# Breeding debate



## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

after an interesting thred ive seen i wanted to start a topic.

BREEDING.

why ? Why not rescue a horse in need theres tons of greenies if you want a prospect or training project. theres also tons' of school masters at those auctions. as well as babys. IMO a lot of 'breeders' arent breeders. they are muny hungry and dont care 100% about their mares well being in the long run. Not saying any one on here is that way.. thats the majority though.

so WHY do you, or would you breed over rescuing a living breathing in need of help horse rather than bringing in another life to this moneyless world to just possibly end up at auction ?

not trying to get on any ones bad side im interested in hearing opinions.

I myself wont ever breed my mares. im a supporter of rescue as thats where all my horse's have come from.


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## xeventer17 (Jan 26, 2009)

As a general rule I'd rather rescue than breed. I am NOT, however, saying that breeding is not okay. I think it depends very much on the situation. I think the only time you should breed horses is if they have very promising bloodlines and you are looking for a horse which will excel in a specific discipline. I think that if you breed just to breed or because you just want a baby, then rescuing is definitely the way you should go.


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## SFMoneyMarket (Sep 20, 2008)

This is a big issue with me.

Personally, I feel that if someone wants to breed their horse, they have the right to do so. I obviously would prefer that only high quality horses be bred in responsible settings, but honestly if the conditions are right and the person is a responsible horse owner that is prepared to take on the burden of having a foal around, who are we or anyone else to judge them for that.

There are a lot of reasons not to rescue. Some people are breeding to get a horse that can potentially be ridden and shown. A lot of rescue horse's have health problems that do not allow riding or showing for that matter. Many rescues won't even ALLOW you to show a perfectly sound horse. Another reason is that they want a baby out of their own horse, for bloodlines or whatever other reason. Many people think that this is "cruel because there are helpless horses out there.." I think this is not the case. As much as I feel terrible about the horse's out there that are in need of good homes and care, it isn't my fault or responsibility. It's almost like the people who breed are blamed for those homeless horse's existence. As long as they are being responsible, they have absolutely nothing to do with the problem.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to run out and rescue as many horse's as possible, but you can't judge someone because they don't want to and would rather breed. It's not a crime, it's a personal decision.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

I would rather breed. For several reasons.

One the chance of finding what I want and need at a rescue is slime to none. Plane and simple. The horses that I want do not hit rescues. If they do the chances I would find them at the time I want one and get their papers and be able to do what I want with that horse are even slimmer.

That leads me to my next reason I do not rescue. The limitations on what I can do with that horse. Most of the time you get no papers so you do not know the lines of the horse. Once you do get them trained you can not sell them for their value you either have to return them to the rescue or re home then to an approved home. So that limits what I can do with MY PROPERTY. So that is a very very big turn off for me.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

I think it all depends on what you have and what you want to do with the baby. 

If someone has a great mare and breed it to the great stud (I know some examples around here as well as some examples on this forum) for the particular discipline that baby would be potentially good, then why not? You know what you are getting and the potential of the baby and you can start it from ground zero. Of course, things happen too, but it worse the risk IMO.

However if someone decides to breed a mare just to get a foal, that's something I don't think I can understand. Even from financial point of view: it's just much cheaper to get a baby at the auction or even from private buyer. So for such cases I'd say rescue!


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Uh oh. This thread is either going to be really great and informative...or really bad. 

I buy. I don't like auctions despite getting my current horse from one. I don't get enough information about the horse and it makes too many impulse buys. Maybe thats just for me though. I wouldn't mind getting a horse from a rescue, but I am more inclined to buy. That way I know exactly what I am getting and if it fits what I need. 

There are certain times when breeding is certainly the right choice though. If you know what you are doing, have the money and time to put into breeding a mare. I think if you just want to plod around on the trails and muck around at local shows, buy/rescue. If you need a certain type of high caliber horse for performance, I have no problem with breeding. 

Not many people do I think (?) 
The problem is people who breed just for fun and because foals are so cute and they want to raise the foal because that will make it special and well this stud is pretty and my mare is so sweet so the baby will be pretty AND sweet...
That's where the problems begin


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## Kentucky (Aug 2, 2008)

I would perfer to breed for several reasons; one, I have more control over the genetics of the foal, know the foal more personally, and more control over the training over the foal. 

If all horse breeding was shut down day. in 4 years the derbies and futurities would be gone. In 11 years there would no horses in eventing, dressage, hunter jumper, roping, or any other event; I know it does take 10 years to get a foal to be able to compare in those events but that is when they seem to be at their prime. In 20 to 30 years there will be no horses for anyone period. 

Yes there are allot of horses out there that, I won't even look at buying or have wondered what were those breeders thinking. Some of it is not what I like or it doesn't match what I would use a horse for. And some of those horses are perfect for waht they are breed to do, a Shire would be a horrible to run in the Kentucky Derby but it is a great horse for pulling a wagon for example. I also question why are they breeding halter horses that are HYPP N/H.

While adopting is most likely is cheaper than breeding. Is it better for what you are doing? And this is something my grand dad told me when I was a kid. The cheapest one does the job, we were comparing cattle prod at the time and I had reached for the cheaper one of the two. And he told be me nope the other one, the cheaper one doesn't do the job right.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Breeding horses is legal, and people will do whatever they want.

That being said, I don't think the 'average joe' or 'average jane' should be breeding. As Spastic indicated, most of the time it's for emotional reasons instead of something well thought out.

Wanting a foal from particular bloodlines for a certain discipline is a GOOD reason. Wanting a foal because your mare is 'pretty' and 'sweet' and 'would make a good mommy' are not good reasons.

You have to look at WHY you're breeding a particular stallion to a particular mare. Just because one has working testicles and the other a uterus, do not necessarily make them good breeding partners.

What are your plans for the foal? If you haven't thought past, "We want a foal 'cause my mare deserves to be a mommy and the baby will be kyoot", you should not be breeding. 

GOOD stallion fees are rarely free, and if you're breeding to Billy Bob's grade paint stallion down the road because his price is right, you should not be breeding.

Breeding is serious business, and I've seen some horrendous crosses that made me wonder what drug the mare and stallion owners were on when they decided to mate their horses.

Genetics are a tricky thing. Even the best breeding can go awry and NOT produce the foal you want. However, the odds are better if you start with good stock and breed to good stock for specific, well thought out reasons.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I personally would rather rescue or pick up an unbroken horse from an auction. I can appreciate well bred horses but I just don't have a need for them. With the horse population being what it is right now, I don't think that people who want to breed their backyard mare to the neighbor's backyard stud should because there are already way too many mediocre horses out there. I don't believe that breeding just because a person wants the experience of having a foal is a good reason. Neither is breeding because foals are so cute. Breeding just because a horse is crippled or unrideable and not good for a **** thing else is not okay. Neither is breeding funky looking mares to funky looking studs because "they don't have the same confo issues, they might even each other out", even if their temperments are decent. 

I think that people who breed well bred horses and are financially and intellectually capable of raising a foal well are fine because generally, they better the entire species.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I think that if you have the means and the knowledge, breeding is acceptable. Even if it's to less then stellar partners that most people may not think breeding is a good idea. We can't all be breeding champions 24/7, there is a huge market for reliable trail horses. No, you don't want to be breeding dysfunctional disasters for the sake of breeding, but I don't have an issue with "backyard breeding" if it's well thought out with a plan in mind. I get annoyed at "breeders" who pop out dozens of babies a year with no other intention then to sell them - I would rather see someone breeding a pair with conformational faults with a true intention of the foal then see these registered animals being auctioned every year for a few hundred bucks because the only thing they have going for them are some papers.

Breeding is a crapshoot regardless. You can breed champion to champion and get nothing - it happens all the time. And every once in awhile you can breed defective to defective and get something amazing because of the strength of the past lines.

Something VERY interesting was brought up on FHOTD awhile back - go take a look at some of our founding champions of different breeds. 9 times out of 10, at first glance, you would gasp and shake your fist saying "NOBODY SHOULD BREED THAT MESS". And yet they're the roots and lineage of today's champions. Certain conformation faults you don't want, but a skilled breeder can use the strength of a pedigree and breed those faults out.

I have no issue with breeding, I just have an issue with emotional breeding and mass breeding. These, realistically, are the horses you're finding at auction. They haven't been trained properly and were bred only to be sold, so nobody wants them. Even if things don't work out and you end up selling that mongrol foal you bred - all it takes is a few years of solid training to make them worth more then that registered yearling with an attitude problem.

Our area is also very different - we have WAY less issues with equine over population. We have a ridiculously growing need for reliable trail horses and a ridiculous lack of supply, so in my area, I would be far less opposed to someone breeding potentially less then stellar animals. Again though, it could just as easily be accomplished by buying some yearlings or two year olds and training them for homes.

I don't think anyone should be made to feel bad for breeding an animal that has a demand in their community. Rescueing is great, but more often then not, you're rescueing animals that are defective at best and may not amount to much. People shouldn't be forced to deal with other peoples problems if they know what they're doing.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

just for the record i was talking about pulling from an auction not a rescue itself. but either case i guess its the same.

also wanted to add

my 18 hand mare that i pulled out of the kill pen at 500 + lbs under weight is a amazing jumper. never trained as a riding horse until i got her,

the qh i rescued is a reining show horse now

the morgan /tb i rescued is a schooling horse and the paint cross i rescued is a trail endurance horse. all 4 i pulled out on the same day same kill pen. 

i just want people to know GOOD AMAZING horses end up at the auction. but its a 50/50 shot. some are lame some that are lame are suspensotory and not permanent . that qh i took had a huge open laceration to his hind stifle and he healed fine. just has a diff. pogmentaition when the scar is. he's still drop dead gorgeous. im not 100% against breeding so to say but if its not for a good cause then i dont agree. as good cause can be 100 diff. definitions.


you can see my rescues on www.allforhorses.moogo.com =] if any one is interested that is hehe


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

barnprincess, your horses are gorgeous. I completely agree you may find a diamond among the rescues, but many people want to know upfront what they are getting. And I totally understand that too. With that being said both my horses came from not-so-good (really bad for paint) situations.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> barnprincess, your horses are gorgeous. I completely agree you may find a diamond among the rescues, but many people want to know upfront what they are getting. And I totally understand that too. With that being said both my horses came from not-so-good (really bad for paint) situations.


every horse has a part that can be brought out in them . my big mare being a great example. i just get frustrated when i see all these people breeding and no ones buying right now and they end up at slaughter. its not fair to the horse(s) . Most auctions tell you everything they were told when the horse was brought in. i got a story / history on all 4 of mine. you just have to ask ask ask ! my gf got a tb from there the same day as me and she got her jockey papers with her.


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## skittle1120 (Oct 24, 2009)

I don't have a problem with taking in a rescue horse, and I'm sure the standerdbred cross in my pasture is glad I took her in before she ended up at an auction, but in general, I wouldn't take a horse from a rescue farm for many reasons. The biggest reason I wouldn't is because the rescue barns in my area insist on maintaining ownership of the horse, even though they expect the person taking the animal to pay for everything for it... So I wouldn't technically own an animal I rescued... Not cool... If I have a horse on my property, he's either mine, or his owner is paying for his care....


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

> The biggest reason I wouldn't is because the rescue barns in my area insist on maintaining ownership of the horse, even though they expect the person taking the animal to pay for everything for it... So I wouldn't technically own an animal I rescued... Not cool... If I have a horse on my property, he's either mine, or his owner is paying for his care....


ALL rescues do that. i was particularly talking about from kill pens . not adopting from rescues sorry about the confusion.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

You may find a good horse at an auction. But 50/50 isn't the case if you want something to compete in high levels. Is it possible? sure. But if you want your next FEI/NBHA, etc horse you're odds are better to either breed for it from proven mares and studs or to purchase a prospect that is bred for it. 

I am all for people rescuing horses. But there are certain times where rescuing is going to be (more often than not) a waste of time if you are looking for a certain caliber of horse.


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## skittle1120 (Oct 24, 2009)

I'm not against getting an auction horse, I'm sure there are horses out there that are good, and are just going to auction due to financial crisis, or some other circumstance. 

As for rescues, I think they would have better luck placing horses if they removed some of the restrictions involved with taking one....


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

skittle1120 said:


> I'm not against getting an auction horse, I'm sure there are horses out there that are good, and are just going to auction due to financial crisis, or some other circumstance.
> 
> As for rescues, I think they would have better luck placing horses if they removed some of the restrictions involved with taking one....


I will agree with this 100%.


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## Eastowest (Mar 26, 2009)

Rescue or breeding?
I do a little of both. 
I do breed (0 to 4 foals a year, using a stallion who has sired res. World Champions and etc., and mares who are sired by champions/have produced champions in my breed). out of the last 6 foals born here (over 3 breeding seasons), I have kept 2, and I know exactly where the other 4 went and still are.

I also have saved a few horses over the years who were headed to a not so nice place and I was pretty much their last resort. A couple were very high quality mares that for reasons of injury-related unsoundness (not genetic weakness related) were not ridable and not so easy to find homes for as they were "niche" type mares as far as breeding choices, but they work for my program and I am willing to deal with their needs. 

Another was well trained mare who was a bad match for her owner, and who also cribbed like a son-of-a-gun, and her owner was dumping her-- I didn't feel she was breeding quality for what I was doing, but I got her and was able to re-sell her to a good responsible barn who is using her for schooling intermediate hunter/jumper students and they love her and could care less if she cribs. 

I also adopted 2 OTTB mares from CANTER (one would never be sound for riding, the other had an old chip in her knee and would probably be OK for flat work), had them for a couple of years, got them totally acclimated to life as pampered pasture puffs, bred them to my current stallion (who sires winners from that type of TB mare) and a few months ago sold them to another approved CANTER adopter for the price of the stud fees, happy to see them and the upcoming foals at a new sporthorse facility where they will get top care and the foals will be given every opportunity they are good enough to get.

So, none of my "rescues" were from auctions-- they were all from private sellers/orgs-- three mares came from people I knew and/or had purchased from before, who called me specifically to see if I was interested in the horses as they knew I liked the type/bloodlines and they could be upfront with me about the mares' issues without turning me off.

I adopted the first mare (the unsound one) from CANTER and a few weeks later they called me, wanting me to take the second mare thinking she would also be a good match (she was a 1/2 sister to the first mare.)

Two of these mares (not the CANTER mares of course) were going to be donated to research (and eventual euthanization) and another was headed to a sale, if I didn't get them paid for and picked up ASAP. So, rescues they were, in that sense.

Over the years I have also been contacted about horses I had either bred, or had once owned, that the owners could no longer care for or no longer wanted due to life changes or whatever, and if I couldn't help them find a buyer or suitable home, I have taken them back and re-homed them-- including one I had shipped from MN to MI and another I had shipped from AZ to MI.

So.... do I choose breed or rescue? :-|


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## thinktwice (Dec 26, 2009)

barnprincess said:


> every horse has a part that can be brought out in them . my big mare being a great example. i just get frustrated when i see all these people breeding and no ones buying right now and they end up at slaughter. its not fair to the horse(s) .


You are so full of BS. Just the other month you were talking and talking about how you just had to BREED your mare, and GOD FORBID you take in another rescue. Make up your mind and stop lieing!!!!

breeding for height - Horse Forums (HGS)

I know its christmas, but if i can be sick on christmas, i can be mean on christmas also. 

I'm all for rescueing horses in need, and breeding *IF AND ONLY IF *what your breeding will produce a decent foal. 

But what i'm NOT FOR? Lairs!! Geesh!


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## thunderhooves (Aug 9, 2009)

wow. imon page 22 of the thread that you posted(thanksfor the link thinktwice), and Iam not even going to say anything. Based on how much you cussed on there, I think theyshould ban you beforeanything else happens. just MHO though.And you never listened to anyones honest opinion on there, anyway. Just threw rude comments at them and they responded back. They tried to fight fire with water and fire with fire. nothing worked.Maybe the big extinguisher should come out before it happens again. BTW, you should have put a third option on your poll:Buy. Because i don't breed( last time I checked my gelding couldn't get pregnant or be a stud), and I havent found anything I like at rescues, I bought.


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## lacyloo (Jul 1, 2008)

WOW...Thanks for the link (think twice). 
No comment LOL


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

> You are so full of BS. Just the other month you were talking and talking about how you just had to BREED your mare, and GOD FORBID you take in another rescue. Make up your mind and stop lieing!!!!


 
uh never did i say god forbid i take another rescue. . and to every one else i honestly dont care b/c every person on that other forum were all rediculosly rude.


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

I think the god forbid bit was her opinion about you taking another rescue. I read that and other people got rude after you got rude. They pointed out conformational faults in your mare that you seemed blind to and the fact that she had been sold because she was no longer suitable for breeding should have been warning bells to not breed her. Like it has been said how can you start something like this and insult people who breed when you wanted to do the same thing?


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## PaintHorseMares (Apr 19, 2008)

skittle1120 said:


> I don't have a problem with taking in a rescue horse, and I'm sure the standerdbred cross in my pasture is glad I took her in before she ended up at an auction, but in general, I wouldn't take a horse from a rescue farm for many reasons. The biggest reason I wouldn't is because the rescue barns in my area insist on maintaining ownership of the horse, even though they expect the person taking the animal to pay for everything for it... So I wouldn't technically own an animal I rescued... Not cool... If I have a horse on my property, he's either mine, or his owner is paying for his care....


This is the sad reason that I wouldn't take most rescues either. To me, it's like buying a great piece of land that has restrictive covenents telling you what you can/cannot do.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

> Like it has been said how can you start something like this and insult people who breed when you wanted to do the same thing?


WANTED. key word. meaning no longer interested in doing so.


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

But you were quite prepared to even when people had pointed out how unsuitable your mare was but to get back to the original question I would do neither, don't like auctions because it is rare to get a really good quality horse out of them and don't want to breed because I don't want the responsibility of raising a young horse and teaching it everything. I'd buy one suitable to my needs.


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## thinktwice (Dec 26, 2009)

barnprincess said:


> i honestly dont care b/c every person on that other forum were all rediculosly rude.


Alot of them are on here also :wink:

and i hate to brust bubbles, but you really shouldn't bash breeders, eps ones that breed good horses, when you where going to do the same with your not-so-decent confo mare. 


She was banned on HGS, which is why she got on the bunny trail and skiped on over here i would guess. If you have time, you should go and read the other threads, just to see why kind of stuff she will *try* to dish out next. :-|


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## KristinJ (Dec 24, 2009)

I think it depends on what type of work you do with your horses. Here are a few perspectives.

Leisure Rider - wants a nice quiet horse to have fun with. Maybe rides a handful of times a month. If I were them I would rescue.

Racing Trainers/Owners - Obviously most of the time you cannot rescue one and bring back to full race training. So breed. Most also have mares they used to race that are now retired so they will breed those.

Competitive Riding - Might need/want a registered horse. So may need to breed to prove lineage. Also might want a younger horse and bring up in the training. If you are a lower level competitive rider than rescuing can be an option aswell. 

As for me, I took in an aged gelding that was over used as a lesson horse. I also bought a young yearling from a breeder. I was going to adopt but the fees were outrageous and it was difficult to find a place that wasn't crazy with paperwork and rules. Must be within 50 miles, will NOT sign horses over, has the right to take the horse whenever they please if they feel like I am not taking proper care of said horse. To me buying my yearling was way easier, I know he is sound and sane. 

Now, my next horse .. I will probably rescue. I bought the yearling because he will be my all around show/pleasure horse. I wanted a horse that was not scarred (both physically and mentally). However my next horse will probably be a rescue.


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## KristinJ (Dec 24, 2009)

Ohh I Just read pulling from auctions. No, I will not. First all I went to ONE auction i my life. I didn't stay for the horse auction part (they had items before they auctioned the horses). It was the saddest place I have ever stepped foot in. I don't think I would be able to emotionally handle it and myself. I would end up with 100 horses and no where to put them .. seriously I would. I am getting upset just thinking about that day and it was years ago. As I write this though ... I want to go to an auction and rescue one lol! It's just so hard to pick one and leave the others =/

And barnprincess, you really did want to breed your aged mare, for who knows why and even if you decided you no longer do you still DID, and that is how many people DO feel. No, it's not right but don't put others down for feeling that way when you felt the exact same way about your mare.

Personally I don't like mares, and will probably never own one, so I will have no urge to breed haha.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

> and i hate to brust bubbles, but you really shouldn't bash breeders, eps ones that breed good horses, when you where going to do the same with your not-so-decent confo mare.


LOOOOOLL. i didnt BASH any breeder...


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

barnprincess said:


> IMO a lot of 'breeders' arent breeders. they are muny hungry and dont care 100% about their mares well being in the long run.
> so WHY do you, or would you breed over rescuing a living breathing in need of help horse rather than bringing in another life to this moneyless world to just possibly end up at auction ?
> .


Forgive my own opinion but that sounds like bashing breeders to me.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

well then you need to re-read. i said *A LOT* of breeders. not all.


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

I know most people will probably get their underwear in a knot, but if I had to choose between picking up a may-be half-crazed horse that had to be _rescued_ because he'd gone _batty_, as opposed to a new slate, I think I'd just start over and breed my own. No sense in getting a half-crazed horse that needs $2,000 worth of training just to make it touchable again. Now, I would never ever breed this horse myself. I would find someone who knew what they were doing and buy their baby. 

However, if I knew for SURE (and I stress that: SURE) that this horse was sane and only had a few minor things to get over, I'd consider the rescue. But ONLY if he was 95% sane. I know an ex polo-pony rescue and love her to death. She has a few things to work on, but I know she will be a great horse with time.

But to get around it all, why not just buy a completely sane, nice horse off Horsetopia? I know I have. Several times.


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

Alright but look at the second part which to me sounds like you're calling breeders selfish for breeding when there are other horses in auctions which are most likely unsuitable for certain things whereas breeding for certain things means you're far more likely to get it.


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## thunderhooves (Aug 9, 2009)

Did you by chance change your mind on HGS because of what they told you? In all honesty I think your lying about your age. 22? I wouldn't ever guess it. The thing is that you DID want to breed your mare, and now you don't, but you remember when you did want to, don't you? I didnt vote, because I don't do either. We have 1 horse rescue within 2 hours of us, and an auction 3-4-5 hours from us. I don't breed my gelding(lol), but I'm sure many of us have recued horses by buying them from bad situations.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

I ride in a very specific discipline that needs a well bred horse in order to compete in the higher levels. For this reason, I would be much more apt to buy a foal or young prospect bred for dressage, than to rescue something.
Were I just a pleasure rider, I would probably "rescue". In fact, one of our horses is a bit of a charity case and we bought him to give him a good home for life. The fact that he is also KWPN and a lovely schoolmaster is a bonus.
I think the issue with backyard breeding is that everyone wants a little foaly and they don't think past when it's born and is cute. Then this trickles upward into the world of breeding performance horses and especially right now, no one is willing to pay for the well bred, high end horses because they can get something almost as good for half the price. But "almost as good" unfortunately means that these horses are not as sound, or unable to perform at the higher levels and so even in performance sport, we end up with unwanted horses. 
It is really really tough to control this and I personally think that we need better licensing and breeding programs so there are fewer crappy horses floating around. The not so good thing is that this will drive the prices of horses up. But it could curb the unwanted horses problem.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

> Did you by chance change your mind on HGS because of what they told you? In all honesty I think your lying about your age. 22? I wouldn't ever guess it. The thing is that you DID want to breed your mare, and now you don't, but you remember when you did want to, don't you? I didnt vote, because I don't do either. We have 1 horse rescue within 2 hours of us, and an auction 3-4-5 hours from us. I don't breed my gelding(lol), but I'm sure many of us have recued horses by buying them from bad situations.


11.30.87 is my bday if you must know. so yes i am 22.. Seriosly no reason to doubt my age. I changed my mind because shes 17 and dosen't need that stress after the last a-hole bred her 10 times. Yes i want to breed her. But i wont.. and am not going to . end of story this post is not about ME or my choices. ive made my choices.


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## 1dog3cats17rodents (Dec 7, 2007)

I personally wouldn't breed (I don have the desire to fork over money and time for something I can't ride for 3 years)

But absolutely buy from breeder! I don't want a poorly conformed, old/young, scrawny, poorly trained, and/or abused animal, nor do I want to search through the masses and hope to possibly find a decent one.. I want a well trained, well bred, excellent conformation animal with no past history.


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## Snowkicker (Dec 23, 2009)

I agree that It should be dealt with on a horse by horse basis. It depends on level of use, temperament, the owners riding, training and caretaking abilities. Right now if I needed a young horse I would have several hundred to look at in the area that would range from free to thousands of dollars. There are so many available I would not find it necessary to breed. 

The three geldings I own now are 1. the product of an accidental breeding I purchased as a foal. He is the most intelligent, sturdy, and healthy horse I have ever dealt with. 2. A gelding who was 400# underweight when I rescued him from a horrible neglect situation. He is kindhearted and tries hard, but will never be able to be more than a light duty trail horse because of the damage done to him. 3. An almost two year old, I bred myself using a sturdy quarterpony mare and a beautiful but overly linebred paint stallion. The result a hardy little sane horse with a little flash. That I will be able to use for a multitude of purposes, and who until the day he passes I will be completely responsible for. 

I do not plan on breeding again. There are so many things that can go wrong and I could not stand selling the horse to someone who did not value and use it. Three horses are all my husband and I can use regularly. I don't believe horses should be pasture pets. I think they should be used, not collected. I personally like a hardy crossbred gelding. Justin Morgan, and many of the founding quarter horse Stallions were of unknown breeding, but they could get the job done. That is why they were bred. 

That is just my own preference though. I don't have anything against those that use purebreds in breed related competition. I also have a great deal of respect for those that concentrate on preserving rare breeds of horse.


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## thinktwice (Dec 26, 2009)

Lis said:


> Forgive my own opinion but that sounds like bashing breeders to me.


Thankyou


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## lacyloo (Jul 1, 2008)

thunderhooves said:


> In all honesty I think your lying about your age. 22? I wouldn't ever guess it. .


Dont feed the trolls ! :wink:


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

Was thinking the same thing...


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## thunderhooves (Aug 9, 2009)

Didn't mean to feed the trolls. Just saying something. But seriously, everyone should know better than to post a thread titled "breeding debate" in the breeding forum. It's bound to start lots of arguments.


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## lacyloo (Jul 1, 2008)

thunderhooves said:


> Didn't mean to feed the trolls. Just saying something. But seriously, everyone should know better than to post a thread titled "breeding debate" in the breeding forum. It's bound to start lots of arguments.


 lol I didn't mean just you, if we ignore them, they will starve.(they eat attention) 

I ment to add, I agree with you about the age thing. :?


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

thunderhooves said:


> Because i don't breed( *last time I checked my gelding couldn't get pregnant or be a stud*), and I havent found anything I like at rescues, I bought.


You should keep trying though! Lol!

I agree, I've been in local rescues number of time helping out (not to look for horse), and while I love horses and feel sorry for them there were very few I'd adopt myself. My paint came from really bad BYB place, but I _bought _her (cheap, yes, but NOT from the auction and NOT from the official rescue, even though I still consider her as true rescue considering what happened to her).


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

hahaha dont make me scan my ID . i'll letcha think what you want though. any way, back on topic.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Then this trickles upward into the world of breeding performance horses and especially right now, no one is willing to pay for the well bred, high end horses because they can get something almost as good for half the price. But "almost as good" unfortunately means that these horses are not as sound, or unable to perform at the higher levels and so even in performance sport, we end up with unwanted horses.



This is not true at all. At least not at the upper levels of reining. Prospects and even well trained well bred horses are holding their value quite well.


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## 1dog3cats17rodents (Dec 7, 2007)

nrhareiner said:


> This is not true at all. At least not at the upper levels of reining. Prospects and even well trained well bred horses are holding their value quite well.


I agree, even in the 10k+ range, the market isn't too bad. The lower priced (under 5K) market seems to be suffering, but when I was horse searching in the 20K the market was fine. People where I ride have bought/sold several nice horses over the last few months and they say the markets doing just fine!


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Ya when you get up into the higher end horse it cost too much to train them so people are not going to skimp on the horse to begin with. It would be a wast of money 95% of the time.


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## KristinJ (Dec 24, 2009)

nrhareiner said:


> Ya when you get up into the higher end horse it cost too much to train them so people are not going to skimp on the horse to begin with. It would be a wast of money 95% of the time.


Agreed!!


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## crimson88 (Aug 29, 2009)

Both breeding can be right, and rescuing can be right. 

I am a very close friend of several very large non profits rescues in our area. I have done some rescuing and fostering for them too. Yes, many of the horses you see are avaerage and run of the mill with no papers or blood lines, but you would be very suprised to see some of the horses that do get surrendered. There is some very nice registered horses available and broke horses. These rescues don't strap you down to contracts that you can't do this and that with the horse. Infact the only rescue I know that would do that would probably be the Humane Society (but that's just in our area). You have to be careful for those "rescues" that aren't really rescues though...You know, the rescues that should have there own horses rescued by a real rescue....

I won't even start on breeders. I could write 40 paragraths easily....Theres breeders that breed horses to be future rescue horses and breeders that acually have a brain and some common sense.


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## Kentucky (Aug 2, 2008)

That is well said crimson88


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## HollyLolly (Dec 25, 2009)

I would personally prefer to rescue, however, horses for sale can cost a lot, and horses from rescue centres can have problems (big, mental problems that can take a long time to work the kinks out of!) so having the chance to have a baby where you can start from scratch can be a plus. But you can get foal for cheap where you can still work from scratch, so to be honest, it's really to each their own


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## Luce1987 (Dec 29, 2009)

I have rescued horses and bred my own, there are situations where rescuing is simply not viable, if you want a really good horse you either spend a lot of money or breed your own. Having a horse from scratch out of two good parents is a hugely rewarding experience and has thus far presented far fewer problems to me than I have incured from buying horses that other people have ruined first and fixing them. On the otherhand if you don't have a suitable mare, the experience, time, money and aren't prepared to dedicate a good portion of your life to your foal don't bother. The problem lies with too many unneeded horses, In the English market you can pick up TB's and young native ponies cheaply because everyone breeds them and not many people ride them but sure-footed sensible, safe, good looking cobs always fetch a good price and are in great demand. So if you meet the criteria and are looking to keep the progeny go ahead, if you are going to try to sell it think again it is very unlikely to be worth while.


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

I would personally rather breed for several reasons. 

A) You know what you are getting (i.e. the parentage and the records of the mother and father)

B) You can train it the way you want to

C) the experience I had with my rescue was not a positive one. Of course, this doesn't apply to all rescues but I guess he just soured me to getting another one because of his severe issues

I have a very nice TB mare that I plan on breeding in the future (she's only 6) to a TB or a Warmblood. We've already been contacted by several stallion owners who want to breed to her because of her excellent conformation and abilities. I'm looking forward to playing matchmaker for her  Her name is Nancy Drew if anyone wants to take a look at her in my virtual barn


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## xilikeggs0 (Sep 14, 2008)

Let me put it this way: I'd LOVE to rescue a horse if I had the time and resources. I see horses at the auction going for as little as $100 for a broodmare with a colt at her side. I regularly see donkeys go for $5. But I'm about to be in my last semester of college and I work full time. I see my horse for an hour or so a day, and she's low maintenance enough that it works out. I couldn't handle a rescue that needed to be worked regularly and needed lots of attention. I just rode my horse today for the first time in months, and I had trouble getting her lazy butt to trot.

Breeding her, on the other hand, would not only give me a horse that's pretty much guaranteed to have a good personality, good conformation, and good mind, it would also give me another 3-5 years to get my life settled before I need to worry about any serious training. Not to mention the fact that it would probably cost about the same as rehabbing a rescue in the long run.


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

xilikeggs0 said:


> Breeding her, on the other hand, would not only give me a horse that's pretty much guaranteed to have a good personality, good conformation, and good mind, it would also give me another 3-5 years to get my life settled before I need to worry about any serious training. Not to mention the fact that it would probably cost about the same as rehabbing a rescue in the long run.


im not saying you said you were going to run out and breed your mare or anything, so dont take this the wrong way, but i disagree with you here. foals need a lot of attention and time in training even when they are young, especially to have a solid horse when you want to start serious training. im not saying it cant be done with a foal who hasnt been handled before, but it makes a big difference in a horse. but thats my opinion. i rely on a lot of work with foals at a young age (from the minute they hit the ground actually) to get the results i really appreciate in my young ones. 


that being said lol.....

i breed. and i enjoy breeding. i have never rescued. will i in the future? maybe. but right now, no. my horses that are bred (we have 2 breeding mares) were great racehorses, and have very very very good bloodlines. both my mares have awesome conformation and their will to race is beyond many others i have come across. we breed to race. we have had 3 foals, 2 fillies and a colt, and my mare is in foal with her last foal. and this will be all the breeding we will be doing. why? because everytime you breed you take a chance. ive had 3 successful goes at it so far *knock on wood* and im going to cut my losses and quit. this last breeding cost $7,500 to one of the top studs in america, Artiscape. i had to go through an application approval and everything. so its not like im breeding crap to crap, i COULD have bought one for that price, but i know better of what im getting with my mare. most mares in the racing industry are nothing of racehorses, they breed them though because they have a silly belief that the foal will get most everything from the sire, that the mare is really no factor.... UNTRUE!!


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## LolHorse (Dec 28, 2009)

There should definitely be restrictions on breeding...Most horses in need of rescue (other then racing horses), are bred poorly (please no offence!) by people wanting to make some money. The peson ends up poor because no one wants to by there less then wanted horses the horses end up starved and untrained, some die, some rescued and live happy lifes as compainins, show horses, or trail horses, or unfortantly bond for slaughter!
I can't tell you how many stallions out there need to be gelded.. (sigh) Backyard breeding is definitely a huge proplem, and should be less common!

I think breeding should be a privledged..And you need a licence to breed. I know it would be one huge pain in the butt, but it would benifit EVERYONE and the horses!


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

I completley agree with the licensing


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## 1dog3cats17rodents (Dec 7, 2007)

The problem I have with licensing to breed is that would cut out people with a nice mare who want to breed to a nice stud for a personal foal. Its not uncommon for people to give their show horse a year off to breed to a really nice stud for a foal the owner might otherwise not be able to afford.

Plus, the same idiots who breed their crappy horses are the same ones who would ignore the license


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

> Plus, the same idiots who breed their crappy horses are the same ones who would ignore the license


well thats where the laws would come in.. if caught breeding you could be fined ,have youre horses taken away , banned from owning etc. some times the penalties are not worth the risk to some. yes some will still do it but it'll cut back a LOT of backyard pointless breeders/hoarders.


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## wannahorse22 (Dec 27, 2009)

If you are going to breed a horse, make sure it WILL get a home.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

well thats part of this threds long debate horse22. A lot of breeders who are reputable sell them. Some keep a tag on where the go and some don't. Most of the foals that are $5000 + NORMALLY don't end up at the auction. But theres always a chance that that person will hit a hard sppot and they'll have to sell/give up the horse.

The less reputable breeders try to sell / keep / give away theirs , where most commonly those are not the well bred ones , and those are most of the ones you see at the auctions. 

Although ive seen show quality horses at the auctions. Some of the rescues here have a lot of nice horses that have gone into show careers sucessfully. Every week at the auction is different. 

I dont know if any of you knew this but EVERY kill pen horse at camelot has been pulled 6 weeks in a row. A ton of ppl here(long island and PA) have been going each week and taking what ever is left regardless if it's lame or not. And each of them have gotten awesome homes, or are still being re-habbed =] . When we build our home & barn i plan on saving one - three horses a month and adopting them out. Its hard to pick the ones who would get a good home. Thankfully all of the one's i have pulled have gotten forever homes and are all rideable. =] 
im babbling now.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

The thing is who licenses these breeders??? Each breed and each line is different. So having one person or registry do it would not work. Leaving it up to each registry would also not work as again especially in AQHA APHA and other stock breeds they have different lines that work well in different events. So saying one horse or one breeder is good or not would exclude good breeders/horses and probable let bad ones in. Plus you take out the compitition.

When it comes down to it the free market will reign. It always has. Good horses hold their value and those breeders make money and keep breeding qualtiy horses. Bad breeders with bad horses do not make any money and over time stop. However I will say that breeding is about the only business that you see people keep doing it and loosing money. Never could get that.

Also again who enforces the rules??? The governement??? REALLY they can not enforce themselves. Hate it when they try and enforce crap like this. That is not the Goverements job.

Also at least for me. Why should I be made to fork out even more meny. Right now above and beyand the money it cost to put a foal on the ground I have anouther $700 in fees. Again this is what good breeders do to make their foals marketable. So why should I have to put even more into a foals which would not make it any more marketable???


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

the licensing of breeding is never going to happen. while its a nice dream, not only for horses but dogs and other animals as well, its impossible. thats like trying to license humans for reproduction. while its a great dream, its not going to happen.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

Licensing would have be done by the state not breed. would be much easier. and it should have to be renewed every 2 yrs. drivers licenses are $80 to renew so breeders licenses should be about the same. just IMO


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

barnprincess said:


> Licensing would have be done by the state not breed. would be much easier. and it should have to be renewed every 2 yrs. drivers licenses are $80 to renew so breeders licenses should be about the same. just IMO



Again who with in the state agency would do this??? How knowledgeable are they about different breeds and disciplines??? Who is going to pay for this??? Will it come down to have more money???? Will the tax payers have to pick up the rest of the bill???

What makes them better then the market to pick what is good breeding stock and what is not??

Also if all you need in the $$ then that will not control quality. Again I spend on average anouther $700/foal to add to their marketability. SO why should I have to pay out anouther $100 or so??

Also for a Class D license the average cost is about $25-$30. 

Again if people who could not even brake even when breeding would stop you would not have this much of a problem.

Breeding needs to be a business. If you can not make a profit then you need not to be breeding.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

here in NY its $80 to renew your license. i just renewed mine. registration is over $200 as well.




> If you can not make a profit then you need not to be breeding.


1/2 the breeders out there dont make a profit as they dont breed quality horses. so with that said a LOT of people should NOT be breeding.

and if another $100 a year to 2 years is going to make or break you...you shoulden't be breeding. i didn't say per foal . theyd prob have to do per breeder as in farm owner. not per horse thats being bred lol.


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## thinktwice (Dec 26, 2009)

Puting licenses on breeding is like putting those dont drink and drive signs at the gas stations. 

People see it, know there not sposed to, but yet, there still gonna do it!


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

and you get punished... correct ? so how stupid are those people. VERY.


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## thinktwice (Dec 26, 2009)

Yes, but how many people get killed caused by drunk drivers each year? How many of those drunks have had previous DWIs? 

How many people drive drunk each day and dont get caught?
You could breed, and not get caught. Theres no way to check each and every farm...


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

No but it would help cut back..

if they make the penalty like loosing your right to own horses, or a hefty hefy fine. people, well most, would think twice.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

barnprincess said:


> here in NY its $80 to renew your license. i just renewed mine. registration is over $200 as well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No anouther $100 would not brake me. However I have already put $55K give or take a bit into each of my show mares. Then anouther $5K-$10K in just breeding expenses to get the foal on the ground. Then anouther $700/foal to make them even more marketable. On average depending on the stallion used I get $20K+ for a foal. So why should I get lambed into the same area with those who are breeding crap?? Why should I be punished for those who do not look at breeding as a business and breed crap???

If you are breeding good horses you will make a profit. It is not hard. If you can buy a foal for less then the cost of breeding then what dose that say about what the foal is??? Or what you are breeding???


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## LolHorse (Dec 28, 2009)

I think with the lincensing, it should be $100 for *2 years*. 
The state would have to hire some horsey people that know there stuff and send them out to people's breeding farms that want to breed and need the lincensing to check for the horses health and well being, horses must be of a decent quality too (no major conformation flaws). If the stable/farm/ranch passes then there allowed to breed for 2 years, then when the 2 years are up another government hired horsey person would come back to the farm and do another check up, so on and so on. 

Now for the "I have one mare an I want one foal only, nothing else" it should be $50 dollors for that one breeding, but the person still goes through the entire process above. 

Sure it has it's flaws. Ir


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

barnprincess said:


> No but it would help cut back..
> 
> if they make the penalty like loosing your right to own horses, or a hefty hefy fine. people, well most, would think twice.



Just like now the only people who are cutting back are the ones who are responsible.

Responsible people do not drink and drive. There are people who will take you home if needed you just need to be responsible to get that all lined up.

Looks only keep honest people out. I am sure you have heard that one before. If some one wants to do something they will do it.


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## thinktwice (Dec 26, 2009)

barnprincess said:


> No but it would help cut back..
> 
> if they make the penalty like loosing your right to own horses, or a hefty hefy fine. people, well most, would think twice.


"_if they make the penalty like loosing your right to own horses, or a hefty hefy fine. people, well most, would think twice" _

_Possibly, this is just to compare. _

_The first fine for a DWI is to impound your car ( pay to get it back out,) they limit the hours you can drive, second fine is to take your car, everything in it, for good, you dont get it back, but you still have to pay. ( dads a cop, so i know all this crap like the back of my hand )_

_Yes, people that do it are not smart, but yet they still do it. You make something illegal and people are just going to want to do it more, no fines or anything would stop anyone. _ 

Is it sad? yes. But, its true. If we can't keep humans alive do to idoits in this world, than how can we do the same for animals?


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

LolHorse said:


> I think with the lincensing, it should be $100 for *2 years*.
> The state would have to hire some horsey people that know there stuff and send them out to people's breeding farms that want to breed and need the lincensing to check for the horses health and well being, horses must be of a decent quality too (no major conformation flaws). If the stable/farm/ranch passes then there allowed to breed for 2 years, then when the 2 years are up another government hired horsey person would come back to the farm and do another check up, so on and so on.
> 
> Now for the "I have one mare an I want one foal only, nothing else" it should be $50 dollors for that one breeding, but the person still goes through the entire process above.
> ...



Again who pays for those people to come out?? Even a $100/farm is not going to pay their salaries. Then who enforces it??? Who will pay those people. The city of Toledo dose not have enough police to even patrol the streets for normal crimes and murders. Communities all over are laying off police. So now you want them to send out people to look at horse breeders???

If people would get their emotions out of breeding and buying horses. Stop breeding b/c you want part of your mare. Stop buying b/c it is cheap and cute. Spend a bit more on a quality foal/horse then those breeding crap will stop.

There is a breeder here locally that has a CL add. They are selling foals yearling and several broodmares b/c they need room for next years foals. They are asking $200-$400 a piece. Yet they are still breeding. B/C those horses are so cheap people will buy them. They cycle will continue. Perhaps of no one bought those horses in a few years they would realize and stop or better yet up grade their stock to something people wanted.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

NY law is if youre caught drinking and driving first offence or not your locked up with bail , cars impounded and you loose your license... for min. 2 years and you then get a hearing.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

and i think this post should die down or go back to the main topic haha


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## thinktwice (Dec 26, 2009)

barnprincess said:


> NY law is if youre caught drinking and driving first offence or not your locked up with bail , cars impounded and you loose your license... for min. 2 years and you then get a hearing.


What did you do, google that? lol

There are ways to get around that, trust me. You loose your license but you also get a work premit that lets you drive to and from work...

second fine, you loose everything

And back on topic??
This is are a response to the _premit to breed thing, so it is on topic, is it not?_


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

LOL i live in ny.....there are NO work permits. they do that to enforce the law so people learn.. no car = no work = no way to make a living. thats not worth it now is it.

and idk about the licensing for breeding, its not really on topic but, meh.


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## thinktwice (Dec 26, 2009)

barnprincess said:


> LOL i live in ny.....there are NO work permits. they do that to enforce the law so people learn.. no car = no work = no way to make a living. thats not worth it now is it.
> 
> and idk about the licensing for breeding, its not really on topic but, meh.


When we went to the board a couple years back, before getting rotated into a new state, we where told there is a *chance* for a work premit in every state in the USA. They tend not to *premote* them, for that makes people worry less. 

Now i may be stupid but i'm pretty darn positive the head of police isn't :wink:

Now, back on topic :wink:


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

well a lot of people ive known , had gotten dwis and all had pretty good jobs and got no permits .. so i guess it depends on your lawyer and who you 'know' .

and yeah any way


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## Tripp (Dec 29, 2009)

Licensing will NEVER work, it's a nice idea but it's unrealistic and silly. The only thing we can do to help with breeding standards and what not is education, and being proactive within our each individual registries. If we can get the registries to be more stringent for standards, or to start testing horses or some sort of incentive for proven horses to be bred and what not... Then it MAY help cut back. but nothing is going to stop the BYB who breed absolute crap.... They will ignore everything, just won't register their horses and what not... It's unrealistic for a one stop solution...


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Here in Ohio a state with some of the stiffest laws you get what is called party plates. They are a different color so everyone knows. It also limits when and where you can drive. However yes must states do have some type of work release or allowance. If they did not then the state would have to pay for them even when they are not in jail.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

With in the AQHA last years Stallion breeding reports where the lowest they have been since the mid 70's. People are cutting back. However I think it is the wrong people that are doing the cutting back. From the prices at the NRHA sales this year. Prices are still very good for those horses. I have also seen this. Good horses bring good prices.


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## Tripp (Dec 29, 2009)

nrhareiner said:


> With in the AQHA last years Stallion breeding reports where the lowest they have been since the mid 70's. People are cutting back. However I think it is the wrong people that are doing the cutting back. From the prices at the NRHA sales this year. Prices are still very good for those horses. I have also seen this. Good horses bring good prices.


I think as long as you are breeding quality horses that are actually worth something...You will be in business... It's the BYB breeders that clog up the lower end market that hopefully will be put out of business... I think we as horse lovers can do our part by gelding horses and trying to better the breed should we breed....


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## PaintsPwn (Dec 29, 2009)

wtf how did ya'll get on drunk driving???

I've rescued horses who have very promising bloodlines and good overall confo. I wouldn't rescue anything that wasn't registered, because there's no market for a re-sell for unregistered horses around this area.

However, I will breed in the future. Either way, if it's a nice enough horse pedigree and conformation wise, and it's at a good price - chances are I'll wanna bring it home!


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## thinktwice (Dec 26, 2009)

PaintsPwn said:


> wtf how did ya'll get on drunk driving???
> 
> !


compareing things ;-)


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

not to start anohter off topic convo but theres a lot of un-reg horses here who go for over $5k because of their talent/training... reg. isnt everything to everyone. i couldent care less about a horse being reg. to be honest. every ones OP is diff on that though.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

barnprincess said:


> well thats where the laws would come in.. if caught breeding you could be fined ,have youre horses taken away , banned from owning etc. some times the penalties are not worth the risk to some. yes some will still do it but it'll cut back a LOT of backyard pointless breeders/hoarders.


 
So exactly where in the constitution does it say that the government has the right to regulate animal reproduction. I don't know about the peoples republic of new york but in my state they have far far more important things to worry about. Maybe a better solution would be to open some state inspected slaughter houses and get rid of some of the excess horses.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

well here, and in many states, if the ASPCA or humane asso. takes any animal from an irresponsible owner (they make them sign them over or they just sieze them) they are not allowed to ever have that said type of animal again..most of the time anyway esp if they have been siezed from previosly.


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

barnprincess said:


> here in NY its $80 to renew your license. i just renewed mine. registration is over $200 as well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


still, people drive without licenses all the time... whats going to stop people from breeding then?

also i have a HUGE problem with it being said that if you arent making a profit you shouldnt be breeding. if you understand what it takes to breed cost wise, you would understand why a lot of people dont make money breeding. same runs true with good dog breeders. sure you can be breeding show quality dogs with low chance of health problems, but all the health testing, vet visits, etc. takes right from that profit youre going to get. you think you can breed 2 good horses and have a good foal sold for a large amount of money to cover your costs? most likely not! people want ESTABLISHED sires and broodmares, in order to establish, the first foals they produce arent going to sell for much.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> So exactly where in the constitution does it say that the government has the right to regulate animal reproduction. I don't know about the peoples republic of new york but in my state they have far far more important things to worry about. Maybe a better solution would be to open some state inspected slaughter houses and get rid of some of the excess horses.


 uh you obv. didnt read this whole thing.. we were talking about the rules they SHOULD make if they make ppl get licenses to breed.


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

barnprincess said:


> well here, and in many states, if the ASPCA or humane asso. takes any animal from an irresponsible owner (they make them sign them over or they just sieze them) they are not allowed to ever have that said type of animal again..most of the time anyway esp if they have been siezed from previosly.


 and it doesnt mean they wont do it anyway!!! sure there is a risk of being cought... but people take those chances.... what about hoarders? they dont just stop because they signed a sheet that said they had to... you think their animals are spayed and neutered? that contributes to breeding too....


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

barnprincess said:


> uh you obv. didnt read this whole thing.. we were talking about the rules they SHOULD make if they make ppl get licenses to breed.


 but it will never happen, its NOT POSSIBLE


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## PaintsPwn (Dec 29, 2009)

Oh my God! Please stop text speaking!

You live in a different part of the country, where 'warmbloods' run rampant. I live in an area where Stock Horses are King so yes, registration DOES mean a lot where I live and it's a key factor in finding a home and raising the value.


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

barnprincess said:


> not to start anohter off topic convo but theres a lot of un-reg horses here who go for over $5k because of their talent/training... reg. isnt everything to everyone. i couldent care less about a horse being reg. to be honest. every ones OP is diff on that though.


 you say 5 K like thats a lot of money... its not. where i come from thats a CHEAP horse. 10k is a moderately good horse.... i just payed $7,500 to breed my mare to a stud.... so if i sell a foal for 5k... im not making ANYTHING


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Fortunately most of the country isn't run by facists. The ASPCA is not a government organization so they would not be allowed to take any of my property. Maybe your state ought to worry more about the incidence of illiterate HS students in NYC public schools or the jobless rate rather than skinny horses. If slaughter horses were worth a couple hundred dollars like they used to be then people would have all the incentive they need to get rid of horses they can't afford to feed.


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## FGRanch (Feb 9, 2008)

Good breeding is in the eye of the beholder....

The Black Stallion Paint Alot of people think that this colt was well bred. I don't. And yes I owned him...so I'm sure it's okay for me to post this. 

In some situations I'd rather rescue in others I'd rather breed. 

If I need a fun family horse, a good trail buddy, a little ranch gelding then I'd rescue. 

If I needed my next reining prospect then I would definatly breed. 

Some of you say you've rescued "good reining" horses out of the meat pen. Lets see pictures and pedigree info and we will see if they are what I considerd to be a good horse. If I'm gonna spend thousands and thousands of dollars on a reining prospect (training fees, etc) then it's not going to be a crap shoot. I'm gonna buy the best breed horse that I can find, and you just don't get horses like that in the meat pen.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

AlmagroN said:


> but it will never happen, its NOT POSSIBLE


 
lol you cant say never, and not possible. a lot of things in this world were reffered to as not possible and they are now. It takes time and it takes a lot of petitions, meetings and so fourth. if it were voted upon it would win hands down.. there are more ppl against it than for it i think anyway. not saying that as a statistic.




> you just don't get horses like that in the meat pen.


i did.... i got 4 ... one was a dun qh.. who reins pretty dang well. . maybe not top of the world showing #1 in the world.. but after 5 months of training hes great.. Hes out of work right now b.c his mommys too busy working to afford him and her bills. but its the point that when ppl say you cant or wont get show horses out of the kill pen, thats a lie... I got a little mix bred from the kill pen and she WAS a jumping show horse before she went semi-lame from not being cared for after she was sold. The other 2 i got that same day are both misfits haha. One being my cruddy confo 18 hand mare who was bred 10 x and retired, and the other was a VERY abused paint horse whos just a trail horse now. my big mare is a great jumper and her training has come a long way .. just saying, it IS possible.. just bc they didnt sell dosent mean anything. thats like saying you wont find a pretty horse in the kill pen.. my paint is a black and white GORGEOUS floaty mover and he was leaving the next morning. 

i can show my mare... i plan on it next year when our training inproves... so bc she was in the kill pen shes not showing quality?


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## PaintsPwn (Dec 29, 2009)

There have been petitions since the age of the dinosaurs (it feels like it's been that long!), and since slaughter has been banned our little pony friends get to make a long trip up to Canada, or south to Mexico to be stabbed in the back. Congress simply has too much to deal with than worrying about the welfare of animals.

Kevinshorses; AMEN!


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

barnprincess said:


> lol you cant say never, and not possible. a lot of things in this world were reffered to as not possible and they are now. It takes time and it takes a lot of petitions, meetings and so fourth. if it were voted upon it would win hands down.. there are more ppl against it than for it i think anyway. not saying that as a statistic.


its been going on for years and years. it wont happen. its not possible to control something like that. they cant control the population of dogs, cats, etc. so what makes you think the horses will be different? no matter what laws you try to enforce there are many people who just wont agree with them and do as they please anyway without fear of consequence. you think because there are dog fighting rings broken up daily that there are not hundreds more out there? you think it will ever stop. NOPE it wont. so you can dream all you want. but it wont happen.... people have this odd theory that petitioning will fix everything....


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## PaintsPwn (Dec 29, 2009)

Let's make a petition to make petitions work!


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

PaintsPwn said:


> Let's make a petition to make petitions work!


How about a petition to create a government office of petitions to regulate all petitions!


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> How about a petition to create a government office of petitions to regulate all petitions!


 then they can petition to regulate who can sign petitions!


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

AlmagroN said:


> still, people drive without licenses all the time... whats going to stop people from breeding then?
> 
> also i have a HUGE problem with it being said that if you arent making a profit you shouldnt be breeding. if you understand what it takes to breed cost wise, you would understand why a lot of people dont make money breeding. same runs true with good dog breeders. sure you can be breeding show quality dogs with low chance of health problems, but all the health testing, vet visits, etc. takes right from that profit youre going to get. you think you can breed 2 good horses and have a good foal sold for a large amount of money to cover your costs? most likely not! people want ESTABLISHED sires and broodmares, in order to establish, the first foals they produce arent going to sell for much.



Lets see. I breed horses and make a profit. I know quite a few horse breeders who make a profit on their horses. I also know several dog breeders who also make a profit on their dogs. All are shown have all health tests done. Good dogs horses what ever will bring good money.


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## FGRanch (Feb 9, 2008)

Barn Princess I didn't start an argument with you, so lets be adults here. I don't show at local shows therefor 99% of rescues WILL NOT do what I want them to do. 

I have rescue many horses (over 75% of the horses I've owned have been rescued) so don't preach to me. 

However you will NEVER find the bloodlines I want in a rescue EVER! Simple as that...


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## PaintsPwn (Dec 29, 2009)

THEN WE CAN HAVE A PETITION TO CREATE 5,000 PETITION JOBS!!!!!!!!!!!! It's economic recovery guaranteed! 

Well said NRHAreiner.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

yes they will IF people have the money.. AMAZING show horses are NOT selling here regestered or not.. my gf who owns one of the top show barns here, just let her 17.1 tb , STUNNNING mover, jumper , 4 1/2y.o , for $800... he was orig listed for $6500... she had him up for a good 6 months and put tons of training and weight on him .. shes now getting out of horse sales because theres no money in it here..shes making double what she ever made in training, lessons , boarding and leasing.. people rather adopt then pay for one. thats just here though. good childrens horses that used to go for 6k+ arent even going for 1500. breeding isnt a big thing here at all... every one buys/adopts/goes to auctions. Theres a woman who breeds and trains out east here on the island and sells her horses for 35k - 75k and has had the same horses the past 6 yrs.. no one wants to pay that for a HORSE. you can put a down payment on a house or a nice car.. you know? to each their own and every state is different. the horse economy here on LI is and has been in the sheeter for about a year and a half.


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## Kashmere (Nov 30, 2009)

I find that there are pro's and cons to breeding horses.

I do agree with what seems mostly normal, at least to me.
That if there's a good reason to breed, Bloodlines, etc. etc., I find it alright.

I don't agree with the people going all 'It's CUTE'
That just HAS no future.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

PaintsPwn said:


> THEN WE CAN HAVE A PETITION TO CREATE 5,000 PETITION JOBS!!!!!!!!!!!! It's economic recovery guaranteed!
> .


Maybe we could get stimulous money!


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## FGRanch (Feb 9, 2008)

I said the bloodlines I want. I don't find that the reining horse industry has been all that affected by the economy... You would NEVER touch a good finished reiner for $800. Your lucky if you can find one under $10K, and they aren't even all that good...I guess if you are just starting out.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

FehrGroundRanch said:


> Barn Princess I didn't start an argument with you, so lets be adults here. I don't show at local shows therefor 99% of rescues WILL NOT do what I want them to do.
> 
> I have rescue many horses (over 75% of the horses I've owned have been rescued) so don't preach to me.
> 
> However you will NEVER find the bloodlines I want in a rescue EVER! Simple as that...


same. yes, there have been some amazing sucess storys about rescues going to the top. but some people simply just cant do that. they need a horse that will be a sucess for sure, and if ti isnt, at least wth its breeding lines it will be able to sell well. I think if my job was depending on having good quality horses to win with then i wouldnt take the chance with a rescue. I havent heard of many rescues that have made it to top level dressage, it just doesnt usually happen and if my job depended n my horses then i wouldnt take the chance. dont get me wrong, rescueing horses is good and i would if i could, but it just cant happen for me, im in the competitive dressage world and i dont have the money to support an extra horse that just lives in the pasture as a joy ride just because i thought he would be a dressage star but it turns otu he wasnt. now i don breed horses, but that is my point of veiw on things.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

barnprincess said:


> yes they will IF people have the money.. AMAZING show horses are NOT selling here regestered or not.. my gf who owns one of the top show barns here, just let her 17.1 tb , STUNNNING mover, jumper , 4 1/2y.o , for $800... he was orig listed for $6500... she had him up for a good 6 months and put tons of training and weight on him .. shes now getting out of horse sales because theres no money in it here..shes making double what she ever made in training, lessons , boarding and leasing.. people rather adopt then pay for one. thats just here though. good childrens horses that used to go for 6k+ arent even going for 1500. breeding isnt a big thing here at all... every one buys/adopts/goes to auctions. Theres a woman who breeds and trains out east here on the island and sells her horses for 35k - 75k and has had the same horses the past 6 yrs.. no one wants to pay that for a HORSE. you can put a down payment on a house or a nice car.. you know? to each their own and every state is different. the horse economy here on LI is and has been in the sheeter for about a year and a half.


around here people dont rescue, we live in a competitive (yes, the horses are still way more important to most of us) enviroment and boarding is expensive.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

It's ironic, but we have almost the reverse problem here and always have. We have such a small equine community, the people breeding quality don't have a very big market. They're still selling high bred animals, but they're being shipped out to places like Alberta, BC, Ontario and even the US. We have an ENORMOUS market for well trained mongrol trail horses. We had an Arab mare who was petrified of trails but a great arena horse listed at $2,000 (unregistered). The amount of replies we got from people willing to pay that if she was a good trail horse (which we specifically stated she WASN'T, that's how desperate people are) was ridiculous. We actually ended up having to lower her price due to her being a good show prospect because nobody was interested in her for that purpose.

Shay-la sold a 3 year old greenbroke pony mare for $2,500. She sold the other one for $1,000. We could probably make a killing here rescueing horses and re-training them as dependable trail mounts. Unfortunately, you then run the risk of them not turning out, or having previous issues that cannot be resolved easily.

Likewise though, it's hard to make money off foals. Nobody wants weanlings here, they want already trained animals. Unless you're breeding top notch Warmbloods, we have almost a zero market for foals, even well bred and registered ones. Our market is just to flooded by complete novices looking for an already fine tuned animal for sale. Unfortunately, they also don't want to pay the price it's going to fetch!

Either way, our market is one where I'm not really against "backyard breeding". No you shouldn't be breeding defective animals, but less then stellar quality will still fetch a home if worst comes to worst and you're forced to sell them as a 2 - 4 year old with even modest training on them. People WANT them. Breeding foals for money is a waste, but if you're breeding for that "forever" horse, even if things go wrong, you'll be able to find a home when s/he's grown.


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## PaintsPwn (Dec 29, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> Maybe we could get stimulous money!


We would need a petition to get the money first I think. If the car dealers can do it, why can't we?! 

There's big money to be won in reining, and everyone wants a piece of it! Hey if I could afford a 35-70k horse, I'd freaking do it. I don't need a new car if the one I have runs, and if the house is still standing there's no need to replace it.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> It's ironic, but we have almost the reverse problem here and always have. We have such a small equine community, the people breeding quality don't have a very big market. They're still selling high bred animals, but they're being shipped out to places like Alberta, BC, Ontario and even the US. We have an ENORMOUS market for well trained mongrol trail horses. We had an Arab mare who was petrified of trails but a great arena horse listed at $2,000 (unregistered). The amount of replies we got from people willing to pay that if she was a good trail horse (which we specifically stated she WASN'T, that's how desperate people are) was ridiculous. We actually ended up having to lower her price due to her being a good show prospect because nobody was interested in her for that purpose.
> 
> Shay-la sold a 3 year old greenbroke pony mare for $2,500. She sold the other one for $1,000. We could probably make a killing here rescueing horses and re-training them as dependable trail mounts. Unfortunately, you then run the risk of them not turning out, or having previous issues that cannot be resolved easily.
> 
> ...


hehehe, all of us here in alberta are stealing your show horses XD


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## PaintsPwn (Dec 29, 2009)

Makes me wanna move to Canada... and I hate the cold.


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## FGRanch (Feb 9, 2008)

Rider I get ya! LOL 

Fortunatly I'm at a point in my life where I can have more than one horse. We have 5 at the moment. Out of those 5, 3 of them are rescues. One will be my son's future riding mount (we got him when he was 8months old) the other will be my trail horse for a bit and then I will probably resell, and the last will be trained for a hunter jumper but she will never make it big I'm sure.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

PaintsPwn said:


> We would need a petition to get the money first I think. If the car dealers can do it, why can't we?!
> 
> There's big money to be won in reining, and everyone wants a piece of it! Hey if I could afford a 35-70k horse, I'd freaking do it. I don't need a new car if the one I have runs, and if the house is still standing there's no need to replace it.



Yep car is new last year. Truck only has 53K on it. House was new about 10 years ago and still standing. Barn same thing. SO Yep I am good.

If you want a good reining prospect for a good price let me know. I can work it out that you can get a foal worth about $50 K for about $15K or a bit less depending on the sire.


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## 1dog3cats17rodents (Dec 7, 2007)

People with a good eye for horses can make a killing by 'rescueing' track horses. I know trainers who can pick out a good one for a few thousand, train it for a few months and sell it for 20+ thousand! My trainer especially seems to pick the diamonds out of the untrained rubbage, lol.

But for me, a amatuer who has very little idea of what to look for, I'm willing to spend money on a horse with the breeding and/or training to be as close to a sure thing as possible.

And barnprincess, you mentioned an 'amazing show jumper' listed for $6,500. THat's cheap in my world, that might get you a completely green local show prospect, but you certainly won't be getting a trained horse for that. Cheaper horses are having trouble selling, but the more expensive market seems just fine


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

1dog3cats17rodents said:


> And barnprincess, you mentioned an 'amazing show jumper' listed for $6,500. THat's cheap in my world, that might get you a completely green local show prospect, but you certainly won't be getting a trained horse for that. Cheaper horses are having trouble selling, but the more expensive market seems just fine


 i mentioned that before. she was saying 5K like it was a lot of money for a horse, when in reality its not. if i breed a well bred horse (actually i just did.... a have a very well bred and accomplished NZ mare, bred to a top stud in America) im going to spend a lot to breed it. just cost me $7,500 to breed to that stud. now i have the cost of taking care of my mare til she foals, more $$, now i have to take care of the mare AND the foal and any vet costs, more $$ until the foal is weaned and sold (so at the earliest thats 6 months for me), or however long it takes to sell it after its weaned. im lucky enough to have my mare at my house, if i didnt.. now i have stall rent on her, and probably it will go up once she has a foal at her side. now not to mention all my time it will take for me to train this foal (all my foals are fully trained in being haltered, walked, crosstied, trailered, bathed, vistited atleast 2 times by the farrier, and fully groomed by the time they are a year old). thats day in and out work with them to get them to where i want them.


so if i haul off and end up selling this horse for 5k... what have i made? i have to sell for ATLEAST 10k to really make any of my money back, or just cut even....:-|


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

LOOL. $5k is not a price for a green horse here... $1000 is. Every states economy is different. I paid $800 for my grey mare... she sold for $6500... i got her for $800 from my friend who bought her and ended up not able to afford her and because the economy is so horrid here she couldent even get $3500.... no one is buying horses right now.. unless they are $1000 and under.

I'd never buy a horse again.. ever... im not into to showing like most of you here arguing about pricing are.. $10k for a horse, 7500 for a breeding, to me is ubsurd. to each their own.


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

barnprincess said:


> no one is buying horses right now.. unless they are $1000 and under.


really? no one? because my uncle just bought 3 horses for $10,000 each, and he is buying another for $15,000.... if the horse is well bred, accomplished, and worth the money, YES people are buying. young horses are harder to sell. therefore it is harder to make a profit breeding.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

well sorry i dont have 35,000 laying around to spend on buying horses haha. my dad spends $25,000 A MONTH keeping his house going with the bills, mortgage, car insurance , grocerys etc.


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

barnprincess said:


> I'd never buy a horse again.. ever... im not into to showing like most of you here arguing about pricing are.. $10k for a horse, 7500 for a breeding, to me is ubsurd. to each their own.


and i dont show.... and if you want to talk ubsurd, how about your other post in the tack and equip. where you bragged that you worked for the top dressage barn and got 1200 to wrap 10 horses legs.... :roll: and you want to talk about us talking about prices of well bred horses? LOL really....

if you dont buy because your horse has no competition needs, thats fine. but for those who do, well bred horses are need. i cant race a horse thats A-unregistered, and B- has conformation issues...


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

UH i never said I got 1200 to wrap legs haha. i made min. wage....

i did how ever say the BOARD was $1,200 and with that included a tack up service, in wich was my occupation.. READ A LITTLE BETTER next time


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

barnprincess said:


> well sorry i dont have 35,000 laying around to spend on buying horses haha. my dad spends $25,000 A MONTH keeping his house going with the bills, mortgage, car insurance , grocerys etc.


 really, a month? what kind of job does he have? because in order to afford that you would have to make well over $300.000 a year....:-|


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

anyway back on topic!!!

well bred horses have a purpose and a demand....


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

AlmagroN said:


> really, a month? what kind of job does he have? because in order to afford that you would have to make well over $300.000 a year....:-|


 
uh yeah more than that.. my dad owns his own buisness and its been quite successful for the 20+yrs hes owned it. Before that he sold and delt with rare coins.. coins worth quite a lot of money. i dont need to explain my familys income to any one.


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

barnprincess said:


> uh yeah more than that.. my dad owns his own buisness and its been quite successful for the 20+yrs hes owned it. Before that he sold and delt with rare coins.. coins worth quite a lot of money. i dont need to explain my familys income to any one.


 :roll: so how about you dont bring it up then?


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

LOL im trying to make a valid point that the money some ppl pay for ONE horse who will die and have no value at some point, rather than spending it on/in something worth something that has a market value for decades to come is retarded to me.. .. if i had $10000 to spend i sure as poop woulden't spend it BUYING a horse. I'd go to the auction and rescue what ever is left over , re-hab them and adopt them out. the money left over would go to there care. Every one has their own opinion but that kind of money is best spent elsewhere to me.


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

barnprincess said:


> LOL im trying to make a valid point that the money some ppl pay for ONE horse who will die and have no value at some point, rather than spending it on/in something worth something that has a market value for decades to come is retarded to me.. .. if i had $10000 to spend i sure as poop woulden't spend it BUYING a horse. I'd go to the auction and rescue what ever is left over , re-hab them and adopt them out. the money left over would go to there care. Every one has their own opinion but that kind of money is best spent elsewhere to me.


 and thats good for you. but i have no use for those horses. i have to have registered, well bred, proven horses. or else i will go broke. big difference from owning pet horses. and my work that i put into a horse can improve its value as well, as long as the horse improves in competition. my horses are tools for me to survive upon. does it mean i dont love and care for them? nope. i love them as much as i love my dogs, but they also need to provide for me.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

*Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. *











~~~~

Back to topic:

I know many horses are being given away for free, Warmbloods, TB's, QH's, Draft X's and the list goes on. I have a friend who just recieved a 17hh dapple grey Irish Sport Horse, for free because his owner couldn't afford to keep him - he's going CIC* and CCI* now.

Another was given a beautiful TB Mare, she is out performing the $10,000.00 "warmbloods" at the Hunter/Jumper barn we board at. 

Well bred horses, well trained horses are going for cheap if not free - because people cannot afford them. 

Nelson was given to me, and he was a Prelim Eventer, sturdy, healthy, strong, wooped anyone he stood against - he's worth far more than what he was being advertised for and he could woop a $10,000.00 horse in the Hunter Ring if given the chance.

A fool and their money are quickly parted. A horse is only as worth as much as the person is willing to spend. 

If I spend $10,000.00 or more on a horse, that horse had better be taking me Advanced to 1 star.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

Do you know how many race horses that earn 100,000's of dollars end up shot in the head , at auction, and at rescues, they GIVE THEM AWAY because once they use and abuse them they dont care any more.. thats the horrid truth of race tracks. they just FINALLY passed a law stating that if any race horse owner is caught sending a horse to slaughter they will be perminantley banned from EVERY track in the country.. Look how long that took to do.. Not every horse that is worth something is actually worth something, if that makes sence. injured or not.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

> Well bred horses, well trained horses are going for cheap if not free - because people cannot afford them.


THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU. im not the only one.i thought i was going crazy. My gf got a $50,000 oldenburg for free from her trainer b/c she had too many horses and coulden't afford all of them any more and she sure as poop wasent getting her 50k back for him. hes HUGE and gorgeous yes.. but marketable at the moment, no.


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

MIEventer said:


> Well bred horses, well trained horses are going for cheap if not free - because people cannot afford them.
> 
> 
> 
> If I spend $10,000.00 or more on a horse, that horse had better be taking me Advanced to 1 star.


it depends on your industry though. theyre all different. i dont know how much showing horses really makes, ive never looked into it, all i knew was you got pretty little ribbons.... :lol:

but with racing each race is a chance to make money, each horse races an average of once a week. if i have a $10,000 gelding or stud, i have the chance to make a few grand every week he races.... thats why we are able to sell our racehorses within the industry for as much as we do.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

every WEEK??? thats a lot... most horses train about every morning but only race every 2 - 3 weeks.. atleast thats what most trainers do to not push their horses.. not saying you do but that sounds like a lot to me. depends on how long the races are too i suppose.


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## Kentucky (Aug 2, 2008)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> It's ironic, but we have almost the reverse problem here and always have. We have such a small equine community, the people breeding quality don't have a very big market. They're still selling high bred animals, but they're being shipped out to places like Alberta, BC, Ontario and even the US. We have an ENORMOUS market for well trained mongrol trail horses. We had an Arab mare who was petrified of trails but a great arena horse listed at $2,000 (unregistered). The amount of replies we got from people willing to pay that if she was a good trail horse (which we specifically stated she WASN'T, that's how desperate people are) was ridiculous. We actually ended up having to lower her price due to her being a good show prospect because nobody was interested in her for that purpose.
> 
> Shay-la sold a 3 year old greenbroke pony mare for $2,500. She sold the other one for $1,000. We could probably make a killing here rescueing horses and re-training them as dependable trail mounts. Unfortunately, you then run the risk of them not turning out, or having previous issues that cannot be resolved easily.
> 
> ...


I couldn't agree with you more on not breeding defective animals, reguardless of the species. I have also heard allot of talk about hating the backyard breeders, and that leads me to one question. What is the different from a backyard breeder and a professional breeder? Other than size the size of their operation, the research they do in selecting a stud or a mare. I'm calling bull on that, those are just skills and like almost any skill they can be learned. And if I have x amount of money to pay for stud fees and if I have only one mare is easier to find one stud than stud for six or whatever it is.


"With in the AQHA last years Stallion breeding reports where the lowest they have been since the mid 70's. People are cutting back. However I think it is the wrong people that are doing the cutting back. From the prices at the NRHA sales this year. Prices are still very good for those horses. I have also seen this. Good horses bring good prices." 

There is a over supply of horses and a shortage of horses. at the same time. As nrhareiner has stated the breeders who are smart ones are the ones that seem to be cutting back.And if you put some stanards on your search for a even a trail horse or buddy, you will find they are sometimes hard to find, gained the less you are as a trainer the hard and more exspenives that becomes.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

AlmagroN said:


> really, a month? what kind of job does he have? because in order to afford that you would have to make well over $300.000 a year....:-|



I was thinking the same thing.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

idk about her but i ment backyard breeder as carless , conformationally poor, not good breeding quality, like most byb's and hoarders are. BYB can be Kind of broadly used i guess.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

nrhareiner said:


> I was thinking the same thing.


go back and READ then... lol


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

barnprincess said:


> every WEEK??? thats a lot... most horses train about every morning but only race every 2 - 3 weeks.. atleast thats what most trainers do to not push their horses.. not saying you do but that sounds like a lot to me. depends on how long the races are too i suppose.


 nope every week. its the norm. TBs race very very few races a year. but they also go for a lot more money than STBs do. and horses do not train every morning, even the TBs they will exercise daily. as far as training we train if there is a week off or so and they need a tune up. the races are 1 mile long. its about 2 min average, little faster for the more expencive horses. its really not a lot. if you exercise a STB, they will go at a slow trot/pace (whichever they are, or prefer) for eehhh every trainer has their own ways, some horses go 2-3 miles a day, others 4-5. mine typically go 3mi a day. sundays are off days, no one goes out to jog. the typically just get a little sweaty (a lot when its hot out), just enough to keep them toned and ready to race.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

every week isnt a few a year unless its only every week for a few weeks then no more.. i dont know THAT much about racing i do have some friends and relatives up at the belmont and aqeduct but i never really asked about how intense they get . My aunt only raced her horses once a month and they rode them every other day i believe. every ones methods are different. shes more a natural horse person haha shes out there but her horses have been decent. nothing to brag about but theyve done okay.

Any way, i think this should go back on topic =] . ive got some good thoughts on this thred though . very informative.


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

barnprincess said:


> idk about her but i ment backyard breeder as carless , conformationally poor, not good breeding quality, like most byb's and hoarders are. BYB can be Kind of broadly used i guess.


 personally, with horses its not as bad as dogs because they only have 1, dogs can have like 10 :shock: if youre a byb trying to breed and sell horses, i have a problem, much like the bybs of dogs. i have a HUGE problem there. if you are someone who has 1 mare and you want to breed her and shes not perfect, but the foal wont be some sort of mass train wreck of conformation and attitude, and youre keeping it for yourself as a family pet... ok, sure... but when they start mass breeding and trying to breed for profit, i have a problem


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

barnprincess said:


> well sorry i dont have 35,000 laying around to spend on buying horses haha. my dad spends $25,000 A MONTH keeping his house going with the bills, mortgage, car insurance , grocerys etc.



To have bill of $25K a month you would have to make well over $300K a year. Your house would have to be into the $5Mil. mark. Even when I have horses in training the house and all the other bills here I am no where near that. Even in the winter with higher heat bills.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

25k a month includes mortgage , groceries, car insurance ( hes got 7 cars on the road), cable, electric, the water bill, dog cat chicken fish food.... etc etc... the list goes on and on for everyday needs.... not JUST the mortgage lol..you seriosly should read before you say things you dont know about, bc i already said all this....

My fathers money has nothing to do with me.. i live on my own with no help from him. i actually am in debt with him haha.

any way.


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## Tripp (Dec 29, 2009)

barnprincess said:


> they just FINALLY passed a law stating that if any race horse owner is caught sending a horse to slaughter they will be perminantley banned from EVERY track in the country...


Just curious... where did you read this? Because i've heard NOTHING of the sorts come to be about anything like this.... Maybe I haven't heard everything, but it'd be pretty big news if it did come about...

Just curious BP, does your dad have ferrari's on the road or something? Because I could see MAYBE 9 or 10k, but 25k a month? I dunno... seems kind of unlikely... Especially in this economy...


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

barnprincess said:


> LOL im trying to make a valid point that the money some ppl pay for ONE horse who will die and have no value at some point, rather than spending it on/in something worth something that has a market value for decades to come is retarded to me.. .. if i had $10000 to spend i sure as poop woulden't spend it BUYING a horse. I'd go to the auction and rescue what ever is left over , re-hab them and adopt them out. the money left over would go to there care. Every one has their own opinion but that kind of money is best spent elsewhere to me.


That is great that you would do that. However in the end. It cost me NO MORE money to keep my Well bred NRHA NRCHA proven reining mares then it dose to keep a lame good for nothing rescue horse. Actually less for my horses. Then I can actually make a nice chunk of change breeding them. Then that goes on and on. The money invested is not wasted. I have over the years put exactly $0 out of my pocket into any of my horses. They have ALL paid for themselves. So really what is more expensive and a wast of money???? My well bred well trained proven horses or your 5 rescue horses???


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

google NYRA bans slaughter and google thoroughbreds banned to slaughter something like that i forget. i found it on liequine , its a local msg board here but its all over the net as well.

NYRA announces anti-slaughter policy - Topix

NYRA implements no-slaughter rules - The Saratogian News: Serving the Saratoga Springs, N.Y. region (Saratogian.com)


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## Tripp (Dec 29, 2009)

barnprincess said:


> google NYRA bans slaughter and google thoroughbreds banned to slaughter something like that i forget. i found it on liequine , its a local msg board here but its all over the net as well.
> 
> NYRA announces anti-slaughter policy - Topix
> 
> NYRA implements no-slaughter rules - The Saratogian News: Serving the Saratoga Springs, N.Y. region (Saratogian.com)


I think it's a fairly silly rule... but it's ONLY for New York... So it really won't hold much grip in the racing industry as the racing industry is still pretty big around the states other than in NY, PLUS how are they really going to know who sends their horses to slaughter....

However on topic... I would breed a horse over rescuing a horse.. .Actually I lied: I would never breed a horse. I simply don't have the money to put in to a quality mare, get a fabulous performance record on her, pay for the foal, health care and what not... So if I were in the market, i'd look to a quality breeder who has quality stock and the funds to do what I can not... and buy a foal from them. Much easier to me in the long end. Rescuing is nice... but in the high levels of competition, and sometimes even lower levels... A rescue just won't get the job done. They make nice play around horses, some make nice barrel horses, and most are trail horses. However every now and then you'll find a nice rescue horse that's a diamond in the rough.. But with that comes quite alot of issues.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

LOL no ferraris. not that its any bodys buisness but bc you all keep doubting things. i have a 14 y.o brother on life support.. we have nurses and teachers ans physical therapists in and out. His machines and bed and equiptment put the electric thru the roof .. his insurance isnt cheap either. My father has a VERY successful buisness.He owns a meat distribution company. Ranging from meats,frozen foods, cutlery, freezers, bbqs , everything asso. with that kind of buisness.. i really didn't want to put my personal buisness up here but some people just DONT get it. Long island is not a cheap state to live in.. the mortgage is $9,000 a month.. they refinanced from $13,000....


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

theres actually a few asso. / tracks that went with that banning.... not just NY.. you gotta google it.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

MIEventer said:


> *Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think part of that is that there is not place for these horses to earn money. I have found that when the market drops the horses who hold their value are the ones who can pay for them selves. A good mare who can compete in H/J and is very good she will hold her value as a broodmare until she proves she can not produce that. Geldings in disciplines that have no return in the show ring are hard to find a good home for at a good price. However well trained proven geldings in NRHA are in high demand. If they can haul a non pro green rookie youth reiner around even if the are in their late teens they still bring good money.


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

just a few min ago the guy sold coins :-|

anyway that law is only in effect for 3... THREE racetracks in NY.... it does NOT ban anyone from racing anywhere in the county


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## Tripp (Dec 29, 2009)

Nrhreiner... See that's the unfair thing about western riding haha. Even in the lower levels: there are paybacks... Where as in the English world.. Unless you get to the top of the top you get zero money. And the only discipline I know that has money rewards is the top jumpers. Though I could be grossly mistaken.. Though, that makes sense though why western horses tend to hold their value much better than english horses... 

Great post though.


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## speedy da fish (May 7, 2009)

xeventer17 said:


> As a general rule I'd rather rescue than breed. I am NOT, however, saying that breeding is not okay. I think it depends very much on the situation. I think the only time you should breed horses is if they have very promising bloodlines and you are looking for a horse which will excel in a specific discipline. I think that if you breed just to breed or because you just want a baby, then rescuing is definitely the way you should go.


^yes that is what I think.

I also think that a lot of ability is in the horse's soul not breeding. Breeding helps with extreme disciplines but we're not all planning pon winning gold at the olympics. horses and ponies are needed for kids to learn on and safe, bombproof horses are what some people want.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

AlmagroN said:


> just a few min ago the guy sold coins :-|
> 
> anyway that law is only in effect for 3... THREE racetracks in NY.... it does NOT ban anyone from racing anywhere in the county


omfg. I SAID BEFORE HE OPENED HIS MEAT BUISNESS 20 YEARS AGO he sold coins. do any of you freaking read??? its very frustrating to have to keep repeating myself.

and again you fail to read. google it. its not just here in ny.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

barnprincess said:


> THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU. im not the only one.i thought i was going crazy. My gf got a $50,000 oldenburg for free from her trainer b/c she had too many horses and coulden't afford all of them any more and she sure as poop wasent getting her 50k back for him. hes HUGE and gorgeous yes.. but marketable at the moment, no.



I am not buying he is not marketable at the moment if he is sound. I am not even in that type of event but I could find that horse as long as he was sound and actually work the $50k in other words well trained and competitive which a $50K horse would be. I could find that horse a home all day long for $10K-$20K with little problem. You just have to DO IT. Not sit there and say whoe is me.


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

nrhareiner said:


> I think part of that is that there is not place for these horses to earn money. I have found that when the market drops the horses who hold their value are the ones who can pay for them selves. A good mare who can compete in H/J and is very good she will hold her value as a broodmare until she proves she can not produce that.


exactly. if i were to take my broodmare to Maine, she would be ranked 3rd best broodmare in the state as far as STBs go. we have had calls from Maine to breed with their STBs because they want better stock, but we havent because if we produce bad horses with the maine stock, it drops her price as a broodmare.


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## speedy da fish (May 7, 2009)

AlmagroN said:


> just a few min ago the guy sold coins :-|
> 
> anyway that law is only in effect for 3... THREE racetracks in NY.... it does NOT ban anyone from racing anywhere in the county


so what happens to the horses that are injured? Or is that allowed?


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

> so what happens to the horses that are injured? Or is that allowed?


i'd think its not allowed. they'd have to actually home them i guess.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

barnprincess said:


> every week isnt a few a year unless its only every week for a few weeks then no more.. i dont know THAT much about racing i do have some friends and relatives up at the belmont and aqeduct but i never really asked about how intense they get . My aunt only raced her horses once a month and they rode them every other day i believe. every ones methods are different. shes more a natural horse person haha shes out there but her horses have been decent. nothing to brag about but theyve done okay.
> 
> Any way, i think this should go back on topic =] . ive got some good thoughts on this thred though . very informative.


You are talking TB she is talking STB. There is a difference and I too have freinds who breed and race STB. They do race every week. Not the same as TB racing where they do only run every few months.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

she mentioned tbs and stbs so no i didnt know she was souley speaking of just stbs.


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## Tripp (Dec 29, 2009)

It says the trainers or whatever can't... But who is really going to check up on it? I mean that's ALOT Of thoroughbreds.. Non the less, they could easily have a middle man to do it for them. But it's just a few tracks, can't find any record of it anywhere else for the moment...


Correction: Off of the NYRA website



> Any owner or trainer stabled at a New York Racing Association, Inc. (NYRA) track found to have directly or indirectly sold a horse for slaughter will have his or her stalls permanently revoked from all NYRA tracks.


So no, they wont be banned from the tracks... Just have their stalls revoked. So technically you are incorrect BP... Your on the right track, just don't have all the fact.s


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

can we go back on topic now please? really this thread has wondered very much haha. in a medeoker way i guess


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Tripp said:


> Nrhreiner... See that's the unfair thing about western riding haha. Even in the lower levels: there are paybacks... Where as in the English world.. Unless you get to the top of the top you get zero money. And the only discipline I know that has money rewards is the top jumpers. Though I could be grossly mistaken.. Though, that makes sense though why western horses tend to hold their value much better than english horses...
> 
> Great post though.


That is what I seem to see with English type horses. Some who are good safe kids horses beginner horses seem to hold a good value. Past that you do not see them hold a good return. Same with Halter horses and WP horses and such. There is no money past a certain point and most only place to show is with in the breed associations and there are only points there. So you have the cost of showing and no real return. Your breeding horses will hold their value but past that no much either. At least in most of the other western disciplines there are money that can be won.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

LOL

if their stalls are revokked how will they race their horses... no stalls = not allowed on the track .


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

and you know i never understood why ppl spend all this money for a stupid ribbon..


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## Tripp (Dec 29, 2009)

I'm pretty certain that Race Tracks allow you to trailer in... Hence private farms and what not. Perhaps im incorrect? But that's what I always thought it to be.

You may not understand, but to people it's everything, it's a sign of accomplishment. *shrugs*


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

yeah not to me.. maybe some local shows to show off our skills but to spend $50k + just for ribbons and a good name dosent seem rational to me. plus the fees to enter.. some of the shows are $100 a class.. and just for a ribbon.. idk every one is diff.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

Ok seriosly now. back on topic. start another thred if you wana continue the off topic ones . i think this one needs to die out now


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## Tripp (Dec 29, 2009)

Well if you are going to get ANYWHERE in the horse business it helps to have a decent show record behind you. Not to mention why not? Showing is fun, exspensive but it's so worth it... Especially if you are promoting breeding stock or run a business of of it.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

well yea for show bloodlines and wp stuff i think those earn money in higher classes. i keep forgetting to specify what im talking about. i was talking about jumping mostly. there are some that you get $1000 prizes end of the year i know some one who has the #1 jumping horse here idk what category to be specific. she went to hits and those top fancy shows i cant rem the names . we talked about it a few months ago. my memorys not the best lol.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

You know I do have a few ribbons from small local shows that I take my horses to to have some fun. However past that No ribbons. Just a nice little pay check and a very very nice trophy. I normally come home with more money they I left with.

I have quite a few of these. Some are still up with my trainer also. Not to mention plaques and much more.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

On top of all that. Showing PROVES your training. I can say my horse can do something but how would anyone know??? They know b/c they can pull an independent report from an association who regulates those events. The horse has been evaluated by an un bias independent source.


I can say my Golden is a very well trained dog. However how can I prove that. Well, my Golden who has 3 AKC titles before she was a year old. So I have proven that. 
This just shows what I have accomplished so when a customer comes over they can see it and I do not have to say a word.


















Same with my Corgi.


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

barnprincess said:


> LOL
> 
> if their stalls are revokked how will they race their horses... no stalls = not allowed on the track .


 not true at all


Tripp said:


> I'm pretty certain that Race Tracks allow you to trailer in... Hence private farms and what not. Perhaps im incorrect? But that's what I always thought it to be.


exactly. 

we have certian things we have to pay as trainers, lasix fees, racing fees... if its not paid they can refuse us stalls, but we can still race there. 

and i race STBs, i was explaining to you the difference of why STBs race so much more often than TBs



nrhareiner- beautiful dogs, and nice jobs on them both... and your horses!


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

barnprincess said:


> LOL no ferraris. not that its any bodys buisness but bc you all keep doubting things. i have a 14 y.o brother on life support.. we have nurses and teachers ans physical therapists in and out. His machines and bed and equiptment put the electric thru the roof .. his insurance isnt cheap either. My father has a VERY successful buisness.He owns a meat distribution company. Ranging from meats,frozen foods, cutlery, freezers, bbqs , everything asso. with that kind of buisness.. i really didn't want to put my personal buisness up here but some people just DONT get it. Long island is not a cheap state to live in.. the mortgage is $9,000 a month.. they refinanced from $13,000....


 
I have been following this thread for a while now.

While I can't prove anything I will say that your story BP is getting weirder and weirder to the point that it is unbelievable.

All through this thread the add on's you are making are stretching my ability to believe one single word you are posting. A good debate is based on facts that are STATED...not just statements made with the " I think that is what it was but can't remember or other statements that are part or totally supposition.

As far as ribbons are concerned.......well they are the product of showing one's efforts and that can lead to something far more important.

In my case 2 Horse of the Year titles.


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

Spyder said:


> As far as ribbons are concerned.......well they are the product of showing one's efforts and that can lead to something far more important.
> 
> In my case 2 Horse of the Year titles.


 which not only gives you better cridentials, but youre horses value goes up as well...  common sense


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

Back on topic..


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

sorry, but i think almost everyone has already said what they think of the topic


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

well then this should be closed discussion over.. its gotten too off topic now.


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## thinktwice (Dec 26, 2009)

i love how you say back on topic, when your not on topic half the time ethier?


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## 3neighs (Jul 15, 2008)

This thread has run its course...


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