# Working on a new breed...



## BlazingFameStables (Oct 23, 2012)

Basically, I'm looking for the following traits:

Endurance/stamina
Speed
jump ability
beauty
good size but not huge, just big enough to get over higher obstacles but small enough a short person (4'9-5'6) can get on without much difficulty.

If there isn't already a breed like this available, I'll just go ahead and post what I think would work best

Thoroughbred: excellent speed, decent stamina/endurance fairly beautiful, good jump ability, too tall
Dutch warmblood: good speed, ok endurancew/stamina, very beautiful, too large
Welsh pony: OK stamina, ok speed, Good jump skills, ok beauty, just tall enough, but not quite the right width
Arabian: Excellent speed, excellent endurance/stamina, not the best jump skills, very beautiful, about the right height and width
Backcross thoroughbred and Arabian, another warmblood, and add some morgan. for a bit of strength and a little smaller height


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

What exactly are your plans here? Breeding to create your own "breed"?


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## BlazingFameStables (Oct 23, 2012)

Yeah, I'm guessing I'm trying to get attention by saying pure blooded horses, dogs, whatever, aren't the only champions, but if the horse becomes a breed down the road, I'll be ok with it.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

BlazingFameStables said:


> Yeah, I'm guessing I'm trying to get attention by saying pure blooded horses, dogs, whatever, aren't the only champions, but if the horse becomes a breed down the road, I'll be ok with it.


 
Ever heard of a horse named Russian Roulette? http://www.usef.org/_staffIframes/pressbox/images/magazine/pdf/aca5c7fbe08e3c0be602edbd8ca103a2.pdf

3rd page down, upper left hand corner. Sasha is a purebred Arabian who blew away the open jumping circuit. He's not huge either, maybe 14.2.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

In order for something to be a registered breed, the foundation animals have to breed true. You can't just put a mish-mash of horses together and call it a breed.

There has to be a breed _standard,_ and all the animals produced have to be recognizable by those standards physically.

Breeding has to be done carefully and with well thought out plans, not just breeding a bunch of disparate horses and hoping for the best.

There are plenty of_ recognized_ breeds already out there who can jump, have speed, and have good endurance.


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## BlazingFameStables (Oct 23, 2012)

I don't necessarily care if it becomes a breed or not, I'm just planning to prove some mixed breeds (horses, dogs, whatever else you can think of) are better both health and talent wise than other breeds. I'm saying though, IF it becomes a breed down the road, then I'm fine with that. I'm not doing this for fame or attention to myself, I'm trying to draw attention towards the possibility of mixed breeds being prospective champions, possibly better than pure breds in several ways.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

There are _plenty_ of crossbreds already who have proven their worth. You're not blazing a new trail, you're merely treading an already well worn path.

Grade horses and crossbreds can and do compete successfully, but there's nothing that makes them better or more worthy than purebreds, especially a horse that was bred for a specific purpose.

You seem to have breed bias, for some reason. Why do you think grades and crossbreds are better than purebreds? Especially purebreds that are purpose bred?

Besides, breeding a bunch of TB/WB/Arabian/Welsh grades doesn't necessarily mean those horses will get the best of all the breeds. They could very well get the WORST, as well as any genetic problems endemic to each particular breed.

You haven't really thought this through, have you?


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

You're a little late in trying to prove grade horses can be champions.. Yes, a very rare few grade horses have been champions. Those horses are far and few between, grade horses can be champions on a local level many times, but there aren't many "big" grade horse champions. It's a fact of people wanting registered horses over a grade horse. Just because it's a grade doesn't mean it's going to have better health..If you breed two different registered horses together and it can't be registered it's still a grade, that doesn't mean it's magically going to have better health or have a better chance at being a winner.. You have a very slight chance of getting lucky with breeding for what you're looking for or it could be a complete disaster.


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## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

You can't just lump together all the individual horses with breed stereotypes. Sure there's what people typically think of certain breeds. Apparently all Thoroughbreds are huge, crazy, hot spazzes. Mine didn't get the memo. He's barely over 15HH and cool as a cucumber, and he's still a youngin'. While I love mutts and rescues, I find it annoying that people advocate _only_ getting them over purebred animals because the mutts are "better" in some way. Honestly, they're not. They're _all the darn same_ in the fact that every horse, despite the breed or mix thereof, is an individual.

I like what someone from a recent dog program at the farm says. *"Purebreds are nothing more than codified mutts."*


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Honestly people, I think we're dealing with a youngster here who has stars in her eyes and an unrealistic view of breeding the next Grand Champion, as well as seeing herself as the plucky, underdog heroine in her own life story.


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## BlazingFameStables (Oct 23, 2012)

Ever hear of a little thing called 'Hybrid Vigor'? You take two breeds and breed them, the resulting offspring may look different or the same as the parents, HOWEVER, the hybrid vigor would minimize the negative traits and boost the positive. Eliminating (almost) diseases from both parents, and causing the offspring to have an enormous amount of potential. (Taken from a dog designer breeder site)


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

BlazingFameStables said:


> Ever hear of a little thing called 'Hybrid Vigor'? You take two breeds and breed them, the resulting offspring may look different or the same as the parents, HOWEVER, the hybrid vigor would minimize the negative traits and boost the positive. Eliminating (almost) diseases from both parents, and causing the offspring to have an enormous amount of potential. (Taken from a dog designer breeder site)


You and that 'designer dog breeder' know absolutely NOTHING about genetics, either. :?

What are they breeding? Puggles? Labradoodles? Shizpoos? Yeah, those dogs hardly have what I'd call 'hybrid vigor'. Most of them just have double their parents' genetic issues.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Well actually I need to be fair, I have nothing against mutts as such, looks out of window, counts up, yup currently 5 nags outside, 1 pure bred, 4 mutts.

Mutts can be champions, but when it comes to champions, if I wanted to become world champ at barrels I'd buy a QH, Endurance an Arab, racing a TB, dressage, Warmblood, for most disciplines that you may want to be champ at, there is a breed designed for that end.

BUT

There are some where you can take a pinch of this, and a touch of that, and produce something good, but it's a gamble, and you have to have an amount of knowledge to do that, a big amount of knowledge, and a lot of luck.


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## BlazingFameStables (Oct 23, 2012)

Actually, she breeds Border Shepherds. German Shepherd border collie mixes. She uses these dogs to create a great herder, and a good livestock guard dog. Both these qualities combined make an excellent farm dog.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

BlazingFameStables said:


> Actually, she breeds Border Shepherds. German Shepherd border collie mixes. She uses these dogs to create a great herder, and a good livestock guard dog. Both these qualities combined make an excellent farm dog.


Really? Friend of yours, is she? 

Each of those breeds themselves can do both, so I don't see why creating a designer mutt was necessary.

You're so woefully ignorant of breeding and the pitfalls, it would be laughable if it weren't so sad for the animals you might wind up creating.

GH, I have nothing against mutts either, but I say if you want a mutt go the animal shelter; don't breed your own. So many of these 'designer' animals wind up there anyway, so if you're determined to get a Sheltipoo or some other mish-mash you can find one without having to pay some exorbitant price. Same goes for horses. Plenty of 'hybrid vigor' grades in rescues and at auction. No reason at all to breed any more of them.


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

Speed Racer said:


> Really? Friend of yours, is she?
> 
> Each of those breeds themselves can do both, so I don't see why creating a designer mutt was necessary.
> 
> ...


The bolded deserved repeating.........


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## BlazingFameStables (Oct 23, 2012)

Y.Y you'll see one day... everybody laughed and criticized the Wright brothers too... and look who came up with the first flying machine. Now, I think I've said my piece and defended it well. If anyone else wants to say something to bring me down, forget it, you're not changing this stubborn mule's mind.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Head stuck in the sand much?


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

BlazingFameStables said:


> Y.Y you'll see one day... *everybody laughed and criticized the Wright brothers too*... and look who came up with the first flying machine. Now, I think I've said my piece and defended it well. If anyone else wants to say something to bring me down, forget it, you're not changing this stubborn mule's mind.


COMPLETELY different situation.. They were looking at worst killing themselves.. Breeding animals creates a LIFE, not an object to be cast aside if it goes wrong.. Perfect word for this: Irresponsible.

This also came from a "Designer Dog" website.


Breeding hybrids "Another defining characteristic of designer dogs is that they are usually bred as companions and pets." ....Not champions. 

" But crossbreeding for a particular style of designer dog may not work out as intended; instead of the desirable traits, the resulting litter may have a combination of the undesirable traits of the two purebred breeds"

"In addition, the goals of dog crossbreeding may be harder to define than the goals of livestock crossbreeding; good temperament may be harder to define"


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Also, that is a completely juvenile way of behaving. Even my young kids have a more open mind than to stick their fingers in their and go "Nener, nener, nener! I can't hear you!"


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

BlazingFameStables said:


> Y.Y you'll see one day... everybody laughed and criticized the Wright brothers too... and look who came up with the first flying machine. Now, I think I've said my piece and defended it well. If anyone else wants to say something to bring me down, forget it, you're not changing this stubborn mule's mind.


You're comparing yourself to the WRIGHT BROTHERS?! :rofl::rofl::rofl:

My goodness, delusions of grandeur much?

You haven't defended _anything_ well. You know less than nothing about breeding quality animals, and your 'wonderful' mutts will end up at auction with all the other grades bred by people just like you, who don't have a clue but _do_ have egos the size of Chicago.


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

NdAppy said:


> Head stuck in the sand much?


Well, I was thinking their head was stuck, but have to admit sand isn't the place I had in my mind...........


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

themacpack said:


> Well, I was thinking their head was stuck, but have to admit sand isn't the place I had in my mind...........


Which makes sense, if you think about it, as that seems to be the same orifice they are talking out of.....


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Mine either Mac, but that was the most appropriate place to mention on the forum. :rofl:


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Speed Racer said:


> GH, I have nothing against mutts either, but I say if you want a mutt go the animal shelter; don't breed your own. So many of these 'designer' animals wind up there anyway, so if you're determined to get a Sheltipoo or some other mish-mash you can find one without having to pay some exorbitant price. Same goes for horses. Plenty of 'hybrid vigor' grades in rescues and at auction. No reason at all to breed any more of them.



Agree to a point, one example, I love Haflingers, and to me they should be short square little ponies/horses, and I am really sad to see them creeping up above 15hh, it is just wrong. In a way I would rather see someone having a program to breed Haflinger x TB for instance, to fulfill that market.

I am happy enough with a first cross, bred for a purpose, but you can't keep adding a touch of this, and a pinch of that hoping for the best. 

Blazing, you have not made your point or defended it well, I don't see what you are going to bring to the horse world with your aim, you say you want:

Endurance/stamina
Speed
jump ability
beauty
good size but not huge, just big enough to get over higher obstacles but small enough a short person (4'9-5'6) can get on without much difficulty.


A chunky type Arab will do all that, or a QH, Welsh section D, Andalusian, and loads of others that I haven't thought of yet, no need to design something to do it all, they already exist.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

GH, I've been upset about where they're taking the Arabian breed, as well. If you want a horse that looks like a Saddlebred, then buy a danged Saddlebred! Don't try to 'improve' a breed out of its original breed characteristics and standards. :-x


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## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

Speed Racer said:


> You're comparing yourself to the WRIGHT BROTHERS?! :rofl::rofl::rofl:
> 
> My goodness, delusions of grandeur much?
> 
> You haven't defended _anything_ well. You know less than nothing about breeding quality animals, and your 'wonderful' mutts will end up at auction with all the other grades bred by people just like you, who don't have a clue but _do_ have egos the size of Chicago.


So true, Speed. Not to mention those horses that go to auction are less than likely to find a loving home if there actually _is_ something wrong with them to make them end up in that situation.

And I'd actually say this person's self-importance is more the size of Australia...


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## BlazingFameStables (Oct 23, 2012)

I'm not being irresponsible, and I am not being childish. I have studied a bit about genetics so that I can roughly estimate what will come out. And in my mind's eye, I estimate it will be a champion. So, thanks for your opinions, but I would like encouragement or even suggestions now, not criticism.


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

Suggestion: breed for designer dogs, not horses. 

You don't have near enough experience to start breeding horses. It's not just something you decide to do on a whim. It takes years of learning about breeding, personal experiences with breeders, and more knowledge on the subject than you seem to posses.

On another point, with how the industry is looking now, no one should be breeding horses, much less breeding grades. There are MORE than enough horses/prospects/foals out there now..Many unwanted horses that could use good homes.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

BlazingFameStables said:


> I'm not being irresponsible, and I am not being childish. I have studied a bit about genetics so that I can roughly estimate what will come out. And in my mind's eye, I estimate it will be a champion. So, thanks for your opinions, but I would like encouragement or even suggestions now, not criticism.


Your mind's eye is lying to you. You see what you want to see, and are disregarding anyone or anything that says otherwise. :?

You most certainly _are_ being irresponsible and childish, and I could never condone, encourage, or even suggest anything other than studying more than 'a bit' about genetics before you decide to bring another life into the world.

C'mon, how old are you anyway? 15? 16? You're obviously not a preteen, but you can't be any older than 18-20 with that attitude.

Even your user name is ego-driven. BlazingFAMEStables. Oh my no, you're not thinking about your own fame and glory _at all_, are you? Only concerned with the quality of the lives you're planning on bringing into the world. :-x


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

BlazingFameStables, please search out all the threads on breeding and grades and sport horses here. You are new and WELCOME!! We all aren't as harsh, especially when you are new and don't know everyone and they don't know you.

Lots of debates and opinions have been discussed over the same topics you are bringing up. It gets pretty heated because of the dire horse market and there are loads of people on here with incredible knowledge on these topics. What you are considering would take 100 years and millions of dollars to produce an actual breed.

Please don't take the snappy attitudes as being argumentative or nasty, just frustrated. 

Welcome to the Forum!


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## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

DrumRunner said:


> Suggestion: breed for designer dogs,.


Please please don't. There are enough bybs and puppymills out there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

I'd rather the OP breed dogs than horses..


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

I just have to say, you aren't doing yourself any favors comparing your horse breeding goals to the designer dog craze. Anybody with any common sense knows those breeders that mix up mutts and slap a fancy label on them are interested in one thing and one thing only...dollar signs. 90% of these so-called "designer dogs" would have been sitting in a box at the flea market with a big FREE PUPPY sign on it not so very many years ago, until somebody figured out that a new fancy name was enough to con ignorant people out of stupid amounts of money. Breeding horses, and doing it properly, should not even be in the same category as that mess.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

DrumRunner said:


> I'd rather the OP breed dogs than horses..


I'd rather the OP breed nothing at all, but I say start with something small. Like maybe seamonkeys.


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## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

Speed Racer said:


> I'd rather the OP breed nothing at all, but I say start with something small. Like maybe seamonkeys.


Even those are hard. I couldn't keep my darn brine shrimp alive to save my own life...


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

Speed Racer said:


> I'd rather the OP breed nothing at all, but I say start with something small. Like maybe seamonkeys.


I couldn't keep sea monkeys alive either.. Maybe ants?


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

DrumRunner said:


> I couldn't keep sea monkeys alive either.. Maybe ants?


Ants _are_ pretty resilient, but I'd rather not have any more of them in the world. If they show up in my house they meet Mr. Can O'Raid. :twisted:


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

lol I was the demented kid that waited on a good line to get going, spray them with hairspray, then light it on fire....They pop when they catch on fire.. Just insight if you're wondering.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Dang it, if I'd known that when I was young, I'da tried it! Now that I'm grown up and 'mature', I'm not supposed to want to do something like that. (Checks for hairspray and matches.)


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Ever heard of a horse named Russian Roulette? http://www.usef.org/_staffIframes/pressbox/images/magazine/pdf/aca5c7fbe08e3c0be602edbd8ca103a2.pdf
> 
> 3rd page down, upper left hand corner. Sasha is a purebred Arabian who blew away the open jumping circuit. He's not huge either, maybe 14.2.











Just to prove your point, Pat;-)
Gharib, straight Egyptian Arabian stallion. And not only him, several of his sons and grandsons have beaten warmbloods at the stallion licensing. Stallion licensing consists if dressage, jumping, cross country, race, a character/temperament evaluation by the test-rider and a "strange" rider.

So, no need, really, to create yet another breed. 
And just to prove the point a mutt can beat purebreds....no need breeding them. There are plenty already.


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

I do it with my little cousins, both boys love it. Their mom isn't a big fan.. :wink:


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

DrumRunner said:


> lol I was the demented kid that waited on a good line to get going, spray them with hairspray, then light it on fire....They pop when they catch on fire.. Just insight if you're wondering.


I hadn't wondered, and you are disgusting, .
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.
.
.
.
.
looks at the gas torch and wonders.......


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

Oh come on.. I cannot be the only person who did that.. And you should try it, it's very satisfying. Much better than just Raid'ing them.


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## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

And I guess I'm the weirdo who, when she sees a gross spider while she's on the toilet, hair sprays or spray-deodorants it to death...


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## peppersgirl (Aug 24, 2012)

BlazingFameStables said:


> Y.Y you'll see one day... everybody laughed and criticized the Wright brothers too... and look who came up with the first flying machine. Now, I think I've said my piece and defended it well. If anyone else wants to say something to bring me down, forget it, you're not changing this stubborn mule's mind.


the wright brothers were doing something new... and it didn't involve breeding animals..when several million meet their ends annually because of people as ignorant as you. why dont you take some time to go stream "one nation under dog"...Its an interesting documentary, and please make sure you watch that 3 minute graphic clip in the second act of it (dogs being gassed)..cute wittle puppies dont even escape that end. 

I have nothing against people who responsibly breed their animals...as in they are creating something that people are going to want and are actually trying to improve the breed/species in which they are breeding. 

you just sound like a dunce and I really feel sorry for any animals you have a hand in creating.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

DrumRunner said:


> And you should try it, it's very satisfying. Much better than just Raid'ing them.


"Oh I couldn't possibly," she says looking at the can of Easy Start and the gas torch


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

Reno Bay said:


> And I guess I'm the weirdo who, when she sees a gross spider while she's on the toilet, hair sprays or spray-deodorants it to death...


No I've done that but what works really well is spray on plasters. They freeze into the most interesting shapes.


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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

Just want to add this since you are comparing yourself to the wright brothers, which could be agreed upon since they did not invent the airplane.

"Although not the first to build and fly experimental aircraft, the Wright brothers were the first to invent aircraft controls that made fixed-wing powered flight possible."

Wright brothers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

True, Poppy. I believe one of the first inventors of aircraft was Leonardo DaVinci. The Wright brothers added the motor and controls, but didn't actually invent the original aircraft. :think:

Foaming cleaner kills things, too. I've been known to Scrubbing Bubbles a wasp to death, as well as Lysol stink bugs.


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

I'm guilty of hair spraying spiders.. 

lol GH..dooo it..


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

I read the first page of this thread, and it made my day a whole lot better.

OP, not to be rude, but maybe you should join a horse breeding RPG (Howrse?) and breed different breed together because they have set skills for each breed that will be passed down to the foals by a set percentage. No guessing is really needed and you dont have to worry about much of anything, cause it's fake. Dream on....


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

QHriderKE said:


> I read the first page of this thread, and it made my day a whole lot better.
> 
> OP, not to be rude, but maybe you should join a horse breeding RPG (Howrse?) and breed different breed together because they have set skills for each breed that will be passed down to the foals by a set percentage. No guessing is really needed and you dont have to worry about much of anything, cause it's fake. Dream on....



Sorted!! Great idea that lady, how's the snow over your way?


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## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

QHriderKE said:


> I read the first page of this thread, and it made my day a whole lot better.
> 
> OP, not to be rude, but maybe you should join a horse breeding RPG (Howrse?) and breed different breed together because they have set skills for each breed that will be passed down to the foals by a set percentage. No guessing is really needed and you dont have to worry about much of anything, cause it's fake. Dream on....


I actually love those kinds of games (I don't particularly like Howrse...apparently the site owner is a real douche). Whatever you do, don't send people like this to Equiverse...we're a good community there XD


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## ladygodiva1228 (Sep 5, 2012)

The easiest thing to breed would be dust bunnys. Low maintenance, come in different sizes and colors and for the most part are pretty easy keepers.

OP you may think you are going to make this perfect breed of horse, but honestly there are so many crossbred horses already why would one bother.


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## MangoRoX87 (Oct 19, 2009)

Polish Arab. Done.

And I'm a stock horse person.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

ladygodiva1228 said:


> The easiest thing to breed would be dust bunnys. Low maintenance, come in different sizes and colors and for the most part are pretty easy keepers.



Sorry to tell you but I'm about to flood the market, I have several that look mature enough to let go, so there will be no money in them:wink:


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

BlazingFameStables said:


> I don't necessarily care if it becomes a breed or not, I'm just planning to prove some mixed breeds (horses, dogs, whatever else you can think of) are better both health and talent wise than other breeds.
> *This has several major flaws in it. First mixed breeds be it horse dog or what ever are not healthier then pure bred animals. If the pure bred animals have the problem so will the mix. It is just that simple. Problem is that now you do not now what is all in the mix so you do not know how to care for or avoid the problems.*
> 
> I'm saying though, IF it becomes a breed down the road, then I'm fine with that.
> ...


Then go out and find one of those mixed breeds and put them in the show ring and win with them. You know why you do not see a lot of true mixed breed animals winning at the highest level? B/C they can not do it. They work well at a lower level and can be fun to train ride and show but if you are looking to show at the highest level the chances of getting that out of some randum mix breed is going to be very rare and fare between. Then the chances of that animal breeding true to what it is is going to be even harder to get.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

Golden Horse said:


> Sorted!! Great idea that lady, how's the snow over your way?


My bus didn't run today, and I've shoveled the deck off twice already. Stupid winter.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

BlazingFameStables said:


> Y.Y you'll see one day... everybody laughed and criticized the Wright brothers too... and look who came up with the first flying machine. Now, I think I've said my piece and defended it well. If anyone else wants to say something to bring me down, forget it, you're not changing this stubborn mule's mind.


 
Here is the flaw is that. First the WB where creating something that did not exist. Next it was not a living breathing thing. If it did not work or crashed and burned no bid deal. Just try again. Unless you are willing to ruthlessly cull your animals you are just creating something that is not needed.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

BlazingFameStables said:


> I'm not being irresponsible, and I am not being childish. I have studied a bit about genetics so that I can roughly estimate what will come out. And in my mind's eye, I estimate it will be a champion. So, thanks for your opinions, but I would like encouragement or even suggestions now, not criticism.


You can study all you want. Books while a good place to get general info when it comes to breeding animals it takes a lot more then just reading a few books. I have been breeding AQHA Reining horses for almost 20 years now. I have a very good eye for what I want and what crosses will work and what will not. It comes from doing it for some time. That being said. I have freinds who have been doing the same thing for almost 50 years and as good as I think I am They are 100 times better. It is not something you can just pick up and put down. It is something you live for years.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

OP, come here and buy my grade. She's just what you want! She wasn't bred with anything in mind, I got her for free, actually. I'm just trying to figure out what will suit her the best. Most likely, we'll be stuck at the local level, and I'm 100% okay with that. 
There's a reason why I got her for free. And there's a reason tons of grades go to slaughter. There is NO market for a mixed breed un-registered mutt.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

DrumRunner said:


> I'd rather the OP breed dogs than horses..


How about not breeding anything. I foster for a local rescue. You should see all the dogs that come through the emails every week. I have champion dogs who I will not breed for that simple reason.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

BlazingFameStables said:


> Y.Y you'll see one day... everybody laughed and criticized the Wright brothers too... and look who came up with the first flying machine. Now, I think I've said my piece and defended it well. If anyone else wants to say something to bring me down, forget it, you're not changing this stubborn mule's mind.


Ummmmm...what?

I have two mutts. One is my dog, the other is my horse. My dog is an aussie/st bernard mix. My horse is a Percheron/paint cross. 

My dog has all the hip problems of both breeds. He is five-years-old and, if he's been laying on the cement or a hard floor for any length of time, has trouble getting up. I would love to do agility with him because he's fast as all get-out and nimble as heck. I've seen him catch a jack rabbit at a dead run. However, after he runs even across the yard and does a hard turn, he's limping for hours afterward. Would he have these problems if he were a well-bred purebred? Probably not. 

My horse, fortunately, ended up with all the good traits of both breeds. He got the loud paint coloring; the husky, built-like-a-tank Percheron build; the draft quietness; the draft smooth gaits; and the paint quickness. He's perfect (at least for me). However, his half-sister, who is from the same sire and is a Percheron/paint cross as well, is the exact polar opposite of Aires and is an example of cross-breeding gone wrong. She's got more conformational flaws than I care to think about, she's not the brightest crayon in the box, and it took my BO three years to find her a home (he got her as a weanling and just barely found someone to buy her at the beginning of the summer). 

So, what happens to your grand scheme when the horses you cross breed end up coming out like my horse's half-sister, with all the bad traits of the breeds/horses they're out of? Do you have a plan for the rejects? The ones that don't fit your "perfect horse" criteria? You do realize just how far in the crapper the horse market is right now, right? How many purebred, registered horses are being sold at auction for a fraction of what they would be worth in a normal market, and then more often than not being sent to slaughter? And that, with the price of hay projected to go up this winter, those same horses won't be worth the gas to take them to auction or to slaughter? Have you thought this through AT ALL?!


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> How about not breeding anything. I foster for a local rescue. You should see all the dogs that come through the emails every week. I have champion dogs who I will not breed for that simple reason.


Oh I don't doubt that at all.. In my post I was most worried about the horses than the dogs.. I completely agree that the OP has no business breeding anything.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

It simply _astounds_ me at the cavalier attitude some people have of creating another life. :-x

You wanna take chances and put your own life on the line, have at it. When you start mucking about and have the audacity to bring another life into the world simply because you have some unrealistic, perverse, grandiose idea about how it's all going to turn out, the hubris is simply unbelievable. 

Put down the Saddle Club and Black Stallion books, and maybe pick up an actual book that's concerned with genetics and breeding.


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

OP .. welcome to the forum, and the fire storm! lol.

Every great thing started with someone's hair-brained idea. It's America (assuming you live here) and you are free to proceed as you will.

There are many many many MANY horse breeds that started as a cross of some kind .. and many crosses that are bred specifically for a purpose.

Dream on ... and plan well...

And, again, welcome!


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

ladygodiva1228 said:


> The easiest thing to breed would be dust bunnys. Low maintenance, come in different sizes and colors and for the most part are pretty easy keepers.


Thing you have to be careful about with Dust Bunnys is that they can be dangorus. My Cleaning fairy came up missing a bit a go and I found her under my bed strangled by a dust bunny.


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

Dust Bunnies are extremely flammable too..

ETA.. Apparently they explode as well..


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Speed Racer said:


> It simply _astounds_ me at the cavalier attitude some people have of creating another life. :-x
> 
> You wanna take chances and put your own life on the line, have at it. When you start mucking about and have the audacity to bring another life into the world simply because you have some unrealistic, perverse, grandiose idea about how it's all going to turn out, the hubris is simply unbelievable.
> 
> Put down the Saddle Club and Black Stallion books, and maybe pick up an actual book that's concerned with genetics and breeding.


Or maybe just look at the horse market and how far down the price of horses is. 

There's a horse I used to work with at the Girl Scout horse camp that is for sale on Craigslist right now. She's a registered buckskin paint, very well-trained, and a perfect kid's horse. I've ridden this horse and she's a blast...when you can get her to move (she's chubby and lazy, but an absolute doll). Heck, if I could afford two horses, I'd buy her and keep her for my son to ride because she's that much of a babysitter. At the horse camp, we'd put all the terrified little girls on her because she's short (they say she's 14.2hh on the ad, but if she hits 14hh, she'd be lucky) and was so sweet. They're asking $4500 for her and I can tell you right now that she's going to be for sale for a VERY long time. Even with as awesome as she is, I'd be surprised if they end up getting $500-1000 for her.

Here's her ads: Fabulous Buckskin Paint Mare
Perfect Kids Buckskin Paint Mare


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

Maybe an ant farm would be appropriate.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

texasgal said:


> OP .. welcome to the forum, and the fire storm! lol.
> 
> Every great thing started with someone's hair-brained idea. It's America (assuming you live here) and you are free to proceed as you will.
> 
> ...


While this is true the fact is that these horses where not bred to get these traits they where bred b/c they already had them. They where breeding like horses together to get a consistent trait.


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

texasgal said:


> OP .. welcome to the forum, and the fire storm! lol.
> 
> *Every great thing started with someone's hair-brained idea. It's America (assuming you live here) and you are free to proceed as you will.*
> 
> ...


And they all lived happily ever after............... (meanwhile, back in reality.........)


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

QHriderKE said:


> Maybe an ant farm would be appropriate.


lol I suggested the same..


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## xxdanioo (Jan 17, 2012)

QHriderKE said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Golden Horse*
> _Sorted!! Great idea that lady, how's the snow over your way?_
> 
> My bus didn't run today, and I've shoveled the deck off twice already. Stupid winter.


It's pretty much all melted now here... Which is good haha.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

BlazingFameStables said:


> ...you're not changing this stubborn mule's mind.


A MULE! That's my suggestion. They're sterile. Perfect!


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

DrumRunner said:


> Dust Bunnies are extremely flammable too..
> 
> ETA.. Apparently they explode as well..



Mmmm starts speaking soothingly to DR while backing slowly away, and reaching for


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## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

BlazingFameStables said:


> Y.Y you'll see one day... everybody laughed and criticized the Wright brothers too... and look who came up with the first flying machine. Now, I think I've said my piece and defended it well. If anyone else wants to say something to bring me down, forget it, you're not changing this stubborn mule's mind.


 
If you breed a bunch of random horses together and they can fly, I will truly be impressed. It would impress me almost as much if you gave up the idea of breeding more horses and bought an already made mix from an auction house, gave it a good home and began your training quest to making it a champion. 

Anyone can toss a couple horses together and let them do their thing. No skill there. It takes a better horse person to realize why it isn't such a good idea.


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

Golden Horse said:


> Mmmm starts speaking soothingly to DR while backing slowly away, and reaching for


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I didn't get where the OP lived but if it was the UK then they've missed the boat
Sport horses are cross breeds, show ponies, hacks, riding horses, working and ridden hunters, cobs - all showring classes judged as a type and not a breed, most eventers, a lot of top showjumpers and many dressage horses are also cross breeds
The problem with developing a new breed is that it takes many generations of perfecting as there is always going to be a strong chance of a throwback.
We had two mares that were both by a Cleveland bay stallion from a TB mare. One was 15.2 and looked pretty much like a TB and the other was 16.2 and could have passed for a pure Cleveland Bay.
In the US there's a big market for part bred arabs for the showring and if you get an arabian that likes jumping its going to be amazing at it


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

If you want a horse that does endurance, jumping and is a nice all around horse then go find a nice all around horse and train it for those things you want. You can build endurance and really if its a champion or not is going to depend more on the individual. Its also way more likely that you get a grade horse and work with it and end up with what you are looking for than that you breed that grade horse. When you think about it most of our breeds are the result of hundreds of years of selecting horses for one trait or quality. So, its not going to happen in your life. Dogs its possible if you live 60 years and start breeding dogs with intention at age 20 and you breed them every heat cycle which is twice a year then yes you could establish a "breed". Horses you are waiting for them to mature (lets assume 4 years), then you wait 12 months for a foal which you then need at least another 4 years to determine its potential. You could have had 8 litters of dogs by the time you get one potential horse. 

I do in part agree with the idea that how much of the champion horses being seen are that way because they were selected for that show. Ie. how many dressage horses are warmbloods because they are talented at it and how many are champions because they were trained for it. You could have a talented quarterhorse with a flare for dressage thats totally overlooked because its not a warm blood. That said obviously don't buy a mini if you want to jump 3 feet. 

I would just get a nice horse and have fun with it life is waaay to short to spend creating the next "super horse".


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## QOS (Dec 8, 2008)

Perhaps the OP is just entertaining the dreams and fantasies we all have : )

as for designer dogs - oh please. That just rubs me the wrong way when they put "designer Snoodle" on an ad and ask way more $$$ than REGISTERED PAPERED litters. The one that probably ****es me off the most is a "Puggles" that are supposed to look "like little bloodhounds". 

My dad had registered beagles for field trials when I was a kid. I have trained my share of beagles for hunting and they are FANTASTIC dogs, especially for children. I think Pugs are darn near the cutest thing this side of a shaved Pekingese. The Beagle is bred to run - Pugs have little short noses and don't have the nose capacity for the running 0.0 they have breathing problems. So, they breed a dog that is bred to run with a dog with breathing issues....yeah...that is smart :evil:


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## peppersgirl (Aug 24, 2012)

texasgal said:


> OP .. welcome to the forum, and the fire storm! lol.
> 
> Every great thing started with someone's hair-brained idea. It's America (assuming you live here) and you are free to proceed as you will.
> 
> ...


I would like to add that a lot of these breeds were created when we actually used our horses for everyday life.. and needed them for specific things.


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## Elizabeth Bowers (Jan 26, 2012)

From what i've gathered her friend is breeding German Shepard and Boarder Collies together. WTF?? My aunt is a huge dog person and i've researched and read about many breeds and raised plenty of mutts (horses included). German Shepard's have a genetic hip disease, that is why after about 3yrs they can hardly walk, yes they are great guard dogs, but i've met quite a few who weren't too friendly with other animals ( ie named killer for a reason!!!). As for boarder collies, they are soo prone to heart problems because of overexertion. These dogs never seem to quit with anything, therefore have a short life span. Wonderful for herding and great companions, with high intelligence, yea sure. But mixing those together you'll possibly end up with a dog that has a congestive heart problem and a genetic hip disease. Not to mention any other diseases not recorded in previous lines. Along with temperament, it is passed down form parent to pup its' been proven. And most of these mutts will end up in a animal shelter or rescue because people can't afford them anymore or just don't want them.
As for horses, don't be breeding anymore, look at all the mutts out there at auction who might have decent parentage and have some value, but won't because they will most likely be going to a kill buyer. Just like the PMU horses, all of these cast aways were bred for something, and will be getting the short end of the stick. Super horses are already bred and existing, they are each bred for a specific purpose and pursuit in riding. Look at them and consider. Put your life in place of theirs and see what could happen.....


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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

Well my designer dog( chihuahua -Pekingese mix) is allergic to grass, chicken, grain, corn, normal dog food. She also has a collapsing trachea. 

Darwin would not approve.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## barrelbeginner (Jan 31, 2012)

Elizabeth Bowers said:


> As for horses, don't be breeding anymore, look at all the mutts out there at auction who might have decent parentage and have some value, but won't because they will most likely be going to a kill buyer.


 agree with the most going to kill buyer, There are already enough horses out there starving.. why *try* to come up with whatever you said you wanted in a horse.. when it will take generations to finish.. IF it was to work..

Where would those hundreds of foals go that didn't turn out right?..


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## Tazzie (Nov 8, 2011)

Wow. Um, where to start?

Congrats that you are "properly" schooled in genetics and things! I learned about hybrid vigor too! In high school... I have taken genetic classes when I was in college as well, though most of it was cattle based. Difference with cattle outcrosses is that typically the product winds up on your dinner table and not someone else's problem like a grade horse would most likely become. Have you watched Camelot Horse Weekly? There have been some NICE horses that have gone through from people thinking that it wasn't a big deal to breed a bunch of grade horses. I do own a grade myself, but that is because her personality matches mine, she's safe for my non-horsey husband to handle, and she'll be great for what I want: low level Dressage and trails. My husband has tried to talk me into breeding her in the future. All I ask him is why when I can go to an auction and get something of similar quality that I didn't bring into this world. Would I love a cute foal to play with? Sure! Who doesn't? But do I feel my mare, or other mares I see breeding, are worth it? Oh heck no!

And yeah, sure, there are the exceptions of a crazily crossbred horse doing great in the higher levels (Teddy O'Connor being one), but frankly how common is that? It's not. I just don't see the point of creating a new breed when there are plenty of purebreds that will work for exactly what you want, or lovely grade horses already in existence looking for a new home.


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## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

Elizabeth Bowers said:


> From what i've gathered her friend is breeding German Shepard and Boarder Collies together. WTF?? My aunt is a huge dog person and i've researched and read about many breeds and raised plenty of mutts (horses included). German Shepard's have a genetic hip disease, that is why after about 3yrs they can hardly walk, yes they are great guard dogs, but i've met quite a few who weren't too friendly with other animals ( ie named killer for a reason!!!). As for boarder collies, they are soo prone to heart problems because of overexertion. These dogs never seem to quit with anything, therefore have a short life span. Wonderful for herding and great companions, with high intelligence, yea sure. But mixing those together you'll possibly end up with a dog that has a congestive heart problem and a genetic hip disease. Not to mention any other diseases not recorded in previous lines. Along with temperament, it is passed down form parent to pup its' been proven. And most of these mutts will end up in a animal shelter or rescue because people can't afford them anymore or just don't want them.
> As for horses, don't be breeding anymore, look at all the mutts out there at auction who might have decent parentage and have some value, but won't because they will most likely be going to a kill buyer. Just like the PMU horses, all of these cast aways were bred for something, and will be getting the short end of the stick. Super horses are already bred and existing, they are each bred for a specific purpose and pursuit in riding. Look at them and consider. Put your life in place of theirs and see what could happen.....


_Poorly-bred_ German Shepherds are more likely to get HD. That is why _good and reputable breeders_ get their dogs tested (elbows, hips, etc) before breeding them so they don't chance some genetic fault passing on. I had a Shepherd for eleven years and he never had any problems that weren't caused by outside sources (the only real bad thing I remember is when our friend's Akita ***** attacked him in our own house and nicked his jugular...I freaked out). Bad breeders and bad owners cause the major problems. It's sad. Corgis are also prone to have heart conditions and seizure issues.


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## QOS (Dec 8, 2008)

We had a GSD for nearly 14 years. She came from a reputable breeder and her hips were just fine. She was a gorgeous example of the breed and gentle and sweet to boot.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Well, the people breeding the designer mutts are hardly what I'd call _reputable_ breeders.

Anyone who is reputable WON'T breed their carefully bred, health guaranteed GSD to a Border Collie, nor would a reputable BC breeder breed their well thought out bred ***** to a GSD. So you _already_ have the worst to the worst right off the bat. 

So much for all that 'hybrid vigor' crap. :?

Just because you have a dog and a ***** with working sexual organs doesn't mean you should breed them. The same holds true for _any_ animal including horses.


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## barrelbeginner (Jan 31, 2012)

what is a GSD?


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

German Shepherd. GSD is the abbreviation.


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## barrelbeginner (Jan 31, 2012)

OH HAHAHA.. I thought it ment Good Sound Dog.. muahahhaha..


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

barrelbeginner said:


> OH HAHAHA.. I thought it ment Good Sound Dog.. muahahhaha..


Well that would be a start


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## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

Speed Racer said:


> Well, the people breeding the designer mutts are hardly what I'd call _reputable_ breeders.
> 
> Anyone who is reputable WON'T breed their carefully bred, health guaranteed GSD to a Border Collie, nor would a reputable BC breeder breed their well thought out bred ***** to a GSD. So you _already_ have the worst to the worst right off the bat.
> 
> ...


I never said designer breeders or backyard breeders were at all reputable. I honestly think that over 75% of the population shouldn't even _OWN_ an animal, let alone breed. There are so many bad and downright incompetent pet owners out there...


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Meh, I don't know about 75% not being allowed to own animals, but I do agree the majority of people should_ never_ consider breeding anything, and for some people that includes themselves.

I've had horses over 34 years. Not _once_ have I ever had the idea of breeding one. There are plenty of great horses out there for the taking, and trying to reinvent the wheel is foolish as well as just plain outright ludicrous. My ego has never been_ that_ big to believe I know more than people who have spent their lives, money, and passion on breeding the best animals they can.


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

QHriderKE said:


> A MULE! That's my suggestion. They're sterile. Perfect!


Well she did say she wanted hybrid vigor and that would be the only way to get true hybrid vigor with horses.


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## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

My thing is that the majority of people that I have even remotely known were just...complete retards when it comes to animals. They make excuse after excuse for anything that's wrong, especially behaviorally, about their animal, when in reality (I know this for a fact about people that I have known) they either didn't bother to train their animal at all or they trained it improperly. Lots of dogs have lots of energy, and people complain about that for some reason regardless of the fact that they don't bother to let them out or take them on walks? That makes no sense. That's one of the reasons I'm a pet sitter. One particular instance that is actually bugging everyone in my neighborhood is this one family got rid of their dog because they "couldn't handle it" (they never trained it at all) and the very next day they went out and bought a new puppy (who honestly looks way too young to be separated from its mother). There is so much wrong with that...


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Reno, that's part of the problem I have with people who buy those little yippy, snippy dogs. They treat them like they're cats that bark, and the animals turn into vicious little heathens. They're DOGS! Regardless of their size, they need training just like their larger brethren.

Of course, they either keep the nasty little ankle biter and make excuses for 'wittle Uggums' when it nails someone, or they send it to the pound when it gets even too vicious for them to handle. Then the animal gets put down because of its owner's failure to turn it into a good canine citizen.

Every dog needs training and a JOB. My Dane's job is to guard the house. From the bed. She does that very well, but you'd better believe she went to training as a youngster and learned manners. She wasn't born knowing how to sit or heel, and aggressive behavior has _never_ been allowed. She can bark, but she's not allowed to bite.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

All dogs should be raised as if they were going to grow up to be Doberman, well that's how I raise all mine, if it ain't cute for a Dobie to do it,. it isn't cute for an Eddie the Beagle either


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## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

Exactly. It makes me want to bash my head in when I see people like that. I had a friend who had a stranger-aggressive dog that she walked in a muzzle to protect other people...this lady walked up and said that my friend was being cruel to the dog and she actually _pushed_ my friend away and removed the dog's muzzle and got bit...and then started yelling about how the dog was aggressive and shouldn't be taken out on walks like that. Seriously? *headdesk x10000*

There is no shortage of idiots. You're never safe...


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## Merlot (Sep 12, 2012)

Speed Racer said:


> Meh, I don't know about 75% not being allowed to own animals, but I do agree the majority of people should_ never_ consider breeding anything, and for some people that includes themselves.


Actually I have to say that I feel that MOST people should not have children. The world is in a human population crises. I decided when I was 4 years old that I would never have kids because of this (I am 48 now) and it's a decision I have NEVER regretted.
Besides, they would probably have ended up inheriting my cankles :shock:


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## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

Merlot said:


> Actually I have to say that I feel that MOST people should not have children. The world is in a human population crises. I decided when I was 4 years old that I would never have kids because of this (I am 48 now) and it's a decision I have NEVER regretted.
> Besides, they would probably have ended up inheriting my cankles :shock:


XD I won't ever have kids (purposely...) because the world is overpopulated, I don't like children, and I have neither the financial nor emotional/mental capacity to care for a human child AND my horse.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

I agree. People should use their brains before they have kids. If you have a history of genetic diseases and genetically inherited mental illnesses, WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO BRING A CHILD INTO THE WORLD AND PLAGUE THEM WITH YOUR PROBLEMS?
/rantover


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## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

I am so sick of people who believe that breeding 2 purebred dogs together to create something with a stupid name will a healthier dog. As someone who has spent over 25 years in rescue, I can say that is a bunch of crap. The shelters and rescues are full of all these supposedly healthy "designer dogs" and many of them have huge health issues. Luxating patellas, heart murmurs, hip dysplasia, collapsed trachea's, eye problems, you name it. It is such a silly concept that breeding two dogs of purebred heritage will somehow produce something better and healthier. 

My biggest complaint with people who think they are going to create a new breed is... what happens to all the failures along the way? What happens to the hundreds or thousands of puppies that show up before you get the recipe just right? How about the horses that you will create before that recipe is right? Do you have hundreds of great homes lined up for the foals or will you just ship them off to rescue?


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

Yea, try working at the vets and have these folks bring in their VERY expensive "designer" dog and find out it has so many genetic messes, its a walking diaster. I laugh, these idiots are breeding what we used to call MUTTS and couldn't give away and the buying public falls for their claims and false information. 
Hybrid vigor is a joke. Breeding two breeds together to make a better dog is stupid, you still get the genetics from both breeds, both good and bad and can still produce a diaster on four legs. The reasoning behind hybrid vigor was when breeders kept breeding, and still do breed, the most "fashionable" type of dog of its breed, not caring about HD or eye issues or elbows or bites or whatever else pops up. They breed to whatever is in "fashion" at the time to make money or stud fees . After a certain time of breeding in this famous "line" genetic issues start popping up and they have no where to turn, so bring in some totally different breed to make a "designer breed" and bring in fresh blood, thus "mix breeds have hybred vigor"...which is there way of selling more puppies to the public.
Well bred GSD do not have anymore hip issues than any other dysplastic prong breed, if bred carefully. Shelties now have HUGE hip problems, which is sad in a smaller breed. Poodles have eye issues. ANY breed has genetic problems, the backyard breeders only want money and keep producing genetically inferier dogs, good breeders try to produce genetically sound.
Let the OP breed goldfish, she can flush them down the toilet when she is done producing her "miracle " critters.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Yes you might be able to come up with a new breed that meets your criteria but it takes knowledgeable people with a huge wallet. Read up on the making of Poco Bueno owned by the King Ranch in Texas. It was creating a good cow horse with fast sprint ability, the strength to hold a big calf, a mellow temperment and not too big. They bo't the best horses for their comformation and temperment and sometimes things didn't work out. And when it came together Poco Bueno was the result. He had all the attributes they were looking for. If it wasn't for the very wealthy, the qh may not exist.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Check out some of the British breeds. They would meet your criteria. The Brits call them Cobs.


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## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

wyominggrandma said:


> Yea, try working at the vets and have these folks bring in their VERY expensive "designer" dog and find out it has so many genetic messes, its a walking diaster. I laugh, these idiots are breeding what we used to call MUTTS and couldn't give away and the buying public falls for their claims and false information.
> Hybrid vigor is a joke. Breeding two breeds together to make a better dog is stupid, you still get the genetics from both breeds, both good and bad and can still produce a diaster on four legs. The reasoning behind hybrid vigor was when breeders kept breeding, and still do breed, the most "fashionable" type of dog of its breed, not caring about HD or eye issues or elbows or bites or whatever else pops up. They breed to whatever is in "fashion" at the time to make money or stud fees . After a certain time of breeding in this famous "line" genetic issues start popping up and they have no where to turn, so bring in some totally different breed to make a "designer breed" and bring in fresh blood, thus "mix breeds have hybred vigor"...which is there way of selling more puppies to the public.
> Well bred GSD do not have anymore hip issues than any other dysplastic prong breed, if bred carefully. Shelties now have HUGE hip problems, which is sad in a smaller breed. Poodles have eye issues. ANY breed has genetic problems, the backyard breeders only want money and keep producing genetically inferier dogs, good breeders try to produce genetically sound.
> Let the OP breed goldfish, she can flush them down the toilet when she is done producing her "miracle " critters.


It's really...I don't think there's a word for it...unfortudisgusticrazy? I swear people are virtually Nazis about dogs. Some are extremely snooty and think that mutts are "below" any purebred dog. Some are completely ignorant and want to eliminate purebred-buying because of mutts in shelters. Some are just ridiculously frustrating and advocate the breeding of these "designer dogs" with so many problems it's sad.

Me? I love German Shepherds. If I had a heart breed, it would be the GSD. I've owned two purebred Shepherds in my life, one from champion show lines and one from a rescue and likely backyard bred. One of the best dogs I've ever owned was a rescue mutt, Siberian Husky x German Shepherd. He was the most intelligent, loving, loyal dog I had ever come across, may he rest in peace.

I've seen breeders creating microscopic teacup versions of breeds. Like, literally, the adult dog can sit in the palms of your hands...it's disgusting. A dog is not a doll...it's not a fashion statement. It's a living creature. Going back to German Shepherds, the extreme roach-back that has been evolving into the crazy thing it is now...it just scares me. Only seventeen years ago, they didn't have too much slope, but now...it's no wonder they're prone to HD.

Backyard breeders...oh. My. GOD. The friend with the Akita was a BYB. He had a dog and a ***** (I loved the male...so sweet). He trained them to be aggressive, through methods I would rather not disclose as it disturbed me. He never tested them. I was around for one litter. The puppies were healthy, thankfully, and gorgeous...but I wouldn't buy a BYB unpapered puppy for $4000. He's the kind of person who wants to try to cross a wild cat and an aggressive dog breed to see what happens...even though it's genetically impossible. *facepalm* When his dogs were finally taken away from him, the darn people took my aforementioned rescue Shepherd too, even though I had nothing to do with this guy's operation...I never got her back either.


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## Merlot (Sep 12, 2012)

This is my 13 year old NZ Farm dog (Huntaway), Partly Bluett with his 7 year old girlfriend Badger Magoo (same breed). The only thing these pooches have ever been to the vet for is neutering/speying and when Badger injured her leg chasing a rabbit (had to have it amputated).

These pooches are basically a huge mix of breeds over many generations and are perhaps (I believe) the hardiest pooches on the planet.
I see so many 'pure bred' dogs with so many problems in New Zealand, it blows my mind. I would, for that reason NEVER own a pure bred dog.

Also I have a siamese cat (whom I adore of course) - he is purebred and wouldn't you know it, suffers from asthma, something I found out is common in this breed.
On the other hand my Tabby Tubby (also adored and a blatent mixture of many cats), aged 12, has never been to the vet for anything except being speyed.
So...what am I saying? ....I have no idea, I've forgotten:shock:


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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

Ok so to elaborate on my "designer dog", first she was an accidental litter and I only paid $100 for her. She came potty trained and all her puppy shots she could have at 10 weeks, the $100 was worth the potty training alone lol. I wanted a small fluffy dog for my apartment. My big dog (pitt/rott mix ) obviously could not come with me when I left home. 

I call my little one my retarted cotton ball because, well, I'm pretty sure she is retarded. She costs me hundreds each year because of her being so "special". Luckily she doesn't have the knee problems so often associated with chihuahuas. But seriously, what kind of dog is allergic to grass?!

Oh and she barks (this is where the retarded part comes in), I can't get her to stop. As soon as she barks she hides because she knows she's not supposed to, if she tries to hold her barks in she starts to shake she wants to bark so bad...... She bites too but has only really aggressively bit one person and they totally had it coming. I told the lady to stay away from my dog (it was a client, the office was at home so the dog lived there too) so what does the lady do..... well the dog walks around with her tail between her legs and wont get near this lady because she gives off a sketchy vibe, well the dog is growling as this lady is in a part of the house she shouldn't be so the next best thing is to try to take the dogs toy..... yeap I couldn't even say sorry for that one.

Haha sorry for the story, just had to defend the "designer" dogs, well kinda, mine's kind of a story as to why not to get one.....


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## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

It also cracks me up that people will defend the mutt by saying " I had a mutt and it was the best dog I ever had" or "I had a mutt and it was the healthiest dog I knew of" Both of those statements might very well be true but it isn't a fact that all mutts are great dogs or that they are healthier then purebred dogs. 

As someone else mentioned about the Shepherds, there are a lot of people that are against some of the things that are happening to that breed. The problem with all of this is the extreems. The Shepherd slope, the teenie weenie dogs, the short noses becomming so short the dog can never have normal breath, the dogs head becomming so large the mother cannot whelp on her own. Extremes are just bad, Period. 

There are many purebred dogs that are becomming quite unhealthy and that is a fact. Thinking you can then just breed mutts to be healthy, is not a fact. What people should be doing is focusing on getting "heathy" back into everyones breeding practice. Forgetting about extremes "biggest, smallest, most angle, shortest nose, biggest head, longest teeth" whatever the extreme breeders are looking for. As consumers, we control the breeding practices. It doesn't pay to breed dogs that nobody buyts. Sadly, the consumers right now are on the extreme band wagon. Education is the key. 

Ask people do you really want a dog that can't breath right and suffers every day for that reason, just because you think it is cute?
Do you really need a dog that is angled that much if it means the dog will not be physically sound?
Do you need the dog to be the size of a hamster if it means health problems to the dog? How do you "LOVE THE DOG" if it means, you took part in promoting the suffering of the dog, by purchasing it?

Also, people purchase a lot of these dogs because they are convenient. No waiting for a puppy (like you would from a reputable breeder) no having to answer questions about yourself (like you would from a reputable breeder) etc...

Impulse buys lead the market, selfish bragging rights (mine is smaller, bigger, more angled, shorter nosed) lead the market. Education is key. Changing minds is difficult. 

I wish I could take all these want to be breeders to the auction houses, show them the thousands of dogs/horses that are already made and now suffering. I guess if the people are selfish and greedy enough, that wouldn't make a difference though.


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## MangoRoX87 (Oct 19, 2009)

This is getting thrown in kinda late..
PUGGGLESSSS!! So cute:3

But another example of some are cute and some are just....uhh..grimlin looking..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

^^^hey I resent that. Mine is a gremlin.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Puggles might be 'cute' but they're a blend of two dogs who should never have been bred together.

Why oh why breed a Beagle and a Pug? One was originally bred as a hunting dog, and they're energetic and LOUD. The other was bred to be a house pet, and they have breathing issues. Oh yeah, the puppies are gunna be KYOOT, so I guess that's all that really matters. :-x

Y'all can wax poetic about your mutts if you want to, but people who would pay champion lineage prices for a dog whose only claim to fame is being 'cute' are cracked.


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## ladygodiva1228 (Sep 5, 2012)

Speed Racer I hear ya. I have Beagles 13 inch red tick AKC registered ones great hunters and at agility, but my husbands daughter thought she could just come over with her female pug to breed with my male Beagle so she could sell puggles. Um no not happening. Her pug was purchased from a pet store at a local mall. Now we all know were those dogs come from. I have yet to see a AKC registered dog be purchased from a mall pet store. Ok and even if she came from a very good breeder it will still not happen. I really see no need to have these designer dogs.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Seeing as a Beagle is simply awesome on its own, why mix it with anything?


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## arrowsaway (Aug 31, 2011)

I will never purchase an animal from a breeder, or breed one myself.

The market for animals is so flooded right now, that even the most reputable of breeders with the highest caliber of animals and the best intentions are contributing to the problem. I would implore anyone looking to bring home a new family member to search their local shelters instead. 
I work in veterinary medicine, and have done a lot of rescue work, and I can say without a doubt that it's much more rewarding to save a life than to create a new one. 
We had a woman come into the clinic last week with her 5 lb yorkie *****, who had never been vaccinated or given heartworm prevention in the 5 years she had visiting our hospital. The ***** had given birth to four babies already, but had not passed another since 7 am that morning. It was then 6 pm. Doc told her, I can give her oxytocin, but after reviewing the xrays [the pup was not headfirst, but not breach either, quite contorted] he said it was against his medical recommendation to do so, as it could cause detachment of the placenta. She insisted for 20 minutes that we try that route, rather than a c-section, and that she would pay us all for our time. Yeah, right. [We close at 6.] Her daughter finally convinced her to go ahead with the c-section, and I was witness to the birth of the final, and largest, puppy. He was beautiful, but as he took his first breaths, I couldn't help but wonder where he would end up. If his life would be filled with happiness and a full belly, or terror and neglect. As cute as he was, I found myself wishing that he had never come into existence.

I know my vision is one for an ideal world, which sadly, does not exist. I know people are still going to breed, and still pay thousands for "purebred" animals, but I can dream, right? For everyone one homeless and unwanted animal adopted, there is a step in the right direction...


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

So many of these problems with dogs and horses come about when people take a breed and then start to refine it to produce an extreme feature - flatter noses, tinier heads, longer legs, bigger quarters etc so an animal that once had a purpose suddenly becomes nothing more than health issue or an art form.
Its been going on for years. In the UK the dog we called an alsation became known as a GSD. They were big powerful dogs without the hip problems but everyone wanted that droopy hind end look. 
We have a pug thats been bred from a really good line - no runny nose and runny eyes and not having such an extreme flat face means that she is more energetic and so easily keeps a good weight.
What is absurd is that our little Pom who could be re-registered as a mini German Spitz is a cousin of the Giant German Spitz which is probably one of the closest relatives to the wolf. 
Its possible to cross two breeds to get an animal that might be more useful in some competitive nature - a lot of arabian cross breeds are an example of that as are the UK native ponies crossed with TB's and arabs and draft horses crossed in the same way to get a smaller sturdy compact cob that can carry any weight and live on next to nothing but no need to make a whole new breed of them


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## ThirteenAcres (Apr 27, 2012)

I couldn't read through all this thread, but I'm still laughing about the research of a "bit" of genetics. 

That must make someone an amazing breeder and keeper of all sorts of knowledge. 

I just don't get the backyard breeding craze. Admittedly, I'd like to breed my mare one day, but I am putting so much thought and research into it that it HURTS to think of it more. Which is why I HAVEN'T bred her thus far. If you really do your research, you start doubting yourself on the whole topic because there really are so many reasons NOT to breed, let alone breed for a new horse that will NEVER make it as a new "breed". That's so very arrogant to assume.

It would take decades and the finest of minds together breeding for a new trait to even begin to start a new breed, and that's only if this new offspring has anything even remotely new to add to the pool. Mixing and matching doesn't do any justice to any foal/s that result. 

Spend more time finding a horse that already exists with all those traits because they..well...already exist!


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

jaydee said:


> Its possible to cross two breeds to get an animal that might be more useful in some competitive nature - a lot of arabian cross breeds are an example of that as are the UK native ponies crossed with TB's and arabs and draft horses crossed in the same way to get a smaller sturdy compact cob that can carry any weight and live on next to nothing but no need to make a whole new breed of them


Exactly, this is the cross breeding that I am used to, keep the native ponies true to type, they are a great tradition, and still useful in their original role as a multi purpose horse. If you want a competition pony, cross with Arab or TB and you often get great little handy ponies, who usually find their niche in some sort of competition.

As you say no need to try and create a breed there are people who have spent years perfecting these sorts of crosses and their success rate is high.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Ok, I got halfway through this thread......and then the theme music from the Twilight Zone got so loud I couldn't read any longer. :lol:

:shock::shock::shock::shock::shock::shock::shock::shock::shock::shock::shock::shock::shock::shock::shock::shock:


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## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

I think someone mentioned me in passing, without using my name.

My big point was that, to me, it doesn't matter if I own a champion-lined purebred or a rescue mutt from a shelter. I love all my pets no matter where they come from. I don't mind people owning purebreds, mutts, or designer animals as long as they are _knowledgeable_. It's when people get something and expect it to be perfect forever without any effort on their part...that's when I have an issue.

And the extremes in breeds really does bug me. They look so uncomfortable :c


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## SunnyMeadeFarm (Sep 3, 2012)

*Think.*

Okay, BlazingFameStables, I don't even know if you are reading this thread anymore. But let me say this;

I realize you have been bombarded with negative comments and you were maybe just being curious and getting information, while a argument started. No person is going to change their mind if they are given negative feed back, it naturally puts up a shield. It was the wrong way for all of the commenters to act, thinking they were over you, does not help anybody.

All that said, I don't know anything about you, your age, background, horse knowledge. anything. I realize you plan to just create a breed (kind of confused if you are focusing on dog or horse..) of your own, and if it becomes a breed then so be it. alright. 

You obviously care about horses/dogs right? I assume so.
You are aware of the large amount of animals in need of homes sitting in cages/stalls looking out hoping for someone to come along and at least _talk _ to them? most likely.

Then with this in mind, why would you worry about breeding your own and just adding to this growing population? It is quite possible that the breed you are wishing to find is already made, very much so. A great breed that is full of those things are Arabian Warmbloods, a great example! they I don't believe have a true registry yet, at least not one I have seen, so they would be an unregisterable breed? 

Sort of what you are trying to do I suppose. 
I honestly get the feeling that the root reason of this is to _'Zing'_ those who breed purebreds and are very biased against mixed breeds, dogs or horses. 

I completely agree with your ideals, an animal shouldn't be limited by its pedigree. that statement rings so, so true. But hey, you wouldn't make a mixed without a purebred, so technically you would be supporting the breeding of purebreds. but that bias has caused those who resent them to breed. This in turn causes overpopulation.

So by adopting one of the needing animals you could train and have that animal grow as a being and show up to one of those fancy shows with all their fancy Arabians and Hanoverian's and maybe, just maybe, you and your trusty steed can blow everyone away! they will all stare out at your horse doing their thing and say... "What breed is that?" You can turn to them and say, "Why should it matter?" and trot off knowing you made a great thing adopting that skinny animal years before and now he pridefully sits between your legs in full trust of you and only you.

Wouldn't that be just a beautiful experience? 
I think so. 

So before you take on a enormous responsibility, not to mention the enormous expense, of breeding and raising a horse, and what happens when that horse does not follow your expectations? That is something you need to think about.

I do very much hope you read this. 
and those who do, thank you for reading my words!


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