# Covid-19 facts & current stats, policies...



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

This thread is for the *facts about the disease & what is going on in the world*. As the very informative https://www.horseforum.com/general-...proaches-around-812919/page39/#post1970845815 thread has also got... so much besides in it, this should be a 'just to the point' thread.

Please try to keep to VERIFIED FACTS wherever possible (acknowledging it's not always able, given the lack of testing, lack of clinical studies, etc). If not verified, please try to keep to _objective_ info. IOW, we should try to minimise all the media/gov't noises, anecdotes, rumours, etc.

Whether or not it's verified, please state the source/reason for your belief in it. Eg. your qualifications/field, WHO information, studies read, stats, whatever.

Please state where you are in the world, what your current gov't/area policies are and the state of the disease in your area.

Please keep discussion to the facts where possible & avoid going off on tangents... which I myself am usually so good at doing in threads!

Fire away!


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

This article in Infection Control Today cites a study about how some health care workers wearing no protective equipment did not contract the disease from a patient.

https://www.infectioncontroltoday.c...sk-getting-covid-19-might-not-be-great-feared


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

https://www.mprnews.org/story/2020/03/14/number-of-covid19-cases-in-minnesota-grows-to-21

Here's the link to latest in MN on what's going on here. I'm way North of where cases have been confirmed. No cases confirmed in my county yet. 

I read somewhere all schools will be closing for two weeks in MN. Think that's effective starting tomorrow.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

C/o @Spanish Rider...

Testing: At this point, testing is old news in Europe. In 5-10 days time, in many areas (I have only been monitoring Massachusetts), testing will become SUPERFLUOUS and OBSOLETE. Those with suspected symptoms will be told to self-quarantine. Those with fever will be prescribed paracetamol/Tylenol, fluids and lots of TV/a good book. You will be told NOT TO GO TO THE HOSPITAL unless you have dyspnea/chest pain.

In 5-10 days time, testing will only be used for patients with pneumonia in order to identify the pathogen and treat accordingly. Forget about the testing. Only the most serious cases need it, and hospitals need the kits.


Confinement: Everyone needs to be prepared to confine for several weeks, if not months. In 5-10 days time, only essential workers will be allowed on the streets. Offices will be closed, banks will be closed, workers will be sent home. You Will still be able to go to the supermarket and pharmacy. In certain cities, you might be lucky enough to be able to walk your dog. Stop worrying about your rent, your mortgage, your car payment. If you are healthy, your family is healthy, your animals are healthy and you have enough food to feed them all, DING, DING, DING, you're a pandemic winner!!!


Children, teens and youth are asymptomatic carriers.


Dry cough is a fallacy. There are many patients with sputum/wet cough.


The death rate among those over the age of 60 is 6%. (Oxford study)


Infected healthcare professionals are a given. If they are young, they will not know they are infected. The older ones, with the constant exposure to high viral loads, exhaustion and any morbidities, will have increased risk of death.


Mean viral shedding in survivors is 20 days, so the 15-day quarantine is not long enough. (Wuhan study in The Lancet published on the 11th)


Hypertension and systemic corticosteroid use are associated with death. (same study as above)


Incubation before presentation of symptoms can be up to 27 days.


Fever may not appear until days 2-8


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

loosie said:


> Mean viral shedding in survivors is 20 days, so the 15-day quarantine is not long enough. (Wuhan study in The Lancet published on the 11th)


There is conflicting information on this.
From another study: Their results were that although people continue to shed the virus, it is not infectious after about ten days.


> Importantly, the scientists could not grow viruses from throat swabs or sputum specimens after day 8 of illness from people who had mild infections.


https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/09/people-shed-high-levels-of-coronavirus-study-finds-but-most-are-likely-not-infectious-after-recovery-begins/


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## cbar (Nov 27, 2015)

Facts for where I am in Alberta Canada: just read an article that they are seeing community spread of the disease. Folks who have it have not traveled or been in contact with anyone who has recently traveled. 
https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/cana...-travel-previous-cases/ar-BB11g0bp?li=AAggNb9

Folks who have just returned from out of the country must abide by a 14 day quarantine. I do hope that people actually follow this. 

Last night, radio announcement from our province that all schools, universities, colleges and daycares are now closed. Teachers are still going to the schools, however it sounded as though if the schools closed they would remain closed until September. 

It has been noted that there are 56 cases of COVID-19 in Alberta with 17 of them just confirmed in 2 days.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

From Spanish Rider;

Day 8 since the first cases in my province, Day 5 of our home lockdown, Day 3 of State of Alarm:

*Reported cases (only reliable data on those being treated) jumped by more than 1,000 cases in Spain yesterday.*

Total of 9,191 cases, 40% requiring hospitalization.

Death rate is 3% (again, little or no data on mildest cases self-quarantining or asymptomatic cases).

Government projects an exponential increase of cases over the next 10 days.

*State of Alarm will be maintained for more than 15 days.*


Italy: 24,603 known infected, 1,809 known deaths, 2,335 known cures


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

ABC interview with Dr Norman Swan in Australia - medical expert, NOT politician. 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03...dRq9q__ZjDCGH0FgpsNkW5AFivdjbP_zqaQXX7x__8DXc


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph...ona-simulator/


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

From Spanish Rider yesterday; 
Day 3 of confinement:

Reports from Madrid are that all ICUs are full. Colleagues in Madrid and Toledo report that testing is no longer being done and all patients are being considered positive for C-19. Testing is only being done for patients with pneumonia to confirm C-19 before administering antivirals and directed therapies. Reports of 'dry cough' are a fallacy; all types of cough are being seen.

The President has authorized the army to perform 'policing functions'.

No one allowed on the streets. Only to go to hospital, supermarket or gas station, or those who are 'essential workers' (police, fire, medical staff, truckers, sanitation, supermarket/gas station workers and anyone associated with production and supply chain of food, medicines, etc.).


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Another fun fact from Spanish;

Another factor in the behavior of viruses that we have not discussed here is viral load.

*The viral load is the amount of virus a patient has been exposed to*, ranging anywhere from picking up a small amount of virus from touching a doorknob and then transferring to their face by scratching their nose to a massive load by cohabitating with/caring for infected patients unprotected and over a longer period of time.

We are receiving reports that the role of *viral load in C-19 patients is very significant.* In addition to ill seniors, they are also now treating younger patients with high viral loads and very acute symptoms, requiring hospitalization and even intubation.


Another datum of interest mentioned in the Chinese The Lancet article from last week are the sequelae or *after-effects of the virus*. Just because acute patients survive does not mean that they will have the same lung function as before. _*Lung damage from the virus can mean that a higher percetage of survivors than expected will require lung transplantation.*_ Of course, there are no clear data on this in terms of percentages, ages or comorbidities. As I have said before, clinicians are busy saving lives, not writing about it, and we still have no national or international COVID-19 registry.

The ER physician from Granada (Andalusia) also mentioned the lung damage that they were seeing, especially in patients with high viral loads. He compared it to cirrhosis of the liver.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

And this is Australia. Well, from a government source - A medic from Sydney just said current no. was 401 but she didn't give her source. And baring in mind what we know of the sporadic testing, etc...

https://www.health.gov.au/news/heal...s-covid-19-current-situation-and-case-numbers


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

SERBIA CURRENT STATE OF AFFAIRS 
from Horsef

Serbia: We are currently 70 cases so about 11 days behind Spain. No deaths so far.

This is what has been done so far:

- nobody over 65 is allowed out at all. Groceries and medication are being delivered to them.

- nobody is allowed out between 20:00-05:00 - this had to be done to stop youth from having a ball all over the country. We can’t even walk our dogs during that time.

- borders closed for foreigners 3 days ago. It appears they don’t want to close them for our citizens.

- Shops are fully stocked at all times except for disinfectants which are rationed, if you can find them. Yes, we even have -gasp! - Toilet paper. There was some panic buying but Serbia is a poor country and not many people can afford gazillion rolls of TP.

- military barracks and remote hotels have been prepared for isolation of people who have been in contact with infected. They tried home isolation, it didn’t work. Out of 7000 people they put on those orders, 2500 were not found at home when the police went around to check on them. So people need to be under armed guard to comply. Ah, well.

- all public transport will cease tomorrow.

- of course, no schools, universities.

- all sports venues have been closed, including equestrian.


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## kewpalace (Jul 17, 2013)

CA numbers as of 6 pm 3/17/20:



> As of March 17, 2020, 6 p.m. Pacific Daylight Time, there are a total of 598 positive cases and 13 deaths in California (including one non-California resident). This total does not include passengers from the Grand Princess cruise ship currently docked in Oakland.
> 
> Ages of all confirmed positive cases:
> 
> ...


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

This is not medical updates, but updates for citizens of the USA along with residents of Florida heard today..think I got it all straight.


I listened to the White House briefing during lunch...


*USA - Canadian border is closed to all non-essential travel to protect everyone. Business trucking is permitted it sounds like but no personal trips for the foreseeable future.

*Expect the number of sick to climb dramatically the next several days as the back-log of testing is now near caught up, resulting in big number jumps.

*The government has on stand-by over 10,000 respirators besides what is in hospitals already, manufacturers have been contacted and orders for "many" more have been placed with critical time delivery paramount. No definitive of how many more ordered, but government orders are not small...

*Government again has contacted our manufacturing companies and placed orders for tens of thousands in extra protective equipment of masks, gowns, eye-protection besides utilizing our kept stores of supplies. Companies contacted confident of meeting, surpassing the orders placed quickly plus more.

*2 huge hospital ships are finishing being fitted with supplies and leave port to speed one to the west coast, one to the east coast to offer specialized support for over-burdened hospitals they know are going to be bursting with sick, really sick.

*Financial support is coming..hang in there. Numbers are not firm, that is still being worked on as are how many "checks" will be sent to help. Sounds as if next week will be first of "help" financial to arrive.

*Foreclosures and "put to the curb" evictions now on hold, can't occur for 30 days?

*Many utilities will not turn off power to homeowners, but talk to them please.

*Internet access in my state, Florida, has been opened to all who have school-age and college children _free._

*Schools here are going to on-line instruction for many counties as mandated no public or private schools may open till earliest is April 15th...I suspect most schools will not reopen this year at all as end of year is mid May for most of the state in K -12 here...children need their education to continue. 
In my county all students grades 6 - 12 have school supplied laptops so that is not a issue.

*Commencement ceremonies sadly are all cancelled..

*Restaurants, most have now closed dining but carry-out is available to protect as many as possible.
Maximum of 50 patrons inside and 6' of space between anyone is mandated..

*All fast-food places tonight close inside dining, drive-through only available.
Take-out food and take it home discounts I'm seeing many places offering.

*Stores such as Walmart are not closed but have severely cut back hours...
Limiting paper good supplies and cleaning products as hoarders just don't get it or enough it seems.
Food trucks are arriving several times a day packed with everything, employees need a chance to get it on shelves that first must be sanitized before refilling...time consuming but items are there in stock rooms waiting to get on the floor to the shelves.

*Our area banks have closed lobbies, drive-up only is open. Must make a appointment to go inside if closing a mortgage or for that kind of banking needed done.

_Those were the big ones...both from local and federal levels today._
_Words in closing from officials were, *we will not let this win.*_

_hlg..._


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## SwissMiss (Aug 1, 2014)

horselovinguy said:


> *Expect the number of sick to climb dramatically the next several days as the *back-log of testing is now near caught up,* resulting in big number jumps.


I am sorry, but the bolded part makes me roll my eyes. There are _way_ too few tests to even make a dent. Here, tests are only performed with ppl that present with severe symptoms or nursing staff with symptoms (to determine if they can keep on working or not)…
Everyone with respiratory symptoms is asked to call telehealth - and they will basically tell you to self-quarantine, without "wasting" a test...


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

SwissMiss said:


> I am sorry, but the bolded part makes me roll my eyes. There are _way_ too few tests to even make a dent. Here, tests are only performed with ppl that present with severe symptoms or nursing staff with symptoms (to determine if they can keep on working or not)…



_I think this is true everywhere._
A new version of the test now exists too they spoke of, one that takes a fraction of time to get results and they spoke of a self-swabbing test to appear soon...
For all intent and purposes..just self-imposed confinement works to keep you safest away from germs I would hope.
All should have a reaction of "I'm contagious and stay home".

If you must go out, wear gloves, don't touch your face till you get to wash it and change your clothes immediately {wash them in soapy detergent to kill germs}...stay away from clusters of people.
Need to buy food...get in and get out ASAP. 
Wash food containers/items purchased before you use it or put it in your cabinet since you don't know who else touched it... :|
Otherwise what is so important it can't wait...:icon_rolleyes:...nothing!

_hlg... _


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

State of Victoria Communicable Disease warning.

A state of emergency has been declared for Victoria from 16 March 2020 to 13 April 2020. 

Impacts in your area:

All non-essential gatherings of 500 or more people in Victoria are prohibited from 16 March 2020 to 13 April 2020.
For more information: www.dhhs.vic.gov.au/coronavirus-covid-19-transmission-reduction-measures. 


What authorities are doing:

New restrictions for indoor venues come into effect at 5pm today and will mean that any gatherings at venues that have more than 100 people cannot occur this includes venues like restaurants, pubs, or cinemas. 
Additional cleaning is now in place on public transport. Mass transport should be avoided by people vulnerable to the virus, including the elderly.
The Victorian Government is urging employers to consider staggered work times and remote working arrangements to reduce overcrowding at peak travel times.
Victoria’s Chief Health Officer is not recommending school closures at this time.
For more information about actions that the Victorian government is taking visit: www.dhhs.vic.gov.au/coronavirus-covid-19-daily-update.

This message was issued by Chief Health Officer.


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

Here are the current stats in the Philippines. 

I have no doubt that the numbers are low due to lack of test kits and labs to read them. 

The cases are centered in Manila. In mid March, the President put Manila under quarantine, but gave several days notice. There was a mass exodus from the city ahead of the cutoff. Local news sources report a few isolated cases in outlying provinces. 

A few days ago, the President put the entire island of Luzon under quarantine. The island of Cebu closed its seaports, but not its airport. 

Locally, people are supposed to stay at home. One member of the household, under 60 and over 18, can go out for groceries, medical needs, or to the bank. In our area, folks seem to be complying with that. 

We are an oddity here, in that there is no one in our household under 60. I got a pass last weekend to get supplies. I was stopped at 2 checkpoints but with no problems. I’m due another supply run in a few days. 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/philippines/


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

Here is a map of the current cases in the Philippines. I did not know that it had spread to the other islands. 

We live in the, so far, uninfected area on the eastern part of the large northern island of Luzon. However, Nueva Ecija, with 2 cases borders us on the south. 

The one case in Tuguegarao rode a bus from Manila to Tuguegarao. The bus company said there were 49 passengers on the bus. There is a government and social media effort to notify those passengers. 

Metro Manila is listed as NCR (National Capital Region) on the map.


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## redbadger (Nov 20, 2017)

Massachusetts (USA) governor ordered nonessential businesses to close by 8pm on 3/23, and the "stay at home" advisory (not order) went into effect on 3/24 at noon. This is in addition to restrictions of gatherings of people. Schools in the state remain closed. 

Our EMS protocols have changed, discouraging use of nebulizers and CPAP unless absolutely necessary, and with appropriate PPE. My company has declared that providers will wear at least a surgical mask for all patient encounters, but we'll only get one per day, assigned to us. 

The state has also made it easier for doctors, nurses and PA's to practice at multiple hospitals.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Wyoming has 44 cases. No deaths. No new cases in the last 24 hours.

Based on cell phone signals, a company back east ranked Wyoming 50th for social distancing and staying home. That is inaccurate since we can both travel out of necessity, and not see or interact with anyone, quite easily. 

I travel 38 miles each way to work and never see a traffic light. I used to travel 180 miles to work each week and never see a traffic signal. Just not many people here.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

redbadger said:


> Our EMS protocols have changed, discouraging use of nebulizers and CPAP unless absolutely necessary, and with appropriate PPE.



Why would nebulizers and CPAP be discouraged?


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

trailhorserider said:


> Why would nebulizers and CPAP be discouraged?


Both of those can aerosolize the virus, making it airborne and easier to catch.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

loosie said:


> Just because acute patients survive does not mean that they will have the same lung function as before. _*Lung damage from the virus can mean that a higher percetage of survivors than expected will require lung transplantation.*_ Of course, there are no clear data on this in terms of percentages, ages or comorbidities. As I have said before, clinicians are busy saving lives, not writing about it, and we still have no national or international COVID-19 registry.
> 
> The ER physician from Granada (Andalusia) also mentioned the lung damage that they were seeing, especially in patients with high viral loads. He compared it to cirrhosis of the liver.


It was also common with SARS, which is a worse coronavirus than the one we have going around now (10% mortality rate). Thankfully they were able to stop that one quickly.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1829448/


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## redbadger (Nov 20, 2017)

gottatrot said:


> trailhorserider said:
> 
> 
> > Why would nebulizers and CPAP be discouraged?
> ...


Yes, this exactly.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Here're the Australian figures today. Yesterday's total was about 2300 & 466 cases in Victoria...

26th March
Of the 2,799 confirmed cases in Australia, 11 have died from COVID-19. More than 178,000 tests have been conducted across Australia.

Australian Capital Territory 53

New South Wales 1,219

Northern Territory 8

Queensland 493

South Australia 235

Tasmania 40

Victoria 520

Western Australia 231

Total** 2,799


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

Philippines:
Our province of Nueva Vizcaya had our first confirmed case yesterday. In our municipality actually. Sadly, the patient was also our first death from the virus. 

The patient was 65 years old, with no history of travel. However, they had been at a wake attended by people who were visiting from outside the country. 

The notice was in a Facebook post from the governor, so I can’t post it here. 

Isolation goes directly against Filipino culture. Most folks also do not have room to store a cache of emergency supplies. Some young people I know (20s-30s) are under constant pressure from their elders to go out and make several stops to get this and that. It is a severe breach of etiquette to defy your elders here. 

I think we are in for a long bumpy ride.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

gottatrot said:


> Both of those can aerosolize the virus, making it airborne and easier to catch.





redbadger said:


> Yes, this exactly.


Today I read this: _"Early reports from Lombardy in Italy suggest around 50% of patients given CPAP have avoided the need for invasive mechanical ventilation."_ 

*
Please check out this article:*

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-52087002


I was surprised by CPAP or nebulizers being discouraged because I think they have saved my Mom's life on more than one occasion. I think they both make a tremendous difference to people with breathing issues and/or pneumonia! Albuterol is pretty much a miracle drug in my opinion.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

trailhorserider said:


> I was surprised by CPAP or nebulizers being discouraged because I think they have saved my Mom's life on more than one occasion. I think they both make a tremendous difference to people with breathing issues and/or pneumonia! Albuterol is pretty much a miracle drug in my opinion.


Even if they are not being used as much by EMS, as far as I've seen they are being used as often once people get to the hospital. I think they are just minimizing it with ambulance staff to protect them from exposure in the field.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

24 common COVID myths explored:

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/coronavirus-myths-explored


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## redbadger (Nov 20, 2017)

gottatrot said:


> Even if they are not being used as much by EMS, as far as I've seen they are being used as often once people get to the hospital. I think they are just minimizing it with ambulance staff to protect them from exposure in the field.



We're allowed to use it, it's just discouraged. (Some providers have interpreted this to mean "never use it, ever"). Personally, I'm frustrated by the suggestion that I just give the patient a "diesel bolus" (drive real fast) and hope they don't crash on the way, or wait til they *do* crash and then sedate & intubate them. It doesn't feel like any choice at all - either treat as you would and risk infecting yourself, avoid treatment and risk the patient crashing?


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Well poo....

Virginia Governor Ralph Northam issued a stay-at-home order Monday.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Here in Wyoming many of us are disgusted by the number of tourists who are coming. Like having to stay home from work + schools being closed = vacation! 

The Crow Rez, north of here, isn't letting non-locals leave the highways. I don't blame them. There is a clinic, with good services. But no hospital beds. There is a small hospital, but anyone very ill would have to go more than an hour north or south to get full care.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Interestingly the aus-wide site doesn't give numbers of recovered. But the Vic info below does. And the 'curve' is flattening! 

*
Australia 30 March* 
From www.health.gov.au

there have been 4,245 confirmed cases of COVID-19 in Australia. There have been 279 new cases since 3:00pm yesterday.

Of the 4,245 confirmed cases in Australia, 18 have died from COVID-19. More than 226,000 tests have been conducted across Australia.

Confirmed cases*
Australian Capital Territory 78
New South Wales 1,918
Northern Territory 14
Queensland 689
South Australia 305
Tasmania 65
Victoria 821
Western Australia 355
Total** 4,245


*Victoria, Australia*
From www.dhhs.vic.gov.au website;

The total number of coronavirus (COVID-19) cases in Victoria is 821 *– an increase of 56 from yesterday. Four people have already died, many more are in hospital or self-isolating at home.

The total number of cases includes 447 men and 370 women, with people aged from three to 88.

There are 26 confirmed cases of COVID-19 in Victoria that may have been acquired through community transmission. More than 42,000 Victorians have been tested to date.

Currently 29 people are in hospital, including four patients in intensive care. Two hundred and forty-eight people have recovered.

Of the total 821 cases, there have been 653 in metropolitan Melbourne and 146 in regional Victoria.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Yes it is more likely to kill the elderly or those with compromised health issues *BUT* young people can and do get it and are very sick. A 21 year old girl died here and she had no health issues. So youngsters are not immune to this virus. 

It is readily spread between people, some seem to be immune from it, others can be carriers thus unwittingly infecting those around them .

Stats for RTAs are over the last year, might be way higher than Coviid-19 but that has only just started. 

Look at Italy and then Spain, the figures are way higher and unless people take care *and follow th guide lines,* statistics will soon alter as to the numbers infected climb.


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

To be very honest I hate to see those posts stating - don't panic it only affects those old and with pre-existing conditions. Really? So if you think of yourself not falling into those categories it's OK to not follow guidelines?

I am 49 years old and by all accounts in really good health. BUT I just had a hip replacement on March 6, 2020 that puts me in the high risk category because my body is acclimating to a foreign implant. Mayo Clinic has called me, emailed me and sent letters confirming I should take all precautions necessary to avoid getting this virus. But by looking at me you would not know I am high risk. My 6'3" 230ln son who is in excellent health and works in Agriculture in a very physical is high risk - he has asthma but not bad enough to have an inhaler.

The pandemic is unprecedented in modern history - those downplaying it are not really helping themselves or anyone else. Of course, we should keep things in perspective but I for one don't want to be the one to infect anyone or be infected by someone.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Just to throw in some statistics. 

Italy. 101,739 cases 11,591 deaths. 

At one time 56% recovered 44% died. 

Now 95% mild cases, 5% critical. 

Spain. 85,195 cases, 7,340 deaths

At one time 70% recovered 30% died. 

Now, 91% mild cases 9% critical. 

In the U.K.
March 25 1,452 new cases
26. 2,129. ". "
27. 2,885. ". "
28. 2,546. ". "
29. 2,433. ". "
30. 2,619. ". " 

We have been warned it may well get worse before it gets better.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

I don't have numbers, or stats like your thread requested but do have to wonder...
Are the areas being affected later gaining knowledge from their predecessors in how to slow-the-flow of the virus? Is that why appearances of flattening the curve may be happening sooner where areas affected earlier are still in epidemic outbreak status occurring...
Are those affected later gaining help sooner with test kits since manufacturing is now in full-speed ahead mode?
We all know car manufacturing plants along with other industry have shuttered their plants and re-vamped them to make vents as fast as they can to send to areas where people are literally gasping for air and dying cause they can't breathe...
Pharmaceutical companies have halted other medicine production, turning their complete operations or near it to making pills/liquids known to have some helping effect...
I would truly hope that countries just now starting the curse of this virus learn from nations previously who still fight on and lose to many people of all ages from young and old, healthy and sickly...
This virus picks on everyone no matter sex, color of skin, nationality, wealthy or poor, man, women or child.
Our front line workers...EMS, firefighters, police, nurses, doctors, support staff in hospitals to the grocery store clerk, singer/songwriters, Prince Charles, to actors and actresses all have gotten and many have died, some survived to tell a chilling tale scary to read and horrifying to live-it...but they live.

This is not the first horrific virus to sweep the world, but this one is different and for whatever the reason has caused panic among nations like no other in past history.
Is it internet hype, news media non-stop coverage and only the bad is often spoken of...
_I don't know..._
I'm not naive enough to not know some of this is from media exposure but as said, this one is different in how rational people reacted, panic purchasing goods from stores and left their common-sense home...
Yes, toilet paper hoarding is beyond my understanding here in the US, not sure if hoarding of TP is happening elsewhere.
So far from what I can decipher is we still don't know much about this virus in terms of what attracts it to certain people and not others.
How long is the virus alive if outside the body, in the body, contagions, and afterward if you had it are you immune or a carrier...so many unknowns.
Things the world authorities on illnesses can't answer, grasping at guesses but no truly understood/known facts...
I was not in panic-mode, still am not. I _am_ greatly concerned though like I have never been before in any crisis illness affecting billions of humans world-wide.
I am listening to authorities, working hard to keep to myself on my property with my family, go to stores to buy food only if I must...My family & I became hermits trying to not get sick.
I wave at my neighbors, we yell greetings to each other, we talk but _do not talk within 150 feet of each other..._
I do think people are finding out, discovering what we thought was so important in our lives truly is not...
To me, the good that seems to be coming is family is coming together talking, communicating and relying on each other again.
Prayer, if you are not seeking out something/someone to keep you safe...don't know what you will find more life-threatening...think people are going to return to churches in celebration when it is safe to do so..
I think we shifted our focus back in alignment of faith, family and friends from the commercial world of outside influences and who to put worship status on in sports, celebrities, and what do they really mean in our daily life.

I know none of this is "facts, stats or such" as this thread is named and asked to make posts of that sort...in actuality _not_ a post like this one...
But I am also human and realize that we all have brains, pondering thoughts similar to mine and far more intellectual than mine, scientific than mine...
There is no comparison, nothing to use as a happened before cause never has the world encountered something that has touched every place on Earth with very few exceptions....and this is not done expanding, searching out new victims and morphing again to new strains is also whispered of...
I just hope that as fast as this took over our near every waking moment it disappears, never to return or cause harm to any.
_*Be safe, be well my friends...*_with that, my apologies for not sticking to the topic of facts, stats and policies as asked...today those facts, figures and policies change so fast that as you write they are obsolete with new chilling information shared. 

I pray there are enough :Angel: for every being on this planet to fold us in wings of protection.

*hlg.*


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

*MODERATOR NOTE:*

When posting in any thread please remember to abide by the horse forum Rules. There are a few posts on this thread that are steering the conversation off-course. As a courtesy to folks who have joined in late and maybe have only read the last couple posts or pages - the Original Post has been Quoted below.

Thank you for your understanding.



loosie said:


> This thread is for the *facts about the disease & what is going on in the world*. As the very informative https://www.horseforum.com/general-...proaches-around-812919/page39/#post1970845815 thread has also got... so much besides in it, this should be a 'just to the point' thread.
> 
> Please try to keep to VERIFIED FACTS wherever possible (acknowledging it's not always able, given the lack of testing, lack of clinical studies, etc). If not verified, please try to keep to _objective_ info. IOW, we should try to minimise all the media/gov't noises, anecdotes, rumours, etc.
> 
> ...



Reference: Rule 26 - Sidetracking and 'Hijacking' Threads


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

from @gottatrot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanish Rider 


> @ACinATX , my expertise is surgery, so anything more than basic virology and immunlogy escape me, but what appears to be the problem in younger people is being exposed to greater viral loads, which in turn trigger a massive inflammatory response known as a "cytokine storm". It is a defense mechanism of our immune system and, unfortunately, the younger and healthier you are, the greater the protective immune reaction (massive 'storm') and the greater the inflammation in the lungs...


I haven't read that younger people are more likely to show signs of cytokine storm. However, it's not likely to be related to the amount of virus in the body, rather the body's response to a viral trigger.

Cytokines are proteins that help the immune system response against infection. They help the body trigger inflammation, which makes the cells needed to fight infection rush to the area of insult, such as the lungs. Unfortunately, while on a normal level this is very helpful, in some people the response is overblown, similar to how people with allergies have exaggerated immune responses that are unhelpful.

There are a couple of reasons why children and younger people might have less serious responses in general to Covid19. One is that their immune systems are immature, so they are less likely to have an exaggerated immune response. Another is that older people may already have antibodies to coronaviruses since they are a common source of colds. However, these will be the wrong antibodies for Covid19, so the body can be lulled into thinking it recognizes the infection and not go into action until the virus has already taken over.

There is some evidence that a certain cell mutation can make people more likely to have Cytokine storm, which has been known to happen in response to certain medications as well as 80 or more pathogens. Every ICU should be watching patients for this type of response, which is a type of SIRS or Systemic Inflammatory Response Syndrome. It is commonly seen with sepsis and flu, so all ICUs should be well versed in taking care of it.
H1N1 in particular was known for triggering exaggerated Cytokine release.

I like this idea of mass testing people for Covid antibodies. It would be a way to preserve the economy while also protecting people from getting sick. Anyone with antibodies could be released to go back to work and keep things going.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/dr-jon-...rus-infection/


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

From Spanish Rider

And we should not forget that every infected person going to the hospital for treatment exposes healthcare workers to higher and higher viral loads, putting their lives at risk.

Italy has now had 61 physicians and nurses die. In Spain, we've already had several - just yesterday a GP near our rural town who was only 29 years old.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Another from Spanish...

The GOOD news is that the OMS debunked the aerosol theory (there was a report that the virus could remain airborn for 3h, but the aerosol was machine-generated), so we once again need to focus only on droplets. https://www.who.int/news-room/commen...ecommendations


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

MD just issued a stay-at-home order yesterday. 

However, we are still able to go see our horses (some barns shut down, but not all, I board at a private facility) & do outdoor activities, but with no more than 10 people.


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

Comparison: standard flu season vs Covid19 mortality in Italy 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...eason-may-solve-mystery-of-coronavirus-deaths

Basically, they still haven’t reached the numbers from three years ago and this year they had a very mild flu season.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

NSW, Australia just locked down as of today.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

*Australian stats;* 4,864 cases to date. 337 recovered. 21 deaths. So, while remains to be seen how the rest go, the death rate is currently low. And the numbers of new cases leveled off about 10 days ago & have been dropping since; 











*Victoria Australia;*

The total number of coronavirus (COVID-19) cases in Victoria is 968 – an increase of 51 from yesterday. 

Four people have already died in Victoria, many more are in hospital or self-isolating at home.

The total number of cases includes 526 men and 438 women. Cases range in age from babies to their early nineties.

There are 39 confirmed cases of COVID-19 in Victoria that may have been acquired through community transmission. More than 47,000 tests have been conducted to date.

Currently 32 people are in hospital – including six patients in intensive care – and 343 people have recovered. 

Of the total 968 cases, there have been 771 in Melbourne and 183 in regional Victoria.


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

@loosie Do you have any idea how they classify who died of Covid19? That is a very low rate so I would be inclined to think that they don’t classify everyone who died WITH Covid19 as a victim of the virus.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

I think we will have better stats once things get calmed down. Just like people will hopefully realize the virus is not airborne and they don't need to wear respirators in stores.

Australia may be linking causality more appropriately than some. Drug overdoses, people who end up on ventilators because of alcohol withdrawal, liver failure deaths from hepatitis, traumas, none of those with covid would have deaths caused by the virus.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

horsef...most people die from complications of the virus...not from the virus itself.
Respiratory failure, cardiac arrest are sadly common.


_*Today the governor of Florida issued a state-wide order of stay-at-home and lock-down.*_
I was at work when it was issued...
I have not seen the news yet tonight but earlier heard 1000 new cases confirmed announced in our state. People just can't seem to understand they need to stay home not be wandering around Walmart with kids in tow because they are bored at home and not know what to do with their kids, seniors are bored so prowl the stores.
No play-dates for kids, no get togethers for elders...

I believe with this order it will also allow stores to limit how many enter to shop, _if they enter _or maybe enact handing a written list to a store employee and they will pick your items, ring them and you do the slip the credit card through the hand-held machine never needing to step out of your vehicle as food will be loaded for you..
Human food stores, animal feed stores, vets, doctors, pharmacy...places that humans depend upon to survive will remain open. 
Restaurants with take-out service may still serve. 
No one though needs to go inside most store establishments but can order and have curb--side delivery to the vehicle done. 

Somehow they must keep people away from each other.._.they just must._

_hlg.._


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Horsef said:


> @loosie Do you have any idea how they classify who died of Covid19? That is a very low rate so I would be inclined to think that they don’t classify everyone who died WITH Covid19 as a victim of the virus.


I know that's very(suspiciously? dunno, but don't want to start a debate here on opinions) low death rate, and none reported in Vic at least for... I think a couple of weeks. I do know that 2 of the deaths were older people in a particular Melbourne hospital & they had blood cancer. I don't watch/read mainstream media any more, but know this because my sister's father in law has just been diagnosed with blood cancer & my husband asked which hospital he was in, hoping it wasn't that one(it wasn't).


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## AuG (Aug 18, 2019)

@Horsef Australia is in a unique position being so isolated from the rest of the world. We have had good, clear, leadership through this. WA is expanding testing as most cases were directly related to overseas travel/cruise ships. We are still behind the rest of the world at this stage in terms of the virus spread.

More room, less people, and a regional population that can't afford international travel. Regions have now shut but the virus is already here. It will kill off a lot more people once it gets into the vulnerable communities (like mine) with an aged and disabled population. Not to mention food shortages in remote aboriginal communities, many of which have very high rates of diabetes due to the poor availability of fresh food. For now, the virus is concentrated in the wealthy areas that have the best health care available. 

Western Australia stats - 
15,130 tested negative
392 confirmed covid 19
2 deaths
64 recovered


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

AuG said:


> We have had good, clear, leadership through this.


Can only assume you're talking WA only. But as said previously, this is not the forum for political discussion...


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## AuG (Aug 18, 2019)

Righto, didn't realise that it was a political statement. I'll stick to the policy and stats graphics that are circulating Australia for this thread. (unable to re-size on this forum, apologies)


















https://twitter.com/ausgov









https://www.youtube.com/user/healthgovau

There is an advertising campaign on free to air tv and an app. A text message went out with advice and there are radio adverts as well. These sorts of posters are all over town and all over social media, unavoidable. ABC and SBS news both provide great coverage.

My states stats in graphic - 









It is really fantastic to have this. There are many non English speakers and low levels of education where I am, and this line of advice is proving effective despite that. I feel very lucky to live here, and am pleased that people are becoming kinder to the unemployed where I am. The boosts to welfare payments were needed and will help the health of people in these areas provided food and care continues into rural towns. The doctors and general store have pulled out of my town, but we are only an 80km round trip to the next closest GP and food store. It is certainly a better situation here than up north.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Copied from Spanish again...

*IMPORTANT*:

New COVID19 symptoms are being seen by dermatologists here in Spain, especially among teens & children. These include hives/urticaria and edema/redness/blisters on fingers and toes.


Also, there is a new study underway in South Korea of 51 patients who were 'cured', tested negative, and had recurrences. Their 'CDC' is considering these cases "possible reactivations".
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...orean-cdc-says


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Here in OK we have 3.9 million population. 

2069 confirmed cases as of today, tomorrow should be close to 2200. Our projected surge date is 4/21. 
99 Covid Deaths
457 hospitalized, our models show a roughly 50/50 split between hospitalizations and those in ICU/Vent dependent cases. So about 225 of each. 

My county is up to 29 cases, still no deaths. I suspect that they are not counting deaths where no testing was done before the person passed, and maybe not counting those who pass while waiting results. For a while it took over a week to get results, now I think we're pretty much at around 24 hrs. Be nice when they get that 15 min test, like the flu ones we use. 

To contrast the Covid with Flu, since some folks are still insisting this is just another flu type virus. From Sept 1, 2019 through March 28, 2020 we've had 3455 flu hospitalizations with 83 flu death. We're still seeing flu and hospitalizations so it'll go up a little before our flu season is over. My husband was getting positive flu tests in July, but our "season" doesn't really start until Sept. This year has been a pretty tough one. 

By comparison, the Covid cases really didn't start getting tested for until late this month because we had so few tests. So you figure the 2000 cases were in roughly 2-3 WEEKS not 6 months. That's a real eye opener when you think about it. This is so much MORE than just a "different flu bug".


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Here in Iowa (USA) as of April 13:

Total confirmed cases: 1710
Total deceased: 43

Surprisingly, the majority of our cases are in adults 41-60 years of age, with the second highest numbers in adults 18-40 years of age. Less than 10% of our cases are in people older than 60. I suspect a lot of this has to do with the fact that in many areas, testing is still very limited, so those being tested are people with a travel history (spring break kids) and healthcare workers (the majority of whom are under 60 years of age). This also helps explain why we have so many more women testing positive than men when that doesn't seem to be the case in other areas. 

I don't think these numbers are all that accurate as we still don't have testing available to those who fall outside strict criteria: healthcare workers who have been exposed, people with travel history, and people who are being admitted to ICU care with documented pneumonia. No one else seems to be able to be tested right now. We still do not have a shelter in place and schools/public buildings are still scheduled to reopen May 1 at this time.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

Here is the link to the Covid-19 map for Indiana. If you scroll down to Demographic Distribution graph it shows percentages of age and gender for positive cases then you can click on "deaths" and those percentages change greatly.

https://coronavirus.in.gov/2393.htm

We too have more females that test positive but more men die from it. People in the 50-59 age group are more likely to test positive but the older age groups have higher death percentages.

According to a briefing by our governor they are testing post mortem if the person hadn't tested positive prior to dying. I don't know if they are doing that in all states.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Another 198 positive today in Iowa... most from a meat packing plant in eastern Iowa. Another large meat packing plant an hour from us in South Dakota has 293 positive cases from their facility alone and more tests forthcoming.... they have thousands of workers. The meat supply in the US is going to be negatively affected from this. The SD plant is closed indefinitely, and is the largest pork production plant in the country with nearly 7% of US pork products coming from that one plant alone. Plants in several other states are also facing the same issue.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Washington State has about 550 deaths. Something like 11,000 cases. Not sure exact number.


I read that New York City surpassed 10,000 deaths.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

^Jeez!! Just in one(albeit big) city? Sure that's not 10,000 _cases_?


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Nope, 10,000 deaths. 

The NYPD has lost two dozen policemen. NYC Metro transit nearly 60 workers....

New York
Confirmed Covid-19
202,208

Recovered
17,089

Deaths 
10,834

I'm not sure if the new totals yet include those found dead in their homes or on the streets that are presumed to be Covid-19 deaths or not. Officials still think there is a 'tremendous undercount' in the number of dead.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

```

```



loosie said:


> ^Jeez!! Just in one(albeit big) city? Sure that's not 10,000 _cases_?



It's hard to really feel this thing as REAL, until it comes close to you.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

^Don't really like your post SM. Poor New York! Why is it so bad there?? That the confirmed cases in one city, are more than even Spain, who's copping it, and death rate only a little less than the whole UK(according to https://news.google.com/covid19/map?hl=en-AU&gl=AU&ceid=AU:en) ...

And for that matter, why is UK death rate so high, at around 12k, when confirmed cases are 'only'(it's all relative) around 94k??

Puts it into better perspective that the whole of Australia(vast majority NSW) is 6,400 confirmed cases & 61 deaths, by above website.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

When you look at the population of New York City, 20 million in the metropolitan statistical area vs Australia's population of 25 million in the whole country, and the land mass of NYC is roughly 302 square miles vs Australia's approx. 300 MILLION square miles in the country, I think you can probably come closer to imagining why the numbers in NYC are so devastating. Sydney occupies 4700 sq. miles and has about 1/5 the population. These pandemics really hit the urban, heavily populated areas hard. 

And here in Oklahoma, one little state out of 50, we were at 2200 cases and 108 deaths with our "surge date" fast approaching, April 21, 2020. My little bitty county has 28 cases and 0 deaths. By comparison, Oklahoma County (OKC is in there) has 474 cases with 19 deaths and Tulsa County has 358 cases and 19 deaths. Those counties contain the 2 largest cities in OK so are being hit the hardest. 

I'm still hearing our numbers are being under reported due to ongoing difficulties in people getting tested. They have to meet certain criteria and that criteria differs from county to county and probably even from doctor to doctor if they're trying to get a lab order from their primary physician. Makes me want to grab a few folks and give them a quick kick in the seat of the pants to wake them up.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

New York City is very densely populated. Most people live in apartments and take public transit. Many lack the room to shop for a couple of weeks' worth of food and supplies, so have to go out more frequently to buy necessities. There is a high population of poor and homeless, who are being hard-hit. Last time I looked at the data (and this was a week or two ago, so that may have changed) the parts of the city with the lowest average incomes had much higher rates of death than the wealthier areas of the city. Covid-19 was spreading in New York City unchecked from mid-January on, but because of lack of testing (no proof) containment measures weren't put in place until March.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Wow, didn't realise NY was that huge, population-wise. Jeez, I hate the crowds in the suburbs, let alone going to Melbourne. Think I'll give NY a miss if I ever get to go o/s again.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

New York is a really cool place. It's big and noisy and crowded, but also has a magic to it. Do give it a chance when you visit. I dislike crowds, too, but really enjoyed the week we spent in New York with friends.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Interestingly enough, Tokyo, the biggest city in the world, has many, many fewer cases than NYC. It could be that they will have a ton more, soon. That the are just lagging behind. Hard to know.
The cancellation of the Olympics this year was a devastating blow, economically to Japan.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

I suspect the Japanese will be better at controlling the spread. As @tinyliny said, they have a unique way of looking at social responsibility while still celebrating personal freedom. If they believe coughing in public is bad, and that everyone can protect others by wearing masks, they will be nearly 100% compliant.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

The Japanese think blowing your nose is disgusting, but will openly hawk up a loogey and spit it on the sidewalk as if it's nothing.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hawk up a loogey ... haha! That's a new one for me!


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## AuG (Aug 18, 2019)

No new cases today. Alcohol restrictions lifted. Schools re-opened. We didn't get to a full lockdown where I am and have come out of the first wave better than places that did. Testing expanded to include random testing to catch asymptomatic carriers. 

It is not the end, but the powers that be of Australia have controlled this very well, so far. Going into our flu season now will increase the risk of a deadlier second wave. Hopefully social distancing and movement restrictions remain in place.


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

NYC has nearly 19 million people, and that does not include people from New Jersey and surrounding areas. 

There were some interesting stats on the number of people coming and going by plane daily from NYC. This was before the travel bans which were highly politicized and very unpopular at the time. Some of the officials (again highly politicized) are on record telling people to keep going out and live life as normal, particularly in NYC. In the largest city in the US where unlike of our other large cities people live on top of each other and nearly everything involves large crowds of people. If you take the whole situation for what it is, there isn't much surprise that NYC was hit so hard and that it spread so rapidly, unfortunately. 

In other parts of the US the lockdown has done more harm than good. I have no doubt we will be hearing about people who died across the country waiting to be seen for illness unrelated to COVID-19 for years to come, sadly. We've already heard of some hospitals who furloughed staff and may go bankrupt because they don't have enough normal medical work to keep them in business while following CDC guidelines. 

Texas is re-opening a little at a time under our Governor's orders. This makes sense to me. We can't have that many people unable to make a paycheck, and lose this many businesses and not pay dearly for it down the road.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

jgnmoose said:


> In other parts of the US the lockdown has done more harm than good. I have no doubt we will be hearing about people who died across the country waiting to be seen for illness unrelated to COVID-19 for years to come, sadly. We've already heard of some hospitals who furloughed staff and may go bankrupt because they don't have enough normal medical work to keep them in business while following CDC guidelines.


We have heard that hospitals are standing nearly empty across most of the country. This is also the case where I live. You might think money from the government was going to treat covid patients but hospitals seem to be using it to keep staff paid without patients. 

Also they are stocking up on supplies that will be paid for so they can save money by not buying those in the future. Nurses that are used to taking reduced pay for being home on call would normally use some vacation hours if they wanted a full paycheck. Currently they are being paid full wages at home from FEMA funds. Some hospitals furloughing staff are trying to capitalize on the situation.

People are afraid to come to hospitals because of the news when in reality most are nearly empty and covid free. This means many are waiting far too long and their chronic health conditions are life-threatening by the time they come in. 

There is also a big issue with care facilities. Normally residents are sent to be checked after major falls or if feeling weak or sick. We are hearing of people falling multiple times and staff deciding the resident is fine without xrays or lab tests, because of worries over hospital safety or bringing covid into a facility. Families can't visit so those who can't speak up are vulnerable. Ambulance calls are way down also. 
Not sure if doctors and surgeons are getting pay to be off work also, but they are wanting proof of risk to life or debility before agreeing to do even important surgery or accept transfers.

Hospitals are triaging people before they come in to be seen, but some are being sent away by untrained staff inappropriately. Some with "covid" symptoms in reality are having asthma or heart failure exacerbations.

To me these unnecessary health risks are bad, basically causing illness and death in the name of preventing it.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Iowa now has:
3641 confirmed cases
83 deaths

We now have some cases in our county, and 2 deaths-- both were turned away from treatment as 'not sick enough' and died at home shortly thereafter. :-(


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

OK is now at 2807 cases and 164 deaths. 

And they still have NO CLUE as to the real numbers because people STILL can't get tested. They say, "Get tested if: Fever 100.4 or above, coughing, short of breath (can't breathe). Friend of mine's daughter meets all the criteria, call the family doc as instructed for "pre-screening by telehealth" and is directed to go to ER. ER in their county, IF they test are using the outdated tests and results take over 1 week to get back. They decide she's not in bad enough shape, send her home, no test. Put the ENTIRE family on quarantine lockdown for 1 week, saying "That should be good enough.". 

What is the point of all this lockdown we've been doing if they're not going to practice any better biosecurity than that? They don't want to know. They want to show those numbers going down at any cost. It's just nuts.


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## aubie (Aug 24, 2013)

My county right now is round a hundred cases every 2-3 days. Now some of them may be backlogged test but still.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> OK is now at 2807 cases and 164 deaths.
> 
> And they still have NO CLUE as to the real numbers because people STILL can't get tested. They say, "Get tested if: Fever 100.4 or above, coughing, short of breath (can't breathe). Friend of mine's daughter meets all the criteria, call the family doc as instructed for "pre-screening by telehealth" and is directed to go to ER. ER in their county, IF they test are using the outdated tests and results take over 1 week to get back. They decide she's not in bad enough shape, send her home, no test. Put the ENTIRE family on quarantine lockdown for 1 week, saying "That should be good enough.".
> 
> What is the point of all this lockdown we've been doing if they're not going to practice any better biosecurity than that? They don't want to know. They want to show those numbers going down at any cost. It's just nuts.


Yep. Same here. There is now a new app for our state for people to input their symptoms see if they qualify for testing, and if so, they get a code to take to the testing site.... in Des Moines. Four hours' drive from here. 

I've had a wheezy cough for a few days. I should probably be tested, but aren't sick enough, so I wasn't given a code, and even if I was, a four-hour drive?!


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Wyoming has had 322 confirmed cases out of 7,300 tested. Most have recovered. There have been six deaths. Of the six age and/or co-mormidities were factors.

Contact tracing is far easier here than what I read and hear about in other locations.

Our largest numbers are in three counties. Two that have a very high number of "snowbirds" who chose to come home even after COVID-19 was active in their winter vacation spots instead of staying in places that were going to get too hot for their liking. And one county where our state university is located.

There are more people complaining in the towns than rural areas. Or the town people get interviewed and use social media more. Which sure could be.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

boots said:


> There are more people complaining in the towns than rural areas. Or the town people get interviewed and use social media more. Which sure could be.


That makes sense. I mean, my day to day life has not changed at all. I do farm stuff all day, cook dinner at night, do laundry, rinse repeat daily. Once very 2 weeks, I go to town and get groceries and feed, go home. Last week we preg checked a couple of mares, inseminated one. If anything, it's just made it easier for me to duck the huggers and squeezers and indulge my tendencies to stay home and just motor along doing my own thing with the horses, chickens, dogs and barn cat, my favorite "people" anyhow. LOL!


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

OK Stats: Alarming

2894 confirmed cases

170 deaths

It's alarming that we're that high and people still can't get tested! I griped in the other thread about a friend's daughter's lack of treatment. She was coughing, running a fever and couldn't catch her breath. Called the family primary care doc for phone triage and was directed to the ER. Goes inside the ER and is out in less than an hour, no testing (at least not specific for C19) done, told she was not that severe and to go home and family to be quarantined for 7 days. WTH?


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

We've been told that the reason they are being sparing with the tests is that even though they have the ability to run a lot of tests, they are worried about running out of certain supplies. 

For example, the swabs used are also what we use to test for flu and other viruses. Certain liquids used to contain the swab or perform the test are in short supply. 

As far as authorities are concerned, they seem to believe it is not that important to understand how many cases there are that don't require hospitalization, because that info will come out later in studies. At the moment the only concern is making sure hospitals are not overwhelmed, which there is no danger of.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

We still can't be tested here, either, in spite of our governor telling us we can be. We're all going back to work tomorrow even though cases are climbing. It's very scary. We now have nearly 7,000 cases in the state, nearly 1000 of which are 50 miles away or less. More every day.


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## Horse girl 07 (May 12, 2015)

@SilverMaple I am so sorry about the loss of your friend. In New York cases are going down. I know a friend who works at hospital and they are closing units down that are no longer needed- signs of victory. Being cautious seems to have been the write card to pick although with many challenges attached to it and will allow things to safely open up and be successful. It sad that politics have to be apart of this it is very sad. I do have to say it gives me pride in the people that do unite and the support they show.


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

@SilverMaple, so sorry to hear about the loss of your friend. And I agree with your assessment- everything about where we stand today is political. If only it really were based on science.


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## Horse girl 07 (May 12, 2015)

Prayers that everyone stays safe.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

OK now has 3618 confirmed cases, 222 deaths attributed to Covid. 

The numbers still can't be trusted but this is what is being released. 

@Silver Maple, I'm so sorry to hear of your friend, my sincerest condolences. Yes, everything about this disease is political, but the human suffering and community we have formed for support is not. We're just people all around the globe supporting each other and learning how each different area is dealing with this disease and holding each other up through out, regardless of philosophies or beliefs. I have not voiced mine, other than to be a bit critical of our testing methods. I have a LOT more thoughts on this but understand that this isn't the place to express them. We each need all the support we can get/give to get through all this. I wish you the best.


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## AuG (Aug 18, 2019)

Creeping up to 100 cases in Australia after another aged care home outbreak.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Yes, everything about this disease is political, but the human suffering and community we have formed for support is not. We're just people all around the globe supporting each other and learning how each different area is dealing with this disease and holding each other up through out, regardless of philosophies or beliefs. I have not voiced mine, other than to be a bit critical of our testing methods. I have a LOT more thoughts on this but understand that this isn't the place to express them. We each need all the support we can get/give to get through all this. I wish you the best.


Quoting this because it can't be said any better.

Thank you Dreamcatcher Arabians


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

Serbia: we are very much on the tail end of the epidemic. One interesting thing our doctors said today is that patients who are currently on respirators are mainly “old” cases and the majority were on the respirator longer than two weeks. The new patients are extremely rarely getting very sick and most of those who do get very sick are people over 80. So it seems the virus is loosing potency over here. One caveat: our entire 65+ population has been locked up for almost two months with no contact. They are only allowed to go out for a walk when the rest of us are locked up, after 6PM and that has only been possible for a week.


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

PA stats as of noon yesterday:

48,305 cases; 2.418 deaths


my county specifically:

2,211 cases; 97 deaths


We have been under a stay at home mandate for about 3 weeks, with the first step in re-opening happening in some counties (not mine) at the end of next week.


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## aubie (Aug 24, 2013)

Hard for me to get stats anymore. They stopped reports them here in Georgia. The AJC and the news stations where all over it. Then after the "reopen" nothing. Cases were not down significantly. Saw an article where Florida has done the same. 

You can get some on the public health department website, but it takes some effort.


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## aubie (Aug 24, 2013)

Here is an article on it. Draw your own conclusions 

https://www.ajc.com/news/state--reg...r-shifting-virus-data/k9oUbZDE3z6iyouWQBF7gJ/


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

Minnesota stats

Confirmed cases 6,228

Recovered 2,397. Deaths 395 all were 70 or older,only one 40 year old died that had no underlying health issues. This was updated just two hours ago.

Still have the stay at home order in place ,was extended two more weeks. People aren't doing it anymore there over it all ready. Traffic is back to normal out here.

I'm over it too it's old news now.


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## aubie (Aug 24, 2013)

Just because someone is over 70 doesn't make their death any less important. Because they have an underlying condition doesn't make their death more acceptable. They didn't have THIS underlying condition. Their death was preventable and didn't have to be.

People are not being oppressed, they are being inconvenienced. They are compounding the problem by stupidity like hoarding.


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

@aubie Sorry if I miscommunicated, I wasn’t saying that elderly “don’t count”. I was saying that the strain we have here might be getting weaker because it isn’t causing severe illness (in most cases) in the population below 65 and it used to in the beginning. I mentioned the 65+ population because they are currently protected so we don’t know if they are still susceptible. I think it is reasonable to assume that 80+ population is highly vulnerable to any assault on their immune system so we cannot really draw any conclusions from their rates.


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## Jolien (Aug 19, 2019)

According to the statistics in my country 7844 people died, 3056 are in the hospital (674 are on intensive care), 12309 people left the hospital. The population of our country is ca 11 million people. -> We will have to wear a face mask in public transport. All kids and teachers will have to wear them. The government advises wearing them in crowded places too (like the supermarket.) My mom made me a mask (our governemnt distributed patters for sewing approved masks) from cotton. You can place a filter in it. The government is going to give every civilian a mask and 2 filters for free. 



Starting fron tommorow it will be allowed to leave your house for other things (grocery shopping and work were the only two allowed previously), they are going to slowly restart schools. Bad idea if you ask me. But okay... I am a teacher and I can't properly breathe through the mask, let alone teach without drinking (I always have to drink alot). It will be challenging.


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## aubie (Aug 24, 2013)

It wasn't a pick at you specifically, just in general you hear that a lot. different things about this stick with different people at different times. that's just one of mine.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

In Wyoming, 10,000 tested. 429 confirmed since the beginning of testing. 7 deaths.

They've started anti-body testing and will count any that show positive for antibodies in the positive column. 

I have to travel out of state next weekend. Other than purchasing gasoline (I have gloves) I shouldn't need to have contact. I'm even bring a camp toilet!


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## kewpalace (Jul 17, 2013)

We have/had 1005 cases in my County. 8 deaths. 587 recovered. 

The court contacted us two weeks ago, saying we were expected back to work on 5/4. So it's back to the salt mines tomorrow. We've been off 6 weeks. I could have used another week to get the projects I have at home done. But I did get a lot done. And I'm happy to be going back to work.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

OK has now 3972 cases and 238 deaths. Still gaining more than 100 cases/day.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

isn't it nice that this thread is now the only one getting posted on the subject of the virus ? keep it all in one place. easily monitored. yep.


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## Wild Heart (Oct 4, 2010)

My county is at 323 cases with 22 deaths. 

We've had a few workers from Wal-Mart and Lowes test positive for the virus and it appears that we gain about 20 to 30 new cases a day on average.


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

A French hospital has gone back and found and confirmed a case on 27 December 2019. The patient hasn’t traveled anywhere and neither did his family. So it’s been around a lot longer than we thought. Wouldn’t it be funny if this didn’t actually originate in China.


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## 281187 (Sep 19, 2019)

Horsef said:


> A French hospital has gone back and found and confirmed a case on 27 December 2019. The patient hasn’t traveled anywhere and neither did his family. So it’s been around a lot longer than we thought. Wouldn’t it be funny if this didn’t actually originate in China.


That's very interesting, but just because that guy and his family hadn't traveled abroad recently doesn't mean much of anything if his and their _contacts_ (IE:- Co-workers, neighbors, friends, the cashier at the store, etc) can't be ruled out as the source of infection. I don't worry about myself or my family, I worry about *who we encounter*.


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

LeopardComplex said:


> That's very interesting, but just because that guy and his family hadn't traveled abroad recently doesn't mean much of anything if his and their _contacts_ (IE:- Co-workers, neighbors, friends, the cashier at the store, etc) can't be ruled out as the source of infection. I don't worry about myself or my family, I worry about *who we encounter*.


For sure.

But the reason it’s interesting in this case is that the fact that he didn’t travel means that the virus was already circulating in France in December. The first known case in Wuhan was on 1st of December and they only had around thirty known cases on 31.12 when they started the investigation (officially).


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

I think it would be tempting to attribute malice looking backwards but we also have to consider that China simply may not have known. Just like the French missed that case in December. I guess more will come out in other countries as well. Medicine isn’t really a black and white thing in practice. Pneumonia is very common in humans. Connecting the dots in real time, especially if the first cases weren’t all seen by the same doctor (which would have been highly unlikely), would have taken a lot of time.


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## aubie (Aug 24, 2013)

At least now starting to see a little more honestly. Starting to put price on us.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/the-cost-of-reopening-the-economy-in-lives-201007725.html


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## Jolien (Aug 19, 2019)

Horsef said:


> I think it would be tempting to attribute malice looking backwards but we also have to consider that China simply may not have known. Just like the French missed that case in December. I guess more will come out in other countries as well. Medicine isn’t really a black and white thing in practice. Pneumonia is very common in humans. Connecting the dots in real time, especially if the first cases weren’t all seen by the same doctor (which would have been highly unlikely), would have taken a lot of time.





hmmm I got weirdly ill in january... I had a persistent low grade fever, painful skin and I was very tired. I had to cough alot... A dry cough that is. At the time they suspected pneumonia and tested my blood. I had a bacterial infection but the medication I got didn't help. The cough persisted and I was tired. Now I am thinking maybe I got covid? But I don't really know. 



Update: they will probably delete the course I teach from the curriculum because of the crisis. So I will not have my job anymore but supposedly I could go help out at the school to desinfect surfaces, help students with the face masks and clean. I don't care what they make me do as long as I don't lose my job!


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

Horsef said:


> A French hospital has gone back and found and confirmed a case on 27 December 2019. The patient hasn’t traveled anywhere and neither did his family. So it’s been around a lot longer than we thought. Wouldn’t it be funny if this didn’t actually originate in China.


I've heard of several people talking saying that they had a strange illness back in Dec. that distinctly sounds like the same symptoms as COVID-19. A few co- workers and my B/O who is a nurse. She's pretty convinced that was what it was. Hmmm, but the world didn't fall apart over it until Feb. or March. Also, another fun little fact. I don't know about other area's of the world, but here, hospitals are receiving funding based on numbers of COVID-19 cases that they have.


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

There is reason to believe that it did spread to Europe and the US as far back as late last fall. 

What is understandable and at the same time very frustrating is that there is near daily reports the experts have been wrong on nearly everything. If that information is not accurate it makes a person wonder if all the things we are being told to do based on it is actually doing anything.


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

jgnmoose said:


> There is reason to believe that it did spread to Europe and the US as far back as late last fall.
> 
> What is understandable and at the same time very frustrating is that there is near daily reports the experts have been wrong on nearly everything. If that information is not accurate it makes a person wonder if all the things we are being told to do based on it is actually doing anything.


The main argument our local doctors were using in support of harsh lockdown measures is that they don’t know much about the virus but they do know what the clinical manifestation was like and they were extremely worried. That’s why they pushed for a harsh lockdown. I don’t think any doctor out there ever used a definitive statement when describing the virus. What I personally heard was along the lines “We don’t know, give us time to find out. In the meantime, here is what we think will prevent infection because it works with other similar viruses”


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

Just in case anyone is still wandering if strict early lockdown works:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-suffered-less-from-coronavirus-than-the-west

Our example (Serbia): we started lockdown on the 15 March, when we had 48 positive patients and zero dead. Our first death was eight days later. We have had 196 deaths so far - and they count everybody who died with Covid, even if it wasn’t the cause. No home deaths happened because everyone with a whiff of Covid was tested and hospitalized and retirement homes have been incredibly strictly monitored and tested. Our overall death rate is LOWER than in previous years (undoubtedly due to lack of traffic and elective surgery).


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

The article states several other important factors in addition to lockdown.



> Numerous contributing causes have been mooted for the discrepancy in various individual countries: *lower life expectancy meaning fewer vulnerable elderly people still alive, lower population density, fewer flights to China, lower testing rates or even just sheer luck*. The obligatory wearing of masks outdoors, now common to much of Europe, was implemented very early on by the Czech Republic and Slovakia and may also have helped stop the spread.
> 
> The most important reason, however, seems to be the early lockdown implemented by almost all countries in the region. While in Britain and other western European nations, public events and gatherings were still going on in the second and third weeks of March, in central and eastern Europe, governments saw what was happening in Italy and implemented rapid lockdowns.


New York City is so much worse off than the rest of the US for the opposite reasons. Very high population density, a lot of older people and had the highest daily travel of anywhere in the country; effectively a perfect storm for spreading the virus. 

Although I am sure more enforcement of PPE and lockdowns does help it also does a lot of damage in just about every other way. Some of the rumors I've heard about tech being developed to track people is ridiculous if true. 

My county in Texas is already starting to go back to normal as of last Friday because with fewer than 12 cases and no deaths it was extreme overkill to continue it.


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

@jgnmoose Sure, those might be contributing - but Serbia has 1.7 million people over 65. That’s a lot of people that could have been victims.

There are two other contributing factors which were proposed in literature: genetics (specifically multiple alleles for ACE2 which are more common in Eastern Europe) and 
TB vaccination which was compulsory in most of Eastern but not in Western Europe.

It will be very interesting (for lack of a better word) to see how the scientists untangle this.


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## BzooZu (Jan 12, 2014)

I see the other thread is locked so I will post our statistics here:

Slovakia as of 5.5.2020

99 864 people tested,
1 421 positive,
25 dead,
741 recovered,
159 people hospitalised (39 with covid + 120 with covid symptoms avaiting testing, 1 person on ventilation, 6 people in intensive care).

After 2 months we are now officially opening shops, restaurants, hotels and so on. (Even churches are now allowed to open huh). They are all under strict instructions and they need to follow certain rules if they want to stay open but it seems to be no problem so far. Face masks are still a thing - not sure if we are still required to wear them outside, but most of us are doing so anyway. Still no big gatherings and no travelling abroad but otherwise most restrictions have been lifted.

We are starting to test less ( even though you can still pay to get yourself tested just to be sure or if you need to go abroad for work reasons ) mostly because it seems that there are less people waiting to get tested. Most retirement homes have already undergone testing, so did hospital staff. Also, this whole social distancing and mask wearing lowered the number of people with flu and other infectious diseases this year a lot so we actually dont have as many people sick as we usually do at this time of a year (a bit ironic I guess).

Now its just time for us to hope that we wont get a second wave of COVID-19 cases in two weeks.


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## Jolien (Aug 19, 2019)

jgnmoose said:


> There is reason to believe that it did spread to Europe and the US as far back as late last fall.
> 
> Interesting::: I was coughing since october 2019 and it lasted for months. I didn't take no medication since I am against that. I just thought it was a bad case of bronchitis and assumed my body's defense systems would 'clean it up' but I felt really bad and tired and in januari-february things got so bad that my students and coworkers started asking if I was okay cause I looked bad and I sure felt reallyyyy bad and tired all the time but ya know... I still think what I initially had must have been some kind of respiratory problem/allergic infection?? And maybe in januari I also got covid on top? I remember the doctor was baffled that my broad spectrum medications didn't work and I still felt so bad. They scanned my longs (which I thought was weird because there was no chest pain). Anyways I will never know until they test my blood for antibodies.


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## Wild Heart (Oct 4, 2010)

Back in the first week a February I had something going on as well. 

At first I thought it was the flu. Very high fever, crazy muscle pains and overall body fatigue. My cough was relentless and with my asthma there were times where I couldn't even breath. Getting up to get a drink made me feel like I was about to hike Everest. I went to the doctor about 5 days in when my cough wouldn't let up and I started feeling even worse.

They tested me for the flu and it came back negative. It was diagnosed as just a simple common cold but I've had colds, I've had the flu. Whatever this virus was that I had really knocked me down.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

A nurse I work with tested positive for antibodies and she and her family were very sick in January. Considering she worked before and after that time, it is interesting that no other staff so far have antibodies. I believe those I work with are good at handwashing. 

I've wondered if Oregon had exposure before WA or CA. We have an international airport and there were a lot of flu negative pneumonia cases this winter. We always have lots of old people with comorbidities die in the winter. If our numbers were similar to WA minus the nursing home outbreak, I am not sure we would have noticed.

We don't have the factors that contribute to large outbreaks. Very little public transportation, lots of outdoor space and small towns. There were lots of schoolchildren sick over the winter with one school having half the kids stay home one week.


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## Jolien (Aug 19, 2019)

@Wild Heart Sounds like you got corona.... My sis her husband got very sick (high fever, very weird muscle pain) a month ago. They didn't have enough tests to test him for it (in my country they only test you if you are in such a bad shape that they have to hook you up to a respiratory device) but we are all pretty sure he got corona. He is a big fella and he is no wussy. He said his muscles hurt so much he couldn't even properly hold his plate to eat... That ain't normal if you ask me... 



@gottatrot I still went working with the fever and muscle pain... (I didn't know about corona back then...)  I just thought i'd push through and not let down my employers...in the beginning I specifically asked my doctor if he thought what I had was contagious and he said: no you probably got asthma or something because the meds don't work... :s 



In my country a lot of people were complaining (including me ahem) about this weird sickness that didn't go away. We had to cough alot and felt really tired. We all thought we just had a rough winter and a bad case of a cold gone awry or something. My doctor thought I got pneumonia. Very suspicious. Maybe this virus was indeed already in our country?


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## Jolien (Aug 19, 2019)

jgnmoose said:


> There is reason to believe that it did spread to Europe and the US as far back as late last fall.
> 
> What is understandable and at the same time very frustrating is that there is near daily reports the experts have been wrong on nearly everything. If that information is not accurate it makes a person wonder if all the things we are being told to do based on it is actually doing anything.



I also read diarrhea can be a symptom (sorry for this info ahem) so it is indeed confusing, it looks like the disease has a lot of symptoms. My other sister her husband lost his smell a couple of days and several coworkers got corona. Now supposedly young people (like him) could lose their smell due to corona?? (research was looking into that)


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## LlamaPacker (Aug 29, 2016)

*Llamas Might Help with Cure!!!*

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/06/...te=1&user_id=5197c8d7e65edb57f0aef9b19cb7ad89

Exciting to read article about llama antibodies (link above) possibly being useful to fight off Covid-19! Would be great if I've gotten some immunity by being around them, since I'm headed off to CA today to help my younger sister with hospice home care for her husband (he stage 4 lung cancer, not dangerous, I hope.) Am lucky that farmer husband has N-95 masks in storage shed, as used for spraying crops. Plan to be back eventually, stay well to all


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## Jolien (Aug 19, 2019)

@LlamaPacker I read the article, that's the uni I went to, where they discovered it!  Long live my country!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

^Just purely out of curiosity, care to tell what your country is Jolien? Just that, last I looked, there were a few different countries in Europe. ;-)


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## Jolien (Aug 19, 2019)

loosie said:


> ^Just purely out of curiosity, care to tell what your country is Jolien? Just that, last I looked, there were a few different countries in Europe. ;-)



Vive la Belgique! We are great, we are theeeee most amazing country in the world.  


edit: here was a funny video but some people might take offense so I deleted it but you can look it up on youtube: ''America first, Belgium second''


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

Ahhhh, the land of the world’s greatest beer. You have given us all so much :wink:


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## RegalCharm (Jul 24, 2008)

Ohio opens

May 21 indoor dining and campgrounds

May 22 horse racing with out spectators

May 26 Bureau of Motor Vehicles, Gyms, Fitness Centers, non contact youth sports, Pools 

May 31 Child Care and Day camps.

Malls are all ready open. though some stores in them might not be open.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

OK is opening up sloooooowly. We're at 5839 cases (with many people STILL saying they cannot get tested) and 307 deaths.


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

IL is opening slowly and there are multiple court cases pending to speed the opening. Small businesses are declaring bankruptcy at an alarming pace. 60 + days of quarantine have killed many a dream.

Our cases continue to drop but also be 90% in the Chicago area. The rest of our large state suffers because of Chicago.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

this is so hard to know; if we had NOT quarantined, would businesses be surviving better. You see, if the disease had been allowed to run rampant, It is assumed by experts that the number of folks needing hospitalizting would outstrip the resources, fast. There would then be people , in the streets, screaming at hospitals to treat their loved ones, people dying in the lobby, or street, dead piling up in a grotesque manner . . . all of which would create such fear in public that people would stop going out to the movies, the restaurants, the office, etc. People would become suspicious of others, and resentful of some who seem to get medical care, while they cannot . . etc. 

My point being, the societal affects might have been as depressing on the economy as what we are now experience, minus a few hundred thousand dead persons.


this is not an either or situtaion. It's not like there was an 'easy' way out, and darn it all, this or that political party or leader messed up everything. We are in a difficult time, whatever we do. It's important the pendulum is kept from swinging wildly, but there's no doubt that there is nothing normal, and no way back to normalcy for many month, even IF you 'reopen' the businesses.
The words now are, "If you build it, they probably wont' come anyway". at least for awhile.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

tinyliny said:


> My point being, the societal affects might have been as depressing on the economy as what we are now experience, minus a few hundred thousand dead persons.
> 
> this is not an either or situtaion. It's not like there was an 'easy' way out, and darn it all, this or that political party or leader messed up everything. We are in a difficult time, whatever we do.


No easy answers for sure. It is interesting to see how Sweden has been doing. They did not shut down and experienced higher death rates than surrounding countries. Yet their antibody levels are barely higher than those that did shut down. Herd immunity does not seem to be something that will come about with this disease. People are too spread out and too many avoid getting infected.

Still, there are more factors than we understand, and I believe a huge one is how close together people are. For example, with 10 million people Sweden has had 3,500 deaths. Oregon with 4.2 million people has had 150 deaths. If our rates were similar to theirs, we would have had more like 1,400 deaths. Yet our lockdown was not very enforced, and most people were running around not wearing masks. But Oregon has a lot of open space, most of us live in private homes rather than in apartment complexes, and most do not rely on public transportation. 

Sweden has not avoided economic depression either. A lot of their economy depends on global factors rather than simply whether restaurants stay open, and they lost a lot of business from people staying home, even though things were open. Maybe the biggest difference for Sweden will be that their kids remained in school getting educated.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

In case it is interesting:

Our health care system in Oregon was doing Covid antibody studies on caregivers, running serial tests. They stopped the study early because they had barely any that were positive for antibodies.

They recently told us that they tracked 61 times where health care workers were unknowingly exposed to Covid before a diagnosis. This resulted in 694 people getting exposed. Out of the 694 exposures, two people tested positive. Out of 23,000 caregivers in our system, 35 have tested positive for Covid.


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## Fuddyduddy1952 (Jun 26, 2019)

Years ago there was the news. Neutral, bipartisan based on facts available at the time. Now it's biased politically.
The fact is everything has to have point of reference. Never in history have stay at home orders been given and "nonessential" businesses been closed. Grocery, hardware and liquor stores with hoards of people are open but not churches (until yesterday's executive order). 
Interesting to me is the comparison between Covid and other illnesses (influenza, cancer, heart disease), alcohol, tobacco, prescription and illicit drug abuse, car and other accidents, suicide, and all assorted crime related deaths and injuries.
Nowadays most people's "knowledge" is based on TV, radio, internet. How much affect does that have on one's reasoning?
If I was 38 instead of 68 today I'd probably be fined or closed down since my business I'm sure would be non-essential...but we have to pay bills and eat.
Now it's time for my evisceration.




Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Fuddyduddy1952 said:


> The fact is everything has to have point of reference. Never in history have stay at home orders been given and "nonessential" businesses been closed. Grocery, hardware and liquor stores with hoards of people are open but not churches (until yesterday's executive order).
> Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk


All of the essential stores in my area have very strict rules as to how many people can be in the store at any one time, everyone has to wear face masks, the floors are marked with a ‘one way system’ and everyone seems to be respectful of the safe distance.

A lot of the smaller stores are asking people to ring in their orders and then you collect the order from the curbside. 

You can’t do that for a church service.


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## RegalCharm (Jul 24, 2008)

jaydee said:


> All of the essential stores in my area have very strict rules as to how many people can be in the store at any one time, everyone has to wear face masks, the floors are marked with a ‘one way system’ and everyone seems to be respectful of the safe distance.
> 
> A lot of the smaller stores are asking people to ring in their orders and then you collect the order from the curbside.
> 
> *You can’t do that for a church service.*



They can still wear masks and keep the spacing. So if nothing else let people sit in their cars in the parking lot and use a sound system. just keep an empty parking space between cars. 

Churchill said "We have nothing to fear except fear itself.? IMHO that is true today as it was then.


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## Fuddyduddy1952 (Jun 26, 2019)

jaydee said:


> All of the essential stores in my area have very strict rules as to how many people can be in the store at any one time, everyone has to wear face masks, the floors are marked with a ‘one way system’ and everyone seems to be respectful of the safe distance.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"You can’t do that for a church service."
Here in South Central Virginia from day one hardware stores, home improvement big box stores, Walmart, grocery stores and ABC stores have been opened. We don't drink, but whiskey store is next to grocery store.
No "respect" here...it's a zoo. Lots of people with no mask, or wearing a handkerchief, mask exposing their nose, etc. I've never seen anyone anywhere wearing a virus proof mask. One's you see are the made in China blue disposable ones (real effective).
No one obeys the 6ft or one way markers.
Church I guarantee would be different. Cleaned during the week, families sit together, "proper" distancing ([emoji3] whatever that is...is 6 feet away safe?), masks available, temperature checks (if they wanted). Church would not be like Wally world.
People could even stay in cars, a pa system, or transmitter "tune radio to 106.9" like realtors do.
But it's ok to smoke, drink, eat junk food. We all know that's healthy.
We should all stay at home in our recliners like good little children should.[emoji38]

Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Here the church I go to went to service being streamed. Only 5 people for actual services. Then they added communion drive through at set times. Some of the churches moved to outdoor service with parishoners in the parking lot watching from cars. Two weeks ago we went to %capacity and every other pew roped off - families all in one pew with non family members that share 3 to a pew(each end and middle). Any overflow can remain in vehicles or there is socially distanced seating in the gym with streamed service.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Fuddyduddy1952 said:


> Years ago there was the news. Neutral, bipartisan based on facts available at the time. Now it's biased politically.
> The fact is everything has to have point of reference.* Never in history have stay at home orders been given and "nonessential" businesses been *closed. Grocery, hardware and liquor stores with hoards of people are open but not churches (until yesterday's executive order).
> Interesting to me is the comparison between Covid and other illnesses (influenza, cancer, heart disease), alcohol, tobacco, prescription and illicit drug abuse, car and other accidents, suicide, and all assorted crime related deaths and injuries.
> Nowadays most people's "knowledge" is based on TV, radio, internet. How much affect does that have on one's reasoning?
> ...





Actually, during the Great Flu Pandemic of 1917/18/19 stay at home orders WERE given and enforced. Many areas were quite draconian.


I do agree that some of the reasoning for why this or that enterprise/activity can't take place just don't seem to make any sense when compared to a different activity.


As to churches, when groups of people are INSIDE and they are singing loudly, a LOT of viral material is spewed into the air. IF churches kept folks at good distances, asked them to ALL wear masks, perhaps did not do hymns, (just have a well spaced and distanced choir sing? masked) it may work. 



But, lets say the church has 1000 congregants that want to come, badly. They can accomodate 300 safely. Who will stand at that door and turn away the extra 5 to 7 hundred that want to come in? it would be impossibly hard to maintain that line. 



I think that they should totally allow churches to reopen, but ask every person who comes to sign up for contact tracing. That would help if there is a super spreader event , as is feared.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Many have a sign up sheet online. If you don't get an auto reply then expect to be in the overflow or your car where you can stream it and then do communion. No hymns here. I guess they thought of that.


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## Jolien (Aug 19, 2019)

in belgium they already reopened the schools for some grades. They are now planning on reopening schools for all kids. Not the best idea if you ask me. Youth camps with 50 kids will be allowed (also not the greatest idea, ahem) and more and more shops are opened. They strongly recommend wearing a mouthmask in public but I am the only one that does and everyone looks at me and tells me ''I can take it off''. They don't seem to realize I do this to protect them and the elderly. People are really slacking and not following the rules... I went to the village today and it seemed like a regular weekend. People everywhere, walking close and eating ice cream... I don't want to get it, I am scared that I will infect my parents that are older. I also have very close family members with a severe heart disease so... I just want my family to be safe. I wish the government took it more serious... They just want to save the economy now...


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## aubie (Aug 24, 2013)

Hard to know here. The state has been caught on more than one occasion doing some hokey pokey with the numbers.


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## RegalCharm (Jul 24, 2008)

Some states have reopened beaches. who is going to wear a mask near around or in water. People will be moving about and will more than likely not go 6 foot to go around a sun bather. And if it is about getting a tan would the lighter outline of a mask be a badge of honor.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Fuddyduddy1952 said:


> "You can’t do that for a church service."
> Here in South Central Virginia from day one hardware stores, home improvement big box stores, Walmart, grocery stores and ABC stores have been opened. We don't drink, but whiskey store is next to grocery store.
> No "respect" here...it's a zoo. Lots of people with no mask, or wearing a handkerchief, mask exposing their nose, etc. I've never seen anyone anywhere wearing a virus proof mask. One's you see are the made in China blue disposable ones (real effective).
> No one obeys the 6ft or one way markers.
> ...


If people can sit in their cars and attend a service via loudspeakers then they have no need to sit inside a building.
How would they decide who gets to sit inside? Draw straws?

They’ve done experiments to show how much spray is released when just talking without a mask, how will people sit in a building for however long the service is wearing masks that will soon get soggy, especially if they’re singing?

I get around the supermarket as fast as I can and still find that the mask starts to feel oppressive but I have to eat so I have to go there.

I don’t need to sit in a Church to talk to God.


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## Fuddyduddy1952 (Jun 26, 2019)

tinyliny said:


> Actually, during the Great Flu Pandemic of 1917/18/19 stay at home orders WERE given and enforced. Many areas were quite draconian.
> 
> 
> I do agree that some of the reasoning for why this or that enterprise/activity can't take place just don't seem to make any sense when compared to a different activity.
> ...


Actually, during the Great Flu Pandemic of 1917/18/19 stay at home orders WERE given and enforced.
Most people who lived during the Spanish Flu have passed. My grandparents next door growing up my grandfather was going to college during it, lived with parents while courting my grandmother and worked part time at great-Granddad's General store as did his two sisters. I know college and store was open. I never heard any of them talk about stay at home orders since there wasn't any. There were, however, houses under quarantine and posted by signs for various reasons.
The internet, where everything is truthful may say otherwise.

Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

There is a real credibility problem from all of the experts that get air time on COVID-19; everything they have said has been wrong. 

With a track record of always being wrong, how do we know that anything we are doing actually does anything at all for the spread of COVID-19. 

One of the reasons being presented for NYC having had the worst of it anywhere in the US if not the world is chilling. Because of models (which were wrong by every measure and repeatedly revised and still ... wrong) that said that NYC would need nearly 200,000 hospital beds and ventilators, the state was putting patients in nursing homes to make room. Everything we do know about COVID-19 is that the people who definitely should not have COVID-19 patients living among them are in nursing homes. In reality, NYC needed more like 20,000 hospital beds and in the process turned their nursing homes into death camps for the elderly. 

This is how moronic the policies have been. Some judges are literally freeing convicted sex offenders from jail due to COVID-19 and at the same time arresting beauty salon owners and pastors. Every official behind decisions like that should resign in disgrace for being idiots. 

Someone please tell me how Walmart and Lowes can still be open, but a family owned grocery or hardware store cannot without massive fines or jail time. 

The cold truth is they have no idea what they are doing, and no evidence that those measures actually do anything. Gov. Cuomo himself stated that many of the new COVID-19 cases were from people who had stayed home. They are urinating in the wind and trying to not get their pants wet, that is about how effective it has been.


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

@jgnmoose Here in Serbia scientists clearly stated that they don’t know and need time to figure it out and prepare hospitals. In the meantime, they said that the measures they propose would work against most viruses so that’s what we went with. It worked decently. We had about 230 deaths (population of 6 to 7 million) and the hospital system didn’t collapse, which was their biggest fear. We are back to mostly normal. No schools or large public gatherings, and retirement homes are still under heavy measures. Even international travel has been reinstated without mandatory isolation or tests. We have been hovering between 50 and 100 new cases per day for about three weeks even though people are largely going about their lives - but no explosion of new cases. However, they are doing intensive contact tracing and a lot of testing. Positive cases are isolated in state facilities even when asymptomatic - which is mostly what they are finding at the moment.


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

Glad to hear that Serbia is going back to some form of normal. The scientists on your end appear to be honest at least. In my opinion the biggest issue here is the media. These are the same people who within 60 days went from heavily criticizing travel bans even calling them racist, to telling us not wearing a mask is basically murder. 

There is a school district in Texas that is talking about having kids only be able to walk in one direction in the halls at schools when they return in the fall to help slow the spread. That is a special kind of goofy, they should be embarrassed for saying it out loud.


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## TaMMa89 (Apr 12, 2008)

*Moderators note:*

This thread seems to be hovering back and forth toward political discussion and content. The Team is already discussing some content published in this thread being borderline political. Please keep all kind of politics out of this thread so we don't need to close this one like we did with the previous COVID thread.

Thank you for understanding and cooperating,
The Moderating Team


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## RegalCharm (Jul 24, 2008)

@TaMMa89 So how is Finland doing with the virus. What kind of preventive measures are you all doing?

I remember you with that White coat and White Captains hat. I think you just graduated from the university.


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## Fuddyduddy1952 (Jun 26, 2019)

Here's something interesting to me an it's 100% apolitical and that is masks.
We're not talking about pollen, dust or bacteria but masks for a virus!!!
All these people you see wear these paper dust masks, and never eye protection. 
Doesn't that seem weird and useless? Guys (like me ) who have a beard I would think any mask would be ineffective!
Is a mask purpose to keep you from contracting Covid, or to benefit others if you believe you're positive but unaware? We see lots of people wearing a folded bandana.


Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Back in February the CDC made an info graphic. But quickly clarified that they were not recommending fellows shave their beards.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/abc7ne...ache-state-of-emergency-preparedness/5969379/


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Fuddyduddy1952 said:


> Here's something interesting to me an it's 100% apolitical and that is masks.
> We're not talking about pollen, dust or bacteria but masks for a virus!!!
> All these people you see wear these paper dust masks, and never eye protection.
> Doesn't that seem weird and useless? Guys (like me ) who have a beard I would think any mask would be ineffective!
> ...





the purpose of the simple masks, or bandanas, is ONLY to keep the larger droplets that you might expell if you coughed, sneezed, or yelled/sang loudly from going out directly in front of you and for any distance. The smaller bits can come out the sides, but will likely travel less far. So, you are reducing the likelihood of YOU throwing out a bunch of viral material at just the right distance from someone to infect them.


From what I've been reading, you really do need to be pretty close to someone for just talking to have any affect (maskless), but singing, coughing, yelling, can throw the virus further.


As for being outside and wearing a mask, I don't personally see the need unless you are up close to people. Moving open air disperses the viral droplets into such a weak concentration that it's very unlikely they could cause an infection. I do, however, always wear a mask at stores, gas stations, restaurant pick up, etc. Not for me, for them, and I appreciate them reciprocating.



Surfaces are not as big a concern as once believed, but HANDS , touching another person's hands, then the face, with very little time lag, that is an easy way to get sick.


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

I'm advising everyone to take the opportunity to wear a bandana, cowboy hat and spurs in public while shopping. Might as well have fun with it. Make train robbery fashion great again.

Just don't carry a firearm, because mask + gun is a felony...


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Fuddyduddy1952 said:


> Here's something interesting to me an it's 100% apolitical and that is masks.
> We're not talking about pollen, dust or bacteria but masks for a virus!!!
> All these people you see wear these paper dust masks, and never eye protection.
> Doesn't that seem weird and useless? Guys (like me ) who have a beard I would think any mask would be ineffective!
> ...


It has been repeatedly said, consistently, as far as I've heard... well, I have stopped paying attention in the last month so perhaps it has changed... that masks do not protect the wearer. but protect those they may breath on.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

jgnmoose said:


> I'm advising everyone to take the opportunity to wear a bandana, cowboy hat and spurs in public while shopping. Might as well have fun with it. Make train robbery fashion great again.
> 
> Just don't carry a firearm, because mask + gun is a felony...


Haha! But wait, are you saying you CAN carry a firearm in public so long as you're not masked??


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

loosie said:


> Haha! But wait, are you saying you CAN carry a firearm in public so long as you're not masked??


In OK, yes, and in TX, I think so. We are an open carry state.


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## Fuddyduddy1952 (Jun 26, 2019)

If you don't have corona or you're asymptomatic then you don't need a mask. Or wearing one shows compassion or that you're sick so stay away! 
Now they have the fashion masks.
The new hinged ones allow eating since they open by pushing a button. But if someone talks or sneezes while you have the button pushed you could be in trouble.
I'll just stay home, it's less confusing.









Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> In OK, yes, and in TX, I think so. We are an open carry state.


That would be hilarious, if it were funny... that you're allowed to carry guns, but they feel wearing a mask makes you... a criminal?? Makes a lot of sense to me... :|


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

^& Fuddy, that 'hinged' mask has got to be a joke surely??


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## Fuddyduddy1952 (Jun 26, 2019)

loosie said:


> ^& Fuddy, that 'hinged' mask has got to be a joke surely??


No...here it is...safe dining in the future![emoji3]

https://www.designboom.com/design/face-mask-hinged-mouth-worn-while-eating-05-20-2020/

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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

loosie said:


> That would be hilarious, if it were funny... that you're allowed to carry guns, but they feel wearing a mask makes you... a criminal?? Makes a lot of sense to me... :|





Your vacation from the news is probably why this is a surprise to you. There are many videos on Youtube of people in the US state of Michigan, and my state of Washington, and several others, who gathered to protest the lock downs, and they arrived to the capitol grounds, some in tactical combat gear, carrying huge assault rifles. dozens of such persons. 

Yes, you are allowed to 'open carry' a firearm in certain states. You can just strap it in a holster on your hip, like in the Old West, and go about your day, shopping, taking your kids to school, whatever. 



If you wish to carry a hand gun in a concealed manner, you must get a special permit, which is more involved. 



I think the joke about the carry a gun AND a bandana is that robbers cover their faces , and then, "Stick 'em up! this is a robbery!" . . . that sort of thing.


I'm not trying to start a discussion on gun rights here, just explain to a 'foreigner' about American gun laws, superficially.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Yeah tiny, I did hear about people turning up with assault rifles to protest about lockdowns. (Wonder if they are the same who don't believe in disease or reckon god is protecting them - heard a lot in our news about those apparently common American beliefs too..) And I do know that everyone is allowed to own guns in America without license. I didn't know you were allowed to just carry them whenever/wherever you wanted tho.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

no. you are not allowed to carry a gun without some kind of registration and background check. At least that's what I have heard.


I own a couple of guns, but they are like ornaments, family heirlooms. we never fire them, don't even have bullets.


enough about that. We are in danger of hijacking this thread.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

loosie said:


> That would be hilarious, if it were funny... that you're allowed to carry guns, but they feel wearing a mask makes you... a criminal?? Makes a lot of sense to me... :|


I've really not run into any problems wearing my mask. The idea behind it is, they don't want you concealing your face if you want to go in and shoot the place up or try to knock it over. They have not made wearing a mask law here in OK, so it's more of a highly recommended thing. Here in OK, we don't have to have a permit to carry, regardless of if we carry openly or even concealed. We're what's called a 2A (2nd Amendment, which gives us the right to keep and bear arms) state, thus carrying a gun is our acknowledged Constitutional right. Also have yet to have a masked subject, carrying legally, to create harm of any kind here. Of course the crooks are A) not supposed to carry, period (if a convicted felon) and B) They don't have legally purchased firearms anyhow and C) They don't care if they're legal or not.

***And like Tiny, this is meant strictly to educate our gun laws and how they differ from state to state. Not trying to debate whether I think it's right or not. Back to your regularly scheduled programming.***


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

jgnmoose said:


> There is a real credibility problem from all of the experts that get air time on COVID-19; everything they have said has been wrong.
> 
> With a track record of always being wrong, how do we know that anything we are doing actually does anything at all for the spread of COVID-19.
> 
> ...



I agree with all of this except the statement that they don't know what they are doing. I disagree. Now the new thing is more people are getting sick at home. Well duh, that's because they are staying at home. This virus is going to spread no matter what we do. Most will be fine and others will not. 85% of the deaths in MN are in nursing homes. That tells me a lot right here. The vulnerable need to be protected. 

Now they want to contact trace and find people in their homes and make sure they are quarantined. If they can't quarantine in home, they will provide a place for them to do so and remove them from the home. 

Quoting Dr. Robert Levin, the director of Ventura County, CA Public Health, "For instance, if they live in a home where there is only one bathroom and there are three or four other people living there and those people don’t have COVID infection, we’re not going to be able to keep the person in that home. Every person we’re isolating, for instance, needs to have their own bathroom. So, we’ll be moving people like this into other kinds of housing that we have available.”

Later on it was retracted as mispeaking or misunderstanding. I say back peddling after much backlash on it. 

I've pretty much been living my life as usual. I'm still working and seeing my horses and going to the grocery store. About the only thing different is that I keep my distance from people and wash my hands A LOT. 

One crew member of 15 got sick with COVID 19 as soon as he got home from a trip. All of the other 14 crewmembers stayed home for 3 weeks in quarantine. They were working with the sick crew member for a full 48 hours in close proximity of each other and this was before masks were being recommended, now everyone is wearing one. No one else contracted the coronavirus as they were tested. Of course they wash their hands often anyway as they are working in a dining car. 

I also believe that this virus has been circulating long before the radars were going off. Quite a few people that I know were sick back in late Nov. early Dec. with exact symptoms as being described as Covid 19. of course no test for this were done but a lot of them were tested for influenza and getting negative results on it. Doctors called it unknown virus.

My gut is feeling suspicious right now over this stuff. Hopefully it will change for the better for all.

I watched a video of a nurse who went to NYC to help. She was crying and begging someone to do something. She said that they are killing people through negligence and mishandling, not even treating the patients for Covid 19. I sure hope that video was not really true. But why would someone do that if it were not?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I really have a hard time when people say they are 'suspicious' about this. That implies malignant intent. While a whole library of mistakes have been made by well meaning, (and some basically disinterested parties), they are mistakes. I doubt ANYONE intentionally created this horrible situation. 

To stir the idea of being suspicious of things, just puts people out there looking for the 'cause', and manufacturing it if needed.


At some point in the future, we will look back on our responses with laughter even. We will know then what we don't know now, and it will make us think that these 2020 actions were puny, or foolish, or overblown, or ? But, we are thrashing in the dark , for the most part. That is not something suspicious. It's just doing the best you can with what you have, . . . for now.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

@tinyliny

I said suspicious not full blown conspiracy theory going on in my head. Isn't it normal to have questions in your head when not everything is normal as you know it?

Negligence in the health care profession is not anything new so why would it not be blown up in a place where they are being taxed to the limit with this virus right now?

This whole thing has gotten people to talking about the spanish flu so I started reading about that. I came across an article written in 2009 about how they think that some of the symptoms that, at the time, they thought were created by the flu were actually symptoms and deaths from aspirin toxicity. At the time Dr's were prescribing 39 grams of aspirin to a patient sick with this flu. Was there intent to kill? Of course not, but dead is dead.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091002132346.htm


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

I'm not suspicious of the virus itself as far as it being serious. We have a ways to go to find out everything we will eventually know about it, and some things we may never know.

There have been some very suspicious things in the response however.


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

@LoriF My approach to the whole conundrum is that I am aware that the doctors don't know everything about this virus, or the immune system in general. But their collective knowledge of the human body and other viruses is much grater than anything I personally could even come close to and they have a better chance of getting it right then I have. They are also winging it - but their "wing" is much bigger than mine.

That doesn't mean I remain in the dark. I have read just about every single peer-reviewed study on this virus. Still, I would most definitely not presume to question the current clinical protocols, because I just don't even come close to knowing enough. I have opted to listen to all recommendations simply to improve my own chances. (Well... almost all. I am not riding with a mask - that's just silly. I nearly waterboarded myself the one time I tried it because it was raining. And I was alone at the yard.)


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

LoriF said:


> My gut is feeling suspicious right now over this stuff. Hopefully it will change for the better for all.
> 
> I watched a video of a nurse who went to NYC to help. She was crying and begging someone to do something. She said that they are killing people through negligence and mishandling, not even treating the patients for Covid 19. I sure hope that video was not really true.  But why would someone do that if it were not?


Healthy skepticism is always better than accepting everything we are told at face value. 
One thing to remember about emotional videos is that they usually represent a perspective of a person. This person's opinions may be strong but not necessarily correct for the situation. For example, if the nurse was upset because people were not getting placed on ventilators early, which was what some recommended (might be seen by her as the only valid "treatment"), if some doctors were against that practice they may have been right. I've read that some believe there was less harm done when less invasive measures were used for as long as possible. 

There also can be a disconnect between what patients want and health care providers want. We saw some of this early on where I live, when very elderly patients had wishes to not be on ventilators or resuscitated if they became ill. This was in opposition to some doctors and nurses who thought we should not let anyone die from Covid, even those who had a poor quality of life beforehand. Some of these patients were talked into invasive measures or had aggressive treatment done when they were too ill to protest. 
If a doctor did respect these wishes, it might strike some the wrong way, if it went against their own moral code.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

LoriF said:


> @*tinyliny*
> 
> I said suspicious not full blown conspiracy theory going on in my head. Isn't it normal to have questions in your head when not everything is normal as you know it?
> 
> ...





I'm sorry. I misunderstood. so what is it you are suspicious of? I'm confused. Suspicious that there is some kind of accidental medical negligence? Or suspicious that the medical protocol is wrong? Or just that we are not seeing the whole picture?


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

In my little corner of the world, our local hospital is very busy. 

Busy with patients who did avoid care due to their fear of the virus. It's been sad to have folks finally brought in for chronic conditions that, if addressed earlier, could have been treated at the doctor's office. 

Some people's fear was so great, they cancelled their home health nurses, aides, and therapists. All of whom could have helped them avoid worsening health and hospitalization. 

I've heard it said the needed responses to COVID-19 highlighted differences between rural and urban populations. I agree with that. At least in part.


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