# Hands, reins and contact (warning: rant)



## kiltsrhott (Mar 11, 2012)

I had posted a thread on this forum asking for help with a horse that is rarely spooky but violent when she does get that way, and after some thinking I realized that my horse has been most prone to act this way under saddle when riding in one particular D ring snaffle...

When we were having trouble with bolting more than three years ago, I had her in the D-ring. At that point she was new to me, somewhat green, and her surroundings were entirely new. So I blamed it on lack of exposure (which I'm sure contributed to the problem), put her in a bit that gave me some emergency brakes and started racking up the miles. After switching her to a kimberwick (with a slightly different mouth piece), she calmed down a lot. Once again, I attributed it to the hours under saddle and exposure that were helping her calm down.

However, I don't like the kimberwick. She's learning to lean on the curb and too much play in the rein encourages her to tuck her nose behind the vertical and put her head down very low, which is making a horse that is naturally heavy on the forehand even heavier on the forehand. I figured I didn't need my emergency brakes anymore, so I switched her back to the D ring a little while ago... where she had another bolting episode. A bird took flight near her and startled her. I was frustrated with her, and once again, blamed it on training. There MUST be a way to get her to stop bolting!

But then I got to thinking. She's not afraid of birds. I've had birds fly out in front of her/right next to her before and not had a reaction like that, perhaps a small bobble or a look in that direction, but nothing that can't easily be ridden through and ignored. I did some more thinking and realized that when I ride her in the snaffle. She rides with her head higher (which was an intended goal) but also with her nose sticking stubbornly in front of the vertical, and her neck is somewhat tense. We lost that relaxed arch that we had in the kimberwick and I'm pretty sure I could feel some hollowing through the back.

I posted on this forum, and another forum asking for advice on bits and what bits I should try next since this particular snaffle is clearly not comfortable for my horse.

Instead I got ripped apart for having a horse with a bolting problem, told it was a training issue and that I should train her to respond to pressure in the D ring that she hates. No one seems to believe me that she is not normally tense and prone to bolt. I kept being talked to as if she had been bolting all along, so I posted this video just to prove that my horse does, indeed ride calmly.

After I posted the video, I was again ripped apart for my hands and the amount of contact I use. I was told I have no idea what real contact is about and that I have a "flutter rein" which is apparently detrimental to a horse's training. Keep in mind, I said I didn't use much contact in the kimberwick because I didn't like how my horse responded to contact in this bit, hence the hunt for a snaffle. And this video is more than 3 years old so some things have improved since then. I've also been riding and competing stock-type hunt seat with this horse, where less contact and a longer, lower frame is desired (only because I rode appaloosas before this and have been working with the same trainer).

I will be starting regular dressage lessons in the spring which should help me adjust my riding style to the type of horse that I now own and help me lift my horse off her forehand. I am aware of our biggest downfall, and I thought I made that clear in my original post.

Watch this video and tell me, do my hands/reins look really bad considering the discipline I've been trained in?






Feel free to watch some of the others on my channel if you need more to go off.

Sorry for the long post! I needed a little rant in there!

But seriously, if you think my hands really are that bad, I want to know! I want to know if I've been taught wrong all this time, and what I can do to improve on my own until I am able to start lessons with a different instructor in the spring.


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

The video is blocked!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SouthernTrails (Dec 19, 2008)

gypsygirl said:


> The video is blocked!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hmmmm..... worked for me, could it be because you are on a mobile device?

.


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

That should not make a difference...it says it's blocked bc of copyright...I'm guessing music?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

I can't give you an opinion on the threads where you were "ripped apart" for one reason or another, because I don't recall ever seeing them.

Overall, I think your hands are nice. I think they should be just a titch higher, but that's probably just personal preference.
I /do/ think you could have better contact and work her into the bridle more. Again, it's not a huge deal, but I see room for improvement.


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## kiltsrhott (Mar 11, 2012)

The thread where I was ripped apart was not on this forum. Thanks for the input though.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

What discipline would you *like* to be critiqued under? 

As a pleasure rider, you're fine. As a hunter/jumper or dressage rider, your hands are waaaaaaaaaaaay too low and your reins are a million miles too long, your elbows are bowed out. 

As a pleasure horse, your horse is fine. As a hunter/jumper or dressage horse, he is strung out, not working back to front, and has only been taught "head down" because of the bit, not working through his back.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Do I see spurs and a whip? And that bit is the kimberwick?

I ride dressage, but I am also a regular pleasure rider.

Your hands are a little busy in terms of movement up/down but they are also kind of passive. The rein length is fine but it'd be a little more effective if your reins were shorter. You carry your hands pretty low, instead of keeping them aligned to your horse's mouth (hence, passive) An easy way to tell if they are aligned is to extend your pinkies and if they point to the bit then they're ok. If they're too high, your hands are too high. If they are low, then you need to raise your hands. 

If you have whip and spurs...why? One should be enough of an aid (I prefer whip, honestly, because it trains the horse to stop ignoring your leg with or without a whip)

~~

About the D ring snaffle bit, it sounds as though that bit wasn't working for your horse. They can't talk so instead they have to show us if they don't like something. Sky used to bolt with a loose ring snaffle, his way of saying he wasn't a fan. We changed to an eggbutt (albeit it was not big enough) and he was much better.


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## kiltsrhott (Mar 11, 2012)

The original post is the same one, copy & pasted that I posted on this forum. I got much gentler answers here! I'm cool with constructive critique and some of it was, but I can definitely see a lot of snarky undertone to some of those replies!

moderator note: links to other forums are not allowed. link has been removed.


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## kiltsrhott (Mar 11, 2012)

Skyseternalangel said:


> Do I see spurs and a whip? And that bit is the kimberwick?
> 
> I ride dressage, but I am also a regular pleasure rider.
> 
> ...


I started her out in spurs because she was super dead sided. I used the nudge with the inside of the heel, if no response, turn the heel out and use the spur. It worked effectively. The ask, then tell method usually does. I haven't used a spur in years. If you look at my more recent videos, you'll see that.

The dressage whip is not a "go" tool so much as a hip maneuvering tool. At this point we had still not perfected our side pass and I would practice it along the fence line periodically throughout our ride. I would use the dressage whip to press to her flank as I moved my leg back to give her the cue for "move your butt". She's such a long horse and without someone on the ground pushing her, it was hard for me to relay the message that when I put my foot "here", I want you to move the part of your body that's three miles behind that location. haha. It also worked. I don't carry a dressage whip anymore either. I do still carry a crop through. I generally don't use it, but every once in a while it's nice to have to use as a leg reinforcement or an arm extension to reach her flank or hip.

In this video, I was going for the "pleasure rider". Up until now I have only regularly taken lessons from a pleasure instructor, and I have only done HUS and obstacle trail at stock-type open shows with this horse, because this is what I'm familiar with. I have had two dressage lessons but that does not make me a dressage rider in any way.

In the spring I /will/ be taking dressage lessons and moving away from the pleasure style, so I would be receptive to any tips on what to do to achieve more of that.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

What is your end goal? If you're just riding for pleasure, then don't worry about it and go about your merry way. 

If you're wanting more than that, and to compete, then you have some things to change. All in all, the thread is right - personally I think that most horses should be capable of the basics in a snaffle, and if they can't, then there's a major hole in training. Have you only tried the one D-ring? Some horses hate single jointed bits, some hate double jointed bits. Some hate the way D-rings sit, some hate the "noise" of a loose ring. It's all about playing around to find the right snaffle for them. When were the horse's teeth floated last?


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Okay, you just posted that you're going for dressage in the spring. You will *need* a snaffle - the bit you're using, or any bit with leverage, is illegal in the lower levels. May as well start now finding a bit that your horse works well in. 
Then you need to chuck the notion of bit=head down, and start reading up on the basics of rhythm, relaxation and connection for starters. You need to shorten up those reins by almost half, and get some bend in your elbow. You need to have a connection with your horse's mouth, but not in a pulling sense. You're always sending your horse forwards into your hand. 
There are a TON of posts about getting a horse connected back to front. I strongly suggest you hop on over to the "dressage" section of this forum and get to reading, particularly paying attention to posters such as Kayty, Anebel, Maura, and there are a few others I'm forgetting..


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## kiltsrhott (Mar 11, 2012)

Honestly, I'm not sure what my end goal is. I bought this horse just because I liked her, and started doing what I normally do and taking lessons from my pleasure instructor and going to the same shows, but at this point, my goals are changing. I'm getting tired of the pleasure scene, and it's tough to do well if you don't have a QH or an appendix, and a lot of it comes down to who's in the right clique. I also want to jump. My original plans were low level hunter stuff, but Ursula just doesn't quite fit in at the shows I've been attending. Like I said before, I've lined up lessons with an eventing instructor in the spring and want to dabble in dressage a little bit. Even if I don't ever compete dressage, I think it will help us in other areas. My goal really is just to learn as much as I can with this horse and have fun with her. I don't feel the need to ever be the best at any one thing. Some wins at shows would be nice, but they're not essential. I also like to just trail ride with her and hack around the property, but that is much more fun on a horse that's well trained.

The only snaffle bit I've extensively ridden her in is the D ring which is a single joint but thinner and curved. I have ridden her in a loose ring a hand full of times, a long time ago, and that seemed to go well, but it wasn't my bit. It had the same mouth piece as the kimberwick I've been using, which is single joint, moderate thickness, no curve. I have used a mullen mouth kimberwick too and the horse didn't seem to mind it but I don't like not being able to work one side of the bit at a time. I'm looking for advice on what kind of bits to try because I want to narrow down my list before I empty my bank account on a million bits that don't work. Unfortunately I don't know anyone who has a horse that uses bits as big as Ursula does, so it's tough to borrow. The instructor I'm starting with in the spring has a draft cross, so I'm hoping she will let me borrow some to try out before I spend money. I had also considered the fact that anything but a snaffle is illegal in dressage (up to 4th level right?). I'm not sure if I plan to compete dressage, but regardless, I don't like the leverage at this point and I WANT a snaffle. I just need to find the right one.

Ursula had her teeth floated in the spring, less than a year ago. She was checked again in the fall when the vet was out to do fall vaccinations and the vet found nothing unusual. I suppose it is possible that something could have cropped up since then.


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## PrivatePilot (Dec 7, 2009)

I surely have far less experience than many around here, so take my response with a grain of salt, but from a contact perspective, after watching your video, I could hear my coach in my head right now telling me "Don't snap his mouth, get the slack out!" if I were doing the same.

Of course, too tight and that would change to "Don't press the brakes and gas at the same time!", so there's definitely a middle ground to be met, but none of the coaches I've ever worked under the english discipline in general accepted any sort of baggy/snapping reins as acceptable.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

This guide has a lot of advice on different styles and bits, with some pictures of what happens inside the horse's mouth. There are a LOT of options when riding outside a show. I currently ride Mia with a western curb on a trail, and a snaffle in our little arena. Good luck!

http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/aaepfocus/2006/bennett1.pdf


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## kiltsrhott (Mar 11, 2012)

PrivatePilot said:


> I surely have far less experience than many around here, so take my response with a grain of salt, but from a contact perspective, after watching your video, I could hear my coach in my head right now telling me "Don't snap his mouth, get the slack out!" if I were doing the same.
> 
> Of course, too tight and that would change to "Don't press the brakes and gas at the same time!", so there's definitely a middle ground to be met, but none of the coaches I've ever worked under the english discipline in general accepted any sort of baggy/snapping reins as acceptable.


Yeah, I think the problem I face as an English rider with my instructor, is that my instructor is really a western instructor. So I've basically been taught to ride western in English tack. ><


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## PrivatePilot (Dec 7, 2009)

kiltsrhott said:


> So I've basically been taught to ride western in English tack. ><


It's called "Winglish". 

I had the same problem - I switched from Western to English and had some of the same things to overcome. Posting was one (had never, ever done it before), and what seemed most foreign was having constant contact vs the tradition baggy western reins. It did take me some time to get used to holding consistent rein pressure and not making the beginner mistakes of snapping the horses mouth over and over again, but I overcame it sooner than later. I credit my coach 100% for getting past that rapidly as he does _not_ like to see it from any of the riders, aside from the very beginners of course...but they're on horses that tolerate it, in bits that are very forgiving to it.

Perhaps finding a new coach would be part of your ultimate solution. If the coach doesn't fully understand english to begin with and is just teaching it based on what little he/she may know, it's not going to help your situation.

I would also try to work on your upper body as well at the canter - while watching the video, again I heard the voice from my coach echoing in my head - "Don't rock!", and "Drive with your seat, not your shoulders!". Keeping your upper body steady helps a lot with keeping consistent contact - rocking back and forth by it's very nature moves your hands as well, which if not compensated for, ends up with snappy rein syndrome.

(Is it just me that has my coaches voice in my head all the time in these sorts of situations? Hehe)


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## smguidotti (Jul 31, 2012)

I think Ursula's song should be EVERY mare's jingle in my opinion -- that really cracked me up -- the lyrics remind me so much of what I imagine my mare's inner dialogue to be lol

I know some people on this forum disagree with the logic behind getting a horse to "stretch long and low" or as I call it the "stretch down and FORWARD", if you are considering doing dressage and do not want to use leverage bits you need to almost retrain your horse. IMO, if you shorten the reins right now and ask for more contact you will probably end up with a hollowed out back. 

I recomend watching some of Art 2 Ride's videos -- they may help you start in the right direction anyway ;/

ArttoRide - YouTube


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

OP, I see your contact as being lightly supportive. the horse IS a heavy horse, and it can be harder for them to get up off the forehand, so a rider often wants to make the contact become firmer little by little, starting with the "following" , passive type, and going to where you are asking the horse to follow your hand. it's the inbetween stage that can be hard, especially for a big, heavy horse.

I think you are not doing so badly in the inbetween stage. perhaps it would help your heavy horse to be better able to prepare to accept the contact and shift back off his forehand if you practiced using your seat more to contain and slow him, and half halt. your seat looks pretty stable to me, so I bet you can affect him quite a bit by firming up the core, and sitting back and deeper, while exhaling and bearing down.

as for a horse bolting in one bit and not another, it could be that she has something in her mouth, in her palate shape or teeth , that makes the nutcracker action of a snaffle very uncomfortable. have you had the same results in a double jointed snaffle? and are you using a really fat mouthpiece? poeplo think they are kinder, but they can often make the hrose feel like he's gagging with a huge bit. A thinner one can be more comfortable.


PS sorry for the switcheroo on gender for you horse. I couldn't remember mare or gelding.


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## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

Since she freaks with the D ring and not the kimberwick, I'm going to guess that your mare's mouth structure is such that a jointed bit causes a "nutcracker" action. The jointed bit (D ring) may actually be causing her pain, and rather than stop she bolts against it. It has nothing to do with the D rings, but instead the mouthpiece. 

Have you tried a double jointed snaffle?


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## kiltsrhott (Mar 11, 2012)

No, I have not yet tried a double jointed snaffle but it is on the top of my list to try. I've been emailing back and forth with the new instructor too and that was the first thing she suggested. She said she may have one for me to borrow in a 5.5". Unfortunately I will have to wait until I start lessons and I wasn't planning on starting lessons again until April. (I'm too impatient to wait that long! lol)

So far all of you have been super helpful, giving me good critique and info to work with without the nasty undertone. I appreciate it greatly! <3

And yes, the "chicken wings" (or flapping elbows) and the driving with my shoulders are habits my instructor is always trying to break me of. It's terrible I know! It gets worse when I take some time away from lessons and ride on my own for a while. I'm sure I'm horrendous now as I haven't taken a lesson in months! I really need that person standing in the middle of the arena reminding me of all the things I should already know!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

FWIW: Nutcrackers and snaffles.

"_When tension was applied to the reins, the mouthpiece pressed more deeply into the tongue, thereby causing the joint to move away from the palate. Single-jointed bits are usually described as having a nutcracker-like action, the implication being that when tension is applied to the reins, the angle between the arms of the mouthpiece closes and the joint is pushed toward the palate. In our study, any nutcracker effect that tended to push the joint toward the palate was more than offset by indentation of the tongue._" 

- Bitting: The Inside Story by Hilary M. Clayton, BVMS, PHD, MRCVS 

http://horseproblems.com.au/Bits/USDF_Dec05.pdf

A shanked bit with a single joint can hit the palate (there is a picture in the pdf in my previous post). If the horse has a low palate, it might with a snaffle as well. However, when Mia bolted, she always stuck her nose out, so the pull on a snaffle would tend to bend it parallel to her mouth, not up and into the palate.

But each horse has their own mouth, so trying different mouthpieces can make a big difference. Mia generally prefers a single joint to a double joint, but all the double joint snaffles I've tried with her have fat mouthpieces. I'm hoping to ride her this afternoon in a double joint snaffle with a small diameter mouthpiece...I'll see how she responds. Lots of people have horses who hate single joint snaffles, but love a double joint.


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## kiltsrhott (Mar 11, 2012)

Good reads bsms! I love the radiographs! I'm trying to decide what might be upsetting my horse in this D ring as opposed to the kimberwick. Both bits are single jointed, but the kimberwick has straight bars. You would think that would have more of a nutcracker effect on the bars and be more likely to hit the palate than a curved mouth piece, which is what the D has. It also appears, via these radiographs that a more mobile mouth piece gives the horse more of an opportunity to shift the bit away from more painful areas. The kimberwick is very fixed in its position, while the D should be more mobile. Maybe she's just not used to the instability and would actually like a D, egg butt or loose ring if given the chance to get used to it. I also always followed the one or two wrinkles rule and never left the bit hang looser to allow the horse to carry it the way she thinks it's comfortable. Maybe that is worth a try! Our problem could also lie in the thinness of our D ring. It is significantly thinner than the Kimberwick and my horse may just prefer a thicker mouthpiece.

Gah! I just keep talking myself in circles! I really just need to get out there and experiment, but first all the snow and ice in the arena needs to melt!


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

Couple of things.....hands and bit. OK, hands, they are in your lap and arms not elastic....lots of tension there coming from somewhere else in your body. But it can be fixed!

Bit....try a double jointed mouth snaffle, they break back better in the horse's mouth than the peak caused by a single joint.

And to add....spurs are NOT for go, but the dressage whip is. Spurs are for refinement of solid training that is already there. A dressage whip...in your case for a horse that does NOT respond to leg when asked....is for "go". When you ask for forward or an upward change....of course leg asks first, no response....whip is used at the leg to reinforce it.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

oh, if you have the bit too high, that can be uncomfortable. it should be as low as you can leave it without it banging on his teeth that are in front of the bars of his jaw. I usually have almost NO wrinkle. But, it depends on how the bit lies on the bars. too high, and when you pull back it will bang on his teeth that are on the deep side of the bars.


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