# Hardest decision of my life):



## TwoHeartsOneBond (Apr 10, 2010)

So my mare Raekja (same horse from "what a day. My horse got raped by her son!") got bred by her son. For full story read ad mentioned above. So I had the vet out today and she put my mare on anti-biotics (her vuvla is torn pretty bad and got pussy) and so thats not the problem since she was bred...there is a chance she is pregnant. 

So with that said there is a lot I have to decide. I have 60 days to decide whether I want the possible foal. The thing is my ICELANDIC mare is from Iceland and she has pure blood lines, in turn her son who bred her has great bloodlines also. So I have to decide. 

1; keep the possible foal as it has great bloodlines and my mare is older and it could be good for me, and it would be her last foal.

2; abort the foal because all my dreams would be crushed if I kept it. 

3; wait 21 days and see if she is pregnant and let nature decide to take or not


But Im so scared. I mean if you need more details you can go ahead ask. Just help me decide!!


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## paintluver (Apr 5, 2007)

Isn't there a chance that the foal could be deformed?


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

Honestly, I would abort as soon as possible. Im sure that the foal would be just fine but another mouth to feed never seems like much until its time to feed it. I dont think I would keep the foal in that situation.


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## TwoHeartsOneBond (Apr 10, 2010)

paintluver said:


> Isn't there a chance that the foal could be deformed?



Uhm the chance is so small. Horses are bred back a lot but its bad to keep doing it because all the bad qualities in the gene pool build up and it could become deformed but since this is the first time it wouldnt be bad. < as in the foal wouldnt have 5 legs or one eye or something lol


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## draftrider (Mar 31, 2010)

Is your mare even going to give birth normally with the damage to her reproductive organs?

Is the foal registerable?


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## TwoHeartsOneBond (Apr 10, 2010)

I think she would be. The vet said she just wouldnt be sound to breed again. And I think it might be, I havent looked into it.


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## draftrider (Mar 31, 2010)

If the vet says she is not sound to breed again, I would seriously consider aborting the embryo now.

If the foal cannot be registered, abort now.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

If the mare "will not be breeding sound again" then she's likely not fit to carry and deliver this foal. Keeping it sounds like a HUGE risk. 

Then there's the issue about marketability - I know that many people would look at the bloodlines (or ask who the sire is) and turn away as soon as they found out that the foal was a whoopsie breeding of two closely-related horses. (Dam and foal.) That alone will turn a lot of people off. 

Do the right thing, abort the embryo now.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

You say that all your dreams'd be crushed if she had the foal: that's a huge statement! It's hard for me to evaluate the situation when I don't know what your dreams are, if they're truly life-long goals, if in fact there's a way to have the foal & fulfil the dreams as well (that you haven't thought of), etc.. You also say that having the foal could be good for you--? I'd list the pros & cons, since there seem to be both, & choose the weightier side. You also need to be apprised of pregnancy/delivery risks to the mare, & figure that in, as well as whether it's good for her emotional health to go through with a pregnancy at this time. Why would this have to be her last foal? Then, too, would you regret it if you had the foal aborted? Would an abortion put the mare into emotional/chemical trauma?


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

In the end, I would be far more concerned about her healthy in carrying this foal then I would be about the inbreeding - I don't advocate it, but many breeders (of different breeds) have been inbreeding like psychos for decades. A single cross is highly unlikely to cause any problems, no more so then breeding two unrelated horses. The "deformity" issue we see in humans for some reason just doesn't seem to apply to animals - generations of inbreeding are what typically cause genetic defects and diseases, but it typically takes a LOT of crossing back to produce such weakened genetic material as that.

Anyway, I would seriously discuss it with your vet. If the bloodlines are good, the foal is registerable and your mare is healthy to foal, I wouldn't personally be looking at the inbreeding issue as the main reason for aborting. However, her foaling health is paramount to everything else and if she's breeding unsound, I would be heavily concerned about her ability to carry to term and deliver safely.


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## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

Here, lets put it this way; Would you keep a baby that was by your son? 

I would not be excited at all about this "good" thing. It's messed up, if you had to sell the foal for whatever reason, no one (that has a good head on their shoulder) would buy it.

Lastly, I saw someone who was devastated by this. Now I see someone who is trying to argue that breeding a mare to her son is nothing dangerous as it's "done all of the time". 0_0 Make up your mind and geld that horse.


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## AnnaLover (Sep 27, 2009)

White Foot said:


> Here, lets put it this way; Would you keep a baby that was by your son?
> 
> I would not be excited at all about this "good" thing. It's messed up, if you had to sell the foal for whatever reason, no one (that has a good head on their shoulder) would buy it.


It's not the same as people- at all. Her mare didn't think about the fact she was being bred by her son. Horses don't think that way. It's "ok" to breed dam to son , but not sibling to sibling or (as far as I know) sire to daughter. :wink:


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

It still seriously hurts that foals chances of marketability. Like others have said, no one is going to buy a foal thats mother was bred by her son. There is a good chance that nothing will happen to the foal...he/she will be perfect in every way. People just dont think logically about that kind of thing.


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## draftrider (Mar 31, 2010)

Thats very true. I raise show rabbits and rabbits in a breed are usually extensively linebred. In fact some breeds were started with just 2 animals! Rabbit breeders know that inbreeding and linebreeding are the fastest ways to express and fix good points in a breeding line- but are also the fastest ways to degrade a line too. Linebreeding is a very useful and important tool (in the right hands!!!) that is often ridiculed as "incest" or "dirty" or "wrong" by the general public.

I would not hesitate to purchase a horse that was line bred, but if I were to purchase a horse it better be a darn good one.

Can you post photos of the mare, and the naughty stallion in question? Maybe if we could actually SEE the animals it would be easier to judge what to do.


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## AnnaLover (Sep 27, 2009)

draftrider said:


> Can you post photos of the mare, and the naughty stallion in question? Maybe if we could actually SEE the animals it would be easier to judge what to do.


I agree :wink:


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## Fifty (Jul 1, 2010)

It's like your brother being your father lol  But yeah, if I found out that a horse I was looking to buy was inbred, skip.


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## AnnaLover (Sep 27, 2009)

^^ when I thought about the whole brother/father thing.. I got way confused :shock: They would technically be your half brother because you would have different fathers.. But he would actually be your father... I really confused myself when I thought about it in my head! :lol:


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## ThinkingOfRiding (Apr 8, 2010)

I think that if the vet says your mare can carry the foal safely, go for it.


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## reining girl (Jan 30, 2009)

i wouldnt even consider keeping the foal, abort.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I personally would abort. If the mare's health is questionable, then it would be much easier to abort the fetus now than it would be to lose them both later when things go wrong or end up with an orphaned foal if the mare doesn't survive the delivery.

Yes, linebreeding is a common practice amongst horse breeders, however, it is very rarely done in so close a proximity along the family tree. More commonly, it is 2 horses with the same sire but different dams and vice versa or a stud with "thishorse" as his sire being bred to a mare with "thishorse" as her grandsire. That way, there are still at least 3 different bloodlines at play. At least that is how it is commonly done in the AQHA world, I don't know about other breeds.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

That's a personal decision and totally up to you. Like others have said, I would be more concerned about if the mare is okay to carry the pregnancy, rather than the "inbreeding" per say. 

I know it isn't quite the same thing, but I found it curious that my Fox Trotter's sire is rather, um, "linebred." 

Sun Dust E Missouri Fox Trotter

Notice Lady Anne, dam of Sun Dust E., is also his grandmother, so she was bred back to one of her grandsons to create Sun Dust E. I'm sure that was done because they were really fond of the bloodlines and wanted to concentrate them and create a breeding prospect. At least that's what I assume anyway, lol! 

So I guess I wouldn't be so quick to abort the foal as some other folks, but hey, that is a decision only you can make because it is the one you must live with. What's right for me or what's right for someone else may not be right for you. Do what it your heart you feel is correct. 

Also, I don't really buy into the whole "marketable" thing. I think horses are here to be enjoyed and make our lives richer. Not everything has to be created with marketing in mind, does it??? I guess Mustangs aren't very marketable, nor grade horses, but I sure love the ones I have and wouldn't trade them for anything. Not everything in life has to be a money maker does it? One extra horse (and probably a registerable one at that) will not break the whole equine economy. Just my opinion, I'm sure many will disagree.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

Figure out the pros and cons, But ALWAYS put the mares health first!


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

PS. I would be concerned about the vulva during foaling. I would think there would be a fair chance of it tearing again. Or maybe not? That's where the vet's advice really comes in. Does the vet think she's "good to go" or that foaling will further damage her further? I would put the mare's health first. If she's "good to go" then you have a decision to make. If there is a good chance of damaging her, then I would go ahead and abort because you don't want to damage the mare any further.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Ray MacDonald said:


> Figure out the pros and cons, But ALWAYS put the mares health first!


We were just on the same wave length! As soon as I did my first post, I thought, what does the vet think about the torn vulva and foaling?


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## purplefoal (Jun 30, 2010)

Hmm... it's certainly a tough decision. True, an inbred foal would make it's chances less likely to be sold, but I wouldn't consider it true to say that 
"nobody" would buy him/her. 

I wouldn't take a risk, though, if your mare were in serious danger.


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## PonderosaMiniatures (Oct 2, 2009)

I really dont think it should even be a conversation, Is there really a reason to keep this particular foal? Is this only one you will ever have or own? Already health could be an issue, Mare already being torn, to me this is a no brainer...

Abort, yes sad...but move on....


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## reining girl (Jan 30, 2009)

AMEN ponderosa miniatures


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## Citrus (Feb 26, 2010)

then there is the whole idea that a life is here for a reason............ wait 21 days..... that gives you time to think..... this is a choice that is not rushed....... think about who will own the foal, what purpose will it hold, how your valuable mare will hold up.......


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## DakotaLuv (Mar 21, 2009)

Please abort!!!


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## RadHenry09 (Mar 22, 2009)

Ray MacDonald said:


> Figure out the pros and cons, But ALWAYS put the mares health first!


I agree with this 100 percent!


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## TwoHeartsOneBond (Apr 10, 2010)

This would be her last baby because she is 22 years old and I dont want to breed her in her old age.

As to the vet saying she wasnt sound to breed, its only because when she tore a little flap of skin was developed and now it will scar with a little flap no big deal but she just made that comment that she could cut it off. 

And the baby would not be registerable as far as i know I didnt really ask anyone so I will research and get back to you guys on it. 

And my dreams are to compete in hunters and we have been training and I was planning to bring her to a whole bunch of things and with a baby...or being pregnant and ugh i just cant do anything.

I dont remember any other posts haha sorry guys!


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## vivache (Jun 14, 2009)

Based on ALL you've said, abort.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

22 is imo a good age to quit breeding a horse who's of average vitality; the body has a harder time with carrying a foal, getting sufficient nutrition for it, etc. Would you please tell us how the foal might be a blessing? (You said that it could be. Perhaps you were only thinking of marketability, if registerable?)

Also to consider is whether the mare enjoys the hunter discipline--is her heart with yours here?-- & whether she has the talent for it to justify an abortion. Which role best suits her: hunter or mom?


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## draftrider (Mar 31, 2010)

I can't imagine a 22 year old Icelandic mare would compete well in hunters. Could someone more educated please address this? It may be a moot point.


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## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

PonderosaMiniatures said:


> I really dont think it should even be a conversation, Is there really a reason to keep this particular foal? Is this only one you will ever have or own? Already health could be an issue, Mare already being torn, to me this is a no brainer...
> 
> Abort, yes sad...but move on....



^^ She said it best. It's unplanned, unmarketable and unwanted, and poses health risks to the mother. Three strikes you're out.


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

Abort now, while it's still a tiny little embryo. Or would you rather wait until foaling time and risk losing your mare? Personally, I'd rather have my mare than any potential baby she accidently got stuck with. Or what if something happened and you lost BOTH mare and foal? You are not prepared for a baby, you are not prepared for foaling. And furthermore, if you weren't planning on breeding BECAUSE of her age, that alone says you should abort.

Like Indy said, you've got MORE than three strikes against you.


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## Go The Distance (Mar 23, 2009)

I would abort. having a baby is ALOT of work. have you ever trained and raised a horse from scratch? i got my mare at 20 months old from an auction, and she was a gift. i honestly wouldnt have wanted her if i was at that auction. (im glad i have her now! i love my mare! though she can be a challenge and a bit of a brat lol) sometimes i wish i had a horse that was broken in and not so risky. 

Enjoy the time you have with your mare, abort the foal. please.


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## Curly_Horse_CMT (Jun 8, 2008)

I would abort the foal. If the vet said she isn't breeding sound, take the advice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## reining girl (Jan 30, 2009)

so you would rather potentialy kill your mare, to get a severaly inbreed unwanted foal.... yep, best reasons i have heard to keep a foal. just abort, its not like she is the last icelandic horse on earth my god.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

So glad you had the vet out to look at the injury and she is on antibiotics. That is great news. 




draftrider said:


> I can't imagine a 22 year old Icelandic mare would compete well in hunters. Could someone more educated please address this? It may be a moot point.


That was my thought also. But maybe she is talking about something other than the rated hunter style hunter shows. As we have discussed here many-a-times there are breed type hunters and maybe that is what the OP wants to do.




> I really dont think it should even be a conversation, Is there really a reason to keep this particular foal? Is this only one you will ever have or own? Already health could be an issue, Mare already being torn, to me this is a no brainer...
> 
> Abort, yes sad...but move on....​




​I totally agree with this.



TwoHeartsOneBond said:


> The thing is my ICELANDIC mare is from Iceland and she has pure blood lines, in turn her son who bred her has great bloodlines also.


Just because she came for Iceland does not mean she has great blood lines. It also does not mean she is a quality animal (not saying she is not, have not seen her). It also does not even slightly imply that her son also has great blood lines. Even if she does have great blood lines (and great conformation, etc) it does not mean the other half of her son has even similar quality lines. 


I think the kindest thing you can do for your mare is to abort this possible pregnancy.


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

Do you really want to risk your mare's welfare over an "OOPS" inbred foal? Especially since you want to compete with your mare without having to worry about foals and foaling and torn vulvas and the age your mare is to be bred? It doesn't seem logical to me. Yes, it might be a good foal with good bloodlines and wantability, but you would most likely end up selling the foal anyway to be trained properly and to spend less money on feed. Vet bills alone from her injury could quite possible top out the money you'd get in return from a buyer. Foals are going for cheap nowadays because everyone just wants a trained horse.

I know it's hard to think about killing a foal, but think about it this way: If you could, would you reverse everything that's happened and go back to before your mare's colt bred and injured her? There would be no foal then either.

Considering the circumstances, I say abort.


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

I think one very important thing was missed a bit here. In your initial post, when this first happened you stressed very plainly that you ABSOLUTELY DID NOT want a foal. My guess is that now you're caught up in the "aw, it'll be so cute and huggable" that you are letting it sway you from the bigger picture that you never wanted the foal in the first place. With everything else going against you, better to abort.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Yep, I'm on the, 'give the mare a shot, she'll sweat a little, and it'll all be over' bandwagon.

No need to bring an oops, inbred foal into the world and risk your mare's life in the process.


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

equiniphile said:


> I know it's hard to think about killing a foal


It is not killing a foal. A foal is a foal when it's born. Before that, it's an embryo and a fetus. This is removing an embryo. OP, what's the latest?


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## Sissimut-icehestar (Jan 20, 2008)

The stallion, what quality is he? I don't know about over there but here generally if the stallion is not a 1. prize horse or very likely to become one people don't breed to it because the foal won't be marketable. 

However I don't see any reason why the potential foal couldn't be registered with WorldFengur.

Also, what a name! Rækja! I'm guessing she's either a red dun or chestnut?


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

I don't buy the argument that it's not really a foal in the womb. It's a horse baby in the womb just like it's a human baby in a human womb. The Lord causes conception in both cases. I'd be in prayer over this decision, therefore.


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## Eliz (Jun 16, 2010)

Oh, great. This is turning into an "abortion is right/wrong!" thread!

LOL but I would abort it. Its the best option for the mare (who has a torn vulva & is not approved by the vet to breed), you (who doesn't want a foal), and the foal (who has little chance of a great life unless you keep him).

Just, do the right thing, okay?


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## arasumi (Jun 7, 2010)

Besides what has been said about inbreeding, I totally agree with Northern in that it would be best if you clarify what you want, it sound like you may be confused and making a list of pros and cons of keeping the pregnancy might be usefull to you.
I hope your mare recovers soon.


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## Deerly (Apr 18, 2010)

> 2; abort the foal because all my dreams would be crushed if I kept it.


The world has enough lovely horses - I wouldn't put her through that and risk having negative side effects of inbreeding just because she's got nice bloodlines. 


​


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## draftrider (Mar 31, 2010)

Looks like another thread that the OP has run off.


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

draftrider said:


> Looks like another thread that the OP has run off.


Perhaps she'll show up in 11 months posting pictures of her new inbred foal?


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

It amazes me how so many people can say abort the foal, but if a human is placed in this same situation and choose abortion they all freak and tell you your going to hell or something.

And before you jump on me, I'm not stating my opinion on either subjects. I just came from another Abortion topic so tis fresh in my mind.

I think you should choose what _you want, _and take the mare's health into consideration. If there is a large chance that the mare will be in danger or the foal will be, abort it. If there is a much stronger chance the foal will be healthy, keep it.


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## speedy da fish (May 7, 2009)

i would personally abort the foal  i know it is sad and hard to do but that is my honest opinion. not just because it is her sons foal, but the damage done to her will be made worse when she gives birth.
your decision, we cant make it for you remember


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

SorrelHorse said:


> It amazes me how so many people can say abort the foal, but if a human is placed in this same situation and choose abortion they all freak and tell you your going to hell or something.


There is a huge difference, the main one being humans have the benefit of rational thought. We can decide to do or not do what causes pregnancy. We can control our urges. We can take precautions to prevent pregnancy if we choose to do things that cause it.

Animals do not have this ability and they are simply working on instinct. 


You can not compare apples to a pricker bush.


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## HowClever (Feb 16, 2010)

I am another who fails to see how this is a tough decision.

The mare's vulva is torn, foaling would be painful and dangerous.

She's 22. While it is not impossible for her to have a healthy pregnancy, there are certainly more risk factors.

I won't go in to the in-breeding thing as I don't feel that is the most important issue. The chances of something going very wrong for your mare are quite high. 

If it was me, I would have given her the shot the second I thought she might have been pregnant.


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## draftrider (Mar 31, 2010)

SorrelHorse said:


> It amazes me how so many people can say abort the foal, but if a human is placed in this same situation and choose abortion they all freak and tell you your going to hell or something.
> 
> .


Having an abortion is a deeply personal decision. It is an incredibly difficult decision. I have the utmost of respect for anyone that is faced with it and choses to abort a fetus. I do believe it is each woman's right to chose to have a child or not. 

I would hazard to guess if your mare could choose, she would not have a baby. 

At the same token, it is our responsibility as animal owners to prevent unwanted pregnancy. This, is an unwanted, unplanned pregnancy, and as such it should be terminated, should the mare be in foal. I sincerely hope she is NOT pregnant. That would solve everything. Sure, it is a life, but at the same time, what kind of life? And the mare's health must be placed first and foremost.


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## ThinkingOfRiding (Apr 8, 2010)

Sorrelhorse- I agree 100%.


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## TheCountryLife (Jul 8, 2010)

If having the foal will cause upset and further injury to your mare then there should be no hesitation in aborting. As there has already been damage incurred which is now healing, giving birth may cause irrepairable damage or problems in the long term health of your horse. 

I would wait for the results to whether she is pregnant and if so then abort - if not then help your horse to make a full recovery and steps should be made to ensure this never happens again by having the stallion gelded. They should never have had the opportunity to be near eachother when one is a stallion and the other is in season. 

I hope it all works out in the end for you and you make the right decision but put the health and best option for your mare at the fore front of the decision.


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## whiskeynoo (Mar 17, 2010)

i would say abort the foal. 
the mare is 22 and has a torn vulva. theres a high chance of her not providing enough for the foal. i knew of a horse about 22 or 23 that had a foal and she couldn't provide enough milk for the foal because she was too busy trying to look after herself, and the foal eventually died. also it will most likely cause more damage than good giving birth to this foal.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

What if the mare is pregnant & the foal is a one-in-a-billion horse that could start a new breed, like Justin Morgan's horse, who, judging be his pedigree, shouldn't have been anything special?

It's our duty to control animal population in domesticity by spaying/neutering, but abortion is after the Lord has created a new life in the womb.

Wild horses get pregnant, & either give birth to a healthy foal or not, yet the survival of the fittest/instinct takes care of everything after the birth--no instinct on horses' parts to abort.

How contrary to the natural G-d-given instincts of horses are the ways of many humans!


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

^The vet said this mare wasn't healthy to breed. Would you honestly risk the mare just because the foal is there?

Chances are this foal won't be a one in billion foal. I'm also on the side of aborting the foal since the vet has said she isn't fit to breed. Do what's best for your mare.


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## Charis (Jul 6, 2010)

Northern said:


> What if the mare is pregnant & the foal is a one-in-a-billion horse that could start a new breed, like Justin Morgan's horse, who, judging be his pedigree, shouldn't have been anything special?
> 
> It's our duty to control animal population in domesticity by spaying/neutering, but abortion is after the Lord has created a new life in the womb.
> 
> ...


Excuse my interruption - I lurk and just post when I have a strong opinion :lol:
This is not a debate about human rights, this is a thread about a girl with an old mare that might not even be fit to carry a foal to term and deliver without complication. If you want to turn it into a human argument, then I would have to remind you that certain women are urged to terminate pregnancy if they are in a certain risk group. Please, let's not even get into the whole "when is life created?" question. It's an argument that will never be won, and will only serve to fray peoples' nerves. As for your other argument, it's an Icelandic; it's already part of an established breed, no special new breed is going to come about because of this foal.


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

^^ yes, THIS! Sure, the OP could just let nature take it's course and end up without foal OR mare, left with no horse at all because a bad BO was negligent, and then she couldn't make up her mind. But I guess that would be okay, huh? Stop turning this into a human rights issue. It isn't. being a horse owner means making those tough decisions about what is best for the horse, and in this case it's a simple answer. An UNWANTED foal, inbred, from a mare that is older and NOT breeding sound. It doesn't get much simpler than that.


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## Gidget (Jan 19, 2010)

I would abort if she is pregnant. Since her son raped her there is a possibility of the foal having complications(kinda like if the same family of cats or dogs breed and they turn out to have more toes,one eye,or they die). Also if your dreams would be crushed why are you wanting to possibly keep the baby? You can do as you please but IMHO I dont think it is wise.


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

Actually Gidget there is a very low chance of the foal being deformed/wierd/having complications because of the son/mother thing. 

I would abort just because it's an unwanted, unplanned foal that there are enough of. And the mare is 22, if she hasn't been bred consistently she is at a very, very high risk of foaling complications.


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## Gidget (Jan 19, 2010)

kassierae said:


> Actually Gidget there is a very low chance of the foal being deformed/wierd/having complications because of the son/mother thing.
> 
> I would abort just because it's an unwanted, unplanned foal that there are enough of. And the mare is 22, if she hasn't been bred consistently she is at a very, very high risk of foaling complications.


 
Thanks for letting me know.



I did not read all the post by everyone but she is 22? I would not breed my horse after the age of 15 unless she was a broodmare but I don't like the fact that people breed mares consistently.


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

An older mare that has been bred consistently will generally have less complications than one that hasn't.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

How did the story become that the mare's unsound to breed?:



TwoHeartsOneBond said:


> I think she would be. The vet said she just wouldnt be sound to breed* again*. And I think it might be, I havent looked into it.





TwoHeartsOneBond said:


> .As to the vet saying she wasnt sound to breed, its only because when she tore a little flap of skin was developed and now it will scar with a little flap* no big deal* but she just made that comment that she could cut it off.
> 
> How did OP's dream for this 22-yr old Icelandic get validated?:
> 
> And my dreams are to *compete in hunters* and we have been training and I was planning to bring her to a whole bunch of things and with a baby...or being pregnant and ugh i just cant do anything.


Charis, I didn't hijack topic to discussion of human abortion; let the reader decide.

I know the foal will technically be pure Icelandic, but technically, Figure was expected to be just a nice horse of _mixed_ breeding. "No special breed is going to come about because of this foal" surely was the assumption of those present for the arrival of Figure!

Then, too, is the possibility that the foal will be true to type, yet an outstanding specimen who serves the breed with his prepotency.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

^

For anyone who isn't religious, your argument is completely and entirely moot. Hence the issue with trying to argue with religion as your point. It's not a logical and widely held belief by the masses, and so anyone who doesn't believe doesn't have any cause to listen to your sentiments. 

And I'm fairly certain nobody is going to hell for aborting a baby horse anyway.


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

Um, I hate to argue, but there can be complications of a mother son breeding in horses as in dogs. Genetic faults will be doubled up on and can create birth defects, internal organs being "damaged", cleft palets, and a multitude of issues with that close of a breeding. Sure, sometimes you can get a great thing, but the chances are much more likely to get a mediocre or less foal that can have medical issues.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

MM & the rest who took offense at my posts: the question of morality must necessarily enter into discussion of even horse abortion, imo. I already know many disagree. 

OP asked for whatever opinions/considerations we have on the subject, so I've done nothing wrong by posting mine.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Except it makes zero sense. The lord actually APPROVES of killing animals, and for ridiculously selfish reasons such as sacrifice in his name. If there is no moral dilemma in killing a horse, there is no moral dilemma in killing a horse fetus. Regardless if it's considered a life or not, animals are not considered to have souls as per YOUR religion.

Killing people is supposed to be bad, unless of course you do it in HIS name - then it's acceptable.


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## kindredspirit (Jul 9, 2010)

If I were in the situation, I'd abort...


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## myhorsesonador (Jun 21, 2009)

Northern said:


> I don't buy the argument that it's not really a foal in the womb. It's a horse baby in the womb just like it's a human baby in a human womb. The Lord causes conception in both cases. I'd be in prayer over this decision, therefore.


Finaly some on shares the same views as I do! Yes it was an oops but its still a living creature. Please dont kill the baby if momma can saifly deliver.


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

Northern, sorry, but your posts just make me laugh.

I hardly see how fair or right it would be to the mare to have a baby that will more than likely cause problems for the mare, as well as the baby. You are putting humam emotions in the horse. The horse doesn't care, know, or even comprehend that it's no longer pregnant. It just isn't anymore.

It's been concluded that the mare is unfit to carry to term because she is 22 years old, hasn't had a baby in a few years, nor had a ton of babies, AND her VULVA was TORN. Now what if the scar tissue grows back in such a way that the mare simply cannot get the baby out? You know you only have a small amount of time from the time the water breaks to the time the foal HAS to be born, right? Before chances of survival [for mare AND foal] are made incredibly smaller? Or what if the foaling process tears her vulva again, and the mare bleeds to death because they can't get a vet out in time?

You're fighting for the "life" of a fetus that has a higher chance of being sickly or stillborn than the average foal, even though it means the possible death of the mare, AND the fetus. You're willing to sacrifice two lives for one, even though that one your trying to "save" could also die? I'd prefer one "death" over two, wouldn't you?


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## dressagexlee (Dec 15, 2009)

It does not matter if the mare is predicted to be breeding sound. What matters is what will change in the mare's life and the people associated with it for the negative, and, ultimately, what the foal's quality of life would be like if born. The original poster sounds young, and probably has never trained a horse from foal before, and, essentially, a foal on the ground is like having your own child - it's a huge responsibility that requires massive amounts of time and precise care. She also specifically says that "her dreams will be crushed" if the mare has a foal.
And honestly, human moral and religious views mean nothing to a horse. Horses do not have a sense of morality or spirituality. However, quality of life as influenced by us means everything to them - rather, determines how content, satisfied, and "successful" they are. An unwanted foal would likely have a stressful few years at least, if not a whole life, in the situation that the horse becomes difficult to work with or ends up on the road to abandonment.

And what if the mare ends up dying? Are the arguements of "if she can save the foal, she should," or "the Lord's divine creation must be given a chance," really creditable in the end if a _girl loses her best friend_? 
The OP doesn't want a foal, but she feels confused about the situation. Making her feel guilty of taking a life against "His" will only confuses her more and adds further burden to her. She shouldn't be made to feel that way.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

MM, what do you think my religion is? I don't believe that I've shared that on this forum. FYI, my belief is NOT that animals have no souls!

Plus you're mixing me up with a "god" who, in your opinion is selfish as regards animal sacrifice, & says that it's bad to kill people unless it's in his name, so therefore aborting this foal is the way to go--???


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## Hukassa (Jun 10, 2010)

Abort the foal, many people have made strong points but the negative far out ways the positive.


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## RioPony (Jul 12, 2010)

Wow, that is a hard decision. If it was me I would probably wait. I am highly against the abortion of any species. But I would put the mare's health first though. If it will be hard or risky for her to deliver then abort, if not, I would wait and see. 
So what if it's a close cross? Breeder's have done it for years, like those above me have mentioned. You may not be able to make a fortune off of it but I'm sure some little girl who doesn't care about lineage would love to give a reasonably priced pony a good home. You know? Hope I helped a little. Keep us updated!

- Brie.


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## speedy da fish (May 7, 2009)

wow didnt know she was 22, I must of missed that. I think it is better to abort one horse, rather than risking the life of two horses.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

Stop with the spiritual beliefs! That has nothing to do with anything! Its the MARES HEALTH! Can she safely have the foal? maybe but probably not, there are just to much risks for the mare! The "foal" isnt a foal.... it was a zygote and now an embryo not a foal! and Im pretty **** sure there are worse things in the world then abortioning an unwanted and potentially dangerous pregnancy!


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Ray MacDonald said:


> Stop with the spiritual beliefs! That has nothing to do with anything! Once again, we who have spiritual beliefs/considerations about horse abortion have a right to post them here.The "foal" isnt a foal.... it was a zygote and now an embryo not a foal! Look who's laying out a belief & demanding that we all buy it!QUOTE]


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

So what you're saying is that you are so adamantly against horse abortion that the life of the mare is irrelevant?


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

apachiedragon said:


> So what you're saying is that you are so adamantly against horse abortion that the life of the mare is irrelevant?


Well yes, because then it'll be 'God's will' if the mare and foal die during labor. :roll:

Doesn't matter that it can be prevented by either a shot from the vet or pinching the embryo. 

Since in some folks' eyes animals and people are apparently the same, isn't incest also a horrible sin? Since the mare and her son engaged in such a heinous act, shouldn't they be put to death? Surely they're damned forever to hell for committing it! :evil:

See how ridiculous anthropomorphizing can get?

We're not talking about humans here, we're talking about _animals_. If the mare was in season and let her son breed her, they're both completely blameless since animals do not comprehend 'right' or 'wrong', nor are they bound by the same moral code as humanity.

We are stewards of what God has given us. If we wish to be considered good stewards, we have to care for the animals properly and take responsibility for their health and wellbeing. Letting a mare carry a foal to term that may put her life in danger is _not_ being a good steward, and that itself is a sin in the eyes of God.

If we can protect and keep her safe by terminating the pregnancy, the real sin is in not doing so.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

Wow. Just wow. I can't comprehend that anyone would think it's morally wrong to abort an animal, especially when 1) the mother's life is in danger and 2) there are... oh, let's see... HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of unwanted horses out there. If you want to talk morality, how about the moral responsibility you have to the mare?


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

OP, I know it's hard. I know that. But why would you risk the health and safety of your mare just because you don't want to abort a would-be foal?


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

ponyboy- Thank you!! 

All Im saying is think of the mare first! And I wasn't put in my own beliefs, THAT was biology! (Im a top Biology student  )


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## Equus_girl (Jan 25, 2009)

In the case of an animal I don't believe it is wrong to abort if necessary for the mare's health. However if I had a mare that got pregnant without me wanting her bred but, she could safely deliver the foal I would most likely do it. In the OP's mare's case it sounds like the safest and logical thing to do would be to abort. However it is still her choice and she has to decide - I wish her all the very best which ever decision she makes.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

I very carefully refrained from_ telling_ the OPwhat to do; my mission here is to remind OP that* not everyone* here prides himself on knowing all that there is to know on the subject, in knowing of the physical development of the foetus only, &* not* *everyone* here scoffs at the idea that there's a _ spirit essence_ in horses, & *not everyone* here scoffs at the idea that it is God Who opens the womb!

Due to these considerations, our suggestion to be prayerful in making this decision remains.

*Again,* it's perfectly right, & I hope helpful, for myself & others to have brought up these considerations for the OP.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

It's a personal decision, we've all given our opinions, and maybe it's time to leave it at that.

You know what's really funny, I am "pro choice" when it comes to humans, but somehow I would have a really, really hard time aborting a foal. I don't know why I feel that way, maybe because horses are my life's passion. But I can understand how some wouldn't want to abort the foal, and at the same time I know aborting the foal would probably be the right decision. I guess one side is logic, and one side emotion. Logic tells me aborting is safer for the mare. Emotion says let the little guy live! :?


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

The OP has clearly abandoned the thread because of the recourse some of us took. Or maybe she just wanted to hear us say "keep the foal" a million times over and was dissapointed. Either way, I don't think our advice is doing much right now. Let her decide what she may, and leave it at that.


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

Northern, no one said it was "wrong" of you to post your beliefs. We're just saying it's rather ridiculous when put to the situation at hand.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Nothern, since you feel animals are equals I sure hope you do not kill any of them for any reason. No fly sprays, no stepping on ants, etc. Isn't killing a sin?

Equiniphile, The OP not posting anymore probably has more to do with the thread not going in the direction they expected it to than anything else. It is not an uncommon occurrence with this OP.


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## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

Frankly if you want to anthropomorphise why not go both ways.

I've always said although I am pro-choice, I couldn't go through an abortion myself. However there is an exception to that - if I was raped by my brother or father and it resulted in pregnancy, you'd better believe I'd be running for planned parenthood in a heartbeat.

I would and have aborted dogs before who should not have been bred. I have assisted in spaying cats that were in early pregnancy states. Part of daily life when working for a large scale vet clinic. It only takes a handful of occasions when you have to put down healthy, one year old happy dogs who have done nothing wrong other than their owners don't want them once they pass the cute puppy stage, to decide, of course, it would have been better if someone had aborted the pups before they came to be. To condemn an animal to a life of pain, suffering, and neglect, under the guise of "saving" it, is to me a far, far crueler decision to make.

So, out of curiousity Northern, based on your belief that killing is wrong, if your horse decided to get spooked and try to jump the fence, gutted itself on the way over and broke both front legs on the landing - would you sit there and watch her suffer and die slowly rather than humanely euthanize? Please understand I am not attacking your beliefs, nor trying to convert you. I am just trying to understand how one wrestles with navigating such black and white beliefs in a very "gray area" world.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Please quit jumping to conclusions; my posts say what they mean & mean only what they say. You're free to re-read.


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## TwoHeartsOneBond (Apr 10, 2010)

Okay sorry guys i have been really busy with work and Raekja. *Sigh*, everything is all dramatic in this thread): 
Anyways...I didnt read all the posts (): sorry) got to page 6 and decided I should reply 

Yes Raekja is chestnut
And I dont really care what people breed to THEIR horses so in my opinion breed your horse to its grandfather or anything you want BUT I DONT WANT A FOAL.


BUT MY FINAL DECISION IS TO ABORT THE FOAL. SO *wipes sweat off forehead* now i dont have to worry, i just have to wait for her to get out of heat and then its the end

thanks for all the posts you guys are the best


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I suppose it's best a baby doesn't end up where it's not wanted. :-(

Do pregnant mares still show themselves in heat? (Totally curious, honest question. I don't know much about mares and pregnancy. Just went through my first ever mare/foal situation myself).


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Glad to hear it, I think you made the right choice.


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## TwoHeartsOneBond (Apr 10, 2010)

I read them all now

Wow guys I didnt run away, Im just not a computer person. I would rather be reading a book or with my horse, then typing away on some website Sorry you feel that I ran away): Makes me sad *twinkle in eye*

But really I am only 15 so I cant really be pro-choice but I am. Im not going to go all into it

But I do believe that animals deserve the same chance as humans but her health is my MAIN concern and for her it would be better for her to not have a foal.

But for some reason the little beast is still in heat *gets annoyed thinking about it* its been foreverrrr for me): haha so Im waiting for her to finish that. 

MY mom is extremely mad that I want to abort): she keeps yelling at me about. 
I wish she wouldnt yell at me.

I think some horses still show themselves in "heat" when they are pregnant when they really arent. I have read that in breeding books


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## draftrider (Mar 31, 2010)

If she is still showing signs of heat, she probably isn't pregnant. Can your vet check her yet?


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## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

draftrider said:


> If she is still showing signs of heat, she probably isn't pregnant. Can your vet check her yet?


Yes, this. I was under the impression (please correct me if I am wrong) that conception will bring a mare out of heat sooner.


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

I also think you made the right decision. Good on you. =]

I'm sure a horse can still go through a heat in the early stages of pregnancy, I just don't imagine it's very common.


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## CheyAut (Nov 26, 2008)

What signs of being in heat are you seeing? Mares are only in season for about a week (other than transitional seasons but this is not when those occure), and this has been going on a long time... 

Mares ovulate at the end of their season cycle. Sounds like your mare isn't pregnant, but of course a vet is the only one to say for sure. It's been long enough now an ultrasound will show a pregnancy.


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## draftrider (Mar 31, 2010)

If she is showing signs of heat this long she needs an ultrasound anyway to check for a cystic ovary.


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