# what color should this guy be registered as (appy)?



## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Do you have a current full body picture of his dam?


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## crimsonsky (Feb 18, 2011)

i've requested current pics of both the sire and dam from the breeder and will post them as soon as i get them. *fingers crossed*


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Oh fingers crossed. I only asked for new/recent pictures as she looks so very much lighter (read grey!) in the newborn pictures. My gut feeling is that he is grey. More so since he was born an "adult" color, i.e. his points were black instead of the normal foal mousy color. Also the way the white is coming in on his face is indicative of grey and not varnish. Varnish tends to leave color on the bony parts, grey takes it all.


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## crimsonsky (Feb 18, 2011)

man this stuff confuses me! for instance my appy mare was registered as chestnut but she was basically a silvery leopard when i got her at age 8/9. 

berry's registration pic:









berry @ 13/14:

















can you tell me (or is there a fun website about this) how the colors work - the grey and roan and varnish?


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

It can be tough to tell the difference between varnish roan and grey at times. As ND said, varnish tends to leave colour on the bony parts - face, shoulders, hips. Varnish can often 'uncover' spots - as is the case with your girl Crimson.

Grey will never uncover spots. The WHOLE horse will eventually turn white, spots and all. As also pointed out by ND, there are several indicators of grey that MAY be present in a newborn - adult colouring is a good one, and goggles around the eyes too. Koda didn't have goggles, but did have the clear adult colouring. 

Roan changes seasonally, but the horse will never go white. Roan has points like a bay - the head and legs will be a more solid colour. This usually isn't the case with varnish, it tends to roan the whole horse.

ND can probably add more - I am definitely not great with appy markings


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## QuarterhorseRider (Apr 7, 2011)

More bay then the rest...


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Grey wipes out all color, no matter what the base pattern or color is.

True roan does not change. It also has a solid head and legs (very rare cases roan does encorach on the head and legs). 

Varnish... Well varnish also takes the color and replaces it with white, _but_ it doesn't erase it. Varnish will take the base color away, but leave spots (like on your mare). Varnish will also only leave color on the boney (i.e. legs, jaw bones, nasal bones, etc.). It can eventually take the color from those places, but that is the last place it disappears from.

Here is a slide show of my varnish roan appy (click to view) approximate dates on the header of the slide show.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

lol you were answering Chiilaa while I was digging up my slide show.


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## crimsonsky (Feb 18, 2011)

oh ho! ok so my mare was a varnish then? interesting. color and genetics are so fascinating to me.

so you guys think that koda will end up grey and will, at some point, "lose" the spots? that's kinda sad. do many appys go grey in that way? having this extra information you've posted, i'd have to say that the majority of appys i've dealt with were varnish with a few more "solid" specimens (as in bay with blanket, etc.). 

eeps! i wish he'd shed the winter fuzz so i can at least see what he looks like now. do you think if i sent in his pictures as he currently looks (i'll take new ones tomorrow for your review), and marked his paperwork as being grey, that they'd accept it?


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## crimsonsky (Feb 18, 2011)

and poop - the slideshow only shows one picture and says the other has been moved to deleted.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

I would think so. I mean you could always send off an email to the ApHC or call them and see what they suggest you do.

And yes, if he is grey then he will eventually loose his spots. There are grey appaloosas out there and they do eventually loose their spots. It honestly saddens me that their are greys. Nothing against the horse, but the color. Gah. Part of the appaloosa _is_ its color. Breed greys and you loose that color. *sigh* sorry for the tangent.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

crimsonsky said:


> and poop - the slideshow only shows one picture and says the other has been moved to deleted.


Hmmm.

Well the pictures are all there. Here are the pics in the slide show. sorry for the overload. All the same mare, progression from when I got her to present. -


Summer 2001 

















Spring 2002









2004 









2005

















Summer 2005









Summer 2008









2009









Jan 2010









Summer 2010

















Feb 2011









March 2011









April 2011


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## crimsonsky (Feb 18, 2011)

so your mare is a varnish, yes? am i understanding this correctly? haha

and yes, that will be very sad if he eventually loses his spots. that IS the obvious determining factor for an appaloosa so to have a color/gene that will "steal" that from them is a disappointment. 

ah well. nothing i can do about it but love him! 

i wish their pedigrees (his parents) had more color information. i suppose i could pay on the appaloosa website to get that info but i don't think it's THAT important. lol


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Yep you got it right. Phoenix is a varnish. 

Exactly on the loving him part. I did have a grey appaloosa... Well he was my grandmother's but I claimed him  He was born blood bay and was white (from grey) by the time he was 5. He was sadly PTS because of sand colic.


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## crimsonsky (Feb 18, 2011)

oh i'm so sorry for your loss!  

funny enough, i always think greys are pretty but i've never wanted one for a few reasons - sarcomas being the main reason. ah well. can't change his coat! haha


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## crimsonsky (Feb 18, 2011)

ok so i got a response from the breeder (no pictures) but this is what she said:

"Genetically he s/b a bay roan, with a blanket and spots. Sire is registered grulla, white w/spots over entire body/star/lf-lightning marks/lh-lightning marks/rh-lightning marks. DNA typed
Dam is buckskin, white over bodyand hips/star,stripe and snip/no leg markings/roan over entire body. DNA typed"

so... uh... bay roan then? sheesh. hahaha


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

If Mom is registered as Buckskin then there is no doubt in my mind that she is grey =P Look at the dark colour of her coat, even though it is wet and muddy, it has that murky, gone dark to go grey look to me


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Also Chiilaa, look at the baby pics of the OP's horse. The dam is in the background, well her head is, and she is very much grey in those. 


crimson - You can always pull hair and send to UCDavis or Animal genetics. It takes about 7-10 days and they email you as well as send you a hard copy of the results.  Or call/email the ApHC and see what they want to register him as.


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## crimsonsky (Feb 18, 2011)

Chiilaa said:


> If Mom is registered as Buckskin then there is no doubt in my mind that she is grey =P Look at the dark colour of her coat, even though it is wet and muddy, it has that murky, gone dark to go grey look to me


can you explain to me how buckskin (in this case) = grey? 

looking at koda today buckskin makes a lot of sense. he's not bay like any bay i've ever known with black points and a reddish coat. he has chocolate points (legs, ears, muzzle) and a golden coat coming in. part of his face and his butt cheeks have shed out thus far so they show the color the best. unfortunately my camera battery died before i got any face pics. i'll have to get those tomorrow. 

here's his butt:


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Gray modifies any "normal" horse color. So he can be both a buckskin and a gray at the same time. 

I don't know enough about Appaloosa color patterns to tell you anything about them or how they interact with regular horse colors.

But I must say that Koda has a lovely butt! He may have the prettiest butt I have ever seen. :lol:


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## crimsonsky (Feb 18, 2011)

****! he DOES have a nice butt.  

grey color genetics confuse me. *sigh*


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

A gray has to have at least one gray parent. And a foal born from a gray has a 50% chance of being a gray (unless the parent is homozygous for gray, then they have a 100% chance of inheriting gray). 

I researched it a little last year because my gray mare had a foal, and I was wondering what my odds were of him turning gray. He had a 50% chance of being gray, and by golly, he has a sprinkling of white hair, so I think he's got it. :lol:


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Well if they have registered her as buckskin, then looking at her now, she doesn't look like a bucky. In the foal shots of Koda, you can see his momma looking like a dingy grey colour. Even though she might have rolled in mud, and the lighting looks crappy, her coat just doesn't have a buckskin look to it. Most greys (not all though) tend to go a murky, darker version of their original colour before they head toward the white end. Again, as ND said, her face is also screaming grey at me. Just the general tone, and the way it is dark around her cheeks and jaw, then light over her eyes and down toward her nose make me think she is grey.

Koda is brown going grey in my humble opinion.


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## crimsonsky (Feb 18, 2011)

good times. i think, if anything, i'll just mark bay roan on his registration paperwork and let them figure it out.


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