# Clinton Anderson



## KigerQueen

i LIKE the methods (and so dose my arab). i feel that Clinton can be a bit of a jerk but at the same time he deals with stupid people ALOT and i get that way myself after a long day in retail. I do NOT like the "trainers" who copy or teach his method and beat the snot out of the horse. i shy away from most c/a people because they fallow him like a cult at times and god forbit i use a difrent methods for something instead of 100% his method.

i do particularly enjoy his series on titan. nice to see even one of his horses being a bit of a snot. and i see him correct thing that alot of people would let slide and cause more issues down the line (with a stud at least)


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## horseluvr2524

Can of worms... we need an emoticon for that.

I don't really follow any one trainer. I have methods that I like and ones I don't like, I take what I like and can use and leave the rest.

I mostly just wanted to say "can of worms".

BTW welcome to the forum! Interesting first thread...


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## Greenmeadows

horseluvr2524 said:


> BTW welcome to the forum! Interesting first thread...


Thanks!


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## BreezylBeezyl

I like Clinton a lot. His methods are incredibly effective, and I'd be hard pressed to believe someone who says that they don't work on their horse (I'd be more likely to believe that the handlers aren't performing the methods correctly). I think his system is very easily understood by horses on a psychological level and leaves little room for lack of clarity. He's really no different than any other horse trainer in that he too uses the basic "ask, tell, demand" pyramid - he just performs it in quick succession, making his methods successful and effective.

Speaking of a can of worms, I have an unpopular opinion that many of his 'haters' are more of the recreational/casual type of riders. As someone who shows and is involved in performance horses, riding for leisure quite rarely, I can say his methods really work for training and conditioning the mind of the equine athlete. They are incredibly effective in establishing clear boundaries and a work ethic in the horse.

I can see why people may not like him as a person as he is a lot like his training methods: direct, blunt, and leaves little room for failure. He has high expectations for his students and his horses. If you don't have a competitive mindset and don't have a tough skin, you won't like him. Period. He's great for riders who want to show, be competitive and become better performance riders, but a lot of the recreational riders will get offended by him. 

Regardless, it doesn't matter if your horse is a performance or leisure horse, they all can benefit from his methods. It's all about whether the handler/rider can tolerate the pressure of his methods and him as a trainer.


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## natisha

He always wears a hat. Anything beyond that would be my opinion, which you don't want.


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## Prairie

IMO, he's just another trainer who has copied some of the greats that went before him and now markets them as his. 


A good horseman has a large bag of "tricks" to pull from so he has the flexibility to work with the unique individual horse and not try to use a "one technique works on all horses" approach so I don't follow any specific trainer, but do tend to rely on what the "old timers" taught me when I bought my first horses. I've used some of Clinton's methods on horses where it was appropriate for that specific horse and have at times modified his method to work better for a horse or combined several trainer's techniques to work for the individual horse I'm working. IMO, more important than following a specific trainer is being able to read the horse so you know what techniques will work with that individual.


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## BreezylBeezyl

> IMO, he's just another trainer who has copied some of the greats that went before him and now markets them as his.


While I'm certainly not going to stalk this thread and defend Clinton like a biased fangirl, I do want to say that *all *horseman/horsewomen use the same basics: ask, tell, demand. Negative and positive reinforcement. Make the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard. All of those concepts are universal to horse trainers because this is what horses understand. This is how humans communicate to horses. To call it copying seems a little misguided. What makes him 'unique', as all trainers are unique in their own way, is his delivery.


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## Prairie

BreezylBeezyl said:


> While I'm certainly not going to stalk this thread and defend Clinton like a biased fangirl, I do want to say that *all *horseman/horsewomen use the same basics: ask, tell, demand. Negative and positive reinforcement. Make the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard. All of those concepts are universal to horse trainers because this is what horses understand. This is how humans communicate to horses. To call it copying seems a little misguided. What makes him 'unique', as all trainers are unique in their own way, is his delivery.



He's copied old horse trainers like Tom Dorrance and Ray Hunt who were the beginning of "natural horsemanship". It's how the basics were applied that changed, and they were among the first to work "with" the horse instead of resorting to force, pain, and brutality.


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## Greenmeadows

natisha said:


> He always wears a hat. Anything beyond that would be my opinion, which you don't want.


Lol! I just do not like people giving opinions without stating some of the reasons why they formed that opinion.


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## secuono

Ohh, I don't believe this will stay friendly for long.... =(


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## Mulefeather

I feel like his methods work for a lot of people because they are easy to replicate, and are generally clear on establishing respect and control on the ground – what a lot of the people I see in his Youtube series really need because they have lost confidence, or the horse has their number, or they just generally don’t understand that they need to take charge of the situation. 

I dislike the hype that goes around it, but if it works and benefits the relationship between the horse and handler in a positive way, I consider him worth studying especially for new horse handlers, specifically BECAUSE it’s easy to replicate. That early success might be ham-fisted when compared to much more refined trainers, but for a green horse owner, if it helps them understand a basic sense of the horse’s psychology and keeps both horse and handler safe, so much the better. 

You can search the world over and find a clinician or trainer who you like more, but it’s not a bad place to start if the methods are practiced as they are intended and with some common sense. 

One thing I always see when we have these discussions is “he repackaged someone else’s stuff”. Isn’t that true of basically every NH person out there? Ray Hunt learned from Tom Dorrance. Buck Brannaman learned from Ray Hunt.

Clinton Anderson obviously had his own mentors and trainers over the years – none of us are born knowing this stuff, and so far nobody has managed to create a methodology purely from scratch with no influence or help. That’s like saying Plato learned from Socrates – true, but Plato also had his own way of doing things, just as all trainers develop their own “flavor” of training and their own approach to doing things. No method is 100% exactly alike, and just because it was based off someone else’s teachings doesn’t invalidate the method or the way that particular person approaches it. 

My question is, at what point does a clinician create enough “new” material? Or do we just trot out an old, tired cliché of a phrase every time we see something new in the horse training world that isn’t packaged in a way we want to see?


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## BreezylBeezyl

I wrote a long post, but Mulefeather said it more diplomatically than I could have. Thank you.

I think horsemanship is one of those things where a master teaches his student, and that student takes what he learned from his master and adds his own spices into the mix, and so on and so forth down the evolutionary path. We all know this is a sport that can't be done alone. Many of us with no experience have gone out and bought a horse with no knowledge what-so-ever of the animal and then gone, "Okay, I need help!". From there, we spend years paying trainers to teach us how to teach our horses - but where and whom did they learn from? Another trainer with another training program, who learned from another trainer before them.

And the cycle continues.

I applaud Clinton for his success. His methods really do work and are popular because they are fairly easy to follow. He has a great marketing team, which I think annoys people, but I do have to give him credit for trying his darndest to make a career in this world for himself. Many of us can only dream of getting a foot in this industry, professionally speaking. He did it, and did it well.


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## secuono

Will**
My bad. Can't edit it anymore and it bothers me that the wrong word is there. 




I've seen him working horses into the ground in many videos, he seems to rush everything. And no one, except one lady that I saw, wears a helmet after he or his workers mess with the horse. He flips between not accepting lazy, slow going horses to loving them and letting them get away with random things. 


Lots of his stuff works for many horses, but like training any animal, not one person's set of methods will work for all individuals.


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## jaydee

I managed to make a good living out of successfully breaking, training and rehabbing problem horses before CA was even born or at least before he was out of school, I didn't even know he existed until I moved to the US so I can't say that I've ever felt the need to 'follow' him. 
I have watched some of his videos and his TV shows out of curiosity to see what the interest in him was and he's a good rider and horseman, confident and knows where to place himself around a horse that's acting up to avoid getting into trouble - which is something the typical novice owner trying to emulate him wouldn't be so good at so that might be a huge negative.
I personally find his approach too aggressive and confrontational and some of his techniques I would totally disagree with from an English riding perspective but I guess his aim is more towards the Western riding world
I can't see that he does anything original that hasn't been done before - just wraps it up in different coloured paper.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

secuono said:


> Will**
> My bad. Can't edit it anymore and it bothers me that the wrong word is there.


Correction taken care of.


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## gottatrot

horseluvr2524 said:


> I don't really follow any one trainer. I have methods that I like and ones I don't like, I take what I like and can use and leave the rest.


This is my technique also. I like to see many different methods so I have things to try if I find a horse that doesn't respond. Many things I can just reject right away, but some I keep in the back of my mind in case I ever want to use them. 

As with all the trainers I've watched, CA has several useful things and many that only would apply to a certain type of horse in a certain type of situation. For instance, a young horse that has been allowed to run off kicking when the supposedly horse savvy owners try to work with him. For this horse getting his attention with fast, hard work and being extra assertive breaks through and makes the horse listen. For this horse, he's just seeing what he can get away with and is young and full of energy. 

But globally applied to any horse that runs away kicking, you might find some that are leaving due to fear, from having been worked too hard and without understanding, etc. Those horses might get worse with fast, hard, aggressive work. So that's where a training "method" cannot be applied universally. Horses don't have universal motivations for their behaviors. 

One of CA's methods I've tried is working a horse around the horse trailer opening as a means of getting them into a "working mode" and not thinking about their fear of getting into the trailer. With a hot, reactive horse this made the horse work up even more, to begin associating the horse trailer with more excitement and fear, and did not help the situation. With a slow moving, non-reactive horse, it did distract the horse and get her closer to the trailer, and she went in pretty quickly. But she was not really afraid of the trailer, just reluctant. There are no universal methods, just techniques to try with different individual horses.


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## KigerQueen

i have worked with CA methods with both my arabian and our paint. my arab loves it. the paint not so much. i found out if i use CA on his he turns into a neurotic bolty and dangerous mess while it dose just the opposite for my arab. BUT classical english training works wonders on my paint and relaxes him. so again i believe that ANY trainer who says this methods works for all horses is a fool. even HE admitted he dose different things for his profprmance horses. thats not what he markets though.


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## Smilie

CA is a trainer that perhaps uses some stronger methods then many other NH trainers, but he also works in the real world, turning out horses that work in many disciplines and are safe to ride out.

Sure, he has some influence for the likes of Tom Dorrance, and others, just like some many classical trainers have a strong influence from those old masters, to the point of never getting beyond what they stated, clinging to all that methodology as un questionable doctrine
Is he a bit full of himself at times?-sure, that that is common territory with any horse trainer, I have found!
Do I follow him, use just his methods? Certainly not! You become a good horseman/woman, by taking clinics from many sources, then taking what works for you and your horses, from each one of them=riding and training many horses, not one or two.
One thing I will say, I would ride a horse trained by CA, probably with more confidence, then by some of his detractors here.


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## ThunderingHooves

Personally I like his method. I went to a couple of his walkabout tours since we got free tickets. It was a great way to see how the method works in person. After that I decided to go ahead and get his kits. I now have almost all of his kits except for the colt starting and the foal training. 

I like the fact that he gets straight to the point. He isn't afraid to speak his mind. Some people might get put off by that, but I like that part about him. I also like how he puts things in a very easy way to understand them. I don't like the fact that almost everything seems to be about money, but to be fair he has made comments that you don't "need" his brand of stuff, they just make it easier. 

His method works very well with almost every horse I have tried. I've trained Jinxx with it and he turning into a wonderful horse. There was also one horse this lady had saved from slaughter that was very dangerous to be around. If you got in the pen with her she would charge at you, rear up on you, and try to double kick you. I went over there and started working with the horse. In just a few days with working with the horse and the method there was a huge difference.


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## Rain Shadow

I love his methods. 

His lunging series is amazing. I also love how he works a horse through scary obstacles. I'm not a big fan though of how much he flexs a horse undersaddle, but I'm a trail rider dabbling in endurance so I don't worry about head carriage. 
to much. 

His methods seem to work best on bolder horses and horses that have been allowed to get away with a lot of bad behavior. I do find he's easily tuned back for a more timid horse, though I tend not to use him on a rescue until they get more confidence in me. 

My friend is a big follower, she uses his method on her OTTB, has attended a private clinic by one of his trainers, and WOW the difference in that horse. He was pushy, no respect for space, needed a chain to be lead, and now a kid could probably lead him. 

A big thing she's noticed is timing is crucial. The private clinic worked a lot on that and she says if you want to follow CA you really need to try and do a clinic on timing if you are a newb or not an experienced trainer. 

She's going back in a few months to a trailer loading clinic because that's her horse's issue and I'm really excited to see what she learns. She has a lot of the same issues I have with trailering Kenzie, and she can normally help me after she gets the hands on advice for training.


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## KLJcowgirl

Prairie said:


> but do tend to *rely on what the "old timers" taught me* when I bought my first horses.


This is kind of the reason I do like him.

I had heard a bunch about him, people LOVING and HATING him as well, so I only recently (last month) started watching his videos because I HATE being in the middle of stuff like that. But so far I have been really enjoying them because a fair chunk of what he is doing is dang near exactly what I remember my Grandpa (a grizzled old Nevada rancher) doing. Especially the round penning techniques. 

My Grandpa died when I was in my mid teens and I can't hardly remember everything he taught me, but I see a lot of what I was taught already in CA's vids. I'll watch something and go "OOOOOOOHHHH that's right, I've seen Grandpa do that." Or, "I remember Grandpa having me do that! Why haven't I kept doing that?". It's been a very good reminder, and showed me a bunch of what I've been slacking on. 

I think a lot of the disdain for "Famous horse trainers" stems from a couple things:

1) They were the smart farts who picked up on how to make money from old tried and true methods.

2) And what other's have mentioned elsewhere, people tend to follow them in a Cult like manner. If you stray from one certain trainers methods, you suck!

3) Their methods don't line up with YOUR beliefs/morals or standards.

(I haven't read all the replies yet, maybe someone already mentioned the above reasons ^^^)

I will NOT be religiously following what he does, I will look at what others have as well, but I may be inclined to purchase stuff... who knows, I'm pretty cheap. I'm already trying out his method for a buddy sour horse, and so far I've seen a bit of good progress, nothing else I have tried has worked quite as well.... but I gotta stick to it so we'll see.

Just use good judgement and don't become a Sheeple. There, there's my opinion. :lol:


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## cbar

I'm indifferent. I can respect that he has made a name for himself. I find that on the odd occasion I watch one of his videos he is very to-the-point which I like as it's easier to get what he means. I would use his techniques if I thought they might help, just like I'd likely use any other trainer's techniques that would suit me/work for me in certain instances. 

I neither love him or hate him. 

I find the over-marketing VERY annoying though. Almost like over-compensation (like a small dude in a HUGE truck). But that's my personal opinion and I just slipped it in here.


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## tinyliny

Small dude in a big truck! ****!


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## tinyliny

horseluvr2524 said:


> Can of worms... we need an emoticon for that.
> 
> I don't really follow any one trainer. I have methods that I like and ones I don't like, I take what I like and can use and leave the rest.
> 
> I mostly just wanted to say "can of worms".
> 
> BTW welcome to the forum! Interesting first thread...


Why.. ,? Why do you say that ? That he's a can of worms ? Please elaborate if you will.


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## Greenmeadows

secuono said:


> He flips between not accepting lazy, slow going horses to loving them and letting them get away with random things.


Just out of curiosity, what sort of random things have you noticed that he lets the horses get away with? I never really noticed him flipping between accepting lazy horses or getting after them, I only seen that he likes a horse to do what he asked when he asked, and to keep a level head throughout the process. I noticed that he rubs on them when he desensitized a horse and he wants it to relax.


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## Hackamore

I am not a CA follower, but I have been exposed to his methods and have seen a couple of his clinics many years ago. He is a showman & business man 1st & foremost, but I do feel that his straight forward way of explaining things and even his canned training method does have some value for a beginner horse person. This is a good starting point for a beginner to learn some basics, but as with any training I would never suggest a person to limit themselves to one method or one way of approaching a horse. 

In terms of making great saddle horses there are many great horseman to learn from. Some well-known and some not well known. You should understand that being a good horseman does not require one to have a TV show. A Good trainer requires a strong understanding of horse behavior and a wide array of methods to be successful with any horse.


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## BreezylBeezyl

I don't really _follow_ his methods either, despite being a fan of his. I've never bought any of his products, kits, or DVDs and likely never will. What I have enjoyed immensely is his TV series on his YouTube channel, as well as his current series on his up and coming reining stallion, Titan.

A lot of what he has taught me is that corrections need to be *instant and clear* with no room for ambiguation to be successful. That's all Clinton does really, in any situation he encounters with a horse. He's pretty darn quick and firm about saying "Yeah no, we're not doing that today, we're doing this" and "Okay, if you want to do that I'm going to make it a heck of a lot more work for you!". The second a horse lets out some bad behavior, Clinton is right there _immediately_, correcting it by letting the horse know that that was not the correct decision to make. Trainers preach this kind of thing all the time, but I find his particular delivery of this theory very on point.

The difference I'm finding between his TV series and his series on his horse, Titan, is he's much more aggressive with other people's horses. However, I also think that to be fair, many of those horses were lacking the basic manners a good riding horse needs to have and several of them were legitimately dangerous. He was drawing a clear line that is not to be crossed for those horses and their owners.

When I see him riding and training Titan, a horse who he has spent years training, he is much more gentle. But this is also because this horse has a good foundation: no vices and no behavioral issues that Clinton needs to 'deal' with. He doesn't need to be so aggressive with this horse. Does that mean he doesn't correct him when it's necessary? Absolutely not. But Titan is at the level where corrections come down to performance training and perfection only. 

I think he's as gentle or firm as he needs to be with whatever horse he is working with. I think a lot of people see the more aggressive side of him because so many of his videos and clinics focus on colt starting or problem horses - horses you MUST be firm with for safety purposes.


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## Foxhunter

I love his humour - typical Aussie! 

I did enjoy the series about catching the brumby, mainly because it was so different to anything I have ever seen before. 

Other than that some of his methods I like, some not so much. 

Like all these trainers that have made a name, it goes to theor head a bit.


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## beau159

Greenmeadows said:


> Please give factual reasons, not just opinions. What do you think he does correctly, or incorrectly?


Facts?? There are no "facts" when it comes to someone's _opinion  on if a horse trainer does things correctly or not. Ask one question and you'll get 6 different opinions from 4 people. 

And that's a fact. :wink:

On a side note, I like him because he explains what he is doing, when, and why. But I feel he can be way more aggressive than what the average horse person needs to do, so take his methods with a grain of salt._


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## 6gun Kid

I like him....and I don"t. I like his approach, although a bit aggressive, he turns out usable horses in a lot of different fields. I do not like his floppy, over flexed, behind the vertical horses.


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## carp614

It looks like he is a very effective businessman. His energy and smarts have taken him a long way...you have to give him that, no matter what you think of his methods. 

As a beginner in the horse world, what impresses me about him and his method is the disciplined, assertive, results oriented approach. it's clear that his method works on horses and people. Since I'm coming at it from the perspective of learning all that I can, I especially like the fact that his method trains the owner as much as the horse.

He's not the only one of course, but that is what I like about him. 

One other thing, the content available online regarding his method is a little more comprehensive (and more polished) than what is available from other famous trainers.


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## jaydee

6gun Kid said:


> I like him....and I don"t. I like his approach, although a bit aggressive, he turns out usable horses in a lot of different fields. *I do not like his floppy, over flexed, behind the vertical horses*.


 That's why some of his riding training methods don't work so well for 'English' horses


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## QHDragon

Do not like him, at all. 

For one thing if you watch his reining videos all you will see is a horse that has clearly been jerked on and yanked backwards many, many times. The horse looks brow beaten and ready to fly in reverse at any moment. He is BTV, backed off, and just looks miserable. 

Also, he (at least use to) have on his website a statement that your horse will likely get girth galls and/or be made sore by his training camp. Not acceptable. 

Not to mention the horse that died while in his care.


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## Greenmeadows

beau159 said:


> Facts?? There are no "facts" when it comes to someone's _opinion  on if a horse trainer does things correctly or not. Ask one question and you'll get 6 different opinions from 4 people.
> 
> And that's a fact. :wink:
> _


_
I meant that I did not want posts saying stuff like "Anderson is stupid and I do not like him", or "Anderson is the greatest trainer ever". That does not really say anything about the method he uses.  
Thank you, everyone for all the great posts!_


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## Jan1975

carp614 said:


> It looks like he is a very effective businessman. His energy and smarts have taken him a long way...you have to give him that, no matter what you think of his methods.


He's definitely #1 in his ability to market and in his on-screen presence. You need the smarts/skills, the cowboy look, and the ability to sell yourself. He's got all 3. This explains his success even if he hasn't done anything that another trainer hasn't already thought of.


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## 3Horses2DogsandaCat

When I first got into horse ownership as an adult, I started watching horse-training videos. I liked Clinton the best because he is clear and consistent. Another trainer I watched was constantly changing his instructions. I think Clinton makes it easy for beginners to learn. I went to one of his clinics, and he made sure the audience understood the method. He is a bit rough on the horses for my taste, but I'm a softie. I do think he's very funny.


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## Idrivetrotters

I respect CA as a marketing business man, not so much as a horseman. I'm a track rat so dealing with opinionated, over compensating males is what I do, but CA takes being a giant bag of douche to a whole level that is not necessary nor wanted. I've ridden 3 CA trained horses, 2 from his ranch, 1 from a follower and I have to say, I was not impressed. His horses are over reactors because many get harsh handling and over corrected so the horse is afraid of making mistakes. I personally do not want a horse who is afraid of making a mistake, because mistakes happen on both our parts. I've had a few horses save my butt because I misjudged an obstacle, but the horse was confident in themselves and confident in me knowing that they "got this boss" attitude. I find his rollkur very disturbing with many of Titan's videos, he is behind the vertical over 50% of the time, and one video, Titan was behind the vertical for almost 70% of the video. I also don't like CA's attitude of "women can't handle studs" that is just ignorant and shows his true personality and disrespects the thousands of women who handle colts and studs on a daily basis.

CA does the "correct and leave 'em alone" which is typical, he is nothing new, just a smile with an accent and a great marketing gimmick.

CA also just insulted about 95% of is customers in his last video, so let's see what fall out if any, comes from this.

Now, I should put in the disclaimer I'm not a Western horse person, I've not owned a stock/ranch horse in over 30 years, I ride English although I compete in Limited Distance and Combined Driving so I need a confident partner who is problem solving/thinking while on trail or course, not a mindless robot with learned helplessness, which is what many of CA (and other clinicians I've seen) churn out. If that is what blows air up your skirt, no judgments, just as long as the horse is mentally happy and physically sound, ride how you like.


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## Mulefeather

Given the most recent video, my opinion of the man himself has changed for the worse. I still stand behind that he's worth studying, as I'm a believer in the concept of everyone having something to teach (be it good, bad, or in-between), but I would never encourage someone to model themselves personally after the man. 

One thing it takes to make success in business is showmanship, and many people who are showmen and salesmen to great success are also great big jerks - note that I say MANY, not ALL. There's more than one way to succeed with horses, and there are many different personalities at work in the horse world who are succeeding. Clinton made a bad business move with that video - he let his inner opinions out into a world where bad press spreads like lightening. It just goes to show that while he's successful, he needs to learn he's not untouchable.


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## tinyliny

what video is that? that you feel is a mistake?

I like that Clinton is out there for folks to find. some peope feel very hopeless with their horses, and he gives them hope that they CAN retake control. so, he has been a real savior to a lot of people. I appreciate that, and he is very clear in his instruction, which is also a good thing.

however, he , like many others, seeks to give people a 'formula' . and while that might be the onlly thing that they CAN understand, it has distinct limits. the same forumula used for a problem horse will make a nice, every day good horse become tense and worried. in fact, any horse I've seen trained CA becomes worried when they enter the round pen. either, worried, or bored. they know that there is a routine, and that they need to jump to it promptly, or they will be pushed even harder. even a horse that enters the round pen with no attitude adjustment needed, gets handled the same way as the problem horse.

this is probably not how Clinton handles horses on his own, but since he has so confidently taught his students, they just follow that routine and nothing else.

if you've ever seen a more refined, more sensitive horseman, with that legendary feel and timing work with horses, you will know that CA is a good horseman, but FAR, FAR from a great one. and that's ok. he would probably tell you that himself. I've heard he's a nice guy and a hoot to hang with.


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## Idrivetrotters

@tinyliny Clinton did one of his Titan videos, and he went on a solid rant on his "fat a$$, tree hugging, bitless bridle, trail riding ladies" and "women can't handle a stud colt" (which he has said on several occasions, why I despised him from the beginning)

I honestly feel that there are much better clinicians out there who doesn't have the baggage that Clinton does, and he just insulted the vast majority of his clients, who are mostly females who ride for pleasure/trails. No true horseman is going to buy his kits and dvds, so either he wants to retire and is looking for a way to do that, or he finally is getting too comfortable with his "I'm an a$$hole" persona, either way, he seems to be killing the golden goose.


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## Mulefeather

Idrivetrotters said:


> @*tinyliny* Clinton did one of his Titan videos, and he went on a solid rant on his "fat a$$, tree hugging, bitless bridle, trail riding ladies" and "women can't handle a stud colt" (which he has said on several occasions, why I despised him from the beginning)
> 
> I honestly feel that there are much better clinicians out there who doesn't have the baggage that Clinton does, and he just insulted the vast majority of his clients, who are mostly females who ride for pleasure/trails. No true horseman is going to buy his kits and dvds, so either he wants to retire and is looking for a way to do that, or he finally is getting too comfortable with his "I'm an a$$hole" persona, either way, he seems to be killing the golden goose.


Yep, this is exactly what I was talking about. He's allowed to have his opinions, but he's basically biting the hand that feeds him.


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## Joel Reiter

Wow, a whole new busy thread on Clinton Anderson and I missed the whole thing because I got booted out by the password fiasco. Here are some facts about Clinton Anderson:

1. He just turned 40. He was a national polocrosse rider as a child. His first mentor was Gordon McKinlay, who was recovering from a broken pelvis when Clinton started. Anderson credits Gordon’s caution with the fact that he has never been injured by a horse. In two years working for McKinlay, Clinton trained over 600 horses, many of which were captured wild in the Outback.

2. At 17 he apprenticed with champion reiner and cutting horse trainer Ian Francis. Clinton Anderson gives all the credit in the world to those two men, as well as Kel Jeffrey, who pioneered the colt starting technique that McKinlay taught to Anderson. All three men were Australians.

3. Clinton Anderson says he regularly buys new horse training DVDs, and feels that if he gets one idea from a DVD that helps him explain something more clearly, it was worth the money.

4. He started his own training business when he was 18.

5. While Clinton uses the same method on all horses, if you study one of his kits, instead of YouTube, you will find that he describes how to apply the techniques differently according to the unique characteristics of each horse.

6. In 1997 he moved to the US. At some point he married an American woman, set up a training facility in Ohio, then divorced and moved his business to Texas.

7. The RFD TV show he started in 2001 was the first and still the number one horse show on the network.

8. Clinton Anderson does not claim to be the greatest horse trainer. His goal is to be the greatest people trainer.

9. In the 18 years I have owned my horse, I have watched and studied John Lyons, Monty Roberts, Pat Parelli, Stacy Westfall, Mark Rashid, Shawna Karrasch, Buck Brannaman, Julie Goodnight, Ken McNabb, Richard Winters, Charles Wilhelm, Craig Cameron, and a dozen more trainers, but it was Clinton Anderson’s material that helped me the most.

10. Since the first time I saw Clinton Anderson in 2005, he has become a great deal more outspoken and profane. When I last attended one of his tours in 2014 he announced that he would like to groom a successor and retire.

So those are facts. And if he offends you, I suspect that's because he's become kind of offensive, and I don't think he really cares. But that's just my opinion.


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## tinyliny

interesting bio, thanks, Joel
big name trainers like him get burned out. he's a human being.


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## QHDragon

Here's the video: https://youtu.be/1DhWU4y6wIs

The comment:
?Every man watching this video right now knows when you?ve got a 15-16 year old and he?s full of testosterone and he thinks he?s the king of the house; every once in a while you?ve gotta knock the **** out of him for 10 seconds just so he remembers, remind them there is a pecking order. Now the women that are watching this, that make fun of me, those tree hugging idiots that ride in a bit less bridle and trailride, you know they?re close to nature. They hear what I just said and say it?s barbaric, they?ve never trained a stud in their entire life and I wish they would cause they?d get killed and that would get rid of all these people that annoy the **** out of me. They?ve never trained a stud in their whole life, their idea of accomplishment is a horse that stands still on a mounting block <<oh my god he stood still now I can put one mounting block on top of the other and get my fat *** on>>. They don?t know how to train a horse, they?re unrealistic, they?re idiots.?

Smartpak is looking at pulling their sponsorship and I hope other companies follow suit. So much for being a smart business man. He just alienated a good chunk of the horse riding population.


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## Joel Reiter

Yeah, that's just sad. I'm not sure where all that anger comes from. He is making a perfectly reasonable point about how we don't want to know about what it takes to make a top competition horse, but instead of doing it in a way that might educate and enlighten, he goes on a profane attack. What he says while he's riding is bad enough, but then he feels the need to add a completely offensive and inappropriate studio session. The sad thing is he doesn't seem to be listening to anyone any more. Clinton needs help.


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## jaydee

So much about that video was wrong. The constant use of hyperflexion, the fact that he said the horse's neck was 'straight' at a point when it was actually curved right over and completely btv, the horse is young and when it makes a small mistake it gets yanked for it instead of being quietly corrected - hence the reason why his horses are starting to look anxious and rather than working willingly are working because they're bullied and afraid not too. That attitude might be fine as long as they have a very dominant rider like he is but as soon as they realise they're being ridden by a novice rider that wants more of a partnership based on mutual respect the shine starts to tarnish very quickly
If someone want to produce a reining horse then the Titan series might work for them but it would destroy an English horse and if he wants to have a bigger global following like PP and Monty R he can't afford to be so limited in his methods


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## Foxhunter

QHDragon said:


> The comment:
> ?Every man watching this video right now knows when you?ve got a 15-16 year old and he?s full of testosterone and he thinks he?s the king of the house; every once in a while you?ve gotta knock the **** out of him for 10 seconds just so he remembers, remind them there is a pecking order. Now the women that are watching this, that make fun of me, those tree hugging idiots that ride in a bit less bridle and trailride, you know they?re close to nature. They hear what I just said and say it?s barbaric, they?ve never trained a stud in their entire life and I wish they would cause they?d get killed and that would get rid of all these people that annoy the **** out of me. They?ve never trained a stud in their whole life, their idea of accomplishment is a horse that stands still on a mounting block <<oh my god he stood still now I can put one mounting block on top of the other and get my fat *** on>>. They don?t know how to train a horse, they?re unrealistic, they?re idiots.?
> .


I think that a person can get burned out. He goes from place to place, has horses come to him from all over. People who are having problems, many of them serious. People who have bought his videos watched them and still have no idea of the timing or the energy to put it into practise. 

What he said is so very truthful. To many people, especially women think that being nice and loving gets a kind and wonderful horse. The fact that their horse walks all over them means nothing to them, they just cannot see it as ill mannered, through their blinkers they see a horse that loves them and wants to be close to them. 

For me he was not refering to all true horse women, he knows that there are many women who can and do train horses with a direct no nonsense approach that can and do train stud horses.

As many trainers say "It isn't training the animal, it is training the human that counts."


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## jaydee

It doesn't matter who he's referring too, he needs to zip it.


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## Smilie

cbar said:


> I'm indifferent. I can respect that he has made a name for himself. I find that on the odd occasion I watch one of his videos he is very to-the-point which I like as it's easier to get what he means. I would use his techniques if I thought they might help, just like I'd likely use any other trainer's techniques that would suit me/work for me in certain instances.
> 
> I neither love him or hate him.
> 
> I find the over-marketing VERY annoying though. Almost like over-compensation (like a small dude in a HUGE truck). But that's my personal opinion and I just slipped it in here.



Sorta where I stand, and that applies to ALL NH type trainers in particular, whose focus is mainly on trying to teach ABC training techniques to entry level people, that did not grow up with "horse sense'
I happen to think he is better than Parelli, but far as trainers in general, while I might read and watch some NH stuff, I have always taken clinics from those trainers who have proven themselves in disciplines that I was interested in riding in, and taken from each of those clinics, never just following any one of those trainers, what works for me and my horses.

Thus, when I was riding in reining and working cowhorse, \i took clinics from trainers that were successful in those events, and whose methods I found were in line with what I considered fair and humane horse training


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

QHDragon said:


> Here's the video: https://youtu.be/1DhWU4y6wIs
> 
> The comment:
> ?Every man watching this video right now knows when you?ve got a 15-16 year old and he?s full of testosterone and he thinks he?s the king of the house; every once in a while you?ve gotta knock the **** out of him for 10 seconds just so he remembers, remind them there is a pecking order. Now the women that are watching this, that make fun of me, those tree hugging idiots that ride in a bit less bridle and trailride, you know they?re close to nature. They hear what I just said and say it?s barbaric, they?ve never trained a stud in their entire life and I wish they would cause they?d get killed and that would get rid of all these people that annoy the **** out of me. They?ve never trained a stud in their whole life, their idea of accomplishment is a horse that stands still on a mounting block <<oh my god he stood still now I can put one mounting block on top of the other and get my fat *** on>>. They don?t know how to train a horse, they?re unrealistic, they?re idiots.?
> 
> Smartpak is looking at pulling their sponsorship and I hope other companies follow suit. So much for being a smart business man. He just alienated a good chunk of the horse riding population.



Wow. Yeah. 
Um….

Well, I do often ride trails bitless and bareback haven’t had a problem controlling my horse (that I trained). 

I don’t do that because I am trying to be “natural”, I do it because it saves time and because I can. Riding when you aren’t getting paid to do it, tends to mean you have to spend your time doing other things that do bring in $.

I never have trained a stallion, but am working with a colt at the moment and my favorite horse was a working stud until he was 7 and then gelded, still quite studdish in a lot of habits. I’m not dead yet.

I have no desire to have a top competition horse, just good horses that don’t hurt people and can do a job, whether that is working cattle or riding trails, doesn’t matter. A good horse is a good horse. But I guess that if you don't have the ribbons to back it up it means you are automatically less than……..

I’ve raised three teenaged boys and used to coach 20 teenaged ice hockey players some with severe behavior problems and even after 10 years of it, never had to knock even one of them around for 10 seconds or even 3. At 5'4" and 110 lbs, I used my brain and found other ways of appealing to their sensibilities.

Unless I am riding bareback, I don’t use a mounting block. I don’t believe my *** would qualify as fat and neither does my husband. 

Clinton Anderson is in self-destruct mode.


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## Speed Racer

I'm fat, old, have switched to a gaited horse, ride my mare in a hackamore because she's much more tractable without a bit, and now exclusively trail ride.

I paid my dues over 35 years while riding anything with hair and hooves, and my goal now is just to enjoy myself and keep riding.

CA sounds as if his divorce has made him bitter toward women, and his fame has made him overly arrogant. The problem is that there are plenty of misogynistic men and self hating women who will still hang on his every word.

I do think there are far too many noobs, most of them women, who believe that 'training with loooovvvveee' and are rabidly anti-bit, who give the real horse people a bad name. 

You can be fat, old and need a mounting block due to old riding injuries, and still be a real horse person.


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## QHDragon

Joel Reiter said:


> Yeah, that's just sad. I'm not sure where all that anger comes from. He is making a perfectly reasonable point about how we don't want to know about what it takes to make a top competition horse, but instead of doing it in a way that might educate and enlighten, he goes on a profane attack. What he says while he's riding is bad enough, but then he feels the need to add a completely offensive and inappropriate studio session. The sad thing is he doesn't seem to be listening to anyone any more. Clinton needs help.


Career suicide is what it looks like. He just alienated a large group of people that follow him. Most of them are women, most of them have a little bit more around the middle, and most of them are trail riders. I think those that want to make their horse into a top competition horse are going to have that horse in a program with a trainer, not watching Clint Anderson videos, who hasn't exactly made a big name for himself in the reining or working cow horse world. There are many trainers much bigger than he is in that sphere. 



jaydee said:


> So much about that video was wrong. The constant use of hyperflexion, the fact that he said the horse's neck was 'straight' at a point when it was actually curved right over and completely btv, the horse is young and when it makes a small mistake it gets yanked for it instead of being quietly corrected - hence the reason why his horses are starting to look anxious and rather than working willingly are working because they're bullied and afraid not too. That attitude might be fine as long as they have a very dominant rider like he is but as soon as they realise they're being ridden by a novice rider that wants more of a partnership based on mutual respect the shine starts to tarnish very quickly
> If someone want to produce a reining horse then the Titan series might work for them but it would destroy an English horse and if he wants to have a bigger global following like PP and Monty R he can't afford to be so limited in his methods


Yes, yes, and yes. Since the start of the Titan videos I have been disgusted. That poor horse is three. THREE. He is ruined. He is behind the vertical (which I know from experience is pretty much impossible to fix), he looks terrified of his rider, and he looks like he is constantly anticipating being slammed in reverse at any moment. 



Foxhunter said:


> I think that a person can get burned out. He goes from place to place, has horses come to him from all over. People who are having problems, many of them serious. People who have bought his videos watched them and still have no idea of the timing or the energy to put it into practise.
> 
> What he said is so very truthful. To many people, especially women think that being nice and loving gets a kind and wonderful horse. The fact that their horse walks all over them means nothing to them, they just cannot see it as ill mannered, through their blinkers they see a horse that loves them and wants to be close to them.
> 
> For me he was not refering to all true horse women, he knows that there are many women who can and do train horses with a direct no nonsense approach that can and do train stud horses.
> 
> As many trainers say "It isn't training the animal, it is training the human that counts."


If he is burned out, then he needs to step back, do some soul searching, take some time for himself. Not post a bigotted rant on the internet. Anybody can get burned out, I get that, that is why horses will never be more than a hobby for me. Even then sometimes I feel burnt out. My mare has a metabolic disease, and part of managing it is keeping her moving and in regular work. That means riding her 5-6 days a week. Sometimes I would love to just take a break for a few days, but I can't because that would be detrimental to her. But I don't go on the internet and make a crazy rant that singles out a certain group of people and say they deserve to die. 



jaydee said:


> It doesn't matter who he's referring too, he needs to zip it.


Yes.


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## Smilie

There is a reason many new to horses, when they ask about trainers, seem to limit that discussion to NH trainers, as those are the ones in the business of selling training techniques to those more new to horses.
Those in the horse industry,long enough, are aware of traditional trainers, who are more into training horses, then training people to train horses, thus use that resource instead.
I mean, if I was wanting to ride a reiner again, I would be reading stuff by those reiners that have shown successfully at NRHA, like bOb Loomas, Craig Johnson, Shawn Flarida, ect


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## KigerQueen

yeah he seamed exceptionally "on one" the last vid. i have been watching his titan series and i do not like the over flexion at all but it was interesting to watch. that rant though. i mean i hate when people give me their unsolicited opinion when it comes to training my horses ( like smacking and getting after a horse who tried to run me over) but i dont snap like that for the world to see.


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## BreezylBeezyl

> What he said is so very truthful. To many people, especially women think that being nice and loving gets a kind and wonderful horse. The fact that their horse walks all over them means nothing to them, they just cannot see it as ill mannered, through their blinkers they see a horse that loves them and wants to be close to them.
> 
> For me he was not refering to all true horse women, he knows that there are many women who can and do train horses with a direct no nonsense approach that can and do train stud horses.


I have to agree with Foxhunter.

Look. Women have a bad rep in the horse industry because many of them started out horse crazy and decided to jump into this game without knowing how to play. I know I did, and I made a fool of myself on more than several occasions. You cannot deny that many beginners have an over-romanticized idea of how horse ownership is going to be. They don't even have an inkling of how the animal's brain works or how to give a horse the discipline it requires to be a safe animal for those around it.

Let's remember that this is an industry dominated primarily by women - no one can deny this. No one. If I had to guess, ninety percent of all beginner horsemen are actually women in their twenties or thirties with no horse experience whatsoever attempting to make their life-long childhood dreams of owning a pony come true.

I've watched all of his videos on Titan, and I had to go back and re-watch the one you are all up in such a fuss about. I went in expecting to be offended by something I'd clearly missed, but I wasn't. Yes he's generalizing, but that's all he's doing. Heck, I'm a woman and I certainly did not feel offended -- because the women is he referring to in those comments does not apply to me! I also think that some people are looking too deeply into this. The statements he's making about bitless riding etc, is specifically for those who outside slam traditional horse training in favor of "training with love". I highly doubt Clinton would ever put down any respectable horseman/woman with good horse sense who wants to ride bitless. Just a hunch. 

His first statement before making that comment is how he "could be more politically correct" about it, but that he wasn't going to be. Clinton is not a politically correct person, he doesn't worry about what you think of him, and he doesn't waste time trying to ensure he doesn't offend anyone. He just tells is like it is. It's a big reason why I said earlier, "You either love him or you hate him". I personally am not PC at all, and I appreciate how blunt he is, so you can guess which side of the fence I'm on.


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## Roman

An arrogant jerk. His last video just appalled me. Someone who claims to he a professional but acts like a 13 year old boy. Constantly jerking and spurring, making his horses go BTV. Honestly, he's in it just for the money. 

And he wished death on people. Seriously? How could anyone be okay with that. Disgusting!


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## tinyliny

Roman said:


> An arrogant jerk. His last video just appalled me. Someone who claims to he a professional but acts like a 13 year old boy. Constantly jerking and spurring, making his horses go BTV. Honestly, he's in it just for the money.
> 
> *And he wished death on people. *Seriously? How could anyone be okay with that. Disgusting!



that^. wishing death on people so that they are out of the gene pool, or out of his audience, is over the line. the rest, I rather liked it. it was amusing, and I can understand his perspective, and all. I am sure it IS very frustrating for him. I'm ONE of those women who stacks mounting blocks to get my fat *** on. (I dont' stack 'em, but I need a tall one to start with). but, that's cool, becuase Clinton and my paths will never cross. and I haven't trained a stud, so would not presume to know how it's done.

He's allowed an opinion. I can respect the courage to say what he really thinks, even if it is ugly.

what I cannot abide is watching him handle that horse. not the so called knocking the bejesus out of him, but the constant pulling and tugging and creating a horse that is heavy on the forehand, with probably a very sore neck, and a fear of any kind of contact.

if THAT is what is required to train a reining horse, then I'd have to consign reining up there with Big Lick riding as a discipline I would never want to support in any way , shape or form.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

You can take him or leave him I suppose, but I’ll share a bit of a learning experience I had several years back. 

At one point I considered becoming an EMT as a second career. So naturally I spoke with a friend of mine who was in the business. He talked me out of it. Here is what he told me. Warning. It was brutal honesty.

“No, you don’t want to do that. Being an EMT, you deal every day with the ugliest of life and it changes you: The lady who is getting routinely beat up by her husband and refuses to press charges. The druggie who OD’s or gets some bad stuff once a month. The drunk who stabs his neighbor over a comment about a football team. The toddler who drowned in his grandparent’s swimming pool. The baby that got left in a car in the middle of summer.

“It eats at you, day in and day out and it follows you to bed at night, so to stay sane, you have to harden yourself against it and you stop seeing people the way you used to. They become a “case”, instead of a person. You just patch them up as best you can and send them off, knowing you’ll be right back at the same place again in the near future and it can’t be your concern because you are helpless to prevent it. You eventually lose the humanity in it. They stop being people and start being a job. Then they start to disgust you in their ignorance and stupidity, you just want to shake some common sense into them, but you can't.” 

I think this is what has happened to Clinton Anderson with both people and horses. He needs to take a step back.


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## Golden Horse

BreezylBeezyl said:


> did, and I made a fool of myself on more than several occasions. You cannot deny that many beginners have an over-romanticized idea of how horse ownership is going to be. They don't even have an inkling of how the animal's brain works or how to give a horse the discipline it requires to be a safe animal for those around it.


That much is certainly true, but a big name trainer saying something like this



> *Now the women who are watching this, you know, I make fun of these tree-hugging idiots that ride in a bitless bridle, and you know, they trail ride, and and, they’re close to nature. They hear what I just said and they say “that’s barbaric”, they’ve never trained a stud horse in their friggin’ life.*
> *And I wish they would, cause they’d get killed and that would get rid of most of these people who bug the **** out of me*. Okay? So they’ve never trained a stud horse in their life. They’ve never trained one. Their, their whole idea of accomplishment is the horse stands still at the mounting block. Like “oh my god, he stood still so I get three mounting blocks, one on top of the other and climb up with my fat *** up there and get on.”



That is just out of line, out of order, and plain wrong. I didn't have much of an opinion for or against the man before this, but now I do, and he sucks.

The vast majority of riders are 'probably' (I have no figures) women who just want to go trail ride, have no want or reason to ride or train a stud, just want a nice reliable partner they can enjoy, and there is NOTHING, NOTHING wrong with that.


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## Smilie

see, I never even was aware of any stance that he had against women, as I really don't watch or follow him'
He did have some videos that would help a person not that experienced with horses, avoid getting into awreak
Before everyone gets bent way out of shape, watching CA, just remember that there NH trainers really put themselves out there, open for public opinion.
I know for a fact, that there are many, many traditional trainers far worse, who never get that attention, as they are only in the lime light in a limited way, where you learn by trial and error to avoid them
I took once such reining trainer, to the local college board, where he taught horsemanship. I think I told the story before, of how I joined his colt starting clinic, after I had my two year old going well, but needed ground to start her loping, as it was winter. How he insisted on throwing her, just because she had difficulty picking up one lead, and kicked out a bit, when he got on , and thumped her with his number 11 boots
I was so intimidated by any professional trainer at that time, that I just tried to talk him out of throwing her, that following day, by stating I had my show saddle on, and she was only atwo year old.
He instead, said it would not hurt my show saddle, so not wishing to make a scene, in front of all those other riders, I allowed him to do so. \
It wound up in a wreak, with my horse going down, finally, after running in a panic from one side of the short side of the arena to the other first, almost catching my then 10 year old son and his horse, in that mess
He had also used a hard lariet. I now realize he just wanted to show how to throw a horse, and mine was the victim, as she was going better then any of the horses in his colt starting clinic, who were still just working in oen end of that arena, while I rode my horse around that entire area, and had ridden her out in the open had home
Long a story short, when she went down, he sat on her, as she lay there trembling, saying 'this horse needs more of this1
When she got up, she was three legged lame, having cut one rear foot into the tendon
Even then, I might have forgiven him, had he told me he made a terrible mistake-Nope! This phoney 7 day adventist, this started to swear, saying this horse should be meated, and it was all the fault of the horse.
At this point, i suddenly 'grew up', professional trainers are not GOds, and decided such a person should not be teaching at the local college.
I thus took him before the college board, and all at once I had hoards of [people, coming out of the woodwork, giving me that pat on the back, relating stories as how he had ruined horses of theirs
This situation is not unique, and there are many, many trainers not in the lime light, that use anything to win, and whose methods remain partly hidden, as they don't film how they train, back in their barn.
Many of these trainers continue to win, their methods in doing so, remaining more or less\secret'
There can be rules on how a horse is shown, warmed up in that warm up ring, BUT what goes on in that training barn, often remains known only to a few select people/clients, that turn a blind eye, long as that trainer produces results


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## KigerQueen

i dont take such offence to it. i have delt with the type of people he is talking about. the people who tell me i was abusing my mare by using a bit. tried the whole bitless thing and nearly got killed. my horse is not well trained because i am not a trainer, but i did not care because i could hop on her and trail ride in my "evil" bit. i have been told that my 5'4" of myself is too big for my 14.2hh Arab and that i was cruel to ride her by someone who was riding a 15hh horse and weighed 2x more than me. as a whole i dislike most horse people in person. here is different because if i dont want to deal with it i dont lol. here i have people calling me crule for my slow feeders or soaked pellets and are feeding my mare hay behind my back (who chokes on hay so is on a mush only diet along with the 31 year old tb). i can see him snapping. the hyper flexion is not something i like. my mare is light but i would never ask her to MOVE and flex like that. 

he can be a pompous **** but i dont think he cares. he has made his money and has a blind fallowing. i like his ground work to an extent. i can use it without making my mare fearful but not my paint so i use more classical methods.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Smilie said:


> At this point, i suddenly 'grew up', professional trainers are not GOds, and decided such a person should not be teaching at the local college.


No, professional trainers both well-known and not so well known are not gods, though more than a few think they are and demand to be respected as such. 

Same could be said for show competitors, veterinarians, wranglers and even the big fish at the little barn.

Human egos get in the way of good horsemanship quite often.


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## Smilie

I do know, having trained and show stallions, that it is not the same as training a gelding or a mare, that you have to have that !00% respect, inspite of hormones, and other people doing stupid stuff on their mares-any wreak, remains the fault of the person riding that stallion, even if some kid rides his in heat mare,s butt up that studs' nose.
Even mares become too much for many people to insist on good behavior,without drugs, when in heat, so imagine a stallion, always under the influence of hormones.
Training young stallions, at home, with mares running in the pasture, made me very aware of never letting a horse you are working with, have his attention drift to those othre horses-just annoying maybe, on a gelding or mare, and down right a receipt for a wreak, on a stud
Try showing a stallion, the next day, in a mixed sex cl;***, after you hand bred a mare to him the night before, and then you will realize the respect it takes, to have that stallion ignor those hormones!
I d haven't read any of the stuff that is aluded to, far as women and stallions, but I can assure those here, if they have never trained and shown a stallion, versus just riding one, already very well mannered by a pro, they really don't understand what it takes
For this very reason, Cavailia uses no mares-just geldings and some stallions
nOt saying all his methods are right, many are dummied down, to help that inexperienced horse person to work with his horse and avoid getting hurt, the type of person who does not have the luxury of working with a trainer, having that trainer start and maintain their horse for them, but are forced to try and do it on their own


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## jaydee

He's old enough and supposed to be a professional in the business so if he doesn't like what some people say about him he needs to just let it wash over and not over react like that
Being fat doesn't make you a bad rider or a bad horse person, hugging trees doesn't mean you're going to be useless around horses, riding bareback and bridleless doesn't mean you treat your horse like a poodle, needing a mounting block isn't a sin.
As for 'stud horses' needing a hard aggressive hand - well that's rubbish, its the fastest way to turn a stallion defensive and mean. I've been fortunate to have spent time around some great 'stallion' men and women and they knew that each stallion was different and so needed a different approach but the most important things are to always be clear, firm, consistent and fair. 
I actually find that mares that are hormonal are more difficult than stallions because they change form one day to the next whereas with a stallion what you see is always going to be what you get - and I've spent a lot of time around a lot of very different stallions so speaking from experience
Maybe CA needs to get back to his core audience - novice owners that need help with training problems - instead of trying to prove how great he is with studs which the majority of people don't own or even want to own?


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## COWCHICK77

Most of you know how I feel about good 'ol Clinton so I won't bore you with my diatribe yet again.
I will comment on the video that supposedly sparked controversy. It made me laugh in all honesty. I do believe he's burnt out and I would be too. I think that he'd like to switch gears a bit and be training and riding reiners instead of teaching new horse owners with the Black Stallion syndrome how not to die. Unfortunately he never was good enough to make it as a reining trainer and was fired from a couple of trainers before he got into the NH scene. He is a better people trainer than horse trainer and I believe he admits that as well which I'll give him credit for.

Anyhow, I can't stand the overflexing but I do agree with the fact that you get after them then leave them alone no matter the sex of the horse.


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## Smilie

jaydee said:


> He's old enough and supposed to be a professional in the business so if he doesn't like what some people say about him he needs to just let it wash over and not over react like that
> Being fat doesn't make you a bad rider or a bad horse person, hugging trees doesn't mean you're going to be useless around horses, riding bareback and bridleless doesn't mean you treat your horse like a poodle, needing a mounting block isn't a sin.
> As for 'stud horses' needing a hard aggressive hand - well that's rubbish, its the fastest way to turn a stallion defensive and mean. I've been fortunate to have spent time around some great 'stallion' men and women and they knew that each stallion was different and so needed a different approach but the most important things are to always be clear, firm, consistent and fair.
> I actually find that mares that are hormonal are more difficult than stallions because they change form one day to the next whereas with a stallion what you see is always going to be what you get - and I've spent a lot of time around a lot of very different stallions so speaking from experience
> Maybe CA needs to get back to his core audience - novice owners that need help with training problems - instead of trying to prove how great he is with studs which the majority of people don't own or even want to own?


Good post, Cowchick!
Look, , I never said a stallion needs harsh treatment,and you certainly don't pick on one, but one does have to make sure boundaries are black and white, and I think many people that follow CA,trying to train their horses themselves, at more that entry level, far as horsemanship learning curve, get hurt, have horsse spoiled by not being firm leaders, then they ever are by using harsh techniques, and thus derive SOME benifit from CA and others that target this segment
Just read some posts, where clear leadership is missing, and those posting are getting into a dangerous situation, by NOT being a clear enough leader
Cowchick has nailed where CA is at in the reining world. he IS targeting entry level people, even if he is trying to be a reiner, because I can assure you that I know not ONE working cowhorse or reining trainer or serious competitor that would even give him a minute, far as any reining advise/technique
I no longer compete in those events, but still have many friends that do, so have not lost touch with the reining world.
In fact, just received two more breeder medallions for a horse we bred, that earned two more ApHC national and World titles in those events
I have not just been around a lot of stallions, some that behave like geldings, BECAUSE they were first trained by some pro, but have also raised them, trained them and shown them
There is a reason that professionals mainly train stallions, and why people get in wreak with mares at times.
Mares act like geldings when not in heat, so many entry level people are not ready to deal with a mare, when she is under the influence of hormones, and most stallions are trained by professionals, and that creates a horse that is mannered to ignor his hormonal drive when handled or ridden.
Such a stallion can then be ridden by amateurs and youth.
THat does not mean you use harsh methods to train a stallion, but you do have to make sure those boundaries are clearer, as with a gelding
or even a mare.
How many posts are there where if a gelding acts up, he is immediately declared to being proud cut , or a mare to be in heat, when she acts up?
Most times, what is missing, is clear boundaries and respect, but one only needs to be as firm with a horse as needed
Some stallions are very easy to train, never very studdy, while some not so much, and there have been some stallions, with great genetics for racing and other events, that were gelded, because they just could not focus on their job,w hen intact
I have not even watched any more videos by CA then those first two on Titan,and that one trail riding one, as , since I don't follow him, I really don't get into a tizzy watching his videos , as they don'y affect me.
Why so many here that don't follow him, seem so familiar with his videos and life, is a mystery to me!


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## Mulefeather

Smilie said:


> Why so many here that don't follow him, seem so familiar with his videos and life, is a mystery to me!


I try to watch and learn from a variety of trainers and see different problems from different viewpoints, but I would not say I follow any particular one. . 

"Following" a clinician, in my mind, means that you use their methodology exclusively or nearly so, and also may be a member of that particular person's "fan club", so to speak. 

The reason many people are unhappy with him is that he's turning around and publicly biting the very hands that have made his money for him. I see a lot of people who love that brash, somewhat churlish and brutally honest view, but rarely do people like that same approach when it's directed towards them. 

So at best, people have been mauled by the monster they created- the one they loved when all that bitter nastiness is directed towards someone else. The one whose behavior they encouraged by giving him money and fame. At worst, we're seeing a public meltdown from someone who is on the verge of losing his sponsorship and a lot of money on top of having lost fans and his marriage, because the attributes that made him a successful businessman have conversely turned him into a terrible, miserable person.


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## COWCHICK77

Mulefeather said:


> I try to watch and learn from a variety of trainers and see different problems from different viewpoints, but I would not say I follow any particular one. .
> 
> "Following" a clinician, in my mind, means that you use their methodology exclusively or nearly so, and also may be a member of that particular person's "fan club", so to speak.
> 
> The reason many people are unhappy with him is that he's turning around and publicly biting the very hands that have made his money for him. I see a lot of people who love that brash, somewhat churlish and brutally honest view, but rarely do people like that same approach when it's directed towards them.
> 
> So at best, people have been mauled by the monster they created- the one they loved when all that bitter nastiness is directed towards someone else. The one whose behavior they encouraged by giving him money and fame. At worst, we're seeing a public meltdown from someone who is on the verge of losing his sponsorship and a lot of money on top of having lost fans and his marriage, because the attributes that made him a successful businessman have conversely turned him into a terrible, miserable person.


Honestly I think he's trying to cull the herd, sort of speak.
I bet he's wanting to target a different crowd, do I dare say, higher level than what he's being dealing with. One of the reasons Buck Branamann is so popular with his following is the cut and dry, no nonsense way of teaching. I think Clinton is trying to get in on that although I think he is going to be equally disappointed. Frankly dealing with the public sucks no matter what profession you're in but especially so when it comes to horses.


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## hjalc

KigerQueen said:


> i LIKE the methods (and so dose my arab). i feel that Clinton can be a bit of a jerk but at the same time he deals with stupid people ALOT and i get that way myself after a long day in retail. I do NOT like the "trainers" who copy or teach his method and beat the snot out of the horse. i shy away from most c/a people because they fallow him like a cult at times and god forbit i use a difrent methods for something instead of 100% his method.
> 
> i do particularly enjoy his series on titan. nice to see even one of his horses being a bit of a snot. and i see him correct thing that alot of people would let slide and cause more issues down the line (with a stud at least)


I personally dislike Clinton Anderson because I believe some of his training methods are harsh like for example I saw a video of him holding down a foal while putting many items near it's face and ears such as a clipper that was on.


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## COWCHICK77

hjalc said:


> I personally dislike Clinton Anderson because I believe some of his training methods are harsh like for example I saw a video of him holding down a foal while putting many items near it's face and ears such as a clipper that was on.


Could you post a link to the video mentioned? I'd like to see it.


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## Smilie

hjalc said:


> I personally dislike Clinton Anderson because I believe some of his training methods are harsh like for example I saw a video of him holding down a foal while putting many items near it's face and ears such as a clipper that was on.


Well, that stupid imprinting, CA can't take credit for inventing!
It was actually first used by Dr Miller, a vet-check out his book on foal imprinting
It has since been de bunked
CowChick is doing exactly what Dr Miller , a vet laid out,in his book on foal imprinting, something I never agreed with, and which research has proven actually harmful
Here is where ca got it from

http://store.robertmmiller.com/boimtr.html


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## COWCHICK77

Smilie said:


> Well, that stupid imprinting, CA can't take credit for inventing!
> It was actually first used by Dr Miller, a vet-check out his book on foal imprinting
> It has since been de bunked


Yep.
I think Miller had a theory but unfortunately it was taken to a whole new level of stupid that made a lot of pushy disrespectful colts. But that could be said about any training practice not used properly.
With that said, and I've said this many times, I dare anyone to walk out in my pasture and tell me the difference between the horses that were handled PROPERLY from birth and the ones that were untouched until they were two+ years old, roped and halter broke and started PROPERLY. I bet most could not tell me which horses were which.


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## Smilie

Dr Miller questioned:
Imprinting Foals | TheHorse.com

There are several videos of people using Dr Miller's imprinting, so CAis just one of those who followed advise of avet, of all things!


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## Smilie

COWCHICK77 said:


> Yep.
> I think Miller had a theory but unfortunately it was taken to a whole new level of stupid that made a lot of pushy disrespectful colts. But that could be said about any training practice not used properly.
> With that said, and I've said this many times, I dare anyone to walk out in my pasture and tell me the difference between the horses that were handled PROPERLY from birth and the ones that were untouched until they were two+ years old, roped and halter broke and started PROPERLY. I bet most could not tell me which horses were which.


You are correct, far as it not really mattering when ahorse is handled. I used to handle my foals early, because I used to show them in foal futurities.

When I quit showing horses until they were ready to ride, I did not halter break or handle my foals until they were weaned, at age about 6 to 9 months
I did de worm and trim their feet, but just by tying the mare in a stall, and having baby against her,so I could do those things, You can restrain a foal,, without force, before it is halter broke, done correctly 
Also bought some PMU babies that had never been handled, when they were weaned. Made no difference, as you noted, far as the how that horse turned out
I have that imprinting book actually,as it was given to me. He does so all those invasive things, which, as avet, maybe he got away with, but many of his followers have done more harm than good, using that extreme imprinting, during a time the foal needs to bond with it's dam


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## Roman

Just curious, because I did find the video of Clinton Anderson talking about foal imprinting, but I noticed they were holding the face down as they did everything. At one point, I noticed the foal wanted to get away from whatever they were doing but he was held down. I personally don't think the foal should be held down. Your opinions? I've obviously never imprinted a foal so I don't know.


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## Hellcat

I like him. He said what he wanted to say. Maybe not the exact words I would use... I would never wish death on a rider ever... but I understand his frustration.

I will say I think he has his 3 yo stud colt terribly overbridled. I dont ride reiners but I like a young horse .. or any horse... who isnt afraid to go into the bridle when they need your help balancing. I think jerking that colt off the bridle so much is silly... he needs the support in those stop imo.


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## Smilie

Roman said:


> Just curious, because I did find the video of Clinton Anderson talking about foal imprinting, but I noticed they were holding the face down as they did everything. At one point, I noticed the foal wanted to get away from whatever they were doing but he was held down. I personally don't think the foal should be held down. Your opinions? I've obviously never imprinted a foal so I don't know.


 See above posts.
That imprinting technique was invented by Dr Robert Miller, and CA plus many other people adopted it.
Studies since then have found this extreme imprinting, interfering with that mare foal bonding, trying to subject that foal to all things possible, almost immediately after he is born, harmful.
No, it should not be done, but CA is not guilty of having invented that technique, but rather a vet.
I lost all credibility of Dr Miller, after that imprinting book of his came out!

Good that you never imprinted a foal, as it should not be done, JMO!


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## Smilie

Imprinting de -bunked

Keith Hunt - Wrangling on the Range - Page Seventy- three

Here is where it came from.I have pasted first paragraph, and you cna read the rest:

Foal Imprinting
ImprintTraining.inddBy Maddy Butcher

It’s scary how bad science begets bad practice with a bit of marketing and use of the title ‘Veterinarian.’

That’s what Dr. Robert Miller has done with “Imprint Training” a technique popularized by his book (published by Western Horseman). Miller piggybacked on the work of Konrad Lorenz, who played Father Goose by imprinting goslings. Lorenz wrote “King Solomon’s Ring” back in the 1950s, spouting the kind of “scientific observation” that today is dismissed as anthropomorphic and unethical.


Foal Imprinting | Best Horse Practices


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Smilie said:


> There are several videos of people using Dr Miller's imprinting, so CAis just one of those who followed advise of avet, of all things!


That’s kind of the problem isn’t it? People seeing what someone else is doing and because the person has a doctoral degree, a position of power, a position of influence, some modicum of success……people automatically disengage their own brains, set aside their own gut feeling and follow leads without further thought, question or redress.

There are people who do the wrong thing in all walks of life and because they have a degree or are well known or successful, does not automatically make them worthy of following their lead.

Engage your own brain, think for yourselves and make your own decisions; The human condition is at its best when everyone is thinking through a solution to a problem and using their own minds instead of someone else's.


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## QHDragon

Smilie said:


> Well, that stupid imprinting, CA can't take credit for inventing!
> It was actually first used by Dr Miller, a vet-check out his book on foal imprinting
> It has since been de bunked
> CowChick is doing exactly what Dr Miller , a vet laid out,in his book on foal imprinting, something I never agreed with, and which research has proven actually harmful
> Here is where ca got it from
> 
> IMPRINT TRAINING - Of The Newborn Foal, 2nd Edition - * Buy Books


Why would anybody think that that is a good idea to do to a baby?!


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## COWCHICK77

Smilie said:


> Imprinting de -bunked
> 
> Keith Hunt - Wrangling on the Range - Page Seventy- three
> 
> Here is where it came from.I have pasted first paragraph, and you cna read the rest:
> 
> Foal Imprinting
> ImprintTraining.inddBy Maddy Butcher
> 
> *It’s scary how bad science begets bad practice with a bit of marketing and use of the title ‘Veterinarian.’*
> 
> That’s what Dr. Robert Miller has done with “Imprint Training” a technique popularized by his book (published by Western Horseman). Miller piggybacked on the work of Konrad Lorenz, who played Father Goose by imprinting goslings. Lorenz wrote “King Solomon’s Ring” back in the 1950s, spouting the kind of “scientific observation” that today is dismissed as anthropomorphic and unethical.
> 
> 
> Foal Imprinting | Best Horse Practices


To the bolded, I agree with this and with what reiningcatsanddogs posted.
In my opinion, Dr. Deb Bennett is another who gets more credibility than deserved due to her title.


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## Foxhunter

When I heard about imprinting I thought it a bad idea and never attempted it on any of the foals we bred (which were many) 

The one thing I did do when the foal was under 24 hours old was to either lift it and carry it a few steps or, contain it in my arms so it couldn't get away. This was something I was told by a couple of stud hands, that it imprinted on the foal that I was stronger than them. 

I never had any problem with clipping anything we bred or the farrier shoeing them, they just accepted it was part of life.


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## KigerQueen

agreed. there is only so far i will go with his methods.


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## Change

I have spent most of my life working with engineers - many of whom, while brilliant in their discipline, are terrible in their people skills. I joined the military when only 5% of the military were women. Publically Correct (PC) hadn't been coined. Sexual harassment as a no-no came along sometime after that. 

I've also trained a few horses of my own, including a few stallions. I am by no means an expert nor am I a novice. I've never trained a top show prospect, but then, I never really wanted to, either.

All that said, I've learned it is more productive, for me, to pay much more attention to what a person does and/or how a person does things rather than what a person says. It is extremely hard for me to take offense at generalized comments. By that same token, I've also found that what works for one person, or on one horse, doesn't work on another. I watch, I listen, I take what I find useful and I pretty much ignore the rest.

There are some things CA does that are no different than what I was doing 30 or more years ago, and they work. There are things he does that I never thought of before and they may work on this horse, but not that one. There are things he does that I would never consider trying. 

I may not agree with all he says or how he says it, nor with what or how he does it, but I'm also not going to be a 'hater' because I don't like the way he says it.


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## jaydee

Smilie said:


> Look, , I never said a stallion needs harsh treatment


I don't recall saying that you did. My post didn't quote anything you said and I didn't mention you in it. I was under the impression that we were discussing the teaching and training methods of CA not yours. 


Imprinting is just the same as the whole obsession with desensitizing horses - both took a huge step forward from 'getting horses used to stuff and turned them into a lot more than they need to be
I've only ever had experience of foals bred for competition - in the UK the sort of breeding where youngstock are left feral until they get rounded up for breaking or slaughter mainly only exists in the lower end of the market
Our foals were handled from birth in as much as they were given their routine shots, checked over daily, taught to lead, if they were shown they were bathed and groomed and they got used to having their feet handled and even their mouths looked into so by the time they were ready to be sat on they just accepted it as another step in their training.
None of those things should be done forcefully if done gradually and correctly but a foal that's used to seeing humans around and being handled by them has no fear of them so its important that they're always treated like horses and not like badly managed puppies
We bought a lot of untouched 'feral' ponies and a few horses because they were something you could sell on cheaply and make a profit on for the non competitive market - they were definitely not as easy or as fast to start under saddle as a youngster handled from birth but correctly trained the end result isn't any different
I don't know if the intensive sort of imprinting makes any difference to the mare/foal bond because I've never done it, basic handling of a foal from birth seems to have no effect at all on that bond
I suppose they consider the foal/human bond as being more important as long as the mare doesn't abandon the foal because the pair will be split up anyway by the time they're anything from 4 months old to 9 months old average


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## Greenmeadows

Wow! This thread sure has a lot of replies, thank you everyone! :runninghorse2: 

I do not have a ton of experience, at least nothing like some of you have. I watched a lot of CA because that is who was recommended when I was starting out, but not very much now. Does anyone have a recommendation for other trainers that have decent videos? I love learning as much as possible. Thanks again!


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## BreezylBeezyl

Greenmeadows said:


> Wow! This thread sure has a lot of replies, thank you everyone! :runninghorse2:
> 
> I do not have a ton of experience, at least nothing like some of you have. I watched a lot of CA because that is who was recommended when I was starting out, but not very much now. Does anyone have a recommendation for other trainers that have decent videos? I love learning as much as possible. Thanks again!


I enjoy Warwick Schiller and the YouTube channel YourRidingSuccess (Natasha Althoff). Natasha is great if you're a competitive English rider looking to get the most out of your performance horses, I find her lessons very helpful. I don't ride dressage but since all disciplines are (supposed to be!) based off the dressage training principles, a lot of what she has to say echos for other disciplines.


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## jaydee

Greenmeadows said:


> Wow! This thread sure has a lot of replies, thank you everyone! :runninghorse2:
> 
> I do not have a ton of experience, at least nothing like some of you have. I watched a lot of CA because that is who was recommended when I was starting out, but not very much now. Does anyone have a recommendation for other trainers that have decent videos? I love learning as much as possible. Thanks again!


*Moderating*
Your request for advice on other trainers that have videos would be better off in a new thread as its going to sidetrack this one too much and cause confusion


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## Joel Reiter

Greenmeadows said:


> I do not have a ton of experience, at least nothing like some of you have. Does anyone have a recommendation for other trainers that have decent videos?


Almost all the trainers have decent videos. The Stacy Westfall DVD that you can get free with a tag from a Weaver Leather product is an excellent DVD. Carson James will send you all kinds of "free" or one dollar DVDs, and he is quite interesting. Almost everybody has free stuff on YouTube.

But in spite of my feeling that Clinton Anderson is losing it, dollar for dollar there is nothing out there to compare with his Fundamentals kit or Colt Starting series. They represent the third generation of his video series, and they are the most comprehensive, the most professionally produced, the most clearly explained, and on a dollar per minute basis, quite competitively priced.


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## Foxtail Ranch

Hi OP,

I have not read the whole thread, and know very little about CA's foal imprinting advice, so at the risk of sounding redundant or worse, I will add my two cents.

I started riding ponies when I was 6, just jumping on the neighbor's overweight POA named Pinky. I was being raised by a single mom from Boston, who knew nothing about equines, so I was on my own. I rode ponies, then horses, and trained my first horse. I sold him when I was in high school before I left for college. I still dream about that horse, as he was my best friend.

I got horses again when my youngest child left for college. I was ready financially and with time commitment. That was in 2010. I got my mare in August, and she was a castoff from my sister in law: resistant to loading, saddling, bridling, tying; kicking out, crow hopping, hot, dangerous by the time I got her. Sister had contributed to alot of this, in my opinion, so I thought I could work through it.

Then I was in a bad motorcycle accident 5 weeks later. She was not handled for 4 months.

When I came back to work with her, I was using a walker or cane and was not supposed to ride, especially a handful like her.

I turned to CA for help in working with her safely. I used his books and website often, and worked my horse through the steps. I didn't agree with everything he said, but I found him very helpful, especially for SAFETY. A lot of what I would have done with her would have put me at risk and I needed to protect my healing bones (hip, femur, tibia, fibula, ankle, tarsals, metatarsals). 

For example, when I began to ride again, she would kick out and crow hop. My balance and muscle strength just wasn't there to ride it out (the way I would have done, pre-accident.) CA said it was okay to dismount and "lunge for respect," then remount and ride again. Almost every horse person I know and spoke to said "NO! Dismounting in the moment of misbehavior is teaching her to continue or worsen her behavior." I, however, found this worked for my mare. 

Another example of this was a friend's horse would refuse to go forward on the trail. No amount of punishment in the saddle would move him. First, I rode him and would dismount, lunge for respect, then remount him. After about 3 tries, he finally gave up on being a statue! My friend learned the technique and it completely extinguished the behavior.

So, I have a great debt to CA and respect him very much.

That said, I also realized that I needed other sources of advice because there are many different horses and problems out there. One great resource I used for about two years is Giddyup Flix.  For $10 a month, I got access to a vast library of videos. I learned all kinds of cool stuff, and was introduced to amazing people and philosophies about equine care and training. Just talking about it makes me want to join again.

For example: 

Cherry Hill: tie a toy to a string and put it around your neck every time you turn the water on at the barn so it reminds you to turn it off, and many other tips for health and care of equines. Can't say enough good stuff about Cherry Hill. 

Shawna Karrish: She is a member of this forum, and trains Beezy Madden's horses. I learned how to train my gelding to play fetch for fun, including picking up my hat when it fell off during a trail ride. 

GiddyUp Flix lets you view a video for as long as you like. When you are done, send it back and order something else. It is a treasure trove for a thirsty learner!


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## Greenmeadows

jaydee said:


> *Moderating*
> Your request for advice on other trainers that have videos would be better off in a new thread as its going to sidetrack this one too much and cause confusion


Sorry! I did not think about that. I will start a new thread.


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## Remali

CA. Not a trainer in my opinion, methods are too harsh. And, well, he's just basically, a jerk. Just my two cents.


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## Remali

And... FWIW.... CA maybe needs to get out more and watch some _real_ trainers (other than himself). A LOT of the trainers are women, who own and show stallions, and they do very, very well.


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## rbranch

Alright, I couldn't resist putting my opinion in on Clinton Anderson. I like him for many reasons, the first is that his methods WORK. They gain respect and gain it quickly, I have seen amazing results with my gelding. Secondly, he is very clear and precise in his teaching so I think anyone would be able to understand his methods. For those of you saying he's too "harsh" I would have to 100% disagree, I find that his methods always allow the chance for the horse to do what is asked right, and if they don't he asks the horse more strongly, and every time that the correct maneuver is preformed the pressure is released, so to me, that is not harsh at all and actually much more effective then not disciplining your horse.


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## rbranch

Remali said:


> CA. Not a trainer in my opinion, methods are too harsh. And, well, he's just basically, a jerk. Just my two cents.


So if I may ask, what about his methods do you think are too harsh?


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## 91cowgirl

I like his method. I used it on both my current horses. One that was extremely aggressive, and one that was and still is very reactive and sensitive. 
Just like with all training methods, the person has to know how to read horses. They have to know when to back off and when to apply more pressure.
My mare was the 4 y/o leader of a bunch of weenlings. She had no manners when I got her. She bit, kicked and tried running me over multiple times. Using CAs method changed her in a short time. I had to be about as harsh with her as Clinton is with his horse. My kids can now easily handle her.
My husbands mare is very reactive and sensitive. I fully believe she was abused before we got her. I used the same training method on her as my other mare, but I was quieter and softer. I couldn't put as much pressure on her as my other mare and I had to be quicker with releasing pressure.
I like his method because it's easier for me to understand. (And I like his accent.:wink


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## Smilie

If you are in any particular discipline, then those are the trainers you should assess-the ones that have proven themselves in those disciplines, training horses and NOT people to train horses!
Far as private life, opinions,ect, if you delve deep into many trainers, you might not like all the details, so all that is extraneous, JMO
He serves a purpose, and that is teaching basic methods of horse handling that help keep people more new to horses, safe.
Not everyone had a chance of growing up with horses, thus knowing how to read horses, how to judge when a horse is respectful or not, when he is starting to test a person,ect
I thus think he benefits this segment of the population esp, way more than people like Linda tellington Jones, and a host of other 'touchy/feely types
It is unfortunate that he puts any person bias out there, as most people dealing with the public, keep those aspects to themselves
But, you know, I rather have anyone put those things out there, honestly, then say them behind your back, as they continue to accept that cheque.
Ever here some trainers speak about a client, in none to flattering terms, call their horse basically a nag, but , that owner, keep stringing him along, and thus keeps those cheques rolling!
i'm not a CA follower, but have been in the horse business long enough, to know what CA expresses openly is not unusual.
He also did NOT invent imprinting-many besides him followed dr Miller down that path1


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## COWCHICK77

Remali said:


> CA. Not a trainer in my opinion, methods are too harsh. And, well, he's just basically, a jerk. Just my two cents.


I too would like to know what you consider harsh?
He is what I call "loud" but I haven't seen truly harsh.



I agree with Smilie, not all trainers no matter the discipline they train in are exceptional people. Some of the best horse trainers are horrible people persons. I think this God complex that came with the clinician fad created this need for horse trainers to also be good with people from the general first time horse owner public. Clinton was a better people person than he was horse trainer but it seems that may be faltering. Again, I think he is going to be disappointed with the end result, he isn't good enough to get away with it.


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## BreezylBeezyl

I personally don't think he's a bad person or has a God complex necessarily, although I do echo what others have said about him in that he's become bitter. Jaded, if you will.

I can imagine the attitude that develops in a person when they are constantly dealing with problem horses made by problem people. This attitude has likely developed slowly over many years, and has now reached a point where he is beginning to show his resentment from the burnout. Now, everyone has to start somewhere, and he understand this (after all it's where he makes all his money) but at the same time I think he's getting close to done with working with beginners.

I think (and he probably thinks) he'd be happier working strictly with performance riders and horses, at least for a while. It's probably why he has trained several "Clinton Anderson Clinicians", to sort of take his place in that regard. And you know what, good for him. I think his method is effective and should continue to be passed down to the beginners who can make use of it, and he's done his job in passing that knowledge to these youngsters who are eager to get their feet wet in the horse industry. Now perhaps he can think about taking a step back and trying to find his enjoyment in all this again, because he is a good horseman at the core even if you don't like some of his particulars, and he trains quality performance horses.

Just my two cents. I do really think he's burned out and needs to assess the situation and move forward in some fashion, and with his many trained clinicians I think he has the means to do so. I have sympathy for him. I don't think he's a jerk, just really exhausted...... and I've been there myself in many aspects of my life, so I guess I get it. Sometimes I feel like we judge people in the public eye a little to harshly, because 'they're out there for the world to see so they need to set an example!'... But in the end, we're all just human beings with our own flaws (yes, you have them too) and our own states of being and we can't be perfect all the time. We're all fighting our own battles and life takes its tolls on us. Self-reflection is difficult to accomplish, but we all get there eventually. I hope he figures things out for himself for his own well being, because I think we can all tell he's not enjoying all the aspects of his career these days. And that's a sad thing to go through for any person. I certainly don't think he enjoys being miserable.

I really do genuinely hope he can find his happiness in the industry again in some regard, and sooner rather than later. He deserves it.


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## AnitaAnne

Very interesting thread. Going to put in my two cents, for what it is worth. 

First, I actually like him better after viewing the Titan video that was linked to this thread. He did appear much kinder to Titan than I remember seeing in other videos. In particular, when Titan kicked out I expected him to pop him. Lots of horses kick out like that when they are learning to change. It is sort of an overreaction to the cue to change. Since Titan is built downhill (IMO) it is hard for him to get his hind end down to change cleanly. CA said in the review of the ride that he was not concerned about Titan kicking out either. 

Second, IMO Titan did not look stressed out or tense, he actually looked quite relaxed to me. He actually looks a bit lazy at times and not paying attention for example when he tossed up his head in the sliding stop. Then CA basically woke him back up so he would do it right, which Titan did.

I do think this is asking too much of a three year old, but then I do believe a lot of QH types are worked too hard too young and will most likely need to retire early. 

As far as the rant goes, my guess is he is being blasted with letters or comments from mostly ladies that are accusing him of cruelty or something just for using a bit and riding with contact. I believe he is wishing for a little Karma, lol. 

I own and have ridden bit less, but my current horse really prefers a bit to chomp on when he is nervous. I have become over weight too, and with a bum knee always need a mounting block :icon_rolleyes:. But oddly I did not take offense at his rant, although he might have done better to not mention he'd wish death on them. 

Now on to the bad, when trying to watch his shows, they have 5 minutes of actual work and 25 minutes of commercials. So I don't watch them. 

Also, several of the training I have seen him do requires too fast of a response from the horse and they appear to be nervous wrecks. I train for a quick response too but I want my horse reacting calmly and confidently. I do not want to ride an over-reactive mess. 

My other objection is that he markets his "method" as if there is only one way to train a horse. I don't think there is only one way to train a horse. I have seen some very non-conventional methods work. This is why there will always be folks trying to market their method as the one that works, because there will always be horses that do not respond to conventional training. 

My biggest objection to CA and all the other trainers out there that market videos and DVDs to inexperienced newbies is that IMO they should direct those people to an experienced instructor instead of making these folks think they can train a horse from watching something on the TV. These folks are ruining horses because they don't have the experience to understand the horse and are just following a "method". 

I had a friend that kept watching these TV shows and CA was her guru. She kept telling me how I was doing everything wrong, especially riding on contact. So I let her ride one of my horses and I was giving her some instruction. This worked ok for a couple of rides then she got a little more confident and decided she would ride him the way she saw those big trainers ride and gave him big floppy reins. I watched that horse get madder and madder and start wringing his tail and tried to tell her what to do but she snapped at me. Five minutes later he dumped her and she never has ridden again. 

Sorry this is so long...bottom line, I don't follow CA but I have been riding, training and competing horses for 40+ years and am satisfied with my ways.


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## tinyliny

Moderator's note:

a couple of posts were removed only because of the reference to other social media sites' discussion of this topic. Sorry, but we ask members to NOT bring in 'drama' from outside sites, such as Facebook.


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## Smilie

Good sensible post, AnitaAnne

Roman, the last place you go fro any sensible advise/opinions, is Facebook
I just shake my head as to what people post on Facebook!
If you wish to ask anyone whether they agree with that ;lateral, and not vertical hyperflexion, as in Rolkur, at least ask the opinion of some fellow reining trainers, 
I think he over does that lateral flexion, don't do it like that myself, nor to that extent, but it is not the same as holding a horse hyper flexed position, while riding an extended period of time
I agree with AnitaAnne, in the first two videos of Titan that I did watch, the horse looks way more relaxed then many horses in other training programs, cavasson, mouth foaming, tail swishing, foam between the hind legs
You need to get out a bit, to see some true abuse, where trainers are not putting themselves out there on video, showing their training methods!
I showed at that Canadian National Appaloosa show one year, winning amateur western riding and placing third in open (western riding class, consists of a series of exact flying lead changes, between markers, in a pattern)
There was a professional trainer up from the states. He had a thin wire around the nose of his horse, in the warm up, to prevent that horse from opening his mouth, and about two runs before his-had his assistant remove it

One year at the Canadian Supreme (working cowhorse/reining show ) a trainer was dis qualified from the show, because in the warm up, he was seen hitting his horse between the ears, with a bat, during the sliding stop, to get that low head now rewarded in that stop
CA is putting himself out there, not showing a finished horse, but one he is training, and if all trainers opened their barns, to see 'behind the scenes', you would have a heck of a lot more to post about!
You might even be surprised as to how Rolkur is still used by many, at their own training barn
yes, CA might be burned out, as I can't imagine a worse career then working with owners of horses -not the horses, the OWNERS', and why I took a horse coaching course and never used it to teach people
My son did start outside colts, making money for university.
One of the most frequent question, which immediately identified an inexperienced horse person, was, 'will my colt be neck reining in a month!
I know, a bit off subject, but it does show the frustration of working with some horse owners!
I also find a very weird mind set of many people that chose bittless, which in itself is not a problem, but their stance that all bits are cruel, often that spurs are cruel, that one should only ride with a treeless saddle is, well not that accurate
If you don't like CA's Titan videos, don't watch them
On the other hand, I think he has helped many of those entry level people, by giving them some basic safe horse handling techniques.


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## AnitaAnne

*Smilie*: Should I now confess I ride treeless too? :biggrin: 

Unfortunately I purchased a horse a few years back and I couldn't find a saddle that fit him and my expanded rear. :redface: After many ill fitting saddles finally purchased a Barefoot Tahoe that I love and fits all my horses by just changing the pads. 

Do I think everyone should use one? Nope. 

Do I care what kind of saddle anyone uses so long as it fits their horse correctly? Nope. 

I do agree that most folks would be horrified if they saw many of the devices used on horses by even well know folks. As I live in the Heart of Dixie, home to many TWH over 50% of which are stallions, I have seen many things that make me shake my head. 

CA was not, IMO, using Rolkur on Titan. A bit over bent at times, but not the extreme, prolonged, vertical flexion seen in Rolkur. Sometimes during training a horse needs a little exaggeration of the aids to learn. The finished product is not what one sees during training, especially a young horse. 

This is the concept I have such a difficult time explaining to folks that just see these young horses "broke" in 30 minutes in a round pen and think that is a finished horse :icon_rolleyes:


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## Smilie

No problem with riding treeless, or bittless or barefoot.
I myself have ridden barefoot and bittless. (bosal or side pull )
One of my best friends, borrows hubby's trail horse to go riding with me. None of hers are really ready to ride out. She rides him in her treeless saddle , and I am perfectly fine with that. If she wished, she could also ride him bittless, but she prefers to ride him in the bit he is used to
When my niece from Ontario came out, and wanted to go on a trail ride, I gave her my stubbin to use, again, on hubby's horse, as she takes English lessons down east, and that is her comfort zone
I only have a problem when someone declares that all bits are cruel, that all traditional saddles cause pain, and that one should never have a horse shod, even short term


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## AnitaAnne

Smilie said:


> No problem with riding treeless, or bittless or barefoot.
> I myself have ridden barefoot and bittless. (bosal or side pull )
> One of my best friends, borrows hubby's trail horse to go riding with me. None of hers are really ready to ride out. She rides him in her treeless saddle , and I am perfectly fine with that. If she wished, she could also ride him bittless, but she prefers to ride him in the bit he is used to
> When my niece from Ontario came out, and wanted to go on a trail ride, I gave her my stubbin to use, again, on hubby's horse, as she takes English lessons down east, and that is her comfort zone
> I only have a problem when someone declares that all bits are cruel, that all traditional saddles cause pain, and that one should never have a horse shod, even short term


Agreed! I do believe those are the same folks driving CA to want a little Karma to come bite them back


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## Smilie

Actually, the new treeless saddles are really more of a hybrid, having some form of bridging, unlike those first ones that came out, and that then tried to fix that flaw, using special pads.
If I was younger, I might try one, but at my age, I'm kinda set using my balance ride for most of my riding, a saddle I bought some 30 years ago, and that is still my favorite one!


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## AnitaAnne

Smilie said:


> Actually, the new treeless saddles are really more of a hybrid, having some form of bridging, unlike those first ones that came out, and that then tried to fix that flaw, using special pads.
> If I was younger, I might try one, but at my age, I'm kinda set using my balance ride for most of my riding, a saddle I bought some 30 years ago, and that is still my favorite one!


True. this one has a firm plastic pommel and seat that can be removed. I changed it to the wide pommel to fit my flat withered RMHA gelding. 

It also has firm panels underneath made out of some sort of foam that make a channel for spinal protection 

I tried several other ones and they just don't work for me. 

Seems barrel racers are using treeless too, probably due to weight issues. 

Never ridden in a balance ride, but have heard good things about them.


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## BreezylBeezyl

I can see why people don't like the amount of lateral flexion he asks for, but to be honest I don't think it's that big of a crime. Clinton rides with a loose rein and only picks up the slack when he needs to, and he teaches his horses self carriage. I do agree that he really over-exaggerates cues for his green horses, though I think this is more so that they can easily learn the lesson being taught by making it clear what is expected. I do the same for horses new to a concept that I'm trying to teach, and I ride finished horses completely differently with more subtle cues because they are at an entirely other level in their training. 

Lateral flexion is incredibly important in teaching a horse to bend their rib cage (move off leg pressure) and allowing them to step under themselves and track up. It's not enough to be able to move forwards and back, your horse has to be supple to get the most of its performance and become athletic. I'm saying all this with performance horses in mind, but lateral work can benefit any horse, and rider, as the more supple and responsive your horse is the more control you have over them for safety reasons alone. I personally wouldn't ride a horse out on the trail that I know I doesn't have 100% of the buttons needed to feel safe, and 'go' and 'woah' are not nearly enough! I need to know that I can comfortably do a smooth emergency/one rein stop, maneuver around obstacles, side-pass around a shark infested puddle etc. if I need to.

In Rolkur techniques for example, the horse is being force held into a frame with tight reins (sometimes with draws or a double bridle attached) and drop nosebands to make the horse compliant. Clinton rides with no noseband at all and almost all horses he rides outside of the ring are in simple snaffle bits. Not once in these training videos will you see Titan gape his mouth open, even when asked for over-excessive lateral flexion. Clinton can and will strongly correct a horse using lateral flexion if they are bulging out against his leg or resisting the seat and leg (rude behavior), then let them go back out on a loose rein.

I will say one thing I do not agree with is how early he starts his performance horses, because I'm fairly confident over half of them will break down with soundness issues by the time they are 7 or 8. My half arab was broke at 2 and worked as a performance horse on the Arabian circuit for much of her young life and was diagnosed with arthritis and bone spurs in her hocks at 11... though I suspect she was unsound for longer than this.

I guess they will make some really nice and broke trail horses for people though in their early retirement!


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## KigerQueen

Interesting to learn after watching the latest titen vid. the horse is def. can't hear a thing. he uses a lot of verbal cues so he is having to adjust his training without them. i do not like the level of bridling up but i can see he genuinely likes that horse ALOT and he plans on taking the next 6 years or so for him to be a competitive horse. he is trying not to rush him.

I will refer his vids to beginners who dont want a trainer but they are a train wreck. helped a few people. once they had a starting point they lernt how hard or light they needed to be.


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## jaydee

I think most people going into early retirement would rather have a nice, broke sound trail horse than a nice, broke arthritic one!!!


Comparing CA's regular use of hyperflexion to Rolkurr is rather like thinking two wrongs make a right - Rolkurr is detrimental to a horse in so many ways and even if some people do still use it it doesn't justify any sort of training method that could result in a horse rubber necking
I can only reference what I see in reining videos aimed at training methods and this guy seems to have proven himself in that sphere but believes that bringing a horse's head around as far as CA does 'just because it can' isn't a great idea or necessary. 




I noticed in one of his earlier videos from 2007 that the horse is in a much better outline, not over bent and btv and so able to have good self carriage (riding bit starts around 4:42)




Yet everything he does now is about too much encouraging a horse to be too long deep and round and btv which in a horse that's already slightly downhill in its conformation seems like a bad idea




Novice riders following this example are going to end up with horses that suck back and get their chins on their chests at the slightest touch when asked to 'whoa' to the point that the only way they can halt them is to do a 1 rein stop


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## Smilie

Novice riders aren't cornered with riding a reiner, and I would be the first to admit, CA is not a reining trainer I would use. 
As you will have found out, Shawn Flarida, is a'who is who' in the reining World, a place CA has yet to enter!
However, his basic safe horse handling and getting a safe trail horse, a horse that respects his handler an rider, still applies, to the original market share he was targeting, along with Parelli and a host of other NH trainers
Perhaps it is unfortunate that he has muddied the waters , by trying to be a reiner.
At the same time, as someone who has done reining, I know exactly the amount of bend you want eventually, to perform a spin, ect, HOwever, there are many various training body supplying exercises that are used to achieve that end point
I don't; like CA, s method that much, but time will tell, just how flawed it is, and not comparing an end product to a training method
I think the thread started by someone just wanting some kind of guidance in creating a 'safe' horse, someone who might not have the financial resources to work with a local trainer, but is trying to train a horse that is just safe to ride-not rein, cut cattle, or any other advanced maneuver
Thus, teaching practical safe horse handling and training, resourcing these heavily advertised NH trainers, CA , in my opinion, beats people like Parelli hands down. 
He is not in the league of reiners like shawn Flarida, Andi Flappani, Dwayne Latimer, Cody Sapergia (had to throw in some Canadians ), but far as basic NH trainer, the audience he attracts, he is better then many.
Lets face it, entry level people are not into reining, and those that are, know who is proven in the industry


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## AnitaAnne

Oddly enough, I just recommended to a new boarder that she buy some CA training DVD's. I would have never thought I would do that, but she is very fearful after getting tossed back in March. She is so fearful and won't really let anyone help. So maybe CA can help her, or at least give her some concrete work to do and a step-by-step manual (if such a thing exists) 

It might help her to at least have a plan


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## Remali

rbranch said:


> So if I may ask, what about his methods do you think are too harsh?


In a nutshell, and to name just one thing I especially dislike, he's heavy-handed.... cranks and yanks on the horses' heads. Not to mention he likes to smack them when it is totally not necessary. If he can't control his temper, and if he doesn't know how to ride with his legs and seat... I wouldn't let him near my horse. Working a horse to exhaustion, and bullying a horse is not training. Of course then there is the way he treats people, just as badly as he treats the horses.... If you've ever seen someone run and run a horse into the ground, it isn't pretty. He's abusive, and he's horrible, and he truly should be banned.


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## jaydee

He was certainly very dismissive about the horse that he was 'moving' round and round because it wouldn't stand still to be mounted when it was so confused it over reacted and flipped itself right over landing heavily on its back on top of the saddle - Ok it was too late 'after the event' but if my horse had done that I'd have wanted it fully checked over before anyone sat on it again and not just 'meh' 
Even when it was allowing someone to sit on it the horse looked anxious and unhappy so not really a good learning method


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## Smilie

Okay, so just let us all apply crank nosebands, figure eight nose bands, drop nose bands, and then pat ourselves on the back as to how \gentle we are.
Yes, there are times he is a bit more assertive then I would like, but what is the difference in over flexing, and cranking a horse's mouth closed???
He has some good basic horse handing, to keep some pf the audience he targets safe.
You know, where posts begin', 'my horse is charging me, my gelding acts like a stud, my mare goes nuts when in heat, my horse walks all over me, my horse won'ts stand to be mounted' Lets get real. Mpre horses are ruined by beginning horse people who don't set black and white boundaries, letting a horse become spoiled, then they ever are by being treated too harshly
I mean, look at many of the posts here, for goodness sake!
People are in danger of being hurt, because their horse lacks good , clear and firm boundaries
I can count at least 5 posts recently, where the lack of respect in a gelding was attributed to the horse being maybe proud cut. 
The audience he is targeting, NEEDS guidance in keeping their horses from running all over them

I would much more see that flexing, then a horse with his mouth cranked shut by a dropped noseband, foaming at the mouth, presented as a happy horse, even though he has his neck so flexed that his nose is almost at his chest/


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## Smilie

jaydee said:


> I think most people going into early retirement would rather have a nice, broke sound trail horse than a nice, broke arthritic one!!!
> 
> 
> Comparing CA's regular use of hyperflexion to Rolkurr is rather like thinking two wrongs make a right - Rolkurr is detrimental to a horse in so many ways and even if some people do still use it it doesn't justify any sort of training method that could result in a horse rubber necking
> I can only reference what I see in reining videos aimed at training methods and this guy seems to have proven himself in that sphere but believes that bringing a horse's head around as far as CA does 'just because it can' isn't a great idea or necessary.
> Shawn Flarida - How Much Bend a Reining Horse Should Have in the Spin - YouTube
> I noticed in one of his earlier videos from 2007 that the horse is in a much better outline, not over bent and btv and so able to have good self carriage (riding bit starts around 4:42)
> Clinton Anderson and Mindy! - YouTube
> Yet everything he does now is about too much encouraging a horse to be too long deep and round and btv which in a horse that's already slightly downhill in its conformation seems like a bad idea
> Clinton Anderson Presents: Titan a Legend in the Making, Lesson 4, Part 6 - Downunder Horsemanship - YouTube
> Novice riders following this example are going to end up with horses that suck back and get their chins on their chests at the slightest touch when asked to 'whoa' to the point that the only way they can halt them is to do a 1 rein stop


Jaydee, novice riders are lucky to get a turn on the haunches, let alone a spin. There are many exercises used, to get a correct spin, which is a foreward motion, before you even get that showring spin. Yes, the shoulders have to move, and the horse has to move off of that outside rein as if it were hot
To get there, you use all kinds of training methods,including a counter bend circle, with a direct bend circle. You also will be showing that horse one handed, so again, if you have not done so, how do you really critique training methods?????
From what I see, CA\s horses stop correctly, hind end, and I doubt he would try to enter any reining event, if the only way he could stop a horse, would be to do a one rein stop.Again, his Titan videos have zero to do with his basic entry level videos, as I have yet to see any rider at that level try to execute a sliding stop, a spin or flying changes

I;m not saying he is in the league of Shawn Flarida, when it comes to reining training, but he is also not exacltly clueless!


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## COWCHICK77

Remali said:


> In a nutshell, and to name just one thing I especially dislike, he's heavy-handed.... cranks and yanks on the horses' heads. Not to mention he likes to smack them when it is totally not necessary. If he can't control his temper, and if he doesn't know how to ride with his legs and seat... I wouldn't let him near my horse. Working a horse to exhaustion, and bullying a horse is not training. Of course then there is the way he treats people, just as badly as he treats the horses.... If you've ever seen someone run and run a horse into the ground, it isn't pretty. He's abusive, and he's horrible, and he truly should be banned.


I'm definitely no Clinton fan. The word abuse can be subjective but I'd wouldn't consider him abusive. When I hear abuse I can think of a lot worse things that are done to horses. Nor do I think he should be banned, whatever that means. Banned from what? Do they have a clinicians union I don't know about? Banned from selling DVDs? Banned from RFDTV? Banned from the United States?


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## Smilie

Jaydee, you have not seen Titan in a final reining run, so to compare him to the way CA showed a horse some years ago, is simply not relevant
You are seeing TRAINING METHODS< not the end product, and the way you want a horse to turn around, eventually, to plus that maneuver , has not much to do with how he got there, except to state in was a progressive training, with an end goal.
If CA shows in reining, he knows better than you do, the amount of bend, forward and planting of that pivot foot that is needed'
A spin is not a hop around type maneuver, with the horse becoming elevated as in dressage, but a flat maneuver with reach, and front legs crossing over, as the horse thinks 'forward'
I also am no CA groupie, but the bashing by people outside of the western disciplines, esp, is just , well living in a glass house and throwing rocks!


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## tinyliny

Smilie,

people outside of the western disciplines can still know enough about horses and training , to have the right to have an opinion on CA. anything I ever said about him and his training methods would be as applicable if he were training a horse to dressage or WP or reining.


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## Smilie

sure, everyone can have an opinion, just like I can, concerning crank nose bands.
Fair enough.
At the same time, I don't show in hunter jumper, nor do many really knocking CA, show in reining.
He might be firmer then many, is over doing the lateral flexing, but lets at least let him show TItan, before judgments, as to end results
I still believe he has a lot to offer far as basic horse handling for entry level people, basic training to create safe horse, for those that don't have the luxury of working with atrainer, and are trying to train a horse on their own
HIs Titan videos have zero to do with any entry or novice people, so allow the reining World to judge him on those methods. I mean, he sure as heck knows you don't over bend a horse in that final product of a spin, nor do you resort to a one rein stop in a reining pattern!


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## tinyliny

agreed. I think we actually agree. can it be?

I do think he has helped many backyard riders/owners such as myself, find safer ways to deal with their horses. I don't use his techniques, per say, but use general techniques that he incorporates in his system, and maybe calls 'his', when they are more accurately called general handling skills coming from way back.

I am also probably far more permissive than he would give the stamp of approval to. it's ok. works for me.


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## jaydee

Smile will you please stop dragging drama from other threads
I commented on one particular incident that I saw in a video that I personally found quite disturbing - and I'm not someone who treats horses like puppy dogs - in fact I kept my first ponies on a racing yard and was taught to ride by one of the stable girls who worked there (as she also was a pretty good all round rider), spent a lot of my horse working life on a hunting yard and buying and selling horses
You've made a couple of rambling posts in some sort of response to mine and yet nothing in them is even remotely related to the incident I'm referring too
Did you even look for the video? Perhaps you should have done that or asked for a link before hitting your keyboard and then your posts would have made some sense


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## BreezylBeezyl

tinyliny said:


> people outside of the western disciplines can still know enough about horses and training , to have the right to have an opinion on CA. anything I ever said about him and his training methods would be as applicable if he were training a horse to dressage or WP or reining.


Okay, I agree with this if you are training a horse for a specific discipline. However that being said, I feel like a lot of people who are not involved in the world of performance horses and showing, and own horses more for recreation/leisure, are often the ones screaming out against him - particularly in regard to his Titan/performance horse training videos. I think this is what CA's frustration was all about when he made the comment about "tree huggers" etc, and I guess I understood where he was coming from, being involved in the world of horse showing myself.

I don't think many recreational riders quite understand what it takes to get a horse to the point of having a successful show career. Performance horses are athletes that have to be *pushed*, just like any human athlete serious about competing, to become better than they were yesterday. Of course there are ethical and non-ethical ways of doing this and no one is arguing that, and I'm probably not going to receive any love for what I'm about to say here, but my personal frustration comes from having to listen to people's opinions on performance horses and training, when they have little to no knowledge of that part of the horse industry. To me, voicing an opinion on something you are not familiar with, is not a valid opinion. Okay, I said it...

Many people not involved in showing or performance horse training do not understand the difference between ethically pushing a horse to be a better athlete, and outright abusing a horse to the point of being broken. They don't understand the difference between using a subtle aid of a rounded spur on a highly trained horse to promote lateral movement to achieve a higher level of performance, and spurring a confused horse that doesn't understand what you are asking until the point of bruising or bleeding at the rib cage.

It's a completely different thing to have the opinion that all horse showing is wrong - lots of people have this opinion, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I would never knock or spite anyone for having this opinion, even though mine is different. I have many friends who do not show and ride only for recreational purposes, and I do not consider them any less of a rider because of it, nor do I disrespect them or shun them because of it. HOWEVER....... I do expect that they have that same respect for those who DO show, and to me part of showing that respect is keeping their negative opinions on the finer points of training performance horses to themselves - because frankly their lack of knowledge in this area invalidates them from having these conversations with me. Once again, it doesn't make them any less of a rider or any less my friend, it just means we live in two different areas of the same world, and thus our knowledge and exposure also differs.

I think CA is really tired of hearing a lot of recreational riders, aka, "the tree huggin' idiots" who ride in bitless bridles and trail ride and are close to nature (words out of his mouth) comment that his training of performance horses is "barbaric" (also his words) - because they don't know the difference between a performance training program that pushes a horse to be an athlete, and outright abuse. He's probably tired of people voicing opinions on something they know nothing about.

Personally, as someone who shows Saddle Seat horses and gets a lot of comments about how my discipline is abusive because people do not know the difference between the Tennessee Walker "Big Lick" showing programs they see in animal activist documentaries and what I do, I completely, inexplicably, totally understand where he is coming from - just look at half the threads you see on this forum regarding Saddle Seat and you will understand what I mean.

I can also guarantee you've met one person in your lifetime, who is not a horse person (perhaps they are a family member or coworker) who has said at least one of the following:
- "That's not a sport, the horse does all the work"
- "I don't think horses should be ridden. They should be free to roam the wild on their own accord and not be slaves to human beings"

....And you have smiled politely to them and thought inwardly to yourself: _You sir, have no idea what you are talking about!_. You never gave them the time of day, you never let their comments phase you one bit. To you, their opinion on a subject they knew nothing about, was not valid and nothing to fret over.

I personally believe what CA said was an over-exaggeration and incredibly sarcastic comment on how he felt about this same subject to get a point across regarding the differences between different niches in the horse industry, and how people should keep their noses out of something they have no business sticking it in.

On the other hand, we all use the basics in horse training - we all use pressure and release, we all use horse psychology, we all use the idea of moving a horse's feet to gain respect. So if someone in any part of the horse industry wants to have an opinion on his level of firmness or techniques regarding that? Absolutely valid. Otherwise, I agree with Smilie in that the opinions on Titan and CA's performance horses should be left to the judges and his competitors in the reining ring.


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## jaydee

The thread was started asking for opinions in general about CA/his training methods - there's more to the topic than Titan


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## Smilie

jaydee said:


> The thread was started asking for opinions in general about CA/his training methods - there's more to the topic than Titan


So why does Titan come up again and again?
Yes, CA is pompous, obviously is a bit burned out, generalizes women to the type often found at entry level, but lets have some other trainers be open enough to show how they train. Not edited training videos, but the real picture behind the scenes.
If you could post that video in question, happy to look at it, before hitting the keys.

Bottom line, when I read posts on this site, the ones where a horse is disrespectful, walking over people new to horses, way, way, out weighs any of those entry level people being abusive, watching people like CA, but rather needing that reality check that a horse is not a pet, and that expectations of what soft might mean to a recreational rider, does not come close to softness required in a performance horse, esp one you will be showing at speed and on a loose rein


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## DimSum

Speed Racer said:


> You can be fat, old and need a mounting block due to old riding injuries, and still be a real horse person.


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## jaydee

These are the videos that possibly sparked a debate that contributed to CA having his outburst.
I have seen CA work with some horses and thought that what he was doing was justified - basically something that many horse people would do, but in this video I can't see it. Of course we don't know everything - why is the horse behaving like this, has he been checked over, has his tack been checked over, are there huge holes in his basic training, why is she riding in that curb bit etc etc. Maybe those things were addressed. All the same, he is using a 'reverse psychology' technique on the horse - 'you want to step away when someone tries to get on so I'll make you keep on stepping away until you're fed up with it'. 
Sometimes it works - but he totally fails to 'read' the horse so doesn't know when to stop, the horse is actually clueless as to why he's being pushed around, what's going through his mind? All that horse can think is 'You're telling me to move around and that's what I'm doing so why are you still getting after me so aggressively?'
In the end the only thing he can think to do is throw himself over backwards in an effort to make it stop
Now in a way it worked after a few yanks on its mouth, but the horse still looks uncomfortable and worried about the rider on its back. 
It might be something worth risking for a cheap 'disposable' horse but not something I'd want to do to a horse that was worth some money
This is the video. He starts off working the horse to load using his set method which goes OK and then at 9:27 starts working on the mounting issue which ends with the horse being so confused it goes right over backwards - at about 10:0






This one isn't much better either. A blind horse that the owner doesn't think backs up as sharply as it should - no thought at all for why it might be worried about going backwards - and in the end it really isn't doing anything other than running away from whatever it senses in front of it that its afraid of - you need to skip to around 20:55. Sorry but not my idea of how to train a confused horse, especially one that can't see properly


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## Smilie

i'm not into riding a blind horse, so just watched most of the first one, and to be honest, have no problem with anything I saw, and in fact, have used a much similar technique
Of course, the assumption being, that the horse first understands 'whoa'
With two bad knees, that eventually were replaced, my most vulnerable time is getting on and off a horse, as I can do neither fast. I also need a horse that stands by anything, that I can use as ground advantage on a trail ride
I don't trap ahorse between a wall, have someone hold it, and I want any horse, even a colt, once he understands whoa, to stand at that mounting block until told to move
I don't try to get on, even if I can, when a horse moves from amounting block. Instead, I get back off that block and do much as CA did-make those feet move, then I give the horse a chance to do the right thing, and stand on a loose rein, by the block, while I get on. Once my horses learn this, they will stand beside anything, that I use to get on. It could be straddled over a log, against the big tire of a tractor, used to harrow the arena at a show
Far as that curb, TW and some other gaited horses are started in shank bits. They never go through that snaffle stage
Sorry, I liked what I saw in that video
There could be other holes, but at these type demos, those trainers work with the horse they have at that time


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

jaydee said:


> Sometimes it works - *but he totally fails to 'read' the horse so doesn't know when to stop,* the horse is actually clueless as to why he's being pushed around, what's going through his mind? All that horse can think is 'You're telling me to move around and that's what I'm doing so why are you still getting after me so aggressively?'
> In the end the only thing he can think to do is throw himself over backwards in an effort to make it stop



A negative stimulus that cannot be stopped by any behavior of the subject creates learned helplessness. Its that dead look you see in some horse's eyes. 

If you want to create a neurosis, there isn’t a better way of accomplishing that except with random punishment.

If an animal does not understand why they are being punished (random punishment) or what behavior is desired to make the punishment stop, what are you accomplishing other than creating fear that the world is unpredictable and that bad things can happen at any time for no reason?

That is how you “Cowboy” a horse. I own a "cowboyed" horse and he's a mental mess.

The horse in the video is not learning anything productive the way it was being presented to him.

JMO.


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## Smilie

well, we all see things differently. I see a dangerous horse, with a wreak waiting to happen
I d not see learned helplessness, but rather making the wrong thing hard and the right thing easy
Better to get after a horse once, to get a point across, and then treat him like nothing happened, ending on a good note
The horse sure did get the point that standing, doing the right thing, was the correct and easy answer-that and the fact CA even mentioned not to just ride him off, but to spend time first having him relax when the rider gets on, instead of expecting to be just ridden off-something that is again common in training TW, who get a shanked bit and then are just allowed and encouraged to move out, versus some true suppling type of training
Might bot have gotten after one of my horses to that extent, when they did not stand at the mounting block, but sure backed them hard across the entire arena, in hand, or made them move those hips around fast, several turns
My horses certainly don't have learned helplessness, as they stand relaxed, on a loose rein, waiting for direction. A horse that instead takes off, has assumed control, and a horse allowed to walk off, can soon even up the anti to bolting, soon as they feel that foot in the stirrup
That spoiled Anglo Arabian stallion i had as a kid, and about who I posted before, would take off at a gallop, once I had one foot in the stirrup. At the time, being a teenager, I thought it was '\neat, afterall, some of my favorite cowboy heroes mounted at the gallop!


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## QHDragon

This has turned into an interesting conversation. I find it a bit off putting to be told that I can't form opinions on a trainer because I am a "novice." Just because I don't have my hat out saying I am a professional, doesn't mean that I, or any other "novice" can't form opinions on a trainer's methods. Be they favorable or otherwise. Will I ever compete at the top levels of my sport? No, probably not. Simply because I don't have the financial backing to do so. 

Good training is good training, and should be done irregardless of if the horse is going to be marketed or shown at the top level of the chosen sport, or if they are "only" going to be a trail or recreational horse. Recreational horses still benefit from knowing how to pivot, how to bend, how to back. Riding a horse that is stiff as a board, and doesn't understand leg communication or seat communication, down a winding and twisting trail is pretty miserable, I know from experience. 

A pushy horse is not fun, neither is one that won't stand at a mounting block. I have two bad knees that have required multiple surgeries to fix, and I have a very hard time getting on. I had to buy the tallest mounting block I could find in order to make mounting easier for me. I think that is part of the reason that I took such offense to CA's original comment. When I first got my mare she would not stand still to be mounted. Her previous owner was much more nimble than eye, and could mount any horse regardless of where they were standing in relation to the mounting block, or if they were standing completely still or not. I taught my mare to stand still using repetition and positive reinforcement. She is food motivated, so standing still to be mounted earned her a cookie. Not standing still earned her a few circles around the mounting block. Over time she learned to just stand still, and now I don't have to use cookies or anything else. She just stands for however long it takes me to get on. Bullying a horse into the proper behavior is not acceptable, ever, and I feel that many of CA's methods are not the natural horsemanship that he original marketed himself as subscribing to. They look like bullying and abuse at this point.


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## jaydee

I've bought enough horses that wouldn't stand still to be mounted and managed to train them out of it without all of that confrontational approach and the horse ending up on the floor to know that it isn't necessary.


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## QHDragon

jaydee said:


> The thread was started asking for opinions in general about CA/his training methods - there's more to the topic than Titan





jaydee said:


> These are the videos that possibly sparked a debate that contributed to CA having his outburst.
> I have seen CA work with some horses and thought that what he was doing was justified - basically something that many horse people would do, but in this video I can't see it. Of course we don't know everything - why is the horse behaving like this, has he been checked over, has his tack been checked over, are there huge holes in his basic training, why is she riding in that curb bit etc etc. Maybe those things were addressed. All the same, he is using a 'reverse psychology' technique on the horse - 'you want to step away when someone tries to get on so I'll make you keep on stepping away until you're fed up with it'.
> Sometimes it works - but he totally fails to 'read' the horse so doesn't know when to stop, the horse is actually clueless as to why he's being pushed around, what's going through his mind? All that horse can think is 'You're telling me to move around and that's what I'm doing so why are you still getting after me so aggressively?'
> In the end the only thing he can think to do is throw himself over backwards in an effort to make it stop
> Now in a way it worked after a few yanks on its mouth, but the horse still looks uncomfortable and worried about the rider on its back.
> It might be something worth risking for a cheap 'disposable' horse but not something I'd want to do to a horse that was worth some money
> This is the video. He starts off working the horse to load using his set method which goes OK and then at 9:27 starts working on the mounting issue which ends with the horse being so confused it goes right over backwards - at about 10:0
> Clinton Anderson Presents: Star Treatment - YouTube
> 
> 
> This one isn't much better either. A blind horse that the owner doesn't think backs up as sharply as it should - no thought at all for why it might be worried about going backwards - and in the end it really isn't doing anything other than running away from whatever it senses in front of it that its afraid of - you need to skip to around 20:55. Sorry but not my idea of how to train a confused horse, especially one that can't see properly
> Clinton Anderson Presents: Not Seeing Is Believing - YouTube


So, I finally got to watch both of these videos.

The first one, yes the horse clearly has issues that need to be addressed. However, I wonder if many of the issues are related to the tom thumb bit in its mouth, and if the owner has been yanking on that so much that she has taught him to rear without knowing it. If a horse can't go forward, and can't go back, the only way left for them to go is up. I would also question saddle fit as the horse seems to be fairly well mannered until she mounts up. He is standing quietly with a pleasant expression on his face until she sets herself up to mount. Then he becomes worried. 

As to him flipping over, holy poo. If I was his owner I would be ****ed. First off flipping over could have potentially broken the tree on her saddle, meaning she now has to shell out the money for a new one. It could have also have broken the horse's withers, or at the very least made him very sore. I would have wanted a through examination by a vet ASAP, and then I would have told CA where he could shove his training. Never should a horse feel compelled to flip itself over. 

In the second video I can not wrap my brain around why the owner felt the need for him to have a better back. It looks like the horse is well trained already, and does back up. The amount of training that he has is pretty impressive considering him being blind. He also seems to have a really good relationship with his owner. To get so rough with him seems way out of line, and could potentially make him distrustful of humans and break the relationship that he has with his human. Again, if I was that owner I would have told CA where to shove it with his training.


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## Smilie

jaydee said:


> I've bought enough horses that wouldn't stand still to be mounted and managed to train them out of it without all of that confrontational approach and the horse ending up on the floor to know that it isn't necessary.


Never had a horse wind up on the floor, as mine don't need reforming, as they are trained from the beginning to stand, and that whoa is an absolute
Not saying I completely agree with everything CA is doing, but when these NH types give clinics with problem horses, they set out to show results, much quicker then then would at home, in a very narrow time frame-not much different from colt starting challenges, where those trainers in those clinics, state right up front that they would not be starting a colt in that rushed manner at home
At the same time, I never, never use food bribes to get a horse to do anything. I might give a random treat, after a good ride, ect
No one is saying to use his methods if they are not for you, or to follow what he is doing Carte Blanche, esp as to degree of pressure
At the same time the basic principle of what he is doing in that case, is solid
There is a difference in having a horse, as bad as that one,for taking off , in one lesson, stand, and working on a horse for a week or so to get results.
Colt starting NH clinics-they are partly entertainment, folks!


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## Smilie

That horse was not just taking off, but going up when that owner tried to stop her from doing so. It is lucky the horse did not go over with that owner before cA even worked with her!


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## tinyliny

I've always kind of wondered why the horses that CA is pushing in very tight circles like that, don't reach around an bite him.

it's not that that technique is unheard of, or outrageous or cruel. I've seen other trainers do it, just none do it so close. the hrose is nearly pulled onto the human, so , why can't it just reach over and bite him? her mouth was on his shoulder several times.

in any case, he gets results. and gets 'em fast.


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## Smilie

I watched some of that video again.
That horse does not give to pressure correctly, and is also why she went up and over. That woman is lucky the horse did not go over on her, in those beginning shots. Not only is she trying to mount on the go, but when she tries to stop the horse from taking off, that horse goes up
Sure, she most likely has huge holes in training, beginning with the fact that most likely, as a TW, she never even had a snaffle used in the beginning
CA is asking that horse to dis engage her hips, and where she goes up and over, she refused to yield those hips,m and sure a heck of a lot better that she went over, on the ground, then in some of those episodes with her owner, shown in the beginning
When the horse decides to stand, pressure is off. I don't know, this was a dangerous horse, and I would rather see a harsh fix, then release, then that endless pick, pick, pick, and hope horsey finally stands.
CA and others like him, get problem horses brought to him , ones owners have allowed to become the way they are.


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## tinyliny

I sure wouldn't have ridden that horse.


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## Kaifyre

lol I've been wanting to start a thread like this for weeks and someone finally beat me to it! Heh ...
I grew up picking and choosing which training methods I liked and leaving behind the ones I didn't, much like the rest of you. When I turned 12 my parents bought me my first horse - a 3 year old half Arab with 30 days of training. Can we say YIKES! But luckily Mirage was an absolute perfect horse for me, and I'd learned enough about horses by then to know which end bites and which end kicks, so I never had more than the occasional minor problem with her. I first heard about CA when I was a freshman in high school, and it was at that point that my horsemanship climbed to a whole new level. I'd always been a confident rider, but now I was challenging myself and my horse in ways I'd never thought of before, and we were combining our separate halves to form a cohesive whole - which is what riding is all about, of course. To this day I've never purchased a DVD from CA, and I've only been to 1 walkabout tour, but half a lifetime's worth of watching his shows on RFD-TV before they were all commercialized has made me a better horse(wo)man than I was before, and that in my opinion makes him overall positive.
I won't say I absolutely love everything about him and his method - but (if I may make a small boast) I am very good at watching someone do something once, and applying it to my particular situation. I think for people like that his method is awesome. People who cannot read their horse, who don't know when to back off and when to crank it up a notch, who have no concept of timing or anything like that, those people can ruin a horse using this method. Or at least the more advanced aspects of it. I get what he was trying to accomplish with his one-size-fits-all thing, but unless you're sticking to fundamentals you really should know what you're doing if you want to take the method to the end.

--Kai


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## AnitaAnne

The TW mare that flips - have seen this video before and my first thought both times was "that saddle doesn't fit right". It looks too far back and many mares are tender over the loins, exactly where the rider is sitting. 

Why does CA not ever address tack fit/placement? The mare continues to look very uncomfortable even after the "training" has occurred. 

This is the type of situation that appears to be rider-caused, not a disobedient horse. Yanking on the bit then instructs the horse to toss her head, eventually escalating to rearing. The horse is just doing what she thinks the rider wants. 

Plus, as mentioned before, lots of TWH are trained to take off as soon as mounted. 

The horse & saddle should have been thoroughly checked for injury and damage prior to continuing. This is not an optional step and I cringe to think of the many folks that may watch this then flip their own horse without a care. 

This is CA biggest fault, no concern for the horse's safety. This is why I consider him too harsh. The horses appear to be treated as if they are a disposable commodity. When I focus on CA's face, sometimes he looks at a horse with disgust, as if he just doesn't like them at all. He always seems harsher to those ones. 

The difference in the Titan videos is he seems to care about the horse's feelings and is much more forgiving in his approach. 

Is he nicer to Titan because he is deaf? Or because he is a "high dollar horse"? Or because he belongs to CA? Or has CA finally found his heart-horse? Or may be a combination of things. 

Not going to comment on the blind horse video.


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## BreezylBeezyl

> Is he nicer to Titan because he is deaf? Or because he is a "high dollar horse"? Or because he belongs to CA? Or has CA finally found his heart-horse?


I don't think it's any of those things. I'm nearly certain it's because Titan is not a problem horse - he's a performance horse. He doesn't have any issues or vices that need dealing with, he has a horse who is willing and has a work ethic, understands the basics, and now Clinton only has to focus on refinement of the aids and getting him show ring ready.

He's already worked through all the bull with Titan. I'm sure there was a time where the two of them had to discuss their pecking order, but that era has long passed for them as a team, and thus Clinton rarely ever needs to rag on him. That's the thing I love about riding performance horses myself - they are just _broke_. They understand their jobs and don't have nasty habits that need constant correcting. It's the same reason why we encourage new riders/horse owners to seek out dead-broke horses, and not green babies who need constant guidance.

Titan is not yet a 'finished' horse (meaning he's not yet a proven horse in his discipline), but he is certainly broke.



> Why does CA not ever address tack fit/placement?


I've wondered this myself. Perhaps he does all this off-screen, but somehow I doubt it. I'm not sure what his protocol is regarding this subject.


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## jaydee

Yes the horse has problems but when you take on a horse with problems like that you first go through the list of why its doing it and not immediately start punishing it for doing it
If anyone here had a horse that got stressed out like that when it was being sat on there'd be a whole barrage of members telling them to get its back checked, get its saddle checked, check it for ulcers, get its teeth checked - get rid of the curb bit - why on earth did a horse that looked really green and had trouble understanding 'go forward' have what looked to be a Tom Thumb in it's mouth? I would be more inclined to think that the rearing was being caused by the fact that it didn't know how to move forward into that bit contact, was getting no release of pressure so went up instead
To justify something like that 'because it worked' is rather like saying if you cut your horse's legs of it'll slow it down. Yes it will work but at what cost
I don't like everything this guy does but he adopts the same principle of making the horse move when it doesn't want to stand still and shows how to do it correctly, he stays calm, he keeps the situation under control so the horse remains calm and he knows when to stop because he's watching the horse all the time so it doesn't become over reactive the way CA's horse did. When he gets on the horse it looks relaxed and willing and not like a victim




And another video I found of him working with a horse that had a problem bolting when it was mounted - again, lots of time taken, the horse is kept calm and the end result will be much better than one where the horse has been rushed and bullied


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## Smilie

I was on an all day desert hike-yes we have the Badlands in Alberta=a geographical
anomaly.
I thought the CA thread might have run it's course by now!
The horse has that bit in her mouth, because that is the bit this horse most likley has been started in, and ridden with, being a TW
Yes, I believe a problem horse should be put back in a snaffle, and wish he would have done so
However, the owner was getting on that horse with a loose rein, with that horse trying to take off, then adding contact when the horse tried to pretty much bolt

That video is also not a training tape, showing how to teach a horse to stand for mounting, but rathe rin fixing a problem horse that has learned to take off, and thus is dangerous
The owner admits that this is only her second horse in her life, and she wants a \safe' horse. CA had a time limit, to show results, as all those NH trainers have, when presented with a problem horse.
go back in time, and look at some of the methods used by professor Beardsly (sp?)
There is a big difference in teaching a horse to stand, and in re training one that has learned to try and bolt and take off, and one with that degree of resistance that horse has
The horse is not being cowboyed, as that to me denotes ahorse that knows nothing, as in days of old, on the range, that were blind folded, hobbled, while some one got on, and then had those constraints removed, while that cowboy bucked the horse out


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## Smilie

Very simple, if you don't like his methods, don't use them!
I see the horses he is riding, as being 'broke', whether taking a cow down the fence or on a trail
Those horses are not held with tight rein, look intimidated, fearful or bullied. They work with a closed mouth, no cavasson, so to completely bash him is rather silly, JMO


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## Smilie

Yes, I;m going to post this one, even though it has some flexing.


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## tinyliny

Smilie said:


> Yes, I;m going to post this one, *even though it has some flexing.
> *
> Training horse not to walk off when mounting - Clinton Anderson - YouTube



NO! oh no! not . . "flexing"!


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## Smilie

Oh. come on, have a look.
It is something I myself have done occasionally, once to each side, before riding off


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## Smilie

Maybe another view, depending on the horse, and just maybe he is not quite what you view from afew videos

Repeat youtube Clinton Anderson Presents: You Don't Know Jack on Repeatube.com


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## tinyliny

I was just kidding, smilie.


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## 6gun Kid

AnitaAnne said:


> Why does CA not ever address tack fit/placement? The mare continues to look very uncomfortable even after the "training" has occurred.
> .


This is just an opinion, based mostly on a guess, so,take it for what it is worth. As a former working ranch hand, we are given a "string" of horses to ride/train/use. You try and find a saddle that fits "most" horses, and pad up or down til you get a fit. Fitting a horse to a saddle is impossible in these situations, so you do the best you can with what you have.


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## tinyliny

that's sensible, given the situation, but if he is presented with a problem horse, by a backyard horse owner, you'd think one of the first things he'd do is look at saddle fit. I mean, if the problem this horse was exhibiting was one that might be caused by ill-fitting tack.


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## Smilie

tinyliny said:


> I was just kidding, smilie.


Kinda thought so!
I just posted these other two videos to show another aspect of the man, as the topic was CA as a trainer, and to completely knock him, based on working with a horse that has taken leaving while mounted to the extreme, not fair
His dealing with a fearful horse, (Jack) shows someone, that to me, adjusts his approach to the horse, and remains as having a lot to offer in basic horsemanship, helping some of those people stay safe.
Quite a few posts here, verify that position
I;m not a groupie of CA, never taken a Walk About seminar, never ordered one of his videos, but do watch some of his stuff, esp when it is presented on this forum, and I thus find him to be like any other descent horse trainer, esp one that works with people and problem horses, where one takes from them what works for you and discard the rest.
In his promotional introduction, I see horses that are light, look like they are working relaxed, on a loose rein, and you don't get that, if your general mode of training is through lack of empathy,reading a horse correctly, and by not knowing when to give release correctly.
It is way better to get after a horse hard,once, one that knows what is being asked, but has instead become dangerous, and get that point across, then be able to completely remove that pressure and allow the horse to do the right thing, being as gentle with that horse as possible, then to pick on a horse


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## Smilie

6gun Kid said:


> This is just an opinion, based mostly on a guess, so,take it for what it is worth. As a former working ranch hand, we are given a "string" of horses to ride/train/use. You try and find a saddle that fits "most" horses, and pad up or down til you get a fit. Fitting a horse to a saddle is impossible in these situations, so you do the best you can with what you have.


Agree.
While a horse should never have an ill fitting saddle, all too often here, tack fit is given as an immediate excuse for any horse acting up, when in many cases, what is lacking is good basics and wet saddle blankets
THose with just one horse, might find custom saddle fitting worthwhile, but anyone training a number of horses every year, certainly does not custom fit each saddle
I started and rode colts year after year, using my balance ride saddle. I bought a second working saddle when my present main trail horse was born with some conformation way different then most of my horses (no wither, flat broad back )
I doubt very much that saddle fit is the cause of that horse reacting the way she does, being mounted.
The horse has been allowed to get away with moving off, and then took it to the next level, with her generally green rider


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## AnitaAnne

6gun Kid said:


> This is just an opinion, based mostly on a guess, so,take it for what it is worth. As a former working ranch hand, we are given a "string" of horses to ride/train/use. You try and find a saddle that fits "most" horses, and pad up or down til you get a fit. Fitting a horse to a saddle is impossible in these situations, so you do the best you can with what you have.


Totally understand the practical considerations of having many horses and finding a mostly-fits solution. 

We have a lot of Walking horses here, and they can be really difficult to fit a saddle to. I am not saying he should recommend a custom fitted saddle or anything like that. I just think the fit of the tack should be step one when it looks so wrong. 

The _first thing _I check is the saddle fit when the horse is difficult to mount. I want the session to be successful, so I make sure there is _no excuses _before we start. Cause I don't want the horse to 1) be in pain or 2) be distracted by the pain. Sometimes, one has to listen to what the horse is trying to say. 

Some horses will work anyway, then at the end of a ride you find hair worn off their withers or girth for example. Long term this can shorten their useful working life. Short term it can mean no riding for weeks until they heal, and create problems in a more sensitive horse. I don't want the horse to be injured by ill fitting tack when I ride. 

A bit is only as harsh as the hands on the reins, but a saddle that doesn't fit can't be adjusted by ones riding.


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## AnitaAnne

Will add most horses can fit into standard medium-wide treed English saddles. For western the QH bars with 7/8 rigging seem to fit the most, with some wide horses needing the FQH bars. 

But Walkers can have some really high withers, and that is why they are often ridden in the cut-back saddle. 

TB seem to fit best in narrow or medium trees. I had an appendix with shark fin withers and had to put an extra pad in the center to keep the saddle off his withers. He rode best in my Circle C medium tree endurance saddle with center fire rigging.


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## Smilie

Just watching that video, I would not automatically make the call that the saddle is such a bad fit, it is the reason the horse objects to being mounted
Maybe it sits a tad low, but there is always 
wither clearance. I rather suspect that the horse might at first just walked off a bit when the owner first bought him, and was never corrected for doing so, and then
he just got worse
Once the mounting drama passed, he did not resort to bucking, refusing to move forward-things I would associate more with an ill fitting saddle


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## Foxhunter

problems usually stem, not from ill fitting saddles but from lack of leadership - give an inch and they can take a mile. 

All to often badly fitting saddle, bad back, ulcers et al are given as reasons I am not saying that these things can exasperate a problem but rarely is it a cause of a serious problem. 

After all, if you have a bad back are you going to want to go out and do aerobics? Much the same with a misaligned horses - the pain will make them move badly but they are very unlikely to want to buck.


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## BreezylBeezyl

Foxhunter said:


> problems usually stem, not from ill fitting saddles but from lack of leadership - give an inch and they can take a mile.
> 
> All to often badly fitting saddle, bad back, ulcers et al are given as reasons I am not saying that these things can exasperate a problem but rarely is it a cause of a serious problem.
> 
> After all, if you have a bad back are you going to want to go out and do aerobics? Much the same with a misaligned horses - the pain will make them move badly but they are very unlikely to want to buck.


:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Remember also that horses are resolute, stalwart creatures who made their survival possible from not showing signs of injury to predators. They are pretty darn good at acting tough. That's not to say that health issues and tack fit isn't important or don't exist in the realm of training - just that a horse will naturally put up with a lot before making a big deal out of it.

I always imagine that a saddle fit to a horse is like a back pack fit for a human for hiking purposes. I did a 15km hiking trip with a hiking pack that did not fit me: it was too tall for me, resulting in the 30lbs of gear inside to pull on my shoulders and causing inclines to be more difficult for me. Yes my shoulders were strained, but I was still able to make it through the hike without any long lasting injuries because I still had many straps that helped distribute the weight across my entire form. I was pretty sore for about two days after, but I think that's more from doing an intense 15km hike through the Canadian Rockies... :lol:

My opinion on that TWH: if it could manage semi-rears and make sudden movements without the saddle slipping... Then the fit is fine.

EDIT: Took a screenshot from the video. Make your own call, but it looks like the saddle fits just fine to me. Moderate wither clearance and the gullet fits nicely around the shoulders, no bridging, etc.


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## KigerQueen

my friend had some serious lameness issues with her horse. vets thought it was navicular, had several horrid trims and contracted heals from farriers trying to "fix it" osphos, bursa injections weekly chiro you name it. she one day asks us if the saddle fit. we took one look and told her is no way shape or form did it fit her down hill swayed back. after getting a saddle that fit ALMOST perfect the lameness dissapeard! (it was all a saddle fit causing her to move weird). Moral of the story is that this horse was 100% well behaved undersaddle. she never had a moment or misbehaved. and her saddle fit was beyond horrid and fooled 3 vets into thinking she has some physical lameness issues. so saddle fit is important, but its not an excuse.


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## Smilie

KigerQueen said:


> my friend had some serious lameness issues with her horse. vets thought it was navicular, had several horrid trims and contracted heals from farriers trying to "fix it" osphos, bursa injections weekly chiro you name it. she one day asks us if the saddle fit. we took one look and told her is no way shape or form did it fit her down hill swayed back. after getting a saddle that fit ALMOST perfect the lameness dissapeard! (it was all a saddle fit causing her to move weird). Moral of the story is that this horse was 100% well behaved undersaddle. she never had a moment or misbehaved. and her saddle fit was beyond horrid and fooled 3 vets into thinking she has some physical lameness issues. so saddle fit is important, but its not an excuse.


Not saying saddle fit is not important, just that the saddle in that Video is not where I would make a call that it did not fit
I would imagine if that saddle was of such poor ft, CA would have addressed it.
Unlike this forum, I doubt he puts in the usual disclaimer each time to rule out pain first, making it more \assumed'
Any good trainer can spot when a saddle is most likely part of the problem
"elementary, dear Watson!'


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## KigerQueen

i was siding with you smilie. saying that a saddle fit issue is no excuse for bad behaviour. that the horse i was talking about was going lame and trowing her shoulder and hips out from a bad saddle fit but was well behaved the entire time.


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## Foxhunter

A friend of mine had a home bred mare that bucked. The fact was the mare was a very talented show jumper but was totally mannerless, the owner had been an international show jumper and it surprised me at how many excuses she made for their behaviour.

My chiropractor adjusted her horses and when the mare was turned out she gave a right royal rodeo performance. The owner remarked, "well, that adjustment has made a big change to her. I bet because she was misaligned was why she bucked." 

WRONG,

That mare could have held her own with the best bucking horses! I have never seen a horse that could have her head between her front legs and her backside over her withers! 

Only after she dropped her owner and she was out of the saddle for twelve weeks amd I started riding this mare and correcting every little thing, did she stop her antics.


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## Smilie

Great example, Foxhunter!
I never want to come across as someone who does not rule out any pain issue first, but at the same time, I find many inexperienced horse people jump on that band wagon, when in fact, all the horse needs is good work ethics
Horses are only as good as you expect them to be!


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## Remali

So people outside of the "western disciplines" aren't allowed to have opinions?
How about those of us who ride/show western, ride/show dressage, and do trail? I do think that our training opinions are very valid. After all, most of the western disciplines have their basics in lower level dressage. And, FWIW, I wasn't bashing, I am just stating what I've seen of CA, and a few others like him for that matter. Training methods, even very early on, have absolutely everything to do with the end result. Just because someone like CA shows in a certain discipline, doesn't mean he "knows better".


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## Palomine

Don't like the cheeking he does, don't like his methods...and that was only reinforced over the deal with the Friesian and his subsequent ranting on his website about looky loos and sticky beaks.

An awful lot of people have seen him be abusive.


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## Smilie

Again, you don't have to like him, don't have to use his methods, but it is not exactly fair to bash him in entirety. 
The last video I posted, how about actually giving him at least some credit, and he has helped many new people stay safe with horses, as more people new to horses are prone to spoil them, by not having clear boundaries, then to err on the side of abuse.
How many posts do we have of horses walking over people, running over people, geldings declared to be proud cut, mares that people can't manage while in heat,ect, ect
Funny, buck,B. is infallible ,according to many here, yet I found roping the back leg of that stud and immediately having someone get on the horse, totally wrong, throwing an already aggressive horse into fight mode.
He also had an agenda-to get that horse rode, in as short a time as possible
As I have stated over and over again, I am not a CA groupie, but I do believe he is very firm at times, but along ways from abusive.
If you think his methods, used on mostly spoiled or problem horses,a re abusive, then you need to get out and visit some regular training barns!


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## Carrie94

Just my two cents -

English riders/trainers do NOT have the qualifications to bash a Western rider/trainer for his/her techniques on their high-end performance horses.

Likewise,

Western riders/trainers do not have the qualifications to bash an English rider/trainer for his/her techniques on their high-end performance horses.

Unless, of course, there's clear abuse (and a lot of people don't know the definition).

People have to realize that reining horses (as CA trains) are bred to do very well in reining. You don't like how fast they back up? How they stop like they're breaking their hind legs off? Unless you compete in reining, it's none of your beeswax. They're bred to do it and they love to do it.

Likewise, jumping horses are bred to do well in jumping. You don't like that it's super strenuous on their front limbs? That people ride them over 6ft fences? That they always have contact with their mouths? Again, unless you compete in jumping, none of your beeswax.

Just like children, horses need to be TAUGHT. Will you never spank your child when he disrespects you? Of course the punishment for disrespect is different with horses than with children, but the principle is the same.

I'd rather have a horse that knew his manners than one that ran over the top of me - because yes, the horses that could care less about a human being standing in front of them are extremely dangerous and they could kill you. I'd rather give him a hard whack with a stick across their nose than go to the hospital with extreme injuries - because yes, my life is more important than the life of my horse.


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## tinyliny

having an opinion that may not be adoring does not make it 'bashing'. I can accept that some of his techniques work for that area, but still not 'like' them.


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## Joel Reiter

tinyliny said:


> having an opinion that may not be adoring does not make it 'bashing'. I can accept that some of his techniques work for that area, but still not 'like' them.


Agreed. Clinton Anderson helped me more than any other person and I recommend his material to people who are new to horses. That doesn't mean I have to like everything he does.


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## DimSum

tinyliny said:


> having an opinion that may not be adoring does not make it 'bashing'. I can accept that some of his techniques work for that area, but still not 'like' them.


Yup, and not just in the horse world. People tend to take an "all or nothing" approach-either you unconditionally support (insert whatever trainer, philosopher, sports team, political party, cooking show host, etc.) or you are a "bashing hater". That's very narrow minded black or white thinking in a world that is hopelessly gray.

I prefer to take the Chinese Buffet approach not just with horses but with life in general. Meaning, when I go to a buffet I don't filll my plate with only one favorite dish and consider nothing else. I take a little of this, and a little of that, and I might try a taste of something new to see if I like it. Sticking with that analogy, I do think some of CL's techniques work but that doesn't translate to accepting his personality.


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## Smilie

Joel Reiter said:


> Agreed. Clinton Anderson helped me more than any other person and I recommend his material to people who are new to horses. That doesn't mean I have to like everything he does.


Ditto, and the main gist I have tried to point out during this entire thread

None that heavily trashed him on the Titan videos, or even on that horse that took off mounting, even conceeded that the video I posted, having him work with a horse that had become hard to halter, where he shows what I consider a very good approach
Us what works for you, or none of it,, notice that his horses work relaxed, mouths closed, no cavassons , and don't look like horses confused, due to unfair techniques
Realize the main audience he targets,and perhaps compare him to others that work mainly with problem horses, trying to help those persons who often created those problems, to stay safe, or never go there to begin with
Go to some traditional training barns, un announced, and observe how some of those horses are being trained,'out of sight and out of mind\, by the vast majority of the public being unaware


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## Change

A friend of mine is a professional animal handler/trainer for movie animals. She's an amazingly gifted trainer, and can get dogs, wolves, horses, camels, tigers, elephants and more to do incredible things. I've known her for several years now, and something I've noticed since she's gone 'pro' is that she is completely intolerant of rude behavior from any animal she is working with. Her reactions are immediate and sometimes very harsh, but I've yet to see any animal she's corrected repeat their error a second time! 

When one of my sister's 17h Percherons got moving too fast on the lead with her (she's about 110 lbs), trying to pull ahead, she spun him around and had him backing as if his life depended on getting away from her. After 15 seconds of that, she calmly turned and led him off. That 1900lb horse parked his nose 2' off her shoulder and matched her pace exactly. If she stopped, he stopped. If she stepped backward, so did he. 

I may not always agree with what she's doing while she's doing it, but I have to say they work! When she's on the set, she doesn't have time to spend hours getting a supposedly trained animal to do as expected. They need to get it right in 2 or 3 takes, max! 

(Note: on set, the animal usually has been worked/trained to perform a given trick or task)


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## WestCoasted

*Snake Oil for Horses*

Now wait, you fellers, hold it! 
You went and over-sold it! 
I guarantee that what you have there won't compare 
For the very most important ingredient 
Can't be added or done expedient 
And it's quality, friends and neighbors, quality and care! 


IMO...I have a problem with the speed he trains. For example, the TWH video. There were multiple issues with that mare that should have been addressed in pieces, over time, and with consistency. I have a real hard time buying quick fixes. I also have a hard time believing that serious problems can really be solved at a weekend clinic.

:runninghorse2:


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## Smilie

WestCoasted said:


> Now wait, you fellers, hold it!
> You went and over-sold it!
> I guarantee that what you have there won't compare
> For the very most important ingredient
> Can't be added or done expedient
> And it's quality, friends and neighbors, quality and care!
> 
> 
> IMO...I have a problem with the speed he trains. For example, the TWH video. There were multiple issues with that mare that should have been addressed in pieces, over time, and with consistency. I have a real hard time buying quick fixes. I also have a hard time believing that serious problems can really be solved at a weekend clinic.
> 
> :runninghorse2:



Yes, but that is what all of these NH horse trainers produce at those clinics, even though they might train at a slower speed at home.
That goes for Buck Brahaman, Parelli and any other NH trainer putting on those clinics, and follows right through on those colt starting clinics
You certainly don't start a colt in three days, then ride them through a course at all gaits, swing ropes off them and drag a log, after three days of training, and most of those trainers that compete in colt starting clinics admit that
Ditto tot hose NH trainers, putting on clinics, to 'fix' problem horses
Reality check of what you are seeing!


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## Kaifyre

CA freely admits that when the cameras are off, that's not the end of the training. I've watching many videos where he says something like "I'm doing this now, for the cameras, but if the cameras were off I'd spend a whole lesson leading up to this" or "I'm gonna show you the next step even though ideally this horse would need a couple days of this step" etc etc. He (and other moviemaking trainers) only has 30 minutes or an hour to show you what to do to fix your particular problem. Is the problem fixed at the end of the lesson? No. But they have shown you the steps you need to take to get there. A lot of people think that the horse is "cured" after a weekend clinic or a 30 minute lesson, but what they need to realize is that the "cure" will only be achieved after putting in the work. They're just showing you how to get there.

-- Kai


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## WestCoasted

*TL;DR Just hire a trainer, it'll cost the same*

People believe what they see and they see a man solve problems in a single session. They see a horse blow up, then get corrected and come out better than before. CA has the skills, timing, and intestinal fortitude to do this very well . Most people don't and that's dangerous. 

I don't believe that any physical skill (ballet, karate, twerking) can be learned effectively through videos. Add a half-ton animal into the mix and things get hairy.

I agree that this is an industry-wide problem. I bring this up here because CA is a very active part of that industry. My view of the industry covers him as well.

Bottom Line: If somebody has a problem and $400-$600 to spend, I will advise then to grab a couple sessions with a reputable trainer. Every time, any day.


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## WestCoasted

*Revenue Swirling in the Other Direction*

This is about CA as a person, not his training techniques, so take it with a grain of salt or just skip it altogether.
So I saw the rant video and started to wonder what was going on under his Stetson. Much like a blow up in a horse this was the result of a couple stress factors, exacerbated by a constant low level irritation. The low level irritation is the criticisms of his training technique and ability. His divorce was definitely a contributing factor, but I don't believe it was the root cause. 
His revenues have been slipping pretty hard over the last couple years. This is partly due to the overall economy, but mostly due to technology and competition. 
Video sales have the highest profit margin and comprise the largest chuck of his revenue stream. YouTube and other file sharing sites (legal or illegal) have made it much easier for people to watch his videos with out paying. Like many other artists, piracy has also affected his earnings. 
You tube has provided a huge open forum for any trainer to post free videos of their training techniques, good, bad, or otherwise. It's a free cornucopia of trainers producing the same results in the same situations. You can even find one with an accent. It would be difficult for anyone to compete in that environment.
CA is doing what he's always done. He's producing great horses(his view), and teaching people how. It's what made him famous, made his fortune, and what he's built his life around. Now, it's not enough. 
The invisible monster of progress is consuming his livelihood. He's constantly under pressure to produce more, better, unique videos and techniques to attract new fans. 
On top of "getting his heart ripped out through his wallet" (paraphrasing Robin Williams), he's pressured to out perform, worried about his future, and criticized for for his craft. That's enough to get anybody down.
I still think the hissy fit was entirely inappropriate, but I understand how he got to that point.


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## Joel Reiter

WestCoasted said:


> I don't believe that any physical skill (ballet, karate, twerking) can be learned effectively through videos.


I learned to how to throw knives by reading a book when I was 10. I learned how to throw somebody that outweighed me by 40 pounds over my shoulder by reading a book when I was 12. I learned how to use a six-beat kick to allow me to swim across a lake using the freestyle stroke by reading a book. That was before YouTube and DVDs existed. I don't know what your definition of "effectively" is, but those were things I couldn't do before I read how, and things I learned to do by reading. And a picture is truly worth a thousand words.



WestCoasted said:


> Bottom Line: If somebody has a problem and $400-$600 to spend, I will advise then to grab a couple sessions with a reputable trainer. Every time, any day.


I don't think I could disagree with you more. I spent $600 on a trainer and he did a great job and he solved a major problem. When I ran into the next problem he was gone. All the books and all the DVDs and all the demonstrations I have attended haven't cost me $600 and now I solve the problems myself.

Westcoasted, I'll agree with you that for some people buying DVDs is a waste of money. But for me and my horse it was transformational and I highly recommend that others try it.


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## Change

I read, I watch... but I learn by doing. Having had horses most of my life, most of what I know how to do is stuff I figured out on my own or by having a more experienced horse-person walk me through it - not a professional trainer - just some old guy who knew more than me. I still read and watch TV and YouTube, and I might try a bit of this and a bit of that - but in the end, what works for me is what works for ME on MY horses (and it's different for each of them).


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## loosie

I don't understand how you can ask for facts & not opinions. It's all opinions IM... O!

I think the basics of his training is the same as many others who teach a 'recipe' approach, for people to learn. I think he's very similar to Parelli(well, early Parelli... I get the feeling Pat's fallen off his own bandwagon a bit these days...) I do agree with - and use - these 'basics' myself. I don't like/agree with how confrontational these approaches can often be though, to get those basics achieved. How little empathy & consideration & understanding there appears to be. 

Eg. CA 'roundpenning' a wild/fearful horse, causing it to be so afraid as to try to jump out. Purposefully aiming to cause a horse to flee from a human in fear. Explaining that you WANT to terrify the animal, because "the more you frighten him, the quieter he will become". I do understand how these methods effectively work on the animal, but I don't agree with them, or believe they're the most effective way to train. 

I agree with the *theory* of 'ask, tell, demand', and that you should aim to be as gentle as possible but be prepared to be as firm as necessary'. I just don't believe you need to 'demand' or get 'firm' to anywhere near the degree he does, as a rule.


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## loosie

Joel Reiter said:


> Westcoasted, I'll agree with you that for some people buying DVDs is a waste of money. But for me and my horse it was transformational and I highly recommend that others try it.


I think it depends what sort of a 'mind' you have and what sort of other knowledge/experience you approach new stuff with as to what you do/don't get out of it. 

I will freely admit that when I was relatively new to horses(well, not at all really, but to 'horsemanship') & still a teen, discovering Parelli was a MAJOR plus for me & my horse. But in hindsight, as good as I thought it was at the time, there are so many things I did/believed, that with more knowledge & understanding, I cringe at the thought of. No. 1 thing was being 'fanatical' about it, approaching it as a 'recipe' - as he sold it, without understanding of the whys or wherefores.

Whether you learn from vids, books, hands on trainer... my advice is to not accept without question, not quit learning from other sources, even contradictory ones. At the end of the day, IMHO, I haven't found one single person who I agree 100% with, but I have learned SO much, from so many, even if it's what not to do - that's valuable too. Approach all information with a critical, analytical mind.

It's not the unanswered questions, but the unquestioned answers that can be the most dangerous!


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## jgnmoose

I think the trick with any of these people is to separate the marketing from the things that work. It is in their interest to have you believe that if you do it exactly as they teach it, you will get the same results. That is the product, and why they refer to it as "the method" and similar terminology.

If you went to an Olympic Lifting coach and didn't follow their plan exactly including meals and sleep do you know what they would say? "You aren't doing the program!"

There are two television horsemen that I personally like because it seems more down to earth. That said, I have heard C. Anderson in his own words say he doesn't care who people follow, the important thing is that they stick with something and go through the process to learn horsemanship. 

I think what you get most out of these programs is learning to think like a horse and a trainer. I solved a problem with my Mare that isn't on a DVD, but I did that with knowledge collected from all sources including some of these professional clinicians. 

Horses are individuals, that is where any 'method' is going to start unraveling if you haven't taken the time to learn how to adapt. Anything you learn from these people is a blueprint. 

For example the Mare I mentioned gets bored and her mind wanders to her friends. One of the things I learned that CA got me started on is how to get and keep her attention. This horse is so great to work with when she is paying attention and working, she learns so fast and so clearly wants to do what you ask. If you just sort of 'dabble' at something though she'll completely ignore you.


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## Change

Having had and been around horses for a good portion of my life, I sort of smile when some of these youngsters (i.e. CA) claim to have "invented" a method I learned and was employing with my horses before he was born. As was said above, though, there is no such thing as a _complete method_, start to finish, that will work with Every Horse, Every Time.

Understanding how horses think is vital. Knowing which horses will respond to a little firm correction vs which will completely implode/explode is another. My current colt is a great self-learner. I generally introduce him to something new and ignore him for a bit and he 'gets over it.' My mare, though, she wants me there to support her through the scary stuff. It all comes down to the horse and using what works ON THAT HORSE. Unfortunately, no one makes money with that "method," on TV, DVDs, etc!


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## Foxhunter

People want quick fixes and he can do that.


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## Change

But quick fixes only work if the owner continues to reinforce it. How many people take a horse home after a quick fix, by any trainer, then go back to coddling, cuddling and the horse is a mess again in a month?


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## bsms

I've gotten a lot out of Harry Chamberlin's books. He literally wrote the book for the US Cavalry, went to the Olympics multiple times, was the team captain twice, etc. He also wrote for a beginner. I've gotten a lot of good help from his writings.

But he also looked down on western riders, and I ride western. He believed every rider should ride with constant contact, and I rarely use contact for more than a few seconds. 60 seconds of contact is a long time, to me. And my western saddle doesn't allow me to ride quite the way he said to ride.

But so what? I still reread his books sometimes, looking for ideas. And many of the things I do is founded on his advice.

I don't like how CA rides, and I don't like his basic approach to horses, but I've seen some of what he teaches work with Mia and Bandit. It never hurts to have a big bag of tricks, so that when one option fails, you can try option 2 or 3 or 4. I just wish some of the DVD trainers would teach principles, and then show some options, versus trying to sell The Method. That was what I liked about the Chris Irwin videos I saw when I first started. He didn't say, "Here is how to train a horse". It was, "Watch how the horse responds to X. Now watch how he responds to Y and Z. Which do you want?"

But I'm glad the video trainers exist. Outside the big cities in Arizona, good luck finding a "trainer", let alone a "barn", where you can get help! There are good trainers out there, but one guy I met started following CA because CA was so much gentler than the local trainers he met.



Change said:


> But quick fixes only work if the owner continues to reinforce it. How many people take a horse home after a quick fix, by any trainer, then go back to coddling, cuddling and the horse is a mess again in a month?


Some people will always stink at riding horses. Others will get better if given a chance. No one can help the former. The latter can be helped by video trainers (and books).


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## Foxhunter

I agree about the quick fix. 

What most people lack is the understanding of the importance of timing and consistency. It can be hard work to start but in the long run pays great dividends.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Foxhunter said:


> I agree about the quick fix.
> 
> What most people lack is the understanding of the importance of timing and consistency. It can be hard work to start but in the long run pays great dividends.


Agree, and in addition, in order to have timing, you have to have feel and that only develops with time.


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## tinyliny

time, AND perceptiveness. which means, you need to watch, observe, 'see' the horse that is in front of you. if you are busy ticking your way down the 'steps' in the recipe of horse training, you won't see the horse itself.


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## jaydee

They could save themselves a lot of time and stress and money by buying a decent horse to start with.
I've known lots of new to horses people, many of them children, that kissed, coddled and were generally easy going with the horses they bought, frequently 'made it up as they went along' and never had an ounce of trouble in all the long years they owned them because they didn't start out with a problem
Just a thought.


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## Smilie

Any trainer that puts on clinics in dealing with problem horses, uses quick fixes, because people don't go to those clinics to hear about any detailed training program, but to see results- now.
I don't care if that trainer is Parelli, CA or even Buck Branaham, and goes right back to people like professor Beerly
Some of his methods would make CA look like a lamb, dealing with problem horses!


Beery - Horse Training Resources ? Horse Riding and Training

I quite agree that the way many horse owners now handle their horses, creates the need for people like CA in the first place, to help a tleast some of those people from getting killed, having created horses with no respect, and horses that have become dangerous.


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## Wallaby

jaydee said:


> I've known lots of new to horses people, many of them children, that kissed, coddled and were generally easy going with the horses they bought, frequently 'made it up as they went along' and never had an ounce of trouble in all the long years they owned them because they didn't start out with a problem
> Just a thought.


Just to throw a proverbial wrench in here: is it really only because they had a good horse to begin with, or could it be a case of okay-minded horse PLUS, on the human's part, perceptiveness and good timing?

I work with kids and most kids seem to have a natural feel for timing and are usually pretty perceptive. Life can train it out of them, I've seen it happen repeatedly, but most kids start out with good "feel" - in my opinion. 

My personal theory is that if you're naturally perceptive, maybe a kinesthetic learner (learn by doing), and have "feel" (not nessicarily good timing, though that's helpful, but the understanding of "this is bad" "this is good" before getting in too deep), you don't need to know *that* much about horses for it to go ok/well for you.

You might not ever do crazy high-level anything, but you probably won't get killed and your horse will probably be pretty well behaved.

I could go into "Anecdotes With Emily" mode here, but I'll spare everybody today. :lol:


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## bsms

^^^ No "love" button, so I used "like"...


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## jaydee

I don't know Wallaby but you could have a point
Because my Grandfather was a bit of a compulsive horse/pony buyer, then most of my youth was spent hanging out at a riding school/dealer/competition yard then worked in a couple of riding schools and then a breeding/hunting/competing/livery yard followed by my own similar enterprises I've had dealings with a LOT of different horses and ponies and people and on the whole there were very few really bad ones and most of the owners and handlers were pretty easy going with them, I'm pretty easy going myself and can't say that I've ever had a horse that started out good suddenly decide to take advantage of that
There are so many good horses about that I would struggle to want to spend time and money now on a truly aggressive one unless it was really talented in some way


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## Smilie

Horses are'\t born knowing politically correct responses to human requests.horses learn by repetition, by having the right thing, far as we are concerned, made easy and rewarded,m and the wrong thing hard and at times , made uncomfortable.
Thus, most problem horses are man made. If you don't lead, the horse will-it is his very nature. However, once a horse has gotten that 'disrespect/negative behavior, far as what is best for our interests, then you have to convince the horse otherwise , which takes stronger measures, then never letting the horse learn those bad behaviors in the first place.
For the most part, we have better minded horses today, then in the past, far as a generality. We no longer need to make every horse useful, by whatever means, as was sometimes done in the past, so I agree that the horse, truly born with a poor mind, is rare, and most problem horses are man made
However, if a horse has learned he can charge a person, run over him, as at feeding time, versus a horse that is just aggressive and charges anyone in his field, does not really matter, because the end results can be the same
Sorry, someone has created such a horse, often by treating that horse like a big pet, and the horse, through no fault of his own, has learned some dangerous behavior, that unless fixed, is going to get someone seriously hurt
That mis handling, often also makes that horse fall into the 'un wanted group of horses-horses that wind up with slaughter their final destination, either because of a direct result of their learned vise, or because they are un wanted by the average horse person
Horses don't wind up in clinics put on by CA and others, because they are a trusted family member, a 'good citizen, an equine partner , but because someone messed that horse up


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## Smilie

I think we have more good minded horses today, but we also have more problem horses today, often created by too little work, little expectations and handling by more people that never had a chance to grow up with horses, understand them, thus treat them with respect for the being that they are, and instead want to just 'join up, bond with the horse. expecting that 'love' on their part, to be reciprocated by the horse, with respect then just falling into place, and horsey willingly working for them, chosing them over their equine partners, thus barn sour and herd sour never rearing it;s ugly head, to just wait for praise and a treat, instead of considering that human their person vending machine, ect, ect, ect
Sometime, plain, clear lessons in horse sense, is required. Yes, this is best achieved through experience, lessons, ,but for those not fortunate enough to have the former, then people like CA just might save the day for them. That is the audience targeted by all these NH trainers, so if you are not in that segment, why be so concerned about any of these NH trainers, whose focus is to teach the entry level person some basic horse sense? I don't get it-truly!!!!


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## tinyliny

@Wallaby: I think I hear a radio program, on NPR . . . . "Anecdotes With Emily"


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## jgnmoose

I've recently watched several hours of CA's horsemanship 101 and Groundwork videos borrowed from a friend. These are probably older ones, from a few years ago at least by the looks of him and the style of the video.

I didn't see any "quick fixes" in those videos. Both are very practical, and not implying I'm an expert but nothing seemed like a gimmick or trick. The info was pretty solid in my opinion. 

I can't speak with any knowledge on his newer stuff, although I have noticed that he refers to it as "The Method", which he was not doing at the time of the videos I mentioned above. 

There are definitely "bad" horses. A 5 year old Gedling that I am aware of is just ****ed all the time. He is in training with a lady who shows Arabians professionally all over the country and she hasn't been able to do much with him. Just a very angry horse, unwilling to try or learn anything. There probably is someone who could work some magic on him, he is a beautiful dapple gray Arabian with an almost perfect look, or I think the owners would have given up on him already.


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## Smilie

I agree that there are some poor minded horses, not necessarily ****y,but just remain stupid and over reactive
Many of them, not all, are halter bred. There is a relationship, as many halter horses at upper end are never ridden, thus the mind is not tested, as to work under saddle. No different then other species, like dogs, where the RCMP here, had to import German Sheppards from Germany, for some time, as the German Shepard over here had just been shown in hand type classes, versus being used as working dogs
I owned a halter bred stallion on top (Crimson War ) and race bred on the bottom ( Go Man GO )
He has ability, looks, ect, but he was 'hot'. If you rode the crap out of him, you could win a broad range of classes. If not, he would look like a horse that never saw a trail course or had ridden a reining pattern.. Out west, he was scary to ride.
I gelded him, and even then he was never an easy horse to ride. 
Many Arabian halter horses are very similar.
Breeds where halter is not an entity onto itself, at upper end, don't have this problem
At one time, halter was meant to identify future athletic ability, and those horses went on to ride
Then, halter became a specialized class onto itself, with the 'form to function', both mind wise, and ability to work and stay sound, never tested
I learned not to breed to halter horses, esp after that stallion. Don't know if that is the problem of the horse you are referring to,jgnmoose, as I don't know how that Arabian is bred
At any rate, not to be too repetitive, I certainly would not pick CA as a mentor for reining, but I do believe his common no nonsience approach to horsemanship, serves a purpose to those learning general safe horse handling
People new to horses hardly ever fall into the too strong, boarding abusive horse handling, but rather into the class of not establishing clear boundaries enough-boundaries that help to keep them safe, and thus enjoy a partnership with a hrose


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## jgnmoose

Smilie said:


> I think we have more good minded horses today, but we also have more problem horses today, often created by too little work, little expectations and handling by more people that never had a chance to grow up with horses, understand them, thus treat them with respect for the being that they are, and instead want to just 'join up, bond with the horse. expecting that 'love' on their part, to be reciprocated by the horse, with respect then just falling into place, and horsey willingly working for them, chosing them over their equine partners, thus barn sour and herd sour never rearing it;s ugly head, to just wait for praise and a treat, instead of considering that human their person vending machine, ect, ect, ect
> Sometime, plain, clear lessons in horse sense, is required. Yes, this is best achieved through experience, lessons, ,but for those not fortunate enough to have the former, then people like CA just might save the day for them. That is the audience targeted by all these NH trainers, so if you are not in that segment, why be so concerned about any of these NH trainers, whose focus is to teach the entry level person some basic horse sense? I don't get it-truly!!!!


My mare will do anything you ask and try her heart out, all you have to do is keep her busy and give her a job to do. If you let her be in charge, you might end up getting pitched over the fence as she runs to be with her friends.

She is young still and has plenty of kinks to work out, but I trust her and she is a really hard worker. 

What you said is very true. Being realistic not just about horses, but about horse personalities is an important step in this game. Hopefully I am not mis-paraphrasing you.


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## Joel Reiter

bsms said:


> Outside the big cities in Arizona, good luck finding a "trainer", let alone a "barn", where you can get help! There are good trainers out there, but one guy I met started following CA because CA was so much gentler than the local trainers he met.


Yeah, this is exactly the problem I have with people who pan the clinicians and say spend your money on a trainer. You're paying for the trainer to pick up your horse and board him, or you're paying time and mileage for the trainer to come to you. If you board your horse, you might be limited to the trainers associated with that barn. If you're very lucky, and the trainer you pick doesn't screw up your horse or abuse it, your horse will learn something, but you probably won't. Because trainers who know how to train are rare enough, but trainers who know how to explain are scarce as unicorns.

Anybody can call themselves a trainer, a riding instructor or a farrier. Most of them aren't qualified. I'll take my chances with the DVD.


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## DressageOrBust

jaydee said:


> They could save themselves a lot of time and stress and money by buying a decent horse to start with.
> I've known lots of new to horses people, many of them children, that kissed, coddled and were generally easy going with the horses they bought, frequently 'made it up as they went along' and never had an ounce of trouble in all the long years they owned them because they didn't start out with a problem
> Just a thought.



THIS EXACTLY! I have seen this so many times that people tend to just get over-horsed. But, when I bought my mare I knew exactly what I was getting and only bought her because she was cheap, had great bloodlines, and was drop dead gorgeous. I knew from the get go she'd be problems and had planned to work on that. I liked Clinton's method for sacking out and it worked really great with my mare using the stick and string. Now she's way less reactive to things, before you would spit and she'd freak out over the sound and she'd mow anything and anyone over to get away from a plastic bag crinkle! Now she completely tolerates plastic bags and random weird noises and different flying things. Everything I do around my horses is big, I never tip toe so I am constantly swinging something or making noises or banging on something. My neighbors must think I am a nutter!  Anyway, since it's harvest season she's having to get used to flying squash! She loves to eat them so I throw them in the pen, not at her, but near her and she's gotten really good about not freaking out over it. The first time I thought she was going to jump the panel to get away from the scary squash. Now she tries to bite them out of the air!! LOL


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## Joel Reiter

jaydee said:


> They could save themselves a lot of time and stress and money by buying a decent horse to start with.


Yes! And so many problems are caused by buying a three-year old when a horse that is 20 would be so much better as a place to start.


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## Smilie

yes, on the decent horse, esp for kids or people new to horses, but those same people expect you to sell such ahorse for the same price as agreen horse, neverrealizing/accepting, that the cheapest part of owning ahorse, is often the purchase price.
They go to rescues, all breed auctions an dbuy that cheap special-sometimes they get lucky.
One of my favorite example, is the phone call I once got.
Person wanted to buy a black and white Appaloosa that anyone could ride, but did not need the papers (ie, want well broke nice looking hrose cheap )
I asked them as to what price they were looking at.\
Reply was around $1,000 to $1,500.
Told them the local all breed horse sale was the coming Sat, at Innisfail, just north of us.


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## jaydee

The silly thing is that when you factor in the cost of looking after a horse properly that cheap horse with all its problems can end up costing you more than if you'd saved the money you'd spend looking after it for a year or two plus extra trainer fees or the cost of all these DVD packages you can buy you could spend that money on a nice well made horse - OK it wouldn't take you to the Olympics but it would give you years of good safe pleasure out on the trails and around local shows
Buying a nice youngster is OK if you have the experience to bring it on yourself or the money to spend on trainers to help you but even then the emphasis has to be on 'nice' and the decision to buy it shouldn't be made on how cheap or free something is
I know we always get the success stories dragged out when anyone makes a comment like this but I'd hazard a guess that there are actually far more failures, accidents and heartbreak than there are happy faces.


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## bsms

Hindsight is always better. But the reality is that a lot of people DO exactly what I did - buy a horse who they were told was "perfect for a beginner". And others buy a horse who IS a fine horse...with the right owner. But a few months later, their horse is now spoiled and becoming a problem.

So they need help. Where I live, the majority of "horse trainers" aren't worth a bucket of warm spit. Heck, I got a lot of advice here on HF from supposedly experienced people who told me all I needed to do was whip Mia harder...

I recently watched a CA video. The horse owner was supposedly a 'trainer' with years of experience, but who was afraid of the horse she had been brought to train. Frankly, it was becoming dangerous because she was backing down any time the horse challenged the boundaries. The horse was, in effect, being trained to attack a human by the incompetence of this supposed 'horse trainer'!

Clinton Anderson did a good job, and also discussed both setting boundaries and rewarding the try. I liked the way he talked about letting the horse relax when doing well, and showing the horse that the human could be tough but could also be fun to be around.

Quite a few new owners, including people who have spent a few years riding lesson horses in an arena, have problems like that. They nag instead of correct, and start training the horse to do the wrong thing. Someone like CA can teach them, by video example, how to correct instead of nag...and how to reward a horse who is starting to get it right.

A lady I know bought a well behaved ranch horse. She had a couple of years of riding experience with lesson horses. The ranch horse was fine until he realized his owner was a little afraid of him. A few months later, the well-behaved ex-ranch horse bucked her off. She quit riding entirely. Sold the 2 horses they owned and stopped.

To be honest, THAT horse may have been TOO experienced for her!

We got our little 13 hand BLM mustang as an ex-lesson horse. The first ride here, he tried to intimidate both my DIL and then me by galloping wildly around our arena. It wasn't until he realized he could go out with 'the big horses' on a trail ride that the level-headed, steady and competent trail horse emerged. He's a great little horse. My wife is learning to ride by riding him on trails (and off trails). She adores him! But I'd pity a new owner who bought that experienced little horse for their kid with beginning dressage in mind! That poor guy was totally burnt out on arena riding.

No one starts off knowing what to do. After 8 years, I often am uncertain of the best approach to take. I also suspect a lot of former lesson horses or ranch horses are more inclined to take advantage of a newer rider than a green horse is. Regardless, I think the DVDs trainers (and the folks who wrote the books on my shelves) have a lot to offer a new rider.


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## jgnmoose

bsms said:


> Hindsight is always better. But the reality is that a lot of people DO exactly what I did - buy a horse who they were told was "perfect for a beginner". And others buy a horse who IS a fine horse...with the right owner. But a few months later, their horse is now spoiled and becoming a problem.
> 
> So they need help. Where I live, the majority of "horse trainers" aren't worth a bucket of warm spit. Heck, I got a lot of advice here on HF from supposedly experienced people who told me all I needed to do was whip Mia harder...
> 
> I recently watched a CA video. The horse owner was supposedly a 'trainer' with years of experience, but who was afraid of the horse she had been brought to train. Frankly, it was becoming dangerous because she was backing down any time the horse challenged the boundaries. The horse was, in effect, being trained to attack a human by the incompetence of this supposed 'horse trainer'!
> 
> Clinton Anderson did a good job, and also discussed both setting boundaries and rewarding the try. I liked the way he talked about letting the horse relax when doing well, and showing the horse that the human could be tough but could also be fun to be around.
> 
> Quite a few new owners, including people who have spent a few years riding lesson horses in an arena, have problems like that. They nag instead of correct, and start training the horse to do the wrong thing. Someone like CA can teach them, by video example, how to correct instead of nag...and how to reward a horse who is starting to get it right.
> 
> A lady I know bought a well behaved ranch horse. She had a couple of years of riding experience with lesson horses. The ranch horse was fine until he realized his owner was a little afraid of him. A few months later, the well-behaved ex-ranch horse bucked her off. She quit riding entirely. Sold the 2 horses they owned and stopped.
> 
> To be honest, THAT horse may have been TOO experienced for her!
> 
> We got our little 13 hand BLM mustang as an ex-lesson horse. The first ride here, he tried to intimidate both my DIL and then me by galloping wildly around our arena. It wasn't until he realized he could go out with 'the big horses' on a trail ride that the level-headed, steady and competent trail horse emerged. He's a great little horse. My wife is learning to ride by riding him on trails (and off trails). She adores him! But I'd pity a new owner who bought that experienced little horse for their kid with beginning dressage in mind! That poor guy was totally burnt out on arena riding.
> 
> No one starts off knowing what to do. After 8 years, I often am uncertain of the best approach to take. I also suspect a lot of former lesson horses or ranch horses are more inclined to take advantage of a newer rider than a green horse is. Regardless, I think the DVDs trainers (and the folks who wrote the books on my shelves) have a lot to offer a new rider.


All of this. 

People might not be big fans of CA for one reason or another. I think some people don't like him because of the high production value on his branding and marketing.

I find him to be pretty candid about whatever he is talking about. He shares a lot of information in a short time. He might be pretty average compared to his Road to the Horse peers like Craig Cameron and Chris Cox at the actual horsemanship part. What he is clearly better at is communicating the knowledge that green riders/owners need.

I've only seen his older DVDs from probably about 10 years ago, and the videos series he has on Youtube about training Titan and that Rescue horse he was going to put through his program and give away. 

I'm very lucky to live in a place where you can access the top people in Reining, Cutting, and Team Roping within an hour drive. That is a whole other post, but you don't just go train with whomever here either once you are plugged in. There are "Cliques" so to speak, and with the best will in the world towards them, many have a great big chip on their shoulder about other trainers except their friends.

If I were tasked with finding a green rider a good horse I'd look for that "Born Broke" type of horse. Nothing really bothers them, and they don't have any bad habits. Most of the horses I've seen like this are Geldings about 8 yrs old or older and have a huge amount of experience working and being hauled all over. I've seen a couple of Mares as well that were just perfect. More than training what I see is experience, they like people and they like being ridden. You aren't going to find something like that here for less than about $5500 though, usually closer to $8500 and up because everybody wants one.


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## reiningtrainers

Watch the video - read the article and it says it all. His attitude toward people is the same as horses. NRHA?s newest unofficial ambassador: Clinton Anderson - Reining Trainers


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## Hondo

Simon of Athens, 460 BC: Anything forced and misunderstood can never be beautiful. If a dancer were forced to dance by whip and spike the dancer would be no more beautiful than a horse trained under similar circumstances.

Xenophon of Athens, 354 BC. Greek general, historian, student of Socrates, and noted horseman. A quoted line from his tiny book, The Art of Horsemanship, is in my signature.

And these guys were NOT sissies. They rode hot little stallions bareback into combat where they depended upon their horses for their very lives.

If they were around, I think they could teach Clint a thing or two. And I'm pretty d***** certain where Clint would be in the pecking order


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## jgnmoose

reiningtrainers said:


> Watch the video - read the article and it says it all. His attitude toward people is the same as horses. NRHA?s newest unofficial ambassador: Clinton Anderson - Reining Trainers


I read your link and skimmed your site, hyper-sensitive nonsense. 

You are cherry picking remarks and making them into something they aren't. 

Almost every horse trainer of any renown over the past 50 years has practiced their own version of Tom Dorrance's "See how little it takes, but be prepared to do whatever it takes". 

People who don't correct their horses and are ineffective at training them are Clinton Anderson's primary customer. They are also why there are unwanted horses headed for the killer trucks every weekend at sale barns across the country.


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## Hondo

It's hard for me to believe that Tom Dorrance would support CA.

Pasted below is an excerpt of a discussion of Tom Dorrance by a person who knew him well.



" Tom sees horses as equals. That is, Tom doesn't believe his being human gives him any metaphysical superiority over any horse. To him, horses have as much right to their being as he does to his-- no more, no less, just equal. He treats them the way a very considerate and fair-minded gentleman would treat his equal. He grants them a basic being-to-being respect. 

To people who have cultural expectations similar to those of Tom and many of the older Westerners, this description will mean a lot. To others, whose cultural expectations are more combative, particularly in their relationships with their family and friends, this won't convey what I mean. Once when he was helping me work with a horse, he asked me to do something-- I don't remember what now-- then cautioned me, "Don't insult her, just ask." The kind of respect that Tom gives horses is characterized by kindness and informality. It involves carefully avoiding surprises and it always involves leaving a horse its sense of dignity. "


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## Smilie

While it is nice to quote these historic horsemen, we have never seen them actually ride or train, plus their peers used some pretty harsh bits in those days-bits with prongs against the outside of the mouth, so what was a considered, 'gentle/mild int hose days, might be way different today
The idea that things were always better in the past, is flawed, and what was considered mild treatment of horses in those days, would not pass muster today
Also, horses used hard, day in and day out, riding to battle, not benefiting from the nutritional programs we have today, are going to be 'broke' from those long hours or regular work.
Today, we have performance horses , expected to work flawlessly, with perhaps an hour of training a day
I think CA does not approach a horse in anger, just with clear boundaries of expectation
Yes, he is not riding those horses into battle, but he is showing them in a wide range of activities-horses not worn down by days and days of long work and many miles


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## Smilie

Look, no one in the reining industry is going to take CA seriously, as they are aware of who is who in that industry, and CA is far from being the only bad rep of reining, just happens to have a larger audience
I know of a local reining trainer that has crippled many horses, blown their mind-, broke the leg of a three year old, in the warm up, at the NRHA futurity, yet he still has customers, and he is not unique, nor even in the same league as some of these trainers, that truly are abusive-so lets get off the Titan thread!
CA s basic audience is, and remains entry level people, often those that have either created problem horses, or bought them, and who are in danger of becoming seriously hurt, not knowing how to create a horse that is respectful and a 'good citizen'

I found a very good article, in my opinion, that goes into the firm as needed, explained very well, while remaining fair

As Firm as Necessary


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## jgnmoose

Hondo said:


> It's hard for me to believe that Tom Dorrance would support CA.
> 
> Pasted below is an excerpt of a discussion of Tom Dorrance by a person who knew him well.
> 
> 
> 
> " Tom sees horses as equals. That is, Tom doesn't believe his being human gives him any metaphysical superiority over any horse. To him, horses have as much right to their being as he does to his-- no more, no less, just equal. He treats them the way a very considerate and fair-minded gentleman would treat his equal. He grants them a basic being-to-being respect.
> 
> To people who have cultural expectations similar to those of Tom and many of the older Westerners, this description will mean a lot. To others, whose cultural expectations are more combative, particularly in their relationships with their family and friends, this won't convey what I mean. Once when he was helping me work with a horse, he asked me to do something-- I don't remember what now-- then cautioned me, "Don't insult her, just ask." The kind of respect that Tom gives horses is characterized by kindness and informality. It involves carefully avoiding surprises and it always involves leaving a horse its sense of dignity. "


I can respect that CA and Tom Dorrance have very different personalities and speeds. Tom Dorrance is like a wizard who says things that take a long time to grasp. Wise words that stick with you and keep you humble, lessons you understand more the more you learn. CA is the guy who tells you when class starts, what professors to avoid, where to get a good cheap hot dinner and the best part of town to live in. Two different things. 

Mr. Dorrance came from a time where the people he was talking to could ride, and they could handle rank horses. The horse was an ATV, and a Cowboy was expected to handle a cold backed horse that tried to run them under the nearest tree. He built his reputation going to these ranches and teaching them how to make better horses. They didn't need him to start their colts, they let him because he had a better way. 

That is a completely different context from a first time adult rider getting in way over their head at the sale barn, mustang adoption etc. The very people CA has been selling useful information to that saves them an emergency room visit and saves the horse from going right back to the sale barn and worse.

In the several hours of the videos on Titan it is 98% bragging and praising. He corrects him a couple of times in an appropriate manner, little more than a thump here and a spur there and immediately back to praise and exercises. This was all taken completely out of context because CA is not a humble person, and he makes fun of "tree hugging idiots". He could have easily edited out anything that wasn't perfect and chose not to. Don't take my word for it, watch the videos on YouTube.

There is also this rescue horse series which is pretty decent. Other than product marketing I don't see anything in there that is anything other than a good reboot for this horse.


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## Hondo

Yes,improper respect and training of horses was as present in the past as it is today. And harsh bits are are still present today.

Xenophon did NOT use harsh bit nor harsh methods. He quoted Simon of Athens statement about training by whip and spike I quoted above.

Just because harsh methods do work, that does not dictate they are the best methods or that they will last the longest.

If I am faced with either suffering harsh treatment or doing someone's bidding, providing the bidding is less harsh, I will comply, until I can figure a way to escape.


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## jaydee

Actually I would say that CA's methods could put a lot of people into the ER 
He is dominating style of horseman, assertive, quick thinking, experienced and knows where to place himself to stay out of trouble anyone who tried to take on a truly challenging and aggressive horse that didn't possess those qualities and showed any sign of weakness or hesitation just for a few seconds would be toast.
I've seen clips of some of the people he's trying to train to imitate his style and the look like a bunch of feeble wet lettuces.


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## Hondo

I have only watched one CA video and I doubt I will ever take the time to watch more, but maybe.

The one I watched was the one where he was helping a self proclaimed trainer and encouraging her to make the horse think she was a crack addict.

I understand why he was doing that. But to many people, and quite possibly the person in the video, the interpretation was to "get mean and crazy".

The horse does not know what a crack addict is and never will.

What should have been calmly explained was that the lady was way over horsed and needed to either let someone with more experience and knowledge assume ownership of the horse or become knowledgeable in understanding the horse.

That the 3 second rule with this horse was more than enough time for the horse to decide he was in charge. Even a one second rule. The recognition and response to this horse's thoughts had to be almost instantaneous.

Clinton knew this. Clinton did this when the owner did not. The owner was confused and just did not really understand what was happening.

Clinton did of course understand. But he did not transfer that understanding to the owner. Why? Dunno, maybe it wouldn't have made good footage. It would have been a better track for the owner and the horse though, IMO. And provided results that would have lasted longer.

New owners of BLM rescues and others are, I agree, often doing much harm to horses. I also believe that over the long run, CA is doing much much more harm to horses and people.

I think much of the differences and disagreements in training come down to differences in world views, whatever that means, but whatever it is, it is deep rooted within each person.


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## Hondo

The concept of "As Firm As Necessary" will be taken home by most to simply up the physical ante until the servant complies.


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## bsms

"up the physical ante until the servant complies"

That would probably be more effective than nagging the servant while the servant ignores.

I watched the "crack addict" video. There are several, I think, since I've seen at least two. In both of those, CA also talked about giving release...but only AFTER the horse views the person as someone to take seriously. I try to work with my horses, but I also need to set boundaries which they will not cross without consequences.

There is a balance there, and that balance doesn't come easily to everyone. I cannot expect my HORSE to learn good judgment without sometimes showing some bad. Neither can I learn to be a good horseman without sometimes screwing up and making a mess of things. I also cannot learn if I always "get a trainer" the moment things go wrong!

But I'll add this - the most sensitive horses I've known have also been the most forgiving. I've screwed up less with Bandit than with Mia, but that is because I owned Mia for 7 years. But Bandit still needs to forgive me at times, and I still need to get on his case at times.

Most of the CA learners I've seen were folks who simply would not set boundaries for the horse. The last thing many of them needed was to be told, "Be gentler..."


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## jgnmoose

I've not seen the "Crack Addict" video. Nor have I seen anything irresponsible said by him. That said I've only watched two of his youtube video series (the ones mentioned above) and the older video series on ground work and horsemanship 101 from roughly 10 years ago that I've mentioned several times.

Those irresponsible/abuse videos might exist, feel free to link them for the benefit of conversation. They seem like the complete opposite type of information that I've seen. I'm not a Clinton Anderson "follower" personally, just commenting that I've personally not seen anything (well, maybe aggressive branding and sales) that raises a red flag. Most of what I've watched has been out of curiosity about why he is so controversial. 

I will say there is a whole lot more video footage of CA than your average well known clinician including his Road to the Horse peers. Personally I prefer the style of Craig Cameron and Chris Cox from that group, but neither has a fraction of the material or video footage available to watch as Clinton Anderson. If we each turned on the cameras and posted it on youtube we might not like the comment section.


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## jgnmoose

jaydee said:


> Actually I would say that CA's methods could put a lot of people into the ER
> He is dominating style of horseman, assertive, quick thinking, experienced and knows where to place himself to stay out of trouble anyone who tried to take on a truly challenging and aggressive horse that didn't possess those qualities and showed any sign of weakness or hesitation just for a few seconds would be toast.
> I've seen clips of some of the people he's trying to train to imitate his style and the look like a bunch of feeble wet lettuces.


The most fair criticism I've read recently and a good point.


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## jgnmoose

bsms said:


> "up the physical ante until the servant complies"
> 
> That would probably be more effective than nagging the servant while the servant ignores.
> 
> I watched the "crack addict" video. There are several, I think, since I've seen at least two. In both of those, CA also talked about giving release...but only AFTER the horse views the person as someone to take seriously. I try to work with my horses, but I also need to set boundaries which they will not cross without consequences.
> 
> There is a balance there, and that balance doesn't come easily to everyone. I cannot expect my HORSE to learn good judgment without sometimes showing some bad. Neither can I learn to be a good horseman without sometimes screwing up and making a mess of things. I also cannot learn if I always "get a trainer" the moment things go wrong!
> 
> But I'll add this - the most sensitive horses I've known have also been the most forgiving. I've screwed up less with Bandit than with Mia, but that is because I owned Mia for 7 years. But Bandit still needs to forgive me at times, and I still need to get on his case at times.
> 
> Most of the CA learners I've seen were folks who simply would not set boundaries for the horse. The last thing many of them needed was to be told, "Be gentler..."


Well said.


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## Smilie

Agree with Jgnmoose and BSMS

I think the concept of as firm as needed, is very well explained in that link.
It people take it wrong, it is their fault, same as getting stuck on 'as gentle as possible', ignoring the fact that if as 'gentle as possible is getting no response, or even dis respect from the horse, you go on to'as firm as needed'
We have no videos of Xenophon training, so to assume his feel, timing, release and reward were superior, is simply not so. He might have stood out among the majority of the time, when extremely harsh training methods were used, as all things are relative to the time they are compared to
You also have to differentiate approaching training with anger, where reasoning, release, reward go out the window, and being firm , getting the desired response, thus being effective, versus ineffective.
Our horses today are not used , for the most part as tools, where that horse power was needed to get the job done, whether working fields, going into battle, transportation, ect. In those days, everyone learned to use a horse to get the job done that needed to be done. Look back in history books, and there were some pretty harsh training methods, to make any horse useful asp
No chiro, massage, and a host of other things, and forget custom saddle fits.
Not good, certainly, but we have swung the other way, with people buying horses, never brought up where they were used day in and day out, thus imparted some 'horse sense'
Now we have people new to horses, getting in over their head, just wanting to bond with the horse, and if horsey should be less that good, immediately, there is a pain issue, not saying any pain issue should not be ruled out, but we must be breeding less sound horses able to stand up to work, then in the past!
I think the truth is somewhere in the middle-horses in the past, were expected to work, even when some pain issue should have been addressed, while today, any horse that acts up, is immediately in pain, when in many cases, what is lacking is wet saddle blankets and a fostered work ethic, with the right balance of' gentle as possible, but also firm as needed'.
Yes, some people using CA's techniques are going to get hurt, not because the techniques are wrong, but they lack the experience and timing. The horse should most likely be sent to a trainer, but point remains, these people want to learn to train that horse themselves


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## Textan49

jaydee said:


> Actually I would say that CA's methods could put a lot of people into the ER
> He is dominating style of horseman, assertive, quick thinking, experienced and knows where to place himself to stay out of trouble anyone who tried to take on a truly challenging and aggressive horse that didn't possess those qualities and showed any sign of weakness or hesitation just for a few seconds would be toast.
> I've seen clips of some of the people he's trying to train to imitate his style and the look like a bunch of feeble wet lettuces.



I can take the concepts of CA's methods and modify them for my own use. I am not a fan of his however,( but that doesn't mean anything.) The problem that I see with his (and several other's) videos is that people with experience can decide if imitating his methods is right for them and their horses while beginners often cannot.. It is a difficult situation for a beginner that may be limited in finding someone local to work with them but learning from a video can be hit or miss and dangerous at the worst


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## jaydee

I suppose I was too harsh when I referred to people being feeble wet lettuces - I've had people send horses to us for training which included on the ground handling and they were perfectly lovely folk but they were totally over horsed, out of their depth and drowning. Sometimes I wanted to grab hold of them and try to shake some energy up - like a bottle of fizzy drink - but you can't make anyone into something they aren't and these people are better off with a horse that's sweet and easy going and never going to dream of putting a foot out of place, horses like that deserve someone gentle around them.
There are naturally dominant people out there that are new to horses and you can train them, a friends daughter who used to ride for us was like that when she was 10 years old but never needed to get aggressive or forceful with a pony, she just had that quiet commanding way about her and still does. Too many trainers confuse being a dominate leader with being a bully or someone who uses cruel methods and they then pass that on to their students
The fast thinking thing is something you acquire from experience which is another reason why novices shouldn't really be around a horse that's going to put you in the ground if you can't think on your feet and always be a second ahead


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## Smilie

jaydee said:


> The fast thinking thing is something you acquire from experience which is another reason why novices shouldn't really be around a horse that's going to put you in the ground if you can't think on your feet and always be a second ahead


 Quite true, but how are you going to prevent that? There are no standards, tests, as to either horse ownership ability , before buying, nor attaching 'trainer, to a name


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## Carrie94

I have most of CA's DVDs. I don't consider myself a true "follower" of his but I definitely use his exercises with my horses, even though I may teach some things slightly differently. When I started his method, I was not inexperienced. I'd had horses for years but was searching for a better way to communicate and refine.

All emotional judgments aside, facts only - 

1. I found him to be very gentle with horses that did not understand but were trying. Proof is in the three method kits - the Fundamentals, Intermediate, and Advanced.

2. I found him to be very assertive with horses that understood the rules but were deliberately breaking them (yes, horses aren't necessarily the innocent of all innocent). I also found him to be very assertive when it came to horses that threatened the safety of the owners. Still, in either situation, still quick to reward the right answer.

3. What people are seeing in the Titan videos is a high-end performance horse being trained - who already understands his program. His commentary is more candid than some people appreciate, but from the performance videos I have of several other professional reining trainers (NOT clincians), the principles are very much the same.

4. If these horses were being forced to do something, they'd be tense and worried. I don't see any of that with the horses he trains. They are attentive, relaxed, and obedient. Obedience IS extremely important, because they're 1200lbs and can kill you without really realizing it. If you want a 1200lb animal with unpredictable tendencies, reactiveness, pushiness, etc, by all means.

5. He has a bold and honest personality. He's not afraid to tell you exactly what he thinks. Some people hate that, some people love that. He's real and doesn't hide things from you. I've learned more from his videos than I have from any other trainers combined. Some of the things he says people take literally, when in actuality he's just trying to get something across to people by using a strong example.

6. Where I find him lacking is in the relationship side of things. I use his exercises on my three horses and can give each horse plenty of attention and love - he's a busy guy and can't devote that much time to all of the horses he trains. Now, he DOES spend some friendly time with these horses in his training sessions with them, where he lets them air up and think, and he rubs on them and tells them what good horses they are, but, other than with his personal horse, he doesn't spend a lot of time just "hanging out" and "chilling" with them, something I love to do.

People are taking bits and pieces of what they've heard to make false assumptions. They do the same thing with the Bible. They do the same thing with everything, really. That's how rumors get started.

Honestly - don't just fall for everything you hear, and don't make assumptions and judgments before you know. Don't use emotion to judge someone.


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## Smilie

Very well thought out response, Carrie, I found myself nodding along !"


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## Hondo

On page 56 of the Art of Horsemanship, Xenophon again quotes Simon of Athens: "What a horse does under compulsion, he does blindly".

The choices are not limited to being a gentle nagger or a fire breathing dragon. From what I've read, no one could ever have been gentler than Tom Dorrance nor at the same time more effective.

It is purely impossible to respect a horse as a full and equal being as Tom Dorrance did and at the same time use the methods of CA.

Yes I understand, many want their horses to love them on the same basis as humans love one another. And they are hurt when they don't respond as they would have them. And things go downhill in a hurry.

But the answer, IMO, is not to suggest they be less or more gentler but rather to understand the mind of a horse that definitely bonds and has a "type" of affection perhaps, but not related to human affection. The entire relationship is so much different even though no less complex. THAT is what they need to be taught IMO. Not chastised for either nagging or being too gentle.


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## Carrie94

Hondo said:


> It is purely impossible to respect a horse as a full and equal being as Tom Dorrance did and at the same time use the methods of CA.


I do agree with this statement. However, I I don't see the horse as an equal. I adore my horses and treat them with the utmost respect, but they are _not_ my equal. When it comes to a choice between a human being and an animal, I choose the human. Animals are God's gift to people, but they are not equal to us. We are partners, we have a positive relationship, but there is a definite ranking in which I'm on top. Even horses don't consider themselves equals with each other. There has to be leadership.


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## bsms

A lot depends on the circumstances. I kept Mia even though she was dangerous for me. I adored her, and she was a genuinely sweet and willing horse...with some very deep-seated fears and almost no training when I got her. I was never one to back down from her, and she wasn't inclined to push me that way. She was my personal horse for 7 years. She taught me a lot, although not all of it was good. I still have a lot of fear inside that pops out at odd moments.

But the modern riding world has changed. Sports like reining and dressage are not going to make sense to a horse. There is nothing about the letter "E" that will tell a horse to change gaits, and I doubt any horse has ever seen any sense in doing spins. Many arena sports emphasize obedience instead of judgment because there is no room for the horse's judgment in riding a pattern. 

"_What a horse does under compulsion, he does blindly_"

That is only partially true. What a horse does under compulsion, he does blindly...*the first time*. But by doing it, repeatedly, the horse can learn it is OK to do it, and even enjoy it. Bandit's former owner took 4 hours of brutally hard work using CA's methods to get Mia to load into a trailer - the first time. The next day, it took him 20 minutes. After she rode to northern Arizona, flying along the highway without any energy from her...she decided horse trailers were fun. I'm told she will now hop in to the odd trailer, hoping for a ride.

If you can dominate a horse past scary things, then SOME horses will realize they keep going past scary things and nothing happens - and thus will learn to trust the human. Not all horses respond that way. Bandit was taught that way, using CA methods, by his previous owner. At 7 years old, with many hundreds of miles on him, he hadn't learned to trust the human. So he'd go forward until he was too afraid, and then explode. He liked humans, but he didn't trust our judgment.

Since I don't like explosions, and am both smaller and weaker than his much younger previous owner, I took a different approach. And it has worked well - with Bandit. But my way is much slower, and many horses can learn the same thing faster the CA way.

The US Cavalry used very dominant methods to teach a horse to do these things:


















​
I don't want my horses to willingly do those things...but the end goal of the cavalry was to start with strict obedience and end up with a very confident and WILLING horse. IIRC, and I may not, Harry Whitney said something along the lines of 'Sometimes a horse has to do something before he knows he can do something'.

A dominant approach won't work with every horse. My farrier loves mules, in part because he says a dominant approach never works with mules - you either compromise, or end up with an animal waiting to kill you. I don't know if that is true, but that is why my farrier loves mules.

But even in my riding, there is dominance. I just choose to have a few rules and then strictly enforce those few rules. Others choose to have more. And some say this is the best approach:

"_Therefore, everywhere - out-of-doors or in the haute ecole - success with horses is to him who applies this maxim of Baucher...

'Let him think that he is our master, then he is our slave.' There dwells an eternal equestrian truth!

'The horse is the sole master of his forces; even with all of our vigor, by himself, the rider is powerless to increase the horse's forces. Therefor, it is for the horse to employ his forces in his own way, for himself to determine the manner of that employment so as to best fulfill the demands of his riders. If the rider tries to do it all, the horse may permit him to do so, but the horse merely drifts, and limits his efforts to those which the rider demands. On the contrary, if the horse knows that he must rely on himself, he uses himself completely, with all of his energy._'" - 5 May 1922 -- A diary entry quoted at the end of Horse Training Outdoors and High School, Etienne Beudant (1931) 

Perhaps it is a little cynical, but I think there is a lot of truth to this:

*"Let him think that he is our master, then he is our slave."*​ 
But that is for a horse who is allowed to have judgment, and for a rider who has the experience needed to give the horse freedom within constraints, tactfully. A rider like that probably won't need to watch a lot of NH trainer DVDs...:-?


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## Hondo

Carrie94 said:


> Animals are God's gift to people, but they are not equal to us.


This, I believe, is the basis for at least one of the gulfs that place different people at differing positions on horses and animals in general.

I was taught what is quoted but I simply no longer share this belief. Whatever fate lies ahead for me, I believe it is the same for the animal.

And there simply is no solution to the differences in this area. Just as there is no solution to the differences in religions around the world. They can respect each other, but they cannot agree, for their eternal fate is wrapped up in believing what they believe.

I do believe and understand that a person who believes as the quote states, can be utterly kind in all ways to all animals. But I do at least "question" whether they could ever have a Tom Dorrance type connection to animals.

I do not internally feel dominant to Hondo or Rimmey. And I try very hard not to dominate either of them. And they do not dominate me. We spent 6 hours hauling salt together today and I believe all enjoyed the trip. They, mostly for the water grass and other forages normally not available to them I admit.

I am for the most part fairly new to saddle horses having only began being full time with horses for a little over two years.

Hondo was slated for the auction and likely to a slaughterhouse in another country. I was told he was dangerous to ride above a walk. That was by people born on this 100 year old ranch 60 years ago.

Hondo is developing into a very solid and very reliable trail horse for me. And someone I might even die for. The unspoken communication and understandings grow daily. I do not punish.

Rimmey is another horse that in my view is being given up on. (at least i hope so) He is nervous, prancy, works up a sweat walking under saddle, and it is very hard to get a farrier to put shoes on him.

I did need to use a cotton rope on his feet while tie at first. Now I can pick up any foot in the field with him just grazing. Clean it, pound on it, whatever. Often when I'm walking to another foot it will be raised and uplifted before I bend over. I could have lost Rimmey in a heartbeat if I had punished him. For the longest time he seemed to be waiting for the other shoe to drop. He seems to be deciding that maybe, just maybe, this guy is not gonna hurt him.

I made the ninth trip today with Rimmey packing salt. Many trips without a pack saddle at first. Small steps.

He is a perfect pack horse. And his back is the same as Hondo's. I figure in 6 months or so I'll be riding him part of the time with Hondo packing.

As I've said, I'm fairly new to horses, but not new at all to animals. I've had no training in training horses as many on the ranch have had.

I was introduced to the round pen when first at the ranch. After about 10 minutes I simply said, "I cannot do this". And it was with Trigger, the first horse I had ridden in 40 years and then very little. Quite a while before Hondo. I feared my short tenure at the ranch would end but it did not.

In relating all this I'm trying to suggest there may be a lot more to these animals than many will allow for. Or something like that.


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## Joel Reiter

Hondo said:


> I have only watched one CA video and I doubt I will ever take the time to watch more, but maybe.


I don't know how to say this gently, but Honda, you've just disqualified yourself from having anything useful to add to this thread. You're comparing a 20 minute TV episode of Clinton Anderson to a mostly speculative understanding of Xenophon and Tom Dorrance. 

I've read Xenophon's little pamphlet on horses three times, and also his Anabasis. I think I'm about as familiar with what he taught as I can be. But I don't have any video. All I have is a little book that was written about 2500 years ago in a dead language and translated by some Englishman many years ago.

I'm afraid I'm a little suspicious of putting words into the mouth of Tom Dorrance. He was by all accounts a magician with horses and mostly incomprehensible to people. To me his book is impenetrable. If you told me your horse understood him I might believe you. If you claim you understand him I think you might be mistaken.

If you didn't like what you saw of Clinton Anderson in 20 minutes you have a right to your opinion. If you want to compare Clinton Anderson to Xenophon and Tom Dorrance, I'm afraid you don't know enough about any of them to do that, and I don't know anyone who does.

And by the way, Clinton Anderson is in agreement with the quote you use in your signature.


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## Foxhunter

I enjoy teaching whether it is a horse, dog or, more importantly, people. 

For majority horses are a hobby. What they, (people) lack is understanding of body language and timing. 

I teach a horse to understand the word 'stand' I will ask them to stand at the back of a stable untied. I will be fiddling around but watching the horse's knees. The moment the weight goes onto one leg and the other knee unlocks, I will give the command 'stand' and follow with a poke with my finger on its chest if it has lifted a leg to start to move. All very simple, no roughness, no need to chase them around, and they respect me for knowing what they are about to do before they do it. 

A simple little thing that stops many worse behaviours before they have a chance to start.


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## JCnGrace

foxhunter said:


> i enjoy teaching whether it is a horse, dog or, more importantly, people.
> 
> For majority horses are a hobby. What they, (people) lack is understanding of body language and timing.
> 
> I teach a horse to understand the word 'stand' i will ask them to stand at the back of a stable untied. I will be fiddling around but watching the horse's knees. The moment the weight goes onto one leg and the other knee unlocks, i will give the command 'stand' and follow with a poke with my finger on its chest if it has lifted a leg to start to move. All very simple, no roughness, no need to chase them around, and they respect me for knowing what they are about to do before they do it.
> 
> A simple little thing that stops many worse behaviours before they have a chance to start.


yes! Yes! Yes!


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## Hondo

Joel Reiter said:


> I don't know how to say this gently, but Honda, you've just disqualified yourself from having anything useful to add to this thread. .


Wull I reckon I been told. Thanks for the opinion. Forgive me if I leave that up to the OP.



Joel Reiter said:


> 20 minute TV episode of Clinton Anderson


More than enough to figure out who he is and what he is about. I don't remember for certain, but I doubt I even watched the full 20 minutes.



Joel Reiter said:


> To me his book is impenetrable.


Figures.........



Joel Reiter said:


> And by the way, Clinton Anderson is in agreement with the quote you use in your signature.


He sure seems to hide that pretty well.


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## Joel Reiter

Hondo said:


> Wull I reckon I been told. Thanks for the opinion. Forgive me if I leave that up to the OP.


I regret the tone of my post. This a friendly board and I don't wish to make enemies. Sorry.


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## Hondo

Joel Reiter said:


> I regret the tone of my post. This a friendly board and I don't wish to make enemies. Sorry.


And I regret my response. I swear to do better.


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## bsms

Clinton Anderson undoubtedly adheres more to the Nike School of Riding: "Just Do It!" He doesn't strike me as someone who cares if the horse knows why. That is irrelevant. "Just do it, horse, because I'm the Boss!"

Since many of the people he helps are of the Wilted Lettuce variety, it often works. But it certainly has some drawbacks, particularly if the horse is not naturally submissive. I would argue it never results in the best performance, except in the hands of an experienced rider who can convert unwilling obedience into willing obedience - and that is beyond my ability, and beyond the ability of most people who ride 1-2 hours a day (or week!) versus 8+ hours a day.

I also think it can create a more dangerous horse. Bandit would go forward acting unconcerned until he was deeply afraid, and then fight to protect his life. That is how a 6'3" life-long rider ended up on the wrong side of the saddle horn with 800 lb Bandit! That is why I was initially bewildered by a horse who seemed unconcerned but who then would race sideways 100-200 feet regardless of yards, driveways, footing, etc.

This advice from Tom Roberts helped me. I recently realized it is written about in the US Cavalry manual from the 1940s, James Fillis in 1890 and I've seen a few references to it going back hundreds of years. But what Tom Roberts tried in India in the 1920s was, I think, a BETTER approach for newish riders than the CA ORS and 'taking the head away' approach:








​ 
Using heels and slack reins, I've yet to be able to 'push' a horse into a position where he feels the need to violently react. Mia would still spin sometimes as a startle reaction, which wasn't much fun, but it beat trying to bolt or spinning thru 6-9 360 degree circles - and toward the end of the time I owned her, she rarely spun more than 90 degrees. Not perfect, but a vast improvement!

Following that advice gave Bandit the confidence to tell me, earlier, that he was very worried. If I honored that worry, and if need be went back 100 yards, dismounted, and then SLOOWWWLLY led him past the scary thing, he would react by blowing boogers out of his brain and patiently waiting while I mounted up. And before too many weeks, he was giving me early warnings and we could handle most things by compromise - a word that Clinton Anderson doesn't discuss often. It amazes me how often just moving 10-30 feet to one side can result in a horse going on with slack reins.

For a new rider, particularly a new rider who started when older (I started at 50) and who may be riding on paved roads or on trails, learning how to build your horses trust - real trust, not a round pen pseudo-trust - and how to work with your horse is a much bigger confidence builder than "_Just Do It!_". At 58, riding on a road or in between cactus, my confidence comes from my horse & I becoming a team. Clinton Anderson and the NH trainers talk a lot about building trust in a round pen, but they don't discuss the importance of the HUMAN learning to trust the HORSE, and of building trust in some place like this:








​ That looks pretty safe to me, but to a horse, it can be like a Halloween Fright House! I've had far more hard spooks in a human neighborhood than in the desert! I think a lot of older new riders (having been one myself) would be better served by learning how to compromise with their horse and ride him with slack reins than by trying to learn 'body control' and 'ORS' and 'push him past'.

But I've also met older riders who just needed to be firmer with their horse. In some cases, they REALLY needed to teach the horse that the human is a force to be reckoned with, not ignored - and Clinton Anderson is great at that.

And all of that is written from a non-Arena perspective. If someone wants a horse to ride patterns in an arena, and many do, then the Nike School may be the only way to do it. I have no idea how anyone teaches a horse that using a lot of energy to go nowhere is reasonable. I suspect some horses just have no business being ridden for that purpose.


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## Foxhunter

I am a 'no nonsense Nancy’ I say what I mean and mean what I say. I am also tough on my animals but always try to remain fair. 

I can see why CA's method works, do it or I will work the snot out of you. The horse is not allowed to think outside the box. The only praise it gets is being allowed to stand still. I like to praise, verbally, with a scratch as well as a release of pressure, that way it is learned that the voice can be good/bad depending on the tone. A reassuring scratch can relax them in certain situations just as a poke with the finger can stop something before it happens. 

I want a horse to work with me, I demand respect and in return will give respect. I want the two of us to part of a team, two bodies, one mind. 

My last horse had major issues, we worked through them, he was one of the strongest pullers I have ever ridden. I learned that going into any fence out hunting, to trust him and leave him to it. He was only 15.1 and going into a big hedge as wide as it was high, knowing he couldn't see the other side, takes a lot of trust to just sit still! 

Only once did he come near to falling, over a notorious hedge with a 4' drop on landing into Rosing ground, he hit the ground on his knees with his nose ploughing a groove in the mud. My feet hitting the ground. He managed to regain his feet and we were charging after hounds without really breaking breath. Next time he knew what to expect amd he never pecked at it again. 

It was pure trust that saved me from paying a fallers fine that day! 

With CA it seems that a horse is taught to never question bit to rely on the rider all the time. Had that been my case I would never have had the fun I did with Rufus.


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## jaydee

Anyone who's ever jumped horses to any height, especially cross country knows that you cannot force or dominate a horse to jump if it doesn't want too. 
If you've got to resort to forceful methods then no way would you ever want to put your trust in that horse when you needed it to get you out of a tricky situation.


Smilie - you cannot prevent people from putting themselves into situations they shouldn't be in - sometimes they aren't their by choice, sometimes they're just trying to do the best they can with what they have and sometimes its just down to 'you can't fix stupid'


CA's decent basic methods are no different to 100's of others that are doing the same sort of thing, may of them do it much better, they simply go on quietly and unnoticed
His bad methods - well you don't need to look too hard to see what they are if you've been around horses and training for long enough to know what's right and what's wrong
If he wasn't a TV star and just some old guy working horses in his back yard in the same way he works some of those horses in his videos people wouldn't be so quick to heap praise on him because the negatives outweigh any positives


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## bsms

Bandit's former owner liked Clinton Anderson because CA was gentler than what he'd seen. His method for teaching Mia to get in a trailer was hard work - more than I would want - but effective. And once learned, she was open to deciding she liked getting in trailers. Like me, he's seen people use a winch to get a horse into a trailer...

Perhaps it would help to think of CA as a people trainer. He is good at training a certain type of person to work with horses. And some of his horse methods are perfectly acceptable approaches for a lot of horses. I wouldn't send MY horses to him for training if he was free, but a number of people on this thread have said his method worked with their horses.

I'm not sure the very experience horsemen on this thread fully understand starting at 40 or 50, finding yourself with problems, yet having no one locally you trust to teach you. I did have someone, a local trainer who was very good with horses - and who has since stopped training horses. I've learned more from books than from video trainers, but I've also been told book learning isn't worth squat...yet I have been helped, by books and by videos. Since the only local trainer I trust has retired, I'd be up the crick without a paddle if told to "hire a trainer"!

I don't heap praise on Clinton Anderson, but I don't reject him out of hand either. Heck, I own a horse who was trained by someone using his DVD advice. I've found the horse very good at some things, but well short of what I think of as a good trail horse - although he had hundreds of miles under saddle. Bandit (an Arabian/Mustang mix) is a very independent thinker for a horse. He is less reactive than Mia, but even more determined to form his own opinions. He could watch 15 horses go past something scary and simply think, "_There goes 15 very stupid but very lucky horses..._" The CA methods didn't "make" him, but neither did they "break" him. He arrived adoring people. Not exactly trusting people, but he certainly liked people and assumed two legged creatures were good to horses. My biggest hurdle was teaching him that I wanted him to think and to talk to me - that I consider it a good thing!

I can see how a horse with a more submissive personality might do well using CA's methods. I can also see how some horses who try to intimidate their riders might do well with his methods. But his method is not in synch with my personality nor with my goals, so I don't rely on him. 

Still...I'm glad Bandit's previous owner wasn't a Parelli fan...:think:


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## jgnmoose

The brave willing horse that will just trust the rider and do whatever is an edge case. 

In Texas we call these horses "Born Broke", they just get along with people and naturally don't require much to get along with.

I know two different own daughters by Pauli O'Lena. Both are Half Arab/Quarter Horse reining horses that have gone to the national level. Both about 13 years old. One is really easy going, and just sort of fills in for you. You could put anyone on this horse. The other is a complete witch, it takes a strong rider who won't tolerate her constant tests, but if you can handle her she'll spin a hole in the ground and stop so hard it will scare you a little. 

My point is that any "program" can't assume the viewer is dealing with a lazy easy going horse that doesn't click their heels a bit when asked to do some work. If people had these horses, they wouldn't be so eager to get them trained up at $600 per DVD (and for more with a human trainer).


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## Smilie

Again, you can't compare training techniques, used in a set time frame, on a problem horse, with what one can do, given days, months or even years of training
Who is going to watch some 100 hour or more,of a more \gradual' approach to fixing a problem horse?
Far as military horses, come on, do you think they rode willingly into battle, into cannon fire, smell of blood, wounded horses screaming???
Bsms, very true that horses spook way less going home then away from home, but you can't always use the gradual approach. I'm not riding a cross open desert or a parade ground, but trails where a horse has to trust my leadership, go past an object, as to do otherwise, can mean going over a cliff
Tom Dorrance introduced a gentler method of training horses, to people that knew how to ride, get a horse broke, which is way different then trying to fix problem horses ,often by people that created those problems in the first place, not knowing,being able to start a horse, or at times, even how to maintain a good horse
Again, CA is not my choice, were I to take reining lessons again, BUT, there is also the fact that the very motto of reining is something along the line of 'to rein a horse, is to control his every move.' Some horses don;t cut it as reiners, as that pattern makes no sense to them, and it takes a great deal of 'honesty' for a horse to consistently run a great pattern. Some horses that don't make reiners, do better as working cowhorses, having a job
So yes, a reiner has to have some degree of blind obedience, or you could never run a reining pattern
You can hardly compare the training of a reiner, to meandering down a road or across a meadow
Going to get off in the middle of a fast flowing river, because your horse sees some suspicious rock or other object,on the opposite bank?
Far as a jumping course, I have seen Olympic level riders, at Spruce Meadows, use a crop very hard, on a horse that balked, or even ran out on a fence.
Breezy Maddon (not sure if I have the name right, but I think everyone here that is into International show jumping, knows who I mean), had her mount spook one year,and run out at a jump very badly, and she sure applied aids, including that crop, to get that forward and obedience!


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## bsms

"_Bsms...you can't always use the gradual approach...You can hardly compare the training of a reiner, to meandering down a road or across a meadow...Going to get off in the middle of a fast flowing river, because your horse sees some suspicious rock or other object,on the opposite bank?_"

1 - I find a gradual approach works well for me. I've already pointed out that others are successful with other approaches. However, as someone who took up riding at 50 and learned by riding a spooky horse, I do think a gradual approach would work well for many other middle-aged beginners, and ought to be a 'trick' in a person's bag of tricks.

2 - I don't compare training a reiner to what I do, but instead have contrasted it. My approach is based on teaching the horse to think, and I've pointed out that many arena sports will never make sense to a horse. However, I do think that a very good dressage rider or reiner will bring an element of 'play' and of 'we' into their riding, so the horse is supporting the 'team'.

3 - I don't have many streams here in Arizona, but I will ask my horse to climb out of a wash or go places where balking midway would be a bad thing. I generally let him take a look ahead, to the extent possible. I find that once HE accepts responsibility, he then gives his best effort - to include cooperating if there needs to be a change of plans. We can't see the top until we get there, and sometimes come out in a field of cactus...but he flexes better if he believes he has a stake in the outcome.

The point is not to always dismount, but to use dismounting as needed to build trust and confidence. I also will 'honor' my horse's refusal, because there is no honesty if I only pretend to let him make choices. What I am finding is that he gains confidence, but also starts to respond to being part of a team and that he doesn't want to let the team down.

It is an idea I rarely hear discussed, of trying to make the horse genuinely feel like he is a full member of the team and thus working with me to achieve a goal. I think what I'm seeing is a horse then takes ownership of the idea and gives extra effort to carry it out. It is what Etienne Beudant wrote about in his diary in the 1920s:

"_If the rider tries to do it all, the horse may permit him to do so, but the horse merely drifts, and limits his efforts to those which the rider demands. On the contrary, if the horse knows that he must rely on himself, he uses himself completely, with all of his energy_."

I think Charlotte Dujardin managed to get that from Valegro. I think a lot of jumpers - maybe all the top ones - get that from their horses. I think it is possible for a reiner to do it, if he rides with sensitivity. I think horses find a lot of fulfillment in forming a team with their rider, but that only comes when the rider brings the horse into a partnership.

"_If the rider tries to do it all" _seems like a good indictment of the Clinton Anderson approach.

I've only ridden 8 years, and only have significant experience on 2 horses...but the personality of horse number 1 has driven my approach with horse number 2. I was lucky in my first horse because she would only accept someone riding with her, and not just on her. Unhappily, I often failed her because I didn't understand how to bring the concepts of "we" and "team" into our riding. I still struggle with it in riding Bandit.

Part of the difference between being just a rider and being a horseman is to bring out the best in a horse. If I want to be a horseman, even just a trail riding horseman, then I need to let the horse be more than just muscle. I need more than body control. If I can't win his heart and mind, then I'll never be anything but a rider.

I quoted Baucher earlier: "*Let him think that he is our master, then he is our slave*." I think the real goal is not tricking the horse, but genuinely offering a partnership, and giving him a stake in the game. Be that game reining, dressage, jumping or traveling down a desert wash...making the horse a genuine part of the team is huge. And I think Clinton Anderson misses it, which is part of why he won't be a top reiner.

I also think that sense of "WE" is what many middle-aged beginner desire, and a better way of riding without getting hurt. Horses who are part of the team don't explode and fight their rider. A horse who feels his rider is his team-mate tends to spook in place, and wait for his rider to suggest a way to proceed. At least, that is what I think I am seeing in Bandit. We are still working on it. Both of us sometimes still get tense, and not always in synch or with a reason. But to work, I think it has to be real. I don't know how to fool the horse. And I think NH trainers ought to admit it, and admit that one doesn't create that team in a round pen or at a 3-day "Challenge"!


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## Hondo

bsms said:


> by Etienne Beudant "If the rider tries to do it all, the horse may permit him to do so, but the horse merely drifts, and limits his efforts to those which the rider demands. On the contrary, if the horse knows that he must rely on himself, he uses himself completely, with all of his energy."





bsms said:


> by Simon of Athens "What a horse does under compulsion, he does blindly"
> 
> That is only partially true.


My understanding of what Simon of Athens was saying is very close and perhaps exactly the same as the quote above by Etienne Beudant which IMO is not partially true but totally true.

I may have been at fault for making a partial quote. Simon was comparing a horse trained by whip and spike to a dancer trained by whip and spike. I'm not really familiar with dancing but my understanding is that it is very similar to singing as a personal expression that is generated from within, comes from within.

A singer or dancer may have a director, but the best result must come from within the singer or dancer.

That is very similar in my view to what Beudant is saying.

I will also add that in my readings on packing a string of loose horses that the horses must at times figure out how to negotiate very steep and narrow trails while avoiding encounters with the pack sticking out. And that they must be able to do this without a leader at all.

I'm betting that Smilie's horse, if it wanted, could travel those mountain trails without input from a rider or even having a rider onboard.

Edit: Have to add this. Reining horses, which I sadly have only seen on video, almost blow my mind. THAT is coming from within. No micro managing of the horse there! Just stay out his way! (i'd fall off certain)


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Off Topic: I’ve had the opportunity to ride a competitive reining horse and it is loads of fun if you know how to properly cue. If not, good luck. 

I also had the chance to ride a finished Bridle horse (similar to a Grand Prix level English dressage horse but will work cattle and rides in the open as well as the arena) straight up in the spade bit. Of the two, I really preferred riding the Bridle horse for the refinement/subtlety of movement and the mental focus needed…just my opinion though.

The two approaches to training techniques for producing the respective types of horses are different with very different results.


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## Smilie

There is a difference, as we have discussed before, of giving a horse permission, to make a decision, when we ourselves are not sure, on a tricky trail, and the horse assuming control, thinking he knows better, when the we know the horse's choice is wrong
Again, I will use a trail as example. I hate riding through bogs, but sometimes there is no choice. The trails ridden with bogs, have the 'safest way through them , travelled heavily, thus are churned up and muddy. On either side, there is un touched ground, that looks deceiving 'safe;, but are in fact, not traveled, because they are almost bottomless bog
Many horses will try to head to that green looking detour,and the rider has to then be able to convince the horse to go straight through that muddy sinking center, knowing it is the safest place to get through
Of course, I let my horses pick their way on a tough trail, most of the time on a total loose rein, BUt, they have to let me take control, when I decide it is in the best interest for both of us.
You can't compare CA's correction of problem horses, to just riding with common horse sense,nor that he is even suggesting that the rider must dominate a horse, never letting that horse be a partner. Parallels are being drawn that don't even exist,When working with a problem horse, that has learned he can say 'no', you have to apply enough pressure until you get that give
We all know that it is better for a horse to never learn a vise then to have to un train a bad behavior
For instance, a horse that has been handled correctly from birth, thus accepts even when he is 1000 pounds or more, that the plain lead shank and halter controls him, is way different then ahorse that has learned he can pull away. For the latter, you have to convince him, by whatever it takes, that he will not be successful in the future
I see CA riding his finished horses on a loose rein, in many activities, so I beg to differ that he demands way less complete blind obedience at all times, then many horses ridden in disciplines where they are always held between rein and legs, often to a high degree.


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## Foxhunter

Smilie, that reminds me of a time when I was hunting on Exmoor. I was riding a hired horse. Hounds were running hard and I saw a sort cut. I took it. The horse was willing. Charging along a vague track at a fair clip, the horse did a dead stop, I went over its head and luckily held the reins as I was in deep bog. The horse pulled me out. I never did my own route again!


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## Hondo

Smilie said:


> you have to apply enough pressure until you get that give


"Apply enough pressure" worries me. Some may read it as simply upping the ante until the horse complies. I'm not convinced that would be the best course of action for some horses including the problem horse that may have become a problem horse exactly from too much pressure being applied with too little thinking.


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## Smilie

Problem horses result from not often using the ask, ask louder then demand, and also recognizing the slightest give and reward the horse
Instead the person picks at the horse, and the horse just learns to be heavy, non responsive and dull
There is also a difference in teaching a green horse, that does not understand what is being asked, and then figuring out how to make your request more under stood, maybe going back to some missing basics, where you certainly don't up the anti, versus a PROBLEM horse, who knows darn well what he is being asked to do, but instead had learned he can give you the proverbial equine finger, intimidate his rider, ect


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## Greenmeadows

Thanks everyone for all the thoughts on CA. I have learned a lot from reading all of these great replies!


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## Joel Reiter

Smilie said:


> Who is going to watch some 100 hour or more,of a more \gradual' approach to fixing a problem horse?


None of Clinton Anderson's critics. So far, in hundreds of posts finding fault with Clinton for one thing or another, not a single one has watched the 28-30 hours of his fundamentals or colt-starting set. Or read any of his three books.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I don’t know that you have to watch all of his videos, and read all of his books to get a sense that his training approach either is or is not something appropriate for you and your horse, at least when you are coming at it with a bit of experience from the get-go. I’ve watched probably 10 of his you tube videos, watched him on RFDTV and read one of his books and it was enough to know that while some of the things that he teaches will work best for some, it wasn’t for me and my horses.

I’d say that is the way with most trainers both the ones you physically come in contact with as well as the less tangible type found through various forms of media. You don’t need to be with a trainer for longer than a few lessons to know whether a teaching style or training approach is working for you and, more importantly, your horse. There are many trainers out there with a lot of successes under their belts and yet people tend towards a preference of one approach or another, often adapting it to suit the particular horse and goals they have. 

This is an important point in that you can pay a trainer to put 60-90 days on your horse, get him home but if you cannot maintain that training yourself, the training will devolve over time. Compatibility between the owner and the approach to training is important. 

Tom Dorrance was mentioned earlier. What I find interesting is that often, some of his better known phrases are applied by people who then say that his books were not understandable. I am continually perplexed as to how a person can claim to understand a phrase when they do not understand the overall context in which it was used. This holds true for Mr. Anderson's methods as well.

I actually found TD's books, both True Unity; Creating Willing Communication Between Horse and Human as well as, Feel, Timing and Balance, when taken in the context of training for the horse rather than for the convenience of the human, quite enlightening. Each time I have gone back to read it over the years have found a new pearl of wisdom of deeper understanding of the horse that I simply was not prepared to comprehend before. 

TD, was not about making people happy by providing quick and easy answers, he was all about making horses happy by creating willingness through a deeper understanding of the horse. He was an advocate for preserving the spirit of the horse throughout training. For some people, for whom that becomes a priority, he is probably a good choice. If you can't understand him, then probably not a good choice. Choice is good.

People like easy, clear, quick answers. CA and other more commercially palatable trainers provide that for them. It fills a niche.

I can be tough with a horse and spent a good chunk of my life doing just that. Maybe it is a sign of getting older and softer, perhaps a bit of experience in that I no longer find that necessary in dealing with horses to get the results I want because I recognize a problem long before it becomes one; thusly I find the approaches of Brannaman and Dorrance (both employing a more of a modern "Vaquero" method) more suitable to my “style” these days.


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## bsms

One can comment on a trainer based on samples. CA has a video on how to handle spooks on a trail. His approach was to immediately use a one rein stop, then turn the horse back and forth "for 3-5 minutes" until the 'horse stops using the reactive side of the brain'. That approach contradicts my own experience, and it contradicts advice from old time trainers like the US Cavalry or James Fillis. It probably works with some types of horses, but it will confirm the fear of a nervous type of horse and make them more nervous. Trying that approach with Mia early on may have made her worse...or not, since she arrived a very nervous horse. But it sure did not help!

His advice on teaching a horse to walk down a hill is to intermittently and unpredictably have the horse stop and start backing up the hill. The idea is that the horse never knows what the rider wants, and thus needs to constantly be prepared to do something else mid-way. That may or may not be useful with a group of horses going down a gradual hill. It would be a bad idea in the terrain where I ride, and I don't like teaching the horse to constantly worry if his rider is going to tell him to do the opposite from what he said 10 seconds earlier.

It goes back to the fundamental difference between how I want to approach training a horse and a common thread running thru every CA video I've watched - which isn't 30 hours, but maybe 15+. CA wants the rider in total control of every step. I want to be able to set goals, and then let the horse help me achieve those goals using his own judgment - judgement which must be taught to the horse. As Reiningcatsanddogs said: "_Compatibility between the owner and the approach to training is important._"

Bandit was trained by a guy using CA methods because CA was gentler than what other people said to do. The good news was that Bandit liked people, and took direction well - to a point. When I first started giving Bandit options instead of commands, he didn't like it. You could almost hear him complaining, "Just TELL me. Thinking is hard!" 

But as he got used to it, the occasional explosions stopped. And what I've been noticing is that when HE accepts responsibility for something, he pursues it with a lot more energy, fearlessness and adaptability than I get if I just tell him to do X. I suspect this is related to what jaydee said about jumping: "_*If you've got to resort to forceful methods then no way would you ever want to put your trust in that horse when you needed it to get you out of a tricky situation*._" I don't jump, but her statement is true of my experience trail riding.

If I push Bandit into some tricky footing, he may panic. If he accepts responsibility for getting us past, then he doubles down the effort if needed and doesn't get scared. Smilie asked what happens when crossing a stream if the horse decides a rock on the far side is scary - do I dismount mid stream? Well, I don't have any stream to cross. But extrapolating from what I've seen in Bandit, if HE accepts responsibility for crossing the stream, then he isn't going to scare easy. And if he does, he will still be looking for ways to accomplish the goal, and be very amenable to suggestions to flex left or right, or even to just keep pressing straight ahead.

My approach would stink for a lot of arena sports, at least with a rider at my level. CA has said he doesn't want a thinking horse for reining...and IMHO, that might limit his ability to progress very high in reining competitions. Don't know, and he is free to try what he wants. I've never even seen a live reining competition.

But I am someone who started at 50, and started by riding a very nervous and reactive horse. I was dead center in the audience that has made CA rich! I fully understand being overhorsed, and I fully understand needing help but not finding much local advice that seems trustworthy. I believe CA and other DVD trainers (and books) fill a useful role. I just also think a new rider like I was would be better served by learning how to build genuine trust...even though it is slower. 

I think a lot of older beginning riders strongly want to trust their horse, but don't know how. When I started riding, I was told by some locals that one should NEVER trust a horse - that *safety in riding comes from complete control, not from trusting someone who is fundamentally stupid and skittish!* 8 years later, I think about that advice with shame for humanity! I don't want to be a sack of potatoes on the horse, requiring the horse to decide everything. That isn't fair to the horse, either. But I also don't want to think of myself as the Divine Emperor whose will is absolute. And I do believe horse sense - as a synonym for "common sense" - exists...if we help it along...


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## Smilie

What CA projects in 'training', is not the same as following some trainer's training program- the two are addressing different needs and even class of horse people and horses
To be honest, I have followed no NH trainer, or any past guru , like TD. , or Buck B., ect, or classical 'masters' from history.
I have read some of their stuff, as I read and watch most things horse related, but I don't go back and quote those old masters like prophets, having the one and only way, or the undisputed "truth'
My horse knowledge/learning curve, started with just the horses themselves being my teacher, self taught, no books, no mentors, no DVDs,.
I then started taking formal clinics, from many different local trainers, or well known ones, that were brought in by some associations
I put togther, from each one, what worked for me, and then put those training/horse communications to work, testing them against my peers, in the show ring, and out on the open trails.
Every horses I ever rode or showed, I trained from day one by myself. That gives you an entirely different perspective, as you know that you and only you, are responsible for both the mind, attitude and training responsiveness of that horse
You can then look, read, various training techniques, applied in the situation shown, and decide if that is an approach you might use, in some case, on a particular horse or not
I can say that I have had great relationships with many horses, have loved them in fact, and they in turn worked for me, were happy, never hard to catch, and many went on to being great ambassadors, with new owners being happy and satisfied, many becoming friends, staying in touch
I have never read any training program, be it that of CA, parelli and his 7 games, kinda struggled reading part of Rashid, did read Buck, watched Stacy W, but never bought her training series either. Know that TD was considered one of the father of NH, but never read him either
What I have done, is noted, those in the horse industry who are respected by their peers, who turn out good horses time and again, horses that remain sound in body and mind, become great amateur and youth horses, and have tried to take as many clinics from those individuals as possible
Many days, now, even at my age, I still ride all three of my horses on some days. Each one teaches me something new, but all three respect me and work wilingly.
Thus, instead of just bashing CA, take what works from him, in a particular case, and see where even if none of it applies to your horses, there IS application for many problem horses that he works with, created by people who often have no clue of the difference between respect and treating a horse like a big dog, or afraid of correcting a horse, once, strong enough, to actually fix the problem, as they then fear the horse won't ;love them, or bond with them.
They also often confuse dealing with an abused horse, with dealing with a spoiled horse, and there are more of the latter then the former!


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## Smilie

BSMS, see, you just proved my point that one big reason many don't like CA's solutions, is because they both take them out of context, and just take what they want, leaving out key information

First, CA, and any other trainer, like Larry Trocha, or even Cheri, will tell you that you first have a horse with body control on him, have used the oen rein stop, or simply taken his head away, at home, at all gaits, before YOU EVER TRY IT out on a trail
Sure, there is the pully rein stop, taught to the troops, to stop ahorse already out on a full bolt, with no body control on him, often ridden by someone who was never even near horses, until that short training, once inlisted, before sent out on duty
No horseman, CA included, is going to suggest using the one rein stop, on a horse never taught it, and esp once that horse is in an all out bolt-unless you wish to be a stunt man!

Far as that trail example, you will note, that CA said not even to start on a SLIGHT hill, if that horse is not soft to begin with. In fact, that technique should have been shown on no hill, as there is going to be people like you, that focus on the hill, and not the message
He is simply showing a basic technique so a horse does not learn to be strong, and rush, and that begins by never letting the horse lean on that bit. I will use it, on the flat, so if ahorse tries to rush, speed up unasked, I will stop him, back him hard with my legs, and then give him SLACK" and a chance to go as asked, without being held by the reins-this is crucial. Then, when I am going up or down a hill, on a completly loose rein, if I wish to slow the horse, I only have to take up light contact, for a moment, by raising my hand, and then immediately the horse will check, and I give him slack again
Perhaps CA expressed what he wants in areiner, not in quite the right words. A reiner has to be obedient tot he aids, so he does not make executive decisions, like, "we usually change leads at center, so I will just change, versus waiting for that leg cue, or, we are in a run down to a sliding stop, so I will just stop at center marker, as many patterns have, when in fact, that pattern requires the horse to run past center marker to stop
A horse that thinks, anticipates in the reining pen, will not run an honest pattern-and that is what he was trying to say.
On a trail, there are many ways, and sometimes the horse knows the best way-in a reining pattern, there is only on pattern, and off pattern.
What you and |Bandit do on a trail, has zero to do with riding a reining pattern.


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## Foxhunter

Joel Reiter said:


> None of Clinton Anderson's critics. So far, in hundreds of posts finding fault with Clinton for one thing or another, not a single one has watched the 28-30 hours of his fundamentals or colt-starting set. Or read any of his three books.



I have watched many of his videos, certainly several hours of them. It is more a case of 'seen one - seen them all." 

The ones I really enjoyed was when he went to Australia to break the rogue brumby that was because of the humour in it all. 

The thing that I see is that when the horses are trained solely by hos method they all look bored and uninterested, acting rather like clockwork.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Smile brings up an interesting point, namely there is more than one way to skin a cat, to use an old saying.

This forum exists because this is true.

We all start somewhere with abilities that can become either strengths or weaknesses; sometimes a strength overdone, becomes a weakness.

As a for instance; in the past, I have been told that even at 5’4” and 110# I am intimidating. This came even from my male friends. My best female friend said she was scared to death of me for months before she sucked it up and started to get to know me. Maybe that is why most of my best friends have always been males? :think:

While it might be good to command respect, which was a necessary component of my former job, intimidating is not good. It is something that I have actively tried to work on to temper in recent years and have found it to be both a strength and weakness in working with animals.

I have one horse who is very confident and commands respect from the other horses without the need for physicality, his presence is enough to be given leadership. He has never given me problems and came to us halter broke.

Perhaps in this case, with this particular horse, my intimidation factor works in my favor as he just does not even think to challenge me. In fact, those that have found it necessary to enter into a physical domination match with this horse come out on the losing end. He figures out pretty quickly who is the real deal and who doesn't quite measure up. As my trainer/friend stated, "That horse can read people like a book. He sees everything, straight into your soul."

The opposite is true with my performance bred, spooky, former competitive roping horse. As kind and gentle as I can be with him (dare I say even loving?), I scare the snot out of him and make him hyper sensitive to every request.

My husband, who loves horses and has actually told me they are "just like big dogs" can get only so much from my strong willed boy yet, the spooky one relaxes with him and gives him the moon. Oddly enough, he has a similar effect with the boarder’s colt we are working with, who by all accounts should be a big uncontrollable turd with such “lack of leadership” and soft touch.

A weakness can become a strength and strength a weakness depending upon the horse and the approach you choose to take. Like I said, having choices is good.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Foxhunter said:


> The thing that I see is that when the horses are trained solely by hos method they all look bored and uninterested, acting rather like clockwork.


And in some circles that is EXACTLY what they want. That clockwork reaction is seen as dependable and reliable and is what they're looking for. The horse who is raiding my pockets or trying various things to get my attention is seen as 'spoiled' and not worth having. Basically CA is giving his clientele exactly what they want.


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## jgnmoose

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> And in some circles that is EXACTLY what they want. That clockwork reaction is seen as dependable and reliable and is what they're looking for. The horse who is raiding my pockets or trying various things to get my attention is seen as 'spoiled' and not worth having. Basically CA is giving his clientele exactly what they want.


I imagine that a lot of CA's clientele are "Trail Riders". How far away from the trailer do you want to be when your horse spooks, spins and bolts at an oddly shaped stick. 5 miles, 10? 
He knows who the people are who want this information, and they want the horse to not be a bomb waiting to go off at the worst possible time. If he were talking to a Barrel Racer or Team Roper I am pretty sure his information would be adjusted accordingly.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

jgnmoose said:


> I imagine that a lot of CA's clientele are "Trail Riders". How far away from the trailer do you want to be when your horse spooks, spins and bolts at an oddly shaped stick. 5 miles, 10?
> He knows who the people are who want this information, and they want the horse to not be a bomb waiting to go off at the worst possible time. If he were talking to a Barrel Racer or Team Roper I am pretty sure his information would be adjusted accordingly.


I don't actually dislike or disagree with a lot of what he says. I do think there are different ways to accomplish the same 'bomb proof horse' results without destroying personality. 

And I think you're very correct on how he would tailor his approach based on different disciplines. What I like and what your basic trail rider likes are not even close, so for me he would not advocate that trail horse method. He'd approach it from a much different stand point and still give me a well trained horse.


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## Smilie

All I can say, having ridden about as extreme trails that there are, over many years, on many different horses, I would rather ride a horse trained by CA then by many posting here, esp on trails where you don't have acres to use the gradual approach, where it is downright unsafe to get off )(middle of fast flowing river, bog, or middle of a steep and tricky trail, where you have to keep foreward, or risk, going backwards, whether you want to or not!
There is also the fact, that there are basic safe horse handling principles, used to teach,. 4H and other programs, introducing people to horses, are an example of this , as is showmanship, which is an amateur and youth class only
Sure, those of us who have been around horses lots, know our horses, deviate from this, thus at times feed hand treats and use other techniques that would be frowned on, based on basic good horsemanship
I don't think CA suggests to intimidate a horse, but rather to not let a horse intimidate you-there is a difference!
Exceptions, as wht you do with your own horses, knowing them, does not mean one should then project those methods to someone that does not know how to read a horse, when to recognize that the horse is crossing that line, and when something considered harmless, becomes habit-like a horse walking off while being mounted,easy enough to still get on, UNTIL it escalates, tot hat horse bolting when mounted


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## Joel Reiter

My big guy is a nervous horse. He is nervous about new sights, sounds, smells, and situations. In the first winter I had him he went through the fence when a neighbor turned on his Christmas lights.

I was terrified to ride him after the first time he spooked on the trail, wheeling 90 degrees while talking off at a dead run and leaving me limping after him on the ground.

Two things I learned from Clinton Anderson changed that. First, after applying his lunging technique my horse walked calmly past objects that spooked him before. Possibly he got the idea that I am the one who gets to decide what is spooky. Whatever the case, it was transformative.

Second, the one rein stop is magical. I have had two serious spooks in the last ten years, both detonated by livestock on the other side of the fence. In the one case five spooky heifers panicked and ran off, spooking my little guy who was in the pasture with them. In the other, a horse came up to the fence to check out my horse, and as he was pawing got his foot over the electric wire and shot backwards at high speed. Both times my guy exploded and both times he stopped within 20' thanks to a one-rein stop. We did a few circles both times while our heart rates slowed down, and then life went back to normal.

I don't try to push Clinton Anderson on people who know how to train horses. But for people like me he has been a life saver. So I recommend him to other beginners who don't know where to turn. Nobody else out there offers the same clear and comprehensive instruction.


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## bsms

Smilie said:


> BSMS, see, you just proved my point that one big reason many don't like CA's solutions, is because they both take them out of context, and just take what they want, leaving out key information
> 
> First, CA, and any other trainer, like Larry Trocha, or even Cheri, will tell you that you first have a horse with body control on him, have used the oen rein stop, or simply taken his head away, at home, at all gaits, before YOU EVER TRY IT out on a trail...
> 
> ...No horseman, CA included, is going to suggest using the one rein stop, on a horse never taught it...
> 
> ...Far as that trail example, you will note, that CA said not even to start on a SLIGHT hill, if that horse is not soft to begin with. In fact, that technique should have been shown on no hill, as there is going to be people like you, that focus on the hill, and not the message.
> 
> He is simply showing a basic technique so a horse does not learn to be strong, and rush, and that begins by never letting the horse lean on that bit....What you and |Bandit do on a trail, has zero to do with riding a reining pattern.


I did not take anything out of context or leave out key information. 

I have had plenty of people tell me the solution to ANY strong willed horse is to get total body control in the arena before heading out - which simply does not work on a truly strong willed horse. A) A truly strong willed horse NEVER totally yields control, and B) many horses will always behave differently outside the arena than inside.

I have made it very clear I am not discussing reining or any arena sports. But the term "body control", IMHO, is utterly bogus and creates the wrong impression on new riders. The horse ALWAYS has a mind, at least unless he is a stupid horse who has had independent thought trained out of him. And it is the MIND that a good rider works with!

A horse obviously needs to learn a few cues - turn left, turn right, slow down & stop - before heading out on a trail. Those cues can be simple. The rider may need to be ready to use them forcefully on the trail. But you NEVER control the body of a horse. Not unless you have a plug that enters his nervous system and bypasses his brain.

A huge key to teaching a person to ride safely on the trail is to work with the mind and not assume 'body control'. If you work with the mind, then a few very simple cues will keep you riding safe on a trail. If you ignore the mind, then you will find the horse has one at the most inopportune moments.

I realize a great many experienced riding instructors disagree with me. OTOH, I write from the perspective of someone who started at 50 and who quickly found himself faced with the puzzle of how to stay alive on a nervous horse in the desert (or neighborhoods, which were harder still). I think the emphasis on teaching riding in the arena, and promoting the myth of 'body control', harms the new rider. They don't know what to do when confronted with a scared horse in the open because they haven't been taught. Nor have they been taught awareness of the warning signs that often precede an explosion. So they push the horse into an explosion, then agitate it further by trying the CA version of the ORS, scaring the horse even more than it was before:










What CA teaches in response to a spook or startle will cause many horses - NOT ALL - to become more afraid, not less. With nervous horses and some others, it turns the startle into a confirmed fear. When you punish a horse for being afraid - and many horses will feel they are being punished if you whip their head to your knee and start turning them again and again for 3-5 minutes - then what James Fillis (a dressage rider, BTW) wrote in 1890 applies:

"...I have already said that a horse has but little intelligence. He cannot reason, and has only memory. If he is beaten when an object suddenly comes before him and startles him, *he will connect in his mind the object and the punishment*. If he again sees the same object, he will expect the same punishment, his fear will become increased, and he will naturally try to escape all the more violently...." 

Been there, done that. Made my horse worse. Eventually started to climb out of the hole I helped create when I started trying the advice of Tom Roberts, giving my horse freedom instead of trying to take total control:










That - plus going to a curb bit - was the key to turning Mia into a better horse.

And that is the root of my disagreement with the "Clinton Anderson Method". It puts me at odds with a great many experts. I have found very little written or put on DVD about the horse's mind. Most of what I've seen indicates the same as what I was told when I started: "*safety in riding comes from complete control, not from trusting someone who is fundamentally stupid and skittish*". Much of modern riding instruction seems to assume the horse has no sense, while I accept "horse sense" as a valid synonym for "common sense".

"_How far away from the trailer do you want to be when your horse spooks, spins and bolts at an oddly shaped stick...and they want the horse to not be a bomb waiting to go off at the worst possible time._" - @*jgnmoose* 

If one rides the horse's mind, then the horse might STARTLE at something, but he won't spin or bolt. He won't even startle much. That is why I believe safety is founded in riding the horse's mind rather than 'body control'. If you ride the mind, the horse will NOT "_be a bomb waiting to go off at the worst possible time_". Safety is rooted in a horse who is a team mate, not a mindless servant. It is a variation of Harry Whitney's phrase about keeping the horse's mind between two reins.

But very few, if any, NH trainers discuss it. In truth, almost no one seems to discuss it. We teach people to ride lesson horses in circles in an arena, and then wonder how they find themselves overhorsed...:think:

BTW - Bandit *IS* a horse trained by someone following Clinton Anderson's methods. He was still a time bomb, and put a life-long, 6'3" rider on the wrong side of the saddle horn. With Bandit, CA's method worked until it didn't work, and then Bandit was a bomb. I've done the spins, the running sideways, and the bucking...on a horse who was trained by a guy using the CA approach.

I have granted, many times now, that CA's method works for many horses and riders. Not all, and I think there are better approaches for a new rider.


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## Joel Reiter

bsms said:


> I think there are better approaches for a new rider.


Please share your list.


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## Smilie

There is always not just one way, but, taking the head away, re directing the horse , to do some familiar movements, is not punishment, done correctly, but to get the horse;s mind back on you, defusing his flight mode
You darn well can control that horse;s flight, IF YOU have the training and body control on him, as I have had that proven many times over the years.
Conversely, while going against standard theory going to a curb, fro control, works, sometimes, might have worked for you, it in no way has ever been shown to work on a large majority of horses, as I have seen horses bolt with curbs and buck people off, well as with a snaffle, and many horses will learn to run through any bit, soon as those new pressure points become dulled, and basic holes in training not fixed.
In fact, BSMS how can you in the same breath, proclaim the importance of getting into a horse;s mind, not depend on body control, yet advocate going to a curb for control-you don't see the paradox????
Of course, good training involves getting into a horse;s mind, earning that trust, convincing him through correct training, never to challenge any bit or halter, and body control just helps tap into that mind connection, whet that mind temporarily leaves you. That is part of the entire point of not going to a curb for control, in the first place! No bit controls a horse, not for long at least!
I am not implying that body control alone is going to make you successful in controlling a horse, but it sure as heck helps you get the mind back on you, and makes it more difficult for the horse to just stay engaged, and ready to react to that inborn flight alert.
I rode enough colts out when I was younger, to know this is true. Not one or two previously maybe spoiled horses, but many green horses, year in and year out


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## Smilie

Far as Bandit being a horse trained by CA's method, I can tell you both Pat Parelli and CA would cringe at some horses, touted as having been trained by their methods!
Mannuals are only as good as the person reading and applying what they THINK they read!


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## Hondo

bsms said:


> Smilie asked what happens when crossing a stream if the horse decides a rock on the far side is scary - do I dismount mid stream?


I just can't pass this up. At the risk of exposing myself to some as a complete nincompoop, yes, absolutely, if Hondo told me emphatically, "Harold, if we finish crossing this stream we're are going to die".

Then I'd talk to him about it and try to lead from the ground. If that failed, we'd go back to the other side and talk about it for a while.

We would eventually cross, unless a mountain lion appeared. Then I'd try to get mounted before we ran like hades.

This approach happens to work for Hondo and I and he just keeps getting braver and braver.


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## Hondo

Joel Reiter said:


> Please share your list.


I think the most important thing for new riders/horse owners is to begin to understand who a horse is rather than ABC's of any particular method.

For that, I feel fortunate to have first read, Tachyhippodimia by Powell as my very first read. Then my second Horses Never Lie by Rashid. And others by Rashid.

Neither are training manuals for the horse. I'd say more manuals for the new rider/owner. Once the new owner gets their head and heart in the correct place, I think they are ready to make their own choice about ABC.


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## Hondo

Joel Reiter said:


> I was terrified to ride him after the first time he spooked on the trail, wheeling 90 degrees while talking off at a dead run and leaving me limping after him on the ground.


This happend to me three times during the first year, except they were 180 degree bolts. There were others where I stayed on. I was very very close to throwing in the towel.

I posted a thread named Spook, spin, bolt, stop, look; or similar. Got lots of advice. Some I took and some I did not.

I did no training to Hondo. He has certainly never been in a round pen with me.

The only changes made were to myself, my attention to Hondo and the surroundings, and more than my attention, my attentiveness. I just began being mentally with him more and more.

Sure, he's still a horse with inborn reactions to staying alive, but when I look back at that first year, which was not that long ago, wow what a difference. He did a spook squat not long ago and I noticed him stretching his neck and head to see if it was going to come after him. Before he'd have been 100 feet away before he looked to see what it was.

If he is scared about something, he becomes very frustrated if his fear is not acknowledged. "What? Are you totally blind? No sense of smell? Deaf? Are you still breathing? Hello?

If I tried some of CA's stuff on Hondo he'd look at me and say, Are you serious? Hahahaha. Hondo knows me way too well.

But when I'm ready to go, he literally helps me put the bridle on. Sticks his nose right into it. He did not always do that.


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## Joel Reiter

Hondo said:


> For that, I feel fortunate to have first read, Tachyhippodamia by Powell as my very first read. Then my second Horses Never Lie by Rashid. And others by Rashid.


I have never heard of Willis J. Powell except from you. That book was written before 1923!

Rashid is one of my favorites and I have three of his books but when I watched him live in Saint Paul he seemed to me to be a very slow, very patient, very gentle version of Clinton Anderson. Absolutely nothing different in the way the two did things except for the patience of Mark Rashid. Stacy Westfall is another trainer who is more patient and gentle than Clinton. Craig Cameron was the roughest trainer I've watched.

You don't have to be in a hurry to use Clinton's techniques. I cringe every time I watch him shake a lead and bump a horse under the chin with a snap. None of my lead ropes have any metal on them. Slower works, it's just slower.


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## Smilie

Hondo said:


> I think the most important thing for new riders/horse owners is to begin to understand who a horse is rather than ABC's of any particular method.
> 
> For that, I feel fortunate to have first read, Tachyhippodimia by Powell as my very first read. Then my second Horses Never Lie by Rashid. And others by Rashid.
> 
> Neither are training manuals for the horse. I'd say more manuals for the new rider/owner. Once the new owner gets their head and heart in the correct place, I think they are ready to make their own choice about ABC.


Rashid is the idoit that termed all curbs with a broken mouth piece as a Tom Thumb, and then gave an expose of complete garbage!
He should have stuck to martial arts!


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## Smilie

Hondo said:


> I just can't pass this up. At the risk of exposing myself to some as a complete nincompoop, yes, absolutely, if Hondo told me emphatically, "Harold, if we finish crossing this stream we're are going to die".
> 
> Then I'd talk to him about it and try to lead from the ground. If that failed, we'd go back to the other side and talk about it for a while.
> 
> We would eventually cross, unless a mountain lion appeared. Then I'd try to get mounted before we ran like hades.
> 
> This approach happens to work for Hondo and I and he just keeps getting braver and braver.


Not talking about a stream Hondo, but fast flowing river, where you are lucky to get across against the current on a horse, let alone try getting off and walking. They might find you, down stream,
or not at all!


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## bsms

Joel Reiter said:


> Please share your list.


I've been doing that. But I've just ordered a book by Tom Dorrance. It seems he might talk principles more than specific techniques, and I fault CA for not discussing principles. I've discussed principles more than specifics, but I've also given examples.



Smilie said:


> ...In fact, BSMS how can you in the same breath, proclaim the importance of getting into a horse;s mind, not depend on body control, yet advocate going to a curb for control-you don't see the paradox????...


None at all. I already wrote (post 266):

"_A horse obviously needs to learn a few cues - turn left, turn right, slow down & stop - before heading out on a trail. Those cues can be simple. The rider may need to be ready to use them forcefully on the trail_."

As I have explained to you multiple times before, Mia COULD be stopped from bolting if you 'took her head away' - to use a CA-like phrase and approach. Then we would do a 180, she would try again, we would do another 180, she would try again, we would do another 180, she would try again, we would do another 180, and so on ad nauseum...and it MIGHT well take "3-5 minutes" - to QUOTE Clinton Anderson - to stop her from being reactive.

And by that time, she *KNEW* the scary thing was *UTTERLY TERRIFYING*. Blast it, Smilie, that is the point! What Clinton Anderson said to do failed! NOT WITH EVERY HORSE. I've said repeatedly on this thread that he performs a useful role and that his method works with some horses.

Since it was not possible to stop her in her tracks with a snaffle, and since "taking her head away" was possible but not productive, I tried something else. We went back to the very beginning, and I taught her to stop in a straight line with a curb. It took 3 sessions of 45 minutes in an arena. Then we tried it in the desert. And when she became afraid of a motorcycle, and started to run, it took one firm bump to stop her - in a straight line. Then she paused, and the motorcycle went away. And the light came on, and she began to realize that if she stopped, the scary thing ran away from her! At that point, having already dug a very deep hole, we began to climb out.

Clinton Anderson's method, contrary to his boasts, does NOT work with every rider and every horse. As someone who started at 50, I suspect I understand how a 40 or 50 year old beginner feels - and they do NOT feel like handling lots of explosions. So if they have a horse who CA's method works with - great! I'm happy they found something that works!

However, I found something that also works. Slower, but it works with a lot less potential for explosions and injuries - and it works well with nervous or independent horses. I suspect it would work with Titan too, although I obviously will never know.

It works for trail horses. I know nothing about arena sports and have said so repeatedly on this thread.
@*Smilie* : "_taking the head away, re directing the horse , to do some familiar movements, is not punishment, done correctly_"

Some horses disagree. Even when leading them, I've noticed both Mia and Bandit become very reactive if I try to turn them in circles, but calm if I back them in a straight line. I don't know why. But it is true. From the ground, I could provoke fear and a fight by demanding they move their feet in circles, but get a lowered head and licking if I backed them up in a straight line.

@*Hondo* : "_At the risk of exposing myself to some as a complete nincompoop, yes, absolutely, if Hondo told me emphatically, "Harold, if we finish crossing this stream we're are going to die"_."

I tend to agree, but I also think a horse who has accepted responsibility for doing X will try much harder to do X than one who has been ordered to do X. I find Bandit is a braver horse if I ask him if he can do X and he says yes. It makes a huge difference in attitude when Bandit and I are working as a team to achieve X, versus when rider bsms tells Bandit to do X.

Charlotte Dujardin is one of the few dressage riders I enjoy watching. I think she has managed to form a genuine team with Valegro. Valegro is one of the few dressage horses I've seen who seems to enjoy playing the game - who looks like he is having fun. 

"I can't help but smile when I ride Valegro; I think something and he does it. I laugh and I think 'god how does he know, I didn't even ask, I just thought it.'"

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/87915c0dd77642ca8a98d8dd7ce65e39/britains-defending-dressage-champion-all-smiles-rio

I have no idea how someone can do that in an arena sport, but Charlotte Dujardin seems to have done it. I sure could not. But I can do it, or at least am starting to do it, on a trail. And I feel much safer when I feel Bandit take responsibility for X. There will be no explosion. He will do his best. If we need to flex, he'll listen. I think that was what @*jaydee* was describing with jumpers - the ability to trust your horse when you need HIM to get YOU out of trouble. It cannot be forced. It is trust and teamwork.

@*Reiningcatsanddogs* wrote, "_I can be tough with a horse and spent a good chunk of my life doing just that. Maybe it is a sign of getting older and softer, perhaps a bit of experience in that I no longer find that necessary in dealing with horses to get the results I want because I recognize a problem long before it becomes one..._"

I think a lot of older beginners - certainly me at 58 - know their body no longer has the strength and recovery ability to get away with muscling a horse around. I suspect a lot of older beginners would respond well to learning how to THINK their way around problems, and how to learn to read their horse (and encourage the horse to talk) so they could avoid explosions instead of riding right into one.


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## jgnmoose

bsms said:


> I've been doing that. But I've just ordered a book by Tom Dorrance. It seems he might talk principles more than specific techniques, and I fault CA for not discussing principles.


I guess it depends on what you mean by principles. If you mean those esoteric quotes that Tom Dorrance, Bill Dorance, Ray Hunt and Buck Brannaman are all known for, yeah Clinton Anderson doesn't do that. 



> Horses don't do wrong things - horses are never wrong. ~ Ray Hunt


Perfect example of the kind of thing you probably won't ever here Clinton Anderson say. I can't imagine him doing a show with a lady bringing her horse that bucks and rears and saying "Horses don't do wrong things, they are never wrong, mate."

I really like that quote, I'm not making fun of it by the way.


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## Hondo

jgnmoose said:


> Horses don't do wrong things - horses are never wrong. ~ Ray Hunt
> I really like that quote, I'm not making fun of it by the way.


Would Ray Hunt say that at a clinic?

I'm wondering why you like the quote and what you think Ray Hunt was really getting at.


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## Hondo

Smilie said:


> Not talking about a stream Hondo, but fast flowing river, where you are lucky to get across against the current on a horse, let alone try getting off and walking. They might find you, down stream,
> or not at all!


Oh, I see. Did not understand the details of the situation.

In that case I'd say, Ok buddy, let's go back to the side we came from where it's safer.

After we rested and discussed the situation, we'd go look for a less hazardous crossing. Man'd me fool to continue a crossing as I'm visualizing.


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## Hondo

Smilie said:


> Not talking about a stream Hondo, but fast flowing river, where you are lucky to get across against the current on a horse, let alone try getting off and walking. They might find you, down stream,
> or not at all!


Oh, I see. Did not understand the details of the situation.

In that case I'd say, Ok buddy, let's go back to the side we came from where it's safer.

After we rested and discussed the situation, we'd go look for a less hazardous crossing. Man'd me fool to continue a crossing as I'm visualizing.


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## jgnmoose

Hondo said:


> Would Ray Hunt say that at a clinic?
> 
> I'm wondering why you like the quote and what you think Ray Hunt was really getting at.


I am pretty sure that quote is from a colt starting clinic/demonstration. 

In typical fashion of these quotes it means a lot of things. In very simplistic terms it just means a horse can't be expected to know anything other than how to be a horse and how a horse should react.


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## Joel Reiter

bsms said:


> I fault CA for not discussing principles.


Clinton Anderson spends a lot of times on principles. His whole book, _Lessons Well Learned _is about principles:









"Frustration ends where knowledge begins"
"To change your horse you must first change yourself"
"To be effective, you have to be understood"
"It takes time, knowledge, experience and desire to get a well-trained horse"
"Success is just around the corner -- the trouble is, most people quite before they reach the corner"


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## Smilie

Hondo said:


> Oh, I see. Did not understand the details of the situation.
> 
> In that case I'd say, Ok buddy, let's go back to the side we came from where it's safer.
> 
> After we rested and discussed the situation, we'd go look for a less hazardous crossing. Man'd me fool to continue a crossing as I'm visualizing.


Know what happens when you cross a fast flowing river, and the horse does not keep foreward, instead even tries to turn back? You go down.
You have to keep your gaze on the opposite bank, and your horse moving,
I have made the mistake of looking down at my horse, and then not sure if he is still moving, or the river is just rushing by
I will give you an example of what I consider trust, tot he point a horse obeys you, even though his instincts tell him otherwise-again using a river,
If you read this example before, forgive me being repetitious 
My very special horse, Einstein, tore out the coronary band on the back quarter of one hoof, and ahunk of pastern. It healed, but scar tissue where that coronary band was missing, always made that area vulnerable
I took him out one spring, with hubby and his horse, for a mountain ride
Einstein had been in the mountains, but had not crossed many rivers, esp when they were up
Those rivers are strewn in the bottom with huge boulders. Hubby was leading, and because Einstein had that vulnerable heel, I made that error of looking down, trying to find a place he would miss any sharp boulders.
My husband, who had reached the other side, yelled, and I noticed with horror that Einstein and I had drifted down from the ford, so that ahead of us was a very steep and impossible bank.
Einstein's instincts told him to get to dry ground, thus try that steep climb out, but when I asked him instead, to turn back into the current, and fight it, up stream back to the ford, he obeyed. Several times, going over big boulders, against that current, we almost went down, but my horse did as I asked, and we got out okay.
That is trust and partnership, not a horse seizing control, versus having that decision making handed over to him, when the rider decides the horse is best suited to figure out a route, he himself is un sure of
There is a difference in any chain of command,of a leader handing over control to his second in control, and that person taking control

Sure, you guide a horse to a fence, steep bank, whatever, then stay out of his way, and let him get through that obstacle, but that is not the same as a horse balking, running out or taking hold of the bit and charging through.
A horse might decide a certain route is the best way through some thick trees, but without taking into account either your knees or head height
I don't know about you, but I kinda like to be able to guide my horse then, telling him, 'no, not that way, but this way, where both you and I fit under that low hanging branch!


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## Hondo

Smilie said:


> Know what happens when you cross a fast flowing river, and the horse does not keep foreward, instead even tries to turn back? You go down.


I continue my firm opinion that crossing a river where a slight slip up by the horse would easily result in the death of both horse and rider is not a river crossing that is wise to attempt.


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## Hondo

Joel Reiter said:


> I have never heard of Willis J. Powell except from you. That book was written before 1923!


Willis J. Powell believed he had found the secret of Daniel Sullivan who was the actual first named "horse whisperer".

_From Wiki: Daniel Sullivan (died 1810[1]) from Mallow, Co. Cork, Ireland, was an Irish horse trainer who specialised in rehabilitation of horses that were unresponsive to traditional methods. A large portion of his work took place in England.

Not very much is known about him, since he was secretive about his actual methods. To the people who were able to watch him at work, he appeared to frequently stand so close to the horse that they assumed he was whispering to it. For that reason he became known as the "horse whisperer."

Hope of rediscovering Daniel Sullivan's secret method inspired the American, Willis J. Powell, who wrote about his own actual practices._

I read elsewhere that the likely reason for Sullivan's secretiveness was that in those days a person that had too much ability for communicating with animals likely got it from the devil and could be subject to providing fuel for a bonfire (burning at the stake).

Powell's Method was simple enough. Wiki give a fair rendition of it but Powell goes into much more descriptive detail in his book. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willis_J._Powell

Powell would stand for hours with an out stretched arm in a small enclosure with no interruptions or distractions from the outside world. I have tried holding my arm out for a long period of time and it is difficult. Powell did not mention moving or changing arms but he did mention checking his time on a watch so he must have moved some.

The procedure was to remain as an item of curiosity until curiosity overcame the fear the horse felt until the horse on it's own volition approached the man finally touching with the nose or muzzle. 

At that point Powell would begin trying to touch and then stroke the nose or face but slowly retracting any time nervousness of the horse was sensed.

This continued until all parts of the body could be handled and stroked. Back, rump, belly, legs, etc.

At that point, the horse was gentled enough to be ridden. Without looking it up, Powell estimated the time needed at 4 to 7 hours start to finish.

Powell makes some fantastic claims which I have at times questioned but I'm being more convinced as time goes on.

I'm skipping around through a book by Lucy Rees, The Horse's Mind, where she claims that once a horse can be handled all over it is broke except for habituation of the saddle and tack.

In one short section Powell describes another method of taming wild horses that he has observed.

The trainer enters a small round pen and stands in the center. The trainer then begins to whip the horse mercilessly with the horse running around the perimeter of the pen until the horse stops and looks at the trainer and at which point the trainer drops the whip to the ground and begins to slowly approach the horse. If the horse becomes again reactive, the trainer returns to the center and resumes the whipping.

Today we call this aversive training.

Powell says this method is much faster than his taking only about two hours at which time the trainer rides off on the horse very nicely.

Powell also claims that horses gentled by this method often trembled when mounted and was fearful of many objects he met with, "and was far, very far from being the gentle, docile animal tamed by the simple, natural means made use of in my method of breaking horses".

I compare trainers, including CA, to the two methods described by Powell.

Powell died in 1848.

The book is still available on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&fi...MIA; OR, NEW SECRET TAMING HORSES&index=books


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## Smilie

Hondo, I don't know what mindless whipping has to do with this thread.
I just watched this colt starting video, and see nothing wrong
Start a few colts, and perhaps your will get it
This colt is not scared, is NOT being intimidated,nor trained through fear
If you are going to compare training methods, then use training material, and NOT fixing a problem horse in a short period


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## bsms

Joel Reiter said:


> Clinton Anderson spends a lot of times on principles. His whole book, _Lessons Well Learned _is about principles:
> 
> "Frustration ends where knowledge begins"
> "To change your horse you must first change yourself"
> "To be effective, you have to be understood"
> "It takes time, knowledge, experience and desire to get a well-trained horse"
> "Success is just around the corner -- the trouble is, most people quite before they reach the corner"


Those are not principles of training a horse.

I have no idea what Ray Hunt or Bill Dorrance have written, or if I will find them helpful. Principles, to me, are things like Tom Robert's "This will profit you. This will not profit you." or "Quiet Persistence". 

So if Bandit initiates a spin to get away, I'll use the bit & reins to extend his 180 spin into a 360 degree turn...and then wait. I don't keep spinning him to gain control, but merely make his spin away unprofitable, since he ends up facing the scary thing regardless.

Before long, he began to search for other answers - answers that WOULD "profit him". If he wanted some extra clearance, and would go by with an extra 20 feet of lateral clearance, I'd praise him and accept that compromise. If he wanted to trot past, but didn't go any faster, I'd praise him and accept that compromise. If he just could not get the nerve to go past on slack reins at all, I'd ask him for a 180 turn, and then WALK back 50,100,300 feet - whatever it took to make a dismount safe.

Then dismount and start leading. If that meant taking 10 minutes to slowly, not pulling, go closer one step at a time, that was OK. Because the end result would be that Bandit would see that what I said was not scary was, in fact, not scary. IOW, MY JUDGMENT would be proven correct - and a principle that I came up with is:

"Horses learn trust like people do - by seeing the other person's judgment is correct."

Not in a round pen. Not by teaching them to follow me around in a round pen or else. The same way you or I learn trust - by learning the other person has judgment that is worth listening to.

That is why I find Smilie's river crossing example irrelevant. No, I do not take a green horse who has no reason to trust me and demand something difficult. You start small and build up. Bandit was afraid of certain trash cans - probably based on smell. He was terrified of insecticide or herbicide sprayed on someone's yard (poison smell). He was afraid of cars parked beside the road. Of flags flapping overhead.

As I earned his trust on those, we expanded. He needed to learn to go down a steep hill where he could fall - so we tried small ones, and are building up. He is learning to trust my judgment when I ask him to push thru brambles. He grew up where the tallest plant was 6 inches high. He had to learn to trust me in places where the plants or the sides of the wash leave him with no escape route.

But I want him to warn me of rattlesnakes or javelina or if the footing is too bad, so I don't object to him telling me he is concerned. How WE proceed is then based on what WE think makes sense - a "mutually acceptable compromise" - which I consider another training principle. And it is rooted in what I consider a valuable training principle I didn't appreciate until recently - 'The Power of WE'. I've come to believe a horse LOVES to form a working team with a human. We offer them a type of team work and friendship they rarely get from other horses, yet one they LOVE.

That was suggested to me by this passage from an Austrian Cavalryman written in 1868:

"._..There is another thing to be considered with regard to the horse's character - it loves to exercise its powers, and it possesses a great spirit of emulation; it likes variety of scene and amusement ; and under a rider that understands how to indulge it in all this without overtaxing its powers, will work willingly to the last gasp,which is what entitles it to the name of a noble and generous animal...

..Horses don't like to be ennuye, and will rather stick at home than go out to be bored ; they like amusement, variety, and society : give them their share of these, but never in a pedantic way, and avoid getting into a groove of any kind, either as to time or place, especially with young animals. It is evident that all these things must be taken into account and receive due attention, whether it be our object to prevent or to get rid of some bad habit a horse may have acquired ; and a little reflection will generally suffice to point out the means of remedying something that, if left to itself, would grow into a confirmed habit, or if attacked with the energy of folly and violence, would suddenly culminate
in the grand catastrophe of restiveness..._" - On Seats and Saddles, by Francis Dwyer, Major of Hussars in the Imperial Austrian Service (1868)

I'm finding - as I learn and experiment - that my horse seems to love playing a game - when he is on my team. Not a game in the Parelli sense, but a more genuine game. Or work, if you prefer. But a horse loves to exercise its power - be it cutting cattle, tackling a hard spot on the trail, jumping, running poles, etc. I think some have figured out how to bring that sense of playing a game into dressage or reining, although I wouldn't have that talent. And I think horses love "WE" - WE are doing this TOGETHER.

If you can find a way - and principles are not formulas - to get the horse thinking, "We are doing X together", then horses start to WANT to do X, and they then do X to the best of their ability - because "_they like amusement, variety, and society_". I didn't appreciate this with Mia, but I"m finding it a powerful way to motivate Bandit.

So if there is a "scary rock" ahead, but Bandit has accepted that WE want to go forward, I find Bandit is much bolder AND much easier to control and guide than if it is ME pushing HIM forward. A horse who decides he is part of a TEAM crossing the river, and his rider is counting on him, won't spook nearly as easily, and will be more amenable to suggestions on HOW to get across, than a horse who is being ORDERED to cross - or else!

I need to add this: If the horse cannot say "No", then the horse is not REALLY part of the team. Thus a paradox - I have to give up some control in order to achieve better control...


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## Smilie

You read Hondo, so if you truly feel a horse is broke, as per Lucy Rees, just from being handled, try it.
I handled my horses, and yes, it lays the groundwork, but if you think the horse is broke,except for habituation of tack, good luck!


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## Hondo

Smilie said:


> Hondo, I don't know what mindless whipping has to do with this thread.


Very well, then I shall explain. It was an example, the only example in Powell's treatise, of aversive training.

And in my view, aversive training is part and partial to any pro/con discussion of CA, which the use of is what many CA detractors have a problem with.

This is not to suggest that CA ONLY uses aversive training, but he does use it as HE decides the occasion demands it.


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## Smilie

Well, BSMS, I like to get a horse broke first, and then ride him out
I am also not beating ahrose to cross a river or else- if you need to do that, better go back and put some basics on, as a horse or you, are not going to fare well, , if you try to physically force him
NO BSMS, I do have that trust in my horse, PLUS respect, which builds that trust in the first place, before I ask my horse to cross
A horse that trusts and respects you, will cross that bog or river,when you tell him it is safe, which has to be based on the fact that you indeed know that bog has a bottom, and that river is crossed regularly at those crossings
If it is windy, there are bear signs, and if my horse senses there might be a bear in those willow, and I am not sure there is not, I , like you, listen to my horse
I know you don't seem to get the difference, as we have been round and round them again and again, as if I don't get trust in my horses, and somhow, even at my age now, just ride them through force and intimidation
Of course you ride a horse out to expose them to stuff, build their confidence, but you first put basis on a horse,in a controlled area.
You are talking of riding a green broke horse out, like Bandit, where that horse has at least been ridden/started. If you wish to get on a colt for the first time, and ride him out, be my guest
I don't think CA or any trainer will ever suggest you just ride forever in an arena or roundpen!. In fact, they will tell you that part of training a solid horse, is to ride him out, soon as he is ready, regularly , even if in a performance training program


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## Hondo

Smilie said:


> You read Hondo, so if you truly feel a horse is broke, as per Lucy Rees, just from being handled, try it.
> I handled my horses, and yes, it lays the groundwork, but if you think the horse is broke,except for habituation of tack, good luck!


Perhaps you would like to share your thoughts with Lucy Rees?

What she thinks is many times more meaningful than anything I might think.


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## Smilie

Hondo said:


> Very well, then I shall explain. It was an example, the only example in Powell's treatise, of aversive training.
> 
> And in my view, aversive training is part and partial to any pro/con discussion of CA, which the use of is what many CA detractors have a problem with.
> 
> This is not to suggest that CA ONLY uses aversive training, but he does use it as HE decides the occasion demands it.


I've been watching the series, where i posted the first one above, while sitting here, reading some of the posts, on colt starting, and please point out what you find wrong


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## Smilie

You, no relation or trust taught or used.
I think many that have problem with CA, do not really understand what they are seeing, or grasp when certain methods are used.


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## Kaifyre

Yeah I second that opinion Smilie .... just because you can handle a horse all over doesn't make him broke, by any stretch of the imagination. There is a period of time when the horse must be desensitized to wearing tack, seeing you on his back, etc. But that doesn't make him broke either. I posted this on another thread, can't remember which one, but I'll put it here too.

In my opinion, it's experiences that break horses. For example, you can have the brokest, safest horse to ride in the world, who has only ever been ridden in an arena. Take him on a trail, or outside his comfort zone, and suddenly he's afraid of things, whirling around, and generally not broke. To get a horse truly broke you have to show him different things, cross water, climb rocks, move past scary objects, do patterns, etc etc etc. You have to give him all these experiences that come together and form a cohesive whole, i.e. a broke horse.

CA also likes to expose his horses to many different things, and do many different things with them under saddle, to get a broke horse.

-- Kai


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## Smilie

Hondo said:


> Perhaps you would like to share your thoughts with Lucy Rees?
> 
> What she thinks is many times more meaningful than anything I might think.


frankly, never heard of her, but since I was curious, looked at afew video clips, and not impressed
If I wanted to delve inttt he mind of horses, beyond what I have learned, working and reading them over a life time, think I prefer that of 'Evidence Based Horsemanship


Evidence-Based Horsemanship


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## Smilie

Her studies on wild (feral ) horses, trying to relate them directly to domestic horses is flawed , right from the beginning
First, most of our domestic herds don't have a herd stallion, and we also wean those foals, versus a herd stallion driving out mature stud colts, killing foals of other stallions, and a progression of natural weaning occurring, as that mare is ready to have anew foal to nurture
Open space allows herd to form, bachelor stallions to find territory outside that of a herd stallion, and no imposition of limited feed, or feeding schedule, so feral horses don't need to have food aggression, often observed in our domestic horses, due tot he very lifestyle we impose on them
Survival of the fittest, and nature culling, as in the wild again, does not apply.
Thus, how in the heck can you even try to interpolate herd interactions, between feral horses and domestic horses, with such a basic diverse difference, which shapes how horses interact, beyond the basic prey/herd mentality????


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## jaydee

Smilie - As someone who was successfully breaking horses and ponies suitable for purposes ranging from first ridden for novices through to hunting and eventing before CA was out of junior school I can assure you that I am perfectly capable of recognizing someone who is or isn't amazing at what they do.
I also know when force used is correct and justified and when its crossed the line.
OK so some of his basic stuff is good but then he's doing things that have been done already so just imitating others maybe with a few little tweaks to add his own personal touches so noting original and none of that makes up for the fact that he doesn't know when enough is enough as he clearly showed with his poor handling of the horse that threw itself over backwards because it was so confused it didn't know what else to do and the blind horse where his handling was as close as it gets to being abusive.
People like CA make most of their living out of novice owners and riders who have gotten out of their depth and for whatever reason don't have a good hands on trainer to turn too not out of experienced seasoned horse owners/riders
If anyone has found him useful and they've progressed because of that then great - but putting him on a pedestal and hanging a halo over his head is a step too far. 
An experienced trainer that doesn't need to use extreme methods, shortcuts or unnecessary force to get a horse to where they want it to be will have no time for a lot of his stuff and would already be well versed in the useful basics so that leaves very little to set him apart from the rest
As they say
'You can fool some of the people all of the time...............................'
I'm not one of those people.


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## Foxhunter

Smilie said:


> Well, BSMS, I like to get a horse broke first, and then ride him out
> I am also not beating ahrose to cross a river or else- if you need to do that, better go back and put some basics on, as a horse or you, are not going to fare well, , if you try to physically force him
> NO BSMS, I do have that trust in my horse, PLUS respect, which builds that trust in the first place, before I ask my horse to cross
> A horse that trusts and respects you, will cross that bog or river,when you tell him it is safe, which has to be based on the fact that you indeed know that bog has a bottom, and that river is crossed regularly at those crossings
> If it is windy, there are bear signs, and if my horse senses there might be a bear in those willow, and I am not sure there is not, I , like you, listen to my horse
> I know you don't seem to get the difference, as we have been round and round them again and again, as if I don't get trust in my horses, and somhow, even at my age now, just ride them through force and intimidation
> Of course you ride a horse out to expose them to stuff, build their confidence, but you first put basis on a horse,in a controlled area.
> You are talking of riding a green broke horse out, like Bandit, where that horse has at least been ridden/started. If you wish to get on a colt for the first time, and ride him out, be my guest
> I don't think CA or any trainer will ever suggest you just ride forever in an arena or roundpen!. In fact, they will tell you that part of training a solid horse, is to ride him out, soon as he is ready, regularly , even if in a performance training program


As someone who has probably started more young horses than most, I can, hand on heart, say that the first time I rode them was _never_ in a round pen or arena. I would have long reined them out and about, ponied them and then just got on them and ridden them out and about - usually on their own. 

I take no nonsense but I also will not knock a horse around unless it is really spoiled. 

I have never ridden the extreme trails Smilie, and other have, don't get them where I have been! However, even my young horses will go where I ask them because they trust me. When it comes to riding down a steep hill, I trust that they do not want to fall and let them get on with it. 

In all the years of working this way I have never had a horse even put its back up or attempt to buck, they have not napped, spooked or been anything other than green.


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## Joel Reiter

jaydee said:


> putting him on a pedestal and hanging a halo over his head is a step too far.


Wow. 

This thread has gone on for 30 pages and in all the posts I haven't seen anything close to putting Clinton Anderson on a pedestal or hanging a halo over his head. Would you please tell us what the heck you are even talking about?


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## Joel Reiter

Hondo said:


> I'm skipping around through a book by Lucy Rees, The Horse's Mind, where she claims that once a horse can be handled all over it is broke except for habituation of the saddle and tack.


I hope nobody takes this as advice. When my big guy was three he could be handled all over, saddled, would open his mouth for the bridle, and seemed completely at ease. A girl who had done some horse training took this to mean he was ready to be ridden. Ten minutes later she was on her way to the ER for an MRI of her brain.


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## bsms

Joel Reiter said:


> ...This thread has gone on for 30 pages and in all the posts I haven't seen anything close to putting Clinton Anderson on a pedestal or hanging a halo over his head. Would you please tell us what the heck you are even talking about?


Well, I've said a lot of good things about CA on this thread, but I'm told I am bashing him because I don't agree with every technique he teaches. I've said some of his techniques work well for some horses but don't work well with others - and feel like I'm being branded a heretic.


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## jaydee

@Joel Reiter Quote (auto quote function still isn't working for me)
_This thread has gone on for 30 pages and in all the posts I haven't seen anything close to putting Clinton Anderson on a pedestal or hanging a halo over his head. Would you please tell us what the heck you are even talking about?_
As you've already noticed I haven't accused anyone on this thread of putting CA on a pedestal with a halo (though we have had some members defending him with certain amount of passion while avoiding to make comment on the negatives that have been pointed out) but as with all of these trainers there are quite large groups of people out there that do hang on to every word he preaches and every method he pushes regardless of its worth and they get very angry when anyone points out that something he's doing is of no value or could even be harmful to a horse.
There's nothing wrong with using a training method that's good and effective but because one thing works it shouldn't blind novices to all the things that trainer does that are bad.
Smile suggested that maybe some people aren't experienced enough to see how what he's doing is correct but I would say the opposite - some people aren't experienced enough to see that a lot of what he does is far from correct


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## Smilie

jaydee said:


> Smilie - As someone who was successfully breaking horses and ponies suitable for purposes ranging from first ridden for novices through to hunting and eventing before CA was out of junior school I can assure you that I am perfectly capable of recognizing someone who is or isn't amazing at what they do.
> I also know when force used is correct and justified and when its crossed the line.
> OK so some of his basic stuff is good but then he's doing things that have been done already so just imitating others maybe with a few little tweaks to add his own personal touches so noting original and none of that makes up for the fact that he doesn't know when enough is enough as he clearly showed with his poor handling of the horse that threw itself over backwards because it was so confused it didn't know what else to do and the blind horse where his handling was as close as it gets to being abusive.
> People like CA make most of their living out of novice owners and riders who have gotten out of their depth and for whatever reason don't have a good hands on trainer to turn too not out of experienced seasoned horse owners/riders
> If anyone has found him useful and they've progressed because of that then great - but putting him on a pedestal and hanging a halo over his head is a step too far.
> An experienced trainer that doesn't need to use extreme methods, shortcuts or unnecessary force to get a horse to where they want it to be will have no time for a lot of his stuff and would already be well versed in the useful basics so that leaves very little to set him apart from the rest
> As they say
> 'You can fool some of the people all of the time...............................'
> I'm not one of those people.


I think I have said right from the beginning, as to where CA and other NH trainers, that train people to train horses are.
I think I have said over and over again, that I have not either followed his DVDS, watched even his videos, until threads about him got so prominent here.
I have, always taken clinics from those proven in their discipline, and yes indeadly', have learned through experience, as I never had the funds to send horses to trainers, thus learned to train them myself
Never got to world championships, as the horses I trained, were horses I raised, improving breeding as the horses, not outside funds, allowed
Now, far as CA, he has basic good principles, not new ones, not ones he invented per say, but They are a lot more practical , for every day horse handling, then some of the abstract type of stuff that so draws people new to horses.
I never discredited anything you have done in the UK, and for all I know, you are still leaping fences, and that was never something I disputed
I am not putting a halo on his head, nor am I a groupie of his, for goodness sakE!
He is in a commercial field, targeting those people you indicated. Ever see me recommend him as a reining trainer? 
What I do see, if some kind of rabid attack, being blind as to many other trainers, who truly can be assumed abusive, so perhaps we should move on to some other trainer, just to open a free playing field
Parelli has been done, so how about that German guy, heichfield, or something. I'm German, so can't say I have a bias there!


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## Smilie

Foxhunter said:


> As someone who has probably started more young horses than most, I can, hand on heart, say that the first time I rode them was _never_ in a round pen or arena. I would have long reined them out and about, ponied them and then just got on them and ridden them out and about - usually on their own.
> 
> I take no nonsense but I also will not knock a horse around unless it is really spoiled.
> 
> I have never ridden the extreme trails Smilie, and other have, don't get them where I have been! However, even my young horses will go where I ask them because they trust me. When it comes to riding down a steep hill, I trust that they do not want to fall and let them get on with it.
> 
> In all the years of working this way I have never had a horse even put its back up or attempt to buck, they have not napped, spooked or been anything other than green.


All of us that started somewhere, and when we were young, never did the ground work we now do. I started horses for many years, studs included, in a pasture, with mares on the other side
None of my horses in those days even learned how to lunge. I, like you, got on and rode them, out across the fields, heck, down beside busy highways
I never even had a corral, less alone around pen,.
I was also in my 20s and 30s then. It is also true, that the horses I did some more ground work on, in the future, were softer, as you can't help hanging on a horse more, that knows nothing about guiding, or leg aid
Because we got on green horses, out in an open field, should that method then now be recommended to people getting into horses? Heck, I never rode with a helmet, still don't most times-so should that also be promoted?
I am sure, you like I, have some physical fall out from those times, but we never worried how those incidents would perhaps affect our body as we aged
I had that spoiled anglo Arabian stallion, as a teenager, that any knowledgeable parent never would have allowed their kid to ride-a horse that reared and went over backwards, among many other things-yup, i survived, but could have ended otherwise


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## Hondo

Smilie said:


> I've been watching the series, where i posted the first one above, while sitting here, reading some of the posts, on colt starting, and please point out what you find wrong


Sorry, but I'm on a metered connection and Windows 10 is running my monthly bill way way high. I'll be back on Windows 7 in a week or less. It'll be a pain as at this point I'll have to do a factory reset which will mean years of W7 updates and reloading a bunch of stuff-after I get it backed up.

I think the people who don't prefer CA's methods are those that prefer less aversive training than he uses. I'm one of those.

This argument was going on in the ancient days of Greece in the times of Simon and Xenophon, in the times of Powell, today and all points in between.

I doubt if anybody's mind or position has been changed since the onset of this thread although I for one have learned things that I'm glad to have learned.

Those that claim to know such things say that the human personality is formed and locked in by age five short of some catastrophic event in their life. And that personality I think is related to their world view which in turn is related to the choice in dealing with animals.

I have been very soft on animals I know from age seven and was chided about it often during my youth.

CA does a lot of stuff with out using aversive measures. Some people just feel strongly that he used too much too often and is at times too cavalier about it to suit that particular persons world view or animal view or whatever.

This could go on forever until what was said was forgotten and then began to be repeated.

I just re-read Powell for the first time in two years. I got some things a little off above but the gist was correct. I did note in the re-reading that provided the horse had been handled by others and spoiled he would not hesitate to smack the horse for biting. But that's about all.

Oh, and get this. In a few paragraphs about treating A SKITTISH HORSE. He dismounts if the horse doesn't settle in 3-4 minutes. Leads the horse up to the object, lets him check it out, then leads him back, remounts and rides up to the object. May take 2-3 times and then never has to repeat.

Did not mention what to do with a skittish horse in the middle of a life threatening raging river, but from other stuff he said I speculate that he would have worked up to that thereby avoiding a skittish horse in the river.


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## Hondo

Smilie said:


> You read Hondo, so if you truly feel a horse is broke, as per Lucy Rees, just from being handled, try it.
> I handled my horses, and yes, it lays the groundwork, but if you think the horse is broke,except for habituation of tack, good luck!


I AM SO SLOW IN RECALL!! 

Failed to mention, I have seen four colts either ridden or sat on for the very first time since I came here year before last.

None of them bucked or did anything other than smile. But that gentle treatment went on for a few months rather than a few hours.

The last born last spring, Sage Heart, a beautiful filly with unnerving intelligence and a curiosity that doesn't end, I got to hold with my arms around within hours of her birth.

She has already been sat on for a minute or less at a time by a 98 pound lady. She is almost as big as her two year old big brother.

And I actually trained my older son's pony to ride 48 years ago. Just fooling around with it. Used steps to be able to lean my chest over his back. Pet. This probably went on for 6 months. I wasn't even trying to train him. Just fooling around with him when I could. Wasn't long before I was laying across him. And then sitting. He was too small for and adult to ride but I walked him a few feet at a time.

I haven't been training horses and going to shows but I was raised on a farm and have been around animals all of my formative years.

I'm not a city kid who got a horse in his old age. We raised all of our food. Mom canned it in the hot hot summer. That food was raised with a pair of draft horses. Pigs, chickens, cows, etc. I remember grandmother making soap from fat scraped off of hog intestines.

So thanks for the wish of good luck on a colt. Already been there done that. No problems noted.


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## Smilie

Again, there is more than one way to train ahorse, and most types that take part in events like the colt starting challenges, make a point of telling those watching, that home on the ranch, they would use a much slower progression.
It is not difficult to start colts and never have them buck, BUT any horse can buck, given the right circumstances, and then it is nice to be able to perhaps take their head away
Some lines of horses are also more prone to buck, when first started.
Einstein's daM and our stud produced many full siblings for us, that never offered to buck. In fact< I started Einstein while I was on chemo, so not exactly in tip top condition! I think I rode him twice in the round pen, and then just across our winter hay field. He never learned to lunge, as I did not bother to teach him
Buck B , and a host of others that start colts for ;an audience, get on those colts most times on the first day=it is part of what they all do, and not just CA
In fact, I was a bit shocked watching Buck Branahan,to see him rope the rear leg of an aggressive stallion, so his assistant could get on. Sure sets up such ahorse to try and get that person, which he did. Advise should hav ebeen to geld that horse, turn him out for a month, and then start from scratch-yet he also tried to give specatator satisfaction and meet their expectations. Why has that segment of the buck film, not bother anyone else here besides me????
I had many colts that both my son and I started, that never bucked
Perhaps there are times to get off a horse, esp as one gets older, LOL! It is something I try to avoid, as it also gives some horses the association that if they act fearful, the rider gets off
Anyway< I feel your internet pain , as we used to get charged major bucks for being over allowed data, which did not take much, watching just an odd video
We are now on un limited flat rate, thanks to a tower we can assess.


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## Smilie

This is an example of the 'usual winter' arena' I rode young horses in. I have a concussion from one of those times, not because I was bucked off, but a three year old slipped and went down, as I was teaching her flying lead changes
Below, is our stallion, Cody as a three year old, with me riding him in our winter hay field


Picture I used, along with avideo, of athree year old filly, I soid to OTtawa Ontario .


She was bought be an American Ambassador"s wife, sight unseen. She was just given permission to ride again, after Uterine cancer. She wrote how happy they were with her, and that they were taking her home to Florida with them.
JUst two examples, and you don't start colts, sell them, and have those buyers stay in touch, telling you how happy they are, and that the horse we sold them is 'family'
Far as wishing you luck, riding a colt, you missed akey point- as I said without first getting some basics on that colt, before riding him out. Yes, I did it the other way, years ago, but I no longer bounce as well, nor are my reflexes as fast
I don't think most people that follow CA, are at the point where they can just get on a colt and ride him out, or they would not need CA or someone like him, in the first place.
Anyway, pages and pages later, I think this thread deserves to be put to rest like an old horse.


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## Hondo

@Smilie I have not read anything about starting a colt but the concept has always puzzled me. To my thinking a colt would be best started the day it is born in bonding with the human. After that it doesn't seem there should be a point where the colt is started. It seems it should be so progressive that a starting point would not really exist.

But that does take a lot of time. It has to be rewarding or it's really be a lot of work.


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## Smilie

Hondo said:


> @Smilie I have not read anything about starting a colt but the concept has always puzzled me. To my thinking a colt would be best started the day it is born in bonding with the human. After that it doesn't seem there should be a point where the colt is started. It seems it should be so progressive that a starting point would not really exist.
> 
> But that does take a lot of time. It has to be rewarding or it's really be a lot of work.


Well, yes, but the word to 'start', has been used to replace the word,'break', to denote a gentler way of training, versus bucking them out, as on the good ole days of the range, and implies to start under saddle
Much of the ground work done with a young horse,before he comes of an age to 'start; lays some of the foundation, such as learning trust, basic leading, tying, giving to pressure correctly, as you noted, just like some basics in a young child, prepares him for formal schooling, but horse people have the word association 'to start a colt', as meaning teaching a horse old enough to be ridden


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## bsms

I doubt many of the folks watching CA videos are starting a horse from the very beginning. The target audience seems to be people who bought a horse who was, at a minimum, supposed to be broke. And from the little I've seen, a horse can be thoroughly "broke", be an ex-lesson horse or ex-ranch horse, for example, yet be a more dangerous ride than a lot of green broke horses.

This was my youngest, years ago, after our Arabian mare Lilly was gradually broke to ride (starting at age 6). I then rode her for about a month, and then my youngest started riding her. I'm riding Mia in a sidepull and jump saddle in the background:










Lilly was a "Please and Thank You" horse. Always say please and thank you, and she'd give her best. Get pushy, and she would push back - but my youngest was also a please and thank you rider, so no worries! Lilly had about a month of riding on her when my youngest started learning to ride by riding her - and I had no problems trusting Lilly. Lilly might not have always understood what was wanted, but she was unfailingly polite to her rider!

OTOH, I wouldn't trust my youngest daughter now, after 8 years, riding Bandit in the open. I don't know if it is his personality or his CA video training, but he is far more likely to tell a rider to go to heck, and buck or spin or fight, than Lilly was while green broke. But he is doing it a lot less now than he was a year ago, which makes me suspect his training had something to do with it. Maybe both. I think his personality requires compromise - unless one enjoys a fight. But I doubt he'll ever be a polite horse.


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## Smilie

Agree that this topic got completed convoluted, somehow with people watching CA work with problem horses, and interpolating that to starting a horse correctly, time frame wise, ect
Far as a good minded colt started correctly, and riding a problem horse that first needs to have bad training/riding addressed, before any real good training can begin, plus that horse never will have a clean slate for a mind, thus can revert to bad habits, given the right circumstances, is a basic truth, far as horses, long recognized.
That is also why trainers would rather have a horse little handled, then the horse that has been handled and ridden in correctly
I believe Bandit was green when you traded him for Mia, so miles under saddle, wet saddle blankets are sure going to help.
One reason I enjoyed riding the horse out , that I both raised and trained, versus the few I did ride, who someone else messed up, was that I knew exactly what to expect, and any problems were only due to my training
As I said before, I mainly rode horses that I myself trained, having bought mainly young prospects, like weanlings and yearlings, raising the rest

However, I did buy that mare off the y=track, when I was first getting a band of broodmares together. Someone messed her up badly-maybe in the starting . She halter pulled, reared, went over backwards, and spooked very badly
I did get her to stop halter pulling, and most times she no longer rared, except, when a horse passed her at speed, and you held her back-she was then back in starting gate mode.
I trail rode her, as we had a limited number of horses in those days. She was never a horse you could relax on, and would spend a lot of time spooking and trying to spin around. In those days, I was young, knew little about body control, and just rode her through stuff
Of course, there was also the spoiled anglo Arabian stud, that my mis guided step father bought me, when I was just a teenager
The young horses I started, were better and better, every year that I learned more, and were way , way more fun to ride out, and were horses I put my kids on, when they were learning to ride, trusting those horses.
Thus, I am in total agreement that a green horse, who never learned bad habits, who is ridden with consistency, is a far easier and better horse to ride then one someone has allowed to become spoiled


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## Smilie

This is Annie, that TB X app cross, Who had been on the track.
Her problems were not due to her mind, as she produced some really nice babies for me, that were very sensible, easy to train. Someone had messed her up very badly. 


A son of hers, was the first stallion we stood. I showed him to championships in many events, from reining, western riding to cattle and games c;asses, plus rode him on many mountain miles


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## Smilie

Ahorse, that I sold as atwo year old, to a youth, and who that youth, now a university student still owns, and has won many events on her, ridden her on lots of trail miles, and has used her to work cattle, as the family has land in various locations, and lots of cattle.
She is also a full sister to my gelding EInstein, and many others, that went on to being great youth and non pro horses
The horse is pictured with my daughter in law, and the picture, I think, shows the kind of relationships I fostered, and have with my horses


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## Smilie

My kids, on horses i both trained and rode first. I'm on the son of that race mare, and the horse being packed, is the one my son is riding in the first picture.
After I started him, he was my hubby's trail horse, then my oldest son rode him, and he also doubled as apack horse, when needed


The horse my oldest son is on here, is a daughter of that mare off the track, who I raised and trained


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## bsms

In Clinton Anderson's defense, I cussed at Bandit today. He didn't feel like riding between some trash cans. He wasn't scared. Just not in the mood. So after asking nicely, I said something my pastor would not appreciate hearing, then popped Bandit in the gut and we trotted thru fast. Then turned around, and did it again. And kept doing it until he was willing to walk thru with slack reins and a relaxed attitude.

When we got back to our little arena, Bandit didn't want to canter. Some more cussing. Then he decided he would canter even if I asked for a trot. Some more cussing. When he was giving me a decent jog, we stopped for the day. I was sweating, and we went for less than an hour. He was sweating good too!

Unlike Lilly, and even unlike Mia, Bandit is not a polite horse. Don't know if it is his past training, breeding or what. Gelding vs mare? My purebred Arabian mares were both please and thank you horses, provided Mia didn't lose her mind from fear - and THAT is very different from rebellion, and much of what Clinton Anderson deals with is rebellion, not fear.

Some people got upset when he did something with Titan. I watched and didn't see anything wrong. I've never ridden a stallion, but even Bandit has been known to give me the middle hoof salute at times. Like today.

My GOAL is a partnership, but sometimes getting to that goal can involve something much more dominant. And like many of CA's viewers, I'll never start my own horse. I deal with Craigslist horses. Mia had excellent blood lines, but she came from Craigslist, and I traded her for Bandit. Lilly was a Craigslist horse. Cowboy was free. Trooper was from a ranch owned by my oldest friend. All of them had/have issues. Heck - I have issues!

I'm not a fan of CA, but I understand that sometimes you have to be rougher now so you can be gentler later. At least, I do.


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## Kaifyre

^ That's very much my attitude and general way of going when I train or ride. : )

-- Kai


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## jaydee

I don't think anyone has said that its wrong to correct a horse but that correction has to be appropriate for the situation, it has to be immediate and the handler needs to be in control of themselves (as in not acting in temper or fear) 
The horse shouldn't be corrected for doing the 'wrong thing' if it hasn't been previously trained to know the 'right thing' and the understanding of that training is well established though occasionally a dangerous behavior has to be nipped very firmly in the bud and a good whack is the only way to do it.
When we took Flo on we knew she would be a challenge because she'd been badly hand reared, at 3 years old had never been with other horses and had no concept of boundaries. She wasn't nasty tempered, she just didn't know that things like striking out with her front legs when she got impatient was wrong because no one had ever told her it was wrong. After a very short time we realized that the only way to let her know that her behavior was unacceptable was to treat her like our old gelding did when she tried her act on with him - I hit her once with a sawn off broom handle, so hard it felt as if I'd broken my wrist. She never did another wrong thing towards a human again and we had her until she died in her 20's
I stayed calm and non reactive, I didn't need to run her around a pen until she was exhausted or yank her face or her mouth or spin her around in circles until she flipped over backwards or flap a rope at her. I just let her know with no room for doubt that she couldn't behave like a spoilt brat any more and she got the message instantly.


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## Smilie

Yes, of course , you don't get after a horse if he does not understand as to what is being asked, and one hard correction, esp with a stallion, versus constant picking, gets the message across, plus then treating the horse like nothing happened
I don't see endless, mindless spinning, though advocated by CA. I see him getting that yield, and then rewarding. You gain nothing if you don't reward at the right time, when that horse makes an attempt to give, nor do you get anywhere if you quit, before the horse gives you that try.`
When a horse, that you started for the beginning esp, does the same thing over and over gain, then you have to ask yourself if perhaps you are trying the same approach over and over again, that did not yield the results you wanted, and are expecting a different outcome, with repetition
If whatever you are doing, gets you the kind of horse you like to ride, then stick with that program 
Long time ago, I was in the camp that complained about halter horses. It took a reining trainer,thus someone completely removed from the halter industry, to make me have a different outlook
He asked me why I worried about whether halter horses would ride, ect, because if I bred like to like (ie performance horses to performance horses ), the direction of the halter horse industry would not affect me
He went on to say that if those showing upper end halter, just wanted to feed and lead them, that was their right, same as any other person's right, in whatever they were doing with their horses (abuse, of course, excluded)
So, If Ca does not work for you, only some parts have application, then do as with any other trainer-use what works for you and your horse, from each, and have your own program that works for you and your horses.


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## Roman

Smilie said:


> Yes, of course , you don't get after a horse if he does not understand as to what is being asked,


Which is what CA fails to see in horses. In multiple videos, such as the one where the horse flips over and with the blind horse - and I'm even sure with Titan too -, both horses were confused and he didn't see it; yet thinks the horse is just being disrespectful and lazy (yet a rider of 6 years like me can clearly see it >.>).


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## Greenmeadows

In the dvds of CA, I think he shows more "feel" than in some of the t v programs. Maybe because he can have more time?


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## bsms

Just read a little of Ray Hunt's book "Think Harmony with Horses". I can see where someone who is overhorsed and needs help NOW would find it useless. But I can also see how some beginners might do well to start with Clinton Anderson, and then move on to Ray Hunt. I like his emphasis on the horse's mind - similar to Harry Whitney, and in many ways in line with what Mia & Bandit have been teaching me.

I also like his heavy emphasis on rewarding the smallest try. 

_"It isn't the big thing you do. It is the little things that make the big difference. Remember to LET him find it; you don't make him find it. Settle for the smallest change and the slightest try; first thing you know it will become meaningful to him._"

That would have been meaningless when I was struggling darn near to stay alive on Mia! To be honest, during the first few years, I don't think I'd have been ready or able to understand what was meant or why it was important. I needed HELP, and that would have been too "zen" for me! The same was true of Harry Whitney. The first time I read his comment about '_a mind between two reins_', I poo-poohed it! Way too touchy-feelly, zen, esoteric...you name it. It took a lot longer for me to see how Harry Whitney's comment applied to Mia, or even what it meant!

But I can also see how Ray Hunt might apply to Bandit and I, now, which is very different from Mia and I a few years back! It makes me wish I could teleport back in time, and ride Mia THEN with what I have learned SINCE - and learned, in part, BECAUSE I rode Mia for those years! Wouldn't it be nice if we could just erase any mistakes we made learning, and do over? 

Poor Mia! :frown_color: She deserved better than me!​


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## Hondo

@bsms

What happened to "The Horse Is Never Wrong?".

Once we were coming home late when I was about 10. My dad dropped me off at the property entrance to drive the milk cows in while he went on to the house and got the machines and stuff ready.

I had stomach issues in those days and had a terrible stomach ache. He thought I was goldbricking. It was terribly painful but I made it.

I don't think a stomach ache would cause a problem with the barrels. And I don't know your horse. I do know if that happened with Hondo at some point I would have dismounted, did some scratching in some favorite places, and asked, "What's wrong buddy?"

I can tell you are tender, gentle, and caring toward your horses as am I. But as you, I am a predator with all the inborn inclinations. And I have done as you did, but not in the last year that I immediately recall.

And each time I did, it took a bit of time to regain the place that I had been. Happily, Hondo is very forgiving and knows my better side well.

Since you got so much support for your reactions, I just felt compelled to offer another side which I hope you will tolerate well.


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## Hondo

bsms said:


> But I can also see how some beginners might do well to start with Clinton Anderson, and then move on to Ray Hunt.


If I'd started on Hondo with the little I've seen of CA, I likely would not be cluttering up this thread. I'd have given up. Hondo was a throw away horse too dangerous to ride above a walk.

Rimmey was close behind. I would not have even been able to catch Rimmey after a day or two. Now I can walk up to him anytime in the field, halter him, pick up all four feet providing he hasn't already picked them up for me before I got there.

Many beginners, I think, have a problem because they think a horse is just a big dog. The beginners need a whole bunch of training about what a horse is and what a horse is not. But that does not translate that they need to start getting rough. They don't know enough to get rough without messing up the horse even worse.

The beginners need to be approached as patiently and worked with as slowly as the problem horse.

I had advanced age and declining testosterone on my side or it may have not went as well for me even without CA.

And I do unapologetically feel it has gone very very well. I made my tenth trip hauling salt uneventfully day before yesterday. I am so overwhelmed and so very very grateful to the horses for making that happen for me.


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## bsms

"_What happened to "The Horse Is Never Wrong?_""

I don't think the horse is never wrong, just as I don't think I am never wrong. I'm not thrilled with today's ride, but Bandit has a very different personality than either Lilly or Mia. In some ways, I really like him. There is some toughness there and that isn't all bad. But either due to genetics or training, he'll sometimes tell me to go to heck...and that is wrong. I may deserve it sometimes, but certainly not always.

I believe in giving the horse freedom within boundaries. One of those boundaries, for me, is that the horse doesn't get to decide if we are going to do something today. I know he preferred to stay in our little arena and eat the grass that has sprung up due to recent rains.

But I believe in "mutually acceptable compromise", and standing next to him and letting him stuff his mouth for two hours wasn't an acceptable compromise to me! Ray Hunt might tell me I needed to let Bandit find the answer. I think the "answer" is sometimes "_Just get your butt in gear and do it!_"

If that makes me a fraud or hypocrite...so be it. But just as "_We do not spin and run away_" is a boundary, sometimes (usually!) "_We keep going_" is a boundary. I may flex some on the path we take, or the speed, but Bandit doesn't get to decide to turn around and go eat for a few hours. Not on my time. If that makes him ****y, then maybe he'll get ****ed on some too. On page one, Ray Hunt writes, "*When you ask your horse to do something it should be his idea. This is the goal.*" That sounds nice, but MY goal was to go ride. Didn't have a choice to ride yesterday. Won't have time tomorrow. "_So...yeah, we're riding, Bandit. And if it isn't your idea for today...oh well. We're using the Nike approach today, Bandit, not Ray Hunt's, so - Just Do It.._."

Maybe my Inner CA was coming to the surface...mg:


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## Hondo

@bsms

Well, what can I say, we are two different people, as most folks are. Different things grab our attention. Perhaps usually those we already agree with.

One of the first things I grabbed on to early on was to not go to a horse with a cut and dried plan for the day unless really going to work as in a cattle roundup. Even then, things can change. So much so that the person I was doing the round ups with always began the day by saying, "Ok Harold, what are we going to do today?" Things would often change that much.

Day before yesterday was the first time I hauled two horses in a trailer for 48 years except for the day before when I hauled Hondo and Rimmey around the field just to see how they acted.

I had to haul them 6.5 miles over a rough 4wd road all on private property in low range in the lowest gear for most of the trip which took 1:15.

I reconciled myself before I started that I might not even make it to the destination. I watched them in my rearview mirror. I stopped several times and talked to them. They just sort of seemed to say, "Wuts up Harold?"

As mentioned all went well.

There is no way to tell and this is just a very much newbie guessing but I'm wondering if your horse knew you were focused on I gotta do this and I gotta do this today and now. I have clearly seed Hondo and now even Rimmey pick up on that kind of approach from me.

Remember, they often times sense what is going on inside our heads that we are not aware of even though they may not understand the full or even correct meaning of it.

It really really could have been that when you saw the trash cans your subconscious or something said, crap! I'll bet he's gonna be shie of one on each side. Maybe not but that kind of attentiveness is one of the things you were recommending to me when I was having the spin bolt problem with Hondo.

It's hard to accept that the horse is never wrong because we have to decide we are wrong, and WE don't like to do that.


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## Smilie

Well, I have not watched as many videos of CA, as many here seem to have, so all I can say, if what he is doing, is counter to what you would do with a horse, then DON"T do it
As for Titan, I only watched the first two videos, but I did not see a confused horse.I saw a horse that was very relaxed, in between schooling, and you don't get that if a horse is confused/unsure
Far as the horse that flipped over, he was a horse that did not give to pressure, was dangerous for that owner, getting on, and one flip, because that horse refused to give, with the owner on the ground, sure as heck beats all those incidents with that horse doing what he did, when she tried to mount him!
You'll have to give me a link to the blind horse video. Myself, I don't see the point of riding a blind horse
I have ridden night blind horses, raising Appaloosas, and then being caught, un planned, riding at night. Sure, it can be done, with that horse relying on the rider for each and every footfall,BUT that removes allowing a horse to pick his own way, when you give him that option, and indeed, requires a horse that does listen 100% to you,


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## Smilie

Roman said:


> Which is what CA fails to see in horses. In multiple videos, such as the one where the horse flips over and with the blind horse - and I'm even sure with Titan too -, both horses were confused and he didn't see it; yet thinks the horse is just being disrespectful and lazy (yet a rider of 6 years like me can clearly see it >.>).


I can;t comment on the blind horse video, as I did not see it. I did watch the Titan videos, and although he uses that lateral flexion much more then I ever would, I do not see a confused horse, but rather a horse quite secure, in the relationship, relaxing in between training sessions. You don't get that with a confused or up tight horse
Perception varies, according to our own expectations, and interpretation of what we are seeing, Many recreational riders have really no idea what a truly soft horse is.


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## Smilie

Horses are very willing creatures, able to adapt to our demands, but , they are also beings that can, and will learn both negative things, as well as positive, not really doing so because they understand all the time what is 'right, and what is wrong, BUT as creatures of habit, they sure can, and will repeat both good behavior and 'bad; behavior even if the latter was accidentally rewarded
Horses will spook , both because they are truly afraid, have been shoved into their instinctive survival flight mode, and also because they have learned spooking can intimidate the rider, thus they don't have to go where they don't want to, or even be put away for the day.
It is the job of an experienced horseman to be able to tell the difference
Any horse will spook when something suddenly jumps out at them, and as long as they don't try to follow that spook up with trying to leave the country, buck, ect, I never react
However, if I have ridden a horse for awhile, truly earned his trust in my leadership, then if I really did my job, that horse will not spook at something I tell him is safe. He might look at it, but he will accept that I 'am looking out for the lions', so he does not have to. If you don't have that, you also don't have the relationship you think you have with your horse


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## Hondo

The day that I conclude that at times, under certain circumstances, I must inflict physical pain upon Hondo in order to obtain the response I desire is the very same day that my quest for horsemanship will screech to a very immediate, abrupt, and permanent halt.


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## Smilie

Who in the heck said to inflict physical pain???????? I do believe is 'ask , ask louder, then demand', on a horse that understands as to what you are asking
The day a horse takes me for a ride, versus me taking the horse for a ride, is the time I better quit riding!
Too many people think that if they correct a horse, then horsey, 'won't love them' That is completely wrong. Horses feel secure in strong fair leadership, with black and white rules, not grey or inconsistent ones
I know, now, it is also correct now,,to just give kids ,'time out', when they throw a tantrum, and God forbid, the days I applied a few smacks to the bottom of one of my kids, when they threw a tantrum!Both sons grew up to be 'good citizens, something I like to have my horses also become!
I do believe it was Tom Dorrance, just going by the old brain cells and memories implanted there,, and something I read in Western Horseman, who said, 'be as gentle with a horse as possible, but also as firm as needed, to make that horse a 'good citizen.
Now maybe, just working with Hondo,plus his age, a horse that had past issues, has worked to make him a horse you can mostly trust, not demanding much more of him then going down a trail, works for you, and where you ride. Places you can negotiate with Hondo on the best way to go down a trail, or not even, it seems!
How does that work though, if you have to ride him, where he has to listen to your aids, or you go over a cliff. How adapted is he, to be ridden by someone else, should something happen to you? Good citizens find new homes, those with issues, able to be ridden by only one person, do not.
If Hondo trusts and respects you, then he will ride where you ask him to. It really is as simple as that
To get to that point, you first have to get that respect, which in turn fosters trust, along with repetition, ingraining good habits. That means, in the beginning, when that is not solid, indeed , there are times to get that respect through the ask, ask louder and demand- does not need to be actual physical pain, like leaving spur marks, but uncomfortable enough, in increasing demand, to get that give, thus making the right thing easy, and the wrong thing hard, with that right thing, then becoming an ingrained response, over time
My horse is my partner, not my pet, and also not an equal partner.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

...and there are also very good horseman who might take a different approach.






For those who can't watch...

"The style of horsemanship that I do is, probably the best way to describe it is, if you ask the horse to help you make up the rules, how you get him to understand…that’s kind of how you approach it. You approach things in a way that you don’t make things happen, you fix it up and let it happen. To where your idea becomes the horse’s idea so, it’s based a lot on psychology and the horse’s ability to learn and make decisions and you discourage the horse from doing the wrong thing but you don’t punish him for doing the wrong thing. And you reward him and give him relief when he makes the right choices.

You think of training a horse, maybe movement or certain exercises, and in return you give him the one thing he values more than anything and that’s peace."


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## Hondo

Smilie said:


> Who in the heck said to inflict physical pain????????





bsms said:


> I said something my pastor would not appreciate hearing, then popped Bandit in the gut and we trotted thru fast.


This is what I was thinking of. Guess you missed it. This thread is really starting to have a negative effect on me so I'm gonna go right now and unsubscribe from it before I go take it out on Hondo.


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## bsms

"_popped Bandit in the gut and we trotted thru fast_"

Yep. And that level of "pain" is too minimal for me to call it pain. I don't know how to ride a horse without making any contact with the horse. If others do, good for them.


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## Kaifyre

Agreed. A smack with the end of the reins or a sturdy heel to the side is much less than horses do to each other, in a pasture setting. I would love to be able to ride my horse without ever having to use more than my seat, voice, and maybe my calves to ride him, and that is my eventual goal. But to get there he might need a smack to get him moving, or perhaps a heavy hand on the reins once or twice if he's not paying attention, of perhaps a more forceful leg. Is it ideal? No. Do I want to do that all the time? No. But I may have to do that a time or two to get to the good soft cues that I want to use. I will always use the softest leg possible, and the softest hand on the reins, or no rein contact at all if I can get away with it. But it won't always get the job done.

-- Kai


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## Roman

Sorry but Clinton pushed that horse too far and didn't see how confused the horse was until the only way the horse knew how to escape it was to rear and flip over. And the blind horse. He was backing up amazing, but not good enough for Mr. Anderson. >.> Videos makes me mad he had to whack a horse who was blind, who backed up fine to begin with, just to get him to back faster.


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## Greenmeadows

I might as well confess that I was one of those beginners that knew next to nothing before CA. I have been trampled once, bucked off at least 100 times, kicked on multiple occasions, and smashed into things. That's why I turned to CA. What he taught made sense to my horses and me, and I haven't had many safety issues since studying and applying his methods. Will I be a great rider because of that? No, but at least I am not dead! 

I can't thank everyone enough for all of this valuable information that you all have shared here! I agree that there are several points that are wrong with CA, but I also agree that he does several things correctly.


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## Smilie

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> ...and there are also very good horseman who might take a different approach.
> 
> Buck Brannaman at one of his horse clinics in Los Angeles, California - YouTube
> 
> For those who can't watch...
> 
> "The style of horsemanship that I do is, probably the best way to describe it is, if you ask the horse to help you make up the rules, how you get him to understand…that’s kind of how you approach it. You approach things in a way that you don’t make things happen, you fix it up and let it happen. To where your idea becomes the horse’s idea so, it’s based a lot on psychology and the horse’s ability to learn and make decisions and you discourage the horse from doing the wrong thing but you don’t punish him for doing the wrong thing. And you reward him and give him relief when he makes the right choices.
> 
> You think of training a horse, maybe movement or certain exercises, and in return you give him the one thing he values more than anything and that’s peace."


 That include roping the back leg of an aggressive stud, so his assistant could get on and ride him like=-=now!
Of course, we know that will make such a stallion wait for a chance to get the person, which he did_ i blame BUck
Why did he not recommend having that stud gelded, turned out for at least a month, and THEN worked with from start-hmmmmm?????
Lets not apply halos to anyone of these audience type nH trainers, training people, while entertaining the audience!


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## Smilie

Roman said:


> Sorry but Clinton pushed that horse too far and didn't see how confused the horse was until the only way the horse knew how to escape it was to rear and flip over. And the blind horse. He was backing up amazing, but not good enough for Mr. Anderson. >.> Videos makes me mad he had to whack a horse who was blind, who backed up fine to begin with, just to get him to back faster.


 That horse who flipped, did so completely because he would not give to pressure correctly.He braced, and flipped. The horse was dangerous for his owner. Sure, a person caused that in the first place by improper handling,but it is exactly because of that, that CA has a niche
Don't create a spoiled and dangerous horse, and you never need to use whatever it takes to try and undo bad habits


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## Smilie

Okay, I watched the blind horse video, and I saw adaptation for a blind horse, but expectations, like for any horse, as the owner wants the horse to be responsive and light as any horse
Sorry, but that is a concept in training any performance horse, and as soon as the horse became m lighter, there was then no need to either pick at the horse, or to go beyond that inticial light ask.


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## Smilie

Sigh, I should leave this thread, before I;m accused again of being a CA groupie!
Besides, it's midnight,and my dog just came in, from an encounter with a skunk!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Smilie said:


> That include roping the back leg of an aggressive stud, so his assistant could get on and ride him like=-=now!
> Of course, we know that will make such a stallion wait for a chance to get the person, which he did_ i blame BUck
> Why did he not recommend having that stud gelded, turned out for at least a month, and THEN worked with from start-hmmmmm?????
> Lets not apply halos to anyone of these audience type nH trainers, training people, while entertaining the audience!


He had a customer paying to have him fix her horse and only a few days to do it. You were not there, you do not know the discussion that occurred between the owner and Buck. Some people (this lady had how many studs?) don't believe in gelding. Rather than make her into a pariah of the documentary, many things might have gotten left out. I agree, no halos including on ourselves!

Secondly, Smilie, are you suggesting that a horse has the mental capacities to plot, plan, lie in wait for the right opportunity and ambush a person? If you believe that, then perhaps you should review what other capacities that would also enable. Once you have completed that, you may want to rethink the effects of some training methods.


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## Smilie

That's the point Reinin, all of these type trainers, get expectations from their customers.
And, yes, it has been documented that studs will more then any other sex of horse. look for an opportunity to get back at any entity that chellenged them
Now, lets go to that Blind horse, as obviously owner expectations, even thought stated, get conveniently excluded.
THe owner specifically asked for help in making that horse, who happens to be blind, more responsive in the back up.
For those here jumping up and down about poor blind horse, how about giving your training advise on making the horse lighter in that back up?
I know exactly w , having watched that BB documentary, that the owner was a hoarder, had 20 or thirty studs running around, that the stud she brought, had been orphaned and treated like a baby. I also know the foal was born O2 deprived, which , by the way, doe snot mean he was mentally damaged, as I had three dummy foals born-one died at birth, and the other two, after a few days of intensive intervention, grew up , 'normal', as my vet said they would, if they came around in a period of three days
I am not suggesting horses sit down and plot,, but stallions are known for retaliating towards a person they considered treated them unfairly, and that has been documented by many horsemen, esp a stud that already has learned to get away with being aggressive towards people, like that stud.


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## bsms

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> ..."The style of horsemanship that I do is, probably the best way to describe it is, if you ask the horse to help you make up the rules, how you get him to understand…that’s kind of how you approach it. You approach things in a way that you don’t make things happen, you fix it up and let it happen. To where your idea becomes the horse’s idea so, it’s based a lot on psychology and the horse’s ability to learn and make decisions and you discourage the horse from doing the wrong thing but you don’t punish him for doing the wrong thing. And you reward him and give him relief when he makes the right choices.
> 
> You think of training a horse, maybe movement or certain exercises, and in return you give him the one thing he values more than anything and that’s peace."


That passage is very close to what Ray Hunt writes. From what I've read so far, I think I go both further down the road, and not.

"_if you ask the horse to help you make up the rules_"

Some rules are not negotiable to me. There are rules where I don't care what the horse wants or how he feels. Certain courses of action will be rejected by me:

We do not turn and run.

We do not run blindly away.

You do not bite me, nip at me, or use your teeth near or on me.

If you are not in the mood to be ridden when I saddle you up, get in the mood. Exceptions will be made if you are hurt, sick or injured. Otherwise - get in the mood.

Bucking is an unacceptable way of protesting. Find another if you aren't happy.

There are other rules, but there are just some things about being around horses and riding them where I don't care about the horse's opinion.

Within those broad boundaries, there is a lot of room for compromise. There is a theory about raising kids that says kids do better if given choices. Rather than say, "You must do X right now!", the theory goes that the parent should try to say, "You can do X, or Y now, or do X later or Z. Any of those is acceptable to me. What do YOU want to do?"

So if Bandit doesn't want to walk past a trash can, and assuming it is not genuine fear, acceptable options (to me) include trotting past, sliding 5-10 feet over and walking past, prancing past, waling slower past it, etc. But we're regularly going to need to go past garbage cans in order to get home, so NOT GOING leaves me sitting forever on a horse standing in the desert 1/2 mile from home. Not acceptable. I'll give him some options, but my starving to death while sitting on a horse 1/2 mile from home isn't going to be one of them.

"_To where your idea becomes the horse’s idea_"

None of my horses know how to sidepass in an arena. All have done them fine when needed on a trail. Why? Because when it is needed, the HORSE understands the need and responds with me. That is why I dislike CA's approach to teaching a horse to go down a hill. I don't want to teach the horse that I often ask him to do UNREASONABLE things (like back up a hill I just asked him to go down). I want the horse to get into the habit of ASSUMING I ask for reasonable things. Then when I ask him for something he doesn't understand, he'll assume I have a reason, and he'll perform it as if it was HIS idea as well.

What Ray Hunt seems to say, from what I've read so far, is that you also make what is NOT your idea unhappy for the horse, so the horse will then 'choose' to follow your idea. That is nothing more than pressure & release, or punishment and reward. And that definitely needs to be a tool in our toolbox. You cannot make everything reasonable to a green horse. Yesterday, Bandit thought it was reasonable to stop riding and go back and eat grass. He was right. That was completely reasonable to him. But it wasn't acceptable to me.

Outside the arena is a good place to train a green horse because we can frequently set it up so that our choices make sense to the horse, and thus teach the horse that he can save time and effort by doing what we ask because, after all, his rider always has a good reason. We can also do it from the "team" approach, because I think horses will freely do something they don't have much interest in IF it benefits "The Team".

But I sometimes need the horse to do things he doesn't and cannot understand. In time, that might come from trust in my judgment. But near term, putting some experience on the horse...he'll often need to do something "just because".

And almost none of this applies to a typical CA scenario, because a problem horse sometimes needs to learn a new way of interacting with a human - and that incentive often needs to start with learning that the human is a formidable creature. After all, the horse doesn't need to compromise with someone he can control, and many CA scenarios involve a horse who is already controlling the human! So I think sometimes kicking a horse's butt IS an acceptable option. A horse who has learned to ignore or attack a human needs to start the road to teamwork by finding out that ignoring and attacking are NOT acceptable.

Hope my spelling was OK. Gotta go but I wanted to post this first.


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## Smilie

Good points BAMS, but , I think that backing down the hill has been mis construed by many, and is un fortunate that CA even used a little hill for that demo.
No hill would have been better, as by the time you get to an actual hill, I'm sure CA agrees that you want to keep foreward, and would never correct a horse by backing him down a hill, but would haev that rate, on him,through the training that he demonstrated, where you teach a trail horse to never rush or lean into a bit, but go on a loose rein, on any speed asked for
Many people just let a horse bound up or down a hill, as that horse takes 'charge' That works on short hills, no matter how steep, but not very much on long steep climbs, on the edge of drop offs
Therefore, when ahorse leans on the bit, trying to rush home, whatever, I don't circle them,I don't try to hold them back with bit contact, but instead, ground allowing, I stop them, and then back them hard with my legs, until they feel soft in my hands, thus giving and off the bit. I then give them slack, and a chance to proceed on a loose rein. THen, by the time I do get to a real hill, either up or down, i let that horse go either up and down on a completely drapped rein, and can slow the horse, if I need to, by simply raising my rein hand a bit 
I saw what CA was trying to demonstrate, but unfortunately, it had many people focusing on that little hill, thus extrapolating that CA advocated backing horses on actual hills, to rate them, even though he said not to even try the method on a little hill, if the horse did not have the basics.
The same advise applies to the one rein stop, or taking the head away, disengaging the hips. You don't use it, if the horse has not been taught it , at all gaits, first, before you ever need to use it in a real situation
I think , that is one of the true faults in some of CA's videos. He shows true ways to address problems, but often in the abrupt condensed no noncience way he does it, leaves a lot of room for mis understanding/misapplication, esp for novice horse people


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## Smilie

Far as side passing, sure horses will naturally sidle over on atrail, away from the object that concerns them, with many moving against your leg, if you try to control that side passing, but if ahorse truly knows how to side pass on cue, he will side pass anywhere, including into the direction he does not want to go.
We also don't need to teach horses to stop, to pick up gaits, to do flying lead changes, as they do them all the time, just out at liberty.
What we do teach them, is to perform those maneuvers on cue, at exact locations, obedient to leg and rein


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## Roman

The blind horse didn't need any more help with backing up. He backed up better than any horse I've seen back up! They just wanted him to back up FASTER which was uncalled for.


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## Smilie

The owner asked CA to improve the horse;s backup, and whether you thought it needed improvement, means zero
The horse was not mis treated, intimidated, but rather learned to back more lightly, with impulsion, which in turn created amore correct and straight back up.
That owner, took this horse, with the goal of him becoming a light and responsive horse, like any other horse.. She could have left him with the original owner, and a doubtful, if any future
I don't know about you, but I admire those who strive to be the best they can, ignoring any anti cap, versus using it as an excuse. While I don't have a major handicap, I do ride with double knee replacements, and don't expect any special considerations
The vet also confirmed that the horse 's cataracts are improving, to the point the horse now has visual induced startle response
When I see what that girl has achieved with this horse,the relationship she has with him, using cues that replace visual cues, I very much doubt, her expectations for her horse, are beyond what that horse can give,and which also allows that horse to be the best he can,versus using a handicap to limit either one of them


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## Roman

I don't doubt the relationship. But you clearly saw Clinton whack the horse several times when it didn't move fast enough for him. :icon_rolleyes:


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## Joel Reiter

Smilie said:


> I think , that is one of the true faults in some of CA's videos. He shows true ways to address problems, but often in the abrupt condensed no no-nonsense way he does it, leaves a lot of room for mis understanding/misapplication, esp for novice horse people


Yeah, the true fault of CA's tv blips is that they are just advertisements for his DVD series. The problem is people watch the blip and think they know what to do. No matter how many times he says "this is not the right way to do this, don't try this at home," people don't hear it. If you haven't seen the fundamentals series or the colt starting series, or at least been to one of his walkabout tours, you don't know what he teaches. But he has created that problem for himself.


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## Smilie

Roman said:


> I don't doubt the relationship. But you clearly saw Clinton whack the horse several times when it didn't move fast enough for him. :icon_rolleyes:


correct- when the horse did not respond to the verbal and hand cues alone, to back with more impulsion/try, the smack was added, in the ask, ask louder, then demand.
You will note, that after the horse got that greater response, there no longer was a need for anything beyond the original light request. That is the entire point, far as creating a light horse, a horse that then needs only very light cues to get that response.
Instead, if you always just expect less, ask for no better performance, you will get no better try
It is called doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results!
See how light that owner got the horse in the other maneuvers? She just needed help getting that same try in backing.
If you never want a horse that responsive, then there is no need to use a technique that requires more response,which, after that wake up call, then will occur, just using that former light ask
Perhaps, a hard concept for someone to grasp, that never worked towards getting a very light and responsive horse, which this OWNER, not you wants.
What do you suggest-just saying,' now horsey, mommy really , really would like to to back with more impulsion and straightness?????


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## Joel Reiter

Smilie said:


> You will note, that after the horse got that greater response, there no longer was a need for anything beyond the original light request. That is the entire point, far as creating a light horse, a horse that then needs only very light cues to get that response.


At a Walkabout tour event I attended one of the sample horses was pretty convinced by past experience that if he just ignored the input he would be left alone. Clinton did not stop until he got a try.

The next day, the horse was completely different, very responsive and engaged. Clinton made a point of saying that some of the people who attended on Saturday would not be there on Sunday to see the progress, because they were offended by him being firm with the horse. But as he pointed out, the horse will never need that kind of treatment again if properly handled, and would never have needed that kind of treatment in the first place if properly trained.

There are a lot of horses in rescue, on the auction block, and on Craigslist waiting to become bear bait or starve in some hoarder's pasture because somebody thought it was somehow kinder not to "whack" them. Right before they give up and abandoned the horses to a fate worse than death.


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## jgnmoose

Joel Reiter said:


> At a Walkabout tour event I attended one of the sample horses was pretty convinced by past experience that if he just ignored the input he would be left alone. Clinton did not stop until he got a try.
> 
> The next day, the horse was completely different, very responsive and engaged. Clinton made a point of saying that some of the people who attended on Saturday would not be there on Sunday to see the progress, because they were offended by him being firm with the horse. But as he pointed out, the horse will never need that kind of treatment again if properly handled, and would never have needed that kind of treatment in the first place if properly trained.
> 
> There are a lot of horses in rescue, on the auction block, and on Craigslist waiting to become bear bait or starve in some hoarder's pasture because somebody thought it was somehow kinder not to "whack" them. Right before they give up and abandoned the horses to a fate worse than death.


Exactly my feeling on this, particularly the last paragraph.

Horse people are kinda nuts, we can all admit that there is a lot of bias that each of us has for what we think is the right way. If a training path is not abusive to the horse, and keeps them off craigslist or the sale barn "loose horses" sale (i.e. "killer truck") it is a really good start. To do that the horse has to be safe enough to ride and not blow up every time a trailer or new situation comes up. That is kind of the start and end for me on whether CA's "method" has value.


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## Luke riley

Lost respect for him for turning Into a 

Guru selling more useless stuff to make a dollar I feel like he is more worried of making money than teaching and training horses


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## Joel Reiter

Luke riley said:


> Lost respect for him for turning Into a Guru selling more useless stuff to make a dollar I feel like he is more worried of making money than teaching and training horses


It's possible Clinton Anderson is more worried about making money than teaching and training horses. However, if I was making a list of things I don't like about Clinton, several things would rank more offensive to me than peddling ball caps with little kangaroo logos on them.

I know several successful people. All of them have exceptional gifts, take big risks and work very hard. I admire them.


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## Blue 42

I'm not a die-hard Clinton Anderson fan, nor am I a harsh critic of his. I think that some of his methods certainly have sound reasoning behind them and are very easy for a horse to understand. Simplicity is something that is important in training horses, as they don't think the same way we do. His methods certainly work for many horses and riders and he has built a very loyal following.
However, I would not personally follow his method. The age he starts his horses at is a big thing for me. Like many "NH" trainers today, he's a salesman who is marketing old, time-tested techniques as his own new inventions. I don't have anything against NH; I actually use quite a bit of it on my horse. What I don't like is professionals selling gimmick equipment or DVD sets, telling naive beginners that "you can be a master horseman in these easy steps". Just as there is no magic bit that can solve your horse's problems, there is no such thing as a miracle halter, leadrope, whip, or what have you. Many NH methods, not just Clinton Anderson's, like to sell one standard solution without taking into account the horse's individual personality or training. Unfortunately, behaviour like this gives NH in general a bad name in the equestrian community. The overflexing of his horses is another thing I don't like. Clinton's methods work for many horses, but they don't work for mine. That's all. I'm not against bits, or riding with contact. I'm not anti-NH. It's just the fact that Clinton's methods are not the most effective for my horse.
What I recommend is simply learning about many different methods and taking the parts you like. You do not have to follow one trainer or use only one method. There are 1,000 ways to do one thing with your horse, and everyone is going to tell you that their way is the only real one. You can learn about many different methods and select the parts that work for you and your horse, and leave the parts you don't like. You can build a training program customized to each individual horse. What works well for one horse might not work for another, so you have to be willing to adapt. There are thousands of trainers and thousands of different techniques out there, so you should have a wealth of methods to choose from.


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## tinyliny

when you are starting out with horses, you kind of need to know the "steps", the "formula", the "tools" , . . etc. you don't have any feel , yet. you don't know what you don't know. you just need someplace to get started. in that way, I think trainers that package things in a program can be very helpful.

but, as you see more and more people work with horses, you realize that what you want to learn from anyone is HOW to employ the steps/tool. How to interact with horses. this is very dependent on each human being, working with each individual horse. 

when I watch a Youtube trainer, I look more at how the human is working and thinking about the horse, rather than actually what he is doing, with what tool. If I like what they do, I want to try and emulate their style, their attitude, their 'vibe', more than figure out a program.

if I base trainers on that , then CA is not a human whose 'vibe' I would want to try and emulate.

how's that for a wordy and high falutin' response.?


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## farmpony84

I'm a strong RIDER but a timid HANDLER. What I mean is, I can ride a tough horse and I can put him threw the paces but when it comes to lunging and ground work, that's where I'm lacking. My first horse, I purchased as a 3 year old. He was a couple hundred pounds underweight, I can't remember his score but you could your fingers between his ribs. You could see his hip bone, his spine, his eyes were sunken in. I remember he had an infected scab on his withers from the saddle rubbing him raw, he had a hole in his face that oozed puss. It wasn't until years later that I found out it was from an abscessed tooth. (I had taken him in for a root canal). He was a rearer in the saddle and on the ground. I remember leading him around the show grounds on his hind feet. I can't tell you how many trainers told me to shoot him. I used to think they were mean.

I never corrected him. You see - he was not only neglected, but abused. Badly. And I was a teenager. And I knew best. So his bad habits stayed. He's 32 years old now and would probably rear if I tacked him up tomorrow. (He's been retired for a couple years now). 

My point is... I should have corrected him. I should have put him through the paces, and I should have earned his respect. No amount of LOVE is going to get you that respect. He likes me... He trusts me, and maybe he even loves me, but he does't respect me. He would just as soon shove me out of the way or yank the lead rope out of my hands then listen to me. We have a good relationship but it's not the healthiest one.

I have found the CA methods very helpful. He breaks things down in a way that I need to see. His steps are easy to follow and his explanations are very helpful for me. That's the thing with the online trainers. You have to take what you can from them. If you don't get it or you don't like them, then move on to another. There isn't just one perfect trainer out there. You can even take from a bunch of different people.

As for his money.... I think he's a marketing genius and if he can make a living and even get rich off it. Then more power to him. I'd love to get paid for doing what I love.


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## Joel Reiter

Blue 42 said:


> What I recommend is simply learning about many different methods and taking the parts you like.


I think that's good advice, but it takes more than learning about many different methods. I think it requires actually learning different methods. And based on your post, you apparently don't know a whole lot about Clinton Anderson. Of the dozen or so statements I would challenge, I'll start with this one:



Blue 42 said:


> he's a salesman who is marketing old, time-tested techniques as his own new inventions.


Wrong, wrong, wrong. I hear this all the time and I defy you to back it up with anything Clinton has actually said. In his DVDs, on his tours, in his books, and on his web site he continually gives credit to the three Australians whose methods he combined into what he teaches. He also says he regularly buys other trainers' dvds and says if he finds one thing that helps him explain something more clearly he considers the cost justified.


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## jgnmoose

I also don't agree that CA is marketing anything as his own original material. You can see this for yourself by playing the "Ian Tyson" drinking game while watching the Titan series on Youtube.


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## Bright Stride Equine

As a horse trainer I think he has somethings to offer, they all do. Don't think I like him so much as a person, but that is a different thing and I am not going to discount any knowledge I could learn from him just because I don't always like the way he acts.

I use a hodgepodge of things from many trainers and my own methods.


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## Knave

I can see that a lot of people on this forum don't like Clinton. I don't have any problems with him myself so I find it odd. I like that he is easy to understand and have learned a lot watching him when we had satellite. Some people talk over my head and that gets me nowhere, and I appreciate that he doesn't. 

Does that mean I am a die hard Clinton follower? No. I don't own his DVDs because I don't have the money, but I'm sure I'd learn a lot if I did. I don't do everything I see him do because I know some things wouldn't work for me, but that doesn't negate his talent by any means.

I like to learn by watching lots of people. If I don't think something they do would work for me I don't do it. There is a certain trainer that I met that irritated me to no end and I thought he'd blow up a horse, but I still tried to see what he did that worked and I learned something. So, I can understand that some people will be irritated by other personalities, but maybe we all need to be a little kinder...


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## Smilie

jgnmoose said:


> I also don't agree that CA is marketing anything as his own original material. You can see this for yourself by playing the "Ian Tyson" drinking game while watching the Titan series on Youtube.


Curious, what is the Ian Tyson drinking game?
I am surprised when someone outside of Canada actually knows about Ian.
I do like his music, well, before he lost his voice. Ian is quite a bit full of himself, in his autobiography, so maybe has that in common


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## Knave

I love Ian's music!! I don't think that is who they are referring too. Lol. I didn't know he was arrogant or wrote an autobiography.


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## jgnmoose

Smilie said:


> Curious, what is the Ian Tyson drinking game?
> I am surprised when someone outside of Canada actually knows about Ian.
> I do like his music, well, before he lost his voice. Ian is quite a bit full of himself, in his autobiography, so maybe has that in common


Lol, I didn't know that about Ian Tyson.

I misspoke, the horseman Clinton Anderson refers to is his mentor Ian Francis. Got the first name right anyway. 

It is pretty clear to me that he considers Mr. Francis to be a much better horseman than he. In that respect I consider it pretty humble for CA.


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## bsms

Knave said:


> I can see that a lot of people on this forum don't like Clinton. I don't have any problems with him myself so I find it odd...


I guess the reason is that many of us have found his method did NOT work well with our horses, or believe there is a better way of approaching a training problem.

Tom Roberts was a Brit who eventually lived out his life in Australia. He had more experience than CA, and near the end of his life he recommended two training principles which he said would help a newer rider:

1 - This will profit you. This will profit you not.

2 - Quiet Persistence.

If you have a horse with behaviors you do not want him to keep, you try to figure out what the HORSE is getting out of it. Then you try to respond in a way that makes the horse's goal not happen. You then persist in blocking the horse's goal from happening, until the horse tries something else. And you keep quietly persisting until the horse tries something acceptable to you. When that happens, you make sure the horse gets what the horse wants out of it.

I think of it as searching for a *MUTUALLY acceptable compromise*. I want to set things up so both horse and rider get some of what they want - enough that both feel content. That might not work in all scenarios. But for trail riding a horse I own and ride regularly, it seems to work well.

A fellow named Tom Moates wrote about the commonly used rule: "_Make the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard_". He said it was a good rule, except a lot of folks jumped to making the "wrong thing hard" and never tried to make the right thing easy! But if you first make the right thing easy, you may never need to make the wrong thing hard. 

I suspect CA would agree with the paragraph above. But a lot of his videos seem to jump immediately into making the wrong thing hard. We humans are good at punishing - making the wrong thing hard. Maybe that is because he DOES meet a lot of folks who don't understand why their sweet equine best friend won't do anything they want. Or turns mean.

I don't have that problem. Maybe that is why I don't find very many of his videos helpful. I personally think Clinton Anderson would be a fun guy to talk to over a few beers. I have nothing against him personally, and I can understand why he gets upset with people who think you NEVER do anything that will make a horse unhappy. But if I needed to recommend someone to a new rider, I'd recommend Tom Roberts over Clinton Anderson.


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## Knave

Bsms- I like your answer. I can't 'like' answers on my phone.


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## Judah

The main peeve I have with Clinton Anderson is that people gather cult-like around him and I have been "corrected" while handling horses because I wasn't doing it the Clinton Anderson Way. That is not entirely his fault of course, and when asked by a friend about what I thought of his method I told them he's good at what he does, but he asks too much of a horse too fast for my own personal tastes. I dont despise him, but its incredibly annoying when I get heckled by die-hard fans.


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## Knave

Judah,

I would be irritated by people telling me what to do myself. Lol. People always seem so quick to tell others what to do with their children and animals. ? Advice doesn't bother me if I don't think the person is expecting me to follow it, but I hate when someone tells me to do something I know is wrong and expects me to do it. Then you have to defend why you don't... ugh it's irritating.

I doubt many of the people scolding you for not using Clinton's process are people who are great at it themselves. ?


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## Smilie

jgnmoose said:


> Lol, I didn't know that about Ian Tyson.
> 
> I misspoke, the horseman Clinton Anderson refers to is his mentor Ian Francis. Got the first name right anyway.
> 
> It is pretty clear to me that he considers Mr. Francis to be a much better horseman than he. In that respect I consider it pretty humble for CA.


Well, Ian Tyson does dabble as a non pro in cutting horses, and has written a few songs around horses and esp cutting horses, so I was curious as to how his music would fit into CA;s videos. Freestyle reining perhaps???
Anyway, thanks for explaining , right first name , wrong last name!
Now that we sort of side tracked to Ian Tyson, and cutting horses, You might wish to here the song about the Steeldust line (Silent Partner ? )

Here is most of that song, plus a nice cutting horse working


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## Smilie

Other then posting that video of a nice cutting horse, I;m not going t get in the whole CA debate again. He is a trainer who trains people to train horses,like parelli and a host of others. 
Just like clinics you take from each what works for you, and avoid clinics where you don't agree with techniques used. I know quite a few reining trainers, western pl trainers, ect, that I would never take a clinic with, or send a horse to
A few of those conclusions, came from the school of 'hard knocks
People create cults , because they follow blindly, versus learning what techniques work for them and their horses


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## jgnmoose

Judah said:


> The main peeve I have with Clinton Anderson is that people gather cult-like around him and I have been "corrected" while handling horses because I wasn't doing it the Clinton Anderson Way. That is not entirely his fault of course, and when asked by a friend about what I thought of his method I told them he's good at what he does, but he asks too much of a horse too fast for my own personal tastes. I dont despise him, but its incredibly annoying when I get heckled by die-hard fans.


The horse world is full of know it alls. 

The trick is to get enough knowledge to know if you should listen to them or not.


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## BarrelRacingBeautie

I like some techniques he uses, but I hate why he does them .
He wants what he asked done right then right now. He doesn't really take in to account how the horse feels, there is only dominance not mutual respect. If the horse "talks back" it usually results in the horse being uncomfortable or in pain. 
I like my horses to respond to me correctly because they want to. His horses do what he asks because of the fear of pain or discomfort. They only willing because they don't want spurred or have their mouth yanked on. 
However, it takes a much longer time to have a horse that does what you ask because of your relationship and mutual respect. 
Sometimes though, a pushy horse will try to take advantage. You have to assert your position, while still respecting him/her. Respect the horse and he will learn to respect you. However, set boundaries with that horse, do not let them run all over you, he/she is not the dominant one, but neither are you. Mutual respect is key
Every horse is different there cannot be one METHOD to training all horses


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## izzievparsons

Personally, I love his training methods but at the same time I also hate them. 

His groundwork exercises are great for developing a respectful relationship with your horse, which is essential. I will say this though; they are a little harsh. I feel like he gets so angry when the horse messes up one little bit and doesn't get in on the first try. He almost knocks the curiosity out of them. So what I do is take his groundwork exercises and 'numb them down.' I also combine his exercises with some of Buck Brannamans: which I have had great success with. Buck is a lot more gentle with horses and encourages them to experiment a little when looking for the right answer. So in short, I've had great success with combining both of their methods. 

But I would recommend experimenting with what works for you and your horse when looking for a trainer!


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## Backcountryrider

Prior to this year, I used methods from several different trainers/clinicians. Buck, Clinton, Chris, then a little bit of several different reining, cutting trainers. I've never been really harsh but did think, I had to MAKE the horse do what I was asking which is what most teach, except Buck. I started a real quiet gelding last yr using same methods as I've started others and started having problems as this gelding although really gentle and nice, would NOT stand for any kind of rough treatment at all! Honestly I was lost on what to do. I started watching hundreds of videos from many different clinicians, trainers then came across one video that finally turned the light switch on! I finally understand what the heck Buck has been saying all these years. I can honestly say that you CAN start a horse without ROUGH handling as I've done it because of this one gelding that wouldn't take it (sounds like a Ray Hunt story). Not to say I've not had to pull, sometimes hard, but no longer wear spurs and the refinement I'm getting to is approaching that cushion of air cues between your seat, leg and the horse. I sort cattle and he moves very well, but not the fastest walking out which should get better with age and gained stamina. I could not have started this gelding using CA methods or Chris C. I would have caused many more problems. Although I have no intentions of doing it, I'm fairly close to bridless with this gelding @ 3 yr old.


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## Smilie

AgaIn , starting horses, is not the same as working with a horse that has become spoiled


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## RemingtonDiva

I love him his methods. For me they work. I currently have a 4 year old TBx who I purchased unhandled on a whim. I handled her and sent her to a professional breaker who uses Clintons methods. She is now 8 months undersaddle and has become an amazing little horse. My plan is for her is to be a high level all-rounder. What I mostly love about his methods is your horse learns to work completely on a loose rein and then from that you build them up into more.

His DVDs are no nonsense and easy to follow. 

My girl took out 3rd place for best mannered in a ribbon day after being broken in for 2 months. Then after only 6 months she took 1st place for best mannered. We were up against some seriously schooled horses


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## LlamaPacker

I love reading this discussion of methods, as have been watching YouTubes a lot since getting my little molly mule in April and my little horse in July. The young woman I bought the little horse from told me that she liked CA a lot better than Parelli, due to CA's more straightforward methods and wasn't going to be "having tea" with her horses. I did find right away that the "getting horse to stand for mounting" worked very well, so had at least one small success. Had learned from seller that the little horse was very well-trained to do the neck flexing, maybe as some have been saying is over-flexing, but can't quite seem to get the mule to want to participate in that exercise, stopped working on her once trying to get the little horse ready for 4H. Everything pretty much now stopped for the winter. Just wanted to say that I've enjoyed reading the differing thoughts of so many people who have lots of experience, so thanks to all of you for sharing!


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## SandermanHorsemanship

I personally love everything about Clinton Anderson's training, but telling something they are training their horse wrong because they are not doing it your way is wrong. Every trainer has their own ways of doing things, and each their own ideas. Personally, I love hearing other trainers' ideas about how to do things, as it simply expands my knowledge on training.


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## Dreamer my baby

I like Clinton Anderson, because he taught me what I dont want to do with horses and how not to do things.

I dont really like any of the "professional" trainers. They all use whatever their technique is the same way with every horse.Every horse is different. What works on one horse is likely to not work on another. Each individual horse is different horse is different and should have training sculpted to how they learn best and what is the most fun (while still learning).

So even though on the very first post it was stated now opinions just actual facts....thats just my opinion/what I believe to be the facts.


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## Spec

I've found his methods work like a CHARM with pushy/spoiled/confident horses. I didn't have as much luck with the more timid horse I worked with; I had to have a much softer approach than what CA teaches. 
I really appreciate his humor because he makes those boring groundwork DVDs pretty dang funny.


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## JCnGrace

ignore this post just testing something


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Spec said:


> I've found his methods work like a CHARM with pushy/spoiled/confident horses. I didn't have as much luck with the more timid horse I worked with; I had to have a much softer approach than what CA teaches.


This right here ^^^^^ highlights where I think ALL of these 'hotshot' trainers fall totally flat. Their clinics, DVDs, TV shows, etc, all show them working with the problem horses and using their methods to turn them around. They don't show them starting a youngster who hasn't been spoiled in some fashion or with a real timid and frightened horse where you have to really dial back the intensity. Most of the people who subscribe to these trainers (who only go to clinics and buy DVDs, not who actually go to say, Clinton's ranch and study for months) don't understand that the method is a series of steps and a framework, but each horse is different and needs their own approach. They think that CA or anyone else, is always just GOGOGOGOGOGO without any adjustment.


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## bsms

^^ Wish we had "Love" buttons to click...


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## tinyliny

You can see him working with a young, basically untouched colt in video from Road to the Horse sessions. It's . . . .interesting.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

tinyliny said:


> You can see him working with a young, basically untouched colt in video from Road to the Horse sessions. It's . . . .interesting.


I don't subscribe to any of those guys Tiny. Don't watch them unless I have absolutely nothing else to do.


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## Foxhunter

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> They think that CA or anyone else, is always just GOGOGOGOGOGO without any adjustment.


So very true but then there is the fact that many miss the timing factor and will also miss out vital parts of a method because they don't like it.


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## loosie

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> This right here ^^^^^ highlights where I think ALL of these 'hotshot' trainers fall totally flat. Their clinics, DVDs, TV shows, etc, all show them working with the problem horses and using their methods to turn them around. They don't show them starting a youngster who hasn't been spoiled in some fashion or with a real timid and frightened horse


Agree with you mostly, but that, to name a few, I HAVE seen CA, PP, BB... & who's that other funny Australian guy everyone likes these days, me included?? - work with untrained or green horses. While they may or may not use tactics/principles that I agree with, IME they mostly DO adjust their approaches accordingly & try to explain why they do/don't do stuff with any given horse. Mostly, being all of the above, aside from CA. Granted I have only seen a couple of vids of him working greenies - went looking for some to see how he handled 'non problems' differently. The 'brumby challenge' or whatever he called it, sticks in my mind as just a terrifying, terrible eg all round, for the poor newly caught brumby, trapped in a round pen with CA in the centre 'chasing' him while he ran for his life & threw himself at the panels, trying to escape. Of course, finally he worked out he couldn't escape & gave up in the end. 

I'd like to see any vids of CA behaving differently with horses, if anyone can direct me to one??

As for your comment above Fox, agreed, that most people who get into this stuff don't understand the subtleties, the timing, etc, so they often completely miss these vital factors. I do think that CA is good with timing. He IS good at what he does, at the approach he uses. I STILL don't like or agree with it myself tho ;-)


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## jaydee

Interesting to read some of the recent posts on this tread as I haven't looked at in a while but the current thread that mentions the importance of good 'role models' brought it back to my mind
A lot of riders and horseowners, especially newbies will latch on to the sort of people that loosie has just mention and adopt them as a role model and while I'm sure you can get some good training tips from many of them unless you actually know these people you have no clue what's going on behind the scenes, at their yards/barns etc.


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## Joel Reiter

loosie said:


> who's that other funny Australian guy everyone likes these days, me included??


Are you talking about Guy McLean? Very gentle with the horses, but kind of a strange dude. Also employs a device that Houdini used in his magic. Houdini would have himself locked in a safe and break out, rather than trying to break in. He was counting on the audience not really considering the possibility that breakout out was much easier. McLean does a lot of amazing work from horseback with multiple horses, but it's more of a circus performance than a training technique. But I've only seen him live once.



loosie said:


> I'd like to see any vids of CA behaving differently with horses, if anyone can direct me to one??


Yeah, watch all 28 hours of his colt starting kit. He's working with a Mustang and spends a lot of time explaining that particular horse's nature and describing how he would be doing things differently if the horse reacted a different way.

The real problem with CA's stuff is that both critics and followers tend to pay way too much attention to his on line stuff, which is nothing but an advertisement, and not enough to the material he sells, which is much too detailed and boring for a 30 minutes TV episode or youtube. But until you watch a few hours of his colt starting or fundamentals DVDs, you really don't have good handle on what he teaches.


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## tinyliny

well, it's a shame that he misrepresents himself thusly. I'm gonna make a judgement based on the many loud videos I see online. it's only natural.


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## jgnmoose

Joel Reiter said:


> The real problem with CA's stuff is that both critics and followers tend to pay way too much attention to his on line stuff, which is nothing but an advertisement, and not enough to the material he sells, which is much too detailed and boring for a 30 minutes TV episode or youtube. But until you watch a few hours of his colt starting or fundamentals DVDs, you really don't have good handle on what he teaches.


This exactly.

Even the Horsemanship 101 DVD series is *6 DVDs* long. 

I've seen quite a few similar types of videos where they guy admonishes the viewer to tie their horse correctly but can't be bothered to even mention a single knot to look up let alone show. 

Clinton Anderson's biggest strength whether you like him or not is that he likes to talk, and likes explaining things in detail.


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## loosie

Joel Reiter said:


> Are you talking about Guy McLean? Very gentle with the horses, but kind of a strange dude. Also employs a device that Houdini used in his magic. Houdini would have himself locked in a safe and break out, rather than trying to break in. He was counting on the audience not really considering the possibility that breakout out was much easier. McLean does a lot of amazing work from horseback with multiple horses, but it's more of a circus performance than a training technique. But I've only seen him live once.


Warwick Schiller is the name I couldn't think of. But yeah, Guy McLean's pretty special too. Is he well known outside Oz? Yeah, amazing showman, seen him live a couple of times, but I have watched his teaching vids, when he's not focussing on 'circus tricks'. I like his style.



> The real problem with CA's stuff is that both critics and followers tend to pay way too much attention to his on line stuff, which is nothing but an advertisement, and not enough to the material he sells


And the trouble with that tho is that if his 'advertisements' are like that, there's no way I'd be spending good money on his other stuff. While I absolutely get that most of his online stuff is dealing with 'spoilt' horses & he's putting on a show, his 'advertisement' for dealing with that terrified, wild brumby was particularly... off putting.


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## Kanife0226

*I'll keep this short and sweet*

I love CA's method. I use it with both my Miniature Horse yearling stud and my experienced Paint/Arabian gelding and they both respond to it wonderfully. I also used it for my last 3 foals, and the 2 year old stud I had at the time. They also responded amazingly. However, the rescue mare I had did not respond well to it. In her past somewhere before a I got her, somebody had been too rough and direct with her. I had to adapt to her and make everything soft and slow and as non-threatening as possible or she would chuck her brain right out the window and as far as she was concerned I could follow it out.

My point is this; In my opinion, with the experience that I have personally had with his method, it will work on 9 out of 10 horses. But, like with any method, there will always be that one horse that it doesn't work for. And any good trainer will be able to adapt to the horse, regardless of their 'method'. Is Clinton a good trainer? Yes. Is his way the only good way? No!
Do what works for you, but more importantly DO WHAT WORKS FOR YOUR HORSE!


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