# Developing Canter on Green Horse



## MaieuticManege (Mar 2, 2009)

Have you tried over exaggerating your body position when asking for the left lead? Open up your right leg (and move it slightly forward) to encourage him to move that way and move your left leg back some and have it come against his side. Also you can reach back with your left hand and spank him on the butt. This will help him feel the way to make the transition because of the way your body is setting him up. If he doesn't get on the correct lead bring him down and try again. When he does pick it up leave him alone and let him choose when to downward transition (don't automatically stop him for rest because this will get confusing). After he is picking up his left lead well then you can work on him maintaining the canter.

Hope that helps


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## SaddleUp158 (Dec 26, 2008)

My 4yr old use to be like this and probably for a 3-4 weeks straight we battled this (that is once i decided to do something about it and not chalk it up to greenness). Ask for the lead you want and if he does not take it put him on a very small tight circle so that it is uncomfortable for him to canter on the incorrect lead. After making him canter that way for a 2 or 3 circles (whatever feels right to you) then ask him to come back to a walk or trot and ask for the canter again-once again on the same lead. Everytime he picks it up incorrectly put him on the tight circle and then bring back down and ask again. Make sure you are asking when his inside should is forward so that the next step he takes will be in tune for picking up the correct lead. It may help to do this in a round pen initially until he understands it there and then progress to an arena.


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## Ahsisi (Apr 13, 2009)

As far as picking up the left lead goes, you can try a trot pole set in the corner. Ask him to canter over the pole. ANd when he picks up the wrong lead, try to NOT let him do the flying change to the correct one. Bring him back to the trot and try again. Always ask in the corner or on a circle for now until he figures it out, then you can do the straight aways. You can also try a little bit of an opening inside rein to help lead him into it, but keep your inside shoulder up, don't drop it when you ask, otherwise he will for sure pick up the wrong lead every time. I hope this helps! Good luck!


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

Thank you all for the suggestions! I don't have access to a roundpen, SaddleUp, but I was thinking about having someone come out and hold him on a lungeline while I ride the canter (I'm due for some work on the lunge myself, lol). I'm concerned about riding him on too tight of a circle, esp. if he's on the wrong lead. He gets off balance doing lateral flexion sometimes, ha ha. I lunged him today (Weatherman called for rain and nasty all day, and the arena was soaked from the last three days of rain, grr.) and he was a little exciteable. I didn't press the canter issue, since the footing was kind of slippery. Hopefully things will dry out and I can put some of these suggestions to work!
Thanks!


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## SaddleUp158 (Dec 26, 2008)

Scoutrider said:


> Thank you all for the suggestions! I don't have access to a roundpen, SaddleUp, but I was thinking about having someone come out and hold him on a lungeline while I ride the canter (I'm due for some work on the lunge myself, lol). I'm concerned about riding him on too tight of a circle, esp. if he's on the wrong lead. He gets off balance doing lateral flexion sometimes, ha ha. I lunged him today (Weatherman called for rain and nasty all day, and the arena was soaked from the last three days of rain, grr.) and he was a little exciteable. I didn't press the canter issue, since the footing was kind of slippery. Hopefully things will dry out and I can put some of these suggestions to work!
> Thanks!


Ooh if the footing is not good then I wouldn't be doing any tight circles either! The round pen is not a necessity, but can make things easier sometimes. As for balance my gelding was not balanced as well, but horses will do everything they can NOT to fall, so provided the circle is tight but not too tight you should be fine. Good luck!


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

First of all, you have to stay balanced and in the center of the tack, throwing your weight around and thus the horse off balance is only going to end you up with a variety of issues down the road. Basically I entirely disagree with MM's whole post.
If the horse has difficulties with the left lead under saddle, then work with it on the lunge. Horses will eventually develop the muscle if we positively enfore it on the lunge. Just please tell me you are using side reins and proper lunging equipment, or else you're probably making the problem worse. We always need to enocurage young horses to properly come into the contact while working.
And don't let him swap leads. Again this is going to create issues in later days if you continue to let him do that, or even encourage it. Don't punish him, just come back to trot and ask again.

Good luck!


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

Anebel, thank you for your post. I do not use side reins or other equipment when lunging my horse. What I am doing is basically roundpenning with a halter and long line. I do not have any experience with side reins, and I fear through my inexerience with them I could do more harm than their correct use could do good. I do understand the necessity of getting my greenie to come onto contact and begin work in a collected frame, but under saddle, contact comes with acceptance on the part of the horse of soft rein aids and support from the rider. Tying the reins off to a surcingle or saddle seems like the equivalent of taking away the forgiving, following hands of the rider and asking the horse to be just as soft and accepting when the "rider" is not. Please, correct me if I'm wrong, or if correct side rein use somehow achieves the same effect as an experienced rider. I am encouraging Scout to come onto contact at the walk and trot using half halts and lateral and vertical flexion exercises.
I don't think that MM is condoning flopping around and misbalancing horse or rider, but overexaggerating the cue to make it abundantly clear to the horse, who has very little idea what the cue means at this point, what I am asking for. I have used a similar technique on a lesson horse teaching him to sidepass with great success.
SaddleUp, I'm hoping that the rain will stop soon! The arena usually is decent, but 4 days of rain has kind of an adverse effect on the footing. I feel bad for my boys stuck inside (The pasture is in the same shape as the ring, at this point), or I wouldn't have lunged on the surface at all. The farrier is coming out on Tuesday as well. As of now Scout is barefoot, (testing the waters a bit, I've owned him for all of a month, lol) but he's a little tender footed, only in the arena or other hard packed ground and faster than a walk, so shoes in some configuration are going on. Maybe the tenderness is affecting his canter? Well, I'll know when the arena/lagoon dries out!
Thanks again!


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Contact is an extremely black and white thing to horses. They don't understand about developing and pushing into it if the rider's hands are contantly moving around and pulling their face every which way. Any rider on any "normal" horse needs to have extremely steady hands in order to teach the horse not to duck behind the bridle or otherwise evade the bit. Basically the more movement the rider's hands have, the less steady the horse's neck/head/mouth are going to be. By using side reins when lunging, we take away the unsteadyness of a rider's hands away completely, which allows us to really enforce the connecting aids and get the horse's engine going without having to worry about a rider getting unbalanced and jabbing the horse in the mouth. And bending/flexing a horse's neck is not only fundamentally wrong, it teaches the horse to evade the bit. The only parts of the horse that really "move" in lateral flexion and bend are the ribcage and a slight flexion at the poll, the spine remains absolutely straight. As for longditudonal flexion exercises as you call them, these are basically useless at this point because they don't teach a horse contact, they help a developing horse to strengthen the contact. All you are doing by asking the horse for different frames at this stage is confusing him. Keep everything very simple, there is one correct frame, one conact and one position that you ask for and that is straight from poll to tail, from two legs into two reins into a steady hand with a vertical head and neck stretching up from the base of the neck and forward/downward from there.

As far as this throwing your weight around thing, honestly it creates problems. You just have to trust me. Your best bet is to establish a vocal aid on the lunge and use that as a re-enforcement to the correct aid. Throwing a horse off balance is as easy as tipping slightly forward (like 2-3 degrees) and can end up creating rearing/bucking/balking issues. As far as moving the outside leg back a little further, or using a stronger aid, sure go for it.


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

I think we may be misunderstandeing each other, Anebel. When I say following and forgiving hands, I don't mean constant pulling and jerking in random ways. I'm talking about picking up a soft contact with the horse's mouth and maintaining the same feel. This takes the epitome of steady hands (I'm constantly trying to better my own), as the rider's hands need to move with the motion of the horse's head and neck as they move forward. This steadyness is especially evident at the walk and the canter, as the horse, whether collected or not, uses his head and neck within these gaits to balance, and the rider must be steady enough to maintain the same feel on the horse's mouth through this natural motion. My point on the side reins is that, especially at the canter, a contact that does not make allowances for the natural movement of the horse could encourage an unnaturally stiff head and neck carriage. As I said, I am not experienced with these tools, hence my reticence to rush out and buy them and ruin my horse through _my inexperience_, not the tool itself. 

I do have a solid lunge and undersaddle cue that Scout has demonstrated that he does understand. The transitions promptly and pleasantly follow my cue (a firm, verbal, Can-TER). At this point, my cantering issues are basically the "trouble" left lead and the refinement that will follow the acheivement of basic correctness. Due to the lack of a solid left lead at this time, I have not yet begun refining the transitions. I do not want to continue forward on the right lead and have a gorgeous right lead with correct collection and impulsion, and a strung out wrong lead to the left, lol. The canter issues may even be my own impatience. I have only had this horse since mid-May, he is (ballpark) 7 years old, and as of mid-May his canter transitions included minor bucking, which is gone, or I wouldn't be fussing over leads, lol.

I won't go into my reasons for lateral flexion. What you are describing, Anebel, sounds like the textbook example of the final product, whichI have achieved on other horses using the same technique I have used on Scout, although a correct bend, on a circle, for example, does, in my understanding, include that bend following through the horse's neck to the same degree that his ribcage, etc., bend. My horses do not evade the bit, and they are soft in their faces and supple to turn. I am not asking for "different frames" and holding an unnatural lateral bend, I am asking for a soft and willing acceptance of the bit pressure laterally, then releasing and asking for straightness, which almost (this is a horse, not a machine) always follows. I also never called it longitudinal flexion, only lateral. I have never heard what I'm doing called longitudinal flexion, and if that is something that you have heard of that is incorrect, I apologize for spending time on the topic.

I am curious as to what you mean by an "normal" horse, and the hence "abnormal" horse who does not require extremely steady hands.

Thank you all so much for your posts! Unfortunately the rain continues. I can't wait to get into the arena and try some of these tips!!

Wow, that got long!!


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

*Update!*

I just got in from the barn, the rain has stopped! By nothing short of a miracle, the arena is basically dry, so I put the lungeline on Scout and gave him a little exercise. Between the rain and a now fully healed saddle sore, he hasn't been ridden in a while, but I may saddle up tomorrow. Scout lunged beautifully, he was relaxed and calm, holding his head nearly on the vertical (a smidge ahead). I warmed him up well at the walk and trot, lots of transitions. I cantered him once on the right lead (his good one), he took off immediately on cue and did two laps of good, even paced canter without hauling on the rope, then came down to a trot on cue. I turned him around and tried the left lead and he was up to his same old tricks. I brought him back down to a trot to regroup when he took the wrong lead as quickly as possible (he has a lot of go), and asked again. He took the wrong lead for half a stride before he swapped. I cued for a downshift and we regrouped again. The third time he took off on the correct lead and held it for about six strides! I immediately praised him and allowed him to stop and rest. I sent him out to the left again, did a lap of trot and cued for canter. Again, a little rough on the transition (two strides of fast trot), but he took the correct lead again! We did two more trot/canter transitions to the left before we cooled down. Hopefully I can ride tomorrow, and we'll see if Scout's lightbulb moment carries over, lol.
Thank you all so much for your input! I'll get another update up when we ride!


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## MaieuticManege (Mar 2, 2009)

Sounds like you are making good progress. As you said I wasn't recommending you throw your weight around. You have to stay balanced in order for him to make the transition, but your cues can help him. Also, you have to remember not to lean forward because he needs to keep his weight on his hindquarters when he canters, so if you are leaning forward than he has to compensate for you and then he isn't as balanced as he should be. 

Also, I would like to add that you do not need side reins. I personally disagree with them. In my experience it teaches the horse to lean on the bit (especially young horses) and they don't really learn how to give to pressure. In an old trainer's words "they carry themselves right because it hurts them less." He swears by side reins, however I realized that after I built softness in horses they became more unresponsive after using side reins. Also, I feel that they can start to discourage the natural arc of the horse while traveling in a circle. This is just my opinion and I felt I would share. 

Keep up the good work and keep practicing your transitions and rewarding the correct lead. Good luck and let us know how it is going.


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

*Update II!*

I rode Scout today, and he did really well considering his 2+ weeks of downtime (minor saddle sore, then came the Flood, lol). We lunged to warm up, and he took his leads correctly again, much like yesterday. When we had warmed up under saddle, I got him cantering his good direction, and although the transitions started out a little rough, they cleaned up a bit and were always correct leads. We had a little trouble the other direction, the problem way. I got a wrong lead the first time, I shut him down and circled him. The next two times I just got this demonic version of a trot. My arena is about 120x90 feet, so I cut it in half and tried a smaller circle to keep the bend in his frame, and I got a correct lead (yay!!). I ended our canter work for the day on that note (it's uber hot and humid here today. Yick.), and we moved on to some walk/trot serpentines and circle patterns to cool out. Yay progress!! We're probably showing on the 12th of July (I'm in 4-H, my last year, so I'm pretty obligated to do the showmanship at this show least, and the rail classes for fun and experience. This is probably the only showing we'll do this year). My plan is to get correct gaits and leads on the rail with calm. If my greenie does that, I may cry with happiness, lol. His first show, so we'll see...
Thanks again everyone!!


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## MaieuticManege (Mar 2, 2009)

Also, I would spend more time on his bad side. When I showed in 4-H my horse wouldn't pick up his left lead so we practiced transitions on that side a lot and did a lot of loping on that side so that he could get used to the feel and build up the correct muscles needed to hold that lead. It was a good thing too because that direction was the direction we traveled on the rail in both western pleasure and western horsemanship.

It worked for me, so I thought I would share it. Good luck at your 4-H show!


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

*Another Update!*

Hey!
Just wanted to do another update on Scout's canter!
We rode yesterday, and he was a bit full of himself (lots of transitions and circling to start out). I got him calm enough to not run like an idiot if I held the reins on the buckle, so I picked up the reins and we tried the cantering. He did beautifully! He took the correct lead every time. He was balanced enough to do a full lap and a half on his good direction (without dragging me to the gate at speed) and the equivalent of 2 laps in the bad direction. He's cantering well on the lunge, keeping up the gait for several laps in each direction on a loose line. He hasn't taken a wrong lead on the lunge in nearly 2 weeks!

We're showing a week from today, Scout's very first show, definitely with me, and probably ever. I'd rather just _show_ walk-trot with this little guy, but since it's 4-H and I'm over 12 I have to canter (Who knows why, what if your 18 and are a green rider in 4-H? OK, I won't rant...), so we'll just do it. My goal as of now is to have Scout walk and trot with rhythm and relaxation on the rail, take his left lead (the bad one, oh, I can't call it that anymore, really) correctly, and maintain the right lead in his classes.

There's a non 4-H show in early August that offers 12-18 and 18+ walk trot rail classes that I'm thinking of taking Scout to, weather permitting. Although, August is a ways away yet, and he's improving every day... 

Thanks again everyone for all the wonderful advice!


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## Jessabel (Mar 19, 2009)

We had a mare at my barn that absolutely refused to pick of the left lead, too. lol

Try starting him on a really small circle on the lunge line, so he's bent and he has to pick up the right lead. Then let him out into the normal circle if he picks it up. It worked with my TB, even though he's still a little stiffer on the left side. It's hard for them because it's like a person learning to write with their opposite hand.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

MaieuticManege said:


> Have you tried over exaggerating your body position when asking for the left lead? Open up your right leg (and move it slightly forward) to encourage him to move that way and move your left leg back some and have it come against his side.


I know this post is dead but I was bored and reading old posts.
This part really has me thinking.
We are talking about the LEFT lead here??
If you want the LEFT lead your ask with the RIGHT leg.
We are going counterclockwise around the ring?? Moving to our left along the rail. You move your RIGHT LEG back behind the girth to push the hunches towards the inside of the ring, you pull the RIGHT rein to move the forehand towards the outside of the ring and cluck to the horse to break into the lope at the same time. Move the LEFT leg forward openning that side up to allow the horse to escape in that direction.
By doing this you are burying the right leg and exposing the left leaving little option for the pony to pick the right lead.
With a little practice the amount of crabbing you do to bury a leg/lead become less and less.

Your directions are just the OPPOSITE of what you want for a left lead?????


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> I know this post is dead but I was bored and reading old posts.
> 
> If you want the LEFT lead your ask with the RIGHT leg.


Actually, no. The inside leg at the girth cues the transition. The outside leg is passive slightly behind the girth, simply there to prevent the hindquarter from falling out. 



> You move your RIGHT LEG back behind the girth to push the hunches towards the inside of the ring, you pull the RIGHT rein to move the forehand towards the outside of the ring and cluck to the horse to break into the lope at the same time.


No. You don't move the haunches or the shoulders anywhere for the transition. If you start moving either, then you make the horse crooked and thus the transition more difficult. The horse should be 'straight' when asking for the transition and should 'remain straight' during the transition.

You don't pull on any rein.



> Move the LEFT leg forward openning that side up to allow the horse to escape in that direction.
> By doing this you are burying the right leg and exposing the left leaving little option for the pony to pick the right lead.
> With a little practice the amount of crabbing you do to bury a leg/lead become less and less.


Inside leg stays at the girth and gives the aid for the up transition. The only thing you 'open' (or 'give') is the inside rein so the inside fore/inside shoulder is not blocked and thus the horse can jump forward into the lead once the outside hind begins the transition.


And this is why people have such a hard time teaching canter leads. They want to throw the horse off balance, make him crooked and all sorts of other things.

One must understand what's going on. The horse is going to have a weak lead because he's going to have a natural crookedness (moving with his haunches off to one side) because one of those hind legs that begins the depart just isn't going to want to bear the weight. The green horse is thus going to try and take the canter lead crooked and from the inside fore, rather than the outside hind and this is what gets them mixed up with their legs.

Before attempting to teach canter to a green horse, the horse should be relatively straight and supple and willing to bear equal weight on both hind legs. 

In the beginning, any canter lead is a good canter lead, work with what the horse gives you and praise the try. 

There are a number of exercises that can help set the horse up for the correct lead and if the horse is having troubles then you need to go back to the trot and work on gymnasticizing the horse and then lead into the canter with those exercises.

The thing I didn't like about what was going on here is that the OP was trying to make a deadline for a show. I am completely non-supportive of schedules and time frames and deadlines for horses. Puts too much pressure on horse and human and often times leads to steps being skipped, which ALWAYS catch up to you.

It's also quite normal for a horse to get the departs one day and not the next. They are not machines and neither are the people riding them.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

We are teaching leads to a novice horse. A horse that doesn't accept the left lead. In a few days of doing like I said the horse should be picking up that left lead. Later a simple movement of the leg indicates which lead you want. Take any green horse and I can pick the correct lead with little problems.
Google Al Dunning and argue with him


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Mercedes said:


> No. You don't move the haunches or the shoulders anywhere for the transition. If you start moving either, then you make the horse crooked and thus the transition more difficult. The horse should be 'straight' when asking for the transition and should 'remain straight' during the transition.
> 
> You don't pull on any rein.


Setting a horse up like I said puts him in a position where the unwanted lead is burried gives him little choice as to what lead to take. We ask for leads on a circle because the outside lead is harder while circling to pick up. By crabbing the horse we are setting the horse up to expose this left lead and bury the right lead.
Can you using your way pick any lead and in a few tries get the horse unto that lead?? I can.


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

Mercedes said:


> The thing I didn't like about what was going on here is that the OP was trying to make a deadline for a show. I am completely non-supportive of schedules and time frames and deadlines for horses. Puts too much pressure on horse and human and often times leads to steps being skipped, which ALWAYS catch up to you.


OK, defending myself. First off, I totally agree with you, Mercedes, 100%.

I am NOT trying to make a deadline for a show. I am in my last year of 4-H, and I am OBLIGATED to take my project horse (Scout) to this show only, my club's Roundup. If I had my druthers, I wouldn't be showing at a canter class anyway, but due to my age, I am also obligated to canter in ridden classes at 4-H shows. :? This doesn't make any sense to me either. I am sorry if I came across like I'm trying to make a deadline, but I am not at all skipping steps. If he canters at all tomorrow, awesome. I just rode Scout this morning, and we had beautiful, balanced canter departs on correct leads.

This "function" is not at all a "show" as I think it was understood on the post. It's all in fun, no pressure to have anything any way. The best way I can describe this thing is a gathering of my 4-H club members and families, and there are going to be some classes, some good food, and some horsin' around. I am treating all of my work with Scout as though there was no "show" at all, and allowing him to progress at his own pace, with no gadgets or anything else wacky to force him to progress at my pace.

I know that the system is wacky, and I hope I clarified my position and my expectations. My intent in asking for advice was not to aid me in meeting my deadline, but to get some ideas for how to deal with a "glitch" that I have never dealt with before on a green horse.


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

Scoutrider said:


> OK, defending myself.
> 
> I am NOT trying to make a deadline for a show. I am in my last year of 4-H, and I am OBLIGATED to take my project horse (Scout) to this show only, my club's Roundup.



Don't defend your actions. It's not important that I or anyone else understand your motives. It only matters that you know what they are. 

You are NOT obligated to do any such thing. If the horse isn't ready, he's not ready. That type of decision is what makes you a quality horseperson or not.

It's also entirely within your right to take the horse in the class and not canter if he doesn't feel right.

Best wishes!


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