# My Mustang DNA results - thoughts?



## Boo Walker (Jul 25, 2012)

I got the DNA results back on my BLM Mustang (I used the Texas A&M lab), and the results are not what I would have guessed. The 3 prominent breeds they cited are small in stature and includes Welsh Pony. Hercules is 17.2hh! 

I thought about having another test done somewhere else but Kentucky and UC Davis say their DNA tests cannot reveal the breed. So I was curious, how vague or accurate is a DNA test for breed identification?

Here are the results:









Here are representatives of the top 3:









Here's Hercules:









Here is how he looks next to an average 15hh Quarter Horse:


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

How much did it cost? I ask because I know 100% what breed mix my Aires is and if it isn't too expensive, I'd do it to provide a baseline for questions like this.

As it is, I have a hard time believing that breed mix for a mustang. Especially the akhal teke.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## secuono (Jul 6, 2011)

These tests are nuts. We did one for our dog, 16 pound little thing. Mother was a pure chihuahua, we met her, still nursing the litter. 

We then met the dad, a min pin.

The test showed chowchow on mother's side.
Then for the dad, giant schnauzer, black lab and a couple others I don't recall. All big ol dogs! 

My guess was chi x schipperke. Which, most people looking at her and a picture of schipperke, or other dogs, would agree to. 

My point would be that these tests can be wildly inaccurate. I wonder what factors they are using to call it one breed or another. Maybe they use the same ones for some breeds and things get mixed up. Who knows.


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

Well, his color is similar to the three pictures. LOL

Frame it and hang on the wall. Bwahahahaha


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

they state its more breed type than preed. Alhal Teke is more of eastern horses of Non arabian blood. the welsh could be from another closely related breed (so any smaller european horse). i want to get my arabian tested to see what it says. though UC DAvis its $75 i think. the horse one is a bit more accurate than the dog one. the dog one is a mess as most purebreds are even closely related to other breeds.


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> How much did it cost? I ask because I know 100% what breed mix my Aires is and if it isn't too expensive, I'd do it to provide a baseline for questions like this.
> 
> As it is, I have a hard time believing that breed mix for a mustang. Especially the akhal teke.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I've been wanting to do the same thing with my horse


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## rocky pony (Oct 5, 2007)

I can't say much about the horse DNA test as I've never done one (and honestly didn't know it existed!) but I can definitely vouch for the dog DNA test. I think that the biggest reason so many people get crazy results from it is because the sample was contaminated or the instructions weren't followed extremely carefully. You have to make sure that the dog hasn't had anything whatsoever in its mouth for several hours before you take your sample, or it can get contaminated and your results will be wonky. That's pretty tough to do since dogs like to lick everything and you'd basically have to watch the dog the whole time to be sure.
I was extremely excessively careful about that with my dog and followed the directions to a T and got results that I have no doubt are accurate based on his appearance and personality. It really answered a lot of questions for me about him! I also tested my mom's dog and was just as careful and her results are definitely clearly correct as well.

What is used for the horse DNA test sample? I imagine there's no way that it would work with a cheek swab like the dog one is done, lol
But if it's something like a blood test but the same sort of technology is used as the dog one, I would bet it would be pretty good.


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

For the parentage tests on APHA horses they have you pull 50 or 60 mane hairs with the root bulbs and stick them onto a pre-stickum-ed place on a card. Fold it up and send it in.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

i have the instruction for it somewhere. ill post in when i find it.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

FOUND IT!!! i have it in my email. PM me if you want it in email original docs form and i'll forward it.


DNA sampling:

We need 30-50 pulled mane or tail hairs with the root follicle attached. You may use 

either mane, tail or both, whichever is easier. Hairs must be pulled straight out to ensure 

follicles come out of the skin. It may be best to pull 5-10 hairs at a time rather than larger 

amounts. To send, write information about the horse on the form provided, on a blank 

sheet of paper or on the outside of a paper envelop. The information is the type that 

would be on a registration paper. At the bottom of the form or paper, tape the hair 

sample to the paper with clear tape, or just put the hair in the envelope with information 

on the outside. Do not tape over follicles. Extra hair can be trimmed. For single samples 

you can fold the paper and mail like a regular letter. If sending multiple samples, place 

each sample in an individual envelop and put all envelops in a larger envelop or box. 

You only need to fill in the boxes you know the information for.

SEE BELOW FOR ADDRESS


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## Boo Walker (Jul 25, 2012)

I agree, it's a "most closely resembles" genetic marker report- still pretty interesting for $35 lol!


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

My mother had a breed test done on her purebred Peke dog. When she sent it out she stated that he was a mixed breed. The results came back 100% Pekingese. I don't know where she sent it to, I'll have to ask. I think that a lot of these places that test for breeds on horses don't have it quite all together.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Boy that is worth $25 just to see what they would say about my two without-a-doubt-registered Tennessee Walkers.

That said, it's the part about pulling all those hairs and the follicles that gets me, lol

There's something about that, that gives me the heebeegeebees.

I can dress a leg with a punctured artery and blood squirting everywhere; just the thought of pulling those hairs makes me gag:beatup:

I know I know, we all have our idiosynchrosies, this is mine:bowwdown:


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## dkb811 (Oct 15, 2013)

At that price, I'm so tempted to do it. I'm with Walk, not so sure about pulling out all of that hair I've thought about testing the dog I picked off the highway last year too. Vet's best guess is German Shephard/Lab mix.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Oh man I want to see what Sky comes up as, ****


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## rocky pony (Oct 5, 2007)

dkb811 said:


> At that price, I'm so tempted to do it. I'm with Walk, not so sure about pulling out all of that hair I've thought about testing the dog I picked off the highway last year too. Vet's best guess is German Shephard/Lab mix.


Not to distract from the thread but I'd highly recommend it if you are curious about any of your dog's behaviors! When I got my dog, we were pretty sure he was either pit bull and dalmatian or american bulldog and something else, but we were also curious what else must be in there because he is a total bird dog and naturally points and retrieves. None of those breeds would generally have any hunting instincts. So I tested him and his main breeds came out as pit bull, dalmatian, and vizsla, which is an all-purpose hunting breed that is kind of rare but I've actually seen a lot of them around where I live so it makes sense that he'd have that in him. I read up more about vizslas and it described his personality exactly. So he got his appearance from the pit and dalmatian, but his personality from the vizsla. I'm really glad I did the test! But definitely be sure to follow the directions super carefully or else it will end up being a waste of money like some others have experienced.
And mind you, they don't ask you to send in pictures of the dog or anything. All that was sent in was his name, I think maybe his age and sex? And the cheek swabs.

Here's my boy all buckled up and ready to go on an adventure in the car.










This thread is really making me want to test my boy Rocky. We were told he was purebred RMH but I've always had my suspicions about him being a cross. And my mom's horse came from a rescued herd of abandoned Morgans but she doesn't look like a purebred Morgan to me, I'm not even convinced she has any...hmmm....


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## AnalisaParalyzer (Apr 25, 2012)

I'm planning on sending in my Colts hairs for testing as soon as my husband prints out the form for me. I know nothing about him other than what I can visually see. So it will be interesting to see what they come back with for him. 

Getting the bulb of the hairs seems like the hardest part


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

AnalisaParalyzer said:


> Getting the bulb of the hairs seems like the hardest part


If the horse has been warmed up with light exercise, it's MUCH easier to do.


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## elle1959 (Sep 7, 2015)

KigerQueen said:


> they state its more breed type than preed. Alhal Teke is more of eastern horses of Non arabian blood. the welsh could be from another closely related breed (so any smaller european horse). i want to get my arabian tested to see what it says. though UC DAvis its $75 i think. the horse one is a bit more accurate than the dog one. the dog one is a mess as most purebreds are even closely related to other breeds.


Well, that's the thing. There's really no such thing as a "pure" breed of anything, because all of the recognized breeds were created by mixing animals of different types, some known and some unknown. That's why they don't endorse using the tests on "purebred" animals, because results will show breeds that lurk behind the "pure" breed and, thus, not what you expect.


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## elle1959 (Sep 7, 2015)

secuono said:


> These tests are nuts. We did one for our dog, 16 pound little thing. Mother was a pure chihuahua, we met her, still nursing the litter.
> 
> We then met the dad, a min pin.
> 
> ...


A chihuahua and a minpin produced a 16lb offspring? I'd guess there would have to be some larger breeds back in there somewhere.


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## LoveTheSaddlebreds (Jul 9, 2009)

Side note, how tall are you?!??? That horse doesn't look 17.2hh to me!


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

*Rocky pony, *. I also don't want to hijack but, look up the Catahoula Leopard Cur dog breed.

Your dog has the same "flying nun" ears as my Catahoula/Pit Bull mix.

My other Catahoula is either purebred or has Fox Terrier in him.

Both mixes are used in the south for wild boar hunting or cattle herding.

They are tracking dogs not gun dogs.

What I call "Rottweiler intelligent". The younger one that is mixed with Pit Bull is stubborn as the dickens, lollol. He will say "and why not" ten times more than my Rotts ever did.

Anyway, I think it's Abbey Kennels that breeds pure Catahoulas. I think you will be surprised. 

AKC doesn't recognize them because the "physicality of the breed structure" is all over the map. My two are polar opposites in that regard.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Walk, catahoulas are recognized by the AKC. Catahoula Leopard Dog Breed Information - American Kennel Club
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

I might just do this to see what they say about trouble. He's half appy half paint 100% certain. Obviously he'd have quarter horse in there but I wonder what else.


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## rocky pony (Oct 5, 2007)

Oh I'm very familiar with 'houlas, one of my closest friends is a huge fan and has had many of them. Great dogs! Very energetic and wild, lol. My boy definitely isn't one though! His ears are typical pittie rose ears (other than the dalmatian coloring). They don't flop forward like a houla, they always go back or to the side. I don't have many pictures of him looking alert because he's a lazy bum, but they look like this dog's when he's alert.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

agreed on the pure breed part but arabians are one of the oldest and "purest" breeds, going as far as having a different number of vertebrae than other domestic equines. so the test should come back as arabian and MAYBE akhal teke for an arabian.


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## Boo Walker (Jul 25, 2012)

I'm 5'11", here's a picture of him next to my husbands' Belgian draft horse









Pulling the tail hairs was really easy, I just got them 10-15 at a time. His ears didn't even flick back when I pulled them


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## dkb811 (Oct 15, 2013)

rocky pony said:


> Not to distract from the thread but I'd highly recommend it if you are curious about any of your dog's behaviors! When I got my dog, we were pretty sure he was either pit bull and dalmatian or american bulldog and something else, but we were also curious what else must be in there because he is a total bird dog and naturally points and retrieves. None of those breeds would generally have any hunting instincts. So I tested him and his main breeds came out as pit bull, dalmatian, and vizsla, which is an all-purpose hunting breed that is kind of rare but I've actually seen a lot of them around where I live so it makes sense that he'd have that in him. I read up more about vizslas and it described his personality exactly. So he got his appearance from the pit and dalmatian, but his personality from the vizsla. I'm really glad I did the test! But definitely be sure to follow the directions super carefully or else it will end up being a waste of money like some others have experienced.
> And mind you, they don't ask you to send in pictures of the dog or anything. All that was sent in was his name, I think maybe his age and sex? And the cheek swabs.
> 
> Here's my boy all buckled up and ready to go on an adventure in the car.
> ...


Handsome boy, you have there! I can definitely see Pit in him. My sister has had full blood Pits for years now, great dogs they are. I've never heard of a Vizsla, fascinating. How in the world did you get a non-contaminated swab, maybe while he was sleeping? LOL

I think my boy has a lab face and ears, and he never tires of playing fetch. His coloring and hind end build resemble a GS. I haven't had the pleasure to be around GS's, so I don't know much about their personalities.

As for horses, we have three. A registered TB, a grade QH, and a grade Appy. It would be fun to have all three tested!

Heck while I'm at it might as well get myself DNA tested as well! Have a friend that got tested through Ancestry.com


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## dkb811 (Oct 15, 2013)

Boo Walker said:


> I'm 5'11", here's a picture of him next to my husbands' Belgian draft horse
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No matter what your horse has in him, he sure is pretty! I might give the hair pulling a go.


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## out to lunge (Dec 3, 2015)

I did something similar for my dog and it seems that the accuracy of the results depends on the completeness of the breed profiles the company has in their system. The test was very accurate for my dog, but my friend used the same test and got wildly inaccurate results because at the time her dog's main breed was not in the system. I'm guessing it's similar for horses and might throw out something random if it doesn't recognize some of the DNA?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Many mustangs have interbred for many years, having a very diverse genetic background, so to try and identify them ,far as any breed is a crap shoot
Heck,you don't even know, breeding one generation of two very different horses as to what you might get, thus your horse;s size is a mote point! That is how breeding hybrids differs greatly from breeding horses with a more fixed genetic background
I know of full siblings, half draft and half TB that look nothing alike.
One has the refinement of the TB, and the other has neither the size of the draft parent, just the bone and coarseness. You would never know it was half TB
My friend has a good sized horse, out of a pony jumper. A draft stud visited her place, and bred that pony mare. The resulting baby grew to be a 16hh horse.
Heck, you must know families, where the husband is quite tall and the wife is short, with their son being taller than either.
DNA typing of wild horses allows isolated herds to be identified, where little influence from other horses has been added to their original Spanish heritage


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

WhattaTroublemaker said:


> I might just do this to see what they say about trouble. He's half appy half paint 100% certain. Obviously he'd have quarter horse in there but I wonder what else.


I guess, you must know that breeding an Appaloosa to a Paint, results in a grade
Might not matter to you, but since he is a stud, I would think that kind of cross would have been avoided?


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Smilie said:


> I guess, you must know that breeding an Appaloosa to a Paint, results in a grade
> Might not matter to you, but since he is a stud, I would think that kind of cross would have been avoided?


Pretty sure she's getting him gelded soon.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

walkinthewalk said:


> Boy that is worth $25 just to see what they would say about my two without-a-doubt-registered Tennessee Walkers.
> 
> That said, it's the part about pulling all those hairs and the follicles that gets me, lol
> 
> ...


Note really hard to pull hair, Lol. Had to do it all the time, registering foals esp from transported semen


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

anndankev said:


> For the parentage tests on APHA horses they have you pull 50 or 60 mane hairs with the root bulbs and stick them onto a pre-stickum-ed place on a card. Fold it up and send it in.


Yes, that is used in all stock horse registries, and that,a s far as I;m concerned, plus testing for genetic defects, is where DNA testing has both merit and is very accurate
When you pull hairs on basically a grade horse, you can have a wide range of genetic influence, not to mention, most breeds are not 'closed purebreds, with years of no interbreeding, thus share common genetics
Most breeds are man made. Someone started a registry, and those horses int here often evolved from diverse genetics. Many light horses have an Arabian influence., gaited horses, even draft
Just because some organization then gathers these horses together, and calls them Paints, Apps, AQHA, or what have you, doesn't mean that other genetic influences that were used to form that registry, then leave that breed!. heck, i raised Appaloosas, with Mighty Bright breeding, thus there sure was Paint genetics way back there,(Bright Eyes Brother), and even if I hoped they would not be expressed, at times they did, to the point I could not register one filly, as she had a huge white 'paint' patch on her belly


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## rocky pony (Oct 5, 2007)

dkb811 said:


> Handsome boy, you have there! I can definitely see Pit in him. My sister has had full blood Pits for years now, great dogs they are. I've never heard of a Vizsla, fascinating. How in the world did you get a non-contaminated swab, maybe while he was sleeping? LOL
> 
> I think my boy has a lab face and ears, and he never tires of playing fetch. His coloring and hind end build resemble a GS. I haven't had the pleasure to be around GS's, so I don't know much about their personalities.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the compliments on my baby! He is the true love of my life...and my boyfriend knows it, lol
Pits are such great dogs. It stuns me that so many people have a bad opinion of them, they must not have ever met one. I worked as a dog bather for many years and it was always a good day when I got to work on a pit. It takes a helluva lot to make a pit ever think about biting a person. I was bit by just about every type of dog there is, but there wasn't even a single time that any pit ever even threatened to bite me...well except for some nibbly puppies, lol. They were always just really excitable and affectionate, and if they didn't like what you were doing they'd just look really sad and pathetic and look at you like "Why are you being so mean when I am so cute and nice " hahaha

I got his sample yep, after he'd been sleeping all night! He is a very deep sleeper so I felt pretty confident that he would not wake up and lick anything. I came up to wake him and got the swabs taken as quickly as I could, lol. When I got his results back I knew his sample was clean, because his results made a lot of sense! We also tested my mom's dog the same way and it seems like it's probably right to me. It said she was pit with just a little bit of corgi, and I feel like maybe I can see it in her face and tail just a tad, but possibly her sample could have been contaminated because I'd believe she's full blood pit. She just mostly looks and acts like a pit.

German Shephards are lovely dogs, though they can be crazy when not properly trained and exercised, and they need a lot of both. They're very intelligent, super quick to learn and extremely enthusiastic about learning, and they have boundless energy. I have to admit I've met a lot that were very nervous and skeptical of strangers, and willing to bite. But honestly every mixed breed German Shephard (with literally any other breed) I've ever met has been purely lovely. It would be cool to find out the results if you test your dog, what a cutie!

Anyway, I've probably hijacked this thread to talk about dogs more than enough, hahaha, I'll stop.


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

Smilie said:


> I guess, you must know that breeding an Appaloosa to a Paint, results in a grade
> Might not matter to you, but since he is a stud, I would think that kind of cross would have been avoided?


Yes I have to geld him to go to school out in AB. He will have no breeding career. I bought him off a guy who had two app mares thrown in with a paint stallion. That stallion had the nicest temperament of any of the studs we met that day so I opted to buy Trouble.


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## grayshell38 (Mar 9, 2009)

Makes me curious...as someone stated earlier, Arabians have been being bred pure for a very long time. My gelding is registered half arabian, but that is only because of one infusion of outside blood 5 generations ago. I'd love to see if I could find out what that one horse was. All AHA has for info is that the horse's name was Sioux.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Appaloosas have allowable outcrosses (TB, AQHA, Arabian ), but that outcross parent is on the papers, along with their breed registration #


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Yes, lets leave the PItt Bull type dog debate where it belongs, as I belong to another horse board, that features an open debate board,Just suffered through along Pitt Bull debate there.
There are undoubtedly some nice individual Pitt Bulls, owned by responsible people, and any dog can attack /bite. That is a given.
HOwever, that doe snot change the fact that Pitt Bull types, making up a small % of total dog population, still lead in incidents of serious dog attacks and resulting deaths, against all other breeds combined.
They were bred for it-used in fighting pits and Bull baiting


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

WhattaTroublemaker said:


> Yes I have to geld him to go to school out in AB. He will have no breeding career. I bought him off a guy who had two app mares thrown in with a paint stallion. That stallion had the nicest temperament of any of the studs we met that day so I opted to buy Trouble.



Have you yet decided when to come to Alberta, as I think that was your plan, over a year ago, and to also bring another horse for cowhorse training
Glad you decided to geld Trouble, as it takes a good stud to make a great gelding.
Funny how some people still do just random breeding! Throwing a Paint stud in with Appaloosa mares! Even if those mares and that stud were both registered with their associations, none of their offspring would be with either
Would not be surprised if none of those horses were broke either.
A great example of indiscriminate breeding that helps to fuel the number of unwanted horses.
Glad you are giving Trouble a chance!


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

Smilie said:


> Have you yet decided when to come to Alberta, as I think that was your plan, over a year ago, and to also bring another horse for cowhorse training
> Glad you decided to geld Trouble, as it takes a good stud to make a great gelding.
> Funny how some people still do just random breeding! Throwing a Paint stud in with Appaloosa mares! Even if those mares and that stud were both registered with their associations, none of their offspring would be with either
> Would not be surprised if none of those horses were broke either.
> ...


Yeah unfortunately none of the horses were more than halter broke. But when we were in the pen trying to wrangle the colts that big old stud didn't bat an ear. I was blown away by his temperament. I couldn't have gotten a better deal either, trailered right to my dooryard for 500$ it left me with money to fix up a quarantine place for him and buy some necessities.

And I will be Alberta bound in August! I was accepted into Lakeland for the fall of 2016!


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## WestCoasted (Jan 19, 2016)

Smilie said:


> Funny how some people still do just random breeding! Throwing a Paint stud in with Appaloosa mares! Even if those mares and that stud were both registered with their associations, none of their offspring would be with either


Studies have shown that greater genetic diversity yields a more survivable animal. If you're purpose doesn't require the paper, than your goal in breeding is to create an animal with the best possible physique (and brain) for your purpose.


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

WestCoasted said:


> Studies have shown that greater genetic diversity yields a more survivable animal. If you're purpose doesn't require the paper, than your goal in breeding is to create an animal with the best possible physique (and brain) for your purpose.


Funny thing is that both his parents are registered :lol: but papers weren't what I was looking for. I just so happened to fall in love with a nutcase we had to rope from the back of a truck. It turned out to be the best decision I've ever made and inspired me to one day adopt a couple BLM colts.


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## WestCoasted (Jan 19, 2016)

WhattaTroublemaker said:


> I couldn't have gotten a better deal either, trailered right to my dooryard for 500$ it left me with money to fix up a quarantine place for him and buy some necessities.


I love stories like this. 

When I was 15 I bought a yearling Arab-ish colt sight unseen for $400. I was an idiot at fifteen with more drive than brains. Nurture or nature, I don't know, but that was one of the smartest, sweetest horses I've ever ridden. 

At two and a half we faced down a pack of loose rottweilers. That little gelding had the sense to let me back him straight for 200feet. Even up and down 2 small hills. When he was ten he helped a ninety year old man fulfill his life dream of riding an Arabian. 

That horse changed my entire view of Arabs and his background was wholly unknown.


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

WestCoasted said:


> I love stories like this.
> 
> When I was 15 I bought a yearling Arab-ish colt sight unseen for $400. I was an idiot at fifteen with more drive than brains. Nurture or nature, I don't know, but that was one of the smartest, sweetest horses I've ever ridden.
> 
> ...


Literally I was 16 when I bought Trouble. He was my sweet sixteen birthday present after my project mare came up dead lame-pasture sound only. He is literally the sweetest stud colt I've ever had the pleasure to even meet, let alone own. I got him he was nine months old never handled, buddy dropped him off, chuted him into the barn and told me "I wouldn't go in there for awhile." A skimmed right past him, strapped my helmet on and I was off to gentle my "wild colt". After a month of quarantine he followed me out of the barn, around the whole fence line, past the other horses, and back to the barn on a slack lead. He grazed quietly while I dozed in the grass. He's the sanest mount I've ever had, a real babysitter. We joke and call him the 40 year old colt because he has such an old soul. A complete "been there, done that, got the t shirt" horse.


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## WestCoasted (Jan 19, 2016)

That's what I love about all this DNA testing. It shows that "pure-bred" is a state of mind. Papers are just paper, after all. 

I think of registration like a college degree. Both pieces of paper warrant higher prices/salary. But having degrees doesn't make me better than anyone else. "Papers" don't make one horse better than another. 

Gem Twist would still have been Gem Twist if his papers were eaten by dinosaurs.

Disclaimer: These are my opinions and mine alone. I am only expressing a point of view. I am not attacking anyone's lifestyle, livelihood, or discipline.


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

WestCoasted said:


> That's what I love about all this DNA testing. It shows that "pure-bred" is a state of mind. Papers are just paper, after all.
> 
> I think of registration like a college degree. Both pieces of paper warrant higher prices/salary. But having degrees doesn't make me better than anyone else. "Papers" don't make one horse better than another.
> 
> ...


Well, my dad always told me: " you can't ride papers!"


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

WhattaTroublemaker said:


> Literally I was 16 when I bought Trouble. He was my sweet sixteen birthday present after my project mare came up dead lame-pasture sound only. He is literally the sweetest stud colt I've ever had the pleasure to even meet, let alone own. I got him he was nine months old never handled, buddy dropped him off, chuted him into the barn and told me "I wouldn't go in there for awhile." A skimmed right past him, strapped my helmet on and I was off to gentle my "wild colt". After a month of quarantine he followed me out of the barn, around the whole fence line, past the other horses, and back to the barn on a slack lead. He grazed quietly while I dozed in the grass. He's the sanest mount I've ever had, a real babysitter. We joke and call him the 40 year old colt because he has such an old soul. A complete "been there, done that, got the t shirt" horse.


Congrats at being accepted.
Actually, unhandled 9 month old colts are not that much different then colts handled earlier, far as final product, ect. I have handled, trained many of both kind, raising Appaloosas, and also buying un touched 7 to 9 month old PMU colts, from a breeder that used registered running App bred stallions, and AQHA and App mares in his PMU operation.
Certainly, I know you don't ride papers, and was not criticizing your buying of Trouble, but you have top admit, that person was just breeding horses, as you can't survive breeding horses, selling them for around $500, delivered!
He had a backyard breeding operation, and that does not mean some of those horses won't make good using horses, but it is not a sound breeding operation. I always figured, even using my own mares and stallion, by the time I fed that mare correctly, both the year she was in foal,, and the year that foal was on her, That baby was worth $2,000 when it hit the ground-and that is buying my own hay! Minerals cost money, de worming cost money, immunization costs money


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Glad you found a great companion, but he is not rare, far as having a great mind
I was fortunate to have many of those horses in my life, out of our breeding program.
My one gelding, I started when he was two, and I was on chemo for breast cancer, so certainly not in tip top shape for starting a horse!Never taught Einstein to lunge even. I think I rode him in the round pen twice, and then in the open fields
He became an ApHCC supreme member of the breed, during a time I knew way less about training then now-and I realize, now after he is gone, just how exceptional he was I also rode countless mountain miles on him, many trails by by self, and he was always there for me.
I bred a mare out to a running AQHA stallion, that was herself race bred. That colt should have been hot, but he was one of the easiest stallion to start under saddle.
I sold him as a stallion prospect, and discovered that the new owners kids were riding him, as he was the most broke horse they had!

Three year old stallion-not a short horse!



My Einstein



Horse in background, is a PMU colt I bought as an untouched colt at age 9 months
filly in front, is a filly I rescued at about age 1 1/2 from people that were ignorant about horses, and she was just left neglected in a pasture, as the kids became interested in motor bikes. I stared her for hubby. she was Colorado Ranger bred


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

Smilie said:


> Glad you found a great companion, but he is not rare, far as having a great mind
> I was fortunate to have many of those horses in my life, out of our breeding program.
> My one gelding, I started when he was two, and I was on chemo for breast cancer, so certainly not in tip top shape for starting a horse!Never taught Einstein to lunge even. I think I rode him in the round pen twice, and then in the open fields
> He became an ApHCC supreme member of the breed, during a time I knew way less about training then now-and I realize, now after he is gone, just how exceptional he was I also rode countless mountain miles on him, many trails by by self, and he was always there for me.
> ...


I love hearing stories of great horses! It's got to be a combination of a good mind/good handler though, because I know some people I wouldn't dream of letting touch Trouble. Einstein looks wonderful! And yeah, these people really should NOT be breeding horses. Half the reason I chose trouble was to get him the heck out of there. There was barbed wire EVERYWHERE, rutty plowed land, stacks of phone poles, rusted car frames and pieces of scrap metal all throughout the pasture. He told me of last years colt that looked like trouble but black and white who broke his leg and managed to keep trucking through the winter, they ended up shooting him because it healed wonky and he couldn't get around.


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## WestCoasted (Jan 19, 2016)

Smilie said:


> That baby was worth $2,000 when it hit the ground-and that is buying my own hay! Minerals cost money, de worming cost money, immunization costs money


lol, This is why I'm too cheap/lazy to breed my own. I love baby pictures, hearing stories, and petting velvety noses. I'm not so fond of sleepless nights and extra vet bills. I'll take a good to go, blank slate any day. .

Disclaimer: This is my personal opinion and mine alone. I am not faulting anyone for breeding. Nor am I suggesting that my view is any better than anyone else.

What was is thread about again? Sorry all, for tangential chatter.:wink:


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Yes, we did get off topic!
Glad Trouble found a good home!
Back to DNA. I guess i pretty much said what I intended on that, a few posts back, LOL!
DNA typing is not going to pin point any exact parentage, as those parents aren't pure bred isolated genetic pools to begin with, thus have diverse genetics themselves, from various breeds that created them.
There are isolated groups of Mustangs, like the Prior Range Mustangs, that have had little outside influence from other horses, thus can be determined to originate from those original Iberian horses Other than that, mustangs are just feral horses that have bred randomly, incorporating genetics from many breeds.


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## WestCoasted (Jan 19, 2016)

Well Turkmenistan has been "the crossroads of civilizations for centuries."
I suppose it's possible that a stallion was sold to a traveler who brought it to America. That doesn't sound too far fetched. (terrible pun!!)


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

My fiance WONT take registration papers -_-'. his paint COULD have been registered but he could care less. two mustangs and a tb type thing that has no papers. best horses he has ever had lol! and a lot cheaper too. That being said i LIKE papers for the sake of papers and possibly breed shows.

That being said out total understanding of equine genetics is not complete. new things crop up every day. they have discovered two new dilution genes. one in arabians and another in morgans. they have run every color test on these animals and their affected offspring and they cant figure out what or where it is. I find it fascinating though!

the arabians with the mutation all look like silver dapples with blue/golden eyes. 


















the morgans are also similar



























Point is that there is still alot we dont know about the genetics of horses so it makes testing for them harder. especially if newer members of a breed have been effected by a minute genetic variation from when say the same breed was introduced to mustangs. A good number of the breeds that "founded" the mustang population dont even exist anymore.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I never said a grade horse would not make a good horse, you just don't form a breeding program around grade horses.
Both appaloosas and paints are a color based registry, so no serious breeder would breed then together, as both registries discourage any such cross
Papers do allow a better record of parentage, but if you don't show or breed, then you do not need papers.
At the same time, there is the idea of getting an unregistered horse cheaP! Here is an example. I get a phone call from a buyer that wants a black and white Appaloosa that anyone can ride, but doe snot need papers-ie thinks the horse will be cheap, with all that proven breeding and training for nothing.
Asked how much he was willing to pay. Answer was around $1,000 to $1,500.
Told him the all breed horse sale at innisfail was not far away!
I am not knocking grade ehorses, if you just want a good riding horse. What I said that you don't build a breeding program around just turning any stud out with a bunch of mares
Those offspring often show up at the local all breed horse sale, and not all are as lucky as Trouble, in finding a good home!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Genetic testing works for 'pure breds', where there has been no inter breeding for generations.
It does not work for the general horse population as many breeds share common genetics
Mustangs are not a distinct breed, but just feral horses that have interbred for ages
Besides those horses brought over by the Spaniards , the mustangs resulted from remount horses turned loose, stollen ranch horses, including drafts, and even some gaited influence, through the Spanish Jenet


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

Smilie said:


> I never said a grade horse would not make a good horse, you just don't form a breeding program around grade horses.
> Both appaloosas and paints are a color based registry, so no serious breeder would breed then together, as both registries discourage any such cross
> Papers do allow a better record of parentage, but if you don't show or breed, then you do not need papers.
> At the same time, there is the idea of getting an unregistered horse cheaP! Here is an example. I get a phone call from a buyer that wants a black and white Appaloosa that anyone can ride, but doe snot need papers-ie thinks the horse will be cheap, with all that proven breeding and training for nothing.
> ...


That stupid mind set comes from breeders like the one I met last summer: she had a gorgeous place, poco Bueno and doc oléna lines, absolutely astounding horses. The thing was, you could literally take the horses without payment without papers. You could literally back a trailer to the place, load up the weanling and take it away without paying. But you won't get the papers. Stupid in my opinion. 

Now I was looking back to our registered apps bloodlines, and she goes back to Sundance and mustangs. She's got a bit of thoroughbred and quarter horses back there as well. But I'd love to see the basis of those mustang lines.


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## WestCoasted (Jan 19, 2016)

I think I read somewhere on this forum about a mustang who had unusually soft, velvety fur. Maybe there was a bit of akhal teke there, too.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

WhattaTroublemaker said:


> That stupid mind set comes from breeders like the one I met last summer: she had a gorgeous place, poco Bueno and doc oléna lines, absolutely astounding horses. The thing was, you could literally take the horses without payment without papers. You could literally back a trailer to the place, load up the weanling and take it away without paying. But you won't get the papers. Stupid in my opinion.


Sounds like they focus on quantity over quality, or a tax write off. Shady sounding breeding business in general to me. Those who carefully breed for a purpose will not dump off promising weanlings to be forever grade as that defeats the purpose of careful breeding as your name as a breeder is always printed on registration papers. 

Reality is, by the time a reputable breeder has produced a foal that is ready to be weaned, the breeder already has large amounts of money invested into each foal. For the same cost for a reputable breeder to produce a quality foal, the average horse lover could buy a well broke horse that might even be registered. At an all breed auction, you can buy several horses for the same cost to breed a single well thought out foal.


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