# I thought "peanut rollers" were a thing of the past



## smrobs

I thought the WP horses known as peanut rollers were a thing of the past but I guess I was wrong. I came across this vid and just felt sooo sorry for this poor horse. That is completely not a natural gait and what amazes me is that he is winning shows. The poor thing just looks so lethargic like he has not slept in weeks. :"(


----------



## BuckOff41570

I think the horse isnt that bad. In my personal opinion he needs to be pushed out more to be in true gaits. His cadence is off a bit at the jog and he's 4-beating at the lope. The gaits look artificial but I like the actual horse. 
I'm going to the Just For Pleasure show in a couple weeks to kinda see where western pleasure was this year and plan on taking some vids. I'm really hoping that I see more true gaits then stuff like this. I'll just have to wait and see. 

Anyway...take a look at this. It was the pleasure horse that won the Bayer select world. I thought the horse was an absolutely beautiful mover.


----------



## southafrica1001

Just wanted to ask what a peanut roller is? sorry if its a dumb question  but i dont ride western and ive never heard of the term. Thanks


----------



## BuckOff41570

southafrica1001 said:


> Just wanted to ask what a peanut roller is? sorry if its a dumb question  but i dont ride western and ive never heard of the term. Thanks


Its basically a fad that the western pleasure industry went through when the ideal pleasure horse was put to extremes. "Peanut roller" is a name given to the horses that exhibited an abnormally low head carriage(ears far below the withers) and seemed lethargic in its movements. When 4 beating,being over canted on the rail, and executing cripplingly slow gaits were considered the "ideal".


----------



## GottaRide

The horse only needs to be pushed up a little bit to get him to engage more. He is not four-beating, but his hind end is not driving as it should. 

When this horse has a little more drive, his cadence will improve, his head will come up and he will present a much prettier picture. Sometimes it's all in the way the horse is ridden.


----------



## BuckOff41570

GottaRide said:


> The horse only needs to be pushed up a little bit to get him to engage more. He is not four-beating, but his hind end is not driving as it should.
> quote]
> 
> Its not four beating? I was taught that if a horse's outside legs (at the lope of course) don't hit the ground at about the same time its four-beating. As the outside legs are supposed to be 1 beat.


----------



## farmpony84

The first one looks broken. I hate that peanut roller gait. The second one looks comfy.....


----------



## WesternPleasure27

BuckOff41570 said:


> Its not four beating? I was taught that if a horse's outside legs (at the lope of course) don't hit the ground at about the same time its four-beating. As the outside legs are supposed to be 1 beat.



How are the outside legs supposed to hit at the same time? That'd be a pretty funny looking gait.

The outside hind and inside front are supposed to hit at the same time.

The lope goes-
Inside Hind
Outside Hind+Inside Front
Outside Front


----------



## Supermane

WesternPleasure27 said:


> How are the outside legs supposed to hit at the same time? That'd be a pretty funny looking gait.
> 
> The outside hind and inside front are supposed to hit at the same time.
> 
> The lope goes-
> Inside Hind
> Outside Hind+Inside Front
> Outside Front


Actually it's outside hind, inside back +outside front, then inside front. You just described the wrong lead.


I have to saw, I watched both videos and didn't see _that_ much difference. Both looked short strided and lethargic to me...


----------



## farmpony84

Supermane said:


> Actually it's outside hind, inside back +outside front, then inside front. You just described the wrong lead.
> 
> 
> I have to saw, I watched both videos and didn't see _that_ much difference. Both looked short strided and lethargic to me...


...Shows how much I know! For some reason I was thinking only one foot hit the ground at a time... or is that at a gallop? I don't know.....

The same legs could hit the ground at the same time... side and side or opposite fronts...but that would be a gaited horse....:wink:


----------



## Supermane

farmpony84 said:


> ...Shows how much I know! For some reason I was thinking only one foot hit the ground at a time... or is that at a gallop? I don't know.....
> 
> The same legs could hit the ground at the same time... side and side or opposite fronts...but that would be a gaited horse....:wink:


That is a gallop.
back hind, back inside, outside front, inside front.


----------



## BuckOff41570

This vid explains what I mean about the outside legs hitting the ground at nearly the same time. Not like a gaited horse. I don't really know how to explain it.


----------



## DarkChylde

Second one wasn't so bad, looked okay. But that first one was definately peanut rolling.


----------



## WesternPleasure27

Supermane said:


> Actually it's outside hind, inside back +outside front, then inside front. You just described the wrong lead.
> 
> 
> I have to saw, I watched both videos and didn't see _that_ much difference. Both looked short strided and lethargic to me...


Regardless, the same side pairs do not hit the ground at the same time.

A four-beating horse would just have the inside back and out side front hit at 2 different times so it would be...outside hind, inside hind, outside front, inside front or outside hind, outside front, inside hind, inside front..this combo would give the "same side hitting at almost the same time" appearance which would NOT be proper carriage.

The horse is hitting the diagonal at the same time and is therefore not four-beating.
There were "trope" moments in the second direction...I didn't watch the whole video at first, but his first direction is correct, he just needs some more push to right.

Also, WP horse are SUPPOSED to have shorter strides...a big, long strided, sweepy gait is undesirable and left for the HUS horses.
I don't think he looks lethargic at all.


----------



## JustDressageIt

That first one looked ouchy, like it had recently trimmed feet.

Must be the english rider in me, I like to see impulsion from behind, and tracking up.

Oh well.


----------



## WesternPleasure27

"UPDATE!!!!!! Vic won the Novice AM. Pleasure at a QH show on July 28 08. Hes still out there winning and owner says bring all offers!!!!! CHECK OUT HIS NEW VIDEO UNDER MY OTHER VIDEOS!!!UPDATE Vic is a 16H '98 bay gelding and is a proven show horse with over 140 AQHA western pleasure points. He is a multipule world show qualifier and placed 4th in the youth 15-18 pleasure at congress."

Obviously that first horse is lethargic, ouchy, and an improper mover.

Also, how would one of you like it if someone took a video off your page and posted it to be ripped apart and have bad things said???


----------



## smrobs

That is one of the risks you run when you post a vid on a PUBLIC forum.  Also, just because he is winning, doesn't make his movement in that video correct.


----------



## DarkChylde

HEL-lo, THANK you, Smrobs, that is such a pet peeve of mine.

If you don't want people to see you, (and thereby judge you, duh) then don't be posting you stuff on the internet! I mean, what do you expect? You just basically put up a billboard (posting on youtube) with yourself on it, did you not EXPECT to be seen (and therefore, judged?)

And you are right about something else, Smrobs, just cuz they win in shows don't mean it is good, right, or proper riding. After all, look at the popular 'Big Lick' at the gaited shows. OT, I know, and I won't get started, but I hate seeing horses tortured for any reason, but particularly for some lame human fashion.......


----------



## farmpony84

WesternPleasure27 said:


> Also, how would one of you like it if someone took a video off your page and posted it to be ripped apart and have bad things said???


In all honosty this statement is correct. We are only supposed to critique our own horses...


----------



## kickshaw

DarkChylde said:


> After all, look at the popular 'Big Lick' at the _gaited_ shows. OT, I know, and I won't get started, but I hate seeing horses tortured for any reason, but particularly for some lame human fashion.......


Big Lick WALKING HORSE shows ;-) Not all gaited breeds do that! 

(sorry, back on topic now)

Peanut Rolling is phasing out, just as 80's hair is still phasing out...it will take everyone a while to catch up, but I think in general the breed is moving in the correct direction.


----------



## southafrica1001

BuckOff41570 said:


> Its basically a fad that the western pleasure industry went through when the ideal pleasure horse was put to extremes. "Peanut roller" is a name given to the horses that exhibited an abnormally low head carriage(ears far below the withers) and seemed lethargic in its movements. When 4 beating,being over canted on the rail, and executing cripplingly slow gaits were considered the "ideal".


Thanks so much for your help


----------



## SonnyWimps

I thought it was a thing of the past also! But I did notice two horses at the show that me and Sonny went to that looked like that...I hate the look honestly. It's not something that I'd ever want to do. A low head below the withers is one thing...but moving like it's too painful to move isn't a "classy" look to me


----------



## JustDressageIt

Too bad fashions aren't in the horse's best interest. 
For example:
- Peanut rollers (seriously, it won't hurt your horse to move out a little.)
- Upright pasterns in halter horses (one gentleman I work with (multiple world titles) says it's rare to have a halter horse sound after 4; if he is, he wasn't that great; how pathetic is that?)
- Big Lick getting bigger and bigger every year... through inhumane devices. 
- Starting show careers under saddle at 2 years old in AQHA.
- Rollkur in dressage
- Rapping in jumping
- Spiked bell boots in jumping
...and the list goes on.


----------



## farmpony84

JDI...

You forgot the horse racing industry... don't they start them at like... 17 months or something insane like that?


----------



## BuckOff41570

I guess what it comes down to is that you should do what you enjoy. Whether it be western pleasure, dressage, hunter/jumpers, cattle events or just trail riding. No dicipline is perfect and can't change over night. But the process and the effort to try and make it better is what matters. People will always find problems with the way a horse is trained, moving, acting, looking...whatever. 

I kinda have this outlook on it...if you don't like the way it looks. Change it. The power is in the exhibitors. Change the horses in the arena and you'll change the dicipline as well as the way its percieved by the rest of the industry.


----------



## BuckOff41570

farmpony84 said:


> JDI...
> 
> You forgot the horse racing industry... don't they start them at like... 17 months or something insane like that?


Yup. Around that age. Its all in how they're started. Don't get me wrong...I personally wouldnt start em that young but I do know an owner (former Jockey) who has been breeding and racing TBs for years. She's had several and after their racing careers they went on to become riding horses. Sound,sane, and happy. 
But, again, if theres gunna be more money in the young horses why would someone waste their time waiting for them to come into their 4 year old year and not have the opportunity to make as much? Futurities pay out more...and people always seem more attracted to money rather than a ribbon.


----------



## farmpony84

I kind of figure it's like this... 

If you want to play and enjoy your horse, then who cares about proper training as long as it's safe...

If you want to show locally or backyard then... who cares about "proper" or "correct" training methods as long as it's safe...

If you want to show in upper levels then you are stuck following some of the fads and some of the more traditional training methods becuase your end result, in order to be competitive, has to match the norm... or the current fad....

The fact of the matter is... if the horse is safe... and the rider is safe... then have at it! It's all for the love of the horses anyway... right?


----------



## WesternPleasure27

smrobs said:


> That is one of the risks you run when you post a vid on a PUBLIC forum.  Also, just because he is winning, doesn't make his movement in that video correct.


Yes, when YOU post the video on the public forum and ASK for someone to critique you.
Are you the owner of this video?
Did you ask permission to post this here?
I _don't _think so.

Just because it's not your cup of tea doesn't mean it's wrong and the most horrible thing ever done.
I think he looks like a nice, responsive, light horse.
If you don't like it, don't ride it.


----------



## LauraB

Well said westernpleasure27. Those in glass houses should not throw stones. How would any of you feel if someone took a picture or a video of your horse that you love and ripped him apart?


----------



## JustDressageIt

WesternPleasure27 said:


> Yes, when YOU post the video on the public forum and ASK for someone to critique you.
> Are you the owner of this video?
> Did you ask permission to post this here?
> I _don't _think so.
> 
> Just because it's not your cup of tea doesn't mean it's wrong and the most horrible thing ever done.
> I think he looks like a nice, responsive, light horse.
> If you don't like it, don't ride it.





LauraB said:


> Well said westernpleasure27. Those in glass houses should not throw stones. How would any of you feel if someone took a picture or a video of your horse that you love and ripped him apart?


It's a risk you run for posting a video on the internet for all to see. If you don't want something critiqued, or if you want to make sure it will never get comments good or bad, you don't post it on the World Wide Web.

If I ever post something that's worth being ripped to shreds, then I deserve it. Have at 'er.

Just a general thought not aimed at anyone:
Unfortunately the world isn't sunshine and rainbows... I sincerely wish it was sometimes, but it's not... having a horse video critiqued is not the worst thing that could happen to a person.


----------



## WesternPleasure27

JustDressageIt said:


> It's a risk you run for posting a video on the internet for all to see. If you don't want something critiqued, or if you want to make sure it will never get comments good or bad, you don't post it on the World Wide Web.
> 
> *If I ever post something that's worth being ripped to shreds, then I deserve it. Have at 'er.*
> 
> Just a general thought not aimed at anyone:
> Unfortunately the world isn't sunshine and rainbows... I sincerely wish it was sometimes, but it's not... having a horse video critiqued is not the worst thing that could happen to a person.


This person DOESN'T deserve to be ripped to shreds.
What would happen if I pulled a video of YOU off of somewhere, posted it here, and ripped on it?
I probably would get in trouble wouldn't I??

Who CARES if these people aren't here to complain and defend themselves?
It doesn't make it anymore right.

You aren't allowed to post horses that don't belong to you in the critique section, so why should you be allowed to post them elsewhere?

Had this been a video of Congress or Worlds and not just one specific horse and someone's own video, that would be different, but it's NOT.

As I said before- If you don't like it, DON'T RIDE IT.


----------



## JustDressageIt

WesternPleasure27 said:


> This person DOESN'T deserve to be ripped to shreds.
> *What would happen if I pulled a video of YOU off of somewhere, posted it here, and ripped on it?*
> I probably would get in trouble wouldn't I??
> 
> Who CARES if these people aren't here to complain and defend themselves?
> It doesn't make it anymore right.
> 
> You aren't allowed to post horses that don't belong to you in the critique section, so why should you be allowed to post them elsewhere?
> 
> Had this been a video of Congress or Worlds and not just one specific horse and someone's own video, that would be different, but it's NOT.
> 
> As I said before- If you don't like it, DON'T RIDE IT.


 
As I said, go for it. I know my riding and my flaws. Frankly, this is the internet, and I'm not about to be too insulted by someone "lol"ing at me. 
Secondly, I would never post something I didn't mind people commenting on in the first place. The internet is not private, and you post at your own discretion.

ETA - you all know my opinion on this thread, so I am going to slowly back away and not continue with this discussion which is off topic. 
Anyone is welcome to PM me if they'd like to discuss further, I would be more than happy to.


----------



## WesternPleasure27

Obviously, you don't get it.
I would get in trouble by mods or other members would look down on me for it whether YOU liked it or not....simply because you are a member and not asking for the comments.

Talk about a double standard....


----------



## farmpony84

WesternPleasure27 said:


> Also, how would one of you like it if someone took a video off your page and posted it to be ripped apart and have bad things said???





farmpony84 said:


> In all honosty this statement is correct. We are only supposed to critique our own horses...


As said before WP27 is correct in stating the fact that it is in poor taste to rip apart a video or a picture that does not belong to a member of this forum.


----------



## Harlee rides horses

I vote, y'all should drop it


----------



## WesternPleasure27

This hasn't been discussed in days...
It WAS dropped.


----------



## DarkChylde

(In response to Kickshaw's comment earlier...)


God I hope so.

Oh, believe me, I know not all gaited breeds are into that crap (Big lick, I'm talkin.) I was at a local show recently, and somebody had a big licker there, with chains on even (hubby wouldn't let me near them, he didn't trust me:lol but I was pleased how they were sneered at by almost everyone there, especially by this one chic who has walkers. I didn't need to say anything, my fellow horse enthusiasts took care of it for me.

That was off topic, my apologies.

I always like the western pleasure classes with Arabians, they have never had that kind of thing.


What needs to change is the judges that approve that kind of thing, peanut rolling AND the 'big lick.


----------



## I Love Lane

i am sorry for bringing this topic back to life but i have been away and have only just read it.

I like him. I will happily stand here and take what anyone has to say about that on the chin cause i think that he has a lot of potential. He DOES need to drive a bit more from his hind end and he is almost walking in the front end at the jog a fair amount of the time but not to insult the rider cause he obviously can ride, it is all things that are rider error and he could VERY easily be moved into the top ranks of the pleasure arena with the right passenger on board.

You can tell your friend that if you want WP27.


----------



## WesternPleasure27

I Love Lane said:


> You can tell your friend that if you want WP27.


I don't actually know the person in the video...


----------



## smrobs

I was not asking for critique when I started this thread and I am sorry if it seemed that way. I was just so shocked by his movement. He does seem to be very soft and responsive but it just looks so unnatural. I was just disappointed to realize that WP still looks like that. I am not putting down anyone who rides WP or that horse or rider in particular, I just saw that as an example. I did not mean to offend anyone but my mouth kinda ran away with me and I started to rant.


----------



## DarkChylde

I don't see you have done anything wrong, I think it has been a good thread. In fact, this is the very reason I like reining better, and want to get into that with my colt rather than WP. If WP wasn't like this I would get into it, if it was like the WP for the Arabian classes I can handle. But as long as overexaggerated peanut rolling is the fashion, I don't wanna do it, and it seems it will never go out of fashion. So, I am getting into reining rather than that.

We all have a right to our opinions. If you like it, fine. If like me, you don't like it, that is fine, too.


----------



## smrobs

Yeah, but in some areas, even the reiners are starting to carry their heads low and behind the vertical. I don't get what is so attractive about that. My big thing is all disciplines were originally designed to accentuate and show off the horse's NATURAL movement. Once you have to use severe training techniques or mechanical devices, it is no longer natural.


----------



## DarkChylde

I sure hope it DOESN"T catch onto reining, I DID wanna get into that with my stud colt. I was so impressed with Stacy Westfallen's video I thought I would enjoy reining, tho I am basically into dressage. If it does catch on, then I mite teach him reinin, but I doubt I will compete. I don't wanna teach my horse to look and move like that, I don't think it natural and I don't enjoy watching it. Oh well, there is always barrel racing.....:lol: (hope I get some slow barrels!)


----------



## smrobs

It is not required that your horse look like those others. Especially if you don't plan to compete. I think cross training in reining would be excellent for your horse. Not all of them move like that either. I have just noticed that in some areas, some trainers are having them carry their heads low and back and are still scoring pretty high. It may not go any farther than that but one can never tell. If you think you and your horse will enjoy it, then go for it.


----------



## farmpony84

What Smrobs said....

Even some of the older judges that have been out there for 9 billion years have started changing how they judge... Of course, it's like any other fad, You know, like the bullet proof wings and the 7 inch poof on the top of our heads back in the 80s? It takes at least a decade for the actual changes to occur... Do you know how much money I've saved in hairspray???


----------



## DarkChylde

Oh, Lawd, I remember those hairstyles. Talk about an unnatural fad! Thank goodness the chalk-a-pool-cue blue eyeshadow went out with it!:lol:


----------



## WesternPleasure27

But smorbs, don't we ALL use mechanical devices to train??
Riding by itself is unnatural.
Fencing horses in is unnatural.
Heck, farrier work and vaccinations are unnatural.

The whole "unnatural' thing really doesn't hold up in the horse world.
As I've said many times, a lot of these horses naturally have these slow legged smooth gaits. It's the ones that don't have it in their blood that look bad.
When I show my horses, I know for a fact that I'm showing off and accentuating their natural movement.


----------



## DarkChylde

I use a lead rope (no whip or carrot whatever) to train, no halters or anything at first. I use such equiptment as I need, particularly to go off property, but I don't hafta have it. But I don't do much with my horses outside of pleasure riding, and trying to get my littlest to a few shows.

If it takes a mechanical means to get a horse to do something, I doubt that would fall in the catagory of natural movement. Horses do not trot with thier heads hanging to the ground, not even out in a pasture.


----------



## WesternPleasure27

DarkChylde said:


> I use a lead rope (no whip or carrot whatever) to train, no halters or anything at first. I use such equiptment as I need, particularly to go off property, but I don't hafta have it. But I don't do much with my horses outside of pleasure riding, and trying to get my littlest to a few shows.
> 
> If it takes a mechanical means to get a horse to do something, I doubt that would fall in the catagory of natural movement. Horses do not trot with thier heads hanging to the ground, not even out in a pasture.


Well, to be technical, pleasure horses under saddle don't trot around with their heads to the ground either.
AND obviously you've never seen a WP or even HUS bred horse, because I guarantee you my pleasure horses walk about with their heads level if not below level.

And you use a halter and lead rope only to saddle break and ride? I doubt it. We use devices with our horses. A halter and lead rope is a device for heaven sakes, along with bits, bridles, saddles, etc. 
Riding a horse PERIOD is not natural, if it were, there would be no need for trainers.


----------



## DarkChylde

I just don't like the heads down. 

And I train with a roundpen and a lead rope. I do graduate to a saddle, but most of my early stuff is done bareback. But I also think there is a distinction between something to help you stay with the horse, which while he has to move with it and with you, it isn't restrictive of his natural movements, and a bridle with which to guide him, and something like a tie-down or even a martingale starts to edge into 'gadgets'. But I CAN ride my horses with no saddle or bridle, so I don't technically need ANY of it. That is how I train. Here is a pic of my hubby ridin his horse to the barn (to tack her up to take her off property) without saddle or bridle. And he is intermediate, and she (the horse) is green!









and one where he is directing me to get the other horses outta the way...










And yes, I have seen HUS and the others, I just don't care for the head being so low. Arab WP isn't like that, and I like the WP with the Arabs better. I competed WP with my arab when I was young.


----------



## WesternPleasure27

And this is me on one of the most talented HUS horses that has gone through this farm. As you can see, her head is almost level in this pic which was taken after only a few rides.










Here is my coming 3 year old at a natural walk in the round pen before he was even broke...again, level head.










My now coming 9 y/o mare with a young rider on her back...please show me where she is forcing her head down. This was before any WP training was put on her (she was just a trail horse until she was 6). I'm pretty sure she was also trotting in this pic.


----------



## DarkChylde

Nice pics, pretty horses! 

I never said you forced any horses head down, or that anyone else had either.

Since you posted the pics, do you want to know what I REALLY think?:shock::lol:

The first on is fine. That is as far soen as a head ever need go. The second one is a little too far down for my taste. As for the last one, and I haven't seen any of my horses trot around the pasture with thier head that low, or any other horses at liberty for that matter.


----------



## WesternPleasure27

DarkChylde said:


> The first on is fine. That is as far soen as a head ever need go. The second one is a little too far down for my taste. As for the last one, and I haven't seen any of my horses trot around the pasture with thier head that low, or any other horses at liberty for that matter.


Gus' headset, as well as Mel's is ALL NATURAL. Go tell THEM they carry their heads too low, not me.

Here are pedigrees for both...blood can tell you a lot about a horse.
A Gust of Impulse
NorfleetsMovinMelody

As for your last sentence, I'll have to get you a video of my mare then.


----------



## DarkChylde

You are taking offense when none has been meant, I assure you. I never said that the horses had unnatural devices used on them. My remarks about 'gadgets' or devices was meant general, not towards you. I am only stating my personal opinion, I haven't seen mine or anyone else's horses hang that low when trotting free in a pasture. You can 'encourage' a horse to do many things, such as let a predator such as a human sit of thier back for starters. But for a horse to trot with thier head that low does not seem natural to me, I haven't seen a horse do it at liberty. And I'm afraid I am not concerned with bloodlines. I don't care to see them carry it so low, and I won't teach myhorse that I am planning to go western with in some way to do it either. Just cuz it is unnatural doesn't make it or you bad, and just cuz I don't care for the fashion of it, doesn't make it bad either. My apologies if I have somehow implied that.

But please do include the vid, I would still like to see her.


----------



## smrobs

Let me clarify what I mean by "mechanical devices". The shoes and leg chains in TWH, HARSH bits or headstalls, things of that nature. The things that I have a problem with are the devices that train through pain. Also, I am a little biased. I got a bad taste in my mouth many years ago over a WP horse. I was still small and my dad was training and showing horses in the aqha curcuit. Roping, reining, working cow horse, and yes WP. He got a horse by the name of Dandy Big Step that the owners said no trainer could do anything with him. When he arrived at the barn, he was unable to lift his head above the level of his withers. He had scars across his poll and forehead where the previous "trainer" had wrapped wire around his head and attached it with cables to his hocks so that every time he would take a step, it would jerk his head down to his knees. It was "to promote proper head carriage". It took months before he was able to move naturally and comfortably. I realize that most trainers and riders DO NOT use methods like this but that experience kinda ruined my idea of WP horses. That is the kind of "devices" that I was talking about.


----------



## WesternPleasure27

DarkChylde, I'm only making these points because people constantly say it is unnatural. Yes, it's probably unnatural for YOUR horses because they aren't bred or built to perform the way a WP or HUS horse does. 
Bloodlines have a LOT to do with how these horses travel. A well bred pleasure horse doesn't need to be TAUGHT, they just do it.
You wouldn't take a Dash for Cash horse and try to make him into a fab pleasure horse, or a Peptoboomsal horse and expect him to win a H/J or Dressage show would you? Probably not.

Smrobs, again I will say, it's the horses who weren't meant to be pleasure horses that look false and need to have such devices used on them. The horse you are talking about obviously wasn't mean to be a pleasure horse if such training methods needed to be used on him. Training as severe as that disgusts me as well but you can't lump it all together. Hate the trainer, hate the previous owners, but don't hate the sport or the people who are responsibily producing high quality pleasure stock who are meant to do the job they are being asked to perform.


----------



## WesternPleasure27

(Wanted to add to the above post but wasn't able to)

I'm a firm believer in matching a horse to the discipline that is suited for them...that is precisely why me, the WP, gamer, HUS rider has a horse in dressage training. I will probably never in my life ride or show dressage. I bought Twix to be my new game horse, but she hated the job and so I need to sell her. I've found she has a much more natural aptitude for dressage and therefore found a dressage trainer and that is where she's at.


----------



## smrobs

You and I see it the same way I think, but we seem to be kinda passing each other in the hall. LOL. I agree that WP horses that are bred for it look comfortable and natural because of their breeding. I also hate the trainers who use methods like that. I have absolutely nothing against the horses or the riders as long as the horse is comfortable and happy. I just personally don't like the way that they travel. I prefer a horse with long strides and quick legs that travels smooth with his head level or slightly above his withers.


----------



## WesternPleasure27

smrobs said:


> I prefer a horse with long strides and quick legs that travels smooth with his head level or slightly above his withers.


And this to me, describes my barrel horse :wink:









I have nothing against quick legged horses but they don't belong in the pleasure ring.
It's all a matter of finding where your horse's movement and conformation places it best.


----------



## DarkChylde

WesternPleasure27 said:


> DarkChylde, I'm only making these points because people constantly say it is unnatural. Yes, it's probably unnatural for YOUR horses because they aren't bred or built to perform the way a WP or HUS horse does.
> Bloodlines have a LOT to do with how these horses travel. A well bred pleasure horse doesn't need to be TAUGHT, they just do it.
> You wouldn't take a Dash for Cash horse and try to make him into a fab pleasure horse, or a Peptoboomsal horse and expect him to win a H/J or Dressage show would you? Probably not.


 
I am sure that you hafta take some on the chin for liking what other's don't. I wanna point out, as you did and I wholeheartedly agree, that riding ITSELF is unnatural, we are predators, and horses shuddn't let us sit on thier backs, fencing, feeding grain, doing feet- all these things would fall into the catagory of unnatural, so it isn't so much of an offense. I really never meant to offend. Just stating my opinion. ANd while I am quite sure that horses hold thier heads like that without torturous devices, like Smrobs I have seen some horrible things done to MAKE a horse hang his head low. But that never meant YOU did that. 

But I have still never seen a horse trot at liberty with his/her head level or below the withers, trot now, and that IS taught, I have had hundreds of horses trot for me, including very well bred quarter horses, and until they are taught to, none of them trot with thier head that low. Walk, yes, trot, no. This isn't meant as a slam, just an observation from someone who has been in horses for 30 years now.



And I know what you mean about matching discipline to horse. I am a dressage rider, that is goin western, cuz my pretty boy just has the western 'look' to me, and he is very agile and quick on his hocks and I think he will make a great gamer or reining horse. But I wanna compete with him, but I dont wanna teach him the lowered head set. He actually carries it kinda low walking around, but he lifts it when he trots, and I don't wanna change that.


----------



## DarkChylde

WesternPleasure27 said:


> And this to me, describes my barrel horse :wink:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have nothing against quick legged horses but they don't belong in the pleasure ring.
> It's all a matter of finding where your horse's movement and conformation places it best.


She is very pretty! I love buckskins.


----------



## BuckOff41570

DarkChylde said:


> But I have still never seen a horse trot at liberty with his/her head level or below the withers, trot now, and that IS taught, I have had hundreds of horses trot for me, including very well bred quarter horses, and until they are taught to, none of them trot with thier head that low. Walk, yes, trot, no. This isn't meant as a slam, just an observation from someone who has been in horses for 30 years now.


I'm actually suprised that in your 30 years of horses you've never seen a horse trot or lope through a pasture with a level or near level topline. I've got one for ya...and he's not really bred for it.
No, this isnt in the pasture but its the same idea.




 
pedigree
Scooter Smoking Quarter Horse

He carries himself in the same manner all the time. Walk,trot,lope...or run. It is possible.

Now, personally for pleasure I prefer a horse who's neck ties in a smidge higher. They tend to not get so heavy on the forehand but are still very comfortable carrying a level topline.


----------



## DarkChylde

Well, the video wasn't him at liberty in the pasture, which I made that distinction, and I also said you can 'encourage' the head set you want with just about any horse, so it would be hard to tell if the horse hadn't been trained to do this already. But if you can catch a horse that isn't trained for it, at liberty in the pasture trotting like that, please show me. I am always up to learn something new. Just stating what I have learned and seen.

Despite my 30 years, I don't know everything nor have I seen everything, but I still haven't seen a horse at liberty in his pasture without rider or encouragement trot like that.


----------



## BuckOff41570

DarkChylde said:


> Well, the video wasn't him at liberty in the pasture, which I made that distinction, and I also said you can 'encourage' the head set you want with just about any horse, so it would be hard to tell if the horse hadn't been trained to do this already. But if you can catch a horse that isn't trained for it, at liberty in the pasture trotting like that, please show me. I am always up to learn something new. Just stating what I have learned and seen.
> 
> Despite my 30 years, I don't know everything nor have I seen everything, but I still haven't seen a horse at liberty in his pasture without rider or encouragement trot like that.


Okie dokie then... Just for you. I went and pulled him outa the paddock just so you could see a video of him doing his thing. He has NOT been trained to carry his head in any way.Heck, I think I've only lunged him once since I've had him...and that was 11 years ago.

Video of scooter at liberty - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting



Oh...and dont make fun of his chubbiness...he's a 25 year old qh who hasnt been ridden in about a year.


----------



## DarkChylde

Thank you for the trouble!

Now, he was in an arena, and I could tell he wasn't quite at liberty, he seemed he was being encouraged or driven to trot around, so that is a little different. But he really didn't have it that low (certainly not as low as the horse presented in the video of the OP) except for a few times, and it seemed that the same place in the arena(?) every time he crossed it he would lower his head down further for a few steps, almost as tho sniffin or fixin to find a roll spot. But even in that video, his head was above wither-height for about 2/3s of it. I don't think he was carring it too low. But if you REALLY catch one with him truly just in the pasture, cavorting with his buddies, and he is trotting like that (not being clicked around an arena) I would like to see it. A horse that is being 'worked' tends to lower thier heads more anyway, especially ones that have been lunged and trained before. I was quite specific about them being completely at liberty.


----------



## WesternPleasure27

Completely at liberty...hhmmm that MIGHT be a problem.
My pleasure horses are pretty sure they cannot make it from point a to b going any faster than a walk lol.

And really, I'm not offended by what you're saying. Lots of people don't like WP, but I want them to understand it before they say they don't like it and I want them to not like it for valid reasons. Saying its "unnatural" is just the easy way out.


----------



## GottaRide

I've been following this thread and support WesternPleasure27. 

Here is a photo of my horses completely at liberty running through the snow with my pleasure horse (the palomino) carrying his head low:










He has never needed a gadget to encourage his head that low. He carries it like that naturally. All throughout his training he has been encouraged to put his head and neck where ever he wants to, but several times I've had to lift it up! See for yourself where he likes to carry his head:
(These are all photos of him as a late 2 year old during his saddle training)
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/saravan/HPIM0290.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/saravan/HPIM0287.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/saravan/HPIM0293.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/saravan/HPIM0662.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/saravan/HPIM0664.jpg


----------



## BuckOff41570

DarkChylde said:


> Thank you for the trouble!
> 
> Now, he was in an arena, and I could tell he wasn't quite at liberty, he seemed he was being encouraged or driven to trot around, so that is a little different. But he really didn't have it that low (certainly not as low as the horse presented in the video of the OP) except for a few times, and it seemed that the same place in the arena(?) every time he crossed it he would lower his head down further for a few steps, almost as tho sniffin or fixin to find a roll spot. But even in that video, his head was above wither-height for about 2/3s of it. I don't think he was carring it too low. But if you REALLY catch one with him truly just in the pasture, cavorting with his buddies, and he is trotting like that (not being clicked around an arena) I would like to see it. A horse that is being 'worked' tends to lower thier heads more anyway, especially ones that have been lunged and trained before. I was quite specific about them being completely at liberty.


Well duh he was being driven around...Hell I had to chase him. He's not one of those horses that will pop his head up,bow his neck and play. That is the highest his head will go...I was chasing him around with a lunge whip for crying out loud. If anything that would be the perfect opportunit for a horse's head to come up.
The video is not to be in comparison to the origional Posters vid. Its just to show that he can move around without "gadgets" as you so quaintly put it with a level topline. And, yeah, where his head got very low...he was just checking out the ground. I honestly thought that was a given and that I wouldnt have to explain it.

And as I tried to say before. He is not trained to lunge. Its pretty obvious by the vid...he's all over the place and inconsistant with his gaits. He was just a trail horse. Knew how to go forward when you kicked him and stop when you pull back. He litterally knew nothing more. 

The bottom line...whether hes being pushed into a gait or not...its still his natural way of going. I'm not doing anything to encourage a low headset. I can stick him out in the middle of a pasture and he's going to be the same way.It just seems like your trying to nit pick in order to support your claim. Although, I can't blame you. Horse people are notoriously stubborn and opinionated...especially the older crop.


----------



## DarkChylde

GottaRide said:


> I've been following this thread and support WesternPleasure27.
> 
> Here is a photo of my horses completely at liberty running through the snow with my pleasure horse (the palomino) carrying his head low:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He has never needed a gadget to encourage his head that low. He carries it like that naturally. All throughout his training he has been encouraged to put his head and neck where ever he wants to, but several times I've had to lift it up! See for yourself where he likes to carry his head:
> (These are all photos of him as a late 2 year old during his saddle training)
> http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/saravan/HPIM0290.jpg
> http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/saravan/HPIM0287.jpg
> http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/saravan/HPIM0293.jpg
> http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/saravan/HPIM0662.jpg
> http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/saravan/HPIM0664.jpg


Everyone has taken a great deal of offense about the gadget thing, it was not to accuse every WP rider of using gadgets to get the lowered head. You don't need a gadget to train a horse to lower his head, I can do it with simple pressure-release conditioning training and use only the bridle (altho I choose not to I know how to). The one pic the horse is at liberty, and his head is above his withers, that is nice and normal. I am sure he has been encouraged in training to have the lowered head, so his pics under saddle and during training are just that, not the same as him at liberty. 

Pretty boy, btw, love a palo paint!


----------



## DarkChylde

BuckOff41570 said:


> Well duh he was being driven around...Hell I had to chase him. He's not one of those horses that will pop his head up,bow his neck and play. That is the highest his head will go...I was chasing him around with a lunge whip for crying out loud. If anything that would be the perfect opportunit for a horse's head to come up.
> The video is not to be in comparison to the origional Posters vid. Its just to show that he can move around without "gadgets" as you so quaintly put it with a level topline. And, yeah, where his head got very low...he was just checking out the ground. I honestly thought that was a given and that I wouldnt have to explain it.
> 
> And as I tried to say before. He is not trained to lunge. Its pretty obvious by the vid...he's all over the place and inconsistant with his gaits. He was just a trail horse. Knew how to go forward when you kicked him and stop when you pull back. He litterally knew nothing more.
> 
> The bottom line...whether hes being pushed into a gait or not...its still his natural way of going. I'm not doing anything to encourage a low headset. I can stick him out in the middle of a pasture and he's going to be the same way.It just seems like your trying to nit pick in order to support your claim. Although, I can't blame you. Horse people are notoriously stubborn and opinionated...especially the older crop.


Well, I am definately longer in the tooth than many on this forum, for shore. But the horses head in the video was above the wither line 3/4ths of the time, and I do alot of round penning and training, and lunging. A horse that is being driven does not trot the same way as a horse at liberty in his pasture. I have spent enuff time with horses to see a difference in the way a horse moves, and no, when you are drivin him around he will lower his head (submission) rather than have it up. But even with that it was not too far down to me.

I am not nit pickin. Read my original posts, I always made the distinction about being at liberty, free in the pasture. That is the time to see a horse's natural movements. So far I haven't seen anything that says a free horse in the pasture, like the pic provided, tho there again the head was not too far down, is what I was talking about. I said that from the start.


----------



## DarkChylde

WesternPleasure27 said:


> Completely at liberty...hhmmm that MIGHT be a problem.
> My pleasure horses are pretty sure they cannot make it from point a to b going any faster than a walk lol.
> 
> And really, I'm not offended by what you're saying. Lots of people don't like WP, but I want them to understand it before they say they don't like it and I want them to not like it for valid reasons. Saying its "unnatural" is just the easy way out.


I completely understand, I think I pointed out a few times riding itself is unnatural. But I don't wanna even encourage my horse to keep his head that low, I don't care for it. It isn't about understanding, I used to show (and win, btw) with WP when I had my arab. But they don't encourage the lowered headset, either. So this isn't ignorance or bias, but it is my opinion, that is all.


----------



## WesternPleasure27

DarkChylde said:


> I completely understand, I think I pointed out a few times riding itself is unnatural. But I don't wanna even encourage my horse to keep his head that low, I don't care for it. It isn't about understanding, I used to show (and win, btw) with WP when I had my arab. *But they don't encourage the lowered headset, either.* So this isn't ignorance or bias, but it is my opinion, that is all.


Stock breed WP and Arab WP are verrrrrrrrrrry different.
Understanding one is not quite understanding the other. It's acceptable, according to breed rules, for an Arab to travel in WP with an arched neck and high headset. Put a stock horse in a class going like that and you aren't going to do well. 

My first year showing WP was on an Arab:


----------



## BuckOff41570

DarkChylde said:


> Well, I am definately longer in the tooth than many on this forum, for shore. But the horses head in the video was above the wither line 3/4ths of the time, and I do alot of round penning and training, and lunging. A horse that is being driven does not trot the same way as a horse at liberty in his pasture. I have spent enuff time with horses to see a difference in the way a horse moves, and no, when you are drivin him around he will lower his head (submission) rather than have it up. But even with that it was not too far down to me.
> 
> I am not nit pickin. Read my original posts, I always made the distinction about being at liberty, free in the pasture. That is the time to see a horse's natural movements. So far I haven't seen anything that says a free horse in the pasture, like the pic provided, tho there again the head was not too far down, is what I was talking about. I said that from the start.


Haha...oh yeah. I'm the same way. I find it so funny that no matter how different our views are on how something should be done or not done, in the end horse people are all the same. Stubborn,hard headed,opinionated, and proud. Of course we all claim to be open minded but any new concept has to fight through the fires of hell to get our approval and acceptance.I'm thinking its a requirement to own a horse.:wink:

Which is why I'm gunna just let it go. Always good to know the opinions of others.


----------



## county

I've never been into WP or Halter but my wife is. Last week we drove to Wi. to buy a filly she liked and first thing I noticed when I drove in the yard was a stallion trotting across his paddock with his head down and nose off the ground. I've had a number of QH WP breeders tell me thats one of the things they can and do breed for.


----------



## smrobs

WP27, now that's my kind of horse.  LOL. He/she is beautiful. Buckskin or dun?


----------



## WesternPleasure27

She's a coming 17 y/o buckskin mare 
Definitely the local favorite at all the shows.
I've had more offers on her than I do fingers and toes...that's when I tell them to PLEASE step away from the horse lol


----------



## smrobs

I love that feeling when you can look someone right in the eye and say "Oh, I'm so sorry. They are not for sale." Although sometimes that is kinda hard. My brother has an 8yo Poco Lena grandson out of a Mr. San Peppy mare that he turned down 10,000 for. He has been my niece's horse since he was 2. My Dad turned down 25,000 for my 17hh buckskin when I was about 6. He was a several time AQHA grand champion roping horse, heading and heeling. I'm glad he said no, Buck was a great horse for me until I got too old and he didn't move fast enough for me anymore.


----------



## WesternPleasure27

She is worth her weight in gold...and right now she's plenty fat haha.
This summer there was a little Pee Wee rider on her little pony that wanted to do Ribbon Race but didn't have a partner so I told her I'd run with her. Her eyes got all big and she was like "NO WAY!" and then proceeded to ask me if my horse knew how to go slow lol. It was so cute.
I did end up being her partner though and bless Snickers' heart she walked that whole pattern on a loose rein without even THINKING about pulling anything. 

She has a head on her shoulders and has that instinct where she just knows when to take it easy.


----------



## I Love Lane

this mare is a HALTER horse and has NEVER had a saddle, bridle or anything else of the sorts near her. World Champion as a yearling and i tell you something for nothing - people are going to get offended if you keep saying that it is unnatural for a horse to travel this way - that is what they are bred for - you may not like it but noone is saying that you should agree with the way they move, but you need to accept that it IS natural for this style of breeding to move in a manner that you are unacustomed to. I am not trying to have a go at you so please dont take offence but WP27 and gottaride are very correct in what they have said. I dont think that anyone thinks that you are trying to say that horses will only move like that when they have been forced to by harsh training devices, but they are trying to tell you that just because you haven't seen it does not mean that it cant be true.

same old story of if a tree falls in the woods and nobody sees it.................


----------



## WesternPleasure27

Excellent post I_Love_Lane!

But, I have a feeling the next comment from DC is gonna be "but the horse is obviously being driven and acting submissively by dropping it's head" or "she's probably just smelling something on the ground"


----------



## I Love Lane

WesternPleasure27 said:


> Excellent post I_Love_Lane!
> 
> But, I have a feeling the next comment from DC is gonna be "but the horse is obviously being driven and acting submissively by dropping it's head" or "she's probably just smelling something on the ground"


just to knock that on the head before it arises - she has NEVER been longed - she was ONLY trained on the hot walker from the time she was weaned (i know this for a fact as she was in my barn until she was 3 and her new owners got her) and she had been turned out of her box about 20 mins before this pic was taken - she was just playing :lol:


----------



## sandsarita

All of the horses that I have shown in WP or HUS have all naturally carried their head level with their withers. Not b/c they were made to, but b/c that is how they are bred, that is what their conformation allows. Every day when I bring horses in from the pasture to feed, they come trotting up to the fence with their head level. It's just what's comfortable for them.

Here is a pic I took of a gelding that I took a few weeks ago. Yes, he is on a lunge line, but this is the best I have at the moment. He has been lunged less than 10 times in his life. He was playing on the lunge line, and had been bucking and acting like a fool. He has never had draw reins, martingale, any type of tie down or side reins on him. This is where his head is naturally, and where he likes it. Oh, and his breeding is for WP, Barpasser's Image.


----------



## Junebug

Peanut Rollers are a thing of the past!Western Pleasure is speeding up and the horses head has to be level with the withers not below or above withers!(its a Rule now in the AQHA)


----------



## WesternPleasure27

Junebug said:


> Peanut Rollers are a thing of the past!Western Pleasure is speeding up and the horses head has to be level with the withers not below or above withers!(its a Rule now in the AQHA)


I believe the rule is the ears can't be more than 2 inches below the withers.
If the head has to be level, than the horse in your display pic is traveling incorrectly.


----------



## charliBum

All i can say is, ewwww, how can that kind of going be pefured


----------



## I Love Lane

i dont like looking at horses with their heads stuck up in the air, mouths yanging on the bit and racing a clock to get a clean run in show jumping but you dont see me jumping on the english threrads bad mouthing the way they travel now do we:evil:

ps - the rule is:

the tip of the ears must not consistantly be lower then 2 inches below the point of the whither. Constant low head carriage will result in disqualification.


----------



## charliBum

i dont really showjump, i do round the ring jumping, english riding goes deeper than just showjumping, and showjumping isnt all about beating the clock, you have to have rythm, and the timing only comes into play if you make the whole course clear, no rails, then a select few jumps are taken at speed, and all i was saying by that, is that they look stiff, and not at all engaged, isnt that what you would want, a horse that is using its back end well, pushing from the back and not pulling from the front?


----------



## farmpony84

...to each his own....

I rode hunt for years and switched to western pleasure. I love it. I'm not crazy about the peanut rollers (they someday will be a day of the past) there are still some out there...

I like the newer "forward motion" lope. It's funny now because when I ride my old hunt pony I feel like his head is in my lap (and it's really not that high)... He has always moved a bit on the forehand but it's ok in the local and lower level hunt rings... He was always pinning top of the class... now I think... oh gosh, he needs collection and headset and blah... teehee... (but i still love him)

to each his own...


----------



## I Love Lane

my point was that exactly, if you have read the entire thread you will see that i have already said that he needs to engage in the back end more but that i felt that this was more rider error than a poorly trained horse. - you need to say why you dont like the perticular horse in question, not just say that you don't. It is bound to be offensive to people that ride western generalizing the whole sport into one sentence. I am not attacking you or your style of riding so please dont take offense. And thankyou, i am quite familiar with the fact that english is not only jumping, I was just using that as a example of what i dont like without just saying "ewwww" :?


----------



## StarfireSparrow

One problem is that even if the rules have changed and those horses are no longer winning, there are still people out there who LIKE that and there are trainers that don't know any other way to train. I am not by any means condoning it, but the point is that there are going to continue to be horses out there that are going to travel that way for a long while. It is the same with the over muscled halter horses that have feet so small they cannot be ridden without having hoof problems. There are plain and simple people who like it. It is not until those horses do not place in shows ever and people are penalized for doing it that the fad will die totally. For pete's sake, the halter class spent almost 30 years perpetuating a genetic disorder before any one did anything drastic about it. Yes, it is ugly to see a horse going around with his head between his knees and with an expression that he has been degraded, but you have to give the system time to purge itself and three or four years is not quite long enough.


----------



## Junebug

WesternPleasure27 said:


> I believe the rule is the ears can't be more than 2 inches below the withers.
> If the head has to be level, than the horse in your display pic is traveling incorrectly.


 No the rile say AT the withers, i Show AQHA


----------



## Spastic_Dove

The poll is supposed to be at the withers ideally, but if the horses head is dropped 2'' or lower below the withers its DQ or whatever. Im pretty sure.


----------



## XxXequinegrlXxX

all i have to say is i absolutley hate the the peanut rollers... no one will change my mind. its unhealthy, definitely not natural.. and what will it hurt if you let your horse move out?? i mean come on


----------



## I Love Lane

I Love Lane said:


> ps - the rule is:
> 
> the tip of the ears must not consistantly be lower then 2 inches below the point of the whither. Constant low head carriage will result in disqualification.





Junebug said:


> No the rile say AT the withers, i Show AQHA


please read the rule above Junebug - this is how it reads in the AQHA rule book and the APHA rule book as during the time when they were trying to get rid of the extreme low head carriage a special sub committee of AQHA, APHA and the Appaloosa of America directors came together to create the new rule so that it would be banned across the western disciplines at the same time to try to force people to stop doing it. :lol:


----------



## farmpony84

I'm searching AQHA for the exact rule. I found this so far:

*(11)​*​​​​Faults, which will be cause for disqualification, except
in novice amateur or novice youth classes, which shall be faults
scored according to severity:​
*(A)​*​​​​Head carried too low (tip of ear below withers _consistently_)​
*(B)​*​​​​Over flexing or straining neck in head carriage so​
the nose is carried behind the vertical _consistently_.


----------



## farmpony84

The rules are pretty much the same in all AQHA disciplines: 

*(1)​*​​​​Head carried too low (such that poll is below the withers
consistently)​
*(2)​*​​​​Overflexing or straining neck in head carriage so the
nose is carried behind the vertical consistently​


----------



## DarkChylde

WesternPleasure27 said:


> Excellent post I_Love_Lane!
> 
> But, I have a feeling the next comment from DC is gonna be "but the horse is obviously being driven and acting submissively by dropping it's head" or "she's probably just smelling something on the ground"


Umm, no I wasn't.:?


----------



## cowgirlfitzy

Wow heated debate HAHA! I just wanted to add one thing about the video. i agree with EVERYONE that the horse does need to be pushed a little more. As far as the headset thing, this horse appears to be at home, not a show and is probably really relaxed. Most horses won't carry their head low unless they are relaxed and breed too unless someone scared them into it which doesn't appear to be the case with this horse. That horses head will probably go up a little bit at a show and no one would say anything about it. My horse isn't even breed for pleasure he carries his head level as long as he is relaxed. I have personally seen him running around the pasture dragging his head on the ground, but I would never ask him do that under saddle. even on trail rides where i don't ever ask for head set or anything he carries his head level(on his own). WP does have a bad rep in the past but they are trying to improve it so leave em alone! haha! Oh and i agree with WesternPleasure27 that everything and I personally would rather see a horse like that then with one throwing their head gapping their mouth trying to get away from the bit, won't stop when you ask or go when you ask. At least this horse is well trained.


----------



## XxXequinegrlXxX

WesternPleasure all i did was state my opinion if you don't like it i don't care and go ahead and make one about how you hate strung out english horses.. i'm still not going to care... so go ahead and write all you want ... not gunna change my opinion


----------



## farmpony84

Please remember to review the conscientious ettiquette policy when posting. (pasted below for ease of viewing) 

*"Conscientious Etiquette Policy

The Horse Forum was created so that people can discuss horses in a friendly, fun, helpful environment. While the Horse Forum is open to the public, we reserve the right to restrict access to those who undermine our efforts to preserve the character of the community.

Please exercise what we call conscientious etiquette when you post. This means that you keep the objective of preserving the forum's friendly, fun, helpful environment in the forefront of your mind as you write your message.

If your post is nasty, condescending, rude, etc., regardless of how subtle, and whether shrouded in the form of opinion or otherwise, it is subject to be removed and your access to the Horse Forum may be restricted.

This applies to the Critique forum as well. People come here because they are passionate about their horses. Naturally, a biting critique about an animal a person is passionate about can be very hurtful. While a request for critique implicitly invites criticism, the sensitive nature of such topics is all the more reason to post conscientiously, keeping the other person's feelings in mind.

Our interest in preserving the nature of the community trumps our interest in allowing everyone to share their opinion here. If you can't share your opinion in such a way so as to preserve the friendly, fun, helpful nature of the community, don't.

Please exercise conscientious etiquette when you post. Please use the alert button to notify the Horse Forum Staff when you read something by somebody who clearly hasn't.

If you have any questions, please contact a moderator or Administrator.

Thank you,
Administrator"*


----------



## DarkChylde

While I might not be the fan of the lower headset, I DO agree that many english horses' heads are held in unnatural ways, I think one of the greatest challenges in dressage is a soft headset but still properly broken at the poll without fighting and pulling, it is not an easy thing to do. But I WILL say that the proper dressage headset IS something I see horses do, tho not for LOOOOOONG periods of time like is expected in dressage, while playing around with their buddies. Stallions in particular hold thier heads like that when showin off for the ladies. Plus it is necessary for full collection, but that is off topic so I won't digress. (For a change.:wink


----------



## cowgirlfitzy

Yea alot more of your dressage horse are built more for a higher headset as well. Not all all horses can travel collected with their heads down low. My horse for example is very heavy on the forehand and is built down hill and I struggle alot with that. I use alot of dressage training to train him for western pleasure, to try to get him to lift the front and drive from behind. I won't even let canter like that not even for one stride. 

The horse is not collected in the first video and I would consider his walk to be a break in gait. There is too much hesitation. His trot isn't correct neither. He just needs to be engaged more and they used a O ring snaffle on him that would help lift his shoulders more. I do like the horse tho. He has alot of potential with the right rider.

One thing I might add too, is that is more harder to teach a horse to pick his head up off the ground once they have been trained to lower it.

To teach your horse to lower his head also helps with nervous or spooky horses. Something about lowering their head makes them relaxed. I've done that with my horse out on the trail and he gets over what was making him nervous almost instantly.


----------



## smrobs

Wow, I had no idea that this thread was still going. o,o I really had no intention of starting such a heated debate, when I started this thread, I kinda had a burr in my saddle blanket and I don't even remember now what it was about. LOL. I guess everyone does have different opinions on what is "natural" and comfortable for the horse. Me personally, I like for my horse to carry their head with the withers level between the eyes and the tip of the ears, just however the horse is most comfortable. I don't really try to create a headset unless they carry their head too high. Here is a pic of my paint that was Zippo Pine Bar bred with some Easy Jet thrown in. He would have made an excellent WP horse if I had worked on it but I just used him for ranch work (plus he was only about 15 hh tall, too short for most WP competition). 

In this picture, I was trotting circles on him (he only had about 30 days training)









Here his headset is a little lower because he was pulling against the tractor tire. After he progressed in his training a little more and relaxed under saddle, he carried his head like this all the time. This is the level that I love, anything else is either too high or too low for my taste.


----------



## Junebug

I Love Lane said:


> please read the rule above Junebug - this is how it reads in the AQHA rule book and the APHA rule book as during the time when they were trying to get rid of the extreme low head carriage a special sub committee of AQHA, APHA and the Appaloosa of America directors came together to create the new rule so that it would be banned across the western disciplines at the same time to try to force people to stop doing it. :lol:


 Okay thank you


----------



## cowgirlfitzy

He is really pretty smrobs! I like him!


----------



## smrobs

Thank you, I kinda wish that I hadn't sold him but if I had kept him, I would never have gotten my bay Mustang. Pretty good trade, I think.


----------



## DarkChylde

I think his headset was perfect, that seemed comfortable (to the horse) and natural, and I like that. Pretty horse, but the bay in your avatar (is that the one?) is awful pretty too, but I LOVE a paint, just can't help meself...


----------



## smrobs

He was a pretty nice horse. The only bad thing about him is every once in a great while, he would wait until you were relaxed and then start bucking. And man, could he buck. I don't know how many times I ended up with bruised thighs from the swells of my saddle. The guy who owns him now never has a problem though..........maybe he just didn't like me. LOL. The bay in my avatar is my 7yo mustang Koda. Spoiled brat that he is, he is still a big sweetie.


----------



## RedHawk

Haven't read through all the posts, just thought I'd add that my TB does this out on trails, and i swear he could *literally* roll a peanut along the ground! He does have a TBs long neck though. He's such a dork.:lol:


----------



## Remali

For the life of me I cannot figure out why judges even place "peanut rollers". And, as with so many other breeds that show their horses in an unnatural frame, until the judges start judging correctly, it will just continue unfortunately (how some Arabians are shown come to mind here...).


----------



## iridehorses

I mare I had last year would carry her head nice and level unless we were on the trails. If she was the lead horse she would ride along a good deal of the time with her head nearly touching the ground like a hound dog. She was taking in all the smells of the trail! Truthfully it was really annoying.


----------



## Lucara

They look like they have no life or personality in them. Personally those "peanut rollers", are just boring looking and an extreme turn off.


----------



## farmpony84

I have a WP horse, he's not a "peanut roller" but I can tell you he has tons and tons of personality. The thing is, he knows the difference between work and play and I would assume anyone would expect that out of their show horse...


----------



## DarkChylde

I hope I don't reoffend all over again, but there is a bad flip side to that, and that is tryin to make a horse act MORE animated than normal. For instance, I had freinds with Saddlebreds that showed them, and they would use a trash bag on a stick (without the horse being desentized to the trash bag, mind you) and when the horse would whiten his eye and tense up his muscles (the beginnings of the flight response), they called that 'animated.'

Personally, I called it 'scared.'

So while tryin to make a horse seem more mellow or whatever mite hide some of the horse's REAL 'horsenality' (horsie personality), to over do it to make them seem more animated I also take issue with.

I have actually seen people do the dumbest things to 'wind' thier horses up for something.....


----------



## Lucara

I don't know, I like a horse with a spring in its step, an alert look and that actually seems to be into what its doing. The horse in the video looks ready to plop over and fall asleep.


----------



## farmpony84

...I think he does have spring to his step. He looks to be spur broke which would explain the SLOW walk. If you watch the rider he's tapping the horse w/ a spur for each step, he's actually telling the horse how slow to walk. 

His ears are forward and kind of moving around because he's listening to his rider... I don't know... I'm not crazy about the lope on this horse but I think he's cute... to each his own....


----------



## cowgirlfitzy

I agree with farmpony. 

I think this horse would be amazing with a different rider tho. I wish I had the money to buy him.


----------



## I Love Lane

I Love Lane said:


> I like him. I will happily stand here and take what anyone has to say about that on the chin cause i think that he has a lot of potential. He DOES need to drive a bit more from his hind end and he is almost walking in the front end at the jog a fair amount of the time but not to insult the rider cause he obviously can ride, it is all things that are rider error and he could VERY easily be moved into the top ranks of the pleasure arena with the right passenger on board.


Cowgirlfitzy - i too would be happy to have him in my barn. Super pretty if you ask me....... but then what do i know :lol:

Farmpony - i think you are correct baout him being spur broke. All my horses are trained to spur stop and for the show pen i think it is a great way to go - but just to point out again what i said above, i dont think he is walking slow cause he is spur broke - mine dont walk that slow unless i tell them to..... back to rider error i believe :lol:


----------



## Whipple

I realize this is an old topic, but I just wanted to post a few pics. These are three horses chilling out in the paddocks at CARD. They are just very calm, low headed horses. We also have a few horses which are the opposite and constantly have their heads up unless eating. I think it has alot to do with breeding. But I can see two horses walking with low heads, and if one just isn't loving it, you can tell. Thats when it looks wrong.
(I did post a new post previous to this, and after reading every post in this thread my opinion has changed slightly. Thank you everyone)
























Ok, Misty is probably in the middle of eating here, but dont let that fool you. She used to be part of a childrens pony ride/nose to tail pony. She always has her head low and barely gets it up enough to get water in her stall.


----------



## Jane Honda

Holy crap, I couldn't bring myself to watch the rest of the video's after seeing the first one.



How much fun would it actually be to ride a horse like that? How much fun would it be to ride a horse someone else trained just so you could jump on and 'win' a class?

I don't think it would be that much of a pleasure to ride a horse that was that sluggish and stale.

He was very beautiful, and would look great if he was allowed to move like a horse.


----------



## BuckOff41570

Jane Honda said:


> Holy crap, I couldn't bring myself to watch the rest of the video's after seeing the first one.
> 
> 
> 
> How much fun would it actually be to ride a horse like that? How much fun would it be to ride a horse someone else trained just so you could jump on and 'win' a class?
> 
> I don't think it would be that much of a pleasure to ride a horse that was that sluggish and stale.
> 
> He was very beautiful, and would look great if he was allowed to move like a horse.


The bashing fest is over. Let it die already.


----------



## Jane Honda

BuckOff41570 said:


> The bashing fest is over. Let it die already.



Did I hit a little too close to home? 



Why didn't you quote everyone else that posted up recently too?


----------



## farmpony84

This thread has run it's course.


----------

