# Barn remodel - worth an indoor area?



## Ace80908 (Apr 21, 2011)

Not indoor arena - just an indoor work space.

I have a pole barn that needs a remodel. The wood is split and rotten, so the stalls will need to be rebuilt. 

I am seriously considering removing everything from inside the barn and building off the side of the barn -adding a 24 foot side as my picture below illustrates (forgive the crappy paint program and my less than stellar artistic skills).

This would give me a 12 foot wide aisle, then 12 foot by 12 foot stalls - which I would open to the outside as well so I could attach runs to them.

I would then have a 30 by 50 indoor work space for the horses - not near big enough to ride in, but I do the in hand trail, and it would give me enough room to set up a gate, a back through, and walk overs so we could practice the elements of a trail course when the weather doesn't cooperate with me going outdoors. 

I have a separate run in shed that I could use for hay and barn clutter storage, but would have to figure out where to put the tack (the good stuff I keep in the house now, and the working tack stays locked in my trailer - so I rarely use my tack room now... 

Any thoughts or suggestions?

I have about 4,000 to spend on this, and can reuse the stall fronts as they are high quality, very thick oak (I think) plywood. I put them in with screws. All the stalls side walls and supporting frames are shot though.

some pics - first is barn as is, second barn as desired, then a couple interior shots now. The floor is concrete so I would have to put about a foot of dirt in, but there is tons of ceiling height so now worries there, and there wont be anything but walking, setting, and trotting off and over obstacles....


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## Chevaux (Jun 27, 2012)

For our tack room, we bought a resin garden shed (about 5' x 6'; complete with floor) and set it up. We bought it on sale so saved dollars and it only took a couple of hours to assemble - all in all much cheaper and quicker than building a tack room. You may want to consider this type of arrangement after you do your renos. You could put in a corner and it wouldn't take up much space. It is a very fine thing to have any size tack room inside and available when the weather is against you. If it turns out it's not working for you, you can always move it outside and use it for something else or even resell it.


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## Ace80908 (Apr 21, 2011)

That's an excellent idea - thanks Chevaux... I sometimes see them used on Craigslist for super cheap as well.

As more money becomes available, I could always build a matching wing on the other side - 

I work 12 hour shifts, and every two months we rotate between days and mids - when I work days I don't get home until 8 at night. Having a small area to keep the yearlings in work will be incredibly helpful getting them ready for show season - right now I lose too many days to the wind, the snow, or my work schedule... an indoor is not in my immediate future, so this may be a workable compromise.


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## EdmontonHorseGal (Jun 2, 2013)

firstly i must say - your 'less than stellar art skills' are pretty darn good! way better than i could have done, that's for sure.

i like the idea of a small indoor 'arena' space like this. gives you room to work when the weather is against you, but isn't big enough to keep you inside when you honestly shouldn't be (i've been guilty of using the indoor when it was gorgeous outside before! lol).

an added bonus is room to give horses turnout time when the weather is horrid too!


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## Ace80908 (Apr 21, 2011)

That's true - I am breeding Daisy this year, so if weather is terrible next year Mom and baby can stretch their legs....


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## sparks879 (Apr 14, 2013)

I had a friend in Michigan that had a space similar to this. She made the corners round so it was more like a round pen. It was great for winter work. mares and babies stretching legs. And yes we even used it for a little riding when starting horses. It was big enough to walk trot in, but hers was more like sixty feet.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Booo Hoo I can't see the plans, only pics. I would certainly vote for having an indoor area, so useful to be able to do all sorts of things, I would kill to have even 30' x 50' to use.


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## EdmontonHorseGal (Jun 2, 2013)

Golden Horse said:


> Booo Hoo I can't see the plans, only pics. I would certainly vote for having an indoor area, so useful to be able to do all sorts of things, I would kill to have even 30' x 50' to use.


that's all there is Golden, pics. if you look closely at the second barn pic, you'll see the drawn in addition on the right. OP did it so good it looks like it's already part of the building! lol


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

OOPS, so it is, looks GOOD, do it


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## Left Hand Percherons (Feb 1, 2011)

Follow the roof line of the original structure so it doesn't look like an addition. That will also help keep things cool in the summer.

$4000 isn't going to go far. That "might" cover the roof structure. Can you reuse the metal? If you have some panels hanging around, put the stall fronts and sides on where they will go and build the back wall out of the panels. If it takes until Sept to get things done, I think you will be happier with the results. Adding doors to the back will get expensive with all the hardware you need.

Have you ever been to Centennial's consignment auction? They sold premade trusses cheap cheap last month and because the turnout was so bad they are having another one in March. (16' trusses were going for about $5 each). If you found some and could incorporate them into the design you could save $2K right off the top as well as a ton of time.


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## Ace80908 (Apr 21, 2011)

You are right, LHP, I started pricing everything and looks like I'll need to double my budget to get everything I want. I found this picture from a much earlier post in barn maintenance, and this is the direction I want to go, with the exception that the stalls will have a back opening as well so I can attach runs to the back.

We will be building ourselves, husband is a master electrician and he is calling in some favors with his construction buddies - so that helps on costs alot. But building according to code for permit requirements makes it much more expensive - the 10 foot aisle has to have 2x8x10s for the rafters 24" on center, and since I want my stalls to be 12 by 16, the rafters for the stalls have to be 12" on center. And the pitch requirement due to our snow load means that the roof will have to start just under the original structure, which I agree will look better, improve air flow, and give us a lot more height in the barn.

I mapped out the 30 by 50 in my arena - set up posts and roped it off then brought my yearling in to see exactly what I could accomplish. I can get a set of walk/trot overs in one side, then an L and a gate on the other - we can trot between obstacles. It is really small, but functional and I think it will be a great help for obstacle tuneups... 

Luckily my husband is on board - he agrees that it is a good compromise for now, and since we will do according to code and will file the permits, it will increase our property value. In a couple years, when we are ready, we can add an indoor right behind and leave the open area for tractor and even trailer storage. We are having a buddy of his come over this weekend so we can start the plans and file a permit with the city. 

As things progress I'll keep everyone posted.

I am pretty pleased. I do need to check out the Centennial auction, what is it called and when is it?


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Your stall sizes are pretty generous which will require a lot of bedding. 12 x12 is a nice size with one larger foaling stall. A stable I rode at used double 2x8" uprights on the corners, spaced 1,3/4" apart. The dividing stall boards were stacked in between the uprights. If a much larger stall was needed, the boards were slipped out and voila, a double sized stall.


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## Ace80908 (Apr 21, 2011)

Yep, I like big stalls ... right now I have two 12 x 24 (middle dividers taken out of four 12 by 12 stalls) and a 12 x 12. My horses stay in from dinner to breakfast so I like them to have plenty of room. And you are right, lots of bedding. Luckily my horses are fairly clean, pooping in the corners, so I don't have to spend a crazy amount of time cleaning.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Off topic, but is that a dog in the picture? Looks like a big siamese cat!


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## Ace80908 (Apr 21, 2011)

oh him? That's my little itty bitty hound dog, Tugg.

He's an English Mastiff and is my constant shadow. Here he is with my hubby.


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## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

Instead of doing something totally enclosed would you be willing to stretch your $$$ by just having a covered arena with no sides? Idk where you are, but here is New York it's better then nothing. As long as the footing stay dry it stays soft. Parts started to freeze once the snow started melting, but I think it was more due to the ground sloping into the arena instead of away from it. Plus it helps with the rain and sun in the summer. Lastly, you can always put sides on it a few years down the road if you feel like you want or need it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ace80908 (Apr 21, 2011)

Slidestop, our biggest problems here are wind (65 mph gusts three days ago) and cold. Our snow is usually light (we are high desert), but the wind is typically non stop from March to July - and temps start getting frigid about December and last until March (when the winds come). 

I think a covered arena with no walls would not offer enough protection against the wind and cold - we dont have trees (high desert) so nothing to block the wind. Plus, it would still be out of my budget for now - I am just looking for the interim fix - I am hoping to have an indoor in about five years.


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## Left Hand Percherons (Feb 1, 2011)

If you go 12x16, that only leaves you with an 8' aisleway. It's nice to have the full 12' so you can drive a truck inside but not the end of the world. What's your goal? 3 12x16 plus 1 12x24? Having runs off the stalls will give you some fudge for going with the smaller stalls.

Centennial Livestock (claauction.com I think) is the sale yard off of I25 and 14 on the N side of FC. They are having an extra consignment auction March 8. You can watch it online. Fort Collins Truss is right nextdoor and they take over their oops and 2nd trusses and sell them that way. Hit and miss as to what they might have. I have a trailer that I have been trying to sell on CL and if it doesn't sell by than, I will run it up there. If I go, i'll let you know what's up there.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

Off Topic--Another Coloradan?! 8D I didn't realize :>

Looking forward to seeing what you decide!


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## Cynical25 (Mar 7, 2013)

The small covered area where I lease my horse (maybe 30x50 but with 6 support beams to work around) was GREATLY appreciated during the fall rainy season and on cold winter days! Not appropriate to ride in, but plenty big for walk/trot ground work and being able to stretch the legs when foul weather had my youngster stalled a few days straight.


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## Ace80908 (Apr 21, 2011)

LHP - Thanks! I appreciate it! Here is the basic drawing I did to show the construction guy what I have in mind, I think this will be ideal. That side of the barn is pretty tore up, so we wont be able to reuse any of the metal siding, but I am thinking I will just leave the addition exposed to the existing pole barn interior, just put up a half wall. That might make it feel more open, and then horses in stalls can watch and learn


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## Ace80908 (Apr 21, 2011)

I guess it doesn't like that picture - tried to upload it twice... hmmm...


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## Left Hand Percherons (Feb 1, 2011)

instead of a half wall, just put up panels there. You need to have it completely enclosed. If you don't like it, you just use the panels on the runs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Left Hand Percherons (Feb 1, 2011)

Will help with air flow in our miserable Summers too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ace80908 (Apr 21, 2011)

Contractor came out today, is drawing up plans and will let me know in about a week. He's a buddy of my husbands, which is nice because it looks like an engineer may be needed to sign off the permits because we'll be tying into an existing structure - and since he knows the engineer, it wont be too terribly expensive. I'll keep you all posted as we progress, he thinks we can begin construction end of March... I'm cool with that! Can't wait to see plans.


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## Ace80908 (Apr 21, 2011)

So we hit a few snags - 

1. The original pole barn apparently had no permits pulled. It's been there since I bought the place, so was built at least 20 years ago, and may be able to be grandfathered in without costly penalty fees. Only way to find out is to start the paperwork for the new permits and fall upon the mercy of the county - which I am hesitant to do... they COULD (not that I think they would) tell us to pull down the barn. Or charge us thousands in fees. Or just let it go... no way to know.

2. The pitch requirements mean the extension needs to be much shorter than originally planned - so now looking at 10 foot aisle and 4 12x12 stalls - which will be fine, cost less in materials, and be easier to build - but smaller stalls than I currently have and like for the horses. I will use removable center dividers so I can have a foaling stall... but still not what I was hoping for.

3. Cost estimates at this point are 8,000 - and that is with Hubby and I doing a lot of the work, but having contractors out for putting posts in the ground and getting the beams up... not including permit costs as no way to know what those will be yet....

So, hubby and I are deciding if we just build to code without permits (we live in a pretty rural area so not a lot of risk), just replacing my stalls inside the current barn and fixing it, or biting the bullet and moving forward with permits and hoping for the best. 

I'm kinda freaked out about opening a can of worms... worst case scenario is the building inspector comes out, denies the addition, and fines me out the wazoo for not ensuring permits were pulled on the existing barn - but since I bought the property with it (over 15 years ago), it never occured to me to look.


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## Ace80908 (Apr 21, 2011)

Well - we are going with plan B - I just found the most excellent deal on a modular barn - it's a Port-a-stall - has 4 12x16 stalls, two on each side with a 12 foot center aisle. Nice thing is this company is still making stalls and the panels are interchangeable so I can freshen it up.

The barn is about 20 minutes away from my house, and I ended up buying it for - wait for it - $2750. It's going to cost $2500- $3000 to have it disassembled and brought to my property - depending upon the time it will take. I will need to replace the insulation so going to order that now. 

I am thinking I will place it 20 feet to the side of my existing barn and then allow for runs ... then paint them both to match.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

The permits determine your taxes. Don't forget that satellite that takes pics of your property. No one has to even get off their duff to see what you've added.


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## Ace80908 (Apr 21, 2011)

El Paso county does not require permits for temporary structures - and since this modular barn has no foundation - it is classified as temporary... no permits required.  I double checked. "temporary structures or less than 200 sq ft do not require permit"


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## Ace80908 (Apr 21, 2011)

Construction has begun! 

Decided to place it directly in front of existing barn, so it will be one big barn. Stalls in front and work area behind. There are 4 12x16 stalls, but I will use one for hay storage and tack. The majority of our hay will be stored in another building, just putting about 30 bales in this barn to save on feed times.

Got the doors off the existing barn and started to level it - borrowed a tractor from a friend up the road. Then the crew started putting the addition up, and we found it required a really level surface for all the pieces to fit back together,so they spent a morning re-doing the ground work. Yesterday they got the stalls up, and I am hoping the roof gets on today. 

I love that my truck fits in the aisle.

This barn is a lot more closed than I would like, so we are going to put in windows in the stalls for light and air circulation, and I am going to modify the panels between the stalls, cut them down so horses can see each other. Then hubby is going to put bars in so they can't get at each other. There is some rust on the bottom of the panels, so we cleaned and primed the steel supports, and some of the steel inside the stalls has worn away, so I am going to spray the rubber flex seal on the bottom 2 feet of each stall to protect horses and stalls from damage.

Pretty excited about how it is coming along, will post more pics as build continues.


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## Cynical25 (Mar 7, 2013)

Exciting!


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

ace,I am just curious as thats more than 200 sq ft . even though it states temporary structures, anything larger then 200 sq ft is not considered temporary by the wording of the law. 
here, you can have an 8x10 building with no electric w/o a permit. anything with electric needs a permit. 
You may not have a problem with your county , but if you go to sell, or someone turns you in for something you may have issues . hope it goes well


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## Ace80908 (Apr 21, 2011)

No - it's fine. I didn't get back into it on the post, but checked with zoning and the reason the original barn didn't get a permit was we qualify as Ranch property, so are exempt from the permit requirement for ag purpose. For Ranch exemption you have to have at least 3 acres, and breed animals or raise animals for consumption. The exemptions are obviously more complex, but those are the key reasons we didn't need permit.


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## Ace80908 (Apr 21, 2011)

RBC105.2 WORK EXEMPT FROM PERMITS
RBC105.2.1 Construction and Installations. Permits shall not be required for the following:
21. Agricultural buildings and agricultural structures located in the County, as defined by the El Paso County Land Development Code.
Land Development Code defines Ag building as follows:
Structure, Agricultural - 
For the purpose of determining exemption from the Building Code, any structure used for the sole purpose of providing shelter for agricultural implements, farm products, livestock (including horses) or poultry as intended in C.R.S. 30-28-201(1).


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## Left Hand Percherons (Feb 1, 2011)

What's the orientation of the barn? If one set of runs is on the N side, you're going to have mud problems. How are you diverting runoff?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ace80908 (Apr 21, 2011)

Barn door opens to the West. There are two stalls on the North side, but neither will have runs. One is a tack stall. The two stalls to the south will have runs but have dutch doors that will stay shut most of the time. The pasture has a run in shed that horses can use to get out of the weather if they are out during the day. We mostly use the stalls at night, bringing them in to eat dinner and letting them back out after breakfast. 

The entire property is on a downslope to the South, so we will use the tractor to put in french drains around the barn on the North side and direct runoff behind and around the barn, and then let the water drain off to the South - also putting gutters in on the addition.

We live in high desert so not a lot of rain here, and even last year when Colorado had very heavy rains (flooding) the water ran off pretty well... Winds are more of a problem here, one of the reasons we wont put a run in on the stall to the North as it would serve as a wind tunnel in the barn.

Today the wind kicked up as the crew was putting on the roof, so they went home and we are hoping for a calmer day tomorrow so they can finish. It's about halfway done at this point.


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## womack29 (Oct 30, 2011)

Awesome idea in my opinion


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## Ace80908 (Apr 21, 2011)

The crew got the roof on and the barn doors up. I spent all day taping up the insulation. - the moving costs added up, so I reused the old insulation and there were many areas that just ruined. Had to do some creative re-use, didn't put in on the last 3 feet of each stall and will have to go back and do those next.

You can't see it from this angle, but the big windows in the old barn are still there and let in lots of natural light so happy with that.

I bought some windows too as the stalls are just too dark, and hubby and I will be doing those next. Then paint and trim. 

It's getting there.


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## Ace80908 (Apr 21, 2011)

Work coming along - got the barn stall lights in, dragged the mats from the old barn to the new barn stalls and aisle, cut the bars off the stall doors (except the feed stall) so horses can hang their heads over the doors at night, and sealed the roof - horses are now in the new barn for the nights and seem very pleased with the big stalls. 

Hoping to get the stall windows and aisle lights in this weekend.


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## Ace80908 (Apr 21, 2011)

lets try that pic again.


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## Chevaux (Jun 27, 2012)

It's looking good, Ace. I am curious - what did you use to cut the bars off? Angle grinder?


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## Left Hand Percherons (Feb 1, 2011)

Coming along nicely. It's great you're not going to spending your summer building. The natural light really helps.


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## Ace80908 (Apr 21, 2011)

Yep - angle grinder - the bars were actually only tacked on front and back so once I got through the front 1/8 inch, I went to the other side of the stall and did the same, then used a mallet to break it free on the bottom. Once the bottom was free I just bent it back and forth and the top snapped off. Not real solid construction, but worked in my favor.

My husband got the windows in - I used small sliders so they wouldn't think about going through them - haven't put the trim on but I love how much light they are letting in. I am going to go buy more and put them in another panel to really let the natural light in. Spidey likes to stand by his window and look outside.

I spent the weekend gutting out the old barn, ripping the stalls down and cleaning everything up. I figure I can put in my order for the dirt soon - I think I am just going to use topsoil dirt? Maybe mixed with a little sand? Not sure - it'll be about 6 inches at first, then let them pack that down, and get more as needed. They will only be walking/jogging in it so I don't think it needs to be that deep. Any suggestions?

Here are the pics of progress from the weekend.


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## Left Hand Percherons (Feb 1, 2011)

6" of dirt is hard to walk in. Dirt is also going to be terribly dusty. If you're just WT, I'd try just mats down first. Trot them down the aisle way and see how hard the concussion is. There is a guy in Denver that has a recycling business that has rolls of rubber belting (2-4' wide). If you have any quarries nearby you might be able to pick up some for free or cheap. (grab me one too!) Someone at Horse Expo had some pretty neat interlocking rubber bricks but I'm sure they aren't cheap. What about rubber crumb?

for sand coverage it's one ton covers 220 sq ft 1".


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

It looks like things are really coming along! How exciting <3


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## Ace80908 (Apr 21, 2011)

I thought about mats but was worried about trying to pivot on a rubber mat, I was considering rubber crumb though - I agree the dust from dirt would be an issue, and watering it down would be more difficult in winter... maybe a few inches of sand and then crumbles on top? I am afraid there wouldn't be enough "catch" using sand alone - that their feet would slide a bit...


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## Ace80908 (Apr 21, 2011)

Got the barn gutted completely, swept out, and windows in - it's light and bright in there now. Getting ready for footing - going to visit the sand and gravel place tomorrow and look at my options...


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## Ace80908 (Apr 21, 2011)

I got the sand in - I put 4 inches of mason sand in - fine, but angular and a little gritty so it should grab the concrete a bit. I will let this settle and pack down a bit, then put some rubber crumbles on top. 

I trotted Howard around it - had no problems. I think this will work pretty well - small, but big enough to accomplish something when the weather prevents me from going outside.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

that looks nice. having window that open will help keep some of the barn smells down 
you could even put a fan in there for summer if it gets to hot to ride outside.


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## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

That is pretty freaking awesome! You've done a great job!


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## Ace80908 (Apr 21, 2011)

The two high windows across the top of the barn open and the two doors that open on the side have open space above them for air flow as well - The two big windows down the barn wall are actually old patio sliders we have had sitting in the shed for about three years - I like them there because they let in a ton of light but are really thick and tempered glass.

Thanks, Stevenson and Evilamc - I am really pleased with progress - still need more windows in stalls, rubber crumbles, my tack/feed stall put together and then a good coat of paint all the way around - but we are getting there


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