# Farriers wearing masks



## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

You - evidently- have - never - trimmed - or - shod - horses.

I have, albeit just my own and a few neighbors here and there. I am sorry but you put that thing on your face and try to breath, sweat, and get a hoof trimmed & trimmed correctly.

I will wear a mask but I sure as heck will never ask my farrier to wear one. Any of them that can tolerate a mask while trimming, especially in this gawd-awful heat/humidity are Saints, possessing the patience of Job.

FWIW, I am also retired (since 2011) so I feel I can just “say it”, whereas the younger folks on here may want to be way more PC


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

This is probably going to come off as me being a jerk but if you require people to wear one on your property and he refuses and doesn't mind losing a client over it, I don't see the big deal. 
Neither one of you are willing to compromise. 
After the fact why should you think it's not hard to wear a mask trimming/shoeing horses because you wear one performing tasks around your home?


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

No, just no. I'll wear one if I am holding a horse for someone working on a horse but I'm not asking a farrier to wear one. Not doing that type of work. I trim mine or hold and direct and I wouldn't ask that of anyone. Quick way to have a person passed out under a horse.


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## ksbowman (Oct 30, 2018)

If it is that important to you , your mask should have been sufficient. If you are holding the head of the horse you can turn 180* the farrier while he works the front and most the time he would be facing away from you. When he is working the back you can still maintain your 6' distance. When outside I never wear a mask people or not, and especially as I am working. I think you lost a farrier that you like his work over something that could have been avoided. The mask hysteria is something I don't understand unless you have a medical condition making you terribly susceptible. By the way I will be 70 in a month and have been retired 15 years so I am part of the group most affected.


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

I guess I disagree with the some of the responses. During the current moment in time, I assume that the expectation any time in close contact with someone, and certainly any time inside, is that a mask is required. In a private setting, if both parties discuss and agree it's not, so be it. My vet still makes farm calls right now, is wearing a mask and is asking that anyone handling horses in the barn does. No problem. The first time my farrier came during the pandemic, he arrived, I asked him if he wanted _me _in a mask and what his preference was, and he said he didn't mind if I didn't have one and he didn't feel the need for one but would use it if I asked. We both agreed we were ok without. We're in the state with the lowest transmission rate in the country, but any one-on-one interaction here generally starts with a conversation about "ground rules."

I do agree that if you asked, he refused, and that was not acceptable, then the only option was to part ways. It's unfortunate, but you need to feel comfortable. But like Cowchick said, if he didn't mind losing a client and OP didn't feel comfortable without, then that's the answer. And no, I don't understand the refusal to respect someone's request to use one while in their barn, regardless of their profession. I've had contractors in my house rebuilding rooms from the studs up, I've had people installing plumbing and electric, etc., and they all wore masks in the middle of the summer with no air conditioning. That was their own standard operating procedure, not my request.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Your choice. His choice. 

End of story. 

To avoid unpleasantries in the future, I would let potential farriers know if your requirement.

I wouldn't wear one trimming, stacking hay or salt blocks, myself. Wouldn't need to fencing or riding outside. I do when schooling inside because of dust.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

I don't know. All of our horse work occurs outside and we try to social distance, and I'm not really at a high risk (except for being an ex-cancer patient), so we sort of let the horse people do whatever. My current farrier doesn't mask and doesn't care if we do. The one before her was pregnant the last few times, and she asked her clients, if they were going to hold the horses, to mask, but she didn't. So maybe it IS hard to work on a horse with a mask? I have been watching a lot of farrier videos lately (I'm working up to trimming my own) and they do tend to breathe pretty hard while they are working.

The bodyworker came out yesterday. About halfway through the appointment, my teenage daughter left and went to the car and got her mask on. She felt like that since this lady was going to a lot of different barns, she was a potential carrier and should put a mask on. But rather than tell her that, she just got her own mask on. Again, I didn't wear a mask, but I wasn't holding the horse or standing too close to this lady. I feel like in this situation everyone did what they were personally comfortable with, and I am one of those people who wears a mask in public if I'm inside, but not if I'm outside and socially distanced.

Your farrier was already dragging his feet on coming out. So maybe this isn't a bad thing. Now you know that your relationship is over and you can concentrate on finding a new farrier. You would definitely want to ask, when you call them, if they would be willing to wear a mask. It sounds like you are older, so you can explain to them that you are at higher risk and that's why you are asking. Farriers can have strong opinions... about everything...


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## americanwarmblood (Aug 20, 2020)

Unfotunately, there isn't a choice. To endanger me and my family over a horse trim seems like nonsense to me. Like I said, I have worked harder than anyone ever could on a hoof trim with a mask and have been doing it for years. American Farriers have come up with some good guidelines. I don't expect the farrier to follow all of their guidelines, but I won't budge on the masks. It boils down to how hungry a farrier will become before they adapt to the situation. I will do it myself if I have to.....done more than a few in my lifetime.


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## ClearDonkey (Nov 27, 2016)

I choose to wear a mask and socially distance - and have been since March. 

My farrier knows that I prefer to following social distancing while she is out - BUT, it has been consistently in the high 80's and HUMID. Anytime she trims, there is a puddle of sweat underneath where her head is during the trim. By the end of trimming my horses, there are 4 separate puddles of sweat under each one of my horses.

If I asked her to wear a mask on top of it - I would think she was crazy to not just walk out and never come back - but I would expect her to do so politely nonetheless. Now if she were to spit out her nasty tobacco onto my property...that is a whole separate issue. She would be told to clean it up NOW and leave. I don't tolerate nasty habits when I'm paying for a service.


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## americanwarmblood (Aug 20, 2020)

egrogan said:


> I guess I disagree with the some of the responses. During the current moment in time, I assume that the expectation any time in close contact with someone, and certainly any time inside, is that a mask is required. In a private setting, if both parties discuss and agree it's not, so be it. My vet still makes farm calls right now, is wearing a mask and is asking that anyone handling horses in the barn does. No problem. The first time my farrier came during the pandemic, he arrived, I asked him if he wanted _me _in a mask and what his preference was, and he said he didn't mind if I didn't have one and he didn't feel the need for one but would use it if I asked. We both agreed we were ok without. We're in the state with the lowest transmission rate in the country, but any one-on-one interaction here generally starts with a conversation about "ground rules."
> 
> I do agree that if you asked, he refused, and that was not acceptable, then the only option was to part ways. It's unfortunate, but you need to feel comfortable. But like Cowchick said, if he didn't mind losing a client and OP didn't feel comfortable without, then that's the answer. And no, I don't understand the refusal to respect someone's request to use one while in their barn, regardless of their profession. I've had contractors in my house rebuilding rooms from the studs up, I've had people installing plumbing and electric, etc., and they all wore masks in the middle of the summer with no air conditioning. That was their own standard operating procedure, not my request.


I appreciate your reply. It's a tough ordeal. We are all in this together. We have been in self isolation for months because we are at high risk. I don't know what the big barns are doing, but if I had a business and employees, I would be concerned about anyone coming onto the farm. The farriers around here work the racetracks in the surrounding states and they dont self quarrantine when coming to New Mexico. I don't want to say what is good for someone else, but I can say what is good for us.


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

americanwarmblood said:


> Unfotunately, there isn't a choice. To endanger me and my family over a horse trim seems like nonsense to me. Like I said, I have worked harder than anyone ever could on a hoof trim with a mask and have been doing it for years. American Farriers have come up with some good guidelines. I don't expect the farrier to follow all of their guidelines, but I won't budge on the masks. It boils down to how hungry a farrier will become before they adapt to the situation. I will do it myself if I have to.....done more than a few in my lifetime.


As was said, you both got what you wanted. 

A good farrier with established clients won't go hungry over losing an occasional trim job with one client. That won't really be an issue if this area has a lot of horses to do and he is any good, particularly with the more difficult shoeing. 

This wouldn't have been the first trim since the COVID-19 scare so what happened the last few times?

Masks are a highly politically charged issue right now, especially in your state. Something tells me there is more to the story, but in the end I'd say it is a net positive. You can find a farrier who can trim and wear a mask as per your wishes, and this farrier can dip copenhagen and go maskless for the clients who don't care. Win win


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Yes it’s a win-win. I hope the OP can find a farrier that won’t sore the horses up and is perfectly fine wearing g mask.

My therapeutic farrier is also in nursing school because horses have already cost her a neck surgery in her early 40’s. She has already let my 73 year old self know, if her school decides to have real clinicals, I am not allowed in the barn while she shoes my foundered horse and trims the other one.

She has worked on these horses 3-1/2 years and they just about hand the tools to her, so that’s fine by me.

I’m only at risk because I am 73 but I very much respect why she would not allow me in the barn with my own horses

There’s more than one way to skin the mask cat if the horses are well mannered. I stand by what I said in my initial post. Unless there IS more to this story than the OP is telling, I feel he cut his nose to spite his face and the end result may very well be a farrier willing to wear a mask but unqualified enough to where he/she could lame up a cadaver hoof———


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## americanwarmblood (Aug 20, 2020)

*covid pandemic*



jgnmoose said:


> As was said, you both got what you wanted.
> 
> A good farrier with established clients won't go hungry over losing an occasional trim job with one client. That won't really be an issue if this area has a lot of horses to do and he is any good, particularly with the more difficult shoeing.
> This wouldn't have been the first trim since the COVID-19 scare so what happened the last few times?
> Masks are a highly politically charged issue right now, especially in your state. Something tells me there is more to the story, but in the end I'd say it is a net positive. You can find a farrier who can trim and wear a mask as per your wishes, and this farrier can dip copenhagen and go maskless for the clients who don't care. Win win


 I doubt that I am the only client who feels this way.

The last time we had him come out for a trim was 3 months ago. We have been trying for three weeks to get him out. The last time he came out we didn't have any infections in the county. Even at that I did wear a mask. I have always been a man of science. I am driven by the facts. Masks in public are mandated by law. Farriers are considered essential services but they must mask up and self quarantine for 14 days when returning to the state. 

Everyone I know around here thinks the Gov is doing a great job with the pandemic.The data shows that she is doing a fine job.

We considered him to be a friend. The horses liked him too. We consider it a loss. I am still trying to get my arms around why it was necessary.
:runninghorse2:


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

Depends on the temperature. I think its better really that the owner/handler wear a mask and the farrier can do his job and able to breathe easy. Its back breaking work enough without being stifled and oxygen deprived. Even better if your horse stands well just leave them to it. I know that with my mare I can just leave her tied up and watch from a distance as a farrier shoes her even and she'll be well behaved.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

_*Welcome to the Forum...*_

I'm not going to say fault is from one or the other.
A matter of choice, differing has created a issue for you now you must find a new, competent farrier and quickly as your horses are already very over-due.........
I don't and never have felt the need to hold my horses...they all cross-tie dependably and this has always allowed my farrier the ability to work me into his busy schedule best...

Our horses are in the backyard and I have money in the barn waiting for my farrier.
He comes and takes care of my horses on his own.
If I have a concern I let him know when he texts me confirming our app't...he gets back to me with his findings if needed.
It works for us, but my horses are well-behaved and will stand quietly in place actually with no halter needed for my farrier..
My farrier goes to many barns a day and can be in the presence of many people...he tries to be careful and it was him who asked if he could come and do without offending me if we kept distant _to protect us..._
I leave a cold drink for him on a table for when he finishes in a disposable large cup...
I don't need to be present, my money is..._my guy takes care of the rest. :smile:_
_:runninghorse2:...._


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

If you feel that strongly about wearing a mask, have at it! And feel free to insist those you hire do likewise. Me? Heck, my farrier and I even shook hands as he was heading out. But your land, your horses, your rules. Or part company.

If my farrier came here and expected me to mask up, we might well part company. And if I insisted on him masking up, I know we would part company. And I thank God I'm not living in New Mexico!

Truth be told, I suspect some New Mexicans feel the same way about me - "_Thank God he doesn't live here!_"....:shrug:


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I just think it's about manners and respecting other people. If you feel a mask was necessary and the farrier didn't care enough about your concerns to do something as simple as wearing a mask........and the farrier would rather spit tobacco and be a jerk, good riddance.

I know hoof trimming is hard work. I am my own farrier. Sometimes I get so tired I can't hardly straighten up or don't know if I will be able to finish. But paid farriers are generally faster and are more fit than I am. I am a 40 something overweight woman. I would expect a professional farrier would be quicker and more efficient than me, and all the ones I've seen are!

Of course I would rather not wear a mask (nobody likes wearing a mask), but if I were a professional farrier I would think that wearing a mask for an hour or so would be a small price to pay to keep a client happy.

I wear a mask every time I am in public. It sucks. It's hot. But hey, I want others to do the same. It's a team effort. If I go to the grocery store and 90% of the people are wearing a mask and I see one without, I think "what a jerk." Nobody has to wear a mask in the great outdoors if they aren't in close proximity to other people. Or in their own home. But I think it's polite to wear one around other people and especially if it is important to them. 

So I think he was a jerk. Go let him spit tobacco and spread COVID someplace else. Sweating bullets for an hour wouldn't have killed him. I think the pandemic shows a lot about who people really are. If they are respectful and care about other people (even if they personally don't think a mask is necessary) or if they are selfish only care about themselves. Your farrier only cared about himself.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

I can see both sides. Obviously, if you have worn a mask for years, it's for other than Covid safety. If, at this time, you require others to wear masks when they're around you on your property, entirely your call. 

In this neck of the woods at the mo(Vic, Aus), mask wearing is mandatory off your own property for anyone, and if you have workmen on your property everyone's meant to wear too. *Unless actively doing 'strenuous exercise' - which I'd argue, trimming horses in summer could come under. So, here, to follow the 'letter of the law', a farrier should indeed be wearing a mask on someone else's property when he's not actively trimming. But while he IS trimming he is allowed to take it off. 

If not wearing a mask is unacceptable to you, again, fair enough, we all have to take the measures we feel are necessary for safety. So if that were me, I'd have asked him & when he refused, far from having 'heated words', I would have *apologised* for not letting him know before he arrived & so I wasted his time(& perhaps offered compensation for his time & travel), and said I'd like to employ him again when this was all over. 

But what I'd have _actually_ done, was request that he wear a mask at other times than actively working, if he had to be close to me, and just let him work without me holding the horse, if I didn't feel safe at that distance from him(tho you could prob be 1.5m away from him for the most part & he'd be facing away from you for the most part, and you could also ensure you were facing away, so I personally wouldn't worry, if you're both being otherwise sensible...


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## RMH (Jul 26, 2016)

I've tried to wear a mask and find I can't breath well enough to do strenuous work with one whether it's a paper dust mask or a homemade cloth mask. I trim my horses feet and know it is strenuous work. A few weeks back my wife had a positive covid test which meant she was quarantined to her room and the kids and I were quarantined to the farm. I sell hay, straw, grain and eggs from the farm. I let my customers know before coming out of our situation. Most didn't care, some wore masks, and for some I left the building open and they got their stuff self serve with no contact from me. We were recently tested and all were covid negative. My wife's symptoms were nothing more than a head ache and a mild fever so I'm not sure if she had it or not. I'll wear a mask when going to someone's business if that's what they require but I prefer not to wear one at home especially if I'm doing anything strenuous. I think your situation was a lack of communication. You should have stated when setting up the appointment that you would require a mask when working on your property. The farrier could have accepted your conditions or declined to do your horses. Confrontation avoided. My solution would have been to stall the horses, provide some area to tie them, and let the farrier work on them alone.


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## csimkunas6 (Apr 18, 2010)

Ive had my farrier out to my place, a brand inspector, my vet and even taken my horse two counties away to a vet.....the county I had to take my horse to has the highest number of covid cases in the state....no masks what so ever.

If you want to wear a mask, go for it, if you want your farrier to wear a mask fine....but why let it escalate to the point you lost your farrier? Could you not have had them trimmed outside? Not sure of the regulations in NM but masks arent required outside where Im located.

Regardless, sounds like you burned that bridge and are going to have to find are farrier or trim yourself.....Id let future farriers know you require masks so no one's time is wasted....best of luck


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

What I cannot understand is why, with well handled and trained horses they have to be held for the farrier? 

I would tie horses needing to be shod side by side at one end of the barn, the farrier would reverse his truck in behind them and set to work. 

Trims were usually done in the stable, usually the apprentices would do them (checked by the farrier) and the only ones held were the yearlings and foals. 

It is mandatory that people wear masks in shops, I do but find it suffocating in the heat and we are nowhere near the temps you get across the pond.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

@Foxhunter , I normally hold mine, one after the other. No place in the corral to tie them. Main point of holding them is to discuss what is going on with their hooves. Or sometimes, to shoo Bandit away. His intentions are good but Bandit sometimes gives the vibe that he might try to liven things up. Just in fun, mind you.

But as a rule, if I'm not there, the farrier tucks one end of the lead rope in his pocket and gets the job done. I leave a check on our front porch for him to pick up. If he sees something notable he'll text me.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

I trim and will shoe one of horses with my farriers' help. If I had to wear face covering, I could do it, it would be too much of a hardship. I doubt you're going to find another farrier who's going to trim your horses with a face covering.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

I have trimmed my horses feet plenty of times and I'm dripping in sweat by the second hoof and ready to quit anyway. I know that farriers are more experienced and can probably tolerate a little more. But, there is no way that I would be able to do it with a mask on. There's just no way.

I wouldn't have lost a good farrier over it. Honestly, the masks really are for when social distancing of at least 6 feet is not possible. I'm really not getting the idea of living in a mask.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

Asthmatic here so high risk category. When the farrier comes he doesn't wear a mask, nor would I expect him to, and I don't wear a mask. When holding them for him I simply keep the horse between the two of us, so if he's working on the left side, I'm standing on the right. He's bent over with his mouth/nose facing the ground. I'm upright with my mouth/nose facing forward. I feel like that keeps up both safe enough. If I feel a cough coming on I'll pull the neck of my t-shirt over my mouth and nose. I have a hard enough time breathing through the masks inside an air conditioned store, I couldn't handle it out in the heat and humidity while doing physical labor.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

Kalraii said:


> Depends on the temperature. I think its better really that the owner/handler wear a mask and the farrier can do his job and able to breathe easy. Its back breaking work enough without being stifled and oxygen deprived. Even better if your horse stands well just leave them to it. I know that with my mare I can just leave her tied up and watch from a distance as a farrier shoes her even and she'll be well behaved.


That's what I was thinking. My horses are not well behaved enough to just stand there. If they see a wisp of hay over there on the ground, they'll probably go for it. But they will stand there behaved if they are tied.


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## secuono (Jul 6, 2011)

Good for you!
I only trim my own 5 horses, but I could wear a mask the whole time, no problem! I may have to change for a new one or three, once it gets sweat-logged, but that's no issue either.
Don't let the people here saying "a farrier can't wear one" bother you! Stick to your standards!


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## americanwarmblood (Aug 20, 2020)

We don't shoe anymore. The hoof problems have finally abated. It was really difficult when we moved to the desert. Cyanide poisoning from Sudan, Johnson and Fescue during a drought. Two horses were so lame I thought we would have to put them down. Two years and $5,000 later they are back to normal. They are all northern horses from green pastures. I know those horses better than anyone. I see their hooves every day. So, this afternoon I went shopping and bought the best farrier equipment I can afford. The wife came up with the idea to trim one horse a day. So wish me luck. No mask required.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

JCnGrace said:


> When holding them for him I simply keep the horse between the two of us, so if he's working on the left side, I'm standing on the right.


May I suggest that for safety reasons, you DON'T do this? If the horse spooks, tries to pull away or whatever, he is more likely to do it AWAY from someone, but if you're on either side of him, that means he'll have to jump onto someone. Also, if the horse does get a bit reactive and you're on the same side as the farrier, you can pull his head around to you which will cause him to swing his rump away from the farrier. 

While I'm a bit blase about this with horses I know well in calm situations, for new clients, green or iffy horses or situations, I always try to make sure the horse holder is camped on the same side of the horse. 

If that means that, re virus risk, you're too close to said farrier, either tie the horse & move away, give the farrier the lead & move away, or have the horse in a yard.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

americanwarmblood said:


> We don't shoe anymore. The hoof problems have finally abated. It was really difficult when we moved to the desert. Cyanide poisoning from Sudan, Johnson and Fescue during a drought. Two horses were so lame I thought we would have to put them down. Two years and $5,000 later they are back to normal. They are all northern horses from green pastures. I know those horses better than anyone. I see their hooves every day. So, this afternoon I went shopping and bought the best farrier equipment I can afford. The wife came up with the idea to trim one horse a day. So wish me luck. No mask required.


Cyanide poisoning eh?? Old gold country by any chance?? Worked on a place animals started getting sick & turned out to be an old gold mine upstream & they used cyanide to treat the gold somehow.

And good for you to give it a go - yeah, nothing to say you even have to do a full horse in one fell swoop if you're not up to it, and also, if you get them up to scratch, you can just keep them maintained with short, easy, frequent trimming, instead of waiting till it's a big job - I know an older lady who does her own 2 horses & she does a foot a day, 2 on Saturdays! 

I do recommend that, even as you mentioned, you've done it before, you might have been skilled at it, that you learn all you can about hoof form & function, balance, etc, so you can do the best job possible, understand all factors. If you learned a while back, there are a number of ideas/factors which are sort of 'outdated' these days. You're also welcome to pick my brains, and there are other experienced trimmers here too. You can also start a thread in the hoofcare section & post pics of your horse's feets - check out the link in my signature line for what angles etc are needed.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

loosie said:


> May I suggest that for safety reasons, you DON'T do this? If the horse spooks, tries to pull away or whatever, he is more likely to do it AWAY from someone, but if you're on either side of him, that means he'll have to jump onto someone. Also, if the horse does get a bit reactive and you're on the same side as the farrier, you can pull his head around to you which will cause him to swing his rump away from the farrier.
> 
> While I'm a bit blase about this with horses I know well in calm situations, for new clients, green or iffy horses or situations, I always try to make sure the horse holder is camped on the same side of the horse.
> 
> If that means that, re virus risk, you're too close to said farrier, either tie the horse & move away, give the farrier the lead & move away, or have the horse in a yard.


There's only one of nine I have to worry about occasional squirrelyness and she's about 31 inches tall and 150 pounds so she's not going to do too much damage. My farrier prefers I hold them so that's what I do. He's a good one so I try to keep him happy and coming back.


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## BzooZu (Jan 12, 2014)

Here we also have to wear masks any time we are in public. If you are inside a public place you can get fined if you dont wear a mask, if you are outside the rules are a bit more lax. Our barn solves the problem by having the farrier to work outside - in front of the barn so the farrier doesnt have to wear the mask ( and they usually dont when they are working). This is usually enough of a compromise to appease both parties.
But I also think that its in your right to tell people who you dont know and are coming onto your property if you want them to wear a mask. And if the situation in your country is BAD then I see why you would.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Loosie Johnson grass and Sudan grass, both members of the Sorghum genus) along with Arrow grass when stressed produce enough prussic acid to cause cyanide poisoning. Fescue as far as I know doesn't but it has it's own issues when stressed that cause problems in livestock. Horses that are familiar with those plants or that environment won't eat them when stressed. If you know they are in your pasture then animals need kept off during frost and drought. There are other stressors as well but those are the two major. Most animals fed to adequate forage and nutrient levels will not eat those unless that is all that is available. Johnson and Sudan as well as hybrids of those can be used and are used to improve pasture but you have to know how to graze them. They are safe much of the time. 



In miming it would effect water sources that when exposed to sunlight breaks down rapidly. not to say the new chem combinations formed couldn't be toxic but they are generally less so and it would be obvious as wildlife in the area would be found dead in the area.


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

JCnGrace said:


> Asthmatic here so high risk category. I have a hard enough time breathing through the masks inside an air conditioned store, I couldn't handle it out in the heat and humidity while doing physical labor.


A farmer's red hankie also works as a mask but still allows air to circulate up under it. Just a thought.

I have finally figured out it is a good idea to keep one in my purse because I am continually getting to the door of a store before realizing I forgot the mask back in the car. Plus the hankie is useful in case of the nose thing that seemed to have developed with advancing years. Now if I was really with it I would keep an extra mask in my purse. Then I could pull it off when done shopping and leave IT in the car along with its friends!


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## americanwarmblood (Aug 20, 2020)

*grass poisoning*



loosie said:


> Cyanide poisoning eh?? Old gold country by any chance?? Worked on a place animals started getting sick & turned out to be an old gold mine upstream & they used cyanide to treat the gold somehow.
> And good for you to give it a go - yeah, nothing to say you even have to do a full horse in one fell swoop if you're not up to it, and also, if you get them up to scratch, you can just keep them maintained with short, easy, frequent trimming, instead of waiting till it's a big job - I know an older lady who does her own 2 horses & she does a foot a day, 2 on Saturdays!
> I do recommend that, even as you mentioned, you've done it before, you might have been skilled at it, that you learn all you can about hoof form & function, balance, etc, so you can do the best job possible, understand all factors. If you learned a while back, there are a number of ideas/factors which are sort of 'outdated' these days. You're also welcome to pick my brains, and there are other experienced trimmers here too. You can also start a thread in the hoofcare section & post pics of your horse's feets - check out the link in my signature line for what angles etc are needed.



Grass poisoning up North or out East is rare. In the SW it is all too common. During a drought some grass species become poisonous to keep herbivores at bay. It is natures way of striking a balance when there is not enough water. Since we are in the desert, I have to feed hay year round. The grass hay comes from the irrigated fields near the Rio Grande. 

When we first came down here, I had no idea they were in the worst drought for over 50 years. Three vets and 2 farriers couldn't figure it out. They called it severe laminitis due to EMS. Blood tests after blood tests showed all kinds of weird things. You could see the coffin bones starting to curl on the x-rays. It was some scary stuff. The wife and I fiqured it out though and we fixed them, gradually. They are as good as they ever were!

Thanks for the info and links. I will definitely have some questions for those in the know.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

It's the same thing here with Johnson grass, or so I've been warned. It's fine when it's wet but potentially poisonous when stressed by drought, which pretty much means all of August and possibly part of July and September as well. Nothing to do with mining -- it's just the way the grass is.


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

I haven't read every reply, but a few thoughts here:

It's not really "personal choice" to not wear a mask in the presence of someone else who requests that you do. Because wearing a mask doesn't do much to protect you from others. But it does protect others from you. So OP just putting one on isn't going to do much for her if the farrier is carrying it, but it would help protect the farrier if she had it.

There may have been some ways to meet in the middle, though. (It would have also saved you both a lot of frustration if you'd covered the topic on the phone first, but I'm sure you've already had that thought.)

Transmission rates in outdoor spaces are being found to be very very low, even without full six foot distancing. Holding the horses in an outdoor space would have been a pretty safe alternative. Using a long lead would help if the horses don't need to be micromanaged.

We haven't been wearing masks at our barn because it always has every door open during daylight hours and is very well ventilated. It's also not a busy barn, so that helps. I am very pro-mask though, in normal indoor settings. If surgeons can be on their feet in them performing intense 12 hour surgeries, and construction workers can do intense physical jobs in the heat in them, it's not a great imposition for people to put one on long enough to, say, enter a store. And they ARE effective. I own a retail business and we do require them inside our store. They are actually now mandatory in all public indoor spaces in my region. For those who can't or won't wear one, pretty well every business now has curbside pick-up or delivery options, so there's no need to insist on entering a business without one.

Anyhooo, I'm starting to veer off topic. But in short, given the current data, I personally would have felt safe enough if he agreed to do the trims outdoors.


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## americanwarmblood (Aug 20, 2020)

Never occurred to me that he would balk at wearing a mask so we didn't text him about it. Number one - it's the law here and number 2 - a mere inconvenience vs the risk of possibly spreading a deadly disease just doesn't register with us.


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

americanwarmblood said:


> Never occurred to me that he would balk at wearing a mask so we didn't text him about it. Number one - it's the law here and number 2 - a mere inconvenience vs the risk of possibly spreading a deadly disease just doesn't register with us.


I do agree and didn't mean to imply you were in the wrong in any way!


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## americanwarmblood (Aug 20, 2020)

SteadyOn said:


> I do agree and didn't mean to imply you were in the wrong in any way!



That's perfectly ok...I understand. I would rather be in Canada right now. 😁


Do you think Canada would accept New Mexico if we seceded? We have muy bueno chiles and enchanted lands! onkey:


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## bobsbigboy (May 25, 2019)

americanwarmblood said:


> Never occurred to me that he would balk at wearing a mask so we didn't text him about it. Number one - it's the law here and number 2 - a mere inconvenience vs the risk of possibly spreading a deadly disease just doesn't register with us.





It not a mere inconvenience when the farrier could go hypoxic and die right in front of you. then you would still need a new farrier. Its about HIS safety not yours at this point. If you are so scared of getting sick hire someone to hold the horse. The next time you ask a farrier to bend over and deal with your horse with a mask on realize your putting his life in danger. Same reason no one should ever be driving a car with a mask. MANY MANY deadly car accidents have been happening because of people passing out or getting light headed from hypoxia.


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## farrieremily (Jul 8, 2018)

loosie said:


> JCnGrace said:
> 
> 
> > When holding them for him I simply keep the horse between the two of us, so if he's working on the left side, I'm standing on the right.
> ...


Not to veer off topic but it’s recommended to be opposite sides on front feet so you can turn a rearing horse away from the farrier and same side for back feet so you can bring the head in and butt away if they kick or buck. 


I haven’t had any clients ask me to wear a mask. I don’t do a large number of horses anymore and otherwise stay home so I’m not as high risk as younger harder working farriers. 

It would honestly depend on the horses. A couple well behaved horses I would probably wear a mask. If they don’t stand and I have to struggle with them then no, they can wait or find someone new. 

If I had a client with poor health I would offer and go by what they say.


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

bobsbigboy said:


> It not a mere inconvenience when the farrier could go hypoxic and die right in front of you. then you would still need a new farrier. Its about HIS safety not yours at this point. If you are so scared of getting sick hire someone to hold the horse. The next time you ask a farrier to bend over and deal with your horse with a mask on realize your putting his life in danger. Same reason no one should ever be driving a car with a mask. MANY MANY deadly car accidents have been happening because of people passing out or getting light headed from hypoxia.


Well, I did some searches, and I found ONE example of a car accident where someone was wearing an N95 mask. However correlation does not equal causation. We don't know that the mask caused the crash. Though I have no idea why anyone would wear one while driving anyhow. If someone is in your car, they should be in your "bubble" anyhow because that's too confined to share a space, even with masks on. In general, though, the odds of a healthy person actually passing out just from wearing a mask, even with exertion, are very low.

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/no-face-masks-cant-cause-co2-poisoning


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## americanwarmblood (Aug 20, 2020)

bobsbigboy said:


> It not a mere inconvenience when the farrier could go hypoxic and die right in front of you. then you would still need a new farrier. Its about HIS safety not yours at this point. If you are so scared of getting sick hire someone to hold the horse. The next time you ask a farrier to bend over and deal with your horse with a mask on realize your putting his life in danger. Same reason no one should ever be driving a car with a mask. MANY MANY deadly car accidents have been happening because of people passing out or getting light headed from hypoxia.



Are you talking about a mask or a bong? :lol::lol:


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

bobsbigboy said:


> It not a mere inconvenience when the farrier could go hypoxic and die right in front of you.


:rofl::rofl: Very good! I'll have to remember that one. There are some very silly ideas floating around it seems & I wondered if you were serious there for a minute until I looked up hypoxia.


> realize your putting his life in danger. Same reason no one should ever be drivng a car with a mask. MANY MANY deadly car accidents


Yeah and there's a huge worldwide conspiracy that's been hiding deaths for many decades - ever wondered why surgeons in hospitals get paid so much?? It's compensation & hush money to their family, because they never last more than a couple of years having to wear those highly dangerous masks...


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

Clearly this doctor is taking his life into his hands as he puts on SIX masks and goes comatose from hypoxia... except that, oh wait, his oxygen levels never drop by more than a percentage and he has no problem at all breathing.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

There are also some very good drugs these days for hypoxia - but if you're caught short, yeah, a bong should do the trick!


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

SteadyOn said:


> Because wearing a mask doesn't do much to protect you from others. But it does protect others from you. So OP just putting one on isn't going to do much for her if the farrier is carrying it, but it would help protect the farrier if she had it.


BTW OP, sorry for misgendering you here! Profile pics weren't loading for me, and I am just so used to horse people being women. Haha, my bad!!


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## americanwarmblood (Aug 20, 2020)

*AMERICAN FARRIERS JOURNAL*

Dr. Helen Aceto, B.Sc., Ph.D., V.M.D, Associate Professor of Veterinary Epidemiology, Director of Biosecurity at the University of Pennsylvania School of Veterinary Medicine (Penn Vet)’s New Bolton Center says, “It is critical that the farrier and anyone else present during an appointment wear masks – even those who do not presently have symptoms associated with COVID-19. Even alternative options, such as textile/cloth masks, are better than nothing and do cut down on the transmission of aerosols.” While a 6-foot social distance reduces risk significantly if you're just passing someone in the street, the risk of exposure increases with prolonged contact. According to Aceto, “Even though larger heavier droplets (> .0002 inches or 5 microns in size) fall to the ground within 6 feet of an infected person, it is now known that smaller droplets can travel much further; if propelled by a vigorous sneeze or cough, smaller droplets can travel far as 30 feet. Additionally, breathing and speaking creates aerosols that can spread the virus.”

Wear masks. The farrier, assistants, and everyone with whom they come in contact should wear masks. Carry new masks in separate paper bags to supply to clients that might not have one.

*During the Appointment*
Personal Protective Equipment (PPE)

Wear a mask that covers both your nose and mouth. Try not to touch or adjust the mask once it is in place. Change masks between facilities. Textile/cloth face coverings should:
fit snugly but comfortably against the side of the face be secured with ties or ear loops include multiple layers of fabric allow for breathing without restriction be able to be laundered and machine-dried without damage or change to shape

Consider wearing gloves while handling horses and equipment in high risk facilities. Change gloves between each horse. Do not touch your face/mouth/nose/eyes.

Wash hands continuously for 20 seconds and/or use hand sanitizer frequently 

Consider wearing coveralls over clothes so that coveralls can be removed before leaving the premises and placed in a bag for laundering. If not possible, consider changing clothes between facilities.

*While working*
Try to maintain at least a 6-foot distance from other people, and have the handler stand on the opposite side of the horse from the farrier (if possible).

Limit attendance to one person in the workspace in addition to the farrier. Additional people may attend on speakerphone or video call.

If the horse is to be tied, have the horse’s handler tie the horse. Avoid touching the horse’s tack. 

To avoid contamination, use your own halter/lead rope/chain/longe line if you catch the horse. 

Avoid touching anything besides your own tools. Avoid gate latches, door latches, shovels, brooms, wheelbarrows, etc. if possible.

Wash hands continuously for 20 seconds or use hand sanitizer frequently while at the facility


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

There is no settled science on the effectiveness of masks. I could find 20 studies or a hundred "experts" saying they are the greatest thing since sliced cheese, and and equal number saying they are not worth squat all. Same with transmission rates from asymptomatic people. Some say it happens all the time. Others say it is very rare. FWIW, I know three married couples where one person caught the virus and the other did not - while living together as a married couple.

But in New Mexico, the state is requiring everyone to wear a mask outside. Including exercising. So if my 4 mile run today took place in New Mexico instead of Arizona, I'd be required to be jogging all alone, through the desert...in a mask! I won't set foot in New Mexico while their order exists.

There may be some legal wiggle room for the farrier. I haven't read every word in the multi-page order. Or maybe not. It looks like an uncommonly strict order. The farrier may have a legal obligation to wear a mask. It might make an interesting court case...."The Case of the Recalcitrant Farrier"! Perry Mason, you have a call on line 1! Regardless of what is in an order, there may be case law or other conflicting laws that create wiggle room.

If I asked my farrier to abide by the ideas posted above, I'd need a new farrier immediately. Yeah...change clothes between each customer...wear gloves, and change them between horses....right. I think in Arizona I'll go on standing on the same side of the horse as my farrier, cracking jokes and discussing horses. I'll wash my hands afterwards and take my chances. A good farrier is hard to find, at least where I live! 

BUT! Your horses, your rules. Regardless of what the state says, one retains the right to insist on any safety rule one believes is needed - or part company.


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## ksbowman (Oct 30, 2018)

@bsms I shook hands with my farrier two weeks ago and neither of us wore masks. I don't wear a mask when working on the farm and neither does anyone else on our farm here in Kansas


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

BTW, to make sense of what I wrote, when I originally read big bob's post I found it so funny because whatever I googled(must have spelled wrong or something) said it was a mental anxiety disorder that caused panic attacks... which I thought was quite accurate for so many ideas I'd heard from 'anti-maskers'. Also why I thought it would be effectively treated with a bong!


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

loosie said:


> BTW, to make sense of what I wrote, when I originally read big bob's post I found it so funny because whatever I googled(must have spelled wrong or something) said it was a mental anxiety disorder that caused panic attacks... which I thought was quite accurate for so many ideas I'd heard from 'anti-maskers'. Also why I thought it would be effectively treated with a bong!


Bongs do tend to require one to take a deep breath. ;-)


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

^Do they just? I'm sure I wouldn't know...(where's the halo emoji??) ... Or maybe remember...


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Aha, didn't misspell ..


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

bsms said:


> FWIW, I know three married couples where one person caught the virus and the other did not - while living together as a married couple.


I think that's a really interesting thing. And it's interesting to me, too, that you can look at it in the sense of "See, some people get covid and some people don't, and we don't know why, so I won't worry about it," or "See, some people get covid and some people don't, and we don't know why, so I should take all the precautions I can to keep from getting or spreading it."


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## americanwarmblood (Aug 20, 2020)

ACinATX said:


> I think that's a really interesting thing. And it's interesting to me, too, that you can look at it in the sense of "See, some people get covid and some people don't, and we don't know why, so I won't worry about it," or "See, some people get covid and some people don't, and we don't know why, so I should take all the precautions I can to keep from getting or spreading it."



I like your post which is why I quoted it.


Covid is highly contagious and is much more deadly than any flu so far. I am at high risk of dying from it as my immune system is toast after battling a previous virus for many years. The wife had a bad case of the flu and has lifelong immune system disorders as well. RNA viruses can be very nasty having lifelong, multiple, serious complications. It is one thing to be responsible for your own health. Quite yet another to be responsible for someone else's LIFE. Anyway, just one man's humble opinion.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

I guess I’m with the line that agrees, your property your rules. I don’t see why anyone had to be rude though. 

I guess you must be much more fit than I though, because I wouldn’t be able to shoe a horse with a mask on. I do have asthma, and maybe that makes a difference, but I would walk away from you too. I personally don’t know anyone who would shoe a horse for you with a mask on in real life.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Your property, your rules. Good for you for trying to keep everyone safe. He could have been sensitive enough and respectful enough to wear a mask on you property even if he refuses to do so elsewhere.


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## Sherian (Aug 28, 2012)

Your property, your rules. But full time farrier here, and I doubt I could make it through a trim comfortably with a mask on, never mind repeat it for the whole day's work especially with our current heat and humidity. My clients that are concerned have been having the horses tied up waiting for me, they hang out at a safe distance while I work, than I throw the horses back out in turnout, they pay by etransfer. Simple to organise and both parties needs are addressed.


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## Jolly101 (Jul 2, 2018)

I try not to post on threads like these as I find this topic can get quite heated, but some of the ideas floating around about masks and COVID are honestly quite funny... No, masks will not give you hypoxia, if that were the case, then surgeons and doctors would not be able to wear them for several hours in a row. Hypoxia kicks in at 90% or less O2 saturation. It takes 5-10 minutes for that to affect someone quite seriously. People need to read about what they preach. COVID does not have a lower death rate (0.04%) than the flu (1.28%). To calculate death rate, you need to divide the number of deaths by the number of people affected + deaths, which ends up to around 4-5%... approximately 3-4% more than the flu. Don't take facts directly from social media or the news as both sources can be biased and not always supported by research. Early on the news preached that masks were not needed, but that was because of the mask shortage - again bias. Read about these things from reputable sources and if you don't understand the science behind it, then sorry, but you really shouldn't be spreading misinformation on the internet (not speaking directly to any of you here, but I've seen so much misinformation going around lately). If you are interested in the actual facts, then talk to knowledgeable health professionals or learn yourself about how these things work and read the actual studies. 

Now, for OP. I think your farrier did overreact, but I also think you should have communicated with them before having them drive down to do your horses. I don't believe it is unreasonable to ask people coming to your property to wear a mask to protect yourself. Surgical masks can be annoying to wear for sure, but it is not impossible to wear them for strenuous work. My farrier has been wearing one and so has my vet even when hand floating the horse's teeth. That being said, a farriers work is not easy and I do think there should be some compromise where the farrier could be left alone to do the horses and he doesn't need to wear a mask. Unless you are wearing a N95, the mask will only protect others from you. It takes two people wearing a mask for the most protection, but that protection is still not 100%. The mask slows down particles so that they travel less far....social distancing is still needed.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

While I haven't been doing regular farriery for a while so can't talk of having to do so for a whole working day, and while it is winter here and it would indeed be more difficult in the heat, I thought I'd wear a mask while trimming 3 of mine in a row.yesterday, just for the sake of the exercise. I've got unfit lately too so it has become harder work.

I can report that it was indeed unpleasant - no surprise there as I hate wearing it while shopping or walking even. I also couldn't whistle, which I usually do while I work(no comments about dwarves welcome!) But then, got unfit so maybe that wouldn't be likely lately anyway... But I really did not find it to be any more significant discomfort or make the job more difficult.

I think so far as farriery goes, working in the heat, under the pump for hours at a time, and if you're hot shoeing, working a forge, those things may make mask wearing significantly less comfortable, but can't see what the big deal is wearing one for a few trims when it's not too hot. 

Husband has to wear a mask about 11hrs a day at the mo for work & travel to n from. He is an industrial tradie & currently working on a city highrise so lots & lots of stairs, as well as carrying tools & equipment up & down. He's a foreman, so gets around, not like he stays in one spot working for the day. He estimates he probably does his '10,000 steps' at least twice, often 3 times daily. He is also asthmatic. He has found wearing a mask annoying & quite uncomfortable for his ears. So I made him a hook type of affair so the mask straps can be fastened behind the head rather than but his ears. Now he is coping fine.


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## americanwarmblood (Aug 20, 2020)

Jolly101 said:


> I try not to post on threads like these as I find this topic can get quite heated, but some of the ideas floating around about masks and COVID are honestly quite funny... No, masks will not give you hypoxia, if that were the case, then surgeons and doctors would not be able to wear them for several hours in a row. Hypoxia kicks in at 90% or less O2 saturation. It takes 5-10 minutes for that to affect someone quite seriously. People need to read about what they preach. COVID does not have a lower death rate (0.04%) than the flu (1.28%). To calculate death rate, you need to divide the number of deaths by the number of people affected + deaths, which ends up to around 4-5%... approximately 3-4% more than the flu. Don't take facts directly from social media or the news as both sources can be biased and not always supported by research. Early on the news preached that masks were not needed, but that was because of the mask shortage - again bias. Read about these things from reputable sources and if you don't understand the science behind it, then sorry, but you really shouldn't be spreading misinformation on the internet (not speaking directly to any of you here, but I've seen so much misinformation going around lately). If you are interested in the actual facts, then talk to knowledgeable health professionals or learn yourself about how these things work and read the actual studies.
> 
> Now, for OP. I think your farrier did overreact, but I also think you should have communicated with them before having them drive down to do your horses. I don't believe it is unreasonable to ask people coming to your property to wear a mask to protect yourself. Surgical masks can be annoying to wear for sure, but it is not impossible to wear them for strenuous work. My farrier has been wearing one and so has my vet even when hand floating the horse's teeth. That being said, a farriers work is not easy and I do think there should be some compromise where the farrier could be left alone to do the horses and he doesn't need to wear a mask. Unless you are wearing a N95, the mask will only protect others from you. It takes two people wearing a mask for the most protection, but that protection is still not 100%. The mask slows down particles so that they travel less far....social distancing is still needed.


 I am open to compromise, there wasn't any. It wasn't his first time out. He has been our farrier for almost 3 years. I don't see why we should have asked him before he came out. That makes no sense to me since farriers should be wearing masks anyway. I am the client. It should have been HIM calling US to say he wouldn't wear a mask. It is the law here that anyone in public wear masks. It is a shame that there needs to be a law to enforce simple, common sense.


What this pandemic has shown me is that there are only a few people that simply refuse to adapt their lifestyle to take on the responsibility. If it is outside of their comfort zone they won't go there. They give any and every excuse not to modify their own behavior. That behavior entails each individual to do their part to reduce the spread of this horrible disease. And unfortunately, it only takes those few to cause an outbreak. The choice is simple. Either come together or perish. This country has chosen to perish. I don't intend to be one of them.


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## americanwarmblood (Aug 20, 2020)

loosie said:


> While I haven't been doing regular farriery for a while so can't talk of having to do so for a whole working day, and while it is winter here and it would indeed be more difficult in the heat, I thought I'd wear a mask while trimming 3 of mine in a row.yesterday, just for the sake of the exercise. I've got unfit lately too so it has become harder work.
> 
> I can report that it was indeed unpleasant - no surprise there as I hate wearing it while shopping or walking even. I also couldn't whistle, which I usually do while I work(no comments about dwarves welcome!) But then, got unfit so maybe that wouldn't be likely lately anyway... But I really did not find it to be any more significant discomfort or make the job more difficult.
> 
> ...



That post is brilliant...bravo. 


I wear a mask most of the time I am outside. It is very dusty here in the desert. The hay is very dusty also. Whenever I toss bales, I wear a mask. Our stalls have dirt floors, actually adobe clay, so I must wear a mask to pick out the stalls. It is 100 degrees here once the sun comes up with not much of a breeze. Sometimes I sweat so much that I have to change masks. When I get out of breath, I simply pull the mask down and rest for a few minutes.


I would think that trimming with a mask isn't easy and maybe at times a bit difficult. I suppose overall it may take more time to trim while wearing a mask. If so, a farrier may not be able to do as many horses in a given day. I certainly wouldn't mind giving an extra 5 dollars or so per horse to make up the difference. I usually give a tip for coming out this far anyway. I certainly want to do my part to get through this pandemic.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

americanwarmblood said:


> ...It is a shame that there needs to be a law to enforce simple, common sense...


My idea of common sense is that surgical masks were worn to stop blood and snot. That masks which don't seal on the face don't stop squat from getting out. And that if masks stop the virus from going OUT of the mask, then they should stop them from going INTO the mask. If so....then wear your mask if you wish and enjoy your protection. Wear goggles if you wish. Wear gloves if you wish. But there is no conclusive evidence masks help at all.

And when a state says I need to wear a mask to go jogging by myself in the desert, common sense has left the room.

The problem with "common sense" is that everyone defines it differently. So I'll respect those who have different ideas than mine, provided they do not require I obey them.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

americanwarmblood said:


> farriers should be wearing masks anyway. I am the client. It should have been HIM calling US to say he wouldn't wear a mask. It is the law here that anyone in public wear masks.


Yeah, in that case, I agree - you shouldn't have needed to apologise or compensate him for time wasted coming out to you, if it's law where you are. Sounds like he was just being bloodyminded.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

bsms said:


> My idea of common sense is that surgical masks were worn to stop blood and snot. That masks which don't seal on the face don't stop squat from getting out. .... But there is no conclusive evidence masks help at all.


My idea about 'common sense' is that it... ain't all that common, which is a large reason why laws are made. Yes, masks are about protecting others from blood & snot particles(well, snot particles, when talking Covid). Yes, the looser a mask, the more can get around it. But far from 'squat' even if loose, as, when you sneeze or cough or shout, your snot/spit particles tend to come straight out & into the mask, they don't hit the barrier then jump off & go round corners! As for 'conclusive evidence', I haven't looked into that specifically, but I understood there was indeed a fair bit of evidence to show it is indeed helpful. But even if it's not 'conclusive proof', I don't personally feel the need to risk it & wait for 'proof' before taking the precaution.



> And when a state says I need to wear a mask to go jogging by myself in the desert, common sense has left the room. ... provided they do not require I obey them.


I agree fully that there are times - like horse riding in the bush around here for eg. - that wearing a mask is of course totally & utterly pointless. But a)given the lack of common sense of a lot of people b)given the bloody mindedness & excuse making of a lot of people and c)given the added difficulty of policing laws which have so many 'ifs, buts, maybes' I can understand why they make 'blanket' type laws like that.

But at the end of the day, all of this debate about effectiveness of masks, how hard or otherwise farriery might be with a mask... is beside the point of this thread. All that really matters is that OP asked the farrier to conform to the law, on his property, with his horses, and the farrier (perhaps rudely too, by the sounds) refused to do so.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

I really don't have an issue with wearing a mask in a building in public or anywhere where i cannot stay away from people. But a lot of times it's overdone. Like when I see people driving in their car alone, or walking their dog down the street alone, or jogging alone. I can't help but think, why? I'm also standing there with this "?" floating above my head when I watch peoples behaviors that do absolutely nothing to prevent any kind of virus from getting around, yet, they have their mask.

I personally would not have wanted to lose a farrier that I like to this. I would have tied the horses up and said let me know when you are done, walk away 50 feet and watch. 

I also think that the O/P has every right to do what he wants on his property so it is what it is.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

The farrier gets to make his own choices, to include losing customers. Or risk running afoul of the law. The OP has the right to set any conditions the OP believes are needed, and in NM, some of those are backed up by law.

But "common sense laws" means nothing more than "laws I agree with". In Arizona, a "common sense law" allows us to carry guns concealed without a license. I gather many consider than hideous - but it IS "common sense" in Arizona. 

"_But far from 'squat' even if loose, as, when you sneeze or cough or shout, your snot/spit particles tend to come straight out & into the mask, they don't hit the barrier then jump off & go round corners!_" - @loosie

Nope. But the larger particles of snot and spit drop and hit the ground. The WHO says within 1 meter. The USA uses 6 feet. Others say it may be further. Hence even liberal Pima County AZ says use a mask in places "social distancing" cannot be maintained. So when I walk across a parking lot, I drop my mask. In a crowded store, I wear one even if I disagree with its effectiveness.

Also: The snot and spit are part of symptoms. If someone is asymptomatic, they rarely transmit the disease. A recent study measured it at 0.3%:

"_The secondary attack rate increased with the severity of index cases, from 0.3% (CI, 0.0 to 1.0%) for asymptomatic to 3.3% (CI, 1.8% to 4.8%) for mild, 5.6% (CI, 4.4% to 6.8%) for moderate, and 6.2% (CI, 3.2% to 9.1%) for severe or critical cases. Index cases with expectoration were associated with higher risk for secondary infection (13.6% vs. 3.0% for index cases without expectoration; OR, 4.81 [CI, 3.35 to 6.93])._"

Contact Settings and Risk for Transmission in 3410 Close Contacts of Patients With COVID-19 in Guangzhou, China

This ties in to "common sense" measures, since someone with a 0.3% chance of transmitting a disease might reasonable reject measures that they would take if they were transmitting it at 13%!

My point it not to convince anyone. Not on the efficacy of wearing masks. I merely am pointing out reasonable people, using "common sense" and with some background in science, can disagree with each other. These discussions should not be cast as one of "common sense" versus stupidity and ill-intent. People of good will and intelligence can disagree with each other.

PS: My farrier and I have a standing agreement. If I can't be there, he does my horses without me. Then picks up the check on my front porch. Maybe THAT would have been an acceptable compromise in this situation.


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

The farrier was just here a few days ago. He got out of his truck without a mask and I wasn't wearing one either. Here we are not mandated to wear one outside, thankfully. Had he had a mask on I would have done the same out of courtesy. Shoes reset, handed him his fee, offered him warm water, hand soap and a towel, made another appointment, chatted a minute and off he went.

If a farrier prefers not to mask up, and you really like the farrier, just offer to tie the horse and step back. A whole lot of this sounds like needless kerfuffle. And if the mask is a necessity in your barn then make that known WHEN the appointment is scheduled not after he makes the trip. Just my humble 2 cents worth.


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## americanwarmblood (Aug 20, 2020)

I wouldn't mind tying up the mustang, but the farrier doesn't want to deal with him on his own. He stands well, just that he occasionally needs to be reminded that he is "caught" and must submit. All it takes is to hold onto the halter rope. We have had him since he was a foal and he is just a big puppy dog. Ol' Rip our senior would tie up fine but she falls asleep and tends to lean, which I don't think would be a problem. As far as the dressage horses are concerned, there is no way I would even consider tying them up. I know what they need to keep balance and I fully expect to direct the farrier. I also expect to see any potential injuries or issues he uncovers to come up with viable solutions. Any "event horse" farrier worth their salt expects to receive direct input from the trainer/owner so that "real time" decisions can be made. I also expect the farrier to implement proper health/safety protocols. With this pandemic, wearing a mask is standard protocol to help protect the trainer/owner or handler. The needs are no different at show barns, race tracks or even the movie sets. Here in New Mexico the film industry is starting up again. On the movie sets, not only must the farriers wear masks, they must also be tested. Hiring a farrier is a business arrangement. I don't want to let an employee go if they no longer live up to my expectations. Yes, there is an impact (albeit small in my case) to going out and getting another farrier. Wearing a mask is so trivial in the scheme of things, that it shouldn't be an issue.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

americanwarmblood said:


> Here in New Mexico the film industry is starting up again.


Just had a picture of all these films & TV shows made late this year, with the cast all in masks. Imagine if they made a new Superman... flying along with his matching red & blue mask. Batman would look like he was wearing a burqa... :ROFL:


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

loosie said:


> Just had a picture of all these films & TV shows made late this year, with the cast all in masks. Imagine if they made a new Superman... flying along with his matching red & blue mask. Batman would look like he was wearing a burqa... :ROFL:


They had a guy on the radio the other day talking about making a move in New Mexico. Apparently it's a western. He's like, "They were all wearing bandanas anyways back then so it's no big deal."


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## americanwarmblood (Aug 20, 2020)

ACinATX said:


> They had a guy on the radio the other day talking about making a move in New Mexico. Apparently it's a western. He's like, "They were all wearing bandanas anyways back then so it's no big deal."



We still do....get caught in a haboob without one and you could very well choke to death. The horses need (want) to be in the barn. The wind drinkers can close off their nostrils and breathe but they still want to be in the barn.


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## Nubs (Jul 25, 2019)

*political*

I physically cannot wear a mask. Two minutes of just standing there, in air conditioning, will make me physically sick.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

> I am the client. It should have been HIM calling US to say he wouldn't wear a mask.


I disagree. 
He has been to your place for the last three years and even in the last three months yet the mask issue hasn't been discussed before this visit when the altercation occurred?
Obviously it was not going to be an issue three years ago but three months ago was in June when most of the US had been shut down.



> Hiring a farrier is a business arrangement. I don't want to let an employee go if they no longer live up to my expectations. Yes, there is an impact (albeit small in my case) to going out and getting another farrier. Wearing a mask is so trivial in the scheme of things, that it shouldn't be an issue.


I'm no accountant but it seems hiring a farrier is a business arrangement, he is not your employee unless you are sending him a 1099 for contract labor at the end of year or he fills out a W2 before you put him on payroll.

He has the right to deny you service as he sees fit. Just as you can ask him to leave your private property for not wearing a mask while preforming the service you're paying for.
Obviously he isn't hungry enough for your money if he had been hard to get out to do your horses as you mentioned and leaves despite travel expenses and time after refusing to wear a mask. 
Good and excellent farriers can pick and choose their clients as needed and shed the ones that are a pain whether it be the horses or owners.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

americanwarmblood said:


> ...As far as the dressage horses are concerned, there is no way I would even consider tying them up. I know what they need to keep balance and I fully expect to direct the farrier. I also expect to see any potential injuries or issues he uncovers to come up with viable solutions....


Dressage horses have balance issues? I'm pretty sure most farriers know how to work a hoof without throwing the horse off balance. If not, I'd fire the farrier for that alone.

I get a good look at my horses' feet when I pick them. If need be, I could take a picture and text it to my farrier so he could be prepared, and he could do the same if he found something of concern when I wasn't there.

Flip side: I have a mask I bought on Amazon for use in stores. It is slightly thicker than cheesecloth. It meets the legal requirement while not affecting my breathing. It would be just about perfect for a state where face masks are required to walk outside. 

Seems like a mutually acceptable compromise could be made. If it wasn't, then maybe the need to find a new farrier will be a blessing in disguise.


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## americanwarmblood (Aug 20, 2020)

*to each his or her own*

The wife just hired a farrier and he doesn't wear a mask.....at home anyway....That would be me!

She had asked the vet who he recommends, however both wouldn't even bother to respond. Another farrier had retired, but his protege was just too busy to take on another client. One person would come down just for one trim, but he sings in a honky tonk every night and won't wear a mask when trimming.

I used to trim my own when I was young, before college. I been been in online "farrier school" since I posted this. Bought my tools and am ready to rock n' roll. I trimmed the senior this morning and it wasn't so bad. Just need some time to get used to using the tools and learning the positions. It will take me months to get the dressage horses back into collection from this debacle anyway. The wife's horse leads with her left, my horse leads with her right, so I will have plenty of time to learn how to "tune" their hooves. Thanks all for your support. It is trying times we live in these days.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

americanwarmblood said:


> The wife just hired a farrier and he doesn't wear a mask.....at home anyway....That would be me!
> 
> She had asked the vet who he recommends, however both wouldn't even bother to respond. Another farrier had retired, but his protege was just too busy to take on another client. One person would come down just for one trim, but he sings in a honky tonk every night and won't wear a mask when trimming.
> 
> I used to trim my own when I was young, before college. I been been in online "farrier school" since I posted this. Bought my tools and am ready to rock n' roll. I trimmed the senior this morning and it wasn't so bad. Just need some time to get used to using the tools and learning the positions. It will take me months to get the dressage horses back into collection from this debacle anyway. The wife's horse leads with her left, my horse leads with her right, so I will have plenty of time to learn how to "tune" their hooves. Thanks all for your support. It is trying times we live in these days.



I trim my own horses as well. It's a little bit hard physically, but at this point, I think any farrier I would hire would be a disappointment, because I know just enough to critique their work and likely not be happy with it! Sometimes I long for the days of just hiring a farrier and not worrying about hooves (ignorance is bliss, but at this point, I don't think I can go back to not critiquing hooves), but I love not being reliant on a farrier. I do not worrying their feet are too long until I can get the farrier out because if I think they are getting long I can just trim them. :smile: I don't have to worry about lost shoes because I keep mine barefoot and just boot in the rocks as needed, so I am never waiting to have lost shoes put back on like other folks. If I want to let them go longer in the winter I can. If I need to keep them short and booted in the summer I can. I am a total free agent! Of course the downside is getting out there and sweating under the horse, and second guessing every trim you make (because I worry about everything). But Rome wasn't built in a day, and if I want to do half a horse today and the other half tomorrow, that is perfectly acceptable. 

Best of luck! :biggrin:


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## americanwarmblood (Aug 20, 2020)

*positive encouragement*



trailhorserider said:


> I trim my own horses as well. It's a little bit hard physically, but at this point, I think any farrier I would hire would be a disappointment, because I know just enough to critique their work and likely not be happy with it! Sometimes I long for the days of just hiring a farrier and not worrying about hooves (ignorance is bliss, but at this point, I don't think I can go back to not critiquing hooves), but I love not being reliant on a farrier. I do not worrying their feet are too long until I can get the farrier out because if I think they are getting long I can just trim them. :smile: I don't have to worry about lost shoes because I keep mine barefoot and just boot in the rocks as needed, so I am never waiting to have lost shoes put back on like other folks. If I want to let them go longer in the winter I can. If I need to keep them short and booted in the summer I can. I am a total free agent! Of course the downside is getting out there and sweating under the horse, and second guessing every trim you make (because I worry about everything). But Rome wasn't built in a day, and if I want to do half a horse today and the other half tomorrow, that is perfectly acceptable.
> 
> Best of luck! :biggrin:


Thank you for the encouragement! I can see many advantages to DIY trimming. Doing it on your own time is a big plus.

I have had accredited and highly experienced farriers make some very basic and dangerous mistakes. One quicked a front hoof on a trim so bad there was blood on the floor. Another chopped a mare's toes off to try and stand her up when he should have just put her heels back. Another one made a square box out of one of the front feet and the horse was so lame he couldn't even walk. A mare put me flat on my back after a farrier nail quicked her. Yet another joker who didn't believe in a rasp. The list goes on but those events easily come to mind.

I know I won't be making those mistakes. I believe that being meticulous is a good trait to have when trimming a working horse. There is just not much room for error. I am rather conservative in my approach. The way I see it, I can always take more off, but I can't put it back on.


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