# If sawing on the mouth is not good, why does everyone do it....



## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

It produces a quick, though incorrect result. Problem is, people just see "head down" - and "head down" is always right, right?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lonannuniel (Jun 13, 2008)

I wouldn't say that his movement is 'sawing'. I always pictured sawing at a horses mouth more of an aggressive move that requires constant pressure on both reins, with the rider pulling on each individually ( resulting on the horses head going up and jerking from side to side with the reins) . In this situation, I would call that more of a 'bump with each rein' there is pressure then it's released. not the prettiest movement by far though. not comment on the leg yield. hope that helped.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

I can't wait the video right now because I'm on my phone and videos aren't to great of quality on it, but it might be a different thing then sawing, it just looks like it if you don't know the difference. And there will always be trainers out there with a big name, but do bad things or other.
In dressage the horses body should have no bend in it at all in a leg yeild, that's why people fight that it is not a lateral movement. I don't know what a western sidepass should look like but if he is quickly tuning that horses up for a lady who has been riding him as a pleasure horse, then I wouldn't expect anything to be textbook perfect.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Looked at the video and it looked like what so many western trainers do.

That is why I have so much against "western" training.

There really is no concept of horsemanship here as the trainer has no feel for the horse.

If I was at that arena watching I would be walking away with my head shaking in disgust.


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## Zimalia (May 8, 2011)

Quite the contrary, this rider is a TOP trainer. He shows every easy hands, and a LOT of feel for the horse.

It's difficult for those not involved in cutting horses to understand what is going on, and why. Just as for me, not involved in anything even remotely english, why they do some of the things they do. You can't compare the 2 and decide one is right and one is wrong when you don't know both sides.

See, what Larry Trocha is doing makes sense to me. This horse has been trained that bumping both sides of the bit means to lower his head. Nothing difficult there. It's a LONG way from what you are describing as "sawing on the reins".

This horse is very light in the bridle. He's not wringing his tail in frustration. He's not afraid of the bit or the rider. Very light and responsive.

If you see something you don't understand, ask instead of just condemning it.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Zimalia said:


> Quite the contrary, this rider is a TOP trainer. He shows every easy hands, and a LOT of feel for the horse.
> 
> It's difficult for those not involved in cutting horses to understand what is going on, and why. Just as for me, not involved in anything even remotely english, why they do some of the things they do. You can't compare the 2 and decide one is right and one is wrong when you don't know both sides.
> 
> ...



I have ridden both English and western, and still object to some of the things being done here.


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## Equilove (Feb 21, 2011)

Zimalia said:


> Quite the contrary, this rider is a TOP trainer. He shows every easy hands, and a LOT of feel for the horse.
> 
> It's difficult for those not involved in cutting horses to understand what is going on, and why. Just as for me, not involved in anything even remotely english, why they do some of the things they do. You can't compare the 2 and decide one is right and one is wrong when you don't know both sides.
> 
> ...


^ This.

A lot of people have different views on what is "right" and "wrong" when it comes to training horses. Disagree with it all you want, say the man is an idiot, but I see a soft responsive horse that is listening to its rider contently...


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## Citrus (Feb 26, 2010)

JustDressageIt said:


> It produces a quick, though incorrect result. Problem is, people just see "head down" - and "head down" is always right, right?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That is what it looks like....  Poor horse in the video is chewing and chewing and protecting his mouth......


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## Citrus (Feb 26, 2010)

Zimalia said:


> Quite the contrary, this rider is a TOP trainer. He shows every easy hands, and a LOT of feel for the horse.
> 
> It's difficult for those not involved in cutting horses to understand what is going on, and why. Just as for me, not involved in anything even remotely english, why they do some of the things they do. You can't compare the 2 and decide one is right and one is wrong when you don't know both sides.
> 
> ...


I was not asking.... to me this looks like sawing- a back and forth motion on the horses bit.... I never said I don't understand it, nor did I ask what the guy was doing. I see it through my eyes and call it such.


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## Citrus (Feb 26, 2010)

Equilove said:


> ^ This.
> 
> A lot of people have different views on what is "right" and "wrong" when it comes to training horses. Disagree with it all you want, say the man is an idiot, but I see a soft responsive horse that is listening to its rider contently...


 
This is the soft hands we strive for in western? There is tons of pressure on those reins..... not constantly, but it is not a light asking first. I have a completely different idea on what soft hands are- to me it is more consistent, not hard hands sawing on the reins one second then releasing the next. I would like to see a video of dressage riders sawing on a horses mouth so their hands appear soft later.....anyone??


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## GeminiJumper (Jun 12, 2008)

JustDressageIt said:


> It produces a quick, though incorrect result. Problem is, people just see "head down" - and "head down" is always right, right?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So true! 

Just because his head is down does not mean he is using his back and hindquarters, which is the desired end result of any discipline if you ask me. A lot of riders use the seesawing method because it brings them a quick result but it is not consistent and it is not correct. You see how many times he had to do it to the horse?


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## Citrus (Feb 26, 2010)

GeminiJumper said:


> So true!
> 
> Just because his head is down does not mean he is using his back and hindquarters, which is the desired end result of any discipline if you ask me. A lot of riders use the seesawing method because it brings them a quick result but it is not consistent and it is not correct. You see how many times he had to do it to the horse?


Exactly what I was thinking.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Really? :-|

Should I post Dressage videos and trash how tight they hang onto a horses mouth, how tense they always look, how the mouth is frothing, the bit is working, the teeth are champing half the time? How about the tail switching every second stride?

Anyone with much horse sense isn't going to say a Dressage horse looks like a "happy" horse. Everyone uses different techniques and different terms, and I sure know I am NOT a good enough trainer to be criticizing someone else who is producing happy, winning horses.

Maybe we need to reflect on our OWN techniques a little more before thinking we have the knowledge to oust others on a public forum and trashing disciplines.

I find this EXTRA ironic considering the fit that was pitched by Dressage riders in the videos forum when ponyboy started disagreeing with Dressage. Amazing how that shoe only seems to fit one foot.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

What? You cannot stereotype a discipline like that when you are angry and expect anyone to even think about taking you seriously. There are bad training methods in EVERY discipline and there are also those sad people who stereotype disciplines as being all bad. You're going to have to learn to put up with them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

This is exactly what all my friends tell me I need to do with Soda. Apparently I also need to put a tie down on him because once I get his head down I will have control over him. 

I'm not a horse "trainer" and really I'm just muddling along as best as I can, but the approach doesn't really make sense to me...


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Citris, you are correct - that see sawing is incorrect. Especially with how loud the riders hands are while doing it. OUCH.

When he's doing it, the horse isn't even opened up in the front, nor is he engaged or moving under himself.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

MN Tigerstripes said:


> This is exactly what all my friends tell me I need to do with Soda. Apparently I also need to put a tie down on him because once I get his head down I will have control over him.
> 
> I'm not a horse "trainer" and really I'm just muddling along as best as I can, but the approach doesn't really make sense to me...


I would ignore your friends.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

I've been ignoring them for the last 3 years about it. :lol: Occaisionally they'll still try to get a shot in "you need to put a tie down on him just to teach him to give his nose and drop his head." I don't argue about it anymore, just keep ignoring it.


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

imo every horse is different and when my one mare who is less sensitive braces or pulls on the bit, i will get strong with my hands, and then as soon as she stops bracing/pulling, i IMMED relax on the mouth. i only do this once or twice and she will go back to riding on a long/soft rein and working through her back. if that was something i had to do all the time as opposed to once in a blue moon when she is out of work and fresh coming back to work, i'd be seriously reevaluating how my horses are trained.

i HATE the bump/release theory as a method of everyday riding. i will tug/release to get a horse to unbrace, but it should NOT be the sole way of getting the horse to give with the jaw. once the horse is unbraced i ride legs/seat through back to bridle with a soft, following contact. the tug/release is not a method of riding for me, but a quick correction to remind the horse - hey i'm here and i'm not gonna hold you up - let's get back to work now.

hope that makes sense.

oh and i do ride both eng and western and i did not watch the full video.


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## Sahara (Jul 23, 2010)

You do realize that he isn't asking for collection or hind-end engagement when he "shakes" the horse down? This is a horse that has been trained on cows. He can't do his job well if his head is up in the air like a giraffe. Just because some of you don't understand it, doesn't make it wrong. 

How would you train a cutter to keep his head level without the use of a tie-down or training fork?


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Haha I wasn't quite expecting this result. 
I will say this: I'm not very happy with a good portion of what's at the top of the Dressage world right now either. 
I think a good read for everyone on this thread is: "Tug of War: Classical vs 'Modern' Dressage" - its an extremely good read, even for non-dressage riders. 
There are LOTS of training techniques out there that I don't agree with - both english and western.... Doesn't mean I can't call it out when I see it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GeminiJumper (Jun 12, 2008)

Frame 8:05. Umm, ouch?


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## dutchess (Sep 23, 2010)

CJ82Sky said:


> i HATE the bump/release theory as a method of everyday riding. i will tug/release to get a horse to unbrace, but it should NOT be the sole way of getting the horse to give with the jaw. once the horse is unbraced i ride legs/seat through back to bridle with a soft, following contact. the tug/release is not a method of riding for me, but a quick correction to remind the horse - hey i'm here and i'm not gonna hold you up - let's get back to work now.


Apologies for a thread hijack, but from your experience with your horse, maybe you could help me. The mare I'm riding (who's currently for sale) is a school horse, and our instructor is big on the "bump bump" theory. It makes me crazy...so, when I'm out riding on the weekends with her, how would you recommend encouraging her to unbrace and be forward without reinforcing the bumps? It's what she responds to, but I HATE it. I'd like to at least try something different when I'm on her back, even if everyone else who rides her still tugs on the poor girl like there's no tomorrow.


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## Sahara (Jul 23, 2010)

GeminiJumper said:


> Frame 8:05. Umm, ouch?


I completely agree that what he is doing to the horse's mouth is probably very uncomfortable, but for what......3 seconds? I'd take a 3 second correction over an overly tight tie-down or running martingale anyday of the week. Assuming he has a smooth snaffle in his mouth, the only areas receiving any pressure are the tongue, bars, and lips. Which leaves his poll, chin, nose, and palate compelely free of pressure.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

i think it's because people don't understand what's happening. he's not "just sawwing on the mouth". he's asking for lateral flexion alternate directions in succession, and if the horse is relatively soft laterally (which it is, as we see elsewhere in the video) then the horse will easily and happily give it's head down/in from the "saw" or "shake".

any skeptics can try this themselves: on your horse with loose reins and a snaffle, pull 1 rein untill the horse gives his head laterally, the moment he gives his head slacken that rein and at the same time pull the other untill the horse gives his head the other way, and continue. soon enough the horse will drop his head down and in whenever you switch the active rein, keeping in mind that snaffles work best when only 1 rein is active at any given time. the "sawwing" this guy's doing is just a sped up version of that.

not to be confused with uneducated pony clubbers sawwing the mouth, who do so incorrectly because they don't know exactly what it is (alternating lateral flexion), so they could never time switching the active rein correctly.



dutchess said:


> Apologies for a thread hijack, but from your experience with your horse, maybe you could help me. The mare I'm riding (who's currently for sale) is a school horse, and our instructor is big on the "bump bump" theory. It makes me crazy...so, when I'm out riding on the weekends with her, how would you recommend encouraging her to unbrace and be forward without reinforcing the bumps? It's what she responds to, but I HATE it. I'd like to at least try something different when I'm on her back, even if everyone else who rides her still tugs on the poor girl like there's no tomorrow.


smooth & steady pressure and lots of patience should help


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