# The LP Complex



## WyndellaRose (Nov 7, 2011)

I am not an expert but I love Appaloosas! 

When a horse is LpLp, they carry one copy of the gene and can pass it on. The foal could be a solid or have a pattern but even if a solid, it would still carry a copy of the gene and produce a foal with spots when bred to another horse that also carries it. 

LPLP are homozygous for it and will produce a pattern 100% of them time. These horses will also suffer from congenital stationary night blindness. 

Anyone better than me feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. 

EDIT: From what I've been reading and hearing in the Appy community, the snowcap pattern tends to produce colored foals most of the time. I have no clue if snowcaps are LpLp or LPLP. 

I've always wondered if the different types of patterns were the results of different genes but I've never asked nor researched that completely. No test exists yet to test for them anyway as far as I know. 

EDIT II: Also I understand that few spots are very desirable because they tend to be high color producers. 

Appaloosa LP and CSNB Testing


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

I'll answer what I can as best I can...

A colored/spotted Appy will throw color/spots on 25% of foals when crossed with a solid horse if the Appy is heterozygous, and 100% of the foals if it is homozygous (true fewspot or true snowcap).

I am not sure there is a "dominant" LP gene. We still do not know everything there is about Appy genetics and exactly why some are blankets, some are varnish roans, and why some have more than one pattern.

Normally there is no way to determine what pattern (if any) a foal will have, other than it will have something if one of its parents is homozygous. However, there are lines and combinations of lines that do produce a high incidence of leopards, and their are some lines and combination of lines that very rarely produce a solid foal. As we continue to discover more about Appy genetics, more and more of the answers will become clear...


ETA...Just a short opinion-editorial - Horses should not be bred only for color, so a fewspot should not be any more desireable as breeding stock than any other pattern. Horses should be bred for ability - not color. Sorry for the op-ed...the devil made me do it...


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Incomplete dominance means a single gene will produce a certain effect, while carrying both genes will cause a different effect. That's about as basic as I can figure out how to explain it. Cream is an incomplete dominant. Crcr will give you palomino, buckskin, and smoky black. CrCr will give you cremello, perlino, and smoky cream. 

I'm awful at how Appy genes actually work, I just know how to determine the pattern of them. :lol:


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Faceman said:


> A colored/spotted Appy will throw color/spots on 25% of foals when crossed with a solid horse if the Appy is heterozygous, and 100% of the foals if it is homozygous (true fewspot or true snowcap).


If the appy color is dominant, defined as that the color will show whether the horse is homozygous or heterozygous, and it is bred to a solid horse, which would not carry the gene, then how do you get the 25% rather than 50% if the appy horse is heterozygous? Would it not have a 50/50 chance of producing a foal with the appy trait?

Am I missing something?


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## Lonestar22 (May 22, 2009)

Is there anyway to tell if a horse is homozygous or heterozygous without testing? Or do you always have to test? I have a mare that shows a blanket with some spots and varnish roan, are those indicators of **** or hetero? 

Face- I don't plan on breeding for color, but if I do want to breed it's nice to know whats going on genetically. I know that tempermant and conformation trump color. Appy's are my breed of choice so it's nice to know about their different pattern traits.


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## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

Celeste said:


> If the appy color is dominant, defined as that the color will show whether the horse is homozygous or heterozygous, and it is bred to a solid horse, which would not carry the gene, then how do you get the 25% rather than 50% if the appy horse is heterozygous? Would it not have a 50/50 chance of producing a foal with the appy trait?
> 
> Am I missing something?


(recessive/non-existent alleles will be "n" for extra clarity)
Let's say a stallion is heterozygous for whatever pattern, nLP.
The mare is solid, doesn't carry any appaloosa pattern, nn.

---- n -- LP
n -- nn - nLP
n -- nn - nLP

So yes, there's a 50/50 chance with a heterozygous leopard and a non-leopard. Now, if it were two heterozygous leopards...

---- n -- LP
n -- nn - nLP
LP - nLP - LPLP

Then we get the 25% for both non-leopard and homozygous leopard and still 50% for heterozygous leopard.

So yes, you're correct...though I don't think we can really place a completely accurate number on what a foal will be...it's not like literally one out of four foals will be non-leopard and everything...XD


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## smguidotti (Jul 31, 2012)

From what I have read (there's a good article I am trying to find for you, I'll post if I find it), Lp is an incompletely dominant gene. (Appaloosa Genetics: Part I | Appaloosa Journal)

As far as we know there is only ONE gene that causes appaloosa characteristics -- The Lp gene -- it's kinda confusing because obviously not every appaloosa is a leopard, however, all appaloosas when combined with a _specific_ mate CAN produce a leopard. 

So, as much as I hate the term, a "varnish" roan, looks the way it does as a result of the Lp gene. There are no other genes involved, that people know of yet, to cause such a phenotype.

As Faceman said, yes, there are ways to tell if a horse is ****/heter w/out testing. 

A few spot (nearly "white") is considered homozygous as well as a TRUE snowcap.


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## smguidotti (Jul 31, 2012)

FOUND IT!!!

Appaloosa Colour Pattern Transmission


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## Lonestar22 (May 22, 2009)

Yall have been very helpful!

I found one of this studs foals for sale on Craigslist and I just think he is gorgeous. 
He is a snowcap correct? Is there something else at play causing his spottiness in the other areas?


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## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

*Can I hijack a tad bit?*

Okay, so you guys all seem to know the Lp and Appy genes well. Esp. compared to my next to nothing knowledge. 

So my mare is 1/2 appy, 1/2 quarter horse. Her mom was a cremello (*I think, cremello, or perlino, but 99% sure cremello, I can find her stuff and check). Her dad was a rather loud leopard Appy, I was told. 
She is a buttermilk buckskin, frosted mane and tail. But she has ONE spot. On her neck... But it is black, like her mane and tail. What causes that? Is that just a standard appy spot? And if it is, why only one? It just seems odd to me that her spot is black, my limited knowledge wants it to be a different color.  (to add, she does have one sock, with some ermine spots/not fully white at the hoof, but I didn't think that was relevant).
Okay that is all, it is something that I have always wanted to find the answer to, since I got her. 
Thanks!


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

A picture would help, but it sounds like a Bend Or spot rather than anything related to Lp.


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## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

Chiilaa said:


> A picture would help, but it sounds like a Bend Or spot rather than anything related to Lp.


Certainly! Hopefully these get close enough, I haven't taken any pics with the explicit purpose of documenting her beauty mark. 

These are summer and fall pics, where you can obviously see it better. She has no other black/dark on her besides the one spot.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

GracielaGata said:


> Okay, so you guys all seem to know the Lp and Appy genes well. Esp. compared to my next to nothing knowledge.
> 
> So my mare is 1/2 appy, 1/2 quarter horse. Her mom was a cremello (*I think, cremello, or perlino, but 99% sure cremello, I can find her stuff and check). Her dad was a rather loud leopard Appy, I was told.
> She is a buttermilk buckskin, frosted mane and tail. But she has ONE spot. On her neck... But it is black, like her mane and tail. What causes that? Is that just a standard appy spot? And if it is, why only one? It just seems odd to me that her spot is black, my limited knowledge wants it to be a different color.  (to add, she does have one sock, with some ermine spots/not fully white at the hoof, but I didn't think that was relevant).
> ...


There was a filly on here owned by another member that fits that description almost to a T. Her name was Sonata and I can't remember if she was sold or not, but I don't see that poster who had her on here very often. 

Lonestar, that stallion for sure has varnish going on, causing some spottiness. Along with splash, and I would wonder about if he carries frame also.


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## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

Poseidon said:


> There was a filly on here owned by another member that fits that description almost to a T. Her name was Sonata and I can't remember if she was sold or not, but I don't see that poster who had her on here very often.
> 
> Lonestar, that stallion for sure has varnish going on, causing some spottiness. Along with splash, and I would wonder about if he carries frame also.


Poseidon, she is my horse now! hehe. Her old owner, was my trainer, and I bought Sonaty from her last January! I know Cecillia is super busy with life and her new Thoroughbred she is madly in love with!  I wondered if anyone would realize she was one and the same, as I knew C posted pics of her in the past!


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

I just looked up her profile under Cecilia's account too to find that they are the same horse. :lol:


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## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

Poseidon said:


> I just looked up her profile under Cecilia's account too to find that they are the same horse. :lol:


Yep, they are.  She is my baby now! C did an awesome job with her.


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## Lonestar22 (May 22, 2009)

Po- Oh yeah, more genes to muddle my brain. Lol. Are things such as splash, frame, and sabino common in all breeds? I've mainly heard them used in Paint, QH, Arabian, and such. I wasn't sure if they were common in the Appy world unless it was an appy crossed with a pinto/paint.


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## smguidotti (Jul 31, 2012)

Lonestar22 said:


> Yall have been very helpful!
> 
> I found one of this studs foals for sale on Craigslist and I just think he is gorgeous.
> He is a snowcap correct? Is there something else at play causing his spottiness in the other areas?


I don't know if that is snow cap or nor but i am sure faceman can tell you. 

When I think of snowcap I think of Wapuzzan (who supposedly has thrown 100% color to date)



and the extra color? That's just the Lp gene being consistently unexpected I guess


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Lonestar22 said:


> Po- Oh yeah, more genes to muddle my brain. Lol. Are things such as splash, frame, and sabino common in all breeds? I've mainly heard them used in Paint, QH, Arabian, and such. I wasn't sure if they were common in the Appy world unless it was an appy crossed with a pinto/paint.


In terms of American stock horses, tobiano only exists in Paints. But frame, splash, and sabino are fair game in QHs, Paints, and Appaloosas, which is why we are so quick to push people to test their breeding horses particularly amongst those breeds if they are unsure of the frame status. 

Otherwise, the genes vary between breeds. Arabs have splash and sabino, but no frame or tobiano. Unrelated, but Gypsies carry tobiano, splash, and sabino, but no frame. There are TB lines that carry dominant white, along with frame and sabino. Probably splash, but I don't know of any testing that has been done (I haven't done much searching for information on it though).


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## smguidotti (Jul 31, 2012)

Lonestar22 said:


> Po- Oh yeah, more genes to muddle my brain. Lol. Are things such as splash, frame, and sabino common in all breeds? I've mainly heard them used in Paint, QH, Arabian, and such. I wasn't sure if they were common in the Appy world unless it was an appy crossed with a pinto/paint.


This is just my two-cents but almost every gene that causes white has the potential to pop up in every breed -- species -- especially when people selectively breed/line breed animals. 

Look up the term "leucistic" for some bizarre pure "white" animals -- also related to 'pie-baldism'. Some leucistic dear resemble sabino patterns seen in horses, it's quite interesting. 

The same pattern anomaly can be seen with snakes and other reptiles too. 












(ball python)


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

I'm NOT saying all the genes are the same but just suggesting that what ever causes these phenomena could be related is some very minuscule way


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## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

Poseidon said:


> There are TB lines that carry dominant white, along with frame and sabino. Probably splash, but I don't know of any testing that has been done (I haven't done much searching for information on it though).


Have you tried to find any information on the apparently splash NZ Thoroughbred named Hey What The and her foals Bubba and Whatever? All three have (or had...Bubba was euthe'd in '08) completely white faces (Whatever has two blue eyes), white bottom-half of the tail, and stockings. I'm currently trying to find if there has been any kind of testing done on them.

It's so very interesting.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

No. The only stuff I found in a few second Google search was from a TB color breeder who used to be a member here showing off pictures of one she assumed to be splash, but it was in 2008 and the splash test was only released to the public last year.


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## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

It would be interesting to see if they get tested now and what comes back. Whatever their genetics are, they are gorgeous.


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## Lonestar22 (May 22, 2009)

This is one of my mares. I see varnish roan (obviously lol) and a blanket with some spots. Does anyone see anything else?

She's a LOT fatter now. lol.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Celeste said:


> If the appy color is dominant, defined as that the color will show whether the horse is homozygous or heterozygous, and it is bred to a solid horse, which would not carry the gene, then how do you get the 25% rather than 50% if the appy horse is heterozygous? Would it not have a 50/50 chance of producing a foal with the appy trait?
> 
> Am I missing something?


You are correct - I hurriedly typed 25% instead of 50%...duh.

Two colored Appys will yield 25% solid, 50% colored, and 25% homozygous colored.

A colored Appy and a solid horse will yield 50% colored, and 50% solid, and of course 0% homozygous.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Lonestar22 said:


> Yall have been very helpful!
> 
> I found one of this studs foals for sale on Craigslist and I just think he is gorgeous.
> He is a snowcap correct? Is there something else at play causing his spottiness in the other areas?


Historically, the only way to confirm a snowcap is to cross them with solid horses and get color 100% of the time, because there are both false snowcaps and false fewspots. Mares don't produce enough foals to know for sure, so confirmation was primarily confined to stallions. With the new Lp tests, homozygosity may be able to be determined - I'm not sure because I honestly haven't reviewed all the tings they can now determine with the new tests...


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## ButtInTheDirt (Jan 16, 2011)

smguidotti said:


> This is just my two-cents but almost every gene that causes white has the potential to pop up in every breed -- species -- especially when people selectively breed/line breed animals.


I don't really have anything too scientific to add to this, but is anyone familiar with the AQHA registered stallion Reminic In Spots? Both of his parents are AQHA and passed on the gene to him. Apparently with changes to rules regarding white on Quarter Horses he was allowed to be fully registered. More info on him can be found here. Figured since we were sort of on the subject I might as well throw him in here for discussion.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Yes, Reminic comes up often. Don't believe everything you hear about him - he is the result of a fencejumper somewhere along the line...


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## smguidotti (Jul 31, 2012)

Check out this sexy beast 

I don't know who he is (found him on a blog with no source attached :evil


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

smguidotti said:


> Check out this sexy beast
> 
> I don't know who he is (found him on a blog with no source attached :evil


I can't tell his conformation from that picture, but the color is pretty stunning. I don't know how old he is, but Appys with contrast like that that don't varnish and hold their color are real gems...


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## Lonestar22 (May 22, 2009)

What pattern is he? Or he multiple patterns? How can you tell?


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## WyndellaRose (Nov 7, 2011)

That black and white stallion (I presume) while very handsome looks butt high to me but I'm no where near a conformation expert. He appears to be a snowcap with a blanket mixed in.


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## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

WyndellaRose said:


> That black and white stallion (I presume) while very handsome looks butt high to me but I'm no where near a conformation expert. He appears to be a snowcap with a blanket mixed in.


The "butt-high" you're seeing is probably due to the angle. Notice his feet, his back hooves are closer to the camera than the front of his body. That would cause the illusion that his rump is higher than his withers.


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## xxdanioo (Jan 17, 2012)

Is this mare a snowcap? this is one of her sons as well.


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## doubleopi (Dec 27, 2011)

I am not the best informed on the leopard complex and my understanding may be out of date, but aren't there at least 2 or 3 genes that determine the pattern?

LP-determines IF there is color but not necessarily how much and controls Varnish, although if homozygous produces white areas with no spots (Few Spot, Snowcap)

PATN1 and PATN2 determine HOW MUCH color is present and thus snow flake, blanket, leopard, near leopard. And in different combinations will produce wildly different results.

I'm sure I don't have a complete understanding of it all, so you can kick me if I'm wrong.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Lonestar22 said:


> What pattern is he? Or he multiple patterns? How can you tell?


He's a blanket with spots. No sign of varnish yet, but that is always a possibility with Appys...


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

xxdanioo said:


> Is this mare a snowcap? this is one of her sons as well.


No. She is a blanket with spots and a varnish roan.

As to her son, it is hard to tell from that picture. It looks like he has small spots in his blanket, but that could be dirt...


ETA...here is a picture of one of mine, a snowcap, with a similar pattern to yours, and notice there are no spots in his blanket...


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

smguidotti said:


> Check out this sexy beast
> 
> I don't know who he is (found him on a blog with no source attached :evil


Santa Fe Unbelievable - standing at stud in Brazil: Venda Cobertura Garanhão Appaloosa - Santa Fé Unbelievable (Cavalos) a BRL 500 em PrecioLandia Brasil (7e51i5)


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