# how to untrain a western pleasure horse?



## countrylady (Jan 18, 2010)

Hey All,
just a question and would love to hear everyones thoughts on this.When a horse has been trained for western pleasure how hard is it to get them out of it ? does anyone know?anyone done it?Tips and advise please  my friend is wanting to use the horse for adult riding club,trail riding ect and she dosnt want to be loping around :lol:


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## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

You don't xD Try doing dressage with him, they are almost identical.


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## kmdstar (Nov 17, 2009)

People work EXTREMELY hard to train horses for western pleasure. To take a trained WP horse and want it to either go back to natural, big movements (assuming it had them before the training) is just not fair to the horse IMO. 

It would be so much easier to buy a different horse that hasn't been trained for WP than to retrain a WP horse.


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## countrylady (Jan 18, 2010)

yes she wants natural movements back.I know it takes alot of time to train them for it ect but she already bought the horse and is asking me for advise and i have no idear.


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## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

I don't have any advice or tips because I've never heard of such a thing. But in reality dressage and WP are alike in so many ways.


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## kmdstar (Nov 17, 2009)

White Foot said:


> I don't have any advice or tips because I've never heard of such a thing. But in reality dressage and WP are alike in so many ways.


LOL me either! If someone doesn't want WP movements...they don't buy a horse trained for WP. simple as that! 

My only advice would be to sell the horse to a nice home and buy another horse that is NOT trained for WP.


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## countrylady (Jan 18, 2010)

I watched her ride it this morning,she was cantering around it was so slow,shes wanting to canter normal,she kicked him on and it was like?what are you asking he was confussed,he got more tempo but wasnt a normal canter.


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## kmdstar (Nov 17, 2009)

countrylady said:


> I watched her ride it this morning,she was cantering around it was so slow,shes wanting to canter normal,she kicked him on and it was like?what are you asking he was confussed,he got more tempo but wasnt a normal canter.


She can kick him all she wants, chances are he's not going to give her the canter she wants, he might not even be CAPABLE of doing so. This horse could very well be BRED for western pleasure, not just trained meaning those could be his natural movements or close to them.


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## countrylady (Jan 18, 2010)

yeah i know what you are saying maybe she needs an instructor to come and tell her all of this as i dont know! I just thought i would ask


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## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

Good luck


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

I have to agree, she needs to find a different horse. Usually WP is bred in or trained in so well it is next to impossible to get them to move out of it. But it is actually possible, I have seen it done! The lady I knew bought an older WP horse and just rode her on trails and trails and trails, eventually her movements went back to close to normal though they were always a little shuffly...


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## countrylady (Jan 18, 2010)

yeah i was just speaking to a lady on the phone that runs the local club and she said of course it can be done and that its easier to untrain a horse then training it and its been done many of times by people she knows.
Now my mate dosnt know what to think :? lol


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

Well what she shouldn't be thinking is that it will be an instant change or anything but a slow and gradual one. It is years of training that has to be undone and rebooted from the ground up. Of course the horse will never walk trot or canter like a non wp horse, but the gaits can be naturalized through time and patience.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

Here is an article by a woman "untraining" a peanut roller and wogger to a more pleasurable pleasure horse. She gives a few tips if you can weed them out...

Amy's Training Diary: Retraining the "Old School" Pleasure Horse


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

> You don't xD Try doing dressage with him, they are almost identical.


Huh? I don't understand this comment at all. My understanding of WP is great, but a dressage horse has to move under itself, tracking up or overtracking, with clear, rhythmic, true gaits - nothing like WP. In order to truly be on the aids even for lower level dresage, a horse has to be both forward and "through", again the opposite of how a WP horse is trained.


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## roro (Aug 14, 2009)

I haven't done that ever nor met anyone person that has done such a thing, so I won't pretend that I have. 
First get off his back and out of any specific gear, just lunge with him, a lunge line, whip, halter, and maybe boots on his legs. First get his transitions sharp. For each gait, you will need to repeat the same steps. Add on pressure at the walk for him to go faster. When he does, release the pressure for a few seconds. When he slows down, put on the pressure again. Do not allow him to go into trot unless you ask him to do so. Gradually, you can ask him to move with more vigor and reach more with his legs. Repeat this at the trot and the canter until his gaits all have a good 'forward' to them. When you get on his back, there is another step. While establishing these forward gaits, you will have to soften him up. Do turns on the forehand and turns on the haunches and keep him from getting heavy on his shoulders by doing sharp turns and serpentines. This should be good for the arena riding. As for the trails, establish the same forward and reaching walk you did in the arena. It is absolutely key that he is not allowed to slow down until you ask him to, you want to make a forward walk the normal walk for him. Just like you wouldn't allow him to bite you, you wouldn't allow him to slow down because he wants to either (not that these situations should have a similar remedy, it is more that these are two issues that have to be fixed by consistency). Again, this is just how I would go about doing this and it may not be ideal for you.


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## dashygirl (Nov 21, 2006)

Honeysuga said:


> The lady I knew bought an older WP horse and just rode her on trails and trails and trails, eventually her movements went back to close to normal though they were always a little shuffly...


This was going to be my suggestion. Take the horse out of the arena, away from everything WP and just ride.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Get the horse out of an arena and do alot of extended trotting. When the horse starts to lope pull it down to the trot and try to extend it again. Posting helps the horse understand also. The key is to ride every day outside of an arena so the horse doesn't see a barrier in front of it all the time. I have helped several horses learn to walk out a little better and travel like a horse and that is how i did it.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

White Foot said:


> I don't have any advice or tips because I've never heard of such a thing. But in reality dressage and WP are alike in so many ways.


I think you should maybe watch more of each because they are not anything alike. Have you ever seen a WP horse doa flying lead change or leg yeild? Or an extended trot? I never have. I think it would be hilariuos if a judge called for an extended trot (or better yet walk) during a wp class.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Just from what I see with my own eyes, (I don't come from either discipline) WP and dressage are not alike. 

Although dressage horses look too constricted and controlled to me, at least they move with impulsion. They give the impression of a powerful horse, finely trained and under control. 

Western pleasure horses (again, just my opinion, please don't get offended) look like a tired old horse looking for a place to lay down. Like they have no get-up-and-go whatsoever. Basically no collection, just a horse that is almost afraid to move forward. 

I ride western. I ride with a loose rein. My horses move slow on a loose rein out on the trail. But if I ever felt that funky 4-beat canter out on the trail, I would do my best to kick him out of it, lol! 

I want to feel some horsepower in the horse's hind end. I want a horse that feels like a sports car, not an old clunker. :mrgreen:


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## countrylady (Jan 18, 2010)

roro and honey thanks for your replies very very helpfull  and much appreciated it really is !
trailhorserider,that is funny what you wrote and i sorta of know what you mean but wont get into that lol


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## I love Arabs (Nov 19, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> I think you should maybe watch more of each because they are not anything alike. Have you ever seen a WP horse doa flying lead change or leg yeild? Or an extended trot? I never have. I think it would be hilariuos if a judge called for an extended trot (or better yet walk) during a wp class.


 
I understand about the Dressage/WP but WP horses are able to leg yeild and do flying changes how do you think people are able to turn obviously not by the rein. As for the extended trot many WP do two day shows and one day it western and one day is english.

Learn more about the disipline please, BEFORE you bash it. Id like to see you get on a WP horse and go its not as easy as it looks!!

As for the OP id recommend NOT changing the horse, But if I was id take him/her out of the ring and just have fun, trot on the trail and just leave the rail.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

They turn but I would bet the majority of WP horses could not do a flying lead change. It's not a requirement in the show so i doubt it is trained on much. Every dressage test I have seen had leg yields and lead changes along with many other things I can't spell. I have spent my fair share of time around WP horses and I believe I could step on one and do as well as anybody else but I couldn't live with myself if I did.

To the OP Sorry if this turns into a WP bash I know that's not what you intended or needed.


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## roro (Aug 14, 2009)

Besides the vast differences between the two disciplines, I would say their progress is different as well. From what I see, dressage is declining (in the competition world) and the messed up horses are the ones winning when it used to be the other way around. In western pleasure, peanut rolling used to be rewarded but it isn't as much anymore.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

Country lady you are very welcome, happy my post helped you.

_From just what I see_, I agree with roro about the dressage/WP directions... but it seems like all disciplines have their low points and dark ages, so maybe someone will assassinate Anky (jokejokejokejoke) or something and dressage will move on...


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## PaintsPwn (Dec 29, 2009)

> They turn but I would bet the majority of WP horses could not do a flying lead change. It's not a requirement in the show *so i doubt* itis trained on much. Every dressage test I have seen had leg yields and lead changes along with many other things I can't spell. I have spent my fair share of time around WP horses and I believe I could step on one and do as well as anybody else but I couldn't live with myself if I did.


Again, speaking of something you have no knowledge about.

All WP horses that I have seen do lead changes, because most of them go right into the horsemanship classes and people want that little extra in case they ever sell the horse, it makes the horse more valuable as a novice/amateur mount. They also do a LOT of leg work to get them more responsive to the leg and that's actually how they slow them down (the way I've seen it done).

​


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## Mira (Aug 4, 2008)

kevinshorses said:


> I think you should maybe watch more of each because they are not anything alike. Have you ever seen a WP horse doa flying lead change or leg yeild? Or an extended trot? I never have. I think it would be hilariuos if a judge called for an extended trot (or better yet walk) during a wp class.


Um... yes? lol! 
What do you think, WP horses are only capable of sticking to the rail? You amuse me. 
TONS of western pleasure horses can do flying lead changes, leg yield, and an extended trot. 
I ride western pleasure, and I don't know how all people go about doing things, but my warm-up for EVERY ride includes A LOT of extended trotting. He also leg yields. At plenty of shows I've been to, the judge calls for an extended jog. You are correct, it's not as extended as you would see in a HUS class/as extended as when I warm-up my horse, but it is an extended _jog_. Considering the point of western pleasure (pleasure to ride), I personally would not be having much fun sitting an extended trot in my western pleasure class.

I think _you_ should watch more of it since I'm honestly quite shocked you're under the illusion that western pleasure horses can't do flying lead changes or an extended trot lol!


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## I love Arabs (Nov 19, 2009)

Mira said:


> Um... yes? lol!
> What do you think, WP horses are only capable of sticking to the rail? You amuse me.
> TONS of western pleasure horses can do flying lead changes, leg yield, and an extended trot.
> I ride western pleasure, and I don't know how all people go about doing things, but my warm-up for EVERY ride includes A LOT of extended trotting. He also leg yields. At plenty of shows I've been to, the judge calls for an extended jog. You are correct, it's not as extended as you would see in a HUS class/as extended as when I warm-up my horse, but it is an extended _jog_. Considering the point of western pleasure (pleasure to ride), I personally would not be having much fun sitting an extended trot in my western pleasure class.
> ...


 
Well said!!!


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

Ok please, do not make this a WP debate thread and stick to the topic that the op intended.


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## countrylady (Jan 18, 2010)

_yes i dont want a debate either ! but yes the horse does do flying changes!_


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

So much for that post then if you didn't want to make it a debate thread.... So country lady, how is she doing, any progress?


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## starlinestables (Nov 24, 2008)

I really know very little about AQHA, western pleasure and HUS but are you trying to take a WP and do dressage? 

What others are saying about extension... google "Artful Investment" and watch his videos as he is a multi world WP and HUS champion stallion.. He freely goes from WP mode to extended HUS mode. He also does lead changes (kinda required for hunters lol). 

Now if you are going to "FURTHER" this horse's training (untraining is just silly) in dressage you start kind of like you would with anything else. From the ground. Set your horse up to succeed by helping with fitness and muscle memory through lunging and constructive use of side reins.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

I think she means making the horses gait more natural (walk trot canter) as opposed to super slow walk jog lope... and possibly bringing the horse into a more natural frame... not necessarily "untraining" it, just training it out of WP movement...


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## FlyinSoLow (Jan 5, 2010)

Its pretty easy to retrain them...

1) carry a dressage whip
2) use the dressage whip


After consistantly correcting the horse and pushing it into a more forward gait, they will get the hint. DO NOT use spurs, use a dressage whip and use it on the rear end of the horse, not down by yor leg, you want them to push forward from behind....

There is a reason AQHA Super Horses can do WP, HUS, and Driving... sure its slow but the Driving and HUS is more forward than WP so if they can move out of HUS they can do it on the trail....

A lot of it is biuld, they are made to travel slow and flat, but in the show ring it is taken to the max, there is no reason you cannot untrain the slow gait as far as I can see.

Horses are very smart, if you are kind and consistant they can learn just about anything.


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## countrylady (Jan 18, 2010)

honey she has been taking the horse out on trail rides only but going ok no changes yet.
flyinsolow thank you thank you thank you  she is coming over tommorow so will show her all of this your post is very helpfull..thanks again


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

At least she is getting her out of the arena that is step one, FSL gave great advice, even if she has really sloppy crazy fast gaits when she starts out, work with it and keep her going, once she is consistently moving more naturally then she can start focusing on slowing her back down a nudge and refining her gaits once again. One thing to add, since she was WP she is probably heavy on the fore hand(more so than a non WP horse, not heavy for a WP horse though lol) so you will wat to work on her getting up under herself.

Hope things get to working better! Keep us updated!


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## FlyinSoLow (Jan 5, 2010)

For a while I would just push her forward, try not to worry about the horses head or if she feels like she is going too fast.

The only correction I would make is if she breaks gait... don't let her canter if you want to trot!

If you could ride her confidently on the trail without messing to much with your reins that would be ideal, however if you have an arena or a round pen that would be great too. Just push her forward, don't direct her to much, all you want is to encourage the forward movment! Once she gets that you can move on with what you want to do!

Just don't let people tell you it is usless, or stupid, or not worth it, or impossbile. It's not, it is very possible; just be consistant!


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

^^^ that is what I was meaning, you made it more clear, TY.


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## FlyinSoLow (Jan 5, 2010)

Honeysuga said:


> ^^^ that is what I was meaning, you made it more clear, TY.


Oh I got that, I just thought the more support and stuff she got the better!


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

Exactly. Wow, we finally agree on something lol.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

FlyinSoLow said:


> For a while I would just push her forward, try not to worry about the horses head or if she feels like she is going too fast.
> 
> The only correction I would make is if she breaks gait... don't let her canter if you want to trot!
> 
> ...


Exactly!! The only thing I would add is that if you get the horse where it doesn't see a fence in front of it all the time then it will have an easier time moving out.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

Also don't expect a miracle, that horse has been thoroughly taught to move like that, it will take time to undo all of that ingrained training. Patience is your ally here.


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## Curly_Horse_CMT (Jun 8, 2008)

I have never heard of this before...should be interesting


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