# Horse changes color



## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Shedding out time! Piles of hair everywhere!

Something I have noted over the years is that grey horses seem to grow thicker winter coats than the darker horses. What has puzzled me though has less to do with the thickness of the hair but, more with the changes in color. 

I need to pick the brains of some people into the genes and alleles and such…

As usual, my horse that doesn’t fit the mold is Oliver. Caspian gets lighter as you would expect as the season goes on, most likely due to sun strength and can almost go dun. This makes sense. 

On the other hand, Oliver gets darker in the summer months and seems to change color at least three times per year; coming into spring, coming into summer and then again, going into winter around December or January, during which time he is a cross between the brown and the black. He can look like a jet black horse or a light bay depending upon the time of year. We don’t get very cold here so the horses are out 24/7/365 (maybe a day or two inside if we get a nasty ice storm) and our sun is strong here all year 'round. (I have gotten a sun tan in January). 

Their diet is the same year round; same feed, same hay, same supplements. They even have fresh grass year round, though of different species. We don't blanket.

His color change isn’t due to sun exposure as he is blackest during the hottest time of the year and lightest during the winter. His “winter” and spring coat actually comes in varying shades of red-brown. He seems to have three color/coat changes per year.

MAY









FEBRUARY









AUGUST










JUNE










I know that he is not true black as he does have a gene in there that can throw a Palomino as his daughter was a very nice color…

Does anyone have any ideas what is up with this dramatic change in color?

Keep it as simple as you can because I am a dunce when it comes to horse genetics!

PS. You can't see it in the pics posted, but his legs, head and most of his neck stays black regardless of the body color.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Could he be smoky black?

That's black with one cream gene. Which would also explain the palomino daughter.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

I looked into the smoky black but, what I found all said that they will fade out in the summer months while a true black will not. His hair just comes in a different color in the late winter months rather than coming in black and then "fading".

I'm sure he is a smoky black or something not true black, but new hair coming in brown one time a year and then black another time of year is what has me stumped. You can actually see the new hairs growing in a different color and contrasting against the existing coat color, almost like a roan but, brown or black instead of white.


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## EmberScarlet (Oct 28, 2016)

I'm clueless about genetics, but I just wanted to say their a little shapeshifter at our barn too. Ellie, a lesson QH I ride, changes from deep red roan to almost white with red and grey spots.
I'll take photos today and show you want I mean.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

I found this: 
Hair color is determined by melanin;

“Coat pigmentation is determined by the presence, absence or relative proportions of the melanin pigments eumelanin and phaeomelanin….. Eumelanin is either brown or black in color, but is thought to always be black in horses. Phaeomelanin is either a reddish or yellowish brown.”

melanin biosynthesis and the molecular basis of coat color genetics in horses 

“The switch between eumelanin and phaeomelanin production is regulated by the interaction of the MC1R with either alpha-melanocyte stimulating hormone (alpha-MSH) or the agouti signalling protein (encoded by the agouti locus).”

If I am understanding this correctly, according to the above website, the type of melanin produced which determines whether a horse displays brown or black is determined by its genetic code, OR production of MSH, which should not change, right? So how is it that Oliver appears to create different coat colors at different times of year if this is genetically controlled? Are his MSH levels seasonal?

"Melanocyte-stimulating hormone describes a group of hormones produced by the pituitary gland, hypothalamus and skin cells. It is important for protecting the skin from UV rays, development of pigmentation and control of appetite.
melanocyte-stimulating hormone (MSH) a substance from the anterior pituitary gland of certain other animals but not humans; it influences the formation or deposition of melanin in the body and pigmentation of the skin."

Could it be that because the UV rays are less strong in the summer time that his body is producing less MSH and thus affecting his color? If so, why is that not more common? Sorry. Thinking out loud.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

I have no idea about genetics. However, I will say that both my horses look different from summer to winter. My flea-bitten grey is lighter in the winter, and my bay mare is darker in the winter. Here's my theory: my horses grow very long winter coats. The long, guard hairs on my grey are white and pretty much cover up his brown spots (he was born chestnut). As for my mare, her guard hairs are darker on most of her body, except in a couple of spots like between her legs, where they are quite a bit lighter. Once she sheds those, she goes back to her regular reddish colour, but in the winter, she looks darker, except in those light spots. 

While your horses don't grow as much of a winter coat in your warm climate, they still shed since you mentioned it. Is it possible the winter hair (manifested more obviously in my cold-climate horses as long, guard hairs) is a different colour than the undercoat? That would seem like the simplest explanation to me. I'll see if I can find pictures of mine to illustrate.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Harley and Kodak, summer and winter. I know it's hard to tell because the lighting isn't exactly the same. Also, they're dirtier in the winter! But you can see how Harley's black skin shows through his face a lot more in the summer, resulting in a darker look, whereas Kodak gets quite red in the summer, but appears brown in winter. The colour of the longer winter hairs makes the difference. This is most noticeable in Harley. When he sheds, there are no brown hairs coming off. I don't know why... they appear to be limited to the undercoat. The longer, white, winter hairs are all we find on the floor during shedding season.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Maybe it is us being in the south but my dark horses don't really grow a winter coat. They get a few of the longer dull hairs on their shoulders, under their chins and along the dorsal, but, stay slicked out everywhere else. I don't even need to brush them out in the spring, they take the hair off themselves by rolling. My white horses look like wooly mammoths but, the darker horses stay fairly slick. 

What is getting me is that genetically, the red/brown that he shows in the winter is supposed to be genetically different than black...at least to my understanding. If that is wrong, I'd really like someone to clue me in.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

You could test and find out if he has a cream gene. It wouldn't explain exactly what is going on but you'd have a piece of the puzzle.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Don't know on the colour change, but horse looks chestnut to me, not black...


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

So genetically, explain a chestnut...that is a red gene. Would the face and legs stay jet black on a chestnut with the agouti controls or something else? He did throw a palomino that suggests he does have a crème gene or could that have come from the dam?

Found this:
"The red factor test is a DNA test now available for black horses whose to genotype at the extension locus is ambiguous. This is useful information for people wanting to breed black horses. It says if a black horse can pass on the allele of the extension gene responsible for chestnut. Horses heterozygous at this gene could have chestnut foals or foals of a chestnut related colour, such as palomino, if they're bred to another horse with the chestnut allele."

Is this correct?


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Creme could have come from the dam. You haven't said what colour she is. 

Agouti has no effect on chestnuts. 

I say chestnut because of the warm tone his whole body has across all of the seasons. There isn't a typical pattern of fading that a black or bay would have. Even in the really dark photos, he has a look of uniform warm darkness to him. He'd be a dark liver chestnut then. 

I could be off base, but I immediately thought chestnut when I saw the photos.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

He and his daughter were rescues so we don't know the dam. Liver chestnut might explain a lot. I was told that because his face is black with no brown hairs, he is a smoky black and went with it.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Here is his daughter at three.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Avna said:


> You could test and find out if he has a cream gene. It wouldn't explain exactly what is going on but you'd have a piece of the puzzle.


I was just wondering how on earth there could be such a radical change contrary to what seasons would say. If he is a chestnut, that makes more sense than going from black to light bay (red) since they are genetically supposed to be two different genes.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Looking at chestnuts, he still seems to be much darker black in real life than most of those pics. More like a mahogany










Is "mahogany" just one of those made up colors and really just a genetically deeper color of chestnut?

I have never been very concerned with the color of a horse more interested in the soundness of their minds so this is a new exploration. Thank-you for putting up with me.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Chestnuts can get very dark

http://www.morgancolors.com/merwinsallabreeze.jpg

That horse is tested chestnut.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Wow! Yeah, I'd say based on sight that horse is black. I have always dealt primarily with QH's and "liver chestnut" isn't exactly common (at least not that dark). What breeds is it most found in?

Next question…so if he is a chestnut and chestnuts fade (our sorral gets golden blonde highlights), how is he getting darker during the time of year where the sun is brutal?


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

I've seen it most commonly in morgans, but since we didn't have a genetic test for it we can't say for sure. It shows up in most breeds at some point.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Fading black, possibly fading smoky black (you would have to test for cream, cream + black can cause more drastic fading). Your pictures are out of order for the seasons/months. 

A liver chestnut would have a light color around the coronet band. 

I have a tested black mare in my backyard, she only looks black in August/September and maybe a bit of October. She fades all year round, the only way to keep a fading black from fading is to keep them indoors 24/7 or whenever there is any sunshine. If they sweat and that sweat isn't immediately hosed off with water, they will fade worse. So if a horse is blanketed and they sweat at all under the blanket, their coat color is bleached from the ill effects of acidic sweat.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

SunnyDraco said:


> Fading black, possibly fading smoky black (you would have to test for cream, cream + black can cause more drastic fading). Your pictures are out of order for the seasons/months.
> 
> A liver chestnut would have a light color around the coronet band.
> 
> I have a tested black mare in my backyard, she only looks black in August/September and maybe a bit of October. She fades all year round, the only way to keep a fading black from fading is to keep them indoors 24/7 or whenever there is any sunshine. If they sweat and that sweat isn't immediately hosed off with water, they will fade worse. So if a horse is blanketed and they sweat at all under the blanket, their coat color is bleached from the ill effects of acidic sweat.


That's what has me puzzled...we don't blanket ever and during the worst sun he is at his darkest and doesn't "fade" until January. We are already into the 80's almost 90's. By August we will be in the triple digits and then some on a regular basis. It has me stumped. I download my pics into a portfolio by month/year so I am sure what month is which.

The only thing I can think of is that in the late summer the only grasses available for grazing are native as they are the only one's that can stand the heat, lack of rain and stay growing.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> That's what has me puzzled...we don't blanket ever and during the worst sun he is at his darkest and doesn't "fade" until January. We are already into the 80's almost 90's. By August we will be in the triple digits and then some on a regular basis. It has me stumped. I download my pics into a portfolio by month/year so I am sure what month is which.
> 
> The only thing I can think of is that in the late summer the only grasses available for grazing are native as they are the only one's that can stand the heat, lack of rain and stay growing.


Are you aware that the sun is actually closer during the winter? The angle the Northern Hemisphere is during the winter makes so we are cooler even though we are closer. If you went skiing in the mountains during the winter you would actually need to wear sunscreen on your exposed skin to prevent sunburn. 

The fading black in my backyard is at her worst at the end of winter and beginning of spring. Two of my sisters were insisting that she wasn't actually a black but either a dark bay or really dark chestnut, so they color tested her for both the black extension and agouti (agouti controls black pigment when present). Test results came back E/e a/a. Heterozygous black, no agouti. She is genetically black. 
Picture of her taken April 2014 in full sun (she is a little darker this spring but still quite faded)








Sometimes during the early summer she gets quite the red look to her faded body. 

If you really want to know without question what your horse's color is. Color test for extension (red/black), agouti and cream.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

SunnyDraco said:


> Are you aware that the sun is actually closer during the winter? The angle the Northern Hemisphere is during the winter makes so we are cooler even though we are closer. If you went skiing in the mountains during the winter you would actually need to wear sunscreen on your exposed skin to prevent sunburn.
> 
> The fading black in my backyard is at her worst at the end of winter and beginning of spring. Two of my sisters were insisting that she wasn't actually a black but either a dark bay or really dark chestnut, so they color tested her for both the black extension and agouti (agouti controls black pigment when present). Test results came back E/e a/a. Heterozygous black, no agouti. She is genetically black.
> Picture of her taken April 2014 in full sun (she is a little darker this spring but still quite faded)
> ...


As the northern hemisphere goes (south central Texas) we are fairly close to the equator so the length of our days/angle to the sun doesn't change much (we are at 800 feet above sea level more or less). The sun is strong all year round but much more UV rays get through in the summer which is actually why you can burn here in 10 minutes or less during the summer and not so much in the winter. I already have a dark tan going so I don't burn come summer. 

I may just need to test to find my answers but, first, I need to test him for breed I think.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> As the northern hemisphere goes (south central Texas) we are fairly close to the equator so the length of our days/angle to the sun doesn't change much (we are at 800 feet above sea level more or less). The sun is strong all year round but much more UV rays get through in the summer which is actually why you can burn here in 10 minutes or less during the summer and not so much in the winter. I already have a dark tan going so I don't burn come summer.
> 
> I may just need to test to find my answers but, first, I need to test him for breed I think.


Breed tests have little accuracy, especially if you consider that all horses share at a base level the same genetic markers. Most breeds have common influences of other older breeds. Stock horses (quarter horse, appaloosa, paint, etc) are a large mix of breeds, selected for certain traits. Take Arabians for instance, that is a very old breed and they were used as foundations or enhancing qualities for a large percentage of modern breeds. A breed test will not give reliable results, the test was created because there was a market demand (profit niche) for it as there are enough people who will pay for a test that gives maybe answers to a grade horse's breed/s


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Ran down and got some snap shots up close...might help?

You can still see his winter coat color clinging as his "spring/summer" black is coming in. The winter color is the color that it grows in during January and sheds out starting in March/April. No winter coat until then. The winter color on his face and near the coronet is black all year 'round. If that helps at all.



































From now until June he will just gradually "fade" to black so to speak and then stay that way until December where he "fades" to brown again as the new hairs grow in.

I could go for either chestnut or fading black, it is more of a curiosity than anything as he is gelded.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Being black all the time around the coronet band eliminates chestnut/red base. 

He is either fading black or smoky black.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Thank-you. Good to know info!


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Oh... Right. My phone has an overlay that effects the tone of the display and reduces blue 
light at night... Probably why the pictures looked warm... 

Those new pics, and looking back at the others in the day time, I don't see that warm mahogany colour anymore. Looks more brown or faded black now.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

^^^Bet that messes you up if you are trying to match furniture pics to paint swatches! :grin:


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

It is thought that diet can have a big impact on horses that fade, especially certain minerals. Even though your horse is eating the same hay year round, as you mentioned the pasture quality can and will vary by the season. That may well be the main underlying cause of the color change. You could always have his levels tested at various times of the year (though I suspect you don't actually care that he fades enough to start supplementing him if that is the cause).

I am with @SunnyDraco that he is black or smokey black. And regardless of what some people claim, you cannot tell the difference visually as a single creme does not affect black pigment.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

phantomhorse13 said:


> *It is thought that diet can have a big impact on horses that fade, especially certain minerals*. Even though your horse is eating the same hay year round, as you mentioned the pasture quality can and will vary by the season. That may well be the main underlying cause of the color change. You could always have his levels tested at various times of the year (though I suspect you don't actually care that he fades enough to start supplementing him if that is the cause).
> 
> I am with @SunnyDraco that he is black or smokey black. And regardless of what some people claim, you cannot tell the difference visually as a single creme does not affect black pigment.


Yes, the changing grasses were the only thing I could pinpoint as variable; that and the changing light/uv. 

In the spring, which starts here in February, the grasses are more like those found in the north, juicy, wet and lush. Come about June, the natives start going gangbusters, are almost hay like with very low water content and are more akin to those that people would graze cattle on. By October, those are the only grasses available unless you overseed and irrigate.


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