# If every horse is the last 10 generations on a mares papers was a bay with a blaze...



## iRide Ponies (Aug 10, 2012)

.. and every horse for the last 9 generations on the stallions papers was a bay with a blaze, then if you bred the two together would the chances of the resulting foal being bay with a blaze 100%?

(PS: This is a metaphorical question. Both horses, the stallion and the mare do exist, but there are no plans to breed to two. Its purely metaphorical, because I was wondering about genetics and stuff so... yeah.)

Can anyone think of any two horses that if you bred them together, you would 100% know what color your foal would be? Aside from like Freisians and stuff, that are only one color throughout the whole breed. I'm just really curious.


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## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

There's no way to know 100% unless you know for sure what the horses' DNA says.

Breeding two bays can give you a bay, black, or chestnut foal (or brown if both parents are carriers of At). Bay is the most likely to be produced, though.

As for white markings, they are controlled by pinto genes (only the Overos, as far as I know). Even if the aforementioned generations were all bay with blazes, there is no guarantee that the resulting foal would have a blaze. He could have any variation of white markings, facial or otherwise, depending on what pinto genes his parents have and to what extent they want to express on the foal.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

iRide Ponies said:


> Can anyone think of any two horses that if you bred them together, you would 100% know what color your foal would be? Aside from like Freisians and stuff, that are only one color throughout the whole breed. I'm just really curious.


Cremello to chestnut (always palomino)
chestnut to chestnut (always chestnut)

Everything else depends on the zygosity of the genetics (ie whether horse has one or two copies of a particular gene). Black to black, you can get black or chestnut, depending on the zygosity of the Extension allele (aka red/black factor)

edit; and even with Friesians you never REALLY know. There is such a thing as a chestnut, or "fox", Friesian, though they are not allowed in the registry and horses that produce one are ejected.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

BEP your information on friesians is incorrect. Fox/red friesians can and are registered and the sire/dam are not "ejected" from he registry. If they are purebred they are registered. They just cannot be inspected for star or premium status. 

This link has pictures of a fox/red stallion named Iron Man. ronni?s friesians


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

NdAppy said:


> BEP your information on friesians is incorrect. Fox/red friesians can and are registered and the sire/dam are not "ejected" from he registry. If they are purebred they are registered. They just cannot be inspected for star or premium status.


To add, fox Friesians can be registered, but any foals they produce may not be. The registry very much frowns upon the breeding of them in order to keep chestnut out of the breed as much as possible.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

I stand corrected then.

I was under the impression they weren't allowed in the registry at all, based on some information I had from a Friesian breeder I have been in contact with. Perhaps (as so often is the case!) the rules are different here in Aus... certainly crossbreeding is allowed here and often encouraged, and there are some very very nice crosses because the good Friesians can be used without fear of losing breeding rights for purebreds.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

The only time something can be certain if homozygosity is at play (aside from the chestnut/chestnut and cremello/chestnut pairings of course). If one of them is homozygous black and one of them homozygous for agouti, then yes, you'll get a bay. But just having papers to go off, no. If you can look at all a sires get and see he's only ever sired black or bay, you can take a pretty good guess at zygosity sometimes. But that would require numbers of a minimum of 10 or so foals or more. And I'm pulling that number out of my butt! A LOT anyway - if a sire has 100 foals and they're all black or bay, even on red mares, you can pretty definitively state that he's homozygous for black.

I'd still test to make sure though if you're set on a certain color.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

What MM said.

Plus the added caveat that if you want a certain colour with a certain markings... buy instead. There are homozygous tobianos running around with no white on them at all. Having a white pattern gene doesn't guarantee any expression of it.

Oh, and by the way, it's theorized that any white on a horse at all that's not the result of scarring, is the result of some white pattern or another. Whether it's one of the pinto patterns, or whether it's a part of the leopard complex, or roan, or something thus far completely undiscovered, the theory goes that if it's not scarring (from injury or fungal infections), it's a white pattern gene.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I get what you're saying blueeyedpony but I'm pretty sure there's never been a homozygous tobiano with NO white whatsoever. A horse with absolutely zero white is likely to be the only type of horse without any pinto pattern. Not for sure of course, but most pinto patterns will display physically albeit sometimes VERY slightly (coronet band, small snip, etc.) unless of course you're also dealing with grey. 

That actually intrigues me - can a pinto gene be carried without a single physical trait? Can a horse be splashed white tobiano and not have a single white hair? Color experts? I know we've seen minimal whites but horses with NO white are fairly rare to begin with - what are the chaces they're carrying pinto patterns?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

I have seen photos of a homoz Tobi miniature that had literally not a single white hair on its body. But it was genetically tested T/T, and you can't argue with the genetics. I have also seen photos of a mare that, according to her owners, threw a tobiano foal to a Belgian (thus the tobiano could NOT have come from the stallion). The only white she had on her at all was on her face - NOT a tobiano trait!

It is more than possible for a pinto gene to be carried with no physical appearance of it.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> I get what you're saying blueeyedpony but I'm pretty sure there's never been a homozygous tobiano with NO white whatsoever. A horse with absolutely zero white is likely to be the only type of horse without any pinto pattern. Not for sure of course, but most pinto patterns will display physically albeit sometimes VERY slightly (coronet band, small snip, etc.) unless of course you're also dealing with grey.
> 
> That actually intrigues me - can a pinto gene be carried without a single physical trait? Can a horse be splashed white tobiano and not have a single white hair? Color experts? I know we've seen minimal whites but horses with NO white are fairly rare to begin with - what are the chaces they're carrying pinto patterns?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm sure Chiilaa has her stock of pictures saved to her computer that will save me quite a bit of time googling.. :lol:

I've heard of extremely minimal tobianos but because I'm not the greatest googler, I can't find one at the moment without a single white marking. I did find a mini with two white pasterns that is T/T. Minis are insane with their colors and patterns, so it would not be surprising to see a mini with not a fleck of white have at least 1 pattern. 

Frame is also extremely good at hiding, which is why we harp on those breeding (especially stock breeds) to know their horse's frame status. 

Splash, frame, and sabino are all very good at remaining minimal and appearing to be only "normal" markings. My mare has a large blaze and is N/O. Another user has a mare with just a large star that tested N/O. I board with a SPB mare that has a two socks, a star, and a little snip that hooks on one of her nostrils that teases me about her splash status.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I know they're all good at hiding, I'd just never heard of a horse with ZERO white having a pattern. Especially not homozygous which tends to mark even more then heterozygous tobiano! I'd be very interested to hear Chiilaa's take on it!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Well this mini has no white and is a frame carrier. I know there is very minimal tobis out there, but I can't find my pictures at the moment.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I stand corrected! Thanks NdAppy!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

I can't find the pictures right now, but there have also been horses that have to carry splash that have no white. They were a pair of Gotlands that had no white at all, but one of their foals has tested homozygous for splash 1. I can't remember seeing a tobiano with no white, the least I have seen is this mini mare:









Here is another mini with minimal tobiano:


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Found them!!

These two have each had a foal that has been confirmed homozygous for splash 1. So they both have to have it too, as we all know, homozygous foals need a gene from both parents.


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## iRide Ponies (Aug 10, 2012)

Oooooh, I stand corrected on the chestnut thing. You learn something new everyday!

Gosh, even tho i have no plans to breed my mare (shes the mare mentioned in the original question) you guys have made me really curious! I'm getting her genetics tested now. xD.


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## rbarlo32 (Aug 9, 2010)

Chestnut x chestnut can equal mushroom


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

rbarlo32 said:


> Chestnut x chestnut can equal mushroom


I happened to just see this on the Color Forum the other day and from more googling, there is really no substantial evidence about this. Currently, the colors popping up in those Shetlands is just another anamoly that's unproven. But until some research is put into it, I wouldn't even really mention it.


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## rbarlo32 (Aug 9, 2010)

The thoery is that mushroom is a resevive gene that only effects chestnut ponies


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

But it is a _theory_ and that's it. And part of that theory is that it currently only affects UK Shetlands, which I know you deal with, but it's still a very selective group.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Are you guys actually being serious?  *wanders off to Google*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Sorrel that response is more than a little uncalled for and extremely rude.


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## SouthernTrails (Dec 19, 2008)

NdAppy said:


> Sorrel that response is more than a little uncalled for and extremely rude.


It has been removed, in case others wonder what it was... too bad, can't tell you :lol:

.


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## rbarlo32 (Aug 9, 2010)

Yes I am and yes it has only been found in shetland ponies and people have started to figure out what blood lines can produce a mushroom pony so they are not that rare any more.
New Dilution or Silver Variant?
I haven't yet read through this website but they is plenty of photos to see.


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