# Why is collecting a horse so hard :(



## manca (Feb 23, 2011)

I've been thaught that to collect a horse means to get his head on the bit. I've been taught to do this with much pressure on horses mouth. So when I get my own horse I didn't do it. That's been for 3 years...

Some time ago I was riding up the hill and I was actually holding reins in my hands because she was a bit 'ful of energy' that day. I wasn't pulling or anything, just holding the reins, I'm used to having them long all the time. A car drove behind us and I wanted to go a little bit faster so we could move off the road. My mare collected herself, it was a different feeling, riding her, like she put her back up and she dropped her head a bit, but still not as much as my extrainer always wanted. 
Then I was injured and couldn't ride for 3 weeks. I did research on the net and found out collecting a horse isn't only being on the bit.

I tried to collect her today again, on that hill, but succed only once from 4 times (I went up and down, up and down, lol). I'll keep trying. She doesn't have any muscles on her topline and I want them.

Any advice?


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

manca said:


> I've been thaught that to collect a horse means to get his head on the bit. I've been taught to do this with much pressure on horses mouth. So when I get my own horse I didn't do it. That's been for 3 years...


NO!

All you are doing is getting the head into a certain position. There is nothing to connect that to anything related to collection.


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## manca (Feb 23, 2011)

I have a feeling you should read again 

See I said:


> So when I get my own horse I didn't do it.





> I did research on the net and found out collecting a horse isn't only being on the bit.


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## Lonannuniel (Jun 13, 2008)

I am still learning about collection personally, so this is partially a 'subbing' comment, but anyway...

go slowly. these muscles are built up over time, and too much stress too quickly can cause terrible results ( personal experience on that one * covers face in embarrassment* )

^-^ there's my small bit of advice, can't wait to see what others suggest!


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## amymarie57 (Feb 20, 2011)

I'm having a tough time with it too. My trainer has me doing a ton of circles and it's the greatest feeling when I know he's collected but I can't maintain it for long and I lose all connection when I transition :shock:. When I lease this summer I'll have more time to dedicate to it. Sorry I have little advice/experience but I know that circles can help


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Collection has nothing to do with where the horse's head is - it's all about the horse carrying itself properly - and that is HARD! If you're sitting in a chair right now - are you sitting up straight with your shoulders back? No? Correct it - it's hard to hold over a period of time - and you're sitting! 
It takes a lot of muscle memory, and a lot of work - that's why it's so hard 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Seat Into Legs Into Hands To Soften. You must ride the back end, to get the front end. It's like a domino effect, you cannot have the last Domino fall, until the first starts the chain reaction.

Inside leg into outside rein. When I rode with Beitre Herbert Siebel *sorry for the incorrect spelling* when he came to my neck of the woods to host a clinic, whom is from the Spanish Riding School - *I learnt that your seat rides the back end, your legs ride the ribs and your hands ride the shoulders.*

Your seat is there to engage that back end. To activate it, to get it moving. Your legs are there to lift the ribs/spine up into your seat, and your hands are there to not only allow that energy you've created to recycle back through, but also to keep the shoulders under your horse itself, for balance.

Your seat must be there to work with your legs, your legs must be there to work with your seat, your seat and legs are there to work with your hands, and without your hands all that energy you've created will be lost.

I suggest you start taking up Dressage Lessons. Or finding clinics in your area so you can sign up to take a session in dressage under an Upper Level Rider to help and guide you on the correct path.

All your horses body parts must be working in unison, to gain the desired effect. True Collection takes a long time to achieve.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

You see, before a horse can collect, he must be moving properly. He must be able to move FORWARD and carry himself well before he can start to collect.

You are riding your horse from the head with your hands with no knowledge of what his haunch is doing. You must concentrate on what the rear end is doing and kinda forget about what the front is doing, for now. When he engages his haunch and starts to move forward into the bridle and meets a steady supportive hand, he can start learning to carry himself in that "frame" you are looking for. The "head set" is the end result of everything else working properly.

Your instructor has little real knowledge of dressage if she is telling you to haul in on the reins without using your legs first. I would suggest finding a more knowledgeable instructor before you damage your horse's love of contact with you.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Great post Allison!


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## hflmusicislife (Dec 15, 2010)

^^ You two did an awesome job explaining it!
I've started up dressage lessons, and she's been helping me get my mare to move correctly. She told me to get her collected, I need to squeeze to keep the impulsion in her hind end, but also keep contact with her mouth. In other words, pulling back is going to do nothing to her back end; that comes from your seat and legs, NOT your hands. 

Getting your horse to move properly doesn't just happen over night though. Unfortunately it takes more than just a few rides to get a horse to move beautifully.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Here is an example. I had a woman bring a wonderful 17+ hand horse to a clinic I taught in Ontario last month. The woman was a good rider and the horse was a nice mover, but the connection between impulsion and haunch was just inconsistent. As a result, there was some really hollow moments.










If the owner is willing, I am always ready to hop on a student's horse so I can feel what the horse is doing and what it will take to correct it. Then, I can coach the rider through it easier. When I got on her I was able to tell that the connection between seat and leg just weren't consistent. And, she needed MUCH more leg than the rider thought. Within about 5 minutes the horse had an AHA! moment and suddenly shifted into forward. Yes, she worked much harder, but she was relaxed and happy doing it.











You need to understand that this is still not "collection". That is a way down the road when this horse is able to have the strength to carry himself much longer.

Knowing what was needed it took no time to help the owner find that special connection, too. They will be an awesome combination.


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## Hidalgo13 (Dec 24, 2010)

You guys have posted very good and useful stuff! I'm noting it down.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

MIE and Allison said it all already. I just want to add that teaching horse to collect doesn't come overnight (especially if the rider is not very experienced). 

BTW, good point, Allison. My trainer suggested me the same with my qh: get on her to see why neither of us can get it. She was able to make her move round (although not for long as she never did it before + lack of muscles) and it was easier to progress after that. P.S. She refused to get on my paint though... :lol:


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

OP, what you need now, to understand about collection (now that you have worked out that it has nothing to do with pulling on the reins), is that collection is NOT just a horse working round and over the back, and off the forehand. 
As Allison said above with those photos - she had the horse off the forehand, into the bridle and much better over the back, however this is not collection. This is good, basic level dressage work how any horse should and can be working.

Collection is the next step up, and is not a singular term like 'medium trot', 'extended canter' and 'pirouette'. Collection comes in degrees. Collection refers to the horse beginning to transfer more weight over it's hind legs, which then transfers the power and engagement that you are creating in the hind legs, from forward momentum, to upwards energy. The more weight it transfers over the hind legs, the more elevated the pace will become, which is when you get piaffe and passage from the trot, and canter pirouettes from the canter. 
The back is round and carrying the rider, poll at the highest point and the reins and bit are only there to 'complete the circuit' and act as a light guided in terms of flexion and maintaining a connection. If you ride with a loop in your reins, you have no connection and won't get "Dressage-collection" (for lack of a better term - apologies, I'm hungover!), just as if you are pulling back on your reins you're not getting a connection as by pulling the reins, you are essentially pushing the hind legs backwards. 

A horse CANNOT be in collection unless it has developed the strength and training to do so. Just like a very unfit person who does not have very good muscle tone and strength, cannot lift 50kg weights the first day that they start training. It's all about gradual training and fitness work. A racehorse doesn't get broken in and then go and race the next day does it? No - it gets conditioned gradually with a very careful training program until it is racing fit. 
Unfortunately people seem to take a horse's generous nature for granted and push too hard too fast, asking the horse to perform flying changes and pirouettes, before the poor thing is anywhere near fit enough to maintain this level of work. Then they wonder why the horse has broken down at 6 years old.


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## manca (Feb 23, 2011)

Thanks everybody 
I know it'll take a long time to build her muscles. I only worked for 30 minutes yesterday (including warming up and cooling down). I'm going to ride today again and give her a day of tomorrow (she's not used to work).
I see that I didn't do it right even now... I only used my legs and reins. With seat you mean I have to intensly move with my horse (like in sitting trot)?
Allison, my horse moves just like the brown horse in the first pic. 
Another question: do I need perfectly collected horse if I'm a trail rider? Kayty mentioned piaffes, pirouettes and other things, I understand-you could only do this if you have collected horse. 
I want my horse healthy and enjoying riding but I'm confused about what exactly I'm looking for. Do I want perfectly collected horse or horse that carries himself like a horse in second picture, although he's not collected?

I see I'll really need a trainer for this one...


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

What others have already said is very helpful  and spot on! I'll just add that it has taken me all winter to teach my mare to truly collect and that's after a year of just getting her muscles built up so it certainly won't happen overnight. 

Just be patient and keep training and you and your horse's hard work will pay off in the end 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

manca said:


> Thanks everybody
> 
> I want my horse healthy and enjoying riding but I'm confused about what exactly I'm looking for. Do I want perfectly collected horse or horse that carries himself like a horse in second picture, although he's not collected?
> 
> I see I'll really need a trainer for this one...


If trail riding is what you do then you are not looking for a collected horse as described by the higher levels of dressage.

You should be aiming for a horse like the picture of the second horse but in a more "open" frame would be more than adequate.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Great thread and some great posts. 

I want to piggyback on some of the things that Allison and Kayty said. 

It's important to be very precise in your terminology; collection, on the bit, on the aids are used to mean a variety of things to a variety of people and disciplines and it contributes to the misunderstanding and confusion. 

I dislike the terms "on the bit" and "in a frame" because it encourages the idea that you acheive it by riding the bit or the horse's head. I much prefer the term "on the aids." The second photo Allison post above shows a horse nicely on the aids - moving from behind, *connected* back to front, round through the back, attentive and obedient. You mostly feel this through the horses back; it rises underneath the saddle and suddenly the horses' rhythym is very clear. Your contact through the reins is more distinct because the horse has "picked up the phone" on his side of the conversation. Where the horse's head is positioned is incidental at this point; if the rest is correct, the horse will likely have flexed at the poll and brought his face closer to vertical, but really, it's the last thing to consider. This is the useful place from which all good quality flat work comes. 

"Collection" is further along in the process. "On the aids" is the foundation for developing collection, but there are a lot of other building blocks on the foundation before you can get to collection: fitness and muscle ability, inside leg to outside rein, and the rest of the training scale - rhythm, suppleness, contact, impulsion, straightness. You can consider "on the aids" pre-collection if you wish. 

Collection occurs when the horse "sits" behind, increases the angulation in all the joints of his hind limbs, shifts his balance rearward, and lengthens his topline while shortening his bottomline. 

That some trainers muddy the waters further by calling on the aids "collected" makes it even harder for a riding student to understand. 

Doesn't necessarily mean that they're bad trainers or instructors. However, if anyone attempting to teach these concepts starts out with the position of the head or how to ride the head and neck - RUN AWAY!

ETA: Agree with Spyder ^^ For trail riding and general riding, you want a horse that's connected, or on the aids - he'll move and cover ground more efficiently, and be more of a pleasure to ride. 

End rant, sorry.


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## manca (Feb 23, 2011)

Everybody, you are a huge help 
Are there any good books on this topic? 
And if we stay on this elements: rhythm, suppleness, contact, impulsion, straightness, how far should trail horses and riders come? To contact?


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Really depends on how far you want to go and how much time you want to put in. There are lots of happy trail riders with horses that are not connected and go mostly on loose reins. Nothing wrong with that. 

Getting the horse pushing from behind and using his/her back will make for more efficient movement and a more enjoyable ride, IMO.

Personally, I want a horse that does that, accepts contact, that I can shorten and lengthen at will, and holds a steady rhythm without a lot of help from me, and is naturally forward moving. 

Other than stopping short of developing true collection , it just depends on how far you wish to go.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

In all honesty, I would forget about "collection" for a trail horse. A good connection with the haunch is helpful, but lets face it....it is not something that should be used for long hours of a trail ride. It takes a lot of fitness and strength to use themselves in this manner.

When I trail ride, I prefer to have a horse go on a loose rein, maybe even a little heavy on the forehand. I want us both to enjoy ourselves and don't appreciate the fussing during this calm time together. Responsive to the aides, yes. Self carrying and "in the bridle", no.


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## marybonus (Apr 27, 2011)

Thank you so much Allison! I am learning so much reading you!!! I have a doubt. If I understood correctly, we shouldn't be working on our horse's mouth (for them to bring their heads down) but we should start with the haunches?


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Mouth, no. Haunch, yes. All I can say is polish those legs of yours. That is the steam for your horse's engine. I don't mean kicking. I mean squeezing...like squeezing a tube of toothpaste. I rarely kick a horse. But my legs are strong enough that when I squeeze them, the horse's eyes start to pop out!! Just kidding.....

The legs create the energy. All the hands do is decide how that energy is to be used/controlled. Never just pulling back on the head.


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## marybonus (Apr 27, 2011)

I'll definitely work on everything you say! Can't wait to get to my Yapa now to start practising! I'll keep you posted!


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Yeah mate if you're just wanting to trail ride and nothing else, the horse should just be happy to go along on a loose rein, pushing itself along with the hindquarters and happily stretching the head and neck down. Nothing more  As Allison said, it takes a lot of muscle and fitness for a horse to work connection and 'on the aids' so doing this over a long distance trail riding will tire the horse out too much.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Mary, just make sure you provide us with lots of photos!!


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## manca (Feb 23, 2011)

You know I used to ride on loose reins for 3 years, not a thought about collection or on the bit... Now my mare is completly muscleless on her topline. 
I just sat there, leave her alone, and told her from time to time, go left, trot, walk,etc... We were just enjoying. I think she would be more comfortable if she would carry me not with bones, but with muscles, but there are not any. Plus I worry about saddle fit, there is a difference between muscles and no muscles.


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## Sahara (Jul 23, 2010)

Have you ever tried trotting her over poles? This really makes them engage the abdominal muscles and, in turn, helps to build the topline.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

I now do 99% trail riding and my horse's top line is in great shape. If all you are doing is ring work then that could be the problem but out on the trail, my horses use all their muscles having to negotiate obstacles and terrain all at different speeds.


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## manca (Feb 23, 2011)

> I now do 99% trail riding and my horse's top line is in great shape. If all you are doing is ring work then that could be the problem but out on the trail, my horses use all their muscles having to negotiate obstacles and terrain all at different speeds.


Then I'm doing something wrong... Could you please explain what do you mean with ring work? I struggle with english when it comes to new horse term.

Tnx, Sahara, I'll do more with poles, this is a really good idea. I didn't do it since last summer, and I really enjoy this.

Any other things, anyone, to work on my mare's topline?
I'll take a pic today, you'll see how she looks.

And one more question. When you work with a horse that isn't fit, that was out of work for awhile and lacks muscles, how long/hard do you work him and when do you know you have to stop?
I'm working with her now for about 45minutes a day, walk and trot. I'm still trotting only on flat ground and only walk on hills, but I wonder when I'm safe to work her more. I usually stop when she starts sweating and then it takes another 10 minutes to cool her down. Am I doing too much/too little?


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

By ring Work I mean only in an arena or arena type setting. That means there is nothing challanging for your horse to do so she really doesn't have to use all her muscles. Think of a biker who only cycles around a track or on the street verses one who climbs mountains.

When I start a horse back to work (one that has had a real long time off), I start them for about an hour in my fields which has some hills to it. I'll do a lot of walking for the first week (4 days) and introduce trotting by the end of the week. On the second week I'll take them out on a trail for an hour or 2 at the most. On the trail I try to follow my method of doing a Hunter's Pace - walk down hills, trot the flats, canter up hill. After about a month, I feel my horse is ready for a typical 2 to 4 hour ride but I still take it easy for a while and monitor her. BTW, my horses are on 24/7 turnout.

It sounds to me like you are not pushing your horse enough.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

manca, 

I think we're struggling with different uses of the same terms again.

If your horse has no muscling along its topline even when in steady work; it's likely that he/she travels inverted or hollow, using other muscles instead of the muscles of its topline. 

You can teach your horse to go in a different frame, not hollow or inverted. This doesn't mean you're teaching "on the aids" or collection, just that you're asking the horse to use itself more efficiently. Think of it as a continium - on the far left side of the continium is a horse that travels incorrectly or badly; hollow and inverted. Next to that is a horse that travels like a well broke trail horse or a hunter - using its topline, traveling on loose rein or light, passive contact. Next on the line is a horse that travels on active contact and is connected back to front, next is a horse "on the aids" that has rounded through its back, and so on, til you get to the far right hand side of the line, which is a horse traveling in dressage quality collection - think a Lipanzanner or Gran Prix dressage horse. 

You just want to move one notch over on the line, which I personally think will be good for your horse's fitness and make him a more enjoyable trail partner. The suggestions that other posters gave you for exercises are all good.


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## getupasb (May 18, 2011)

MIEventer said:


> Seat Into Legs Into Hands To Soften. You must ride the back end, to get the front end. It's like a domino effect, you cannot have the last Domino fall, until the first starts the chain reaction.
> 
> Inside leg into outside rein. When I rode with Beitre Herbert Siebel *sorry for the incorrect spelling* when he came to my neck of the woods to host a clinic, whom is from the Spanish Riding School - *I learnt that your seat rides the back end, your legs ride the ribs and your hands ride the shoulders.*
> 
> ...


This! This is exactly what I have been taught by my trainer.


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## manca (Feb 23, 2011)

Sorry I wasn't checking forum for some time, because the last days in school can be a bit hard...

I rode Candy for once or twice a week in the winter, for just half an hour. Mostly ring work.
Then, in the first month of good weather, I started working more, on trails and in "round pen" (it's nothing with a fence, it just a orchard with flat ground). But after few weeks I had to stop riding because of an injury. So she wasn't ridden seriously since last autumn.

She looked like this in april:

















I'm riding for a month now, I changed her food a bit too, and she looks like this:















(I think that it helped a lot that she gained a bit of weight)

Two years ago (had her for a year that time, and it was the end of the summer, so that means she was fit) she looked like this:









I've been working on hills this week too, and twice over poles. I'll work harder. I really messed up all the terms, but I think that I understand now. At least a little bit 
Thanks for advices everybody  You are really helpful.


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