# your thoughts on suicide



## Solon

I don't think they go to hell. But I don't believe in the Christian version of heaven or hell. I believe in reincarnation, that souls come back many times.

Suicide is a horrible thing, however, the people that do it honestly feel they have no other way. Were I actually a Christian, I'd be hard pressed to believe in a God that didn't intervene in the first place before the person got so bad they had to take their life.


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## katieandduke

Solon said:


> I don't think they go to hell. But I don't believe in the Christian version of heaven or hell. I believe in reincarnation, that souls come back many times.
> 
> Suicide is a horrible thing, however, the people that do it honestly feel they have no other way. Were I actually a Christian, I'd be hard pressed to believe in a God that didn't intervene in the first place before the person got so bad they had to take their life.


 
It is ashamed to have grown up in a christian school wherefore all you know is christianity.. i have came to the realization i am not religious.. but i am a believer for my own reasons.. still I want to study other religions/beliefs.. 

I get different stories towards suicide and what people believe.but i find it interesting hearing the different sides. and it helps give me answers.. or thoughts to ponder on

thanks for your input!


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## Solon

I grew up a Christian, then I learned the truth. That's what I tell people. 

I think it's great you are interested in learning other religions. It's very eye opening!


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## smrobs

I honestly don't know what I believe when it comes to stuff like that. Sometimes, I see it as a coward's way out, but other times I can understand where that person is coming from.

I knew an older gentleman from a nearby town. He'd had so many little skin cancers cut off of his face and ears over the years that he was horribly deformed. He was leary of going out in public because of the stares and the fact that he often scared little kids. For about the last 2 years of his life, he refused to even leave his house; his son would bring him groceries and run all his errands for him. I guess one day he had had enough and ended his life. This guy was one of the sweetest, most honorable men you could ever hope to meet, a true gentleman. I don't believe that he would go to hell for making a choice like that. You know, people always say that God would never put us through more than we can withstand? Well, I don't think God has much to do with what we go through and whether or not we can stand it. I think it is more the luck of the draw. In the words of Forrest Gump "**** happens". Just sometimes, a whole lot of **** happens to one person and they end up buried.


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## katieandduke

Solon said:


> I grew up a Christian, then I learned the truth. That's what I tell people.
> 
> I think it's great you are interested in learning other religions. It's very eye opening!


 
how'd you learn the truth? like through friends? research?

I've learned never just shut your mind off to one belief.. even if you do not agree be willing to learn about things. and if you dont agree then you dont agree. oneday we will all know the answers and what is right..


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## Solon

Through breaking away with what the preachers were teaching and researching on my own. I spent over two years discovering that almost everything I learned at Church was a lie. From the religious holidays that so many christians even now do not know were built upon Pagan ones to the phony healings that so many preachers claim to be able to do. You'd be amazed at how much christianity took from Pagan beliefs.

I studied various world religions, took a couple of college courses. Did a lot of reading and online research. Talked to people that followed varoius religions. Talked to people that walked away from christianity.

I felt completely betrayed by the christian religion.


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## katieandduke

I see where you are coming from.. 

People say soo many times what you said .. oh its a cowards way out.. I question their belief, saying well if you had a choice to kill yourself or your kid/brother/parents.etc.. what would you choose.. i mean there are many types of suicide but some people make it out to be well you kill yourself you go to hell, end of story.. and i just dont belive that.. 

Some people are in such excruciating pain day in and day out that they feel that is the only way to end the pain. I do ask myself well why not go to somebody? get help? anything? ... but then i look back and realize on past experiences some honestly feel like there is noone there.. no matter how much you show they care its like something tells them they are lying..

In reference to when you talked about God not having a part in what we deal with. I have also asked myself if God never gives us more than we can handle then why would someone get pushed past their limit to the point of suicide? 

so many questions... not enough understandable answers/reasons.. lol


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## katieandduke

Hmm.. That makes me want to think about taking a college course on religion.. Very interesting... *researching right now* lol... ah! iv gotten off the topic i was researching lol dadgumet lol


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## Solon

I think it takes a hell of a lot of courage to kill yourself. Your body's instinct is survival so doing something that purposely goes against that presents some serious conflicting drama in your head. However, some things are just so bad, that you can push yourself past that and be able to do it.

Your point is right on about what God gives people that they can handle. I questioned that for years as I seen friends and family go through horrendous things.


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## Solon

katieandduke said:


> Hmm.. That makes me want to think about taking a college course on religion.. Very interesting... *researching right now* lol... ah! iv gotten off the topic i was researching lol dadgumet lol


You'll find that things like suicide are usually covered in these classes because what happens to the soul is a key element in many religions.


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## Zeke

I willingly went to church when I was younger, though my parents did not. Not long after going I simply realized I didn't agree with the teachings and began to find the whole thing silly (not trying to be offensive in any way, just my personal experience with the church I attended). It did help me in a few ways through a rough patch but I would not consider myself a christian. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that for as long as I can remember I have just assumed we were reincarnated. I think "truth" should be entirely based on your own opinions. 

As for the suicide issue and the fact I don't often think about heaven and hell even being options after death I would say I do not think those who end it are condemned. I'd like to think they'd follow the path much like a buddhist would in their reincarnation, most likely getting "downgraded" in their next life as a lesson to become a better soul.


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## katieandduke

Solon said:


> I think it takes a hell of a lot of courage to kill yourself. Your body's instinct is survival so doing something that purposely goes against that presents some serious conflicting drama in your head. However, some things are just so bad, that you can push yourself past that and be able to do it.
> 
> Your point is right on about what God gives people that they can handle. I questioned that for years as I seen friends and family go through horrendous things.


 
1st part- I completely agree.. there is a line between when you think about doing it, when you are seconds away from committing suicide, and when you really do it... I agree, those people are courageous. I mean if they are at that bad of a point in their life that means they made it through some pretty hard situations in my opinion.. 

2nd part- I have seen it too.. I have seen families be tore apart from homicide,suicide,and etc.. And most people/ families make it through it.. but then there is the few occassions where they didnt. And it is just things that I ponder on wondering why would some live through things then others not..


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## Solon

I think the things that led a person to commit suicide aren't left behind when they reincarnate. I think they can follow a person until the person gets strong enough to confront the issues. I don't think that applies to people who commit suicide because of ailing health though - I'm talking about healthy people.

My state was one of the first to do assisted suicides. There was a huge outcry over it. I thought, WTH, you'd rather see your loved ones die slowly and in pain instead of giving them a choice with their own life. It's a selfish gesture on the part of loved ones.


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## Solon

Why some give up and some don't - sometimes your soul is so broken with grief that it just can't go on anymore.


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## smrobs

I was and still am a big fan of Dr. Kevorkian. Euthanization is acceptable for animals, why should people be made to suffer a crueler fate than our beasts of burden?


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## Solon

Exactly! If you see the people that want to do it trying to beg their family to let them go with dignity - and instead have their families deem them as mentally unable to make the decision. It's sickening.


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## Zeke

I can't say I would advocate Dr. Kevorkian...but I certainly wouldn't have wanted him to be forced out of business. If someone is an adult and legitimately wants to be put down...that's their choice.


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## katieandduke

Zeke said:


> I willingly went to church when I was younger, though my parents did not. Not long after going I simply realized I didn't agree with the teachings and began to find the whole thing silly (not trying to be offensive in any way, just my personal experience with the church I attended). It did help me in a few ways through a rough patch but I would not consider myself a christian. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that for as long as I can remember I have just assumed we were reincarnated. I think "truth" should be entirely based on your own opinions.
> 
> As for the suicide issue and the fact I don't often think about heaven and hell even being options after death I would say I do not think those who end it are condemned. I'd like to think they'd follow the path much like a buddhist would in their reincarnation, most likely getting "downgraded" in their next life as a lesson to become a better soul.


 
I grew up in a baptist church.. then went to a christian school... It helped me and also hendered/pushed me away.. You can NOT drown a person in beliefs everyday and say that is the ONLY way.. I am a believer in God.. I do not belong to a denomination nor go to church.. But my belief in God still stands and is probably stronger then most christians that attend church regularly..

There shouldnt be any offense taken on this thread... just to clarify to everyone.. I made this so people could express their feelings about suicide.. if you want to add religious views in there too that's fine. I am more than willing to hear other people's opinions.. if anyone gets offended then just leave the thread.. lol..

good point about the suicide!


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## Solon

Sometimes they need assistance to do it right. So they get the right dosage and don't end up making it worse. So, the Dr. Kevorkians of the world are necessary.


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## Solon

katie - you had brought God up in your original post so I assumed this was also a religious discussion.


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## Spastic_Dove

I always have to laugh when someone says it's the 'cowards way out'. I don't believe that could be further than the truth. Of course it takes courage to get through whatever has gotten you to that point. But people do not just wake up one day and decide they are going to kill themselves. Courage has gotten them so far and they need help for the rest. They have no tools left in their toolbox to deal with life.

In February, I was in a 72 hour suicide crisis center. My entire life I have dealt with depression issues and suicide had been a fleeting thought. In February though I can tell you I was someone else. The most courageous thing I did was check myself into the ER but I can tell you that had I have followed through with it, it would not have been because I was a coward or because I wanted to die. Instead it would have been because I wanted to not feel the way I was feeling. Unless you have been to that point it is very difficult to comprehend the thoughts and emotions that you go through as well as what it feels like to get to that point.

As far as heaven and hell, I don't believe in it in the literal sense. I do not believe someone who kills themselves will burn in an eternal fire. Luke says "blessed are those who weep for they shall laugh". This is the point where I believe in reincarnation and I lose faith in an omnipotent God.


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## katieandduke

smrobs said:


> I was and still am a big fan of Dr. Kevorkian. Euthanization is acceptable for animals, why should people be made to suffer a crueler fate than our beasts of burden?


 
I see where you are coming from..

In my opinion, when you take someone off of life support isnt that also ending their life? so if a person decides for themselves the pain is too much then they have the right to do what they please im medical situations.


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## Zeke

I definitely think you have a point katie, "drowning" someone in beliefs and not acknowledging others is no way to help someone form their own idea about the world. I'm happy you have found a way to worship that truly works for you, I know so many Christians that get stuck in following someone else's beliefs in a way...

Way to totally point out people can leave if they get offended by the way! So many people forget that. I just know religion can be touchy and I called my experience silly.


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## katieandduke

Solon said:


> katie - you had brought God up in your original post so I assumed this was also a religious discussion.


 
oh haha.. i did? lol.. oh yeah.. *hits head* duh i did.. lol.. 

ok well discuss away! lol.. i am interested to hear opinions about both..


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## Spastic_Dove

Oh, and as far as DNRs, Euthanasia for terminally ill patients, etc I am also fully supportive. Brings up an interesting point similar to what I have read about with lethal injection -- It goes against the Hippocratic Oath the doctors need, but we need the doctors to make sure it is safe and painless.


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## katieandduke

Spastic_Dove said:


> I always have to laugh when someone says it's the 'cowards way out'. I don't believe that could be further than the truth. Of course it takes courage to get through whatever has gotten you to that point. But people do not just wake up one day and decide they are going to kill themselves. Courage has gotten them so far and they need help for the rest. They have no tools left in their toolbox to deal with life.
> 
> In February, I was in a 72 hour suicide crisis center. My entire life I have dealt with depression issues and suicide had been a fleeting thought. In February though I can tell you I was someone else. The most courageous thing I did was check myself into the ER but I can tell you that had I have followed through with it, it would not have been because I was a coward or because I wanted to die. Instead it would have been because I wanted to not feel the way I was feeling. Unless you have been to that point it is very difficult to comprehend the thoughts and emotions that you go through as well as what it feels like to get to that point.
> 
> As far as heaven and hell, I don't believe in it in the literal sense. I do not believe someone who kills themselves will burn in an eternal fire. Luke says "blessed are those who weep for they shall laugh". This is the point where I believe in reincarnation and I lose faith in an omnipotent God.


 
You took a big and brave step doing what you did. congrats. 

I am one of the people who can comprehend how you felt..Not getting into my experiences, but I do know what is it like. Everybody is different.. some just dont know why they feel the way they do, others are in pain, some just think life cant get better, some think noone cares, etc. 


Thanks for your input about suicide and your personal experience


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## Spastic_Dove

Yep, good point katie. 
It's important to remember about depression and feelings of suicide. Chronic issues are very different from episodic issues and have to be handled differently. 

IE: Depression because you have a disorder and imbalance vs Depression over a breakup/death/divorce, etc. 

Seems like a no brainer, but it kind of gives you a look into how the individual may think differently.


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## katieandduke

Zeke said:


> I definitely think you have a point katie, "drowning" someone in beliefs and not acknowledging others is no way to help someone form their own idea about the world. I'm happy you have found a way to worship that truly works for you, I know so many Christians that get stuck in following someone else's beliefs in a way...
> 
> Way to totally point out people can leave if they get offended by the way! So many people forget that. I just know religion can be touchy and I called my experience silly.


 
I do too.. so many friends i have seen leave school, go to college and their belief is ripped apart.. if you dont know things about other religions how can you defend what you believe? you must research outside of class about your beliefs and the beliefs of others.

Well I understand there are many young people on here that can let their mouths run when it is not necessary. and not just young people... adults too.. but if you dont agree, then state your opinions respectfully or just don't even bother because noone will take you seriously.. or at least i wont.. lol


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## katieandduke

Spastic_Dove said:


> Yep, good point katie.
> It's important to remember about depression and feelings of suicide. Chronic issues are very different from episodic issues and have to be handled differently.
> 
> IE: Depression because you have a disorder and imbalance vs Depression over a breakup/death/divorce, etc.
> 
> Seems like a no brainer, but it kind of gives you a look into how the individual may think differently.


I agree.. 

for example, teens could be depressed over; pain,no friends,sexuality,hormones,abuse, and so forth.. yet an adult may be depressed because of financial woes,sickness,family issues, and so forth.. every person is different and must be helped differently.. and there is the people that feel and believe they can not be helped but i still feel that just maybe someone could help them..


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## smrobs

There are so many things that people are "taught" will send them directly to hell; suicide, homosexuality, murder, greed (and whatever else is listed in the 7 deadly sins). I don't believe there is any set action that will automatically curse your soul to burn forever, I think it is more to do with intent and the reasoning behind it. Whether you make one bad choice and truly regret it or whether you continually make the same bad choice over and over with malicious intent determines what happens to you in the end. I also don't believe that any sin can be forgiven (contradictory huh?:?). I have seen some of the horrible things that humans can do to each other but the one that is completely unfathomable to me is stealing the innocence of a child. Some of the things I have seen would make your blood curdle and the most ironic thing is that those guys are generally the most religious and the most polite to adults. My only thought is that if people like that are going to be in heaven, then I don't want to go.

Anyway, sorry, I'm rambling LOL. I can't understand the reasoning behind suicide because I have never been in that situation, but I really don't believe that a loving God would punish someone for acting in the only way they felt they were able when they were pushed past their limits.


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## Solon

I remember a preacher saying once that even the worst criminal on his deathbed could ask for forgiveness and all would be well.

I said, "well why would anyone spend their life being good all the time if they could just say 'I'm sorry' on their deathbed".

He just got mad and wouldn't give me answer. :twisted:


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## katieandduke

smrobs said:


> There are so many things that people are "taught" will send them directly to hell; suicide, homosexuality, murder, greed (and whatever else is listed in the 7 deadly sins). I don't believe there is any set action that will automatically curse your soul to burn forever, I think it is more to do with intent and the reasoning behind it. Whether you make one bad choice and truly regret it or whether you continually make the same bad choice over and over with malicious intent determines what happens to you in the end. I also don't believe that any sin can be forgiven (contradictory huh?:?). I have seen some of the horrible things that humans can do to each other but the one that is completely unfathomable to me is stealing the innocence of a child. Some of the things I have seen would make your blood curdle and the most ironic thing is that those guys are generally the most religious and the most polite to adults. My only thought is that if people like that are going to be in heaven, then I don't want to go.
> 
> Anyway, sorry, I'm rambling LOL. I can't understand the reasoning behind suicide because I have never been in that situation, but I really don't believe that a loving God would punish someone for acting in the only way they felt they were able when they were pushed past their limits.


haha thats ok! people are allowed to ramble here! lol.. i catch myself doing it then stop and shorten my paragraphs lol.. But i understand what you are saying.. There is some sins that I think should just not be forgivable, I wonder how could God forgive somebody for taking someone's life.. 

and good point.. If you feel that is your only way out why would God make you burn in hell for taking the only option you had..


What really set me back with religion and decide to not follow a denomination is when my Bible teacher basically comdemned people that committed suicide saying it is selfish... a Bible teacher now.. and how they can not go to heaven.. that was like three days after something happened to my family and that was the one words that made me decide i will no longer listen to this so called bible teacher.. since it was only HIS opinions and noone else's.. it wasnt right at all..


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## katieandduke

Solon said:


> I remember a preacher saying once that even the worst criminal on his deathbed could ask for forgiveness and all would be well.
> 
> I said, "well why would anyone spend their life being good all the time if they could just say 'I'm sorry' on their deathbed".
> 
> He just got mad and wouldn't give me answer. :twisted:


That's a good way to look at it..

It seems whenever you ask a person of religious background(preacher,bible teacher) a question that questions them strongly they just shut you off.. to me it seems like they can not give a straight fact.. or even an opinion that would not contradict their religious views.


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## Solon

The first time I questioned christianity was when I was in the 5th grade and my sunday school teacher told me animals didn't go to heaven. I went home screaming to my mom that my beloved horse Duke wouldn't be in heaven when he died. My Mom stormed the church and then we no longer went there.


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## katieandduke

I'm quite happy I am actually getting some responses on this thread!

I figured most people wouldnt give their opinions fearing what people would say or think.. Thank goodness there is people in this world that still stand up for what they believe and share it!


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## katieandduke

Solon said:


> The first time I questioned christianity was when I was in the 5th grade and my sunday school teacher told me animals didn't go to heaven. I went home screaming to my mom that my beloved horse Duke wouldn't be in heaven when he died. My Mom stormed the church and then we no longer went there.


 
Well that was a dumb preacher in my opinion...lol..

your horse's name is my current horse's name..haha!


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## Solon

I know - every time I see your name it brings back very very very happy memories for me.


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## Solon

katieandduke said:


> I'm quite happy I am actually getting some responses on this thread!
> 
> I figured most people wouldnt give their opinions fearing what people would say or think.. Thank goodness there is people in this world that still stand up for what they believe and share it!


I'm pretty sure most people on this forum aren't too worried to say what they think!! It's a good topic.


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## katieandduke

Solon said:


> I know - every time I see your name it brings back very very very happy memories for me.


 
aww =] its those memories you share with a special animal that will never be forgotten.. its amazing i can remember the first time i saw duke to the present... every little memory and detail i know and yet i cant even remember my parent's birthday O.O lol.. im a bad daughter hahaha


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## katieandduke

Solon said:


> I'm pretty sure most people on this forum aren't too worried to say what they think!! It's a good topic.


 
ok well maybe not this forum.. this one is quite nicer than other forums i am on.. i mean dang.. someone expresses thier thoughts and BAM! instinct accusations are made


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## smrobs

I am also of the opinion that if my beloved old friend Buck and my best pal Spot aren't in heaven, then I don't wanna go.


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## Solon

I'll say this, horses have literally saved my life more than once. My Duke was one of those horses. And now my Solon is that way for me. 

Horses are great therapists!


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## katieandduke

smrobs said:


> I am also of the opinion that if my beloved old friend Buck and my best pal Spot aren't in heaven, then I don't wanna go.


 
same here! but i believe my baby will be there waiting for me to ride him off into the heavens! i love that horse forever, even after death


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## katieandduke

Solon said:


> I'll say this, horses have literally saved my life more than once. My Duke was one of those horses. And now my Solon is that way for me.
> 
> Horses are great therapists!


 
I can say I completely relate...

For many months, Duke was the reason I lived.. he was the thing that kept me going.. It seemed like I knew he loves me and that is all I cared about was his love.. I mean you can tell.. You put me on him and we are a perfectly matched team.. with out disagreements(backing up for one lol) but you put someone else on him and im NOT around him.. the instructor that uses him says he is so bad and bucks and turns into a different horse.. that just proves the bond people share with their horse.. I wouldnt trade that feeling of love for anything, not a guy, or anything else.. cause nothing could ever compare


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## whitetrashwarmblood

Solon said:


> I'll say this, horses have literally saved my life more than once.



So true.
I can honestly say, I don't know where I'd be without Athena.

For someone who has pretty much self-diagnosed themselves with PMDD, I can understand what it's like. For one to two weeks out of the month, I get hit with depression hard, and I've thought about things that at any other time of the month I would never even consider. (And yes, I'm going to the doc about this. :?)

I don't think someone would go to hell because they committed suicide. I think someone would go to hell for rape, murder, etc. I also think it's complete crap that if the worse criminal asked for forgiveness on his/her deathbed that he/she would get into heaven. Forgiveness my butt, spend eternity in hell!


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## HowClever

As someone who has been in the position where suicide felt like the only solution, I can not call it the coward's way out. When I hit that place, I honestly believed that the people around me would have been far better off without me. I thought that ending my life was the best thing for my friends and family, because then they wouldn't have had to put up with me. The only thing that stopped me and made me realise I had other options was my now fiance showing up at my house and dragging me out and doctoring me. I am diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder so I have a lot of issues with coping with everyday stresses. 

It does take a lot of strength to pull yourself out of a place like that. And I can guarantee that when you are in that place and you recall being told that suicide is the coward's way out, it doesn't make you feel like fighting. In fact, it's another hit to your strength. 

At least thats my take. Sorry if it didn't make a lot of sense.


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## tinyliny

*suicide*

Never forget that the person who goes to hell, where suicide is concerned, is the person left behind; the mother, brother , sister, lover , child . ..
Would you wish HELL upon anyone you cared about?

Sorry, but I have a pretty closed mind regarding suicide.


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## AlexS

Wow, there is a lot of honesty in this thread, and some posts that I don't agree with like the one above me, however it is still honest, but I can see the point, that the family goes through hell. 

Let me say clearly at first that I don't believe, and am athiest, this is not the same as saying that I am anti God, it is just not for me, and I respect those who believe. 

My feelings are that suicide comes down to 2 points, either you are so sick and in so much pain that you can not continue, or that you have mental health issues. The first is obvious and needs no explaination, the second is really complicated, as often the mental health issue feels normal and does not need treatment, when this is the case, and even with treatment it takes a long long time to find the right answer. 

This might seem controversial to those affected by it, but if it is a mental health issue, then you are not in the right mind to make a decision about suicide. 


I feel terrible that our society leaves fragile people alone unless help is sought. I feel terrible that there was a knee jerk reaction to instituations being closed because they were such a mess, rather than reforming them, leaving the most fragile people living on the streets. There is something very wrong with us as a society.


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## sandy2u1

> This might seem controversial to those affected by it, but if it is a mental health issue, then you are not in the right mind to make a decision about suicide.



Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/general-o...r-thoughts-suicide-65587/page5/#ixzz0RbQHlVQ5
I completely agree with this statement. I also do not believe that it takes courage to commit suicide. Courage is dealing with what you are most afraid of. When a person commits suicide, I believe it is because the fear of the pain that they are dealing with in their lives outweighs the fear of death. Those that seek help are the courageous ones. 

I am reminded of my favorite quote:
Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway-John Wayne

I think it pertains to life as well. I can think of one thing that could happen in my life that would be so tragic that it would be easier for me to kill myself than live another day. If God forbid, this thing happened to me, then I would not be courageous for committing suicide....I would be (in my mind at least) choosing the path that is easier. 

I do believe in God. I don't think anything is ever as black and white as saying someone will go to hell for committing suicide, though. 



​


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## cakemom

The most courageous thing one can do is to face the fears, concerns and strife causing them to WANT to commit suicide and carry on with living. I know the pain of depression, physical pain and loss....and this is still my belief. 
As far as it being a sin, by teaching it's what i was taught. I don't know at this point in my life how I feel about it. I do feel it a selfish, cowardice way to solve a problem and I don't mean that in a dirogatory fashion, it's just my honest opinion. 
And yes, hell is what those that are left face, been there too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## katieandduke

HowClever said:


> As someone who has been in the position where suicide felt like the only solution, I can not call it the coward's way out. When I hit that place, I honestly believed that the people around me would have been far better off without me. I thought that ending my life was the best thing for my friends and family, because then they wouldn't have had to put up with me. The only thing that stopped me and made me realise I had other options was my now fiance showing up at my house and dragging me out and doctoring me. I am diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder so I have a lot of issues with coping with everyday stresses.
> 
> It does take a lot of strength to pull yourself out of a place like that. And I can guarantee that when you are in that place and you recall being told that suicide is the coward's way out, it doesn't make you feel like fighting. In fact, it's another hit to your strength.
> 
> At least thats my take. Sorry if it didn't make a lot of sense.


 
I say it made alot of sense! Thanks for your opinions!


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## katieandduke

tinyliny said:


> Never forget that the person who goes to hell, where suicide is concerned, is the person left behind; the mother, brother , sister, lover , child . ..
> Would you wish HELL upon anyone you cared about?
> 
> Sorry, but I have a pretty closed mind regarding suicide.


 
I'm sorry but I did not understand that clearly.. could be because it's too early in the morning. haha..


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## katieandduke

sandy2u1 said:


> Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/general-o...r-thoughts-suicide-65587/page5/#ixzz0RbQHlVQ5
> I completely agree with this statement. I also do not believe that it takes courage to commit suicide. Courage is dealing with what you are most afraid of. When a person commits suicide, I believe it is because the fear of the pain that they are dealing with in their lives outweighs the fear of death. Those that seek help are the courageous ones. ​
> I am reminded of my favorite quote:
> Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway-John Wayne​
> I think it pertains to life as well. I can think of one thing that could happen in my life that would be so tragic that it would be easier for me to kill myself than live another day. If God forbid, this thing happened to me, then I would not be courageous for committing suicide....I would be (in my mind at least) choosing the path that is easier. ​
> I do believe in God. I don't think anything is ever as black and white as saying someone will go to hell for committing suicide, though.​


I understand what you are saying. 

For some people, they have kept going for so long that they feel that their ONLY option is suicide.. yet, suicide is never the only option; people do feel like it is the end and there is nowhere else to go.. Some are in so much pain that killing themselves is the only way to get away from it, and for some it may be.. i mean when pain medicines and help doesnt help then some people may feel suicide is their last option.. which in my opinion could be also a hard way out, not an easy way for some.. I do get where you are saying it is the easy way out.. But i think that if you are to the point of killing yourself and there is nothing else that can be done then i feel it takes a brave person to go through with committing suicide. That's just one of my opinions though


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## Jake and Dai

katieandduke said:


> I'm sorry but I did not understand that clearly.. could be because it's too early in the morning. haha..


I think what tinyliny is saying Katie is that when someone commits suicide, the loved ones (even if that person doesn't believe they are loved) who are left behind have to deal with the sheer hell of losing someone forever and the guilt that they might have done more to prevent it.


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## corinowalk

Heres something else to think about. My brother passed away 3 years ago of an accidental overdose. He didn't intend to kill himself, but he did. How does that figure? My grandfather smoked until the day he died of lung cancer. He didn't intend to kill himself, but he did. Thats the trouble with topics like this...so much gray area!


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## shesinthebarn

I believe that if you take your own life, you have a mental illness. Mental illness is a very real thing, like being diabetic or having any other ailment. 

I am a Christian, but don't subscribe to any one sect. I do believe that God loves all his children and he would not punish them for being sick.


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## TaMMa89

At first, I'm Christian and like I've mentioned earlier in some topic, I'm in faith at some stage but at some other stage I'm not. It's very intuitive thing and hard to explain verbally. I've been taught in Evangelical Lutheran Christianity and know the Bible somehow, tho I haven't read it from a cover to a cover. 

That affects on my views toward suicide too. Even I admit things like that are kind of "loose" to me, my religious views affect on them at some point but at the other point these things are separate from my religious part.

Personally, I've caught that the Bible condemns suicide but on the other hand, if God knows every day and the end of our life beforehand, what if that's the way He's decided things have to go? What if He's decided the way the person have to go is a suicide? I don't know, don't know the Bible well enough so I'm a bit hesitant over the things but I do know it isn't my job to send people in the hell. That was my religious part.

My loose, rational and secular part says suicide is very ultimate decision to do. I don't think it's a chicken thing but nor require special courage. I think normal person has very strong instict to survive and stay alive (I for example know I'd do _anything_ to survive and save my life if I had to do the decision about it all of sudden - sure I can sit here and think I wouldn't do this or that because it's for example against my morals but if something really happened, I believe my instict would take over and I'd do what had to do). I also belive that when you've lost that instict, the power like depression or mental illness behind losing it has to be very strong and make you totally stagnant mentally. Then escaping away from all that bad and committing suicide is the only way for you in your dead end. For me that means that every person who's ended up to reach that point has lost a very needful part of his or her totality and isn't responsible over the thing that happened - the suicide. Sure I think suicide is bad thing and every suicide means a lost life but the arguments I brought up are why I don't condemn those who've ended up to do that decision - I just hope all the candidates would receive help early enough so things like that wouldn't happen - but the sad truth is that every candidate doesn't receive help and there are people who do commit suicide.

I think there aren't huge discordances between my religious and secular thoughts over suicide. I'd never ever to say a suicidal person that he's going to the hell, I'm sure it wouldn't help him to win the battle against losing his zest for life.

Just my 2 cents . Hope you caught the point even my post seems to be a bit rambling too.


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## WickedNag

katieandduke said:


> I am looking for opinions on do you think a person who commits suicide goes to hell? I know that the only person that can answer this correctly is God. but i would like to know people's thoughts.. if you have verses to back your opinions up feel free to post that too..
> 
> 
> thank you for any thoughts given!


IF a person commits suicide do you believe they are mentally healthy? I do not... and I don't think you will go to hell anymore from being mentally unhealthy than if you are physically unhealthy. So IMHO no you do not go to hell for committing suicide.


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## AlexS

Sorry to hear about your brother Cori!


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## rraylutz210

shesinthebarn said:


> I believe that if you take your own life, you have a mental illness. Mental illness is a very real thing, like being diabetic or having any other ailment.
> 
> I am a Christian, but don't subscribe to any one sect. I do believe that God loves all his children and he would not punish them for being sick.


So I'm not trying to be mean just trying to understand, if god does not want to punish his children for being sick why does he banish them to hell for their suicide?

I am atheist and believe that if religion is what makes certain individuals happy and live a better life then I have no right to criticize them. Suicide is a very gray area. There are many different aspects that could play into it such as accidental and yes illness. And if it is illness that causes them to do it, why did their god allow them to reach that point? Why not intervene in there wondrous miracles to save their life? Or is every child that has an illness and reaches that point doomed for hell?

However there are the sane that commit suicide but again a gray area. What is determined as being mentally sane exactly? It does not take a person with an illness or ailment to realize that their life is meaningless. 

After all what are we are working so hard for everyday, busting our corporate butts in order for life to reach a certain point. But it never will, sure you may reach that point but you will work again to reach another. Life never plateaus, and for some life is not worth finding out. They have seen all that they need to see in this life and are content with it.

For example, the 82 year old women who's passion in life is horses. She can no longer walk, she cannot leave her home because she is hooked up on oxygen and constant IV and many other things. She is slowing withering away as old age claims her. The doctors give her another full year to live. Would you want to live it? Suffering everyday? So that the family and friends that you have spent your entire life with can cling on to your every painful breath? Personally when I reach that age, I will want to die. Is this suicide? Would I go to hell if there was such a place? and why, when I am clearly in pain and some individuals god will not claim me but rather let me sit in agony?

I do not say that suicide is justified or right, but is it a topic in which it needs to be more gray then just be black and white. Open your mind, explore new angles. Make your own decisions on your morals and beliefs. No one but yourself can decide these for you, after all they are what defines you and make you unique.


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## Solon

I don't believe that only mentally unstable people commit suicide. Maybe the majority, but certainly not all.


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## Jake and Dai

Solon said:


> I don't believe that only mentally unstable people commit suicide. Maybe the majority, but certainly not all.


I want to agree with you Solon but I'm not sure because how does anyone define what is mentally stable? 

But I certainly don't believe the only severely mentally unstable commit suicide.

So...in a strange way I just made up my mind and I do agree with you!

Has anyone seen the documentary _The Bridge_? *Very* chilling but interesting in that it gave a bit of insight in to why some have chosen to take their lives. Some were certainly diagnosed with mental illness but if I remember correctly...not all.


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## TaMMa89

I believe that something has gone wrong if the person commits suicide. May it isn't any determined mental illness tho I believe for example depression plays a big role in many cases. I still don't believe that person who has everything ok in his life will wake up some morning and then just decide to commit suicide (that isn't directed straight to any user comment here, just my general thoughts when you started to talk about mental illness and suicide ).

You views are interesting to read, keep posting em'.

Also I'm sorry for your brother, Corino.


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## katieandduke

Jake and Dai said:


> I think what tinyliny is saying Katie is that when someone commits suicide, the loved ones (even if that person doesn't believe they are loved) who are left behind have to deal with the sheer hell of losing someone forever and the guilt that they might have done more to prevent it.


 
I understand now, thank you!


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## katieandduke

corinowalk said:


> Heres something else to think about. My brother passed away 3 years ago of an accidental overdose. He didn't intend to kill himself, but he did. How does that figure? My grandfather smoked until the day he died of lung cancer. He didn't intend to kill himself, but he did. Thats the trouble with topics like this...so much gray area!


 
Good point!! Way too much gray area!


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## katieandduke

shesinthebarn said:


> I believe that if you take your own life, you have a mental illness. Mental illness is a very real thing, like being diabetic or having any other ailment.
> 
> I am a Christian, but don't subscribe to any one sect. I do believe that God loves all his children and he would not punish them for being sick.


 
That is a good way to look at it.. 

Thanks for your input!


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## katieandduke

TaMMa89 said:


> At first, I'm Christian and like I've mentioned earlier in some topic, I'm in faith at some stage but at some other stage I'm not. It's very intuitive thing and hard to explain verbally. I've been taught in Evangelical Lutheran Christianity and know the Bible somehow, tho I haven't read it from a cover to a cover.
> 
> That affects on my views toward suicide too. Even I admit things like that are kind of "loose" to me, my religious views affect on them at some point but at the other point these things are separate from my religious part.
> 
> Personally, I've caught that the Bible condemns suicide but on the other hand, if God knows every day and the end of our life beforehand, what if that's the way He's decided things have to go? What if He's decided the way the person have to go is a suicide? I don't know, don't know the Bible well enough so I'm a bit hesitant over the things but I do know it isn't my job to send people in the hell. That was my religious part.
> 
> My loose, rational and secular part says suicide is very ultimate decision to do. I don't think it's a chicken thing but nor require special courage. I think normal person has very strong instict to survive and stay alive (I for example know I'd do _anything_ to survive and save my life if I had to do the decision about it all of sudden - sure I can sit here and think I wouldn't do this or that because it's for example against my morals but if something really happened, I believe my instict would take over and I'd do what had to do). I also belive that when you've lost that instict, the power like depression or mental illness behind losing it has to be very strong and make you totally stagnant mentally. Then escaping away from all that bad and committing suicide is the only way for you in your dead end. For me that means that every person who's ended up to reach that point has lost a very needful part of his or her totality and isn't responsible over the thing that happened - the suicide. Sure I think suicide is bad thing and every suicide means a lost life but the arguments I brought up are why I don't condemn those who've ended up to do that decision - I just hope all the candidates would receive help early enough so things like that wouldn't happen - but the sad truth is that every candidate doesn't receive help and there are people who do commit suicide.
> 
> I think there aren't huge discordances between my religious and secular thoughts over suicide. I'd never ever to say a suicidal person that he's going to the hell, I'm sure it wouldn't help him to win the battle against losing his zest for life.
> 
> Just my 2 cents . Hope you caught the point even my post seems to be a bit rambling too.


I did catch it and thanks for your opinions!

To me, it seems if we ramble then what we say may be the truth that is in our mind.. instead of really thinking through what we are going to say and shaping it to sound better.. sometimes the more rambling post is the most informative.. =] or to me at least lol


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## katieandduke

WickedNag said:


> IF a person commits suicide do you believe they are mentally healthy? I do not... and I don't think you will go to hell anymore from being mentally unhealthy than if you are physically unhealthy. So IMHO no you do not go to hell for committing suicide.


 
Good point and opinion..




For some reason I had never looked at suicide as a mental health issue.. Well, I kind of did because depression deals with mental health but never thought of it that way. I have only known a person to experience physical pain.. Yes, that person probably had depression also.. But it is hard to think about it because it seems everytime I end up with more questions that cant simply be answered by just reading the internet.. The only person that can answer why a person committed suicide is the person that did..and by then it is too late


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## katieandduke

Solon said:


> I don't believe that only mentally unstable people commit suicide. Maybe the majority, but certainly not all.


 
I agree, physically unstable people do also.

When I think about it though.. I think it always does go back to either physically or mentally unstable people.. I mean if you if you commit suicide over finances,family issues,depression, etc.. Isn't all that tied to mental issue? Maybe not "issue" but I mean it what you think which means it is what is in your mind which means it is mental.. Right? or do I even make sense.. lol.. idk.. Then physical problems is common sense.. But give any more ideas that dont deal with physical or mental problems.. =]


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## katieandduke

Jake and Dai said:


> I want to agree with you Solon but I'm not sure because how does anyone define what is mentally stable?
> 
> But I certainly don't believe the only severely mentally unstable commit suicide.
> 
> So...in a strange way I just made up my mind and I do agree with you!
> 
> Has anyone seen the documentary _The Bridge_? *Very* chilling but interesting in that it gave a bit of insight in to why some have chosen to take their lives. Some were certainly diagnosed with mental illness but if I remember correctly...not all.


 
lol... you changing your mine middle of a post made me laugh.. You sound like me! haha

Hmm.. I will have to look that up! Thanks for telling us about it!


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## Spastic_Dove

what I think of with what Solon said goes back to what I said with episodic depression vs chronic depression. 

I had an uncle who killed himself because he was in debt, going to lose his house, gambling because of it, etc. Before his gambling he was not depressed. No mental health issues(Not chronically depressed). However he was having an episode of depression because of a very specific reason. At the time his thinking was obviously not normal, but I would not call him a mentally unstable person. 

Theres a differance between having a mental disorder and having blurred judgement.


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## katieandduke

Spastic_Dove said:


> what I think of with what Solon said goes back to what I said with episodic depression vs chronic depression.
> 
> I had an uncle who killed himself because he was in debt, going to lose his house, gambling because of it, etc. Before his gambling he was not depressed. No mental health issues(Not chronically depressed). However he was having an episode of depression because of a very specific reason. At the time his thinking was obviously not normal, but I would not call him a mentally unstable person.
> 
> Theres a differance between having a mental disorder and having blurred judgement.


 
Blurred judgement.. Didn't think of it that way.. Thanks! 

What's sad is some situations you can't tell the difference between blurred judgement and mental problems.. Those are the times when you wished or when I wished the people suffering would have seeked help


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## Spastic_Dove

Yeah. It's hard. 

I figure I may as well be wrong and try and help a person when they're not at that point than assume they're not suicidal. 

Especially with teens, I have called parents. Sure, they hate me for awhile. But if you show signs of suicide (Giving away things, loss of interest, withdrawing, etc) or talk about suicide I'm going to give them a name of a hotline and tell someone. 

Blurred judgment or mental disorder the end result is the same so I'll try and get them help


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## shesinthebarn

Spastic_Dove said:


> what I think of with what Solon said goes back to what I said with episodic depression vs chronic depression.
> 
> I had an uncle who killed himself because he was in debt, going to lose his house, gambling because of it, etc. Before his gambling he was not depressed. No mental health issues(Not chronically depressed). However he was having an episode of depression because of a very specific reason. At the time his thinking was obviously not normal, but I would not call him a mentally unstable person.
> 
> Theres a differance between having a mental disorder and having blurred judgement.


I'm so sorry for the loss of your uncle. So sad...
The type of situation you are describing is often called "situational depression". This is still defined as a mental illness. The theory being that there is often chronic self-destructive behaviour and self-deprication involved in the behavious that lead to the situation that is causing the depression. In other words, the situation "causing" the depressive episode(debt and gambling adddiction in the case of your uncle) is in reality a symptom of an underlying mental health issue. 

I can speak from personal experience that non-chronic depressive episodes are still not to be taken lightly. I am being treated for a post-partum mood disorder. It came on about 5 days after my sweet daughter was born. It was like being hit with a hammer. I was bordering on delusional at one point. My amazing midwives almost forced me into treatment and now I feel SO much better. I had NO history of depression before this incident. Post partum depression is a combination hormonal imbalance/situational depression. I honestly thought about suicide for a few days quite seriously. I have so much guilt over it now...but looking back, I was sick. I suppose I still am, but I'm way better than I was.

I guess my point is, not only people with chronic depression think about/commit suicide. There are so many different forms of mental illness, and many people fall through the cracks. I just believe that ANYONE who takes their life is sick - and it's so sad that they didn't seek the help/couldn't get the help they needed.


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## Spastic_Dove

I definitely agree with you and see your point shesinthebarn. Good for you for making an improvement in your post partum depression. 

My point I think was to just kind of show that not everyone who kills themselves is a mentally unstable individual. That they can live a life free of mental illness and something will cause them to have depression and kill themselves. Like I said the end result of suicide is the same in either case so I dont want to say that one is worse than the other but instead to say that 'normal' people can commit suicide or have suicidal thoughts.


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## Solon

shesinthebarn - you're assuming that people who commit suicide didn't try to get help for their depression/issues and that's not always the case. A lot of people that decide to go with suicide are people that have been in treatment for a very long time.


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## shesinthebarn

Solon said:


> shesinthebarn - you're assuming that people who commit suicide didn't try to get help for their depression/issues and that's not always the case. A lot of people that decide to go with suicide are people that have been in treatment for a very long time.


No, that is not my assumption. I didn't make it clear enough I suppose. I know first hand that many who take their own lives have been in treatment, and in fact often fought very hard before they ended their lives. What I should have said is that they didn't get the right sort of treatment, be it the right meds/combination of meds, the right psychiatric treatment and or hospitalization. My mother has worked in the psychiatric field for 30 years and I have volunteered with a local mental health organization for years, so I understand the struggle. A good friend ended their life on my farm when I was a child, after a lengthy battle with an illness in the depression spectrum, which is what motivated my interest in volunteering. Unfortunately, people sometimes give up the fight because their treatment was not enough, or not right for them, or sometimes treatment is not available or not sought. Treating these sorts of illness is often more an art than a science, I just meant that it is unfortunate that they did not get the right sort of help, even if they were seeking all options and fought very hard. I feel this is why time is of the essence when helping a person with a mental illness. The morbidity rate is astoundingly high. I meant no offence.


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## my2geldings

Why are you asking? :think: 

I honestly don't know where you end up. The only ones to know, are the ones who have passed on and see the other side. As you posted I think God is the ultimate one to judge where you should go from there but I do think that suicide is a sin. 
People who choose that way out, are cowards and also mentally ill. For someone to end up wanting to commit suicide instead of working and dealing with your problems, is a bad way to escape without fixing the problem, and it's a very selfish act because you are not considering how the people around you are going to deal with you being gone. However, for someone to see no way out but death, is also a major sign of mental illness.


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## Tennessee

I'm chiming in kind of late here, but I'll still give my two cents.

I will probably be dogged for this, but in my opinion, if you commit suicide, you are a quitter and a coward. I know some of you have been saying that those who commit suicide are very courageous, but I disagree very much. It's the easy way out. A person who was courageous would suck it up and try to make things better. I believe that God puts people through hard times because he knows we can handle them. It's a VERY selfish act, in my opinion. When you put a gun against your head (or whatever method you chose to use to commit suicide) and murder yourself, think of the people you are leaving behind, and the pain and distress they have to go through because you selfishly killed yourself. Suicide is a sin. It is murder. I don't think it is the ultimate sin like quite a few others I know do (Blasphemy is the ultimate sin), but I do believe you are insulting God by destroying the most precious thing he gave to you, life.


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## OffTheTrack

I used to be so black and white on certain topics...but the longer I live the more I realize that there are so many shades of grey. 

I am not Christian so the belief in heaven and hell isnt something I subscribe to...it doesnt make sense to me. I dont understand how I, as a good, kind person will be doomed to hell because I dont believe in your religion and yet an axe murderer can suddenly find God, get forgiveness and go to heaven. 

I think suicide is a horrible thing all around..for the person who contemplates it and/or carries it out and for the ones left behind. Despite some hard times, I feel that the ability to enjoy life is such a wonderful thing...and to be at a point that one wants to end that..so sad. And I have a job where I have to deal with family and friends who have to live with the aftermath of suicide...which is at times so heartwrenching. 

Cowardly way...perhaps...but there are so many factors that I cant really judge.


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## wannahorse22

I think suicide is a horrible thing Why should someone kill themself when God created them in their own special way? I do not see how someone could do it- imagine leaving all your loved ones behind, and how much emotional and mental stress you will put on them. Plus, there are so many opportunities these days to get help. And I dont see how someone couldn't enjoy life (unless in a very bad situation~ but then again, there are many opportunities for help), thats just my opinion on it though 

The following is from bible.com-

*"Do not be a fool--why die before your time?" (Ecclesiastes 7:17b)*

Very few would argue with the fact that suicide is a direct breaking of the Sixth Commandment which is, "You shall not murder." We are not to murder each other _or_ _ourselves_. God created human beings in His image and each of us carries within us the potential to overcome the evil in this world, and to rule and reign with Christ in heavenly places. If we are Christians, we no longer belong to ourselves, but to God. We are overseers of our bodies and our lives (which belong to Him), and we are responsible to guard that which has been entrusted to us. 
Suicide is a grievous sin that seriously hurts both the heart of God, and those who loved the deceased. The pain of losing a loved one who took their own life is not easily healed, and often isn't fully healed until Heaven. Whether you are contemplating suicide or know someone who killed themselves, God wants you to know there is hope and life for you. He is the great Healer and Restorer of what has been lost or stolen.


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## paintsrule

wannahorse22 said:


> I think suicide is a horrible thing Why should someone kill themself when God created them in their own special way? I do not see how someone could do it- imagine leaving all your loved ones behind, and how much emotional and mental stress you will put on them. Plus, there are so many opportunities these days to get help. And I dont see how someone couldn't enjoy life (unless in a very bad situation~ but then again, there are many opportunities for help), thats just my opinion on it though


 Your right, you HAVENT been there. Its such a dark place you dont worry about your loved ones, because most times, you dont think anyone loves you/even wants you around. Its not about the stress on them, its the horrible stress and mental ache/pain in you thats so very consuming you cant think of anything but it or really do anything at all but lie depressed in your own woe. 
Its impossible to enjoy life when you are so down you are going to end your own life. Help seems worthless or scary or weak, unlike the quick fix of just leaving this world that seems to be the only way out of this horrible situation. You feel baited to end your life by the constant hits your mental stability keeps taking from bad things (or what you percieve to be so bad) happening to you.
They say suicide is a permanant fix to a temporary situation but when you are in the clutchs of deep depression bordering on suicide the problems seem ANYTHING but temporary, you cant imagine being happy or even content ever again or that you ever were. This world doesnt seem worth it, it seems like a place of torture you cant wait to get out of enough you would take it in your own hands to do so.
I know, trust me. I've been there. Not actually killed myself (obviously) but I've been close and have had expierences with family members. I understand WHY people do. Its horribly sad, but sometimes seems neccesary to people, and I understand that.
I dont think people who commit sucide are neccesary wrong so much as just done with it all, its ultimatly their life, theirs to end if they JUST CAN'T go on any longer without losing their minds or not being able to get out of bed the next morning from the hurt of it all, theirs to end if they JUST CAN'T take it. I dont think they should go to Hell for that, no way, no how.
"Depression is not a sign of weakness but a sign you've been strong for to long"
I'm not attacking you, I'm just saying its SO different and easier to understand when you've been there.


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## OffTheTrack

"Depression is not a sign of weakness but a sign you've been strong for to long"


Interesting quote


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## paintsrule

OffTheTrack said:


> "Depression is not a sign of weakness but a sign you've been strong for to long"
> 
> 
> Interesting quote


In what way? Do you agree with it?

Im interested what people think, its just something I read somewhere.


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## wannahorse22

paintsrule said:


> Your right, you HAVENT been there. Its such a dark place you dont worry about your loved ones, because most times, you dont think anyone loves you/even wants you around. Its not about the stress on them, its the horrible stress and mental ache/pain in you thats so very consuming you cant think of anything but it or really do anything at all but lie depressed in your own woe.
> Its impossible to enjoy life when you are so down you are going to end your own life. Help seems worthless or scary or weak, unlike the quick fix of just leaving this world that seems to be the only way out of this horrible situation. You feel baited to end your life by the constant hits your mental stability keeps taking from bad things (or what you percieve to be so bad) happening to you.
> They say suicide is a permanant fix to a temporary situation but when you are in the clutchs of deep depression bordering on suicide the problems seem ANYTHING but temporary, you cant imagine being happy or even content ever again or that you ever were. This world doesnt seem worth it, it seems like a place of torture you cant wait to get out of enough you would take it in your own hands to do so.
> I know, trust me. I've been there. Not actually killed myself (obviously) but I've been close and have had expierences with family members. I understand WHY people do. Its horribly sad, but sometimes seems neccesary to people, and I understand that.
> I dont think people who commit sucide are neccesary wrong so much as just done with it all, its ultimatly their life, theirs to end if they JUST CAN'T go on any longer without losing their minds or not being able to get out of bed the next morning from the hurt of it all, theirs to end if they JUST CAN'T take it. I dont think they should go to Hell for that, no way, no how.
> "Depression is not a sign of weakness but a sign you've been strong for to long"
> I'm not attacking you, I'm just saying its SO different and easier to understand when you've been there.


I understand. I have been in depression before (not to that point, but ya know what i mean). I too think that is an interesting quote. It is just very connecting to some things in my life. It explains how when a person holds feelings in too long, and tries to keep it together; sometimes they just break. That is why I think it is so important to just let it out sometimes. Whether you are alone, or talking about it to someone- it really helps healing.

*Ecclesiastes 7:3- Crying is better than laughing. It blotches the face but it scours the heart.*


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## paintsrule

wannahorse22 said:


> I understand. I have been in depression before (not to that point, but ya know what i mean). I too think that is an interesting quote. It is just very connecting to some things in my life. It explains how when a person holds feelings in too long, and tries to keep it together; sometimes they just break. That is why I think it is so important to just let it out sometimes. Whether you are alone, or talking about it to someone- it really helps healing.
> 
> *Ecclesiastes 7:3- Crying is better than laughing. It blotches the face but it scours the heart.*


I agree with you. Crying and talking to someone, anyone can help, or it can make it worse when people still dont seem to care. But overall it can help, if you can take that step and admit it. And me personally, when I go to that dark place, I tend to shut up, not talk and lock myself in my room and not WANT to talk and if certain people approach me I dont mean to but I lash out and get mad or even more upset, I dont know why. I wish more people would let it out not bottle it up and get help, it could really help the sucidal thoughts.
But is there a point where you are just to far gone and nothing can help? I think sometimes that is the case where people take their own life but then on the other hand, hospitals have brought people from very dark places, I've seen it.


----------



## wannahorse22

paintsrule said:


> I agree with you. Crying and talking to someone, anyone can help, or it can make it worse when people still dont seem to care. But overall it can help, if you can take that step and admit it. And me personally, when I go to that dark place, I tend to shut up, not talk and lock myself in my room and not WANT to talk and if certain people approach me I dont mean to but I lash out and get mad or even more upset, I dont know why. I wish more people would let it out not bottle it up and get help, it could really help the sucidal thoughts.
> *But is there a point where you are just to far gone and nothing can help?* I think sometimes that is the case where people take their own life but then on the other hand, hospitals have brought people from very dark places, I've seen it.


This is probably a question that will get some opinionated answers. For me, there is always a way. I am a believer in God. So I do ahve faith that he can pull anyone out of any situation. It might take a miracle- but there is always a way. Just my belief.

I feel like I am thinking very out-of-the-box. I am only 14...this is some hardcore thinking.:lol:


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## Solon

wannahorse22 said:


> I understand. I have been in depression before (not to that point, but ya know what i mean).
> 
> *Ecclesiastes 7:3- Crying is better than laughing. It blotches the face but it scours the heart.*


Then you *don't know*. If you have not been to that edge staring into the abyss. You do not know.

Crying can only go so far for a person who's broken. For those people they've exhausted everything they have to keep them here. For them, relief is far greater than the concerns of loved ones they leave behind.

If God was the answer, why did that person get to that point in the first place? And don't reply with free will and choices. I was Christian long enough to not be swayed by that baloney.


----------



## Tennessee

Solon said:


> If God was the answer, why did that person get to that point in the first place? And don't reply with free will and choices. I was Christian long enough to not be swayed by that baloney.


But what if that is the answer? I don't think it is "baloney" either.

God does give us a free will to live. WE created sin, not God. Adam and Eve screwed it up for the rest of us by taking the apple, and we do have hardships and troubles because of that. But like I said before, Gods puts us through these things because he knows we can make it through them. It's the selfish cowards that just don't try hard enough.


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## paintsrule

wannahorse22 said:


> This is probably a question that will get some opinionated answers. For me, there is always a way. I am a believer in God. So I do ahve faith that he can pull anyone out of any situation. It might take a miracle- but there is always a way. Just my belief.
> 
> I feel like I am thinking very out-of-the-box. I am only 14...this is some hardcore thinking.:lol:


 True. I too believe in God _most_ of the time, I will admit that I am still getting there. But, do you think God could lead you to sucide? Could that ever be your chosen path, destiny, whatever that God chooses? Or is that to cruel for God to make you suffer enough you want to die? Is God a loving God who would rather you live through all your struggles so he can eventually pass you on to him himself when he feels its right and will he never let you struggle enough that you just have to die? I dont know if I can answer yes to that because it brings up the question, why then, if God loves us enough to keep us here till he himself chooses to cause us to die, do people commit sucide in the first place? Do only people who dont know God take that path, because God is not in their life and not controlling it, so to speak? That doesnt seem fair to me. I would like to think God cares about all people no matter if they follow him or not, he created them after all.
Out of the box thinking is good for you. It challenges you and gets those brain juices flowin'.


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## paintsrule

Solon said:


> Then you *don't know*. If you have not been to that edge staring into the abyss. You do not know.
> 
> Crying can only go so far for a person who's broken. For those people they've exhausted everything they have to keep them here. For them, relief is far greater than the concerns of loved ones they leave behind.QUOTE]
> 
> So, SO true. 100% agree. Until you've written your note and thought about the ways you can go, leave, be freed by death right then, right there, you have NO idea.
> When you are that far gone, there is no crying left in you, no concern, nothing, but the desperate need to be anywhere but here, to be nothing, because thats all you feel you and this life are worth.
> It may seem dramatic now, but when you are there, its so true.


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## wannahorse22

paintsrule said:


> True. I too believe in God _most_ of the time, I will admit that I am still getting there. But, do you think God could lead you to sucide? Could that ever be your chosen path, destiny, whatever that God chooses? Or is that to cruel for God to make you suffer enough you want to die? Is God a loving God who would rather you live through all your struggles so he can eventually pass you on to him himself when he feels its right and will he never let you struggle enough that you just have to die? I dont know if I can answer yes to that because it brings up the question, why then, if God loves us enough to keep us here till he himself chooses to cause us to die, do people commit sucide in the first place? Do only people who dont know God take that path, because God is not in their life and not controlling it, so to speak? That doesnt seem fair to me. I would like to think God cares about all people no matter if they follow him or not, he created them after all.
> Out of the box thinking is good for you. It challenges you and gets those brain juices flowin'.


Those are some difficult questions. I truly believe that God can lead you to anything. He led so many people in the Bible, to do things that they believe they could not do themselves. But then again, God was their with them, God _chose them._ So I believe God could lead you to anything..because it always has a good reason. BUT you have to decipher if thats God talking to you, or Satan leading you to suicide. God is always a loving God. People commit suicide on their own choice (and possibly satan tempting them). Or is God leading them to suicide for a reason? Then again, the verses say; *"Do not be a fool--why die before your time?" (Ecclesiastes 7:17b). *So you would really have to study the verses, for Gods viewpoint on this matter. Even if people don't believe in God, he is still there...disbelief does not make him not be there. God is even controlling the life of the disbelievers. BUT God doesnt nessecarily _control,_ he may also influence the way they think, or even show signs. God can even place a tragic event in that persons life; that may lead them _to_ God. He is always there; if you want him to or not, he is always there. I agree, God does care. He did create them; they are his children; his artwork. God loves everything he placed on this Earth, becasue they all represent him, and he can speak through them. Who knows? He could be using our conversation right now, just so a certain person can read it...and start wondering about God. Wondering who he is, and why he loves us. We could have been chosen to lead a person to christ right now. He's there, always listening.


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## Solon

Tenesse - your statement proves that you don't have a good understanding either. 

I think when you both get older and more experiences you'll have a better understanding. You might still disagree but you'll understand what others are saying. You are both a little to young to _really_ see what happens outside the safety of childhood.


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## Spastic_Dove

So for those of you that think it is a cowards way out how many of you have been to that point? Just curious.

Also for the same group you keep saying that if we were courageous, we would seek help. What happens to the people that have done this? The ones who have spent years asking God and others for help? Have been in and out of treatment, tried every med available to them, therapy, etc? What are these people supposed to do, how do they get through the day and not be labled a coward. 

Like Solon said if you have not been there, you do NOT know. That's fine if you think it is a sin. That is your belief. I do not agree, but I won't argue that either way. To label them as a coward however implies that they are flippantly deciding to kill themselves -- that there is a clear path to fix mental illness or depression in any of its forms and that is not true. 

I hate the argument that says God wont put us through anything we can't survive. What about childrein in Darfur? What about people who went through the Holocaust? Rape victims, women in the middle east who get acid thrown in their faces or killed for 'honor' because they were raped? I never understood that mentality. If I am overstepping my bounds here, Mods feel free to edit this. I can see how you may be able to rationalize this line of thought towards depression, but not towards any of the things I just mentioned. 

I HAVE talked to many pastors, reverends, etc about this. I grew up in the church. I have not however received a straight answer so maybe someone can enlighten me on that?


Also, kudos to this thread for making it 90 posts without it getting petty and argumentative.


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## wannahorse22

Wait. Are you talking about me?


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## wannahorse22

Spastic_Dove said:


> So for those of you that think it is a cowards way out how many of you have been to that point? Just curious.
> 
> Also for the same group you keep saying that if we were courageous, we would seek help. What happens to the people that have done this? The ones who have spent years asking God and others for help? Have been in and out of treatment, tried every med available to them, therapy, etc? What are these people supposed to do, how do they get through the day and not be labled a coward.
> Like Solon said if you have not been there, you do NOT know. That's fine if you think it is a sin. That is your belief. I do not agree, but I won't argue that either way. To label them as a coward however implies that they are flippantly deciding to kill themselves -- that there is a clear path to fix mental illness or depression in any of its forms and that is not true.
> 
> I hate the argument that says God wont put us through anything we can't survive. What about childrein in Darfur? What about people who went through the Holocaust? Rape victims, women in the middle east who get acid thrown in their faces or killed for 'honor' because they were raped? I never understood that mentality. If I am overstepping my bounds here, Mods feel free to edit this. I can see how you may be able to rationalize this line of thought towards depression, but not towards any of the things I just mentioned.
> 
> I HAVE talked to many pastors, reverends, etc about this. I grew up in the church. I have not however received a straight answer so maybe someone can enlighten me on that?
> 
> 
> Also, kudos to this thread for making it 90 posts without it getting petty and argumentative.


I dont believe they are cowards..they are helpless. I also believe God sometimes puts us through difficult things to test out faith in him, whether it be rape victims, or even natural disaster victims. God is always
testing us. Also, I have mixed feelings on if it is a sin or not. I would have to look it up inthe bible, but I may think it could also be a _misunderstanding._


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## paintsrule

wannahorse22 said:


> BUT God doesnt nessecarily _control,_ he may also influence the way they think, or even show signs. God can even place a tragic event in that persons life; that may lead them _to_ God. He is _always_ there; if you want him to or not, he is always there. I agree, God does care. He did create them; they are his children; his artwork. God loves everything he placed on this Earth, becasue they all represent him, and he can speak through them. Who knows? He could be using our conversation right now, just so a certain person can read it...and start wondering about God. Wondering who he is, and why he loves us. We could have been chosen to lead a person to christ right now. He's there, always listening.


Why then does he let people commit sucide? Shouldnt he stop in there, say wait, hang on a sec, theres more than just the pain you are feeling, I can get you through? Why doesnt God intervene when people are at their lowest possible points, and even if they dont want help anymore, I'm pretty sure God actually proving himself would stop them in their tracks. Why, if God loved us enough to die for us, pay for our sins and let us live on the earth he created does he not take a more active role and not let _his _people, the people He claims to love soo much, suffer enough to feel the only way to get better is to kill themselves?
Again, not attacking, I honestly find this a fascinating _discussion_ and look forward to the responses.


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## Spastic_Dove

How do you test an infant and how does the infant pass that test? That is what I am curious about wannahorse. People go through such things that can't even act out free will. Natural disasters, murder, illness, death doesnt just happen to adults but to everyone. What is to be learned from the death of a child? Im really not trying to argue, Im just curious as to what you believe.

Edit: Can you explain what you mean about misundersanding vs sin?


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## wannahorse22

I would love to answer thoses questions, but unfortuantely, I dont know the answer. So before I start stating things that may not be true, I am going to have to do some research. Gods book has the answers, I just need to read up 

Spastic Dove and Paintsrule- I say we all do some thinking/resaerch tonight and tomorrow. I am pretty curious too...


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## Solon

wannahorse22 said:


> I also believe God sometimes puts us through difficult things to test out faith in him, whether it be rape victims, or even natural disaster victims. God is always
> testing us.


Please tell me you don't really believe this. That God lets people get raped or victims of disasters so he can test their faith?

That is a cruel God. You don't have to do that to people to get their faith. My Grandma is Christian and has never had to go through things. She has always believed.


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## Spastic_Dove

I have read the bible front to back more than once. Between this and my talking with theologists and officials of the church is that it is beyond our comprehension and God has a plan for everyone. 

Unfortunately I am not satisfied with this answers. If these are tests, I need to be given more tools to be able to deal with the problems. I will never be able to comprehend how innocent individuals can go through the horrors that many of them do. That contradicts directly with the idea of a loving God in my mind. 

I can accept you saying that suicide victims are helpless and not cowards. In many respects I think that is true even when the individual seeks out every possible form of help.


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## wannahorse22

I guess i said that wrong :/. Nature _is nature_. Hurricanes,Tornadoes ect. they are going to happen. They are only natural _disaters_ because people are there, otherwise..its just nature. These things diffreanciate earth from heaven. Its a good thing God created pain. Otherwise, we would constantly be getting hurt.


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## Solon

I understand that, but not the rape part.

I also agree about the helpless part for people, because that is very true. Keep in mind, this also comes from a lot of pleading with God to help, to interact, to direct, to give them the strength to help themselves. And with no answer? How do you answer that?

I've read the bible numerous times. I've went to bible studies. There were so many questions that preachers wouldn't answer. Then when I found the answers, I realized why. Because a lot of preachers don't want Christians to know the truth of what the Christian faith was based on.

I'd encourage all Christians to research that - then make their decision. Most wont'. They don't want to know the truth.


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## Spastic_Dove

I am extremely interested in religions. Like I said I grew up in the church until I was about 16. 

I found a church that was actually willing to answer all of my questions regardless of how controversial. Many of them were your typical "You must have faith" "Only God knows" answers but I did get some real answers. 

What stuck with me the most though was they told me to go to heaven, you must have 100% faith in God. I questioned if this was even possible (And related to this topic, with a suicide victim this wouldnt be the case) They told me that if you lived your life according to the commandments, but at your death bed you had doubt about God, you would be sent to hell. 

On the opposite side, if you lived a bad life. Murder, steal, rape, whatever... but at your death bed you accepted God you would go to heaven so long as you asked for forgiveness. 

This I found shocking. I have yet to be able to get as straight forward of an answer from another church so I'm not sure how common this belief is. I can definitly see how it does apply to the suicide argument though. Obviously if you are killing yourself, you have lost faith that God will fix things or give you the strength to fix things. By this logic, you would go to Hell.


I do want to tell you I respect you saying you didn't know the answer, wannahorse. I don't know if you will come back quoting scriptures as an answer, but very rarely do you get an "I don't know" as an answer when speaking to a religious person as an agnostic.


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## Spastic_Dove

Double post but interested in your guys opinion on this: 

If suicide is a sin, do you think that this prevents some people for asking for help within the church because it labels them as a sinner (adding more weight to an already taboo subject)?


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## Solon

I was told the same thing. That's why I asked the preacher - well lead a bad life, have a death bed confession and no worries! Never made sense to me. 

And throwing scriptures doesn't mean much to me if the person throwing doesn't understand them. That's what I dislike most about religious discussions. People will start quoting the bible to you - well what does that mean to you and I'll tell you what it means to me.

I studies a lot of religions. It is a fascinating topic and I think everyone should do it, even Christians.

I've been really surprised though, at how many people have been leaving the Christian religion. So many people I know and grew up with. I think we are going to see a big shift over the next few decades religious wise and a lot of it has to do with what we are talking about in this thread.


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## Solon

Spastic_Dove said:


> Double post but interested in your guys opinion on this:
> 
> If suicide is a sin, do you think that this prevents some people for asking for help within the church because it labels them as a sinner (adding more weight to an already taboo subject)?


I think its absolutely is a factor. I had a friend that was a catholic that couldn't go to her church with her issues because she would be 'condemned'.


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## lopez

Back to the original topic : )

This year our senior school was gathered into the Chapel and told one of our class mates as died and nothing more. The next day we were brought back in and told he had committed suicide. I didn't personally know him but I knew of him. He was a grade up from me. Basically what happened is that he felt trapped in something and the only way out was to kill himself.

I think suicide is absolutely devastating, I have seen the effects it can have on a commuinty. But sadly I have to say it is the cowards way out.


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## Solon

And you think they are a coward why?


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## lopez

GAAAH! I accidentally hit the post button before I had edited and finished writing. Lemme try that again!

Back to the original topic : )

This year our senior school was gathered into the Chapel and told one of our class mates as died and nothing more. The next day we were brought back in and told he had committed suicide. I didn't personally know him but I knew of him. He was a grade up from me. Basically what happened is that he felt trapped in something and the only way out was to kill himself.

I think suicide is absolutely devastating, I have seen the effects it can have on a community. I can see why it can be seen as the cowards way out, when someone doesn't want to face up to what they've done so they do this. But a lot of the time it COULD have been fixed and that person could have lived on. I recently discovered a girl on youtube that had lost her horse and her best friend so she killed herself. This is where I think it is sad. She had so much ahead of her and she just threw it all away. I mean, If I lost my horse and best friend I would be so sad for a long time but I think overall I would be able to stay alive because I know that there are so many people that would be affected.

That's just my view.

http://www.horseforum.com/#ixzz10sTnNe31​


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## Tennessee

Solon said:


> Tenesse - your statement proves that you don't have a good understanding either.
> 
> I think when you both get older and more experiences you'll have a better understanding. You might still disagree but you'll understand what others are saying. You are both a little to young to _really_ see what happens outside the safety of childhood.


You really should get to know someone before making the assumption they do not have the life experience to understand these kind of things. 

As a matter of fact, I'm was in substance abuse therapy twice a week last year because I turned to alcohol when no one was there for me, including my parents who care more about making money than they do about me. I understand what it's like to have no where left to turn, but I finally got help for myself. 

I could go on about my "experiences," but I fear that they are not appropriate for HF. 

I may be young, but I'm not stupid.


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## paintsrule

Solon said:


> I've been really surprised though, at how many people have been leaving the Christian religion. So many people I know and grew up with. I think we are going to see a big shift over the next few decades religious wise and a lot of it has to do with what we are talking about in this thread.


I agree. Its almost like a repeat of history when we emerged from the medieval times with a whole new idea of what should be valued in this world and began to question the whole blind faith following that seemed to be the accepted view of those times. Its like once again we are saying wait, what? Do we _really _believe this? Does this really make _sense_?
I think questioning is great, it helps us figure out things and be able to figure out what we should and shouldnt believe. Times are getting tough, and people are moving away from God I think because they are realizing "God" isnt doing what He claims to do, He isnt protecting/delivering us like scriptures say He should.


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## Solon

But you are speaking from the outside looking in. Unless you know the inner torment, you don't know why that person did what they did. I think that's the point a lot of us are trying to get across.

If you aren't that person you don't know the depths of the struggle to not want to go on. People in that state are so tormented that how loved ones will feel doesn't come into play. Those loved ones aren't going through hell. I'd question how selfish it is of someone to want those people to stay and suffer like they are.

Sure things can't get turned around. For a lot of people this happens. But you always know you were there. Right on the edge.


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## Solon

Tennessee said:


> You really should get to know someone before making the assumption they do not have the life experience to understand these kind of things.
> 
> As a matter of fact, I'm was in substance abuse therapy twice a week last year because I turned to alcohol when no one was there for me, including my parents who care more about making money than they do about me. I understand what it's like to have no where left to turn, but I finally got help for myself.
> 
> I could go on about my "experiences," but I fear that they are not appropriate for HF.
> 
> I may be young, but I'm not stupid.


I was going by your statement. And by the statement you wrote, I stand by what I said then. What you did was to have more strength then a lot of people. It's a lot harder to pull yourself out of it then to just go for it and end your life. A lot of people don't have that strength. That does not make them a coward.


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## Spastic_Dove

Suicide IS a permanent solution to a temporary problem. I don't think anyone on here will say suicide is ever a good option. 
However we are saying that as logical, sound-minded individuals. 

The problem is that when you are at that point, you are not thinking rationally or logically. 
That horse and that friend could have been all the student had. Some people can get through completely devastating things and not think of suicide. Others lose a horse and feel like suicide is the only option. Instead of spreading the idea that only cowards commit suicide, we should instead open up ourselves to these people instead of judging them and attempting to understand their minds which is impossible. It is incredibly hard to ask for help and admit that you can't handle your life on your own. When you are at that point getting dressed sounds as difficult as climbing mount everest. I think it's important to try to UNDERSTAND and break the stigmas attached to suicide. 

What do you mean by "someone doesn't want to face up to what they've done" ?


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## Solon

That was a really great reply Spastic.

It's not a good option - but it's the only option many people think they have. If I lost my horse, I would be unconsolable. Silly? Perhaps. It's just the relationship I have with my horse. Some people are more deeply connected to critters and that one friend that's been there your whole life and when you lose that - I could see that girls despair.


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## lopez

I've been through a stage in my life like that. Perhaps not to that point of sheer hopelessness but I've been pretty **** close. I cried everyday, I never felt wanted all that stuff, I didn't see the point of getting outta bed every morning to just break down again through the day BUT I still couldn't see how killing myself would help. Maybe I just think that way but to me, killing myself was never an option and I've felt pretty hopeless sometimes.

I've seen what death can do to a family. My brother died of cancer when he was 18. I know how hard it is for people to move on, my mum still cries and I get upset and I can't even remember him. It's a ripple effect, one person dies and everyone around them is affected. 

Suicide is one of the most horrible things on this earth, to know someone felt so hopeless that they had to do that. It absolutely devastates families, but I have to agree with what you said, they aren't worrying about that are they?


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## TheRoughrider21

I'm a Christian but I don't believe people who commit sucide go to hell. I guess I'm a Christian with my own beliefs mixed in there. I've had...friends commit sucide and they honeslty have no idea how hard it hit everyone left behind. I understand they were struggling and finally hopefully found some peace. I had a friend that was diagnosed with depression and every medicene they put him on either made him even more depressed or his moods changed so rapidly that he was miserable. They wanted to put him in a mental hospital. He was 17. He ended his life and honestly, I can understand why he did it. Who'd want to live like that?


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## paintsrule

Now, mental hospitals are not exactly bad things. They CAN help certain people, they have helped at least two people I know. Not a majority by any means but they can do some good. They will not return you to stablity for good, because I think depression is a permanant thing and a person affected by it will always battle against it. They do give you a different outlook and the ability to at least go home for a little while longer a little bit happier, sometimes you can spend a couple weeks there and go home stable enough to live the rest of your life, I've seen it done.
But its rough, I had to go there to visit and it was hard. The people there seemed so _gone_ its hard to explain, but its scary and sad. But the whole situation, hospital or not is scary and it is sad and incredibly rough, thats why people end up giving up and I dont really blame them at all.
No one wants to live like that, thats the thing, no one enjoys mental pain and torment thats why they commit sucide. 
Theres a breaking point in every human, its the human condition, none of us are iron men who can say "my husband died, I lost my job etc. Oh well, time to move on", Its not going to happen and no one should be blamed for that. Its not right, and if God condemns people for that and expects them to never break down even though he created them to i'm not sure Heaven would be such a great place to be after all.


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## Spastic_Dove

Great post, paintsrule. 

I think what people should realize is no one wants to die. That just seems like the only solution. Instead, we/they want the pain to stop. To be saved. When I was suicidal, a friend said to me: "What if you die and nothing happens. You won't be able to feel sadness or hurt, but you won't be able to feel relief either. You will be nothing". 

It's hard to explain how incredibly attractive that sounded to me. To feel nothing. 
I know I'm not the only person to have felt that way. Everyone would much rather be happy and free of pain instead of dead. But when you are at that point, the idea that you could ever be happy is so inconceivable. You think that even if you were happy, something horrible would happen and you would just be sad again so whats the point? 

You assume everyone will move on or be better without you OR you just can't care or seem to think about it. Because you feel worthless. You feel as if you are not contributing to the world or won't be missed when you are gone. 

How completely insane does that sound? Even being the one who thought it, I can say it doesnt sound sane. I'm just trying to show some people who maybe never had these feelings the type of thoughts that go through your head. 

You can be depressed and never be suicidal. No rational person will think suicide is an option, but when you cross over that line, your think in a completely irrational way.


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## Solon

To feel nothing would be a splendid thing when you are in that state. I agree completely.

I think you justify that people around you will move on so you don't have to have the additional burden of their sadness if you do kill yourself.


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## Spastic_Dove

Definitly true, Solon. 

I am trying to think of what happened for me. 

I remember for a long time, I never did anything because I knew people would be left behind. I don't remember what happened but it was like I woke up one day and someone had turned a switch and I couldn't bear to deal with their hurt on top of my own so I just told myself they would move on. I thought I was "Finally doing something for myself instead of everyone else" :roll: Go figure.


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## Solon

Solon is what stopped me. I realized living without him was a worse hell than what I was going through.


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## TheRoughrider21

Spastic_Dove said:


> Great post, paintsrule.
> 
> I think what people should realize is no one wants to die. That just seems like the only solution. Instead, we/they want the pain to stop. To be saved. When I was suicidal, a friend said to me: "What if you die and nothing happens. You won't be able to feel sadness or hurt, but you won't be able to feel relief either. You will be nothing".
> 
> It's hard to explain how incredibly attractive that sounded to me. To feel nothing.
> I know I'm not the only person to have felt that way. Everyone would much rather be happy and free of pain instead of dead. But when you are at that point, the idea that you could ever be happy is so inconceivable. You think that even if you were happy, something horrible would happen and you would just be sad again so whats the point?
> 
> You assume everyone will move on or be better without you OR you just can't care or seem to think about it. Because you feel worthless. You feel as if you are not contributing to the world or won't be missed when you are gone.
> 
> How completely insane does that sound? Even being the one who thought it, I can say it doesnt sound sane. I'm just trying to show some people who maybe never had these feelings the type of thoughts that go through your head.
> 
> You can be depressed and never be suicidal. No rational person will think suicide is an option, but when you cross over that line, your think in a completely irrational way.


This is a great post. I don't like to think back to the days I was suicidal. It hurts me to think about it. But when every morning, just waking up was a chore and I was never happy and nothing...not even horses made me happy I was ready to do something about it. I got help...but even the help didn't help. I remember walking out on the bridge late at night and watching the water crash against the rocks and wondered how it would feel. The peacefulness of falling and then the pain of my body slamming against the rocks. But unlike you...all I felt was nothing. I didn't have any emotions anymore. I thought maybe if I did something...like what I said above, I would finally feel something. Luckily, I called my boyfriend at the time. And when he came and let me cry and he just held me and told me he couldn't fix my problems but would always be by my side to help me with them...I felt loved for the first time in a long time. That's the only thing that kept me from jumping over the side of the bridge that night.


----------



## Spastic_Dove

Aren't horses amazing? 

The same experience is what made me decide on my career. Once I get my LCSW, I'll be practicing therapy using Equine Facilitated Therapy.

RoughRider: 

I don't mind talking about my experiences because I hope someone can relate and feel like someone else got through it so maybe they can too. I've never been to the point where I felt nothing and was seeking to feel so it's hard for me to understand that side of it. Thanks for sharing your story.


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## paintsrule

So true Spastic_Dove. It just seems not worth it anymore. Its like, if you left, everyone you knew and once loved would find out and just say, "Oh really? Hmm. Now whats for dinner?" Like no one would give a flying patooty if you lived or died. And that may not be true but it sure seems like that when your toes are over the cliff. 
To "outsiders", if you will, it may seem like really? come on now, you cant honestly think NO ONE cares? But uh yeah, people do feel that way. Happiness, to people considering sucide, seems like something that existed a billion years ago and was suddenly yanked from you and ran far away and is never coming back. If you can pull, dig, claw yourself out of the pit and off the cliff your rational thought will come back and it will be like wait, huh? I felt that way, naaah, thats stupid! But, unfortunatly for truly depressed people the bad, sad, horrible feelings will come back and for alot of people this rollarcoaster becomes more than they can take, and sometimes they never climb out or lift their heads above water to stop the drowning. They stay there in that depressed, agonizing almost catatonic state, lying in bed, dreaming of being nothing, and slip away, exhausted from feeling. It happens, its not rational, like Spastic_Dove said, but its reality and no one should be punished for feeling reality.


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## TheRoughrider21

Spastic_Dove said:


> Aren't horses amazing?
> 
> The same experience is what made me decide on my career. Once I get my LCSW, I'll be practicing therapy using Equine Facilitated Therapy.
> 
> RoughRider:
> 
> I don't mind talking about my experiences because I hope someone can relate and feel like someone else got through it so maybe they can too. I've never been to the point where I felt nothing and was seeking to feel so it's hard for me to understand that side of it. Thanks for sharing your story.


No problem. I guess when I read your story, I felt I had to because in my mind, I couldn't understand why you would want to feel nothing. Like that one song says, "I'd rather feel pain than nothing at all." When people ask me about it now, I've learned that "nothing" is the hardest feeling to decribe. Some people say that you can't feel nothing but I don't believe that.


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## Spastic_Dove

Funny that you mention that, that song has always confused me because at times nothing seemed like the greatest thing in the world and I couldn't imagine wanting to feel. 
Can't say I've ever been in your shoes though. 

Funny how the mind works...


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## paintsrule

TheRoughrider21 said:


> Some people say that you can't feel nothing but I don't believe that.


Oh yes, you can. I have. Its like walking around and existing in a catanoic state where nothing matters. You're just DONE. You just havent gotten to the last step the leaving step, the step to making the nothingness permanant.


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## TheRoughrider21

Spastic_Dove said:


> Funny that you mention that, that song has always confused me because at times nothing seemed like the greatest thing in the world and I couldn't imagine wanting to feel.
> Can't say I've ever been in your shoes though.
> 
> Funny how the mind works...


I'm trying to work out my mind here so stick with me a bit. =D

I think when you stop feeling anything...you feel like you're inferer...that you're not living anymore. And when nothing can make you feel pain, sadness, happiness, confusion, etc then it makes life seem not worth living. If you don't feel anything...doesn't that make you already dead? When my baby cousin was born...I felt nothing. I wasn't excited or happy when I should have been. Pain didn't exsist anymore. When you watch you're dog get hit by a semi, your best friend dies in a fire, and your ex-horse trainer goes behind you're back and sells your first horse, your only true "heart" horse all in one month, I guess you feel that you can't be hurt anymore. And you build a wall so high and wide that nothing can affect you. 

I don't know...this probably makes no sence at all.


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## paintsrule

TheRoughrider21 said:


> I'm trying to work out my mind here so stick with me a bit. =D
> 
> I think when you stop feeling anything...you feel like you're inferer...that you're not living anymore. And when nothing can make you feel pain, sadness, happiness, confusion, etc then it makes life seem not worth living. If you don't feel anything...doesn't that make you already dead?


Exactly. And thats what attracts truly depressed and sucidal people. They like feeling like that, its soo much better than the constant pain and sadness. This step, this nothingness is I think what leads people to take the final step and end their lives.


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## Spastic_Dove

No, that makes more sense for sure. I've had events where I've felt that way for instance when the uncle I mentioned earlier in this thread died. I didn't feel any emotion. 

However I never felt it on such a consistent basis like you described. Sounds horrible.


Just wanted to say I love all you guys for getting through everything you have and for getting the help you needed


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## TheRoughrider21

Its funny though...after going through that, I live life to the fullest now. I'm probably the happiest/bubbliest person you'll meet...and no, I'm not on any meds. People who knew me back then and see me now and they're like, "What happened to you? What made you so happy now?" I guess I don't have an answer for that. I'm not sure what happened to change me so drastically. =) 

Night everyone!


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## paintsrule

Im still going through it. I still fight everyday with depression, it happens alot in the beginnings of the weeks, it just hits me like a brick wall with no warning and no real trigger. It sucks because people will say "Whats wrong with you now?" "Your a downer" and various other things. They dont understand I cant help it and I dont enjoy feeling like this and that what they say just makes me feel bad about it and substequentally worse in general.
Ah well. Im sorry I didnt mean to complain.
I comend those that have made it through.


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## HowClever

I was a cutter for many many years before I almost took my life (the first time) and I would cut because I would then bleed and that would be a reminder that I was still alive. A reminder I needed because I was feeling nothing. I took metaphorical hit after hit while I was a young teenager. At 15 I was assaulted. By the time I was 18/19 those metaphorical hits were literal hits, because (in my mind) that was what I was worth. It was that point when my mind decided it was better to feel nothing than everything I was feeling and I became numb. It was the numbness that drove me to the edge firstly.

Now, this I wanted to bring up to see what some of the people who have posted have to say. The second time I was on the verge of suicide is a different story entirely. I had sought out help, recognised I had a problem and was in counselling once a week and on meds to try and stabilise me. I'm not sure if its the same over in America, but over here the warning label on pretty much all anti-depressants states "may cause suicidal thoughts". Ironic, huh? Bet you can guess what happened. That medication instead of pulling me out of a bad place, locked me in to it. I spent the time I was on that med being absolutely tormented by thoughts of suicide, until I was found on the bathroom floor almost passed out from the pills I had taken and bleeding quite severely. I was doctored and then taken to my doctor who immediately weaned me off of those anti-depressants. 

Sorry to get all honest and deep there, but my question for those who say "suicide is for the cowards who don't get help". What if it is the "help" that has led them to the suicide?


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## Solon

paintsrule said:


> Oh yes, you can. I have. Its like walking around and existing in a catanoic state where nothing matters. You're just DONE. You just havent gotten to the last step the leaving step, the step to making the nothingness permanant.


Agreed. You can absolutely feel nothing. I still remember the feeling. I remembered how much it scared me at first, then I liked it.

Then I went to the barn to see Solon. Normally when I walk in the stall he looks up to see if I've got treats then goes back to munching on his dinner but that time, he lifted up his head and he didn't look at me, it felt like he looked in me. And he just kept staring at me and then he came over and he put his head on my shoulder and I just cried and cried and he never moved until I was done crying. And I realized that the nothing feeling wasn't near as peaceful as the feeling I just had.

It wasn't talking with other people or family or friends, or reading online how to get better or medicines. It was just that one quiet moment with my best pal. 

I will always have to take medication for depression. I'm fine with that. It works. I think it's really bad there's so much out there that's against people being on medication. That people should be able to suck it up and get better. Well, wouldn't it be nice to be just like them.


----------



## Solon

HowClever said:


> I'm not sure if its the same over in America, but over here the warning label on pretty much all anti-depressants states "may cause suicidal thoughts". Ironic, huh? Bet you can guess what happened. That medication instead of pulling me out of a bad place, locked me in to it. I spent the time I was on that med being absolutely tormented by thoughts of suicide, until I was found on the bathroom floor almost passed out from the pills I had taken and bleeding quite severely. I was doctored and then taken to my doctor who immediately weaned me off of those anti-depressants.


They have those warnings here too. Absolutely any medication needs to be monitored very closely by a doctor and the minute you start feeling those things you need to tell the doctor right away so the medication can be adjusted or removed and something else tried. I went through a few before I found the right med and the right dose.

I'm glad you were okay!


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## paintsrule

Solon said:


> Agreed. You can absolutely feel nothing. I still remember the feeling. I remembered how much it scared me at first, then I liked it.
> 
> I will always have to take medication for depression. I'm fine with that. It works. I think it's really bad there's so much out there that's against people being on medication. That people should be able to suck it up and get better. Well, wouldn't it be nice to be just like them.


Agreed, Its quite enjoyable once you realize that its much better and different than the pain.
This may seem wierd but my cat gets me through. Man I love that guy.
I admire those on medicine. Im to scared to ask for any because of my family history. It would make things very difficult in my household. I comend you.


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## Solon

Think of you though. Not about your family. In these circumstances, you are what matters. Not what they think or what their opinions are. It would be hard and maybe you would have to hide it initially or do something - but if it helps you and works and makes you happy, that is more important!

I don't think it's weird at all about your cat! Like I mentioned in my post, I see that with my horse. I'm so grateful to have him in my life.


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## paintsrule

Solon said:


> Think of you though. Not about your family. In these circumstances, you are what matters. Not what they think or what their opinions are. It would be hard and maybe you would have to hide it initially or do something - but if it helps you and works and makes you happy, that is more important!


 I would have to hide it, I know that much. I may investigate that though if it gets much worse, because right now im having a hard time taking this feeling. Its just getting to be alot.


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## Spastic_Dove

Remember that for most medications, it takes a few weeks for them to take effect and for you to see if they work for you or not. I recommend trying to find the right medication before it gets to the point where it is your last resort. 

Meds are very taboo in my house hold as well so I can sympathize. I took some fast-acting meds that were very helpful but have yet to find a longer-lasting SSRI or something similar that works for me.


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## Solon

I would definitely go for it then. Talk with your doc. Explain to him the situation you are in with your family. He may even have some insight for it. Then, do what you need to do. Feel better, because you deserve it.


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## Solon

Spastic_Dove said:


> Remember that for most medications, it takes a few weeks for them to take effect and for you to see if they work for you or not. I recommend trying to find the right medication before it gets to the point where it is your last resort.
> 
> Meds are very taboo in my house hold as well so I can sympathize. I took some fast-acting meds that were very helpful but have yet to find a longer-lasting SSRI or something similar that works for me.


Yeah it can take about three weeks. Sometimes less, sometimes more. I take Pristique which has very few side effects for me.

I guess I will never understand why people would feel that way about the medicine. Especially if it works. I hope you can find something that works for you too!


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## katieandduke

My2Geldings said:


> Why are you asking? :think:
> 
> I honestly don't know where you end up. The only ones to know, are the ones who have passed on and see the other side. As you posted I think God is the ultimate one to judge where you should go from there but I do think that suicide is a sin.
> People who choose that way out, are cowards and also mentally ill. For someone to end up wanting to commit suicide instead of working and dealing with your problems, is a bad way to escape without fixing the problem, and it's a very selfish act because you are not considering how the people around you are going to deal with you being gone. However, for someone to see no way out but death, is also a major sign of mental illness.


 

Well a day went by(or at least i think a day.lol) and there is like 5 more pages of replies O.O

SO since you directed a question towards me I'll reply to your post.. 

I was just curious to see what other people's opinions were towards the subject.


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## katieandduke

Tennessee said:


> But what if that is the answer? I don't think it is "baloney" either.
> 
> God does give us a free will to live. WE created sin, not God. Adam and Eve screwed it up for the rest of us by taking the apple, and we do have hardships and troubles because of that. But like I said before, Gods puts us through these things because he knows we can make it through them. *It's the selfish cowards that just don't try hard enough*.


 
Feel free to correct me if I am wrong and misunderstood this sentence.. So you are saying.. for example... If a person that has went everyday with pain, physically and emotionally, and tried time after time to conquer that pain but couldnt.. Medicine wouldnt help.. etc.. They didn't try hard enough... If that person is at the point of suicide I think that they did try.. EVERY situation is different, some may could have tried harder than others.. but that is not for us to judge. To me, if you are in so much pain and there is no more options, I do not feel that the person that commits suicide is a selfish coward that gave up too quick.


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## katieandduke

Spastic_Dove said:


> So for those of you that think it is a cowards way out how many of you have been to that point? Just curious.
> 
> Also for the same group you keep saying that if we were courageous, we would seek help. What happens to the people that have done this? The ones who have spent years asking God and others for help? Have been in and out of treatment, tried every med available to them, therapy, etc? What are these people supposed to do, how do they get through the day and not be labled a coward.
> 
> Like Solon said if you have not been there, you do NOT know. That's fine if you think it is a sin. That is your belief. I do not agree, but I won't argue that either way. To label them as a coward however implies that they are flippantly deciding to kill themselves -- that there is a clear path to fix mental illness or depression in any of its forms and that is not true.
> 
> I hate the argument that says God wont put us through anything we can't survive. What about childrein in Darfur? What about people who went through the Holocaust? Rape victims, women in the middle east who get acid thrown in their faces or killed for 'honor' because they were raped? I never understood that mentality. If I am overstepping my bounds here, Mods feel free to edit this. I can see how you may be able to rationalize this line of thought towards depression, but not towards any of the things I just mentioned.
> 
> I HAVE talked to many pastors, reverends, etc about this. I grew up in the church. I have not however received a straight answer so maybe someone can enlighten me on that?
> 
> 
> Also, kudos to this thread for making it 90 posts without it getting petty and argumentative.


 
I agree with many things you stated in this post. 

And hoorah that this thread has stayed...nonwar like lol..


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## katieandduke

Spastic_Dove said:


> Double post but interested in your guys opinion on this:
> 
> If suicide is a sin, do you think that this prevents some people for asking for help within the church because it labels them as a sinner (adding more weight to an already taboo subject)?


Hmm.. That is a question that I think could be answered in many different ways.. 

I actually feel completely controversial on this.. I think yes, some people will not ask a pastor for help because they will be labeled as a sinner.. But then I feel that others may be at the point where they feel God is the only answer and go to a pastor.
For those who are nonbelievers then would they consider themselves judged and be called a sinner?

this might be the most arrogant question i have ever asked.. but I truly do not know the answer. Which is why I should research more.. But for those of you atheists, If you do not believe in God then do you believe in sinners? I mean if you feel there is no heaven or hell then would there be sin? that may have been the wrong way to phrase that question but hopefully yall understand!


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## Speed Racer

katieandduke said:


> But for those of you atheists, If you do not believe in God then do you believe in sinners? I mean if you feel there is no heaven or hell then would there be sin? that may have been the wrong way to phrase that question but hopefully yall understand!


I'm not an atheist, but I feel qualified to answer the question.

Of_ course_ there are sinners and sin. Do you think rape, murder, child molestation, wife beating, and every other sordid thing the human race comes up with AREN'T sins? Evil is evil, whether or not you believe in a deity.


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## katieandduke

Solon said:


> That was a really great reply Spastic.
> 
> It's not a good option - but it's the only option many people think they have. If I lost my horse, I would be unconsolable. Silly? Perhaps. It's just the relationship I have with my horse. Some people are more deeply connected to critters and that one friend that's been there your whole life and when you lose that - I could see that girls despair.


 
I agree,Solon. If I lost Duke i would honestly not know how to function. He is my life.. So I understand where that girl came from. Its sad that she choose a way out when she may have been able to be helped if someone took the time. I think people are soooo caught up in themselves these days they do not take the time to help someone they see in need. 

That girl wasnt a coward.. Noone probably knew her situation.. To lose your bestfriend and your horse.. your horse is like your bestfriend.. Mine is.. She could have felt she the only people that cared for her was gone.. I would be beyond devastated if I lost Duke. There has been some times when I thought I was going to.. It is those moments when you realize that what you have, the love you share is so unimaginable, indescribable.. Nothing can compare to that feeling.. and when you lose that love.. Nothing would ever be the same.. 

OK... i have no idea where that last paragraph went... lol.. so sorry for making no sense but I do not want to delete it so Ill just leave it to share. =]


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## katieandduke

Speed Racer said:


> I'm not an atheist, but I feel qualified to answer the question.
> 
> Of_ course_ there are sinners and sin. Do you think rape, murder, child molestation, wife beating, and every other sordid thing the human race comes up with AREN'T sins? Evil is evil, whether or not you believe in a deity.


 
Well that was I was thinking.. Just wasnt sure if that(rape,murder,etc.) was considered sin..

I think I meant the word ignorant and not arragant.. lol.. im running on 3 hours of sleep in 48 hours so I probably make no sense LOL


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## Spastic_Dove

I'm agnostic, not atheist so I may have a slightly skewed answer compared to atheists. 

I believe in morally and ethically wrong decisions. Its common sense to not kill, rape, steal, cheat, or hurt anyone else. I believe in the rule of treating others how you want to be treated. I don't think these are wrong because the bible says so, I think they are wrong because humans need to look out for eachother. For us to survive as a race and for me to say that I lived as a good person that means I have to not hurt others and try to fix it if I did. This for me has nothing to do with God. 

Possibly there is some truth to the bible. I do not believe it is to be taken literally though. I do not have a problem with the religion. I have a problem with the church and many, i feel, extremist followers. The Bible came from stories that were passed on by word of mouth over generations. Ever play the game 'telephone' in school? Things get distorted. 
The Bible was edited by the church. Men of the church decided what books and scriptures were to be put in the bible and which were to excluded because they conflicted with the church. The church is a VERY powerful institution and they are very smart. I'll hand them that. I trust them about as much as I trust politicians though. Notice the distinction between church and god for me though. 

I believe in gay marriage. I am pro-choice. I am not a virgin. I'm currently wearing a cotton blend dress and I had some bacon this morning. According to the Bible, all of these things make me a sinner and more than one of them mean I should be stoned to death. 

Sin? No. Behavior that is wrong regardless of sex, culture, age, or location. I believe that exists.


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## Spastic_Dove

Speed Racer, you just summed that up far better than me. 

According to the commandments, murder is a sin. But God murders in the Bible all the time. Is God a sinner? Is murdering ever allowed? According to the Bible, yes. This is where I get all muddled up and confused with it.


----------



## katieandduke

Spastic_Dove said:


> Speed Racer, you just summed that up far better than me.
> 
> According to the commandments, murder is a sin. But God murders in the Bible all the time. Is God a sinner? Is murdering ever allowed? According to the Bible, yes. This is where I get all muddled up and confused with it.


 
Good way to look at it.. Yet another question with so many answers lol

And I didnt mean just atheists.. anybody that has a different view than believers is welcomed! =]


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## Solon

Exactly the same things I have wondered about.


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## katieandduke

Solon said:


> Exactly the same things I have wondered about.


 
I'm gonna make a list of all my questions, I could probably make a book out of it! lol


I have FINALLY caught up to page 15? i think! lol.. I read every post. thinking i would never get to the last page because I kept replying but I made it! lol


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## Solon

You've come up with one of the best topics on the forum!


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## katieandduke

Solon said:


> You've come up with one of the best topics on the forum!


 
Well thank you! lol.. I didn't think it would get this many replies but it did and I'm happy for that!

It has done what I hoped it would, open my eyes to different views..
And hopefully other people have learned new things from this thread.


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## paintsrule

I think, even if I were to become totally agnostic (im still on the fence), I would always believe in morals and right wrong. Just because a person doesnt believe that someone made rules, wrote them down and came up with punishments for disobeying them, human character still dicates what one should and shouldnt do.
Many, many people dont believe in God and would never dream of hurting another living thing or telling more than a white lie. Athesits are NOT bad people. There are good and bad people in every section and belief in life, whether that belief is in God or not. They decide what is good and bad in life and that is much the same as what a believers God decides is good and bad. Morals are still morals and a conscious is still a conscious with or without a holy being hovering in it. Or is it your soul God hovers in? Only truly sick people who hurt children and women etc. cant seperate right from wrong, and that, I think, has nothing to do with God, its something wrong in the brain, not the soul.
Sucide may mean something is wrong in a persons brain and they have an illness or simply they cant take it. That is not having wrong morals, in fact I think it is the opposite; a person taking their own life is doing what they think is kindest and right at the time, ridding the world and themselves of unbearable pain.
Just my thoughts.


----------



## NinthHeroine

I don't think suicide is automatically going to send you to hell; it's a wrong, horrible thing to do, but it's just doing early (unfortunately) what's gotta happen eventually anyways.

I'm a Christian, so I do believe in a heaven and hell. I believe if you truly accept Christ as your savior and repent of your sins, then you will go to heaven. Suicide is sinful, but nothing can separate us from God once we're apart of His family--once we have become Christians, we can't do anything that will make Him decide to send us to hell instead. Even suicide.

So basically, I believe if you're a born again Christian, you will go to heaven, even if you've committed suicide. If you haven't accepted Christ as your savior and are NOT a born again Christian and commit suicide, then yes, I believe you will go to hell.


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## Spastic_Dove

So, bare with me here. But what do you think happens in hell, Heroine. 

What do you think about the answer I was given saying that even if I live as a good person and thing that there is a God out there, but I am not 100% certain it is Jesus/Christian God?


----------



## Adonai Ace

katieandduke said:


> I actually feel completely controversial on this.. I think yes, some people will not ask a pastor for help because they will be labeled as a sinner.. But then I feel that others may be at the point where they feel God is the only answer and go to a pastor.


The bible says that ALL have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God.

Churches aren't places for perfect people, If the people in them were perfect they wouldn't need God.


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## Surprise 623

Well what about those who have never heard of Christ? I think absolutes are nonexistant in real life ...we all know when we are doing right or wrong..He put the answer within


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## Spastic_Dove

I dont know about others, but for Catholics, Baptisim absolves you of origional sin. When you recieve Reconciliation, you go to confession to be absolved of further sins.
Of course everyone sinned but those who confess are "forgivin". Regardless of what the sin. 

Surprise: The church I spoke with said if they truly had not heard of God, they would not go to hell. They argued though that this was the duty of missionaries and it would be "near impossible" to find a case like this amount anyone other than infants. Even children, according to them, are capable of knowing God after the toddler years.


----------



## Adonai Ace

Spastic_Dove said:


> I dont know about others, but for Catholics, Baptisim absolves you of origional sin. When you recieve Reconciliation, you go to confession to be absolved of further sins.
> Of course everyone sinned but those who confess are "forgivin". Regardless of what the sin.
> 
> Surprise: The church I spoke with said if they truly had not heard of God, they would not go to hell. They argued though that this was the duty of missionaries and it would be "near impossible" to find a case like this amount anyone other than infants. Even children, according to them, are capable of knowing God after the toddler years.


The bible says different... but i have to go to work and will have to find it later sorry. the bible also says that we are only judged according to the knowledge we have.


----------



## katieandduke

Adonai Ace said:


> The bible says that ALL have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God.
> 
> Churches aren't places for perfect people, If the people in them were perfect they wouldn't need God.


 
I didn't say churches were a place for perfect people? lol 

Churches are also filled with hypocrites. And noone must go to church to be considered a Christain. 

Also, there is no "perfect" person.. nooone's perfect. I do realize that


----------



## katieandduke

Spastic_Dove said:


> I dont know about others, but for Catholics, Baptisim absolves you of origional sin. When you recieve Reconciliation, you go to confession to be absolved of further sins.
> Of course everyone sinned but those who confess are "forgivin". Regardless of what the sin.
> 
> Surprise: The church I spoke with said if they truly had not heard of God, they would not go to hell. They argued though that this was the duty of missionaries and it would be "near impossible" to find a case like this amount anyone other than infants. Even children, according to them, are capable of knowing God after the toddler years.


 
hmmm... but what about the countries that have no religion whatsoever.. can't think of one at the moment but they have to be out there right? And what about mentally handicapped people? they have the brain compacity of a child.. I think they shouldnt be held responsible for their sins.. but that is just me randomly thinking lol


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## Spastic_Dove

The bible says a lot of things the church doesn't follow and the church says a lot of things that I'm sure God wouldn't endorse. Curious to hear what the Bible actually says as I've seem to have missed it in all my searching.


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## Spastic_Dove

Hmm. I know there are some countries that have no official religion. I don't think theres a country of atheists though (Unless America counts?)

I think a handicapped person should go to 'heaven'.

What happens if a person becomes handicapped in the middle of life and never gets the chance to repent? 

way too much grey area!


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## katieandduke

Spastic_Dove said:


> The bible says a lot of things the church doesn't follow and the church says a lot of things that I'm sure God wouldn't endorse. Curious to hear what the Bible actually says as I've seem to have missed it in all my searching.


 

me too... I have heard this taught to me in Bible class last year but man... I can't think of any verses the teacher quoted. gosh darnet! lol


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## katieandduke

Spastic_Dove said:


> Hmm. I know there are some countries that have no official religion. I don't think theres a country of atheists though (Unless America counts?)
> 
> I think a handicapped person should go to 'heaven'.
> 
> What happens if a person becomes handicapped in the middle of life and never gets the chance to repent?
> 
> way too much grey area!


 
oh wow... wayyy too much.. lol... 

I say, hmmm.. I dont know what I say to that question..


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## Solon

Spastic_Dove said:


> The bible says a lot of things the church doesn't follow and the church says a lot of things that I'm sure God wouldn't endorse. Curious to hear what the Bible actually says as I've seem to have missed it in all my searching.


Absolutely. I'm sure god doesn't endorse pastors abusing little kids but that's fairly prevalent. What about all the murders done in the name of Christ (witch hunts anyone?).

Not to mention the books that never made it into the bible that say things 'men' didn't want others to follow - like in the Book of Thomas where it states you don't have to worship in a building to be at one with God.


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## Surprise 623

good point Solon...I feel so much that is good has been manipulated by the interpretation of people...in that time, men exclusively. No man or woman is even close to perfect and so the Bible isn't either...but when you think about it it still points you in the right direction...who can deny that?


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## Spastic_Dove

Or what about the gospel of mary magdeline(sp)? What about Lilith? 

I understand what you are saying Surprise, unfortunatly many people use the bible as the absolut truth. It is gods word. If I am to believe this, it MUST be perfect. Unfortunatly, it is a book by man and so this is not the case. Thats why I regard it as a historical text. I'm not arguing with you, just discussing my opinions. 

To me, the Bible doesnt point me in the right direction. To me, The Bible is common sense. I believe that the vast majority of people will not have a huge change in their life once they read the bible. Treat others as you want to be treated. An atheist mother would still teach that to her kid even if she never bought him a bible. 

The Bible, to me, points me in as much of a direction as Harry Potter. (Hey, book has good values).

Will add that I do not think the Bible is on any differant level than the qu'ran or any other religious text not just trying to bash the church. None of them are absolute IMO


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## Surprise 623

Well think about this.... why do humans care about each other as no other species do? We make truly selfless decisions...dying for what we believe in despite the self preservation factor? We protect and try to help the weak and disabled where every other species disposes of them..even to our detriment...where do we get this?


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## Solon

I don't know about pointing people in the right direction. Common sense will get you there just the same without all the controversy.


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## Surprise 623

What you are calling common sense is non existant amongst other species...self preservation is the rule..why are we the only ones?


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## Solon

I don't think that is necessarily true though. Of course with self preservation - but one would say humans have the same thing. But if you are talking about love on another and that sort of thing, there are several species that exhibit those traits. Look at mother elephants that will stand on guard over a dead calf until she absolutely has to leave because of her own hunger/thirst. I think you can find a lot of other examples in the animal world.


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## Brighteyes

I've only read the first page; I'll keep on subject and say what I think about suicide.

I think, from a religiously neutral point of view, it is _selfish_ above all. Because you're too weak to hold out, you kill yourself and let your family grieve, fall apart, and probably blame themselves. They will live the rest of their lives thinking they are murderers. 

From a religious point of view, all I have to say is, "Thou shall not kill." Not others, not yourself. God is in control of your life and will end it when He knows it's the right and true time.


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## Solon

It would be selfish of them to want a person to continue their life on in misery, _just for them_.


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## Brighteyes

^^

One person miserable, who will hopefully hang in there and things will get better for them, or an entire group of family and freinds? One person miserable for a few months or years, or many people miserable until the day they die?


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## Solon

It's not the same thing. The depth of that misery is nothing compared to what the others feel. I've been on both sides.


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## Brighteyes

Really? I'm sorry. :-( Two horrible things... (Not sarcastic. At all.)

How long did I take you to go back to your normal state of being on both occasions? 

It would be useless to ‘argue’ my point of view further, since we can’t support what we feel with solid facts. Agree to disagree? It isn't exactly a debate on colic cures. :wink:


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## Solon

I think there are definitely solid facts - but you'd have to have gone through both to really know those facts. Get back to normal state for almost suicide - that really never leaves you. But with medication you are able to get on a somewhat normal plane - but I always say, what is really normal. 

After my close friend did it - it took a long time to heal, just as with any other person in my life that has passed away. 

I understood why she felt she couldn't continue on. I never faulted for her for it. I hoped she was finally at peace.


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## Brighteyes

I'm sorry about your friend, and I hope so too...

Thanks for the response; I hope my life never becomes so hopeless that I know exactly how you felt.

I've never had someone close to me commit suicide, but a friend of a friend killed herself over being bullied at school. I saw the effects on the people who knew and cared about her. It was such a pointless death... She was only in seventh grade. She had a lot of life to live, and she could have moved schools or asked for help or…I guess it is never that easy, but there is a way. You pulled through, why couldn't she? That's why I feel the way I feel. It's just so... Pointless, at least in her case. She probably didn't even know what she was doing or what pulling that trigger really entailed. Every person is precious, and thinking about her and what she could have done with her life… It hurts, and I don’t even know her.


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## Solon

I was one of the lucky ones and it was a tough struggle. And I also know that I could be right back there. I hope that no one ever feels that. People on the outside look at the things like you mentioned, what she could have been. 

But you never see that. You don't see that 'what could be future'. You see nothing and you want no part of the continued state or a future of feeling the same way.

I was told once that there is always one little thing that pushes the person over the edge to go through with it and one big thing that will hold someone back.


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## Tessa T

I am a Christian, who knows what its like to feel as if there is no way out. I was raised in a Christian home where my parents shared the love of Christ with me from the moment I understood and it was always just the norm. It was not until I got older and had more trials that I realized those prayers and worshipping with others like me meant more.

I have seen God's love and grace in everything around me and thank God for my parents teaching me from a child so that those rough things I went through were not trials I had to face alone. God doesn't say well you're too far gone to get better I guess I'll just let you kill yourself. I'm out. He is always with the hopeless, trying to tell them that he loves them too much and that its hurting him to see us doing this to ourselves, because there IS hope. Still he gives all of his creation free will and if they don't respond to him, he can't make them. He is with them to the end, praying they see him. 

In response to someones earlier post about the handicapped and going to heaven, my little brother is handicapped and has been from birth. He is one of the lucky ones in that he can understand things about God and love and he accepted Jesus. As for those who can't mentally grasp the concept, I believe they all go to heaven. I believe God does not condemn them to hell for being born that way and that he put them on the earth to test our hearts. How we will take care of the less fortunate and prove love "endures all things". I believe babies and children to small to understand also go to heaven and that he does not condemn you to hell for killing yourself. Some churches believe this and that, believe it or not is pretty far from Christianity. They believe in praying to the mother of Christ when they could speak right to him. They believe that a man has to be a bridge from us to God, when no man is needed to speak with my God. They also believe in doing more good deeds in order to earn their way into heaven. God does not ask this of us. He only asks that we believe in and love him. And that we believe that his death paid the price for our sin. He looks at the individual's heart. Its so simple and its so sad that so many think its a religion of works and riddles. Its not a religion, its a relationship.

I believe when a person kills themselves, its what that person's relationship was with Christ before he did it that determines where he goes next. If he loved God and kills himself, I believe Jesus meets him on the other side with open arms wanting to take away the pain. If they refused him in their lives, its the same as any other person that dies and didn't want to know him. He hopes that we all will come to him, but again we have been given free will and he will not force you to love him. He will however accept you no matter what state you're in, no matter how late the hour.

They say there are 3 things that are certain about heaven: There will be some people there you didn't expect to see. There will be some people you expected to see that won't be there. And there will be some people that will be surprised to see you.


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## Solon

The part I disagree about with your response is God making you feel like he is there with you. I was a Christian when I was going through it. I never felt once like he was there to help me. No matter how much I begged. I got no insight from the pastor. I got nothing to indicate to me that he was involved in anyway whether I went through it or stayed.

I think that is something believers tell other people that are going through it - but I've never heard one person going through that hell say they felt God was right there with them.


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## Ladytrails

I haven't read all the posts but want to address the statement that God sends horrible things (e.g. rapes and earthquakes) to innocent people. The Bible says that he allows the evil in the world to exist, but the evil in the world does not and cannot come from God. The story of Job in the Old Testament is an example of that. 

And, it's not un-Christian to doubt...or to be mad or upset at God....even Christ's disciples and the prophets had their seriously bad days. What's cool about God is that we can succeed when we are doing his will for us, despite our weaknesses, (doubts, mistakes, etc.) which showcases how much he loves us and how great his power is. Satan's most powerful tool in separating us from God is planting discouragement and making us feel abandoned by God.

I believe that humans are flawed - and power corrupts. Yes, there are nuts and nasties in the pews and pulpits of churches and they distort the Bible's teaching for their own agendas. A couple of reallly good books are Josh McDowell's 'Evidence that Demands a Verdict' and Lee Strobel's "The Case for Christ." 

Good luck with your research and learning!


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## Tessa T

Solon said:


> The part I disagree about with your response is God making you feel like he is there with you. I was a Christian when I was going through it. I never felt once like he was there to help me. No matter how much I begged. I got no insight from the pastor. I got nothing to indicate to me that he was involved in anyway whether I went through it or stayed.
> 
> I think that is something believers tell other people that are going through it - but I've never heard one person going through that hell say they felt God was right there with them.


Solon, I am sorry you had to feel that way but I am someone who has gone through that hell and I HAVE felt his presence with me through it, so you can't really say no one has ever told you they haven't felt him with them. 

Many have told me they have felt his presence as well and the answer to their prayers were not always what they wanted to hear or were ready to hear. 
There are three answers to prayer(three is a recurring number.  )
1. "Yes." 2. "No." 3 "Wait." Sometimes we mistake the "Wait" for God not caring or God not being there, but we know that he is everywhere present, eternally, constantly, without beginning or end.


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## Spastic_Dove

Ladytrails said:


> The Bible says that he allows the evil in the world to exist, but the evil in the world does not and cannot come from God. The story of Job in the Old Testament is an example of that.


I've heard this before and it seems so contradictory. God created everything. Before God, there was nothing. So therefore, God must of created evil. If God is challenging us with suicidal thoughts or the things that lead us to these thoughts, God is responsible for Pain. 


For whoever said God is in control of your life, according to The Bible, this isn't true. We have free will of course. What myself and others are trying to question is why we can be at that point and plead for help from God, try every possible outlet or solution, and get no answer for God. 

Everyone seems to be assuming that people who commit suicide do not ask for help. Many do in very blunt and straight forward ways. Others may be more subtle, but one thing I can say I am sure of is that no one wants to feel that way and everyone wants help


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## Spastic_Dove

Double post...sorry. 


Humans are self-concious. Very few animals are and the ones who are you will see VERY similar behaviors. They will protect family members, they will show empathy, compassion, and grieve. These animals don't read the bible. It doesn't come from the Bible. 

It is 100% possible to never pick up a bible, go to church, or learn about any scriptures or teachings and still follow 'the commandments' and be a honest, empathitic, and moral person.


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## Solon

Tessa T said:


> Solon, I am sorry you had to feel that way but I am someone who has gone through that hell and I HAVE felt his presence with me through it, so you can't really say no one has ever told you they haven't felt him with them.


I *can* say that. I don't know you. I know the people *I* have talked with in support groups. I've never heard one of them say God was with them when they asked for help. So God was with you, you're lucky then I guess. But it wasn't God that helped me out. And it wasn't God that helped out the others *I* know of.


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## Solon

Spastic_Dove said:


> I've heard this before and it seems so contradictory. God created everything. Before God, there was nothing. So therefore, God must of created evil. If God is challenging us with suicidal thoughts or the things that lead us to these thoughts, God is responsible for Pain.
> 
> 
> For whoever said God is in control of your life, according to The Bible, this isn't true. We have free will of course. What myself and others are trying to question is why we can be at that point and plead for help from God, try every possible outlet or solution, and get no answer for God.
> 
> Everyone seems to be assuming that people who commit suicide do not ask for help. Many do in very blunt and straight forward ways. Others may be more subtle, but one thing I can say I am sure of is that no one wants to feel that way and everyone wants help


It is extremely contradictory. I find it just a bit irritating that people say, well ask for God's help and he will be there for you. And I think, really? God allows evil. Isn't that nice for him to do so for his faithful, people that every single day of their lives devote their being to him. If people really thought about it, I think they'd start questioning it.

Would any one of us stand by if they saw someone they loved being harmed? Not one.


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## Spastic_Dove

Still curious as to what you believe happens in hell. 

Do you believe this punishment is a sign for a just and righteous God?


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## Solon

Me? I don't believe in hell. I believe the soul reincarnates and comes back as you keep learning life lessons.

When I was a Christian I believed hell was being separated from God.


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## Spastic_Dove

Nope, not you. The "believers" as people are referring to them (though that sounds a little post-apocalyptic to me). 
I'm a believer of reincarnation too, neat interpretation of hell


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## Surprise 623

mother elephants etc GRIEVE for thir babies but a handicapped or weak calf will stil be discarded if it is necessary


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## Spastic_Dove

Whats your point? The vast majority pick and choose what to follow in the bible because it is an outdated text. To say that thats why we get our morals is ludicrous.


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## Surprise 623

My point is this...WHERE do we get them? Why?


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## Spastic_Dove

at the most basic lavel I believe it started out as survival. Allying. Building friendships increases our networking and group support as well as mental health. The idea that if we do not harm someone, we are thus safer because they will not harm us. 

Lots and lots of trial and error that has built the basic culture of our species and allowed for us to survive and thrive.


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## Tessa T

Solon said:


> I *can* say that. I don't know you. I know the people *I* have talked with in support groups. I've never heard one of them say God was with them when they asked for help. So God was with you, you're lucky then I guess. But it wasn't God that helped me out. And it wasn't God that helped out the others *I* know of.


To be fair you never said you had to know the person, you just said you'd never heard one person say it. 

The thing is, if they were helped at all, God had a hand in it.


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## Tessa T

Spastic_Dove said:


> I've heard this before and it seems so contradictory. God created everything. Before God, there was nothing. So therefore, God must of created evil. If God is challenging us with suicidal thoughts or the things that lead us to these thoughts, God is responsible for Pain.


God created the earth, the heavens, man and beast. He gave us free will and WE are responsible for the evil in the world. Before Adam and Eve ate of the fruit, the world was evil free. He then instead of killing Adam and Eve, out of love, spared them and taught them a lesson by making them work to survive. He didn't think "Hmm, this Garden of Eden thing is going to smooth, I think it would be fun to watch chaos. I think I'll create evil." We chose to disobey God and break the one rule God had. Being naturally sinful beings we had to disobey. And the devil, a fallen angel who also had free will is the one that puts those thoughts in our minds to lead us astray, not God.


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## Surprise 623

yeah but why are we different? And you have to admit we are....no other animal attempts to preserve the weak and the old


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## Speed Racer

Surprise 623 said:


> yeah but why are we different? And you have to admit we are....no other animal attempts to preserve the weak and the old


That's not exactly true. 

Water buffalos protect their weak and old. They've been known to go back and confront lions and hyenas as a group in order to rescue a fallen comrade.

Elephants also protect the very young and the aged against predators, and have even been known to take food back to an ailing comrade.

Humans are unique in that we've been able to make the natural world conform to us, not the other way around. Animals work in conjunction with nature, and live or die based on the the vagaries of weather and food supplies. Humans have wrested quite a bit of control from the natural world and manage to survive en masse, even during natural disasters.

We _are_ unique, but not necessarily for the reasons you believe.


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## Spastic_Dove

God created the "snake" and the fig tree with the "apple". He created temptation and the evil, just warned against it. 

If we are naturally sinful, God created us that way. We had no sin until the "apple encounter". We were created in God's image according to the bible and up until then were pure. God is the one who put the temptation in the first place. 

Who created Satan then? Where did he come from?


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## wannahorse22

^^^
Thats a good question. But I think he _was _one of Gods angels...then he turned against God. Am I correct?


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## Speed Racer

C'mon Spastic, you know where Satan came from. Lucifer was one of the archangels, according to Biblical tenets. In fact, wasn't he God's favorite until he decided to rebel? 'It's better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven'.

If God is supposed to know everything, why didn't He know that Lucifer was going to rebel? And if He did, what was the purpose in letting him go through with the rebellion?

I know I sound like an atheist, but I'm not. I very much believe in God. If one believes in ultimate evil, one must necessarily also believe in ultimate good. I believe they're two halves of the same whole, not complete opposites.


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## Spastic_Dove

Exactly. He was one of God's angels created and loved by him. 

So if the fallen angel Lucifer could have greed/pride (by wanting to rule and not follow God) where did he get that from? He never ate an apple.


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## wannahorse22

I know the question was directed towards me, but I would like to answer

If God didnt let Satan _become _Satan, then where would all the sinners (or whatever you want to call them) go?


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## Speed Racer

God imbues free will into His creations, not blind obedience. I would imagine that He gave the same to His angels.

What really frosted Lucifer's tuna was that God set humankind above the angels, when they were there first. Lucifer figured _they_ were the firstborn, so shouldn't have to play second fiddle to such a flawed creation.

Of course, that's all speculation. God's angels aren't without their flaws either, if you read between the lines.


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## Spastic_Dove

Your edit said what I was trying to figure out how to say but couldn't, SR. Satan is the yin to gods yang (or yang to yin. cant remember which is which). God would have allowed it to happen because he is all knowing and all powerful. 

According to this, God and Lucifer are pretty much equal. God just rules the "light" and Satan the "dark". For good to exist, evil has to exist too in many ways. I just figure God and Satana are in cahoots with eachother. Otherwise God could just kill Satan (or however you take out a rogue angel). I still don't think this means that Satan will rule your moral compass unless you have a bible because with the help of this line of the conversation it just doesn't add up.


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## wannahorse22

Spastic_Dove said:


> Your edit said what I was trying to figure out how to say but couldn't, SR. Satan is the yin to gods yang (or yang to yin. cant remember which is which). God would have allowed it to happen because he is all knowing and all powerful.
> 
> According to this, God and Lucifer are pretty much equal. God just rules the "light" and Satan the "dark".


 
I would think that God is more powerful. I mean, he helps us on a day-to-day basis not give into temptation. Plus, Satan has not overpowered _him,_ so he must be more powerful_._

and again, if God destroyed Satan, would there even be a hell? Would people have a choice of believeing or dis-believeing, or would they just automatically go to heaven? So I think there is a reason for Satan.


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## Spastic_Dove

Because he helps us rather than tempts us, he's just the good half of the duo. Doesn't mean he's not powerful. If satan weren't powerful then he wouldnt be out there tempting people and messing with their free will. 

For the idea of heaven and hell to exist, Satan has to exist, you're right. That's why I am saying is that God and Satan are a partnership. Just like in every other religion how there is Good and Evil, one can not exist without the other.


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## wannahorse22

True, True. I guess I just feel that God is always more powerful.

Got this from a website-

Satan will not ever win. Satan's eternal fate awaits him on the Day of Judgement; the lake of fire and brimstone. Another aspect of Satan personality is that, because of his rebellion against God, he has doomed himself to a miserable existence. As a result of this he hates the rest of us so much that he wants as many of us to share in his misery as he can. He may know that he will ultimately lose the battle for control of this world, but he doesn't care as long as he can spread the misery around.

​​


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## Speed Racer

Yep Spastic, Yin and Yang, good and evil, black and white, darkness and light. We cannot have one without the other.

What people don't seem to understand is that God _gave_ Satan dominion over the Earth. Satan rules Hell, and has dominion over this world. He doesn't _rule_ the Earth, but he has the ability to sway people one way or the other.

All animals belong to God, because they have no concept of free will. They run primarily on instinct. God created angels and man to worship Him freely, not because He MADE them to just blindly follow.


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## wannahorse22

^^^

I agree. Becasue I believe that is what _seperates_ heaven from earth (other aspects too, just the main thing)


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## Spastic_Dove

Exactly the point I am trying to get across, Speed Racer. God has a level of responsibility (using that term kind of loosely) in evil. He allows it to happen even if he isn't the one causing it to happen. 

The reason I am saying is that one is not more powerful than the other is like what I said before. For evil (satan) to exist, there must be good. And vice versa. 
I don't really see Satan as being miserable. 

SR, maybe you know since I believe a few posts ago you said you believed in God. Not sure if this means you read the Bible...

But when the day of judgment does come, assuming God wins and all the believers go and live with God in heaven does the bible say what happens to free will? Can you then fall from heaven? I'm assuming that you can't rise from hell...


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## Solon

You can't have good without evil or evil without good. You'll find that in every belief system.


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## Speed Racer

Once the ultimate day of judgment comes, everyone will be judged according to God's standards. What exactly those standards_ are_ has been hotly debated by better minds than mine.

There is no mention of free will after final judgment, but I would assume it goes on. Being in a glorified state, those who have been chosen to be with God will be unable to sin. It just won't be in them to do so. Not that God will forbid it, just that they will have no desire to sin.

However, the final judgment doesn't come at the time Christ comes back a second time. Many people think that's the case, but it's not.

There will be 1,000 years of peace, during which time Christ will rule the Earth and its inhabitants. Anyone who survived the Apocalypse can make their choice to either follow God or Satan. They will still have that choice.

Once the 1,000 years of peace are up, the Earth and possibly the whole universe will be destroyed. That's when the final judgment will happen, and all who have died before will either go to Heaven with God or to Hell with Satan.

Both places will have their final number of inhabitants, and neither will be able to go from one place to the other. So if you wind up in Hell after the final judgment, you're stuck there forever.


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## Spastic_Dove

So what do you think about the OPs question, SR?

Do you go to hell if you commit suicide?


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## Speed Racer

I believe that those who are terminally ill and in unremitting pain should be allowed to die on their own terms, and at a time of their own choosing.

Do I think those people are going to Hell? No, I do not. We'll ease a suffering animal with no chance of survival out of this life, so why would it be a sin to do the same for a human being?

What I don't agree with is someone who is depressed taking their own life, when they have no other limitations due to pain or ailments.

I know all about depression. It runs rampant in my family. I have an aunt who's tried to take her own life several times. After intensive therapy and medication, she now understands that killing herself isn't an option.

I myself have been through hell and back with depression, and I just can't see using it as an excuse to kill yourself. I understand the_ attraction_, but I can't condone it. Is it a sin? I honestly don't know, because when someone is in the deepest depths of a black depression they're not thinking rationally, which in and of itself is an illness.

If _I_ won't condemn someone for killing themselves when they're not in their right mind, what more compassion do you think God has for them? After all, He loves them more than I ever could.


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## Solon

You can't see using it as an option. That doesn't mean a lot of people don't. Medication and therapy do help many. They don't help all though.

Your God's ways don't apply to others that don't follow him. So what happens to them in the afterlife may be completely different. 

The thing I've never understood about Christians is, why they can't let people follow their own Gods. Forcing their beliefs on others is just wrong. If people come willingly, great. But to tell people they are going to hell if they don't believe is beyond my understanding. And I used to be one of those people and now have a lot of guilt for it.


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## Speed Racer

Solon, what in my post led you to believe that I was condemning anyone?

My opinion is that I don't _condone_ it, but I'm certainly not going to say someone will or won't go to Hell if they take their own life.

Mental illness is as debilitating as physical illness. I most certainly understand that.

I'm not asking you to follow my beliefs, I'm merely stating what they are. Isn't that what this whole thread is about? Stating one's beliefs?


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## wannahorse22

Solon said:


> You can't see using it as an option. That doesn't mean a lot of people don't. Medication and therapy do help many. They don't help all though.
> 
> Your God's ways don't apply to others that don't follow him. So what happens to them in the afterlife may be completely different.
> 
> The thing I've never understood about Christians is, why they can't let people follow their own Gods. Forcing their beliefs on others is just wrong. If people come willingly, great. But to tell people they are going to hell if they don't believe is beyond my understanding. And I used to be one of those people and now have a lot of guilt for it.


 
What _I_ don't understand is why you make it sound like christians are the only ones that do that. Another thing I dont understand is why people have to judge others because what they believe in. Because, in the end, christan, catholic, methodist or whatever religion it is, as long as you believe there is a God that took his life to wash away our sins- we all end up in the same place- so we need to stop labeling names, and learn to like eachother.


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## Solon

Speed Racer - I'm talking in generalities about the last half of my post.

Wanna - I've only seen Christians do this. I've never seen Pagans, Hindu's, Buddhist's, Taoist's or any other religion with such a massive converting program.

Your statement is very judging. As long as they believe Good took his life to wash away their sins. That's not the belief for many religions. I've found Christians to be the most judging people in all the religions.


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## wannahorse22

that belief is the truth


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## Solon

No, it's not.


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## Speed Racer

Solon, I do agree with you about Christians being the most 'judgey pants' of all the world's religious, right up there with the extremist Islamists.

I try not to judge someone based on _my_ particular beliefs. They work for _me_. If they don't work for someone else, that's fine. 

My beliefs are an amalgamation of many things, and there are quite a few Christian doctrines which I simply cannot take to heart because I feel that they're wrong.

Ultimately, I believe that we are put in this life to help each other. That is the lesson we need to learn. Regardless of color, creed, sexual orientation, or religious affiliation, our only goal should be to help ease the suffering of others. Diversity is _good_ not evil, and it's not my place to judge or coerce someone into believing as I do.

The fact that I believe Christ is the Son of God doesn't make me better than anyone who believes He isn't. It also doesn't make my beliefs right for anyone _except_ me.


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## Solon

I really wish more people thought like you Speed!


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## Speed Racer

Solon said:


> I really wish more people thought like you Speed!


If they did, it sure would end a lot of the hate and bigotry in the world, wouldn't it? :wink:

Christ is all about _not_ judging people, and yet the first thing many folks do when they 'get religion' is start looking down their noses at folks who don't believe as they do.

I don't have the answer, I really don't. I just wish people would stop fighting over what really are inconsequential differences.


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## corinowalk

I don't know how much religion comes into it. I think people are naturally judgemental. I try my very best to not judge others but occasionally fall short. I certainly never presume to know what God thinks. 

This thread really blew up! Did anyone ever answer my query about my brother?


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## Spastic_Dove

*Bakes SR a cake and throws confetti* Thank you! 

Wanna, thats the problem that myself and many of us have. You saying "It is the truth". It is the truth as you know it. It is your faith. 

I believe Jesus was a prophet. I don't really believe his death did anything with our sins. 

My beliefs are closest to Buddhist which has nothing to do with God. I believe in reincarnation and karma and being good to those around you and performing good works. According to you, I will go to hell. That is fine. 

Whatever God is out there, I believe manisfests himself in differant ways so that people may understand him (or her). I believe in pagan gods, hindi gods, etc. I think it's all a matter of perception and the stories are greatly symbolic and made easy to understand. I believe that any of these Gods encourages an open mind and looks down upon condemning your fellow human for not believing the same thing as you. 

Heck, I dont even thing the Satanic religion is bad at its principles.


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## Spastic_Dove

Corino, I may have missed your quesion. Was yours the one about the mentally handicapped? If so that got discussed and it seemed everyone agreed that they would be saved.


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## Speed Racer

corinowalk said:


> Heres something else to think about. My brother passed away 3 years ago of an accidental overdose. He didn't intend to kill himself, but he did. How does that figure? My grandfather smoked until the day he died of lung cancer. He didn't intend to kill himself, but he did. Thats the trouble with topics like this...so much gray area!


Cori, neither of them _intended_ to kill themselves, although some people would say they got what they deserved, because your brother used illegal drugs and your grandfather smoked that old debbil, tobacco.

Do I think your brother went to Hell because he used drugs? No, I don't. Nor do I think your grandfather went to Hell because of his slow death from tobacco.

God does not judge us according to man's laws, and His ways are not our ways. So to presume what God does nor does not condemn is hubris.

I also get tired of all the doomsday prophets. WORLD GONNA END! IT'S THE END TIME AND YOU BETTA BE RIGHT BY GAWD AFORE IT HAPPENS! 

According to the Bible even _Christ_ doesn't know the exact day or hour of the Apocalypse, so how can a human being 'know' that the end times are near? Hubris, yet again.


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## Spastic_Dove

For me, the only people I think deserve to be eternally tortured ie: go to hell are those who have done the same in their lifetime. Murderers, Rapists, sex traffickers, etc. 

I like SRs answer. I can't really say what the Bible would say because of how I view it, but I think that makes a lot of sense.


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## Tennessee

Speed Racer said:


> According to the Bible even _Christ_ doesn't know the exact day or hour of the Apocalypse, so how can a human being 'know' that the end times are near? Hubris, yet again.


Well, I'm not gonna act like I know the Bible like the palm of my hand (goodness knows don't tell my mother that), but there are some indications and hints that indicate the apocalypse. It's not super specific like on this hour of the this day during this year this will happen and blah blah blah, but people think that because a couple of the events mentioned in the Bible are occurring right now or have already happened that the end is near. This tends to be on the more extremist side of Christianity, which I hope I am not leaning towards. lol. All I know is that we could go five minutes from now, or we could go five trillion years from now.


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## Solon

There was a supposed date back in the 80s. I remember members of the church were so excited that the end was near. The Preacher had to tell them to tone it down because they were scaring a lot of the younger church members with wanting the world to end to God could get here.

The things listed in Revelations have happened time and time again since the book was written and the world never ended. I think it will eventually end by way of asteroid - similar to what has already happened.


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## Spastic_Dove

The thing is that it's like Nostradamus. Apparently we all these things he predicted came true but we can only tell after the fact because we suit his predictions to current events. 
It's possible to interpret things however you want in the Bible and it changes completely if you interpret it literally or figuratively (I know people who do both). 

Besides, eventually the sun will do it's deal and earth won't be able to sustain life. The world is going to end regardless of if you believe in God or not.


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## Adonai Ace

Spastic_Dove said:


> The bible says a lot of things the church doesn't follow and the church says a lot of things that I'm sure God wouldn't endorse. Curious to hear what the Bible actually says as I've seem to have missed it in all my searching.


I also believe that if a church comes up against something in the bible that is different from their tradition than the church should change. 
I know my church is based on the bible and the bible only. 

but back to what the bible says about people who have never heard of the Gospel, or Jesus.

Rom 2:6 says that God will Judge everyone according to their works

then 

Rom 2:13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified: 
Rom 2:14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves; 

So there are people who may have never heard of Jesus or the Gospel, but they follow their conscience and "do by nature the things of the law" These people show by their works that they want to follow right not wrong if that makes sense

John 9:41, 15:22;24 also talk about while you were blind you had no sin, but now you see you do. 

meaning that until you knew better it was not sin, but once you heard you then had a choice as to whether to change or stay the same, and if you stay the same, then because you know better, it is sin.


The bible also says there is only one sin that cannot be forgiven.
Mar 3:29 but whosoever shall blaspheme against the Holy Spirit hath never forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin: 

Why?
It is the Holy Spirits job to convict us of sin and lead us to repentance, so if we ignore the Holy Spirit we never repent of our sins and change, and eventually, when we die, it is then too late to repent. that is why it is unforgivable, because God can't forgive you if you don't want it.

God doesn't want anyone to perish

Eze 33:11 Say to them: As I live, says the Lord Jehovah, I have no delight in the death of the wicked, except in the turning of the wicked from his way, and so to live. Turn, turn from your evil ways; for why will you die...

On the topics of Hell, Satan, Death and the end of time i don't have time to go through it all, but if anyone is interested, please look at this website
Amazing Facts - Christian Media Ministry there is a free library covering many different topics and it is all 100% bible based. on this website you can also email in questions which the pastors will answer straight from the bible for you.
or
It Is Written - Home
both these websites have free bible studies and podcasts on every topic of the bible.


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## Surprise 623

Don't think any ONE has the answer but what a great forum!


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## Solon

The bible has so many inconsistencies. That was one of the things I was never able to overcome.


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## Adonai Ace

When read properly, taken in context and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the bible has no inconsistencies


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## Tessa T

Solon said:


> I really wish more people thought like you Speed!


See you say that we, Christians, are the most pushy, judgmental, etc. Still Its more common of everyone else labeling us all mindless Bible Thumpers. You say we push you to our religion, but I' guessing most who absolutely refuse to look at Christianity as a belief get that way by hearing everyone going "Oh ,they're obnoxious pushy, mindless followers of some dead guy." 

I feel like SR. I believe with my whole heart in my Lord and I never tried to push that on anyone, I just couldn't stand there and let you guys say he doesn't care enough to stop someone from killing themselves, or help them before they get to that place. Don't lump us all together and think Speed Racer(As much as I respect her post) is the only person that believes and doesn't shove it down your throat. There are some crazies that claim to be Christians that kill in the name of Christ! I think this is horrid and know that God does not condone this. There is obviously a few screws loose there, because if they read the Bible the whole " Thou Shalt NOT Kill" would be a clue as to if God is actually telling them to take human life. By the way you say "The Christians" it makes me feel like I'm lumped into all of them. Good, bad or indifferent. Well "Christians" are not the only ones that can be really pushy. Last time I checked I don't remember Christians asking if someone believe in Jesus an if the answer was no, chopping off their heads without hearing anything else. Like Islamic Extremists. Now I am smart enough not to lump all Muslims into one category and say they all kill non-believers. I respect their right to worship their God in peace as much As I do mine. Why does no one address Mormonism or Scientology. Why is it that Christians get the bad rap, regardless of our INDIVIDUAL look on our relationship with our God?


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## HowClever

Christian's get the bad rap because Christianity is one of the oldest religions, and therefore has a very long, blood stained history.

By no means am I saying all Christians are like that, but unfortunately, with a history the likes of Christianity it is too be expected that a reputation follows. 

As far as Mormons go, and this may be one of those rare exceptions (just like Christians have), but I vividly remember an experience when I was a kid. We had 2 mormon men knock on our door to "convert" us. My Mum is a devout Catholic. Those 2 mormon men spent the next few months calling on us every week, not to continue to try and convert us, as Mum had made it very clear what she believed, but too sit and discuss the differences and similarities in their religions. It was about the only time I have seen 2 religions co-exist so peacefully in my life.


----------



## Solon

Adonai Ace said:


> When read properly, taken in context and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the bible has no inconsistencies


Really?

This site will give you a few of them. 

Bible Inconsistencies: Bible Contradictions?


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## Spastic_Dove

Tessa, the reason is probably because of the huge scale of the religion in the country and how public it is in every day life and politics. Not excusing it just giving why I think it is the case. Many current hot button issues are between Christians and "non beleivers". I have had many Christians ask if I believe in Jesus and when I say no jump down my throat no questions asked. About 20 minutes ago at my dinner table was the most recent. I understand it's not always the case.


As far as inconcistancies in the bible there are many. 
The biggest being "Thou shall not Kill" and then the glorification and condoning of killing throughout the Bible. 

I also question why people who say the bible is the irrefutable word of God pick and choose what to follow in the Bible.


----------



## Tessa T

Spastic_Dove said:


> Tessa, the reason is probably because of the huge scale of the religion in the country and how public it is in every day life and politics. Not excusing it just giving why I think it is the case. Many current hot button issues are between Christians and "non beleivers". I have had many Christians ask if I believe in Jesus and when I say no jump down my throat no questions asked. About 20 minutes ago at my dinner table was the most recent. I understand it's not always the case.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> That is true, but as people who say its wrong to judge all non-believers and say they're all pagans going to hell, it seems the same to judge all of the believers and say they'll all jump down your throat and condemn you.(Not saying that's what you said) Seems the "judging" is one in the same, just a different outlook.


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## Adonai Ace

Solon said:


> Really?


Yes really,

and like the killing in the OT, when read up on completely, you will see it said that the cup of their iniquity was filled. they had many chances to know God (through the hebrew nation) and still continued in their wrong ways.
God gives everyone chance after chance, until finally they completely tune out the Holy Spirit. 
even the hebrews eventually tuned out the Holy Spirit, although there was a remnant that remained true, and these were saved.
also you will find that if in the other nations that were destroyed if there was any among them that believed, they were saved as well.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 

2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 

Yes it is easy for us to misinterpret the scriptures, that is the Devil's delight to cause people to do.


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## Spastic_Dove

No, it's certainly not right Tessa. I agree. That's why I think this is a great thread. It's a discussion and I don't think anyone has jumped down anyone elses throat and I know I personally have learned from it so I hope other people have too.


----------



## Solon

Tessa T said:


> See you say that we, Christians, are the most pushy, judgmental, etc. Still Its more common of everyone else labeling us all mindless Bible Thumpers. You say we push you to our religion, but I' guessing most who absolutely refuse to look at Christianity as a belief get that way by hearing everyone going "Oh ,they're obnoxious pushy, mindless followers of some dead guy."


No I think it's because most of them are obnoxious pushy mindless followers. I think you'll find many people don't convert because they've spent time doing research and learned the truth on their own. One of those truths being that the Christian faith is largely based on Pagan beliefs. A lot of Christians don't like hearing that, but it's true.



Tessa T said:


> I feel like SR. I believe with my whole heart in my Lord and I never tried to push that on anyone, I just couldn't stand there and let you guys say he doesn't care enough to stop someone from killing themselves, or help them before they get to that place.


It is what it is, which for the most part true based on my experience. I know a few Christians that have killed themselves. Explain that one if he wasn't there to help them before they got to that place. You can't, because he wasn't.



Tessa T said:


> Don't lump us all together and think Speed Racer(As much as I respect her post) is the only person that believes and doesn't shove it down your throat.


Her reply was the only one I really saw indicative of not being one of those people.



Tessa T said:


> There are some crazies that claim to be Christians that kill in the name of Christ! I think this is horrid and know that God does not condone this. There is obviously a few screws loose there, because if they read the Bible the whole " Thou Shalt NOT Kill" would be a clue as to if God is actually telling them to take human life.


How do you explain The Crusades then? That was done in the name of Christ by Christians. Or the witch hunts. Also done by Christians. Yes, there are extremists in many beliefs, but for a religion that has Thou Shall Not Kill as a mainstay of the religion, there was sure a lot of killing going on.




Tessa T said:


> By the way you say "The Christians" it makes me feel like I'm lumped into all of them. Good, bad or indifferent. Well "Christians" are not the only ones that can be really pushy. Last time I checked I don't remember Christians asking if someone believe in Jesus an if the answer was no, chopping off their heads without hearing anything else. Like Islamic Extremists.


You are lumped in there as I'm lumped with the rest of the 'heretics', 'non-believers' or 'insert whatever name you want'. 



Tessa T said:


> Now I am smart enough not to lump all Muslims into one category and say they all kill non-believers. I respect their right to worship their God in peace as much As I do mine. Why does no one address Mormonism or Scientology. Why is it that Christians get the bad rap, regardless of our INDIVIDUAL look on our relationship with our God?


Because Mormons and Scientologists weren't brought up into the conversation as Christianity was. It's the same thing. I think Mormons do more converting than the Scientologists but it may differ by area. 

As an individual you are still a part of the whole. Sure there are exceptions. Whether it's Christianity, Buddhism, Paganism, Atheists to probably. But when you identify yourself with that belief, people do base it on the belief as a whole, not necessarily that you have differing views from that belief.


----------



## Solon

Adonai Ace said:


> Yes really,
> 
> and like the killing in the OT, when read up on completely, you will see it said that the cup of their iniquity was filled. they had many chances to know God (through the hebrew nation) and still continued in their wrong ways.
> God gives everyone chance after chance, until finally they completely tune out the Holy Spirit.
> even the hebrews eventually tuned out the Holy Spirit, although there was a remnant that remained true, and these were saved.
> also you will find that if in the other nations that were destroyed if there was any among them that believed, they were saved as well.
> 
> 2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
> 
> 2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
> 
> Yes it is easy for us to misinterpret the scriptures, that is the Devil's delight to cause people to do.


Read the website I added and then tell me there isn't inconsistencies. It wasn't the Devil that wrote the Bible, it was man. Now wouldn't God want his word to be consistent?


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## Solon

Double post sorry!


----------



## Tessa T

HowClever said:


> Christian's get the bad rap because Christianity is one of the oldest religions, and therefore has a very long, blood stained history.
> 
> By no means am I saying all Christians are like that, but unfortunately, with a history the likes of Christianity it is too be expected that a reputation follows.
> 
> As far as Mormons go, and this may be one of those rare exceptions (just like Christians have), but I vividly remember an experience when I was a kid. We had 2 mormon men knock on our door to "convert" us. My Mum is a devout Catholic. Those 2 mormon men spent the next few months calling on us every week, not to continue to try and convert us, as Mum had made it very clear what she believed, but too sit and discuss the differences and similarities in their religions. It was about the only time I have seen 2 religions co-exist so peacefully in my life.


 
That is a good thing that both sides were able to come together and talk about things. On the other hand, I experienced quite the opposite a few years ago. 3 Mormons, 1 older and 2 younger ones came to our door and knocked for 5 minutes till we answered. We let them pitch, explained peacefully what we believed and told them good luck and they almost forced their way in and my Dad being nice let them sit down and talk to us. They wouldn't leave! After they finally left, they called and left brochures and just about stalked us for a few weeks. I'm not saying that your experience didn't happen, and I'm grateful for it, I'm just stating that many different things regarding religion happen. No one is the same. Unless you're the Borge.lol It is unfair to say we are all the same, mindlessly converting anyone and everyone, just because. The Crusades were hundreds of years ago, it seems silly to even compare Christians today to the ones now who aren't completely bonkers.


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## Solon

Why is it silly? The bible was written a long time ago and those Crusades were based off the bible. So if the bible is still relevant what was done in it's name and the name of Christianity is absolutely relevant.

You say it's silly because you don't have a better response for what happened.

Those people weren't bonkers. They were devout Christians who thought they were doing exactly what God expected them to do. I've studied medieval history for years. I have several books on Saladin. One being called God's Warriors by Dr. Helen Nicholson and Dr. David Nicolle. It's a really interesting read.


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## Spastic_Dove

Adonai-- I understand what you are saying and in the case of blasphemy and the similar I can see where this theory would be correct. I always thought "Thou shall not kill" is very definitive. Seems like it's more like "Thou shall not kill except when..." 

Leviticus 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. Leviticus 20:27 NAB

All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. Leviticus 20:9 

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. Leviticus 21:9 


Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." Deuteronomy 13:13-19 

^ This says that if one town has a non-believer, the whole town must be punished. Thoughts?


evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. Deuteronomy 22:20-21

...keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' Exodus 31:12-15

-----------
There are many more, including killing of children which makes me think they can not be blasphemers.


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## HowClever

Tessa T said:


> The Crusades were hundreds of years ago, it seems silly to even compare Christians today to the ones now who aren't completely bonkers.


I am going to respectfully disagree here. We as human beings are all shaped by our history. Christianity and it's followers would not be what they are today, if not for the events of the past. 

And there are still plenty of completely bonkers christians out there. What of those who will beat a person to death for being gay?


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## Starlet

Tessa T, I think that that was well put. 

As a christian, I don't think others should atomaticlly assume that that we try and shove others into christianity. I an thrilled when someone accepts the Lord as their savior and becomes another sister or brother in faith. I also accept others that are unbelievers and respect their religions or theories. Unbelievers seem to stamp a steriotype on christians like we are some large army of people who turn up their noses and hate anyone who isn't like them. There probably are christians like that, but not all are. The christian community that I live in is very peaceful. Most christians are. In a muslim extremist family in the middle east, if a family member converted to another religion, they are killed, sometimes by their own family. Most christians, like the people in my community, would be devistated if someone converted religions or lost their faith, but they would still be loved by their family and community and would be accepted. Most children in my community go to a seperate school and stay together with their friends of the same religion. Me, my sibings, a few friends of the same religion go to a public school with a lot of unbelievers and we are constantly labeled and criticized. Like how I was telling a girl about my new puppy named Tulip and she said "ha I would've thought that you would have named her Jesus or some other name like that that you bible people use." We have also been called the "scandinavian terrorists" and such. But we pray for them, and we keep strong in our faith. I just don't think that christians should be labeled and looked down upon as poeple who don't understand "the truth" or are "blind to what really happened" or "christians hate all gay people" and say that "the church is full of lies" or whatever others are saying. We as christians for the most part, accept unbelievers but it seem as though in the modern today, we yet in return are not accepted by the unbelievers which I think is sad.


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## Spastic_Dove

Starlet said:


> Unbelievers seem to stamp a steriotype on christians like we are some large army of people who turn up their noses and hate anyone who isn't like them.


Goes both ways


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## Solon

A lot of the unbelievers you talk about are previous Christians. I think it is fantastic that there are those who aren't what a lot of people see as Christians. The ones that can accept that not everyone is a Christian and will not tell those people they are going to Hell.

Speed was right. If there really were more of those people then I don't think there would be so many problems. But most 'non-believers' seem to get the interaction with the ones that are not like you and Speed, and yeah, it does shed a very bad light on the group as a whole.


----------



## Redial

It's a hard one, I'm a christian but suicide is a very personal thing mostly and God judges the heart so to condemn someone to hell for trying to escape possibly hell on earth is not so easy and black and white. There is no way to know.


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## Tessa T

My answers are in bold.


Solon said:


> No I think it's because most of them are obnoxious pushy mindless followers. I think you'll find many people don't convert because they've spent time doing research and learned the truth on their own. One of those truths being that the Christian faith is largely based on Pagan beliefs. A lot of Christians don't like hearing that, but it's true.
> 
> *I am open to hearing what you mean, I'm not scared of it. Go ahead.*
> 
> It is what it is, which for the most part true based on my experience. I know a few Christians that have killed themselves. Explain that one if he wasn't there to help them before they got to that place. You can't, because he wasn't.
> 
> *I can't go back to the time when they killed themselves and know what their relationship with God was, neither can you. Don't attempt to speak for them or God.*
> 
> 
> Her reply was the only one I really saw indicative of not being one of those people.
> 
> *I think it was because her reply was the only one that didn't challenge you. I feel like her, yet you couldn't see that through all of the trying to defend yourself*.
> 
> 
> How do you explain The Crusades then? That was done in the name of Christ by Christians. Or the witch hunts. Also done by Christians. Yes, there are extremists in many beliefs, but for a religion that has Thou Shall Not Kill as a mainstay of the religion, there was sure a lot of killing going on.
> 
> *I have addressed this before. People who read the word and take what they want from it come up with their own ideas on what it means an execute their own plans. They were lost and needed to really think on what they were doing. It was wrong, but it happened unfortunately. No one can change it.*
> 
> 
> You are lumped in there as I'm lumped with the rest of the 'heretics', 'non-believers' or 'insert whatever name you want'.
> 
> *I don't think you are a heretic or pagan or "whatever name I want". *
> *I just think the people who label based on some crazy people with a Bible and bloody sword should be compared to peaceful worshipers today. You lump me in with all Christian, dead or living. I don't lump you in with anyone.*
> 
> 
> Because Mormons and Scientologists weren't brought up into the conversation as Christianity was. It's the same thing. I think Mormons do more converting than the Scientologists but it may differ by area.
> 
> As an individual you are still a part of the whole. Sure there are exceptions. Whether it's Christianity, Buddhism, Paganism, Atheists to probably. But when you identify yourself with that belief, people do base it on the belief as a whole, not necessarily that you have differing views from that belief.


*Well they should, all my Christian brothers and sisters tell people about our Lord and if they refuse to listen, cuss us out or ignore us all together, its sad, but we don't make them do, say or believe anything.*


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## Spastic_Dove

Tessa T said:


> *Well they should, all my Christian brothers and sisters tell people about our Lord and if they refuse to listen, cuss us out or ignore us all together, its sad, but we don't make them do, say or believe anything.*


I think this is what bothers a lot of people. Or at the very least it bothers me. Christians are not the only ones where this is a part of their religions. Like mentioned, the Mormans do it as well. These are the two groups I have experienced but there may be more where converting is part of the religion.

Unless I ask a question, I don't want you to have to tell me about your beliefs. I grew up in the church. I have researched various religions. I identifiy with Pagans. Buddhists, and yes, parts of Christianity. 

If I ask, by all means tell me your opinions (like this thread ) but it's like telling someone they're training their horse wrong. No one likes unsolicited advice especially when it is taught as being truth where everything else is wrong (happens a lot. not saying you do it) rather than being your personal belief and faith.


----------



## Tessa T

Solon said:


> Why is it silly? The bible was written a long time ago and those Crusades were based off the bible. So if the bible is still relevant what was done in it's name and the name of Christianity is absolutely relevant.
> 
> You say it's silly because you don't have a better response for what happened.
> 
> Those people weren't bonkers. They were devout Christians who thought they were doing exactly what God expected them to do. I've studied medieval history for years. I have several books on Saladin. One being called God's Warriors by Dr. Helen Nicholson and Dr. David Nicolle. It's a really interesting read.


It IS silly to say that just because the people back then took what they thought God was telling them to do and executed thousands in whatever form, Crusades, Witch hunts, mass murders etc., that Christians today who had NOTHING to do with it should be hated or feared for it. 

Killing in the name of a God that wants us to tell him of his love and pray for our fellow brothers and sisters is bonkers. And lets be honest, a group of sword wielding Christians, didn't just decide to cross the desert and kill innocent children. The Popes and people in power told them to take back the "Holy Land" from the Muslims who had invaded it. They were brainwashed by the people in power, just like today, into believing they were doing "God's Will".


----------



## Solon

Wow. That's all I can really find to say about your response.


----------



## Solon

_I think it was because her reply was the only one that didn't challenge you. I feel like her, yet you couldn't see that through all of the trying to defend yourself.
_

It didn't seem like it was the same. At least you didn't present yourself in the same manner. So, I apologize by insinuating you were like the rest. And hers had nothing to with challenging me. She just has a very good way of presenting her thoughts.


----------



## Tessa T

Spastic_Dove said:


> I think this is what bothers a lot of people. Or at the very least it bothers me. Christians are not the only ones where this is a part of their religions. Like mentioned, the Mormans do it as well. These are the two groups I have experienced but there may be more where converting is part of the religion.
> 
> Unless I ask a question, I don't want you to have to tell me about your beliefs. I grew up in the church. I have researched various religions. I identifiy with Pagans. Buddhists, and yes, parts of Christianity.
> 
> If I ask, by all means tell me your opinions (like this thread ) but it's like telling someone they're training their horse wrong. No one likes unsolicited advice especially when it is taught as being truth where everything else is wrong (happens a lot. not saying you do it) rather than being your personal belief and faith.


I respect you. I think you are right in that people don't like being told someone's beliefs without asking. And I don't. I have never just up and preached to someone after meeting them, but I mean when it comes up. If someone is sitting there bashing my God I will talk about it and defend my belief, like any other.
My boyfriend is Agnostic and we get along wonderfully. Sure I have on occasion told him about the Lord and he has told me his reasons for not being fully sure what he believes. We debate and discuss. We respect each other, like Christians, Pagans, Buddhists, Agnostics, Muslims, Catholics, Jews, Mormons, Scientologists and any other religions should.


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## Solon

Spastic - that's the word I was looking for!! Unsolicited. Exactly that.


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## Tessa T

Solon said:


> Wow. That's all I can really find to say about your response.


Wow because you do believe all Christians should take the blame for what was done years and years ago by confused people killing in the name of God?


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## Spastic_Dove

I do agree with you Tessa in many respects. 
I have many open minded religious friends who just live by being a good person. If I ask about their beliefs, they'll tell me about them but they won't force them. 
I don't automatically think someone is a bad person if they tell me they believe in God. 

However the church is still corrupt, it didn't end after the crusades. As I quoted, the Bible does promote murder in many instances.
If I do judge a religion based on the past, it's not the crusades, witch hunts, or murdering of women. It's the persecution that is going on today and in this decade.
I will admit that the majority of the people I talk to about religion are brain washed and unwilling to hear other opinions. Again, I still don't think this represents the entire religion. 

To say that the church isn't corrupt right now though is ignorance. 
You can say that God is not corrupt, but the church certainly is.


EDIT: If someone is talking trash about your religion, by all means defend it. It's when it comes out of nowhere I dislike it. Being told to pray or ask God for help whenever I come to someone for advice or being told I am going to hell if I voice my own beliefs.


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## Solon

No, I mean wow - because those people truly believe in their hearts they were doing God's work. They truly believed and went to their deaths for God. For you to say they were bonkers is really horrible.


----------



## Tennessee

Spastic_Dove said:


> I think this is what bothers a lot of people. Or at the very least it bothers me. Christians are not the only ones where this is a part of their religions. Like mentioned, the Mormans do it as well. These are the two groups I have experienced but there may be more where converting is part of the religion.
> 
> Unless I ask a question, I don't want you to have to tell me about your beliefs. I grew up in the church. I have researched various religions. I identifiy with Pagans. Buddhists, and yes, parts of Christianity.
> 
> If I ask, by all means tell me your opinions (like this thread ) but it's like telling someone they're training their horse wrong. No one likes unsolicited advice especially when it is taught as being truth where everything else is wrong (happens a lot. not saying you do it) rather than being your personal belief and faith.


I agree. I'm a Christian myself, but it really irritates me when I see other Christians practically forcing their beliefs down other people's throats. I don't understand why they think this will bring people closer to God. In fact, I think when you force something upon someone like that then it only pushes them farther away. 

I've always been the kind of Christian that if asked, will tell you that I am a follower of Jesus, and leave it at that. If a person is curious about more than just that, then I will tell them to the best of my ability. 

I also find it funny that other Christians aren't open to listening to other people's beliefs. I guess it is because they are so insecure in their own beliefs. I'm very firm with my faith, therefore I LOVE hearing what other people believe. I think Hinduism and their belief in reincarnation is fascinating to learn about. I also love to learn more about the Native American tribes and how they are so at one with the Earth. Neat stuff, it is.


----------



## Tessa T

Spastic_Dove said:


> I do agree with you Tessa in many respects.
> I have many open minded religious friends who just live by being a good person. If I ask about their beliefs, they'll tell me about them but they won't force them.
> I don't automatically think someone is a bad person if they tell me they believe in God.
> 
> However the church is still corrupt, it didn't end after the crusades. As I quoted, the Bible does promote murder in many instances.
> If I do judge a religion based on the past, it's not the crusades, witch hunts, or murdering of women. It's the persecution that is going on today and in this decade.
> I will admit that the majority of the people I talk to about religion are brain washed and unwilling to hear other opinions. Again, I still don't think this represents the entire religion.
> 
> To say that the church isn't corrupt right now though is ignorance.
> You can say that God is not corrupt, but the church certainly is.


Completely agree. The church is definitely corrupt. The only thing that is truly pure is our individual relationship with God. Everything else can and is corrupted by selfish, ignorant people that are either in it to make a buck or in it for the power.


----------



## Tessa T

Tennessee said:


> I agree. I'm a Christian myself, but it really irritates me when I see other Christians practically forcing their beliefs down other people's throats. I don't understand why they think this will bring people closer to God. In fact, I think when you force something upon someone like that then it only pushes them farther away.
> 
> I've always been the kind of Christian that if asked, will tell you that I am a follower of Jesus, and leave it at that. If a person is curious about more than just that, then I will tell them to the best of my ability.
> 
> I also find it funny that other Christians aren't open to listening to other people's beliefs. I guess it is because they are so insecure in their own beliefs. I'm very firm with my faith, therefore I LOVE hearing what other people believe. I think Hinduism and their belief in reincarnation is fascinating to learn about. I also love to learn more about the Native American tribes and how they are so at one with the Earth. Neat stuff, it is.


 Thank you! I am a very curious person and enjoy learning as well. I love the Native American history and traditions. I could not agree with your post more.


----------



## Solon

Tennessee that was a really wonderful reply. You show a lot of depth in it. I can't remember hearing a Christian say they were interested in hearing about reincarnation.


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## Spastic_Dove

Not to mention, when you learn about religions other than your own you'll be amazed in the similarities.


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## Tessa T

Solon said:


> No, I mean wow - because those people truly believe in their hearts they were doing God's work. They truly believed and went to their deaths for God. For you to say they were bonkers is really horrible.


I wasn't speaking of the people who gave their lives. I was speaking of the "religious" people in power that sat at home while others were murdered. They are the crazy, selfish, power hungry maniacs responsible for it.


----------



## Tennessee

Solon said:


> Tennessee that was a really wonderful reply. You show a lot of depth in it. I can't remember hearing a Christian say they were interested in hearing about reincarnation.


I so am.  My hairdresser believes in reincarnation, and one day we got to talking about it, and I never realized how interesting it was. I was going to check out a couple of books at the library about it, but my parents wouldn't stand for it.


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## Solon

You didn't say that though. You said they were bonkers. Which made me wonder if you even know why the Crusades began.

ETA: this reply is to Tessa.


----------



## Solon

Tennessee said:


> I so am.  My hairdresser believes in reincarnation, and one day we got to talking about it, and I never realized how interesting it was. I was going to check out a couple of books at the library about it, but my parents wouldn't stand for it.


I can understand that! Follow the rules of your parents while you are at home, but I'd encourage you to do research on it when you are at liberty to do so. It is a really fascinating study. I first really learned about it when I was taking World Religion classes in college (was still a Christian).


----------



## Tessa T

Solon said:


> You didn't say that though. You said they were bonkers. Which made me wonder if you even know why the Crusades began.


Well now you know.

Bottom line is that we are all fighting the same war. The war to being understood and respected for our own beliefs, differences and similarities.
I have checked out several books from the library and searched the web for information about Pagan rituals, reincarnation, Buddhism(a religion I really respect) an a few other religions. The only reason I started posting here is because I saw posts saying God doesn't care, I had to respond. I did not do so to stuff it down anyone's throat. Those people bug me to no end.


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## Spastic_Dove

Ooh. If you have any questions about Paganism or Buddhism I'd love to share what I know.  They're the two closest to my heart.


----------



## Solon

Tessa T said:


> Well now you know.


Then why didn't you say that and alleviate the confusion? The posts about God not caring is exactly what I was saying about being on the edge of taking your life and pleading him to be there and he wasn't. That pretty much seems like not caring to me.


Spastic - I've studied a lot of Paganism but not so much Buddhism - do you have websites that you would recommend.


----------



## Tessa T

Spastic_Dove said:


> Ooh. If you have any questions about Paganism or Buddhism I'd love to share what I know.  They're the two closest to my heart.


Okay, cool.  I have one. What does the Pagan belief system say happens to you after death. 

One thing I find interesting is that When someone closed-minded hears the word "Pagan" they automatically think dirty men and women jumping around a fire holing dead babies and screaming evil things, when really the word "Pagan" means "Of the country; rustic". And many Pagans are like Native Americans in that they believe in all things having a spirit, which I think is beautiful.


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## Tessa T

Solon said:


> Then why didn't you say that and alleviate the confusion? The posts about God not caring is exactly what I was saying about being on the edge of taking your life and pleading him to be there and he wasn't. That pretty much seems like not caring to me.
> 
> 
> Spastic - I've studied a lot of Paganism but not so much Buddhism - do you have websites that you would recommend.


Um, I did. I said the Popes and people in power told them they were doing the will of God. Not that some Christians just got up and decided to kill.


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## Spastic_Dove

Exactly. Some pagans do still "dance naked in the woods" but it is nothing like the media portrays it. Pagan is also a pretty broad term. Wiccan, Druid, celtic...they're all differant but all pagan. 

Most pagans do believe in reincarnation. Some believe it is a continual cycle while others think that you are reincarnated until you have completed your task in life and lived to the fullest. Some believe that when we get to this state, we become part of the spirit of the earth.


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## Solon

You do realize that Crusades came about because Islam was working toward consuming the Christian lands and the Christian faith right? Those people in power (though Pope Urbans motives are suspect) responded to that threat against Christianity.


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## Spastic_Dove

I'd love to! I've been pretty spoiled because there is a monestary near me. Much of my knowledge of Pagans and Buddists come from individuals but here are some good websites on the basics:

An Introduction to Buddhism

BuddhaNet - Worldwide Buddhist Information and Education Network



The religion of Buddhism


----------



## Solon

Spastic_Dove said:


> Exactly. Some pagans do still "dance naked in the woods" but it is nothing like the media portrays it. Pagan is also a pretty broad term. Wiccan, Druid, celtic...they're all differant but all pagan.


Mostly its dancing with clothes on unless you are one of the Dianic pagans then it's a girl naked dancing thing!

I always loved the a A Witch can be a Pagan but not all Pagans are Witches. That often throws people for a loop!


----------



## Tessa T

Solon said:


> You do realize that Crusades came about because Islam was working toward consuming the Christian lands and the Christian faith right? Those people in power (though Pope Urbans motives are suspect) responded to that threat against Christianity.


Yes, I do. But thanks for the reminder.


----------



## Solon

Spastic_Dove said:


> I'd love to! I've been pretty spoiled because there is a monestary near me. Much of my knowledge of Pagans and Buddists come from individuals but here are some good websites on the basics:
> 
> An Introduction to Buddhism
> 
> BuddhaNet - Worldwide Buddhist Information and Education Network
> 
> 
> 
> The religion of Buddhism



There's a monestary in Montana? How cool is that? I figured you'd have to go to India or somewhere like that. Thanks for the links. 

I stayed at a hotel in Seattle once that had a Christian bible and another bible. I can't remember what kind of bible it was, I'm thinking buddhist - but not sure. It was some pretty amazing reading. I stayed up half the night reading it then forgot to write down what it was and haven't been able to figure it out sense. :-(


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## Spastic_Dove

Yep! This is the one by me: Namdroling Tibetan Buddhist Center in Bozeman Montana They're Tibetian. 

Not sure where you are but...

Oregon Buddhist Temple

http://www.meditationinoregon.org/


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## Solon

Dang - in Oregon too?! Gees. I guess that would make sense that there would be temples in the states. I have no idea why I thought you would have to travel overseas to see them! Thanks!!


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## Spastic_Dove

Haha. There's tons. And some really good podcasts and internet seminars. 

The Ashrams are normally still in India but I think there may be one in California too. 
More often than not you can find temples or classes nearby and then just go on a pilgrimage of sorts to India.


----------



## AmberPick

My viewpoints on suicide are pretty old fashioned. There are so many people who take their life for granted. I'm sorry, but anyone in America or any developed country that commits suicide is weak and selfish in my opinion. Do you know how many people starve to death? They don't kill themselves, even though they literally cannot function because they don't have food, they FIGHT to live and these people think that there life is so horrible it's worth dying over?

About the only thing I could see being a time when I wouldn't think down of someone committing suicide is if they lose their only child. But then again, in my head, I don't know if you go to heaven or hell if you committ suicide, so why run the risk of never seeing them again?

I would never say something to someone who had a family member committ suicide or ridicule someone who tried to committ suicide. Mistakes happen. But in my head, anyone who committs suicide for the sake of mental unhappiness clearly belongs in a mental hospital and the only justification is that they are chemically imbalanced or something.

Not that I don't have sympathy, but I have no tolerance for it, either.


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## Spastic_Dove

I have attempted to commit suicide as well as had a family member and a friend commit suicide. You just called me and those people weak. To me that is ridiculing it. 
That's fine you don't think it is a good solution. Neither do I. But try and be a bit less judgmental in your thoughts. Or at least more tactful about them.


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## AmberPick

-- and the talking about God not 'saving people' who are going to committ suicide.. 

I view it this way (and you don't have to agree) while we are on Earth we view things with tunnel vision. When you get to heaven, it's like you just put on glasses and have 20/20 for the first time. You realize that earthly goods don't matter, and you realize that the 100 years you spend on Earth (happy or unhappy) is nothing in comparison to the eternity you spend in Heaven.

Now if you don't believe in heaven I can definitely understand why you wouldn't believe this!

I have never been a 'true Christian' according to most, because my family was Irish-Catholic until they kicked my Aunt out for getting pregnant and not marrying the guy. So I went to Sunday school as a kid (in a non-denom Christian Church) and I stopped after that. I went through my phases where I thought I was atheist, but I always remember the day I asked Jesus into my heart and regardless of how someone else feels about that, I really look at that day as the first day I wasn't alone, and I was completely serious when I did that.. 

It's good to ask questions. It's GREAT to ask questions. But there comes a point where you start thinking, really is there any way to prove anything? Because scientists say so? Because a book says so? Follow how YOU truely feel.


----------



## Spastic_Dove

I can agree with the notion that your eyes are opened in the after life. That makes sense to me. The problem people were talking about though is praying for help when they are suicidal and not getting any. Sure you can say that you only have to get through your human lifespan which is nothing in an eternal sense but it's a heck of a lot in the human sense.


----------



## HowClever

AmberPick said:


> I would never say something to someone who had a family member committ suicide or ridicule someone who tried to committ suicide. Mistakes happen. But in my head, anyone who committs suicide for the sake of mental unhappiness clearly belongs in a mental hospital and the only justification is that they are chemically imbalanced or something.
> 
> Not that I don't have sympathy, but I have no tolerance for it, either.


I attempted it. A couple of times. I also tried to get myself hospitalised to get help and they wouldn't admit me. 

There was an awful lot of judgement in your post.


----------



## AmberPick

Spastic_Dove said:


> I have attempted to commit suicide as well as had a family member and a friend commit suicide. You just called me and those people weak. To me that is ridiculing it.
> That's fine you don't think it is a good solution. Neither do I. But try and be a bit less judgmental in your thoughts. Or at least more tactful about them.


To start off - the reason I said it is weak is because someone at the beginning said it is not weak, it is brave. I believe the total opposite. As I said, I have _sympathy_ for anyone who has dealt with suicide, attempted suicide, or even thought of suicide, because really who hasn't? But that doesn't mean that I can't say a person is being weak when they decide there is something so bad that they need to end their life over it.

I didn't mean to offend you, but don't think that I wouldn't say the same thing to my best friend. I have a few experiences with suicide and attempted suicide, but I most remember being about 17 and reading one of my mom's diaries about how she had a specific tree picked out on the side of the road and someday she was going to crash into it. Her biggest problem was her own self esteem. When you have three kids and a husband who love you, to me that's weak. I'm not some person who doesn't understand it and is just talking down on people with bad lives. I have a cousin who was my best friend who I found out was raped for four years of her life by her babysitter and also her oldest brother. She came to me and finally told me when we were 18. Then she talked about suicide. You know what I told her? That if she committed suicide she would be letting them get the best of her and yes, I said it would be weak. What makes you strong is overcoming adversity.

Me saying weak doesn't mean I'm saying 'bad person' or something along those lines. I'm saying they gave up, decided they couldn't fight the battle anymore. To me that doesn't make them strong.


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## Spastic_Dove

The way you speak about it and say "Who hasn't" shows me you do not understand it. There is a difference between fleeting thoughts of suicide and having a clear plan of how to do it or trying it. 

Have you ever been raped? I have. I am trying to type clearly hear but I am having a very difficult way with how you are presenting your thoughts. By saying they are weak, you are implying that it is easy to be strong. That anyone can just go on after being raped for FOUR YEARS and be okay. 

This is why people are afraid of asking for help. 
I don't think you're a bad person. I think you're very ignorant.


----------



## AmberPick

HowClever said:


> I attempted it. A couple of times. I also tried to get myself hospitalised to get help and they wouldn't admit me.
> 
> There was an awful lot of judgement in your post.


There is no judgement in my post - you're all assuming that I know nothing of it. To me the people who were weak were those who weren't helping you. And just because someone is weak at one point does not mean they can't become strong again. The people I have the utmost respect for are people who have been through hell and back and have the scars to prove it.

I went through a faze where I was enamored with death. I couldn't figure out what the point of life was. No matter how nice the things around me were, the feeling inside never matched. I started popping pills, cutting myself to feel good because I thought I did something to deserve that. Then one night I got a high that scared the hell out of me. And I never did it again because it made me realize there is nothing worth losing my life over.

So if you think I'm sitting here judging people who committ suicide or even consider suicide you are wrong. I am saying they are _weak_ because _I_ was weak. I can't even imagine feeling that way because I'm so _blessed_ with the little things around me.


----------



## Spastic_Dove

Again. Please try and reword your statements then because the way you are portraying yourself comes off as very ignorant. 

By saying 'You are weak' it comes off as you are weak as a person and what you are going through is not difficult. 
The fact of the matter is that I am a extremely strong person. But at that moment, I no longer had the will to be strong any longer. That does not make me a weak person. It is important in such a subject to make the distinction.


----------



## AmberPick

I'm going to stop commenting on this because at this point I don't think anything I say is going to help in any way, and I'm not trying to make anyone feel less about themself. I stated my opinion and clearly I didn't give enough information to make ya'll feel comfortable with me saying my opinion. And that's fine but that's all the personal information I am really going to put out their for now. I'm definitely not trying to be rude about this, but obviously what I'm saying is upsetting people so I'll just put my foot in my mouth before I say something worse! I apologize for making anyone feel bad!


----------



## AmberPick

Spastic_Dove said:


> Again. Please try and reword your statements then because the way you are portraying yourself comes off as very ignorant.
> 
> By saying 'You are weak' it comes off as you are weak as a person and what you are going through is not difficult.
> The fact of the matter is that I am a extremely strong person. But at that moment, I no longer had the will to be strong any longer. That does not make me a weak person. It is important in such a subject to make the distinction.


I guess the best way to describe it (how it looks in my head) is that any person, even the strongest person, is capable of being weak. I have seen the strongest people (my husband & dad) completely helpless. And I have seen the most helpless people be strong. Just because you are weak at one point does not mean you will always be weak and is not a judge of character - the people who survive it are that much stronger.


----------



## Spastic_Dove

That much I can agree with we have a moment of weakness.
The way you just described it does not sounds judgemental at all. Much better than the first post


----------



## AmberPick

I'm sorry, I'm horrible at putting my opinions on paper without making it sound that way! I really wasn't intending for it to come out that way!!!!!!!

Can I not delete my post if someone replies to it?


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## Spastic_Dove

It has to be within the first 10 minutes of posting and you can edit it to say something else. Not sure how long its been. Theres a button at the lower right hand side of your post and it will say "edit" if its still available.


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## AmberPick

Yeah it expired. Thanks though and sorry for the misunderstanding - I'm not mean at all, I promise!


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## Spastic_Dove

Sorry I jumped down your throat. Don't mean to scare you away from posting. Thanks for explaining what you meant.


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## AmberPick

No there was no jumping!! I just wrote it a lot differently than how I was thinking it!


----------



## Speed Racer

Solon said:


> If there really were more of those people then I don't think there would be so many problems. But most 'non-believers' seem to get the interaction with the ones that are not like you and Speed, and yeah, it does shed a very bad light on the group as a whole.


Exactly. You are judged by the company you keep. If you choose to be a part of a congregation that belittles, berates, and tries to guilt someone into becoming a Christian, then are you not just as guilty? I've left many churches because of that.

I've studied Christianity as well as other nonChristian religions. I worked with a Muslim man who had all the 'Christian values', except that he wasn't Christian. He was devout in his faith, loved and provided for his family, was devoted to his wife, didn't believe in violence for any reason, was respectful of other religions, and was one of the most gentle men I have ever met. We used to spend our lunch hours talking over the differences and similarities between our two holy books.

In the Koran, Christ is seen as a prophet, just like Mohammad. He isn't heralded as the Son of God, but He is awarded the same status as any devout prophet who has made a difference in the world.

The Old and New Testaments of the Bible really do have inconsistencies. But if you're a Christian, did not Christ say that all that came before is swept away? Which means as Christians, we can look to the Old Testament for _information_, but we're supposed to live as Christ preached in the New Testament.


----------



## wannahorse22

Solon-

I would like to apologize for blowing up at you yesterday. I thought it over, and you are right, a lot of christians to belittle other religions. I guess I became upset because I came from a church like that, and I always tried not too belittle other people- but I didnt mean to be rude. I hope you can forgive me 

-wannahorse22


----------



## Solon

Wanna - I have no problem with that at all. No forgiveness needed. I came from the same type of Church. And I'm still a little sickened about how I treated non-believers and how so many of my Christian friends encouraged it and thought it was the right thing to do. Convert people or disregard them.

I see that way more even now than I see people like Speed and Tennessee.


----------



## Solon

AmberPick said:


> -- and the talking about God not 'saving people' who are going to committ suicide..
> 
> I view it this way (and you don't have to agree) while we are on Earth we view things with tunnel vision. When you get to heaven, it's like you just put on glasses and have 20/20 for the first time. You realize that earthly goods don't matter, and you realize that the 100 years you spend on Earth (happy or unhappy) is nothing in comparison to the eternity you spend in Heaven.


Have you been to Heaven? If not, are you basing this off of what you think Heaven is, or what someone told it is. 




AmberPick said:


> There is no judgement in my post - you're all assuming that I know nothing of it. To me the people who were weak were those who weren't helping you. And just because someone is weak at one point does not mean they can't become strong again. The people I have the utmost respect for are people who have been through hell and back and have the scars to prove it.
> 
> So if you think I'm sitting here judging people who committ suicide or even consider suicide you are wrong. I am saying they are _weak_ because _I_ was weak. I can't even imagine feeling that way because I'm so _blessed_ with the little things around me.


You can't compare us to you. You can't say we are weak because you were. It's different for each person that finds themselves wanting to end their life. For most people I've talked with, it's hopelessness not weakness. You're also assuming there were people around not helping and those doing so were weak. Maybe in your case.


----------



## katieandduke

O MY GOSH..... 300+ posts?!?! i got out of town for five days and this happens?!?! lol..


anyone want to catch me up or am I gonna have to read 200+ posts.. lol.. this shall be a longgggg night haha


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## katieandduke

Speed Racer said:


> I believe that those who are terminally ill and in unremitting pain should be allowed to die on their own terms, and at a time of their own choosing.
> 
> *Do I think those people are going to Hell? No, I do not. We'll ease a suffering animal with no chance of survival out of this life, so why would it be a sin to do the same for a human being?*
> 
> What I don't agree with is someone who is depressed taking their own life, when they have no other limitations due to pain or ailments.
> 
> I know all about depression. It runs rampant in my family. I have an aunt who's tried to take her own life several times. After intensive therapy and medication, she now understands that killing herself isn't an option.
> 
> I myself have been through hell and back with depression, and I just can't see using it as an excuse to kill yourself. I understand the_ attraction_, but I can't condone it. Is it a sin? I honestly don't know, because when someone is in the deepest depths of a black depression they're not thinking rationally, which in and of itself is an illness.
> 
> If _I_ won't condemn someone for killing themselves when they're not in their right mind, what more compassion do you think God has for them? After all, He loves them more than I ever could.


 
I'm reading all 200 posts I have missed out on because of not having internet for a few days.. But those words are the best way I have ever heard that kind of situation of suicide explained. so it is one post that really caught my mind and got me thinking more than my wheels were already turning lol..


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