# Confused about english and western riding, mainly the reins?



## Kiviknon (Jul 26, 2010)

Western bits are normally harsher than English. Imagine a cowboy having to work with both hands and he only has a split second to stop his horse. That's what I've come to understand.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Western bits are not necessarily 'harsher' than english bits. Broke western horses neck rein and ride in curb bit. A curb bit works off of leverage so for every pound of pressure you put on the reins, three (generally) is applied to the horses mouth. The clues are more subtle and the reins are generally kept loose. 

Snaffles and english riders ride off of direct contact. So there is a 1:1 pressure ratio. An english rider should still rely on their seat, balance, and legs however they will have a shorter reign with a soft 'contact' on the mouth. 

No rider should be balancing on or relying on the rein.


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

As already touched upon - there are two different goals behind English versus Western. Yes - the goal in both is to communicate with the horse, but for different reasons. 

In western riding the goal originally was to ride one handed on a horse that responded softly to the slightest shift of the reins and seat aids so that the rider could use the other to do things like rope a cow if needed and not have to worry about their horse. 

In the world of english riding - especially in higher level of dressage - the rider is asking for more intricate moves that require more finesse. The reins are supporting cues to what the seat asks and there is constant communication going from rider to horse through the reins - but its always a refinement of the what the seat is asking. 

Another way to look at it is Western riding is like using a walkie talkie - you can communicate and make your directions clear but the connection isn't always on, while English is more like the telephone - you have a constant connection until you hang up. Both work well for their means but wouldn't necessarily work well in all situations.


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## Stan (Aug 25, 2011)

Spastic_Dove said:


> Western bits are not necessarily 'harsher' than english bits. Broke western horses neck rein and ride in curb bit. A curb bit works off of leverage so for every pound of pressure you put on the reins, three (generally) is applied to the horses mouth. The clues are more subtle and the reins are generally kept loose.
> 
> Snaffles and english riders ride off of direct contact. So there is a 1:1 pressure ratio. An english rider should still rely on their seat, balance, and legs however they will have a shorter reign with a soft 'contact' on the mouth.
> 
> No rider should be balancing on or relying on the rein.


Spastic Dove I use a Myler combination bit with the reins attached to the main large ring which offers almost no extra leaverage. I to am one of the riders that have some issues when riding, for instance I am 5'11" in socks, and can not use my legs to que the horse as my foot does not touch the horse forward of the girth strap hense I rely on the reins a lot. The horse is round in the barrel, and I can not grow longer legs or feet :shock: (I jest) any others having or a simmilar problem any insight of what to try always welcome


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

How does a combo bit help replace your leg for cues?


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Us western riders like our horses long and low, content to travel on a loose rein because that is what is most comfortable (for both horse and rider) when you are riding sometimes 20-30 miles a day and covering a lot of country while working cattle, opening gates, and roping. That simply cannot be accomplished with both hands on the reins at all times.

The way I see english horses is that they are supposed to be similar to a coiled spring, all circular energy from the legs to the bit and down through the back to the legs again...or something LOL. 

It's really just a matter of different needs and different cultures.


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## RunJumpRide (Sep 29, 2011)

*ahemm*
I ride Western in an O-ring snaffle. I also ride English in an O-ring snaffle.
Yes, it does seem that way, but it isn't. 
Neckreining is a lot more subtle than plow reining - you may just be not looking hard enough. Plowreining is very obvious, even when you're being extremely light with it - and a sensitive horse reacts to the slightest touch; whether you're neck or plow reining. So it may look like englishers depend on the bit more, but it really just depends on the horse and rider.


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## Stan (Aug 25, 2011)

Spastic_Dove said:


> How does a combo bit help replace your leg for cues?


It dosn't replace my leg for cues but the bit in the set up I use is soft. So I really rely on the good will of my horse. :shock:

My question was as I am not using leg or foot cues because of the issue described I am forced to rely on reins.  I was looking for sugestions that could help me and any others like me who use reins as the main form of communication. I did not mention I do also use voice comands but not the amount of control I would like. On reflection I need to teach the horse leg cues that I can manage. 
There is another solution I could tie my legs around the horse and over time I may develop bowed legs to the extent I could then reach the areas of the horse I need to enable clear leg cues. (jest)

I would love to spend some time in a cattle ranch in the USA It's on my bucket list.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I'm at a bit of a loss to understand why someone's legs cannot give leg cues.

Are you trying to give them with your feet or heel? I've been taught to use my calf. 

Also, I need my toes to point out about 45-60 deg to get my leg around the horse. If I try for toes front, it twists my leg around and pushed my knee into the horse, doing all sorts of bad things to my riding. Or I can move my feet forward some, like in the old west, and then my legs will fit while allowing my feet to point forward some and heels to go low.

Riding my gelding:










As for the difference between western and English, modern English seems heavily influenced by jumping. Up till the late 1800s, jumping was done deep in the saddle. The Italians figured out then that getting out of the saddle made it possible to jump much higher, and it seems that English saddle design and style of riding has been adjusted to meet that goal.

Jumping and dressage (from an outsider perspective) seems to need constant communication between the rider and horse, so the horse is 'on the bit' to allow a constant feel. The English rider wants to direct the horse's movement.

Western riders rely more on the horse's initiative. The rider sets the goal, and the horse figures out how to achieve it. This frees the rider up to rope, or watch the cattle, or to just think about something else while the horse feels his way across rough country. Real western riding cannot assume smooth ground.










_Two LS cowpunchers feeling their way over a bad trail. LS Ranch, Texas_, 1907










_Cowboy [possibly Elmer Sager] working the herd and cutting out a steer. Shoe Bar Ranch, Texas_, 1912

BTW - notice his toes pointing out!

From an excellent collection of western riding pictures taken in the early 1900s:

Erwin E. Smith Collection Guide | Collection Guide


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

I used thigh pressure a lot more when I rode English than when riding Western. The English riding position lends itself to that. I used my feet with Western more than my legs. Never felt I could apply thigh pressure as well in a Western saddle (and always hated the horn....even when it was usefull). But for comfort the Western style seat is hard to beat.
As for the reins. As RunJumpRide already pointed out, neck reining is much more subtle. With a well trained horse it can almost go unnoticed. Holding the reins in you left hand, mid pommel, if you move your hand from the wrist just an inch to the right you end up with a rein laying completely on the left side of the neck and lose contact on the right. That's barely discernible, but the horse's sensitive skin notice the difference in contact location and responds. 
As smrobs pointed out. If you're working from horseback or spending all day in the saddle reining is certainly the best option and if you do it long enough you'll soon enough feel it 's the only option )
Many years ago I stopped using bridles for long distance rides and just rode with a halter. It was a pain having to take off the bridle so the horses could comfortable graze when we took a break. Neck reining my horses didn't require me to use a bit and bitless bridles were unknown to me (if they were even available) back then. Neck reining was so convenient that I could be walking back from from the river, catch a horse in the pasture, loop an empty stringer or some bailing twin (if I had some) under the neck and ride the 1/2 mile home bareback with no halter, no leg pressue except what's needed to stay on ), just the neck reining pressure.
I never regretting starting out English. I learned alot about sitting, balance, leg control and resisted going to Western after moving to the US. However, when you work cattle or spend all day riding for any purpose (except perhaps fox hunting ) ) you're hard pressed to beat the comfort of a Western style seat or the control ease of reining (and my thighs were never tired after riding 30+ miles a day ), whereas I wouldn't have been able to walk if I'd stayed with English for working cattle and riding long distances)


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## Stan (Aug 25, 2011)

BSMS
Thanks for the info and the great photos
And yes taught to use heals and toes but not very sucesfull as explained earlier.
I have tried using my calf but don't get the response I want. I think that though is just retraining myself, and then the horse to new cues. I have wondered if the saddle skirt is deadening the feel for the horse. Just a thought. I am trail riding for around 6 hours tomorrow so will make a concentrated effort to adjust my style and use my calf to cue.


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

The old saying "different strokes for different folks" is very true here. It's all about purpose in riding. It would be rather tough to rope a steer or open gates riding 2 handed with contact as it would also be tough to ride a dressage mount on a loose western style neck rein. 

Stan, when you are neck reining focus on using the outside leg in conjunction asking your horse to move away from your leg. Left turn - right leg and vice versa. She will eventually connect the two cues. Asking (rein) & reminding (leg).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

Communication between horse and rider requires contact, no matter what the tack looks like. Sometimes contact is obvious to the observing eye, as in English umbrella disciplines, and sometimes it doesn't look like it is there at all, as in Western. Sometimes it's something in between, in which case either horse or rider needs some tweaking. Contact is required for clear communication, and is NOT about the reins. Dressage folk talk about this facet of things much more explicitly, but it is every bit as applicable to western. Contact is about the acceptance of and response to all the aids - weight, balance, seat, legs, and hands. 

In terms of the reins, English riders/horses on true correct contact do not rely on the reins, or use the reins any more than any of the other aids for control. The contact that the observer (especially a seasoned western rider) might see as a very short rein, something that on the face is restricting, is in fact simply a removal of slack from the reins. It's a relaxed handshake, not a constant pulling. Like the western horse on a drape, the English horse ideally feels the same thing unless the rider's hands actively change to ask for a change. The western horse is taught to respond to a different kind of rein contact, but the contact is still there, there's still a connection between the rider's hands and the horse's mouth. I like the analogy someone made earlier, about it being like a walkie-talkie versus a telephone. The western-terminology equivalent of contact regarding the mouth in the dressage sense would probably be "packing the bit." 

Any kind of rider can rely on the reins too much, be too busy in the horse's mouth, or use the bit as a crutch. Whether that contact is always held and restricting the horse, or the rider is constantly grabbing and snatching at the bit rather than following the motion or staying out of the horse's mouth consistently, communication is being ineffective. Excellent, subtle hands and rein usage is extremely difficult to do right, no matter what the discipline. 

Regarding saddles and feel, people who switch to English saddles often comment that their seat aids feel "magnified," or that they can feel the horse much better. There's just less leather between horse and rider. I have seen Western "close contact" saddles, with cutaways in the skirts under the fenders and that sort of thing.


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

Western like a man, direct too the point, clear simple instructions without worrying about the details,,, "GROG WANT TURN"
English like a woman, thousands of itty bitty hints and clues and nagging, 
even though I didnt say anything you shoulda known I wanted to turn, It would kinda be ok if we turned, do you think it will make by butt look fatter going to the left than right and did you see what marsha was wearing, i kinda think a 20 degree turn, but iff you loved me how come you only turned 19 and my other horse warned me about you and she said that...............................................:lol:


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

:rofl:


Joe4d said:


> Western like a man, direct too the point, clear simple instructions without worrying about the details,,, "GROG WANT TURN"
> English like a woman, thousands of itty bitty hints and clues and nagging,
> even though I didnt say anything you shoulda known I wanted to turn, It would kinda be ok if we turned, do you think it will make by butt look fatter going to the left than right and did you see what marsha was wearing, i kinda think a 20 degree turn, but iff you loved me how come you only turned 19 and my other horse warned me about you and she said that...............................................:lol:


:rofl::rofl::rofl:
I won't say that English had quite that much detail, but that was 40+ years ago, so they may have added more since then.

Western is more direct and much easier to me. With my reins, feet and verbal everything was covered. Not sure how I would have done without a bit when riding English, but certainly gave up bits with Western reining.
Although turning was a lot less primative than "GROG WANT TURN" :lol:. Never had to move an arm or take the hand off the pommel, just a slight turn of the wrist .


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## SRich (Sep 13, 2011)

Wow thanks everyone for the explanations! I appreciate it a lot. 

BSMS- Those pictures are awesome and thanks for the info.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Stan said:


> ...I have tried using my calf but don't get the response I want. I think that though is just retraining myself, and then the horse to new cues. I have wondered if the saddle skirt is deadening the feel for the horse. Just a thought...


The lady I took lessons from this summer has lessons horses who know a lot, but who are also ridden regularly by, shall we say, insensitive riders.

The point she always made, and many of the students in the group lesson seemed to ignore, is that you ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS start with a squeeze. If the horse doesn't respond, bump lightly with the calf. Then a firmer bump. Then a kick. If a couple of kicks don't do the job, then a crop, with whatever force it takes to get the point across.

But you do that sequence EVERY time. She said it might take a horse 300 times if he is slow, but on sequence 301 he might figure out to respond at a firm bump instead of a kick. And that is progress. And if you keep at it, eventually he'll respond to a squeeze.

Of course, if the horse is ridden by 20 different riders, then it is tough. But with her lesson horses, even the stubborn ones usually caught on after a half hour or so, and by the end of a 60-90 minutes lesson would be responding to a nudge instead of a crop or kick.

If the horse is ridden by just a few riders, he'll pick up on the rider. My daughter, I'm sad to say, usually starts with a kick and doesn't listen well to stupid Dad. That is why she is now taking lessons from the place where I took lessons over the summer. But when she rides Trooper, she has to kick because he expects it from her. When I ride Trooper, the biggest problem I have is that an accidental squeeze from my poor ability will be interpreted as "Go faster" or "Turn". I sometimes find myself making a conscious effort to spread my knees to avoid giving unintentional cues. 

Still, it is nice to have a horse who will go from a walk to a canter with a squeeze of the legs accompanied with a kissing sound.

FWIW, the western saddle I use probably has more leg contact than my Australian-style saddle. Past about mid-thigh, the only thing between me and the horse is my Levis and one thin layer of soft leather. The cinch is a bit in front of my leg. With either the Aussie-style or an AP English saddle, the double flap construction and location of the girth puts more stuff between my leg and the horse than the western saddle.

(My favorite is a jump saddle, ridden western style. Lots of feel thru the seat, and nothing between my leg and my horse but my jeans. Unfortunately, my marginal skill leaves me nervous riding like that, and nervous means tension and tension means bad riding...but I'm slowly making progress. Someday...)

English saddles transmit more feel of the horse thru the butt, and vice-versa, but I wonder if that isn't because they have less load bearing area, so the same force sent thru a smaller area makes it more obvious.

I think anyone who gets the chance should try both styles - or toss in Australian equitation as well. :wink:


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## Stan (Aug 25, 2011)

Thanks for all of the information, and to day will be the start of something new but deep down I Think Stella already knows she is just being Stella.

If it takes Stella 300 tries before getting it right how long will it take me and will I live long enough.

She is not as bad as I may have made her out to be, but has had quite a number of riders. When used by the hire company was all trused up so she could not raise or lower her head to any great degree. My first ride when deciding to buy her all of the bits and pieces came off, she was given freedom a bit and headstall and me. We both survived and home she came.

Now I will give a conentrated effort to the advice given and see what develops, off for the ride now.


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## Fatty Lumpkin (Oct 29, 2011)

I LOVE the Walkie talkie Vs telephone analogy. I can use that when teaching folk to carriage drive 4 in hand, it's a very similar thing! Thank you......****wanders off with a big grin****


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Joe4d said:


> Western like a man, direct too the point, clear simple instructions without worrying about the details,,, "GROG WANT TURN"


Wow, you really don't know much about western riding, do you? It's not all about pull to stop and turn and kick to go, there is just as much subtlety in a good western horse as there is in pretty much any good english horse, we just do it on loose reins instead of contact. On a good horse, if I want them to move their shoulders over one step while keeping their head and hindquarters exactly where they are, I can do that. 

In spite of the rather lax appearance a good western rider gives, they are not just along for the ride and giving blunt orders to the horse. Every movement of the rein and leg is telling the horse something, maybe so subtle as "give me a left bend in your body but maintain your straight path toward the gate".



bsms said:


> Western riders rely more on the horse's initiative. The rider sets the goal, and the horse figures out how to achieve it. This frees the rider up to rope, or watch the cattle, or to just think about something else while the horse feels his way across rough country. Real western riding cannot assume smooth ground.


That is a good point as well. Most western riders depend on some level of autopilot on their horses (that comes with many miles and sometimes years of good training) so that they can count cattle while riding across rough country or even let the horse herd the cow ahead toward the gate while you are scanning the herd behind you. I've been doing a lot of that second one in the last couple of days.


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## Stan (Aug 25, 2011)

I took stella out Monday shortened ride only 4 hrs but over hill country to help get her in condition for the trek. Tried to implement some of the changes on riding style mentioned in earlier posts. Using my calf to give signals did not go well. I wonder if the girth strap and fittings are getting in the way. However she responded well to the bit and voice signals, did not argue with me and a good ride was had. I continue implementing the leg signals and see what happens.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Especially when I ride western, I ride in equitation spurs. Equitation Ball Spur in Western Spurs at Schneider Saddlery

I start with an ask (squeeze calf), tell (bump reins and calf) and then I demand (bump spur). If that doesn't work (rarely) then I nail them with the round head of that spur HARD. I am very short, 5'2", and so have trouble communicating through all the leather on a show saddle which is also my everyday saddle. BUT a well trained horse will still read the slight pressure through that leather and go, just with a calf squeeze. I never use a crop but will nail someone's behind with the quirt part of my romal reins.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Gotta chime in. Your seat is correct or not regardless of the saddle. I don't know many people who do NOT start their horse on a snaffle bit today, although Western riders usually switch to some kind of a curb at some point, and English riders often just keep their horse on a snaffle throughout their career.
The Western saddle and tack have evolved from Spanish explorers and Mexican Vaqueros. You can see it with the tooling. The flowers and geometric shapes on Western tack are based on Islamic decoration, from the time when Spain was part of the Ottoman Empire. The pommel and cantle are higher bc the original Spanish Explorers in North America and their descendants kept this in their saddles. In fact, the swell on the Western saddle is a 20th century invention. The late 19th century Western saddle had a more tapered pommel, still deep, and rightly called a "Bucket Saddle."
Alt View
The horn evolved as a way to tie off cattle, hang ropes and things and generally aid in cattle ranching, which brought beef to eastern markets, which of course brought back the western American economy post Civil War. (1861-1865).
The English saddle was a simpler, lighter saddle, brought over to Colonial America (1607-1776) from, well, England and Northern Europe. It didn't require a pad, and it's derivations enabled fast travel between Colonial and post-Colonial towns, as well as jumping downed trees and the like. In the late 19th century and early to mid-20th century America, fox-hunting was a popular necessity and evolved into a popular hobby. The dress and tack for fox hunting has become the dress for Hunter/Jumpers in the show ring. A curb bit isn't necessary for jumping. Plus, you don't want to catch your horse in the mouth accidently and also pull his head down (with a curb chain can do) as you're riding over a jump. However, it's much easier to quickly change directions while cantering or galloping if you direct rein your horse.
MOST everybody in America eventually rides their horses both English and Western, depending on where they are riding. I've know a LOT of horseman who show English, but pack Western tack for a trail riding vacation--SAME horse. Full day rides do not lend themselves to an English saddle, IMHO. Plus, Western saddles have places for big saddlebags, ties for a slicker, places to clip/tie/hang extra canteens, etc.
I won't go into what are the best breeds for what, but I think we'll agree that Western-ridden horses should have a comfortable trot that you sit. (I knew an old cowboy in the 1980's, and he told me that _"A cowboy wants a horse with a good walk and a good lope. Cowboys don't trot their horses."_) English-ridden horses should be able to jump small to medium hurdles, and you post the working trot. (Saddle horns get in the way when you post.)
And, gaited horses...um...well...they DO make cut-back Plantation saddles...I own one, so I can ride the big, gaited horse to the left, in my Avatar. I direct rein AND neck rein him, btw.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Hmmm...I knew an old cowboy in the 70s, and he said the trot was the most useful gait, since it got you where you were going fast enough, but not so fast as to tire out your horse.

Guess not all old cowboys agree!

Here is a picture of a cowboy saddle from 1906:










Looks to me like an A-fork saddle with a very high cantle and much wider stirrup leathers than normally seen today.

Another example from Arizona in 1909:










I love this site for the pictures of working cowboys from the early 1900s:

Erwin E. Smith Collection Guide | Collection Guide


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

What a fun site, bsms!! Thanks for the link!


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Joe4d said:


> Western like a man, direct too the point, clear simple instructions without worrying about the details,,, "GROG WANT TURN"
> English like a woman, thousands of itty bitty hints and clues and nagging,
> even though I didnt say anything you shoulda known I wanted to turn, It would kinda be ok if we turned, do you think it will make by butt look fatter going to the left than right and did you see what marsha was wearing, i kinda think a 20 degree turn, but iff you loved me how come you only turned 19 and my other horse warned me about you and she said that...............................................:lol:


WHAT? 

Western and english are pretty much the same cues. I can have my cowhorse collect with a tweak of a finger and look as though I am in the middle of a dressage test.

Wow. Are you out of touch!


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Always wondered why they call it an English saddle when the design actually came from central Europe and not England?
Of course there are many variations today, but still from the same basic design.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

ilnm, Americans call it an "English" saddle bc the Eastern colonies, where it was mostly ridden, were settled by Englishman, from Plymouth, Massechusetts and Jamestown, Virginia, then throughout the other 11 (Rhode Island, Connecticut, New Hampshire, New York, Delaware, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Maryland, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia.)
_I just wanted to see if I could name them all. _
_New Hampshire's the hardest to remember. I can name all 50 states on a map with the borders. I remember the difference between Vermont and New Hampshire is that New Hampshire has a small Atlantic coastline, and Vermont is landlocked._
When you study it out, BOTH saddles originated in Europe, since the "Western" saddle had it's origins in Spain. And, of course, the "Spanish School of Riding" was based on Spanish equine blood and riding principles. You do know that the curb bit was not used until Northern Europe bred draught horses. Their size necessitated a stronger bit to control. The "S" shaped shank is a lesson in physics bc it gives the rider more leverage with less pull.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Corporal said:


> ilnm, Americans call it an "English" saddle bc the Eastern colonies, where it was mostly ridden, were settled by Englishman, from Plymouth, Massechusetts and Jamestown, Virginia, then throughout the other 11 (Rhode Island, Connecticut, New Hampshire, New York, Delaware, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Maryland, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia.)
> _I just wanted to see if I could name them all. _
> _New Hampshire's the hardest to remember. I can name all 50 states on a map with the borders. I remember the difference between Vermont and New Hampshire is that New Hampshire has a small Atlantic coastline, and Vermont is landlocked._
> When you study it out, BOTH saddles originated in Europe, since the "Western" saddle had it's origins in Spain. And, of course, the "Spanish School of Riding" was based on Spanish equine blood and riding principles. You do know that the curb bit was not used until Northern Europe bred draught horses. Their size necessitated a stronger bit to control. The "S" shaped shank is a lesson in physics bc it gives the rider more leverage with less pull.


Yes,  well aware that todays "Western" saddle came from a Spanish design. At least Spain is western Europe :lol:

I've seen the Spanish Riding School of Vienna. One of the many perks of growing up in Europe. Lovely stallions and wonderful training. But even they ride "English" (they just don't call it "English"). Of course Austria is in the area where that style of saddle originated.

Most saddles from other parts of the world tended have more in common (higher pommel and cantle or some form of forward and rear support) with the Western style. Including England and the rest of Europe prior to the developement of the English saddle. Fighting from a saddle was easier with pommel and cantle that would help keep you in place and provide support.

And you're probably correct about the source of "English" (at least it's logical), since when I rode in Europe the discipline is what we used to identify what we rode (e.g. Hunter, etc...). Except for Western, which we still called Western.


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## Stan (Aug 25, 2011)

Well the continuing training of Stan to use leg cues. Is continuing and it is me that requires the training as I suspect Stella knows.

Yesterdays ride was in a pine forest so the trees were close and a lot of logs and branches laying around and of course general bush and the low branch about 22 hands up the trunk. Leg cues I tried and Stella was responding without the reins or was she just ducking around trees. But it did remind me of why we rely on reins more than leg cues. Riding in bush and in very hilly country in close contact with scrub, gorse, low branches and especally going down steep inclines one can not use leg cues as the legs are out infront by the horses head. However to those that have given me good advise I intend to continue the learning process. More strings to the bow one might say. And Stella was perfect no spooking, bolting, and even took the point for a spell. She is getting better evey day.


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