# Carl Hester riding valegro demo ride.



## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Um.... Carl isn't a promoter of rolkur??????


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## Oxer (Jul 9, 2010)

can we talk about that horses walk for a moment... i mean... really!!?? How does a horse have the most amazing, athletic, elastic walk?! Shows you how much dressage i watch. But my god... i didn't know a walk could look so majestic!


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

I love how Carl is sounding puffed out - almost as if riding is hard!


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## kayleeloveslaneandlana (Apr 10, 2011)

Oh how I love hat horse! Can he come meet my horses and just give some of his amazing talent to them??? I would be very grateful. XD


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## Royal Pine Buck (May 28, 2011)

Kayty said:


> Um.... Carl isn't a promoter of rolkur??????


I'm sorry I am going to have to disagree with you.


Promoter might not have been a good word, but he DOES believe that a horse needs to be put in a LDR/Rolkur (same thing to me) frame at some points in training them. which I disagree with.

but yes, Carl Hester is a firm supporter of LDR/Rolkur.


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## Royal Pine Buck (May 28, 2011)

*Deleted* double post.:lol:


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## With Grace (Oct 20, 2011)

Royal Pine Buck said:


> I'm sorry I am going to have to disagree with you.
> 
> 
> Promoter might not have been a good word, but he DOES believe that a horse needs to be put in a LDR/Rolkur (same thing to me) frame at some points in training them. which I disagree with.
> ...


Can you point me to where he supports LDR/ Rolkur? So then does Charlotte support it as well?


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

RPB... he's always maintained that he does NOT advocate rolkur. 
And no, LDR is NOT the same thing if ridden correctly - not just rolkur with a different name. 

In a 'true' LDR, the horse is ridden with a deeper neck and softly asked to come a little behind the vertical, to assist in picking up the back and stretching the neck from the wither. There is no backwards force on the horse's jaw, and generally ridden with very light contact. This can be very useful for a horse that tends to brace through the neck, or one that is highly reactive. I will put my horse in LDR with no hesitation when I feel that he's going to blow up - he's extremely reactive and spooky, and to bring him a little deep is the 'safe' position for both of us until he settles. 

If Carl's horses were rolkured, that would not be so beautifully up to the bridle. There is no pulling action on them at all. Compare how Carl/Charlotte's horses work compared to Adelinda's 'Parzival', or Partrik's 'Scandic', who are publically trained in rolkur. 

I suspect Carl would be quite offended to think he was being accused of employing and advocating rolkur.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

Oh wow... just in the walk intially around the arena - watch the butt. I swear that horse should be a teenage girl with that wiggle!  Awesome to watch. 

I didn't see any Rolkur happening, but then, what do I know...


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I've never been aware of Carl supporting rolkurr. His horses are always super fit and have loads of impulsion so you dont see the constant kick kick nag nag to keep them moving forwards - one of the reasons he sits so still and his horses are so responsive to the lightest aids
Most of these horse do have a naturally high head carriage so when you do have to get a bit strong with them if they get too forward they can slip slightly behind the ideal head position but thats not the same as Rolkurr
Lovely video though


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

Kayty said:


> I suspect Carl would be quite offended to think he was being accused of employing and advocating rolkur.


I think so too. 

I think the reason Carl's horses is that they actually get turnout and hacks. They aren't forced to work all the time so they do it more willingly.


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## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

Lovely horse! Remember, "you too can do this with your horse when you get home."


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Carl certainly treats his horses like horses, its nice to see! 
Yes, there's always going to be times when you use a little more force than what you'd like to, to get a point across, but he most certainly does not hang off their jaw, leaning back, hauling their chin to their chest. 
Anyone who thinks all training is butterflies and roses needs to step out of fantasy land. There are always times when you need to assert a command more thoroughly.


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## EvilHorseOfDoom (Jun 17, 2012)

Kayty said:


> Carl certainly treats his horses like horses, its nice to see!
> Yes, there's always going to be times when you use a little more force than what you'd like to, to get a point across, but he most certainly does not hang off their jaw, leaning back, hauling their chin to their chest.
> Anyone who thinks all training is butterflies and roses needs to step out of fantasy land. There are always times when you need to assert a command more thoroughly.


I know, I despise rollkur with a passion (I can't even watch some of the Dutch riders or Patrik Kittel, as it hurts just to see their poor horses being cranked in and held in place with brute force). However, if a horse needed _LDR _to settle him then I'd do it. 

Heck, I ride Brock with his nose at my foot for up to 30 seconds sometimes (ORS), because if I didn't in that moment, he'd have me on the ground. I've done a lot of gentle stretching on the ground over many months to help him get his neck that flexible, and my ask is very gentle (drop outside rein, a _little_ squeeze-release-squeeze-release on the inside rein - with a snaffle bit and a plain noseband), but it's enough to disengage his hindquarters and keep me from breaking my silly neck. Sure, he mightn't love me in that 30 seconds because I'm not letting him do what he wants to do (send me to the moon then go back to grazing), but he'd love me a lot less if I had to sell him to the first buyer because I was too badly injured to work and pay for his keep...

Carl is a beautiful rider, and Valegro's walk is so loose and free. I've definitely got no complaints with his methods. Every training decision he makes seems very well-reasoned and makes sense from a physiological and psychological perspective.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Kayty said:


> Carl certainly treats his horses like horses, its nice to see!
> Yes, there's always going to be times when you use a little more force than what you'd like to, to get a point across, but he most certainly does not hang off their jaw, leaning back, hauling their chin to their chest.
> Anyone who thinks all training is butterflies and roses needs to step out of fantasy land. There are always times when you need to assert a command more thoroughly.


Too true! Yes, it gets ugly before it gets pretty sometimes! When my horse is not moving off my leg in the arena.....it's not pretty!! But it gets ugly:twisted: for about however long he decides to be a dink.....then it gets pretty......and that is the process of training, a horse needs to make a mistake before he can learn.....


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## rbarlo32 (Aug 9, 2010)

Royal Pine Buck, why would Carl use rollker when it is banned at competition in the UK it would be stupid. My favourite one of his horses in Uthopia who happens to be the the horse he rode at the olympics, I don't know if you get this program in America but if you do watch At home with Carl Hester, it is all about his yard, his and Charlottes riding, training and looking after the horses ect worth a watch.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

EXACTLY Muppet! 
It doesn't look as polished as it does in a competition arena, at all times. That is only the final result. 

My horse is a shocking spooker and occassional bolter, and does tend to have an opinion. If he's not in front of my leg and 100% focussed at all times, I have no problems in bringing his nose around to my boot and kicking him off that leg until he gives and goes forward. No point in piddling around with a horse that's behind the leg and who's brain is outside the arena eating grass in the paddock still. 

As I said, anyone who thinks horse training is rainbows and butterflies needs to stop reading the Black Stallion or watching the Saddle Club!!!!


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## With Grace (Oct 20, 2011)

rbarlo32 said:


> Royal Pine Buck, why would Carl use rollker when it is banned at competition in the UK it would be stupid. My favourite one of his horses in Uthopia who happens to be the the horse he rode at the olympics, I don't know if you get this program in America but if you do watch At home with Carl Hester, it is all about his yard, his and Charlottes riding, training and looking after the horses ect worth a watch.


That's been on HRTV here in the states...it's definitely a good peak into his life.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Kayty said:


> EXACTLY Muppet!
> It doesn't look as polished as it does in a competition arena, at all times. That is only the final result.
> 
> My horse is a shocking spooker and occassional bolter, and does tend to have an opinion. If he's not in front of my leg and 100% focussed at all times, I have no problems in bringing his nose around to my boot and kicking him off that leg until he gives and goes forward. No point in piddling around with a horse that's behind the leg and who's brain is outside the arena eating grass in the paddock still.
> ...


Occasional bolter???? LOL! it must be the snaffle! LOL! Sorry couldn't help myself!!!!!!

But on a serious note, most good trainers let their horses make a mistake, just so they have the opportunity to correct the horse and allow him to do it right on his own.....unlike the many micromanagers who nag and nag their horse and their only goal is to have a perfect ride by bullying the horse the whole time....those are the kind that you just want to yell at and tell them to give their horse a break.....


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Haha well, occassional being a handful of times in the last 8 months - too many times to go un noticed by me, the little twinkle toes princess he is  Reckon I should just crank him up in a double, whack some draw reins through the curb, then lean back and let my gadgets do their thing!!!!


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Kayty said:


> Haha well, occassional being a handful of times in the last 8 months - too many times to go un noticed by me, the little twinkle toes princess he is  Reckon I should just crank him up in a double, whack some draw reins through the curb, then lean back and let my gadgets do their thing!!!!


Haha you're too funny! I'm so terrified about my horse getting hard in the face that I'm all about using my legs!!!! So no hauling, plus my bits are not the kind a sensible person who values their neck would haul on! LOL!!


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Definitely not!!!! A curb would be rather deadly :S
Maybe I need to stick my guy in a lovely scary looking Western bit for a while  (folks, I'm joking!)

When he bolts, he sure as hell gets his head hauled around to my ankle, when you're going a million miles an hour on a panicking, true bolting horse - its nice to be able to pull on SOMETHING!


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## Weezilla (Aug 3, 2012)

Royal Pine Buck said:


> I may not agree with Carl Hester being a promoter of LDR/Rollkur...
> 
> But DARNIT! I WANT HIS SEAT! He hardly even moves. and that was a beautiful demo ride.
> 
> ...


Carl Hester does NOT ride or promote rollkur. Where on earth did you come up with that?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

This is more dressagy of a thread than I normally care to post on, but...

Just got back from a ride on Mia in the desert. She's an Arabian mare who helps perpetuate the stereotype of an Arabian mare. Now...truth is, I prefer a western approach to reins. I like slack in the reins, but this evening she was having none of it. She would INSIST on contact, and then prance around with her neck arched and her head in. This didn't make for a happy ride. We pranced in washes, and we pranced on rocky trails. I spun her around a dozen times as her prance sped up to the point I knew a bolt was about to follow. 

If I put slack in the reins, she would stretch down. More slack, and she would pull her neck back up and in so they were drooping. When I took some slack out, she would stretch in and force contact. I would swear that if my daughter had taken the camera, I would be able to show you pictures of LDR and rollkur - with none of it coming from me.

My point is that I have to adjust to her. She gets a vote too. And sometimes, keeping her in some control means we look like we're doing something we are not. If someone says they don't believe in rollkur, but it looks like rollkur - it may not be. Pictures don't always show how much tension is in the reins, or why it is there.

Less than an hour of riding left me pooped. Afterward, I told my wife that I would love to someday, just once in my life, relax on a horse. My daughter gave me a hug then, because she always rides our relaxed, roll-a-smoke gelding Trooper. But please be careful of saying someone does something they say they do not do. Four years of life with Mia is teaching me that riding can be vastly more complicated than it seems, because some horses are complex - and the rider has to ride the horse that exists between his (or her) legs. Sometimes, what I want and how I prefer to ride has to go out the window so I can ride the horse who is there.

Sorry if this is off topic. It seemed to make sense and be related when I started typing. :?


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Too true BSMS.....yes sometimes you've just got to do what you've got to do, even if it goes against others grains and even your own......and usually it ain't pretty! :lol:


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## Royal Pine Buck (May 28, 2011)

1. The horses would not be ridden in rolkur/LDR during the competition phase in which they are judged, it is how they warm up. 

2. Carl Hester might not ride in what some deem to be "rolkur" but he does ride in LDR in what I deem overbent.

3. Just because a competition "bans rolkur from being used in the competition, doesn't stop some riders. Ex: Patrik Kittel in the OLYMPIC Warmup. 

4. overbent is overbent is overbent. 

5. Carl Hester,Steffen Peters like to use the deep method in warming up a horse. I do not agree with it and I have that right. this was suppose to be a post about a rider's seat that I actually enjoy and somehow it got turned into me bashing the guy...interesting

6. LDR is considered to be a milder form of hyperflexion, rolkur is the more extreme overbending hyperflexion exercises.

7. I never said that he was doing LDR or Rolkur in this video. Infact, I actually said it was a very beautiful demo ride. 

8. I do think that Carl Hester and Du Jardin's ride were among the best in the olympics and their rides were awarded appropriately .

in no way did I say they were bad riders or bad people. some people take something good and try to make it into a whole issue. just because I don't agree with some of the methods doesn't mean I think they should never sit on a horse.

like I said I WOULD LOVE to have Mr. Hester's seat . so still and quite. that was the whole point of posting this lovely video.

I would rather go to a clinic taught by carl hester than anky or sjef Janssen...definitely Patrik Kittel.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Royal Pine Buck said:


> *I may not agree with Carl Hester being a promoter of LDR/Rollkur...*
> 
> But DARNIT! I WANT HIS SEAT! He hardly even moves. and that was a beautiful demo ride.
> 
> ...


The bolder part says it all......you said the man promoted LDR/Rollkur.....you also said your post was about the beautiful riding and his seat......yet your first line says the man promotes Rollkur AND LDR.........lead with the wrong foot and you'll fall down.....


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

And Steffen???
Wow. Steffen would have to be one of the quiestest, most caring riders out there. He and Carl are both genuinely interested and concerned for their horses welfare. 

Putting a horse slightly deep to stretch the back and neck is not abusive, rather put them a little deep to pick their back up and develop suppleness over the topline, than ride them with their head stuck up in the air. 
You should never ride a horse in a competition frame constantly. The horse needs to be adjustable and able to work softly in any number of positions. Riding with the poll high, head slightly in front of the vertical through training, will give you a stiff horse with undeveloped muscles. 

Carl did exhibit my definition of LDR in that video by the way. He put the horse low and deep, while juggling off each leg to develop a softer, more flexible topline. Valegro looked terribly stressed with the ordeal.....


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## Royal Pine Buck (May 28, 2011)

Muppetgirl said:


> The bolder part says it all......you said the man promoted LDR/Rollkur.....you also said your post was about the beautiful riding and his seat......yet your first line says the man promotes Rollkur AND LDR.........lead with the wrong foot and you'll fall down.....



Yes, he IS an advocate of riding deep/LDR method ( he states this in his masterclass video) some would go further an call it Rolkur. ! 

nowhere in THIS video that I posted did I say he was riding deep,LDR or rolkur or any other word they found to call it these days.. I would suggest searching it for yourself. 

he states he uses the technique to control the horse.

I will post some references tomorrow, tonight I am too tired.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

*gasp*
LDR!!!!! Terribly stressed, poor Ravel.... Again, this is my definition of LDR, and many others. Not the FEI version of rolkur with a different name. LDR copped flack when it was undeserved, because it was the 'go to' around rolkur. 

peters aachen 0002 - YouTube


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

He's some real rolkur for your viewing pleasure




 
See the difference?


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## Royal Pine Buck (May 28, 2011)

Kayty said:


> And Steffen???
> Wow. Steffen would have to be one of the quiestest, most caring riders out there. He and Carl are both genuinely interested and concerned for their horses welfare.
> 
> Putting a horse slightly deep to stretch the back and neck is not abusive, rather put them a little deep to pick their back up and develop suppleness over the topline, than ride them with their head stuck up in the air.
> ...


again...where did I attack the rider's personality or Steffen Peter's personality?I did not say that the rider's are not caring or quiet riders. 

the method they use I just don't agree, it is my personal opinion. The rider's personality wasn't even part of the topic, you need to differentiate the two. 

Slightly deep and round,counter flexion,counter bending, long and low etc etc. are fine and I agree you shouldn't need to ride in a competion frame all the time or even one frame all the time, you need to supple.... but being BEHIND THE VERTICAL with a closed throatlatch is not going to do anything for the horse.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

*facepalm*
The ignorance of people these days continues to astound and appall me.

In order to bring a horse up the levels in a timely fashion (ie reaching the GP before the horse is having a dirt nap) he must be pushed in ways which are uncomfortable to him. This includes and is not limited to:
Having a rider on his back, a bit in his mouth and a girth around his belly
Going forwards from the leg
Going sideways from the leg
Coming into a contact with the hand
Going forward from the leg into the contact
Going forward from the leg into the contact with a bend
Going forward from the leg into the contact with a bend while going sideways
Going forward from the leg into the contact with a bend while doing a pirouette
Going forward from the leg into the contact while changing leads/bends in the canter
Going forward from the leg into the contact while maintaining an un-naturally elevated gait
Etc..

And you honestly think that asking the horse to put their head down is something that is worth defaming internationally successful riders over??
The only peer-reviewed study that I've come across about Rolkur concluded that the blood levels of "stress hormones" and the vital signs of the horse were no different when the horse was in a competition frame versus a Rolkur frame.
I've also seen a study from an internationally renowned equine biomechanics PhD touting the benefits of schooling horses in deep, LDR and Rolkur frames for short periods of time when wanting to free up the back. (And yes, both of these are BTV ridden horses)

And yet we are still perfectly fine as a society accepting unbalanced riders pulling on their horses and bouncing on their backs, causing irreparable damage to the horse, as demonstrated by many studies. Enough so that we have judges so afraid of criticizing the riders, for fear of not being hired again. Every judge I have ridden for, however, is unafraid of writing "horse too deep" or "poll low" on a test sheet. I have ridden for one judge, and one judge only, who has been honest enough to give a decent critique of my riding at time. The rest of them coddle riders in their comments and simply continue handing out scores below 55% with not a thought for the horse and what a comment about the rider would do to help him out.
But don't ask the horse to put his head down or BTV - that's abuse!


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## Royal Pine Buck (May 28, 2011)

Kayty said:


> He's some real rolkur for your viewing pleasure
> Scandic blue tongue uncut - YouTube
> 
> See the difference?


Yes, that is Patrik Kittel. That horses tongue turned blue from the lack of circulation from being in hyperflexion along with too tight of a noseband. I am familiar with the video.


Edited to add : I didn't realise I used Steffen Peter's name in the negative.:shock: 

I meant to use steffen peters's name in the positive way to warmup.... I'm kinda of shocked at myself.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Royal Pine Buck said:


> Yes, that is Patrik Kittel. That horses tongue turned blue from the lack of circulation from being in hyperflexion along with too tight of a noseband. I am familiar with the video.
> 
> 
> Edited to add : I didn't realise I used Steffen Peter's name in the negative.:shock:
> ...


No,
the horse's tongue turned blue because he got it between his bits. Which, despite what you may think, can actually happen to any horse regardless of how they are ridden and how tight the noseband is. It is a flukey thing.
The horse plays with the bits, and can get his tongue over, or in this unfortunate case, in between the bits. This can happen to anyone.

ETA: Also just as a general thing, lets please try to say "in my opinion" when speaking from a stance of ignorance on a subject. And if one is stating things like fact then they should, in fact, be fact.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> No,
> the horse's tongue turned blue because he got it between his bits. Which, despite what you may think, can actually happen to any horse regardless of how they are ridden and how tight the noseband is. It is a flukey thing.
> The horse plays with the bits, and can get his tongue over, or in this unfortunate case, in between the bits. This can happen to anyone.


I'm actually surprised he couldn't 'feel' when the horse had its tongue through like that......never having used a double bridle before myself - I ask you can you feel that in the horse, when the tongue is in between the bits? I've had a horse with his tongue over, and you can sure feel that.......


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

You'd certainly hope that a rider at that level could feel when the horse has it's tongue flopping around out the side of it's mouth. 

But, point of the video wasn't the tongue, it's the the first one that comes up when you type in rolkur - purely to exhibit the difference between this 'true' rolkur, and the deep and round methods that Hester and Peters use.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Usually, with a horse who has made a habit of putting the tongue over the bit, people will ride on for a moment to see if the tongue will "right" itself. For if it is to happen in a test, one needs to continue riding through it!!
Because the horse got his tongue through the bits, he couldn't retract it, and as soon as Mr. Kittel noticed that the horse had done something weirder than normal, he righted it. There really was no reason to be sending death threats to him in my opinion.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Excuse my ignorance on this matter, as I have not had the pleasure of my horse's putting their tongues over or through the bits as resistance in a double. Once, when I was 11, my pony put her tongue over the bit, and there was no way in hell that I could have righted it from the saddle. 
If the tongue was truly through the bits... how on Earth was he able to simply lean forward and push the tongue back in? If through the bits, one would think that the whole bridle would need to come off to get the tongue free, due to the position of the bits?


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Usually, with a horse who has made a habit of putting the tongue over the bit, people will ride on for a moment to see if the tongue will "right" itself. For if it is to happen in a test, one needs to continue riding through it!!
> Because the horse got his tongue through the bits, he couldn't retract it, and as soon as Mr. Kittel noticed that the horse had done something weirder than normal, he righted it. There really was no reason to be sending death threats to him in my opinion.


Isn't it amazing how horses can be so 'relaxed' when it comes to their tongues.....about one in every ten or so of the racehorses had to have their tongue tied to race, and you'd just grab the tongue, tie it, and off he went....no worries.....anyway I'm going off topic here!! Sorry!fftopic:


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Kayty, I do believe that after the initial fiddling the bridle is removed/readjusted (haven't watched the video recently).
Kittel knows his horse, and it might be that fiddling with his tongue in normal circumstances would have encouraged him to bring it back up. With my friend's horse as soon as she stops and reaches forward, he corrects his tongue.

Yes Muppet isn't in interesting how every horse is an individual and one cannot paint every horse with the same brush! Some horses are far more difficult and high strung than certain folks can imagine!
Let us not forget that at that same competition 2 horses were excused from the ring for spookiness - I can imagine the tension floating around in there!!


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

I haven't watched it in full either, just remember seeing him push the tongue in then ride on. Hopefully that's the case and Scandic simply retracted his tongue from that point. 

Absolutely right that there are no two horses that are the same. 
In the horses that I have had recently (recent being over the last 5 years), I've had two that back right off the bridle and want to come BTV - in those cases they were ridden forward and up like pony clubbers until they took a contact. 
One that tended to get a very light forehand and threatened to go up when contact was taken. Depending on the day, he was either ridden deep, or very up. 
Current horse is super reactive, very, very spooky and anxious. When he gets nervous, he braces his back, locks at the base of the neck and pulls on the rider. He is ridden deep and round quite frequently to help with this issue. 

I suspect those who condem putting a horse deep, or in a slightly more 'extreme' position than poll high, head just above the vertical, have had limited experience with different types of horse. When my fellow goes to shy and bolt, bringing him super deep is a god send and a safety belt for both of us.


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## Royal Pine Buck (May 28, 2011)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> *facepalm*
> The ignorance of people these days continues to astound and appall me.
> 
> In order to bring a horse up the levels in a timely fashion (ie reaching the GP before the horse is having a dirt nap) he must be pushed in ways which are uncomfortable to him. This includes and is not limited to:
> ...






~*~anebel~*~ said:


> And you honestly think that asking the horse to put their head down is something that is worth defaming internationally successful riders over??
> The only peer-reviewed study that I've come across about Rolkur concluded that the blood levels of "stress hormones" and the vital signs of the horse were no different when the horse was in a competition frame versus a Rolkur frame.
> I've also seen a study from an internationally renowned equine biomechanics PhD touting the benefits of schooling horses in deep, LDR and Rolkur frames for short periods of time when wanting to free up the back. (And yes, both of these are BTV ridden horses)


simple putting there head down? no. did you miss my post about changing of neck position to be correct? long/low,FDO,counter flex etc are all exercises in properly sxhooling the horse. Having a horse in a FRAME like this for an extended amount of time is useless and physically harmful. I suggest you look into the book Tug of War by Gerd Heuschmann. 

Yes, master dressage riders have gone deep on occasion, but usually for a couple strides or a minute to get allow a horse to stretch or to get a horse to stretch. they didn't hold them there for most of their warmup rides in a hyperflexed position.




~*~anebel~*~ said:


> And yet we are still perfectly fine as a society accepting unbalanced riders pulling on their horses and bouncing on their backs, causing irreparable damage to the horse, as demonstrated by many studies. Enough so that we have judges so afraid of criticizing the riders, for fear of not being hired again. Every judge I have ridden for, however, is unafraid of writing "horse too deep" or "poll low" on a test sheet. I have ridden for one judge, and one judge only, who has been honest enough to give a decent critique of my riding at time. The rest of them coddle riders in their comments and simply continue handing out scores below 55% with not a thought for the horse and what a comment about the rider would do to help him out.
> But don't ask the horse to put his head down or BTV - that's abuse!


I like how your implying that I don't want the horses head to be down ( i said change in flexion and changing neck and head position is a good thing, however, overbending and behind the vertical not my cup of tea, I see no purpose in allowing the horse to be behind the vertical if you can prevent it. it is possible to allow the horse to lower his head without becoming behind the vertical and with an OPEN throatlatch you know.

and to throw in the word abuse, which by the way I never used in this topic. The way Carl hester rode the horse in this video is beautiful. if you say I said any other thing about this video you are wrong.


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## Oxer (Jul 9, 2010)

did anyone see the Piaffe in the video that Kayty posted of Peters and Ravel... it was on a loose rein. He did a Piaffe on a LOOSE REIN! Juuuust another day at the office. Amazing. fftopic:
sorry, more off topic banter. Please proceed.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Oxer - I love that video, hence posting it  
Steffen is a genious - not many riders around at that level you see warming up with a loose rein piaffe. 
I have done a couple of clinics with a student of Steffen's, and she said that his definition of contact, is that the horse reacts as soon as you ask it anything through the rein. There is NEVER a backwards pressure on the rein, and he will not accept a horse being heavy in the bridle. 
You can certainly see how effective his method is when you look at how Ravel works, and how happy he is in his work.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Kayty said:


> Oxer - I love that video, hence posting it
> Steffen is a genious - not many riders around at that level you see warming up with a loose rein piaffe.
> I have done a couple of clinics with a student of Steffen's, and she said that his definition of contact, is that the horse reacts as soon as you ask it anything through the rein. There is NEVER a backwards pressure on the rein, and he will not accept a horse being heavy in the bridle.
> You can certainly see how effective his method is when you look at how Ravel works, and how happy he is in his work.


Wow....I definitely understand that! It's certainly something that is also preached by many good reining trainers.....interestng:lol:


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