# poor quality dressage. critique anyway?



## lostastirrup (Jan 6, 2015)

Sorry about the low quality video. working on getting a better filming option. this was taken about 2ish weeks ago at the end of the ride. Recently we had the chiropractor out and owing to poor saddle fit (shame on me) we're presently relegated to bareback. (and shocker of shocker hes going a million times better, now if only my thighs and abs can take schooling the extensions and simple changes we'll be good to go) 

please critique (as much as youre able) 

seat and position
movement and quality
alignment (i know its hard to see)

would love tips on: increasing throughness, clarity and responsiveness to a half halt, convincing him that my leg does not mean this is the kentucky derby. 





btw- is anybody interested in buying a MW courbette bernina jr. Its breaking my heart but it must go.


----------



## Fimargue (Jun 19, 2015)

He is a very nice horse and I think you have a good thing going on. He has a nice trot and canter, but I would like the walk bigger and for that you would need to have your elbows more flexible, see here 




What is your half halt exactly? 

With forward horses you have to do more slow work, lots of halt-walk-trot transitions + rein back to make them really sit back, anticipate the downward transitions and learn that they can't just run.


----------



## lostastirrup (Jan 6, 2015)

Our half halt is a little leg on the barrel to get him to pick his back up, then rolling my abs back and lifting my hips to make space for his forehand to elevate, and if needed a little softening with the reins to get him to round. 

hes pretty strung out on the turn on the haunches, the chiro says he was protecting himself quite a lot by hollowing his back, and halt and slow work is always the worst for him at that. he was really good on thursday, so im hoping thats all it took was a little massage and adjustment and condemning me to sell my favorite saddle of all time. 

I watched your video, I dont think i need to throw away my elbows as much as the rider is in the video, i think that makes it harder to follow the mouth and not easier. Ill work on following him at walk more though.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

It's really almost impossible to make any kind of accurate assessment from those videos. 

I "think" I might b seeing a tall rider on a smallish horse, whose way of moving is a bit like a pronking gazelle , and the rider is leaning forward too much, though it's perfectly understandable, considering the movement.


----------



## Fimargue (Jun 19, 2015)

Ok. To me half halt is bringing the horse back with my seat and light squeeze with my fingers up to the point that the horse could have easily stopped, but didn't. Everyone has their own. But basically if the horse does not bring himself back from the half halts, I would do more halts. 

About the elbows - you add the amount you're comfortable with. Here is a good video of Jane Savoie for the walk 




I did not link the previous video for the turn on the haunches, just for the elbow movement, but should have actually linked the Jane Savoie video straight for the information in it.

My Arab mare was struggling with the slow work at first as well because it is just much more effort-free to just speed forward.


----------



## lostastirrup (Jan 6, 2015)

Hes 14hh and im 5'2" I dont think Im too tall at all for him, and he takes up my leg really well owing to having the worlds largest barrel on a 14hh pony. let me see if i have a good picture. Im going to try and get a video this week of us. hopefully beter quality.

heres a picture of us in jumping tack.


----------



## Fimargue (Jun 19, 2015)

You look great. I wouldn't have guessed he is only 14hh. 

And yes, Arabs have lovely wide barrels.


----------



## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

I can't critique because as you've noticed the saddle does not fit and I believe everything will be different, including his movement if you can get a saddle that fits. He can't move right and you can't balance right when the saddle is over his shoulder, and the girth interfering with his elbow is hindering his movement too. 

Once you have a saddle that is wide enough to sit over his barrel and has forward billets so you can girth him up and allow him free shoulder and leg movement, you can work more on your balance too. Many horses will be more rushing if the saddle is over the shoulder (some horses buck too), so all of that may be better once you get a good saddle.


----------



## lostastirrup (Jan 6, 2015)

gottatrot- it might be awhile. Im a college kid and i cant afford a new one probably til summer. til then we're bareback
.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

well, one can hardly make any kind of accurate assessment from those videos. I look forward to your posting clearer ones. He sure is a cutester!


----------



## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Can't see anything from the flat video. 

Jumping... 

He's scared of those fences. Not unusual for a green jumper, but your not helping his confidence. You need to help him with his distance(first video, you took out an entire stride). Either use poles or ride him closer to the base, but! You have to be prepared for him to jump big iver it. He's tossing you in both videos so you need to work to stay with him more. 

I do like that you are trying hard no to catch his mouth. Good. But I'd rather you grab mane. Keeps you with the motion better and prevents you sitting back too soon or otherwise jamming him by accident. 

You could serve to shorten for stiruup a hole or two as well.


----------



## lostastirrup (Jan 6, 2015)

Thanks all. . Will try and get a better video this week. 

Yeah jumping is not our cup of tea, whether ridden Deep to the fences or not he launches like a lippizanner.


----------



## DanteDressageNerd (Mar 12, 2015)

From the flat video it seems he sucks up into the bridle vs reaching forward to meet the contact (arabs are the most difficult IMO to teach contact to). I'd like to see him longer in the neck and reaching down and through to the bit. He tends to go out through the outside shoulder and over flexes to the inside both directions. His rhythm in canter is not a true 3 beat either, he gets a bit of a bunny hop canter (watch sequence of footfalls, the diagnol pair and front inside leg). He doesn't stay consistent in his rhythm. Walk also has a tendency to go a smidge lateral. Rhythm count is 1-2, 3-4 at the walk with each sway of the rib cage. I'd actually slow the walk down and focus on a true 4 beat, a lot of horses if they're tight in the back will walk out of rhythm into a lateral walk without a focus on the footfalls. Sometimes slower and less forward will run them out of rhythm. It's also in your seat, to sit deeper it doesn't mean sit heavier it and do not grind or drive in the walk but keep that 1-2, 3-4 in your brain with each sway of the rib cage rocking the barrel between your legs and hips but not in a shoving action, more like a following and gentle encouragement sort of a way.

Whenever you half halt to bring them back on their hind end you must soften then hand, it's like half halt in your core and hand (close fingers), leg up to send them to meet the contact, soften the hand (do not drop them but put the hands 2 inches forward, it's subtle) this is how we train them to collect and ride in self carriage. The release asks them to carry themselves instead of rely on the hand. In the canter riding off the track to give you space and counter bend is so helpful with getting the shoulder in line with the body and getting them to actually take the outside rein and connect the inside leg to outside rein without falling through the outside. Collected canter should be inside leg to outside rein without losing the activity behind. 

In the canter especially I'd try counter bending him to the outside, riding off the wall about 3ft to give you room to leg yield out and using your inside leg to bring his rib cage round your leg as he tends to go out through the outside shoulder and disconnect from your outside rein and relying on the inside. Put a loop in the inside for a moment when you feel him step into the outside rein. You can bend them in rib cage, whole body riding inside leg to outside rein and once they take the contact moving them to counter bend outside leg to inside rein and when they take using your position to move them to inside bend (it's in moving the rib cage and sending the hind leg to the opposite rein). Though sometimes you will need to use outside leg and knee to guide the shoulder (if you do this use inside rein and outside leg at the shoulder to move the shoulder in line with the rest of the body).

I can tell the saddle makes him tighter in the back and will be better to see a video without the saddle but a lot of this stuff will stay the same with or without a saddle but his ability to reach through to the bit will be better without obstruction. Saddles make a difference but I'll say when I was overseas they didn't give a darn if the saddle pinched or if the horse was a little uncomfortable, the horse was expected to perform and do just the same. The saddles weren't anventirely awful a fit but they weren't a good fit either (too narrow or some bridging), just were what they had so you worked with what you had.


----------



## lostastirrup (Jan 6, 2015)

@DanteDressageNerd

thanks. I was wondering if anyone was going to notice the gosh darn shoulder. Its our eternal struggle. If i can get him straight hes brilliant, if i cant i might as well have just stayed at home and ate bon bons for all it matters. He actually stretches to the contact pretty well and usually has a nice long warmup of long and low. Im going out today and will see if anyone can get a video of us. His walk feels a lot better since chiro, but its not his best gait- his trot is. Canter on a good day is to die for, but if hes dropping the shoulder and on the forehand its rather a sorry thing. He actually wasnt too bad that day and in the video i wasnt pushing much of anything just letting him do his gaits since we had done our workout already. 


other query- laterals are really hard for us. any tips for keeping him calm. shoulder in and leg yield are okay. but if i push for it at an engaged trot he kinda panics. any tips?


----------



## Fimargue (Jun 19, 2015)

Does he leg yield well and consistently at walk? Maybe he is not ready physically to perform it at trot.


----------



## lostastirrup (Jan 6, 2015)

Its not so much he cant do it as he gets excited. it took awhile for my leg to not mean "run immediately" so working on the laterals at trot tends to stress his "i need to go forward but wait ive been rewired for sideways.. Im confued!!!!" sinapse. this was one reason i mentioned half halts.


----------



## Fimargue (Jun 19, 2015)

Which seatbone you use for leg yield? You should try the outside one if you don't already do.

Otherwise the slow work and insisting on coming back should definitely help.


----------



## DanteDressageNerd (Mar 12, 2015)

Some horses don't really understand the lateral aid and take off as an answer because they don't understand the expectation. In this case I break the problem down. 

Honestly I train laterals in hand, it transfers to undersaddle, so I mostly just use position for leg yield. When they don't go sideways it's because they're running to escape which requires a clear aid. At the halt ask them to step side ways and make it really clear sideways when they go forward, halt and step sideways. Same with when they run, return to halt and try again (importance of transitions is training the core-seat half halt and get them to do half transitions and take weight behind). The reactions are more important than the result. When you're training, you're training a progressive series of reactions and building up concepts. It's not just completing a movement, it's teaching reactions.The aids should be clear in turn on the forehand which builds to leg yield. Woah-sideways-woah-sideways. In all the gaits that's how it is, half halt- feel the shift back (lighten of the front, lifting of the shoulder, lowering of the croup) and over (soften, I had a horse who would rear straight up if I didn't soften each lateral step) but not in a mechanical shove way. Just a this is what we're doing. Mental projections matter, horses respond to it. If you sat on my ottb, he's a very-very tricky horse (I didn't think he was until I had a very competent young rider on him) but for laterals even though he is very hot you just position and he glides. But if you try to mechanically make him step over he will lock everything against you and it won't happen. To improve the leg yield you can also go down centerline, look in the direction of travel, put your weight down the outside but center your body over the saddle and ask for the over. and half halt, soften.

Losing of the shoulder also reflects he's not truly in your outside rein. Counter bend around a corner or even on the circles think of "squaring" your edges so counter bend 4 pts of the turn and leg yield out when you return to true flexion, you can also spiral equal 12m circles from A to C equally spaced and just focus on on maintaining your rhythm and keeping your circles shape. There are also turn on the forehand squares, etc


----------



## lostastirrup (Jan 6, 2015)

*new video- is mildy more discernable*



DanteDressageNerd said:


> Losing of the shoulder also reflects he's not truly in your outside rein. Counter bend around a corner or even on the circles think of "squaring" your edges so counter bend 4 pts of the turn and leg yield out when you return to true flexion, you can also spiral equal 12m circles from A to C equally spaced and just focus on on maintaining your rhythm and keeping your circles shape. There are also turn on the forehand squares, etc


We do practice counter flexion (A LOT) in fact for about a month he dropped the shoulder so bad i just put his nose to the outside going right and we worked on square corners. 

theres some stuff with one side raised pole work I want to to to encourage him to reach under better with the inside hind, but Im waiting on a bareback pad before we do anything exciting. 



I got a video. And its the epitome of "lost outside shoulder". as in his body was here with me on the north american continent and his shoulder was taking a vacation in Indonesia. 

Someone was in the arena right when I got there, so i nabbed the chance and got my video. No warmup. But its kinda good to see what we're like before we've done anything yet- like stretching or practicing stopping (gee that would have been nice!)

I present: the little ****, instead of working on a loose rein we worked on some loose language.





PERSONAL REFLECTION:
after the gal got the video, i watched it. I stretched my legs down and tried to give myself a little less of a chair seat. I dont usually ride with much of one, but Ive found if I bend my knees a bit more he rounds better at canter so I think its just become an overdone bad habit (i do have photographic evidence somewhere that I am capable of a halfway decent Eq bareback) Then we worked on moving our rib cage back and forth and softening the jaw (no tugging this time [i cringe every time I see me do that.] and yes counter flexion and squares and spiral in (because im pretty sure that outside shoulder wandered off on an expedition without us) 

Not gonna lie. He was a **** for the video. spooked at all the things. he rubber stiff necks this "imma look at it cause i can" but he gets right back to work so I try not to hold it against him unless he uses it as an excuse. Which he occasionally likes to do. He got a lot better and lifted his back after more stretching and practicing good quiet halts from all three gaits. 

Im ashamed that going to the right I did not set him up for canter well. Often I just made him go and didnt organize his body. I shoulda slowed down. done the transition from walk and made him step up into canter. we ran into it from trot. Eternal shame. Also. that side. oh my goodness where is his shoulder!!!!! its like popped so far out. Hes so freaking hard to straighten. After some work we got one good canter circle on the right of the shoulder upright and not a cocked way out. Any tips for pushing his hip out?


alright. have at it. Im pretty much convinced its crap anyway.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

He's a cute horse, and you sit well. (I am a TERRIBLE bareback rider, so I envy you that). I think a bit of a chair seat is pretty normal for bareback. 

did he feel 'speedy"? it didn't look that way. it looks more like he's pretty rythmic and moving along without too much concern or rushing, almost lollygagging.


----------



## lostastirrup (Jan 6, 2015)

He had a couple "imma spook and run" moments at canter


----------



## DanteDressageNerd (Mar 12, 2015)

For counter bend, it's not counter flexion. When I ask for counter bend, I'm bending the whole horses body around to the outside as though they were traveling in. Bending through the entire rib cage reaching from the outside hind to the inside fore. It's about moving the shoulders and gaining control of their shoulders. You can also do several small shallow loops (like steer in 2-3 ft, steer out to the track and steer in 2-3ft and back to the track) to help break up his shoulders, so he'll release his neck to you and reach down into the contact. Leg yielding into towards the center of the arena.

The problem I'm seeing is the horse hasn't really accepted the inside or the outside rein and he's not really meeting the contact (he's not over his topline reaching to the bit, you want weight in your rein) you do not want him to be too light. This is very common with arabs. On all the arabs and arab crosses I've ridden/trained I've had to bridge my reins at some point because they're so tricky in the contact and focus on the laterals to move them through before I could half halt. All about laterals and movement of the shoulders and haunches.

He's over flexing to the inside, when you flex him out you're literally wanting to change the position of his shoulders. In the canter, it's moving his rib cage around your outside leg and asking his inside leg to jump into your outside rein to give you control of his outside shoulder, you may need to bump him with your outside leg towards the shoulder asking him to move his shoulder over and inside hind leg so he learn how to connect the inside hind to the outside rein. The mini shallow loops in canter will really help with this. 

There is a lot to like here, he's much lighter and floatier in the trot. At the canter he's at a 3 beat and has more jump behind. I think it's easy to be too hard on yourself, instead of looking at it as a process and figuring out new pieces. He's peppy, cute and free in his gait. But there are always ways to make it better and improve. I'm ALWAYS ALWAYS learning something new to improve myself and the way the horses I ride go, always expending my mind on what to pay attention to. I have a PRE I have to really move his shoulders and haunches around before he'll let me ride him, so I'll counter bend in his whole body both directions then return to true bend and constantly return to shoulder and haunches control. With the leg yields always expecting him to release his body to me. With him I have to prioritize trust and obedience when I have that he tries very hard but he rides like a pony. Or my mare going left needs me to keep moving her left shoulder over while I guide her right hind leg in line with her body because that's her weakness (it's usually a diagnol pair and sometimes it's the same both directions) for straightness. On my ottb who can pull like nobodies business and unseat me, I sometimes have to grab my oh sh!t strap just to keep steady when he pulls because there is no way to keep stable and consistent when he pulls. He pulls to avoid releasing control. He'll try running, pulling, etc to avoid the rein while he's figuring out how each rein works, normal green horse stuff. So I ride him going left on circles and going right much straighter to help him as he wants to over bend to the right and not bend at all left. Lots of little quirks with every horse and it's figuring out their crookednesses as well as your own that are influencing it. 

I do a lot of in hand with the laterals to educate the horse how to respond to rein aids, as well as move their body in conjunction to those aids. It also shows me when the horse is confused or what they're not understanding about contact or in their body. I move their shoulders and haunches, teach a better half halt and transfer weight to the hind end and also start piaffe that way.


----------

