# clicker training horse to stand for mounting



## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

I started a little clicker training with my horse.

If you think about the basic idea of clicker training.. you want to reward for good behavior by the use of the clicker. So when the horse does something you like, you click.

So the way I would do it is over exaggerate it at first. Break it down into steps. Lead the horse as usually, say ho. When the horse stops, click; treat. Keep doing so for a few more times until it becomes ingrained. 

Then work on "ground tying" by draping the rope on your horse's neck and asking the horse to stand still for 5 seconds. Click; treat. Repeat until it becomes immediate. 

Then it's a matter of training the horse to stand near certain things. Usually it's best to start with a mounting block. I've not gotten this far but a way I think would work is if you ground tied your horse a few feet away, you stand by the block, ask the horse to come to you, after the horse comes and halts, click; treat.

Then just keep changing it up. maybe have a word to associate with parking at something you're standing at for mounting? 

My horse will park himself at the mounting block and the fence. 

I hope that gives you an idea. There's probably better ways to do it, but that's how I've worked at it


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I want to start clicker training, but I haven't yet. But I DID teach both my horses to stand for mounting using treats. It works great. Now my friends do it too.

What I did was start out mounting in the usual way. Even if they walk off or whatever, just do the best you can, get on, try to make the horse stand, tap the side of their neck and give them a treat.

I use the tapping on the neck as a cue to turn and get the treat. But your horse won't know this at first, so you will probably have to turn their neck around using one rein while holding the treat out to them.

Anyway, after doing this several times they expect a treat as soon as you mount, so they really stand well for mounting. I didn't have a specific problem with mounting blocks with either of mine, but both would walk off and I am not that graceful and need a mounting block myself.

So basically just mount the best you can, tap horse's neck, give treat, and with luck they will start anticipating it and standing still for you to mount. It works great for me and my friends. Even one friend who was against feeding treats is now doing it. :lol:


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hi,
Look up some clicker sites & you will find some good books, but you should get a fair idea from the sites. Learn the principles of it & then it should be reasonably straightforward for you to work out specifics of anything you want to teach.

Basically agree with Skys above. Break down the 'goal' into baby steps & teach them first, before combining them for the desired outcome. For eg. you need him to learn to stand on cue, take a step or 2 forward or back to be in best position, you might need your horse to come to you from a distance(eg if he walks away when you're on the block & you can't be bothered getting off & going to get him:wink, back up, yield to pressure from the opposite side of his body - eg. you want to teach him to move his rump or shoulder closer to the mounting block when you're on it. 

Start asking things as easy as possible - eg. start out asking him to stand on cue only for a second or few & don't walk away. Once he cottons on to that, start increasing the amount of time you ask, OR asking him to do it for a very short time while you move away or around him. Only begin combining different criteria once he's good at the the basic 'ingredients'.


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## sierrams1123 (Jul 8, 2011)

I think clicker training is a joke, but that is just my opinion.
I would not even use it one my dog.
I do not want to have to make sure some silly clicker thing is on me 24/7 so that if I ask any one of my animals to do something they will do.

I am a firm believer in using voice and body language/hand commands.
I want my horse to know how to stand still/patient no matter what I am doing with them.
I am dealing with an antsy mare right now that has a bit of a mounting issue. She wont make a fuss or anything and its always after the first time you mount her. The first time you get one she is fine, but if you get off (say to open a gate or something) she will move a few steps when you go to get right back on. She does not do this though if you have gotten off of her and she has been tied to a trailer or been left alone for a little while, only when you try and get right back on once you have just gotten off.
It is a getting more rare because I have been working with her on it, one day I spent almost two hours doing nothing but mounting and dismounting. If the horse does not stand still for you to mount make them move their feet, if they want to move make them work then ask for them to stand still for you to mount and if they move again make them work again. This is the best method that has worked for me.
The main thing is repetition with most animals, stay consistent in your training and always make sure you reward them when they do something correctly.
This is where a lot of people mess up, if you are only punishing the animal for the wrong and you never reward them for the right they will never understand what it is your are wanting them to do.
Treats are a good tool but I do not always have a treat one hand so most of my rewards are praise and love.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

sierrams1123 said:


> I do not want to have to make sure some silly clicker thing is on me 24/7 so that if I ask any one of my animals to do something they will do.


Yep that's exactly why I stopped.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

No clicker, just a simple chicken cluck works. The click/cluck tells the horse he's done the right thing and that a treat will follow. Not all horses need clicker training but when one is skilled in this it can be an asset when nothing else seems to work.


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## shawnakarrasch (Sep 20, 2011)

Here is a video link for mounting with positive reinforcement/clicker training. The term "clicker training" is a bit of a misnomer. The training is positive reinforcement training and the clicker is not necessary and you are certainly not stuck with it for the rest of your days. I use one when training a new behavior. There are a number of behavioral reasons why I choose to use the clicker as my bridge signal (communication) at first. I often move to a verbal bridge signal. At Sea World we didn't use clicker either. However, mostly I utilize the training to train a new behavior. Once trained it is just a part of their behavior repertoire and I don't need to draw attention to the behavior. Other people also handle and ride my horses. They do not utilize positive reinforcement training. I have had people, including my vet, call to compliment my horse's behavior. My vet was having to deal with wounds and he called to say my guy was phenomenal. When was the last time someone was so imperssed with your horse they had to call and tell you? The training carries over to all situations. The principles that are behind "clicker" training are proven principles that are at work in your horse's life whether you are aware of it or not. The more you learn about them the more effective you will be as a trainer/horse owner. Anyway, here is the link:
Mounting: Look No Hands!! : On Target Training with Shawna Karrasch


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

sierrams1123 said:


> This is where a lot of people mess up, if you are only punishing the animal for the wrong and you never reward them for the right they will never understand what it is your are wanting them to do.
> Treats are a good tool but I do not always have a treat one hand so most of my rewards are praise and love.


Yes - the reward should be the removal of pressure. I add a pat or verbal praise. They might not understand the exact words but they understand the tone of voice.

They shouldn't need treats to do something they are supposed to do.


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## shawnakarrasch (Sep 20, 2011)

The removal of pressure is called negative reinforcement. It is a reinforcer but it is not as effective as positive reinforcement. This has been proven. Positive reinforcement is something that the horse wants, desires and/or needs to survive...in other words something the will seek out on their own. Some primary reinforcers are food, air, water, sleep and procreation. They have been hard wired for these things, so this makes their value as motivators unrivaled by anything we currently hold in our training methods.

Negative reinforcement has been used successfully for hundreds of years but by adding positive to the equation you improve motivation and performance. They don't need positive reinforcement to do what we think they should do be doing. But it makes the process easier and the physiologial responses related to negative reinforcement aren't part of the equation. As I pointed out in my previous post, the final product does not end in needing treats to have a stellar performance. By utilizing positive reinforcement to your training you actually put something in it for the horse, The results are better for everyone...not just the humans.


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## sierrams1123 (Jul 8, 2011)

Wow...really?!
That is a huge training tool for me.....and almost everyone I know.
How, may I ask, is it negative reinforcement?
I not only release the pressure but I praise with pats and words of praise. Mostly words of praise because unless I am done with my hands at the time I do not want to stop the work I am doing and throw everything off. My horse and any horse I have ever ridden understand more with the release pressure meathod then any other meathod I have tried. So neg or not in your opinion I will continue to do what I have had huge results from.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

shawnakarrasch said:


> The removal of pressure is called negative reinforcement.


So when I quit pinching you - that is negative in your mind?


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## shawnakarrasch (Sep 20, 2011)

Pressure and release is negative reinforcement. Did you miss the part when I said it is an effective training tool? Look what has been done with horses? It is amazing but it is done through negative reinforcement.

Negative reinforcement has a reinforcing value through the removal(release) of an aversive(pressure). The horse is working for the removal, subtraction of the pressure. When the pressure is removed it has a reinforcing value thus increases the frequency of the behavior that precedes it. Positive reinforcement is when something is added to the equation that has a reinforcing value thus increases the frequency of the behavior that precedes the delivery of the reinforcement. Very simple. Think of it like a negative number...it is not a bad number it is just removed from the equation. A positive number is not a good number it it a number that is added to the equation.

Negative reinforcement is a staple of traditional and Natural Horsemanship training methods. There is nothing wrong with that. I ride with my legs, my hands and my seat. I also utilize positive reinforcement. I am not saying you should use it. It is your horse you can do whatever you want to him. 

I applaud the people who have open minds and are willing to continue to grow. These are proven principles and the information is available to anyone who wants to become a bettter horse person. A degree in psychology is not required to train animals. However,some undersatnding, is helpful. All of the work we do as animal trainers (with horses too) is based in psychology. Whether we are aware of it or not. So, the more you understand about these proven principles the better you are as a trainer. They govern the relationships we build with our horses.

No need to be defensive. This is not meant to put down what you, me or the rest of the horse world does with our horses. I was addessing someones question about utilizing the positive reinforcement training for mounting.


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## shawnakarrasch (Sep 20, 2011)

THe quitting(release) of the pinching(pressure) is the reinforcer. I am reinforced by the removal of the pinching...


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Not to be rude, but this thread is getting way off track. The video was helpful I'm sure to the OP, but if you're going to talk about pressure release and negative/positive reinforcement, make your own thread and do it to your heart's content


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

sierrams1123 said:


> I think clicker training is a joke, ...
> I do not want to have to make sure some silly clicker thing is on me 24/7.... The main thing is repetition with most animals, stay consistent in your training and always make sure you reward them when they do something correctly.


With respect, if you think a plastic clicker is necessary, you have missed the whole point IMO. It has been dubbed 'clicker training' because many people have found the clicker can be a handy tool, giving a unique, short, sharp signal. Studies have apparently found that this type of signal seems to effect the amygdala on some level that makes learning easier(can't recall all the brainy details to explain that better). However it doesn't matter what you use so long as you understand the principles in order to be effective. Which are just positive reinforcement based applied behavioural psychology(sounds heavier than it is!)

Your last point is vitally important IMO & basically what c/t is about - well timed consistent repetition of rewarding(or in behavioural terms, positively reinforcing) 'right' behaviours. Some positive reinforcement trainers are 'purists' & don't believe in any negative reinforcement or punishment. I personally find -R very important in horse training myself, but I find that positive punishment is rarely necessary or desirable.

I personally find that using a clicker or such is a pain when working with horses on stuff that you need your hands for too & I predominantly use the word "Good!" as the 'bridging signal'.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Saddlebag said:


> No clicker, just a simple chicken cluck works.


Yeah, tried that, but it hurts my tongue!:lol:


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

So OP, is any of this helpful.. or?



loosie said:


> I personally find that using a clicker or such is a pain when working with horses on stuff that you need your hands for too & I predominantly use the word "Good!" as the 'bridging signal'.


Yeah exactly. I put down the clicker but I still use the same training tools that encompass it. If that makes sense. If I say "good boy" though my horse takes that as "completely stop working and grab grass or leave the arena" from past poor training so we use "good Sky" and he knows he's done well and we keep on trucking.

I do sometimes use treats as incentive, though, when he's struggling with something and he's not sure which direction to go in. If he tries and it's in the right direction, he gets a little something. That helps him out.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

mls said:


> Yes - the reward should be the removal of pressure.


How would you like to be 'rewarded' for working all week by your boss quitting hassling or forcing you?? Not much of a reward, huh? It is an effective training principle, but it is not a reward.



> I add a pat or verbal praise.


'Patting' as in gently slapping a horse IME is not generally something a horse looks forward to(so not a reward), although other grooming & a good scratch can be a great +R. Praise can become meaningful to a horse in the same way as a clicker does, if it is combined with +R it comes to be associated with Good Stuff.



> They shouldn't need treats to do something they are supposed to do.


I don't get that - why 'shouldn't' they be rewarded & why/what are they 'supposed' to do? 



> Mostly words of praise because unless I am done with my hands at the time I do not want to stop the work


Horses learn by *instant* association, so if you consistently do this, praise to your horse will come to mean continuation of work.



> So when I quit pinching you - that is negative in your mind?


Yep, exactly. The behavioural definitions are;

Positive Reinforcement(aka reward) - *Adding* something *desireable* in order to *strengthe*n a behaviour

Negative Reinforcement(aka pressure/release) - *Removing* something *undesireable* in order to *strengthen* a behaviour

Positive Punishment - *Adding* something *undesireable* in order to *weaken* a behaviour

Negative Punishment - *Removing* something *desireable* in order to *weaken* a behaviour



> Not to be rude, but this thread is getting way off track.


Yeah & as OP didn't ask for a debate on the pros & cons, I think the knockers were a bit rude jumping in, but hopefully now they will understand better what it is they're arguing about!:wink:


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## shawnakarrasch (Sep 20, 2011)

Wow, that whole thread picked up some momentum while I was away.


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## sierrams1123 (Jul 8, 2011)

loosie said:


> How would you like to be 'rewarded' for working all week by your boss quitting hassling or forcing you?? Not much of a reward, huh? It is an effective training principle, but it is not a reward.


It would be for me, I would get the hint that he was not getting onto me anymore so I must be doing something right. BUT LIKE I SAID BEFORE AND WILL SAY AGAIN I REWARD MY HORSE AS WELL AS RELEASE THE PRESSURE.




loosie said:


> 'Patting' as in gently slapping a horse IME is not generally something a horse looks forward to(so not a reward), although other grooming & a good scratch can be a great +R. Praise can become meaningful to a horse in the same way as a clicker does, if it is combined with +R it comes to be associated with Good Stuff.


By patting my horse I meant any kind of praise with my hand like rubbing, scratching, you know stuff like that. Of course I am not stupid enough to think my mare would enjoy being smacked, hints why I said patting not smacking.

Also, my comment about not having my hands free means my hands are busy holding two reins and I am asking her to do something by holding steady pressure or adding more pressure just because I release any of the pressure does not mean I am done riding. So yes, sometimes I can not just drop my reins and give ire physical praise because then if I did it might mean back to square one with what I has just taught her.

This is my personal preference and it has proven itself to work for me my entire horse career so I will continue to ride/work wih horses this way until the day it does not work then I am not going to change the way I ride/work my horses. If its not broke don't fix it.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

sierrams1123 said:


> It would be for me, I would get the hint that he was not getting onto me anymore so I must be doing something right. BUT LIKE I SAID BEFORE AND WILL SAY AGAIN I REWARD MY HORSE AS WELL AS RELEASE THE PRESSURE.


Oh OK. That's kind of 'back handed' to me & I don't think most people would feel rewarded by that sort of thing, to actually make them want to go to work in that situation, getting nothing for it & I'd see it as slavery rather than employment - that sort of boss would also have to force me to stay there, not just do the job. Behaviourally - which is what we're discussing - it's not seen as reward or positive reinforcement. If you look at what I was responding to, there's no reason to shout that last bit, because I was just responding to mls saying reward _was_ removal of pressure.



> By patting my horse I meant any kind of praise with my hand like rubbing, scratching, you know stuff like that. Of course I am not stupid enough to think my mare would enjoy being smacked, hints why I said patting not smacking.


OK. Good to hear it. Wasn't assuming, but I explained the difference because IME many, many people are indeed that 'stupid', so much so that in my experience 'patting' does indeed generally mean slapping - like dogs & men often enjoy. I'm sure some horses - like some cats & women:lol: probably like it, but IME it's not generally a real reward for a horse. I've even had people smack my horse on the nose for being a 'good boy'!:evil: 



> So yes, sometimes I can not just drop my reins and give ire physical praise because then if I did it might mean back to square one with what I has just taught her.


Not trying to be argumentative or assuming, just explaining that horses learn from instant association & *IF* you consistently did this, *IF* there was no release or reward, your 'praise' would mean nothing but continuation of work. Praise must be linked with actual reinforcement in order for it to gain the meaning we intend of it. However, as with clickers, treats, whatever, it doesn't mean that a signal has to always be linked to a consequence in order for the animal to understand, once learned.



> This is my personal preference and it has proven itself to work for me my entire horse career so I will continue to ride/work wih horses this way until the day it does not work then I am not going to change the way I ride/work my horses. If its not broke don't fix it.


Again no worries, I'm not interested in arguing, just trying to explain what I read in behavioural principles. I'm sure not everyone cares, but I find understanding the principles behind the specifics of what we do fascinating & helpful. Cheers!


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## sierrams1123 (Jul 8, 2011)

loosie said:


> Not trying to be argumentative or assuming, just explaining that horses learn from instant association & *IF* you consistently did this, *IF* there was no release or reward, your 'praise' would mean nothing but continuation of work. Praise must be linked with actual reinforcement in order for it to gain the meaning we intend of it. However, as with clickers, treats, whatever, it doesn't mean that a signal has to always be linked to a consequence in order for the animal to understand, once learned.


Just wanted to add I always release pressure once they have responded to it and I either give them verbal or physical praise oblong with it, just meant that sometimes just because I have released my pressure does not mean it frees my hands.


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## Sheepdog (Sep 25, 2011)

Hi all
Wow! this thread went beyond my wildest dreams. I have nothing against "NH / negative reinforcement / ..." call it what you like training and most of the time use CA or RE Smiths' training methods. These two gentlemens' training methods are very simimlar. CA uses a knotted rope halter for starters, RE uses a Hackamore (Bosal). The main problem why I'm thinking of trying C\Training is old Hans, the horse I have the mounting problem with is a 20 year old wily coyote with a lifetime of bad habits to unlearn. 
Up untill now I've managed the problem by keeping his halter on under his bridle and tying him to a "hitching post" I have in front of my tack room. He unfortunately recently decided to get wolf teeth and since I can't do anything till my equine dentist comes by sometime next month I'm hoping to ride him in a mechanical Hack. We only trail ride on our farm, familiar trails, he just gets a bit hot on the way home, hence the mechanical hack. I'm worried the halters nose piece will interfere with the hacks working, so now I have to solve the issue asap. Since C\training worked well with his foot issues I'm hoping I can solve his moving while I try to mount without a "confrontation". He also absolutely adores anything that looks like carrots/ other treats. 
As for my Young horses, I like having a lot of tools in my toolbox, if one for whatever reaon doesn't work, I can try something else. 
All in all this has been an interesting thread. It's always interesting hearing your opinions. 
Thanks everybody.


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