# Confused why so much constriant USA horses?



## hectornikki (Mar 21, 2009)

I am not Pat Parreli or Monty Roberts, but I was doing their stuff back in New Zealand in 
the mid 80's as a teenager. Could ride an ex racehorse through streets with a peice of string.
I agree with a lot of their stuff, I just haven't made money from it.
Instead I have rehabilitated abused horses, and found them good homes.
The 2nd worst (breaks my heart the worst) Could not get near him, (touch his head, feet, bad enough rearer to go over. in a week I could catch him right away in a 2 acre paddock, and brush. a week later hooves (clean out) bridle,saddle and ride. Got him on cattlework, and he was magic.
RReared a couple of times, but twice he came over - when I first rode him - and 3 yrs later when we were helping put drought ridden cattle through our town, and he hated staying still. Both times I had time to get off the saddle.
I sat on his head. 4 yrs later he has never reared since - even after not being ridden for months!
He is a QTR Horse/ARAB X.
A lot of you (not all) Seem to have to Curb bits (so vicious), cross ties (can't control your horses?) and have to have Halters to catch them?
All you guys/gals are here on problem pages for help, of which I applaud you. But please!!! Treat your horse as a living/thinking and reactive being!
They are naturally free beings! Get to know your horse, know it doesn't like the hard bit, it doesn't like to be constrained so it can't move.
If I can get a previously untouchable horse to calling him in a 2 acre carrying saddle, and he canters up to me to be brushed etc, saddled without being tied up (and this is from yesterday ridden, or from last ride 6 months), then I think I do know something about Horses.
Please treat your horses as a soul with feelings?


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Wow - I so disagree with most of what you said.

ANY bit is bad in the wrong hands.

Putting a horse in crossties to groom and tack does not mean it can't be controlled. 

And so on and so forth . . .


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I agree with mls. especially about the bit. 
A bit is only has severe as the hands that are controlling the reigns.


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## Curly_Horse_CMT (Jun 8, 2008)

Yeah...wow. I agree wholeheartedly to what mls just said. Just because you go out into the pasture with a halter for your horse doesnt mean that you dont have respect for your horse. Like said, ANY bit can be nasty in the wrong hands. What you should start doing is understanding that all horses are individuals that need understanding in that way, not just by the ways of natural horsemanship. I love what Monty Roberts does, not so much with Pat Parrelli. Monty treats horses as horses. Just because my horse doesnt canter up to me in the pasture doesnt mean that we arent in harmony with one another...:shock::?


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

I use bits. My horse comes up to me in the pasture. 

I've also used hobbles out on the trail and to teach him to give. 
I use spurs. 

My horse and I still have a great bond. 

Like everyone else says. Anything can be abusive.


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## onetoomany (Dec 10, 2008)

OH NO! Not a dreaded... halter! I personally find a horse cantering straight at me a little scary and don't really want any of my horses to be that enthusiastic.


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## EternalSun (Mar 29, 2009)

Yea I don't get this post at all....

But here's some scenarios for you: You're leading your horse from his turnout to the barn. A tree falls in the woods and makes an ENOURMOUS noise. The horse spooks and his instincts tell him to take off. You pull on the halter a bit to get his attention. The horse feels the pressure you're applying to his head and focuses on you. He calms down enough for you to bring him inside and go about your day.

Scenario 2: Your horse is walking next to you with no halter or lead. Same tree falls, same "fight or flight" instincts kick in with this 1000 lb prey animal. Before you even know it, the horse takes off with no pressure from the halter or anyway to stop him, runs into the road, and gets hit by a mack truck. 

This is why I put a halter on my horse. All horses can spook. Many people call their horses "bombproof", but every horse has that limit where instinct, the same instinct that has kept them alive for millions of years, overrides their training. Why not use precautions to keep them safe when they do?


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

EternalSun said:


> Yea I don't get this post at all....
> 
> But here's some scenarios for you: You're leading your horse from his turnout to the barn. A tree falls in the woods and makes an ENOURMOUS noise. The horse spooks and his instincts tell him to take off. You pull on the halter a bit to get his attention. The horse feels the pressure you're applying to his head and focuses on you. He calms down enough for you to bring him inside and go about your day.
> 
> ...


Thank you eternalsun. You saved me a lot of typing. Hector, just because you do that with your horses doesn't mean that everyone else that does something different is wrong. In the wrong hands, yes, a curb can be cruel. But in those same wrong hands, so can a snaffle, a bitless bridle, and a rope halter. Cross ties don't mean that the horse is uncontrollable (most pix of horses in cross ties you see them with one foot cocked and about to go to sleep). And I agree with onetoomany, a horse cantering up to you in a pasture can be very dangerous. All it would take is them misjudging the distance to you and slowing down one stride too late for you to be run over. A horse is a horse and must be treated as just that. Yes, you can be their friends but you must also be the "alpha". Just because you handle your horses a certain way does not give you the right to talk down to everyone else who do things differently.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

smrobs said:


> Hector, just because you do that with your horses doesn't mean that everyone else that does something different is wrong.


I want to know how gentle it was to get the horse on the ground to sit in it's head. I think that is wrong!


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

mls said:


> I want to know how gentle it was to get the horse on the ground to sit in it's head. I think that is wrong!


 Haha, I had forgotten about that part. Your right mls.


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## onetoomany (Dec 10, 2008)

Not to mention I've seen way too many videos of people that have horses that canter up to them and the people are going "Oh how sweet Fluffy is running up to see me." Then ya look at the horse and the body language is anything but sweet and one has to wonder how it is that the person hasn't been run down yet, but ya know it's coming.


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## NewHeart (Dec 10, 2008)

Wow, where I have been. I did not realize that bits, cross-ties and halters are all a thing of the past? Crap...I must really be out of the loop. Why didn't anyone tell me?


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## sandy2u1 (May 7, 2008)

rofl newhart. I just wanted to add that I myself have witnessed the parellis using halters...just check out rfdtv sometime. I just watched linda give a demo of playing at liberty with your horse and she said that anytime your horse is not listening, put the halter back on and work with him that way again. You would not believe how much stuff I have read and watched on tv trying to educate myself on horses and never once have I heard anybody say that halters shouldnt be used. Also, I have asked for a lot of advice on this forum. I feel like that all the advice that has been given me has all been very constructive advice that will get the job done in the most gentle way possible and help build a relationship between me and my horse at the same time.


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## SkylarkandWinnie (Aug 28, 2008)

"I am not Pat Parreli or Monty Roberts, but I was doing their stuff back in New Zealand in
the mid 80's as a teenager. Could ride an ex racehorse through streets with a peice of string."

well lets analyze this, I could probably hop on my friends ex-racer with a piece of string, he is a sweet horse. But this is not safe or smart. You are putting your self and your horse in extreme danger by doing this. 

"I agree with a lot of their stuff, I just haven't made money from it."

Well seeing that (in my opinion) a lot of Monty's stuff is lies, and pat's stuff is just crap I'm somehow not surprised. 

"Instead I have rehabilitated abused horses, and found them good homes."

ok thats good.

"The 2nd worst (breaks my heart the worst) Could not get near him, (touch his head, feet, bad enough rearer to go over. in a week I could catch him right away in a 2 acre paddock, and brush. a week later hooves (clean out) bridle,saddle and ride."

HOW did you do that? was it actually getting him to trust you or was it running him until he was tired and gave in? HUGE difference. 

"Got him on cattlework, and he was magic.
RReared a couple of times, but twice he came over - when I first rode him - and 3 yrs later when we were helping put drought ridden cattle through our town, and he hated staying still."

if he was still going over and rearing you DID NOT "cure" him. rearers are dangerous and from the sound of it you couldn't find the bottom of the problem. Why didn't he like to stand still. Lack of training? pain? you need to analyze that. And if he had been taught to stand quietly in the first place and you had found the problem three years prior to him doing that it most likely would not have happened. 

"Both times I had time to get off the saddle.
I sat on his head. 4 yrs later he has never reared since - even after not being ridden for months!" 

Because you know sitting on their head is soooo natural. How did he react to that one? 

"He is a QTR Horse/ARAB X."

I ride one too, I think your trying to emphasize the arab part. Most of them are pretty good so your point is....

"A lot of you (not all) Seem to have to Curb bits (so vicious),"

in the wrong hands any bit can be bad- used correctly they are great tools. When you know how to ride in one there is NOTHING"visious" about a curb bit. 

"cross ties (can't control your horses?)"

Well I can't be standing there every moment and I don't want my horses running off or towards the road thank you. And before you ask one horse ground ties and the other is learning but if it is available I'm using cross ties or tying for SAFETY REASONS.

"and have to have Halters to catch them?"

Do I need a halter, probably not. Do I use one? yes, it only takes one time for my horse to run into traffic. 

"All you guys/gals are here on problem pages for help, of which I applaud you. But please!!! Treat your horse as a living/thinking and reactive being!"
Yep i treat them like horses. They are not humans. They are ANIMALS with HERD INSTINCTS. they do not think or act like people becuase they are not. 

"They are naturally free beings!"

until we domesticated them...oh a couple THOUSAND years ago?

" Get to know your horse,"

I know both my horses very well thank you. 

" know it doesn't like the hard bit,"

which is not that harsh, and both (well winnie and Sky when she was ridden) would/do go well in what I put them in. Ears forward or listening to me and happy to be out and about. 

" it doesn't like to be constrained so it can't move." neither horse cares about cross ties, I think if they cared I would be a flattened pancake. 

"If I can get a previously untouchable horse to calling him in a 2 acre carrying saddle, and he canters up to me to be brushed etc, saddled without being tied up (and this is from yesterday ridden, or from last ride 6 months), then I think I do know something about Horses."

That does not tell me you know anything about horses. My old horse use to come cantering at me in the paddock...with his ears pinned straight back. Do you know about body language, conformation, how to ride correctly, how to design a feeding plan, how to detect lameness etc? if you can prove that and not be cocky about it like you are right now, you might know something. 

"Please treat your horses as a soul with feelings"

OR you can treat them like a horse, which I think mine have it pretty good compared to others out there. I treat them like animals meaning I don't try to treat them like humans and they are perfectly happy with the way things work.


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## LeahKathleen (Mar 5, 2009)

I think I missed that memo too, NewHeart. I guess we don't need any tack at all, right? We should also probably stop giving cues all together.

How about we let our horses ride us, instead?

On a more serious note, I don't see any problem with halters, bits, or cross-ties. Anything is harsh in the wrong hands, as mentioned. 

Just because you don't use something, or feel the need to use something, it doesn't mean it's wrong to use it. It is wrong to use anything improperly.


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## onetoomany (Dec 10, 2008)

Oh and also- this is not just in the US. Pretty sure halters, bits and crossties are fairly universal. Then again maybe the OP isn't from this universe.


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## manhirwen (Jul 2, 2008)

****!! hmm well I guess that takes care of training my horse. I guess I'll just let him be himself and hope that someday he'll invite me onto his back... and if he decides to kick and rear and stuff I'll just sit on his head. Do you think baking him cookies would help?

P.S.
I think your post was meant to bash the USA... are you a USA hater?


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## LeahKathleen (Mar 5, 2009)

Yeah, I think cookies are a great way to get what you want out of your horse. Just have someone with a tray of cookies walk in front of your horse at all times - then you won't need halters, bits, or cross-ties - he'll just go where the cookies are! -.-


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## NewHeart (Dec 10, 2008)

LeahKathleen said:


> I think I missed that memo too, NewHeart.


Thank God, at least there are a whopping two of us left. We must ban together!


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

hectornikki said:


> in a week I could catch him right away in a 2 acre paddock, and brush.


I'm sorry, but it doesn't sound very impressive.

I got my paint wild and badly abused (to the point she still doesn't like men after over 3 years). After a week I let her loose in 5 acres pasture with other horses and never should CATCH her, because she just came to me right away. My qh, who was completely unhandled when I got her started to come to me to the gate from 20+ acres pasture on 3rd day I owned her. 

EVERYONE has own methods and ways to work/treat the horse whether they go Parelly, Roberts, whatever or just own technique, so it's impossible to say one person/methods does it better over another.


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## Jessabel (Mar 19, 2009)

It sounds like your horses really adore you and you sound like a good horse person, and I respect you for that. But bits and cross ties being somehow cruel? I have to completely disagree. _Any_ bit is cruel when in the wrong hands, but with a mindful rider, they don't cause the horse any discomfort. And EVERYBODY cross ties their horses. If I didn't tie my guys, they'd go nosing around the barn and getting into mischief (particularly raiding the hay pile). 

And needing a halter to catch your horse? How is that bad? How else are you supposed to lead them? Sure, I could throw a lead rope around Victor's neck and he'd walk just fine, but halters are just easier. And safer and more secure. Everybody uses them. And apparently they don't hurt the horses. Amazing. My horses come up to me in the pasture and they nicker when they see me coming. It seems like they're fond of me, despite the nasty halters and cross ties.


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## hectornikki (Mar 21, 2009)

ok,KNEW I would get anti results!
1 - re sitting on my horse's head after he came over on me, I did not acually sit my butt on him, I laid myself over his head, stroked him etc He came to me as untouchable, uncontrolled rearing. That time was the last time he ever reared.
Um - what do you not understand that at the gate and calling the horse to be groomed and saddled up with out being tied up? Simple!! I call him, he canters to me, he stands while I brush him and pick out his hooves, I bridle and saddle him up.
What can you not get?
Sol and I have a special relationship. My son's pony (only new) I do have to tie up to groom and saddle up, but only lead rope to twine on the fence.
Last time I had to use cross ties was with Racehorses worth millions, not everyday horses!
I have worked with Polo Ponies worth thousands, and Hunting Horses. NEVER have we had to cross tie!
Perhaps some people do not have a relationship with thier horses like I do, and want to? It is simple, spend time with your beautiful animal, they have feelings like you do!


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## manhirwen (Jul 2, 2008)

Everything I've EVER read or heard of natural horsemanship says that they don't have the same feelings humans do. That people always think their horses are going to have human feelings when they don't. They have horse feelings, the kind carried by a prey animal that live in heards.


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## trashcore (Feb 22, 2009)

You forgot to mention the fact that you supposedly were the first person to retain Standardbred trotters to canter.

Tying, leading and riding horses with bits is not harsh or cruel in the slightest. 
I do agree harsh bits in the wrong hand is horrible. But used by the right person, no bits are too harsh. Saddlery shops wouldn't sell cruel bits, would they?!

I disagree with most of your views and opinions.


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## hectornikki (Mar 21, 2009)

Jezz, I didn't mean to catch a horse with a halter is bad, I mean't leaving a halter on to catch, as so many accidents can happen!
And yes any bit is bad in a horse's mouth in the wrong hands. I use a snaffle bit, but hardly use on my older fellow, as he reacts to my voice, and shift in the seat. my 3 yr pony however needs teaching.
In the early 1990's Hackamores were banned in New Zealand because of misuse (horses nose bone broken). I bought one of the last ones (sheep wool underneath) but I had already broken in my colt in a bitless bridle (he was gelded later) and I had already trained him commands. He was like my Solli is now. Any bit, I agree, if used wrong detroys a horse. Even a Hackamore! I loved them, my fellow would love it too, but Illegal here too in Aus!


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

I understand your curiosity, not your approach. People who come to forums like this are looking for a couple of things, 1 fellowship with like minded people and 2 help with a problem. When I first started reading horse forums (not just this one) it seemed everyone was having problems with their horses. Not true, its just that this is a place to ask those questions so there seems to be a lot. 
I don't think there is a black and white "everyone" when it comes to what you can do with your horse. I for instance have never crossed tied my horse but I do use a curb bit. My horses will come to me in the pasture and all come running when I whistle. 
Horses aren't lap pets, they are big sometimes dangerous animals. I see some pretty stupid stuff in photos on the net. People grooming horses barefoot or in sandals. I think thats pretty silly behavior, but someone else will think thats perfectly fine. It all comes down to whats right for you and your horse.


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## NewHeart (Dec 10, 2008)

hectornikki said:


> In the early 1990's Hackamores were banned in New Zealand because of misuse (horses nose bone broken)


Can you provide a credible source to back that statement up?


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## hectornikki (Mar 21, 2009)

<P>You can read all you want, but unless you actually do, like I have for 20yrs, Rehabillitating abused horses do not judge!</P>
<P> Yes, I was instrumental in starting the Riding Standardbred Association in New Zealand, spread to Australia to the extent they have Ridden Stb Classes at the biggest show in Australia!</P>
<P> Long story, but started with my handsome STB straight mover, I trained Dressage, getting beaten by a chestnut that dished!  in a show Class.My boy Guy also won that day top class Showjumping against an International Showjumper - my boy was only 14.3hh! Jumping 4ft!</P>
<P> I got the angry re showing, wrote to a NZ horse Mag, went from there!</P>
<P> He could clear 5"6!!</P>
<P>  </P>


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I had a hard time reading your last entry hectronikki.

You have to understand the responses that you are receiving as your original post was quite judgemental. The way that it is written is basically accusing every member of this forum as being abusive and rough with there horses. If you truley have the 20 years of experience that you are stating them you know that there are many, many methods of training and caring for horses that are not abusivive or harsh and they can be used to achieve the same end result.

I am not sure what your overall goal was in your original post. If it was to cause anger and discontent then you gotten what you were looking for. If it was to educate people on a way of horsemanship that you feel is superior or the better way, then you need to rethink your input and resubmit.


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## onetoomany (Dec 10, 2008)

I, like Newheart, would like to see your source regarding the illegality of hackamores in New Zealand. Are you trying to say that they banned them at shows? Seems fairly impractical to make a certain type of bit illegal in an entire country.

I also don't really get your beef with cross ties. I doubt your experience as you seem to have no understanding of what they are.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Vidaloco said:


> When I first started reading horse forums (not just this one) it seemed everyone was having problems with their horses. Not true, its just that this is a place to ask those questions so there seems to be a lot.


Well said, Maureen. 

Doesn't matter how experienced the person is it's ALWAYS something to learn and ask. People are asking for advise or opinions, or just want to share here. And I think it really deserves a respect, when you look for the help or over concerned with something and want to hear the opinions.


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## NewHeart (Dec 10, 2008)

hectornikki said:


> <P>You can read all you want, but unless you actually do, like I have for 20yrs, Rehabillitating abused horses do not judge!</P>
> <P> Yes, I was instrumental in starting the Riding Standardbred Association in New Zealand, spread to Australia to the extent they have Ridden Stb Classes at the biggest show in Australia!</P>
> <P> Long story, but started with my handsome STB straight mover, I trained Dressage, getting beaten by a chestnut that dished!  in a show Class.My boy Guy also won that day top class Showjumping against an International Showjumper - my boy was only 14.3hh! Jumping 4ft!</P>
> <P> I got the angry re showing, wrote to a NZ horse Mag, went from there!</P>
> ...


One, I also had a very difficult time trying to sort out what you were trying to get across. Secondly, I would still like to see a CREDIBLE source to back up your previous statement. 

It's all fine and wonderful that you have a relationship that you can value with your horse, most people on this forum do. However, just because the way you do things with your horse works for you, does not mean that they will work for everyone. Personally, I have a wonderful relationship with my horse that fully involves halters, bits, and cross-ties. My horse is quite happy and what we have works well for us. 

I guess I agree with farmpony if you are coming on here to try and act superior and condescending (which is how you sound whether you intended to or not) you are going to get some back lash. If you sole intent was to educate about your oh so superior methods of training and relationships with your horse, then yes, you perhaps should rethink your OP.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

I lived in NZ for awhile. I am a dual citizen. I have ridden in hackamores over there. Also used halter, cross ties, etc.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Spastic_Dove said:


> I lived in NZ for awhile. I am a dual citizen. I have ridden in hackamores over there. Also used halter, cross ties, etc.


You probably ordered them in US. Bad you... :lol:


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Yeah, I'm a rebel. 
They're banned in various shows along with other bits depending on the class but that goes with anywhere.
Do you mean the New Zealand Standardbred Riding Assoc.?


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

hectornikki said:


> ok,KNEW I would get anti results!
> 1 - re sitting on my horse's head after he came over on me, I did not acually sit my butt on him, I laid myself over his head, stroked him etc He came to me as untouchable, uncontrolled rearing. That time was the last time he ever reared.
> Um - what do you not understand that at the gate and calling the horse to be groomed and saddled up with out being tied up? Simple!! I call him, he canters to me, he stands while I brush him and pick out his hooves, I bridle and saddle him up.
> What can you not get?
> ...


My horses DO come when I call. Yes I can tack them without tying but out of respect for the natural curiousity they have, we keep them safe by tying. A half cinched horse heading off to see what the barn kitten is doing is dangerous for everyone.

Everyday horses are worth millions to many people here. I am sure the majority of this forum currently has or at one time had a horse they would not sell for any amount of money.

Sorry to say most relationships with horse/human are not magic. We are the alpha and the horse respects that. I do believe horses have a thought process and a type of feelings. But we cannot impose our human feelings.


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## hectornikki (Mar 21, 2009)

I am sorry if I have offened a lot of you, I was just curious why a lot of use of Curb bits, and cross ties?
And I didn't sit my butt on the horse, I lay on him and stroked his head, he hasn't reared since! OK???!!!
Xenopheon, the 1st writer of training horses 2/3,000ys ago, said 'a True Horseman never stops learning!"
I put foreward my bit, interested in learning from others! What works for me, and what works for others, I was just curious!


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## onetoomany (Dec 10, 2008)

Again, what is your beef with cross ties!?


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

I still do not see what is wrong with a crosstie? 

As far as the bit issue - it's been said too many times to count - even a piece of string in the wrong hands can do harm.

I fail to see your posts as teaching. More like bashing.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

A true horseman never stops learning -- True. 
What people are upset by is your holier-than-thou attitude that you have/had. 
Like MLS said, it came across as bashing, not a desire to learn. 

Halters should not be left on in the pasture, IMO but I use them to control my horse. 
I will ride a finished horse in a curb bit. I will ride in a hackamore.
I still, like others, fail to see the problem with this and with cross ties.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

I'm late to the party!!










This is very entertaining. 

Do go on...


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Just as a PS - I think this person is very bored at work (slow day?) and is just trying to get under our skin... I couldn't stop giggling reading her posts!!

(Pretty sure Standardbreds can canter on their own... hehehehehe)


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## hectornikki (Mar 21, 2009)

Skylarklandwhinnie - wake up, and stop being so nasty!! 
My horses are well looked after, and we have a bond. My ARAB (yes NOW as you think promoting it!! -I cannot stand Arabs, so overbred, nothing like the original!!) yes, my ARAB /Quarterhorse X was going to be shot if I didnot keep him for life. He has not reared since that last time (if you had bothered to read further on posts) which has been 4 yrs! And he canters to me with his ears pricked thank you!! 
And I would advise you to read further posts, and not judge me (or anyone else ) by one post - and where you are so wrong!!


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## hectornikki (Mar 21, 2009)

Um no, not a slow day at work. Just know from experience that when STB's wether Trotters or Pacers, have to be taught to canter, Pacers to trot then Canter, readjust muscle.
If you don't know that, then butt out!


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## onetoomany (Dec 10, 2008)

I'm still waiting for your answer about those evil, horse abusing cross ties.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Yes, they have to be taught to canter....I've done it and so have a bunch of other people on this board. 
Each of us on here care for our horses and try to achieve the best bond we can with them. Does that mean we have to be friends and cuddle? No. It means we want a respectful, happy horse. 
I have retrained horses that rear, grew up on a standardbred track, and retrained rescues (do the rescuing myself due to finances, but offered volunteer work instead). Many other people on here have done the same or more.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)




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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

JustDressageIt said:


>




 I just can't resist!


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## hectornikki (Mar 21, 2009)

I mean with teaching on command riding to Canter re STB's


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## onetoomany (Dec 10, 2008)

JustDressageIt said:


>


 
Haha!

I'm just really curious about the cross ties. I mean, I've already thrown my halters and bits into the garbage and invested in a ball of string but I should probably go to the next step and rip down all the cross ties at the barn!


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

What?
I give a STB the command to canter...he canters.


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## onetoomany (Dec 10, 2008)

C'mon Spastic, it's a speshul command.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

I'm too flabbergasted to add anything useful to this thread, everything I have wanted to say has been covered by someone else.
Thought I'd come in here with some humor instead. 

To the OP - it honestly sounds like you came in here to "educate" us on being so closed-minded, but in doing so you have labeled yourself as such.. just something to think about.


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## jxclass19 (Feb 1, 2009)

I did read all the OP posted and most of what they say is very confusing and makes no sense. They don't sound like an experienced adult a lot of it is contradicting and quiet honestly they sound like a little kid. 

Also Mechanical Hacks are illegal in the USA to but that depends on the shows rules. 

What is wrong with Cross ties. My mare ground ties just fine but if I am working around the barn I will tie her or cross tie her. Just so she doesn't wonder off.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Mechanical Hacks are illegal in a SHOW
Not just illegal to use like she made it sound like.


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## NewHeart (Dec 10, 2008)

onetoomany said:


> Haha!
> 
> I'm just really curious about the cross ties. I mean, I've already thrown my halters and bits into the garbage and invested in a ball of string but I should probably go to the next step and rip down all the cross ties at the barn!


What? You haven't already? Talk about behind in the times. Cross ties are so last season. Personally, I am working telepathy with my horse, getting ahead of the times.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

onetoomany said:


> I'm just really curious about the cross ties.


If the horse pulls back the cross tie ring may be pulled out of post and hit a horse in head.


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## jxclass19 (Feb 1, 2009)

onetoomany said:


> Haha!
> 
> I'm just really curious about the cross ties. I mean, I've already thrown my halters and bits into the garbage and invested in a ball of string but I should probably go to the next step and rip down all the cross ties at the barn!


Oh man I should probably get rid of mine too. What type of string should I get? Thread maybe?


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Cause they can't run free like horses are supposed to?


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## jxclass19 (Feb 1, 2009)

NewHeart said:


> What? You haven't already? Talk about behind in the times. Cross ties are so last season. Personally, I am working telepathy with my horse, getting ahead of the times.


I feel like a loser now! Why didn't I think of that!


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

kitten_Val said:


> If the horse pulls back the cross tie ring may be pulled out of post and hit a horse in head.


Only in crossties?

Any type of tying can be dangerous if the horse is not correctly taught or if the handler does not defuse the situation quick enough if the horse is startled by something.


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## NewHeart (Dec 10, 2008)

I think she said in OP that if you use cross ties you are unable to control your horse.


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## NewHeart (Dec 10, 2008)

jxclass19 said:


> I feel like a loser now! Why didn't I think of that!


Always a trend setter.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Couple points:
- Getting a STB to canter isn't some ground-breaking, earth-shattering feat, sorry
- Crossties are not evil (to those who were attacked by crossties when they were younger and they have a repressed memory that presents itself now as an aversion to crossties, fear not - there is help.)
- Bits are not evil 
- Sitting on a horse's head does not cure rearing.... although... maybe there is a cross similarity... sit=butt=rear=rearing? (hahaha)


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## onetoomany (Dec 10, 2008)

mls said:


> Any type of tying can be dangerous if the horse is not correctly taught or if the handler does not defuse the situation quick enough if the horse is startled by something.


Took the words out of my mouth.

Thanks cluing me in NewHeart. I'm totally going to meditate with my horse today.


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## Curly_Horse_CMT (Jun 8, 2008)

hectornikki said:


> I am sorry if I have offened a lot of you, I was just curious why a lot of use of Curb bits, and cross ties?
> And I didn't sit my butt on the horse, I lay on him and stroked his head, he hasn't reared since! OK???!!!
> Xenopheon, the 1st writer of training horses 2/3,000ys ago, said 'a True Horseman never stops learning!"
> I put foreward my bit, interested in learning from others! What works for me, and what works for others, I was just curious!


 
Why do you like it when your horse canters up to you? Why do you like to ride your horses with just a string? Why do you like to lay on your horse and stroke his head? We all do things differently. Curb bits are used in western horses as an aid to help between horse and rider. If used correctly, it can have amazing results. If not, we all know what can happen. You cant expect us to be negative and anti againt you when you get so defensive. Dont expect us to not say anything when you bash us for what we see as normal and everyday....


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

JustDressageIt said:


> Couple points:
> 
> - Crossties are not evil (to those who were attacked by crossties when they were younger and they have a repressed memory that presents itself now as an aversion to crossties, fear not - there is help.)



I am not alone! 


But apparently cross ties are okay if your horse is worth millions of dollars...??


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

*wipes tear from eye* my Freudian psych prof would be so proud of me...


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

bahah <3


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## jxclass19 (Feb 1, 2009)

So cause my horse was only $750 I can't use cross ties? Am I going to jail for this??


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## hectornikki (Mar 21, 2009)

How many times do I need to apologise!! AGAIN I was Curious!
Down here we just tie to the fence. I left NZ 14yrs ago - maybe they have let Hackamores back in again.
I am sorry if I came across judgemental, I was just trying to understand!! I still will do with my horses as I do tho.
Can you please stop shooting me?


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## jxclass19 (Feb 1, 2009)

There's a gun! Im outa here!


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Spastic_Dove said:


> I am not alone!
> 
> 
> But apparently cross ties are okay if your horse is worth millions of dollars...??


Breathe, SD, it will be okay. Your fear can be overcome if you trust in the crossties, here are some simple exercises:
1) Grab fiberglass "licorice stick (TM)" Walk confidently up to the crossties.
2) Gently stroke crossties with licorice stick to show your dominance. Try some approach and retreat.
3) When you feel ready, go ahead and touch the crosstie - gently now!
4) Get more confident with the crosstie! Discover what a useful thing it actually is! Try out the quick release lever! See how sturdy they are! 
In no time you will be swinging from the crossties singing my praises. 

Okay, obviously I'm in a very silly mood... perhaps we should get back on topic, whatever that was... ?


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Please remember the conscientious ettiquette policy and lets stay on track with this one.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

"licorice stick" ... now I'm hungry.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Sowwy, Farmpony...










(guess who found a smilie site?)


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## Curly_Horse_CMT (Jun 8, 2008)

haha love the smilies JDI


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## hectornikki (Mar 21, 2009)

Ok, all the inteleegent people that understood where I came from have not bothered to answer as alll that is left is posts that have no constructive input, just shameless bagging. - Who said I have nothing to do? It is now 4am and time to give my asthmatic son his Nebuliser! I am filling in time so I am there to give my son his medication!
To those who were constructive to my badly written post - THANK YOU. as for the rest of you , you know where to go!!


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

mls said:


> Only in crossties?


Of course!


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

Let me loan you this hectornikki.
It didn't work for me very well in my youth and so I loan it out now.


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## onetoomany (Dec 10, 2008)

hectornikki- I am concerned for your son. Nebs are not to be used as a controller for asthma. I have had fairly bad asthma since I was three and have only used nebs as an absolute last ditch emergency measure. So unless he has an asthma attack at 4 AM every morning perhaps you should look into real controller medications. Actually that advice applies even if he is having an asthma attack every day at 4 AM. Sorry for the off topic, but just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.


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## 1dog3cats17rodents (Dec 7, 2007)

Seriously, why would you wake your son at 4 AM for a nebulizer?


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

hectornikki said:


> Ok, all the inteleegent people that understood where I came from have not bothered to answer as alll that is left is posts that have no constructive input, just shameless bagging. - Who said I have nothing to do? It is now 4am and time to give my asthmatic son his Nebuliser! I am filling in time so I am there to give my son his medication!
> To those who were constructive to my badly written post - THANK YOU. as for the rest of you , you know where to go!!


 
To answer your question on the curb bit...

curb bits are commonly used in Western style riding to encourage the horse to lower its head and flex at the poll.

How it Works: This bit is a leverage bit. The rider’s signal is felt in the mouth, over the horse’s poll, on the chin through the curb strap or chain. 
Western Pleasure riders use very little reign contact and do most of their signals w/ their seat and leg rather then using their hands to steer. so the "harsh" bit is actually very mild as a rider general just "shakes" the reigns just a tiny bit to get the horse to drop it's head.


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## hectornikki (Mar 21, 2009)

Marecare - what an ironic name!
You don't care at all! My son is on the Neb right now, and you are making fun!
I think only a few are really interested in constructive discussion - but if most of you are resorting to personal attacks.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Hectornikki...most of us are on the defense because of how you came across, you apologized so fine. 
Now my question to you that other people have also asked is why do you think cross ties are bad? 
Why is a curb bit bad (if being used correctly)?


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

alright guys. stay on track. As for the Nebulizer, my neighbor went through this with her daughter so I know for a fact that on occasion, depending on the severity of a medical issue Doctors will prescribe a treatment plan using a Nebulizer on a scheduled basis. 

This is not a medical forum, it's a horse forum and I think we've fallen off the boat on this thread. Please get it back on track so that we aren't forced to close it.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

JDI i just choked on my soup a little


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## hectornikki (Mar 21, 2009)

he had a bad cold, so neb every 4 hrs util he over it (2 days hopefully) Dr orders - we live miles away from care/hospital OK!! it only happens every 3 mnths! Stop Judging me!!


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

To answer the OP's questions:

1) Curb bits are usually used on (and should only be used on) finished horses; western riders neck-rein and so only rarely touch the bit with the reins. They mostly ride with their legs and seat. The extreme "harshness" of the bit (as compared to a snaffle) also helps show that their horse is "finished" and that they don't need to use the bit at all; their horse is fine with having a [more] severe bit in their mouth.

2) Crossties are a brilliant invention. They allow the handler to work all around the horse. When a horse is tied to a fence or stall, there is always a possibility that the horse could move over and squish a person between it and the fence/stall.
Tying a horse is a measure of safety; even the calmest, most well-trained, bombproof pony can get spooked and take off - when horses are scared, they won't stop for anything, not a fence, not traffic, nothing... so tying them reduces the risk that they might take off and ultimately be hurt. Horses are herd animals - if one takes off, most other horses will want to run from the "enemy" too - imagine if 5, 10 horses weren't tied to be tacked up? You'd have a whole herd take off - saddles, bridles, whatever flapping in the wind, creating more of a scare!

3) As for halters left on in the paddocks - I agree with you, it can be very dangerous; I don't practice it myself. My horse meets me at the gate - he calmly walks up though, he doesn't canter over to me (thank goodness!) However, some people feel the need to leave halters on their horses for safety reasons, perhaps the horse is a new rescue, or is still being taught to respect humans and be easily caught - in that case, as long as the halter is designed to breakaway then I don't have a problem with it.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

hectornikki, I think you are getting very upset and perhaps you should take a step back and realize that we are also getting a little frustrated as well  We are a very friendly community.


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## onetoomany (Dec 10, 2008)

Very well said on both those posts JDI.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

JustDressageIt said:


> Tying a horse is a measure of safety; even the calmest, most well-trained, bombproof pony can get spooked and take off - when horses are scared, they won't stop for anything, not a fence, not traffic, nothing...


I was joking, of course, about the cross tie hitting a horse. Lol! 

But I've seen number of times the spooked horse behaves actually worse on cross ties rather than being tied to the post. Yes, we can talk about teaching them that and all, but I do talk about SPOOK (which can always be a case even for the most quiet one). Also considering the fact cross-tie attached to the rings, which are much easier to take off the wall than moving the hitching post. Is it cross tie indeed safer at this point? And NO, I'm not talking about not using cross ties. I used them too in old barn. I'm just curious about possibility of accident. Any facts? Any statistics?


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## Curly_Horse_CMT (Jun 8, 2008)

hectornikki said:


> Ok, all the inteleegent people that understood where I came from have not bothered to answer as alll that is left is posts that have no constructive input, just shameless bagging. - Who said I have nothing to do? It is now 4am and time to give my asthmatic son his Nebuliser! I am filling in time so I am there to give my son his medication!
> To those who were constructive to my badly written post - THANK YOU. as for the rest of you , you know where to go!!


 
As far as I am concerned you seem to be blind to alot of what we are saying. Most of us have answered your questions at some point or another, and you just seem to want to stay on the boat of the defensive.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

I don't know any statistics, but I know our cross ties are usually attached by bailing twine so if the horse does pull back, it will break. I'm sure there is someway they could still hurt themselves, but this helps them from getting hurt by struggling.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

JustDressageIt said:


> As for halters left on in the paddocks - I agree with you, it can be very dangerous; I don't practice it myself. My horse meets me at the gate - he calmly walks up though, he doesn't canter over to me (thank goodness!) However, some people feel the need to leave halters on their horses for safety reasons, perhaps the horse is a new rescue, or is still being taught to respect humans and be easily caught - in that case, as long as the halter is designed to breakaway then I don't have a problem with it.


I just want to add to that some barns (at least around me) DO require to have halters on at all times, so it'll be easier for them to catch the horse when they have to move it in/out the barn. I don't keep halters on mine, and I negotiated it at the old barn, but I can see the point.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Spastic_Dove said:


> I don't know any statistics, but I know our cross ties are usually attached by bailing twine so if the horse does pull back, it will break. I'm sure there is someway they could still hurt themselves, but this helps them from getting hurt by struggling.


Interesting... I'm actually using that "release tie" ring (whatever it's called), so if the horse pulls it just give her some release. But I assume cross ties are not really good for those horses with tie issues.


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## onetoomany (Dec 10, 2008)

I don't know of any facts/statistics on the subject but the way I view it is if they are pulling hard enough and long enough to dislodge a cross-tie- they're pulling hard enough to do damage on a post. There's one at my barn where the worst that has happened in the crossie is that she's just broken the tie (twine- not nylon or bungee) vs. the hitching post where the horse completely bent the metal bar. I also know of a horse that pulled so badly while tied to anything period that he would rip up hitching posts and bolt dragging the post behind him. Either way- if it's going to go bad, it'll be bad no matter what they're tied to. Just my take on it.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Yeah, these break completely if theres too much pull to them. I know they have actual manufactured ones that are quick release, but we just kind of put these together. 

I don't keep halters on my horses either though I know people who do. Especially with Diesel he tends to get picked on and it gives me piece of mind knowing thats one less thing for him to get caught up in.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

KV, I did giggle at your crosstie hitting a horse comment - cute!

Some horses are calmer standing tied to a stall or fence. Others are calmer on crossties.
Dancer, my old mare, was terrible with tying, but great on crossties, but she's had incidents with both:
One night I was grooming her to be ridden, and this young girl, a beginner, started to lead her horse past Dancer. This horse was tall to begin with, but also had on a western saddle. This girl didn't think to unclip Dancer on one side, and led the tall horse under instead. The saddle got caught up on the horn, and pulled Dancer forwards, freaking her out. It was very very easy to remedy the situation; we simply activated the emergency release. 

Nine times out of ten, a tied horse is safer than one that's not tied.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

hectornikki said:


> Marecare - what an ironic name!
> You don't care at all! My son is on the Neb right now, and you are making fun!
> I think only a few are really interested in constructive discussion - but if most of you are resorting to personal attacks.


 

I am more than happy to enter into some constructive discussion about your topics hectornikki,but we really need a better starting point.

You seem to have some very large misconceptions that several folks have pointed out here already.
I am very happy that you have had some success with the NH techniques that you have used with your horses.
Blanket statements just don't work with horses and training.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

onetoomany said:


> I don't know of any facts/statistics on the subject but the way I view it is if they are pulling hard enough and long enough to dislodge a cross-tie- they're pulling hard enough to do damage on a post. There's one at my barn where the worst that has happened in the crossie is that she's just broken the tie (twine- not nylon or bungee) vs. the hitching post where the horse completely bent the metal bar. I also know of a horse that pulled so badly while tied to anything period that he would rip up hitching posts and bolt dragging the post behind him. Either way- if it's going to go bad, it'll be bad no matter what they're tied to. Just my take on it.


Well... My concern here is since it's much easier to break for cross tie the smart horse can keep doing it intentionally. Can it?

My qh as long as she learned she can break though the door guard just started doing it every single time just push with her upper body, "crack" and it's gone so she can walk in hallway. I tried to put all different rings, but she was just way too strong. I ended up removing them completely.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Just to add to my last thought - would we have avoided that if she hadn't been crosstied? Yes. 
However, I would have had a very scared loose horse whenever a plastic bag rustled in the wind.


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## 1dog3cats17rodents (Dec 7, 2007)

hectornikki said:


> he had a bad cold, so neb every 4 hrs util he over it (2 days hopefully) Dr orders - we live miles away from care/hospital OK!! it only happens every 3 mnths! Stop Judging me!!


 
That makes sense, sorry I really was curious. I babysit for a boy who sometimes needs it, I just had never heard of anyone needing it at specific times.



As for cross ties, I can certainly control my horse, but for his safety, my safety, and others safety I use cross ties. A horse is not a human, they think like a horse and can not always be expected to understand everything. I don't want him sticking his nose in anything that could bite him or poison him, nor do I want him to spook and get hurt in the aisle


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## onetoomany (Dec 10, 2008)

Most horses have a 'reason' for doing something. Yes, there is the occassional horse that just seems to like trouble but usually there is a 'reason' behind it (I hesitate on the word reason but it's the best I can come up with at the moment). Case in point- the chronic puller whose owner rushes to it's side and coos and fusses after it is done pulling, in essence rewarding the horse for pulling. So the horse keep pulling and keeps getting rewarded for it. 

I've never personally had a puller, my horses generally hit pressure and move away from it and not into it. I'd also rather have cross-ties that slip loose than that the ones that don't as some horses hit that pressure and panic and just pull more. Better to have a cross tie slip loose than have a horse fighting against it until something more serious happens.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

my thoughts on the cross-ties issue:

I have them in my barn. They are VERY convenient. But for the danger issue and the injury possibility. I've heard of it happenening twice...

One horse had a fit, blew a gasket and the crosstie broke (it was improperly attached). As Spastic Dove I think it was stated, they should be attached to the aisle with bailing twine so that they can break. They should aslo have quick release snaps. anyhow, the tie broke and hit a horse on the head killing it instantly. (fractured the skull). (My farrier told me about this. He was there)

At my barn we were changing Beauty's cast back when she severed her tendons, she had a half cast and when you would remove it she would hop around on three legs doing this kung-fu thing. I think it was the blood preasure throbbing feelign you get when you take a bandage off a sprain. Anway, she spun herself sideways and had the things so tight I quick released them and they hit her in the butt. She was fine though.

For the most part cross-ties make tacking up and groom much safer for both the horse and rider. But you can have a bad incident ANYTIME you tie a horse. And in my opinion, it's an important thing to be able to do (tie a horse).


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## xkatex (Oct 7, 2007)

I must say this topic has made my day. Special congrats to Newheart, MLS, JDI, onetoomany, Spastic Dove, jxclass19 and others. You all put a grin on my face lol.

I think the bottom line is, hector, you came acrossed very abrasive and offensive, therefore causing a chain reaction. In all my time being here I have never had a problem with any of the members being rude or condesending. Yet again, i've never posted an "attack-like" topic.

Anything I would want to say has already been said, multiple times, so i'll leave it at that. Perhaps next time you post, re-read it a couple times and put it in a less offensive manner. No one here sits around a computer waiting to bite anyones head off, their not as dangerous as them cross ties you know :lol:


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

onetoomany said:


> Most horses have a 'reason' for doing something. Yes, there is the occassional horse that just seems to like trouble but usually there is a 'reason' behind it (I hesitate on the word reason but it's the best I can come up with at the moment). Case in point- the chronic puller whose owner rushes to it's side and coos and fusses after it is done pulling, in essence rewarding the horse for pulling. So the horse keep pulling and keeps getting rewarded for it.
> 
> I've never personally had a puller, my horses generally hit pressure and move away from it and not into it. I'd also rather have cross-ties that slip loose than that the ones that don't as some horses hit that pressure and panic and just pull more. Better to have a cross tie slip loose than have a horse fighting against it until something more serious happens.


Oh yes, I completely agree with you. The one I have wasn't "chronic", she was just tied on rope 24/7 with people pulling on her and all for the whole month before I got her, so almost every time I tied her to the post/cross tie/name it she just went bananas. So I got the release ring and the problem was solved as long as she realized she can pull and get free if she's scared so she just stands now. I didn't try cross ties on her yet, but may be she'll be OK.


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## LeahKathleen (Mar 5, 2009)

I seem to have missed a lot since last night.

Honestly, as has been said, we all reacted to your post the way we did to show how you came across to us - condescending and holier-than-thou.

Everybody does things differently. What works, works.

The end.

Try not to come around and tell us that art we've all been trying to perfect since we could say the word "horse" is all wrong.

We -are- a friendly community... unless provoked. Then, apparently, we get mean. Heh.

Anyway, the point was that your methods clearly don't seem to be our methods - and that's ok. No need for bashing on either end really.

I extend my apologies for earlier comments.


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## NewHeart (Dec 10, 2008)

As far as I am concerned with cross ties, they are just as dangerous as anything else in the horse world. I am sure there are plenty of us on here (myself included) that can think of freak accidents that have happened from a seemingly harmless situation. After all, they are called accidents for a reason. Personally, if my horse has a bad run in with cross ties or anything else for that matter I am going to deal with it and move on. Does that mean I am forever not going to use them? Of course not. Risks are everywhere with owning horses, when things happen, take them in stride and move forward.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Like I said, a horse can hurt himself with anything. Good post, NewHeart


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## SkylarkandWinnie (Aug 28, 2008)

hectornikki said:


> Skylarklandwhinnie - wake up, and stop being so nasty!!
> My horses are well looked after, and we have a bond. My ARAB (yes NOW as you think promoting it!! -I cannot stand Arabs, so overbred, nothing like the original!!) yes, my ARAB /Quarterhorse X was going to be shot if I didnot keep him for life. He has not reared since that last time (if you had bothered to read further on posts) which has been 4 yrs! And he canters to me with his ears pricked thank you!!
> And I would advise you to read further posts, and not judge me (or anyone else ) by one post - and where you are so wrong!!


Think what you will but I was giving my opinion on what you said. take it or leave it. 

there you go bashing arabs. They are not fire breathing horses with attitudes. They are regular horses that have been stereotyped becuase people have come across a couple nasty ones. Well I've come across a handful of nasty quarter horses...does that make them evil horses? no. Would I buy a quarter horse? probably not, Morgans are more my type of horse. But if I was looking for another horse and I was looking at two, an ill tempered morgan and a sweet quarter horse. Hands down I would get the quarter horse. 

And also I'm pretty sure your judging me by one post too. Think before you type please.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

xkatex said:


> I must say this topic has made my day. Special congrats to Newheart, MLS, JDI, onetoomany, Spastic Dove, jxclass19 and others. You all put a grin on my face lol.


SWEET! Can I get that beer now?! :wink:


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

mls said:


> SWEET! Can I get that beer now?! :wink:


 
Bahahaha I have been waiting to use this one:


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

OMG JDI. You are having way too much fun with those smilies. I have SmileyCentral on my computer though so I can't really say much. I like these better.


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## Tazmanian Devil (Oct 11, 2008)

hectornikki said:


> How many times do I need to apologise!! AGAIN I was Curious!
> Down here we just tie to the fence. I left NZ 14yrs ago - maybe they have let Hackamores back in again.
> I am sorry if I came across judgemental, I was just trying to understand!! I still will do with my horses as I do tho.
> Can you please stop shooting me?


Taking you at face value...

What you have to realize is the many horse tools and training techniques are context sensitive.

If you are competing in certain types of western shows, you may be limited to certain types of bits. You may love a hack or 0-ring snaffle, but that might be not allowed in an AQHA show, for example. There are many other practical reasons for using certain bits, but "show rules" is a reason that is black-and-white.

Cross-ties? Not going to work in the middle of a field or open country. That is why old time cowboys taught their horses to ground tie. They had nowhere to cross-tie.

Have a pasture and run-in shed barn? Tying to a fence or post is more practical.

In a busy center-aisle barn with tens or even one hundred horses stabled? Cross tie is the only solution that makes sense. People walking by, hay being moved around. Maybe a grain cart. Horse stalls on both sides... you cant tie to one side where the horses would be nose to nose.

People often forget why, but things like cross-ties or curb bits or other things were originally invented to address particular situations or illicit specific behaviors. Curb bits were not created as a "better brake" and cross-ties were not created as a "method to control crazy horses." 

Ideas have survived the test of time usually because they work well for their intended purpose, if not a better one.

When one lives in the Sahara desert, it is easy to think the umbrella company in London makes no sense. Better to learn what the other equipment is for, and how it is being (correctly) used. Even if it doesn't apply to ones own needs, it expands ones horizons to see different ways to approach various situations.


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## LeahKathleen (Mar 5, 2009)

Well said, Tazmanian.


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## Trissacar (Apr 19, 2009)

I'm just at a loss for words. I'll tell you when I find em.


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## Trissacar (Apr 19, 2009)

Ok found some. I'd rather have crossties where they can move then micro manage every single step they make. Doing western stuff like that with my horse would give her ulcers. Or She'd grab you by the shoulder and throw you against the wall.
So My point is the horses are happy so don't knock it if they are happy.


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## Trissacar (Apr 19, 2009)

hectornikki said:


> ok,KNEW I would get anti results!
> 1 - re sitting on my horse's head after he came over on me, I did not acually sit my butt on him, I laid myself over his head, stroked him etc He came to me as untouchable, uncontrolled rearing. That time was the last time he ever reared.
> Um - what do you not understand that at the gate and calling the horse to be groomed and saddled up with out being tied up? Simple!! I call him, he canters to me, he stands while I brush him and pick out his hooves, I bridle and saddle him up.
> What can you not get?
> ...


My horse gallops to me. Were not saying that you don't love your horses but when you put on your holier then thou robe you are going to get people angry. You didn't have to bad mouth people who use halters,curbs,crossties, ect. So you shouldn't be surprised that people defended themselves against your clearly derogatory words.


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## Trissacar (Apr 19, 2009)

NewHeart said:


> Wow, where I have been. I did not realize that bits, cross-ties and halters are all a thing of the past? Crap...I must really be out of the loop. Why didn't anyone tell me?


Cuz none of use knew.:wink::lol:


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## Trissacar (Apr 19, 2009)

Tazmanian Devil said:


> Taking you at face value...
> 
> What you have to realize is the many horse tools and training techniques are context sensitive.
> 
> ...


Very eloquent words Taz.


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## Trissacar (Apr 19, 2009)

manhirwen said:


> ****!! hmm well I guess that takes care of training my horse. I guess I'll just let him be himself and hope that someday he'll invite me onto his back... and if he decides to kick and rear and stuff I'll just sit on his head. Do you think baking him cookies would help?
> 
> P.S.
> I think your post was meant to bash the USA... are you a USA hater?


OMG too funny!:lol::-o


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## Trissacar (Apr 19, 2009)

JustDressageIt said:


> Just as a PS - I think this person is very bored at work (slow day?) and is just trying to get under our skin... I couldn't stop giggling reading her posts!!
> 
> (Pretty sure Standardbreds can canter on their own... hehehehehe)


:wink::lol:Heehee. Me too.


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## Trissacar (Apr 19, 2009)

hectornikki said:


> Um no, not a slow day at work. Just know from experience that when STB's wether Trotters or Pacers, have to be taught to canter, Pacers to trot then Canter, readjust muscle.
> If you don't know that, then butt out!


I haven't done it but I've seen it done and most people say its pretty easy.........


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## Trissacar (Apr 19, 2009)

hectornikki said:


> I mean with teaching on command riding to Canter re STB's


Yes still not that hard.:roll:


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## Trissacar (Apr 19, 2009)

jxclass19 said:


> I did read all the OP posted and most of what they say is very confusing and makes no sense. They don't sound like an experienced adult a lot of it is contradicting and quiet honestly they sound like a little kid.
> 
> Also Mechanical Hacks are illegal in the USA to but that depends on the shows rules.
> 
> What is wrong with Cross ties. My mare ground ties just fine but if I am working around the barn I will tie her or cross tie her. Just so she doesn't wonder off.


Very well said you go girl!


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## LeahKathleen (Mar 5, 2009)

Hey Trissacar - please stop posting one after another like that. Thanks.


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## Trissacar (Apr 19, 2009)

jxclass19 said:


> So cause my horse was only $750 I can't use cross ties? Am I going to jail for this??


Well my horse was 2,000 but is now worth about 38,000. So even if its not millions is THAT acceptable???


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## Trissacar (Apr 19, 2009)

JustDressageIt said:


> Breathe, SD, it will be okay. Your fear can be overcome if you trust in the crossties, here are some simple exercises:
> 1) Grab fiberglass "licorice stick (TM)" Walk confidently up to the crossties.
> 2) Gently stroke crossties with licorice stick to show your dominance. Try some approach and retreat.
> 3) When you feel ready, go ahead and touch the crosstie - gently now!
> ...


Oh my:lol:


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## Trissacar (Apr 19, 2009)

hectornikki said:


> Ok, all the inteleegent people that understood where I came from have not bothered to answer as alll that is left is posts that have no constructive input, just shameless bagging. - Who said I have nothing to do? It is now 4am and time to give my asthmatic son his Nebuliser! I am filling in time so I am there to give my son his medication!
> To those who were constructive to my badly written post - THANK YOU. as for the rest of you , you know where to go!!


I find it ironic that he spelled intelligent wrong.


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## LeahKathleen (Mar 5, 2009)

*Please stop posting so many times in a row.*

Thank you.


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## Trissacar (Apr 19, 2009)

LeahKathleen said:


> *Please stop posting so many times in a row.*
> 
> Thank you.


Didn't see it cuz I was still stuck on the other pages. I think its appropriate since the thread is so long. And I wish this site would post responses underneath the quote.
I don't really understand any logic behind your request but I will try to do it anyways.


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## LeahKathleen (Mar 5, 2009)

I, like most people on this site, receive an email each time a post is made on a thread we've posted on.

Double-posting is generally discouraged. But thanks for stopping.


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## xilikeggs0 (Sep 14, 2008)

NewHeart said:


> Can you provide a credible source to back that statement up?


 Considering they're widely available for sale in New Zealand, I'm willing to bet that the OP is a troll.
Hackamore for sale - TradeMe.co.nz - New Zealand
Chevalier Western leather Hackamore - hack for sale - TradeMe.co.nz - New Zealand
Bosal/Hackamore for sale - TradeMe.co.nz - New Zealand


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## appylover31803 (Sep 18, 2007)

just as an FYI, you can multi quote different people. Its that MQ right next to Quote.


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## Aliboo (Jun 20, 2008)

Well for the most part I see halters and cross ties as means of security and control. its not like they are cruel, and personally, ive never known any different


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## xkatex (Oct 7, 2007)

Like said soooo many times before, anything in the wrong hands can be cruel. I've seen people beat their horses with a sweat scraper. Does that mean we should be forbidden and looked down upon for using sweat scrapers just cause someone else is using it the wrong way? I think not. Its quite ridiculous actually. Also just because crossties and halters "can" be dangerous, whether a horse manages to flip themselves in the crossties or gets their halter caught, its absolutely... stupid.... to tell people they are not good horse people because they use such things. Should we start a thread complaining that since we used a saddle and Mr. (or Mrs.) Horsey didnt like it and went bonkers and hurt themselves, that we shouldnt use a saddle?! Nope, definatly stupid. Sorry I'm dont my rant there was more I wanted to say but it slipped my mind lol:lol:


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## manhirwen (Jul 2, 2008)

After reading this thread... again... I'm wondering what the general thought on riding crops and spurs are, and I mean used correctly, not by some fool hearted kid looking to 'control' an animal.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

manhirwen said:


> After reading this thread... again... I'm wondering what the general thought on riding crops and spurs are, and I mean used correctly, not by some fool hearted kid looking to 'control' an animal.


An extension of your natural aids 

I have no problems with riders using either, as long as they know how to use them correctly (ask, tell, demand; as well as with spurs to keep them off the sides until needed)


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

JustDressageIt said:


> An extension of your natural aids
> 
> I have no problems with riders using either, as long as they know how to use them correctly (ask, tell, demand; as well as with spurs to keep them off the sides until needed)


 
...What she said....:wink:


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

I think the OP has left the building :shock::-(


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Vidaloco said:


> I think the OP has left the building :shock::-(


Actually I think they have a new login.


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