# Still think she's bay?



## lilruffian (Jun 28, 2010)

Must wait until she's entirely shed out. My friend has an Arab gelding who's identical in color and he's a bay although his face always appears a bit darker at the points


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## Seven Red Roses (Sep 12, 2012)

Some bays have what's called "mealy" shading on their muzzles and it looks like that's what your girl has.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

I'll wait until she sheds more, but it looks a bit more like pangare than brown at the moment.


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

It would be tough to say for sure until she sheds out, but I would hazard a guess that she is bay with pangare. Someone can definitely correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the lighter points on a brown have more of a "cinnamon" look to them like my mare below. I'll leave it up to someone a little better versed in colour to confirm, but that is my guess.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Brown tends to cause "warmer" tones on the lighter areas and, yes, a more cinnamon type tone. Pangare is usually "colder" and closer to white. Peppy Barrel Racing has a bay colt with pangare that looks distinctly different than a brown.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Double post....


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

^^^^ I saw my name and guess we need a pangre example . I actually have come to the conclusion the Jet is brown and pangre what do you think Poseidon. But you can see here the mousey grey of pangre.

















_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blue Smoke (Dec 22, 2012)

I guess I will wait and see what transpires after she's completely shed out. It definitely isn't white/cold, but its not cinnamon either, more in between. How long does it take for the foal pangare to disappear if in fact that's what she's showing? She's a yearling. I don't think either of her parents has pangare, Arabs don't carry it, welsh do, however, her dam did not carry it that I'm aware of, and neither did her sire. Can it skip a generation, I'm not that familiar with it?

Dam


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Blue Smoke said:


> I guess I will wait and see what transpires after she's completely shed out. It definitely isn't white/cold, but its not cinnamon either, more in between. How long does it take for the foal pangare to disappear if in fact that's what she's showing? She's a yearling. I don't think either of her parents has pangare, Arabs don't carry it, welsh do, however, her dam did not carry it that I'm aware of, and neither did her sire. Can it skip a generation, I'm not that familiar with it?
> 
> Dam


Neither of Jet's parents have pangre.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Blue Smoke said:


> I guess I will wait and see what transpires after she's completely shed out. It definitely isn't white/cold, but its not cinnamon either, more in between. How long does it take for the foal pangare to disappear if in fact that's what she's showing? She's a yearling. I don't think either of her parents has pangare, Arabs don't carry it, welsh do, however, her dam did not carry it that I'm aware of, and neither did her sire. Can it skip a generation, I'm not that familiar with it?
> 
> Dam


Pangare is in Arabians, it's not common, but it's there:










As far as how it is inherited, well that's not really understood at this point in time.


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## PreciousPony (Feb 15, 2013)

I don't know if it's just the lighting or the dust, but in the 4th picture her tail looks really gray! Maybe she will gray out  The bottoms of her legs look a little grayish to me also.

But I'm not a color expert at all so don't take me too seriously


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

PreciousPony said:


> I don't know if it's just the lighting or the dust, but in the 4th picture her tail looks really gray! Maybe she will gray out  The bottoms of her legs look a little grayish to me also.
> 
> But I'm not a color expert at all so don't take me too seriously


That's the pangre causing that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

Blue Smoke said:


> I guess I will wait and see what transpires after she's completely shed out. It definitely isn't white/cold, but its not cinnamon either, more in between. How long does it take for the foal pangare to disappear if in fact that's what she's showing? She's a yearling. I don't think either of her parents has pangare, Arabs don't carry it, welsh do, however, her dam did not carry it that I'm aware of, and neither did her sire. Can it skip a generation, I'm not that familiar with it?


If that is pangre (which I'd be almost positive to say it is), it doesnt disappear or shed out. The color is cream or "mealy". QH have it. My friend has a 9yr old bay mare with the same coloring as yours. And she is pangre bay. She is a year old, so her first shed this year will be VERY close to her true color in adulthood. It wont change much, UNLESS she starts to roan, or grey out.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Wheatermay said:


> If that is pangre (which I'd be almost positive to say it is), it doesnt disappear or shed out. The color is cream or "mealy". QH have it. My friend has a 9yr old bay mare with the same coloring as yours. And she is pangre bay. She is a year old, so her first shed this year will be VERY close to her true color in adulthood. It wont change much, UNLESS she starts to roan, or grey out.


Actually, foal pangare is very, very common, while adult pangare is not as common, especially in most common breeds. So they do grow out of it.


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

Chiilaa said:


> Actually, foal pangare is very, very common, while adult pangare is not as common, especially in most common breeds. So they do grow out of it.


But it's a yearling, wouldnt that be shed out by now?


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Not always. I personally don't see a horse as being an "adult" colour wise until they are two or even three.


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

Ok I was just going to post a picture of my bay gelding as a baby with pangre.... and I ran across a few pictures that made me question his color again, lol... I wont hijack your post though. Anyway Chiilaa, I know your know this stuff better than me, (I'm not trying to be a smarty pants), I'm just wondering if I got the foal shed wrong. Is it their baby hair, or the first spring shed when they are yearling? I'm going to have to send you pics of my gelding....


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

OK! Good to know!! So does the OP have to wait until about 3 yrs to find out if the pangre will stay?


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

I think after a year you'll know if its staying.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

So I was right? Is there a bit of a disagreement here?

IMO, (not an expert) with bay, browns, etc. the color doesnt change too much UNLESS it has some other modifier (not sure if I 'm using the word right), like roaning, greying, or what not.... That is what I mean earlier. I mean my solid gelding has changed color, but not by much and it's only probably noticeable to me. My mare is a paint, she is the same colors, but she has more and more roaning every year.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Wheatermay can you post a thread of your paint "roaning"? I'm asking because true roan isn't progressive and I'm curious to see your mare.


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

NdAppy said:


> Wheatermay can you post a thread of your paint "roaning"? I'm asking because true roan isn't progressive and I'm curious to see your mare.


Like I said I suck at the actual words, lol. I'm learning from the experts, but I still suck! I think the "roaning" I'm talking about on my mare is actually rabicano trait. But her vet just calls it roaning (no one is using the term correctly, and we know it, but it's easier, lol...) I think I have posted a picture before of her on a thread, but it's been awhile ago. I could do it again for the fun of it again! Actually my "bay" Chillaa think sis actually a light brown that mimics a bay. I still call him bay. LOL.... Let me see what pics I have to show of them and I'll post something...


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

Wheatermay said:


> Like I said I suck at the actual words, lol. I'm learning from the experts, but I still suck! I think the "roaning" I'm talking about on my mare is actually rabicano trait. But her vet just calls it roaning (no one is using the term correctly, and we know it, but it's easier, lol...) I think I have posted a picture before of her on a thread, but it's been awhile ago. I could do it again for the fun of it again! Actually my "bay" Chillaa think sis actually a light brown that mimics a bay. I still call him bay. LOL.... Let me see what pics I have to show of them and I'll post something...


Ok I was looking through the pics I have and I have no pictures AFTER the spring shed. She just finishing it up. And I can tell you it's ALOT ALOT more than it was last year, AND TONS more "roaning or ticking" since the last pics. But I have those pics and I'll take pics tomorrow and you can see how much it's progressed. So that will be great! 

My gelding has white ticking but and he gets a little more every year (it's in his barrel), but it's not anywhere near what my mare has (they have the same sire, that's why I mention). I'll take a picture of that too. I'll put them both on the same thread bc his color is fun! LOL! He's a brown, but looks like a copper bay. Hard to tell with him! So I'll post that stuff tomorrow evening for some fun!  I dont hate showing off my babies!


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## Blue Smoke (Dec 22, 2012)

Thought I'd add a few recent pics to this...


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## Tupelo (Jun 20, 2013)

To me any horse with a black mane and tail. with a dark brown body is a bay. im kind of confused as to what a brown horse is? I thought they were dark chestnut.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

A Balck horse that carries at least one copy of the agouti gene is a bay. The agouti gene has 3 different variants. One produces true bay which is black with the body color modified to a shade of red or even what you may think of as brown that has little variation across the body (unless they have pangere or smutty). Another further restricts the black and red is carried down the legs to the ankles with little variation across the coat and is called wild bay. The third variant is what they call brown It is a black horse with the same restriction but there are specific spots that are lighter than the body color. The body may appear more red or brown but will also have the lighter areas. These are at the flank, under the forearm and under the eye. It can be confused with pangere or be caused by sweating so genetic testing is what tells you which applies. I'll add that a smokey black horse which is black with a cream gene and no agouti modifier also has a lighter body when faded and occasionally gets mixed in to add to the confusion. Knowing the color of the parents helps to know what is possible and again genetic testing tells you for sure what is going on.


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

> To me any horse with a black mane and tail. With a dark brown body is a bay. Im kind of confused as to what a brown horse is? I thought they were dark chestnut.


What QtrBel said. Brown is a form of Bay and they are very similar, both to look at and genetically. I believe it is a modifier tagged onto the agouti gene that creates almost identical colouring to your typical bay, but with the orangey coloured hair on the muzzle, flanks, etc. The mare in my avatar and profile album is a brown and tbh, I didn't know what brown was either until I came on here.


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