# Friendship Training does work



## gigem88 (May 10, 2011)

If you get the results you want, then that is all that matters!


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

what do you do with your horse for friendship training ?


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

There seems to have been a topic on this already, where many shared their views - 
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/friendship-training-89166/


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

i was just curious as to what the OP did that helped her and her horse so much.


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

Yeah, I'd like to read that too. Just seems to be something quite controversial, so I'm a bit sceptical, but as long as it has worked for the OP, it's fine with me.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

As much as I love my horse, I REALLY don't want to go through mutual grooming.

I'll do more research when I get home, but this sounds to me like another one of these 'humanising' horses... do horse's understand a friend concept, or what 'friends' are?


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## FrancesB (Jan 26, 2012)

The previous discussion seemed to be by people who had read the website but not actually done the program.  I agree it looks a bit 'out there' but it really does work. It is not so much humanising horses as recognising we are both living creatures & have some things in common.

Horses can develop friendships/pair bonds/become horse buddies if they are kept in a herd environment; and in fact one of mine has a 'relationship' like this with one of the riding school horses - they hang out together all the time, graze together, groom each other. 

 No need for mutual grooming with your horse, I think most people who do the program probably gently discourage that.  I would...

There is much more info on the website, but basically the aim of the program is to take away all the stress we may be accidentally putting on a horse by making their living conditions as natural as possible (24 hour turnout, able to interact naturally with other horses, feeding hay based diet, etc) and using positive reinforcement (ie rewarding for doing the right thing) rather than pressure and release to teach the horse. You also teach the horse some basic voice and hand cues - back, stand, move over, come, etc which you initially use for groundwork and later transfer to mounted cues. The horse is taught in a large open area - not a round pen or small yard - so you don't accidentally activate their fight or fight response.

It's not for everyone. To do it you have to be able to have your horse live in fairly natural conditions ie 24 hour turnout with other horses, which is problematic for many people. It also usually requires you don't ride the horse until you have finished the training - the idea here is you are both much safer if you develop good communication on the ground and then transfer it to ridden activity. I understand this may make it look unattractive, but at my age (I'm 51) a fall hurts and I'm happy to invest some time to get a safe riding partner.

My gelding was prone to being unpredictably spooky and very stubborn and resistant and was beginning to become dominant with me on the ground. My riding instructor was training him for me, he would go along fine for weeks and then 'blow up' and the blow-ups were increasing in strength - no bucking or rearing but becoming very spooky and continuously shying, jerking his head hard enough to break the instructors finger, etc. The change in him since I have been doing FT is remarkable - he willingly comes to me and tries to do as I ask, even backing up on request which he wouldn't do before, his whole posture has softened so that he looks happy and relaxed, the dominating behaviour towards me has disappeared. My biggest surprise was that I have become much more confident with him and all of the other horses; I didn't realise how much fear I was carrying with me until it left.

From talking with people on the Yahoo group FT is fantastic for horses with problems, and if you have one who you get on well with it deepens the relationship. All I can say is I'm delighted with how my horse is progressing, I wish I'd known about it ages ago.

Regards
Frances


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

FrancesB said:


> There is much more info on the website, but basically the aim of the program is to take away all the stress we may be accidentally putting on a horse by making their living conditions *as natural as possible* (24 hour turnout, able to interact naturally with other horses, feeding hay based diet, etc)


The above is just basic good horsekeeping - any horseman will tell you that it is healthiest for the horse, physically and mentally, to be kept as naturally as possible; "as possible" being the key phrase. I'd hazard a guess that for 90% of horse owners (in the US, anyway) a completely natural state is out of the question for one reason or another. If mine were out 24/7/365 they would die of exposure before the weather broke in the spring. One horse in the barn physically cannot be barefoot - even not being ridden he will destroy a set of shoes in 8 weeks, and wear his bare hooves too short to nail to or risk trimming in under a month. A human riding and interacting with the horse period is highly unnatural.



FrancesB said:


> using positive reinforcement (ie rewarding for doing the right thing) rather than pressure and release to teach the horse. You also teach the horse some basic voice and hand cues - back, stand, move over, come, etc which you initially use for groundwork and later transfer to mounted cues.


Again, this is basic good horsemanship. I would be very interested to hear how Friendship Training Positive Reinforcement compares/contrasts specifically with pressure and release. Pressure and release rewards the horse (via release of pressure - not necessarily even a physical touch; my fella responds to a glance and a shift of posture 9 times out of 10) for doing the right thing. I'd be very curious to hear a point-by-point comparison on that point. :wink:

Glad that you've found a training method that works for you and your horse!!


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Thanks, Frances, for sharing a program that's done wonders for the relationship between you & your horse! 

I can see that it's not far, if at all different, from Parelli: in PNH, the Friendly Game is the most important game, the relationship is priority, & "getting it good" on the ground is the prerequisite for each student, regardless of age!


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

I have one question. How do you reward positive behaviour, when you can't put pressure on the horse to ask it do do something? I am picturing someone standing back, 10 foot away from the horse holding out a lump of sugar saying 'Please Mr horsey, would you pretty please with a cherry on top care to step backwards one step for me so I can pat you without having to put any pressure on you?'. 
Because horses certainly use a pressure-release system when they're out in a paddock together


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Kayty said:


> I am picturing someone standing back, 10 foot away from the horse holding out a lump of sugar saying 'Please Mr horsey, would you pretty please with a cherry on top care to step backwards one step for me so I can pat you without having to put any pressure on you?'.



My horse would want 5 cherries on the top, eat it then walk off to look at the fanny on the mare on the other side of the fence.

So much for that friendship (even if he is laid back and does what I want anyways)

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

I just don't understand the concept of "friendship" when horses themselves don't 'befriend' one another...they will form certain chains of respect for one another and THEN they will form certain bonds with each other out of those respect lines...you won't see the dominant mare, for example, bond or groom with the least dominant geldings or mares...there is no friendship involved with hroses, it is all about the line of respect...why do you think a lesser dominant mare or gelding will try really hard to dominate YOU the human? Because he has no one TO dominate in his natural herd!!!!! 

Earn his respect (you don't have to beat it into him...you can be as gentle as you can...but remember, another horse will kick another, to gain their respect...), but be as firm as necessary...THEN you will have a trusting partner...respect has to come first...trust comes later, out of that respect. He has to know he can trust you to lead him, or he WILL do all those things you described.


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

I agree, mom2pride. My horse treated me like nothing, he wasn't interested in any friendship, until I gained his respect. And no, I did not beat him. He is now my safest friend, although still sometimes tries to challenge my leadership and then I have to be as firm as necessary, and rainbows & butterflies will just get me into serious trouble. I suspect, that friendship training might work with some horses, but not with all. They differ.


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

I have trained horses from all ends of the spectrum...from fearful, to downright dangerous, and disrespectful...and gaining respect is ALWAYS my first goal, and with every horse it has ended up with a respectful working partner; most of the ones I have bought, I have never sold, atleast not until I outgrew them, or circumstances forced me to place them...those I have trained for others, I have not wanted to give back! Now how you go about gaining respect can be different...How I went about gaining respect with my current mare, who was shy, fearful, and more prone to run away, than over you, and was a lot quieter, than my previous horse, an extremely rude, pushy disrespectful Appy; My body language had to be emmensely quieter with my mare, than it did for the Appy, who would take an entire mile if you even gave him a centimeter of room. Building respect doesn't have to involve whips and crops, but the language does have to be clear and concise to the horse to understand, and sometimes it DOES have to be physical...and unlike dogs, horses, aren't as built up by positive reinforcement like treats, because unlike dogs, if they are uncomfortable, they will not eat a treat and forget what's bothering them...so if you run into a 'bad day', forget training at all; then what?


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## FrancesB (Jan 26, 2012)

I was very sceptical myself about 'friendship', as was just about everyone I talk to about it. But the people who have done FT were equally convinced it worked, which is why I decided to give it a go. It did help to explain some odd things about the herd at my riding school - certainly there was lots of evidence of dominance behaviour, but there were also pairs of horses between who dominance didn't seem to be an issue - boss mare & her best mate a low ranking gelding, a mid ranking mare and lower ranking gelding, the boss gelding and an old gelding who did not seem to dominate or be dominated by anyone. The pairs spent most of their time together, ate together, mutually groomed - within each pair we couldn't see any signs of who was boss, there wasn't any dominance behaviour we observed. FT explained what these odd pairs might be - they call them 'preferred associates' or say they have a 'peer attachment'. 

When I first met my gelding he liked me when he didn't seem to like other people - I bought him because he was so obviously unhappy with the person who had the use of him. Before I owned him I was spending time without asking anything of him apart from one test ride, when he went so beautifully no-one could believe it - this baulky stubborn spooky horse did everything I asked willingly. Then I bought him and began being the boss - gently, but still boss - because this is what everyone was telling me I had to do to get his respect and develop a good relationship. Instead he gradually became more resistant and gradually began to treat me similarly to how he treated everyone else, although generally with less force when he disagreed. I accidentally discovered that if he disagreed with a request, removing all pressure and waiting a bit and then asking very very softly maximised the chance he would do as I asked, where maintaining or increasing pressure, as my riding instructor suggested or did when he rode him, just escalated things and made him more obstinate. This was one of the things that made me think the FT approach might work for us. The other thing was the experiences of the people in the FT yahoo group - some were very experienced horse people who had successfully used a variety of training methods until they came across a horse for whom nothing worked but they didn't want to give up on, and tried FT in desperation, and it worked.


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## FrancesB (Jan 26, 2012)

Sorry, I missed part of your question. The training is done in as big and open space as possible - a paddock, not a round yard - so that the horse isn't under pressure and you don't accidentally activate the flight or fight response. 

Tries are initially rewarded with a food treat or scratch in favourite scratchy spot and 'Good boy!'; many people find that after a while the praise alone seems to be enough of a reward, the horses seem actively to want to learn / play games with their person. If the horse doesn't want to do it that day, then I just accept that. I know that sounds laughable, but my experience, and that of the people in the FT group, is that this doesn't make the horse decide he knows how to get out of work.

The only time pressure is used is to stop the horse from doing something that might hurt the human - biting or kicking. Similarly to many other programs there are several levels of 'no', from a gentle 'you are doing it wrong' or 'please don't do that' to a very strong 'DONT YOU DARE EVER THINK ABOUT DOING THAT AGIN!!!'

I know this all sounds odd... but it works...


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

I'd really appreciate if you'd give an example of how should a person, who's doing FT with his horse, react to, let's say, a disrespectful horse that tries to show his dominance with a charge or rearing? 
I'm really not trying to be overly sceptical, just interested on how this is supposed to work.


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## FrancesB (Jan 26, 2012)

LOL, thank you Kayty and Spyder, they are very funny images. I can just them asking for cherries...

You start by teaching them the cues up close and rewarding them with food treats or scratches and praising them, and gradually the praise becomes reward in itself. I gather a similar thing happens with people who clicker train horses.

There does seem to be evidence that positive rewards work well to train horses, but they have to be in a space where they feel safe to learn.


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## Spook (Jan 25, 2012)

A horse that would charge or rear at someone, i find, are generally not disrespectful. Dangerous, yes. Often these behaviours have a source (past mistreatment or handling by humans themselves) And if and when you can determine the source of the behaviour then you can deal with the horse more effectively. Unfortunately this is not always easy.

And yes I think horses do develop friendships. They are intellegent creatures and although herd "pecking" order has a lot to do with bonds between horse/horse, human/horse. I like to think of my horse as a friend. 
In my younger years I would neigh and act like a horse (run around, toss my head and my horse would reply and "play". We would hoon around the paddock together.... im sure you all think im a nob-head.


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## FrancesB (Jan 26, 2012)

"Pressure and release rewards the horse (via release of pressure - not necessarily even a physical touch; my fella responds to a glance and a shift of posture 9 times out of 10) for doing the right thing. I'd be very curious to hear a point-by-point comparison on that point." 


 Gee, I'm getting a bit out of my depth here. Certainly pressure and release methods work and that's why people use them. I agree they can be very subtle and can lead to very good relationships - that's basically the approach my riding instructor took with his horses, and they all got on well with him and did as he asked, and certainly trusted him - if they were laying down out of the wind and he walked up they felt no need to get up, but willingly come when called and so on.

My understanding of pressure and release is you apply pressure until the horse starts to do what you want (a try); depending on what method you are using it might be continuous light pressure or it might be gradually escalating pressure and repeated through several phases (ie light medium heavy, light medium heavy). Instantly the horse begins to give the correct response pressure is dropped; their reward is the release. With positive rewards in FT you ask the horse to do something with a hand gesture which is I guess to help them work out what you want - I guess that is a form of very mild pressure - and as soon as they do it you say 'good boy' and give them a treat or scratch in their favourite itchy spot. You do this in an open space where the horse feels safe and unpressured. For example, to teach my boy to back we were in his home paddock and he had no halter or lead on. I started by standing in front of him (within easy treat giving distance) and asking him to back in a conversational voice and giving a small hand gesture at the same time. I kept asking him and gesturing and didn't increase the intensity D we must have looked a sight!). After... I don't know, thirty seconds or a minute or so, he moved his weight backwards (although not his feet); I interpreted this as a try and said 'Good Boy!' very enthusiastically and gave him a bit of carrot. After he ate his carrot I repeated the process, this time he responded faster and took a tiny step back; more enthusiastic praise on my part and bit of carrot for him. I only do the training for a few minutes at a time. Now he knows what 'back' means, and it is very handy for when I want him to move back from a gate or something; he does it willingly, doesn't get a treat if I have asked him for a practical reason (eg to close the gate)but always gets an enthusiastic 'Good boy!'.  I have discovered that while he will back up for a practical reason when other people are around, if I ask him just to show off ("Hey, look at this cool thing Jerry has learnt!) he looks at me and I swear he smiles and stays planted firmly where he Is - I guess he doesn't want me getting too big for my britches... 


Nothing like a horse to keep you humble hey?


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

> im sure you all think im a nob-head.


Not at all. I do that myself almost every time I'm with my horse.  Maybe my question was not the most successful. I was thinking of the cases when a horse acts up totally different from his usual manners, let's say, a new horse whom his owner doesn't know that well yet. If the owner is mainly into FT, how such a unexpected case would be handled correctly by FT principles?


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## FrancesB (Jan 26, 2012)

Saranda said:


> I'd really appreciate if you'd give an example of how should a person, who's doing FT with his horse, react to, let's say, a disrespectful horse that tries to show his dominance with a charge or rearing?
> I'm really not trying to be overly sceptical, just interested on how this is supposed to work.



That is a really good question. There is a big emphasis in FT on keeping both the person and horse safe, and to this end you train in as big and open an area as possible so less likely to accidentally activate their flight or fight response, and also spend a fair bit of time before you start training just hanging out with the horse and sharing feed with them so they start to see you as something that might be safe - sort of a 'settling in' period, where you stop doing all the usual training with them & they hopefully start to see you as different. 

As far as I understand if they are doing something that is not likely to hurt you - rearing at a distance or running around bucking or whatever, that is just them expressing their opinion and you ignore it and keep asking for what you want. If they are doing something that is threatening you - attempting to bite or kick or actually charging - you tell them no with as much force as needed and, if the act is serious enough (which a serious bite attempt or a charge would certainly be) you send them away and keep them away. 

One of the people in the FT group had a very aggressive and dangerous former racehorse - I gather he was extremely dangerous and had attacked her friends and also kicked her in the head (I am hugely impressed she had the guts to stick with him), and FT turned him completely around. If I had a dangerous horse to deal with I'd be getting lots of advice from the man who runs the program.


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## FrancesB (Jan 26, 2012)

Saranda said:


> Not at all. I do that myself almost every time I'm with my horse.  Maybe my question was not the most successful. I was thinking of the cases when a horse acts up totally different from his usual manners, let's say, a new horse whom his owner doesn't know that well yet. If the owner is mainly into FT, how such a unexpected case would be handled correctly by FT principles?


The owner would give him time to settle in and then go through the program with him. It's hard to explain but it kind of teaches you a shared language so you understand each other. Kind of like a hearing person learning a sign language so you can communicate with a deaf person - you can still hear and they are still deaf, but you can understand each other and life is a lot less frustrating.


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## FrancesB (Jan 26, 2012)

Northern said:


> Thanks, Frances, for sharing a program that's done wonders for the relationship between you & your horse!
> 
> I can see that it's not far, if at all different, from Parelli: in PNH, the Friendly Game is the most important game, the relationship is priority, & "getting it good" on the ground is the prerequisite for each student, regardless of age!



Hmmm, I'm not sure - I think in PNH the goal is to become a leader? A friendly one, but still leader, and pressure and release are the basis of some of the PNH games? In FT the goal is to be more of a mentor/teacher - human still has final say where necessary for safety. And pressure is only used to stop the horse doing something that might hurt the human teacher - eg biting.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Or, on the other extreme from what Saranda mentioned, how would you deal with a horse that just didn't like people, didn't trust them, and had no desire to be around them or make friends _at all_. I only ask because I have one of these on my property and no matter how nice you are or how many treats you give him, he will take the offered treats....hesitantly, and then go back to the opposite side of the paddock and basically ignore you. He avoids you if you even think of advancing toward him.

And, just for reference, I know it is not due to mishandling as he was completely feral when I got him as a yearling and my Dad and I have been the only ones to ever handle him. He's, I think, 7 now. It is a fairly common thing for horses of his breeding to be this way. A good portion of his siblings and half siblings have never been broke because nobody can even get close to them.


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## Spook (Jan 25, 2012)

Saranda said:


> Not at all. I do that myself almost every time I'm with my horse.  Maybe my question was not the most successful. I was thinking of the cases when a horse acts up totally different from his usual manners, let's say, a new horse whom his owner doesn't know that well yet. If the owner is mainly into FT, how such a unexpected case would be handled correctly by FT principles?


sorry, 
I don't follow FT religiously but in resonse to such a case I'd reckon you should just get the fritz out of the horse's way.- not much help.


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

As far as I understand, it seems that I can relate many things I do and how I perceive my horse with FT, however, not purely - he's the type of guy who will often challenge you in a way that says "Hey, I feel good around you and I'm your friend, but no offense - we should be doing what I want. Right now." So I use pressure-release techniques with him and they seem to work just fine, as he seems to accept and enjoy such communication. But it's really interesting how different approaches can be used on different horses.


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## FrancesB (Jan 26, 2012)

smrobs said:


> Or, on the other extreme from what Saranda mentioned, how would you deal with a horse that just didn't like people, didn't trust them, and had no desire to be around them or make friends _at all_. I only ask because I have one of these on my property and no matter how nice you are or how many treats you give him, he will take the offered treats....hesitantly, and then go back to the opposite side of the paddock and basically ignore you. He avoids you if you even think of advancing toward him.]
> 
> 
> That is a really good question and again, a bit out of my league because I'm pretty new to this myself. My impression is other people have gotten through to horses like him by going through FT. Part of it is about setting a consistent pattern - turn up same time same place every day to share food & then, when you get to it, to do the training. It also works if you can't get there every day, just takes longer. Part of it is about only using pressure to stop them doing something that could hurt you. For some horses it can take a long time. others progress quickly. Maybe check out the FT website (Friendship Training) or join their yahoo group? They are quite friendly & there are a lot of interesting discussions.
> ...


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## chrisnscully (Apr 19, 2010)

Sounds to me as if FT is just positive reinforcement training - like clicker training is.

I will always use positive reinforcement where I can - but pressure & release plays its part.

The difference between them is that pressure & release is limiting, positive reinforcement isn't and thus has greater potential to train. 

In handing a horse charging or one that is challenging you, I would use my arms and body posture to challenge back, so pressure just as between horses, but would then follow up with positive reinforcement when the horse stands quietly.

They are pretty bright and soon learn that acceptable behaviour earns a reward whereas unacceptable behaviour gets them nothing.

As for the "independent" horse then positive reinforcement does work over time - my horse was like that - but nearly 4 years later she comes when she sees me, follows me around loose and we do stuff together as a partnership - not really friends, just two sentient beings that like being close.


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## Spook (Jan 25, 2012)

smrobs, is this horse paddocked with others? You mentioned you have had other 'ferel' horses. If he? is paddocked with these other horses it may be making it harder to gain his trust. Humans have a different scent then another horse. ultimately we are "predators" and the herd instinct is natrually to run away. You say he is approachable with treats, so he does have an element of trust - a start. You could try keeping him in a seperate paddock (or with only one other companion) and spending ALOT of time with him. Give him a reason to want human company other then another horse. hope that makes sense


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

> You could try keeping him in a seperate paddock


I'm sorry if I'm getting this wrong, but isn't this actually pressuring a horse into relationship, not letting a friendship to evolve naturally, and against his natural needs?


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

very interesting, thanks for all the explainations !


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

I still see what you have described, to be a pressure-release system. Pressure does not need to be physical contact, just like the dominate horse in a relationship can simply give 'a' look at the submissive horse, and the submissive horse moves away. When the submissive horse moves away, the dominate horse doesn't look at him anymore. 

So by standing in front of a horse, saying 'back' and waving your hands around a bit, that IS pressure. The horse is wondering what on earth you are doing and steps back. You then stop waving and give him a pat - release of pressure. 
How is this, any different from any other pressure-release system? 

Pressure-release does not need to be an escalation in pressure, there are many ways to skin a cat. 
Some horses respond best to escalate pressure, others learn best if you ask, then back off, and ask again, like your own horse. 
It is STILL pressure-release. I don't know of any single training method that does not use some form of the pressure-release system --- because this is what works for horses. They put some kind of pressure on one another, move away from the pressure, and then they are comfortable. You cannot ask a horse to do anything, without putting some degree of pressure on them. It is not possible.


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## FrancesB (Jan 26, 2012)

chrisnscully said:


> Sounds to me as if FT is just positive reinforcement training - like clicker training is.]
> 
> My understanding is FT has much in common with positive reinforcement training, but that the kind of relationship it develops is different. There are a couple of people in the FT group who had used CT and positive reinforcement extensively before FT, and they tell me FT 'gets you to a different place'.
> 
> ...


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## FrancesB (Jan 26, 2012)

Kayty said:


> So by standing in front of a horse, saying 'back' and waving your hands around a bit, that IS pressure. The horse is wondering what on earth you are doing and steps back. You then stop waving and give him a pat - release of pressure.
> How is this, any different from any other pressure-release system? ]
> 
> Hmmmm, I see what you mean, maybe, it could be described as very light pressure, not sure. The hand gestures are very small. Maybe it's pressure & release & positive reinforcement, as he gets the treat as well?
> ...


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## mudpie (Jul 15, 2011)

I don't know about friendship training, but Mudpie sure is my best friend


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Spook said:


> smrobs, is this horse paddocked with others? You mentioned you have had other 'ferel' horses. If he? is paddocked with these other horses it may be making it harder to gain his trust. Humans have a different scent then another horse. ultimately we are "predators" and the herd instinct is natrually to run away. You say he is approachable with treats, so he does have an element of trust - a start. You could try keeping him in a seperate paddock (or with only one other companion) and spending ALOT of time with him. Give him a reason to want human company other then another horse. hope that makes sense


Yes, he is paddocked with others but they are a long way from feral LOL, I nearly have to beat them off with a stick when I go into the paddock as they all come up looking for scratches.

The funny thing about this horse...he _is_ broke and is a very nice saddle horse. You can trust him...mostly (he's a challenging personality but an experienced rider gets along great with him), and he does his job, he just prefers to be left alone. He doesn't even like to be groomed.

We've had more success with just accepting him as he is rather than working our butts off trying for a goal that will likely never happen. When it's time to work, we go to work. When we're done, we're done. I don't do him like I do my others and spend a few minutes after a ride just scratching and petting on them. Spending more time with him just makes him grumpy and more standoffish/hard to catch LOL.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Spook said:


> smrobs, is this horse paddocked with others? You mentioned you have had other 'ferel' horses. If he? is paddocked with these other horses it may be making it harder to gain his trust. Humans have a different scent then another horse. ultimately we are "predators" and the herd instinct is natrually to run away. You say he is approachable with treats, so he does have an element of trust - a start. You could try keeping him in a seperate paddock (or with only one other companion) and spending ALOT of time with him. Give him a reason to want human company other then another horse. hope that makes sense


Spook, my paint mare is like a horse smrobs mentioned. My parents feed her every day, give treats, and can approach most of the time, but she doesn't want to socialize with them, be groomed, and even with treats she can pass on it if she doesn't want to come close. I have her for 5.5 years already BTW. Some horses are just like that. They also have different personalities (like people).


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

KV, I bet she and Pokey would get along like peas and carrots :lol:. They would probably be very happy to ignore humans together.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

FrancesB said:


> ... In FT the goal is to be more of a mentor/teacher - human still has final say where necessary for safety. And pressure is only used to stop the horse doing something that might hurt the human teacher - eg biting.


 *If you want to do lots of things both on the ground & in saddle (which rightly develops the horse gymnastically to carry the rider most stably/efficiently, for whatever discipline/job the horse will then take on) the human has to be the leader. Horses have no 50/50 relationships; they're always looking for a worthy leader; he's not optimally happy unless he understands whether you're the leader or he is. For the horse to refuse you in front of your friends is truly deleterious for the relationship, because he's alpha there, & he never should be. It's 51%/49% partnership, not master/slave, but it must be that ratio, or you'll regret it. I'm saying this to help; I understand that the backing off is what your horse needed & he's lucky to have found someone who saw that he needed the backing off.*

Hmmmm, I see what you mean, maybe, it could be described as very light pressure, not sure. The hand gestures are very small. Maybe it's pressure & release & positive reinforcement, as he gets the treat as well? *I've not been to the site, but your assessment seems correct.*[/QUOTE]

Pressure-release is what horses do with each other; they understand it, so it's not bad. Yet there's another factor to good horsemanship, which is "feel". People want to leave pressure-release & go on only "feel", but you need both. The mother horse feels of her foal, flows with her foal, then her foal feels that sympathetic vibe & feels back to her, & then she begins to shape that receptivity by pressure-release. The alpha of the group pressures the whole herd, as well.

Wonderful story of you & horse so far; Good Luck!


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## chrisnscully (Apr 19, 2010)

Kayty said:


> I don't know of any single training method that does not use some form of the pressure-release system --- because this is what works for horses. They put some kind of pressure on one another, move away from the pressure, and then they are comfortable. You cannot ask a horse to do anything, without putting some degree of pressure on them. It is not possible.


Clicker training can do just that. Hold out a target - the horse looks at it, explores it, touches it with its nose, you make a click sound and give the horse a treat (food, scratch, whatever the horse likes). Hold the target up again and repeat - the horse soon learns that behaviour of touching target is followed by a click and a treat.It associates the noise of the click with the treat. Stand in a school with the horse loose - whenever it does something like turn left click and treat, then add the verbal cue "left" and when the horse moves left, click and treat. Soon the horse will move left on the verbal cue.

A simple example - but there is no pressure involved in the process - you wait for the action you want and then reinforce it with click to mark exactly what you want and follow with the treat. Free shaping with clicker is totally non pressure/release.

Pressure release is useful in speeding up the training process - so if you use pressure on the chest to move a horse back at the same time as click & treating and the voice cue of "back" then you can quickly drop the pressure/release and just use the cue with a click and treat when the horse responds correctly to the cue.

Tricks? No - you can use clicker training to get you horse to stand still, to bring the saddle level with a mounting block, to lower its head, to ground tie and most useful you can use it under saddle to train any movement you want. It simply says "yes" to the horse exactly at the time the wanted behaviour happens, whether by accident or design.

And not all horses move away from pressure, some , including mine, move into it!


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

smrobs said:


> KV, I bet she and Pokey would get along like peas and carrots :lol:. They would probably be very happy to ignore humans together.


Bahahahaha... Send him my way! 

As for my mare we tried really hard, but she is just not interested in socializing. She came from almost feral environment (I got her as a long yearling), so may be it's part of it. Plus she's just strange all around. 

My qh (who came unhandled but had enough of human socializing before I got her, also as a long yearling) always shows polite interest for as long as the parents or visitors have treats(!), then she doesn't care anymore.


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## FrancesB (Jan 26, 2012)

Northern said ... the human has to be the leader. Horses have no 50/50 relationships; they're always looking for a worthy leader; he's not optimally happy unless he understands whether you're the leader or he is. For the horse to refuse you in front of your friends is truly deleterious for the relationship, because he's alpha there, & he never should be. It's 51%/49% partnership, not master/slave, but it must be that ratio, or you'll regret it. 

Pressure-release is what horses do with each other; they understand it, so it's not bad. Yet there's another factor to good horsemanship, which is "feel". People want to leave pressure-release & go on only "feel", but you need both...

I appreciate what you are saying and agree the human has to have the final say in situations where it's important. I spent a lot of time discussing this with the others in the FT forum before I started the program- their advice was that if it's not an important thing it is ok to accept the horse saying no - it doesn't escalate into anything. I'm thinking that it might have something to do with the strength of the person's intent and the horses ability to gauge that strength of intent. When I ask my boy to back up away from a gate or come away from a vehicle or something, I know it is important he do so, and I think perhaps he reads that importance and does as I ask - accepts my leadership so to speak. But when I know it is not really an important thing - like showing my friend how he would back up (basically showing off) I suspect he can also read that it isn't really an important thing, and so decided he didn't really have to back up.

I'm not sure I understand what 'feel' is, but it might explain what went wrong after I bought him. Before I bought him I spent three weeks hanging out with him every day, and when I was grooming or leading or whatever I was very gentle and careful to make sure I had his permission for everything and that he was comfortable with everything I asked, and he was comfortable and much more willing and relaxed with me than anyone else. That gentleness is my natural style of interacting with pretty much everything, and it usually works, but it can be slow. When I bought him I began 'being the boss' - a gentle one but still the boss - because that is what everyone was telling me I needed to be to establish a good relationship with him. So I insisted with gradually increasing pressure until he did what I asked. It seemed to work for them and their horses. LOL, I forgot to notice it hadn't worked for them with him... Anyway, I wasn't all that comfortable being the boss, and I think that did two things - I lost that soft 'asking for permission' which had made him feel safe with me and trust me in the first place, and he would have been able to read my discomfort so I probably looked weak as well. So then I just looked like a weak version of everyone else he didn't like.

The FT approach is much more in line with my natural style, so there is no longer that gap between interaction style and the kind of person I am. It has given me the confidence and patience to ask for what I want, to not be bothered if he says no - to either accept it if it wasn't important or to calmly say 'no, this is important, I have to insist'. Because I don't see a 'no' as a leadership challenge he doesn't turn it into one - does that make sense? Being calm and unruffled seem to be very important to working with him - I guess with any horse but particularly with him - any hint of nerves or aggression or frustration and he responds with the same. FT somehow gives me that strength. The person who was training him for me said he was by far the most stubborn and determined horse he had ever met, and that he was the slowest to trust of any he had worked with. I guess this is why the very slow calm approach FT gives works so well with him.

Thank you for the discussion, it has been very interesting.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Nice post, Frances! It is true of PNH also, that when a horse tries to do the opposite of what you ask (like go the opposite way than you asked in the circling game), we don't act like Nazis about it. We allow it, for the give-&-take of the relationship, & then when they see that, they start to WANT to offer you what you'd like. 

Great job in reading this horse & giving him the friendliness that he so needed! As long as 1% is taken from his side & is on your side instead, you're good to go!


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## chrisnscully (Apr 19, 2010)

Sorry but I don't believe that alpha horse is the only way horses lead - if you read Mark Raschid he talks about two types of herd leader - the ones that use aggression and pressure to assert authority and the ones that are followed by others simply because they are trusted and respected as leaders.

It is the latter kind of leader I want to be with my horse - I don't often use pressure on her but she accepts my leadership because she wants to - if she doesn't it is usually no big deal. I don't accept it has to be a 51/49 partnership, in my eyes it is an unconditional partnership - sometimes she leads, sometimes I do - horses for courses! Trust and respect is the key - not authority!


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## FrancesB (Jan 26, 2012)

chrisnscully;1331476 Mark Raschid talks about two types of herd leader - the ones that use aggression and pressure to assert authority and the ones that are followed by others simply because they are trusted and respected as leaders.[/QUOTE said:


> Hmmm, sounds like FT is helping me to develop into the second kind of leader.


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## chrisnscully (Apr 19, 2010)

Good - you will get more out of a horse (or person!) that follows you willingly than you will out of a horse (or person!) that follows you out of fear!


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

your presence is, to the horse, pressure.


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## chrisnscully (Apr 19, 2010)

christopher said:


> your presence is, to the horse, pressure.


Really? To a horse that is frightened of you, maybe. 

To a horse that WANTS to be with you, your presence is joy.

Sorry, but people have been brainwashed into believing a lot of rubbish about horses - I am sad for them, they will never experience the sheer thrill of working with horses that bond with a human.

Watch Jean Francois Pignon and his horses working totally loose on the beach - if they were under pressure they would move away from it surely?


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## chrisnscully (Apr 19, 2010)

Also watch Klaus Hempfling work with a totally loose horse with every opportunity to go and hide miles away from him -







You want to pressure horses into doing what you want? When you could have a loyal willing partner? No brainer!


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

On the two types of herd leaders: when a cougar is perceived, who takes the lead of these two? The one that seems like nothing more than a bully, according to Rashid's description, or the one who's trusted in some way(s)?

Jean-Francois has a thin crop in the video, & Klaus has what looks to be a longe whip plus a coiled lariat in his video. Pressure-free, they're not! The pressure, once again, is not bad; it's innately understood by horses. It's just to be used as gently as possible (but as firmly as necessary).


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

chrisnscully said:


> if they were under pressure they would move away from it surely?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKjEEYyQqPk


unless they had been conditioned to respond differently. which is not at all difficult and doesn't really involve any degree of friendship and is a more deceptive (to on-lookers) way of pressuring horses into doing what you want, even in situations where there is every opportunity to go and hide miles away from you


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## chrisnscully (Apr 19, 2010)

Northern said:


> On the two types of herd leaders: when a cougar is perceived, who takes the lead of these two? The one that seems like nothing more than a bully, according to Rashid's description, or the one who's trusted in some way(s)?
> 
> Jean-Francois has a thin crop in the video, & Klaus has what looks to be a longe whip plus a coiled lariat in his video. Pressure-free, they're not! The pressure, once again, is not bad; it's innately understood by horses. It's just to be used as gently as possible (but as firmly as necessary).


A herd with an alpha leader will follow it - a herd with a passive leader will follow that, You wouldn't have both types of leaders unless the herd was contained by fencing and split into 2 groups - however, when the cougar is spotted I guess they will all follow the guy who spotted it, cos they would be off first!

Both Jean & Klaus use the whips as extensions of their arm and communications. But surely it cannot be pressure if the horse doesn't see it that way and I would suggest that in both instances the horses are not behaving as if they are pressured at all. 



> unless they had been conditioned to respond differently. which is not at all difficult and doesn't really involve any degree of friendship and is a more deceptive (to on-lookers) way of pressuring horses into doing what you want, even in situations where there is every opportunity to go and hide miles away from you.


Those horses are motivated to be with their handlers - that isn't pressure - of course they are conditioned - they have been trained in a way that makes them trust the human and respond to them. For that very reason you cannot say that the presence of humans creates pressure for the horse - in these instances clearly it doesn't.

Both Klaus and Jean talk about lifelong friendship with their horses.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

chrisnscully said:


> A herd with an alpha leader will follow it - a herd with a passive leader will follow that, You wouldn't have both types of leaders unless the herd was contained by fencing and split into 2 groups - however, when the cougar is spotted I guess they will all follow the guy who spotted it, cos they would be off first!* OH! I thought Rashid was saying that both types exist in a single herd! *
> 
> Both Jean & Klaus use the whips as extensions of their arm and communications. *Same with Parelli, but Parelli d**oesn't claim the extension of the arm never pressures*. But surely it cannot be pressure if the horse doesn't see it that way *Klaus has said he uses the whip or lariat to protect himself if necessary, so in that case, it's used as pressure. It doesn't destroy his relationship with the horse, because the pressure was administered appropriately/the horse understands pressure. The horse, if you're kind/use as little pressure as possible, will then WANT to play with you, in which case it's just enjoyable partnership, yes.* ...
> 
> ...


 As do ALL good horsemen, Parelli included. I'm just concerned that some newbies are going to get hurt by dispensing with any appropriate pressure.


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## chrisnscully (Apr 19, 2010)

Northern said:


> As do ALL good horsemen, Parelli included. I'm just concerned that some newbies are going to get hurt by dispensing with any appropriate pressure.


Never suggested they should - pressure or punishment if applied at the right time are both essential tools - mine will get a tap on the nose if she goes to bite or a poke in the ribs if she moves over on me. All I am saying is that positive reinforcement is a better tool to shape behaviour and horses don't always respect/trust people who use pressure - the last thing you want is an alpha horse "fighting it out" with its handler!


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## FrancesB (Jan 26, 2012)

chrisnscully said:


> ...pressure or punishment if applied at the right time are both essential tools... positive reinforcement is a better tool to shape behaviour and horses don't always respect/trust people who use pressure - the last thing you want is an alpha horse "fighting it out" with its handler!


I agree. The 'No' in FT is pressure, and is used to stop the horse from doing something that may hurt the human. 

The emphasis on positive reinforcement seems to make the horse eager to learn, and rarely using pressure takes away the urge to pressure back. Jerry was beginning to show dominance towards me and I was beginning to get afraid of him, that has all stopped. 

I am amazed by the changes in the 4 weeks since 
we have actually started the FT exercises (we 
previously spent a loong time in 'pre-conditioning' for various reasons).

We are actually starting to communicate.... Not me telling and him 
doing, or him yelling for food or threatening to kick or bite, but him 
asking me to do something (leave the paddock gate open so he could run 
back there after our exercise because storms were around), and me 
understanding...

And he is beginning to want to learn, to find joy in it. Last night I 
was trying to teach him a new cue (move over), but he was mxing it up 
with back and stand. After a few attempts I thought it would be easier 
to explain if I stood near his shoulder, but by then he thought I 
wanted to play our walking backwards together game... I stopped after 
a few attemps because I thought I might just be being confusing. We 
were both relaxed and having heaps of fun and trying so hard to 
communicate, with much giggling (on my part) and kissing (initiated by 
him and reciprocated by me) on both our parts. It doesn't matter we 
didn't succeed, we can try again tonight when I've had more of a think 
about how to communicate what I want.

I realised this morning how very different last night was from when I 
previously tried to teach him something, even as recently as a few 
months ago, when he would be so afraid of doing the wrong thing that 
he was all stiff and anxious and could barely try. To see him last 
night, relaxed and with soft eyes and happily asking 'do you mean 
this?' 'Is it this?' - it was magic.

I could never have found my way to this without this program, I had no 
basis for ever thinking it existed. Maybe in Black Beauty or the 
movies, but not in real life.

Looking at the difference between him and the other three horses in 
the herd (one of who is mine) is like looking at night and day. They 
are loved and cared for and share the same living conditions and feed 
and are treated gently, but aren't doing the program (I have to learn 
with one before I can go through with others). He used to look like 
them, now he is so much more relaxed and confident and joyful. This 
has me questioning everything I have read or heard or seen about 
training, caring for, being with horses... 

Frances


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## Fargosgirl (Jan 12, 2012)

Frances, I am in the Parelli program and I can totally relate with your last post! There have been so may times I've asked my horse to do something and he will do something *way* different than what I had in mind, but he will seem so proud of himself that all I can do is laugh and reward him. After all he _*tried*_ didn't he? 

I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread because it is a refreshing departure from the usual "How to_ MAKE_ your horse do..." training advice. PNH is very similar to FT except we start a bit cruder by using as little or as much physical pressure as needed to convey our ideas to our horses as clearly as we can. The longer one stays with the program the subtler our approaches become, we refine until a glance, gesture, or "change in energy"(which I think has to be experienced to be understood) is all it takes to communicate our ideas to the horse. We NEVER punish our horses, we recognise that any response is either a horse _trying_ to do what we asked, or reacting from fear or confusion. Either way punishment would only damage any bond we have worked so hard to build. My two cents is: keep up with the FT! I think I will also be looking into it some myself. 

Thanks for posting, while I was familiar with Rashid, Pignon, Hempfling, and Nevzarov I had never heard of Friendship Training. I love learning new methods that are in line with my fundamental principals of training.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

Fargosgirl said:


> Frances, I am in the Parelli program and I can totally relate with your last post! There have been so may times I've asked my horse to do something and he will do something *way* different than what I had in mind, but he will seem so proud of himself that all I can do is laugh and reward him. After all he _*tried*_ didn't he?


even "not trying" is a form of "trying"


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## chrisnscully (Apr 19, 2010)

christopher said:


> even "not trying" is a form of "trying"


Lol - yes a horse that is not trying is very trying for the human :lol:


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## FrancesB (Jan 26, 2012)

Hmmm, Friendship Training seems to help the human relax and be confident as much as it helps the horse. Yesterday I had my second ride since Christmas on General (19 yo gelding, haven't done FT with him yet); he is a sweetie but also very 'goey' and I have never felt completely safe with him before. Yesterday was just magic. I am/was a bit of a timid rider and am afraid of heights, falling and speed, but none of that yesterday. For me that is pretty amazing.

FrancesB


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

nicely done


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## Hickory67 (Feb 18, 2012)

I haven't read up on FT, but from the descriptions here I'm doing a little of both, depending on the circumstances. I work on the "back" command and recalls in the open field with my mare, and always through hand gestures and voice. Where I have to use pressure/release is when she's on lead and gets pushy - then I have to be more stern and assertive.

The field work is coming along nicely. We're still in a battle of wills with the lead on until after I lunge her - then she's compliant.

At any rate, I am going to red up on FT some more and see what I can glean from it. I'm still building a relationship with my mare, so anything I can find to help it along...


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## Hickory67 (Feb 18, 2012)

Read up on it, both here and on the FT website. Interesting to see the disparity of perspectives on the subject - some strong opinions on both sides.


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## FrancesB (Jan 26, 2012)

I thought people might be interested in seeing the kind of relationship I am developing with Jerry (dark horse). When I started this I was often a bit scared of him, certainly rarely confident with him, and he frequently threatened to bite. And he would never have come out of the paddock on request if there was someone strange about.







Frances


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

I would still be careful, judging from his demeanor, but you have successfully trained him to come for food, that's for sure!:wink:


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## FrancesB (Jan 26, 2012)

Food is certainly a big part of it at this stage, we have a long way to go yet. Still, it's an enormous improvement over where we were.

Could you explain a little more about what you meant by his demeanour? I'm not quite sure I understood what you meant. 
Cheers
Frances


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

He looks very pleasant when food is involved. Not so much when it is not. I am not sure i would turn my back on him as much as you do, that is for sure.

He tends to have his ears back at times. I am not crazy about that for sure, but that is just me. He doesn't give me the feeling that he is as trustworthy as you give him credit for, but then-I am pretty cautious.


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## FrancesB (Jan 26, 2012)

Ok, thanks. I have looked at the vid again and he does have his ears back a fair bit; I interpret them as 'thinking ears' rather than 'angry ears'.  I have a pretty good bully detector and don't get any feeling of threat of him these days; I certainly used to. 

It is very interesting comparing interpretations.
Cheers
f


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## FrancesB (Jan 26, 2012)

I had an interesting discussion with my old riding instructor tonight; he hasn't seen Jerry or me since before Christmas. He thought the video I posted showed a big increase in communication between us and that we understand each other much better than when he last saw us, and that whatever I am doing is working.

He was pretty sceptical about FT working before I started this, partly because he didn't see how something like this could be taught over the web and partly because he was concerned for my safety given how challenging Jerry could sometimes be. So for him to say he sees a big improvement is pretty special.

 I look forward to showing continued improvement.


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## Soulofhorse (Jan 7, 2012)

Where can I find out more about the Friendship Training? Some link, official website, youtube channel, anything?


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## FrancesB (Jan 26, 2012)

Soulofhorse said:


> Where can I find out more about the Friendship Training? Some link, official website, youtube channel, anything?


The main website is at Friendship Training
There are links to videos from there.


There is also a Yahoo discussion group at Friendship_Training : Friendship_Training
It is an open list, anyone interested in finding kinder gentler ways with horses is welcome.

There is another discussion group at HorseConscious

If you go back to the previous page on this thread, there is a link to a video I recently put up of my horses & me. 

Jerry and I are still in the early stages of Friendship Training, but gee, it has made such a difference to our confidence and trust. I can't believe how much calmer and relaxed and more confident I am, in the saddle and on the ground. 

Regards
Frances


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## Soulofhorse (Jan 7, 2012)

FrancesB said:


> The main website is at Friendship Training
> There are links to videos from there.


Thanks a lot


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## FrancesB (Jan 26, 2012)

A new horse joined our herd this week. I am not sure if it is because there were only three horses involved, or because of the personalities of the horses, or because I am doing FT with Jerry, but this is the first time a new horse has joined the herd without someone losing some fur.


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## philton (May 16, 2012)

Teachers of Friendship’s schools are selected from the chars where the schools are located. They are required to have a certain level of education in order to be capable of teaching primary level classes. Through its training programme, Friendship provides every teacher a month-long basic training which includes orientation with the teaching methods, use of educational tools, and orientation with the curriculum. In addition to this, every month, teachers are required to attend a follow-up training for 3 days in one of the four centres located in Chilmari, Kurigram, Gaibandha and Kuakata. At the training teachers and supervisors develop monthly lesson plans, go through orientation on new ideas, report to the supervisor on the work in schools and participate in exercises to improve their teaching skills, among others. 

Currently there are 78 teachers working with Friendship.


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## FrancesB (Jan 26, 2012)

This sounds a really interesting program. Is it training primary school teachers? The program I was talking about is about teaching horses.




philton said:


> Teachers of Friendship’s schools are selected from the chars where the schools are located. They are required to have a certain level of education in order to be capable of teaching primary level classes. Through its training programme, Friendship provides every teacher a month-long basic training which includes orientation with the teaching methods, use of educational tools, and orientation with the curriculum. In addition to this, every month, teachers are required to attend a follow-up training for 3 days in one of the four centres located in Chilmari, Kurigram, Gaibandha and Kuakata. At the training teachers and supervisors develop monthly lesson plans, go through orientation on new ideas, report to the supervisor on the work in schools and participate in exercises to improve their teaching skills, among others.
> 
> Currently there are 78 teachers working with Friendship.


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