# What color and pattern are these foals?



## cmarie (Dec 19, 2011)

Ok you color and pattern experts out there can you please help me determine the color and pattern of these foals for APHA registration. The dark filly is out of a minimal white blue roan overo mare she has one belly spot that is barely legal, and a black and white tobiano stallion. The dun colt is out of a Grulla tovero, and the same black and white stallion. My questions are will the dark filly be black or will she be considered a roan, or some other color, I am pretty sure the color pattern would be considered A tovero for registration.
The dun colt is getting darker on the face now so will he stay the dun color or will he shed out Grulla and is his pattern tobiano or tovero. Pictures of the foals and the parents. Thank you for your help.


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

The colt on the left is a Bay Dun Tovero. He's not going to turn grulla.

The other one, well, it may be a blue roan? I don't think you'll be able to tell until she start's shedding. And she is also Tovero.


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## cmarie (Dec 19, 2011)

Ok can you tell me how you got a bay dun for the colt, he's pretty tan except for his face, is it the black mane, his tail is black and tan.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Check and see if they are using Tovero anymore. I've been told that they are now just using the most predominant trait, i.e. tobiano or overo, not Tovero to show both. 

I'd call the one colt a bay also, but I'm not real familiar with grullo so really can't say about that.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Bay dun isn't possible from two black parents... (grulla is black + dun) So unless there was some fence jumping by someone the only options for that foal are grulla or black. (ETA or red, and he is _not_ red based).

Both would be registered as Tovero (stupid, stupid word)


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## cmarie (Dec 19, 2011)

Do you think it's possible that he will darken when he sheds out, his face is getting darker.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

I agree with ND. No way can baby be bay dun. I actually do think he is grullo (remember, grulla for girls, grullo for boys). I also will add that I think both of them have frame - their face white is trying to spread above their eyes, which always rings frame bells for me. The colt's face white is so top heavy that I am fairly certain that he has frame. The filly's is less so, but when you take her face white into account and look at the way the colour is trying to "stop" the white from being on her legs by cutting it off from the body white, it just adds up to frame IME.


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

I said bay dun, because he looks like bay dun to me. But NDAppy and Chiilaa are completely right that he cannot be bay dun unless the mare was exposed to some other stallion at some point. aa/aa + aa/aa always equals aa/aa = black.

This is why you should never look at a horse and just guess the color. ;-) You have to look at the genetics. LoL. 

BTW, I hope he gets his father's front legs. Mom's look very weird in that picture. (I hope it's just the picture, LoL)


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## cmarie (Dec 19, 2011)

Thanks for the info, I always learn alot from you ladies.
The only possible fence jumper is also black and white, but he is an Icelandic, and the colt has no Icelandic traits that I can see, the cross bred foals are stockier, have thicker bones in their legs, have much fuller mane and tails and have thick coats. 
As far as the mares legs, the picture was taken as a 2 yr old, she was pretty gangly then, my other computer crashed and it has most of my pictures on it, slowly building up my pictures again.


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

Have both the sire and dam been color tested to confirm they are actually black? There are a number of colors that can look an awful lot like black but not actually be it  Liver chestnut and seal bay (brown) are quite commonly mistaken for black, both of which could produce a bay-based baby.


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## Valkyrie1977 (Jun 20, 2012)

*? Tovero vs Tobiano*

I'd be curious to see if these foals actually carry an overo gene, making them toveros. Neither has unusual white on their heads, they both have white crossing the midline of their backs, and have white legs (all tobiano traits). 
If they are toveros, they'll be fun at the pinto shows, as they can choose which color class they compete in. My tovero mare cleaned up in the overo color classes (there were toooooooooo many good tobianos entered to compete again in their class.....lol)


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Valkyrie1977 said:


> I'd be curious to see if these foals actually carry an overo gene, making them toveros. Neither has unusual white on their heads, they both have white crossing the midline of their backs, and have white legs (all tobiano traits).
> If they are toveros, they'll be fun at the pinto shows, as they can choose which color class they compete in. My tovero mare cleaned up in the overo color classes (there were toooooooooo many good tobianos entered to compete again in their class.....lol)


They have to have some other gene aside from tobiano. Tobiano does not cause face white at all.


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## Valkyrie1977 (Jun 20, 2012)

Hmm...found these on APHA...
The APHA defines a tobiano: 
Head markings are like those of a solid-colored horse--solid, or with a blaze, strip, star or snip or a combination of those markings. 
And a tovero as having: 
Dark pigmentation around the ears, which may expand to cover the forehead and/or eyes. 
One or both eyes blue. 
Dark pigmentation around the mouth, which may extend up the sides of the face and form spots.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

The APHA also doesn't differentiate between the three "overo" genes even though they are different in presentation. They are decades behind any current research when it comes to colour. Using them as your only source of information is going to keep you decades behind too. 

ALL white markings on a horse are caused by one of the white pattern genes. Tobiano causes leg white when present. It does not cause face white. Face white can be caused by sabino, splash or frame.


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## Valkyrie1977 (Jun 20, 2012)

So you would argue that ANY horse with white on its face is a carrier for overo genes? I'm curious if then you would reclassify every thoroughbreds, arabians, gaited breeds, drafts, etc with white markings on its face as pintos as well? If so, then there are very few true tobianos in the world as they would all be toveros.
As I try to base what I know on the most recent published information I can find through reliable sources, I would love to see the links to the research you are referencing to bring myself into the current century.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Valkyrie1977 said:


> So you would argue that ANY horse with white on its face is a carrier for overo genes? I'm curious if then you would reclassify every thoroughbreds, arabians, gaited breeds, drafts, etc with white markings on its face as pintos as well? If so, then there are very few true tobianos in the world as they would all be toveros.
> As I try to base what I know on the most recent published information I can find through reliable sources, I would love to see the links to the research you are referencing to bring myself into the current century.


Now you are headed to where I am at. No, I would not describe them as pintos. But I would indeed say that they are whatever colour and their white gene type too. Many TBs are splash or sabino. They also have frame in the TB gene pool. Arabians definitely have sabino, and probably have splash too. These genes are causing the white markings. 

Yes! Very few tobianos do not carry another white pattern. This is why it is so important to test any horse from any breed that can carry frame. Because of the nature of frame, the way it can hide, it can be present in horses that most only see as "tobiano" and this can be potentially lethal for the resulting foals. For example, this guy is tobiano. He is also tested positive for frame.









There is a lot of good information on current papers here. Unfortunately, most papers are published and either need to be purchased or viewed from some sort of institutional view - I can access some of them through my university.

Scientific Articles Used as Reference for Horse Color Genetics | Equine Color Genetics


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## Valkyrie1977 (Jun 20, 2012)

*Don't you hate it when...*

Ok, so further investigation on my part shows I am wrong. I found several articles talking about the sabino1 gene. Sabino patterning is visually recognized by roaning at the edges of white markings, belly spots, irregular face markings, especially white extending past the eyes or onto the chin, white above the knees or hocks, and "splash" or "lacy" marks anywhere on the body, but particularly on the belly. Some sabinos have patches of roan patterning on part of the body, especially the barrel and flanks. Some sabinos may have a dark leg or two, but many have four white legs.

I bow to your greater knowledge, Chiilaa!


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Don't bow. It's embarrassing  

I am just here to educate. I don't feel like I know everything, I just like to share what I do know


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## spurstop (Mar 22, 2012)

They are both Tobianos.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Same here, Chiilaa tends to have more patience than I do most days. :rofl:


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## cmarie (Dec 19, 2011)

The sire has been tested before I got him he is black, the dam hasn't been tested yet. There is no mistake that the sire not black, he is that true black color year round, does not sun bleach out.


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