# Bay or Smokey black mare



## Mireya (Jul 10, 2015)

Hey everyone. 
I was wondering if anyone could tell me what color my mare is. In the winter she turns more brown and in the summer she turns more black. The underside of her belly and the insides of her legs stay a lighter color. She is not stalled at all. Please excuse the November picture, I just got her that month.

The sire is a friesian which is obviously black and the dam is a sooty buckskin.

November Spring








March Summer








July Winter
















:runpony:


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Not smokey black. Do you have a winter picture of her head that isn't in shadow? I am thinking that she is brown, if her muzzle is light colored in the winter, she is definitely brown. Browns love seasonal color changes and can look very dark in one season and then be imitating a bay another season ;-)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Red Gate Farm (Aug 28, 2011)

Smokey Black looks like a black horse. For some reason people think it looks faded or lighter colored, but it's simply a black horse with one cream gene. The black gene overrides the cream gene which is why the horse appears black.

You find out it's smokey black when you get it DNA tested, or the horse produces an offspring with the cream gene :wink:

So no, your horse isn't smokey black. I'd agree with SunnyDrago that it's brown, owing to those lighter patches on the flanks and nostrils.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

I see a brown horse xD


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

I would guess brown as well, unless additional pictures suggested otherwise ;-)

Often, "sooty buckskins" are actually brown based buckskin, so very easy to see where the brown may have come from!


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## kewpalace (Jul 17, 2013)

She looks like my friend's AQHA which DNA'd as "Smoky Black". But since AQHA does not have that color designation, he is registered as black.


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## Mireya (Jul 10, 2015)

Thank you very much. Ill put up 2 more pictures for you. I can see why you say she is a brown horse.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

This horse in my reply is a smokey black (palomino sire/black dam and DNA tested). He is black twice a year. Once when his winter coat is shed and his new spring coat is revealed and once when his winter coat comes in and covers his summer coat. The black lasts only a few days before the fade and the inside of his ears are always cream. You can tell or at least suspect many smokey black from black as it is way more than typical sun fade on a fading black and in my observation there is cream in the ears year round. The horse pictured by the OP in my opinion is brown. The tells are the muzzle and soft points.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

^Just wanted to say what a gorgeous color that is <3 /OffTopic


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## Mireya (Jul 10, 2015)

Hi Everyone. as promised, here are the two pictures.. I love the color of that horse.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Mireya said:


> Hi Everyone. as promised, here are the two pictures.. I love the color of that horse.


Brown for certain, telltale cinnamon coloring around the muzzle and flank ;-)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Yep, brown. Thanks. When he is in what we call full fade he is honey colored with the black points and cream inside of his ears. We have used uv screen on his mane and tail, mostly tail as well as wrapping to keep the ends from fading and it makes the contrast almost unbelievable.


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

Very pretty!! I agree about the brown, I would say she is brown.


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## crofthaven1785 (Sep 19, 2015)

I see bay maybe with sooty gene.


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## Chessie (Mar 13, 2012)

That's a big bad brown. I love their noses.


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## Mireya (Jul 10, 2015)

Hahaha, thank you guys so much for all the help.:loveshower: Its nice to know what color she is. I have been searching the internet for the difference between bay and brown and its all mixed up, but at least you could help me.

This is a bit off topic but is the creme gene always passed on? Like in the case where my mares dam is a sooty buckskin? Could she have a single creme gene or not?
:runpony:


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Mireya said:


> Hahaha, thank you guys so much for all the help.:loveshower: Its nice to know what color she is. I have been searching the internet for the difference between bay and brown and its all mixed up, but at least you could help me.
> 
> This is a bit off topic but is the creme gene always passed on? Like in the case where my mares dam is a sooty buckskin? Could she have a single creme gene or not?
> :runpony:


A buckskin has only 1 cream gene and a 50% chance to pass it on. A cremello or perlino have 2 cream genes and will pass 1 cream to 100% of their offspring ;-)


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## DuckDodgers (May 28, 2013)

Looks brown to me!


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## Mireya (Jul 10, 2015)

Hahaha, okay. Thanx for clearing that up for me. I don't have much knowledge about color and its very confusing to me. Someday Ill also know more. Thanx to all you guys.
:runpony:


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Mireya said:


> Hahaha, okay. Thanx for clearing that up for me. I don't have much knowledge about color and its very confusing to me. Someday Ill also know more. Thanx to all you guys.
> :runpony:


Ask as many questions as you desire, we all have room for greater education and understanding. When it comes to cream, it only hides on black if 1 copy of cream is present, but cream will dilute black extensively if there are two cream genes. If a horse who is brown or bay based and has 1 cream gene, the cream shows making them buckskin/smoky brown. If they have 2 cream genes, it really shows in coat color and a bay or brown based horse with two cream genes is called a perlino.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Sunny, not to hijack, but do you have any examples of a double cream black? I'm not even sure what that would be called? I'm sure I've seen it before, but I can't remember for the life of me. :lol:


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Sunny, not to hijack, but do you have any examples of a double cream black? I'm not even sure what that would be called? I'm sure I've seen it before, but I can't remember for the life of me. :lol:


Smokey cream ;-)
Very rare among the homozgous creams but I have also seen pictures of them in the past. A bit darker than the perlino


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

I knew I'd heard it before! Thank you! I shall now go in search on the interwebz for peectures!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mireya (Jul 10, 2015)

Hahaha, thanx a lot for all your help on the colors and all. You are all great. Would it matter if my vet put her on as bay in her passport? As far as I know, they only put on the basic colors.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

SunnyDraco said:


> Smokey cream ;-)
> Very rare among the homozgous creams but I have also seen pictures of them in the past. A bit darker than the perlino


I thought a perlino was two cream genes acting on a black coat. Hmm, now I'm confused.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

These are winter and early summer shots of a mare that I rescued. I would consider her brown. The early summer shot is a bad one (she was rolling in the mud) and she was in a transition of coat. She actually looses the mealyness on her muzzle and it's black in the summer and she looks buckskin. When she's transitioning from winter to summer coat (and she's clean) it gets a really pretty dappling for about three weeks.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

LoriF said:


> I thought a perlino was two cream genes acting on a black coat. Hmm, now I'm confused.


Perlino is two creams acting on a BAY coat, so you're close. ;-)

Perlinos usually look similar to cremellos in color, except they will have slightly darker, more orangey-hued hard points and mane and tail.

As for the mare you posted, she looks brown.

OP, a lot of people don't know the difference between, or don't particularly care that there's a difference between, bay and brown. 75% of the year, you'd swear my best friend's QH is a bay, but then winter comes and she gets a mealy muzzle and shows her true color, so to speak. My best friend still calls her bay.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Mireya said:


> Hahaha, thank you guys so much for all the help.:loveshower: Its nice to know what color she is. I have been searching the internet for the difference between bay and brown and its all mixed up, but at least you could help me.
> 
> This is a bit off topic but is the creme gene always passed on? Like in the case where my mares dam is a sooty buckskin? _Could she have a single creme gene or not?_
> :runpony:


If you are asking if your mare could be hiding a cream gene than no, you would see it (making her a buckskin and she is not buckskin)


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