# HorseHelp: Building up your horses back, In-hand and Under Saddle



## DubyaS6 (Aug 30, 2010)

Very useful information!

Thanks!


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## MoheganSun (Dec 8, 2010)

My pleasure!


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Thanks for posting! 

The massage part is interesting. I gonna try it. 

I know you can lift the back (I remember my trainer in very beginning of my training with her lifted my horse up - that was a funny feeling should I add), however I didn't know it builds muscles.


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## MoheganSun (Dec 8, 2010)

No problem!

It very slowly builds up muscle, depending on how often you do it, but more importantly it teaches the horse to start lifting their back on their own, so they unknowingly build muscle out at pasture! after a couple of months, my mare started lifting her back on her own- they find it is much more comfortable than having it hollowed all the time!
My mare's back was in such bad condition that the first few times I did these lifts with her, there were loud popping noises in her spine- and a huge sigh of relief from her!


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## westerncowgurl (Jul 14, 2010)

this is really interesting ill have to try this with my horse  thanks for shareing this!


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## MoheganSun (Dec 8, 2010)

Thanks for reading!


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## kpptt2001 (Sep 28, 2010)

Great post! Funny, I always suggest hill work, poles etc. to people but you have expanded on these really well and added so many other elements such as the back stretch - fantstic! ...and welcome to the forum by the way!!  Looking forward to more of your posts! ha-ha


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## tempest (Jan 26, 2009)

just subscribing.


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## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

Thanks for Sharing. I had to do a double take at the picts of your horse. She is identical in coloring to a Morgan mare I used to ride.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Folks, it's somewhat OT, but HOW do you tell is you have (or need) muscles on back? Frankly I never can really tell a difference (silly me :lol: )...


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## RedTree (Jan 20, 2010)

great information I think I might try the back stretches on my boy


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## leonalee (Jul 1, 2010)

Awesome thread! Last year I started doing the back-lift exercise with my generally laid-back mare, and she lifted her hind leg as though she was going to try to cow-kick me the first time! First timers beware: if you rake too strongly, your horse might have a strong reaction that is not the back-lift you were going for! Tried again a few days later and used much less pressure: no problems at all! Whoops. Start with VERYVERY light pressure and increase slowly until you start seeing a "lift" response.


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## kpptt2001 (Sep 28, 2010)

I printed out this information yesterday and took it home. On our way out the the barn I was telling my mother about the back lifts and showed her the paper I had printed out. She says to me "oh, yeah, I did that with him the other night!" in kind of a caulky voice as if to say she already knew all about it. She then finished reading the page and started laughing. Apparently when she did it, she didn't use the light circular motions and basically cupped her hands and tapped his underside with all ten fingers repetedly. His reaction - caulked his head back at her and just stood there watching her as if to say "what is the crazy lady doing to me?!?", and did not flinch his back once. "No wonder he looked at me like that!" she said after reading the paper in her hand. It was pretty funny, and I just thought I would share and again say, thanks for posting this, otherwise I would be learning some very incorrect methods from my mother!! Ha-ha


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## MoheganSun (Dec 8, 2010)

Thanks so much for reading everybody! I'm glad you found the information helpful 


Kitten_Val: you can really tell just by looking- if you look closely at the before picture, the back looks 'gaunt', or hollow. Like its missing some flesh. Also, if your horse's back dips down slightly. 
i.e, a well-muscled back (and superb conformation)








(google)

and a back in need of work:
(this is Mohegan again, she was bum-high to the extreme during this growth spurt!)









I hope this helps! Kpptt2001, I'm so glad you found the information helpful enough to bother sharing it! Thanks for your comment!


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## Shortpygmies (Dec 21, 2010)

very helpfull we had a terrible accident where our barn fell onto our 3 horses and killed one of them due to 85mph winds and injured my 14 year old quarter horse so bad that we couldn't put a halter on him for about a month(not because he was afraid just because his face had huge gashes on it where it was bleeding and would probably scar eventually)but also gave him this huge dip in his back that may make it so i won't even be able to ride him ever again but i know these ground work exercises and especially the therapy will help my chances of being able to ride him again so thanks for the helpfull information!!!!


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## MoheganSun (Dec 8, 2010)

Thats great Shortpygmies! I sincerely hope this helps you- it CERTAINLY helped my mare, her back was so awful that people told me she should only do light trail riding and I should switch to driving- now she's excelling at eventing! I was told she would never be able to lift her back enough to comfortably support a rider, and she always stuck her neck straight up in the air from discomfort- now she has the most beautiful round back, and looves long and low exercises!
Crossing my fingers for your boy- what an awful accident, I'm so glad he's mending!


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## Carleen (Jun 19, 2009)

Just subscribing so I don't loose this thread again!

I am going to start trying the massage and back lifts with my guy.


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## Ak1 (Mar 14, 2010)

Love this!  I gotta try the long and low with Pipsqueak!


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

There are a few more exercises that you can do to also help build the back muscles as I posted on the thread mentioned:



> Hey Jemma- I was given some great tips by my Equine Chrio and my Equine Massage Therapist for Nelson - he's 21 and has had incurred a poor topline due to years of poor saddle fit.
> 
> His muscles are inverted instead of built, because the poor saddle fit *his previous owner had a saddler tell her to go wide with a wither relief pad* ended up compressing down on his muscles for those 6 years they were together, not permitting the muscles to obtain air while working, and they had no where to go....it has taken quite a long time to get these muscles somewhat back, but I wont have perfection because of his age.
> 
> ...


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## SidMit (Jun 4, 2010)

Just subscribing. Great info.


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## HollyBubbles (Jun 22, 2009)

I have a 7yo tb gelding who needs more topline and more neck muscle, and needs to use his back end better, before I can do bit work with him, and before I decide to jump him, I was told he has "race muscle" in his neck and it needs to go up further towards the top of his neck like an inch before I can do bit work with him or it'll just hurt his neck...

But how do I get him working long and low? He is a well trained horse, only been off the track since April, and I bought him in December. I can walk, trot, canter on a loose rein etc slow him up no problems and we do poles etc, but I was told to drop the reins to get him to work long and low, he doesn't do it automatically.

I do the carrot stretches with him using his drink bottle, he is really intrigued with it so I use that instead of treats. [He likes it because when I take the lid off it he blows into it with his nose it makes noise and he finds it really cool]

I will do hill work with him soon, but my goal is to compete in the local sports day in February. I want to do the pleasure ring, and sj 70cm.


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## MoheganSun (Dec 8, 2010)

HollyBubbles- I had the same problem! My mare loves doing a giraffe impression! If you can find or borrow a pair of side reins, try attaching them low to suggest to him to drop hid head- once he does it once, he will do it more and more as he will find it quite comfortable! Or, if you can find a long bungee cord or the 'elastic training rein' from Dover Saddlery, you can attach one end to the girth between his legs and the other side to the bit and that will lightly pressure him to drop his head. The problem will be getting him to drop his head the first few times- with only a couple of days of lunge work, my mare found it quite easy to drop her head in a nice, relaxed way! Make sure the bit you are using on him isn't to severe- the eggbutt snaffle of a variation of it (my mare goes in a slow-twist for long and low) works very well for long and low exercise, because your horse will have to lean into the bit to get his balance initially. loose rings won't work because they are designed to keep the horse from leaning. And the mouthpiece should be nice and thick, thin bits are harsh on the bars of my mouth and your horse would have the opposite reaction, your horse would back off the bit or hide behind it instead if stretching into your hands! I hope this helps, and you find a solution for your boy! Have fun!


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## MoheganSun (Dec 8, 2010)

Ak1 said:


> Love this!  I gotta try the long and low with Pipsqueak!


 YES you do! I can't wait to see that, with that much rein she'd probably move out into a pretty intense extension!


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## RedTree (Jan 20, 2010)

MoheganSun said:


> HollyBubbles- I had the same problem! My mare loves doing a giraffe impression! If you can find or borrow a pair of side reins, try attaching them low to suggest to him to drop hid head- once he does it once, he will do it more and more as he will find it quite comfortable! Or, if you can find a long bungee cord or the 'elastic training rein' from Dover Saddlery, you can attach one end to the girth between his legs and the other side to the bit and that will lightly pressure him to drop his head. The problem will be getting him to drop his head the first few times- with only a couple of days of lunge work, my mare found it quite easy to drop her head in a nice, relaxed way! Make sure the bit you are using on him isn't to severe- the eggbutt snaffle of a variation of it (my mare goes in a slow-twist for long and low) works very well for long and low exercise, because your horse will have to lean into the bit to get his balance initially. loose rings won't work because they are designed to keep the horse from leaning. And the mouthpiece should be nice and thick, thin bits are harsh on the bars of my mouth and your horse would have the opposite reaction, your horse would back off the bit or hide behind it instead if stretching into your hands! I hope this helps, and you find a solution for your boy! Have fun!


that is sort of what I am doing with Buzz now  cept I don't have access to side reins so I have just been doing a lot of transitions and now hes head is held slighlt lower 
I wanna invest in some side reins though and that post was great really explained it


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## HollyBubbles (Jun 22, 2009)

> HollyBubbles- I had the same problem! My mare loves doing a giraffe impression! If you can find or borrow a pair of side reins, try attaching them low to suggest to him to drop hid head- once he does it once, he will do it more and more as he will find it quite comfortable! Or, if you can find a long bungee cord or the 'elastic training rein' from Dover Saddlery, you can attach one end to the girth between his legs and the other side to the bit and that will lightly pressure him to drop his head. The problem will be getting him to drop his head the first few times- with only a couple of days of lunge work, my mare found it quite easy to drop her head in a nice, relaxed way! *Make sure the bit you are using on him isn't to severe- the eggbutt snaffle of a variation of it* (my mare goes in a slow-twist for long and low) works very well for long and low exercise, because your horse will have to lean into the bit to get his balance initially. loose rings won't work because they are designed to keep the horse from leaning. And the mouthpiece should be nice and thick, thin bits are harsh on the bars of my mouth and your horse would have the opposite reaction, your horse would back off the bit or hide behind it instead if stretching into your hands! I hope this helps, and you find a solution for your boy! Have fun!


That's exactly the bit I have on him haha and it's fixed ring too, nice and thick, although when I get a chance I'm going to get the next size up as I feel it's to close to the sides of his mouth.
I think I will want to learn how to use side reins properly before I think about trying them, I've never used them before but I have a friend who can help me out with that.
Thankyou, I will be trying that once this horrible weather clears up I think, I would rather lunge him with a bungee or side reins when It's not windy and he's not wound up because of it... As I don't think having a tense horse would be very good for getting him to work long and low haha.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

MoheganSun said:


> HIf you can find or borrow a pair of side reins, try attaching them low to suggest to him to drop hid head- once he does it once, he will do it more and more as he will find it quite comfortable! Or, if you can find a long bungee cord or the 'elastic training rein' from Dover Saddlery, you can attach one end to the girth between his legs and the other side to the bit and that will lightly pressure him to drop his head.
> 
> Make sure the bit you are using on him isn't to severe- the eggbutt snaffle of a variation of it (my mare goes in a slow-twist for long and low) works very well for long and low exercise, because your horse will have to lean into the bit to get his balance initially.


You do not want to Drag a horses head down using side reins or any other rein for that matter. You need to push a horse UP between your leg and hand so that he tucks his back end under, powers from the inside hind leg, brings his back up and round and lifts his wither. Only when he has done all of this should you worry about where his head is, however if you are doing it correctly then he will have already flexed at the poll and come onto the bit anyway, no need to drag him into a flase outline.

You should NEVER Ride in Side reins or a bungie.

a horse Should never have to LEAN on anything. You may have to take up a contact but any form of leaning what so ever is to be discouraged.


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## HollyBubbles (Jun 22, 2009)

> You do not want to Drag a horses head down using side reins or any other rein for that matter


I don't want to drag his head down but he has racing muscle and for him to comfortably work rounded or on the bit etc I need to extend the muscle he has, up another inch towards the top of his neck. they trained him the cheap way to get him to look pretty for prospective buyers, but when they took him off the track they immediately worked on getting him rounded without looking at his neck muscles which are clearly defined in his neck.
I would only use them *after* I have been taught face to face how to use them, and *only* to get him to drop his head, I want him to work long and low to stretch his neck and back and once he gets the idea of dropping his head I won't use them for that purpose anymore.



> You should NEVER Ride in Side reins or a bungie.


I won't ride in them I promise you that, if I am to use them I will only be lunging him with them on. I do ride with a running martingale (only occasionally if he is having a "oh lets be a giraffe" day, and on my mare that rears)



> You need to push a horse UP between your leg and hand so that he tucks his back end under, powers from the inside hind leg, brings his back up and round and lifts his wither.


Yes he has the problem where because of the "pretty training" they taught him to be on the bit all the time, but forgot about teaching his hind end to be underneath him, so he is lazy with his back end... Hill work here we come.
He is still learning all the commands though as his last race start was april this year and I have only just gotten him this month.
I'm going to get him to bring his hind end under properly before I think about long and low or bit work or anything like that.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Please do not back up a hill, that is incredibly dangerous. It is not only damaging to the horses hocks, it increases your risk of slipping AND it encourages a horse to think backwards.

You need a forwards thinking horse not a backwards one, which is why in dressage a maximum of 8 backwards strides immediatly followed by moving forwards is all that is asked for.

Hill work (forwards) is very very good for fitness and top line but if the back is truely swayed then nothing on earth will help it.

​


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

> You need to push a horse UP between your leg and hand so that he tucks his back end under, powers from the inside hind leg, brings his back up and round and lifts his wither. Only when he has done all of this should you worry about where his head is, however if you are doing it correctly then he will have already flexed at the poll and come onto the bit anyway, no need to drag him into a flase outline.


^^ This, and well said Faye!!! Your horse should be searching for contact, through being worked correctly and efficiantly through their rider. Riding Back to Front - Seat into Legs into Hands. 

Not using a twisted bit or using gadgets like bungee chords and all that crap - but through effective, correct riding.



> Please do not back up a hill, that is incredibly dangerous. It is not only damaging to the horses hocks, it increases your risk of slipping AND it encourages a horse to think backwards.
> 
> You need a forwards thinking horse not a backwards one, which is why in dressage a maximum of 8 backwards strides immediatly followed by moving forwards is all that is asked for.
> 
> ...


This again - never back a horse up a hill. As explained to me by my Equine Lameness Specialist, is just as you stated - very bad on your horses hocks. 



> My mare loves doing a giraffe impression! If you can find or borrow a pair of side reins, try attaching them low to suggest to him to drop hid head- once he does it once, he will do it more and more as he will find it quite comfortable! Or, if you can find a long bungee cord or the 'elastic training rein' from Dover Saddlery, you can attach one end to the girth between his legs and the other side to the bit and that will lightly pressure him to drop his head. The problem will be getting him to drop his head the first few times- with only a couple of days of lunge work, my mare found it quite easy to drop her head in a nice, relaxed way!


Where in this explanation, is the discussion of ensuring that your horse is going around and using their body correctly? Where is the explanation that your horse must be engaged, off of their forehand, tracking up, and using their body correctly, to ensure that the correct muscles are being developed???????

I greatly disagree with using gadgets - especially for people who have no clue how to use them, or how to ensure that their horse is working correctly.


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## ChingazMyBoy (Apr 16, 2009)

Thank you very much for sharing this superb information with the forum in such great detail. I know it will help me with building muscle in my OTTB and I am sure that it will help many others in the Horse Forum community.


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## HollyBubbles (Jun 22, 2009)

> Hill work (forwards) is very very good for fitness and top line but if the back is truely swayed then nothing on earth will help it.


I promise I'll only walk forwards up hills!! I looked at a "slope" in my paddock today and thought, I'm not backing my horse up that. So we walked forwards up and down it.
Mitch is very fit already and only 7, but I want to keep him in top condition, his back isn't swayed at all, I just want more topline and to make sure I'm not going to let any of his muscles get wasted.
Bubbles however... Is not fit and I will be building her up very slowly as she is 25 (much to her discust, she would rather gallop flat out and gets pig headed when I say NO)​


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## Mocha26 (Oct 27, 2010)

This was awesome information! THANKS!


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## RedTree (Jan 20, 2010)

MIEventer said:


> There are a few more exercises that you can do to also help build the back muscles as I posted on the thread mentioned:


I liked the ones you mentioned  very informative, gonna try these also


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

RedTree said:


> I liked the ones you mentioned  very informative, gonna try these also


You are welcome - I believe that doing these exercises on the ground, is far better than anything else mentioned (aside from working in the saddle). These were given to me by my Equine Chiro and my Equine Massuse and they have been helping greatly, but they have to be done regularily, about 4 - 5 days a week, and I usually do them after I ride.

The Long And Low works very well, I've been doing it with Nelson since he came off of his injury back in January - but you have to ensure that you are effective yourself as the rider, being tall, lifting your horses back up into your seat, getting the impulsion from behind. Ensuring you have contact and driving your horse into it *I don't mean rushing, ensure you have a steady, fluid rhythm* It'll come


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## LoverofHorses (Jan 3, 2010)

I will be definitely be using this great information. Thanks MIEventer and MoheganSun!!!


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## Bandera (Jul 31, 2010)

Love the morgan eventer!!!! Love morgans  i had one for a year and then he was sold and i got my new mare and i am trying to build up her back. thanks for the info!


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## phoenix (Jun 7, 2010)

This is great info, just what i was looking for. I rode my boy bareback today and it's like sitting on a fence, the rest of him is quite round but his back, awful! he lost a lot of weight recently (diet and exercise) and i've noticed that his back is dipping slightly so having exercises i can do with him on the ground at night when it's cold and nasty outside is a perfect solution for us.

I unfortunately live in ohio and there isn't a hill or slope near our barn.

I do have a question. How do i encourage him to go long and low when riding? he does it great when he's being free lunged but as soon as anyone gets on him his head shoots up in the air. I've managed to get it down a little but have no clue how to get him to carry it low. He works in side reins when i lunge and does that pretty nicely. Will his head drop more once his back muscles are a little stronger from the stretching exercises?


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Sod what he is doing with his head and start riding him from the back end forwards. Only when his back end is under him, his back rounded and him taking weight onto his inside hind leg wil you be able to ask him to lower and lengthen by releasing the contact. If you release the contact and the horse is working through from behind correctly then the horse will lower and lengthen whilst seaking out the contact. 

Where his head is has absolutly no relevance to building up a back unless you have him working through from behind properly.


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## phoenix (Jun 7, 2010)

He's just learning what contact is and is starting to use his back end more; that's what i've been trying to do at least, quite difficult on a horse with hip issues. All i wanted to know was how to get him to work long and low, which you answered so i'll try to get him working through from behind better.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Faye gave you great advice. My anwers are in red....



phoenix said:


> This is great info, just what i was looking for. I rode my boy bareback today and it's like sitting on a fence, the rest of him is quite round but his back, awful!
> 
> So how are you riding him then, if the "rest of him" is quite round, but his back? Are you riding his face first? I can only assume, without pictures or a video - that you are asking him to go into a false frame (meaning, making his head go into a pretty headset, without understanding how to make him work correctly)
> 
> ...


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## phoenix (Jun 7, 2010)

MIEventer, I tried to quote and it went a bit haywire so i'll reply here instead.

When i said round, i should really have said fat, sorry for the confusion. what i meant was the rest of him is fat but his back has lost definition and muscle/weight due to his weight loss, so he's thin in his back like a fence but his belly is "round".

he's not in a round frame by any stretch of the imagination, he's just now learning to use his body due to a long absence from work with a hip issue.

i don't have a coach right now unfortunately, i did in the past but then money became a little tight and it was either sell the horse and keep having lessons or keep the horse ad forfeit the lessons. As he was out of work then i figured i'd keep him around, i only really started working him again because he put on so much weight that i really had too.

I had my saddle looked at when i bought it and it seemed to fit him wuite well then. i should probably have it assessed again now he's yo-yoed in weight. As for my seat, i assumed it was quite quiet but i have had some back issues myself recently and have been fairly uncomfortable when riding so maybe i am causing him to drop his back. 

he does carrot stretches almost every day anyway bit adding the back lifts and massage sounds like it would be helpful. I don't have any hills to ride up here anyway so i'll have to skip those exercises until i can find a hill.

when i rode a few weeks ago i focussed on my position and just rode, i didn't think about how he looked or any of that and he went very nicely and searched for contact, he even gave a few bursts of energy from behind which is unusual for him (he's a fairly lazy horse). Like i said, he's just learning it and quite frankly i'm just learning it too; knowing all the ingredients is one thing, getting them to go together is taking a bit of practice.


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## Tymer (Dec 28, 2009)

MIE: Just wondering, why no hills in hand? I can come up with a bunch of explanations but to be honest I have no idea.

Not that it affects me anyway. We have one hill, fairly steep. We're not allowed to go up or down it ever since someone fell off and broke their pelvis on it. I'm still learning and I always want to learn more, though.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

> MIEventer, I tried to quote and it went a bit haywire so i'll reply here instead.


lol - no worries! I have done some major haywires myself! One time I was typing, and somehow, I ended up on some other website....



> When i said round, i should really have said fat, sorry for the confusion. what i meant was the rest of him is fat but his back has lost definition and muscle/weight due to his weight loss, so he's thin in his back like a fence but his belly is "round".


Ooooh I get ya! Understandable, thanks for clarifying. No worries. Nelson looses back definition quickly if I do not keep him on a regular exercise regime. 



> he's not in a round frame by any stretch of the imagination, he's just now learning to use his body due to a long absence from work with a hip issue.


Been there, done that! When Nelson injured his hind right due to kicking his stall back in January of 2010, we had a huuuuuuge absence from work. I'll have to show you pics.....

His hind right swelled up immensely, to the point of the pressure bursting thorugh 3 holes on the inside of his hock, which caused the swelling to disipitate, but yech...what a mess. It took quite some time to rehab him, and get him back to being rideable, and then getting him back into condition.



> i don't have a coach right now unfortunately, i did in the past but then money became a little tight and it was either sell the horse and keep having lessons or keep the horse ad forfeit the lessons. As he was out of work then i figured i'd keep him around, i only really started working him again because he put on so much weight that i really had too.


I understand, it is difficult to afford lessons, I am in the financial boat too, the Penny Pincher Club. I was out of lessons for almost over a year, to be perfectly honest, and I brought him back to condition all on my own. So long as you have a good understanding and a good foundation, you can do this. If not, there are many knowledgeable people here who are happy to help:

Anabel, Spyder, JDI, Maura, HalfPass, Kayty, Strange, Faye and many others.

Lets talk about feed - what is he eating? A diet high in protien will help - but to be honest, I am not a feed guru, with this subject, you want to talk with Luvs2Ride and other Equine Nutrition Guru's who are on this forum.



> I had my saddle looked at when i bought it and it seemed to fit him wuite well then. i should probably have it assessed again now he's yo-yoed in weight. As for my seat, i assumed it was quite quiet but i have had some back issues myself recently and have been fairly uncomfortable when riding so maybe i am causing him to drop his back


. 

Definately get it assessed, if you can. Call around, talk to as many Saddlers as you can, and find the best deal. I just spent $70 on a Saddler who came out to my barn, and spent 3ish hours with Nelson and I, and she did a very thorough job, and could not be happier....so while it is pricey, it is well worth the money. A good one will come out with a truck full of saddles, their equipment and a lot of knowledge and experience to help you. They will beable to tell you whether your saddle is working for the both of you, or not....and they'll watch you ride, watch how your horse moves and watch what you do in the saddle. I highly recommend it.

Maybe you can share Video footage? Or pics? To decipher what is going on exactly?



> he does carrot stretches almost every day anyway bit adding the back lifts and massage sounds like it would be helpful. I don't have any hills to ride up here anyway so i'll have to skip those exercises until i can find a hill.


That's great! Definately keep up with those! They are a huge help! I brought home the paper work that was given to me by my Chiro...let me get them on here for you....



> when i rode a few weeks ago i focussed on my position and just rode, i didn't think about how he looked or any of that and he went very nicely and searched for contact, he even gave a few bursts of energy from behind which is unusual for him (he's a fairly lazy horse). Like i said, he's just learning it and quite frankly i'm just learning it too; knowing all the ingredients is one thing, getting them to go together is taking a bit of practice.


 
Sounds like you are having some great moments! Keep it up! And I understand about getting the ingredients together, as David O'Connor says, it takes a million times of repetative work to fix 1 bad habit....so, we all have things to work on.

What the important thing is.....is that you know your faults, and want to improve on them. That is what makes you, a great equestrian 

Let me dig up pics of Nelson during his injury, and after for you...I can show you the before's and after's....


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Tymer said:


> MIE: Just wondering, why no hills in hand? I can come up with a bunch of explanations but to be honest I have no idea.
> 
> Not that it affects me anyway. We have one hill, fairly steep. We're not allowed to go up or down it ever since someone fell off and broke their pelvis on it. I'm still learning and I always want to learn more, though.


I feel, it is because you cannot get your horse to work correctly at hand, while doing the hill work, to ensure that they are developing and using the correct muscles. 

It is easy peasy for a horse to go up a hill with their head high, back dropped and pulling themselves up instead of pushing....but how can you correct that while being on the ground, leading them up and down? How can you ensure your horses back is lifted? Your horse is pushing themselves up, and using themselves properly?

That is why, I feel, that it is best do to hill work, when in saddle. That way, you can ask your horses back to come up into your seat, you can ask your horse to "round" and use the correct muslces, and can push themselves up, instead of pull.

And be limited with the hill work you do, very hard on your horses hocks. 

What is the BEST to do, is work on uneven terrain. Being an Eventer, I prefer this anyways. Hacking is phenominal as well, I love to hack - condition, condition, condition. 

But you as the rider, has to be sure that you are using yourself correctly, so that your horse can be using himself correctly as well.


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## phoenix (Jun 7, 2010)

Been there, done that! When Nelson injured his hind right due to kicking his stall back in January of 2010, we had a huuuuuuge absence from work. I'll have to show you pics.....


His hind right swelled up immensely, to the point of the pressure bursting thorugh 3 holes on the inside of his hock, which caused the swelling to disipitate, but yech...what a mess. It took quite some time to rehab him, and get him back to being rideable, and then getting him back into condition.

I'd love to see pics, i hate when horses get injured but it's great to see how bad it is and then how good they look after it's all healed up.

I understand, it is difficult to afford lessons, I am in the financial boat too, the Penny Pincher Club. I was out of lessons for almost over a year, to be perfectly honest, and I brought him back to condition all on my own. So long as you have a good understanding and a good foundation, you can do this. If not, there are many knowledgeable people here who are happy to help:

Anabel, Spyder, JDI, Maura, HalfPass, Kayty, Strange, Faye and many others.


I haven't taken lessons for a few years now. I was taking then at this fancy dressage barn around here and i got a good foundation with my seat and hands. i took months of lunge line lessons and even did a few schooling shows at intro level. I know t's not the best knowledge to be working my horse with but it's the best i've got right now so i'll go with what i've got. I've found this site very helpful with learning the theory behind how and why to ride it's just putting it to practice until i get it right at the same time my horse gets it right.

I saved up for months and got Jane Savoie's happy horse course and we're working through that. Phoenix did great with relearning the basics. now we're onto suppling.

Lets talk about feed - what is he eating? A diet high in protien will help - but to be honest, I am not a feed guru, with this subject, you want to talk with Luvs2Ride and other Equine Nutrition Guru's who are on this forum.

He's an easy keeper. gets fat on air pretty much. He's on turnout during the day right now so weeds out there. he gets 2 flakes of hay in the morning and 2 at night and he gets maybe a 1/4 cup of pellets with a vitamin supplement once a day and only because i feed him that. i don't entirely trust the barn people to feed him grain, once i went in an he had over a pound of grain in his tub and he was almost 250lbs overweight at the time. i stopped them feeding him grain and i do it now, but he doesn't get much at all. i'd love to be able to take better control of his feed but honestly i just don't know what i would give him or what would be good for a horse like him.

Definately get it assessed, if you can. Call around, talk to as many Saddlers as you can, and find the best deal. I just spent $70 on a Saddler who came out to my barn, and spent 3ish hours with Nelson and I, and she did a very thorough job, and could not be happier....so while it is pricey, it is well worth the money. A good one will come out with a truck full of saddles, their equipment and a lot of knowledge and experience to help you. They will beable to tell you whether your saddle is working for the both of you, or not....and they'll watch you ride, watch how your horse moves and watch what you do in the saddle. I highly recommend it.

Maybe you can share Video footage? Or pics? To decipher what is going on exactly?

i'll check around and see if anyone knows anyone i can call. i'm friends with a barn manager for a really nice barn in the area so she's sure to know someone. i'll get it looked at, it's just a simple wintec pro dressage saddle. i bought it second hand when he was out of work because a friend was selling it and honestly it was the only saddle i've tried on him that even remotely fit. it seems to ft me fine, the seat isn't to big or small and it's comfortable. At least i know it doesn't pinch him, his last saddle pinched quite a bit and he'd have these huge bucking fits, which is what led me to find out about his wonky hips.

i have video i guess. i set up a camera to record a ride in the smaller field we have here, i only set it up so i could see what i was doing wrong in my position and fix that. it's not a good video. i'm not sure if i have any pics of me riding recently, i don't think so. i could try and get some. i'm supposed to be going out to ride today if the pasture isn't soupy.

That's great! Definately keep up with those! They are a huge help! I brought home the paper work that was given to me by my Chiro...let me get them on here for you....

That sounds great!


Sounds like you are having some great moments! Keep it up! And I understand about getting the ingredients together, as David O'Connor says, it takes a million times of repetative work to fix 1 bad habit....so, we all have things to work on.

 he's a lot better when i'm focussed on fixing my issues, like my arms that i can't keep under control and keeping my leg back and my back as straight as i can get it (i have scoliosis, my hips tilt to the left which i guess is putting pressure on his back differently than if i was sitting correctly) 


What the important thing is.....is that you know your faults, and want to improve on them. That is what makes you, a great equestrian 

thanks


Let me dig up pics of Nelson during his injury, and after for you...I can show you the before's and after's....[/QUOTE]

Yes, please do. i'd love to see before and after!


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Ok - So back in January of 2010, I got a phone call from my BO at work, telling me that Nelson was found in his stall in the A.M with a massively swollen hind right leg. I called my Vet and she got out there ASAP and assessed and treated him, and called me on her way home from the barn stating that it was massive tissue damage and gave me a bunch of instructions.

I never got pics of the massive swelling - but we started treatment right away. Cold Poulticing, wrapping very cold polo's around his leg - and nothing seemed to be taking care of it. One morning, when the BO was taking his Cold Poultice Off, she found 3 holes on the inside of his hock where a ton of liquid was just pouring out.

So my Vet got back out there that morning, and started a whole new set of instructions and treatments. He was on stall rest for quite some time, put on Pennicillian and lots of medicated ointments, cleaning regimes and hand walking.

During this, he was stressing out, because he hates being left in his stall. He was being closely watched, but he ended up having a MASSIVE colic - the D word colic. It was in his secum *Sp* which is in his hind right gut, it was a 7 hour episode, to the point of my Vet shaking her head saying "I'm so sorry". He saved himself though, he was so tired from the ordeal, he collapsed in his stall after being hand walked, and due to his body collapsing, all that gas ended up bursting out. We called it the "phenominal phart" lol. He did 2 of them, and he saved his own ****. Thank God! I thought I was going to lose my Best Friend.

So, here he is after the ordeal:



















Here is his hind right hock:



















And then his hock after a few more weeks of consistant care:



















And then a couple more:










At that point, he was moving just fine on it. But you could see some stiffness. We took xrays in October, showing that he has arthritus in that hock, due to that injury - and now he is on Hock Injections, Stifle Injections and on a monthly dose of Adequan. We figured out what he did - we caught him in action too, which is during that time, Nelson had a Pony who's stall was right beside him, on his right side. Nelson does not like that Pony...and he would kick his stall wall, at the pony...so, badda bing, badda booom.....leg injury.

Thankfully I was able to move him, he's now inbetween 2 mares, and he's happy as can be *rolls eyes* lol.

So, once his leg was "clearing" up, I was able to put him back outside in a small paddock. He was out, with a large round bale *He incurred other issues due to the stall rest, ulcers being one of them.....* and he conditioned up a bit more due to being able to be outside and moving around.










And after another thorough Vet examination, he was given the clear to start under saddle work. I spent a MONTH doing just walk work. A MONTH, of doing just strait work. I was not allowed to do circles, or serpentines or any bending at all. All I did was Long And Low Work:




























I repeated and repeated and repeated, to the point of wanting to throw up - lol - but I had to for him. Then eventually we were able to move to trot work and circles and bending and diagonal work and canter work. Took a long time to develop, but we got there.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

So then finally we were given the OK to jump - and that's when I started to take lessons. That was about March - and we started out small and slow. He was doing great!

Then the snow melted, and we were able to start HACKING - your best cure I believe. Hacking develops so much for both horse and rider, and is so very benefitial! Lots of uneven terrain, where you can move on flat and hilly area's. 



















Here he is in the spring, around Aprilish - 










And then we started to Event, our first HT was in May, and we took 2nd, our next HT was in June, and we took 2nd, and our next HT was in the fall, and we took 1st. I couldn't be more proud of Nelson! 

He still has issues with that hock, sometimes it will lock, that's what brought on the injections and he's been doing great since *knock on wood*

You can see more of us, if you go to the Eventing Section where I have threads posted with pics and vids of our Eventing Season.



To here he is, the end result:










I have done a TON of work on that Top Line, and believe it or not, it still isn't perfect. It never will be. It is better than it ever has been before, but I wont get a topline on him like a 10 year old has, because he's 21 and he is, what he is. All I can do is make sure it stays as strong as it can be.

I do as many Carrot Stretches as I can, and I do a lot of Long And Low Work everytime we ride. Even when he was in his peak condition, we still did a lot of long and low work. Engagement, impulsion, getting him under himself, lifting his back and driving him forward into contact.


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## phoenix (Jun 7, 2010)

Wow! He's looking great for 21. That injury to his hick looked awful, when you said three holes i imagined three tiny little holes not three gaping massive ones! I'm glad he pulled through his colic.

I know how tiresome the long hours of just walking can be. when i brought phoenix back into work i started out with 10 minutes of walking, then 15, then 20... i increased like that up to i think almost 45 minutes of boring walking to get him moving again. then slowly introduced trot work. he does canter work on the lunge line but not under saddle yet, he counter canters and i want that out of him and him better balanced before i start under saddle. as soon as he gets unbalanced he gets frustrated and throws in a nice big buck. he'll get there eventually.

Maybe i'm not doing so much wrong after all, Phoenix walks around all stretched out long like that when he's doing a nice relaxing cool down walk. 

i'll look in the eventing section for videos of you guys, i don't jump or do cross country so i rarely look there.


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## MoheganSun (Dec 8, 2010)

Wow, what an awful injury! Great job with him, I'm so glad he's healed so nicely! And he is gorgeous! I would never have guessed his age. Is there much scarring?


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## barrelbeginner (Jan 31, 2012)

I feel like Im going to bump this thread.. because I think many people could still benifit from it


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## walkerlady44 (Apr 8, 2015)

I love this thread. I also have issues with a dropped back on my TWH gelding. He is 12y. I'm sure that bad saddle fit is the cause as his nutrition/weight are good. I retired him from showing about three years ago (he really didn't like rail work or showing in general, and I would rather have a happy horse than lots of ribbons!) I started doing lots of trail riding with him and he was golden! Never a spook, always a great ride, lots of wonderful gaiting etc. However, about a year ago he started really acting up...bucking, crowhopping, etc. His gaiting became inconsistent, his attitude lousy and became impossible to mount from my mounting block without someone holding him. At the time I was riding him in a western saddle with a pad designed to lift the saddle to give him lots of clearance to move his shoulders. I realize now the damage that whole setup was causing. Impinging on his hips, sacrum area causing (per my equine chiro) strained ligaments and possibly some muscle atrophy. And he was in pain. His top line has always been a little downhill, with his croup slightly higher than his withers. Since I've had him since birth, I know this is just his conformation. However his topline was always nice, with appropriate "fullness" along his spine. In the last year, his back is down and hollowed along the spine. With all this being said, I am working on stretches and having regular chiro and massage done. Mostly to relieve his discomfort. I


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