# Overcoming new obsticles



## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

When I had my loan pony, I would make him carry on and we would fight occasionally but not very often but only once did I ever retreat and that was because we were on a busy road with lorries going past so it was too dangerous to keep going and we would have been hurt. I have gotten off on occasion and lead him past objects again when it was too dangerous for me to stay on because of traffic or other people. I found though the best way was to get someone to walk out with me so he could see that these things were actually safe. When we would canter there were two logs at the end, he wouldn't jump them at first so I kept repeating the exercise over and over uptil he was jumping both and loving it and he never refused another jump on that hack except one that was too big for him which was my fault.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

It actually depends on horse. 

With my qh I let her smell it and ask her to go forward. If she shy away I turn her back and ask her to go forward again. If it's TOO bad I'll get off and walk her close and let her explore the obstacle all over. 

With my paint if she doesn't make it on first attempt I get off and walk her through.

I know some people think getting off means horse won, but I totally disagree with that. I rather hand walk them back and forth couple times, then get on, cross it and go as nothing happen then fight with them running them scary and mad. IMO it's what called "outsmart" the horse.


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

I agree it depends on the horse since with him if he'd been allowed to go away then he would really take the mickey since he was intelligent and would use the time to think up ways of not doing it but when I moved onto my next loan who was an ex racer and still a youngster fighting with him wasn't a good idea because he would panic, it was nice and easy with him because he was still young and learning how to be a normal ridden horse rather than a racer.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Horses are expensive to keep. I spend about $5000 per year keeping my boy. It costs the same to keep a good one as a bad one. Sorry why mess with all the screwed up horses and just get a good one, sell the bad ones and be done with it.
I choose a horse carefully since I am going to put my heart and soul into him. I actually hobble a horse right in front of the owner with his/her permission of course to get an idea of the fight in the horse. I also blind fold him to see his reaction.
I only choose stallions which will be cut the next day, no mares.
I want a brave horse, I want a male and I don't want one that will fight until it destroys itself.
I do fight a few battles but they make the horse. A battle fought and won by me strengthens my control over him. In any horse's training I run into at least 2 good fights and I am not talking about his initial breaking, that might of might not happen.
Those 2 major fights come after training and can be as much as 6 months into the future but we will fight them sometime.
One is the puddle that represents everything else we run into but the worst fight , the one where it can really take more time comes with the side pass. The stupid side pass, something I can teach any horse in a few days. A simple side pass to the left and right, on command and done correctly.
The fight every time comes later in his refining when I ask him to sidepass over obsicles, obsicles that he walks over without the slightest fear or hesitation. It will come, it always does, I always win and in the end he does what he was told to do but it involves a fight.
From then on he is made for sidepassing, he will not refuse again.
So the puddle and the side pass are the 2 major things I have to deal with somewhere down the line, I will not sidestep them, don't look forward to them but after that the horse doesn't refuse again.
For those that think I rule with fear haven't seen my guy following me around like a lost puppy dog:lol:


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

In some cases if the footing is treacherous I get off because I don't want to fight my horse and end up killed. Most of the other time I give them a little time to look and keep the pressure on them to move forward and each time they get through something they are a little bit faster to go through the next thing.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> In some cases if the footing is treacherous I get off because I don't want to fight my horse and end up killed. Most of the other time I give them a little time to look and keep the pressure on them to move forward and each time they get through something they are a little bit faster to go through the next thing.


My fights are picked. The puddle was a nice big round one in the bush and I decided today was the time to settle the puddle issue, I picked the time and just told him to walk through it, he said no and after about 5 minutes of disagreeing he walked through it. Did it 2 more time and that was the end of it ever again. The puddle only represented all the future times I would tell him to move forward.
The sidepassing?? I picked the time, the footing, the place to fight that fight. He gave me just as much trouble if not more then the puddle but in the end he did sidepass over the obsticle and did it for the next couple of weeks over everything I could find. He is dead broke to side pass when ever and whatever I choose.
He is new broke, about 13 months but in the last 8 months or so he has refused nothing and I do run into scary things, planed things or suprises he handles them all. NOt just him but everything else I have owned.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

I never 'fight' the horse. 

#1 - they outweigh me, by about 10 times

#2 - as a fight or flight animal - instinct is going to kick in before they 'give' in. 

#3 - I want the experience to be positive.

Boils down to respect and trust.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

mls said:


> #3 - I want the experience to be positive.


Absolutely agree. They are much more willing to deal with the even more scary things if the 1st one was positive and easy on them.


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

You do make a lot of sense. The ex racer didn't have a good foundation into his riding career so he was very hard to ride as he didn't bend well and wasn't too comfy to ride out. Luckily I was able to back away and say that he needed someone who was more experienced than I was.
I don't fight with a horse to the point where I'm beating it, I just don't back down and the horse has trust in me that I know what I'm doing.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

mls said:


> I never 'fight' the horse.
> 
> #1 - they outweigh me, by about 10 times
> 
> ...


They may outweigh me but I use my brain instead of brawn. Weight really means nothing.

I don't beleive the flight thing. Alot of horses don't seem to be afraid of much.

The positive experience I want is for him to realize I am his master.

Respect and trust?? He respects me and will follow me anywhere. again like the lost puppy that comes running the minute he hears my car.
You've got the wrong idea of what builds respect and trust


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> Absolutely agree. They are much more willing to deal with the even more scary things if the 1st one was positive and easy on them.


I repeat. There is nothing that I know of that will stop my horse. He will move forward over, under or past anything I ask him to.
Last week I went into a big farm yard and I found 1000's of tires spread all over a large section, they were getting ready to cover the pits where silage is kept. It was scary having the ground covered with all those tires. Rio walked without fear, without undo concern through them with hardly a grance.
He is fearless, the ones before him were fearless and every single one of them fought me at one time or other.
It's like 2 horses in a herd fighting for dominacy. One beats the other and becomes leader and the other horse falls into line. He respects the superior horse. The stronger one anyway.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Lis said:


> I don't fight with a horse to the point where I'm beating it, I just don't back down and the horse has trust in me that I know what I'm doing.


I never carry a whip or have one available. I am no good with them anyway but I do wear spurs as do the majority of people in higher disciplines. I do ride with a mild snaffle bit with extremely light hands but I do not back down, the horse never wins and I will not tip toe around an issue.
I am a strong rider and have years , decades of experience so what I do works for me and probably doesn't for most.


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

I agree with you, I do carry a whip mainly because where I hack you can come across some right weirdos so it helps to have something to hand but also because a tap with the whip is like a tap with spurs. I've also rode in a snaffle except one but that was at a riding school and I was taught that if you let a horse get away with something or back down then you're setting yourself up for trouble. That's how I was taught and it works, George trusted me 100% and would only be trouble if it was something that he'd never seen or traffic that got too close and too fast.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Rearing?? Babies all do it, older horses do it too while playing. Rearing is part of their makeup. They do it to escape work. We ask something of them that they don't want to do and they rear??
So what is the big deal?? It isn't hard to ride out and if it gets them nowhere they eventually quit using it as a defense mechanizm??
All my boys rear in the first few months but never for long. It doesn't upset me, doesn't intimidate me so it becomes a useless tool to the horse and they stop using it.
As for poor fitting tack, poor teeth etc etc. I feel you are just making excuses for a situation you can't handle


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Um, question for you Riosdad, did you want people to tell you what they do for training or did you just want to be able to tell everyone how they suck and are wrong?

I think several people have truly answered your original question and then you pounced on them.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Lis said:


> I agree with you, I do carry a whip mainly because where I hack you can come across some right weirdos so it helps to have something to hand but also because a tap with the whip is like a tap with spurs. I've also rode in a snaffle except one but that was at a riding school and I was taught that if you let a horse get away with something or back down then you're setting yourself up for trouble. That's how I was taught and it works, George trusted me 100% and would only be trouble if it was something that he'd never seen or traffic that got too close and too fast.


The problem with a whip is it is in one hand. You are holding a rein in either hand trying to steady the horse and at the same time trying to flick your wrist to get him to move foreward. Where with a pair of spurs you can bump him while steadying him with your hands.
I also ride alot with my legs and half passing on the trail is done all the time to avoid sticks or burrs and a light touch of the leg gets him moving over quickly and freely.
I use dressage spurs, not western spurs. I hate the wheel and the noise they make while walking. I also use a strap under the boot and one over the boot to keep the spurs quiet on my feet.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

RiosDad said:


> They may outweigh me but I use my brain instead of brawn. Weight really means nothing.
> 
> I don't beleive the flight thing. Alot of horses don't seem to be afraid of much.
> 
> ...


Yes - I use my brain - therefore I do not need to fight on anything.

When you break their spirit - you are right - they aren't afraid of much.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

RiosDad said:


> I repeat. There is nothing that I know of that will stop my horse. He will move forward over, under or past anything I ask him to.


RD, I was not arguing with you on that. Lol! My point is if you beat totally scared horse into something it won't do any good. I've seen people doing that and the end result was not positive at all.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

RiosDad said:


> *They do it to escape work.* We ask something of them that they don't want to do and they rear??


In fact I totally disagree with that. With some horses (especially habitual rearers) yes, with some rearing is reaction to the fear. They are not trying to escape *work *, they are just scared to death (I run into couple horses like that). That's when I rather prefer to get off and help them to go over. Not to FORCE them to go over.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Alwaysbehind said:


> Um, question for you Riosdad, did you want people to tell you what they do for training or did you just want to be able to tell everyone how they suck and are wrong?
> 
> I think several people have truly answered your original question and then you pounced on them.


I have been around a long long time. I am old, have seen hundreds of people in various boarding facilities . I know how most think, how most handle their horse and truely most of them suck.
I feel and again this is with experince that pussy footing around an issue is NOT the way to do things. 
I am giving you my opinion, my proven way of doing things to make a solid good horse. What you do with it is up to you.
Two years ago this April I had the privilege of putting my method against a well know HORSE WHISPER as they called him. He had a 6 year old family pet against my 5 year old unhandled bronc. A really bad ***.
The Horse whisper charged $3000 for the 3 months and well there was me making nothing. Everyone thought the $3000 job was going to come back a work of art, everyone just wished they could have a horse trained by him.
In the meantime I had this broncy horse that bucked me off half the time, ran through fences, was just plain bad and most in the barn helped me at one time or other just get on him, he needed his head held down to just mount, I would get set and then off we went running miles of country.
At the end of 3 months the big day came.
My guy was steady at this point, sidepassing, new his leads, rock steady around traffic and had about 600 or 700 miles on him. Hobbled, ground tied and just a nice caracter to be around.
The $3000 job came home, we all waited with anticipation for the big show.. He promply bucked his owner off, she was taken away by ambulance and we saw very little of her for the next year. I moved away but the last I heard she still wasn't riding the horse.
It was a big joke at the barn after that.
His student broke one other of our horses. 32 times on the horse and they still weren't pulling a rein??? Don't want to use force:lol:

Summary.. Force is required to make a good stable reliable bombproof horse.

I sure would like to know what all that twirling of a lead rope is all about whenever the above mentioned lady handled her horse?????


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## SmoothTrails (Oct 1, 2009)

the real question is could anyone else ride that horse that you trained? I've seen where horses trained like that are wonderful for any extremely confident rider, but could someone at a lower level than you ride that horse without having to go through all of that all over again?


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> RD, I was not arguing with you on that. Lol! My point is if you beat totally scared horse into something it won't do any good. I've seen people doing that and the end result was not positive at all.


Why is it that my horses set the standard where ever they board?? It is not fear, they show no fear and come running the minute my truck or car pulls in the driveway. I feel guilty if I don't go immediatley to them??
Totally scared?? I pick candidates that are mentally stable and won't waste money on one that is not. I will not buy a broke horse or one that has been started by anyone else.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

I miss where I said anything about one style of training over another.

I asked a simple question. It seems you answered it though. You started your thread just so you can pummel everyone.


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## dacer44 (Sep 20, 2009)

Seems to me like you just want to tell everyone else how wrong and stupid they are. Almost like you posted this just looking for a fight. The thread you posted was about "methods people used for overcoming obstacle". Maybe you should have named it, "agree with me or else I fight you and make fun of you".

I'm not saying your methods are wrong or even saying anything about your methods. I just don't think you should attack everyone who has a slightly different opinion than you.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

SmoothTrails said:


> the real question is could anyone else ride that horse that you trained? I've seen where horses trained like that are wonderful for any extremely confident rider, but could someone at a lower level than you ride that horse without having to go through all of that all over again?


 
That I don't know. I will not let anyone on him for years. To me a horse is very private and I will let no one on him. My last guy who had 2 years on him was leaving a barn and I asked the owner lady to give him a try. She found him so light and responsive around the yard but that is the extent of me letting anyone ride any of my babies.
My old endurance horse of 17 years became the loaner horse and everyone from 8 to 80 borrows and rides him. Even a mentally challenged lady uses him, leaving him someplace and walks home to tell us how well it is going but forgets to bring him back:lol::lol:
No I will not loan my horse.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

RiosDad said:


> Why is it that my horses set the standard where ever they board?? It is not fear, they show no fear and come running the minute my truck or car pulls in the driveway. I feel guilty if I don't go immediatley to them??
> Totally scared?? I pick candidates that are mentally stable and won't waste money on one that is not. I will not buy a broke horse or one that has been started by anyone else.


RD, your answers sound like you think people here are trying to offend you or pick on your methods.  My understanding is we just share what we do "to overcome the obstacles". One can agree with each other method or not, but noone is trying to attack here.


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## SmoothTrails (Oct 1, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> That I don't know. I will not let anyone on him for years. To me a horse is very private and I will let no one on him. My last guy who had 2 years on him was leaving a barn and I asked the owner lady to give him a try. She found him so light and responsive around the yard but that is the extent of me letting anyone ride any of my babies.
> My old endurance horse of 17 years became the loaner horse and everyone from 8 to 80 borrows and rides him. Even a mentally challenged lady uses him, leaving him someplace and walks home to tell us how well it is going but forgets to bring him back:lol::lol:
> No I will not loan my horse.


I understand that....I'm feeling realy bad about having to have sold mine since I was his only rider from the time he was 2 until he was 11. His new owner is having issues, but I think that it mostly has to do with her being scared to discipline him :-| He was used to being told quickly if he did something wrong. I actually pretty much agree with your way of training, but I was wondering that because it takes a very confident rider to ride many of the horses that I have seen trained in your manner, and in other methods I have seen that they seem to be easier for less confident/experienced riders sooner.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

dacer44 said:


> Seems to me like you just want to tell everyone else how wrong and stupid they are. Almost like you posted this just looking for a fight. The thread you posted was about "methods people used for overcoming obstacle". Maybe you should have named it, "agree with me or else I fight you and make fun of you".
> 
> I'm not saying your methods are wrong or even saying anything about your methods. I just don't think you should attack everyone who has a slightly different opinion than you.


This stems from the puddle post. Since that was not my post I didn't want to take it over. This retreat, advance, retreat, walk through the water etc etc is just not going to get the results you want. Sure you might get him through the puddle eventually but what does it do for future puddles?? for future absticles like wooden narrow pedestrian bridges?? Everything becomes a puddle, another thing to train the horse at. I beleive in fighting it out ONCE and then it is over , done with.
This doesn't make scared frightened horses. If it does the horse is weak anyway and I wouldn't put time or money into him. His basic caracter must be bolt, outgoing and not resistive.
Older horses should have it all together, know and do just about anything, lead anywhere and yet I find my 1 month into training guy seemingly is more stable, more outgoing then the 20 year olds???
This is not right. A 20 year old that doesn't know leads? Doesn't know sidepassing??? The list can go on and on. I expect this in the first year?


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> RD, your answers sound like you think people here are trying to offend you or pick on your methods.  My understanding is we just share what we do "to overcome the obstacles". One can agree with each other method or not, but noone is trying to attack here.


From 50 plus years of riding with people, from 25 years of endurance riding I have learned that the majority of people are too soft when it comes to dealing with horses. They tip toe around things, are afraid of upsetting the horses but in the end most come to me to help them out with a problem and I end up riding their horses to fix something.
I see problems from other boarders in a large barn that could be fixed in seconds if they just knew what they are doing.
I am just giving my way of doing things, it works, the horse turn out fantastic and bold, outgoing and confident.
If the rider is timid the horse is timid. A confident strong rider gets a confident strong horse. Horses take on the personalities of their riders.


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

I think this would have been a great thread if we didn't get into the right/wrong approach. I just want to point out that force doesn't mean the same thing to everyone. To one person, it can be breaking their spirit, to another, it simply means it's your way or the highway. Just like some people ride with whips and spurs, and others think it's abuse.

Me personally, my mare is such a character, and I'm sure not everyone agrees, but she "fakes" fear all the time. You can really tell if they are being difficult, just don't want to do it, or are actually terrified. Ricci is terrified of the trailer, so while working with her around the trailer, it's a very calm, very positive experience. If we're on a ride and she decides she's done and tries to go home, the ends of my reins meet her *** and we go, no ifs, ands, or buts. Sometimes, she's just being stupid, and it only takes a firm, "Ricci, knock it off!" for her to remember she has a brain. As far as coming across new obstacles, I don't think it's bad to get off and introduce a horse to a scary rock or bush or whatever, as long as you get back on and ride past it at least twice, and from both directions. Gracie, my yearling, I have no idea what will happen with her. She's stubborn, probably the most stubborn horse I've come across, and she is so smart, but she is also fearless. I've seen her not even blink at things that more or less scare most any other horse. She may require a little more force and dominance in our relationship than I need in Ricci's. Ricci and I are partners. I call the shots, but for the most part, we work together, and we handle things in a way that's good for both of us. Gracie is going to have to realize I'm boss, all the time, anywhere.

It is my personal belief that RiosDad seeks to challenge your methods, which in itself is a good thing. I think it comes across more attacking than he means. I'm not defending him, I'm just saying, there's nothing wrong with viewing your strategy from all angles and compare. =]

PS. RiosDad, just because you think "most people you've come across" are too whatever, doesn't mean we all are. You've only met a small fraction of the horse folk in the world. I'm 20 years old, and I'm a lot better with horses than most of the horse people I've met, pretty much all of them are significantly older. Does that mean pretty much all people who are significantly older than me don't know a horse's head from it's tail? Of course not.

And PSS, haha. I NEVER retreat. If it feels like she's going to react, I stop where we are, give her a millisecond, remind her she has a brain, and move on. She is NOT allowed to back up, ever, because I feel like it's too much her idea.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

SmoothTrails said:


> I understand that....I'm feeling realy bad about having to have sold mine since I was his only rider from the time he was 2 until he was 11. His new owner is having issues, but I think that it mostly has to do with her being scared to discipline him :-| He was used to being told quickly if he did something wrong. I actually pretty much agree with your way of training, but I was wondering that because it takes a very confident rider to ride many of the horses that I have seen trained in your manner, and in other methods I have seen that they seem to be easier for less confident/experienced riders sooner.


I am not breaking horses for other people. I am breaking them for myself. Yes I have taken on one month training prospects and you will get a horse with lots of miles on him in that month along with a good stop, turning, sidepassing, no leads but responsive.
I will ride problem horses and spend my sunday mornings at a large stable riding problems but that is a one ride only deal. Barn sour, buckers, runaways are a one shot only.
I never start a horse expecting to sell it. I put too much into the horse, hours and hours daily and I don't do that for living. I do it for the love of a good horse between my knees.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

RiosDad said:


> From 50 plus years of riding with people, from 25 years of endurance riding *I have learned that the majority of people are too soft when it comes to dealing with horses. They tip toe around things, are afraid of upsetting the horses* but in the end most come to me to help them out with a problem and I end up riding their horses to fix something.
> I see problems from other boarders in a large barn that could be fixed in seconds if they just knew what they are doing.
> I am just giving my way of doing things, it works, the horse turn out fantastic and bold, outgoing and confident.
> *If the rider is timid the horse is timid. A confident strong rider gets a confident strong horse. Horses take on the personalities of their riders.*


I agree with you. In fact I agree with almost all stuff you posted in this thread. All I was referring to is there are people who force horse to do something when a different approach should be taken. But they use whip (violently), or spurs, or any other "tool" to make the horse go. That's just not a way to do it. I use whip to encourage my mares when they just try to avoid the work (it happens sometime), but never on scared to death horse.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

riccil0ve said:


> Me personally, my mare is such a character, and I'm sure not everyone agrees, but she "fakes" fear all the time.


Jemma does it too sometime.  In this case I just ignore her being "not in good mood" and make her go. Kiara doesn't fake - if she's scared she IS scared and you have to take it very quietly and persuade her it's OK.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

*Horses don't fake anything. They don't lie or cheat or steal*. Humans do those things. All horses are lazy and want to do as little work as possible and they are prey animals so if it moves or makes noise it generally bothers them. Also anything that seems to have poor footing will naturally be avoided. That's why puddles are a problem, horses vision is such that they don't see well close up in front of themselves which is why they try to back up a little. They also have rather poor depth perception up close so what is actually a 2 inch deep puddle looks the same as a 5 foot deep puddle. To reitterate *HORSES NEVER LIE!!*


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

horses dont lie....but ponies do !


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

riccil0ve said:


> I
> It is my personal belief that RiosDad seeks to challenge your methods, which in itself is a good thing. I think it comes across more attacking than he means. I'm not defending him, I'm just saying, there's nothing wrong with viewing your strategy from all angles and compare. =]
> 
> PS. RiosDad, just because you think "most people you've come across" are too whatever, doesn't mean we all are. You've only met a small fraction of the horse folk in the world. I'm 20 years old, and I'm a lot better with horses than most of the horse people I've met, pretty much all of them are significantly older. Does that mean pretty much all people who are significantly older than me don't know a horse's head from it's tail? Of course not.
> ...


Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost. I am attempting to share my experience and I know it comes across as argumentative and I am sorry for that.
Part of my frustration is the fact that I have always been the guy on top, the one looking after everyone else and I get tired of it. I want someone to set the starndard for me??? I want to learn from someone else???
riccilOve I would never dismount to pass anything, nor would my horse expect me to. Honestly I can thing of nothing that frightens him. Park two bull dozers a few feet apart and we will walk without fear between them, no hesitation, no undo looking side to side.
No object that I run into, can think of will cause him turn asside.

They don't get this way by themselves, it is not fear of me but a confidence in themselves, in me that they will not be harmed.
Have you ever noticed that if an owner is mad, is ticked right off the horse listens?? they sense the mood and respond accordingly.
This mood doens't have to be anger. It can just be confidence in yourself and the horse senses this. Be bold, be assertive, accept nothing but perfect obedience and spoil the hell out fo them.
I cut up 8 nice plump apples every night to add to his dinnner:lol:


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Ponies are a little more sinister than horses. I had a shetland pony that would have been a wild outlaw if he wieghed 1000 lbs. My kids could only ride him if I led him so when they got big enough I gave him to a lady with small children. I suspect when her kids are old enough to ride big horses he will get passed on again. Ponies are generally ill-manered  because they are mishandled and pushed around instead of being treated like horses. Even ponies are more honest than the very best people.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> I agree with you. In fact I agree with almost all stuff you posted in this thread. All I was referring to is there are people who force horse to do something when a different approach should be taken. But they use whip (violently), or spurs, or any other "tool" to make the horse go. That's just not a way to do it. I use whip to encourage my mares when they just try to avoid the work (it happens sometime), but never on scared to death horse.


My nature is gentle and I work equally well with timid abused animals. I broke a little 8 or 10 year old abused pony a few weeks ago and when my grandson astride the little pony and I showed up on the ladies doorstep she was so amazed to see her little timid pony boldly carry my grandson up to her door.
You have to feel when gentle is needed and when the bolt attitude is needed.
I don't beleive in whips other then for loading to move a horse forward. Never while training for anything else.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> *Horses don't fake anything. They don't lie or cheat or steal*. . To reitterate *HORSES NEVER LIE!!*


I don't understand this??? Has lying got to do with refusing to go through water??
Horses do Lie and dogs can count.
I was feeding apples tonight. The boys are lined up at the gate and I am going up and down the line giving them treats. A number of times my guy insisted that I missed his turn and want an apple out of turn. He out and out lied:lol:
Don't beleive dogs can count?? Put 3 treats in your pocket and only feed 2:lol::lol:


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

>>*Horses don't fake anything. They don't lie or cheat or steal*.


With all due respect, I really think it's a load of crap that they don't fake it, haha. If you met my mare, you would believe it to, because you can totally tell. When my horse is afraid, because I've seen her afraid, she just gets that look in her eye of pure terror. You can see it. When she "spooks" on the trail, she's trying to get out of something, and acting "afraid" is how she thinks she'll get out of it. It never happens, but she still tries on occasion. It really is a big difference, like a person making a scared face versus the expression a person who is really feeling fear.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

kevinshorses said:


> *Horses don't fake anything. *


They do. If it'll take them out of work they do.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

RiosDad said:


> * I don't beleive in whips other then for loading to move a horse forward.* Never while training for anything else.


You use spurs though.  I personally don't, so whip is the best substitution when they don't want to go just being marish.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

^^ I agree with the above post. spurs are the same as a crop or whip, when used in the right way. when used incorrectly, they also achieve the same end result.

I would never use spurs on my TB because I know a lot of jockeys use them in racing. However I do use a crop because I am not only left handed (most jockeys are right handed) but because he listens to some light taps on the shoulder a lot better than he would like me rolling spurs on his gut.

As for not faking anything....have you ever met a horse who's just a blowhard? All talk and then when it comes down to it, he's going to listen to you? That's faking right there, they're faking being dominant to see if they really are.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Kinda unrelated to the original thread, but... Is there real difference between the crop and the whip? Length? I always call "whip" anything from 1 foot long till those big lunging ones, but I've heard people using "crop" too.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

justsambam08;445173I would never use spurs on my TB because I know a lot of jockeys use them in racing. However I do use a crop because I am not only left handed (most jockeys are right handed) but because he listens to some light taps on the shoulder a lot better than he would like me rolling spurs on his gut.
.[/quote said:


> Jockeys using spurs are new to me?? I would have thought with their legs tucked up under them that using a spur would be too difficult.
> For those that don't like spurs nearly every EVERY higher level performance rider wears them. The finest trained horses in the world are rode by riders wearing spurs.
> I can not handle a whip effectively but with my long legs I can nudge him where I want. Spurs also make for a lighter horse. He doesn't ignore the slightest leg cue because it will be followed up by a jab.
> Like everything in training give a very light suttle cue and follow it with a much harsher one. They quickly learn to follow the light cue to avoid the harsher one.
> ...


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

I agree with kevinshorses. Horses NEVER fake fear, they NEVER fake emotion and they certainly don't lie to us. If a horse spooks it's because he DID think something was scary, not to get one over on the human. He's a prey animal, first and foremost, with self preservation number one priority. He's not a coniving (sp) being like people can be.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> Jockeys using spurs are new to me?? I would have thought with their legs tucked up under them that using a spur would be too difficult.
> For those that don't like spurs nearly every EVERY higher level performance rider wears them. The finest trained horses in the world are rode by riders wearing spurs.
> I can not handle a whip effectively but with my long legs I can nudge him where I want. Spurs also make for a lighter horse. He doesn't ignore the slightest leg cue because it will be followed up by a jab.
> Like everything in training give a very light suttle cue and follow it with a much harsher one. They quickly learn to follow the light cue to avoid the harsher one.
> ...


On smaller tracks its definitely a common thing, and also during training/ morning warm ups/breezes. On larger scale tracks I would assume they don't.






If you're referring to _that _as how professional riders use spurs, I'm appalled. Jamming a horse in its ribs isn't any way to get a horse to do what you want. In the case of barrel racing, the horse is already going to go as fast as it possibly can, just like it was trained, so doing that, right along with seesawing the reins like she is, doesn't accomplish anything except looking cool for a crowd. 

I guess it's easier for me since I'm 5'2", but what you say about using your spurs is the same thing I do with a crop. He listens to the tap because if not he's going to get smacked. I also use the voice cues along with seat cues.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

^^ That is appalling. That horse is an impulsive, unconfident mess.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Funny, I don't need a whip or spurs to get my horse to do something. I must be doing something wrong :lol:


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Ugh. Im not going to steal the thread...nevermind. Feel free to remove this post.


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## SmoothTrails (Oct 1, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> I don't understand this??? Has lying got to do with refusing to go through water??
> Horses do Lie and dogs can count.
> I was feeding apples tonight. The boys are lined up at the gate and I am going up and down the line giving them treats. A number of times my guy insisted that I missed his turn and want an apple out of turn. He out and out lied:lol:
> Don't beleive dogs can count?? Put 3 treats in your pocket and only feed 2:lol::lol:


I had a horse that would fake a limp BAD. HE would fake to the point he would smack his nose on the ground. If you reprimanded him he would stop. It took me a couple of times to realize what was going on, but then when i got off or got back on after I pulled him from the CTR he didn't limp at all. :lol: I felt like an idiot for believing him because he was a pretty good liar. lol. Horses can vount too  same thing with the treats


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Spirithorse said:


> I agree with kevinshorses. Horses NEVER fake fear, they NEVER fake emotion and they certainly don't lie to us.


Sorry, Spirit, I have to disagree on that one. They do fake and they do lie to get out of work, or to beg for the treat, or for some other "horsey" reasons. I've seen horses go intentionally lame as long as you bring him out of field (before the riding and even brushing). Because they know they'll be out of work. Back to field - no lameness at all. Same for the dogs.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> Funny, I don't need a whip or spurs to get my horse to do something. I must be doing something wrong :lol:


MM, it depends on horse a lot. I don't need whip on my qh, but my paint sometime showing off her marisheness. Slight tap usually tells her it's not time for that. I think it's way better then keep kicking on sides. Also I never tried spurs and don't think gonna try them, because I don't know how and don't have much desire to learn at this point.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Spirithorse said:


> I agree with kevinshorses. Horses NEVER fake fear, they NEVER fake emotion and they certainly don't lie to us. If a horse spooks it's because he DID think something was scary, not to get one over on the human. He's a prey animal, first and foremost, with self preservation number one priority. He's not a coniving (sp) being like people can be.


I think Kevin pointed this out before. While a horse might spook you can train them how to spook. Some turn and run others just stomp a foot, they do not spin, they do not jump to the side. All you get is a hard foot stomp. That is the extent of their spook.
Thursday night I was trotting through the bush and a ****, a big old **** was on the side of a tree and as we passed he suddenly shot up the tree with alot of noise and all my guy did was a hard stomp of a foot but that was it.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> Sorry, Spirit, I have to disagree on that one. They do fake and they do lie to get out of work, or to beg for the treat, or for some other "horsey" reasons. I've seen horses go intentionally lame as long as you bring him out of field (before the riding and even brushing). Because they know they'll be out of work. Back to field - no lameness at all. Same for the dogs.


I know a dog who fakes a limp....if its too hot outside or he's been out in the play yard too long, he picks up his back foot and hobbles on three legs. You can squeeze, massage, palpatate any part of the leg and foot and he doesn't show any signs of pain, but we let him inside anyway, even for five minutes, and no more limp. And, when my boy thinks I'm going to ride him, he holds up his right leg like he's resting it and sinks his hips so far down it looks uncomfortable. But if you push him up he can stand on it and he walks fine... it just looks like hes injured.

I don't think "lying" is an accurate term for it though. Just like everything else its a learned behavior. But it _is _a false behavior.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

justsambam08 said:


> If you're referring to _that _as how professional riders use spurs, I'm appalled. Jamming a horse in its ribs isn't any way to get a horse to do what you want. .


I don't look at barrel racers as higher level riders. I hate all gaming with horses and would never game a horse I owned.
I am referring to dressage, the spanish bull fighting horses, the lipizaners and others in that caliper of trainning. 

to me the ultimate in a trained horse


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

I stand by my opinion, horses do not fake fear.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> MM, it depends on horse a lot. I don't need whip on my qh, but my paint sometime showing off her marisheness. Slight tap usually tells her it's not time for that. I think it's way better then keep kicking on sides. Also I never tried spurs and don't think gonna try them, because I don't know how and don't have much desire to learn at this point.


Heh heh, I know that Val, I was being a smart alec since according to RiosDad you must be a POS rider if you don't ram spurs into your horses sides constantly. Because, you know, ONLY spurs will make a horse obey you. We're all living in a fantasy world doncha know.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

^^ rofl! I was going to leave being a smart alec up to someone else, nice job lol.


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## SmoothTrails (Oct 1, 2009)

I have to disagree that some barrel racers are most definitely higher level riders. I have seen people ride their barrel horses with no saddle on the pattern. I know that my step-dad refuses to use spurs or a whip on the barrel horses, they should want to go and love what they do. We use leg cues and reins together. Our horses also trail ride, and can do so at a walk and trot without being all freaky.

Why do you say barrel racers are not higher cliper riders? I don't see any issue with gaming horses as long as it is not the only thing that you do.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> according to RiosDad you must be a POS rider if you don't ram spurs into your horses sides constantly. Because, you know, ONLY spurs will make a horse obey you. We're all living in a fantasy world doncha know.


Your right out to lunch on that one. The spurs like the bit are for back up and with a trained horse that responds to suttle cues both are not really needed.

Again name a high level equine event where spurs are not used???
Again gaming and racing to me are not about a horses level of training but purely speed and interest me very little


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

SmoothTrails said:


> Why do you say barrel racers are not higher cliper riders? I don't see any issue with gaming horses as long as it is not the only thing that you do.


I rate them with bull riders, bronc riders and anything else to do with a rodeo.. I certainly don't envy them. I have seen too many crazy gaming horses. Calf roping is right up there too.
I would not be in the least bit interested in training one to game.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> Funny, I don't need a whip or spurs to get my horse to do something. I must be doing something wrong :lol:


No you are just an under achiever and ask very little of your horse.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

And just because YOU say it's true, it must be true, right?

We're not talking about the refined use of spurs as an extension of the leg. I'm referring to you and you're holier then thou attitude of thinking you can just spur the bejesus out of any horse who even thinks of doing something you haven't ordered him to do. You want to do it that way, fine, but my methods work just as well and I don't need some ancient coot with a stick up his **** babbling about how anyone younger then 50 and not YOU doesn't know what their doing.

Jesus murphy, is it really that easy to be such an arrogant pompous jackass? Or was it just a lifetime of being better then everyone else?


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## SmoothTrails (Oct 1, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> I rate them with bull riders, bronc riders and anything else to do with a rodeo.. I certainly don't envy them. I have seen too many crazy gaming horses. Calf roping is right up there too.
> I would not be in the least bit interested in training one to game.


I can see how you do not envy the ones that are blown up, but have you ever seen the good barrel horses? A calmer horse makes for better times, they don't use all their energy freaking out. My horses race and trail ride, and could be ridden by most levels of riders once they are fully trained.

If they start getting crazy then they take a total break from barrels, and only trail ride. Making such a generalization about the training level of these horses seems pretty ignorant IMO. Ours are trained over a 4-5 year period so that they aren't crazy like many of them are. You have to keep these horses in shape, and well-trained to be able to compete


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> No you are just an under achiever and ask very little of your horse.


AHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! OMG! Are you deadly SERIOUS?

Listen up folks - new method! Even if your horse is doing everything right, spur and whip them anyway or you're an underachiever! The God of All That Is Horses has spoken, we better get right on top of listening!


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> I'm referring to you and you're holier then thou attitude of thinking you can just spur the bejesus out of any horse who even thinks of doing something you haven't ordered him to do. ?


And you know this how????

This is another example of a fantastic horse and his rider definitely wears spurs.
Again can you name a high level event where spurs are not used??
How about dessage??
The lipizaners???
Anything???
How about reining??? I have seen them without bits but without spurs???

Agian you do not know what you are talking about?? bejesus is a big word, sort of like the girl in the gaming horse was doing??

Merlin


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

My goodness, you're just a pro at tuning out what you don't want to hear, aren't you? The fact that I'm even argueing with someone who doesn't know the difference between jabbing a horse with spurs on a trail to "make him go" and the use of spurs in higher level competition horses is just mind boggling.

Yeah sweetie, it's definately us young 'uns that don't have a clue. Maybe you've just been kicked in the head one to many times by your perfect horses to remember left from right?

Honestly, if you're going to attempt to trash an entire forum of accomplished riders with nothing better then "I DOOZ IT CAUSE THA DRESSAGE RIDERS DOOZ IT!" as your arguement, go buy some goldfish and leave the poor horse alone.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

SmoothTrails said:


> I can see how you do not envy the ones that are blown up, but have you ever seen the good barrel horses? A calmer horse makes for better times, they don't use all their energy freaking out. My horses race and trail ride, and could be ridden by most levels of riders once they are fully trained.
> 
> If they start getting crazy then they take a total break from barrels, and only trail ride. Making such a generalization about the training level of these horses seems pretty ignorant IMO. Ours are trained over a 4-5 year period so that they aren't crazy like many of them are. You have to keep these horses in shape, and well-trained to be able to compete


No I have not spent enough time around gaming horses. I have gone to a few rodeos, watch Calgary on TV and u tube videos and none of it appeals to me. I have no experience at training a gaming horse. I just see the crazy side of them at an event and watch their riders pushing them for all they are worth.
I don't even like how they treat TWH with the big lick so maybe I am a poor one to judge what is good or bad.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

RiosDad said:


> No you are just an under achiever and ask very little of your horse.


Wow, I can't even begin to say how rude that is. I can only speak for myself, but I'm sure I'm not the only one here who doesn't give a rats behind how old you are or how much "experience" you have with horses, if you use force to get what you want done with the horse and don't take into account his feelings or thoughts, then all this so called credibility goes out the window. I know I would never send a horse to you for training based on your rude responses to people and how you seem to think nothing can be accomplished without force, and that those of us who actually want to work WITH the horse and FOR the horse don't know what the heck we are doing, and how we are these incompetant horse owners. I GUATANTEE you that if you pulled that crap with my horse, he would have you on the ground in a heart beat and he would fight you so hard you wouldn't know what hit you.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> I don't look at barrel racers as higher level riders. I hate all gaming with horses and would never game a horse I owned.
> I am referring to dressage, the spanish bull fighting horses, the lipizaners and others in that caliper of trainning.


Any well-trained and desensitized horse of any discipline can drag a pole behind it. As for the actual training of these horses, all I see are horses who look stiff and in pain. I've previously stated in other posts that I respect the basics of dressage for what it can do, but wouldn't pursue it as a disciplne. I much prefer a horse with a little bit of personality, not a horse confined to a box, mentally and physically.


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## SmoothTrails (Oct 1, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> And you know this how????
> Agian you do not know what you are talking about?? bejesus is a big word, sort of like the girl in the gaming horse was doing??


Seriously?? wow you really are a holier than thou kind of person. You still have not really answered any questions. I can undersatand that you personally don't do any gaming, but you still have no idea the training that does go into it. In this case it seems you are ignorant so you choose to insult people who do not completely agree with you. I have gaming horses, show horses, and competive trail horses. I like to have all of my horses able to do either gaming or showing and competitive trail riding.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

justsambam08 said:


> Any well-trained and desensitized horse of any discipline can drag a pole behind it. As for the actual training of these horses, all I see are horses who look stiff and in pain. I've previously stated in other posts that I respect the basics of dressage for what it can do, but wouldn't pursue it as a disciplne. I much prefer a horse with a little bit of personality, not a horse confined to a box, mentally and physically.


Did you notice that no reins were involved. They were tied around his waist and he used his legs and the pole to control the horse. He demonstrated absolute control over him with his hands free to do other things. Horses were originally trained for battle. would you like to take that guy on?? He would run circles around anything I ever had as he would with most people.

What discipline would you persue???
I loved reining at one time, another time it was jumping. endurance for many years but now I prefer something like the pole dragger. I also find Merlin impressive and I am going to Spain and I hope to take in some good stables on my tour.


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## SmoothTrails (Oct 1, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> No I have not spent enough time around gaming horses. I have gone to a few rodeos, watch Calgary on TV and u tube videos and none of it appeals to me. I have no experience at training a gaming horse. I just see the crazy side of them at an event and watch their riders pushing them for all they are worth.
> I don't even like how they treat TWH with the big lick so maybe I am a poor one to judge what is good or bad.


Since you don't know the training that goes into it then IMO you should not make judgements about the training of the horses. You have no idea.

I don't agree with big lick TWHs and I have been around then a good deal, and seen a hoof ripped off in a show because the pad caught the ground.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Spirithorse said:


> Wow, I can't even begin to say how rude that is. I can only speak for myself, but I'm sure I'm not the only one here who doesn't give a rats behind how old you are or how much "experience" you have with horses, .


Anyone with Parelli in thier name isn't going to agree with me or me with them on anything.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

And you think horses like Merlin happen by beating him into submission every time he does something wrong? Trainers at that level of schooling cherish the bond between horse and rider and nurture it in every way they can. They're smart enough to realize that using those spurs to punish him for messing up a movement isn't going to get them anywhere. Maybe it works on trail horse, it does not work for successful horses doing things as extreme as Merlin is.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

RiosDad said:


> Anyone with Parelli in thier name isn't going to agree with me or me with them on anything.


Wonder why that is....oh wait, it's because we don't use force to get things done! What a concept, working WITH the horse to make the experience good for him.....how DO we accomplish anything?? *rolls eyes*


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

SmoothTrails said:


> Seriously?? wow you really are a holier than thou kind of person. .


The response you posted was not meant for you. It was for someone else who said I spurred the " bejesus" out of a horse?
My response was " You know this how?"""
I was not talking about a gameing horse and it was not meant for you. I reponded to you later.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> What discipline would you persue???



Cross country, show jumping, endurance racing, barrel racing or pole bending are all disciplines I would love to learn.

If you're half way as arrogant in real life as you are over the internet, you're spelling should be better than that of a nineteen year old. Maybe you should invest some of your fervor for defending how you train horses into other areas of learning.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

SmoothTrails said:


> Since you don't know the training that goes into it then IMO you should not make judgements about the training of the horses. You have no idea.
> 
> I don't agree with big lick TWHs and I have been around then a good deal, and seen a hoof ripped off in a show because the pad caught the ground.


My riding partner for about 12 years patterned barrel horses for her husband who rodeod, bull rode and barrel raced. Also did roping.
She ran the patterns teaching the horse and he raced them. I did go to a few rodeos with her to watch and all I saw was a bunch of wond up horses.
Pushing any horse to his limit is risking a pulled tendon or something else that can end his carrer. I never push, even in the 50 mile endurance races I always held something back. I never had a horse drop, never had a horse in trouble and seldom got anything on the score card but straight A's

We agree on the TWH at least.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

justsambam08 said:


> Cross country, show jumping, endurance racing, barrel racing or pole bending are all disciplines I would love to learn.
> 
> If you're half way as arrogant in real life as you are over the internet, you're spelling should be better than that of a nineteen year old. Maybe you should invest some of your fervor for defending how you train horses into other areas of learning.


I did show jumping in the 80's until I went to my first endurance ride in 1989 and then I was hooked. I sold my jumper, bought an arab and went into endurance for the next 10 years. When my partners gave up so did I. But if I found a tough enough partner I would go back into it. I ride with 2 ladies that could never last for a 50, nor would their horses.

My spelling is terrible. I don't proof read, I just sound things out, that is what spell check is for?


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## SmoothTrails (Oct 1, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> My riding partner for about 12 years patterned barrel horses for her husband who rodeod, bull rode and barrel raced. Also did roping.
> She ran the patterns teaching the horse and he raced them. I did go to a few rodeos with her to watch and all I saw was a bunch of wond up horses.
> Pushing any horse to his limit is risking a pulled tendon or something else that can end his carrer. I never push, even in the 50 mile endurance races I always held something back. I never had a horse drop, never had a horse in trouble and seldom got anything on the score card but straight A's
> 
> We agree on the TWH at least.


Well I'm gad we agree on the endurance side of things. When I finish a CTR my horse still has miles left, and we are always 1st or 2nd place in both horse conditioning and horsemanship. 

I guess you might call my game horses different from the norm if that is what you see as the norm, yes we push them, but ours still have miles to go at the end of even 3-4 runs. They trail ride to build up muscle, adn are not blown up or they don't get to race. Yes you risk things, but there are those same risks on difficult footing or in show jumping. 

In endurance riding and even pleasure trail riding there are those risks, especialy through footing and spooking.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

I have done 50 mile endurance runs on my competitive barrel horse as well as drill team and used him for a kids horse. 
I don't want a hopped up horse or an injury either.

I disagree with a lot I see in Barrel Racing but there is more to it than just running hell bent around three cans.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> And you think horses like Merlin happen by beating him into submission every time he does something wrong? Trainers at that level of schooling cherish the bond between horse and rider and nurture it in every way they can. They're smart enough to realize that using those spurs to punish him for messing up a movement isn't going to get them anywhere. Maybe it works on trail horse, it does not work for successful horses doing things as extreme as Merlin is.


Go around the top horses. Hang around the stables where they are being trained. If you get a chance look closely at the spurs??? You might find them alot sharper then you think.
I ride in short dessage spurs with a 3/8th blunt end. I hate the wheels, I don't like the noise when you walk and I don't want to mark a horse.
I could show you what the Arabs say about spurring but if I did you guys would claim it is mine. They beleived a war horse was not made until it was spurred. But that is only their opinion and not mine.

funny how it can go from BUMPING a horse, the words I often use to SPURRING THE BEJESUS out of them.. How is this???


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

It is just as easy to pull a muscle doing everything right during a 50 mile endurance ride comprised mostly of trotting as it is to pull a muscle doing events like gaming.

It's all about proper conditioning and proper training. There is nothing wrong with the disciplines, what's wrong is the people who don't know what they're doing.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Maybe if you bothered explaining yourself once in awhile instead of ranting and raving about how WRONG everyone else is, assumptions would not be made. When you waltz around preaching about how everyone is to soft on their horses and you "ram your spurs hard" if your horse tries to evade, exactly what do you EXPECT people to think?

I certainly hope your horse skills are better then your people skills.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

SmoothTrails said:


> Well I'm gad we agree on the endurance side of things. When I finish a CTR my horse still has miles left, and we are always 1st or 2nd place in both horse conditioning and horsemanship.
> 
> I guess you might call my game horses different from the norm if that is what you see as the norm, yes we push them, but ours still have miles to go at the end of even 3-4 runs. They trail ride to build up muscle, adn are not blown up or they don't get to race. Yes you risk things, but there are those same risks on difficult footing or in show jumping.
> 
> In endurance riding and even pleasure trail riding there are those risks, especialy through footing and spooking.


Endurance riding slows a barrel horse down. Long slow distance builds slow twitch muscle, speed work build fast twitch muscles. A race horse can not be conditioned by long slow distance. He needs speed work to build the right muscles.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Just wanted to add, that I use a crop and a whip in the same way. It is an extension of my aids. Like you mentioned, I will ask nicely the first time, and then use a crop or a bump of my spur to give the horse a wakeup call.

I condition by long trotting as well as loping to open up his heart and lungs. Does he place 1st every
time we go out and try a long distance ride, no and that's not why I do it. However I always have good remarks on my sheets. 
My point was that you can have a barrel horse that can do 50s and be level headed and sane. The reason a horse gets hot like you see barrel horses get is poor training.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Any performance trainer, no matter what discipline, that involves sharp spurs, harsh bits, mechanical devices and force to obtain their goals is an idiot whos only goal is to win....at any cost, as long as they win. It's sick.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

MacabreMikolaj;445654 [FONT=Tahoma said:


> I certainly hope your horse skills are better then your people skills.[/FONT]


I wouldn't get your hopes up...


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> It is just as easy to pull a muscle doing everything right during a 50 mile endurance ride comprised mostly of trotting as it is to pull a muscle doing events like gaming.
> 
> It's all about proper conditioning and proper training. There is nothing wrong with the disciplines, what's wrong is the people who don't know what they're doing.


Endurance horses don't have hock problems. Reiners certainly do and I can imagine that barrel horses would too. In endurance we do not ask the supreme effort. We ask for a long term effort but it is not a maximum effort.
There was an old saying?? Something about slow horses don't hurt themselves and then something about fast horses do so race them when they are sound and then sell???

Slow horses protect themselves, they are not pushing to the limit. An endurance horse properly trained an conditioned relaxes and travels with the minimum of effort. WE never ask for real speed. Long slow distance.
A barrel horse is asked for maximum effort, flat out running, then getting the hocks down in the ground and turning at maximum speed.
I certianly can see the difference in the stress on the hocks between a barrel horse and an endurance horse.
I have approximately 30 endurance trials behind me and never got pulled. The horse always came first and I ran alot on foot, alot of miles to save the horse. Do you get off the run??


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Spastic_Dove said:


> Just wanted to add, that I use a crop and a whip in the same way. It is an extension of my aids. Like you mentioned, I will ask nicely the first time, and then use a crop or a bump of my spur to give the horse a wakeup call.
> 
> I condition by long trotting as well as loping to open up his heart and lungs. Does he place 1st every
> time we go out and try a long distance ride, no and that's not why I do it. However I always have good remarks on my sheets.
> My point was that you can have a barrel horse that can do 50s and be level headed and sane. The reason a horse gets hot like you see barrel horses get is poor training.


We had the top quarter horse endurance horse somewhere in the 90's but he was at a big disadvantage over the arabs.. He had too much muscle. Quarter horses are not great endurance prospects. They don't cool as well as arabs. They usually don't have the feet also, no foot , no horse.
Champ got his 1000 mile pin but then had to be put down for something unrelated. While a great short distance speed horse and a so so endurance horse he was just not built for distance.
Just don't try him in a sprint race. He would walk all over my arabs.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

No, as a breed they're not. He has always been beat out by arabs and the gaited breeds. 
Mine actually has quite nice feet but of course he is going to get beat out by horses built to sprint. My point was to say that barrel horses can be all around horses. They are not all speed freak air heads.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> I certainly hope your horse skills are better then your people skills.


I prefer horses and dogs to people. Dogs wag their tails at their friends and bit their enemies. People are just a quick to bit their friends.
I teach engineering at a large university.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Spastic_Dove said:


> No, as a breed they're not. He has always been beat out by arabs and the gaited breeds.
> Mine actually has quite nice feet but of course he is going to get beat out by horses built to sprint. My point was to say that barrel horses can be all around horses. They are not all speed freak air heads.


Champ was a nice guy but at abut 1250 pounds he suffered more then my 870 pound arab in the heat. Very few quarter horses have nice feet, maybe some do but the majority don't. If you are serious about barrel racing then speed work it all he should do to build the right muscles

You say gaited breeds but I find they don't have enough forward gearing. I ride almost daily with a TWH and he just lacks enough forward speed. I can walk away from him at a half descent trot. He is smooth but too slow. I also worked a rocky mountain horse for a lady and while she had a nice running walk she too didn't have enough gears for me.


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## SavvyHearts (Sep 29, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> No you are just an under achiever and ask very little of your horse.


Boy oh boy :lol::lol:
RiosDad, I would LOVE to point out that on the video of Merlin that you posted....*gasp* the rider is NOT using spurs. Must not be a good rider then and an under achiever and doesn't ask much of his horse. 

I would say that comment, and agree with SPirithorse, that that comment was just downright rude and nasty. You do not know how she rides or how her horse listens. Yes bits and spurs should ONLY be used as re-enforcement, but if you don't need them, why should you use them?

I do not use spurs or big bits with ANY of my horses. I never use spurs or big bits...and I normally never use any bit in general. I can have my horse perform pretty much anything I need them to do with just a rope around their neck. Look at Honza Blaha or something like that.




> Endurance horses don't have hock problems.


Any horse can have hock problems no matter what the discipline. To say that endurance horses don't have hock problems is just getting your ego in the way. Not meaning to be rude at all.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

I disagree. You should not only do speed work. Constantly working on speed alone is what gets hot horses and while I will work my speed/game horses on speed conditioning more than one that I'm going to trail ride on, they will also go out and hit the trails and work other muscle groups and need to remain rounded if for nothing else but their mental state. 

I honestly don't know anything about gaited horses other than standardbreds. I just know there was a woman who had a little gaited horse and she always did quite well with them. I don't know what breed they were.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Spirithorse said:


> Any performance trainer, no matter what discipline, that involves sharp spurs, harsh bits, mechanical devices and force to obtain their goals is an idiot whos only goal is to win....at any cost, as long as they win. It's sick.


Yes they do sharpen their spurs and their idea and our idea of a harsh bit are miles apart. I think the gentlest curb so long as it has a curb chain is harsh, I ride in a copper roller D ring jointed snaffle but to a reiner they have high ports, lots of leverage and curb chains. Look at merlins bit?? It is a curb and propably has a port.
Yes to win is everything to some people but to me the well being of the horse comes first and many many a time I held my endurance horse back to a slower pace just to make sure I didn't fatigue him undooly??
Again i spent miles ane miles on the ground running as much as I could to releive him. I want at least 10 miles of foot running in a 50 and more if the slope of the ground permitted it. I tailed up ever hill.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

SavvyHearts said:


> Boy oh boy :lol::lol:
> RiosDad, I would LOVE to point out that on the video of Merlin that you posted....*gasp* the rider is NOT using spurs. Must not be a good rider then and an under achiever and doesn't ask much of his horse.
> 
> I would say that comment, and agree with SPirithorse, that that comment was just downright rude and nasty. You do not know how she rides or how her horse listens. Yes bits and spurs should ONLY be used as re-enforcement, but if you don't need them, why should you use them?
> ...


Merlin is being ridden with spurs. Freeze some of the first frames and you will see the shadow in the background. Spurs can come out the side on a 45 degree angle to make them more effective, the foot doesn't need to be turned to touch him. Watch his feet working in the side passing.
Merlin is also carrying some scars and if you do a search on him you might see some of them in pictures.
As for bitless I ran for 20 plus years bitless, so what. I ride in a snaffle, a gentle snaff and call any curb bit a big bit but really they are pretty small compared to what the reiners use.
I have rode in a hool a hoop , a string, totally without a head stall, a western curb, a snaffle?? So what.

Anyone who achieves everything they want without a bit, spur, whip, saddle in some cases aren't asking for much, an under achiever I would say.
Have you spent much time in a ring?? I have over 50 trophies that were collecting dust until I threw them out. AGain so what? It was fun at the time, I learned what I had to do to win and it means nothing today.
It was fun at the time, being a winner.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Spastic_Dove said:


> I disagree. You should not only do speed work. Constantly working on speed alone is what gets hot horses and while I will work my speed/game horses on speed conditioning more than one that I'm going to trail ride on, they will also go out and hit the trails and work other muscle groups and need to remain rounded if for nothing else but their mental state.
> 
> I honestly don't know anything about gaited horses other than standardbreds. I just know there was a woman who had a little gaited horse and she always did quite well with them. I don't know what breed they were.


Standardbreds are different. I never thought of them when you mentionded gaited. I won my first best condition on a standardbred and arab standardbred crosses make excellent endurance horses. It give the horse speed. An arab can trot all day at 8 mph, 12 if pushed but it takes too much out of them. A standardbred can cruise at 12 and push to 19 very easily, 30 mph if really pushed, way beyond what any arab could do and standardbreds are fearless. there nature is fearless and they make good amish buggy horses.
I agree speed work makes idiot horses but again slow work builds the wrong muscles.
Intervale training would benefit the speed horse


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> Heh heh, I know that Val, I was being a smart alec since according to RiosDad you must be a POS rider if you don't ram spurs into your horses sides constantly. Because, you know, ONLY spurs will make a horse obey you. We're all living in a fantasy world doncha know.


:lol: I actually agree that high level riders use spurs for slightest ques (top dressage riders are good example of that, as well as top western riders). But their horses are VERY trained. I don't think however spurs are needed or appropriate when you are starting a horse or on green horse. Also too many people really use the spurs in abusive way to keep horse going. I don't mean anyone here on forum as I didn't ride with anyone to make up my opinion, but I've seen it in barns around. :-|


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

SavvyHearts said:


> Any horse can have hock problems no matter what the discipline. To say that endurance horses don't have hock problems is just getting your ego in the way. Not meaning to be rude at all.


Compare an endurance horses use of the hocks compared to a reiner doing a sliding stop or a barrel horse running flat out and then trying to make the turn? Can you see any difference in how the hocks are going to be used?? I can.
Hocks are more likely to be hurt in a barrel horse then in an endurance horse. Is that my ego getting in the way??? How do you figure???


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> :lol: I actually agree that high level riders use spurs for slightest ques (top dressage riders are good example of that, as well as top western riders). But their horses are VERY trained. I don't think however spurs are needed or appropriate when you are starting a horse or on green horse. Also too many people really use the spurs in abusive way to keep horse going. I don't mean anyone here on forum as I didn't ride with anyone to make up my opinion, but I've seen it in barns around. :-|


In the barns I have been in I don't see many people using spurs. Whips alot but not spurs. I am one of the rare ones that use them and would feel naked without them. They are essential for barn sour horses.
In the reining barns everyone wears them.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Night ladies. I am growing weary of all the arguements.
Sleep well, tomorrow is another day:lol::lol:


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

RiosDad said:


> In the barns I have been in I don't see many people using spurs. Whips alot but not spurs. I am one of the rare ones that use them and would feel naked without them. They are essential for barn sour horses.
> In the reining barns everyone wears them.


Actually in cutting barn I go everyone wears spurs (but horses there exceptionally well trained with lots of money put in training). Except me. The horse works for me with no spurs as well as for other guys. 

English barns around don't use spurs and whips much (I carry whip occasionally in ring and never on trail), but western certainly do. Trail riders 99% time use no spurs/whips (but some have that long rope (mecate?)).


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## SavvyHearts (Sep 29, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> Anyone who achieves everything they want without a bit, spur, whip, saddle in some cases aren't asking for much, an under achiever I would say.
> Have you spent much time in a ring?? I have over 50 trophies that were collecting dust until I threw them out. AGain so what? It was fun at the time, I learned what I had to do to win and it means nothing today.
> It was fun at the time, being a winner.


So I'm an under achiever? Honza Blaha is an under achevier? Haute Ecole is an under achiever?

Yes I have spent some time in the ring. Not alot as I don't have the money to show nor do I enjoy showing that much. None of the times have I used crops, whips, big bits, spurs or anything like that. In the one local fair, yes nothing special, but to the folks at my barn it's huge, I won grand champion and lots of blue ribbons. No big name shows, but as I said...they are too expensive


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Doesn't everyone see? Everyone who doesn't use spurs, bits or saddles, and everyone who doesn't use force and everyone who doesn't show is an under achiever! Apparently all of our goals should be the same, our techniques should be the same, and if not, then we suck at owning horses. Apparently me being able to w/t/c, sidepass and jump my appy bridleless and have him be completely relaxed, confident and obedient is not achieving much  Apparently me, this under achiever, being able to turn around my warmblood's highly aggressive behavior is not achieving much. Can ya'll catch my sarcasm?  lol.


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> Anyone who achieves everything they want without a bit, spur, whip, saddle in some cases aren't asking for much, an under achiever I would say.
> Have you spent much time in a ring?? I have over 50 trophies that were collecting dust until I threw them out. AGain so what? It was fun at the time, I learned what I had to do to win and it means nothing today.
> It was fun at the time, being a winner.


Wow...that is a huge generalization, and quite rude, imo. What aids a person rides with does not determine how much he asks of his horse :roll: Spurs, whips, and even bits and saddles, could be considered an aid...if they aren't necessary to get the most of your horse, why use 'em? 

I have always had horses who respond well to slight pressure, and can go from one 'frame' of mind to another; ie from a speed event, to a pleasure class, dressage, etc. I don't use spurs, and rarely use a crop when I ride. If they are trained from the beginning to respond to light pressure, those aids aren't needed. 

I spent many hours in the arena when I was younger, but when I got to college I had to quit, because I didn't have the time. My horses didn't need a crop, or spurs, or a heavy bit to win. What some people can only accomplish with a heavy bit, or spurs, others can accomplish with out those things, and I don't think it's realistic to say that people who prefer not to use certain equipment aren't\can't get exactly what you can get out of your horse while you are riding.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

At the risk of incurring the wrath of the Boo, Hiss crowd I have to concede that riosdad has a valid point. BUT this is only from the perspective of my own riding and relationship with my horse. I have broken in Phoenix and for the last year have been riding and lightly schooling her. I can sidepass my mare, she can back up, move off her hindquarters, move off her front. I can push her into a trot and a canter. All of this is adequate for the trail riding that I do. 

However if I am totally honest I am an under achiever with my horse. All of the things we do are done fairly averagely and if I was to think about going into any kind of competition I would have to up my game. I don't ride with a stick and I don't wear spurs but the truth is I would need to in order to get Phoenix to pick up and get collected and get the 'crispness' I associate with a show ring.

Mind you I don't understand why he believes that only male horses are brave, I would put Phoenix against any gelding in the bravery stakes, she is fearless and is the only horse I have ever met that runs TOWARDS danger instead of away from it.

As for the original question how do I approach new obstacles on Phoenix, I ride up to them and Phoenix pummels them into submission! LOL:lol:


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## SmoothTrails (Oct 1, 2009)

spastic_dove said:


> just wanted to add, that i use a crop and a whip in the same way. It is an extension of my aids. Like you mentioned, i will ask nicely the first time, and then use a crop or a bump of my spur to give the horse a wakeup call.
> 
> I condition by long trotting as well as loping to open up his heart and lungs. Does he place 1st every
> time we go out and try a long distance ride, no and that's not why i do it. However i always have good remarks on my sheets.
> My point was that you can have a barrel horse that can do 50s and be level headed and sane. The reason a horse gets hot like you see barrel horses get is poor training.


Agreed 100% We don't only do trail riding to condition. I'm sorry if that was what you thought Riosdad. We do both trail riding, loping with riders and without, and we also work on the pattern at almost full speed.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

No boo, hiss here kiwigirl, I DO agree that he can have some valid points. I've just been right sick and tired of this attitude for quite some time now, and this thread just seemed to take the cake.

I have zero issues with RioDads training, if he's telling the truth, he seems to be a very capable trainer. I am just flat out sick of him ranting on about how everyone else sucks and if we don't do things his way and with his ambition, we're sudddenly "under achievers"? Not all people have the same goal with horses. He views them as machines to obey his every whim and has no qualms telling everyone else how wrong they are for not doing the same.

I find it sad mostly because it seems like on occasion he COULD have some really good advice to give, if he'd just cut it out with the **** attitude. People don't tend to listen when others can't stop bragging about how awesome they are.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> No boo, hiss here kiwigirl, I DO agree that he can have some valid points. I've just been right sick and tired of this attitude for quite some time now, and this thread just seemed to take the cake.
> 
> I have zero issues with RioDads training, if he's telling the truth, he seems to be a very capable trainer. I am just flat out sick of him ranting on about how everyone else sucks and if we don't do things his way and with his ambition, we're sudddenly "under achievers"? Not all people have the same goal with horses. He views them as machines to obey his every whim and has no qualms telling everyone else how wrong they are for not doing the same.
> 
> I find it sad mostly because it seems like on occasion he COULD have some really good advice to give, if he'd just cut it out with the **** attitude. People don't tend to listen when others can't stop bragging about how awesome they are.


I agree with 90% of what Riosdad says but sometimes I still want to argue because of the way it's said. Most people that don't wear spurs are not asking much from thier horses. Horses are lazy by nature and if you are pushing them either endurance wise or athletically they usually need more motivation to move off your leg. If you don't want to ride with spurs and you feel that you are getting all you need out of your horse then great don't wear them.

You're right the bragging about "my guys" is getting old.


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## paint gurl 23 (Jan 26, 2009)

Wow. This a very long thread. *Riosdad*, I am not exactly sure why you think every horse you ride needs spurs? and I really dont understand for the life of me why you think that someone is an "under achiever" for not wearing them? I personally can have my horse do anything without any "tools". Ya its called training! How does spurs become necessary for a barn sour horse? Please humor me. By reading through all your posts and defending yourself to peoples comments (which I dont blame anyone in here for getting upset)...you seem like a very closed minded, old cowboy who "cowboys" there horses and doesnt consider where the horse is at in there mind. Rearing isnt because they want to get out of work, if your horses rear baby or not, you are doing something wrong...its that simple. Not the horse, K? When it becomes a habit, then its still your fault..still with me? The horse isnt givin a second chance, according to you, and this is scary to someone who deals with horses with serious issues on a regular basis. Ya me "the fixer upper". Dont have a heart attack over there but I dont wear spurs EITHER or use any tools training, wow eh? and I still come out with all around horses that arent beat into listening, its called willingness to learn...IMO its people like you that "train" horses that end up screwing them up far more then someone who actually asks for help or listens to what people have to say rather then getting so defensive. You say you dont let anyone ride your horses, hell, I wouldnt even attempt to get on your robots, I want to ride a horse not something who has been beatin into your program or whatever you want to call it because it aint training. I would much rather get on a fresh colt then one of yours...eek. If you dont know how to work with a horses emotions, you shouldnt be telling people how "wrong" there ways are. Seriously. Anyone who doesnt take in there horses emotions or works with them to help them succeed, rather then just dig your lil dressage spurs in (which by the way are a hell of a lot more severe then them noisy big western spurs) and gives them one chance, you should be sitting in this forum as a student and open your eyes to all your own faults. You are someone that will screw up more horses because you never let them think for themselves and figure out what you want of them. They never will learn whats expected of them. Horses arent robots, its people like you that make them that way. You should step into the new updated ways of doing things sometime, you might then not be sitting there on your *** telling people how wrong there ways are because they dont wear spurs. Give me a break. You should be taking notes, not giving advice because what you do to your horses is just outright wrong IMO, you dont EVER force a horse to do anything. Its amusing that you can sit there and brag about something like that. It shows your true colors the more you talk so keep on at it, people are enjoying telling you how much of an idiot you are and I cant say that I disagree at all.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

WOW I was worried that MY comment would be too harsh!!


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## paint gurl 23 (Jan 26, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> I agree with 90% of what Riosdad says but sometimes I still want to argue because of the way it's said. Most people that don't wear spurs are not asking much from thier horses. Horses are lazy by nature and if you are pushing them either endurance wise or athletically they usually need more motivation to move off your leg. If you don't want to ride with spurs and you feel that you are getting all you need out of your horse then great don't wear them.
> 
> You're right the bragging about "my guys" is getting old.


I have to disagree. Just because people dont wear spurs, doesnt mean they arent getting full performance out of there horse. Not all horses are lazy by nature, some are and should be fixed on the ground beforehand to go forward. I dont know why a person would think because there horse is "lazy by nature" they need spurs? Spurs are just another crutch for the unknowledgable horsemen.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

paint gurl 23 said:


> I have to disagree. Just because people dont wear spurs, doesnt mean they arent getting full performance out of there horse. Not all horses are lazy by nature, some are and should be fixed on the ground beforehand to go forward. I dont know why a person would think because there horse is "lazy by nature" they need spurs? Spurs are just another crutch for the unknowledgable horsemen.


*Your ignorance is showing.* How can you train without using any tools? Do you use halters or bridles? Do you ride in a saddle? Those are all tools. You seem just as argumentive as Riosdad and you have much less experience. Your bragging is already old.


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## Nita (May 24, 2007)

Wow. I just read through this whole thread, and I'm not going to comment on a lot of things. But, just a few points to make.

Some horses are lazy, others aren't. Lazy, to me, is wanting to get out of work. I have one very honest, hardworking mare, that is most definitely NOT lazy. However, the majority of them are.

Spurs... I sometimes ride with them, only if I think some of my horses ARE getting lazy. They are an extension of my legs, and I simply use them so that I don't have to push as hard. Horses are more responsive to leg cues if they are trained correctly with spurs, I think. I don't just ask with the spur, though. It's leg, then spur. As soon as I don't have to use the spur anymore, it comes off. I am pretty clumsy and for some reason tend to trip on them more than other people, LOL.

Yes, Riosdad comes off as pretty offensive, and sometimes I don't agree with what he's saying. Actually, he can be quite rude and the bragging is getting out of hand. But that's not the point. The point is that we all have different training methods, and Riosdad, please, we are tired of being jumped on for having different methods. One post of advice is enough, then back to the original topic, please. 

If we want advice, we will ask for it in another topic. Give your 2 cents, that's enough. 

*waits to be jumped on* Just my humble opinion....


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## paint gurl 23 (Jan 26, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> *Your ignorance is showing.* How can you train without using any tools? Do you use halters or bridles? Do you ride in a saddle? Those are all tools. You seem just as argumentive as Riosdad and you have much less experience. Your bragging is already old.


Lol. How do you assume I have less experience? How am I bragging? Its called body language and energy, dont be so silly smart guy!


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## savvylover112 (Jul 17, 2009)

you didn't answer his questions


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I agree with kevinshorses, spurs are definately a very handy tool for many horses. I could definately see my Paint mare needing them. I just kind of giggle at the idea of using them on my Arab mare though, she's such a combination of being really sensitive and full of energy it's just an unneccesary tool for us at this point.

I like spurs because they can help prevent a horse from becoming "dead sided". If you have to kick just to get your horse to respond, it's time to strap on the spurs and up the level of refinement you need for a response. I think proper spur training makes a horse a lot more responsive in many ways.

However, spurs can be HUGELY abused and that's something that needs to be taken into consideration before assuming everyone should ride with them.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Wow, you go paint girl!! lol.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

kevinshorses said:


> Most people that don't wear spurs are not asking much from thier horses.


People from the jumper barn I just started taking lessons do not wear spurs (in fact the old trainer is very much against spurs and whips). And they still take top places at the shows. Talk about not asking much! Lol!


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

paint gurl 23 said:


> Wow. This a very long thread. *Riosdad*, I am not exactly sure why you think every horse you ride needs spurs? and I really dont understand for the life of me why you think that someone is an "under achiever" for not wearing them? I personally can have my horse do anything without any "tools". Ya its called training! How does spurs become necessary for a barn sour horse? Please humor me. By reading through all your posts and defending yourself to peoples comments (which I dont blame anyone in here for getting upset)...you seem like a very closed minded, old cowboy who "cowboys" there horses and doesnt consider where the horse is at in there mind. Rearing isnt because they want to get out of work, if your horses rear baby or not, you are doing something wrong...its that simple. Not the horse, K? When it becomes a habit, then its still your fault..still with me? The horse isnt givin a second chance, according to you, and this is scary to someone who deals with horses with serious issues on a regular basis. Ya me "the fixer upper". Dont have a heart attack over there but I dont wear spurs EITHER or use any tools training, wow eh? and I still come out with all around horses that arent beat into listening, its called willingness to learn...IMO its people like you that "train" horses that end up screwing them up far more then someone who actually asks for help or listens to what people have to say rather then getting so defensive. You say you dont let anyone ride your horses, hell, I wouldnt even attempt to get on your robots, I want to ride a horse not something who has been beatin into your program or whatever you want to call it because it aint training. I would much rather get on a fresh colt then one of yours...eek. If you dont know how to work with a horses emotions, you shouldnt be telling people how "wrong" there ways are. Seriously. Anyone who doesnt take in there horses emotions or works with them to help them succeed, rather then just dig your lil dressage spurs in (which by the way are a hell of a lot more severe then them noisy big western spurs) and gives them one chance, you should be sitting in this forum as a student and open your eyes to all your own faults. You are someone that will screw up more horses because you never let them think for themselves and figure out what you want of them. They never will learn whats expected of them. Horses arent robots, its people like you that make them that way. You should step into the new updated ways of doing things sometime, you might then not be sitting there on your *** telling people how wrong there ways are because they dont wear spurs. Give me a break. You should be taking notes, not giving advice because what you do to your horses is just outright wrong IMO, you dont EVER force a horse to do anything. Its amusing that you can sit there and brag about something like that. It shows your true colors the more you talk so keep on at it, people are enjoying telling you how much of an idiot you are and I cant say that I disagree at all.


Paint gurl I think you are right out to lunch. I ran a seperate post on the barn sour horse. I would love to hear how you would handle him.
As for robots. Isn't the idea of training to make the animal an extension of your body, your mind?? The simplist thought or motion transfers to the horse and he carries out your wish??
I have often questioned myself in how I communicated with the horse my own desires when he seems to do them of his own accord??
Walking down the headlands of cut corn in my mind I am picking the best row to run, say it appears to me to be the 6th row and the horse without an seemily guidance picks that exact row?? Again I question myself on how he knew?? when I don't even remember giving him the cue??

No I want a robot, an extension of my own body that reacts the way I think. His legs are my legs, his mind is mine to command with the suttlest of thought. 
This weekend I came across a downed tree. I just stepped off my guy, dropped the reins and walked forward dragging the tree from the path. I expect, demand that the horse remains fixed to the ground. He doesn't move a foot. Just stands peacefully watch. Is this not what we train for?? Is good training called making a robot???
BEAT is a strong word? How am I beating my horses in submission?


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

I won't let others ride my babies because frankly I don't trust them. I do not want my guy heavy handed. I don't want someone with unskilled hands pulling at his mouth. I don't want someone who doesn't have all the cues firmly implanted in their minds giving him the wrong cue, asking in the wrong way for something.
I beleive years of training can go down the tube with wrong handling quickly.
I ride with 2 older very gentle ladies and yet when I am jogging along beside them I look across and would like to tell them to lighten up with their hands. while my reins are hanging in a arch with my gentle snaffle both of them ride in curbs, chains tight and lines tight?? 
Do I want this for my boy?? NO way. Yet I am the guy with the spurs, the guy that accepts no nonesense and yet I want to be extremely gentle when he does the right thing.
Nobody rides my boys for years to come


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

*A wealthy old lady decides to go on a photo safari in Africa , taking her faithful aged poodle** named Cuddles, along for the company. 


One day the poodle starts chasing butterflies and before long, Cuddles discovers that he's lost . Wandering about, he notices a leopard heading rapidly in his direction with the intention of having lunch..  

The old poodle thinks, "Oh, oh! I'm in deep **** now!" Noticing some bones on the ground close by, he immediately settles down to chew on the bones with his back to the approaching cat. Just as the leopard is about to leap the old poodle exclaims loudly, "Boy, that was one delicious leopard! I wonder if there are any more around here?"

Hearing this, the young leopard halts his attack in mid-strike, a look of terror comes over him and he slinks away into the trees. "Whew! ", says the leopard, "That was close! That old poodle nearly had me!" 

Meanwhile, a monkey who had been watching the whole scene from a nearby tree, figures he can put this knowledge to good use and trade it for protection from the leopard. S o off he goes, but the old poodle sees him heading after the leopard with great speed, and figures that something must be up. The monkey soon catches up with the leopard, spills the beans and strikes a deal for himself with the leopard.. 

The young leopard is furious at being made a fool of and says, "Here, monkey, hop on my back and see what's going to happen to that conniving canine! 

Now, the old poodle sees the leopard coming with the monkey on his back and thinks, "What am I going to do now?", but instead of running, the dog sits down with his back to his attackers, pretending he hasn't seen them yet, and just when they get close enough to hear, the old poodle says. 

"Where's that **** monkey? I sent him off an hour ago to bring me another leopard! 

Moral of this story.... 


Don't mess with old farts.....age and treachery will always overcome youth and skill! Bull**** and brilliance only come with age and experience. 
*


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Very good story!!


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> Paint gurl I think you are right out to lunch.


 
Spot on analysis!!


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

I'd say BS comes in ANY age.... :lol:


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## paint gurl 23 (Jan 26, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> Paint gurl I think you are right out to lunch. I ran a seperate post on the barn sour horse. I would love to hear how you would handle him.
> As for robots. Isn't the idea of training to make the animal an extension of your body, your mind?? The simplist thought or motion transfers to the horse and he carries out your wish??
> I have often questioned myself in how I communicated with the horse my own desires when he seems to do them of his own accord??
> Walking down the headlands of cut corn in my mind I am picking the best row to run, say it appears to me to be the 6th row and the horse without an seemily guidance picks that exact row?? Again I question myself on how he knew?? when I don't even remember giving him the cue??
> ...


Nice joke you added in by the way, real mature. Im right out to lunch because I dont believe in what you do? LOL...I thought you said you "never" step off your horse? obviously if you were able to move the tree by hand, then it was small enough to ride over? I think you are talking out of your *** on some of your posts simply because alot of them dont meet up and well just dont make much sense. I find it funny how you backtracked a bit in this post I quoted..makes a person wonder...:wink: 
You all can call me "under experienced" or whatever you feel the need to say but I know that if someone doesnt know how to get performance out of there horse without spurs or "tools" and no *kevinhorses*, tools, or crutches in my book, are whips, spurs, tie downs, nose bands...seriously, I cant believe I have to actually put those things down for you since you know everything.....things a person "needs" to get there horse going because they dont know how to use there own body and energy and heaven forbid, knowledge...lol...smart guy...I laughed when you flipped out just because I dont use spurs *gasp* :lol:
If you cant get your horse to move without spurs or whips or "tools", *kevinshorses*, how do you expect to get him to move with these tools? by makng him do it?? sure, but I have to ask, what ever happened to getting a horse willing in the old days? oh sorry you guys are too old to know how to do that at least thats why I am being attacked because I am "out to lunch"...give me a break. LOL. :roll:


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

paint gurl 23 said:


> .I thought you said you "never" step off your horse? obviously if you were able to move the tree by hand, then it was small enough to ride over? LOL. :roll:


I try to mainitain the trails and if a tree, even a small one falls on the trial I will take the time to remove it. This one was only about 3 inches in diameter but there was alot of branches sticking out. Sure I could step over/threw it but come winter, burried in the snow he might trip on the trunk
Getting off to clear an obsticle off the trial is a long way from getting off to lead through a puddle.
I would have expected you to know the difference.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Did anyone watch MAN TRACKER last night?? His assistant, the guy on the black horse, the one riding with the snaffle? I thought the horse was poorly handled, poorly trained . I see alot of horses using a snaffle with heads like that. Sometimes you get better results with a curb.
Again that said I ride and train in a snaffle but hope in a few more years to be able to move up to a curb.


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## savvylover112 (Jul 17, 2009)

woa you would think you would know that getting off to walk your horse trough a scary puddle and clearing a tree to be nice are completely different paint gu rl


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## paint gurl 23 (Jan 26, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> I try to mainitain the trails and if a tree, even a small one falls on the trial I will take the time to remove it. This one was only about 3 inches in diameter but there was alot of branches sticking out. Sure I could step over/threw it but come winter, burried in the snow he might trip on the trunk
> Getting off to clear an obsticle off the trial is a long way from getting off to lead through a puddle.
> I would have expected you to know the difference.


Boy, do you have a funny way of avoiding things you dont want to hear. Where the hell did the puddle idea come into this? Grasping at straws are we? You sure enjoy trying to make people feel like complete morons just because your old and been around other riders/barns. Its kind of funny because people in real life like myself would not take your ****. This is where "respect your elders" gets thrown out the window because seriously, if you can sit on your computer and spend THIS much time bashing every single reply to your thread, you need to like get a life or something. You started this whole thread to make youself feel better about your poor methods of training. People like myself will not back down because my methods are "humane" unlike yours. You can sit there and continue to pick my *** on this forum, trying your damndest to make me look like an idiot, but I will not back down. Old or not, you can never know everything there is to know about horses, ever. 50 plus years of riding means nothing when you are closed minded and unwilling to learn from others. The people who actually, as you put, "pussy foot" around there horses issues CARE about there horses emotions. Unlike you that just digs the spurs in deeper. Whats the difference? You need to step into the twentieth century and update yourself rather then being so closed minded and snotty to the way others do things. You may be old but wholy jeesuz, grow up. Get over the fact that some people actually care about there horses and know of other ways to do things then force.. Horses are not machines, they have there own emotions just like us. If you dont know how to work with emotions, you shouldnt have animals. I would think you would know that.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

I think we need a bit of perspective here guys!!

You all a have it wrong, infact I am the Best rider, horse trainer, horse whisperer, horse anything on this whole forum. Actually in the WHOLE world! I am captain awesome horse person! And now you all know the truth. I'm sorry but there you go.

I think that settles the argument nicely!! (She rubs her hands together happily - job well done!)


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## savvylover112 (Jul 17, 2009)

Sorry paint gurl but the puddles came in because that is where he said he would never get off his horse for this kind of thing but he is using it as a comparison you actually brought it up by saying I thought you never get off your horse which comes from the thing about the puddles.


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## Nita (May 24, 2007)

*laughs* High five, kiwigirl! I'm even happy to agree with you. Today you can be the best, tomorrow I can be the best, and the next day it can be paint gurl, then Riosdad. 

Now everyone's happy. =)


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## paint gurl 23 (Jan 26, 2009)

Nita said:


> *laughs* High five, kiwigirl! I'm even happy to agree with you. Today you can be the best, tomorrow I can be the best, and the next day it can be paint gurl, then Riosdad.
> 
> Now everyone's happy. =)


Lol. Glad someone cleared that up!


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## Nita (May 24, 2007)

Haha. gladly.


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## WelcomeStranger28 (Oct 21, 2009)

I think that itt does all depend on the horse!! we had this horse, Blue. he was scared of nothing!! and i mean that seriously, it was like he didn't want to waste his energy being scared, so he is and awesome trail horse, he loves it.

my horse Nugget on the other hand, doesn't scare at anything big and scary like the other horses, he shys at the natural things like a stick crunching under his feet, or a bird that makes its twetty sound. The worst is when there is another horse playing up. He sees one and flips out of his skin and then pretty much falls over his own feet! I hope this helps anyone that needs this !!!


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## ChingazMyBoy (Apr 16, 2009)

Yes Blue isn't scared of anything -- is he still lazy old Blue? I think that it depends on the horse, its training and of course the rider. If the rider is scared and expecting the horse to freak out then what will it do? Freak out. You can trick a horse into thinking you are not scared but this can be very hard.

If I am riding I a horse through an obsticle that he isn't sure of then I will let him/her have a look then nugde them on. The last thing I do is get off and lead the horse through it because I think that shows the horse you are not comfortable being on their back and pushing them through.


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## haviris (Sep 16, 2009)

Ok, so I only read the first page so probably missed alot, but don't have time to go through 15 pages right now.

What I do in each case depends on the situation and the horse I'm riding (age, training, etc.). With a good horse the more he/she is exposed to the easier they take new things. With a young horse I will take some time to work them through it, generally that is done from their backs, getting off is a last resort. There comes a point that I will expect more from my horse, and before we go off to any unfamiliar places (unfamiliar to me, not the horse), I should have confidence that me and my horse can pretty much face whatever we come across. There may still be a few rare things we may encounter that I hadn't planned on, and I don't mind working w/ my horse abit to help him overcome any fear he has, but I do expect to be able to get past most things w/ minimal work.

I didn't read the puddle thread, so don't really know what that was about, I'm not sure I've ever had a horse that wouldn't cross puddles. My mare prefers to avoid water when possible, but she will go through it.

There are horses that spook at everything, even after seeing, and riding past it a million times, I don't really care to have a horse like that, I don't mind working w/ a horse on a certain obsticle they don't like for whatever reason, but I don't want to have to work through the same thing everytime I go for a ride. Thankfully my horse has a pretty good mind and takes new things really well.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

haviris said:


> I didn't read the puddle thread, so don't really know what that was about, .


This is the puddle. We are trying to get our horses to play in it like this




http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=iE4uoTuTD50


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## bubblegum (Oct 6, 2009)

such a cute wee elk, if someone hadnt written that it was an elk i would not have known wat it was, i would prob have said moose or reindeer, oops,


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> This is the puddle. We are trying to get our horses to play in it like this
> YouTube - Elk Calf playing in puddle


That sure is an ugly horse.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> That sure is an ugly horse.


We grow them a bit different up here in Canada


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Built a little up hill huh?


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> Built a little up hill huh?


I'm sorry. That was one of our draft animals.
This is a rider. Sorry for the mixup


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Much better. Must make a hell of an endurance racer with those legs.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

Those pics are frikken AWESOME! Thanks for those Riosdad.


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## Nita (May 24, 2007)

hahahaha Riosdad and Kevinshorses. You guys make me laugh. =)


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## whitetrashwarmblood (Aug 24, 2008)

Hmm, well when I first got my mare she was very green, and when she 
spooked it was like all hell broke loose. By spooking I mean she'd drop her
butt almost to the ground, and try to bolt at the same time. Very bizarre.

I got her over that quickly, and now if she spooks (which is very rarely) all 
she does is like what you said. She just kinda stomps her foot. Sometimes 
she'll snort at it, but not in a "omg, i'm about to bolt" way. More like in a 
"hmm, this looks/smells different" way. 

When I first got her, there were a few things that I would get off, and walk 
her through. Now I never have to, if I ask her to go she will. I think trust 
plays a big part here.

She was born and raised right next to an Amtrak rail road and a four lane 
highway no problems there. I'd take her riding in and along Lake Michigan.
Creeks, rivers, dunes, bridges, etc. We were always trail riding. 

I took her to jumping clinics at the fairgrounds, and I took her to fair 
for 2 years. We both grew up together so there were many days where I 
would just grab a halter and lead rope, and my friends and I would race 
each other in our 50 acre pasture. None of our horses ever needed spurs 
or whips. All of them were very responsive. Leg pressure, voice 
commands, whatever.

I do realize in more advanced riding that those tools are needed, or that 
some people may prefer them. I prefer voice commands, and I rarely use 
my legs BUT I have trained my mare to respond to leg cues (go, stop, left,
right). I would never use spurs or a crop because my mare already has 
plenty of go. She is NOT lazy. haha She's not one of those crazy always a 
hothead horses either. Even if I always joke, and call her the energizer bunny. 

As for geldings/stallions being more brave, or somewhere along the lines 
of that. I have owned and met MANY mares who could beat 
geldings/stallions in bravery any day.


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