# New Here & Seeking Advice



## Cacowgirl (Feb 19, 2011)

When the government steps in,it's very hard to go by your own agenda. In CA, they have gone in , confiscated, PTS, & then won in court. Sometimes they can put in not being able to own animals in your future. You sound like a very caring and knowledgeable owner to me, but that may not count for much at this point. May be time for some tough decisions. good luck!


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

As long as you have all your receipts and billings to back up your assertions of proper feeding and vet care, that will go a long way toward proving your case. Also, if the vets involved are willing to write letters to bolster your arguments, that will help tremendously.

I'm not going to say whether or not you should let your mare go, but I will tell you that animals don't always tell you when they're ready to go to the Bridge. Some do, but many more do not. Horses are prey animals, and to show weakness is deadly.

Over the 34 years I've owned horses, only one has been a prissy little diva about pain. All the rest have been extremely stoic, and if it got to the point where they were actually showing signs of pain, it had become unbearable. Not preaching, just giving you something to think about.


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## blueeyeddreamer (Oct 17, 2012)

Thank you for your replies. I have put a call in to my regular vet to have him come out for a wellness check, and discuss euthanasia. I am making arrangements for a hole to be dug as well (yes, it is legal to bury here). I have had many disappointments this year, and I suppose I just couldn't bear losing my old girl too so close to other very stressful events, but I knew the time was coming. Just moving it along a little quicker than I would have liked.


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## peppersgirl (Aug 24, 2012)

That AC officer sounds like an idiot who's trying to push her weight around. I agree, if you have all of the vet paperwork to prove you have been doing what you can for these animals, you shouldn't have much to worry about. When I was growing up we had an old gelding who was a bag of bones, And we did everything we could to get him to gain weight. We had AC called on us several times over this horse,but they would just check because the horses always had clean water and hay, plus we could back up our story with feed reciepts and vet bills.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

The guidelines for minimum equine care for your area should be available online. If you are unable to find them, ask your vet, farrier, trainer or local horse council.

IMHO - the blind app should be kept separate. If she is nervous and at the bottom of the pecking order, that is less than ideal for her.

Is there any reason your stallion is still intact? As a gelding he would likely keep weight better.


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## blueeyeddreamer (Oct 17, 2012)

Thank you, Peppersgirl - some horses just are hard to keep, regardless of what you do. 



mls said:


> IMHO - the blind app should be kept separate. If she is nervous and at the bottom of the pecking order, that is less than ideal for her.


For a long time I did keep my appy separate, but she seemed to languish in her own pen, and became even more depressed and unable to maintain weight. I even bought her a goat, which neither really took to each other. She wanted to be back with the girls - every time we went for walks she followed their sounds until she was able to nose through the fence with them. It took her a bit to get used to, but she seems much happier out there, and has picked up weight. Not as much as I'd have liked to see her very fleshy, but I don't feel she will ever get to that point, and my vet agreed.



mls said:


> Is there any reason your stallion is still intact? As a gelding he would likely keep weight better.


He was an asset my parents fought over in their somewhat recent divorce. He is a homebred, and my father would never have him gelded, and he's never been bred. He has his own 2 acre paddock and run in shed separate from the others, and he's generally pretty decent to deal with. Now that he's legally mine, and I want to eliminate some risk, I have discussed the subject of gelding with the same clinic that treated my cancer patient, and decided it was best to wait until the weather cooled and the bugs had left to minimize chance of infection. I was hoping to do that next month, and hopefully, he'll pack on a bit more weight easier and I won't have to feed him as much.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I'm going to tell you how I would deal with my own horses in your situation and then you can feel free to ask questions, use what works for you or toss out all of it if you don't feel good about any of it. 

For the horse with the tumor, I would call the backhoe and have the hole dug, big enough for 2. 

I would then euthanize the cancer patient and I would grieve. Cancer is so unfair. I would discuss quality of life issues with the vet while he was out there and see what HE thought about the blind horse. Actually, I'm fudging a little there as I would probably put her to sleep as well, because from what you're writing, her quality of life doesn't sound as good as I'd like it for my own horses. Sometimes the kindest thing you can do for the older/disabled/poor doer horse is to let them go, as much as it hurts you. 

I'd buy a nice warm blanket for the stallion, soon-to-be-gelding, geld him when the weather is right and then I'd start pouring the feed to him. 

If AC showed up again, I'd refuse to allow her on the property or I'd call for a supervisor. 

I don't know your laws where you are but here, if they have access to feed & water, unless I'm actively abusing them (and BOY HOWDY is that a broad definition here in OK) nobody can do a thing.


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## blueeyeddreamer (Oct 17, 2012)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I'm going to tell you how I would deal with my own horses in your situation and then you can feel free to ask questions, use what works for you or toss out all of it if you don't feel good about any of it.


Thank you for your honesty!



Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> For the horse with the tumor, I would call the backhoe and have the hole dug, big enough for 2.
> 
> I would then euthanize the cancer patient and I would grieve. Cancer is so unfair. I would discuss quality of life issues with the vet while he was out there and see what HE thought about the blind horse. Actually, I'm fudging a little there as I would probably put her to sleep as well, because from what you're writing, her quality of life doesn't sound as good as I'd like it for my own horses. Sometimes the kindest thing you can do for the older/disabled/poor doer horse is to let them go, as much as it hurts you.


I think I am regrettably coming to that decision. My vet is scheduled to be out Monday for a wellness check, and to discuss end of life options and procedures, and I'll most likely have him back within the week to do so. He had previously told me that the App would slowly get worse, but I felt the need to give her a fighting chance as I have for my other mare. I have a heart, I can't just give up without giving it a chance. 



Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I'd buy a nice warm blanket for the stallion, soon-to-be-gelding, geld him when the weather is right and then I'd start pouring the feed to him.


Everyone has always had nice heavyweight blankets for when the weather gets cold - and are layered if needed.



Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> If AC showed up again, I'd refuse to allow her on the property or I'd call for a supervisor.
> 
> I don't know your laws where you are but here, if they have access to feed & water, unless I'm actively abusing them (and BOY HOWDY is that a broad definition here in OK) nobody can do a thing.


The woman making the calls is the supervisor, though I'm told there is someone higher than her and that if this continues I can contact the local sheriff's department to speak with the person overseeing animal control. My vet has spoken to AC this morning, and informed them of my plans to euthanize and geld. I have not heard from them myself.

Laws vary so much from state to state. I just read through the state handbook for horse care, and I believe I'm doing everything right. They have good hay, clean water, shelters and fence in good repair (all board fencing here...), they're fed daily and I keep their turnout areas from becoming mucky and overrun with manure and wasted hay. I hate walking through it, so why should they. Every one of them comes right up to me, nosing for treats and asking to be scratched and rubbed. In my experience, abused animals do not do that.

I feel that I am being targeted for some reason, despite having done nothing wrong. I have been taking care of the problems as best I can and consulted with my veterinarians.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

blueeyeddreamer said:


> Thank you for your honesty!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sounds like you're doing everything right indeed! My horses should be so 'spoiled'! LOL! 

I hated suggesting putting down the blind horse, I know that otherwise she sounds perfectly healthy. But.... I had a gelding who got run through a fence and when the fence broke (new place hadn't got rid of all the barbed wire yet) it snapped up and blinded one eye. He got so spooky on that one side that it was pretty amazing. He had his one good eye and he adjusted and is just fine now, but had it been both eyes, he'd have forced me to euthanize him because he just wouldn't have been safe to be around. It sounds like your mare is suffering because she's bottom of the pole, so to speak, and just isn't thriving. Maybe not being actively picked on or beat up but not thriving and doing well. Only you can make that call. 

I wish you good luck. Don't know why you're being picked on but stubborness and ignorance frequently go hand in hand and that's just plain scary.


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## blueeyeddreamer (Oct 17, 2012)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Sounds like you're doing everything right indeed! My horses should be so 'spoiled'! LOL!
> 
> I hated suggesting putting down the blind horse, I know that otherwise she sounds perfectly healthy. But.... I had a gelding who got run through a fence and when the fence broke (new place hadn't got rid of all the barbed wire yet) it snapped up and blinded one eye. He got so spooky on that one side that it was pretty amazing. He had his one good eye and he adjusted and is just fine now, but had it been both eyes, he'd have forced me to euthanize him because he just wouldn't have been safe to be around. It sounds like your mare is suffering because she's bottom of the pole, so to speak, and just isn't thriving. Maybe not being actively picked on or beat up but not thriving and doing well. Only you can make that call.
> 
> I wish you good luck. Don't know why you're being picked on but stubborness and ignorance frequently go hand in hand and that's just plain scary.


LOL I don't consider them spoiled, just loved. They've always had at least the basic care that they required.

When the App went blind, she spent the next 6 months or so in a stall and wouldn't come out no matter how much I enticed her with food, pushed from behind as someone pulled, or just pleaded with her for hours to come out. She has come a long way since then and willingly goes wherever I lead her. But, like you said, despite not being actively picked on, she has failed to thrive. The others don't really interact with her at all, and she sorta hangs out at the edges of their circle.

It's funny you should mention ignorance. When the AC supervisor came out the first time and was taking notes on names, breeds, etc. The mares were coming up the hill to where we were - 2 bay TBs, a brown QH and the flaxen chestnut roan app pony (she's 13 hands btw). She asked me if the app was a TB too and then asked what color she was, when I answered, she questioned that! You're here, investigating me, and have to ask such simple questions you should already know...


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

Through reading all your posts, I can tell that you really care for these horses, and that you are trying everything you can to help them. I'm in a situation similar to yours (regarding the unhealthy look of the horses) and I would be VERY upset if animal control accused me of neglect. This is all your need while you're trying to care for your sick horses, and worrying over what's best for them. This ac officer is ridiculous! Its obvious that you are doing everything possible- as you said the vet vouched for you. I could understand a case if the horses had never received veterinary care, but that is not the case here. I would call the manager and tell them to back off, or else you'll be taking it to the media (who will jump all over a story of ac harassing someone who is caring for a sick animal and has a vet helping- sick animals pull on people's heartstrings).
My guys starting to get skinny, and I really hope ac around here isn't like where you are, otherwise I may get someone knocking on my door too! 
Sorry for the rant, but this one hit close to home and I can see myself exactly in your position.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Blueyed, I am courious as to how your horse looks and wondering if you would post a photo? I have watched animal cops take horses that looked good while leaving others at places that they were starving them.


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

Also, if you post pics on here, you may get some valuable advice, or even comments that could help your side if things progress with the ac officer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## blueeyeddreamer (Oct 17, 2012)

OK. Got some pics taken today. 

I am aware of my TB mare's appearance, we have been fighting hard against a losing battle with cancer. The mare eats well, and is still very much her old self. 









Showing her tumor:









My stallion, soon to be gelding...









My blind app, who as stated before, has some anxiety and issues maintaining weight since the start of her disability, but yes, she has always been ewe-necked...









On AC's last visit, they decided they had a problem with this mare's weight as well. She is a 21yo TB.









I might add that these four horses are lawn ornaments, and are not, nor have they been in any sort of riding or training program for quite some time. All photos were taken today, 10/18/2012.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

That poor baby with the cancer....AWWWWWWW! Dadgumit that stuff's just no fair. She looks very sweet, but I can see why AC is concerned. It's valid and from the looks of that tumour, not likely to be able to be resolved, unless you start tube feeding her or can get her to eat 'horsey soup'. 

The 2nd guy, will probably pick up enough weight as soon as he's gelded, you mentioned he's a fence runner right? That will probably go away fairly quickly once he's snipped. 

The Appy mare and the 21 yo are both thinner than anybody likes, but certainly not thin enough for them to consider stepping in, I wouldn't think. Both of them would probably benefit from having sheets on full time right now and being stalled at least long enough to eat 2X/day or even over night if you can do that. That has helped my older ones to gain/keep weight when nothing else would do it. 

At the weight they're at, they are feeling the cold already, even if it's 60 they are probably cold. I'd toss a windproof sheet on all 4 of them and see if that didn't help some. 

I'm so sorry.


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## blueeyeddreamer (Oct 17, 2012)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> That poor baby with the cancer....AWWWWWWW! Dadgumit that stuff's just no fair. She looks very sweet, but I can see why AC is concerned. It's valid and from the looks of that tumour, not likely to be able to be resolved, unless you start tube feeding her or can get her to eat 'horsey soup'.


The cancer has been very rotten to deal with. The vets have told me that the chance of improving her current condition is poor, but that as long as she was happy and otherwise comfortable, let her live a bit longer. I have followed their instructions in regard to care and feeding. While the tumor does make it difficult to eat normally, it has not caused her a lack of appetite. She remains very aggressive with her feed, just takes her longer to finish now, but she does finish. On the colder days, I add in a bit of hot water. 

Her spirit has not diminished in the least. She manhandled my horse-savvy assistant yesterday.

I have spoken to two AC officers in two different states, and both comfortably feel that since I have veterinarians involved and are aware of the situation and have been advising me all along, that AC cannot step in and go against what a veterinarian has told me to do.

The vet's coming Monday to do check-ups and discuss future plans. I just met with the excavator about selecting a place and digging a hole.


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## Gremmy (Feb 17, 2009)

They're all a lot thinner than I'd like to see, especially around the topline. IMO their feeding does need to be looked at, TBs can be difficult to feed but it doesn't excuse poor condition - the challenge is finding the combination of feed that they will do well on - the nutrition board on here is a great source of info for such things :wink: 

However I don't think AC has any right to be involved based on those photos - the poor mare with the cancer is the only one that I would consider that level of thin, and there is a clear reason behind it with a number of vets to back you up. Since they are all quite lean, I can somewhat understand AC's suspicion, but if the AC officer is nitpicking on you feeding squares vs bales and criticizing your choice of a higher end feed then she really needs to re-read her job description. Unacceptable.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Gremmy said:


> They're all a lot thinner than I'd like to see, especially around the topline. IMO their feeding does need to be looked at, TBs can be difficult to feed but it doesn't excuse poor condition - the challenge is finding the combination of feed that they will do well on - the nutrition board on here is a great source of info for such things :wink:
> 
> *However I don't think AC has any right to be involved based on those photos* - the poor mare with the cancer is the only one that I would consider that level of thin, and there is a clear reason behind it with a number of vets to back you up. Since they are all quite lean, I can somewhat understand AC's suspicion, but if the AC officer is nitpicking on you feeding squares vs bales and criticizing your choice of a higher end feed then she really needs to re-read her job description. Unacceptable.


That statement caught me off guard. I am glad AC is involved. Several horses are thin not just 1. OP all you can do is prove what you are doing and that it is adaquate for the conditions of each horse. Your original post sounds as if you are doing things proper but I am concerned when it is 3-4 horses not just 1. I am not trying to shame you but maybe if we can help you. It is usually a care issue especially when you have a few with weight issues. Maybe the quality of what you are feeding is part of the issue. I will go back and double check what you are feeding as I don't remember.

Years ago I took care of a TB that was thin and the owner could never get it to gain weight. I wormed it a few times gave it extra feed (not alot but a little more than the avaerage horse) and it blossomed and gained weight easily. Now if theere are other health issues like cancer then that isn't controllable.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

I wanted to thank you for provinding the photo's and risk what people will post. I understand it is hard but with limited funds I would put the 1 with cancer down and the blind one down and consentrate on the other 2. I know it isn't easy but it will benifit the other 2 with more resources.


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

I agree with the above poster. I would, sadly, put the mare with cancer, and the blind one down. The blind horse is just not adapting well, and is suffering because of it. Read up on blind horses, and you will see that there are some that just cannot adapt to it- there may also be ideas you can try if you decide not to put her down. Putting down an animal, that is terminally ill, or in constant pain is never a bad thing. It means you care enough to end their suffering. Horse's don't think of pain like we do. All they know is that they hurt, and its an awful feeling to be in pain without knowing when it will end. I compliment you on your caring towards your horses, and know that you will make the right choice, which ever you choose. 
You may want to get your diet analyzed to ensure your horses are getting the proper amount of nutrients. A few minor things being off can greatly affect the overall health of the animal. You could get a horse nutritionist to help, or could do some research yourself. I educated myself on horse nutrition, and after analyzing my horse's diet, found him to be deficient in quite abit of minerals and vitamins. I thought I had been feeding them the best possible, but that wasn't the case. Sometimes its very hard to figure out a proper diet, and other times its no problem. My guess is that you have a few hard keepers. I'm sure that with a bit of research and math, you can find something that will work for your babies and pack on a few pounds. I think its great that you are here. It shows that you really care about the well being of your horses, and that's the best thing someone can have!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gremmy (Feb 17, 2009)

churumbeque said:


> That statement caught me off guard. I am glad AC is involved. Several horses are thin not just 1. OP all you can do is prove what you are doing and that it is adaquate for the conditions of each horse. Your original post sounds as if you are doing things proper but I am concerned when it is 3-4 horses not just 1. I am not trying to shame you but maybe if we can help you. It is usually a care issue especially when you have a few with weight issues. Maybe the quality of what you are feeding is part of the issue. I will go back and double check what you are feeding as I don't remember.
> 
> Years ago I took care of a TB that was thin and the owner could never get it to gain weight. I wormed it a few times gave it extra feed (not alot but a little more than the avaerage horse) and it blossomed and gained weight easily. Now if theere are other health issues like cancer then that isn't controllable.


How would that catch you off guard? As I said I can understand the suspicion given that they are all thin, but they came to the property to confirm proper care, and spoke to the vets involved. At this point yes, I believe that AC no longer has the authority to continue to "investigate" the OP.

I'm not comfortable advocating putting down either mare through a forum - the cancer will likely decide the one case, but I knew an ancient mare with cushing's who stopped being able to hold weight but maintained her "spark" and attitude for years before it was clear she was ready to go. I'm very glad that an authority meant to prevent animal cruelty and neglect did not force the owner to end her life as soon as she stopped being pleasing to the human eye.

With the appy, again, I would hesitate to recommend putting her down based on what the OP has said. Again, I don't want to deviate from the main topic which pertains to horse law, but if a "hard keeper" is having difficulty holding weight, is getting a lot of feed and is hyped up and appears to be burning the weight off as fast as they are putting it on, I immediately question the NSC levels in their feed and would suggest a lower starch/higher fat combination - possibly lower protein as well. Having looked up the feed they are on, the feed does contain molasses and a level of NSC that could use improvement. If the OP wants more input in regards to feeding hopefully she will start a thread for that purpose.

The blind mare may very well be unable to adjust to her vision loss, but I would hate to suggest putting her down when feeding may be the issue.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Gremmy said:


> How would that catch you off guard? As I said I can understand the suspicion given that they are all thin, but they came to the property to confirm proper care, and spoke to the vets involved. At this point yes, I believe that AC no longer has the authority to continue to "investigate" the OP.
> 
> I'm not comfortable advocating putting down either mare through a forum - the cancer will likely decide the one case, but I knew an ancient mare with cushing's who stopped being able to hold weight but maintained her "spark" and attitude for years before it was clear she was ready to go. I'm very glad that an authority meant to prevent animal cruelty and neglect did not force the owner to end her life as soon as she stopped being pleasing to the human eye.
> 
> ...


I didn't recommend putting down any horse. I told the OP that based on the info given, if they were mine that's what I would do. I was also very direct in saying that she could take the statements as she chose, either take something from them or not, they are her horses and it's her choice.


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## Gremmy (Feb 17, 2009)

Dreamcatcher I apologize if you felt my post was directed at you, it honestly wasn't. I fully respect the decision to put either horse down - I probably could have worded things better, but like everyone else my post is just how I would approach the situation. It is indeed entirely up to the OP and I wish her luck.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

honestly with 4 horses being that then I think there is more to the story . the office sounds very sincere but maybe some things going on that she doesn't know about . and just because someone says they are feeding a horse a certain amount doesn't make it true . or they may think a Bella hey waz 40 pounds and maybe it really weighs 20 because they never weighed. I'm actually surprise Animal Control hasn't seized the animals with the condition their in.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

up you said they are in a field of 4 you mention the 1 is getting a bale of hay a day so I just want to verify that you are feeding 4 bales of hay a day


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## KountryPrincess (Oct 23, 2012)

If you have horses that cannot eat hay efficiently, don't feed hay at all, that part of your post, I do not understand. There are many other options that will rapidly put weight on. I cared for my elderly arab mare who was missing many teeth and needed a totally soaked diet. It is not that hard to do. I would feed these guys soaked oat hay pellets, soaked alfalfa pellets, soaked senior feed, soaked beet pulp, and soaked rice bran. See a trend here?  A horse with, mouth sores or tumor or whatever should be on a *totally* soaked diet.

My old mare had to stay at a friends house for a couple of weeks when my mother was in a horrible accident back east one time. She was not fed properly and looked like a skeleton when I got back. She quickly put the weight back on once she was home, but that is how fast weight will drop if they aren't fed correctly.


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## chandra1313 (Jul 12, 2011)

Have you had their teeth looked at, a friend of mine had a gelding that was very thin. He kept the gelding at my place so I know that he was getting the right amount of feed so I told him that he needed to get his teeth looked at. I heard through the grapevine that when he took his horse to get shoes put on him that the guy told him he needed to have his horses teeth floated badly. Just a thought ;-) I can't see the pics so not sure what they look like. 

I hate hay waste and I bought one of those long steele metal water troughs and I fill that to the top and the horses can't destroy it, and there is very little if any hay on the ground around it.

I would let her hay comment go in one ear and out the other, as long as you have good hay and they are getting plenty of it.


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## wetrain17 (May 25, 2011)

Checking to see if there are any updates and what the OP has decided to do.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

My blind horses stay in pipe pens. One gelding is bonded with a mare, and thier pens are next to each other. They are happy next to each other. They are 30 ish , one over and one just under. I soak thier beet pulp and all in one feed, and the molasses just gives them that little initiative to finish all the feed! 
I only blanket if they act cold. I dont know the brand of supplement feed the OP speaks of, if it does not have a good fiber protien and fat level, she should try some other type of feed. Forage feed weight depends on the type of hay. A horse would require a minimum of 10-14 lbs of forage per feeding . I feed alfalfa and have 120 lb bales, and a feed a 4 " chunk(flake) per feeding .


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## blueeyeddreamer (Oct 17, 2012)

Animal control dropped their investigation. With three vets and a farrier backing me up, she really had nowhere to go. I had my regular vet out for a wellness check, and he had no issues with their conditions, feed or living conditions.


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## Cacowgirl (Feb 19, 2011)

Thanks for the update, glad things are going OK.


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