# What colors to make buckskin?



## MacabreMikolaj

To produce your best chance of buckskin, she should be bred to a perlino. Breeding to a perlino guarantees a buckskin, palomino or smoky black foal, with buckskin being the highest percentage of the option. Breeding to a double cream (perlino, cremello or smoky cream) guarantees a dilute foal. Depending on whether she or the stud throw agouti, it can be a toss up between a palomino and a buckskin (smoky black is a lot less likely, just as buckskin would have better chances if the mare also carries agouti).

You could also have a chance at a buckskin by breeding her TO a buckskin, but this is a lot less of a guarantee - then you have the option of buckskin, palomino, smoky black, bay, chestnut or black. 

Obviously though, color should be the last thing you're breeding for. Perlino is a somewhat "rare" color, you definately don't see it as commonly as the others, and I think it would be a crying shame to sacrifice conformation just to get a colored foal.


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## AnnaLover

Thanks so much for the information. of course I would *never* breed for color, I was just curious to see what color stud was needed. Thanks!


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## AnnaLover

I just found him
This is ....the Stallion.....everyone is Talking About!


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## AnnaLover

What does "BREEDING FEE: P/T L.C.F.G" mean?


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## Eastowest

_>>>What does "BREEDING FEE: P/T L.C.F.G" mean? _

Private Treaty- Live color foal guarantee

It means they guarantee that the foal will be born a specific color/color(s)---most likely offer a refund or a breed back if you don't get whatever color(s) they guarantee-- but since he is double dilute they can be pretty confident what colors he will sire.

Private Treaty means that they negotiate each breeding fee individually with the mare owner, usually pricing the breeding according to how much they like the mare, and/or how likely a foal from the mare will make their stallion look good-- for example if the mare is a champion or champion producer, if the mare owners have a history of showing and promoting the foals they raise, etc.


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## TrueColours

The other perlino stallion that I like a lot is RFF Starbuck located at Red Fox Farm in TX ... he has thrown some really nice foals in the past

If you do breed your mare to a cremello, then you will 100% get a palomino foal - there is no other colour option possibility ... 

Does anyone know of any nice smoky cream stallions out there that can also be recommended?


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## Eastowest

_>>>> I just found him_

I would like to see a conformation photo of this stallion, and more about his foals. I looked at the website for him --
Our Stallion

and I am confused about what they are stating he "is" genetically-- they state he is homozygous for AA, EE, cream and DD-- yet they also say he has sired palomino, dunalino, and grulla foals (and some of the foal photos they are calling dun look like regular buckskin to me)-- if he has sired palomino and dunalino foals he cannot be homozygous EE, if he has sired grulla foals he cannot be homozygous AA, and if he has sired palominos and buckskins who do not have dun factor he cannot be homozygous DD.

Their website also mentions alot of foals sold without papers-- not sure why that would be something you would mention on your website like it was a GOOD thing?

I dunno-- this one just has my radar up. He might be a nice horse and his owners are just getting into the swing of things, and/or were given bad/inaccurate information, etc-- but IMO be sure to see him and his offspring in person or thru good photos and videos, and also request a breeding contract and go over it very carefully-- if at all possible find mare owners who have bred their mares to him and see what their experience has been.(All of the above is a good idea no matter what stallion you are breeding to IMO.)


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## weefoal

I agree that a lot of the foal colors listed on that site look to be incorrect. 

I also agree with the above that the resulting foal will be Palomino not buckskin


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## nrhareiner

Green as in cash. If you want a Buckskin best way to get it is buy one.


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## nrhareiner

Eastowest said:


> _>>>> I just found him_
> 
> I would like to see a conformation photo of this stallion, and more about his foals. I looked at the website for him --
> Our Stallion
> 
> and I am confused about what they are stating he "is" genetically-- they state he is homozygous for AA, EE, cream and DD-- yet they also say he has sired palomino, dunalino, and grulla foals (and some of the foal photos they are calling dun look like regular buckskin to me)-- if he has sired palomino and dunalino foals he cannot be homozygous EE, if he has sired grulla foals he cannot be homozygous AA, and if he has sired palominos and buckskins who do not have dun factor he cannot be homozygous DD.
> 
> Their website also mentions alot of foals sold without papers-- not sure why that would be something you would mention on your website like it was a GOOD thing?
> 
> I dunno-- this one just has my radar up. He might be a nice horse and his owners are just getting into the swing of things, and/or were given bad/inaccurate information, etc-- but IMO be sure to see him and his offspring in person or thru good photos and videos, and also request a breeding contract and go over it very carefully-- if at all possible find mare owners who have bred their mares to him and see what their experience has been.(All of the above is a good idea no matter what stallion you are breeding to IMO.)


I agree. Can we say color breeder who knows nothing about color or breeding or even horses from the looks of it.


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## southerncowgirl93

To get a buckskin from a sorrel, I won't even pretend to know the answer to that. But, to get a palomino from a sorrel, breed to a cremello, and the only color you could get would be a palomino.


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## kevinshorses

nrhareiner said:


> Green as in cash. If you want a Buckskin best way to get it is buy one.


I certainly agree there. Probably much cheaper as well.


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## kiwigirl

Please excuse my ignorance. I have always read (in english horse books) that a dun is a light brown/cream coat with dark points. Later on in life I came across the term Buckskin which sounded like another term for dun. I thought that buckskin is the American term and dun is the English term for the same colouring. Could someone clarify the colour differences for me please.


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## Sixxofdiamonds

kiwigirl said:


> Please excuse my ignorance. I have always read (in english horse books) that a dun is a light brown/cream coat with dark points. Later on in life I came across the term Buckskin which sounded like another term for dun. I thought that buckskin is the American term and dun is the English term for the same colouring. Could someone clarify the colour differences for me please.



Taken from the International Buckskin Horse Association:

"A true colored buckskin should be the color of tanned deerhide with black points. Shades may vary from yellow to dark gold. Points (mane, tail, legs) can be dark brown or black. Buckskin is clean of any smuttiness. Guard hairs which are buckskin colored grow through the body coat up over the base of the mane and tail."

"Dun is an intense color with a hide that has an abundance of pigment in the hairs. The dun color is a duller shade than buckskin and may have a smutty appearance. Most dun horses have dark points of brown or black. Dun horses sport the "dun factor" points which include dorsal and shoulder stripes, leg barring, etc."

Definitely two different colors. A dun can have sootiness, whereas a buckskin is a clear coat. My guy in the avatar is a dun, even thought at first glance he looks like a buckskin. He has shading on his shoulder, forehead and has leg barring - a buckskin shouldn't have that. 

Some say that a dorsal stripe = a dun. No stripe = buckskin. However, some buckskins can have a dun stripe, it will just be very clearly defined with no sootiness on the outside if clipped.


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## MacabreMikolaj

Dun and buckskin are genetically different. Dun is a seperate gene then "cream" which causes your palominos (chestnut with cream), buckskins (bay with cream), smoky blacks (black with cream) and double dilutes such as cremello (chestnut), perlino (bay) and smoky cream (black).

Dun is a gene that can affect ANY color - in fact, genetically, you can have a buckskin dun (a lot of people call them "dunskins"). Dun is a "primitive" gene that will always cause zebrea striping on the legs and a dorsel stripe. It really has very little to do with actual color, because dun and cream can both affect ANY color. The tell is in the markings, and from past lineage.


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## MacabreMikolaj

As a note, sooty can affect ANY horse. So while your standards bay duns (the ones that look like buckskins) are usually softer and somewhat sooty in appearance, sooty can affect buckskin just as easily and make them look "dun". Your best tell is in the zebra striping and checking past lineage.


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## AnnaLover

I found this gorgeous grulla stud who is actually a performance horse. He is homozygous for dun so would that most likely be a red dun out of a sorrel?

He has two ads..
DreamHorse.com Horse ID: 1452624 - TUFF LITTLE DRIFTER AQHA/NFQHA GRULLO @ STUD


DreamHorse.com Horse ID: 1497446 - TUFF LITTLE DRIFTER


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## AnnaLover

This ad has a conformation shot.
TUFF LITTLE DRIFTER - Grulla Quarter Horse at Stud in Phoenix, Arizona AZ - FREE Ads

It doesn't show the actual stud fee though.


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## AnnaLover

His youtube video:





His foals:





His website:
TANZANITE QUARTER HORSE RANCH


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## MacabreMikolaj

His stud fee is $850. And he's a lot better looking and more accomplished then the perlino stud.

Your chances would pretty much be 50/50 for a grulla or a red dun, with bay dun also being a possibility if your mare carries agouti. However, the dun is by no means guaranteed - you're almost just as likely to get another sorrel foal depending on the zygosity of the genetics on the pair.

I would love a sabino Arabian - I think they are gorgeous. I've planned for awhile to breed my mare to Khartoon Khlassic. Am I doing it because he's sabino? No. I'm doing it because I love the way he is built. The sabino is a bonus, even though I'm aware she may not throw a sabino foal. If Khartoon Khlassic died, would I breed to his accomplished son Pikhasso? Probably not - I am not fond of the way he's built even though he has sabino.

We all have colors we'd love to have, but buying is the only way to get those colors in a good looking foal. We all love unique colors, but breeding is a crapshoot at best. My chestnut mare comes from many lines of bays and blacks, her dam was bay and her sire was black and oh, lookie, another dang chestnut! That's the way it is though - you simply cannot breed for color. If you manage to find a good stud with a color you like, it's an ok risk, but never a guarantee. But how good is the fun colored baby going to be when it doesn't have the conformation to do anything but sit in a pasture?


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## smrobs

Another thing that bugs me about Pocos Blue Eyed King is; if he has such perfect conformation, why don't they have any full body pix of him??


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## AnnaLover

MacabreMikolaj said:


> His stud fee is $850. And he's a lot better looking and more accomplished then the perlino stud.
> 
> Your chances would pretty much be 50/50 for a grulla or a red dun, with bay dun also being a possibility if your mare carries agouti. However, the dun is by no means guaranteed - you're almost just as likely to get another sorrel foal depending on the zygosity of the genetics on the pair.
> 
> I would love a sabino Arabian - I think they are gorgeous. I've planned for awhile to breed my mare to Khartoon Khlassic. Am I doing it because he's sabino? No. I'm doing it because I love the way he is built. The sabino is a bonus, even though I'm aware she may not throw a sabino foal. If Khartoon Khlassic died, would I breed to his accomplished son Pikhasso? Probably not - I am not fond of the way he's built even though he has sabino.
> 
> We all have colors we'd love to have, but buying is the only way to get those colors in a good looking foal. We all love unique colors, but breeding is a crapshoot at best. My chestnut mare comes from many lines of bays and blacks, her dam was bay and her sire was black and oh, lookie, another dang chestnut! That's the way it is though - you simply cannot breed for color. If you manage to find a good stud with a color you like, it's an ok risk, but never a guarantee. But how good is the fun colored baby going to be when it doesn't have the conformation to do anything but sit in a pasture?



I totally agree with you and I'm not exactly looking for color but a good conformation horse that can perform. I just came across the perlino because I was looking to see if there were any because they are rare. I came across the grulla when I was looking at studs of all colors, and he works cows which is what I am looking to do, and he happened to have beautiful coloring, too.


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## AnnaLover

smrobs said:


> Another thing that bugs me about Pocos Blue Eyed King is; if he has such perfect conformation, why don't they have any full body pix of him??


I agree. He does seem very iffy.


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## taylor12

I would try a palimino stallion with a buckskin mare.I have a friend (aunt) that is a judge in full size and miniature horses and i'll try to get a hold of her and see what she thinks. But i think your better off just buying one.


Thanks!

Taylor


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## AnnaLover

I also agree that buying a buckskin would be a heck of a lot easier but again, I am not breeding for a buckskin, I was only curious to see if there was any good studs that would make a buckskin foal, which there isn't, because I do love the color. I am looking for the foal to be a good cow horse and possibly a new color to ad to the herd. My mare that I mentioned is just a light riding horse and doesn't do much and has produced gorgeous foals before so I thought it would be an extremely fun and educational experience. Please no more comments about just breeding for color, because I'm not. What do you guys think of the grulla stud?


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## nrhareiner

FIRST on the Grullo. HERDA. there is no mention of it and his dams sire is a known carrier if memory serves correctly.

Also I have looked at him before when someone posted him. Although he dose have some accomplishments it is only in foundation QH. To me that is like playing in a limited sandbox where only certain kids can play and he is not even the best there. I comend then for training and getting him out and doing something but come one lets play with the big boys if you are going to ask that type of stud fee. There are quite a few well proven stallions standing for that or less.

Over all if you are breeding for color you can do worse but to me I would look for a better stallion and do not let color factor in. Also if you want a good and I mean really good nice stallion who will give you a very good chance of color I would sugest Hollywood White. If you are looking for a performance stallion you will not find much better.


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## upsidedown

I suspect Hollywood White is Ee Aa CRCR as he has thrown all single dilute creams and were he homozygous for black or agouti he would have done that.

So with the OP's mare being ee for sure but we have no idea on the agouti all we can guess right now is that with that breeding she could have Palomino, Buckskin, or Smokey Black.


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## nrhareiner

upsidedown said:


> I suspect Hollywood White is Ee Aa CRCR as he has thrown all single dilute creams and were he homozygous for black or agouti he would have done that.
> 
> So with the OP's mare being ee for sure but we have no idea on the agouti all we can guess right now is that with that breeding she could have Palomino, Buckskin, or Smokey Black.



Correct however she would be using a stallion who has A LOT more going for him but color. Hollywood White has an out standing pedigree. His is put together very well and has an out standing performance and sire record. This breeding to get a certain color just dose not sit well with me. If you want a buckskin go buy one. If you want a quality foal then start with a quality mare and pick a quality stallion and get this crap about color out of your head.


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## upsidedown

Oh no I complete agree with you, he is the nicest stallion she'd be able to breed to have the possibility of a buckskin bred for what she wants. I'm just saying genetically him being a perlino doesn't guarantee a buckskin, and that was her initial question so I was just answering that. I don't she could go better than Hollywood White.


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## AnnaLover

Where is Hollywood White located?


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## nrhareiner

Forgotten Lane Farm


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## AnnaLover

He's in Texas?
What's his stud fee?


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## smrobs

The 2009 Breeding Fee is $1,800 and we offer a multiple mare discount of $1,200 each mare booked. Shipped semen is available. Contact us for further information.

Copied from their site
http://www.forgottenlane.com/hollywoodwhite.htm


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## Reinercrazy

Tuff Little Drifter is HERDA N/N, he is HOMOZYGOUS for dun & they do offer great early booking specials off his $850 stud fee


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## Reinercrazy

MacabreMikolaj said:


> His stud fee is $850. And he's a lot better looking and more accomplished then the perlino stud.
> 
> Your chances would pretty much be 50/50 for a grulla or a red dun, with bay dun also being a possibility if your mare carries agouti. However, the dun is by no means guaranteed - you're almost just as likely to get another sorrel foal depending on the zygosity of the genetics on the pair.


With Tuff Little Drifter's guarentee of dun factor a sorrel is not possible, he also carries one cream gene so a dunalino is possible.


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## Reinercrazy

nrhareiner said:


> I agree. Can we say color breeder who knows nothing about color or breeding or even horses from the looks of it.


That is SOOOOOOOOO true!!!!


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## AnnaLover

I am really considering Tuff Little Drifter.. but at this guy's house where we do sorting, he has some gorgeous foundation bred stallions that have won a lot of money and are incredible working with the cattle. My favorites are a big black stallion and a big chestnut.


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## Reinercrazy

AnnaLover said:


> I am really considering Tuff Little Drifter.. but at this guy's house where we do sorting, he has some gorgeous foundation bred stallions that have won a lot of money and are incredible working with the cattle. My favorites are a big black stallion and a big chestnut.


And you have to do what works for you..looking at the whols package is always better...I always look at CONFORMATION, DISPOSITION,BREEDING,ACCOMPLISHMENTS & LAST COLOR when I am looking at any horse!!
I try to find the one who will give me every thing I listed above!


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## nrhareiner

You can also start out with a mare who will guarantee you to only produce one color. Then add in the dilute to get a buckskin.

I have a very nice well bred proven mare who will only produce one color and the only way to get something different is to breed her to a dilute or roan or gray. Dose take some of the fun out of it though.


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## westonsma

Have you taken a look at Powerstroke?

John Murnane is a friend of mine that I'd recommend getting a piece of if you're looking for good confo and pretty positive color. He has a grulla stallion who is AQHA/ABRA registered, and has a supreme champion under his belt, which is as high an award you can get in the registry. With all of Powerstroke's accomplishments, he has awards equivalent (if not better) than the original Bar Money. I think the site is to promote his sire, Bar Money Sunny, the buckskin legend, but if you click on the offspring page, you can see what his line has proven to be.

www.barmoneysunny.com

I mentioned in another post that I was going to try to produce some pictures of some babies that belong to my friend Kevin, who are by Powerstroke.

Ok, you'll have to click here, his site is down. (He's an old man, may have just done away with it.)

bar money sunny - Google Images

The third picture over, a smooty buckskin is Bar Money Sunny, and the grulla (5th picture over) is Powerstroke. (His tail was bagged.) The first 3 pictures there and the grulla are all out of Sunny. 

Sunny also sired:
JJM Bar Money
JJM Sunny Dude
JJM Sunnys Pine
JJM Sunnys Hope
JJM Sunnys Faith
JJM Sunnys Gretchen

Here is a picture of my own horse, Titan, and JJM Sunnys Hope and JJM Sunnys Gretchen, whom my husband and I put rides 30-90 on.


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## westonsma

Oh, and Kevin, the friend we buy our horses from, has 5 or 8 of John's best mares (John's trying to get out of the business due to age, but is having a hard time letting them go!) that he bought from John last year, but John came back and bought 3 of Kevin's babies... if that says anything about their quality. Kevin's only stallion is JJM Sunnys Star, a buckskin that went gray and is a solid steel-gray with all the buckskin points (He does have factor, leg barring and a dorsal stripe, btw.)

You'll never work with a more honest man than John. He is probably one of the kindest hearted people I've met in my life, and if you don't get what you want, he'll make it right with you. Anyway, he's a great guy to work with, or at the very least spend an afternoon with, and he's devoted to producing great-minded color!


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## westonsma

Sorry for so many posts!

Here's another site for some of Sunny's progeny. 

Buckskin_Stallions

JJM Brooksundun is homozygous for black points, so something you might consider with your mare... 

Also, take a look at his mares page... some are from Sunny too... ; )


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## nrhareiner

westonsma said:


> Sorry for so many posts!
> 
> Here's another site for some of Sunny's progeny.
> 
> Buckskin_Stallions
> 
> JJM Brooksundun is homozygous for black points, so something you might consider with your mare...
> 
> Also, take a look at his mares page... some are from Sunny too... ; )


First thing I would look at on the one stallion is his HERDA status. There is nothing listed and since it looks like they have his color test it is not that they have not tested him for something. Poco Strip is a KNOWN carrier. To me that scrams color breeder. Anytime you know what your horses genetic color make up is and not their HERDA status. I tend to run.


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## westonsma

Have You Heard of HERDA? (Illini HorseNet) — University of Illinois Extension

Here's what I found on HERDA. This article mentions that both parents of the produced foal must be carriers for the possibility of an infection, which then would be a 25% chance of infection, 50% carrier, 25% chance of normal genes. 

With the fact that Poco Stripe is a known carrier, you must then look at the dam's bloodlines. Poco Stripe being a carrier, he's in the 50th percentile of carrying the gene.

According to Jjm Brooksundun Quarter Horse, Poco King Stripe's dam is King bred, which is a foundation line that is NOT listed on the page, so the resulting foal (Poco King Stripe) would have a 25% chance of being a carrier, and a 75% chance of being genetically normal. 

Brooks' dam is Three Bars bred, again, a bloodline that is non-affected, at this point in time, anyway. So chances for Brooks are that he only has a 12.5% chance of being a carrier, and if he's bred to a mare outside his lines, the foal only has a 6.25% chance of being a carrier. 

I can't say whether or not he's been tested, but if I were the owner, I would find it reasonable to assume that he's not a carrier. Based solely on the fact that he does have progeny out of mares that could be carriers as well.

Because of Brooks' breeding, he has a 6.25% chance of passing on the gene, and because there haven't been any cases directly from his lineage, I would assume that it's been bred out of him.

But there again, he COULD be a carrier. But not to scare anyone away. Anyway, I wasn't trying to necessarily promote him, just the stuff that John's program throws.

Thanks for the info... I had no idea!


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## nrhareiner

Poco Strip IS a carrier (100%) so His son Poco King Strip has a 50% chance of being a carrier and his grandson JJM Brooksundunhas a 25% chance of being a carrier. ALL his foals have a 12.5% chance of being a carrier.

However when it comes down to it either he is or he is not. With out testing you can not know and I would not breed to a stallion who was not at the very least tested. I gelded a very nice proven reining stallion. Proven sire and dam. G-son of Doc O'Lena out of a G-daughter of Peppy San. B/C he was a carrier. Same chance as this guy. I gelding him b/c although he was very nice and his foals where even better he was not all that to keep intact as a carrier. I also have the same feeling about this guy. Nice but not enough to keep him intact as a carrier. There are a few carrier out there that are nice enough to breed as carriers but they are few and far between. This is not one of them.


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## nrhareiner

I also wanted to say that I have seen pedigrees of horses who are afflicted with HERDA. It takes 2 to get an affliced foal. Sire was 4 generations back to Doc O'Lena (known carrier) and 9 generations back to Poco Bueno bottom side. Do you know what the cances are that both the sire and dam would be carriers little lone produce an afflicted foal??? Less then 1% yet it happened. This was not an isolated insidence either.


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## westonsma

Doc O'Lena and poco aren't the only lines affected. It may not even be from Poco Stripe's sire, it could be from his dam. 

The article says, "However, this is inaccurate as several HERDA affected horses have been identified that had absolute no Doc O'Lena blood in their pedigrees."

And my math is correct. Even though Stripe WAS a carrier, he still only had a 50% of carrying the gene from his parents, which would in turn make Brooks' progeny 6.25%.

To save the argument, I will call Kevin. I have two horses, my black mare, Raving Tari, and a black gelding, Bobby Brooksundun, both out of Brooks. I'll see if Kevin knows anything, and possibly call the Ratcliffe's myself to ask, because now I'm really curious!

: )


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## nrhareiner

Poco Stripe DID get HERDA gene from his sire. Poco Bueno. This is now prity much a given fact.

Once a horse is a carrier he is back at 100%. Yes it was a 50% chance that he would get it but once he has it he is back to 100%. So his get have a 50% chance of being a carrier. His grand get would be at 25% chance. Which is the horse you are looking at breeding too. Once a horse is determined to be a carrier they go back to 100%.

Example.
Poco Queen May Quarter Horse

This mare has a 25% chance of being a carrier. I have never tested her as I stopped breeding her before the test came out. However I am about 75% sure she is a carrier. So that would make her 100% and all her produce have a 50% chance of being a carrier. I have one mare out of her. I have tested her and she is Neg. The mare out of the Old Poco mare (assuming that Sara is a carrier) would not have a 50% chance of being a carrier.

Same with the stallion I had. He has a 25% chance of being a carrier as he was a g-son of Doc O'Lena (known carrier). After testing he went from 25% to 100%. All his foals had now a 50% chance of being a carrier.


Also the stallion you posted also is double bred Poco Bueno as he also goes back tail line. So add that in too.


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## westonsma

But, just because he IS a proven carrier, does not mean that he will pass the gene. If he were 100% carrier, that would mean that both of his parents were carriers and he would actually be infected with the disease.

There is still a 50% chance he will not pass the gene to his progeny. There is now a 25% chance since he still carries 2 genes from his dam and 1 gene from his sire that doesn't have the disorder. So he cannot be 100%.

I look at it this way. Gene a is the carrier, and a recessive gene. Gene B is a non-carrier. Because Poco Stripe was not diagnosed with the disease, but rather labeled as a carrier, he has genes aB.

His dam is unrelated, and no such claims have been brought to light in her line. So the dam carries BB.

This makes Poco King Stripe's genetic makeup aBBB. That's a 25% chance. The mare King was bred to (Brooks' sire) is not a carrier either, so Brooks' genetic makeup would be aBBB - BBBB, and as long as he is bred to a BBBB mare, he would produce aBBB-BBBB-BBBB-BBBB foals. A 6.25%.

Either way, I called Kevin, and he said that Brooks was examined during his genetics testing for homozygous black, and is NOT a carrier. 

Kevin also made a valid point that AQHA does the testing during the genetics testing, and if a horse's lineage was anything to be concerned with, AQHA would have made the owners aware, and status would be put on the horse's paper such the same as HYPP.

But again, that's only ONE of the horses that are from Bar Money Sunny, whose son, Powerstroke, (is a half-brother to Brooks) who I was originally promoting anyway. Like I said, I, myself, own two horses out of Brooks, and they're awesome if I do say so myself.


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## nrhareiner

westonsma said:


> But, just because he IS a proven carrier, does not mean that he will pass the gene. If he were 100% carrier, that would mean that both of his parents were carriers and he would actually be infected with the disease.
> 
> *NO that is not what it means. HERDA is a recessive genetic disorder. Meaning one copy of the gene the horse is a carrier and NOT affliced. (100% carrier and will pass it 50% of the time) 2 copies meaning both sire and dam much be a carrier and that horse is afflicted and actually has HERDA. They will pass the gene 100% of the time if bred.*
> 
> There is still a 50% chance he will not pass the gene to his progeny. There is now a 25% chance since he still carries 2 genes from his dam and 1 gene from his sire that doesn't have the disorder. So he cannot be 100%.
> 
> *No you need to learn genetices. A foal gets ONLY one copy of a gene from his sire and ONLY one dam. So Poco Stripe has once good copy of the needed gene (from his dam) and one HERDA gene (from his sire Poco Bueno). He (Poco Stripe) will pass HERDA 50% of the time. Now just like any thing that will vary but if geven enough foals it will average out to be that.*
> 
> I look at it this way. Gene a is the carrier, and a recessive gene. Gene B is a non-carrier. Because Poco Stripe was not diagnosed with the disease, but rather labeled as a carrier, he has genes aB.
> 
> His dam is unrelated, and no such claims have been brought to light in her line. So the dam carries BB.
> 
> This makes Poco King Stripe's genetic makeup aBBB. That's a 25% chance. The mare King was bred to (Brooks' sire) is not a carrier either, so Brooks' genetic makeup would be aBBB - BBBB, and as long as he is bred to a BBBB mare, he would produce aBBB-BBBB-BBBB-BBBB foals. A 6.25%.
> 
> *Again. NO. Poco Strip is N/H His sire Poco Bueno was N/H and his dam wan N/N meaning not a carrier. He got the H from his sire and the N from his dam. So he is N/H. Now if he was bred to an N/N horse the resulting foal would have a 50 % chance of getting that H from their sire. dam is not a carrier so no chance. *
> 
> Either way, I called Kevin, and he said that Brooks was examined during his genetics testing for homozygous black, and is NOT a carrier.
> 
> 
> *Being examined will not tell you if he is a carrier only if he is affliced. The only way to know if a horse is a carrier is to have a genetic test. If he was tested they why is it not on their site. I would want to see the results from UC Davis to make certain.*
> 
> Kevin also made a valid point that AQHA does the testing during the genetics testing, and if a horse's lineage was anything to be concerned with, AQHA would have made the owners aware, and status would be put on the horse's paper such the same as HYPP.
> *
> NO not at this time AQHA is NOT requiering testing for HERDA like they do HyPP.
> *
> But again, that's only ONE of the horses that are from Bar Money Sunny, whose son, Powerstroke, (is a half-brother to Brooks) who I was originally promoting anyway. Like I said, I, myself, own two horses out of Brooks, and they're awesome if I do say so myself.


They may be great horses. However if they trace to Poco Bueno no matter how far back they NEED to be tested. I have a mare who has less then a 1% chance of being a carrier and she is tested. I do not care if it is that fare back or not.


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## westonsma

*correction!*

I took too long to edit. Some of the information in my PP is incorrect, and I will make any corrections/additions in bold. 




westonsma said:


> *Even if both of his parents were carriers, he would have a 50% chance of passing on the gene.*
> 
> There is still a 50% chance *HE* will not pass the gene to his progeny.
> 
> 
> 
> *When Poco Stripe is bred to a non-carrier, there would be a 25% chance the progeny between them will carry the disease since the progeny will carry 2 chances from his dam and 1 chance from his sire that the progeny doesn't have the disorder.
> *
> This makes *Poco Stripe's *genetic makeup aBBB. That's a 25% chance* that HIS progeny will carry (Poco King Stripe)*. The mare King was bred to (Brooks' sire) is not a carrier either, so *King's *genetic makeup would be aBBB *x* BBBB, and as long as he is bred to a BBBB mare, he would produce aBBB-BBBB *x* BBBB-BBBB *to Brooks' generation, which would mean that when Brooks is bred to a non-carrier, he will produce aBBB-BBBB-BBBB-BBBB x BBBB-BBBB-BBBB-BBBB* foals. A 6.25%.


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## nrhareiner

A FOAL DOSE NOT GET 2 copies from his dam and one for his sire. One from each.

Each one of Poco Strips foals have a 50% chance of being a carrier.

Say sire is N/H (carrier of HERDA) bred to a mare who is N/N not a carrier.

The resuling foals would be this. N/N, N/N, N/H, N/H. 50% chance of being clear and 50% chance of being a carrier.

Ok lets put it in anouther perspective. From your avitar you have paints.

Lets say you breed a Paint stallion. Heterozygous (only one copy) for the paint markings to a solid mare. No copies for paint. The resulting foal will have a 50% chance of being a pain. They get one copy from their sire and one from their dam. *IF* the sire pass on his *ONE* copy of the Paint gene the resulting foal will be a paint. If not it will be solid. Same with HERDA. 

Now lets say that each horse is a paint. Then you have you have a 25% chance of a solid (non carrier) 50% chance of being Heterozygous (only one gene) but still a paint. and a 25% chance of being Homozygous paint. Meaning 2 copies of the paint gene. All the foals from this horse would be a paint no matter what they where bred too. Meaning they would have one copy from that horse.


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## westonsma

nrhareiner said:


> Lets say you breed a Paint stallion. Heterozygous (only one copy) for the paint markings to a solid mare. No copies for paint. The resulting foal will have a 50% chance of being a pain. They get one copy from their sire and one from their dam. *IF* the sire pass on his *ONE* copy of the Paint gene the resulting foal will be a paint. If not it will be solid. Same with HERDA.


Paint genes are dominant genes. Not the same. This gene is autosomal recessive gene, and I'm going off of punnet squares.


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## nrhareiner

Then you see that a carrier has a 50% chance of passing it. Takes only one gene to be a carrier and 2 to be afflicted.

Also when it comes to inheritances it is the same. There is a 50% chance it will pass. The only difference is that it will show where HERDA will not.


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## nrhareiner

So by your way of figuring it what are the chances this horse is a carrier??

Gordon Double Lena Quarter Horse


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## crunchberrysmom

westonsma said:


> Either way, I called Kevin, and he said that Brooks was examined during his genetics testing for homozygous black, and is NOT a carrier.
> 
> Kevin also made a valid point that AQHA does the testing during the genetics testing, and if a horse's lineage was anything to be concerned with, *AQHA would have made the owners aware, and status would be put on the horse's paper such the same as HYPP.*


Since when? I had no idea AQHA had begun marking papers for HERDA. :wink:


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## nrhareiner

crunchberrysmom said:


> Since when? I had no idea AQHA had begun marking papers for HERDA. :wink:



They have not. I talked to them about 2 months ago about it and they have no plans to do so either.


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## tempest

My RI got a buckskin by breeding a black horse with a palomino.


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## FGRanch

AQHA does NOT require any herda testing at all at this time, and they don't plan to anytime in the near future. 

Here is a great link to read, you'll learn alot of Herda from this. 

AQHA Australian Quarter Horse Association

Herda comes from the that horse sire. 

Pasted from Wikipedia: 

Affected horses have been found to trace to the stallion Poco Bueno, or possibly, farther back to one of his ancestors.[2] Researchers have now named four deceased Quarter Horse stallions that were carriers and produced at least one affacted HERDA foal; they are Dry Doc, Doc O'Lena, Great Pine, and Zippo Pine Bar. These stallions all trace to Poco Bueno through his son and daughter Poco Pine and Poco Lena. Other breeds affected are the American Paint Horse (APHA), and the Appaloosa (ApHC) and any other breed registry that allows outcrossing to AQHA horses.


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## westonsma

Kevin also made a valid point that AQHA does the testing during the genetics testing, and if a horse's lineage was anything to be concerned with, *AQHA would have made the owners aware, and status would be put on the horse's paper such the same as HYPP.*

*I should have made that a new sentence. If a horse's lineage was anything to be concerned with, AQHA would have made the owners aware, and status would be put on the horse's papers such the same as HYPP.*

*If it REALLY was such a concern in every horse from that line, it would be required like all Impressive bred horses are, to be tested to prevent the disease from being passed. So, I'm sure, if it's as big a concern as YOU made it out to be, AQHA and APHA would be doing something to control/monitor it.*

*I don't really know why we're still talking about this, I was promoting Bar Money Sunny. This horse isn't even related to him. *

*If you'd like some more info on Bar Money Sunny or JJM Powerstroke, please, let me know.*


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## westonsma

BTW, here's how I was figuring.

Poco Stripe = will give the gene to 50%
Poco King Stripe = could give the gene to 25%
JJM Brooksundun = could give to 12.5%
JJM Brooksundun = could give to 6.25%


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## westonsma

westonsma said:


> BTW, here's how I was figuring.
> 
> Poco Stripe = will give the gene to 50%
> Poco King Stripe = could give the gene to 25%
> JJM Brooksundun = could give to 12.5%
> *JJM Brooksundun's colts* = could give to 6.25%


Correction...


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## nrhareiner

westonsma said:


> BTW, here's how I was figuring.
> 
> Poco Stripe = will give the gene to 50%
> Poco King Stripe = could give the gene to 25%
> JJM Brooksundun = could give to 12.5%
> JJM Brooksundun = could give to 6.25%



Again get your facts straight. That is not how you figure a horses chances of being a carrier. 


Poco Stripe = will give the gene to 100% HE IS A CARRIER. He has the gene so he will past it 50% of the time.
Poco King Stripe = could give the gene to 50% chance of being a carrier.
JJM Brooksundun = could give to 25% chance of being a carrier.
JJM Brooksundun = could give to 12.5% chance of being a carrier.

Is this a big deal. Yes in a lot of respects it is. If you are breeding an animal who is a carrier then YOU NEED TO KNOW. 

Have you seen what HERDA looks like??? Take a look unlike HyPP it is not something a horse can live with.

As for AQHA. Well lets just say they are behind the times. Look how long it took them to require HyPP to be put on the papers. There is a process that rule changes MUST go through to get the info on the papers. If no one brings it up at the convention it dose not get discused and the rule dose not get changed.

Why am I still on this. B/C YOU posted a link to a horse who has a 25% chance of being a HERDA carrier. Dose not matter if that was the horse you are promoting or not. Fact is that he is there and dose not look like he has been tested. WHICH HE NEEDS TO BE. Also you are giving BAD info. So until you get that I will keep correcting your. YOU need to learn basic genetics and how things are passed. 

When it comes down to it in reality. Each horse who has not been tested has a 50% chance of being a carrier in the fact that they either have it or they do not.

Anyway. ANY horse no matter how far back to Poco Bueno NEEDS to be tested befor they are EVER bred.


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## westonsma

nrhareiner said:


> Again get your facts straight. That is not how you figure a horses chances of being a carrier.
> 
> Poco Stripe = will give the gene to 100% HE IS A CARRIER. He has the gene so he will past it 50% of the time.
> 
> *You contradict yourself there... will he give it to 100%? Or 50%? There is NO way to give the carrying gene to 100% of his foals unless he is afflicted.*
> 
> Poco King Stripe = *HAS a* 50% chance of being a carrier.
> JJM Brooksundun = *HAS a* 25% chance of being a carrier.
> JJM Brooksundun = *HAS a *12.5% chance of being a carrier.
> 
> As for AQHA. Well lets just say they are behind the times. Look how long it took them to require HyPP to be put on the papers. There is a process that rule changes MUST go through to get the info on the papers. If no one brings it up at the convention it dose not get discused and the rule dose not get changed.
> 
> *I just don't understand why, if it's THAT prominent a disease and they have spent the money researching, why a requirement hasn't been made?*
> 
> Why am I still on this. B/C YOU posted a link to a horse who has a *12.5*% chance of being a HERDA carrier. Dose not matter if that was the horse you are promoting or not. Fact is that he is there and dose not look like he has been tested. WHICH HE NEEDS TO BE. Also you are giving BAD info. So until you get that I will keep correcting your. YOU need to learn basic genetics and how things are passed.
> 
> *My link was posted to show a picture of JJM Bar Money. So back off the link, and stop bashing a family you don't know. And you can keep trolling me if you want, I'm really not interested in your petty argument, because you, yourself need to learn basic mathematical probability and the chaotic chance. And FYI, the HERDA test has not been patented yet.*
> 
> *Poco Stripe =50% of his CAN get it.*
> *Poco King Stripe = IF he gets it, it can be passed to 50% of his.*
> *JJM Brooksundun = IF HE gets it, it can be passed to 50% of his.*
> *JJM Brooksundun = AND IF HE gets it, it can be passed to 50% of his.*
> 
> *Anything you could buy out of Brooks would be 50% to the (what would be 4th generation babies out of Brooks) 4th power, which is 6.25%.*


I'm moving to the next topic.


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## nrhareiner

Again you do not talk about the chance of passing it. As there is only 2 things there. Either 50% chance of passing it or a 0% chance. They are a carrier or they are not. 

SO a carrier starts out at 100%. They have the gene. They will pass is 50% of the time. So the next generations basically has a 50% chance of being a carrier. This is true no matter what trat you are talking about HERDA HyPP a given Color. Dose not matter. If you have a pally he is 100% pally. He carries the gene. He has a 50% chance of passing it. They next generation has a 50% chance of being pally. Since you can see it if it there you know with out testing. SO you KNOW with out the test that there is either a 50% chance of passing it or 0% chance. Same with HERDA except you can not see it.

This is where TESTING COMES IN. THAT HORSE NEEDS TO BE TESTED. Plane and simple.

When it comes to genetices you do not take in terms of chance of passing it but chanced of getting it. 

You should really know how to figur this b/c you are more or less from what I can see a foundation type breeder. It is calculated the same wall. He is not said to have a 12.5% chance of passing Poco Stripe but he is 25% Poco Stripe.


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## nrhareiner

Also if you think HERDA is not a big deal b/c AQHA has not required testing then you must also think HyPP is not a bad thing either and would breed an N/H or H/H horse.

Although I do not look at HERDA the same way I do HyPP I still firmly believe that every horse should be tested when needed (everything with Poco Bueno in their pedigree).


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## goodhrs

smrobs said:


> Another thing that bugs me about Pocos Blue Eyed King is; if he has such perfect conformation, why don't they have any full body pix of him??


I have seen his foals and they are really nice and good minded.


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## goodhrs

nrhareiner said:


> Anyway. ANY horse no matter how far back to Poco Bueno NEEDS to be tested before they are EVER bred.


 I agree, any responsible breeder would do their very best to improve the line and product healthy get physically & mentally. I the wild they would die out and the gene would not continue. It's human intervention that cause's alot of the genetic issues we are dealing with today. JMO


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## Plains Drifter

kiwigirl said:


> Please excuse my ignorance. I have always read (in english horse books) that a dun is a light brown/cream coat with dark points. Later on in life I came across the term Buckskin which sounded like another term for dun. I thought that buckskin is the American term and dun is the English term for the same colouring. Could someone clarify the colour differences for me please.


 
Thought I'd post these..hope no one minds.

This is my horse Lillie. She's registered as a Dun. I actually thought she was a buckskin or a buckskin dun. This picture was taken in overcast skies and in the fall of this year.











This is Lillie also..taken in sunlight and in the spring of this year.









This is her dad. He's registered as a buckskin.









This is her mom. She's registered as a dun.


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## kiwigirl

Thanks Plains Drifter. I have a pic of my friend on her horse Barnes, it is not a great pic but you can see how pale he is. He is a very light cream with dark points, what would he be classed as on an official register?


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## Plains Drifter

I'd assume because of his dark points he'd be considered a buckskin. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.


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## RadHenry09

Sorry if this is a little off of the subject , but this has been bugging me for days ...lol


While Radar is a Dun (dorsal with no white markings and black points) another boarder at my barn has a horse who is lighter than him with a dorsal but has a white blaze and white on his legs.
I dont have a pic of him but am I correct in thinking that he isnt a dun but more of a Dunskin? 

Here is a pic of Radar (my boy)


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## nrhareiner

Yes a horse can be both. They can carry the dun gene or the cream gene or both.


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## AnnaLover

Just for an update, I am breeding my mare in February to Docs JW Perfection for a January foal


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## thunderhooves

^^ congrats!


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## AnnaLover

Thanks


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## Plains Drifter

AnnaLover said:


> Just for an update, I am breeding my mare in February to Docs JW Perfection for a January foal


Do you have a photo?


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## Abbygirl

I have a bay mare that had a buckskin filly. The sire was buckskin.


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## AnnaLover

Plains Drifter said:


> Do you have a photo?


JW? Sadly, I don't  I will try to get one though...

Anyways, we (my sister, her friend, my mom and I) went to my trainer's house this morning to do some penning and we got talking and since my trainer absolutely adores Penny, he thinks we should breed her. If we did, he would want to breed her to his other red dun stud because JW has big foals and he thinks Penny's too petite for them. 
Also, my trainer was riding one of JW's fillys and she look so much like her daddy! She is gorgeous and so muscular at only 4 years old. 
Then we were all talking about the breeding situation earlier and my mom came up with the idea to breed both Anna AND Penny..... Wow.. how cool would that be?! We would sell one of the foals, keep the better one. Well, I suppose we have until February to figure it out...!


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## AnnaLover

^^ Gorgeous mare and foal BTW!


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## barnprincess

Look up zillionaire he produce buckskin or pallys to a chestnut mare. his sf without a guarentee was $1500 i think . 2500 guarenteed. and look at http://www.blazingcoloursfarm.com/ her studs , i think more than one also produces what you are looking for.


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## AnnaLover

How can the owners decide to guarantee color or not??


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## barnprincess

they do gene testing. most stallions with these passing on's are guarenteed proven color producers.


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## nrhareiner

Sometimes it nothing more then an advertising ploy. I did it for a few years to get certain mares into my stallion. Even though it was all up to the mares for those colors. It is just a way to get some good mares in. I had several restrictions on the deal not just more money.


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