# Help identifing mares color



## outtathisworld (Sep 4, 2016)

Hello!!!
I need help identifying my mares color. Fiametta is a year and a half old and her registration papers from the breeder have her as black. Her first shed she shed to a chocolate color then she shed out a different color this spring, so I would like to change her papers. 
One of the photos may show her as having a red highlight, but she doesn't when you are looking at her she has more of a golden highlight.
The photo with the halter was taken right after her spring shed , the others were yesterday.
I would like to know what to put down on the correction papers.
(yes she is a little pudgy but we have to put weight on before our cold winters)
Thank you!!!


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## BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 (Apr 11, 2016)

The closest thing I could figure is seal brown, but I could be wrong. At the same time, she doesn't have the characteristic tan muzzle I have always seen, so maybe not. She could just be brown too, or dark bay.

She looks a lot like this IMO, and this is suppose to be a dark brown/dark bay horse









Either way, she is a beautiful filly! What's her name?


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## SeaBreezy20 (Aug 7, 2016)

She looks like a smoky black to me, but I'll wait for the color experts to weigh in ^^


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

1) what are her parent's colors?
2) she COULD be a very sunburnt black. Black can be VERY difficult to keep black, particularly on pasture kept horses except in very rare non-fading black horses. Otherwise, most black horses need special care to be kept a true black during the summer if you goal is to show and have a blue black horse. 
3) if either one of her parents carried the cream gene- she could be a smokey black or brown. 
4) color testing is your easiest and best option in her case. Unless her parent couldn't genetically have a black foal, and in that case I could tell you her options. But she could go either way just looking at her.


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## outtathisworld (Sep 4, 2016)

Her Name is Fiametta.


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## outtathisworld (Sep 4, 2016)

Dehda01 said:


> 1) what are her parent's colors?
> 2) she COULD be a very sunburnt black. Black can be VERY difficult to keep black, particularly on pasture kept horses except in very rare non-fading black horses. Otherwise, most black horses need special care to be kept a true black during the summer if you goal is to show and have a blue black horse.
> 3) if either one of her parents carried the cream gene- she could be a smokey black or brown.
> 4) color testing is your easiest and best option in her case. Unless her parent couldn't genetically have a black foal, and in that case I could tell you her options. But she could go either way just looking at her.


I added a picture of her parents. Her mother is standing on left her dad on the right (buck skin).
The second is her and her mother right after she was born.


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## BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 (Apr 11, 2016)

outtathisworld said:


> Her Name is Fiametta.


Oh yeah, you said that before. Lol, sorry, my brain died for a few seconds. :rofl:

From that second picture she looks smoky black, but I'm not an expert by any means so could be totally wrong.


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## avrehm (Sep 4, 2016)

shes a Dark bay


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

A vote for smoky black here. I googled it and there are a lot of smoky blacks with her shimmery gold-undertones dark color. I have a dark bay (brown) and although she is nearly black in places and a little sunburnt over her back at the moment she doesn't look the same as your pretty mare. Her light tones are much redder (bay colored), for one thing.


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

With her site being a buckskin, there is a 50% chance he threw his cream gene. So she could be a smokey black or smokey brown. I recommend you color test her. I bet you she is is smokey black.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Smoky black or sunburnt black. If you doubt that she is black, color test her for agouti (costs $25 to test some hair roots for agouti at either animal genetics or UC Davis). If she comes back as "aa" test results, she is black. If she comes back as "Aa" or "AA", she is bay/brown. 

Her dam appears to be bay with countershading, her sire is buckskin. With that cross, there was a chance for both black and smoky black. Just like there was probably a chance of chestnut and palomino if neither were homozygous black. 

If you test for agouti and she has none, you can then test for cream to know if she is just black or smoky black. But by looking at her foal picture, that is a classic black foal coat color so her registered color is likely to be correct.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I also say fading black or smokey black. I would say just black but the halter pic being right after she shed out wouldn't explain the lightness (she wouldn't have faded yet) so why I'm throwing in the smokey.

I would test her for cream (black vs smokey black) and as said if you don't think she's black but bay/brown test agouti, but I wouldn't bother with that personally.


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## outtathisworld (Sep 4, 2016)

Thank you everyone for your help! 
I was only concerned that her registration was not correct. The main suggestion seems to be smokey black or bleached black, but Yogiwick pointed out she shouldn't have been faded after a shed.
So I can just leave her papers then. The breeder had said they weren't sure she may lighten up or darken so we would have to correct the registration.
Thanks again!


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

If she is a smokey black, she should have her papers corrected. Particularly if you ever plan to sell her or breed her. If you were to breed her to a non-cream stallion... But she has the cram gene and threw it.... But her registration papers say she technically can't... It is going to hold up getting the foal registered while you get her tested and then change her papers.... Just test her, if she is a qh or paint, do a 5 panel while you are at it and know once and for all. Do black/red, agouti factor, cream. Whatever genetic tests are recommended for her breed.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Dehda01 said:


> If she is a smokey black, she should have her papers corrected. Particularly if you ever plan to sell her or breed her. If you were to breed her to a non-cream stallion... But she has the cram gene and threw it.... But her registration papers say she technically can't... It is going to hold up getting the foal registered while you get her tested and then change her papers....


Actually, you will have a hard time finding an association with smoky black as a color option. Smoky blacks are typically just registered as black with most of them looking just like a normal black, both AQHA and APHA do not have smoky black as an option. And AQHA frequently registers a horse as a color you would not expect to get based upon the registered colors of the parents because of how their registration system works (not including all color possibilities) which is why a horse registered as a red dun (but is actually a dunalino) could produce a cremello when crossed with a black (actually smoky black but registered as black).


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

I thought they fixed that once they added perlino and cremello. They have to! That is ridiculous!


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

The Arabian registry won't register a foal if it is a color that is not genetically possivle without a genetic test plus the DNA test to the parents to back it up.

That is so backwards.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Dehda01 said:


> I thought they fixed that once they added perlino and cremello. They have to! That is ridiculous!


Nope, that is the current setup as I just looked up the registration forms online for both AQHA and APHA. All horses who have the combination of dun or cream or roan or all 3 are still unable to be registered as their color combination. APHA does have the smoky cream option (homozgous cream on black) as well as some champaign color choices but AQHA is way behind on possible registered colors. Guess they find color genetics a tad confusing and want to limit the options. 

Funny thing is, there is a registered purebred arabian mare who is registered as bay, both sire and dam were registered as black. As it is genetically impossible to get a bay foal out of two blacks, they still managed to register a foal as a color that is genetically impossible to get based on the parents' registered color. So either the bay mare wasn't bay but a fading black or one of her parents wasn't really black.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

Being that she definitely isn't red then her options would be black, bay, buckskin or smokey black. Her foal picture makes me say black but her shedding light would make it questionable. For the most part, she looks black to me. I personally wouldn't change her papers unless I knew for sure, as in, having her tested.

This is my black mare (aa) with no cream gene. Right now she is even lighter than in any of these photos.


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

@SunnyDraco- I have had client had to amend registrations like that. They wouldn't let them register a bay out of two blacks without DNA testing... Or greys parents that hadn't had their papers changed to reflect their color having a grey goal. Or a cream (palomino) out of a "chestnut" and a bay. Guess maybe it is who is processing the test and how close they are paying attention and if they know their genetics? 

I was very surprised how long it took them to drag their feet on that falsely registered tobiano though.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Dehda01 said:


> @SunnyDraco- I have had client had to amend registrations like that. They wouldn't let them register a bay out of two blacks without DNA testing... Or greys parents that hadn't had their papers changed to reflect their color having a grey goal. Or a cream (palomino) out of a "chestnut" and a bay. Guess maybe it is who is processing the test and how close they are paying attention and if they know their genetics?
> 
> I was very surprised how long it took them to drag their feet on that falsely registered tobiano though.


It actually isn't hard to change/update a color with AHA. My mom really wanted a black foal and when she bred a bay mare to a homozygous black stallion, the baby was born a dark seal bay/brown. She still registered her as black as a foal. A few years later with myself and my sisters nagging my mom about how the filly was not black at all, my mom changed her half Arab registration to black bay (even though technically she was seal brown, almost black except for those light mealy soft spots). My uncle owns a 3/4 sister born the same year as the filly who my mom registered as the wrong color. The 3/4 sister (dams of the foals were half sisters bred to the same stallion) was born midnight black, my uncle was told that his filly was going to be grey just like the mother (who had also been born midnight black before going grey) but he still registered her as black. Her registration papers even today at 20 years old say that she is black even though in person she has a nearly white coat color


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

It isn't hard, just a PIA. Better to do it correctly the first time around. They didn't give me some trouble doing black bay with a half Arab 10 years ago, needed to give pictures. Don't remember why.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Dehda01 said:


> It isn't hard, just a PIA. Better to do it correctly the first time around. They didn't give me some trouble doing black bay with a half Arab 10 years ago, needed to give pictures. Don't remember why.


I know that currently you need to send in pictures for half Arab registrations if you are trying to register a half Arab as tobiano. My older sister also had to send in pictures of her gelding's leg so they would include a partial stocking as the marking on that leg (they wanted to mark it as a sock even though the other half of the sock was to the knee). After they got pictures, then they made the marking description accurate. Sometimes they need a picture to verify with their eyes.


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

He had ermine spots and high white. Maybe that was why. I knew you needed it for pinto markings but was surprised for him.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

"I personally wouldn't change her papers unless I knew for sure, as in, having her tested."

Same here, if I cared enough to change I would want to be absolutely positive and her color is too tricky to go off phenotype and be 100% sure imo.

She reminds me sooo much of a seal brown gelding I work with- during the summer when he sunbleaches to a buckskin lol (and the point I made earlier, he sheds out to a jet black with cinnamon points).


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

My quarter mare is reg as buckskin , but appears dun to me. The mare was color tested through AQHA and carries the creme gene through the stallion. I was told when I purchased her she was a dunskin. I contacted the breeder and the mare is a sooty buckskin.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

stevenson said:


> My quarter mare is reg as buckskin , but appears dun to me. The mare was color tested through AQHA and carries the creme gene through the stallion. I was told when I purchased her she was a dunskin. I contacted the breeder and the mare is a sooty buckskin.


I'm a little confused, the color test came back buckskin (so proven genetically buckskin) and that just got messed up/forgotten as she changed hands?

Honestly I see buckskin absolutely, no way do I see anything even hinting at dun. Unless that's the wrong pic? lol


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

I had posted what I found somewhere here about AQHA color registration and how they handle multiple modifiers. They register the first and note the second and/or third in the comments on the papers. So if you had a Dunskin that carried the roan gene they would register dun with the comment section noting this horse also carries the cream and roan gene. I am not sure of the hierarchy for choosing the base but they do note it.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

she is the dark horse. lol. she has what appears to be a line on her back. 
I just never called these dark horses buckskin . The people that owned her prior to me called her a dunskin. The stripe on her back must be counter shading, when the sun hits her you can see more of the lighter color in her coat.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

stevenson said:


> she is the dark horse. lol. she has what appears to be a line on her back.
> *I just never called these dark horses buckskin .* The people that owned her prior to me called her a dunskin. The stripe on her back must be counter shading, when the sun hits her you can see more of the lighter color in her coat.


Must just be a misleading terminology thing  _Remember, a dun is NOT a dark horse!_ So that's pretty confusing.

Dun not only produces the dorsal but also dilutes the color to a flat even tone. A dun horse will never have that multi colored gold/black. That is very typical buckskin (+ sooty) coloring.

Countershading dorsals can be misleading which is why you need to look at the whole picture instead of just the dorsal (and sometimes still tricky like bay vs bay dun on a nice red horse!)

She is clearly not dun when you think about it (compare to other duns). For example here is a dunskin- a bay horse with cream and dun (double dilution genes)










Here is your mare:


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

Dark or "Black" Bay. 

My horse is a very similar color.









I don't disagree with some of the color descriptions, but as far as registry goes Bay. The tip that she is Bay and not Black is the points stay black while the rest of the coat lightens.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

jgnmoose said:


> Dark or "Black" Bay.
> 
> My horse is a very similar color.
> 
> ...


True but a fading black can look very similar (though they will shed out a true black) or an unhealthy black horse.

And a bay/brown based horse with a dilution gene can mimic that color like stevenson's mare.

The OPs mare is obviously not a black that has not faded, I don't think anyone is confused about that or what a jet black horse looks like.


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

Yogiwick said:


> True but a fading black can look very similar (though they will shed out a true black) or an unhealthy black horse.
> 
> And a bay/brown based horse with a dilution gene can mimic that color like stevenson's mare.
> 
> The OPs mare is obviously not a black that has not faded, I don't think anyone is confused about that or what a jet black horse looks like.


My horse has dapples all over her body as well as a dark shadow on her back. Even though she lightens quite a bit in the summer her points stay jet black, except for tips of her mane lightened by the sun. I don't have a winter picture of her, but she'll turn a deep dark chocolate brown by January. The true black concentrated to her points make her a Bay, not the coat color, was my point. 

Beautiful horse no matter what you call her though (OP).


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

OP .. I would have her color tested before correcting any papers.
I did not think my mare was buckskin, but she was genetic tested and is a sooty buckskin . 
Yogi .. I am no color guru. On my mare Her sire was grulla and her dam was I think a sorrel ? not sure on that fact. I just know from her papers she is buckskin was dna'd had the color test done, and the 5 panel. She has thrown one cremello colt . I have had red duns, yellow dun (looked pali) but had dorsal stripes and leg barring .


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

jgnmoose said:


> My horse has dapples all over her body as well as a dark shadow on her back. Even though she lightens quite a bit in the summer her points stay jet black, except for tips of her mane lightened by the sun. I don't have a winter picture of her, but she'll turn a deep dark chocolate brown by January. The true black concentrated to her points make her a Bay, not the coat color, was my point.
> 
> Beautiful horse no matter what you call her though (OP).


I get what you're saying and agree that a bay/brown BASED horse will ALWAYS follow those rules. But any black horse that is not showing true black for whatever reason would also follow those rules (not bay). And any dilution on bay/brown would also follow those rules (not bay).

For example fading black, smokey black, buckskin, dun, grullo, etc, are all "a non black coat color with dark points" but are not bay (and several of those are not even bay based).

I just think it's inaccurate to say a horse is bay because she has black points, there is SO much more to it then that and it's very "reverse" I feel. (All bays have black points but not all horses with black points are bay).

I would be very surprised if the OPs horse was genetically bay and nothing more.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

stevenson said:


> OP .. I would have her color tested before correcting any papers.
> I did not think my mare was buckskin, but she was genetic tested and is a sooty buckskin .
> Yogi .. I am no color guru. On my mare Her sire was grulla and her dam was I think a sorrel ? not sure on that fact. I just know from her papers she is buckskin was dna'd had the color test done, and the 5 panel. She has thrown one cremello colt . I have had red duns, yellow dun (looked pali) but had dorsal stripes and leg barring .


See? Tricky tricky.... A grulla and a sorrel could NOT produce a buckskin so something is out of place there (the cream gene needs to come from somewhere, though it could possibly be hiding on the grulla).

Phenotype and genotype can definitely be different and sometimes hard to distinguish. Or the people who say my horse was "this color" then turned "that entirely different color" I find that very confusing as they are simply describing the horse but to me it sounds like a statement of genetic color.

(I love your mare's color )


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

Yogi .. yes the creme that my mare carries is from the grulla sire. Color genetics get so complicated . lol. When the light hits my mare she is full of dark dapples over the buckskin tan color.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

stevenson said:


> Yogi .. yes the creme that my mare carries is from the grulla sire. Color genetics get so complicated . lol. When the light hits my mare she is full of dark dapples over the buckskin tan color.


Even trickier is that grulla is female, grullo is male. The grullo sire would actually be a smoky grullo, meaning that he carries both types of dilutes. Unless he really is a buckskin and is simply misidentified because that happens as well.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

SunnyDraco said:


> Even trickier is that grulla is female, grullo is male. The grullo sire would actually be a smoky grullo, meaning that he carries both types of dilutes. Unless he really is a buckskin and is simply misidentified because that happens as well.


I always wondered what the difference was!! I typed grullo then changed it as I wasn't sure which was "correct". Now I see it's simply grammatical!


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