# Mare is grabbing bit, pulling rein out of my hand



## heartprints62 (Feb 27, 2010)

Been working with a stubborn mare. She is spoiled at her house and has learned to grab hold of her snaffle bit and jerk her head to pull the reins out of the riders hand so that she can stop, drop her head, and eat. 

Since she came to me, I have been riding her in a 4 knot training rope halter and bumping her to keep her from pulling her head away from me. She had stopped pulling on me almost completely so I traded out the halter for a rope nose hackamore. She'e been doing great. 

My problem lies in that her owners WANT to ride her in a snaffle bit. So I put her back in the bit and she almost immediately started testing the waters. Within an hour ride, she was back to grabbing the bit and ripping the reins out of my hands. The only way I can keep my rein is by bracing my legs and one hand on the horn and pulling with my whole body, did that ONE time... one time too many....She just managed to hurt my shoulder and keep her head pulled against me in a strength contest, obviously she won. So after I let her have her head, I bumped the bit, hard, until she brought her head back up to me and started walking again. I don't want to pull on her mouth that hard. Thats not what the owners want, they want her to be soft and responsive (obviously). Anyway, We make it about 15ft and she does it again. I have tried O-ring snaffle, jr cowhorse sweet iron snaffle, tom thumb... she grabs them all. She wont take a solid bit, like a grazing bit or a ported bit, she freaks out with a solid piece of metal in her mouth and her owners ask me not to use that. 

Is there a bit suggestions for a horse that grabs hold and pulls??

Thanks


----------



## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

How is she grabbing? Like, with her teeth? If you put a noseband on her, would it prevent her from getting the mouthpiece so far back? I guess I'm confused about what's happening...


----------



## heartprints62 (Feb 27, 2010)

Bubba I'm not really sure, it doesnt' feel like she's biting, usually I can feel the horse playing with it to get to their teeth then the initial bite and pull.... 
She sort of tips her head (poll) to the right (which lifts her left bottom jaw upward where I can see her jaw muscles completely tense up) and then she rips her head downward to the right. It all happens in a split second. Its more like a head sling.... does that make sence?


----------



## heartprints62 (Feb 27, 2010)

BTW, I was hoping you would see my thread Bubba, thanks for your help.


----------



## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

So she's not really grabbing the bit, per se, but she's just learned that she can take the momentary pain in order to take advantage of the rider? 

Can she still pull if you just hold with one hand, and bend her to the side when she tries her trick? But that's not exactly a feasible way to ride, even if it works. I mean, you could keep doing something "similar" to a one-rein stop every time she goes to yank...

You said she still does it in a jointed curb. OK, what about a chain snaffle? I'm not a big fan of that at all, but she may find it less fun to tug on.

Other than that, well, the most logical thing is what you did--using a hackamore...so odd that the owners are opposed.


----------



## heartprints62 (Feb 27, 2010)

Yes, I thought it was odd too. I put 30 days riding on her and took her back home, saddled her up and showed them how well she was doing and not pulling at all anymore. They were acctually mad! They said I "didn't fix anything" that I just made "short cut to aviod the real problem".... so I gave them another 30 days for free.............. 

The problem is that I am starting to feel it coming, so I try to tip her nose the opposite direction, but she just does the same thing on both sides. When I can finally get her up to a trot (she is SUPER lazy, vet checked out for pain, she's the picture of health) she wont pull and she does one rein stops beautifully, with only 2 fingers on the reins. That was on of the things they wanted me to teach her. 

Hence the reason I am so stumped by her behavior. She is soft in the mouth and responsive at a trot and canter. Just at a walk, she is a ......... I was thinking about trying this type of chain bit (ball chain):









This one is an Abetta. 
I also found that style of chain on a Jr Cowhorse and a Wonder Bit. 

I was hoping maybe the weight of the chain would keep her from wanting to pull on it?? Maybe...


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

That looks like a waterford mouthpiece Pelham bit, meant to be used with a snaffle rein and a curb rein, perhaps.

Instead of thinking of how to pull her out of this , is it possible to push her out of it? I mean the minute you even have an inkling that she is THINKING of doing this, you put your crop and ask for a big forward out of her. If she pulls the bit forward and you put your heels on and a crop to move her forward, will she buck?
the trick would be catching her right when she starts even thinking about this. So, never give her an opportunity to think about that, and if she strays, bump her out of that thought ASAP.


----------



## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

It's a Boucher Waterford snaffle in the picture, but it's upside down, for some odd reason....

Worth a try, but would the owners be cool with that? And she could still pull if she really wanted to, it just might hurt her mouth a little more.


----------



## heartprints62 (Feb 27, 2010)

This is the bit I posted... is it that same as the ones you have listed?
Abetta Half Cheek Ball Snaffle Bit - Stainless Steel - 5" Specialty and Other Bits Western HorseLoverZ.com

Tinyliny- I ride with 12ft split leather reins with heavy ends so that's my "spanker". I do kick her to drive her forward the second that she does this, but usually it's so fast by the time she is thinking it, she already doing it, that I don't have time to spank her too before her head is already down. I tried that already, she just steps on her face... or my rien.... after that I switches to a cotton braided rien.
I do catch her most of the time now, but if I bump her head in the opposite direction to stop it, she just slings it the other way. She does this to both sides. 
Also, the owners said she bucks, but after 30 days of riding and a week of her head being down by her knees, she hasn't offered to buck with me yet.... 


Bubba- The owners are ok with me using different bits to get her to break the habbit "as long as _ can get her back into a plain snaffle..."

The hackamore was great, I still don't get why they don't like it.... all they do is trail ride and pony grandkids around the yard...... grrrrrrr......_


----------



## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

She sounds like a peach  What about a half breed side pull so you have the snaffle with the benefit of a noseband?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## heartprints62 (Feb 27, 2010)

You know, Bubba, I just thought about this... do you remember the combo bit I posted on your bit thread? I wonder if I could break her of it with that...... but it picks up the rope hackamore before the bit..... and that might put me right back at square one once I remove the hackamore portion again. But just maybe if she learns to stop the behavior WITH the bit even if its combined with the hackamore instead of being replaced by the other.....
This is so frustrating.....


----------



## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

They're calling the bit a half cheek, but it's totally not.

It's supposed to go this way:










And go in the mouth like this: http://equineink.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/boucher.jpg

Whereas this is a half cheek snaffle:










You could have a pair of grazing reins attached to your saddle so that she can't yank her head away....but that's a potentially dangerous situation. No matter what you do _now_, you're never going to be able to 100% cure her, as she can always remember and revert to old habits...


----------



## horsecrzy94 (Jul 4, 2011)

Have you tried rubber bit guards? In my experience they are magical!


----------



## heartprints62 (Feb 27, 2010)

Ah-haa! MH that's a great idea! Thanks!

And yes, she's a doll =\ 2 years old, 15.5hh, 1300lbs of lazy, spoiled, attitude!


----------



## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Worth a try if you still have that bit, but the action is fairly slow and harsh on the nose. What about some kind of draw bit for poll pressure?


----------



## heartprints62 (Feb 27, 2010)

Bubba- yea I know, if she were my horse, I would cure her and never let her remember how to do it again.... but she's not so all I can do is the best I can do for the "now". 

As long as the customer is happy at time of delivery (as these people were NOT) then my job is done. Prior to training, I make them sign a contract that states "training is only as good as the rider..... you have to apply the new techniques to keep the horse working properly..." And I offer free lessons for each horse owner for everything I have taught their horse. That way they have no one to blame but themselves.


----------



## heartprints62 (Feb 27, 2010)

What draw bit would you recommend?


----------



## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Any ol' one. The harsher mouthpiece would probably be more effective, but I'm not sure that's the right direction to go. It's just a slight chance that shaking the action up would have an effect to make her stop and think. Probably something with a rope behind the ears, not too rough, but not too soft, either.


----------



## netty83 (Sep 21, 2010)

instead of trying different bits have you tried getting bigger with the consequence of pulling the reins. By this i mean that at the moment the consequence you are giving her isn't enough to make her think twice about pulling the reins so she thinks well i'll do it anyway because what happens when i do isn't all that bad. When she first starts to put her head down bump the rein upwards as hard as you can if this is hard enough you should only need to do it that once. It needs to feel as uncomfortable as you can make it for her when she is doing the wrong thing.

I had a problem with my mare reaching down for grass and I was bumping away asking her politely not to do it and i just had to keep asking, she wasn't getting the message, my error was my mare was getting ruder and instead of getting ruder back i stayed asking her politely. My trainer got on one day and she did what i said above yes my mare reacted to it but never tried it again because she didn't want it to happen again.


----------



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

heartprints62 said:


> And yes, she's a doll =\ 2 years old, 15.5hh, 1300lbs of lazy, spoiled, attitude!


There is no such thing as 15.5 hh. :wink: 

And if she's just 2 yo sorry to say so, but it's not a good idea to use harsher bits (it's not a good idea to ride in general). Sounds like she's lacking training (which she should at just 2 yo). I'd still stick to the loose ring 3-link snaffle personally. Do you use loose rings or eggbutt/full cheek at the moment?


----------



## LetAGrlShowU (Mar 25, 2009)

I am not a trainer by any means, but did have this problem. My horse used to pull his face to his cehst, the ground, and completely ignored me in his snaffle. In harsher bits he would do it less, but not stop. I tried lessons, a trainer got on him, had the vet out,etc nothign stopped it. ONe day i was sick of my hands hurting and yanking back on his mouth, i looped the reins in my hand and smacked him on his neck/wither area. He popped his head up. Everytime he tought about it, i popped him, and eventually he stopped. It probably took 2 days.


----------



## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

All the above or keep the rope halter on also & give that a tug when she goes down.


----------



## heartprints62 (Feb 27, 2010)

Netty- Trust me, any little random head pull or leaning on a bit is nothing compared to this. She pulls so hard that if you aren't paying attention, and don't drop the rein or bracy yourself strongly, she will pull you out of the saddle over her head. Which is why the owners ask for my help, after thier 21yo niece flew off over her head. 

KittenVal- sorry that was a typo.... I taped her at 15.3 the day I started working with her. That's what I get for asking questions at 11pm. =)
I also agree, she shouldn't be ridden much. I am never on her longer than 45 min once a day. But again, she isn't my horse, I have told the owners that they need to let her grow up another year at least before any major riding, that just because she's big, she's still a baby. Ultimately, they are going to do what they want. I'm only trying to help them with a problem. 
To answer your question she does this in every bit I have tried so far. Loose ring snaffle is what they owners want to ride her in, so I need to find a middle ground to get her uncomfortable in that action and be able to leave her in or work her back to the loose ring snaffle. 

LetaGirl- If she were my horse, I may or may not use that tactic. But she is not my horse, the owners were uncomfortable with me riding in split leather reins because of the weight of the ends used for corrective spanking. There is NO way I could tell them "I "Fixed" her by wacking her in the neck..." even if that does temporarily fix the problem. The problem with that also is that when she goes back home, they would never do that to her, so she would go right back to square one.


----------



## heartprints62 (Feb 27, 2010)

natisha said:


> All the above or keep the rope halter on also & give that a tug when she goes down.


Thats not a bad idea. Maybe I could clip my reins to the sides of the halter and to the rings on the bit and get the effect of the hackamore that she respects, but with bit pressure that she needs to learn..... it would be worth a try....


----------



## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

You might try an overcheck attached to the horn of your saddle.


----------



## heartprints62 (Feb 27, 2010)

iridehorses said:


> You might try an overcheck attached to the horn of your saddle.


I have heard of theses, but never seen one used (that I know of). Can you post a picture of how it's used?


----------



## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Or, you can rig up an anti-grazing device like this

Anti-Grazing Device < Lungeing and Training Equiptment < Horse Tack|Dover Saddlery.

Even if you train the horse not to do this with YOU, he is probably smart enough to know that he can do it with THEM. This device lets him punish himself...INSTANTLY when he pulls that.


----------



## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

Allison Finch said:


> Or, you can rig up an anti-grazing device like this
> 
> Anti-Grazing Device < Lungeing and Training Equiptment < Horse Tack|Dover Saddlery.
> 
> Even if you train the horse not to do this with YOU, he is probably smart enough to know that he can do it with THEM. This device lets him punish himself...INSTANTLY when he pulls that.


That is basically how an overcheck works. What it is still used for is to prevent driving horses from being able to nibble grass. It goes from the bit, between his ears and attaches to the water hook on a saddle (driving harness) - in your case it would attach to the saddle horn.

What Allison posted would work great in your situation.


----------



## heartprints62 (Feb 27, 2010)

Thanks everyone for the help! I have lots of ideas to try before I start getting a harsher bit. Thats exactly what I was hoping for!


----------



## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

heartprints62 said:


> Thanks everyone for the help! I have lots of ideas to try before I start getting a harsher bit. Thats exactly what I was hoping for!


 
GOOD FOR YOU!!! Putting a harsh bit in a 2 year old is NEVER the way to go, IMO. Way too early to pull out the "big guns". Good call on your part.

Quick, fair correction is what is needed. Pull her up, and send her forward with a strong leg (not allowing her to burst forward, however).


----------



## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

heartprints62 said:


> Ah-haa! MH that's a great idea! Thanks!
> 
> And yes, she's a doll =\ 2 years old, 15.5hh, 1300lbs of lazy, spoiled, attitude!


I would stop. Back up. And start from the beginning. If she is only a 2 year old then she isn't really ready for hours in the saddle. Also, if she is 2 and only has 30 days under her belt then you are skipping a ton of the basics. I would not concern myself with the bit just yet, I'd work on some of the more basic concepts. Just my thought. (PS - I think you have a typo on her height)


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

heartprints62 said:


> ...The problem with that also is that when she goes back home, they would never do that to her, so she would go right back to square one.


Sounds like that is going to happen no matter what you do...


----------



## heartprints62 (Feb 27, 2010)

Farmpony - She is a long 2 year old so she has about a year of riding experience, she was a 4H horse for a local girl, then bought by an older gentleman for his grandkids.... She knows the basics and is trained relatively well for what she has been taught. I got called by the older gentleman because she was snatching people out of the saddle, over her head (his 21 yo niece). He only wants me to break that habit, no do any further training. I did succesfully break her of it with a rope nose hackamore and rode her for the 30 days with no problems. I am aware that she doesn't need to be ridden for long periods of time thus my rides on her were kept under 45 min. I informed the owners of this need for this as well (which they were fine with, they only plan on letting the kids ride around their property anyways). 
And yes, I already addressed my typo =)

bsms- yes, you are probably right. But just because I am aware of the possibility of her backtracking at home doesn't mean I can half *** the job. I still have a service to preform for a paying customer.


----------



## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Wonder if you could get one of those things they put on ponies to keep them from grazing when kids ride them....


----------



## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

I posted a link to that anti-grazing device in an earlier post.


----------



## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Our welsh pony was like that so I made a check rein with thin rope. I tied a piece from the snaffle, over the nose to the other side, a bit loose. I then tied the rope to go over his poll and down to the saddle. He had plenty of movement but just not past his knees. He punished himself and eventually gave up. I had to do that to a horse that had a particular fondeness for a certain tall weed in the fall. I put english reins on the bit and looped them over the horn. Worked like a charm.


----------



## heartprints62 (Feb 27, 2010)

Saddlebag said:


> I put english reins on the bit and looped them over the horn. Worked like a charm.


Ohh... I have a friend here that rides English, I bet she could lend me a set to try that out! Great idea! Thanks Saddlebag!


----------



## jdw (Mar 17, 2011)

Let us know how it works for her. I am curious....


----------



## coffeeaddict (Jun 18, 2010)

Just wanted to comment because my horse did the exact same thing when I first got her. My trainer suggested that I drop one rein and brace with the other. Keep bracing until she gives to the bit then release and move her forward. 

This stopped her in her tracks. It was much harder for her to pull on only one rein than two, and she quickly learned that I would back off once she stopped. Couple days of this was all it took and she hasn't done it since.


----------



## horsinaround39x (Jul 26, 2011)

It sounds like she might just not like the bit in her mouth. My horse Knotch did a watered down version of that. Not in any way as ridiculous as she, but i wonder if you could try a rubber snaffle. The owners get sort of what they want, and the horse may like the feel better. If she works in a hackamore this COULD help, since hacomores aren't in her mouth. it may be worth a try. Also, you could pop her shoulder when she does that, and quickly make her lope small circles for a while. it almost completely cured my horse. I know you have an extreme case, but at this point,, whatever could help is worth a try. Also (sorry this is going on forever), I found a lot of ground work respect excersizes make horses more prone to listen to you no matter what. Not just lunging, but backing and side passing, doing a walking half pass on a lead line. You could also try driving her with the bit they want on the ground, so the fear of falling and being seriously injured isn't there. plus when she pulls you could make her lunge around you and get her focused. Shes a young horse, not fully grown, a lot of riding isn't good for her (i know you're only doing 45 minutes a day which isn't really too much but it still could be bad for her bones) so maybe you could split that time with ground work, work on the ground 20, ride the rest? i hope this helps you at least a little bit! good luck!!!


----------



## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

Two thoughts:

The first is that they have the wrong horse. If they aren't going to be using a 2 year old regularly, no matter what you do, it will eventually revert since it will not have the time put on him that he needs and will be ridden by beginners (if I understand it correctly)

The second is that my current trail horse, Bonnie (my new Paint) is like that. She is 14, hates a bit but loves a "Little S" hack. I can do anything in the world with her in that hack that I can do with any other horse in a bit. What is their problem with a hack? Is it because they feel that there is no control? Obviously that is incorrect.


----------



## heartprints62 (Feb 27, 2010)

Thanks for the advice horsinaround, that exactly what I did this morning, just stayed off and worked on the ground. She is an angel in a halter/leadrope situation, so I did all of her ground work in bit/bridle. I'm going to ride her this evening when it cools down a little. 

Iridehorses- I have discussed that fact with them (they have the wrong horse) but she's the "pretty" one that they wanted "and she wont be young forever...." they just don't understand that the work from here to there is constant. This is a classic example of the difference between a horse-owner and a horse-person. I can only offer them the knowledge I have and hope they are willing to learn.... so far it hasn't been such, but I'm doing the best I can for the horse.
To answer your question, I have NO IDEA why they are opposed to the hackamore. I'm getting the feeling its because thats what they think it's "suppose to be like", they have no concept of the reality of horsemanship, just old westerns with a horse tacked up, bit included, and riding off into the sunset..... ::insert deep sigh here::


----------



## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

Sometimes it's all you can do just to keep some people from killing themselves. If I had that situation, I would walk away. If they aren't willing to understand or even listen to someone with experience, then no matter what you do, it will not be good enough for long; it's the horse who comes out the looser but the blame goes to you in their mind.


----------



## heartprints62 (Feb 27, 2010)

iridehorses said:


> ... then no matter what you do, it will not be good enough for long; it's the horse who comes out the looser but the blame goes to you in their mind.


 
You're so right. 

Truth be told, thats why I offered to give them 30 more days for free, so that I could attempt to salvage any attitude toward myself that they might pass on to others. And in doing so, I had hopes for maybe getting a little extra time to teach them some things.


----------



## Oakley Eastern Miss (Aug 10, 2010)

Just a small input with the anti-grazing suggestion. I tried something similar on my mare who has a very similar and annoying habit, it worked for a short time until she got wise to it. She then started to throw her head up instead so you might find it pushes the problem elsewhere if the horse is smart  Good luck with it though, shame they cant see the hackamore solution staring at them in the face!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## heartprints62 (Feb 27, 2010)

Update:

Tried working mare with rope 4knot halter AND bridle on with reins clipped to both.... epic fail.....

Tried leaving lead rope on halter and giving her a stern, heavy correction when she started to tip her head before the "fight" as I've come to call it, she listened to that for about 2min, then started this game where she would let me correct her then she would spin toward the pulling side and again drop her head.

SOoo.... I looped the leadrope around the saddle horn with VERY little slack so that she couldn't get much if any head movement other than natural headset and it gave her the regular pressure of the halter that she respects..... es no workie......

To say the least I feel that I am losing respect from this horse. I was getting off of her before I lost my temper to frustration. I have never lost my patience before! So I put her back in the rope hackamore and got her listening again, gonna try her in my Reinsman combo bit tomorrow. 

My game plan now is to wean her from one to the other. Start with the combo bit (even though, Bubba, I know its harsh on the nose but I'm hoping that the harshest I have to get without getting harsh inside her mouth) then go to a half-breed side pull, then hopefully down to a plain snaffle.... wish me luck... I have less than 3 weeks.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Did you ever figure out why she is doing this? Is there any physical reason? Sometimes it can be really unexpected. Do you think it is only a work evasion tactic?


----------



## heartprints62 (Feb 27, 2010)

Tiny- I'm pretty sure it is. I personally took her to the vet and had her teeth checked, vet said her mouth looked great, wolf teeth have been pulled even. So I don't think its a comfort thing. She doesn't do this AT all in the round pen or arena, or walking down the gravel driveway because there is no grass to try to get to. I can line her up in the middle of the street and she's fine. It's just when a car comes and I have to move her to the ditch, the fight is on and then I can't get her back to the road. However, the owners want to trail ride and let the grandkids ride her around the pasture.


----------



## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

farmpony84 said:


> I would stop. Back up. And start from the beginning. If she is only a 2 year old then she isn't really ready for hours in the saddle. Also, if she is 2 and only has 30 days under her belt then you are skipping a ton of the basics. I would not concern myself with the bit just yet, I'd work on some of the more basic concepts. Just my thought. (PS - I think you have a typo on her height)


This is the best advice yet. this horse needs to go back to the drawing board & fix the holes in it's training! Trying out a bunch of new bits isn't fixing things. This horse is a late 2 yr old & has about a year of riding on her?? :shock: :-x or did I read something wrong...
IMO,She has probably be ridden off the face for most of her training/riding experiences & now is pulling away grabbing bit in her way of taking control of it,pulling it away from rider who is on her face too much,rather than being asked to move off leg & seat for direction. Combination of lack of good foundation training,riders that need lessons & a young horse that has been asked alot,mentally not mature & is now rebelling. Need to back up & revisit some of that early training with this horse not try fix it with a bandaid, ie: new bit :-(


----------



## heartprints62 (Feb 27, 2010)

painted- as I've already stated, if she were my horse, that is EXACTLY what I would do. Take her back to the beginning. That was what I offered for her owners, but they wanted the "bandaid" fix instead. I can only do what I am asked to do, being as it's not my horse. They saddle broke her and started her riding training as a 20 month old, so yes, she has almost a year of riding on her. Again, I had no control over her training/upbringing. I know how it should have been done, but she's not my horse. 


Update: She is riding well in a half breed sidepull right now, not grabbing the bit or yanking her head at all. I also started making her disengage hindquarters under saddle when she started to drop her head at all, that helped a lot, because all the sudden when her head dropped she had to move her feet and was less likely to able to get the bite of grass. She is a smart horse, just been allowed to get away with murder with her owners. Were doing some direction changes and trotting some polls right now, along with the disengaging and one rein stops, still keeping our rides to 30 min or less (too hot to do any more!) Keeps her moving and thinking instead of concentrating on grazing. She does listen to seat and leg cues, gets better every day. Stopping with the seat and leg cues have never been an issue, just the head thing so she could eat. 

Thank again to everyone that has given me advice along the way. Even as backwards or "bandaid" fix as it may seem to MANY of us, I have appreciated the moral support. I'm glad to see that I'm not the only person that thinks the owners are complete morons. =) As I stated before, I'm just trying to do my best, for the situation given, for the horse.


----------

