# Brown or Bay?



## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

I'm gonna say brown. Very cute. I love browns. =]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Definitely looks brown to me


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

The darker areas over his bum/croup area, neck, and the front of his face make me lean towards brown. Winter pictures would confirm.


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## EliRose (Aug 12, 2012)

Cool! His owner wouldn't be too pleased (she's a witch and hasn't seen him in two years D but still cool! Tyler is registered as a dark bay, btw. He also turns like blue/gray when clipped, which I'm pretty sure doesn't mean anything but is certainly awesome to look at!


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

He's a bay....he has the black points....


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## Spotted (Sep 19, 2012)

I've seen sooty buckskins that look similar! do you have more photo's?


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## HollyBubbles (Jun 22, 2009)

Muppetgirl, thats what I thought too, but I'm getting very confused :lol: my horse is definately a brown, but I think the OPs horse is a Bay aswell because I don't see any brown points, I see black points..

Just to show an example of my brown horse, with brown points. This is coming into summer









And this is part-way through winter, when the brown points are more obvious


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## HowClever (Feb 16, 2010)

My vote is firmly on brown.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Muppetgirl said:


> He's a bay....he has the black points....


Brown horses also have black points. The gene that causes brown is a mutation of the agouti gene, the same one that bay is a version of. So they do things similarly, hence why both have black points. 

These horses are all brown. Note the black on their points.


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## EliRose (Aug 12, 2012)

ijafisdfinaisn -keyboard slam- The photos refuse to upload T.T However there is a decent picture of his head in my horsey/barn-thing if anyone thinks it would help.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Haha good grief, I surrender.....it's all too confusing! I've been around horses for years.....and I am really surprised by all the different names, terms, and descriptions of all the colors and color possibilities!:shock:


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Muppetgirl said:


> Haha good grief, I surrender.....it's all too confusing! I've been around horses for years.....and I am really surprised by all the different names, terms, and descriptions of all the colors and color possibilities!:shock:


The differences between brown and bay are easy to spot once you know what to look for 

Let's look at this guy. He is fairly textbook for brown, making it very easy to see what you are looking at. 










Brown and bay are mutations of the same gene, so they act in a similar way. Bay (A) restricts black production over the majority of the body, only allowing it to be on the "hard" points of the horse - the extremities such as mane, tail, legs, ears etc. Brown (At), on the other hand, only really restricts black production from the "soft" parts of the horse - flank, muzzle, behind the eye, elbow, under the tail etc. Brown will often allow extensive black on the rest of the horse, as we see in our test case here. Other times, however, brown will mimic closely to bay, and you can be hard pressed to see the difference. That is where winter pictures come in - brown horses tend to change from season to season a bit more than bay horses do, and it is often in winter coat that we can see the clear restriction of black in the soft parts.

Attached is an image that has the soft parts highlighted, to really bring your eye to them.


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## StarfireSparrow (Jan 19, 2009)

So, not to hijack the thread, but is Caesar bay or brown? He has a lighter muzzle but not around his eyes or flanks.


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

So which is Belle ? I'd love to know Passport says bay and she is pretty much always described as a boring bay tb. 
Winter 

















Summer


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

...but learning frm other threads...technically brown as she has paler points?

The thing is, in common usage of the term "bay" (and understanding) I doubt I will persuade anyone that she is brown over here:?


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Caesar is brown, and Belle is brown


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Yay brown!


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## StarfireSparrow (Jan 19, 2009)

I was starting to think that, but I wasn't sure.


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

Chiilaa said:


> Caesar is brown, and Belle is brown


I totally understand now thankyou , (have read other threads too).

I think there are different levels of reading and understanding colour though, over here (UK) she is bay in the general understanding of the term and common usage and that wont change by her being technically brown:lol: If the majority use a term to mean a colour brown with black mane and tail and legs (and are technically wrong) then that term has it's own meaning and that doesn't make it wrong (like the word "gay" meant happy originally but now has a whole new life and valid meaning). Also, you will never tell the irish that their connemara ponies are not duns! :lol:


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

I have asked the same question on a small UK forum to see if it is just me who is so uneducated on the matter

For your interest http://www.trotonline.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?50273-Bays-and-browns&p=776898#post776898


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

According to a member on the UK forum (on the thread posted above), most of these bays which you think are brown are indeed bays with variations....now I don't know who is correct. Anyone actually have scientific evidence?


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## HollyBubbles (Jun 22, 2009)

Clava said:


> According to a member on the UK forum (on the thread posted above), most of these bays which you think are brown are indeed bays with variations....now I don't know who is correct. Anyone actually have scientific evidence?


lets just call them Bayrown :lol:


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Clava said:


> According to a member on the UK forum (on the thread posted above), most of these bays which you think are brown are indeed bays with variations....now I don't know who is correct. Anyone actually have scientific evidence?


This is the only lab that currently tests for brown. They have isolated the At gene, but they have not released a paper on it yet.

Pet DNA Testing Lab


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

A good informative article on brown:

The Enigmatic Brown Horse | Color Genetics


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## EliRose (Aug 12, 2012)

I got some winter coat pics today! Unfortunately they are not loading on my laptop, and I can only post one at a time on my phone :evil:

Here is the teddy bear, looking very dirty and fluffy in his field


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## EliRose (Aug 12, 2012)

O.O okay that's the wrong picture! Here is the actual one:


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

Chiilaa said:


> A good informative article on brown:
> 
> The Enigmatic Brown Horse | Color Genetics


 
Thank you...any other sites. I still find this very confusing as opinions are so different in the UK.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Opinions may well be different, but if there is genetic proof who can argue that?


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

NdAppy said:


> Opinions may well be different, but if there is genetic proof who can argue that?


I can't argue it as I simply don't know enough  , but there are some interesting counter arguements here which go with what I have previously thought to be the case. Bit hard to link two discussions at once by I'm reading them together :lol:
http://www.trotonline.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?50273-Bays-and-browns&p=777333#post777333


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Elirose - definitely brown


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## EliRose (Aug 12, 2012)

Chiilaa said:


> Elirose - definitely brown


Awesome! Now I can finally clip him and turn him blue, haha!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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