# Foundation Appaloosas vs. "Regular" Appaloosas



## WyndellaRose

No one? 46 people read it and no one can point me in any direction?


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## iridehorses

Try PMing Faceman. He used to breed Apps.

I just PMed him for you.


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## WyndellaRose

Thanks


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## Faceman

First of all, kudos for your interest in Appys and wanting to someday join those who are dedicated to preserving the breed.

Unlike with Quarterhorses, "foundation" can mean a couple different things with Appys.

To hardline Appy folks like myself, a "foundation" Appy is one that is primarily of true Appy blood that predates the formation of 
ApHC, and displays the conformation, characteristics, and abilities that the breed was intended to display. These Appys are what I consider to be a breed, and are what I term "true" Appys. Appys were developed as work horses - not show horses. Other than their color, they were not bred for aesthetics but rather for their ability. As a result, again other than color, they are not the most aesthetic of horses...thick necks, large heads, rangey - almost scraggly actually, and certainly without the "classic" look of an Arab. Their origin is Spanish and they were bred for versatility. They are arguably the most versatile breed there is, with a muscle composition and conformation conducive to both endurance and performance. As I like to say, an Arab will beat them in endurance, and a Quarterhorse will beat them in strength, but if there were an equine decathalon, it would be next to impossible to beat an Appy - as a breed, of course...individual horses will always differ. Most, although not all, of these horses trace back through horses ApHC originally designated with an "F" prefacing their registration number. Because Appys were bred for versatility rather than specialization, most of the old foundation Appys were not raced or shown successfully, so looking for "famous" horses in their pedigree is likely to prove frutal - there are no Man-O Wars in Appy ancestry, simply because of their versatility.

Then there are "foundation" Appys as designated by ApHC's foundation pedigree designation. These can be true foundation Appys, but generally are nothing more than horses that have a certain percentage of Appy blood. The term "foundation" as ApHC uses the term, is meaningless. Remember that ApHC is not a breed registry, and most of the "Appys" ApHC registers are actually mixed breeds, with many having very little Appy blood at all. All the term "foundation" means as used by ApHC, is mostly Appy - as opposed to the "Appies" that are actually mostly Quarterhorse. As a group, these "foundation" Appys are less versatile than true foundation Appys, although they are still more versatile than most pure breeds, and many of them are strong performers in specific disciplines. They display cleaner lines, a more classical look, and are more aesthetic than the true foundation Appys. Most trace through strong modern Appy lines like the Plaudit, Bright Eyes Brother/Mighty Bright, Goer, Wapiti, Joker B, and Colida lines to name a few.

As far as where to get information, I don't know that I can point you to a specific place. There is a little information all over on the foundation type Appys as defined by ApHC - you just have to assimilate it here and there over the years. As far as true foundation Appys, there is really very limited information available. The U.S. Government was kind enough to exterminate much of the original breed because they so outclassed the dull, plodding cavalry horses, so there isn't a lot of information available beyond information that has been handed down orally. We know what they were, what their origins are, what they were bred and used for, and what they looked like, but most of the details that we take for granted in more modern breeds or in breeds that were developed by more organized cultures with more extensive written languages, are missing. We know from information handed down from generatin to generation, that the Indians were selective breeders and are rumored to have been ruthless cullers. But we also know that there are conformation variances in Appys - likely due to their intended use, with both draft and endurance objectives within the same breed, almost as if there are sub-breeds within the Appy breed. So much remains a mystery, and will likely remain so.

Perhaps the best source of information is from long-time foundatin Appy breeders themselves. You will almost always find a comeradery among foundation Appy breeders, and most of them will be glad to share what information and knowledge they have - it will be far more likely you will have trouble shutting them up than getting them to talk about foundation Appys. Understand, that because of a lack of written records during the time Appys were developed, it is difficult, if not impossible, to separate truth from fiction, or determine if what has been handed down orally is myth or fact or embellished fact.

Because ApHC continues to permit outcrossing, Appys as a breed are rapidly giving way to becoming nothing more than a color variation of a Quarterhorse. There is absolutely nothing wrong with Appy crosses - they can make great horses. I raised Araloosas as well as Appys myself. But the Appy as a separate and distinct breed is in danger of extinction. It is only the efforts of foundation Appy breeders that is preserving the breed. I hope you find the prospect of hel;ing to save the breed appealing as you plan for the future - I would have to see the breed disappear altogether such that the term Appaloosa means nothing more than a color/pattern.

As to foundation Appys having more or better color than mixed breed Appys, there is much we still don't know about LP/PATN genetics. At this point I can't tell you that there is any better or different color expectations out of foundation Appys than mixed breed Appys. But we are still learning, and hopefully the pieces of that puzzle will come together in the not too distant future.

Probably not as much help as you would like, but hope it helps some...


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## CLaPorte432

All i know is that the modern appy is basically a QH with appy coloring. Foundation appys arent "as pretty" as moderns, they have a larger bone structure, minimal mane/tail, and are hardy equines. The moderns you will find with lighter bone structure, little hooves, full manes and tails and a stockier build.

Those are just the physical differences between the two that i have noticed.


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## dbarabians

My understanding is that a lot of Arabian stallions are listed as the sires of Foundation Appoloosas. The founder of the breed used them to refine the original ones. 
I have seen a few 1/2 arabs registered as Appys. Is this still allowed? Shalom


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## Faceman

dbarabians said:


> My understanding is that a lot of Arabian stallions are listed as the sires of Foundation Appoloosas. The founder of the breed used them to refine the original ones.
> I have seen a few 1/2 arabs registered as Appys. Is this still allowed? Shalom


Yes it is still allowed, as long as both the sire and dam are registered and one of them are registered with ApHC. An Arab/Appy cross, being 1/2 Appy can be registered with ApHC as an Appy. Then that horse, when crossed with an Arab, resulting in a 3/4 Arab/1/4 Appy, can be registered as an Appy. Then that horse, when crossed with an Arab, resulting in a 7/8 Arab/1/8 Appy, can be registered as an Appy. And the next, being 1/16 Appy can be registered as an Appy...and so on and so on. You don't see this with Arab outcrossing too much, but do see it with Quarterhorse outcrossing.

ApHC is not a breed registry...


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## WyndellaRose

Wow. That just doesn't sound right. All the best horses I've ever ridden were Appy's. The scariest horse I ever rode was a 23 year old Arabian gelding who took off with me riding him in a western saddle (I was trained in English for 7 years) and that was only my second time in a western saddle....he also jumped 3 downed logs that all the horses on the trail ride with us and were YOUNGER went around (I didn't even fall off...but my thighs were killing me for days after from squeezing them so hard to stay on...And the stupidest *horse* I ever rode was a Welsh Pony....never again. The most stubborn horse I ever rode was an Appy/Perch cross....


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## WyndellaRose

I think when I get time and my son is napping in his crib and not on my arm I'm going to research and contact some foundation appy breeders and ask them for advice and their thoughts. Thanks Faceman!


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## crimsonsky

faceman - i'd just like to say that i love reading any of your appy posts.


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## bsms

As an example, my Appy came from an Appy stallion that was half Arabian. The mare was a purebred Arabian. If I wanted to spend the money, I could register him as an Appy - although by breeding he is 3/4 Arabian. And the 1/4that isn't is mostly from Quarter Horse stock, so he is arguably an Appy colored Arabian/QH mix.

Good horse, tho...with my youngest when she was learning how to post:


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## crimsonsky

my two appaloosas have a lot of "applaoosa" in them as well as QH, TB and Arab. i wish i was still a current ApHC member so i could get my mare's full pedigree. :/


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## tinyliny

What does this horse demonstrate; old style or new?


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## Faceman

Good luck...even if you never raise them, Appys are an intriguing breed with a very interesting history that you will enjoy researching...


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## dbarabians

Thanks for answering my question 
Faceman I did not know that Apps could have that much Arab blood and still be registered.
Next question, I have been told that even breeding spotted apps to each other does not ensure spots. Are there any patterns or way of telling if one is Homozygous? Shalom


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## Faceman

dbarabians said:


> Thanks for answering my question
> Faceman I did not know that Apps could have that much Arab blood and still be registered.
> Next question, I have been told that even breeding spotted apps to each other does not ensure spots. Are there any patterns or way of telling if one is Homozygous? Shalom


Appy color is a simple dominant, so Breeding two colored heterozygous Appys results in 25% solid, 50% heterozygous colored, and 25% homozygous colored.

Homozygous Appys display true few-spot and snowcap phenotypes. Unfortunately, you can have "false" phenotypes of both, so historically the only sure test of homozygosity is observation of progeny when paired with a solid, although I believe they have recently developed an LP test if I am not mistaken...I can't remember off hand it it can identify homozygosity - NDAppy would know...her memory is much better than mine...


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## dbarabians

I think NDAppy is some color genetic genius. Her knowledge is extensive and amazing. I will stick with the basic colours and patterns Bay Gray Black Chesnut, Dun, and Palomino are good enough for me. LOL Thanks again Faceman. Shalom


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## WyndellaRose

To me, that horse above looks to be the newer style I suppose. When I say differences within the patterns here is what I mean...since I do not own these pictures I will post links...and yes I drooled over them all...

"Foundation Appaloosa Patterns"

Blanket: notice lots of spots in the blanket and how close the spots are to each other DECKER

Large spots, spots very close together, other really cool markings that make him really flashy. I'd buy him in a heartbeat if his updated pictures showed great conformation and I had money... DREA ALKHAREAGLE JIM, DREA FOUNDATION APPALOOSA

http://appaloosahillsidefarm.com/Images/2011 Foals/Indy-and-Regal-May-25th-2012-017.jpg This blanketed foal has small spots but there are so many...and the blanket is HUGE compared to a lot of blanketed foals out there today.

Snowcap: Pattern is larger across more of his body than just his rump. Now I've seen horses like this labeled few spot, snow cap, and near leopard but I think he's a snow cap. DECKER

Pattern covers 95% of his body with random black markings within the white. DREA JESTER RED EAGLE, DREA FOUNDATION APPALOOSA

Leopard: Large spots very close together, sometimes it appears they almost overlap each other. More spots than several "modern" leopard appys display and the spots are MUCH larger than the typical leopard. DREA ALKHAREAGLE JIM, DREA FOUNDATION APPALOOSA

PRATT SULLY FIRE, DREA FOUNDATION APPALOOSA gorgeous gorgeous gorgeous!!! Large spots that run together with jagged edges. 

Junior Stallion - Ghostwind Appaloosa - Foundation at its Finest Flair...our very own Ghostwind's junior stallion. While his spots are smaller, he as a TON of them!

These horses tend to have leaner and less muscular builds and do not look like quarter horses with spots. The patterns are "more intense" is what I will say than the appaloosa of today. Also these horses tend to be sorrel, black, or bay. Sometimes tri-color. 

There are plenty of examples out there but these horses are all from 3 select foundation appaloosa breeders. Does anyone else notice the differences? 

Now this isn't meant to be taken as a fact but these are just some things I've noticed in my research color and pattern wise.


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## Faceman

The difference between foundation, modern, and crossbred Appys is a matter of conformation and abilities...not color or patterns. The same variety of color, patterns, and spots can be seen in all types...


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## MangoRoX87

Subbing, so I can read later.


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## WyndellaRose

Yeah Faceman, I know they still carry the same patterns but how the patterns are expressed on occasion is what I am talking about. They just seem different somehow. 

Now, I understand that anyone could post pictures of the more "modern" appaloosas with the same basic pattern type such as snowcap or leopard but to me, the foundations appear different. 

RHR-Dreamers-Echo Another example. I adore this horse's coat color. The way his blanket begins to creep up his neck with that additional super small spotting is not something I've noticed very often on the modern appaloosas. Sure it's there but I scan a LOT of appaloosa sites and I do not see it often.

Stallions Their stallion Dynos Dreamscape has the strangest conformation to me but as I search other foundation appaloosa websites, a lot of their stallions are very similar in their builds. 

I don't know...this is just what I've noticed. Maybe something in the QH, TB, and Arab lines has managed to "tone down" the way patterns are expressed but in the more foundation appaloosas with the purer bloodlines, they are expressing more as they were meant to. Who knows? There is still a lot to learn about Appaloosa genetics.


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## texasgal

Ya'll are killin' me with these pictures ..

My heart just still belongs to these spotted creatures .. They are sturdy, loyal, hardworking, colorful animals.

*sigh* .... eye candy.


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## Spotted Image

This is all neat to me too, as I just got an Appaloosa Mare, she is all Appaloosa up until 4th generation. I don't know what that means she is or not. And their is no plans to breed her, but if I did how the would effect the foal, she would only be breed to another Appaloosa. I'm learning about the breed still.


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## Corporal

*FYI. 1980's Appy Breed Fight*

Many appalousa breeders fought in the 1980's over what a "real" appalousa was, and who should be registered. They came to a consensus and now, all is calm in their breeding community. If you research back far enough you will find literature about this.
You know that the Nez Perce tribe (now in Idaho, I think), bred mustangs with spots for their war horses. After that, it gets a little muddy.
I refuse to get involved, but I thought you ought to know.


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## Faceman

Corporal said:


> Many appalousa breeders fought in the 1980's over what a "real" appalousa was, and who should be registered. They came to a consensus and now, all is calm in their breeding community. If you research back far enough you will find literature about this.
> You know that the Nez Perce tribe (now in Idaho, I think), bred mustangs with spots for their war horses. After that, it gets a little muddy.
> I refuse to get involved, but I thought you ought to know.


A couple of corrections...

I was one of those that fought in the 80's with ApHC. There was no consensus, and all is not calm in the Appy breeding community. ApHC sold out the breed, and many of us will never condone the ApHC's registration practices. There was a viable breeding population of Appys in the early 80's and the decision was whether to close the registry to outside breeding, reduce outside breeding to Quarterhorses, Thoroughbreds, and Arabs, or leave it wide open as it had been. Influenced by the big money breeders, the decision was made to permit the outcrossing to Quarterhorses, Arabs, and Thoroughbreds, which were the three largest registries at the time, in order to increase membership and build the ApHC into a major registry. In so doing, ApHC has gone a long way to destroying the breed through continuing dilution of Appy genetics. It is only through the efforts of a relative handful of foundation Appy breeders that the breed is surviving.

As to the "mustangs", more accurately the Nez Perce started with Spanish stock - not what we normally think of as mustangs except arguably Spanish Mustangs. Remember the timing - the Nez Perce were breeding Appys before there were any other horses introduced into the West other than what the Spanish brought over, so the variety of breeds that have gone into Mustang origins had not yet crossed the Mississippi...


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## NdAppy

There is an LP/CSNB test available through Animal Genetics now. Appaloosa LP and CSNB Testing

I know that it will tell you if a horse is homozygous, heterozyous or not carrying LP at all. What they don't have a test for yet is PATN.


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## Curly_Horse_CMT

My mother had a old-fashioned Appaloosa gelding when she was in her late teens. He had the standard Appy qualities: upright mane, stripped hooves, raw, plain head, leggy, scrappy tail and the spotted mottling around the eyes. I would take a foundation Appy any day over what most people are breeding now. Sure, the spots on a Appy are great, but it is the loyalty, heart and endurance beneath the spots that make up the whole package. I want a true Appy, not one that is a AQHA with spots on it's rump.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GhostwindAppaloosa

subbing


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## Cowgirls Boots

Subbing!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faceman

Uh oh...Ghostwind has subbed. I've got to cut out the BS now...:rofl:


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## christabelle

If it is merely a color registry, can I register my Appaloosa mustang? Is she considered an Appaloosa at all?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faceman

christabelle said:


> If it is merely a color registry, can I register my Appaloosa mustang? Is she considered an Appaloosa at all?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not with ApHC without spaying her for a hardship registration, which you wouldn't want to do.

How about a picture of your Appy mustang?


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## QHDragon

Faceman said:


> A couple of corrections...
> 
> I was one of those that fought in the 80's with ApHC. There was no consensus, and all is not calm in the Appy breeding community. ApHC sold out the breed, and many of us will never condone the ApHC's registration practices. There was a viable breeding population of Appys in the early 80's and the decision was whether to close the registry to outside breeding, reduce outside breeding to Quarterhorses, Thoroughbreds, and Arabs, or leave it wide open as it had been. Influenced by the big money breeders, the decision was made to permit the outcrossing to Quarterhorses, Arabs, and Thoroughbreds, which were the three largest registries at the time, in order to increase membership and build the ApHC into a major registry. In so doing, ApHC has gone a long way to destroying the breed through continuing dilution of Appy genetics. It is only through the efforts of a relative handful of foundation Appy breeders that the breed is surviving.
> 
> As to the "mustangs", more accurately the Nez Perce started with Spanish stock - not what we normally think of as mustangs except arguably Spanish Mustangs. Remember the timing - the Nez Perce were breeding Appys before there were any other horses introduced into the West other than what the Spanish brought over, so the variety of breeds that have gone into Mustang origins had not yet crossed the Mississippi...


Personally I prefer the new type Appaloosa over the old type, the old type just seemed really course and not very athletic for today's sports and not well suited to keep up with today's market. However, I find it incredibly sad the amount of solid bred appaloosas and I think ApHC should have/needs to do what APHA did, making separate classes for solid bred Appaloosas and more strongly rewarding Appaloosas that actually look like an Appaloosa. That's just my two cents. 

Anyway, just for fun, a couple pictures of my Appaloosa. She falls more under the new type, her sire was a halter horse and her dam comes from HUS lines.

Maggie Bright Appaloosa 




























One of her son's showing the very classic Skye Expression. She passed along to all of her foals her infamous stink eye. 








He has done extremely well on the circuit, as have all her foals.


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## christabelle

Not a problem, Here is Galaxy... looking rather annoyed with me.


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## GhostwindAppaloosa

I'll be honest there are some modern appys that I like.. but they tend to look more the type of my appys. They are the kind of horses that are very versatile and athletic. Can excel in several disciplines and not just one. Can do halter, western, and english and compete. Can carry me on a 15 mile trail ride barefoot without any issues. They are hardy animals and will do anything to please you. The stallions can be walked on lead WITHOUT a chain next to mares without them being a danger to you or others. These animals deserve to be stallions and pass on their great temperments to their offspring. 

we went to equine affair this weekend and had a great response from the public. Here is a small sampling of our "ugly" "badly conformed" foundation appaloosas who have very little if any influence of other breeds. 


























































now. who wants a foundation appy ?


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## Faceman

QHDragon said:


> Personally I prefer the new type Appaloosa over the old type, the old type just seemed really course and not very athletic for today's sports and not well suited to keep up with today's market. However, I find it incredibly sad the amount of solid bred appaloosas and I think ApHC should have/needs to do what APHA did, making separate classes for solid bred Appaloosas and more strongly rewarding Appaloosas that actually look like an Appaloosa. That's just my two cents.
> 
> Anyway, just for fun, a couple pictures of my Appaloosa. She falls more under the new type, her sire was a halter horse and her dam comes from HUS lines.
> 
> Maggie Bright Appaloosa


Nice pedigree. You don't see a lot of Mighty Peavy grandbabies around any more.



As to the solids, I don't have anything against the Appy solids - after all, two colored Appys can produce a solid as long as they aren't homozygous...at least those have Appy blood. But what I don't like are the solid ones that are mostly QH - they have neither the blood nor the color. They can be very good horses, but it's silly to register them as Appys...


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## GhostwindAppaloosa

I absolutely hate the amount of crossbreeding going on. I understand the reasoning behind it when the breed registry started but many of these "modern" appys dont have the color or the ancestry behind them. They are quarter horses. The national show is a joke. It looks just like congress. Bunch of brown horses.


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## Faceman

GhostwindAppaloosa said:


> I absolutely hate the amount of crossbreeding going on. I understand the reasoning behind it when the breed registry started but many of these "modern" appys dont have the color or the ancestry behind them. They are quarter horses. The national show is a joke. It looks just like congress. Bunch of brown horses.


Yeah, when you figure the odds of a solid Appy among heterozygous Appys is 25%, and then figure in the fewspots and snowcaps that are bred, you shouldn't have any more than 20% solid Appys at most, and probably more like in the 17% or 18% range, so only 1 in 5 (or less) Appys should be solid, and as color is not a halter or performance factor, less than 1 in 5 Appys at a national show should be solid. Of course when you have an Appy cross, the odds of a solid are twice as high...


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## christabelle

Ghostwind, your appys are to-die-f
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## christabelle

Not sure what I did above... Sorry.

Ghostwind, your appys are to-die-for. Wish I could get my hands on a leopard like yours! I do like my mustang's unique coat, but I think she will "color out" so to speak, and then look like a varnish roan. I prefer the old type of appy. Quarter horses suck at endurance  no offence, just too much of the wrong sort of muscle.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dbarabians

Infusing outside blood to improve and refine a breed is one thing.
Yet allowing multiple outside crosses dilutes the breed.
I do not understand allowing horses that are 75% TB, Arab, QH, tobe registed as full bloods.
The QH, Paint and Appys are guilty fo this. The first 2 do not allow Arabs.
I have a couple of mares here that are registed as 1/2 arabs. They are in fact 7/8 or more. even a couple of generation from now when the colts are 99.9 5 arab they will still be registered as 1/2. Shalom


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## GhostwindAppaloosa

dbarabians said:


> Infusing outside blood to improve and refine a breed is one thing.
> Yet allowing multiple outside crosses dilutes the breed.
> I do not understand allowing horses that are 75% TB, Arab, QH, tobe registed as full bloods.
> The QH, Paint and Appys are guilty fo this. The first 2 do not allow Arabs.
> I have a couple of mares here that are registed as 1/2 arabs. They are in fact 7/8 or more. even a couple of generation from now when the colts are 99.9 5 arab they will still be registered as 1/2. Shalom


 you are correct. when aphc allows a QH to be bred with a registered appy and calls it an appy that horse has 50% appy blood. They will than allow that now registered appy to be crossed AGAIN with another QH and STILL register it as an appy. and so on and so on


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## Chyna1973

*Field of Appy's*

I currently live on property that is grazed by a few herds of what would likely be described as foundation Appys. Most are not tame but are friendly. There are many different color/pattern variations and the majority of them seem to be a little smaller, well put together and have short mane and tails.

There is one I am working with currently to try to break enough to sell. The woman that owns them is trying to reduce the herd size.

Anyway, this is a great resource and I appreciate the info being exchanged. I was originally looking for an answer to why their tails are so short lol and stumbled on this thread.

Thanks all!


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## WyndellaRose

Ghostwind, I'll buy a horse from you in a second once I finally have the money. I went ahead and set up a very fancy savings account (also known as an envelope in a locked cabinet) to start saving. So far...I've got $10...so I have a really long way to go but I have a plan at least and I started!


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## WyndellaRose

harley

This is Harley. She is 93% foundation bred. Look at her spot pattern. While she is technically a bay leopard, since when does a really cool unique pattern like this show up on the QH's that are called Appy's now a days? I'm sure someone could find one to show me but to the best of MY knowledge, I've never seen a "modern" appy with this awesome expression of the leopard gene. 

Oh and she's due to foal soon and I wish the $10 I have saved would be enough!

Oh and Ghostwind, I can't wait to see what Flair produces for you in a few years...if he turns out to be a great producer which I assume he will, I want a filly for my one day breeding program!


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## Faceman

WyndellaRose said:


> harley
> 
> This is Harley. She is 93% foundation bred. Look at her spot pattern. While she is technically a bay leopard, since when does a really cool unique pattern like this show up on the QH's that are called Appy's now a days? I'm sure someone could find one to show me but to the best of MY knowledge, I've never seen a "modern" appy with this awesome expression of the leopard gene.
> 
> Oh and she's due to foal soon and I wish the $10 I have saved would be enough!
> 
> Oh and Ghostwind, I can't wait to see what Flair produces for you in a few years...if he turns out to be a great producer which I assume he will, I want a filly for my one day breeding program!


Interesting...Toby IV only sired 8 foals, so there aren't a lot of horses out there with a Toby I, Toby II, Toby III, Toby IV line - that's a pretty exclusive club.

For those who don't know, all 4 Toby's were national champions...like father like son...like son...like son...


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## WyndellaRose

Oh that reminds me! If I am going to get into foundation appaloosas one day, I should know the more prominant lines shouldn't I? Anyone care to take a stab at that question? 

Faceman, I love Harley. Lisa at Palisades just purchased her recently I believe and Crossover now owns the stallion she is bred to!


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## Faceman

Ghostwind, why didn't you buy that mare?...


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## Bandita1

I'm a bit late in adding to this discussion but as I was reading along I began clicking on the links WyndellaRose posted earlier showing the various color patterns and low and behold I see you used my very own horse as an example for a near leopard! As you can see, his updated picture shows his conformation to be above standards. This is the second horse we have bought from Milton Decker. I couldn't be happier!


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## candandy49

Faceman, in your post #5 of this thread I am referring back to your mention of Colida in that thread and I saw in another post a pedigree that had Kolida(Colida) in the pedigree. I personally knew Colida and his owner Bill Cass of Welch,OK as I am originally from that NE corner of Oklahoma. Colida is in the Appaloosa Hall of Fame as is his owner of record. There is/has been some speculation as to the parentage of Colida, because he was reportedly born to solid QH pedigreed sire and dam. Meaning that he was a throw back in lineage to an earlier unknown foundation Appaloosa bloodline. Or on further speculation some think on speculation that one of Colida's parents was an Appaloosa stallion on premises, but never DNA tested to prove parentage. Nonetheless, Colida continued to stamp his "Get of Sire" on to his sons and daughters.


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## ghostwindrider

*Foundation Appaloosas, the general history doesn't tell the story...*

WyndellaRose,

Hi, i'm new to this site. I am a foundation appaloosa nut that has done research on them with the Niimiipoo, Lakota-Sioux and a few other Indian tribes that bred them. The modern version of the foundation appaloosa and appaloosa history is mostly crap. Sorry for being blunt. What you find in print, and most all of what you read on the internet, depending on the source, is inaccurate.

I have 3 foundation stallions. Dream Makers Rio has had over 60 spectacular foals as a herd stallion since 2001. He is in Idaho now with me. Their temperatment and willingness is spectacular. I ride all my horses except Black Hawk bareback, they've never been in a round pen, never been on the end of a lunge line, i'm a non-traditional "trainer" and don't see the need for most of the theory of training that exists now. 

I don't mean to insult anyone, but appaloosa do not cross well with any breed. Foundation pure bloodlines are amazing and there are few of them. Color is not necessarily the defining trait, but the bloodlines and percentages are. I have a 7 year old gelding that is solid coal black, but he had two spectuacular leopard babies that are with the Lakota Sioux in Canada, one of them had his first 7 foals this year. 

I could go on and on, now I see that this is an old post, hope you get a chance to read this, ask away if you have any questions. One of my horses is a true Ghostwind Stallion, through three different bloodlines and characteristics. They are amazing. 

Windrunner is a three year old stallion, we ride bareback and with a saddle, with reins and a snaffle or with only a rope halter, or with a war bridle. I'll post a pic or two of him with my profile.

Take care,
War Horse Appaloosas


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## GhostwindAppaloosa

Faceman said:


> Ghostwind, why didn't you buy that mare?...


 what mare? IM pretty selective in the mares i add to my breeding program


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## GhostwindAppaloosa

beautiful 100% FPD colt we had born this spring


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## dbarabians

I am not overly fond of Leopard Apps.
Those spots are a litte too distracting for my taste.
The pictures of these horses though do open my mind to the possibilty of having one.
I like my Arabs too much but the thought is there. Shalom


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## grayshell38

Subbing so I can ask questions later...


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## FlyGap

Ghostwindrider I'm dying for more photo's!

This thread is fantastic. I love these horses to death, I've never owned one, haven't had the right opportunity, but ridden several. My grandfather bred/raised/trained Appaloosas for over 50 years, horses in general most of his life. Bob (he didn't like being called grandpa, HIS NAME WAS BOB!) recently passed so my reference on everything horse is locked in memories and in dozens of old photo albums of spectacular spotted horses and fancy "dudes" in show clothes. My dad was raised (literally) by a 30+ year old Appaloosa. He and my Grandma still tear up when they talk about her. I could listen to (read) this all day.
Thanks!


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## GhostwindAppaloosa

yearling 100% FPD stud colt


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## Faceman

candandy49 said:


> Faceman, in your post #5 of this thread I am referring back to your mention of Colida in that thread and I saw in another post a pedigree that had Kolida(Colida) in the pedigree. I personally knew Colida and his owner Bill Cass of Welch,OK as I am originally from that NE corner of Oklahoma. Colida is in the Appaloosa Hall of Fame as is his owner of record. There is/has been some speculation as to the parentage of Colida, because he was reportedly born to solid QH pedigreed sire and dam. Meaning that he was a throw back in lineage to an earlier unknown foundation Appaloosa bloodline. Or on further speculation some think on speculation that one of Colida's parents was an Appaloosa stallion on premises, but never DNA tested to prove parentage. Nonetheless, Colida continued to stamp his "Get of Sire" on to his sons and daughters.


Neat...it is always great to know one of the great legends. I haven't been that fortunate. I did get to spend some time with Secretariat in the paddock area before his Preakness run, but that is about it, and they wouldn't let me put my hands on him, which I horribly wanted to do...


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## Faceman

GhostwindAppaloosa said:


> what mare? IM pretty selective in the mares i add to my breeding program


I was referring to Harley, mentioned a couple of pages back, that recent sold...


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## lilkitty90

Appys continue to amaze me daily! i am loving to read all this and learn the information


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## rustyrider

*Foundation appy lover here*

Hi fellow appy lovers. 
I stumbled onto this thread while searching for a forum specifically for the foundation horse owners. So even though this is an old thread, I'm hoping I can build a relationship with like minded folks. Here is a brief summary of my history:
I bought my first horse over thirty years ago, a foundation appy few spot that went back to TobyII and Simcoe's Sarcee. He carried me in the Wa. cascade mountains for twenty years flawlessly. 
Over the years I had several appies and honestly they could not hold a candle to my first. So I went gaited with a couple Kentucky Mt horses that did not hold up for me. Ring bone and DSLD led them to their early death. 
So in my search for a foundation appy shuffler, I was given a 12y/o appy gelding who had to be started since he had never been ridden. He is from a Frank Scripter line and I can say now that I have never worked with a more willing and giving horse. No he is not gaited but has a nice fast walk and willing to go at any pace in any position in the string. I'M SOLD!!!!
I doubt I could ever go back to a regular horse.
I hope to finish my riding career seeking foundation horses who, for whatever reason, have never had the chance at a real useful life. I trail ride in the mountains and ride a couple hundred hours a year.
Do any of you breeders see the shuffle in your horses and how often?That is my next quest to find a loud colored shuffler. Hope to hear from you all soon. Rusty


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## WyndellaRose

Ghost wind Appaloosa had a stunning leopard colt born this year that is faired I believe! They are on here and also have a website. Welcome to the conversation!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faceman

Those in the know, know there is nothing like a pure Appy (not a spotted Quarterhorse) on rugged trails. Although I don't breed any longer, I bred Appys and Arab/Appy crosses for endurance mountain work, and nothing holds a candle to them. As I used to say, go on a 30 mile run with me over steep and rugged mountain game trails, and I'll have dinner waiting for you when you and your (insert breed) limp into camp after dark...


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## Rebelsmile

I have one of the "regular" bred race bred QH/Appys. I do have to agree all he has is the appy colour look. The rest is from of him is from QH/TB race lines he has. Any foundation that I personally know he has from the QH foundation side of things. I'm not sure if he has foundation appoolosa in him. I do know he has a wonderfull personality, and extremely laid back type horse. I'd be glad to know who exactly who all the apploosas are in his bloodlines.

Rebels Goodyear Appaloosa


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## aforred

Rebel, your horse has a lot of halter type blood, and if he hasn't been tested for HYPP, you should do that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dbarabians

I too wanted to say that is not a race bred Appy.
All that Impresive blood would really slow him down.
I recall that an Appalossa syndicate owned Impressive at the first of his career.
He might have a greater impact in that breed than in the QH.
Due to the smaller numbers of horses registered. Shalom


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## EmilyJoy

Subbing because I like the Appy breed... I have a weakness for pure black Appies with a lovely snow white blanket over their rumps....Maybe I'll have to find one for my next horse!


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## Rebelsmile

he has been tested, i made sure of that before we bought him what his results are. He is N/N gelding, he's actully pretty fast he runs barrels normally in 16 to 17 second runs depending on the arena. He is extremly hard headed horse thats for sure.


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## GhostwindAppaloosa

rustyrider said:


> Hi fellow appy lovers.
> I stumbled onto this thread while searching for a forum specifically for the foundation horse owners. So even though this is an old thread, I'm hoping I can build a relationship with like minded folks. Here is a brief summary of my history:
> I bought my first horse over thirty years ago, a foundation appy few spot that went back to TobyII and Simcoe's Sarcee. He carried me in the Wa. cascade mountains for twenty years flawlessly.
> Over the years I had several appies and honestly they could not hold a candle to my first. So I went gaited with a couple Kentucky Mt horses that did not hold up for me. Ring bone and DSLD led them to their early death.
> So in my search for a foundation appy shuffler, I was given a 12y/o appy gelding who had to be started since he had never been ridden. He is from a Frank Scripter line and I can say now that I have never worked with a more willing and giving horse. No he is not gaited but has a nice fast walk and willing to go at any pace in any position in the string. I'M SOLD!!!!
> I doubt I could ever go back to a regular horse.
> I hope to finish my riding career seeking foundation horses who, for whatever reason, have never had the chance at a real useful life. I trail ride in the mountains and ride a couple hundred hours a year.
> Do any of you breeders see the shuffle in your horses and how often?That is my next quest to find a loud colored shuffler. Hope to hear from you all soon. Rusty


Hey Rusty! Welcome! We breed appys. mostly frank scripter lines and your right. they are the MOST willing and giving horse you can find  I love them all. We've had several shufflers born this year and our stallion and several of our mares are gaited. Here are two photos of our shuffling colts born this year 
Check out our website too : www.ghostwindappaloosa.com


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## GhostwindAppaloosa

We also do a few paso/appy crosses a year that are gaited. Here is our one colt who is heavily gaited and we have another due the end of august that should also be a loud leopard


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## Failbhe

subbing 

My dad had a foundation appaloosa when I was a kid. I didn't ride her very much but I remember she would go through anything, had incredible instincts for working with cows, and would be an absolute demon to any rider who didn't know what they were doing. Dad loved her to bits.


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## GhostwindAppaloosa

Failbhe said:


> subbing
> 
> My dad had a foundation appaloosa when I was a kid. I didn't ride her very much but I remember she would go through anything, had incredible instincts for working with cows, and would be an absolute demon to any rider who didn't know what they were doing. Dad loved her to bits.


 Ive got one similar to that. I've found they are incredibly SMART horses and appreciate a rider on their level!


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## ButtInTheDirt

I absolutely love the old type of Appaloosa. It almost makes me sad to see an App with a full mane and tail because that isn't what they were bred to be. I've heard that people bred Apps with QHs/TBs because they had to much stamina and not enough speed? I'm not entirely sure, nor am I as experienced as some so I'd love to here if there is any validity to this. 

I have an overgrown Pony of the Americas gelding who is a very handsome boy when it comes to color. But just looking at the length of his back reminds me why I don't really like a lot of stock type horse bred just for halter. He still holds his own but sometimes it worries me, and I can't imagine a horse with any longer of a back being sound. I love my boy to death, but it is my dream to someday own a real App. But until then I have my very versatile and intelligent boy, Moe. I know his pedigree but I really don't know what I have here other than a horse just as loud as his color. 

MM MAGS SUPERSTAR


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## GhostwindAppaloosa

big boy!!!!!!


ive got foundation appaloosas and ALL of them have beautiful manes and tails. I know that the rat mane and tail are often found..but honestly.. most foundaiton horses i have seen have beautiful manes and tails.


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## Failbhe

I like the 'rat' mane and tail. It's different and distinctive... and my Dad's had that, so it's what I grew up with. To me, apps with full manes and tails look strange.


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## MangoRoX87

ButtInTheDirt, I'm pretty sure stock horses are bred to have shorter backs haha I know it's something a lot of breeders seem to look for
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ButtInTheDirt

I know ideally that is what they look for but I've seen far too many whose backs are crazy unproportionate. It seemed to be more with halter horses? Well bred working horses who were made to carry a rider don't seem to have it. It could be the illusion of having muscular quarters and being thinner in the barrel. Not sure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GhostwindAppaloosa

i JUST saw an appy stallion at stud the other day that i had to look at the photo twice.. all i could think was.. OMG that back is INCREDIBLY long. I'll have to try to find it


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## GhostwindAppaloosa

is it just me or is this incredibly long?


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## crimsonsky

wowza that looks long to me! O_O


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## Faceman

I think it is long, but not overly so - there is an optical illusion going on there due to the short neck.

Take your hand and cover up the neck and look at the back - yes it's a long back, but again not overly so. 

But man, with the proportionately short neck, it looks long as heck...


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## GhostwindAppaloosa

Faceman said:


> I think it is long, but not overly so - there is an optical illusion going on there due to the short neck.
> 
> Take your hand and cover up the neck and look at the back - yes it's a long back, but again not overly so.
> 
> But man, with the proportionately short neck, it looks long as heck...


i dunno even with the neck covered it still appears to be pretty long...


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## Rachel1786

I only kinda skimmed over this thread since it's 9 pages, but I'm curious what breeding my appy looks like. He came from new holland auction and before that I recently he can from a local trail stable(he came from about 10 minutes away when I got him 2 hours away). Originally he came from the mid-west, previous owners said they think Illinois(not that that matters). So I have no pedigree on him. Here are some pics.


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## luv2ride

Hi all,
My second horse was a foundation type appy. I fell in love with him the minute I was him. He was a stud horse and everyone told me that it would be bad to by him since I was a novice but I went with my heart. He was so gentle a kid could ride him, supervised of course. I rode him on trails and took him to a few parades.My kids 4H leader would do grooming demos with him cause the kids could climb over him under him brush him bathe him clean his feet and he wouldn't move a muscle. The guy I bought him from used him for breeding and also team roped on him. He was about 15 hands high. He was a blue roan with a blanket and had big black "peacock" spots. I would love to find another one like him. He died about 10 years ago and i still miss him.


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## dbarabians

Ghostwind that back does look longer than it is I think.
As faceman wisely pointed out his neck is short and the white adds to the topline.
Then again his pattern is very distracting to me.
One of the reasons i avoid Appys and pintos. Shalom


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## Faceman

Rachel1786 said:


> I only kinda skimmed over this thread since it's 9 pages, but I'm curious what breeding my appy looks like. He came from new holland auction and before that I recently he can from a local trail stable(he came from about 10 minutes away when I got him 2 hours away). Originally he came from the mid-west, previous owners said they think Illinois(not that that matters). So I have no pedigree on him. Here are some pics.


Nothing is jumping out at me...I can't identify anything in him that points to a particular line with which I am familiar. If I had to guess, I would guess he has a lot of foundation in him, as many bred in Illinois do...


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## GhostwindAppaloosa

Faceman said:


> Nothing is jumping out at me...I can't identify anything in him that points to a particular line with which I am familiar. If I had to guess, I would guess he has a lot of foundation in him, as many bred in Illinois do...


 
pretty boy


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## luv2ride

He looks so much like an Appy I used to own. Only difference was he was a blue roan with a blanket and spots. The head is so much like his was. I believe he was born in Indiana and was sold as a yearling to a man in Oklahoma. He owned him till he was 15 and moved to Oregon. That is where I got him. His registered name was Kaiser Do Snohawk. He was mostly foundation stock I know his grand sire's name was Snowman. He died about 10 years ago. I thought I still had his papers but when I looked for them I couldn't find them. He was the best horse I ever owned. Would love to be able to find someone who had the same bloodlines. BTW he was a stallion. I didn't use him for breeding and now I regret it. If anyone sees this post and knows anything about his bloodlines please let me know.

I would have bought the horse you have in a heartbeat reg or not.


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## WyndellaRose

It was great to revisit this page. I re-learned a few things and man am I excited to keep learning more...especially now that I have a story idea....hmmmm....research time!

Faceman and Ghostwind...I have another thread over in the horse talk forum I could use a comment or two on...http://www.horseforum.com/horse-talk/solid-book-concept-now-i-need-136313/#post1667214


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## rustyrider

*Knowledge*

WyndellaRose,
A lot has been written about the Ghostwind horses and most of it I suppose has been Indian folk lore. How much is actually fact is anyone's guess. I am very interested in anything you can drum up as fact about these magnificent animals. Please feel free to share any info you find. 
Since taking on the gelding pictured earlier in this thread, I have felt a strong draw to be more involved with this line of appy that I have decided to take his younger brother, both grand sired by Solar flair eclat. This desire feels almost like the horses are calling me to them. Or it may just be my imagination. 
You may want to contact Leopard appaloosas.com and talk to Cheryl in person. She has been a wealth of information to me. Also a Ghostwind appaloosa in Saskatewan, CA. Very willing to share info and talk about Appaloosas. 
Good luck in your research and I look forward to learning from your story.
BTW,, Apache now has over 60 hours under saddle on trails and is doing well. Starting to pick up leg and neck reining ques. Rusty


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## my2geldings

Faceman said:


> First of all, kudos for your interest in Appys and wanting to someday join those who are dedicated to preserving the breed.
> 
> Unlike with Quarterhorses, "foundation" can mean a couple different things with Appys.
> 
> To hardline Appy folks like myself, a "foundation" Appy is one that is primarily of true Appy blood that predates the formation of
> ApHC, and displays the conformation, characteristics, and abilities that the breed was intended to display. These Appys are what I consider to be a breed, and are what I term "true" Appys. Appys were developed as work horses - not show horses. Other than their color, they were not bred for aesthetics but rather for their ability. As a result, again other than color, they are not the most aesthetic of horses...thick necks, large heads, rangey - almost scraggly actually, and certainly without the "classic" look of an Arab. Their origin is Spanish and they were bred for versatility. They are arguably the most versatile breed there is, with a muscle composition and conformation conducive to both endurance and performance. As I like to say, an Arab will beat them in endurance, and a Quarterhorse will beat them in strength, but if there were an equine decathalon, it would be next to impossible to beat an Appy - as a breed, of course...individual horses will always differ. Most, although not all, of these horses trace back through horses ApHC originally designated with an "F" prefacing their registration number. Because Appys were bred for versatility rather than specialization, most of the old foundation Appys were not raced or shown successfully, so looking for "famous" horses in their pedigree is likely to prove frutal - there are no Man-O Wars in Appy ancestry, simply because of their versatility.
> 
> Then there are "foundation" Appys as designated by ApHC's foundation pedigree designation. These can be true foundation Appys, but generally are nothing more than horses that have a certain percentage of Appy blood. The term "foundation" as ApHC uses the term, is meaningless. Remember that ApHC is not a breed registry, and most of the "Appys" ApHC registers are actually mixed breeds, with many having very little Appy blood at all. All the term "foundation" means as used by ApHC, is mostly Appy - as opposed to the "Appies" that are actually mostly Quarterhorse. As a group, these "foundation" Appys are less versatile than true foundation Appys, although they are still more versatile than most pure breeds, and many of them are strong performers in specific disciplines. They display cleaner lines, a more classical look, and are more aesthetic than the true foundation Appys. Most trace through strong modern Appy lines like the Plaudit, Bright Eyes Brother/Mighty Bright, Goer, Wapiti, Joker B, and Colida lines to name a few.
> 
> As far as where to get information, I don't know that I can point you to a specific place. There is a little information all over on the foundation type Appys as defined by ApHC - you just have to assimilate it here and there over the years. As far as true foundation Appys, there is really very limited information available. The U.S. Government was kind enough to exterminate much of the original breed because they so outclassed the dull, plodding cavalry horses, so there isn't a lot of information available beyond information that has been handed down orally. We know what they were, what their origins are, what they were bred and used for, and what they looked like, but most of the details that we take for granted in more modern breeds or in breeds that were developed by more organized cultures with more extensive written languages, are missing. We know from information handed down from generatin to generation, that the Indians were selective breeders and are rumored to have been ruthless cullers. But we also know that there are conformation variances in Appys - likely due to their intended use, with both draft and endurance objectives within the same breed, almost as if there are sub-breeds within the Appy breed. So much remains a mystery, and will likely remain so.
> 
> Perhaps the best source of information is from long-time foundatin Appy breeders themselves. You will almost always find a comeradery among foundation Appy breeders, and most of them will be glad to share what information and knowledge they have - it will be far more likely you will have trouble shutting them up than getting them to talk about foundation Appys. Understand, that because of a lack of written records during the time Appys were developed, it is difficult, if not impossible, to separate truth from fiction, or determine if what has been handed down orally is myth or fact or embellished fact.
> 
> Because ApHC continues to permit outcrossing, Appys as a breed are rapidly giving way to becoming nothing more than a color variation of a Quarterhorse. There is absolutely nothing wrong with Appy crosses - they can make great horses. I raised Araloosas as well as Appys myself. But the Appy as a separate and distinct breed is in danger of extinction. It is only the efforts of foundation Appy breeders that is preserving the breed. I hope you find the prospect of hel;ing to save the breed appealing as you plan for the future - I would have to see the breed disappear altogether such that the term Appaloosa means nothing more than a color/pattern.
> 
> As to foundation Appys having more or better color than mixed breed Appys, there is much we still don't know about LP/PATN genetics. At this point I can't tell you that there is any better or different color expectations out of foundation Appys than mixed breed Appys. But we are still learning, and hopefully the pieces of that puzzle will come together in the not too distant future.
> 
> Probably not as much help as you would like, but hope it helps some...


Thanks for the info. I knew nothing about Appys, so it was a great read being we just bought a foundation mare. Thanks so much!


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## ButternutSquash

I'm new here too and I've never owned my own horse( i deffinitely want one... or 12) and there was an appy i used to ride that really sounds like she's a foundation. My owner got her as an abuse rescue but she was the sweetest horse on the ground you could wish for. She once walked patiently with and elderly woman leaning against her all the way from the back field.

She was a bit of a speed demon, always wanting to go ears pinned back most of the time. but she was extremely sure footed and i once watched as a girl tried to tire her out by galloping up and down a huge hill on her but it never fazed her she just kept chugging. 

I dont know anything about her back ground but she certainly lookid the part.

I couldnt find any other pictures of her but she the third from the right and you cant see but she has a black and white tail thats only a few inches long at the tip of her tail bone and her mane is the same and not really any kind of fore lock and big striped feet

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t375/butternutsquash94/e5c9aedb.jpg


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## Faceman

ButternutSquash said:


> I'm new here too and I've never owned my own horse( i deffinitely want one... or 12) and there was an appy i used to ride that really sounds like she's a foundation. My owner got her as an abuse rescue but she was the sweetest horse on the ground you could wish for. She once walked patiently with and elderly woman leaning against her all the way from the back field.
> 
> She was a bit of a speed demon, always wanting to go ears pinned back most of the time. but she was extremely sure footed and i once watched as a girl tried to tire her out by galloping up and down a huge hill on her but it never fazed her she just kept chugging.
> 
> I dont know anything about her back ground but she certainly lookid the part.
> 
> I couldnt find any other pictures of her but she the third from the right and you cant see but she has a black and white tail thats only a few inches long at the tip of her tail bone and her mane is the same and not really any kind of fore lock and big striped feet
> 
> http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t375/butternutsquash94/e5c9aedb.jpg


Haha...sounds like an Appy all right...


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## sinodacevera

*Foundation Appaloosa vs "regular" Appaloosa*

Hello all. I'm new here and sorry I can't upload photos yet as I don't have any less than 64 kb. Anyhow...I have always been fascintated with Appaloosas after owning a gelding that was headed for the kill pen (many years ago). He was solid colored, half QH, out of a leopard mare so surely not a fine specimen but he taught me a lot (as all horses can and do). I am now putting my toe in the water after buying a leopard mare who gave birth to a few spot leopard colt in April. I'm supposed to be a focused Lusitano person but am absolutely distracted. I do find myself wishing I could put a little bit of the "spanish" back into the Appaloosa with my Lusitano but he is grey so that won't happen. But, either way, I am planning on registering the colt as "foundation" as well, since there is all appaloosa until six generations back, then I find QH (mostly TB) racing lines. Anyway, happy to join ya'll!


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## WyndellaRose

Ghostwind or anyone else out there, I found a colt by DREA Strong Medicine. He's dun with blanket and spots, dorsal stripe, and leg barring/shoulder shadowing (according to the breeders web site). He's not bad looking and he's not to expensive...

Anyone looking for a nice colt? 

I've also found a TON more nice looking colts and a few scattered fillies for good measure.


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## FlyGap

I'm interested! Where are all the good Appy's?? I called on one yesterday, he had been listed for only 3 hours before he sold!!
I'm looking for a good trail gelding but I might get a nice colt if just the right one came by....


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## Spotted

Yes foundation Appys are generations of Appaloosa breedings. For example a 5 generation Appaloosa would be %100 foundation bred. ( parents, grandparents greatgrand parents and so on. Some people call them purebred. they are rare right now and that is what many breeders are striving for. To bring the true Appaloosas back. I recently just started my own Appy breeding program and have learned alot from other breeders and doing my own research.


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## Spotted

check out elkislandappaloosas.com , tells you about LP genes, PATN, Cream genes ect. May help out a bit, there are also several links to take a look at and learn more about the Appy's


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## oobiedoo

I don't have anything really to add about foundation pedigrees. All I know is that back in the 70's and 80's most of the appys I remember had " ugly" heads (beauty is in the eye of the beholder)and were fairly big boned, stocky looking horses, lots of them did have wispy manes and tails. It seemed to me like they really started changing when people started showing them hunt seat and such, then the conformation and color really seemed to change.
I don't know if anyone here would remember or know of Old Savannah Farms in Watha, NC? Maxine Cartwright and her husband, I think he was called CD, bred and showed Apploosas in the late 60s and 70's, the only name that comes to mind right away is "My Gracious" I think he may have been NC state champion leopard appaloosa stallion way back. I do remember thinking he was a beautiful horse, very loud leopard gorgeous example of the breed, or at least what I got to see of it in NC.


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## WyndellaRose

Send me a private message and I'll send you the link to the colt.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## klyneal7

I am a first time Appaloosa owner, and I'm very interested in the difference between the 'foundation' and 'modern' Appy. I am very, very impressed with my Appy's eagerness to please, willingness to do anything at all, and most of all, his intelligence. He was an unusually well trained barrel and pole racer, did all the western games (4 corners, keyholes, etc), penning and sorting, and jumping as well. He even pulled a big cast iron tub full of frozen water back up the hill with a rope tied to his saddle horn. My friends couldn't believe he even caught on to what I wanted him to do, let alone be willing to do it. I'm now hooked on Appys. My guy is a total baby sitter as well, very very careful with little riders. Not only do we ride him bareback, we can canter him bareback with just a lead rope hanging from his halter. Even jump him that way. Just an amazingly sweet, intelligent horse. A trainer friend of mine wanted to train him to do dressage, she was so impressed with his gaits and willingness to position himself any way she directed him. So what is the difference between foundation and modern? I already see a difference in Appaloosa's compared to other breeds ...


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## Ashkat128

The Appaloosa was nearly wiped out after the Nez Perce war in the late 1800s- what remained of the breed declined and were cross bred with drafts to make good plough horses for settlers and developing the area. The Original war horse that was the Appaloosa was nearly lost. The breed registry was formed only recently in 1938 and strove to reform the breed as it was... By infusing mostly Thoroughbred, Arab and QH blood to refine it and improve quality. Today the registry is still partially open to these breeds, so Appaloosas have a lot of outside influence and can vary a great deal. 

Foundation Appaloosas are registered Appaloosas that have 75% Appaloosa Blood or higher going back the last 8 generations. That means when you go back 8 generations you should mostly not see any Thoroughbred, Arab or QH. These horses are the purest Appaloosas that can be publicly owned (there is a small pure herd in Alberta that fled up with the Nez Perce after the war but they are not sold outside). 

Founation Appys are quite different from our modern Appys now a days that tend to resemble colored QHs more than anything. Among other differences the Foundation can often be gaited. Appaloosas used to be known as 100 mile a day horses for their "Indian Shuffle" gate.


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## klyneal7

I am a first time Appaloosa owner. I bought a retired barrel and pole racer, who also did all the western games, penning and sorting, jumping, and now that we have him, trails.
I am still amazed at the gentle intelligence of this guy. He is willing to do ANYTHING - even pull a cast iron tub of frozen water up a hill with a rope tied to his saddle horn. My friends couldn't believe that he actually caught on to what I wanted him to do, let alone his willingness to do it. He is fearless in a calm way on the trail, and still has quite the motor on him in the ring. Unusually well trained, we canter and jump him bareback with just a lead rope hanging from his halter. He responds beautifully to leg pressure, so the single lead rope hanging from his chin works just fine. He's a total baby sitter with little ones, but can still give you a real good ride around the barrels or poles. He's extremely athletic and versatile, with a kind, gentle, willing nature. He's Houdini when it comes to getting stalls or gates open, and part mountain goat on the trail. He's never been sick or lame, and has those nice thick sturdy bones and big feet that you never have to worry about going lame. He's 26 now, and still going strong. 
I'm looking for another Appy, since I'm so impressed with this one. 
Oh yes, I almost forgot. He blew the trained endurance Arab out of the water on an endurance training ride. The Arab was 5 years younger, but Rusty pushed him the whole way, jumped every log and navigated all kinds of terrain, to come back bone dry and relaxed. The Arab was wet from the ears down and breathing hard. Don't kid yourself, these guys are indefatigueable. He loves to compete and never tires. Still goes on 6 - 8 hour trail rides with no problem. 
What is the difference between foundation and modern appy's ? I already saw the difference in Rusty's attitude and abilities, compared to other breeds. I'm curious as to how to get another horse with the same intelligence and ability.

Anyone?


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## klyneal7

Opps, I thought my last entry timed out. Ignore the dupe.


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## klyneal7

I'm just wondering what to look for when buying an Appaloosan. My Appy was very different from previous horses. Like I said, I'm hooked. Would you look for the white sclera, striped hooves, mottled skin, etc? 
I was looking for a horse for my 10 year old daughter 7 years ago. He was the first horse I looked at, and when I saw how beautifully he took care of my daughter, I knew he was the one. I wasn't specifically looking for any breed at the time, just a safe horse. Best horse I ever had.


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## GhostwindAppaloosa

klyneal7 said:


> I'm just wondering what to look for when buying an Appaloosan. My Appy was very different from previous horses. Like I said, I'm hooked. Would you look for the white sclera, striped hooves, mottled skin, etc?
> I was looking for a horse for my 10 year old daughter 7 years ago. He was the first horse I looked at, and when I saw how beautifully he took care of my daughter, I knew he was the one. I wasn't specifically looking for any breed at the time, just a safe horse. Best horse I ever had.


I'd look at temperament, conformation, pedigree when looking. Not all appys have all the characteristics depending upon the color of them. they can come solid!


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## GhostwindAppaloosa

for anyone interested. One of my appys shuffling


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## verona1016

I've found this whole thread to be very interesting- I had no idea the difference between the old-style and modern appaloosas! Is there a registry out there trying to preserve the old-style? Or are both types typically registered with ApHC?


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## Saddlebag

The original appys were very hardy horses with rock solid hooves. These horses could easily outdistance the calvary horses. In order to stack the odds in the calvary's favor, men were ordered to steal the stallions and draft stallions were turned into the herds. If that wasn't enough, the appaloosa horse club tho't it ok that qh, arab and tb could be infused into the bloodlines as long as from registered stock. Luckily a group formed who searched out the true apps which does a shuffle and can go all day like that. I had an app mare that was a qh in appaloosa clothing. A friend had one with a solid coat color out and everyone referred to her as a qh.


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## Drifting

I have one of each.

Sammy ( Shockability Appaloosa) has a 90% FPD designation, though when I look through his pedigree I see a lot of QH in there and some TB. 









He's stubborn, lazy, and can be a jerk, though not as much now that he's been gelded. He learns quickly and is an easy keeper. I love his expressions, and I think once he's done with his training he's going to make me a really nice little all-around guy. 

Then I got this guy. I'm not even going to lie, I bought him for his color. Hopefully he'll outgrow some of his conformation faults. He's 1/2 Quarter horse, and reminds me of a cartoon and a Labrador retriever meshed into one. Also an easy keeper. Gets fat off air easy keeper. Lazy too. Blue eye comes from his Sire (67% foundation, which really isn't much more than half I guess.)

Stryder (Rolling River Blue Appaloosa)











Out of the two of them, Sammy's the only one with a mane and tail. Stryder SHOULD have a mane and tail, his parents have nice ones, his siblings have nice ones.. but when he shed out his winter coat last spring he decided -all- his hair had to go. He's now in the process of growing it back with his winter coat. I roached his mane a few months ago. Its a little mohawk now.


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## klyneal7

I'm interested in the same thing you are, so I'm waiting too. My present Appy is now 26. Still going strong, but I know the day is coming when he will retire. I'd love to get another as I've been extremely impressed with this guy.


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## klyneal7

My Appy has the big hindquarters, thick legs, and big feet. He's always been barefoot, and even after 15 years of barrels, poles and western games, penning and sorting, he's never been lame or sick. Easy keeper. He's about 14.3 hands. He's a varnish roan (white and orange) with the white scalera, mottled skin, and striped hooves typical of Appys. He turned out to be a great jumper and trail horse. Total baby sitter with little ones. We canter and jump him bareback with just a lead rope hanging from his halter. No papers, but I think I just lucked out and got a 'true' Appy. Highly intelligent, gentle, and willing, he's part mountain goat on the trail, and Houdini when it comes to getting gates and stalls open. Does this sound like a 'foundation' Appy?


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## BlueSpark

My current filly is not foundation bred, half quarter horse(western pleasure lines), sire is partially halter bred appaloosa (Docs Sonata Dream Appaloosa). she is one of the easiest horses to work with and train that I have ever had. Easy going, but with enough zip to keep it interesting, and totally born broke. The first time I put a saddle on her she just turned her head as if to say "FINALLY!! what took you so long!".

I have worked with two foundation appaloosas. Both were stubborn, and not for beginner riders. very sound, with great endurance, well built and nicely coloured.

I do wish they would close the registry, I think they have out crossed enough.


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## klyneal7

Interesting. Except for the 'not for beginner riders,' - sounds like my Appy. He does have great endurance.


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## klyneal7

I'm just trying to figure out if I just lucked out with this guy, or did I somehow stumble across an Appaloosa that has strong foundation lines. Have no papers for this guy, but he seems to exhibit all the physical and mental traits of the foundation appaloosa's that I read about. The trick is, how can I found another one like this? That's why I'm looking for the difference between 'foundation' and


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## GhostwindAppaloosa

klyneal7 said:


> I'm just trying to figure out if I just lucked out with this guy, or did I somehow stumble across an Appaloosa that has strong foundation lines. Have no papers for this guy, but he seems to exhibit all the physical and mental traits of the foundation appaloosa's that I read about. The trick is, how can I found another one like this? That's why I'm looking for the difference between 'foundation' and



A horse can be foundation bred and have terrible conformation and temperament... same can be said for modern appaloosas. Look for a breeder who is producing quality animals with sound minds.


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## david in md

*What do I have?*

Here's my appaloosa mare, Luna
Wwb Luna Moon Appaloosa

Don't have a picture on this computer but she's snow capped chestnut with a sparse mane and tail. Not stockly like a quarterhorse, more like a thoroughbred in conformation. Very stubborn but willing after you've proven you're worthy to be her leader. Also the alpha in a herd of 4. The others challenge each other all the time but never Luna as there is no doubt she's the boss.


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## klyneal7

Thanks, Faceman. Very informative. One thing that I think is missing, and probably the most important trait of an Appy, is their intelligent, willing personality.
My appy has foundation physical characteristics - white scalera, coloring, mottled skin, ect., and even the thick bones and big feet and scrappy mane and tail of foundation Appys, but this is not what I'm really looking for. 
My Appy is a total work horse. He will do anything at all around a ranch or farm even if he's never done it before (like pulling hay bales out of the woods with a rope tied to his saddle horn, etc.). Highly intelligent, he loves kids and is very protective of them. If he has a child on his back, he will not allow any other horses near him. He won't even trot if he feels the child is too young or unbalanced, no matter how hard they try to make him trot. Hes a total babysitter with kids. 
I love his personality, which is so rare. The intelligence, gentleness, willingness, etc. is really the reason Appy's are so special.


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## klyneal7

It's actually the personality traits that I am looking for when it comes time to retire my present Appy. True foundation Appy personality as well as versatility. They are unbeatable.


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## Regula

Ashkat128 said:


> Foundation Appaloosas are registered Appaloosas that have 75% Appaloosa Blood or higher going back the last 8 generations. That means when you go back 8 generations you should mostly not see any Thoroughbred, Arab or QH. These horses are the purest Appaloosas that can be publicly owned (there is a small pure herd in Alberta that fled up with the Nez Perce after the war but they are not sold outside).


Interesting. Couldn't find anything on it, is there any more info on that "pure" herd in AB? Who maintains it (on one of the reserves, I assume)? Is it possible to visit / see those horses, or are they completely closed off from the outside?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## IndianaJones

Just popping in for fun and input.

I have a Toby 1/ 2 boy now...and have had 4 appaloosas in my life. Two no color qh/tb types and two foundation. Something about the foundation that will stick with you forever... like they have a secret modern horses don't 

My Toby boy as a baby and adult, and my Mare Windwalker from my youth.


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## anndankev

Beautiful


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## Shawin

When breeding an Appaloosa, look at the conformation you like, and think about what you want to breed for, like Pleasure, Reining, Trail Riding, Good Family Horses, Dressage etc and go for it. Breeding type to type to get what you want is best.
Whilst colour and patterns are attractive, they are no good without a good strong conformation and a good temperament on your horse.
When a breed is being bought back from extinction it's quite normal to outcross. 
The Thoroughbred Registry wasn't closed for 200 years.
In the past it was believed if you outcross you lose the colour, but that just isn't true. LP and PATN genes are very dominant genes and you can select for them if you wish.
The only book I can recommend is "The American Appaloosa Anthology" by Palmer Wagner. This book gave a pretty good overview of bloodlines and photo's of Foundation Horses.
Good Luck.


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