# Bucking/kicking out when I use my leg on



## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

> The vet came, money was lost, but Bull was better.


Can you explain this? Did the Vet find anything? Was it determined that it was strictly behavioral?

If the Vet did not find anything, then I would guess it is behavioral. Horses, being 'creatures of habit', pick up bad behaviors very easily. There is usually a 'pay-off' for every bad behavior a horse learns. With bucking, it is usually that the rider pulls the horse up and it gets a break from work.

The best way to counter this is to get someone that can ride a tough horse and have them roughly push a horse through this a few times. A cowboy with a stock saddle and a job for a horse like this does wonders. It is probably the best attitude adjustment there is.

A couple of other thing to remember ---

NEVER longe a horse with a saddle on and then let it buck and play on the line. If a horse needs to buck and play, turn it loose. If it is on a longe line and/or saddled. it should behave as well as you want it to behave when you ride it -- always. Some horses buck and play when saddled and get the kinks out of their systems. Others just get practice and decide they like to buck and play better than they like to work. 

If I longe a horse like this, it is never saddled and it is always for obedience and responsiveness; it is never just for exercise. 

The other thing to remember is to warm a horse up in a way that you think you can handle him. [Again, you do not want him practicing bad things.] But, also remember, every time you pull him up, 'score 1 for the horse'. They keep score. Whenever you hit the score where it is horse 10 and rider 1 or 2, they are pretty much going to do what they please when they please and it isn't going to be working for you.

If you have a very rough place to ride, warm a horse up there. I've used plowed ground, deep sand, water, steep hills (really steep) and I've used a pony-horse to pony an obnoxious brat until it was ready to behave with just a rider. I used to even take horses to the sale barn. I would ride up and down the long alley and every time the horse put a hump in his back, I pulled him hard around toward the fence and headed off very hard the opposite direction. Every time I pulled him around, I changed the direction I turned him. I have gone up and down an alley like that until the horse was sweating hard and had thoroughly given it up. Once a horse gives it up, it is just like a light switch has been turned off. 

Hope this helps. Cherie


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## taichihorse (Dec 19, 2014)

Hello
has anyone checked the saddle fit on the horse? That sounds like the issue. When giving the aids you should squeeze the horse where your legs touch the horses side. Gently asking them to go forward instead of bullying and kicking like some people recommend is the best way forward. I am a qualified european trainer in the UK
TAI CHI HORSE


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## BullsFirstTrick (Jan 20, 2015)

The vet found that his hind legs were very sore and in compensating for that soreness he had also made back sore. I believe he has had every joint injected from his stifle to his fetlock in both hind legs. He has aways been a bit back sore but it has greatly improved. He rarely plays on the lunge and lunging him before I ride doesn't improve the bucking

If it weren't for my most recent concussion and leg surgery and 3 other recent injuries (all 5 occurred in the last 6 months), I would be more than willing to push through it. I also can't risk another injury and more missed school days. I have a few willing friends in Ohio we offered to ride it out. I hope that they are able to get him through without any injury and Bull has a lightbulb moment. If I were in Kentucky and my trainer wasn't in Aiken, I would have her do it. 

My saddles fit him perfectly and he will buck even if I'm riding him bareback. When I ask for and movement, either forwards or sideways, I always start by asking with my calf. I wear the worlds smallest spurs and only use them when he refuses to move. I don't blame him for bucking if I accidentally catch him with my spur but bucking when I squeeze with my calf is a bit much.

Thanks so much for the replies, Cassie & Bull


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

So, he has to be injected not to be sore? 
Sorry, sounds like Bull is in pain after all.


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## BreezylBeezyl (Mar 25, 2014)

I'm not a vet but given the history, sounds like the horse may be in even greater pain than before since the issue has escalated at all gaits. Looks like he's telling you it hurts all the time now.

I have a feeling like more money is going to be lost...  Hope you get it figured out!


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## EliRose (Aug 12, 2012)

I would get the vet out again. Standing around without turnout may be exacerbating the soreness, even with injections. I know my OTTB with very mild arthritis has been a little sore this winter because he has to be stalled overnight (far too cold for him in MT) and he can't move around like he needs to. What seems to help is throwing him into the indoor, off-line, for fifteen minutes everyday before riding, or even tacking/grooming. It seems to loosen him up and he gets to work his kinks out by himself. Maybe try letting him out into an enclosed riding ring before trying to get on? Even if he can't get turnout?


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## BullsFirstTrick (Jan 20, 2015)

The vet has been out to look and Bull many times since he was injected at the end of last March. A lameness expert also came out and gave him a clean bill of health. He currently flexes negative in all four legs. Bull has got his ways of letting me know when there is something medically wrong with him. I'm not completely positive that his recent outbursts are not out of pain or other reasons that we should get a vet to double check. I am very intent on finding the source of his reactions but also want to learn about more of the behavioral possibilities to expand my knowledge and problem solving abilities.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I would question a Vet that thinks that many joints need to be injected. 

I would be more prone to give this horse Bute and see if he rides any differently. I have found that tells me a lot more about what a horse is 'feeling' and why it is misbehaving. 

The last time I did that, the horse was 10X worse. Why? He was more uncomfortable before I gave him Bute. He was much more resistant and obnoxious when he had no problems.

The old Vet I use told me to Bute him twice a day and ride him hard for a week. I was told to long trot him and lope him in frame (rounded and stretching his topline), both leads, big circles. Cut Bute in half and kept working him daily for another week and then see how he did without any Bute. He was about much better but still not right. Ultimately, he got more relief from a good Chiropractor.


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## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

Your horse is still in pain. Has he been checked for ulcers? He is a prime candidate for ulcers. I would be shocked if he didn't have any.


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## BullsFirstTrick (Jan 20, 2015)

I have been considering the possibilty of ulcers. I don't know if it makes because the bucking comes and goes. One of the trainers rode him yesterday and said that he did it a couple times and then stopped. Unfortunately he abscessed today so he will be getting some time off. This also made me think that maybe the abcess was bothering him. Before the trainer rode him he was outside in the snow and I almost wonder if it numbed it a bit. Either way hopefull this was the problem and he will return to work like his old self. The reason his joints were injected was because the joint fluid wasn't sticky enough. He is completely arthritis free and we x-rates him first to be absolutely sure. Except for the obvious risk of infection what are the other negative risk factors? I don't understand why you wouldn't want to make your horse comfortable if injections could do that. If they don't have a positive effect then the issues would have to not be joint related. I have a horse who we injected and he competed and tackled every challenge in front of him. When we were very surprised to see him acting like he need more injections in way less time than the shortest period that they are expected to last. It turned out that his hawks were fusing and once they didn't he would be okay but couldn't compete. He is now very happy taking little girls over their first fences while still getting his hawks done once a year.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hi, I agree with Cherie all round - I agree with the behavioural advice IF it is behavioural, but it sounds very much likely to be pain to me. 

His (long) history of being raced, his previous(seemingly severe & widespread) pain, having only had injections a year ago & nothing since(joint injections are generally palliative & temporary - they don't actually fix anything, without other measures), that he was OK for a fair while for you but has become worse. That he's worse when asked to canter, where he has to use his hind end a lot harder, and also where any saddle fit issues are 3 times worse than at slow paces. And ulcers are also a strong possibiility for him which could make him reactive to leg aids...

I'd be going with a good chiro vet too, or other good body expert as, like human GP doctors, vet might know lots about lots, but if they haven't specialised in bodywork(or whatever area) they don't necessarily have a lot of knowledge on those specifics.


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