# Good all-around bit for trails?



## existentialpony (Dec 4, 2012)

Hi all!

I had my new gelding out on the trails today and while he's wonderful, we were riding with a friend and I found out that he *hates* to have distance put between him and a trail buddy! If we were cantering out front, I had complete control of him and could collect him up into a comfy canter, but if we were behind (especially when I was asking him to trot while friend cantered ahead so he wouldn't overexert himself-- he's a little out of shape) I had to one-rein stop him several times and he didn't learn no matter how many times we'd go through the exercise. (eg. he picks up canter, I ask him to trot, he ignores, I pull his head around, he slows/stops, I give him his head back, he goes to a canter about half of the time)

I have him in a french link snaffle. I don't like the fact that I can't even phase him with rein contact when he has his mind made up. I've also noticed in the arena too, he gives me a tough time paying attention to the bit whereas when I tried him before buying, he was in a curb and due to the leverage, he was super attentive and sensitive to contact.

I don't want to go to a curb, but can someone recommend a good bit that (1) I can use for schooling and trails that might make him pay a little more attention, but (2) won't make him hard-mouthed?

PS-- we spent all yesterday working on downward gait transitions, so the fact that he ignored my down cues today was a big problemo.


----------



## BBBCrone (Jan 28, 2012)

I'm not so sure I'd change bits yet. You've only had him a couple of days, right? Some of this is excessive energy, some of it is his Arabian coming out with the "go go go" attitude.

I'd probably begin to approach this in a different way such as when he does this, he gets to work. Pick a couple of trees to figure 8 around until he pulls himself down into a walk/easy trot. If a hill is close, work him up and down that. Hopefully your friend will be patient and understand your boy must do as you ask always no matter what her horse is doing.

Of course this is just IMO and how I'd approach it first before changing equipment


----------



## existentialpony (Dec 4, 2012)

BBBCrone said:


> I'm not so sure I'd change bits yet. You've only had him a couple of days, right? Some of this is excessive energy, some of it is his Arabian coming out with the "go go go" attitude.
> 
> I'd probably begin to approach this in a different way such as when he does this, he gets to work. Pick a couple of trees to figure 8 around until he pulls himself down into a walk/easy trot. If a hill is close, work him up and down that. Hopefully your friend will be patient and understand your boy must do as you ask always no matter what her horse is doing.
> 
> Of course this is just IMO and how I'd approach it first before changing equipment


Thanks BBB!  I know you've been keeping track of my new journey on here... hehe. I should say, the french link snaffle is entirely new to him (tried it at the owner's barn the day before I bought him) and in the arena, we've been working exactly as you mentioned-- not listening = more work! The only issue is that on the trails, we are either surrounded by cacti/brush or in the river washes, there isn't a lot of room to work him around. In a few stretches that were wide enough, I would circle him and it would work... until we started moving forward again.  And like I said, this is only a problem when someone else is out front-- he is okay when we're alone or in front. In general, though, we have had issues with listening to downward transition cues which is why I was working on them in the arena.

I do think that as our communication improves, this will get better. However I feel like he pays more attention to munching on the bit link (he does this CONSTANTLY-- he will literally take the bit out of my hands just to chew on it, the dork! haha) than he does to me.


----------



## BBBCrone (Jan 28, 2012)

Yes ma'am I definitely have been keeping track .. I think he's gorgeous!

Okay I see what you are saying, I misunderstood your first post I think. I'll bow out of it here then because I'm no expert on bits at all.


----------



## existentialpony (Dec 4, 2012)

Thanks BBB! Your input is always helpful either way. 

Any thoughts on just switching to a plain single-joint snaffle? Anyone? :3


----------



## Wallaby (Jul 13, 2008)

This may not apply at all (and the first thing I would do is to really work with him in a contained environment, getting him truly listening to you, etc) but when my mare started the "LOLz, I'm going to bolt unexpectedly with you [or refuse to stop, or dance around, you know the drill] and since you have a gentle bit in my mouth=HAH."-thing, after I worked with her a bunch in an arena and saw improvement - until the next time something set her off, I put her in a pelham.

I got one with a gentle mouthpiece, one that I knew she already enjoyed, and worked with her in it. 

It turned out that after I displayed my new "magical" power a few times, the bolting disappeared completely. I would ride, as normal, on the snaffle rein but have the curb rein in my hands, ready to use, if the opportunity presented itself. As soon as she'd try to take off, I would just crank on that curb rein and shut her down immediately. Since I was not relying on the curb rein for more than just a few shut-downs, she came to the conclusion that I just now have this "power" indefinitely. Now, there's no question of her bolting because, even though I've switched her back to a snaffle, she still thinks I have curb power. I do sometimes put her in the pelham again, just for a little reminder ride, but it's extremely rare that I actually have to use the curb rein. I think I initially used it all of twice before she figured out that I was on to her game. 

However, in her case she fully knew that what she was doing was wrong...she just knew I had no power to stop her. 

In your case, I would focus on just walking out on the trails and get him fully under control at all gaits in the arena (if you can't reliably bring him down a gait in the arena, imho, he's out of control) THEN, and only then, try doing more on the trails.

I thiiink what I found with my girl (she had very similar issues initially) was that vocal cues have a lot more power with her than physical ones. When she's out there running and I've just let her go for it, I could pull on the reins all day and she would not care. However, if I say "LACEY! Ahh-ahh-ah! Easy!" (plus, sometimes, a mild slap on the neck to get her listening to me if she's really into it), she'll slow up, even with zero rein cues. It's something to try. 

I would try to stick with the bit you're using and just school him more more more. I don't think trying a single jointed snaffle would hurt but don't fall down the "little harsher, little harsher, little harsher" pit. 
Good luck! It's hard! These competitive horses! haha


----------



## existentialpony (Dec 4, 2012)

Thank you so much-- your reply helps a lot. I, too, am very vocal when it comes to riding :lol: and will definitely try to be more definitive with my whoa!

You know, this horse has showed for years and years in western pleasure, hunt flat, etc... I know that he knows his training, but we just don't seem to have a full repertoire yet. I don't even think it's him taking advantage and then going "oh, okay" because there's never an "oh, okay" realization when I stop him from getting away with things. All of this makes me think that switching him into this super gentle bit + new owner = no respect. Does that sound right to you? Or just me making excuses? haha!

I didn't think of a pelham and keeping the curb rein as a "backup." It's an interesting idea.

I guess I'm a little frustrated that a horse who is clearly well trained and intelligent just isn't listening to my cues. Since switching bits, he has the laziest stops, the kind of "whoa!" followed by step...step...... step.... okay, stopped. Even when I'm giving pre-signals and literally drop my weight into the saddle and "stop riding," paired with breathing out and a verbal "ho." Or my personal favorite-- if he makes me ask "ho" twice, I one-rein stop to show him I mean business. Then after I release the one-rein stop, he moves forward again even though I haven't given a command and we enter a loop of stop-and-go until he finally stands still. Only yesterday after tons of repetition were we having nice downward transitions and stops.

To be fair, I've been riding this horse for about a week, and I know that these things take time. But I feel like a good stop is the most important thing on a horse, and for whatever reason he just won't give it to me in this bit.


----------



## smguidotti (Jul 31, 2012)

Your arab sounds exactly like my arab. But at least you know the history of your boy - my girl is a rescue . . . and I am only commenting because we seem to have like horses. 

But anyway, in my opinion, anyone feel free to disagree, you should probably work in the arena again at the walk asking him to do things you know he can do and build his confidence. To me it sounds like there are some gaps in his training/understanding -- if he showed WP (no offense to anyone) his previous owners probably rushed too strong of a bit in his mouth to "fix" his behavioral issues and/or his head set -- that "rounded" neck that is actually not true collection at all...

He sounds confused to me. Honestly. And good for you for avoiding a bit with more leverage -- he doesn't need it. Why do you need a leverage bit when he doesn't seem to understand _why_ he is being asked to collect. 

I also disagree with whoever wrote that if the horse is not listening then you need to work him more. This may only reinforce behavior you don't want. Hypothetically, if he is confused, forcing him to do that which confuses him will only frustrate him more and adding a bit that forces him to round his neck/"collect" will also teach him to carry himself with his back hollowed. You try jogging in a circle with your back hollowed and see how long until your own back hurts. 

If you disagree with me, then test your horse. Can he walk on a lose rein with his neck stretched down (or with his head at least parallel to his ears)? Does he speed up when you give him a slight leg cue? Does he hold a steady rhythm at the trot (also on a lose rein with no contact)? If he can do all the above then disregard everything I wrote. But if no, your horse is nervous (not because he is an arab) but because is education was probably rushed and he needs to relearn a few things. 

I highly reccomend you dial it back a few notches, that includes no more cantering down the trail, and WALK your horse until YOU know he is listening and TRUSTING you. 

Trust with a horse goes a long way. 

best regards, Sara


----------



## smguidotti (Jul 31, 2012)

I just want to add, if you are dead set on a swapping bits you should look at the "baucher bit". It has very slight leverage but not nearly has forceful as many other curb bits. 

I don't know how you ride -- but I am assuming you ride with soft hands. 

Just please be patient with your horse.


----------



## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

If he worked great in a curb, that seems like a logical bit to use. It is what he seems to be trained with. 

The curb bit is only harsh if you make it be harsh. You have to be careful to not handle his mouth roughly. I use a mild, low port, short shanked curb on my horse. Most of the time, I ride with a totally loose rein. When I need the bit, then it is there and she respects it. Even when spooked, she stops dead still when asked with gentle pressure.

Some horses don't like a broken bit.


----------



## Painted Horse (Dec 29, 2006)

A stronger bit is not the answer, Teaching the horse to mind is the answer.
For a lot of rides, you will need to work on behavior issues. It will be a lot of circling, S's, dancing with bushes, and having a mad horse that is mad that you will not let him have his way. But with practice, he will learn that he can eventually catch up and that he is not being fed to the wolves when he is behind.

It will be a challenge, But this is what make great horses and helps you become a better horseperson.


----------



## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

Good advice from everyone. 

Search out Cherie's posts. She's spent a lot of time outlining training methods that WORK. The best thread is "This is how we train a fearless trail horse" and there was another where she outlined how to get a horse to stand for mounting, it would apply here.

I would work with him on the ground. Ask him to "woah" on the ground, if he moves even one inch, firmly tug the lead, if he keeps moving back him up quick, move his feet and then say "woah!", allow him to stop, and then let him relax, keep it up till he gets the idea. Ho or woah means PLANT your feet.

As far as the bit, it wouldn't hurt to take him back to the old one until you guys work things out and do some more arena work. I grew up using nothing but curbs, they won't hurt a thing if you know how to use them. Have you ridden with them?
When I got my gelding they were using a shanked french link on him. He was a mess and hated it. Use a simple snaffle on him now and it's like night and day. I hope to get him to a mild ported curb because I like and know the action better. Then eventually bitless when he gets more responsive to leg and seat cues.


----------



## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

Here are the links!
This is how we train a fearless trail horse!

Read more: Horse Training

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/my-horse-wont-stand-still-me-145674/


----------



## Wallaby (Jul 13, 2008)

existentialpony said:


> To be fair, I've been riding this horse for about a week, and I know that these things take time. But I feel like a good stop is the most important thing on a horse, and for whatever reason he just won't give it to me in this bit.


Anytime. 

One thought I had, after reading that you've only been riding this guy for a week (I assumed you already had a relationship built up), is your body language.

What are you doing with your body?
For me, I have a huge issue with being a really forward rider on forward horses. I have no issue being really relaxed on a laid back mount but stick me on a forward horse and I have to consciously force myself to relax, breath, shift my weight backwards, the whole deal. I can now shift over to relaxed pretty easily but it took months to get there.
You probably know that a tense rider makes for a tense go-go-go horse and it's the same with leaning forward.

Before doing anything more, I would spend a few rides just relaxing yourself. Think through each of your body parts and find the tension. When he acts up, analyze the situation and figure out exactly what you did prior to the issue. I would bet you'll find that you tensed up, or you were leaning slightly forward, or you forgot to breath for a second.
What I like to tell my lesson kids when they get nervous (I can tell how their minds are working by how my mare reacts to them, as soon as they get excited or their energy up, hers goes up too) is to pretend they're a centaur. They are physically attached to the creature they're riding, zero chance of falling off. I find that concept really helps them relax cuz generally, the fear in play is the fear that says they could fall off at any time!


The other thing: since it's only been a week, be sure to give him time to know you. You "know" him in terms of most things about his past history, breed, training, etc, but he has no clue about you. He doesn't know why he should trust you other than the fact that you seem like a generally nice person. As they say: you can't force the trust of an Arab, you earn it.
It took a good solid year for my (Arab) mare to trust me. She had come from a very confusing home (one owner was really lax-ly nice, the other was very harsh and expected perfection all the time) so she was basically waiting for "the other shoe" to drop for a year. That was all totally worth it now that she trusts me more than any creature I've ever seen BUT it was a harrrd year! 
I don't think it'll take you a year - that's just an example.


Anyway, if you ride today, analyze what you're telling him to do with your body! 
With a horse that knows you, you can get away with all sorts of confusing stuff but a new horse, you get the chance to see what might need to be improved and improve it!


----------



## existentialpony (Dec 4, 2012)

Thanks for all of the opinions.  I actually learned today (confirmed a suspicion, actually) from his previous owner that Jax has been ridden in fairly "harsh" bits, especially curbs since the Western Pleasure shows he attended required some kind of curb. I'm guessing that curb = go to work, for him. I am wondering if I can't use a pelham snaffle with last-resort curb reins to show him it is just as important to respond to a softer jointed bit?

Just to add on what some people said, I don't think he "dislikes" jointed bits at all-- on the contrary I am pretty much sure he loves his french link, haha. But that is the sort of issue I am dealing with.

Thanks again for all of the advice, though!


----------



## existentialpony (Dec 4, 2012)

Thanks for all of the advice and help, guys! Just an update: I took Jax out in the arena today to make sure he wasn't stiff, etc, just a little walk/trot and transitions, stops... and he was an angel! Aren't tired horses fantastic? :lol: But in all seriousness, after some stretching and warming up, we were both very relaxed today and he was very receptive to cues without a change of bit. I was out of his mouth almost the entire time and cut our riding short to reward him for his good behavior (since everything I wanted to work on was suddenly worked out).

I think you guys were right about him being a little nervous/excited yesterday. It's funny, because he's a very calm horse for an Arabian, but I shouldn't have assumed that since he was adjusting so well to the new barn/horses/people, he would behave perfectly our first time out on the trails.

I'll keep you all updated (maybe start a thread on him) to let you know how we progress. I picked up a plain D-ring snaffle, but I'm going to stick with the french link for now and see if I can't keep him in this mentality! Thanks again!


----------



## smguidotti (Jul 31, 2012)

I forgot to add before, when he stretches down and relaxes, scratch his withers if you don't already - every time! My mare is beginning to associate wither scratching with relaxing and I don't have to *ask* her nearly as much to stretch now becasue she *likes* to now. So, yeah something else to think about


----------



## existentialpony (Dec 4, 2012)

Just an update... our days are here and there lately, but today was especially frustrating.  I spent most of our ride today doing dozens and dozens of "jog, whoa, back... jog, whoa, back..." today with Jax, and even when he was sweaty and tired he just wouldn't consistently stop for me. He is always giving me a slow down, step, step... stop, and not relaxing into it.

I don't understand. On the ground, on the lunge and even in the round pen he knows whoa means stop. I can hold up my hand and say whoa when he's in his paddock and run laps around him while he stands still, but when I'm on his back he just won't take it seriously no matter how many repetitions we do.

I am just very frustrated. Tomorrow morning will be another day of "whoa back stop" for us, and maybe if that won't work I'll have him work super hard every time he gives me a lazy stop. I'm just running out of ideas. We have respect on the ground, we have building respect in the saddle when I ask him to quicken or soften his gaits, and we even had an exciting moment of collection today! But he just won't stop for me.


----------

