# 'Natural Dressage'



## DarkChylde (Nov 13, 2008)

I thought there were interesting, tho I was far more impressed with the last video, where it seems to be more the finished product. Anyhow, tell me what ya'll think.....


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## 1dog3cats17rodents (Dec 7, 2007)

Wow! Those are just amazing! I watched them all the way through, and I can't believe what the horses were doing just from her body language and treats! They certainly pretty darn happy doing it too


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

Horses aren't dogs, that's why treats don't work. High collection isn't a 'trick', it takes horses a lot of muscle to do these actions CORRECTLY.

Most of their 'dressage' is incorrect, with sunken chests and horses on the forehand. To me, they don't look happy, either--they seem to have a look on their face that is, 'give me the **** treat crazy lady!'


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## DarkChylde (Nov 13, 2008)

Wow, all this green and yellow is trippin me out. Nice, I like it.

MayfieldK- I actually agree with you, except the last one was vastly different. The back was properly rounded, the spring was nice, even the poll was set. I hafta admit I could see the beginnings of collection and impulsion, (altho I like to see impulsion like a horse would be pulling something rather than chasing it) in the first 4 videos, but I must admit to being impressed with the last one. I didn't see the hollow back or sunken chest with him. Did notice that on the first ones tho.

I also am in agreeance with you about the treats, I expressed similar concerns when me and hubby were watching it. I also am not fond of treat giving as it lowers your status in the herd to give up food. But some horses you can use it with and some it is best not to.

However, all that aside, if_ I_ could get _my_ horse to passage and piaffe like that with me on the ground, I would be impressed with myself - and the horse!:lol:


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

Watch the last one again. All of the bounce is in the hind end--because the hind end is free to play, because the FOREHAND is loaded. There is no bounce in the front end, because that's where all his weight is. In the last one especially, the croup gets VERY high... when at that level of 'training', it should be low.


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## DarkChylde (Nov 13, 2008)

I will admit his bounce is front heavy. :wink: 

But I do think his headset is awesome for being at liberty.


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## welshy (Jan 7, 2009)

mayfieldk said:


> Horses aren't dogs, that's why treats don't work. High collection isn't a 'trick', it takes horses a lot of muscle to do these actions CORRECTLY.
> 
> Most of their 'dressage' is incorrect, with sunken chests and horses on the forehand. To me, they don't look happy, either--they seem to have a look on their face that is, 'give me the **** treat crazy lady!'


i totally agree the horses have their ears back like they're unhappy at times and most of the horses are on the forehand which isn't helping the horse one bit


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

I agree with mayfieldk. Cheap tricks. This is NOT dressage.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

I've never seen a happy dressage horse either.

Anytime you can get a horse to perform without serious equipment it's a good thing IMO. Nevermind true collection, it is not natural for a horse to trot in place for more than a few strides. Getting one to do it at liberty is pretty amazing. I wonder how many Grand Prix dressage riders could get their horses to do that?


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

mayfieldk said:


> Watch the last one again. All of the bounce is in the hind end--because the hind end is free to play, because the FOREHAND is loaded. There is no bounce in the front end, because that's where all his weight is. In the last one especially, the croup gets VERY high... when at that level of 'training', it should be low.


Agree completely. These are tricks, NOT correct dressage. 



> I've never seen a happy dressage horse either.


Ponyboy -there are plenty of happy, relaxed dressage horses out there - that is a very bold and very very inaccurate thing to say.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

ponyboy - Obviously you have no idea what dressage is. Go read a book.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

I know what that answer really means. It speaks for itself.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

JustDressageIt said:


> Ponyboy -there are plenty of happy, relaxed dressage horses out there - that is a very bold and very very inaccurate thing to say.


Prove it.

Dressage used to be about the partnership of horse and rider. Now it's about bending the horse into a certain shape the fastest way possible for money/prestige.


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## Jubilee (Dec 15, 2008)

ponyboy said:


> Prove it.
> 
> Dressage used to be about the partnership of horse and rider. Now it's about bending the horse into a certain shape the fastest way possible for money/prestige.


Dressage STILL is about the partnership of horse and rider. Don't cluster all dressage riders into the same group of money and fame seeking animal exploiters. That's not what it's about. TRUE dressage is about achieving the highest level of harmony and communication with a horse. Granted, there are people out there that are doing Dressage for all the wrong reasons and go about it all the wrong ways just for the fame and money, BUT not all Dressage riders are like that. Don't take a few videos you see on YouTube about irresponsible Dressage Riders and label it as the norm for ALL Dressage riders. That is a very ignorant thing to do. 

Everyone is entitled to their opinions. If you don't agree with Dressage that's fine. But don't ignorantly label any person or method without properly educating yourself on the subject. 

True Dressage riders treasure the heritage of the generations of Dressage riders that have come before them while continually seeking to improve the sport for horse and riders. If Dressage has changed than I believe it is changing for the better in world that has a greater value for the well being of animals.


Sorry for the rant. Back to the original subject:

I've seen these videos before and I think they look like a lot of fun and games. They aren't trying to train these horses for Grand Prix, they are just having some fun with their ponies. I think as long as they don't overwork them on difficult tasks such as Passage and Piaffe there is no harm done. I'm not really against clicker training when it comes to tricks (which is really what they are doing) but I don't think it works well if you are training the horse for riding and showing.

Jubilee


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

The only reason I have a problem with it is because it's labeled 'natural dressage'. Like the way the rest of us do dressage is somehow wrong!

The classical methods are working just fine. No need to come up with weird, off-the-wall ways to make horses do things.

And PonyBoy, don't come play with the big boys until you've learned enough. Most COMPETITIVE dressage is ruining the morals and the horses. There are still classical riders who do and do not show.

'anything you can get without equipment?' They're getting all incorrect work, which is the same reason why horses are breaking down later. They're not carrying their body correctly, and their muscles and joints aren't well prepared for the work that's being asked of them. I also don't consider this liberty--they're treating them like dogs.

But I guess the flashy tricks work more for you then the long, somewhat boring way of classical dressage.


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## Strange (Jan 11, 2009)

> I've never seen a happy dressage horse either.


As JustDressageIt said, there are plenty of happy dressage horses. My pinto gelding is one of them. He _enjoys_ his job because he _understands_ what he's being _asked_ to do. If a horse doesn't enjoy their discipline, then there are some critical training steps that were missed, and the horse is not suited to the sport. 



> Watch the last one again. All of the bounce is in the hind end--because the hind end is free to play, because the FOREHAND is loaded. There is no bounce in the front end, because that's where all his weight is. In the last one especially, the croup gets VERY high... when at that level of 'training', it should be low.


I agree with mayfieldk as well. The horse in the video is not properly balanced at all, and that is _not_ proper dressage.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

ponyboy said:


> Prove it.
> 
> Dressage used to be about the partnership of horse and rider. Now it's about bending the horse into a certain shape the fastest way possible for money/prestige.


Your statements make you sound ignorant. 

I do dressage, but I try and approach it so it's good for my horse; I don't have any set goals in place and don't want to compete at the Olympic level, so I go at my horse's pace - which is how it should be done regardless... but my horse enjoys dressage because I don't make it stressful.

Of course, a lot of dressage riders are in it for the titles and money, so they make shortcuts - I don't agree with that, and tend to squirm in my seat watching a lot of the Olympic level horses do their tests, as most horses really aren't moving freely or as they should be.

But please don't lump us all together. As with anything there are many avenues to accomplish certain tasks... and many of those methods are wrong, but they get results.

I'm sure my speech here won't do much to change your mind.


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## welshy (Jan 7, 2009)

sorry ponyboy i have to agree with everyone else that was rather a rash and arrogant and clearly naiive coment to make.

the horses in those videos do look unhappy i would definitely not say what you said



ponyboy said:


> I've never seen a happy dressage horse either.


exactly what are you suggesting?
that us who don't do this so called "natural" dressage are making our horses unhappy?
that we hit them and force them to do what they don't want to do just so we can make them bent right? cuz that's rubbish if your suggesting that!!

Any horse can be trained to do something like that for the constant treats the people in the vids are giving them, but for goodness sake they aren't dogs!! and natural horsemanship doesn't work by using treats!!



ponyboy said:


> Prove it.
> 
> Dressage used to be about the partnership of horse and rider. Now it's about bending the horse into a certain shape the fastest way possible for money/prestige.


and are you suggesting that dressage isn't now?? these horses in the vids are wrong if they're backed like that (like what mayfieldk said) they aren't carrying their own weight properly let alone a riders weight aswell.

And not all of us are out for money/prestige perhaps your judging us on your own opinions?

And sorry DarkClyde i'm sure you didn't mean the vids you put on to cause such conflict


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

All let's please stay on topic and not make this a personal attack against one persons comments.


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## welshy (Jan 7, 2009)

yeh sorry farmpony84 it's just a very offensive comment to those who do dressage.


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## 1dog3cats17rodents (Dec 7, 2007)

Strange said:


> I agree with mayfieldk as well. The horse in the video is not properly balanced at all, and that is _not_ proper dressage.


Who says it has to be perfect? I'd like too see any one on here get there horse to do these "tricks" without a rider. Plus, I certainly think the horses are having fun chasing the "tiger" And that grey seems pretty dang happy running around! Pinned ears don't always mean unhappy, I know my horse pins his running and bucking with his friends in the pasture, and he's certainly not unhappy


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

ponyboy said:


> Prove it.


 




 
Nowhere do I see an unhappy horse. If he were there is no way that rider would have gotten the responses from his mount that was given to him. I see a enthusiastic horse doing his job happily.


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## Strange (Jan 11, 2009)

1dog3cats17rodents said:


> Who says it has to be perfect? I'd like too see any one on here get there horse to do these "tricks" without a rider. Plus, I certainly think the horses are having fun chasing the "tiger" And that grey seems pretty dang happy running around! Pinned ears don't always mean unhappy, I know my horse pins his running and bucking with his friends in the pasture, and he's certainly not unhappy



Well first of all I never said anything about unhappy horses. That was ponyboy. Secondly, if you're going to be doing Haute Ecole, it should be done correctly. There are people who can achieve true balance with a horse on the ground that is carrying no rider, but doing it improperly can harm the horse.


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## DarkChylde (Nov 13, 2008)

:shock: Wow. I really never thought this thread wudda brought out so much emotion.

My laptop fried and I missed all the fireworks. Dang.:-x 

I for one have seen some very happy dressage horses, (I'd post a great vid but I haven't figgered out the new laptop yet) but I will also be the first to admit that most horses now are overworked to achieve a certain musculature at WAYYYY to early an age, and abuse exists in the dressage end as it does all parts of the horse world, I'm afraid. But the money aspect will always be to the shortcoming of the horse.

Now, I have also seen bridless and saddless dressage I was so impressed with I could just hardly believe it myself. 

And the point about the horses not being at liberty per se was a good one, they ARE being worked, while they are riderless they are not at 'liberty'. 

But the last one would fall in my definition of dressage, and the others would be a start, tho again I say impulsion shuddn't be from 'chasing' but more like from invisible 'pulling', which would be difficult to teach in any other way (than I know of) than the classical method.

While I am a roundpenner and train my own method borrowed heavily from GaWaNi PonyBoy (not speaking of 'our' ponyboy) and some others, and like the various versions of NH- _IF DONE RIGHT_, I am still a classicalist myself when it comes to dressage, I don't even sit on anybody's back around here until they are three, and at some point the roundpen methods are not used as much and we progress to the classical methods (have Ingrid Klimke's books which I adhere to religiously) which I have yet to find a better way to what I want. BUT- I wish that last video wudda had more info and more stuff on it, (like maybe a levade or even piroettes(sp)?) because I really was more impressed with it. I could see beginnings in the first ones, but no where near like the last one. I was impressed with the last one, and that is coming from someone who thought I would never be able to train dressage from the ground in such a way, and that one inspired me. While I WOULD hafta to get on the back to fine tune it, I was still impressed with what I saw, it took roundpenning in the direction I would like it to go, if I could get my horses to do that from the ground, it would be a good start anyhow.

But then again, I am open minded, and willing to try new things, while having all respect due the more traditional ways as well.....


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I personally think that dressage creates a great basis to go farther with your horse. Most upper level competition dressage is indeed ruining the reputation of the sport. When I watched the Olympic competition, most of what I saw was uncomfortable and, dare I say it, ugly. At least that is what I thought. Even though the video is labeled wrong, I though the trick training with the black pony was cute and the bay in the last video was beautiful with willing movement (maybe not perfect, but willing). The gray horse in the vids though {:/ I'm not sure about him, he doesn't look to have any respect for that girls space. I love to see a connection and willing partnership in any discipline, just with most televised dressage, that is lacking. I don't have access to it in any other way, it is all western in this area.


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## DarkChylde (Nov 13, 2008)

I agree with you Smrobs, there is way too much tryin outdo each other, and tryin to always raise the standard a little higher, we got horses jumping so high they are more endangering themselves than anything. It is one thing for a human athlete to push him or her self beyond human limits, but to ask it of an animal when that animal wont be benefiting from the fame near as much as the human will. Still I do like to see good horsemanship on any level, and I have seen some impressive stuff. I was also impressed with this chic that was doin dressage saddleless and bridless and I was SO impressed. I was also really impressed with Stacy and her bridless and saddleless reining, she got me bit by the bug to do reining with my colt.

But I have seen some performances where the rider and horse do so wonderful together, here is a wonderful example....


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## Eolith (Sep 30, 2007)

I absolutely LOVE Blue Hors Matine and Andreas Helgstrand.

Those two exemplify the real natural dressage developed over centuries. I love how her ears are flopping all over the place throughout the performance. It really proves that she's relaxed and flowing well. So many other horses keep their ears pinned back.


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## DarkChylde (Nov 13, 2008)

Yep. I can't remember the Dressage guru that said 'You cannot make a horse piaffe that does not wish to piaffe', perhaps my fellow dressage enthusiats can tell me who said it..... This horse is very happy in this video to me, and seems to get more excited as the dance progresses.... That is DEFINATELY 'dancing' with your horse.


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