# Pinto patterns on the face



## MelissaAnn (Aug 26, 2011)

Hey everyone, I've noticed a few members on here are very good at describing how certian patterns influence the star/blaze/stripe/snip on a horse's face. Can we get a discussion going so I will know what to look for? For example, what prevents it from going over the eye, what makes it go under the chin, what prevents it from getting too tall, etc. Lets post some pictures too!


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Frame tends to make top-heavy facial markings. It wants to spread out and make a bald face, much like it is on this horse. It will avoid the ears if possible though. Again, this is just demonstrating the whole 'frame' nature that it was named after - it wants to leave white on the nose and the ears, thus making the face white framed with colour.

Splash tends to be bottom heavy. It often gives blazes an 'apron' appearance, where they noticeably flare toward the nose. Splash also tends to 'slip' and make face white uneven on the face - more to the left or right, not centered. Again, splash will try to avoid the ears, but will try to cover the eyes if it can.

Sabino tends to be the 'messy' white. It likes to give the horse a chin or lower lip spot at least. Its edges tend to be less neatly defined, and often seem to roan or bleed out to the colour parts. Sabino seems to also like to keep white off the eyes, and like the other two, will also try to avoid the ears.


Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-colors-genetics/what-color-pattern-will-i-get-107563/#ixzz20ndF5HJe


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## MelissaAnn (Aug 26, 2011)

alright, I start. This is the Solid Paint Bred APHA I am leasing right now. His name is Jack. I am really curious about what pattern he carries even though even though there aren't a lot of clues.... What do you see and why? He has two short socks and two taller stockings, but really I am more interested in the face aspect of it.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Do you have any pictures?


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## MelissaAnn (Aug 26, 2011)

Yes, sorry! You must have posted that right as I was editing mine post to include a photo.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

I want to say sabino - the white is very even top and bottom. There could also be splash there causing the "apron" effect on one side there, and the white seems to slide a little to one side. I don't suspect frame in his case, although it could well be there, but being a gelding, it's not anything to worry about


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## MelissaAnn (Aug 26, 2011)

thanks for your reply! We should get some more people to post pictures of blazes for you to take a stab it. 

So I know tobiano wants to make a solid face, correct? Does that mean if they generally look tobiano but have white on their face, there must be someone else going on? I know that most horses display more than one pattern.

Also, do all horses with white carry some form of pinto gene?


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Yes, any sort of white has to be caused by a pattern gene of some description (except white caused by scarring of the skin, either through injury or fungus etc.). Off the top of my head there are the following white patterns: Tobiano, sabino, splash, frame, rabicano, dominant white (11 different varieties, maybe 12, so far), classic roan, appaloosa (5 different ways) and grey. Then you can also have Birdcatcher spots, which may be genetic but it is difficult to determine as yet.

If a tobiano has face white, yes, there has to be another white patterning gene present. The three that cause face white are splash, sabino and frame.


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## TexanFreedom (Apr 2, 2012)

Apart from maybe a miniscule star, tobaino will not have face white, unless there is some other gene(s) at play. I am pretty sure that goes for appy as well. 

As with stars, it depends on size and placement to determine what particular gene is causing it. 

These markings are a sign of domestication, wild animals don't have markings (socks, white toes, ect.) like domestic dogs, cats and horses do (and others). 

Completely off topic; 
Has anyone ever seen the documentary Dogs Decoded? I really recommend it. It talks about the domestication project of wild captured foxes in Russia, and over 50 generations, they are submissive, like dogs, their noses/snouts are getting shorter, and they are getting white markings on their feet, tails ect. It's really cool.


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## Elizabeth Bowers (Jan 26, 2012)

Here is my loud frame overo mare, sporting a medicine hat, and bald face. I have yet to get her tested because a few people think she may be splash or sabino too. I don't know much of her history or alot on breeding for colors, but i thought the pic would help


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## ThirteenAcres (Apr 27, 2012)

Elizabeth Bowers said:


> Here is my loud frame overo mare, sporting a medicine hat, and bald face. I have yet to get her tested because a few people think she may be splash or sabino too. I don't know much of her history or alot on breeding for colors, but i thought the pic would help


Your mare looks an awful lot like my filly! =)


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## Bridgertrot (Dec 2, 2011)

You can take a stab at my mare. I've already asked people about her before but you can try as well. She has the blaze, roaning in flanks, a random roaning spot on her barrel, and a spot about quarter size on her neck. Excuse her being dirty and walking around in manure. This was the day I bought her at her old owners place. She was quite fat and fuzzy. Breedstock paint out of two black overos. 









_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TexanFreedom (Apr 2, 2012)

I think just my what's on her face, she is frame.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Bridgertrot, your mare definitely has frame. You've mentioned her in other threads and that spot on her neck is most definitely frame.


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## Bridgertrot (Dec 2, 2011)

Yep, I knew from previous thread that she mostly like does have frame. Just providing the OP with more examples. One thing I always forget to mention is that she has two brown eyes, but one of them is surrounded by white like a human eyeball.


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## Quixotic (May 22, 2009)

Elizabeth Bowers - your mare is DEFINITELY sporting other patterns, Frame won't cause that much white by itself!


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

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## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

Chiilaa said:


> Yes, any sort of white has to be caused by a pattern gene of some description (except white caused by scarring of the skin, either through injury or fungus etc.). Off the top of my head there are the following white patterns: Tobiano, sabino, splash, frame, rabicano, dominant white (11 different varieties, maybe 12, so far), classic roan, appaloosa (5 different ways) and grey. Then you can also have Birdcatcher spots, which may be genetic but it is difficult to determine as yet.
> 
> If a tobiano has face white, yes, there has to be another white patterning gene present. The three that cause face white are splash, sabino and frame.


So from what you're saying, any horse that has white on its face has one of the three "overo" genotypes? I could be misinterpreting what you're saying, but that's what it sounds like. I don't want to have to go spend more money on pinto gene tests on Reno...cause I'd just be curious like that.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Reno Bay said:


> So from what you're saying, any horse that has white on its face has one of the three "overo" genotypes? I could be misinterpreting what you're saying, but that's what it sounds like. I don't want to have to go spend more money on pinto gene tests on Reno...cause I'd just be curious like that.


Yup, that's EXACTLY what I am saying. Any white has to be caused by one of the white patterning genes, including face white and leg white. The ONLY exception to this is white hair caused by scarring.


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## EmilyJoy (Dec 30, 2011)

OK, so anyone want to take a stab at Sophie's type?
She's a breeding stock paint, and besides the white on her face she has a white hind foot with a little white on the pastern... Here are some photos that show the blaze.

















Sorry that the photos are so huge!


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## mammakatja (Nov 3, 2009)

This is my tobiano. Not much white on the face but I guess enough to mean there's another pattern present?










And what about my mare? She's a registered solid paint but also an appendix. Her only white markings are the star on her face and the white pastern on her right rear foot. Her sire was a registered appendix and her dam was a registered sorrel tobiano.


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## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

Chiilaa said:


> Yup, that's EXACTLY what I am saying. Any white has to be caused by one of the white patterning genes, including face white and leg white. The ONLY exception to this is white hair caused by scarring.


So...Reno's (ridiculously minimal) pinto? O________O
Would that even show up if he was tested?


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Depends on which gene is causing it and if it is one they have a test for...


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## Quixotic (May 22, 2009)

I believe the current theory is that all face & leg white in typically non-pinto breeds is caused by some form of Sabino that they haven't yet been able to identify yet.


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## SoldOnGaited (May 21, 2012)

This is a very educational thread for me...being new to the wide world of color and genetics! Thanks for posting. 

So what do you see in my girl? She too has 1 eye with white around. 

*She has a Y shaped band under her chin that only extends on her left side.*

Fascinating stuff! Thanks!! (Jumbo pics...my apologies)


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## sommsama09 (Oct 28, 2010)

Subbing!


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Quixotic said:


> I believe the current theory is that all face & leg white in typically non-pinto breeds is caused by some form of Sabino that they haven't yet been able to identify yet.


Sabino and/or splash IME.


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## EmilyJoy (Dec 30, 2011)

Do you see any frame in my horse's "blaze" in my above post?


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

EmilyJoy said:


> Do you see any frame in my horse's "blaze" in my above post?


It could be frame. It is a bit top heavy, which can indicate frame. I can't see any leg white, which is another indication, although she doesn't have a huge amount of face white, so no leg white is not particularly abnormal enough for me to be positive. She is one that would need a test to tell for certain.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

mammakatja said:


> This is my tobiano. Not much white on the face but I guess enough to mean there's another pattern present?
> 
> View attachment 106981


Almost certain the other white pattern here is frame. The star looks frame to me, and the large amount of body white with leg white that doesn't connect also says it. Add onto that, the way the white is trying to creep up her neck. 



mammakatja said:


> And what about my mare? She's a registered solid paint but also an appendix. Her only white markings are the star on her face and the white pastern on her right rear foot. Her sire was a registered appendix and her dam was a registered sorrel tobiano.
> 
> View attachment 106988


I think sabino in this case. The star is trying to go horizontal down her face, without spreading too much, and without going too far to one side. Sabino can be messy, but it does like even face white. The sock is probably sabino too, although minimal tobiano can express through socks on the back feet.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

SoldOnGaited said:


> This is a very educational thread for me...being new to the wide world of color and genetics! Thanks for posting.
> 
> So what do you see in my girl? She too has 1 eye with white around.
> 
> ...


She looks like sabino frame and tobiano to me. Tobiano is easy - white crossing her spine, particularly heavy on the shoulders and hips. Definitely tobiano.

Frame is fairly easy to see in this girl - the way she has white on her neck there. Not joined to the body white, and spreading horizontally up the middle of the neck. Frame is also trying to restrict the white on her legs - see the way the colour is trying to cut the white off around her forearm on the front left leg? Her face white is also trying to spread horizontally above her eyes, another indicator.

Sabino is also easy to see in this case. She has white on her chin and lower lip, her white markings have messy edges, and if you hold a mirror up to her face white, it would be very close to mirror image on each side of her face.


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## SoldOnGaited (May 21, 2012)

WOW thank you so much for the detailed explanation Chiilaa! You gave much more than I expected lol. 

I feel like I know a little something now haha. 

Thanks again :-D
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

SoldOnGaited said:


> WOW thank you so much for the detailed explanation Chiilaa! You gave much more than I expected lol.
> 
> I feel like I know a little something now haha.
> 
> ...


No worries at all. I enjoy giving full answers lol.


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## EmilyJoy (Dec 30, 2011)

Chiilaa said:


> It could be frame. It is a bit top heavy, which can indicate frame. I can't see any leg white, which is another indication, although she doesn't have a huge amount of face white, so no leg white is not particularly abnormal enough for me to be positive. She is one that would need a test to tell for certain.


Thanks! I will have to get her tested.:wink:


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## SplashedOvero (May 16, 2012)

Heres My Splashed White Gelding.


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