# Leaning on the bit - to the extreme



## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I don't think I've ever been as frustrated as I was yesterday with my horse. Granted I understand she's been out with a leg injury, but her disrespect for the bit is alarming at best. I'm not even sure if this is fixable giving my limited resources - right now, we have NOWHERE to ride except the road as everything is in puddles.

I actually had to get off and walk her home. I went out for a ride with Ashley just for a WALK to stretch her legs as she's coming off a layup. She rides in a loose ring french link snaffle - and she was literally uncontollable. I've ALWAYS had this problem with her, and even my Dressage coach wasn't sure how to fix it - she just braces on the bit and nothing short of JABBING her in the mouth will make her stop.

Yesterday, she was right back to her Arab tricks. We'd be walking nicely and I'd be working on some flexion, and as soon as I got some vertical flexion, she'd just brace every ounce of strength she had against my hands. She completely ignores my "sponging" until I'm literally YANKING on the side of her face to get her to let up on me. If Justus trotted to catch up, Zierra would throw her nose as high into the air as she could and run through the bit trying to bolt.

The fourth or fifth time, I got off and walked home. Because she's coming off an injury, I can't be fighting with her, letting her act up and put strain on that leg. We got home and I promptly threw the Western saddle and some draw reins on her to make her stop flipping her nose on me. No such luck - now she just tucks her dang chin to her chest and STILL leans on the bit.

This is the type of horse who will put her nose to the ground trying to lean on the bit. If you loop your reins around the horn, she will stand for extended periods of time leaning ALL of her weight against the bit with her mouth open.

I understand this is a training issue. I understand this is a "seat" issue. But HOW do I even BEGIN to resolve it when I can't even get her attention? Shay-las mom suggested I throw her in a hackamore and that's COMPLETELY besides the point - in a hackamore or even a HALTER, I have total control over her. She has a serious bit issue. I've had her teeth checked. My only other option is to slap a curb in her and make her start listening, but then all she's going to do is point that nose sky high and act like I'm beating her.

I'm so frustrated, I don't even know how to BEGIN re-schooling her to stop being a cow about the bit. I suppose I don't NEED to, I was thinking of maybe trying a bitless bridle on her, since she responds so well in a halter.

Not having an actual RIDING ring to school her in doesn't help. Once she was in the draw reins, we were doing leg yielding for about a mile at a trot and it didn't help - even as she's leg yielding, she's yanking on her bit.

Any suggestions would be great. If someone needs a vid to see how extreme this is and maybe point out what I'm doing wrong, I'm sure I could provide that today.


----------



## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

If you insist on riding in a snaffle at least try a running martingale. Honestly if gives you far more leverage, you will have double the pull of the plain snaffle. If you can borrow one give it a try. It hurts nothing and maybe, just maybe you might find it works??
Next how about a curb, any curb with a chain and don't be afraid to use it to set her down. Again you have nothing to loose. Be soft but when you ask for a halt don't be afraid to get mad and set her down hard. Teach her a little respect.
As for going bitless?? I think that is a bad idea, bad idea.
I would love to take her on a ride with you watching.:lol::lol:


----------



## heyycutter (Sep 26, 2009)

i agree about the running martingale, i could see that helping a lot


----------



## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

You can go bitless if you want. It won't do any damage or cause problems in any "future" home because I know you're keeping her until she dies. =]

If you want to keep going with the bit, I would wait to ride or have any more battles until she's back in shape from her time off, that way you don't have to worry about stopping mid-fight because her leg isn't strong enough yet. So stick her in the halter or the lunge line to get her back in shape. Then when you do go back to battling with the bit, I would bit her up. And if you have to keep using a stronger bit on her, then so be it. You don't have to be strong with it unless you want to be, and at least you won't have to worry about being unprepared for a blow up. But like RiosDad said, haul her *** to the ground if you have to. Being an Arab, she'll probably think you killed her, but after you haul her down the one time, you should be able to ask her more nicely the next time. Good luck!

Oh, and yes the running martingale could definitely help. =]


----------



## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

She's been ridden most of her life in a running martingale and it's almost helped quite a bit - she doesn't stop leaning, but at least I can control her. The idea was to get away from gadgets.

I think you're all right - and RiosDad, I'd LOVE to see you get on her and set the spinny witch down a peg or two. riccil0ve I think you are 100% right - I need to just be riding her in her usual hackamore and tiedown at least until her leg is better to keep her sane, and then pull out the stops when she's 100%. And hopefully I have a dry field to work her in.

Now is not the time to be picking my battle, I should have realized that. Now is just about getting her back in shape any way necessary. I'll fight this battle with her in summer. :lol:


----------



## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Also consider a three corner or triangle snaffle; it can be very useful in the situation you describe. It doesn't have to be severe; but the thin edge really discourages the grabbing the bit and yanking. 

It's not a bit I would ride a horse in long term; but it might get you through this frustrating period of legging her back up. 

I tried to find a photo to post and couldn't; essentially the mouthpiece is triangle shaped and the sharp edge at the point of the triangle points to the back of the horse's mouth. If they're not lugging or yanking, it's effect is the same as a regular snaffle, but it they do want to lug, yank or brace, they have to grab hold of that sharp edge. They decide pretty quickly they don't want to do that. It's great behavior modificaton because they associate the negative result with their behavior, not with an action or response by the rider. 

I've always had one in my tack box, and I've lent it out dozens of time. Again, not a bit that you ride in long term; but great for nipping this behavior in the bud.


----------



## Seahorseys (Nov 14, 2009)

Honestly, what is a horse's intent in doing that? What are they trying to say? It goes against what I've encountered with my mare, she usually does everything she can to keep herself comfortable, or find her way out of something that is uncomfortable. I can't imagine how frustrating it is when they seem to be pushing themselves further into a potentially painful situation instead of looking for ways to find relief. Gosh, I don't know how I would be able to progress with Fri's training, as I rely on that quite often. As far as the similarities I'm experiencing with my own arab mare, we are currently getting her to release her shoulder and neck tension by concentrating on alot of lateral flexion. It seems like the hindquarters want so badly to work correctly, but she physically does not know how to release and carry her front legs quite yet, so from shoulder to toe she is quite straight, and I'm trying to get her to realize that it is far more advantageous to move without so much tension in that area. It's funny how horses develop their own way of moving, ways that are not beneficial to their whole way of moving and self carriage, and sometimes it seems like it is the equivalent of bad posture in humans. It seems like you can employ new bits, tack and so forth to keep the situation at bay, but the problem may lie in her bio-mechanics? From all your posts I've read about you and her it seems like she wouldn't be doing this in a resistant mindset, but I could be wrong. I would love to see the video.


----------



## Seahorseys (Nov 14, 2009)

Oh and I believe the bit maura is referring to is also called a "knife-edge" snaffle?


----------



## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

When you lunge her in a bit ( I assume with side reins) ...what does she do?


----------



## Wallaby (Jul 13, 2008)

I don't really have anything super helpful to say aside from kinda commiserating. 

Lacey used to do a similar thing. She would be "light" on the bit most of the time, but she'd lean on it if I let her. I ended up just switching her to a bitless bridle, which I was totally skeptical about to begin with, and it actually seems like that's just what she needed. 
She's much lighter in it and she seems a lot more comfortable with it. For instance, she won't drink water with a bit in her mouth and on long rides/rides in the heat (she couldn't seem to figure out how to suck water in around the bit, she'd try but all the water would come back out of her mouth), she needs to drink! And I can't just be hopping off all the time to remove her bridle so she'll drink, bitless solved that. =D She also reaches for it with her nose when I go to bridle her, something she never did/still doesn't do when I bit her.
The other plus about it is that I can haul her back on her butt if necessary in it (once was enough for her, haha) which I could not do in a snaffle without having her freak out like I was killing her. There have also been some situations, like on Thursday when my lovely lady got a little excited and forgot that she was not a war horse thundering across the desert, that I would have been, imo, royally screwed if I had been riding her in a snaffle since she had her head way up in the air.
I guess basically what I'm saying is look into bitless options, if she does really well in a hack and in a halter. There are some pretty cheap bitless attachments that you can get and attach to your normal bridle to try out different styles and see how she reacts if you don't want to commit to something expensive on the off chance she'll have an issue. 

If she's always had this issue with the bit, maybe her mouth is conformed in such a way that carrying the bit is uncomfortable...?
Personally, I like to choose battles I know I can win. My horse and I have a partnership and part of our partnership is that I let her have some things her way (in our case, the bitless bridle, since I really prefer the look of a horse with a bit in it's mouth). That works well for us. I know that if I keep trying to do it my way and keep her in a bit, neither of us will be happy and both of us will "lose".

Good luck to you both! =)


----------



## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

It takes two to play this game. She can't lean if you don't give her something to lean against.


----------



## SeWHC (Jul 1, 2009)

Perhaps switch from a french link to a single joint snaffle? With a french link, if she leans, it won't really pinch at all because it is so soft. At least with a regular snaffle there will be a point where she'll lean so far it will pinch her tongue and jab the roof of her mouth. Not that you should intentionally jab her with it, but it is pretty much just passive correction... like if a horse goes to nip at you and you just let them run their own head into your elbow or knuckle. 

I'd do this before I'd ever put a twisted/knife snaffle in her mouth.


----------



## BlueEyedBeauty (Dec 16, 2009)

my horse was very very very bad about leaning on the bit, and i tried every bit i could without getting harsh. Until recently, What we did was put a small copper twisted wire snaffle in her mouth and put pressure on it until she would bend her pole and give into the pressure. at first it was small amounts of time AS SOON as she took her weight off the bit we released pressure and gave her TONS of praise. then you slowly start asking for her to give into the pressure for a little longer each time before you let the pressure off. Once she had the concept of giving into pressure we moved up to a thicker wire and repeated the same process of making her bend at the pole and give into pressure. We did this over and over until she was able to give into pressure in a plane snaffle without a problem. Don't get me wrong it is a draining process and in the beginning seemed completely hopeless but now she gives to pressure and is much more sensitive to cues given with the bit. I am sure this method may be a bit controversial but I have personally seen amazing results! Best of luck!<3



PS: The reason this works is because you literally make it painful to lean on the bit to long, Once it starts to hurt for her to lean she will start thinking of ways to get free from the pressure in her mouth and as soon as the light bulb to bend her pole goes off is when you let go of the reins and PRIASE, if you do end up trying this after you have put pressure in her mouth DO NOT let go until she bends at the pole!!!!!! giving up on it if she misbehaves will only show her thats what it takes to get you to give up! 

I realize this is probably a terrible explanation as it is late and I am not fully awake lol. But if you have any questions please let me know i would love to see someone else feel as good as i did to regain control and be able to move on to bigger and better things


----------



## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

I agree with Mercedes.

I really don't think this is a bit problem. There's something missing in your communication, and actually, with her in recovery, I think it's a good time to go back to square 1. Like, how does she lead?


----------



## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

I absolutely agree that there's an underlying training problem here; and I am not a person that believes that tack of any kind is the total solution. However, in certain, limited circumstances, tack along with behavior modification/training can be part of the solution. 

Normally, if I had a horse that lugged, leaned and braced on the bit; I'd be doing a lot of flatwork with a lot of transitions; putting the horse on a circle and pushing off my inside leg onto the outside rein and "springing" the horse off the inside rein. I'd also include lots of hill work to get them working correctly off their hind end, and maybe include some ground driving or lunging in a surcingle and cavesson. 

But the OP has stated the horse is coming back into work after an injury, she doesn't have a ring to ride in, the horse is up and excited, and she's trying to hack down the road, and the leaning and bracing is creatiing an unsafe situation. 

That's why, in this limited situation, I think a bit that discourages the behavior is *part* of the solution. Because the sound, solid, tried and true classical solution isn't an option for this rider at this time.

The OP needs a way to hack her horse down the road while legging back up that's safe for both of them and hopefully less frustrating. The triangle snaffle may work or it may not. And as I've stated previously, it's not a bit you should ride in consistently. I'm just saying it may be worth a try to get her through this difficult period.


----------



## SilverSpur (Mar 25, 2010)

Mercedes said:


> It takes two to play this game. She can't lean if you don't give her something to lean against.



this what i was going to say. it would be very interesting to see the vid, and it would also help with giving advice on the problem.


----------



## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

If you give her her head, she will trot/canter off. She does NOT want to walk right now. I understand this is a training problem and one I'm working to resolve, but that essentially is the problem right now - trying to re-school her to relax and be happy walking when she's energetic and to be respecting me, but also trying to be cautious of her leg.

95% of the time, I can walk this horse on a loose rein. It's not like she's "always crazy". She just hasn't had the consistant work lately due to her ongoing leg problems, and without having a coach or a proper place to ride, I find myself at a loss and frustrated.

Side reins - she does the same thing. If she's not going with her nose flipped sky high, she's bracing on the bit as hard as she can. She literally will NOT tolerate a contact - that's essentially what it boils down to. She's either evading it by flipping her nose past a point of control, or bracing into it to start a tug-o-war battle with me to get her way.

I think at this point, taking her out in her hackamore is the best idea. She has a respect for it, and I can ride her on a generally loose rein because she knows that chain will dig in if she doesn't behave and she dislikes it. Right now the bigger concern is getting her back in shape, and THEN concentrating on her schooling. I guess I'm just at a loss as to how to even begin to train her when she's so busy yanking on the bit.

She essentially has to re-learn respect for the bit - she's actually twice as silly with a bit in her mouth because she KNOWS she doesn't have to listen to me. A rope halter across her sensitive nose or a chain under her sensitive chin and she smartens up immediately and doesn't even test the waters because she knows there is a consequence to misbehaving. With the snaffle, she doesn't care two wits and actually seems to revel in bracing against it.

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll keep you updated when I hopefully start schooling her again in the paddock come summer. As a side note, I may be looking into a proper boarding facility at this point, so fingers crossed I may actually be able to WORK my horses instead of letting them go to hell without proper facilities.


----------



## NittanyEquestrian (Mar 3, 2009)

My gelding did this. He'd rather brace and fall over than give to direct pressure on his face. While I agree that bits are not generally the answer sometimes they can help you find the question and then the answer. My gelding was protecting a weak back and didn't know how or what I was asking him to do when I applied direct rein pressure. He couldn't raise his poll, tuck his nose and raise his back no matter what I or anyone else tried without a lot of force and he still leaned which made his tucked neck pointless. I put him in a tom thumb run of the mill training bit that had a place for a direct rein and a curb rein. Looked like this http://www.davlynrodeoequipment.com/_themes/main/davlyn/images/25-1755.jpg. Then I rode him in it like a pelham with two sets of reins. When he leaned he got the curb, when he didn't I rode with the top rein. It takes a little practice but isn't that hard to ride with both reins. It worked like a charm and he is now going nice and light and doing upper level movements. You need a bit that is fixed and the shanks aren't too long nor too short. A true pelham isn't fixed and they can get easily confused and find it easier to evade the curb and brace on the bit. I also recommend using a plain leather curb strap under it. This will teach her that the bit pressure if she leans on it will put the same pressure under her chin as the hackamore. Take what she already listens to and use it against her and for you. Eventually she will equate any bit with the curb and chin pressure and you can start experimenting with bits that lack the curb and are more suited to your style of riding. I think this might be more of a fitness problem exacerbating a training problem than a true training problem but it's hard to tell from an internet post. Regardless of what you try and what works for you, Good Luck! And keep us posted!


----------



## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

Have you tried one rein stopping and disengaging her every time you stop? I think it would make it harder for her to brace when her neck is turned, she would have to reposition her weight and if you kept her hind end moving around her leg, she could not do this.

Pretty much what I am saying is that instead of using two reins to stop her, use one. Give your seat and verbal cues to stop, then loosen one rein and tighter the otherm bend her neck , move her butt until she stops. Then let up. If she moves, bend her again. Switch sides every time you do it... That's just what I would do given your circumstances. It makes it harder for her to flip her nose too, since she would essentially have to straighten her neck back out to really do it with any leverage. 

I also agree with Maura, try the triangle bit for now, just to discourage her form bracing. this coupled with the bending should at least trip her up for a bit until you can get her in shap enough to really get on her butt.


----------



## RedHawk (Jun 16, 2008)

I don't know if this will be helpful in your situation, but it works with my ottb. When we ride in one of the resting paddocks, which are huge, he gets it into his head that its hoon time and switches into race horse mode, putting his head down to brace on the bit and just charges ahead. I've found the one-rein stop is really useful for correcting this.
If he starts ignoring me/the bit I'll ask once nicely, once hard and then I'll pull him around in a one rein stop. Once his feet are still and he has softened to the bit I'll let the rein out, but he has to stand still for a few seconds until I ask him to move off. And then its just repeat, repeat, repeat, at the walk, then trot, then canter. 
Hope this is helpful!


----------



## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

She pulls. You drop your reins. Let her fall on her head it'll teach her a good lesson. As Mercedes said, she can't pull against nothing 

If she goes to take off, spin her with one rein, take hold and yank it to you chest and run her in a circle until she calms down. Then ask again with no rein. Takes off, spin her. Give her a disincentive to run on you. 

You could go the other way if you're brave enough and if she wants to take off, let her. Kick her in the guts and run her flat out till she's pooped, then ask her to come back to walk and if she doesn't come back, kick her and run her again. She'll realise that when she takes to option to walk, life is a lot more comfortable.

Just a different way of thinking about it rather than leaping straight at saying throw a martingale on her... as this will not really alleviate the problem, you will still be pulling against her which will still give her something to lean against, obviously.

Particularly if you've put her in draw reins and she's learnt to suck back to evade. That is a hell of a problem to resolve if she gets into that habit so I would definitely stay away from anything that is intended to 'get/keep her head down'.


----------



## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

The only problem with that Kayty is that the horse is recovering from injury. Everyone posted the martingale and stronger bit as strictly _temporary_ until the mare gains enough fitness to really be worked like you suggest.


----------



## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

This is an arab mare. Not a big horse. She is ridden in a french link snaffle and she is uncontrolable?? I seem to have that straight?

How hard can she possibley be?? Get that french link out of her, I much prefer a straight solid mouth piece and a running martingale. The martingale does nothing UNTIL she throws her head up and tried to escape the bit through hi headedness. Unless you have tried on don't knock it until you have. The running martingale does nothing unless it is needed and then suddenly the martingale doubles the force of the pull giving you a big advantage.
Neck is the curb bit like I already suggested. The horse can not escape by lifting her head. The curb strap makes sure of that.

These problems stem in the beginning by no respect for the bit. A horse needs to respect the bit, teach her respect and if you have to hurt her to get respect so be it.
These problems do not exist in my world because I don't let them escilate to that point. The minute I see a horse disrespecting the bit I teach it respect.
You do not keep a horse light, respectfull by riding all the time in the gentlest bit you can find. Even the best trained horses need tune ups a regular intervals.
If that mare were to lean on me with say the STRIAGHT solid snaffle I AND a running martingale I would hit her with everything I had in my legs, my back my arms and set her right back on her haunches, yell at her and then quickly release. She would learn respect, learn not to lean of me, learn not to run through anything I am riding in.

I love riding horses like this, one time only but I love teaching manners.:lol::lol:
She is little, you can overpower her with a little help.
Teach her respect.


----------



## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

Seems to me if there is that much worry over the injured leg, the horse shouldn't be ridden in the first place. 

Either the leg is healed or it's not. If it's not, get off her. If it is, then start training her. As I understand it, this is not a 'new' problem, but an old one that has been aggravated by time off and a horse who's energetic and enthusiastic to get back at it.

You don't have to run her into the ground, but if a little trot or canter is going to risk the leg...um...yeah, get off her.

I also understand footing is an issue. Again, if that's a problem, then simply wait another week or two or whatever until the footing is appropriate. All this does is give the leg more time to heal.

Temporary has a way of becoming permanent, especially when that temporary solution compounds the original issue by increasing bracing and evasion, and building inverted muscling.


----------



## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

RiosDad - *le sigh* :-(


----------



## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Mercedes said:


> RiosDad - *le sigh* :-(


I know a big SIGH but I run into crap like this all the time.. People who just can't hand a problem and are ready to sell. I get on a problem horse and it goes away for me right then. Honestly these problems don't exist on any of my horses. Sigh all you want. If I could get on her she would behave in short order and I do have soft soft hands until the occassion arrises that I am not so soft.


----------



## NittanyEquestrian (Mar 3, 2009)

I disagree. I would never put a horse that had been off for any length of time "straight back into training". And if she does pick a fight about the head and does a million circles, makes her run it out, let her fall on her face in a loose rein, etc she's just asking for another injury because the horse isn't FIT enough in general to perform these things. I think the leg might not be 100% but I think she knows enough to know when it is ok to ride and when not. That being said it would be easy to injure the horse in some other way by jumping in with both feet. Half the battle is probably the amount of energy and the lack of condition. You can't take an unfit horse that has been confined and expect them to be light and perfect when you get back on them. That being said, I think she does need to address the issue since it appears to always be lurking no matter what. I just don't think right now when the horse is out of shape, recovering from injury and the ground/footing is bad that she should use some of the more elaborate and stressful techniques. There is nothing wrong with using a different bit temporarily to leg her up and then switching back to the snaffle and forcing the issue in that. And maybe the snaffle is just too light of a bit for her. Maybe she is just a horse that needs a little bigger bit. A loose ring french link is just inviting a horse to lean because it makes it practically easier to lean on it than it does to give to it. Once you get your horse light in another bit you can switch back to the french link and see. If your horse goes great in one bit and leans on the french link still then maybe it's just not the right bit for them. There is a reason there are so many different types of snaffles and bits. Not one bit works for every horse.


----------



## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> I know a big SIGH but I run into crap like this all the time.. People who just can't hand a problem and are ready to sell. I get on a problem horse and it goes away for me right then. Honestly these problems don't exist on any of my horses. Sigh all you want. If I could get on her she would behave in short order and I do have soft soft hands until the occassion arrises that I am not so soft.


So, let them sell. 'This' isn't training. It's called put something that'll create a whole lot of pain in the mouth and then yank your hardest until the horse is so afraid of the hand that they tie themselves up in a pretzel trying to figure out a way to evade the slightest contact.

So yeah, I am going to sigh, because this will take me a year to fix in the horse, and I'll still have teach the person how to ride.


----------



## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Mercedes said:


> So, let them sell. 'This' isn't training. .


If not training what is it?? I have fixed a number of horses for people with a problem and they end up keeping the horse. I promise that any horse I fix will not be sent to you for retraining.
I don't have my horses mouth tied shut, I don't have any contact while riding, my reins droop and I don't have my legs on him trying to get him to work under himself.
We both relax, enjoy the outing, enjoy the scenery and I escape into a dream world and just enjoy.
At the same time he will be as light , as responsive, brave and as enjoyable to be around as anything you will create.
One doesn't need to be so serious about riding, get out and enjoy.


----------



## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

NittanyEquestrian said:


> I disagree. I would never put a horse that had been off for any length of time "straight back into training".


Okay, hold up. Just what kind of training do you think is being talked about? An hour of intense flatwork? A 10 mile gallop? Give me a break. Every time you get on a horse you're training it, good or bad.

If the horse is sound, get on with it. That doesn't mean to work the horse beyond its current level of fitness. And I do agree a multitude of circles isn't where I'm headed...unless it's a 50m circle. All the training on this horse can be done at the walk for now...and probably should be since we have some very basic control and footing issues going on.

If the horse isn't sound, then why are we even here?



> A loose ring french link is just inviting a horse to lean because it makes it practically easier to lean on it than it does to give to it.


No it doesn't. More horses will lean on a snaffle then a french link because of the painful nutcracker effect.

All she has to do is put the mare on the outside rein and ask for flexion with the inside rein. Do a bunch of easy suppling exercises, use groundpoles to distract the mare into watching where she's going...and walk.

And if that's not working because the rider can't stop pulling on the horse's mouth and giving her something to lean on, then put the mare in longeing cavesson and longe her (not in tiny 20m/10m circles...but in straight lines, HUGE circles and sweeping lines).


----------



## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> If not training what is it??


I told you what it was, but if you'd like me to pick a word for you: ignorance.



> I have fixed a number of horses for people with a problem and they end up keeping the horse.


You haven't fixed anything. You've simply shown already ignorant people how to yank their horse's face off.


----------



## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

I have to agree with Mercedes on the french link bit...my mare uses one and just recently started learning collection, but it's coming veeeery slowly and she sometimes leans on the bit as well. But I have a very capable trainer who I talked to about it, and I even asked her whether I should try a bit that's more harsh. She told me no, that this will work fine, we just need to teach her not to lean on the bit, by doing exactly what Mercedes was saying (putting her on the outside rein, asking for flexion, etc). 

OP, I will let you know if I stumble on any breakthroughs, but what I am doing with my trainer to get my mare off the bit is what Mercedes said above. She also told me that when she hangs to "ask" her to get off the bit with little pulses and if she doesn't respond, then make them bigger and bigger until she does (all the while releasing after each pulse...if you just pull and pulse and never release it makes it very easy for them to grab and hang on the bit).


----------



## NittanyEquestrian (Mar 3, 2009)

In an earlier post about reconditioning horses Mercedes you told them, and I'm parphrasing here, to be conscious that a horse can easily lose muscle tone and it is difficult for them to carry a rider and that it takes weeks of short exercise sessions where you don't do a whole lot of training until they get fit again. But you're expecting a horse that has been off work for some time AND recovering from an injury to be put back into work doing circles and trying to get it supple, etc. When you yourself said that you don't expect them to retain all that suppleness, muscle tone and ability coming out of any kind of inactivity period even when injury was not an issue. I agree that you shouldn't ride an unsound horse, but I don't think that treating a recently recovered horse like a 100% sound, fit horse is going to help this situation. 
Also, a french link snaffle has two joints. Which negates the nutcracker effect. a regular single jointed snaffle does have the nutcracker effect, which is what I was encouraging her to switch to. Also, she already said that she couldn't ride in a ring or do huge circles in fields because of weather/footing and lack of facilities. She stated she was doing road work and hacking, which I'm assuming was on narrow trails or somewhere that she couldn't actually school circles and figures. Not everyone has perfect facilities or able to provide them so things need to be modified and advice changed when certain training techniques cannot be employed. 
And from my understanding this is not a steering or picking up the feet issue, it's a hyper and bracey horse. So allowing her to just wander around with no contact is not going to even come close to fixing this problem. She is fine with no contact, but wants to jig/trot or canter. You apply pressure she braces and leans. Unless you can make bracing uncomfortable for her she's not going to stop doing it no matter how many times you attempt to flex her with your inside leg and outside hand. The only way you will get her to drop her poll this way is to force her into a false, hollow frame. Which I'm assuming you don't condone either. So I'm not sure how circling her and trotting her over poles in no contact in her current bit is going to fix a bracing issue. She isn't bracing against strong contact, she's bracing against ALL contact. 

I also agree with Riosdad. Sometimes horses with a learned behavior that has resulted in them being hard mouthed and unresponsive need set on their *** and they need to be made to realize that the wrong behavior hurts! I'm not saying yank on her face or apply constant harsh pressure. But when I ask a horse to slow and they fall on their face and try to grab the bit, I sit deep and I tug back. Short sharp tugs in a mild bit works but a curb or stronger snaffle bit gets them to stop leaning in a hurry. I also agree that this doesn't fix the problem, it just teaches them not to lean. THEN you go about suppling them, getting them light and responsive to seat and leg, etc. 

But you have to stop the leaning and make that 100% not acceptable before you can even think about getting them soft and responsive. Because any horse that is leaning can't get their weight back to their haunches and they aren't moving correctly so you can't drive them up into contact and the bit if there's nothing behind you to drive forward. I also think some people get confused between a heavy horse that wants you to carry their heads for them and a horse that is actually bracing against the bit. A bracer isn't going to be "fixed" by the average or even above-average rider employing dressage principles to them. At this point they are so far off the training scale that you can't expect them to, nor CAN THEY move and respond to aids like they are supposed to. They will probably stop bracing as hard on a circle because it's harder to do so but they will go right back to doing it when you start doing straight lines and tracking along the rail. Doing constant circles is no more of a fix than adding a different bit. You need to change the whole picture and then fine tune it after they learn the big lessons.


----------



## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

I would just like to say that Macabre is anything but ignorant Mercedes. I don't see how a person being frustrated at something and asking for help and advice makes them ignorant. More Mercedes name calling and inferiority complex IMO... All talk and argument, no actual useful advice... but what do I know.

I do think this a problem that warrants a temporary solution, just something to get you by until she is fit enough to withstand some intense training. Pick your poison Macabre, be it bitless, harsher bit, tie down, whatever. Just something to keep you both sane until you can ride the crap out of her. But I also thing it might be as Nittany says, she might just require a bigger bit, if she rides great in a curb, why fight her in a snaffle? Dont pigeon yourself into a hole because you prefer a certain bit, if it stops her fighting it, just switch bits and enjoy your happy obedient rides.


----------



## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

NittanyEquestrian said:


> In an earlier post about reconditioning horses Mercedes you told them, and I'm parphrasing here, to be conscious that a horse can easily lose muscle tone and it is difficult for them to carry a rider and that it takes weeks of short exercise sessions where you don't do a whole lot of training until they get fit again. But you're expecting a horse that has been off work for some time AND recovering from an injury to be put back into work doing circles and trying to get it supple, etc.


It was someone else who said circles for this horse. I clearly stated unless it's a 50m (METER) circle it's not what I'd be doing for this horse based on the information provided by the OP.

And yes, suppling exercises. In my earlier post (which was in another thread all together) I also clearly stated that said horse would be doing a stretching routine practically from the beginning. What is stretching? It is suppling work.



> I agree that you shouldn't ride an unsound horse, but I don't think that treating a recently recovered horse like a 100% sound, fit horse is going to help this situation.


I've done no such thing. 



> Also, a french link snaffle has two joints. Which negates the nutcracker effect. a regular single jointed snaffle does have the nutcracker effect, which is what I was encouraging her to switch to.


I know the difference, and I'm telling you, the nutcracker effect tends to cause far more leaning on the bit, PLUS head tossing, then the french link. 



> Also, she already said that she couldn't ride in a ring or do huge circles in fields because of weather/footing and lack of facilities.


And I said, she shouldn't be doing anything then until the footing was more appropriate.



> She stated she was doing road work and hacking, which I'm assuming was on narrow trails or somewhere that she couldn't actually school circles and figures. Not everyone has perfect facilities or able to provide them so things need to be modified and advice changed when certain training techniques cannot be employed.


That's no excuse for setting the horse up for failure. 



> And from my understanding this is not a steering or picking up the feet issue, it's a hyper and bracey horse. So allowing her to just wander around with no contact is not going to even come close to fixing this problem. She is fine with no contact, but wants to jig/trot or canter.


I didn't say she shouldn't have contact. I said she should stop giving the horse something to lean on. Big difference.



> You apply pressure she braces and leans. Unless you can make bracing uncomfortable for her she's not going to stop doing it no matter how many times you attempt to flex her with your inside leg and outside hand.


She'll stop bracing and leaning when she's put on the outside rein and asked to flex. Of course, this would require the OP knows how to put her there and ride her there. There's much 'giving' to the exercise, as well, to get her into the outside rein requires the inside hind to step forward and center body, which is going to 'lift' the front end...as in...can't be leaning if you're coming up in front. Now before you carry on with more assumptions...I'm not talking about GP engagement here. Everything is relative.



> The only way you will get her to drop her poll this way is to force her into a false, hollow frame. Which I'm assuming you don't condone either. So I'm not sure how circling her and trotting her over poles in no contact in her current bit is going to fix a bracing issue. She isn't bracing against strong contact, she's bracing against ALL contact.


She's already in a false and hollow frame, and I've said nothing about the poll. Haven't said a word about the horse's head position, other than to ask for some flexion. If she does it (puts the horse on the outside rein and asks for some flexion during her suppling exercises) I know the horse's head/poll and body will be exactly where it should be for the horse's level of condition.

And again, I wasn't the one who said circling...and I didn't say trot over poles. I said WALK. And I said to use the poles as a distraction to the behavior to get the horse to watch where she was going. You don't even have to walk over the poles to do that, it can just be weaving between WIDELY spread poles...which can be done in a driveway. It's just to get the mind of horse and rider on something other than the behavior so that they can stop fighting with each other.



> I also agree with Riosdad. Sometimes horses with a learned behavior that has resulted in them being hard mouthed and unresponsive need set on their *** and they need to be made to realize that the wrong behavior hurts!


And you think that gives them a soft mouth?!? Every horse that gets yanked on the face like that, from then on no longer will seek contact, which means they will not 'accept' contact as the third element of the trianing scale. Which means, they don't ever engage and come through into the rider's hands, ever again. They brace, and they evade, and they suck back behind the aids. And they all need to be retrained after that's been done to them.

It in no way creates a 'light' horse. You're all being fooled.



> I'm not saying yank on her face or apply constant harsh pressure. But when I ask a horse to slow and they fall on their face and try to grab the bit, I sit deep and I tug back. Short sharp tugs in a mild bit works but a curb or stronger snaffle bit gets them to stop leaning in a hurry.


Have you never bothered to understand why they do that? It's because they've lost their balance. You getting all over their faces doesn't teach them how to regain it, it just teaches them that they can't trust the rider's rein aids.



> But you have to stop the leaning and make that 100% not acceptable before you can even think about getting them soft and responsive. Because any horse that is leaning can't get their weight back to their haunches and they aren't moving correctly so you can't drive them up into contact and the bit if there's nothing behind you to drive forward.


The leaning is a RESULT of the haunches trailing and can NOT be fixed by yanking on the mouth. It (the leaning) can ONLY be fixed by engaging the hindquarter. The leaning WILL STOP, when you fix the haunches. You don't fix the leaning and then work on the haunches IF you want a horse that doesn't evade, brace, and goes behind the aids.



> I also think some people get confused between a heavy horse that wants you to carry their heads for them and a horse that is actually bracing against the bit. A bracer isn't going to be "fixed" by the average or even above-average rider employing dressage principles to them. At this point they are so far off the training scale that you can't expect them to, nor CAN THEY move and respond to aids like they are supposed to.


Pardon? 

Of course a horse that's bracing is off the training scale, that's why you'd go back to the beginning...forward before anything else, and then...rhythm, suppleness...CONTACT (as in 'acceptance' of contact) and so on.

Forward alone will do wonders to get a horse to stop leaning.



> Doing constant circles is no more of a fix than adding a different bit. You need to change the whole picture and then fine tune it after they learn the big lessons.


I agree with this. That's why I said...put the horse on the outside rein, ask her to flex, put some poles down to get her looking where she's going, and work on some simple suppling exercises at the walk.


----------



## Rule of Reason (Feb 11, 2010)

Mercedes, just so you don't feel like a voice crying in the wilderness -- I'm with you 100%.


----------



## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

Honeysuga said:


> I would just like to say that Macabre is anything but ignorant Mercedes. I don't see how a person being frustrated at something and asking for help and advice makes them ignorant. More Mercedes name calling and inferiority complex IMO... All talk and argument, no actual useful advice... but what do I know.


Put your penis back in its sheath. I didn't say Macabre was ignorant. I said what RiosDad called training...as in, put a harsher bit in, kick the horse forward, and then yank with all your might was ignorant.

Secondly, I gave plenty of advice, but you're too busy having a personal issue with me to be able to read and comprehend. Haven't you had that classroom lesson yet?


----------



## pieinthesky (Mar 12, 2010)

I use a waterford on my mare who leans. I have to hold her back, or she runs away with me. Very green and over sensative. Lots of half halts with your abdomin also help.


----------



## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

Rule of Reason said:


> Mercedes, just so you don't feel like a voice crying in the wilderness -- I'm with you 100%.


Well, thank you for that. Some days the wall seems insurmountable. LOL!


----------



## SeWHC (Jul 1, 2009)

I agree with mercedes as well. I don't know why you take so much heat... Ice been online participating in large myspace groups for almost 7 years.... I rarely consider your tone demeaning or rude.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Rule of Reason said:


> Mercedes, just so you don't feel like a voice crying in the wilderness -- I'm with you 100%.


Another vote with Mercedes.

Riosdad - how is it EVERY horse that comes to you has an issue you fix as soon as you climb on? As Mercedes said - it's often the RIDER that needs the fixing. (Although I am not sure forcing a horse to do something is training.)


----------



## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

mls said:


> Another vote with Mercedes.
> 
> Riosdad - how is it EVERY horse that comes to you has an issue you fix as soon as you climb on? As Mercedes said - it's often the RIDER that needs the fixing. (Although I am not sure forcing a horse to do something is training.)


Every horse that I am asked to ride is for a reason. It may be barn sour, a bucker, a run away, won't side pass, won't take a lead. There is always a problem otherwise they wouldn't need me. If your horse is so good why bother getting me to ride him??
So all the the above I can quickly ride right through. 
I have no fear, I know how to deal with all the above and quickly and efficently deal with it.
I agree all horse related problems are the rider. Again that is why people get me to ride their horses. They have a problem, I can ride through it.

I am not interested in a dressage horse, not in the least. I want one far more sensitive to my every wish. I have no desire to have a horse on the bit, I have no desire to push with my legs and pull with my hands. I don't even want to take the slack out of my reins. I want the horse to back off as the slack is coming on. I want him to stay behind the bit.
I value my elbows and tennis elbow can be a side effect of any effort you apply to the reins. 
I make horses, my own person horses so light that the reins can be attached my a simple thread and yet they will not break it.
I have soft hands because the horse knows that when I pick up the reins he is to respond. No head tossing , no fear but healthy respect. but most of all relaxation on both our parts on a nice moring outing.
People come to me, I don't often go to them . So if you have a problem with a horse rearing, spinning and bolting for home and you try everything and are ready to give up, come see me, I will even loan you my guy, watch learn and I honetly will spend no more then 5 seconds on a rear, spiin and bolt before the horse is going in the original direction with a light rein, no more then 5 seconds max before I am patting him and telling him he is a good boy.
Horses are not that strong, I only worry about the head, the body will follow.
Personally I have no use for a dressage horse. Reminds me of a merry go round, I want a working companion, not a circus horse


----------



## Dressage10135 (Feb 11, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> Every horse that I am asked to ride is for a reason. It may be barn sour, a bucker, a run away, won't side pass, won't take a lead. There is always a problem otherwise they wouldn't need me. If your horse is so good why bother getting me to ride him??
> So all the the above I can quickly ride right through.
> I have no fear, I know how to deal with all the above and quickly and efficently deal with it.
> I agree all horse related problems are the rider. Again that is why people get me to ride their horses. They have a problem, I can ride through it.
> ...


You have obviously never ridden a well trained dressage horse, thats all I can say.


----------



## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

mls said:


> Riosdad -Although I am not sure forcing a horse to do something is training.)


If you want a reliable horse, one that will do anything, go anywhere you need to use some force in your training. I supplied trained animals for the movie industry a few times and they don't want ruined shots because the animals didn't do as they are told, didn't like working in strange surroundings, strange sets.
I did 2 shows a week for years in front of audiences, was featured at a sportsman show for a week. I need reliable animals, ones that no matter what responded.
I still make the best horses around. In any barn they set the standard.


----------



## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> I am not interested in a dressage horse, not in the least. I want one far more sensitive to my every wish. I have no desire to have a horse on the bit, I have no desire to push with my legs and pull with my hands.


Where are you getting that idea from?

A dressage horse will go from a passage to a piaffe just by merely closing a pinky finger slightly. You can't get more sensitive than that.

And the whole push with legs, pull with hands...while it may seem like that, and while you may see some riders do that, that's not how a dressage horse is trained by someone knowledgeable.

I accept and understand your wants and needs in a horse, but I'm not feeling the love back. My issue with you in this thread is simply the unnecessary violence being inflicted on the horse's mouth because you don't seem open to the idea it can be achieved any other way, and you think it's creating something it's not.

And I'm not really sure where you get the impression that a horse is a robot, because only a robot could have the 'potential' to be "reliable animals, ones that no matter what responded"...in the context you meant that statement.


----------



## NittanyEquestrian (Mar 3, 2009)

Mercedes said:


> Temporary has a way of becoming permanent, especially when that temporary solution compounds the original issue by increasing bracing and evasion, and building inverted muscling.
> *How is getting them to stop leaning on the bit increasing bracing and evasion? The horse has inverted muscling from the bracing and evading. Any muscling they build from NOT bracing has to be an improvement. *
> Quote: I agree that you shouldn't ride an unsound horse, but I don't think that treating a recently recovered horse like a 100% sound, fit horse is going to help this situation.
> I've done no such thing.
> ...


----------



## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Mercedes 5 

Honeysuga 0

Riosdad 1

Nitty 1/2 (1/2 point taken off as the last post is unreadable.)

Now WHERE is that popcorn?


----------



## NittanyEquestrian (Mar 3, 2009)

Haha Spyder. It's hard to quote when there's already quotes and the same thing is being repeated every line by the person you're trying to quote. But I'm sure you got the general idea...

*Throws Spyder some Popcorn*


----------



## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

Drama, drama, drama.  Why don't you all just lay it on the table and measure already?

Macabre, do you remember this thread? http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/problem-arabs-48008/. I think it's basically the same problem, and if you go back and read some of the advice there, it may help you in this "new situation" as well. I was thinking about this at work, [I'm not a crazy obsessed freak, I start work at 4am and nobody else comes in until about 830, I have a lot of time to think, lol] and I have come up with several things that may be helpful.

Play with bits. As... um... someone on here said [lol] there are a ton of bits because not every horse likes the same one. So maybe you like the french link for whatever reason, but Zierra simply does not. For example, my mare is a complete terror in a broken bit. So I put her in a solid rubber snaffle, and she is a much better ride in it. I don't know what you have tried, but you can try a nice, fat snaffle, or a thinner one, or a curb, or a kimberwick, or a D-ring or eggbut or full-check or a roller or a copper-roller, etc etc. The list is endless. It could be as simple as she does not like the bit you have her in, or you haven't found the right bit for her yet.

You can also try putting her bridle on over her halter or hackamore or what have you, and start by just riding her with the halter, leaving the bit alone. Then you can slowly introduce contact with the bit, adding gentle pressure on the bit as you ask her to woah in the halter. The idea is to transition from halter to bit. This way, you do have the halter, that you already said she respects, to get her back in control if you have to.

My friend started taking lessons recently, and she was telling me something her instructor asked her to do with her horse [an Arab mix, go figure =P] when she gets into giraffe mode. I saw my friend do this on another friends horse who has very little training besides racing and it took him about two seconds to catch on. Her instructor says to slowly inch your hands forward and upward to encourage the head to come down. If her nose is in the air, she is uncontrollable, and this might encourage her to drop her nose so she is easier to handle. Physics, what goes up must come down. =]

Amidst all the drama, I find myself in between. On the butterfly and rainbows side, I do agree that you should be working on being supple. By that, I mean transitions, circles, serpentines, any crazy shape you can think of. The transitions can be as simple as walk to halt to back. You can also work on more lateral movement [you said you already were when she went on her tirade, yes?]. I wouldn't worry about where her head is [well, not too high, lol] and just work on getting her to move away from the aids. Eventually, she should drop her poll and collect up all on her onesie. =]

On the rough and tough he-man side, I do believe that horses have to have a healthy respect and, yes, even a little bit of fear, of things. I mean, think about it? Why don't you speed down the highway? Why don't you tell your ******* of a boss to eff off? Because you'll get in trouble. It's the respect and fear of the punishment that keeps you in line. If a horse has no fear or respect, it's pretty hard to work with them. I know, because my little one is fearless. It's really hard to do a lot of things with her because she simply isn't afraid of me or the things I throw at her. Not always literally, but figuratively. For example, if I need her to move her butt over, or get out of the way so I can throw hay, I can tap, poke, slap, punch, even kick her haunches and she hardly flips an ear at me. But she usually moves over graciously with the slightest tap of my dressage whip. My point is that you want to ask nicely, but sometimes, horses are just jerks, and they know what you want but just don't care because you don't have anything scary enough. Sometimes, you do need a scary bit to stop a known runaway. Sometimes, the horse knows that it can get away with murder in a particular bit, because they know you aren't packing enough power to make them stop. Regardless of what some may think, horses are HUGE, they are a LOT stronger, a LOT bigger, and when it comes down to it, we can't _make_ them do anything. For the most part, a good strong bit and a good yank startles them out of their reverie and brings them back down to earth.

Good luck, my dear!!

EDIT: Spyder, you sure are a funny one. =D


----------



## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Dressage10135 said:


> You have obviously never ridden a well trained dressage horse, thats all I can say.


People have asked me to take a turn around a dressage ring on a dressage horse. I certainy accept. I have been told they have wonderful mouths. That is what I base my opinion on.
A girl was high up in the dressage standing and after every lesson she would come out of the arena with sore hands, tired hands and arms from holding and sore legs from pushing.
I also live right next to a high end dressage barn with about 50 high end horses, Less then a 1/2 mile from me is another dutch warm blood farm with 44 horse in a pasture and again you couldn't give me one.
Can you honestly go for a good ride with just a hoola hoop ?? I find the hand position tiring and leading a horse with a hool a hoop is not comfortable. And we are talking about a 10 mile lope across country.


----------



## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Mercedes said:


> Where are you getting that idea from?
> 
> A dressage horse will go from a passage to a piaffe just by merely closing a pinky finger slightly. You can't get more sensitive than that.
> 
> .


I could care less about a piaffe. I want one that if asked will walk across a 30 inch concrete dam with a big drop on one side and rushing water on the other. I want a horse that trusts me enough to walk boldly onto this wall. I do NOT get off and lead. I can control more with my legs and if the horse goes over , so do I. I will bet my life on my horse.

You don't feel the love??? I don't like your references to me either.
I am soft , easy around horses until it is time to not be soft.

This comes from 50 years of riding , around boarding barns and seeing the stupidity that goes on around me.
I have also been a part time farrier for 24 years and have to deal with spoiled pukes.

The OP has a problem with an arab mare that suddenly acts up while riding. I would ride gentle and easy until the horse bolts , acts up however and then shut her down hard and fast and then release all pressure, praise her and carry on until the next eruption. That is how you get a good horse, not reasoning with them, take dressage lesson, pull this or that. A quick correction, a harsh correction and then go back to being soft and gentle. She will get the idea quickly. No dinking around.


----------



## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

ROFLMFAO. Keep it coming guys. This is awesome - some people see an arguement, and I just see five straight pages of available learning!

I'll definately be keeping everyone's advice in mind. As for running her, bad idea, I've tried this with Arabs before and it simply doesn't work. They WILL run until they drop. And they won't let you know they're hurt either, they'll just keep puffing along. The problem right now is to much running anyway - I spent my teenage years being a yahoo and using Zierra as my little racepony. 

She's obviously controllable, but I really don't want her bolting down a gravel road with an inverted frame when she's coming off several months of NO work. The leg itself is fine, her stamina and condition is the pits, and THIS is why I worry - strain on OTHER legs now that I've got this one dealt with. This mare will run and run and run and doesn't know the meaning of the word stop. Maybe if I rode her straight for 24 hours she MAY calm down, but I doubt it. She spends half her time galloping around the pasture for crying out loud, for no other reason then just because she can!

Anyway, I get what most of you are saying, I disagree with some of it based on some people assuming they know the exact situation, but enlightning and chock full of information regardless, so thanks again!


----------



## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Mercedes said:


> but I'm not feeling the love back..


 
Are you a guy or girl? If a guy you definitely will not feel the love:lol:

If a girl please send pictures and we will see:lol::lol:


The biggest thing I have going for me is people that see my horses, see how they work, how they respond and their impecable?? manners. They see the soft hands ,the response, the well trained animal.
How would you feel if you pulled in a barn yard and saw a horse completely without restraint, no halter, no lead rope, no nothing and all alone standing at the back of a truck with a saddle obviously dumped there. And then a guy came to the horse and told him he could go to his stall or told him to come with him and off walked the horse, in perfect control but with nothing touching the two.
Would you be impressed????
That's what works for me.


----------



## NittanyEquestrian (Mar 3, 2009)

First off, riccil0ve, I could hug you. You summed up what I've been trying to say, although in a more abstract way, since I started posting on this thread. 

Macabre, I applaud you for taking this as you are. Just because people disagree on how to solve a particular problem doesn't mean any of them are particularly wrong in their thinking or their training. Different strokes for different folks (and horses!). I do ask that when you get her sorted out and back to being a pleasure to ride please let the forum know what worked for you and her so that people can store it in their memory banks for further use. Or so that someone with a similar problem that has yet to add their $0.02 to the fray can also benefit from it. And on a side note...I let my gelding get away with bloody murder until I decided to make him grow up and behave himself and I'm still sorting out all the crap that I thought was a good idea or was right and it was not. So I feel your pain...hang in there and stay patient and she will come around. Although retraining whole muscle groups on a stubborn horse is it's own kind of purgatory...

Riosdad, I would let you on my horses in a flash but I don't ALWAYS agree with you. Doesn't mean I can't learn a thing or two from you or enjoy the fight every once in a while! P.S - If you're ever in Central Pa you and my gelding need to meet up. He's the king of "make me". 

Same to you Mercedes! I enjoy sparring and matching wits and knowledge with you. And of course learning as I am not as far into the dressage world as I would like to be at this point.


----------



## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

NittanyEquestrian said:


> First off, riccil0ve, I could hug you. You summed up what I've been trying to say, although in a more abstract way, since I started posting on this thread.
> 
> .


I second that. You summorized it very nicely.
Thank you


----------



## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

Spyder said:


> Mercedes 5
> 
> Honeysuga 0
> 
> ...


LOL! Yeah, I've been sitting back enjoying this one too. I just have two pieces of input. Like Mercedes said, a horse can't lean on what isn't there. Throw the contact away for a stride and take it back. Do it as many times as necessary to get your point across. RiosDad. I'm sorry, but your opinion of dressage does disclose some ignorance. Proper dressage has nothing to do with pulling on the reins.


----------



## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

For sure NE! This is definately my own fault for being a stupid teenager. Zierra has flawless ground manners, but in the saddle, I have to admit, I always thought it was fun to "race the boys" on my skinny little Arab that everyone made fun of and then whupped their butts! And now I have to pay for my reckless fun. I enjoy all avenues because not everything works for every horse - I've repeatedly tried the "drop the contact, grab the contact" method and it simply does not work for Zierra. She just points that nose sky high and evades that way. 

Anyway, feel free to keep it coming, I've thoroughly enjoyed it, everyone has valid points and everyone has experience, so I'll let you all know what finally works!


----------



## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

Yay! Hugs! =D


----------



## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

Mercedes said:


> *Put your penis back in its sheath*. I didn't say Macabre was ignorant. I said what RiosDad called training...as in, put a harsher bit in, kick the horse forward, and then yank with all your might was ignorant.


ROTFLMAO!!! :lol::lol::lol: Sorry guys...inappropriate, yes, but I literally laughed out loud at that one!


----------



## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

Is it just me, or does Riosdad like to brag an awful lot? ;-)


----------



## Dressage10135 (Feb 11, 2009)

Hoofprints in the Sand said:


> Is it just me, or does Riosdad like to brag an awful lot? ;-)


Thats exactly what I was thinking, it would be nice to see some proof. I mean, a man can only do so much right? But yet he has trained horses for movies, crosses 1 foot wide bridges with "rushing" waters at either side and can train any horse. He must not need any sleep :lol:


----------



## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> I could care less about a piaffe.


But you implied that dressage horse's weren't sensitive. I explained to you that they are VERY sensitive. Sensitive enough to go from passage to piaffe just by the rider closing a pinky finger. That's the point. You claimed something and I countered with a fact. 

I'm trying to tell you that you are seeing dressage in the wrong light. You've got a whole bunch of misconceptions about it.



> You don't feel the love??? I don't like your references to me either.
> I am soft , easy around horses until it is time to not be soft.


Okay, you can not claim to be soft and easy around horses when you purposely run them and then yank with all your might on their faces. That's called a contradiction. 

You can not claim to have soft hands with no contact when you've purposely bitted horses up so you could run them and then yank with all your might on their faces and left them standing shaking and fearful.

That's cruel and unusual punishment. Let me put a hunk a steal in your mouth, tie ropes at either ends and then tie the other ends to the bumper of my car, then stick you with a cattleprod until you're running at full speed, AND THEN I'll drive my car in the other direction until the rope pulls taut.



> I have also been a part time farrier for 24 years and have to deal with spoiled pukes.


So now the horses are spoiled pukes. :roll:



> The OP has a problem with an arab mare that suddenly acts up while riding. I would ride gentle and easy until the horse bolts , acts up however and then shut her down hard and fast and then release all pressure, praise her and carry on until the next eruption. That is how you get a good horse, not reasoning with them, take dressage lesson, pull this or that. A quick correction, a harsh correction and then go back to being soft and gentle. She will get the idea quickly. No dinking around.


*Le sigh* :lol:


----------



## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

*Ok I tied the pride lol*. I shouldn't have gotten so fired up, I will admit that for some reason or another I too love to get into it with Mercedes...we are just two BIG opinions who wont budge usually no matter what. I officially agree to disagree with you Mercedes from here on out, truce, white flag whatever hehe!

And I too believe Riccilove summed it up quite eloquently and plain and simply. I am glad you are absorbing whatever you can from this little game of monkey effn football, Macabre, and would love to hear any progress you are having with Zierra dearest.

I would like to add that I think Rio does brag quite a bit, but hey, he is a man with a lifetime of experience and success(according to him of course, but who are we to doubt him?) with horses to inflate that ego to the point that it is, I think he deserves to be as cocky as he wants...lol. Whereas I do see how some might find it annoying, we must remember he is only male. teehehe


----------



## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> Are you a guy or girl? If a guy you definitely will not feel the love:lol:
> 
> If a girl please send pictures and we will see:lol::lol:


Look at my avatar. And, I'm probably just down the road from you. :wink:



> The biggest thing I have going for me is people that see my horses, see how they work, how they respond and their impecable?? manners. They see the soft hands ,the response, the well trained animal.
> How would you feel if you pulled in a barn yard and saw a horse completely without restraint, no halter, no lead rope, no nothing and all alone standing at the back of a truck with a saddle obviously dumped there. And then a guy came to the horse and told him he could go to his stall or told him to come with him and off walked the horse, in perfect control but with nothing touching the two.
> Would you be impressed????


In truth, no, I wouldn't be impressed. That'd be kind of like clipping my horse's bridle path today w/o a halter on him and him just standing there. Or afterward when I asked him to do his stretches, which he did on his own. And then going into his stall when done because I asked him to go into his stall. No biggie.


----------



## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

NittanyEquestrian said:


> *How is getting them to stop leaning on the bit increasing bracing and evasion? The horse has inverted muscling from the bracing and evading. Any muscling they build from NOT bracing has to be an improvement. *


Because you are using something harsh to get them to back off the bit. IF you actually fixed the haunches, you wouldn't need the bigger badder bit, AND THEN, when the horse stopped leaning it would be because the horse was moving more correctly. But putting a bigger, badder bit in and then yanking on it simply teaches the horse to go behind the aids, and thus evade the contact and brace.




> *Head tossing in heavy hands I will give you. Leaning, yes they still can and will lean on the nutcracker if they are determined but they are less likely to run through it and completely avoid it like the very mild three piece french link. *


LOL! You've not ridden enough horses yet. Hey, just ask RiosDad how many horse's have run through a snaffle with the nutcracker affect. :wink:

*



And I only mentioned this because you said

Click to expand...

*


> "More horses will lean on a snaffle then a french link because of the painful nutcracker effect." *Which I read as you thought the french link was the nutcracker effect because you said more will lean on a snaffle. The french link gives tongue pressure but as long as it's not a slanted Dr. Bristol, which I doubt it is then it is definitely less harsh than a plain single jointed snaffle and would be less painful and more inviting to lean on. *


No, I meant 'because of the painful nutcracker effect' to be in reference to the snaffle, not the french link. I could have switched the sentence structure so that it read; More horses will lean on a snaffle because of the painful nutcracker effect, then a french link.



> *So instead of using other techniques and the options open to her to leg her horse up she's supposed to let it continue to decline physically and mentally from boredom and lack of exercise?*


Well, she can always continue on as she is, or put a harsher bit in the horse's mouth and hurt the horse with it and teach the horse how to evade and brace. Or, she can put the harsher bit in, maybe the horse backs off on its own, and then after the temporary situation is over, she can put the original bit back in and revisit the problem all over again and be no further ahead.

But I think she's going with the bitless bridle, isn't she?



> *Define failure. Is this setup going to get her back on the dressage training scale anytime soon? No. Could she safely ride in this situation? With common sense, I think yes. *


What's the purpose of the ride then? Just to say she rode? Legging up? How? That would require the horse to use its body in as effective a manner as the current condition allows, which can't be done if the horse is backed off the bit. 



> *If a horse leans on you every time you ask for a halt, are you supposed to stop asking the horse to halt because it leans on you every time?*


Not at all. Ask differently. 



> *Forgive me if I'm wrong, but don't you need an established half-halt to get the horse to COME UP with the front end and step UNDER with the hind leg? And how do you propose to establish a half-halt on a horse that's strung out, bracing and avoiding the aids?*


No, you do not. Forward, all on it's own, begins the process. Moving straight on a 20m circle begins the process. Shoulder-fore begins the process. And so on... 

You establish the half halt on this horse the same way you establish it on any other horse. Equine biomechanics applies to all equines.



> *I specifically stated that I wasn't talking about yanking on a horse's face. And you can't tell me that you never did big half halts, or pulses, or whatever the dressage term is for sitting the horse on it's ***. I meant a full body HALF-HALT with seat, legs and reins. And I've done this on reiners, gamers, dressage, jumpers and hunters. A few times in lessons with well-known DRESSAGE clinicians on heavy, bracey horses. I agree not to give them something to lean on but it's not always the solution, especially if there is a physical weakness they may be protecting. And I've never had a horse refuse contact after sitting them on their butt. In fact they seek it after they realize it's what I want and it's the easiest way. *


You said you agreed with RiosDad. Did you not read what he said? A half-halt is NOT what he's suggesting.



> *So you want to send a horse forward that is already "up", avoids any contact like the plague and doesn't want to stop? I think that spells disaster, but that's just me.*


Depends on what your definition of forward is.


----------



## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

Honeysuga said:


> *Ok I tied the pride lol*. I shouldn't have gotten so fired up, I will admit that for some reason or another I too love to get into it with Mercedes...we are just two BIG opinions who wont budge usually no matter what. I officially agree to disagree with you Mercedes from here on out, truce, white flag whatever hehe!


That's a good plan because you have no chance of winning.


----------



## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

ARRGH, ye be impossible Mercedes. I will be nice for you if you cant yourself. "Honeysuga, I accept your halfassed apology, do not apologize because of my awesomeness and we can leave it at that unless you want to keep challenging my authority on anything horse related"

Reply
" Ok Mercedes, I accept your terms, you are teh awesome, the pitiful mortal I am could never come close to the length or girth of your ego, I am weenie"

YAY glad that worked out so well! Now we can go on with our lives! teehee
All in good fun.


----------



## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

To the OP: I have not kept up on this thread so there are about 4 pages that I haven't read yet so if something you said makes this advice irrelevent then feel free to ignore it. Rather than use a bigger bit or a martingale what I would try is pretending that you can only move one arm at a time. For the next two weeks ride her every day and don't pull on both reins at the same time EVER. Stop her with your seat or bend her to a stop. If she runs off, ride it untill you can slow her down or bend her to a stop. It will take far more effort for her to ignore your rein if you are only pulling on the corner of her mouth rather than the full width of it. Ride her for two weeks like that and then pick up both reins and I will bet that youare shocked at how soft she is. Then ride her for a month without picking up both reins and see where that gets you.

As far as ground work goes, you have stated that she is really good but check her hindquarters and there is a good chance that you will find she isn't as organized as she should be. Make sure that you can disengage the hinquarters and drive the front around when you're changing direction. Then transfer that into the saddle. Don't just walk her in a half circle to turn her around. Yeild the hind and step the front through. Make sure that she is crossing over correctly when she does it and don't let her stop untill she gets it RIGHT.

Don't worry too much where her head is. worry about what her feet are doing and get that problem fixed and her head will go where it needs to be. One thing that gets young horsemen in trouble is that they worry about the head first. There were a few years in my life that I thought that I had to have the head fixed first and I NEVER had a nice soft horse with a really nice head and neck placement. Then I got some great advice and started getting the feet freed up and working like they were supposed to and all of a sudden my horse was willing to break at the poll and had a nice arch in his neck and was softer than any horse I had ever had.


----------



## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

Great advice Kevin! I thought the same thing, you just put it much much more clear ans well better.


----------



## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

Honeysuga said:


> ARRGH, ye be impossible Mercedes. I will be nice for you if you cant yourself. "Honeysuga, I accept your halfassed apology, do not apologize because of my awesomeness and we can leave it at that unless you want to keep challenging my authority on anything horse related"
> 
> Reply
> " Ok Mercedes, I accept your terms, you are teh awesome, the pitiful mortal I am could never come close to the length or girth of your ego, I am weenie"
> ...


If you'll give me a day or two, I have a list of other topics I'm not to be challenged on either. 

I will concede, however, to your expertise in bag pipe playing, flute cleaning, Ikea furniture assembling, and chicken catching.


----------



## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Honeysuga said:


> I think he deserves to be as cocky as he wants...


I would hope he has a good pair of jocks.


----------



## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

Spyder said:


> I would hope he has a good pair of jocks.


There is no emoticon for the amount of laughing I am doing this very moment.


----------



## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

Mercedes said:


> If you'll give me a day or two, I have a list of other topics I'm not to be challenged on either.
> 
> I will concede, however, to your expertise in bag pipe playing, flute cleaning, Ikea furniture assembling, and chicken catching.


Lol, I think it will take more than a day to list all the topics you will not shut up about, maybe a month if you are speed typing. :lol:

I know nothing about Ikea furniture, but you _can_ add Japanese flower arranging, deep sea meditation, choreographed skipping, and ornamental lawn mowing...:wink:


----------



## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

Spyder said:


> I would hope he has a good pair of jocks.


What are "Jocks"? I keep picturing a hulking pair of football linebackers on either side of him...:lol:


----------



## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

Honeysuga said:


> Lol, I think it will take more than a day to list all the topics you will not shut up about, maybe a month if you are speed typing. :lol:
> 
> I know nothing about Ikea furniture, but you _can_ add Japanese flower arranging, deep sea meditation, choreographed skipping, and ornamental lawn mowing...:wink:


I've already been working on the list for some time now, for just such an occasion. Any second now I expect we'll be hearing an announcement that Hell has frozen over. 

Well, we're screwed now. Is there anyone in the house who knows about assembling Ikea furniture?!


----------



## Wallaby (Jul 13, 2008)

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

This thread is killing me! Thank you all for making my night. 

And I'm sorry, I know nothing about Ikea furniture.


----------



## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

I had composed a wonderful, long, well reasoned contribution to this thread; all about Mercedes' ideals of classical training and why sometimes my approach is more pragmatic and less idealistic, about how the magic of the internet will not allow any of us to actually train Macabre's horse for her or give her a ring with good footing to work in ....

And I check back in on the thread and find "Put your penis back in its sheath" and "I would hope he has a good pair of jocks." and stuff about chicken catching and assembling IKEA furniture. ROFLMAO.

It was a good post, really, it was was, but it's gone now, and would be totally beside the point considering where this thread has gone. 

Macabre, you're an awfully good sport. Please keep us posted on how it goes with your mare.


----------



## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Mercedes said:


> Okay, you can not claim to be soft and easy around horses when you purposely run them and then yank with all your might on their faces. That's called a contradiction.
> 
> You can not claim to have soft hands with no contact when you've purposely bitted horses up so you could run them and then yank with all your might on their faces and left them standing shaking and fearful.
> 
> * :lol:


We are talking about a horse that runs uncontrolably. Runs away with the owner and nothing she can do will stop her. She got her male rider friend to try riding the horse with the same results. The horse just takes off running and nothing you can do will get her to stop, nothing.
Yes I bit her up with a wester grazing bit with a port, good reins and put her is a big field and they just let her run. When I decide to stop I hit her with all my strength and yell WHOA.
She will stop, she will stand and tremble.
I then point her is a new direction and get her to run flat out again and then repeat, hit her with everything I have, turn her inside out and yell WHOA. Again she stands tremebling.
I then point her for a 3rd time in a direct, force her to run wide open and then just sit back, no reins, no thing but a loud yell WHOA and she slams on, stand and trembles, I pat her, tell her she is a good girl and walk back home with a loose rein.
She has learned the word WHOA and will stop in future.
What is the alternative. The meat market Tuesday morning?? Taking dressage lessions?? The owner give up riding her ??
Yes she had a few wild frightening minutes there but she gets to sleep in her same stall nights, graze in the same fields during the day.
He life doesn't change. Not as bad as the 10 hour transport truck trip to the slaughter house.
You decide if I did good for her or not??


----------



## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Hoofprints in the Sand said:


> Is it just me, or does Riosdad like to brag an awful lot? ;-)


Back years ago my dog appeared almost weekly on TV. He was used on a couple of movie sets. I did about 2 shows a week in public and appeared at the sportsman show for a week as a feature.
I worked with the police on drug search, tracking and took down a few criminals, one with a baseball bat.
I train horses the same as dogs, they are quit similiar.
Newspapers use to print articles on me all the time. I won nearly every award a dog can win . For 12 years I dominated any obedience show I went in.
Brag?? I don't care. I am proud of my ability to train.
I also have years of experience, something you kids don't.


----------



## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Mercedes said:


> I've already been working on the list for some time now, for just such an occasion. Any second now I expect we'll be hearing an announcement that Hell has frozen over.
> 
> Well, we're screwed now. Is there anyone in the house who knows about assembling Ikea furniture?!


I assemble it all the time. While I don't like the stuff, alot of people do and it is easy enough to assemble.
I only have one piece in my house but my office freinds seem to buy it all the time for their offices and I assemble it for them.


----------



## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Spyder said:


> I would hope he has a good pair of jocks.


Don't need a jock. At my age I just suck them up.:lol::lol:


----------



## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> We are talking about a horse that runs uncontrolably.


No we are not. We're talking about a horse who's leaning on the bit and resistant to contact, and jigging about.


----------



## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> I assemble it all the time. While I don't like the stuff, alot of people do and it is easy enough to assemble.
> I only have one piece in my house but my office freinds seem to buy it all the time for their offices and I assemble it for them.


Well, at least you're good for something. It's probably why your wife keeps you around. :wink:


----------



## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

maura said:


> It was a good post, really, it was was, but it's gone now, and would be totally beside the point considering where this thread has gone.


Not to worry, you'll have plenty more opportunities to use it. I suggest you begin rewriting it now and save it. Cut and paste will be so much easier next time.


----------



## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Mercedes said:


> Well, at least you're good for something. It's probably why your wife keeps you around. :wink:


No I am good at nearly everything. I built our house, even laid most of the bricks.
I have been married, happily married for 42 years and every single Friday we go out on a date for supper.
I also rub her feet nearly every night while she watches her favorite show, whatever that might be for the evening.
Think of it girls. A good foot message with oil from a strong pair of hands.:lol::lol:
No I am good for alot of things.


----------



## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> No I am good at nearly everything. I built our house, even laid most of the bricks.
> I have been married, happily married for 42 years and every single Friday we go out on a date for supper.
> I also rub her feet nearly every night while she watches her favorite show, whatever that might be for the evening.
> Think of it girls. A good foot message with oil from a strong pair of hands.:lol::lol:
> No I am good for alot of things.


Clearly, you are one in million. :roll:


----------



## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

I suggest that the OP start another thread that hopefully won't get sidetracked for several pages with this BS.


----------



## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> I suggest that the OP start another thread that hopefully won't get sidetracked for several pages with this BS.


Spoil sport. There's a lot of good information in this thread. Plus, Honey and I have decided to bury the hatchet in RiosDad's jocks after he builds us a new Ikea computer desk. That's epic!


----------



## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

RiosDad said:


> Don't need a jock. At my age I just suck them up.:lol::lol:


 
The joke around the office is........

Why is a computer like a man.......

Answer.......

Because they don't stay up long enough....

but in your case the answer is...old and outdated. :lol:


----------



## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

RiosDad said:


> Back years ago my dog appeared almost weekly on TV. He was used on a couple of movie sets. I did about 2 shows a week in public and appeared at the sportsman show for a week as a feature.
> I worked with the police on drug search, tracking and took down a few criminals, one with a baseball bat.
> I train horses the same as dogs, they are quit similiar.
> Newspapers use to print articles on me all the time. I won nearly every award a dog can win . For 12 years I dominated any obedience show I went in.
> ...


LOL sweetie I'm hardly a kid! ;-) And I was just being playful, seems like everyone in this thread is if you hadn't noticed haha!

I'm sure you're QUITE accomplished, how can ANY of us ignore that fact with posts like this??? :lol:


----------



## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

Spyder said:


> The joke around the office is........
> 
> Why is a computer like a man.......
> 
> ...


 
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!! This thread is outta control! (and I love it!) :lol: And, crazy as it is, it DOES have a lot of great info in it, OP! ;-)


----------



## NittanyEquestrian (Mar 3, 2009)

Now that we have everyone's irrelevant expertise in order. Are we all going to continue to agree to disagree or are we going to post anything relevant?

I believe at this point everyone has been making assumptions about everyone else and it has turned into a bar fight with Rio as the mean hick western trainer, Mercedes the snobby dressage rider and myself as the misunderstood realist. That being said...

I don't think Riosdad was condoning forcing Zierra into a dead run and yanking on her mouth. He said he HAD done it many times on runaways, but she's not a runaway he was just defending himself. His position I believe was that if she is leaning and bracing then set her on her *** and then calmly continue. Eventually she will get the picture and stay light. I also think that Riosdad has a preconceived notion of dressage riders from his experiences and the average person would not totally disagree with him. That being said, not everyone who rides dressage does it the "competition way" with a lot of leg and arm strength and a false framed horse. I believe that Mercedes is a proponent of classical dressage and getting the horse light without holding them together so I believe a lot of the tension was due to differing opinions of "dressage". 

That being said, I agreed with Riosdad that the horse needed to learn not to brace and putting a slightly bigger bit in her mouth might make her less likely to lean and brace against it. A regular snaffle, a mild curb, etc would probably do the job. If the OP chose to use this method. 

Mercedes on the other hand advocates that you should use your legs and seat to engage the hindquarters of the horse. Using suppling exercises like circles, shoulder ins, haunches in and getting the horse moving forward into contact by "catching and releasing" on the reins so that there is no steady pressure on her face to lean on but you are still in control. I also feel that she is putting her experience with "cowboys" into Riosdad's mouth and therefore tweaking his words and advice into what she wants to hear and then defending her stand against these "harsh methods". I don't believe that either of you are accurately picturing what the other is trying to paint but I have been unsuccessful in helping to remove the blinders.

That being said...Like I posted earlier, I agree 100% with Mercedes in theory however the OP has stated that she doesn't have the facilities to make that happen, the horse can be ridden without a bit to get fit enough to be put back in training but she wants to know ways to alleviate the problem. She also recently stated that she has tried the "catch and release" contact and it didn't work for her. I was just trying to give her multiple avenues to try if this one method didn't work for whatever reason. I also only argued the theory to point out that even these "simple suppling exercises" cannot be performed by beginner and novice riders correctly. And when you create forward movement on a horse that is heavy and bracey then this can create a dangerous scenario for a novice rider.

Since most of the people asking/seeking help on this forum are either beginner or intermediate riders without the help of a professional trainer or instructor and this is a common problem, I felt it was important to offer advice that the average rider can safely try. I did not feel it my duty to assume the riding level of the OP or anyone that was following along without posting in hopes of learning how to fix the same problem with their mount. In my humble opinion a slightly bigger bit to ensure your not going to be run away with or ignored while hacking along roads is much safer than trying to create forward movement in a stir crazy and unfit horse. I was simply trying to be a voice of reason to the novice riders that might try some of the advice posted here and was trying to put that advice in simple to understand terms and explanations.

That being said...I most agree with Kevinshorses' last post. Playing follow the nose with a single rein will move her legs independently and not allow her to brace. Riding this way will also help to start the musculature retraining process and she might solve her bracing problem just by legging up her horse on the trails. Great post Kevin and a great piece of advice to anyone with an unresponsive horse. 

Feel free to add to or deny my assumptions. And...Spyder please pass the popcorn! =P


----------



## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

NittanyEquestrian said:


> That being said...Like I posted earlier, I agree 100% with Mercedes in theory however the OP has stated that she doesn't have the facilities to make that happen,
> 
> Feel free to add to or deny my assumptions. And...Spyder please pass the popcorn! =P


 
I would have to disagree with this portion. Unless the only area to ride is a 3 foot square ...a lot can be done in a small space.

I was at a show one time where it poured in the morning and the warm up area was totally dangerous so all I could do is walk the horse in the tiny space available at the end of the show arena only MINUTES before my ride. I walked and did nothing but what Mercedes stated. Total warm up time 4 minutes. Total area space ...about 20 meters by 10 meters.

My horse won...at Prix St George level.


----------



## NittanyEquestrian (Mar 3, 2009)

Your horse was also highly trained, extremely fit and used to using those muscles. I'm not advocating that it can't be done at all...I just don't think it would work in this situation. I could be wrong...it's been known to happen from time to time. But nobody but Macabre could even begin to know the answer...


----------



## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

NittanyEquestrian said:


> I don't think Riosdad was condoning forcing Zierra into a dead run and yanking on her mouth. He said he HAD done it many times on runaways, but she's not a runaway he was just defending himself. His position I believe was that if she is leaning and bracing then set her on her *** and then calmly continue. Eventually she will get the picture and stay light.


That is exactly what I was saying. To the OP I would never force her into a run. I would wait for her to make a jump and then shut her down quickly.
Thank you NittanyEquestians


----------



## huntergirl84 (Aug 30, 2009)

Boy, I can't imagine how frustrating that must be to have a horse that just grabs the bit no matter what. Here are a few tips that I haven't seen yet in the posts 1) You might consider the fact that this particular bit you have doesn't fit your horse's mouth properly. Your horse may not have a problem with her mouth, but they can have low palates, etc. which result in the bit pinching or hurting the roof of their mouths or tongues when pressure is applied. I'd recommend trying different bits (not neccesarily stronger), in particular, Mylar bits are designed to follow the contours of horse's mouths moreso than other bits and can be very effective with horses like this. Mylar's are a bit expensive, but it worked wonders on my horse.
2) Perhaps your horse is just out of shape and you are trying to get her to do too much too soon. You mention she only does this while trying to to do flexion. Perhaps she needs to build up more muscle first before you begin working on flexion, etc. which requires muscle.

Hope this helps. May also try an elevator bit, that provides a lot of leverage too!!


----------



## SeWHC (Jul 1, 2009)

mercedes said:


> spoil sport. There's a lot of good information in this thread. Plus, honey and i have decided to bury the hatchet in riosdad's jocks after he builds us a new ikea computer desk. That's epic!



l m a o


----------



## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

NittanyEquestrian said:


> That being said...I most agree with Kevinshorses' last post. Playing follow the nose with a single rein will move her legs independently and not allow her to brace.


Kevin wrote: _Rather than use a bigger bit or a martingale what I would try is pretending that you can only move one arm at a time. For the next two weeks ride her every day and don't pull on both reins at the same time EVER. Stop her with your seat or bend her to a stop. If she runs off, ride it untill you can slow her down or bend her to a stop. It will take far more effort for her to ignore your rein if you are only pulling on the corner of her mouth rather than the full width of it. Ride her for two weeks like that and then pick up both reins and I will bet that youare shocked at how soft she is. Then ride her for a month without picking up both reins and see where that gets you.

As far as ground work goes, you have stated that she is really good but check her hindquarters and there is a good chance that you will find she isn't as organized as she should be.

_Now, how is that different then what I said? 

I said ride her on the outside rein and stop giving her something to lean on. That's the same as 'don't pull on both reins at the same time'. She'll be riding the horse on one rein and not giving the horse something to pull on.

Kevin wants her to bend her to stop. I said ask for flexion. I already know she's not going to get 'perfect' flexion, but she'll get bend because to get the horse onto the outside rein she's got to ask that inside hind to step up and toward center body and for a horse in this condition, and knowing a bit about the OP by reading her posts for the past month...she's going to get the bend.

Kevin wants her to ride with her legs and seat. Me too. Kevin wants her to organize the hindquarter. Me too. Kevin doesn't want her to go to a bigger bit or martingale. Me too.


----------



## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Kevin wrote: _Rather than use a bigger bit or a martingale what I would try is pretending that you can only move one arm at a time. For the next two weeks ride her every day and don't pull on both reins at the same time EVER. Stop her with your seat or bend her to a stop. If she runs off, ride it untill you can slow her down or bend her to a stop. _

_If this mare is questionable sound you will ruin whatever rehabilitation she has with allowing her to run._
_Second she is on the side of the road. An extremely dangerous place to run a horse. One slip and she is on the pavement and down she will go. Bend her the other way and she is in the ditch._
_What are you going to do if she really gets a head of steam up?? Allow her to run it off or until using your seat, legs and one rein get her to stop???_
_It takes more guts then I have to do that plus again if she is questionable sound you will ruin her again._

_I don't agree with any of this. _

_Walk her, take it easy, bit her so you can stop her and at the first jump shut her down, relax, pat her, tell her she is a good girl and continue walking on a loose rein It won't put you in danger nor the horse._

_this doesn't take guts or foolish risks._


----------



## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Two things here. If a horse was questionable soundness wise I wouldn't ride it anywhere. Second, I wouldn't ride a horse on the road that I had a hard time controlling. I missed that part of the OP. It may be alot better to just wait a few weeks untill the ground firms up and the horse can be ridden elsewhere. Other than that my advice stands.


----------



## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Mercedes said:


> Kevin wrote: _Rather than use a bigger bit or a martingale what I would try is pretending that you can only move one arm at a time. For the next two weeks ride her every day and don't pull on both reins at the same time EVER. Stop her with your seat or bend her to a stop. If she runs off, ride it untill you can slow her down or bend her to a stop. It will take far more effort for her to ignore your rein if you are only pulling on the corner of her mouth rather than the full width of it. Ride her for two weeks like that and then pick up both reins and I will bet that youare shocked at how soft she is. Then ride her for a month without picking up both reins and see where that gets you._
> 
> _As far as ground work goes, you have stated that she is really good but check her hindquarters and there is a good chance that you will find she isn't as organized as she should be._
> 
> ...


I didn't pick a fight for 6 pages while saying it.


----------



## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

:lol:

It's ok everyone. People always mock me for my ridiculous ability to read faster then the speed of light and it's finally come in handy! Within 10 minutes I've managed to catch up, learn some new information AND have a good laugh!

This post needs to be nominated for "Best All Rounder" of the year award :wink:

Anyway, as for the reins, I never ever haul on both reins at the same time. I learned long ago that doesn't work. The only reason I'm working on some flexion when I ride is because without fiddling with the reins, she'll just stick her nose into the air and fight to trot off. I'm trying to give her something to think about by balancing with my outside rein and asking with my inside rein.

Again, huge thanks and I'm hoping to get a video on Thursday (I have the day off work). Fingers crossed, I look forward to another 10 pages of people insulting the color of my pants and telling me I ride like Gumbi :lol: Srsly tho, you guys rock, excellent post and I'm definately bookmarking this one!

Essentially our last ride went exactly like this for some clarification:

* Exit front yard on loose rein at brisk walk
* Justus jogs to catch up, so Zierra takes off at fast trot
* I gather my reins into a contact, she sticks her nose as high as it goes, inverting her back
* I balance my outside rein, sponge with my inside rein until I'm jerking on my inside rein to make her focus
* Her head comes down briefly, she tucks her chin to her chest, gapes her mouth and leans as hard as she can into the bit will fighting to move faster
* I drop my contact to make her stop leaning, she immediately throws her nose in the air and tries to jog off
* I get mad and shut her down hard, using a pulley rein. Zierra staggers on her haunches, nose straight up, and halts briefly
* I offer a soft contact and Zierra immediately attempts moving out at a jog again, chin to chest, bracing with everything she has
* My arms freaking hurt so I shut her down again, and make her circle

Repeat that about four or five times and you essentially have our ride. Obviously I can outpower an itty bitty Arab, even with the softest snaffle available, but my arms should not hurt and my fingers should not ache after riding for a mile because of her fighting me. When she's flexing, she's bracing everything she has against the bit in an effort to surge forward. When she's got her nose in the air, she's uncontrollable unless I use a pulley rein and throw her into her haunches to make her re-focus. Anyone who has ridden an Arab knows exactly what I mean.

As already stated, I will be riding her in her hackamore for her fitness in the next few weeks. She responds well to it, and right now training isn't a concern. Once her fitness level is back up and I have the front yard, we will then focus on her "re-bit-training".


----------



## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> I didn't pick a fight for 6 pages while saying it.


I didn't actually pick a fight, but you've certainly been trying your darnedest today.


----------



## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> :lol:
> 
> Anyway, as for the reins, I never ever haul on both reins at the same time. I learned long ago that doesn't work.
> * *I gather my reins into a conta*ct, she sticks her nose as high as it goes, inverting her back
> ...


Gumbi was a fine rider and I don't care what color your pants are. I bolded the parts in your description where you were pulling on both reins. *Think about what happened before what happened, happened. *You don't have to take my advice but I wanted to clarify that what you are doing is not what I was suggesting.


----------



## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Ok kevinshorses, thanks, I'll keep that in mind. I think I get what you're saying, but how do you stop them from circling if you don't maintain at least a base contact on the outside rein to prevent the nose from going to your knee?


----------



## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

You don't pull on a rein if you don't want them to turn so if they pull around to your knee then that's okay. Sometimes you have to sacrifice going where you want to go to get the feel you need to get. When you can ride somewhere away from the road don't worry about what direction you end up going just worry about how you are going.


----------



## rschenkel (Feb 21, 2010)

I have a 14 yr old QH I just got and he was pushing through the bit. My trainer thinks he had too many kids ride him and they don't release when the horse turns. He called it having no face. He tied one rein through the stirup and onto the back of the saddle with a quick release knot. Pulling the horse head in a turning position. The other rein just goes on the horn. Then he would chase him to make him turn in a circle (Its the only way he can go cause his head is turned) Let him stand there a while and think about it MAke him move again. Do this for about 10 to 15 min. each side. After a few days of this he turns now with your finger tips.


----------



## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> You don't pull on a rein if you don't want them to turn so if they pull around to your knee then that's okay. Sometimes you have to sacrifice going where you want to go to get the feel you need to get. When you can ride somewhere away from the road don't worry about what direction you end up going just worry about how you are going.


I'm taking Dressage lessons again and so the methods we are schooling in our lessons where Shay-la rides a mare much like Zierra (braces on the bit) are what I'm trying with my mare. My coach has essentially said that you need lateral flexion before you have vertical flexion, so I am trying to keep her nose tipped slightly to avoid allowing her to brace on both hands so easily. Maybe I am just trying to hard to implement methods that work on well-trained horses.


----------



## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

If you keep yourself from pulling on two reins at a time then you are esscentially using lateral flexion to stop and turn and position your horse. I didn't make this up I learned it from a very good horseman here locally. He trains reining and reined cowhorses and that's how he starts all his young horses. Give it a try and you will be shocked at how your horse responds.


----------



## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

I agree with what Kevin is advising, except(or, _to add_, really), the horse does not need to turn with just rein pressure. Sure, if she turns at least she is not going forward, and in the beginning this is great, but after you stop her moving forward, you want to stop her moving altogether, baby steps.

She should give to you laterally without turning, pretty much JUST bending her neck, this will help keep her from throwing her self 100% into bracing against you. 

Flex her laterally(with just your rein, no seat or body) and ask for a whoa with the rest of your body, she cant throw her head as easily from a lateral flexed angle, she has built all her muscle into bracing vertically and pushing her face down and out and up to avoid, so you can catch her unawares and prevent the brace by asking for her to transition down and woah in a different way just by laterally flexing her. 

Make sure she will easily and willingly flex her neck on the ground, at a standstill under saddle, and going calmly before you try to do this when she is throwing a fit.


----------



## NittanyEquestrian (Mar 3, 2009)

So I was riding my gelding tonight that I said was a lot like Zierra in the bracing and evading business. Tonight he was soooo heavy and was completely refusing to do trot/halt and canter/halt transitions. Even though we just did them last time fine. I had to unlock his jaw, neck and shoulders to get a supple halt. To do this I started playing follow the nose in what I call the drunk run. Where you take a few steps left, then straighten, then go a few steps right. Back and forth at the walk and trot. This gets them following their nose and working off one rein like Kevin said. Then I started alternating my half halts. I would bump with my left leg and collect with my right rein, then the next step I would bump with my right leg and collect with my left rein. I was basically bumping him up into the bridle but alternating sides so he didn't have a steady pressure to brace against. I got some really nice supple halts out of this at the trot and then called it quits for the night. This may be something you could do even in the hackamore on the side of the road to get her to sit on her haunches and raise her front end a little.

On a side note, thanks for reminding me about following the nose Kevin. I tend to forget about the simple things when I get into fights with my horse about how he can do something one minute and then shut down the next. It helps him regroup physically and mentally.


----------



## Toymanator (Jul 31, 2009)

I have a green mare that I haven't ridden all winter, I bridled her up with a loose ring snaffle and worked her neck from the ground. First start on the ground, get her to flex her head around to your stirrup. Initially he may pivot around, hold onto the saddle to help you stay in line with her and hold her nose to the stirrup until she stops then immediately release. Then when she understands that she can pull her neck around with out pivoting. lightly pull on the inside rein until she gives you her head, when you feel her give it to you and the slack of the rein comes out, release. (sometimes it helps if you scratch where you want their nose to go the first few times) Work it until she gets really good and almost anticipates bringing her head around from both sides. I did this with this mare that I hadn't ridden all winter for 10-12 minutes, she had a really stiff neck! Then do it from the saddle, if she pivots hold the pressure until she stops. I did the same with this mare, then when I asked her to move forward she lunged forward. This is not what I asked for so I grabbed the one rein and flexed her head around until she stopped. Then you move them forward again. I spent the next 45 minutes turning all over the field I was riding just getting this mare to respond to the rein pressure, until she became reasonably lighter. The next two hours turned out to be a great first spring ride. This is nothing new and has been posted by others members in this discussion. I just felt that I would give my experience yesterday as a witness that it works. I really didn't know what side of the barn this mare woke up on, in fact she has known to be testy. However because I can control her neck I am able to confidently do a lot of things with her. Of course this would be difficult to do on the side of the rode, I would find an arena or a large field where you can concentrate more on her response to your hands than on which lane of traffic you are in.


----------



## TheCowgirlRanda (Mar 31, 2010)

I agree with you. I have done something similar to train a horse to back up... she would almost fall over sideways when I asked for her to back up but when I used this method I got results that day!!! its worth a try!


----------



## akoch (Mar 28, 2010)

I don´t have the time to read through all those post in this great thread!
But one question: If she is going fine bitless why do want to go back to the trouble riding her with a bit?
I have a connemara pony that had problems with the bit. She was pulling, shaking her head,....riding was not much fun.
I had her teeth checked by a vet and he floated her teeth. Not much improvement. I started riding her with a bitless bridle and subsequently with a LG-Bridle.(LG Bridle™). It was like riding a new horse! No more problems since I would never bother putting a bit back into her mouth!
Last summer I eventually found out what the problem is: I had an equine dentist check her teeth. She said straight away that she has an old root that has grown onto another tooth. This has obviously caused her pain with the bit.
Lesson No 1 I learned from it: There is always a reason for their behavior. Usually it is pain or discomfort. Sometimes it is difficult to find out what is cause is. But there is a problem somewhere!
Lesson No 2:use an equine dentist and not a vet to have the teeth checked!

Anja


----------

