# Riderless



## Northern

Amazing - thanks!


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## LoveStory10

Wow those are so cool! And that shows that if the horse is trained with kindness, it loves what it does


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## Crimsonhorse01

Who says they dont like what they do!


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## LoveStory10

Im not saying that at all, just saying that sometimes, very rarely, you get horses that are not trained kindly, then they end up hating what they do. Im just saying, I'm not saying anything bad by it at all


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## Crimsonhorse01

LoveStory10 said:


> Im not saying that at all, just saying that sometimes, very rarely, you get horses that are not trained kindly, then they end up hating what they do. Im just saying, I'm not saying anything bad by it at all


I was just saying that they most certainly must love what they do. My post had nothing to do with yours! lol :wink:


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## SorrelHorse

Hehe, I've seen these before. I love watching them


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## MacabreMikolaj

Ironically, aside from the cutting horse, the other ones are doing it out of pure obedience and drill - not love. Most barrel horses spend their lives running that pattern over and over, they know what to do, and they don't know what to do if they can't do what they're supposed to. These are the same horses that are uncontrollable neurotic wrecks in the chute, and often the same horses that finally blow in the middle of an arena, severely injuring or killing their rider. There's a reason why the rider has fallen off to allow the horse to continue this way. As for the spinning horse, that's some good training as he's obviously being cued.

The cutting horse one I absolutely love, again it's a lot of training, but cutting horses get a lot more chances to really think for themselves and work that cow. A true cowboy relies on his horses ability to think for himself to help get the job done, and the video depicts a true range horse who's got some cow.

Sorry for being the downer, it's just that it's unfortunately opposite of what LoveStory10 said - it's more rare you'll find the horse that does his job out of sheer enjoyment, and FAR more often you'll find the horse who does his job just so he doesn't get whupped or yelled at.


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## LoveStory10

^^^ I see what you mean there with the barrels. I havent ever dine barrels so I wouldnt really know 

And your not being a downer, just voicing your opinion


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## ShutUpJoe

I disagree with you Macabre. I may be training and the horses know the pattern but plenty of horses dump their riders and DO NOT finish the pattern. As for the spinning, even on cue he wouldn't do it if he didn't want to.


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## MacabreMikolaj

Exactly. Finishing the pattern does not in the slightest way indicate a "love" for the job. That's like saying a showjumper must hate show jumping because he doesn't jump the course when his rider falls off. A horse that finishes a barrel pattern has it SO ingrained into his head, he MUST do that, or bad things will happen to him. Bringing human emotion into it is silly, horses do not think like we do.

As for the reining horse, I'm sorry, but that's just as silly. That's like saying if he had a rider on him, he wouldn't do it if he didn't like it. It's called training. It has nothing to do with human emotion - you shouldn't have to be touching or riding your horse to make him/her do certain things.

Show me the video where the rider falls off and the horse immediately stops and waits so as to avoid causing any further injury to his rider due to his good training and I will be FAR more impressed.


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## smrobs

Give me a horse like the one at 3:00 any day. VV




 
When I get off (whether I fall or step off) I want my horse to stop right there. To me, that is incredibly dangerous for a horse to keep running when you fall off cause what if your foot is stuck in the stirrup?

Anyway, back to the OP. I love the video of the cutting horse. Any cutting horse that loves his job is a good one and they have a natural instinct to do it. The horse that is spinning, even if it was a trained trick, is still very entertaining cause it's not something that you see very often.


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## MacabreMikolaj

Niiiiice smrobs, I fully agree. We put our horses through "fall training", because I want them to halt IMMEDIATELY if someone even begins to fall. Haha, my old gelding was so well trained, you couldn't do "around-the-world" at a walk because the minute he felt your leg swing over, he'd immediately stop and not even threat of death would make him move again. He was a horse trained specifically for children, so this was a necessary goal. Obviously on my horses now, I want them to do as I ask, when I ask, but when I eat dirt, they better be stopped!

It saved my life on Playboy - we slipped on icy ground once, and he went down hard, crushing my metal English stirrup around my foot. When he jumped to his feet, I was dangling like a Christmas ornament, and screaming for help. It took a good 5-10 minutes for my sister to hear me and come rescue me. Playboy did not move an inch, despite the extreme pain to his side (he was tender for weeks).

My stomach churns to this day when I think of how that might have turned out. :?


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## ponyboy

I think the point of the thread was to show that some horses do like their jobs because they'll do them even without a rider. I've seen jumpers do this kind of thing too...


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## MacabreMikolaj

ponyboy said:


> I think the point of the thread was to show that some horses do like their jobs because they'll do them even without a rider. I've seen jumpers do this kind of thing too...


And we're just saying it's not necessarily true. Most horses will do their job because they've been drilled through it so many times, it's all they know. I don't label animals with human emotion. It's like believeing your horse trots up to you in the pasture because he loves you - I'm sure he likes you ok enough, but mostly he knows hanging around you means food. Animals don't think in quite as complex terms as love and hate. They think in terms of reason and ration - what action is most likely to accomplish their own personal goals for survival and a comfortable existance.


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## ShutUpJoe

Man some of you guys can be such a buzz kill. You guys make a big huge deal over everything. Then you attack someone for speaking up for themselves. @@ 

Clearly the horses were not FORCED to finish the courses, cut the cattle or spin. That was the whole point of my thread. All you had to do was ignore it. I know the horses have run the pattern enough to know that is what they are supposed to do. I know that a well trained horse would stop when the rider falls off. BUT I didn't put that in my original post. I didn't want an opinion on that! I wasn't saying look how WELL TRAINED THESE HORSES ARE!


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## MacabreMikolaj

Don't post if you don't want opinions. The world is not a place where everyone can oooh and aaaah over you because you're so perfect. It's a place where everyone has a mind and a voice. I have just as much right to my opinion as you do to yours.

Kindly showed me exactly where I attacked someone. We were having a discussion - something typically intelligent people are able to do without freaking out.

It's cute how you're only mad because I essentially pointed out that a video you thought was so awesome was very likely a video of a horse that got beat on a regular basis to the point where he's a neurotic mess and would trample a small child in his effort to finish the course. Or do you rather just not think about those things in your sunshine world of lollipops?


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## speedy da fish

here is one of my fave. 'riderless' videos to brighten up the thread


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## Strange

That horse almost caught a leg on that fence. I was more horrified than anything else. Granted, that's quite a feat, but not something I would want my horse doing ever.


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## ponyboy

MacabreMikolaj said:


> It's cute how you're only mad because I essentially pointed out that a video you thought was so awesome was very likely a video of a horse that got beat on a regular basis to the point where he's a neurotic mess and would trample a small child in his effort to finish the course.


So you're saying the horse didn't notice that the rider had fallen off? What is your basis for believing that? 

Your theory that the horse finished the pattern because it's been beaten into him is just as unprovable as any other. That certainly wasn't the case with the jumper I mentioned before. Nobody can know what a horse really thinks - It is common sense that we are talking about _beliefs_ here, not facts. I think you're taking things out of context.

But while we're on the subject, if you believe that horses only listen to people out of fear or the promise of food, how do you justify riding? Do you just not care that your horse might be miserable?


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## smrobs

It wasn't that the horse didn't _notice_ the rider had fallen off, because I'm sure that he had. It was that he hadn't been trained to _care_ if the rider had fallen off. Most barrel horses (especially those that act like complete schizoids) do nothing their whole riding life except run that pattern so that is all he knows. And I don't know about you but in the races I have seen, it is a rare thing to see a rider that isn't either yanking on their horse's face to get them to stop and turn or jabbing them with spurs and an over/under every stride. I would consider that getting beat on a regular basis. I wear spurs on my broke horses but the last time that I had to use one with any more than just a slight nudge to get what I wanted was over a year ago.


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## MacabreMikolaj

Thanks smrobs. You got the gist of what I was saying. I'm not saying he WAS beat, I said it was LIKELY. Knowing the barrel racing circuit and watching the neurosis of a barrel horse, these horses have partially cracked minds coming into an arena. They're so geared up and amped up, it's very likely they ARE oblivious to a rider falling off. Their only job in life is to get around that pattern the fastest. You drill that into ANY creature enough, and you're going to have an animal that can do it on it's own.

You're just taking words from my mouth now - I never said it WAS, I said it was LIKELY. The OP threw a snit fit because she didn't like me voicing my opinions, and I am merely pointing out the fallacy of her temper tantrum.

I don't try to be a downer by natural, but I DO honestly find it concerning that people think these animals are happy. Barrel racing is like it's own hidden underground grotesque industry that could darn near rivel the big lick TWH for abuses suffered. Just like the TWH, there are obviously people who are attempting to move away from it, but between the constantly spurring, whipping and massive vicious bits they pound these horses with, it's disappointing more people aren't aware of how abusive most barrel racing is, and how few (no) rules they have to protect the welfare of the horse. You could literally run a horse in a barbed wire bit and nothing is stopping you.


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## mom2pride

I agree a bit with macabre, especially with gaming horses; most of those horses don't know how to walk, and if they do, once you get them 'hyped up' the calm goes out the window. Now this isn't every gamer, as I teach every horse I own to STOP when they feel me falling off, as do others, but the vast majority aren't focused on that aspect of training...they just want a fast horse, who can run the patterns blindfolded-when the horse is burnt out, or no longer will go in the gate, they are usually sold off, and a new one takes their place; many gaming horses will game 6-7 months out of the year, and in the off season, geuss what they do? Practice their patterns... I think I would know how to finish a pattern if my rider fell off too. Like I said, this is not ALL gaming horses, but I would say 70% of the people I showed with when I showed were like this, so it is a fairly safe generalization that many are, and for good reason.

As far as how these horses are handled, again, I have to agree with macabre again; have you ever watched even national finals type barrel racing? Those riders look like they are going to take off flying off their horses backs they are so busy kicking them. And of course at the same time they are flacking them with their bats or romels. My trainer when I was a kid would roll over in her grave if she watched some of the vids now a days of gaming horses/riders. Not only are the horses so hyped that they are uncontrollable, but the riders have no where near a quiet seat, and I'm sorry but I don't care WHAT the discipline, you can ride with a quiet seat and still get the most from your horse!!!! Plus it looks plain ridiculous to ride like a flying fairy! You're riding a horse, so darn it put your arms and legs down and flippin' ride!!!!


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## ShutUpJoe

We DRILL a lot of stuff into our horses head. It isn't my fault those horses didn't have the proper things DRILLED into their head. That WAS NOT THE POINT OF MY THREAD!

I'll address the other comments on me "temper tantrum" later.


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## speedy da fish

Strange said:


> That horse almost caught a leg on that fence. I was more horrified than anything else. Granted, that's quite a feat, but not something I would want my horse doing ever.


I know it did give it a bang! Listening to what the person behind the camera was saying and the fact that they where laughing at the poor think i dont blame him for jumping out!


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## ponyboy

smrobs said:


> And I don't know about you but in the races I have seen, it is a rare thing to see a rider that isn't either yanking on their horse's face to get them to stop and turn or jabbing them with spurs and an over/under every stride. I would consider that getting beat on a regular basis.


If I'm a horse, that's an argument for either stopping or trying to run out of the ring. Not continuing on doing something I hate.

And macabre, I agree with you about barrel racing but that is not what we're discussing here either. I can't help but notice you avoided my other questions.


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## ShutUpJoe

Ok so..

I apologize for my wording in my earlier post. That was immature of me. I was having a rough day. I don't take back what I said, just the way I said it. Nobody is going to learn from rude comments and general meanness. Especially on the internet where you can't talk face to face. 

That is why I said that I would come back to discuss my "temper tantrum". I needed to space myself from this topic until I had a more level head.

I'm not saying that I don't agree with the people who think a horse should stand stock still when someone falls off. I completely agree with that. One of the things that did bug me was the fact that Macabre went on about how the horses felt they had to finish to course without knowing any specific history on the horses. The one horse even CAME BACK to finish the course. He ran off the opposite direction and then ran the third barrel. From what I see it looked like they had closed the gate to the chute. So he probably thought the only way to get into the chute was to finish the third barrel. That is the reason I liked that one. Of course the last two videos are so out of focus and distorted I can't really tell what the riders part played in it all.

If this was a "lollipop" world every horse would be perfectly trained and think riding was the greatest thing since alfalfa. It's not. I didn't post those videos to open up a discussion about how poorly trained these particular horses are. As you said, this is a public forum and you can say what you want. You could have also, started a new topic on teaching your horse to stop if you were to fall off. 

I did feel a little attacked. I wanted to share these videos because 

A. That horse looks really awesome spinning without a rider. He looked a bit proud (sorry for the "human" emotion) himself after he finished the spin. He is a very pretty horse.

B. That horse is cutting cows by himself! How many ranchers want one of those? He's awesome at it. It made me wonder if the breeding that people put into horses actual produces cowy horses the way we produce field hunting pointing bred dogs.

C. The last two were cool because I have seen several barrel races and used to board at a western barn that did a lot of training and I've never seen a horse finish the course on it's own. As I said above I thought the last one was cool because he actual CAME BACK and finished the last barrel.

Call it what you want, I just thought the videos were cool. I will not argue over this anymore though. I'm a passive person and don't like arguing much.


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## PechosGoldenChance

I thought the videos were cool, whether or not it's right for a horse to do it out of will or just because it's been drilled into their heads. The barrel racers finished, obviously because thats what they know to do. Some might not finish and just take off back to the chutes, others finish...thats just the way it is. Either way, yea it's cool even though it happens all the time. The horse spinning...thats pretty cool. And the cutter...that was just awesome!!


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## Lucara

Yikes, I have to admit, the video Smrobs posted made me cringe. Some of those riders are extremely harsh on their horses mouths.  A few the riders were the only reason their horses fell down was because they pulled so frickin hard on their reins as they were turning. Ouch!


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## riccil0ve

I like how smrobs' video showed the worst of the worst barrel racers, haha. That being said, I know a girl who games, and she has never dropped a horse on a turn. The difference is that the girl I know knows how to ride, and the people in that video try their darndest to stay on and be very, very fast.

I also have to back up Macabre. I know for a fact she cares about her horses. The threads she starts are usually to find a way to better work with her horses, or overcome a problem. If she didn't care if her horses were miserable, would she bother asking for advice and input? Sorry, I just happen to be a Macabre [and Jynx] fan. =]

About the original videos, I do think the spinner is cute. He does look proud. Yes, I bet he was being cued. Regardless, it was neat. The cutting horse is also beautiful to watch. I'd love to work cows with my little QH filly. She's simply too "smart" to prance around a ring like a robot, she needs to be able to think some. The barrel racers probably only know to barrel race. That's what they do. It is common in the gaming world. Horses learn to run really fast, turn even faster, and if they want to avoid a beating, they have to do just that. It's sad, but it happens. Not EVER gamer, but a lot.

I have also seen a horse take a jump in the Rolex [I think] after losing a rider. The horse was confused, very excited, and was cantering around like, "What's going on? Rider? Oh, jump.... Oof, what now? Huh?" You could see it in his face.


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## MadeiraRox

That was SO cool!!!!! Thanks for putting it up!


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