# Good conformation?



## Jillianrose (Apr 29, 2017)

What do ya'll think about this horses conformation? 2.5 year old, 14.3hh thoroughbred cross filly. Thanks!









sorry, this is the best picture I could find.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Though I'm far from experienced, I'll give it a shot just to test myself:

Can't really assess the topline, but it appears as though the LS joint is well located and round, making the distance between ribs and pelvis (the weak part of the back) short. I can't see the withers, of course, which play an important role supporting the neck. The legs look straight, the rear feet seem to be pointing outwards a bit. I'd probably like to see more of an arch in the neck, and she seems a bit hammerheaded. Would I pick this horse? See, that's where my lack of experience comes down with a solid, "I don't know." Intuitively, she seems fine to me. There seems to be good balance and proportion overall.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I hope no one is riding her yet, she looks very immature.

You need pictures without the saddle. Especially a giant saddle and giant pad on a scrawny horse, we can barely see the horse!

As I said she is immature so not a fair age to critique but she is scrawny looking and I'm concerned about the way she is standing, she looks uncomfortable. I also hate her stifle, very scary how straight her back legs are, I'd be concerned about soundness issues. Especially if she's already been started under saddle, this one needs LOTS of time to grow and develop.

Front legs look wonky but may partially be due to how she is standing and from what can be seen she looks overall decent. Just the back legs and question of why she's standing like that are my concerns (and the riding thing of course). Not a fan of her head or expression but you don't ride those things.

Overall I think she is average at best and if you're looking to purchase would look elsewhere. I think she would be pretty with some tlc but some things don't change and I see future problems, if there aren't already.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

With the saddle covering most of her, it's hard to make an assessment that's of value, but I too will give it a shot. I hope whoever is riding such an immature small horse is the size of an elf, as she is not built to carry weight and at this age her growth plates are mostly all still open. 

I would note that her head is a bit large for her weak neck, she is standing camped out front and rear, she has a bandage of some kind on her far rear cannon, and she seems way too straight behind. If she was squared up, and unsaddled, it would be more clear whether her rump is too sloping, as it might be. Except for the neck, much could be the result of a badly posed photograph. She could also be a very different horse in a couple of years. For one thing the rest of her could catch up to those long legs. All that said, she is not a bad horse, has refinement and quality, and could turn out pretty nice.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I wonder, are you looking to buy this filly?

I agree that she looks very immature, physically. her hind end is weak. has a very short femur, overly vertical and thin gaskin, overly open stifle and hock angle. her hind hooves have underrun heels, evident by the overly upright angle of the coronet band, and hoof angles not matching pastern angles. 

Front legs are better. canon bone is relatively short. knees look ok, hooves also underrun but not as bad as hind. 

light shoulder, underdeveloped neck, but may look better in a couple of years. large , hammer head.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

Until "naked" to give a fair evaluation is not really possible.
To much anatomy is covered that needs seeing....
That said, I _don't_ like her stance.
She looks stretched out to me with front leg & hoof out front and hinds camped out....not a natural or normal stance for most horses.
Hopefully, she was not posed or positioned like this as it does her no justice.
Otherwise, she is a young, immature common headed horse..._sorry._

Get some better pictures to share and you will receive a much more defined critique of her...
:runninghorse2:....


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## Jillianrose (Apr 29, 2017)

Once I get pictures without a saddle I will post them. Would you buy this horse?


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Jillianrose said:


> Once I get pictures without a saddle I will post them. Would you buy this horse?


Another aspect of evaluating a horse for purchase is temperament. That's impossible to assess without personal interaction. So if the only thing you know about this horse is what we can see in the picture, I would say, "No, I would not buy this horse based on this information only."

We also cannot see how the horse moves, or the condition of its joints and tendons (range of movement, flexibility, etc.). (Its musculature is of secondary importance i.m.o. because, just as with people, that can be developed with a good exercise regime.) 

So if you get access to the horse, take some good conformation picture. Make sure the horse is squared off and standing on level, hard ground. Take pictures of the topline as well so one can see left-right symmetry. Take a video walking and trotting in a straight line, without tack.

Make sure the vet gives it a clean bill of health. 

Assess its temperament and make sure it's compatible with yours. Does it follow you readily on a lead line away from pasture mates and human handlers? Since it has a saddle on, does it do basic ground work for you willingly - yielding hind quarters, flexing, sending, longing? Can you touch the horse everywhere without getting resistance? Has it been desensitized to some basic stimuli, like a rustling bag or you moving your arms, etc.?

Will its training at the time of purchase be compatible with your ability to continue its training?

There is so much more than the skeletal structure to assess whether I would buy this horse.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

No, I would not buy this horse, based on that picture.
I see a horse that is way too immature, possibly being ridden, downhill, which can change, but with leg structure issues, which won't change.
Neck is somewhat ewe shaped, and head coarse, but it is the total leg structure, esp hind end that bothers me.
Perhaps better pictures, with the horse stood up square, no saddle, will create a better and more valid assessment


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

I wouldn't buy this horse, no. 

For me to buy so young a horse it would have to look full of promise, with no obvious conformation flaws. That is not this horse.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

tinyliny said:


> I agree that she looks very immature, physically. her hind end is weak. has a very short femur, overly vertical and thin gaskin, overly open stifle and hock angle. her hind hooves have underrun heels, evident by the overly upright angle of the coronet band, and hoof angles not matching pastern angles.
> 
> Front legs are better. canon bone is relatively short. knees look ok, hooves also underrun but not as bad as hind.
> 
> light shoulder, underdeveloped neck, but may look better in a couple of years. large , hammer head.


Do you mind if I asked a few follow-up questions, for my own edification?

I was under the impression that "conformation" only refers to things you are "stuck with" in a horse, which mostly pertains to skeletal structure (bones and joints). When you say that she is weak (light shoulder, underdeveloped neck), is that not something that can be fixed through exercise? Can heels and hoof angles not be influenced through a period of qualified farrier work? Might that not also impact the way she positions her legs? (She most likely puts her legs so the pressure on the soles of the hoof is uniform.) 

The things that you cannot fix (short cannon bones, hammer head, etc.), would those be deal breakers or price reducers? How much do these issues depend on what the horse will ultimately be asked to do?


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## Jillianrose (Apr 29, 2017)

What do you think?


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

I would probably pass.


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## Jillianrose (Apr 29, 2017)




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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Jillianrose said:


> What do you think?


I gotta take back what I said originally about the LS joint (it's quite far back), and the pelvic angle looks steep now. 
The new picture confirms a slight ewe neck and hammerhead. 
I can't be sure, but she almost looks a bit swaybacked: the long distance between withers and LS joint weakens the back. She'll probably have a hard time rounding her back to carry weight. That means she may be a smooth ride, but not very athletic.

Again, for what it's worth coming from me...


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## Jillianrose (Apr 29, 2017)

would she grow into her head and legs?


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## Jillianrose (Apr 29, 2017)

There are training methods to improve a slight ewe neck.
Do you think she could do some lower level jumping once she matures?


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## GMA100 (Apr 8, 2016)

Do you know if she is being ridden now? I could maybe see if she was a bit more matured for some very light riding, but she is very underdeveloped. Are they sure on the age also? She doesn't look like she's even two to me... 
About the jumping, it all depends on how developed she is and if she could physically do it. 
I would pass on her if I were you, there is plenty of nicer horses than this.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Jillianrose said:


> Do you think she could do some lower level jumping once she matures?


If you are not looking to buy a top-level competition prospect, and you respect the abilities of the horse with the intensity of its training program, there are a lot of conformation flaws that need not be deal breakers. But I cannot possibly give you actionable, reliable advice about that with my limited expertise - sorry.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

mmshiro said:


> Do you mind if I asked a few follow-up questions, for my own edification?
> 
> I was under the impression that "conformation" only refers to things you are "stuck with" in a horse, which mostly pertains to skeletal structure (bones and joints). When you say that she is weak (light shoulder, underdeveloped neck), is that not something that can be fixed through exercise? Can heels and hoof angles not be influenced through a period of qualified farrier work? Might that not also impact the way she positions her legs? (She most likely puts her legs so the pressure on the soles of the hoof is uniform.)
> 
> The things that you cannot fix (short cannon bones, hammer head, etc.), would those be deal breakers or price reducers? How much do these issues depend on what the horse will ultimately be asked to do?



I appreciate your point of view, and think that, in a way, you are correct; conformation is about the horse's inate skeletally based form.

I mention the hooves because while they may be changeable by good farriery, the state of the hoof now, and how bad farriery has made it, affect the tendons and ligaments and joints of the horse in enough ways to influence whether or not a person wants to buy said horse. badly balanced hooves, over time, can really do a number on a hrose's joints and ligaments and such, and so affect the long term rideability of the hrose.

so, when people ask for conformation crits, I usually include anything I see with reference to the hooves, if I think it is pertinent to overall soundness, possibly. also, for so-called "educational" purposes.

the way the horse stands IS odd, and while I said her front legs are better, I don't think they are great. there's something about it that isn't right, either.

her neck may muscle up and become less ewed, with correct riding. if, however, the horse IS that camped out, it will be hard to get the hrose to ride in the way that DOES cause the horse to be able to lift the base of the neck and thus develop the muscles that counter a ewed neck.

the hammar head comment is one of aesthetics. having a hammar head doesn't affect a horse's way of moving. if the throatlatch area is thick , then the hrose will have less mobility there, and be less able to flex there when requested by the rider.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

tinyliny said:


> I appreciate your point of view,...


That was very helpful...thanks!!


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

I would pass..

It is not a lot of one thing, to me it is a lot of many smaller things that when looked at as a whole say there is weakness in many areas, things that are undesirable to me.
Things that make the horse, for me.._.not_ a good fit.

Actually, the age part doesn't upset me so much as_ {don't slam me}_ they race 2 year old Thoroughbreds.
In fact this weekend is kind of a important race happening..
 As long as the "benchmarks" were achieved before certain training was done and accomplished.. _not happy but will consider..
_ 
I would _not_ especially look at a horse this young already heavy under saddle riding....
The horse is immature, has some leg and hoof issues and a back that concern me and their soundness in the future.
The horse could never take a bad step and be the very best mount ever or could be a walking time-bomb of issue after issue to happen...._there is no way of truly knowing._
If you seriously consider this mount I would be having a in-depth PPE done with x-rays, flexion tests as a minimum....from a very qualified lameness vet...a vet who can do some pretty good predicting from past years of hands-on experience...

As with any horse, you must first be realistic in your future wants and goals achieved when looking for a prospect to fill that need.
As a backyard trail horse...
As a show ring jumper...
As a upper-level dressage horse...
Or as a million jobs in between...only you know what it is you want the horse to be able to do for years with no soundness or health problems, or as few as possible and then tailor your search to those tasks.
Sadly, though again the picture presented does no justice to the horse as he is shown...
Based on again seeing "naked" that same stance that troubled me before and now more revealed,... 
I would pass him by.

The best of luck in what ever you decide....
:runninghorse2:....


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## Jillianrose (Apr 29, 2017)

Thank you all for your input. I have decided not to buy her. When I first saw her for sale add, my HUGE want for a horse kinda overwhelmed my common sense. I hope that I will stick to my resolution, and wait for the perfect horse, and that when I've found him, he will truly be perfect for me.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

oh, I forgot to mention . . . . there IS no perfect horse.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Jillianrose said:


> Once I get pictures without a saddle I will post them. Would you buy this horse?


No and honestly from what I can see of her I don't need to see anymore. Those hind legs alone and the way she is standing are a deal breaker.

And if actually being in work under all the circumstances another deal breaker.

From that picture alone, while I'll be the first to say it's not flattering I would never consider this horse and likely even if I had a personal attachment to her would still turn her down and that's saying something for me.

Even if everything else is perfect (which I suspect is not, I can guess at several other things) and the way she is standing is just a horrible coincidence (again suspect not) the things I can see like her hind leg will not change no matter what. I have never seen a horse with a leg like that not have issues. Everything else is just icing on the cake.

One glance tells me I don't even need to consider other more flattering pictures, and I'm all for giving the benefit of a doubt!

ETA- whelp I see you did get more flattering pictures, sure enough not only are the same issues present but new ones are revealed. Unfortunately this mare is not even average conformation wise but well below it as I suspected and many of her weaknesses are soundness issues. There are plenty of nice horses for sale, look at those. I know she is still growing but even an ugly duckling will only change so much.


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## Jillianrose (Apr 29, 2017)

tinyliny said:


> oh, I forgot to mention . . . . there IS no perfect horse.


What I meant and said, was perfect for me. I know that there is no perfect horse, but a horse can be perfect for a certain person; meaning that no matter how steep the mountain, they always reach the top. They may not be the same, but they still make it.


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## Jillianrose (Apr 29, 2017)

I found another picture, Is this one any better?


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## Jillianrose (Apr 29, 2017)




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## Jillianrose (Apr 29, 2017)




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## Jillianrose (Apr 29, 2017)

It's the same horse, but she looks completely different. She looks much more like a quarter horse in these photos(she is an appendix).


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

I'd still strongly suggest you wait at least a couple of years before buying, as you were asking about in the other thread! I know how tempting it is when you're browsing horse ads, but I'll reiterate: having been in your position, and bought at that time, it was a huge mistake. I especially think looking at horses this young right now could be a real disaster. Take those lessons! Do a part-board! It's as good as owning without the long-term commitment if things don't work out, and with far far less expense! You get all the benefits of ownership but still have room to grow and learn and change things up when you need to.


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## Jillianrose (Apr 29, 2017)

SteadyOn said:


> I'd still strongly suggest you wait at least a couple of years before buying, as you were asking about in the other thread! I know how tempting it is when you're browsing horse ads, but I'll reiterate: having been in your position, and bought at that time, it was a huge mistake. I especially think looking at horses this young right now could be a real disaster. Take those lessons! Do a part-board! It's as good as owning without the long-term commitment if things don't work out, and with far far less expense! You get all the benefits of ownership but still have room to grow and learn and change things up when you need to.


Thank you SteadyOn. I had decided to wait, but then she posted more pictures, and I went a little crazy lol. I found a working student position at a barn, and I'm hoping and praying that it works out. 

I would still like to know if ya'lls opinion was still the same as far as her confirmation goes, just for educational purposes.


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

Jillianrose said:


> Thank you SteadyOn. I had decided to wait, but then she posted more pictures, and I went a little crazy lol. I found a working student position at a barn, and I'm hoping and praying that it works out.
> 
> I would still like to know if ya'lls opinion was still the same as far as her confirmation goes, just for educational purposes.


No problem! There will be lots and lots and lots and LOTS of horses in your future for you to fall in love with.  It's a little like dating -- the right one will come along when you're ready, and there's no need to hurry. Don't settle for the first one that catches your eye!


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## Jillianrose (Apr 29, 2017)

SteadyOn said:


> No problem! There will be lots and lots and lots and LOTS of horses in your future for you to fall in love with.  It's a little like dating -- the right one will come along when you're ready, and there's no need to hurry. Don't settle for the first one that catches your eye!


Don't worry! She's not the first one to catch my eye!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

mmshiro said:


> I was under the impression that "conformation" only refers to things you are "stuck with" in a horse, which mostly pertains to skeletal structure (bones and joints). When you say that she is weak (light shoulder, underdeveloped neck), is that not something that can be fixed through exercise? Can heels and hoof angles not be influenced through a period of qualified farrier work?


Coming into this one late, only got as far as this reply/question. Very pertinent IMO, and I think it depends, who you talk to & their amount of knowledge, as to the answer! 

Generally speaking, it seems people think of 'conformation' as unchangeable, innate traits. BUT there is much that is judged as 'conformation', even in vet texts & the likes, that is not innate, but due to injury, lack of development, hoof imbalance, etc, etc. (see my comments on 'turned out' legs in the 'judge this 7mo foal' thread for eg).

And then, even among those that understand the above differences very well, there are those 'experts' who say 'conformation is but a moment in time' and believe that even much that is 'innate' conformation is changeable. 

As bone remodelling(via osteoplasts & osteoclasts) is absolutely a fact, this is entirely plausible IMO. And I have seen certain minor 'conformation faults' improved, such as for eg, splinting slightly skewed bones, realigning coffin bones, etc. But I've never seen any major changes, and wonder about *joint* changes, as in to cartilage & ligaments etc.


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## Tlugger (Feb 15, 2017)

Hi Jillianrose I did agree with Tinyliny on most of everything. Here's my take on it. This horse has had poor nutrition at best, is way way below Average on conformation...very thin scrawny neck, bold head, nothing in the hind quarters. Its sounds as if you've almost made up your mind to get this horse. Here's what I would say. If you weren't showing this horse or breeding this horse down the road, and all you wanted was just a plain ole trail horse, and your heart is set on this horse you could buy here if she's below $1000. If you want to breed her down the road when she's old enough, you know like around 8ish..I would not buy her, nor if you want to compete in shows...But if your looking for great information, she doesn't have it..But every horse needs a good home, it would depend what you want her for....


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## bellagris (Dec 6, 2010)

I'm not a conformation expert and know mostly about gaited horses ...but I'm not thrilled with the way her neck comes out of her withers and chest, can't see the top line do can't say for sure, but her neck suggests to me that she runs downhill a bit. Still, she's 2, gangly and growing and could use 70 lbs...but I don't see any huge issues


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## bellagris (Dec 6, 2010)

Whoops..hit enter.

If it were me, I would pass -but I show too and so conformation needs to be great. Nothing says "I'm going to break down" may make a very good trail horse. I always think if you're buying, buy right because you have the option to be picky. If you breed and get something mediocre then there is a responsibility to that horse by the breeder, but as a buyer I think you could probably find something with a better build.


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## DanteDressageNerd (Mar 12, 2015)

From a learning perspective and approach

This is not a horse I'd ever choose 

For dressage the weak hind end, straight stifle and gaskin, weakly built hind end built out behind (stifle positioned in back position) and ewe neck. Ewe necks can be made to use themselves correctly but it depends and is a long, hard process to develop correctly. The straightness of the stifle paired with a straight gaskin and hind end built behind it will make it unable to collect well (in the dressage sense of taking weight behind, elevation in the shoulder and neck) and someone might make it collect some but trying to push this horse to really use it's hind end and take weight behind will make it lame or have stifle issues long term, especially as more laterals are introduced. She also has a pretty long space between her hip and rib cage (long torso) which I am not a fan of. Long torsos are more laterally flexible but it makes collection more difficult. 

For jumping or eventing I still wouldn't choose this horse because of the weak structure of the hind end (Stifle built out behind the hip being smaller than the shoulder). Being down and somewhat long in the pasterns. Being as straight as she is the gaskin would worry me about soundness with heavy use. For a jumper or eventer I really don't like a horse with low and long pasterns it just strains the ligaments and tendons in front because they over stretch it landing off a jump and doing it over and over again wears them down. Think of pasterns as shock absorbers, if they're short and upright it's a more direct impact that doesn't take as much impact out so it's direct pressure but too long and too low over stretches the ligaments and tendons each stride on impact. Some horse may have this and never have a problem (depending on use) but it will always be more prone to injury, especially as a jumper or event horse which is very demanding on a horse's body and for performance if you find something with ability but it can't stay sound doing it than talent is meaningless. Same with even if you found the most talented horse int he world, it doesn't mean a thing if it has no desire to do it. 

Yes she is 2 1/2 and yes things will change and you can develop a better topline but down the road I'd stay away from young horses for a long time. You really don't know what you have until the horse is more mature and developed mentally and physically and if you don't have a lot of experience with young horses I always tell people to leave the youngsters to professionals because it takes a lot of skill and expertise to get a young horse going well, especially if you have high ambitions as a dressage rider, jumper or eventer.


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