# Unbalanced canter?



## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

I'm 99.9% sure, without seeing photos/video, that the issue is purely because your horse is on its forehand. Some horses have enough natural balance to turn smaller figures while on the forehand, others do not. I'd say your horse isn't one of the lucky ones that knows where its feet are at all times, therefore finding the smaller turns hard to navigate.

The best advice I can give, again without seeing photos/videos of what's going on, is to get yourself and your horse to a good trainer - as a Dressage rider I would recommend a Dressage coach, as we are very much focussed on having the horse off the forehand.


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## hberrie (Apr 28, 2012)

Why am I not getting any other responses? Is this a stupid question?


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

You're not going to get magical answers that will fix the questions over the internet. My response is a sound and logical one - I suggest you try it before disregarding it.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I agree with Kayty , even though her answer wasnt' very magical.

I'd do more trot work , add in spiral in , spiral out, so that horse works on moving in a circle but also moving in and out laterally. If you have trouble at canter, back down a gait and get things really good at trot.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Sorry Tiny, I'll have to sprinkle some fairy dust on my responses for you


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Without video, you're going to have a hard time getting anyone to commit to an answer. When my mare did something that sounds sort of similar, it was because she compensated for my weight by going way over on the forehand most of the time - but I really don't know if your horse is doing the same thing Mia was.


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## hberrie (Apr 28, 2012)

I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I can't afford a trainer and I don't know how to get my horse off of the forehand. I am not a dressage rider and I am not exactly sure if I even know what this means or how to correct it. I thought I wrote back about this, but I guess I didn't. Yowza!!! You guys are tough! Some more info...when I canter him in arena he does nice walk to canter transition, but seems like he is working awfully hard at keepig the gait I.E. barrelling forward. Canter is very fast and uncollected. When he canters on trails , uphills especially, his canter seems alot better and smooth.


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## 4everiding (Jul 3, 2012)

Part of the reason no one is giving you an answer, is because the mechanics are easy to explain, but if you don't know what you're supposed to feel and when the exact moment is that you need to reward your horse, you can end up with an even worse problem and a very confused and sour horse. 

I agree with Tiny and Kayty's advice, Dressage and lateral work will work if your horse is on his forehand. If you can't afford a trainer, buy books, buy videos and try to pick up anything you can. Try looking for a trainer, some are very very reasonable. I live on the other side of PA and most trainers expect $60-80 for a private hour, my trainer is really good and is awesome at explaining things and he's only $45 for a private. You never know until you look around, who's out there and who will be willing to help you out. Good Luck!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

OK...my mare canters much better on trails than in the arena. That may be because it is easier to canter straight, or it may be that she simply understands what she is doing better when she isn't in a near continuous turn.

When we canter in the arena: I hurt my lower back shortly after I took up riding 4 years ago and it is still pretty stiff on my right side. I find it very hard to sit well back in the saddle and flow with the horse because my back doesn't move the way it needs to. Also, both of my horses used to leap into a canter as if there was an invisible fence to jump at the start of a canter. I'm one of those who ended up learning to canter on horses that didn't know how to canter with a rider. I tended to lean well forward because otherwise it felt like I was going to come out of the saddle. 

So I was starting the canter with my body too far forward, and they were following my body onto their front legs. I think they were also trying to escape my butt slamming the saddle into their back by hollowing out their backs and trying to put everything on the front.

I started using some *******ized version of a half seat where my butt was barely touching the saddle. Being a more forward position, it kept me from feeling like I was going to fall behind and thus kept me from tensing up. It also freed up the saddle to move with the horse's back, and therefor helped them to be more relaxed. And with practice, I'm getting better at relaxing back a bit and slowly entering the saddle, although I still don't ride a canter with all my weight in the saddle.

Here is a thread I bookmarked because it really helped me. And BTW, I use an Aussie-style saddle with my mare and a western one with my gelding, so I'm not an English rider:

http://www.horseforum.com/english-riding/riding-canter-half-seat-120340/

All this seems to be helping my horses to relax, and when they relax they can also turn better at a canter.

It is hard to describe it in words. I also fully understand that good teachers aren't exactly easy to find in many parts of America. I tried getting instruction in cantering from two instructors who were very helpful to me in some areas, but not for teaching someone to canter. One taught entering the canter by pulling the horse's nose to the outside of the turn, which I think unbalances them and makes it harder.

I have no idea if any of that applies to you. I own three horses and can only say what has or has not worked for me.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

No magical answers I'm afraid
Does your horse understand collection? If hes on the forehand then I'm thinking not - being heavy on the forehand will cause him to trip and get his legs in a plait in a menage situation
Try going back to your trot work, at sitting trot get him to shorten his stride and increase his impulsion at the same time by resisting with your hands as you push him into the bridle - think of him like a spring between your hands and legs/seat. This energy will encourage him to get his quarters underneath him and left him off his forehand. When you go from this into canter think the same technique - so he goes in on a short stride pushing from behind rather than a long one pulling himself along with his front legs
If you know how to lunge him you could try that as it would help him find his own balance - insist on a slow canter - not a mad gallop around - keep it short as too much canter work on small circles isn't good


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

This is incredibly hard, if not impossible to explain to a rider without seeing video of how they ride. If you don't have feel, you will struggle big time and anything I suggest to you you will probably go cross eyed at.
Having someone on the ground, helping you in real time, and telling you when its right, is so vital in developing a good feel. You might get the correct response but unless you know that it's the correct response, you end up punishing your horse for it without intending to. 


Right now, think NOTHING of collection. That is way, waaaaaaaaaay down the line. Collection comes from years of hard work, correct training, strength and gymnastic training. 

I'd be going right back to basics. Get your transitions spot on, and repsonsive to your seat. No pulling on the reins. If your reins come back towards your body, you are pulling, and pulling the reins pushes the hind legs out the back - tada, you're on the forehand. 

Millions of transitions are your best friend, no more than 12 strides allowed at the same gait, or same tempo. Change it up all the change. Change rein, change speed, change figure size, change movement...
My favourite exercise on my current horse, who likes to dump on his font legs at any given oportunity, is to ride him on a 18m square, in the middle of the arena - not allowing him to rely on the walls to balance. 
On that square, I will ride shoulder in on one side, medium trot on the next, travers on the next, renvers on the next, coming towards half steps on the next, leg yield on the next, ride a 1/4 canter pirouette on the corner..... you get the idea? Shake it up. Your horse won't be at the level to do these exercises, but you can follow the same pattern. Ride walk on one side, ask for inside bend on another, outside bend on another, trot leg yield on another, halt at the corner and ride a turn on the forehand.... have fun, be creative. 

In canter, don't allow the horse the oportunity to get unbalanced. Canter for a few strides, then come back to trot, get the quality of trot back, and then ask for canter again. Stick to 20m circles for now, straight lines allow the horse to string out and become unbalanced. On a circle you have much more control of the bend, speed and balance. Straight lines are only for testing your training on the curve. 
Once you lose the quality of canter, its very hard to get it back. Even I struggle in canter, once it is lost, to regain quality without making a transition and starting again. OWN EVERY.SINGLE.STRIDE. 


Maybe this will give you a bit of a starting point. But they're only going to get you so far - if you do not know how to apply a correct half halt, rock a horse back over its haunches and dictate the tempo with your seat, the quality of basic paces is going to struggle and the horse will want to be on the forehand. 
I have been riding dressage for years, and worked very, VERY hard at it. My current horse is a very nice, talented Hanoverian who has a great talent in the collected work, BUT he requires so much of my focus to keep him together. If I let my concentration slip for just a moment, he's back on the forehand and running through my reins. People who know me, know that they can't try and chat to me while I'm riding this horse - I will snap at them if they do, purely because of how much of my focus he demands. I suggest you think about riding like this for a while. Give your ride your 100% focus and dedication. Concentrate as hard as you can, on working out where each leg of your horse is at any one time, on whether the horse is more on his front legs, or hind legs, on one shoulder or two, is the neck a little overbent etc.


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## hberrie (Apr 28, 2012)

Thank you so much BSMS! That video was awesome and I wished I had a "Rocky " To practice on. Very informative and I think it will help.


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## hberrie (Apr 28, 2012)

Thanks also Kayty! This is what I was looking for ... not a "magical answer". I honestly don't know where that idea came from. I am just trying to understand the horses movement more and any little thing I can try to make it better. I am obviously nowhere near an experienced rider and would really prefer just to ride trails and enjoy my horse. I have no interest in showing, but would like to learn how to get the best out of my horse. I know without a trainer that is impossible, but I am trying to do the best I can on my own. I am sure to you professionals this seems ridiculous. Thank you for taking some time out of your busy days to help me. I learn a lot from this forum and I have picked up alot here that has helped my horse and I to become better partners.


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## AdriaStitt (Jul 22, 2012)

Try the half seat. Get off his back and ride if possible on a safe but not level field. I use my pasture. Don't go for the small circles yet. Just keep him from leaning on your hands and like the previous poster wrote bring him back down to trot as soon as he gets quick. So simple terms... Find a semi level safe field. Canter in half seat which is just getting your weight off his back so you don't interfere while he works on balancing himself. If he leans on your reins just drop them and pick him back up with half halts. And don't let him get quick. work on leg pressure response. He should be able to move away from the pressure. Do this first at the walk then trot. Try shoulder ins and half passes. It will help him learn to move up under himself and it will eventually translate to the canter. For now really focus on the leg pressure at walk and trot. With canter just keep it safe and reward small steps. I only walk trotted my ottb for the first two months. After that canter was much easier.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

I don't think this horse is quite established enough for shoulder in, let alone half pass which is a movement which requires a large degree of balance on the horse's part. Not an exercise to create balance.


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## AdriaStitt (Jul 22, 2012)

Really? Not sure why any horse wouldn't benefit from these type of yielding exercises at the walk.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Yep, leg yield, shoulder fore, turn on the forehand, turn on the haunches.
Half pass in walk is increadibly difficult for a horse - hence performed in trot and canter - the sequence of footfalls make lateral work in walk very, very difficult for the horse. 
Half pass requires the horse to bend around the inside leg, with inside flexion - there is a reason if is not asked for in a Dressage test until medium/advanced. 
It is an exercise which is performed to show off the horse's balance, not create it. A horse that is flat on the forehand, digging holes to China with its front legs is never going to be supple, strong and balanced enough to carry a half pass.


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## AdriaStitt (Jul 22, 2012)

Thanks for letting me know how amazing my horse is. Half pass at walk piece of cake. Inside bend and I don't even need to use that inside rein all leg crosses outside fore and hind legs across inside while moving forward as well. Nope sorry he's not for sale.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

No need for the attitude mate. 
Though I'd be interested to see a video of this 'half pass'.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

And that is ok, you can keep your horse. I've got two very nice, very well bred and very talented ones in my paddock that I am quite partial too  My gelding under saddle has started half pass, and yep, he's got it in walk. But walk half pass as I said above is not easy for the horse - maybe for the rider if they are unable to balance and apply aids quickly enough for trot and canter - and often the quality of walk will be lost. The number of 4 beat walks I've seen occur when a rider is too scared to ask for lateral work in trot. It's easy enough to force some semblance of lateral work in walk, but to maintain the energy, collection, correct bend and connection is not a simple task. If you have achieved this, then I am happy for you. However the OP does not appear to be at a level of feel and skill that would allow them to acieve this in a manner that is beneficial to the horse.
Unless you own Donnerhall or Gribaldi, I'll keep my boys!


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## AdriaStitt (Jul 22, 2012)

Love to post a vid but I can't even figure out how to post pics so that would be difficult. No attitude though truly didn't realize it was very hard for a horse to half pass at walk. Maybe that's the reson it's so easy for us. Haha


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Well, I wouldn't know a half pass if my horse did it! I'm probably more at the OP's level, and just happy when my horse canters with some balance and enjoyment. It has taken both of us a while - a long while - to start relaxing in a canter...

But we're having fun, and she's getting more confident, so we're going in the right direction.


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## Back2Horseback (Mar 21, 2012)

I definitely feel the frustration of the OP!! You WANT to make sure you are doing things correctly with your horse, and it is SO hard to tell when that is happening. You ONLY know that something is NOT right...with the tripping, etc...You simply want to know how to "make it better" and that is a GREAT thing to WANT TO do, though probably harder to actually do without someone there all the time... :wink:

I'm with BSMS on this one...I do get some collection when riding with my trainer directing EVERY impulse I have at EVERY stride...when I'm alone Victory will also tend to travel heavy on the forehand and I'll never even know if she is hollow or round, in a nice frame or completely unbalanced! One day...One day...I must remember this!:-wink:

I wouldn't recognize anything amazing Victory was to do while I was riding her, at this point in me "re-education"; and if Holly wasn't there cueing me as to what I had done and what Victory's response had been ("Excellent! She is completely bending for you, and note her nose just tipping to the outside ever so slightly? PERFECT! You have her travelling completely with rear impulsion! GREAT job!") and certainly would not recognize on my OWN that I WAS in any manner the REASON for the "amazing thing" occurring while riding alone! It CERTAINLY would be accidental were that to occur! 

I'm just thankful and satisfied that I'm finally becoming comfortable with my rising trot, and somewhat comfortable with my sitting trot! It's ironic, because the horses I'm riding ARE lightyears farther along in their training than I am (obviously--both having shown at 4th level dressage), and I ALWAYS imagine them thinking, "Ugh. HER again?" when I ride, because though I am soft with my hands and do not tend to be so unbalanced at this point as to make them work MUCH harder than normal, I KNOW how much more they enjoy their mom (my trainer) riding them and doing almost anything nearly perfectly!

I am just lucky to have a nice ride during a lesson, where I feel I am not frustrating Victory or Giselle too immensely, with me carrying more weight on one side or the other of my body--something I tend to do from time to time, cueing for something other than that which I was intending. etc...if that makes sense! :wink:


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## AdriaStitt (Jul 22, 2012)

Wow talk about attitude! I didnt really read this last night because I wasn't looking for a fight. I imagine your two horses are very high and that you rarely get off them. You give great ideas and tips. However I don't agree that the OP should avoid lateral work. Dressage moves are not rocket science. Yes half pass too advanced to start. But there is no reason this woman should not look up some pressure yielding exercises and how to introduce them to her horse while riding. Any of those movements will help a horse be more responsive to the rider and it will translate to better balance all around.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Kayty didn't suggest no lateral work. She said that something like a half pass or shoulder in is out of reach at the moment for the OP and the OP's horse, and suggested some easier lateral movements, such as turns on the fore/hindquarters, leg yield etc. And you were the one who suggested a half pass as a good exercise for this horse. So if you are going to accuse people of riding on a high horse, make sure you aren't in the nosebleed section yourself...


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I have only ever started a horse into learning the half pass at a walk, its far less stressful on their joints and less risk of knocking injuries while they are getting used to that type of forwards/lateral movement.
I actually cant think why doing stuff like shoulder in and leg yields would do anything but benefit the horse as he will need to lighten the forehand and use his back end to do them
It is hard to make judgements without seeing the horse work but the OP gave me the feeling that it was going forwards willingly (had impulsion) - just heavy on the forehand which is why working circles was a problem for it. It doesn't appear to have any difficulty going forwards in a straight line out in the open.
I dont know how you can effectively get a horse off the forehand without it learning to use its quarters correctly and push from behind unless you start to ask for some collection - this doesn't have to be some sort of immediate thing and the rider isn't going to be looking for the extremes of Piaffe & Passage- it should be a gradual progression and shouldn't be beyond any horse that has established all the basics and is working fit.


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## AdriaStitt (Jul 22, 2012)

Kayty said:


> I don't think this horse is quite established enough for shoulder in, let alone half pass which is a movement which requires a large degree of balance on the horse's part. Not an exercise to create balance.


pretty sure this means she is assuming this horse and rider are not capable of either movement. Many coaches would like you to think that you can accomplish none of this without their help. And I said half pass too advanced to start but no reason she can't work up to it in a reasonable time. You can work on these exercises without a coach and there is a TON of information available on the web about how to start lateral, bending and pressure yeilding exercises with your horse. I think you should just stick to following her around with "likes".


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

The OP doesn't compete in dressage. In another post on another thread, she says, "I prefer western riding and my daughter likes to ride english".

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/working-teaching-neck-reining-137297/#ixzz26M7u9AND

She also has posted on problems getting the horse to canter on the correct lead - another problem I share!

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding/horse-wont-canter-correct-lead-right-133872/

I doubt she is using collection in the dressage sense, so telling her to wait for 'collection' probably isn't the best advice. I doubt she is thinking in terms of collected gaits, per the FEI. I know with my horses, as we've worked on cantering from time to time, I want them to take weight off the front and move it to the back and to move in a more balanced and relaxed manner. Frankly, with a couple of brief exceptions, my mare's early attempts at a canter were out & out dangerous. I literally thought a few times we were in danger of flipping or falling!

As someone who is working on these issues at a very basic level reguarly, here is what has helped me:

1 - If my mare put her head dangerously low, I used brute force to pull it up while still urging her to keep the canter. At that stage, if she tossed her head to the outside of the circle for balance, I let her - because not flipping over with me on her back was my top goal!

2 - After 3-4 rounds of the above, she figured out it was easier and felt better to NOT lean way forward with her nose 3-4 inches from the ground. At that point, I decided her head needed to belong to me. I do NOT want her putting her head outside the circle for balance, so if she did, I'd move her nose to the inside. Not much and not aggressively, because her nose was out to help her balance and I didn't want to throw her off with sudden pulling - but gradually and firmly her nose moved. To help her with HER balance, I needed to work on MINE. That was when I started using my attempt at a half-seat. I found I felt more secure and stable that way. It freed up her back to move easier. It certainly kept me from flopping around and throwing her off balance.

3 - To make cantering less fun for my gelding, whose balance was better but who became very enthusiastic about cantering, even if we were not doing it well, I insisted on cantering further than he wanted. Not forever, but every canter lasted 15-30" longer than he really enjoyed. With both of them, I've needed to urge them to a quick trot WITHOUT going to a canter, because otherwise they will automatically switch to the easier and smoother canter when THEY want.

4 - With help from using a half seat or even two point at times, I've been able to feel some of the rhythm of the canter and start to match it. It was a bit unfair of me to expect them to learn cantering with a rider who was also learning, but sometimes you have to make do with what you've got. I could NOT feel the rhythm of the canter while trying to move my hips with the saddle. I needed to have time cantering and feeling the horse without interfering with the horse in order to start matching my horse in a way that helped her/him. 

That gave me the confidence and control to start helping my horse. It is easier on them if I'm not too forward, and so after doing some cantering in a two-point (and I'm a weird rider, part western part english in an Aussie-style saddle), I'd sit down a little more and shift my weight back to help cue them to move their weight back and to slow without dropping a gait.

5 - I'll use a lagging rein to help cue them to reach a little less with each front leg. That probably isn't the right name for it, but oh well. If neck reining with a loose rein, I'll switch to direct reining and lag the motion of the front leg. As the horse's right leg moves forward, my hand will move forward a little late, or maybe even a light pinkie of pressure on it as it moves forward. We did a lot of this at the walk and trot, and they normally respond by moving their front leg a little less distance - which effectively moves some of their weight to the rear.

Also, if in doubt, we'll work on turns at a trot.

OK - has all this turned me or my horses into Experts At The Canter?

Nope. But they are getting more relaxed and balanced. We don't work on it every ride because cantering isn't real valuable for trail riding where I live. Too many rocks, and there aren't many stretches where I can ask them to canter without risk of hurting their feet...bare feet.

They both still have a lot of trouble with picking up a right lead. I think the root cause of that is a lack of flexibility and balanced strength, but I don't know if I have it in me to correct the problem. The females in my family have insisted on our having 3 horses, but I do 80+% of the riding...and I just don't enjoy riding enough to keep 3 horses in proper physical shape. If we build a house on our other lot, off a dirt road, that might change. We would have a larger arena for riding, and the dirt roads would allow me to trot & canter them without going in constant circles.

In the meantime, I think I need to work on what I can do and not worry too much about what I don't have the time to do. Cantering is a great thing for me to know as a rider, and it is good for them to know how to do it balanced with me, but our focus in on become good trail riders...and I don't need to canter for that around here.

My apologies for a near-endless post. If it doesn't help, ignore it.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Thank you *bsms*. I do think there is too much enthusiasm for people to assume dressage when anyone talks about 'collection'
From what I could gather in this OP's situation it was just about having a horse that could canter safely in a circle - or out on a rougher track for that matter and the type of collection that just involves asking the horse to lighten its front end and use its hindquarters is really fairly basic


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Thankyou BSMS, this is what I was trying to get out. 
The OP is not a dressage rider, therefore I really don't feel that trying to tell them to teach their horse half pass and shoulder in was going to be beneficial. 
Basic transitions, changing size of circles, and some leg yielding will all be helpful. Trying to teach Dressage laterals over the internet will probably just make their head explode  

My horses by the way, are both definitely not high


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## hberrie (Apr 28, 2012)

Thank you BSMS and Jaydee for understanding my plight. I lunged my horse tonight to see how he would do out of saddle and he was perfect the left and off to the right. I was able to see why he is tripping. He is favoring his right rear leg from a hock injury that I thought was foregone, but is back. I will get a vet to advise me and I hate hate hate the rivalry on here. It is not necessary. No matter how skilled you are you should not try to belittle anyone because at some point in your life ...you were them. And Jaydee completely understood what I meant by "collection". Thank you!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

hberrie said:


> Thank you BSMS and Jaydee for understanding my plight. I lunged my horse tonight to see how he would do out of saddle and he was perfect the left and off to the right. I was able to see why he is tripping. He is favoring his right rear leg from a hock injury that I thought was foregone, but is back. I will get a vet to advise me and I hate hate hate the rivalry on here. It is not necessary. No matter how skilled you are you should not try to belittle anyone because at some point in your life ...you were them. And Jaydee completely understood what I meant by "collection". Thank you!


 And thank you hberrie
I'm afraid we all can get a bit like that at times, (rivalry) we all have strong opinions I suppose. Better to just give our own thoughts/methods and allow others to do the same and let the OP sift through them
I'm afraid I was guilty of getting a bit too sharp with someone this week so I do know how hard it can be.
Good luck with your horse, at least you now can see some cause & direction


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