# Chain Bits.....



## Zimalia

Actually, there are a lot of horses that do prefer a chain bit. They are flexible, and the horse can get it where he likes it.
Any bit can be harsh or severe. It's all in the hands that hold the reins. 

Give it a try!


----------



## gypsygirl

i actually really like chain bits. they have a lot there if you need it, but they lay really nicely in the horses mouth. my horse likes chain bits, they can actually be pretty soft since there are tons of pressure points.


----------



## SorrelHorse

I have a mare that really likes the chain bit simply because it IS flexible, like Zimalia said.


----------



## Katze

Are chain bits for all around riding i.e english and western or western riding only?


----------



## gypsygirl

you can get chain bits for english [a snaffle not a curb], but they dont seem to be that common, at least around here - i have one though it was hard to find !


----------



## CJ82Sky

first, any bit that is based on pain is not one i'd ever want to use. bits are NOT brakes, they are about communication.

that said sounds like 1) this horse needs his teeth done and 2) needs to be retrained to ACCEPT the bit starting with a simple snaffle either mullen, single jointed smooth mouth, or double jointed with a french link or bean (yes even for western). once the horse has had his teeth properly done and then learns to accept the bit as a means for communication and not pain/brakes, the horse will start to relax and be more responsive.

my guess is the horse is chewing out of discomfort and not throwing his head bc of the severity of the bit. i can put a broken segunda on a head tosser that has teeth issues and if the horse is smart enough he will stop throwing his head. so what does that mean? it means i fixed the symptom - head tossing - and never addressed the issue - needing teeth done for example. it's like buting a horse to make him sound. did you really sound up the horse? no you just masked the pain.

there is no shortcut to a solid foundation for training and acceptance of the aids, and i've never found a horse that prefers an actual chain bit to a softer one that is based on communication and acceptance of the aids.


----------



## gypsygirl

^^have you ever used a chain bit ?


----------



## CJ82Sky

i will not put any bit in my horse's mouth that works on pain rather than communication.

i used a double twisted wire once because the horse was very hard mouthed and i wanted to see if he had nerve damage so i longed him in it. he proceeded to lean just like in a snaffle and we were able to confirm he had nerve damage from the severity of the bits he was ridden in on the track.

i have had horses ridden in front of me in a chain bit and switched them to a much more milder bit and immediately got better results.

i do not believe in training through pain. i believe in training and riding through understanding, respect, and communication. i make sure that all my horses - even the ones that go xc in a pelham or gag (yes i do believe in stronger bits) - can flat in a simple snaffle, be it a mullen, single jointed, or double jointed. i also do NOT EVER believe in any bit that causes pain in the mouth and will ONLY use smooth mouthed bits. the harshest mouthpiece i will ever use is a slow twist and that is rare (like once in YEARS). even my very strong 1800lb clyde cross goes in a bean link snaffle.

any horse that ever comes to me in any wire or chain bit is immediately put in a much more mild bit and retrained from the basics on up to accept rather than run from the bit. i've yet to find a horse (and i've gotten many through the rescue here that i've worked with that have all kinds of issues) that have ever preferred a chain or wire bit to a simple snaffle. i've found chain and wire (and any bits that work on pain) are a quick fix and coverup for improper training. and i've been riding for over 3 decades....


----------



## Lonestar22

Diffrent bits work for different horses. 

I would never think of useing a bit like the one below on my horse, or recomand it to anyone, but some of the best trained horses in the world ride in such bits. 










A "big" bit is not allways a bad thing. It has been repeated so many times that I shouldn't have to say it, but some people still don't understand. 

It isn't the bit, but the hands that use it.


----------



## myhorsesonador

CJ82Sky said:


> that said sounds like 1) this horse needs his teeth done and 2) needs to be retrained to ACCEPT the bit starting with a simple snaffle either mullen, single jointed smooth mouth, or double jointed with a french link or bean (yes even for western). once the horse has had his teeth properly done and then learns to accept the bit as a means for communication and not pain/brakes, the horse will start to relax and be more responsive.
> 
> my guess is the horse is chewing out of discomfort and not throwing his head bc of the severity of the bit. i can put a broken segunda on a head tosser that has teeth issues and if the horse is smart enough he will stop throwing his head. so what does that mean? it means i fixed the symptom - head tossing - and never addressed the issue - needing teeth done for example. it's like buting a horse to make him sound. did you really sound up the horse? no you just masked the pain.
> 
> there is no shortcut to a solid foundation for training and acceptance of the aids, and i've never found a horse that prefers an actual chain bit to a softer one that is based on communication and acceptance of the aids.


Some horses just do that. I've tried every thing with my mare and she still does it unless the bit has a solid mouth piece with shanks. I've had her teeth done, and yes she is trained. She doesn't through her head up but she streaches down and chews on the bit shaking head from side to side.


----------



## CJ82Sky

it is not JUST the hands that make the bit. the hands + the bit will make it harsher or more mild. SOME bits no matter how soft the hands do NOT operate on pressure and communication but via pain (and the threat of pain) such as chains and wire bits. no bicycle chain bit out there is based on communication and even the softest of hands will still cause some level of discomfort based on the design of the bit itself.

i agree - to each his own - however i am proud to say that ALL of my horses (all 5 that are presently under saddle as well as 2 that i owned and passed away in their late 20) go very well in smooth mouthed bits of varying types and styles. and they are all different breeds and disciplines ranging from barrels and rodeo events to jumpers and eventing and foxhunting, from quarterhorses to clyde crosses to off the track arabs to tbs. 

i know that i will never put any bit that has a harsh mouthpiece in any of my horse's mouths.


----------



## Lonestar22

And I know that you can take a snaffle and make it just as harsh as any other bit. 

She is not saying that her sister (correct? can't rember who is riding the horse) is yanking the horses head off with the bit. She is not saying that the bit is being used harshly. 

The horse may like the way that bit feels better than the way a snaffle or other bits feels. 

But, as I said earlier, some people just don't get it. I'm guess you think that curb bits are cruel as well? 

I do agree with you on one point though, a bit isn't a shortcut through the training.


----------



## NdAppy

There are also different types of chain bit out there. Not just bicycle chains.


----------



## Poseidon

I was under the impression it was a chain bit like this:









Not one of those "mule bits" with a bicycle chain. The pictured bit doesn't look nearly as harsh as a bike chain bit. There's a higher risk of pinching, but I can see how some horses would like the flexibility.


----------



## Katze

Lonestar22 said:


> Diffrent bits work for different horses.
> 
> I would never think of useing a bit like the one below on my horse, or recomand it to anyone, but some of the best trained horses in the world ride in such bits.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A "big" bit is not allways a bad thing. It has been repeated so many times that I shouldn't have to say it, but some people still don't understand.
> 
> It isn't the bit, but the hands that use it.


If they are so well trained why would a bit like the one pictured above be even needed??? that makes absolutely no sense to me. A well trained horse should not need a monstrosity of a bit like that in its mouth. I do not beleive that bit = breaks and totally agree with CJ82Sky.

Poseidon I thought that a chain bit looked exactly like the pic you have posted, and it made sense to me that a horse would like to roll that around in his mouth lol.


----------



## Poseidon

Katze, those high port cathedral bits are merely for refinement. The horses are amazingly well trained and it requires very little movement from the rider to communicate with the horse. They aren't overbitted for breaks like it would appear.

Ugh. brain fart. I cannot remember for the life of me what the style of riding is that uses those bits. I can picture what they look like in my head. It's a Spanish style, very elegant and very refined. If someone could kindly mention what it's called, there are many videos on youtube.


----------



## myhorsesonador

Katze said:


> If they are so well trained why would a bit like the one pictured above be even needed??? that makes absolutely no sense to me. A well trained horse should not need a monstrosity of a bit like that in its mouth. I do not beleive that bit = breaks and totally agree with CJ82Sky.
> 
> Poseidon I thought that a chain bit looked exactly like the pic you have posted, and it made sense to me that a horse would like to roll that around in his mouth lol.


it's because thoughs horses are so well trained, they do most every thing off the riders seat. The bit is only used for acute minor aids.


----------



## CJ82Sky

ANY bit that operates on pain is one i will not use. i agree that a so-well trained horse doesn't need anything nearly as harsh. stacy westfall demonstrated that in her TACKless ride.

to whomever said you're so sure that i feel curbs are evil too... reread what i said. i was very clear in EVERY post to refer to MOUTHPIECE of the bit. a bit with a harsh mouthpiece imo does NOT have the potential to be soft. don't believe me, just put a chain bit in your mouth - some of the most sensitive tissues in the body - and have someone use it for communication and see how it feels.

my jumper/eventer/foxhunter goes in a mullen pelham, my clyde cross eventer does xc in a single jointed gag, my QH went in a low port curb for cattle work and snaffle for barrels and speed events. ALL of my horses flatted/hacked in nothing more than some variation of a snaffle (three piece bean, mullen, etc.). EVEN their curb or leverage bits ALL had smooth mouths.

and yes, i know there are more kinds of chain and wire bits than bicycle chain or twisted wire. chain bits are exceptionally harsh due to the pain on jaw, bars, tongue and the wrapround effect even the slightest contact has on the lower jar. i feel ALL chain, wire, and harsh mouthpiece bits work on the principles of PAIN and not PARTNERSHIP.


----------



## NdAppy

Do you really, honestly think that Stacy Westfall just hopped on and rode tackless without training the horse with various bits and other equipment first? If so you are seriously delusional.

A chain bit can be used effectively _without_ causing pain. If that is what the horse is comfortable in, then why not ride in it? _ANY_ bit can and will cause pain if used incorrectly.


----------



## smrobs

Po, it's Vaquero horsemanship that you are looking for . I also agree that anyone using a spade bit properly would never damage a horse's mouth with it. Not only are the horses completely prepared to be ridden in it, the riders prize their horse's mouth over anything else and would never do anything to endanger that. One of the reasons why they use the spade is because of the size and shape of the mouth, the horse carries the bit himself instead of depending on the bridle to keep it in his mouth. Because the horse carries it, he can feel even the slightest twitch in the reins and has been taught to respond so that a twitch is all that is needed even in the most extreme circumstances. Unfortunately, I have never been able to find a really good video demonstrating true Vaquero riding.

As for chain bits, I don't like them. I don't like the way that they feel and of the few horses that I have tried them on, none of them liked them either. Maybe it was the fact that there was no solidity in the bit and it was in constant motion, but even the horses who were normally responsive and relaxed in a normal bit were really sluggish and acted confused when I cued them.

I think the main problem with these bits is that 99% of the time, they _are_ used to cover up training gaps instead of trying to figure out what is causing the problem to begin with and fixing that. Even the mildest chain mouth bit has the potential to be so much more damaging than most solid or even broken bits. In a normal snaffle or even a mild curb, I can take a horse's head in an emergency and not have to worry about really inflicting injury on him. With chain, it would be so easy to really tear them up in a moment of excitement or panic.


----------



## JustDressageIt

Exactly, smrobs most people I see using chain bits are not great horsemen, and are trying for a quick fix.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Poseidon

CJ82Sky said:


> ANY bit that operates on pain is one i will not use. i agree that a so-well trained horse doesn't need anything nearly as harsh. stacy westfall demonstrated that in her TACKless ride.
> 
> to whomever said you're so sure that i feel curbs are evil too... reread what i said. i was very clear in EVERY post to refer to MOUTHPIECE of the bit. a bit with a harsh mouthpiece imo does NOT have the potential to be soft. don't believe me, just put a chain bit in your mouth - some of the most sensitive tissues in the body - and have someone use it for communication and see how it feels.
> 
> my jumper/eventer/foxhunter goes in a mullen pelham, my clyde cross eventer does xc in a single jointed gag, my QH went in a low port curb for cattle work and snaffle for barrels and speed events. ALL of my horses flatted/hacked in nothing more than some variation of a snaffle (three piece bean, mullen, etc.). EVEN their curb or leverage bits ALL had smooth mouths.
> 
> and yes, i know there are more kinds of chain and wire bits than bicycle chain or twisted wire. chain bits are exceptionally harsh due to the pain on jaw, bars, tongue and the wrapround effect even the slightest contact has on the lower jar. i feel ALL chain, wire, and harsh mouthpiece bits work on the principles of PAIN and not PARTNERSHIP.


I would just like to add my two cents for what it's worth and say that every horse is different. All of those bits you've mentioned you use on your horses would be uncomfortable for my mare, who has an extremely low palate. She is ridden bitless or else she chomps and throws her head around and has a tantrum because it's painful.


----------



## wild_spot

I hate when people tout 'Any bit is only as harsh as the hands that are holding it'. All I hear is excuses for using bits that aren't comfortable, sometimes even when sitting passive in the mouth.

While it is true, it is only true TO A POINT. A bike chain bit is going to be harsh no matter WHO holds the reins. Even with no reins attached, it can cause damage!!!

I have nothing against curbs, leverage bits, gags, etc. - When used appropriately. I think a properly trained Vaquero horse or 'bridle horse' is a beautiful thing that I only WISH I could come close to. 

I still refuse to use any mouthpiece on my horses that isn't smooth. I bit according to what the horse find comfortable while the bit is passive in the mouth - I.e. I am not asking anything via reins. The response when I pick up the reins has nothing to do with the bit itself and everything to do with the training. I make my horses as comfortable as I can, and then I teach them to respond.

If you want the flexibility of a chain mouth bit, then go for a rubber bit with no wire center, or one of those leather bits they are making now. There are (RARE) horse who like the sensation of having the bit wrap around the whole lower jaw, which is what waterfords, chain bits, and the above mentioned bits do.


----------



## NdAppy

Who said that she was using a bike chain or that a bike chain wasn't harsh? No one that I saw. If you are wrapping the chain bit around the lower jaw while riding, you obviously need to reevaluate everything you are doing.


----------



## JustDressageIt

Ndappy, it does it on its own.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CJ82Sky

NdAppy said:


> Do you really, honestly think that Stacy Westfall just hopped on and rode tackless without training the horse with various bits and other equipment first? If so you are seriously delusional.
> 
> A chain bit can be used effectively _without_ causing pain. If that is what the horse is comfortable in, then why not ride in it? _ANY_ bit can and will cause pain if used incorrectly.


my point is that the horse when fully trained does NOT need harsh bits or accessories. i made no comments regarding HOW to train the horse. perhaps you should reread what i said before you attack.

i never said there was a bit that couldn't or would't cause pain. simply that bits with harsh mouthpieces were designed to work on pain rather than softer pressure and communication.

never once have i been rude or accusatory to anyone in here, simply stated my opinion. i find it interesting that there seems to be a need to turn this into an argument with insults being thrown, and sadly have lost respect for those who can not have a discussion without insults.


----------



## NdAppy

JDI, it does not wrap around, it conforms to the mouth by laying across the tongue. in order for it to "wrap around" you have to be physically pulling on it. 

CJ82sky, I wasn't attacking, but if that is how you took it so be it. I did read your posts, thanks for thinking otherwise. 

You two have it stuck in your heads that there is only one true way. sorry, doesn't work that way with horses or their training equipment. :roll:


----------



## CJ82Sky

one true way? where did i say that? if that was how i felt, then i wonder why i'd openly admit i ride some of my horses in leverage and gag bits?

your statement makes no sense.


----------



## CJ82Sky

however, i am now curious to hear what this one true way may really be! perhaps i don't need any bit at all for any of my horses ever! i mean how cool would that be?! i'm sure it would make barrels and cattle work and foxhunting and eventing a helluvalot more exciting


----------



## NdAppy

In the way that if it doesn't follow what you say then it is wrong. *shrugs* Seen it on a few different threads debating bits.


----------



## CJ82Sky

wild_spot said:


> I hate when people tout 'Any bit is only as harsh as the hands that are holding it'. All I hear is excuses for using bits that aren't comfortable, sometimes even when sitting passive in the mouth.
> 
> While it is true, it is only true TO A POINT. A bike chain bit is going to be harsh no matter WHO holds the reins. Even with no reins attached, it can cause damage!!!
> 
> I have nothing against curbs, leverage bits, gags, etc. - When used appropriately. I think a properly trained Vaquero horse or 'bridle horse' is a beautiful thing that I only WISH I could come close to.
> 
> I still refuse to use any mouthpiece on my horses that isn't smooth. I bit according to what the horse find comfortable while the bit is passive in the mouth - I.e. I am not asking anything via reins. The response when I pick up the reins has nothing to do with the bit itself and everything to do with the training. I make my horses as comfortable as I can, and then I teach them to respond.
> 
> If you want the flexibility of a chain mouth bit, then go for a rubber bit with no wire center, or one of those leather bits they are making now. There are (RARE) horse who like the sensation of having the bit wrap around the whole lower jaw, which is what waterfords, chain bits, and the above mentioned bits do.


mmmm agreed


----------



## gypsygirl

i can jump my horse over a small course bareback and bridleless - literally no tack on his body - he also loves his chain bit. he is the sort of horse who likes something small in his mouth and it lies so flat. he also likes to hold the bit a little. im also not talking about a bike chain, but a flat chain.


----------



## usandpets

NdAppy said:


> Do you really, honestly think that Stacy Westfall just hopped on and rode tackless without training the horse with various bits and other equipment first? If so you are seriously delusional.


 Not trying to argue, but it is possible to train a horse without using any bit. Our TWH is rode bitless from the beginning. The one and only time she ever had a bit in her mouth, I just wanted to see if she would accept it in her mouth. She mouthed it for a few seconds and quit so I took it back out. All I ever have used with her is a halter, either rope or nylon, and lead rope. She uses a bitless bridle too now. Granted she is not fully trained or ever will be, but she is rideable.


----------



## Katze

I still do not agree if the horse is exceptionally trained that he needs a harsh bit for "show", I do believe that if the "harsh" bit is what the horse likes after trying multiple bits and or other alternatives you should stick with it.

My very first instructor had a 16.3hh trakehner gelding, who did NOT respond at all to any bit. He was totally a leg,back,bum horse. You could haul on those reins until the cows came home and he would just keep going. Now idk if his mouth had been previously ruined or not I never thought to ask and honestly knew nothing about bits back then, I only knew light pressure was good pressure, and that she had trained him to respond to "body" commands and trained me too lol.

Now to all the professionals on this forum, is this a horse that you would bit severly if you did not know his background, or would you try alternative measures?


----------



## CJ82Sky

i always try alternative measures first, and similar to your trainer's horse, mine are also trained to respond to seat and leg rather than reins.


----------



## gypsygirl

just want to point out that for english riding with a bit you need to have contact for your horse to be correct and balanced. we use the bit and reins for a reason, not saying you should go haul off on your horse, but bits and reins arent evil. as i said before, one good thing about chain bits is they have so many pressure points that it distributes the pressure, unlike other bits that only have a couple pressure points that they feel strongly.


----------



## CJ82Sky

gypsygirl said:


> just want to point out that for english riding with a bit you need to have contact for your horse to be correct and balanced. we use the bit and reins for a reason, not saying you should go haul off on your horse, but bits and reins arent evil. as i said before, one good thing about chain bits is they have so many pressure points that it distributes the pressure, unlike other bits that only have a couple pressure points that they feel strongly.


since i ride western and do cattle work, i already know there's a huge difference in the use of reins and bits in the different seats. however my western horses were trained off seat and leg just as much as my english horses. also good english riding doesn't require a contact for the horse to be correct and balanced, actually the horse should be able to balance themselves and if you are using more than 1/2 - 1 pound of pressure on the reins, you are using too much.


----------



## gypsygirl

the length of the reins determines the length of the neck, the length of the neck determines the balance. so imo - yes- you need contact. im not saying you have to use more than 1lb of pressure, i agree with you there, but you do need contact.


----------



## MacabreMikolaj

The only time I have ever seen people use chain bits is because they can't stop the **** animals otherwise. I ONLY ever see it in barrel racing and gaming (where no rules apply), and every single one of those horses is HAULED on to make him stop coming home.

There's a reason why they're otherwise illegal in most stages of showing. If you can't control your horse in a basic curb by the twitch of the reins, then there's a reason he has a chain bit in. At SOME point, you are going to be using that bit in a way that inflicts pain unless he performs without use of the reins whatsoever and if that is the case, I am truly curious as to what purpose a chain on his tongue serves.

And as far as "my horse likes it", I am baffled as to why ANYBODY would just choose to put a chain in their horses mouth without some sort of problem sparking the idea. There are so many bits available, why would THAT be your first choice? 

I understand the comment about "a bit is only as harsh as" but I have to agree with the against chains crowd with this one. The entire purpose of a big curb or a big spade type bit is to never use your reins and communicate pure refinement. I don't understand how that can be done with a chain bit, as the flexibility of it makes any sort of refined command almost impossible, like trying to do a finely tuned reining pattern in a snaffle bit. With a mouth piece that severe, if you've EVER put pressure on those reins, you've inflicted pain on your horse.

I have trouble believing nobody promoting chain bits has ever had to pick the reins up and apply pressure. I suppose much like half the people riding in curbs, it's difficult to believe that most people who are not professional trainers are using them PROPERLY and so the entire "it doesn't cause pain" argument is moot.

And I'm sorry, I do NOT believe for even a second you can inflict half as much damage or pain with a smooth snaffle as you can a twisted or chain mouth piece curb bit. It's just logic - pull for pull, or massive leverage pull. Yes you can hurt a horse with a snaffle, but I think people are grasping at straws to imply a snaffle can cause JUST as much pain as a leverage bit. There's a reason why people move to harsher bits, because it doesn't matter who's hands it in there ARE harsher bits then others on the scale.


----------



## CJ82Sky

*applause*


----------



## onetoomany

MacabreMikolaj said:


> The only time I have ever seen people use chain bits is because they can't stop the **** animals otherwise. I ONLY ever see it in barrel racing and gaming (where no rules apply), and every single one of those horses is HAULED on to make him stop coming home.


Just a bit of an add in- chain bits are very popular with ropers. I haven't seen this type of bit much on the gamers and barrel racers in my area.


----------



## MacabreMikolaj

Roping falls into the same category of basically needing to reduce your horse to a halt in a very short amount of time from a full tilt gallop. I'm sorry, chain bits say to me "I can't do this without inflicting pain." If people rode in chains bits like they do in curbs (ie. reining), I don't know that I'd have such a problem but the same issue is that they don't. The FAR better chunk of people riding in chain curb bits are doing so because they didn't bother putting proper breaks on their horse. They don't know HOW to stop from a full tilt run.

If I could watch a rider do a barrel patter, or rope with a chain bit and reins that never applied pressure, I would reserve judgement. Unfortunately, I have yet to see such a thing and will continue to be against chain bits if for NO other purpose other then people completely misunderstand them and 90% of them are used strictly as a quick fix training technique because people can't be bothered to teach whoa.

There are SO many bits out there with the same general shape and design, I have a lot of difficulty believing horses actually LIKE them and aren't just cowed into behaving and giving the illusion of behaving better. If your horse is fighting EVERY other bit you put in it's mouth, it's not a bit problem, it's a training problem. I've had horses prefer certain bits over others, but that certainly didn't mean I had ANY less control.


----------



## gypsygirl

^^have you ever personally used a chain bit ?


----------



## MacabreMikolaj

No, because I have yet to own a horse that couldn't be ridden entirely from a snaffle. If they DO graduate, it will be to a normal curb. I cannot even fathom what train of thought I'd be thinking to slap a chain bit on the average horse. And I certainly wouldn't use it to fix a problem. 

The entire structure of the device has confusing cues at best, and you will never get the same finesse you could out of a high ported curb that only requires a delicate jiggle of the reins to communicate. Again, the day I actually SEE someone able to perform a high maneuver reining pattern in a chain bit, maybe I will reserve my judgement but until then, it's a barrel racing torture device and quick fix as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## bubba13

For everyone saying that chain bits are inherently cruel/harsh/painful....how and why? Explain the pain and abuse mechanism to me.


----------



## wild_spot

I wouldn't (and don't think I did) say they are inherently painful - as in causing pain just sitting passive in the mouth. 

However, with contact (including brief contact for cues to stop/turn) that changes. The bumps in the chain create a very uneven surface. The bars are actually quite sharp sections of bone covered by a thin layer of gum. Any pressure on the bars from a smooth surface can cause discomfort, but pressure from a bumpy surface will cause pressure points that cause pain. Any prolonged contact with less than perfect hands, or a less than still horses head, or contact to turn, is going to drag these bumps sideways over the bars. Ouch!

Add to that the fact that the chain bit puts pressure fairly evenly (as a whole, not talking about pressure points from bps) across the tongue, bars, and lips, not relieving pressure anywhere like most other, more rigid bits. 

Sure sounds painful to me! I don't think I used the word abuse, though. I don't need to label it abuse to know I don't want to cause my horse pain.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## faye

Also point out that narrower bits put greater pressure on a smaller area. thicker bits distribute the pressure more
Think of it this way, if a 60kg woman stood on your foot when she was wearing flat shoes it would hurt a hell of alot less than if she stood on your foot with stilleto heels. thats pre - gcse physics for you


----------



## gypsygirl

if youre going to use that point, it also is way more passive and soft in the mouth when you arent pulling then a solid bit because it has so many pressure points.


----------



## faye

Gypsygirl, I dont see that, a Chain bit by its very nature cannot sit passivly. You dont have to be pulling on a bit to have pressure on a bit. Also by its nature a horse will want to move the chain bit over its tounge, causing pinching and pressure.

Yes a chain bit has alot of very very small pressure points so essentialy it is akin to haveing 10 stilletos on your foot instead of a wedge heel. There is NO relief from a chain bit.

Heck I dont even like Waterford bits but I'd far rather use one of those then use a chain bit.


----------



## bubba13

First, a chain bit will not "grate" against any part of the mouth until the rein is tugged significantly sideways (I am presuming a curb, not a snaffle, here). It will first rotate, then tighten.

Next, the bars of a horse are harder to access with harsh pressure than most people realize. Most bits, when pulled on a horse with a natural headset and with the rider's hands at a natural level, will come straight back into the corners of the mouth rather than dig into the bars. Experiment some time--place your finger between the bars and the mouthpiece and pull back on the reins.

Also, a well-made chain bit is not particularly prone to pinching. 

This is a well-made, well-balanced, well-finished bit:










And this is not (even minus the ghastly shanks, that's a pinchy mouthpiece):










Because the mouthpiece on a good chain bit is extremely flexible, you have to be pulling back very hard to exert painful pressure in any one area. Otherwise the bit just rolls and moves around, and the horse can adjust his tongue and mouth to make it more comfortable.

I've had some horses work very well in chain bits (without hauling on the face!). The large degree of movement they have allows for ease of subtlety of cues on a well-broke horse.


----------



## wild_spot

First, I don't think I mentioned 'grating' anywhere, and didn't notice Faye mention it either?

I apologize, I wasn't talking strictly curb or snaffle here. But either cheek has problems - the sideways movement of a snaffle, or the jaw-wrapping effect of a curb. 

A bit will only ride back into the corners of the lips if either tbd horses head or the riders hands are significantly higher than 'normal' headcarriage. Especially on a curb - the tightening on the curb chain pulls the bit down onto the bars, and keeps the bit still. If the bit does move enough up into the corners of the lips, it will usually hit the teeth behind the section of bar it sits on. When this happens even with smooth bits the lips are often pinched between bit and tooth. However as I said this happens almost exclusively in snaffles on horses who raise their heads as an evasion. It is very hard to make a well adjusted curb work off the corners of the lips as opposed to the bars. 

I would never use a chain bit. If I had a horse who liked the feel of a completely flexible mouthpiece I would use a rubber Mullen or a leather mouthpiece. 

All power to you if you have had horses go well in them. 

I just wouldn't take the risk, even on a supremely broke horse, that something would go wrong and I would have to actually pick up on the reins. Causing that amount of pain in the mouth is not something I will ever advocate or be comfortable with.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MacabreMikolaj

^ Exactly.

bubba13, the first bit you posted is one thing. But we ALL know that 90% of people in chain bits are using sharp pinchy gag type bits. I would ALMOST listen to the chain bit argument if people like you would explain them more often, but I find it ludicrous to even pretend that the vast majority of people riding in chain bits don't have a friggin CLUE what they're doing.

Unfortunately, the people riding in chain bits shouldn't be, and the people who CAN be riding in chain bits WON'T. That's the problem I have with them. They ARE an instrument of torture and abuse in 90% of the hands holding the reins of them. And therefore, I would never in a million years advocate their use to people, especially people who begin with "can't control him in a snaffle..."


----------



## bubba13

90% of the people riding horses at all probably shouldn't be, in that case! Hardly anyone understands the equipment (bit or anything else) they use well enough to utilize it effectively and humanely.


----------



## Chiilaa

I don't like chain bits, fortunately in a very dressage/show jumping area I am yet to see one on a horse. 

I do have a genuine question though, just to further my knowledge, since I haven't had a chance to see one in action.

How does the bit not accidently cue the horse? It is so mobile, surely you have to ask harder and stronger than a solid mouth piece?


----------



## smrobs

MacabreMikolaj said:


> Unfortunately, the people riding in chain bits shouldn't be, and the people who CAN be riding in chain bits WON'T. That's the problem I have with them.


Exactly MM. That's my biggest thing too. I don't use one, I likely never will simply because I don't like how they feel. I like for my horses to be able to pick the bit up and carry it themselves if they want to, and some of them do. That can't be done in a chain.


----------



## jumperdlmp

compared to that pic of the bit id say if you r horse went to your aids well it wouldn't need it. second just the weight of the reins let alone the actual bit itself must be putting pressure all over the horses mouth


----------



## pennylove12

CJ82Sky said:


> i will not put any bit in my horse's mouth that works on pain rather than communication.
> 
> i used a double twisted wire once because the horse was very hard mouthed and i wanted to see if he had nerve damage so i longed him in it. he proceeded to lean just like in a snaffle and we were able to confirm he had nerve damage from the severity of the bits he was ridden in on the track.
> 
> i have had horses ridden in front of me in a chain bit and switched them to a much more milder bit and immediately got better results.
> 
> i do not believe in training through pain. i believe in training and riding through understanding, respect, and communication. i make sure that all my horses - even the ones that go xc in a pelham or gag (yes i do believe in stronger bits) - can flat in a simple snaffle, be it a mullen, single jointed, or double jointed. i also do NOT EVER believe in any bit that causes pain in the mouth and will ONLY use smooth mouthed bits. the harshest mouthpiece i will ever use is a slow twist and that is rare (like once in YEARS). even my very strong 1800lb clyde cross goes in a bean link snaffle.
> 
> any horse that ever comes to me in any wire or chain bit is immediately put in a much more mild bit and retrained from the basics on up to accept rather than run from the bit. i've yet to find a horse (and i've gotten many through the rescue here that i've worked with that have all kinds of issues) that have ever preferred a chain or wire bit to a simple snaffle. i've found chain and wire (and any bits that work on pain) are a quick fix and coverup for improper training. and i've been riding for over 3 decades....


this is to cj82sky apparently over 3 decades you haven't learned a lot because a lot of high ranked trainers love chain bits it depends on the shanks, hands of the rider, and how high the bit is in the mouth. For you to put chain bits and twisted wire bits in the same sentence shows you don't know a lot because they are incomparable they aren't even close. chain bits aren't based on pain if you use them right so you must be using them wrong and you cant judge a bit you barley have used. I'm not trying to bash you but the comment you made is wrong and can change a lot of peoples opinions and also since that horse is an ex race horse i will bet money if it did ant racing it knows how to accept a bit and how to work with it. I am thinking about using a chain bit on my horse her name is docs dazzling gem look her up you might know her mom if you are really into horses, my horse has a very soft mouth i have put her in a snaffle but i am now running her faster she knows the basics but i still need a little step up and that's what a chain bit is if u use it right if you don't believe me look it up and see how many trainers have used them and like them there are haters out there but like Taylor Swift says the haters gonna hate and a lot of them are wrong about what they says so do your homework before you change a lot of peoples thoughts on unsupported facts that aren't true because why you are hating these chain bits are doing miracles for other people.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

You do realize this thread is four years old, right? And the person you are directing your answer toward hasn't been on the forum in quite a while. Just sayin'...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Paintedponies1992

Alright, I haven't read every post but I'd like to put my two cents into this. I do believe that any bit can be harsh if the hand holding the reins is harsh or any tool/training aid for that matter. I used to ride a quarter pony years back who was ridden in a simple snaffle, smooth mouth piece. But if you rode with hard/harsh hands he would pull the reins from your hands and do his own thing. But if someone with light/soft hands was riding him he was a dream to ride.


----------



## Paintedponies1992

> You do realize this thread is four years old, right? And the person you are directing your answer toward hasn't been on the forum in quite a while. Just sayin'...


well then don't I look foolish :|


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

PaintedPonies92 said:


> well then don't I look foolish :|


That wasn't directed at you, hon. Lol. It was directed at the (new?) member who dredged up this old thread. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Paintedponies1992

Okay


----------



## Remali

Interesting thread... even if it is older.

But, for what its worth... any trainer who has to use a chain bit, is no trainer in my book, calling oneself a trainer does not mean you know what you are doing, I know of way too many abusive "high ranked" trainers out there. No one needs to use anything as harsh as a chain bit, and if you don't think that they aren't painful try putting one in your mouth. It amazes me what some people will put in a horse's mouth.


----------



## jaydee

Actually nothing wrong with bringing an old thread back to life if its just for useful interesting discussion - obviously not likely to be worth doing if you want to give advice to an OP from several years ago who needed it there and then


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

jaydee said:


> Actually nothing wrong with bringing an old thread back to life if its just for useful interesting discussion - obviously not likely to be worth doing if you want to give advice to an OP from several years ago who needed it there and then


Just found it odd that the person who revived the thread did so simply to refute/argue with someone who hasn't been on in several months. That's all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jaydee

I think sometimes people just don't notice the date - especially if a link comes up at the bottom of the 'page' you're on because its got a similar theme


----------



## Fort fireman

I like the twist it took early on about spade bits and how " harsh " they are by someone that has NOOOOOOO clue what they are talking about. No clue how long it takes to get a horse( and rider) ready for one. :shock:


----------

