# Head up too high....how to correct?



## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

Okay well I've been riding Sonny alot bareback and I'm enjoying it more and more so I've been riding him bareback more to help me with my balance and just because Sonny responds better like that. 

But anyways, for the walk he keeps his head and neck straight with his back (or looks like it...hard to tell when I'm on top of him)...and for the canter his neck is there also....
But for the trot, his head and neck is up more and I can't think of any ideas how to teach him to put it down. 

Nothing is spooking him, nothing is hurting him, I'm not using the carrot stick nor am I in any way kicking him or wahtnot to make him feel uncomfortable.

Any ideas? Again all I am using on him at the moment is
Eggbutt snaffle with bridle
Split reins (got them in case I showed)
bareback pad
western girth

and that's all. Help! hehe


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## Krista S (Jul 5, 2007)

Since you mention using a carrot stick, I assume you use Parelli/natural horsemanship methods. I used to use Parelli, but switched to CA, and can't remember what Parelli does as far as lateral to vertical flexion. Anyway, does your horse flex well laterally? If so, do lots of bending and giving at the trot. Do small circles, figure eights, serpentines, etc. The more he flexes laterally the more his poll will drop. If he has progressed to vertical flexion, ask for that at the trot, alternating with the lateral stuff. If you're okay with using other "tools", I found a chambon/de gogue worked way better than any other type of tie down, etc. Since it works off the poll, not the nose, my horse understood it much better. I started doing all the bending/flexing exercises with it on and was able to stop using it within two weeks. Just my humble thoughts... :wink:


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## Appyt (Oct 14, 2007)

Are you sure you aren't bouncing at the trot, that could make him hollow his back. I know one of my horses has a bit of a rough trot and I sometimes find it hard to get my seat.


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

Appyt
that's what I thought at first, but I've got him now where he will do his slow western trot...so hardly any bounce at all, yet he still keeps his head up high. Occasionally he'll put it down but only for maybe 2 strides then it's back up again for the rest of the time. 
He's always kept his head up higher at a trot than at a walk or canter even for lunging

Krista, 
yes I am into natural horsemanship. He bends fine and will collect (get his head on the veritcal and round his back....well the last part is only part of the time hehe)...when I ask him to turn first his head goes and then the body follows. He bends nice and I always do figure eights and serpentines, but it doesn't seem to help. 
No I'm not going to use a tie-down on him...I personally think anything forcing the head to go in position is cruel and won't really do any help. I've used stuff like that before (not on Sonny) and it acted more as a crutch...the minute you took it off they were back to the normal position
So I don't want to use any mechanical means...I want him to realize that that is what I want him to do and him do it without me making him


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Sonny, you had pix posted a while back where, although he wasnt in a QH frame, he was in a hunt frame (using a western saddle) where he was on the bit and collected but your latest pix (the bareback ones) had him completely off the bit and on the forehand. I know you arent big on training devices and you don't really like port bits (I think I read that)... I'm thinking some of your issue is that you are doing bareback and still learning to get your own balance so you arent giving the leg pressure you usually give to push him forward into himself. 

I have seen you post about collection so I know you understand it... I'm going to go home and ride blue bareback tonight if it doesnt rain and I'm going to get put him on the bit and get him to drop his head so that maybe tomorrow I can give you good advice... I can picture what you need to do... I'm just not sure how to say it....

Have you done any pressure release training? Where you hold pressure on the reign and release the instant he drops his head?


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

here is a picture at a trot so you know what I mean

Trot: 










Walk: 









Canter:









Sorry it's small, but you can see the general idea of where his head is. It is a bit higher in the canter, but not as high as in the trot


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

He's a little bit on his forehand, you'll notice his nose is just a teensy bit pointed out at the walk and the canter. You know... I think... You arent going to like this! But... I think you might just be a tad unbalanced at the trot w/out your saddle. your legs push alot more forward at the trot.... I think.... you are on the right track and just need practice practice practice.....


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

farmpony,
My balance is alright, occasionally it's thrown, but it's 100% better than what it was. The only time my balance is thrown is when he takes a REALLY sharp corner when I'm asking him to turn (at a trot or canter) or at a realllllly fast trot. But since he's only been doing his WP trot I haven't lost my balance. 

I'm not anti-port bit, but I'd like to stick with my snaffle. He responds good to it and I don't want him to become hard mouthed. 

I've heard millions of definitions of "on the bit" anyone care to say the real one? An easy to understand one lol (been slow lately...due to I had to give 7 girls pony rides this morning) 

Not all western horses are "on the bit"








Now, to me that is not on the bit (but like I said I've heard so many definitions of "on the bit" that I don't know which is true)....the horse is long and low...which is what I am trying to achieve with Sonny....the only difference that I see between that horse and Sonny is that that horse has a REALLLLLY nice topline...where as Sonny lost his a while back and I'm working on regaining it

I have pressure trained him, but I'm not training him have his neck errect, head on vertical and whatnot like an English horse. I'm hoping to turn him into a nice western pleasure horse


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

heavens I know I need a lot more practice and that my legs aren't even close to perfect at all. That has ALWAYS been the worst part for me. 
It's a working progress...no one is perfect at anything.

BTW, congrats on being a mod, farmpony!


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

that horse isn't long and low, he's all strung out. TRUE long and low makes a horse pick up speed the lower his head is.

WP, however, is a bit different... I'm not a huge fan of that picture at all, really.

Anywho. If you have to keep your horse at a slow jog to sit the trot, then you are not balanced. I'm sure you feel alright, but until you can sit a trot (smoothly), don't expect too much from sonny. It's a hard skill to master; make sure you aren't using your hands to keep your balance at the trot, too.

I don't want to sound mean, but there's really no other reason why he would stick his head up other then you cannot sit the gait (it may LOOK fine, but it doesn't feel fine to him). If it was training, then it would get progressively worse with speed (like the canter)--just practice makes perfect.


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

I'm taking when you say "that" horse you mean the picture....
If so, then how is he all strung out?

I don't keep him at it, he just does it. Whenever I asked for a trot he would just go into his slow trot...but if I want a faster one I'd ask and he'd go into it. 
I'm not using my hands at all for balance...if I do start to loose my balance, I grab on to the handle that's on the bareback pad with my hand that is holding the excess splitreins


I know I'm not bouncing at the trot when he goes into his slow trot (again without me asking) so what wouldn't be feeling right to him? Any ideas?


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## jeddah31 (Jun 11, 2008)

long and low the horses nose should be almost to the ground


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

jeddah31 said:


> long and low the horses nose should be almost to the ground


no....you don't want a horses head that low..that's totally unnatural and not really good for them.


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## jeddah31 (Jun 11, 2008)

SonnyWimps said:


> jeddah31 said:
> 
> 
> > long and low the horses nose should be almost to the ground
> ...


the point of long and low is to stretch over their back and top line and step furthur underneath themselves. horses stand all day in a paddock with there head down eating, whats un natural about that. Get on my horse, then get on sonny and tell me which one is stiffer. honest to god


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

yes they are lowering their head down to eat NOT to walk/trot/canter while carrying a person. How many horses do you see cantering along in a pasture with their nose all the way down to the floor?

And besides even if that is what you wanted you can't expect a horse to autimatically put their head down...just like for collection, you can't expect them to get it perfect or be able to keep it for very long. Yes I know you want the head down a little lower, but not to the ground

Anyways, I watched a Fluidity DVD that I had from Parelli so I'll try their suggestions....sadly it didn't really say any hints for bareback, but I'll try what they did and see if that helped at all.
I'm looking to see if they have a bareback DVD or something of the sorts that might help.

Anyways I'll get pictures and such and maybe a video (depending on if there is anyone there to be a camera person). Also if the instructor is around I'll mention to her that I can't sit the trot bareback and get feedback from her and see what she thinks.


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## Mercury (Nov 25, 2006)

Agreed Sonny that a horses nose shouldn't be on the ground! However, the horses pictured I don't think isn't doing a long and low. Generally when I picture it, I see a horse that is stretching outward (for lack of a better work). This type of exersize would be great for your horse to get the head level that you want. Here is a fairly good article about it. They do a better job than I could explain!
http://www.artofriding.com/articles/longandlow.html


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

try working on bringing your legs back, don't let your body tip forward though. then do small circles and serpentines, do your pressure excersizes, make sure you release when he drops. I actually had to go back to 2 hands when I started that with blue because i didn't have myself completely in the right position, so when i worked on head and collection i did two hands (i still do with him - he's a little difficult in that departmetn, he doesnt have the right conformation so it's alot harder work for him...) - sonny is ok on the confirmation depratment so that isnt extra hard for him....


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

that kinda helps but I'm confused on the "spounging" on what they mean and how to do it.


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## Mercury (Nov 25, 2006)

It's not tugging on the horses mouth, it's kind of like just squeezing the reins. There is similar pressure to sqeezing a sponge... just a light feel. IDK it's hard for me to explain. Similar to doing half-halts if you're familiar with that.


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

kind alike half-halts but not a full one...just a really tiny half-halt
^^Kinda like that? lol

Farmpony, I know I do have the problem of slipping forward so that is why I got the bareback pad, thinking that would cause me to slip forward at least a tiny bit less. And it does help but I think once I find my balance point for the trot I'll be fine. I can stay on and balance fine it's just the bumping. I'll do circles and figure eights when I trot because when I'm turning at the trot and whatnot I stop bouncing even if he didn't slow down (weird, right?) I think it's because I'm telling him to turn with my legs so I'm more back in my balance spot, but when I go straight I stop sitting there.


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## Delregans Way (Sep 11, 2007)

Simple answer... 

Sonny is unbalanced and has no devolped back muscels to round, the easier way is for him to put his head up - causing him to hollow out, resulting in his head up in the air.
Lunging work should improve, and help him build those muscels up.


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

Delregans Way said:


> Simple answer...
> 
> Sonny is unbalanced and has no devolped back muscels to round, the easier way is for him to put his head up - causing him to hollow out, resulting in his head up in the air.
> Lunging work should improve, and help him build those muscels up.


just wanted to point out that this is a fairly old post and I have solved the problem...it was me being off balance and not riding with him.
Also, I'm anti-lunging so I will not lunge my horse :wink:


Mainly what I found out was that I was restricting his movements causing him discomfort, though I was moving "with" him, I was not moving enough.
Here's some updated videos:
YouTube - Bareback and bridleless 1 (trot)
YouTube - Bareback and bridleless 2 (canter)

These both were taken a while ago, and he's improved alot. I'm was not looking for him to collect or whatnot, just drop his head a bit...and he did


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## dustytrailzz (May 25, 2008)

Can I ask why you are anti-lunge?


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

dustytrailzz said:


> Can I ask why you are anti-lunge?


 
Cus she's a PARELLI FREAK!!!! :razz: (I'm just teasing...)


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## jeddah31 (Jun 11, 2008)

Hey there Sonny how is everything going?

I know you basically only ride bareback now, and you SAY the Sonny seems to enjoy it. But I've just found some information that proves my theory and was hoping I could help you save your horses back! Did you know that the seat bones of yourself dig into the hroses back when you ride bareback?

"Since a horse has much less motivation, and a much shorter attention span than his rider, discomfort is totally counter-productive to correct work. One way of creating discomfort is by pointing two fairly narrow seatbones into the latissimus dorsi muscle of the horse, and weighing it down with the weight of a human. A saddle will more or less efficiently spread the rider's weight across a much larger area of the back of the horse. And which would you prefer, had you to choose between a rock and a hard place; to be stepped on the foot with a sneaker or a high heel?" -Theresa Sandin


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

we are doing good....no problems other than Sonny is high on energy because I haven't been able to ride him as much.

jeddah, riding bareback does not hurt the horse's back...I think I have enough fat in my butt to give it a nice cushion  :lol: The only thing that will cause soreness is if you are bouncing when trotting, etc....but not if you are riding quitely on their back


haha FP :evil: lol

dusty, I just think that it works the horse up more and get's them emotionally crazy. That's just my view on it...and it's been that way for a long time even before I liked Parelli....but it's just my opinion. Also Sonny gets bored easy...so to me it would be very boring and he'd hate it...


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## Zab (Oct 4, 2008)

Lunging also wears a lot on the horses legs.  At least normal lunging, and loose lunging in the round pen. 

I saw you've already figured it ot, buut after reading the thread I want to give my advice anyway xD

Ride more in walk, work on the collection, shoulder in/out etc and build his muscles more before youtry to collect in trot. He is/was not strong enough.
If he seeks the bit, a curb can help (working with you givingthe rein after taking a little, making him following it) but tat won't work if he's not strong enough, then it'd only result in a curled up horse.
And you were probably a bit unbalanced


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

well sonny... I think the problem is... well... he just isnt' happy with you... nope... time to get rid of him... I'll take him off your hands... You can start with a new project... yeah, that will solve it all...

GIVE ME THE HORSE!


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## hotreddun (Jun 27, 2008)

I'll be honest I didn't read all the posts...but when I hear about the wester horses with head set issues I think one thing. Stop focusing on the head and think about the butt. If the horse is driving from his rear he will naturally arch his back and lower his head.


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

I wasn't looking for him to collect or be on the bit...I was mainly looking for him to lower his neck so it's not up high....so his poll and withers were on the same level.

FP, you know, you could easily solve the problem and move to NY and board where I board MY horse....then you would defiantely have my permission to ride him whenever


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## Zab (Oct 4, 2008)

If he collects (I don't man any fancy pancy collection, just lowering the head, get of the withers and listening to the aids) the head will drop down too. And that's probably what happened when he did lower his head; he relaxed and then came into a nice, natural and low collection, which is what they need not to wear out their backs and legs.

Why did you care about the head if you didn't care about it looking fancy, and didn't care about how he worked through the body?


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

here is a picture of waht I mean that he was originally doing:
(first attached image) ( the best example cause I do realize that I was kinda holding his head up....but when something is bothering him...like pain or he's nervous that is how he'll keep his head)
And here is what I have now:
(second attached image) (not the bext example but see how the poll and the withers are kinda on the same line? like that)


I'm so bad at saying things...I guess really waht I meant was getting the neck down. I need to pay more attention to stuf like that...cause to me...head, neck, it's all about the same lol


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

SonnyWimps said:


> dusty, I just think that it works the horse up more and get's them emotionally crazy. That's just my view on it...and it's been that way for a long time even before I liked Parelli....but it's just my opinion. Also Sonny gets bored easy...so to me it would be very boring and he'd hate it...


 
Properly done lunging is neither boring or should result in a horse being emotionally crazy.

Although I started out simple as my horse does the usual W/T/C but also...passage,piaffe, flying changes, halt to canter..canter to halt and with a second line does half pass, shoulder in and leg yields....all on a lunge.

Nope not bored at all....and he is ready to ride after or I can leave that lunge work as a complete workout.


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

Spyder, even if doing transitions on the lunge line or even while riding...if I am not asking for different patterns, and all this weird stuff (like going on platforms and on tires) he gets bored...and you can tell in his reaction to my cues that something is up. He starts to fight more and doesn't want to co-operate.
Not sure if you know anything on parelli, but it catagorizes the horses into groups depending on their attitudes. Well Sonny is what you'd call a Left Brained Extrovert....passing all the unimportant stuff, LBE gets extremely bored and fast. Now whether you think the stuff is true, that's up to you....but Sonny does get bored with stuff that the last horse that I rode would enjoy doing


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## Zab (Oct 4, 2008)

I understood how you meant, but why did you care about the headset if you didn't care about his frame or colllection? Why not letting him walk as he wants?


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## moomoo (Feb 21, 2007)

I know its and old post but its true about the bareback thing. Walk and canter are natural smooth gaits, but trotting is quite bad for their back if you trot bare back alot.


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

it's only bad if you are bouncing on their back....if you always have contact and are moving with them it isn't bad for their backs.


Zab, well originally I thought it was some type of training issue or something....but actually the head up was a pain issue and I've gotten it under control. He lowers his head almost to the ground randomly when trotting and the only time he'll raise it is if he's nervous or there is pain


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## moomoo (Feb 21, 2007)

"A girl I knew rode her horse everyday bareback for a couple of months ( only about 30 minutes to 1 hr each day) but after a couple months of this he had pressure sores on his back. She was a very good rider and the horse was in good condition but over time was broke down to the point that she couldn't even ride him with a saddle, he spent several months on pasture rest to heal his back."

Even if you can sit the trot the motion of it is less 'flowy' and your seatcones still dig in every stride.


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

Yes by sitting to it, it can hurt the back...but if you are literally flowing with the trot, as if you are "trotting" yourself you're seat will be moving with him...there will be no bounce at all and no pain for the horse.

My friend from the stables rides her horse since she got her bareback. Only twice have I seen her ride in a saddle...that was for a trail (though normally she goes bareback for it) and the other was for the show (where she HAD to use a saddle). Her horses back is fine and she's owned her for over 2 years.

If you are bouncing even the slightest bit all the time while trotting...yes it definately will ruin the back, but I fail to see how, if you are moving with the horse at the pace they are going, how it would hurt their back.....but maybe I"m not looking at it the right way.
Also I don't always ride bareback. If I'm just doing light work and not really practicing on anything, then I'll go bareback....but if I'm practicing something where I'll need perfect Balance (or if Sonny is purposely trying to throw off my balance) then I use my saddle.


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## Zab (Oct 4, 2008)

I can't quote since it's written in swedish, but I know at least 3 people who had to start riding bareback because of an illfitting saddle, and their horses suddenly gained much more muscles and worked better with them.
I woas going to show pictures, but can't find them in the bazillion of threads.. -_- but I can PM the rider and ask for before-after photos?

So either the rider in your story doesn't ride very good in that aspect, or the horse got problems of another reason.



moomoo said:


> "A girl I knew rode her horse everyday bareback for a couple of months ( only about 30 minutes to 1 hr each day) but after a couple months of this he had pressure sores on his back. She was a very good rider and the horse was in good condition but over time was broke down to the point that she couldn't even ride him with a saddle, he spent several months on pasture rest to heal his back."
> 
> Even if you can sit the trot the motion of it is less 'flowy' and your seatcones still dig in every stride.


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

here's a before and after photo.....the before was I only rode in a saddle, never bareback.
And the after photo is with me mainly riding bareback. The after picture was also taken about 1-2 months ago....so it's not an extremely current one

(see attached)


I think if you have a quiet seat, the back will be fine...but if you are moving agsint the horse or not moving at all (or bouncing) that you will hurt the horse.


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## jeddah31 (Jun 11, 2008)

Zab said:


> I can't quote since it's written in swedish, but I know at least 3 people who had to start riding bareback because of an illfitting saddle, and their horses suddenly gained much more muscles and worked better with them.
> I woas going to show pictures, but can't find them in the bazillion of threads.. -_- but I can PM the rider and ask for before-after photos?
> 
> So either the rider in your story doesn't ride very good in that aspect, or the horse got problems of another reason.


that hasnothing to do with riding bareback though, that just means the horse couldmove freer without a bad saddle.

sonny have you ever had someone siton your lap? eventually even whenno moving or if they accidentlytilt in a slight way their seatbones dig into your thighs. thats what its like for a horse when you ridethem bareback


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## moomoo (Feb 21, 2007)

> sonny have you ever had someone siton your lap? eventually even whenno moving or if they accidentlytilt in a slight way their seatbones dig into your thighs. thats what its like for a horse when you ridethem bareback


Thats what I was trying to say but couldn't think of an example! :lol:


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## Zab (Oct 4, 2008)

jeddah31 said:


> that hasnothing to do with riding bareback though, that just means the horse couldmove freer without a bad saddle.
> 
> sonny have you ever had someone siton your lap? eventually even whenno moving or if they accidentlytilt in a slight way their seatbones dig into your thighs. thats what its like for a horse when you ridethem bareback


Do you think the horses would both build and keep good muscles for years without any back troubles if the bareback riding hurt them?

You don't sit the same way on a horse as on a chair or in someones lap; you're more ''standing'' on the horseback (or should be) and thus the muscles of your ighs and the rest of your butt even out the preassure.
A famous saddlemaker once said ''the best saddle is a mans bum"...


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

first off, the saddle fits fine. It isn't too small and doesn't put pressure anywhere. It's not from a bad or ill fitting saddle. 


Good point Zab! And it's honestly correct. If bareback riding was bad and painful Sonny would NOT have gained muscles...he's gain it in other places where he is not supposed to so he can avoid the pain that way


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

...I'm kind of curious... How many people can say the have NOT ridden bareback? 

I do it. I don't do it EVERY time I ride but i ride bareback and I LOVE IT...


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## moomoo (Feb 21, 2007)

I have ridden bareback too  well, mostly rugback down the road to the field


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## bgood400 (Nov 10, 2008)

Have you tried a training fork? This may help by getting him to give to your hands more. I also noticed that you do seem to have your legs a little too far forward. By pulling them back underneath of you this may also help with the horses balance as well as yours.

-Brittany


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

I don't want to use any mechanical devices. My old instructor uses them all the time and I've seen too many horses (ALL of her horses infact) that have to have it on for them to listen. If it's not on then they don't think we are on their back and take off. Also my horse can get extremely spooked and frightened at times...you totally freaked when the BO was showing me another way to get him to back up (and he freaked for me also) so I have to be realllllly careful on what I do because he is starting to actually WANT to be with me now (instead of other horses) so I don't want to do anything to scare him and ruin what we have so far.

I bounce more with my leg back farther and I have no balance there. I get cramps extremely easy in my lower legs and ankles so it's hard for me to keep them bent too long. I don't think a chair position is bad...it's not the lovely-est to look at, but it doesn't hurt the horse and I've noticed that most people when they ride bareback have it. I think it's just natural


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## Zab (Oct 4, 2008)

(training fork? What's that? O__o The name give me an image of a giant fork stuk down in the ground and a horse tied to it in training.. like pillars or something..>_>)


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## bgood400 (Nov 10, 2008)

One like this isnt very severe. If you make it the right length it will just be there to aid you when you need it. You also wouldn't use it on a day to day basis so your horse wouldnt become dependent on it.


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

I just perfer to teach my horse stuff without using mechanical devices...in the long run I've seen better results. Also on a side point, I have no money to spend on stuff that I won't be using for a long time. I already need a rain sheet for my horse and a new bit at some point


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## moomoo (Feb 21, 2007)

is that just a martingale with no neck strap? :?


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

moo, I do believe that's what it is. It will hook on the girth then to the reins


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## Jukochoko (Nov 12, 2008)

your horse is apparently not responding to you. you need to work on your legs and have your horse 'under you' walking trotting and galloping. now to do that you need to feel the pressure you put in the reins and the pressure in your legs, he needs to engage a good trot with his back legs, you need to 'place him' by playing with your hands, dont pull though!gently open and close your hands still with a good pressure on your legs. it is better to do it naturally than with external help, you first need, before using any artificial help, to do this work by yourself. 
hope that will help!


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