# Teaching a Horse To Have A Curved Neck



## DreamerR (Dec 17, 2017)

Emily, the mare I ride at the private bar, knows how to do a curved really pretty neck if you tighten up the reins and jiggle them. I was wondering how hard it would be to teach Justice to one. I really like how it looks. I was also wondering if anyone knows any methods to teach a horse how to do the curved neck. I was also wondering if it is allowed in hunter or equitation classes. I don't know exactly what it is called but i will put Emilys picture down below. Thank you!


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

Ummm....you may like the look but please _*don't*_ intentionally teach it to Justice.


It is done by a horse as evasion and not something you want to teach as a trick...
When you see a horse with their face and neck arched in this manner they are escaping the touch/feel of the rider the best way they can...
Don't teach this to Justice and if he starts doing it on his own then look quickly to what you are doing to him to cause this reaction.


There are times a horse will reach down and into a bit similar to this, but you are not at the training levels to understand why and how to achieve this without possibly harming the horse...
It is different though than what you are describing and what it actually looks like...

:runninghorse2:...
_jmo..._


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

That's not a good thing to teach. It doesn't teach them how to accept contact and will hinder ans future efforts since now they think touching face = Duck behind contact. 

I also want to point out you ate using a Pelham with a single rein on the curb in that photo. That is a lot of pressure your putting on that mares mouth without release. Not very nice.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Overflexion from aggressive hold is not pretty. And having the reins down in the lower ring gives it a curb effect and considering how her mouth is gaping says overly harsh. Not nice at all. You want a smooth even arch from poll to wither and a vertical profile. This does not speak well of your trainers and would get you taken off the horse and taken to task here


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

That doesn't look like a happy horse face right there! Forget about what looks good, forget about what your friends think is cool, focus on what FEELS good for you and the horse. As explained you can just tell by her expression that she's not doing that because she wants to.... her body language isn't saying "my rider has gentle hands and looks after my mouth". You have a lot to learn, we all do, but in the mean time look carefully at your pony and see the message she's trying to tell you. Is she saying "I'm comfortable, teach me more" or "ouch, please, give me a break!" For what it's worth I'm an adult rider and maybe only a little more experienced than you... I would be VERY careful with a bit like that in my hands. I don't feel qualified or comfortable enough to be in charge of any strong bits. 

Continue to let us know how things go and please don't be upset if we sometimes criticise things. All of us have to learn sometimes and by making mistakes. Try to see the lesson to be learned from the amazing and experienced horsemen and women here  <3


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## DreamerR (Dec 17, 2017)

Kalraii said:


> Continue to let us know how things go and please don't be upset if we sometimes criticise things. All of us have to learn sometimes and by making mistakes. Try to see the lesson to be learned from the amazing and experienced horsemen and women here  <3


I'm glad people are calling out her bit! Thats part of the problem with why riders grow up with bad habits and doing things that really hurt horses. I am actually really happy that people are telling me about whats wrong with it, because of course my trainer has taught me that her bit is perfectly normal and that there is nothing wrong with the pelham. The neck curve and bits I used are just what I have been taught to use and enable. I can't change her bit, but at least now I know that I need to ride with softer hands and provide enough slack so that if she needs to she can relieve the pressure. Thanks guys!!!


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

Bits are complicated.... and it's not even so much the bit as HOW we use them is all. Many mistakes that people make are because they don't know better. But you are on here... wanting to become better. The fact you're willing to ask advice and be open is one in a million. It isn't as simple black and white to say "pelhams are evil" or that curved necks are awful either. Not necessarily... but now you know that this type of bit CAN cause more pressure than a simple snaffle. So you should be extra careful with it -all bits really - is all. You can try look up different disciplines and look carefully at the horse - see if you can spot the ones that have happy mouths or maybe the ones that are saying "eek my rider is too strong with his/her hands". I only learned about curb bits about half a year ago and most of the questions I asked were on here! Before then I knew as much about bits as you do right now. So get researchin'


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## Fimargue (Jun 19, 2015)

Too much pressure on the curb bit and bulging muscles. Not good. Do not ever do that, no matter how much you like the look. 

Arched neck - and not a head in the chest like this, overbent, is the result of horse being on the bit and it comes from behind, horse pushing with the hind, working through the back and meeting the reins. You should never have this amount of pressure in your hands.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Get
a 

decent
trainer 





NOW


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## Fimargue (Jun 19, 2015)

Pelham is supposed to have two reins, but now you are only using the curb one, and leverage bits are not supposed to be ridden in contact. 

Here, demonstrating how it works:





That bit works with poll pressure so when you pull on it, the horse's head goes down. Leverage bit only is not accepted in dressage because of this. It creates a false headset.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

It's not the the Pelham is an evil bit, quite the opposite. It's how it's being used that's bad. By only having a single rein on the curb and strong contact, you are at a 10 right off the bat. The Pelham is designed to be ridden with two reins, one for the snaffle and one for the curb. That way, you can have your normal contact and be at a 2, then go up to a 5 by adding a little curb pressure, or if you need a "WhoaOMGwe'regoingtodiestopdarnit" you can go to 10.

And the rounded neck isn't nessesarily bad in itself, but it's the path taken there that is bad. Getting them to yield by jiggling the reins is the bad way. Doing it through progressive strength training, education to the hand, and shifting of carrying capacity is the right way. The neck is a by product, not the goal.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

LydiaAndJustice said:


> I'm glad people are calling out her bit! Thats part of the problem with why riders grow up with bad habits and doing things that really hurt horses. I am actually really happy that people are telling me about whats wrong with it,* because of course my trainer has taught me that her bit is perfectly normal and that there is nothing wrong with the pelham.* The neck curve and bits I used are just what I have been taught to use and enable. I can't change her bit, but at least now I know that I need to ride with softer hands and provide enough slack so that if she needs to she can relieve the pressure. Thanks guys!!!



Now see, in someone who has been taught how to ride with a bit like this, where connecting a rein to the bit, how to hold those reins _{there are technically supposed to be 2 reins on this bit!}_ and how to use finger tip pressure as communication this bit is a wonderful tool of communication.
We are _*not*_ picking on you.... honest.
We, those of us trying hard to educate and explain things to you though can see your struggling to learn, wanting to learn and that there is a better way of learning for you if you will just look for it.
I can only speak for myself, but can tell you that at 9 years of age I rode lesson horses in bits exactly like what Emily wears, but used it correctly with a instructor watching me, correcting me, educating me how to ride, communicate with and be soft with my hands.
You have been left to your own ways and are trying to figure out on your own...
That is why so many of us say,_ strongly suggest_ you leave and get a real trainer who knows and shares their knowledge with you. 
Someone who will teach you, instruct you, so you become a quiet partner with your horse because he is asked not as a evasion to harshness as Emily is doing in that picture...
Those are the kind of differences we see, and are trying to get you to understand and to want to be better for you, for your horse...
Please remember though, our words and comments are _*never*_ aimed at you to hurt you, but to help correct and further your education riding and taking care of your new horse, Justice.

:runninghorse2:...


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Good Lord! If someone taught you that THIS:














was something beautiful, and you should aspire to that, then you DO need a new trainer. That poor horse is being pulled back so hard, and he's curling under and back, leaning forward, getting no relief, trying to figure out how to get away from those pulling hands . . . 



it's NOT the bit. It's the hands . . . and an ignorant brain.




Sorry, friend, but you really need to get a better trainer. In the mean time, take some responsibility for your own growth as a horse person and do some reading. Start buying or checking out books on horsemanship. I suggest you consider some by Mary Wanless, Sally Swift and others. you are young, but not so young you can't do some research.


Horsemanship is not a parade . it's not about 'pretty'. It's about being fair to the horse, and working together , to bring out the best, little by little.


I wish I could work with you in person, because what I see you writing is frustrating me, and I'm supposed to keep my cool.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

ApuetsoT said:


> And the rounded neck isn't nessesarily bad in itself, but it's the path taken there that is bad. Getting them to yield by jiggling the reins is the bad way. Doing it through progressive strength training, education to the hand, and shifting of carrying capacity is the right way. The neck is a by product, not the goal.



BUT in that pic the horse looks well overbent = BAD....


It is very very sad that this young lady is being taught that this is good....and I know to my HUGE cost how hard it is to overcome bad habits taught then ingrained. The worse thought is that she may end up with a young horse and try and train him herself, the whole thing is just scary.


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

Getting a horse to move "on the bit" has little to nothing to do with the reins, or even with the bit. It takes rider strength (and I do NOT mean hand and arm strength), horse strength, slow conditioning of both. Riding in a sympathetic manner where your body moves softly and smoothly along with the horse's motion and doesn't block it. It starts from the hind end of the horse, and has nothing to do with holding the horse's face in up front.

After two and a half years of dedicated riding with a schoolmaster of a horse, a winter of slow and steady careful conditioning of both the horse and myself, and twice weekly lessons with an absolutely wonderful coach, I am FINALLY riding this horse "on the bit." I developed more muscle to carry myself, communicate clearly, and free up my body to avoid interfering with her way of going. And she developed better strength for self-carriage. And it would NOT have been possible without my fantastic coach. And here we are! We are on the bit. And it actually means using my hands LESS! Sometimes it even means giving the horse a very long rein and letting her nose stretch all the way to the ground. It doesn't mean holding the horse in a frame to look nice.

The best thing you could do for yourself and for your horse is to find a new, GOOD coach, preferably one with a dressage background, and focus on building a good seat, and building your horse's fitness correctly. If you want to be a good rider and a good horseperson, I would be putting ideas of showing on hold for now and focus on getting right down to basics. If you build a strong foundation, you can add skills and build on it. If you don't build that strong foundation, and try to add specialized skills (ie. jumping) on top, the whole thing is going to come crashing down at some point soon like a wobbly Jenga tower.

There is NO SHAME in going to a new, GOOD coach, and saying "I want to know everything, from the beginning." They'll respect you more for it and you'll learn more. The person you should be most in competition with is yourself. Forget what these other kids are doing or saying. If you get good instruction, you might feel "set back" at the beginning but you'll be miles ahead of them before you know it, because you put learning correctly ahead of everything else.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Golden Horse said:


> BUT in that pic the horse looks well overbent = BAD....
> 
> 
> It is very very sad that this young lady is being taught that this is good....and I know to my HUGE cost how hard it is to overcome bad habits taught then ingrained. The worse thought is that she may end up with a young horse and try and train him herself, the whole thing is just scary.


Right. I wasn't speaking directly typo that picture, that is too deep for any idealized riding. The "pretty dressage horse" neck was more what I had in mind.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

SteadyOn said:


> There is NO SHAME in going to a new, GOOD coach, and saying "I want to know everything, from the beginning." They'll respect you more for it and you'll learn more. The person you should be most in competition with is yourself. Forget what these other kids are doing or saying. If you get good instruction, you might feel "set back" at the beginning but you'll be miles ahead of them before you know it, because you put learning correctly ahead of everything else.



Amen to your whole post, especially this...

It is very hard to find a good coach though, that is what is so frustrating, I didn't know that my first dressage coach actually sucked, until I slowly realized it from online feeback.....


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

I want you to do something. In your living room, get down on hands and knees. Then have someone put weight on your back, either by sitting on it or pushing hard on it. You can also wear a heavy book back. Walk around for a bit (on all fours). Observe how you will bend your neck as a byproduct of flexing your stomach muscles, which in turn raises your back and stabilizes it to better carry the weight. The "pretty" bending you seek does not come from curling the head under, let alone from forcing the head to curl under! It comes from engaging the stomach muscles and creating an arched, toned body that carries tension like a leaf spring carrying the weight of a railway car.


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

Golden Horse said:


> Amen to your whole post, especially this...
> 
> It is very hard to find a good coach though, that is what is so frustrating, I didn't know that my first dressage coach actually sucked, until I slowly realized it from online feeback.....


Amen to that! I've had two truly wonderful coaches in my life -- one when I was a teen, and my current one -- and I knew within the very first lesson that I'd found something special. Even though I fell off in my first lesson with the teen years one, and she was convinced I was never coming back.  

Even after nearly three years with my current coach, she'll still make a suggestion with results that will shock me with how immediately they make an improvement. And her perceptiveness is mindboggling.

Of course, in both situations it took having some really bad coaches first to make the standout ones REALLY stand out! In a way I'm thankful for my time with the terrible ones, because they make me appreciate a good thing when I find it.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Rollkur or hyperflexion of the horse's neck is a practice in equestrianism defined as "flexion of the horse's neck achieved through aggressive force" and is banned by the world governing body, the International Federation for Equestrian Sports (FEI).

Rollkur is what you are doing to that poor horse. Please read up on it.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Arabs tend to have that curved neck that you're liking so much and most will do it on a snaffle. That Pelham you're using should have a snaffle rein on the top (snaffle ring) and a thinner rein called a curb rein on the lower ring. You ride most with the snaffle rein and only use the curb for more precise communication, very lightly. What your trainer has you doing is totally wrong and a real good indication that you need a new trainer. 










Here's a properly set up Pelham.

The 2 horses in the pics are both on snaffles, the grey's is a twisted wire snaffle, IRC, and I never ever rode her in it, that pic was before I owned her.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

mmshiro said:


> ...It comes from engaging the stomach muscles and creating an arched, toned body that carries tension like a leaf spring carrying the weight of a railway car.


Except that doesn't work with horses. For one thing, their back never arches up. Their spine won't allow it. For another, their stomach muscles contract while they are extending, not when their back is lifting. As they stretch out and their body goes lower, their stomach muscles contract. They relax as the back lifts. The third reason is that a horse's neck can arch without any impact on their back.

Mia (big Arabian mare) meeting Bandit's sire (smaller stallion) for the first time:










For any curious, they eventually had two foals together.​


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

bsms said:


> Except that doesn't work with horses. For one thing, t*heir back never arches up. *Their spine won't allow it. For another, their stomach muscles contract while they are extending, not when their back is lifting. As they stretch out and their body goes lower, their stomach muscles contract.* They relax as the back lifts. *The third reason is that a horse's neck can arch without any impact on their back.
> 
> Mia (big Arabian mare) meeting Bandit's sire (smaller stallion) for the first time:
> 
> ...



aren't those bolded things contradicting statements?


You can show me diagrams til the sun sets, but I'd swear, from my personal experiences, both on board a horse, and watching from the side, that the back appears to lift. It feels as if it lifts, or, perhaps one might say it 'fills out'. 

I do agree that the head can come up, and arch, with ZERO impact on teh back. That's why in dressage, the idea is to focus less on the head, and more on the hind end, since that is where you the horse centers in order to create that 'lifting up' feeling. and rounding the front of the neck won't get you there.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> You can show me diagrams til the sun sets, but I'd swear, from my personal experiences, both on board a horse, and watching from the side, that the back appears to lift. It feels as if it lifts, or, perhaps one might say it 'fills out'.
> 
> I do agree that the head can come up, and arch, with ZERO impact on teh back. That's why in dressage, the idea is to focus less on the head, and more on the hind end, since that is where you the horse centers in order to create that 'lifting up' feeling. and rounding the front of the neck won't get you there.



Absolutely....different feel entirely, Fergie came with a fantastic 'rounded neck' but it has taken 2 years work to get rid of the over rounded neck, and get lift through the back. I think maybe it is like trying to explain color to a blind person, or what a skunk smells like to me....no concept, you can explain it all you like, I'll never understand it. 



As riders we KNOW what we feel, we use the words we have to describe it and we all understand, ONCE we have experienced it.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

LydiaAndJustice said:


> Emily, the mare I ride at the private bar, knows how to do a curved really pretty neck if you tighten up the reins and jiggle them. I was wondering how hard it would be to teach Justice to one. I really like how it looks. I was also wondering if anyone knows any methods to teach a horse how to do the curved neck. I was also wondering if it is allowed in hunter or equitation classes. I don't know exactly what it is called but i will put Emilys picture down below. Thank you!


When you look at the tension in the horse it is sad then look at the tension in the roder's hands and that is even sadder that a rider would use such force. The knuckles are white, reins are not held correctly and the 'flexion' is being held. 

The rider has not been taught what flexion is. 

Put that Pelham across your shim and do the curb chain up around your calf and pull in the reins and feel what pressure you are exerting. I bet you will say "OUCH"

You say you will ride with softer hands, this is not going to happen until you are correctly taught about give and take.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Even being taught how to hold the reins has been overlooked for the poor girl... Ditto everyone else(cept Bob, sorry bob) the sooner you find a GOOD trainer the better because this one is setting you(and your horse) up for failure, and its a lot harder to get over bad habits than learn right from scratch.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I suspect that BSMS, and maybe many more, are picturing a horse with a roached back when someone says, "Round up the back", rather than a horse lifting or 'filling out' their back. I know when the concept of a horse lifting or rounding their back was first introduced to me, I had never heard of it and couldn't even begin to picture or understand it. Like Golden says, when we feel it, we know it and the light bulb goes on. Now when I ride a horse that's all hollowed out in the back, trailing back legs behind, I can feel it in their posture and even more so, in their gaits.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

bsms said:


> Except that doesn't work with horses. For one thing, their back never arches up. Their spine won't allow it. For another, their stomach muscles contract while they are extending, not when their back is lifting. As they stretch out and their body goes lower, their stomach muscles contract. They relax as the back lifts. The third reason is that a horse's neck can arch without any impact on their back.
> 
> Mia (big Arabian mare) meeting Bandit's sire (smaller stallion) for the first time:
> 
> ...


Well...

- Your horses are not carrying any load, so they would not be good illustrations of the principle.
- Of course their spines don't suddenly form a semicircle. In yoga, you'd say that your "core is supporting your spine". Even when you are standing and engaging your core, you will eliminate a (potentially) hollow back (depending on how athletic your natural posture is).
- The neck arching without affecting the back is EXACTLY the point I made. In order to bear a load, the back has to be supported by the core, which leads to a rounded neck as the horse flexes at the poll. Again, in yoga, this is explained as "pretend there is a string attaching to the crown of your head pulling it upwards" as opposed to "letting your chin drop to your chest".

The whole point of the post was to show her that a curve in the neck means nothing, but that the posture she desires is the natural byproduct (I even used that term) of an engaged core. 


This is what she wants (observe the rein tension):











This is what she has illustrated in her image (observe the disengaged core):


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Keep in mind that the OP rides at the rescue barn (Justice) once a month because of the distance and I expect the cost (drive and ride time). Those trainers IMO are lacking the skill to train horse or rider. The private barn (Emily) is where she rides once (maybe more) a week where the trainer is a college student that trades (massage from mom)time for lessons and the barn is near her school/home. The trainer here is even less capable IMO of training a rider. So she has two barns where horses are not trained adequately for what they are doing, riders that are not being properly trained in the chosen events, riding in ways that are detrimental and not correct. The private barn if I read correctly is where Justice will be moved to have him close and save money (Some grazing, run in, you provide feed/hay BO feeds and turns out for $150). In 6 months there has been no change in barns or trainers nor do I think there will be one. Kudos to you OP for coming with questions and being receptive to answers. 



I am not getting why the pelham at this point when in your jumping photos she had a snaffle.


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## Boo Walker (Jul 25, 2012)

Before you do this again, try being the horse. Hold your chin to your chest and walk around the arena. Now jog and add some serpentines. Be sure not to let you chin off your chest! Even when you are panting, KEEP THAT BEND IN YOUR NECK! 
It looks so pretty


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Ok so I'm going to come in differently. First of all, the horse is just standing in that picture so it's hard to know what the "curve" really looks like when the horse is moving out. That may be over-exaggerated because the rider is asking for something they don't fully understand. My horses have been taught to "give" to the bit pressure so if I'm standing still and put pressure on the bit, they'll drop, drop, curve, drop until I release. And that's not lugging or pulling or putting massive pressure on them, it's just squeezing the fingers. Now that's at a stand still with the baby. When I'm riding baby it's still a learning process. He'll carry it too high then too low, then too bent then too nosed out... he's learning.


I think your question is regarding "head-set" or "frame" or whatever would people like to say. You CAN teach your horse to move forward and achieve a certain carriage but you have to take in to consideration the conformation of the horse. They can't all look like a dressage horse. If you take Golden Horses Western Dressage Horse and compare it to Taz, me, or M2G then you are not going to have the same look. You've got four different breeds of horses and riding styles. 


Getting that "curve" is going to come from Correct movement from your horse. You don't actually focus on the head and neck, you focus on the haunches and the hind legs first. You want the horse to travel correctly, which means he needs to be reaching under his body and pushing off from his back legs. This will cause him to lift his back which creates room for him to come underneath himself. As the horse gives to the bit he'll "arch" his neck. But as said before, that amount of curve will depend on the build of the horse.


This trainer that you are using doesn't sound like they are advanced enough to teach you at a more advanced level so learning basics from this person is probably fine. Once you own Justice, I would suggest seeking out a more experienced trainer.


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I suspect that BSMS, and maybe many more, are picturing a horse with a roached back when someone says, "Round up the back", rather than a horse lifting or 'filling out' their back. I know when the concept of a horse lifting or rounding their back was first introduced to me, I had never heard of it and couldn't even begin to picture or understand it. Like Golden says, when we feel it, we know it and the light bulb goes on. Now when I ride a horse that's all hollowed out in the back, trailing back legs behind, I can feel it in their posture and even more so, in their gaits.


Is there any way you (or anyone else) could attempt to describe how it feels? I can SEE it from the ground but when I'm riding I honestly am not sure... (sorry to hijack).


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

You feel the lift between your legs. You can actually feel the lifting/rising of all the elements that make up the back. You can feel the power. You feel the energy. Like riding a cloud. When you feel it, WOW, is all I can say. You realize God has made perfection.

EDIT: when you first feel it for a stride or two, your life mission changes. You want the feeling, that connection all the time, for the rest of your life. You will spend the rest of your life reaching for that lift. Your relationship with horses changes. You change as a horseman.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Kalraii said:


> Is there any way you (or anyone else) could attempt to describe how it feels? I can SEE it from the ground but when I'm riding I honestly am not sure... (sorry to hijack).


One way you can kind of feel it is if you speed up without faster footfalls because the horse covers more ground per stride. A hollowed back, by contrast, will cause shorter strides, so the feet will move faster without an increase in ground speed. You get the impression that the horse is "coiled" up underneath you, ready to transform all that potential energy into kinetic one, if I may be nerdy for a second. 

Being light on the front is another indicator. It will feel as though you can change directions instantly. A horse that gallops, for example, and is all stretched out turns more like a cruise ship. 

Check out Arwen as she gallops in a straight line at the beginning vs. when she weaves around trees towards the end.


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## Tazzie (Nov 8, 2011)

Having a horse on the bit and lifting through the back is probably one of the most wonderful feelings when riding Dressage, and I truly hope if you pursue Dressage you can gain access to a coach that can help you achieve it. There is a vast difference in headset versus when a horse gives you their back and engages. My mare goes from crazy easy to ride when she's not engaged, to suddenly she will bounce you straight out of the saddle when she is. She gains lift and suspension when she's traveling correctly. I broke her myself, and our first few months of riding included her head way up in the air while I helped her gain her balance with a rider on board. I was always taught to ignore the head and work on the body. Because of this, I don't have to fight to get the "frame" (lord I hate that word) I want. It comes naturally when she's reaching through with her hind end, lifting through the back and withers, and her head and neck naturally seek the contact.

Is riding always perfect? Nope. My mare if she has too much rein pressure will duck behind the vertical. She has days she wants to try to live behind it because she's not in the mood to work (on a loose rein no less). It's my job as the rider to straighten the body out to get her head back in front of the vertical. Putting more pressure on it would just cause the head to duck more.

There are many, many good instructors out there, and tons of great books to read. I've been a fan of Jane Savoie since I was first starting. If you have a Facebook, maybe post looking for local trainers? There is a wealth of knowledge out there. And MANY Dressage groups if you want the "pretty neck" that will come from proper Dressage.

I will say a MASSIVE kudos to you for taking the constructive criticism wonderfully!

Here is kind of what I'm referencing. My second picture still needs work, but you can see what I'm meaning. She has great reach under her body, and she's using the body to bring the head and neck onto the bit. She could be a bit uphill, but that was one of our last classes and she was getting a bit tired. The wonderful thing about Dressage is that it is always a work in progress!

This was about a month under saddle for her, and we were doing SUPER short rides









This was last fall, four years after the previous picture was taken


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Some Western horses are unfortunately subjected to Rollkur. It is not limited to Dressage. Do not do this please. 


It is not a "pretty rounded neck" it is PAINFUL to the horse. 


Please do not do this.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I suspect that BSMS, and maybe many more, are picturing a horse with a roached back when someone says, "Round up the back", rather than a horse lifting or 'filling out' their back.......



"aren't those bolded things [ *their back never arches up...**They relax as the back lifts. * ] contradicting statements?" - @tinyliny

No, tinyliny, they are not conflicting statements. People often say the back "rounds up" and this allows the horse to carry more weight because arches are strong. But the horse's back is incapable of forming an arch. It is physically impossible for it to "arch". 

Instead, when a horse "collects", it tucks under at the rear and lifts at the withers:








​ 
That diagram comes from one of Jean Claude Racinet's books on dressage. It is in full agreement both with what science says the back CAN do, and what people FEEL. By adjusting how it uses its front feet, and lifting with the thoracic sling - the back is not attacked to the front legs by bone, but by a sling of muscle - the horse lifts at the withers while tucking under from the rear.

It is important to note: That is hard work for the horse. The horse works hard to give the feeling of light - just as a ballet dancer works hard to give the impression her movement is effortless! A horse dealing with a heavy load will not collect and move like a ballerina. He will brace his back, take smaller steps, and keep his feet on the ground longer - just as we humans react when carrying a heavy load.

There is nothing wrong with teaching a horse to lift its back and tuck its hind legs under a bit. But we ought to appreciate that, like a ballerina, the horse is then working hard to make things look effortless.

However, in the bolded section, I wasn't referring to "collection". As a horse moves at a trot, canter or gallop, the back rises and falls. When the horse's body is descending (and stretching out, the extension phase), the stomach muscles tense. The "bow & string" theory was put to the test, and failed. As the body is stretching out and descending, the muscles of the tummy tighten. As the horse (not just his back) starts to rise, the tummy muscles relax. One theory is that the tummy muscles tighten because the horse is carrying, not just the rider, but the weight of his gut. As the intestines, etc are going down, the tummy tightens to control THEIR descent. Once everything is moving upward, the tummy muscles can relax.

When standing still, the horse can lift its back a little if you tickle the tummy muscles. When standing still.

The movement and position of the neck has little to do with the horse's use of its body. The stallion meeting Mia for the first time could arch his neck while looking kind of hollow in his stance. Or not. Yesterday, trotting Bandit in our tiny arena, he felt the need to nibble his shoulder. He twisted his head around, still trotting nicely, and nibbled for a few seconds. Then he lifted his head to watch where he was going in the turn. As we straightened out, he resumed nibbling for a few strides, then was satisfied.

A more refined rider might have felt a difference in his trot. I couldn't, although his teeth were at his shoulder. Because HE was choosing to do so, he could do so with minimal impact on his trot.

Many years ago, visiting a ranch, my horse bolted. I had been told to pull his head around. I did. I did it until his nose was at my knee, and he didn't slow down or turn. He kept a pretty good gallop going with his nose at my knee. If it ever happens to you, try kicking his shoulder. On that day, I learned a horse doesn't have to follow his head, but he MUST follow his shoulder!

The arched neck look has been desired at least since the time of Xenophon:

This is the way horses behave that are fretted by their 
riders into ugly and ungraceful action ; but 
if you teach your horse to go with a light 
hand on the bit, and yet to hold his head 
well up and to arch his neck, you will be 
making him do just what the animal himself 
glories and delights in. A proof that he 
really delights in it is that *when a horse is *
* turned loose and runs off to join other horses, *
* and especially towards mares, then he holds *
* his head up as high as he can, arches his *
* neck in the most spirited style, lifts his legs *
* with free action, and raises his tail*.* So *
* when he is induced by a man to assume *
* all the airs and graces which he puts on *
* of himself when he is showing off voluntarily*, 
the result is a horse that likes to be ridden, 
that presents a magnificent sight, that looks 
alert, that is the observed of all observers...

...and in his joy thereat he will 
bound along with proud gait and prancing 
legs, imitating exactly the airs that he puts 
on before other horses. Everybody that sees 
such a horse cries out that he is free, willing, 
fit to ride, high-mettled, brilliant, and at once 
beautiful and fiery in appearance.
​ But as everyone on this thread probably agrees, and as Xenophon pointed out:

If you desire to handle a good war-horse 
so as to make his action the more magnificent 
and striking, *you must refrain from *
* pulling at his mouth with the bit as well as *
* from spurring and whipping him*. Most 
people think that this is the way to make 
him look fine; but they only produce an 
effect exactly contrary to what they desire, — 
they positively blind their horses by jerking 
the mouth up instead of letting them look 
forward, and by spurring and striking scare 
them into disorder and danger.

Full text of "The Art of Horsemanship" by Xenophon, roughly 350 B.C.​


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## DreamerR (Dec 17, 2017)

I found a video on youtube of a girl explaining the correct way for a horse to hold there head. Here is the link 




I found another picture taken from the side from a time when we had a horsey photoshoot. I'll attach it. I really value all the comments that have been posted. Rollkur looks like the head in bent all the way to the chest. If you look a the photo I'm attaching you can see that her head isn't near as far as down. Is the bending in the new picture as bad as the first one? Thanks!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I'll add a note for any others who are backyard riders like myself. ANY horse can and sometimes will collect. Not for long, because it is hard work. Unlike some here, I don't find the feeling to be the pinnacle of riding. I prefer - as is my right - looking at some challenging terrain ahead, feeling my horse say "I've got it", and then the feeling of power and determination as he tackles the challenge.

But any rider should also monitor how the horse's back feels. 800 lb Bandit had been raced 10-15 mile legs with 200-265 lb riders on his back. He arrived here bracing his back like an I-beam. Painful to ride and I'm sure not fun for him. Rather than think "hollow", think "braced" or "rigid". That is easy to feel. 

In contrast, think "relaxed", or even better, "supple". Think of words like "flowing" or "engaged".

An important job of the back muscles is to prevent the rigid spine from sagging enough to be hurt. The horse WILL make every effort to prevent that by tightening and bracing the muscles of the back. That indicates bad riding or bad conditioning or bad habits.

Flowing, supple, engaged - that is also easy to feel. It applies at a gallop, trot or walk.

If you desire the feel of lifting and collecting, that is fine too. It goes beyond supple. But even beginning riders should be able to feel the difference between flowing and braced. If your horse feels free to use his back in a flowing motion, he will also sometimes choose to lift his back as well - briefly. If that is what one likes, you can then pursue it - as Xenophon said, "_...when he is induced by a man to assume all the airs and graces which he puts on of himself when he is showing off voluntarily..._". However, at any pace, at any speed, the horse's back should flow.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

1.) Please tell me you weren't taught to hold your reins like that
2.) You need a trainer who has a clue. SO much wrong with that photo.... the horse, the bit, your hands, everything.
2.) You get a nice curve to the neck when the horse is moving properly in frame, supporting himself through his back, and carrying himself properly. That comes from riding the back end of the horse forward. What you're doing is riding front to back-- forcing the horse's neck into position with the bit, which is 100% wrong. And it doesn't look pretty. 



Please go to your local library or online and purchase a copy of Alois Podhajsky's "Complete Training of Horse and Rider" and put it by your bed. Read and study that. Apply it to your riding. You will learn a lot. And please, please, please get some lessons from a decent trainer. If money is tight and that means you get one lesson every 2 months, so be it. You will be much farther ahead doing that than riding several times a week with the people you have 'teaching' you now. You're learning nothing but bad habits.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

The best way I can describe the feeling of a 'rounded back' is when you can feel the horse is stepping way up underneath himself, you're connected through the bit (he's neither bracing against it nor is he wallowing behind it), his front end is light (he's not down on it dragging himself rather than pushing himself from behind). It changes the feel of every gait. The walk becomes HUGE, loose and swings through the back, the trot has a ton of suspension and a lope or canter feels like you're riding big ocean swells. The horse can be collected or extended in any gait without a lot of effort. When jumping, you can come off one jump and set the horse down and turn tightly into the next jump without losing impulsion (called "handy") or when working cows you can swing that front end left or right with no hesitation. 

I think sometimes it's easier to feel when a horse is 'hollow' than rounded because more of them ARE hollow than rounded. The nose is stuck way out front, head is up high, the back sinks down and the weight is on the front legs and the horse is pulling himself around, the hind legs are strung out behind. This is pretty normal, especially for green horses who are just learning how to put all the pieces together.

These 2 pics are of Ducati (my horse) as a 3 year old at his first World Championship show. In the first, he got excited and braced against Tom's hands and is a great example of a 'hollowed out' horse. The 2nd, he's better, less braced against the hands and pushing more from behind, but still a little too much on the forehand. He's more 'rounded'.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

She still appears to be evading the bit and is over flexed


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Look at the bulging neck. That means the head position is forced rather than one the horse seeks to work more efficiently. The reins look like they'll sound like a guitar string when you pluck them - it's not supposed to be like that.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

I hate it when you lose internet connection, and therefore a post that you created...I will try again later..

It’s just like losing connection when you are riding..the message can vanish..


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

LydiaAndJustice said:


> I found another picture taken from the side from a time when we had a horsey photoshoot. I'll attach it. I really value all the comments that have been posted. Rollkur looks like the head in bent all the way to the chest. If you look a the photo I'm attaching you can see that her head isn't near as far as down. Is the bending in the new picture as bad as the first one? Thanks!


That's still a problem. There's more to it, but as a general rule, there's no reason your horse's face should ever be "behind the vertical." As in, the silhouette of the front of the face should not be brought in past the point where it forms a straight up and down line. And in almost all of your riding, even when your horse is carrying themselves well and on the bit, their face is still going to be in front of the vertical -- and for most things you're going to be doing, that's correct and exactly where it should be.


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

I just found this EXTREMELY comprehensive article. It's a long one but looks like a VERY good one. I suggest buckling in and reading up. ::: Sustainable Dressage - Rollkur - How And Why Not? - Behind the Vertical Explained :::


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

This is very interesting (at least I though so!) 

It explains about the horses back lifting and shows through X rays what happens when a horse's back lifts as opposed to it being hollow.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> The best way I can describe the feeling of a 'rounded back' is when you can feel the horse is stepping way up underneath himself, you're connected through the bit (he's neither bracing against it nor is he wallowing behind it), his front end is light (he's not down on it dragging himself rather than pushing himself from behind). It changes the feel of every gait. The walk becomes HUGE, loose and swings through the back, the trot has a ton of suspension and a lope or canter feels like you're riding big ocean swells.





Great descriptions..the first time I felt Fergie truly working through from behind I really thought she was gathering to buck, you could feel the energy generating. The came the panic over thinking she was going to run off in her transitions, then I realized that it was because she was so light in front that she was truly moving UP into her transitions.. That feeling is wonderful, and you only get it from behind, and the head just falls into place...it is only at that moment that you truly GET riding a horse from back to front. There are those who will tell you that a horse cannot 'lift' or 'bend' that they cannot get lighter, because gravity does not change.....those people have never felt the beauty and jot of feeling a supple round horse, who will softly bend around your leg..AND it is only when all that is in place that we can even start to talk about collection......because without the foundations and understanding then you simply cannot even start to explore the notion of collection.


OK @LydiaAndJustice you are probably feeling battered about now, but read this..


I totally 100% understand what you are asking, and why..I'm old now, but way back in the mists of time for two glorious weeks of the year, we had hours of Showjumping on in primetime TV. I remember sitting there just mesmerized when I saw some continental riders, with their big Warmbloods, they rode into the ring, beautiful arched neck, chin on chest, and you could see the riders working their hands back and fore, really riding them into that shape...and I thought it was the coolest look ever...

Fast forward 50 or so years, bad instruction, years and years of no instruction, and it has taken my current coach literally YEARS to totally remove that vision from my head. Early impressions and training stay with you, I know this. Getting the best instruction you can to start with, getting the right building blocks in place are vitally important...for your own sake, and more importantly the sake of the horses that you come into contact with, you need to learn properly.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Foxhunter said:


> This is very interesting (at least I though so!)
> 
> It explains about the horses back lifting and shows through X rays what happens when a horse's back lifts as opposed to it being hollow.
> 
> https://youtu.be/hokqRs9GbrI


This is correct.


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