# Disrespectful/In Heat Mare



## sporthorsegirl (Jun 3, 2011)

So. I decided I want some advice and different opinions about the way Luna has been acting lately. I have had her for almost 2 months, she is very green and had almost no groundwork done with her (she's six years old) when I got her. She is normally calm and submissive, but lately she has been acting more marish. She pins her ears, threatens to kick, give me the evil eye, spooks towards you, etc. I find it odd because this only started about a week ago. I thought (still think) it's because of her heat cycle, but she has been in heat before and she wasn't like this. 

She gets one scoop of mare magic and one small scoop of rice bran every morning. I think I'm going to start giving her two scoops of mare magic and see if that changes anything.

When she acts out, I don't let her get away with it. The first day she started acting up was this last sunday, the day I was going to ride her. She was fine while lunging, but when I got the saddle out, her personality changed. Ears back, giving me the evil eye. I put the saddle and pad on her and she pinned her ears. I smacked her on the neck, she glared at me. It continued like this for a while. I finally got on her and she refused to move. I got her to move, she kicked out a couple times (this seems like typical green horse behavior to me). The ride went okay once she got the "I'm not going to do this, you can't make me" out of her system, I just worked her at the walk and trot. 

I haven't ridden her since sunday, just been doing groundwork. We had a small breakthrough yesterday when I put her in a rope halter and "lunged" her on a lead rope, clinton anderson style. She sends off really well clockwise, but she refused to send off counterclockwise. I remember clinton saying something about driving from the neck. After much backing up and head throwing, I got her to move counterclockwise  We did that a few times and I called it quits, ending on a good note. 

I went to clean her stall this morning and she had made a huge mess. I cleaned it (took me about 25 minutes) and went to dump the wheelbarrow. Came back, she was freaking out and spooking at nothing. It took me a couple of tries to catch her. I led her out to the arena and let her loose and free lunged her for 15-20 minutes. I let her follow me to the tie ring (still in the arena) and tied her to it. She kept snorting, head straight up looking out the door. I shut the door. I groomed her for a few minutes, watching her. I put the lead rope on her to lead her back to her stall. I noticed she was walking behind me and shoved her neck over so she would move her forequarters. Good thing I did too, she spooked and if she had been behind me I would have gotten run over. I made her trot on the lead line for a couple minutes. And then she seemed fine until she got in her stall, where she spooked again...

Tomorrow I'm going to work her butt off if she's acting the same as she did today. I should have worked her more today, but I didn't have time. I'm still getting to know her because I've only had her for two months, but it is a little discouraging when she switches personalities. I just have to keep telling myself that I've only had her two months, and I know that she isn't like this all the time. 

Basically my question(s?) is: Would you be handling this situation similarly to the way I'm handling it? Do you have any suggestions? Also- What is your way of managing a horse that spooks towards you? Obviously move their feet away from you as it is extremely dangerous, as well as yielding the hind and forequarters. When she spooks towards me, I make her trot on the lead line immediately and yield her hindquarters.


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## TimberRidgeRanch (Mar 6, 2012)

I never used the moody mare suppliment nor others like it. I always used and will continue to use Regu mate. I know its exspensive but I find it works the best for mares that are very moody and tempermental. I had a mare that wood squeel and kick out charge and just act wild during her cycle she was a changed mare once I started her on the regu-mate. 
TRR


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

You're just making her mad when you're getting after her, because you don't scare her. I've never, ever had this problem with any mare but I'm a big guy with a lot of strength so I can make a horse sit down if I really jerk on the halter. This horse knows that you're not strong enough to hurt her so she's getting mad and is going to bite you pretty bad if it goes on much longer. Try this: next time she does it, your face is stone. Don't react to it at all, ignore it. If you think she'll bite, block her, but pretend like it never happened. Doing this actually requires more guts than getting after the horse because you have to overcome your fear of her hurting you enough to be able to smile when she's making mean faces. It's tough to do.


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## sporthorsegirl (Jun 3, 2011)

TRR- I've looked into Regu Mate, and I might try it if the extra scoop of mare magic doesn't do anything.

Ian- That's an interesting method. Although I will say I don't want her thinking she is getting away with her behavior if I ignore her. She's very smart and manipulative. I don't think I scare her, and that's a problem I'm working on. Next time she tries to swing her butt at me, I'll chase her off more aggressively. I think maybe she doesn't take me seriously. She has never tried to full on bite me, but she has warned me a couple of times. That's when I smack her on the neck as I don't want her to think it's okay because eventually it will escalate.


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

I would agree that letting a horse get away with something bad would be a problem, if there was such a thing. ;-) that's just a common misconception made about horses by applying human standards of behavior to what they do. The horse aint keeping score. She's just ****ed-off because you're getting after her. If you stop, she'll stop. I promise.


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## sporthorsegirl (Jun 3, 2011)

Ian McDonald said:


> I would agree that letting a horse get away with something bad would be a problem, if there was such a thing. ;-) that's just a common misconception made about horses by applying human standards of behavior to what they do. The horse aint keeping score. She's just ****ed-off because you're getting after her. If you stop, she'll stop. I promise.



Ian- I don't really know how to respond to that... I do know that I don't agree with that statement. Obviously she is going to be ****ed off that I am getting after her. But that's too bad. She'll have to get over it and learn that this is not acceptable behavior. I'm not going to stop getting after her simply because she is angry at me for doing so. If I did, she would get what she wanted. If I stopped, she will most definitely start kicking and biting. This is what I am trying to prevent.

I am still looking for more insight from anyone else.


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## attackships (Jan 12, 2012)

i'm just guessing but i think ian might be talking about "nagging" the horse with your corrections. if she doesn't see you as a leader and she has no respect for your corrections (and especially if you over-correct), she's just going to be irritated and she won't be learning. I can't see your interactions with her so i obviously don't know if that is the case. 

if i were you i would first assume this is a training issue rather than a mare in heat issue. at least long enough until you can track her heat cycles. Keep note of the days she acts particularly strange! then maybe you'll be able to find a pattern there. 

I'm not sure what you mean by spooking at nothing. Does she suddenly rush forward or blow and act scared? is this the first time she spooked at her stall?
Working her butt off might be a good idea if she hasn't had a tough work out in awhile . Do you think she might need more turnout? 

if i were you i would try to ride her a little more often. even if its just at a walk for a few minutes. This is just personal opinion but i like to keep ground work as simple as possible, moving their feet, keeping them respectful on the lead line. I don't like lunging very often. i agree that groundwork is important, but sometimes horses can get soured to it. Maybe set up some cones or ground poles?


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## AnnaHalford (Mar 26, 2012)

can


sporthorsegirl said:


> Ian- I don't really know how to respond to that... I do know that I don't agree with that statement. Obviously she is going to be ****ed off that I am getting after her. But that's too bad. She'll have to get over it and learn that this is not acceptable behavior. I'm not going to stop getting after her simply because she is angry at me for doing so. If I did, she would get what she wanted. If I stopped, she will most definitely start kicking and biting. This is what I am trying to prevent.
> 
> I am still looking for more insight from anyone else.


I can only offer a limited amount of experience. We bought a 9-year-old mare who was pregnant (we didn't know it at the time). For three weeks after getting her home she was an angel, no trouble about anything. Then one day I was grooming her and as I brushed down her neck she pinned her ears and gave me evils. Threatened to bite. Same for girthing-up, she was twitchy and didn't want anyone to touch her anywhere. Having ignored the neck-thing, I then barged into her space and said OI when she snapped her teeth at me when I did something else. 
This didn't work - she didn't stop, and while I believe entirely in the idea that instant correction is normally the right way to go, clearly what I was offering as correction wasn't working, because the behaviour wasn't stopping. Seeing as she was new, I didn't want to up the "violence" of my reaction, specially as my experience with training dog (yes, I know they're not the same, but still) shows that this generally doesn't work either.

So we tried another tack. Every negative reaction on her part - evils, ear-pinning, that sneaky little weight transfer they do when they're thinking about kicking, whatever - earned her several minutes of muzzle-rubs and sweet talk. I mean it, we'd drop whatever we were doing and take her nose between our hands and rub and rub, mostly while teasing her about being a silly mare. If she took her nose away, we'd bring it back down again and keep going. We joked that we were trying to embarrass her in front of her mates for over-reacting. As soon as she put up with it, we stopped and went back immediately to what we'd been doing when she played up. I even did this when she actually did bite me once, on the first day of using this 'technique'. 
After three days or so of this, she'd pack in her tricks as soon as we even looked like we were going to walk round to her nose... Hasn't done it since. 

Note that we continued with groundwork all the time, proper manners in the field, etc., also calming down her 'That's-Miss-B*tch-To-You' boss mare attitude to other horses...


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

attackships said:


> i'm just guessing but i think ian might be talking about "nagging" the horse with your corrections. if she doesn't see you as a leader and she has no respect for your corrections (and especially if you over-correct), she's just going to be irritated and she won't be learning. I can't see your interactions with her so i obviously don't know if that is the case.
> 
> if i were you i would first assume this is a training issue rather than a mare in heat issue. at least long enough until you can track her heat cycles. Keep note of the days she acts particularly strange! then maybe you'll be able to find a pattern there.
> 
> ...


Yes..nagging. lol don't mind me. I talk out my @ss half the time. The stuff I'm talking about, I didn't learn until I went through several years of doing things the hard way and making things worse by following these programs but missing certain key understandings which once internalized made these kinds of problems evaporate nearly overnight. It can take a long time to come to that point. I'm probably just going on a rampage because the idea of these over-the-counter horomone suppressors are so quickly resorted to just to cover up a lack of basic frickin' horsemanship. AAAH! I'll shut up now. Sorry 'bout that.


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

AnnaHalford said:


> can
> 
> I can only offer a limited amount of experience. We bought a 9-year-old mare who was pregnant (we didn't know it at the time). For three weeks after getting her home she was an angel, no trouble about anything. Then one day I was grooming her and as I brushed down her neck she pinned her ears and gave me evils. Threatened to bite. Same for girthing-up, she was twitchy and didn't want anyone to touch her anywhere. Having ignored the neck-thing, I then barged into her space and said OI when she snapped her teeth at me when I did something else.
> This didn't work - she didn't stop, and while I believe entirely in the idea that instant correction is normally the right way to go, clearly what I was offering as correction wasn't working, because the behaviour wasn't stopping. Seeing as she was new, I didn't want to up the "violence" of my reaction, specially as my experience with training dog (yes, I know they're not the same, but still) shows that this generally doesn't work either.
> ...


Now THAT is what I'm talking about. That worked for you too? I like your style.


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## AnnaHalford (Mar 26, 2012)

Ian, thanks. Yep, it worked for us too. Clearly it's anthropomorphism taken way too far, but I like to imagine her having to explain to the others "Well, I bit her because she kissed my nose... ". On the second day, we actually started doing only the things that had made her ****ed off the day before - basically asking her to overreact just so we could come round and embarrass her again. 

I don't think it will fix everything, but I do think it can help. Plus I think that horses, like most dogs, form bad associations much quicker than good ones and that once you've slapped them a couple of times for pulling crap like that, they keep on pulling it because they're thinking 'This is the part where she always slaps me, I'd better get in there first'.*

OP, I have a 6-year-old green mare called Luna too. She hasn't pulled this precise stuff yet, but she is a puller and has broken two fences, one halter, two lead-rope snaps, and loosened a hitching post sunk 2 metres into the ground... I sympathise.



*NB. No, I don't genuinely think that horses reason like this. But I do think that they are context-dependent learners and that seeing as humans tend to do things in the same way each time, and since most horses have one owner, well, they learn that context.


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

AnnaHalford said:


> Ian, thanks. Yep, it worked for us too. Clearly it's anthropomorphism taken way too far, but I like to imagine her having to explain to the others "Well, I bit her because she kissed my nose... ". On the second day, we actually started doing only the things that had made her ****ed off the day before - basically asking her to overreact just so we could come round and embarrass her again.
> 
> I don't think it will fix everything, but I do think it can help. Plus I think that horses, like most dogs, form bad associations much quicker than good ones and that once you've slapped them a couple of times for pulling crap like that, they keep on pulling it because they're thinking 'This is the part where she always slaps me, I'd better get in there first'.*
> 
> ...


Yeah, maybe it is anthropomorphism but that's just a human tendency right? We assign these characteristics to our pets which don't necessarily exist, but then again don't necessarily not exist either. I read somewhere that even between human beings the words we say are only like 7% of our total communication. It's like we don't even fully understand how we communicate amongst ourselves, let alone with other animals. So who knows. If you're going to anthropomorphize though, I don't reckon there's any harm in assuming the best in a horse. Certainly when the results end up being what you wanted in the first place anyway.


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

Ian is right, to a point. There are times you need to ignore their "bad habit". When you are constantly correcting them and they keep doing it, it has become a game to them. Ignoring their behavior takes the "fun" out of it and they quit. 

Many horses will be good when you first get them. It's just like putting them in a new herd. They are at the bottom of the totem pole. In time, 1 or 2 months, they will start testing or challenging to see if they can move up. I think this is really what is happening. Since there was little ground work done her, she has little respect and trust for you. Also why she runs over you when and being spooky. I really don't think it's a marish thing. That gets blamed too often. 

Just remember that when you need to correct her, you only have a 3 second window at most to do it. It has to be done instantaneously. Instead of having her trot, I would try making her back up. That will also help with her respecting your space.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Light (Mar 4, 2012)

Hi,
You might want to make sure there isn't another reason such as pain for why she is acting how she is about being sinched etc. If you just got her it would be a good idea to have a vet check done if you haven't already. When my mare was getting weird about being saddled I checked my saddle fit and found that it was not a good fit. I bought her another one and another girth and she didn't mind being saddled. My vet also said that ulcers can cause a horse to act that way.


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## TimberRidgeRanch (Mar 6, 2012)

I had a mare named TANGO that when I first got her she was definately a pushy stubborn mare she wouold test everyone. Took one incident that she did for me to ut her in her place and that is when she dragged me over a stump. I immediately got on her and kept her moving (once I got up ) even when she wanted to stop I moved her forward then turned her in both directions and backed her up and stopped her when I was ready. I then released the pressure and she dropped her head in my arms. From that point on she never tried it with me again. Had her at another barn and the girl caring for her and her filly was longing her and TANGO would try to bolt away, the girl would let go of the longe line Now TANGO new she had this girl in her "Hay Bag" I showed the girl that when she does it to just keep her moving backwards till your ready to stop her, then move her on till she drops her head and relaxes and responds then release the pressure. I worked with the girl not the mare. Its all about Pressure and release. I agree to a point with IAN about not reacting. I will however react to when a mare spins her hind end at me. I would do just what another horse would do ( kick back ) squeel and snap a whip on her ***. I will not tolerate a horse to spin and show hoof. 
Some mares just get really nasty in their heat cycle to the point they are just unmanageable. Thats where REGU-MATE comes in handy. Your basic suppliment just isnt strong enough for some mares heat cycle. Like when women have their " FRIEND" and you get it bad with bloating aches cramping etc etc. No amount of Tylenol or PMS pills do the trick some have to be on a much stronger medicine. So her response to you is like You wanting someone hanging all over you. HELL NO! lol

TRR


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I took this quote from the Mare Magic site. If we read carefully, there is no solid proof that it helps mares deal with fluctuating hormones. Note the words "it is believed" and "are thought to help". 
"Raspberry is an herb widely known for its benefits to mares because it is believed to temper the effects of hormonal fluctuations. The active ingredients in Raspberry are thought to help regulate smooth muscle tone in both the reproductive and gastrointestinal tracts, relaxing muscle that is in spasm and strengthening muscle that is weak. Mare Magic’s dried leaf formula smells wonderful and horses find it very palatable. "


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## sporthorsegirl (Jun 3, 2011)

The BO called this morning and said she's in heat. As I said, this is main reason why she has been acting up. I will do more groundwork her today and if she spooks I will back her rather than send her off, that makes more sense. If she simply gives me the evil eye and flattens her ears (no lunging at me) I will ignore it... However if she threatens to kick or bite she's gonna get smacked. I'll post later to tell you all how it went.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

sporthorsegirl said:


> The BO called this morning and said she's in heat. As I said, this is main reason why she has been acting up. I will do more groundwork her today and if she spooks I will back her rather than send her off, that makes more sense. If she simply gives me the evil eye and flattens her ears (no lunging at me) I will ignore it... However if she threatens to kick or bite she's gonna get smacked. I'll post later to tell you all how it went.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good luck today. Remember, you don't have to let yourself be bitten. It's okay to block your horse or to move her feet to avoid getting kicked. It's all in the attitude baby. Be cool. Don't think of punishing your horse for acting up. Just think of 'interrupting' her when she's doing something you don't want. Just cause her to think about doing something else and these problems will vanish all by themselves. It'll work. Just gotta give your horse a chance!


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## sporthorsegirl (Jun 3, 2011)

Ian McDonald said:


> Good luck today. Remember, you don't have to let yourself be bitten. It's okay to block your horse or to move her feet to avoid getting kicked. It's all in the attitude baby. Be cool. Don't think of punishing your horse for acting up. Just think of 'interrupting' her when she's doing something you don't want. Just cause her to think about doing something else and these problems will vanish all by themselves. It'll work. Just gotta give your horse a chance!


Now that I agree with  everything went well today, no biting or kicking  only one spook and I wasnt next to her when it happened. I lunged her on a long lead line for about half an hour and she was pretty responsive and took me seriously. Thanks for all the advice and input everyone 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GreySorrel (Mar 5, 2012)

One word on regumate if your a woman....
*Health Hazard Data - Warning*

Pregnant women and others of child bearing age should exercise extreme caution when handling this product. Acute effects after single exposure are possible; however, continued daily exposure has a greater potential for these effects. Acute effects include disruption of the menstrual cycle, uterine or abdominal cramping, increased or decreased uterine bleeding and headaches.
People who should not handle this product include: women who are pregnant or suspect they are pregnant; anyone with thrombophlebitis or thromboembolic disorders or with a history of these events; people with cerebral-vascular or coronary-artery disease; women with known or suspected carcinoma of the breast; people with known or estrogen-dependant neoplasia; women with undiagnosed vaginal bleeding; people with a benign or malignant tumor which developed during the use of oral contraceptives or other estrogen-containing products; anyone with liver dysfunction or disease.
There are no warnings on the MSDS for men regarding the effects of Regu-Mate®. However, there are a few research papers which indicate that there can be some long-term effects on stallions which were treated with this medicine. Miller et al. found that the testosterone of stallions was suppressed for 60 days after treatment with this medicine(2). Therefore, it would be prudent that humans of both genders take the same precautions to prevent skin and eye contamination.


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If Regumate does this to a human, what exactly does it do, long term, to a mare? OP, I would seriously consider what you put into your mare's body and the long term use just because she is acting the fool. I think your doing the right thing by working her little hiney off and moving her feet, be consistent and firm, if you find yourself growing mad, leave her be, walk away, take a deep breath, then go back once you have calmed down.

One thing I have had really good success with is buying raspberry leaves in bulk and giving it to my two Percheron mares, one of which is a real hussy! I give them a 1/4th of a cup to a 1/2 a cup of the ground raspberry leaves, that in bulk, are a lot cheaper than the fancy packaging your buying when you get mare's magic.


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

First off, your mare should not be afraid of you, she should respect you. As far as how to treat her bullying, I would treat her like another horse. Go watch horses in a herd for a while. The dominant one can and will bite and kick the others. The more submissive ones either "move their feet away" or try to get away, even sometimes just ignoring it. To a point, I agree. You should be careful to not overreact to every little mistake you mare makes, but she also needs to respect you as her herd leader and your space. No exceptions! I wouldn't say most people are quick to put mares on supplements just because they're a little "marey." I have never really had much problem with my mares, but my friends mare on the other hand...oh boy!! Generally very sweet, quiet and willing. That time of the month, she is a down right nasty b**ch!!!! Totally polar opposites. My friend is a vet tech, and has administered Regu-Mate to mares and has gotten a small amount on her hand...lets just say it was NOT pleasant for her that month!! lol But, we're talking about a 1,000 lb animal. Surely this has been through the FDA and is safe for them, not us. She tried it on her mare and it made all the diff in the world. But I think your mares problems are more behavioral then hormonal. Maybe just exaggerated by hormones!


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

There is no need to lunge her for half an hour as it becomes mindless to the horse and it teaches nothing. Instead, limit your circles to 3 in each direction with a few changes of direction. This tells her you can make her move in the direction of your choice. It will also keep her alert instead of zoning out. If she's thinking about biting, don't slap her on the neck or she will turn it into a game. Instead when you lead her, give her about 3' of lead rope and suddenly flap your elbow near her muzzle. Just take her for a walk and periodically do this. If her muzzle runs into your sharp elbow do not pat or rub her but keep going. Then when you are saddling, flap your elbow. She doesn't want to connect with a sharp elbow and since she doesn't know when it might happen this should end the bad attitude. People often love on horses at the wrong time to soothe. They are not toddlers who understand this. Horses see it as a reward for all behavior, good and bad.


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