# Laying a Problem Horse/Colt Down



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I don't like the ropes and raising the leg, Paul Williams, aka Hybrid Horseman has it down to a T.

https://youtu.be/OhFnujdXwXs


----------



## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

I do not like this practice. i do not think it teaches the horse anything.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

In normal circumstances it is not necessary - in some it is.

Paul Silliams, an Aussie working in Japan with racehorses, used it as a quick method for both breaking and sorting problems. 

Yes, other methods might be better but doing it this way he could get more horses started and going well then with the usual training this giving more horses a better chance.

https://youtu.be/M6NUnAoRNLc

This horse could have been taught to lead correctly in the right hands but there are not many of those 'right' hands available in Japan.

He is also a brilliant rider with more 'stick ability' than most!


----------



## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

stevenson said:


> I do not like this practice. i do not think it teaches the horse anything.


While you are certainly entitled to your opinion, as someone who has done this with hundreds of horses, my extensive experience has been incredibly different than your opinion. I do not do this to all types of horses anymore, as I have learned that it is not effective for certain problems and with certain personalities, but for the right ones, this IS a LIFE CHANGING event. It is one of the best and most effective tools in my toolbox.


----------



## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

Foxhunter said:


> I don't like the ropes and raising the leg, Paul Williams, aka Hybrid Horseman has it down to a T.
> 
> https://youtu.be/OhFnujdXwXs


Foxhunter, I learned this technique back in the 90's from Craig Cameron. Since, I have experimented in many ways and explored most all of the little trails off of the side. I keep coming back to doing it exactly like this for several reasons. 
The ropes are necessary for the full effect in my experience. I have done this using no ropes at all and it takes a fair bit longer on average. As I said in the video, this horse took about 13 minutes to get down and completely. That is actually a bit longer than my average. 
I absolutely want them to fight that rope around the foot and learn to yield to and accept it rather than fight it. This is a part of, but not all of getting them safe and fence proof. Ropes are a part of life around horses and I have seen way too many get wrapped up in some kind of rope or wire and panic causing major damage. Learning to yield their feet to the rope to this degree is a huge part of not having that happen. 
There were a few things that I didn't like about that video based on my own experiences and I think that the level to which that horse "let go" vs the level to which my horse did is evident to even a novice. 

I do completely agree that this is not needed on all horses and should not be done by the average horse person. It is not, however, anything medieval or torturous as those who seem to dislike it so passionately seem to believe. THAT is why I decided to share this video. Just watch how softly this horse goes down both times, and completely yields.


----------



## Sharpie (May 24, 2009)

These videos always just blow my mind. On again and off again, it seems like it would be a neat thing to be able to ask my horse to lay down as a trained 'trick.' But it's crazy to me that the right combo of timing and pressure can get these horses that aren't particularly cooperative to start with to lay down (without a dangerous fight) in short order. I am glad for you folks who know how to do this safely for both human and horse. For some of these horses, that change in attitude may be the difference between being a well loved and cared for riding horse and the meat wagon.


----------



## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I have laid a lot of serious problem horses down. I have never figured out exactly what it does. I have always just referred to it as 'messing with their mind' because it really does. The object in my case was not to teach the horse anything but to change a really bad attitude. I got the reputation (not desired, by the way) of being able to turn around vicious horses, several of which had attacked and severely injured owners and trainers. Some had been through several hands with a list of people that had been seriously injured or maimed in some cases. Many were stallions, but not all of them.

It is pretty hard to teach a horse anything if it is diving at people and snapping like an alligator. I've had horses brought to me that had whirled around and kicked a person in the head shattering most of her face and literally kicking an eye out. Her husband brought me the horse while she was in the hospital. He was going to shoot it, but she said she would leave him and never forgive him.

I had a horse brought to me that had attacked a professional trainer, struck him, got him down and continued to attack him. He barely crawled out under a fence with a shattered femur and bone protruding through his Levis. He was crippled for life. Three months later I showed the horse at the Paint Nationals in halter and showed him in Hunt Seat Pleasure after that. None of this would have been possible without laying these horses down.

Some how, it 'humbles' a horse that is very resistant or downright vicious to the point that it CAN be trained. It really messes with one's mind in a very positive way. I am not sure that instead of thinking of the human as what 'put them down on the ground' that they do not look at the human as the 'god (obviously 'little g') that saved them' and and let them live and got them up.

I never thought it was advantageous to do this with every horse. In later years, I discovered that using restraints does the same thing and actually does teach the horse a lot. Really vicious horses that want to lunge at a handler and attack will usually throw themselves down when restraints are used, so they end up there anyway.

We used this just last summer on a 5 year old mare that had attacked people by lunging at them and biting, she kicked them and struck at them. They finally got a saddle on her and it was the next day before anyone could get close enough to her to get it off. Now, you can just bring her up and throw a saddle on her and unsaddle her and ground drive her. She was just one more spoiled horse. We got 4-way hobbles on her and she never did throw herself but sure had an attitude change after being saddled and unsaddled about 20 times while hobbled. The last times, she was so relaxed she never raised her head or set down the hind leg that she had cocked.

I have had many written exchanges with Paul Williams about laying horses down and using his Endo Tap. He definitely has it down to a science. 

I do not know if the Dorrance Brothers used it, but Ray Hunt surely used to lay a lot of the problem horses down that he got in.

I know one thing for sure, restraints and laying a horse down are both MUCH more effective than beating a horse or wearing one out like the CA video shows. I have never hit a horse a single time that started out attacking people and they ended up well trained and gentle. As a matter of fact, many of the vicious horses I have had brought to me had gotten that way with a handler that tried to use whips to control them. 

I have been asked many time to teach people how to use restraints and to lay horses down. I have always declined. When one encounters a horse that really 'needs' to be 4-way hobbled or laid down, they are not just standing there volunteering to give you their front foot or let you put on the 4-way hobbles. I never wanted to see someone killed trying to get to the point that the restraints are one.

I did offer a girl help on the Forum with a really bad horse she was trying to train. Some people will remember her. She went by the name Delete. I helped her by PM and only because she was working with an instructor that also had experience in laying a horse down. And, it worked. The horse straightened up and went on to ride very nicely. Several people had already failed to get the horse going under saddle.

Only a very few horses are that bad or vicious by nature. All of the ones I have been sent (or bought) were spoiled by bad handling. But, once they get that spoiled, the options are few and many are just sent to auction to the killer buyer or are shot.


----------



## rookie (May 14, 2012)

I think its an interesting concept and it works in some cases. I think that the problem is when someone starts using it without fully respecting it. I think some trainers use laying a horse down as a short cut for other methods, like taking a uzi to a knife fight. I also think there is huge potential for horses to get hurt and huge potential for people to get hurt if they don't have some horse sense and some trainers (regardless of years) don't have that sense. I think laying a horse down does mess with them mentally more than physically. I think it works in horses that have learned that they can be stronger than a person. I guess do you find that the behavior problems that were removed by laying horse down reappear during the horses life? ie. does handing a spoiled horse back to its spoiling owner result in the horse reverting to its previous ways? 

I do like how softly the OPs horse went down in the laying down. I am not a huge fan edited videos because that can hide a lot. I am also not a huge fan of laying a horse down in full saddle mostly because it can damage the horse and damage the saddle if things go sideways.


----------



## lovebearsall (Jan 9, 2011)

Daniel, Cherrie, oh how I wish y'all weren't both about 10 hours away from me. I would love to spend a day (or a WEEK) with each of you to just soak up some of your knowledge and learn to be a GOOD horsewoman!!

Thanks for sharing the video Daniel.


----------



## ecasey (Oct 18, 2013)

h e


lovebearsall said:


> Daniel, Cherrie, oh how I wish y'all weren't both about 10 hours away from me. I would love to spend a day (or a WEEK) with each of you to just soak up some of your knowledge and learn to be a GOOD horsewoman!!
> 
> Thanks for sharing the video Daniel.


ME TOO!!

Here's a guy who's done some research and laid it all out for you if you want to read about it. He has the references he used on his footnotes.

Laying a Horse Down -


----------



## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

rookie said:


> I guess do you find that the behavior problems that were removed by laying horse down reappear during the horses life? ie. does handing a spoiled horse back to its spoiling owner result in the horse reverting to its previous ways? This is all about getting them back on the right path. Of course, poor handling down the road can get them off of the road again. Everyone is a trainer, all of the time. No trainer or method can prevent future training. Period. Notice that the owner is watching me do this and will come back and work with me and the horse specifically so that she is prepared to keep him on the road going forward.
> 
> I do like how softly the OPs horse went down in the laying down. I am not a huge fan edited videos because that can hide a lot. I am also not a huge fan of laying a horse down in full saddle mostly because it can damage the horse and damage the saddle if things go sideways.


As to the video being edited, it would have taken hours more to upload the full 45 minutes and nobody would watch the full 45 minutes. I will likely do a dvd for sale on this showing different horses and going a lot more in depth on the how, why, and what it does, at least my opinion of each. As to the saddle, stuff happens. Saddles get torn up, and horses can get hurt, and people can wreck their trucks and trailers while driving, and sharks can kill scuba divers. I am laying them down into soft sand. The stirrup simply sinks into the sand. I've never had one get hurt badly while doing this, and I have never been hurt while doing this. Both could happen tomorrow. That's life...


----------



## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

ecasey said:


> h e
> 
> ME TOO!!
> 
> ...


Interesting reading. I am always leery of those who want to compile and extrapolate with very little in the way of actual experience. In fact, I disagree with a lot of what he has surmised, particularly about the Tonic Immobility. The point of this exercise to me is to break through Involuntary responses like fight or flight and through to conscious acceptance. While I do accept that TI is possible, pushing a horse to that extreme would be to miss the whole point of the exercise IMO. There were a few other points that I disagreed with as well. 

I appreciate you looking for, finding, and presenting that article. I'm not trying to put you down at all, merely offering my personal opinion based on my personal experience, which, again, is having actually done this with hundreds and hundreds of horses.


----------



## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

I am planning on watching the video when I get home and am not at work, but had a quick question regarding laying horses down.

I have a family member who bred really nice horses. 1 never imprinted as a foal and now is a 10 or 11 yo stud living in a pen alone and is very difficult/aggressive to handle. Do you think laying him down would be a reasonable option?

ETA: not my horse, I did not choose to leave him a stud or let this situation get to where it is, I have just been trying to help. Halter broke him a year ago and am hoping to spend a week up there helping him get handle-able enough to get a vet out to geld him and teach him to load so he can be sold.


----------



## cblair8927 (Mar 18, 2015)

DanielDauphin said:


> Read the description, and this isn't a complete how-to, but many of you may find it interesting nonetheless.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYxuDfbGyus



thanks for sharing


----------



## cblair8927 (Mar 18, 2015)

DanielDauphin said:


> Foxhunter, I learned this technique back in the 90's from Craig Cameron. Since, I have experimented in many ways and explored most all of the little trails off of the side. I keep coming back to doing it exactly like this for several reasons.
> The ropes are necessary for the full effect in my experience. I have done this using no ropes at all and it takes a fair bit longer on average. As I said in the video, this horse took about 13 minutes to get down and completely. That is actually a bit longer than my average.
> I absolutely want them to fight that rope around the foot and learn to yield to and accept it rather than fight it. This is a part of, but not all of getting them safe and fence proof. Ropes are a part of life around horses and I have seen way too many get wrapped up in some kind of rope or wire and panic causing major damage. Learning to yield their feet to the rope to this degree is a huge part of not having that happen.
> There were a few things that I didn't like about that video based on my own experiences and I think that the level to which that horse "let go" vs the level to which my horse did is evident to even a novice.
> ...


 Thanks


----------



## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

karliejaye said:


> I am planning on watching the video when I get home and am not at work, but had a quick question regarding laying horses down.
> 
> I have a family member who bred really nice horses. 1 never imprinted as a foal and now is a 10 or 11 yo stud living in a pen alone and is very difficult/aggressive to handle. Do you think laying him down would be a reasonable option?
> 
> ETA: not my horse, I did not choose to leave him a stud or let this situation get to where it is, I have just been trying to help. Halter broke him a year ago and am hoping to spend a week up there helping him get handle-able enough to get a vet out to geld him and teach him to load so he can be sold.


It may well be, but it would be easiest if he could be saddled and best if he was castrated first. I have actually had to do this just so the vet could sedate a colt to be castrated/vaccinated/blood pulled etc.


----------



## ecasey (Oct 18, 2013)

I've seen too many experienced horse people using this method successfully to doubt its efficacy. I just linked that article because it had some interesting info about other species and their reactions to extreme stress that might explain the horse's reaction in the moment of being laid down. I don't think it harms a horse psychologically, mainly because I've seen the horses after and the training they get done in a short period of time and it's amazing. It gives most of them a serious attitude adjustment and makes them more willing.


----------



## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

I am fascinated by this subject. Berry did this -
http://www.amazon.com/Prof-Beerys-Mail-Course-Horsemanship/dp/1453775560
over one hundred years ago, when horses were still utilitarian. The number of horses peaked in the US in 1920. It hasn't been as large before or since, so Berry was addressing common day problems.
I had copies of his books, but I don't know where they went. The ads showed him laying horses down. 
I would like to try this with my 16'3hh gelding. He still needs training and sometimes gets pushy bc he has discovered herd leader status bc of his height and weight. He is not vicious towards people or the other two horses, to whom he gets along with very well. I hardly find cuts and scrapes on any of them. As you all know, there are herd leaders that enjoy hurting other horses.
Still, this morning, while backing him in the 5 minute drill I do turning him out, he grabbed my coat with his teeth. I dealt with it immediately, but I didn't like it.
I'm thinking that laying down at some point soon would do him some good.
I think I'd like to start routinely lifting all of his feet with a rope first, so the rope around his leg won't panic him.


----------



## rookie (May 14, 2012)

Daniel thank you for your response. I think the key word in all this is "professional horsemen". This in my opinion, is not something for the everyday average horse trainer or owner should do. That said in my opinion its even more dangerous in the hands of that so called horse person who thinks they know more than they actually do. I think its something that if done poorly can seriously injure the horse/handler and it can set a horses training back (if you start and don't finish the task). I think its great that you had the owners present. I have seen some "trainers" who don't want the owners involve and that just sets everyone up for failure.


----------



## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

rookie,
I agree completely.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

what sort of problems was this horse having, prior to the lay down?


----------



## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

He was bucking, but from a fear perspective. We are trying to teach him to handle situations better and have more self control.


----------



## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Daniel -- Have you ever used 3-way or 4-way hobbles?

What I found is that they get the same or better result as laying a horse down in all but the worst vicious horses that had attacked people. They get so mad that they usually throw themselves down anyway when they are 4-way hobbled. But, I still think it is the restraints that turn them around.

When you said that you 'wanted' a horse to fight the ropes, THAT was because the 'restraint' is what caused the attitude change -- not the fact that the horse was pulled completely down.

When I went to 3 or 4-way hobbles instead of laying horses down, I not only got the desired result, but I got a horse that would not move if it ever got tangled up in a fence or wire or rope. They just instantly 'gave' to the pressure on their legs instead of going into a panic mode and trying to self-destruct. It stops much of the 'reactiveness' that is the real problem, especially in horses with unreasonable fears. 

When I put 4-way hobbles on a horse, I have learned that I can put an old sock with the toe cut out on the horse's pastern and fetlock. Then I put a layer of Duct Tape on it to hold it there and I can almost always avoid the rope or hobble burns associated with using restraints. 

I also never hobble-train any horse without using at least one side-line back to a single rear hobble. If they never learn to 'hop' when they are first trained to hobbles, most never learn to do this. Without doing this, many horse just learn to hop and some can run nearly as fast with hobbles as they can without them.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I can say I have laid down two horses simultaneously! 

I had to take the horses down a short stretch of road, about 200 yards, to get to the field. At the end of the road about 1/4 mile was a very busy main road. 

Two 2 year old horses were getting a bit above themselves and I needed to use a bridle for more control but being in a hurry I didn't . 
As I led them they started to get a bit strong. A Chinook helicopter flew low overhead, they both looked up and the horse on the inside, moved onto the verge crossed his legs and fell. The other colt tripped over his legs and also went down. 

I was prepared for them to jump up and try to take off but they lay there next to each other and I had to encourage them up. 

They stood quietly blinking at me and walked on correctly. 

I swear that after that I could have led them to and from the field with a piece of cotton around their necks!


----------



## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

How about teaching your horse to go down so that you can mount from the ground?


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

That puts a lot of strain on their backs!


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I agree that laying down a horse should be reserved for a rank kind of horse, where one has to either get through to him, or the horse is headed for the glue factory
If you have to use it in your regular training program, better look at what kind of minds you have in the horses you are raising.
We raise better minded horses today , then in the past, where every horse had to be 'useful', as the World ran on horsepower
Throwing a horse, taking away their option of flight, has a profound effect on them, much like that of a deer, staring in head lights, or a mouse that a cat is playing with.
This can make a rank horse useful, but takes something away from a good minded horse
It is absolute domination
You can teach leg restrain acceptance, without throwing a horse. We taught our trail horses to leg picket
As for teaching a horse to lay down and you can mount, that is hard on a horse, and should be reserved for those that have to mount from a wheelchair
Able bodied people, even with bad knees, like I had for years before double knee replacements, can find many mounting block substitutions, that are way easier on a horse


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I've never found a need to lay down a horse because it bucked - I struggle to see how lying down will help it learn how to be ridden out of a buck?
I've only had dealing with one horse that was so challenging and aggressive that laying it down was the only option.
I will say that he went down just as easily as the horse in your video Daniel - but he'd been handled from birth and well used to people doing things with him. He would also lie there until pulled back up
It did nothing to change his character or improve his behavior under saddle because he simply didn't relate to it - it was just a way to defuse him when he went into 'attack mode'
It didn't stop him going into attack mode when the idea took him because he didn't mind being laid down - just as that horse didn't - in fact he even began to lie down on his own when he wanted to avoid doing something

It's a more useful skill to have when you need to lie a horse down because its injured and standing/moving will result in further damage than in a training situation IMO


----------



## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

Cherie,
I do train pretty much all of them to hobble, but I only have standard hobbles that go on both front legs. I would certainly like to try out the 3 and 4 way versions, just haven't gotten any to play with yet. 
Hobbling, at least the front legs, has definitely had it's impact and is now standard fair for my colts. I also take my sons (about to be 3 and 9) horse camping a lot where we highline them and hobble out. It certainly makes for a more user friendly horse.


----------



## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

Can anyone explain how Endospinks the TAP works?

I've watched his videos several times and I don't see how it works? It looks like Clinton Anderson's lateral flexion.

From a trick training perspective it is very easy to train a horse to lie down. Give them a bath, and wait for them to go down to roll, than interrupt them from rolling and reward like crazy. Add a signal command to that, such as a tap in front of the withers, and pretty soon, your horse lays down on command! 

I've known two trainers who would lay a horse down. Neither were people I would send any of my horses too. Both rushed their training and skipped steps I consider important. Their horses were not rank, and really didn't need to be laid down.


----------



## greenhaven (Jun 7, 2014)

Cherie said:


> When I went to 3 or 4-way hobbles instead of laying horses down, I not only got the desired result, but I got a horse that would not move if it ever got tangled up in a fence or wire or rope. They just instantly 'gave' to the pressure on their legs instead of going into a panic mode and trying to self-destruct.


It is my absolute intention to have my gelding hobble-trained, whether I ever have to do it again or not, and for exactly this reason. I do not want panicking in confined situations, which can make a bad situation worse.



Foxhunter said:


> I can say I have laid down two horses simultaneously!
> 
> I had to take the horses down a short stretch of road, about 200 yards, to get to the field. At the end of the road about 1/4 mile was a very busy main road.
> 
> ...


I will never, ever cease asking you to consider writing a book. So you can give in and write it, and make a ton of money, or you can listen to me whine about it for the next thirty years.


----------



## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

I had a situation like Foxhunter, My horse, due to his on hijinks, ended up sliding under a fence. I laid my hand on his neck and slip a lead rope on him, he got up, shook, licked, and I swear he was a different horse.

Me, and my lack of knowledge compared to y'all, really didn't correlate it with laying a horse down.

Can the experience be akin to a horse being laid down on purpose as in the videos? I'm curious to hear for those with more experience than I.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I've had horses that fell accidentally be shaken by it - its a preservation thing that can put some of them off jumping - this hurts/is scary so maybe lets not do it again
When you lay a horse down its a controlled training experience (or should be) and so no different to any other training thing you do with them.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

DanielDauphin said:


> Cherie,
> I do train pretty much all of them to hobble, but I only have standard hobbles that go on both front legs. I would certainly like to try out the 3 and 4 way versions, just haven't gotten any to play with yet.
> Hobbling, at least the front legs, has definitely had it's impact and is now standard fair for my colts. I also take my sons (about to be 3 and 9) horse camping a lot where we highline them and hobble out. It certainly makes for a more user friendly horse.



Good luck on relying just on hobbling front legs to keep horses around camp!
Many horses learn to travel very well with hobbles on, and in fact, we had a rented pack horse that was hobbled and traveled all the way to base camp, during the night, including a few river crossings
We had a friend that would tie the halter lead shank to the connection of the two front hobbles, and that prevented to horse from being able to elevate the head enough to bound
If in base camp, we hi line with hay bags.
If packed in, our horses are leg picketed morning and night, but spend the night tied solid. Found that best, after we had our horses leave in the middle of the night once, when a blizzard moved in.


----------



## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

That's exactly why we use a side-line hobble. Regular hobbles with a single hobble (often called a 'picket hobble') fastened from the center of the front hobbles to a hind pastern with a rope, usually about 4 feet long, prevents ALL hopping and only lets the horse 'shuffle' around slowly. These are what I refer to as 3-way hobbles. This is MUCH more effective than trying to tie a lead-rope to the front hobbles.

On the other hand, I have known of horses hopping 10 miles from hunting camp with just front hobbles on. 

Three-way hobbling is how we teach EVERY horse to stand hobbled. After a horse has been hobbled this way several times, we have always been able to just use regular front hobbles and the horses have not learned to hop later. 

When I used to take people out on pack trips and for elk hunts in the Colorado Wilderness Areas, I always used 3-way hobbles with a side-line or picketed them by a single front foot hobble. People used to be amazed at how well horses handled a picket hobble. It takes very little time to teach them to picket out and they never get rope burns or get tangled up.


----------



## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

Cherie,
I'm a gonna play with that. Thanks!


----------



## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Let us know how that works for you. We just use an old sock over a horse's pastern with Duct Tape over it to keep one from chaffing.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Like Cherie, I can only 'suppose' a reason as to why laying a horse down works and that is to look at nature.

When a wild animal is hunted by serval predators, lions, wolves, wild dogs, hyenas, and the prey is brought down, it might struggle for a moment or two and then just lays there waiting for death. (I have also noticed in several wild life films how one of the hunters will often grab the prey's nose and hang on so it is very similar to that animal being twitched.) 

I think that once down the horse is expecting death, it is at its most vulnerable, it has fought against going down and lost so, next instinct is to accept death. 

Once down the horse finds that nothing terrible has happened, to the contrary, it has been rubbed all over and petted. The fact that the human put it there and didn't kill it seems to flick a switch, the horse knows the human can and will put it at its most vulnerable and never harmed it so, it might as well accept the leadership. 

Just my way of trying to put an answer to the 'why'


----------



## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

When I was at my wit's end with my gelding (around a year old I'm guessing) I laid him down 2 or 3 times. I didn't notice any miraculous effects but I am riding him now at age 5, so it certainly didn't do any harm. He was just so rambunctious, mouthy, high spirited, wouldn't lead well, etc. But not vicious. I was at my wit's end but he wasn't a dangerous horse, more like ADHD and it was dangerous because he's a horse and I'm a human. (Although looking back what triggered the first episode was him turning his butt to me in a threat to kick).

Anyway, what brings this to mind is that someone mentioned hobbling and getting tangled in fences and I have NEVER hobble trained my gelding. I guess because I was afraid he would break a leg, but I've accidentally ridden him into tangles of barbed wire on several occasions (old fence-lines have decayed or been burned by wildfires and leave wire all over the forest) and he has never once fought it or even gotten scared. And it's happened way too many times to be luck. 

He will stop and refuse to go forward. And if I don't realize that's why he has stopped and ask him to move again, he will try to move again, stop and just stand there. That's when I've realized his has his feet in wire. :shock: So now I'm thinking I've hobble broke him in an around-about way by laying him down. Weird, huh? 

I never noticed any miraculous personality change. He still thinks highly of himself and is very mouthy. But maybe there was a positive effect afterall, because at the very least, he yeilds to all pressure on his legs. 

The only bad thing I've noticed (that I believe is from laying him down) is that if you hold up a front leg too long, he will start to "sink" like he is going to go down. So I let go before that happens. And a couple times backing out of the horse trailer he's scrambled and almost laid down. Has anyone noticed that effect.......that the horse might be more likely to lay down in the future in times you DON'T want them to? Thankfully, he's never done that with the barbed-wire senarios. But I'm thinking I over-did it and now when his legs are "taken away from him" he thinks he's supposed to lay down.

Doing it to begin with was probably wrong, but I was desperate and on the verge of not keeping him. At least now he's a riding horse and we have a good relationship.

So has anyone else noticed that they have a tendency to want to go down at odd times after that? 

I am glad he's broke to barbed wire though. That has saved our butt so many times! I never really thought about a correlation between laying a horse down and hobble breaking. But now I've had an ah-ha moment and figure that's probably where his good behavior in the wire comes from. He was also imprinted for whatever it's worth. 

I'm not proud of it, so please know this what coming from someone who didn't want to give up her first and only foal. I'm just curious about the effects of laying a horse down and would like to discuss it with more experienced people.


----------

