# Should I pay my trainer?



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

most training sold by the month (30 days-) usually isn't actually 30 training sessions. rather it is the horse is at their facility for 30 days and gets training rides a set number of times per week. it might BE daily, if that is stated, or more likely 3 days a week or ? something arranged with owner. 

ask her how many rides she gives clients horses who reside at her facility. 

I would insist, in any case, that she make up for time not spennt on your mare due to the holidays.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I wrote a response on your other post that was completely deleted with no warning before I clicked sense so I lost the post....more then a little frustrating.

I agree that what your trainer was expecting is completely standard and unfortunately if you were expecting otherwise it's something that should have been spelled out beforehand in a contract, you can't just make up rules afterwards and again, her expectations are standard practice.

I would never consider not paying proper in all but the most extreme circumstances, it makes you into the bad guy and burns bridges.

I would sit down and talk to her about this, she may be willing to work with you if you approach it right.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Well, what do you expect? 

If she came 30 times then all she would be getting would be just over $13 a time, not enough to cover her gas with a 200mile round drive. Even just doing 18 days that is only $22 a time.

I had a set price for horses coming in to me. Rarely did I ever go out to train with horses like yours if I did then travel, gas and my time were charged. Horses were worked six days a week. 

Where this trainer was wrong is not stating how many times they would come out. Work it out - time travelling 3 hours at $25 per hour = $75 time at facility working horse has to be worth another $25 so that would be $100 a time. 

I would have worked on the loading, got the horse to my facility and worked it from there. As with most things in life, you get what you pay for.

Pay her for the remaining time, get the horse in the trailer and take her to someone closer where you can go see how they are working with the horse.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Moderator's note:
@Yogiwick : I am sorry that happened to you. what occured was that the OP had 2 identical threads started. I saw this , checked that NEITHER had any responses posted to it, and went through the process of reporting the duplicate, and then choosing one to remove. in the several minutes of doing this, you must have actually hit the 'post' button, (which I could not see your post actually come up when I was in the process of deleting that thread), so you posted to a thread that was in the process of being removed.
in the 5 years that I have been moderating, this is the first time this has occured.


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

WalkingAround, the only time I've seen something like this happen the trainer ended up getting paid anyway. You don't say what your trainer has been working on for the days that she has been there. I only know of one trainer here that will travel to a horse to work with it and he charges $50 to $75, plus mileage per visit. And I've seen a trainer come out to the client's house and spend the afternoon working with the horse to load then hauling her back to his place for training. IMO that was the more professional way to go about it.

It seems to me that the most you can do is tell her you misunderstood. You thought that you'd get 30 days of training. But that's really not standard. Even if a horse is at the trainers facility she may not get actual riding every single day. Perhaps this trainer will work with you a little and give you a few extra days. But, I agree that the terms of the agreement should have been spelled out in writing more clearly.


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## WalkingAround (Nov 27, 2016)

I've never hired a trainer, I always do it myself, but due to not having time bc I work 2 jobs aND go to school. This is my last semester and I plan to move my horse closer to me. She's ab 45 mins away now. And I dont think anything should be left for assumption when someone says 30 days. It should have been made clear if that is not what she meant. How else is someone supposed to take "I'll do the training for 30 days"? I would never not pay her, I just meant in terms of days work. And though she is 100 miles from my horse, she has been staying with a friend for free 15 miles from her. And had price for milage been an issue, I would have gladly given her more. That was her contract price. I feel I'm getting the short end of the stick because she did not care to share that 30 days didn't actually mean 30 days. Her money made va gas money spent isn't my problem, bc like I stated, I a would have gladly paid more. And if I actually had time to work on her loading problem... I wouldn't need a trainer. I also do not see how she is going to fix that and her bucking issues is in 4 days... 
I'm frustrated bc what I was explained in terms of price, days of training and what that consists of, I feel, doesn't match the quality of what I'm receiving. Now had it been said that she could improve her usdues, but to clear them would take more than 30, and such.. I wouldn't be upset. I told her what I understood from our agreement vs what I'm getting, and how I felt it should have been clearly stated before. She did not respond. Am I wrong for my frustrations?


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## WalkingAround (Nov 27, 2016)

Also, I live in a remote place regardless of who I take her too its going to be at lead 80-100 mIles away. I've paid her 200. I was speaking specifically about with hiding the other 200 until our agreement is met, agreement least part of it. She rides without bucking, or loads or does 30 whole days.. only bc she don't specify that agreement and knew I had no knowledge of how trainers generally operate. I'm in MS and people usually do everything a little different here than most places, from what I've seen anyhow.


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

Have any of her issues been resolved?


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## WalkingAround (Nov 27, 2016)

I haven't ridden her, neither has the trainer. That begins next week, her last week. However I can now touch her front leg that she hates me to mess with, that was done in the first 2 days. And she said she messed with her back legs, trying to fix the kicking, but I haven't tried her on that yet. But I had high hopes seeing that progress in 2 days, but I'm worried as the end approaches. I wanted the bucking to stop. It's not hard or violent, she started doing it several months back and she'll buck 5-7 different times during the first 15 mins or so of riding and she's done. I just don't want her doing that.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Standard training is for 30 days, 1 month, at a time. It is not for 30 rides, and for sure, not for $400 when the trainer has to travel 200 miles/day round trip. If you decide to hold her pay, be prepared to never have another trainer agree to take your horse because you will get a really bad rap on this one. And fyi, the cheapest trainer I have ever found around here is $600/mo, most are $1000 and up. So, I'd be paying very quickly and recognizing what a bargain I'd gotten and I'd be in attendance as much of those 4 days as I could be, so I could see exactly what has been done, what is being done and how much still needs to be done at the end of the 4 days.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

WalkingAround said:


> I haven't ridden her, neither has the trainer. That begins next week, her last week. However I can now touch her front leg that she hates me to mess with, that was done in the first 2 days. And she said she messed with her back legs, trying to fix the kicking, but I haven't tried her on that yet. But I had high hopes seeing that progress in 2 days, but I'm worried as the end approaches. I wanted the bucking to stop. It's not hard or violent, she started doing it several months back and she'll buck 5-7 different times during the first 15 mins or so of riding and she's done. I just don't want her doing that.


Well, I apologize if this sounds blunt....but if you don't want the horse to do that, then you need to figure out what signals the horse gives, and then stop it before it happens. 
A trainer riding the horse is not going to fix it, because the chances are, she is going to do just that...then, the horse is still going to do it with YOU!


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## Bright Stride Equine (Oct 20, 2016)

tinyliny said:


> most training sold by the month (30 days-) usually isn't actually 30 training sessions. rather it is the horse is at their facility for 30 days and gets training rides a set number of times per week. it might BE daily, if that is stated, or more likely 3 days a week or ? something arranged with owner.
> 
> ask her how many rides she gives clients horses who reside at her facility.
> 
> I would insist, in any case, that she make up for time not spennt on your mare due to the holidays.



Agree with this. It would be nice if she would give you a couple extra days because of the holiday. How is your horse coming along? Will you be happy with where she's at after the 30 days? If the trainer has done good work, I see no reason not to pay her. Then have a mature discussion about making up the holiday sessions.


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## Change (Jul 19, 2014)

When hiring a trainer, it isn't days/cost so much as it is a goal in a time frame for a price. Whether the trainer has to travel or not should be moot. If the goals were to 1) have the horse loading easily, 2) allow its legs to be handled without kicking, and 3) to ride out without bucking, then those goals should have been stated in the contract for a price. The time frame (30 days) isn't how often the horse it worked, it's a time limit within which a trainer is expected to produce results.

When I trained, the horses came to me, but the principle was the same. If I achieved the goal in 10 days of work, I still got my full fee. If, at the end of 30 days, I hadn't achieved the goal, I continued to work without pay until the goal was achieved or I didn't get paid. The goal was the contract.

I don't know if you had anything in writing, but I would approach your trainer to discuss the training in a goal oriented way. Did we agree on this - was it done?

There are a lot of scam-artists out there that will say they are trainers, charge a lot of money, and achieve nothing - but expect to get paid anyway. ALWAYS ensure the goals are in writing!


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

When I had my mare started for me, she did charge me by the 'work' -- I paid for sixty training sessions, which ended up taking almost three months. I wish more trainers would do this, as it makes things a lot clearer.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I'm talking to a Western Dressage trainer right now. Business questions I asked her: 

#1 What is full board/training/month?
#2 How often do the horses get ridden and for how long (roughly)
#3 How many lessons are included in the monthly price
#4 Are they private, semi private, group
#5 What can I expect in 30, 60, 90, 120 days of training

I also told her things I wanted her to evaluate: 

Horse #1 Can he ever do a flying lead change
Horse #2 How far can he go up the levels
Horse #3 Is he even suited to Western Dressage or would he be better Classical
Horse #4 Ditto

Personal goals:

I want to be at the World Championships next October. Lower levels is fine, not winning is fine but I want to do a credible test. Can I do that on the horses I have? 

And trust me, she doesn't do any of that for $400. I daresay she wouldn't get out of bed for that amount of money.


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## WalkingAround (Nov 27, 2016)

Okay you gut obviously didn't read my post. Yes I'm frustrated about that nit being explained. But my biggest concern is whether or not she will be completed with what she said she would. And I also said had money been the issue I would have paid more. She also isn't driving that far, she is staying very close with a friend. She has 4 days left to work. 4DAYS, and she hasn't even gotten on her yet. She hasn't began with the trailer loading either. 
She has been very inconsistent in her days coming. It's 2 days here and 3 there 4 here and none at all for a week. I'm ill. I also said I wouldn't ever nit pay her. And I guess I express my frustrations wrong, bc it's not that I want the whole 30 days, I want my horse to do/be how she said she would once she finished. The bucking is nothing more than her being a heifer bc she's spoiled not being rode. She never did it before, and had I had more time to spend she probably wouldn't now. That's why I paid some one, to spend some time with her do some ground work and get her out of it. Yes, I'll have lots more time in about 2 weeks. I'm moving her closer to me so that I can ride more. Also most trainers around here for facility are between 500-700 tops. And usually charge 20- 25 per travel session plus milage outside of 20 miles.


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## WalkingAround (Nov 27, 2016)

greentree said:


> WalkingAround said:
> 
> 
> > I haven't ridden her, neither has the trainer. That begins next week, her last week. However I can now touch her front leg that she hates me to mess with, that was done in the first 2 days. And she said she messed with her back legs, trying to fix the kicking, but I haven't tried her on that yet. But I had high hopes seeing that progress in 2 days, but I'm worried as the end approaches. I wanted the bucking to stop. It's not hard or violent, she started doing it several months back and she'll buck 5-7 different times during the first 15 mins or so of riding and she's done. I just don't want her doing that.
> ...


No, it's not just me. She give obvious signals aand itit's that she doesn't want to be rode. Some days she's a perfect horse others she's not. I've plan to been there watching her ride and riding also. Also the is saddle riding, something I normally don't do. I usually ride her bareback. So we will see.


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## WalkingAround (Nov 27, 2016)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Standard training is for 30 days, 1 month, at a time. It is not for 30 rides, and for sure, not for $400 when the trainer has to travel 200 miles/day round trip. If you decide to hold her pay, be prepared to never have another trainer agree to take your horse because you will get a really bad rap on this one. And fyi, the cheapest trainer I have ever found around here is $600/mo, most are $1000 and up. So, I'd be paying very quickly and recognizing what a bargain I'd gotten and I'd be in attendance as much of those 4 days as I could be, so I could see exactly what has been done, what is being done and how much still needs to be done at the end of the 4 days.


Okay you guys obviously didn't read my post. Yes I'm frustrated about that nit being explained. But my biggest concern is whether or not she will be completed with what she said she would. And I also said had money been the issue I would have paid more. She also isn't driving that far, she is staying very close with a friend. She has 4 days left to work. 4DAYS, and she hasn't even gotten on her yet. She hasn't began with the trailer loading either. 
She has been very inconsistent in her days coming. It's 2 days here and 3 there 4 here and none at all for a week. I'm ill. I also said I wouldn't ever nit pay her. And I guess I express my frustrations wrong, bc it's not that I want the whole 30 days, I want my horse to do/be how she said she would once she finished. The bucking is nothing more than her being a heifer bc she's spoiled not being rode. She never did it before, and had I had more time to spend she probably wouldn't now. That's why I paid some one, to spend some time with her do some ground work and get her out of it. Yes, I'll have lots more time in about 2 weeks. I'm moving her closer to me so that I can ride more. Also most trainers around here for facility are between 500-700 tops. And usually charge 20- 25 per travel session plus milage outside of 20 miles.


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## WalkingAround (Nov 27, 2016)

Bright Stride Equine said:


> tinyliny said:
> 
> 
> > most training sold by the month (30 days-) usually isn't actually 30 training sessions. rather it is the horse is at their facility for 30 days and gets training rides a set number of times per week. it might BE daily, if that is stated, or more likely 3 days a week or ? something arranged with owner.
> ...





Change said:


> When hiring a trainer, it isn't days/cost so much as it is a goal in a time frame for a price. Whether the trainer has to travel or not should be moot. If the goals were to 1) have the horse loading easily, 2) allow its legs to be handled without kicking, and 3) to ride out without bucking, then those goals should have been stated in the contract for a price. The time frame (30 days) isn't how often the horse it worked, it's a time limit within which a trainer is expected to produce results.
> 
> When I trained, the horses came to me, but the principle was the same. If I achieved the goal in 10 days of work, I still got my full fee. If, at the end of 30 days, I hadn't achieved the goal, I continued to work without pay until the goal was achieved or I didn't get paid. The goal was the contract.
> 
> ...





Avna said:


> When I had my mare started for me, she did charge me by the 'work' -- I paid for sixty training sessions, which ended up taking almost three months. I wish more trainers would do this, as it makes things a lot clearer.





Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I'm talking to a Western Dressage trainer right now. Business questions I asked her:
> 
> #1 What is full board/training/month?
> #2 How often do the horses get ridden and for how long (roughly)
> ...


Okay you gut obviously didn't read my post. Yes I'm frustrated about that nit being explained. But my biggest concern is whether or not she will be completed with what she said she would. And I also said had money been the issue I would have paid more. She also isn't driving that far, she is staying very close with a friend. She has 4 days left to work. 4DAYS, and she hasn't even gotten on her yet. She hasn't began with the trailer loading either. 
She has been very inconsistent in her days coming. It's 2 days here and 3 there 4 here and none at all for a week. I'm ill. I also said I wouldn't ever nit pay her. And I guess I express my frustrations wrong, bc it's not that I want the whole 30 days, I want my horse to do/be how she said she would once she finished. The bucking is nothing more than her being a heifer bc she's spoiled not being rode. She never did it before, and had I had more time to spend she probably wouldn't now. That's why I paid some one, to spend some time with her do some ground work and get her out of it. Yes, I'll have lots more time in about 2 weeks. I'm moving her closer to me so that I can ride more. Also most trainers around here for facility are between 500-700 tops. And usually charge 20- 25 per travel session plus milage outside of 20 miles.

I don't show my mare, or do any that fancy stuff. I trail ride. That's it.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

My farrier's son will go to the horse and charges $50.00 an hour to do so. I took a gelding to him when he was first getting started in the training business and I was quite surprised at the end of the month when I called and asked when to pick him up and he told me he didn't have the 30 rides in yet. This is extremely rare in my experience and he really short changed himself in my opinion because he only charged $350.00 and ended up having him for a month and a half. He made me tear up the check I wrote him for $525 as I was ok with paying for 45 days, he did a good job. I provided feed and hay. 

The professional training barn I took several to charged $800 for 30 days which included full board and they rode 6 days a week during that 30 days, taking Sundays off. Once his boys got them started they would do the arena training in the a.m. and if you were wanting a trail horse the dad would saddle up and take them on a short trail in the p.m. The last week or so the client was to come every day and take a lesson on the horse and they still put another hour on the horse themselves.

Then there was the first trainer I ever used. Don't even get me started on that lowlife. And don't think I didn't do my homework before using him, I'm very picky about how my horses are treated. He charged by the month (been a long time ago but I think it was $600 and included hay but you furnished your own feed) and worked them 5 days a week.

The purpose of this reply is to show you that there isn't a set standard when it comes to horse trainers. It's up to you to find out exactly what they mean when they say 30 days.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

When I did a few little travel training gigs, I charged $25 per session (not hour) per horse within my area, additional travel cost outside it. I explained that I did not charge by the hour but rather set a goal for the day and either accomplished it or got the horse as close as I could. Sometimes this meant 20 minutes, sometimes it meant an hour and a half or two hours. Most of my sessions averaged 45 minutes.

Unfortunately my last client taught me a bit of a hard lesson. I had never had a client that did not have the horse groomed and ready when I arrived. This lady did not have them groomed or ready. Not normally a huge deal for me. However, her horses would fidget to no end and just in general were very bad on the ground and to tie. They would pull on the rope until it came loose if I just had it looped. If I hard tied them they would pull back. I worked with them on this, but it was taking me an extra half hour just to do a basic grooming and tack the horse. I told her that her horses needed to learn how to stand when tied, but not only did she not think it was important, she also lacked an adequate place to tie and made no effort to put one in (I loose tied the horses in her round pen. If I hard tied them, they would pull back and pull the panels in. There was no adequate place to teach them to tie). Her goal was to get the horses trail riding. I did that and got them much better at standing, but the amount of extra time it took me to groom, tack, and put the hoof boots on (average 5 minutes per boot) made my paltry fee near worthless.

I'm not blaming her. This was on me for not communicating that I expected her to at least have the horses groomed when I arrived. Because of this client I decided that in the future I would charge an extra $10 if I had to groom the horse.

Communication is EVERYTHING. Try talking to the trainer and see if you can work out a deal. If she is unreasonable, personally I would probably just go ahead and pay her and just use someone else next time rather than get blacklisted with the trainers in the area.


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## SomethingSpecial (Aug 14, 2015)

WalkingAround said:


> I also said I wouldn't ever nit pay her.


The title of the thread is "Should I pay my trainer?"
You should be able to see where everyone is getting the idea that you plan on not paying...


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

WalkingAround said:


> No, it's not just me. She give obvious signals aand itit's that she doesn't want to be rode. Some days she's a perfect horse others she's not. I've plan to been there watching her ride and riding also. Also the is saddle riding, something I normally don't do. I usually ride her bareback. So we will see.


What happens if she decides to a perfect horse on the training days? A trainer can't stop a horse from doing what it's not doing.
I've had some horses that I was told had 'such & such' problems & they didn't do it with me or didn't do it twice. In some cases it was rider error, in others the horses knew the had the owner's number.

Sometimes bareback riders are not so good riding with a saddle. Can you do both well? If not you may be disappointed.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

@horseluver2524
that's a bargain! $25 per session? around here, it would be 3 or 4 times that much.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

@tinyliny

(sorry for the minor thread derail OP)

Yes, I know, as I said paltry fee. However, I didn't feel justified charging more because I checked local training ads before setting my price and other trainers, some of them show horse trainers with far more experience than I, were going for as low as $35 an hour. I advertised myself as a trail horse, basics, and behavioral problem trainer. I don't have experience showing and never trained a show horse. That doesn't mean that I'm not a good rider or trainer though, I've had plenty of lessons from other trainers and real life experience lol.

ETA: I also told my clients that I am a newer trainer just starting out, so they knew that they were getting what they were paying for. I wasn't charging top dollar because I don't have the experience to be a top dollar trainer. However, I never had an unsatisfied client!

BTW, if you want to keep a horse, Phoenix AZ and surrounding areas are one of the cheaper places to do it, however there is no pasture and if you do find someone that has it you are probably going to pay double for it. My current boarding rate that I pay is $275. Horse is fed 5x a day, has her own individual round pen (as turnout/run) and stall, and stalls are cleaned daily and bedded with wood chips. There is also an arena and trails right down the street.
If you move there you will probably get sick of the desert within a year though!


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## ShirtHotTeez (Sep 23, 2014)

Sorry to say I think you will have to chalk this one up to experience. Some life lessons are more expensive than others. You could try talking to her and saying there has obviously been miscommunication, and that your main concern is that with only four days left she hasn't even started what was meant to be addressed. Pay up, suck it up and move on. Another time you now have experience as to how to go about a contract IN WRITING, with expectations on each side.

Trainers travel is not your problem other than what is set out in the contract. With no industry standard it is essential to establish how often and how trainer will work with horse, and what is expected to be achieved and what what hoped to achieve.

It is very disrespectful to get niggly with the people trying to give helpful responses. They are offering their time, experience and opinions for free; you can use them or not as you wish. When several seem to have "not read" your posts but coming up with the same answers perhaps the original question isn't clear.

I suggest when you pay up that you tell trainer you feel 'bad' as you both seem to have different agenda's and you don't feel you got what you thought you were paying for. If you choose to pay for a further 30 days, you now know to get everything specific in writing. I hope it all works out ok for you.


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## Bright Stride Equine (Oct 20, 2016)

horseluvr2524 said:


> @tinyliny
> 
> (sorry for the minor thread derail OP)
> 
> Yes, I know, as I said paltry fee. However, I didn't feel justified charging more because I checked local training ads before setting my price and other trainers, some of them show horse trainers with far more experience than I, were going for as low as $35 an hour. I advertised myself as a trail horse, basics, and behavioral problem trainer. I don't have experience showing and never trained a show horse. That doesn't mean that I'm not a good rider or trainer though, I've had plenty of lessons from other trainers and real life experience lol.


I charged $25 when I first started to! (actually, I started teaching for free to some young girls at my barn). Same reasons as you, lack of professional experience. I charge more now, because I do this for a living and adulthood is ridiculously expensive.


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## elkdog (Nov 28, 2016)

If you don't pay the trainer, chances are you just sold your horse for what would amount to $400. The up-side is your loading and bucking issues are solved!


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

tinyliny said:


> Moderator's note:
> @Yogiwick : I am sorry that happened to you. what occured was that the OP had 2 identical threads started. I saw this , checked that NEITHER had any responses posted to it, and went through the process of reporting the duplicate, and then choosing one to remove. in the several minutes of doing this, you must have actually hit the 'post' button, (which I could not see your post actually come up when I was in the process of deleting that thread), so you posted to a thread that was in the process of being removed.
> in the 5 years that I have been moderating, this is the first time this has occured.


No worries, I figured as much and obviously made sense to delete one. Just always frustrating to lose a post!  Not a big deal at all.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I have not read the thread, maybe I will after dinner.

I do not travel to anyone else's property anymore unless they are a good friend of mine these days, but when I get a horse in for 30 days, it's five days a week, for a month. No, that's not actually 30 training sessions. This is also why I make people sign contracts, because if not, someone might complain that I didn't do what was requested.

Now between the two of you it seems like a misunderstanding. I would state your concerns as professionally as possible and you might be surprised to find her willing to work with you.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

WalkingAround said:


> Okay you gut obviously didn't read my post. Yes I'm frustrated about that nit being explained. *But my biggest concern is whether or not she will be completed with what she said she would*. And I also said had money been the issue I would have paid more. She also isn't driving that far, she is staying very close with a friend. She has 4 days left to work. 4DAYS, and she hasn't even gotten on her yet. She hasn't began with the trailer loading either.
> She has been very inconsistent in her days coming. It's 2 days here and 3 there 4 here and none at all for a week. I'm ill. I also said I wouldn't ever nit pay her. And I guess I express my frustrations wrong, bc it's not that I want the whole 30 days, I want my horse to do/be how she said she would once she finished. The bucking is nothing more than her being a heifer bc she's spoiled not being rode. She never did it before, and had I had more time to spend she probably wouldn't now. That's why I paid some one, to spend some time with her do some ground work and get her out of it. Yes, I'll have lots more time in about 2 weeks. I'm moving her closer to me so that I can ride more. Also most trainers around here for facility are between 500-700 tops. And usually charge 20- 25 per travel session plus milage outside of 20 miles.


That IS perfectly valid....but you need to give her the benefit of a doubt and not get upset about her not following through on her end until her end is actually wrapped up. If everything is finalized and your horse still has the issues that she PROMISED would be fixed then yes, you have a very very valid point. But that hasn't actually happened yet, has it?


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

"Should I pay my trainer?" 
"I've paid her 200. I was speaking specifically about with hiding the other 200 "

Can't imagine why we'd get the idea you were planning to not pay.


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## WalkingAround (Nov 27, 2016)

For attention to the post.


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## WalkingAround (Nov 27, 2016)

natisha said:


> WalkingAround said:
> 
> 
> > No, it's not just me. She give obvious signals aand itit's that she doesn't want to be rode. Some days she's a perfect horse others she's not. I've plan to been there watching her ride and riding also. Also the is saddle riding, something I normally don't do. I usually ride her bareback. So we will see.
> ...


I agree with you on that. Horses are different often with different people. But her issues are with anyone, from what I've witnessed, who wants to ride. It's due to being pasture spoiled from lack of riding over the past couple years. That's my fault for not riding much and spending time with her. And yes, I do ride in a saddle and bareback. I just prefer bareback, but my mare had just gotten use to the idea before I stopped riding her much. So I'll start again after training with riding her often in a saddle, then slowly transitioning into bareback again like before so that we will be able to do either one.


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## WalkingAround (Nov 27, 2016)

Thanks! And yes, it will be a lesson learned.. I intent to pay her, but meant in reference to when. I'll see this week, and how things go to see whether I get burned bad or not. I tried talking with her, but never received a response. I was more than polite, bc I understand it was misinformation/communication on both if our parts.


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## WalkingAround (Nov 27, 2016)

elkdog said:


> If you don't pay the trainer, chances are you just sold your horse for what would amount to $400. The up-side is your loading and bucking issues are solved!


Papers I signed never said that. It was a liability waiver, it also stated the issue I had that she stated she would resolve. I guess I should have changed the title, I meant pay this week. I plan to pay her, I would never jip someone like that. But I feel if she only rides 4 days, and works trailer loading 4 days, the issues won't be solved by then. Which means our agreement isn't being held up on her end, and if she doesn't hold up on hers, why am I wrong for stalling payment until the agreement is met? I like her, I think she's good but I feel like she's not giving me what I'm paying for, what she said she would and it's being to feel half attempted after the first week of work.


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## WalkingAround (Nov 27, 2016)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> "Should I pay my trainer?"
> "I've paid her 200. I was speaking specifically about with hiding the other 200 "
> 
> Can't imagine why we'd get the idea you were planning to not pay.



And the rest of that says "until our agreement is met, at least part of it"..
See the difference there.

I don't see the point in trying to make it out to be something worse than it is, it's pretty clear that I'm asking should I stall the other half of the payment until our agreement is met?


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## Blitz (Nov 24, 2016)

Change said:


> When hiring a trainer, it isn't days/cost so much as it is a goal in a time frame for a price. Whether the trainer has to travel or not should be moot. If the goals were to 1) have the horse loading easily, 2) allow its legs to be handled without kicking, and 3) to ride out without bucking, then those goals should have been stated in the contract for a price. The time frame (30 days) isn't how often the horse it worked, it's a time limit within which a trainer is expected to produce results.
> 
> When I trained, the horses came to me, but the principle was the same. If I achieved the goal in 10 days of work, I still got my full fee. If, at the end of 30 days, I hadn't achieved the goal, I continued to work without pay until the goal was achieved or I didn't get paid. The goal was the contract.
> 
> ...


This thread is entertaining, we have the OP who can not spell, we have this gentlemen above that I quoted stating he gets paid by the " job ". Your " guarantees " are a dream come true to an owner like myself, but detrimental to your success as a trainer. Every horse is different, some may take 1 month, others 3 months etc. How in the world can you guarantee a result within the set timeframe on a animal? You can not, no one can. If some trainer told me they have a set fee wether it takes a day or 3 months I would laugh in their face. 

OP - You go to school? It is your responsibility to do the due diligence and proper research on the individual trainer. Pay the trainer. I would just suggest having a contract set in place regarding the basis of the training. Other than that anyone " guaranteeing " you results regardless the confidence level I consider a clown. I concur with " you get what you pay for ".


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## Blitz (Nov 24, 2016)

elkdog said:


> If you don't pay the trainer, chances are you just sold your horse for what would amount to $400. The up-side is your loading and bucking issues are solved!


LOL! Very true


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

WalkingAround said:


> And the rest of that says "until our agreement is met, at least part of it"..
> See the difference there.
> 
> I don't see the point in trying to make it out to be something worse than it is, it's pretty clear that I'm asking should I stall the other half of the payment until our agreement is met?


Unless you have a contract stating very clearly, "For $400, the trainer will teach horse to load, stop bucking and quit kicking, flat fee, regardless of time taken" or " Contract is for 25 rides for $400 or $16/ride.", then the usual and customary contract is for 1 month or 30 days. You don't get money off just because Feb has 28 days, or money off because the trainer goes to a 10 day show in the middle of the month, or there's a holiday and the trainer doesn't ride. So, once again, unless you want a really bad reputation in a very small world, pay the trainer. Not a week from now, not when the horse is perfect, now. If I were your trainer and the end of the 30 days came, I would file a lien on your horse and serve you notice that if necessary we'd go to small claims court. It is up to you to be sure you understand the terms of the contract. As you have seen from this thread, the majority of people go by the 30 day contract unless something else is spelled out specifically. 

Can she do it all in 4 days? Maybe. She sounds like she's been laying the foundation by doing ground work and patching holes. If that's the case, then I'd say 4 days to finish is not unreasonable. Unless she's also training you though, I would not have much confidence that the mare won't go back to her old ways because you will have learned nothing.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

I have people pay up front, no 1/2 here 1/2 there stuff.

I don't promise a thing mainly because most people don't have an accurate assessment of their own horse. I've found a hardly been handled horse much easier & faster to teach than one with problems that need to be overcome.

Each horse is different so promising something in a certain timeline is not possible-for me anyway. For example: Someone may say their horse is hard to load but it could be because the horse doesn't even lead well, tie or give to pressure. That may need to be fixed before even looking at a trailer & any fix should involve the owner too.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

You can't withold money because you THINK in the FUTURE someone else may not hold up their end...That doesn't make sense

I was also skeptical at first but now it sounds like she may have done a lot more then you appreciate...


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

WalkingAround said:


> The lady told me 400 for 30 days and she'd have her tuned up and fix her problem loading in a trailer.
> 
> I told her it should have been stated that it's 400 for 18 days (by the time she ends next week and that's pushung it) rather than telling me 400 for 30 days.


Did you ASK her what the 30 days entailed? If you did not ask, you cannot be mad at her. 

It is standard for trainers to charge a "monthly" rate of 30 days but they are usually NOT working with them every single day. _Some_ trainers will work per ride or per session, but that usually is not the norm.

Never assume anything. If you have questions, ask. If this really was your first time using a trainer, I would have thought you would have had all sorts of questions. 

*Did you sign a written contract?*



WalkingAround said:


> And I dont think anything should be left for assumption when someone says 30 days. It should have been made clear if that is not what she meant.* How else is someone supposed to take "I'll do the training for 30 days"?*
> 
> Only bc she don't specify that agreement and knew I had no knowledge of how trainers generally operate.


Since it is an industry standard to charge by the month (aka "30 days"), most likely any trainer you would have hired would have said the same.

Just like if you get pulled over for speeding and you tell the police officer that you "didn't know the speed limit was only 55 mph", you most likely would not get out of the ticket because _ignorance is not a defense_. As with all aspects of life, you are the one responsible for you, and responsible for your own education. 



WalkingAround said:


> Should I hold the other half until she does 30 days? I don't know how to handle this.


If you agreed on the payment terms, then you should honor it. 

If you decide to hold payment, she may decide to stop training until she is paid.


Or, if you hold payment, based on your state laws, the horse could possibly now belong to your trainer until you pay up.



WalkingAround said:


> Papers I signed never said that.


Doesn't matter. Depends on your state laws. 




WalkingAround said:


> But my biggest concern is whether or not she will be completed with what she said she would.


I agree with the others to give her the chance, since your time is not yet up.

If money is not an issue for you, pay her and then address what to do *IF* she doesn't deliver what you were expecting. If your horse is simply spoiled and needs a good ride or two, she may very well be able to get the bucks out in just a couple of good rides. Give her a chance.


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## WalkingAround (Nov 27, 2016)

Well ypu guys, I paid her (the day she was expecting) and guess what... she hasn't been back or contacted me since. She never even road my horse. I appreciate you answers but I felt I should have just went a head and held the last 309 until I got a ride or 2 from her. Lesson learnex but that ****es me off some. Bc don't get me wrong, she wasn't bad with the horse.. she was pretty good. But she did not hold up her end on what we agreed. I did talk to her ab the 30 day thing. And I'm sorry having her come out for 12 days for 400 dollars us insane, esp to have nit even rode her before she left. Thanks for the help. And getting a bad rep is not my concern, I wouldn't have been the one who looked bad. She does now. Even with holding pay, where I'm from a person's word is a big thing.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Have you tried contacting her?


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## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

What does your contract say? You should have had a contract that specified exactly how many training sessions minimum, how long, etc. You should have also had an official agreed upon start date for your 30 days. 30 days rarely ever means 1 training session a day for 30 days. I think you need to talk with her about what she had agreed to deliver and what you're ending up with.


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## elkdog (Nov 28, 2016)

You got off lucky. There are "trainers" here that are crooks. One will do 30 days for $500 AND $50 to go get it AND $75 for shoes AND 1/2 ton of hay $75 (that he feeds to his horse and gives yours the crappy hay). 30 days go by and the horse isn't ready. Another 1/2 ton of hay $75 more. Two weeks later he puts more shoes on another $75. So after 2 months you finally get your horse. No extra charge for the scars. $850 and you still can't ride it. One guy took him a 2 year old filly. He starved it for three months. When he got her back he still couldn't put a saddle on her. Cost him over $1,000. 8 months later, after he got her fattened up, his filly had a filly! He has been sued a few times but nobody has collected a dime.


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## Chasin Ponies (Dec 25, 2013)

elkdog said:


> You got off lucky. There are "trainers" here that are crooks. One will do 30 days for $500 AND $50 to go get it AND $75 for shoes AND 1/2 ton of hay $75 (that he feeds to his horse and gives yours the crappy hay). 30 days go by and the horse isn't ready. Another 1/2 ton of hay $75 more. Two weeks later he puts more shoes on another $75. So after 2 months you finally get your horse. No extra charge for the scars. $850 and you still can't ride it. One guy took him a 2 year old filly. He starved it for three months. When he got her back he still couldn't put a saddle on her. Cost him over $1,000. 8 months later, after he got her fattened up, his filly had a filly! He has been sued a few times but nobody has collected a dime.


Elkdog, sounds like my area! I personally know at least 4 local "trainers" who do this exact thing and much, much worse. Most real horse people won't let them touch their horses (because of what they've done to these horses) but these "trainers" seem to have no trouble snagging the newbies who don't know any better. I'd hate to be new to horses and looking for a legitimate, honest trainer!!


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## WalkingAround (Nov 27, 2016)

I spoke with her about the specifics on how many days after I posted this bc I was under the impression 30 days meant 30 days. I was wrong to assume that. However, after talking with her I told her that should have been something that was mentioned to begin with, but she stated 30 days averaged out to be about 4 days a week for 4 weeks. I didn't even get that. I got 12 days. 12 DAYS!! She got on my horses back ONE time, in a round pen for about 10-15 minutes. The horse tried bucking too. Note, I ride this horse. I don't often because she's a real heifer most of the time but she will ride. (I haven't had the time to give her, which is why I hired a trainer) I wanted her loading so I could bring her to my new place, as of now she's 45 mins away from me. She promised to work on trailer loading and riding when we discussed the last half of the payment, and she never returned. I've tried contacting her over the past 2 weeks to no avail. I don't know what to do. I've seen her on FB offering to train others near me as well. I'd hate for them to have the same nonsense go on. $400 may not be a lot to you guys but I bust my but for every dollar I make. The horse was at my place, fed by me, watered by me, I take care of her. She just showed up every now and again and messed with her 20-30 mins and left. She offered (when we talked ab the 30 day misunderstanding) to stable my horse at her training facility for an extra $100 and give her 15 rides. She claims it at a discount and that her lack of time is due to having horses at her facility as well, and not even time between traveling to me. Note that she reached out to me, knowing where my horse was located and how far it was from her. She offered her services and promised to uphold her deal. Yes a contract was signed, but there wasnt much to it, mostly just saying I couldn't sue if she broke my stuff or my horse was injured somehow. I'm furious, mostly with the dishonesty. Sure the money too, but where I'm from your word goes a long way, and I guess it's my fault for being naive to that. She knows a lot of the same people I do. Good friend with them, which made me feel I could trust her word more. But to not even have the decency to contact me back and let me know something is infuriating. Is there anything that I can do? I mean it'd cost more than what I paid her to take legal action. I had considered leaving a professional, but negative review on her business Facebook page (I might would even get a response then) or would it be best to do nothing, say nothing and take it as lesson learned.


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## WalkingAround (Nov 27, 2016)

Also, the contract, and I know you guys say 30 days doesn't mean 30 days.. but it doesn't say a month or so many days a week for a month... it says.... includes 30 days of training of said horse at owners facility.


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## WalkingAround (Nov 27, 2016)

Would I be wrong to ask for a partial refund, or have her come back out. It's the principal of things. 
I'm not new to horses but I am to trainers, as I've always trained my own, just so happens I haven't had the time I needed in the past couple of years.


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## WalkingAround (Nov 27, 2016)

.........


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

WalkingAround said:


> Would I be wrong to ask for a partial refund, or have her come back out. It's the principal of things.
> I'm not new to horses but I am to trainers, as I've always trained my own, just so happens I haven't had the time I needed in the past couple of years.


No you wouldn't be wrong at all to ask her to fulfill the terms of the contract or refund half of what you paid her. While most of us accept that 30 days isn't really 30 days, I know I sure wouldn't accept 12 days either. If you documented the days and times she was there be sure to inform her you have that info noted.


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## WalkingAround (Nov 27, 2016)

I don't have the times but I have all of our conversations saved that she said she wouldn't be there. She was to start the 24th of Oct but started the 2nd of Nov. through the 4th. Came back on the 10th-11th. Then 15th-18th and then on the 2nd of Dec when i payed the last half, and haven't seen her or heard from her since. She said she'd be back to finish and make up for thanksgiving week because she didn't come at all...


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## WalkingAround (Nov 27, 2016)

JCnGrace said:


> WalkingAround said:
> 
> 
> > Would I be wrong to ask for a partial refund, or have her come back out. It's the principal of things.
> ...










I don't have the times but I have all of our conversations stating the days she wouldn't be there. Was to started the 24thof Oct but started the Nov 2-4 then left and came back the 10-11 and left. Came 15-18 left and came back Dec 2 for last payment and said she'd return to finish up. That was the one and only time she was on the horses back.. in a small round pen for 15 mins maybe.


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## ShirtHotTeez (Sep 23, 2014)

I know you are upset and with good reason. But I do think you are going to have to let it go, you can't win here. If you decide to leave a comment on her site try and keep it 'clean' no verbal abuse. i.e. "If you employ '...' for training make sure your contract spells out expectations so you don't feel disappointed or ripped off. Thirty days contract is not 30 days training. Specify training times (perhaps within a range, or expected number of hours) because I didn't feel that 15 minutes x times a week was good enough. If she is travelling to you make sure she puts in writing that she has allowed for the time for travelling so that can not be held as an excuse not to come to your horse..." . . . "I felt totally disrespected and feel nothing has been achieved with my horse for the $x that I paid out." 

these are examples use your own words. Or chalk it up to experience, some lessons are more expensive than others and this is just a life lesson.

And best wishes with your horse.


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

I agree that you may need to let this go and learn a bitter lesson. Ask yourself, if you "force" her to come back and spend more time with your horse, what kind of attitude will she have toward that horse? I only want positive attitudes in a trainer. 

If she doesn't get back to you in the next couple of days I would post a "review" of her services on her FB. Professional and adult, but factual. More of a buyer beware.

Rather than pursuing this individual it may be better served to save up the money to pay a REAL trainer to get your horse loading. Perhaps if he were closer to you, you would be able to spend more time working with him yourself.


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## WalkingAround (Nov 27, 2016)

I left a review. It was very clean. It started with while I think she is knowledgeable and capable of training her professionalism, or lack there of, has left me feeling salty. And explained why a little bit. She finally contacted me since I'm mentioned going to small claims court (it's only 50 dollars here) and according to the lawyer I spoke with, she didn't a decent job covering her own butt, however her contracts specifies 30 days of training, she did not fullfill it so the contract has been breached. Yes ya'll can call me crazy, but it's the principle and I'm quite angry about it all. Mostly bc she has avoided me, I couldn't even get a reply saying, "no, I've done all I'm going to do" 

It isn't my job to know the general rule of what 30 days mean, if it isn't specified in the contract, 30 means 30. I am at no fault for the time she has to drive, she chose to come to me, she contacted me offering her services knowing how far away I was. I do not want her to finish. I'll gladly take a partial refund and be on my way. I would be scared to allow her to work with my horse after all of this for fear if what could happen due to harsh feelings. I mostly needed her trailer loading skills worked on.. if I get her in all trailer, I can bring her closer to me and fo it myself.


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