# Horse shaking head when asked to canter w/mini bucks?



## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

This to me sounds like your horse might be trying to suggest that he's uncomfortable with something, or something is bothering him. Have you looked at your saddle or had him worked by a Chiro recently?


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## elkie09 (Sep 22, 2016)

my2geldings said:


> This to me sounds like your horse might be trying to suggest that he's uncomfortable with something, or something is bothering him. Have you looked at your saddle or had him worked by a Chiro recently?


That's what I felt as well...however the vet looked at her back and found that there was no issue or pain there (however no rider was on). The saddle is fit for her, so I don't think that is the issue, although no Chiro has looked at her yet, so perhaps her back is out of whack from the lameness she suffered while her hocks continued to get inflamed before treatment.

Keep in mind- this horse does not have the best work ethic and does have attitude. Ex: she caused her original injury from constantly kicking her stall when feeding time came for the horses in the barn. Now the owner is having hay in her stall at all times to try and make sure she has no cause to get hissy and beat her stall up again.


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## charrorider (Sep 23, 2012)

Have you considered low ringbone?


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

My horse does this. She's much better about it. There are several possibilities:

1) your saddle. Does it fit? are you CERTAIN? if there is *any* doubt in your mind you need your trainer or the horse's owner to check. In this case, the horse is speaking to you and a horse talking is a very valuable thing indeed. If ignored, it will shut down and it is not fair to make a horse work in pain.

2) Your riding. Are you cueing too hard? Incorrectly? Are you leaning forward? Backward? Your horse also may be communicating that he cannot pick up the canter due to your lack of aids/incorrect position. Double check with your instructor.

3) Bit. Are the teeth done? Are you certain? Can you ask trainer/owner to stick their fingers in the mouth to feel for sharp edges? This is usually not isolated to issues with the canter, but every horse is different.

4) Hind end lameness. How are the hooves? The hocks? Is there any question about their soundness or comfort? Muscles along the croup nice and strong? Sometimes when a horse is sore behind they struggle to pick up the canter and head shaking is a horse trying to tell you it physically cannot.

5) It's worked in the past. For my horse, her head tossing was a result of past pain, but also that I would get off to check for pain. Horse just saw me getting off as getting out of work, and would head toss more. This became so chronic that I had to get professional help. Two days later the head tossing was resolved simply by insisting FORWARD.

Please check all things listed. If you can rule out all pain possibilities (this doesn't always require vet assistance, but if you choose not to go the vet route the one observing for soreness MUST be extremely educated), then it is training, and you MUST. NOT. GIVE. IN. Kick on! Forward! Do not let them think head shaking means they don't have to canter. You must be brave. It is hard, I know, but the more you back off when a horse exhibits this evasion, the worse it is going to be.


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## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

elkie09 said:


> That's what I felt as well...however the vet looked at her back and found that there was no issue or pain there (however no rider was on). The saddle is fit for her, so I don't think that is the issue, although no Chiro has looked at her yet, so perhaps her back is out of whack from the lameness she suffered while her hocks continued to get inflamed before treatment.
> 
> Keep in mind- this horse does not have the best work ethic and does have attitude. Ex: she caused her original injury from constantly kicking her stall when feeding time came for the horses in the barn. Now the owner is having hay in her stall at all times to try and make sure she has no cause to get hissy and beat her stall up again.



Oh ok good to know. Were her teeth looked at to? Does she do the same thing on the lunge line? Would you be able to get a video of you riding when this happens?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Okay testing, before I type and get 'data base error'


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

So, to try again, since last post went into the great Blue Yonder!
Trying to get a clearer picture, so let me post as to what I got out of the original post.
We have a horse with no turn out, who thus acted out in frustration, kicking her stall walls and got capped hocks, I assume
|lot' of fluid draining, giving relief, sure does not indicate joint fluid, thus assume it was capped hocks from trauma.
Thus the hrose has a reason to be mentally challenged (confinement, thus developing a steriotypi behavior ) and
is now acting up when ridden. No surprise!
You have a horse that is confined, perhaps still has a pain issue with those hocks who decided there was no pain issue, a vet? ), this have a horse both mentally and physically challenged
I would be surprised if she rode well!
Horses have a great ability to adapt, but we, as human care givers, must make sure never to exceed the level where they are able to adapt. No turn out, for whatever excuse, exceeds that ability to adapt.
Just piling hay in front of her, does not solve the issue, nor does a toy. Horses need the ability to move, at least part time.
How about putting a human in a cell, no chance to self exercise? That person either goes nuts or acts out
Get that horse some turn out-no excuse!


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## Chaz80 (Sep 29, 2015)

my mare always does this in winter,
there is no winter turnout and as a result she is stabled for pretty much 24 hrs a day
we are only allowed half an hour in the indoor turnout
and she only gets ridden 2-3 times a week as a pose to every day in summer as we have to pay £1 for half an hours riding in the school!!
so she gets very stiff in winter and reluctant to do much when ridden
she shakes her head about in protest and sometimes bucks when asked to canter,she was really bad but now she only does it every once in a while cos my daughter used to let her get away with it but she got fed up with being bullied so put on her big girl pants and told her in no uncertain terms that that is not the desired behaviour!
she soon got the message lol
she still puts in the odd cheeky cow kick but only when shes fresh  
if all avenues have been checked ie pain etc then i would just persevere and be firm with what you want your horse to do 
you will notice it gets easier over time if you are consistent


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

^ mine did it ALL WINTER LONG. It is a freshness thing, completely agree.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

If you have ruled out pain, School her on a proper Canter transition. Work on her getting arc'ed to the inside of your canter circle, practice getting her energy shifted over to her hind end, then aim for the smoothest release of the energy into the canter. If this is a problem for you, then you need to work with a trainer or a coach


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

It must be so hard to deal with situations where the horse is stall bound all day/night. I am truly blessed to have all day turn out for my lease horse. 

he does, however, come to me looking like a mudball. such is the breaks.


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## Filou (Jan 16, 2014)

If the horse is fresh I would put him/her in a figure 8 and practice transitions from walk to trot first, get their attention on you. For canter I'd start on a small circle and give him/her a little bump reminder on the reins every step so they stay focused on you. Sometimes with certain horses if they are fresh you have to ask really mildly and coax them up into the canter with just a kiss and light/no leg pressure or you will get the buck. After I know the horse has gotten out for a few days and should be better behaving I'll use a crop when they buck to break them of doing it all the time. I also try to make them stretch forward, sometimes they get kinda stuck going up and down rather than forward, especially with hock issues. I'd lunge the horse first to let it stretch out before expecting a lot of physical ability. 
Good luck!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I also expect ahorse to behave, just ride off, without being lunged, ect, and in fact, do that all the time on my broke hroses, even in winter, with weather never an excuse, BUT, my horses have turn out
When we trail ride, on over night trips , our hroses are tied up all night, then just saddled up and ridden in early dawn, wind blowing, ect
When horses are in a regular training program, those hroses also learn to be stalled, short term, but they are ridden every day
I feel sorry for both hroses and people who are at the mercy of the place they board, so that horse is kept stalled
Sterotypi behaviors occur in stalled horses, as a coping mechanism. They include cribbing, , weaving, stall kicking and even self mutilation at times. Fair and realistic expectations have to address both physical and mental pain, and not just 'putting on the big pants' The horse's health both mental and physical, depends on the horse having the ability to move
Mental pain has to be addressed, same as physical pain


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

For those who think stall confinement 24/7 is okay, perhaps some reading, as to how both physical and mental health is affected

https://www.thespruce.com/importance-of-turnout-for-your-horse-1886932


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## Chaz80 (Sep 29, 2015)

Smilie said:


> For those who think stall confinement 24/7 is okay, perhaps some reading, as to how both physical and mental health is affected
> 
> https://www.thespruce.com/importance-of-turnout-for-your-horse-1886932


i don't think stabling a horse 24/7 is ok, and i am well aware of the effects,
but unfortunately those who pay board at livery yards/barns are governed by the owners rules and for us and probably 9 out of 10 yards in winter there is NO winter turnout at all. 
it is not good for a horses mental or physical well- being i agree but you just have to deal with the situation as best you can and be sympathetic to your horses needs
putting on the "big girl pants" is what my mare needs sometimes when she gets in the bully state of mind just to remind her who is in charge
she is NEVER ridden hard in winter,hacks out and some light schooling are her winter routine.
thankfully my mare does not seem to mind being stabled 24/7,she kind of resigns herself to the fact!!
but on the other end of the scale the thoroughbred opposite us wind sucks constantly and paces round his box,rears at his door when people are around looking for attention..which i find very sad and is stressful for him.


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## elkdog (Nov 28, 2016)

Smilie said:


> For those who think stall confinement 24/7 is okay, perhaps some reading, as to how both physical and mental health is affected
> 
> https://www.thespruce.com/importance-of-turnout-for-your-horse-1886932


This is why I would never own an O.T.T.B. I have no problems with thoroughbreds though.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

If you have completely ruled out pain (assuming her treatment relieved 100% of her pain), then it's possible the horse still associates riding with pain. It takes some time for them to learn that it's not going to hurt. With that said, I don't let a horse have an "excuse" for acting up, so do what you have to do to correct her.

Has she been back to the vet since the injections? Know that injections often DO NOT completely resolve pain 100%. It is possible she may be still in pain (albeit not as much) and that is why she is protesting the canter.

It is also possible she is very fresh, as it sounds like she does not have any turnout right now? I would be hesitant to lunge a horse with known hock issues. The smaller the circle, the harder it is on those hocks. You may just have to ride it out.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

just curious, but why is it that 9 out of 10 yards in the UK have no winter turnout? Is it that it will create mud?

The reason I find this baffling is that I come from the 'Land of Rain". Washington State , or at least Western Washington state, is a very rainy place in the winter, much like England. We have mud in the winter, big time. The yard where I ride out of will either: cordon the horses off to one side of the pasture to keep one half of it from becoming ruined, or, create smaller , gravelled paddocks for winter turn out. where the pasture is large enough, they do nothing beyond putting in more gravel around the feeding stations to keep the mud from becoming too deep.

the horses are out, 24/7 in all kinds of weather. they ARE muddy. you have to clean out their feet regularly, and they come in looking like yaks. But they never have the 'crazies' from confinement. And, in the Spring, the grass will grow back and the fields regenerate. It look yucky, but it recovers.

We have the luxury of some 40 acres of land for the horses ( broken up into many smaller paddocks, some large pastures), but there are nearly 40 horses, so not a small outfit.


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

I'll say that not all of us have a choice sometimes with turnout options. SOME barns do not offer turnout at all. My last barn was such a barn. I didn't realize until leaving how depressed my horse had been. We still don't have pasture turnout but she gets a good sized dry lot to canter around in and play with the horse next to her. She seems to be really, really happy with access to the outdoors and sunlight.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I am not asking why the don't have turnout, but rather if they have summer turnout, why not winter? why shut down the turn out if it's winter? 

I am curious because of the similarities of climate of my country and theirs. And, many of our horses' only turnout is a gravel run in, big enough only for a lttle trot around in a circle. but, it's turnout, and feasible for any season.


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## Chaz80 (Sep 29, 2015)

tinyliny said:


> I am not asking why the don't have turnout, but rather if they have summer turnout, why not winter? why shut down the turn out if it's winter?
> 
> I am curious because of the similarities of climate of my country and theirs. And, many of our horses' only turnout is a gravel run in, big enough only for a lttle trot around in a circle. but, it's turnout, and feasible for any season.


we have an indoor sand paddock for winter turnout but its limited to half an hour per horse a day as there are 50 or so horses on the yard
and we don't have any winter grazing turnout as our fields like most others are too muddy and grass is scarce in winter,the fields are rested from nov to april so the grass grows back
but between april and nov my mare is turned out 24/7

thats just how the yard is run,our fields get very boggy and waterlogged,if it was just mud thats not a problem its the very large pools of water that cause problems! and just before turnout ended this year we had a lot of lame horses that had strained their tendons in the mud.. my mare included she was fine after a day or so


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## CanteringCalypso (Aug 13, 2017)

Have you tried lunging her to a canter to see if she reacts the same way? If not, it's probably the rider or the tack.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

horses are more likely to hurt themselves on poor ground, after confinement, tearing around, because they have been locked up, versus being on turnout, learning to handle that footing.
It is also the reason why young horses, allowed to develop on all kinds of terrain, have much longer longevity of soundness then horses raised in stalls because they are 'too valuable'to turn out. Sure, there is a risk of injury, but that is way off set by the lack of development of healthy functional feet, a strong skeletal system. Take a human athlete-who has the healthier body in the end-some person never exercising freely, taking little risk, staying safely inside, or the athlete, out there stressing his skeletal and cardiovascular system?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

While I strongly believe in addressing any attitude problems,having wind, ect, not as an excuse, nor even some confinement, I have a hard time just advising to put on'big girl pants, to ride a horse not allowed to be a horse
Call it'preventative'medicine, empathy, realizing the needs of a horse, through his very nature, extending beyond food and water and a place to sleep


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## elkie09 (Sep 22, 2016)

I will say- this mare has not been seen by a vet since getting her hocks done. I also was told by the owner that they just did a steroid injection....which leads me to wonder if it really is going to be a decent fix for this horse based off how she is acting. In my opinion, steroids often 'hide' the real issue. I personally wouldn't rule out the saddle either, she does try to bite when I am saddling her and adjusting the saddle itself! I also have a deep seat where many young ladies at my barn only ride in the half seat. If there is something wrong with her back that we aren't aware of, I imagine my deep seat is driving her to madness. I have been sitting even deeper due to the bucking that has been escalating. I am generally a very 'gentle' rider, so honestly I can't tell if the horse is trying to bully me, but I used to have a soft hand with her- now it is changing due to her bucking fits and constant spooking and bolting.

We have no turn out due to the 0 degree weather we have here locally- apparently too many young horses were slipping on the hard sand and getting hurt.

There is so little space to lunge as well, so I have not tried that yet due to the fact that we can have nearly 15 people riding at one time and the jumps take up half the arena, leaving very little room for lunging. I'm going to have to ask if someone can help after hours (OR SOMETHING!) just because there is very little space for lunge work when our outdoor arenas are shut down for winter.

She finally launched me today after 4 consecutive BIG bucks. Luckily I landed on my feet. I'm not getting the sense that this is 'I'm so excited and fresh' but rather, 'I'm ****ed'. I let the owner know, but she is out of town so I will speak with the barn owner on getting this horse some extra workout. I think I may have pulled a groin muscle as a result of today, so I really just don't want to deal with battling this mare every single ride going forward. The first bucking fit she had today nearly threw me into the jumps, but I was able to stay on the wrangle her down. 

I'm just at a loss- this mare does not want to work, she has a slow walk & a very lazy trot. I carry a dressage whip to even try to get her to move forward. This attitude makes me feel like she is not fresh, but possibly in pain still. The head shaking has disappeared these past few days, but the bucking has gotten worse. The bucking only shows up at the canter and usually within the first few strides (and always in a circle).


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