# Please can you cast a critical eye over this guy



## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

what exactly are you wanting him for, and are there any videos/conformation shots of him? what is his asking price? I honestly need more information in order to tell you anything.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

No conformation shots, have just asked if there are any videos.

As to what I want, low level local dressage, and something that is big nice moving, covering a lot of ground.

As to price, not saying just at the moment, I would be interested in how people value him just on the information that you have. The price doesn't change what he is, or what he is suitable for, and there is such a difference in pricing between Canada here, and south of the border, that it makes it a little difficult to compare


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

Well he's defintately flashy, and looks like he has good bone and shoulder angles. That's about all I can say. I'd probably pay $900-$1,000 tops, considering that he's essentially an unbroke ten year old. That's even on the high end of what he'd fetch. Ofcourse, like you said, theres quite a difference between Texas and Canada. Our horse economy is beyond shot at the moment.


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## kywalkers2012 (Oct 25, 2011)

Well he is a very good looking horse. I'll at least give him that much. But, with him being an unbroke 10 year old, he wouldn't fetch a good $500 here. But, if he is what you want, fits what you are looking for and you are willing to pay a higher price, then go for it. It's really about what you are willing to pay and what you can afford to pay. It's not about his asking price, because he could be priced at $10k but if you aren't willing to pay that, then he obviously isn't the horse for you. He has nice angles and beautiful movement and ample bone, so I would pay $750 for him on a good day, depending on his temperament.


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## Thyme (Sep 4, 2010)

I really like him, he is one of my dream crosses (saddlebred X Draft). I see horses like him go for about 2000.00 to 4000.00 around here (not sure about western riding 'communities?'), especially once you getting him going in dressage (or since he has the potential) which is popular here.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

He's eye catching for sure. As for dressage he may or may not suit you. Flashy gaits for sure - I think he'd be a great looking mount (especially on low levels), but depends on if he likes the arena work (not every horse does unfortunately).

I can't price him really because I'm not sure what is his training. Sounds like he has no training at all under the saddle, right?


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

Price wise I am unaware of how much you guys pay for! I have to say though, for a 10yo gelding that in unbroken, you'd pay about €2000, maybe €3000 if the breeding lines were good enough. 
Personally, for me, low level dressage isn't all about flashy gaits, its about having a horse that is calm enough, but has enough motor, to do what you want and what you ask for. He is a stunner, no doubt about that, but you'd have to spend a lot of time getting his muscles up, and getting the muscle from the underneath of his neck. I'm doing it with Duffy, long and low, long and low... 
It may just be me, and I'm no expert, but I'm not happy with the trot pictures. I can't put my finger on it, its just not something I would look for ina dressage horse.

For his price range, is there anything else you can look at that has been started?


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## Equilove (Feb 21, 2011)

Oh my gosh, he's stunning... look at that face... that's the kind of horse I'd like to have, not necessarily for competition. Although he has good elevation and stride length in these photos, he is at liberty so a lot could change once he starts moving under saddle. Can't tell for sure but he looks very long through his back.

I can't stop looking at these pictures. Haha


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

He sure is handsome and has that eyecatching quality that I like for the show ring. He seems to be willing to use his shoulder nicely, when given a reason. His neck is a tad short and thick at the throatlatch, which MAY impede his willingness to flex at the poll, but I would not say that is necessarily a fact. As for his ability to do dressage, it all depends on if he wants to do it. He certainly has the raw material for it. A diet might improve him all around.

I like him and would be willing to give him a try, if it was me. Hopefully, he is not as green as he appears to be, by the description. At least he may not have had BAD training. Let us know what you decide.


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## Bellasmom (Jun 22, 2011)

Green 10 yr old grade gelding? Big red flag for me & essentially worthless in my neck of the woods. I would assume he is fairly pricey, judging by the professional pictures and beautiful presentation (not a Craigslist ad, for sure, lol). But if you like him and are willing to pay what they want, go for it. I would be asking ALOT of questions about this horse's past & why he's just started training at his age.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

LOL, the photos, are taken by the person who has him at her facility, she is an awesome photographer and is excellent at marketing. She was the person who found Ace for me, so I'm favorably inclined towards her.

Here is Bens story

Ben belongs to a very aged gentleman, he and his wife both have troubles even getting around, but bred horses for many years. They bred some very neat and interesting crosses, all bred to produce great movement such as Hackney Arabian crosses (on awesome mare I trained for them back home.) Ben was in the group of horses that was one of the last that they bred. His age is within 2 years (The owner thinks he is 8 this year, but I put him as "ten" to be on the safe side). Like I said, very aged gentleman.

Ben was born, not handled, chuted, gelded and then untouched. He was brought to me the first time two years ago pretty much untouchable....and BIGGGGG lol We backed up to the arena, unloaded and herded him into a box stall. I'd let him into the arena, free longe, (round pen style) and herd him back in, and got the halter on in ten days. He was actually VERY easy to halter break thank GOD because he's huge hahaha. He was nervous and scared but ALWAYS very respectful! He learned quickly and I did get him saddled and bridled. That August I had a bad accident and broke my back. W came to pick up Ben and take him home since I wouldn't be able to continue. He was ready to back the trailer up and I said no no...he'll load. He was shocked at the progress Ben had made , loading into his tiny low roofed cattle trailer! 

Fast forward to spring 2010.. W brought Ben back. He couldn't really afford to pay me so we made a deal... He wants a base price on the horse and I can have what ever I sell him for over that...however I broke my leg badly, and barely made it through my own show season.... SO Ben sat... He got some work done over last winter, then show season FILLED up my barn and he sat again. This summer C took him on as a project working as she had time, and since fall he's been in 4x a week now. He's saddled and bitted and very much more sacked out, she's done great with him. I am very pleased. We hope to start ground driving and riding him very soon!

This horse is absolutely captivating, he has such presence and his movement is TOO COOL! He will look SO INCREDIBLE as a dressage horse!


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

She may be a nice lady, but when you're trying to sell a horse, anything goes I'm afraid!

There are too many red flags in this for me. 8 or 10??? If the guys is/was a breeder, where are the papers? Nervous, now I appreciate he hasn't been handled, but do you really want a horse of a nervous disposition?

It sounds like any sort of formal training has been on and off with this boy too, I prefer something that has its training, then turned away. not turned away and then has its training  

Go and see him though, take someone with you, and look at other horses too as a comparison, don't just settle on the first you see.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

He's magnificent, go for it. I'd wondered about a thickish throatlatch but perhaps it's just the pics. I'm sure he'll be awesome for lower level dressage or even better.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

GH, it sounds like you two have a type of bond, and I don't ever discount the value of that. Life is just too short to deny yourself something that will enrich you, IMO. If you tell this person you would take him off their hands and give him a GREAT home, will that make a difference to them?


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## Bellasmom (Jun 22, 2011)

DuffyDuck, I'm betting there aren't any papers, he is a draft/thoroughbred/saddlebred cross. Sounds like his breeders didn't really have a breeding program per se, just bred random "neat and interesting" crosses.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

It is hard not to be distracted by his beauty. Can't see much conformation wise although he looks to be a nice, solid type and defo my kind of horse.

Couldn't agree more with this:


DuffyDuck said:


> Personally, for me, low level dressage isn't all about flashy gaits, its about having a horse that is calm enough, but has enough motor, to do what you want and what you ask for.


So I think a lot will depend on his attitude and trainability. Having very little training can actually be a huge bonus as starting from the start and doing it right the first time is easier than retraining bad habits, even with an older horse :wink: 

I broke in a 13 year old last year and he was the easiest horse I have backed in a long time as he had a good mind and willingness to learn. Much much easier than trying to retrain an equivilent horse that has been subjected to ineffective/incorrect training throughout their life, so personally I wouldn't worry too much about his lack of training.

Price wise its hard to say, as Endiku mentioned, here in Texas he wouldn't fetch much at all (if anything) which is sad because he is a nice type. However, if I was in the market and liked his attitude I'd pay up to $1000 for him, papers don't mean diddly quat to me and I don't think you'll need them for what you want to do


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

I have zero issue with buying a gelding without papers for a using horse, or a dressage horse, papers mean diddley squat to the judge when you are in there.

IDK, he is highly priced for what he is me thinks, but you know what it's like when you see a horse, and then a while later he pops up again and you still like him.....BUT there is a complication I may be offered the chance to buy another horse that my heart screams IF YOU GET THE CHANCE JUST DO IT!!


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

I passed on a horse this past winter that I am still kicking myself over. Even though I found and am riding a great trail horse and one that is certainly a keeper, I still think about the one that got away.

Since the black has been around for a few years and is probably not going anywhere fast (possibility due to his high selling price for what he is). I would wait to see about the other horse before making up my mind.

As far as looks are concerned (pictures being what they are) - I certainly like what I see and black is always my preference.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Golden,

I think you have already decided in your heart. You don't strike me as someone who makes frivolous decisions, so my guess is that you have already decided on this, after much thought, and that it is probably a good choice. I think he is stunning. The only thing negative that went through my head when I saw him was "hard to fit to a saddle, he's pretty wide" but maybe that's just the photo.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

Thanks guys, I don't know how your papers work... we still have a pass thing though that has to be given out by a vet that will check teeth etc to confirm age of horse then give it a birthday of 1 Jan!

Golden Horse, like I said, try it  He may be exactly what you want, and you don't want to feel like you've missed out on something! Like I said, take a knowledgable friend with you so you don't just fall in love with him, and make your decision.

Good luck!


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

LOl, taking a friend will be a definite for this one! 

I need to take some time and visualize what I want to do here. The other horse calls to my heart, but my head struggles to see her actually doing what I want.

Ben here I can totally visualise doing and being just what I want, but I see a lot of work involved. If he was started I would be running to see him, but as he is.....need to sleep on it a day or two.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

Golden Horse said:


> LOl, taking a friend will be a definite for this one!
> 
> I need to take some time and visualize what I want to do here. The other horse calls to my heart, but my head struggles to see her actually doing what I want.
> 
> ...


He is a handsome boy though. He has that 'Look at me!' which will be great for shows, my only worries are his age at not being broken in lol! And when and if you get him vetted you can always ask your vet to clarify on the age thing!

Let us know what happens


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## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

Wow he is a beauty, he looks like a lot of horse though. How are you at bouncing? Just me, but at our age an already trained horse seems a wiser choice. Then again you can always put your BGP on and go for it!!


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Lol, it's the lot of horse that is attractive. He certainly looks alert, but who knows what he is like to deal with, may be a pussy cat, could be the veritable devil.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Courtney (May 20, 2011)

He'd sure look good in the pasture with Ace...

I like this guy a lot. He's got that LOOK to him that screams, "look at me!". His head is lovely, he's got nice legs and he looks solid. The only thing that would cause me to stop and think is the fact that he's 8-10 and green, but then again... I'd see it as a challenge and be dying to take it on. He could be an AWESOME horse, a real diamond in the rough. Maybe you can try to talk them down on price?


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Update, video now available


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## amp23 (Jan 6, 2011)

Wow does he cover a lot of ground at his trot.. I think he is gorgeous! The only thing I'd be worried about, like others have already said, is the fact that he's a little older and still green. Maybe see if they're leniant on his price because of that? If you have the skill or a trainer to help you I think he would be a good project


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

That's the problem, I really shouldn't be looking at a project

Really I shouldn't

Uhu, don't need no project


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## myhorsesonador (Jun 21, 2009)

Golden Horse said:


> That's the problem, I really shouldn't be looking at a project
> 
> Really I shouldn't
> 
> Uhu, don't need no project


 
Ok then how about you buy him, then send him to me here in FL for a while. :wink: I'm going to be a horse trainer so you could be my first customer! :lol:


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Very flashy. However for a dressage prospect I think he may have too much knee action. Although beautiful to watch, this will not be helpful when it comes time to lengthen strides in your tests as his tendency will be to lengthen 'up' rather than 'out' if that makes sense?


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

He is pretty handsome & seems like a quiet trainable disposition. I am not fan of his saddlebred movement,too high headed & too much knee action:-| {but that is coming from a stock horse girl,lol}. For dressage prospect I have seen nicer movers....


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

GH-he IS lovely. That is for sure. You obviously have a history with him as well as his owners. More so than anyone else that may be interested in him. Keep in mind-they can ASK for whatever they want. If they are SERIOUS about selling him, and I mean they care whether they sell him or not......then I would make them an offer. If they don't like it, let them try and market him for their price. Fact is, it is winter, he is older, unbroken....and there are many negatives. Others will most likely not see him as you do, and will most likely low ball offer also. At that point, perhaps the owner would be more willing to sell to you at a reduced price? 
I know it is risky......If it were me, depending upon the amount of $$, I would most likely just buy him, if I liked him as much and knew him as well as you do. But.....you could take the chance. My guess is he is not as marketable as the owners (and you even) think he is.
I understand totally-I bought a greenie a year and a half ago-went to buy a broke horse......lol. And have spent about $4k in training. Should have gone with the broke one....but fell in love.


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## RiverRat77 (Oct 11, 2011)

I know nothing about training horses or what I'd be looking for other than as far as being a good looking horse, he's gorgeous. Seems pretty fluid as far as movement, no real hitches or anything that would make me thing he looks "rough". Keep in mind, this is totally uneducated viewer speak here. My first thought when I watched the video was ****, he looks powerful... but he appears to be plenty gentle with a rider on his back. Seems to be a lot of trust there, walking him across pallets and throwing a large noisy tarp over his back.... Thanks for sharing the pics and video... made me wish this weekend was here so I could go down and ride the GF's horse.


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## azarni (Aug 17, 2008)

Better snap him up quickly, golden, or I'll be over there buying him myself  He is insanely adorable. Percherons and most of their crosses are incredibly intelligent, it's one of their defining traits. You can totally see it in him.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Adorable flashy, and not at all sensible.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

sarahver said:


> Very flashy. However for a dressage prospect I think he may have too much knee action. Although beautiful to watch, this will not be helpful when it comes time to lengthen strides in your tests as his tendency will be to lengthen 'up' rather than 'out' if that makes sense?



He will lengthen but it will take an experienced person to get it.

Also any new owner is going to have to undo some bad training so they better know what they are doing.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Maybe it's good that he hasn't had much training then, not so much to correct


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Golden Horse said:


> Maybe it's good that he hasn't had much training then, not so much to correct



With an experienced trainer,possibility.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

An experienced trainer in the future can affect the quality of the training he received in the past? With a time machine, or how?


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

:?: I'm still confused, most people, including myself are worried about this boys almost complete lack of training. What is it that concerns you Spyder?


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## nherridge (Oct 30, 2011)

Let's be honest. This is a grade horse, unbroke, awful conformation (I just hate his entire build in general for some reason) and while he is very very pretty, he is just not ideal for dressage (wayyy to much knee action in my opinion, and his gaits stink, but of course he is not trained). He is a huge project horse, the video says it all. Slow learning and very confused with a rider. 

I hope they aren't asking more than $200 for this unbroke, grade, sacked out horse. He is going to take to much work to even be worth paying for. I'd take him as a trail horse.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Ok to be honest, and yes he is an unbroke grade, but I still don't see him as awful.

I do get that he isn't best suited to dressage, and if I want to pursue that avenue I shouldn't be considering him.

I'm wondering though how you can say he is slow learning from that video, and as it is showing his VERY FIRST time with a rider I thought he did very well.

Now I think that they are asking to much for what he is, but you guys do need to remember that the market is not as far in the doldrums as it is in places south of the border.


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## nherridge (Oct 30, 2011)

I do not think he is an awful horse, but he should have enough ground training to know how to function at a walk with a rider. That just makes his monetary value go down to me. I really like his as a horse, but as a free horse.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

How do you figure awful conformation?
And how should a horse with no weight-bearing training automatically know how to balance with a rider on its back?


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## nherridge (Oct 30, 2011)

I don't blame him, I do however blame his poor training. Are they marketing him as a dressage prospect?


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## nherridge (Oct 30, 2011)

He should have weight bearing training before taking on a rider. IMO. I hate his back, his neck, his shoulder and his butt, it just all looks thrown together and thats probably due to breeding, and also him being out of shape and not properly worked.

Basically, if you are not looking for a project, skip him.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

I totally get that he would be a project, and I'm not at all convinced that I want a project, I already have projects :lol::lol:

I just think that you are being very harsh on a horse being shown carrying a rider for the first time, whatever his age it's a new experience for him, and I thought he handled it well enough.


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## nherridge (Oct 30, 2011)

I am not trying to be very harsh, or even harsh at all. I suppose I have little patience for people trying to sell a grade, unbroke horse with a real price tag. He didn't handle the ride badly, I do think the rider could have done better though. I suppose I have just seen first rides go better.


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## nherridge (Oct 30, 2011)

I do suppose I was asking to much of the horse and rider. My bad.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Just out of interest in this context why does grade have anything to do with it??

I totally get looking for a papered mare to compete with, always gives you an small possibility that if she does well enough you may want to breed her. A gelding however has just one purpose, to do well in the ring, and breed papers are not going to help that at all.

I can understand maybe wanting papers on a youngster to give you an idea how they will develop, but on a grown horse, who is gelded, is never going to go near a show that needs papers, what value do they truly add?


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## nherridge (Oct 30, 2011)

When I say grade, I mean nothing to do with papers, simply breeding. I am not much for showing crosses I suppose.


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## nherridge (Oct 30, 2011)

And this specifically screams BYB to me - ick ick ick.


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## Hidalgo13 (Dec 24, 2010)

I find him gorgeous, but OMG HE IS HUGE! :shock:
I wasn't expecting such a giant. :lol: Don't know anything about conformation but he doesn't seem to awful to me there. As for a prospect, again I know zilch, but is there a professional dressage trainer you could ask to see if you could make him work?


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Nhheridge-I realize you are new here, and, as a newbie I am supposed to be extra nice. However, frankly, I find you rude and tactless. It would be my opinion that, taking into account that perhaps this is your first "forum" experience ever-you may need to "read more and post less" until you can be a bit nice to respected members of the community. 

Sorry-off track but posts were uncalled for. Many of us have grade horses who could easily outperform some registered ones. To many of us, a piece of paper does NOT increase value.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

nherridge said:


> When I say grade, I mean nothing to do with papers, simply breeding. I am not much for showing crosses I suppose.


Once again, bred in a backyard from unknown stock, or bred in a palace with a pedigree littered with big names, it really doesn't matter if the horse will perform at the right level.

Look I'm not being defensive, and I'm not blind to his faults, but he is the last of a line of horses that a guy bred with an eye to huge movement, the breeder is in his 90's now, so is out of the breeding game. 

Personally I really like him, but I'm not sure that I want a project, and I'm not sure he will do the job I want, but can you imagine him in a jousting tournament 

I have a long list of more suitable candidates, so the shopping will probably go on, at least the window shopping will, until I know, or find just what I want.


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## ichliebepferde (Sep 8, 2011)

JMO- I wouldn't spend 4500 (what they are asking) for a horse that isn't even broke. maybe 1,000.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

nherridge,

I could care less about papered horses, especially geldings. I am no longer in the breeding game and I simply could care less. I will ride anything with four legs and the heart to do as I ask. Some of the best dressage/event/jumping horses I have ridden and showed were cross bred mutts. They were not "BYB" horses, but were carefully combined to create athletic and able horses. 

So, be careful throwing insults at the mutts. They may just outshine those finely bred heartless horses I get in training from time to time.

I suspect that with a little more mileage under your belt, you might learn that those "papers" don't get that horse over that jump.


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## Hidalgo13 (Dec 24, 2010)

> JMO- I wouldn't spend 4500 (what they are asking) for a horse that isn't even broke. Maybe 1,000.


You need to understand that in our neck of the woods (Canada) the horse market is very much alive, and that for 1000$ (in most places) you can't get much. Depending on the area, maybe you can get a decent yearling for that. Certainly not a trained horse though. (unless someone is dying to give it away or something). But if you want something decent that IS trained, you need to look into the higher thousands.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Agreed with others regarding grade horses. Let me assure you, my horse is registered and she has much poorer conformation than this guy. :wink: Just because its breeding is recorded doesn't mean it was good in the first place.

In regards to your comments about conformation, could you please explain a little more about what it actually is about his conformation that you dislike? These comments are not helpful and add nothing to the healthy discussion except tell us that you don't like this horse:



nherridge said:


> ... awful conformation (I just hate his entire build in general for some reason)...





nherridge said:


> I hate his back, his neck, his shoulder and his butt, it just all looks thrown together and thats probably due to breeding, and also him being out of shape and not properly worked.


All opinions are welcomed here, whether people disagree with them or agree with them. However, voicing entirely subjective opinions such as "I just don't like..." or "I hate..." without any form of supporting evidence or specific examples will lead to your comments being disregarded.

When it comes to conformation, often you will see 6 different posters highlighting 6 different faults in a horse. That is why such threads are created; the sharing of mutual knowledge for the benefit of the person looking to shell out the $$$.

So, it's fine that you don't like this horse's conformation but you should illustrate precisely why so that we can all see what you are talking about.


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## azarni (Aug 17, 2008)

Hidalgo13 said:


> You need to understand that in our neck of the woods (Canada) the horse market is very much alive, and that for 1000$ (in most places) you can't get much. Depending on the area, maybe you can get a decent yearling for that. Certainly not a trained horse though. (unless someone is dying to give it away or something). But if you want something decent that IS trained, you need to look into the higher thousands.


Yes, I will back this up 100%!!! If you're looking for a $1000 horse, you're looking at poorly bred foals or horses with major issues. In fact, I was just looking at a rescue horse that was $900, UNBROKE, and had a serious hock issue that would make him suitable for pleasure riding only. And here, $900 was a suitable price for him. To get a trained, talented horse up here, regardless of discipline, you're looking at at least $10,000.

My Percheron mare was unbroke and $2000, and she most certainly does NOT have the potential that this boy has - she's a pleasure/trail horse only and does not offer and sort of impressive movement. Her conformation isn't so great, with a straight hind end and a very long back.

Even for those of you who don't like saddlebred movement, you cannot deny that he tracks up well and will be able to engage his hind end with proper training. I think that $3500-4000 would be the accepted asking price for this boy here in Canada. Prices are ridiculous here right now!


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