# WA Outrageous - discuss.



## Juna (Apr 4, 2010)

I don't know much about color genetics but we breed Arabs and have had a purebred Arab foal born with blue eyes...so it is possible. And I've seen many with either one or a partial blue eye.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Juna said:


> I don't know much about color genetics but we breed Arabs and have had a purebred Arab foal born with blue eyes...so it is possible. And I've seen many with either one or a partial blue eye.


Pictures?


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## Zeke (Jun 27, 2010)

This is slightly off topic but I had a full QH mare that had only a blaze but no other white and two blue eyes. If there were no paints in her pedigree in her first 3 generations for sure and I'm fairly sure there wasn't one in the first five even, what could've caused her blue eyes?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Juna (Apr 4, 2010)

Hmmm...afraid I don't have any. We bred him several years ago and sold him as a weanling. 

He had pretty close to a bald face marking...we always figured that was why he came out with blue eyes. 
We had another mare a few years ago with half of a blue eye - she too had a lot of white on her face.

BTW- we named him Sinatra. 

The bad thing about blue eyed Arabs is you can't show them in halter classes...technically blue eyes aren't "allowed".


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

My first horse's mother had a blue eye, and she was a purebred Arabian. She also had a belly spot, long white stockings, and a huge blaze.

My gelding out of her was also purebred, as she had been bred to an Arabian stallion. The stallion was dark bay with no markings, and Alfie inherited none of his mother's flashiness except for a small blaze. No blue eyes and no body spots.

The Arabian stallion Hi Fashion Imperial was responsible for a lot of the sabino markings and blue eyes we saw back in the day, and was Alfie's dam's sire. 

When I was young and first into horses, Arabians with body spots, a lot of white, and blue eyes weren't considered show horse material. They were considered conformation faults, and you never saw a horse in the show ring with those things.

Once Khemosabi came along and took the Arabian world by storm none of those things, _except_ blue eyes, were considered conformation faults any longer. It took blue eyes longer to be acceptable, and even today you'll find a degree of prejudice about them at the higher show levels.

I personally find blue eyes in horses to be creepy, although I know a lot of people like them.


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## Eolith (Sep 30, 2007)

Speed Racer said:


> I personally find blue eyes in horses to be creepy, although I know a lot of people like them.


Lol, I'm the same way. There's something so piercing and eerie to me about blue eyes. There's a horse at our barn with one blue eye and I always feel like he's examining my soul when that blue eye is faced towards me. He's really sweet though and has a pretty brown eye too.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Zeke said:


> This is slightly off topic but I had a full QH mare that had only a blaze but no other white and two blue eyes. If there were no paints in her pedigree in her first 3 generations for sure and I'm fairly sure there wasn't one in the first five even, what could've caused her blue eyes?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The splash gene that causes blue eyes has been well known to hide itself for multiple generations. They believe (not fact) that heterozygous splash horses tend to display much less white, ergo a solid horse with blue eyes and minimal face and leg white while in it's homozygous form you get the full body splashed white pinto coloring.

So now we have the question - can a form of sabino cause blue eyes, or do we have to admit and realize that our Arabians are actually carrying sabino AND splashed white? And why did it take so long for either to manifest physically on a regular basis?


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

ROFL, I don't know why I said NO records of other blue eyed Arabs. I meant no well documented cases.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Speed Racer said:


> I personally find blue eyes in horses to be creepy, although I know a lot of people like them.


Same here. Especially coupled with the pinky face for some horses. Although I met 1 exception - dark sorrel with darker blue eyes. Not sure how that came out (I've never seen such dark blue before or after), but it was totally awesome.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> So now we have the question - can a form of sabino cause blue eyes, or do we have to admit and realize that our Arabians are actually carrying sabino AND splashed white? And why did it take so long for either to manifest physically on a regular basis?


I for one have no problem if it's discovered Arabians carry both sabino and splash white.

The reason they took so long to manifest themselves, is because of the Arabian breeders. Those things were purposely _avoided_ and bred out of Arabians in the U.S. and Canada for a very long time. 

The big name breeders, trainers, and judges didn't _want_ those markings, so they were considered conformation faults and bred out. Plus, they started the myth that well bred Arabians just simply didn't _have_ those markings.

As I said, Khemosabi paved the way for making those markings acceptable. He was such a stunning example of the Arabian breed, that people forgot those markings were considered unacceptable.

Khemo was also extremely prepotent, and stamped his look and temperament on not only his get, but his grandget. I loved that horse. I even got to meet him once. He truly was a king, and knew it.


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## Zeke (Jun 27, 2010)

Thanks Macabre
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

Speed Racer said:


> Khemo was also extremely prepotent, and stamped his look and temperament on not only his get, but his grandget. I loved that horse. I even got to meet him once. He truly was a king, and knew it.


Sorry, but I have to crash the thread. I worked with an Arab gelding at a therapy barn named Bubba. He was either Khemosabi's son or grandson. He looked just like him, it was ridiculous.

Sorry this is so big, freaking photobucket sucks. =|










Showing off his perfect temperament. Born to be a therapy horse, Bubba was. =]


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I think Khemosabi tricked them a bit though - in his day, people didn't even realize that it was sabino causing the markings on Drafts, so I highly doubt they realized the gene he was carrying until it was "too late"! Obviously some would have, but without the popularity of the internet hitting quite yet and the lack of genetic study being common knowledge, you can't help but wonder if he'd have been given his chance if people "knew".

Maybe that's why so many Arabs were grey - breed in a trait to hide the fault! :lol:


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Actually Macabre, people were well aware of Khemo's 'faults', even way back when.

I remember having conversations with various Arabian people about him, and all of them were aware that he has the sabino gene. 

It greatly impacted his original price, which is how the Husbands got him for practically nothing as a youngster. Those high white stockings and white muzzle were considered 'unfortunate' when he was born.

He had such a presence and was so correct conformationally, that people purposely overlooked his 'faults'. Plus, his owners marketed the heck out of him, which didn't hurt! :lol:

Once he was picked up by a syndicate, it was nothing but gold for him from there on out.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Wasn't he bred and born with the Husband's?


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

I thought they bought him. I could be wrong. I don't know Khemo's whole history, especially his baby years. 

If not Khemo, then who the heck am I thinking of that was sold for a low, low price? Gah! Old lady brain farts! Maybe it was Raffles? Raffles was a gray, though.

Bah, I sometimes get the older horses mixed up. My apologies if I'm wrong.

I do know when Khemo was a youngster that people were worried about his 'excessive' white. Which seems laughable now, because I'd hardly call his coloration in any way extreme.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

You were right, Macabre. The Husbands bred him. My apologies for my stupid today!


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Yeah, history does indicate that he was always owned by the Husband's. I've never found anything online that ever described him as sabino, only surprise when he started siring sabino foals. However, I also haven't really spoken to anyone, I'm just going based on research and the old magazines I used to read.

Raffles did sell for peanuts, and it was because Lady Wentworth thought he was infertile. Apparently there was quite a commotion when he got to the USA and started siring like mad - Lady Wentworth demanded him back, and Selby obviously went "In your dreams!" He was sold for the price of a pet, as a suitable horse for his kid's to ride due to his size. Best bargain he ever swung I bet!


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

I'm not surprised you couldn't find anything in the written history about Khemo being sabino. I'm sure that's not something anyone wanted advertised! :lol:

It was pretty well known among Arabian people, though. Just not advertised to the masses.

Considering Amerigo was a gray and Jurneeka a bay with very little white, I'm sure the Husbands were quite surprised when that little bay boy with high whites and a large blaze with a white muzzle popped out! 

It could have been either or both parents who carried the sabino/splash, since the Bedouins who bred the original Arabians didn't take issue with a lot of white or body spots. In a lot of the old paintings and photos you can find plenty of Arabians with these characteristics.

It was just when the breed was brought to the U.S. that the myth was started about how purebred, _well bred_ Arabians didn't carry the gene.

Yes, it was Raffles of whom I was thinking. Yup, sold for a pittance as a 'kid's pony'. Selby sure got the best end of that deal!


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## inaclick (Jun 6, 2010)

What attitude do the Arabian breeders have - as in, from Arab countries - ?

I would be curious to know of their own attitude towards horses such as WA outrageous and even Khemosabi. Do they accept it, do they reject this gene?
I know there are still breeders in Saudi Arabia, Dubai, etc, who are very strict on conserving the breed's traits but I never saw any statement about coloring 

Only things I have seen were some mumbles about the Arabian halter type. I remember some interview with Ali Al-Ameri in which he says "They breed these horses with beautiful faces and weak legs. That's not how our horses should be. They don't run on their faces"

P.S. Khemo*sabi* - *Sabi*no probably has nothing to do with it, it just crossed my mind.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

You can actually see it blatantly sneaking up his sire side, as Mesaoud is blatantly sabino/splash, and ironically, if you look up an old article, he was sold to Blunt Stud almost for that exact purpose as Ali Pasha Sherif didn't like his high white. It would seem, being as influential as he is, he could almost be deemed the beginning point for sabino/splash in Arabians as it seems to come consistantly through the Crabbet lines more then any other:










He also passed it on to his daughter Feluka and although HER daughter Ferda did not display physically (low leg white), her son Ferseyn was grey and could easily have hid it all the way through Amerigo to Khemosabi!

You know, in all my years of researching Arabians, the sabino thing was rather new and I never went looking. Considering how many Arabians have Mesaoud in their pedigree, it seems completely likely it originated with him in recent North America!


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

UPDATE -

I am exploring Khemosabi's entire pedigree through All Breed (as it has photos of most his ancestors) and even in the early 1900's every single time I find a horse on his dam OR sire side that could have sabino/splash - Mesaoud is a direct ancestor!


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Very interesting, Macabre. Looks like you found the 'smoking gun'. 

Mesaoud was a lovely horse, and I personally _like_ a lot of chrome. 

Just not bald faces and blue eyes. Blech!


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

UPDATE - I found it past Mesaoud, but in the same line! I think it was Zobeyni that started it back in 1844! He's grey and the only picture is a painting, but he's the common ancestor.

I found a sibling of Mesaoud through Zobeyni, named Mahruss II:










It appears his dam had it as well (Bint Bint Nura):










AND his great granddam (daughter of Zobeyni, Bint Zura):










Bint Nura and Mesaoud were half-siblings, both sired by Aziz (grandson of Zobeyni).

ROFL, I'm sorry, I'm having fun! :lol:


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

All of this is fascinating, and only reaffirms my belief that Arabians have _always_ had the sabino/splash genes.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Haha, thanks so much for pushing me to explore this path! :lol: It's very enlightening, and definitely confirms how far we've come from high whites to horses like WA Outrageous!


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

I just never understood why the U.S. Arabian breeders thought sabino was a dirty word, and had to be denied at all costs.

Not in MY horses! Nuh uh!!! Never! Only crappy, ill bred Arabians have THAT! 

Yeah, not so much...... :rofl:


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## Eastowest (Mar 26, 2009)

Ooops, double post.


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## Eastowest (Mar 26, 2009)

_>>>>> As far as I know, we have NO other record of blue eyed Arabs._


HAAP Blue Lace, purebred Arabian mare--
HAAP Blue Lace - Bay Sabino Arabian mare























She has been used in at least 3 purebred pinto breeding programs, and is now in France. She has produced pinto marked offspring, including a filly with a blue eye like hers. That filly I believe is now a broodmare owned by one of Khartoon Khlassic's owners.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Sorry to jump in - I just want to ask, do you guys think thebn that Wildey has sabino/splash? he has a high sock on one hind and a big blaze - You can see his sock a bit in this pic:


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## grayshell38 (Mar 9, 2009)

This one is very interesting: Rfr The Iceman Arabian

http://www.weberranch.net/Iceman.html


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

So I did a little diggin in Latte and Wildeys pedigree's and they both trace back to Mesaoud on both sides. Interesting.


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## grayshell38 (Mar 9, 2009)

Deja is a carrier of the sabino gene by way of her sire who was a well expressed sabino. Mana actually has sabino ticking all over him now as well as his high white leg.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

wild_spot said:


> So I did a little diggin in Latte and Wildeys pedigree's and they both trace back to Mesaoud on both sides. Interesting.


From the photo, it's definite possibility. It's tricky with horses like him because we've seen how minimally sabino/splash can display, so he definitely has indications but it's obviously impossible to say without genetic testing.

*greryshell38 - *On his dam side, he has a line back to Mesaoud.  If you follow his lower dam line to Negatiw, his sire Naseem was blatantly splash/sabino with the grey:


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

^ That, is a nice horse.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Isn't he though? I absolutely ADORE the Crabbet Arabians - they may not have been "classicially" pretty, but they made a name for themselves as the best and most diverse athletes in the Arabian breed.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

I think he is way prettier than lots of 'classically' pretty Arabs. That is exactly my kind of horse. Fine but strong, well sprung neck, noble head... *Drool*


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

^

Hehe, I know, Zierra came out a LOT more refined then I like. In considering breeding her, I'll only consider much thicker built Arabs with that "sport" factor. There's a Polish stud around here who's siring the local endurance winners, and he's built much the way I like:


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## grayshell38 (Mar 9, 2009)

> greryshell38 - On his dam side, he has a line back to Mesaoud. If you follow his lower dam line to Negatiw, his sire Naseem was blatantly splash/sabino with the grey


I was too lazy to look through the dam line.  That is a fine looking boy, though. 

Hooowee!! That Polish stud you posted is hawt! I could stand to see a teeny pit more of a dip in his face, but the body is great.


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## kmacdougall (Feb 12, 2010)

You know, MM, if you get bored, I'd love for your educated self (or SR) to go through my half-Arab's pedigree and tell me some bits and pieces! 
I own an Arab and I love him dearly but I'm not as breed-knowledgable as you are.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> Isn't he though? I absolutely ADORE the Crabbet Arabians - they may not have been "classicially" pretty, but they made a name for themselves as the best and most diverse athletes in the Arabian breed.


My once in a lifetime was Crabbet bred. Absolutely gorgeous horse, but he didn't have a pronounced dish either. Typical Crabbet head. 

He was Serafix/Bask bred, so never had a chance at a 'real' dish! :lol:

He had lovely conformation with straight, clean legs, good bone, and the heart of a lion. Beautiful, brave and loyal. What else could anyone ever want in a horse? 

I will mourn him until I die, and my other horses pale in comparison. I try not to compare them to him, because it's not fair to them.

Kmac, if you give us your horse's pedigree, we can probably tell you something about his lineage and the horses in it.


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## draftrider (Mar 31, 2010)

Did ya all hear about that lady over in Wisconsin last year that had 60+ Crabbet bred Arabs? She called rescue groups after she ran out of hay in January, and the horses had been starving for a month! She said she'd give us all 72 hours to come get the horses. One rescue went and brought hay over and put it out for the horses. She had 20+ stallions all in with about 40 mares, yearlings and 2 yr olds. We all mobilized and loaded our trailers and got there the next day, and she had sold them all to the slaughter truck. We drove 400 miles, and she had sold them within 36 hours of people feeding them, and getting mobilized. There was a lot of tears shed that day.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Dear God draft, that's a horrible story. How awful for those poor horses and all you people willing to help out.


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## CheyAut (Nov 26, 2008)

Splash IS in Arabians


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## kmacdougall (Feb 12, 2010)

Speed Racer said:


> Kmac, if you give us your horse's pedigree, we can probably tell you something about his lineage and the horses in it.


Ff Money Maker Arabian

I don't think he's anything special (to Arab breeders) but he's certainly more then special to me!


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

kmacdougall said:


> Ff Money Maker Arabian
> 
> I don't think he's anything special (to Arab breeders) but he's certainly more then special to me!


As long as he has someone who loves him, that's all the special he needs.

My little bay demon in horse form was bred out the wazoo. Some of his siblings went on to multiple Nationals wins, but since he preferred trail riding over the show ring, nobody really knew or cared that he existed except for me. 

I don't think he minded that he never won a Reserve Championship at the Arabian Nationals. :wink:

Your boy has some impressive horses in his lineage. Nabor, Amurath Sahib, Negatiw, Geym and Ferzon were all well known and well bred horses.

He also has Raffles in his pedigree, which isn't surprising. Raffles was _the_ horse to breed to in his time.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Well, I hate to break it to you, but your horse has pretty much the standard stereotypical Crabbet pedigree you see more in "pet Arabs". The champions in his pedigree are far enough back, you find them in EVERY Arabian pedigree - there were only so many of them in the beginning, so every Arabian traces back to a hearty mix of old champions. Of course he does have that upper sire line back to Polish and Russian lines, but it's so far back, it's also pretty standard (mine are Crabbet and Egyptian as a distance mix).

The Crabbet bloodlines were amazing, but they've been so diluted now by the more "pure" horses that people find so aristocratic that they're all but dead except in pet Arabs. People want a look that's the polar opposite of the Crabbet horses these days and it's a crying shame - my love for the breed won't follow these monstrosity's they insist on breeding now.

Your boy DID have that nice line to the sabino/splash though, so I don't know what his other breed is, but that white face marking screams some form of pinto lurking.


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## kmacdougall (Feb 12, 2010)

Speed Racer said:


> As long as he has someone who loves him, that's all the special he needs.
> 
> My little bay demon in horse form was bred out the wazoo. Some of his siblings went on to multiple Nationals wins, but since he preferred trail riding over the show ring, nobody really knew or cared that he existed except for me.
> 
> ...


Thank you for checking! Cody actually is a National Champion. He is a National Champion in (Eating Peppermints for) _Pleasure, Hack_(ing up a Yawn) and (Refusing to Get on the Horse) _Trail_(er). He is kind of the product of a somewhat BYB, but he got reaaaally lucky. 



MacabreMikolaj said:


> Well, I hate to break it to you, but your horse has pretty much the standard stereotypical Crabbet pedigree you see more in "pet Arabs". The champions in his pedigree are far enough back, you find them in EVERY Arabian pedigree - there were only so many of them in the beginning, so every Arabian traces back to a hearty mix of old champions. Of course he does have that upper sire line back to Polish and Russian lines, but it's so far back, it's also pretty standard (mine are Crabbet and Egyptian as a distance mix).
> 
> The Crabbet bloodlines were amazing, but they've been so diluted now by the more "pure" horses that people find so aristocratic that they're all but dead except in pet Arabs. People want a look that's the polar opposite of the Crabbet horses these days and it's a crying shame - my love for the breed won't follow these monstrosity's they insist on breeding now.
> 
> Your boy DID have that nice line to the sabino/splash though, so I don't know what his other breed is, but that white face marking screams some form of pinto lurking.


That's what I figured, he has a nice loud white face. Actually I was at a horse show a few years ago and his breeders were there and they gave me an envelope of pictures! I'll show you his mom and dad. 

Dad (sorry it's so small, I can make it bigger if needed)









Dad (closer face shot)









Mom (2 days before the birth of Cody lol)









A picture of him & I taken a few weeks ago. The colors have been enhanced but his coloring hasn't been altered in any way.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Oooo, what breed was mom? His sire blatantly has sabino/splash, those big beautiful high whites.

It's funny, when most people think Half-Arab, they never think the pinto coloring came from the ARAB side! :lol:

He's gorgeous either way, and I love his sire, makes me long for the good old Crabbet days, he's a fantastic representation of what athletic and USEABLE animals those lines produced.

And you know what? I think horses like him are 10x prettier then any National Champion Halter Arab today!


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## kmacdougall (Feb 12, 2010)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> Oooo, what breed was mom? His sire blatantly has sabino/splash, those big beautiful high whites.
> 
> It's funny, when most people think Half-Arab, they never think the pinto coloring came from the ARAB side! :lol:
> 
> ...


His mama was a Welsh, whether registered or not I'll never know, but according to my riding instructor who taught on her many many moons ago, she would jump anything, including the 4' arena fence if you didn't keep your head up!
Apparently his dad was a very, VERY usable horse. Threw decent babies, and was easy to throw in the trailer for a day of trail rides or hacks.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I'd kill to be able to breed to something like his stud these days. We definitely have useable horses, but I'll just always have a fondness for those OLD classic Crabbet lines that are vanishing so quickly. :-(


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