# Pulley rein for bolting horse



## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

I see there are several threads on stopping a horse that is bolting for the barn or just out of control. I advocate the emergency one rein stop most of the time. Many times you don't have the space or the balance needed to do this maneuver. 
I saw this video several months ago and started practicing it with my horse. Its a fabulous tool to have in your horse toolbox, so I'm posting the video again. 
It doesn't start until about 3:20 into the vid so be patient


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

This video has been posted before. What it is trying to say is how to gain more leverage for the weak rider. The same thing can be accomplished with a simple cur bit. A weak rider with a snaffle can have a problem stopping a horse, just like the older lady that owns that horse.
Put a simple tom thumb curb bit and you instantly have the extra leverage without resorting to a one rein type stop.
People are so worried about hurting the horse's mouth with a curb and they actually have to use the snaffle much more aggressively to gain control where a simple curb used gentley would actually allow them to have more control and at the same time use thier hands much more gently.

Those reining horses we all admire and do everything so effortless all have had hard lessons with curbs to produce the light animals they became.

You do not get a soft horse by being soft all the time.
Do yourself and the horse a favor and use a curb


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Thanks for posting I enjoyed the info on the video


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

> Do yourself and the horse a favor and use a curb


I do use a curb bit. I re-posted the video because after seeing it here on the forum, I have been practicing it. I found it a very good maneuver.


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## tealamutt (Aug 21, 2009)

Rio's Dad- I will not put a harsher bit in my horse's mouth and why? Because I am learning to ride and don't have the hands or the finesse to ride with it. Harsh bits are for experienced riders with skills necessary to avoid banging the crap out of their horse's mouths not for those of us who don't have the ability to use the bit when it is needed and ignore it when it is not.

And I don't think being inexperienced is a crime- the only way to get better and experienced is to ride. You can't learn it all in a day. That being said, I had an experience last week where I was **** sure glad I had practiced a one rein stop- I lost a stirrup while cantering and the stirrup banging against my horse's side spooked him and he ran (not bolted exactly but I was definitely not in control) my instructor yelled "one rein stop" as I was clearly kind of scared, and having practiced it I pulled him right up and we went on happily with the rest of the lesson.

I think you DO have a point but there is not one rider with one level of experience out there. For us beginners who have no business "bitting up" this tool is a good one to have on hand for experiences like I described.


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## Gillian (Aug 2, 2008)

I liked that video. :] My horse likes to have the last word, and can occasionally turn into a bit of a bully undersaddle. The thing he'll most commonly do when he gets tired of something we're doing or wants to avoid working, is fling his head up in the air, almost invert his neck and ignore every single aid. When he gets like that there is NOTHING that will stop him but a one rein stop. He's getting better and better and I see this behavior less and less but he does still have it in his "i don't wanna work" toolbelt and will try to take advantage of you with it. I actually had to use this in my lesson yesterday when Zeus thought he knew the pattern better than me and tanked off in anticipation of the upward transition into the canter. I do exhaust all other aids and methods before doing this though, but sometimes you really just need to shut him down or he'll walk all over you.

Good informative video.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

It's an interesting video. The only problem I see (I may be wrong though), what if the horse has a tendency to rear? It looks like this maneuver will encourage the rear on horse (especially if the horse is overexcited).


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

kitten_Val said:


> It's an interesting video. The only problem I see (I may be wrong though), what if the horse has a tendency to rear? It looks like this maneuver will encourage the rear on horse (especially if the horse is overexcited).


I think this is something you would do on a bolting horse. I've never seen a horse bolt and rear at the same time. I think if you don't release after the stop it could be a possibility. 
I haven't tried it at a stand still, only at a canter and gallop.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> This video has been posted before. What it is trying to say is how to gain more leverage for the weak rider. The same thing can be accomplished with a simple cur bit. A weak rider with a snaffle can have a problem stopping a horse, just like the older lady that owns that horse.
> *Put a simple tom thumb curb bit and you instantly have the extra leverage *without resorting to a one rein type stop.
> *People are so worried about hurting the horse's mouth with a curb *and they actually have to use the snaffle much more aggressively to gain control where a simple curb used gentley would actually allow them to have more control and at the same time use thier hands much more gently.
> 
> ...



Some of our disciplines don't allow the use of these bits. And, IMO, Tom Thumb bits are a terrible design. I dislike any jointed curb.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> It's an interesting video. The only problem I see (I may be wrong though), what if the horse has a tendency to rear? It looks like this maneuver will encourage the rear on horse (especially if the horse is overexcited).


In order to rear the horse has to stop so you at least won't be in a runaway.


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## vivache (Jun 14, 2009)

I have used this maneuver with varying success. I'm not sure why, but Thunder did not respond to it the same way Razz does. Razz will stop, dead in his tracks. I do the same with Thunder, he just transitions down. Nice, but not what is desired from an emergency stop. 

As for bits, Razz is ridden in an eggbutt(tom thumb while doing western events since he's picking up the neck rein), Thunder a full cheek. We currently do not have any curb bit small enough to fit Thunder(he has a teeny, odd-shaped head compared to his body). I might be able to find a tender-touch bit for him.. he's mouthy.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Vidaloco said:


> I think this is something you would do on a bolting horse.


Oh yes, you and Kevin are right, silly me.  I just didn't think about it, since Julie was doing it on not-a-bolting horse.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

That doesn't seem like a bad idea. I guess a person would get quicker with the response with more practice but it sure seems to take a long time to get set up to use that method.

And RD, I think this is one of the few times that we have disagreed. I honestly don't believe that bitting up a horse is the proper way to handle that situation. Yes, it does give you more bite, but that defeats the whole purpose of using the curb bit. The curb is supposed to be for finesse, not control by force. Many people don't have the hands (or knowledge) to properly utilize a curb. If you know how and when to use that bite that comes with it, it can make a horse more responsive, but if you don't the horse will simply get harder and harder and the same old problems that a person had with the snaffle will show up with the curb and by that time, they are 100 times harder to train out of the horse. And usually, the rider will continue to step to a harsher bit in order to keep control.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

Agreed^^


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

The thing with both the one rein stop and the pulley rein is that, if the rider practices it so much that it become second nature, it creates an instantaneous reaction that shuts down the horse's bolt, spook or whatever before it has time to get ugly. They do have to first be practiced in a controlled environment, but once they're automatic reactions, they're very effective in any situation.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

The horse is a 17.1 hand TB with attitude. It decides what speed it wants to go. The rider lacks Confidence and lunges first to work up courage to ride the uncontrolled canter???

Have many of you ever stood beside a 17.1 hand horse. It's sheer size is intimidating. 
I still don't agree that this lady should not bite up the horse more to her advantage. What are curb bits and their mechanical advantage usefull for anyway if not to give advantage to the rider???
I'll bet that 50% of the riders on this forum ride in curbs, alot of novices included.
The reining horses, that are so well trained ride in curbs much harsher then the majority of rider use and yet their horses are so well trained and they have loads of experience.

No a timid lady on a big big horse with attitude needs more then a snaffle, even adding a running martingale double the effective use of the snaffle if required.

Can you imagine that horse on a windy day, getting excited over something and deciding to run??? I would want more then a simple snaffle and I bet the mouthpiece on that snaffle would be big and thick to save the mouth

I also feel it is a mismatch of horse to rider. A non confident lady and a big big horse. You get far more enjoyment from a horse if the horse is better proportioned to the rider. The rider should also feel in total control of EVERY situation, no matter what comes up.
You should never feel fear when riding.


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## tealamutt (Aug 21, 2009)

I do agree with you on the rider mismatch- if you're afraid of a runaway or bolt on a regular basis there is a very basic problem, but let's not get carried away tacking up our horses to the hilt when it isn't generally necessary.

my horse is a big boy-16.3 and I am small 5'4", 5'5" on a good day. He is a TB with 'tude. I tried a harsher bit on him and he about blew up fighting the thing. I decided my hands are not educated enough for a harsher bit. 99.99% of the time we have no problem, but horses are horses and I do what I can to avoid disaster. Having a pulley rein stop in my tool box as well as an emergency dismount have given me control over the last .001% of the equation. No need to bang the crap out his mouth for the one day out of several hundred he might get a bit flighty on me.


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

tealamutt said:


> I do agree with you on the rider mismatch- if you're afraid of a runaway or bolt on a regular basis there is a very basic problem, but let's not get carried away tacking up our horses to the hilt when it isn't generally necessary.
> 
> my horse is a big boy-16.3 and I am small 5'4", 5'5" on a good day. He is a TB with 'tude. I tried a harsher bit on him and he about blew up fighting the thing. I decided my hands are not educated enough for a harsher bit. 99.99% of the time we have no problem, but horses are horses and I do what I can to avoid disaster.* Having a pulley rein stop in my tool box as well as an emergency dismount have given me control over the last .001% of the equation.* No need to bang the crap out his mouth for the one day out of several hundred he might get a bit flighty on me.


That's the point of the post. I didn't want a critique of the horse and rider or their suitability. 
I believe everyone should have the knowledge of what to do in emergency situations. Its not something you will do on a regular basis but something that you need to know how to do. No different than knowing how to pull a shoe or treat a wound. You don't want to wait till the emergency is on you and then stand around saying "what do I do?"


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Can we go over the steps for this pulley stop??
You are riding along and suddenly the horse bolts or is picking up speed and you can't slow him down??
You take a short grip on the left rein?? How do I do this. My normal riding length is too long so I slide my left hand down the rein. The rein is a wet noddle, it is not rigid so to slid it down the rein I must either release it and grab it shorter or I must use my other hand, my right hand to support the rein and then I can slide it down the rein for my shorter grip??
Do I have the left rein right??
Now I trap the left rein between my hand and the mane. This helps lock the rein?

Now for the right rein. I take a shorter grip?? Again how do I slide my hand along a wet noddle without grabbing by releasing and taking a quick grab for shorter handful?? I don't have a left hand to support the rein to slide it along? So somehow I get a shorter hold and hope I don't drop either rein in my attempt to get a shorter hold.
Then I pull pack with my right while the left is trapping the left rein to the neck.

Do I have this right?
I had better hope that I don't drop a rein while manuvering my hands for a better grip.
While all this is happening how far has the horse run, how scared am I all this time fiddling with the rein length?


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

tealamutt said:


> I. No need to bang the crap out his mouth for the one day out of several hundred he might get a bit flighty on me.


I beleive you are a very novice rider?? Why do you feel that anyone that rides in a curb is ""Banging the crap out of his mouth""

I see people riding with snaffles with a death grip on the reins, people taking dessage lessons. They complain about their sore arms and hands after a lesson?? I ride their horses and find them a bunch of hard mouth animals.

I also see alot of people riding in curbs with loose reins. these people ride this no contact. Which is easier on the horse?? which bit gives the rider a feeling of confidence?? People need to get over this snaffle is good curbs are bad attitude.
Again 50% of the people on here ride with curbs. Are they abussive??


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Riosdad, take into account that this is demonstrated by, and for, english riders who ride with a contact. I have been doing something similar for years on horses who get strong, I figured out myself how to increase my strength, I didn't know it had a name :]

I also do it a bit differently - I don't necessarily lodge my hand on the neck. My emergency stop is just locking one hand in the most convenient position, and then hauling *** with the other. I don't need to shorten my reins. The uneven pressure means the horse can't lean back, I always do it in a snaffle, and I haven't had a runaway in years. If it doesn't work the first time, you do it again until you get the response. I don't 'teach' it or 'practise' it - It is simply a way to magnify the little strength I have by utitlising my body and the reins in the most effective way.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

> I see people riding with snaffles with a death grip on the reins, people taking dessage lessons. I also see alot of people riding in curbs with loose reins. these people ride this no contact. Which is easier on the horse??


However, I have seen people that ride on loose reins with a snaffle and others who ride with a death grip on the curb. That makes for a much harder horse than those who keep a death grip on the snaffle. And that fact is that if a rider has hands that are bad enough to make a horse hard in the snaffle, if they bit up the horse into a curb, they are not fixing the original problem: the hands. They will have the illusion of control for a while in the curb but they will continue to ride with the death grip because even if they are told, that is a hard habit to break. Then they end up in the same boat with the horse being unresponsive to the bit because they don't have the knowledge to properly use a curb. For a person of experience that understands how to use a curb, using one to re-train a horse that is not responsive to the snaffle might be a good plan. But that is the problem, if a person has to resort to a harsher bit to control their horse, it isn't the horse's fault. It is the rider's fault and if they just keep picking harsher and harsher bits to keep control without ever fixing their hands, they are just doing more damage to the horse and making it almost impossible to ever go back to being supple on a soft bit.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> Can we go over the steps for this pulley stop??
> You are riding along and suddenly the horse bolts or is picking up speed and you can't slow him down??
> You take a short grip on the left rein?? How do I do this.
> 
> ...


Are you really not understanding or just trying to make a point? It is really quite intuitive.


BTW, you mentioned earlier that a running martingale doubles the effectiveness of a bit? If it is properly adjusted, how does it do that. I have been using them for over 40 years, properly adjusted, and the only time the horse even touches it is when the head is WAY high.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Allison Finch said:


> Are you really not understanding or just trying to make a point? It is really quite intuitive.
> 
> 
> BTW, you mentioned earlier that a running martingale doubles the effectiveness of a bit? If it is properly adjusted, how does it do that. I have been using them for over 40 years, properly adjusted, and the only time the horse even touches it is when the head is WAY high.


Yes I know the steps and it would be no problem for me but a person in a problem and with less experience might find it difficult to shorten the reins and runs the risk of dropping one or both, you must release and regrip. I have a version of this where you take both reins in ONE hand and pull and clamp with the other hand on the crest of the neck. The horse throws his head up to escape but with your clamp on the crest he pulls himself down. this involves no letting go and reclamping of the rein.

As for the running martingale properly adjusted it does nothing but when you pull a horse up he will throw his head up and all you have to do is hold the reins and he pulls on himself giving you a mechanical advantage, a big advantage. 
If you ride problem horses, runaways you will find it gives you a big advantage over no martingale. 
I do try different things, buy different bits just to experiment.


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## tealamutt (Aug 21, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> I beleive you are a very novice rider?? Why do you feel that anyone that rides in a curb is ""Banging the crap out of his mouth""


I don't, I feel that **ME** riding with a curb is banging the crap out his mouth, as I stated repeatedly. I don't have the hands or the finesse for it. I would wager there are more riders out there who do not have the talent to bit up than ones who do.

I was just trying to illustrate the point of the post- this is a tool for emergencies (one of many out there). It is not the only tool of course, but it is a fantastic one for someone like me; a novice with no business riding in a harsh bit, who's horse is well suited to my ability level yet cannot be 100% relied upon to never spook and bolt (what horse can??). That's all. We agree on most everything else said, I was just trying to present the point of someone who cannot bit up without more harm than good coming of it.

And I agree with whoever said that this is better for english riders who ride with contact, there is no release, regrip, oops, release and regrip again problems. If you're riding on the buckle there is a bigger problem at hand.


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## SmoothTrails (Oct 1, 2009)

I have pulled an emergency stop similar to this, but , like Riosdad, I do it with one hand so I have the other free to grab the horn or shorten up some more if I still don't get stopped. 

If it is a horse that I know will attempt to rear when we get to the stop (I had one that would as soon as he finally stopped to prove his point) I will pull back with a longer rein and brace on the tree of my saddle instead to make him keep his head lower. It also gave me the opportunity to quickly release one and spin once we stopped if he did try to rear. I have only had a couple of horses that ever tried to run off, and those are just the ways that I learned to deal with them.


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

This was one I wish I had the first few times I took my then 3 year old out on the trails. She spooked and bolted between a row of hedge (thorned) trees and a barbed wire fence. No room for a one rein circle stop, so I just rode it out. Not before it ruined a good pair of pants and tore a few nice gashes on my leg. Another lesson...wear chaps when on a green horse :lol:


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## SmoothTrails (Oct 1, 2009)

Vidaloco said:


> This was one I wish I had the first few times I took my then 3 year old out on the trails. She spooked and bolted between a row of hedge (thorned) trees and a barbed wire fence. No room for a one rein circle stop, so I just rode it out. Not before it ruined a good pair of pants and tore a few nice gashes on my leg. Another lesson...wear chaps when on a green horse :lol:


OW! I've always had to stop mine going straight because I mostly trail ride. A one rein stop is normally impossible for me unless we happen to be at the house or just riding through the fields. 

I've always tried to keep my horses as soft-mouthed as possible, so the only time they have bolted it was no big deal...just three steps and a stop when they hit the bit. The problems I ran into always came from other people's horses or horses I had just gotten...they didn't have an understand with me that they should stop no matter what lol.


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## HooverH (May 17, 2008)

Rio and Smooth...would explain your alternatives a little more? I ride Western loose rein, so they would most likely be a better option in an emergency. I can usually rest the tail of my (split) reins on my left leg when riding.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

HooverH said:


> Rio and Smooth...would explain your alternatives a little more? I ride Western loose rein, so they would most likely be a better option in an emergency. I can usually rest the tail of my (split) reins on my left leg when riding.


 
If you ride western you are probably riding with a curb anyway so the advantage is all yours and you don't need the one rein stop.

I rode endurance and rode with bitless for 20 years and then switched to a snaffle because is weighed less then the bitless and didn't rub his nose.

Anway using a snaffle and wanting to add leverage to the stop. I usually rode with the reins in my right hand and the left was free. If I wanted to add leverage I would pull back with the one hand and then using the other hand CLAMP the two reins against the crest of the neck.
The right is pulling back and you reach forward with the free hand and take the two reins which are against the neck already and clamp hard to the crest of the neck trapping the 2 reins short and hard to the neck. The horse tried lifting it's head and actually pulls on itself since the reins are clamp t said neck.. It just adds leverage. I would never do the one rein stop either. No room where I run and I would throw a running horse off balance anyway.

I got to hand it to you ladies that ride horses that you know can overpower you. I weigh 193 or say 200 and ride horses in the 900-1000 pound range and feel I can overpower them. I can push them around in a stall or any other place and once on their back with anything from bitless to snaffle feel I can outpower them so I have no fear of them.
You ladies on the other hand ride with fear knowing if they suddenly explode they can run off with you? My hat is off to you ladies and your courage. I don't think I could ride with that fear. I am a chicken at heart:lol::lol: I want to be in control of every situation. Typical man stuff.:lol:


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> I got to hand it to you ladies that ride horses that you know can overpower you. I weigh 193 or say 200 and ride horses in the 900-1000 pound range and feel I can overpower them. I can push them around in a stall or any other place and once on their back with anything from bitless to snaffle feel I can outpower them so I have no fear of them.
> You ladies on the other hand ride with fear knowing if they suddenly explode they can run off with you? My hat is off to you ladies and your courage. I don't think I could ride with that fear. I am a chicken at heart:lol::lol: I want to be in control of every situation. Typical man stuff.:lol:


 
I am a police officer as well as a horse trainer. I, as a weak frail female, cannot wrestle a huge drunk male to the ground. I have TOOLS for that (Taser, pepper spray, asp baton.....gun).

Same with a horse. No male OR female can simply wrestle a horse down. You develop techniques as your tools. The pulley rein takes very little strength. It uses leverage instead. With that tool, I can pull a 1200 pound athlete to a grinding halt and not ever mess up my nice hairdo or scratch my fingernail polish.:twisted:


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## whitetrashwarmblood (Aug 24, 2008)

Allison Finch said:


> I can pull a 1200 pound athlete to a grinding halt and not ever mess up my nice hairdo or scratch my fingernail polish.:twisted:


:clap:


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

Allison Finch said:


> Same with a horse. No male OR female can simply wrestle a horse down. You develop techniques as your tools. The pulley rein takes very little strength. It uses leverage instead. With that tool, I can pull a 1200 pound athlete to a grinding halt and not ever mess up my nice hairdo or scratch my fingernail polish.:twisted:


I'm with Allison on that one. My horse is 16.2, weighs 1200 pounds and spent the first 5 years of his life running at Belmont. I'm exactly 10% of his weight, yet I have complete control of feet. No strength is involved. It is simply properly timed applied leverage and a level headed rider. 

It's a great tool and fantastic confidence builder. Little secret, the horse only knows he's stronger than you if you tell (or show) him otherwise.


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## mishaaliana (Feb 20, 2010)

Thanks for posting this. I took my horse out on the trails today and she spooked and I didn't have room to pull her into a circle so I had to ride it out. That certainly freaked me out lol


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I am glad that I learned to ride western, with a curb bit, with one hand, because it taught me to have light hands. I never have a death grip on the reins or ride with lots of contact. About the only time I have lots of contact is when I ride with a full cheek snaffle (just for fun) and I let my horse run and then I have to slow him back down. With the snaffle I do have to pull more than I would like. 

But mostly I ride with a tom thumb type bit and a loose reins. If the horse spooks I have had good luck just circling them around, often by neck reining. I have been really lucky I guess never to be on a true runaway, but maybe the chose of bits does have something to do with it. But I trail ride exclusively and I have never had a problem just turning the horse around in a spooking situation. 

I think the problem with a snaffle is it teaches you to have harder hands. Because sometimes you have to pull to get the response you want, especially at gaits faster than a walk. With a curb, the horse responds like butter and you are always aware of the softness of the mouth and not to pull on it. 

Now that I have ridden for about 15 years, I have learned to get more comfortable riding two handed with light contact, but I still don't like the feel of contact very much. I like the horse to back off the bit with the slightest touch of the reins. I just got a Foxtrotter a while back, and the whole concept of having contact with the mouth kind of bothers me, but it seems like that is the usual method for riding their gait. With my other, non-gaited horse, I can get some collection without having much mouth contact, because he backs off the bit himself.

I see a lot of people riding in snaffle bridles with all kinds of cavessons and nosebands, but maybe if they rode in a mild leverage bit they wouldn't need a cavesson to keep thier horse's mouth shut? It does seem like a regular snaffle causes a horse to raise it's head and evade the bit more than a leverage bit, in my experience. When I ride in a snaffle I am always trying to keep my hands very low, and I finally realized that I am trying to get the same head carriage and leverage I would have if I had ridden in a tom thumb to begin with.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

trailhorserider said:


> I am glad that I learned to ride western, with a curb bit, with one hand, because it taught me to have light hands. I never have a death grip on the reins or ride with lots of contact. About the only time I have lots of contact is when I ride with a full cheek snaffle (just for fun) and I let my horse run and then I have to slow him back down. With the snaffle I do have to pull more than I would like.
> 
> But mostly I ride with a tom thumb type bit and a loose reins. If the horse spooks I have had good luck just circling them around, often by neck reining. I have been really lucky I guess never to be on a true runaway, but maybe the chose of bits does have something to do with it. But I trail ride exclusively and I have never had a problem just turning the horse around in a spooking situation.
> 
> ...


Guys listen to her. She knows what she is talking about


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

RiosDad said:


> Guys listen to her. She knows what she is talking about


 I agree completely and ride in a curb bit. I have a snaffle that I started as a first bit for a young horse, but I honestly consider it as just a training tool on the way to a curb. 


> I see a lot of people riding in snaffle bridles with all kinds of cavessons and nosebands, but maybe if they rode in a mild leverage bit they wouldn't need a cavesson to keep thier horse's mouth shut? It does seem like a regular snaffle causes a horse to raise it's head and evade the bit more than a leverage bit, in my experience.


Absolutely!


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Will reply to this when I get to work! Have lots to say :]


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## tealamutt (Aug 21, 2009)

oh, Allison, I kinda love you after that last post. Thanks for making my day!!


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## Rule of Reason (Feb 11, 2010)

wild_spot said:


> Will reply to this when I get to work! Have lots to say :]


I can't wait. I don't dare to take the duct tape off my mouth, myself. Snaffle bits create hard hands, indeed.

The number of horses I've seen with their mouths gaping from poor riders yanking on curb bits gives me the creepy crawlies. No one discipline or one type of bit automatically creates a better rider or softer hands. Soft hands must be LEARNED, and shanked bits are less forgiving than snaffles while we struggle over the years to learn that softness.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

I didn’t learn ‘english’ or ‘western’. I really hate this part of the horse culture in the US – it creates a really big divide between disciplines, and creates viewpoints like yours. Riding is riding, no matter what bit or saddle you may be using. Where I live, no one identifies as ‘english’ – We are all just riders! 

Now, the great debate: Snaffle Vs. Curb. Personally, I choose to use a snaffle. Why? Because there are things I can do in a snaffle I can’t do in a curb, but there is nothing I can do in a curb I can’t do in a snaffle :] 




> I think the problem with a snaffle is it teaches you to have harder hands. Because sometimes you have to pull to get the response you want, especially at gaits faster than a walk. With a curb, the horse responds like butter and you are always aware of the softness of the mouth and not to pull on it.


 
^ The problem with this paragraph is you are essentially comparing a well trained horse in a curb, to a badly trained horse in a snaffle. A well trained horse will respond like butter, and not have to be pulled, in *any* bit. A horse that isn’t well trained may have to be pulled on, no matter if it’s in a snaffle *or* a curb. It may LOOK harsher in a snaffle, visually, but the curb is actually far stronger and when pulled exerts much more pressure than the snaffle. A curb does not ‘magically’ create a trained horse who doesn’t need correction – Curbs are usually put on when the the horse has reached this stage. A horse who is started in a curb would need to be pulled/prodded as much, or more, than a horse started in a snaffle. 

And again – A good rider is aware of the softness of the mouth in *any* bit. It isn’t a trait exclusive to a snaffle or curb. A good rider wont’ lose their feel and skill if they happen to put a snaffle in that day.




> Now that I have ridden for about 15 years, I have learned to get more comfortable riding two handed with light contact, but I still don't like the feel of contact very much. I like the horse to back off the bit with the slightest touch of the reins. I just got a Foxtrotter a while back, and the whole concept of having contact with the mouth kind of bothers me, but it seems like that is the usual method for riding their gait. With my other, non-gaited horse, I can get some collection without having much mouth contact, because he backs off the bit himself.


 
Okay, I feel like I need to explain something. Firstly, if you are achieving collection, the horse should never be backing off the bit, in a curb OR snaffle. That just means they are tucking their head, Collection is when they are reaching for the contact and stretching through the body – There is almost a circle of energy, that is being blocked from escaping at the front by the bit, and at the back by your leg and seat. If your horse is backing off the bit, the energy isn’t flowing through the horse and they lose collection.

I also want to say that while you don’t have a direct contact in a curb, you still have a similar amount of influence on the mouth. Lifting the hand an inch or two will actually produce much the same amount of pressure on the mouth as tightening the reins in a snaffle will. That is the point of the shanks – You still influence the mouth while on a loose rein. 

I won’t comment on the use of nosebands etc. – As I don’t use them. 

I also trail ride exclusively when I’m not competing due to not having an arena or anywhere to school. And I do it all in a snaffle. The majority of my trail rides are ridden on a rein just as loose as you would have your reins with a curb, but I don’t influence the bit *at all* because I have a snaffle. If you are truly touting a curb as the least obtrusive bit on the trail, I would say you are wrong, a snaffle on a loose rein is much less obtrusive as no slight movement of your hands will disturb the bit.

Basically the issue I have with your post is that you are comparing a good rider and trained horse in a curb, to a bad rider and badly trained horse in a snaffle. If you even the playing field, i.e. compare a good rider and a well trained, responsive horse in both a snaffle and a curb, you will find there is NO difference in the amount of pulling/pressure on the mouth. The snaffle looks visually like there is, but in truth, there isn’t a difference. Those slight movements of the hand used with a curb are magnified by the shanks – We need more exaggerated actions to get the same effect. 

There are as many people out there abusing curbs, actually I would venture to say more so due to mis-information on how they work, as there are abusing snaffles. Bad riding and bad training is abundant no matter what the discipline. You can compare drop nosebands (Whose actual purpose is to keep the bit still in the mouth) and martingales to gags/combination bits and tiedowns in the western world. No discipline is scot-free.

My horse rides in both a snaffle and a curb. I would welcome you to come have a look and a ride in both bits if you were in my country! He goes happily in a contact in the snaffle, on a loose rein in the snaffle, and on a loose rein in the curb. He doesn’t back off the contact in the snaffle, and he happily carries himself in the curb.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

tealamutt said:


> oh, Allison, I kinda love you after that last post. Thanks for making my day!!


Why, thank you!!

I was hoping Rios would comment. Maybe he was afraid to? :twisted:

I wouldn't use my Taser on him for his somewhat patronizing comments....it would require too much paperwork.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> Guys listen to her. She knows what she is talking about





Vidaloco said:


> I agree completely and ride in a curb bit. I have a snaffle that I started as a first bit for a young horse, but I honestly consider it as just a training tool on the way to a curb.
> 
> Absolutely!


Thanks guys! I take that as quite a compliment! :mrgreen:


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

wild_spot said:


> I didn’t learn ‘english’ or ‘western’. I really hate this part of the horse culture in the US – it creates a really big divide between disciplines, and creates viewpoints like yours. Riding is riding, no matter what bit or saddle you may be using. Where I live, no one identifies as ‘english’ – We are all just riders!
> 
> I agree with that, the horse doesn't care if we are "english" or "western." I guess I just always put my experiences in the context that I ride western, because I have never really ridden english, and it is always the english style riders I see riding with a lot of contact. I was never taught to ride with contact, so I really don't understand the concept of always riding with contact. It seems like it would be really annoying for the horse.
> 
> ...



Sounds good to me! I guess mainly I wanted to defend the tom thumb, argentine or shanked snaffle. It seems like they get a lot of bad press, but it is my favorite bit. And to bring the subject back around to the original post, I never have to worry about pulley reins. If the horse spooks I just spin him back around with one hand. :lol:


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

I wouldn't say it is for the lazier rider - It really is a bit for refinement. I guess the point I keep getting stuck is that you don't actually pull more with a snaffle than you do with a curb - it just looks different because in a snaffle you do ti with contact, and with a curb you don't. 

I also want to say that contact isn't holding the mouth - A good contact is really just letting the weight of the bit rest in the mouth and only adjusting when needed. Much the same as a curb, again it is just a different look, not so much a different feel. I found this to be extremely true when I put Bundy in a curb for the first time and headed out - He really was no different, just in a lower frame.



> Maybe it's just me and my horses. I know if I rode my Mustang in a snaffle day in and day out, I would have stronger hands and less finesse.


See I see it as the opposite - It requires more finnesse to make the same cues look just as effortless in a snaffle as it does in a curb - We don't have the shanks to magnify what our hands do, so we have to quiet our hands even more.



> By the way though, what can you do in a snaffle that you can't do in a curb? I have never found a curb bit to limit what I can do when I'm out riding.


I do a lot of different things with my horses. Jumping is the main thing that comes to mind. I also two-hand most of the time, and switch between neck-reining and direct reining, as well as switching between a more 'english' frame with contact and a more 'western' frame without the same degree of contact. I also much prefer a snaffle on the trails because I feel comfortable taking up a direct rein if I need it, where I wouldn't in a curb. My way of dealing with spooks includes using an indirect rein of opposition - Or using a direct contact on my outside rein to keep his head tipped away, and my outside leg to maintain our line and speed. I also lend my horses a fair bit - Having him in a snaffle means I don't have to worry about riders who may not have the finesse to be riding in a curb.


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