# why use a grackle noseband??



## Dazzy

I've been watching show jumpers and the sort and have noticed a lot of grackles and wandered why someone would choose a grackle over a simple drop noseband?? This is purely a curiousity question..... I'm wandering if my boy maybe happier the grackle as i ride and jump with a flash. Or are they more specialized that what I'm giving them credit for?? 

Any insight would be awesome


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## HollyBubbles

Some people use them because the horse crosses his/her jaw, making the rider have no control, the grackle stops them from doing so because of where it sits.

It also (apparently) allows the horses to breath easier as it is not in the way of the nose (however IMHO, and correctly placed noseband shoudl not interferre with breathing)

Some just use it for show.

Me? I use a cavasson noseband with a flash attached to it, only if I need the flash, otherwise its just a cavasson. Because I don't need a drop noseband normally, and I don't like the way the drops look.


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## NeuroticMare

They distribute pressure more equally than a regular caveson with a flash.

To be honest, with most horse's head conformation, for the flash to fit correctly, the caveson is too low, or vise versa. The flash attachment on a caveson is relative new and became a fad, the figure 8 nosebands are more practical and more effective (and fit better) for the purpose of the horse not crossing their jaw.

When I was first training my gelding to go on contact (he was started western) I used a figure 8 for the first 3 months or so, so that he would not learn to cross his jaw, and then I switched over to a regular caveson. I keep a figure 8 should I need it again.

For me too, I really dislike the look of flashes, so would use a figure 8 for that reason should I need it, but right now both horses go in a loosely fitted regular caveson (I like the wide ones with padding from Bobby's bridles). It is a classy look that never goes out of style.


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## cmjs

*Grackles!*

My horse has to wear a standing martingale, he also crosses his jaw! I'm pretty sure you can't, but can you use a Grackle and a standing martingale? :-? 
Thanks!


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## ChipsAhoy

cmjs said:


> My horse has to wear a standing martingale, he also crosses his jaw! I'm pretty sure you can't, but can you use a Grackle and a standing martingale? :-?
> Thanks!


This is a bit off topic, but have you tried a running martingale? Standing martingales tend to restrict the horse more IME, plus a running can work with any noseband. I see a lot of people use standing's with a flash, so if you really feel you need something to stop your horses jaw crossing, that could be a good option.


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## Golden Horse

I got a grackle for Willow cos it suits her.

Because she does gape and try and avoid the bit I would probably gone with a flash, but with her very long nose thought that a grackle would set her off better.

She doesn't need it, so just because is my answer.


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## cmjs

ChipsAhoy said:


> This is a bit off topic, but have you tried a running martingale? Standing martingales tend to restrict the horse more IME, plus a running can work with any noseband. I see a lot of people use standing's with a flash, so if you really feel you need something to stop your horses jaw crossing, that could be a good option.


 yeah, he already wears a flash but manages to still cross it!:L I can't jump him in a running because he holds his head so high!:/
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Golden Horse

Personally I wouldn't jump in a standing, only a running, do you have any video of your guy in action?

You have a couple of options, if you really want to use a standing then use a properly fitted flash, and use the caveson part for the martingale

or

Use your grackle, put a cavesson over the top and use that for your martingale. At that point though you may want to look at the amount of leather you have on your horse and wonder if there is another way to approach the issue:wink:


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## OwnedByAlli

I wouldn't jump in a standing martingale. Safety issues mainly. If the horse loses balance he cant use his head and neck to its full extent to save himself. Why they're banned in many showjump comps :wink:

Grackles are used to stop the horse opening his mouth or crossing their jaw. Lots of show jumpers use them cz the sj horses tend to be more highly strung and get more excited at the prospect of jumping. It also means the horse can't resist the bit so much when doing tight turns at speed to shave off seconds.


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## cmjs

OwnedByAlli said:


> I wouldn't jump in a standing martingale. Safety issues mainly. If the horse loses balance he cant use his head and neck to its full extent to save himself. Why they're banned in many showjump comps :wink:
> 
> Grackles are used to stop the horse opening his mouth or crossing their jaw. Lots of show jumpers use them cz the sj horses tend to be more highly strung and get more excited at the prospect of jumping. It also means the horse can't resist the bit so much when doing tight turns at speed to shave off seconds.


 I never used to like to jump in a standing, but my horse is only 6 and he balances fine! ..yeah I'm just gonna stick with his flash! Thankyou!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dazzy

Ok so it seems its half asethetics and half jaw crossing. My boy opens his mouth and sticks his tongue out when he gets excited and I use the flash to stop him biting his tounge during jumping (which he has done) and to stop him sticking his tongue out at the dressage judge but i'll hack out and school without the flash. 

Interesting comments .... if i can find a cheap second hand one I might see what he thinks of it this season.


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## unclearthur

CMJS - if your horse needs a standing martingale he doesn't 'balance fine', I'm sorry. Unfortunately you can't buckle one to a figure-8 noseband or you'll get too much pressure at the crossover point when the horse hits the martingale's limit. And if he holds his head so high a running doesn't work it's fitted far too long  Try adjusting it so the ring runs up the reins to a point about 8" below the withers.

And can everyone please learn the correct spelling? It's not a bird, it was the name of a racehorse which ran in the Grand National - GRAKLE. 

Thank you for your attention, ladies and gentlemen


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## Golden Horse

unclearthur said:


> And can everyone please learn the correct spelling? It's not a bird, it was the name of a racehorse which ran in the Grand National - GRAKLE.


Annoying isn't it, GRACKLE GRACKLE GRACKLE, seems to be a common mistake because you find it often on boards, in fact I think I have spelt it that weigh my hole life :rofl::rofl:

Sorry, but I have been stopping myself screaming at various spelling mishaps over the last few days, so I do understand how you feel, I will try and remember.

Now if a few people could remember that it's "my horse weighs" not "my horse weighted", or what ever strange spin they put on it.....


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## unclearthur

Golden Horse said:


> Annoying isn't it, GRACKLE GRACKLE GRACKLE, seems to be a common mistake because you find it often on boards, in fact I think I have spelt it that weigh my hole life :rofl::rofl:
> 
> Sorry, but I have been stopping myself screaming at various spelling mishaps over the last few days, so I do understand how you feel, I will try and remember.
> 
> Now if a few people could remember that it's "my horse weighs" not "my horse weighted", or what ever strange spin they put on it.....


Sorry - I'm a pedant when it comes to grammar and spelling. Comes of writing, I guess.


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## Golden Horse

I don't blame you, it is a skill that is fast dying, unfortunately not helped by those of us who were properly taught but have some degree of dyslexia, or other forms of word blindness. 

I know that I used weigh and hole in the wrong context deliberately in the last post, but in this one it took me a very long time to try and work out how to spell dying, is it dyeing, dieing or dying, number 2 gets rejected by the spell checker, great 50% chance of success then:lol: I eventually puzzled it out but it takes a while sometimes.


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## HollyBubbles

Isn't a "Grakle" (I always thought it was "grackle" thats what I've been taught) also called a german noseband or something like that? I dunno :lol:

CMJS, if a running martingale is not stopping your 6yo from putting his head up so high, then it's too long. Believe me, I got my boy when he was 6, straight off the track, rode like a giraffe, and the running martingale stopped him, but you also may want to think about reworking your flatwork, Mitch rides beautifully now, I taught him to use long and low, then to go into an outline, and now at 8yo he is a very good looker in the ring. (NOT criting you or trying to be mean, just sharing my opinion and experience!)


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## Saskia

I used the Grackle with my old TB and it really made all the difference. He'd cross his jaw/open his mouth and really lean on the bit. 

Looking at the Grackle, if they try to open their jaw it puts pressure on both their lower jaw and more upper face, so I think it really encourages them to keep it closed. I also have never been quite happy with the fit of flash nosebands. They seem to be too tight in both areas, and can slide down too far. 

95% of running martingales I have seen have been adjusted wrong so that they have virtually no effect. I like the fact that, because they're attached to the reins, the rider can control when they're in effect more. In a emergency of sorts, like when a horse stumbles, loosening the contact will stop the action of the martingale. You don't have this with a standing martingale.


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## Mckellar

LOL Because it looks nice? Too many people use them because the see top level jumpers use them. I was looking at a horse to buy and I said " ohdoes he cross his jaw?" the answer was " no I just use it because it looks nice" 

I use one because my mare is used to it. Bottom line, she doesn't need it but has always worn one so when I ride her in a normal noseband she tosses and is strong but my theory is she's always had a figure 8 so just keep rising her in it


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## blue eyed pony

I want one for my jumping bridle 

My horse goes ok in a plain cavesson noseband and snaffle bit but can be a little strong, and he can't cope with a stronger bit due to a bad rider in his past, so I want to try him in a grackle to see if that will help him go a little bit better. I have put a flash on him but it pulled the cavesson down and just would not sit right on his face, and did very little to nothing, so I stopped using it. The problem is finding a grackle that's the right shade of brown for my jumping bridle!! I am obsessive about everything matching just right.

And yep, I am spelling it "wrong", but my spelling-grammar-Nazi mind will NOT let me spell it "grakle"... it just feels wrong to me!


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## cmjs

HollyBubbles said:


> Isn't a "Grakle" (I always thought it was "grackle" thats what I've been taught) also called a german noseband or something like that? I dunno :lol:
> 
> CMJS, if a running martingale is not stopping your 6yo from putting his head up so high, then it's too long. Believe me, I got my boy when he was 6, straight off the track, rode like a giraffe, and the running martingale stopped him, but you also may want to think about reworking your flatwork, Mitch rides beautifully now, I taught him to use long and low, then to go into an outline, and now at 8yo he is a very good looker in the ring. (NOT criting you or trying to be mean, just sharing my opinion and experience!)


 I used to put him in a running (fitted correctly) totally re-schooled him, and he does all his hacking and schooling in just a bridle and saddle now! He is just a very fiery cob! My trainer put him in the standing because when I first went to her he wouldn't even walk without galloping off! I know your not critting  I can jump up to about 2ft without the standing, but any higher than that it gets dangerous so he has to wear it!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cmjs

unclearthur said:


> CMJS - if your horse needs a standing martingale he doesn't 'balance fine', I'm sorry. Unfortunately you can't buckle one to a figure-8 noseband or you'll get too much pressure at the crossover point when the horse hits the martingale's limit. And if he holds his head so high a running doesn't work it's fitted far too long  Try adjusting it so the ring runs up the reins to a point about 8" below the withers.
> 
> And can everyone please learn the correct spelling? It's not a bird, it was the name of a racehorse which ran in the Grand National - GRAKLE.
> 
> Thank you for your attention, ladies and gentlemen


Thankyou very much, but he does balance fine, I wouldn't put my boy at risk! It's either a standing martingale or a stronger bit, he can't have a stronger bit because he is so sensitive! At the moment he is in a hanging cheek snaffle and a standing martingale! I didn't post on here for you to judge if my horse can balance, I know he can perfectly well! I was simply asking a question!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Golden Horse

cmjs said:


> I can jump up to about 2ft without the standing, but any higher than that it gets dangerous so he has to wear it!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Trouble is the higher you get the more dangerous it is to jump with it. I know that you aren't asking for criticism, but we are worried for you, jumping in a standing martingale is just a bad and dangerous idea. From your description my mind is painting a picture of a horse who needs to go back to basics, if he is getting really strong with jumping so a running doesn't help, then please just consider backing him off a few steps and fixing the issues with training rather than tack.


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## cmjs

Golden Horse said:


> Trouble is the higher you get the more dangerous it is to jump with it. I know that you aren't asking for criticism, but we are worried for you, jumping in a standing martingale is just a bad and dangerous idea. From your description my mind is painting a picture of a horse who needs to go back to basics, if he is getting really strong with jumping so a running doesn't help, then please just consider backing him off a few steps and fixing the issues with training rather than tack.


 if you read my post before, I said we have totally re-schooled him, he's perfect now just a bit 'excitable'! But my trainer specialises in show jumping and if she didn't think it was safe she would not put him in it! He has been in it for a while now, and we jump about 1.10m, I know that's not big to some people but as this chap nearly died when he was four months old I think it's a big deal for me! If he didn't have the standing on he would smash his legs up or smash me up! I do get told at shows that I shouldn't jump in it, but tbh I know that my boy is fine, he just gets excited!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gypsygirl

'If he didn't have the standing on he would smash his legs up or smash me up! '

cmjs, i am seriously concerned about you and i think you need a different trainer....


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## Golden Horse

I did read your post before, and that is what was confusing me, you have totally re schooled him, which is fantastic, shows that you can teach and he can learn, so the same thing can go into your jumping surely.

Obviously it is your horse and you love him dearly, but maybe you should start questioning why so many people say it's a bad idea, and only your trainer says it's a good idea to be jumping in a standing, maybe, just maybe she is wrong.


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## cmjs

gypsygirl said:


> 'If he didn't have the standing on he would smash his legs up or smash me up! '
> 
> cmjs, i am seriously concerned about you and i think you need a different trainer....


 No. If he didn't have it on he would go so fast into the jump he would go through it! You can't say 'I think you need a different trainer..' when you don't even know who she is! Tbh I don't care anymore, I know what's right for my boy and I would NEVER put him in danger!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cmjs

Golden Horse said:


> I did read your post before, and that is what was confusing me, you have totally re schooled him, which is fantastic, shows that you can teach and he can learn, so the same thing can go into your jumping surely.
> 
> Obviously it is your horse and you love him dearly, but maybe you should start questioning why so many people say it's a bad idea, and only your trainer says it's a good idea to be jumping in a standing, maybe, just maybe she is wrong.


Yes, we started jumping from poles again and he has got so much better. I am not the only person that jumps in a standing martingale! If you watch this video you will see he's not struggling! http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=W_qdVir5AhU
(it's not the best footage because I was really nervous because it was his first show, therefore his canter isn't flowing nicely! This was in June!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gypsygirl

firstly, the standing shouldnt dictate his speed, it should just save your nose if he throws his head up high.

secondly, it doesnt matter who your trainer is. if you NEED a standing to jump him over 2ft and shes letting you jump 1.10m, that is dangerous. 

its very worrisome that he will smash through jumps with out a standing. that is not normal, that is very dangerous. you really should think about going back to basics.


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## Golden Horse

*Martingale - EquestrianLife Wiki*

*Safety and misuse*

The standing martingale is considered to be more restrictive than the running martingale because it cannot be loosened in an emergency and is illegal in most flat classes. Therefore, at horse shows, the standing martingale is primarily used for jumping over relatively low fences where the horse is less likely to need to raise his head for balance. A horse that trips in a standing martingale can fall more easily because its range of motion is restricted. 
Due to the risk of injury to the cartilage of the nose, the martingale strap should never be attached to a drop noseband. Because of the danger of both nose and jaw injuries, it also should also not be attached to a figure-eight noseband. A standing martingale can be attached to the cavesson (the upper, heavier strap) of a flash noseband, but not to the lower, "flash" strap. 
A standing martingale may cause great pain to a horse if misused in combination with certain other equipment. If used in conjunction with a gag bit, a standing martingale can trap the head of the horse, simultaneously asking the horse to raise and lower its head and providing no source of relief in either direction. This combination is sometimes seen in polo, in some rodeo events, and occasionally in the lower levels of jumping. 
Overuse or misuse of a standing martingale or tiedown, particularly as a means to prevent a horse from tossing its head, can lead to the overdevelopment of the muscles on the underside of the neck, creating an undesirable "upside down" neck that makes it more difficult for the horse to relax and flex properly. It may also lead to a horse tensing its back muscles and moving "flat," especially over fences, all of which put undue pressure on the horse's spine, reduce the shock-absorbing capacity of the leg anatomy, and can over time lead to lameness. There is also a risk of accidents: If a horse is sufficiently "trapped" by a combination of a too-short martingale and too-harsh bit, the horse may rear or fall down in an attempt to free itself from the source of pain.


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## cmjs

gypsygirl said:


> firstly, the standing shouldnt dictate his speed, it should just save your nose if he throws his head up high.
> 
> secondly, it doesnt matter who your trainer is. if you NEED a standing to jump him over 2ft and shes letting you jump 1.10m, that is dangerous.
> 
> its very worrisome that he will smash through jumps with out a standing. that is not normal, that is very dangerous. you really should think about going back to basics.


Yes it dictates his speed because he can't throw his head up and go! Omg, when you have watched me and my horse jump then you can tell me what me and my trainer are doing wrong! If you have read my past two or three comments you would now that I have gone back to basics! And 'that is not normal' well thankyou very much but my horse has been broken in for two years and has only been jumping for one! I broke him in on my own so I would know if it's 'normal'
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cmjs

cmjs said:


> Yes it dictates his speed because he can't throw his head up and go! Omg, when you have watched me and my horse jump then you can tell me what me and my trainer are doing wrong! If you have read my past two or three comments you would now that I have gone back to basics! And 'that is not normal' well thankyou very much but my horse has been broken in for two years and has only been jumping for one! I broke him in on my own so I would know if it's 'normal'
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


+ it wasn't all the time he would smash through them, I didn't want to take the chances of him ruining his legs!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gypsygirl

sorry i cant watch your video right now [at school] i will watch it when i get home.


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## cmjs

gypsygirl said:


> sorry i cant watch your video right now [at school] i will watch it when i get home.


Okay, I will try get some more of him in our lesson on Friday  Oh and the video is 2'9" - jut thought I'd mention so I don't get a load of crit about 'exaggerating'!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NeuroticMare

I watched your video. What a spitfire!

I actually think you would have more control without the standing, he is bracing on it and bracing against you. What would he do with a bit with a curb chain, like a pelham? They are usually good for horses who pull up and out like that (there is some really good advice in Jimmy Woffords event books about these), and ride with either two reins or a bit converter. 

I would also shorten your stirrups a few holes, your horse pulls forward and then you stand in the stirrups and pull back, he outweighs you by a lot, he is going to win in a pulling match  If you shorten your stirrups you can bridge your reins and stay in a half seat and allow your seat to move back towards the cantle so that he is pulling on himself, and you are staying balanced. It will be much easier on your back too.

My mare also likes to pull up and out, and is sensitive too. I have found the best solution for her was to go into a sidepull (no bit), no martingales, and keep a straight line from my elbow to the bit (errr, the rings on the sidepull). I absolutely cannot let my tailbone even touch the saddle when jumping because she takes it as a driving cue. We look stupid, sometimes, me in a half seat with my hands way up to follow her mouth. I didn't just slap it on her though, we've been doing lots and lots of dressage (with a bit) and work with the sidepull and ground poles to slow her down and relax her. She is now to the point where my trainer's 17yo daughter (who hasn't ever jumped before) can ride her, she has never been safe for beginner riders (although Korie isn't a beginner, just beginning jumping).

This is from yesterday, both of us riding. She is still more apt to fall on the forehand with the sidepull which is why her lead changes are sloppy (I try to bring her back to do a simple change until it's more crisp), but we keep the fences low (2'3" and under) in the meanwhile.


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## gypsygirl

hey cmjs, sorry i forgot to go back and look the other day !

i watched the video and he is bracing on that standing like crazy !i would take it of and get him light in the bridle with out it. have you noticed him getting muscled up under his neck ? focus on getting him to ride around calm and relaxed [you will need to relax as much as you possibly can too] over lower fences, before upping the height. 

also, it doesnt even look like you need the martingale for safety reasons, his head doesnt look like it flies anywhere near your nose.


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## cmjs

NeuroticMare said:


> I watched your video. What a spitfire!
> 
> I actually think you would have more control without the standing, he is bracing on it and bracing against you. What would he do with a bit with a curb chain, like a pelham? They are usually good for horses who pull up and out like that (there is some really good advice in Jimmy Woffords event books about these), and ride with either two reins or a bit converter.
> 
> I would also shorten your stirrups a few holes, your horse pulls forward and then you stand in the stirrups and pull back, he outweighs you by a lot, he is going to win in a pulling match  If you shorten your stirrups you can bridge your reins and stay in a half seat and allow your seat to move back towards the cantle so that he is pulling on himself, and you are staying balanced. It will be much easier on your back too.
> 
> My mare also likes to pull up and out, and is sensitive too. I have found the best solution for her was to go into a sidepull (no bit), no martingales, and keep a straight line from my elbow to the bit (errr, the rings on the sidepull). I absolutely cannot let my tailbone even touch the saddle when jumping because she takes it as a driving cue. We look stupid, sometimes, me in a half seat with my hands way up to follow her mouth. I didn't just slap it on her though, we've been doing lots and lots of dressage (with a bit) and work with the sidepull and ground poles to slow her down and relax her. She is now to the point where my trainer's 17yo daughter (who hasn't ever jumped before) can ride her, she has never been safe for beginner riders (although Korie isn't a beginner, just beginning jumping).
> 
> This is from yesterday, both of us riding. She is still more apt to fall on the forehand with the sidepull which is why her lead changes are sloppy (I try to bring her back to do a simple change until it's more crisp), but we keep the fences low (2'3" and under) in the meanwhile.


I have tried Pelhams, kimblewicks and everything, even tried him bit less, the only reason he is pulling in the video is its his first show and he was very excitable! In my other comments I have said that I hack out and school without the martingale! He only uses it for jumping and I'm not gonna stop using it! He's sooo sensitive I put a curb chain on him and it just shreds up his chin even with a curb guard ( and yes, before you say, the curb chain was fitted perfectly, I had four instructors check it)!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cmjs

gypsygirl said:


> hey cmjs, sorry i forgot to go back and look the other day !
> 
> i watched the video and he is bracing on that standing like crazy !i would take it of and get him light in the bridle with out it. have you noticed him getting muscled up under his neck ? focus on getting him to ride around calm and relaxed [you will need to relax as much as you possibly can too] over lower fences, before upping the height.
> 
> also, it doesnt even look like you need the martingale for safety reasons, his head doesnt look like it flies anywhere near your nose.


He hacks out and schools without the martingale, he has a very good muscley neck, in the right place! He is very erratic, therefore he will always be very excitable when jumping! I have said that we completely started again with like 1ft jumps!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gypsygirl

is he erratic on the flat too ?


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## HowClever

Yuck yuck yuck. You can't say you would never do anything to endanger your horse and in the same breath say you are jumping over a metre with a standing martingale. You are endangering him every single time you do that.

Get a running, adjust it properly and go for your life, but ditch the standing before someone gets hurt.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Golden Horse

NeuroticMare said:


> I watched your video. What a spitfire!
> 
> I actually think you would have more control without the standing, he is bracing on it and bracing against you. What would he do with a bit with a curb chain, like a pelham? They are usually good for horses who pull up and out like that (there is some really good advice in Jimmy Woffords event books about these), and ride with either two reins or a bit converter.
> 
> I would also shorten your stirrups a few holes, your horse pulls forward and then you stand in the stirrups and pull back, he outweighs you by a lot, he is going to win in a pulling match  If you shorten your stirrups you can bridge your reins and stay in a half seat and allow your seat to move back towards the cantle so that he is pulling on himself, and you are staying balanced. It will be much easier on your back too.
> 
> My mare also likes to pull up and out, and is sensitive too. I have found the best solution for her was to go into a sidepull (no bit), no martingales, and keep a straight line from my elbow to the bit (errr, the rings on the sidepull). I absolutely cannot let my tailbone even touch the saddle when jumping because she takes it as a driving cue. We look stupid, sometimes, me in a half seat with my hands way up to follow her mouth. I didn't just slap it on her though, we've been doing lots and lots of dressage (with a bit) and work with the sidepull and ground poles to slow her down and relax her. She is now to the point where my trainer's 17yo daughter (who hasn't ever jumped before) can ride her, she has never been safe for beginner riders (although Korie isn't a beginner, just beginning jumping).
> 
> http://youtu.be/xy7Gd7yA7Oo


This is AWESOME advice, but if you don't want to hear it then you obviously will dismiss it all.

I had a little Haffy here who got stronger and stronger, so I kept bitting her up, and it was a sidepull that eventually stopped the spiral, she went great in it.

The advice about the Pelham, bridging reins etc gets :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: from me.

BUT, it's your horse and as I say you will hear what you want to hear, so best of luck, I really hope that he doesn't injure himself or you by jumping bigger fences in his standing.


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## cmjs

gypsygirl said:


> is he erratic on the flat too ?


No he's very good, spooks a tiny bit out hacking, but only scary things like bin bags!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cmjs

HowClever said:


> Yuck yuck yuck. You can't say you would never do anything to endanger your horse and in the same breath say you are jumping over a metre with a standing martingale. You are endangering him every single time you do that.
> 
> Get a running, adjust it properly and go for your life, but ditch the standing before someone gets hurt.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No. He would be more at risk if he didn't have the standing on, some people may not agree with them but it has worked wonders with my boy. You don't seem to understand, if you read my posts you would realise e is much better in it!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gypsygirl

sorry cmjs, but i think you are the only one who thinks he is better off in the standing...


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## HowClever

You are so very wrong. 

Do you realise what one of the most important functions of a horse's head and neck are? Besides food intake of course. BALANCE! Not just general balance under saddle. More importantly, balance correction. If you've ever seen a horse trip or take a mis-step you would notice that one of the first things they will do to correct it is adjust the position of their head and neck. Whether it be bringing it up or down, to either side or stretching it way out. 

You have taken away your horse's ability to do that while partaking in a spot that most requires it. What do you think is going to happen when he, inevitably, one day trips or stumbles as you approach a fence, goes to correct himself and can't?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cmjs

gypsygirl said:


> sorry cmjs, but i think you are the only one who thinks he is better off in the standing...


On here maybe
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cmjs

HowClever said:


> You are so very wrong.
> 
> Do you realise what one of the most important functions of a horse's head and neck are? Besides food intake of course. BALANCE! Not just general balance under saddle. More importantly, balance correction. If you've ever seen a horse trip or take a mis-step you would notice that one of the first things they will do to correct it is adjust the position of their head and neck. Whether it be bringing it up or down, to either side or stretching it way out.
> 
> You have taken away your horse's ability to do that while partaking in a spot that most requires it. What do you think is going to happen when he, inevitably, one day trips or stumbles as you approach a fence, goes to correct himself and can't?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Omg
I never asked for crit, I just simply asked a question! None of you know my horse so...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gypsygirl

as i said before, i think its time for a new trainer, but thats just my personal opinion. i just hope you dont get hurt and your horse doesnt get hurt. he seems like he could be a very good jumper.


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## cmjs

gypsygirl said:


> as i said before, i think its time for a new trainer, but thats just my personal opinion. i just hope you dont get hurt and your horse doesnt get hurt. he seems like he could be a very good jumper.


As I said before all is asked was 'can you use a grackle and a standing martingale, just wondering!' ffs!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gypsygirl

you also asked some of us to look at a video, which means you wanted critique/our opinion.


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## Golden Horse

cmjs said:


> Omg
> I never asked for crit, I just simply asked a question! None of you know my horse so...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You asked a question and now you are getting lots of answers, the post you quoted was simply pointing out the physics of the thing, actually not particular to your horse.

I would actually like to see you answer the question that HC asked there



> You have taken away your horse's ability to do that while partaking in a spot that most requires it. What do you think is going to happen when he, inevitably, one day trips or stumbles as you approach a fence, goes to correct himself and can't?


What do you think will happen?


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## jumanji321

I think this has something to do with the area she rides in. I'm guessing from the jump standards and fillers that she lives near the UK. Many trainers and riders in that area skip steps to jump higher and higher as that is what the goal is. I can't say this for cmjs, but it could be a possibility.


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## cmjs

jumanji321 said:


> I think this has something to do with the area she rides in. I'm guessing from the jump standards and fillers that she lives near the UK. Many trainers and riders in that area skip steps to jump higher and higher as that is what the goal is. I can't say this for cmjs, but it could be a possibility.


No I'm not bothered about jumping high! yeah I am in Devon England 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kindraeventing

How do I tell my story without making it sound like it's acceptable to jump anything substantial in a standing...Let me make myself very clear. *Continuing down this path is going to get someone hurt.* Maybe not soon. Maybe not much. But If you want to continue to jump higher and higher you need to find some other equipment. I used to ride a horse that seems a lot like yours. She was never going to go around with her head down, and she could jump the moon. I never tried to force her head for safety or for aesthetic reasons. We got along just fine, never "banged up her legs" or anything like that. It sounds like you two should focus on having control of your pace rather than forcing a fixed headset. 

I don't know if you got an answer to your original question, so I'll make sure. No. You don't want to use a figure 8 with a standing martingale. That condenses all of the pressure on the cross-over point on the noseband and can give your horse jaw problems. The flash was actually invented so that you could have the action of a figure 8 and still use a standing. (Or that's what I've heard)

Now here's my story. Talking to an older H/J judge we somehow got onto the topic of martingales. She brought up the topic of horses that used to be more common in upper level jumping competitions that were called Stargazers. They were horses that went around like yours and always went around in a standing. Now mind you this was ages ago. When standings were banned for those levels of competition those kinds of horses disappeared. 

Good lord. I've penned a novel. I've got to learn that no one cares about my random factoids.


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## cmjs

kindraeventing said:


> How do I tell my story without making it sound like it's acceptable to jump anything substantial in a standing...Let me make myself very clear. *Continuing down this path is going to get someone hurt.* Maybe not soon. Maybe not much. But If you want to continue to jump higher and higher you need to find some other equipment. I used to ride a horse that seems a lot like yours. She was never going to go around with her head down, and she could jump the moon. I never tried to force her head for safety or for aesthetic reasons. We got along just fine, never "banged up her legs" or anything like that. It sounds like you two should focus on having control of your pace rather than forcing a fixed headset.
> 
> I don't know if you got an answer to your original question, so I'll make sure. No. You don't want to use a figure 8 with a standing martingale. That condenses all of the pressure on the cross-over point on the noseband and can give your horse jaw problems. The flash was actually invented so that you could have the action of a figure 8 and still use a standing. (Or that's what I've heard)
> 
> Now here's my story. Talking to an older H/J judge we somehow got onto the topic of martingales. She brought up the topic of horses that used to be more common in upper level jumping competitions that were called Stargazers. They were horses that went around like yours and always went around in a standing. Now mind you this was ages ago. When standings were banned for those levels of competition those kinds of horses disappeared.
> 
> Good lord. I've penned a novel. I've got to learn that no one cares about my random factoids.


It's not 'forcing his head down' he can still stretch to get over the jumps. Well the horse you rode couldn't of been as bad, because my horse WOULD smash through the jump if he was going too fast! He's getting better every time I jump him, who knows; he could be out of the standing altogether by this time next year! I would never dream of doing xc with it on! 

And yes, thankyou I did get the answer, I was simply just wondering!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gypsygirl

if you cant jump at a certain height with out tying your horses head down [because YES that is what you are doing] you shouldnt be jumping at that height.


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## Golden Horse

Mmmmm, I'm still wondering why you would want to be jumping a horse that will smash the jumps down unless his head is tied down:shock:

Very strange


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## cmjs

gypsygirl said:


> if you cant jump at a certain height with out tying your horses head down [because YES that is what you are doing] you shouldnt be jumping at that height.


No I am NOT tying my horses head down. And he is very capable just very erratic, tbh I'm just gonna stop answering now because I asked a simple question not expecting everyone to start saying I'm wrong and I'm 'hurting' my horse - which I would NEVER do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cmjs

Golden Horse said:


> Mmmmm, I'm still wondering why you would want to be jumping a horse that will smash the jumps down unless his head is tied down:shock:
> 
> Very strange


OMG I AM NOT TYING HIS HEAD DOWN, HE CAN STILL STRETCH! AND I WOULDN'T SWAP MY HORSE FOR THE WORLD. So 'thanks' for you input it really wasn't needed!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gypsygirl

he is bracing against the martingale when he is cantering around between jumps, that means he wishes to put his head higher and cannot. if hes 'fine' and safe, why cant you just take the martingale off ?

i really dont get how you think a martingale stops him from smashing through jumps, it in no way makes sense to me. i think he probably needs to be totally reschooled. 

i know you keep saying you are going back to basics, which is great, but you have to go back to basics AND lose the martingale.


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## Golden Horse

cmjs said:


> OMG I AM NOT TYING HIS HEAD DOWN, HE CAN STILL STRETCH! AND I WOULDN'T SWAP MY HORSE FOR THE WORLD. So 'thanks' for you input it really wasn't needed!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks for shouting, but it still doesn't make the situation any different...you have a strap of leather that goes from the girth to the noseband, the leather is a certain length, at doesn't stretch, you have it to stop him throwing his head way up, so by definition you ARE tying it down.

No one suggests that you should swap your horse for anything, people are saying what they are because we don't want you or your horse to get hurt.


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## cmjs

gypsygirl said:


> he is bracing against the martingale when he is cantering around between jumps, that means he wishes to put his head higher and cannot. if hes 'fine' and safe, why cant you just take the martingale off ?
> 
> i really dont get how you think a martingale stops him from smashing through jumps, it in no way makes sense to me. i think he probably needs to be totally reschooled.
> 
> i know you keep saying you are going back to basics, which is great, but you have to go back to basics AND lose the martingale.


Don't judge, you've never met my horse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cmjs

Golden Horse said:


> Thanks for shouting, but it still doesn't make the situation any different...you have a strap of leather that goes from the girth to the noseband, the leather is a certain length, at doesn't stretch, you have it to stop him throwing his head way up, so by definition you ARE tying it down.
> 
> No one suggests that you should swap your horse for anything, people are saying what they are because we don't want you or your horse to get hurt.


Yes, I get that, but you DON'T know my horse and never will.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Golden Horse

LOL, why do I need to know him? I've seen the video, he is a perfectly beautiful horse and I can understand why you love him, and I LOVE his tail, must be one heck of a job getting that clean for a show.

I can also see that he is building up the muscle under his neck by bracing, I can see that he is strong and ongoing.

What you still fail to see is that we are trying to help not be nasty, and that people CAN have educated opinions without actually being there in person.

Just sometimes in life you have to consider that if everyone else is saying one thing, and that you believe another, then you may, possibly be, err wrong


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## cmjs

Golden Horse said:


> LOL, why do I need to know him? I've seen the video, he is a perfectly beautiful horse and I can understand why you love him, and I LOVE his tail, must be one heck of a job getting that clean for a show.
> 
> I can also see that he is building up the muscle under his neck by bracing, I can see that he is strong and ongoing.
> 
> What you still fail to see is that we are trying to help not be nasty, and that people CAN have educated opinions without actually being there in person.
> 
> Just sometimes in life you have to consider that if everyone else is saying one thing, and that you believe another, then you may, possibly be, err wrong


Only people on here say its wrong!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Golden Horse

That's because we tend to tell it like it is, even I lose the last of my British reserve.

Look, I'm sure that you have a great trainer, and I get that she put it on him, but sometimes trainers take short cuts to get results, this is a true fact.

Tell me what you are doing to work to towards not jumping in the standing? Because if you are not actively working on that then you are relying on what should have been a short term fix.

It is verey easy to get blind to what is happening with your own horse, and all of us have had DOH moments when we look at things from an outsiders point of view and find improvements we can make to our equipment or our riding skills.


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## cmjs

Golden Horse said:


> That's because we tend to tell it like it is, even I lose the last of my British reserve.
> 
> Look, I'm sure that you have a great trainer, and I get that she put it on him, but sometimes trainers take short cuts to get results, this is a true fact.
> 
> Tell me what you are doing to work to towards not jumping in the standing? Because if you are not actively working on that then you are relying on what should have been a short term fix.
> 
> It is verey easy to get blind to what is happening with your own horse, and all of us have had DOH moments when we look at things from an outsiders point of view and find improvements we can make to our equipment or our riding skills.


I jump small jumps without it, and gradually building them up!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ray MacDonald

Alright alright.... No need to be snarky... You asked for opinions and people gave them to you. There are a lot of people on here that are very experienced and have been there and done that. Take what people told you and re-evaluate your horse. Watch your video like you have never met this horse before than judge it.


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## cmjs

Ray MacDonald said:


> Alright alright.... No need to be snarky... You asked for opinions and people gave them to you. There are a lot of people on here that are very experienced and have been there and done that. Take what people told you and re-evaluate your horse. Watch your video like you have never met this horse before than judge it.


No, I asked if you could use a grakle with a standing, not if my horse can jump with one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## blue eyed pony

I haven't watched the video. My computer doesn't like them, and I would like to base my opinion on the facts that you have presented to me, rather than my own emotional reaction to a video displaying methods and tools that I may or may not agree with.

HOWEVER.

I agree with Ray. I see a very defensive young person who is possibly feeling like they are being attacked for their choice?

Please understand nobody is attacking you or meaning to hurt your feelings. We are all concerned for your safety, and your horse's. Please take a moment to consider all the factors and what could go wrong when (yes when, not if) your horse trips a few strides out from a fence, wearing a standing so he can't move his head to help him get his balance back. I daresay the results of such an event could be rather more disastrous than the results of your horse crashing through a jump.

Now - what's wrong with continuing to jump small jumps, and not use a standing? I jump up to 3'6" on my horse (1m05) and when HE was bolting at fences, I took him back to 18" (45cm) and smaller. I did whack a bigger bit in his mouth when I found that he still was not respecting the snaffle he was in, but I always gave him the option to respond to a soft aid before I got firm with it, and he learned to always respond quickly. He is now back in a snaffle, even at shows when he's at his strongest. And we went straight back to jumping decent heights when he started respecting me again. None of that was done using a martingale of any kind.

I do think that, used correctly and in the right circumstances, martingales are magical things. I do not think that jumping is the right circumstance for a standing martingale. To each their own, but I wouldn't, and I can't suggest or condone it because of the risks involved.

Just my opinion, and you don't have to listen to it, but I hope for your sake that you do sit down and consider the risks of the choice of gear you have made.

Edit; and it would be insanely stupid to use a grackle and a standing together. Your horse could (would) end up with a broken nose and possibly jaw if he tripped. I have heard of far too many horses being euthed because their owners have used that combination of gear, and would strongly recommend against it. Grackle/running is fine because the rider can directly control the tension on the martingale with a running, AND it's not attached to the noseband, but rather the reins and therefore the bit.


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## Allison Finch

I can't find the video, so can't offer any advice.

As to your question, no, you should never use a standing martingale with a figure eight (grackle/USA....grakle/UK....or Mexican) noseband.

The standing should only really be used in flat hunters and hunter over fences (where the jumps are prescribed and carefully paced out). I personally dislike the way standings are being used in the hunter ring today. It is RARELY correctly adjusted and used as much as a fashion accessory as a useful tool. Tight standings increase problems in many horses who learn to lean into them and use them for incorrect balance.

Oh, well.. people will use what their trainer, however misinformed they MAY be, says.


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## Golden Horse

Allison Finch said:


> I can't find the video, so can't offer any advice.
> 
> .


Here you go Allison


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