# Help Needed! Critique Our Flatwork!



## xJumperx (Feb 19, 2012)

Hello 

Today I am not requesting help for Cowboy, but instead Diamond.
First of all, please ignore the tack choices. Yes, I am riding in a barrel saddle. At the moment, it is the only saddle we have that fits her properly. My Close-Contact only fits my OTTB, Cowboy. Please critique as if I were riding her HUS (Hunter Under Saddle).

I am essentially posting because I know there is something wrong, but I can't pinpoint it. This is Diamond at her WORST. This is as naughty and bad as she gets. When we trailer her anywhere, she is an angel. The head-tossing, trying to hollow out and run, prancey-ness, is all eliminated when I trailer her out to ride in any arena. The issues you see here only happen at home, where I don't have the option of a sand arena.

That said, I would like to make it so that she behaved EVERYWHERE. I'm just at a loss to how to get her to do that. I'm not trying to have the most beautiful equitation in this video, I'm trying to get her to ride like a sane horse :lol: Though if my equitation is inhibiting her, please let me know.

Without further ado! Thanks in advance! Remember, critique as if she was riding in Hunters.






Diamond is for sale/lease if anyone would be interested.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

YOu must consider what is different between the two locations, one where she rides like this, and the other , where you say she rides "fine". what are you experienceing about the other location that is different and good.

here, she seems to be worried about the contact with the bit. she is rushing and wanting to hollow out. could be for a lot of reasons, including saddle fit. I would have liked to see how she'd go in that video in just a walk, and in a trot where you gave her more rein.


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## BugZapper89 (Jun 30, 2014)

The rider is hanging/balancing off the poor horses mouth. Every step this horse takes, it is punished with a bang. I would send the rider back to the lesson barn and be revisiting basic hand position 101 along with proper balance. The horse needs a new rider before going any further.


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## CandyCanes (Jul 1, 2013)

BugZapper, be nice 
Anyway, I was honestly expecting much worse. I can see she wants to work into a contact, but something is catching her. She is tense and hollow, and does not have the ability to step under herself and track up as a result. I recommend going into rising trot to free up her back.
She is worried and not concentrating and I would like to know how her teeth are doing. Bring your hands up, and closer together. They are too low and wide. I also recommend getting a small whip or stick and holding it between your thumb and the top of your first finger in each hand as you ride, joining your hands together. This forces your hands to work as a pair and if one hand goes lower or higher than the other, you will feel it.


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## Starcailer (Aug 22, 2014)

I ride dressage but, I think it helps every discipline so. . .

I think you definitely should post, because the horse seems a bit uncomfortable with the sitting trot, and though you arent bouncing, the horse's saddle may not a be a great fit and she might be trying to protect her back.

Watch your hands, while I get you are trying to supple the horse, they get a bit too busy at the trot. Make them quieter, and give a bit of rein. You have too much contact imo, certainly for a horse who is fighting you. You guys are just pulling against eachother. Give your reins a bit, and play softly with your finger tips on that inside rein, apply pressure on the inside leg and ask for a nice, quiet flex on the circle. Use your leg and seat aids more than your hands. This horse seems to dislike you beingin her mouth. 

I notice when you change direction your new inside rein is very, very, strong. There is no need to keep getting noisy with your inside rein if the horse is ignoring you, will just make her mouth hard. 

Her canter is a bit out of control the second way, I would be trying to half halt to slow it down, you can do that with your seat first and then add the outside rein part of the halfhalt, theres no reason to run around with her head in the air. That isnt fun!

Both of you need to relax as well! You seem like you almost have a death grip on those reins


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

But the OP says that there are no issues when she trailers out somewhere. Other than the fact if being physically in a different location, ther must be some reason for that. I agree that the riders grip is too firm, too downward pulling and she is leaning forward, too. All things that can contribute to the horses problem . But why the difference in behavior if the riding and tack is the same in both locations?


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## Starcailer (Aug 22, 2014)

Perhaps in a new place, the horse is able to focus on other things and keep her mind busy, when at home she can think about how uncomfortable she is?

Im not sure, something just doesnt sit well with me with her tack.


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## CandyCanes (Jul 1, 2013)

tinyliny said:


> But the OP says that there are no issues when she trailers out somewhere. Other than the fact if being physically in a different location, ther must be some reason for that. I agree that the riders grip is too firm, too downward pulling and she is leaning forward, too. All things that can contribute to the horses problem . But why the difference in behavior if the riding and tack is the same in both locations?


You don't know the rider rides the same in other locations. She may ride more sympathetically, with less rein contact and higher hands elsewhere. I know I can sometimes, quite by accident, ride differently depending on where I am!
_Posted via Mobile Device

_


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## frlsgirl (Aug 6, 2013)

I recognize the giraffe like posture and hollowed back; that was my horse a few months ago. 

Here is what's worked for me:

Got her teeth floated
Got a simple thick snaffle bit
If she ducks below, I push forward, if she comes above I supple
If she's resistant, I do loops and circles to soften her up
To teach her to lift her back, I've been lunging her in vienna reins

Very cute horse!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

CandyCanes said:


> You don't know the rider rides the same in other locations. She may ride more sympathetically, with less rein contact and higher hands elsewhere. I know I can sometimes, quite by accident, ride differently depending on where I am!
> _Posted via Mobile Device
> 
> _



true. I guess I am asking the OP what IS different. the one thing that can come to mind is that a horse will be more alert and outwardly focussed in a new situation, so maybe the mare is ignoring her discomfort becuase she is looking out and is engaged in her new surroundings, so disregards any issue with saddle or bit/contact.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

You are really wise to ask this and show us Diamond at her worst. It doesn't matter what makes her misbehave at home, the remedy is the same.
Diamond has plenty of forward, but she gapes her mouth and fights the bit the whole time on both reins. She needs to learn to flex, how to half halt and how to reliably halt. You are holding her the entire time and she isn't really listening. I don't give a hang about what tack you school in.
It's obvious that you don't trust her enough to ride her on a slack rein. This is why the military and why 3-day eventing includes a Dressage phase, to show that you have control over your horse when you are not jumping. You leave the ring on a totally slack rein, holding just the buckle, to show that your horse won't misbehave.
I would learn to start your sessions with 10-15 minutes of ground training, teach Diamond to whoa EVERY TIME, and learn to ride all gaits at a slack rein. Back her up every day, and every time you think of it. NOTHING gets a horse paying attention more than backing. There is way too much energy in Hunter classes and they are looking for controlled and relaxed horses. I wouldn't be comfortable riding Diamond like this.
You should also school with loads and loads of transitions, so that every minute or two you ask for a new gait, a slower gait, a half pass, a halt, then canter cue. This is how you get a horse to start listening to you, the rider. After one hour of this riding, then you let her walk cool on a loose rein. One good week of this kind of schooling and she'll expect you to "crack the whip" and not think that she can push you around. =D


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## xJumperx (Feb 19, 2012)

Thank you all very much! Sorry I have just now gotten back to this thread. 
I completely see where BugZapper is coming from. I am the type of rider that HATES seeing people haul on their horses' mouths, so I really respect his/her honesty.

It is very true what Corporal said; I do not trust her at all when it comes to being at home. If I give her any slack, she is liable to throw that head up and take off. She is currently in a nice thick french link, as she hates single joint snaffles. The french link is what you see in the video. I will definitely keep in mind the several transitions, and will definitely make that a main part of our riding regime!

I think it was Tiny that asked about what was different between home and trailered away. When we are away, we are in an arena. That's the only main difference I can think of, to be honest. At home, we have to ride where she is always turned out in the pasture (aside from the very small circle I was riding in here; that was in our backyard, in front of her turnout pasture. She rides the same in both situations). 

I honestly thought pain could be an issue, but I don't see how. The saddle fits her, she just had her teeth floated last week, the vet checked her out and all seems fine and dandy. Other than her being a little overweight, she shouldn't be in pain.

If I didn't answer your question, bear with me and please just ask again


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

xJumperx said:


> I think it was Tiny that asked about what was different between home and trailered away. When we are away, we are in an arena. That's the only main difference I can think of, to be honest. At home, we have to ride where she is always turned out in the pasture (aside from the very small circle I was riding in here; that was in our backyard, in front of her turnout pasture. She rides the same in both situations).


Maybe you are more uncomfortable/ less confident in the open and unrestricted area at home. In the arena, do you feel safer & rider more confidently? Or maybe you are more able to focus on your riding when you don't have to "worry" about the wide open spaces in the pasture, or all the objects in the back yard.

Next time you are out somewhere, have another video made. Let's see how it goes; maybe someone here can see the difference.


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## xJumperx (Feb 19, 2012)

@NorthernMama 
Everything you stated could very well be accurate. I can get a video of her going in an arena as early as next Wednesday (not tomorrow, but the 10th).


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

that's interesting. I didn't realize that riding at home was a "scarier" location. that WOULD make you more likely to want to put on a tight hold on the rein and maybe freeze up a bit in your body, especially if you 've experienced her bolting off with you.


If you have a good one rein stop on her, you will feel more confident about riding her out becuase you will know that you can shut her down if she's starting to brace and get cranked up.

and if you can offer the choice of going on a looser rein, and she knows it, she may soon start choosing to move more calmly. 

but, also, if there are her buddies out in the pasture grazing, and she's being ridden, there is the mental distraction of her just wanting to be "done" with the whole thing, which can make a horse rush.


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## xJumperx (Feb 19, 2012)

She does have a very nice one rein stop. I really will try to keep a looser rein with her, and get a video of it for you guys to check out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CandyCanes (Jul 1, 2013)

Just to say, I LOVE your attitude. You are so willing to answer questions and you don't get your hackles up if people are a little more than blunt.
Keep it up! Its your type of person that keeps this forum friendly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## xJumperx (Feb 19, 2012)

frlsgirl said:


> I recognize the giraffe like posture and hollowed back; that was my horse a few months ago.
> 
> Here is what's worked for me:
> 
> ...


Thank you SO much for this. Can I ask you what you mean by "if she comes above I supple"? 

CandyCanes, thank you so much for your lovely compliment  I'm just interested in helping my horse, and I realize I don't have all the answers. Any input is helpful


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## Starcailer (Aug 22, 2014)

xJumperx said:


> Thank you SO much for this. Can I ask you what you mean by "if she comes above I supple"?
> 
> CandyCanes, thank you so much for your lovely compliment  I'm just interested in helping my horse, and I realize I don't have all the answers. Any input is helpful


She means if she comes up in the head, sticking her nose in the air, hollowing her back to evade the contact, then to supple the horse. I personally supple by half halting with seat + outside rein, and then playing on the inside with my fingertips, encouraging the horse to flex to the inside, apply that inside leg to help her bend around it on a circle and keep asking until she puts her head back on earth.


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## frlsgirl (Aug 6, 2013)

xJumperx said:


> Thank you SO much for this. Can I ask you what you mean by "if she comes above I supple"?


Here is Jane Savoie's explanation:

"Once a horse has developed a steady rhythm (the first ingredient in the training scale), the next goal in training is suppleness. Suppleness refers to your horse’s ability to smoothly change his balance forward and back and side to side. Your horse should be supple in two ways–laterally supple through his side and longitudinally supple over his topline.

Your horse’s muscles need to be loose and elastic through the poll, neck, shoulders, back and hips to accomplish this. As your horse’s physical therapist, use the following exercises to loosen or “unlock” your horse:

POLL: The “poll” refers to the occipital protrusion at the back of the skull. However, in common usage, many people refer to the poll joint, between the atlas (C1) and skull as the poll. The poll is important to you because if your horse is blocked there, your aids can’t go “through” his body. If your horse is supple at the poll, you can position his head at the end of his neck either to the left or to the right from a little turn of the wrist (indirect rein action). Don’t open or close your fingers to supple the poll. If you wiggle the bit or open and close your fingers, you’re just asking your horse to flex at his jaw—not his poll. When your horse is supple at the poll, you’ll feel less resistance when turning your wrist.

NECK: While riding on a circle, use the inside rein in the same way you did when unlocking the poll, except ask for a bigger bend (7 inches to the inside, as opposed to 1 inch when flexing the poll). Do three bends in a row to the inside, quickly but smoothly. Don’t hold the bend and wait for your horse to “give” (that’s his jaw giving, not his neck). Also, keep the contact with his mouth instead of letting the rein get loopy. Be sure to squeeze with your inside leg at the same time you use your inside rein. Keep your outside rein steady and supporting. Don’t let your outside hand go forward. Your hands should stay side-by-side. That outside rein limits the bend to 7 inches. Then you’ll use it to straighten the neck. 

After the three “supples”, leave your horse alone for six to eight strides and just maintain an elastic contact with his mouth. Then do another set of three supples. If the suppling was effective, your horse will lengthen and lower his head and neck and feel more relaxed. Repeat this neck suppling exercise in the other direction. Very stiff horses will require support from the outside leg to prevent their hindquarters from swinging off the track of the circle.

SHOULDERS: Starting at the walk, make a 20-meter square instead of a circle. Ride your horse with counter-flexion (His face is positioned 1 inch to the outside.) throughout the exercise. At each corner, move both hands to the inside to swivel your horse’s shoulders around the 90-degree turn. Soften when you complete the turn, but don’t let the reins go loopy. As your horse becomes more supple in his shoulders, you’ll feel less and less resistance in your hands as you slide his shoulders around the corners.

HIPS: Leg yielding loosens and supples your horse’s shoulders, back, and hips. If you’re leg yielding to the right, keep your right leg on the girth to maintain forward movement, and place your left leg three to four inches behind the girth to ask for sideways movement. You can squeeze and release with this leg if your horse isn’t moving sideways enough. 

Your left rein asks for flexion by “turning the key in the lock” with your left hand. Keep your right rein steady, supporting contact.

Put weight on the seatbone that’s in the direction you want your horse to move—in this case the right seatbone. But take extra care to remain sitting squarely on your horse. Don’t lean to the right.

Once your horse moves in a regular rhythm and is supple, you’ll be ready to move on to the third ingredient in the training scale—Connection."


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## xJumperx (Feb 19, 2012)

Thank you all VERY much for that lovely article/response! I saved it and will definitely refer to it frequently.


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## xJumperx (Feb 19, 2012)

Video up tomorrow of Diamond and I in an arena. 

I have been doing some work with getting her to focus on ME, and lots of work with making sure that my hands are more gentle and forgiving. I hope that shows in the video I post tomorrow! Keep in mind that she will be in an arena this time, so you'll see what I mean by her behavior differences.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## xJumperx (Feb 19, 2012)

*New Video*

Diamond in an arena, after working on getting her focused and keeping a good consistent contact.
The saddle used is an AP English that fits her well, everything else is the same as in the other video (well, besides the location ) 
Happy to answer any questions, and hopefully I can get another updated critique from this one!


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## frlsgirl (Aug 6, 2013)

The video is a little dark. Trotting clockwise could use more engagement; seemed a little stiff. The canter is still very unbalanced - much like my mare. Overall I think it's a little better than the first video but Rome wasn't built in a day; it takes time to get a stiff/resistant/unbalanced horse moving correctly. 

You are on your way...it takes time...and lots and lots of suppling. Circles and loopy figures are your friend. Keep up the good work


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

I do see improvement in the second video, but it is dark. 

Now keep in mind, I am primarily a western rider  but I do take English lessons. 

I think the big thing for you to keep in mind is to give her some _release_ when she does something correctly. I think some basics would do this mare good. When she gives her nose to the pressure of the bit, overexaggerate your cue and put a ton of slack in the reins. Let her know it was correct for her to give to the pressure. 

I would work on that laterally first (side to side) before trying to do it vertically. You can do lots of circles and serpentines. Start at the walk; perfect it there. THen move to the trot; perfect it there. And then the lope. 

I'm actually working on this with my 3-year-old right now. He's got a nice soft mouth and give great laterally. Now I'm just trying to get him to understand how to give his nose vertically, while keeping his bum engaged. It just takes time. 

But I think that's the biggest thing I see: You aren't giving her some big obvious release from rein pressure when she does something correctly. I don't expect you to ride around with western pleasure slack reins ;-) but I should be able to easily see it. It's always easiest to be really obvious with your cues when you are training your horse something new. Once she gets the hang of it, then you can be subtle.


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## Starcailer (Aug 22, 2014)

I see much improvement at the trot, though she still does come up and try and fight you occasionally, however she still remains pretty evasive in the Canter. Its a better video than the first, and I do see improvement, so I think youre on the right track.


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## xJumperx (Feb 19, 2012)

Yes, the video was a bit dark, which is mainly why there isn't much footage. The daylight was fleeting.

So glad to hear that we seem to be on the right track!  I will make sure to be more obvious with her rewards. 

Circles and such are definitely on the list. Working with cones would help to, right? Serpentine between them and such?


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## Starcailer (Aug 22, 2014)

Circles, figure eights, serpentine, spiraling in to a 10 meter circle then back out to a 20 meter, and lots of change of directions and transitions. That is what I would be doing!


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

The thing is that is this actually improvement? Because the difficulty is not in the arena, it is a home in the field. So unless the field work has improved, the OP still is in the same boat. What's the difference between the field video and the arena video? However, I didn't comment earlier because I could see much of anything in the second video. It's just too dark.


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

I see a lot of improvement (as always with you) in the latest video. Your trot is very good, but your canter still needs improvement. At the canter I think you would benefit from sitting lighter in the seat. In the link below, Bernie Traurig discusses four seats that could be utilized on a course but it translate into flat work, too. There is a video (a trailer) at the end of it. What I see in your last video is that you are using somewhere between what Bernie calls a full seat and a driving seat. If you stop the video in Bernie’s link at 00:12 and look at the full seat (bottom left), I think if you rode more in that seat by closing your hip angle, Diamond would be less likely to hollow out. 

5 Minute Clinic with Bernie Traurig â€“ Get My Fix


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## xJumperx (Feb 19, 2012)

Thank you all for your input! 

I was lucky enough to have a clinic with Mr. Traurig with Cowboy, and thought he was a great teacher. That video is a big help. I've also been on EquestrianCoach.com quite a bit and seen some videos there that might help, so I'm excited to implement some more techniques to help Diamond and myself.

I totally agree with NorthernMama that you guys need a field video to get a more obvious critique comparison. I will see what I can do about getting some video out here at home, and ask again for some information  I will admit that she is doing so much better on a looser, more forgiving rein. I'm working on really keeping her focus, and rewarding her when I have it. Thank you all again for all the information you've provided, it has been extremely helpful!


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