# Color Predictions Please?



## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

Before breeding, you need to test both sire and dam for Lethal White Overo Syndrome. Crossing 2 frame overos together results in a 25% chance of a dead foal. Do your research before breeding.

And has the stallion been tested to carry the champange gene? Id imagine thats the only way to know for sure considering the cremello is a double dilute.
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## AnalisaParalyzer (Apr 25, 2012)

annie does not carry lethal, shes got chestnut tb on one side, shes **** for overo. I have had lots of time to think about this and definitely looked into LW before i chose a stud. I am so not into putting my mare, or her baby through something like that. He was tested, but our conversation only got as far as he's for sure champagne, so yes to the double dilute, which would be interesting considering annies roan.


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## cmarie (Dec 19, 2011)

Here is a color calculator to get an idea of what you could get.
Color Calculator


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## Bridgertrot (Dec 2, 2011)

AnalisaParalyzer said:


> annie does not carry lethal, shes got chestnut tb on one side, shes **** for overo. I have had lots of time to think about this and definitely looked into LW before i chose a stud. I am so not into putting my mare, or her baby through something like that. He was tested, but our conversation only got as far as he's for sure champagne, so yes to the double dilute, which would be interesting considering annies roan.


If your mare was homozygous for overo she'd be lethal white and long past dead by now.
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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

There is no such thing as a living homozygous overo. Those are lethal whites. They die within 24 hours.

If the sire is really cremello, the only possible outcome from a chestnut would be palomino. The champange thrown in there, idk.

Id like to see pictures of the potential parents.

Frame overo can HIDE on a solid colored horse as well. So even quarter horses carry it. Best to test.
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## AnalisaParalyzer (Apr 25, 2012)

My mistake, genetics confuses me, that's why I asked, lol. There's a couple photos of anne in my albums (if it worked), but idk if they're good pics for this :/ do cremellos carry lethal by default? I'm really just trying to learn a little here, so if you could be patient with me, pretty please.
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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

Cremellos do not carry lethal white be default. Cremellos have 2 copies of the *cream* gene. Lethal whites have 2 copies of the *frame overo* gene. Completely different genetics at play.

BUT, cremellos can carry one copy of the frame gene, and they can hide it, just like any other horse. If you mare carries a copy as well, and the resulting foal inherits those 2 copies, baby wont make it.
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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

Has the stud been color tested? Double cream + champagne tends to look the same no matter what the underlying color is, so even though they call him cremello and he looks it, he could be perlino (bay + 2 cream) or smoky cream (black + 2 cream) with champagne and look the same.

Assuming he is cremello (chestnut + 2 cream) and champagne, it narrows down the possible base colors significantly. The foal will definitely be red based, and will definitely get 1 cream gene. He also has a 50% chance of getting the champagne gene, unless the stud is homozygous champagne, in which case the foal would definitely get champagne as well.

Red + cream = palomino
Red + cream + champagne = Ivory champagne (a pseudo-double dilute that can be difficult to distinguish from a cremello)

On top of that base color, the foal could also inherit any combination of roan and/or pinto patterns carried by either sire or dam.


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

As far as LWO, have the stud owner SHOW you a copy of the test results showing a negative for LWO. Too many people say a horse doesn't carry it because they don't "look" like they carry it, but it can very easily hide. 

If the stud is negative for LWO, you don't need to get your mare tested right now, but you would probably want to know for future breedings unless you always breed only to studs who have been verified not to carry it by genetic testing.


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## AnalisaParalyzer (Apr 25, 2012)

she must carry a copy, because she is an overo paint, even if she is half tb, right? so, i need to talk to the studs owner again, cause like i said we didn't get far with his color test conversation. all this makes my head spin.


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## Bridgertrot (Dec 2, 2011)

I'd say that if you are still learning, as you say, to not make statements like you did in my previous quote. If you looked into lethal white like you said, you would know your mare is not homozygous for frame. I'm not trying to be rude or mean but it's a touchy subject and would hate to see another foal turn out lethal. 

Your mare would be heterozygous for frame I would assume since you say overo. I haven't seen any pictures yet so can't say for certain.
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## Bridgertrot (Dec 2, 2011)

Found the pictures. I'd say she's probably frame. She's got some other white patterns happening as well. If the stud tested positive then get her tested as well just to be sure. I'm fairly certain she is though.
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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

IMPO I wouldn't even waste testing her. She is a frame carrier. Make sure for a FACT that the stud is negative for frame.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

And some lines of TB do carry and express the frame pattern. 



> This lovely gal is Quit Starring, the 2002 daughter of Racey Remarque and She's Got a Look, by Big Leaguer.
> 
> Pinto Thoroughbreds


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Ahhhhhhh Double post! Ignore this!


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

To clear things up a little bit for you-

"Overo" is a very broad term that covers a number of pinto patterns: splash, sabino, frame, dominant white... basically everything but tobiano. Frame is the one that most people are concerned about from a breeding perspective because it is lethal when it is inherited from both parents. So, if both parents carry one copy of frame (heterozygous), the foal has a 25% chance of inheriting a copy from both of them (homozygous) and he will be born lethal white. The reason for this is that the intestines are not fully formed when two copies of frame are present, and the foal dies within 72 hours. 

From your album, I think it is very likely that your horse carries a copy of the frame overo gene (and I think sabino, too... but that one's not lethal, just fun to know )









So, it's VERY important that you make sure you don't breed to a stallion who also carries the frame gene. And don't take the owner's word for it- ask to see the official report.


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## AnalisaParalyzer (Apr 25, 2012)

Thank you guys , i'll definitely ask to see his test papers, if she even really has them, :/. I met her and the horse at a local horsie get together, and just got her number and whatnot since i don't plan on breeding til march or even next year. 

I had heard she was sabino, i know shes overo. If i put up more pictures could somebody tell me what else may be in there? just for fun? 

either way, i can promise you all i dont want to risk a LW baby any more than any of you do. I love my mare, and plan on keeping her baby til the end of its life. (and i'm only breeding her once). Shes kind of my fiances snuggle bug, but hes extremely nervous of young/energetic/rambunctious horses (old incident left him jumpy), so when she mellows up a bit she'll be his, and hopefully, by then baby will be ready to start and train. I'm good with the practical stuff, the genes and theories throw me off. :/ but i'm trying.


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## AnalisaParalyzer (Apr 25, 2012)

Anybody wanna take a go? Shes a little thin here, this is right after i left her in the care of a very bad lady for a couple of months. shes gained quite a bit since then, as you can see in some of her other album pics.


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

Definitely frame. Sabino. And probably a splash gene too.

Do NOT breed her to another frame overo carrier. Ever.
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## AnalisaParalyzer (Apr 25, 2012)

No LW babies for me thanks  i will not breed her to another overo. Ever. i will check test papers first. Pinky Promise  shes got crazy white splotches that go all the way up the insides of her back legs, is that splash? sorry you cant seen them in these pics, i really need new ones.


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

I'm thinking just frame and sabino, but am waiting to hear our resident expert Chiila's opinion


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

I see sabino, frame and splash. She has the arrowhead on the hind stocking that says sabino to me, plus some lip white. The face white is "slipping" off to one side, which I would consider a splash trait, as well as how neat that front stocking is. The body white is definitely screaming frame - it is moving horizontally on both the barrel and neck.


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## CCH (Jan 23, 2011)

CLaPorte432 said:


> There is no such thing as a living homozygous overo. Those are lethal whites. They die within 24 hours.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is not directed at ClaPorte, but I would just like to clarify her statement as not technically correct. I know you meant to say "no such thing as homozygous FRAME overo." There is indeed homozygous splash 1 overo which is perfectly safe to breed for. 

I have a lovely, opinionated, very much alive boy waiting on me to get my butt to the barn to take care of all of his scratching needs right now to prove it is true. We all talk about how important it is to be as genetically correct as the current information allows when speaking about white color patterns, so I had to step in. I don't want impressionable people to avoid every type of overo just because of the frame overos.
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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

Thanks CCH! Definitely meant to say FRAME overo's are homozygous lethal.

OP, keep in mind, there are 3 overo patterns, frame, splash, and sabino. So just make sure the stallion is frame free and your okay to breed to the other 2 overo patterns.
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## Surayya (Dec 7, 2011)

AnalisaParalyzer just test your mare- it's not expensive or hard to do, then you will know exactly what she is & isn't  

People told me my filly looked frame, splash & sabino as well as Tobiano- but she tested neg for EVERYTHING except being a Homozygous Tobiano!

I don't doubt my filly may have other as yet undiscovered pattern/genes at work- but for right now, everyone on here was totally wrong on what she officially is considered to be GENETICALLY, so looks can be very deceiving lol


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