# Bay or Brownskin?



## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

I have always thought my Mom-in-law's gelding was a dark bay. His mother is a bay and his father was a black and white tobiano paint. I have noticed horses on the color forum that look very similar to him being called a brownskin. He is a pretty shimmery gold on his belly and there is a black that fades from his back. He does have black legs. He turns such a dark brown in the winter that he almost looks black, and his nose turns brown. I attached two pics (altho the winter pic is about 2years old), and the summer coat (is actually his spring coat, and it's not a very good picture, his belly turns lighter than that...). What do you think?


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

He is brown  No cream there


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

Chiilaa said:


> He is brown  No cream there


So not a bay? Ir no cream, so he is a bay? What exactly is a brownskin? I'm getting confused the more I think about it! :lol:


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Brownskin is a brown horse with one cream gene. Buckskin is a bay horse with one cream gene.

Brown and bay are variations of the same gene, so they share similar traits. Brown will tend to be more seasonal - darker in winter, bay mimicking in summer. Brown has paler "soft" points - the muzzle, behind the eyes, inside the legs, in the flank, the elbow, and often under the tail.


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

HI CHIILAA!!! Yup, that's him! Ok, another stupid question for you. What does a brown horse look like? without the cream gene?


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

He's my gelding (Buck's) half brother. Same sire, born same summer, different momma's. I'm wondering again if Buck has a cream gene. I need to send in his hair to that genetics thing....


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

The horse in the first post is a brown horse without a cream gene. Brown buckskin looks more like this horse:


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

Ah!!! I got confused! Ok, HE is brown! And if he had a creme gene, he would be a brownskin. OK! I get it! Really cool! Thanks Chiilaa!


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

Chiilaa said:


> The horse in the first post is a brown horse without a cream gene. Brown buckskin looks more like this horse:


Isn't that a sooty buckskin?


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

No. It used to be thought of as a sooty buckskin, but since the discovery that brown _*is *_a separate gene a lot of buckskins that were thought to be sooty are actually brown based and "black horses with pangare" are actually browns.


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

Really cool. I told my mother in law, and she didnt seem as interested as me, lol... I really like this stuff and learning. I am wondering about his mom. I think she might be a brown too. We have always thought she was a bay too... The last pic I posted just because itt's pretty, lol...


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

And my horse Buck. The first horse posted (Tollo) is his half brother. They have the same daddy (sorry, habit, lol... sire!). So father is a black and white tobiano paint, and Buck's mother was a chestnut with rabicano. He has white ticking in his barrel, which makes him most likely red based, right? So (as long as Buck is a red bay like I thought).... The sire has a bay gene, which for some odd reason isnt being dominent with this mare when they foal? She had one more foal from him (she was already pregnant when we got her) that was a chestnut paint. So which one is more likely to be passing the bay gene? Buck is a bay, And if it's the daddy, then why isnt tollo a bay? I thought bay was dominant? Again I posted the last one bc I think his coloring is pretty, lol.....


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

NdAppy said:


> No. It used to be thought of as a sooty buckskin, but since the discovery that brown _*is *_a separate gene a lot of buckskins that were thought to be sooty are actually brown based and "black horses with pangare" are actually browns.


So, I realize that brown used to be mistaken for a lot of different things, but I'm curious about that particular horse as it doesn't look like other brown buckskins I've seen (e.g. the OP's post in this thread: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-colors-genetics/buckskin-138435/#post1692517)

Chiilaa, do you know that horse personally?


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

verona1016 said:


> So, I realize that brown used to be mistaken for a lot of different things, but I'm curious about that particular horse as it doesn't look like other brown buckskins I've seen (e.g. the OP's post in this thread: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-colors-genetics/buckskin-138435/#post1692517)
> 
> Chiilaa, do you know that horse personally?


He's just darker.. There are varying shades of every color. He looks the same as the one you've linked to, just darker. It's only seeing bright orange sorrels and then seeing a liver chestnut and saying, "The one doesn't look like the ones I've seen."

For everyone to see, this is what a sooty buckskin would look like:


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

He's pretty... 

Poseidn! U know ur color and genetics, and you didnt reply! LOL I think you helped me confirm that buck is a light red bay with countershading (I thought he was a dark buckskin or dun in a post long ago). Buck's mother was a chestnut (which means she obviously wouldnt have a bay gene (I think), and so that leaves the sir (the black and white paint) to be the one carrying the bay gene. And if that is so, why wasnt it passed to either of foals (the original gelding in question, and his full brother, who is a chestnut and red ONLY- no points AT ALL!!! paint)


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Wheatermay said:


> He's pretty...
> 
> Poseidn! U know ur color and genetics, and you didnt reply! LOL I think you helped me confirm that buck is a light red bay with countershading (I thought he was a dark buckskin or dun in a post long ago). Buck's mother was a chestnut (which means she obviously wouldnt have a bay gene (I think), and so that leaves the sir (the black and white paint) to be the one carrying the bay gene. And if that is so, why wasnt it passed to either of foals (the original gelding in question, and his full brother, who is a chestnut and red ONLY- no points AT ALL!!! paint)


It is entirely possible for Buck's dam to carry agouti (the bay gene). Agouti restricts black to certain points, which is the difference between a black and a bay. However, chestnut horses are red based, not black based, so there is no black to restrict. They can carry agouti, but there is no way to know without genetic testing. 

It is impossible for a black horse to have agouti because the black is not restricted. Bay is black + agouti A (the At mutation of agouti is brown). Agouti is a dominant gene, meaning if a horse carries it, it WILL show it. 

I started answering before I finished reading this entirely. Based on what you said about his brother, their dam is heterozygous for agouti, meaning she will pass it on 50% of the time. And also that their sire is heterozygous for black if he has a red foal because black is dominant. A homozygous black horse will always produce a black-based foal. Sorrel/chestnut horses are homozygous for red, which is why crossing a chestnut with a chestnut will always result in chestnut.


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

Man I had to read that a couple times, lol. I get it finally tho! Thanks you very much!  I have a hard time remembering all of it, but I do love it! Ur a genius! Different momma's tho. Same sire!

Ok I understand Buck...

So what is the gene's for brown? Does it have a black base? Mom is a brown right?


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

The first headshot of the bay (Buck) has the paint gelding I was speaking about. That is Tollo' s full brother.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Wheatermay said:


> Man I had to read that a couple times, lol. I get it finally tho! Thanks you very much!  I have a hard time remembering all of it, but I do love it! Ur a genius! Different momma's tho. Same sire!
> 
> Ok I understand Buck...
> 
> So what is the gene's for brown? Does it have a black base? Mom is a brown right?


Brown is caused by agouti also. There are three mutations of agouti: A, At, and A+. A = bay. At = Brown. A+ = wild bay, which isn't nearly as common and hasn't been isolated yet so there is no test for it. Wild bay restricts the black to the pasterns and the rest of the body is generally lighter than the average bay. I've never seen a wild bay, personally, but I did see a "Wild buckskin" once. Typical-looking buckskin, but the black on his legs only went up to his fetlocks. BUT I digress. 

All three are black based, as they are all some variation of Black + Agouti. There are only two base colors, red and black. Any other color is a modification of either of those two colors.


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

Awesome! Thanks! Very cool stuff! I can understand you far better than anything online, lol... I get everything now!


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

I enjoy reading information at Morgan Colors- Your Information Station for Morgan Color Genetics and Color History, mostly because they have a plethora of pictures and I'm a more visual learner.


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

Me too, lol, that's why I like pictures on here, lol...


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