# Paying for services



## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Haven't we used and abused this topic every time someone has an issue, they are told to get a trainer. And the saga starts.

I'd like to see people have to pass a test to be a parent - but it isn't going to happen.

Let it go.


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## Southern (Apr 24, 2011)

Marecare said:


> In our daily lives all of us are faced with the choices and the decisions of how to provide for our needs.
> 
> If we don't know how to fix our lawn mower or washing machine we may consult the Internet for advice or we may just call a qualified person to repair the problem.
> 
> ...


I am 14, and am training my second horse. . . I don't have a proff. trainer. . .


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## Lonannuniel (Jun 13, 2008)

It's the young, the over confident, the impatient and the un-educated that think they are able to train a 1000 lb + animal with no help or previous knowledge. that's my theory.


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## Southern (Apr 24, 2011)

Lonannuniel said:


> It's the young, the over confident, the impatient and the un-educated that think they are able to train a 1000 lb + animal with no help or previous knowledge. that's my theory.


I have trained a gelding before and had no problems. So I think it is really a matter of how knowledged(sp?) they are .


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## christabelle (Feb 13, 2011)

If this line of thinking were correct, we would still be in loincloths. There is nothin wrong with attempting to do it yourself... There is a good chance you will be successful, for in fact I am sure the first horseman was a complete novice 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Southern (Apr 24, 2011)

christabelle said:


> If this line of thinking were correct, we would still be in loincloths. There is nothin wrong with attempting to do it yourself... There is a good chance you will be successful, for in fact I am sure the first horseman was a complete novice
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Haha , oh yes  They also probably got bucked off a fair amount too !


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## Lonannuniel (Jun 13, 2008)

Southern said:


> I have trained a gelding before and had no problems. So I think it is really a matter of how knowledged(sp?) they are .


good to know? I'm glad you are able to train horses; but a good amount of people don't have that knowledge before they take on a horse.


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## Southern (Apr 24, 2011)

Lonannuniel said:


> good to know? I'm glad you are able to train horses; but a good amount of people don't have that knowledge before they take on a horse.


I have to agree. A lot of good horses go to slaughter because their owners say their "useless" just because the owner doesn't know.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

First there are people that probably can't afford to hire someone. Secondly, just because you hire someone doesn't guarantee anything (unfortunately). There are way too many people that say they are professional trainers when they haven't got the skills or temperament to teach effectively. The auction yards are full of horses that go to people like that. 

I think that professionals should come up with a better way to deliver service so that it is affordable and the skills are transferable. But that is not what is out there. Yes there are a few good people but let's face it, it is really hard to make a good income training horses - most people cannot do it. So what are we left with people that have facilities but not necessarily the skills. So my question is what should all the qualified professionals do to raise their profession up and help the average person make a good decision. Do you know how many times I have helped people who now have serious problems because of a professional they hired - plenty of times - too many to count.


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## coffeeaddict (Jun 18, 2010)

> I think that professionals should come up with a better way to deliver service so that it is affordable and the skills are transferable.


It's not a professional trainer's job to make sure everyone can afford their services. They should charge according to what their time is worth. If some people can't afford that, then so be it. 

The guy who fixes your car doesn't make his prices based on what everyone can afford, he charges based on what his time is worth, and what he needs to pay his own bills, employees etc. 

When it comes to the skills being transferable that depends on the owner and how well they follow a program, or don't follow it. In the end, a trainer can't make someone maintain the training and continue to practice. Unfortunately. 

Not saying anything of this to be argumentative, just replying with my view.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

mls said:


> Haven't we used and abused this topic every time someone has an issue, they are told to get a trainer. And the saga starts.
> 
> I'd like to see people have to pass a test to be a parent - but it isn't going to happen.
> 
> Let it go.



I don't know about you but I am just getting started on the topic.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

TheLovedOne said:


> First there are people that probably can't afford to hire someone. Secondly, just because you hire someone doesn't guarantee anything (unfortunately). There are way too many people that say they are professional trainers when they haven't got the skills or temperament to teach effectively. The auction yards are full of horses that go to people like that.
> 
> I think that professionals should come up with a better way to deliver service so that it is affordable and the skills are transferable. But that is not what is out there. Yes there are a few good people but let's face it, it is really hard to make a good income training horses - most people cannot do it. So what are we left with people that have facilities but not necessarily the skills. So my question is what should all the qualified professionals do to raise their profession up and help the average person make a good decision. Do you know how many times I have helped people who now have serious problems because of a professional they hired - plenty of times - too many to count.



If you buy and own a Ferrari you should be able to afford the tune ups.

There are people that acquire horses and don't have the money to pay for a Vet,buy de-wormer,or provide proper fencing,or even transport the horse to a different location.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

coffeeaddict said:


> It's not a professional trainer's job to make sure everyone can afford their services. They should charge according to what their time is worth. If some people can't afford that, then so be it.
> 
> The guy who fixes your car doesn't make his prices based on what everyone can afford, he charges based on what his time is worth, and what he needs to pay his own bills, employees etc.
> 
> When it comes to the skills being transferable that depends on the owner and how well they follow a program, or don't follow it. In the end, a trainer can't make someone maintain the training and continue to practice. Unfortunately.


First of all, I think that you know little about developing a business. Second of all, I doubt that you are a professional. I'm not saying this to be nasty but I am saying this to make a point about two things.

Developing a business does require the business owner to understand what the value or perceived value is for the product or service provided. It does require that the business owner understand the market and therefore does not offer services that people can't afford or don't value. Not understanding this will result in business failure. 

Secondly, being a professional requires that you are part of an association that requires you to behave appropriately and that you have minimum skills. I do indeed think that this is a big problem and it is the problem of the business owner in this case the professional horse trainer.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

Marecare said:


> If you buy and own a Ferrari you should be able to afford the tune ups.


I think that someone who buys a horse Ferrari doesn't mean that they know how to pick a good professional. I know several people like this and the problems they are left with... The thing about servicing a Ferrari is that you must have it serviced by a licensed mechanic and if it's still under warranty then it'll probably have to be at a particular location. I think that's the difference in general when comparing to other professions or industries. That is one of the biggest problems.



Marecare said:


> There are people that acquire horses and don't have the money to pay for a Vet,buy de-wormer,or provide proper fencing,or even transport the horse to a different location.


I know and that is terrible! Please stop breeding horses! They should cost a lot of money.


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## coffeeaddict (Jun 18, 2010)

> First of all, I think that you know little about developing a business. Second of all, I doubt that you are a professional. I'm not saying this to be nasty but I am saying this to make a point about two things.


I've run a successful dog training company for the last 11 years. I'm a professional dog trainer. I do think I know a little bit about how to develop a business. Please don't assume.

I do not price my services based on what everyone can afford, I price them based on what my time is worth and what I need to cover my own costs. This hasn't resulted in a business failure for me.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Marecare said:


> I really don't understand....Please explain this to me.


This will probably be the most unusual post I have made in a while and a little George Bush-eske. My thoughts:

Some people don't even know what they don't know.

If you KNOW what you don't know (i.e. what you are yet to learn) you can address your lack of knowledge by setting out to learn. 

Ignorance is bliss....until you have an unruly two year old on your hands.

In the words of Dubya himself:

"We know there are known knowns: there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns: that is to say we know there are things we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns — the ones we don't know we don't know." 

Anyway, made sense in my head :lol:


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

coffeeaddict said:


> I've run a successful dog training company for the last 11 years. I'm a professional dog trainer. I do think I know a little bit about how to develop a business. Please don't assume.
> 
> I do not price my services based on what everyone can afford, I price them based on what my time is worth and what I need to cover my own costs. This hasn't resulted in a business failure for me.


To be honest, my cousin is also a dog trainer and her husband supports her. It is not a good business strategy to base your fees on your costs alone. My prediction is that your business will never grow but that you will be able to cover your costs. Your costs are low and so are your fees and that makes you competitive. If your fees were too high then you would not get any business - period. Why don't you try it i.e. double your prices and see how many client you keep.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

I personally don't want make ANY assumptions about the forum member and hope that you are all confidant and skilled riders and trainers.

With that said,someone out there is screwing up horses by the dozens and dumping them at rescues and auctions all over the country,turning them loose in state parks too.

Someone is breeding horses and then just leaving them in back yards rather than send them off to training where they might have some chance at a life.

Someone wants a cute baby to raise until they get kicked and give it away to the next door neighbor.

Trainer are having a hard time getting by and people are learning about training from RFD TV instead.

I have always had a trainer and mentor and yet I meet people in the horse world that proudly announce that they have never had a lesson and don't need one either.

I must be terribly dumb is all I can say.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

sarahver said:


> This will probably be the most unusual post I have made in a while and a little George Bush-eske. My thoughts:
> 
> Some people don't even know what they don't know.
> 
> ...



Makes sense to me too!


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## coffeeaddict (Jun 18, 2010)

I appreciate the suggestions, but my business is already successful enough that I don't need to make any adjustments. I offer only board and train and cater to a specific set of clientelle. 

If someone wants cheap they can go to Petsmart. I'm not in the business of servicing everyone and their brother that wants to pay $98 for training. There are other places for that. 

In terms of my business not growing, I've already expanded to cover more than five states.

I think when it comes to horse training it is probably very similar to dog training. There will always be bargin basement trainers (the petsmart trainers of the horse world, maybe?) and there will be higher priced trainers. Just like there will always be clients that want something cheap, and then clients who are willing to pay for something better. 

Personally I prefer to train four or five dogs and make more than someone else who does triple the work. I would think there are horse trainers who feel the same and do just fine for themselves.



> It is not a good business strategy to base your fees on your costs alone.


No, what's not a good business practice is to base your fees on what you think other people can afford and ignore your own needs. That's the quickest way to get in the hole. Unless of course, you can do volume. Petsmart for example succeeds because they can take many many dogs, so the low price doesn't matter to them.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Marecare said:


> Makes sense to me too!


I am glad that the message I was trying to convey somehow made it through the tongue-twister that I disguised it in! :lol:


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

You have to consider what people are willing and able to pay. I don't know if Petsmart makes money I've not examined their financial statements. Of course you can't offer product/services for less than what it costs you that is clear. I am not saying that a business needs to charge less and I think there has been a misunderstanding. I am talking about service delivery, value, and minimum qualifications. 

I think there are some people who don't know what they don't know and I think there are others who don't want to pay and then others who have had bad experiences.


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## christabelle (Feb 13, 2011)

I just don't think that the people who train horses on their own are to blame for influx of horses at slaughter. Its never a good idea to generalize. I never had "professional" training... My family raised me around horses. I have encountered problems I was unsure about, and was able to muddle through them, and I still own every horse I have ever purchased. I think some personality types doom their horse pro trainer or not. If your not committed to the idea of training and caring for a horse, you should not get one... The pound problem will tell you the same story about dogs and cats... Getting a puppy sounds like a great idea until reality sets in... Ostracizing "do it yourselfers" is asinine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Apologies also: It was a Rumsfield quote, not Dubya. Not to get off track but I can't leave a mistake uncorrected. Especially my own.

Carry on though...


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## coffeeaddict (Jun 18, 2010)

> You have to consider what people are willing and able to pay.
> ​


Willing to pay, yes. Able to pay? Not so much, unless you want to do volume. What I've learned is that a lot of people can afford much more than I ever thought. Even when the economy sucks there are still people it hasn't touched, and never will. They're still rolling in it. 



> I am not saying that a business needs to charge less and I think there has been a misunderstanding.


I'm sorry, when you said it needed to be more affordable I thought you meant that trainers needed to lower their prices for people that couldn't otherwise afford it.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

christabelle said:


> I just don't think that the people who train horses on their own are to blame for influx of horses at slaughter.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree. It is people that are not committed or have had financial ruin. Both DIYs and professionals do an equally good job of ruining horses. But truthfully there are plenty of really good horses that go to slaughter because there are too many horses.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

coffeeaddict said:


> Willing to pay, yes. Able to pay? Not so much, unless you want to do volume. What I've learned is that a lot of people can afford much more than I ever thought. Even when the economy sucks there are still people it hasn't touched, and never will. They're still rolling in it.


I disagree and agree. People always want to pay as little as possible - of course! But when you try to sell service/product and people don't value it then you have a problem and likewise if they really can't pay then you also have a problem.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

TheLovedOne said:


> You have to consider what people are willing and able to pay. I don't know if Petsmart makes money I've not examined their financial statements. Of course you can't offer product/services for less than what it costs you that is clear. I am not saying that a business needs to charge less and I think there has been a misunderstanding. I am talking about service delivery, value, and minimum qualifications.
> 
> I think there are some people who don't know what they don't know and I think there are others who don't want to pay and then others who have had bad experiences.



The average guy that comes and mows the lawn and rakes the yard gets more money at the end of the day than a horse trainer.

Rental of a barn/facilities.
Insurance.
Health care for normal injuries.
Tack.

30 days of training at 350 a month (not counting board) and 5 days a week.
One hour per lesson equals about 17.50 per hour gross pay minus all expenses.
The person is lucky to clear 10 buck an hour and they still have to hire help to get other things done like answer phones and haul clients horses.


I am not talking about some World Class Olympic rider doing seminars I am talking about a day in day out rider that puts 30,60,90 days start on a horse.

And still people say it is too much money to spend.


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## coffeeaddict (Jun 18, 2010)

> But when you try to sell service/product and people don't value it then you have a problem


Yes. And many people equate value with $$$$ If they pay more for it, they value it more. Just what I've seen.


Edited to add, if the average horse trainer is only charging $350 a month, holy cow that seems insanely low!


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

Marecare said:


> The average guy that comes and mows the lawn and rakes the yard gets more money at the end of the day than a horse trainer.
> 
> And still people say it is too much money to spend.


I know and that's why it is hard to find someone good because it is really tough to actually earn a living at it. I always say it is the vow of poverty  

I have thought that maybe a different formula could be used to provide the same service or better. I think that people are too focused on 30, 60, 90 days of training and you bring your horse to me and it'll stay for a month etc. Maybe it's time to get creative and at the same time increase the amount of money you can earn or at least not reduce it any further.


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

IMHO, a lot of non-horsepeople forget that horses aren't ATVs or pickup trucks or big dogs, and they expect their new 2 year olds to be as obedient as the ATV. People watch Black Stallion and take it as normality, and the horse loses out when the owner learns fact from fiction. Horses take a touch that an ATV just doesn't, and some people can't be convinced of that until there's a major problem. 

It seems to me more and more that "people" in general don't think things all the way through, and it's not a phenomenon confined to the equine industry. 

It isn't the fault of average trainers or overpricing in-person assistance or anything like that, IMHO. Trainers have to cover their costs, and those are rising. It isn't about providing a service and tailoring it to the amount that will allow everyone in an area to afford it - it's about entrepreneurship; seeing an opportunity for a business, and pricing yourself so that you make slightly more than you spend to operate. Part of that entrepreneurial spirit might be tailoring yourself a little more creatively, as TLO remarked. If you profit, there's a demand for your business and product at that price. If you can't charge higher for your product than it costs to produce it, you go out of business for lack of demand. This is reason Numero Uno why I can't find a decent dressage instructor within a reasonable distance and cost for me. :lol:

Granted, I do think that the "trainer in a box" systems that are on the market tend to perpetuate the idea that "anyone" can do it with "any" horse. Again, that isn't confined to the equine industry - people tend to want what they want in a pretty little box and have it work for good the first time. High time-preference is taking over. 

I'm a youngster compared to many of the posters on this forum, and I do train my own horse, but I do have a background of several years' riding lessons and 4-H membership, and I have a bizarrely willing and compliant horse to work with. I would in no sense consider myself a Trainer. 

It's a shame that horses lose out because of the ignorance of some owners, but, as the saying goes, "you can't fix stupid." All you can do is offer help and advice, and hope for the best.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

Yes SR I think you raise many good points. I want to address the training in a box rise in popularity. I think it would be smart to incorporate them into a service offering rather than just looking down at the end of your nose. Some of the DVDs are really good and really help people a lot. If nothing else they help people learn what to look for in a professional. I think that first sitting down and listing all the services that you provide would be a good start. Then costing them out. Then eliminating the money losers or replacing them. I would not haul horses at all for example. I would also not want to keep horses at my place for a month at time either. Making hay is way too much work


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

TheLovedOne said:


> Yes SR I think you raise many good points. I want to address the training in a box rise in popularity. I think it would be smart to incorporate them into a service offering rather than just looking down at the end of your nose. Some of the DVDs are really good and really help people a lot. If nothing else they help people learn what to look for in a professional. I think that first sitting down and listing all the services that you provide would be a good start. Then costing them out. Then eliminating the money losers or replacing them. I would not haul horses at all for example. I would also not want to keep horses at my place for a month at time either. Making hay is way too much work


I agree that there is a lot of good information to be had in DVDs, and books as well. I can't even begin to describe how much I've learned through books, DVDs, and *gasp* RFD TV. I haven't got a thing against disseminating information through alternative media - shoot, here I sit giving the best advice I can on topics that I have some experience dealing with on an online forum! :wink:

What seems to be the problem is the idea that buying the box and watching the DVDs makes you the Horse Whisperer, which seems to be a startlingly prevalent idea. It's like the mindset that owning a fully-stocked toolbelt makes you Bob Vila - ain't gonna happen like that. The media should be a supplement to common sense in choice of horses at least, and at best as a reference or supplement to existing knowledge or training. Even a lot of the problems that arise from the trainer-in-a-box mindset would be less damaging, I think, if the box were applied to something other than a rank 2 year old. 

It's the mindset that is dangerous, not the tools, like anything else. Don't blame the tool, blame the brain attached to the hand that's holding it.

If I ever felt that I was in a position to offer training services, I would consider something like making a follow-up DVD with troubleshooting reminders and "homework" exercises for after I sent the horse home. The point remains, if someone is so dead-set against enlisting the help of a trainer or even a riding instructor for themself, that isn't going to help any ruined horses. There are just some aspects of feel and timing that take experienced eyes in person to teach. However, if you're naturally gifted with perfect horse-sense, timing, and feel, who am I to tell you anything? ("You" intended here collectively, not to you, TLO :wink: )


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

Scoutrider said:


> I agree that there is a lot of good information to be had in DVDs, and books as well. I can't even begin to describe how much I've learned through books, DVDs, and *gasp* RFD TV. I haven't got a thing against disseminating information through alternative media - shoot, here I sit giving the best advice I can on topics that I have some experience dealing with on an online forum! :wink:
> 
> What seems to be the problem is the idea that buying the box and watching the DVDs makes you the Horse Whisperer, which seems to be a startlingly prevalent idea. It's like the mindset that owning a fully-stocked toolbelt makes you Bob Vila - ain't gonna happen like that. The media should be a supplement to common sense in choice of horses at least, and at best as a reference or supplement to existing knowledge or training. Even a lot of the problems that arise from the trainer-in-a-box mindset would be less damaging, I think, if the box were applied to something other than a rank 2 year old.
> 
> ...



I agree that the media information is great to have and I think it helps many but it is not a complete substitute to fill all of the needs of a person that has no experience with horses and that is when the information turns into "Painting by the numbers" approach.

If a person were to use the same approach in other areas of their life they might see the folly of the thinking.

Watch my three videos and become an expert sky diver.

Learn how to SCUBA dive in two hours!

Fly an airplane after reading this easy booklet.

Sail around the world in a boat you build yourself in your spare time.

Free climb Half Dome and learn how to make your own climbing gear from household junk after four simple lessons.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

OK I think this is correct. So what I would do next (if I were running this business) is to do a market survey. Figure out what people want and what they would pay. One thing that I have observed various horse trainers doing is spending way too much time talking and doing things that are not revenue generating. I suppose it's just like any other business you have to really get focused, do your market research, marketing, and create a business plan. I do believe that the people who are DIYs are still potential clients. You just have to figure out how to speak to them an sell them your services.


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

The ability to follow a recipe does not make one a chef anymore than following a program makes one a trainer. I think part of the problem is that people don't bother to become educated before they become horse owners. I was talking with someone from the UK about how times have changed and they commented that even the rich kids had to have riding lessons before their parents bought them ponies. Today, priorities seem to be backward. Get the horse first, then learn.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

Horse Poor said:


> The ability to follow a recipe does not make one a chef anymore than following a program makes one a trainer. I think part of the problem is that people don't bother to become educated before they become horse owners. I was talking with someone from the UK about how times have changed and they commented that even the rich kids had to have riding lessons before their parents bought them ponies. Today, priorities seem to be backward. Get the horse first, then learn.



This exactly!

I still don't understand why it has changed and people can't wait for the end result.

Their rushing is the vehicle of their demise.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Bravo, MC.

I really don't think anyone is implying that it is _impossible_ for a green rider to get a rideable horse at the end of the 'training' process; given that the horse is good natured or the rider is determined enough. However, it is usually doubtful that anyone else would be interested in buying the horse with the training (or lack of) that it gets or want to pay that person to train a green horse for them. 

Heck, I did it when I was young and stupid. The horse ended up being rideable at the end of it too and neither of us was seriously hurt. However, his training was crappy because I really didn't know much about how to properly teach things. You put enough miles on a horse and they'll get broke, but your definition of broke may be light years away from everyone else's.

It's when people who couldn't find their own *** with both hands and a mirror get a horse that isn't quite so good natured about things that everything goes pear shaped. That's why people like MC and myself end up with horses in our barn that have been bucking other folks off or they come with stories like "Well, she's had 30 days training with -soandso- but when I got her home, she blew up when I tried to put the saddle pad on her." 

Or, even better, "She was unhandled when we got her and now, for some reason, she charges us in the pen and won't lead even when we do manage to get a halter on her. She kicks and paws at us but we don't know why. We wanted to train her ourselves, but after realizing that we were in way over our heads, we thought it would be best to bring her here." Of course, this is after they have done just enough with the horse that it will take more time to undo what they did than it would have to just have someone do it right the first time. Sometimes, the horse never gets over that initial training that they got and will forever be a biter or a kicker or a bucker.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Marecare said:


> With that said,someone out there is screwing up horses by the dozens and dumping them at rescues and auctions all over the country,turning them loose in state parks too.


Not EVERYONE is like that. I took in 2 (very cheap) unhandled youngsters with almost zero experience on my side. Both are with me for 5+ years. Both have their feet done, teeth done, shots done, hay, pellets (with lots of research thrown in), dewormer, tack (3 visits from saddle fitter), you name it. They've never been in professional training. When time came (last year) I started lessons with very good dressage instructor, who has expectations for both of them. I plan on showing this year (health-permitted). 

I NEVER called myself a trainer (and throw advices only based on what I learned, researched, and read) still I didn't send them to one. Main reason is that trainers "breaking horses" around here are not those I trust (I did drove through several barns talking and watching). Those I really like and trust only work with broke horses and told me "no" right on spot.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

smrobs said:


> Bravo, MC.
> 
> *I really don't think anyone is implying that it is impossible for a green rider to get a rideable horse at the end of the 'training' process; given that the horse is good natured or the rider is determined enough.* However, it is usually doubtful that anyone else would be interested in buying the horse with the training (or lack of) that it gets or want to pay that person to train a green horse for them.
> 
> ...



This is precisely why I wanted to bring up this topic!

Given enough time and energy a person is capable of many feats but why not just get some help and stop trying to re-invent the wheel.

It is easier on you and it darn sure is easier on the horse.

One of the greatest faults of humans is pride.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

I don't think this has anything to do with pride. It has to do with an "industry" full of people that are not good, will tell you anything you want to hear, take your money, and then wash their hands of it. Have you heard the widely known term "horse trader" and its connotations? Well there is a reason for this and I think that until horse professionals raise the bar in their own profession it will only get worse because there is a lot of information sharing these days and people in general are becoming more aware. Further there are lots of people that can learn, that are athletic and will do it on their own through DVDs etc and will do better than the local person who hasn't learned from anyone noteworthy or truly skilled let alone watched DVDs or read any books. That's what you get when there is no certification, association etc that has any real value or ethics.


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

TheLovedOne said:


> I don't think this has anything to do with pride. It has to do with an "industry" full of people that are not good, will tell you anything you want to hear, take your money, and then wash their hands of it. Have you heard the widely known term "horse trader" and its connotations? Well there is a reason for this and I think that until horse professionals raise the bar in their own profession it will only get worse because there is a lot of information sharing these days and people in general are becoming more aware. Further there are lots of people that can learn, that are athletic and will do it on their own through DVDs etc and will do better than the local person who hasn't learned from anyone noteworthy or truly skilled let alone watched DVDs or read any books. *That's what you get when there is no certification, association etc that has any real value or ethics.*


Perhaps slightly off topic, but I would dispute the claim that certifications and associations make any industry "better" in and of themselves. If the aim of the game is to make quality training cheaper and more accessible, certification will raise costs to the trainer, which he/she will pass on to the consumer. Certification is an investment in the production of training, not a prerequisite for competency. Personally, if I were in the market for a trainer, their observable ability and accomplishments (i.e. show record and quality of 'finished' horses) means a lot more to me than how many certificates they have hanging in their tack room. Yes, it's probably a good for marketing move to become certified or affiliated with an association as a professional trainer, but it will never truly guarantee quality or ability. The owner always has a responsibility to do the research and make the right training decisions for themselves and their horse. 

I'll second the idea that it's a matter of pride on the part of the owner who has bitten off more than they can chew, and it isn't fair to blame the industry at large for the poor judgement of individuals without guidance, or the inclination to seek guidance when they need it. A lot of people *know* that they are expert trainers, and will not be convinced otherwise, even if the water is rising. Unconscious ignorance typically causes the purchase of the unsuitable horse, and pride prevents people from taking steps to rectify the situation when that unsuitability becomes clear.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

coffeeaddict said:


> I do not price my services based on what everyone can afford, I price them based on what my time is worth and what I need to cover my own costs. This hasn't resulted in a business failure for me.


Pricing your services so everyone can afford them, and not to cover your own costs (and make a profit) is a sure fire way to make that service no longer available to others because the business will fail.

Duh! Basic business 101.

Coffeeaddict, you make tons of sense. The (lack of) logic that one should price training so anyone can afford it is nothing short of a joke.

Horses are a luxury item. If you can not afford proper care, which includes training in many cases, then maybe you should reconsider having this particular luxury item.

I have no issue with people learning how to train and doing it themselves if they have the guidance of a professional to help them along the way. The problem comes in when people insist they know all and are truly clueless.


Sarah, you make a good point.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Gah! I hate finding great threads right before i leave for class. Subscribing


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

TheLovedOne said:


> First of all, I think that you know little about developing a business. Second of all, I doubt that you are a professional. I'm not saying this to be nasty but I am saying this to make a point about two things.


I think this is very much a case of "hello Pot, my name is kettle!"



TheLovedOne said:


> Developing a business does require the business owner to understand what the value or perceived value is for the product or service provided. It does require that the business owner understand the market and therefore does not offer services that people can't afford or don't value. Not understanding this will result in business failure.


Yes a business owner needs to understand the market but offering a service that everyone can afford with no regards to your own profit generaly is a quick way to a very bad cash flow crisis



TheLovedOne said:


> You have to consider what people are willing and able to pay. I don't know if Petsmart makes money I've not examined their financial statements. Of course you can't offer product/services for less than what it costs you that is clear. I am not saying that a business needs to charge less and I think there has been a misunderstanding. I am talking about service delivery, value, and minimum qualifications.


People are willing to pay for quality and care and they are willing to pay good money for it. We run care homes for the elderly, we charge in excess of £400 per WEEK per person, can everyone afford that? like hell they can, are we currently full with waiting lists, you bet we are. We have one couple is a huge luxury roonm that are willing to pay the price for that room (concidering the price per week for that room is more then my salary each month they have quite a bit of money floating round).

There are people who the ressession hasnt touched and who armore then willing to pay a premium for good service.

I've sent my horse away to proffessionals, no I did not send him away to the cheapest one, infact I sent him to one that cost me £140 a week, unfortunatly she was unable to cope with his problems but she came out and said it as soon as the problem developed so that I had time to find someone else.
He is now away at anouther trainers (NH trainer) she charges slightly less then the 1st one but again has had good reviews.
If this doesnt work then I have a few more extremely expensive options but I took on the responsibility for this horse and I am willing to put the money in to sort him out.

I am not a novice, I can ride and school horses myself. What I lack is the experiance, facilities, time, helping hands and confidence to break a problem horse myself. When I'm actualy able to get on him then any problems undersaddle I can deal with.




Alwaysbehind said:


> Pricing your services so everyone can afford them, and not to cover your own costs (and make a profit) is a sure fire way to make that service no longer available to others because the business will fail.
> 
> Duh! Basic business 101.
> 
> Coffeeaddict, you make tons of sense. The (lack of) logic that one should price training so anyone can afford it is nothing short of a joke.


Ditto this.

Any successfull business has to have decent cash flow, this means that you need to know the absolute details of what you spend in minute detail, this includes costs paid out and it includes a decent wage for you (and it has got to be a wage you can live on and that takes into account the hard work, qualifications, time and risk you have taken).

On top of that you then need to add profit and save for a rainy day! We've had more then a few rainy days in our business (comes with the territory, old people die and they tend to do so in groups, generaly around christmas as well) If our business did not have the bank balance it did then we would have gone under years ago. 
We know that we need 10 residents on one home to break even (including our costs), the home is normaly full to capacity at 13 residents however last year unfortunatly we had 3 people pass away at christmas and one go into nursing care so we were sat for nearly a month at 9 residents. THis ment we had to use the companies bank balance to prop up the business for long enough for us to get 4 more people in (paperwork takes forever and over the christmas period is even worse). It is now back making a good profit.

And before you say anything mum bought this business 15 years ago ad it was in dire straits, she bought it for the bricks and morter value of the building it was in. After years of blood, sweat and tears from the whole family, we now have several care homes, a multimillion ££ business and are one of the most stable care home businesses around. So yes the whole family knows a bit or 2 about running and expanding a successfull business.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Everyone who trains knows you get stuck sometimes. I find most DIY trainers are less likely to ask for help. Too much pride involved with "doing it by yourself". Also i find with people who sit on a horse and call themselves a trainer are more emotionally involved then people who actually do it for a living. They get frustrated easier and take things way too personally when they get "stuck". _Most_ professionals are able to realize when they need help.

I was a DIY-er, my first pony i trained myself. I was 10 years old on a 14.2hh pony with a bad attitude. I really wish i had a professional trainer helping me who knew what they were doing. I made alot of mistakes and developed alot of bad habits that im still trying to break today. Since then i have broke 3 horses and fully trained one. During that time i had gotten help from others here and there. My technique had gotten progressively better but i realized if i wanted to make a living off this i needed more tools in my bag of "training tricks". I decided i needed a college degree in training, which was the best decision i could of ever made. 

IMO everyone who trains horses needs a trainer at some point. Unless your gods gift to horses :roll:

Also there is a girl here in my program who is a DIY-er, she is very close minded and doesnt listen to the professors at all. She is very hard with her hands, has no feel, her style is yank spur yank spur. She put an add in our school paper advertising her "training" business for the summer. Charging $850 a month!! That is an insane amount of money, she has no barn or arena. This is just simply for training, the person owning a horse has to find a place to board and pay that ontop of her training. Our school professors dont even charge that much for training.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

.Delete. said:


> Unless your gods gift to horses :roll:


Which is pretty much nonexistent Delete, regardless of how wonderful and talented some people _think _they are. :?

I've seen plenty of DIY trained horses. In my trainer's barn, being trained out of the horrible habits they learned because their owners thought they knew better than someone who actually trains horses for a living.

I've heard her curse under her breath about people ruining their horses, and how much easier it would have been if she'd gotten the horse _without_ the so-called 'training' their owners put into them.

Everyone, horses included, learn best what they learn first, so when you teach them INCORRECTLY it takes twice as long for them to unlearn it, and there's always the chance they'll revert, especially if the owner isn't willing to learn along with the animal.

The people who vehemently declare themselves to be wunderkind trainers are also the ones who post ridiculous newbie questions. If they're so danged gifted, why can't they figure out what's wrong with their animal? After all, someone who's supposed to be so naturally talented shouldn't NEED to ask basic training questions.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Marecare said:


> I don't know about you but I am just getting started on the topic.


Exactly what do you hope to accomplish?


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

mls said:


> Exactly what do you hope to accomplish?


Giggle, the same thing he is always trying to accomplish.... 





(Telling the rest of us we are clueless and he is the only one who knows the right way.)


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

mls said:


> Exactly what do you hope to accomplish?



Conversation about the topic gives me perspective about OTHER peoples feeling about the subject matter.

It may also give someone else the idea to call a trainer or mentor for help.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

First I have operated a business for over a decade that is successful and supports my household. I am a professional and have worked in my industry for about 25 years. I never said that affordable = product/service under cost... Seriously there are plenty of businesses that offer affordable product that are making very good margins. Further, affordable for a client may mean more flexibility on the part of the business. At the end of the day the business would hopefully have higher revenues. 

I think there are plenty of certifications for horse industry professionals that mean nothing. That is not what I'm talking about. There are lots of people with show records that frankly suck. So I guess people that want to try to make money with horses will continue to rely on others for support because it is clear to me that collectively you will never raise your profile and become a trusted industry. No my prediction is things are going to get worse for these people. The local market here, except for a few people, is completely dead and our economy isn't even bad. So what does that tell you.

I don't think this thread will encourage anyone to hire a horse professional. In fact, I think that when people get really defensive about the so called industry it is a huge turn off. It just represents how a perspective client will be treated and what kind of service they can expect.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Speed Racer said:


> Which is pretty much nonexistent Delete, regardless of how wonderful and talented some people _think _they are. :?


Although in my experience almost 100% trainers (whether "learn yourself" or accomplished) say they DO have God given talent that let them train (sometime almost from day one)....


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Marecare said:


> Conversation about the topic gives me perspective about OTHER peoples feeling about the subject matter.


Unfortunately our feelings won't change a fact that every second or third person calls him/herself a TRAINER. Which is too often true for beginners (those who are "in horses" for many years much less likely to call themselves "trainers").


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

TheLovedOne said:


> I don't think this thread will encourage anyone to hire a horse professional.


Very true. In fact even though I agree with lots of facts/opinions stated here telling someone he/she can't train and should get a professional too often won't lead anywhere but irritation and defense (sometime pretty rude). Even though I do suggest to look into the trainer's help quite often here myself... :wink:


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> Unfortunately our feelings won't change a fact that every second or third person calls him/herself a TRAINER. Which is too often true for beginners (those who are "in horses" for many years much less likely to call themselves "trainers").


I might refer to myself as a mechanic or a gardener or and plumber but still seek help when a project is over my head.

I might think I know how to drive a car but if I am asked to drive a big freight truck and trailer my common sense will tell me to either gain the skill or find someone to help me.

People do not approach the horse in the same way and feel that they are born with skills that border on mystical powers.


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## westernhorse (Mar 12, 2011)

what qualifies a "professional" trainer? sure i know some go to school, but its really hard to find a REAL trainer. we paid 6,000$ to have my sisters horse "professionally" trained, for reining. I have never seen a horse soo misbehaved! I trained a gelding last year, paid 200$ for him at an auction trained him myself. much to many ppls distraught "you cant cheap out on training" I was told. Chevy was probably the BEST horse weve ever had! ANYONE could jump on him even without a halter and go for a joyful ride. He loved to please... with Spartan... our over priced "professionally" trained horse... the only people who are able to ride him are myself and my sister... anyone else he will buck, rear, bolt, or just flat out lay down and roll on them. So alot of the time even if they have a cirtificate saying that they are a "professional" trainer... they really arent. and if you have the time, and knowledge you can train your horse than anyone else can for you


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## westernhorse (Mar 12, 2011)

theres no harm in asking for help from someone who has more experiance with training than you do... im not saying go solo. Advice from old cowboys is often the greatest advice one can get


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Marecare said:


> I might refer to myself as a mechanic or a gardener or and plumber but still seek help when a project is over my head.


Well... You can refer to yourself as nuclear physics engineer after reading couple books. :wink: I'm really good in one area of legal services (in fact beat up real lawyers when it came to knowing certain (not very common) rules and cases), BUT I don't call myself a lawyer. It's all about how one look at it.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

Oh,I don't know.
Maybe I should have titled this thread...
"People that have deep mystical powers with animals and don't need any training."

The point is that the title of "Professional" means very little in the horse world even if you are a Vet or Farrier.

You can get a license to be a Farrier in 7 weeks here in the States and it takes years in other countries.
That does not mean that a license means nothing,it just means that the Professional is only as good as the individual wants to be.

The same of training.

A quick check of CL is all that is needed to find a 15yo that is advertising his or her services as a trainer.
They my be the greatest rider and trainer ever born but have no License.

All of this said,I am still going to seek out* qualified *help and mentors when I need it and that is more than many do in the horse world.


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## westernhorse (Mar 12, 2011)

so you would rather have your horses trained by someone who read all the books there are to read on training and took tests on them... than have someone how actually can work with horses... i have watched some Qualified trainers work with horses, and yea theyre AMAZING! there are actually some who can turn a horse around in an instant... Im just ****ed that some people can get a piece of paper that says there a "professional" trainer, and abuse a horse into submition. then when it goes to a new home, that horse is so scared that the first few months its a dream to ride... and the people who ride him durring those three months never have any problems... then you take a friend riding (one who has ridden horses all their lives) and it takes off on them... it starts rearing bucking and bolting. its those people that put a sour taste for trainers in alot of peoples mouths! noone is able to ride spartan asside from my immediate family. because we were the ones who were with him when he was "well behaved" everytime we ride by the place he was trained, he smartens up immediately.


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## westernhorse (Mar 12, 2011)

I would NOT say that our "professionaly" trained horses are well broke... far from actually. its the horses that were trained by someone who was "unqualified" and 15 years old that seem to be the best behaved in every aspect. theyre paitent, calm, and willing, where the proffesionally trained ones have actually pushed people out of the way... one actually walked over the farrier while he was trying to nail on a shoe. he wont load for anything. that to me is NOT a professionally trained horse... and a waste of good money!


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

It's a bit of a Catch-22, isn't it? Lets say you're new to horse ownership, realize you've gotten in over your head, and you're smart enough to find a trainer. But if you're a complete novice, you're unlikely to be able to tell a bad or mediocre trainer from a good one. Certifications in my experience don't mean anything, other than that the person has taken a test. I remember watching a BHS certified instructor giving a "dressage" lesson (I used to keep my horse at at a stable with stalls along the side of the indoor arena) where she was training the horse to "soften" by going around and around a twenty meter circle with the horse's head cranked around to one side, with no release or anything, and the horse's shoulders going one way and the hind-end somewhere else entirely. The horse's novice owner had no idea this was pretty rubbish training -- why would she? 

Can you regulate the industry in a sensible way that's not overly controlling or narrow (and therefore deleterious towards multiple methods and philosophies of training)? In all honest, I don't see how. Part of the whole process of getting your first horse seems to be a matter of throwing yourself into the shark pen and seeing how you fair.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Well said silverspear. Westernhorse, there would be no way to regulate to ensure only good trainers got certified so that would be a waste of time to worry about certification. There are good and bad in all walks of life and, as the owner, it is your responsibility to check out the trainer before you send your horse to them. Seek out old customers and ask their opinion, go and watch them work with horses often. Any trainer worth their salt won't mind if potential customers come to check them out first. If they are adamant about not being watched, then there is something fishy there. 

It is also your responsibility as an owner to check up on your own horse. If you show up and don't like what you see, then it may be time to consider something else.

I can't be certain of MC's definition of *qualified* in his last post, but to me, qualified means someone who is a proven good trainer. Someone who I have seen work that I like how they work and handle horses. Someone with consistent good results who has been in the game for a significant amount of time. NOT someone who has some piece of paper claiming to be a certified trainer of whatever. Shoot, I've seen lots of 'certified' trainers out there that I wouldn't send a stick-horse to for training.

IMHO, a person's qualifications come from their visible results, not some piece of paper. If you didn't like the way your horses got back from the trainer, then it isn't _totally_ the trainer's fault. It is highly unlikely that your horse was an isolated incident if it came home with so many issues and with a little bit of investigation, you probably could have found other disgruntled customers _before_ you sent your horse there. Even if you didn't, you would have seen the deterioration of the horse's manners if you had been checking on it occasionally.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

Yes I think that as a novice you are so vulnerable and there is no way for you to really know. We should ask the industry this "why are all these certifications so meaningless" I have done some investigation into a few of them only to find that the organizations that offer certifications are not interested in providing education. They are only interested in collecting fees. They don't even offer consumers an avenue to report abuse or bad service. How do you like that. 

I think what bothers me even more is how the "professionals" just love attacking the people who get the bad service rather than making changes to their own industry.

Are there bad farriers or bad vets - yes but at least when I examine the qualifications I can come to some conclusion before I engage their services. Furthermore, in the event that some terrible thing happens I can contact the College and make a formal compliant and perhaps even sue if there are damages. But if a "professional horse trainer" creates a mess they just walk away and you get to live with it. 

If I go to a dentist and she then removes a tooth unnecessarily then who gets the blame the dentist or the patient. I think it's the dentist. But if it's a horse trainer that abuses a horse which then becomes very difficult to handle for the client who gets the blame - the client. So why is there confusion about why people don't want to hire professional horse trainers.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

Smrobs I have heard this checking out the trainer etc so many times and yet this still does nothing to ensure that the trainer is good. It is nearly impossible for someone who is a novice to truly know if someone is good or the abuser from hell. I have seen it so many times. 

Horse training is just a trade and I know that there are lots of people that sell services such as carpenters that are not journeyman carpenters. In other words, they do not have any education. The carpenters without education are simply not as qualified as the ones that are - end of story.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Which is one more reason why a novice should not buy a green horse. The horse world isn't perfect and it never will be. There will always be people buying green or unhandled horses who have no business with anything but an old plug that has been everywhere and done everything. There will also always be dishonest people who are willing to take advantage of that. I am by no means defending crappy trainers, I get just as frustrated with them as everyone else because I get their screw ups sent to me, but they train how they train and most don't even try to hide the poor practices they have. Yes, they should be honorable enough to seek out ways to better their program, but so long as people are paying them, they don't see the point. So, yes, part of the fault is with the owner for not bothering to educate themselves beforehand.

Comparing a horse trainer to a dentist or a carpenter is laughable. There is no implicit, 100% correct way to train a horse. A person's anatomy, other than minor variations, is the same as everyone else's. Building materials are just building materials and angles don't change based on the wood's attitude. Teeth and wood have no personality of their own that you have to adjust your methods and style to suit. Every single person who trains has their own methods and style and there are dozens of different ways to get the same result, some of them good and others not so good.

Paper qualifications or not, if I was hiring a carpenter, I would still pick the one who had the best results, even if it was the one who learned how to build things from the neighbor down the road. Education isn't everything. Experience plays a huge part in that too.

I still believe that it is never 100% always the trainer's fault if the owner isn't satisfied with the result. If they just drop their horse off and don't bother to do more than mail a check for 6 months, then they are just as much a problem as the crappy trainer. They are not taking the responsibility to ensure that their horse is being well treated.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Where alot of people go wrong with bad trainers is they _dont do enough homework_. If im paying someone to train my horse im gunna be **** sure they are going to be the best possible choice i can get. 

Get references, watch them ride/handle horses (not just once but on several occasions with different horses), talk to their clients, interact with horses they have worked with, ask around, etc etc. A good trainer will have the credentials to back it up wether that be references and a show record or an actual schooling degree.


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

Was it this thread that someone quoted that classic Rumsfeld line about "known unknowns we don't know?" That just about sums it up, in all its confused inarticulacy. If you've been in the game for a while, have brought along a few horses successfully, know what a good, well-trained horse is and how to get one, then it's easy to forget that none of these things are clearly apparent to the complete novice. Neither is the difference "good" training and "bad" training, which beyond the bleeding obvious (the horse isn't getting beaten), isn't apparent either. Even experienced horsepeople can't agree half the time on what consists of good or bad training. 

I suppose I don't have any solutions, but I can unearth loads of problems and questions. The solutions that involve more regulation are too heavy-handed, too blunt. There's no way, as I see it, to make such legislation agile enough to negotiate the complexity of the equine industry. Britain is sort of trying, with its BHS scheme, but (and no offense to anyone who thinks it is awesome) from what I have seen, the BHS training has a limited philosophy; while it provides a good education in some respects, it leaves a gaping hole in others.


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

Sorry, I thought the main issue at hand was the problem of people who believe themselves experts in the realm of horsemanship yet have negligible real-world experience? Not the problem of finding/ensuring a quality trainer? :? 



TheLovedOne said:


> Yes I think that as a novice you are so vulnerable and there is no way for you to really know. We should ask the industry this "why are all these certifications so meaningless" I have done some investigation into a few of them only to find that the organizations that offer certifications are not interested in providing education. They are only interested in collecting fees. They don't even offer consumers an avenue to report abuse or bad service. How do you like that.


It isn't just the horse industry, TLO. Shoot, the average college diploma in whatever discipline/trade is meaning less and less. What makes the certs meaningless is that there are so many roads to Rome in training horses. In my (granted, limited) understanding there are a heap of organizations that certify trainers and instructors, and I run out of fingers counting just the people I know in-person seeking certification. There are just too many "trainers" out there for these cert organizations to police all of their activity. That's where the owner's responsibility to do the research kicks in. A little research into the trainer's history, the general training practices for what you want the horse to know, and some common sense can help the novice out. Although, as silverspear said, the novice is at a disadvantage, but such is life. People learn, they make mistakes.



TheLovedOne said:


> I think what bothers me even more is how the "professionals" just love attacking the people who get the bad service rather than making changes to their own industry.


Again, I thought the issue at hand was more so the people who dig a hole for themselves and their green/project horses and flatly refuse professional help when it is clearly necessary for the sake of safety? I'm not attacking victims of poor/fraudulent trainers, I'm saying that the set that insist that they have a bead on things that are chronically pear shaped need to face reality and seek some in-person help. The same goes for those setting out to break in 3 year olds, yet have to ask how to make the horse move forward. 



TheLovedOne said:


> Are there bad farriers or bad vets - yes but at least when I examine the qualifications I can come to some conclusion before I engage their services. Furthermore, in the event that some terrible thing happens I can contact the College and make a formal compliant and perhaps even sue if there are damages. But if a "professional horse trainer" creates a mess they just walk away and you get to live with it.


Sure, you can examine qualifications all you want (again, a collective "you"), but at the end of the day you can also do research on the work done by your local vets and farriers, which, IMHO, is far more valuable in a practical sense than reading certs and diplomas. Yeah, having info on those credentials can help the consumer make a choice, but at the end of the day I care a lot more about what Joe Service Provider has done in the real world than what a piece of paper claims he learned. 



TheLovedOne said:


> If I go to a dentist and she then removes a tooth unnecessarily then who gets the blame the dentist or the patient. I think it's the dentist. *But if it's a horse trainer that abuses a horse which then becomes very difficult to handle for the client who gets the blame - the client. So why is there confusion about why people don't want to hire professional horse trainers.*


So, just to clarify, you're saying that we should expect people to resist hiring a trainer because people at large fear a pro trainer messing up their horse? Never once have I heard that excuse, ever. Perhaps the situation in your neck of the woods is rather different than mine, TLO.:wink:

ETA: Excellent points, smrobs, silverspear, and Delete. Posted while I was getting my ducks in a row,


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

It seems that people are afraid of what a meaningful certification would entail. I guess it's scary when you know that you don't really have any education to back your claims. 

The industry will never change until it becomes accountable. That is not going to happen when people within keep pointing the finger at people who are getting victimized by it.

SR I am not attempting to provide excuses for people who don't want to hire a trainer... I can't possibly account for all the things that you are reading into my writing. I am only suggesting what is wrong and what some possible solutions are. 

Smrobs horse training is a trade. I'm sorry but it is not magic or unique. It can be taught in an organized fashion just as any other trade. I would not take my car to an unlicensed mechanic and in fact it is illegal to say that you are a vet when you are not or that you are an engineer, lawyer when you are not. Maybe there is a reason for that.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

Oh yes as for asking around about other people. I personally know of a trainer that everyone will tell you is good - he is not - he is a horse abuser and has ruined many good horses. So much for that theory.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

As far as buying a green horse. Now why would a novice know any better. I have known so many people that rely on their horse professional to help them buy a horse which then turns into a nightmare. So how should they have known better they did everything right according to some. In fact, it actually takes some skill to properly assess a horse. You know all these things are so common that it is just accepted by this "industry". It really is terrible.


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

TheLovedOne said:


> It seems that people are afraid of what a meaningful certification would entail. I guess it's scary when you know that you don't really have any education to back your claims.


To me its scarier when the claims and produce don't back up the education. :wink: 



TheLovedOne said:


> SR I am not attempting to provide excuses for people who don't want to hire a trainer... I can't possibly account for all the things that you are reading into my writing. I am only suggesting what is wrong and what some possible solutions are.


I'm not intending to read anything into your posts, TLO. Please, if I have misconstrued any of your points, do set me straight on your position. I welcome correction. :lol:



TheLovedOne said:


> Oh yes as for asking around about other people. I personally know of a trainer that everyone will tell you is good - he is not - he is a horse abuser and has ruined many good horses. So much for that theory.


That's where having common sense comes into the equation. No one is saying to go only by word-of-mouth. Exhaust every way you have to learn about a trainer and his/her methods before hiring. Plus, as several threads have uncovered, one man's/woman's "abuse" is a reasonable practice to another. I would have to have more information than just a verbal label of "good" or "abusive" before I'd pass judgement on any trainer.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

I think that some people are suggesting that education replaces experience. I am not implying that at all. Education is the foundation and in all trades experience plays a huge role. That's how trades education works. Even in many professions one has to get experience before you can practice. 

I'm not talking about just one person saying this guy is good. I heard it from at least a dozen people and then after I saw what he does that's when I heard the other side of the story. So if I didn't know any better I would never have known and I think there are lots of people that have relied on these recommendations. I don't care how you are going to define abuse but when a horse comes back and you can't get a bridle on them I think that we can all agree that something is wrong. 

I conclude this "industry" will never progress.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I guess you would have us all be little lemmings doing everything the exact same way as everyone else, using the exact same tack as everyone else, with the same mindset and methods as everyone else. If there was no diversity in horse training, then there would be no diversity in disciplines or levels. If no one was ever allowed to have and pursue an idea that didn't adhere to the school of thought at that time then NH wouldn't exist and neither would many of the individual disciplines that many of us enjoy. Tom and Bill Dorrance would not have gotten their "qualifications" or "credentials" because they didn't agree with the rough-n-ride-em-cowboy mindset that was so standard during that time. Therefore, no-one would have listened to a word they said simply because they didn't finish their "school" :roll:.

If everyone was taught and expected to adhere to the exact same mindset and methods, then there would never be any advancements.

So, what, there is still no responsibility if they don't at least _try_ to educate themselves before they go horse shopping? There are ways for people who are really serious about learning. Lessons, trials, forums, chat rooms, books, videos. Anyone can go on youtube and browse millions of horse videos to see what they like and don't like. See what they want in a horse and what to avoid. They may not be able to pick a decent trail horse out of a group of finished ranch horses, but even people who have never seen a horse in real life will prefer the look of a horse that is loping around nicely on a loose rein over a barrel horse who is prancing sideways and rearing up or bucking every time they lope. 

It is still their responsibility to go out and find ways to educate themselves. They can't just wait for the knowledge to plop itself down in their lap and start purring.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

smrobs said:


> I guess you would have us all be little lemmings doing everything the exact same way as everyone else, using the exact same tack as everyone else, with the same mindset and methods as everyone else.


What? That's what education means to you. That is really sad.



smrobs said:


> So, what, there is still no responsibility if they don't at least _try_ to educate themselves before they go horse shopping? There are ways for people who are really serious about learning. Lessons, trials, forums, chat rooms, books, videos. Anyone can go on youtube and browse millions of horse videos to see what they like and don't like. See what they want in a horse and what to avoid.


How exactly would they be able to discern what is good or what is bad. That's what gets them into trouble in the first place. I know a couple of women who really did their due diligence and yet several "horse professionals" still took them. 



smrobs said:


> It is still their responsibility to go out and find ways to educate themselves. They can't just wait for the knowledge to plop itself down in their lap and start purring.


Here you are again pushing the responsibility back onto the client. You are also not offering any plausible solutions either.


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## FTFOTB (Feb 13, 2011)

Whether you are a novice or an experienced horseman, it's not difficult to tell the difference between someone who is 'qualified' and someone who is not. A qualified person (in any trade) is someone who has a record of competence, ability, and success, and I am not specifically meaning a show record or earnings. Ask around. If you're new to horses and can't tell the difference, ask someone who _can_. It's not that hard to do. To me, it's about the *horse*, not the 30, 60, or 90 days, or the money.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

Maybe we should turn this into a poll.


1. It is the breeders fault.

2. It is the beginners fault.

3. It is the trainers fault.

4. It is the systems fault.

5. It is Marecares fault.

6. None of the above

7. I can't catch my horse.


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

Can I have number 7 for 400 points?


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

:lol: Okay, so maybe it's the potential horse _owner_ who needs to go and get the college courses so that they know what to look for, especially since, according to you, there are no horse professionals out there to be trusted and thus, they should not even try to find one to help. Even if there was a system to make people accountable for the training that they offered, there would always be people who skirted the system, just like there is in every single other walk of life and there would always be people naive or gullible enough to be taken by them. There is no way to stop that.

And yes, some of the responsibility _is_ on the client. I never said it was 100% their fault, but it is not 100% the trainer's fault either. There is no way to stop dishonest or crappy trainers, the only defense for a horse owner is to thoroughly seek out their own information and opinions. Will there still be some who get taken? You betcha, there's no way to stop that just as there is no way to stop drug crime. But half the battle is being educated enough yourself to tell folks "no" when they ask you to deliver a package for them.

ETA: I'll take #5 for $1000, Bob :rofl:. Of course it's all your fault, MC :wink:.


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## coffeeaddict (Jun 18, 2010)

> It seems that people are afraid of what a meaningful certification would entail. I guess it's scary when you know that you don't really have any education to back your claims.


The problem then becomes, who decides what is "meaningful" and what isn't? There are tons of ways to train a horse. Who should decide which is right and which is wrong? 

I doubt there will ever be standards in horse training like there are in other professions, same way as there will never be standards in dog training. Many have tried and failed to create that kind of organization. 

I also don't think that having a certification automatically makes someone a great trainer. It probably won't hurt, depending of course on the methods taught in the program, but a printed certificate does not a horse trainer make. 

I can't count the number of times I've met a "dog trainer" that's come from ABC college and cannot train their way out of a paper bag. It's sad. Yet they paid for that course, the program itself has decent reviews and they have a certificate. Yet I wouldn't trust them with a fish let alone a dog. 

Case in point that being certified doesn't give someone awesome training skills. If throwing money at it and taking some classes were all it took then anyone could succeed at horse training by enrolling in any of the current courses available, but that isn't the case. I'm sure there are many stories of people meeting a "trainer" that couldn't do squat even though they went to school.

You can't "teach" timing, feel and instinct. You either have it or you try like hell to develop it and hope you can.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

coffeeaddict said:


> You can't "teach" timing, feel and instinct. You either have it or you try like hell to develop it and hope you can.


OMG if that were true then there really is no need for "horse professionals" why bother it's not possible LOL.

This is not the first time an industry had to consider working together to create industry standards and accepted levels of knowledge within a vocation. It's not new, it can be done and society is better for it. Oh no wait there's too much magic in horse training - right.


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## coffeeaddict (Jun 18, 2010)

> OMG if that were true then there really is no need for "horse professionals" why bother it's not possible LOL.


Never said that. I said you can't teach someone to have proper timing, feel or instinct. People who don't have it CAN develop it, but it may never come as easy as it does for someone who has it naturally. 

And I'm curious to know how you think the decision should be made regarding what is "meaningful", which methods are right or wrong, and who gets to choose when it comes to certification.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

You see smrobs if you were a little more entrepreneurial then you would see that helping to educate those new to horses is an opportunity waiting to be realized. But wait that might take some education on your part - less learning more earning right.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

coffeeaddict said:


> Never said that. I said you can't teach someone to have proper timing, feel or instinct. People who don't have it CAN develop it, but it may never come as easy as it does for someone who has it naturally.
> 
> And I'm curious to know how you think the decision should be made regarding what is "meaningful", which methods are right or wrong, and who gets to choose when it comes to certification.


I quoted you exactly... please.

Like I said this is not a new concept it has been done for other vocations successfully. Maybe not dog training and obviously not horse training.


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## coffeeaddict (Jun 18, 2010)

Yes, you quoted me exactly and I never said there was magic in horse training or no need for horse professionals.

And you have no good answer for my question. Which is my point. There is no good answer.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Its like singing TLO. To be a *great* singer you have to have a great *natural talent.* To be a decent singer you only have to have decent talent, so on an so fourth. Tho there are many singers out there who cannot sing a lick yet they get record deals and such thanks money and a great record producer.

Its the same concept, the really *great* horsemen out there have great natural talent. Along with people who have absolutely no natural talent with horses (no feel, no common sense, no sense of timing) can go win worlds aslong as they have money a great trainer & horse to sit on and make them look good.

I know a few people who cannot ride to save their lives. But they do very well in the show ring because they have a great horse who was trained by a great trainer who had the talent to do so, the talent the person riding the horse lacks.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

TheLovedOne said:


> OMG if that were true then there really is no need for "horse professionals" why bother it's not possible LOL.


_Professional horsemen help others develop their natural talent and refine it._


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

.Delete. said:


> _Professional horsemen help others develop their natural talent and refine it._


Yes perhaps you should be telling Coffeeaddict this


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

TheLovedOne said:


> You see smrobs if you were a little more entrepreneurial then you would see that helping to educate those new to horses is an opportunity waiting to be realized. *But wait that might take some education on your part* - less learning more earning right.


Is this supposed to be a dig? If so, that's rather petty and childish.

I'm sure it _would_ be rather profitable for someone to start putting on classes for that but that is not where my interest lies. If someone I knew were to ask me for my help, I would be more than happy to, but I am not going to seek out people to learn from me. I don't enjoy the company of people, especially large groups of people I don't know. If I wanted to be a teacher, I would be a teacher. That's why I stick to horses. I don't do it for the money, I do it because I enjoy it.

Since so many people that you know have had such horrible experience with trainers that their experience has turned you off to trainers worldwide, perhaps that would be a good job for you.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

Coffeeaddict I'm sorry you don't understand my answer. I can't make it any clearer. This has been done, it can be done again. Remember when you went to elementary school there was an entire organization of people that created those programs. Lots of people were involved. That's how it works. What are you afraid of some Nazi coming along and interrogating you. Come on now that's a pretty lame excuse.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

smrobs said:


> Is this supposed to be a dig? If so, that's rather petty and childish.


No I was partly joking and partly serious. But you know teaching horses is teaching... and really to be successful you really need to be able to teach people too.



smrobs said:


> Since so many people that you know have had such horrible experience with trainers that their experience has turned you off to trainers worldwide, perhaps that would be a good job for you.


No thanks. I help people from time to time but it's not something I want to do for money. I would rather keep doing what I do to earn a living. But I would seriously like to see things change for the better. However I can tell you that if I were selling services I would be a huge advocate for change because I know that it would be good for me. That's what is so puzzling and also so revealing when I hear such negativity.


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## coffeeaddict (Jun 18, 2010)

> What are you afraid of some Nazi coming along and interrogating you. Come on now that's a pretty lame excuse.


Now you've lost me. 



> This has been done, it can be done again. Remember when you went to elementary school there was an entire organization of people that created those programs. Lots of people were involved. That's how it works.


If this is something you obviously feel so strongly about, then be the change you want to see in the world. Go get the ball rolling on this yourself. 

Then please come back and let us know how it wasn't as simple as you thought it would be.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I don't get where you're seeing the negativity from me:?. I'm happy what I'm doing, I enjoy it, and my customers are happy. I make enough money to live comfortably and am content to do so. That's more than most other people get out of life.

If you think it makes me a negative person because I don't have any interest in something that _you_ think would make the world better, that's just fine with me. It's not my dream, it's yours. If you are so convinced that such a change needs to be made, then take the first step to make it and stop haranguing the rest of us about everything that is wrong with the system.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

coffeeaddict said:


> Then please come back and let us know how it wasn't as simple as you thought it would be.


I said it would be simple.... LOL


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

smrobs said:


> I don't get where you're seeing the negativity from me:?. I'm happy what I'm doing, I enjoy it, and my customers are happy. I make enough money to live comfortably and am content to do so. That's more than most other people get out of life.
> 
> If you think it makes me a negative person because I don't have any interest in something that _you_ think would make the world better, that's just fine with me. It's not my dream, it's yours. If you are so convinced that such a change needs to be made, then take the first step to make it and stop haranguing the rest of us about everything that is wrong with the system.


I'm sure that you're happy doing what you're doing. You have voiced your disinterest and negativity towards the entire concept of creating industry standards, raising the bar for individuals who wish to claim they are "horse professionals" etc that is the negativity to which I am referring. 

It is not my dream anymore than consumer laws are my dream. Maybe that is a dream ... LOL


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

I'm with ya Marecare.... Its amazing how many people think they can train a horse without any experienced help. 
To those saying that finding a good trainer is a crapshoot - what in life isn't? Be smart about finding a trainer and you'll stand a good chance of finding a good trainer. It isn't that hard, and using the excuse that there are more bad trainers than good, so why bother, make me scratch my head. So it's not worth trying to find a good trainer for your sake and the horse's? 
Then again, as kitten said, it seems everyone is a trainer, and there are even more DVD-trained "trainers" out there than ever before.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

TheLovedOne said:


> I'm sure that you're happy doing what you're doing. You have voiced your disinterest and negativity towards the entire concept of creating industry standards, raising the bar for individuals who wish to claim they are "horse professionals" etc that is the negativity to which I am referring.


Disinterest, yes. Negativity, no. If someone wants the headache and trouble of trying to standardize something that is impossible to standardize, then power to them. If that day comes around, then I'll get my little certificate just so that I can continue to do what I love, but I am not going to push for it to be done. That would be about like me trying to push over a mountain with my bare hands. It's just not going to happen.

What always amazes me is the complete lack of accountability in the general population. Everything is always someone else's fault. You didn't like how your horse was when he came back from the trainer? That's the trainer's fault because you didn't do _anything_ wrong. BUT, did you ever check on the horse while he was there? How thoroughly did you check out the trainer? Did you just call former clients that the 'trainer' gave you as references or did you do some searching to find anyone who could have possibly had something negative to say about said trainer? 

Some friends got taken for suckers by some crooked folks claiming to be professionals? That's the supposed "trainers" fault and society's fault because they couldn't have possibly done _anything_ wrong. Again, did they check on the horse while it was there? If buying a horse, did they just consult the one 'professional' or did they get second opinions? Did they try the horse out themselves or did they just take the 'professionals' word for it? How well do they know this professional who's word they are trusting? Have they known them for a long time or are they just someone who happened to be on Craigslist or in the yellow pages?

People who are dishonest are going to be dishonest regardless of what standardization process the system goes through. They will always be there and there will always be suckers who get taken. No number of laws or necessary certifications are ever going to change that.

Each person's own education of themselves is the only thing that will come close to guaranteeing that they are not taken for fools.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Bravo, Jen. Bravo. 
I'm really disappointed at the attack and insinuation about your "education." Whatever that was supposed to mean. Wish you lived closer, I'd love to pick your brain.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Marecare said:


> All of this said,I am still going to seek out* qualified *help and mentors when I need it and that is more than many do in the horse world.


I agree with this statement. Exactly a reason why I take lessons with my current instructor.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

TheLovedOne said:


> To be honest, my cousin is also a dog trainer and her husband supports her. It is not a good business strategy to base your fees on your costs alone. My prediction is that your business will never grow but that you will be able to cover your costs. Your costs are low and so are your fees and that makes you competitive. If your fees were too high then you would not get any business - period. Why don't you try it i.e. double your prices and see how many client you keep.


You are quite insulting and if you continue reacting to people like you have been this forum may become quite unfriendly to you.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Folks, I don't think the purpose of this thread was to jump at each other or (especially) question anyone's education/experience. It was to discuss what people think about this particular subject. EVERYONE has a right to own opinion, and EVERYONE has a right to agree or disagree POLITELY, without insulting other members. _*Please, remember the Etiquette Policy! *_(or the thread will be closed/cleaned)


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

JustDressageIt said:


> I'm with ya Marecare.... Its amazing how many people think they can train a horse without any experienced help.
> To those saying that finding a good trainer is a crapshoot - what in life isn't? Be smart about finding a trainer and you'll stand a good chance of finding a good trainer. It isn't that hard, and using the excuse that there are more bad trainers than good, so why bother, make me scratch my head. So it's not worth trying to find a good trainer for your sake and the horse's?
> Then again, as kitten said, it seems everyone is a trainer, and there are even more DVD-trained "trainers" out there than ever before.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I really thought that the subject matter of this thread dove tailed in to your thread about knowing when to call it quits and walk away.

We all desire success in our lives and just have different ways of going about it.

When someone brings me a horse with a bunch of problems I welcome the challenge and work as hard as I can to solve them to the very best of my ability.

I also reach out to my mentors to add to my knowledge base and gain more perspective about the approaches to 
the problems.

There are always different ways to go about things and the conversation is part of the process for me.

I just see so many folks having a tough time around horses and I sure wish I could make it better for the horses and them.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

I just offer my perspective and some possible solutions. I am not trying to be insulting and when people protest too much I really seriously wonder.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

TLO, what you said to smrobs was quite insulting.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## coffeeaddict (Jun 18, 2010)

What you said to me what also quite insulting. I can understand if you don't intend to come across the way you do, I know that's happened to everyone at one time or another, but in my opinion your suggestions and perspectives are a bit passive aggressive in this thread. 

I'd like to think there can be a debate and have it be just that, a debate. Nothing more. It doesn't have to be personal.


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

TLO - There are standards for competitive areas of the horse industry. Racing is one where everyone, from groomer to trainer has to prove themselves, take a test and get licensed. Associations have standards as well. And just because you own a horse doesn't make you part of the "horse industry" any more than owning a truck makes me part of the trucking industry. Standards are not the problem. I've seen people proudly display their certificate from XYZ big name media trainer that can barely ride let alone train and I've seen ranch kids who have never had a professional lesson in their life ride better than most instructors. The problem is that everyone with a dollar bill and a desire is buying, selling, training and breeding horses without a CLUE.


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## Dusty1228 (Dec 2, 2010)

sarahver said:


> This will probably be the most unusual post I have made in a while and a little George Bush-eske. My thoughts:
> 
> Some people don't even know what they don't know.
> 
> ...


This is off topic, but I have to say I had heard G.B. say those particular words so many times and it just made me angry because I was like 'what the FRICK is this guy talking about?' 
But you know what? The way you explained it, I FINALLY got it about unknown-unknowns! NOW it makes sense! It's so funny, but the way you explained it clicked in my head!!! So, I must admit, HECK YES, it made COMPLETE sense to me, what you said!


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## touchofsleep (Mar 9, 2011)

thats why I send my horse to a trainer!!! too **** hot to deal with his crap and that's why they have trainers! I just want to enjoy my horse


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Marecare, I'm not sure if I posted it earlier or not, but I thought of the exact same thing when I read the OP - that it fit perfectly with my "Playing the Hero" thread.


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## somoni (Mar 16, 2011)

Training a horse needs skills and experience. I think so.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

*TLO's not insulting, that I can see!*



TheLovedOne said:


> I just offer my perspective and some possible solutions. I am not trying to be insulting and when people protest too much I really seriously wonder.


 I've read several of your posts here, & I didn't find you to be insulting. :roll: 

What I did find, was the same gaggle of posters, who repeatedly take offense at someone just being candid instead of walking around on eggshells!:-x


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

I really can't explain this phenomenon, marecare...just that I've bought, over the years, several of these types of horses who have been excitedly bought, with the expectation that they would be able train said horse. When they failed, the horse was sold, or brought to auction. 

I understand that folks love horses, and want to be able enjoy them, but sometimes I think patience runs out, and they choose to 'settle' for the cheaper project horse, rather than waiting until they can afford a more suitable mount for their experience level. I guess in someways, that's where folks like myself come in, with the experience to train, or retrain horses, and offer help where I can when friends have need. I don't have facilities to train (did til a few years back), and sometimes I wish I did; maybe someday...


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