# anky rolkur



## Magic (Jan 4, 2008)

omg, I thought becasue Anky invented it, that when she does it, It's not that bad, but this is bad:









poor horse!


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## koomy56 (Jan 19, 2008)

Pretty sad, for sure.  I can't even imagine. I, personally, do not respect her as a rider for this very reason. Also, I came acrossed a video of her warming up and she was so aweful to her horse and then she prances into the ring like she's really perfect. I dont get it.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Magic, sorry for my uneducated question (I'm not english and especially dressage person in any ways), but can you explain what is wrong?


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## Magic (Jan 4, 2008)

kitten_Val said:


> Magic, sorry for my uneducated question (I'm not english and especially dressage person in any ways), but can you explain what is wrong?


No problem!

Ok, so "rolking" is a method of dressage riding that she invented. If you look at the horse's head it is being hyper-flexed (It really messes up the horses back, spine, and neck).


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## Dumas'_Grrrl (Apr 2, 2008)

:twisted: :twisted: :twisted: That so wrong wrong wrong!!!


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## Abby (Nov 26, 2007)

Horse being warmed up in a Rolkur if no one as ever seen it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YODFSUs8_zw&feature=PlayList&p=E5F2368118F2B2E0&index=2


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Magic said:


> kitten_Val said:
> 
> 
> > Magic, sorry for my uneducated question (I'm not english and especially dressage person in any ways), but can you explain what is wrong?
> ...


I really hate defending this EVERY time it comes up.... but the Rollkur is supposed to be brief (10 seconds, max) hyperflexion followed IMMEDIATELY by letting the horse stretch its neck down to the ground. 
Unfortunately the top riders have made it cruel by making their horses maintain the Rollkur for 10+ minutes without a break.
It's not meant to be used this way, and I think that if it was used correctly it could be very effective - I would use it, and probably will when Maia has more training on her.


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## koomy56 (Jan 19, 2008)

JDI: What would you say this method is used for, and why would you be using it? We all know what it does, but what's the goal?


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

koomy56 said:


> JDI: What would you say this method is used for, and why would you be using it? We all know what it does, but what's the goal?


It creates a deeper flexion, and encourages the horse to really round their back and work through themselves - again, this is very brief, but think of holding a fairly uncomfortable position (think the pilates V shape) for a short period of time - it does have its benefits. 
It also teaches the horse to yield its jaw. 
The rollkur is also known as "Deep" or "Deep and round". With the horse being hyperflexed like this, it really makes horse horse's back work, and does build topline.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Magic said:


> Ok, so "rolking" is a method of dressage riding that she invented. If you look at the horse's head it is being hyper-flexed (It really messes up the horses back, spine, and neck).


Oh, I see... Somehow I was thinking you are talking about bit she's using . Yes I agree horse head position looks really ugly and unnatural.


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## HeidiNorway (Apr 11, 2008)

I don't like rollkur at all. But some people says it is for streching the horses back and neck for only a minute. But if it is so, why don't do it like this:


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## Kyani (Apr 30, 2007)

I agree with JustDressageIt to some degree. As in, what she said is totally RIGHT, but it's despicable what riders tend to do with rollkur once they discover it. The number who totally misunderstand the principle of having the horse yield like this ONLY FOR A MOMENT is ridiculous and almost all seem to abuse it terribly. The name rollkur has come to mean exactly what Anky does - use the method to an abusive and cruel degree. When I see the world 'rollkur', this is what I think of, not the proper way of people using it.

It's disgusting, especially coming from a 'top' rider who should know better. Not to mention she's sooooooo fashionable everyone feels the need to defend her and copy her methods.


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## koomy56 (Jan 19, 2008)

I just see it destroying the balance and 'uplift' in the front to engage the hind to have true balance, power, forwardness, etc. You do not need to force a horse's nose to its chest to stretch its back or develop its topline. There are much more humane and classical ways to do so without doing something that strains the horse to that extent. Even if done briefly, it makes a 'break' in the horse as a whole unit. Once you start putting those breaks in the horse it's tough to get them as one piece again, as some of you may know. A horse needs to be 'ridden to the bit' in order to gain true collection, forward, and balance most of all. If you go to such an extreme to make the horse use its back and develop a topline, in my opinion you have missed a few steps prior. 
I am no expert, nor do I declare myself, but this I truely believe in and that is why I'm making such a point of it. We are all entitled to our opinions, yes. I am not angry at anyone who believes in this method I just feel I need to state why I do not. Im not trying to start a fued or anything of the sort.


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## koomy56 (Jan 19, 2008)

*http://www.sustainabledressage.com/rollkur/why_not.php

*Proof in the pudding.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

It is a brief overflexion, and it helps to supple the horse and build muscle.* I have no problem with it when it is used correctly*. 
It's the people that take it to the extreme that makes it "bad."
Here's a quote from another thread I read somewhere else:


> The main aim of all those employing this method of lowering and curling the head and neck of the horse is said to be to get the horse to raise the back and swing it. For the horse to develop the backmusles correctly they need to be working in a relaxed state and not a shortened cramped state, like some horses start out the riding session.
> 
> By bending the neck down, the back is bent up, and by tightening the abdominal muscles the back arches like a bow. This raises the back, relaxes the back muscles and the back starts to 'work'.
> To a certain extent this is the truth, at least in a laboratory environment, experimented on the carcasses of dead horses where rubber bands have replaced the muscles' traction.
> This is all mechanically doable and quite simple physics



.... and I'm sorry, but you can find almost anything on the internet, so quoting a website that says that it is evil doesn't sway me one bit. I heard about Rollkur as being a bad thing, but I really thought about it and did some reading and came to the conclusion. 
Koomy, that webiste you posted has some pretty convincing arguments, but so does this website:
http://www.carpenoctem.tv/cons/di.html

Does anyone remember the House Hippo commercial on TV? Just as with TV, you can't believe everything you read on the internet.
By the way, I'm not saying that you're blindly following this, but I read the exact same stuff as you guys - I was introduced to the Rollkur in the same negative fashion that you guys are - but I thought about it - and realized it actually might be a good idea if used properly.






Have any of you ever done Yoga? Remember seeing the pictures of the people bent in positions you never thought you'd get in, and if you ever tried them that day, you'd have hurt yourself? Well, months later you can do those positions... why? Because your muscles have been trained to - and most Yoga positions include over-flexion, followed by relaxation and letting your body stretch out.


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## Magic (Jan 4, 2008)

JustDressageIt said:


> Magic said:
> 
> 
> > kitten_Val said:
> ...


yeah, sorry I should probably edit my post, I meant to say that it's only bad when the top riders abuse the rollkur method by using it for 10+ mins. I am buying a horse from someone who is friends with anky and he says that Anky didn't want her methid spreading because she knew that people would abuse it. 

If only she didn't abuse it either 

Thanks for clearing that up, justdressageit


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## koomy56 (Jan 19, 2008)

How does doing that raise the back? The head and neck cannot come down comfortably unless the back is already up. Try it yourself. Get down on your hands and knees, drop your back and cram your chin to your chest. See how that feels. Now lift your back, and notice how your head drops with it. So how can cramming the horse's head into its chest encourage it to raise its back? How can a horse raise its back if it isnt being ridden front the back to the front? 
I understand there are many websites for anything you want to look up, and there are always opposing views. I respect your opinion on this but that website was enough for me to look and believe that I would never want to cause that class of discomfort to my horse, even if for ten seconds. I'd rather go about it in a more natural encouraging way. 
My goal in horse training to to better the horse in every way, balance, movement, soundness and comfort. 
So you relate it to yoga, try doing those yoga moves and then exercising in between each movements. Do a stretch, run around. Im sure you'd feel pretty darn stiff, which would enable you to not be able to find the desired 'goal' of the rollkur. I'd much rather encourage my horse to f i n d his way into a soft, swinging and strong topline rather than saying, here let's cram your head down here so when I let go you want to stretch long and low to relieve the tension I just gave you. No thanks.


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## saskiayankee (Apr 29, 2009)

Unfortunately it is a popular method of training in the Netherlands.
I think,... People who train as, they have no respect voor their horses...


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## anrz (Dec 21, 2008)

I understand what people are saying about it not being harmful if only used for a couple seconds, but I just read an article in Dressage Today about the rollkur (I don't know much about it) and here are some things that they said:
"...In the study, 15 horses were each ridden 30 times through a Y-maze, randomly turning right or left at the fork of the Y. Riding through one arm of the Y-maze was always followed by a short round ridden on a 20-m circle in rollkur. Riding through the other arm was always followed by a short round ridden in normal poll flexion. Immediately after the 30 'conditioning' trips, the horses were again repeatedly ridden into the maze. By this time, the rider (a skilled dressage rider) let the horse decide which arm of the maze to enter. Fourteen of the fifteen horses chose the 'normal' arm of the maze significantly more often than the rollkur arm. The researchers also observed that during rollkur the horses showed more signs of discomfort, such as tail swishing, head tossing and attempted bucks. "Some horses learned to associate a particular arm of the maze with the rollkur treatment after a few conditioning repetitions, before the testing phase," sats Dr. Millman. "These horses were reluctant or resistant to enter the rollkur arm during the conditioning phase and needed more forceful cues to make them do so. In a seperate part of the study, eight of the horses were faced with two 'fear tests'- an umbrella snapping open and a fan blowing plastic strips- after short rides in rollkur and normal flexion. After rollkur, the horses tended to react more strongly to the scary stimuli (as measured by heart rate and behavioral signs) and took longer to approach them." "...but the researchers note that their study, published in the journal Applied Animal Behavior Science, isn't definitive."
(All rights belong to Elaine Pascoe and PH)

To me, it seems like rollkur is unneeded and can't people find another way to stretch their horses backs and build topline without causing their horse discomfort? There are other, better ways that don't compromise a horse's comfort level. Wow- this is a really long post.


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## anrz (Dec 21, 2008)

Sorry- Practical Horseman, not Dressage Today. (oops)


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Wow this is an old topic.

I would like to change my opinion on the topic, and highly recommend "Tug of War; Modern versus Classical Dressage" it is a great read.

I do believe that some horses might benefit from a slight hyperflexion, but todays riders have taken it much too far; working for 10, 20, 30 minutes in hyperflexion. Not good for the horse at all.

Regarding the study - was the maze testing both directions? A horse might choose one arm over another for different factors, such as the arm in relation to the barn, the arm being the horse's "better" side, the arm being towards the "out" gate? 
I am very skeptical about studies, especially ones posted in mainstream magazines.


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## BriocheIsLove (Mar 16, 2009)

There are much more natural ways to help a horse use his back and build his topline. For one hill therapy is a 6 week thing to help build your horses topline. 5 minutes both ways with a two minutes rest for 7 days a week and getting less and less as the weeks progress. Also to get your horse to round its back you could be using a fluid rein and help you horse WANT to drop their head and use their back... I dont think hyper flextion should be an option...would you want your head that shoved into your chest? LOL :lol:


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

can you imagine the discomfort those horses are feeling? I didn't like Anky before but since i heard about Rolkur a couple months ago, I REALLY dislike her now.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

anrz said:


> The researchers also observed that during rollkur the horses showed more signs of discomfort, such as tail swishing, head tossing and attempted bucks.


And how often do we see those very same behaviors in the dressage ring these days? A LOT. Dressage has completely lost its way.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

ponyboy said:


> And how often do we see those very same behaviors in the dressage ring these days? A LOT. Dressage has completely lost its way.


 
Actually VERY VERY VERY little in the lower non national and international levels.

Lets not go overboard here. Yes it exists but mainly at the very high elite level. Do not mistake a horse that is trained badly and goes behind the verticle with rolkur. 

They are two very different things.


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

Interesting article - what issue of PH was it in???


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## anrz (Dec 21, 2008)

I can't remember- it was pretty recently though. And JDI- I get what you are saying, and I'm not sure if they said if they did it both ways. If they didn't, I agree with you, probably one or two of the horses did choose that arm for a different reason, but many of them probably didn't. I understand people's views in favor of rollkur if it is used correctly and humanely, but I still think that there are better, more natural ways to develop a horse's topline and stretch out their backs.


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## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

I have read different books which touched on it. I have read articles about it as well. I find it's easy to target well known riders, and don't bite me on this but they are not always in the wrong. It's a matter of education and actually understanding how a piece of equipment work instead of biasing an opinion on other people's views.
I have seen a lot of pieces of equipment out there that were visibly making the horse very uncomfortable. I have seen Anky ride using the Rolkur and could post photos of her ride as well. The horse not once showed any sign of discomfort.

That is simply what I observed while I was there.


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