# Question for the Christians/Bible believers out there (no offensiveness needed)



## Tennessee (Dec 7, 2008)

Mmm...that is the one thing I have not been sure about. I am sure that because it was in the Bible it wasn't 100 percent false, but I don't think it was completely true either.

I don't know. It is kind of a childish sounding thing, but *no dirty look needed* when Jesus was around miracles really did happen, and they still happen today.

It could have just been one of those freak accidents where the man managed to escape. After all, their survival skills and their skills of nature back then were probably a lot more than we have today..so..I don't know. Maybe?


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## trIplEcrOwngIrl (May 13, 2009)

I do. And I'm not some freak religious person(atleast I try not to be, others may disagree :lol, I just know that God can do amazing things. What about the time when the Isrealites were fighting another people(I can't remember who) and as long as Moses held up his hands, the Israelites were winning, but if he put them down, they began to lose. All of the events in the bible seem unrealistic unless you realize it was God doing all of these things. I mean, he created the universe out of nothing! He opened His mouth and out came light! He designed the complex, diverse creatures that we are. Anyway, if one doesn't beleive that Jonah was swallowed and then spit out by a whale, then how can they beleive that Jesus rose from the dead? Thats just as hard to beleive but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. We just can't understand HOW it could happen, and since we think we humans are the most intellegent beings to ever have breath, we come to the false conclusion that things we cannot explain must not be true. But if we well humble ourselves and realize that we are very, very, very small and our God is VERY, VERY, VERY big than we will see that just because it doesn't make since to us or we cannot do such things(by ourselves), doesn't mean it is impossible for God. Okay, my novel is done. Cookies to all who read this far!


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

I see most of the stories in the Bible as parables. They have a moral to them, and give people an idea of how they're supposed to act.

Being a Christian, I believe Jesus was the Son of God. Others who are not Christians don't believe that, and I'm okay with it.

I've seen miracles happen, so have my own personal proof that they occur. I can't prove them to you of course because faith is just that, faith.

The Bible contradicts itself if many places, and some of the original books didn't make it into the finished product. So yes, it's a flawed manual, but that doesn't mean you can't find a lot of good in it.

The Bible has been rewritten hundreds of time by men with their own set of agendas, prejudices, and beliefs. Before it was written down, it was by word of mouth. 

As an historical document, it definitely has its place. Many of the places, people, and things described did indeed happen and exist. Whether you want to put a 'Godly' spin on them or not, is up to you. 

FWIW, I love Queen and was very sad when Freddy Mercury died.

Christ preached tolerance and love for _everyone_. He did not say, "Except for all the gays, Jews, Muslims, heathens, women, etc." Humanity has taken His words and turned them around to fit their own prejudices and bigotries, and that saddens me.

I can and will witness to others if they show an interest. What I _won't_ do is try to pressure someone into believing as I do. There are different beliefs, and who am I to say that one is more right than the other?


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## ExquisiteEquines (Feb 15, 2010)

Speed Racer said:


> I see most of the stories in the Bible as parables. They have a moral to them, and give people an idea of how they're supposed to act.
> 
> Being a Christian, I believe Jesus was the Son of God. Others who are not Christians don't believe that, and I'm okay with it.
> 
> ...



You say things much more eloquently than I am capable of and you pretty much stated everything I wanted to.

I guess I get fed up with people who look at lets say... The Egyptians theories and gods and say "Oh those are just fairytales/stories" but get so ****ed when you throw it back at them about the Bible.

And dont get me started on Leviticus lol.

Anywhoo, kudos to you for having a more opened religious mind than most and I hope in the future I can respond to people the way you have here.


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## roro (Aug 14, 2009)

ExquisiteEquines said:


> And the first person to shout "Its a miracle!!!" is getting a dirty look..


Why would you look down upon someone who says that? I can understand not believing what they say, but scoffing at them isn't going to help anyone.


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## EventersBabe (Oct 1, 2009)

I am a firm beliver in Christ.. I belive he is our savior he died for our sins and yes I do belive every story in our Bible is a very much true story. 
Yes Jonah got swallowed by a whale.. it was in the bible. But like one of the posters said, it was entirely false or true. so it could of been a freak accident but like the Noah and his Ark and all the other parts it was true or Daniel and the Lion Den or the 3 guys who were gonna be thrown in to the fire..
Those were all planned by God. God has his ways of showing stuff an then helping.

That is my Point of View I have been going to church since I was a baby. Dont bible studies gone to youth group studies weekend bible stuff and camp. I have learned so much and still want to learn I just havent taken the time to do that and really I need to..

Anyways I hope I don't get argued with like I did on another forum about religons.


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## irydehorses4lyfe (Sep 8, 2009)

EventersBabe said:


> I am a firm beliver in Christ.. *I belive he is our savior he died for our sins and yes I do belive every story in our Bible is a very much true story. *
> Yes Jonah got swallowed by a whale.. it was in the bible. But like one of the posters said, it was entirely false or true. so it could of been a freak accident but like the Noah and his Ark and all the other parts it was true or Daniel and the Lion Den or the 3 guys who were gonna be thrown in to the fire..
> Those were all planned by God. God has his ways of showing stuff an then helping.
> 
> ...


There is my thoughts on this 150%. 
I thoroughly believe that because we are humans, and we aren't God we cannot wrap our heads around some things that may have happened in the Bible. It's not meant for us to understand everything, because if we understood everything, there would be no questions! 
I cannot begin to fathom and understand half of the miracles and stories of things that happened in the Bible, As EventersBabe said, Shadrack, Meshack, and Abednigo thrown into the fiery furnace, I can't even picture that, let alone wrap my head around it, yet I believe it happened. Same with Jonah and the Whale, the burning bush, and many many many other instances of absolute incredible things happening throughout the Bible. I believe sometimes things that you could never in your wildest dreams imagine to happen, have to happen in order for one to realize things that they need to realize.
I believe in the unseen, because trust and faith is beyond what you know. My faith is in God, and I believe anything and everything can happen if it's His will. I'm ok with not knowing everything.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Can't say I'm the most religious person around. In fact I'm not religious at all so disregard my comments if you feel so inclined however I would like to put my point of view across. 

So, I think the bible has some good morals, the whole be nice etc. etc. deal. And I 100% agree with these morals and like to stick to them. I do think that Jesus was around and walked the earth and did some pretty amazing things. What I DON'T get, is why the Christian 'GOD' is the be all and end all?? How many other religions are out there with their own god or gods, Egyptians had a number of god's for example. So what makes the white, christian god so important? I see it as a bit of discrimination and there is little wonder why wars are caused by religion. How come when the main morals in each religion is about how human life is so important and we're equal, god looks after us all.... how come we turn around and mercilessly slaughter hundreds... thousands, of other people simply because they don't follow 'our' religion???

I am very much a person that needs visual and factual proof before I will believe something. I don't just believe something because someone has told me to 'just because'. Yes, I was brought up in a religious family, my parents tried to get me to go to church every Sunday as a kid, my grandparents are deeply religious, we'd say grace before meals etc. But even as a totally nieve 10 year old, I wanted the PROOF that god was around. I didn't get why, if god was such a lovely 'person' and cared for everyone, why so many people died, are killed, are tortured, live in extreme poverty... why isn't god looking after them? Kids that lose both of their parents and have little to know family, where is god then?? 
How do you explain genetic mutations if god created absolutely every life form? 
Where 'is' god, if god created the earth, did 'he' also create the entire solar system, universe and beyond??? How do we KNOW that god just clicked his fingers one day and decided he was going to 'make earth'? Where is the proof????

I'm a bit of a science person, I believe strongly in evolution. There is solid proof for that and if there's good solid proof, I'll believe it until proven, strongly, otherwise. I am willing to listen to opinions, but if there's not hard fast evidence supporting it, I won't... CAN'T believe it. The bible.... who wrote it? How do you KNOW some old bloke just decided one day to write a fancy book? I hope we're all aware that the bible has been re-written a number of times, because the so called 'original' was so entirely politically incorrect and supported torture methods for those who opposed the religion. Hmmmmm. 
As for creation.... what's with all the fossil and DNA evidence laying around?? How come human DNA is 98% identical to chimpanzees and bonobo's?? How come there is fossil and DNA evidence showing various stages of human-like apes over millions of years? 
How come 'god' isn't coming to the rescue to prevent enhanced global warming? Humans are destroying the earth and god isn't fussed in the slightest? And please, don't tell me enhanced global warming isn't happening. The scientists who are stating that it is all natural, if you look into it, are almost all funded by oil and mining companies. Funny that. Go check out Al Gore's "An inconvenient truth' and let me know in detail how he is totally incorrect if you believe that way 

Why are homosexual people evil? Why is sex before marriage evil?? Why were left handed people deemed evil? 

Once again, I did not intend this post to have a go at anyone who supports a religious view on life. Most of my family is religious and I can understand the concept, and as I originally stated, the morals are very good in theory. But where's the proof?


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Speed Racer said:


> I see most of the stories in the Bible as parables. They have a moral to them, and give people an idea of how they're supposed to act.


 
Wow, I have never met another person that believed the way that I do before. I am with SR, I see the bible as more of a persons guide to living a good life and the stories are likely just that, stories. It is possible that they really happened and I won't argue that "No, it's all just a made up story", but that's just not how I believe. 

I do think that there is a greater being out there that has a hand in all things but I don't put much stock in religion. There have been too many people over the last few million years that were content to kill innocent people because their "religion" said that it was okay. That is was "God's wish that we kill all heathens."

If anyone has seen the Chronicles of Riddick, most historical christian leaders remind me of the necromongers. They try to either convert or kill every human life. I believe what I believe and I don't want anyone trying to shove their opinions down my throat so why would I do it to someone else?


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Kayty, evolution and creationism can coexist. 

As a Christian, I don't have a problem with evolution because it dovetails quite nicely with creationism.

I'm fascinated by the scientific findings of archaeologists, and have always been the first in line to read about a new theory.

However, physical proof does not trump _belief_. Faith in and of itself is all about believing that which we can't see, and what can't be proven by scientific methods. How do you measure and quantify faith? 

I am saddened by intolerance on both sides of the spectrum. Those who are fanatic Bible thumpers aren't any worse than the bile spewing atheists. Nor are the Christian terrorists any less evil than the non-Christian ones. Terrorism and hatred are part of every and all cultures, and do not belong to just one group.

Christ preached tolerance and love for all. Whether or not you believe in God, that's a pretty good way to live your life. "Love the sinner but hate the sin" is hard to do, but that's what Christ expected us to _try_ to do.

None of us are perfect and I don't see mankind achieving global peace, but we must _strive_ for it. As individuals we must promote the tolerance doctrine. 

Intolerance, hatred, and terrorism cloaked as religious or scientific fervor are the true evils of the world. What religion or not one chooses to follow has nothing to do with whether one is or is not a good person.


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## pieinthesky (Mar 12, 2010)

> If anyone has seen the Chronicles of Riddick, most historical christian leaders remind me of the necromongers. They try to either convert or kill every human life. I believe what I believe and I don't want anyone trying to shove their opinions down my throat so why would I do it to someone else?


I think thats exactly what the writer was trying to portray maybe not just christian but anyone who has blind religious faith. Kind of like people who went over to africa to convert the "heathens." 

To each his own, the bible even says to accept everyone, everyone is god's creation, yet the people who are superreligious and "devote followers" usually dont accept all people. 

I believe the bible is a great gift of life lessons, you can choose to read or not. They arent all completely accurate, nor are they complete myths. Its kind of like playing whisper down the lane to an extent, when it gets rewritten and translated.


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## trIplEcrOwngIrl (May 13, 2009)

Kayty, Your thinking like a good scientist, asking questions. Thank you for that. I figured I'd have a go at some of your questions. 

*What I DON'T get, is why the Christian 'GOD' is the be all and end all?? So what makes the white, christian god so important?*

He isn't the best god, He is the only one. Now, nonbeleivers(I don't like that word but I don't have a better one) obviously don't beleive that. Well, do any of the other 'gods' answer prayer? Can you feel they're arms wrap around you when you finally come to them? Did their sons fulfil every old testamet prophesy? Mine did.

*I didn't get why, if god was such a lovely 'person' and cared for everyone, why so many people died, are killed, are tortured, live in extreme poverty... why isn't god looking after them? Kids that lose both of their parents and have little to know family, where is god then?? *

He is. Bad things happen because of the fall, we are sinners and now have to pay the consequinces. But that doesn't mean that God isn't looking after all of his people. If He didn't care, He wouldn't have let His son pay the price for our sins. Just because you can't see him, doesn't mean He isn't there. Romans 8:28 says, "All things work together for the good of those who love the Lord." THat doesn't sound like He just abondons us, does it?

*Where 'is' god, if god created the earth, did 'he' also create the entire solar system, universe and beyond??? How do we KNOW that god just clicked his fingers one day and decided he was going to 'make earth'? Where is the proof????*

Genisis 1:1 "In the begining God created the HEAVANS AND THE EARTH." The bible tells us that he created earth. Which brings us to the next question....

*The bible.... who wrote it? How do you KNOW some old bloke just decided one day to write a fancy book? I hope we're all aware that the bible has been re-written a number of times, because the so called 'original' was so entirely politically incorrect and supported torture methods for those who opposed the religion*. 

There were witnesses. Luke asked people who had seen Jesus, what He had done. He compared all of these and they match the writings of the other gospel writers who were with Jesus when alot of these things happened. The old testament was copied with such precision and acruracy, there is no way it could have been changed enough from the very original to make a difference. I don't have time to type some of the laws but if anuyone wants to pm me I'll give you some examples. And the new testiment is even more reliable! Does anyone ever doubt the reliablity of the Iliad? What about the Republic? No. Then why question the Bible when it was preserved so carefully and well?

*How come 'god' isn't coming to the rescue to prevent enhanced global warming? Humans are destroying the earth and god isn't fussed in the slightest?*

He isn't worried. He knows what will happen. One of the most comon myths these days is that we can 'Save the Eath'. Well, we can't. Only He can and He nnows that it is not going to just spin off its axel 1 day. Revelation tells what is going to happen and aparently the earth will last atleast another 1007 years. Now, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't keep it clean, just as long as we don't go into thinking that we can save our planet.

I know I didn't answer all your questions and if there are some you would like me to answer, just send me a pm or post here . Like I said in the begining of my post, you are thinking like a good scientist. But that can also be a bad thing as sometimes, you just have to realize that you can't wrap your head around everything and sometimes you just have to have faith.

Thank you,
tcg


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## Snapple122 (Aug 8, 2008)

"To each his own, the bible even says to accept everyone, everyone is god's creation, yet the people who are superreligious and "devote followers" usually dont accept all people." 

Oh I just had to comment on this one. I totally agree. Not about the people who are "super- religious" though. Why, if we're supposed to accept everyone, is gay marriage and being gay so wrong? 
I have absolutely no problem with people who are gay. It is not by choice for them, you don't choose to be gay. Why shouldn't people have the right to be in love? I don't want this to be a heated argument but this is what I believe. No, I am not gay, and I don't have any close friends who are. But if I did, would I shut them out and make them feel unwelcome? Absolutely not.


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## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

Why proves it didn't happen?? I do believe it. The stories in the Bible were written by ancient prophets and disciplines, there is absolutely nothing proving to me that I should not believe it.


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## ExquisiteEquines (Feb 15, 2010)

roro said:


> Why would you look down upon someone who says that? I can understand not believing what they say, but scoffing at them isn't going to help anyone.



Sorry if that came off in a scoffing tone, I have a very sarcastic/twisted sense of humor and it sometimes does not come out right in text.

'Rescinds dirty looks"


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## TaMMa89 (Apr 12, 2008)

When talking about religiousness, I firstly have to admit I've two sides inside me: A religious side and a non-religious side so I'm speaking with my religious side now. The second thing I have to admit is that I haven't read whole the Bible, just some parts about it and got to know some parts of its content via other ways.

I agree a lot with Speed Racer about the symbolical meaning of the Bible. Even my religious side believes Jesus is the Son of God, I also see there are also a lot of metaphorical stuff in the Bible, even I don't totally deny miracles either.



trIplEcrOwngIrl said:


> *The bible.... who wrote it? How do you KNOW some old bloke just decided one day to write a fancy book? I hope we're all aware that the bible has been re-written a number of times, because the so called 'original' was so entirely politically incorrect and supported torture methods for those who opposed the religion*.
> 
> There were witnesses. Luke asked people who had seen Jesus, what He had done. He compared all of these and they match the writings of the other gospel writers who were with Jesus when alot of these things happened. The old testament was copied with such precision and acruracy, there is no way it could have been changed enough from the very original to make a difference. I don't have time to type some of the laws but if anuyone wants to pm me I'll give you some examples. And the new testiment is even more reliable! Does anyone ever doubt the reliablity of the Iliad? What about the Republic? No. Then why question the Bible when it was preserved so carefully and well?


I admit my knowledge about the Bible isn't the best one, but I've caught that there have been different synods after those stories were written. One of the very first synods was very significant for the current Bible, the participants decided to what to accept in the Bible and what to leave out (for example Gospel of Mary and some other Apoc. Gospels were ruled out) and that has impressed the big picture of the Bible.
I'm not sure what to think about that.

About the question about misery, here's also another view for it: My religious side says we can't be sure about it why that all happens so personally I don't buy the theory about falling sins but see it can be one of a choices why this happen. The problem over God and evilness in the world is called theodicy.

Not looking for a debate, I really appreciate your firm faith and way to see the Bible trIplEcrOwngIrl and others but just wanted to give also an another view for some of the questions Kayty asked. I'm sure that if more of users started to answer that, we'd see as many beliefs and views as we have users here. Actually there was a topic about creationism and evolution here not so long ago.


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## ExquisiteEquines (Feb 15, 2010)

trIplEcrOwngIrl said:


> He isn't the best god, He is the only one. Now, nonbeleivers(I don't like that word but I don't have a better one) obviously don't beleive that. Well, do any of the other 'gods' answer prayer? Can you feel they're arms wrap around you when you finally come to them? Did their sons fulfil every old testamet prophesy? Mine did.


This is all subjective, if you ask a person of another religion I guarantee they will say the exact same thing about there god.

Conversely I have tried very hard to "come to god" and have never had these feelings...


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## Snapple122 (Aug 8, 2008)

My question is- and it's a legitimate one- 

If God created everything- how was God created? He was just.. there? 

I am not saying that I do not believe in a higher power, because I believe that everything happens for a reason. But I am not sold on this. I realize that I should read the bible and go to church a few times, maybe meet with a pastor to understand some of these things. But then again, there are so many sex scandels about priests and pastors.


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## ExquisiteEquines (Feb 15, 2010)

Snapple122 said:


> My question is- and it's a legitimate one-
> 
> If God created everything- how was God created? He was just.. there?
> 
> I am not saying that I do not believe in a higher power, because I believe that everything happens for a reason. But I am not sold on this. I realize that I should read the bible and go to church a few times, maybe meet with a pastor to understand some of these things. But then again, there are so many sex scandels about priests and pastors.



See this is one of the hardest things for me to comprehend, science wise and religion wise.

I just cannot wrap my head around something being in existence since eternity...just cant fathom it...


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

ExquisiteEquines said:


> This is all subjective, if you ask a person of another religion I guarantee they will say the exact same thing about there god.
> 
> Conversely I have tried very hard to "come to god" and have never had these feelings...



Yes see this is where my mind goes ummmmm about religion. Thankyou tripcrowngirl for your answers to my questions, however it is all very much subjective. Now I don't know much about religion and who's god belongs to what religion... but what about god's like Allah? Muslims? (I think...) worship Allah and Allah is the ONE god. So how can we say that 'our god' is 'the only' god? Again it comes back to my original post. Where is the proof? How can you say that the christian god is the only god, totally disregarding every other religion that believes in different gods?
This is what starts wars, everyone thinks that their faith/beliefs are superior and everyone should conform that that. Hilter for example, believed that Jewish people were evil and should be eradicated. That was his belief and look what came of it. The war on terror that is occuring right as we speak. It's religion again! The terrorists follow their strict religion, and are under the impression that the world should join them. And look where that has got everyone....


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## Snapple122 (Aug 8, 2008)

> *What I DON'T get, is why the Christian 'GOD' is the be all and end all?? So what makes the white, christian god so important?*
> 
> He isn't the best god, He is the only one. Now, nonbeleivers(I don't like that word but I don't have a better one) obviously don't beleive that. Well, do any of the other 'gods' answer prayer? Can you feel they're arms wrap around you when you finally come to them? Did their sons fulfil every old testamet prophesy? Mine did.


So, basically what you're saying is that every single other religion in the world is wrong? What about the Greeks who believed in the God's of Olympus. Were they wrong too?


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## Brighteyes (Mar 8, 2009)

Snapple122 said:


> So, basically what you're saying is that every single other religion in the world is wrong? What about the Greeks who believed in the God's of Olympus. Were they wrong too?


 
It says in the Bible that God is the only god. Period. No more questions. So, yes, they were "wrong".

That sounds harsh, I know, and I can't make it sound less harsh without being a coward. That's what Christians believe, and no amount of "proper" wording can change that...


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## Tennessee (Dec 7, 2008)

Snapple122 said:


> So, basically what you're saying is that every single other religion in the world is wrong? What about the Greeks who believed in the God's of Olympus. Were they wrong too?



Yes. They are.


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

TaMMa89 said:


> When talking about religiousness, I firstly have to admit I've two sides inside me: A religious side and a non-religious side so I'm speaking with my religious side now. The second thing I have to admit is that I haven't read whole the Bible, just some parts about it and got to know some parts of its content via other ways.
> 
> I agree a lot with Speed Racer about the symbolical meaning of the Bible. Even my religious side believes Jesus is the Son of God, I also see there are also a lot of metaphorical stuff in the Bible, even I don't totally deny miracles either.
> 
> ...


Very well said TaMMa. I am always glued to the history/NG channel when they talk about the dead sea scrolls and other texts found within just the last decade. The history behind the writing of the bible and how each book was decided upon, I find fascinating. 
I had no religious teachings as a youth and don't seek it out now. I do take a live and let live attitude to others and expect the same behavior toward my beliefs. 
As far as Jonah and the whale I won't argue a religious point that is based on "miracles". There is no winning or losing that argument.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

haha ok, i just have to share my veiw on god... im not fully christian, and none of my family is. but, ihave prayed when i really needed something. one thought i have is that god can be a complete stuck up jerk sometimes. and im not talking about if i ask for something and i dont get it a call god names, lol no. im talking about things super religious people have said to me that make me go: wow, god, that was a jerk stuck up move. and the funny thing is its the people that are gods complete folllowers that have shown me that without knowing it. I love god, but im not goinng to blindly follow any leader and think hes always right.


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## midwestgirl89 (Jul 7, 2009)

Snapple122 said:


> My question is- and it's a legitimate one-
> 
> If God created everything- how was God created? He was just.. there?
> 
> I am not saying that I do not believe in a higher power, because I believe that everything happens for a reason. But I am not sold on this. I realize that I should read the bible and go to church a few times, maybe meet with a pastor to understand some of these things. But then again, there are so many sex scandels about priests and pastors.


As humans that have a beginning, and sadly, an end, it's mind boggling to try to comprehend something that's always been. But when you look at it, it's the same concept as space being endless.

I'm not going to get into any religious arguments, just that I'm very religious. I was born into one religion and have since changed to another that I feel is the truth.
Everyone's got to do their own searching when it comes to religion. If you have questions, don't leave them unanswered. The day you find a religion that answers every question without contradiction, traditions, or opinions, you've found the truth.


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## roro (Aug 14, 2009)

Tennessee said:


> Yes. They are.


Care to support this claim? How are their god(s) any less valid than the Christian one?

To Exquisite: no worries. I'm an atheist and thus have had my fair share of debating with Christians, so I'm a bit robotic now about my execution


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Once again, I have no problem with religion itself. I have a problem with the self centred-ness that so many religious people seem to have. Very much a 'my way or the highway' trait and yet we boo so many 'general' people on this trait. Yet with religion, everyone is too scared to say 'hey, wait on a minute..' just because it's religion and oh no, you can't possibly question a religion. Why is it such a self centred thing? Religious groups seem to hate it other so often, and fight so hard saying that their belief is the only belief that is viable. WHAT exactly makes one religion superior to another? This is akin to saying whites are superior to blacks, or vice versa, it is 100% a form as racism but involving religion. Whites used to dictate the blacks and make life hell for them, thinking were inferior and needed to be 'crushed'. Well isn't that EXACTLY the same reasoning that says 'my god is better than your god, in fact my god is the ONLY god and your's is just a fake'????? Answer me that one please.

Also why must us 'non-religious' folk have to tread on tip toes on the subject of religion, when religious people often are seen and heard fighting tooth and fist against the evolution theory and science in general?? We have to avoid dishing out any critisism of religion, and you can go around bagging out science as much as you like? 

Just comes back to my own feelings of needing proof before I will fully believe something. Anyone can believe something if they really want to believe it. For example, I REALLY believe I have super long legs and ride like a pro. Ha! I wish, but if I want to believe it, I will. Fairies are real. Stepping on a crack can break your mothers back. UFO's are cruising around right as we speak sucking people up and probing them. Believe what you want to, just a few examples of superstitions and beliefs people have. Why is religion any different? 

I also think of this whole 'god' thing as a bit of a dictatorship. God is the dictator, and his 'followers' seem to have a one track mind, this person if evil because they did that, that person is going to hell etc. Reminds me once again of Hitler and his cheerful little clan of followers. 

Also another little gripe I have with 'god'. Why is god a he??/ How do we know god is a he?? Again, at the time 'god' was 'invented' by someone, the general concensus was that males were far superior to females. Therefore all great rulers had to be male. Funny that god is a he, isn't it? Oh and that god is also white. Again, back to our racist notion. Black people are apparently evil and no good, so therefore god must be white??

Sorry guys, I could go on and on! And if I'm offending, again I am sorry. But take both sides of the story. I'm happy to listen to the religious arguments, but I have yet to hear a convincing one.


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## azarni (Aug 17, 2008)

This is such an interesting debate!

I'm not sure, exactly, where I stand religiously. My parents have tried to raise us with a strong Catholic influence, I've been going to church since I was little, but the rule in the house is that once we turn 16, it's our own choice whether we go or not. I turned 16 just over a year ago, and I still go to church quite regularly. But at the same time .. I just don't *get* it, y'know? I respect the lifestyle that many Christians are trying to achieve through their religion.

But at the same time, I've noticed that many religious people have an extremely self-righteous air and look down on people who don't share their opinion. Which is totally contradictory to the life they're supposed to follow.

I agree with whoever said that bible stories are parables. I also believe that things like "God made woman out of man's rib" is just a way to explain why men have one less rib.

I find that praying and believing in God is just a stress reliever; to me, praying is my release at night, like a personal diary where I can be totally truthful and not be afraid of being judged by myself. Because according to the theory, I'm actually praying to somebody else. And that somebody else doesn't judge or scold or give dirty looks when I tell the truth.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

midwestgirl89 said:


> I'm not going to get into any religious arguments, just that I'm very religious. I was born into one religion and have since changed to another that I feel is the truth.


I think this is probably inadvertantly the best statement about religion there is. Religion, kind of like art, is in the eye of the beholder. Different people see different things. No two people see exactly the same thing even in the same piece. Some people desperately need to believe that there is some higher meaning to it all. Others find purpose elsewhere.


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## ExquisiteEquines (Feb 15, 2010)

midwestgirl89 said:


> As humans that have a beginning, and sadly, an end, it's mind boggling to try to comprehend something that's always been. But when you look at it, it's the same concept as space being endless.
> 
> I'm not going to get into any religious arguments, just that I'm very religious. I was born into one religion and have since changed to another that I feel is the truth.
> Everyone's got to do their own searching when it comes to religion. If you have questions, don't leave them unanswered. The day you find a religion that answers every question without contradiction, traditions, or opinions, you've found the truth.



See even as someone who is iffy on the god subject I also have a hard time comprehending that space/matter was here from the beginning.


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## ExquisiteEquines (Feb 15, 2010)

roro said:


> Care to support this claim? How are their god(s) any less valid than the Christian one?
> 
> To Exquisite: no worries. I'm an atheist and thus have had my fair share of debating with Christians, so I'm a bit robotic now about my execution



Ya know, I was always in trouble at church for asking too many questions and thats why I stopped going, and then I started ****ing off door to door preachers the same way.

You think I would just give up on my pursuit of a decent conversation about the hypocrisy of religion but alas, I never learn.


Should I throw in the debate of all the holidays Christianity has taken over??


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Exquisite, if you think about it, the taking over of Pagan, Wiccan, and other holidays was an absolutely _brilliant_ move by the Catholic church.

It got people to join Christianity who otherwise wouldn't have. It made things easier for them to ease into Christianity, especially if their known holiday was incorporated into church rituals.

I've always thought that was very farsighted of the Church. Give 'em what they want, but change it _just_ enough that it's now a Christian holiday and no longer a Pagan one. 

Once you have your converts, all it takes is one more generation to establish Christianity and make sure the rituals and holidays all focus on Jesus. People have short memories, and many of them are _more_ than willing to be led like sheep by authority figures.

As far as God always being around, infinite and never ending, why is that more unbelievable than the universe being created from nothing? The Big Bang and String theories are just that, theories.

In fact, gravity doesn't work the way it should, based on scientific data. We're also 'missing' most of the universe, according to scientists. They have theories as to where and what it is, but nobody really knows.

Plus, the theory of parallel universes is gathering supporters. That one I find particularly fascinating. 

We can explain many things by science, but every time science comes up with an explanation for something, double that amount pops up that can't be explained. 

This is an interesting time to be alive, and the next thousand years should prove even more so. Too bad I won't be around to see the advances. Or maybe I will, if the Eastern religious sects are right, and we're all reincarnated multiple times.


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## ExquisiteEquines (Feb 15, 2010)

Speed Racer said:


> As far as God always being around, infinite and never ending, why is that more unbelievable than the universe being created from nothing? The Big Bang and String theories are just that, theories.


Oh I completely agree that it was a brilliant move and it worked very well.

I just get a little irritated by people who would rather be ignorant and in effect say "No Im right!" than have a level headed discussion based on facts.

I also have a hard time with ANYTHING being here infinitely God, Matter,Universe.. Its all confusing but here we are so SOMETHING had to have been here to begin with.

And another thought of mine, in the bible it says that "The meek with inherit the earth"

Whos to say we are not the offspring of the meek, maybe that could explain why scientists say the earth is very much older than the bible claims..



I consider myself a universal unitarian for those thinking Im an atheist..


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

I believe in a higher power but not in the Christian sense of it. I used to be a Christian, was confirmed and everything but I'm not anymore and that's fine with me. I do however think the Bible in its original form would have been a good guide but as has been pointed out it has been translated and adapted over and over again. Apparently where it said thou shalt not suffer a witch (or similar bit) was actually meant to be thou shalt not suffer a poisoner. A simple mistranslation. What I find fascinating is that the Creation story actually more or less fits the pattern of evolution so I do find it plausible that it was given to us by a higher being. I have been to a Spiritualist Christian Church that I loved and loved the people who attended far more than anyone who went to the Church of England Church I went but my Aunt who is very devout CofE thought the Spiritualist Church was little more than devil worship despite the fact it was still a Christian Church but they accepted skills like mediumship, healing etc which I have been working on with so far limited success but I have plenty of time yet.

I once saw a sign that said it's not God I have a problem with, it's His followers.I find this to be quite true.


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## ExquisiteEquines (Feb 15, 2010)

Lis said:


> I once saw a sign that said it's not God I have a problem with, it's His followers.I find this to be quite true.



Brilliant!


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

ExquisiteEquines said:


> Ya know, I was always in trouble at church for asking too many questions and thats why I stopped going, and then I started ****ing off door to door preachers the same way.
> 
> You think I would just give up on my pursuit of a decent conversation about the hypocrisy of religion but alas, I never learn.
> 
> ...


Yep, funny how they get all defensive and stroppy at you when you question what they're saying. "But HOW is that possible, WHY did that happen, WHAT does that mean..." They don't like it too much, enough so that they've stopped dropping in at my place at least. If god is the be all and end all, why can't you answer my questions about 'him'? As a priest, shouldn't you know it all? And the only answers I have ever received from such questions are 'Because it's written in the bible' and 'Because God says so'. Hmmmm ok, well when I was a child, I had books that told me fairies were real. Therefore they must be because it's written in a book. Because God says so? Well I was told that tying my horse's head to it's chest with a rope would get it to accept the bit by a reputable trainer here. Therefore typing a horses head down must be the correct way to go about it. And anyway, how do we KNOW that 'god says'??? And if your school teacher told you to go jump off a cliff, would you? I'm sure if some of the devoted 'god' botherers were under the impression that 'god told them to jump off a cliff' they most likely would. 
It's sad.


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## Lovehorsesandrunning (Nov 10, 2009)

I understand what your saying completly! i really dont know if i do or dont... there are lots of things i dont really know if i beilve all the way.. i dont even know or understand like.. who how..... wrote the bible i mean some stuff has to be stretched and we really dont know the facts on everything


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## trIplEcrOwngIrl (May 13, 2009)

Looks like a lot of people see Christians as a bunch of hypocrits running around telling you your going to die if you don't beleive in God right now. Please beleive that we are not all like that, we just want to share the gospel. If you knew a totally awsome horse trainer who helped every owner if they truly believed he could help and honestly wanted him to, who wanted anyone and everyone who had heard of him to call him so they could be friends, and deeply cared about every horse and owner, wouldn't you want to tell everyone about him? Thats how us Christians feel, we just come across too strong sometimes. But anyone who is truly working for the glory of God, only wants to tell the world of his greatness, not intemidate and scare everybody. And I apolagize for those of you who have not had your questions answered and have been scared off by super-religious people. I pray that one day your questions will be answered, with the truth.
tcg


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## Brighteyes (Mar 8, 2009)

roro said:


> Care to support this claim? How are their god(s) any less valid than the Christian one?


 
It isn't a question of if they are less valid or not. It's a question of personal belief. How "valid" they are has nothing to do with anything, because we all believe what ever we believe through faith. Faith cannot be deemed valid or not, because, if it was, it would not be faith. Therefore, we can't prove our God is anymore valid then their's, and vice versa.


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## Brighteyes (Mar 8, 2009)

I feel awful that everyone seems to hate Christians and that most come off as overly assertive. I see that most people also have a problem with the "my way or the highway" thing. It's our belief that, yes, it is the only way to salvation. We believe this with all our hearts and it's hard not to say that to a group of people who want there to be more options and not come off as horrible, self-righeous, self-important people. 

I just want to apologize to anyway out there who has come to think of Christians that way by something I've said in various religious discussions. I'm very sorry about hurting your feelings, but not about what I said, because I believe that is the truth.


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## roro (Aug 14, 2009)

Brighteyes said:


> It isn't a question of if they are less valid or not. It's a question of personal belief. How "valid" they are has nothing to do with anything, because we all believe what ever we believe through faith. Faith cannot be deemed valid or not, because, if it was, it would not be faith. Therefore, we can't prove our God is anymore valid then their's, and vice versa.


Yes, I can recognize personal belief. However, she simply stated 'yes, they are' which would only be used when describing a fact. If it is a fact, then it can be proven/validated. If she said "I believe they are" then I would not have responded that way.


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## alexischristina (Jun 30, 2009)

First off, I'd like to say I didn't finish the whole thread ): I'll keep reading later.
I hope somebody actually takes the time to read this, as my theory on 'religion'.

I don't believe in a higher power, and I think the idea that "somebody" or "something" is going to swoop down and save us from our wrongdoings (or watch us suffer in out wrongdoings) is ridiculous, and to think there is only one god is also... well, I don't want to say ridiculous, but looking at all the different religious views, and then considering that your god is the one and only, it just doesn't add up.

For a long time I was strictly anti-religion, it got pushed onto me as a kid, and I grew to H-A-T-E it. I'd say the typical "oh my god" and when my parents told me to "get on my knees and pray" I told them to screw off and ran off in a fit. I was not religious and I was *not *going to have them push it on me.
I'm a rebellious teenager, whatcha gonna do? Aha.

I like logic, I like things to make sense- that's why people don't understand me and my beliefs, because to them it doesn't make sense, but hey, to each his own. I've taken a liking to the 'Paganist' view, and it makes me laugh when people call it evil and blah blah blah. A naturalistic view on faith is not evil, and it is the people who are so closed-minded (*cough* my parents *cough*) that are giving Christianity a bad name. 

Here's how I see it- everybody is powerful, and the mind is far more powerful than many people are willing to accept. You create your own luck/faith/fate, and by somehow finding a way to demonstrate your own power, you can do spectacular things for yourself. 

And now, ever since finding something I can believe in, though I still find myself rolling my eyes and cringing when I get preached to, I'm more able to accept others for believing in something that makes them happy. So long as they don't try to convert me.


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## ExquisiteEquines (Feb 15, 2010)

trIplEcrOwngIrl said:


> Looks like a lot of people see Christians as a bunch of hypocrits running around telling you your going to die if you don't beleive in God right now. Please beleive that we are not all like that, we just want to share the gospel. If you knew a totally awsome horse trainer who helped every owner if they truly believed he could help and honestly wanted him to, who wanted anyone and everyone who had heard of him to call him so they could be friends, and deeply cared about every horse and owner, wouldn't you want to tell everyone about him? Thats how us Christians feel, we just come across too strong sometimes. But anyone who is truly working for the glory of God, only wants to tell the world of his greatness, not intemidate and scare everybody. And I apolagize for those of you who have not had your questions answered and have been scared off by super-religious people. I pray that one day your questions will be answered, with the truth.
> tcg


n_n

Thank you for such a calm and understanding response


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## Gillian (Aug 2, 2008)

Didn't read the whole thread, but from reading the first page, here's what I think. I was raised religious (Jewish, not that it matters though), but never "bought" it. 

However, I am pretty interested in learning about religions, and this past year took a world religions class. Here's what I got out of it. Almost EVERY religion has the SAME stories. Tweaked, sometimes flipped, sometimes almost unrecognizable, and some *exactly* the same. All these religions basics are the very same thing. So what I can't get is why one is wrong and another is right. I personally can't believe in an all powerful being, BUT, if there where, who's to say which one it is? Who's to say that it's not all the same one, or that there are many different deities?

I'll never understand hatred because of religion (or race, or color, or gender, or sexuality, etc.). I strive to understand all of the religions, and I care only about how a person treats others. So I'll just never comprehend any hatred.

And no, none of you on here, from what I've read, are like that. But I have encountered some rather interesting people with some interesting ideas, especially because although I'm not religious, I do consider myself Jewish, it's how I was raised, and it's a part of me. The most notable experience was in 9th grade. I was talking about Passover coming up and that we had family coming in, etc. And my partner in spanish started laughing, and exclaimed, "You're Jewish?!" She then proceeded to laugh even harder and asked why my nose wasn't bigger or why I had no horns. I had no words.

I had to leave the room, I was so mad I was shaking. Never ever have I wanted to physically hit someone so much.

Unfortunately that's not my only encounter with complete morons, but it is the most memorable.


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## Tyler (Feb 10, 2010)

First off, I'd like to say that, yes, I do believe that the account of Jonah is 100% true.

Second, I believe that God has existed forever and did create all of creation out of nothing. I believe this because of the written account in the Bible and by faith.

Third, I don't look down on or shun folks who are living a "wicked" lifestyle. It doesn't matter, because in Gods eyes, I'm no different than they are ("If anybody has kept the whole law, but stumbled in one point, he is guilty of them all." James 2:10). It's all because of God's grace that I will be saved from the final judgement. I may disagree with someone's lifestyle, but I know that Jesus died for them just as much as for me.


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## ExquisiteEquines (Feb 15, 2010)

Just some stuff from a few websites I frequent, I would love to hear some of the religious members take on them..


Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians? 2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
3. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is, my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
4. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2. clearly states he should be put death, should I do it or should I ask the police to do it?
5. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Aren't there 'degrees' of abomination?
6. Lev.21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20 or is there a little wiggle room there?
7. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?
8. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
9. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can help.
Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.



_Exodus_ 21:20-21 If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.



Also some IMPOSSIBILITIES in the bible:


_Matthew_ 4:8​ Again the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.

This is only possible on a flat earth.

_Psalms _104:5​ He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved.

The earth moves. It does not have a foundation.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Tyler said:


> First off, I'd like to say that, yes, I do believe that the account of Jonah is 100% true.
> 
> Second, I believe that God has existed forever and did create all of creation out of nothing. I believe this because of the written account in the Bible and by faith.
> 
> Third, I don't look down on or shun folks who are living a "wicked" lifestyle. It doesn't matter, because in Gods eyes, I'm no different than they are ("If anybody has kept the whole law, but stumbled in one point, he is guilty of them all." James 2:10). It's all because of God's grace that I will be saved from the final judgement. I may disagree with someone's lifestyle, but I know that Jesus died for them just as much as for me.


See I respect your beliefs so this is not having a go at you in any way shape or form, it is simply stating my thoughts.

You say you believe that god has existed forever etc. "because of the written account in the bible...". Ok... and so how does the bible know that 'god' has existed forever???? If god is the only 'being' to have existed, who is there to say that 'he' has lived forever? What did god do for all those 'forever' years before 'he' 'created' earth?? And when you think of forever.. well thats a very long time. 'God' must have been created by someone or something? Or did 'he' just suddenly pop out of nothing and immediately time started??? 

And how are those of us who do not support a religion, or your religion in particular, living a 'wicked' lifestyle?? I have no killed anyone, threatened anyone, stolen, etc. but I'm wicked because I am not a god botherer?? How horrible of me. Why is it that the good people of this world seem to get cancer or die other unnatural deaths while the 'evil' of us, who rape, steal, murder and deceive live on? I though god is supposed to look after the 'good people'?
And also, 'wicked' is also often defined as people supporting another religion. Again back to my original post of religion causing war.


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## Brighteyes (Mar 8, 2009)

First, we must remember that this are laws designed for a culture that existed 3,000 years ago. We live in the modern world.

Second, these are Old Testament laws. The New Testament changed _a lot_. No more sacrifices, because we have Jesus. No more High Priests, because, once again, Jesus in the ultimate High Priest. Etc, etc...

With this new order, these laws are no longer valid.  And I'm glad too, because, I must admit, some of this stuff is WEIRD.

"But it says that the Word of God is eternal and unchanging!" 

Not a statement to be taken literally. The Word of God means God himself. God is always there and always just. Some will not agree with me, but, hey, there is a lot to disagree about depending on how you look at things

All the above statements I've made are how *I* look at things. Religions is like a splatter painting. Messy, confusing, and leaves us to figure out what the artist is telling us.


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## Tyler (Feb 10, 2010)

Kayty said:


> You say you believe that god has existed forever etc. "because of the written account in the bible...". Ok... and so how does the bible know that 'god' has existed forever???? If god is the only 'being' to have existed, who is there to say that 'he' has lived forever? What did god do for all those 'forever' years before 'he' 'created' earth?? And when you think of forever.. well thats a very long time. 'God' must have been created by someone or something? Or did 'he' just suddenly pop out of nothing and immediately time started???


Everybody and everything in this world has a beginning and an end, which is why it is so hard to fathom that fact God has always existed. I don't have any specific answers for your questions (maybe someone else does), but I will say this one thing – to get what we have now (our earth, the galaxy, etc.) there had to have been something that existed forever. If you believe in evolution, you have to believe that the elements of our world existed before evolution started happening. I believe that God created what we have now, and believe that He existed forever. Either way, you have to have faith, and I find it much easier (and more logical) to believe the written account of the creation.



Kayty said:


> And how are those of us who do not support a religion, or your religion in particular, living a 'wicked' lifestyle?? I have no killed anyone, threatened anyone, stolen, etc. but I'm wicked because I am not a god botherer?? How horrible of me. Why is it that the good people of this world seem to get cancer or die other unnatural deaths while the 'evil' of us, who rape, steal, murder and deceive live on? I though god is supposed to look after the 'good people'? And also, 'wicked' is also often defined as people supporting another religion. Again back to my original post of religion causing war.


Sorry if I was misunderstood when I was talking about folks living a "wicked" lifestyle. I was just pointing out in God's eyes, someone who has hardly done more than tell a "white lie" is no different than someone who commits the "big sins" because they both have sinned. I wasn't saying at all that you are a wicked person just because you don't believe in God.

@Brighteyes: I agree 100% with you. Good answers! =)


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## TaMMa89 (Apr 12, 2008)

Kayty said:


> You say you believe that god has existed forever etc. "because of the written account in the bible...". Ok... and so how does the bible know that 'god' has existed forever???? If god is the only 'being' to have existed, who is there to say that 'he' has lived forever? What did god do for all those 'forever' years before 'he' 'created' earth?? And when you think of forever.. well thats a very long time. 'God' must have been created by someone or something? Or did 'he' just suddenly pop out of nothing and immediately time started???



The religious part of me agrees with Tyler, it can be hard to understand that 'forever form' because human mind is kinda limited.

About that "how the Bible knows" thing, I think none can give you a certain answer for that. It's just relying something without objectively confirmed proof. That's why it's called religion.


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## Kaioti (Dec 3, 2009)

Speed Racer said:


> Christ preached tolerance and love for _everyone_. He did not say, "Except for all the gays, Jews, Muslims, heathens, women, etc."


Yeah...it was Hitler who said that,lol! 

I'm not religious in any way, but to quote Gandhi, "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are nothing like your Christ"


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## ExquisiteEquines (Feb 15, 2010)

Kaioti said:


> Yeah...it was Hitler who said that,lol!
> 
> I'm not religious in any way, but to quote Gandhi, "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are nothing like your Christ"




Great quote


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

*Christianity's proven by prophecy fulfillment*

The prophecy: Jesus will return to earth, riding a white horse "on clouds of glory", every eye shall see him, then Judgement shall commence, the separation of the elect from the unsaved, the elect to eternal heaven, the unsaved to annihilation. Check out Harold Camping on youtube, who says this'll happen on 5/21/11.  To my mind, this is the be-all end-all prophecy; & whoever _already knows _if it's true or not - well, how lovely for you! You either know, blindly believe, scoff, or are clueless.


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## Kaioti (Dec 3, 2009)

Kayty said:


> Yes see this is where my mind goes ummmmm about religion. Thankyou tripcrowngirl for your answers to my questions, however it is all very much subjective. Now I don't know much about religion and who's god belongs to what religion... but what about god's like Allah? Muslims? (I think...) worship Allah and Allah is the ONE god. So how can we say that 'our god' is 'the only' god? Again it comes back to my original post. Where is the proof? How can you say that the christian god is the only god, totally disregarding every other religion that believes in different gods?
> This is what starts wars, everyone thinks that their faith/beliefs are superior and everyone should conform that that. Hilter for example, believed that Jewish people were evil and should be eradicated. That was his belief and look what came of it. The war on terror that is occuring right as we speak. It's religion again! The terrorists follow their strict religion, and are under the impression that the world should join them. And look where that has got everyone....



Kayty, the fact of the matter is that Judaism, Christianity, and the Muslim faith all share the SAME ROOTS. Their One God, is essentially the Same God.

When these groups fight I see it as being akin to sibling rivalry...and about as intelligent. These fights have more to do with semantics, righteous idealism, territory/assets than anything else. Like fraternal triplets fighting over a toy car. And regarding Muslim and Christian (Jews haven't been so pushy for a LONG time, they are more subtlety subversive) ideas about conversion and other religions, again, it has a lot to do with proving a point and on the basest level, control over people and their land/assets. The soul of greed.

It this point in my life I do not see how one culture's faith is more or less right than any others. They all serve the same purpose, establishing a moral code, laws and order by fear...generally established at a time prior to strong governmental controls, and bening more effective than govt., carrying a bit more weight (when your neighbor you've know since you were kids is a cop, and your faceless god throws lightening bolts who will you give more respect to?.)

What I do see is the current and historical actions made by all conversionist religions, and the damage done. This causes me the disrespect I have for them, as they have justified actions against their own words in order to control more peoples/thoughts/assets. 

Just my two cents.


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## roro (Aug 14, 2009)

^this. So much distraught in the world was caused by attempts to convert people. I think human nature is definitely more powerful than any 'god', if there is one.


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