# "Tweens" in the barn?



## sillyhorses (Sep 2, 2011)

At our farm we are very lucky and blessed to have a crew of horse owners who are great! We have a few families that have "tween" girls, and while we have a "riders under 18 must have immediate adult/parental supervision" rule, there are a few girls who we allow to come, as long as we are not busy, and ride. 

The girls are between 11 and 13 and otherwise have pretty impeccable manners. However, to my way of thinking, even if they have butts like glue, there is a lot of wisdom regarding horses and training that is to be had in and amongst that age bracket. While we typically let the girls "do their thing", we have repeatedly asked a certain young lady to not practice certain "corrective measures" with her horse and even verbally offered suggestions. I get the feeling it goes in one ear and out the other, although I think perhaps (hopefully), most recently, it has maybe sunk in? This was after a demo with her mother present. We will see, the opportunity to know for certain has not come up yet. I'm not "supervising" in the capacity of trainer or instructor, but rather just offering adult supervision while they ride... I only speak up if I see a kid hanging off their horse at unnatural angles or when safety or safety and poor training techniques (combined) are present. 

I am a riding instructor... just not these kids' "direct" instructor. I'm getting a bit frustrated to the extent that I feel like saying "I'm sorry, you are no longer able to come without your parents"... although I don't really want to. The kids are generally pretty respectful, but it is clear in their blank facial expressions that they think I'm full of crap if I say things like "What are you trying to accomplish with that maneuver?" I've also discussed and thoughtfully explained and demoed how to more effectively communicate with their horses with parents and their children. 

Would it seem condescending to the parents of these kids if I say "Look, I really enjoy allowing your child the opportunity to ride on days when you can't be here, however we need to establish some new "rules"." I'd then spell out that any "tween sitting" will need to be in the capacity of "teacher and student" and if they don't like that, then the kids can only come with their parents? I'm not interested in defending my instructing techniques to them, and I guess I also feel as though they take for granted the opportunity they have to spend "quality" horse time because of me. We've also been doing this for free, and I've considered tossing in that the kid has to clean stalls to "earn" their horsey time without their parents... I think that might help them to NOT take it for granted. Thoughts? I'm a bit perplexed. :neutral: I really try to be diplomatic and yet frank about things,. In this situation I am aware that it has gotten to this point because of a lack of "rules" directly relating to this situation, just our general barn rules.


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## cakemom (Jul 4, 2010)

At our barn yes, the child who comes out, leaser, owner or not, must clean the stall of the horse their butt is on. Our trainer is also the barn owner, you don't follow her rules, you get off. If you are their instructor, they listen to you, period, Jo matter if you are being paid or not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BarrelracingArabian (Mar 31, 2010)

At my barn if you lease or want to show we have a rule that you must earn a certain amount of points to go to said show,trail ride(off property) or whatever. This includes cleaning waters,feeding, cleaning stalls, running certain horses(the less used ones as long as they know enough to turn them out), and doing little chores around the ranch. My BO has a notebook that she marks down what we did that day and gives points depending on the job. It works fairly well I think and teaches them what taking care of multiple horses is really like hah.


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## sillyhorses (Sep 2, 2011)

cakemom said:


> At our barn yes, the child who comes out, leaser, owner or not, *must clean the stall of the horse their butt is on*. Our trainer is also the barn owner, *you don't follow her rules, you get off*. If you are their instructor, they listen to you, period, Jo matter if you are being paid or not.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good idea! :lol: Thanks... I guess I feel so "uh oh, this sucks" about the situation because normally I am very up front and didn't really foresee a problem with these children, even as minor of one as there is. I didn't initially establish a "without your parents, to you I am instructor and you must listen" rule, and I'm stuck on how to establish one now without offending the people. I'm probably being oversensitive, but then again I'm always acutely aware of how "horse people" can be, haha, and I don't want to bruise egos, which is what I think has already happened with this little girl when I marched out and said "Look, that isn't safe and while you are under my supervision, safety is paramount."


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

Reading your post your not coming across very well, but it sounds like your butting in, You say your not a trainer/instructor, but you giving instructions and upset they're not listening. Are you liable in someway for injury ? I know emotion and inflection doesnt translate well into type so maybe I am getting the wrong impression from your post but it sounds like you may need to mind your own business. If you let em come without parents, and the parents let em, then that's their issue.


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## BarrelracingArabian (Mar 31, 2010)

*I am a riding instructor... just not these kids' "direct" instructor
*
she actually did say she was an instructor ..just saying :]


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## sillyhorses (Sep 2, 2011)

Joe4d said:


> Reading your post your not coming across very well, but it sounds like your butting in, You say your not a trainer/instructor, but you giving instructions and upset they're not listening. Are you liable in someway for injury ? I know emotion and inflection doesnt translate well into type so maybe I am getting the wrong impression from your post but it sounds like you may need to mind your own business.


I _am_ an instructor. I said that directly in the first post. I also said that I am not this child's "instructor" under normal circumstances. We allow her to bring in an outside instructor on occassion... she generally operates without one. I understand what you are saying, however. The problem is that as the barn owner, I AM liable, particularly when the child is under _my _supervision. I feel as though I should have established that while they are under my care, I am not simply "supervision", but also their "part time" instructor, like it or not. Due to the fact that I did not do that to begin with, of course I come across as "butting in"... however, at 12 years old, there is a lot to be learned. I didn't foresee this problem because the child wasn't having behavioral issues with her horse (that are exacerbated by the child's way of riding) at the time we started to allow her to come out under our supervision. Now I'm trying to figure out how to diplomatically inform them that unless the child is able to regard me as instructor in absence of her parents, the child is not allowed here without them. I hope that clarifies the misunderstanding from my original post :/


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

Joe4d said:


> it sounds like you may need to mind your own business. If you let em come without parents, and the parents let em, then that's their issue.


The first time a child does something dangerous (to herself or the horse) and gets hurt, there will be a parent ready to sue because an instructor (or at least an adult) was there and did nothing to prevent it.

It is absurd to think that any responsible adult should not step in when they see a situation that could cause harm.

A child that is not listening or has an attitude should be disciplined in some way concerning their privilege at the barn - IMO. Remember it is a privilege not a right for them to be there without their parents.


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## sillyhorses (Sep 2, 2011)

I should also express that even though I want to insist that the child regard me as "instructor" in the absence of parents, I want it to be a fun learning experience. At this point, I don't think that is possible because, like I said... there were no behavioral issues present in the horse at the time we agreed to allow the child to come to barn without parents. We didn't establish rules. The child *probably does* regard me as "butting in" because this wasn't established... which is what I think the "blank stare" thing this (otherwise) polite child shows is all about. So, while I think your initial statement that I AM butting in is off the mark, it is a good point in the grander scheme of things, so thank you! Now... how do I establish these rules? As a horse owner, how would you like to be approached about a "rule change" as it relates to you?


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

As a BO, I would sent out (as well as post) the new rules. If you have barn meeting, then that may be a good place to bring them up. Doing it that way, you are not targeting anyone in particular.


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## sillyhorses (Sep 2, 2011)

iridehorses said:


> As a BO, I would sent out (as well as post) the new rules. If you have barn meeting, then that may be a good place to bring them up. Doing it that way, you are not targeting anyone in particular.


That is a great idea! The only problem is that we don't really have "barn meetings", so it would probably be obvious who the targeted audience is? Do you suppose that approaching them from the perspective that "The horse has developed behavioral issues that make riding more dangerous than it was prior to our arrangements... as such, I find it necessary to revise our original agreement" is reasonable? I always approach them when they don't have an audience, and when I have corrected the child, it is when she has been in the arena without other riders present (if that is relevant?). I do that so I don't embarrass them...


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

I saw that the OP was an instructor but she said she wasnt the instructor of the rider in question.
As an owner you are free to set whatever rules you want, as long as you arnt violating any current lease/board agreements. The new rules can then take effect with renewals. I wouldnt think, a "No minors without parents, or guardian appointed in writing present" would be out of line, as you see changing rules for certain people are casueing problems.


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## Red Gate Farm (Aug 28, 2011)

How about something along the lines,

"Now that we've had x number of months of me supervising the young adults riding without their parents being there, I've had time to observe and evaluate the situation. Keeping safety and good horsemanship in mind, here are the following amendments (or Rules if you had no rules before) so that everyone's riding time is educational and enjoyable."

Then state your rules.


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## sillyhorses (Sep 2, 2011)

Red Gate Farm said:


> How about something along the lines,
> 
> "Now that we've had x number of months of me supervising the young adults riding without their parents being there, I've had time to observe and evaluate the situation. Keeping safety and good horsemanship in mind, here are the following amendments (or Rules if you had no rules before) so that everyone's riding time is educational and enjoyable."
> 
> Then state your rules.


Thanks! I think that is an honest, non confrontational approach... I think that is what I will try. I spent time this morning writing some rules and an additional liability waiver as it relates directly to the situation. Will keep you posted...the people at our farm are very nice and in our encounters thus far are very reasonable. It is of utmost importance to me to approach this (and all potential "issues"for that matter) in a manner that is thoughtful and respectful, and nonconfrontational. When frustrated, I think it is helpful to get a few different perspectives! Thanks!


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## Mike_User (Oct 24, 2006)

iridehorses said:


> The first time a child does something dangerous (to herself or the horse) and gets hurt, there will be a parent ready to sue because an instructor (or at least an adult) was there and did nothing to prevent it.


I was about to post the same when I read this. You sound very concerned about making anyone feel bad by approaching them about this, sillyhorses, but you have to consider that it's very likely a parent wouldn't hesitate to sue you the moment their child is seriously hurt.

I think Red Gate Farm's suggestion is great, and would think these kids' parents would be very receptive to it so long as you couch your approach in terms of your interest in their children's welfare.


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## nicole25 (Jun 24, 2011)

Does everyone that rides at your property sign a waiver??


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## Red Gate Farm (Aug 28, 2011)

I'm wondering how the talk about the rules went?


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## sillyhorses (Sep 2, 2011)

Hey everyone! Sorry for the delay in an update, we've been pretty busy. 

Since the school year has begun, the youth in the barn have not been coming out without parents. I don't anticipate they will be, at least until a school holiday or such. It has given me some time to make some updates to our board contracts, and at the end of the actual boarding contract is a request/waiver for barn owner supervising the child's activities. 

We have some pretty tight contracts and waivers here at our farm, and always have. We had an attorney help us get our boarding contracts, waivers and other things written up and are confident in them. We just had not really anticipated problems with supervising other people's children, mainly because, for the most part, we have not offered/allowed it. I mean, except for lesson students who come here under our sole discretion to be supervised and guided.

I did speak with the child and parents about being a stickler for safety, as well as a few other points of "tension". I even took the time to describe in detail the accident I foresaw (and that this young lady had a luckily unharmed taste of). I guess I tend to be a pretty straightforward person... almost to the point of being blunt. I find that it works well in our business to establish rules and expectations up front, in order to kind of "nix" problems before they occur. However, it only helps in instances where a potential problem is foreseen. :/ And in some instances, such as this one, where there was no true expectation set, being blunt could be more of an insult than expectation setting, you know? 

Thanks again! I will update when I sit down with ALL of our boarders with our updated contracts and let you know how it rolls!


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## caseymyhorserocks (Apr 5, 2010)

*EDIT! Sorry, just saw your post  but posting this anyways!!*
I would confront the parent, preferably with the child. Say, I would like you (adressing the parent) to be out with your child whenever he\she is here. Are these horses yours? Im a little confused on whether you are meaning you are letting them come out and ride without supervision or if you are letting them ride your horses. Also it may be a good idea to tell the parent\kid that 'you need to be taking lessons with a good instructor, whether it be me or someone else, because I want you to be safe riding your horse.' If it is your horse, you *need* to say that they have to take lessons to be able to ride this horse because you want you and the horse to be safe. Good luck ;-)


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## diggerchick (Nov 8, 2011)

The "tweens" at the barn where I work are very good! They clean up after their horses and themselves, never act in a bad way, always respect others, and listen and abide by all the rules...we do have the barn rules if under 18 you must be accompanied by an adult, but I mean as bad as it sounds there is some exceptions as a couple of our barn hands are under 18..and some of our boarders are 16 and drive themselves out and do their lessons or hack or whatever.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Haylee (Feb 2, 2011)

Im 17, and I have my horse boarded at a stable. I drive myself, take care of my horse myself, and very rarely is their anyone out their to "watch" me. When I was 13 I was being dropped off at stables to ride alone as well. I think as long as the kid isn't stupid, knows horses and how to respect others and their animals, and the parents aren't stupid, and sign a waver it shouldn't be a big deal. I've never had problems anywhere.


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## diggerchick (Nov 8, 2011)

To me its not the persons age, its the persons personality and how they are that matter...all individual exceptions really.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sillyhorses (Sep 2, 2011)

Update from my end: several parents are singing praises about their children having to earn their ride time when riding without them, as opposed to the parents paying for the supervision services. Actually, one father said that "earning" ride time is teaching his child responsibility, and makes the extra trip to our farm totally worth it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## catsandhorses (Aug 6, 2011)

Yes, you are the BO, and you are a trainer, but you are not THEIR trainer. Your role as BO is to provide a safe place for both adults and tweens to ride. Your role as BO does NOT extend to providing instruction unless you are specifically hired to do so. 

Certainly if you witness unsafe behavior you should intervene immediately. COnsider, however, that safe practices are subjective. It almost sounds as if you frequently disagree with the way a student is practicing their riding. Whether or not you know more than they do, they are apparently not open to your input; or perhaps they don't understand your method of instructing. Either way, right now your approach is ineffective I suspect this because you are perceived as a meddling BO rather than a respected instructor. Right or wrong, perception is everything. Perhaps a more effective method would be to talk to their instructor directly about what you are witnessing, and leave it to the instructor to enforce proper riding.

I think you need to decide ultimately what you hope to accomplish. If you want to provide a safe riding environment then work WITH the riders' instructors to make that happen and have the instructor enforce proper behaviors that should be followed through in their practice outside of lessons. 

If you want to be a BO who is permitted to dictate how all her boarders ride under the premise of "safety" then you are going to face an uphill battle all the way. Again, "safety" in horse riding is subjective. No one wants to be continuously corrected by someone who's input is unsolicited - eventually they'll tune you out completely. That said, if you want to be the "dictator" then you'll have to be a bit more clear with your clients that your "instruction" must be obeyed regardless of whether or not it is solicited or necessarily warranted.

Ultimately if you pick and choose your battles, then when someone is doing something that poses an immediate and potentially serious threat they will be more likely to listen to your out-of-the-blue command to stop the behavior immediately. If you constantly nit pick at them, leaving them feeling like they are merely on the receiving end of your unsolicited "instruction" for the zillionth time, you will be ignored. 

Hope this perspective helps.


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## sillyhorses (Sep 2, 2011)

Thank you for your input, catsandhorses. I'm not sure where you get the idea that I "frequently disagree with the way a student is practicing", however. The particular child was at my farm under my supervision, which I dont think you realize, considering that you make no mention of this on your response. 4x over the course of two months, I spoke to the child about her "maneuver”, one of those instances was when the parent was here and asked my assistance for her daughter, whose horse has several dangerous habits, including rearing. The last time I spoke with the daughter about the particular "unsafe"thing she was doing was because, under my supervision, she was doing things that were directly causing the horse to rear. At that point I reminded the child that while she was here without parental supervision she needed to not do that, and that, since this was the 4th time I requested she not do it, if that behavior continue, she simply would only be able to come out when the parents are here to supervise. I'm not having a child flip their horse on
my watch.

To be honest, other than having to remind a child to not ride their pony in the barn aisle to get outside, I let people do their thing. We have barn rules, and those are the only other things I chase a person down for, haha... Like "hey, no flip flops at the stable. You might not mind losing a toe, but I mind having to clean up the mess..." Hedge
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

sillyhorses said:


> Update from my end: several parents are singing praises about their children having to earn their ride time when riding without them, as opposed to the parents paying for the supervision services. Actually, one father said that "earning" ride time is teaching his child responsibility, and makes the extra trip to our farm totally worth it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sounds like a win-win situation, silly. Glad you could figure out a solution.


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## sillyhorses (Sep 2, 2011)

Hedge was supposed to be "haha". Oops. Also, I wanted to clarify that I would only say something to the child after a near-disaster and that it was always sking her to not do the same maneuver. 2 of the 4 times I spoke up was when the maneuver caused exactly what I used as "examples"to get my point across (i.e. The horse fell while the child was riding, then the next time the horse reared...) The first time I spoke up was when I foresaw a problem (the childs parent at that point had been asking for my advice) the next time the parent asked for my direct assistance and the last two were after the child nearly had a bad accident...all because of the "maneuver".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## catsandhorses (Aug 6, 2011)

sillyhorses said:


> Hedge was supposed to be "haha". Oops. Also, I wanted to clarify that I would only say something to the child after a near-disaster and that it was always sking her to not do the same maneuver. 2 of the 4 times I spoke up was when the maneuver caused exactly what I used as "examples"to get my point across (i.e. The horse fell while the child was riding, then the next time the horse reared...) The first time I spoke up was when I foresaw a problem (the childs parent at that point had been asking for my advice) the next time the parent asked for my direct assistance and the last two were after the child nearly had a bad accident...all because of the "maneuver".
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you for the follow up explanation. I understand now that this was isolated to a single teen - apologies if I missed that in the OP! Hopefully the parents will reinforce what advice you have given. It boggles my mind how anyone could repeatedly ignore advice on something that could cause a horse to fall. Glad to hear from your update you found a solution!


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