# Gag VS Snaffle bit for harshness?



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hi,

No, it's not a 'watered down' anything, but is like a x between a curb & snaffle. I personally think it should be an 'either or' affair, that depending on how you train & use the bit, you should have something like a snaffle OR a curb, not a combo - that's why there are double bridles which have 2 bits, because they're best used in different ways. Eg. curbs are best used with equal pressure on either side, for vertical flexion, while snaffles are best used with direct reining.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Lets get some facts straight!
Firstly this is *not* a gag bit. A true gag has the cheek pieces running through the bit rings. This just gives you the choice of how much poll pressure you can have by the placement of the reins on the rings. 
Secondly it is also nothing like a curb bit. A curb has a chain going around the horses lower jaw.

My answer is that if it works and you are getting the results then keep using it. Some horses go better in a certain type of bit, and the fact that you do not have the single joint in the mouthpiece could be the answer rather than the poll pressure.


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## KeroKero (Jul 5, 2011)

Foxhunter said:


> Secondly it is also nothing like a curb bit. A curb has a chain going around the horses lower jaw..


So curbs main action point is that chain under the jaw? OOoooh I never knew that, I thought it was poll/tongue pressure. Good to know!



Foxhunter said:


> Some horses go better in a certain type of bit, and the fact that you do not have the single joint in the mouthpiece could be the answer rather than the poll pressure.


That is definitely possible! And because I can switch to having my reins on the mouthpiece-loop, I can use it as just a french link snaffle. Once i get his woah off only my seat/legs, I will switch it up. 

Thanks for the info!! I know some also call this an "elevator" bit, but the online shopping sites & the tag it had on it said gag, I did not know there was a difference ahaha. D'oh! Trust no one, eh? I mean how many tom thumbs have I see labeled snaffle...


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## BarrelRacingLvr (Feb 26, 2012)

I ride western, but that IS a Gag Bit. There is more then one type of gag....

And with this gag it is a curb as well and would have the chain to add pressure under the chin but would also have poll pressure when pulled. 

Any bit is only as harsh as the hands make it...some horses do great in snaffles and don't get hard or try and figure out the bit. While some horses DO need something a little different every now and again when they are basically flipping you the hoof which it sounds like your horse was doing. To evade the bit he would just tuck his chin and go on.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

KeroKero said:


> He improved for direct reining but never got good brakes, he would just plunge his chin to his chest and keep and walking.


Your problem is that he doesn't respect when you ask him to halt. Teach him to halt EVERY SINGLE BLESSED TIME on the ground. Demand it. I've taught my 6yo's the English for it and I use ounces of pressure NOW to get a halt, both with a lead and with the reins. I also back them up EVERY TIME I lead them to do ANYTHING. This winter I intend to start backing around the training ring, around my horse trailer, and back them into their stalls. It is a VERY valuable skill to teach your horse.
I suggest you don't rely on a gag to help you. Your horse isn't listening to any bit right now, and the gag pulling on his head will create the same reaction as a horse pulling back on a lead when tied with the intention of breaking free, in panic mode. Your next problem will be rearing bc of the gag.
Gags are really useful for eventers, whose horses are finished for riding, but get very strong when jumping. Horses will sometimes learn a job and then want to take over. The gag gives the eventing rider, and the jumper-rider a little more control so that their horses don't jump too flat. It is NOT intended to help break a horse in.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

BarrelRacingLvr said:


> I ride western, but that IS a Gag Bit. There is more then one type of gag....
> 
> And with this gag it is a curb as well and would have the chain to add pressure under the chin but would also have poll pressure when pulled.
> 
> Any bit is only as harsh as the hands make it...some horses do great in snaffles and don't get hard or try and figure out the bit. While some horses DO need something a little different every now and again when they are basically flipping you the hoof which it sounds like your horse was doing. To evade the bit he would just tuck his chin and go on.












Regardless of what name this bit is given it is *NOT *a gag!
It is nothing more than a multi ringed snaffle. The rings giving the option on placing more poll pressure depending on where the reins are placed.










A conventional gag has has rounded cheekpieces running through them to which the rein is attached. 
Rein pressure on a gag raises the bit in the horse' mouth telling it to raise its head. It will exert some pressure against the mouth telling the horse to bring its nose inwards.
it is a fairly severe bit but often necessary on a strong pulling horse that goes into a fence with its head on the ground. It can also help to get a horse (in conjunction with the riders leg) to get a horse off its forehand. 
There are many types of gag but they all have the cheeks running through the bit rings.

If a curb was added to the multi ringed snaffle then it would be a curb bit - but a bit is only a curb if it has the chain fixed under the chin.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Thanks for the correction, but, regardless, I think that we agree that the BIT isn't the problem, and that bit won't be the OP's solution.


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## showjumper09 (Nov 1, 2012)

Unless I am jumping my horses, I *always* use a light snaffle. It's a training preference, but I don't believe in cycling through a bunch of different bits to fix each little problem - find a light to mild bit you can work with, and stick with that. If after consistent work you are still having problems, I'd seek the advice of a trainer that can watch you ride and offer advice, and also have them ride your horse to get a feel for him and determine a solution.

The bit above (I've always used the term elevator?) can easily turn into a harsh bit, even if you're not intending it that way. Be very mindful of your placement of the reins on the rings, and even more mindful of your hands as you ride.

I'd also just like to add that although I like to school in a light snaffle, I'm not opposed to using other training methods *for short periods of time* to aid in the horse's development. For example, I've dealt with jumpers that get very heavy and strong, especially at the canter. To aid in our training of making the horse lighter and softer, I'll use draw reins on the flat. While you cannot jump in draw reins, you can work with the horse and apply these aids on course.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Corporal said:


> Thanks for the correction, but, regardless, I think that we agree that the BIT isn't the problem, and that bit won't be the OP's solution.


As I said originally it could well be the broken mouthpiece that has made the difference not the poll pressure.

Although there is nothing to beat good schooling some horses will not go in a simple snaffle. I have had it happen on more than one occasion. One mare that had been trained as a Police Horse, was like this. She went beautifully in any curb bit even without the curb, put he in any type of snaffle and she was head shaking, evading the bit, throwing herself around and hot as hell. I tried all I could to get her in a snaffle but never succeeded.


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## KeroKero (Jul 5, 2011)

Could anyone tell me why they think this bit is particularly harsh? It's just that he is so responsive to it and in such a better mood after each session, I cannot really understand people's reactions to it... I feel like I'm missing something.

Pulling back even as far as you can (which I don't need to) on the bottom loop, the cheekpiece is brought 'forward' only by about an inch and a half, and because you are pulling back when in the saddle, and not down, the actual mouthpiece seems to put very light pressure on the bars of his mouth (the mouthpiece moves freely on the biggest loop, rotates). There's no nose piece or curb strap to this thing... Am I underestimating the 'squeeze' it puts on his face do you think?


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I usually do not disagree with Foxhunter, *but this is a GAG bit.* It is commonly known as a 'Wonder Bit'. Any bit is considered a gag bit if it adds pressure to the horse's poll. Any gag curb gets its gag action from the mouthpiece moving on the cheekpiece instead of by having the reins slide through the bit rings.

Gag bits are very useful for some specific things and the OP discovered one of them. Like many specialty bits, gag bits can 'fix' a specific problem and then let the rider go back to a regular bit after the fix. They are very useful for getting lateral flexion and for 'picking up a shoulder' (which is why many speed event riders use them) and they are really useful for horses that 'fold up' and put their chins on their chests so they can avoid the bit by 'getting behind the bit'.

You have to be careful with a gag curb because the sliding mouthpiece can act with a curb-chain and pinch the corner of a horse's mouth. The Wonder Bits are particularly bad about doing this. I used to run the curb-chain from the top ring, through the big ring and then under the horse's chin. The looser you keep the curb-chain, the more 'gag action' the bit has. If a horse is really bad about folding up and ignoring the bit, you use a piece of thin rope or cord for a headstall and give the gag action more bite.

I have had horses brought to me that someone rode in draw-reins until the horses learned to just fold their chins all the way to their chests and a gag curb with a string headstall was all that you could teach them to respond to at all. Once they learned they could not just bolt and fold up, I went back to an ordinary bit and they were ok. 

Right now, I have a gag snaffle (with sliding reins) and a Wonder Bit hanging on my tack-room wall and both are covered with dust. [I've robbed the reins and curb chain off of the Wonder bit.] I have not used either in over 5 years, but I'll keep them just in case. Since I quit taking in outside horses, the need for most 'specialty bits' has disappeared.

And no, it is not harsh. It has more 'give' in it and more 'pre-signal' than an ordinary snaffle. Its effectiveness comes from using a different pressure point that the horse cannot 'hide' from.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Foxhunter that *is a GAG. *It is not a multi ring snaffle. Anything with shanks is NOT a snaffle. 

It's not a wonder bit either I'm afraid. The action is similar, but this is a wonder:

Wonder Bit - The Tack Stop

Honestly, keeping your horse in a snaffle just to "keep the mouth light" but having you pull and pull and pull is doing nothing for you. Some horses just don't do well in snaffles, contrary to popular belief. Or, alternatively, they may not like the mouthpiece or that particular ring or metal. It's a huge ballpark to choose from. If this horse responds better to the added pressure of the gag on the poll as opposed to just the mouth pressure from the snaffle, then great. It's no differant than a horse responding to nose pressure better than mouth pressure from a hackamore to a bit.

I don't think this particular gag is very harsh. Stronger than a snaffle, but not the strongest option you can get. I'm a barrel racer, I know a lot of strong bits. That mouthpiece is not harsh; The only strong thing about that bit is the shanks. The gag offers a lot of warning before total contact on the horse too. I'd rather have a gag with those shanks than a bit with a fixed mouthpiece and that shank length.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Cherie said:


> I usually do not disagree with Foxhunter, *but this is a GAG bit.* It is commonly known as a 'Wonder Bit'. Any bit is considered a gag bit if it adds pressure to the horse's poll. Any gag curb gets its gag action from the mouthpiece moving on the cheekpiece instead of by having the reins slide through the bit rings.
> 
> *Gag bits are very useful for some specific things and the OP discovered one of them. Like many specialty bits, gag bits can 'fix' a specific problem and then let the rider go back to a regular bit after the fix. They are very useful for getting lateral flexion and for 'picking up a shoulder' (which is why many speed event riders use them) and they are really useful for horses that 'fold up' and put their chins on their chests so they can avoid the bit by 'getting behind the bit'.*
> 
> ...


I bolded my favorite parts.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Thanks above, was a bit confused after Foxhunter's adamance & googled it, only to find a lot of 'multi ringed snaffles' ;-)


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## KeroKero (Jul 5, 2011)

SorrelHorse, Cherie, thank you guys so much, I feel so much better about my bit choice now. I felt so bad doing as the trainers showed me, yanking on his poor mouth so hard in his snaffle - I thought this was a move to a kinder alternative, but met with so much backlash for using a gag. 

Eventually I'd really love to go bitless - I bought a dr cook's bridle in the spring but there was no stopping him at all in that. For now, until I feel 99.999% confident he has his back and woah manners up to code/working off seat ques, I will use this new bit  He has slowly gotten softer to it in the last couple of weeks, it is very encouraging. I also think this bit will help with that transition, since dr cook's also goes by poll pressure.

Thanks to everyone for their insight, I'm sure you've all had your fill of bit threads ahahaha. This forum has really helped me go from step #1 with this beast to... whatever step we are on now. Q?


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I have seen all shank bits with a big sliding ring referred to as Wonder Bits. Here are links to others with various mouthpieces from solid to Billy Allen to 3 piece. I saw one the other day with a correction port and the shank with 3 rings for different leverage positions -- still labeled a 'Wonder Bit'.. My old one has 3 rings on the shank and it was labeled a Wonder Bit when I bought it 35 or 40 years ago. 
The "Wonder" Bit
Wonder Bits
Wonder Bit - Compare Prices, Reviews and Buy at Nextag


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Cherie - we will have to disagree! In any of the UK loriner (bit makers) books a gag has the leverage of cheek pieces. The idea of it is to make the horse rase its head.

The multi ring snaffle acts on poll pressure, which a real gag will do too, but as said, in the UK books this is not classed as a gag.

The fact that it has more than one ring does not disbar it from being a snaffle. There are many snaffles with more than one ring - the scorrier for one. 









If a bit that applies pressure to the poll (which all bits do at various levels) then ant of the western bits, the boucher, the pelham would all be classed as gags.

A bit works on several parts of the horse's head.
The bars, the lips, the tongue, the roof of the mouth, the cheeks and the poll and the lower jaw. 

As for strength of bit, and I do agree with Cheri, any horse should go in a simple snaffle but I would rather use something stronger if the need arises. 

WHen you have worked with racehorses fit to run, then there are knacks to holding them without really fighting them. Nearly all racehorses are ridden in a snaffle and caveson noseband - some might wear a X noseband but it is very few.

Out Fox Hunting a horse will take a real hold in the excitement of the chase. Horses that go well in a snaffle often need something a bit stronger rather than having to haul on them. 
My own little horse, a true cob, with a neck like a bull, is an example of theis. I can ride him in a Myler snaffle anywhere but out hunting he is like a tank and will set his neck and jaw and just go. I ride him in a proper gag snaffle with two reins. If I need some brakes then I just use the gag rein which he respects. In the arena he is as light as a fairy and very supple but with hounds screaming in front of him then it is another horse I am riding!


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Foxhunter said:


> Regardless of what name this bit is given it is *NOT *a gag!
> It is nothing more than a multi ringed snaffle. The rings giving the option on placing more poll pressure depending on where the reins are placed.
> 
> 
> ...


Maybe terminology is different in different countries. In the USA any leverage bit is a curb, doesn't matter what the chin strap is made out of.


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## minstrel (Mar 20, 2012)

Foxhunter said:


> Cherie - we will have to disagree! In any of the UK loriner (bit makers) books a gag has the leverage of cheek pieces. The idea of it is to make the horse rase its head.
> 
> The multi ring snaffle acts on poll pressure, which a real gag will do too, but as said, *in the UK books this is not classed as a gag.
> 
> ...


*

Sorry to disagree, but I'm from the UK too and I was always taught that this is a gag bit - properly known as a Dutch gag but known colloquially here as a bubble bit. It is supposed to be ridden, like all leverage bits, with two sets of reins, one on the snaffle ring and one on one of the lower rings, but it rarely gets used like that now (in the same way a Cheltenham gag, like you describe with the cheekpieces through the snaffle, is supposed to ridden with two reins). It's designed to have two different actions on the two reins, like a pelham. It can be used like a snaffle when the rein is not he snaffle ring, but it isn;t a multi-ringed snaffle - snaffles don;t have leverage.

I understand your point about hanging snaffles having a degree of leverage, but the rein is directly attached to the mouthpiece, the leverage is above the bit rather than below it, which is what separate snaffles from leverage bits.

All leverage bits, I was taught, are either gags or curbs - if it has leverage, and action on the poll, but doesn't have curb action, like a weymouth, kimblewick or pelham, then it is a type of gag.*


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Foxhunter said:


> Cherie - we will have to disagree! In any of the UK loriner (bit makers) books a gag has the leverage of cheek pieces. The idea of it is to make the horse rase its head.
> 
> The multi ring snaffle acts on poll pressure, which a real gag will do too, but as said, in the UK books this is not classed as a gag.
> 
> ...


Responded in bold...


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## KeroKero (Jul 5, 2011)

minstrel said:


> It is supposed to be ridden, like all leverage bits, with two sets of reins, one on the snaffle ring and one on one of the lower rings, but it rarely gets used like that now (in the same way a Cheltenham gag, like you describe with the cheekpieces through the snaffle, is supposed to ridden with two reins). It's designed to have two different actions on the two reins, like a pelham. It can be used like a snaffle when the rein is not he snaffle ring, but it isn;t a multi-ringed snaffle - snaffles don;t have leverage.


Well that would be the first I've heard of that - I went to find images of people using two reins and there is hardly any. I did find a couple, and I think it makes sense. None of my rein sets match ahaha I think I may end up making my own rope reins for this one, so that I can have two sets, but have them tied at the center point to help me keep it tidy. It would be way lighter than having two leather sets anyway. Thanks for the advice!


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