# Conformation Critique For AQHA Stallion



## straysinnfarm (Oct 19, 2011)

4 year old AQHA Cremello Stallion - I would love to get some confo critiques of him. Thanks!


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## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

Is it possible for you to get some non angled shots for this? Every one of these is on some kind of an angle, some of them very unflattering for him.


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## straysinnfarm (Oct 19, 2011)

I can see if I can find some. I've got tons of photos but the photographer that I used - this was her first time taking horse photos - so I apologize for the angles, etc.


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## straysinnfarm (Oct 19, 2011)




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## straysinnfarm (Oct 19, 2011)

And no, he isn't THAT butt high. The first two photos were taken back in March - he had grown up more now and filled out some. He was also standing on a little bit of an incline


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

I like him but not as a stallion. He is a bit long backed and his hind leg angles are not correct (lower stifle would help IMO). He may not be butt high but he is certainly at the least even (from this set of photos). He has a good front, nice shoulder and a good neck and head set. He has good bone. 

When I say I do not like him as a stallion it has to do with conformation. I believe that a stallion needs to earn the right to keep his 'equipment' and use it by having very good conformation and working titles (your horse may have working titles). These need to be repeatable under different judges and scenarios. 

All that being said, remember this.. Opinions are worth what you pay... 

I like Cremellos. My first horse was a cremello though he was very white in his body and off white in his mane and tail.. one Watch eye and one solid navy blue eye. I have never met a cremello I have not liked as far as attitude and capacity to think and solve puzzles goes. Purely anecdotal but I often have wondered if the coloration is tied in to that attitude and puzzle solving ability.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

He's calf-kneed.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

bubba13 said:


> He's calf-kneed.


Ya know.. you're right!


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## straysinnfarm (Oct 19, 2011)

Here's a couple of him in motion


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Again, he is pretty in pictures but he is not stallion material. 

He would make a very very nice gelding (WP and so forth).


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

Personally I think he is breathtaking! What do you do with him?
How has he done in halter? His neck and shoulder are very nice!
He is a tad long in the back, I would like a longer more angled
pastern his look a bit upright, and his hindquarters in some of the
photos look pretty steep and not as rounded as I like, I wouldn't say
butt high. 
I'm not sure I'd breed to him, I do have a rather red sorrel
mare so there would be the 15% of almost ANY color which would
be exciting! Keep us updated on his progress! Over all he's a bute!


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## straysinnfarm (Oct 19, 2011)

We just got him in February of this year. He just turned 4 in January too. When we got him, he had never been ridden or anything - just kept in a stall and turned out seldom. I've attached a photo that I took of him the day we went to pick him up. He said this was the first time he'd been turned out in over a month. I figure it tells you about how his manners were, etc. HOWEVER, he is now broke to ride and I'm hoping to send him to a reining trainer to be finished. He's not reining bred but I love the foundation that reining will put on one. He's VERY well behaved now and is the most comfortable horse I've ever sat on. Super floaty trot, rocking chair canter. Love him to death!
He hasn't been shown in halter yet - we're hoping to get his show career started next year. 
I have one mare in foal to him - a appendix bred palomino mare - we plan on keeping the foal. The people we got him from bred him to 5 mares I think when he was a 3 year old. Would I have bred him that young? No, but that's just me. However the foals that they have are VERY well built little tanks.


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## Red Gate Farm (Aug 28, 2011)

Elana said:


> I like him but not as a stallion. He is a bit long backed and *his hind leg angles are not correct* (lower stifle would help IMO). He may not be butt high but he is certainly at the least even (from this set of photos). He has a good front, nice shoulder and a good neck and head set. He has good bone.
> 
> When I say I do not like him as a stallion it has to do with conformation. I believe that a stallion needs to earn the right to keep his 'equipment' and use it by having very good conformation and working titles (your horse may have working titles). These need to be repeatable under different judges and scenarios.
> 
> ...


What is not correct about his hind leg angles? I have an uneducated eye for the subtle differences in angles and am trying to learn a bit more. Can you expand on the hind leg angles, and what should we be seeing?


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

His stifle is too high and his hock is a bit high as well. Compare these two images. The black is one of the best examples of overall correct conformation in a horse I have ever seen (Lonrho, Australian TB).

The black has a nice, short back with a smooth coupling. He has flat knees and is not calf knee'd like the Cremello. You can drop a plumb line fron the point of buttock and it will correctly follow the back of the cannon in a vertical line to the ground. 

The Cremello has high hocks, a high stifle and he is a bit long in the back. The uneven ground is not helping him at all (pasterns look short). A lower stifle and a lower hock would improve his power back there. A shorter back and smooth coupling with help him even more.


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## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

In all honesty... He is what I consider a "typical" AQHA/APHA cremello stallion. A horse which, on the surface, gives you some wow factor... But if you paint him chestnut faults you wouldn't "normally" breed to pop up.

I don't find his back too long, of itself, but what does lend a lot of concern for a riding horse is his long loin and worse still is the LS joint placement which seems to fall quite a bit behind his hip. All of this is taking strength away from the horse's back...He does have good loin girth depth... Which will help HIM counter those faults, He may not have trouble with this if he is trained and worked correctly, but isn't really something you want to reproduce though... And depending on the mare he is bred to may end up with a foal which is worse.

Then there is his hind limb contruction... Which is not uncommon within AQHA, especially some bloodlines... But he is a bit straight behind, granted seeing him at about 8 years old may show he grows into it some. Many growing horses can look straight at times and balance out... But some stay straight.

He does appear calf kneed. 

So neither his front limbs nor his hinds are "ideal"... From a structural standpoint.

His overall balance is downhill... My gut says he will stay that way. Which, again, is not uncommon for a Quarterhorse but it will make it harder for him to truly round out and move correctly.

He has a lovely front end, lovely neck shape, and shoulder. His chest looks deep and wide. His overall balance is not bad. He has strong points, and obviously a great temperament... He is a lovely, eye appealing horse, But in all honesty he is not, IMO, truly breeding quality... His faults are what I would consider "major weaknesses" involving both his back and his legs, even if they aren't all "extremely" bad, they are there. 

I believe the last stats I read said that AQHA registers around 130,000 foals every year... IMO it is time for many Qh breeders to get tougher on their breedingstock. (consider that registries like KWPN, with inspections, register something like 15-30,000)

The thing about breeding is you really roll the dice, especially with a virtually unproven animal, on which traits will be passed on and which won't. We all know that every horse has faults, and choosing breedingstock is really about deciding which faults can be overlooked, which get cancelled by which strengths, and which are "no no's" to produce offspring which will have long, sound lives.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

I will add that back when I was breeding horses I read somewhere that there were 2 mares for every uncut Quarterhorse Stallion (over 2 years old) in the United States. I was really set back by that. 

We all like our horses. I have had some good ones. Just because we really like them and they are good does not mean they are good enough for the breeding shed or that we should breed them (same is true of dogs!).


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## Red Gate Farm (Aug 28, 2011)

Elana and TheLastUnicorn thank you!  That was very helpful.


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## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

Elana hit it on the head... We all love our own horses... It makes these sorts of threads difficult because it can be hard to sit there and look at your own horse with the same critical eye that others will. 

For that reason I sincerely hope the OP doesn't feel like a few of us are "picking on" her horse.


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## straysinnfarm (Oct 19, 2011)

I don't mind at all - if I did, I wouldn't have put his photo on here :O)


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## caleybooth (Mar 11, 2011)

What does calf-kneed mean?


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## straysinnfarm (Oct 19, 2011)

I was wondering the same thing. I googled it and the images I found do NOT look like his legs


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## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

Calf-kneed is a term used to describe a horse who's knee comes behind the imaginary plumbline drawn from the center of the shoulder to the ground. This horse is not an extreme example, by any means, but a few of the photos are showing the fault to a minor degree. (this is why there is so much stress about getting good conformation photos).


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Calf-kneed means there is a slight-to-severe backward bend to the knee, rather than being straight (ideal) or bent at rest in the opposite direction (over at the knee / buck-kneed). It's also the most inhibiting of the knee conformation flaws, predisposing the horse to traumatic soft tissue injury due to over-extension.

This is the image I always use to illustrate. The horse on the left has severe calf knees, the middle horse has correct knees, and the one on the right is over at the knee.


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## caleybooth (Mar 11, 2011)

Thanks Bubba. That helps alot!


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## FGRanch (Feb 9, 2008)

I am curious what his breeding is, do you have a link to his pedigree?


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## straysinnfarm (Oct 19, 2011)

Tesign Cremor Quarter Horse


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Seeing as you own him and are currently breeding him and offering breedings to the public, what makes him so special in your mind to keep his jewels?


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## straysinnfarm (Oct 19, 2011)

I have always wanted an Impressive bred (N/N) cremello stallion that was well put together and great minded. And we found him earlier this year. He has produced some very handsome foals. Yes we stand him to the public BUT we are very selective in who we breed him to. We only breed him to 5 or 6 outside mares per year and they must be registered, well put together, etc. We currently have one mare in foal to him for a 2012 baby that we plan on keeping.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Are you planning on showing him at all or just breeding him?


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## straysinnfarm (Oct 19, 2011)

We plan on showing him next year. Actually, I've been talking to a reining trainer and we are hoping to send him there after the first of the year. He does need some showing under his belt :O)


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## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

straysinnfarm said:


> I have always wanted an Impressive bred (N/N) cremello stallion that was well put together and great minded. And we found him earlier this year. He has produced some very handsome foals. Yes we stand him to the public BUT we are very selective in who we breed him to. We only breed him to 5 or 6 outside mares per year and they must be registered, well put together, etc. We currently have one mare in foal to him for a 2012 baby that we plan on keeping.


I was going to say you can see the Impressive in him right from the start.

Do you have photos of the foals? 

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I think your boy is "handsome"... But doesn't have enough strong traits for me to want to see him in the breeding shed. So Handome is as Handsome does when it comes at the compromise of structural integrity.

What would change my mind a bit was if he was consistently winning in a performance sport... (I'm not real fussy about what sport) In some cases structural correctness is all well and good, but let's face it, most people want a winner (in whatever they do)... 

I give you props that you have him tested N/N, he has been started and you plan to show him..l that does place him higher than a few other cremello QH's out there. 

One last question... Are you prepared to geld him if he doesn't do as well as expected in the show ring?


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## straysinnfarm (Oct 19, 2011)

Oh yes, I totally agree that if he doesn't do well in shows, etc, then yes, I don't have a problem gelding him. I do have photos of his foals. I'll attach them. And about the HYPP thing, I wouldn't breed anything unless is it N/N - I can't stand to see people advertise N/H or H/H horses as breeding prospects but that's a whole other story lol. I have a mare that I'll post on here to get her confo critiques. 

















Both of these colts were about 1 week old when these photos were taken. They haven't sent me any recent photos of them


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## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

Well, the first foal seems to have a better LS placement than daddy (LS is set at birth, from my understanding and is the pivot point between the back and hindquarter. It's placement can affect the horse's ability to transition correctly, collect easily, and contributes to thrusting power) And stronger loin... I realize the the photo isn't ideal and he's very young, but I suspect he will end up straight behind. I am assuming he either just took a step or is about to and that is why his left knee looks odd. I like his neck, and front end (reminds me of his daddy). 

The second is much nicer in regards to hind limb construction (because of his age, the over angularity isn't necessarily bad... They generally straighten more with age, which is why a goal who is straight behind is a "concern") but his LS placement doesn't seem as ideal and he has that longer loin (if that is his dam behind him, she also has this trait, as well as a similar LS placement, it is often "forgiven" in a broodmare as the theory is a longer loin can make foaling easier.... And why I prefer to see a stallion with a short, strong loin and good LS placement)

They aren't terrible by any means... But be aware that some of daddy's fault are seeping through, along with his strengths though...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FGRanch (Feb 9, 2008)

I might get shot in the back for this one but...go ahead and show him before you decide if het should keep his tools or not. I have seen lots of horses, way worse off than your boy, conformation wise, excell in what they were bred for and then produce outstanding babies that excelled in what they were bred for. The only thing I really really don't like about him? His color lol Not a fan of double dilutes


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## straysinnfarm (Oct 19, 2011)

:wink: LOL - I really don't mind all the posts about him. Everyone has their own opinions. It's rather hard to offend me and I am the one that posted him on here to be critiqued in the first place.


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## FGRanch (Feb 9, 2008)

BTW I love the heads he puts on his babies, uber cute.


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## straysinnfarm (Oct 19, 2011)

Me too! Cute little baby doll heads! :O)


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## mudpie (Jul 15, 2011)

Look at him eyeballin' that chicken! He says, "Ya'll betta get out of mah way, or you and your babehs are gonna be KFC status, homies!"

Have fun, love your horse, and remember: A transition is just a glorified half halt!


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## kywalkers2012 (Oct 25, 2011)

FlyGap said:


> Personally I think he is breathtaking! What do you do with him?
> How has he done in halter? His neck and shoulder are very nice!
> He is a tad long in the back, I would like a longer more angled
> pastern his look a bit upright, and his hindquarters in some of the
> ...


FYI if you bred a red sorrel to a cremello like him the ONLY color that you could possibly get is a palomino.


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## kywalkers2012 (Oct 25, 2011)

Overall, he is a pretty good looking stud. But, I'm like everyone else here. I'd love to see him excel in a sport before I would breed to him. But, train him and show him and go from there. I really like that palomino colt out of him.


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