# My horse destroys slow feeder hay nets



## CaliforniaDreaming (May 8, 2011)

I have a slow feed haynet killer too. He's a super duper easy keeper. He destroyed quite a few slowfeed haynets, and a Nibble Net.

Finally, I just gave up and splurged on a Porta Grazer.










They're not cheap. But it's been almost 2 years now, and he can kick that feeder all over the paddock, but hasn't managed to destroy it yet. It's meant not having to buy more slow feed haynets or bags, so it saved me money.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

What brand of slow feeder nets are you using?
I have found the quality ones to stand up very well, but not so much the others.
Maybe your horse is extra 'dedicated',far as chewing holes, but I have the square bale size for Charlie and Smilie, and after 3 years of use,yet to get a hole
don't put an entire square bale in, but just stuff them with either loose hay or sections of baled hay,and hang them
One is an ecco net and the other a nag bag

http://www.slowfeeder.com/blog/the-most-durable-nets-ever-used


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

I would forget the nets and make a slow-feed wood sided box...
Use heavy duty wire placed 2 directions opposite to make small hole openings and make it so the wire grids slip in and are weighted down so your sneaky smart one can't get in... 
Something along the idea of this...
https://johnwhays.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/dscn2634e.jpg
:runninghorse2:....


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## Anniemay (Nov 4, 2016)

I've had two of the original hay chix bags for about 2-3 weeks now and there haven't been any holes yet. So far they have lasted longer than any other hay bags I've tried.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

I like the box idea, wouldn't mind making a couple of those myself.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Not too sure that I would be keen on having horses eat through any wire mesh.
Even with slow feeder nets, I always give a meal of free choice hay in a feeder, with the net then, just filling in those in between feeding times
I think if horses are only fed, using slow feeder nets, there is a greater tendency for them to try to make 'enlarged 'openings, esp if there is time where there is no hay in those nets.
There already is some concern, far as dental issues, on horses fed exclusively with slow feeder methods.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Far as those boxes, the wire would need to be free floating, so that when the hay gets low in that box, horses can still get mouth fulls.
Myself, I would be concerned that a frustrated horse might paw, and have a wreak with those boxes


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## CaliforniaDreaming (May 8, 2011)

Smilie said:


> Not too sure that I would be keen on having horses eat through any wire mesh.
> Even with slow feeder nets, I always give a meal of free choice hay in a feeder, with the net then, just filling in those in between feeding times
> I think if horses are only fed, using slow feeder nets, there is a greater tendency for them to try to make 'enlarged 'openings, esp if there is time where there is no hay in those nets.
> There already is some concern, far as dental issues, on horses fed exclusively with slow feeder methods.


Yeah, I wouldn't like any wire mesh in a slow feeder. The thing I like about the porta-grazer is the plastic pan inside the tub that spins when the horse pulls hay from it. That kind of pops a tuft of hay up, and they can grab it with their teeth and lips and not even touch the pan itself. I also like how it encourages the head-down grazing position.

My horse dentist likes it too. I usually free-feed some hay for the easy keeper, but he seems to prefer his porta-grazer even over loose hay.

I like it. It works for me given my self-care schedule, and my horse is satisfied with it, i don't have to replace nets on a frequent basis. I just wish it wasn't so pricey, but oh well.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

The boxes are a decent idea, except for the wire which has been shown to cause chips on teeth. 

I currently have four different kinds of hay nets. Cheap ones, mid-range ones, and good quality ones. The cheap ones definitely fall apart pretty quickly, but the rest of them have lasted well (some are a couple of years old). I recently bought more, just because I wanted smaller holes to slow them down even more. If your horse chews even good quality hay nets, you might try the webbed ones. They work well, but the ones I have don't contain a lot of hay, and the holes are too big for my liking. Still, better than nothing, and you can double-bag to make it last longer.

Bottom line: you have to pay more to get a more durable net. Better to get the ones that don't have knots (the horses can grab those with their teeth and pull on them). That said, some horses are just destructive!


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

my mare destroyed a wire slow feeder made out of no climb. pulled and pushed on it untill she broke most the wires and welds... lasted 3 months. she has eaten 2 hey nets... yeah THAT was a fun vet call. luckily she passed it all. I have seen the ones made using thicker metal grates. Because of her aggressive eating had a bad choke and now is not aloud hay. only mush. 

im subbing though because i have 2 others who this may work for. they dont feel the need to eat 2 flakes of hay in less than 5 min.

here is one idea i have found. you can use lattice but i think a horse would just destroy the lattice.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

CaliforniaDreaming said:


> Yeah, I wouldn't like any wire mesh in a slow feeder. The thing I like about the porta-grazer is the plastic pan inside the tub that spins when the horse pulls hay from it. That kind of pops a tuft of hay up, and they can grab it with their teeth and lips and not even touch the pan itself. I also like how it encourages the head-down grazing position.
> 
> My horse dentist likes it too. I usually free-feed some hay for the easy keeper, but he seems to prefer his porta-grazer even over loose hay.
> 
> I like it. It works for me given my self-care schedule, and my horse is satisfied with it, i don't have to replace nets on a frequent basis. I just wish it wasn't so pricey, but oh well.


I also find that if you give your horses a choice, between some free choice hay and also hang some slow feeder nets, they will alternate often between the two.
I only use the nets when my horses are dry lotted. In winter, they are out where there is lots of brown grass to forage for, so I just supplement with some hay, forked off the round bale twice a day, + beet pulp


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## CaliforniaDreaming (May 8, 2011)

Smilie said:


> I also find that if you give your horses a choice, between some free choice hay and also hang some slow feeder nets, they will alternate often between the two.
> I only use the nets when my horses are dry lotted. In winter, they are out where there is lots of brown grass to forage for, so I just supplement with some hay, forked off the round bale twice a day, + beet pulp


I board in California, so dry lot is a way of life here pretty much.


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## secuono (Jul 6, 2011)

Can you feed hay when using a grazing muzzle? 
Thought I've seen that done before, but not sure if the hay was in a net or in a bin.


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

CaliforniaDreaming said:


> I have a slow feed haynet killer too. He's a super duper easy keeper. He destroyed quite a few slowfeed haynets, and a Nibble Net.
> 
> Finally, I just gave up and splurged on a Porta Grazer.
> 
> ...


Ha ha ha! My situation exactly, even down to the breed of horse!

I originally bought a net for my Percheron, Ahab, with 1" openings, but that was too small. Then I got one with 1-1/4" openings, and it was perfect. For years, he ate 17# of hay a day, no matter how full I stuffed it. One bale would last two days, unless it was extra small or big.









When Nemo came, I tried the 1" again, but he was able to suck a bale a day out of it, and then he ate a big hole in it too. I got another, same thing. I got another and put it inside of the bigger holes hay net: Nemo ate holes through both of them. So I then tried one from Handy Haynets with .5" openings, but he just sucked the hay out, and then ate a hole in it, so I got the extra strong heavy duty red net with 1" openings, but Nemo was still able to eat a bale a day. 

I then started only putting 6# of hay in twice a day, which he devoured in half an hour, and THEN ate a hole in it!

Port-A-Grazer time!









It works, and he seems to enjoy chucking it about the place. The Port-A-Grazer is more of a pain, because I have to lock Nemo in the stall, fetch the Grazer from the paddock, weigh the hay, climb down from the loft with an armful of hay, and stuff it in. Also, his paddock borders the neighbors' home, so when he boots it around, I worry about the noise.


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## RockyMountainBaroque (Jun 7, 2017)

Agreed with what is mentioned, the wire can cause serious damage to a horses mouth and should be avoided... I have tried all sorts of nets and the majority of my horses never do any significant damage to them, maybe a small hole here or there... I have a mule on the other hand who is the embodiment of a slow feeder nets worst nightmare... He'll literally sit there just chewing on them like a cow chews cud... He doesn't get slow fed anymore.


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## Change (Jul 19, 2014)

I gave up on slow feed bags or nets - it takes my gelding all of a day to tear them apart. On the bags, he'll actually rip the bottom off. I think he sees them as a challenge.

I might look into those round slow feeders, but I think I'd need to figure out a way to anchor it in place.


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## CaliforniaDreaming (May 8, 2011)

Change said:


> I gave up on slow feed bags or nets - it takes my gelding all of a day to tear them apart. On the bags, he'll actually rip the bottom off. I think he sees them as a challenge.
> 
> I might look into those round slow feeders, but I think I'd need to figure out a way to anchor it in place.


The Porta-Grazers? In the winter, I tie mine to the pipe fence with some baling twine to keep it from ending up in the mud. There’s a drain hole, so I don’t worry so much about it not draining, but if that gets clogged with mud (which also sucks the feeder down) it’s nigh impossible to move. In the summer/fall when the weather is good, I just leave it free. The fourfoot moves it all over the place and even knocks it over. He’ll tip it right back up.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Wondering what kind of hay you are using. I've tried a few slow feed methods with little success. Then I switched from straight alfalfa to straight bermudagrass hay and Hondo slowed way way down on eating. I leave it out as free choice now and he will lose his summer fat from the abundant grass available then. I now only have to provide a way to prevent him from rooting the hay out on the ground looking for something he might like better further down.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Had a look at those Porta Grazers... sheesh, 300$ for a rubber garbage can with holes in the top? Seems like a handy person (not me) could do something like that far cheaper.


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## CaliforniaDreaming (May 8, 2011)

Acadianartist said:


> Had a look at those Porta Grazers... sheesh, 300$ for a rubber garbage can with holes in the top? Seems like a handy person (not me) could do something like that far cheaper.


Heh. I think it’s a little more sophisticated than that.  They’re commercial grade polyurethane or whatever. Those things are tough. And they really do pay for themselves, I have zero hay wastage which can be pretty important when you’re paying $23/bale


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

Has anyone tried one of these?

https://www.jefferspet.com/products/slow-feed-hay-bag-color-black

I zip tied the hay nets last night. Came out this morning to another 6 inch hole. My hay nets are probably toast. I switched horses around so i can find out if maybe they will still work for someone else. 

Tonight Paris is in the electric fence paddock. I have a feeling she will let herself out though.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> Wondering what kind of hay you are using. I've tried a few slow feed methods with little success. Then I switched from straight alfalfa to straight bermudagrass hay and Hondo slowed way way down on eating. I leave it out as free choice now and he will lose his summer fat from the abundant grass available then. I now only have to provide a way to prevent him from rooting the hay out on the ground looking for something he might like better further down.


They actually make slow feeder hay nets, based on type of hay you are feeding. I had the info somewhere, but lost it
Like I posted before, I do not ever use a slow feeder hay net exclusively.
I also have some huge tractor tires that are turned inside out, for feeders
Thus, even when Smilie and Charlie are dry lotted, I only use the slow feeder nets for over night, or if I am going to be gone all day.

Even then, when I fill those nets, I always provide some hay in those feeders
I think horses that ONLY get those slow feeder nets stuffed twice a day or so,with that net being on empty part of the time, are then likely to destroy a net,because they are desperate to eat.
Yes, feeding a hay free choice, less dense in protein and NSC, having more fiber,is often all that is required, to manage weigh on many horses

Horses will also learn to self regulate,once they are not worried about eating as much, asp, or it will be gone.
In the winter, like now, I know all that dead grass, standing about two feet,and which is brown, is very safe for my horses, even Smilie to eat free choice. I like it when there is some snow, so they have to work for it a bit,plus they are getting moisture along with it, which often is a problem here in winter, even when the horses have open water, ie, not drinking enough.
I supplement hay and bet pulp , twice a day, just in a feeder


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> Horses will also learn to self regulate,once they are not worried about eating as much, asp


This is what I learned when I started free choice without a net. They stop eating and stand around for a half hour or so then go back and eat some more.

My near bucket list includes making a smaller version of the John Deere horse feeder TSC sells.

A lot of the hay wastage happens when the horse turns it's head as hay falls from both corners of it's mouth. And a lot occurs when some horses (Hondo!) tend to root hay out of the way looking for the tastiest morsel. And if the horses are fed together, there is that dominance issue.

I'm thinking the design of the feeder would address all of those issues. The feeder is too large to be able to root hay out. The horse can't turn his head unless he backs up away from the food. And he can't display dominance without backing out and going around to a different spot.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

Smilie said:


> Horses will also learn to self regulate,once they are not worried about eating as much, asp, or it will be gone.


I beg to differ.....
My one horse will _*not *_self-regulate, period..
I've tried round rolls and my horses are on pasture much of the year.
With the exception of my "piggy" all my other horses will eat their fill, then go hang out someplace and come back for a snack, leave again...
My "piggy" never stops eating..._never._
He never walks away...
If I did not force him to stop eating he would eat himself sick...

So, *no*..._.not all horses will "learn" to self-regulate._
I happen to own, probably the exception to that thought...:x
My easy-keeper, ... it figures. :icon_rolleyes:
:runninghorse2:.....


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Well, I certainly accept that there is always the exception, to that rule of self regulation
When one has a horse like that, then that horse has to be kept separate from the rest Sometimes just providing some lower quality hay (nutrition wise , not state), as the 'free choice' hay in between feedings works.
The problem being, when you have an IR horse like I do, enough studies have shown that restricting feed actually increases their level of iR, so it becomes a fine balancing act.
I used to be very anal about not just the NSC level of any hay I fed her, but also amount. I was almost married tot he place, during the time she was dry lotted, afraid to give her too much hay, thus would feed small amounts 4 and even 5 times a day, going out in the dark around 11 Pm for a final feeding
I then started to change my tactic feeding some hay in a free choice feeder,twice a day plus filling slow feeder hay nets, designed to hold an entire square bale, with either loose hay or segments of baled hay.
She actually lost some weight, and, I believe since her GI was most likely more level, became less IR, to the point she has not had an incident in over ayear
So, I guess we all have to learn what works best for the hroses we have., and there is no one solution
Carmen, who is just an easy keeper, and has so far never gone over the edge, but came pretty close, when I used to turn her out all night with a muzzle, which she got very good at removing,is fine, turned out in limited grazing for a few hours morning and evening, and then dry lotted the rest of the time, with only a slice of hay, and a slow feeder net over night
I feed medium mature timothy hay, supplemented with soaked beet pulp and any vitamins, omega 3, mag, as needed.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I have always had my dogs on free choice. I normally start them early though. Just transitioned my new 6 MO pup to free choice and he's doing fine.

But if a dog has been allowed to get pretty hungry prior to meals and then maybe not get enough for years, it can be pretty hard to get them slowed down from bing eating.

I've done it with very very many small feedings per day and gradually increased the size and time period.

So I don't know if horses can develop a habit of binge eating but seems they could. I just don't like for their stomach to be empty for any long period of time since I learned how it works.

Hondo would explode on free choice alfalfa I think but does fine on bermudagrass.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Yes, horses certainly do binge eat, due to management, plus become food aggressive
If horses are only fed twice a day or so, having long periods on empty, they will try to eat and protect as much of that food as possible, knowing if they do not, soon it will be gone.
Of course, not all free choice works, as horses given unlimited lush pasture, don't know when to quit eating. Ditto on unlimited free choice hay like orchard grass or alfalfa.
Few, if any horses that get into a grain bin, are going to self regulate and thus not founder
Thus, that self regulation has to be taken into context of what that free choice forage is, and the metabolic state of the horse himself. Many easy keepers lack normal appetite control-so there is that also.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Here is some good info, far as easy keepers, and the balancing act, far as feeding enough safe hay to support normal metabolism :

' On the forage side, the goal of reducing a horse’s hay quality is to provide him with satisfying “chew time” without causing him to gain weight. “Horse owners generally look for high-quality hay, but in this situation we want lower-quality hay—and we don’t mean something full of weeds, dust, and mold,” says Brian Nielsen, PhD, professor of exercise physiology and nutrition at Michigan State University. To determine your hay’s quality, have it tested at a nearby lab (see ForageTesting.org for labs).

So why can’t you just reduce the total amount of hay fed? “It is important to not starve a fat horse,” explains Ralston. “Limiting forage intake can lead to ulcers and can also affect the horse metabolically. If you don’t feed enough to meet his minimal needs, this slows everything down; weight loss will actually be less than if the metabolism rate is more normal.” 


5 Tips for Feeding Easy Keepers | TheHorse.com ;


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> Few, if any horses that get into a grain bin, are going to self regulate and thus not founder


It's been ages since I have allowed myself to purchase the large version of Oreos. I buy the small. I eat the entire of what ever I buy. So it's just not horses. Glad I'm 50 miles from the grocery store!

Another thing we're all aware of that hasn't been mentioned in this thread is exercise. Horses and people alike will drift into plus sizes with even a small carb intake if most time is spent on the couch or standing by the hay feeder.

That is a huge huge factor, as I know you know.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Smilie said:


> Here is some good info, far as easy keepers, and the balancing act, far as feeding enough safe hay to support normal metabolism :
> 
> ' On the forage side, the goal of reducing a horse’s hay quality is to provide him with satisfying “chew time” without causing him to gain weight. “Horse owners generally look for high-quality hay, but in this situation we want lower-quality hay—and we don’t mean something full of weeds, dust, and mold,” says Brian Nielsen, PhD, professor of exercise physiology and nutrition at Michigan State University. To determine your hay’s quality, have it tested at a nearby lab (see ForageTesting.org for labs).
> 
> ...



In theory, this sounds good, but I have no idea where I would find such "low quality" hay. Our area tends to produce fairly rich hay (very good agricultural land, and plenty of rain), and it tends to be the same no matter who you buy it from. There are two kinds of hay here: cow hay and horse hay. If I asked for low-quality hay, they'd just sell me cow hay. 

I wish I could give mine free choice, but they get fat very quickly. Harley is technically a pony at 14.2 and Kodak is only an inch taller. They are confined to a winter paddock so get less exercise, which doesn't help. I can tell you that Harley will not self-regulate, he'll just eat all the time. He's a bit of a pig that way. He does ok on pasture, but that's because he never stops moving, and has to work hard for the calories he gets.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Out of curiosity @Smilie, what would a "low-quality" hay analysis look like? I mean other than the NSC. I suppose that theoretically I could buy a bale from about 10 different suppliers and have it tested to see if I can find the least "fattening" hay... but I'd need to know what to look for. Because I would honestly feel much better if I could let them have free choice hay.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I'm not smilie but some soak to remove sugars. I don't and in the winter don't see how you could. But that is supposed to really remove the fattening stuff.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Yes, you can soak hay to remove excess NSC, but you then must make sure not to soak too long, or you will remove other vital nutrients. I did soak hay one summer, as I could not find really 'safe' hay, but it was a PITA. 
That water container had to be emptied after every soak, and soaking over night was too much-something like the three bear scenario, far as finding what was 'just right'

To try and answer your question, Acadian.
First, we also live where pastures are enriched for cattle, and hay often heavily fertilized. Alberta beef, and all that!
So,hay to look for is later more mature cutting of a grass hay mix or timothy
Just like mature pasture, it is higher in fiber, versus easier to digest nutritionally dense hay
Thus, a hay with both protein and NSC around 10 % is good Medium mature timothy or grass hay here,is cut in late July, early Aug, versus around first of July.
https://www.sweetwaternutrition.com/best-hay-feed-horse/

GRASS HAY

So now let’s turn our attention to some of the benefits of grass hay, and how it differs from alfalfa hay. Grass hay has:

Lower Protein Levels
Lower Energy Content
Higher Fiber
Lower Calcium Levels
Grass hay typically is quite a bit lower in protein than alfalfa hay; the energy content of grass hay is also generally lower than alfalfa hay. For many people who have horses, especially mature horses, non-working horses, or horses that are not used for breeding, grass hay is often preferred over alfalfa hay because of these lower protein and energy levels. Grass hay is also quite often a good choice for senior horses, as it’s easier on the kidneys due to its lower protein content and is also easier to chew and digest.

Grass hay is also a good hay choice for “easy keepers”, meaning horses that easily gain weight or struggle to keep their weight down, especially ponies or miniature horses. Because of the high fiber content, grass hay is a convenient solution for these easy keepers since it can satisfy the horse’s appetite, without adding extra calories and protein.

Not sure about down east, and how many cuttings you get, but I only use first cuttings for horses, as that hay tends to be higher in fiber then later cuttings

In winter, I don't mind around 10% alfalfa, as Smilie is out, and thus her main forage is brown grass, with only some hay fed twice a day.In summer, when she is drylotted,the hay I feed has zero alfalfa or clover. I don't mind hay that was rained on once, as long as it is then well dried. Removes a lot of the excess NSC.
The finer the hay, less stemy, the more likely it will be n the higher end of calories and protein, and very easy to consume in large amounts-plus ,it tastes great!
Does not mean I feed dusty brown hay that is very stemmy with few leaves! Green grass hay is okay, medium mature, not dusty.
I admit that i no longer get hay analyzed, as I buy from various sources, esp square bales, which I often buy at our local auction. 
I let the local owners of race horses owners buy up that second cut alfalfa and orchard grass!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

And yes, Hondo, exercise is very key, and why, even when I have no time to ride Smilie, or I was not sure whether she should be carrying weight, I either lunged or ponied her, in the months she was/ is drylotted


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## whisperbaby22 (Jan 25, 2013)

I do hesitate to get into these conversations because I am very opinionated about slow feeders. I would like people who are interested in slow feeding to realize that what you really need to do is trickle feed, not slow feed.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

How are you going to 'trickle feed, without being there 24/7, including during the night?
Good well made slow feeder hay nets, hung correctly, are a great tool, and I have found using them, in conjunction with some free choice hay, works very well, and I don't need to rush home during the day, at noon, or have someone feed my horses that are drylotted, plus they never spend a lot of the night on empty.
What exactly is your 'trickle' solution?


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

I posted this recently on another thread, but I've also learned that some horses will just not regulate their eating even with slow feeders and low calorie hay.

One possible reason is Leptin resistance. Leptin is a hormone that tells the horse's brain it is full. It is released by fat cells. Some horses that have been overweight develop Leptin resistance, so the normal mechanism to tell the horse it is full does not work and the horse just keeps eating.

Another reason for a horse to not self regulate is Cushing's disease. That is what my "non-self-regulator" has. Even when medicated for Cushing's, they still tend to have enough cortisol to stimulate the appetite. If any of you have known someone taking a corticosteroid such as Prednisone, you will know that this causes a raging hunger and most people gain weight while on steroids.

If you think about it, some horse breeds have probably selected genetically to have more of a continuous appetite. Mustangs and Shetland ponies are from ranges with sparse and low quality forage so they need to have a lot of drive to keep searching for food in order to survive. The most natural thing would be to take our hay and blow it up with a "hay bomb" so it scattered over three acres and the horses had to go find all the pieces. 

There's a real problem with trying to feed "low quality" hay. NSC is not the same as calories. If your issue is weight, then there is very little difference in calories between types of grass hay. Even hay that has higher protein or lower protein, or high NSC or low NSC usually has a very similar calorie content. If you feed straw, you end up with a high lignin content which horses can't digest, and also often a high NSC. Too many calories make the horse fat, no matter what they are comprised of. If the horse won't self regulate, you have to feed the correct amount of calories or the horse will be fat.

Studies show that soaking hay for an hour or less will reduce the NSC to safe levels. Soaking for this amount of time will not reduce the calorie content appreciably. I think I did the math once and it was something like 40 calories per lb. If you soak longer than that, you reduce the fiber, vitamins and minerals by quite a bit. Basically, you reduce the hay after a few hours into something that doesn't provide nutritional benefit to the horse, and it also loses the fiber content necessary for healthy digestion. A well-meaning friend was soaking hay overnight and the horse was eating something like 40 lbs of hay and quickly becoming emaciated.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Try hanging the haynet so that the horse cannot push it against anything, that way when he tries to eat it is going to take a lot longer and would be more difficult for him to eat the net.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

whisperbaby22 said:


> I do hesitate to get into these conversations because I am very opinionated about slow feeders. I would like people who are interested in slow feeding to realize that what you really need to do is trickle feed, not slow feed.


Like @Smilie, I'd like to know what this means. 

I go out to the barn at least 5 times a day between 7 am and 10 pm. Two feedings are hay cubes (used as a vehicle to deliver supplements). The other three times, I fill up their nets. Three flakes in a haynets will keep them busy for about 3-4 hours. This way, they don't go very long without something to eat. Except at night. That remains a challenge, but I'm not about to start getting up at 2 am for an extra feeding. At least with the slow-feeder net they are forced to eat a little bit at a time. Otherwise, they wolf down their hay in a matter of minutes.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

And I appreciate your response @Smilie. So you are talking about a late cut hay, not a second cut hay. I do try to get as much timothy as possible and very little alfalfa. But there is very little known about horse nutrition around here, so there isn't a lot of selection. I will keep searching though... especially given that this year's hay was not as nice as last year's so I'm potentially looking for a new supplier.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Weather and climate can effect maturity of the cut so realize even a first cut hay can be mature. It is maturity you want. The more mature, the more stem and less leaf. When inspecting look for seed heads. The higher the number of seed heads and more mature they are the more mature the hay. This table is from Dairy One and shows how little difference in digestable energy range (calories) between hays. Protein is the biggest difference. 
ETA Ii won't copy so I'll have try another way.


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## whisperbaby22 (Jan 25, 2013)

Smilie, I have no problem with slow feeders that actually work. I have strong opinions on whether they work or no. I wrote an article on automatic (trickle) feeders on this forum and would be happy to share my findings with anyone who is interested.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I'm interested.


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## whisperbaby22 (Jan 25, 2013)

Hondo there is a lot of information on the internet. My article was meant for someone who was interested in the various types. Please feel free to ask me about what I have learned. I have tried many different slow feeders that did now work. I have been using the trickle feeders for - I don't know - 6 years?


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

whisperbaby22 said:


> Hondo there is a lot of information on the internet. My article was meant for someone who was interested in the various types. Please feel free to ask me about what I have learned. I have tried many different slow feeders that did now work. I have been using the trickle feeders for - I don't know - 6 years?


Can you post a link or something? What do you mean by a trickle feeder? Some kind of automated feeder that releases hay periodically?


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

QtrBel said:


> Weather and climate can effect maturity of the cut so realize even a first cut hay can be mature. It is maturity you want. The more mature, the more stem and less leaf. When inspecting look for seed heads. The higher the number of seed heads and more mature they are the more mature the hay. This table is from Dairy One and shows how little difference in digestable energy range (calories) between hays. Protein is the biggest difference.
> ETA Ii won't copy so I'll have try another way.


Yeah, I get that, but farmers around here want to get two cuts so I don't know how I would find someone willing to cut his hay later in the summer. That might mean no second cut for him (we have a short growing season). I do appreciate the information - don't get me wrong. I just get so frustrated with the fact that people around here know so little about horse nutrition. All the hay looks the same and is cut at the same time. But I'm going to keep searching. Right now, I'd just be happy to find hay that Harley can digest. He has loose stool again.  Sorry, this is pretty off-topic from the OP. Apologies.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Some horses have developed the 'thrifty gene, which means they can survive on rations other horses would not
NSC are sugar and starches, which equals calories. There certainly is a huge difference in the concentration of calories, in different maturity of grass hay!
Imagine eating a huge meal,in order to absorb ex number of calories, versus some concentrated form.
Of course, movement, needed to find that food, versus standing and eating off of a hay bale are vastly different, far as burning any calories. Unfortunately, none of us have a situation where our horses can travel 10 miles or more a day, in order to find that forage
Slow feeder nets are meant to at least in part, simulate a more natural eating process.
There is a balancing act, far as trying to make sure horses, who secrete acid constantly, not just at meals like us, never have an empty gut for long, and ensuring they do not become over weight.
I have never had to treat a horse for ulcers. 
i also don't count on horses just self regulating, and why I use slow feeder nets and grazing muzzles
The entire idea of having a more level GI (glycemic index, versus spikes, is to have a horse develop a more 'normal metabolism. It has actually been found, that 'starving over weight horses, actually makes them more IR, increase stress, thus raises cortisol levels, and you wind up spinning your wheels!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Limiting hay for any horse (but particularly an IR horse) will be counterproductive when it comes to trying to get your horse lose weight. The more weight a horse gains, the more we are told to “decrease their food”. With a laminitic horse, we’re told to lock them up and stop feeding them, to feed them very little hay and of poor quality. This will not work.
The digestive system in a horse was created to always have something moving through it. They are supposed to eat almost continually, in small quantities, and move. We know that an IR horse already has elevated insulin levels and that with ANY horse, insulin increases with the ingestion of sugars. Stress can also increase insulin and this is important plays right along with “not eating” for long periods of the day. An empty stomach is stressful for the horse because it initiates the “survival instinct”. When a horse is “starved”, the higher stress becomes, the more insulin is secreted into the blood stream, causing the levels to rise, essentially leading to an increase in the likelihood of a laminitic episode. (Keeping sugar out of an IR horse’s diet, and increasing movement and exercise is also essential, as is treating the underlying metabolic dysfunction. http://www.forloveofthehorse.com/ems.php )
It has been proven that a free-choice hay diet will eventually eliminate the “starvation stress” and a horse will begin to eat less at each “feeding”. Once the horse learns that they are not going to be without food, they will realize that whenever they feel the need to eat, the food will be available to them and they will begin to consume less over time. With this, the horse will start to self-regulate the amount of hay they eat and this will reduce stress AND keep food flowing in the digestive system, which is much healthier overall.
They may “wolf” hay down for a while, but once you begin to provide it free-choice, they will begin to adjust and eat less. The adjustment may take two weeks, or may take two months. This all depends on how damaged their metabolism is, and how they adjust (mentally and emotionally) to the changes. You may see some weight gain in the beginning, because their instinct has been ignored, in a sense, and they have been “retrained” to eat as much as possible at one time because they do not know when they will get to eat again. Over time, they will adjust and will begin to eat less.
You may even opt to use a hay net or a hay bag with 2” holes (Holes any smaller than 2” may cause frustration and they may not be able to get enough, causing some aggression and more stress.). This will restrict the wolfing of mouthfuls of hay, and still give them the effect of “grazing” by pulling small amounts out at a time. If a net or hay bag is not an option, spreading many flakes around a large area will encourage them to walk from pile to pile to also create a “grazing” effect. This way, they’ll also spend much of their time moving.
This is THE BEST way to feed hay and will cause you and your horse a lot less stress in the end.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Granted, IR horses can't have unlimited hay, without some means of slowing down hay intake,as they don't have that normal regulating mechanism.
Normal' horses often do very well,on free choice low NSC hay, and will self regulate. IR horses need slow feeder nets, esp until their metabolism becomes more 'normal
Restricting IR horses severely to amount of forage, is counter productive and will make them more IR. I found that to be true the hard way!

https://drkhorsesense.wordpress.com/2013/10/04/free-choice-feeding/

NSC are hot calories in a concentrated form, while fats provide cool calories.It is the hot calories in NSC that are the problem,far a an IR horse, but both types of calories are energy, and excess energy not burned, is stored as fat, ie weight gain


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

it certainly does matter, far as the maturity of a grass hay that you feed an easy keeper:

;The more mature a grass is the greater the proportion of structural carbohydrates relative to nonstructural carbohydrates (NSC). Structural carbohydrates have a more complex chemical structure, are harder to digest, and yield fewer calories. This can be good news if you have easy keepers, but not such good news if you struggle to keep weight on your horse.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Smilie said:


> Restricting IR horses severely to amount of forage, is counter productive and will make them more IR. I found that to be true the hard way!
> 
> https://drkhorsesense.wordpress.com/2013/10/04/free-choice-feeding/


Your emphasis slightly contraindicates the emphasis in the link from Dr. Kellon, which seems to be making sure people understand that free choice is not necessarily going to work.



> More specifically, it has been suggested that horses with insulin resistance must have unlimited access to hay around the clock and claimed that even a few minutes without hay is dangerous to them. The rationale is that being deprived of access to food is unnatural and constitutes a stress, causing cortisol release. The cortisol release in turn will worsen or perpetuate insulin resistance. A further claim is that this stress and cortisol release will lead to acute, chronic or recurrent laminitis.
> 
> This is dangerous advice that has no basis in fact and attempts to simplify what is not a simple situation.


In studies, horses on pasture with normal appetites tended to eat around 17 hours daily. During those times they would spend several hours loafing, and their stomachs would empty. It's not true that horses must have food in their stomach at all times.



> While obesity per se does not causing insulin resistance, it does worsen it. Overweight IR horses improve with weight loss. *Severe calorie restriction below 1.5% of bodyweight on the average can backfire because this metabolic stress actually triggers or worsens IR, but unlimited access won’t work either.*


Obesity worsens IR, and also restricting calories below 1.5% body weight can worsen IR. Both are bad. However, it is not good for ANY horse to have less than 1.5% of their body weight in either calories or lbs of roughage. That is a starvation diet.
But horses will not be obese when fed between 1.5 and 2% of their body weight in hay/roughage daily. The issue comes when horses are given more than 2% daily, and do not self regulate. This causes obesity which worsens insulin resistance just as surely as severe calorie restriction does. 

My mare can eat 8 pounds of hay out of a one inch opening slow feeder in two hours. The smaller the holes get, the faster she speeds up her "pulling hay" rate with her mouth. 

For her, weighing 750 lbs, she should get up to 15 lbs of roughage daily to reach 2%. If I were to just feed her 15 lbs in a slow feeder in one feeding, she could (and would) eat all her calories for the day in about 4 hrs. What she does instead is go out on pasture with no hay during the day. 

Horses eat about 1 to 1.5 lbs of grass per hour when grazing. Grass has only about 300 calories/lb, so horses can eat more of it due to the water content and get less calories. Since my mare is out about ten hours/day grazing, she gets about 10-15 lbs of grass consumed. Since she is a determined eater, I am guessing more like 15. 

Her roughage needs are met by pasture, so she just needs to get enough calories to maintain weight. After eating about 4500 calories from grass, she only needs about 7000 more calories to be above 1.5%. That's only about 8-9 lbs of our 800 calories/lb orchard grass hay. Most of the year I give her around 8-10 lbs daily in addition to her grazing. 
It's interesting when you do the math and see how many pounds/calories you're feeding per the horse's normal body weight, and how the horse's weight correlates.

Even if you didn't follow all those details, the point is that in order to keep my mare at around the 2% of body weight in both roughage and calories for good health, she can only have around 8-10 lbs of hay daily. But even in a 1 inch slow feeder net, if I gave her enough hay to where she never ran out, she would eat far in excess of 2% of her body weight. 
Studies in ponies have shown they will often eat 4% or more of their body weight when fed free choice. For my mare, that would be thirty pounds of hay, which she could easily consume. Since she is a 5+ BCS with 8 lbs of hay daily, imagine how obese she would be if I gave her 30 lbs daily.

She is not on a starvation diet, consuming more than 2% in her body weight in hay daily. Yet she goes many hours during the night with no hay, in order to not be obese. There does not seem to be any danger to this, she's never had even the most minor gas colic or ulcers and has been managed this way for many years. It would be dangerous, however, to feed her free choice hay. Not only would excess weight put more strain on her arthritic back, it could cause laminitis which could be fatal since she has Cushing's. 

For some reason people do not think obesity is a health risk, but believe limiting hay is a health risk. It is only a health risk if you do not provide enough roughage and calories for the horse's health.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

how would one make a trickle feeder? i am interested in that. wont work for my old horse but maybe for my arab. might prevent her from eating FAST and choking on bermuda.


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## MN Ryder (Sep 3, 2015)

I've learned that our equines will try to eat as much hay as I am willing to feed, even using hay nets. So to prevent over-eating this is what works for me: I feed 4 horses & a mule by hanging 3-4 hay chix nets from the fence line so they stand on end (to make it a little more difficult to paw the nets & keep the hay nets cleaner). They are fed twice a day, more in the evening, less in the morning; each net is only partially filled and there is only enough fed to last as long as I think is necessary, more for colder temps, less when it's warmer. My 3 year old gets additonal nutrition through more complete feed than given the others 1-2 times/day. The nets are going on 3 years now, only a couple repairs needed. I have 9 nets so there is time between feedings for some nets soaked by rain or snow to be drying. They seem to like this method and there is little to no waste.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

This is quite a topic!!

In unrelated reading this morning I stumbled upon this article. 

al Holistic Horse & Hoof Care: Thermoregulation in horses in a cold time of year. Revised

It's long but toward the end the author states that in the winter horses go into an elevated insulin state that prevents the shedding of fat that helps them stay warm and states that slow feeders can put horses in an unnatural elevated insulin state that can actually increase fat more than a horse that has adjusted to demand feeding.

This tends to support much of what @ Smilie; has said.

There is some counter opinion commenting after the article which the author addresses.

Counter opinions on horses!? How unusual

I've also been reading this morning on brain changes on solitary confinement for humans and mice. My horse is outside without a herd mate since yesterday afternoon and I'm thinking he's effectively in solitary confinement. But that's another subject for another day.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Yes, we always debate. :smile:

For some reason, holistic horse care sites never mention that hay is completely unnatural. Horses do not in a "natural" or feral state forage over fields of chopped up and dried hay that comes from one or two types of grass. They also don't graze on improved pastureland. 
So almost none of us can actually keep horses naturally. We have to do the best we can. It is my belief is that it is unhealthy to keep horses obese, which is a state they rarely get into when out in a "natural" state. Ever see any feral mustangs that are at a body condition score of eight? Then why do we call keeping horses obese "natural"? We think free feeding them food they would never get in the wild is more natural than restricting their intake for some reason. Neither state is natural, because we're keeping them in a "zoo" rather than in a natural environment. So which is healthier?


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

@gottatrot Fully agree that eating 100% hay or grass is not natural. I actually know and have some experience in this having carefully observed Hondo's and other's eating habits.

At certain times of the year they will strip the stems and leaves off the sides of Arrow Weeds with nice grass along side. Same for Cottonwood Tree leaves that have fallen. And they love the seeds that fall from the Catsclaw bushes in the fall. They eat the leaves of Mesquite trees cautiously avoiding the thorns. I could go on and on, there are so many plant varieties in the desert. And all this in close proximity to nice grass one step or less away. The natural state is to consume a huge variety of browse. They are part deer or goat in what they consume. And there is no way most horses can be provided that type of forage. My horse is lucky.

I'll comment further that I didn't read the author as saying a fat horse is a natural horse but only that they in the wild they do tend to build up (some) fat prior to the oncoming winter.

Disclaimer: I'm a learner not a knower!


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## whisperbaby22 (Jan 25, 2013)

Hey I'm glad I did comment here - it has been years since I have checked out these feeders, and looks like there is a new company that can make me a 5 shelf. Anybody want to buy a used 6 shelf!?!

Anyway, winds will keep me out of the saddle, I will put my thoughts in the members articles soon.


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## Cynical25 (Mar 7, 2013)

Foxhunter said:


> Try hanging the haynet so that the horse cannot push it against anything, that way when he tries to eat it is going to take a lot longer and would be more difficult for him to eat the net.


This. I feed twice daily and toss a tiny flake of loose hay to take the edge off, then hang nets from the rafters of the loafing shed for nibbling throughout the day. If I don't give the loose hay, my easy-keeper WILL eat through the nets. I stock up whenever the Shires brand goes on sale at Dover, as they seem to last my gelding longer than other brands.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Trottin, lets get back to IR horses first, far as pasture grass , versus hay low in nSC
Grass can be very high in NSC, and horses will selectively grass grass that is young, thus has more NSC in ratio to structural carbohydrates. You can't control as to what type of forage they graze out on pasture.
Put them out in a pasture, with some tall mature grass and some over grazed short lush, NSC rich grass, and they are not going to go and eat that mature grass, because it is better for them!
I can thus, allow Smilie to have free choice safe hay , in a slow feeder net ( mature hay is not easily pulled out fast ), but have her founder, on just a half hour of pasture, and why she gets no turnout when grass is still producing sugars, even with a muzzle
Sure, if you are feeding some fine grass hay, that is fairly leaffy, a horse can consume a lot of it, even with a slow feeder hay net.
No, horses don't need to eat constantly, and horses out in pasture, do have periods where they don't graze. Horses dry lotted, will learn that self regulation ,
same as out in pasture(normal hroses ), while those with metabolic issues, do need the amount of calories they consume, controlled by some method, and feeding more mature hay, which has a higher ratio of structural carbohydrates, versus non structural, combined with a slow feeder hay net is effective management for these horses.
I have a horse that is very IR, and have learned how to manage her best, What you do with your horse, would have her founder very quickly.
There is no one size fits all!

You are also comparing a horse that has pasture, and NOT a horse that must have hay only diet, ie, must be dry lotted. So of course, your mare does not need free choice hay when she comes in, having had that pasture time. Carmen, who is also out on pasture, never has fee choice hay when she is in the corral, or she too would be over weight


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

To clarify, the use of slow feeder hay nets is designed for horses who do not have pasture turn out, as an alternative to be fed the same amount of hay they would be fed, in two meals or so, spread out over way more hours.It does not mean you need to stuff those nets so that they are never empty.
When I fill them, for over night, they are empty in the morning, but I know it took my horses way longer to eat their hay ration in those nets, then if I had just dumped it into their feeder.
I also feed a flake of hay in free choice feeders at those times, to take the 'edge' off, so the nets are not 'attacked'
Horses given pasture time, obviously have times of free choice eating, thus do not require free choice hay the entire time they are confined.
You must look at the entire management!
It is not the having a horse never with an empty gut, but rather prolonged periods on empty, where those hroses do not have pasture, and are fed only two or three meals a day, with many hours between feeding, and with those meals consumed in short order.That is where the use of slow feeder nets come in.
Horses, like Carmen, that has pasture time, morning and night, only get a flake of hay, free choice, when in the corral, and spend a lot of time not eating, as they have had several hours of pasture time, which Carmen insists on being 'free choice, getting rid of any grazing muzzle invented!


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

I just wanted to update and say i found some cotton hay nets. Since she bites through nylon nets, i think the cotton might last longer. Worth a try at least. 

She gets coastal hay only. with a ration balancer. I like the slow feeders because she does not self regulate. If the cotton hay nets hold up, i will update.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Smilie said:


> To clarify, the use of slow feeder hay nets is designed for horses who do not have pasture turn out, as an alternative to be fed the same amount of hay they would be fed, in two meals or so, spread out over way more hours.It does not mean you need to stuff those nets so that they are never empty....
> 
> Horses given pasture time, obviously have times of free choice eating, thus do not require free choice hay the entire time they are confined.
> You must look at the entire management!
> ...


Exactly, very well said.

Agree, many IR horses can't have any pasture, or very little, which makes things even more difficult. It is highly individualized. Even though my Cushing's mare struggles with weight, she has not yet crossed over to being IR, and hopefully with weight management she won't become IR.


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