# Finding Forrest



## Tihannah

Some of you probably know me from my journal with Tessa. She was my first horse and I truly enjoyed every moment spent with her. She really taught me a lot and was such a safe and steady partner that I really had a lot of anxiety about retiring her. I really bonded to Tess and felt like it was going to be next to impossible to find another horse that was so loving, forgiving and easy. But more than that, I knew I needed a horse that was a bit more athletic and could handle the workload of someone who wants to consistently ride 4-5 days a week and actually enjoy the work of dressage. My budget was measly for a decent dressage horse, so I crossed my fingers and placed some ISO's in FB sale groups. To my surprise, I received A LOT of really nice horses within my budget with potential for going in the direction I wanted to go, but most were quite a distance away, so I was then having to figure in traveling costs to see them and shipping as well. 

A friend actually found Forrest. She sent me his ad and I immediately thought it was a scam. 16yr old 17.1 Imported Bay Dutch Warmblood. He was advertised as 2nd level and jumping 4ft easily and the price was simply unheard of. It took awhile for the owner to respond (almost a week), but once she did, she sent lots of pics and videos. The videos didn't give us a lot to go on as most were young kids riding him terribly! Lol. So me and my trainer headed out to see him.

Just to sum it up, we tried another horse that day, a Dutch WB mare, but Forrest truly won us over. He was definitely NOT 2nd level, but we could tell the owner knew nothing about dressage and was basically relaying information a previous owner had told her. She bought him as a "husband horse" for her husband, but they were both Western riders and he did not know how to ride him at all. 

What he WAS was kind with a rock solid temperament, willing, athletic, gorgeous, sound, barefoot with great feet and without a doubt bred for dressage. Helen could not stop saying how amazing his movement was. He had natural balance and big lofty gaits. You didn't have to make him go, he just carried you. The owner agreed to a 2 week trial and delivered him free of charge the following weekend. 

I have, so far, spent 4 full days with Forrest and he has continued to amaze me. From the moment he got off the trailer, it was like he had been here for years. Nothing phases him and he is as loving and affectionate, if not more, than Tess was. Yesterday was his first night in the pasture with all the other geldings and I had no clue if he was going to be easy to catch or not, but I headed out to get him. As soon as he saw me, he came walking over. I gave him a treat for coming to me and then he graciously dropped his head into the halter without hesitation.

He needs some more weight and muscle on him, but his biggest issue right now is training. He has spent the past few years, AT LEAST, in the wrong homes. He's been ridden by children and people with heavy hands and strong bits, so he has basically been trained to avoid any contact whatsoever. It is not going to be an easy road, but both Helen and my trainer see A LOT of potential in him and are fully signed on to helping me retrain him to accept the bit. In only 4 days, he is showing good progress. He doesn't have a mean bone in his body and despite getting confused or flustered, he never gets upset or explodes. He just pushes through it. We're doing a lot of groundwork and work on the lunge and just trying to help him understand that he doesn't have to fight the bit anymore. He is forward and balanced and moves very well of the leg. Helen thinks that once we get him to accept the bit and start coming over his back, he is going to be simply amazing. Just watching him move is a lovely sight. 

So yea, I guess this is the start of another journey. Tess has settled in well back with her previous owners and we talk a lot through FB and they are sharing videos. I miss her terribly, but I am content knowing she is happy and safe. I think this journey with Forrest is going to be super fun and will open the doors to so much more in learning dressage. He is like a box of potential just waiting to be opened and I can't wait to dig in! This is going to be a lovely dance!


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## 6gun Kid

Sounds like you found a perfect situation! Good for you guys and good luck on your journey!


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## egrogan

Very handsome! Any time you want to come pull my mare's mane, just let me know :wink: He looks so spiffy and shiny all turned out!

I'm so excited to follow this new adventure. Congrats again.


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## Tazzie

I'm so excited for you! I truly think he's going to blossom with you as his rider  he's just so wonderful! I'm excited to follow this journey


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## PoptartShop

SO excited for the both of you.  Yay! He is soooo beautiful, so handsome. Definitely picked a winner! Love that neat mane. 
I am also glad Tess will be happy, safe & sound with her previous owners. Can't wait to hear all about your adventures with Mr. Forrest!


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## Cherrij

Congrats on the amazing horse


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## Tihannah

Thanks everyone! I'm super excited and every day I can't wait to get to the barn to see him! I still can't believe I found such a nice horse in my budget! lol. This is a video of my other trainer, Helen lunging him on the first day. I was so impressed with him on the lunge just because I would have to run behind Tess with a whip just to keep her going! Lol. He's just so easy and doesn't mind the work at all.


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## AtokaGhosthorse

Wow, he is quite handsome! Good luck and Congrats!


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## jaydee

Congratulations and good luck. He looks lovely.


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## sarahfromsc

I am so happy for you, Tess, and Forrest!

When something is meant to be, it is meant to be.

Enjoy this new journey!

And now I have Forrest Gump and jumbo shrimp on my mind.......


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## seabiscuit91

Congratulations! 
It must be a great feeling to start a new chapter and have found a horse more suited to your new dreams!
I love the 4 black stockings!


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## AnitaAnne

Beautiful mover! What a nice horse you found! Congratulations!!


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## DanteDressageNerd

I'm really happy for you and Forest! He's really lucky to be in your hands, I hope everything gets worked out and goes well!


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## swimminchikin

Subbing! Don't want to miss any updates.


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## Rainaisabelle

Look at those gaits Tina!!! You struck gold !! Good luck! post loads of updates and riding videos


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## Mopy

He moves like a DREAM! So floaty! You were so lucky to find him. Good luck!


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## Tihannah

Today has officially been 1 week with Forrest and I'm proud to report some major breakthroughs in his training and progress. Having my trainer, Helen, has been a godsend. She is patient and kind and is so full of ideas in getting through to him.

I haven't gotten into detail about his issue, so I guess now is the time. Lol.

We strongly believe that at some point in the past several years, Forrest has basically been "cowboyed". We know that he was in the hands of some who tried to use him for kids. He is simply too big and too strong for kids, and we at some point believe the old cowboy approach was taken and they tried to FORCE him to ride in a certain way and there was a lot of yank and shank on his mouth. He was definitely put in some hard bits as well from previous owner pictures. Despite him having an unshakable temperament and being an absolute saint, there is no doubt that he was traumatized, and as a result, refuses to take up any contact with the bit whatsoever.

Whenever someone touches his mouth in the slightest, his defense mechanism is to literally point his nose to the sky and lock his neck until you completely release any and all contact. When we went to try him, neither me nor Helen could get him to soften. And he's been doing it so long that he now has a massive bulge of muscle on the underside of his neck. Once he goes up, its near impossible to get him down without releasing all contact. At the same time, he can still hold gait, balance, and do whatever you ask while his nose is pointed skyward. But if you managed to get him on the contact, then you couldn't get him to move forward. And it wasn't like he was being disobedient. It was more like he simply didn't know how! It was baffling. You'd ask for a trot and he'd literally start doing piaffe right there in place cause he had never been asked to move forward on the contact before and he couldn't figure it out.

Now I have to admit, I was ANGRY when we went to try this horse. Angry that he was misrepresented as being "2nd level" and angry that he had been ridden so badly that things had gotten to this point. But Helen was able to see the natural talent in him and the fact that he was originally bred for dressage and every step he took showed it. She promised me that we could get through this and on the other side would be the horse of my dreams, and she would help me through this every step of the way. So here we are, a week in, and Forrest has shown small bits of improvement every day, but yesterday, we REALLY made a breakthrough.

You see, we'd lunge him in side reins and he'd do beautifully, really stretching down with no fight or fuss, but once you got in the saddle and picked up the reins, it was a whole other story. He constantly fought you about the contact and he NEVER gave up. It was all or nothing. We tried several different things - draw reins, chambon (he almost snapped it), and yes, we even tried riding him in the side reins. We didn't have a problem with him going with his head up, it was pointing his nose to the sky and locking his neck. And thought he fought you about the contact, he's never mean. He never explodes, rears, or bucks, he just doesn't give up trying to get away from the bit.

So yesterday, Helen came up with an idea. Originally we rode with the draw reins attached to the underside of his girth, but this time, she attached them to the sides of his girth, ran them through the bit and up to each side of the d-rings on my saddle and tied them there. That way, he didn't have to fight our hands for the contact and it could remain steady. We gave him enough room to bring his head up, but not lock his neck, while still having to maintain a contact with the bit. And then we lunged him and just gave him time to figure it out and get comfortable. After about 10 min he started to soften, relax and accept the contact while still moving forward. So Helen says, "Lets not change anything. We'll keep him on the lunge and I want you to get in the saddle and just sit there." 

As soon as I sat in the saddle, he started fighting again. Tossing his head and fighting the forward and I was literally touching NOTHING. Just sitting there while Helen tried to move him forward. It REALLY revealed to us just how psychologically he'd been damaged by riders on his back. In his mind, as soon as a rider was on his back, he had to go into defense mode and protect himself. :-( So I suggested Helen climb on since she was a quieter rider and I lunge her. I could have been doing something with my legs or seat that was increasing his anxiety. Helen got on and sat extremely loose and quiet and in about 5 minutes, he started to calm down and work through it again. After 10 minutes, we took him off the lunge line, but left everything else as is.

She started at the walk with him. Just giving him time to relax and work through figuring out his body in a different way. When he started showing progress at the walk, she asked for the trot. This was harder for him and he really tried to get around the contact. And then we used an idea that @DanteDressageNerd passed onto me. While still trotting, Helen leaned over and started massaging the pressure point behind his head and the top of his neck. She was just letting him go and guiding him with her seat and legs, while massaging his neck. And it worked like a charm! Totally released the tension and he started stretching down and trying to relax. It was amazing!!

After about 10 more minutes, she decided to take the side reins off him and did the same thing. Kept a very light contact, trotted, and massaged his neck. It worked wonders. Although he was still bringing his head up, with no restraint whatsoever, he was no longer pointing his nose to the sky and locking up. And once she got him relaxed enough, she was able to sit back again and use inside leg to outside rein and an open inside rein to get him to soften and come down. Just a few days ago, inside leg to outside rein did absolutely nothing for this horse, and now he was actually responding and following through! Both of us were ecstatic!

I went out again today. Helen was there, but had lessons, so I was on my own. She did help me put him back in the draw reins. We both agreed that he probably needed a few more rides in them to build consistency. We didn't attached them to the saddle though. I held them in my hands, but kept both reins long enough so that he could stretch down as much as he wanted. Today, there was so much less fight. I kept my hands steady and quiet, but firm. I used an open inside rein and inside leg and as soon as he softened, I softened. We did a lot of work at the walk and he was fantastic and at times was REALLY stretching down. At the trot, he still struggles to resist tossing his head up, but he was really trying. Old habits are hard to break! I really focused in the trot to be steady and consistent and he responded really well to it. At one point Helen yelled from across the way, "Beautiful Tina!! Good job!" 

So yes, bringing Forrest along is going to be an absolute struggle, but I gotta tell you. I truly love this horse. He has a lot of heart and a lot of try and there is nothing that would make me happier than to convince him that it doesn't have to hurt anymore and he doesn't have to constantly protect himself. And yes, I think we are really getting through to him. And there were moments today when we was stretching down that I was sure it felt good to him because he started getting more forward and wanting to stretch down even more. I'm excited to ride again tomorrow!

Here are just a few shots from yesterday. The last pic is from the day we went to try him. And that is literally how he went almost the entire time!

P.S. Some of you may notice that the saddle is too far back. I forgot to tighten the girth after we lunged him and by the time I realized, he was doing so good that Helen decided to just ride in 2-point so we wouldn't have to stop and adjust it.


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## DanteDressageNerd

That's fantastic Tina! I'm so happy you guys are working out and discovering better and better approaches to gain Forrest's confidence in contact and humans. It's a really hard thing to tackle but I'm glad you guys have him and are taking your time. He'll get it. You're already seeing some big changes. This is super exciting!!


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## falling

Oh my goodness I have never seen a horse hold his head so high! Have you checked him for dental issues? I'm so happy that he is found you and things are going in the right direction for him, and for you. He looks like a beautiful, kind soul.


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## Tihannah

falling said:


> Oh my goodness I have never seen a horse hold his head so high! Have you checked him for dental issues? I'm so happy that he is found you and things are going in the right direction for him, and for you. He looks like a beautiful, kind soul.


He had his teeth done in February, but I'm going to have my vet out this week. But judging by the muscle in the underside of his neck, this is something he that he's been doing for years. Its so strong there's nothing you can do once he gets that high. Its going to take some time to move that muscle from the underside to the top of his neck and teach him how to use himself in a different way.

And yes, he is a very kind soul.


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## NavigatorsMom

Wow, that picture of when you tried him! I don't think I've ever seen a horse go around like that. He is already looking better! I'm interested to see how you two progress.

I am curious about the neck massage/pressure point thing, I guess that's what's happening in a couple of the pictures. Can you describe it more, like where it is, how much pressure used? I might like to try it.


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## Tihannah

NavigatorsMom said:


> Wow, that picture of when you tried him! I don't think I've ever seen a horse go around like that. He is already looking better! I'm interested to see how you two progress.
> 
> I am curious about the neck massage/pressure point thing, I guess that's what's happening in a couple of the pictures. Can you describe it more, like where it is, how much pressure used? I might like to try it.


Yes! Where you see her hand in the first pic? She is doing nothing more than massaging the very top crest of his neck. My guess is it would almost be the same as massaging someone's shoulders? She said she'd seen it done on a young green horse before. Supposedly it helps relieve the tensions and gets them to relax. You could try it out of the saddle first to see. I've never done it myself, but he really responded well to it and it almost knocked the fight out of him! Lol.


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## Tihannah

I should also add a note to this because I know the use of draw reins and side reins or any additional "tools" can be a touchy subject to some people. None of the things that we have tried have been used to "tie his head down". They were to keep him from going so unnaturally high so that it was impossible to communicate through the reins at all. We also took things in gradual steps to see how he would react to them. The use of these tools has allowed us the ability to provide a solid, consistent contact that he could adjust to and become comfortable with. He is VERY strong in his neck, so trying to keep a steady hand in the beginning was near impossible as he would yank and pull constantly. The day we went to see him, my shoulders were aching the next day from him yanking at my hands and my trying to keep them steady. I also put him in a double jointed Happy Mouth bit with the roller lozenge to try and give him something really soft to work with. 

Both of my trainers feel that he is a special case, and we've seen positive progress thus far. We honestly don't think it will be long before nothing is needed because he is such a smart boy and really starting to figure it out.


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## Rainaisabelle

Looking good


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## KigerQueen

my arab used to do that. with her head THAT high too. i used a tie down for a while. she could still get her head up just no sky nose. after a while she got better. also did some CA style release exercises with vertical flexion. it was funny, once she figured out that it felt better on her back to get her head down she started riding with her nose all but dragging. maybe try some flexing exercises? at least some to help soften his neck a wee bit?


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## DanteDressageNerd

In regards to side reins and draw reins, etc Sometimes people hear a certain rhetoric with horses their entire lives and just repeat what they hear because they have limited experience of their own to speak from. Or do not consider cause/effect or analyse a situation objectively, just with the rhetoric that's been hashed out to them their whole lives. People do it with conformation and riding too, especially when they don't know what they think they know. I generally find the most opinionated and outspoken who do not listen to reason usually know the least and it's a choice at that point. I usually just drop it and dont waste my time trying to explain to people a situation when they seem bent on misunderstanding and not listening. It's a waste of energy. Don't waste your breath is a thing lol. I used to think you could reason with and explain to people and people would be willing to understand or listen but more often then not they think what they want to, don't listen or READ. Just keep on hashing out what they've told. 

Side reins can be a very helpful tool when used properly. I'm not a fan of draw reins but in a case like this it makes sense because it's very hard on their back and body to throw their head up like that. Especially when the whole purpose of riding over the back is to strengthen their "support" muscles and ride them in balance to prevent further stress and wear and unnecessary wear and tear on their joints/bodies. I've ridden several horses who through rehab in dressage became sounder with more work. Magellan (an ottb who had advanced EPM before being treated) started out very stiff and lacking some in coordination. After 6 months-1yr dressage work he was like a normal horse without the residual symptoms of having had EPM. It improved his quality of life and improved his coordination significantly.

It should be a great process to be a part of and a fantastic learning opportunity.


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## Tihannah

Thank you Cassie! And I'm definitely not just jumping into this trying to tie him down with a bunch of gadgets. I let my trainer evaluate and put the tools on him and adjust them as needed. My other trainer is normally very against draw reins and side reins, but she rode Forrest herself and couldn't believe it and agreed that we should explore whatever necessary to help him understand. She also agreed that he had the temperament to handle these things really well. I'm proud of him thus far and realize it's not an overnight fix. As long as we continue to see gradual improvement, I'm a happier camper.


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## LoriF

Congrats on your new boy, he looks like he is going to be a dream to ride. It will be fun to see your progression with him.

I don't comment too much but I still love to read about your adventures.


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## DanteDressageNerd

You're welcome. I've been there. Some horses defy convention and things aren't perfect or textbook correct but it's the path you have to walk to get there. He's going to come together and be everything you need/wanted and more. Cant exactly undo years of bad riding in a few days, it takes a while. But he seems really willing to accept new direction and I think it'll come together sooner rather than later. 

In his case I definitely get the draw reins as just setting a limit for how high he can go with his head and not at all to put his head down. Just so he can't throw himself upside down. I forgot about this but I actually rode a horse that used to do that. He was 75% tb and 25% clydesdale and he would do that and choke himself. It was ridiculous lol and my trainer fixed him and used him as a lesson horse for a while. But I agree you guys will do what is right for Forest and his education. Sometimes you have to throw the rule book out to do what is right for a specific horse. Each horse has his own manual, they didnt' all read the same book lol. And horses with years of baggage are a whole nother thing altogether because they can learn some bad habits that take extra measures an education beginning from their youth wouldn't have needed.


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## Tihannah

Thanks Cassie! You already know that I'm excited about the future with him. I feel like he's basically a Pandora's box of potential that's just dying to be cracked open!

Today Forrest went beyond our expectations and graduated out of the draw reins! We seriously thought that he would need at least another week or two, but he proved us wrong. He's such a smart boy and the pieces are really coming together. We honestly think that he was definitely doing dressage at some point in his life, but years of bad riding had kind of wiped that time from his memory. Today it started to come back.

I rode him first in the draw reins and quickly realized that it took very little of the aids to get him to soften. Open inside rein and a little inside leg and he'd soften. I got him good and warmed up and then Helen hopped on. When she got on, she decided to completely let the draw reins go slack and ride him on the regular reins only - with contact! He was amazing! He's not consistent, the sky and lock his neck. And really, that is all we wanted. NOW we have something to work with! Lol.and still likes to toss his head up, but he no longer tries to point his nose to 

Helen rode him for about 20 minutes just working through the contact, but despite what she asked, he maintained a nice forward rhythm. At the end, he was doing so well at walk and trot that I told her she HAD to try a canter. We had yet to get a canter from him where he didn't lock his neck, but she gave it a go anyways...and it was beautiful! It only took her a few half halts and inside rein to organize him and he was going like a real dressage horse! 

She then got off to let me hop on and give it a go. And I gotta tell you. Forrest is such a sweet and smart horse and despite Helen riding him as much, if not more than me, its like he already knows I'm his person. I held Helen's horse while she rode him, so when she hopped off, she grabbed her mare so I could go grab the mounting block. As soon as I walked off, Helen shouted, "He's following you!" She wasn't holding him and I turned around and there he was coming right behind me like, "Don't leave me, Mom!" Lol. It made my heart flutter a bit. 

Once I got on, he felt totally different under saddle. I had contact and he was forward! Because I actually had contact, our 20m circles were easy! I could get him off his inside shoulder and ask him to bend around my leg. It was amazing! We could change directions and he didn't just come apart and start fighting me. And I didn't need the draw reins at all! 

So yea, what a high today was. Helen thinks I should still lunge him in the draw reins so he can continue to work through accepting the contact, but doesn't feel we need them in the saddle anymore. . He felt like a completely different ride and I'm so proud of how quickly he adjusted. 

Anyhow, here are a few pics from today and the canter. He still has the draw reins on, but you can see that they are completely slack. I am giddy right now and SOOO proud of my boy!


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## Rainaisabelle

Look at him go!! Gorgeous


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## Tihannah

Had another great ride on Forrest last night. Helen was there coaching me, but she made me do all the riding this time. Boy, it was a lot of work! Lol. I'd asked the barn girls to keep him in till I got there. When I got there, as soon as he saw me walking towards the barn, he nickered at me, and all I could think was, "He knows I'm his person!"  It just tickles me to death! 

We are really still trying to figure each other out, but I think things are really moving forward well. Forrest is just so different from Tess. His strides are so big that it often feels like he's just running away with you and I have to resist constantly wanting to bring him back. With Tess, it was always like trying to push her out of 1st gear. 

We are still struggling with getting him consistent in the contact, but that it going to take some time. He really requires a soft hand and is very sensitive in the mouth. He is really going to teach me to be a very quite and tactful rider. 

Every ride with him we learn something new, and Helen is great about finding different ways to work through his quirks about the contact and bending. We worked him for quite a bit on circles last night, spiraling in and out. We discovered that if we just left him alone, and kept a really light contact, that he relaxes and then begins to work with you instead of against you. At first we thought it was better to keep his trot slow, so that we could control his shoulders and movement, but he kept fighting the consistency and trying to speed up. So finally, Helen said, "Let's just let him go. Let's see what he does." So I quit bringing him back and just let him trot, keep a very light contact in his mouth. It felt like we were totally running, but Helen said the gait was lovely. And then he really started softening, stretching down, and bending around my leg. Not only that, he was moving off my leg better, spiraling in and out. It was incredible. 

And then we tried the canter. I was very reluctant to just let him go, but he's a good boy, and listens well. Helen said, "If you get nervous, just grab mane, and use your seat and legs." I laughed at her. "Easy for you to say from the ground!" But once I let him go and accepted that I was still in control, he relaxed and we did laps around the arena and lots 20m circles and he was fantastic. We had really nice moments where he was stretching down into the contact and I needed so little aid to to turn him. His canter is amazing and much easier to sit than the trot. He is also much easier to organize in the canter than the trot. 

But most noticeable is how eager he is to please. When he would stretch down, I would give him big pats on the neck and praise him loudly and he seemed to love it and would try harder and give me more. He really is just a phenomenal ride and so much fun! It is so different riding a horse that doesn't mind being forward or staying in front of the leg. It gives you time to organize and fix things. This was SOO hard with Tess. I never felt like I could really fix things because she would never hold a gait or stay in front of my leg, you know? We'd do two 20m canter circles and she was done. Where with Forrest, he doesn't quit until you tell him to. 

So the plan moving forward is to keep him in a training level frame and reaching down and working over his back until he gets a little stronger and becomes more comfortable with the contact. As he gets better, we will start slowly picking him up more and more. All of this is so new to him, but it's like he's starting to realize that it's so much easier to do it our way. That it feels better on his back, you know? I've been doing lots of stretches with him and try to really getting him to lift his back from the ground. I think he likes it. I can't imagine what years of riding hollowed out has done to him. The chiro is coming out on Monday to give him a full work up. 

Anyhow, like I said, every day seems to get better. Oh! And I forgot to mention, we rode last night with no draw reins or extra tools and he was great! It's amazing what we've accomplished in just a week and a half!


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## jaydee

Tihannah said:


> Today has officially been 1 week with Forrest and I'm proud to report some major breakthroughs in his training and progress. Having my trainer, Helen, has been a godsend. She is patient and kind and is so full of ideas in getting through to him.
> 
> I haven't gotten into detail about his issue, so I guess now is the time. Lol.
> 
> We strongly believe that at some point in the past several years, Forrest has basically been "cowboyed". We know that he was in the hands of some who tried to use him for kids. He is simply too big and too strong for kids, and we at some point believe the old cowboy approach was taken and they tried to FORCE him to ride in a certain way and there was a lot of yank and shank on his mouth. He was definitely put in some hard bits as well from previous owner pictures. Despite him having an unshakable temperament and being an absolute saint, there is no doubt that he was traumatized, and as a result, refuses to take up any contact with the bit whatsoever.
> 
> Whenever someone touches his mouth in the slightest, his defense mechanism is to literally point his nose to the sky and lock his neck until you completely release any and all contact. When we went to try him, neither me nor Helen could get him to soften. And he's been doing it so long that he now has a massive bulge of muscle on the underside of his neck. Once he goes up, its near impossible to get him down without releasing all contact. At the same time, he can still hold gait, balance, and do whatever you ask while his nose is pointed skyward. But if you managed to get him on the contact, then you couldn't get him to move forward. And it wasn't like he was being disobedient. It was more like he simply didn't know how! It was baffling. You'd ask for a trot and he'd literally start doing piaffe right there in place cause he had never been asked to move forward on the contact before and he couldn't figure it out.
> 
> Now I have to admit, I was ANGRY when we went to try this horse. Angry that he was misrepresented as being "2nd level" and angry that he had been ridden so badly that things had gotten to this point. But Helen was able to see the natural talent in him and the fact that he was originally bred for dressage and every step he took showed it. She promised me that we could get through this and on the other side would be the horse of my dreams, and she would help me through this every step of the way. So here we are, a week in, and Forrest has shown small bits of improvement every day, but yesterday, we REALLY made a breakthrough.
> 
> You see, we'd lunge him in side reins and he'd do beautifully, really stretching down with no fight or fuss, but once you got in the saddle and picked up the reins, it was a whole other story. He constantly fought you about the contact and he NEVER gave up. It was all or nothing. We tried several different things - draw reins, chambon (he almost snapped it), and yes, we even tried riding him in the side reins. We didn't have a problem with him going with his head up, it was pointing his nose to the sky and locking his neck. And thought he fought you about the contact, he's never mean. He never explodes, rears, or bucks, he just doesn't give up trying to get away from the bit.
> 
> So yesterday, Helen came up with an idea. Originally we rode with the draw reins attached to the underside of his girth, but this time, she attached them to the sides of his girth, ran them through the bit and up to each side of the d-rings on my saddle and tied them there. That way, he didn't have to fight our hands for the contact and it could remain steady. We gave him enough room to bring his head up, but not lock his neck, while still having to maintain a contact with the bit. And then we lunged him and just gave him time to figure it out and get comfortable. After about 10 min he started to soften, relax and accept the contact while still moving forward. So Helen says, "Lets not change anything. We'll keep him on the lunge and I want you to get in the saddle and just sit there."
> 
> As soon as I sat in the saddle, he started fighting again. Tossing his head and fighting the forward and I was literally touching NOTHING. Just sitting there while Helen tried to move him forward. It REALLY revealed to us just how psychologically he'd been damaged by riders on his back. In his mind, as soon as a rider was on his back, he had to go into defense mode and protect himself. :-( So I suggested Helen climb on since she was a quieter rider and I lunge her. I could have been doing something with my legs or seat that was increasing his anxiety. Helen got on and sat extremely loose and quiet and in about 5 minutes, he started to calm down and work through it again. After 10 minutes, we took him off the lunge line, but left everything else as is.
> 
> She started at the walk with him. Just giving him time to relax and work through figuring out his body in a different way. When he started showing progress at the walk, she asked for the trot. This was harder for him and he really tried to get around the contact. And then we used an idea that @*DanteDressageNerd* passed onto me. While still trotting, Helen leaned over and started massaging the pressure point behind his head and the top of his neck. She was just letting him go and guiding him with her seat and legs, while massaging his neck. And it worked like a charm! Totally released the tension and he started stretching down and trying to relax. It was amazing!!
> 
> After about 10 more minutes, she decided to take the side reins off him and did the same thing. Kept a very light contact, trotted, and massaged his neck. It worked wonders. Although he was still bringing his head up, with no restraint whatsoever, he was no longer pointing his nose to the sky and locking up. And once she got him relaxed enough, she was able to sit back again and use inside leg to outside rein and an open inside rein to get him to soften and come down. Just a few days ago, inside leg to outside rein did absolutely nothing for this horse, and now he was actually responding and following through! Both of us were ecstatic!
> 
> I went out again today. Helen was there, but had lessons, so I was on my own. She did help me put him back in the draw reins. We both agreed that he probably needed a few more rides in them to build consistency. We didn't attached them to the saddle though. I held them in my hands, but kept both reins long enough so that he could stretch down as much as he wanted. Today, there was so much less fight. I kept my hands steady and quiet, but firm. I used an open inside rein and inside leg and as soon as he softened, I softened. We did a lot of work at the walk and he was fantastic and at times was REALLY stretching down. At the trot, he still struggles to resist tossing his head up, but he was really trying. Old habits are hard to break! I really focused in the trot to be steady and consistent and he responded really well to it. At one point Helen yelled from across the way, "Beautiful Tina!! Good job!"
> 
> So yes, bringing Forrest along is going to be an absolute struggle, but I gotta tell you. I truly love this horse. He has a lot of heart and a lot of try and there is nothing that would make me happier than to convince him that it doesn't have to hurt anymore and he doesn't have to constantly protect himself. And yes, I think we are really getting through to him. And there were moments today when we was stretching down that I was sure it felt good to him because he started getting more forward and wanting to stretch down even more. I'm excited to ride again tomorrow!
> 
> Here are just a few shots from yesterday. The last pic is from the day we went to try him. And that is literally how he went almost the entire time!
> 
> P.S. Some of you may notice that the saddle is too far back. I forgot to tighten the girth after we lunged him and by the time I realized, he was doing so good that Helen decided to just ride in 2-point so we wouldn't have to stop and adjust it.


I don't use draw reins very often but I do try them with any horse that has the desire to stick their nose up in the air and from doing that has over developed the muscles on the underside. I always attach them to the girth as you have here and do the same with side reins if I lunge in them
Not sure if it would help him but sometimes going bitless for a while also helps break the habit as its a knee jerk reaction to the riders hands against the bit no matter how light they are. You can use something like a Micklem multi-bridle and have the bit in the mouth but ride off the bitless attachment


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## Tihannah

That's EXACTLY what he has. A knee-jerk reaction to the bit. Even slight half halts. He reacts as if someone slapped him, and I have him in a really gentle D ring. It's gotten better for sure, but at times it seems the conversation is more about him softening to get you to release ALL contact.


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## PoptartShop

He looks FANTASTIC!  I am so glad he is going way beyond your expectations. Like can you imagine how you guys will be like a year from now? Or even a month?!!! So exciting.
Such a good boy. You definitely lucked out! <3 Keep the posts coming please!


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## DanteDressageNerd

That's fantastic! I'm so glad to hear a positive trend with Forest! Sounds like he's starting to take to the change in how he's being worked and starting to work it out. He's a special case for sure. It's a neat process to be apart of!


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## Tihannah

Well...today's ride was total bust. It was terrible and Helen was stumped. Forrest reverted right back to probably day 2 or 3. Honestly, I think we took him out of the draw reins too soon. Helen thinks that maybe its something else - his teeth or back. But his teeth were just done in February AND we put him in side reins and REALLY shortened them so he couldn't escape the contact, and then lunged him. No fuss or fight whatsoever. He went perfectly. You would think that if the issue were his teeth, he would do SOMETHING, but nope. And I even tested it in the saddle. I mean BARELY touching the reins and applying no pressure at all, and he'd jerk his head up and yank and fight. In case it was his back, I tested riding in 2 pt. Still fighting. After I rode, checked his back. No soreness and no dry spots under the saddle. It has to be psychological!

The chiro will be out Monday and I'm hoping we see a difference after. As of now, he's going back in the draw reins tomorrow. Perhaps it was just naive of us to think he could convert so quickly, you know? But I definitely don't want to let him continue going backwards. I mean, at one point I locked both hands on the saddle pad and just asked him to go forward into the contact and soften. He NEVER stopped pushing against my hands and REFUSED to soften and it felt almost impossible to keep the saddle pad in my grip. My arms were aching and shaking! We did this for 15-20 minutes and he'd stand firm or start backing up, but would not go forward unless I unlocked my hands. Yet we did the exact same scenario with the side reins and he had no issue moving forward! Helen said she would try to do some more research when she got home, but the fact that he will do it easily with no rider and then give you the fight of your life in the saddle is baffling.

In the end, exhausted, I gave up and just let him have the reins and we walked and trotted with virtually no contact and he relaxed and stretched down a bit. My body is definitely going to be sore tomorrow. :icon_frown:


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## seabiscuit91

Hopefully it was just an off day!
We all have them, fingers crossed it was a minor step back, like you said it'll take time to fix years of incorrect training. 
The fact you've already seen such great progress is amazing, and such a great feat to you and your trainer!
Maybe at the start he's going to need the training tools every few days as little reminders, and hopefully you can go more and more without draw reins etc.

One thing I just wanted to mention, as @jaydee stated regarding the bit.
A friend of mine had an OTTB, and it was like he associated all his trauma to the bit itself, on the ground/lunge he was perfect, but once a rider was mounted and tried to have any contact, he was a miserable mess, couldn't focus, was more worried on holding his head sky high/shaking it around just trying to evade the bit in any way.
After trying everything, she put him in a bitless and said it was a completely different horse, he was no longer so focused on this thing in his mouth that he could finally relax, accept contact, and just be at ease.

It could be something worth trying, to see if that's the pin point, and if there is no change, at least you'll know!

Good luck, you're doing so great in such a short amount of time already!


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## Tihannah

seabiscuit91 said:


> Hopefully it was just an off day!
> We all have them, fingers crossed it was a minor step back, like you said it'll take time to fix years of incorrect training.
> The fact you've already seen such great progress is amazing, and such a great feat to you and your trainer!
> Maybe at the start he's going to need the training tools every few days as little reminders, and hopefully you can go more and more without draw reins etc.
> 
> One thing I just wanted to mention, as @jaydee stated regarding the bit.
> A friend of mine had an OTTB, and it was like he associated all his trauma to the bit itself, on the ground/lunge he was perfect, but once a rider was mounted and tried to have any contact, he was a miserable mess, couldn't focus, was more worried on holding his head sky high/shaking it around just trying to evade the bit in any way.
> After trying everything, she put him in a bitless and said it was a completely different horse, he was no longer so focused on this thing in his mouth that he could finally relax, accept contact, and just be at ease.
> 
> It could be something worth trying, to see if that's the pin point, and if there is no change, at least you'll know!
> 
> Good luck, you're doing so great in such a short amount of time already!


I do like the idea and Helen says she has a hackamore I can use, but in the end, the whole foundation of dressage is to have them accept the bit. :-( I would like to try the hackamore just to see how he'd do it in it though. And also Jaydee's suggestion of riding with a bit in his mouth, but using the bitless part only. At this point, we are open to any and all ideas!


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## PoptartShop

Awww, it was probably just an off day. It happens sometimes. Try not to worry too much about it. :sad: I know it's discouraging but it happens. Keep your head up!

I think the chiro will help, maybe he just needs a simple adjustment or something to snap him back into place. Maybe trying the hackamore will help but I know you definitely have to get him used to taking the bit. 
You guys are doing wonderful so far. <3


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## jaydee

Tihannah said:


> I do like the idea and Helen says she has a hackamore I can use, but in the end, the whole foundation of dressage is to have them accept the bit. :-( I would like to try the hackamore just to see how he'd do it in it though. And also Jaydee's suggestion of riding with a bit in his mouth, but using the bitless part only. At this point, we are open to any and all ideas!


We've been through all of this with K and to a certain extent the problem still hasn't gone away. 
Obviously no two horses are ever alike so causes can differ.
I don't want to hijack your thread with our horse so won't go into loads of stuff about her but can share some things that might help. In her case we know that she's competed successfully in eventing and her dressage was good, she was working at Third Level and had been worked under the eye of some well respected trainers so its quite possible that your horse did work at Second level. 
What we don't know is what suddenly happened to change her because the owners don't know either because she was out on lease away from their property. We knew what we were buying to a certain extent.
Our horse had X rays of her entire back skeletal structure before we bought her - nothing found. We have her seen by a physio/massage therapist every month but there's nothing significant that would explain the reaction to the pressure on her mouth. Her teeth and mouth are fine. 
She will lunge in side reins that are really tight (yes mean of me I know but it was done briefly purely to see what reaction we'd get - none at all. 
The problems only start when a rider is introduced into the scenario but as she didn't mind the bitless option I can't see, in her case that its a physical thing (as in body pain) which is why I suggested you try the hackamore
You could also try different bits - I now have enough to start my own store!!


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## phantomhorse13

I will be very interested to hear what the chiropractor finds. To hear he was doing so well then backslide so suddenly makes me think something, somewhere is hurting him and that triggered his reverting to his 'safe' head-up position. You are asking him to use muscles he likely hadn't used in years. Did your warm up change from when you were using the draw and/or side reins to this last, not-so-good ride? I know for me, if I try to shorten up my morning stretching routine, I can feel the difference in my body later. Just throwing ideas out there, as I can only imagine your frustration at his regression.


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## Tihannah

jaydee said:


> We've been through all of this with K and to a certain extent the problem still hasn't gone away.
> Obviously no two horses are ever alike so causes can differ.
> I don't want to hijack your thread with our horse so won't go into loads of stuff about her but can share some things that might help. In her case we know that she's competed successfully in eventing and her dressage was good, she was working at Third Level and had been worked under the eye of some well respected trainers so its quite possible that your horse did work at Second level.
> What we don't know is what suddenly happened to change her because the owners don't know either because she was out on lease away from their property. We knew what we were buying to a certain extent.
> Our horse had X rays of her entire back skeletal structure before we bought her - nothing found. We have her seen by a physio/massage therapist every month but there's nothing significant that would explain the reaction to the pressure on her mouth. Her teeth and mouth are fine.
> She will lunge in side reins that are really tight (yes mean of me I know but it was done briefly purely to see what reaction we'd get - none at all.
> The problems only start when a rider is introduced into the scenario but as she didn't mind the bitless option I can't see, in her case that its a physical thing (as in body pain) which is why I suggested you try the hackamore
> You could also try different bits - I now have enough to start my own store!!


I'm telling you. This sounds EXACTLY like him and the things we've tried and his reactions are all the same. Helen has a plethora of bits and I have about 5 or 6, but we've tried several mild ones on him. But yes, we tried the same thing yesterday and REALLY shortened the side reins and lunged him to see how he would react. He went perfectly. And if I'm in the saddle and only hold the reins slack like a western rider, he's totally fine - will w/t/c both directions, no problem. But if I pick both reins up in the slightest, he will start resisting, bringing his head up, and fighting against my hands.


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## Tihannah

phantomhorse13 said:


> I will be very interested to hear what the chiropractor finds. To hear he was doing so well then backslide so suddenly makes me think something, somewhere is hurting him and that triggered his reverting to his 'safe' head-up position. You are asking him to use muscles he likely hadn't used in years. Did your warm up change from when you were using the draw and/or side reins to this last, not-so-good ride? I know for me, if I try to shorten up my morning stretching routine, I can feel the difference in my body later. Just throwing ideas out there, as I can only imagine your frustration at his regression.


I honestly think it was just tossing the draw reins too soon. We had the great ride on Sunday where they were still on, but didn't really use them. Gave him off on Monday. Rode Tuesday with no draw reins and there was a little fight, but we kept the reins pretty slack and just let him go. Then Wednesday, total no-go. I think it's just going to take more time to get him used to the idea of working with contact.


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## DanteDressageNerd

I wish I had suggestions but I really don't. I feel like it's something you keep chipping at it a little at a time and try whatever keeps him in a positive direction and helps him understand. Sometimes you'll take massive leaps forward and then take big steps back and then go forward again. Whatever you guys try I hope it keeps working for the better!


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## Tihannah

DanteDressageNerd said:


> I wish I had suggestions but I really don't. I feel like it's something you keep chipping at it a little at a time and try whatever keeps him in a positive direction and helps him understand. Sometimes you'll take massive leaps forward and then take big steps back and then go forward again. Whatever you guys try I hope it keeps working for the better!


I'm so jealous of your boy, Wonder, and how easy he's been to transition! ;-)


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## jaydee

Tihannah said:


> I'm telling you. This sounds EXACTLY like him and the things we've tried and his reactions are all the same. Helen has a plethora of bits and I have about 5 or 6, but we've tried several mild ones on him. But yes, we tried the same thing yesterday and REALLY shortened the side reins and lunged him to see how he would react. He went perfectly. And if I'm in the saddle and only hold the reins slack like a western rider, he's totally fine - will w/t/c both directions, no problem. But if I pick both reins up in the slightest, he will start resisting, bringing his head up, and fighting against my hands.


 This could be where they differ. 
K will walk forever on a loose rein, do things like shoulder-in, leg yield, half pass, turn on haunches/forehand etc on a light contact but as soon as you ask her to trot she's all 'go go go' and without some resistance from the rider she'd be off at speed and once she got into a full gallop I'm not sure she could be stopped at all. DH has tried to trot her on a loose rein and it got a bit worrying
Long reins didn't help her as after a few sessions in them she figured she could just brace herself and go all tense
The thing that's worked best with her to encourage her to drop her head is riding shoulder in and small circles/spirals


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## Crimson Rose

Gorgeous boy! I really wish they could tell us their stories. I used to own a exbarrel racer who didn't like being on contact at all. She wasn't as reactive as your boy, but she would push negatively against any pressure, and then try to take control. I worked with her a while on it, and no matter how light my pressure was, she never got completely better. She just flat out wasn't happy with a bit. She was an angel on the ground with a rope halter and the same bareback, so I eventually bought her a hackamore, and she was happy as could be. I never had plans of competing on her though. I hope it all works out for the both of you! <3


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## Tihannah

jaydee said:


> This could be where they differ.
> K will walk forever on a loose rein, do things like shoulder-in, leg yield, half pass, turn on haunches/forehand etc on a light contact but as soon as you ask her to trot she's all 'go go go' and without some resistance from the rider she'd be off at speed and once she got into a full gallop I'm not sure she could be stopped at all. DH has tried to trot her on a loose rein and it got a bit worrying
> Long reins didn't help her as after a few sessions in them she figured she could just brace herself and go all tense
> The thing that's worked best with her to encourage her to drop her head is riding shoulder in and small circles/spirals


Ahhh, no, you can still fully control him with seat and verbal in both trot and canter. You put him in a gait and he just stays there, turn easily and everything. It's really nice. I just wish I knew how to transfer it to being with contact! Lol.


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## jaydee

Tihannah said:


> Ahhh, no, you can still fully control him with seat and verbal in both trot and canter. You put him in a gait and he just stays there, turn easily and everything. It's really nice. I just wish I knew how to transfer it to being with contact! Lol.


 I think your job should be a lot easier then
Try the bitless because it will rule out possible pain issues in the body if he's OK in it and if it works will help you get him using those correct muscles and hopefully break the habit at the same time
The anxiety he has with the bit could have been caused by maybe a bit that was too sharp - the twisted bits are quite popular but don't suit a horse that's going to work in a real contact so that might have upset him, or a rider with heavy hands or 'busy' hands that doesn't know it can cause a lot of trouble with a horse that's got a light mouth - often a rider thinks they're light handed because they aren't gripping the reins but their arms or shoulders can be stiff and tense and that will just travel down to the mouth


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## Tihannah

jaydee said:


> I think your job should be a lot easier then
> Try the bitless because it will rule out possible pain issues in the body if he's OK in it and if it works will help you get him using those correct muscles and hopefully break the habit at the same time
> The anxiety he has with the bit could have been caused by maybe a bit that was too sharp - the twisted bits are quite popular but don't suit a horse that's going to work in a real contact so that might have upset him, or a rider with heavy hands or 'busy' hands that doesn't know it can cause a lot of trouble with a horse that's got a light mouth - often a rider thinks they're light handed because they aren't gripping the reins but their arms or shoulders can be stiff and tense and that will just travel down to the mouth


I hope so! I told Helen about your idea about the Micklem and attaching a bit, but using it bitless and she loved the idea! She has a bitless Micklem, but we gotta see if it's gonna fit his head.


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## Rainaisabelle

Tihannah said:


> I hope so! I told Helen about your idea about the Micklem and attaching a bit, but using it bitless and she loved the idea! She has a bitless Micklem, but we gotta see if it's gonna fit his head.


Love the Micklems !


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## Tihannah

Oh man! Had such a good ride tonight! Easily had to be the most consistent Forrest has been since I got him!

Put him back in the draw reins and on a whim, decided to try my old trusty beval bit on him. It was the only bit that ever worked well for Tess, so I thought, what the heck?

I got to the barn late, so I didn't even bother to lunge him first. Just got him tacked up and hopped on. And I gotta say, at first, he was NOT happy about being back in the draw reins and made quite the fuss about it. I took up no real contact in the regular reins and just set my length in the draw reins and let him work it out with himself. We spent a good 15 min at the walk just giving him time to figure it out and stop fighting with himself. When it seemed like he had settled a bit, I asked for a trot and he got too fussy jerking and tossing his head about, so I took him back down to the walk again. In the length I set, he could bring his had up to a normal height or stretch down, but he could NOT do the giraffe thing.

After about 5-10 more minutes at the walk, he was really showing good consistency and softening easily with a little inside leg or open inside rein, so I asked for the trot again. It.Was.Lovely! I was so surprised. The majority of the fight was gone and he was actually being consistently round or stretched down. I couldn't believe it. We did a few laps and then I took up a very light contact on the real reins. His fuss was very short lived and then we went back to work. Again, just lovely consistent trot work. Occasionally, he would test it and try to yank his head up, but then immediately go back soft again. He did so well at the trot, that I decided to test the canter. He did not disappoint. For the first time ever, I was able to organize him at the canter and he was soft and it felt SUPER nice! 

So here is what I figured out tonight. I think I was indeed right that we took him out of the draw reins way too soon. I think its gonna take way more time for him to get used to using his body in a different way and develop the correct muscles. By removing the draw reins after only a few rides, we left the window open for him to just revert back to what he knew.

I also think we were wrong that he is super sensitive in the mouth. Tonight showed me that his mouth is not what's sensitive. It's his **** head! We put him in that super soft happy mouth thinking it would help him settle into the bit better, but all we really did was make it easier for him to fight against what we were asking. I don't think he needs a harsh bit at all, but he definitely needed something more. I think the beval is good middle ground and after he got done fighting himself and realizing he couldn't get out of it, he actually settled into it nicely. Eventually, I will have to find something that's dressage legal, but for now, I think it really works for him.

So yea, tonight was easily our best ride and we were totally solo. I felt like we finally came to an understanding about what I was asking from him. My hope is to just continue building on this until he understands that the fight and struggle is no longer necessary.


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## DanteDressageNerd

I'm really happy you're taking positive steps forward with your boy! Keep it up! Keep working it out. Some horses do better working into a contact, some need collection to find a contact and they need more pressure to be soft or some need you to start soft before they'll be soft *shrugs* they all have their little things and some it takes a bit to figure them out and others it's readily clear. Keep it up!


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## Tazzie

I'm so glad he's coming along so well! I'm sure once he really gets used to it he'll be even more amazing! I can't wait to see how he progresses!


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## Tihannah

Chiropractor finally made it out this morning and adjusted him from head to toe. She loved Forrest and thought he was just so easy.  He was really locked up in his poll. When she adjusted it, he just went totally soft and relaxed, head drooping. I was worried that he may have some issue with his back, but she said he was only a little sore behind his withers. I think the saddle they had been using on him didn't fit and was putting pressure there. His back did crack twice though when she did the adjustment.

When I got there this morning and took him out of his stall, he looked really stiff and was moving kinda slow. But when she got done adjusting him, he looked like a new horse again. He could not have loved the electro light therapy more. I took him out and walked him around and you could see that he felt REALLY good and was really swinging through his whole body. I can't wait to see how he does tomorrow when we ride. I gave him some bute and put him back in his stall. He'll rest 24 hrs and then tomorrow, after work, we'll see how he does. Hopefully, he'll have less fight in him now that he's feeling better. 

Helen has been outta town for work, so she wasn't there with us at all this past weekend. Hopefully, she'll be there tomorrow and can see some of the work we've done. We had a really good ride yesterday, so I'm hoping tomorrow will be even better.


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## egrogan

My chiro doesn't use a lot of the supplemental equipment you described, so I have to ask...what is the little cap he's wearing? That droopy lip is a nice clue he's into it :wink:


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## Tihannah

egrogan said:


> My chiro doesn't use a lot of the supplemental equipment you described, so I have to ask...what is the little cap he's wearing? That droop lip is a nice clue he's into it :wink:


Its the electro light therapy cap. She puts it on them first and it hits varias pressure points on the head and totally relaxes them. Then she uses the two circular things to go through their whole body. The lights give off a warm current similar to acupuncture that stimulate the muscles and gets them totally relaxed so that by the time she does the adjustments, the horses are like putty in her hands and it makes adjusting easier, especially for areas that are locked or seized up. Forrest just loved it and I think if he could talk, he woulda been saying, "More! More!" His bottom lip was just quivering at certain points. Lol.

This is just a small clip, but you can see his reaction to it. I don't think he's ever experienced anything like this before, but my other horse, Tess, loved it as well.  This lady is awesome. She drives from an hour away, spends an hour and a half doing my horse from head to toe, and charges me $85. Well worth it!


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## egrogan

Love the video! So neat to see different approaches. I've had acupuncture done with Isabel a couple of times though I will be honest I didn't notice that she felt any different than she does with just the standard chiropractic adjustment. I don't think my chiro has all this equipment but I like to file these things away in the back of my head in case I ever need to find someone else to work on her.

Hope it gets Forrest feeling a little more comfortable as you continue to progress with him.


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## PoptartShop

Awww, you can just tell he is loving the chiro treatment!  I bet that felt so good! I think the electrolight therapy is really cool. 
He is such a cutiepie. I am glad you had a good solo ride, it's good you are both starting to figure each other out!


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## DanteDressageNerd

Oh boy he looks ecstatic to be worked on. He looks like he's loving it! I hope it makes a big difference in his work and helps him feel fabulous!!


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## Tihannah

The adjustments definitely made a BIG difference! For the first time tonight, I got in the saddle, and there was no fuss or fight. Since day 1, as soon as I mounted, he would go into defense mode, shooting his head up and yanking, loose reins or not. But tonight, I got in the saddle and we walked around on a mostly loose rein for 15 minutes, stretched down with no fight or fuss! I was amazed! He was totally relaxed and forward. 

I took up a very light contact at the walk and he put up very little resistance. Once we started trotting, it wasn't as consistent, but it was less about the bit, and more about him struggling to maintain his balance and not go with his head in the air. His trot is also so big, that it gets hard to maintain as steady a contact as I can in the walk. But he tried really hard even though it was difficult for him. It's like we are awakening new muscles and he kept saying, "This is HARD, Mom!" But I swear, he never quits, never slows down, just keeps pushing through, and I LOVE him for that!

As we rode, I slowly took up more and more contact, and he let me know when enough was enough and it was just too hard. I praised him heavily and finished out the ride on a loose rein letting him stretch down. I think he REALLY loves stretching down now. It has to feel good on his back after all these years of going inverted.

So yea, tonight was easily our most consistent rides and has given me great hope for our future together. This boy makes me so proud and I just adore him, his work ethic, and his amazing temperament . I've had no less than 5 or 6 people at the barn tell me how much they love him and how sweet he is.
How the hell did I get so lucky??


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## Cherrij

I am so happy to read stories like this, when a troubled animal gets help and improves  You are doing a great job.


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## PoptartShop

SO happy he is feeling better after the adjustments! That is so good to hear. 
Makes me happy.


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## Tihannah

Forrest just continues to get better and better.

The ride started off kinda bumpy and he was being really inconsistent and fighting even the slightest bit of contact. I don't argue with him. I hold my position and just let him work it out with himself. We're really getting more comfortable with each other and the trust in the saddle is getting better everyday. I used to feel kinda nervous riding him, like I couldn't just let go because his stride was so big and I wasn't sure I could control it without having some form of contact. But now I've grown used to him and understand him, so I can just let the reins go slack and trot around just using my seat and legs to guide him. He responds to them really well and I never feel like he's gonna just take off with me. It just took some time to adjust after riding Tess.

Anyhow, so we struggled for about 25 minutes. But I understand that its hard for him and try not to push. We just keep going. And now that I'm thinking back, I remember I used the neck massage thing to ask him to relax. It was really easy and he stretched down almost immediately. Maybe that's what it was?? Because right after that, he started being really consistent and accepting a soft contact. Usually, when I try to give him a half halt, no matter how slight or soft, he reacts as if I just slapped him - jerking his head back. But there we were trotting around with contact and using half halts and he was steady as could be. 

Helen was standing nearby giving a lesson and said, "Woooww! He looks SUPER, Tina!" And he did so well in the trot, that I went ahead and asked for canter and he gave me a REALLY nice right lead canter. Helen was impressed. We tried again on the left lead, but he's weaker on that side, so it wasn't as good, and I could see that it was super hard on him, so I didn't force it and took him back down to trot.

He was doing so good that Helen told me to start doing some leg yields from quarter line to wall and he did great! It felt amazing because we don't ever really work on things during our ride. I just focus on getting him to soften and trying to accept some contact. It felt like a monumental achievement.

This horse is just so much fun to ride and I feel like we are learning so much from each other. He is teaching me how to be soft, steady, and consistent and I am teaching him that the bit doesn't have to hurt and we can be a partnership without the pain. On the ground, we could not have a stronger bond. I feel like he loves me, even if that sounds silly. When I get to the barn, and he sees me from his stall, he nickers to me. If I leave him in cross ties and walk off to get something, as soon as he sees me coming back, he nickers. And he LOVES kisses. He's just the sweetest big ol lug! Lol.

I still remember when I told our senior trainer about selling Tess and she told me, "With your budget, it's rare for someone to strike gold twice." But with Forrest? I'm pretty sure I did it again! ;-)


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## PoptartShop

He is such a good boy! So glad each ride is better & better. :smile: He does sound like he's a fun ride, & there's always something to learn from him. It doesn't sound silly at ALL, I'm sure he DOES love you! <3 It sounds like from the start you guys both really took to each other. It's a great thing.

You definitely striked gold!


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## DanteDressageNerd

I'd say you struck gold again, that's fantastic Tina!! I'm SO happy you two are clicking and working it out together! Brick by brick! You should be ecstatic, that's phenomenal! It's hard to retrain horses that have been going the wrong way for so long, major kudos!


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## Tihannah

It took me a bit longer today to figure him out, but in the end, I was pleased. My Forrest is a tricky fellow, but today, I think I may have opened a door to figuring him out.

Our rides always start out at the walk on a loose rein. No fuss, no fight. And we usually stay at the walk for at least 15 min. Then when we pick up the trot, we struggle with contact, no matter how light or soft, and just getting him to settle and not fight it. Today was no different. And when we struggled at the trot, I brought him back to walk and we'd try again. At the walk, he could be soft and steady and even take up some contact, but at the trot, he continued to toss his head despite me trying to give him a loose rein.

And then towards the end of the ride, I suddenly thought about the lateral work again. So we started doing spiral in, then out, and leg yields from quarter line to wall. And you know what? It was like I took his mind from the fight. He stopped worrying so much about what my hands were doing and more in tune to what my seat and legs were asking. And then I had him. 

We were doing beautiful 20 meter circles and figure 8 trots across the arena and he was stretched down into the contact and steady. I even tested it and tried to bring him up a little more, but he quickly told me that it was hard. So we continued in what Helen likes to call a "training level" frame and it was lovely. I learned that he tenses and locks up in his jaw on the bit, making it hard to take up any real contact. But doing lateral work and suppling exercises actually gets him to relax and settle into the bit instead of locking on it.

I have to admit, I am thoroughly enjoying this journey with him. He is super tricky, but I love figuring him out. He has forward and rhythm, so working through these things, I think, is a lot easier than it was with Tess. She never had those first two components, so I could never really work on all the other stuff with any real success. I was exhausting all my energy just trying to keep her going and a 20 min ride had me tired and panting. With Forrest, I have to stop myself from going too long. I ask him to trot and he trots until I ask him to stop. I can slow him down with my seat or ask for more, but he never just drops gait. Same with the canter and it just feels amazing.

After my ride, I was chatting with my trainer. She said she saw the end of my ride and he looked lovely. She also thought I needed to keep him in that frame for awhile until he was stronger and could build more topline and hind end strength. She then asked me what his show name was, and I told her I hadn't come up with anything yet. And then a couple minutes later, it came to her. She said, "How about Enchanted Forrest?" I LOVED it! 

So now, we have a show name!! :smile:


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## DanteDressageNerd

That's fantastic Tina! I'm really happy to hear about the progress you two make and are able to build on each ride. I think laterals are the best exercise against horses that lock their jaw (Wonder does it too) you can't fight them, just gotta ride their body and accept what you get and it gets better each and every day. So awesome! Glad it's coming together. How are you liking that supersport?


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## Tihannah

Not sure it's been long enough, but hes definitely looking better from just 3 weeks ago. He still needs more weight on him, but hes slowly gaining and looking better everyday. We aren't even halfway through the bag yet, so I'm hoping to see some good results in another 30days or so!


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## DanteDressageNerd

I'm sure you'll notice the difference more and more as time goes on. I'm really impressed with how much it's helped Wonder and Frankie. Dev, Grover, Image and several horses at the barn. It's pretty impressive but glad he's gaining, it just takes more time than we really like to see them gain weight, fitness and topline lol.


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## Tihannah

DanteDressageNerd said:


> I'm sure you'll notice the difference more and more as time goes on. I'm really impressed with how much it's helped Wonder and Frankie. Dev, Grover, Image and several horses at the barn. It's pretty impressive but glad he's gaining, it just takes more time than we really like to see them gain weight, fitness and topline lol.


I will say that Helen started both her TB mares on the supersport around the same time and one of them? Omg, she looks amazing! We were all gawking at her today, cause I swear she did not look like this just a month or even a few weeks ago. She is so muscled up and he neck has gotten so wide and her butt filled out like crazy! Lol. It may work faster on some horses or something. I don't know, but Helen was just beaming at how amazing she looked. Her other horse is already well muscled and is doing 4th level, so the change is probably not as obvious. I've seen slight changes with Forrest, but I think once his weight is where it needs to be, we will see more significant change.


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## Tihannah

On another note, we made another GREAT discovery today. Both Helen and my trainer were there today so we hashed out what we've been seeing with Forrest. We agreed that it was strange that even though he "seems" to be sensitive to the bit, if you get him busy doing lateral work, he settles and accepts the contact.

So we decided to put a hackamore on him and see if that made a difference. Would you believe it made ZERO difference? He still braced and refused to soften and just wanted to go inverted with his nose in the air?? Even with me leaving the reins slack? Helen was shocked. He had us fooled the whole time! Here we were trying to be super soft and coax him into accepting the bit, when it wasn't the bit all along!

His problem is not contact and accepting the bit. It's not wanting to come over his back. And he's been ridden like this for so long, that he fights any aid trying to get him there. And THAT'S why when I do the lateral work and leg yields and REALLY get him moving off my seat and legs, he suddenly softens and responds well to half halts and rein aids and doesn't fight! Who knew??? Lol.

So we are SUPER happy about this, because this is actually a much easier problem to fix. It's going to take some time, yes, to rebuild those muscles so that he's comfortable and it's more natural for him, but we have already seen good progress and are confident he will convert. We think that eventually, he will be strong enough and get used to moving properly so that there will be no more fuss or fight when we ask him to go round or come onto the bit. He's already shown us that he can do it, it's just hard for him, so he wants to revert back to what he knows.

After we tried the hackamore, I put him back in a bit, and then Helen, me, and a few of the girls decided to just hack out in the mare pasture. Helen did a few cross country jumps on her mare and the rest of us just kinda hung out and watched. It was Forrest's first time out in that pasture and he handled it like he'd been there a hundred times. Every time I ride him, I am so grateful for finding such an easy horse!


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## DanteDressageNerd

That makes sense to me. It's amazing all the little things we figure out about horses each time we ride and work with them. It's always exciting to take another step forward and discover something new that gets you one step further forward on the road. IMO the journey makes the destination worth it. Major kudos!


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## Tihannah

Forrest continues to show improvement every day. It's been hard for him learning to use himself differently, but he's getting stronger and learning to balance himself without hollowing and throwing his head in the air.

Yesterday I removed all aids because I wanted to see where he was at. It took some serious negotiating, but eventually, I got him to consistently soften at the walk. We tried the trot, but he's just not ready and it was a mess. Lol. I can definitely see that as he gets stronger, it is becoming easier for him though.

I haven't taken much video of our rides like I did with Tess. I rarely have anyone to get video for me, but at the same time, even though he is making great progress, I am reluctant to post anything.

As I mentioned before, I know how sensitive people can be about aids used. And currently, we are using an aid that is normally deemed a big no-no. But like I said before, Forrest is a special case and it was only decided on after trying many different things and finding what he worked best with. It's almost like training wheels for him and he is doing extremely well.

At the same time, I think I have to keep in mind that he is a kind soul and accepts the aids used with an admiring quality. So though I'd love to post videos here to document our progress, I do not want someone else to come along, see the improvement, and try the same method with their horse thinking it could help them as well and put themselves in a dangerous situation. 

With that said, today was a super fun day at the barn. Our main farriers came out to give a class to the pony clubbers about hoof care, a local western reining trainer came out to give a demonstration, and then my trainer gave a cross country lesson to all the pony clubbers. At the end of the reining demonstration, the trainer asked if anyone wanted to hop on his mare. Everyone stood silent. I said, "No one wants to get on?? I'll ride then!" 

It was so fun! The horse was a 15yr old mare and super educated in reining. The trainer talked me through different maneuvers required in the reining pattern and she responded with ease. Compared to dressage, I thought it super easy. Lol. In dressage, you can put me on a super educated horse, but I would still push all the wrong buttons and make the ride a big mess! On the reigning horse, there were only a few buttons needed. Her trot and canter were also super easy to sit. After I rode, then suddenly, 3 other girls wanted to try her too. Lol.

After a short ride on Forrest, I took him out to the pasture to watch the girls doing cross country. We did a short canter around the pasture and he was great, then just hung out and watched the girls do their thing. All in all it was a super fun day. I really enjoy the people at my barn. For the most part, with the exception of a few, it's a really friendly, almost family-type oriented atmosphere. We hug and say "I love you's" and everyone is super supportive of each other. Our teen girls are so young at heart and just big goofballs that keep everyone laughing. One of the girls accomplished a big xc jump that she'd been working up to, and several people took video and pics and then emailed them to other friends to celebrate her achievement. I think it's the way barns should be - everyone trying to encourage and lift each other up and celebrate their successes. We may never be a big competition barn, but it definitely makes riding and learning so much more enjoyable.


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## KigerQueen

i dream of a barn like that. i used to think it was all dreams and only on the saddle club ****! but you show me it may not be a myth! if only i could find a barn like that out here in az...


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## DanteDressageNerd

I will say I agree. I find the reining horses pretty easy adapt to. I liked the sliding stops and spin when I used to play on them but dressage horses are much more specific. The shorter rein and precision of aids allows for less forgiveness. Horses that prosper in either sport are very different mentally and physically.

I'm REALLY happy to hear how well things are going with Forrest! That's fantastic!


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## Tihannah

Had our first clinic yesterday! It was great and I really learned some great stuff! I was kinda nervous going in that the clinician was going to balk at my use of extra aids in working with Forrest, but both Helen and my trainer were right there at the start of our lesson to give her the rundown on our situation. The clinician is an upper level eventer that has ridden at Rolex, super sweet and just really fun to work with. As soon as we started going, she totally agreed that he needed the extra aids, and we even did some adjusting during the ride because he's pretty much a master of evasion. Lol.

I'm not gonna lie, we definitely asked for more, and it wasn't easy, but I learned that I was letting him get away with some things and it wasn't helping. You see, whenever I'd try to take up some contact, he'd brace, fuss and fight, so I kinda taught him that if he'd soften, I'd pretty much release the contact. So though I was getting him to soften and go long and low, he still wasn't on the bit, so I was pretty much teaching him to just go on the forehand.

At first we started with a fairly long rein length and just worked on pushing him into it. With Forrest, you spend about 15 min arguing with him about it before he finally yields and then it's beautiful. Then we'd take a walk break and start again and it was almost like starting over. So when he figured out that we were pushing him into the contact by constantly asking for more, he then tried to just run through my hands and run away with me. 

So from there, we took the reins up to a normal length, and just kept pushing him forward, but bringing him back, asking to soften, rinse and repeat. I think the clinician was a little nervous for me because for someone that doesn't know him, you'd think he's about to explode as much as he fights - tossing his head, and yanking hard, or backing up. She kept trying to reassure me, like, "It's okay. It's alright, easy..." Lol. So I finally had to tell her, he doesn't scare me at all. He doesn't have a mean bone in his body, he just doesn't give in very easily. I've gotten used to his big strides and movement and no longer feel panicked when he tries to firmly object to something or speed up his gaits. I'm just like, "Aaah! Knock it off!" Lol.

So anyhow, we fought the good fight on a shorter rein, and when he tried to run, I brought him back. And when he tried to yank and suck back, I legged him on, and believe it or not, he eventually gave and I got some really good moments! He looked like a real dressage horse! Lol. And she praised us both and said it was lovely. We succeeded at walk and trot, but canter was a mess! Lol. More so going to the left than right, but we agreed that he just wasn't strong enough yet to be able to hold the frame in a canter. Cantering left, it looked like I was riding a llama! Lol. The clinician was very impressed with how balanced he was though and how smooth his gaits were despite all the fuss and fight.

In the end I was VERY pleased with what we accomplished and what I learned in working with him and getting him to soften and accept the bit. She told me that he will likely need to stay in the aids for a few months at least. We are rebuilding his muscles and we've got to erase years of going badly. She said that as long as I'm in the saddle, he needs to be in the aids, and that I shouldn't ever allow him to go where he can brace and lock his neck to the sky again. She said that we need to erase that evasion from his mind so that he forgets its even an option and it's going to take some time.

In the meantime, the vet is coming out tomorrow to check his teeth and do some bloodwork on him. I've increased his feed 3 times, and he still is not gaining weight. :-( I started him on some Cool Calories yesterday and am hoping it will help. He seems to love it. I have also made him an appointment with another chiropractor that's flying down mid September. I like my chiropractor, but I think these people have a lot more experience and may be more beneficial in helping get him straightened out. I spoke to them over the phone and described the issues we were having and they think he is just misaligned from being ridden bad for so long. They said they will get to the root of the issue and then give him a total body realignment to get him straightened out. They also use the electro light therapy in addition to other things, so I'm hopeful that this will be good for him.

Heading out again today to work on what we learned. I think I came away with some really good tools yesterday for working with Forrest and getting him to accept this new way of going. Below is a pic from the clinic. I had to ride in the covered arena because the skies opened up and the dressage arena was flooded. Not a great pic, but you can see the great progress he's making.


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## DanteDressageNerd

That's fantastic Tina! It sounds like you had a really good-productive lesson with this clinician! That's awesome! I'm so glad you were able to take as much as you could from it and gain a lot of useful information to help you develop Forrest. Always a treat to have such a great rider and clinic.


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## PoptartShop

Great job, I'm happy to hear you had a blast at the clinic!  I hope the vet can figure out what's going on with him as to him not gaining weight. :sad: Fingers crossed.
You look great on him!


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## Tihannah

Rode Forrest on Sunday and he was FANTASTIC! Something definitely clicked for him during the clinic, because he was so much easier to get round and on the bit. I could half halt him and bring him back and set him up in a frame and it was SO cool! Lol.

I was telling Cassie this, but I honestly don't think he knew that he could round his neck to come up onto the bit. He's so used to going all strung out that there were many times when we tried to hold the contact and push him into it, that he acted like he just couldn't go forward and would just back up. But some time during the clinic we were going through the exercises of pushing him forward and bringing him back and he just finally found the spot. And then when he was there, he stopped fighting and was super steady. Yesterday was the same, except it took next to nothing to get him there. I was SOOO happy. What a breakthrough!

This morning the vet came. He said Forrest's teeth were great and he couldn't find anything at all that would make him resistant to the bit. We brought him out and got him moving around and he said the only thing he could see was weakness in his hind and back. He thought his gums were a bit pale so he drew blood to check for anemia and the stool sample was to check for parasites. He said its possible they weren't worming him properly. He said these are both easy fixes and once it's treated, we will start seeing some weight and muscle gain with him being ridden properly. He's supposed to call me this afternoon with the results. Fingers crossed!


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## DanteDressageNerd

Im so glad the clinic was as productive as it was and you made so many break throughs with your boy! That's fantastic! He's quite a special challenge to develop but you're coming through and having a great time doing it. I'm so happy you guys are clicking and build together.

I'm sorry about the worm situation but at least it's something simple to take care of. Hopefully he'll be good to go in no time!


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## Tihannah

Not much to update, but Forrest has been started on his deworming regimen to get his poor belly cleared. Vet said he was loaded with Strongyles. :-( He said I wasn't even feeding a horse, I was just feeding worms. I knew something had to be wrong because I kept upping his feed and hay and alfalfa and he wasn't gaining a single pound. Good news is that its an easy fix and all his blood work came back normal. He is on safeguard for 5 days and then the vet told me to wait to weeks and give him Quest Plus just to make sure we cleared everything out. It kinda makes me mad that the previous owner wasn't keeping up with something so basic in horse care. She told me she was feeding him 13lbs a day between 3 feedings and I didn't believe it because he was so underweight when he came. She owned other horses, so it just baffles me that she wouldn't be regularly worming or at least check for it when he was losing weight?? It's such an inexpensive fix! Anyhow, the vet told me not to worry. He said in a month, I will have a completely different horse. He gave him a good once over and said he was a really nice horse and the only thing he could really see was simply weakness from being underweight and under muscled. He thinks he's going to be amazing in a few months.

I'm also really jealous cause I started him on the Purina Supersport as soon as he arrived to get him into condition, and I pretty much wasted a whole bag feeding it to the worms. A few people at my barn started their horses on it not long after me, and their horses look incredible! One is a TB mare who's owner has been trying to get her conditioned for more than a year now. She's been on the supersport for only a few weeks, and I saw her yesterday out in the pasture and was like, "Who is that??" It took me a minute to realize it was the same horse! Lol. Her muscling, topline, hind end all look 10 times better. I couldn't believe it! Helen put both her TB mares on it and one of them looks simply amazing. Her neck and hind are ridiculous! Lol. So yea, I simply can't wait to get Forrest cleared out, so he can start absorbing all the good stuff I've been giving him. I took a before pic today, but am gonna wait 30 days to take a comparison pic and then will post it here.

I also was able to book the new chiropractor at our barn. They will be flying down and visiting on the Sept 19th. Forrest desperately needs it and I could really tell the other day when I rode. He is super tight in his poll going to the left and really stiff in his back. Doesn't want to bend or soften at all. Going to the right, it's completely different. He will soften and bend and go nicely. I've taken a step back from riding him as much, now that I know what was going on. He's really just too weak and it's just too hard for him, so we are focusing on groundwork mostly until his weight and strength start picking back up. I'm really glad that I will be able to get all this resolved in plenty time before the next clinic with John. Forrest should be right as rain by then and then we will get 3 whole days with my favorite clinician! Woohoo!!


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## DanteDressageNerd

I know you had talked about the worm issue but man that is sad because it is such a basic piece of horse care. They have to be wormed from time to time. Can't wait to see Forrest after being wormed, brand new horse.

Supersport is amazing! So glad it's been such a hit at the barn, it really works! All the horse's look fantastic on it!

I hope this new chiropractor can work some magic on him and it holds *crosses fingers* I hope it goes well!


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## Tihannah

Forrest is finally starting to gain weight!! Woohoo! And I really think that I have finally gotten down to the bottom of his issues with the contact. His teeth were checked and they are fine. Me, the vet, and a chiro have looked at his back and he never shows any signs of soreness. Just weakness, which is understandable.

Well, today, I employed one of the barn girls to help me with him during lunging. I rigged my draw reins up so they were similar to vienna reins. I read several recommendations online that they are good for horses with the huge under neck and getting them to accept the contact, frame, and rebuilding the neck muscle. So anyhow, first I lunged him both directions in the vienna rig. He did great. No fuss, no fight. Just chugging along like business as usual. Then I got this girl to sit in the saddle. Both directions, same thing. Nice rhythm, no fuss. THEN, I reattached the reins to the bridle, changing nothing else. I asked her to wait till we got going good and then slowly pick them up.

It changed everything. He went from business as usual, to tossing his head and refusing to go forward. Even with me coming behind him with the whip. I tried being firm, I tried coaxing him in a soothing tone. Total no go. Now to the left, which is his weaker side, I could actually get a walk and trot, but with quite a bit of head tossing and fuss. But to the right? Nothing. Couldn't get more than a few strides before he'd stop, back up, and just outright refuse to move out. Even with her only holding maybe 2oz contact in her hands. She even threw the reins forward a few times just to say, "Here. Just go." Nope. 

And I think I've mentioned this before but, I rode him once in a hackamore, and it was the exact same reaction he gives to the bit. Neck stretched out and pointed to the sky like giraffe. So I was just sitting here and pondering this in my head. The way he's been carrying his head and neck so long and imagine people seesawing and trying to force his head down. His poll and neck is totally out of whack! Taking the contact means softening in his poll and neck and he CAN'T! I honestly think it hurts him. If I let the contact go all together, he will soften on his own, but the slightest touch and he fights. And when you're trotting on right lead, you can see it. His poll is bent to the inside and it's like he simply can't turn his head to the inside at all.

So yea, I'm really hoping this new chiro will be able to get him all fixed up. My poor guy. He really is trying, but the more I work with him, the more I can see how much he's struggling. After we got done lunging, I gave him a bath, some carrots, and then let him graze awhile before putting him back in his stall. I rode another horse named Roxie. She was a rescue that my trainer took in. Her daughter was riding her for awhile, but then she was diagnosed with navicular. Her daughter wants to event, and since the horse can't jump anymore, her daughter stopped riding her. She's pretty fat and out of shape now, so my trainer asked if I wanted to ride her and just work her a bit. She was super sweet and a really fun ride. Made me sad that such a nice horse now has no one to love and take care of her.

And finally, while browsing FB today, I came across a post from @DanteDressageNerd and a pic of her and Frankie from yesterday. Cassie and I chat frequently and share a lot of the same viewpoints regarding horses and dressage and what not. She has also been a great friend during my hunt for both Tess and Forrest. But when I saw the pic, I thought, "Wow! We're kindred spirits!" Lol. It's freakishly awesome. Especially considering that we took them the same day. 

Cassie and Frankie and Me and Forrest


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## DanteDressageNerd

lol it's amazing how close the two pictures are. We're leading semi parallel lives and are indeed kindred spirits!! Though I have you to thank for finding Wonder. I'd have never looked on canter had you not been in the market for a horse!

I'm sorry about the rough ride with Forrest, it sounds difficult but important to work through. I REALLY hope this new chiropractor can fix whatever this is, else the only things I could think of are kissing spine or SI or EPM or something. It's so odd that has such extreme reactions. Patience and compassion I suppose. I hope he's able to work it out! I know you guys will, you're a good team!


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## KigerQueen

odies poll is out of wack (and causes his head shaking). if i ride loose reign i dont have issues and he keeps a nice western headset. i ask for giving in English and the fight is on. have an acupressureist come out who can fix his head shaking and giving issues in a 10 min session. he is comeing out next weekend for another session to finish what he could not (as not to over lode odie) last time. and same with my mare. maybe look into acupressure or acupuncture.


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## Tihannah

KigerQueen said:


> odies poll is out of wack (and causes his head shaking). if i ride loose reign i dont have issues and he keeps a nice western headset. i ask for giving in English and the fight is on. have an acupressureist come out who can fix his head shaking and giving issues in a 10 min session. he is comeing out next weekend for another session to finish what he could not (as not to over lode odie) last time. and same with my mare. maybe look into acupressure or acupuncture.


I wish I could find a good acupuncturist around here, but even finding a decent chiro or saddle fitter is a pain! The chiro that's coming also uses the electro light therapy, which is similar to acupuncture, as well as massage, so I'm hoping they will be able to get this worked out. Thanks for sharing that though! It gives me hope that someone else has seen the same reactions with their horse.
@DanteDressageNerd - Someone else suggested to EPM treatments to me when he wasn't gaining any weight, but he hasn't shown any of the symptoms that I looked up. There is someone at my barn treating their horse for it, but he shows symptoms. However, the vet (not my vet) didn't want to test for it cause he said is expensive and the results take forever to come back. So they've spent over $2k in treatment and haven't seen any change. :neutral: They're now considering taking him to LSU to have him thoroughly evaluated. If th chiro doesn't figure this thing out, then I am going to look into SI injections. I just don't think its his back though. He has no issues lifting his back or backing up and sitting on his hind. Even with his head tossing, you can slow him down to a ridiculously slow canter where he looks like you can train him to do a canter pirouette. Lol. I'm just keeping my fingers crossed here.


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## DanteDressageNerd

Or gastric ulcers, some horses are really funny if they have ulcers *shrugs* horses are a mystery and they can't talk to tell us what hurts or is bothering them. It could be a number of things. I hope you find something. Good lucK!!


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## Tihannah

Haven't ridden since Saturday. Worked Forrest on the lunge in the vienna reins Sunday, yesterday, and today. Man, he's been a butt! They do really work though. They don't let him evade the contact at all and force him to come properly over his back. But it makes him SOO mad! Lol.

I literally spend the first 10-15 min just fighting with him. He jumps from trot to canter to halt. No walking. Tries to stop, backup, and refuse. I had to have a friend help me yesterday cause he was being such a butt. Today I just had to let him canter it out. It was crazy! But once he gets done throwing his tantrum, he gives in and then I get some really amazing work outta him.

After lunging, I decided to just do a few minutes in the saddle since he hadn't been ridden in a few days. The lunging definitely helped, but he still fussed a bit. At one point, we were practically doing piaffe because he didn't want me pushing him into the contact. Lol. I mean, he's really amazing. I wish I had video. People were watching and like, "Wow! His movement is amazing!" and I'm like, "Nah, he's just being a d***!" Lol. It's so frustrating at times because his natural movement is MADE for dressage. Literally. But his mind is like, "This crap is for the birds!"

Only 11 more days till the chiro and next month John will be here. Can't wait! I so want John to ride him. If anyone can get through to him, John can. Im just keeping my fingers crossed that the chiro will get him all straightened out so we can continue making progress. Until then, I'm just gonna keep focusing on the groundwork.


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## Tihannah

So today was rather interesting...

Because of all the fuss and fight with Forrest on the lunge, I decided to just free lunge him in the round pen. I was able to stand back and really watch him go in the vienna reins setup. He wasn't keen on the idea, but much more cooperative than he's been on the lunge line lately. Going right, he stayed to the outside of the pen, but seemed to have a hard time looking straight or towards the inside. Can't wait for the chiro to address this! Going left, he couldn't seem to get off his inside shoulder and just continuously fell to the inside and kept making his circles way smaller than they should be. At one point, I just had to walk next to him and give him constant reminders with the inside rein to lift his shoulder and move outwards. He simply could not seem to do it on his own and I constantly had to push him out.

Afterwards, I decided to just hop in the saddle and see if the work we'd done in the round pen had helped any. Initially, there was still quite a bit of fuss and fight in him. Not wanting to soften and just constantly yanking at my hands wanting me to release any and all contact. It gets really frustrating at times because he NEVER gives up the fight, and its hard to ignore the giraffe neck and head ready to smack you in the face. All you're doing is asking him to simply walk and soften and he acts as if you're asking him to perform piaffes or something. He wasn't listening to my seat or aids at all, just arguing with my hands.

But at some point, I just decided, you know what? We're just gonna do leg yields and lateral work! And I changed my focus from what his head was doing, to instead what his body was doing. And yep, I leg yielded the crap outta him! Lol. We went from one side of the arena to the other, then back up again into a counter bent 20m circle, then changed back to inner bend, then leg yield from quarter line to wall. We even did a few sloppy shoulder ins, but I didn't care as long as he was moving off my leg. And then at some point I looked down and realized, "Hey! He's soft and not fighting me anymore!" Lol. So we kept going, bending, circling, halt, then walk, then trot and counterbend. And he was giving me good halts where he stayed soft on the bit and waited for my cue to walk. It was fantastic. 

And that's when I realized. In normal type situations with a horse, you can teach them that if they soften, then you soften. But for some reason, that logic doesn't work with Forrest. And you can't seem to change his mind about the way HE thinks he should be going with his head. If he was on a debate team, he'd definitely win, because for him the argument isn't done until you dismount. So what I basically discovered is that I simply can't change his mind and talk him into this new way of going. What I have to do is just change the way he's using his body. When I keep his body constantly working in challenging ways, it seems to overtake his mind and he is no longer focused on how much contact HE thinks I should have. And because I'm making him use his body, his head and neck are following suit without him even realizing it. Lol.

And yes, I realize that this has always been the principal of dressage and correctly working a horse, but I gotta tell you, this guy has made it extremely difficult getting to this point. Because ideally, you'd think that you need to at least get him to be soft and at least walk and accept the bit. But with Forrest, it's like you have to just dive into the real work before he can accept what you're asking him. But in general, I think a lot of this will become much easier once he's been worked on and all straightened out. And I'm honestly DYING to hurry up and get it done! Lol. Only another week to go!

After our ride, I gave him a good bath, some lunch, and then hand grazed him and just hung out. I simply adore the big knucklehead. He just has SOO much potential for dressage and I can't wait till we can REALLY start growing together!

My sweet boy!


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## Tihannah

Vet came by today for routine herd work and called me about Forrest. We decided we would do another fecal to make sure we took care of all the worms. He's been steadily gaining weight, so I think he is doing well in that area, but better to be safe than sorry, right?

We rode last night and it was awful. Just terrible. I honestly couldn't get anything decent out of him. On the lunge or in the saddle. He fought me every 2 or 3 strides so I just gave up. He will get today and tomorrow off and then the chiro will be out Sunday to work on him. I am really anxious to see what the chiro finds as he's been getting progressively worse the past few weeks, even on a loose rein. And it honestly doesn't make a lot of sense except that he's really uncomfortable or in a lot of pain. He's an absolute saint on the ground. Just the sweetest horse you could imagine. Then when you work him, he's like a completely different animal. And its almost like he wants to do it, but just can't. I asked the vet to leave me some bute so I could give him some for the chiro, and I took Monday off so I could ride and see how he does. I'm praying for a big difference, so please keep your fingers crossed for us.

If not, then I've already spoken to another equine vet that can come out to take a look at him for me.


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## Dehda01

I would be taking some cervical (first) and maybe back X-rays to look for kissing spine or arthritic changes


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## Tihannah

Dehda01 said:


> I would be taking some cervical (first) and maybe back X-rays to look for kissing spine or arthritic changes


I know he's out of alignment for sure. You can see it from the ground. He's been ridden inverted with his nose to the sky for a long time and now I'm asking him to reach down and come over his back, so I'm sure it's aggravated his back because he is learning to use himself in a new way. It seems the more I ask him to work properly, the worse he gets, so it's like his body is tying up from the change. If anything, the chiro can help to release all of this built up tension. I'm hoping it's not kissing spine and don't think it is from the reading I've done on the symptoms, but I do think there is something going on with his back. He's not girthy and does not react to pressure along the spine. I think it is in the loin area, which I've read can affect the entire back up to the neck? When I curry him in the loin area, he will drop his back and move away. I think he is sore there. :-(


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## Dehda01

Sure sounds like the classic symptoms I have seen at the clinic I work at and with clients and friends horses. I would be xraying.


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## Tihannah

Dehda01 said:


> Sure sounds like the classic symptoms I have seen at the clinic I work at and with clients and friends horses. I would be xraying.


Well, that will be my next step.


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## Rainaisabelle

What are his feet like?


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## Tihannah

The other reason I doubt the kissing spine is because if you watch the lunging video on page 1, he is going totally fine. No issues at all. Now if I lunge him in the exact same manner he is tossing his head and fighting the forward. He has also started falling in when lunging to the left, which he never did before. This is what makes me think he is out of alignment. I would think if it was kissing spine, then these issues would have shown up before as he was being ridden and jumped at least a couple times a week before I got him. Not after a few months. I've changed his whole way of going at 16yrs of age, and I think it's caused a lot of tension and discombobulation throughout his body. Either way, I will get to the bottom of it. Just my thoughts...


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## Tihannah

Rainaisabelle said:


> What are his feet like?


He has great feet.


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## Rainaisabelle

Tihannah said:


> He has great feet.


Sorry I can't remember right now but did you get a vet check on him? How thorough was it?


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## Tihannah

I didn't do xrays, but yes. Vet said he looked great except that he was underweight from the worms and had weakness behind because it.


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## Rainaisabelle

Tihannah said:


> I didn't do xrays, but yes. Vet said he looked great except that he was underweight from the worms and had weakness behind because it.


Just wondering because Roy technically passed his vet check but well their is Roy lol, his problems were very unforseeable without x-rays. Forrest could just be seriously out of alignment and muscle sore but just something to think about


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## Dehda01

Horses will often attempt to be good even when they are are in pain. Some are more stoic than others and are willing to give one or two good rides before they feel the need to mention something. 

You have mentioned multiple times that he longes more through than he does with his rider. Muscle soreness should resolve over time and consistency unless he has something like a PSSM or the like( and I hope your vet has considered myopathies) , but the head throwing and being grumpy under weight is often spinal arthritis or a narrowing of the spinal channel for other reasons.


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## Tihannah

Dehda01 said:


> Horses will often attempt to be good even when they are are in pain. Some are more stoic than others and are willing to give one or two good rides before they feel the need to mention something.
> 
> You have mentioned multiple times that he longes more through than he does with his rider. Muscle soreness should resolve over time and consistency unless he has something like a PSSM or the like( and I hope your vet has considered myopathies) , but the head throwing and being grumpy under weight is often spinal arthritis or a narrowing of the spinal channel for other reasons.


The head throwing is happening on the lunge as well. I free lunged him in a round pen last week and that's when I noticed he was falling to the inside. Only going left, he couldn't stay to the outside of the pen, kept cutting halfway through. Going to the right he was fine.

I've also done many different scenarios. 2 weeks ago lunged him both directions fine. Add a rider on the lunge, both directions he was fine. It was only when she picked up the reins that he started head tossing and refusing to go forward. 

I haven't ridden a lot from then till now. Just mainly focusing on groundwork, but it was a little over a week ago when he started refusing the lunge. That's why I went to the round pen and saw the glaring crookedness without me holding him up or guiding him on the lunge line.


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## DanteDressageNerd

In regards to Forrest I'd start with chiropractor and work from there. It gets increasingly more expensive once you venture into diagnostics. I know we've talked but I understand. Hopefully your new chiropractor can point out possible trouble spots or have some ideas about what is happening and how to help him!


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## Tazzie

Hopefully you get some answers soon! Poor Forrest :sad:


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## Tihannah

I am SOOO happy to report that our visit today was a total success! So the chiro was not exactly a chiro. He said he did equine osteopathy, which is similar, but focuses more on getting to the root of the issue. 

We had 7 horses lined up, but I asked him to do Forrest first because I was sure he was the worst of the bunch. I was indeed correct. As soon as he looked at him, he said, "See how the area around his spine is depressed? He's definitely got some ribs out." But he started at his poll and then worked his way back. In total? Here were the results:

He was locked in his poll, his jaw, sore in 2 spots on each side of his neck, tight in one shoulder, had 8 ribs out on his left side, 5 on the right, and tight in his right hip. He was a mess! But watching this man work was amazing! He'd pinpoint the pain and I'd watch Forrest react and move away from his hands. Then he'd do his thing, and test the area again and nothing. No reaction whatsoever. The most telling was his back. 

OMG, my poor baby. His said his spine was perfect. It was his ribs that were killing him. He ran his hands down the side below Forrest's spine and his entire side would collapse. Then went one by one and put each rib back into place. 2 were so painful that Forrest bucked and kicked the stall wall twice. But when he finished, Forrest gave a loud exhale as if he was so relieved. He ran his hand in the exact same manner over and over and there was no reaction at all. Just like that, the pain was gone. I held Forrest as he worked and 3 others stood behind us watching and as soon as he finished adjusting the ribs, it was like his back just started to come up and fill in. Everyone noticed it and it was amazing to see.

I watched him crack his jaw, work on his shoulder, everything, and you could just see my horse's whole demeanor change. Now, most chiros I've seen have always said to give the horse 24hrs rest before riding again, but this guy was adamant that we needed to get the horses moving NOW. He said adjusting them, and then allowing them to sit in a stall was only allowing the adjustment to settle back into place. He said if we couldn't ride, then we needed to at least keep them moving for 15-20 min. Several people elected to ride, but I was hesitant at first.

I walked him around a bit and then decided to put him in the round pen and free lunge him. I watched him go and he was no longer falling in to the left and just looked overall more balanced. He didn't fight or fuss or refuse to move forward. So I decided to go ahead and put him under saddle. I didn't use any extra aids because I really wanted to see what he would do. 

When I got in the saddle, he didn't instantly jump to giraffe mode, like he's always done. We just moved out normally. Once we got in the dressage arena, I kept him at walk and then picked up the reins. He, of course, went to what he knows, trying to go above the bit. Without any type aid, normally, there is almost nothing I could do once he decided to point his nose to the sky. He would lock his jaw and neck and then it just feels like you're trying to get a brick wall to soften. Not this time. All I did was widen my reins and then give half halts and he'd soften! I'm not even kidding when I tell you that THIS horse does not soften in his jaw! But tonight he did! Lol. And we did this for about 15 minutes at the walk. Just me communicating that, "NO, you can't stick your nose in the sky." And before long, we were coming to an understanding and he was really trying not to go above the bit. And it wasn't like before where he'd stop, back up, refuse to go forward. It was more about balance and learning that he could maneuver himself without kissing the sky, but no refusing, and certainly no locking up. He wasn't yanking or tugging at my hands either. Before, it was exhausting because it constantly felt like you were in a tug of war with him. He wouldn't accept ANYTHING, any amount of contact. But tonight, he was like, "Okay, this is hard, but I'm trying, Mom."  

In the end, he gave me several strides at trot without trying to go above the bit, so I praised and patted him and we called it quits. I felt like crying, honestly. Because tonight was the first time I rode him where I felt like I was only battling his mind and not his body. It was like discovering hope again and realizing that the potential is still there. We made PROGRESS simply through understanding because his mind wasn't blocked from the pain.

We rode all the way back to the barn and I only had to remind him once about going above the bit. And when we reached the barn, he even gave me a nice halt without coming off the bit. I was SO PROUD and SO HAPPY.

I wish I could have this guy back sooner, but unfortunately, he travels all around the country and is booked until the 1st week in January. He did show me some stretches I can do to keep the ribs extended though. Everyone was just amazed at what he did with their horses, so he told me to just let him know, and he would be happy to add us to his schedule again after the 1st of the year. 

Oh, and finally, he told me that it was clear that Forrest has been like this for a long time and now that he's fixed the pain, I was going to have to focus on fixing his mind and making him forget that work means pain. But he said as sore and as much pain as Forrest was in, that it was a testament to his truly remarkable temperament that he didn't try to put my butt in the dirt every time I rode. And that right there made me love my sweet boy even more!


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## Rainaisabelle

Whoohooo! Glad it was a simple fix!!


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## KigerQueen

need to find me one of thoughs. odie is out of wack and more so after he farked his back up rolling over his toy.... 

also AMAZING! i demand vids of him undersaddle! i just set my go pro on one of the dressage posts/letters at the end of the arena. not the BEST vid but better than nothing!


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## Tazzie

Wow!! I'm so glad he was able to figure out everything that was ailing him and get him sorted out! He truly does have a good temperament to withstand all of that and work for you!

I also can't wait for a video! He's going to end up so happy once he realizes work isn't painful!


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## DanteDressageNerd

I'm SO SO SO happy for you and Forrest!! I'm SO happy this ortho chiropractor was able to make such a huge difference in him. I'm so glad it's made such a big difference with him and you two are ready for a new start together!


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## Tihannah

Took the day off yesterday, so I could just spend the day with Forrest after his adjustment and see how he'd do. It was really nice cause it was just me and Helen there and we had the whole place to ourselves while everyone was at school and work.

Forrest was simply AMAZING! Helen just couldn't believe it. Lol. We both rode him and he was on the bit, not fighting or pulling or yanking. At first, he was still trying to go above the bit, but not being rude or refusing at all. Helen got an idea, and we changed the bit out. Apparently, Forrest has a super fat tongue and she let me try on of hers that she thought he'd be more comfortable in, but also deter him from going above the bit. It was incredible. He was so soft and steady and I'd give him slight half halts and he'd drop his head down into the bit even more! She was riding her younger TB mare and decided to do a few jumps with her. She said, "Take him through that grid and see what he does." It was only a small grid setup with 2 sets of ground poles, a small x cross and then maybe a foot and half tall jump if that. I was nervous as heck, but I did it, and OMG, it was so much fun! Lol. Forrest is a natural at jumping, thank goodness, cause I'm NOT! Lol. 

Then Helen got on him for a little bit and took him across a few small jumps and then just all out let him gallop around the whole jumping arena. He looked like he just loved it. I was amazed. His strides are unbelievable! I was so caught up in being ecstatic with my new horse that I didn't even think about getting video till we were about done. When I suddenly remembered, I tossed Helen my phone and said, "Here, get some video, cause no one will believe this!" Lol. So I trotted Forrest a few times around the jump arena and he was round and on the bit and no fuss or fight at all. The horses were dripping sweat, so we both hopped off and walked them back to the barn to untack. After I got everything off, I open my phone to watch the video and there was nothing there but one blurry pic! Helen never hit the record button!!! Her excuse was that she didn't know how to work my phone cause its not an iphone!:icon_frown: It's a Samsung Galaxy for pete's sake! 

So yea, had the most amazing day with my horse yesterday and nothing to show for it. :icon_frown: Since I took the day off, I'm probably working late today and won't make it out tonight. Hopefully, I can get out tomorrow and get someone to take some decent video for me.


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## seabiscuit91

That is so amazing to hear!!! Crazy to think how out of whack he must have been feeling for sooo long!!!
Ahh I never get videos when my rides are great, and for some reason I forget how to ride when I'm being filmed.. :lol:

Sounds like a fun day of riding!


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## Tihannah

Soooo...haven't been back to update on Forrest because our bliss was so short lived and I've been so stressed out and filled with anxiety about my horse. :-( When I went back to ride on Wednesday, it was like Monday had never happened. I literally could not ride him AT ALL. He refused to move forward or get anywhere near the bit. Only sideways or back up and even half reared a couple times. So I got off of him and took him in the covered arena. Put him in side reins and tried to just free lunge him. Even with me on the ground, he simply would not, could not, go forward more than a few steps. So I removed the side reins and asked him to go, and he happily obliged and went beautifully. I was mind boggled. What had happened??

Helen was there and another trainer that drives in and they were stumped as well and we all stood around hashing it out. The trainer said she had seen similar behavior with a friends horse and it ended up being his neck and that he had fused vertebrae or something like that. I honestly thought it was something with his teeth maybe? So I texted the osteo/chiro and he told me to call him. I took Forrest back into the barn and put him in crossties and explained everything that happened, the trainers thoughts, etc. He said, "Well, lets see." First we checked his back. Nothing. Then we checked his neck and he talked me through how to check all the pressure points. Nothing. He said, "Okay, now let's check his vertebrae." And he asked me to do carrot stretches and seeing how far back he could reach. I told him I do carrot stretches with Forrest before every ride, but did them anyway. Forrest could reach clear back to his butt. He told me to see if he could lift his head above his topline while back there, and he did it with ease on both sides. Then he said to have him touch his chest and hold it. No problem. He said NO WAY its his neck if he can do all that. 

So THEN, he tells me to use my fingers and put pressure against his teeth from the outside of his jaw. As soon as I did, he jerked away! Chiro told me to find a good dentist and have them get in his mouth to see whats going on. He said it was likely that his jaw was locked up from whatever issue he's been having and when the chiro came, he released it. I got one good ride, and then it reverted back to being locked up. :-(

So then the hunt began! Equine dentists are few and far between in our area, but I really wanted to get someone that knew what they were doing and looking at. I ended up calling 3. One, who was close, would never call me back after several messages and texts, so I gave up on him. Found 2 others who were about an hour away, but they were also traveling dentists and wouldn't be back near the area until mid October! I simply COULD NOT wait that long!! So after talking to a few people, I decided instead to get another equine vet out who also did teeth and came highly recommended. He came out yesterday and I told him what was going on. 

He immediately sedated Forrest and went in his mouth and I held my breath. He said his teeth looked good, but he needed to get in there with his tool. He only found a few teeth that needed to be balanced out and cleaned up the bridge of where the bit sits. He said no ulcers or sores, nothing broken, no loose teeth and whoever had done his teeth last had done a good job. Before the float, he'd examined him and watched him move and said it definitely wasn't his neck and that he moved really well. 

So I started to fill him in more about the scenarios we'd tried. I showed him the picture of Forrest going with his nose to the sky and his reactions to the bit, like giving him a half halt and him acting like you'd slapped him. We even put his bridle on so he could see the kind of bit I use and how it sits in his mouth. I told him how the chiro had adjusted his jaw, and I got one good ride and then that was it. A lightbulb went off in his eyes. He did chiropractic work too and checked his jaw and said it was really tight and loosened it while he was sedated. Then he asked his assistant to help him palapatate(?) the jaw or something like that. "It's TMJ," he said, "I'm almost sure of it." He said it's very common in people, but not as much in horses, but Forrest showed all the signs. He said we could xray, but it's very difficult to get good film of that area. His recommendation was that we simply inject the area while he was sedated. He received an injection on both sides of his head. He said he's been a vet for 30 years and Forrest is only the 2nd horse he's ever had to inject the TMJ.

He told me to give him off till Friday, then ride and call him to let him know how it goes. He said he would also like to do a total body acupuncture on him and that studies have shown that it is very helpful to horses with TMJ. I was ecstatic. FINALLY! A diagnosis! And HOPE! The vet was so nice and he really tried to work to keep my bill down. With the float, sedation, examination, and injection my bill was $250. I was relieved! I've read where people pay more than that just for the injection!

So since I can't ride till Friday, I've been doing a lot of research into the TMJ disorder and I swear that everything I've read describes Forrest to a "T" and explains SO much! I also learned that I was inadvertently making it worse. :-( The disorder causes them to involuntarily yank and toss their heads. So when he had side reins on (which was pretty much everyday), they were just yanking at his jaw more. Every day I've been bringing him carrots and apples, and I read that hard treats are a no go for horses with this disorder because they also aggravate the pain. I did read that things I WAS doing right is using the happy mouth baucher bit and a flash. The flash is recommended to help stabilize the jaw and the happy mouth baucher just makes it more comfortable to work. Of all the bits I tried, it was definitely the one he was most quiet in.

My trainer was doing lessons while the vet worked on him, but came over as soon as he'd left. When I told her TMJ, her eyes lit up and said, "OMG! I didn't even think about that! That would explain so much!" The sad part is that, there's no telling how long this has been going on with him. He just kept getting passed from owner to owner without anyone getting a real vet to figure out what the problem was! Which is, of course, lucky for me, but still! When I told Helen, she agreed that it made total sense. His temperament is AMAZING, really. So it just didn't make sense that he was an absolute saint until you got in the saddle and then simply refused to do anything at all. He just simply couldn't!

So now, I just have to get through the next grueling 2 days to see what happens, but I'm really optimistic. Keep your fingers crossed for us!


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## DanteDressageNerd

Jeesh I can't even imagine your anticipation to see what your boy is like now that his TMJ has been treated! My fingers are crossed and my prayers are with you that this is the magic fix that allows Forrest to be the horse he wants to be! I'm so happy you've come so far in figuring out what's going on with him, I really hope this is it!

Now for the agonizing wait! I can't wait to hear about how he is on Friday!


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## KigerQueen

I have TMJ as a person and i Can relate. it is not fun on "lock up" days. Rocket Apparently has MILD TMJ. BUT it could have been caused by my vet refusing to float his teeth for 4to5 years because of his age... Rocket dose not have bit issues though but he would honestly try to give you a good ride on 3 legs so its hard to gauge him.

DO THE ACUPUNCTURE! AcuPRESSURE helped odie AND negra ALOT. worth a shot! and hold on to that vet GOOD. i would trust a vet who dose chiro work more than just a chiro because they have the medical knowledge as well.

Can you take a vid of the carrot stretches you did? i want to see if ****** issue is a neck issue at all. she is now getting random swelling and lameness in joints (her elbow this last week) and im second guessing the neck issue.


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## Cherrij

OMG. I had to research what is TMJ to understand. Geez. Hopefully the injection helps and Forrest is better on friday


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## Tihannah

@KigerQueen - I will try to get some video for you this weekend! I've always been told to do them before every ride to get the horse loosened up and moving. They really helped a lot with Tess because she was so stiff when I got her.

I went out to see and work with him last night. Helen suggested we do some lunging and groundwork before riding so that he can wrap his head around the idea that it won't hurt when I ride.

I took him in the indoor arena first and free lunged him and let him do some free jumping. OMG, he could not have loved it more. I only had to point him to the jump and he'd square up and then canter right over it. At one point, he was having so much fun, he wouldn't stop! Lol. Just kept going round and round the arena over the ground poles and jumps like, "Look at me, Mom! Wheeee!" lol. He'd stop for a moment, come over and nudge and give me some love, and then take off in a canter again around the arena. He looked so happy. 

Then I took him out, just in his halter, and put him on the lunge line. At first he hesitated. It had gotten so bad, that he wouldn't even lunge anymore. But he took a few steps, realized it was okay, then totally relaxed and went to work. This was honestly the first time I've ever lunged him without any side reins and he wasn't going with his head to the sky. Halter or bit. He was so relaxed and just moving like a normal horse in a nice smooth rhythm. It made me so excited, I got butterflies in my stomach! Lol. Afterwards, we just hung out and hand grazed watching Helen give a lesson. All the pony clubbers are leaving to a rally on Friday, so it will be just me and Helen with the place to ourselves again. We are both anxious to see what happens!

I also spoke to someone on another forum who has had to have 2 horses get TMJ injections. Both were a total success and showed dramatic improvement. She also said they only had to be injected once.

Anyhow, these aren't from last night, but the other day when I couldn't ride and free jumped him. Sorry, they're kinda blurry and the lighting was bad, but you can see how much fun he's having. I seriously can't believe this is really MY horse sometimes! One more day!!


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## Cherrij

Oh, look at him FLY!  Such a happy horse


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## DanteDressageNerd

Oh look at Forrest fly! He looks so happy to be flying over fences!! I hope you find all the pieces to this puzzle and can put it altogether to have a productive and happy partnership! Sometimes it takes time and expense but is worth the investment and investigative work!


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## Tihannah

This weekend has been a total roller coaster of stress and emotions with Forrest! I took off Friday at the last minute so I could spend the day with him. There was no way I was going to be able to make it through an entire day of work stressing about whether or not the TMJ injection had worked. I couldn't even sleep the night before and was up at 5am after tossing and turning most of the night. In my half dream state, I pictured myself tacking him up and riding, and him going like a normal horse - round and on the bit, and like I've always pictured.

I got to the barn around 9am, but I was filled with anxiety and nervous to ride. This could only go one of 2 ways. I took my time tacking him up and decided to lunge him first. He went fairly well in both directions, so I got in the saddle... And it was a total no go. He wasn't outright refusing or backing up anymore, but he would still have NOTHING to do with the bit. He never stopped fighting and never stopped trying to giraffe neck it. I could never get him to hold a rhythm at any gait cause he was too busy trying to get around the bit. I changed out bits 3 times. Made no difference at all. He would have none of it. The disappointment was crushing. How could this be??:-? 

I called the vets office and left a message to have him call me and I texted the osteopath that had been out. He called me that evening. He was adamant that everything we saw pointed to his mouth or jaw. He said I should've gotten a dentist out. That the vet is only going to see obvious problems with the teeth, but a dentist is going to see real problems with the jaw and whats causing it, like imbalance. In the meantime, he said he would talk me through how to unlock the TMJ when I went back to the barn on Saturday. I never heard back from the vet.


Saturday I went back again. Even worse. This time I didn't even get to ride. Tried to lunge him in side reins. Took some coaxing to the left, but I eventually got him going. Every few strides, he'd throw his head up in protest, but he kept going. To the right? Nothing. He wouldn't take more than a couple steps and then outright refuse to go forward. I even took him to the round pen and tried to free lunge. Same thing. He'd go on left lead, but send him right, and he wouldn't move. I even tried just holding the reins and walking beside him. He'd go, but it took a lot and in very slow careful steps. I was beside myself, frustrated, and sick with anxiety about my horse. I called the osteopath that afternoon before leaving and he talked me through 2 methods used to release the TMJ. And finally he said, "Look, I don't know how you feel about this sort of thing, but I trust this person, and only use her as a last resort, but she's the best in the country and can tell you what's going on. Just tell her I gave you her number." And with that, he gave me the name and number of an Animal Communicator. I looked her up when I got home and she had almost 800 reviews. Wow. I booked an appt for next Monday, so I guess we'll see what happens.

And finally...I wasn't going to go out to the barn today. Why go when nothing seemed better and everything we thought it was seemed to be wrong? But again I couldn't sleep and was up at 430am just trying to process everything. I kept going through everything in my head. Why did I get such a good ride on Monday after the chiro if it wasn't his jaw? I watched him adjust his jaw myself? Perhaps his jaw had misaligned again, and even though he was injected, the vet didn't correct the misalignment? So I decided I would go out again and try to do the adjustments. I asked D (my guy) to go with me and maybe he could help.

When we got there I opened his mouth and looked. Really looked. And sure enough his top teeth did not align with the bottom. They were off by at least a half an inch. So I did what the Osteo told me and somehow managed to unlock his jaw, so that when we looked again, the teeth were now aligned. :shock: It was my first time really doing it, so I didn't hold much faith that anything would be different in his performance.

I didn't tack him as I normally do with polo wraps, bell boots and the works. I just threw his saddle and pads and bridle on and took him out to lunge. D and another girl named, Anna, were there to assist. I told Anna that if he lunged okay, I wanted her to get in the saddle to test the back theory again.

To my utter surprise, he lunged BOTH directions totally fine. In fact, better than he had in recent weeks. There was no refusal to go forward, no fighting with him and he did not try to fight the side reins at all. He maintained rhythm and gaits with no fuss. I couldn't believe it. So I decided to go ahead and ride and see what happened.

It was hands down, our best ride ever! Although he was a little tense at first, it only took me massaging his neck for him to relax. He was forward and held a nice gait and rhythm in both directions. Never once did he try to really fight and do the giraffe thing where he's escaping the contact. He would every now and then come up higher than I'd like, and then I'd just massage his neck and he'd relax back down. I didn't ask for much. I didn't want to push it, he was doing so well. I only asked him to keep a training level frame and maintain the gait. I kept a very light contact and praised him A LOT and it was amazing. Before long he became totally relaxed. I did use an aid when we rode, but I purposely left them more loose than normal and he could have easily gotten around them, but he didn't and didn't even try. We had a brilliant 45 min ride and I could not have asked for anything more or been more pleased with him.

Today felt like a giant exhale FINALLY figuring out the pieces to the puzzle of my horse. The Osteo said I will likely need to do the adjustments before ever ride until his jaw stops going whacko or I can can an equine dentist out to fix the issue. Unless, of course, the vet can fix it, which I doubt since he never even noticed it to begin with. I also would still like to do the total body acupuncture as well. I think it could really help.

And finally, I'm really thankful for the Osteopath. What an awesome guy. He has been in touch with me since he worked on Forrest, just trying to help me get through this. Even though he travels from state to state and is always busy with clients, he would always respond to texts and let me know when was a good time to call. He told me he's been doing this for 18 years, but its always been about the horses. I've only ever used him one time, and likely won't see him again till January, but he's gone above and beyond to help me figure out what's wrong with my horse. For me, these kind of people are in the horse industry are few and far between and absolutely invaluable.

I did get video of our ride today, but since I'm using extra aids, I don't want to post here. If anyone is interested, I can send a link through PM. The ride was truly incredible and when I sent the video to Helen, she was amazed, and I'm on cloud 9 right now. Today was a good day.


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## phantomhorse13

I would be interested in seeing it. Hope this is the key!!


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## Tihannah

phantomhorse13 said:


> I would be interested in seeing it. Hope this is the key!!


Sent! I really think it is! You will see!


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## Rainaisabelle

I'd love to see it !!


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## Tihannah

Rainaisabelle said:


> I'd love to see it !!


Sent!


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## Tihannah

For reference, here is a pic of his teeth/jaw today before I did the adjustment. You can see how out of line the top and bottom jaw is.
After I adjusted, the top and bottom teeth lined up perfectly. I should've taken another picture!


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## seabiscuit91

I would love to see it to!
How amazing. Those types of people are so rare and hard to find!


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## DanteDressageNerd

I'm so glad you were able to get help with Forrest, I'm so sorry his jaw is what it is but at least the osteopath was able to work with you to fix it and teach you how to realign it and hopefully it will settle in as the rest adjusts. I hope he continues to feel well and you continue to have such fabulous rides with him! I hope he gains more confidence in his new body as it begins to feel better and better! So glad you have him, I'm sure he's grateful too


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## Tihannah

Just got off the phone with the vet. I think he was really surprised by what I told him about the jaw being misaligned and how the Osteo had me fix it. He reiterated that I should continue with the adjustments as needed, but we are also scheduling an appointment to do the acupuncture as well as starting him on Previcox to help manage the pain. I had Tess on Previcox and she did really well with it, so I'm hoping that combined with the acupuncture will help Forrest as well.


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## PoptartShop

Reading your post had me super worried at first, but I am so thankful you ended up being able to ride and figured out what was going on. I'm so happy that you were able to get help with him & that's just wonderful.
I'd also love to see! PM me!  Yay!!!


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## KigerQueen

with the TMJ and adjusting it there will be some swelling (i know i regret it for days if i chew gum and my jaw seams to swell at the joints...) so privacox should help untill his jaw gets used to being where it is supposed to be. Now how do you adjust it? maybe i can fix my own jaw lol!


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## Tihannah

KigerQueen said:


> with the TMJ and adjusting it there will be some swelling (i know i regret it for days if i chew gum and my jaw seams to swell at the joints...) so privacox should help untill his jaw gets used to being where it is supposed to be. Now how do you adjust it? maybe i can fix my own jaw lol!



Below is a video and at 2:25 it pretty much shows what he told me to do. I honestly didn't think it would really work, but he went from completely unrideable to actually enjoying the work. He did look exhausted after the ride, but it has probably been years since he's been that consistent and worked that long in a normal frame, so I am giving him the day off to relax. If you can picture a giraffe running across the plain, well, that is exactly what Forrest looked like in a canter most times! 

This pic was from a couple weeks ago where Helen was trying to see if she just let him go in a full out gallop, if he would just relax and drop his his head a little. Total no go. He is FLYING around the pasture in this pic and she's not holding him back at all. This is just how he had become accustomed to going in order to protect himself. And you can see from the muscle under his neck that he's been doing this for a long time. :icon_frown:


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## knightrider

Wow. Very impressive.


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## DanteDressageNerd

I can't imagine how much Forrest has dealt with over the course of his life, it could be a combination of perhaps bad training practices and mounting pain issues that were never addressed or who knows. Honestly who knows, maybe he was at many good places and had pain issues no one could figure out? Who knows. I think an animal communicator, especially if they're good might be worth it to know something of his story. 

There is a morgan at the barn who I wonder what his story is because he has such extreme fear reactions that aren't natural to his personality. We have no idea what happened to him and when he lets go you start to see parts of his authentic self and then it's like he snaps back to whatever happened to him. Sometimes it's just a mystery and it affects some more than others, like poor Frankie's mom.

That massage technique is pretty incredible. Definitely something amazing. I'm SO SO glad it's helping and working.


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## NavigatorsMom

What a rollercoaster you've been on with Forrest! He's lucky to have someone so dedicated to figuring out what it takes to get him comfortable and happy.  

And I'd love to see the video from Sunday too


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## Tihannah

Rode again tonight and was nervous that it was gonna be a replay of last week. One good ride and then he was gonna be the same as before. When I got there, I checked his jaw before tacking up and everything still looked in place. Despite this, something told me he was not going to be like Sunday. And I was right...

I decided to put him in a running martingale. I felt like we'd established an understanding on Sunday and I could simply build on it. Boy was I wrong. Despite taking the same approach as Sunday, trying to be easy and massage his neck, he'd had a day off and his energy was back in full force and he simply wasn't having it. Forrest is his name and tonight, giraffe necking was his game. So you know what I did?? I ignored his neck and went straight for the body!

I knew he wasn't hurting because he was still forward, so I went full lateral on him and basically said, "You can do whatever you want with your head, but you better move off my legs!" After about 10 min, I got tired of the restriction to the reins from the running martingale, so I asked a friend to take it off. She looked at me and said, "Really??" Lol. I said, "Yep, I can't work like this."

So we removed it, and with no extra aids at all, I went to work on my boy! I just kept asking for bend and counterbend and leg yield from centerline to wall and shoulder in. He is ridiculously stiff through the body and it took a lot of work, but once I got him bending, the head and neck had no choice but to follow. And we moved from the dressage arena, to the open pasture, to the jump arena, and then back to the dressage arena. I kept his mind and body working the whole time, and you know what? He was learning! Which is something I never felt like was really happening with the aids. In the aids, he knew he couldn't go full giraffe on me, but they didn't really teach him anything. So whenever I took them off, he immediately reverted back. 

When he fought me on the bend, I'd counterbend him making it even harder, so that went I asked him to bend regularly, he went easily. And we stayed at the walk for 90% of it. He'd start trotting bent and round, and then use it to speed up and go giraffe on me, so I'd bring him back to walk and we'd bend some more. We'd go down the long side in shoulder in. And when he did good, I'd pat and praise him, and when he fought, we'd leg yield or counterbend. It literally changed everything.

By the end of the ride, he knew exactly what I expected and stopped trying to go giraffe. He'd go above the vertical, but he wouldn't get ridiculous, and then I'd just bend him, and he'd instantly soften and go into the contact. It was pretty incredible and I was really pleased. It was a real breakthrough! 

We have 10 days till the clinic and lots of homework, but at least now I have a real game plan to work with. Our focus is now going to be getting him more supple through the body. I can't imagine the last time he was asked to really bend and come through and work over his back. It's going to be tough on both of us, but I think we can make some good progress between now and the time John arrives. The vet is coming Monday morning to do the full body acupuncture, so I think that will be beneficial as well.

But here it is. I'm making a vow right here and now. No more extra aids or tools! As long as he's not hurting, we are going to continue using the basics to build a good foundation. I know he can do it. And I know I can do it. And when John comes, I will ask him to ride him too. If anyone can get through to Forrest, it's John. Until then, I'm going to do my best to show him the way.


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## seabiscuit91

That's amazing!
While tools definitely have their place - some horses can get so worked up worried about fighting the tool that they can't seem to focus on anything else. I've seen that with martingales/flashes quite a bit, they're so caught up in not being able to lift their head / open their mouth that's all they try to do. Take them off, let them settle, different horses!


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## Tihannah

seabiscuit91 said:


> That's amazing!
> While tools definitely have their place - some horses can get so worked up worried about fighting the tool that they can't seem to focus on anything else. I've seen that with martingales/flashes quite a bit, they're so caught up in not being able to lift their head / open their mouth that's all they try to do. Take them off, let them settle, different horses!


The aid you saw in the video (if you watched it) is really the only thing that he would go quiet in. And basically because if he fought, he was just fighting himself. But anything that went against my hands was a never ending battle. And I honestly wasn't using anything to try and tie him down, but just not allow him to go so high with his head that he'd almost smack me in the face. When I got him, once he got that high, there was nothing you could do to get him down. He'd lock his poll and neck and then run with you so you're on this 17h horse flying around the arena with his head practically smacking you in the face and not much you can do about it, except try to slow him down. The one benefit of the aids is that they helped to diminish that huge under neck he had. It's definitely not as strong anymore, so that if he goes up, I can actually get him back down and maintain some kinda control.

But yea, last night's ride felt REALLY good, because I honestly felt like he was LEARNING. And when I got him really bending and softening, he was in BOTH reins and not throwing his head or fighting the contact and it felt amazing! It wasn't consistent, of course, but the longer we worked the more he understood what I was asking and followed through and the longer the periods of consistency. From 3-4 strides, to down the entire side of the arena. And by the end, I could change the bend and he followed through and stayed round and didn't try to throw his head up and fight.

So my focus is definitely achieving suppleness and building his strength right now. He's decent in the walk, but the trot is a lot harder. He will go a few strides and then instantly try to revert to the hollow back giraffe and run off with you. I'm just going to remain consistent and build up to it. I think it will all come with time. If anyone has any other exercise suggestions, both in and out of the saddle, please share! Once he gets the acupuncture, I'm going to do another lesson with Helen where we work on this more.


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## PoptartShop

I am glad you are figuring out what works for both you & Forrest! Aids can help, but sometimes it's best to take off all the extra stuff & just go with the motions! 
It sounds like a good plan, and I'm very glad you are not giving up!  & he is learning, and that is great! Good game plan!!!!


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## Tihannah

Sitting at home trying not to worry. Hurricane Nate is headed straight for us. Went to the barn last night and tagged Forrest and collected all my tack. Its supposed to hit us tonight. He'll be out in the pasture with all the other horses. So worried about him.

I live about 2 blocks from the beach and am worried about the projected storm surges. They're saying 8-11 feet now that its been upgraded to a Category 2. Just keeping our fingers crossed and hoping for the best. :-(


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## egrogan

Sending tons of good thoughts your way @Tihannah! Sounds like you're well prepared.


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## knightrider

My heart goes out to you. I've now gotten through 4 hurricanes. It's awful tagging your horse, fighting tears, deciding to leave them in or out, listening to the wind and rain screaming around your house, wondering if you will ever see them again. I pray it all goes well for you. I HATE hurricanes!!!!


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## Tihannah

Definitely over it! This has been the worst hurricane season!


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## Werecat

What an exciting story!! So happy for you, he is absolutely gorgeous and sounds like he has the personality to back those looks up!

Edit:
After reading about the hurricane, sending positive thoughts your way!


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## Tihannah

Hurricane was quick and painless! Woohoo. We never even lost power, no flooding, no wind damage. Neighboring towns had some flooding and power loss, but nothing too bad, from what I can tell. There was a shift at the last minute and it moved us to the east of us. 

BO checked in on FB this morning and said all horses were fine and well and brought in for feeding and checked over.


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## egrogan

What a relief!! That was my experience when I lived in Louisiana through a couple of hurricanes, and they were more cause for a party than anything else-but it was also pre-Katrina...


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## Tazzie

I'm so relieved you and Forrest are ok! How scary! Thank you for letting us all know you guys were ok <3


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## Cherrij

Great to hear you are ok!


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## Tihannah

Uggghhh...one thing after another!

Vet came yesterday and did the total body acupuncture on Forrest. He also added the electric currents to his head and neck areas. Gave him the day off and planned to head out after work today and see the results.

Not long after I get to work this morning, the barn manager calls me. She said Forrest didn't want to come in this morning. He's usually the first at the gate and refuses to let anyone else go before him. He finally decided to come up around 9:30. They bring the horses in around 730-8am. She said he just played with his food, not really eating it. His heart rate and breathing was elevated and he just didn't seem himself so she took his temp. 102.5.

I called the vet thinking maybe the acupuncture had had some kind of adverse effect on him. The vet said he'd never had any adverse effects and thought it may be just coincidence. He did notice that during the treatment, Forrest had expelled a big glob of snot and thought he may have a sinus infection. He told me to give him bute or Previcox to bring down the fever and to start him on a round of antibiotics for 5 days.

Barn manager has been periodically texting me throughout the day to let me know how he's doing. Last text said that he seems to be getting better. His breathing and pulse are pretty much the same, but he seems more comfortable now. He's nibbling on hay, but she's waiting for him to poop, before giving him some food. Gonna head out as soon as I can get out of work. My poor guy. :-(


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## PoptartShop

Glad you & mister Forrest are okay & safe!  Aw...I'm sorry to hear that I hope he feels better asap. :sad: It is that time of year for sinus infections. Poor thing. I'm sure he will be happy to see his momma & get some snuggles! <3
Fingers crossed he continues to feel better!!!


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## carshon

I hope Forest comes around. his is quite the story - and it makes me happy to read all that you have done for him.


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## KigerQueen

yep it is one thing after another. i have 4 horses and the only one who is CONSISTENTLY ridable is the 32 year old... and this rate im retiring odie at 10 and giveing up on riding untill im down to two horses and THAT wont be untill im in my 30s...


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## Rainaisabelle

Tihannah said:


> Uggghhh...one thing after another!
> 
> Vet came yesterday and did the total body acupuncture on Forrest. He also added the electric currents to his head and neck areas. Gave him the day off and planned to head out after work today and see the results.
> 
> Not long after I get to work this morning, the barn manager calls me. She said Forrest didn't want to come in this morning. He's usually the first at the gate and refuses to let anyone else go before him. He finally decided to come up around 9:30. They bring the horses in around 730-8am. She said he just played with his food, not really eating it. His heart rate and breathing was elevated and he just didn't seem himself so she took his temp. 102.5.
> 
> I called the vet thinking maybe the acupuncture had had some kind of adverse effect on him. The vet said he'd never had any adverse effects and thought it may be just coincidence. He did notice that during the treatment, Forrest had expelled a big glob of snot and thought he may have a sinus infection. He told me to give him bute or Previcox to bring down the fever and to start him on a round of antibiotics for 5 days.
> 
> Barn manager has been periodically texting me throughout the day to let me know how he's doing. Last text said that he seems to be getting better. His breathing and pulse are pretty much the same, but he seems more comfortable now. He's nibbling on hay, but she's waiting for him to poop, before giving him some food. Gonna head out as soon as I can get out of work. My poor guy. :-(


Hope he gets better quickly! So glad the hurricane was over quickly


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## Tihannah

Okay....where to begin??

Sooo...Forrest seems to be almost completely over the sinus infection, though not 100% so we haven't pushed him too hard. This weekend was the clinic with John and am REALLY so glad he came because he was able to really get to the root of the issue with Forrest.

Despite the chiro, and Osteopath, and 2 vets, and injections, and acupuncture... Forrest is still fighting the bit and trying to go giraffe. I firmly believe that he was in some sort of pain at some point, but that has since been resolved. He no longer refuses or rears, he just won't relax into the bit. My vet is stumped.

So in comes John... John rides approximately 10-12 horses per day, 6 days a week, and when I tell you he knows horses, I mean he KNOWS horses. He is the one that discovered the stifle issue with Tess when the vet missed it during the PPE. He can get in the saddle and FEEL when something is wrong. He can watch a horse go and SEE where the problem lies. So yesterday, he rode Forrest for 45 minutes, and we all just sat and watched. At the end of the ride, he got off and asked for some things on the ground. When he was done he walked up and said, "I have good news and bad news, depending on how you want to take it." :-?

He said the good news is that Forrest is absolutely physically sound. He tested everything from his jaw, to his neck, to his back, and his hind. He said the way this horse can step over and under himself is ridiculous. He had no issue getting him to sit back on his hind or use his back. He said that IF there was a problem with his jaw before, there isn't now, and that he is super flexible in his neck and poll.

He said the bad news is that Forrest has a HUGE mental block that is preventing him from going onto the bit. In his mind, going like a giraffe is the only way he CAN go. He also said that his temperament is also what makes it so difficult to fix. Because Forrest never gets upset or explodes. He said if Forrest at least exploded, then you could fight with him and say, "Look, THIS is the way it has to be." But he doesn't, so you're stuck with him constantly trying to do what he thinks you want, but in his own way - above the bit, like a giraffe. :-( He said he absolutely can go forward onto the bit and there's nothing physically preventing him from doing it. In the end, he said the same thing the upper level eventer said that I did the clinic with in August. He NEEDS to stay in the aids. He has to be kept in the aids until he forgets that going like a giraffe is even an option. His rough estimate is at least a year... :-( And I know some people on here may disagree with that, and that's fine, but these two trainers - one has competed at Rolex and John has a bereiter's license and trained with the best in Germany for 3 years. Both have seen and worked with Forrest in person. Both agree that this is not the traditional way of re-training a horse, but Forrest's situation is waaay outside the norm of behavioral problems and require a bit more than traditional methods call for. I trust their judgment.

So anyhow, this was yesterday. And he says, "I wanna try something tomorrow just to prove my theory..."

So today, we tried again. This time I got in the saddle and we put him back in the aids. He couldn't go all the way up, but he'd still try every 3-4 strides. Then John came with a pocket full of treats and hand fed him a couple. Then he took the reins while I sat in the saddle and legged him forward. We did half a circle, with John working the reins and no head tossing, so he gave him a treat. Then we walked a good half circle, he got another treat. Forrest forgot about me. We did a full 20 meter circle with Forrest up in a frame and he never tossed or tried to come off the bit once. Gave him a treat. Then we picked up the trot. The first circle, John ran beside us, holding the reins as I would in the saddle. Not a single bit of fuss. Then he let go and I immediately took the slack. We trotted two 20m circles in a lovely frame on the contact and Forrest never tossed his head until he REMEMBERED that I was there! Everyone watching was in awe. Because we all SERIOUSLY believed it was something physically preventing him from going like a normal horse. You see, John used the treats to basically distract him from what he THINKS he was supposed to do, which is go like a giraffe! So instead of fighting the contact, he was trotting beside John watching for when he might toss out another treat! Lol. And when we came to a halt, John turned to me and said, "THAT just 100% confirmed for me that it's all mental."

Initially, he said that he thinks that this can take 2 years to retrain. He said the mental block is THAT bad. But after today, he wasn't so sure anymore. We made some leeway with the treats. Oh! And he did something else after the treat exercise. He said to me, "He was at a western barn?" I nodded. So he removed everything from the bridle except the bit and headstall. The noseband and flash are gone. "Western riders don't use nosebands." And remarkably, Forrest seemed to relax even more. I was able to get him to walk, without John, several 20m circles without tossing his head, so John called it and said, "Let's end it on a good note."

He said my homework for the next week is to keep him in this bare bones bridle, at a walk, only asking him to go forward in a relaxed frame - 30 min tops. He wants me to get sugar cubes and a friend to help, so that he can be rewarded for staying on the bit. He said once we've succeeded at the walk, then we can move to trot. He thinks the treats will help a lot by helping him to connect staying round and on the bit as a positive thing to be rewarded for.

Getting someone to help will be the difficult part. I ride after work a lot and am usually one of the last people at the barn and riding alone. Even when there are people there, I don't have anyone to help out, so I don't know. I guess I'll have to figure something out. Tomorrow is the last day of the clinic, but we won't be using Forrest again. Another boarder has offered to let me ride her horse, since I haven't been able to get any real saddle time with John to work on ME, so I'm kinda excited about that. Afterwards, I will work with Forrest again and see if we can make some more progress.


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## seabiscuit91

Wow, how interesting hearing it all. This poor guy has obviously been taught to giraffe and thinks he's doing the right thing.

I'm not surprised he said it can take a couple years (I hope for your sake it doesn't) but I've been watching a lot of videos regarding overbent horses who are forced BTV for so long, that there's such a mental block there they can't go without it. The man who rescues these animals says it can take 1-3 years of basics, to get them back, sometimes only lunging for the first year because of all the issues it caused.
So opposite problem to yours, but may be similar mentality. (If you're at all interested its the YouTube channel called Arttoride)

Makes sense with the flash / nose band to! What a great thing to pick up on.. Obviously just an extra thing he's trying to argue with!

He's so lucky to have you, and don't worry if you need aids to help, he's obviously a very special case, and you're clearly doing absolutely everything you can for this horse.


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## evilamc

I usually just read and don't post...but if treats seem to help maybe clicker training would? I know some people attach the clicker to their whip...click when doing something right...horse knows reward is coming but it gives you time to give it? By clicking you're able to tell them that exact second that what they're doing is right but then it gives you a few seconds to reward. Maybe if you started off doing it more often it would keep him focused on earning those clicks? May make it easier when you have to work with him alone? You'll have to do a little bit of pre-requisite work to introduce it all and help him understand how it works but it could help a lot?! Its the only thing that helped me over come some things with one of my horses.


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## Tihannah

@SeaBiscuit Yes! I'm familiar with ArttoRide and have watched several of their videos. I feel better now in that at least I know for sure now. Otherwise I would have continued the guessing game racking up more and more vet bills! John has also dealt with horses with kissing spine and he was certain that wasn't it either, so that was a relief!

@evilmc that's a great idea! I clicker trained my German shepherd when he was a puppy and couldn't believe how fast he learned things! Something I will definitely try!


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## phantomhorse13

Can you give the treats from the saddle if you don't have anybody on the ground to help?


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## Tihannah

phantomhorse13 said:


> Can you give the treats from the saddle if you don't have anybody on the ground to help?


My apprehension with that is that he would keep stopping to swing around back to me looking for a treat. I don't think it would work very well giving it myself, but I don't mind trying anything at this point! Lol


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## Tihannah

Again, I do know that a teen had him for 2 years as a jumper. The position that he goes in is very similar to that you see in a lot of horses right before they go over a jump. I saw one of Helen's horses doing it today when they were jumping. She'll go really smooth and round in a dressage frame and then as soon as she gets close to the jump, her nose goes skyward right before launch. One of the girls even shouted, "She looks like Forrest!!" Lol.

But it made me think that perhaps this girl put him in some really harsh bits and may have been really heavy handed on the jump course, to the point that he now believes that's the way he's supposed to go?


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## evilamc

Tihannah said:


> My apprehension with that is that he would keep stopping to swing around back to me looking for a treat. I don't think it would work very well giving it myself, but I don't mind trying anything at this point! Lol


As long as you teach WHEN its ok to look for the treat, I think you'll be ok! You can always slowly wean him off too if it is working.

Just start on the ground with little things with the clicker. Then when you're ready for trying mounted tape the clicker to your whip and have a treat bag  Buckeys makes GREAT low sugar treats that are like the perfect size for clicker training too.

You may have some fun teaching him a few little tricks on the ground too!


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## Rainaisabelle

http://clickertraining.org Have a look at this website it's run by Georgia Bruce who is an experienced clicker trainer.


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## phantomhorse13

Tihannah said:


> My apprehension with that is that he would keep stopping to swing around back to me looking for a treat.


Just put it on command - I use "cookie" (very original, right?!). I sometimes use treats from the saddle, mainly to reinforce standing still for mounting (which my DH didn't do with his boys and it made me bonkers so I had to fix it) or for bravely standing despite some kind of monster (mainly used for my reactive guy). At this point, they don't get a treat if they are bent around begging for it, only after I say the word and then lean over to offer it. 

I did allow the bending around looking for it to begin with when I was correcting the moving during mounting as that distracted them from moving. Being pushy or touching me with lips/face/etc was never ok, but they already know that from behavior I expect on the ground. If Forrest isn't a jerk about treats on the ground, he shouldn't be from the saddle either.


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## Tihannah

Oh...how many times can Forrest prove us wrong?? Let me count the ways... 

Today was the last day of the clinic. I rode my friend's 7 yr old, somewhat green, chestnut TB gelding who is kind of a jerk and has never done dressage. She's a hunter or jumper. Whatever you wanna call it. I made it through 40 minutes and 6 bucks before he got me off. I got back on and finished the ride on a good note. My tailbone is sooo sore. Will likely never ride that jerk again! Lol. But that's neither here nor there. Let me get to the GOOD stuff!!

The friend that let me use her horse has wanted to jump Forrest since the day I got him and is determined to steal him from me. Lol. So since she let me use her horse, I asked her if she wanted to go ahead and jump him today. She likes to remind me that in HER discipline, they don't need contact so she doesn't care what his head is doing. Lol. So I told her to have at it, and she got him tacked up in her jump saddle and headed out.

Of course, this was the first time Forrest had ever been jumped, so we managed to gather a small crowd to see what he would do. Now, this friend is about 10 years older than me and has been riding a LONG time. Just not in dressage. Forrest has been with a lot of jumpers, so I thought this would be a really fun day for him. She worked him on the flat for about 10-15 minutes and believe it or not, she actually got him to soften for a few strides several times. Then she attacked the jump course. Nothing too big, but Forrest really surprised us. It wasn't just that the jumps were easy peasy for him, but he is also a very quiet and careful jumper. Many times, you will see horses that speed up and throw their heads up as they approach a jump. Forrest was quite the opposite. He would drop his head and approach carefully to get his stride right. You could see that he was totally in his element!

Once Helen saw this, she just had to try him out, so the friend turned him over to her. But, of course, Helen is a dressage/eventer and she simply could not ignore the head and pretend like it wasn't ridiculous. Lol. So she went back to working him on the flat, but she posted up in a 2 point position and positioned her hands low and wide to simulate side reins, and just kept pushing him into them. The more she did it, the softer he got, and when he relaxed, she'd take him over a jump, then work on the flat again, then take him over a jump, and work on the flat again. Before long, she was able to bring her hands up to his withers with very little fuss. He stopped trying to go giraffe! It was crazy! lol. 

My phone camera kept dying in the video because I had taken so much during the clinic and I didn't have a lot of power left, but I did manage to get a lot of flatwork stills and one decent jumping pic. I honestly can't explain what happened today except that maybe we made some kinda breakthrough the past 2 days with John and today just added another level of icing to the cake. Lol. As soon as we got him untacked, I messaged John and sent him the video of Helen riding him. Basically like, "You're not gonna believe this!" Lol. 

What was so bittersweet? In the end, after we finished and Helen got off, a 14 yr old girl, who is probably my favorite barn rat and just LOVES Forrest, asked if she could hop on and walk him back to the barn with me. I said sure, just don't get nervous if he giraffes it again, cause she didn't want me to hold him. I helped her in the saddle, and then we walked from the jump arena ALL the way back to the barn, which is no less than say 80 yards, and Forrest never threw his head up once!! Go figure! This horse is TRULY an anamoly!! Lol.


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## Golden Horse

I think life with Forrest will never be boring!

Keep un packing the puzzle, maybe you are going to have to start jumping....maybe he wants to be an eventer?


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## Tihannah

Golden Horse said:


> I think life with Forrest will never be boring!
> 
> Keep un packing the puzzle, maybe you are going to have to start jumping....maybe he wants to be an eventer?


That's exactly what I was thinking! I think I would really enjoy doing eventing with him. Just the thought of having to buy all whole other set of tack makes me dizzy though! Lol.


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## Tihannah

Regarding the TB gelding I rode in the clinic... Forrest is 10 times easier to ride! Lol. Despite his crazy neck and head, Forrest is a willing partner without a mean bone in his body. This horse was not only green, but lazy, and had way too much attitude. The bucks were just from trying to keep him forward! He refused to maintain a gait so it was constantly leg, leg, leg then he'd try to run, then you bring him back, and he'd try to stop. Then you hard leg to get him going and he'd buck. 20m circles were so unbalanced - falling in and out and keeping him in a straight line down the rail was like trying to steer a drunk person straight. It was like riding Tess with an attitude. Lol. 

Forrest on the other hand, once you put him in a gait, he stays there until you tell him to stop. You may have to slow him down a bit, but you never have to MAKE him go. He never gets upset or tries to get you off. He's VERY balanced and can pretty much do 20m circles on his own. You only need to look or move your hips in the direction you want to go and he's with you. I didn't even realize how spoiled I'd become with Forrest!

I uploaded a small clip of Helen's ride on him. I added some funky Youtube music just so you guys didn't have to hear my silly commentary in the background and woohooing at my horse! Lol.She went over a couple jumps at the end. She and I are gonna meet up again today to see if I can keep this going. I love this **** horse so much and refuse to give up on him!


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## Dragoon

What a beautiful animal! 
And he's trying so hard to please, the re-training year will be gone before you know it! All these challenges are making you a far better horsewoman than you would if you had gotten a no-issues horse. Gifts come in strange forms. And now you are going to learn to jump.  I'm glad you are going to broaden your horsey experience. It will be fun! Which is why we do all this and spend so much anyways. 
Cheers!


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## SketchyHorse

I've just been kinda lurking & reading - I love all your updates, even when it's a bad day. You give this horse everything & it's just awesome 

He looks so good! Springy, relaxed. C'mon over to the dark side  That video really reminded me of my WB mare, although she was _not_ as pretty of a mover as him (she was more hunter like). She was kinda the same way though. Really tense on the flat or doing Dressage work. If I just kinda asked her to go low with no contact she would come through her back & after a couple jumps _really_ warmed up where I could actually collect her. Maybe some free jumping once a week could help as well. Wouldn't surprise me if the jumping home was where he started the giraffe thing. You can kinda see it when he jumps like he's expecting to be caught in the mouth right before & after.

He's looking great though! You can do it!!!


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## Tihannah

SketchyHorse said:


> I've just been kinda lurking & reading - I love all your updates, even when it's a bad day. You give this horse everything & it's just awesome
> 
> He looks so good! Springy, relaxed. C'mon over to the dark side  That video really reminded me of my WB mare, although she was _not_ as pretty of a mover as him (she was more hunter like). She was kinda the same way though. Really tense on the flat or doing Dressage work. If I just kinda asked her to go low with no contact she would come through her back & after a couple jumps _really_ warmed up where I could actually collect her. Maybe some free jumping once a week could help as well. Wouldn't surprise me if the jumping home was where he started the giraffe thing. You can kinda see it when he jumps like he's expecting to be caught in the mouth right before & after.
> 
> He's looking great though! You can do it!!!


That's EXACTLY what I said!! I've seen some old pics of him jumping and I know they had him in harsher bits. In one pic, it looked like he was in an elevator bit or something with double reins attached? He is not a horse that needs that much equipment at all. We were jumping him in a Happy Mouth D-Ring! But he's a big horse and he's strong and he's been ridden by a lot of youngsters, so I can just imagine that they were pretty heavy handed. But I do think that this can be really good for him!

And thank you! Keeping a journal through this is kind of like therapy for me. It's nice to have people to share this with that can either relate or understand your struggles.


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## Golden Horse

Lol, I just watched the video, seems like you do own a jumper, he enjoyed that


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## knightrider

It's so exciting to read of your challenges and adventures. What a lot you have learned! Forrest is amazing, and I am so pleased that things are coming together--not to mention how interesting it is for us Horse Forum members to read about it!


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## Tihannah

The weather today was 68 degrees and I took the day off from work, so me and Helen had the place to ourselves. We put Forrest in a jump saddle and Helen taught me how to 2-point and explained what she did yesterday to get him to soften and stop doing the giraffe thing. She was riding her own horse and just giving me instruction from the saddle. Holy cow is it hard to stay in 2pt! Lol. My legs were like jelly when I got off!! 

The good news is that she definitely made a breakthrough with Forrest. And I really had to retrain myself on how to react to his sky kissing, but here is what we learned:

As long as your hands are low, and you keep him forward and your hands steady, it only takes a soft half halt and release to get him to soften and drop his head. I was baffled the first time I did it. Lol. Are you kidding me?? Literally, just a squeeze from the ring finger and full release and down came the head. You have to constantly repeat this and push him forward until it becomes more consistent. And if you do it before he thinks to throw his head up, well, then he doesn't! Lol. Once he is good and warmed up, really moving, and becoming consistent, then you can start to add more and more consistent contact.

It doesn't happen quickly though. Lol. But so here's what happened. We started without the aids, and then at some point, Helen thought we should try them and see if he did better than yesterday. I had them on him for about 10-15 minutes, and I swear, it only made it worse. Whereas before, we were negotiating about the contact and working through give and release. I felt like once we added the aids, he couldn't hear me at all because he was too focused on the fact that the aids were restricting him. So I took them off. I also took off his noseband again. All from the saddle. Just tossed them in the field. Lol. And THEN we went to work. Took him out to the jump arena again and we got the conversation going. It was so much easier without the aids. And I'm telling you, he wants to, he really does, he's just fighting what he's always known, but he tries so hard. We went from 3-4 strides to 8-10 strides. I was able to go from 2pt, to sitting back in the saddle and posting. We went from the jump arena, to the open area, circled around the dressage arena, then back towards the barn and circled the barn twice. And I gotta tell you, it was probably our best ride without any extra aids or anything. We were walking and trotting like a normal horse 75% of the time and I had worked up to having contact in both reins!

He was doing so well, I didn't want to quit! Lol. It just kept getting better and better. But when I did, I looked at Helen and said, "I don't think this is gonna take 2 years. Or even 1 year." She agreed with me. We also agreed that we don't think Forrest would ever be happy as just a dressage horse. He clearly loves jumping and we both think he would make a nice eventer. So Helen is going to start teaching me to jump. I think it will be really good for him.

For the first time, I feel like he's finally starting to understand. It's still hard for him, but he at least he's trying. So as of right now, I'm really on the fence about tomorrow and giving him the day off, which was originally my plan. But historically, every time I've felt like I've gotten somewhere with Forrest and given him the following day off, I come back to ground zero. Like it never happened. So I almost feel like I should try one more time tomorrow to build on it. 3 consistent and consecutive days of the same type work and then give him off?? He was so much fun today. I really hate to lose it. :-/


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## seabiscuit91

Yesss! Before i read this last post i was like yessd please do eventing! He looks like such a willing jumper!
If i were you i wouldn't give him a day off, you could always just do a quick ride instead of completely off? 

Have fun with your jumping lessons!!


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## jaydee

I haven't looked in for a while so interesting to see how things have developed
You have one huge advantage in that he doesn't have a meltdown when you do things to try to bring his head where you want it to be - I know you mentioned that if he did you'd have something to fight over but trust me - you don't want that sort of attitude. When this mare we have has her days when she goes all negative about listening to the rider she gets all anxious and tense then you never know what she's going to do when you start correcting her, including ending up with her on the floor because she's lost all self control.


His jumping looks a real bonus, he's relaxed and enjoys it. I think its probably a much better direction for him - put the round peg in the round hole!!
He's the sort of horse that we would have hunted all season in the UK, sometimes that takes their mind of things like what's in their mouth and they stop focusing on it and before you know it the problem's solved itself


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## Tihannah

jaydee said:


> I haven't looked in for a while so interesting to see how things have developed
> You have one huge advantage in that he doesn't have a meltdown when you do things to try to bring his head where you want it to be - I know you mentioned that if he did you'd have something to fight over but trust me - you don't want that sort of attitude. When this mare we have has her days when she goes all negative about listening to the rider she gets all anxious and tense then you never know what she's going to do when you start correcting her, including ending up with her on the floor because she's lost all self control.
> 
> 
> His jumping looks a real bonus, he's relaxed and enjoys it. I think its probably a much better direction for him - put the round peg in the round hole!!
> He's the sort of horse that we would have hunted all season in the UK, sometimes that takes their mind of things like what's in their mouth and they stop focusing on it and before you know it the problem's solved itself


I agree. I've always been apprehensive about learning to jump just because of the risk part of it. I see the younger girls at my barn fall off all the time! Lol. At my age, I just wouldn't bounce back as quickly as the teens. However, Helen thinks Forrest is the perfect horse for me to learn on just because he's so quiet and careful. He is also a horse I feel 100% safe on. I mean, he stood completely still yesterday while I hung over his neck removing the aids and his noseband. I trust him to take care of me, and I want him to be happy and enjoy his work. And if that takes learning a new discipline while still being able to do dressage, then I'm all for it! :smile:


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## KigerQueen

maybe do flat work and then "reward" him with a jump here or there and at the end of the flat work session take him over the jump course/ he loves it and use that as a reward?

When i work rocket, even at 32 years old, his reward is to got a couple laps around the arena and a FAST trot (or pace) because ALL he wants to do is go fast and i keep keeping him slow (not for him but for me ****!).


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## Rainaisabelle

You could also include pole work into your flat work? It could relax him a bit ! I have this really cool book it's like 101 jumping exercises. Their is also a fb page called I think horse physio and they have some awesome pole configurations you can use I bet he would love it!


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## Rainaisabelle

The clover leaf pattern the eventer used to make me do with Roy was amazing, it really helped him give and soften !


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## jaydee

Just a thought on the Happy Mouth bit - I really like them for horses that seem anxious about contact but I found that their 'loose ring shaped mullen mouth' one worked *a lot* better than the single and double jointed or the eggbutt shaped mullen mouth which is quite thick in the corners of the mouth. The Racing D looks fairly similar in thickness to the loose ring but I haven't seen one 'for real' yet. The Kimberwick version is similar in thickness to the loose ring
When I bought Lou she wouldn't accept contact at all, she had a fixed headset but very good self carriage.
She didn't do that giraffe thing but any attempt at even a light dressage type contact resulted in her having her chin on her chest. 
The mullen mouth bit was the starting point in changing that


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## Tihannah

@jaydee - you mean something like this? I have tried probably 8-10 different bits with him, including a couple mullens, and so far have not found anything he goes "great" in.

He has a super fat tongue and seems to prefer the rubber or happy mouth type bits. The only problem is that they are so soft, that he doesn't have issue with yanking or pulling at your hands. I haven't tried this particular one, but I will see if Helen or my other friend has it in their arsenal.

John doesn't think the equipment has anything to do with it. He pretty much goes the same in the softest bit to bits with more leverage. The only difference I've seen is that if you put him in a bit with more leverage, since he can't really yank at your hands, he will refuse to go forward. 

We had a decent enough ride last night. I've found that you have to really get him going and warmed up good before you have anything to really work with. Once I've done about 8-10 trot laps with him and then a couple rounds at canter, and he is more in front of the leg, then I have more leeway in the negotiation process.

I also rode with treats last night and he did surprisingly well. We'd work and then I'd get a good halt on the bit and then reward him. He didn't try to continuously look for treats or stop to reach back either. I'm going to try and pick up a clicker today. I think it will be much more effective in helping me mark the behavior I am asking for.


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## jaydee

That's the one.
I think I have more bits than Dover Saddlery!!
I tried Lou in the single and double jointed Happy Mouth but they didn't help and I tried the eggbutt mullen mouth and she hated that as it was too thick I think but when I used the loose ring she seemed to change, took a while, but from the get go she didn't object to it and gradually seemed to find confidence and started to accept contact. 
I had a few worrying moments when she got excited on the trails and I had no brakes as she can canter with her chin on her chest but she listens to verbal cues really well and responded to 'whoa' very quickly


K is a different problem altogether. She seems afraid of contact and sticks her nose in the air to avoid it or she snatches on your hands to avoid it - which seems silly because that must hurt her mouth. If you use anything that forces the situation like leverage bits, combi bits, draw reins etc she either goes forwards like a pogo stick, little jittery short strides or she runs backwards and will go over if she loses her balance
You can walk her on a loose rein and she's fine but unlike Forrest, if you up the pace to trot she'll just go faster and faster until she'd be bolting if you weren't careful. She knows voice cues on the lunge really well but ignores them from the saddle
Sometimes we've changed the bit and she's gone great for a couple of rides and then back to square one


Forrest looks a much calmer sort and so you'll get there eventually


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## Tihannah

Progress is definitely being made!!

Gave Forrest 2 days off and rode last night. I used a running martingale just in case. I was pleasantly surprised that once I got in the saddle, I was able to ride him on a loose rein, from the barn all the way to the jump arena without him trying to go up. He was relaxed and just walking like a normal horse. This is something I’ve never been able to do with him. Usually, once I get in the saddle, whether I pick up the reins or not, it only takes a few strides before he’s going giraffe on me, so I think we are building some trust and understanding. 🙂

Now, once I started picking up the reins, of course, he tried to object, but it wasn’t difficult to get him to soften. We did some really good trot work and worked on our walk - halts a bit. That needs A LOT of work. Apparently, nobody thought it essential to teach him a good halt. I know that for the couple months I rode at a hunter barn, they taught me that halt was pulling back on the reins until they stopped. That will never fly in dressage and I hate it. How can I teach him to give and be soft if I have to yank on his mouth to get him to whoa?? So we worked on trying to get him to listen to my seat and half halts and verbal cues for the whoa. In the trot, I got him to really stretch down a few times for a few strides. He seemed like he wanted to so bad, but then he’d pop back up like, “Nope, supposed to giraffe neck it!” Lol. It’s interesting watching him try to work through it.

Anyhow, just wanted to post a quick update. My guy is going out with me today, so hopefully we’ll get some good video! Fingers crossed!🤞


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## Tihannah

Rode a little yesterday, but it wasn't great. Nothing to phone home about. Lol. I decided to spend more time on the lunge instead and employed one of the barn rats to help. She has been wanting to sit on Forrest since I got him and was more than happy to volunteer. He again proved to us that it is definitely a roadblack in his mind, although I did note some things during the lunging. 

He used to be more difficult going left. Now he is harder going right. This seemed to happen after his adjustment with the Osteopath. I really need to find someone good locally that can adjust him more regularly for me, but going right, it's harder to get him bending and off his inside shoulder. Maybe some of you more experienced people can watch the video and let me know what you see. Even Alex, the girl riding, said she could feel him putting too much weight on his inside shoulder. He also doesn't want to flex his pole to the inside going right. When we go left, he will stretch down and come over his back more. Going right, I have to work him longer to get him to start stretching down, and even then, its not as good as when he's going left.

But you will see in the video, that other than the things noted above, nothing much changes between having a rider and not having a rider on the lunge. He pretty much goes the same. It is only when you remove the lunge line and add reins (changing nothing else) that he begins the giraffe mode and acting like he can't move forward. Alex really wanted to try, so I took her in the indoor and let her try him off the lunge. He, of course, was nothing like you see here. His head was practically smacking her in the face and she couldn't keep him forward unless she allowed him to giraffe. Even in the side reins. I tried to talk her through getting him to relax and drop his head with methods that Helen and I have used, but until you have ridden him, it's hard for regular people to grasp that normal methods simply don't work with Forrest. He has mastered the art of evasion for many years. I ended up having to hop on him myself and get him to relax and basically say, "NO! That is not allowed." 

Helen's theory is that I need to buy a jump saddle and only ride him in 2pt. She thinks that this combined with the low and wide reins are what got him to soften and that we need to just get off his back. I, however, disagree, and I think this video of Alex on him on the lunge proves it. She is not in 2pt and riding in my dressage saddle in a normal position. I think with Helen's method, her weight is shifted towards the front, pushing him onto the forehand and then promoting it with the low wide reins that simulate side reins. But he is still fighting any contact. The position is also painful to ride in for any amount of time. Lol.

What I need is a better approach. To somehow translate his way of going with a rider on the lunge to going the same off the lunge. You can see him tossing his head here and there about the contact, but it is not the same as when he's off the lunge. Off the lunge, you literally have to knock the fight out of him. Just constant trot work with some canter for about 25 minutes, before you can soften the resistance. It's pretty exhausting, and even then, not consistent. Anyhow, here is the video. And yes, despite all this, I still love the hell outta this horse! He's amazing! Lol.


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## KigerQueen

he is looking good though. might just take time. i taught my arab the verbal command to "drop it". and she got a treat EVERY TIME she dropped her head. she used to giraffe BAD. But once she learnt that head down was a GOOD thing and she had a verbal command it just morphed from there. maybe try it? that way when he has a moment you can say "drop it" and he knows he was given the new ok to put his head down?
Also what vid program are you using?


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## Tihannah

KigerQueen said:


> he is looking good though. might just take time. i taught my arab the verbal command to "drop it". and she got a treat EVERY TIME she dropped her head. she used to giraffe BAD. But once she learnt that head down was a GOOD thing and she had a verbal command it just morphed from there. maybe try it? that way when he has a moment you can say "drop it" and he knows he was given the new ok to put his head down?
> Also what vid program are you using?


That's kinda the same premise I wanna do with the clicker training. I just need to get my butt over to Petsmart to get a dang clicker! Lol.

The program I used is iMovie (Apple). I normally use Movie Maker on Windows, but I've always liked iMovie better, and I recently got an iPad so now I have both options.


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## Tihannah

Really super ride tonight! There is definitely a breakthrough happening. It's hard for me not to get excited and try to ask for more, but Forrest will quickly remind me not to get ahead of myself! Lol.

Our biggest accomplishment thus far is simply being able to walk on a loose rein like a normal horse. Lol. Probably seems silly for some, but for me, it feels amazing and I probably give him about 10 pats and tons of praise during our walks. Tonight we walked from the barn to the jump arena and then a couple laps around the jump arena on a loose rein with no giraffing. He finally seems to understand that he doesn't need to tense up and anticipate on a loose rein.

After a couple laps I picked up the reins, and of course, he extended the neck and then the head went up. I ignored the head and we picked up the trot. I kept him forward and would just lightly ask for the soften. Repeatedly. Eventually, we ended up doing several trot laps in both direction with no giraffe. And I gotta tell you, at one point, we were really "in the zone". I found his comfort spot, which consisted of about 2oz of contact (if that!) and I managed to keep it steady and he really settled. I'd pat and praise him and we just kept it going. I didn't want to stop because he was going so smooth and consistent. Mind you, he's not in any kind of frame, but he was relaxed and not tense and not trying to run from the contact. I can usually at least expect him to toss his head when we change directions, but not tonight. I was steady eddy, so he was steady eddy. Unlike my first horse Tess, it's so easy to want to keep going with him, because he never stops until you ask. He never slows down either, so you can just take your legs off and ride.

At one point, a barn friend came over to talk, so I put him in a halt. He doesn't really like to just stand around, so he kept attempting to walk off and then I'd have to bring him back with more rein action. Of course, he'd object to the contact, so the friend says, "You need to put him in side reins." I tell her that he does better without them and that I can't communicate with him when he feels restricted. She's not hearing me at all. Says she has a standing martingale I can try. I just say, "Okay," to wave her off and then we go back to our ride. Not long later, she comes back with her martingale. So again, I tell her that he's doing well, and I don't want to put them on him right now. She still proceeds to try and fit him in them. Says she just wants to see something. :| Thankfully, she rides a pony, and they didn't fit. This is what I know. I've tried the various aids for 3 months and have seen zero progression with him. It is only since I've stopped using them, that he has gotten better with each ride. 

I think John is correct in that Forrest has a HUGE mental block regarding the contact. But I don't think restricting him is the answer. When he's restricted, it's like that's all he can focus on and nothing I do seems to get through to him. It's only when he's without any aids that I can negotiate and say, "If you soften, then I'll soften." I think we have a long road ahead of us and a lot of trust to build, but at least I'm chipping away at the block now.


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## carshon

@Tihannah I appreciate your retrospective posts. Helping a horse through past trauma's takes a special rider. I am so happy that Forrest is trying and giving you some glimpses into the horse he will become.

I do not ride at the same level as you but did purchase a horse with a traumatic past. It took a long time to get her over what had happened to her - but once she did our relationship was fantastic and she was my go to horse for many years. 

You can do this and the rewards will be plenty!


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## Tihannah

Another absolutely fantastic ride tonight! Another chip off the block. We are really starting to figure each other out. I shot out of work early today. The weather was amazing and I didn't have a lot going on, so I just cut outta there.

I took Forrest in a new area. This area isn't used much even though its fantastic. Just a big fenced area that pushes up to the neighbor's house. Not sure why few people ever ride over there. The footing and space is great, but I think some of the horse's get a little nervous. It was Forrest's first time over there and he wasn't phased at all. 

We did our normal loose rein walk - couple laps around the pasture - and then picked up our trot. He always starts out tense and trying to go high. I just keep him moving, keep my hands as steady as possible, and keep lightly asking. I simply have to ride him out and I wait until I hear it. That release where he loudly exhales or flubbers. Then I pat him and we continue, but he's soft, and no longer fighting or trying to giraffe. 

I did a lot of reading on this in various forums last night where people posted about giraffe syndrome. Found some really great advice about keeping him bending and circles and transitions and change of direction. I tried to incorporate a lot of it into our ride and we did more work with our walk-halt. Im working hard to teach him to halt off my seat seeing as how he hates it so much when you touch his mouth. It's not easy because it seems he's never been taught this, but I think we made good strides today. I just need to be more consistent.

And finally, we got our best canter today. It was on right lead and we were doing 20m circles. He didn't giraffe at all and I actually got him somewhat round. It wasn't consistent, but it was definitely the best I've ever gotten from him. Normally, aid or no aid, when I ask for a canter, he just goes hollow, points his nose to the sky and runs with it. We rode with no extra aids. Just me and him negotiating. 

Our senior trainer is coming from Louisiana on Saturday to do lessons. I was hesitant about signing up until last night and especially today. Today he showed me that I have something to work with and maybe our senior trainer will have some ideas as well or pointers to help us work through this. I'm pretty stoked!


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## Tazzie

I'm so glad things are working out with him! He definitely had a massive mental block, but through consistent work you're getting there! I can't wait to see updated videos in even a months time!


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## Tihannah

Okay, so I have a confession to make...

The couple days since my last post, well, the rides just weren't good. And I know, I know, in this journey, there are always good and bad days, but the past couple days got me feeling really down about Forrest. I was starting to feel overwhelmed again. Like I was in over my head and maybe I was fighting a losing battle. I can't explain the sudden flip in mood, except that I was getting frustrated and Forrest was really shutting me down. Yesterday I put him on the lunge again, and noticed that he was struggling on right lead. Wouldn't stretch down and didn't really want to go forward. Seemed fine on left lead though. So I reached out to a barn friend to see if she could get her chiro out. He also travels and usually only comes out once a month, but he lives in the area and she's known him a long time, so she pulled some strings and he is coming tomorrow, on a Sunday!, to look at Forrest.

Meanwhile, I talked to my trainer and expressed my thoughts. She said that this was a huge obstacle to overcome and my riding was basically stuck, and she wasn't confident that I had the skills or knowledge to overcome this. So yea, that didn't help. I came home last night feeling defeated. Around 9:30p, I texted her asking if I could cancel my lesson with the senior trainer today. I told her that Forrest needed an adjustment - he seemed blocked in his neck and his poll, and I just didn't think the lesson was going to accomplish much. She wasn't happy about me canceling last minute, but said okay.

Well... I got up this morning and started really thinking about it. My trainer has tried, Helen has tried, the upper level eventer, and John. Our Senior trainer has decades more experience than all of them. So I thought, okay, I will do this lesson with her, and if she says this is just too much for me and I can't fix him or it will take years to fix, then I will give up and start considering other options. I texted my trainer this morning and told her to keep me on the schedule. I was scheduled to ride at 230p.

I got to the barn around 11a so I could watch a few lessons and then we broke for lunch. She sat down with us and immediately asked me about Forrest. "Tell me about your new horse." So I gave her the complete rundown. His history (what I knew of it), everything we've tried, the aids, the vets, osteo, chiro, acupuncture, injections, advice from the other trainers, etc. She is the sweetest woman. Very motherly, soft spoken and kind and she just nodded and took everything in and said, "Well...I'll just take a look at him and we'll see what we can do."

I spent time warming him up on a loose rein while she finished up the lesson before us. We did trot laps and he was great, but only because I never picked up the reins. Then we entered the arena, and the first thing she said was, "Well, he's a beauty and I watched you go, but he's running around with his hind end strung out behind him. So we've got to put that together." We started out just doing trot 20m circles while she watched and it didn't take long for her to pull his number.

Now, anyone that's familiar with dressage knows that one of the basic rules is that the horse has to be forward and pushed into the contact from behind. What she saw, that no one else has been able to piece together about Forrest, is that he is already forward and his strides are so big, that he is using the forward to evade the contact. She said, "We don't need to push him FORWARD. We need to bring him BACK." So what she had me do was a hold a steady outside contact (as steady as I could anyways), and just keep bringing him back and asking him to slow down. But just using my seat and outside rein to bring him back. And she said, "This is hard for him, but it's okay. We'll get it." She's so patient and kind to what's going on with the horse and I just love her. And for the first time, I really felt what it was Forrest was doing. I mean he is constantly trying to speed up! But when I could successfully bring him back and hold my outside rein, he would soften. She said he had also trained me to drop the contact when he softened, and she was right. So we focused on that as well. She made me hold the contact and only give in my elbows. It was SO hard, lol, but I started to get the hang of it. The other thing was his neck. He's crafty with his neck in that he overbends it to try and evade being pushed into the outside rein, so I had to work to keep that straight as well. But we soon found that when I kept his neck straight, kept him from running, and maintained a steady contact, he softened and dropped into the contact. It was pretty amazing!

Mind you, it wasn't consistent, and we were constantly working at it, but it CLEARLY worked. And I wasn't really forcing him to do anything, but I wasn't allowing him to get away with anything either. I honestly couldn't believe it. And she saw what John saw, that this is a learned behavior. She also said she didn't see a single sign of lameness in him either. But he was better on left lead than right, and she thought the chiro coming tomorrow would help that as well. She also said that he wasn't as sensitive to the contact as he'd made us think. It was just his way of getting around having to use himself properly. And she was right, because when I held the contact and managed to put him together just right, there was no fuss about it.

At the end of it, we were both REALLY happy with what we did and saw and she said to me, "Tina, I think we can fix this, and when we do, he will be an amazing horse for you." She said she was just as excited as I was and eager to continue working with us and help us get through this. She said she didn't care if it was only for a couple people/lessons, that she would try to get back down here sooner to work with us. I was ecstatic and just like that, my hope was renewed. 

Below are my favorite stills from the ride. My position is awful, but I'm just really happy with what we managed to accomplish today. I just hope I can maintain it going forward and that the chiro visit tomorrow helps some.


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## Golden Horse

LOL, so you have a smart, nice natured boy....Keep the faith, you WILL get there with him, but remember the journey will ALWAYS be a game of snakes and ladders, sometimes it's a little ladder, and a little ladder, then you hit a big snake, and you are all the way down the bottom again, just keep rolling the dice!

In a way your journey is like mine with Fergie, she also has a bunch of learned evasions, but she is teaching me to be a far better rider than I have ever been. The satisfaction that you will feel with every step along the way will be immense!


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## Tihannah

Golden Horse said:


> LOL, so you have a smart, nice natured boy....Keep the faith, you WILL get there with him, but remember the journey will ALWAYS be a game of snakes and ladders, sometimes it's a little ladder, and a little ladder, then you hit a big snake, and you are all the way down the bottom again, just keep rolling the dice!
> 
> In a way your journey is like mine with Fergie, she also has a bunch of learned evasions, but she is teaching me to be a far better rider than I have ever been. The satisfaction that you will feel with every step along the way will be immense!


I think I was letting myself get discouraged because there’s been so many activities going on around the barn that I simply can’t do with Forrest, like schooling shows, lessons, and what not. I’d stopped taking lessons cause frankly, no one knew how to deal with him or had any kinda definitive answer.

And to be honest, none of the other trainers really had a positive outlook for me. I almost felt like John was disappointed for me, though he didn’t say that. But I don’t think he felt that I was ever going to really get anywhere with Forrest and become the dressage rider I want to be. :icon_frown: But this trainer sees something totally different. She said it’s not going to be easy, but it CAN be fixed and once it is, everything else will fall into place because he has all the natural bells and whistles you want for dressage. She loved his temperament and movement and I think she is just what we need to keep moving forward!


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## Tihannah

Chiro came yesterday and FINALLY, we have an answer in the right direction! And it totally builds on what the senior trainer saw.

He asked me to take him out and walk him around while he stood back and watched. Turned him in a few circles, and then we went to put him in the crossties. Before I'd gotten him fully hooked up, he said, "It's the right hind. His pelvis is locked up." He said that he was definitely locked up in his neck and poll, but that wasn't the real issue and the right hind was the source of everything I was seeing. He said he would fix the neck and poll today, but they would revert back until we got his pelvis fully recovered. He even asked me, "When he goes to the right, does he do his neck like this?" and he demonstrated exactly what Forrest was doing. 

He said that because Forrest naturally tracks up, he's trying to unload the hind end onto his front by doing the whole giraffe thing, and has likely been doing it a long time. So he said it's partly a learned behavior, but brought on from the issue with his hind. He also had the last 2 ribs out on both sides. So for now, our homework is stretching before rides by making him turn in 3 tight circles, both directions and backing up 20 steps. He said these exercises will help loosen up the pelvis. As far as riding, we are only to do walk and trot, and then have to do neck stretches afterwards to keep him supple. He is coming back on the 17th and will adjust again, and then said we can start doing strengthening exercises.

The chiro thought Forrest was a super nice horse and definitely worth the rehab we're going to put into him. He said I'm going to see a significant change in him and asking him to soften and go round won't be such a struggle anymore. Lord knows I hope so! Lol. But I'm kinda mad at myself for not having this guy out sooner. Everyone else has just been taking stabbing guesses at what's causing his issues, but this guy took one look at him and knew instantly. And the way he broke it down, explained so much of what we were seeing.

Anyhow, so this combined with what the senior trainer discovered has me super excited. I think this chiro and the senior trainer are exactly what we need to keep moving forward.  Below is what the chiro sent me on his findings:


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## Tihannah

I rode again on Thursday, and though there was still good progress, I had trouble getting him as consistent as the night before. Ended up working late Friday, so didn't get out again till Saturday. Ride was not good at all and he fought me almost the entire time. I couldn't understand it, except that maybe his hip had locked up again. At the end of the ride he looked exhausted, and since we'd ridden 3 days, I decided to give him Sunday off as well.

This morning I emailed the chiro and updated him with what I was seeing. He said the initial adjustment usually lasts 10-14 days, so there could be something more causing issues with the hind. I asked him if it was okay to share his findings with my vet and get his thoughts as well and he agreed that I should and to update him.

So tonight after work, I headed out to the barn on the fence about whether or not I should ride. When I got there, Forrest looked to be in good spirits. We did our stretches with ease, so I decided to ride. And guess what?? He was fantastic! In fact, he did so well that I cut the ride short because I wanted to make sure we ended on a good note. But the most telling part of the ride was when we found our stride. I'd gotten him into my outside rein, so I reached down and quickly patted his neck, and it was as if I saw his demeanor change. It was like he marked the moment and recognized what I wanted, because after that he was just super! We even got some stretchy work where he was really trying to stretch down into the bit. I wouldn't get more than 3-4 strides before he'd come up, but then it only took a couple strides before he'd try to reach down again. I was super proud and gave him lots of praise.

When we made it back to the barn and began to untack, a thought hit me. What if the barn workers had forgotten to give him his Previcox this weekend? The vet started him on it after his last acupuncture treatment. My first horse, Tess, had been on Previcox as well, and when she missed doses, it was easy to tell. It just didn't make sense for him to put up such a fight and fuss on Saturday, and then today be right as rain. So tomorrow, Im going to follow up with the barn manager to make sure he gets his dose every day. It's going to take some time to build the strength back in his hind, and if he's sore or hurting, it just makes it that much harder.

And finally, I started him on a new supplement about 2 weeks ago. Equine Omega Complete. I've been eyeing it for awhile now and reading lots of good reviews, so I decided to give it a shot. If it does what it says, I'd be able to save a lot by cutting out all the other supplements he's been getting. As most know, when I got him, he was quite a bit underweight from being full of worms. Since then, I've upped his feed and hay several times as well as added weight gainers like Cool Calories and Amplify. Although he eventually gained weight, I couldn't seem to completely cover his ribs. Until the EOC. He's been on it only 2 weeks and he looks fantastic! His ribs are finally covered and his coat looks AMAZING. He's previously been on a multi-supplement from Smartpak that covered the coat as well as ground flaxseed, but now?? I mean he is ridiculously shiny!! Lol. Just tonight I had 2 boarders remark about how shiny he was and what I was feeding him. Mind you, its dark out now with the time change, but I swear his coat looks like I coated him in Showsheen or Cowboy Magic. Lol. And he currently has his winter coat on! So yea, so far, so good. I can't wait to see how he looks in another few months!


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## Tihannah

Had to go to DC this week for work so hadn't seen my sweet boy since Tuesday! Yesterday was just a beautiful day to be at the barn. Temps were low 60s and sunny and I enjoyed every minute. A friend at the barn was building a private paddock for her two horses, so I brought my guy out with me and we helped them get the fencing up. 

I didn't ride until late afternoon, but Forrest did great. He really is making progress and although the consistency is not yet there, he is a lot easier to get to soften and that huge bulge of muscle under his neck has started going away. He tried really hard for me and that's all that matters. I also think the 3 days off were really good for him as he seemed full of spunk and energy. His winter coat is becoming an issue, so today, a friend is bringing her clippers out and we are going to do a full body clip on him. I think he will appreciate it since it never gets really cold here.

And finally, the good news! I got a second job!! Lol. My trainer/BO is hiring me to handle the office work at the barn. She's been struggling with the person who's been doing it, as they have been losing files, never finishing employee schedules, etc. and its just been a mess. I've been telling her for months to just let me take it over. It's basically what I do and I have an MBA in Business Mgt and I think she's finally just had enough with that person. So basically, I will be handling employee schedules, invoicing, vet records, show and clinic schedules, etc. in exchange for free board!! Woohooo!! This will free up so much extra money for me and this type of work is right up my alley. I love being at the barn, helping out, and doing things to help promote it, but not having to worry about board anymore is a HUGE added bonus! Lol.

Anyhow, here's my favorite pic from yesterday. Gotta get dressed and head to the barn!


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## Tihannah

Soaking in a hot tub as I type cause this old gal is hurting! Finished the full body clip on Forrest and it came out great. My friend has the "real deal" clippers that run close to $300 so they sliced through all that fur like butter! Lol. In total, it probably took me about 3 hours from start to finish with plenty of breaks, but my lower back is killing me and my arm is sore from the those heavy clippers! As expected, Forrest was a total saint and only put up a fight when I tried to clip the extra fuzz in his ears. It surprised me cause he almost fell asleep when I was clipping his face! He's such a sweet boy.

He's so loved at the barn for his temperament. The barn workers are always telling me that he's their favorite. One girl told me today that she got yelled at the other day cause they were bringing horses in and she forgot to grab a halter - only had a lead rope, so she decided to get Forrest. And her excuse was, "It's Forrest! I don't need a halter!" lol. Another girl asked how long I've had him and was shocked when I told her I just got him in July. She said, "The way he is with you, I thought you'd had him for years."  

So after the clip job, I was too tired to ride, and decided to lunge instead. I haven't lunged Forrest in weeks, but decided to recruit one of the barn rats to sit in the saddle for me while I worked him in side reins. Today, I REALLY saw his improvement. The girl, Emma, was over the moon excited to be my test dummy. She adores Forrest and has always wanted to ride him and see what it's like on a WB. She's only ever been on him at a walk. So we started on the lunge at walk, and he put up a little fight at first when he realized he was back in side reins, but I pushed him on. The difference? Previously, in side reins, he would immediately drop long and low and it wasn't so much about the reach and coming over his back and it was trying to evade the contact and stepping under himself - whatever he could do to extend the front end and not have to use his hind. Today was different. Today he was actually settling into a frame and using his hind. He didn't like it and it was definitely hard, but it was a BIG difference from what we've seen in the past. He fussed more going right than left, but eventually settled and found his stride. I was super impressed and thought THIS, this is the kinda work we need more of. We even did walk-trot transitions on the lunge and he did super.

Emma was beside herself and loved every moment in the saddle, even though she was just on the lunge, so I recruited her to do this regularly with me. So we decided that Tuesdays, Thursdays, and one weekend day, she will be my dummy rider and help me work Forrest on the lunge so that he can continue to get stronger and get used to using himself this way with a rider on his back.

The chiro is coming out on Friday to do a 2nd adjustment on him, so hopefully, we will continue to see improvement. Below are just a couple pics after I finished clipping him today. I can't help but adore my big lug!


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## Tihannah

Okay, on a roll this week! Lol. Went out after work tonight. Helen's been gone outta state for the past week at a show, so we finally got to catch up a bit while I tacked Forrest up. As I was brushing him, she stops and says, "Forrest looks REALLY good!" I tell her about the new supplement I started him on and how well he's been doing on it, and she's like, "Wow! You can't see his ribs anymore." 

So, at the beginning, I mentioned that Forrest came very under weight, under muscled, and filled with worms. Well, we took care of the worm problem, but since then, I've been struggling to really put weight on him. He's a big guy already at 17.1h, but for the past 3 months I've upped his feed, hay and alfalfa several times in addition to trying both Cool Calories and Amplify for additional weight gain. On top of those, he has also been getting Purina Supersport to build muscle and ground flaxseed for his coat AND of course, his monthly Smartpaks. And I gotta tell ya, it's been breaking me! Lol. But despite ALL of this, Forrest has only shown gradual improvement and weight gain.

Now, I know what you're thinking, he doesn't look bad in the videos and pics right? Well, in the videos, he's all tacked up and in the pics, I'm very selective and "careful", you could say, to portray him in the best light. I mean, he wasn't in "terrible" condition, but definitely not where he should've been. So I gotta tell you, after 3 weeks on this new supplement, I am ecstatic about how good he looks already, so I am finally ready to share. The best part is that I am able to eliminate all the extra stuff I've been feeding him and save myself a ton of money as this covers everything. So here we go...

The 1st pic is from when I got him in July.
The 2nd pic is from early October. You can see that although he gained SOME, he still had a ways to go.
The 3rd pic I took tonight after only 3 weeks on the new supplement. His coat looks darker because of the full body clip, but to me the difference is amazing!  I can't wait to see what he looks like in a few months!


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## Tazzie

He looks SO much better! I'm so glad you're making progress with him! His topline looks SO much better with the added weight and better riding!


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## PoptartShop

He looks GREAT!!!!!!  Definitely looks way better now. Nice topline!
Supplements work wonders don't they? He looks really good. Yay!  So happy!


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## carshon

What a HUGE difference~!


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## Tihannah

Thank you all! I've been working so hard to bring this guy back and I'm really starting to see it. I think the recent chiro work and following up with the stretching before and after every ride has also helped a lot. It makes me so happy to see him getting better and stronger.

Last night he wasn't fussy about the bridle at all. Still resistant to softening, but none of the head tossing and weird rubber necking thing he does to try and get around it. We are also no longer kissing the sky and he's becoming a lot more receptive to moving more like a normal horse. I think it will only get better as we continue to build the strength in his hind end.

Emma is coming out tonight for another lunge session. I think this is really good aerobic work for him. This weekend, I'm gonna try to team up with Helen and do some hill work out in the pasture. John is back Dec 2nd and 3rd for another clinic and I'm hoping Forrest will be more rideable this time around.

So exited to have John back too! He just got done with US Dressage Finals in Lexington and one of his horses took National Champion and next week he's riding the same horse in a clinic with Charlotte Dujardin!!! We are all so excited for him and can't wait to hear all about it when he comes!!


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## Cherrij

Forrest looks much better! I agree with the others, that the added weight and better exercising makes him look stronger and fitter! And what just a few months or weeks can do!


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## Tihannah

Whew! What a busy, fun filled weekend!

Chiro came out again Friday night. He was traveling across state again and didn't make it to the barn till after 8pm! He said Forrest had shown good improvement, but was still in phase 1 of his rehab. We still have not achieved full range of motion in pelvis, but the chiro was happy with what we did do. No ribs out this time and he's crossing under himself really well. Backing up? Well, that's another story. Lol. I swear, I have to fight this horse to get him to back up. And he's big, and KNOWS he's big, so he'll just flat out say no. But in order to get him where he needs to be, I have to keep pushing to get him through the exercises, so I won't give up the fight. I've seen a lot of improvement in the past couple weeks, and I just want to continue down this path.

Saturday we had a schooling show at the barn. Forrest, of course, is not ready to show so I volunteered to work the show. I ended up getting to be the scribe! Omg, I loved it so much! Getting to sit next to the judge during the entire show and learn what she sees and what she's looking at. The judge is also our senior trainer, whom I simply adore, and it was just an amazing learning experience for me. I also enjoyed seeing all the different horses and riders. The show was PACKED and we had over 40 dressage tests! All lower level, of course, but it was still fun to watch and be a part of. @Golden Horse - We even did our first ever Western Dressage classes! There were only 2 participants and they both did the same 2 tests, but it was fun to watch, and it made me think of you!

We had such a good chat in the booth about riding, horses, and our love of dressage. I told her how I hated that I started riding so late in life and that when I do shows, I have to worry about a 9yr old on her 23 yr old pony kicking my butt! Lol. She told me I'm definitely not alone. After the show was done, she gave me a lesson on Forrest. She noticed the improvement since our last lesson and said I'd gotten much better about controlling his gaits and keep him from running away with me. She ALSO said that despite him tossing me all over the place, my hands were incredibly steady. This was HUGE for me. YUGE!! Lol. Some of you may remember my old videos from Tess. I can't imagine how painful they must have been to watch of me hanging on her mouth and using my hands to balance my unsteady seat! So yea, Forrest has really taught me to have an independent seat since he hates me touching his mouth so much, lol! In the end, she reiterated to me that she really loved Forrest and thought he was well worth the work to rehab and retrain and that I would eventually have an amazing horse.

Sunday I rode again, but it wasn't great. There was some miscommunication with one of the barn workers and Forrest didn't get turned out with all the horses. So by the time I made it to the barn, he was ****ED! Lol. It took a lot to get him to listen to anything, because all he wanted was to be turned out, but in the end, I got a little good out of him and I was happy. 

I know I've forgotten some good stuff, but Mondays are the worst and it was a hectic day and I'm tired and can't think. We are now preparing for John's arrival in a couple weeks. I am SO excited to hear about HIS clinic with Charlotte Dujardin!! Eek!!


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## Tazzie

Oh I'm so excited to hear about Forrest's progress! Makes me SUPER excited! He really is a nice horse and I know you'll unlock him 

It does kind of suck going against young kids. Or people a little younger that are still supported by mommy and daddy and have a fancy horse. But honestly, who cares? You and Forrest are really becoming a fantastic team! It's fun watching your journey, and I can't wait to hear how showing goes when the two of you are ready, no matter how long that may take!

And EEEK! Yes! I want to hear ALL about it too!!!


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## Tihannah

@Tazzie - Thanks, Katie! I'm really excited about Forrest's development, but until we are ready to show, I will just continue living through all the fabulousness of you and Izzie kicking butt and taking names!! 

Tonight was our lunging session with Emma and when we wrapped things up, I was absolutely giddy! Tonight, for the first time, we got Forrest both ON THE CONTACT and in a consistent FRAME!! And wait, wait! In BOTH directions!!! Lol. I can't lie, he fussed a bit in the beginning, trying to refuse, and then a little huffing, but after a few minutes, it was like he realized he could do it, and then total relaxed and went with it.

In our last session, we could only get him to relax going right and never in a real frame. Going left he kept bracing. And though he was more relaxed going right, he still did this weird bobbing thing with his head. Not up and down, but a kind of sideways bob, and I couldn't help but think it had to do with the weakness in his hind. Tonight?? He was totally steady eddy. No head bobbing at all and really using his hind and stepping under. Once we got him going nicely, I told Emma to slowly take up some contact. Last session, he would have none of it. As soon as she took any contact, he would brace and refuse to soften. This time was totally different. He tossed his head a couple times, but I pushed him forward, and then he settled without much fuss at all. We started with just contact on the outside rein, then both reins, then shortened a bit and he was just fantastic. He was so good that we did transitions and stretching down and by the end, I was able to just hold the lunge line slack and instruct Emma on how to drive. I just told her to ride like she was off the lunge, using half halts and her seat to bring him back, using the inside rein to get him off his shoulder, and then transitioning to walk and back to trot again. I stepped in when needed using the lunge line, but for the most part, she was able to go with little assistance from me. All I basically did was keep him on the circle with the lunge, but she was able to do all else.

Seeing him go tonight really confirmed what the chiro has been telling me about his hind and how it has affected everything else I've been dealing with (the head/neck). He seems to be getting stronger every week and looking more and more like a normal horse. I think the most important part will be adding more and more contact when we work with him on the lunge so that we can transfer what we've been doing to off the lunge. His mind is so resistant to contact from regular reins. Emma is a pretty quiet rider with nice, steady hands and seems to be good about not asking for too much too soon from him. She's fun to work with because she loves Forrest and wants to see him succeed as much as I do. So yea, another chip away at the boulder that is Forrest.


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## Tihannah

HAPPY THANKSGIVING!!!

Wasn't planning to head to the barn today, but life with horses right??

Got off work early yesterday and headed to the barn to try and get a good ride in with my man. It was feeding time and they were bringing horses in, but as soon as I got out of the car, another boarder called me over to help with her horse that she thought was colicing. I had to run and grab my trainer for her, who called the vet, and then she realized he was actually choking. They put a hose in his mouth trying to force the obstruction out and it worked and he managed to hack the blockage out. Once they realized he was okay, I grabbed a halter to go get Forrest. 

He was one of the last 2 to be brought in. I put his halter on and then realized he wasn't moving. I clucked and gave a little pull and that's when I saw he was dragging his front left leg. :-( It took me several minutes to get him through the gate, but once I did, I checked him for cuts, scrapes, swelling, heat, there was nothing. I flexed his leg and stretched it out. He was fine. He even put weight on it. But when I asked him to move forward, he was almost dragging his leg. I yelled for my trainer, and then tried to continue coaxing him towards a nearby round pen. All of a sudden, he straightened up and started walking normal again for maybe 5 steps, then stopped and started hobbling again?? WT-?? My trainer comes over and inspects him too and can find nothing. No heat, no swelling, and he's putting weight on it. So she calls the vet, who's already on his way, to let him know we have a 2nd situation!

We managed to get him to the round pen and I gave him his dinner and waited for the vet. When the vet comes I explain what happened and that we had a few normal steps and then he went back hobbling again. Vet looked him over good, and then made him move out. Just got behind him and kept clucking and pushing him to go. And after maybe 3-4 steps, he suddenly started moving normal again! Then he'd stop, start hobbling again, and vet pushed him forward and normal movement came back. So vet said he would be fine. He said Forrest likely got kicked at the gate and was just hurting and sore, but no fractures and nothing serious since there was no heat or swelling. He said we needed to keep him moving and using the leg or else it was gonna get super stiff. He gave him a shot of banamine for the pain and gave me a tube of bute to give him over the next couple days and said he needed to go on 24/7 turnout for the next few days.

I took him out and walked him all around the property for about 30 minutes and it continued to get better. As I walked him around, I started to get MAD. So here's the deal. Forrest is ALWAYS the first one at the gate for feeding time. I've helped bring horses in many times, and it's usually first come, first serve. The horses have their own hierarchy and order so you basically bring them in as they come. In the mare pasture, the alpha mare is more of a momma type and likes to make sure all her girls get in first before she's taken, so she kinda herds them up herself. But in the gelding pasture, it goes by pecking order. 

So here's the deal. Some of the LAZY kids at the barn have disrupted the pecking order because they would rather bring horses in by where their stalls are at. Forrest's stall is at the very front on the far side of the barn, so even though he is the first at the gate, they continuously push him to the back and bring in other horses. When I got there yesterday, he was one of the last 2 to be brought in, and I went to get him myself because he still waiting. The other horse waiting is also on his side of the barn and a jerk and is probably the one who kicked him, because Emma told me she went out to get her horse not 30 min prior and Forrest walked right up to her and was fine. It would be different if this happened out in the pasture, but it wouldn't because Forrest likes to keep to himself and doesn't get caught up in any drama. They don't get it that if he is standing at the front of the herd at the gate, and they decide to push him back into the pack because they don't feel like walking to the far side of the barn, that they are knocking him down in the pecking order and pushing him back to where the other horses are reacting and striking out. I've noticed him come in in the past week or 2 with new marks on him as well. It makes me mad just thinking about it. So today when I go out to check on him, I'm going to talk to the barn manager about it and ask her to speak with all the workers before I get mad and UGLY. Woosaaahhh!!

Below are a couple pics I got while we were waiting on the vet in the roundpen. It was a beautiful sunset.


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## knightrider

There's the main reason I don't like boarding! Sometimes when I am replacing a fence post, or fixing fence, or trimming trees, or re-hanging a gate, or mowing pasture, I think, "Man, I wish I was boarding!"

And then I read a story like yours . . . and I'm glad I'm not boarding. Your situation would certainly steam me. I'd be furious. And it is something you cannot control. I feel for you. Never wanna board again. What a bummer!


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## Tihannah

I spoke with both my Trainer/BO and the barn manager and they are going to address the situation with the workers. They both agreed that horses should be brought in first come, first serve so as not to disrupt the herd dynamic and cause unnecessary fights or injuries. My trainer was shocked when I told her. The good news is that Forrest recovered very quickly and has shown no lameness issues since.

I did another lunge session with Emma yesterday and, at first, Forrest was NOT on board. I decided that it was time to stop tip toeing around the contact and instructed Emma to keep a light, steady contact from the beginning. You see, on the lunge, Forrest has no issue with contact from side reins or contact from the lunge. And I run the lunge line through the bit, over the poll, and hook it to the bit on the opposite side. I use the lunge to give half-halts, while the side reins keep him from going giraffe and bracing. With this setup, he will go lovely with little to no fuss, but its felt near impossible to transfer this off the lunge because of the contact! The moment Emma picked up the reins, the fight began, and I had to really get in his butt and keep pushing him forward. And then once I got him forward, every few strides he would jerk his head as if to tell Emma to let go! But Emma did great and really focused on keeping a steady contact while I focused on keeping him forward. It took about 15 minutes before he finally settled and began to accept it and stretch down into it. We got some good consistency in each direction and then I decided to hop on and see if any transferred to off the lunge. It had not. :-( I was disappointed and frustrated, so I ended it and took him back to the barn.

And, of course, feeling down again about my dressage dreams and my horse that seems to hate everything about it. 

So today I went to the barn to sit down and work on the books with my BO. Took most of the day and wasn't planning to ride, but brought Forrest in early before feeding time to just groom and spend time with him before I left. One of my boarder friends came over to mess with me and remind me how much Forrest just wants to be a jumper and I need to let her have him. And that's when I decided I was just going to take him out and do some small jumps with him. My trainer let me use her CWD. I just put him in his D-ring happy mouth and a running martingale and off we went. Starting out, it was like every other ride, fighting the contact and being difficult - not wanting to trot unless I released the contact. I somehow finally pushed him into the trot and we did a couple laps where we worked through the fight with the contact and the martingale and he'd soften for a few strides and then try to yank at the reins again. So I took him over a few trot poles, and just like that, his demeanor changed...

The only way I can describe it is, "Oh, we're working now." I took him over a small jump and then he softened even more and stopped yanking. And then I pretended we were doing a real jump course and we did trot poles and small jumps and he was just... amazing. I was so nervous about doing the jumps, but he is a true babysitter - careful and easy over every jump, so that soon I felt completely at ease and just trusted him to get us to the other side. And when we touched the other side, he would canter and trot like a normal horse, even kinda round. His head and neck were no longer and issue. He wasn't fighting the contact and just totally relaxed and at work. It felt incredible and I felt amazing. In my mind, I pictured myself on a real jump course on one of those fancy jumper horses just looking around for the next jump. Lol. He felt that good underneath me. I gave him lots of pats and praise and then we headed back to the barn.

So here I now sit in a turmoil of emotions. Am I trying to shove a square peg through a round hole, as someone mentioned a few pages back?? At his age (16), is it silly of me to think I can turn him into a dressage horse? He was SO much fun on the jump course today and totally at home and at ease. The flat work between the jumps was easily some of our best. And now I don't know how to feel about it. I guess I need to start looking for a jump saddle. :-| Maybe I can use this to help build on his flatwork? He's definitely getting stronger in his hind and it's easier to get him to soften. I would love to do eventing with him, but he just seems to hate the flatwork so much. :-(


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## Golden Horse

:grin: It is so hard as a 'horse mum' deciding what is best for everyone.

I sold a Haflinger I had, the original Golden Horse, although she was OK to ride, did not seem unhappy, but then I borrowed a harness and played with driving, and she was just so different, she was happy, everything changed when she had that harness on. I did not want to drive so I let her go.

The Awesome Mr Gibbs, really did not 'get' arena work and definitely didn't enjoy dressage, so once I had my confidence I was happy to retire him to ambling around on trails, but couldn't let him go to anyone else to enjoy trails....

Fergie now, not sure about her still, I think she just enjoys being good, she likes doing something well, what ever it is. She was certainly excited though when we were doing ground poles yesterday, especially those with standards each side of them.

Sounds like some jumping would help Forrest enjoy his work, and will be fun for you.


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## KigerQueen

maybe you need to get into 3 day eventing. or do some dressage and hunter jumper. he may just be board out of his skull. I HATE flat work and i can guarantee most horses do to. its boring after a while. maybe have jumping days and dressage days. mix things up to keep his head in the game. Or as much as i hate to say it maybe he is just not the right horse for you. he just might need to be a jumper and you just might need a horse who knows dressage and likes it.
too bad you are back east. my trainer is selling her hanoverian tb gelding who has dressage training and is AMAZING! amazing bloodlines and is a big and beautiful horse.

ill share her add to you once she posts it.


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## seabiscuit91

I think you can use this to build on your flatwork. 

At the end of the day, jumping horses need a strong foundation on the flat, jumping really is just dressage with obstacles, a lot of jumpers won't jump more than once a fortnight anyway.
Same with Eventers, you spend 5-6 days a week working on flat work, as you need all of your dressage/adjust-ability for XC.
So while he may love to jump, it likely wouldn't solve the issues by changing disciplines, aside the jumping day. 

Using poles may be a really good tool for you both, as perhaps it's the element of taking his mind somewhere else that makes him relax and stop fussing. Maybe you could begin rides working over poles and once he's settled do all your flat next to them and see how long he stays with you?

He's definitely improved so so so much since you've got him, don't lose hope of your dressage dreams!


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## Tihannah

I think incorporating jumps and poles into our rides and just keeping things mixed up is going to be the only way to work through this. It's the only thing that seems to make him relax and forget about fighting the contact and protesting going into a frame. He would just do it naturally after we went over a jump and I did my best to try and mark it with a pat and praise.

I love Forrest to death. He is such an otherwise easy horse in every way, but it makes me sad and frustrated that the mental block is so damned thick!!

My other option is the same jumper friend's TB. She has two, but this one she bought as a rescue/project and had planned to resell him. He's still a baby, only 3, but his temperament is incredible and we have both noted that he could make a nice dressage/event horse. She is a jumper and doesn't want to part with him now, but doesn't think he will be cut out to be a jumper. She bought him from a girl who'd purchased him off the track and was trying to make a barrel racer out of him! He was sitting in a dirt lot, starving to death, and skin and bones. She wanted to trade him for a trained barrel racer, but my friend just offered her cash in order to save him.

Now? He doesn't even look like the same horse. He simply looks amazing and is so solidly built and muscled from head to toe. He's so sweet, you can even put kids on him and lead them around. But anyhow, the friend has said that I am more than welcome to ride/train him in dressage. So in the meantime, if it does take me another year or two to get through to Forrest, I will have something else to work with and build on that doesn't mind contact and flatwork.


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## Tihannah

Had our first jump lesson last night!! Omg, it was SOOO much fun and Forrest was just awesome! I, on the other hand, am such a scaredy cat and practically squealed going over almost every jump! lol. The one thing I AM consistent with though, is a really chitty position in BOTH dressage and jumping!! :rofl::rofl:

Helen was my instructor and I think she loved it as much as I did. She wouldn't even take any money from me, just said she wanted to help us keep getting better. I love her to death! But she definitely saw what I saw, in that Forrest is totally at home on a jump course and so much more relaxed. We actually had some REALLY good moments where we got him to bend and soften and the more we did, the better and more consistent it got.

Helen was genius and really set up the course to keep his mind busy and working. We'd go over trot poles, then a jump, then do a couple 20m circles, then another jump, and some trot poles. And though he often wanted to go giraffe on me, he couldn't if he was going to be able to see the jumps, lol, so it worked really well in our favor.

We did our first ever canter over a jump!! I was terrified!! Lol. But Helen was just screaming, "Do it! You got it!" Like I said, Forrest is such a babysitter and SOO careful, that really all I had to do was close my eyes and hang on. Lol. Bad idea, I know. It felt amazing though, flying over a jump at the canter. He really is a confidence builder on the jump course. And with every jump, it was that much easier to get him to soften and bend and stretch into the contact. I would post some of the video, but I haven't quite learned how to ride in a jumping saddle and I'm embarrassed by my position. Lol. But there came a point where I felt like everytime he softened and I said, "Good!" he would throw his head up almost on cue! So I tried to stop saying it and at one point, he was going soft and in a consistent contact for several strides and in the video I was so excited, but didn't want to say good, so I just yell out this long almost growl/grunt! Below is just a snapshot of that moment I took from the video.

I gotta tell you. I think I may have been converted and Forrest and I might become eventers!


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## Golden Horse

Tihannah said:


> I gotta tell you. I think I may have been converted and Forrest and I might become eventers!


WIN WIN.....watch out, jumping can be addictive...sounds like you are both having fun.


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## KigerQueen

TOLD YOU! lol! jumping is WAY too much fun! i sadly have a horse who will trot over anything 2ft and under -_-'. Soo his jumping may not happen lol!


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## Rainaisabelle

When I was still getting lessons from the eventer we always did the clover leaf pattern, transitions within gaits and going through the middle of two polls made into like a triangle shape I found it really made Roy relax and soften  Check out horse physio on facebook, I am unsure if I showed you it? They have lots of great pole workouts!


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## SketchyHorse

Tihannah said:


> I gotta tell you. I think I may have been converted and Forrest and I might become eventers!


Welcome to the dark side  MWAH HA HA

Forrest reminds me _so_ much of my WB mare. Her previous owner fought the Dressage thing for _10 years_. I give her props because she stuck to the plan & worked with a super difficult horse. My trainer even admitted that when she didn't want to fight with Cally years ago she'd just pop her over a couple jumps lol. After I took her on (I also got her at 16), we added jumping back in. What a different horse. They're just so similar it's hilarious. That mare would be obnoxious if we did flatwork before a jump lesson. Hanging on my hands, jerking her head, ignoring my cues. Start putting jumps up? Different game. She was actually riding off my seat & leg finally. 

I guess they wouldn't be so addicting if there wasn't some sort of challenge. Jumping is so much fun! Even if you only want to do the 18" or 2' starter classes in eventing. Once Cally made it very obvious she couldn't do 2'3"+ we had a ton of fun just in the 18" - 2' classes. They didn't require a lot of effort on her part, but it just kept her so much more agreeable. 

My current trainer uses groundpoles a lot in our Dressage lessons  I highly support using them! Jam doesn't have the same flatwork frustrations Cally did, he couldn't care less, but it just gives us both something to focus on. He also starts to soften through his back a lot quicker after trotting over them a couple times.


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## carshon

I just had to comment and say - I love that you were so excited that you shouted out. TO me this is what riding is all about! Fun - it should be fun and exhilarating and mind boggling. So glad you had a great lesson.


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## Tihannah

SketchyHorse said:


> Welcome to the dark side  MWAH HA HA
> 
> Forrest reminds me _so_ much of my WB mare. Her previous owner fought the Dressage thing for _10 years_. I give her props because she stuck to the plan & worked with a super difficult horse. My trainer even admitted that when she didn't want to fight with Cally years ago she'd just pop her over a couple jumps lol. After I took her on (I also got her at 16), we added jumping back in. What a different horse. They're just so similar it's hilarious. That mare would be obnoxious if we did flatwork before a jump lesson. Hanging on my hands, jerking her head, ignoring my cues. Start putting jumps up? Different game. She was actually riding off my seat & leg finally.
> 
> I guess they wouldn't be so addicting if there wasn't some sort of challenge. Jumping is so much fun! Even if you only want to do the 18" or 2' starter classes in eventing. Once Cally made it very obvious she couldn't do 2'3"+ we had a ton of fun just in the 18" - 2' classes. They didn't require a lot of effort on her part, but it just kept her so much more agreeable.
> 
> My current trainer uses groundpoles a lot in our Dressage lessons  I highly support using them! Jam doesn't have the same flatwork frustrations Cally did, he couldn't care less, but it just gives us both something to focus on. He also starts to soften through his back a lot quicker after trotting over them a couple times.


Hahaha! Thanks for this! I really needed that. And you know, I've heard people say before that you have to find what the horse loves, but this has really been eye opening. We are riding in a dressage clinic this weekend, so Helen and I are going to see if he doesn't mind incorporating some poles and jumps into our lesson. He's a super nice guy, so I don't think he will. He's usually open for whatever works for a particular horse.

I can't help but be green with dressage envy when I see others riding their easy, round horses, lol. But I think this journey with Forrest, though super frustrating at times, is going to be so fun and well worth it in the end!


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## LoriF

knightrider said:


> There's the main reason I don't like boarding! Sometimes when I am replacing a fence post, or fixing fence, or trimming trees, or re-hanging a gate, or mowing pasture, I think, "Man, I wish I was boarding!"
> 
> And then I read a story like yours . . . and I'm glad I'm not boarding. Your situation would certainly steam me. I'd be furious. And it is something you cannot control. I feel for you. Never wanna board again. What a bummer!


I'd rather fix fences and mow pastures on my own property any day. I do it where I board anyway. Where I'm at, I have to bend, improvise, figure out how to get around certain situations, and choose my battles. A LOT! I love the people but they have their own idiosyncrasies and habits that just have to get worked around.


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## SketchyHorse

Tihannah said:


> I can't help but be green with dressage envy when I see others riding their easy, round horses, lol. But I think this journey with Forrest, though super frustrating at times, is going to be so fun and well worth it in the end!


YES! I 110% understand that. Cally I just gave up. In the end it just wasn't worth the fights. Now Jameson I'd like to reach that point, but I've got high neck/headset working against me. It's harder for him to do long/low or figure out how to ride collected. Ugh! We'll get there it's just going to be a longer, slower journey. 

And you'll get there too! Just set your mind on the goal & keep it. Although you might find out you're like him too & love jumping  lol. Just wait until you do a XC course. It always scares the crap out me, but omg so fun.


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## Tihannah

LoriF said:


> I'd rather fix fences and mow pastures on my own property any day. I do it where I board anyway. Where I'm at, I have to bend, improvise, figure out how to get around certain situations, and choose my battles. A LOT! I love the people but they have their own idiosyncrasies and habits that just have to get worked around.


Omg, I'm now basically the office manager for my barn and I'm feeling the pain from all sides! Boarders and workers! No one wants to complain to the BO so they all come to me. I can't even keep my phone charged anymore! And I'm just like, "HeeeyyY!! I'm just here to do the books!!"

I think about having my own property one day and not having to board, but then I think about all the care that goes with it and not being able to really travel. I think there's plus and minuses on both sides and its just really hard to please everyone all the time. But I enjoy having people to ride with and learn from and just kind share the journey with.

Now if I somehow became inexplicably wealthy and could afford to hire a couple people to help keep the property up, then yea, I would definitely have my own place. :smile:


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## Tihannah

SketchyHorse said:


> YES! I 110% understand that. Cally I just gave up. In the end it just wasn't worth the fights. Now Jameson I'd like to reach that point, but I've got high neck/headset working against me. It's harder for him to do long/low or figure out how to ride collected. Ugh! We'll get there it's just going to be a longer, slower journey.
> 
> And you'll get there too! Just set your mind on the goal & keep it. Although you might find out you're like him too & love jumping  lol. Just wait until you do a XC course. It always scares the crap out me, but omg so fun.


I went to a schooling show last year and watched several girls from my barn do XC. It was my first time seeing it in person and I LOVED it! It just looked SO FUN and I liked that every body could pick and choose their own coordinating colors for vests and pads and boots to match. Sometimes I wish dressage would allow just a LITTLE bit of color! Lol. But yea, I think a good goal for us would be beginner novice this time next year?? Maybe?? Lol.


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## SketchyHorse

Tihannah said:


> I went to a schooling show last year and watched several girls from my barn do XC. It was my first time seeing it in person and I LOVED it! It just looked SO FUN and I liked that every body could pick and choose their own coordinating colors for vests and pads and boots to match. Sometimes I wish dressage would allow just a LITTLE bit of color! Lol. But yea, I think a good goal for us would be beginner novice this time next year?? Maybe?? Lol.


The colors are <3 that's probably my favorite part lol. I have matching saddlepad, boots, fly bonnet, grab-strap (for those 'oh no' moments), & then I wear a matching shirt. It's the greatest LOL.

That's an excellent goal! And one you should be able to hit no problem  You can start small with some combined training classes (so just SJ + Dressage), do some XC schooling, & then build your way up to BN. But totally achievable goal!!


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## Tihannah

So Helen had an idea about the giraffe thing. She thinks I should buy this fluffy noseband. She said she's seen it used before on similar horse on the jump course. She said that if they go giraffe, they won't be able to see approaching jumps, so they almost have to lower their head and neck?


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## seabiscuit91

Yeah great idea to try a shadow roll!

I've mainly seen it used on racehorses, but seems more jumpers/eventers are trying it for your exact issue, keeping the head from going to high up!
Definitely worth a try!


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## KigerQueen

is THAT what its for? i could never figure out what they heck they where XD!


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## phantomhorse13

KigerQueen said:


> is THAT what its for?


On the racetrack, they are to keep the horse from being able to see shadows going under them as they run, as some horses will leap the shadows of the poles, lights, etc.

I have never heard of it being used to keep a head down, but hey it certainly won't hurt to try!


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## Tihannah

Its 5:30am and I'm already up with coffee brewing. Today is the clinic!! So excited!! Forrest was such disaster the last time John came, that it felt like a total waste and John gave me 2 years minimum to fix him. But this past week, we have made some amazing progress, with the past couple nights being the best. Last night I asked my jumper friend to hop on him. She hates dressage, but knows her way around a horse and was one of the few that initially saw the issue with his hind. She set up a small exercise course and really worked to get him moving properly. After about 15 minutes she had him looking so amazing - round and on the bit like a real dressage horse. Every 10 or 12 strides, of course, he'd try to throw his head up, but it didn't take long for him to realize that soft was the way to go. When she was done, I hopped on and he felt like a different horse. Went soft and round on me, so easily. I was amazed.

I don't ride until 3:30 this afternoon, but I don't like to miss a lesson when John comes. There's just too much to learn from watching him teach and we have a jam packed schedule that starts at 7:45am and the last ride will end at 5pm. Afterwards, a bunch of us may all go out to dinner together with John. So yea, SUPER stoked for today! Wish us luck for a good ride!


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## Rainaisabelle

Keen to hear how it goes!


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## AnitaAnne

Best of luck to you!! Remember to get pictures and video


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## Golden Horse

AnitaAnne said:


> Best of luck to you!! Remember to get pictures and video


THIS....do not come back without pics


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## SketchyHorse

Golden Horse said:


> THIS....do not come back without pics


Agreed! Super excited for you! I'm really interested to see what he says about Forrest this time around  Have fun!!!!!


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## Tihannah

Clinic was AMAZING!!! Omg, I had so fun and watched almost every ride! John is simply THE BEST! No matter your level, no matter the horse, he can just make things happen. 

I went to lunch with John and my trainer and had the chance to give him the run down on what I've been doing with Forrest before my ride - the lesson with our senior trainer, the issue with his hind, the chiro work, incorporating jumps and poles etc. When we started our lesson, he immediately zoomed in on everything. 45 minutes with John is fantastic, but I wish more than anything I could spend 45 DAYS working with him. He always starts with the small, but most important things first, and then builds on them from there, which is why it's so much better to be able to do 2 or 3 day clinics with him. It just gets better every day.

We took Forrest out to the jump arena and they set up poles for us. Before we really even got started into the pole work, John spotted my first biggest problem - turning him on my outside rein going to the right. To the left? Easy peasy. Going to the right, it's like trying to turn the Titanic before it hits the iceburg!! Lol. John said I was using too much rein to try and turn him and not enough seat and leg. He made me hold my whip on the outside, hold a steady outside rein, and just use my body and legs and a tap of the whip to turn him. It changed everything! Lol. His eye for detail is amazing and he saw all the issues happening with the hind and every evasion tactic that Forrest was using to avoid using it. Now when I say that John has an amazing amount of exercises in his back pocket to work through various issues with different horses, I'm not even kidding! Helen was there throughout the whole lesson, and she was equally amazed at his genius. 

Now I'm going to try my best to describe this the way he did, but I have terrible memory for exact conversations. Lol. So what he had me do was keep him on a circle and spiral in and out using only my outside aids to tighten the circle, so he wasn't so much spiraling, as he was falling in and out of the circle. And when we fell into the circle, he had me post on the wrong diagonal. And we came back out again, I switched to the correct diagonal. This was somehow taking the pressure off the outside hind and forcing him to use the inside hind to come under himself and use his back. At the same time, I was having to control his gaits, causing him to shorten his stride and REALLY lift through his back. When I say that Forrest is CONSTANTLY trying to run from using his hind end, I'm not even kidding, so it's a constant fight to keep in the gait once you get him there. And John said, "I don't care what his crazy head and neck are doing. We can't fix that until we fix what's going on with his hind end. And this isn't even a difficult exercise, but this is SUPER hard for him, because he's never been taught how to use himself properly." 

Forrest is SUPER long in the body and has SUPER long strides, so putting him together and making him use his back and hind is so hard. But John was adamant that we would do it the right way. The other thing he noticed is that Forrest doesn't respond to your seat like he should, but at the same time, he has issues with the contact. So he said, "We have to teach him to respond to your seat and legs if we're ever going to get around his contact issue. I know it's hard, but I don't want you to touch his mouth. Just keep a steady contact." And then we did walk-trot transitions, and OMG...I couldn't touch his mouth!! Lol. Again, I reiterate, that Forrest is a horse with GO and likes to run through your hands to avoid using himself properly. But he's hand people yanking on his mouth for years, so John said we would never win this battle, unless he learned. So through the exercise, I could only use seat, legs, and verbal to slow him down. And John was like, "I don't care if it takes 6 years for him to walk, DO NOT touch his mouth!" It didn't take 6 years, but like 6 trot circles before he'd finally slow to the walk! Lol. But the more we did it, the better he got, and the faster he responded. John said I have to not only rebuild a trust with him, my hands, and his mouth, but also teach him there's more to riding that someone pulling on his mouth. He said once I can get more control of his body through my own body, life would get so much easier for us both.

So in 45 minutes we improved working through seat/leg response, shortening his stride and really making him lift his back and use his hind. Usually at the end of my rides, Forrest is just sweating under his saddle pad and maybe his neck and chest areas. But John showed me how he was REALLY sweating in his lower back near the SI area top and bottom of his belly and his stifle and that is what I wanted to see because he was finally working those areas he needed to get stronger.

So at the end of the ride I said, "So John? Your 2 year estimate to fix this? Do you think we can get it down to 1 year?" And he said, "Absolutely! I gotta be honest, I was not looking forward to this lesson today because of the last clinic we had and not being able to breakthrough on anything with him. But you've done a REALLY good job with him since then, and now we can really see the things we have to fix and build on. He is 200 million percent better than he was in October and I saw it as soon as you got in the saddle. Very nice job!":loveshower::loveshower::loveshower:

These are my favorite stills captured from the ride. My position is hideous in a couple, but John says I just need more work building my core. It's hard with Forrest because he never quits trying to make you let go of the reins. But for me, the focus is not on me in these pics, but on Forrest, and you can REALLY see how hard we worked to shorten his strides and really lift through his back, even with him not really being on the contact. Which, of course, is why the exercises John gave us are so important. But even better, was having Helen there and absorbing everything John was saying so she can help us continue to improve. John gave her instructions on what she needed to have us do. He told her she needed to set up an exercise course for us and really drill us and be firm. I'm so excited!! 

The first picture is my favorite just because I've NEVER been able to get Forrest to shorten his stride that much and really lift through his back.


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## Rainaisabelle

I’m so glad to hear it all went well!!!! You guys look amazing! Forrest looks gorgeous and he looks like he’s getting somewhere. 

My friend used to work out in some of the big dressage stables over here and in Germany and she used to tell me all the stories about that exact exercise! Except they used to put her on the lunge with no reins and told her to get the Horse to stop with only her body ! 


Love hearing about this clinic and so happy for you guys!


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## PoptartShop

So happy to hear the clinic went well! Super!! 
You & Forrest look so good. I'm so happy you are both learning & improving on everything. Super happy for you. :smile: It's so lovely to know you are making progress & seeing it too.


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## Tihannah

Last page testing... I need my last page back!! It was a good page!!

Noooooo!!! :-(


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## Tihannah

Uggghhhh...really hate that a whole page of my journal is missing and have been hesitating to post to it, but really want to update...

Our rides just keep getting better and better. For the first time, I feel like I FINALLY know how to ride my horse. On Tuesday night, I thought about what @tinyliny said about my stirrups and took them up a notch. Changed the WHOLE game! Lol. I've taken them up and down before numerous times, but I also never really had a handle on riding this horse, so it didn't really matter. But now?? I can't even tell you how much it helped. My position feels much more solid now and it's not as easy for him to pull me forward outta my seat. My heels are almost forced down because my toes are drawn up, so my ankles ache a bit when I'm riding, but I figure it's something I will get used to. For some reason, it's also made me stronger in my seat and I'm better able to communicate when I need to bring him back.

He was just super tonight and we really focused on control and just putting him together. I think I got about 20 minutes of really good, solid work before he finally said, "Enough, mom! This is hard!" When he gets tired, he's like me, and kinda just throws everything out the window. But man, it's getting so good that I'm just giddy! John is due back in February and I'm telling you, he's not even gonna believe it! Lol.

But more than anything, I am learning SO much on this horse. He's teaching me balance and body control and the cues that make him go correctly. I'm learning how to keep him in front of my leg, but behind my hands at the same time. And getting to that place with him is sooo tricky, but I'm getting better and better at getting him there and keeping him there once I find it. And when I do, it feels incredible. He becomes so soft and easy and responsive. He's getting stronger and more supple everyday as well. 

For the chiro treatment, our homework for stretching before every ride was 3 tight turns (circles) in each direction where he has to step across and under himself, as well as back up 20 steps. When we started, he was constantly cheating about stepping under himself and I struggled getting him to back up more than a few step at a time. The chiro told me this was all due to the weakness in his hind and that it would gradually get better. Now? He can cross and step deep under himself and back up 20 steps no problem. Just his overall improvement is amazing and I'm so excited about the new year and all we are accomplishing. We seem to be on a roll right now and I just really hope to keep this momentum going!


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## tinyliny

hurrah!! for you!

I read this article way back, by Heather Blitz, in "Dressage Today" and it talked about how having a too long stirrup resulted in making people fall forward, and have a weaker seat. She explained it SO well. I went back and tried to find that article, but since I no longer have a subscription to that magazine, I cannot access online files. It would be from about 8 years ago? not sure.
I loved Heather Blitz, and when she did the part where she critiques three riders seats, from photos only, I learned a lot .

If someone has an online subscription and could find that article, I'd be much obliged.

I guess you 'd have to do some kind of a search with her name, because I cannot remember the title of the article, but it was concerning the seat.


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## PoptartShop

Gosh, that is great!!!  You are learning so much! I love it!
You guys really are on a roll, YES! John is going to be so proud of you both with all you've accomplished. 
Keep it up!


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## jaydee

Shame about the missing page. I keep hoping all of the lost stuff will come back.


Agree with the stirrups
If I have to ride a horse that pulls or leans I find it easier to go higher and (as a very skilled but tiny female instructor used to describe it) 'sit more square' in the saddle. It gives you a lot more security plus also a stronger driving seat if you need it for a horse that leans on the hands but needs more pushing to keep them forwards


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## Tihannah

I was genuinely surprised at how much it improved my position and how overall more effective I was in my seat and core. He could really feel me when i asked him to bring it back and responded so well. I feel like I'm finally learning some of the things I've been hearing dressage riders talk about so much when riding and how effective the body can be in communication. I love it!

We do, however, need A LOT of work on our whoa and go. It takes far too long to get him to walk and halt and a little too slow responding in going from halt to walk. I'm gonna ask my trainer for a lesson to help me get it under control.


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## Tihannah

We've had some good "aha" moments this week! Okay, not totally all "aha", some were just "I'm a twit" moments. lol

Forrest continues to get stronger in his hind and its getting easier to put him together and make him use himself properly. The first 10 minutes or so always start out as a fight where he's basically saying, "Let go! I wanna go long and stretched out!", but he gives up when he sees I'm standing my ground and praise him for doing what I ask. We've gotten waaaay better at maintaining a steady gait as well.

Last night was my "I'm a twit" moment. Lol. You see, I've been struggling with half halts and bringing him back. I don't wanna pull on his mouth, but it seemed that when I'd try to bring him back with half halts and seat, he'd just lean into my hands and push forward harder. He kinda reminds me of a racehorse where if you pull on his mouth, he just gets stronger and wants to go faster. So last night, while we were struggling, it finally hit me, and I just half halted on my outside rein. Take and quick release. And GOT DANGIT, whaddaya know?? Lol. I'd half halt on the outside rein, bring him back, then half halt on the inside rein to soften and encourage the bend and VOILA! My mistake was that I was half halting in BOTH reins evenly and it wasn't doing anything except making him lean harder! And as soon as I figured it out I was like, "You twit! You KNEW this already! What have you been doing?!":rofl:

I swear I'm learning so much on this horse. Things that I don't think I could've learned on Tess because my every struggle was just keeping her forward! He's such a challenge, but with every breakthrough I feel a renewed sense of excitement and think, "We can do this!"

So yea, I kinda figured out that I can't give him anything to lean on. The other thing I discovered is that he likes the french link! I was googling about bits for horses with fat tongues and several suggested the french link. I tried Helen's french link Baucher and he did great in it. He's still strong, though, mostly when we do poles, jumps, or canter. Even using the alternate rein half halts last night, it still took FOREVER to bring him down from the canter and then to a normal trot and not speed trotting. I turn him in circles and everything and he just keeps powering forward. So I started really looking into bits again. I know that he prefers the happy mouth style bits. He also like the french link better than the lozenge type joint, yet I still need something with a little leverage to bring him back. So...I ordered a kind of happy mouth, french link, bevel. A pic is below. The bevel bit was always my go to with Tess. She just went so well in it, so I really have high hopes that this will be the one that is a good middle ground for us. I know its not dressage legal, but we are far from showing.

And finally, chiropractor came out again this morning. He said Forrest looked great, but still does not have full range of motion in his right pelvis, so we are still in phase one to continue lengthening. He said there was definite improvement and that he was able to push his hip in even more this time. He said that the improvement I'm seeing in the saddle is a result of him having more range of motion and getting stronger in his hind. He said he is still using his neck to pull through right hind through, but it will continue to get better. Overall, he was very pleased with our progress and how well Forrest was backing up and crossing under.


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## Rainaisabelle

That’s awesome to hear


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## Tihannah

Hope everyone had a nice Christmas/Holiday! I took 4 days off of work and it was amazing! 

All of my kiddos (all teenagers) actually spent the entire day home with us and it was SO nice! It is rare that they are all home at the same time, but even more rare that they aren't tucked away in their rooms living their Snapchat/Instagram lifestyles! We cooked and played games and watched movies, and when their friends called they told them they were spending time with the family. It really warmed my heart.

Anyhow, GREAT new developments with Forrest. OMG!!!! Lol. I still haven't gotten the new bit, but honestly, I don't think we need it anymore! I think the french link baucher is going to work just fine. So last week, I can't even remember how it came about, but I stumbled upon a another forum discussion surrounding the Market Harborough. I think some people call it a german martingale? And the issues they were describing sounded a lot like Forrest. He's been doing good in the running martingale, but I still struggled with getting him consistent, and also fighting against my hands. I also didn't like how the running martingale restricted my rein motion, like opening my inside rein. The Market Harborough is very simlilar to the running martingale except that it runs through the bit and then attaches to the reins by clipping to hooks.

So anyway, I've tried dang near everything under the sun on Forrest, so I figured what the heck. Who knows? It may actually be something that works for him. It came today...and our ride was INCREDIBLE!! I love the setup of this martingale SO much. For one, the way it is set up, when he throws his head up, he is only fighting against himself and not my hands. Second, I can maintain a steady, soft contact and not be involved in the fight. My focus was to simply keep him in front of my legs and let him work it out for himself. It took about 10 minutes before he found a frame he was comfortable with and about 20 minutes before he started getting shockingly consistent and ON THE BIT! Okay, so here's what I love about this thing. It doesn't force him into frame, and if you know Forrest, he simply WON'T be forced into anything! It doesn't force his head down, but it doesn't allow him to brace and kiss the sky either. It seriously allowed him to just figure it out himself and almost make him think it was his idea, and once he found where he was comfortable, I was in complete awe! It also allowed him to stretch down as much as he wanted. And the longer we rode, the more he relaxed he was and just settled onto the bit. He was foaming and everything! Lol.

Now I know there are always going to be those who say these types of tools are bad and blah, blah, blah, but if you could've seen him. If you could FELT him. That stretch in the video was nothing. Ya hear me?? Nothing! He was stretching like nobodies business at the end of our ride! And he wasn't fussing or fighting and because he was more round and on the bit, it didn't take an act of congress to slow him down when he tried to get quick. We even practiced downward transitions and we were able to hold the frame and transition from trot to walk without him throwing up his head or bracing. And for the first time, my hands weren't aching from his constantly bracing against them or yanking at them. It was amazing. 

And don't get me wrong, I don't think this martingale is the total fix all. I think everything we have been doing up to this point has contributed to it working so well. But I also think this is a positive step in the right direction and will help him to further develop the strength he needs to forget his old ways of fighting and resisting the bit and teach him to use himself correctly. I am so excited and giddy and can't wait to ride tomorrow. Helen has been outta town for the holidays, but I couldn't wait to text her. I told her she's not EVEN gonna believe it when she sees him!


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## SketchyHorse

That's fantastic! It's all about effectively using without abusing the tool. My WB mare was very much like Forrest. Giraffe, leaning on my hands, if you wanted to fight - fine we were fighting. I used draw reins on her. Not because it was "easier" or "fixed" things, but because it allowed me to actually ride her & be effective. I would maybe do 3 rides then toss them in the tack trunk. We couldn't get anything accomplished if I spent the entire 40 minute ride fighting her. If she was fighting the draw reins it gave me a chance to push her through the "sticky" moments so we could get to the middle & end with loopy reins. 

Since I gave up on Dressage with her I just tossed her in a low port kimberwicke. Problem solved :lol: She'd tried to snatch the reins & the curb chain would catch her. Done, no more fights. We could have nice light contact then.

I'm interested to hear more about the work you accomplish in the german martingale  I bought one over the summer just because  (I have every "gadget" because I like to collect them - plus they do have useful moments). My trainer is very no gadgets style, but sees a purpose for them if needed, was fairly interested to try it out (she was reading an article about using them for jumping, I can't remember it anymore). My gelding would probably explode in it - so we're waiting for the right experiment horse to come along lol.


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## Tihannah

SketchyHorse said:


> That's fantastic! It's all about effectively using without abusing the tool. My WB mare was very much like Forrest. Giraffe, leaning on my hands, if you wanted to fight - fine we were fighting. I used draw reins on her. Not because it was "easier" or "fixed" things, but because it allowed me to actually ride her & be effective. I would maybe do 3 rides then toss them in the tack trunk. We couldn't get anything accomplished if I spent the entire 40 minute ride fighting her. If she was fighting the draw reins it gave me a chance to push her through the "sticky" moments so we could get to the middle & end with loopy reins.
> 
> Since I gave up on Dressage with her I just tossed her in a low port kimberwicke. Problem solved :lol: She'd tried to snatch the reins & the curb chain would catch her. Done, no more fights. We could have nice light contact then.
> 
> I'm interested to hear more about the work you accomplish in the german martingale  I bought one over the summer just because  (I have every "gadget" because I like to collect them - plus they do have useful moments). My trainer is very no gadgets style, but sees a purpose for them if needed, was fairly interested to try it out (she was reading an article about using them for jumping, I can't remember it anymore). My gelding would probably explode in it - so we're waiting for the right experiment horse to come along lol.


Forrest absolutely HATED the draw reins - with a passion! Lol. There was simply no negotiating with him and I struggled to maintain a balance or correct length between the draw reins and my regular reins. He fought them constantly and there was no convincing him to stretch down at all. He was either going to go up and try to brace and lock his neck or refuse to go forward and maintain a gait or rhythm. 

When I told my trainer I purchased this martingale, she said she really liked it because it was like a combination of the draw reins and the running martingale. I can't even explain why it works so well in asking him to soften and maintain, but it does. I mean it's really amazing. He's probably been bracing and locking his neck on people for years. At the same time, it doesn't make him dip behind the vertical because it's not pulling his head down. It more so encourages him to stretch down and out.

Because of how well he did yesterday, I had someone's mom from the barn call me last night and ask if I thought they should try one on their horse. Lol. But I told her no, I didn't think his issue was the same. He has no issues with going on the bit or rounding and looks beautiful in walk/trot. But his canter?? Absolutely NUTS! 

I mean seriously, he goes from a nice and smooth walk and trot round and on the bit, and then when you ask for the canter, he jumps into it like a crazy person (sometimes bucking) and just SO unbalanced, running, and almost leaping through the air. I've never seen anything like it. Her daughter, who's 14, is a bit scared of him now because of it. Several trainers have hopped on him trying to work him through it. John said he's just weak in his hind and uncoordinated and needs to learn how to carry himself in the canter. He literally canters like he's missing a few screws. I told her we need to get video to share here so maybe people can give some suggestions. Right now she's doing a lot of lungework in side reigns and Helen is going to start riding him as well. He's just too much for the poor girl right now and she's not even wanting to ride him anymore. :-(


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## knightrider

Here is a video of my riding buddy's horse @4horses. We ride together quite a lot and this mare is sound at walk and trot and only does this at a canter. If we are camping and ride 4 hours a day, by the 3rd or 4th day, she can canter without the bucking and hopping. It seems to get better with heavy exercise (but who of us can ride 4 hours a day on a regular basis?) Is this what your friend's horse is doing? This seems to be a stifle/pain problem, but the vets can't solve it.


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## Tihannah

Oh no, its way worse than that. I do think there may be a pain issue and he could benefit from some chiro work, but a lot of people at my barn tend to think the chiro should be a one stop fix all. It's hard to convince them that if a horse has been out for a long time, it could take several sessions to get them fully corrected. I cantered on him once when she first got him and it was like sitting inside a washing machine. I was like, "What the heck is that???" Lol.


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## jaydee

K was sold to us for a fraction of the original asking price after she was returned to her owner by the person who'd been leasing her with multiple problems including that hind leg 'cross firing' at canter. They'd had X rays and rectal ultra sound and found nothing physical to explain what was going on and no pain areas were found by a vet, chiro or the person I use to do massage/physio therapy.
The owner had kept an excellent video diary of her right back to when she was first broken to ride and she'd had no issues prior to being leased out. If the woman who had her knew what happened to cause the changes she wasn't telling anyone.
All of K's problems started when she would stiffen and brace herself in canter, as a result she wouldn't bend in the right direction and as soon as that started it was like riding a pneumatic drill that wanted to run off with you at the slightest chance.
Because she didn't do it on the lunge we spent a lot of time working her that way, she could/can canter in a relaxed way on the tightest circle on the lunge with no cross firing or bracing even in tight side reins
I'm convinced its a psychological thing and its the tension that builds up under saddle for whatever reason that causes the physical issues as a knock on effect


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## tinyliny

I started riding dressage on a school horse that the trainer put into a German Martingale. This helped the student, too, since I did not have the finesse at the time to help the horse 'find' the spot where he could move in comfort, and not be hollowed out and stargazing.

Yes, it is putting a hrose in a frame, so to speak. But, it is a start, and then the rider and horse get to where they both know there IS a good place , and the horse spends less time fighting/looking/evading, and is quiet, so the rider can start to ride back to front. That's the way it was put to me.


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## Tihannah

jaydee said:


> K was sold to us for a fraction of the original asking price after she was returned to her owner by the person who'd been leasing her with multiple problems including that hind leg 'cross firing' at canter. They'd had X rays and rectal ultra sound and found nothing physical to explain what was going on and no pain areas were found by a vet, chiro or the person I use to do massage/physio therapy.
> The owner had kept an excellent video diary of her right back to when she was first broken to ride and she'd had no issues prior to being leased out. If the woman who had her knew what happened to cause the changes she wasn't telling anyone.
> All of K's problems started when she would stiffen and brace herself in canter, as a result she wouldn't bend in the right direction and as soon as that started it was like riding a pneumatic drill that wanted to run off with you at the slightest chance.
> Because she didn't do it on the lunge we spent a lot of time working her that way, she could/can canter in a relaxed way on the tightest circle on the lunge with no cross firing or bracing even in tight side reins
> I'm convinced its a psychological thing and its the tension that builds up under saddle for whatever reason that causes the physical issues as a knock on effect


That sounds A LOT like my friends horse. It's like the moment she asks him to canter, he turns wild eyed and just takes off like a bat outta hell. And the trainers that have been on him can do repetitive transitions with him of trot to canter, and it can take 8 tries before he canters without acting like someone shot a gun off behind him. It almost looks like he's halfway rearing when he jumps into the canter. And the entire time, they have to hold him back and work hard to balance him cause he just gets nuts. And this poor girl bought him after coming from a 23 yr old 14 hand pony. He was listed for an intermediate rider, but they bought him anyway. :-/


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## Tihannah

tinyliny said:


> I started riding dressage on a school horse that the trainer put into a German Martingale. This helped the student, too, since I did not have the finesse at the time to help the horse 'find' the spot where he could move in comfort, and not be hollowed out and stargazing.
> 
> Yes, it is putting a hrose in a frame, so to speak. But, it is a start, and then the rider and horse get to where they both know there IS a good place , and the horse spends less time fighting/looking/evading, and is quiet, so the rider can start to ride back to front. That's the way it was put to me.


YES! And this is my hope. Because I'm still what you can consider a novice rider, so it's SO hard for me to take this basically big, strong, green 16yr old horse and teach or convince him that there is a better way to go. I think that as he gets stronger and gets used to it and begins to understand what I'm asking of him, that the bracing, fighting and refusal will become a thing of the past and we won't need any extra tools. I LOVE that I can be soft and steady on his mouth while he figures it out too. I think this a HUGE bonus for his retraining.

I'm so bummed too. The weather here is nasty today - rainy, wet, and freezing so I won't get to ride again tonight. Tomorrow and Friday aren't looking much better either. :-(


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## tinyliny

for a so-called 'novice', you ride well!


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## KigerQueen

i may have to look into the martingale. im still learning english and odie is good as giraffing but keeping his nose pointed down if that makes sence? he basically dose saddlebred things lol! He also has moments and will go from good to "OMG i saw a butterfly! Wait what is contact? no i must run with my nose to the sky!" it like riding a 2 year old colt with ADHD but is not motivated to do anything LOL!

SO glad you are getting places with forest!


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## Tihannah

Have had 2 more rides with Forrest in the new martingale and each one gets better than the last. I'm learning so much - both about him AND myself and how much what I do affects our rides. Tonight went really well and we rode in the dressage arena for the first time in awhile. I was very impressed.

Once when I had a lesson on Tess with John (my clinician), he said to me, "You have to ride EVERY step!" Tonight that really reverberated in my head as I rode Forrest. Finding consistency with him is still difficult because he is ALWAYS looking for a way around what you're asking, and will take advantage of any moment you give him to go off course. I realized that his lack of consistency was in part due to me not asking him to maintain or follow through quick enough. I'd get him soft and round, and then I'd kinda "sit back and wait" to see what happened. And of course, he'd come off the bit or try to toss his head up. But tonight, I focused on trying to stay in front of him. To half halt and catch him before he tried, and it worked remarkably well. And it was a constant reminder of half halts, but I'll be damned if it didn't work and then he started going longer and longer without coming off the bit.

I also realized just how much my seat and position was self defeating. I don't know exactly when I became so bad about pitching forward, but it definitely got worse with Forrest than it was previously with Tess. I'm about as inconsistent in my position as he is with staying on the bit, but I found that when I remembered to sit back and bring my shoulders back and tighten my core, he went so much better and I felt so much more in control of the movement. Towards the end of the ride, I was able to get him so consistently soft in the mouth and neck, that we were able to incorporate some counterbending and leg yields. The leg yields weren't great, but he was moving without fighting my hands. 

His weakness or difficulty in the right hind is so evident in our rides now. He still wants to use his neck to pull the right hind through, mostly when we're on right lead, but it's a lot better than it used to be. If we're going right and counterbend left, he's so much easier than going left and counterbending right. We had to do several repetitions before I could get him to soften and round his neck in the counterbend. With that said, I'm wondering if there's something more I can do to help him besides the chiro? Now that I know exactly what it is, I wonder if I should ask the vet if he has any recommendations? The osteopath that came down in September is supposed to be back in January. He adjusted his hip then as well, but he did it differently than what my chiro does. Maybe I'll give him a call and find out when he'll be in the area again.

All in all I'm really pleased with our progress and hope I can get some video to share this weekend. The weather is supposed to be nice. Sunny and 50s...

On another note, I was approached by someone at the barn tonight. Back when Forrest got the TMJ injection, the vet prescribed previcox for him. I ordered it online cause it was cheaper and got a huge bottle for MUCH less than what the vet charges and he's been on it since. Anyhow, this boarder asked if they could use my prescription to order some for their horse. Apparently their vet bill balance has gotten too high and they haven't been making sufficient payments, so the vet has refused them any further service until their balance is taken care of. Their horse has been off the Previcox for 3 months now, which I knew, but they always said something about the vet just forgetting to drop it off. So without thinking, because they are nice people, I said, "Sure, I'll send you the site I order from when I get home and you can use my login to order it." And then of course, on the drive home I started thinking about it. If I allow them to use my prescription to order it, what happens when I need to reorder? Will they then question why I am reordering so soon? They call the vet to verify prescriptions and what if he says no? I've never done this before, so I don't know if animal prescriptions work the same as people subscriptions in regards to refills and how often they're placed? Am I opening up a can of worms by allowing this?? How long and how often will they end up using my prescription to order medicine? So yea, now I'm not sure what to do...


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## Tihannah

Ride was nice today. We had some REALLY good moments and then, of course, moments when he'd had enough and was being a total butthead! Lol. I think the tantrums will become less and less as he gets stronger. We did get video, but I got a new phone and the video quality really sucks, so I took some stills from it. Really proud of the big lug!


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## seabiscuit91

WOW.

Is that seriously the same giraffe! You guys look amazing! That first picture is stunning!


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## Tihannah

seabiscuit91 said:


> WOW.
> 
> Is that seriously the same giraffe! You guys look amazing! That first picture is stunning!


Hahaha, I know right. We actually changed directions today and he stayed soft and on the bit and I lost all composure from excitement and threw everything out the window. Lol.


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## tinyliny

Now that you're sure all this isn't a mirage, or some kind of magic illusion, you can risk looking up .


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## Tihannah

tinyliny said:


> Now that you're sure all this isn't a mirage, or some kind of magic illusion, you can risk looking up .


:rofl::rofl: I'm sure it also contributes to my inability to lean back as well!!


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## Tihannah

So today I asked my guy to get some video while I was doing our routine stretches with Forrest before our ride. Well, just a few minutes ago, I was flipping through my saved videos on Youtube and found on of his old sale videos from July. I decided to clip them together to show how hard we've worked the past 6 months. I think he looks amazing and like a younger horse. Pretty pleased with how far he's come. 

FYI...The videos are kinda deceptive as he was VERY underweight in July and has put on a lot more weight and muscle since then. That is not the old owner in the video. Think it was a friend helping.


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## tinyliny

Yeah! he is sooooo much looser in his movement in his hind end. , and more interested in his surroundings and engaged in life. looks very healthy.


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## Rainaisabelle

You've done so well ! I think you have struck gold! You should do a video from when you started riding until now I bet there is a huge difference in him


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## Tazzie

He really has made remarkable progress. You should be VERY proud! He's always been a handsome boy, but it's a night and day difference compared to how he was. Phenomenal job!

I'm also glad you had time with your family  it really is quite wonderful!

Forrest is just so handsome! Goodness. Those recent under saddle pictures are incredible!


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## SketchyHorse

I <3 the then & now video. You can really see everything you've done just shine. 

And those pictures! You're doing fantastic! But yes I did want to just push you back into the saddle >.> Lol. Don't worry I have the same issue. It's why I started doing my lessons in my Dressage saddle again lol.


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## Tihannah

SketchyHorse said:


> I <3 the then & now video. You can really see everything you've done just shine.
> 
> And those pictures! You're doing fantastic! But yes I did want to just push you back into the saddle >.> Lol. Don't worry I have the same issue. It's why I started doing my lessons in my Dressage saddle again lol.


I swear I watch my videos repeatedly and think, "Why can't you sit back and look up?!?!" I think part of it is that when he softens and drops for me, I just instinctively want to lean forward and reach down to encourage him to reach further. I didn't have that problem with Tess, cause she was a friesian and just carried herself high and curled.

I've been watching a lot of Youtube videos to get tips on fixing my position. I really need to get back into a regular lesson schedule to have someone on the ground constantly reminding me.


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## Rainaisabelle

It’s really hard not to look down and ride!! You could buy one of those posture correctors they help remind you when you do start to hunch, I am horrible with it.


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## carshon

I think he looks amazing! and I agree younger! No help on the riding as I think you are doing a smashing job.

Makes me want to get out there and work with Tillie to improve her topline.


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## Tihannah

Rainaisabelle said:


> It’s really hard not to look down and ride!! You could buy one of those posture correctors they help remind you when you do start to hunch, I am horrible with it.


I've been looking at those too and wanna get one. I think it could really help with keeping my shoulders back.


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## PoptartShop

Wow, definitely a huge difference!  Look at him now! He looks great. So happy and proud of you guys! You have worked so hard and come so far already. Excited to see what is in store for this year!! <3
I love it!


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## Tihannah

Hadn't ridden since before NYE. Went out on NYE to help out cause we were short staffed. It was freezing, raining, and windy so I woke up on NY day sick. Today was my first day back at work and still wan't feeling great. Tuesday night around 8pm, I get a text from my trainer saying, "OMG! I forgot we have a clinic this weekend!" It's with the upper level eventer, so I quickly had to throw something together to get the word out on FB and instagram to try to get slots filled in a few days! Luckily, everyone loves her and we got the rides filled in quickly. But because I wanted to ride with her, I forced myself to get out to the barn tonight and ride.

I know the rest of the country is having a REAL freeze, but down here the 30s and 40s temps have been unusually cold and people have been losing their minds! Lol. We even had 2 nights in the teens and people just couldn't believe it. So yea, even though it was dark and cold, I had to go work my man. 

He...was...fantastic! Okay, not entirely, but we really did some good work. That new bit I ordered came in, and even though he's been doing well in the baucher, I decided to try it out on him. He could not have HATED it more! Lol. It took only about 10 minutes before I threw in the towel and took him back to the barn to change it out. I mean, he flat out said, "NO! NO! NO!" 

Once I put him back in the baucher, all was right as rain, and we went back to work. I really focused on my position and seat and it seriously made all the difference in the world. At the same time, we did A LOT of lateral work - bending and counterbending and leg yields just trying to get him soft and relaxed. The more supple I got him through the body, the softer he got until I had him totally soft and consistent on the contact in the walk. The trot was not as consistent (part of it was me and maintaining position and balance), but it was still really good work. And then the canter. Once I got him really soft and supple, I decided to give it a shot. Our right lead canter was hands down the best I'd ever gotten. He was soft and round and on the bit and consistent for 5 full 20 meter circles! It felt incredible! Left lead? Eh...not so much. Lol. But I think this is because of the weakness in his right hind. In right lead canter, he pushes off on the left hind, so I think it's easier for him. The left lead canter wasn't terrible, but it was no where near as nice as the right lead canter. But because he did so well and tried so hard, I gave lots of praise and pats and we called it a day. I was SUPER pleased. 

So yep, we are riding with the eventer this weekend. Doing dressage, of course, and we're the only ones. Everyone else is doing jump lessons with her. I rode him with her back in August when I first got him, so I think she's going to be pleasantly surprised when she sees how far he's come. I'm really looking forward to it. Wish us luck!


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## Tihannah

Clinic was SO fun and so good for us. We started out in the dressage arena, then moved to the jump arena to work some poles. Emily was adamant that I needed to shorten my reins. Forrest not so much. Lol. He threw a fit! He absolutely hates feeling locked in, and when I shortened my reins to where they should be, I guess he was feeling restricted and started to tense and lock up on me. So Emily suggested we incorporate pole work. I spent about 15 min warming him up before our lesson, so when we left he dressage arena, he thought we were done and heading back to the barn. When we instead went to the jump arena, he threw a mini tantrum - bracing, fighting the contact, and constantly trying to steer me back to the barn. We'd go over a set of poles and he'd immediately veer towards the barn. So finally, we just took him to the middle of the jump arena, and put him on a circle and Emily talked me through bending and counter-bending him until he relaxed and started softening again. Next thing I knew, he'd stopped fussing about the short reins and we actually got some amazing trot work.

I am on cloud 9 right now because just a month ago, I couldn't even get him to walk without pointing his nose to the sky, much less soften. Most thought 2 years before I could get any resemblance of a real horse outta him. And now? Well, here's the last 2 minutes of our ride today.:loveshower::loveshower:


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## PunchnMe

Oooooooh! A clinic sounds awesome! Wish we had the budget fer one. And if we had ONE around here. (Building on to stuff and not a very horsey place we live in :/ )


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## egrogan

I love your enthusiasm in the video- couldn't help but smile right along with you :grin:

He really is a beautiful horse and so worth the time and energy you've put into this partnership. Wishing you continued success!!


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## Tihannah

Today was another great ride. The joy I feel right now is almost overwhelming. Over the past 6 months, there have been many days where I felt like it was never gonna happen for us. Maybe I just wasn't a good enough rider and maybe he simply couldn't be fixed. Perhaps I was hoping for too much and there was a good reason I'd gotten him for the price I did. But now? The floodgates have finally opened and everything we've been working so hard for is finally coming to fruition. 

I got video again today. I really tried hard to focus on my position today. The canter isn't great, but I was really trying to sit back and drive him with my seat, as opposed to leaning forward over his neck. I think it made it harder for him and I didn't do enough to really sit and push, but half halt to put him together. He tried really hard for me, so I was very happy, cause I know it's not easy for him. I was really happy with his transition down to trot. We have always kind of fell out of the canter into a running trot, but I somehow managed to balance him into the trot so that he held the rhythm and didn't lose his balance.

After the ride, I let my daughter hop on him. He was a total saint and babysitter with her. Stayed right at my shoulder as we walked around and when I'd rub his face and tell him what a good boy he was, he'd kinda lower his head and close his eyes like he was just loving it and taking it all in. And I couldn't help but think to myself how incredibly lucky I am to be owned by such an amazing horse.


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## carshon

Just so HAPPY for you! I think you look fantastic in the videos and I LOVE that he gives pony rides too. That is one of the things I love about @Tazzie and how she and Izzy get to be partners and she lets her be a family horse too.

keep up the good work- way to start off 2018~


----------



## Tihannah

carshon said:


> Just so HAPPY for you! I think you look fantastic in the videos and I LOVE that he gives pony rides too. That is one of the things I love about @Tazzie and how she and Izzy get to be partners and she lets her be a family horse too.
> 
> keep up the good work- way to start off 2018~


Thank you!! And totally agree and one of my favorite things about Miss Izzie too! You know you have something special when they can be a fire breathing dragon in the saddle and then you put a child on them and they just know to be gentle and careful. These are the type of qualities I wouldn't trade for the world.


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## Tihannah

Rode the past 2 nights and well, it wasn't great. I was so confused. Forrest was fighting me, I mean really fighting almost the entire ride. Both times it took almost the entire ride to finally get a little consistency. Didn't change anything. Did our normal warm ups with a lot of lateral work, bending, counterbending, etc. He seemed fine at the walk, but he didn't want to trot unless I released contact and let him go inverted. He'd get rude and really yank at the reins. I just didn't understand it. So tonight, after our ride, I went in the feed room to check his feed and figured it was getting close to time to reorder his previcox so decided to see how many he had left. I ordered and received pills in October. Initially I gave him extra as kind of a loading dose and extra on days before a clinic figuring it could help. So ideally, I would have around 20 pills left - MAYBE...

I open the bottle and couldn't believe it. I poured them out and counted. He had 62 pills left!! Everything made sense and I was MAD. No freakin wonder! And this has happened a lot of the past few months. We'd have a couple great days and then all of a sudden he'd just be like NO! NO! NO! I immediately texted the entire barn staff and my trainer/BO and let them know what I found and that Forrest HAS to get his pill EVERY DAY. 

I'm almost certain that Forrest has arthritis in his SI joint and that we will likely need to do injections. But on the previcox, it will usually take about 10-15 min to get him warmed up and work through it. But the past few nights? It's taken almost the entire ride, and then I get like 10 min at the end of the ride where he finally settles onto the bit and stops fighting. I'm also asking him to use muscles he's never had to use. The vet recommended I keep him on the previcox until he builds more strength and muscle to help him work through it.

So yea, I feel terrible. He tries his hardest for me and I shoulda figured it out sooner. If I could be at the barn everyday, I would just give it to him myself, but instead I have to depend on someone else to do it. So tonight I gave him 2 pills cause I know he was hurting during the ride. Hopefully, they will get back to making sure he gets it regularly and I will have to make sure I monitor it closely. Gonna let him rest the next couple days and hopefully, he'll be feeling better by the weekend. My poor guy. :-(


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## Rainaisabelle

That’s frustrating Tina, I am sorry that happened !! The clinic looked good though and so did that ride you did recently !


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## SketchyHorse

Couldn't like your post because that's super frustrating  My mare needed to be on Previcox to stay comfortable. If she missed one dose it was like starting all over again. Which according to my vet it pretty much _is_ starting over again. It takes 7 days to work back into their system.

I get the frustration! At least I had only myself to blame when I didn't get it refilled quick enough >.>


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## Tihannah

SketchyHorse said:


> Couldn't like your post because that's super frustrating  My mare needed to be on Previcox to stay comfortable. If she missed one dose it was like starting all over again. Which according to my vet it pretty much _is_ starting over again. It takes 7 days to work back into their system.
> 
> I get the frustration! At least I had only myself to blame when I didn't get it refilled quick enough >.>


Totally! It was even more frustrating because I've spoken about the previcox with the person that normally mixes feed several times and her horse is also on it! Even offered to lend her some when she ran out, so she KNOWS how it important it is for him to have it.

He has been doing so well, and finally starting to get used to the idea of contact. And I figure that it's always been associated with pain to him, which is why he's so resistant. I hate to take a step back, but last night was similar to 2 months ago when he would just overreact at the slightest half halt again. Like I'd slapped him or something. Super frustrating!


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## PoptartShop

Awwww, poor boy. :sad: Ugh. Don't blame yourself though, it's not your fault. I hope they give it to him regularly. Whoever is giving it to him needs to know asap that they can't miss doses! That is extra frustrating.
I hope he will be feeling better by the weekend too. You guys have been doing so well, & had such a great clinic. :smile: Fingers crossed!


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## Tazzie

Tihannah said:


> I open the bottle and couldn't believe it. I poured them out and counted. He had 62 pills left!! Everything made sense and I was MAD. No freakin wonder! And this has happened a lot of the past few months. We'd have a couple great days and then all of a sudden he'd just be like NO! NO! NO! I immediately texted the entire barn staff and my trainer/BO and let them know what I found and that Forrest HAS to get his pill EVERY DAY.


The above is the exact reason I've started meal prepping for Izzie. @evilamc showed me those reusable Bento boxes, and I mix her MagRestore, her SmartPaks, and her grain into it. All BO has to do is dump the grain. They were forgetting her SmartPaks, which I had started spending a bit more to do to make it easier (as opposed to measuring a bunch of stuff out). Now I'm the only one in control of her grain. All that has to be done is the little box dumped in her bucket, and the box set aside. It's a pain, but it will prevent this from happening again :/ we store Izzie's in a metal garbage can with a bungie on it to prevent anything getting in (and it withstood a horse kicking the crap out of it to get to the grain).

Sorry you made this discovery :sad:


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## Fimargue

I'm sorry this happened to him. I would be absolutely livid and borderline ready to skin someone if something that should be done for my horse's wellbeing wasn't done as agreed.

I hope he feels better soon! 

Does Forrest have Flemmingh in his pedigree by any chance? Because I know a Dutch gelding that looks pretty much like him and he is by Vivaldi.

I love the way he moves and I think you did struck gold.


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## carshon

Is there a possibility the Osphos shot will help Forrest? We have a mare with Navicular (I know this is not the same as what Forrest has) but we were giving Previcoxx daily (and it helped) and I researched the Osphos shot and called the company and they said the shot acts just like the Previcoxx so you cannot give them at the same time. For us the shot helped even better than the Previcoxx and has lasted 4 months. Our mare is off for the winter but will be getting another shot in Feb to help her with trail riding this summer.

Just a thought - if the shot would work then no need to have someone remember pills daily.


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## KigerQueen

Osphos is also good at preventing more boney changes so will slow down and even slightly reduce arthritis so it would not hurt at all.


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## Golden Horse

OK, on the other hand, looking for the silver lining to your cloud...you found out what the issue was, and as throwing rocks at people, level of annoying it is, you now know for sure that the Previcox is a good investment. 

Keep fighting, you have this.


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## Tihannah

Fimargue said:


> I'm sorry this happened to him. I would be absolutely livid and borderline ready to skin someone if something that should be done for my horse's wellbeing wasn't done as agreed.
> 
> I hope he feels better soon!
> 
> Does Forrest have Flemmingh in his pedigree by any chance? Because I know a Dutch gelding that looks pretty much like him and he is by Vivaldi.
> 
> I love the way he moves and I think you did struck gold.


I wish I knew! His papers were lost 3 owners back in the midst of a divorce, which is part of the reason I got him so cheap. He does have the Dutch WB brand and was imported. I wish I had more to go on though. Would love to know his pedigree!


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## Fimargue

@Tihannah ****. Is there any way to find out with the microchip number? He should be found in the KWPN database. They didn't have his official name?


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## Tihannah

Fimargue said:


> @Tihannah ****. Is there any way to find out with the microchip number? He should be found in the KWPN database. They didn't have his official name?


No microchip. From what understand, over there, they stopped branding when they started microchipping. His call name was Ruben, but they didn't know if that was his papered name. I looked through databases for a Ruben, but wasn't sure if the spelling was correct either. Some were spelled Rubin or Rueben. The other down side is if he was a papered Ruben, that according to the Dutch database, he would be 19, not 16 or 17 because the "R" babies were for 1998. But 2 vets looked at him and said he was around 16, so I don't know.


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## Tihannah

carshon said:


> Is there a possibility the Osphos shot will help Forrest? We have a mare with Navicular (I know this is not the same as what Forrest has) but we were giving Previcoxx daily (and it helped) and I researched the Osphos shot and called the company and they said the shot acts just like the Previcoxx so you cannot give them at the same time. For us the shot helped even better than the Previcoxx and has lasted 4 months. Our mare is off for the winter but will be getting another shot in Feb to help her with trail riding this summer.
> 
> Just a thought - if the shot would work then no need to have someone remember pills daily.


Never heard of it, but will definitely look into it! Thanks!


----------



## Fimargue

Tihannah said:


> No microchip. From what understand, over there, they stopped branding when they started microchipping. His call name was Ruben, but they didn't know if that was his papered name. I looked through databases for a Ruben, but wasn't sure if the spelling was correct either. Some were spelled Rubin or Rueben. The other down side is if he was a papered Ruben, that according to the Dutch database, he would be 19, not 16 or 17 because the "R" babies were for 1998. But 2 vets looked at him and said he was around 16, so I don't know.


Gosh, how frustrating. Yes, the branding stopped in 2001 apparently and was only done to horses 3 years and over who were accepted in the studbook. Even that would suggest that he was born in 1998. :-( And if he was registered with the name 'Ruben', then I would definitely say he is a Jazz, because there is no way he is a Concorde, not with that movement - he is pure fine dressage bred. 

Here is the big guy by Vivalvi (Krack C x Jazz) that I know:


Here is Forrest's brother :wink: working: 




Here is another Vivaldi, though he has a finer head, as the guy I know has a huge head and he is around 17.2hh anyway.






Ps. Who is stupid enough to lose their horse's papers like that, in the moving? :icon_rolleyes:


----------



## Tihannah

Fimargue said:


> Gosh, how frustrating. Yes, the branding stopped in 2001 apparently and was only done to horses 3 years and over who were accepted in the studbook. Even that would suggest that he was born in 1998. :-( And if he was registered with the name 'Ruben', then I would definitely say he is a Jazz, because there is no way he is a Concorde, not with that movement - he is pure fine dressage bred.


Well, if he is 1998, I'm okay with that. He's still healthy and strong and doesn't mind the work. He has gotten an increase in grey hairs lately, leading me to believe he may be closer to 19. That first video reminds me of him SO much! From the build to the movement! I think you may be right! So glad you saw that! And we said that the first time we went to see him - 'This horse was bred for dressage! WTH is he doing here?!'

What I've been able to find out from his 3rd owner back was that he came from Florida. He said they sold him to them because he was getting summer sores in Florida. But they sold him to a western barn in Alabama that had a few kids who were jumpers. Makes no sense to me. This guys said he had his papers and passport, but somehow lost them in moving everything during his divorce. My guess is whoever had him, probably competed a lot and since he was in his teens and has the big scar on his leg, let him go for a fairly low price. When I got him, he had no hair around his eyes, just dark patches of skin and would get sweat sores under his arm pits near the girth. But all it took was me wiping his face down with a wet cloth after every ride before the hair grew back. I would put vaseline and baby powder for the girth rubs and they soon went away too. I felt like he just wasn't being properly cared for.

The western barn said he was too big and too strong for the kids and sold him after only a year to a 16 yr old in Florida. I saw several pics of him jumping in strong bits and dropped nosebands. She had him for 2 years before selling him as a "husband horse" to the lady I got him from, who was ALSO a western rider. They didn't have the first clue how to ride him and he was too much horse for her husband who was looking for a quiet trail mount. She used him with lesson kids for about 6 months. When we saw the ad, I thought it was a scam. He was advertised as 2nd level dressage, 4ft jumper, safe and sound for $4k. When we got there, it was quickly evident he was not 2nd level and lacked quite a bit of training, but we couldn't get over the movement, the willingness, and the temperament. When I told the owner he was definitely not 2nd level, her response was, "Well, I know my friend took him to a dressage test and he passed!" :| We honestly believe that he just ended up in a lot of the wrong hands and became accustomed to having to defend himself from strong hands, strong bits, and unbalanced riders.

Initially, we believed it would only take a few weeks to get him to accept contact and realize he didn't have to fight anymore, but as you can see, it's taken much longer than that. My other trainer Helen has jumped him and said that while he will jump whatever you point him at, no one ever really TAUGHT him how to jump - to balance him and shorten his stride and correctly pace him up to a jump. 

I'm very pleased with his progress though. I had to verbally teach him cues to canter and then come back down to trot. Now I can just sit, put my leg back, and he will instantly jump to canter. I move my outside leg back to position, and he now knows it means to trot. I can balance him coming from canter back down to trot as well. Before I had to TELL him canter before he knew, he just thought I meant go faster. Lol. Then we would just be flying around and I'd have to fight to bring him back and slow him down. He'd fall into a ridiculous running trot going 80 miles an hour and I'd have to lean back and floor it like Fred Flinstone or he'd just keep going! Lol.
His backstory to me is really sad. That such a nice, well bred horse would be sold to people who had no idea what to do with him. However, I also know that if anything had been done differently, he would NOT be my horse, and I guess for that I am grateful.

Do you have anymore info on Jazz? Maybe I can search some babies named Ruben under him?


----------



## Fimargue

Yes, I agree. And he had probably quite a bit time off being a "husband horse". I'm definitely not one to belief that a 19-year-old is an old horse! I will personally let them work as long they are still willing. I rode one 25-year-old until she passed away. She loved working and got depressed without - I have never before seen a horse who would lay down and refuse to get up, and when she was working regularly she wouldn't do that.

What I have understood is that Jazz gives sharp and professional rides, but very talented horses. He is known to be quite complicated, but for example his son Johnson has apparently a lovely temperament.

Here is some discussion, if you haven't seen already:
Jazz progeny... [Archive] - Horse and Hound Forums

The Vivaldi son I know is very nice. He is very light and willing, unlike her dam, who I also know, who is quite a bit more complicated and not nearly as responsive. He has a very good work ethic and is always asking what he could do for you.

I also know a Cocktail granddaughter and she is hot, but settles to work. I like her.

I like them sensitive, and thus I have pretty much liked the modern Dutch. But if one has hard hands and no feeling, they just can't ride them. They just don't take the crap like some less sensitive ones.

You have done such an amazing progress with him! It's true that it takes time for the biomechanics and muscle memory to change. Talila had only done endurance when I got her, she had a racer's muscles and would not lift canter and I couldn't for the life of me sit to it, it was so rough. It's still a work in process, but now her muscles are round and she is much stronger at the core.
*
"Then we would just be flying around and I'd have to fight to bring him back and slow him down. He'd fall into a ridiculous running trot going 80 miles an hour and I'd have to lean back and floor it like Fred Flinstone or he'd just keep going! Lol."*

Haha, I so know this one lol.


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## Tihannah

Found a database that gave Offspring for Stallions/Mares. Could not find any Rubens/Rubin under Jazz for 1998. :-/ Found a few bay geldings, but that's a long shot! lol. The website is great (https://www.hippomundo.com) and just has a wealth of information, so I've just been digging and digging. A friend from the barn last night told me I should be able to send a hair sample in for DNA and they could probably match him to a sire?


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## AnitaAnne

Poor Forrest! That back story made me tear up...so good you took the chance on him. He looks so fabulous now!! 

He is one lucky horse to have you as his owner


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## PoptartShop

Awww...Forrest! :sad: He really is so lucky to have you. You are both lucky to have each other.  He may not have had the best past, but his future is brighter than ever!


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## Fimargue

Tihannah said:


> Found a database that gave Offspring for Stallions/Mares. Could not find any Rubens/Rubin under Jazz for 1998. :-/ Found a few bay geldings, but that's a long shot! lol. The website is great (https://www.hippomundo.com) and just has a wealth of information, so I've just been digging and digging. A friend from the barn last night told me I should be able to send a hair sample in for DNA and they could probably match him to a sire?


I have been looking everywhere for you, and I will still try because I'm stubborn like that. They had the same Ruben by Jazz in Horsetelex, and there he also has a second name 'Jordan's Ruben', here https://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/1599975.

DNA sample is a good idea. KWPN should be able to find out his origins.


----------



## Golden Horse

Tihannah said:


> When I told the owner he was definitely not 2nd level, her response was, "Well, I know my friend took him to a dressage test and he passed!"


:rofl::rofl::rofl:


----------



## Tihannah

Fimargue said:


> I have been looking everywhere for you, and I will still try because I'm stubborn like that. They had the same Ruben by Jazz in Horsetelex, and there he also has a second name 'Jordan's Ruben', here https://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/1599975.
> 
> DNA sample is a good idea. KWPN should be able to find out his origins.


Oooh, how exciting! What if that's him?? Lol.


----------



## Fimargue

It could well be him. KWPN database is where I found him first, only there he is bay, not brown. In other databases it is the owner who adds the horse. You have to be a member of KWPN to see the rest of the information, but I think it's far better put that money on the DNA sample.


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## Tihannah

So our past couple rides have not been great. I tried to ride Thursday night, but he was so resistant, that I gave up after only 10 min and just lunged him. He was yanking and pulling so hard at the reins and wouldn't go forward unless I released contact. It felt like we had stepped back in time 2 or 3 months and I was so frustrated. He even tried resisting work on the lunge, but I got in his butt and he worked, but with quite a bit of attitude - cantering for no reason, snorting, and what not. I gave him Friday off cause I just didn't want to have another bad ride and start feeling negative about our progress again. 

Every time something like this happens, I try to think there's a reason behind it. He's due for his adjustment, so maybe he was out in his neck again, hence the yanking and resistance? So yesterday I went out and checked his neck, and sure enough, he was blocked on the right side. I used treats and basically what I saw the chiro do, and was able to get him to release it. I even heard the pop! Then I gave him a good neck massage and was thorough with all our stretches. He was MUCH better yesterday.  

But...I first took him in the dressage arena and he was still being resistant and not wanting to work. We've been working there for the past few weeks and it suddenly dawned on me that he was probably sick of it. So I took him out to the jump arena and my guy set up a course of poles around the arena. As soon as we went over the first set, he settled, and went straight into work mode. We worked for about 20 min and he was great and back to his old self. He stopped fighting, yanking, everything. He still tried to periodically go above the bit, but for the most part, he seemed to enjoy it. It's so hard with this horse some days trying to figure him out, but I'm trying and learning.

Helen is finally back in regular rotation - yayyy! And she was there yesterday doing lessons and chatting with us. She was finishing up a lesson during our ride, so I asked her if she would hop on Forrest and see if she could get a little more consistency out of him. She hasn't been on him in months. She's a much better rider than me and I wanted to see how much of the resistance I get from him is attitude and how much is ability. She was only on him about 15 min, but said he was 200% better than the last time she rode him. She also said a lot of it was attitude and him just not wanting to do it. They had to have a few "come to Jesus" moments over the shorter reins, but of course, she won out in the end.

I got some video of her working with him and you can REALLY see the hidden natural talent in this horse and what he would be capable of if he would just give and accept the bit. There are a few really good moments, but he is, of course, ALWAYS looking for a way out. Throughout the video, she is using a lot of half halts to take and release, counterbend, and just trying to get him to maintain the contact. She is also trying to keep him in a slow trot. She discovered that he's still trying to understand how to use himself in this new way, so when you allow him to get too forward, it's harder to get him to be more consistent. She also discovered that he does better at sitting trot, than posting trot for some reason. She said he is a lot easier to balance and hold steady in the sitting trot.

We are meeting up again today to ride together and I will likely ask her to hop on again. He did great yesterday. I also told her that when John comes back, I would like her to ride Forrest in one of his lessons. I think it would be helpful for both of them to work him through a session and then Helen can use that to teach me on him. The video quality is terrible. I got a new phone and the camera on it really sucks, so I apologize ahead of time.

P.S. He's wearing his new bridle in this video and I LOVE it so much!! Lol

P.P.S. @Fimargue - I think this video really shows the movement of a Jazz son.


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## Fimargue

Congrats, you have a horse who piaffes. :wink: To me it looked like that was what she asked. He took his body under him and she gave the cues to further. 

I just have to disagree of her being a better rider than you. I'm sorry. Maybe this video is not the best to judge, but it looks like her hands are moving a lot, I see a lot of see sawing.

I found this sentence and I quite like it.
"To remain correctly seated, visualize yourself as a tree. Trees do not give nor pull and they do not get tense. If the horse pulls forward and/or down, don't give and don't pull; just try to keep your arms from moving forward. Sit quietly using your core muscles to stay in balance. Let the horse rebalance himself."

And maybe when he is fighting so much, it would be best to just send him forward instead of asking him for the slower trot. The frame comes from behind after all and having a relaxed, regular movement first.

He could also benefit from having the hands higher.

He is lovely and has certainly a lot of talent. 

Do you do flexing with him? I do flexing first on the ground and then in the saddle. Many are so stiff in the beginning.

See here: 




Like he says, it teaches the horse to not to fight pressure. As well as relaxes the neck muscles. I do a lot of flexing and stretching with the horses.


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## Golden Horse

I have to agree with @Fimargue, I do not like that rider in your horse, I know you are all trying to help him, but she looks far to active in her hands the whole time. Darn I can’t cut and paste on this thing, but the sentence about the tree I love, and have eventually managed to get there.

When he gives he looks amazing, so much scope, keep finding him.


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## Tihannah

I thought that would be said and I appreciate the viewpoints. It's easy to see that until you sit in the saddle with this one. He's VERY complicated and I know it looks like see-sawing, but he is see-sawing a great deal more than she is. All she is doing is catching him before he tosses his head to brace and asking him to stay soft. He tosses his head constantly, up, down, side to side, so what you are seeing is not so much her see-sawing, but her trying to keep the contact and ask him to soften. She is an excellent rider and her horses are trained correctly. Both TBs tossed away. One is trained to 4th level and the other is moving to second this year. 

Trying to push him forward into your hands has been tried many times by several trainers. He laughs at that attempt. The only way you can gain some sort of control with this one is to bring him back. It's hard to explain, but 2 well schooled trainers came to this conclusion. One is GP. He does NOT soften if you try to push him forward, he only goes faster and braces harder. I'm at the barn right now. That clip was at the very end of the ride and earlier shows exactly what I'm referring to. But I promise you, Forrest is a different kind of a animal and the textbook methods do not work with him. He has baffled many an upper level rider, so it's not fair to judge her on this or deem her incompetent. I invite anyone, ANYONE, to give it a shot on him with traditional methods. So far, no one has succeeded.... She has gotten more from him than anyone that has tried. My head trainer won't even get on him anymore because she couldn't figure him out and she's ridden some TOUGH horses.


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## Tihannah

Oh! I forgot to add that yes, we do a series of stretches before and after every ride for the back, neck, and hips.


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## Golden Horse

LOL @Tihannah, I still say I like seeing you ride him rather than her! Yes we don't know him, and I realize that he is very individual.....but that isn't pretty. LOL again you are never going to be bored with this one.


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## Tihannah

Golden Horse said:


> LOL @Tihannah, I still say I like seeing you ride him rather than her! Yes we don't know him, and I realize that he is very individual.....but that isn't pretty. LOL again you are never going to be bored with this one.


Nothing with him is, but I've never shared real video of how he goes with anyone except Cassie, so I can understand that others cannot appreciate what is seen here. You are comparing him to how a normal horse goes, while I am comparing him to himself a month or two ago. 

I won't share any more video of anyone else riding him. I'm fine with being critiqued all day, but for others, I post to show his progress.


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## Golden Horse

I'm sorry you aren't going to post especially as it reflects how you ride him in a good light, I am also sorry that I am obviously not appreciating what you want me to see, and believe me I understand your frustration. If you don't share all the journey, how will people understand when you finally get there, and how many steps it took to make it.


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## Fimargue

Please, I meant no offense. I just also appreciate more the way you ride him. You seem more solid.

I wouldn't call myself very traditional, I go mainly with the feeling and figuring out the horse with it. Been working with a lot of horses with pain issues and products of less-than-ideal riding.


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## Tihannah

No, I'll post videos of me riding him. I just won't post videos of other people riding him. He's just too difficult a horse and I get that he can make a rider look unskilled or wrong in their approach. I'm a noob so I already look like it. Lol. I just don't think it's fair to them. John rode him for 45 minutes and there wasn't 10 seconds of video worthy of sharing. At that time, he wouldn't soften an inch, and John rides 10-12 horses a day 5 days a week.

My videos probably look better because I give in to him a lot. I give him a long rein because he demands it and basically tells me he won't cooperate otherwise. When I asked Helen to hop on, I wanted to know how much was attitude and how much was ability. Most of it was attitude. In the parts where I'm saying it looks like piaffe, she is trying to push him into the contact and he is refusing and trying to supplement by trotting in place. This is where I struggle with him. I give in and say, "Okay, here's the rein, now please go forward." when I "Wow" in the video, it's because I'm looking at his body and not his head and the fact that he's really using his back and his hind and coming under himself. The 15 minutes she spent on him yesterday helped with our ride today. I was more adamant and didn't give in when I asked that he stay forward if I took up more rein and it actually worked. 

I still haven't read all of Fimargue's reply cause I was at the barn, but will go back to it, but let me explain the taking or "see-sawing" on the inside rein. This method was used by a British GP rider on my trainers horse who's like a bull and will object by rearing. When she refused to soften and get in his outside rein, she would lock up and rear. By making her give on only the inside rein, she couldn't go up and eventually gave in. With Forrest, it's the same except he uses the contact to lock his neck an brace. If you have consistent contact in both reins, his neck is like a brick wall and your half halts have no effect. The difference with Forrest is that he's incredibly thick headed and never stops trying to brace and will take any opportunity given. He will even take advantage of a simple pat on the neck and 'good boy' as an opportunity to take control and brace. In every single stride he's either trying to brace, grab the bit and hold it, or yank or run, or flat out refuse to go. And when you get off him, everything aches - your back, your hands, your thighs, and your neck! lol. You have to be on top of every evasion tactic and he works ALL of them all the time.


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## Fimargue

Years of riding doesn't tell anything about skill. You can be technically however novice, but you may still be skilled.

It's a lot of giving in some ways and compromising with some horses and you might have been right to do it with him. But that's good that he was again better today!

Piaffe is trotting in place. :wink:


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## Tihannah

Fimargue said:


> Piaffe is trotting in place. :wink:


Lol, yea, but I'd rather he just go on the bit without a fight!


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## Fimargue

Tihannah said:


> Lol, yea, but I'd rather he just go on the bit without a fight!


I know. 

I just read the page 14 and liked the part where you decided to forget his head and work his body. 

He has so much (presumably - saw the cantering giraffe photo just now) wrong riding behind him that it just takes time to undo it and get it right.

I have ridden some horses that were supposedly difficult. After the rehab they almost never were, and I never started with their head.


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## Tihannah

Fimargue said:


> I know.
> 
> I just read the page 14 and liked the part where you decided to forget his head and work his body.
> 
> He has so much (presumably - saw the cantering giraffe photo just now) wrong riding behind him that it just takes time to undo it and get it right.
> 
> I have ridden some horses that were supposedly difficult. After the rehab they almost never were, and I never started with their head.


It's really hard because the head and neck can get really crazy with him. I've never seen a horse use his head and neck to evade the way he does and in the beginning, people suggested he might be off in the vertebrae in his neck. The vet and chiro have both said no way. He would not soften AT ALL no matter what we tried. But when I started focusing on his hind and doing the chiro work and strengthening he went from kissing the sky, to stretched out, to stretch down, and now only in the past few weeks actually softening an rounding his neck. He wouldn't even soften on a loose rein on the buckle. He'd brace and point his head to the sky and then just try to take off with you. Even now at both the beginning and the end of our rides when I give him a long rein, I have to remind him that it doesn't mean he can brace launch his head up. 

So yea, there's A LOT of bad history there, but his continuous improvement gives me a lot of hope. My clinician said my biggest obstacle is breaking through the resistance in his head, because essentially, that's what I'm battling more than anything. And he's probably right, it may take 2 years before he goes quietly on the bit and stops fighting, but as long as he keeps improving, I will keep trying.


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## Golden Horse

Tihannah said:


> So yea, there's A LOT of bad history there, but his continuous improvement gives me a lot of hope. My clinician said my biggest obstacle is breaking through the resistance in his head, because essentially, that's what I'm battling more than anything. And he's probably right, it may take 2 years before he goes quietly on the bit and stops fighting, but as long as he keeps improving, I will keep trying.


Fergie was nowhere near the challenge that Forrest is, but it took well over a year before she stopped her default evasion of head between knees






to this, don't have anything under saddle, but on the lunge, she now stays in that 'mid range' stretches down looking for contact rather than curling under.






Keep the faith he will re set, it is just going to take patience and continuing to 'unlock' all his hang ups and resistances.


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## KigerQueen

i see what your trainer is doing. odie locks his neck and its what my trainer had me to today. i would force him to go straight but then bend his head one way then the next to stop him from locking up and grabbing the bit. i had to do it a few times today but he figured it out and stopped his shenanigans. the thing i have seen is sometimes a skilled rider wont always look pretty when they are fighting with a horse who is set in his ways. sometimes it takes a bit of ugly to make something go pretty.


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## Tihannah

I really questioned myself and what I was seeing in the video after the feedback, so I sent it to 3 horse friends, and asked them to tell me what they saw. They were all pretty much in agreement. None saw see-sawing. All saw a take and release of the reins asking him to soften and give in his jaw. My favorite one said:



> I don’t see see sawing. I see a horse absolutely ****ed he’s not getting his way, and a rider insisting on a bend and massaging the bit to keep a horse from bracing and doing his own thing. I was shocked to see him think about going up a couple times. He was MAD she wasn’t giving in to his demands.


Sunday I continued to build on what Helen had established. It was a little better, but I didn't push it. Changed it up and took him out in the mare pasture and trotted up and down the incline. It was fun, kinda like cardio work. Gave him off yesterday, and tonight? Our ride was incredible, and I finally broke through the wall in his head.

Held my outside rein and when he tried to go up or brace or lean on my hands, I did a quick take and release on the inside rein. When he tried to bend and twist his neck in awkward ways, I alternated the take and release to bring him back straight again. It took 10 minutes. 10 minutes before he stopped fighting! After that, I only needed subtle reminders when he went too far above the bit, but he stayed soft and didn't lean into my hands at all. It was amazing. I've never been able to ride him without him yanking or fighting or leaning into my hands until they were sore. The only difference was I kept him on a longer rein than she did and I let him go more forward. He was too forward at times and I struggled to bring him back, not wanting to touch his mouth, but I was so happy with him being soft and carrying his own head that I didn't care. He even stayed soft in our downward transitions from trot to walk and had puffs of foam coming from his mouth. I couldn't believe it.

He did so well that I decided to unhook his martingale just to see. He's better than before, but definitely not ready yet. We worked for about 10 minutes before I hooked him back up. He knew the leverage wasn't there anymore and really pushed his boundaries. My hope is that in a month or two, he'll be ready.

We cantered in both directions, and for the first time on left lead, I got him to get off his inside shoulder. Right lead has always been easy, but left lead has always felt crooked and awkward. Helen told me it was because he won't get off his inside shoulder. I used my whip to tap his shoulder and then gave a good indirect half halt to my inside rein and FINALLY, it felt like a normal canter.

The best part though, was easily the end of the ride. Usually, no matter what, once Forrest knows the ride is over and we're heading back to the barn, he braces and just tries to run back to the barn. The entire way we are fighting - me just trying to get him to relax and walk on a loose rein, which he never does. I usually have to bring him back to a halt 2-3 times because he won't relax and just walk. Tonight it was so easy. I gave him a long rein and as soon as he tried to throw his head up, brace , and run, I instantly reminded him with the take and release of the inside rein. I only had to do it twice. TWICE! After that he totally relaxed and walked stretched down and slow all the way back to the barn. It was amazing. I can't wait to ride again tomorrow.


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## Fimargue

Fantastic, Tina!! 

I think you are having just the right amount of give and take with him and that might be making the world of difference for him.


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## Tazzie

I love, love, LOVE how excited you are! YAY Forrest and Tina!! I'm glad his canter had the feeling of normal!! Dying to hear how tonight goes!


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## AnitaAnne

Good job!!! So nice you had a successful and fun ride!! 

He will get stronger in the neck with this work and the bracing should lesson. Much progress has been made!! 

I did not think Helen was seesawing on the reins either; she was trying to get him to understand to soften with a release of pressure, and no it doesn't always look pretty. 

Some horses find it easier to soften the neck in different gaits; walk and canter seem to be easier than trot for some.


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## PoptartShop

SO happy you had a great ride!  Yes!! I'm sure that canter felt amazing. Yay!
And that is great you got him to relax at the end. He will get the hang of it in no time. They always seem to want to race back. :lol:
I hope you have a great ride again today!!!  Let us know how it goes!


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## Rainaisabelle

Did I miss the video of Helen? 

It’s hard when horses really want to fight. I know when I first start riding Roy he was ugly absolutely 100% ugly. I don’t think I have footage of back then because it was disgusting he would fight you 100% of the way not matter what you did! My friend who is way more experienced then me got on him and it was horrid (they hate each other) she told me he’s just doing it because he isn’t getting his way of softened when he was asked and didn’t put up this much of a fight it wouldn’t be ugly but he was determined to win. Eventually he did get better but it took a really long time for Roy to settle.


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## Tihannah

That's the thing with Forrest. He's thick headed as a bull and very rarely gives up the fight. He never explodes (which is good) but he never stops fighting you either. And I think he's always been allowed to win, you know? 

But last night, it was like something finally clicked, and he realized that if he stopped fighting and was soft, I wouldn't be in his mouth. It was great. I really hope we can do it again tonight!


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## Rainaisabelle

Tihannah said:


> That's the thing with Forrest. He's thick headed as a bull and very rarely gives up the fight. He never explodes (which is good) but he never stops fighting you either. And I think he's always been allowed to win, you know?
> 
> But last night, it was like something finally clicked, and he realized that if he stopped fighting and was soft, I wouldn't be in his mouth. It was great. I really hope we can do it again tonight!


I know what you mean 100%, Roy would never explode but you’d get off wondering if you have actually won that fight with him? Roy’s better now so I have 100% faith Forrest will get better eventually and you’re doing everything right just have patience and persevere you’re doing so well!


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## DanteDressageNerd

Forrest has improved an incredible amount Tina from when you first bought him. It's really amazing how far he's come considering all the baggage that came with him. Training such a horse is a process and conventional methods will often fail with a horse like that, so you have to be innovative and willing to break some of the "rules" at times. There are always special cases and that's a part of training and developing horses. They go through stages and some of those stages simply arent pretty but you have to go through them if you want to have a well trained horse. Glad you've come so far together


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## Tihannah

DanteDressageNerd said:


> Forrest has improved an incredible amount Tina from when you first bought him. It's really amazing how far he's come considering all the baggage that came with him. Training such a horse is a process and conventional methods will often fail with a horse like that, so you have to be innovative and willing to break some of the "rules" at times. There are always special cases and that's a part of training and developing horses. They go through stages and some of those stages simply arent pretty but you have to go through them if you want to have a well trained horse. Glad you've come so far together


So good to have you back, Cassie!!


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## Tihannah

Had a really chitty ride Wednesday night. I don't know how much of it was me, and how much of it was Forrest, but it wasn't great. I was tired from a stressful week at work and I think he kinda knew that when I got in the saddle. He fought with me almost the entire time. It took probably 25 minutes for me to get him to settle and soften. I got about 10 minutes where he did great and then I dropped my whip. So I got off to retrieve it, got back in the saddle, and it was like starting all over again. I was so frustrated and just called it. I didn't ride last night.

This morning I brought my old chiro out. She does the electro light therapy that's kinda like acupuncture, so I thought that could help, and he'll get the rest of the day off again.

I also reached out to our senior trainer's vet. He's about an hour away, but I have a friend willing to haul us over to see him. I still can't help but think there's something else we're missing and this vet comes highly recommended. So he called me back this morning and I gave him the rundown on Forrest, his behavior in the saddle, everything we've tried, and my suspicion about his SI joint. He wants to do an under saddle lameness exam on him, since no one sees anything on the ground. Then he wants me to ride him for 5 days on bute to see if there's an improvement. He said he doesn't like to jump into doing injections unless he's certain there's an issue. He said that if Forrest shows improvement after being ridden 5 days on bute, then we can examine whether we need to do his SI or some other area. He also said that he has several approaches to the SI joint depending on the issue, so we would need to take a look at that as well. He said that if Forrest goes the same on the bute for 5 days, then we will know for sure that its a training issue.

I gotta say, I really like his approach, and I look forward to hearing what he sees. It's just hard for me to believe that all the fight and resistance in him is solely from training and I'd feel better if I could positively rule everything else out. It will be a couple weeks before we can haul him down there, but I'm really looking forward to what this vet may see or find.


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## carshon

It is awesome to hear of a vet who really wants to get to the bottom of something but does not want to just treat without really looking into the root of the issue. Fingers crossed for Forrest.


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## Tihannah

carshon said:


> It is awesome to hear of a vet who really wants to get to the bottom of something but does not want to just treat without really looking into the root of the issue. Fingers crossed for Forrest.


And that's what I really liked about talking with him. We have 2 main vets here - one doesn't deal with more serious issues and is more of a routine medical care vet. The other just likes to do treatments through a process of elimination - you know, just keep trying different things until we find something that works. Which can get really expensive. I would rather KNOW what I'm dealing with and figure out the best way to treat it and move forward instead of continuously throwing money at things that don't work.


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## Tihannah

Today was a good day. 

It started out, as always, with some fighting and resistance, but I took him in the jump arena and immediately started working him over poles. I wish I could explain why pole work and small jumps helps to relax him and subdue the resistance, but it does, so I keep going back to it. He was really great today, so I decided to incorporate a bunch of small jumps. It was loads of fun and he really seemed to enjoy himself. I've gotta look into getting a jump saddle. It's clear that he is never going to be happy being a straight dressage horse!

We got there early to try and beat the coming rain, but unfortunately we got caught in some of it. I didn't even care. Forrest was going so well that we just kept going and it eventually stopped. My guy came and took video. I brought my iPad since my new camera phone sucks and he was able to get some great clips. I forgot how much I love the iMovie app and was able to quickly put a little trailer together from our ride today and a few clips from a couple weeks ago. I think it came out really cute and one more to add to the journal of our journey!


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## Golden Horse

LOL, today our show team spent the day working with a sports coach, he usually works with other sports, we are the first equestrians he has ever worked with. Can't help thinking of Forrest, when Will was talking about motivation maps for our horses......


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## Tihannah

Decided to add another short clip with a couple small jumps, cantering, and a little trot where he was being amazingly quiet with very little fuss.


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## AnitaAnne

OMG Have never seen Forrest moving better!! That was fabulous! He was moving freely forward and when you asked for him to round his neck he DID! The light contact and not asking for too much seems to be working very well. 

Jumping and pole work is teaching him there is a reason to drop his head and give to the bit. 

Fabulous!! You are doing so well with him and both having FUN :happydance::happydance::happydance:


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## RedDunPaint

Oooh I got goosebumps watching that trailer you made. I love iMovie and use it _all the time_. It's the only app I use to make the silly videos I post on my journal too lol. I always love following your journal!


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## Tihannah

AnitaAnne said:


> OMG Have never seen Forrest moving better!! That was fabulous! He was moving freely forward and when you asked for him to round his neck he DID! The light contact and not asking for too much seems to be working very well.
> 
> Jumping and pole work is teaching him there is a reason to drop his head and give to the bit.
> 
> Fabulous!! You are doing so well with him and both having FUN :happydance::happydance::happydance:


Thank you! When I watched it, I thought, "He could be using his back and hind more," but I think it's good that I didn't push it, because he was even better today and not so resistant when I asked for more.

Today we only used 1 or 2 sets of poles, but didn't really need them. It took no time to get him to soften and stop resisting. We found our happy place pretty quickly and he was probably the most consistent he's ever been. Instead of going from long rein to short rein, I gradually shortened it slowly as we did more and more work. If I felt like he was getting too tense, I'd give him a little more room and before I knew it, we were working in a good frame with very little fuss. 

I feel like we are finally reaching an understanding about the contact and what I expect from him. He still tries to test the limits, but as long as I am firm, but fair, he accepts what I'm asking. He's finally realizing that a soft jaw and neck means soft hands and I think he appreciates it. So today, once I felt like the understanding was well established, I could then push him forward into my hands and get him to use his back and hind more. 

The problem with pushing him forward before is that he would never give in his jaw and neck. He'd just brace, lock his jaw and neck, and run with you. There was no convincing him otherwise. He's now finally starting to trust me and understand that I don't want to be in his mouth, and because of it, he's softening much quicker.

Our canter work today was amazing. Yesterday, for the most part, I tried to stay off his back in the canter and just let him go, as long as he was soft. But today, I really sat and tried to drive him from behind into the bit and make him sit. He gave me everything he had and it was incredible. A friend from the barn was driving in during one of our canters and was so amazed, she pulled over and got out of her truck just to watch. She said, "He looks amazing! He's actually using his hind and coming under! He looks so balanced and steady!" I was beaming from ear to ear.

Today was one of those days that's made all the sweat and tears worth it. For once, instead of feeling like a fight, it felt like a partnership. I gave him tons of pats and praise and when we got back to the barn, I gave him a bath and then a big bucket of his favorite treat hay topped with a scoop of grain. Normally, when I go to turn him back out to pasture, as soon as pull the halter off, he heads out. But today, he just stood there at the gate looking at me like he didn't want to be turned out and just wanted to stay with me. :-( I kissed his nose and told him what a good boy he'd been today and would see him tomorrow, but he stayed right there and watched me until I turned the corner of the barn. It was a great day...


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## Tihannah

RedDunPaint said:


> Oooh I got goosebumps watching that trailer you made. I love iMovie and use it _all the time_. It's the only app I use to make the silly videos I post on my journal too lol. I always love following your journal!


Its the best right?! I used to use it all the time, but my macbook crashed. Now I've got a Windows pc :-( so I've been using Movie Maker. It's fine, it's just not as easy with all the fun templates that iMovie has. I only recently realized that I could use my iPad! Lol. Heading over to check out your journal!


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## AnitaAnne

Tihannah said:


> Thank you! When I watched it, I thought, "He could be using his back and hind more," but I think it's good that I didn't push it, because he was even better today and not so resistant when I asked for more.
> 
> Today we only used 1 or 2 sets of poles, but didn't really need them. It took no time to get him to soften and stop resisting. We found our happy place pretty quickly and he was probably the most consistent he's ever been. Instead of going from long rein to short rein, I gradually shortened it slowly as we did more and more work. If I felt like he was getting too tense, I'd give him a little more room and before I knew it, we were working in a good frame with very little fuss.
> 
> I feel like we are finally reaching an understanding about the contact and what I expect from him. He still tries to test the limits, but as long as I am firm, but fair, he accepts what I'm asking. He's finally realizing that a soft jaw and neck means soft hands and I think he appreciates it. So today, once I felt like the understanding was well established, I could then push him forward into my hands and get him to use his back and hind more.
> 
> The problem with pushing him forward before is that he would never give in his jaw and neck. He'd just brace, lock his jaw and neck, and run with you. There was no convincing him otherwise. He's now finally starting to trust me and understand that I don't want to be in his mouth, and because of it, he's softening much quicker.
> 
> Our canter work today was amazing. Yesterday, for the most part, I tried to stay off his back in the canter and just let him go, as long as he was soft. But today, I really sat and tried to drive him from behind into the bit and make him sit. He gave me everything he had and it was incredible. A friend from the barn was driving in during one of our canters and was so amazed, she pulled over and got out of her truck just to watch. She said, "He looks amazing! He's actually using his hind and coming under! He looks so balanced and steady!" I was beaming from ear to ear.
> 
> Today was one of those days that's made all the sweat and tears worth it. For once, instead of feeling like a fight, it felt like a partnership. I gave him tons of pats and praise and when we got back to the barn, I gave him a bath and then a big bucket of his favorite treat hay topped with a scoop of grain. Normally, when I go to turn him back out to pasture, as soon as pull the halter off, he heads out. But today, he just stood there at the gate looking at me like he didn't want to be turned out and just wanted to stay with me. :-( I kissed his nose and told him what a good boy he'd been today and would see him tomorrow, but he stayed right there and watched me until I turned the corner of the barn. It was a great day...


YES YES YES! 

You did have a great partnership going and I do believe it was exactly the right kind of riding to gain his trust. He is not ready to be compressed into a shorter frame and he is using his back well. 

He will get there but the muscle development takes time. Gaining his trust and cooperation is very important; he is not a horse to be forced but will try his heart out for you once he trusts you. 

Don't have anyone else ride him for a while...


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## Golden Horse

Tihannah said:


> Normally, when I go to turn him back out to pasture, as soon as pull the halter off, he heads out. But today, he just stood there at the gate looking at me like he didn't want to be turned out and just wanted to stay with me. :-( I kissed his nose and told him what a good boy he'd been today and would see him tomorrow, but he stayed right there and watched me until I turned the corner of the barn. It was a great day...


This says that something clicked for him today, your partnership took a great leap forward....still going to end up being an eventer...


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## Tihannah

AnitaAnne said:


> YES YES YES!
> 
> You did have a great partnership going and I do believe it was exactly the right kind of riding to gain his trust. He is not ready to be compressed into a shorter frame and he is using his back well.
> 
> He will get there but the muscle development takes time. Gaining his trust and cooperation is very important; he is not a horse to be forced but will try his heart out for you once he trusts you.
> 
> Don't have anyone else ride him for a while...


You're right. I second guess myself a lot because I haven't been riding that long (3 years in May!), and often wonder if maybe someone else couldn't do it better and get him further, or what if I'm just wrong altogether, you know?

I guess I need to remind myself that no one knows him better than me and that he probably needs that more than anything else right now - someone that understands him. My heart is filled with so much joy right now.


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## Tihannah

Golden Horse said:


> This says that something clicked for him today, your partnership took a great leap forward....still going to end up being an eventer...


Hahaha! I think you maybe right! ;-)


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## KigerQueen

Glad he is getting better with you! Odie has decided that since we use a flash now he will pull a giraff too! so what was the martingale you using? might run it by my trainer lol!


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## Tihannah

KigerQueen said:


> Glad he is getting better with you! Odie has decided that since we use a flash now he will pull a giraff too! so what was the martingale you using? might run it by my trainer lol!


It's called a Market Harborough or German Martingale. He's just started doing that when you added a flash? Could it be too tight? I use a flash with Forrest, but I don't tighten it very much. I think I use the second hole on it.


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## AnitaAnne

KigerQueen said:


> Glad he is getting better with you! Odie has decided that since we use a flash now he will pull a giraff too! so what was the martingale you using? might run it by my trainer lol!


Why not just remove the flash? I rode (and competed) Dressage for years without one; my horse didn't like it so I took it off.


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## Tihannah

Much easier fix than going to a martingale! Lol. I can't wait for the day I can ride without one!


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## KigerQueen

we use a flash because he gapes and chomps at the bit non stop (even when there is no pressure on the reins). i mean he just evades all day long. he dose the head toss thing anyway with out without a flash. but he was particularly ticked off today when he could not fight it as much as he wanted. he will do it when i ride western too when i ACTUALLY make him work. and no its not a teeth issue. they where done not long ago. and the flash is not too tight. he can still open his mouth a bit. he just likes to fling his head up and open his mouth and do what he wants, not what i want. he is still green and was left that way for years so we are doing some fixing. if you look at the vid of our lesson on our my journal you can see he has moments then gets over it.


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## Tazzie

I'm so glad Forrest is doing so well Tina!! It really warms my heart seeing the progress you've made! And we ALL have rotten days! There have been days I've hopped off Izzie going "I'm selling this **** mare!!!" But the good parts always make it worth it, and I have feeling that is how it'll be for you and Forrest! You are the best thing for him though, and I know you'll get through it!



KigerQueen said:


> we use a flash because he gapes and chomps at the bit non stop (even when there is no pressure on the reins). i mean he just evades all day long. he dose the head toss thing anyway with out without a flash. but he was particularly ticked off today when he could not fight it as much as he wanted. he will do it when i ride western too when i ACTUALLY make him work. and no its not a teeth issue. they where done not long ago. and the flash is not too tight. he can still open his mouth a bit. he just likes to fling his head up and open his mouth and do what he wants, not what i want. he is still green and was left that way for years so we are doing some fixing. if you look at the vid of our lesson on our my journal you can see he has moments then gets over it.


Izzie has massive issues with bits since she's super particular. Can't do a single joint, can't be too fat, can't be too thin, etc. For a while she went in a happy mouth rubber bit. But since I had to wrap it in latex when she started chewing the rubber coating off (when she's learning something new she gets anxious as she wants to be totally perfect, and thus chews the crap out of the bit), it's not legal for Dressage. So we are trying another bit. But it may be he needs something different. Bigger is not always better. I'd take a hard look there and see what could be changed. Or add latex to the bit to soften it up. I also notice you post a lot with your hands. What does he do if you don't have contact and aren't in his mouth? It could be you need to be hyper aware of the pressure you are putting in his mouth.


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## Tihannah

Tazzie said:


> Izzie has massive issues with bits since she's super particular. Can't do a single joint, can't be too fat, can't be too thin, etc. For a while she went in a happy mouth rubber bit. But since I had to wrap it in latex when she started chewing the rubber coating off (when she's learning something new she gets anxious as she wants to be totally perfect, and thus chews the crap out of the bit), it's not legal for Dressage. So we are trying another bit. But it may be he needs something different. Bigger is not always better. I'd take a hard look there and see what could be changed. Or add latex to the bit to soften it up. I also notice you post a lot with your hands. What does he do if you don't have contact and aren't in his mouth? It could be you need to be hyper aware of the pressure you are putting in his mouth.


^^This! Forrest's giraffe syndrome was developed over time as a defense mechanism to heavy hands and harsh bits. The more you try to FORCE him to do something, the more resistant he becomes. It has only been with trial and error of using different bits that I've found what he's happiest in. He prefers either a happy mouth baucher or a french link baucher. He won't tolerate a gag or anything too thick or anything too harsh.

It has also taken months to convince him that if he softened, then he didn't have to worry about me being in his mouth. Some horses are super sensitive to contact and too much can only make them more tense and stressed. Forrest is definitely one of them. Training him to work off my seat and legs has been super beneficial in this! 

I don't use the martingale to stop him from going up. It just prevents him from locking and bracing in the giraffe frame. When he goes up, I use my legs or half halts as a constant reminder to ask him to soften and I try to stay soft in my hands as much as possible. You want the release or normal frame to be more comfortable and easier than the giraffe and bracing.


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## PoptartShop

Awwww...that is so cute that he didn't want you to go. You really do have a great partnership, in such little time, it has developed a ton!  That is lovely. He trusts you & enjoys your company. That is precious! You do know him better than ANYONE else & that really shows. Understanding each other.
That video is amazing!!!! So good! I do see eventing/jumping in your future!!! That looked like so much fun! I love it! Consistency is great, and I am sure that canter felt amazing. You guys look really good. So impressive.


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## KigerQueen

odie HATES any type of snaffle. he likes curb bits but the moment i actually ASK him to do anything he chomps. its a work ethic issue. he will get soft and look amazing for a bit. then he decides he is done working (after like 5 min) and has tantrums. the martingale is going to teach him that he cant get his head up during tantrums and he just has to shut up and work. and im not asking much from him yet lol.


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## Golden Horse

Sorry to side track your journal @tihanna, but just have to follow up on this..



KigerQueen said:


> odie HATES any type of snaffle. he likes curb bits but the moment i actually ASK him to do anything he chomps. its a work ethic issue. he will get soft and look amazing for a bit. then he decides he is done working (after like 5 min) and has tantrums. the martingale is going to teach him that he cant get his head up during tantrums and he just has to shut up and work. and im not asking much from him yet lol.


OK I get horses liking different bits but PLEASE do not tell me that you are going to combine a curb bit, and flash noseband and a martingale? 

Quite honestly I think that the majority of your issues could be solved by improving your hands...ask me how I know......PLEASE do not keep adding stuff to stop him doing things, ride him differently first, it will make a lot of difference.


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## Tihannah

@KigerQueen - I watched some of your Odie videos and he honestly doesn't look that bad. He looks like he's struggling with the contact. He seems to relax when you drop it. I think you mentioned that he's green? He could probably benefit from some transitions and lateral work and learning how to use his body. Once he becomes more receptive to your seat and legs, it becomes easier to work with a soft contact.

On another note...

The attitude returned in full swing tonight! Lol. That damned horse! He was just being downright RUDE - yanking and pulling and trying to just run when I asked for a trot. I swear he was acting like a chestnut mare, but I didn't let it get to me. Instead, I stayed firm and said NOPE, not falling for it. He put up quite a fight for about 15-20 min until I'd had enough and just told him to "KNOCK IT OFF!" 

I swear I think that horse understands me sometimes because he gave a loud flubber and then yielded. I still had to be quick and catch him every time he tried to test me, but he soon realized he wasn't gonna win this one. After that? Easy peasy, pumpkin squeazy! Lol.

We did some good trot work, a little canter, a couple poles and jumps and then he gave me a SUPER nice stretchy trot. His nose was practically kissing the ground and he seemed to really enjoy the stretch. It was downright lovely. And here's the thing...I've never taught him this. Or tried to teach him this. He's always just kind of done it on his own. Which makes me believe that somewhere in his past, someone rode this horse correctly. I think maybe he just got lost in the years between with bad riders. But the more he progresses, the more I feel like some of this is coming back to him.


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## RedDunPaint

If horses don't teach us patience, I don't know what will. I think they know us so well they'll stretch us to the limit, but then they'll give us the perfect moment and it makes it all worth it. Plus, it's super humbling. You'll come back from a great ride and think you finally have it all figured out, then the next ride your horse is like, "NOPE! Fooled you didn't I?" And we keep coming back for me. I always say I am gifted in communication skills because I ride a mare (and a redhead at that) and everything is a discussion lol.


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## Tazzie

KigerQueen said:


> odie HATES any type of snaffle. he likes curb bits but the moment i actually ASK him to do anything he chomps. its a work ethic issue. he will get soft and look amazing for a bit. then he decides he is done working (after like 5 min) and has tantrums. the martingale is going to teach him that he cant get his head up during tantrums and he just has to shut up and work. and im not asking much from him yet lol.


This is not a work ethic thing. This is a lack of understanding with a green horse, and a rider that is very heavy with their hands. In the videos I see a confused horse that hasn't been taught how to properly handle and carry a snaffle. There are also a ton of different types of snaffles/nicer bits out there. There is even a bar with no breaks in it on a loose ring, in case he prefers something that doesn't have a joint. There is such a gigantic selection of bits out there that there has to be something out there for him. Or wrap his current one in latex to soften it.

As I said, Izzie is picky. And she lets the world know when I get too heavy in my hands by chomping the bit. The minute I use my legs and seat, she quits. I fear all a martingale will do with Odie is **** him off and cause him to rear/potentially flip. He needs proper, calm work to understand contact, and you need to learn how to have independent hands so you aren't posting off of his mouth. This is not a dig on you. This is something every rider can learn to do better. I also worry about a flash, a curb, and a martingale. That is so much stuff to prevent a horse from giving the wrong answer it's going to go south in a hurry.

------------------------------------------------

Tina, silly Forrest!! I'm sure he understands more than you'd think! I'm glad you had nice work after his initial "NO!" The good ones keep you on your toes :wink:


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## carshon

Tina - I love going on this journey with you. I am not a technical rider at all but watching your videos and reading your comments is truly enlightening. Keep up the good work. I have my fingers crossed that you find out who Forrest "really" is both by his papers and his riding.


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## SketchyHorse

He just knows if he wasn't challenging you'd get bored  lol

I also agree with GH - you've got a future eventer on your hands lol. The jump video was fantastic to watch. He just really came around in his body & _floated_ around that arena. It was awesome to watch!


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## Tihannah

carshon said:


> Tina - I love going on this journey with you. I am not a technical rider at all but watching your videos and reading your comments is truly enlightening. Keep up the good work. I have my fingers crossed that you find out who Forrest "really" is both by his papers and his riding.


Thank you!! I really enjoy having people to share the journey with, especially those that can relate to the struggle! I often feel like when I'm talking to my guy about it or "non-horsey" type people, that their eyes just start to glaze over and roll in the back of their head cause they have no real idea what I'm talking about. Lol.

I also love documenting the progress we've made. I'd love to think that in a year's time, I can look back and say "Wow! Look at how I used to have to ride him in a martingale!" I see so much potential in him and he has taught me so much and has really helped me to develop my riding and get better. Nothing would make me happier than to finally get him to a good place where he needs no extra aids.


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## knightrider

Tihannah, I love the idea that Forest was once taught all these things by a competent rider and you can bring them back to him.

I once bought a dandy little appaloosa mare that we were going to use for jousting. After we got her home, we decided to see what other things she might know. Every time we showed her a new thing, she insisted she didn't know a thing about it, had never seen it, couldn't do it. For example, the first time I sent her over a small jump, she set the poles flying--she just smashed right through it. Each time, I'd start teaching her this new skill, she would suddenly show us that she knew it very well. "I just didn't think that was what you REALLY wanted," she would say. Jumping, going on the bit, sidepassing, riding solo--there were lots of things she could really do well, but she pretended she didn't know them at all until I started to teach her from scratch. Somebody in her history really loved her and trained her very well.

It would be so grand if that were true for Forest and you could find out who loved him and taught him correctly.


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## PoptartShop

@KigerQueen, I agree with the above. And softer hands really make a difference. What I learned is, you cannot 'rely' on the bit. It's moreso about your seat. You can have contact, yes, but putting too much pressure and using different equipment (like all 3 of those is just asking for a disaster) won't really help until you learn how to use your hands. I learned to have very soft hands. If you apply too much pressure to the mouth, they will yank their head up/around & get MAD.
When I leased Redz, I had to have very soft hands. He was very sensitive. It taught me a lot. Now, with Camden, I also have soft hands. He cannot have a rider with heavy hands as he is also sensitive & WILL let you know.
Hard to explain, but it really makes a difference.  

Anyway!

Tina, you have to keep him in check sometimes! LOL. That's funny. They sure keep us on our toes! :lol: Glad you got a nice trot out of him & that is lovely he was stretching down! Yay!!


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## Tihannah

knightrider said:


> Tihannah, I love the idea that Forest was once taught all these things by a competent rider and you can bring them back to him.
> 
> I once bought a dandy little appaloosa mare that we were going to use for jousting. After we got her home, we decided to see what other things she might know. Every time we showed her a new thing, she insisted she didn't know a thing about it, had never seen it, couldn't do it. For example, the first time I sent her over a small jump, she set the poles flying--she just smashed right through it. Each time, I'd start teaching her this new skill, she would suddenly show us that she knew it very well. "I just didn't think that was what you REALLY wanted," she would say. Jumping, going on the bit, sidepassing, riding solo--there were lots of things she could really do well, but she pretended she didn't know them at all until I started to teach her from scratch. Somebody in her history really loved her and trained her very well.
> 
> It would be so grand if that were true for Forest and you could find out who loved him and taught him correctly.


Lol, wow, that's awesome! I think that as he continues to get stronger and build muscle, more of the these things will come to light. Like the fact that he will practically piaffe if you make him. And his canter? Same thing. He can slow his canter down to where he's barely moving forward at all. I will be sitting on him like, "How is he doing that??" Lol. I'm pretty excited for the future and continuing to peel back the layers of this onion!


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## KigerQueen

Golden Horse said:


> Sorry to side track your journal @tihanna, but just have to follow up on this..
> 
> 
> 
> OK I get horses liking different bits but PLEASE do not tell me that you are going to combine a curb bit, and flash noseband and a martingale?
> 
> Quite honestly I think that the majority of your issues could be solved by improving your hands...ask me how I know......PLEASE do not keep adding stuff to stop him doing things, ride him differently first, it will make a lot of difference.



Oh LORD NO! **** i would NEVER do that! it was more of a fact that its not a mouth issue. and he is green but trainer said work ethic issue as well. he likes to work all of 10 to 15 min then he is done and wants to do his own thing. he is not a horse that enjoys work lol! but he is getting better. he is green at 11 so there is more work to be done. trainer wants me to use a martingale to teach him that either he likes it or not he is hitting that bit if he throws a tantrum and he will learn to just deal with it. im soft handed and he dose it even being lunged in side reins. he is just learning contact but is learning new ways of trying to evade so my trainer wants to cut off ways to evade before they become a habit.

ok im done hijacking the thred lol!


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## Golden Horse

KigerQueen said:


> he is green at 11 so there is more work to be done. trainer wants me to use a martingale to teach him that either he likes it or not he is hitting that bit if he throws a tantrum and he will learn to just deal with it.


Time to ask if you need a new trainer rather than new gadgets...


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## KigerQueen

my trainer is an amazing trainer who dose not normalt believe in gadgets and is one of the top trainers in the state. she believes that a running martingale will help him lern that head up is not the answer and that soft is. he is honestly good most of the time. he just hits a point where he is done working and starts the head crap. the martingale is to help him understand that it dose not matter if he wants to be done or not and tossing your head is not the answer. please watch the vid of the lesson before you condemn her training. its in my journal http://www.horseforum.com/member-journals/story-odie-684322/page32/. we can move the conversation there.

this is a horse who was broke at 3 for barrel racing and trailas, sat in his stall from the ages of 4-9 and then i came along messing with him and started him with english. we have had all of 5 or 6 lessons in the past 2 years. we are finally getting down to work so its new to him.m he is used to head up and hallow and me not really FORCING him to work. more of stealing rides.


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## Golden Horse

@KigerQueen, sorry if that is the 40 odd minute video, sorry not watching, can't even watch that long of my own horse....and the long shots are kind of boring....

If a horse has been off that long and is that green it is quite legitimate for him to only be able to 'work' for 15 minutes, I's let him rest when he is done.

FORCE has no word in horse training, he needs to LEARN where to hold his head not FORCE it.......yes words are important.


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## KigerQueen

we are not looking at frame. more of lets not flig your head like an idiot. now he has been ridden quite a bit i just have not asked much from him. he can and has worked for over 15 min. he is just a but add and has nor been seriously asked to do much in the bast few years. he used to drive cattle on a ranch and go for LONG trail rides and run barrels on the weekend. then life happened and he did nothing for years so its like starting over. and i dont even watch all the vid. the head issue starts at the END of the vid.


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## Tazzie

KigerQueen said:


> we are not looking at frame. more of lets not flig your head like an idiot. now he has been ridden quite a bit i just have not asked much from him. he can and has worked for over 15 min. he is just a but add and has nor been seriously asked to do much in the bast few years. he used to drive cattle on a ranch and go for LONG trail rides and run barrels on the weekend. then life happened and he did nothing for years so its like starting over. and i dont even watch all the vid. the head issue starts at the END of the vid.


He's still a very green horse. A dude string trail horse taken out and ridden with leg signals and asking to accept contact would also most likely be a green horse unless there was training prior. Odie didn't have the prior training. He's green, green, green. My advice would be (once pain is ruled entirely out), that he first learns how to use and balance his body. Ignore where his head is (and honestly, lunge lessons for you with no reins could help the issue a lot). I think the both of you could benefit greatly going entirely back to basics.

I'm also sorry that your trainer is the best in the area. Not having access to a good one is excruciatingly difficult. But a good trainer would never, ever keep working a lame horse.


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## Fimargue

I loved loved that last video. You look so good!! The way he moves just makes me want to ride a modern Dutch WB again, or a Hanoverian. One mare I adored looked and felt just like a big Arab. They really need that partnership. I remember clear as yesterday when things clicked with Talila. Eight months to our relationship.

I'm with you with the frustration sometimes. Life is never boring with mine. Was riding at the beach yesterday, because that's my arena now, and it was Talila's first time there. I got a snort and turn on the heels when we entered - "No, pony, this is where we work now". She settled to work and had some real nice walk, trot and leg yielding work, until I started with the sitting trot and canter. Yes, I'm inpatient and working towards my better knowledge sometimes (or often :icon_rolleyes. It was either slow canter that lasted couple paces, or when I let her to it was a fast canter darting out of the beach.... Yes, too early after four months of not working and one ride behind. Need to get that sitting trot swinging again and muscles back. I know it will come back. I make mistakes all the time, but luckily quite learn from them.

I'm a perfectionist and I often find myself thinking "I will never get this. Will have to quit and sell my horses". Then the logical stubborn fighter side kicks in and I try again, and again.

I think dressage must be for the masochist perfectionists. I was much happier doing "just" long distance lol. But the challenge and wanting to better myself all the time tempts me.


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## Tihannah

@Fimargue - I think you are so right. I've had many days with Forrest where I just wanted to throw in the towel and give up. It felt like I was fighting a lost cause. And then he'd give me 2 strides of softness and my hope was renewed! Lol.

Tonight he was flippin FABULOUS! Hands down, our easiest ride. Tonight really confirmed for me that we've reached a new height in our partnership. I felt it before I even got in the saddle. He was being so kind and soft as we tacked up and I talked to him a lot and gave him lots of kisses.  Have I mentioned that this horse likes kisses?? If you tilt your head up to him, he will plant one right on you as many times as you like. Lol. 

Normally, as soon as I swing my leg over in the saddle, his head shoots up and he starts plowing forward before I can even get situated. Not tonight. He stood there calmly and waited for me to get my stirrups. We actually moved out in a normal relaxed walk for probably the first time EVER! I immediately praised him. He was SO soft in the bridle. Although he'd periodically come above the bit, for the most part, it took only a soft tweak with my ring finger and he'd drop again. I couldn't even get over it. No matter what, we ALWAYS spend at least the first 10-15 min arguing. Not tonight. Tonight he was so polite. Instead of "Let GO! I don't wanna!!", it was, "Hey, do you mind if I... No? Well, alright then." Lol. It was nothing short of amazing.

We worked in the dressage arena for about 15 minutes, but I know it's not his favorite and he was being so good, that I took him over to the jump arena. Normally, when I change the scenery, I add another 10-15 minutes of fighting because he thought the ride was over. Again, not tonight, and we walked over on a loose rein. We did some walk and trot over poles and that's when I really knew how much better he was doing. Normally, it takes several attempts to get him to go over poles without throwing his head up. The chiro said that because of the weakness in his hind, he uses his head and neck to pull the hind through. Tonight he did not. We walked over them casually with his nose pointed towards the ground. I felt no struggle from him at all and it was amazing. I was so happy. Tonight was everything we've been working so hard for. Not just for him to understand what I'm asking or be soft in the bridle, but to be STRONG enough to do it. I praised him SO much tonight and I'm telling you, he loved it. Every time I told him what a good boy he was, his ears would turn back and then he'd give me more. He felt so relaxed and so calm. The entire ride was great, so I didn't push it. He gave me everything I asked, so I ended it early and hopped off right then and there. I gave him a few more praises and kisses and then we walked back to the barn. And he's such a sweet boy, I never touched the reins. I just said, "Come on. Let's go," and he walked right next to me the entire way as I talked softly to him. The bond felt so strong.

And who knows? Maybe it was the Super Blue Blood Moon tonight? Lol. But I enjoyed every moment of our ride.


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## Tazzie

I wish I could love this post a million times <3 I'm so excited to hear how amazing the ride was! It's so exciting he's regaining strength in his hind to allow him to stay calm and relaxed like that! Your smile is evident throughout the entire post, and I know you had to have been grinning the entire time writing it!


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## AnitaAnne

WOOT!! Your Dream horse now knows you are his Dream person!! Nothing better than horse and rider BOTH enjoying the ride

:loveshower::loveshower::loveshower:


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## knightrider

Love! your post! I am so happy for you!


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## DanteDressageNerd

I'm glad you and Forrest are continuing to grow together and figure each other out. I'm glad you're able to re-wire his brain and are slowly getting him to use his body in a way he never has in his entire life. So glad you didn't give up on him and have stayed the course, through the good, bad and ugly. It's just getting better and better. You can teach an old horse new tricks ;-)


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## Tihannah

Thank you all! I can't even describe the emotional high I'm on right now. Dressage in itself is so **** hard! Lol. And you know there are always days when you wish you could afford a nice schoolmaster where all you had to do was learn the buttons and let him teach you. But I can't lie, I think this is 10 times more rewarding. 

I've had a couple people who saw how difficult he was and asked me, "WHY did you buy this horse again???" And multiple people that thought he was a lost cause and that I'd never really be able to do anything with him. I was too green, and his past was too tarnished. That I had stalled my own progress by taking on such a challenging horse. But even as difficult as it has been, he has taught me so much! His HUGE gaits have taught me how to establish a more balanced seat. His resistance to contact taught me how to carry softer and more steady hands. He taught me to be more reliant on my seat and legs for control and not the horse's mouth. I look back at old videos of me riding Tess and posting off her mouth with heavy, unsteady hands and cringe. That poor mare was saint for putting up with my uncoordinated butt!

I think this time next year, maybe we'll be in a place to bring some ribbons home? Wouldn't that be a kicker?! Lol.


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## PoptartShop

LOVE the update. Where is the 'love' button when you need it?!  So so happy for you!!!
It is SO true- being with a 'difficult' or 'challenging' horse can teach you SO much. I was always told that when I was leasing Redz - NOBODY wanted to ride him. They were like 'why are you leasing him??' BECAUSE! I LOVE THE CHALLENGE! LOL. 
They are the BEST teachers. <3 

I think so, I see ribbons in your future for sure! This is only the beginning  So happy for you guys!!!


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## Tihannah

Had a fun weekend, but I'm definitely tired and hurting today! I don't know if it was the Super Moon, or the light therapy that Forrest got last Friday that gave us such a great ride last week, but he definitely hasn't been that quiet since! Lol.

Saturday I borrowed my trainer's CWD and decided to do some small jumps with him. It was fun, though rather ugly, but he really seemed to enjoy it. The jumps we did were nothing for him and I was too nervous to do anything higher. I somehow managed to pull the sciatic nerve in my back, as well as sprain my ring finger, so I'm feeling pretty beat up today. Not sure I'm cut out for jumping. Lol. 

Despite my injuries, I decided to ride yesterday too. We had so much fun that I wanted to try and do a few more jumps. Unfortunately, I was not up to par and we ended up just mostly doing trot poles. One of my jumper friends was there on her horse, and she's always loved Forrest and wanted him for herself. She's been jumping for over 30 years and wanted to take him over a few of the bigger jumps, so I said sure. As soon as she got in the saddle, it was very evident the level of understanding I've developed with this horse. The moment she took up the reins, even in the martingale, he was like day 1. Walking around with his head shot straight up in the air and fighting any kind of contact she tried to have. And she doesn't do dressage and doesn't really care what their doing with their heads, but when Forrest goes all the way up, there's not much you can do with him in any sense. So it ended up that me, with less than 3 years riding, having to talk this woman who's been riding probably since I was a kid, on how to ride my horse. 

Though she couldn't get more than a couple strides of soften out of him, she did take him over a couple jumps. He is such an incredibly careful jumper, but she was red faced and panting because she didn't know how to really ride him and he was not keen on her style of riding. I cringed when she pulled back on his face to slow him down or stop him. Fortunately, 10 minutes was enough for her, and I was relieved. When I got back in the saddle, I could feel him instantly relax, and he went back to being soft and walking stretched down. I whispered an apology to him and told him he was a good boy as she walked back to the barn with her horse. Watching this debacle confirmed for me what some of you have said. I can't let just anyone ride this horse. He's just too complicated and big and strong and no one understands him like I do. I'm a crappy noob rider with a crappy position, but I know my horse and he trusts me and I guess that's all that matters...

On a side note... Helen has decided to retire her 4th level mare who turned 18 this year. She has a younger horse that she's been developing and will eventually haul the older horse back to her parents' home. In the meantime, she really wants me to ride her. She's been telling me this for months, but I've always been apprehensive about it. This mare is on the hotter side, and even at 18, can still jump 4ft with ease and do a half passes and 2 tempi's like nobody's business. She looks incredible. So Helen wants to teach me on her. She says she can teach me so much. The mare is named Winnie, and Helen is adamant that Forrest is harder to ride. Lol. The difference is that Forrest doesn't have a temper! Lol. But I think it could be good for me. To learn how to ride a more educated horse. It's a great opportunity for me.


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## carshon

I am one who feels that some horses just are 1 person horses. And it seems that you are "his" 1 person. Go with it, enjoy the bond, relish in the partnership. These horses come once in a lifetime.

As for Winnie - ride her - gain some confidence and some tricks to take back to Forrest as you grow together.


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## egrogan

Hope your body is feeling better soon- ouch!

I think the opportunity to ride Winnie sounds great. I was talking to a couple of barn friends this weekend and they were describing a schoolmaster who used to be at our barn, and what it felt like to ride their first steps of piaffe and passage on him. It sounded like such a cool experience, one I'm not sure I'll ever have. I personally am wimpy and don't like the hot, unpredictable types, but if you've got Helen there to help work you through any dicey moments, with the bonus of getting to feel some of those upper level movements on a horse who can do them, sounds like a great learning opportunity!


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## Tihannah

egrogan said:


> Hope your body is feeling better soon- ouch!
> 
> I think the opportunity to ride Winnie sounds great. I was talking to a couple of barn friends this weekend and they were describing a schoolmaster who used to be at our barn, and what it felt like to ride their first steps of piaffe and passage on him. It sounded like such a cool experience, one I'm not sure I'll ever have. I personally am wimpy and don't like the hot, unpredictable types, but if you've got Helen there to help work you through any dicey moments, with the bonus of getting to feel some of those upper level movements on a horse who can do them, sounds like a great learning opportunity!


Lol, yea, I'm kinda nervous about it and told Helen I would only do it if she promises to stay close and talk me through it!


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## Tazzie

Ouchie!! I hope you heal up quickly!! Forrest definitely is your boy though! It's very evident!

And have fun with Winnie!! What a great opportunity!


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## PoptartShop

That is very true. Some horses really are just for one person. & there's nothing wrong with it.  It actually shows how much you guys just 'click'. Horses know their person!

Yeah, she may not be a bad rider but she just isn't a good fit for YOUR horse!  I'm sure he was relieved when you got back on. Like 'yes! This is how it should be!'. 
Don't push yourself too hard with the jumping.  Don't want you to get hurt. 
I hope you feel better!!!
But I think if you do practice a bit on Helen's horse/take some lessons on her, it will help you with your confidence.  You should!! Sounds like an awesome opportunity. Then when you do more with Forrest, it'll be a bit easier for you, you'll be more confident.


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## Fimargue

I like the hot, but not the unpredictable.  

I'm so happy for you about your bond with him. We really need to relish it when we have it. With Talila it took time, but it is strong. She is really my partner.

And yes, I feel the same about one person horses and how some horses just blossom with a particular person. The beauty of it. 

That's a great opportunity to get to ride Winnie! You should definitely welcome it.


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## DanteDressageNerd

I think that's fantastic that Helen is giving you such a great opportunity to ride and take lessons on a schoolmaster, that's fabulous!

Also I understand about knowing your horse unlike anyone else, sometimes it's not a skills thing. Sometimes it's a feel and understanding thing. It's hard on tricky, complicated horses. 

I'm sorry your back is hurting, I hope you feel better soon! If you do a lot of sitting, that is likely why. Hope you feel better and continue enjoying to jump


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## Golden Horse

Tihannah said:


> Lol, yea, I'm kinda nervous about it and told Helen I would only do it if she promises to stay close and talk me through it!


You will be fine, and you will have a blast...


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## Rainaisabelle

Take the opportunity! You can definitely do it!! You’ll be amazing


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## Tihannah

I rode Winnie tonight!!! aka Beasty! It was amazing! Lol. I was seriously fighting my nerves when I first got in the saddle, but Helen was great and right there to talk me through it. It took no time to understand her quirks and work through them. She's VERY forward and if you don't stay soft in your hands, she will lean into the bit and just keep getting faster and faster. I cannot lie. The past 6 months with Forrest really prepared me for this. I could've never ridden this horse coming off of Tess. I didn't even know what it was like to ride off your seat and legs! Lol.

She's SO sensitive to the seat and legs that she really makes you aware of every movement and your position. I've never ridden such an educated horse and it was amazing to feel her move off my legs with just slight calf pressure. Helen taught me how to do a proper shoulder in and shoulder fore at the walk. Next ride, we will try it at the trot. We did walk, trot, and canter and it just felt amazing. She has a really nice canter for a TB. I've been on a few that felt like sitting in a washing machine. Lol. We even did walk to canter! I was amazed at how easily she responded to the aids. And the lift in her back! She's so well muscled in her back that when Helen when tell me to collect her, I could actually feel myself lifting in the saddle. After only 15 min, Helen said, "You got this!" and then started riding her younger mare, and we were on our own. It was SO MUCH FUN! And even though I didn't always get it right, she didn't get frustrated with me. And when I did get it right? Holy moly, it was lovely!

Okay, so here's the thing. Helen doesn't want to haul her home anymore. Apparently, there's some conflict now with her parents about it, but she really can't afford to continue boarding 2 horses. So last night she texted me asking if I knew anyone that might be interested in leasing Winnie. I thought she was subtly asking if I wanted to lease her. Well, we really discussed it tonight and were hashing out the possibility of a few people. The problem is that a beginner can't handle Winnie - which is 90% of the people at our barn. The other 10% already have a horse. So Helen says, "You can ride her as much as you want until I find someone. I'd like her to stay in work. Maybe I'll put out an ad." 

And that's when I said it. "Maybe I'll lease her for a few months. I can learn so much from her, and I'm already aware of her quirks." And Helen was like, "What would you do with Forrest??" I told her I'd continue to ride him as well and try to use some of what I learn on Winnie to teach him. I saw her confused look and said, "You know I don't pay board for Forrest anymore?" She'd totally forgotten. Which is why she didn't ask me. We hashed through the details and she said she'd be happy if I'd just cover board and she'd continue to cover everything else - feed, farrier, etc. as well as include weekly lessons for us! She said if I didn't have Forrest, she'd just give Winnie to me and take her back when I was ready to retire her. She thought I did so well on Winnie, she asked me if I wanted to do a few small jumps on her. I told her NO WAY. Lol. Winnie is a BEAST when she jumps and I'm definitely not ready for that!

So yea, nothing is official yet. I took vacation all next week, so I'm gonna ride her as much as I can to get a good feel and really be sure about this. She does have a few quirks. She's the alpha mare and fully believes that it's her job to protect the mares when they're out to pasture. So if all the horses are out, it's far to difficult to bring her in to ride unless you have a buddy with her. If all the horses are in, then she's fine. If the horses are still out, she will break crossties, jump fences, even try to jump out of her stall to get back to them.

She was so much fun to ride tonight though and I think she could teach me so much. I felt like a real dressage rider on her and Helen said I could do some clinics and schooling shows with her. She's basically giving me free reign with her to learn as much as I want. This is an amazing opportunity for me to continue learning. I'm not sure how I could pass it up??


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## Rainaisabelle

I am so so so so glad that you rode her and it was amazing! I knew you would do so well with her ! Can’t wait to see what happens and how you translate this to Forrest !


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## Cherrij

OMG you are so lucky! I cannot imagine how you and Forrest will look like when you try the new things on him!
I am actually kinda jealous of your fabulous situation.


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## PoptartShop

YAYYY I'm so happy that you got to ride her & had such a great time!  Told you, you have nothing to lose. So glad you got on her. 
She can definitely teach you a lot. So exciting!


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## carshon

Woo Yoo! what a fantastic opportunity!!!


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## DanteDressageNerd

That's fantastic Tina! Riding Winnie sounds like a fantastic opportunity and to lease a 2nd horse to help you with Forrest is really fantastic! I'm glad that you've finally got a schoolmaster to school on and gain confidence and feel with. That's really awesome!! Also glad she gave you a confidence boost


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## Tihannah

I finally got to ride Forrest tonight. It rained almost every day this week and last night I rode Winnie, so Forrest hadn't been ridden since Sunday. I gotta say, just the little bit I learned last night working with Winnie made a really big difference in our ride tonight.

For one, I learned that I'm crooked in the saddle. I sit with my right hip forward and my left hip back. Last night on Winnie, I could get her round and bending easy on right lead, but just like Forrest, on left lead we really struggled. It was Helen that saw it. She said, "Your left leg is too far back. Move it closer to the girth." And then we had it and Winnie was round and bending perfect. 

I've always struggled with how I ask for canter. I think I put too much thought in it, you know. I kinda hold my breath and then quickly put my outside leg back and hope for the best. It's awkward and kind of uncoordinated and it usually takes a couple attempts to get it right. Well, just like with Forrest, Winnie was the same last night. The first time I asked for canter, she broke into a running trot instead and I had to bring her back and try again. 2nd attempt we got a few running steps before she jumped into canter. Helen said, "You're doing too much. Sit the trot 3 beats, then just slide your leg back and almost scoop with your seat." And that did it. From then on, I was able to get the canter easily. The other thing was how conscious Winnie made me of my leaning forward. Every time I lost position and started leaning forward, she would pick up speed. It would instantly remind me to sit back. As soon as I fixed my position, she would come back to a normal pace.

And finally, at the walk, Helen told me that I needed to let her have a little longer rein. She would get fussy when I tried to walk with her at the same rein length I used for the trot. Helen said she liked to stretch down more at the walk. And sure enough, she relaxed when I gave her some reach.

All of these things I applied to my ride with Forrest tonight and I got the same great responses I got from Winnie. Tonight when I asked for the canter, he jumped into it immediately with no hesitation. I even got better responses when I asked for the trot. We spent a lot of time working at the walk too, just trying to get proper bend, and get him supple through his body. I'm not kidding you when I say Forrest can get downright crazy with the way he throws his head and neck around. And it's so easy to forget that the source of the issue is his body and not his head. Tonight really solidified it for me. I kept him on a super soft contact tonight, trying to give him nothing to fight against. By doing this, I was able to really see that he wasn't tossing his head to fight the contact or the bit. He was tossing his head to fight the bend and being supple through his body. I finally realized that he only tossed his head when I asked for more bend. And that was when I took him to the walk and focused on the suppling and getting him moving off my leg. We started on a 5m circle and I spiraled him in and out in both directions. We did leg yield from centerline to wall and a lot of counterbending. And we changed directions a lot. I did it until he stopped throwing his head up and just accepted the aids and gave me the bend. And then when we picked up the trot again? It was fantastic! He felt so soft and supple and there was no craziness going on with his head. 

There's a video on YouTube of Charlotte D. riding this amazing young mare name Finotini. It's one of my favorite videos to watch because Charlotte LOVED that mare and talked about why she was so great as they coasted around the arena. At one point in our ride tonight, I felt like Charlotte on that mare. He was just carrying me in that big, floaty stride of his, and he wasn't fighting and I wasn't struggling. We were just coasting. And when we turned a corner and he didn't throw his head up, I whispered to myself, "I am Charlotte." It was a great ride...


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## Tazzie

I'm so excited about all these rides!! It's so good for you to ride another horse like that! And YAY for Forrest being so good! SO excited for you!


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## DanteDressageNerd

That's fantastic! I'm so glad to hear you're having such productive rides and Winnie is helping you transfer so much of what you're learning to Forrest. I'm glad you have a more educated horse to ride and help, that's awesome  Keep up the good work!


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## Tihannah

I got to ride not 1, not 2, but 3 horses yesterday! 

Helen and I attempted to ride her 2 mares together, but as soon as we got tacked up, she had a lesson show up, so I was on my own with Winnie. I felt a lot more confident this time around, but it didn't go as smoothly without Helen standing there coaching me. No matter. I managed to keep her under control, though not very round! Lol. I told Helen I definitely needed some real lessons on her. Helen used her younger mare, who is much more calm and easy, for her lesson, so I had to untack Winnie on my own. 

Thank goodness I'd told my guy to go get Forrest from the pasture, because as soon as we got in the barn and Winnie realized Val(Helen's other horse) wasn't there, she started flipping own. I couldn't even get her bridle off, and didn't even dare, because she was really acting up - calling out to Val, trying to run out of the barn, and just refusing to stand still. My guy brought Forrest and we had to put him facing her in the aisle. She was still acting out until he got close and nuzzled her a little, and then she instantly calmed down. Forrest is just amazing. He has such a calm, cool demeanor. Even when she was prancing and calling out and just being a nut, he just stood there calmly like nothing was happening. After that, I was able to halter her and get her untacked without the fuss. And I've seen him do this with other horses. There's another mare on our side of the barn that simply HATES other horses and has to be kept in a private paddock. Even when she's stalled, she's constantly gnashing out at her neighbor and kicking the stall walls whenever he pokes his head out. I was walking Forrest by one day and he just stopped to check her out. Her owner gasped, but the mare did nothing. Didn't even pin her ears. They sniffed each other and we moved on. Her owner was shocked. 

But this is the reason Winnie is going to be so hard for Helen to lease. Her behavior can be so erratic at times, and I'm not sure she's going to find anyone prepared to deal with that. Riding her was nothing, but untacking her was exhausting!

After that I rode Forrest, and it as NOT an easy ride. I tried everything, but he would have none of it. Anything other than a completely loose rein was cause for protest. Sigh... just one of those days I guess. I know I can't win them all with him, but there are some days I truly wish he could be as easy in the saddle as he is on the ground. :-(

And finally, I rode my friend SUPER green coming 4 yr old OTTB, Disco. He was basically a rescue situation. Someone young girl had bought him straight off the track and tried to make a barrel racer out of him. When that didn't work out, she posted an ad wanting to trade him for a barrel racer. A friend saw the ad and called my friend and said, "You have to go see this baby and save him." The girl was keeping him in a dirt lot with no grass or hay and he was skin and bones. She offered her cash right there to take him. This was last June.

When she brought him to the barn, you could see almost every bone in his body. Well, my friend is not only an animal lover, but an attorney with her own practice, so Disco couldn't have been rescued by a better person. He looks incredible now. I mean INCREDIBLE. He is so bulked up now that we joke that he looks like a halter horse. I mean muscled from head to toe! And his temperament is amazing. He is just the sweetest horse you could possibly imagine. My friend can put her grandbabies on him.

So he was the 3rd horse I rode yesterday, and OMG, he is so freaking adorable to ride! He doesn't know squat, but he tries his little heart out. It took us several laps around the arena to get him to understand when I was trying to turn him, but when he finally got it, he was great. I did some exercises with him and he really started to pick up on things quickly. I couldn't help but giggle every time we picked up the trot, he was just so darn cute! I love him so much and my friend said I could ride him as much as I wanted. She has another horse that she puts more work into and is still on the fence about keeping Disco. I told her she would be nuts to sell him. He's 17h of pure muscle and athleticism with the temperament of a puppy dog. He's such a clean slate and I really want to see what he develops into!

So yea, despite the crappy weather we've been having, yesterday was a really fun day. I soooo appreciate having the opportunity to ride both of these horses. I think this will really help me to become a better rider!


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## Tihannah

I WAS RIGHT!!!!

Went to the barn today, rode Forrest. He was still fussy, but better today. As I was riding, the vet showed up. Apparently he'd had an appt with my friend's horse. I saw him watching a little of my ride. After the ride, I went over to talk to him. Told him that I'd left a message with his office 2 weeks ago wanting to talk to him about Forrest's SI joint. He apologized and told me he'd never gotten it, then asked me if I wanted him to check it out. Of course I said yea!

He first checked his hocks, stifle, and hips and said they were all good. Then he checked his SI and BINGO! Just like I'd thought! The right side seemed a little worse than the left, but he said they were definitely hurting him. He also said that when I was riding, Forrest didn't look the slightest bit lame, and this pretty much explained his behavior in the saddle - not wanting to take the bit, or use his back. Helen was there during the exam, and he asked if we'd ever tried riding him in 2 pt. We said yes, and that he is definitely more relaxed when you get off his back. He nodded and said that was definitely it. So we injected him. He had his assistant bring the ultrasound machine and did it right away. He said to keep him on stall rest till Thursday and then I should start seeing a new horse.

I am SO EXCITED. I KNEW there had to be something more than just having a hip out. He is such a saint on the ground with such a great temperament that it made no sense how much he fought me in the saddle. My gut kept telling me it was his SI after all the research I'd done on it. And I was gonna take him to the vet across state, but it was still weeks before I could make it happen. But now it's done, and I have to get through the next few days. I am so hopeful right now. The thought of no longer needing a martingale to ride him- hell, the thought of him just being able to go like a normal horse makes me wanna cry. My birthday is this weekend and it would simply be the best gift EVER!

I'll be going to the barn the next couple days just to check on him, groom him, and make sure he has plenty of hay. Also going to put in some more rides on Winnie. Keep your fingers crossed for us!!! This could really be it!!


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## DanteDressageNerd

That's so wonderful Tina! I hope the injection does the trick! *crosses fingers* I cant wait to hear the update after a few days after the injection!

Im really glad to hear you're getting so many riding opportunities from various experiences of horses, that's great!! You'll definitely get better and develop a lot more feel! That's wonderful! Keep up the hard work and bring us some pictures sometime!


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## Tihannah

Went out to see my boy today and OMG! I'm so excited/nervous about tomorrow cause I think maybe it worked!!! He's on day 3 of being stall bound, so I took him to an enclosed pasture just to let him stretch his legs a little. We walked around for about 15 min off lead and he was such a saint just following me around. I took a seat on one of the jump setups and waved him off to go graze. He started wandering off and then decided to trot a few steps. Walked a little bit more and then cantered about 3 strides. And then it was like he suddenly realized that it didn't hurt anymore and just started galloping across the pasture! I was amazed because I've literally never seen him go like that, and I was also worried that it was too soon and he might hurt himself, but he looked SO happy. I let him do a couple laps around, then re-hooked his lead line and took him out. I just couldn't chance him hurting himself, but it really gave me a lot of hope for tomorrow. 

I managed to get it on video and a few minutes later, some friends showed up and I showed it to them. They were amazed cause they, too, had never seen Forrest go like that. I think I've only ever seen him trot in the pasture once. I'm sure some of it stemmed from being stall bound, but I definitely think he's feeling better! While I don't imagine he will just automatically go perfect for me tomorrow, I do think that if he's not hurting, there shouldn't be a lot of reason for him to fight it right? I don't know how I'm gonna be able to sleep tonight with the anticipation. Lol.

FYI...yes, I talk to my horse like he's my child. And yes, I know it has no effect, but he is, essentially, my 1300lb baby, and I love him.


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## Tazzie

Oh I can't wait to hear how today goes!!! He looks so happy there!

And I talk to Izzie like that too :lol: you're not alone!


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## carshon

Joining the group of "talks to our horsey kids" When I feed early in the morning and everyone is standing at the end of their runs - I tell each of them good morning as soon as I walk around the corner of the barn. And then I talk to each one as I enter their stalls to give grain and hay. If they have a lot of bedding on back and sides I always ask if they had a good rest or if they had sweet dreams. 

Forrest looks fantastic. The really happy look on his face and the pointed ears shows a happy horse. Fingers crossed your ride is the best yet!


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## DanteDressageNerd

Aww Forrest looks so happy, I know you showed me it earlier but I think we all talk to our babies like their kids. Absolutely no shame in that :-D

I'm SO happy it's working out for you two and the injection seems to be making such a big difference!


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## PoptartShop

OMG Forrest looks so happy after the injections!  Awww!!! He is a happy boy, not only because of that, but because he has you!

I talk to Camden like he's my child too. And my guinea pigs. :rofl: I think all my pets I do that...we can't help it. They basically are like children! LOL. <3 We love them! So happy he is feeling good!


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## Tihannah

Well...things didn't go as hoped or planned, like they ever do with Forrest! Yesterday I lunged him before riding. There was noticeable improvement in his hind, but he was still a little fussy with his head and neck - and differently in each direction. I only spent about 10-15 min lunging him and decided to just go ahead and ride. 

It did not go smoothly. He felt different in the saddle, but at the same time, was still fussing too much in the front end. I went to my "go-to" and took him over some trot poles. There was CLEARLY a difference. Usually, I have to take him over the poles 4-5 times before he manages to not step on one of them, but this time, he cleared them perfectly on the first try. Which meant he was actually picking his hind feet up! This made me happy, but his front end was still fussy. I just didn't get it. We tried to pick up the trot and he got even MORE fussy. At some point I looked down and saw his tongue just flapping around. I got off and looked and he'd somehow managed to get his tongue over the bit! 

After I fixed the bit, I got back in the saddle, but nothing was easier. I think I've mentioned before that for the past few weeks, he's been hanging in my left hand. This time was even worse. No matter what I did, I could not get him into my right rein. It was frustrating an I felt like we were getting nowhere, so I ended the ride, uncertain whether or not the injections had any real effect. This morning, I called the vets office and left a message to have him call me.

This afternoon I went to get him from the pasture, and he just did not look right. He seemed kinda sluggish and just kinda dragging along. Not at all the horse that was tearing up the grass just a couple days ago. I tacked him up and got on and he instantly went up like a giraffe. He was being so difficult, it was like Day 1 with him. I took him in the dressage arena and he fought me so much and so bad that I gave up after only 5 minutes or so. I dismounted, asked someone to hold him and ran to grab my phone. Something was clearly wrong.

Originally, we had an appt with the chiro today, but I canceled because of the injection. Our last adjustment with him was right before Christmas. We skipped January due to scheduling conflicts. I'd brought my old chiro out in January because she does the light therapy, but I honestly don't think she really knows what she's doing as far as real adjustments. So anyways, I texted my chiro and asked if we could still keep our appt. and he said he could be there in a couple hours. I was relieved.

You see, as we were getting regular adjustments, Forrest continued to show improvement. But we were now looking at almost 2 months, and he was displaying some of the same behaviors he did before we started getting routine chiro. So in my mind, I was thinking that despite getting the injections, we'd had plenty of time to throw everything else out of whack. And I was correct. He was out all over the place and I felt so bad.

He had 4 ribs out, his neck out in multiple places, his pelvis was locked up, knees - he was a mess! I wish you guys could've seen it when the chiro released his neck. Forrest literally looked like he wanted to make out with him. He instantly had these bedroom eyes going and looked at the chiro like, "Please do it again." He then totally stretched down and extended his neck until he was practically kissing the ground. It looked almost like he'd been given a sedative! When the chiro was done, he looked like a million bucks again. He had so much swing through his body and you could just see how much better he felt. The chiro said that we can't let him go that long between adjustments again until he gets stronger in his hind. He thinks the injections will definitely help this, but Forrest was already so far out of whack by the time I had it done, that I couldn't see the effect. So tomorrow, he wants me to only lunge him and make him do walk-trot transitions. He asked me to let him know how he's doing, and if he still looks out, that he will come back in a week and adjust him again. I feel so bad for letting it get this far. :-(

So tomorrow, we have another clinic with the eventer. Obviously, I can't ride Forrest. It would just be too much too soon, so Helen is going to let me use Winnie instead. I rode her a couple more times this week and she was fun as always, so I'm really looking forward to it. I accidentally did a flying change at canter on her yesterday. She's so sensitive that I unknowingly shifted my seat bones in the canter, so she changed leads! Lol. I will try again in the saddle with Forrest on Sunday. :|


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## Tihannah

I forgot to include Forrest's chiro report last night. It was one of the worst finding sessions we've had. :-( I'm desperately trying to remain optimistic. I so badly want to make him whole and strong and healthy again, but it seems like every time we start seeing improvement, we hit a brick wall again. I keep feeling like in the end, I'm gonna have to take him to LSU and get a final diagnosis on this battle with his body and whether or not we can actually fix him.


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## DanteDressageNerd

I'm so sorry you're going through so much with Forrest, it's like an expensive game of guess what's wrong? I'm glad the injection helped but I'm so sorry he was so out. It also takes a while to change their muscle memory after they've been physically wrong for so long. It's why I have Wonder on robaxin (muscle relaxers) and am wondering if he might need meso therapy across his back. To retrain his muscle memory without old memory causing problems. It's hard when you have a re-training project. The longer they've gone with improperly developed muscle, the longer it takes to fix. It's mind and body and takes time. Poor Forrest. I hope it feels better.


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## Tihannah

Rode Winnie in the clinic yesterday. It was LOADS of fun. She's so challenging and you really have to be correct to get what you want from her. Dressage is SO hard and there's so much going on with the body that you just can't see. I'm so uncoordinated that sometimes I feel like this is 10 times harder for me than it is for most people! Lol.
I think that my best quality is always blaming myself when things aren't right. I don't know how many times I either apologized to Winnie or the clinician for my mistakes! I'm riding and like, "Sorry Winnie! My fault!" Lol. 

She's really teaching me so much though. I've had 4 rides on her and already feel like she's helping me become a better rider. She quickly lets me know when my position is bad or I'm bracing in my body. I'm learning to use a lot of thigh and core muscles with her. I haven't yet got to where I can keep her consistent because I'm not consistent - in my body, positioning, and aids, but I definitely feel like I'm getting there quicker.

I only lunged Forrest yesterday, but I wasn't really happy with what I saw. He's still hurting or sore in his right hind. The injections don't seem to have helped at all and I'm really hoping to hear from the vet tomorrow. But I did remember something last night. I forgot that Forrest has been on Polyglycan the past couple months. A friend at the barn was prescribed it for her horse, but only used it once and said she didn't see any difference. She gave me her 2 remaining 5 ml vials. She told me that she gave them IM, but when I researched it, I read that it's supposed to be given IV. So that's how I gave them to Forrest. They're supposed to last 3-4 weeks. I gave him one in December and one in January and then totally forgot about it. Now I wonder if that's not the reason he was doing so well?? So I plan to discuss this with the vet tomorrow too. I have to get to the bottom of this!

Anyways, here are a few pics and a really short canter video from yesterday.


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## Cherrij

So sorry about Forrest! Hope everything gets better soon! 

Winnie looks good with you.. The only thing I see is that she seems heavy on the bit (seeing her face and mouth) but overall she is going good


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## egrogan

Tihannah said:


> Dressage is SO hard and there's so much going on with the body that you just can't see. I'm so uncoordinated that sometimes I feel like this is 10 times harder for me than it is for most people! Lol.


Haha, if it's 10x harder for you then I have no hope :wink:

I totally agree, there are so many times my instructor is talking me through how to do something, and I look at her and say "I truly don't know how I could move my body parts in both of those ways at the same time" and she just laughs and says, "yeah, it's hard. You'll get it." I think she doesn't fully understand how uncoordinated I feel the saddle!

Your ride looked lovely though. Winnie seems like a great, if tough, teacher.


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## Tihannah

Cherrij said:


> So sorry about Forrest! Hope everything gets better soon!
> 
> Winnie looks good with you.. The only thing I see is that she seems heavy on the bit (seeing her face and mouth) but overall she is going good


She is not at all. I cause it. Lol. She likes to go and in the process of constantly trying to bring her back I tend to get too heavy in my contact, so she will bare down and try to go faster. This is where I'm having to learn to use my seat, legs, and position more to bring her back. It is kinda like a reflex to want to puil back to keep her from getting too forward. I've only cantered her a few times, so this was a good experience for me. Our left lead canter was a disaster! Lol. We waited till the end of the ride to do it, and I had no strength left in my thighs to bring her back so we were all over the place.


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## Fimargue

She looks like a fun and wonderful horse to ride. Lovely compact mare.


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## SketchyHorse

Hoping Forrest starts feeling better soon. 

The clinic looks like it was fun! Winnie definitely likes to tell on you lol, but you rode her very nicely!


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## Cherrij

Can I suggest something? try at first from the ground and then translate to riding using the riding stick as a block. It gives a soft tap on the body parts that go out of alignment. For example, when doing a circle, sometimes a shoulder falls out and it can be difficult to get it back in, but a simple tap at the shoulder reminds it to go back where it is supposed to be. 
My horse has the tendency to work downhill, very much on the forehand, as he is a driving type, and recently he has had more lessons getting him together, not falling apart and in a half halt tap on the shoulder from the front reminded him that he should listen to my seat and slow down and balance back. Then the horse gets lighter in the hand, and rider can focus on the seat not pulling the horse back, as it does no good to anyone.


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## Tihannah

Cherrij said:


> Can I suggest something? try at first from the ground and then translate to riding using the riding stick as a block. It gives a soft tap on the body parts that go out of alignment. For example, when doing a circle, sometimes a shoulder falls out and it can be difficult to get it back in, but a simple tap at the shoulder reminds it to go back where it is supposed to be.
> My horse has the tendency to work downhill, very much on the forehand, as he is a driving type, and recently he has had more lessons getting him together, not falling apart and in a half halt tap on the shoulder from the front reminded him that he should listen to my seat and slow down and balance back. Then the horse gets lighter in the hand, and rider can focus on the seat not pulling the horse back, as it does no good to anyone.


I wouldn't dare get on her with a whip. This horse is far more educated than me and has been trained to ride without any additional aids, i.e. spurs or whip. I am just not yet to a point where I'm steady or strong enough in my aids to put her together. I confuse her a lot with my unsteadiness so I'd rather not incorporate anything extra. I've only had a few rides on her and only one in a real lesson. I think it will come with time as I get better and learn how to ride her better. She is not heavy in the hands. I am heavy in her mouth, because my core is weak.


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## PoptartShop

I think you look great on her, I love the video.  She is so beautiful!  Looks like a blast, I am glad you had a good time & so happy you get to ride her. 

I'm sorry to hear that about Forrest, I hope you get to the bottom of it soon. :sad: Poor guy. Ugh, that is so frustrating.


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## Cherrij

Tihannah said:


> I wouldn't dare get on her with a whip. This horse is far more educated than me and has been trained to ride without any additional aids, i.e. spurs or whip. I am just not yet to a point where I'm steady or strong enough in my aids to put her together. I confuse her a lot with my unsteadiness so I'd rather not incorporate anything extra. I've only had a few rides on her and only one in a real lesson. I think it will come with time as I get better and learn how to ride her better. She is not heavy in the hands. I am heavy in her mouth, because my core is weak.


Ok, that is a completely different situation. I am sure you will get better together when you ride more..


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## DanteDressageNerd

I think it's really wonderful that Helen has a schoolmaster for you to ride and offer you such a positive education. 

In the canter video, the issue is she's sending the weight down her inside fore because you're wanting to get the inside bend but lack enough inside leg to outside rein connection. You can use inside rein and keep it steady until she softens, then look over your outside shoulder to fix your position (Collapsing in) will correct your position like look over your outside shoulder to straighten your position and help her straighten. You can also counter flex her and use your outside leg to move her rib cage over and when she takes the outside rein, use your inside thigh to move her back to the inside but don't exaggerate. You may need a stronger outside rein half halt than you expect.

Bridging your reins can help you with the unsteadiness and help you become more steady in the contact. 

Overall I think you're doing a great job with her and you shouldn't be so hard on yourself, you have an amazing opportunity to learn embrace it and keep up the great work! Youre doing better than you think, when you lose confidence remember how far you've come in a short period of time!


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## Tihannah

DanteDressageNerd said:


> I think it's really wonderful that Helen has a schoolmaster for you to ride and offer you such a positive education.
> 
> In the canter video, the issue is she's sending the weight down her inside fore because you're wanting to get the inside bend but lack enough inside leg to outside rein connection. You can use inside rein and keep it steady until she softens, then look over your outside shoulder to fix your position (Collapsing in) will correct your position like look over your outside shoulder to straighten your position and help her straighten. You can also counter flex her and use your outside leg to move her rib cage over and when she takes the outside rein, use your inside thigh to move her back to the inside but don't exaggerate. You may need a stronger outside rein half halt than you expect.
> 
> Bridging your reins can help you with the unsteadiness and help you become more steady in the contact.
> 
> Overall I think you're doing a great job with her and you shouldn't be so hard on yourself, you have an amazing opportunity to learn embrace it and keep up the great work! Youre doing better than you think, when you lose confidence remember how far you've come in a short period of time!


This is what the clinician was trying to talk me through, but I lack the coordination. She was telling me to use my thighs and strong half halts on the outside rein to bring her back, yet maintain a softer contact. Mostly at the canter, I did not have enough thigh strength to bring her back and found myself holding the outside rein back instead of just giving strong half halts. You can see it better when I pass closer to the camera and how high my hands were. She was repeatedly telling me to lower my hands and soften, but I kept bracing trying to keep her back. Then because I was holding, she was baring down against the weight of my hand. So I had that going on, while still needed her to bend properly around my inside leg. But when I ride, I tend to focus on one aspect more than the other and struggle to maintain consistency in my ride. 

She's also sensitive, so at times when I applied the inside leg asking her to bend, I'd use too much leg, and she'd think I was sending her even more forward instead. She also kept telling me to shorten my reins, which is another issue I have. For some reason, I always feel like when I shorten my reins, I'm just taking up a stronger contact, when I shouldn't be. Throughout the ride I kept saying, "Sorry Winnie!! My fault!" because I know it is. She was fairly forgiving of my mistakes, but it's really helping me a lot to learn on her.


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## Tazzie

Ugh, I'm so sorry to hear about Forrest :sad: I really hope you get to the bottom of it SOON! Ugh!

But yay for a good clinic ride on Winnie! It definitely seems you're on your way to becoming a better rider! How exciting!


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## Tihannah

Haven't done much riding this week. Forrest has only shown minimal improvement since the injection and adjustment and I don't want to push him. I rode him only Thursday for about 15 minutes. He's no longer palpating sore in his SI region, but he's still struggling. He wasn't fussy or fighting so much as struggling to pull the right hind through. 

I called LSU and told them everything we've done. They want to do a lameness exam and likely a bone scan. My problem is that they are 2.5 hours away and they would want to keep him 2 nights in order to do the bone scan. I don't have a trailer, so I'm having a hard time finding people that can help me get him down there and then return to pick him up. Everyone has work or kids or school. :-/

So I spoke with my own vet again, and today we gave him the Osphos and Monday, when it arrives, I will start him on Adequan as well. The Osphos will take a few weeks, so I'm hoping the Adequan will provide some relief in the mean time. He showed such great improvement while on the Polyglycan that I'm hopeful this will help even more. I also called the chiro to see if we needed to do another adjustment, but he thinks we should wait and see how he reacts to the Osphos and Adequan.

It's so frustrating having 2 great months of continuous improvement and then just like that, it's gone. I can't even explain what an amazingly sweet horse he is, and how bad it makes me feel when he's like this and I feel helpless in making him better. I have such a strong connection with this horse now, that I feel like he would try to give me anything I asked, despite how much it hurts him. That's what it felt like when I rode him on Thursday and I just couldn't take it, and ended the ride. 

Today I gave him the Osphos and then just spent time with him, grooming him and letting him hand graze. Tomorrow I will likely do the same and just spoil him with some treats and extra hay.


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## carshon

We gave Osphos to our mare and saw improvement within 10 days. Fingers crossed you see improvement quickly


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## Tihannah

carshon said:


> We gave Osphos to our mare and saw improvement within 10 days. Fingers crossed you see improvement quickly


Thanks! I've been doing a lot of reading on it since you guys told me about it and am really hopeful. More than anything, I just want him to be comfortable.


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## DanteDressageNerd

I hope the university has answers! There is nothing more frustrating than trying to figure out what is wrong with them. It sometimes feels like a game of cat and mouse trying to figure out what is going on. I really hope the university will have answers and that Forrest will be good to go and in the best condition of his life! You've already done so much for him and done so much to continue his development. He's put on so much weight and muscle and his training has really come along. It'll come together, I have faith it'll all come together!


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## Rainaisabelle

I completely understand your frustration as I’ve been through it with Roy but if you need anyone to talk to I’m there for you ! I hope it gets worked out soon!


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## Tazzie

Hopefully the added stuff will help him! Fingers crossed!

As for the university, any chance someone could drop him off Friday and pick up Sunday? It'd be two nights... if we were closer I'd help in a heartbeat.


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## Tihannah

Haven't done much with Forrest lately as he's still too off. Tried to lunge him yesterday and it was clear he was locked up in his right hip again. He wouldn't even walk lunging right - would just take a few steps and then try to jump into either a fast trot or canter. I took video and got the chiro out again this morning. He said, yep, he's definitely locked his hip up again. He thought it strange since we'd just adjusted him a couple weeks ago, but said it's possible he did something while out to pasture. He said if it happens that soon again, then we need to get to the root of what's causing it. He was really surprised that I haven't seen much improvement from the SI injections.

As soon as he released the hip, Forrest looked so relieved, and was moving better again. Tomorrow, he wants me to spend 20 minutes going through sets of our exercises and then lunge him in both directions and see how he does. I'm trying my best to stay optimistic, but it's hard. I keep hitting a brick wall with this horse. It's also hard on me not being able to ride. Winnie has been leased out. With all that's been going on with Forrest, trying to get him well, and having to do $2K in repairs on my car, I just couldn't figure trying to take on the expense of a lease. Helen would let me still ride her from time to time, as the leasee is young and can only ride her during lessons for awhile, but I honestly just want to ride my own horse and he not be in pain to do it!

We still have a couple weeks to see anything with the Osphos, but I'm still keeping my fingers crossed on that as well. We've done 2 injections of the adequan so far, with 5 more to go there too. The weather here this weekend has been beautiful, so it's really sucked not being able to ride. My guy just keeps telling me I need to give up and find another horse. He doesn't get it that they're not just like old shoes, you can toss out. It just kills me that we had 2 consistent months of continuous improvement and now nothing. He's not even rideable. :-(


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## Rainaisabelle

I’m sorry you’re going through this Tina


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## Tazzie

I'm so sorry Tina :sad: I just read this post and I just want to hug you 

I do hope all you're doing helps. It just has to at this point :sad:


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## carshon

Keeping my fingers crossed for you and Forrest.


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## phantomhorse13

I am so frustrated on your behalf.

Forgive me for not remembering, but have you run a Lyme multiplex?


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## Tihannah

phantomhorse13 said:


> I am so frustrated on your behalf.
> 
> Forgive me for not remembering, but have you run a Lyme multiplex?


I have not. It's definitely his right hind, and I'm assuming it's been bothering him for a very long time and has just always been overlooked. He's not a horse that reacts or acts out to pain. He just kinda pushes through it the best way he knows how, so it ends up looking like a training issue.

I lunged him last night and he did MUCH better. I could tell he was still sore, but we kinda just worked through it and he got better. We started out doing walk-trot transitions in both directions with no side reins and he did well, so we added the side reins. Going left he did really well, but going right, I could tell it was still hard for him. He wasn't refusing or trying to canter and following through on my walk-trot commands, so I was pleased.

The vet came out this morning for a friend's horse, so I asked him if we could do the acupuncture again. The first time we did it, we did his whole body, but we focused the electro currents on his neck area only. This time we focused on his right hind, and I asked him to NOT sedate him. I read a university study where they said that sedating can reduce the effects of the acupuncture and you definitely want to see how they react to it.

Forrest was a saint, but fluctuated between seeming to really enjoy it, to "Wait! Wait! This is too much!" Lol. But for the most part, he was the good boy he always is, and the vet was really impressed with how well he took it. My friend was watching and remarked, "You have to fix this guy. You're never gonna find another saint like this." :-(

And finally, Forrest might get to be in a movie! Another barn friend's boyfriend works in tv/film, usually as a stunt man, and they are filming a movie in New Orleans (hour away). Anyhow, they need 7 horses to be background props and are paying $500 per horse. So my trainer picked a bunch of horses from the barn and we took pics to submit to them. They want tall horses, so I think Forrest is likely to be chosen. He's one of the tallest at my barn. How exiting would that be to see my boy in a movie?! Lol. 

I'm probably working late tonight and won't make it out to the barn, but fingers crossed we see a little more improvement tomorrow! I've been throwing everything but the kitchen sink at this guy, so I'm praying that something sticks!


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## egrogan

Just caught up and read through all the treatments you've tried. I do sincerely hope the two of you get some answers soon!

And the movie opportunity- how fun would that be!? We'd have to have a HF virtual viewing party once it was released :wink:


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## DanteDressageNerd

Have you tried meso therapy with him? 
Buckeye Veterinary Service :: Mesotherapy

Poor Forrest :-( I really hope you guys can figure out what's wrong with him. Horses are so frustrating, sometimes it seems never ending. I really hope you can find some solutions! He's worth it! 

That's awesome! The movie with Forrest sounds great! And the $500!


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## Tihannah

DanteDressageNerd said:


> Have you tried meso therapy with him?
> Buckeye Veterinary Service :: Mesotherapy


At this point, I'd try anything, but we don't have anyone in our area that does that sort of thing. :-(


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## DanteDressageNerd

Tihannah said:


> At this point, I'd try anything, but we don't have anyone in our area that does that sort of thing. :-(


That's unfortunate :-( it's a really effective treatment. I just had it done on Wonder. It's not cheap (About $300) but it basically numbs the nerves, so the muscles stop contracting and holding tension or spasming and it allows you to then re-train the muscles and build them up without residual tension. It helps break up scar tissue as well which is why I had it done on Wonder. I think he has scar tissue from racing. His xrays are clean but we'll see what the results are. I hope you can figure it out with Forrest!


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## Golden Horse

Movie star eh? I hope he gets chosen, do they pay expenses as well?

Still keeping everything crossed that you can find the key to unlock all his issues.


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## phantomhorse13

Tihannah said:


> I have not. It's definitely his right hind, and I'm assuming it's been bothering him for a very long time and has just always been overlooked.


Oh, I am not disagreeing that the leg is an issue, but wonder what is the underlying cause. I also wonder why he isn't holding his chiro adjustments - that goes along with Lyme in my experience (and the two equine vet/chiros I deal with regularly agree they have seen it cause issues with other horses, too). 

I don't know that Lyme is endemic in your area like it is up here, but just food for thought. You have certainly tried everything else imaginable!


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## Tihannah

***Warning! This is gonna be a long one!*

I'm gonna be brutally honest here. The past several weeks have been really tough on me dealing with Forrest... I spent 11 years of my life married to a really horrible person and as a result developed really bad anxiety and depression. Doctors tried to prescribe me things, but I never liked them and they always made me feel like a zombie. When things got really bad, it could take weeks to pull myself out of that dark place. It wasn't until I started riding again that the depression really lifted. It gave me a channel or outlet for my anxiety and kept me from falling back into that dark place.

It's been almost 4 weeks since I've been able to really ride Forrest. I'd still go to the barn several days a week, but he was still showing me that he hurt and just couldn't do it. My guy, horse people close to me, and even my vet were telling me that maybe I needed to give up. That maybe it was time to move on find something else. He's in his late teens and nothing was working and I could spend another $1500 to take him to LSU to get properly diagnosed and it could be something that I couldn't fix or take a lot more money and time to rehab him. BUT...the vet said, "It's still too soon to know if the Osphos worked or not."

I started getting really down and depressed. I love this horse. He is a saint and I wish you all could meet him in person to see just how amazing his temperament is. But I started to think maybe they're right. Maybe I can't fix him... and I started looking at sale ads again. And each day I became more and more depressed. I didn't even want to go to the barn because it made me sad that every day I showed up, nothing had changed and he was still hurting. 

Last Monday we did the acupuncture. Wednesday I went out and for the first time, he didn't react when I brushed him over his hip and SI area. Thursday he lifted his right hind for me just a little when I went to pick his hooves. He NEVER lifts his right hind for me. He will usually just tilt it forward and then I have to lift and hold it myself. Both days I lunged him and though he did better, I could still see him struggling a bit. I didn't go out Friday.

Today I took my time going out. Everyone was gone to shows and that made me sad too. We have a big Hunter/Jumper circuit that happens every year for 6 weeks, so in an effort to cheer me up, my guy suggested we go by there before the barn and see some nice horses and visit the tack shops. Every bay WB out there reminded me of Forrest, so I stopped in one of the shops and bought him a bonnet, some new polo wraps, and a standing martingale. Helen suggested I try one because of his resistance to the bit. She thought maybe he would be more receptive if he didn't have both my hands and a martingale messing with his mouth. I figured, what the heck? I've tried everything else.

When I got to the barn, from the very beginning, I could tell something was different. Usually when I go get him from the pasture, despite me repeatedly calling to him, he waits until I get at least 10 feet from him, before he will start walking towards me. If not, he will just stand there and wait for me to come to him. Today, as soon as I called his name, his head popped up and then he started coming. Even my guy was shocked. Lol.

As we walked back to the barn, even as I groomed him, he was so alert and looking around - just really aware of his surroundings. When I picked his hoofs, he gave me his right hind easily. And I mean REALLY lifted it. I looked at my guy and said, "I'm gonna ride him." I put the standing martingale on him, but didn't tighten it much. He could still lift his head pretty high. I didn't want him to feel trapped. As soon as I got in the saddle, I could feel something was different. He was moving better and he wasn't fighting me like he had the other times I'd tried to ride him in the last month. But I didn't stay in the saddle long.

We have 3 girls that work at the barn who all ride western. They were all hanging out and started asking about Forrest. They'd only really had experience with quarter horses, so I asked them if they'd like to hop and try him. They were excited and I gave them the rundown about his huge gaits and how it feels like he running away with you, but he's not and whatever you do, DO NOT hang in his mouth. I explained that if they try to just pull back and hang on, he would only go faster. The first girl did great, but she was not used to his size or gaits and a little nervous, so didn't stay on long. The 2nd girl was super nervous even though she knew Forrest was a sweet horse. She just wasn't prepared for his stride. The minute he started trotting, she was shocked, and instantly pulled back on the reins. He started going faster and then she lost her stirrups and couldn't post. She was flopping around like a rag doll, trying to pull back on his mouth, and he was just bracing and plowing forward. I could see she was about to come off, so just by some odd instinct, I threw my arms open and called out to him, "Forrest! Whooooaa!" He immediately turned and ran right into my arms and stopped. I rubbed him and told him good boy. Mouths were hanging open because he was nowhere near me. He just came to me. And I thought to myself, "I would be crazy to give up on a horse like this!"

After that, I put him on a lunge line and let them each try him - walk, trot, and canter and he was amazing and they were just giddy when they felt that canter. They couldn't believe how different and how much fun he was to ride. It was hilarious to see the looks on their faces when he cantered. He really does have an amazing canter. 

Anyhow, after that I got back on and rode and he was fantastic. He felt like he did back in January, though a little rusty. He wasn't resistant or fighting. We did about 20 minutes of trot work and he never once tried to quit or head back to the barn or just fight the forward. I had to keep slowing him down because he just wanted to go, go, go! Even my guy was amazed and said he looked nothing like he did the last time I rode. And just like that, my mood was lifted and I was on cloud 9 again. I felt so happy inside. I called the ride, and he walked totally calm and relaxed, head down, back to the barn. It was amazing.

I don't know for sure, but I think the acupuncture really helped and that the Osphos is finally starting to kick in. He really felt great today and he didn't look like he was stressed or hurting. It made me want to cry. FINALLY, a breakthrough! Below are just a few pics from today! :loveshower::loveshower:


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## Golden Horse

Life with Forrest is never boring for sure! Sounds like some great advances there, crossing everything that things just improve from here.


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## DanteDressageNerd

I am so unbelievably happy for you!! That is SUCH fantastic news!! I'm so glad that things are coming together for you and for Forrest! I hope things just continue to escalate from here!

That's adorable how much Forrest loves and trusts you! I can't believe he heard you and just came back like HELP, this isn't it! Save me Mommy! I'm SO glad things are coming together after all your struggles, may they continue to continue up from here!


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## Rainaisabelle

Congratulations!!! So happy for you


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## Tihannah

Today's forecast was heavy thunderstorms all day starting at 11am, so we were up early and out the door because I just HAD to ride him again. He was even better today and so much fun. It took a lot of lateral work to get him "somewhat" loosened up, but once we did, he was totally on board. Lateral work is going to be our primary focus for awhile. It makes such a huge difference with him. We did mostly trot and pole work, and I just focused on keeping his mind busy by changing directions a lot. 

I put him in a different bit today because without the other martingale, I forgot how strong he can get with his neck, and I really struggled to keep him from running yesterday. I put him in a 2 ring mullen mouth, but put the reins on the snaffle instead of the lower ring. He wasn't crazy about it, so I'll probably put him back in his happy mouth D ring until I can find something better. Tomorrow the weather is supposed to be nice so we are going to work on slowing him down and shortening his strides more. He really felt great today, so I put together a short video just to show the difference and what I was dealing with. The first part is from 2 weeks ago when I attempted to ride him. I gave up after 10 minutes and you'll be able to see why. The rest is from this morning. Please try to overlook my terrible position. It's so hard with him cause you have so much going on and I'm always focusing more on him than myself.


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## Cherrij

Wooow! That ain't the same horse! I can't imagine the struggle with this. I have enough with mine, where he seems to hide all kinds of things wrong with him.. Forrest really is a diamond in the rough..


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## Tihannah

Cherrij said:


> Wooow! That ain't the same horse! I can't imagine the struggle with this. I have enough with mine, where he seems to hide all kinds of things wrong with him.. Forrest really is a diamond in the rough..


That's what made it so hard with him in the beginning and trying to understand what was going on. But now I can finally tell when something is wrong, and it's not just a training or behavioral issue. When he feels good, he's such a willing partner. I just hope to be able to keep him on this track of getting better!


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## Cherrij

Tihannah said:


> That's what made it so hard with him in the beginning and trying to understand what was going on. But now I can finally tell when something is wrong, and it's not just a training or behavioral issue. When he feels good, he's such a willing partner. I just hope to be able to keep him on this track of getting better!


Hope whatever you do from now on works for him, to keep him better! I am sure Forrest is glad you found him and are taking such good care of him!

It's sad to be in my small part of the world where finances and lack of availability of specialists can really slow down the chance to find what exactly it is...


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## Fimargue

YESS!!! Love it so much!

What a nice downward transition from trot and a willing horse! Laterals are never, ever a bad idea. 

So, so pleased! :hug:


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## carshon

What a HUGE difference~! So happy to see a smiling rider and a happy horse. He is spectacular.


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## Golden Horse

Just wondering about the fit on the standing martingale. I haven’t used one for decades but pretty sure that we were told that we should be able to lift the strap up into the gullet









Yours looks a little tight to me.....but maybe times have changed.


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## Tihannah

Golden Horse said:


> Just wondering about the fit on the standing martingale. I haven’t used one for decades but pretty sure that we were told that we should be able to lift the strap up into the gullet
> 
> View attachment 954279
> 
> 
> Yours looks a little tight to me.....but maybe times have changed.


She gave me the largest one she had. On a normal horse I'm sure, but if it were that loose, I may as well not even have one on him. He can raise his head pretty high, I just edited out the parts of the video where he's actually doing that. Trust me, if it was too tight, he would definitely let me know. He would not be as cooperative as he was.


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## Golden Horse

Tihannah said:


> She gave me the largest one she had. On a normal horse I'm sure, but if it were that loose, I may as well not even have one on him. He can raise his head pretty high, I just edited out the parts of the video where he's actually doing that. Trust me, if it was too tight, he would definitely let me know. He would not be as cooperative as he was.


Great, glad it's working out, just worried for your safety is all..


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## Tazzie

SOOO glad to hear he's doing so much better!!! YAY!!!

I bet it was the combo of the Osphos (am I saying it right? too tired to check lol) and the acupuncture  I know we had great success with the acupuncture on Izzie 

Love the video! And the new bonnet! He looks dashing in it!


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## Tihannah

Tazzie said:


> SOOO glad to hear he's doing so much better!!! YAY!!!
> 
> I bet it was the combo of the Osphos (am I saying it right? too tired to check lol) and the acupuncture  I know we had great success with the acupuncture on Izzie
> 
> Love the video! And the new bonnet! He looks dashing in it!



Thanks, Katie! I really think it is a combo of the two, and seeing that the Osphos isn't even fully kicked in yet, I can only see him getting better.  And I plan to have him scheduled at least 2-3 more acupuncture sessions. I also want to say a big THANK YOU to @knightrider and @carshon for recommending it, cause I had never even heard of it until you guys said something!

He was, AGAIN, even better last night! It started off bad, because I'm an idiot sometimes and instead of going with what I KNOW works, I try to switch things up and changed his bit to the beval again. I don't know how many times he has to tell me he hates that **** bit and any type of gag whatsoever! He would have none of it, so after 10 minutes of non-negotiation, I took him back to the barn and put him back in the french link baucher. He was instantly cooperative again. Note to self - listen to your **** horse! lol.

After that we fought a bit about the lateral work and softening and bending. Despite feeling better, he always resorts to his defense mechanism of extending and locking his neck to try and prevent whatever you are asking him to do with his body. So I just kept him moving - bending, counterbending, ugly leg yields (lol), trot poles, circles, figure 8's, etc. And as we worked, I gradually shortened my reins, and basically said, this is where my hands are going to be and they'll be soft as long as you're soft. It took a good 20-25 min for it to finally click with him, and then by golly, I had him! He finally understood and because I had him on a shorter rein, he couldn't throw his neck around and strong arm me like he has the tendency to do, but I made sure to keep my hands soft, but with a steady contact. And FINALLY, finally we were riding like normal people! Since I focused on controlling his shoulders to prevent him throwing his head and neck around, he'd try to lean, and then I'd just leg him on and say, "Nope. You have to carry your own head," and he responded really well.

For the first time, he finally softened in his neck, and then I really had him through the body. And it was like he finally understood what I have been trying to ask him to do all this time. Although he was never fully on the bit and sometimes above the vertical, he allowed me to keep a steady contact and remain soft. Normally, he will only soften in his neck if I completely release the contact, and then the minute I half-halt or apply contact, his head pops up and he's resisting. But last night, he finally accepted it, and I could not have been happier. I SO wish I'd had someone there to video.

After work I'm doing a lesson with Helen. I want her to help me refine our lateral work and she's going to set up an exercise grid in the jump arena to work him through. He's getting better every day and I'm really excited to keep building on it. Hopefully, we can get some video tonight if all goes well! ;-)


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## DanteDressageNerd

That is WONDERFUL news Tina!! I'm so glad it's finally starting to click! It's such a long project retraining a horse with not only pain issues but YEARS of evasive technique from a variety of disciplines and people. It takes so much time and patience to correct, so glad you two are coming through and growing together! So glad this is coming together! Your hard work is paying off


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## lostastirrup

Just got back to HF after a long Hiatus, I remember when you had the palomino draft paint mare, and I have to say its amazing to see where you're at and what a gem of a horse you've got. He looks like one in a million.


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## Tihannah

lostastirrup said:


> Just got back to HF after a long Hiatus, I remember when you had the palomino draft paint mare, and I have to say its amazing to see where you're at and what a gem of a horse you've got. He looks like one in a million.


Welcome back!! Where have you been??? Lol. I didn't think anyone remembered my days with Sidney! Lol. Good to see you back on the forum!

Soooo HUGE epiphany tonight! Okay, probably not huge, but definitely figuring this crazy horse out. Lol.

My lesson with Helen on Wednesday did NOT go well at all.
1. I picked a bad day. I'd ridden him the prior 3 days and I could tell he was tired when I got him from the pasture.
2. I had to rush to the barn after work and hurry and get him tacked up because Helen had another lesson after me. We didn't do any of our stretches, just tacked up and rode. (BAD IDEA)
3. It was feeding time and Forrest was sure I was bringing him in to eat.

From the start of the lesson, he was resistant and difficult. Helen tried to talk me through some lateral work, but he was having none of it. I started to get frustrated because I desperately wanted Helen to see the same ride I'd had the previous 3 days, and I tried to force him to relax and go with the flow. No such deal. And she said to me repeatedly, "Be as soft as you possibly can. I know he's being difficult, but I want you to barely touch the reins. Let the martingale do its job and just keep trying to move his body." 

But I was so distracted by his resistance that I couldn't let go and just kept fighting with him, hoping he would eventually give in. It just continued to get worse. Forrest doesn't back down from a fight. Ever. And even after we ended the lesson, I tried to just hack him around on a long rein, but the damage was done and he wouldn't relax, and just kept trying to run back to the barn. It was not a good ride and I went home frustrated and feeling defeated about him again.

I gave him off yesterday and showed up at the barn tonight determined to turn things back around. I took my time tacking him up and doing our stretches and he'd already had his dinner. When I got in the saddle, I left the reins totally slack and held them as light as I could. He was still tense and anticipating me picking up the reins. I talked to him and pat him as I rode and only gently guided him when I needed to, but focused on using just my seat and legs as much as possible. I took him out to the jump arena.

It took about 10 min before he started to relax and then we picked up the trot. I picked up a little slack in the reins, but kept my hands super soft. And then we just rode. Just like I'd done before. We changed directions a lot, did some trot poles, even went over several cross rails. And he continued to soften more and more. And the more he softened, the more I was able to pick up my reins and add just a little more contact. And he got better and better. So I didn't push it. Without any warning, I turned and trotted him right back to the barn, patting and praising him the whole way.

And that's when I had the epiphany. I'm not just dealing with soundness issues with Forrest. I'm also dealing with trust issues. It won't matter if I ever get him totally sound, if I can't win his trust. The way he's learned to use his body, head, and neck to evade heavy hands is the reason he has all these issues. So if I don't break through this wall in his mind, I'll never succeed in getting him stronger and making him into my dream dressage horse.

But now, I truly understand. I saw it in his eyes tonight, the stress and anticipation, and I won him over. And now I know what I have to do. I have to convince him that he has nothing to worry about anymore. I'm a woman on a mission! I'm giving him off again tomorrow and then Saturday, we will try it again.


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## NavigatorsMom

I LOVE reading your updates on Forrest. It is clear how much you care about him and want him to not only go nicely but also to be a happy horse! I'm sure the frustration we all feel when reading your setbacks is nothing compared to the frustration you feel, but the highs much be so high for you too because you really know how much time and effort has gone into producing those good times.  I know I've said it before but Forrest is *so* lucky that you found him, when there are just so many people who would have given up by now.


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## carshon

I also love reading your journal. I feel so much of our relationship with our horses is trust. And we as riders have to learn to not "Force" it. I was having my own self doubt recently about Tillie. in 2016 I lost 2 riding horses and got her out of necessity. I rode her all last year and she did well but I never felt connected. Reading your journal as well as @Acadianartists journal has really made me pause and "think" about what I am doing. And just last night while grooming Tillie she walked up to me and just stood there with her head near my ear and just breathed with me. It was glorious! I am so excited for my riding to start. And I want you to know that your journal has given me insight and resources for working on my own relationship with my horse.


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## Tihannah

@NavigatorsMom and @carshon - Thank you! It's even more rewarding to hear that! I think this journey with our horses is hard for everyone. There's always a side to me that just wants to throw in the towel and wishes I had $40,000 to go out and buy some amazing schoolmaster! Lol. But I know that will never happen. The other side of me loves this big lug SOOO much and just wants to see him become the horse I know he can be.

Every day with Forrest is a challenge, but every time I make a breakthrough I feel such a renewed sense of hope. I was talking with my other trainer about him last night and she said that she can't believe someone ruined such a nice horse, BUT that if they hadn't ruined him, he definitely would be mine. Lol. 

I've only had him since last July, but this horse has taught me so much already. He is making me a better rider and a better owner, so for that I have to be grateful.


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## Tihannah

The past 3 rides have been amazing!!! I'm so giddy right now I can't even take it!! Lol.

Rode Saturday and just focused on keeping super soft hands. Didn't ask for much, just focused on trying to keep him soft. Mostly trot and pole work. Sunday, same thing, except I asked for more bend and lateral work and shortened my reins a bit more. He was great both days.

Tonight we started in the dressage arena and just focused on lateral work at the walk. I wanted to focus on moving him on and off the rails and felt it would be easier than out in the wide open. Once I felt like he was soft and moving well off my leg, I took him out to the jump arena. Helen was out there with a lesson and I simply had to get her to witness this. We stayed at the walk for quite a bit and I gradually shortened my reins as he became more and more relaxed. When I felt like I totally had him, I asked for the trot. Helen was so engrossed with her student that we probably did 3 laps before she looked up and said, "Tina!! OMG! He looks amazing!!"

It's taken me 8 months to figure him out, but I've finally done it!! When I say he needs a SUPER soft hand, I mean like no more than 2oz in each hand. And it's actually fascinating to me because the softer my hand, the more effective it is! My half halts are nothing more than the softest nudge and he softens more. When he would try to get crooked in his neck and kink it to the right, I'd use my left leg and just a slight tug on my outside rein and then he'd instantly go straight and soft again. And here's the thing, as long as I kept my hands light, he wouldn't push against them to extend his neck. He would test the boundary of my rein length and come right back to the soft area. He actually respected the boundary instead of fighting against it. And because I had him soft, I was able to push him up into the contact and shorten my reins - probably more than I've ever shortened them! He looked and felt like a normal horse. 

Our rides have always been 15-20 minutes of arguing and then 15-20 minutes of decent riding on a GOOD day. Now, it's good from the start. But because he's actually working correctly, our rides are only about 25 minutes. After 25 minutes, he lets me know he's getting tired or it's getting too hard, so I make sure to end it on a good note. I know he's getting tired cause he'll start leaning into my hands or trying to run in the trot. I think it's important that I don't push him. He's doing so well and I think he'll gradually be able to go longer. But for now, I'm ecstatic!


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## Tazzie

I'm so excited he's doing so well!! YAY Tina!!!


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## knightrider

I'm ecstatic for you! You've come so far with him, and done so well!


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## PoptartShop

YAY!!!! So happy to read about how well Forrest is doing! I love it! Glad the acupuncture helped too. It sounds like everything is going well. 
Extremely happy for you!!! Yay!!! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DanteDressageNerd

Congratulations Tina!! That is WONDERFUL news!! I'm so happy for you both!! That is SUPER exciting, especially after all you two have been through together!! SUPER news!!


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## Tihannah

I'm really hoping to get some video tonight. If not, definitely Saturday! 

Been discussing some of our training issues with @DanteDressageNerd.

Our rides have all been fantastic and we just continue to build upon them. He's getting more and more comfortable with working in a proper frame and staying soft and I am learning how to bring him back, yet push him up into the bridle more. It's pretty exciting because I feel like we're having real schooling sessions now.

I've been teaching him how to properly use himself, especially in turns. His default is to throw his shoulder out and overbend in the neck through the turns. I've been teaching him to keep his neck and shoulders straight and to turn by using his body, bending through the rib cage, and stepping under himself. He's getting better and better. 

I was telling Cassie how much work it is to maintain a gait with him. I've never done so much core work in my life! lol. I'm constantly having to bring him back and make him maintain a reasonable pace, but in order to stay out of his mouth, I really have to use my core and its SO hard! He's so big and strong and when we're trotting, he just kinda gets in the zone and wants to plow forward without really listening to your seat cues to come back. But the only way you can really put him together is to make him slow down and shorten his stride.

Tonight I really want to work on transitions with him, but right now we're in a tough spot with that. He's not as responsive as I'd like with transitions cues, so I'm trying to figure out ways to improve that. He's fine between trot to canter and canter to trot, but walk to trot and trot to walk, it's A LOT of work and I don't really understand why yet. He's doing so well right now that I could see us doing a couple schooling shows at training level by the end of the year, but not until I can get him more responsive to transition cues. We'd fail miserably just on trotting up center line and halting at X, and then having to immediately pick up the trot again. I have not yet been able to get him to go from a halt straight into a trot. I can barely get him to halt for more than 2 seconds! Lol.

And lastly, running back to the barn. Sheesh! What a silly problem to have. But yea, when I try to change locations in the middle of our ride, he thinks we're done and wants to rush back to the barn. He totally falls out of work mode, stops listening, and just becomes difficult to handle. Last night we were in the jump arena, but after 10 minutes or so, my trainer came in with a lesson. I didn't want to be in their way, so I took him to the dressage arena. He thought we were done and tried rushing back to the barn. Once I turned him into the dressage arena, he became disobedient and didn't want to trot. Once I got him to trot, he threw his head up and started racing around the arena like a crazy person, just not listening AT ALL. I fought the urge to want to take control of his head and just started turning him in small circles and doing figure 8's up and down the arena until I could gain control with my seat again. It took about 10 minutes until he finally realized that being a big snot wasn't going to help him, and he finally settled down and started listening again. We did more trot work and little bit of canter in which both, he gave me a soft lovely frame. I was satisfied, patted him and hopped off right then and there. I'm no longer going to ride him back to the barn. I simply can't let him decide when the rides are done. He will know the rides are done when I hop off instead. So now, no matter where we are, that's where I will end the ride.

So yea, these are our current dilemmas, though I'm not complaining at all. It feels amazing to actually be working on real things with him and not lameness issues or trying to get his head lower than mine! lol. My soul feels totally renewed and each ride leaves me beaming and giddy.


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## Tazzie

It makes my heart happy reading about your success with him! I knew you'd break through one day, and it sure seems that moment is finally here!!

And I agree with hopping off where you finish. Much like some horses would go into the center of the ring and halt to say they were done. Never a bad idea to change up where you hop off!

I do hope you got some video too! And the transitions will come. It's something everyone is always working on


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## Tihannah

Thanks @Tazzie ! It's really fun now trying to figure out ways to work through his quirks. We improved on walk to trot last night. I kept asking him with leg and verbal and he flat out ignored me. Would even try to slow his walk or halt, instead of trotting. So I used the whip and annoyingly - tap, tap, tap, tap behind my leg until her trotted. I only had to do it twice. The second time he got mad and gave me a small buck, which he never does, but I stood my ground and went right back tapping so he moved into trot. After that, there was no more hesitation when I brought him to walk and then asked for trot again. It was just a total attitude thing. Lol. 

However, I didn't do as well with the trot to walk. It's still taking seat, core, lots of thigh and WHOA to bring him back, and in nothing less than 10 strides. I just can't come up with a better approach for this without pulling on his mouth, which I hate to do and don't want to do. The other thing is that getting him to slow and halt has obviously been a long time problem with him. Whoever rode him before would make him halt and then one rein bring his nose back to touch their leg on each side. It didn't teach him anything except that when you ask him to halt for more than 2 seconds, he thinks he's supposed to reach around and touch your leg on each side. Lol. It's so annoying! So yea, could use some tips on how to break that bad habit as well!


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## Tazzie

Yikes! Well, the only way transitions get better is to do hundreds of them during a ride. Maybe work on really collecting up the trot before asking? Even if he goes straight to halt. Just start getting the point across. Really focus on closing your seat when asking. I know it helps Izzie when she's being bull headed to make the closing of my seat rather loud. I don't have to do it often, but enough to be like "hey! I'm talking to you here!"

I have no ideas for the bad habit though :/ that's a new one to me!


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## carshon

We have a mare that was "Clinton Anderson'd" to death and does the reaching around thing too. Whenever you would raise your voice too get after her or try to get her to stand too long and even lifter your hand slightly to gather your reins she would swing her head to the side and touch your boot. We got around this by keeping the "bridge" there at all times and really working on removing all leg cues. To be honest it took her a long time to get over the flexing to the side. And you might as well forget a one rein stop because she will tip herself over at full speed to touch your boot! We trail ride though and do not do arena work so our solution may be different than yours.


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## Tihannah

Tazzie said:


> Yikes! Well, the only way transitions get better is to do hundreds of them during a ride. Maybe work on really collecting up the trot before asking? Even if he goes straight to halt. Just start getting the point across. Really focus on closing your seat when asking. I know it helps Izzie when she's being bull headed to make the closing of my seat rather loud. I don't have to do it often, but enough to be like "hey! I'm talking to you here!"
> 
> I have no ideas for the bad habit though :/ that's a new one to me!


THIS! This is what I'm struggling with. Collecting him up without him running through my hands. I set my ipad up in front of the arena last night and wasn't too pleased with what I saw. He's softening in the neck, but his butt was still too far out behind him. I also think he was probably tired, so I'm giving him the next couple days off so we get a good ride on Saturday. But yes, I struggle with trying to collect him up without him just trying to run. Do I just use a little stronger half halts on my outside rein and seat? Maybe I'm being too soft with my half halts?


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## Tihannah

carshon said:


> We have a mare that was "Clinton Anderson'd" to death and does the reaching around thing too. Whenever you would raise your voice too get after her or try to get her to stand too long and even lifter your hand slightly to gather your reins she would swing her head to the side and touch your boot. We got around this by keeping the "bridge" there at all times and really working on removing all leg cues. To be honest it took her a long time to get over the flexing to the side. And you might as well forget a one rein stop because she will tip herself over at full speed to touch your boot! We trail ride though and do not do arena work so our solution may be different than yours.


Well, that makes sense. The girl I bought him from was a Western rider and was probably taught that little trick from someone. And yep, same thing, I've had to do one rein stops with him and he can keep running in small circles with his head completely pulled in. I can just see myself trying to do a halt at "X" at a show and him reaching around to kiss my boot on both sides! :|


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## Tazzie

Tihannah said:


> THIS! This is what I'm struggling with. Collecting him up without him running through my hands. I set my ipad up in front of the arena last night and wasn't too pleased with what I saw. He's softening in the neck, but his butt was still too far out behind him. I also think he was probably tired, so I'm giving him the next couple days off so we get a good ride on Saturday. But yes, I struggle with trying to collect him up without him just trying to run. Do I just use a little stronger half halts on my outside rein and seat? Maybe I'm being too soft with my half halts?


My first few half halts are always my loudest to her. Basically, my half halt is literally that: nearly halting. As the ride goes on I ask softer and softer. I ONLY do this because I know my horse, and know I can't just start out quiet. That'd be ideal, but she's bullheaded, so...

I also always think of how my original trainer taught me to halt. Half halt, sit up straight (aka, change position slightly), stop your seat (don't follow the motion), close the seat, close your hands, and typically by then they've stopped. Her last resort was pull, but it never got that far.

You have also worked quite a few days in a row, and this is hard for him. So I wouldn't be surprised if he was tired and cheating a bit.

If I think of something else helpful, I'll pass it along. Brain is just a bit dead currently :lol:


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## egrogan

Fizz is nowhere as educated as Forrest is (and I'm not the rider you are :wink but that trot-walk downward transition is really hard for her too. I sort of smiled when you said it happens for you in no less than 10 strides. I'll be riding along and really preparing for the transition, have my spot picked and think, we _will _transition there, and then I just sigh as we go past that spot still trotting. She isn't fighting me, and I agree with you I don't want to go all handsy on her mouth, but it does need to improve. I know she likes to be moving out, and she's the kind of horse that will go up a gait the second you think about it with barely any aids. It's the coming back down that she's less interested in. 

I love hearing what you're working on and thinking about how it might apply to me as well.


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## DanteDressageNerd

Tihannah said:


> THIS! This is what I'm struggling with. Collecting him up without him running through my hands. I set my ipad up in front of the arena last night and wasn't too pleased with what I saw. He's softening in the neck, but his butt was still too far out behind him. I also think he was probably tired, so I'm giving him the next couple days off so we get a good ride on Saturday. But yes, I struggle with trying to collect him up without him just trying to run. Do I just use a little stronger half halts on my outside rein and seat? Maybe I'm being too soft with my half halts?


Your welcome Tina! I hope it was helpful, I'm glad to be of use to you 

With the half halting, some of it is in your posture and mental expectation.

I know I wrote this yesterday but I think Forrest is SUPER sensitive to mental energy and expectation. I think he responds strongly to the images you project in your which will project in your body. I think he's very protective and defensive from bad mental energy he's experienced and clueless people. 

I think when you half halt, as Katie said the holding the core and seat still, closing the fingers, pulling the elbows into the ribs and holding the "stop" aid for a moment then releasing to help him understand that aid. You may have to pull back slightly to help him understand that you're asking him to slow down and if he runs through, full transition down without getting stronger. You can repeat but not get stronger. And one rein stop sounds counterproductive with him (I've had to do this with Wonder several times and I have to be extreme or he'll flat out grab the bit and pull me out of the saddle). I would prioritize his tempo and rhythm before anything else and really pay attention that you don't get conned into speeding up tempo as he wants. Keep your post slow, sit an extra second in the down phase before your rise. And keep him slow, almost to a jog trot and don't let him forward until he listens and stays with you. It's not about how pretty or big he moves but him just listening to your seat and you. Sit if you have to! Ask for the smallest trot he can physically maintain and that may be the trot you have for a few rides or when he goes to speed up start doing some serpentines on 12m circles and just change direction to signal, hey don't speed. Many small shallow loops, moving the shoulders in and out, or guiding him off the rail for 2 strides, guide back on 2 strides and off 2 strides and on. 

With Wonder we have to sometimes do 3 steps shoulder in, 3 steps haunches in, some straight then leg yield to keep him to soften and in balance. It's such a process, training requires a great deal of creativity and innovation. Also yoga is very helpful


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## lostastirrup

@Tihannah

I've been all busy with school and on and off not having a working computer. Still have my pony though and he makes me happy.

Loving you guy's progress, one heck of a success story in the making. You guys should definitely show. At training level you can make the transition at X through walk to stop, so i wouldnt let that deter you. Showing is such a great motivator and so good for goal making and the horse's experience.


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## Tihannah

Gave Forrest off on Thursday and planned to give him off Friday as well, and then around 8pm, I got a text from the BO that our senior trainer was coming Friday and Saturday for lessons. My lesson wasn't till 6:45p on Friday, so I figured that would be okay and give him almost 2 full days off. She only comes a few times a year and I simply ADORE her. She was one of the first people to see the issue with Forrest and his hind end and she was the first one to tell me we could fix him. She just loves him despite all his quirks and sees so much potential in him.

Our Friday lesson was fantastic and we focused on a lot on just controlling his stride. I decided to put him back in the German Martingale. I hadn't ridden him in it since before he was off, and even though he has issues about his mouth and the contact, after watching old videos, I just felt like it was a more effective tool for him. I was right. He dd so much better in it that the standing, which he has already manged to stretch AND stretch the latch it connected to on his noseband as well. He's that strong in his neck! Anyhow, so we worked on his gait, and she told me that even though I needed to be soft, I HAD to get him used to a steady contact. Every time I would half-halt him, he'd jerk his head up in defiance. She said my hands were just a bit too light. But she also wanted me to focus most of my aids through my seat and legs. I love working him with our senior trainer SO MUCH! She just totally gets him and understands how to work with him. She's very patient and kind and,"That's okay, we've just got to give him time to figure it out." She sees his 101 evasion techniques and just talks me through them without trying to force anything. And she's big on not trying to do too much - one thing at a time, she says.  

Saturday our lesson was even better and since we were the last ride, she spent extra time with us. She showed me how to get him more consistent going right and saw how he likes to bend his neck to the inside in all the turns. She had me focus on keeping him straight with my outside rein and keeping that consistent contact. In the trot, we worked on shortening his stride, then opening it back up again, but trying to maintain the gait. She told me not to worry about his head too much as long as he was being good and not trying to run or snatch the reins, and that he was just trying to find his balance in this new way of going. He felt SO good under saddle! In left lead work, he's stiffer and weaker on that side, and because of it, he doesn't want to take contact on the outside rein. She told me not to try and force him into my outside rein. All she wanted me to do was keep a steady contact on the outside and leave the rest alone. He would toss his head, counterbend, whatever, to try and avoid the outside rein going left. So she told me to give him time to relax and accept it, and then once he did, we would ask for a little bend. It was amazing. Although nothing was consistent, it was easily some of our best work yet. Both days I felt like we were both learning so much and establishing a real understanding. And he made such a huge improvement from Friday to Saturday. Our senior trainer loved it as much as I did and said we were so much fun to work with and that she thought I'd done such a great job with him since the last time we saw her. 

Below are a few clips from our lesson. I didn't edit or add music or anything. It was A LOT of work and so much going on that I wanted to be able to show that and I was so proud of my boy! My legs were like jello afterwards! Lol.

P.S. The sand was really deep on the side of the arena closest to the camera, so you can see where we stumble a bit on that side each time.


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## DanteDressageNerd

He looks great Tina! I'm so happy you found such a good fit for working through Forrest's quirks and evasion techniques. It's always a process to untrain what has already been installed. I'm glad she's so helpful and a good fit for you two!


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## lostastirrup

That is gonna be a killer canter someday. 

Im trying to remember where I read it- but it was a quote out of an old classical dressage book that went something like "Trot is for the rider- canter is where the horse is built" ... I think it was some french guy with a mustache. And I think it really shows in Forrest. You can see his brain and his body sorting things out the more you canter. He's trying so hard.


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## Tihannah

lostastirrup said:


> That is gonna be a killer canter someday.
> 
> Im trying to remember where I read it- but it was a quote out of an old classical dressage book that went something like "Trot is for the rider- canter is where the horse is built" ... I think it was some french guy with a mustache. And I think it really shows in Forrest. You can see his brain and his body sorting things out the more you canter. He's trying so hard.


He really is and we figured out that he's just more comfortable in the canter for some reason, so when he got really resistant and tense in the trot, we would ask for the canter, and it would help him relax a bit. You really have to kind of take over his mind when you ride him or he becomes too focused on his many evasion techniques. We worked on different things in each part of the lesson just trying to help him relax and accept what we were asking. I really wish I could work with this trainer more often. She just found really great ways to break through his barrier of resistance. I've also got to work on my own vices - my position, gripping with the knees, and steady contact, but I think we will come together eventually. It's just so nice to have him feeling better and doing so well.


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## Tihannah

We have been on a consistent roll lately, and I am very pleased with our progress. Each ride is another step in learning for both of us. I'm still trying to find that bit that makes him truly happy and have been searching bits for sensitive, but strong horses. The strong part, I'm not so worried about. I've really been trying to develop my core with him and have gotten a lot better about controlling him with my seat. And although we have made good strides, I don't think I'll ever get him on board until I find a bit he's truly comfortable in. Right now I'm looking at a Nathe Loose Ring Snaffle. I've seen a lot of good reviews across multiple forums and its supposed to be the "go to" bit for sensitive horses. 

Today I put him in a french link snaffle (not the baucher). It was shaped slightly different than the baucher, and omg, he hated it. It took me SOOO long to get him to just relax and somewhat accept it. I didn't understand what was happening at first because he was being so difficult and I thought maybe he was out in his poll again or something. But I have been very consistent about do all his stretches and exercises and he's been doing really well with them. After about 20 minutes of just being difficult, I kept him at the walk and just worked on bending exercises trying to occupy his mind. We did this for about 10-15 minutes and then I decided to work on transitions. We've just recently started working on transitions and trying to get him to be more responsive to the aids when I ask. He's always resistant when I ask for the trot or the halt. I really have to push him into the trot and struggle to get him to halt without asking through 5-6 strides.

He responds so well to praise. I've noticed recently that when I get frustrated and tense during our rides, he just gets more tense and hard to work with. But if I ignore his bad behaviors (being rude, yanking, evasion) and mark the good with praise, he really connects with that and tried hard to please. We'd worked on halt in our previous ride, so it was much easier this time around. After the second or third attempt, he gave me the halt instantly and I gave him big pats. It's also helping us work through the "touching his nose to my boots" thing. He only tried it once today, so I was pleased. When asking for the trot, just to be clear, I made sure not to ask for anything else - contact or frame - just trot please. And when he tried to refuse, I'd lightly tap, tap, tap behind my leg and reinforce with a verbal "Trot!" until he gave me what I wanted. And as soon as he started trotting, I praised him. I'd bring him back to walk, then halt, after only a few strides, then back to walk and trot again. After the 3rd or 4th attempt, it really clicked and then I only needed leg to ask for the trot. I backed everything up with lots of praise, and it made a world of difference. 

If there's anything Forrest has taught me, it's that ask, tell, DEMAND does not work with him. In fact, it shuts him down. It's more like ask, tell, ask, tell, and PRAISE when he figures it out. Because, really, he's just confused, and when you get frustrated with him and start DEMANDING, he just gets frazzled and harder to communicate with. Praise he understands, and if he is pleasing you, then he is happy. It's when he feels the negative vibes coming from you that things tend to go south. So here's the phenomena. The better he got with the transitions, the quieter he got about the bit. It was like he was so pleased with himself about getting it right, that he totally forgot about the fight over the bit. We did repetitive walk, trot, halts and he was really paying attention and listening and then I asked for the canter and it was such a smooth and easy transition. When I brought him back down to trot, he was quiet and reaching down. It was amazing.

So this is what's brought me back to the whole bit ordeal. I'm determined to find something he's happy and comfortable with. I've tried a plethora of bits on him and so far, nothing has been a real winner. The work I've been doing with him to get him more in tune to my seat will help me transition him into something super soft. I would love to not have to work so hard to bring his mind back to me and not the bit.


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## ClearDonkey

Tihannah said:


> We have been on a consistent roll lately, and I am very pleased with our progress. Each ride is another step in learning for both of us. I'm still trying to find that bit that makes him truly happy and have been searching bits for sensitive, but strong horses. The strong part, I'm not so worried about. I've really been trying to develop my core with him and have gotten a lot better about controlling him with my seat. And although we have made good strides, I don't think I'll ever get him on board until I find a bit he's truly comfortable in. Right now I'm looking at a Nathe Loose Ring Snaffle. I've seen a lot of good reviews across multiple forums and its supposed to be the "go to" bit for sensitive horses.


I have been out of the competitive dressage world for quite a while now, so I am not 100% on all of the rules on bits, but could you use a latex bit tape to soften up the bit that much more? My friend had a badly mistreated saddleseat Arabian, that sounds quite a lot like Forrest. You could not demand anything out of this horse, because he would quite literally blow up, and you wouldn't get a single good step out of him for the rest of the ride. He had an incredibly sensitive mouth, but my goodness, my arms can still feel how strong he would pull, and last time I rode him was probably four years ago. I am pretty sure the last bit she had him in was either a mullen mouth or single break bradoon, that was covered in latex bit tape. 

Also, Elisa Wallace has a video out on all of the bridles that she uses on her OTTB's and Mustangs, and she also highly recommends latex bit tape. I am actually about to order some myself for my strong, soft mouthed horse. Hope this helps!


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## Tihannah

ClearDonkey said:


> I have been out of the competitive dressage world for quite a while now, so I am not 100% on all of the rules on bits, but could you use a latex bit tape to soften up the bit that much more? My friend had a badly mistreated saddleseat Arabian, that sounds quite a lot like Forrest. You could not demand anything out of this horse, because he would quite literally blow up, and you wouldn't get a single good step out of him for the rest of the ride. He had an incredibly sensitive mouth, but my goodness, my arms can still feel how strong he would pull, and last time I rode him was probably four years ago. I am pretty sure the last bit she had him in was either a mullen mouth or single break bradoon, that was covered in latex bit tape.
> 
> Also, Elisa Wallace has a video out on all of the bridles that she uses on her OTTB's and Mustangs, and she also highly recommends latex bit tape. I am actually about to order some myself for my strong, soft mouthed horse. Hope this helps!


Thank you. Just today I'd come across something about the latex bit tape. I actually ordered the Nathe bit yesterday from Smartpak and it should be here Wednesday. Although, I'm not sure I'll be able to try it when it gets here.

Sigh... I feel horrible. Stupid actually, because today I think I discovered the real source to Forrest's issues. Our past couple rides have been rough and I'd just been focusing on a lot of lateral work and bending, but each ride, it's taken longer and longer for him to relax and give. Today was even worse and he was VERY much like the "before" in one of the other videos I posted about his improvement. And I've mentioned this earlier in my journal where at times riding him and trying to give a half halt? And his reaction like someone had just slapped him in the face? Today was like that. And no matter what I did, he simply would not stop head tossing an simply fighting any kind of rein contact. And he was back in the baucher. But the weird part I noticed as we rode is that he still did his best to try and listen to my seat. I mean responded REALLY well. Walk, halt, trot, even turns on the forehand and really stepping under and moving his hind over all the while still fussing like crazy in front. So after a short ride, I gave up and took him back to untack and head to the wash rack. 

In my mind I was replaying our ride and his reactions to everything, and it just didn't make sense. I dropped the hose, and made him kinda open his mouth and started examining him. And that's when I saw it... he had a really deep gash way back deep in the corner inside of his mouth that was clearly caused by the bit(s). It was hard to see and I had to lift folds of his lips to find it, but it explained everything. You see, when I started riding him again, I put him in the standing martingale and made sure to barely touch his mouth. He was quiet, but he was also very stretched out and getting almost no contact from me. When I put him back in the german martingale, the contact was either coming from the martingale or my hands. And each time we rode, the bits were likely rubbing more and more causing the cut to get deeper and deeper until we got to now, where he's incredibly difficult to ride again.

And I feel so stupid and like a horrible owner because I have been checking everything on him except the most obvious place and how the bits have been affecting him. I, of course, had his teeth checked and floated, but the vet said they were great, but he was looking at his teeth and not really his mouth or lips. Forrest has a really big fat tongue and super fleshy lips and without a doubt, all the bits I've tried have been causing him pain, and he's so conditioned to it that he's developed all these evasion techniques of how to get around the contact. It explains why he will grab the bit and lock his neck so you can't apply pressure. Why everyone that sees him go says he doesn't look lame or off, but his head and neck are still tossing around like crazy. Why even when he wants to stretch down, he will try and then pop right back up. How could I be so blind?? He was trying to tell me all along. Probably been trying to tell people for years and no one would listen. :-(

Does he have weakness in his hind? Yes. Lots of horses do right? But they don't resist contact like he does and at the same time try to be so obedient and kind. So he won't be going in a bit until his mouth heals, but I think the Nathe bit will be really good for him. It's supposed to be super soft and mild and is a bendable rubber, so I'm hoping it won't be able to rub or cut into his mouth like the metal bits. I have a couple happy mouths, but they are hard plastic and I don't want to go there either. So far now, I'm going to just treat his mouth, let him heal, and then start over again with this gentler bit and hope we can move forward without causing him anymore pain. :-(


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## carshon

@Tihannah if you were a bad owner you would have stopped looking for reasons his behavior changed and you would have forced him into something more uncomfortable. You are an EXCELLENT, THOUGHTFUL and COMPASSIONATE owner - this horse could not be in better hands! Fingers crossed the new bit helps.


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## knightrider

Ditto to everything @carshon says. I have loved following your journey. You are such a good caring conscientious rider.

Just a suggestion that someone gave to me many years ago. I had a lovely appaloosa mare who fussed and worried with her head. Someone suggested to me to ride her in a sock. You take a man's dress sock and twist it until it is round, then sew it so it keeps that round shape. It worked great on my mare. She loved her "sock". Each sock lasted about 6 months and I rode her almost daily. I believe I rode her in a sock for about 2 years, then was able to switch her into a real bit. I used a snaffle for trail riding and a kimberwicke for jousting. We did a theatrical joust show. She was a fairly strong moving horse, but I had no trouble controlling her in the sock. Just a thought.


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## DanteDressageNerd

Don't get mad at yourself, I keep shooting myself for not noticing Wonder's stifle problem and maybe making it worse. Like I should have known but you know we have to learn. We can't help what we didn't know, it's part of the process of learning. And sometimes guilt is a part of that process but you shouldn't feel guilty. You did the best you could with what you knew! I'd let him mouth heal and maybe he needs that soft rubber bit that's hopefully thin, if they're too thick they'll rub his mouth and bars. Sometimes you just don't know until you know better, you're a very thoughtful, loving and compassionate person DO NOT forget that. You've done an AMAZING job with Forrest who has had YEARS of bad riding and bad training, you've come so far with him and done SO SO much to give him love and understanding. Don't be so hard on your self. Carshon is right. You are more than you believe!


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## Golden Horse

Have you tried him with no bit? Sorry I can't remember, might be worth a gamble, especially while his mouth heals up. I lover Fergie in her EZ Harmony Thinline EZ Harmony Bitless Noseband Bridle Converter, well indoors anyway, outside she was a PITA!!!!!


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## Tihannah

Golden Horse said:


> Have you tried him with no bit? Sorry I can't remember, might be worth a gamble, especially while his mouth heals up. I lover Fergie in her EZ Harmony Thinline EZ Harmony Bitless Noseband Bridle Converter, well indoors anyway, outside she was a PITA!!!!!


That looks super neat! I may have to order one! I was also thinking about borrowing a hackamore from friends at the barn. I've tried him in one before but I didn't have much luck since it was before I really knew how to ride him and he could easily get away from me. But we've done a lot of seat work since then and he's been really good, so I may give it another shot.


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## lostastirrup

You might look into leather bits a little down the line once hes healed up. something soft that will mold might suit him well


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## Tazzie

I would NEVER say you are a bad owner. NEVER. A bad horse owner would have seen that cut, and gone "well, he can deal". You are finding a solution.

DO NOT BEAT YOURSELF UP WOMAN!

I just want to give a quick side note on latex wrapping and full leather bits. Neither are currently legal to show in. I know you've debated showing or not, so if you choose not to it won't matter. But that's why I had the struggle of finding a legal bit Izzie liked. She LOVED her latex wrapped bit. And it was legal for my rail classes. But it was not Dressage legal. I just really wanted to point that out just in case you had hopes to show still!

Good luck and keep us posted on how he heals up <3 Love you both!!


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## Tihannah

Well, Forrest got a full week off to heal before I tried the Nathe bit on him and I have to say, he's done the best in it than any bit I've tried thus far. It's super soft and flexible so he's not fighting it, head tossing or overreacting to half halts. Although, he still resists using himself correctly, he doesn't object to the contact anymore, and I've taken full advantage. Our past few rides have been serious schooling sessions and he's shown great strides each day.

The chiro came out last weekend and WOOHOO, we were finally cleared to phase 2 - strengthening! Phase 1 was all about lengthening and bringing back the range of motion in his hips. He's starting to learn that its okay to be soft in the neck and give in his body, although it takes quite a bit of work to get him there in each ride. We've been doing a lot of lateral work and suppling exercises and now we are stepping up the game. We've gotten REALLY good about working through the seat and legs and he's become super responsive to halt-walk-trot transitions. So today, for the first time, we did trot-canter transitions and he did fantastic. 

I've mentioned before, and can't explain why, but canter is his gait of choice. When he gets super resistant or difficult in the trot, I can ask him to canter and then he will soften and go easily. So today, using the trot-canter transitions, I was able to teach him that he needed to maintain that softness from canter to trot. When I say that he is fantastic transitioning between the 2 gaits, I'm not even kidding. He does not hesitate when I ask for the canter, and it's so balanced and controlled, that I can easily change the speed of the canter with my seat. And I mean REALLY bring it back to a super slow canter and then back up to fast canter. It feels incredible and I can't get enough! Lol. So today I really took advantage of that in transitioning him to trot and asking him to hold the frame. And we'd get 5 or 6 good strides and then we'd start to lose it, so I'd ask for the canter again to make him sit and come from behind. And then when he was soft and round in the canter, I'd bring him back to trot and ask him to hold it, but maintain it by putting him on a spiral. It was easily some of our best work and I was super proud of him. When we got several good repetitions, I asked for the walk then halt and he gave me a nice square halt and didn't even attempt to throw his head up. I jumped off right then and there, gave him huge pats and praise and we walked back to the barn together.

I really think that his balance and ability in the canter is going to help me build the hind end strength he needs to get better in the trot work. He still thinks he's supposed to work front to back and really relies on his front end to do too much of the work, but I'm determined to teach him that his hind end is there for a reason! We have another clinic this weekend with the eventer and I think she'll be surprised when she sees how much work we've done since the last time she was here. I will try to get some good video to share!

P.S.
I have also given up my spurs! We simply don't need them anymore!


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## evilamc

Tihannah said:


> That looks super neat! I may have to order one! I was also thinking about borrowing a hackamore from friends at the barn. I've tried him in one before but I didn't have much luck since it was before I really knew how to ride him and he could easily get away from me. But we've done a lot of seat work since then and he's been really good, so I may give it another shot.


Only concern with a hackamore is if its one with shanks he may hate it? It will apply pressure to his pole and make him toss even more? I like that thinline one, it would be a good place to start, basically just like a side pull rather then something with shanks and leverage.

YAY for hopefully figuring out the issue too! You're NOT a bad mom, you've had multiple people out to look him over and this just kept getting overlooked. At least you've found it now and can figure out how to help him!


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## knightrider

Such good news! You are ON YOUR WAY!!!


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## carshon

What a wonderful post! Congrats on another good ride!


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## lostastirrup

isnt it great when they go forward off your seat?!?! I ditched my spurs with Nicki too awhile back for the same reasons! So glad you guys are hitting your stride and really syncing. its the best feeling


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## Tihannah

Feeling super down again today. :-( Next day's ride was absolute crap and I was exhausted by the end of it.

Most of my barn friends are gone to shows today and posting pics on FB and its really getting to me. We have a schooling show at the barn on the 28th, and since my horse can't ride in it, I'll be working it again and taking a lesson afterwards with judge. I'm not big on shows and competing, but the fact that I can't even go to schooling shows and get through an Intro B test with him is depressing.

Yesterday, the friend that helped me find Forrest was chatting with me for hours on messenger and trying to convince me that I needed to just sell him to a hunter or jumper and move on. She started sending me horse ads making it worse. She basically said that if he's not happy doing dressage, I'll never convince him, especially at his age, and it shouldn't be this hard. She even offered to sell me one of her horses. An 8yr old chestnut TB gelding. The last thing I want is a chestnut TB. Lol. We have 6 chestnut TB's at my barn. But, of course, I started looking again and making myself even more depressed.

And then I started talking to a woman about a horse. 8yr old bay mare Dutch WB/TB cross. The woman is a vet with too many horses and animals and moving to Montana soon. She sent me tons of videos and xrays and said she was VERY negotiable on price and more concerned with finding a good home. The price was really good and I liked the movement on the mare.

I don't want to sell Forrest. I don't want to give up on him. But I don't know if I can fix him - physically or mentally, to be my dressage horse and it really sucks. I wish this wasn't so hard and every ride wasn't so challenging. :-(

Our clinic with the eventer was moved to tomorrow because of bad weather. I didn't go out yesterday, so Forrest will have 2 days off before the clinic. I will ride tomorrow in the clinic, and then at the show I will ride with our senior trainer again and talk to her about it. She understands him more than anyone I've worked with, so I will convey my feelings to her and get her take after our lesson. I'm in serious turmoil right now... :-(


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## Golden Horse

Tihannah said:


> I don't want to sell Forrest. I don't want to give up on him. But I don't know if I can fix him - physically or mentally, to be my dressage horse and it really sucks. I wish this wasn't so hard and every ride wasn't so challenging. :-(


I can really really understand why you don't want to quit with him, the days you have break throughs you feel like a million dollars, then it goes wrong and you feel like you are a million dollars in debt.

You have to look deep into yourself and ask what YOU want. No one will ever say you haven't gone above and beyond with him, you have tried so much. Now ask yourself what HE wants...not every horse likes dressage.

If you want to have a horse that you can work to improve you and them and get consistent improvement, then maybe he isn't the horse for you.


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## Tihannah

Golden Horse said:


> I can really really understand why you don't want to quit with him, the days you have break throughs you feel like a million dollars, then it goes wrong and you feel like you are a million dollars in debt.
> 
> You have to look deep into yourself and ask what YOU want. No one will ever say you haven't gone above and beyond with him, you have tried so much. Now ask yourself what HE wants...not every horse likes dressage.
> 
> If you want to have a horse that you can work to improve you and them and get consistent improvement, then maybe he isn't the horse for you.


That's pretty much what my friend said. And when I go back and look at videos where he's quiet, it's because I have no real contact and he is all stretched out. He's taught me a lot and has really helped me to become a better rider, but I'm starting to doubt we'll ever get to a place where we can actually get in a ring. And neither of us are getting any younger. :-(


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## Golden Horse

A really nice rider at the barn spent all last year trying to decide between two horses, she was showing one for the owner, the other a youngster not long started. She eventually chose the HUGE youngster, and I thought all would be well.

I was shocked to hear they were having trouble, and eventually she traded him for a been there done that horse, she could not take the frustration any more. I got to see the big guy being ridden by the trainer the other day...really made me wish I was younger, fitter, braver, Oh and had some talent...because he is AMAZING. Bloody difficult, was never ever going to be the hunter she wanted, but if a person has the guts and talent to ride a great big, opinionated, forward going jumper...then he is your guy.

G is a great rider, A is a great horse, but they weren't a great match...both will be happier now.

Could be that Forrest would be really happy doing something else...


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## Tihannah

Clinic was pretty much a disaster...

I spent 10-15 min just trying to get him warmed up before our ride, but didn't do a lot of good. We went through multiple exercises, bending, counter-bending, turns on the forehand, spiraling in and out. He fought everything we threw at him. And I didn't tell anyone, but I even gave him some banamine 2 hours before our ride. If he was hurting somewhere, then that should have helped right? Wrong.

At one point the eventer says, "Can I get on him?" I said, "Please!" He wore her out. She was truly baffled. She could get him to shorten his stride, lift his back, step under and over, but at no point would he soften and drop his head. She told me I deserve a dessert every night after riding him. He is THAT much work! He literally cannot go more than 2-3 strides without trying to implement one of his 101 evasion tactics. He's throwing his head and neck around, slowing down, speeding up, going sideways. It literally takes everything you have just to try and keep him between both reins and legs. He softens for a stride or two and then says, "NOPE!" and the head shoots straight up in the air again.

After she rode him she said, "I can't even charge you for this. I don't feel like we accomplished anything! I'm at a loss!" But after she got off, she changed her mind. The next ride was coming in, so she said for me to lunge him over a few small jumps, and then we would try something else.

He absolutely would NOT lunge over the jumps, so I just put side reins on him and lunged him regularly. Then I got back on as she finished up her lesson. In the end, we took the martingale up a notch and she attached the side reins from the bottom of the girth up through the bit. And literally, that's what it took to get him to stop fighting. He couldn't fight me at all in this set up, only himself, so after maybe only 5-8 minutes, he started to soften and give and get steady in the contact. We did walk, trot, canter in both directions and he was actually lifting and using his hind end. And she, like all the other trainers, said she thinks this is totally in his mind. That she could not see or feel a lame step on the ground or in the saddle. He literally thinks he CANNOT do it - be soft and go forward on the bit. But when she rigged him up, he had no choice, and he did it. And once he did it, it was like he realized that it wasn't that bad. It was probably the best left lead canter I've ever gotten out of him. She thinks I need to ride him like this for a week. Then give him a break and see how he does, then put him back in it again if needed. 

She said she can't even imagine what someone did to him to totally screw up him like this, and suggested I call an animal communicator to try and piece him together. She is the 2nd person that's suggested this to me. So I did it. I made an appt for Friday at 10am. What the hell else do I have to lose?

But again, this is my dismay about this horse. I hate that I can't reach him in traditional ways. That he doesn't care how soft you try to be, he's gonna fight it. I hate that he has to be rigged up in all kinds of gadgets just to go like a normal horse. And in my mind, is it even going to make a difference? No matter how long I ride him in all the additional aids, once they come off, he knows they're off and he just reverts back to fighting whatever you're asking him to do.

And yes, there are some days when we have great moments and my hope is renewed. But then I come back the next day and everything is out the window and we are starting over again. It's exhausting. And after the eventer rode him (mind you, this woman has competed at Rolex), I said to her, "I just don't feel like I'm strong enough to work through his 101 evasion tactics!" And she said...."Honey, NO ONE is!" :-(


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## lostastirrup

So sorry it went badly, just think about it though - he's had what 2ish Weeks maybe pain free vs most of his ridden life to contend with painful bit fit. 

It's worth giving it some time and maybe going to some in hand lateral stuff and bitted groundwork to teach him the basics.. cause he hasn't gotten a chance to learn them in a way that doesn't hurt. So he needs a remedial course in yielding to mouth pressure and understanding his relationship to the funny thing in his mouth.


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## Tihannah

lostastirrup said:


> So sorry it went badly, just think about it though - he's had what 2ish Weeks maybe pain free vs most of his ridden life to contend with painful bit fit.
> 
> It's worth giving it some time and maybe going to some in hand lateral stuff and bitted groundwork to teach him the basics.. cause he hasn't gotten a chance to learn them in a way that doesn't hurt. So he needs a remedial course in yielding to mouth pressure and understanding his relationship to the funny thing in his mouth.


The first time the GP clinician was here, he performed an experiment after riding him and getting the same results. While I was in the saddle, he gave him a treat and asked him to soften from the ground. Treat, soften, treat, soften. Then from the ground with me in the saddle he took the reins. Got him to soften in his jaw and neck. Then he ran beside him with me in the saddle and holding the reins. We trotted 3 circles and Forrest never fought his hands on the reins. Stayed nice and round the entire time. The clinician had a treat in his hand as we trotted and that was all Forrest could think about. 

But when we removed the treats and I asked him to do the same thing, he acted like there was a wall there and he simply couldn't break through it without throwing his head up. And it doesn't matter if you try it with a bit or a hackamore. You get the same reaction.

And here's the thing, and I've mentioned this before. He NEVER explodes. Horses usually fall in one of two spectrums. They get ****ed and try to make you eat dirt or they yield. He does neither and it doesn't matter what you throw at him. With him it's, "You said Canter? I'm gonna canter, but I'm gonna do it my way. Trot? Same thing." And everyone that gets on him, gets frustrated because they've never seen anything like it. And no one understands just how bad it is until they actually get on him. This was the 3rd clinic I've done on him with the eventer, but she really had no idea how bad it was until today when she got in the saddle. Because what he does is make it look like the rider is doing it. And if I shared video, REAL video, of what his rides look like, that's what everyone would think. That's what everyone thought when I shared the video of my friend, Helen, riding him. But it doesn't matter if you are a green rider or a professional that trains horses for a living. He will break you and make you question everything you thought you knew about horses...


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## Fimargue

Ok, Tina, I think it's time to whistle the game off. I truly think he is a wonderful horse and bred for dressage, but if his mind is not there and he doesn't like doing dressage, there is really no point, so let him do what he likes the best. I have rehabbed horses that someone with hard hands and who knows what has broken along the way and some could have gone back to the game if the person is willing to also possibly change themselves. And some horses just don't work with some people, but I don't think that's the issue at all with you two. Bottom line being - the horse needs to like doing dressage, or otherwise we will never get anywhere with them.

Like right now I'm in the process, though struggling, of selling my other mare because I'm not sure she can do dressage. Some things she finds easy, but sitting she finds hard (she has a rather flat croup), and I'm really not sure that she would enjoy doing that in a long term (she is very able of giving "I don't want to" though never, ever nasty with it, just evading. I have a person coming to see her tonight to give her a trail riding home. Eventually I would like to breed, but should be only with the best fitting for dressage. So here is the heart and the logical side battling against.


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## DanteDressageNerd

I think I'm with everyone else, having followed the whole story. I think allowing him to be a hunter or jumper would probably make him happy and fighting to turn him into a dressage horse is likely not worth it. It's heartbreaking but you're a wise woman. He's taught you an awful lot and will open a ton of doors for horse potentials you can look at!


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## Cherrij

Oh my.. I am sorry you feel this way. 

But I kinda know the feeling. I haven't invested that much in my horse, and he was never an excellent dressage prospect, but nor am I. However, I have almost given up on dressage and just hope he can be a nice hobby trail horse and maybe do some endurance, driving and small jumping if my courage grows a little. 

Every single time I think we are gonna go forward well, something happens. And not just unknown weird things like with Forrest (just plain out fighting everything) but also health issues.. Now he has a huge chunk missing from his hoof wall and I can't risk riding on roads with stones, in case he hits one too hard, so we are stuck to slow trail rides and some work in the arena for at least a few months... 

And I also think my horse thinks he just cannot do it! even though every single time he does something that is new or harder I reward him and praise him like a mad person. I want him to believe that he can succeed. 

If you are dead set on being a dressage rider, you might need to give up on the idea of doing it with Forrest. If you can afford another horse, that might be a solution. To keep Forrest and keep trying and train with the other horse..


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## knightrider

I haven't "liked" any of your recent posts because I am so sad for you. Sometimes I think about you when I am doing other things and feel sad. You love him so much and tried so hard. Whatever you decide, I hope it is OK for you. I just wish you all the best. Very hard going through this. I wish you didn't have to.


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## Tihannah

knightrider said:


> I haven't "liked" any of your recent posts because I am so sad for you. Sometimes I think about you when I am doing other things and feel sad. You love him so much and tried so hard. Whatever you decide, I hope it is OK for you. I just wish you all the best. Very hard going through this. I wish you didn't have to.


Thank you. I really appreciate that and the understanding from everyone.

I love dressage so much. And it's not that I want to even become great at it, I just want the opportunity to keep learning and have a horse that somewhat enjoys it. Forrest is a saint. He really is. I couldn't ask for a sweeter, kinder, easier horse...on the ground.:|

I've talked to my friend, Helen, about it and she's gonna help me do a jump video with him and I guess we'll see what happens...


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## Tazzie

I'm so sorry you're going through this  I wish I could give you a gigantic hug right now.

I wish you a ton of luck. I know how much you love Forrest, and you've only ever done what was best for him. He is absolutely a saint, and I wish so badly he could enjoy doing what you enjoy doing. I hope he finds the perfect home with someone who understands he doesn't want to do Dressage :sad:


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## MajorSealstheDeal

Hi Tiannah,

I've been following your thread for awhile. A few posts back you mentioned the struggle you were having with Forrest, trying to make him into your dressage horse when maybe that's not what he wants to be.

This really resonated with me because I just went through this experience with a horse that I bred and raised, and love dearly. I too tried to fit him into a job he didn't like for a couple years. Now I'm on the other side of the fence, I finally traded him for a mare that seems to like to do the same things as me.

I've had the pleasure of watching my little walker cut and pen cows like a regular cow pony, and I've gone on a trail ride with him and his new human. It sure was nice to see him walking his little heart out with a woman who was grinning ear to ear, and completely happy with him. I was always trying to pick at him and change him, but she appreciates who he is completely. I'll admit, there were a lot tears shed as I wrestled with the dilemma of trading him.

I don't want to hijack your thread, but I hope you can find a solution that you and Forrest are both content with. I wish you both the best of luck.


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## horseluvr2524

I'm so sorry you are going through this. You're on your second horse and through no fault of your own, it's just not working out.

If you want to truly be competitive and keep advancing, this may be a roadblock you run into more frequently than anyone would like to think. I see horse ads all the time that say "nice horse, just doesn't make it as a jumper/cutter/barrel racer/dressage/whatever", or "rider needs a mount that can compete at higher levels". I think that you are too ambitious and too dedicated to mastering dressage to be happy settling for anything less than continued improvement. And the truth is, most horses "cap out" at a certain point, and you have to find something that can compete where you want to.

It's not wrong. It's just a different way of owning horses than people like me who are "hobby horse owners". Despite practicing dressage on our own, I'd be amazed if my mare did well in even a training level test, lol. There is nothing wrong with being the ambitious type of owner. Owners like that give their horses tons of experience and good training, and send them on to (often permanent) homes where they will be enjoyed as a "hobby horse" and maybe shown at low levels. Of course, Forrest could make an excellent jumper, but only his possible new owner could find this out for themselves.

If you look into buying a different horse, my personal opinion is that you should go for something that has a proven dressage track record. Even if they were just shown successfully at training level, that would be better than an untried project with 'good potential'. If they will accept the bit and move with consistency and rhythm, that is more than half of your previous problems solved right there. I think that you have the ability to take on a younger horse too, and maybe should look for something under ten years old.

Just listen to your heart, whatever you do. If your heart's desire is to continue with dressage and be competitive, then you know what you need to do. If your heart's desire is to keep Forrest, then you will find a way through these roadblocks, even if the answer means not doing dressage.

My best wishes to you. Hugs!


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## Golden Horse

horseluvr2524 said:


> If you look into buying a different horse, my personal opinion is that you should go for something that has a proven dressage track record. Even if they were just shown successfully at training level, that would be better than an untried project with 'good potential'. If they will accept the bit and move with consistency and rhythm, that is more than half of your previous problems solved right there. I think that you have the ability to take on a younger horse too, and maybe should look for something under ten years old.


Don't rule out the oldies....Fergie was 15 when I bought her, and we have battled through a lot of issues, because, well she is Fergie and I have little talent. It has taken 2 1/2 years to get to where we are, and I THINK that @Tihannah would actually enjoy the same sort of journey. She has no major hang ups, just lots of things to unpack, relearn and work on, but it is so rewarding when you keep making forward steps, and they stick. Maybe I'm calling it wrong, but I think she likes a little bit of a challenge!



horseluvr2524 said:


> Just listen to your heart, whatever you do. If your heart's desire is to continue with dressage and be competitive, then you know what you need to do. If your heart's desire is to keep Forrest, then you will find a way through these roadblocks, even if the answer means not doing dressage.


LOL, my heart would not let me sell Gibbs, when it became clear that he wasn't going to thrive doing dressage, so I kept him mainly as a pet, while I rode Fergie.....he is still my heart!


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## horseluvr2524

Golden Horse said:


> LOL, my heart would not let me sell Gibbs, when it became clear that he wasn't going to thrive doing dressage, so I kept him mainly as a pet, while I rode Fergie.....he is still my heart!


That's certainly one way to handle it! :wink: The "lease him"/"keep him" options (and similar ones) had already been suggested so I didn't bother mentioning them.

ETA: as to the other part, she's had two older horses, so I was suggesting the other end of the spectrum.


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## seabiscuit91

I feel so so much for you.

I haven't been on her much but always keep up to date with your journal.
I can't imagine what you're going through, selling a horse you love so much is unthinkable.

But, you have goals, and you deserve to pursue them too.
You seem to have so much commitment, and surrounded by many many great professionals, you should consider a younger project. Something with a trainable mind, which unfortunately can be much harder in the older horses who have been trained certain ways for so many years. 

I'm sure no matter what you decide it'll be the right choice, just something I usually stick to when buying or looking. I don't have a hefty budget so prefer something 4-6 years old with minimal work into them, knowing you're really at the beginning of their career and 'generally' have more to work with.

Good luck with everything.


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## Tihannah

Thank you again all. It's been sitting in the back of my mind for the past couple months, but I couldn't even bring myself to mention it here. It sucks going through 2 horses I loved so much in such a short amount of time and realizing I couldn't build on them or make them better. I felt like I got so lucky with Forrest and that once I showed him the way, he would become a willing partner to learn on. 

Our ride tonight was more of the same. I literally spent 30 minutes just trying to get him to move forward without a fight. It was ridiculous! Then I took him in the dressage arena, put him in a canter, let him work it out, and then we had 10 minutes of a great ride. The weird part is that it's like I can't even communicate with him until he's in the canter cause he's not throwing his head and neck around all crazy. 

I'm not against an older horse if the education is there, but after these two, I'd honestly rather tackle something with a clean slate. I talked about it with the eventer yesterday. We both agreed that taking on a green horse would be easier than trying to undo someone else's trainwreck. And I feel like I have enough support at my barn to help me work through the quirks of a "normal" horse. lol. My budget to find another horse is also measly and will put me in either the "green" or "senior" bracket as far as dressage horses go. I just hope I can make a better decision this time. I just can't take another heartbreak situation. :-(


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## horseluvr2524

Good luck tihannah! I hope it all works out for you.

So you don't want a thoroughbred at all, or just not a chestnut TB? Ex racehorses tend to be budget friendly and most of them have very successful second careers in dressage and eventing.


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## lostastirrup

Good luck in the horse hunt- I reccomend anything with Arab in it 


Hopefully Forrest can take the basics you've put on him and go to work as a jumper with a better feel and an easier ride. I've always been leery of moving horses along- because for me rarely have I had the opportunity to, but I think you're probably right that you'll both be happier with a different situation. I think you'll find after having done a toughie youve started to become a really good rider. School master days are great- they teach us what ought to be, but the complicated weirdos teach us to ride with tact and creativity. Sounds like he's been your crash course.


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## Tihannah

horseluvr2524 said:


> Good luck tihannah! I hope it all works out for you.
> 
> So you don't want a thoroughbred at all, or just not a chestnut TB? Ex racehorses tend to be budget friendly and most of them have very successful second careers in dressage and eventing.


Oh, I've been looking at a ton of TB's, but NO chestnuts! Lol. 

I've got a crush on this little guy. I thinks he's got a lot of potential, but he's a tad over budget.






And he's a super nice jumper! I would like to dabble in some lower level eventing just for fun, so I think a nice OTTB wouldn't be a bad choice.


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## Golden Horse

I would think hard and long about your priorities for the next one....what is it that you REALLY enjoy, what do you really want to do..and find a horse who will fit that..

This guy is cute, but maybe a bit heavy in the hand.

LOL I totally get shopping on a tight budget, and there will always be compromises, but just start making a list of what you can and can't shift on...for instance, no chestnuts, might have to put on the back burner, if everything else is AOK.....you know that upheaded red mares were at the bottom of my shopping list, and see what I ended up with. I have found with her that I really like unpacking problems, she is always challenging, but at the same time we have always made progress, slowly, and that is what I enjoy....not sure if I suddenly had a $10k budget if I would want to buy something with all the buttons installed....

Sit back, write a list of your dreams, ambitions, etc etc, what you can and will accept, what you really don't want to deal with, and stick to it....Horse shopping, the most frustrating thing ever!


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## carshon

I am sorry to see the turn of events with Forrest and am surprised to see that you now say you want a horse that will do low level jumpers and eventers. Is it not possible that Forrest may have a change of heart with dressage after he spent a little time doing what he likes and is good at? Maybe he needs that confidence boost as well and is reverting back to what he knew before he goes onto something new.

I completely understand that some horses are not meant to be with some people but I think that Forrest is a gift that is not completely unwrapped and it sounds like you are not entirely married to dressage.


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## Tihannah

carshon said:


> I am sorry to see the turn of events with Forrest and am surprised to see that you now say you want a horse that will do low level jumpers and eventers. Is it not possible that Forrest may have a change of heart with dressage after he spent a little time doing what he likes and is good at? Maybe he needs that confidence boost as well and is reverting back to what he knew before he goes onto something new.
> 
> I completely understand that some horses are not meant to be with some people but I think that Forrest is a gift that is not completely unwrapped and it sounds like you are not entirely married to dressage.


The low level eventing would be just for fun. Everyone at my barn events, so I've kinda become open to toying with it a bit, but no, dressage is truly my passion.

You'd honestly have to see it to understand the situation with Forrest. When nearly every ride is forced or a fight, it's just not enjoyable for either of us. It's exhausting and frustrating. :-( 

On another note, there are exciting new developments in the works on a potential future horse. A good friend has presented an amazing opportunity with a nonprofit organization that rehomes OTTB's. It's not your typical rehoming type situation and the horses are SUPER nice. I'm currently in talks and should receive pics in the next few days on a possible match. If all works out, fingers crossed, he would arrive in 90 days, which would give me plenty of time to work out a new situation with Forrest, whether it be sale or lease. There would actually be no rush and if need be, he could stay with me as long as he needs to.


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## DanteDressageNerd

I hope the best for you in your horse shopping. You've come a long way since last year and can handle a lot more. A lot of stuff you wouldn't have been able to handle and work through if it weren't for Forrest. Some horses, just like people don't come into our lives to stay forever but to teach us something important. I think that is what he came into your life to do. Prepare you for the next horse and situation. It's going to be great!


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## Tihannah

Nothing is confirmed yet, but I just got the first picture of the horse being offered and I can't lie, he is what she said. Should get more pics and hopefully video soon!


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## horseluvr2524

What a looker! Good legs too. I dislike the TBs with twigs for legs. This one looks like he would hold up to years of work. And he is definitely drool worthy.


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## Golden Horse

Tihannah said:


> Should get more pics and hopefully video soon!


Exciting! the video will be the thing to look forward to.


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## Tihannah

I also reached out to my clinician this morning about sending him to him for 60 days to put the foundation on him for me. He said he has a waiting list right now, but would make an exception for me.  I love this guy to death. He is all about happy horses and correct training and I feel like I could send him a donkey and have my next great dressage prospect! Lol.


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## updownrider

Handsome! Good luck with him. I can't wait to follow your journey.


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## DanteDressageNerd

That's awesome that he's willing to take him on for 60 days to put a foundation on him! *fingers crossed* it's a good deal! I hope this will be a happy ending for you! Good luck finding Forrest a home!


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## Tihannah

I just got off the phone with the Animal Communicator...

I'm not even sure where to go from here based on what she told me. :-/ In fact, I'm not even sure what to tell my vet!

She only asked for his name, age, and color and then what I had a question about. I explained his behavior in the saddle and then we've been trying to diagnose whether it's a lameness issue or a behavioral issue.

She somehow spoke with Forrest, and honestly, I don't know where to go from here, but maybe some of you may have heard of this. She said the problem is not coming from his hind end. She said that he told her when that when the saddle is on and he is asked to lift his back where the saddle sits and he has to lower his head, it feels like a needle is being stabbed into his sternum and he can't breathe and it makes him panic. He said the pain shoots up to his withers and then straight up to his poll.

She also said that she wasn't seeing a behavioral issue, that he's not mean, or trying to be defiant. That he can't breathe and simply feels panicked when being asked to round and drop his head.

I've never even heard of anything like this and she didn't even know what to tell me. She said that this may be something that can't be fixed and he needs to retire, or maybe he needs a bone scan or MRI to figure out what's causing it. 

Have any of you heard of anything like this?


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## DanteDressageNerd

I think it might be worth a shot to look into it, it makes sense if it's a pain and a fear thing and he can't breathe. It's certainly possible. Is there a good vet you can talk to about it? Would you need to take him to the university if you decide to keep him and invest in the diagnosis? Even if you get a diagnosis, you might not be able to fix him. I don't know but it gives you something to think about.


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## Tihannah

DanteDressageNerd said:


> I think it might be worth a shot to look into it, it makes sense if it's a pain and a fear thing and he can't breathe. It's certainly possible. Is there a good vet you can talk to about it? Would you need to take him to the university if you decide to keep him and invest in the diagnosis? Even if you get a diagnosis, you might not be able to fix him. I don't know but it gives you something to think about.


A bone scan would definitely be a trip to LSU. She didn't sound too positive about it and said at his age, it may be best to retire him. I think I'm going to call my vet and see if he's heard anything like it before.


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## Golden Horse

I’m kind of sad you gave the communicator that much information, would have been more interested in a ‘blind’ reading. What she says makes sense...LOL I can see my vet looking a bit sideways at me if I told them why I wanted diagnostics done...our Chiropractor though, she is more in tune with more ‘spiritual’ messages...

How much did it cost? I would love to find out why Fergie can never chill out.


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## Tihannah

Golden Horse said:


> I’m kind of sad you gave the communicator that much information, would have been more interested in a ‘blind’ reading. What she says makes sense...LOL I can see my vet looking a bit sideways at me if I told them why I wanted diagnostics done...our Chiropractor though, she is more in tune with more ‘spiritual’ messages...
> 
> How much did it cost? I would love to find out why Fergie can never chill out.


Well, she asks what you want to know about. Lol. I tried not to give her too much to go on, but it was interesting cause she'd start talking then pause like she was listening to him, and then be like, "Ohhhh..."

But she was pretty dead on about his reactions in the saddle. And without me telling her anything, she did mention that he was weak in his hip area and that it bothered him, but that was not the root of the issue. It was the Osteopath that gave me her name and recommended her. The whole panicking thing is what really hit home because that's exactly how he acts. Like someone is trying to force him in a box and he needs to break out. 

She charges $45 for the first 15 min, and then $25 for each additional block of 15 minutes. My call was just under 15 minutes, but I was also watching the clock and making sure we didn't go over. Lol. But she didn't try to draw it out or anything. Just told me exactly what she got from him. If you want her info, I can send you her website. She has over 800 reviews on there.


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## Tihannah

On another note...

I came across a thread elsewhere of someone asking about TB lines that were good for dressage. Lots of comments and the top names that kept coming up were:

Danzig - lots of dressage babies, good bone, and nice movement
Storm Cat - Jumps the moon, great movement
Seattle Slew - Great brains and trainability

My potential has all of them in his pedigree!


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## egrogan

^^Do you follow Tamarack Hill Farm/Denny Emerson on Facebook? He's a huge TB pedigree geek with an eye to eventers.


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## Tihannah

egrogan said:


> ^^Do you follow Tamarack Hill Farm/Denny Emerson on Facebook? He's a huge TB pedigree geek with an eye to eventers.


No, but I will definitely check them out!


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## Tihannah

Well...just got off the phone with the vet and frankly, he felt like she was just throwing something out there. Lol. He said could not think of anything even remotely close to what she was describing and said he could do a bronchial, but he didn't think it would yield anything.

He said he understood why I called because of everything we've tried with Forrest, but my best bet was likely to just retire or sell him on. :-(

My only other option at this point would be to take him to LSU, which I simply can't afford right now and don't have transport to get him there and back. And there's always the outcome that an expensive diagnosis might just conclude what I already know in my heart. That he will never be my dream dressage horse. :-(

We are going to try something this evening. Just to see if what she said has any merit. One of the young girls at the barn is going to hop on him bareback and see if it makes a difference. My girth is a Total Saddle Fit girth and I've never used anything different on him. Even when I went to try him, I brought my saddle and girth. And when I've tried other saddles, I've still used my girth. But he's never been girthy or made a peep when I tightened him up. But SHE said it only bothered him when the saddle was on. Not just when someone was in the saddle. So we will see, though I doubt we will see anything different.

I have not heard anything back on the TB, but hopefully soon.


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## KigerQueen

any western riders at your barn? he honestly might make a nice western horse. he can can carry his head lower and just move. have you tried working him on JUST a loose rein like a western horse? 
Also maybe try to ride and work him bareback. could be the girth pinching a nerve. there are ALOT of nerves that run where the girth is. that's why you can make a horse fall over if you cinch up to fast to hard. worth a shot right? 
also pm me your budget. i like to window shop horses so its an excuse to do so lol! and have fun with your TB makeover horse! im fallowing Cozmic one (zenyatta's first foal) on fb who is going through that program now.


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## Tihannah

KigerQueen said:


> any western riders at your barn? he honestly might make a nice western horse. he can can carry his head lower and just move. have you tried working him on JUST a loose rein like a western horse?
> Also maybe try to ride and work him bareback. could be the girth pinching a nerve. there are ALOT of nerves that run where the girth is. that's why you can make a horse fall over if you cinch up to fast to hard. worth a shot right?
> also pm me your budget. i like to window shop horses so its an excuse to do so lol! and have fun with your TB makeover horse! im fallowing Cozmic one (zenyatta's first foal) on fb who is going through that program now.


Yes, he doesn't care about the loose rein unless he has a martingale on. Otherwise, he will just walk around with his nose pointed at the sky. We rode him bareback last night. Didn't make difference. I don't hold much weight to what that lady said. He's never been girthy a day and could care less when you're tightening the girth.

His last 2 of 3 owners were western and he was too much horse for them. He doesn't move or carrying himself like a western horse, so they are often at a loss on how to ride him. His strides and gaits are too big and he won't give you his head, so unless you have a good seat and core, it will feel like he's running away with you.

I rode him bareback last night for 30 min at a walk. I could never get more than 3 strides of dropping his head and it was mostly just so he could dip down and then try to snatch the reins from you. Afterwards, I threw a saddle and the standing martingale on him and took him out to the dressage arena. He's a lot quieter in the standing, and will walk somewhat relaxed on a loose rein, but you can't really make him use his hind and lift through his back. I'm just gonna keep him in the standing because I don't want to fight with him anymore.

We're heading out this morning and I will get REAL video for you guys of what I'm dealing with. No martingales. And you will see that nothing has really changed with him in the last 9 months... :-(


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## Tihannah

Well, I didn't go out to the barn today. Instead I went to visit a friend in Alabama (hour drive). She wanted me to not only come out to ride with her (she has several horses), but also to witness her baby being backed by a natural horsemanship guy. This was only his second session. The baby is a coming 4 yr old Hanoverian.

When she first told me that a western guy was backing her baby, I was like, "Really??" Lol. But she let me know that the discipline wasn't important, it was the foundation, and this guy was really good. So you know I had to go see! 

This guy was...incredible. I've heard about Natural Horsemanship here and there, but I've never given much thought to it. But to see how he worked with this baby and how she responded to his methods? Wow. SUPER nice guy. No arrogance whatsoever. And he required that the owners be there to be educated and understand what he was doing. He explained everything as he worked and we were fascinated. He worked with her in a round pen and never stayed on any one thing too long-once it was established and she understood, they moved on.

But to see how much respect this baby had for him was fascinating. It was like he had an invisible lead rope on her. At one point he saddled her (only her 2nd time with a saddle on) and told her to move out. I'm leaving out a lot of detail, but she broke in to a canter and started bucking and charging around the ring. He gave her a moment to work it out and settle down and then he slowly stepped back and raised a hand to his chest and she instantly went from canter to a halt facing him. And she just stood there waiting for his next direction.

Everything he did with her was a teaching method. Nothing was forced on her and he never moved on until she was relaxed and accepting. When he turned his back and moved, she was right there with him. She never looked scared or uneasy and seemed to really enjoy his presence. He praised and rubbed her when she figured things out and she loved it. She was so relaxed with him that at some points, the baby would come out, and she would start nibbling on his lead rope. I was sold and so many of the things he did and said just made sense. The way she reacted and responded to him was just fascinating. He used a rope halter, lead rope, and his hands. That's it.

So at the end of the session, I decided to ask him about Forrest. I explained his behavior and the whole giraffe thing and resistance to any contact. I really reiterated how difficult it's been, all the things we've tried, all the vet and chiropractor visits. He asked me a few questions, but he had no doubt in his mind. He thinks he can fix him. I told him that there hasn't been a single trainer that's gotten on him that hasn't gotten frustrated and thrown up their hands. That he brings the frustration out in everyone that tries to work with him, because no one has ever seen anything like it. He laughed and said, "If he doesn't trust anyone, there's no way they're going to fix it in the saddle, and there's nothing you can tie him down with that's gonna change his mind. It has to be done from the ground first. And that's where we'll begin. And I won't get in the saddle until I have him on the ground." He said without a doubt, that Forrest has dealt with some harsh people with harsh hands and what I'm dealing with is a horses that believes he has to constantly protect himself. He said he's going to change the way Forrest thinks.

Is it crazy that I can't stop wanting to fix this horse? Even after I decided that I was selling him and moving on?? Lol. I love him. I really do. And if this man can fix the block in his mind, I will cry some serious tears. I have my doubts, of course, but after seeing the work he did with that baby today, I am hopeful. He is going to call me tomorrow to set up the first appointment.


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## Golden Horse

I can understand wanting to solve the puzzle! If you can find a way of changing his view on life then maybe you’ll want to keep trying, BUT that kind of doesn’t matter, anything you can do to make him more adaptable, more rideable is going to improve your chances of selling him. More importantly it will improve his chances of a soft landing and a good life ongoing.


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## Tihannah

Golden Horse said:


> I can understand wanting to solve the puzzle! If you can find a way of changing his view on life then maybe you’ll want to keep trying, BUT that kind of doesn’t matter, anything you can do to make him more adaptable, more rideable is going to improve your chances of selling him. More importantly it will improve his chances of a soft landing and a good life ongoing.


That too! Definitely!


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## KigerQueen

I like a mix of natural horsemanship and some classical dressage. i'm more exposed to natural horsemanship and my arab LOVES it and odie is figuring it out. worth a try right? Also my walker moves more like a dressage horse and has big gates too (big trot and canter) but he is still a nice western horse. you see a few friesians out here that are western horses lol! but i hear what you are saying. and nothing wrong with wanting to fix him. took me YEARS of refusing to give up to find my arabs issue. 

I will say if this guy can't help you with him then maybe he needs to no longer be worked (or maybe find a new discipline. maybe driving since their heads are high?). I do agree with getting a tb, or a hanoverian (but im partial to them).


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## ClearDonkey

Tihannah said:


> Well, I didn't go out to the barn today. Instead I went to visit a friend in Alabama (hour drive). She wanted me to not only come out to ride with her (she has several horses), but also to witness her baby being backed by a natural horsemanship guy. This was only his second session. The baby is a coming 4 yr old Hanoverian.
> 
> When she first told me that a western guy was backing her baby, I was like, "Really??" Lol. But she let me know that the discipline wasn't important, it was the foundation, and this guy was really good. So you know I had to go see!
> 
> This guy was...incredible. I've heard about Natural Horsemanship here and there, but I've never given much thought to it. But to see how he worked with this baby and how she responded to his methods? Wow. SUPER nice guy. No arrogance whatsoever. And he required that the owners be there to be educated and understand what he was doing. He explained everything as he worked and we were fascinated. He worked with her in a round pen and never stayed on any one thing too long-once it was established and she understood, they moved on.
> 
> But to see how much respect this baby had for him was fascinating. It was like he had an invisible lead rope on her. At one point he saddled her (only her 2nd time with a saddle on) and told her to move out. I'm leaving out a lot of detail, but she broke in to a canter and started bucking and charging around the ring. He gave her a moment to work it out and settle down and then he slowly stepped back and raised a hand to his chest and she instantly went from canter to a halt facing him. And she just stood there waiting for his next direction.
> 
> Everything he did with her was a teaching method. Nothing was forced on her and he never moved on until she was relaxed and accepting. When he turned his back and moved, she was right there with him. She never looked scared or uneasy and seemed to really enjoy his presence. He praised and rubbed her when she figured things out and she loved it. She was so relaxed with him that at some points, the baby would come out, and she would start nibbling on his lead rope. I was sold and so many of the things he did and said just made sense. The way she reacted and responded to him was just fascinating. He used a rope halter, lead rope, and his hands. That's it.
> 
> So at the end of the session, I decided to ask him about Forrest. I explained his behavior and the whole giraffe thing and resistance to any contact. I really reiterated how difficult it's been, all the things we've tried, all the vet and chiropractor visits. He asked me a few questions, but he had no doubt in his mind. He thinks he can fix him. I told him that there hasn't been a single trainer that's gotten on him that hasn't gotten frustrated and thrown up their hands. That he brings the frustration out in everyone that tries to work with him, because no one has ever seen anything like it. He laughed and said, "If he doesn't trust anyone, there's no way they're going to fix it in the saddle, and there's nothing you can tie him down with that's gonna change his mind. It has to be done from the ground first. And that's where we'll begin. And I won't get in the saddle until I have him on the ground." He said without a doubt, that Forrest has dealt with some harsh people with harsh hands and what I'm dealing with is a horses that believes he has to constantly protect himself. He said he's going to change the way Forrest thinks.
> 
> Is it crazy that I can't stop wanting to fix this horse? Even after I decided that I was selling him and moving on?? Lol. I love him. I really do. And if this man can fix the block in his mind, I will cry some serious tears. I have my doubts, of course, but after seeing the work he did with that baby today, I am hopeful. He is going to call me tomorrow to set up the first appointment.


I hope that I can somehow put my thoughts into words on this one -- I come from a natural horsemanship background, and I have seen it work wonders for horses that I have restarted, or trained from scratch. I am hoping that I have pictures of a mare that I restarted, as she was naturally a giraffe, and whenever any pressure was put on her, her head would shoot up and not come down, sometimes leading to rearing. Here is a little backstory on her: 

I got Flame as a 10 year old Arabian, never been saddled or ridden. Her previous owner was ready to send her to auction, because she had flipped over while he was ground driving her, and he was scared of her. His farrier (who was also my farrier), connected me with him, with hopes that I could take her, restart her, and rehome her afterwards. But, my farrier warned me that he was INCREDIBLY rough with her at times, sometimes cornering her and chasing her around with a pitchfork, and just in general, beating on her to get what he wanted. I can only assume that she flipped over while ground driving because he was pushing her way too hard.

When I got her, I had her saddle broke within the first couple of weeks - she was THAT easy of a horse. I tossed a saddle on one day, got on, and she did walk trot just fine, but her head was always in the air, regardless if I was riding in a halter or bridle. If I gave her any pressure to lower her head, she would raise it higher, or rear. My two solutions to end this were:
1. Fix the issue on long lines
2. Call Nancy
I did the long lines for a bit, so I could safely try to get her to relax into the bridle and lower her head, without the danger of being flipped over on. I got her to a pretty good point while doing this, but there was still instances where if she got worked up, there was no getting her focus back for the rest of the time. At points, she would be in the air more than she would be on the ground, and all I could see is the whites of her eyes. So, Nancy was called.

Nancy has practiced natural horsemanship for SO MANY years, mainly following Parelli (don't start anything, please), and branching out to other methods as needed. She had been out of horses for a couple of years at that point, but she was willing to come and show me a few methods that I hadn't used previously. Let me tell you, for an older, retired lady, as soon as she stepped in and began working with Flame, I saw so much change in that horse. I know a lot of people knock Parelli and natural horsemanship, but when it is done right, it is just amazing to watch the transformation. Some horses just don't work with traditional methods, and they never will work with traditional methods. You can throw as many martingales, tie downs, long lines, etc on them, and it won't make a difference. But as soon as you step back, and work with them, great things can happen. Within the half an hour that Nancy worked with Flame, I saw the wheels in her braining turning, and rather than instantly panicking, she was willing to think through what we were asking of her. 

Unfortunately, before I could build much further on what Nancy had taught us, Flame passed away, but, I knew that her final months of life were probably the best she's had, as she no longer was seeing fear everywhere. 

So, tl;dr, I say give him a chance, even if it is only a week or two. Keep horse searching, but give natural horsemanship a chance.


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## Tihannah

@ClearDonkey - thank you for sharing that. I literally just got off the phone with him and again, I can't tell you how much I like him. Apparently, he is a HUGE follower of Buck Brannaman. I don't know if he's actually worked with him, but his methods are based on Brannaman, and I think it's definitely worth a shot!

We spoke for quite a bit and I, again, explained my trepidation about Forrest and whether anything would actually work with him. We spoke about whether or not the work he did on the ground would actually translate into the saddle. Whether or not Forrest could transition what he learns from when he works with him, to when I work with him. I told him that I honestly don't know how long Forrest has been like this. Only that he came to me like this, and we thought we could fix it in a couple weeks. I told him that I had pretty much given up on him and resigned to selling him and starting over on a green horse.

He felt all my concerns were legitimate, but was still confident that he could get through to him. He did reiterate that I needed to be present and absorb everything he was teaching Forrest and continue to implement the things he taught us. He said that he could absolutely revert back , but that would depend on me. He didn't think he was too old to change, but he did think that I would have to remain active about keeping the change in his way of thinking.

He is coming Friday morning, and I am pretty anxious to see what happens in this first session. I told him I would like to wait and see how Forrest responds to his methods and then discuss with him afterwards about the possibility of either moving forward or starting over with a new horse, and he was very open to that. I've been so hopeful so many times with Forrest, only to be disappointed again and again. It would be really nice if something actually worked.


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## KigerQueen

its worth a shot! i LOVE buck and his methods. heck i even like Clinton Anderson's methods (just used with common sence). maybe youtube some of bucks vids or even clinton anderson's vids. Clinton is VERY good at teaching and nothing wrong with seeing how it can go. most of my stuff is a mix of things but CA is the base.


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## SADDLEBRED1959

Wtg super nice horse good luck!


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## Rainaisabelle

Keen to hear how you go 🙂


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## Tihannah

KigerQueen said:


> its worth a shot! i LOVE buck and his methods. heck i even like Clinton Anderson's methods (just used with common sence). maybe youtube some of bucks vids or even clinton anderson's vids. Clinton is VERY good at teaching and nothing wrong with seeing how it can go. most of my stuff is a mix of things but CA is the base.


I've watched a few videos on Buck and was pretty pleased with what I saw. Though I think CA's methods work on some horses, I'm not a big fan. He seems to use more of a forced, take charge approach. I've watched some where he told the owner that they needed to make their horse fear for it's life. I would never want to implement that on Forrest. It's part of the reason he's like he is.

I think Buck's method is more about trust and understanding. In his session with the 4yr old, this trainer, in 15 minutes, sitting on the round pen fence, had taught the baby how to line her body up with his to make it easy to mount. He was so patient and gave her time to figure it out. And whenever she took one step in the right direction, he praised and patted her. She loved it and looked so proud of herself when she figured it out. He'd sit there talking to us and she'd just be nibbling on his chaps or the rope hanging from his belt. And he reiterated that she was a baby and it was okay to let her get comfortable and play with things. The goal was to teach her without making her stressed. And that's what has to happen with Forrest if he's ever going to go like a normal horse.


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## carshon

@Tihannah I could have cried when I read your post. so glad you are still working to find out what makes Forrest tick. So PROUD of you for wanting to do what's right for the horse when your own dreams have to be put on hold for a bit.

I cannot wait for more updates. Even if ultimately he is not a dressage horse he is going to go on to the next owner a far better horse than when you got him.


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## Tazzie

I think you're doing a great thing for him! I'm already dying for it to be Friday so we can hear all about how it goes! You are a wonderful, wonderful horse owner and he's SO lucky to have you on his team!


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## Tihannah

More than anything, I just want to see him succeed. He's a super nice horse and the kindest soul. Nothing would make me happier than erasing whatever happened to him. I'm going to ask if I can video the session on Friday. I have terrible short term memory and I really want to make sure I'm doing everything I can to keep Forrest on the right track.


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## KigerQueen

have you tried taking him on a trail ride? dose he relax at all or is it the same? wondering if he is also arena sour. i know mine get a but more fighty if i only work them in the arena.


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## DanteDressageNerd

Natural Horsemanship can get a bad rap because there are some people who are just intolerant of other ideas and try to shove it down on everybody and make it into something it isnt. It isn't "nice horsey" but figuring out how the horse thinks and how their mind works, so you can get the best from them. It's really a lot of traditional methods with a new label. I really really hope it'll help him!


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## Tihannah

KigerQueen said:


> have you tried taking him on a trail ride? dose he relax at all or is it the same? wondering if he is also arena sour. i know mine get a but more fighty if i only work them in the arena.


I switch scenery with him quite a bit. Has nothing to do with it. He doesn't relax in the saddle at all. I rode him in a halter tonight. Though not as bad as with a bit, he still braced and went neck high a lot. When he did lower his head, he still kept it stretched out and forward as much as possible. The only different was that I could get him "somewhat" relaxed and walking on a loose rein. But any contact (in a halter!) caused him to go on the defensive.


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## Cherrij

Tihannah said:


> I switch scenery with him quite a bit. Has nothing to do with it. He doesn't relax in the saddle at all. I rode him in a halter tonight. Though not as bad as with a bit, he still braced and went neck high a lot. When he did lower his head, he still kept it stretched out and forward as much as possible. The only different was that I could get him "somewhat" relaxed and walking on a loose rein. But any contact (in a halter!) caused him to go on the defensive.


Oh my.. I know the feeling. I was riding on Saturday with a bit - because of a windy day, open area to ride in. And an observation was made - the moment I try to keep a light contact, he tenses his neck. The moment I release reins, he actually starts to relax a little. SO I guess I have to learn to ride with no reins at all for a while. But I would love to know the cause for all this.


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## Tihannah

Cherrij said:


> Oh my.. I know the feeling. I was riding on Saturday with a bit - because of a windy day, open area to ride in. And an observation was made - the moment I try to keep a light contact, he tenses his neck. The moment I release reins, he actually starts to relax a little. SO I guess I have to learn to ride with no reins at all for a while. But I would love to know the cause for all this.


The trainer that's coming talked about this and demonstrated for me with his lead rope. He had me hold one end and kept making sharp jerking moments on it almost pulling me forward. And not in any kind of routine motion. Just without warning as he spoke to me. And before I knew it, I was bracing and anticipating the next jerk on the end of the rope. He said to me, "See? It's a natural reaction. But now imagine that rope is in your mouth when I jerk on it." 

He said that most people don't truly understand the concept of release and for them, it's going from 10lbs of pressure to 5lbs of pressure and that's not a real release. The result is usually a horse that braces or becomes dead mouthed. I know Forrest had kids trying to jump him for years. He's not a kids horse - too big and too strong. So I imagine there was quite a bit of yanking on his mouth and he's fairly sensitive, so his bracing and self protection is now extreme in any type situation. This is what we have to fix.


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## Cherrij

Tihannah said:


> The trainer that's coming talked about this and demonstrated for me with his lead rope. He had me hold one end and kept making sharp jerking moments on it almost pulling me forward. And not in any kind of routine motion. Just without warning as he spoke to me. And before I knew it, I was bracing and anticipating the next jerk on the end of the rope. He said to me, "See? It's a natural reaction. But now imagine that rope is in your mouth when I jerk on it."
> 
> He said that most people don't truly understand the concept of release and for them, it's going from 10lbs of pressure to 5lbs of pressure and that's not a real release. The result is usually a horse that braces or becomes dead mouthed. I know Forrest had kids trying to jump him for years. He's not a kids horse - too big and too strong. So I imagine there was quite a bit of yanking on his mouth and he's fairly sensitive, so his bracing and self protection is now extreme in any type situation. This is what we have to fix.


To me it's a bit different, because I bought an untrained youngster and raised himself. I always try to be the softest with my hands, apart from when he decides to lean into the bit or pull the other way - but that is his own doing, then I stop doing anything at all, but I don't follow his head either... 
I have trained him with a mix of classical dressage and different horsemanship methods and for some reason nothing seems to get him trotting with a lower neck. So we are hoping that a lot more fitness work might actually allow him to use his back at some point... 
Usually I know that I could ride with thin threads as reins, as I only take them up so much to straighten them.. but... something is off in our duet. Also why I like bitless, but I can't afford one bridle that seems to work for us..


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## Tihannah

I rode him again tonight in a halter and we had our first REAL breakthrough. It was pretty amazing. No whip, no spurs, no martingale, no bridle, no bit and we had one of our best rides ever. 

It took a good 25 min, but I really focused on just trying to make him understand what I was asking. He started out bracing, some giraffe, and fully extended. We ended in a beautiful trot stretching down and really using his hind end. It was so lovely, and frankly unbelievable, that we'd even gathered a small crowd. Lol.

The best remarks from onlookers were:

"I've never seen him that round!"

"Honey, if a hunter saw that right now, you could get $20k for him easy!" This was during our stretchy trot. Lol.

My favorite part about this ride is that he was more relaxed than I've ever seen him. For awhile now, I'd stopped riding him back to the barn. No matter what we worked on, or how well he did, he would throw everything out the window, brace, and try to run back. Even on a loose rein! But tonight he felt totally different, so I tried it. Gave him a loose rein, and he walked totally relaxed and stretched down the entire way. It truly made my day! 

P.S. The most difficult part was trying to keep him from running. Once he gets going, he can be super hard to bring back. I'm going to have a helluva core with this one!


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## Cherrij

Awesome! It's always nice to have at least a little bit of progress and good feelings


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## carshon

You are an amazing owner - I just have to say that, who would think to ride a bracey forward horse in just a halter? Nope not this girl. I look forward to your journal - and my heart broke when I saw you were thinking of selling. But I understood. and now to see more break throughs is awesome.

I hate to be the person that posts their own stories when someone else says something but I will tell you - I am just a hack, a back yard rider that showed local shows until high school. I bought a horse out of a kill pen on a whim (she reminded me of my heart horse) the horse had major behavioral issues - would run backwards and try to flip herself over. I called previous owners (she was papered and had a coggins) and was told that an old man had owned her and just bred her and bred her and he hacked around a little on her. The gentleman died and they gave the mare to a "girl down the road" who wanted to barrel race her. The "girl" sent her to a trainer and when the mare got too forward he would flip her over and sit on her neck. it got to be that when ever the rider reprimanded her she would rear and flip herself over. so to the kill buyer she went. Labeled as dangerous. My friends and I were sitting at a horse sale just chatting after the ridable horses went through and they ran her in loose. And I kid you not that horse stopped in front of the stands where we were sitting looked me right in the eye and whinnied at me - I still want to cry every time I think about it. And for some unknown reason I lifted my hand up and purchased her for $400. My hubby and friends were shocked (and so was I) the trader that hauled her in met us in the back and warned us that she was broke but "crazy" but her kind eye told me different. We brought her home and I wish I could tell you that it was all some miracle Hallmark style movie but it wasn't. She was stiff and scared whenever you got on her back. Had to be ridden in a tie down because when nervous she would flip her head up and back (got a could of black eyes finding that out) We had some great rides and some really bad rides where I got off and walked for a bit before getting back on. She would literally jump or scramble over any fence or gate if a man approached her too fast or in an aggressive manner. it took my hubby a lot of treats and a lawn chair a few beers to get to be able to pet her. BUT - after the first year our rides were more good than bad - and I found out that she loved to trail ride, and she was brave and confident. She would go where ever I pointed her - many times jumping over trees that were chest high. Senorita brought back a lot of confidence I had lost after a few years of very little riding when my kids were little and after my heart horse passed away. We worked through our issues together - and in the end neither of us was perfect but we worked well together. Senorita passed away in 2016 at age of 23. 

I see so much of Senorita in Forrest and know that gem is in there. Even if ultimately he is not cut out for dressage I want to thank you on his behalf for making his future brighter for any owner that gets him later on.


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## Tihannah

carshon said:


> You are an amazing owner - I just have to say that, who would think to ride a bracey forward horse in just a halter? Nope not this girl. I look forward to your journal - and my heart broke when I saw you were thinking of selling. But I understood. and now to see more break throughs is awesome.
> 
> I hate to be the person that posts their own stories when someone else says something but I will tell you - I am just a hack, a back yard rider that showed local shows until high school. I bought a horse out of a kill pen on a whim (she reminded me of my heart horse) the horse had major behavioral issues - would run backwards and try to flip herself over. I called previous owners (she was papered and had a coggins) and was told that an old man had owned her and just bred her and bred her and he hacked around a little on her. The gentleman died and they gave the mare to a "girl down the road" who wanted to barrel race her. The "girl" sent her to a trainer and when the mare got too forward he would flip her over and sit on her neck. it got to be that when ever the rider reprimanded her she would rear and flip herself over. so to the kill buyer she went. Labeled as dangerous. My friends and I were sitting at a horse sale just chatting after the ridable horses went through and they ran her in loose. And I kid you not that horse stopped in front of the stands where we were sitting looked me right in the eye and whinnied at me - I still want to cry every time I think about it. And for some unknown reason I lifted my hand up and purchased her for $400. My hubby and friends were shocked (and so was I) the trader that hauled her in met us in the back and warned us that she was broke but "crazy" but her kind eye told me different. We brought her home and I wish I could tell you that it was all some miracle Hallmark style movie but it wasn't. She was stiff and scared whenever you got on her back. Had to be ridden in a tie down because when nervous she would flip her head up and back (got a could of black eyes finding that out) We had some great rides and some really bad rides where I got off and walked for a bit before getting back on. She would literally jump or scramble over any fence or gate if a man approached her too fast or in an aggressive manner. it took my hubby a lot of treats and a lawn chair a few beers to get to be able to pet her. BUT - after the first year our rides were more good than bad - and I found out that she loved to trail ride, and she was brave and confident. She would go where ever I pointed her - many times jumping over trees that were chest high. Senorita brought back a lot of confidence I had lost after a few years of very little riding when my kids were little and after my heart horse passed away. We worked through our issues together - and in the end neither of us was perfect but we worked well together. Senorita passed away in 2016 at age of 23.
> 
> I see so much of Senorita in Forrest and know that gem is in there. Even if ultimately he is not cut out for dressage I want to thank you on his behalf for making his future brighter for any owner that gets him later on.


Thank you for sharing this. Made me tear up. I think that was amazing what you did and I'm glad that mare got to know a different life where she didn't have to be scared all the time. It's an amazing feeling when you earn the trust of a horse like that.

Part of that is why I feel so indebted to Forrest and guilty about not getting it right. With all the things I've tried with him - side reins, and martingales, tie downs, and different bits and trying to force him to go how I wanted him to go. You'd think he'd hate me! lol. But even still, when I show up at the barn and he's in his stall, as soon as I get outta my car, he's calling out to me like, "Mom! Where you been?!" :smile:

And you know, in all this time I've had him, I never considered riding him in a halter, just because of what you said. He's big and strong, braces, and like to run with you as an evasion tactic. But in this time, I've really worked hard to teach him to respond to my seat and I've learned that nothing he does is to be mean or try to get you off. It's just how he tries to protect himself. And it's funny cause even though he's kinda running away with you, he still listens and turns whichever way you ask him to go. You don't have to fear anything cause he would never try to hurt you. NEVER.

When I rode him yesterday, I really tried to apply some of things that trainer told me and what I saw in some of the videos related to that type training. That the pressure doesn't have to be strong or forced. When he was training that baby, he just use soft tugs on the lead line until she gave what he was asking, then total release, pats and praise. And that's what I did with Forrest. Trying to get him to soften and release in his neck, I just used soft tugs on my inside rein. And whenever he gave me just a little, I released. And I just kept turning him in figure 8's and asking him to bend his body. And at some point it clicked and then he started softening more and dropping his head more and bending and looking to the inside. And I listened, really listened to him. And he'd tell me he was relaxing more by giving me those long flubber exhales, and I'd praise him.

The stretchy trot was the best and I wish you guys could have seen it. He was so relaxed and stretched down and perfectly bent to the inside on the circle. He had a steady rhythm and just looked like he was in the zone and really enjoying it and working over his back. I felt like a million bucks in the saddle! Lol. There's been many times when he acted like he wanted to stretch down, but when he went down and against the bit, he always backed off and popped back up. This ride gave me a lot of hope and encouragement and kind of solidified what I have been trying to figure out all along. That this was more of a mental issue than physical. If this trainer can help create the same understanding with him on the bit, I don't know how I could ever sell him...


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## Tihannah

The trainer called yesterday and asked if we could move our appt up a day! I took the day off and am going out to meet him this morning at 10am! I'll try to get video!


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## Tazzie

And now I shall die of anticipation all day!!


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## carshon

CANNOT WAIT for an update!


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## egrogan

Me too! Hope it’s enlightening!


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## Tihannah

First session went REALLY well and opened my eyes to a lot of things about Forrest.

He is still certain that he can fix him. He absolutely LOVED Forrest and said he was his kind of horse and can't wait to ride him. I told him he might change his mind once he gets in the saddle! Lol. But at the end of the session he told me what he saw - that Forrest is nothing more than a really green, dull horse who has never been given a good foundation and has just been trying to get through life doing what he knows or can figure out. He said he's a big horse and really has no idea where his feet are, how to move them, or how his body works. He said that we wasn't just bracing in his neck, but in his hind as well, so that is what they spent most of the session working on. Getting him to move his hindquarters, yet stay soft and forward. He also said that Forrest's temperament and lack of REAL training has made him dull and he doesn't respond to things the way he should, but that we would fix that too.

One other thing that really stood out to me that he saw right away was something I've been trying to tell people FOREVER. Dressage people will always tell you that you have to push the horse up into the contact. And this is what people have always tried with Forrest, despite me telling them that it doesn't work. He noticed right away on the ground that Forrest is a forward moving horse, and said that a horse like this that braces throughout his whole body can never be pushed into the contact. That he will keep going forward and getting faster, but he will never be on the bit. He explained that until Forrest learned how to soften, give through his body, and move his hind, asking him or trying to force him onto the bit would never happen. And that's what all the groundwork is for. 

He worked on a lot of simple foundational things that all build up to the more important stuff, but as he explained what he was doing and why, you'd just kinda be like, "Ahhhh..." The barn manager was there and she ended up staying and watching the whole session. The things he talked about made total sense and it just made me feel like so many of us at my barn were skipping or overlooking the important things in creating a great riding partner. 

The good news? I think this is the first truly GOOD direction I have taken with Forrest. I don't think this guy can "fix" him. He says Forrest isn't broken, he's just lost. (hehe - Finding Forrest!) But I do think he can help US both become better and be good at what we're trying to achieve. This training is not just for Forrest, but for me as well. I'm learning just as much as he is. The next session he is going to bring me a bunch of reading material and perhaps some DVD's to watch.

The bad news is that we only have until June to get in as many sessions as possible. He is leaving to do an internship with some of the top horsemanship trainers around the country and the times span is open-ended. He could be gone for up to a year and a half. :-( 

But he really likes Forrest and wants to get us to a good place before he leaves. I'm probably going to need a 3rd job or start panhandling to be able to afford this, but I simply can't let this opportunity pass us by. Oh, and I did get video, but it's hard to hear what he's saying and they're just working on basic stuff, so I'm not gonna post. I also do not want to leave him open to critique (which always happens). I think he is the first trainer that's taking the right approach with Forrest and I'm excited to work with him, so I think I'll wait until Forrest has progressed a bit and then show where he's at. The trainer thinks he will be in the saddle by the 3rd session.


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## lostastirrup

The post we've all been waiting all day for! so glad it went well. That really makes sense. and best of luck. 

I might also mention- I've totally dressaged on my pony in a halter and it is 100% doable. and really eye opening everytime i do it. Keep at it if its what is working for you guys!


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## Tihannah

lostastirrup said:


> The post we've all been waiting all day for! so glad it went well. That really makes sense. and best of luck.
> 
> I might also mention- I've totally dressaged on my pony in a halter and it is 100% doable. and really eye opening everytime i do it. Keep at it if its what is working for you guys!


Well, the sad part is that I won't be able to ride him until he gets to a good place in this. I don't want to ruin anything he's learning or conquering. In the mean time, my friend in Alabama said I am welcome to come out and ride her horses on the weekends! Still not enough for me, but at least its something!


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## lostastirrup

Groundwork can be pretty darn satisfying. i used to think little of it- if the horse could be sat on with a manageable amount of fireworks, i didnt bother with the groundwork. Now im convinced its essential. not just lunging, but your inhand, your joinup, your "followmearoundthearena" Nick and I are learning QH showmanship for the heck of it and its been really good for him. and Its super fun to run around the arena with your horse.


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## KigerQueen

My mare has been lame since 2014. soo ground work has been a game for her and she LOVES it. well now she has been vet cleared for riding so the ranch hand (who is maybe 130 lbs sopping wet) is riding her and im seeing MASSIVE improvement in her movements. BUT we still do ground work. even my old horses get some in hand work. they like it (or tolerate it lol) and its good for me to. i am by no means a fantastic rider but i do see use in ground work.

What the trainer said seams to make ALOT of sence. talk with him about what in hand and ground work exercises you can do to help him learn where his feet are. and like i said. maybe youtube some other NH trainers and just get a general understanding in what is to come.


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## carshon

So very happy to see this post. My hubby and I were just talking this morning about how nothing with horses is am "immediate" fix. But always so worth it in the end. So happy that this trainer saw what you were seeing and has a plan of action!


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## knightrider

I love this journal! This is so interesting, and I am thrilled for you.


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## Tihannah

We spoke again today and the trainer is coming back out next Saturday and Sunday. I wish I could afford to do more sessions, but this will have to do. Plus I can't take off in the middle of the week to meet him.

We have a big schooling show at the barn tomorrow and I'm the show secretary so today has been CRAZY to say the least. Tomorrow will be hectic! Not sure I'm cut out for this! Horse folks are on my last nerve right now! Lol.


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## phantomhorse13

Good luck with the show.. I suspect you will need it. Eek.


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## DanteDressageNerd

I'm really glad he's helping you as much as he is Tina. I REALLY REALLY hope he can continue to break through with him and get through him mentally. Natural horsemanship is excellent for working through mental problems. It helps train the mind and help the horse to understand human and a human understand horse. Warrick Schiller is a really good one to look at too!

I was going to say with a lot of dressage horses, especially forward thinking ones you have to slow them down. Too quick you lose the back and throughness and exaggerate the tension. It's true. A lot of people are used to riding a horse behind the leg but it's important to ride a variety. I taught a lesson on a horse where I had to explain you wont' get her forward until you learn to control your mental and emotional energy. She wont go forward off of leg or whip, it's from your mind and energy. It was REALLY hard for her to understand and she's closes to getting her bronze but I got on showed how the horse went and then she got on and really struggled. She's a good rider but I think a lot of the time people forget how important mental energy is. I had to explain to her that it's not a matter of trying harder or making it happen, you can't make a horse do anything but you have to be mentally confident and inspire them. What I was trying to explain to her was like describing the color orange. Nearly impossible. It's not something you can physically do or technically know but something you feel. 

Like with riding and horsemanhip there is a technical aspect and art/finness. The technical aspect a lot of people can get and they can be GP riders with international accomplishments and be missing parts of the art and finess that allows them to work with special cases. I think natural horsemanship focuses more on the mind, where as conventional dressage focuses more on the body, mechanics and "making" a horse do something without working with the mind and explaining it to them and to help them understand the purpose of their job. I think Forrest has had so much pressure, stress and life put on him that he shut down like the natural horseman said. It's a neat project and I'm eager to see how it works out.


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## Tihannah

DanteDressageNerd said:


> Like with riding and horsemanhip there is a technical aspect and art/finness. The technical aspect a lot of people can get and they can be GP riders with international accomplishments and be missing parts of the art and finess that allows them to work with special cases. I think natural horsemanship focuses more on the mind, where as conventional dressage focuses more on the body, mechanics and "making" a horse do something without working with the mind and explaining it to them and to help them understand the purpose of their job. I think Forrest has had so much pressure, stress and life put on him that he shut down like the natural horseman said. It's a neat project and I'm eager to see how it works out.


You really hit the nail on the head with this and could not have explained it better! Something I've come to learn about Forrest is that the more frustrated or impatient you get with him, the harder he is to work with. It's almost like he feels your energy and then the walls go up.

But watching the trainer work with him really made me realize what you just said. He patiently worked with him on the same thing throughout the session, but continuously building on it. And he never asked for too much, just asked him to pay attention and figure it out. And even when Forrest didn't get it exactly right, he'd still rub him and praise him with a "Good try!" At the end of the lesson, he began to wrap it up and asked one more time for Forrest to give him a nice tight circle, and when he did, the trainer said, "Yes!! There it is! Did you see that?? It was perfect! He completely sat back on his hind and gave me that turn nice and soft! THAT's what I was looking for!" It took him 2 hours, but he taught Forrest how to properly use his feet and sit back onto his hind. And that's where he ended it and he was quite pleased with the progress they made. I don't know many dressage instructors that would spend 2 hours trying to teach a horse something like that from the ground. At my barn, the roundpen is only used for sick or injured horses! Lol.

In that respect, I loved that he started off just watching Forrest go in the roundpen and was able to see where his problem areas were and then put together a game plan of how he would work towards the solution. If I could afford to have him out 3-4 times a week to work with him, I wouldn't hesitate a second!


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## Golden Horse

DanteDressageNerd said:


> . I had to explain to her that it's not a matter of trying harder or making it happen, you can't make a horse do anything but you have to be mentally confident and inspire them


Just had to pick out this little bit..

No longer in my lessons do I say "I will try" because that means there is doubt, and unless the rider says "yes we can" or "we'd love to" why on earth do we think our horse will do it...

Believing for yourself and your horse is important..

Back to your scheduled program....


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## Fimargue

I do quite a good amount of groundwork with the horses, it transfers straight under saddle. Already I take my time putting them under saddle. Past incidents and the fact that I build dressage foundation on horses who are not naturally uphill makes you creative and think about different exercises. 

Yesterday I could have cried of joy when my green mare who has had some trouble with pending and canter due to physical causes, did two perfect immediate canter transitions and I had such a thinking flexible horse yesterday. I did my sitting trot exercise where I ask the horse to come back and then immediate response to go forward when I touch with my trot leg. She was so in front of leg that she was ready go to go up to trot only from the half halt. She still has trouble with leg yield so I work that also on the ground. She finds walk pirouettes easier than leg yields.

I do a lot of those exercises where I ask the horse to sit. Instead of rein back, I ask them to go lean back just a little. Then step forward and repeat.

I hope Forrest keeps progressing.


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## Tihannah

Groundwork has been suggested to me a number of times by different people, but I'm being totally honest here, I've only been riding 3 years, and don't know much in the groundwork area above lunging. I think in order to do positive ground work, you need more knowledge than what I currently have. You need to be able to recognize certain aspects of your horse's ability and understand and work on what needs to be improved. I simply don't have that knowledge base, so I feel like my attempts would have been fruitless or even more confusing for him.

These sessions are really for both of us. As he continues to teach Forrest, he is also teaching me and explaining everything he is doing and what he is looking for. This will be a great learning experience for both us!


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## Fimargue

It's not easy to start from 'nothing' by yourself. I had the great fortune of finding a place to work where the horses were in a very natural setting (if the horses decided to disappear to the other end of the 64 acres field, not much I could do about it), and I could watch their interaction. We had mares and babies, stallions and their mares and babies, stallion and his chosen few buddies, stallion with geldings and couple other groups of geldings. Sometimes we would also have some mares and geldings together and that would chance everything to some geldings - they would start showing stud behaviour. 

I'm mostly self taught, but I had a good mentor to show me things and push me into the right direction, and so many things I know because of her.

It will definitely benefit both of you!


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## Tazzie

I'm so glad you had a productive first lesson with this trainer! I really feel your future is bright now, and I'm just dying to see what happens this weekend!


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## Tihannah

Today I had an emotional breakdown in the saddle...

I haven't ridden Forrest in over 2 weeks. The trainer was supposed to do two more sessions with him last weekend, but Saturday he had to cancel because of a stomach virus and then Saturday afternoon my dog of 10 years died unexpectedly and I was devastated. I won't go into details because it still hurts and I don't want to start crying again, but she was like my child. She was 5lbs and I often called her my baby that would never grow up.

I only went to the barn only once last week because there's been so much drama at the barn lately and I didn't want to ride Forrest between his training sessions. Anyhow, so the weekend was pretty much a nightmare and I worked from home yesterday because I was not in any kind of mentality to deal with people and not get emotional about my dog. I went into work today, but I realized that after 2 weeks of not being able to ride, I was becoming angry and bitter, stressed, and full of anxiety. Riding truly is my therapy and release. So I decided I was going to go out and ride Forrest.

Initially, I'd planned to ride him in a halter, but at the last minute I decided to put him in the Nathe bit. I put his standing martingale on, but I didn't connect it to his bridle - just tied in a loop so it would be there "just in case". I didn't know what to expect since I hadn't ridden him in 2 weeks, and the last ride was in a halter. He hadn't gotten very far in his training with only one session, so I figured that there wasn't much I could mess up by riding him. At first, he was being a total jerk and not wanting to stand for me to mount, and I immediately knew it wasn't going to be a good ride. He'd apparently enjoyed his time off and wanting to keep it going.

Instead of asking someone to hold him, I began implementing some of the trainer's ground work right there around the mounting block. Every time I placed it next to him, he start moving forward, so I made him do a small circle around the block and stepping under himself over and over until he stopped moving. If he wanted to move, then he was gonna move his feet the way I wanted him to. And I never pulled on the reins or got rough, I just enforced what I wanted using my hands the way the trainer showed me. I'd then make him back up several steps, then guide him back to the block. We did this for about 10 min round and round until it finally clicked and he stopped moving. Only then did I get on.

I took him in the indoor arena first and he was being quite difficult. Immediately jumping into a fast trot and trying to brace. I kept my hands soft, used only my inside rein, seat, and legs and kept guiding him in tight circles asking him to soften and give. We stayed in the indoor at least 20 minutes until I got him totally relaxed, listening, and giving in his neck and body. Even by this point, I was in awe. I was actually reaching him.

So then I got bold and decided to take him out to the jump arena. We didn't miss a beat and all the way out there, I kept gently reminding him that I expected him to bend and soften. And you know what? He did! While we were out there, we stayed at the walk for maybe 15 minutes, and just did circle and figure 8 patterns all over the place. And he got better and better so that when I dared to go straight a few steps, he didn't even try to go giraffe on me. Once I got him totally relaxed at the walk...I asked for the trot. I kept him in circles, but always changing directions and moving us back and forth across the arena, just keep us bending and turning. He never threw his head up once! He never fought the bit. He didn't head toss. The trot was so smooth and I was in awe at how good it felt to post without him throwing his head and neck around all crazy and being tossed about in the saddle. He felt like a completely different horse. And he was listening to my seat! So when he tried to speed up, I'd give him a good squeeze with my thighs and firm up my core and a soft half halt in my reins and he'd come back. And that was it. I brought him back down to walk and burst into tears patting and praising him.

I couldn't believe it. This was the moment I've been waiting for for 10 months, since the day he stepped off that trailer. We rode without any aids and he went like a normal horse and he actually listened to me. After that it was all golden. We did a few more walk and trot sets and then a short right lead canter and never once, did he try to throw his head up an brace on me. I kept my hands soft and he even stretched down a few times. I ended the ride giving him lots of pats and praise and then we walked back to the barn on a loose rein and he was totally relaxed. It was and felt nothing short of incredible and when I dismounted and led him back into the barn, I burst into tears again. After the horrible past week I had, in that moment, he wiped everything away and I felt happy again. And this, THIS is why I love horses and riding.


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## Golden Horse

That is so incredibly awesome...so happy for you and Forrest.


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## egrogan

So sorry about your dog, but loved the emotion of your ride. :grin:


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## knightrider

Oh! My! Gosh! I got tears in my eyes just reading about it. I can only imagine the emotional roller coaster of the past couple of weeks.


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## Tazzie

I'm so sorry to hear about your pup :sad: *hugs* to you!

But I'm very glad you had such a positive ride! He's something special


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## carshon

Sending cyber hugs for the loss of your pup and another cyber hug for the joy of a great ride! I am so happy that this ride was good and you were able to use the aids the trainer taught you.


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## jaydee

That was a tear jerker. 
So sorry about your dog. Been there and still grieving. Takes a while.
I'm so glad that you had that huge positive with Forrest at a time when everything else seemed to get going against you.


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## PoptartShop

Very, very sorry to hear about your dog. :sad: Hugs & Jingles to you.
It is so sad and painful to have a pet pass away suddenly. 

I am very glad and proud of you & Forrest. That is amazing that he listened to you & is showing so much improvement. :smile: Such a good, willing horse!
I would've burst into tears too! That is a special moment. Rides like that make everything worth it.

Keep it up!! <3


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## Tihannah

What's funny is that I have still been kinda resigned to selling him, and just Monday, a new lady that works at the barn was asking if I was really selling him and that she was interested. She texted me and asked if she could take him out for a ride, but I told her I didn't feel comfortable letting someone on him when I wasn't there. She said she was a good rider and had ridden overseas and with a top jumper here. Lol. I told her that was great, but Forrest wasn't a normal horse and had been ridden by both a GP dressage and Rolex Eventer and neither could really figure him out. She said she wanted him for Fox Hunting, and I actually thought, hmmm...that could be something he actually enjoys doing?? So I told her she could try him one day this week and to just let me know which day.

But now...now everything has changed... That trainer told me that day, "It may not look like I'm really doing anything with him, but trust me, he is learning something here." And he was right. Just the little stuff he taught him about how to move his feet and use his body translated right over into the saddle. The give and take and soft pressure of the lead translated right over to the rein and saddle. He understood what I was asking and giving and he seemed to appreciate the super soft bit and hands.

So as soon as I stopped riding I thought, I can't let her ride him. I can't let anyone ride him except the trainer. He's made REAL progress and I can't risk anyone ruining that and messing up the trust I just built with this horse because they don't understand him. But more than anything, he showed me last night that there is something there to build on. That he can be reached, he just needs help understanding, and not being stressed trying to figure it out. I'm so excited to ride him after work that I have butterflies in my stomach!


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## Golden Horse

Tihannah said:


> I'm so excited to ride him after work that I have butterflies in my stomach!


Just keep in mind that it will still be a roller coaster...

Monday evening Fergie was so chilled, she was AWESOME...was so looking forward to showing coach how nicely she was going when we 'lessoned' on Tuesday...


NOPE

Madam was UP UP UP......it took me a while to get her focused and actually working...why? who knows...woke up on the wrong side of the field maybe...

It is easy to despair when things go wrong, but 'normal' horses have ups and downs as well, just keep it on mind.


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## Tihannah

Golden Horse said:


> Just keep in mind that it will still be a roller coaster...
> 
> Monday evening Fergie was so chilled, she was AWESOME...was so looking forward to showing coach how nicely she was going when we 'lessoned' on Tuesday...
> 
> 
> NOPE
> 
> Madam was UP UP UP......it took me a while to get her focused and actually working...why? who knows...woke up on the wrong side of the field maybe...
> 
> It is easy to despair when things go wrong, but 'normal' horses have ups and downs as well, just keep it on mind.


Lol, you're so right and I was just thinking that. Was thinking about cutting out early and heading to the barn to ride while people were still there. And then I thought, "He's not gonna cooperate at all today!"


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## Tihannah

He was even better tonight! I know I've probably said this before, but it was total hogwash. I truly get him now and understand so much more than I did just 2 weeks ago.. I feel like a veil has been lifted and I can totally see him now. I can see what the trainer has yet to see because he's only worked with him on the ground.

When you get in the saddle, he's instantly tense and stressed, and everything after that is the result of it. I can't imagine how long he's been ridden like this, but he's definitely traumatized from it. We did pretty much the same routine today, except I really focused on getting him relaxed and keeping him there. I kept his body moving and his mind working. Most importantly, I stayed soft and gave him time to work through things. We went from the covered arena to the dressage arena to the jump arena. He did best in the jump arena and I think its just because the footing is better and more even. But in the end, we did a lovely left lead canter and he looked and felt amazing. We've made amazing strides in just 2 rides and I'm simply giddy and overwhelmed with joy. I'm building an understanding with him and actually teaching him things and he's trusting me and learning to relax. It gives me great joy to announce that we are totally DONE with all the aids. I get it now and am so excited for the days and months ahead.


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## lostastirrup

So awesome! Congratulations! Cant wait to see the build up! so is a TB out of the picture for the moment?


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## Tihannah

lostastirrup said:


> So awesome! Congratulations! Cant wait to see the build up! so is a TB out of the picture for the moment?


I'm still torn on him and haven't made a decision. Lord knows I don't need 2 horses, but everyone I've had look at his pics and pedigree tell me that this is a REALLY nice horse with great lines for dressage and eventing and should be a good mover. He won't be ready to ship till July/Aug so I have some time. But I also consider the fact that if I keep Forrest, he's still a senior and this horse is only 3 and he could my next horse when Forrest is ready to be retired. I also have a friend who says she would be happy to keep him at her place so I don't have to worry about board. So yea, I just don't know yet. I won't get video for a few weeks so we'll see.


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## lostastirrup

I'm always a fan of many horses and giving oldies a soft landing. I've always explained to my SO that after college I will need Nick and always an up and coming youngster. 3 is still so young for more than short sessions and lots of turnout. It might be a great way to have a golden oldie and know you're taking care of him and have a dressage horse to progress on.


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## Tihannah

lostastirrup said:


> I'm always a fan of many horses and giving oldies a soft landing. I've always explained to my SO that after college I will need Nick and always an up and coming youngster. 3 is still so young for more than short sessions and lots of turnout. It might be a great way to have a golden oldie and know you're taking care of him and have a dressage horse to progress on.


Yes, and that's what I'm thinking about. I can give him time to mature and develop. My friend has a beautiful place with plenty of acreage and grass. She also is close to some great trainers that would be happy to put the foundation on him when we are ready. In the meantime, I could continue to ride and develop Forrest into the horse I know he can be.

There was a recent thread regarding OTTB's on another forum and I reached out to a poster there that seemed very knowledgeable about the lines in OTTB pedigrees. I sent them a couple pics and his pedigree and this was his/her feedback:



> that is a first class horse ... his dam was also bred to pioneer of the nile and is a *very* classy horse for racing.
> 
> for sport, his dam side is great - her sire is Harlan’s Holiday who is a coveted favorite for eventers because they move well and jump well. Harlan’s Holiday died in 2013 and there are not many of his racing anymore ... a shame he died when he did because he was really nice. harlan is another one that's big for eventers, same thing - sporty, nice movers that can jump.
> 
> blame i don't know much about, but his sire arch is very nice for sport - kris s and roberto both are good moving and good jumping horses.
> 
> i think he is worth a look certainly, if he is within your budget. he looks very classy. he is a little straighter than i like behind, but has a beautiful shoulder. he looks a little wasp-waisted from racing still but that just takes time.
> 
> it looks like he has some filling in that RF. i'd be curious to see him move, i bet he is a light mover with a good canter. his pedigree is full of better than average movers.
> 
> his feet could use a sport horse farrier but otherwise he is certainly worth a look. i don't see how, provided he is sound, he couldn't do what you have in mind provided his personality fits.


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## lostastirrup

Well if he's as wonderful as all that- it would be a shame not to snatch him up! You'd have 2 matching bays for christmas pictures!


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## Rainaisabelle

Tihannah said:


> lostastirrup said:
> 
> 
> 
> So awesome! Congratulations! Cant wait to see the build up! so is a TB out of the picture for the moment?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm still torn on him and haven't made a decision. Lord knows I don't need 2 horses, but everyone I've had look at his pics and pedigree tell me that this is a REALLY nice horse with great lines for dressage and eventing and should be a good mover. He won't be ready to ship till July/Aug so I have some time. But I also consider the fact that if I keep Forrest, he's still a senior and this horse is only 3 and he could my next horse when Forrest is ready to be retired. I also have a friend who says she would be happy to keep him at her place so I don't have to worry about board. So yea, I just don't know yet. I won't get video for a few weeks so we'll see.
Click to expand...

I did the same thing with Roy! It’s part of the reason I got Theo for when Roy retires in a couple of years then I’ll have Theo to work on. The TB you showed me was really nice but I’m so biased to bays and TBs !


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## Tihannah

We rode again tonight and you guys, I mean, I simply CANNOT get over the change in him. It's incredible. The first day I rode him, it took about 25 minutes to get him to settle and relax. Yesterday about 10 minutes. Today? Maybe 2 minutes! We can walk on a loose rein now no problem. When he starts to brace, I just give a soft tug on my inside rein and use my inside legs to push his hind over and he instantly gives. And this is just bracing, no giraffe. The giraffe has left the building!

The only thing I bring with me is my whip and I just use it because he's still stiff in his right hind. He doesn't bend as easily on that side and will get stuck, so I will give him a soft tap behind my leg and then he'll instantly move his legs and come under. Today it took no time to get him soft and yielding and begin trot work. I'm taking it slow and trying not to ask for too much. I don't shorten my reins until I feel he is ready. And when I ask for trot, he gives it to me instantly. Same with canter. We cantered both directions today and at first I just kept him on a circle. When he got stiff or started bracing, I'd just push his hind out and he's soften up. After a couple sets he was totally in the zone, so I branched out and we started cantering around some of the jumps. It was amazing and as long as I kept him bending, he was golden.

When I brought him back down to walk, I patted and praised him so much, and he just loved it and looked so proud of himself. Before, whenever we came back down to walk, he would stop being cooperative and try to head back to the barn. I'd ask for trot again and he'd just ignore me or try to run, and just start being difficult. Now it's totally different. He's totally game and seems to love it even though I can tell it's hard at times. Again, when we finished, we walked back to the barn on a loose rein and totally relaxed. I even rode him over to some friends and we sat there and chatted a bit. He stood cool as a cucumber with his head down. We've never been able to just stand and hang out on his back and the barn crew simply couldn't believe it.

We've had 3 consecutive days of amazing rides, so tomorrow I'm giving him the day off. I want to ride him again sooo bad, but he's done good and I don't want to wear him down. Saturday my guy will come out with me to get video. I can't wait to show you guys my new horse!


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## lostastirrup

So excited!


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## knightrider

I clicked "like" but I would rather click "LOVE!"


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## DanteDressageNerd

That's wonderful Tina! I'm SO SO happy for you and Forrest! I'm SO glad you two are making head way and coming together!


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## horseluvr2524

This is so awesome! It's incredibly cool that you were able to get a few pointers, groundwork instruction mostly, and make this kind of headway.

Your posts have made me more appreciative of the kind of experience and knowledge I have. What I mean is, I don't have the refinement that many of the riders/trainers who have ridden Forrest have. I'm pretty positive that you are a much better rider than I am, Tina. I can stay on a difficult horse, and I can ride in a balanced and kindly manner, but don't ask me to do a half-pass or ride a dressage test. Where my specialty lies is actually difficult horses. I can figure out what makes them tick and come to an understanding with them, thanks to a certain difficult mustang that frustrated many trainers. But I always, always, always start on the ground. I've found that if I get things right on the ground first, things in the saddle come much easier.

Anyway, what I mean by saying all of that, is that it appears to me that groundwork is skipped and passed over by many show barns/trainers/riders, and that is very strange to me. In my knowledge and experience, a good groundwork foundation is the key to a successful partnership with the horse. I can't imagine trying to get anywhere with the horse without having that first. For example, I've rehabbed many barn and buddy sour horses. The key was to get them to trust and follow me as a leader on the ground first, then I could ride them anywhere I wanted, alone or with a group.

I hope you don't mind my musings.

I'm very sorry about your dog by the way. Many condolences and hugs for you!


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## Tihannah

@horseluvr2524 - I could not agree more. Had I known how beneficial and important the groundwork was, I would have seeked it out from the beginning. I still don't know near as much as I should to be any good at it myself, but we have 2 more sessions scheduled this weekend and I truly look forward to learning more.

But even more so than just the groundwork, this trainer taught me the true meaning behind take and release. I really wanted to have great video to show you guys, and Forrest continued to improve this weekend, but each day after I watched the video, I saw many mistakes I made and could've done better with. But this is why I try to video so many of my rides. It helps me a lot to be able to see what I'm doing and how my horse responds and how I can correct it.

Saturday felt much like day 1 of last week and almost made me regret giving him Friday off. He wasn't terrible or going full giraffe, but he was pretty much back in brace mode and not wanting to give. I rushed it and didn't give him enough time to relax and settle, so it wasn't one of our better rides. Sunday, I took him back in the covered arena and spent at least 20 minutes at the walk just asking him to relax and soften. I really took my time with him trying to let him figure it out and that's when it happened. He gave in the poll! 

Now when I say his past rides have been great, they were, but he never gives in his poll without a martingale, and that's just because he doesn't have much options. He will somewhat soften, but he's always kept his neck kinda pushed out and forward - dropped or not. It's just how he's learned to protect himself. And this is also why it's so hard to push him into the contact. But finally, FINALLY, he released his poll. And at first it was just 1 or 2 strides. And then it was 4-5 strides. Trot was pretty much the same. I could get a few strides, but I could tell it was almost foreign to him and he wasn't sure about letting his guard down, but I was happy to take what I could get.

I studied the videos from both Saturday and Sunday, and today I went out with key things to work on - controlling his speed, giving a full release, sitting back, and keeping him relaxed. I took him in the roundpen and we worked for a good 30 minutes and he gave me longer and longer periods of softening in the poll. I even got a few counterbends where he maintained the softness in his poll. When I felt like we were in a good place, I took him out the jump arena. Hands down, our best ride yet. He was giving in his poll and when I was able to control his speed and stride, I was able to push him more onto the bit and get him more round. It wasn't consistent, but it was HUGE and I was super stoked. When it got too hard for him, he would try to lean into my hands, but I pushed him to carry his own front end by using his hind. It really was a great ride.

Right now, my biggest challenge is controlling his speed. Running is one of his biggest evasion tactics and the bit I have him in is so soft that it can be super hard to bring him back. It takes everything I have to slow him down at times, and I HAVE to bring him back in order to get him to soften and use his hind. So now I'm debating whether or not I should put him back in the either the happy mouth or french link baucher. I think as long as I can maintain the softness, he should be okay. Hopefully...


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## Tihannah

Oh, I did get a few pics from our Sunday ride. This was toward the end when he finally started softening in his poll. I was beside myself! lol. And leaning too far forward of course! ;-)


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## lostastirrup

Those are some gorgeous pictures! he's improving looks like tons over night! funny how when the right things click it all starts to come together. 

I refuse to fault you on leaning forward, I've had several clinicians tell me to ride in two point while im asking the horse to stretch over the back IF the horse is weak in the back... actually had to do that yesterday on a geriatric QH with bad feet that at one point in his life showed 1st level and schooled 2nd with ease... sigh. oh well. Point is. There's a pretty position, and theres an effective position- ideally we want both, but I'd take the second over the first if I had to choose. 

Im also a fan of two point for horses who stiffen in the back and havent yet learned to let the energy go through and lift- there was a study a few years back where they put a pressure reading pad under the saddle and mapped the force on the back for 2 point, posting and sitting trot. conclusion was that two point, then posting, then sitting was the progression for least pressure/impact on the back to greatest.... I have a few hypotheses as to why, but I haven't worked out the force equations yet! 

I dont see a reason to get totally worked up on position while riding a green horse- of course we should always be improving! but its okay to not be in the classic dressage position so long as you're in balance and working with the horse


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## Tihannah

lostastirrup said:


> Those are some gorgeous pictures! he's improving looks like tons over night! funny how when the right things click it all starts to come together.
> 
> I refuse to fault you on leaning forward, I've had several clinicians tell me to ride in two point while im asking the horse to stretch over the back IF the horse is weak in the back... actually had to do that yesterday on a geriatric QH with bad feet that at one point in his life showed 1st level and schooled 2nd with ease... sigh. oh well. Point is. There's a pretty position, and theres an effective position- ideally we want both, but I'd take the second over the first if I had to choose.
> 
> Im also a fan of two point for horses who stiffen in the back and havent yet learned to let the energy go through and lift- there was a study a few years back where they put a pressure reading pad under the saddle and mapped the force on the back for 2 point, posting and sitting trot. conclusion was that two point, then posting, then sitting was the progression for least pressure/impact on the back to greatest.... I have a few hypotheses as to why, but I haven't worked out the force equations yet!
> 
> I dont see a reason to get totally worked up on position while riding a green horse- of course we should always be improving! but its okay to not be in the classic dressage position so long as you're in balance and working with the horse


I love this and have never actually thought about it in this sense. He has kinda trained me to do this because when he gives or drops his head, I'm trying my hardest to give with him, and so I lean forward so as not to let him catch his mouth when he reaches down. He likes to keep his neck extended out and forward and I want to coax him to soften, but if I try to hold the length and contact of the reins, he will just brace more or push harder against my hands. I do this mostly in walk and trot. With the canter, he is uphill and a lot softer in the bridle just because he's so uphill and the gait is easier for him, so its easier for me to sit back and ride it out. The downfall is that now when I try to sit back in the trot, he instantly thinks I want to canter and I have to struggle to keep him back or run in the trot.

Our ride last night took these pictures to another level and we managed to find a good balance between the give and take. It was easily our best trot work and I so wish I'd had someone there to video. The vet is coming out today on some barn calls, so I'm going to have him do another round of acupuncture on his hind end. I think it helped last time and he is definitely using it more, but he's still weak and more stiff on the right side. I am so ecstatic about his progress and still in disbelief really. Just the fact that I can now ride him without any additional aids is still hard to wrap my brain around, lol, but I am loving every minute of it!


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## carshon

and this because you are open minded and a great owner! You need to take credit for not giving up - for believing and seeing something in this horse. Those pics are fabulous and the extension is truly beautiful to see!


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## Tihannah

I think I rode Forrest maybe once early last week? But that was it because I kinda wanted him to be a clean slate for the trainer coming back this past weekend. 

Saturday?? Oh boy! Our sessions were originally set for 10am, but we had to reschedule for 4pm, which is turnout time. Forrest was totally checked out, and the only thing he could think about was going out to pasture. His stall buddy kept calling to him, so the trainer was having to repeatedly send him on because he would not bring his attention to him. After about the umpteenth time of being sent forward, Forrest was cantering around the round pen and suddenly decided to go for it and jumped out of the 5ft round pen!! He did not clear it, of course, as he was only a foot away when he decided to take it. Forrest went down and part of the pen went down with him. I was frozen in shock as my brain was trying to digest what had just happened. He groaned like "That was a bad idea", got up, and started slowly heading back to the barn before I could get up and go after him. He casually walked through the barn, out the other side, and went and stood waiting at the gate to his pasture.

I got his halter on and then checked him over. He was sore I'm sure, but I walked him back over to the round pen, and by the time we got there he was walking fine. The rest of the lesson went great, but I was so nervous he would try it again. Thankfully, he didn't. Crazy old man coulda killed himself!

Yesterday the trainer came again, same time, and of course, Forrest just wanted to be turned out. Instead of trying to escape, he decided that he knew what the trainer wanted, and would just take over the session, going through the motions of what he'd been taught the day before. This horse! So part of training is where he sends Forrest out for a few laps, then brings him back in, pats and praises him, then sends him out in the other direction again. Well, Forrest, trying to hurry things along, when asked to come in, would simply stop, change directions, then head the other way. He kept this up for a good 10 minutes until the trainer finally decided to stop sending him and just stand until Forrest knocked it off and decided to pay attention.

And it's funny because much of the stuff Forrest displayed on the ground, is exactly what he does in the saddle. The trainer said that Forrest is a very smart horse, but he's never really been asked to use his brain, so he's totally checked out, and this was very evident watching them work. He said the riders have always been doing his job for him - MAKING him stop, MAKING him go - without every really making him THINK about what it is you expect from him. He gets bored easily and then kinda tunes you out, and when that happens, he then tries to just take over the ride to hurry up and be done. I think this is why I have better rides with him when I incorporate small jumps. It gives him something to think about and brings his mind back to you.

Once he had Forrest's brain back on him, they focused a lot on releasing the brace and going through various exercises. First just on a rope, then halter, then with a saddle on his back, and with each exercise it got better and better. He taught Forrest what was acceptable and what was not. He saw that Forrest likes to plant his front feet and brace his shoulders, so you struggle getting the hind end to move. Once he removed the brace from his shoulders, then he could remove the brace from his hind, which in turn, removed the brace from his neck.

The things he saw in Forrest and the work he did with him was so eye opening. By the end of Sunday's session, Forrest came out of the round pen a different horse. He was obedient and attentive and soft when you asked him to move. I was able to stand there holding his lead rope and talk to the trainer for several minutes and he stood there quietly at my side. The horse I've known would've started grazing and pulling me all over the place.

The trainer said that since Forrest isn't a colt, that it would be okay for me to still ride him between sessions, as long as I continue to reinforce what he was learning. He gave me more tips on the take and release and little exercises to keep his mind engaged. He is coming out again next weekend and the plan is to ride him, so I'm really looking forward to it. I'm already seeing such a significant change in my horse that I don't doubt we are taking the right approach with him. 

Below are just a few pics from yesterday of my big Dutch WB all decked out in western gear!


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## egrogan

Yay!

But oh man- the image of him trying to jump out of the round pen made my stomach drop. I can't imagine how you were feeling!!

I love reading about your progress and approach. You give me a lot to think about in my interactions with Fizz too.


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## carshon

Love these posts! my hubby has the same "being too smart for their own good" horse. They are trying but the results are so rewarding!


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## Tihannah

carshon said:


> Love these posts! my hubby has the same "being too smart for their own good" horse. They are trying but the results are so rewarding!


It's fascinating to watch the change in his behavior from the beginning of the session to the end. You can see the change in his demeanor and focus. At the end, the trainer removed his saddle and the halter, yet Forrest still stayed at his shoulder as he moved around and talked to me.

The horse that has baffled everyone that's tried to work with him is being totally figured out by someone that's simply making him THINK and figure things out for himself.


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## Cherrij

What's with horses jumping out of things this weekend? :O Grand also got himself in a bit of a mess. 

It's fantastic to hear that Forrest seems to actually accept the chance of thinking and solving things.


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## Tihannah

I think I finally did it! I finally found a bit that Forrest likes!! Lol. He'd been doing well in the Nathe bit, but in one of our last rides I noticed that even though it was soft, he wasn't that comfortable in it. Turns out it was still too fat of a bit. He has a ridiculously fat tongue, fleshy lips, and low palette, so I decided to give it one last shot and ordered him the PeeWee bit. What I love about this bit is that even though it's thin, it's still a fairly mild bit, sits comfortably in his mouth, and yet I still have brakes and some control. I had very little brake in the Nathe and it would take everything I had to bring him back. It's not a dressage legal bit, but we are far from getting in the ring, so I'll worry about that another day! 

He was so much easier to communicate with in this bit. I could stay soft, yet give clear signals. He didn't overreact to half halts, yet when I asked him to come back, he responded well. The most telling was that it really promoted softening in the poll. Lately, it's taken me upwards of 30 minutes to convince him to give in his poll, and then I can only get it for a few strides at a time. With this bit, it took maybe 10 minutes. We even had some great moments at trot where he was soft in the poll and actually carrying himself and building consistency!

Our walk back to the barn was totally stretched down and relaxed and I praised him the entire way. Excited to ride again tomorrow!


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## carshon

These posts keep getting better and better! I have been toying with putting a new bit on Tillie - but I ride trails and she is very strong and tends to run through her bit - a bit that does not work sends shivers up my spine as I envision us running willie nillie down the trails back to the trailer! You have inspired me to keep trying though - I need her head to come down and to soften at the poll. I have tried my new bit at home - and maybe it is time for the trail test! 

Your posts are truly inspirational!


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## Tihannah

@carshon - I've tried A LOT of bits trying to make Forrest happy and less fussy in the bridle. The anatomy of his mouth has surely been an issue with him being sensitive and resistant to contact. On top of that, it's been impossible to find a bit that is mild, yet still gives me control. I've attached some pics as well as information on the bit if you're interested. Everything described in the bit was exactly what I needed for Forrest and he had no issue stretching down into it. It was much easier to control his shoulders and keep his neck straight in this as well, yet still be able to maintain soft hands. Forrest is a big, forward moving horse, so the ability to bring him back without getting strong is a big plus! I did a lot of research before buying and found a lot of different forum threads discussing and almost all responses from users were that this bit is brilliant, so I had to give it a try. Can't say I'm disappointed at all! 



> The Macs Equine Pee Wee Horse bit is revolutionary in design. Recommended and loved by legendary Australian horsemen Guy McLean and Steve Brady and are now used worldwide to great acclaim. The Pee Wee bit is unlike any other bit on the market. This bit is so comfortable and kind in the horse’s mouth it gives the horse freedom to learn in a painless way!
> 
> The three unique features of the Pee Wee Horse bit
> 
> 1. The Macs Equine Pee Wee bit is unique in that it is the only bit that has a floating mouth piece! This unique feature prevents the horse’s tongue being pinched against the teeth, as a result the horse does not learn to put its tongue over the bit. It also allows the horse to eat and drink freely as the horses tongue can move freely with the floating mouth piece.
> 
> 2. The Macs Equine Pee Wee bit has a thinner mouth piece which allows room in the horse’s mouth for both the mouth piece and the tongue, as research shows 80% of horses have low palates and the majority of traditional bits have thick mouth pieces which create constant bruising to the soft palate. The Pee Wee has a sweet iron mouth piece that stimulates saliva and prevents the horse’s mouth from drying out. Sweet iron also tastes great to a horse and promotes a pleasurable experience.
> 
> 3. The Pee Wee is the only bit on the market where the big rings do not contact the sensitive side of the horses face. The Pee wee eliminates the horses lips being forced against the teeth. In other bits the pinching causes the horse pain and results in the horse leaning on the bit and tossing its head to the side. The large rings of the Pee Wee fold back over the outside of the small side bars. These unique side bars keep the rings away from the lips. The side bars are strategically positioned just outside of the lower jaw and only contact the jaw when rein contact is given, giving a clear signal to the horse to move away from the pressure. The side bars are a revolutionary feature that creates a direct signal on the outside of the horses jaw and makes it easy for the horse to understand the command given.
> 
> The Pee Wee is light weight and has a passive action. When the signal is directed it comes from the outside of the lower jaw with a pressure that is easy for the horse to understand and move away from. With even pressure down onto the bars it encourages the horse to flex down at the pole, which means the horse is down over the bit and is in a better position to work rather than getting behind the bit and having its head in the air.
> 
> Smooth turns, better stops, happier horses that quickly understand what is being asked of them. No more bit sliding through the corners of the horse’s mouth as direct applied pressure comes from the side of the horses face.
> 
> The Pee Wee sits differently than any other bit. It requires you to lower your cheek straps a few holes when fitting up the bit to your existing bridle. There should only be a slight bulge and no wrinkles in the corner of the horse’s mouth. This is because the Pee Wees mouth piece sits further forward over the tongue and bars than conventional bits making it very comfortable for the horse.
> 
> The chin strap on the Pee wee bit is designed to hold the bit in place. It has NO curb action and puts no pressure on the chin.


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## RedDunPaint

I haven't been on here a whole lot recently, so when I read your last post I had to go back and read the last 10 pages of your journal to get caught up lol. The trainer that put a foundation on Tessa used Natural Horsemanship...however much of it wasn't applied correctly so we spent months after undoing it most of the habits she learned. But I really appreciate Buck Brannaman's training and his movie _Buck_ is one of my favorites! I am _so_ happy for all of the breakthroughs you've had with Forrest!

Something else you may try that I've had a breakthrough with: positive reinforcement/clicker training. I know it sounds kind of silly, but I used the clicker to train Tessa to do some tricks. And after seeing how much she enjoyed it and seeing her mind work to figure it all out without pressure, was astounding! When I praised her, she'd nicker and happily and eagerly try again. So I've started applying it to riding as well. Did she move forward off of just my seat? Click and reward. Next time, she's even more eager to respond. Tess has a past of becoming resistant and if you increase the aids, she just gets grouchier. So I've started rewarding things I've taken for granted (like having her turn off my seat or stop right when I ask) and it's been wonderful seeing the transformation! I also must say it's nice for me to have it to grab her attention. Nothing gets her attention quicker than the clicker! Yesterday I was riding bareback outside and some deer starting running by. I was totally expecting a spook, so once she stood still for a couple of seconds I clicked and rewarded. That told me she was with me mentally and also that she wasn't too nervous to eat, so she was fine! 


Looking forward to hearing more about your journey with Forrest! Again, so happy for you!


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## Tihannah

Oh, and I forgot that I had a short clip from our ride 2 weeks ago after his first session with the horsemanship trainer. It's nothing dramatic, but it was the first time I've ever been able to canter him without a martingale and he not be almost smacking me in the face and tossing his head around all crazy. I'm using to much inside rein and not enough outside rein to block his shoulder, but just the fact that he is relaxed and trying and looking like a normal horse was pretty phenomenal!


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## PoptartShop

YAYYY on finding a bit that he likes!!  That's awesome. So much positivity in this journal, I love it.  Can make a world of a difference, just by changing something so small!!


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## Tihannah

Got to ride Winnie again today. She is such a good teacher! She let's you get away with nothing! Lol. If you are not correct, it's very easy to lose control of her and she's a very forward and sensitive horse.

I gotta tell you, Helen pointed something out to me today and I felt so dumb! lol. She kept telling me that I needed to keep my legs on with Winnie because she's sensitive and kept speeding up on me. And I'm looking at her and going, "My legs are on!" cause I can feel her belly pressed to my calves. And that's when she told me... I swear, all this time, I NEVER knew that my legs were supposed to be on all the way down to my ankles and heels. ALL this time, I wondered how others could push their horses over so easily and I always struggled getting horses to move off my legs. She told me to wrap my legs around her barrel and keep my heels touching her sides. The leg position I've been fighting with for forever?? Suddenly fixed!! Lol. I felt like such an idiot! How come no one ever told me that?!?! Lol. I'd just press my calves against the horse and let my lower leg hang.

Anyhow, after that, we practiced sitting trot and leg yields and wow, Winnie is just so much fun. When you get it right, she's a dream to ride. It's so amazing to ride a horse where you can just concentrate on fixing yourself and then they come together nicely. Helen wants me to ride her more often, so I'm going to try and take advantage. I can learn so much from her.


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## DanteDressageNerd

This is great, don't say it's not a dramatic change when clearly it is! That's amazing! I'm so glad the natural horsemanship trainer is getting to him and has helped you SO much. People don't put enough into the value of natural horsemanship. I truly believe that's why I'm having so much trouble finding people who can ride Wonder because a lot of techniques taught in natural horsemanship are not taught in conventional riding. Like using energy and the mind to connect to the horse's mind. For example the trainer I work for has a mare named Gracie who she and I have no problem riding but anyone without a natural horsemanship background, regardless of skill cannot ride and that certain skill set I can't explain to anyone because it's a feel and something within the mind of the individual that the horse understands. And that skill set is VERY lacking in riders in Europe, it's interesting like trying to explain the color purple or orange to a blind person. It's a tough thing the transfer of energy or whatever it is that natural horsemanship teaches that is very lacking in traditional methods. It's interesting. But I'm glad you are learning it and Forrest is find himself through this work!


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## Tihannah

Well...I guess I have a big announcement to make...

Although, things have been getting better with Forrest and the horsemanship trainer, time is not on our side. The trainer is set to leave in less than 2 weeks to begin his, at least, year long internship working with some of the best horsemanship trainers in the country. Knowing this, I have been in turmoil about how to move forward with Forrest. He needs A LOT more sessions with this trainer, than he has time or I have money, to get him where he needs to be in such a short amount of time. So I kinda came to the realization that, though I love Forrest to death, I cannot get him where he needs to be. Not on my own, or with the type trainers I have available to me after the horsemanship guy leaves. So last weekend, I posted him in a large FB sale group.

I was instantly overwhelmed by people wanting him for their next big competition horse. All they could see was "Dutch WB", "jumper", his look, and the price and I was bombarded with messages. Apparently, it costs an arm and a leg for horses in the HJ world. :-/ After only 4 hours, I deleted the ad. It was just too much and these were not the kind of homes I wanted Forrest going to. He's in his late teens for pete's sake. I needed time to rethink how to advertise him. I'm still getting IM's from people...

After that, I called the horsemanship trainer to let him know my feelings and that I was canceling our sessions and going to try to find him a good home. And that's how it happened. The horsemanship trainer is buying Forrest and taking him with him as his personal horse to continue training for his internship. When they are done with the internship, Forrest will be his clinic horse and use him to teach others. He loves Forrest and said he would hate to see him end up in another bad situation and just keep getting sold on. He knows in his heart that he can transform him and give him the kind of life he needs and a forever home. And if I'm being honest, I don't think I could have found a better situation for Forrest. The trainer is going to be blogging every step of their journey, so I'll be able to keep tabs on him and watch his progress from afar. They leave town on the 16th and it is truly bitter sweet...

On another note, I signed the adoption paperwork on the TB last Thursday, and he will be arriving mid-July. The owner and I have been chatting through email every couple weeks for updates and though a friend and I have been scouring sale ads, my mind has always gone back to him. Conformation and pedigree wise, he is a fantastic horse and I have received nothing but great feedback from knowledgeable people I've sent him to. In addition, the owner tells me that he is such a sweet and easy going horse. "The perfect gentleman" are the words she used. And for this horse, I could not ask for a better situation as well. There is no "Buyer Beware" as he is not being sold to me. He is fully vetted and being given the best care as well as going through the let down process before he is shipped. If for some reason he does not work out or is not a good fit for me, she will take him back and find him a proper home. I have already spoken to a trainer friend who is willing to put the initial 30-60 days training on him for me to start him with a good foundation at half of what it would normally cost me. And Helen, of course, the TB guru, is excited to meet him and also help me develop him into my dream horse. 

I am still deciding on a name for the new horse, and of course, it may change once he gets here, but I am excited. Excited for both Forrest and the new horse. Meanwhile, I've got to figure out a way to keep myself "riding busy" until then. I guess I'll ride Winnie as much as I can. Anyhow, below are just a few of the pics I've received of the TB, some I've already posted. The one with the hat is from his birthday. He has such a sweet face!  He is still on stall rest from a small tendon injury, but will be turned out in a week or so and then she will send video.


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## knightrider

He surely does have a sweet face, and I wish you all the best!


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## Rainaisabelle

Is this the TB you sent me? He’s super cute!! Can’t wait to see your journey with him


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## Golden Horse

Sounds like everything is turning out like it supposed to, so glad to hear that Forrest is going to land softly and I'm sure he will enjoy his new life. Got any video of the new guy yet?


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## lostastirrup

That is a perfect situation for Forrest. I'm glad it worked out though I understand it is bitter sweet. Best of luck with the new green bean. TBs are kinda a blast.


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## Tazzie

Such a bittersweet post. I'm saddened you decided to sell, but I am so glad he'll have the perfect home. I know you put a lot of thought into this, and I know it'll all work out!

That boy is so handsome! I can't wait for the formal introductions!


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## carshon

Tina - I am sure this has been super hard for you. Once again I commend you for putting Forrest first. So many would see dollar signs and sell him to the first person that came along. I think Forrest is going to blossom with the trainer - and via BLOG you will still get to be a part of that. And your new TB is stunning.

Looking forward to a new journal with your new horse.


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## KigerQueen

will you be able to post a link to the blog as a last post or at least share them here? we will all love to keep tabs on him as well. Also cant wait for the new horse!


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## Fimargue

Very happy for you!! And Forrest that he is going to the trainer. Dying to see a video of this new boy. 
Is going to be such a change of having a horse you don't have to fight with over something that should be very simple. I'm having a bit of same problem now that contact is introduced and it's frustrating as hell. I just posted a video on the 'Dressage talk', you might get a kick out of it.


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## Tihannah

Fimargue said:


> Very happy for you!! And Forrest that he is going to the trainer. Dying to see a video of this new boy.
> Is going to be such a change of having a horse you don't have to fight with over something that should be very simple. I'm having a bit of same problem now that contact is introduced and it's frustrating as hell. I just posted a video on the 'Dressage talk', you might get a kick out of it.


I just watched it and YES, reminded me very much of Forrest. It's very hard to enjoy the ride when 9/10 are a struggle.  

I'm excited to be starting over with a clean slate and something that can be developed into any direction. The non-profit I'm getting him from is just amazing and I considered the option of waiting and maybe reaching out to them at a later time for something, but I feel like my chances would be slim that she would get another one in that would be as well bred with as good a conformation as him for dressage and eventing AND have a sweet temperament. She has 3 other horses up for adoption right now and they don't hold a candle to him build and conformation wise. When I told her what I was looking for and that I currently had a Dutch WB, she said, "I just got in the perfect match for you - built like a WB and stunning!" He has never even been listed on their site, so I feel really lucky, and am dying for video. Soon! Soon!

I received bad news on Forrest yesterday. The horsemanship trainer has backed out on the sale. :-( Said he spoke with his mentor, and though he wants him so bad, his mentor doesn't think it's a good idea to bring him on the road with him and that it'll be too much work. Even though that is supposed to be the focus of his training. It really ****ed me off cause he didn't even want to tell me. I found out through the friend that recommended him to me. She was ticked as well. So yea, that's done. 

BUT...there is another mutual trainer friend of ours that's interested in him and coming out this weekend to see him. I've talked to her extensively about him even before I decided to sell him, so she's aware of his quirks and has seen video. She owns a boarding barn right across the street from my friends property, so only an hour away. She's a very educated, talented rider who's competed up to PSG and enjoys a challenge and knows the importance of groundwork. I think she would be another great option for him.

If this doesn't work out, then Forrest will just stay with me until I can find a suitable home. I can't just sell him to anyone. I need 2 horses like I need a hole in the head, but the fact that I don't have to pay board for him will allow me more time to find the perfect situation.


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## KigerQueen

sounds crazy but what about training him to drive? he might be happier as a driving horse than a riding horse? maybe try your hand at combined driving since you will have two horses lol!


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## Tihannah

KigerQueen said:


> sounds crazy but what about training him to drive? he might be happier as a driving horse than a riding horse? maybe try your hand at combined driving since you will have two horses lol!


I have no interest in driving and don't know of anyone in my area that does driving.


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## Rainaisabelle

How are things going?


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## SketchyHorse

Haven't been on in awhile - sad to see you're selling Forrest, but I know you're doing what's best for both of you. I completely understand! 

Looking forward to following your continued adventures with your new horse


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## Tihannah

SketchyHorse said:


> Haven't been on in awhile - sad to see you're selling Forrest, but I know you're doing what's best for both of you. I completely understand!
> 
> Looking forward to following your continued adventures with your new horse


Thank you. Yes, it saddens me too, which is why I guess I haven't been real active about listing him. I posted him to one or two FB sites and haven't really followed up on it. I do have one lady that's local coming out to see him tomorrow. I think she could be a really good fit for him, so fingers crossed.

I rode him last week and we did a lot of lateral work and he was surprisingly good. We still ride with no additional aids and he's getting more and more relaxed, just still really far from what I would need to continue pursuing dressage. I don't think he would ever be happy as a dressage horse, so my goal is to find him someone doing things he can be happy with.

I took this short video at the end of our ride because I was just so impressed with how relaxed he was walking back to the barn. It took a long time to get here. 






On a side note, only 4 more weeks till the new guy arrives! I've already taken care of shipping arrangements and the barn director and I keep in regular touch.

On a personal note...things have NOT been good at my barn lately. There's been A LOT of drama and my happy place is not my happy place anymore. I've been going out only once a week cause I just can't take it. Riding is my therapy and the barn was my one stress free place where I could go to let everything else go. Now it's been compounding all the other stress and anxiety in my life. 

So...I've decided to not to ship the new horse there. Helen has already moved her horses to a new place and I've fallen in love with it. It's peaceful and quiet and the grass is incredibly lush and there are no more than 3 horses to a paddock. Our barn is overcrowded and there's barely enough grass for the horses. On top of that, we have wire fencing. My other 2 horses were both seniors and could care less when the other horse got rowdy. But I can't put a baby in that situation. He would get injured for sure, and I'm not willing to risk it. I have big plans for him.

I've been going over to ride Winnie and its so much fun. She's teaching me so much and my riding is improving every time I get on her. She's so funny cause on the ground, she acts like a fire breathing dragon- won't stand still, snorting and pacing and looking all around. The whole time you're tacking up, you're thinking, "This horse is gonna kill me." Lol. Literally until the moment you put your butt in the saddle! But the moment you get on, she's like "Okay, we're working," and it's all business. Lol. I was the first to ride her at the new place and I kept asking Helen if I was gonna survive. Helen assured me she would be fine and she was.

Helen is going to back the new horse for me and lay the foundation while I continue my education on Winnie. I think she's just as excited as I am about his arrival. I just hope everything works out with Forrest and we find him the kinda home he deserves.


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## PoptartShop

That's horrible he backed out. Ugh. But, he will go to a good home because I know you wouldn't allow him to go to a bad one. Exactly, not just anyone! It's a shame he didn't even tell you HIMSELF...like thanks a lot. 

Fingers crossed that the lady who comes today is a good match for him.  I understand why you are selling him and you have to do what is best. Please let us know how it goes.

& I understand totally about the barn drama...I had to leave the place I was at asap because it was getting so bad. I'm at a private barn now & it's a breath of fresh air, self-care but I am glad you found a new place.  It will be lovely! It's no fun when it's supposed to be a HAPPY, peaceful place & it just stresses you out. :sad: I totally get it. Ugh.

As for the new guy, how exciting.  These 4 weeks better fly by for you!! <3


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## KigerQueen

feel you on the barn drama. where i am at if you cause drama or what not you are out. we have a waiting list so you are replaceable if you can't behave. works for me as i keep to myself (a bit gun shy after soo much barn drama) and i have no issues. Hopefully the new place works out or the current place chills the flark out.


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## LoriF

Good luck with finding Forrest an awesome home and on your new horses as well. It's so hard when you want to do something particular and the horse isn't into it. I hope this new guy is what you are looking for. 

I hear you about people and their drama. As soon as people want to start stealing my joy, I'm out of there. I've lived and worked with so many different people from all walks of life most of my life and I'm very used to embracing different ways of being but I just turn my back on the drama if I can.


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## Tihannah

I just posted a very long, detailed update, and then my internet went out and I lost everything! :-( So frustrating!! This won't be quite as long...

It looks like the winds have changed again and Forrest might be staying with me. After a not so great visit from a potential buyer and not really knowing how to market him and not wanting to see him end up in the wrong home again, I offered him as a donation to a trainer friend that runs a non-profit therapy program. I thought this might be the best fit for him. She was shocked and came out today to see him. She brought 2 people with her - one who is also a trainer, but a student of hers.

I will call them Mary and Jane. Mary is the upper level trainer and one I spoke with. After a very thorough examination of Forrest, they watched him on the lunge, and then decided Jane would ride. I wish I had taken video, but I honestly expected the same disaster that has played out when everyone gets on him, despite their level of training or riding. I was dumbfounded. They totally pinpointed his issues and had him going beautifully.

Mary evaluated from the ground, and Jane rode and told her what she was feeling. Mary said, "It's not his hind. It's coming from the front. Try this." and that's when she saw it. She said he was using his head and neck to block his withers. She instructed Jane how to work through unblocking the withers and before I knew it, Forrest was looking like a normal horse more and more. He was even stretching down into the contact! And they got him going lovely in walk trot canter in both directions. It was so incredible that I was choking back tears because I'd never seen him go that well. And at one point, Mary looked back at me and said, "He can't be your dressage horse because why??" In 25 minutes, they'd accomplished more with him than anyone, including myself, has in the past year, and they didn't need any aids to do it.

Afterwards, Mary sat down with me and basically told me I was crazy to give this horse away. She said he had not one, not two, but THREE great gaits, he was sound, he was healthy, his temperament was amazing, and once his issues were straightened out, dressage would be easy for him. She said he was WAY too nice to be a therapy horse and if I really wanted her to take him, she would put 90 days on him and flip him for $10K easy. Instead, she wants me to keep him, send him to her for 30 days, let them fix him and then teach me how to properly ride him. She thought he was super smart and picked up on what they were teaching him really fast. They both felt that somewhere in his past, someone had taught him properly, but it got lost between all the bad years. She is confident that in 30 days with them, I would see a totally different horse, and I believe her after what I saw today. They both had such a great eye and saw so many of the technical things that others have overlooked about him.

So now, with less than 2 weeks before the new horse arrives, I am in utter turmoil about keeping him. Mary is adamant that it is not too late for him and he has a lot of years left. The new horse is young and will need time to grow and develop properly, and in the meantime, I can do what I always wanted to do with Forrest. The thought of having 2 horses worries me, but my guy is an enabler and telling me we can do it, since I don't pay board for Forrest and the new place that the other horse will be at is pretty darn cheap ($250/month stall board). Of course, for me, I still think 2X the Vet, Farrier, Feed and Tack. I told her to give me some time to think about it and I would let her know...

I'm kinda leaning toward naming the new horse River. Forrest and River? ;-)


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## LoriF

Wow!! What a turn of events. I really do hope that you keep him but would understand if you can't. Go Forrest!!!!!


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## carshon

Wow! just Wow! Good for you and good for Forrest - it seems the stars are telling you that he is supposed to be with you. How awesome that this trainer sees so much in him.


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## PoptartShop

Wow, that is amazing.  Who knew?!!! I am so glad they came and this happened. I think keeping him is a great idea - you will learn a lot, it sounds like the trainer really knows her stuff & can teach you.

With the new horse, yes, it may be an adjustment (having two!) but you can do it. It will be good to work with two horses - you will gain more knowledge & it will be a great experience for you. This stuff doesn't happen often, I am so happy Forrest has this potential & you better keep him!!!!!!!!!! LOL. :lol:
You may have to budget better with two horses, but...other than that...GO FOR IT!!!!!!!!

As for the name River, yes, Forrest & River sound great together. :smile: YAY!!!


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## egrogan

What an exciting update! Hope the time with the trainer goes just as well. Please keep us posted.


In high school, I actually knew a guy named "Forrest Rivers" :wink:


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## knightrider

What wonderful news! I hope so much that it all works out and you can keep both of them. Think how much you will learn, working with two different kinds of training!


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## KigerQueen

this is amazing news! let them do 30 days. if they cant fix him go from there but worth a shot right? sometimes it dose take two people to train a horse and it seams like they have what they need to get him going!

i like River. and nothing wrong with having multiple horses. when one is down or needs a brake there is another waiting to ride. and when forest is mostly done being your dressage horse he will be rivers friend and your trail buddy.


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## lostastirrup

That is such a relief, 

I'm glad you've found someone to work out his issues, old and green is a bit difficult, and takes some creative thinking and finesse. You'll learn a lot from these ladies, I think it has a lot to do with what @DanteDressageNerd calls "riding with your mind" it's feel, but it's also something more. 

Also. I really think it's a good idea to have two horses (and matching bays at that!) For the sole reason it makes for excellent Christmas photos. And who knows, maybe it will work out that with 2 horses you'll have something for your DH to ride.


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## DanteDressageNerd

I think so. Mindful riding is something not really taught in Europe, they tend to treat the horse almost like a machine and expect the horse to obey a certain system and won't adjust for "unconventional" horses. Their systems aren't designed for it, so horses they write off often get discarded :-( 

I hope these ladies can help you with Forrest and when he's "fixed" hopefully it will help you make your decision on what to do with Forrest and River. And which one you will be keeping and perhaps flip the other. I wish you a lot of luck with this, I know how hard it is to have two when you CANT afford it. My mare STILL hasnt sold in FL. I hope you have more success than myself with getting a horse sold when you make a decisions!


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## Tihannah

Just wanted to post a quick update to let everyone know that I came to decision about Forrest after talking it through with my guy and some close friends. I have decided to donate him to the therapy group and we will be hauling him over by the weekend.

The heart side of me wants to keep him, put him in training for 30 days, and see what happens. But the practical/logical side of me is weighing everything else. I still have a new horse coming that will need 30-60 days training. They would be at separate barns, so I will have to buy all new stall stuff for the new horse - mats, buckets, fan, etc. And then tack. Forrest is a BIG boy, so I'm imagining I'll need a new saddle, boots, etc for the new horse. Then there's just the basic stuff - vet care, farrier, feed, and supplements (the new guy will likely need at least front shoes). 

I've been asking myself if I will be able to provide the level of care to both that I do for one horse - chiropractor when needed and any other special treatments. Will it restrict me from getting to do clinics and lessons because I'm strapped managing their care? I simply don't want to be one of those people that took on too many horses and they ended up suffering because of it.

On the other side of it, and I've mentioned this before, is that things just aren't great at my barn. If I kept Forrest, I would have to keep him there, and honestly, I don't really enjoy going out there anymore. It either stresses me out and gives me anxiety or makes me angry about the things I hear and see. Last night after work, I went to the new place and just hung out with Helen while she was giving a lesson. It was SOO nice and peaceful out there. The owner could not be nicer or more accommodating and does his best to provide whatever we need and keep the place in top shape. I honestly can't wait to make it our new home.

As far as Forrest, I honestly don't think I could find a better situation for him. The day after she came to see him, the trainer text me again to let me know that she would never actually sell Forrest. That he would stay with them, be re-trained, become a great therapy/lesson horse, and be well cared for and loved. She just wanted me to know that she thought he was a great horse and that he still had the potential to be what I wanted him to be. I really appreciated that. I honestly think he deserves an easy life as a therapy horse though, and he won't be far, and I can go see him whenever I want.

So yea, I guess that's it. And despite my stupid mistakes with him in the past year, I think he knows how much I loved him and tried to give him a better life situation than what he had before. He's a really special horse that deserves the best and I think he will definitely steal some hearts in his new role in life.


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## PoptartShop

I am glad you have thought about it thoroughly instead of deciding quickly on what to do with Forrest.
At the end of the day, it is your choice & you made the right decision for what is best for BOTH of you (and your wallet lol).

I think he will enjoy his new role as well.  And you can always visit him. 

I don't blame you; barn drama/stress is NOT good for anyone. You don't need to deal with that. It should be a happy place, which is why I am glad you have the new place.

Since she won't be selling him either, I think this couldn't have worked out any better. 

So exciting!!


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## DanteDressageNerd

I'm happy for your conscience that you found the right situation for Forrest! I hope he is happy there and you are happy with River!

I'm also really glad you found a much happier place for your to be at and feel at ease in your life without feeling stressed or experience unnecessary drama. I am hoping you have a great time at the new barn and your new horse is happy there with you!


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## Tihannah

They picked Forrest up on Friday after work. I gave him a quick bath and grooming ad got all of his things ready. He didn't want to get on a the trailer, so it took several of us to coax him on. It was a quick goodbye. They wasted no time loading him up. I held back the tears. I know he's going to a great home and will be well taken care of and I can go visit him whenever I want. The trainer's husband is a photographer and showed up to document everything. He said they were going to make a video of his journey and progress through training to share with me. As soon as he got there, they sent a video of him being turned out in a round pen and rolling of course.  Yesterday they turned him out with other horses and said he acted like he'd been there his whole life. That's my boy. I miss him already. :-(

After he left, I instructed the barn workers to strip his stall so I could remove the mats and started moving some of my things to the new barn. I started to feel a panic set in. My horse was gone and I was leaving my barn of 3 years. It all felt so strange. The BO wasn't there, but I'd let her know that Forrest was leaving and that my new horse was going to the new barn. She responded with an odd emoji face. That's it. I haven't seen or spoken to her since. Yesterday, Helen helped me load my stall mats and trunk into her truck and we moved it as well.

The whole situation is just awkward and bad. There's so much resentment and animosity between people that it's just uncomfortable and I keep being put into the middle of things that I don't want to be involved in, so I think this move is really good for me. I don't really have the support and encouragement at my barn that I once had. With the exception of Helen, I have more or less been flying on my own since before Tess left. With her gone, and a new horse coming, I just don't see how I can continue to learn and grow in the current environment. People are so petty towards each other and always looking for something negative and that's not why I ride.

Yesterday, my guy and I spent all day running around getting things ready for the new horse. Then we met up with Helen at the new place, got his stall all set up and ready, and then Helen and I rode together. I rode Winnie and got to try a Black Country saddle that Helen had on trial. She has a great relationship with the rep and currently has 4 demo saddles from her! The minute I sat in the saddle, I couldn't believe the difference! My upper body was SOOO much better, and without effort. I wasn't struggling to sit back anymore. Apparently, my saddle was the problem the whole time. So today, I am going to list it for sale so I can purchase a new one.

The ride on Winnie was great. She's just a fantastic teacher and really teaches you self awareness. I'm having to undo a lot of bad habits from riding Forrest, like keeping my reins too long, and re-establishing real contact. She doesn't give you anything easily, so you really have to stay on your toes. I will be riding her a lot more as Helen works with the new horse for me. I haven't yet decided on a name for him. I have one that is at the top of my list (not River), but I want to wait till he gets here and see what fits him and his personality. I'm a big fan of Game of Thrones, so it is something I pulled from the series.  I want him to have a fancy, dressage-type name for shows. His race name is Double Booked, so we've just been referring to him as DB.

Anyhow, he is being picked up at 7am on Tuesday and should hopefully arrive around noon or so. I am taking off work Tuesday and Wednesday to get him settled in. I'm super anxious right now and can't wait to finally see him in person. Everything is ready and just waiting for him.


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## DanteDressageNerd

I'm so happy you're getting out of there. I hope you are much happier in your new situation and with your new horse. I'll be curious to learn what his new name is when the time comes! Your BO sounds incredibly immature and that is an honest shame :-(

But you'll have to let us know how everything is with the new guy once he comes and how Forrest settles in to his next situation. It sounds like it is for the best and you will have peace of mind knowing he is well cared for and in a psychologically healthy environment!


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## carshon

happy and sad post - glad that Forrest is entering a new chapter in his life with owners that understand his story and want to work with him to bring him to his full potential. Sad that you had to leave a barn after so long and happy that your new horse arrives soon to start the next chapter of his stroy


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## PoptartShop

I just wrote a long response & it didn't work...ugh.

Let's try this again. :lol:

Awww. I know it was hard to see Forrest going on the trailer. Holding back the tears was probably so hard to do. :sad: But, you did the right thing. It's great they are already sending you videos, & that you can see him whenever. He will be well taken care of.  That's so nice they are going to make a video of his progress, too. They sound like such nice people who have hearts.

As for leaving the old barn, that's definitely bittersweet. I know it probably feels weird. Felt weird leaving my old place too, but once I did I never looked back! You will miss the memories (only the good!) & change is hard to adjust to, but you WON'T miss the drama, or going to the barn & leaving all stressed out. The new place will be your HAPPY place. Finally!! As it should be. 

Everything is happening all at once, but ALL GOOD THINGS!!

EEEK! Tomorrow is the day!! Keep us posted, & I am sooo happy for you. That's great you have everything ready for him prior to his arrival. Yay!!  So exciting. I can't wait to see pictures of the new boy. <3


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## Tihannah

I have been having the absolute worst day ever. The shipper called this morning and asked to postpone till Wednesday on the new horse. He wants to make extra money on another horse going the same route but they won't be ready till Wednesday. So I had to change my work schedule and days off and make sure it was okay with them that he be picked up a day late. I am super annoyed right now on top of everything else going on with work and the barn. Just trying to relax and breathe right now...


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## carshon

take a deep breath. It will work out - sorry the old barn drama still has an effect on you.


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## carshon

take a deep breath. It will work out - sorry the old barn drama still has an effect on you.


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## Golden Horse

Relax and breathe, relax and breathe......I totally understand the frustration, but if there is nothing you can do to alter the situation, then it is wasted energy....took me darn near 60 years to work that one out....but really it does help....


Look to the future, DB your blank page to color in as you want....you are going to have a great journey.


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## PoptartShop

Aww man. :sad: I know that was disappointing. Ugh. Plus you had everything all prepared like your work schedule etc. I hope tomorrow works out & they get it together. :icon_rolleyes: I'd be frustrated too!!!!


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## Tihannah

He's finally here!! And he is everything she said. I can't even believe it. When I first contacted her, I told her about Forrest being a Dutch WB and my love for bays. She said she had just gotten in the perfect horse for me and she wasn't kidding.

He was scheduled to arrive at 3:30pm, and of course, at 3pm, the skies opened up and the downpour was just crazy. I was for sure they would be delayed, but he pulled up at exactly 3:30 as promised. Poor baby slipped coming off the trailer, but as soon as he stepped off, he was calm and just looking around. I put him in his stall and let him relax and eat since he'd been on the road all day. The hauler handed over his paperwork and not only did she take care of his letdown, entire rehab, x-rays and vet bills from the tendon tear, but also had the dentist out to do his teeth, and chiropractor to have him adjusted. I feel so incredibly lucky to have had the opportunity to ADOPT a horse that came from such a well cared for environment.

Helen and another friend came out and we spent the afternoon just hanging out with him. For a 3yr OTTB, I felt like I hit gold. We don't have crossties at the new barn. It's mostly western riders, so there's just a bar to tie your horse to. I tied him in a quick release knot and he just stood there in the barn aisle, surrounded by all new horses and people, and let me groom him, pick his feet, snap pics, try saddles on him, etc. We gave him hugs and rubs and kisses and he just took it all in. Occasionally, he'd perk his ears and look at something, but that was it. Just the perfect gentleman. I literally can't wait to head out early morning to see him again. It rained the entire time, so I didn't get to walk the property with him.

Annnd...I decided on a name. My obsession with Game of Thrones won over. My favorite character in the show is Jon Snow, but I don't know, would it be weird to name a horse Jon Snow? Lol. Anyhow, Jon Snow, at some point, is crowned "King in the North". So after consultation with several friends and my guy, who loved it. His show name will be King in the North, and his barn name is simply North.  Below is the video clip of him coming off the trailer today. Hopefully it won't be raining tomorrow and I can get some better pics and video of him. 

P.S. I wuv his big baby ears!


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## KigerQueen

I cant wait to hear more about North and your journey with him!


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## PoptartShop

My goodness is he handsome! :O Wow! I am sure you are ecstatic!!!   SOOOOO happy for you. I love his name, too.

I love his ears too, how adorable! 

Sucks it was a rainy day, but who cares because now he is here!!!!!!!!! I cannot wait to hear about him! His personality & everything!


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## jaydee

This Journal has been closed at the request of the owner


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