# Is he really a "true" black?



## Starlite (Jan 25, 2011)

What color is he? He is being called "black", but i don't think so..he looks bay to me especially in the sunshine.


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## slc (Jan 30, 2011)

This horse is dark brown. I have one of a similar color - it is registered by the breeder as dark brown.

A bay horse has more of a reddish or at its very lightest, a sandy color.

Beware, there are some who call any horse with a black mane and tail that isn't a buckskin or dun, a 'bay', regardless of its body color.

But bay consists not just of point color, but also a body color - that reddish brown color, originally 'badius', in Latin.

In general, people tend to like to have a 'black' horse and so people often call dark brown or dark liver chestnut horses 'black', especially when they're selling it.

However, you can call your horse whatever color you want.


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## TamaraB (Nov 17, 2010)

Very interesting! So what color is this mare? I always called her a dark bay.


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

i think hes black, he just fades in the sun. even if a black horse fades they are still black. there is no difference between black and 'true black'


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Tamara - You horse is brown. 

Starlite - when you get him home, if he isn't already, can you get some closer/better pictures of his head? Thanks.


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## TamaraB (Nov 17, 2010)

LOL Thanks!


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## WickedNag (Sep 7, 2010)

The fine hair around the eyes and on the muzzle will remain black on a horse even if the horse fades. And yes true blacks can and do fade...


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## Starlite (Jan 25, 2011)

Yes, I will get more pics. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## slc (Jan 30, 2011)

Well the second one also looks dark brown to me, i see brown, not red. I'm sure some people would argue that she has enough brown on her belly and flanks to be bay. But I tend to stick with bay being more a reddish color and less a brown color.

In general, in the US, people are loathe to call a horse 'brown' or 'dark brown'. In Europe, I think there is just less emotion around color, so you hear people using the term brown for these colors.

But here, oboy. Let it be called anything, faded black, smoky black, ANYTHING but just plain old BROWN, which sounds so boring. We love to cook up lots of names for colors.


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## WickedNag (Sep 7, 2010)

I would tend to call the other a seal brown which I don't think they register so brown it is 

My daughter has a brown horse and I think he is one of the prettiest horses I have ever seen


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

It'd be easier to figure out after you get different pictures, but right now I'd say either fading black (just a black that fades in the sun. Still black) or maybe smoky black, but you'd have to test for cream to be sure.

What are his parents' colours?


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## slc (Jan 30, 2011)

Oh yes wicked nag that is a lovely, lovely color in your photo.

Personally I think brown is a super color especially with white markings.

And like any other color it can roan, I've seen some really beautiful brown roans too.

Fading black, smoky black, no. Not this horse. No signs of fading such as the ends of the mane, etc. Smoky actually looks smokey, as if the color was washed away. 

When I go look on the internet it seems the 'thing' now to call brown horses smoky black or something else other than just brown. I guess it sounds 'cooler'.

They're just brown, guys.

Be brown and proud.


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## justjump (Jan 18, 2011)

He's brown, but very pretty!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## trynottofall (Feb 23, 2011)

I think both of them look dark brown to me.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Going to heartily disagree with you slc. Smokey black does _not _have to look smokey. There _are_ smokey blacks that have no indications that they are carrying cream and look just black as black. Cream does a very good job of "hiding" on a black horse.


Your attitude is a little off putting and basically telling everyone that because they want to know the exact color of their horse that they are too wrapped up in color. Wanting to know what exactly the color is is no different then wanting to learn other things.


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## slc (Jan 30, 2011)

I would say smoky black isn't always smoky, but very often is - to me it just looks a little bit different from a completely black, just a bit washed off looking - and yes some are 'on the border' and really look like other colors. But most of the time, the smoky black - to me, honestly, yes, it just looks somewhat 'smoky'. Not like a cream or Weimereiner color, but just a bit 'washed off'. For me the real tip off it's a smoky black is that the mane and tail color is very close to the body color. We almost bought an Icelandic of that color.

And actually, it is extremely rare that a black does not fade in sun - new research in color has shown that.

There now is a genetic test to differentiate black and bay from brown, so if you really are interested in seeing what your horse's color is based on its genes, you can do that.

There are other ways to tell what genes an animal actually has for color, for example, test breedings.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Well then I have one of those rares. My black tobiano mare does not fade. I know quite a few others (black horses) that do not fade. She me the research that says it is rare for black to not fade.

As for the testing for brown... Yes, there is a test. The place that tests for it only tests for the brown extension (At) and _nothing_ else.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

I also know of 3 black tobianos that do not fade in the sun.. Out of about 5 black horses that I know of. Nevermind. out of the 5 I can think of, 4 don't fade. One's just a black QH. I wouldn't exactly call that rare. 

Brown horses also usually have mealy muzzles and lightened flanks. I don't see that in those pictures.


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## crimsonsky (Feb 18, 2011)

so what would my horse be? i know what he's registered as but i'm curious to see what your thoughts are.

this is from summer:









and this is from new years this year:


















also - if anyone is feeling skippy - what color would you say my 9mth old colt is. i actually need to mark his coloring and send his registration papers in so this is helpful. 










and his face to see a better/more detailed bit of color:









this is from when he was 3mth if that makes a difference:


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

slc said:


> I would say smoky black isn't always smoky, but very often is - to me it just looks a little bit different from a completely black, just a bit washed off looking - and yes some are 'on the border' and really look like other colors. But most of the time, the smoky black - to me, honestly, yes, it just looks somewhat 'smoky'. Not like a cream or Weimereiner color, but just a bit 'washed off'. For me the real tip off it's a smoky black is that the mane and tail color is very close to the body color. We almost bought an Icelandic of that color.
> 
> And actually, it is extremely rare that a black does not fade in sun - new research in color has shown that.
> 
> ...


Also just because a black looks "washed out" does not mean that it is carrying cream either. The _only_ way to know if a horse is a smokey black is to test (unless you want to take a chance with breeding, but why do that when a $25 test will tell you for sure?). You _cannot_ tell smokey black by looking. Same thing goes for smokey brown.

I would _never_ recommend test breedings just to figure out what color a horse is. Genetic testing is the cheapest and easiest route for that without adding to the horse population. Also test breeding is not possible if the horse is gelded or spayed.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

crimson - I can't see the first two pictures real well on my phone. I will have to look when I get home. The appy, I would call him a brown with a blanket with spots, and a star.


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## crimsonsky (Feb 18, 2011)

NdAppy said:


> crimson - I can't see the first two pictures real well on my phone. I will have to look when I get home. The appy, I would call him a brown with a blanket with spots, and a star.


and therein lies my confusion - as he is really greying/roaning out under that winter coat. the picture of his face kind of shows it but he's at least half silver/grey along with the brown on his face/neck/body (not his legs though). oye... i love appys but the color combinations can make one loopy. :shock:


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Crimson-- The first horse is black. It looks like he might fade a bit in the sun, but not much.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

crimsonsky said:


> and therein lies my confusion - as he is really greying/roaning out under that winter coat. the picture of his face kind of shows it but he's at least half silver/grey along with the brown on his face/neck/body (not his legs though). oye... i love appys but the color combinations can make one loopy. :shock:


What colors were his sire/dam?

He could very well have LP roan as well.  Hard to tell with the winter coat though.


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## slc (Jan 30, 2011)

"I would _never _recommend test breedings"

Well no. Especially for geldings, LOL.

You know, it's possible that the 'fading black' thing is defined a little different by the researchers than by normal people. That might account for why it doesn't seem rare to us yet researchers say it is. 

But I've never found anything that specifically indicates how they test for fading or non fading.


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## crimsonsky (Feb 18, 2011)

NdAppy said:


> What colors were his sire/dam?
> 
> He could very well have LP roan as well.  Hard to tell with the winter coat though.


mom (from a few years ago i believe):









dad (also at least a year or so old):









and the colt when he was born:


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## Starlite (Jan 25, 2011)

I lovvvvvve his spotty butt! love love!


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

slc said:


> "I would _never _recommend test breedings"
> 
> Well no. Especially for geldings, LOL.
> 
> ...


Well, you could just stick them out in the sun to figure out if they fade or not..

But I personally don't think it'd really be a "fading gene". Some people have their own hair fade in the sun. Some don't. Some summers my hair goes really blonde, some summers it stays dark blonde.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

:rofl: Callie is outside 24/7/365. Maybe blanketed for a few days in the winter, but otherwise she is outside. She is a nonfading black.


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## kywalkinghorse2010 (Dec 9, 2010)

It was always my understanding that a true brown horse would have dark brown hairs around the muzzle and in the flank area. If you look at all the pictures, Tamara's horse doesn't have brown hairs around the muzzle. He just looks sunfaded to me.


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## crimsonsky (Feb 18, 2011)

Starlite said:


> I lovvvvvve his spotty butt! love love!


thanks! i'm quite a fan myself.


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## Twilight Arabians (Dec 14, 2008)

I'd say your horse is brown, here are a few pictures of Onyx, we don't own him anymore but I think he's as close to true black as you can get. These are mid to late summer pictures, he was never blanketed, would stand in the sun all day.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

My twh is a homozygous black. His coat is black as coal with no variation in all seasons.


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