# Nose chain.



## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

I had to use a stud chain with my old gelding because he absolutely would not listen to a regular lunge line clipped to his halter. The stud chain gives you more leverage if they aren't listening, kind of like the difference between walking your dog with a choke chain verses a flat collar. The problem with a stud chain is that it kind of becomes a crutch for you. The horse knows when the stud chain isn't on and knows that you can't gain as much leverage if it's not on, so they stop listening. 

When I had this problem with my gelding, the solution I figured out was quite simple. I would always give him three chances to do something I asked. The first time, I asked nicely. The second time, I asked a little more insistently. The third time, I MADE him do what I asked. How does this translate into using the stud chain with a lunge line? Simple. Once you get your basic commands established, add a little wiggle with the lunge line when you ask. If you have to ask a second time, make that wiggle a little harder or maybe even tug slightly on the line. If you have to ask a third time, start with the wiggle, then MAKE the horse do what you asked. Pretty soon, they'll connect the wiggle with being asked nicely and will usually respond immediately because they don't want to have to be made to do it. Yes, you'll still need to put the stud chain on probably, but you won't have to use it.


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## Cleffapuff (Sep 6, 2010)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I had to use a stud chain with my old gelding because he absolutely would not listen to a regular lunge line clipped to his halter. The stud chain gives you more leverage if they aren't listening, kind of like the difference between walking your dog with a choke chain verses a flat collar. The problem with a stud chain is that it kind of becomes a crutch for you. The horse knows when the stud chain isn't on and knows that you can't gain as much leverage if it's not on, so they stop listening.
> 
> When I had this problem with my gelding, the solution I figured out was quite simple. I would always give him three chances to do something I asked. The first time, I asked nicely. The second time, I asked a little more insistently. The third time, I MADE him do what I asked. How does this translate into using the stud chain with a lunge line? Simple. Once you get your basic commands established, add a little wiggle with the lunge line when you ask. If you have to ask a second time, make that wiggle a little harder or maybe even tug slightly on the line. If you have to ask a third time, start with the wiggle, then MAKE the horse do what you asked. Pretty soon, they'll connect the wiggle with being asked nicely and will usually respond immediately because they don't want to have to be made to do it. Yes, you'll still need to put the stud chain on probably, but you won't have to use it.


Alright  
I'll try that! Thank you!


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Cleffapuff said:


> Alright
> I'll try that! Thank you!


You're welcome.  

Just make sure that there is a distinct difference between your three levels (ask, ask harder and make), or else it will confuse and frustrate your horse.


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## Lauren Woodard (Jul 7, 2010)

Cleffapuff, I hope you'll give your question a bit more thought. Ask yourself what you would do if you were the horse. How do you respond to force? 
What constitutes force is individual. You don't really get to decide what your horse thinks is force and what isn't. That's his deal. But a mechanical means to an end rarely results in the desired response. Just ask yourself. And if someone used an item of force to obtain a result and then didn't use the item, wouldn't you do what you wanted if you could? Horses aren't stupid. They completely cognizant of these facts. As Abe Lincoln said, " Force is all conquering, but its victories are short-lived. –Abe Lincoln


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I often work my horse at liberty and what I've discovered is he's become light as a feather when on halter. When I lunge him at liberrty I'll ask for a whoa (verbal). If he keeps going, that's ok cause it's him doing the work, not me. I'll encourage him onward then again ask for a whoa. I just keep this up until he'd like to stop and face me. I use this to reinforce whoa. We'll do something else then come back to this and repeat. Usually the whoa is better the second session. And so on. We can't assume they understand what we want. More force means less training, ie make a horse do something and when the chips are down he will fail you.


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## alee (Mar 20, 2011)

Well put, Saddlebag! A chain is not the answer! If you are lunging and your horse does not want to stop, then let him keep going forward, but make it your idea. Ask him to move on by clucking to show that you are the one saying keep moving. Then ask for a stop again, if he does want to stop, ask him to move on with a little more energy. The idea that you are trying to get across to your horse is that if you don't listen to me, you are going to have to work harder. When you ask for the stop use the same cues every time, like a soothing voice and a relaxed body. When he stops let him rest to show that he did the right thing. 

Do you know how to get him to change directions while on the line? Changing directions frequently keeps his attention on you.

More force is never the answer. Work on the training, because Saddlebag is so right, you need your horse to respect you, not fear pain, in order to have a safe, reliable horse.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I would never , never lunge in a stud chain. It is too hard to make any kind of correction without it being overly harsh and making it really hard to make any sort of communication of a smaller degree. Also, if you drop the line, and the horse steps on it, or becomes entangled , you could have him accidently break his own nose.

Let him work out some of his yayas. use the change of direction. If you must pull hard on the line, pull upward, not downward and use a few sharp snaps to get his attention and pull his nose around, but you can't do this iwth a chain on. Well, I wouldn't.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

alee, what's the thinking behind unsuccessfully asking your horse to stop, then confirming that you didn't actually mean "stop" by telling the horse to go more forward?


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## AmazinCaucasian (Dec 10, 2010)

christopher said:


> alee, what's the thinking behind unsuccessfully asking your horse to stop, then confirming that you didn't actually mean "stop" by telling the horse to go more forward?


SHHHHHHH...............keep it down........they're horse whispering


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

oh, my mistake.

but in all seriousness, it simply comes down to following through with what you ask for. if it takes a nose chain to do that, so be it. a key thing to remember though is to use whatever equipment you choose too use as little as possible while remaining effective.


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

christopher said:


> alee, what's the thinking behind unsuccessfully asking your horse to stop, then confirming that you didn't actually mean "stop" by telling the horse to go more forward?





alee said:


> ... *The idea that you are trying to get across to your horse is that if you don't listen to me, you are going to have to work harder*...


 Personally, I would not use a chain in the first place. If you need to use one, there is something missing in their training called respect. 

I've dealt with 2 TBs that everyone at the stable was told to use stud chains with. I didn't. Even though I rarely dealt with them, I only had one time that they gave me a problem. One tried to rear and pull away. All I did was to make them move the direction I wanted and never had another problem


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

if horses truly perceived moving forward as more work (mentally) and stopping as less work (mentally), then surely disobediences like this (a mental one leading to a physical one, not vice versa) wouldn't exist.


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

christopher said:


> but in all seriousness, it simply comes down to following through with what you ask for.


I'm not saying you're wrong but you're not completely right.

What I get from what you are saying is that you are telling the horse, "Do it because I said so." If the horse doesn't know there are consequences for not listening, it won't work.

You still are following through but you are making the horse work before you ask again. You're not letting the horse just go on it's own but actually do some work. If it's walking or trotting, you'd make it get up into a lope. If it's already loping, make it lope faster. Then you ask for a stop and let the horse rest. The rest is the reward for listening.


christopher said:


> if horses truly perceived moving forward as more work (mentally) and stopping as less work (mentally), then surely disobediences like this (a mental one leading to a physical one, not vice versa) wouldn't exist.


 Some horses don't see moving forward as more work, such as a nervous or high strung horse or breeds like Arabians. Those I would be doing changes of direction instead of moving forward. To other horses, moving forward does equal work, when you make them put some energy into it.

As for it being a disobedience, it might not be. The horse might be challenging to see what the OP will do if it doesn't listen, a disobedience. It might not understand the cue or not know that if it doesn't listen, there is a punishment/reprimand. But how do you teach that to a horse? You can't spank it if it's still moving and if you wait until it does stop, it's to late. Not saying I would spank a horse. You could yell at it but that wouldn't do any good. Tie it up or turn it back out? Nope. So what's left? Make the horse work and work hard.


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

Cleffapuff said:


> Ok, so I recently bought a nose chain because I heard it help keep them in line and you could yank on it if they were being naughty or disrespectful. I'll lunge them until they stop to look at me to listen, and then we'll work on completely stopping when I say "whoa" and backing up.
> But when I take the chain off they don't listen to the commands like they did when the chain was on.
> We haven't been working on this for very long, but I don't know why they don't listen when the chain is off...
> Any ideas on what to do?


It does not sound like you are very experienced with horses. I would encourage you to find a mentor and/or trainer who can work with you so that you can have a resource for better guidance than "hearing you can yank on it if they are being naughty" an deciding to give it a shot -- that sort of approach is how horses and humans get hurt. You would also have been given a better explanation of when it is/isn't appropriate to use this sort of device - ie not when lunging.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

tinyliny said:


> I would never , never lunge in a stud chain. It is too hard to make any kind of correction without it being overly harsh and making it really hard to make any sort of communication of a smaller degree. Also, if you drop the line, and the horse steps on it, or becomes entangled , you could have him accidently break his own nose..


This. I never like seeing a horse lunged in a chain, ever.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

The only time I ever have--or ever would--use a chain when longeing is by doing it my own "incorrect," but effective, impromptu way. I take the chain, run it through the bottom loop of the halter (where you clip the lead rope), run it through one of the side rings, then over the nose (wrapping it 1-3 times around the noseband of the halter), then through the other side ring, finally finding something to attach the end to. Then I attach my longeline both to the chain AND to the bottom halter ring. In this way, the chain cannot tighten. Light pressure on the halter has little effect, but if the horse decides to blow and bolt, as some of mine had figured out they could do, I have the leverage of the chain that I can pull against to get them back under control. It's not a jerk; it's just steady pressure. The same concept as a rope halter with knots. As soon as they come back to me, I can ease up on the longeline and there is no residual tightening or pressure.


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

I've never heard of anyone lunging in a chain. I guess if the horse is really bad you might use it. I would think you would work on other things 1st with a horse behaving that way before you lunged them on a line. Maybe start them in a round pen off lead 1st. 
I've only seen folks use stud chains on horses that have a tendency come in on you or rear up when you lead them.
I would guess that if the horse doesn't listen to you once the chain is off then he wasn't listening to you when it was on. He is probably just responding to the chain not you.
You want to use the chain to reinforce the cue, not use it as the cue. Like another poster said before "ask 1st then correct".


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## Cleffapuff (Sep 6, 2010)

themacpack said:


> It does not sound like you are very experienced with horses. I would encourage you to find a mentor and/or trainer who can work with you so that you can have a resource for better guidance than "hearing you can yank on it if they are being naughty" an deciding to give it a shot -- that sort of approach is how horses and humans get hurt. You would also have been given a better explanation of when it is/isn't appropriate to use this sort of device - ie not when lunging.


You can say what you want, but it has worked.
No I'm not very experienced, and the horses aren't either, that's why we are both learning.


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## Tianimalz (Jan 6, 2009)

Lunging with a chain sounds incredibly painful.... horses are very sensitive around their noses. I think you need to relook your training methods; and I mean that in the politest way possible. Your horse needs to learn to respect you, and hurting him won't gain that respect, it'll gain resentment and him looking for ways to outmaneuver you. If you are having trouble, why don't you find someone more experienced and start over again with a subtle rope halter? 

I think you'll like the results of softer handling (no, not letting him get away with being *naughty* but not pulling on his nose with a chain either) than man handling him.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Cleffapuff said:


> You can say what you want, but it has worked.
> No I'm not very experienced, and the horses aren't either, that's why we are both learning.


 
Lunging is not nearly as easy as it would appear. I mean , yes, you can run a horse in circles around and around and let him run/buck off his ya-yas. But really lunging for training is a bit more challengeing. I dont' think it's unreasonable to ask for actual hands on help when learning how to do it. There are so many ways for it to go wrong and make things hard for you or the horse. Like riding, there are all kinds of skill levels with lunging and one can continue to learn a lot from more experienced lungers.

Once I took a purely lunging only riding lesson from a pro. I was amazed at the difference between how she moved the hrose and how I did. She was a master at it, me a monkey imitating her. But, I got a bit better by imitating her. Was worth every dollar I paid her.

Just a quick note here, one thing she taught me is to really think of the lunge line as a rein. Hold it exactly as you would a rein, and close your hand on it or finger or vibrate it, just exactly as you would a rein. Slow down and sink your body weight into the saddle (you mostly kiind of visualize this , since when lunging you are standing and not in a saddle), sit up straight, (stand up, of course) over your own seatbones and knees and ankles, look up. The whole shabang.
When you ask for a halt, you halt your body, just as you would in the saddle, you close your fist on the rein, you exhale and you anchor the horse.
These are things that you would do after you had some of the basics down, but it shows how refined lunging can be.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Chains are great tools! I use them all the time. They are great for towing things and keeping your dog in the yard. I have seen people use them to keep track of thier wallets. I saw some people on another site that did things with chains that are best not mentioned here but they were interesting to say the least. 

I would NOT EVER use a chain on a horse. Any kind of horse for any reason. It is NEVER needed EVER. If you are using a chain across a horses nose you are brutalizing that horse and it should be removed from your "care". You need to educate yourself and learn a little about how to handle a horse before you do anything else.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

kevinshorses said:


> Chains are great tools! I use them all the time. They are great for towing things and keeping your dog in the yard. I have seen people use them to keep track of thier wallets. I saw some people on another site that did things with chains that are best not mentioned here but they were interesting to say the least.


Kevin I think I love you. Also, I have some chains I could show you..... :wink::twisted:


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## Cleffapuff (Sep 6, 2010)

kevinshorses said:


> Chains are great tools! I use them all the time. They are great for towing things and keeping your dog in the yard. I have seen people use them to keep track of thier wallets. I saw some people on another site that did things with chains that are best not mentioned here but they were interesting to say the least.
> 
> I would NOT EVER use a chain on a horse. Any kind of horse for any reason. It is NEVER needed EVER. If you are using a chain across a horses nose you are brutalizing that horse and it should be removed from your "care". You need to educate yourself and learn a little about how to handle a horse before you do anything else.


I only did it twice... people need to stop freaking out...
It worked. Thats all I have to say.
And besides that.. I'm not that big.. I can't cause a lot of damage.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

First of all, get someone to show you how to lunge. Second of all buy some proper equipment like a surcingle, side reins, a lunge line and lunge whip. Always lunge in a snaffle bit while you and your horse are learning. Use body language for corrections etc. 

As far as the whole lunging with a chain debate... I lunge with a chain only in the circumstance the vet or other wants to quickly see the horses gaits and I feel the horse is fresh and will just goof off on the line instead of just going around. I'm to the point with my guy that a little voice correction sets him straight (and subsequently do not use a chain) but some horses do not get there and are very fit and high strung for their jobs. However these horses are trained to lunge and their handlers are very experienced.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

Cleffapuff said:


> You can say what you want, but it has worked.
> No I'm not very experienced, and the horses aren't either, that's why we are both learning.


The question remains, though, are you learning from someone who DOES know the proper use of things, etc or are you just out there doing whatever tidbit you happen to "hear might work" from heaven knows who/where?
People do not need to stop "freaking out" ---- as they are not doing that, rather they are trying, for your benefit and, most of all your horses, to offer advice and input you clearly need to better understand what you should/shouldn't be doing and why even if in your mind it "works" it is the wrong way of approaching the problem(s) you are having.
You say you are still learning- part of learning is being able to stop defending and open your mind to what is being said.


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## Lakotababii (Nov 28, 2010)

Cleffapuff said:


> I only did it twice... people need to stop freaking out...
> It worked. Thats all I have to say.
> And besides that.. I'm not that big.. I can't cause a lot of damage.


 
Cleffapuff,
Please take any criticism with a grain of salt. It makes it go down easier  
I don't think anyone is trying to make you feel like a terrible person. I'm sure the chain did work, but as in your original post, when you took it off your horse ignored you. 

The key to training a horse is to use the subtlest cues as little as possible to get the horse to respond. Sometimes its a lot of pressure and cues, sometimes its a small amount. The key is to be teaching your horse something and not have to ask as harshly the 2nd time or 3rd or 4th etc. Always be raising the bar and try to make your cues less harsh. 

You noticed that your horse no longer listens when you take the chain off. But what you may not know is that he can and may get USED to the chain. I've seen horses that get a chain put on and they act like its nothing. They have been so accustomed to being bullied and chained that they break right through and people get hurt! This is why it is VITAL to try to make your cues light! Because then the force is there when you need it. I have had times with my gelding where he is light as a feather in the arena, but take him outside and it takes a stonger cue. Can you imagine if I had already used up my strongest cue in the arena when he was calm? He would have ignored me completely outside, and I don't blame him.

Honestly the thing that bothers me about your post is that you said "I'm not that big, I can't hurt him." Wrong. You CAN hurt him, both physically and mentally. Yes, horses are incredibly powerful animals and can hurt us easily, but that doesn't mean we cannot inflict pain on them. The art of horsemanship requires a knowledge of how a horses body works, and a humble respect for the fact that you are your horses leader and you DO determine his health and happiness. 

Chains can leave nasty scars, bruises, and can cause permanent damage to the nose IF used improperly.I do not think you will do this, but you need to understand that you could potentially. If you ever doubt this, put that same chain around your arm and have someone half your size give it a good yank. You will understand why your horse listens, cuz it does hurt! The most important thing is that you do not rely on the chain to train your horse for you, because it will never happen.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I have used chains over the nose when leading a horse, a few times. I knew that I was taking the "safe and easy shortcut", and I made that choice because I needed a horse to lead with me and didnt want to deal with trouble. But, it is a temporary fix and I am aware that one can't use the "big guns" very much without losing their effectiveness and ending up with no emergency backup tool. So, I do this very rarely.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Lakotababii said:


> Chains can leave nasty scars, bruises, and can cause permanent damage to the nose IF used improperly.


If, by used properly, you mean put across the horses nose then they will cause just as much damage used properly as they will improperly. ANY horse can learn to lead respectfully if the proper time is taken.


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## Lakotababii (Nov 28, 2010)

kevinshorses said:


> If, by used properly, you mean put across the horses nose then they will cause just as much damage used properly as they will improperly. ANY horse can learn to lead respectfully if the proper time is taken.


I agree, they definitely can. I have never used a chain for that reason. I lead in a rope halter, and I trained my gelding, even though the first time I led him he ran through my lead and I had to catch him. He has since been corrected and thus I don't need a chain. I hope OP gets the point I was trying to make. Any tool that is used improperly can injure a horse, especially chains.


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