# The Jibbah; when is enough too much?



## tinyliny

I am not a breeder of arab horses. I don't know much about them at all. So, this question is out of genuine curiosity, and naivete.

At what point does breeding for the dish face that is typical of the arab, (the Jibbah) become so extreme that it is causing problems for the animal itself? like physcial problems, I mean.

For example, people have bred bulldogs to such an extreme of squat stature that the female can often only give birth via Ceasarean section. The breed becomes a manipulated being that can only survive and procreate at the whim and will of humans.

ETA: I understand that the term "Jibbah" refers actually to the domed forehead, but that is really what creates the dished appearance of the arab's head.

Are there problems with an extreme jibbah that are caused by breeding exclusively for this characteristic? And, are breeders warping the real 'arab' horse into some kind of fantastic creature that is no longer a proud representative of it's ancient ancestors?


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## Yogiwick

You are right that the jibbah is the forehead and accentuates the dish. But is does not CAUSE the dish. The dish is there by itself. And it's the dish that causes issues. So nothing to do with jibbah.

And the point it causes problems would be....the point that it causes problems lol.

No good breeder will breed FOR the dish. Halter horses want a typey head of course but the extreme look is avoided by any good breeder. And unfortunately halter horses in general are something to stay away from if looking for a "using" horse.

Yes to both your questions. This would definitely cause problems:









As you can see in my avatar my gelding is very typey while still having a very normal head shape (he is Polish/Crabbet). I know plenty of Arabs with practically no dish. As far as actual jibbah I know one mare where it is very pronounced but you tend to not notice it otherwise. When you look at the horse like "what is wrong with it?" it's probably to the point of causing problems! And that is absolutely something discouraged by any ethical breeder.

Just think "does this look normal". That is, or should be, the unspoken basis for breeding!!


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## farmpony84

I can't read this post without picturing that ridiculously ugly "thing" in the "new" first Star Wars movie... His name was something weird... jar-jar or something like that?

I had an arab some thirty years ago, she wasn't mine but I told everyone she was. She actually belong to a women in a mother state but I rode and cared for her. She wasn't the "Egyptian" arab but I don't know what exactly her lineage was. Just remember she was rose gray and her name was Bashara. She was a ton of fun as well.

She had a really pretty dish face, broad forehead and turned in ears but she didn't look like the photos that have been posted on this forum lately. Not sure who many different "types" of arabs there are... I know in the QH world the breed can have some different looks and features...

I also worked for a women years ago that was a big name in the arab industry and she had a big name stud... I can't remember his name, he was a dark bay but hers also did not have that really crazy sea horse look. They were also a little more stockier. They showed and placed in Nationals. I remember she went to Canada and rode them. She met Patrick Swayze while she was there as well. If I remember right - his also didn't have those crazy strong features.

How many types of arabs are there?


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## Yogiwick

To add- the mare I know with the very pronouced jibbah did NOT have a very noticeable dish, she was Polish/Crabbet too.

Also note that the dish I pictured IS dished and not anything to do with the forehead.


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## tinyliny

what sort of problem occur if the face is too dished? and , if the Jibbah is very large, does it create trouble? or is it unrelated to issues with a hyper dish?


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## Golden Horse

Yogiwick said:


> Just think "does this look normal". That is, or should be, the unspoken basis for breeding!!


Amen, that's something I can get behind, this does not look 'right'










we go to far, in all things, be it breeding, or asking/breeding for totally unnatural gaits, taking things of beauty and creating caricatures of what is good.

My arabs, looked like horses!


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## Golden Horse

Yogiwick said:


> Just think "does this look normal". That is, or should be, the unspoken basis for breeding!!


Amen, that's something I can get behind, this does not look 'right'


View attachment 915305


we go to far, in all things, be it breeding, or asking/breeding for totally unnatural gaits, taking things of beauty and creating caricatures of what is good.

My arabs, looked like horses!

Apart from the one that doesn't


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## horselovinguy

...........^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^...............

I hope those are very badly photo-shopped...

That poor horse...

**oops...you posted again to fast Golden.... The poor horse was post #6... **


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## Golden Horse

OK, not sure what happened there, but trying to fix it is making it worse


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## Yogiwick

tinyliny said:


> what sort of problem occur if the face is too dished? and , if the Jibbah is very large, does it create trouble? or is it unrelated to issues with a hyper dish?


No expert but the extreme dish is common an extreme Jibbah is not. I wouldn't think it would cause health issues, more room is better than not enough. But the foal I posted a picture of definitely is extreme but does not have too much of a jibbah so while they are relative they are not directly related.

I believe the problems are breathing and then when you get that extreme the bone structure is off it's basically a deformity, I think there can be mouth issues too.


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## Dehda01

The jibbah is the convex "shield" over the eyes. It can make a dish look more swoops, but is unrelated. 

Honestly, most breeders (especially halter breeders) don't want an extreme jibbah. Most people I have talked to find a large one unattractive. I found them fairly common with poorer breeding in the mid nineties. I see less of them now. There where some interesting connections with hydrocephalus or lower intelligence with a few babies I knew with it. 

Please remember, many of the extreme pictures people post are young and immature animals who have not fully matured in the face. While they will not have plain profiles, most will broaden and dry out in the face and thicken in the neck and body. My babies tend to be fairly plain (heavy polish/crabbet/Russian) when they are done, but can be slightly dishy as babies.


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## tinyliny

I'm not sure just saying , "if it looks normal, it is" will work. I mean, to some, the way quarter horses are bred does not any longer look normal, but others find it aesthetically attractive. Normal has a way of creeping.

But, if the horse has a very small muzzle and hyper dished face, what sort of health issues might it incur?


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## ChieTheRider

farmpony84 said:


> I can't read this post without picturing that ridiculously ugly "thing" in the "new" first Star Wars movie... His name was something weird... jar-jar or something like that?


Jar Jar Binks was the really stupid thing and yeah. When I saw the title I thought "Jabba" from A New Hope (Star Wars 4). Ew. 

But on topic, heck! There's definately limit to how far you can inbreed something before problems happen. That horse in the second post looks crazy.

*so didn't mostly post this for the sake of answering the Star Wars question*


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## Dehda01

I have worked, trained and ridden some exotic arabs. Hard. And they kept up with the rest of my plain faced arabs. Maybe you could have breathing issues with a narrow enough nasal passage, but I never found that to be the case. They were able to race and aerate just fine. 

Breeders don't want a tiny muzzle, they want an expressive face. Big eyes, a dish, lovely moveable nostrils and that often means a bit of a kissable nose. It can be a bit of a caricature sometimes, but I find most goals out grow and thicken.


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## SteadyOn

I seem to recall reading that Arabs with extreme facial dishes tend to also have bad parrot mouths.


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## phantomhorse13

tinyliny said:


> At what point does breeding for the dish face that is typical of the arab, (the Jibbah) become so extreme that it is causing problems for the animal itself? like physcial problems, I mean.


I know mouth issues can go along with an extreme dish (generally parrot mouth), which certainly can be a problem depending on the severity. For me, the extreme dish isn't the most likely thing to cause the horse issue.. not when that dish is often seen on halter-type arabs who have all sorts of other confo issues that would concern me first. Things like tubular bodies or flat croups or long, weak pasterns (often with light bone in general) or club feet. People who breed for the sea horse-looking "living works of art" often create horses who are useless for any type of real work.

As always, some people seem to think if a bit of something is good, extreme is better.

I would no more want this in my pasture:










than I would this:











Our arabs range from somewhat typey to people don't believe she's an arab.. but all are good using horses.


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## tinyliny

why is a tubular body a conformational weakness?


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## phantomhorse13

tinyliny said:


> why is a tubular body a conformational weakness?


It limits the size of their chest, which therefore limits lung capacity. It also tends to go with a long back, which can be weaker in terms of weight carrying ability long term.

That body type can also be very difficult to find a saddle that fits, as the girth groove tends to be very forward.


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## tinyliny

when I first started riding as an adult, I leased a mare who was a daughter of Gdansk ( at least her owner said she was) . She was one of his last foals, and she was 19 when I started riding her in 2001. this is a photo of Gdansk's face:


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## loosie

Jeez, that QH you posted Phantom... talk about caricatures! What a... wrong looking thing!


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## loosie

So I googled 'arab horse images' & found one that's almost guaranteed to have mouth issues...


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

I've not found that an extreme dish really causes any problems with the Arabs. The Jibbah is a sign of intelligence, according to Bedouin lore, but over sized is not prized. That foal will grow up and have a LOT less dish than the pic shows, for one thing in real life he won't be air brushed and photo shopped to the extreme that the picture is. Just remember when looking at MOST of those pics of super exotic looking horses that they have been shopped to death. There are certain photographers (and that photog is one) that are known for their "shop work". When they are older and more filled out the adults lose a lot of that exotic youngster look. 

Cloney as a baby, about 9 months old and another at about 5 ish years old.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

loosie said:


> So I googled 'arab horse images' & found one that's almost guaranteed to have mouth issues...


That is not an Arab. Look at the proportions. I suspect it's a mini. Also, looks stuffed or doll-ish.


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## KigerQueen

My arab dose not have much of a dish thankfully but her jibbah is large enough to give the effect of a dish.


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## Tazzie

farmpony84 said:


> I can't read this post without picturing that ridiculously ugly "thing" in the "new" first Star Wars movie... His name was something weird... jar-jar or something like that?
> 
> I had an arab some thirty years ago, she wasn't mine but I told everyone she was. She actually belong to a women in a mother state but I rode and cared for her. She wasn't the "Egyptian" arab but I don't know what exactly her lineage was. Just remember she was rose gray and her name was Bashara. She was a ton of fun as well.
> 
> She had a really pretty dish face, broad forehead and turned in ears but she didn't look like the photos that have been posted on this forum lately. Not sure who many different "types" of arabs there are... I know in the QH world the breed can have some different looks and features...
> 
> I also worked for a women years ago that was a big name in the arab industry and she had a big name stud... I can't remember his name, he was a dark bay but hers also did not have that really crazy sea horse look. They were also a little more stockier. They showed and placed in Nationals. I remember she went to Canada and rode them. She met Patrick Swayze while she was there as well. If I remember right - his also didn't have those crazy strong features.
> 
> How many types of arabs are there?


If I had to guess, you're probably talking about Sheila Varian (RIP) and possibly Huckleberry Bey (but that is just a guess; she was well known for well bred, sturdy, using horses, and the majority have been bay :lol

I don't like the "seahorse" look, but I do know majority of the foals will grow up and have much, much prettier heads (in my opinion) than they sported as a baby. I like a nice dished face, but nothing extreme. Heck, Izzie's breeder boasted of her "typey head" and "teacup muzzle" before I bought her. Couldn't be further from the truth :lol: I've attached pictures of Izzie's head as a baby, and then just this past June at Regionals. Also posted her beau, a purebred Arab with a very pleasant Arab head.

It's kind of one of those things where if a halter horse isn't your cup of tea, I'd steer clear of it and look for the using horses. The working western, the sport horse, etc.


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## ChieTheRider

tinyliny said:


> when I first started riding as an adult, I leased a mare who was a daughter of Gdansk ( at least her owner said she was) . She was one of his last foals, and she was 19 when I started riding her in 2001. this is a photo of Gdansk's face:


Now that's a pretty head. It's arab but it's not crazy.


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## tinyliny

Is Izzie full arab, or a cross? her coloration is very unusual.


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## Dustbunny

phantomhorse13 said:


> I would no more want this in my pasture:
> 
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> 
> In defense of this Arab... It would look a lot different standing relaxed in the pasture swatting flies. Arab halter classes made me happy to see the Sport Horse Movement in the breed. Imagine judging a horse on what it really looks like and it's suitability.
> I've had Arabs and crosses for many years. I've seen some very attractive ones on the endurance trail. I appreciate looking at an Arab or cross and seeing characteristics of the breed. But the extreme is just odd (in any breed) and unfortunate.


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## Tazzie

tinyliny said:


> Is Izzie full arab, or a cross? her coloration is very unusual.


She's half :wink: her dam is APHA. But you can see how whatever dish she had as a baby is nearly nonexistent as an adult. And her muzzle certainly wouldn't fit in a teacup :wink:


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## tinyliny

but I bet it fits into a grain bucket!


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## Dehda01

Dustbunny said:


> phantomhorse13 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would no more want this in my pasture:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In defense of this Arab... It would look a lot different standing relaxed in the pasture swatting flies. Arab halter classes made me happy to see the Sport Horse Movement in the breed. Imagine judging a horse on what it really looks like and it's suitability.
> I've had Arabs and crosses for many years. I've seen some very attractive ones on the endurance trail. I appreciate looking at an Arab or cross and seeing characteristics of the breed. But the extreme is just odd (in any breed) and unfortunate.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly. Stand this horse up squarely in SHIH and you would see a very different horse. I think the croup would look much more natural to the average person, the neck comes out nicely and has a nice set of legs - though the slightly set back angle of this picture does not let me properly evaluate them.
> 
> The stretch/split of the legs really flattens the croup, by that is not what the horse will look like standing squarely.
> 
> I would be curious as to the age of this horse. Horses will fill out significantly through 8-10yrs old. A weedy 4-6year old often has a good heartgirth at 9. The aged mare and stallions SHOULD BE SOLID horses. I have had the privilege of working and meeting with some of the top halter mares and stallions. Now I don't like many of the American bred horses that can trend, but some of the Polish imports that I met where incredible specimens with CORRECT LEGS, BIG BODIES and temperaments that I enjoyed working with- and they had pretty faces... one farm I worked with had their babies do well and then went on to be reining and some went to the track and endurance. Pretty and useable. The way they should be.
Click to expand...


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## loosie

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> That is not an Arab. Look at the proportions. I suspect it's a mini. Also, looks stuffed or doll-ish.


Are you serious? I suspect not, but if so, look harder, or maybe borrow someone's reading glasses! :rofl::rofl:


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## tinyliny

I think that might be a needle felted horse. I do needle felting, and to do such a nice horse would be really hard.


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## ThatRoanHorse

Going to jump in ere: the first thing I saw when I looked at the horse was the doll or stuffed look. It is definitely not real.


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## knightrider

I once had the opportunity to breed my Appie mare to a seahorse type Arabian for free. I was looking to breed her, but I wanted a hunky Morgan for her. The seahorse Arab was hotter than a firecracker, and my mare was hot too. I didn't want that kind of cross and I didn't like his looks. I rode the Arab stallion for a couple of years at the Maryland Renaissance Festival. He was a nice natured stallion, but I didn't care for that seahorse look. On the other hand, he lived to be 36 and never had any health problems.


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## Golden Horse

loosie said:


> Are you serious? I suspect not, but if so, look harder, or maybe borrow someone's reading glasses! :rofl::rofl:


:rofl:

I could see that and I had eye surgery at the weekend! I'm sure that they weren't being serious.......I hope


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## Yogiwick

That pic of Gdansk is the spitting image of my boy. Maybe a relative? Desi has a nicer nose and more white, but that's about it! lol Gorgeous pic, thanks for sharing I hadn't seen that one!

(And yes he's Polish/Crabbet as I said but no I don't know the exact breeding as he's unregistered...my trainer knows lol)


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

loosie said:


> are you serious? I suspect not, but if so, look harder, or maybe borrow someone's reading glasses! :rofl::rofl:


tic........


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## Yogiwick

Dehda01 said:


> The jibbah is the convex "shield" over the eyes. It can make a dish look more swoops, but is unrelated.
> 
> Honestly, most breeders (especially halter breeders) don't want an extreme jibbah. Most people I have talked to find a large one unattractive. I found them fairly common with poorer breeding in the mid nineties. I see less of them now. There where some interesting connections with hydrocephalus or lower intelligence with a few babies I knew with it.
> 
> Please remember, many of the extreme pictures people post are young and immature animals who have not fully matured in the face. While they will not have plain profiles, most will broaden and dry out in the face and thicken in the neck and body. My babies tend to be fairly plain (heavy polish/crabbet/Russian) when they are done, but can be slightly dishy as babies.


Interesting info. The mare I referred to was not "extreme" persay but definitely more noticeable (not something I'd consider a deformity or issue as this thread was about). She was VERY smart and out of the breeder's main bloodlines so I knew many other relations, all with more regular profiles (This is an ALF horse)

And also in response to you, my Arab with his dainty Arab face has a very large (and kissable nose) with large nostrils. They make the face look more delicate too. I really like it. You WANT big blowy nostrils.


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## phantomhorse13

Dustbunny said:


> In defense of this Arab... It would look a lot different standing relaxed in the pasture swatting flies. Arab halter classes made me happy to see the Sport Horse Movement in the breed. Imagine judging a horse on what it really looks like and it's suitability.


It would look different, yes.. but no matter how it stands, the body shape and the extremely forward girth groove isn't going to change. I would also be curious to see if the right hind foot is actually clubby or if the horse is just standing on the toe in the grass.

I would love to see the trends shift back towards true sport horses, as arabs were meant to be athletes, not just artwork.


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## Allison Finch

:clap:


Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> That is not an Arab. Look at the proportions. I suspect it's a mini. Also, looks stuffed or doll-ish.



I think it was a joke!! LOLOL!


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## Allison Finch

Sigh.......


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## Smilie

Yes, it can cause problems, both the extreme dish and the 'tea cup muzzle.
We kinda went into this problem, during our horse Improvement meetings, not just with Arabians, but any breed, where some characteristic was taken to extreme, in halter horses of those breeds, with Halter being an entity onto itself. In other words, that structure was never tested 'form to function, staying sound under work
What we first have to realize, whether we agree with it or not, halter has become an entity onto itself, with many of those fads taken to extreme, and then at upper end, those horses never being ridden, thus tested as a using animal.
The extreme level topline of halter Arabians, is another example, where function is lost in favor of some fad taken to extreme
We see that trend in German Shepards,for example with hip dsyplasia as a result, plus loss or working ability. THe RCMP, here, where police dogs are trained, had to import dogs from Germany, until they could re establish German Shepherds bred to work, and not just compete in some dog show

We have AQHA halter horses with so much bunchy muscles that they can' never perform athletically, and massive bodies on small hooves
Drafts bred to be very cow hocked, and the list goes on
That is why the Alberta Horse Improvement Evaluation show was not a halter class, but rather an evaluation of conformation, as it relates, 'form to function.
You will never seen Arabian reiner with that extreme level topline, tea cup muzzle, as they can neither engage the rear end, and take in enough air
A stock horse that excels in upper end in reining, working cowhorse, western pl, though very attractive, will never be seen in a halter class
You will also never see a marathon runner, in a Mr Universe contest either!


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## HombresArablegacy

http://www.horseforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=916025&stc=1&d=1502943425


http://www.horseforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=916041&stc=1&d=1502943669

I've attached 3 pictures of 1st, 3rd and 4th generation of my Arabians. 1st is my 11 yr old mare, great granddaughter of Hombre. She's 1/2 straight Egyptian, has lovely wide set eyes and gorgeous head.

2nd is her Dam (the bay) Sire is an Alladinn son, her Dam was 1/2 Russian, Crabbet and Bay Abi lines through Hombre. She's also my avatar.

3rd is AB Hombre, grand and great grand site of both mares. Hombre did not have the table top croup, was typey but athletic build. None of my girls have the level croup, or extreme type, but can be recognized easily as Arabians. Well set necks, good dense bone, and fluid movement. Although I bred to show in halter because I'm a crappy rider, lol, I also bred for substance and athleticism.

http://www.horseforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=916049&stc=1&d=1502943813


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## tinyliny

@HombresArablegacy nice photos, but I'm not sure the point you are making.


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## HombresArablegacy

P.S. I don't know why it's so darn hard to upload pics on this forum....first pic is sideways but should not be, darn it!! This is the ONLY place where uploading pics is difficult and downright discouraging. 

If someone has the capacity to repost my pictures directly to this thread without the link, I'd be most appreciative!


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## anndankev

tinyliny said:


> @*HombresArablegacy* nice photos, ...


Wonder why I couldn't see them? Just get a invalid link message.


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## HombresArablegacy

tinyliny said:


> @HombresArablegacy nice photos, but I'm not sure the point you are making.


My apologies tiny, I was trying to point out the differences in the Arabian head through several generations and also body type. My grey has a much more exotic look due to her Egyptian lines. Her dam has (to me) a lovely head via a different strain. Both had quite discernible jibbas as foals, but grew out of them.
I have no use for the halter horses of today, all the substance has been bred out of them for the sake of producing 'living works of art' and money.
I may not be articulating myself well right now as just uploading the pics was so time consuming and tiring.


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## loosie

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> tic........


:tongue:Thought it must be, esp from you, but then you never quite know... when there are people in the world asking to reschedule the solar eclipse & blaming 'daylight savings' for droughts & global warming & the likes! inkunicorn:


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## loosie

HombresArablegacy said:


> P.S. I don't know why it's so darn hard to upload pics on this forum....first pic is sideways but should not be, darn it!! This is the ONLY place where uploading pics is difficult and downright discouraging.
> 
> If someone has the capacity to repost my pictures directly to this thread without the link, I'd be most appreciative!


Went to do that for you, but I couldn't see the pics at all. Came up with 'invalid link' too. Seems the odd few people have probs with pics rotating, but most fine, so maybe it's something about your settings for HF or such, rather than HF itself. 

I expect you know how to do this already, but... To attach pics from your computer, go to 'advanced' & under the text box scroll down to 'manage attachments' & click on that & then press 'upload' when you've selected the pics.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

loosie said:


> :tongue:Thought it must be, esp from you, but then you never quite know... when there are people in the world asking to reschedule the solar eclipse & blaming 'daylight savings' for droughts & global warming & the likes! inkunicorn:


ROFL.....Really? Could we reschedule the eclipse, it's right in the middle of my afternoon lesson and it might make Pookey spooky! Farmer next me unplowed a whole 40 acres due to daylight savings time......just didn't know how to fill his day with all that extra time.


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## loosie

^Or what about the woman that complained about a 'deer crossing' sign on a local highway - she thought it was incredibly stupid of the council to put it on a busy road, and they should have made the crossing on a quiet side street! There's no accounting for some... 

Oh & I saw last night on FB or somewhere an American show where they decided to ask people on the street to point out North Korea on a map of the world - virtually every place in the world was pointed at, but one person even pointed to USA!!


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

loosie said:


> ^Or what about the woman that complained about a 'deer crossing' sign on a local highway - she thought it was incredibly stupid of the council to put it on a busy road, and they should have made the crossing on a quiet side street! There's no accounting for some...
> 
> Oh & I saw last night on FB or somewhere an American show where they decided to ask people on the street to point out North Korea on a map of the world - virtually every place in the world was pointed at, but one person even pointed to USA!!


You can't fix stupid. Only euthanize it.


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## Fimargue

My 81,25% Egyptian (the rest is Russian, Polish, Crabbet) mare with her pure Polish, by Wojslaw, bestie.



She luckily got some of that profile from her sire's straight Egyptian side because I don't like her dam's head. 



Which comes from her sire Ekla de Gargassan. Too dishy for me.



My new 50% Russian (the rest is Polish, Crabbet) mare has a more dished profile and that's about the limit for me.



I personally do not like too dainty Arabs, nor too dishy or straight profiles.


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## Dehda01

Allison Finch said:


> Sigh.......


The first mare pictured is a famous horse people always pull out WITH WITH A DEFORMITY!! She has wry face!!! Her nose is twisted 3" off center. Her parents are quite plain faced. She is Namusca. Her sire is Naradni. He has a lovely, masculine but straightish profile. Her dam was a plainish Muscat daughter. I worked with her daughter who is a BIG PLAIN faced straight Russian mare. I think the website is now down so I can't link to their pictures. Her grandget do endurance and are not fancy in any way. 

The second foal is in the process of blowing. 

The third is a CLIPPED brand new baby. Add fur and they look much less delicate. That will mature differently. 

That is a hell of a sexy stallion head... and that would not cause any breathing problems. I have seen dishier horses on the 100mile in Vermont a few weekends ago.


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## Fimargue

Dehda01 said:


> The first mare pictured is a famous horse people always pull out WITH WITH A DEFORMITY!! She has wry face!!! Her nose is twisted 3" off center. Her parents are quite plain faced. She is Namusca. Her sire is Naradni. He has a lovely, masculine but straightish profile. Her dam was a plainish Muscat daughter. I worked with her daughter who is a BIG PLAIN faced straight Russian mare. I think the website is now down so I can't link to their pictures. Her grandget do endurance and are not fancy in any way.
> 
> The second foal is in the process of blowing.
> 
> The third is a CLIPPED brand new baby. Add fur and they look much less delicate. That will mature differently.
> 
> That is a hell of a sexy stallion head... and that would not cause any breathing problems. I have seen dishier horses on the 100mile in Vermont a few weekends ago.


And this is where tastes differ. Blowing or clipped, doesn't change anything. I think most people still find these heads extremely dishy. 

If all Arabs looked like this, I probably wouldn't have any. This is all people's creation.


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## Dehda01

And what you are having difficulty understanding is that that dishy baby is not going to be anywhere near as dishy as an adult. The bones set in different ways. My dishy babies have close to straight profiles as adults. 

There is nothing wrong with having a typy horse. You can have a beautiful and useable horse. I personally like a more classic polish/Russian 80-90s type wide set eyes, slight dish Arabian head vs the very typey Egyptian style head you see currently. I want a big body, big bone with correct legs. I RIDE my horses. 

But you don't ride the head. You ride the body. The head is just a bonus. I don't want a small eye and unattractive head. I want an Arabian that LOOKS like a Gladys Edwards painting. I want to be able to ride my horses to war if I need to. They need to be brave, easy to train and amateur friendly. 

But that has been my mission when breeding and raising my babies.


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## Smilie

Yes, you don't ride the head, but you MUST ride the conformation, as when generations of animal;s, be it dogs, horses, are just shown in hand, without ever putting that conformation to test under work, you loose function

Unfortunately, that is no longer happening to our horses, shown at upper end halter, with halter no longer showing future athletic ability, and the structure to stay sound under work.
THat is my beef with the halter industry, in any breed at upper end, when it becomes an entity onto itself.
You see extreme type, not in the working horses, but those that are just shown in hand. Even if that conformation is sound, the mind is never tested under saddle
This comes from someone, who in the beginning of breeding horses, thought breeding to those top well advertised halter stallions was the way to go, to produce a 'pretty athlete. I learned to breed like to like, and have proven performance top and bottom
\Pretty', is not the same as extreme type. Look at some AQHA reiners and pleasure hroses-very attractive horses, but they are never seen in a halter ring, against those halter specialists
Nothing wrong with any horse representing a breed, having \type', and in fact that was one criteria at the Horse Improvement program, besides the conformation= type as to breed'. What should not be rewarded is EXTREME type, when more is considered better!
Small head on Afghan dogs=so more became better, with cranial cavity not able to contain much of a brain
Angle to the back legs of a German Shepard, taken to extreme, so that hip displasia became common
Nice delicate muzzle, versus coarse muzzle, great, until bred to an extreme 'teacup muzzle, ditto for dished face, and son on and so on!
There is a middle ground between coarseness and extreme expression of some desired trait!

Are those extreme dished faced horses, working horses? I think not, esp with that foal being clipped, heading towards some foal futurity , no doubt


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

This is where I depart the conversation. People who like Arabs who are typey are forever having someone try to force them to justify their like. I won't. I don't ask an Appy lover why they like spots, or a Paint lover why they like lots of color or a halter QH lover why they like that big heavy build, or a Warm Blood lover why they love that type of horse. You love what you love. If someone doesn't like a certain kind of horse, don't get one. Arabs are not for everyone. For one thing they don't suffer fools and mistreatment.


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## Dehda01

No. I am not forcing anyone to like anything. I appreciate that there are many lines of arabs. Many seats and all that. It is a big breed with many strains, but I also don't appreciate being told that People are wrong if they have a slightly dishy head. It is in the STANDARD!!!

Unfortunately my favorite lines are not being bred as much as I like and I had to import semen for my mares from Europe. My horses are fairly plain. But Straight Russian or Polish/crabbet/Russian.


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## Fimargue

@Dehda - I remain sceptic about the very dishy babies having almost straight profiles as adults. As an example Dreamcatcher's Cloney - exactly the same pretty head as a weanling and adult. 

Otherwise I agree with many things with you and I as well want Arabs to look like Arabs, but Arab people have different ideas as to what Arabs should look like and what to someone is a slightly dishy and typey.


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## HombresArablegacy

loosie said:


> Went to do that for you, but I couldn't see the pics at all. Came up with 'invalid link' too. Seems the odd few people have probs with pics rotating, but most fine, so maybe it's something about your settings for HF or such, rather than HF itself.
> 
> I expect you know how to do this already, but... To attach pics from your computer, go to 'advanced' & under the text box scroll down to 'manage attachments' & click on that & then press 'upload' when you've selected the pics.


Thanks for trying Loosie. I don't know why some are unable to see the pictures, they were uploaded via horseforum and linked to HF. 

I did all the steps you mentioned above, but from my phone, which is basically a mini laptop. I rarely use my laptop anymore, all my pictures and files are on my phone. Plus I have to tether my laptop to my phone to get an internet connection. I just don't understand why the forum makes it so difficult to upload pics. I don't have this problem anywhere but here.:shrug::shrug::shrug:


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## Dehda01

I am on a phone and while some of my foal pix are on Photobucket, most are in long dead computers since my foals range from 10-25 years old. They are no longer easily shareable. My babies look like they have been hit with spoons and end up with straight profiles or very slight dishes. I wish they were dishier but pedigree dictates otherwise. Sorry, that is the way it is.


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## tinyliny

It would be interesting to see the skull of a horse with a very dishy face. I don't know why, but you could see the real bone deep differences. And to see the skull compared to a horse with a flat, and with a Roman nose would be interesting. 

I've always wondered how anthropologists can tell when some small fragment of bone is from a new species of humanoid, or is just an example of intra-species variation. I mean, within **** Sapiens there is HUGE variation in bone and skeleton shaping. Same with horses, and same with arab horses. Wonder what a far in the future anthropologist , who had perhaps never seen a real live horse, woudl say if they saw the extreme skulls of horse head, from Roman to uber-dished.


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## HombresArablegacy

I have an account with Dropbox, specifically created when I began using my phone primarily a few years back. However.......dropbox changed their user terms last year to where you can only access via laptop. Sigh.... also have pics backed up to Google drive, but it's a pita to use.


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## loosie

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> You can't fix stupid. Only euthanize it.


Euthanising being putting them out of other people's misery you mean??


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## loosie

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> This is where I depart the conversation. People who like Arabs who are typey are forever having someone try to force them to justify their like.


Beauty is in the eye of the beerholder! Each to his own IMO, IF breeding for your 'taste' doesn't impact the health/soundness of the animal - which is what Tiny's original question was relating to. There are so many probs with purebred dogs for eg, due to people's 'tastes' being unchecked by rationality about health(& temperament for that matter too - a friend bought a Neo mastiff pup & told me the choice was between (more) sound of body OR sound of mind - it is unlikely to find both in that breed over here apparently!!). THAT is the sort of 'taste' I believe needs to be 'checked'... somehow.


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## phantomhorse13

Dehda01 said:


> That is a hell of a sexy stallion head... and that would not cause any breathing problems. I have seen dishier horses on the 100mile in Vermont a few weekends ago.


I don't recall seeing anything dishier than that at Vermont a few weeks ago, though Iggy's head probably matches it. A lot less baby oil though. :wink: [Sorry to have missed meeting you in person if you were there!]



Dehda01 said:


> My babies look like they have been hit with spoons


:rofl:

Next time someone calls one of our arabs a 'dent-head,' this spoon comment will be all I can think of!


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## Smilie

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> This is where I depart the conversation. People who like Arabs who are typey are forever having someone try to force them to justify their like. I won't. I don't ask an Appy lover why they like spots, or a Paint lover why they like lots of color or a halter QH lover why they like that big heavy build, or a Warm Blood lover why they love that type of horse. You love what you love. If someone doesn't like a certain kind of horse, don't get one. Arabs are not for everyone. For one thing they don't suffer fools and mistreatment.


Nothing wrong with a typey Arab, and I don't think that is the subject of this post. 
I think the topic is EXTREME expression of some breed typey characteristic, when type is good,but when that expression of that characteristic is taken to extreme, with the idea if some is good, more is always better
Color on an App, or a Paint, does not affect form to function, unless, of course it is linked to some genetic defect,like LWO

I don't like extreme halter muscling on a stock horse either, as seen in those World champion halter horses, or those small feet on massive bodied, as that does affect form to function
Ditto with extreme dish, tea cup muzzle , when those characteristics that define a typey Arab, are taken to extreme, specifically to be expressed more then original breed characteristics ever did, regardless of lines,with 'more' becoming better
In fact, it is in breeds where halter has become a specialized event,, that extreme expression of some original desired characteristic is bred for, over generations, and when those extreme expressions are never tested 'form to function
You do not see halter type muscling on a performance stock horse. Think that muscle bound halter horse can run a reining pattern, or take a cow down the fence?
Warmbloods don't have any comparable class, far as halter, with that class an entity onto itself, thus breeding characteristics,taken to the extreme, that affect the criteria of 'form to function, proven my actual performance testing


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## Smilie

Perhaps, reading this paragraph, from the link that follows, will clear up as to the true subject of this post:

Profile: The horse’s profile (straight, convex or dished) is created simply by the relationship between the cranium and the face. Think of the cranium as a ball that extends from poll to eye socket, and think of the face as a shoebox that extends from the eye sockets to the tip of the muzzle. Changing how those two pieces sit relative to each other is what creates the horse’s profile.

Over the years people have selectively bred horses for exaggerated dished profiles, shortened faces and teacup muzzles, purposely (and ignorantly) breeding in facial faults that affect the horse’s ability to breath, chew, have properly rooted teeth with plenty of room, and easily hold a bit (or two in the case of double bridles). Over-bite, under-bite and other tooth misalignments, that would have seen the individual die in the wild without the advantage of human caretaking, processed feeds, soaked hay cubes etc…, now exist and propagate.

We also don’t want the horse’s head to look like that of a donkey or mule. In asinines the cranium (ball) is smaller. This causes the donkey’s neck vertebrae to attach to the skull from below the ears, unlike the horse whose neck vertebrae should attach to the skull from behind the ears. When the vertebrae attach from below the ears, it’s called ‘hammer-headed’. Most horses that are ‘hammer-headed’ are also ‘ewe-necked’; both serious faults in the horse.


https://hoovesblog.com/2013/12/13/the-head-you-want-to-ride/


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## Dehda01

phantomhorse13 said:


> I don't recall seeing anything dishier than that at Vermont a few weeks ago, though Iggy's head probably matches it. A lot less baby oil though. :wink: [Sorry to have missed meeting you in person if you were there!]
> 
> 
> 
> :rofl:
> 
> Next time someone calls one of our arabs a 'dent-head,' this spoon comment will be all I can think of!


There was a grey with a very pretty head and wide eyes, and a bay that was quite pretty but not quite as dishy. I think I was told the bay was polish bred. Didn't pushy any further than that. Not the right time Had a wedding up that way and stopped In Hoping to see a crew I recognized. I wasn't there long.


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## Smilie

Dehda01 said:


> There was a grey with a very pretty head and wide eyes, and a bay that was quite pretty but not quite as dishy. I think I was told the bay was polish bred. Didn't pushy any further than that. Not the right time Had a wedding up that way and stopped In Hoping to see a crew I recognized. I wasn't there long.


Like many threads, this one has gone off track, with Arabian people appearing as if the typey dished face of their breed is being attacked. Not so.
What is being questioned, is the modern breeding of some Arabians that have selected for extreme expression of those characteristics, so that it is then detriment 
Old idea of if something 



is good, then more is always better, and even more is better still, with loss of sight, as to function.
It does not happen just in some conformation trait, but also in events, as in the era of the peanut rolling four beating western pl horses
A level topline was natural, in some of the foundation pleasure horse sires, like Zippo Pine Bar, along with the ability to lope slow and correct
Soon, head lower still, and just as slow as possible lope , became, 'better' with many of those trainers and breeders, with that low head making it impossible for the horse to elevate shoulders, and slow above correctness, producing 4 beat lopes
Soring occurred, when the BIg Lick, natural to TW, was taken to extreme, creating exaggerated movement, because if high leg action was good, then high as possible became better, at whatever cost
There is nothing wrong with a typey chiseled Arabian head with a dish
In fact those are excellent examples of the desert bred Arabian.
There is something wrong, when breeders take those feature to extreme, through selective breeding to increase expression of those characteristics, beyond what nature ever intended


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## Gryff1976

Well...i think my mare has a beautiful head. There's absolutely no mistaken her as anything other than an Arabian but it's not too extreme. Side's breeding is Thee Desperado, Bey Shah. DAM IS Carmague, Aswan, El Shaklan.


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## DanisMom

tinyliny said:


> It would be interesting to see the skull of a horse with a very dishy face. I don't know why, but you could see the real bone deep differences. And to see the skull compared to a horse with a flat, and with a Roman nose would be interesting.
> 
> I've always wondered how anthropologists can tell when some small fragment of bone is from a new species of humanoid, or is just an example of intra-species variation. I mean, within **** Sapiens there is HUGE variation in bone and skeleton shaping. Same with horses, and same with arab horses. Wonder what a far in the future anthropologist , who had perhaps never seen a real live horse, woudl say if they saw the extreme skulls of horse head, from Roman to uber-dished.


I think Dr. Deb Bennett did an article on that once with photos and drawings. I don't know if you could locate it with a search engine or not. It was probably in an Equus magazine but it's been awhile and I wouldn't even attempt to guess how long ago.


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## Avna

When a group decides to breed a line of horses to look a particular way without doing anything except being on the end of a lead rope, for a prize, the trajectory is always toward exaggeration, and loss of performance qualities. ALWAYS. No exceptions that I've ever found. It is baked into the process. 

It is not the same as being typey. Every breed has traits which identify it, which also enhance its intended use. That's type. Type needs always to pass through the refiner's fire of performance, otherwise it becomes debased into a image, not a horse. 

I can't exaggerate how strongly I feel about this, and were I queen of the world, there would be no purely halter classes over the age of two. Saddle and ride, folks.


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## Smilie

The entire point, as summed up above.
Thus, I think there is no need for Arabian people to keep posting pictures of their horses with dishy faces, as that has zero to do with this thread.
I appreciate any horse resembling type, but not when some trait of that type, is taken to extreme, and no longer tested as to 'form to function'.
Ie, working dogs not worked, and horses not ridden, to prove form to function is not lost
Great to have nice feet, that match body mass, versus pan cake type feet, but when someone takes that trait to extreme, breeds horse with massive bodies and small feet, with the 'more is better' idea, we all know where that went.
Great for anyone making money treating navicular horses!


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## tinyliny

I love seeing the faces of members' horses! I don't see why they should stop posting. It's nice to see the variety of Arabian horse faces.

The point of the thread was whether or not the dished face ( my bad for calling it the "Jibbah") in the extreme causes health issues. 

I admit that I am not fond of the 'seahorse' look, as it makes what to me seems to be a characature of a hrose, like some kind of toy. However, my question was not is such a face 'right' or 'wrong', but rather, at what point does it cause health issues to the horse.


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## loosie

Smilie said:


> Thus, I think there is no need for Arabian people to keep posting pictures of their horses with dishy faces, as that has zero to do with this thread.


Yes, but it's nice to look at pretty girls like Gryff's anyway!


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## Gryff1976

Smilie said:


> The entire point, as summed up above.
> Thus, I think there is no need for Arabian people to keep posting pictures of their horses with dishy faces, as that has zero to do with this thread.


The thread is titled "the jibbah; when is enough too much". I posted pictures of my Arabian with a dishy head to ask people's opinions about is hers too much. I'd say that had an awful lot to do with this thread!


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## Smilie

Gryff1976 said:


> The thread is titled "the jibbah; when is enough too much". I posted pictures of my Arabian with a dishy head to ask people's opinions about is hers too much. I'd say that had an awful lot to do with this thread!


Your horse just has a nice typey Arabian face, and not one of the extreme examples given, where 'enough was certainly more then enough!
I don't think anyone would criticize a head like your horse has, as it is typical of some Arabian horse lines going back to their place of origin, and not some modern result of mis guided selective breeding
That was my point, as I don't wish anyone to think us non Arabian people are bashing classic Arabian heads.
You have a pretty horse!


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## Smilie

tinyliny said:


> I love seeing the faces of members' horses! I don't see why they should stop posting. It's nice to see the variety of Arabian horse faces.
> 
> The point of the thread was whether or not the dished face ( my bad for calling it the "Jibbah") in the extreme causes health issues.
> 
> I admit that I am not fond of the 'seahorse' look, as it makes what to me seems to be a characature of a hrose, like some kind of toy. However, my question was not is such a face 'right' or 'wrong', but rather, at what point does it cause health issues to the horse.


Right, and I certainly like to see member's hroses also, but the topic got a bit confused, unless the poster stated that their horse demonstrated a typey Arabian head, and not the extreme version, which does cause health issues, as per links in previous posts


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## Fimargue

@Gryff1976 - Beautiful girl. She looks a lot like my second mare who is quite Heavily Aswan bred in the sireline her grandsire being Balaton's son and granddam Vatican's daughter.

Her dam's sire is Sky Crusader.



* 

Typey = looks like an Arabian. Then in play comes different opinions about what looks enough like an Arabian for someone. My girls are different types, but they're very obviously Arabians. Even though I was recently asked if Talila is a KWPN. The person has a small KWPN with an Arab-y head herself. We also have a Westfalien pony here who I could swear is an Arab.



Talila with her basic expression lol. Her sire is by Mohafez out of Salima and dam is by Ekla de Gargassan out of Almas Al Nafara.


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## Gryff1976

@fimargue Beautiful horses.


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## palogal

As hubby says, "When they look like they've been bashed in a the head with a 2x4, it's too much".

I stopped accepting Arabians into training a few years ago due to the stupidity of the breeding of modern Arabs. I kept getting the spindly legged, over dished face, spooky and goofy ones and they just aren't worth the time. The owner would take them home, unable to maintain the training and then I got them back. No thanks. My theory (based on absolutely nothing) is that the dished face puts pressure on he brain and makes them stupid. 

I do like the older lines, that look like classic Arabian horses with the very sculpted head, triangular looking hip etc. They still do some of the snorty, high headed Arabian type stuff, but they're smart, hard working and train up well. They also have sufficient bone and depth, they can actually work.


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## 6gun Kid

There is a ranch in New Mexico, the Hindi ranch that raises Arabian stock horses, now those I like! Western Horseman did an article on them.


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## 6gun Kid

found the link
Arabian Wind - Hindi Horses - Western Horseman


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## KigerQueen

you all will get a kick out of this poor animal then. i Like an arab face like Fimargue's gray mare. obviously an arab with a pritty head but dose not look like a seahorse...























looks close enough to me...
in all seriousness what health issues might be caused by that face shape?


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