# Dryland Pasture, paddock paradise, arid climate



## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

subbing


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

Diagram of the property. Thick yellow lines represent the post and board fence that is going in now. Thin yellow line shows where electric interior fence will go to make paddock paradise lanes. Blue oval is my funky arena. Faint orange line shows the cliff. The Southern end of this line is tallest, tapers off so it can easily be walked over on the North end.
Green squares are the hay shed and tack room. Existing green building is the existing run in shed in the dry lot. We end up with 2 dryland pastures: The West one on the upper terrace surrounding the arena, and the East one with the cliff in it (which I just realized is heart shaped). The steepest part of the cliff is excluded for safety. North of the house will eventually have green houses and other non-horse uses, including keeping them 50 feet off the well and off of the septic tank.

ETA: uploaded upside down, so North is Down and West is Right


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## Rain Shadow (May 1, 2014)

WOW that is amazing! I'd love to do a pasture paradise, sadly its not possible with my current property. But its a dream!

Subbing!


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

not sure about your thin yellow lines, hard to see and not sure what you are meaning as paradise lanes. Have you left enough room for a hay truck to come in , unload and turn around? Also on your hay shed, if you are getting retriever loads or squeeze loads that the shed is tall enough , the main complaint from our hay delivery guys plus the lack of space to manuever. I am on a dirt road, so the semis just park on the road  .


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

stevenson said:


> not sure about your thin yellow lines, hard to see and not sure what you are meaning as paradise lanes. Have you left enough room for a hay truck to come in , unload and turn around? Also on your hay shed, if you are getting retriever loads or squeeze loads that the shed is tall enough , the main complaint from our hay delivery guys plus the lack of space to manuever. I am on a dirt road, so the semis just park on the road  .


Hay shed and tack room are already built (just not on the 2012 ortho map. Along with a teardrop driveway that we excavated. We had a semi truck deliver hay a few months ago and it works just fine, thank you.

Paddock paradise is a unique horse keeping idea where instead of a big rectangular drylot, the horses are on lanes or loops about 12-30 feet in width to encourage more movement. I like the concept from a land conservation paradigm because in my area the land is denuded very fast by horses, so this allows the horses to wander about, but not destroy all the habitat. Sorry they are hard to see. The actual image was too big to upload so I took a photo of the computer screen.

http://paddockparadise.com/UMass%20Newsletter%20on%20Paddock%20Paradise.pdf


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## whisperbaby22 (Jan 25, 2013)

I'd like to see how this progresses. Looks like a lot of fun! I, too, have to small a property to paddock paradise.


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

*August 2014 pasture condition and finished projects*

A few pics. One of the current dryland pasture condition. ..which is dry with a lot of cheat grass.
The other two are of finished projects. The hay barn and tack room plus a schooling bridge in the middle of the teardrop driveway. 

























Why with the upside down loading!?!?!?


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

We are WAY behind schedule getting the perimeter fencing up and thus also on getting the track set up. Equipment rental adds up FAST, and my back goes out fast. But, the parts of the fence we have up are lovely and add a lot to the property.

For seeding I am waiting for it to get cold enough that the seed won't immediately germinate only to be frozen. Frost seeding is all about timing. Ideally I would like to get it on the ground the day before it snows, but we always seem to either get surprise storms, or no snow when they call for it. Predicting weather in Oregon is about like spinning a wheel of fortune.

A darn nice fence if I do say so myself:








Also note the giant pile of fill dirt and rocks, I think from years ago when the house foundation was graded. I need to get that flattened out a bit. I am going to leave it a bit so the horses have to cross it, but right now it is dangerous.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Nice fence . When you're finished, feel free to come and do mine lol.

I do have a question re your choice of grass... I'm planning on seeding my 2.5 ac also, but have an IR horse, so have to be extra careful what I plant. When I see"rye and wheat"I automatically think sugars. is there any place where one can find analysis of these grasses? Or would I be better off planting timothy and orchard, maybe some brome, since we have irrigation?


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

With irrigation I would definately go with brome and orchard, since there are very good resources on the sugar content in them. 

I am planting what I am due to lack of irrigation and 9 inches of precip...VERY limited. Though that said, wildrye and wheatgrass are not the same as cereal rye or cereal wheat. I have not been successful in finding specific sugar levels in them. I am not expecting much production from this pasture at all! _Maybe_ 0.5 AUM. It is really going to just be a nice treat for them once in a while and largely erosion control, a bit of dust abatement and hopefully weed suppression. If I had irrigation I would plant it to a bluegrass, brome, orchard mix in a heartbeat and cut down my hay costs!


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

deserthorsewoman said:


> Nice fence . When you're finished, feel free to come and do mine lol.


Haha, I cannot tell you how many neighbors have stopped while we are out working asking if we want to do their place, too! This fence has me darn near crippled, so I am buying scratch it lottery tickets each week hoping to win enough to pay someone to do the bottom half of the property :lol:


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

I'll go with orchard/ brome/ timothy then, thank you . 
I won't need much of that type of fence, only around the front part. I was lucky with having mesh fence all the way around and needed just a nice three stand electric tape fence to keep my horses where they belong. The three rail wood fence in the front is basically just eye candy


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

That is a nice fence ! how many acres are you fencing in with this ! The ground with the hills and rocks, if there are no large holes, leg breakers so speak, it may be a good training aid.. learn how to traverse different terrain  it looked like there was some molded hay bales, those I would get rid of asap. I like the bridge that is cool, That is a nice hay barn and shed.. 
that is a lot of work.


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

It's just under 5 acres total as the perimeter. The mound is almost safe as is but there are some big rocks and it is almost like two mounds with a pass through it. The mound behind the visible one is close enough to the fence and high enough I can just imagine chief hopping over! And those moldy bales are going in the compost little by little. They won't be in the paddock by the time the horses are there...they were here when we moved in and are pretty nasty.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

Long time no update!

A variety of circumstances prevented us from finishing the perimeter fence on schedule  I had abdominal surgery, the ground froze, DH got a new job that has him tied up most weekends. However, we have gotten most of the stretch between us and the neighbors done (since there were already RR tie posts, we just had to put up new rails). Come spring, we should be able to whip out the last bit of perimeter on the upper tier in 1 or 2 weekends.

I also got SO lucky with my seeding! I hand raked and broadcast seed in Early November, 2 days before we got 2 feet of snow! I was hoping for a few inches at least to help pack it down on the soil and get some frost heave, but 2 feet was awesome! We have also gotten almost 150% of our normal precip this winter, meaning come late winter/early spring, we should have some nice starts. End of February I will be seeding some alfalfa and some wildflowers (well the wildflowers won't be in the pasture, but around the edges of the property and on some rocky spots).

I also scored the ultimate freebie last week. Someone put on fb that they had taken down some poly tape from a 6 acre parcel, and giving it away first come first serve. So I got several hundred feet of poly tape for free to do the interior line.


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## whisperbaby22 (Jan 25, 2013)

Great! Put up some photos of your wildflowers when they come up. I've never had any luck with them.


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

I will post photos if they come up! I know they can be difficult to get established and this will be my first attempt, so we will see! I hope SOME of them come up, the mix has almost 20 varieties!


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## Horseychick87 (Feb 5, 2014)

It sounds awesome! Can't wait to see the completed project.


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## 4hoofbeat (Jun 27, 2013)

Can't wait to see this finished. i want to do paddock paradise too when I get a house


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## Comfortably Numb (Jul 16, 2013)

A couple of questions if I may.
What is the overall length of the planned tracks and how many horses would be there? You are calling 4 acres "small scale", but 16000 sq.m. of land in most parts of Europe is "huge".  Goes to show the difference in land value and population density...
Would food be dispersed along the tracks or fed from one location?


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

Honestly, I will need to measure the length. For a few years it will only be the upper tier of the property, so about 1.5 or 2 acres. 2 horses and possibly the addition of a mini donk in the future.
I wish I could spread the hay around, that would be ideal, but due to our pumice sand and one horse whose colon is very sensitive, i am going to feed in 2 locations where I can manage to keep some mats swept or put in pea gravel.


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## whisperbaby22 (Jan 25, 2013)

I can vouch for the pea gravel under feeders, works for me.


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## Comfortably Numb (Jul 16, 2013)

karliejaye said:


> Honestly, I will need to measure the length. For a few years it will only be the upper tier of the property, so about 1.5 or 2 acres. 2 horses and possibly the addition of a mini donk in the future.
> I wish I could spread the hay around, that would be ideal, but due to our pumice sand and one horse whose colon is very sensitive, i am going to feed in 2 locations where I can manage to keep some mats swept or put in pea gravel.


You should be able to get at least 3/4 of a mile, which is not too bad for two horses. As long as they are motivated to keep moving along the track. Moving more could also (hopefully) help with digestion for the sensitive horse.
Will follow the topic with interest as this could be a future solution for me as well - in the general case, living within an hour of the bigger cities (where non-farm jobs are) here means the rule of thumb is 1/4 acre per horse is an acceptable compromise.


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

I have seen some VERY creative setups that use very little space. It is neat to see how innovative folks get.


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## Chicknshrimp (Oct 30, 2014)

Awesome plans, can't wait to see how it turns out. We are doing the same in New Mexico but I haven't got it all laid out yet.


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## Cherrij (Jan 30, 2013)

oooh, great plans. 
Gets me inspired too. I have about 5 acres to use, and want to make the best of it, so I have been thinking about paddock paradise set up, but somehow I cannot imagine how to set it up the way it would be best for a couple of horses..


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

Woo! Nw ortho imagery was loaded in google maps. Which means new image, and I decided to play around with the design of the East half of the property. Seeing as it will be a few years before we get around to that side of the land, I will probably tweek the design about 100 more times


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

Comfortably Numb said:


> A couple of questions if I may.
> What is the overall length of the planned tracks and how many horses would be there? You are calling 4 acres "small scale", but 16000 sq.m. of land in most parts of Europe is "huge".  Goes to show the difference in land value and population density...


Wow. In Canada, 4 acres is considered small for horses.


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

Decisions, decisions! 
The spring seems to have sprung WAY early this year! Our rhubarb is sprouting, the grasses I seeded are sprouting, and now I am in a quandary, do I seed the alfalfa and wildflowers now or wait until the first week of March as I had planned?
Also, we are debating building an extension onto the back of the hay shed and moving the run in shed back there, plus adding a 12x12 run in to it making it 36x12. As is, the paddock paradise lane will go behind the hay shed. We are thinking having a 16' lane, then the row of run-in's. We would connect the roof into the hay shed so there would be a covered part of the lane there. Really not sure how to describe it.


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## EquineDuchess (Feb 13, 2015)

This is me being jealous!!!


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

I think we have an "in" on a free 12x12 noble shelter to go on our 12x24, making a 12x36. Our hay shed is 36' long as well. I am pretty sure we have decided to move the shelters to behind the hay shed, build an overhang to connect them with a 12' aisle and have the paddock paradise go through it. 
As pictured


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## whisperbaby22 (Jan 25, 2013)

Cool idea.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

that would be great to get a free barn. 
I would not have the horse barn attached to the hay barn, just in case of a hay fire .
Hay stacks go up fast and hot ! You may not be able to get the horses away from the fire and into a safer area.


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

It would all be attached to the paddock paradise lanes, the horses would NOT be shut in there.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

the drawing made it look liek the hay shed was directly attached to the barn.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

karliejaye said:


> Why with the upside down loading!?!?!?


...because the turning codes of some photo display softwares are not picked up by the software here, or elsewhere. We have never had any problems when going from Photoshop or from Flickr (where we have a lot of online photos).

Great thread, KJ! Do you have any deep(ish) sandy areas suitable for tagasaste or other fodder trees to plant in belts? Our rows of fodder trees are really helping fill the summer drought feed gap here in South Coastal Australia! Horses, donkeys and cattle are big fans!


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

With only 9" precip we really don't have many trees that will grow around here. Tons of Western Juniper, but it is a native invasive causing loss of thousands of acres of sage steppe each year. It is very competetive and may be allelopathic. Without irrigation, which we don't have except for our small garden, trees won't grow here. Mountain mahogany could tolerate the dry, but not our soil type. Sadly, no natural shelter belt


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

A little bit of photo manipulation to help visualize the new set up plan for the run-ins:

















I apologize, the perspective is kind of off, I put these together in about 10 minutes


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

Karlie - 9" of rain ! wow , we love that ! We would flood ! 
Sue - what is a fodder tree ? tagasaste tree ?


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

stevenson said:


> Karlie - 9" of rain ! wow , we love that ! We would flood !


Actually 9" of precip equivalent. We probably only get 3-4" of rain in the year, the rest comes from snow water content. It also almost all comes outside of the growing season :evil:. But I love the high desert and wouldn't live anywhere else, it is just a conservation challenge, since the native veg is so easily disrupted.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

I live in a semi-desert and we get very little rain on a normal year, and are in a huge drought again. We got more rain than last year , but not really any snow so the water levels are still down


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

stevenson said:


> Sue - what is a fodder tree ? tagasaste tree ?


...trees/shrubs with foliage that is high-quality livestock fodder for supplementing pasture. Tagasaste is also called tree lucerne and, like Acacia saligna, is a legume and produces palatable, high-protein feed. Both are prolific producers, and we just prune them with an electric pole saw and feed the branches out to enthusiastic cows, horses, and donkeys during the summer feed gap here in Western Australia.

We grow both as part of our shelter belts. 










The deep green, tall bushes next to the horses are three-year-old Acacia saligna, which we are currently pruning to limit their height, and to feed out. We currently have three >100m belts containing significant amounts of Acacia saligna. Also >500m of tagasaste hedges:










This is a shelter belt made from three-year-old tagasaste, surrounding our donkey yard (here used to acclimatise newly arrived horses).











Tagasaste hedge viewed from a main grazing paddock, there being cut for hay.










A belt of 50% Acacia saligna behind the tractor - it's the big, lush bushy things, far taller than the young eucalypts, bottlebrushes etc also in the same belt.


See also here:

http://www.horseforum.com/farm-forum/shelter-belts-485418/


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## whisperbaby22 (Jan 25, 2013)

Thanks, that is so cool. Wish I could do something like that.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

Thanks Sue C. i am going to check those trees.


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## Regula (Jan 23, 2012)

This is a really interesting thread. I was wondering why you chose a paddock paradise over giving them the whole area? For more exercise or to preserve the ecosystem? It does not seem like overeating is a big issue in the desert...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

Regula, in my case it is to preserve the ecosystem and I am attempting to grow a dryland pasture, which will need to be very selectively grazed if it is to succeed. I would just keep them in the current dry lot they have, but I do want to see if they will move more in a PP system, without tearing up the little veg that grows. A bit of a different reasoning than most, I suppose!


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

Karliejaye, It is so cool, what you and SueC are doing.

And in such different climates. Huge green Australia, and the High Desert.


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

We are once again renting the jackhammer this weekend. 14 holes to go, I think we can get them done in 2.5 days. Then the perimeter is complete, minus two gates which we are getting from a family member in July. So we will put electric tape over those spots in the meantime.

I need to get more t-posts and wide tape insulators to do the interior fence next. I got thinking about those step-in posts. I want to do t-posts at corners and every 50 feet or so, but I think in between those step-ins would work.
*Anyone have experience with them, especially in sandy soil?*


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## whisperbaby22 (Jan 25, 2013)

Are you talking about the cheap plastic stepins that you put electric tape on?


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

Yeah, like these: Zareba® Black 4 Ft. Step-In Fence Post - Pack of 50, Model # BZA-48B


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## whisperbaby22 (Jan 25, 2013)

Are you going to be putting these in to make "lanes" for your paddock paradise? If so, that sounds like a great idea. I have always been able to get a good shock in dry ground, but have only done small areas. Here is where our electric fence users that fence larger areas should be able to help. All this sounds like a lot of fun!


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

Yes, it will be for the "inside" fence of the lane. So if a few fail and the horses get out, they will still be contained on the property, not out on the road! I would NOT trust them for perimeter fencing, lol.

We put in one heck of a grounding system to begin with and my charger is rated for something like 5 miles. The drylot has a really good zap, over 5500 volts (highest the detector I have reads to). 3 6' copper rods spaced 10' apart buried in trenches (since we can't go that deep). We drove over them a bunch to get good contact and so far so good, even in the driest months.


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## whisperbaby22 (Jan 25, 2013)

Great, can't wait to see it. I have always had good luck by using a hollow ground rod and just keeping it full of water. Don't have to put it to far in the ground, and that little bit of water keeps it hot.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

anndankev said:


> Karliejaye, It is so cool, what you and SueC are doing.
> 
> And in such different climates. Huge green Australia, and the High Desert.


Australia isn't that green actually - only some of the coastal areas are! ;-) A lot of it would be comparable with where KJ lives in terms of rainfall. That, or less - we have one huge arid centre - and lots of seasonal droughts in most of our agricultural areas!


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

Sue, I keep thinking about those trees. What soil types and depth do they require? I need to do some research to check on invasive status, but it would be nice to have something besides juniper here.


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

We are SO close to having our paddock paradise track done! SO SO SO close that I got excited and did a video tour, even though it still needs a few tweaks here and there:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCQBNWmW42Q


ETA: sorry the video gets really dark at times, a storm cloud was moving in. Also, sorry I don't have a good narration voice.


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## whisperbaby22 (Jan 25, 2013)

How exciting. Looks like it's coming along real nice.


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## Comfortably Numb (Jul 16, 2013)

Thank you for sharing - great video. Seems to be lots of work, but is shaping up really well. I suppose the next video would have the horses in there as well?


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

Boys got some time on the track today! Still need to do a few odds and ends but it is largely up and running. Since there is still grass to be eaten down, they got about 4 hours today then lured back into the dry lot. 
They were a hoot to watch. The stretches are long enough for them to get some good gallops in.


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

A few pics. Every time they ran around I pulled out my camera to get a pic, but then they would stop to graze again.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

karliejaye said:


> Sue, I keep thinking about those trees. What soil types and depth do they require? I need to do some research to check on invasive status, but it would be nice to have something besides juniper here.


Oh, sorry, I completely missed that post!

Tagasaste is from the Canary Islands and needs sandy soil, at least the top metre or so. We get about 900mm of rainfall a year where we are, but it grows with far less, under 400mm a year. As long as it can establish during the rains and get its roots down to the water table (which it will do within six months or so), it's laughing. It's a common permaculture and alley farming plant here - used to graze sheep and cattle during the otherwise dry season. When the grass is dried up, it's nice to have green, high-protein fodder.

Weed potential - well, any seedlings in unfenced areas get instantly devoured by livestock, which is why tagasaste needs fencing to protect it. (Graze either off an alley line - just the bits they can reach without getting zapped by a hot wire - or grow in dedicated paddocks and crash graze, then rest and let regrow before the livestock starts stripping bark. Regrows quickly).

Weed potential is mostly through birds carrying seed. But, if the sandy areas are mostly under cultivation, and the remnant vegetation is mostly on non-sandy soils / has rock crusts near the surface, that's handy as the tagasaste won't grow in heavy or rocky soils.

Also you can prune the tagasaste back heavily before or during flowering to prevent seed set, and feed the clippings to your grateful livestock. 

Acacias vary - just google the species.


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## MsCuriosity (Apr 20, 2015)

Thank-you for this post. I'm currently looking for 'horse' land and have wondered about taking arid land and making pasture from it. 
I'll be watching your progress!


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

MsCuriousity, glad you've found this helpful! That was my hope.

https://youtu.be/oOuwZFyrndg

New video, not much different than the last one but hubby wanted one with the fence done and the horses on it.


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

As suspected, the track is no longer grass! I had planned on that, really. Now that there isn't much forage for the boys they are not moving around it quite as much as they were initially. They still go out and run a few laps and Chief loves to play on the mound of rocks and fill.
I need to get feeding areas set up in multiple areas. I know some paddock paradise proponents claim the added movement alleviates the effects of ingesting sand, but I don't completely buy that claim, and don't want to risk it. My plan is to make a few areas with either stall mats or pea gravel framed in a low threshold of wood. These areas will have hay in small mesh hay nets.

But for now they are happy. Wood chewing has all but ceased  They have a new favorite activity: one stands on one side of the fence that divides the drylot from the track, and the other boy takes the other side and they bite eachother over the fence, or Cruiser likes to nip Chief's legs from under it. I have no clue why, they can walk 10 feet and actually be next to eachother, but for some reason, this is their new game.


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## Comfortably Numb (Jul 16, 2013)

Is there any update please since after the feeding areas were set up? How many of them and how spaced are they? Does that make them move around or do they stay at one spot until they finish and only then go on to the next? Salt/mineral licks?
Just guessing here, but I suppose if water is away from their food/licks that maight make them move more - is this the case?


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

Comfortably Numb said:


> Is there any update please since after the feeding areas were set up? How many of them and how spaced are they? Does that make them move around or do they stay at one spot until they finish and only then go on to the next? Salt/mineral licks?
> Just guessing here, but I suppose if water is away from their food/licks that maight make them move more - is this the case?


I don't have all the feeding stations up yet, but have come to a compromise in the meantime:
They are getting 2 hay nets with 2-3 flakes of a mixed hay in the run in shed twice a day, over mats. This is close to the water (50 feet or so). They also are getting a big net full of bluegrass straw for ad lib eating next to the hay shed (rummaged up a few more mats to circle a tree and hang the bag from the tree). Minerals are in one far corner by the road, loose salt in another. 
So far with this set up, they stand and eat about 70% of the hay, then get bored and wander over to the hay shed and nibble straw. Then they go nap. I haven't actually seen them at the salt or the minerals (I see them in the general area, not actually consuming, though) but I have seen lick divots in the block and have had to refill the salt bucket 3 times, so I know they are using them. I rarely see them in the same location if I check every 30 minutes, unless they just got their "good" hay (still under 10% NSC). 

Additionally, 2 trim cycles in a row now, Chief has not had any work needed and Cruiser has just needed a tiny bit of help. They are moving quite a bit. :gallop::runninghorse2:


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## Comfortably Numb (Jul 16, 2013)

Thanks for the update!
Sounds really good - for me the hooves news is especially pleasing - wish my girl could leave the box behind and have a similar set-up. Well, one day, hopefully.


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