# Dun/Bay/Buckskin?



## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

This is Buck, my Quarter/Arabian Cross gelding. (Named Buck b/c he looked like a little deer when he was a baby). I know this forum gets this question alot but it never seems to help me, so I made and account to ask once and for all! He is such a light color that he just doesnt seem bay to me or my horse friends. If he was one shade lighter I'd say Buckskin, but he isnt of course. His mother was a sorrel, and his father was a black and white, but thats all the linage I know. His father has thrown palominos before, tho. His face is darker than his body, but it doesnt have a black point except for the skin. He has a dorsal stripe/countershading (I know its not the same thing) thats a dark brown and about an inch wide that runs from his withers at the mane to his tail. He has red tips in his hair, and those are there all year around. He has black rimmed ears, but the tips arent half black. He has white ticking though his barrel. His legs seem lighter towards the back and they are chocolaty colored except for his back legs, which the backs of them are black. I am tired of trying to figure it out, so tell me what I should be calling him...


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

I would probably call him a light bay to be honest, but he looks like he has a more golden sheen to him and I know someone had a horse that looked very dark and reddish like that that turned out to be buckskin through testing. You could test him for cream for $25 to be sure. Horse Tests

Do you know if the palominos that his sire threw were out of buckskin or palomino mares? That would help.


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

I think he threw them with both chestnut mares the breeder had. He threw paints too.


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

I always called him a bay, but all my horsey friends say they arent sure if he is or not, and I met a lady at a horse show who had a dun, and described him to her, but she said he may be red dun, but I know thats not right.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

No, he's not a dun. I would guess his sire is a smoky black, not black then, which you wouldn't know just by looking at him. So he _could_ be a buckskin.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

neither parent is a dun so he can't be a dun he is most like a bay, maybe the creme gene is contributing to the lightness of his coat. A buckskin is a creme gene on a bay horse. Do you have any baby pics?


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

His daddy was half arabian and black and white paint....And the owner bought him at 4yrs old, so he didnt know what the father looked like, and had lost the sire's papers that told you that in a house fire. I saw pics of the broodmares with all their offspring from the past 4 yrs, and also pics of them grown and I was surprised myslef at the palomino, lol...


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

the creme gene can pop out when you least expect it sometimes.


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

Yes, I have baby pics! Give me one moment!


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

He looks like my new baby Jet. His momma is a Palomino and his daddy is a buckskin. I think lil jet is a bay roan.


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

O, wow, he does, lol! Even the star on the head!


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

WOW, he does! Star and everything!


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

yeah i thought the same thing. there so cute when they are young


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

His vet assumed he was named Buck b/c we thought he was a Buckskin, and so her assistant found it necessary to point out to me that he was not a buckskins, but the vet actually stopped her and said he could be, b/c he had the markings. Doesnt he seem to dark for a buckskin tho? He looks like a sandy yellow copper color in the sun,but he has reddish tint to his neck and face.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

genetically he might be I've heard of some weird examples out there. But i still think he is bay. Buckskins are usually born creamy colored not red. So I think he is what you call a golden bay. Jet i think is going to have the same bay color. And if your horse is a buckskin hes not that dark compared to my colts stud Mojo. Mojo is a smutty buckskin he gets dark brown in the winter you can barely tell he is a buckskin that time of year.


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

I think I might try sending for that creme test that Posieden was telling us about. I'll let you know what it says, lol...I think that would be the only way to say for sure. If he's bay, then your right that he would be a golden bay or maybe a copper bay. All I know is he looks like pretty new penny in the sun


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

I would say Mojo is a brownskin, actually. Brown + cream. I have a friend who has one that looks just like that, also called Buck because they assumed he was just a sooty buckskin.


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

Thanks for your help peppy barrel racing!


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Your welcome. Mojo isn't always this dark he is nice a golden now he just get dark in the winter.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

I may or may not send out for the test. He's gelded, and Im not registering him in anything, so he can be whatever color I want him to be I guess, lol... So I guess I'll mix it up and say both whenever someone asks me, lol.... or just tell them to tell me, haha...


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Wheatermay said:


> I may or may not send out for the test. He's gelded, and Im not registering him in anything, so he can be whatever color I want him to be I guess, lol... So I guess I'll mix it up and say both whenever someone asks me, lol.... or just tell them to tell me, haha...


I'd say stick with golden bay you'll get less arguments that way  But he is a beautiful color whatever it is!


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

Can u find a pic of one? I googled it didnt find one. He turns red in the winter. Maybe thst would make him a copper?


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

http://www.ultimatehorsesite.com/colors/bay.html go to this website it shows all the different bay colors.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PecuniaMiAmor (Jul 17, 2011)

I'm going to say just bay. But you can always test and know for sure.


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

Im going to say golden b/c copper isseems to dark, even in his winter coat... or I might go back to saying light bay, lol...


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

I was thinking about it, but I might juts wait. Its $25 dollars and Im not breeding him (obviously), lol and Im not registering him for anything. Just curious is all...Question is am I curious enough to pay $25 to find out a color? lol.... this color thing is hard. Apparently I had my paint all messed up too, lol...


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

This is him at 6 months old in his winter coat


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Bay is bay is bay.


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## sierrams1123 (Jul 8, 2011)

wrong post -->horse forum needs to come up with a delete and a spell check option.


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## sierrams1123 (Jul 8, 2011)

BAY.
all black points so it makes him a bay.
at least as far as I know.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Looks like a bay to me.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

[Looks like a bay to me and then newest pic just confirms that. You just happen to have one that has some golden tone to it's coat. 

QUOTE=sierrams1123;1146534]BAY.
all black points so it makes him a bay.
at least as far as I know.[/QUOTE]

Just FWI, buckskins, brownskins, and browns can and do all have black points. :wink:


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

NdAppy said:


> Just FWI, buckskins, brownskins, and browns can and do all have black points. :wink:


Also dunskin and bay dun..


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Poseidon said:


> Also dunskin and bay dun..


 Yep those too! As well as grullas... Lol Just about anything that starts with a black base can and will have black points. Obviously double dilutes will not. :wink:


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

If you'd like a pic of a golden bay to compare him to, I have a pic of my old gelding that may help. He had just had a bath, so he's all shiny.


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## QH Gunner (Aug 16, 2011)

Ohkay, not to hijack the thread, but I have a question pertaining... I'm horrible with colors unless I can be very general haha. I have a stallion, who was claimed to be a sooty buckskin. When I saw him tho- I thought he looked like a dark, golden bay... However- his 2 of his offspring have been a dun & a red dun... Would that make him automatically a buckskin because the mothers were a sorrel & a chestnut so they'd have to getthe dorsal stripe from the father?!?! this stuff confuses me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Can you post some pictures of the stallion? Just go ahead and make a new thread.


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## QH Gunner (Aug 16, 2011)

Ohkay I will when I'm not on my phone cuz I can't figure out how to post on mobile haha
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## haviris (Sep 16, 2009)

NO, buckskin does not make dun.


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

DraftyAiresMum, YES thanks! That looks like my Buckaboo! 

And just b/c they have black points doesnt make them a bay... if they have a creme gene they will be buckskin, however if that gene is bred into a chestnut horse you will have a palamino...BUT if ur getting your horse from unknown line this can be difficult to figure out. Color is color, and there r so many different colors and opinions on colors, lol....


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

For instance...this little mare looks bay, BUT she is a buckskin!


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## sierrams1123 (Jul 8, 2011)

Wheatermay said:


> For instance...this little mare looks bay, BUT she is a buckskin!


 

they both look like a bay to me but whatever.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

It's a darkened photo, and her face looks buckskin to me.


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## QH Gunner (Aug 16, 2011)

Colors (minus the basic palomino, bay, sorrel, chestnut, blk & wht, brwn & wht haha!) confuse me. What is it that makes that mare a buckskin? Just curious, not disputing haha.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

She's a bay with a cream gene, which dilutes her coat (typically) to a golden rather than reddish color. She's capable of producing, among other things, palominos, buckskins, and other cream horses.


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## QH Gunner (Aug 16, 2011)

I sorta get the cream gene thing (only because I would desperately like a cremello one day & read into it a little) it just amazes me how some of you an look at that horse & realize what it is haha. My grandmother had a homozygous black stallion when i wa younger, & it took awhile for me to get all the genetics with that too haha. I respect you all on that, I woulda assumed she was a bay. When I see a stereotypical buckskin, I know- but it hasta be what most people see as one lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

I guarantee you that the particular mare in question looks more yellow in bright light. Look at her face. Not all buckskins are that way, though, and some really do almost look bay.


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## QH Gunner (Aug 16, 2011)

I do see what you mean in her face, after you said it. Thanks 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

QH Gunner said:


> Ohkay, not to hijack the thread, but I have a question pertaining... I'm horrible with colors unless I can be very general haha. I have a stallion, who was claimed to be a sooty buckskin. When I saw him tho- I thought he looked like a dark, golden bay... However- his 2 of his offspring have been a dun & a red dun... Would that make him automatically a buckskin because the mothers were a sorrel & a chestnut so they'd have to getthe dorsal stripe from the father?!?! this stuff confuses me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't have a pic to go off of but unless you bred your stud to dun's then your stud horse is a dun cause only duns can make duns.


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## QH Gunner (Aug 16, 2011)

See, now this is what confuses me bc that's what I thought, but again- I don't know much about the color genes so assumed I'm wrong. Hopefully tomm I'll have time to start a thread on it when ican upload pica from the computer. I, for sure, don't know the color of the foals dams, I did not breed them. I got the stallion, & his baby for free a day before they were shipped to a badly known auction around here (due to lack of money I guess). I gladly took them as the stud is registered & I have known him from being around his barn (a friend boarded there) & he was such a gentlemen & I loved his personality. I know the foal I have is a red dun, mother supposedly a chestnut & the other was a dun with a sorrel dam. I'll post pics asap, I don't really care about color- as much as the horse & don't plan on breeding him so it's not a big deal, I'm just curious. Thanks for clearly that up tho. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Wheatermay said:


> DraftyAiresMum, YES thanks! That looks like my Buckaboo!


Glad I could help.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

bubba13 said:


> It's a darkened photo, and her face looks buckskin to me.


That was my thought too. The mare in that photo does not look bay to me at all.


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## Cowgirl Up (Aug 24, 2011)

He's a Bay.

Whatever kind of Bay you chose to call him is up to you. In the end, he'd still be a Bay. 

He's got the black mane and tail, black stockings, black nose, and ear points which are all Bay characteristics. They do get red in their hair color, and can also become diluted in summer, but in winter get darker. 

As for the dorsal stripe, he's probably got Dun in his pedigree somewhere and it was passed through to him.

As for the test, if I were you, personally I wouldn't do it. If you're thet curious then do it. But like you said you're not breeding or registering him.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

A horse can have a "dorsal" without having dun but it is and should be called counter-shading. In order for a horse to have a dun caused dorsal it has to *be* a dun of some sort.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

NdAppy said:


> A horse can have a "dorsal" without having dun but it is and should be called counter-shading. In order for a horse to have a dun caused dorsal it has to *be* a dun of some sort.


Well said. My buckskin has counter shading (some months, and no, it is not just the fat crease) and he is not a dun.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Cowgirl Up said:


> He's got the black mane and tail, black stockings, black nose, and ear points which are all Bay characteristics.


Black points are also the characteristics of buckskin, brown, brownskin, dunskin, bay dun, and grulla like we mentioned two pages ago. Black points do not automatically mean bay.


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

LOL, Im glad there is alot of confusion (not just with me)! I am saying he is bay tho. Altho I LOOOVE the buckskins, they (in my mind sight) should be the nice sandy yellow. If I was any other person looking at my horse, I would say bay too. In the summer tho, he always gets me thinking! I just havent seen many bays that color really. The closest I have seen are the various shades of dun and buckskins, but again, its not buckskin in my eyes. For something as common as a bay, there is alot more questions about its variations and genes (dun/buckskins/grulla/etc) than with alot of others. Buck even confuses some of my horse friends in the summer....we all go back to saying bay in the winter, but the moment we see him int he sun with the stripe and chocolate colored points he has, we start second guessing our first guess. Thats the only thing you cant see in the photos is, that his points arent black, they are a hershey color chocolate brown color. His mane/tail are tho (black that is).


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

They're probably just sunbleached. My buckskin mare has brown legs right now too. The end of her tail is also purple from sunbleaching. She's definitely still a buckskin.


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

He's pretty, thats all that counts, lol....well, no...he's a good boy! Thats what counts!


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## Cowgirl Up (Aug 24, 2011)

Poseidon said:


> Black points are also the characteristics of buckskin, brown, brownskin, dunskin, bay dun, and grulla like we mentioned two pages ago. Black points do not automatically mean bay.


Browns do not have black points. If a brown has black points they aren't a true brown horse. How you can tell the difference is they usually have a light brown around their muzzle.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Browns can and do have black points. Lightness on the muzzle, elbow, stiffle area (in other words soft areas not subject to sunfading before the rest of the horse) is what defines a horse a brown. The coloring in these areas do _not_ affect the points of a horse.


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## Cowgirl Up (Aug 24, 2011)

NdAppy said:


> Browns can and do have black points. Lightness on the muzzle, elbow, stiffle area (in other words soft areas not subject to sunfading before the rest of the horse) is what defines a horse a brown. The coloring in these areas do _not_ affect the points of a horse.


Not all browns do have black points though. If they do they are very light and aren't as defined as a bays, buckskins or gullas black points.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Gizmo here is brown and definitely has black points.


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## Cowgirl Up (Aug 24, 2011)

Poseidon said:


> Gizmo here is brown and definitely has black points.


It's actually hard to tell if he's a true brown because his whole face is kinda faded.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

*sigh* That horse is a true brown. See the lightening of the but checks and the lightening in the stifle area? Those areas _do not_ sunfade before the rest of the body and are indicators that a horse is in fact brown.


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## Cowgirl Up (Aug 24, 2011)

NdAppy said:


> *sigh* That horse is a true brown. See the lightening of the but checks and the lightening in the stifle area? Those areas _do not_ sunfade before the rest of the body and are indicators that a horse is in fact brown.


I know they don't. I know a true brown I'm not stupid. 

I never disagreed that her horse wasn't a true brown. i take her word for it. I'm just saying it's a bit hard to tell in that picture.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

And I am saying that it isn't. The fact that the body is lightened in the areas that it is shows that it is a true brown.


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## Cowgirl Up (Aug 24, 2011)

I see the stifle area yes I know that that is always a lighter shade of brown and that's a characteristic of a brown horse. But other horses can have that too if that are faded. 
As for the butt cheek area on the horse, that was probably due to the sun because I've never met a brown horse in my life that has had those highlights.

All browns I have met had the stifle and muzzle area faded. 

The only reason I said it's a bit hard to tell is because all the lighted areas that true browns have this horse has, but they are faded into sun bleached areas.


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

Uhhh....not trying to get anyone made, but that took the fun outta my thread, lol...


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Sorry for hijacking it! 

Back on topic: 
I meant to post this picture and why I mentioned testing Buck for cream.
This colt tested as a buckskin, not bay.









But really, it's $25. I personally don't have $25 lying around and it would be more to be 100% positive out of curiosity. If ever I have $25 lying around, I want to test my mare for Frame Overo, just because I'm curious. Her dam was an overo and Abby has a large blaze, and these two wee spots that show up when she sheds her winter coat, then shrink over the summer until they're only visible if you know where they are. I will never breed her because I don't think she's breeding quality at all. Mentally, probably, but conformationally..no.


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

O i dont care about the hijacking, but I like keeping the happy thoughts. lol... I may do it as a christmas present to myself actually... it doesnt matter, but im just curious that he may be one of those exceptions.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Cowgirl Up said:


> I see the stifle area yes I know that that is always a lighter shade of brown and that's a characteristic of a brown horse. But other horses can have that too if that are faded.
> As for the butt cheek area on the horse, that was probably due to the sun because I've never met a brown horse in my life that has had those highlights.
> 
> All browns I have met had the stifle and muzzle area faded.
> ...


Those places will not sunfade before the rest of the horse so can_not_ be attributed to sunfading... If they do sunfade they will be faded at the same rate as the rest of the horse and not lighter such as in the brown that Po posted.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

NdAppy said:


> Those places will not sunfade before the rest of the horse so can_not_ be attributed to sunfading... If they do sunfade they will be faded at the same rate as the rest of the horse and not lighter such as in the brown that Po posted.


Nd, how do you know that horse does not spend many hours a day laying just right in the pasture so those areas sun bleach first?
:wink:


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

*snort* I would love to see a horse lay down in the contorted position it would take for that! :lol:


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Maybe they have a secret stash of those reflective sunning things some people use....


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Giz is known for being a little whacked out. Now we know what he does when we're not around. :lol:


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

Update: Buck's stripe is faded alot, and looks like its counter shading now. What do u think? Buckskin's are supposed to have that right? Save me $25 dollars if the ansers yes, next month.... lol I was sending out for a creme gene test on him.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Buckskins can have countershading, but it's not a requirement. Mine doesn't.


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

Crap, I meant to attach his pic, lol... here u go....
But thanks for that, so still a chance.... I think I may contact his original owners for the parents registration info...


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

That's countershading for sure.


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

He's looking more bay again, lol... their winter coats r coming in again...see he keeps me guessing...


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

It was alot more prominent, but when I climbed the gate to see his back again, its definitely what I thought. No dorsal stripe anymore!


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

Just for fun since i looks like i'll b up all night with my teething baby, lol.... this is Buck's half brother Tollo. They share the same father (black and white tobiano), but different broodmares. Buck's mother was chestnut, and Tollo's is a dappled classic bay. We call him a dark bay, lol... He turns almost black in the winter. Also that paint's butt in the front his Tollo's full brother, lol!


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

Bucks and his momma 

and then his brothers Tollo (left)and Luke (middle) and Marty (mare/dam)... these boys are full brothers! What a difference, lol...

and there's pappa!


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

Yup still up with the baby, lol.... top teeth seem worse than the bottoms were!


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