# Improving chances for a buckskin foal?



## Spirit Lifter (Apr 23, 2012)

So if - IN THEORY - I wanted to breed Spirit, what is the best path for the best chance of a buckskin fillie? She's palomino, her dam was palomino, her sire was sorrel. Only Chiilaa know how to post her pedigree as I haven't learned how yet. Her registration # is 4735453, born Hard As A Gem Stone on March 03, 2004 if you want to see the other colors in her line.

I used the coat calculator and looks like a buckskin sire gives me the best percentages to bring about a buckskin fillie.

I'm in the process of sending of her hairs/DNA for HYPP. Not taking the breeders word for it that she is N/N. 

I see on the testing form that I can also choose to get the results of genetic color/coat testing on Spirit.


http://www.horsetesting.com/EquineUS.pdf

If, again in theory, I wanted the best chance of a buckskin fille, is their a box or boxes I should check off in the coat section of the form I showed above?

Any assistance or comments on this are greatly appreciated! :think:


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## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

i would think, either a horse with a single cream gene, such as Buckskin, Pally, or a smokey black, however there is also the whole perlino, cremello route as well, but with those you also have the chance for a double dilute.

breeding to the perlino or cremello means they will for SURE pass on 1 cream gene, and because your mare also has 1 creme gene, she could pass hers on and create a double dilute, or not pass one on and create a single dilute, which would be a buckskin, pally, or smokey black.


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## Spirit Lifter (Apr 23, 2012)

Hold on there Little Kitty:lol:

Is it possible that you could break down that very good, analytical, experienced breeder talk down in laymen's terms? 

I'd have to do a whole lot of googlin' to make sense of that professor talk you just posted there!! :hide:

I get what you are saying for the most part so I think what you are saying is that there isn't 1 color coat to go with and that the having Spirit color tested doesn't help with increasing my odds for a buckskin?


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## tempest (Jan 26, 2009)

Well, I may not know a large amount of breeding and genetics but my BO bred a black stud to a palomino mare and they turned out a buckskin. Not sure how much help that is.

Try this.

http://www.horsetesting.com/CCalculator1.asp


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Ok. A buckskin is genetically E_, A_, Crcr. E means they are a black based horse, A means agouti is restricting black to the points, and Crcr means they have one copy of the cream gene, so are a single dilute.

A palomino is ee _ _ Crcr. Two copies of "red" instead of black at the E locus, so red based, no way of knowing her agouti status without testing, as it doesn't express on a red based horse, and one copy of cream, making her a single dilute.

For the best chance of getting a buckskin foal, you would want to breed to a stallion that was EE AA. Breeding to a Crcr would give you 50% buckskin, 25% bay, 25% perlino. CrCR would give you 50% buckskin, 50% perlino, and crcr would give you 50% buckskin and 50% bay.


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## Spirit Lifter (Apr 23, 2012)

I could even further muddy the water and add that I would also be happy with a Dun that had the buckskin look. Is that a red dun? Dunno. 

Me and my BO are contemplating a future breeding of Spirit and I really like the buckskin/Dun look with the black tail, mane and legs and the countershading/dorsal stripe! So I'm curious is it all just a poo poo shoot or what is the best breeding and testing done to make it possible?:?

I'd be dissapointed with a perlino, grullo cremello sp? or god forbid a lethal white as I would keep the fillie.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

You can completely eliminate the chance of a lethal white by testing her beforehand. It's cheap and once you know her frame status, you will be able to select a stud accordingly. You could also test for her agouti status to really narrow down the selection criteria for the studs.


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## Spirit Lifter (Apr 23, 2012)

Chiilaa said:


> Ok. A buckskin is genetically E_, A_, Crcr. E means they are a black based horse, A means agouti is restricting black to the points, and Crcr means they have one copy of the cream gene, so are a single dilute.
> 
> A palomino is ee _ _ Crcr. Two copies of "red" instead of black at the E locus, so red based, no way of knowing her agouti status without testing, as it doesn't express on a red based horse, and one copy of cream, making her a single dilute.
> 
> For the best chance of getting a buckskin foal, you would want to breed to a stallion that was EE AA. Breeding to a Crcr would give you 50% buckskin, 25% bay, 25% perlino. CrCR would give you 50% buckskin, 50% perlino, and crcr would give you 50% buckskin and 50% bay.


So what would the outcome be to a stallion of EE AA on the percentages like you showed for the Crcer, crCR and crcr.

I'll have her tested for the agouti status and lethal white/frame overo. Anything else to test her for since they will already have her DNA for the HYPP test? There is a gray way back 6 or 7 generations ago so I'm worried about that.

I like the odds for the crcr stallion. Either a buckskin or a bay. I'd be a happy camper!


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## Spirit Lifter (Apr 23, 2012)

Here is Spirits' pedigree.


Hard As a Gemstone Quarter Horse

Thanks Chiilaa!


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

All those odds were assuming the stallion was also EE AA. A stallion who is EE AA crcr would be bay.


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## Spirit Lifter (Apr 23, 2012)

Chiilaa said:


> All those odds were assuming the stallion was also EE AA. A stallion who is EE AA crcr would be bay.


So a palomino being a Crcr with an EE AA stallion would mean 50% buckskin, 25% bay and 25% perlino if I follow you correctly?

I'm such a greenie on color genetics. Sorry.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

SpiritLifter said:


> So a palomino being a Crcr with an EE AA stallion would mean 50% buckskin, 25% bay and 25% perlino if I follow you correctly?


That is if the stallion is EE AA Crcr, yes.


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## Spirit Lifter (Apr 23, 2012)

So basically I search for that in a stallion and that will tell me what to breed to if I like those statistics, which I do indeed!

That begs the next question...you know me....

What color(s) horse is typically EE AA Crcr stallion?


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Buckskin.


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## Spirit Lifter (Apr 23, 2012)

Thanks Chiilaa!:hug:

Got my answer! :happydance:


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

*Offspring Color Probability* 

33.34% - ​
*Buckskin *33.34% - ​

*Bay *16.67% - ​

*Palomino *16.67% - ​
*Chestnut *

That's breeding a bay stallion who is either Ee or EE and AA to your Palomino mare


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## AnnaLover (Sep 27, 2009)

^^A stallion that's EE AA (crcr) would eliminate the possibility of an ee foal (red based- palomino and chestnut) :wink:


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## Spirit Lifter (Apr 23, 2012)

When I use the color calculator as Chiilaa said to an EE aa buckskin I would get 50% buckskin, 25% bay or 25% perlino.

I'm going to have Spirit Agouti tested and Silver dilute testing unless you guys tell me it won't make a hill a beans worth of a difference to get a buckskin.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

The silver would mean the difference between a 'silver buckskin or bay' and just buckskin or bay, so it doesn't cost much, might as well find out. 

Agouti is just a color concentrator. So, when the male contributes the black gene, E, it gets concentrated to the points - ears, mane, tail and socks on the legs. If she then contributes her Cr gene, then you would get a buckskin. If she contributed her red gene, e, then you'd get a bay. 

To be sure fire, gonna get a buckskin or bay, you need a stallion that's EE AA, which is homozygous for black and homozygous for agouti, then you're 50/50, if your mare is not a silver carrier and is non-agouti. So, if that's in question I'd test for silver, and find out her agouti status. I'd also look for a nice EE AA stallion (he will be a very dark blackish bay) for your mare and that will guarantee you at least a 1 in 2 chance of buckskin. Or you could save all the testing money and the cost of breeding and just buy what you want:wink:. 

I have a cremello stallion and a bay mare who is EE AA, I'm gonna get buckskin, not a doubt in the world. I tested the mare and bought the stallion so I could get exactly what I wanted. 

So you could go that route too, find a mare & stallion you like and buy the foal in utero.


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## AnnaLover (Sep 27, 2009)

If she's homozygous agouti (AA), then you wouldn't have to worry about the stallion's agouti status. So, yes, agouti is important, but I wouldn't waste your money on testing her for silver. It's _highly_ unlikely that she carries silver.

Please be sure that your number one priority in finding a stallion is a quality, well-built horse that is proven in the discipline you aim to take the foal in. Color should always come last. It's not going to be easy finding a quality stallion with the color you're specifically looking for, so you're better off going out and buying a buckskin filly. 
Even if you do end up with a buckskin (which, no matter the color of the stallion, can't be guaranteed), you still only have a 50% chance of getting a filly. 
I could preach on for hours as to why quality should _always _come before color, but hopefully you already knew that :wink:


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## AnnaLover (Sep 27, 2009)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> The silver would mean the difference between a 'silver buckskin or bay' and just buckskin or bay, so it doesn't cost much, might as well find out.
> 
> Agouti is just a color concentrator. So, when the male contributes the black gene, E, it gets concentrated to the points - ears, mane, tail and socks on the legs. If she then contributes her Cr gene, then you would get a buckskin. If she contributed her red gene, e, then you'd get a bay.
> *I'm a bit confused by this.. her mare will always give her 'red gene' (e). *
> ...


Just needed to clear a few things up :wink: 

SpiritLifter- Would you rather have chances of getting a bay or a perlino along with the chance of buckskin, or both?
Breeding to an EE AA bay would give you buckskin or bay, breeding to an EE AA buckskin would give your buckskin, bay, or perlino, and breeding to an EE AA perlino would give you chances of a buckskin or perlino.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

AnnaLover said:


> Just needed to clear a few things up :wink:
> 
> SpiritLifter- Would you rather have chances of getting a bay or a perlino along with the chance of buckskin, or both?
> Breeding to an EE AA bay would give you buckskin or bay, breeding to an EE AA buckskin would give your buckskin, bay, or perlino, and breeding to an EE AA perlino would give you chances of a buckskin or perlino.


 
LOL, along about now her head is probably spinning off its axis thanks to us 2. I personally prefer the way a cremello looks, but that's personal and since I already knew that my mare was EE AA, I went that route. 










I don't have great pics of him but here's Skippy, my cremello 










Here's an equally not great pic of the bay EE AA mare I'm going to use with him. She was very young and growthy in this pic, about 2, I think. She's 8 now.


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## Bridgertrot (Dec 2, 2011)

SpiritLifter said:


> There is a gray way back 6 or 7 generations ago so I'm worried about that.


The grey gene does not hide. As long as your mare isn't grey and you don't breed to a grey stud, you have a zero chance of getting a grey foal. Dun works the same way.


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## AnnaLover (Sep 27, 2009)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> LOL, along about now her head is probably spinning off its axis thanks to us 2. I personally prefer the way a cremello looks, but that's personal and since I already knew that my mare was EE AA, I went that route.


No kidding! It's a lot of information to take in all at once! 
Nice looking horses 

If you don't want chances of a grulla (though I don't know anyone who doesn't want a grulla!), and Spirit tests homozygous for agouti, breeding to this nice stallion will give you only chances of a bay dun or dunskin. He's homozygous for dun AND black, plus he has one copy of cream! PLUS he's very well bred and a proven performance horse. Can't go wrong there!
Dun It OK, AQHA Dun Reining Working Cow Horse Stallion standing also reining horses for sale, reining stallion stud standing at Dunit Slidin Quarter Horses
Dun It OK | Facebook

What discipline to you plan on taking the foal in?


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## Spirit Lifter (Apr 23, 2012)

Western Pleasure of course trail and beyond that not sure of anything else as I am now 51. 

In an ideal world, I would want a buckskin or bay or a Dun that looked like a buckskin.


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## Spirit Lifter (Apr 23, 2012)

reining horses for sale, reining stallion stud standing at Dunit Slidin Quarter Horses

Annalover........Look at that beauty that your link sent me to. :shock:


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## AnnaLover (Sep 27, 2009)

Even though you're not going the performance route, Dun It OK will give you a nice, athletic, all around foal that should do well with what you want as long as you don't hope to go to worlds for western pleasure or anything like that :wink:
Plus, you're guaranteed a color you want. Sounds like he's the ideal stallion for what you're looking for  What do you think?
Would you pass because of the possibility of a grulla foal? I personally find grullas stunning.. one of my favorite colors for sure 

ETA: We posted at the same time! He has gorgeous foals, doesn't he?!  Not one I don't love so far :wink:


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## Spirit Lifter (Apr 23, 2012)

The biggest problem is distance. I'm on the other side of the country. Some grullo's are beautiful and some are not. Did you see that filly
I sent you the link to? OMG!


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## Spirit Lifter (Apr 23, 2012)

What's the difference between a bay dun and a dunskin? Google images look the same. :?


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## AnnaLover (Sep 27, 2009)

You mean pricey shipping fees? Because it might be impossible to find you a local stallion that does live cover that will also get you the color and quality you want! 
His fee is very reasonable at $600.. couldn't find where it says if he does shipped semen, though I'm quite positive he does... No idea what shipping fees run at.. I've always done live cover to some nice, somewhat local stallions 

Yes- Very gorgeous filly! 

Anyway- I'm off to bed! Will check back on this thread sometime tomorrow


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## AnnaLover (Sep 27, 2009)

SpiritLifter said:


> What's the difference between a bay dun and a dunskin? Google images look the same. :?


Dunskin is buckskin with the dun gene, so looks like what it is- a buckskin with dun factor.
example of a dunskin:
Google Image Result for http://www.sbrformulaone.com/images/Buckwheat11-16-08026.jpg
(^^ another great all around stallion- SBR Formula One)

and another:
Google Image Result for http://crownzquarterhorses.net/SiteImages/Caddy1.jpg

Whereas bay dun looks more like a 'muted' bay with dun factor.

Bay dun:
Google Image Result for http://www.tierneyhorses.com/Images/Joses_Perfect_Badgerreduced.JPG

Google Image Result for http://jamisonranch.com/images/stallions/WilyVaquero.jpg

Google Image Result for http://www.perfecthorseauctions.com/user_images/4353241.jpg


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## Spirit Lifter (Apr 23, 2012)

$600 dollars to a good stallion is almost free. Wonder what the chances of a shipped semen will catch on the first attempt? I know....another whole subject but let's give it a whirl! Besides a live cover I know NOTHING about what to do with a package at my door marked "live semen sample". And that's ANOTHER whole subject in and of itself!!


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## AnnaLover (Sep 27, 2009)

Do you have a good repro vet available?

Okay.. NOW I'm going to bed.. :lol:


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## Spirit Lifter (Apr 23, 2012)

Dunskin, Bay Dunn or Buckskin and I'd be a really happy camper! Can I add a white blaze, stripe or star to that order?:lol:


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## Eolith (Sep 30, 2007)

OK, I promise I'm not trying to be rude or anything... just tossing something out there to think over. If you'd really really like a buckskin or a dun and would be disappointed with anything else, the best option might be to buy what you're looking for rather than to "hope for the best" by breeding your mare to this stud or that stud.

Of course there's other factors to consider. Maybe you really just want a foal out of your mare to keep and treasure. Maybe you want the whole "foal experience". As long as you've taken all of the pros and cons into consideration, there's nothing wrong with that and I respect that choice.

Just sayin' for $125 you could bring home this youngster from the BLM... and maybe be closer to your "dream" baby than if your mare for whatever reason had a bay colt. ;D


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## Spirit Lifter (Apr 23, 2012)

Eolith, that is a stunning Mustang! Nice.

Maybe you really just want a foal out of your mare to keep and treasure. Maybe you want the whole "foal experience".

That's it in a nut shell. Of course, I should have stated it earlier, any healthy foal would be a blessing. Just trying to narrow in on the chance of what I'm looking for on color.


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## AnnaLover (Sep 27, 2009)

Test Spirit for agouti.. if she comes back as homozygous agouti (AA), then, IMO, Dun It OK is by far going to be your best choice. IF she is AA, you can ONLY get a bay dun or dunskin, which is what you want. PLUS, a quality foal that will be well built as long as Spirit has great conformation, which she definitely should if you're even considering breeding her.
Breeding is ALWAYS a crap shoot, no matter what. If color is so important to you and will be the difference of your satisfaction verses disappointment, you will be MUCH better off going out and buying exactly what you want. If you want the whole experience of a foal, buy a weanling of your choice in color and breeding, or rescue a pregnant mare- which isn't guaranteeing you any color by any means, but saving not one, but two lives. 
Babies are cute while they're little, but they are FAR from easy and they grow up fast. With breeding, you run the very real risk of losing not only Spirit, but the foal as well. Breeding is very expensive when everything goes as planned, but can be outrageously so when there are complications. 
On top of the expenses of getting your mare through her 11 months of pregnancy with vaccines and ultrasounds etc., birth, and foal care, and feeding and caring for that foal until it's old enough to be useful, you might as well go out and buy 5 weanlings. 
This year, I had an unexpected foal born after buying a mare that we didn't know was pregnant at the time. After endless sleepless nights, she ended up having her colt in one of the margins of the every 1 1/2 hours I was waking up to check on her. Thank God she was an experienced broodmare and everything happened to go well with the birth, but she had been dripping milk for weeks before foaling, so had lost a majority of her colostrum. Her colt had to have a plasma transfusion, and even now, there's no guarantee he won't catch an illness that would be harmless to a full-grown horse, and die.. He could be stepped on, caught in a fence, slip, fall, and break his neck or a leg. Foals are very delicate and require a lot of needs and precautionary measures.
On top of the plasma transfusion, he is already eating his dam's hay and grazing, starting at less than a week old, so as a result has been very constipated, as he is too young to properly digest hay and grass. We had to take his dam of alfalfa and give the colt vegetable oil twice a day, along with the occasional enema. Thanks to his dangerously protective dam, he has an early fear of humans, despite our constant handling of him as much as possible. Administering oil isn't fun for him.. he puts of quite the fight and it's a 2 person job to get it in him. 
ANYWAY, my point is, breeding and having your very own foal sounds like a fun idea, but can be very disastrous, stressful, and heartbreaking. 
It takes experience and knowledge to successfully raise a foal. You have to know what is and isn't appropriate in a foal's behavior. A few, seemingly harmless mistakes when disciplining (or lack thereof), can result in an unmanageable, dangerous, and overpowering horse with no manners. Naughty but 'cute' foal behavior that seems completely fine at the time, will be very dangerous when that foal matures into a 1,000 pound horse and then tries the same.

Just some things you should really keep in mind before you go through with breeding Spirit. You will be lucky to have a healthy mare and foal after foaling.. then get the foal successfully to adulthood with proper nutrition and discipline.. forget getting lucky with your desired color and gender :wink:


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Ok, I was tired last night and said a couple things wrong. The one sentence, "If your mare throws her e (should have said AND DOESN'T throw her Cr gene) then you'll get a bay". I was tired and didn't catch that. 

Annalover, count me the first one you know who doesn't like grulla, I can't stand that color and would give away a foal that came out that way. .....UGH! Just like I'm not crazy about Perlino but love Cremello, grulla just doesn't do it for me. 

When I refer to Black Bay, I'm talking in Arabian terms I guess. They don't recognize BROWN as a color and the mare I have is bay when she's washed out by sun but when in show coat is VERY black and confuses people.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

SpiritLifter said:


> $600 dollars to a good stallion is almost free. Wonder what the chances of a shipped semen will catch on the first attempt? I know....another whole subject but let's give it a whirl! Besides a live cover I know NOTHING about what to do with a package at my door marked "live semen sample". And that's ANOTHER whole subject in and of itself!!


Spirit, AI is pretty reliable and easy, especially if you have a real potent stallion and they don't dilute too much and if you have a repro vet who knows his stuff. They don't ship to you, usually, but straight to your vet and you would only order on your vet's say so, that she's ready. 

AI with transported semen can cost a fortune if the mare has problems and doesn't catch on the first or 2nd shipment. When I use TS I plan on 2 shipments and re-evaluate if it takes 3 with no success. The stud fee is frequently the LEAST part of the equation, shipping and handling can run around $300 to $750 PER SHIPMENT, depending on the stallion owners charges. Then it depends on your vet's fees too, do they charge per ultrasound or do they charge per cycle, do they charge individually for any hormones used or do they have a breeding package that includes all routine care, and on and on. 

My bay mare that I've been talking about on this thread took me 3 seasons to get her mother bred. I breed leased her mother, didn't own her, the vet was less than stellar and just couldn't seem to get her to settle. After something like 6 shipments ($450 per shipment back in 2004) and thousands in vet fees, I finally told him to take the last shipment, put it in the mare and walk away and come back in 21 days. This mare just would not conceive if you tinkered with her hormones. I figured out my costs to put that filly on the ground at around $17,000. Freakin' ridiculous! 

Now her daughter, my mare, is very much like her mother. I live cover her and she'll take in one try. AI........not so much, gotta work at it to get her when she's just ready to ovulate and do NOTHING with her hormones. Do you know how hard it is to get a vet to NOT use a bunch of hormone stuff to make sure the mare ovulates when they want her too? 

Even if your mare is easy, the vet knows his stuff and you get lucky and catch on the first shipment, it's not a cheap endeavour and today's market is very soft if you want to sell the foal. So, just research it well and make an informed decision no matter what you decide to do.


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## AnnaLover (Sep 27, 2009)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Ok, I was tired last night and said a couple things wrong. The one sentence, "If your mare throws her e (should have said AND DOESN'T throw her Cr gene) then you'll get a bay". I was tired and didn't catch that.
> 
> Annalover, count me the first one you know who doesn't like grulla, I can't stand that color and would give away a foal that came out that way. .....UGH! Just like I'm not crazy about Perlino but love Cremello, grulla just doesn't do it for me.
> 
> When I refer to Black Bay, I'm talking in Arabian terms I guess. They don't recognize BROWN as a color and the mare I have is bay when she's washed out by sun but when in show coat is VERY black and confuses people.


Weird.. I absolutely love grullas and would breed in hopes of getting one any day!

Do you have pictures of said mare with her different coat colors? Sounds to me like she's brown (although seasonal color changes in a bay is not unusual)- which doesn't mean she can't be homozygous for black and agouti. 
However, what you said about an EE AA (crcr) horse being dark blackish bay is incorrect. The zygosity of agouti and black does not affect what the horses color looks like (its phenotype). 
The lightest, brightest bay horse could just as easily be EE AA as a 'dark, blackish bay'(a brown) could be, as long as their genetics allow it.
Technically, a brown horse doesn't have agouti (A).. it has At.. but I've never taken the time to really understand the color brown at all... :?


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## Spirit Lifter (Apr 23, 2012)

I think at this point, I'll test for Agouti, while the lab already having the DNA for HYPP test. Not sure how long it will take for the results but I'll be sure to post them. I hope she comes back AA. I'll let you guys know. Thanks for all the input and now I'll have something to refer to as the times get closer.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

AnnaLover said:


> Do you have pictures of said mare with her different coat colors? Sounds to me like she's brown (although seasonal color changes in a bay is not unusual)- which doesn't mean she can't be homozygous for black and agouti.
> However, what you said about an EE AA (crcr) horse being dark blackish bay is incorrect. The zygosity of agouti and black does not affect what the horses color looks like (its phenotype).
> The lightest, brightest bay horse could just as easily be EE AA as a 'dark, blackish bay'(a brown) could be, as long as their genetics allow it.
> Technically, a brown horse doesn't have agouti (A).. it has At.. but I've never taken the time to really understand the color brown at all... :?


 
I don't have one in her non-faded state but here's a couple of her in pasture condition. She has been VetGen tested, EE AA, so she's definitely not brown.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I don't have one in her non-faded state but here's a couple of her in pasture condition. She has been VetGen tested, EE AA, so she's definitely not brown.


There is only one lab that tests for brown, and they are the only lab that uses a test for the dominant allele. The other labs use a test that returns a count on how many recessive alleles are present, so it gives a a/a a/_ or _/_ result. Unless you have her tested with PetDNA, then you can't say for sure that she isn't brown.


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## Spirit Lifter (Apr 23, 2012)

So much for my google search to attempt to research the meanings of heterozygous, homozygous, alleles, hemizygous, nullizygous, etc. Geeesh!


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

SpiritLifter said:


> So much for my google search to attempt to research the meanings of heterozygous, homozygous, alleles, hemizygous, nullizygous, etc. Geeesh!


Heterozygous - carrying one of a gene, eg a horse that is Ee is heterozygous for black (or red, depends what you are looking at lol)

Homozygous - carrying two of a gene, eg EE is a horse homozygous for black.

Allele - the actual gene responsible. So EE means they have two black alleles. 

Hemizygous - one of the genes are missing for that trait, so a horse that tested as E with no second allele.

Nullizygous - both genes are missing. A mutant, run!


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Chiilaa said:


> There is only one lab that tests for brown, and they are the only lab that uses a test for the dominant allele. The other labs use a test that returns a count on how many recessive alleles are present, so it gives a a/a a/_ or _/_ result. Unless you have her tested with PetDNA, then you can't say for sure that she isn't brown.


 
I tested for colors that are recognized by AHA and they do not recognize brown, so even if she tested via PetDNA, it wouldn't matter. For AHA's purposes she is actually black, though she was registered bay before I tested her. She's a purebred Arabian so there are only 6 colors to choose from and if I tried to go for that 6th color I could get an act of congress before AHA would recognize and put it on her papers. 

Her muzzle is black, not mealy so I'm not going to spend anymore $$$ on testing her colors.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I tested for colors that are recognized by AHA and they do not recognize brown, so even if she tested via PetDNA, it wouldn't matter. For AHA's purposes she is actually black, though she was registered bay before I tested her. She's a purebred Arabian so there are only 6 colors to choose from and if I tried to go for that 6th color I could get an act of congress before AHA would recognize and put it on her papers.
> 
> Her muzzle is black, not mealy so I'm not going to spend anymore $$$ on testing her colors.


None of that means that she isn't brown, but I can see what you mean. It is unfortunate that registries don't keep up with the times and adjust to meet the scientific evidence that is presented.


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## Spirit Lifter (Apr 23, 2012)

Chiilaa said:


> Heterozygous - carrying one of a gene, eg a horse that is Ee is heterozygous for black (or red, depends what you are looking at lol)
> 
> Homozygous - carrying two of a gene, eg EE is a horse homozygous for black.
> 
> ...


Chiilaa, I would expect nothing less from you:lol:. Are you available for a commission on breeding? :lol:


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## ThirteenAcres (Apr 27, 2012)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Ok, I was tired last night and said a couple things wrong. The one sentence, "If your mare throws her e (should have said AND DOESN'T throw her Cr gene) then you'll get a bay". I was tired and didn't catch that.
> 
> Annalover, count me the first one you know who doesn't like grulla, I can't stand that color and would give away a foal that came out that way. .....UGH! Just like I'm not crazy about Perlino but love Cremello, grulla just doesn't do it for me.
> 
> When I refer to Black Bay, I'm talking in Arabian terms I guess. They don't recognize BROWN as a color and the mare I have is bay when she's washed out by sun but when in show coat is VERY black and confuses people.


I will take all your giveaway grullas. XD


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

Umm yes save some for me, I think grullas are absolutely stunning!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

Ps I'm just subbing because this has become an interesting and informational thread about genetics!! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Spirit Lifter (Apr 23, 2012)

I don't care for grulla, perlino, cremello or any horse with pink eyelids. I know.....I'm weird. :?


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## SplashedOvero (May 16, 2012)

Buckskin
Bay
Perlino
Smokey Black
Silver Dapple
Silver Bay
Dun
Black
Grullo
Bay Roan

All these = a chance of Buckskin
I didnt Go through all the Colors on the calculator


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Not sure of her breeding but before you breed for "color" you should have her tested for genetic diseases color is just icing on the cake you need to make sure first and foremost that no genetic diseases will be inflicted on the resulting foal and if having a certain color will disappoint you maybe you should buy the desired color already on the ground to spare said foal of being a dissapointment because of its color and may I add you dont ride the color you ride the horse.


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## Spirit Lifter (Apr 23, 2012)

I agree with all you posted. Doesn't stop me from wanting a buckskin. Just saying. All I'm trying to do is improve my chances for a certain color as my OP stated AFTER all the sensible things that come first are appropriately handled. Point taken.


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

If I'm thinking it through correctly, you have a 100% chance of getting a bay dun or dunskin if you breed to a dun stud who is tested EE AA DD (homozygous for extension, agouti, and dun). 

If your mare tests homozygous for agouti then you could also breed to a EE aa DD stud and get the same results.

Since the cream and dun dilution genes don't stack like other dilution genes (i.e. cream w/ cream, champagne, or pearl) you have no chance of getting a double dilute or pseudo-double dilute (cremello, perlino, etc.)

The exception to this would be if the agouti passed on by either the sire or dam is actually brown and not bay. As mentioned earlier in this thread, only one company tests for brown. That means that a horse tested by another lab to be AA could actually be AAt or AtAt. At is thought to be recessive to A, so a horse that's AAt would look the same as a horse that's AA. In the case of the stud, you'd probably see it visually if he was AtAt (or Ata), but not with your pali mare. A brown dun/dunskin horse wouldn't have the same look as the bay dun/dunskin you're hoping for.


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