# Crazy Horse, attacks lunge whip and people



## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Is he a stallion? How much would you buy him for?


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

ditto to what DressageIt said...is he a stallion? If he is then, the problem will be harder to fix. A stallion should be kept in a seperate pasture/paddock away from geldings and especially mares.

How old is he? How long has he been acting like this?
There can be ways to stop it, but then it might not work. Honestly, I'd send that horse out to a real professional trainer that has handled horses like that before. It's too much of a risk for you to try to break that horse's habits, and it's a risk just having the horse act that way at the stables. 

If he's perfect with you, but not anyone else...ask to buy him from the owner instead of the owner putting him down. Or suggest that the owner sell him instead of putting him down. I'm sure there are people out there that want a challenge :wink: 

First I'd just work with him on the ground. I wouldn't ride him until he's fine on the ground. Do you think he's "attacking" stuff out of boredom...fear....anger....pain....or something else? If he continues to do that I'd more than likely call a vet and see if there's anything mentally wrong with the horse and rule that out first.

Then just slowly working with him. It will take patience...and lots of it from the sounds of things


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## Rebel (Mar 9, 2008)

No he is actually a gelding...
And I think the owner would let him go for 500 euros, but then again he paid a lot for that horse, and knowing him he might try to con some poor person. I can pay up to 2500 euros for him, but I am not sure if I can take responsibility for his actions.


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

Rebel said:


> No he is actually a gelding...
> And I think the owner would let him go for 500 euros, but then again he paid a lot for that horse, and knowing him he might try to con some poor person. I can pay up to 2500 euros for him, but I am not sure if I can take responsibility for his actions.


find out when he was gelded. If he was gelded late in life he could just still believe he's a stallion. 
Try talking to some professional trainers and get some pointers and tips from them..see what they've done in the past to prevent stuff like that.

It will be a HUGE responsibility especially if he isn't changed quickly. You'd definately want damage insurance (if you can get it) so that if the gelding does break something/hurt something/kill something that you will be at least partially covered.

If you don't want to buy him, sit down with the owner and remind him of how much he actually paid for that horse, and suggest getting a professional trainer out. It will cost money, but usually they can at least start to correct the problem


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## Rebel (Mar 9, 2008)

He is 15 this year and has been acting like this for 10 years. 4 out of 5 vets say he is crazy, but I have been working with him for 2 years and I believe that he just does it coz he's bored. He hasn't got mental problems I am sure, people just misunderstand him.
And two trainers have had a go at him, the first was badly injured and the second sent him back after 2 month.
He has come a long way, and I am seriously thinking about buying him and keeping him away from people and other horses for the moment... I just can't cope with him attacking another horse, or maybe yet another person.


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

Rebel said:


> He is 15 this year and has been acting like this for 10 years. 4 out of 5 vets say he is crazy, but I have been working with him for 2 years and I believe that he just does it coz he's bored. He hasn't got mental problems I am sure, people just misunderstand him.
> And two trainers have had a go at him, the first was badly injured and the second sent him back after 2 month.
> He has come a long way, and I am seriously thinking about buying him and keeping him away from people and other horses for the moment... I just can't cope with him attacking another horse, or maybe yet another person.


if he's been like this for 10 years it's going to be REALLY REALLY hard for you to break that habit...by the age of 15 all his bad habits and training are usually glued in his mind, so it's going to take a long time to fix. Of course though, it depends on the horse.

What did the owner do about the horse for the first 5 years he owned him...did he just let the horse go crazy? 

You said you think he does it because he's bored....then don't let him get bored....when you ride him, don't let him stop unless you plan on getting off...keep him going and thinking...collecting, circles, switching directions...keep his mind on YOU...you want him to be "Hmm...I'd better pay attention for I don't know what my rider will ask for next"....and not "I know what the rider is going to tell me to do, so I'll do what I want in the mean time".


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Rebel said:


> No he is actually a gelding...
> And I think the owner would let him go for 500 euros, but then again he paid a lot for that horse, and knowing him he might try to con some poor person. I can pay up to 2500 euros for him, but I am not sure if I can take responsibility for his actions.



Honestly, he would be a HUGE liability. A horse that attacks people and has a track record of killing other horses is not to be taken lightly. 
To be honest, and in my own humble honest opinion, putting him down might not be such a bad idea (alright, I'm bracing for all the "but you can work through it! Don't listen to JDI! comments, and let 'em rip, but hear me out) because:
- what if the horse ends up in the wrong hands? Who is going to get hurt? If the owner might pawn him off on some innocent person, I would rather see the horse dead than the person and/or more horses. (*waits for kick-back of comment*)
- It will take a LOT to get him to be a "safe" horse. Even then you won't ever be able to completely trust him
- A horse that goes crazy and attacks a leaf? Something's not right in his head, and may never _be_ right. 

Personally, I wouldn't want the liability. What if he gets out of a pen someday and goes nuts? Sure you can work him, but in the end, if there's something mentally wrong with this horse, training will NOT change it. Drugs might, but it will always be in the back of your mind that he is capable of terrible things. It's not in a horse's nature to just kill unprovoked - which brings me to my next question: how did he kill the mare and gelding? What provoked the attacks? 

As said above, if he's put to sleep, you won't ever have to worry about him getting in the wrong hands and doing more damage. YOU know his history, YOU can handle him, but sooner or later, someone else will have to handle him for one reason or another - can you take that chance with a clear conscience?


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Rebel said:


> and it's a miracle that I he hasn't hurt me in anyway



= not a safe horse, period.


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## Rebel (Mar 9, 2008)

JDI.. I know what you are saying, and it would be the best.
And it must come across that I'm just keeping him alive for some kind of self satisfaction, as I have become so attached to him.

But I have hope for him somehow, he has come such a long way.

And I mean, he is in the wrong hands at the moment (not me, but his owner), if he just gets away from that owner he might settle a bit too. I mean, his owner shouts and is a complete psycho.

And I don't really know the reason for the killing.. and I know that it isn't in a horses nature to do such things. But I still have hope for the ******.

There is something about him, he doesn't seem to do it in spite.. he just seems to b a bit cheeky and go to far, i know i know.. sound sick haha But at times, he is the most loving horse you will ever meet, and at times he is a beast. 
And I say that he seems to do it due to boredom, because it is kind of logical. All he does is stand in all day, and the only time he gets to go out is once a month with his owner and 3 times a week with me. Otherwise he is in his box at _all_ time. He's not aloud to run around in the paddock on his own coz he tries to jump the fence:/
I'm not sure, but I want to give him another chance.
But there is still that liability, he might do something and then I just can't take can't b responsible. I really have to think long and hard on this one...


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

JustDressageIt said:


> Rebel said:
> 
> 
> > No he is actually a gelding...
> ...


I'm going to have to agree with JDI on this one. If the horse was younger, 4-6 years of age, then heavens it usually can be worked through...but at age 15 it will be too difficult. 

Putting down might be the best thing to do. It might be hard for you, but the horse is dangerous. It might be able to be worked through, but it would take a very long time, and might not even work

Edit: a horse shouldn't be kept in a box all the time. If he tries to jump the fence...build the fence really tall so he can't jump over it even if he tried....using electric wiring for it plus the boards will give an added protection.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Rebel said:


> JDI.. I know what you are saying, and it would be the best.
> And it must come across that I'm just keeping him alive for some kind of self satisfaction, as I have become so attached to him.
> 
> But I have hope for him somehow, he has come such a long way.
> ...


Rebel, I never intended to imply that you didn't know what you were doing, and I sincerely apologise if it came across that way!!

Anyways, I still stand by my original opinion. Since he is older, it will be harder to train out of him, if he can ever be trained out of it. By the sounds of it, he would need strong drugs to calm him down, and that might not even do the trick.

My original reasoning: at some time or another, he WILL need to be handled by someone other than you - can you guarantee yourself that they WILL NOT be hurt? If you take even half a second's hesitation to answer this, this horse is not safe.

It might be heartbreaking, but this horse would be better off being put down. If he can't even be turned out, what kind of life does he have? Stuck in a box stall all day? I would not wish that life on any horse - and I'm terribly sorry if that sounds insensitive, but horses are meant to live outdoors and be able to run around... and if a horse is not allowed to do that, it's not hard to imagine there being side effects of this.
Some horses will try and get out of any confinement no matter how tall the fence, so I'm doubtful that would even work.

The bottom line is he's not a safe horse to be around - not just for other horses, but for people either. I certainly would not want my horse even in the same facility as him, just in case. 

I commend you for wanting to save this horse, and being able to work with him, but I'm sticking to my guns that he should be put down.


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## FGRanch (Feb 9, 2008)

I say put him down...there is far to many good horses to waste the time and money on a bad horse. I know this sounds harsh...but having that horse is not going to get you any where!


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## Abby (Nov 26, 2007)

I think you could give him another chance, it sounds like the horse just needs some attention, and one on one time, he needs things to do, he needs to run around and be a horse for Christs sake! I say either you buy him and give him a chance or advise the owner to put him down because honestly, unless someone that knows what they are doing buys him, that horse will not only be even unhappier but even more dangerous than he is. A horse that is that reactive to his surroundings is probably not only bored but trying to keep busy since its the only time he's not idle in his stall. Yelling at a horse is terrible and it only has adverse affects which probably only ads to his state of instability.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Abby said:


> I think you could give him another chance, it sounds like the horse just needs some attention, and one on one time, he needs things to do, he needs to run around and be a horse for Christs sake! I say either you buy him and give him a chance or advise the owner to put him down because honestly, unless someone that knows what they are doing buys him, that horse will not only be even unhappier but even more dangerous than he is. A horse that is that reactive to his surroundings is probably not only bored but trying to keep busy since its the only time he's not idle in his stall. Yelling at a horse is terrible and it only has adverse affects which probably only ads to his state of instability.


What happens if he gets out, or Rebel is not there one day that he needs to be handled? If he can't even be safely HANDLED, there is a big problem. She says that the only one who can effectively handle him is her, he attacks everyone else. I can guarantee you that even if Rebel buys him, sometime in his lifetime other than her will have to handle him sooner or later. If he can't be handled by anyone other than her, he is a LIABILITY. He does not have a good life right now. He should be put down.


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## arastangrider (Jan 5, 2008)

if the horse is doing thing like this and you are backing away then you need to tell him whos boss you need to becoume scaryer and meaner then he is (dont beat him or anything) but if he thinks he has the upper hand he will continue to misbehave I would find a safe place where you can tell him what to do but he cant get to you that way you wont get hurt and you wont be backing down


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

arastangrider said:


> if the horse is doing thing like this and you are backing away then you need to tell him whos boss you need to becoume scaryer and meaner then he is (dont beat him or anything) but if he thinks he has the upper hand he will continue to misbehave I would find a safe place where you can tell him what to do but he cant get to you that way you wont get hurt and you wont be backing down


arastangrider, if the horse was younger I'd definately agree with you here. It doesn't sound too much of a dominance issue (though parts of it is), it's more of a behavioural (did I spell that right? :? ) issue. Sounds like the owner did nothing and let him get away with his bad behavior and it has gotten worse over the years. The worst thing you can do to a horse is let it get away with something that it shouldn't do.

Same with a horse that bucks when you ride him. If you immediate get off time and again when it bucks, it will think that "hey if I buck, I'll get out of work" and he'll do it just to stop working. But if you stay on (or get back on if you fall off) and make him work, he'll soon realize that "hey, even if I misbehave I'm STILL going to have to work...there's no getting out of it, so I might as well behave". Same thing with that horse. Sounds to me like the owner babied him way to much when he first got the horse, and of course he regrets it now, but it's going to be close to impossible to break the habit.

I'm going to have to agree with JDI. Best thing to do, for the horses safety, Rebel's safety, other horses safety, AND for other people's safety, the horse should be put down. I hate to say that, but this sounds like a hopeless case.

Rebel,
I'm sure you tried your hardest to fix the horses bad habits, but it does sound like it's too much for you. It would be WAY to much for me and any other person I can think of.


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## Cheval (Jan 1, 2008)

Hmm, I hate it when things like this happen.
A lady owns a horse a horse at my barn. A huge, 18hh (and big boned) Heavy hunter/Thoroughbred. He's thinks he's king of the world. Anyway, him and his brother (his owner bought him from a place a few minutes away) both act like they will* KILL *other new horses. And I'm not joking when I say *KILL*. I reason why is bloodlines, and dam. His dam never let any other horse touch let alone look at them, or she'd kill them. Do you think that could be a reason why he wants to kill other horses, and (sometimes) people?

But Rebel: I think it's horrid when a horse will want to really hurt people. Now, obviously this has to do with something in the past. But I really agree with JDI - you REALLY don't want to take chances of him (for example) getting out. This could lead to a lot of damage to you, other people and espically the horse. 

You (and heck - every person!) needs to earn his respect and he needs to earn everyone elses respect. Teach him that there is good in humans, BUT there are limits.
If his owners were to sell him, I don't think anyone would want to 
buy him.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

I've read this thread all the way through. Even though your heart tells you that this horse could be saved, you are not thinking with your head. 

The horse has killed - twice. Two trainers could do nothing and one was injured. This has gone on for years. Even if you could get this horse behaving for you - it would be JUST for you and you could never truly trust him. Someone is going to get seriously hurt.

I've never in my life suggested this but the owners are right - he should be put down. The owners most likely tried helping him during the first 5 years of his life and gelded him hoping that would save him - it didn't. Just like some horses are bucking horses in rodeos, it is their nature.

Don't let your heart get in the way of good judgment.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Rebel i feel your pain. I have a pony who is like that, but not to that extent. He has tried to kill a few horses of mine and has tried to kill me. Tho i didn't get rid of him till he broke my leg, a few months ago i got him back. I am extremely attached to him considering he was my first horse and the first one i ever trained. But he was dangerous, he still is around people who don't know how to handle him. He was a rescue and still apparently has hard feelings against it. But again he is no where near as dangerous as the one your talking about. He just will hurt you if you let him. But he can be controled, he is one of the best trail ponies i have ever come across.

But, in my opinion from what i have read, he is a danger not only to other people but himself also. It would be best if you put him down.


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## daroczy (Feb 14, 2008)

Dear Rebel,

Are you sure he is a gelding? You should check it if he is a cryptorch stallion. He might have another testicle in his abdomen. A vet can check it by a diagnostic ultrasonic examine.

I used to work with a cryptorch stallion and he attacked any horses nearby, even mares in their cycle of productivity. He did not covered the mares, just attacked, kicked and bit them. Finally turned out that even he was gelded, an additional testicle found in his abdomen. After operating him and getting it out, he became better handable - but still not perfect. It turned out when he was 15 years old that he is a cryptorch.

Where do you work?


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## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

Unless you are a VERY experienced horse owner/rider I wouldnt keep this boy around. It breaks my heart to say this but from some of your statements it sounds like this poor horse is already causing you some fears and anxiety which is right off the bat a turning point as to whether or not you should keep this difficult horse.

Horses are not nasty by nature. A horse gets these behavior problems because of what he has had to go thru in the past which 99% of the time caused by human fault.

Would you have the funds and chance to send him to a natural horsemanship trainer? I myself not much for NH but in cases like this one,I think he needs someone who will be able to understand his behavior and re-teach him the world and people are ok. Someone who trains with natural horsemanship in mind will have the patience to dedicate to him and show him what life is really about. I don't know that someone who trains "regular" horse would have the ability to work with him the same way.

It really sounds like this poor horse has gone thru a lot, and as much as I would really consider giving him a second chance, your health is also more important.


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## MoonlightEm (Feb 17, 2008)

I say put him down too! He killed two other horses for god's sake.
This is a mean, ridiculous horse. Save people and other horses for him. Why is it even an issue?


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## Rebel (Mar 9, 2008)

Moonlightem "This is a mean, ridiculous horse. Save people and other horses for him. Why is it even an issue?"
uhm, wondering if you've ever worked with horses. Of course it is an issue, he is in this state because of mankind. He should deserve a second chance... but it has gone to far, and i can nearly see sense now. But still.. found your contribution to the subject weird.

Anywayz.. someone mentioned something about an extra testicle or so, and I am actually willing to look into this, as I am willing to do pretty much anything!

Someone else also said to send him to a natural horsemanship trainer. That kind of means shipping him off to a different country, unless he becomes sedated.. he is way to dangerous to transport.
And basically, NH is what I've been doing with him to get him to where I've got him to now. He is a different horse now, 2 years ago when people saw this big brown beast they screamed in horror and ran. Now, he can be handled (ok.. by one person, and at times he'll let his owner put a halter on him) and ridden. In a paddock I can even ride in a rope halter and a lead rope, now a days he doesn't even react when people watch or when horses walk by the paddock- but outside, he is a different horse. So he can b absolutely gorgeous, but.. he can also be that beast.

The only hope I have is the fact that he has come soo far these last 2 years, and what if I gave him 2 more years i wonder where he will be.
But there I go again, as people have said.. at one point or another someone else will have to handle him. And at the moment, that is impossible, even if i get him a bit better nobody will ever trust him the way I do.
So.. the best for him and his surroundings is for him to be put down, but I am looking in to a few aspects for a bit of hope b4 i give up.


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## appylover31803 (Sep 18, 2007)

I do commend you for wanting to give this horse a second chance. I would say look into everything, and i mean everything, before deciding to put him down. 
Has he had neurological exams? (can they even be done on a horse) I would look into every little thing to slowly rule them out one by one before putting him to sleep. Maybe he just has a chemical imbalance, or maybe he has an extra testicle. It may not solve everything, but it would give an answer and then you'd have a better way to solve things.

Is there someone that you know that is as willing as you to work with him? I'm sure many people would not agree with this, but if a second person to gain his trust, he *might* be more open to trusting more people. It might calm him down too if the days you aren't there, someone else can work with him.

Does he have anything in his stall for when he's bored? My one horse personally love the Uncle Jimmy's hanging ball. It keeps him occupied for a while and he's more willing to work with me.

If he has made a change in the past 2 years, i'm thinking that he might be able to make some more. Some will be big, while others are small.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Rebel said:


> 1) it has gone to far, and i can nearly see sense now.
> 
> 2) someone mentioned something about an extra testicle or so, and I am actually willing to look into this, as I am willing to do pretty much anything!
> 
> ...



1) Agreed.

2) Probably not an _extra_ testicle, I think they meant an undescended testicle, which is possible, but fairly hard to remedy without expensive surgery. Um.. and in order to do ANY exam with him, the vet is going to have to get right in there around his sensitive parts... will he freak out or be fine?

3) Not good. Yet another reason for him to not be around.

4) Sounds a little hard to believe, but that's just me...

5) Okay, say you give him another 2 years... and he doesn't change... so another 2 years... he doesn't change... might hurt people and/or horses in the mean time. He _has been like this for 10 years_ it is NOT going to change overnight. 

6) So what if something happens to you? What if you do buy him and (god forbid) something happens to you? Then what? Or even more simply, what if he gets out of control somehow and you are not there to catch him and handle him - I'm talking in the near future - can you guarantee yourself that you wouldn't be worried about him hurting someone or something? It doesn't sound like it. Most "dangerous" horses can still be somewhat handled, or chased into containment - this doesn't sound like such a horse.

7) I want to ask: How much time and money are you willing to spend on him? It won't be cheap at all. Training a horse this dangerous will cost a ton. Getting an ultrasound done alone is fairly costly. 


Once again, I bring up the fact that this horse DOES NOT HAVE A GOOD LIFE RIGHT NOW. He is confined to isolation and even further confined to a box stall - no turnout, from what I understand. Is this even remotely fair to him? Sure you ride him and he gets exercised a few times per week, but what else does he do? Obviously nobody else will lunge him or work him, so all he does is sit in his box stall all day? Fun.

I have never ever recommend someone put down a horse rather than try to fix it. However, it doesn't sound like you have the finances to do absolutely whatever is needed to make him right again - which is fine! I'm not trying to be demeaning at all - it will cost a ton - I certainly wouldn't have the finances or resources to do it!

If you were a multi-millionaire that had the resources to buy yourself out of any trouble that might arise _and_ pay for vet care and training, then it would be a different story.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Rebel said:


> Moonlightem "This is a mean, ridiculous horse. Save people and other horses for him. Why is it even an issue?"
> uhm, wondering if you've ever worked with horses. Of course it is an issue, he is in this state because of mankind. He should deserve a second chance... but it has gone to far, and i can nearly see sense now. But still.. found your contribution to the subject weird.


Sorry if it sounds harsh, but if MY horse would be killed like that, I'd sue the owner of the killer in all possible ways and would do EVERYTHING to stop it from happening again. I completely agree with you, Rebel, 99% chance people made him like that and it's not even a horse fault, but you can give him a second chance ONLY IF it's safe for other horses and people (like keeping him alone in pasture 100% time).


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## daroczy (Feb 14, 2008)

I don't want to repeat myself, but you HAVE TO check if he is a cryptorch stallion. I see, it's hard to transport him to clinic and make the needed tests with him, but you must do that. That's your responsibility, you might save your horse from slaughter and save other horses and people being slaughtered by him. You can call a vet to give your horse some anxiolythics during being transported and tested.

You wrote you handle "harder" horses in your job. That's why I think if you cannot handle this one, this has to have another main, general problem with his head. I think you could solve any "usual" problems, but it seems to me very unusual. Besides being a cryptorch stallion this may be:

1. Early dopping abuse. Horses have been chemically doppinged in their early years may become unhandable in their later years. It's the same mechanism that occurs with people using drugs and later having schizophrenia.

2. Other brain problem just like stroke (horse may have stroke as humans may too and they may become agressive, or frightened after that), tumor, etc.!

I'm sure this is something you can only solve with a vet's help. 

2. Other general health problems.


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## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

daroczy said:


> I don't want to repeat myself, but you HAVE TO check if he is a cryptorch stallion.


And what if he is? I have handled stallions and they did not act like that (trying to kill humans and other horses, etc.). Even if he is a stud and gets gelded, there are still a whole lot of issues to work through. Yes, horses usually mellow out quite a bit once they are gelded but it sounds like it would take a whole lot of mellowing to get this horse to the point where he's even close to being safe to handle or even be around.


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## daroczy (Feb 14, 2008)

"And what if he is? I have handled stallions and they did not act like that (trying to kill humans and other horses, etc.). "

I also handled cryptorch stallions and they did. And some of them became better after gelding. Not the same type, not the same seriousity, but some of them did.

Usually I am againist gelding as I said at another topic when everyone suggested a girl that she should have gelded his 2 years old "naughty-a-bit" stallion. I suggested her not to geld it, that's why I am a breeder and I can really respect the breeding value of a stallion.
I suggested to rebel to find out if his stallion is cryptorch, because:

1. Rebel wrote about an andalusian horse which is usually too valuable to send to slaughter. This stallion won't be let to bred, because of his hard-to-handle nature and if turns out that he is cryptorch, breeders will not let it to be bred. It has no breeding value. But there is a chance he might became a useful horse - of course never a puppy horse for small children, but a horse he/she can work with.

2. Crypted testicles may become malignant VERY OFTEN, they can turn into cancer. 

By a simple laboratory test which measures the testostreon level in his blood can say if there is a testicle inside. In Hungary it's price is about 100 Euros, it's almost nothing.

Of course there is always a chance that Rebel get him gelded and nothing changes, the horse stays unhandable. Rebel still has the possibility to kill him.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

daroczy said:


> 1. Rebel wrote about an andalusian horse which is usually too valuable to send to slaughter. This stallion won't be let to bred, because of his hard-to-handle nature and if turns out that he is cryptorch, breeders will not let it to be bred. It has no breeding value. But there is a chance he might became a useful horse - of course never a puppy horse for small children, but a horse he/she can work with..




This is NOT slaughter, and CANNOT be compared to it. It is euthanasia, a completely different thing. 

Once again, can anyone tell me if he would have a good life? As a horse-killer, he will be in isolation. Since he can't be turned out, he is stuck in a box stall. Since he can't be handled by anyone safely (EVEN Rebel said earlier that "*she's amazed she hasn't been hurt yet*") - what are you supposed to do with him?

I would not ever board a horse at the same facility with a horse like him - it's not meant to be mean at all, but I would rather my mare be alive, and not worry at all.

If Rebel bought him, she would have to GUARANTEE a life-long home for him, and could NOT sell him in good conscience; she will never be able to trust this horse 100% knowing his history, and could not sell him on because, well, people lie - who knows, the next person might drug him up and sell him at an auction for a nice price because maybe he's pretty. 

Put him down. Plain and simple.


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## daroczy (Feb 14, 2008)

We don't know even why Rebel bought that horse, but I can imagine she bought it because she wanted to have it, to ride it, to handle it, or anyone else. Even I can risk that she loves that horse which may happen to anyone of us. I'm sure she did not bought the horse to put it down or to give him euthanasy. 

I can make difference between slaughter and euthanasy - I'm a medician. Yes, yes, euthanasy means lesser suffering to the horse. But both means that you have surrendered, you do not see any chance in the horse.

But as I can remember, Rebel did not asked us "Should I kill him?" . She asked us what facilities she would have to make for the horse. Her first thought was to try to save the horse, to make him better handable. If she simply wanted to euthanise it, she would not has written anything on the forum.

If you mare suddenly became crazy and attacked other horses, your first intention would be to euthanise her? I think no. You would first try to do anything for her. Then, after all, maybe you would decide to kill her, but only when you are really-really sure there's no other chance.

I'm sure she can keep the horse as separated from dangerous situation as it's possible.

By the other hand, she has to decide. I just tried to give her another opportunity besides killing the stallion, because I thought that's why she wrote the all story.


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## Abby (Nov 26, 2007)

daroczy said:


> We don't know even why Rebel bought that horse, but I can imagine she bought it because she wanted to have it, to ride it, to handle it, or anyone else. Even I can risk that she loves that horse which may happen to anyone of us. I'm sure she did not bought the horse to put it down or to give him euthanasy.
> 
> I can make difference between slaughter and euthanasy - I'm a medician. Yes, yes, euthanasy means lesser suffering to the horse. But both means that you have surrendered, you do not see any chance in the horse.
> 
> ...


Thank you.


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## Rebel (Mar 9, 2008)

I thank everybody for there comments and so on. And I've made a decision, and I know most people will disagree.
But we're both going live on a new ranch for a month, with absolutely no horses or other people there. There's a pasture that he can go wild in, it's 2 meter fencing all the way around, and electric and absolutely huge place. I need time to think on my own with him, it'll be a lot easier to make a decision if I get to work on him on my own, with out that french frog eater (..best I can think of, wont swear on the forum). And then slowly I'll introduce another person, a man called Jeff that I've worked with side by side since i was 10. Everything I know i have learnt from him, and he has put me in a few dangerous situations so he owes me!
Hopefully I will make a decision in the near future!


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## appylover31803 (Sep 18, 2007)

i hope everything works out for you, Jeff and the horse.


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## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

Sounds like you have a good plan, Rebel. If I were you, I would also follow the advice given by others to get the horse vet checked if at all possible. Obviously, this will be difficult due to the horse's current behavior problems, but perhaps you could speak to a local veterinarian about the situation and find out what he or she recommends.


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## FGRanch (Feb 9, 2008)

Wow...umm...not exactly sure what to say! 

Rebel are you aware that not all horses are of sound mind? Just like people horses can be "crazy." 

Everyone is saying that this is human error. Well that could be 100% wronge. Some horses have actual brain disorders. It's a proven fact and it has been found before in more than few horses. 

Like I said before why waste you time and money on a bad horse when there are so many good horses out there that are being slaughted for no reason. 

If you really want to help horses, buy a rescue that is going to be a safe and reliable horse. There are tons of them out there! Did you know that the kill rate of horses in Alberta alone is 1000 horses a week? Why not safe one of them!


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## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

FehrGroundRanch said:


> Like I said before why waste you time and money on a bad horse when there are so many good horses out there that are being slaughted for no reason.
> 
> If you really want to help horses, buy a rescue that is going to be a safe and reliable horse. There are tons of them out there! Did you know that the kill rate of horses in Alberta alone is 1000 horses a week? Why not safe one of them!


Rebel has made his/her decision and I think we need to respect that. If Rebel wants to "waste" money, I think that's really his/her decision. I'm sure Rebel doesn't think it is a waste. 

Essentially, this horse is a rescue. Rebel is his last chance. 

Rebel, are you buying the horse, or will the owner still be in the picture? Either way, good luck to you, and be careful!


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## daroczy (Feb 14, 2008)

Aye, and after causing so much argue and excitement, dear Rebel, let us know what you decide and what happens to you and the stallion! :lol: 

Todavía me interesa ?dónde vives y trabajas?


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

FehrGroundRanch said:


> Wow...umm...not exactly sure what to say!
> 
> Rebel are you aware that not all horses are of sound mind? Just like people horses can be "crazy."
> 
> ...


Thank you. That's exactly what I'm thinking. Personally I think the best decision for both the horse and everyone involved. 

But okay, good luck.


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## FGRanch (Feb 9, 2008)

Well JDI I guess we are alone on this one! 

Rebel-Good luck with your horse. Be careful. And I truly hope that everything works out, but I have my doubts.


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## Cheval (Jan 1, 2008)

I'm a little bit "mixed up" on this whole topic.
In ways, I strongly agree with JDI and FGR. This horse _could_ have mental problems, or this horse _could_ be (litterly) crazy. This horse _could_ very likely hurt you very badly. This horse _could_ be hurt very badly in this process (from the looks of it, worse then he already is - mentaly at least). This is a HUGE risk that you are willing to take and put him through. I think if you can afford all this training, that you should leave your horse in a pasture for the rest of his life and get a (like FGR said) more reliable horse, because trust me - there are millions of horses with a more chance of being sane. I'd rather see you be happy and put the horse down. This is NOT abuse. 
However, if you decide to let this horse sell, he could easily be sold into the wrong hands. This _could_ be overcome, this _could_ be because of humans. You just never know. 
I'm not only trying to think of you here, but also the horse. 
Good luck, I hope you make a good decision.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Heh. I'v worked with a mentally crazy horse once. All she ever wanted to do was run. She would literally run herself to death if she was givin the chance. It took me 3 hours just to get her to walk about 4 steps. She was sent to slaughter eventually, the owners didn't want to keep paying me to work with her because i got her to a point where she couldn't get better.


But best of luck.


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## LuLu (Sep 11, 2007)

That's awful Delete!! Why couldn't they have just put her down?!

Rebel, best of luck with this horse, I really hope everything works out for you.


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## kim_angel (Oct 16, 2007)

Best of luck Rebel.

I wouldnt want to work with a crazy horse like that. You are taking your life into your hands every time you work with him.

If he were mine, I wouldnt send him to slaughter, but I would put him to sleep. We had to do it with a dog once who was biting people and tearing up/killing other animals. Dog trainers werent able to help. As a last resort we had to euthanize for the safety of others.


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## saraequestrian (Dec 4, 2007)

LuLu said:


> That's awful Delete!! Why couldn't they have just put her down?!



Euthanizing costs money. Some people would rather get a couple hundred bucks from the slaughter house to kill their horse. Sad, but true.Not saying the person delete knows did this. But yeah, some people are selfish and would rather get money out of killing their horse than paying for a euthanization.

Best of luck, rebel. I know I sure would'nt have taken him, not in a million years. This may sound selfish, but my, other people, and other horse's health is more important to me than one dangerous horse. 

Sorry if this doesn't make sense ahha, I don't really know how to put it into words.


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## tiffanyp1980 (Jul 15, 2007)

Wow just reading this makes my heart hurt for this poor horse. Are you sure of his background. Did he come from somewhere questionable?


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## FGRanch (Feb 9, 2008)

[/quote]
Best of luck, rebel. I know I sure would'nt have taken him, not in a million years. This may sound selfish, but my, other people, and other horse's health is more important to me than one dangerous horse. [/quote]

^^^I have the same feelings. I'm a person that other people depend on, my son, my husband, my folks, my siblings. I would not risk my life for one dangerous horse. Or anyone elses lives.


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## daroczy (Feb 14, 2008)

Some of your worries I cannot understand. If I have read it correctly, she placed the horse at a farm totally alone, WITH NO other horses or other people there, bordered by an electric fence of 2 meters. She asked the best "problemed-horse trainer" she knows to help her. 

Between that circumstances that horse would be dangereous only for them two and for the grass around him. I don't think anyone else should have be afraid their family and horses from that stallion. 

Maybe she will fail and she will have to surrender. But I still wil respect her because of at least trying to do something only a few rider would try.


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## daroczy (Feb 14, 2008)

FehrGroundRanch said:


> If you really want to help horses, buy a rescue that is going to be a safe and reliable horse. There are tons of them out there! Did you know that the kill rate of horses in Alberta alone is 1000 horses a week? Why not safe one of them!


Then... why don't we all just adopt slaughter horses and mustangs...? Why do we all buy QH, throughbred, and valuable sporthorses for thousends of Euros? Why do we order semen for the same price from great sires instead of rescuing a slaughter horse? 

I don't know how do you all feel about that but I buy a horse when I want to buy EXACTLY that horse. I love or at least like that horse, that horse, not the other one. 

If I want to be altruist, I send money or feed to the Hungarian Horse Rescue Center, their job is to rescue and support as many horses from the slaughter as they can.

Did anyone of you ever rescued a slaughter horse? How does it happen?


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## FGRanch (Feb 9, 2008)

The fact is that she is still putting herself and the other trainer in danger!

Yes I have rescued 17 horses so far, trained them and sold them to loving homes, where they all still remain. Most of them have been well papered QH's with nothing wrong with them. 

We have 5 horse now and 4 of of 5 of them are rescue horses. The only one that is not is our stallion because we didn't want him to have any baggage. All my riding horses (which I do show and place) have all been rescues. 

3 out of our 4 rescues that I have I bought right out of the feedlots. And the other one which I just purchased I bought at a rescue center. 

He is the first one I bought at a center most of the time I buy them out of the feedlot. It's a horrible scene, thousands of horses all being fatten up to kill...


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

kim_angel said:


> we had to euthanize for the safety of others.



Brilliantly said. And not jus for others, for yourself and the horse as well.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

daroczy said:


> Did anyone of you ever rescued a slaughter horse? How does it happen?


My mare is a rescue from neglect.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Rebel, I absolutely understand your decision.
i do know that this horse is dangerous, etc...
I also believe if it was me in the same situation I would do what you are. 
I have some silly eternal hope and optimism that there is good in all horses, no matter how deep.
However, I only believe this if it is a behavoural issue.
I would just like to say please try to get it checked by a vet, as a friend of mine bought a horse who had a tumour in his brain, and it affected his behaviourto the point he nearly killed her.
he would go nuts without warning, totally uncontrollable.
In the end she had to euthanaze it, as there was no way to help it.
very sad 
But i commend what you are doing, and I wish you the best of luck!


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## LuLu (Sep 11, 2007)

saraequestrian said:


> LuLu said:
> 
> 
> > That's awful Delete!! Why couldn't they have just put her down?!
> ...


I know what your're saying, that really annoys me, if people are so self-centred and selfish to let there horse be shipped off to slaughter instead of paying a bit of money to have in humanely killed, well, they don't deserve to have a horse :evil:


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

LuLu said:


> That's awful Delete!! Why couldn't they have just put her down?!
> 
> .


Because they could hardly afford to pay me to work with her. They could afford to keep her yah and have tack and keep her healthy and such. But they are really old and don't have that much money. They couldn't afford it, plain and simple.


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## LuLu (Sep 11, 2007)

.Delete. said:


> LuLu said:
> 
> 
> > That's awful Delete!! Why couldn't they have just put her down?!
> ...


Sorry for going off topic, but it just upsets me when people have horses, and then say they can't even afford to have it put down kindly. If they can't do that, then they really shouldn't have had the horse in the first place, sorry, but that's just how I feel.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

LuLu said:


> Sorry for going off topic, but it just upsets me when people have horses, and then say they can't even afford to have it put down kindly. If they can't do that, then they really shouldn't have had the horse in the first place, sorry, but that's just how I feel.


Really you shouldn't worry about what people _should_ do. Its what they _do_ that matters. And what they do is not think and not care.

Should of, would of, could of, but didn't.


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## LuLu (Sep 11, 2007)

.Delete. said:


> LuLu said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry for going off topic, but it just upsets me when people have horses, and then say they can't even afford to have it put down kindly. If they can't do that, then they really shouldn't have had the horse in the first place, sorry, but that's just how I feel.
> ...


Your absolutely right!!


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## daroczy (Feb 14, 2008)

I don't know how things go in the USA, but in Hungary if you euthanise the horse, besides paying the euthanising fee, you have to pay a high fee for the corpse to be carried away, the totally amount is almost the fee of buying a new colt! That's why many people send their horse to slaughter, which is horrible too, I would never do that. 

I know a man who has about 50 horses and when one of his horses arrives to the last days, he call's the chief vet of the local zoo who euthanises the horse and after carries the corpse to feed the animals of the zoo. It's a bit better than slaughter. 

It's good to hear you can save some horses from being slaughtered, in Hungary the horses sent to the slaughter are usually very-very old or ill or their legs are ruined so much that you cannot use them for anything. Healthy horses almost never are sent to the slaughter, except for the ones breed specially for horse-meat - I think it's disgusting.


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## Tayz (Jan 24, 2009)

Uhmmm....I personally don't think you should buy that horse. I think for your personal safety that you should stay away from him. He sounds very dangerous. People say "Any horse can be fixed." and sometimes I believe that. But not with the way this horse sounds. I think this horse can't be fixed and is a threat to you, other stable hands and other horses.
I know you have gotten really close to this horse, and you feel that you have to save it, but it's not your job to help all horses. Maybe this poor horse just can't be fixed....and it would be easier for you to let him go..
I'm sorry if I sound mean and cruel, but I really don't think you should be putting your life on the line to try and save this horse....even though it might not be able to be saved...


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## DB InTheSouth (Aug 22, 2008)

Shoot the horse.


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## Kentucky (Aug 2, 2008)

DB in TheSouth, exspect to be flamed, I agree with you however. a person's life and safety are more important than a horse's exspecially a known killer of horses and has tried to kill people.


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## IheartPheobe (Feb 15, 2009)

This horse obviously isn't happy. If I were you, I'd go ahead and put the pour guy down. He's really going to hurt himself one of htese days. 
/If you're really, raelly against that and just won't do it- I say, see if they'll let you take him for free and then work up from there. Problems with that would be.. 1) this horse is crazy enough in farmiliar surroundings. A new home ..? Not a good idea. 2) doesn't seem like an ideal trailer horse. heh heh 3) once it's up to you.. it's pretty obvious your gonna keep trying and trying until your hurt yourself or the horse hurts himself. So the best idea would be to just put him down..


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

The OP has not even been on this thread for a year so other than discussing the semantics of dangerous horses you will not be addressing the person that started this thread *A YEAR* ago.


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## ilovemyPhillip (Apr 4, 2009)

Wow, I've read through all page of this, I guess of what I would call a debate.

In my own opinion, I have mixed feelings about this whole thing. I very strong part of me agrees with JDI, and my own opinion is with her. But the simple solution is not to just put the horse down. You have to atleast try a little harder. From what I read you have come far with this stallion, but Rebel YOUR solution isn't the best either. If he has killed other horses in the past, he has a mental issue. I really don't care who told you he doesn't - but it takes crazy to kill. I know, I work with mental people everyday. My best friend has a very long record of mental issues, actually, both my best friends do. 
What I mean by your solution isn't the correct one, Rebel, is that if you forever isolate this horses, its like leaving him in a padded cell, he'll just go insane, and find a way to kill him self. I've seen horses who were in a phyc-ward, and threw themselve's against walls because of a mental problem. Your horse may be phycotic, sorry. If he does have a large number of problems the BEST solution is to be put to sleep, or go on some heavy meds. I know its hard to take in "The Horse Has To Die! The Horse Has To Die! The Horse Has To Die!" and I wouldn't want to listen either. I'd want to reject the idea, but YOU know in YOUR heart it is the best possible answer. I understand you have grown attached, but its the best idea. I'm sorry. But I'm willing to help you if I can. So we've elminated that
-Mental issues - NO (get that checked)
- Stallion - NO - (You also my want to put him under an anistectic to get that one checked).
Bordom - Possibly - (no level of bordom can be so tiring to result and murder a herd-member)
Abusive history - ? - (Have you checked into this?)
------------------------
My overal opinion is that your horse may have phycosis. I mean at least I think so.

DB InTheSouth - sooting the horse isn't the answer. Obviously you have to do it right. If you hit him wrong, he might live for a few moment before death, and those will be very painful.

Oh - one last thing, maybe he has the same problem dobermans get. Doberman Pinnchers have small skulls, and sometimes, theyre brain keeps growing, and "outgrowns" their skull, and it put preassure on the brain resulting in... issues.

I hope JDI and other can help me elaborate more, I'm sorry if some things don't make sense I working on just a few hours of sleep.


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## aruraeclipse (Mar 22, 2009)

...Maybe he has a brain toumour, or just came out like that knowing he can get what he wants through violence. I don't know what to say. I'm verry sorry that this has happened, Maybe clamity jane would have some help for you if you pm her, she is good with natural training.


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## Jane Honda (Feb 27, 2009)

daroczy said:


> "And what if he is? I have handled stallions and they did not act like that (trying to kill humans and other horses, etc.). "
> 
> I also handled cryptorch stallions and they did. And some of them became better after gelding. Not the same type, not the same seriousity, but some of them did.
> 
> ...


So, you are saying that EVERY male horse is breeding quality? Why would you breed a horse with a nasty temperament, or nasty conformation, or both? 

And, an Andalusian is worth as much as any other horse that is out killing other horses, and harming humans...


I can feel your heart ache, Rebel. But, I do agree with other people. He should be humanely put down.


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## Jane Honda (Feb 27, 2009)

Spyder said:


> The OP has not even been on this thread for a year so other than discussing the semantics of dangerous horses you will not be addressing the person that started this thread *A YEAR* ago.




Mybad...


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## reining girl (Jan 30, 2009)

I think it should be put down that is a horribly dangerous horse and the fact that it attacks and has killed horses, im sorry to say this, but i dont think there is hope for that horse.


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## luvsmygirls (Mar 3, 2009)

personally i think that any horse that attacks and kills another herd member needs to be put down. i know this thread was started a year ago but after reading the whole thread through i felt that i had to agree with JDI and the others. we do not allow dogs who have attacked and killed other dogs or animals to live and a horse is a whole lot larger than a dog. dangerous animals need to be put down for everyone saftey. sorry if that sounds cruel but it is only logical.


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## Calamity Jane (Mar 16, 2009)

> All he does is stand in all day, and the only time he gets to go out is once a month with his owner and 3 times a week with me. Otherwise he is in his box at _all_ time. He's not aloud to run around in the paddock on his own coz he tries to jump the fence:/
> I'm not sure, but I want to give him another chance.


You're right, this is the real problem. He probably doesn't know how to be a horse, so to speak. He is more than likely bored out of his skull. 

I think if you're going to be willing to keep him, get him a very high safe fenced in PASTURE and don't use stalls again. He needs room to move around and to be a horse first. 

If he gets grain, cut that out. Get the mildest of hay for him only. And every day exercise (pasture setting only) and your training as added exercise. 

Good luck. Sounds like you may be his only and last hope. :-|


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## DB InTheSouth (Aug 22, 2008)

If this were a person we were talking about, that was "loving" and "affectionate" poor ting just had a bad upbringing, and by the way just happened to KILL a few others along the way...would we even be having this conversation? Anyone drawn to these personality traits has more problems than the freakshow horse does.
Shoot the horse.


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## successfulhorse (Jan 29, 2009)

I have worked with dangerous and self-destructive horse. Some that have seriously injured and maimed people for life. A forum such as this cannot possibly give you all the help you will need. However, here are some things to think about. 

Does the horse have a neurological or physical problem? Pain could be causing much of this behavior. 

This is horse is in extreme conflict that needs to be eliminated. This can be done by going back to the basic movements of stop, forward, turn, head down, etc. While this sounds simple, it is the simplicity that will make things right. 

Dr. Andrew McLean is world renowned behaviorist and may be of help. You can read his articles at www.aebc.com.au.

Please stay safe and find someone who can help.

www.successfulhorse.com


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