# Tentatively considering a 2-3 year breeding plan



## Britt (Apr 15, 2008)

I've been considering starting to save up the money to breed for a future show horse in two or three years.

I want to show in the Walking Horse world and two of my three Walkers don't gait, but one of them does (double registered TWHBEA and RHBAA and is a good representation of the breed). I've been toying with the idea of breeding her in a few years. She's Midnight Mack K bred both top and bottom, so I'd like to cross her with a more 'this day and age' stallion instead of keeping to her 'older' bloodlines.

She's been used as a broodmare in her younger years and is completely kid-broke. She's proven herself in what I look for (kid-safe, a good, steady-minded trail horse, sane, sound and safe on the road, nice gaits and good conformation). 

The only real faults I've been given as far as her conformation goes is her neck ties in a little low and she toes out on her fronts, but she's never passed that onto her foals. So, in a stallion, I'd definitely be looking for a nice head and neck and clean, straight legs. I also think I'd like a little more height (this mare is 14.3 hands tall) and more substance to the bone.

The only real 'negative factor' is her age. She's eighteen years old, but I have spoken with her breeder and he said that as long as I took the proper precautions with her (vet care, emergency vet funds, etc...), he see's no reason that she couldn't be bred in her early twenties. He used to, before he retired, breed his horses well into their twenties.

I believe that considering this on a two or three year plan is quite responsible, as I'm not rushing into anything here and I know exactly what I want in a future foal, so I can stallion shop for the next two or three years while saving up the money. Another reason for doing it on a three-year plan is so that I will have my truck mostly all paid off by then and won't have to worry about a truck payment.  My main riding mare, Gypsie, should also be retired to just slow, short rides by then, so I'll have time to devote to raising another foal.

And, who knows, by the time two or three years roll around, I may very well decide to not breed and just buy a weanling or two year old to bring along...


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

Do you have pictures of your mare?

Personally, I'd just go with something already on the ground (even if it's a couple of years out). You have some pretty specific requests, and breeding is such a huge gamble.


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## Britt (Apr 15, 2008)

I'm sorry, but I fail to see how searching for a stallion with a nice head and neck, clean legs, a little taller than 14.3 hands and a bit bigger built is getting into the 'highly specific' category. Not meaning to come off as iffy or anything, but that strikes me as an odd comment when many others who breed often search for many more qualities than just those, lol. 

I have some pictures of my mare, but not any really great ones at the moment. She's being leased to a summer camp program right now and I go see her on my off days, but since she's being leased I haven't taken the time to go and clean her up really well and get good conformation pictures of her. I'll see if I can find some older pics from earlier this year...


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

I would think that even in a perfectly healthy mare who is not a maiden, breeding her at 20-21 years old and having her go through the stress of foaling at 21,22, or even early 23 (depending on when she takes), is a big risk. She may not even be able to conceive. She hasn't foaled in years. If she had popped foals every year until now and you wanted to breed her at 19 for a foal at 20, maybe...but she hasn't. She is a pleasure horse. Just because a breeder who breeds horses for a living does it, doesn't mean it is a good idea. He has to make money. Do you really want to put your mare through that and possibly lose her for a foal that might possibly suit your needs?


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

I guess I didn't make myself clear.

Your "requirements" for the foal, not for a stallion. You want to breed for a "show horse". That leaves a lot open to interpretation. What level would you be planning on showing? What is your own skill level? What would be your goals within the "Walking Horse World"? You can breed even the highest quality mare and stallion and not get something show quality. It's a huge gamble.

Plus, you'd be a solid three to four years away from the show ring, /after/ the two or three year "Breeding plan". Is that how long you want to wait?


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I agree. Buying something on the ground, especially during a time when there are just too many horses as is, is the better option. You can then search for the colt with the most potential instead of gambling with the possibility of getting a foal that isn't what you want.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

I agree with what has been said. If you want to guarantee a nice foal, go buy one


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## Britt (Apr 15, 2008)

Endiku said:


> I would think that even in a perfectly healthy mare who is not a maiden, breeding her at 20-21 years old and having her go through the stress of foaling at 21,22, or even early 23 (depending on when she takes), is a big risk. She may not even be able to conceive. She hasn't foaled in years. If she had popped foals every year until now and you wanted to breed her at 19 for a foal at 20, maybe...but she hasn't. She is a pleasure horse. Just because a breeder who breeds horses for a living does it, doesn't mean it is a good idea. He has to make money. Do you really want to put your mare through that and possibly lose her for a foal that might possibly suit your needs?


No, I don't. Like I said in my original post, it's just an idea I've been playing with. 



Zexious said:


> I guess I didn't make myself clear.
> 
> Your "requirements" for the foal, not for a stallion. You want to breed for a "show horse". That leaves a lot open to interpretation. What level would you be planning on showing? What is your own skill level? What would be your goals within the "Walking Horse World"? You can breed even the highest quality mare and stallion and not get something show quality. It's a huge gamble.
> 
> Plus, you'd be a solid three to four years away from the show ring, /after/ the two or three year "Breeding plan". Is that how long you want to wait?


Thanks for clearing up what you meant.  I don't want to immediately jump in a do major shows. I want to start at a local level, like in the local saddle club and over the years work my way up to higher levels. Ideally, I just want to show locally, unless I fall in love with it and decide to go higher. My own skill level, I'm a trail rider at the moment, but I'm an advanced-intermediate rider. I don't mind waiting, as with our local saddle club I'd be able to show in the classes such as halter, in-hand, etc... 



SorrelHorse said:


> I agree. Buying something on the ground, especially during a time when there are just too many horses as is, is the better option. You can then search for the colt with the most potential instead of gambling with the possibility of getting a foal that isn't what you want.





.Delete. said:


> I agree with what has been said. If you want to guarantee a nice foal, go buy one


I have thought of that option, as I would like to actually buy a horse for a change (instead of getting them given to me, etc...)... that way I could pick out what I wanted, etc... so buying is still an option, but I'm still not ruling out breeding for my own just yet. I have some years to think on it and sleep on it.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Britt said:


> I also think I'd like a little more height (this mare is 14.3 hands tall) and more substance to the bone.
> 
> The only real 'negative factor' is her age. She's eighteen years old


She's older, hasn't foaled in years, you are looking for a taller heavier boned baby and waiting 2 or three more years puts her even older. I wouldn't chance it on a mare I loved and cared about. Even if you were ready to breed now I'd say go buy.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

My mare was 15 when I bred her, and foaled this year at 16, and I was still worried. My bo's best brood mare is in foal with what is likely her last baby, she's 21, but looks 12, and she is under strict supervision and vet care.

In short, your mares age is a big factor. If you were breeding her now it would be a different story, but you are talking about years from now. For me it would be a no, just based on the age.

conformation. Toes out and neck tying in too low can be deal breakers in a show horse, and she has a good chance of passing them on. My bo bred 4 mares this year, and they all have stellar pedigrees, incredible conformation and great dispositions, as well as being proven under saddle and flashy movers. It was a big debate whether she would breed any of them at all, despite all they had going for them.

just being realistic, your mare(while she sounds like a lovely saddle horse) has less than ideal conformation, an ok pedigree, and her age makes breeding her a big risk. I would save the money you were thinking of using to breed her and go buy the foal you want. You can then pick the pedigree, color, gender and temperament, and you don't have to worry about the foal toeing out, or your mare suffering complications.


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## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

I don't know about you, but I change my mind like I change my underwear. Who's to say in 3 years, plus gestation time, plus 2-4 years to break her... Who's to say you'll be interested in walking horse shows? Who's to say your baby will be show quality? 

It's going to be a lot cheaper, less risky and easier to buy a horse who already on the ground and demonstrating promise as a show horse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I have a feeling that any foal you bred from your mare would be less than perfect regardless of how good the stallion was - it takes several generations of breeding to get to where I think you want to be which would probably mean it would be your mares grand daughter or possibly grt grand daughter (if you even got a filly from the first breedings) that would be your ideal show horse
Probably easier/cheaper to save the stud fees and go out and buy a really nice youngster


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## Britt (Apr 15, 2008)

Thanks for the comments, lol. 

As I stated before, she has been used as a broodmare in the past and was bred to a stallion with not the greatest confo, yet the resulting foals had good conformaton and looked very nice. I personally think her bloodlines are great, if only because she has the bloodlines that I like in a Walker. I only want to cross her with a more present day bloodline because she is linebred and I don't want to introduce bloodlines the same as or very close to her own so closely in a foal.

 There's no telling whether or not I'll still even want to breed her this time two or three years from now.  That's why I put 'tentatively' in the headline.

Also, there's no such thing as a perfect horse. Any horse ever, none of them are perfect and there's no way to breed for the absolutely perfect horse. You can be close, but not ever actually perfect. Jaydee, you're talking about big time showing. I'm not. I'm talking about saddle club showing with the possibility of advancing later on if it's something I feel like doing. If not, the foal would either be sold as a 'small-time show horse' or kept and trained as a personal trail mount or leased out.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Britt said:


> Thanks for the comments, lol.
> 
> As I stated before, she has been used as a broodmare in the past and was bred to a stallion with not the greatest confo, yet the resulting foals had good conformaton and looked very nice. I personally think her bloodlines are great, if only because she has the bloodlines that I like in a Walker. I only want to cross her with a more present day bloodline because she is linebred and I don't want to introduce bloodlines the same as or very close to her own so closely in a foal.
> 
> ...


Precisely why people are telling you she is too old to risk having a foal. Being a previous brood mare doesn't make her chances of giving birth safely any higher. Being a previous broodmare could actually put her at higher risk for problems. 

The general agreement from everyone is don't breed her. Not now, or 3 years from now. It's too risky.


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## Britt (Apr 15, 2008)

I find that interesting, because all the vet's I have spoken to (my own vet plus two others who are large animal/equine vets) have said that if the mare has foaled before, it's not as risky to breed when they are older because their bodies already know what to do. I asked that last year to the vets and all three of them told me the same thing. I think, in that case, I'd be more inclined to believe the vets, since all three said the exact same thing... that is it safer to breed an older mare who has been bred before than one who hasn't been bred at all.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Britt said:


> I find that interesting, because all the vet's I have spoken to (my own vet plus two others who are large animal/equine vets) have said that if the mare has foaled before, it's not as risky to breed when they are older because their bodies already know what to do. I asked that last year to the vets and all three of them told me the same thing. I think, in that case, I'd be more inclined to believe the vets, since all three said the exact same thing... that is it safer to breed an older mare who has been bred before than one who hasn't been bred at all.


This CAN be true. However you don't know how her pervious foaling experiences went for her. They could have done damage, they could have been difficult births. There are so many factors that go into it


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## MyBoySi (Dec 1, 2011)

If you have the vets ok, are determined to breed her and are being responsible about it then breed her. 

All in all she's your horse and your going to do what you want with her. It sounds as though you are weighing the pros and cons of breeding her and are willing to take the obviouse risks into consideration.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

We tried to breed our old mare when she was in her early twenties (the mare has since passed away at age 34). This mare had had a number of nice foals, had really nice bloodlines (sire won the trotting triple crown) she had produced a few money earners and all of her foals were nice temperament and easy to work around. She was a stout mare, built like a brick outhouse. Her only issue was a colic she had that resolved when she refluxed during Nasogastric tubing (my non-equine brother thought the doctor was a miracle worker, the doctor was convinced the horse was going to die) and arthritis. We bred her, she took and ended up with twins. They pinched one of the twins and the mare reabsorbed the other when we ultra sounded a few weeks later. We did not rebreed. With older mares, the issue is not some much getting them pregnant but keeping them pregnant and keeping them in good condition during the pregnancy. Having a foal takes a lot out of a mare, more so in the nursing stages of the foals development. 

Britt, I think you should when ready buy a yearling or two year old on the ground. That way you get "up to date" lines. I also know that you did not ultrasound for twins after your mare was bred previously. Which with an older mare I think is basically required. The stress of a pregnancy is enough but the stress of carrying twins could really push a mare over the edge. If you decide to breed, really consider if your mare is a "easy keeper" the harder she is to keep weight on in an open (non pregnant state) the harder it will be to keep weight on her pregnant.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

^This. (EDIT-"this" to My, not to rookie. We posted at the same time xD) You can get all the opinions in the world, but ultimately you're going to do whatever you want to do with your horse and your money. It's just of my opinion (and apparently everyone else's) that you'll get more bang for your buck if you pick out something on the ground.


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## EliRose (Aug 12, 2012)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you have a twenty year old mare slip a foal this year? And you didn't want to risk breeding that mare again because of her age?


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## Britt (Apr 15, 2008)

There are other factors with the 20 y/o mare that made me hesitant to rebreed her, though I would still love a foal from her. 

I'm actually leaning towards buying, I think... as I really, really want a foal by this particular stud...

Also, I just revieced the payment booklet for my truck and as far as that goes, I'm not gonna have any or much extra money to spare for the next three years, so yeah, thinking of just buying in three or four years...


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Britt if you are going to breed that mare do it next year. Every year she is barren increases the chance she will not conceive. At her age if she is healthy and with good nutrition she should have no problems. I have mares in their late teens and early 20's that I will still breed.
Glad you are learning more about breeding but some of the other members have brought up very good points. 
IMO if you cannot breed that mare in the next year or two save your money and buy a younger mare the type you want to show. Show her THEN decide if you want to breed. 
Good luck with whatever you decide. Shalom


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