# Pawing at me.



## racheld90 (Dec 14, 2011)

My 17.3h percheron gelding, has started throwing his front foot out and pawing at me when i have him on lead or in the pasture. What is the best way too stop this? He is way to big to be doing this! His hoof is as big as a soccer ball :lol:


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## MakeYourMark (Feb 10, 2012)

What he's doing is called "striking," and it's disrespectful and dangerous when a _normal_ horse does it. You need to end this as soon as possible, before you or someone else gets hurt. When he does this, give a firm, quick jerk on the lead. If he continues, ask him to back up. You can smack him with your hand, or carry a dressage whip. Don't go psycho and beat him up, but quick, firm, discipline is necessary. You need to put an end to this _now_.


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## racheld90 (Dec 14, 2011)

*..*



MakeYourMark said:


> What he's doing is called "striking," and it's disrespectful and dangerous when a _normal_ horse does it. You need to end this as soon as possible, before you or someone else gets hurt. When he does this, give a firm, quick jerk on the lead. If he continues, ask him to back up. You can smack him with your hand, or carry a dressage whip. Don't go psycho and beat him up, but quick, firm, discipline is necessary. You need to put an end to this _now_.


Message Received! I will work with him this weekend! Thank YoU


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I would take a whip and give him a flick with it , on his leg, the instant he did that.


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## DRichmond (Mar 13, 2012)

Questions:

How old is he, and how long has he been with you?

Is he the only horse you have? Are there other horses with or around him?


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## racheld90 (Dec 14, 2011)

DRichmond said:


> Questions:
> 
> How old is he, and how long has he been with you?
> 
> Is he the only horse you have? Are there other horses with or around him?


He was 6 years old in Dec, i have had him since he was 5 months old.
He is with a old Percheron mare and a cow.
He has done it twice, it just started. And he does it real fast, once i tell him to stop slap him on the chest, then hes fine rest of the time.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

A slap on the chest is nothing to any horse, certainly not a heavy horse!

I do not care if the horse is six weeks. six months, six years or twenty six, _this is dangerous behaviour_
I do not carry a dressage whip I use my feet. If the horse offers its front foot at me then it meets with the side of my foot hard across its shin. My foot is always with me a whip is not!

A weanling started doing this when I went to feed. It was not particularly harsh but the try on was there. It only took one lesson for him to learn that trying it on was not worth it.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

A horse that strikes is a horse that will give you two knee caps. It is dangerous, pure and simple. I'd be doing a heck of a lot more than giving him a little flick of a whip or slap on the chest. A horse strikes at me, and my meagre 5'3 (if that) frame turns into a giant, fire breathing dragon. Said horse doesn't know whats hit it, only that striking was a really bad idea! As soon as that hoof comes up to strike, I'd be running at the horse, chasing it backwards, yelling at it etc. Basically, as has been said many times before, make that horse think that it is going to die for a few seconds. Then go back to total peace and continue what you were doing before. 

Striking is a behaviour that is not to be tolerated, it's not cute or funny. That's why I think teaching a horse 'tricks' like shaking hands and counting is ridiculously stupid - it turns into striking, and striking turns into a person with two knee caps in the back of an ambulance.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

If this horse is a dominant, calm, deliberate type, rather than a nervous type, he might up the ante when you get punitive with him. Stay out of his strike zone, & give him some motivation to cooperate with you. Is he very food-oriented? If so, use treats to get him guessing & mentally engaged with you.

"Disrespect" is often really a lack of training & the horse not understanding what the human wants.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Good idea, use treats - great way to make them bolstery and more likely to strike


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Yes, it's the use of psychology rather than punishments. A treat can also be offered when a cinchy horse goes to bite one; the horse will be pleasantly surprised & not made more prone to bite, in the experience of many people.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

So when the horse swings its head to bite, you give it a treat?








Makes sense.......


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Northern said:


> Yes, it's the use of psychology rather than punishments. A treat can also be offered when a cinchy horse goes to bite one; the horse will be pleasantly surprised & not made more prone to bite, in the experience of many people.


You're using human psychology. Horse psychology is different. You should be the lead mare. If he is doing what you want, you let him be. No reaction is his reward. A scratch or a pat is letting him know you are pleased with him. 

If he does something you don't want him to do, you have to also be the lead mare in that case. What does a lead mare do? She doesn't offer him a nice snack and say "please don't try that with me again". She chases him off, punishes him until he clearly gets her message - "do that again and I will ****ing murder you".


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## DRichmond (Mar 13, 2012)

I don't know how much you spend with him daily, whether you ride him or what your day to day activities are with him, but it sounds to me like he's trying to convey something to you the only way he can think to do so. I agree it's not a cool behavior but whatever it is he's trying to say, what do you think it is?

Do you think he may need more stimulation, either from more activity, or different type of activity?


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

Is the horse really striking at you? What other signs is he giving? Are his ears pinned? Does he deliberately swish his tail, not like he's swatting at flies? Are you in directly in front of him when he does it? Or is it like he's trying to dig a hole, which would be pawing. Is he a calm or nervous horse? Is he anticipating something?

A horse striking out is bad. Personally I would not strike back at him but put him to work. Make him back away or do a sending exercise with him, basically lunging him in half circles. Just make his feet move and quickly. Striking back at him could turn into a game for him at 6 years old. 

Why is he striking or pawing? There can be several reasons. He could be testing or challenging you. Horses will strike out at each other in play. He doesn't have a "playmate" in his pasture until you come in. This is why I think it would not be wise to strike back at him. He could be just pawing out of boredom, anticipating getting to go out of the pasture or getting feed, out of nervousness or anxiety, and the list goes on. Sometimes they will do it so you give them attention. 

You need to first figure out if he's really striking at you or just pawing. Then you need to figure out why he's doing it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

It doesn't matter if the horse is "trying to say something". Behavior that puts a person at risk has to be quickly stamped out. No matter what, striking at someone is not acceptable - I don't care if the horse is in pain or under mental torture. There is absolutely no excuse for a 500kg animal being allowed to do something that can injure it's handler so significantly.


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

Yes the behavior needs to be stopped quickly. The issue is how to stop it. Horses don't see correction as a punishment. If you use the same correction every time he misbehaves, that can have adverse affects. If you whack the horse as correction, he can become fearful of getting whacked and fearful of humans. If you make him run everytime, you can have a horse that won't stand still when you want him to. If you don't try to figure out why the horse behaves that way, the problem behavior will continue and can become worse. 

Horses are pretty simple to understand. They are action/reaction driven. If their action gets a reaction they don't want, they change their action. If their action gets no reaction or a reaction they want, they will repeat it. Like I said, they don't see correction as a punishment, but as a reaction. So our reaction should be done with thought of why the horse is doing it and not as a punishment to just stop the behavior. 

To be a good trainer, you need to communicate with the horse and understand them. It is a lot like raising kids but it's not in some respects. "You'll do this because I said so" may work most of the time but not always. With communication, it does need to be a two way street at times too. We need to listen or read them to understand them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Those who are scoffing at giving a nippy or striking horse a treat are the ones using human psychology, since, as I said, it's WORKED many times. (Although I've not heard of it working for striking, just for biting; but there's no reason why it wouldn't work for simply another form of "aggression", as long as one stays out of the strike zone). 

More explanation: The horse's mental & physical pattern gets interrupted, & a Friendly gesture from human improves a situation which the horse associated with misery. You'll note that a cinchy horse has a pattern of annoyance & biting that can be unrelated to how she's being cinched NOW (politely), so you can see how a treat, rather than punishment, is effective. Of course, the horse will show what works.

If horse is striking to test leadership, which is likely, this is not grounds for punishment, since testing for leadership is hardwired horse behaviour, & so rather than PUNISH, one simply does something to show one is a GOOD leader (speaks horse). That might be offering pattern interrupt & a pleasant experience (feeling of the horse, so he can feel back to you) by a surprise treat, or it might be pulling a plastic bag out of one's pocket & moving the horse's feet, but not with the human interpretation of "disrespect" & its accompanying indignation, but calmly & SLOWLY moving one foot at a time.


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## BigGreyHorse (Sep 28, 2009)

I've read this several times now and I still don't understand how giving a treat for striking is not re-enforcing the bad behavior. I get that maybe the horse doesn't perceive the behavior as "bad" but, for the health & safety of humans, he needs to associate striking with something unpleasant. I don't think horses consider food unpleasant--at least mine don't.


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## Tianimalz (Jan 6, 2009)

BigGreyHorse said:


> I don't think horses consider food unpleasant--at least mine don't.


Depends on the food :rofl: Maybe if I force some nasty smelling cheese down my mares throat every time she tested me, she'd stop :rofl: :rofl:

Kidding, of course. :wink:


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## IdeaHamster (Sep 30, 2010)

_



If horse is striking to test leadership, which is likely, this is not grounds for punishment, since testing for leadership is hardwired horse behaviour, & so rather than PUNISH, one simply does something to show one is a GOOD leader (speaks horse). That might be offering pattern interrupt & a pleasant experience (feeling of the horse, so he can feel back to you) by a surprise treat, or it might be pulling a plastic bag out of one's pocket & moving the horse's feet, but not with the human interpretation of "disrespect" & its accompanying indignation, but calmly & SLOWLY moving one foot at a time.

Click to expand...

_Yes, the horse is pushing for leadership. But how do you figure speaking horse is any of what you suggest? Anyone that has seen the herd dynamic knows what happens when a subordinate pushes for leadership. We don't have to call it punishment, let's call it an understanding of who IS in charge and what it really takes to get that. And it's not a pleasant experience.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Giving a treat instead of a slap/whip might put you in a better position in the horse's mind, because the lead horse is not the BOSS, but the LEAD, because she PROVIDES FOR the horse: she leads the horse to the grass it's to eat, the water that's good to drink, etc.

Bosses punish & reward, alpha horses lead for herd survival. 

Hope that helps!


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## Tianimalz (Jan 6, 2009)

Northern said:


> Giving a treat instead of a slap/whip might put you in a better position in the horse's mind, because the lead horse is not the BOSS, but the LEAD, because she PROVIDES FOR the horse: she leads the horse to the grass it's to eat, the water that's good to drink, etc.
> 
> Bosses punish & reward, alpha horses lead for herd survival.
> 
> Hope that helps!


Horses don't reward each other though is the problem, I sit back and watch herds interact so I can better understand how to properly handle them and learn their way of life. Your point in these training exercises to me makes no sense, and I'm sure would confuse my mare into thinking you were asking her to misbehave. 

Yes, as being a leader for your horse they will be thankful for you to lead them to nicer pastures (hand grazing), or to creeks while you are out and about, but lead horses do NOT reward other horses, certainly not ones below them on the pecking order! That is a human trait, a sign of negotiation that we exhibit, horses are very different. The only reward they offer is protection in numbers in case things get scary.

I can tell you without a doubt in the world that if a horse lower on the pecking scale than my mare were to strike at her, she'd not only pin her ears, she would STRIKE BACK and with a vengeance, horses guard their hierarchy very seriously unless for natural reasons (such as age) they can no longer hold themselves against stronger horses. This is a way of survival for them, and deeply embedded into their brains. 

There is not a horse in the world, that is truly a leader, that will bend to being dominated or threatened by a lower member of the herd, which is what that "treat" system is. *Horses do not negotiate. *

I'm sorry... I mean this with respect, but I find your logic to be deeply flawed.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Northern said:


> Giving a treat instead of a slap/whip might put you in a better position in the horse's mind, because the lead horse is not the BOSS, but the LEAD, because she PROVIDES FOR the horse: she leads the horse to the grass it's to eat, the water that's good to drink, etc.
> 
> *Bosses punish & reward, alpha horses lead for herd survival. *
> 
> Hope that helps!


 Tianimalz, I'm saying what you're saying. I meant_ human_ bosses, VERSUS horses.

Offering a treat has worked, where punishment hasn't, for reasons mentioned: the horse can get intrigued by you, can get his pattern interrupted without any punishment.

Plus, I _said _that moving his feet might be the thing, just easy, not angrily.

It's not just love, it's not just leadership, it's not just language, but all 3.

People's opinions on the subject don't matter, because the actual facts are with the horse: he will give you his honest response to what you do.


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## Gremmy (Feb 17, 2009)

I completely disagree with this lead mare concept you're projecting Northern, I'm leaving it at that. These aren't facts you are presenting, as your description of how a lead horse behaves is completely off the mark from my own assessment (and that of many others). Not everybody feels that your beliefs are correct.

I reward good behaviour, and correct bad behaviour (I prefer not to call it "punishment" as that brings to mind sending a child for a time out or attaching emotions to the ordeal). This has never resulted in a fearful or aggressive horse, only a well behaved one. If offering a biting horse a treat has worked for _you_, awesome. I however see a suggestion like that as extremely unsafe advice to give a novice.

OP, you've gotten some good advice in this thread. He's at "that age", and needs to learn very quickly that 'pawing' (although by your description it sounds more like 'striking out' to me, which is serious in my books) is absolutely unacceptable. If you can find someone well experienced with ground manners they could help you with the basics, best to set boundaries and get him more respectful of your space now before things escalate.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Nothern, thanks for the laugh, I just hope more novice people don't take this advice as serious.....I've seen so many sour and spoiled horses because people think that treats will buy love from them, it doesn't it just makes a nasty nippy horse..

FACT

I had trained my Fjord X QH with a combination of punishment, a short sharp shock, slap, growl, back up, whatever was needed, and reward, relief of pressure, a stroke, a scratch, and things were going well, he had never ever had a treat.

I bowed to some peer pressure and introduced treats and my nice, respectful, obedient colt turned into a mouth pushy little turd, in a couple of short weeks I made myself a problem that took MONTHS to get over, in fact Hemmy may stil be paying the price of that mistake to this day.

Each to their own but seriously people, do you want an animal that far outweighs you in every way to think of you as a treat dispenser, watch this






You or a ball with holes in, still a treat dispenser to be nudged and lipped until food falls out


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

My situation:

Horse paws

I deliver swift kick to leg with leather boot

Horse stops pawing because pawing does nothing but hurt.

Rinse wash repeat/


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

I have worked with rank and rude stallions who had a reputation for biting and striking. I have a 100% success rate for stopping that behavior. *100%*

And it would NEVER become any practice of mine to give treat rewards for such behavior. 

I carry a dressage whip when I work with these horses. I give one sharp smack on the cannon bone for each infraction, whether bite or strike. Only one correction for one infraction. As soon as they stop doing that behavior, I praise the cessation. The punishment is fair and the stallions catch on almost immediately.

I have cured these behaviors every time. So Northern, fell free to reward your horses for being rank and continue to try to be their "friends". I want a partner more than a friend and, none of my partners OR friends try to inflict damage on me for long. Just please, don't send me your horse when you are done trying to be friends.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Perhaps the reasons that I gave for offering a treat aren't so incomprehensible to the OP as to others here. 

Also, I did say to stay out of the strike zone. If you're out of the strike zone, you won't get struck; some here seem to disagree even with that.

Also, the video of horses manipulating boxes to get treats relates to the human's controlling the treat-dispensing appropriately, NOT at ALL! Perhaps the OP can see this.

OP, if you want to learn more about offering a treat, Parelli is who I learned about it from. You might be able to dig up youtube videos of Pat offering treats to a Left-brain Introvert, wherein you'll see for yourself the "Make me!" attitude dissolve. Klaus Hempfling is another master whom you can find on youtube, doing wonderful things with horses, & giving them treats from his ever-present fanny pack! Then, of course, we have clicker training (food-rewards), which has been effective for many horses. I guess those here would condemn it.

Some highly-respected horsemen, past & present, are of the "NO treats, EVER!" school. I still respect them, but from what I've seen, from PNH & Klaus, & heard about in clicker training, I find no good reason to rule out treats. 

Pat, Klaus, & clicker trainers would've abandoned it if it didn't work. Plus it's not that one has to treat the horse forever; it's an interim step to the horse flat-out wanting to do as you ask, because he's found that you provide for him altogether.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

I'll repeat, for OP, that it was my concern for OP's safety that prompted me to discuss the treat option. I said that your horse might take umbrage to your whacking him, (Left-brain Introverts usually do!), & then you've got a worse relationship. He also might take it as a challenge, & think, "Game on!"! 

I'll repeat, that if pressure works (my example of moving his feet with plastic bag), I'm for it. Allison, et al, no doubt the swift whack has worked for you. Yet sometimes something'll work until it doesn't, with a certain horse.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

The other view OP, for balance, I have just come in from watching my 2 week old foal and her mother and their bay sitter (old arab mare) if the foal comes barreling in to either mare and crowds their space they either lay their ears back and threaten, or actually swing round to nip, depending on how they are feeling. The filly only gets to nurse if she comes in quietly and with some respect.

Horses do not reward others disrespect with any sort of treat, but with retaliation.


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## Gremmy (Feb 17, 2009)

Northern said:


> Also, I did say to stay out of the strike zone. If you're out of the strike zone, you won't get struck; some here seem to disagree even with that.


and what, pray tell, constitutes the "strike zone"? Should we maintain a 5-10 foot radius from the horse at all times?

Any horse I handle is to respect MY space at all times, whether it is one inch or 10 feet away from him. Allowing a horse to believe that he should expect you to respect his space will get you hurt. Period. People are not horses, and therefore I do not agree that people should expect and encourage their horse to treat them like one.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

I was under the impression that clicker and other positive reward training systems, were based on treating the horse when you asked it for a behaviour, and it reacts positively. Not letting it strike and then treating to say 'good widdle horseee now pwease dunt do dat again cos it might hurt me and i dunt weally like it'. Lets be fwends now '

Good old Pat, he is a magician that guy and should be knighted, he can fix any horse problem, with any horse. Wow, what an amazing man!!!!!

*eh, think I might have something stuck in my throat.... *


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Golden Horse said:


> ...The filly only gets to nurse if she comes in quietly and with some respect.
> 
> Horses do not reward others disrespect with any sort of treat, but with retaliation.


 First, we have a baby horse being taught by its mother, as contrasted to a human who doesn't _have_ the savvy nor the physical clout (_unlike_ the mare), wondering how to teach a large horse with powerful hooves. 



Gremmy said:


> and what, pray tell, constitutes the "strike zone"? Should we maintain a 5-10 foot radius from the horse at all times?


 The strike zone is obviously as far as the hoof's going to go forward, since the horse can't strike out to the side.



Kayty said:


> ...
> Good old Pat, he is a magician that guy and should be knighted, he can fix any horse problem, with any horse. Wow, what an amazing man!!!!!
> 
> *eh, think I might have something stuck in my throat.... *


 Oh, ok, kayty finds it necessary to resort to PP-bashing.

Also, the horse, when he swings his head around to bite you as you're cinching up, but finds a treat there, does NOT figure that his going to bite you is being _rewarded_, at least with many horses so far. How do I know? Because if the horses had figured that, PNH would've dropped the strategy ages ago.:rofl:

An analogy, albeit involving humans, which might illustrate the horse's view: I once saw a man approached by a child in a confrontational manner, arms akimbo. He had a lollipop, though, & he offered it to her. Her confrontational thoughts were interrupted by the offering; she nicely took the lollipop & felt friendly toward the man. 

She didn't feel that her confrontational attitude was rewarded with a lollipop; there was no confusion, & not a word was spoken. So, the horses for whom this has worked likewise weren't confused.

I wonder if y'all are denying that treats have helped horses. I don't know more about clicker training than it's food-rewards & has been highly effective for many horses. We can theorize over what will work for a particular horse, but only that horse will show us what the actual facts are.

Good luck, OP!


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

I guess we should all treat horses the way PP treats them? Then I guess we should truly manhandle a showjumper for not liking being bridled? yes, a now infamous fail on PP's list. Or a one eyed terrified horse being struck on the head for being upset by Linda P? 

Be careful holding a fully marketed trainer up for a great example when their own videos show how inconsistent their "friendly" approach can be.

I use some Natural Horsemanship techniques in my training. But I have not drunk deeply of anyone's "kool-aid".

Even Pat and Linda have been shown doing what even I (a person who will smack a horse with a dressage whip) consider abuse.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Northern said:


> Oh, ok, kayty finds it necessary to resort to PP-bashing.
> 
> Also, the horse, when he swings his head around to bite you as you're cinching up, but finds a treat there, does NOT figure that his going to bite you is being _rewarded_, at least with many horses so far. How do I know? Because if the horses had figured that, PNH would've dropped the strategy ages ago.:rofl:
> 
> ...


I'm wondering if you have ever had a horse try to bite you while being saddled? I have & they don't just mosey their head around, they come around _thisfast_ with the intention of biting. 
How in the heck would anyone have the ability to shove a treat in their mouth? Plus, I don't know about you but I use both hands for cinching up. Maybe it would work if you have treats sugar glued to your arm & torso but even then the horse isn't going to think, "That sucked, I won't be doing that again."
To me it makes more sense to give a treat, if you are so inclined, when the horse has stood quietly when you started to cinch up.
A horse should be rewarded_ after_ it does a desired behavior, not in the midst of doing a bad one.


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## Gremmy (Feb 17, 2009)

Northern said:


> The strike zone is obviously as far as the hoof's going to go forward, since *the horse can't strike out to the side.*


Yes. They can.


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## SunnyBlack (May 5, 2012)

Sounds like "Striking" to me. Pawing is a passive reaction characterized by a repeated low sweeping motion of its leg, coupled with an excitement or impatience (or imprinted bad-habit originally created by said variables) of impending drama or expectation. Striking on the other hand is an aggressive habit manifested by dominance or refusal to work with whatever challenge you are asking. Striking is serious, and should be dealt with immediately, most specifically when said horse is striking at you. Remember, striking is characterized by a high "punching" arc of the leg, usually a quick reaction of a horse executed with little "processing" time. It's a reactive habit for them, and is not normally associated with a 'focused' horse. Striking can be from the ground, where the horse has three other feet on the floor, or more commonly for dominate horses and stallions, in the air, when a horse rears and "Punches" at you with it's two front legs. If you have experienced either one of these reactions then my suggestion would be to immediately get to your safe area (at the horse's left shoulder) and reprimand it for it's bad behavior. Do NOT pick at the horse, go after it with a slap of the crop, or kick under their carriage. Your horse must know that this behavior will NEVER be tolerated, and the quickest way to drill that into their mind is by immediately disciplining them during that 1-2 seconds after the behavior has occurred (or better yet catching them when they begin the behavior or durring). Remember, striking of any degree, is disrespect. And if you do not discipline your horse properly, then the horse will believe it's allowed to repeat the behavior later. 

Bad behavior is not a game, so don't play with them. Swiftly reprimand, than continue what your were asking, or where you were leading, or whatever challenge or trigger the horse thought was worthy of a "Striking" reaction. 

Finally as a last bit of advice, do not confuse a rearing horse from a striking horse. The two are very different. A rearing horse might be startled into that reaction from fear, but striking is an aggressive behavior, and rarely if ever associated with fear. (occasionally for example if an animal jumps infront of your horse on a trail, that horse may rear and strike to fend off the animal. This is one of the exceptions) As a trainer you may be more inclined to approach the rearing horse with a greater mirth if you believe you can work through their fear, however the striking horse should always be immediately disciplined. 

That's my two cents at least. Hope it helps, and i wasn't trying to sound mean so I hope it didn't seem like that. I'm a firm horse trainer/handler and I always default on the psychology and nature of the animal. However all horses are individuals and the best way to diagnose your own horse's reactions, is by reading into its body language. By looking at it's eye might give you great insight into what's going on inside its head. Is it fear, or is it dominance?


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Northern said:


> First, we have a baby horse being taught by its mother, as contrasted to a human who doesn't _have_ the savvy nor the physical clout (_unlike_ the mare), wondering how to teach a large horse with powerful hooves.


But the human giving him a cookie is more savvy:shock:

Sorry your advice is downright dangerous and foolish given the audience here, maybe in context and with some on the spot guidance it _may_ work, but given as a way to resolve an issue with a huge draft horse it is downright reckless:twisted:


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Love him or hate him, I am not sure that PP would appreciate you linking him with such a backward strategy Northern. No one in their right mind is ever going to reward a horse for coming in for a bite. If you're the kind that would, well I stand by my previous statement. So many injuries in the horse world occur because people think of the horse as their friend. They want the horse to _like_ them. I am not saying that they should be our slaves, but there has to be a definite line. You are the leader, they are the follower. It is how a horse is naturally programmed.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

I will never forget the hunt staff member who was tacking up prior to a days hunt. When pulling the girth tight, her horse swung around to bite. The horse ripped her ear totally off. She, and her ear, were rushed to the ER where the ear was reattached. 

Northern, should she have given her horse a treat before, or after, being rushed to the emergency room?


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## SunnyBlack (May 5, 2012)

Chiilaa said:


> Love him or hate him, I am not sure that PP would appreciate you linking him with such a backward strategy Northern. No one in their right mind is ever going to reward a horse for coming in for a bite. If you're the kind that would, well I stand by my previous statement. So many injuries in the horse world occur because people think of the horse as their friend. They want the horse to _like_ them. I am not saying that they should be our slaves, but there has to be a definite line. You are the leader, they are the follower. It is how a horse is naturally programmed.


I agree, its a hard habit to break. Epecially if you as a handler, have been brought up with fun and joyful memories of sweet "Good ol' horses" that you can romp around and do anything to without batting an eye in worry. However as obscure as it may sound, this is not the reality of the horse-human relationship. It's not like in the movies, the "Black Beauty" or "Mr. Ed" (although he could talk lol) relationship is the exception, and not the rule. A first lesson I tell any of my young students during "Introductory horsemanship" lessons, is that these are big animals we're dealing with, and they can be dangerous. Even when not necessarily trying to be agressive. (For example have a Belgian draft step and lean on your foot. Ouch!) Therefore we have to give them a wide mirth, and share the same respect we expect in return. It truly is a partnership, but not in the since TV or Film has advertised. I own a stallion, and that takes a certain type of handler that can be firm in their expectation of the animals behavior, with enough confidence and assertiveness to reprimand the horse for bad behavior, as well as refocus the animal for mental success. Horse management is never easy, and only with working with several different horses can you slowly learn to read the common body language, as well as develop your own "Toolbox" of tricks and techniques in helping horses of different backgrounds, developments, and attitudes, into a positive and healthy mindset.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Allison Finch said:


> I will never forget the hunt staff member who was tacking up prior to a days hunt. When pulling the girth tight, her horse swung around to bite. The horse ripped her ear totally off. She, and her ear, were rushed to the ER where the ear was reattached.
> 
> Northern, should she have given her horse a treat before, or after, being rushed to the emergency room?


There was a similar event here a few years ago Allison, a well known showjumper was girthing up, talking to somebody behind him. Horse swung around to bite, and took off his whole bottom lip. He spent months getting cosmetic surgery to try and get the lip to stretch out and return to a semi-normal state. 
I guess that tasty lip was the horse's treat?


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

Gremmy said:


> Yes. They can.


I agree. Funny thing is they can turn and do it too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dressage10135 (Feb 11, 2009)

Northern, are you insane? Do you honestly believe that rewarding a horse in mid-strike/bite is going to STOP them? That is the most ***-backwards way of thinking I think I've ever heard in training. 

OP, I agree with the others about needing to stop this behavior asap. Reprimand your horse quick and efficiently and you should see results. But please, do NOT reward him.


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## HowClever (Feb 16, 2010)

What has me completely and utterly bamboozled about Northern's thinking (not a new or unusual thing), is the fact that the entire concept of clicker training or food rewards seems to be completely missed.

The idea (simplified) is handler says "hey, pony, do this!" Pony does it. Handler offers reward. Wash, rinse, repeat until pony goes "so if I do this, I get a tasty snack! SWEET" *offers behaviour*

So let's immerse ourselves in that scenario for a second. I'm going to teach Ol' Fatso out the back to flex his neck. So I ask for a flex using the halter, he flexes, I treat and release. We do this a few times. Then miraculously Ol' Fatso flexes without the cue from the halter! I give him his treat and a big scratch and dissolve in to tears because my pony is just so clever and speshul.

Now, lets rearrange the situation a little. 

I'm bringing Ol' Fatso up from the paddock. Maybe I'm going for a ride, maybe I just want to cuddle with him. Either way, he strikes out at me as we toddle along. I immediately offer him a treat. Ol' Fatso gobbles his delicious reward and gets a glint in his eye. We continue our walk. He lifts his leg to strike again. Treat. That glint in his eye shines a little brighter. Strike. Treat. Strike. Treat. Strike. "Oh, shoot buddy you're gonna have to wait for your treat this time sugar plum, you've gone and broken my leg"

Basically, what I am getting at here is that the ENTIRE premise of clicker training and food rewards is to REWARD the behaviour that you want the horse to REPEAT. Not reward the behaviour you never want to see again.


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## BlueIce (Feb 19, 2012)

I thought it was common sense that you don't use positive reinforcement to reward bad behavior?

Like others have said, you need to react like a higher ranking horse would. It is a horse & will react like a horse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

I think Northern's idea is to give the treat BEFORE the horse does the negative action, to interrupt the behavior. The problem is that you always need to have treats on hand and know what the horse is going to do before the horse does. Which in my opinion is not easy to do at all times. I also don't agree with it. I also don't agree with always smacking a horse as a reprimand. Just my thoughts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SunnyBlack (May 5, 2012)

Treat training... This is a topic that truly needs its own thread. Honestly I think the origin of treat training is that a few people had some good ol' horses that could preform tricks with a few edible incentives. But In my opinion its a slippery slope and your opening yourself up to more problems than solutions. treat training goes against everything natural in the horses phycological world. And because a few big names in training found clever ways to make their horse "roll over" for them, they've now bred a whole generation of people thinking treat training is the new way to work "with" your horse, when in reality you are working "against" your horse. Or at the very least against its basic nature. 

I like to think of treat training in terms of a Human and a Lion, rather than a Human and a Horse. The Lion is a dangerous animal, and so is a Horse. The Lion can be calm and laid back, and so can a Horse. The Lion can attend to its basic nature of gathering food and satisfying itself, and so can a Horse. However the primordial balance changes when you incorporate the concept of "treats." You give a treat to a horse to get him to step up to you, the horse steps up. You give a treat to a lion to get him to step up to you, and the lion will jump you and rip out your throat. It's the same concept, these are animals and they have an instinctual nature that can not be undone. We can create a "Trainable" mind to progress the animal into the domesticated lifestyle we require, but their bare physiological nature does not change. 

And no point in the development or evolution of horses, did one horse give another horse a treat for good behavior. 

Honestly treats should be few and far between and never associated with a behavior. When I give a horse a treat, its usually a carrot or an apple and I throw it in their bucket. Something that is associated with food. So your throwing food into something positive associated with food. Now you are working with your horse into a successful outcome.


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

Northern, I honestly don't know how you've survived and haven't been seriously injured or on the brink of death from a horse related accident. Your "techniques" are a complete textbook titles "How to lead to disaster"... Please, I'm not even to the point of trying to reason with you anymore.. I am just astounded at the things you say now and would highly doubt your level of common sense if I knew you in person..It's already rather questionable on the internet..Good luck with your horses and I truly hope you're never hurt by your "techniques", but realize that the advice you gave the OP is very, very wrong..


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## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

OP this is my 2 cents, take them for what they are worth...

If that horse strikes at you again, reprimand, punish, discipline or whatever you want to call it. Use force if needed. You don't have to pound him in the ground, but if a swift yank on the lead doesn't do it you better be prepared for the progression of force! He will be.

It is aggression. Stop him, and put him in his place quickly, firmly, and with no doubt that the striking will stop NOW. Be firm with him, not abusive or worse, angry. Keep your emotions in check and be ready for him to challenge you. I can see it happening since striking is a pretty serious show of aggression.


I had more typed out, but I think it has already been said.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

Horse is giving signs it is contemplating doing this. You are missing them.

Horse also may have little respect for you.

I didn't see where you are at or what you are doing when this has happened, but you need to learn to read your horse better, all horses for that matter, so that these things are stopped before they begin.

And your body positioning as well, may need to be changed.



As to the rewarding biting with treats? That is the most asinine thing I've ever heard of.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

A big thanks to userandpets! 

I said repeatedly, plus giving the example of the kid & lollipop, that the horses haven't seen the treat as a _reward _for going to bite, & people just keep saying the horse WILL see it as a reward for going to bite! 

As well as your forgetting that I said repeatedly that sometimes a swift thwack is appropriate, with a horse who isn't looking for further argument or who won't get very upset. Y'all act as though I said offer treats ONLY!

I refuse to believe that OP doesn't understand my very clear posts, & that's all that matters to me at this point.

And y'all are so unkind: asking me if I'm insane, wondering how I've survived with horses, implying that I didn't even learn this from PNH, etc. 

You wonder how I've survived with horses & I wonder how you treat yours. My inner horse wants to run as far away from y'all as possible.

over & out


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## Snizard93 (Oct 12, 2011)

I am by no means an expert about behaviour, I am still learning myself. But there is one thing I do know, you do not offer a treat to interrupt a bad behaviour. I have tried to understand this but it's just, forgive me, ridiculous! 

Horses don't make friends, I think they create bonds to a certain extent, but the main thing is to remember that in a herd environment there is a hierarchy, and any horse trying to step out of line, or trying to challenge the lead horse would be quickly put back in its place! 

OP, please don't give your horse a treat every time he goes to strike, ir does strike. When he does it you need to let him know that it's not acceptable. Like people say on here all the time, you need to act like the lead mare, you need to make him think that for a few seconds, he is going to die :wink:

Like I said, I'm no expert, but I do strongly believe on correcting bad behaviour and reminding the horse that YOU are the lead horse. I do not believe in rewarding a horse to interrupt the bad behaviour. 

Horse goes to strike, horse gets a treat. After a short while horse associates striking with getting treats. How the hell does this stop the unwanted behaviour?

Horse goes to strike, human reacts like lead mare. After a short while (maybe even once) horse realises that the hierachy is not to be challenged. Disrespectful behaviour stops. 

I will repeat again that I am NOT an expert and if anything I have said is wrong then I will happily stand corrected. But OP, please don't reward your horse when he strikes at you.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Northern said:


> I said repeatedly, plus giving the example of the kid & lollipop, that the horses haven't seen the treat as a _reward _for going to bite, & people just keep saying the horse WILL see it as a reward for going to bite!


You're attributing human intelligence to the horse. They turn to bite and get interrupted by a treat. They don't think "bite bite bite bite oh look a treat I guess I won't bite after all". The closest we can come to interpreting a horse's thinking in this case would be "I am going to bite this human who is doing up my girth so they know I am the boss and they stop it. Oh look, a treat, she must know I am the boss, so if I order her around some more, she will continue to be subservient to me".

Remember, part of being lead mare is getting the best food. By giving them a treat when they demonstrate such behaviour, you are telling them they are the leader, not you. 

If you want to continue to let your horse be the boss of you, that's your neck. Giving people on the internet advice to do the same is irresponsible, and just like other stupid ideas, should be shot down in public forums. Name calling is not appropriate, but neither is sitting back and letting you lead others down the garden path to putting themselves in danger.


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

I also find it amusing, Northern, that I have a PNH video sitting on my shelf right now in which Pat clearly says to let the horse "run into your elbow" to keep him out of your space which, in translation, means to *STOP* the unwanted behavior swiftly, _not treat it_. At no point does he say "give him a treat, it will change his mind". And even if you do give treats to stop striking, guess what you will have created in return? A biter. Not a big step up in my book. It's a simple concept. Correct unwanted behavior, treat desired behavior. You seem to have missed the memo...


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Northern do you even have a horse? I don't know why you haven't been stomped into oblivion yet, if you actually interact on a daily basis with them.

You're so far off base when it comes to how horses think and react, that I find it hard to believe you've ever been a horse owner or even a lesson student.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

OK, we have discussed the treat thing enough, I think. We have looked at it from both sides and discussed it to DEATH. Op, you have been given several ways to go about stopping this behavior. The ball is in your court.

I am not closing this thread.....yet. But, I think the treat issue is done to death. Let's either move on to other ideas or stop posting here. No more personal commentaries will be welcomed.


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