# Boarding Feeding Issues



## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

not sure where you are located, but standard practice where i am is minimum 4 flakes a day, split into 2 meals. a flake can be any weight, mind you, but if they are 108# alfalfa bales and about 14 flakes so that's about 7+7 lbs of hay a day, plus a 100# bale of grass hay, which weighs less at about 5 lbs a flake. still they get about 25 lbs of hay a day.


which is 2% of their bodyweight.


if you need more i would suggest supplementing with other fibers, like alfalfa cubes or beet pulp. net the hay so its around all day, but again - hay is not an unlimited resource and must be conserved. as long as they are getting 4 flakes a day it is up to you to supplement your hard keeper, not the barn owner's.


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## DressageDreams (Dec 6, 2015)

thecolorcoal said:


> not sure where you are located, but standard practice where i am is minimum 4 flakes a day, split into 2 meals. a flake can be any weight, mind you, but if they are 108# alfalfa bales and about 14 flakes so that's about 7+7 lbs of hay a day, plus a 100# bale of grass hay, which weighs less at about 5 lbs a flake. still they get about 25 lbs of hay a day.
> 
> 
> which is 2% of their bodyweight.
> ...


The flakes probably weigh anywhere from 3 lbs to 5lbs and it’s Timothy hay. It’s really hard to get alfalfa. He’s probably around 1000lbs but I also need to feed for weight gain, he’s already getting to skinny plus he already has issues with his tummy.

I’ve already upped his grain, he gets 4 cups a day of Buckeye Grow n Win (it’s more of a probiotic/prebiotic). He gets 6 cups a day of Buckeye Cadence Ultra ( high in fat, fibre and all for weight gain) 4 cups a day of alfalfa pellets, ulcer treatment and I soak the grain and add Canola oil. 

^^ that’s split into two feedings.

I’m a believer that they should have access to hay all day especially for a hard keeper and for the times that there’s no grass in the paddocks. He stresses easily so that doesn’t help either.

Also he has been wormed, teeth done and ulcers are good I’m just doing a preventative.


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

DressageDreams said:


> The flakes probably weigh anywhere from 3 lbs to 5lbs and it’s Timothy hay. It’s really hard to get alfalfa. He’s probably around 1000lbs but I also need to feed for weight gain, he’s already getting to skinny plus he already has issues with his tummy.
> 
> I’ve already upped his grain, he gets 4 cups a day of Buckeye Grow n Win (it’s more of a probiotic/prebiotic). He gets 6 cups a day of Buckeye Cadence Ultra ( high in fat, fibre and all for weight gain) 4 cups a day of alfalfa pellets, ulcer treatment and I soak the grain and add Canola oil.
> 
> ...





i understand. mine is/was in the same boat. let's stay on the liberal side and assume the flakes are 5 lbs. so he gets four, right? that
s 5*4 = 20. 


let's say that isn't enough for weight gain. Well, you've maxed out on your hay budget. your personal preferences/beliefs aren't going to help you because your barn owner's don't share them, and they don't have to. they are feeding enough to support THEIR horse. YOUR horse's extra is up to you.


If he needs more weight feed fat. 2 cups of oil. hay cubes. rice bran. there are a ton of solutions.


And I am not talking out of my rear end because i have been here. My horse is a hard keeper and she was getting 12 lbs of hay a day. I made it work and helped her stay in shape with 10lbs hay cubes, 8 lbs grain, and 2 cups of oil. if you feed based on calories you can get quite creative.


My point is that while you may not like their feeding practices, as a boarder you really don't have a choice. If it bothers you that much you need to buy your own hay. That or find a new place to board that feeds at your expectation level.


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

^ the fact that they have a paint and connemara pony says it all. they are _easy keepers_. to think your horse needs special treatment without needing to pay for it is silly. you pay for what is provided for you. extra is going to cost.


wherever i board my horse needs more hay. if the amount is not enough it is my responsibility to supplement the rest. it's kind of the price we pay having thoroughbreds :runninghorse2:


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## Boo Walker (Jul 25, 2012)

Oh that's one of my pet peeves! Good for you for looking for a new place. You already know all the health problems an otherwise healthy horse can develop without adequate forage. Until you move, since you are out there daily anyway, I would buy your own supplemental hay and feed it how you want. Let the owner know this is your hay that you bought - not hers. Then just set the bale out and let your horses go to town. If she retaliates by not feeding any of her hay, I would be doing no more gratis work out there. Make sure your horses are fed and have a clean place to live and no more. Wishing you good luck with a move!


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

I once worked at a barn that fed 2x daily with limited hay. The horses were miserable, colic was a weekly occurrence, and they were constantly treating for ulcers. One horse impacted and died. The owners thought I gave him "too much hay". 

I would never keep my horses in those conditions. The horses all had vices from being stalled. My current horses get unlimited hay except for the easy keepers. They get fed 3x daily in slow feeders.


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

while i don't have much boarding experience not every part of the country has cheap, expendable hay. out here it's 24 a bale. i've heard as little as 3 a bale in some places in the midwest/east coast. 

most barns will feed for easy keepers, as they are more common than hard keepers. owners with hard keepers have to supply their own hay, which isn't a bad thing *it is just how it is.*

if you are paying top dollar for boarding that's one thing, but paying 450 or less for a stall is another. there isn't a single barn in my area that feeds "free choice," as it is just too expensive. it would command 1500+ boarding rates because of how pricey hay is around here. any extra hay your horse needs to fulfill whatever needs you have as an owner is _on your own dollar_.


i get a small bit upset when people blindly claim things *should be* like what they have. what i would give for round bales. 24/7 free choice. all day pasture with stalls and safe fencing that isn't barbed wire. but where i am in the US that just doesn't happen... i live in a desert state that is very populated and open land is scarce. drought is common and grass hays don't grow well, which means it needs to be imported which makes it expensive. so if i want my 24/7 hay dream to come true i have to use my own money... :frown_color:


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## DressageDreams (Dec 6, 2015)

thecolorcoal said:


> ^ the fact that they have a paint and connemara pony says it all. they are _easy keepers_. to think your horse needs special treatment without needing to pay for it is silly. you pay for what is provided for you. extra is going to cost.
> 
> 
> wherever i board my horse needs more hay. if the amount is not enough it is my responsibility to supplement the rest. it's kind of the price we pay having thoroughbreds <img style="max-width:100%;" src="http://www.horseforum.com/images/smilies/runninghorse2.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Runninghorse2" class="inlineimg" />


I do pay for it, I buy all my hay and I do farm work for the board part of it. We definitely do pay having TBs, but I can’t feed the amount of hay he should be getting as she won’t allow anymore then one flake per horse is am and another in pm. It would be easier if I didn't have a full time job and I could bring him in for more hay.


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## seabiscuit91 (Mar 30, 2017)

I would move. 

If you're paying to be somewhere, you should be allowed to feed your horse what you chose. Your horse shouldn't be left starving because their pony is overweight. If they won't be flexible to either split them up/come up with a different plan then you need to move somewhere more accommodating. 

The horse should always come first regardless if it's easy or hard doer.


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## DressageDreams (Dec 6, 2015)

Boo Walker said:


> Oh that's one of my pet peeves! Good for you for looking for a new place. You already know all the health problems an otherwise healthy horse can develop without adequate forage. Until you move, since you are out there daily anyway, I would buy your own supplemental hay and feed it how you want. Let the owner know this is your hay that you bought - not hers. Then just set the bale out and let your horses go to town. If she retaliates by not feeding any of her hay, I would be doing no more gratis work out there. Make sure your horses are fed and have a clean place to live and no more. Wishing you good luck with a move!


Thank you! I forgot to add that I do pay for my hay as well but I still can’t feed it how I’d like to. But because I can’t separate them I have to feed one flake in the am and pm.


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

agree with seabiscuit, they obviously don't really want your kind of horse at their barn and it's pretty clear they are asking you to move with their hay restrictions, because 4 flakes a day would be reasonable for them to supply.


what you are doing is too much work for just 2 flakes a day. i was at a private barn and they did this crap too, wouldn't feed my horse because their *easy keepers* didn't need it so why did i need to make myself seem special? new barn feeds by weight, and if i need more i can purchase through them or buy my own on top of what is supplied.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

It's time for you to find other lodgings. They don't share your philosophies and aren't willing to make adjustments so that you can feed as you desire with feed you have bought and paid for. Since it's not coming out of their pockets, one would assume that it shouldn't matter to them how you feed yours, but obviously they need to control everything. Since you're at an impasse, it's time to go. In the meantime, I would try putting oil on his grain and start adding calories where you can. But I'd get moved PDQ.


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## DressageDreams (Dec 6, 2015)

thecolorcoal said:


> i understand. mine is/was in the same boat. let's stay on the liberal side and assume the flakes are 5 lbs. so he gets four, right? that
> s 5*4 = 20.
> 
> 
> ...


I forgot to add that I do buy my own hay but I can't separate him from her one horse that needs only a flake. I've tried many different options and ideas but she keep resorting back to less hay. If it weren't for the fact that I also work I'd be able to bring him in for more later in the day.


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## DressageDreams (Dec 6, 2015)

seabiscuit91 said:


> I would move.
> 
> If you're paying to be somewhere, you should be allowed to feed your horse what you chose. Your horse shouldn't be left starving because their pony is overweight. If they won't be flexible to either split them up/come up with a different plan then you need to move somewhere more accommodating.
> 
> The horse should always come first regardless if it's easy or hard doer.


I'm officially moving in a week, I'd wait until September first but I'm afraid of how much more weight he could lose in that time. I still have to let her know so we will see how that goes tomorrow. She has always said "my horse is top priority" but mine is also top priority to me. I can't risk him getting sick.


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## DressageDreams (Dec 6, 2015)

thecolorcoal said:


> agree with seabiscuit, they obviously don't really want your kind of horse at their barn and it's pretty clear they are asking you to move with their hay restrictions, because 4 flakes a day would be reasonable for them to supply.
> 
> 
> what you are doing is too much work for just 2 flakes a day. i was at a private barn and they did this crap too, wouldn't feed my horse because their *easy keepers* didn't need it so why did i need to make myself seem special? new barn feeds by weight, and if i need more i can purchase through them or buy my own on top of what is supplied.


The weird part is they need me but more for the work part of it. She's 75 and the husband is 80. It's becoming to much for them so they offered me to work off board and I would just have to pay for the hay. Great set up for me at first since I just moved over 3 hours from where my horse was leased. That way I could have him up here sooner. I honestly think that she's never had a hard keeper (I also made it clear that he was). Just sucks when the agreement we had keeps changing. 

I also feed by weight but I find almost no one in this area does that.


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## DressageDreams (Dec 6, 2015)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> It's time for you to find other lodgings. They don't share your philosophies and aren't willing to make adjustments so that you can feed as you desire with feed you have bought and paid for. Since it's not coming out of their pockets, one would assume that it shouldn't matter to them how you feed yours, but obviously they need to control everything. Since you're at an impasse, it's time to go. In the meantime, I would try putting oil on his grain and start adding calories where you can. But I'd get moved PDQ.


They don't and I believe that they're more old school and not very knowledgeable. I've found another farm and I'll be moving him in a week:smile: 

I have been giving him canola oil, so maybe I'll up his alfalfa pellets until then or try and make it out for an extra feeding in between my work schedule if I can.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

It's good you're moving if the horses can't be separated.

I'm on your side when it comes to your horse, but I'm also on her side when it comes to the Connemara. It was an impossible situation. You're asking her to prioritize your horse's health above hers, and she's asking you to prioritize her horse's health above yours. It might feel more dangerous to her to have her horse founder from too much feed, than to have your horse be thin. It might feel more dangerous to you to have a thin horse than to have her horse overweight.

Neither situation is good for the horse. These types of horses just can't be kept together 24/7. I've had both hard keepers and easy keepers, and during feeding time the horses must to be separated. My easy keeper mare eats 1/4 flake of hay a day and is still chubby (she has access to scrubby grazing 24/7). 
My hard keeper used to need 15 lbs of hay daily plus hard feed (small horse). Of course I could not leave the easy keeper out with the 15 lbs of hay, and of course I could not expect the hard keeper to get by on 1/4 flake of hay.

Our solution is to put the horses out together during the day on pasture, and in separated pens at night so each can be fed according to their needs.

People here are saying the barn owner doesn't have the "right" values, but she actually is valuing the health of her horse so I have to defend her a little bit. But if she is going to have boarders, she needs to also make provision for the health of your horse, by providing a way to separate a hard keeper from an easy keeper.


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## DressageDreams (Dec 6, 2015)

gottatrot said:


> It's good you're moving if the horses can't be separated.
> 
> I'm on your side when it comes to your horse, but I'm also on her side when it comes to the Connemara. It was an impossible situation. You're asking her to prioritize your horse's health above hers, and she's asking you to prioritize her horse's health above yours. It might feel more dangerous to her to have her horse founder from too much feed, than to have your horse be thin. It might feel more dangerous to you to have a thin horse than to have her horse overweight.
> 
> ...


I totally see what your saying, and I was more then willing to come out four times a day if it meant separating them to eat in their stalls. Then the owner changed that and didn't want them in the barn. Doesn't make sense since I was doing the work anyways. Even the paint is starting to become ribby. 

In the end it's just not going to work as she won't allow me to separate them. I just didn't know if I was over reacting, but I know she won't take the news well and that worries me, I'm naturally an over thinker :|


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

The only other possible option, and I'm guessing she won't go for it either, would be to put a grazing muzzle on the Connemara. That way you wouldn't have to separate them and could put out the hay your horses need. I'm guessing she won't go for it though, since she's been so resistant to everything else. You can't starve yours to keep hers from foundering. I have a couple who fall into that "air fern" category and my solution was to build "parking stalls" in the pasture with pipe panels. Everyone goes into their own slot and I close the rope 'gate' and then let them out again when the slowest one is done. But again, $100/panel and I doubt she'd be willing to do that either. So really, your only option is to move and get your horses their own pasture.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

IF you are paying for feed i would tell BO to feed WHAT YOU TELL THEM. Plain and simple. tell them it is your horse and you can make that choice. Also treat him for ulcers with neighlox. my gelding was eating 36lbs of pellets. Half a bail of alfalfa, and 5lbs of strategy a DAY! he was skin and bone still. he would NOT GAIN WEIGHT. he started packing on weight within a week of the neighlox. he now only gets about 45lbs of pellets a day. and he is starting to get chunky.

some before and after pics. the before he has a winter coat on so it dose not help to see how bad he was. He was on all that food for almost 2 1/2 months without much weight gain. the after pic is right after he finished his neighlox and he was getting 3 flake of hay in the net and down to 36lbs of pellets

Note canola oil is not good for people much less horses. i would get corn oil or veg oil. works better and can be absorbed better.


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

Doing all that work and you're not allowed to feed _your_ horse how he _needs_? I've never had to deal with hard keeps myself but as I understand it, it's a million times harder to regain lost condition? Is he in work as well?

Riding a hungry horse. Not down for that >.< Hope you find somewhere asap and don't worry - I'm sure many of us would be that person down the barn several times a day to compensate for some other person's ignorance. GL


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

Sorry, I don't mean for this to sound as it does and is going to....


I'm confused....
You keep referring to your horse being "a hard-keeper" because he doesn't exist well on 2 flakes of a lesser quality hay as timothy is.
Most Thoroughbreds are 1000 pounds of animal if not more so if he is "thinner", needing to gain than throw the 15 - 20% rule in the garbage please.
4 heavy flakes of a T&A might make a difference, but 2 flakes straight timothy.._no._
Thoroughbreds commonly have a higher metabolism = needing more correct feed stuffs and calories fed in than they burn off a day just being a horse.
If you can't feed more than 2 flakes* a day *per horse confuses me how if you are feeding all animals together you are even assured your horse gets his share of only 1 flake per feeding not less not more than the others...
If you're there daily working in the barn then why during that time are you not bringing in your horse and feeding him more hay or food then?
Your present situation is *not* working for your horse...
You need to get it through to these people your horse requires more food fed daily, every single day or you will need to look for another barn to go to so your horses needs for adequate amounts for his body are met.
I would say get slow feed nets and use them but that still does not fix the amount is _not enough for your horse._

So, I just did some looking at the Buckeye feeding site to see what it is and what you are feeding...
First thing that bothers me is you are feeding by cups from your own words,_ "I’ve already upped his grain, he gets 4 cups a day of Buckeye Grow n Win (it’s more of a probiotic/prebiotic). He gets 6 cups a day of Buckeye Cadence Ultra ( high in fat, fibre and all for weight gain) 4 cups a day of alfalfa pellets, ulcer treatment and I soak the grain and add Canola oil"_
*All food is fed by weight, not volume.*
Next is Grow n Win is a ration balancer...to me that means that horse would be fed as it was before with a unlimited supply of hay/grazing abilities daily.
Your Cadence Ultra is again, a feed but not fed correctly.
You can not expect a horse to thrive when it is not fed enough food. _Period._
Here are the links to those feeding charts...
 _https://www.buckeyenutrition.com/products/gro-n-win 
__https://www.buckeyenutrition.com/products/cadence-ultra-sweet-pelleted-feed_
I based my information off the 800 - 1100 pound horse in intense levels of work since yours needs weight gained then you feed at premium levels...
No where from hay amounts fed to feed amounts fed are you..._you are just way off in amounts._
If you are providing the food, then feed the horse to thrive.
That horse would be eating 22+ pounds of hay a day...
That horse would be fed near 3 pounds of Gro n Win ration balancer...
That horse would be fed 14 pounds of Cadence Ultra...
Break those feed amounts down into several meals fed and the hay in hay nets so near continuous is available unsoiled from the ground.
You're feeding maybe 1/4 of what the horse needs to thrive, the bare minimums...it is on a downward spiral not even maintaining anymore but losing its health.
You see it and you truly already know what is needed to fix the situation.
Either feed more food or move the horse someplace it will be fed in adequate amounts for its size and weight _it should be_ not what it is weighing currently.

I  actually don't care about "age of the barn owners"... its _not_ a excuse.
If they are going to have animals on their land then they must realize that you can not feed a horse being ridden or worked the same amount of food a small pony or another horse who is not ridden and exercised daily. 
That is wrong of them _and _wrong of you to accept their way of doing.
Each animal is a individual and must be fed as such.
If you are truly purchasing your foods, then it should make no difference to them that your horse is stabled and fed feed and extra hay as needed, as much as is needed when you are present to also return the horse to the paddock space when done eating.
You're doing the work and affording the expense so it is not costing them anything is it?
Shouldn't be if this deal works the way you say...
If on the other hand they have a set amount they will feed at their expense then you need to step up and afford the cost and take the responsibility to purchase the extra food needed for your horse to gain and thrive....
If they refuse to allow you to feed more food then there is no option but to move your horse, period.
Your other option is in time you will lose your horse to seizure for neglect by law enforcement agencies...
That isn't what you want so be pro-active and stop what you see is happening.
Either get them to see reason and allow your horse to be fed more at_ your expense_, or you will move to another facility where adequate food will be fed. 
They can resume the care of their animals and facility you now do for them for a roof and fenced area for your horse to stand in as you pay for the food your horse is eating...they can then do it all by themselves.
That is a ultimatum, yes indeed it is. 
A ultimatum though you may need to put to them and their decision that you live with.
You need your horse to thrive and that means it is fed properly not fed by like comparison to a small pony and or inactive horse.
Only you can advocate for your horse to be healthy and thrive...currently that isn't happening. :frown_color:
:runninghorse2:...
_jmo..._


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Kiger actually canola is the better choice but still there is question about how much O3 is able to be utilized as it is unclear how much conversion from ALA to EPA and DHA occurs. Corn and veg are O6 which is inflammatory. Unless your horse is on good grass then they are not getting the 03 they need and if you add anything to that grass diet then you upset the balance in favor of O6 unless you add O3. It may be more expensive but several of the a powdered fat supplements would have the O3 needed.



The food is paid for by the OP. The OP does all the work (maintenance, feeding, etc.) in trade for board as the OP is elderly. The Connemara has worn a muzzle in the past if I read correctly but I assume the owner decided that was not an option. 



It is a sad situation for all. The BO won't have the help they need, the Connie won't have company or someone to provide basic care, the OP loses what could have been an ideal situation close to home. Had the BO been more willing to allow for separation outside at least overnight to give the other two the opportunity to eat unlimited amounts for at least part of the day they could have all benefitted. Now the OP will likely be paying board and feed, be further from home but at least her horses have each other and would have others where they end up for companionship.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

DressageDreams said:


> I’ve already upped his grain, he gets 4 cups a day of Buckeye Grow n Win (it’s more of a probiotic/prebiotic). He gets 6 cups a day of Buckeye Cadence Ultra ( high in fat, fibre and all for weight gain) 4 cups a day of alfalfa pellets, ulcer treatment and I soak the grain and add Canola oil.


I'm not 100% on the cup to LBS conversion, but that doesn't sound like enough grain. I have a hard keeper and fees him the exact same, gro n win + Cadence ultra. I'm limited in the # of feedings so he was getting his max in a single feeding. 

Cadence ultra is a min of 5LBS for a horse in no work maintaining weight. My horse (and probably yours) needs closer to 8LBS. Gro n win can be subbed in at 1lb for every 3 LBS. That's what I ended up doing to reduce feed volume, and added oil to make up the calorie loss. Plus a 3+qt scoop of soaked BP. Plus 6qt of Alf cubes at his worse. My problem was also a lack of forage as he was also living with some very easy keepers, this kept him barely adequate through winter. 

A 3 qt scoop(which I use) is about 12 cups. I give a full 3qts of Cadence ultra and ~2 qt gro n win. (Had it all weighed out, but have since lowered him to a summer weight, so I forget exactly) 

* just found my notes, both gro n win and cadence ultra sit at just under 1qt per lb. 

So 6 cups of ultra is 1.5qt = barely 2LBS, way under the recommended feed rate. 

4 cups gro n win = 0.75 qt, which is just adequate for a average sized horse in maintenance.


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

for my hard keeper on just 12 lbs of hay (and yes 99% of places out here do NOT weigh, they just pull flakes off the truck and toss into the stall), i managed to get an average weight by coming up in the morning, netting the flakes and using a scale to measure. we did this to keep her at least in adequate condition:

AM: 7 lbs alfalfa, would come up and soak beet pulp

Afternoon (i worked close by) - 4 lbs soaked beet pulp, 3 lbs safechoice senior, 2 lbs rice bran, another 2 lbs beep to soak - 2 extra flakes of hay from hay bale I PROVIDED

evening: 5 lbs grass hay - 3 lbs safechoice senior - 1lbs rice bran, 2 lbs beep, bucket of 10 lb alf cubes for overnight snacking - 2 extra flakes of hay from hay bale I PROVIDED.

This kept her at 1000, even though her ideal weight is 1200. it wasn't perfect but it was manageable. She was moody and grumpy because she went 4 hours with nothing to eat after inhaling her dinner, and by the time i got to the barn she was pacing and nickering for food.

but it was EXPENSIVE. VERY. VERY. VERY EXPENSIVE. I think my feed bill was in the 150-200 range a month.

We eventually moved because her misery and minimum weight was not worth the time, money and energy spent.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

I left one place because they would not feed the food that I bought. They kept giving mine the sweet feed that they fed theirs no matter how much talking I did on the subject. After that place, I was in another for a month and a half and ran from there as they would feed their horse my hay when I wasn't looking otherwise she went hungry. Leaving an injured calf out there for for three days with no medical attention or euthanasia until it died left a super bad taste in my mouth so I left and then reported them. Have no idea if anything was done. I forgot to mention that I had to wade through a flooded field full of water moccasins to get to my horses. Seriously, it was like being in an Indiana Jones movie. Originally, they (my horses, not the snakes) were supposed to be on another part of the farm but the owners changed that after I got there.

It's hard to find a decent place let alone a place that has similar way of doing things as yourself. You have to pick and choose your battles, but the horse shouldn't be starving because people can't get it together on how to care for it.


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

@*LoriF* , i've definitely found self/partial care a better situation, personal control-wise, than full care. a lot of full care barns (boarded at one, ridden as a lessoner at several) don't give a crap what you want if it's not in line with their current routine. now, i've only had 1 full care experience but it was so bad that it's definitely made me suspicious of future opportunities for full care...


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

thecolorcoal said:


> @*LoriF* , i've definitely found self/partial care a better situation, personal control-wise, than full care. a lot of full care barns (boarded at one, ridden as a lessoner at several) don't give a crap what you want if it's not in line with their current routine. now, i've only had 1 full care experience but it was so bad that it's definitely made me suspicious of future opportunities for full care...


The first and one place that I was at that was full care I actually really liked but the B/O was big on equine nutrition. She boarded about thirty horses on 300 acres Pasture board and Stall with turnout board. Mine were pasture boarded but the pastures had covered stalls in them for feeding purposes only. Things only started going south when she couldn't keep a manager and decided to manage it herself and have teens do the work. That's another whole book to write about.
Since then, and where I've been at for about four or five years, it's self care. But the B/O helps me out when I can't be there and I help her when she can't be there. For the most part, it's been working out minus a few problems that got taken care of. I really do like self care the best, but I like to know what is going on with my horses. If something goes wrong with their health, it's a lot easier to figure out when it is you doing all of the care.


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## DressageDreams (Dec 6, 2015)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> The only other possible option, and I'm guessing she won't go for it either, would be to put a grazing muzzle on the Connemara. That way you wouldn't have to separate them and could put out the hay your horses need. I'm guessing she won't go for it though, since she's been so resistant to everything else. You can't starve yours to keep hers from foundering. I have a couple who fall into that "air fern" category and my solution was to build "parking stalls" in the pasture with pipe panels. Everyone goes into their own slot and I close the rope 'gate' and then let them out again when the slowest one is done. But again, $100/panel and I doubt she'd be willing to do that either. So really, your only option is to move and get your horses their own pasture.


I already tried that one, she was wearing a muzzle up until the grass died off. Now she doesn't want it on her and even with it on she still thinks she would get to much hay. I already bought some electric fencing and was going to divide the paddock, but after more thinking I figured for what i'm spending now I can spend that money on boarding somewhere that I don't have to do the work, has an indoor,a sand ring and I'd have more time to ride. Plus 24/7 hay. He moves next weds.


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## DressageDreams (Dec 6, 2015)

KigerQueen said:


> IF you are paying for feed i would tell BO to feed WHAT YOU TELL THEM. Plain and simple. tell them it is your horse and you can make that choice. Also treat him for ulcers with neighlox. my gelding was eating 36lbs of pellets. Half a bail of alfalfa, and 5lbs of strategy a DAY! he was skin and bone still. he would NOT GAIN WEIGHT. he started packing on weight within a week of the neighlox. he now only gets about 45lbs of pellets a day. and he is starting to get chunky.
> 
> some before and after pics. the before he has a winter coat on so it dose not help to see how bad he was. He was on all that food for almost 2 1/2 months without much weight gain. the after pic is right after he finished his neighlox and he was getting 3 flake of hay in the net and down to 36lbs of pellets
> 
> Note canola oil is not good for people much less horses. i would get corn oil or veg oil. works better and can be absorbed better.


Trust me I've tried, but unfortunately after many attempts and different ideas I was constantly getting turned down. I've told her today that I will be moving in a week as my horses health is a priority for me. He is also already being treated for ulcers as I saw him starting to show signs of it a couple weeks ago. Huge improvement on your horse! I did use vegetable oil before but wanted to use up the canola oil, I'll probably switch back. Was looking into starting him on Aloe vera oil to.


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## DressageDreams (Dec 6, 2015)

Kalraii said:


> Doing all that work and you're not allowed to feed _your_ horse how he _needs_? I've never had to deal with hard keeps myself but as I understand it, it's a million times harder to regain lost condition? Is he in work as well?
> 
> Riding a hungry horse. Not down for that >.< Hope you find somewhere asap and don't worry - I'm sure many of us would be that person down the barn several times a day to compensate for some other person's ignorance. GL


Yup so therefore I will take him somewhere that he can be better taken care of. I'm not putting my horse in a situation where his health is at risk. He just burns off everything pretty quickly, he stresses easily so that doesn't help either. Completely chill horse but super low on the pecking order. It's a lot easier for them to lose weight quickly and it can take a lot more time to put the weight back on. That's why I didn't want to wait until Sept 1st to move him as I'm to concerned as to what another months time could do. I'm now moving him next week on Aug 1st.


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

DressageDreams said:


> Yup so therefore I will take him somewhere that he can be better taken care of. I'm not putting my horse in a situation where his health is at risk. He just burns off everything pretty quickly, he stresses easily so that doesn't help either. Completely chill horse but super low on the pecking order. It's a lot easier for them to lose weight quickly and it can take a lot more time to put the weight back on. That's why I didn't want to wait until Sept 1st to move him as I'm to concerned as to what another months time could do. I'm now moving him next week on Aug 1st.



i did the same thing for mine. she was losing weight no matter how hard i tried to supplement. she was fit and muscular because of how much she was ridden but quickly deteriorated back to her racing weight...


we gave 7 days notice and left that weekend.


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## DressageDreams (Dec 6, 2015)

horselovinguy said:


> Sorry, I don't mean for this to sound as it does and is going to....
> 
> 
> I'm confused....
> ...


Just a tad.

If I was able to I would get mixed hay with alfalfa, instead I'm having to substitute with the pellets.
Trust me when I say that I've talked to them on multiple occasions as well as a few other people have. It's not going to work when she's so set in her ways. I would leave him in to eat more hay but they only have time to come in for their grain and back out for hay as I have to head out for work. She also wants them outside and not inside or I'd still be doing that. I wish I was able to come more often that way I can split up meals as that would be way better for him.

I told her this morning that I'm leaving in a week as it comes down to what is best for my horse as well.

I do feed by weight not by volume. I have a small scale with me for every time I feed. He's only been there for two months as of Aug 1st. The first couple of weeks weren't a problem but now it has drastically changed since then. For alfalfa pellets what would you recommend to feed? There's no directions on the bag but I also don't want to give him to much.

I'm currently feeding: (he's also not being worked currently).

2lbs of Grow n Win
10lbs Of Cadence Ultra (Gradually Increasing)
10lbs or less of Timothy hay
4lbs of Alfalfa Pellets

I am advocating for my horse, it's not like I'm sitting around doing nothing. I've added more feed, talked to a nutritionist and on a daily basis I'm throwing ideas to the other owner only to be turned down. My horse is my priority and I won't allow him to get to the point where his health is at risk..like I've said he's moving next week to a place that always has hay and larger grass paddocks.

I needed to hear clarification that I'm not wrong in this situation, and not once was I okay with the amount of hay getting fed. I was curious as to the amount of hay that others feed their hard keepers. I was trying to problem solve what I could. I made it known and I've now had to come to that decision of leaving being the best solution as there's nothing I seem to be allowed to do. I've tried and I've wasted time trying to problem solve. 

I honestly wish he could get fat on air like the pony, but your're completely right when it comes to comparing my horse to the Connemara pony..it's just not right, they have different needs and they aren't a good match together. If they could be separated then that would be the only logical way for it to work but unfortunately that's not an option either and I'm not spending the extra money when I can move him some where better for a better cost to :smile:


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## DressageDreams (Dec 6, 2015)

QtrBel said:


> Kiger actually canola is the better choice but still there is question about how much O3 is able to be utilized as it is unclear how much conversion from ALA to EPA and DHA occurs. Corn and veg are O6 which is inflammatory. Unless your horse is on good grass then they are not getting the 03 they need and if you add anything to that grass diet then you upset the balance in favor of O6 unless you add O3. It may be more expensive but several of the a powdered fat supplements would have the O3 needed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Should I keep him on the Canola? I think that's honestly the only thing I haven't done much research on. I was debating on adding the Aloe Vera as well since he has had ulcers in the past.

It's a very unfortunate situation for both of us, I will have to pay board but over time I wont have to pay as much on feed so it will work out pretty even in the end. Plus the barn is only 10 mins from home rather then 2 mins. So still pretty ideal. I'll have a sand ring and indoor so I won't have to worry about not riding in the winter and I can continue to train and coach.

I think it's a win and my horse will be able to eat as much hay as he wants, therefore he won't have to stress until the next feeding.


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## DressageDreams (Dec 6, 2015)

ApuetsoT said:


> I'm not 100% on the cup to LBS conversion, but that doesn't sound like enough grain. I have a hard keeper and fees him the exact same, gro n win + Cadence ultra. I'm limited in the # of feedings so he was getting his max in a single feeding.
> 
> Cadence ultra is a min of 5LBS for a horse in no work maintaining weight. My horse (and probably yours) needs closer to 8LBS. Gro n win can be subbed in at 1lb for every 3 LBS. That's what I ended up doing to reduce feed volume, and added oil to make up the calorie loss. Plus a 3+qt scoop of soaked BP. Plus 6qt of Alf cubes at his worse. My problem was also a lack of forage as he was also living with some very easy keepers, this kept him barely adequate through winter.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you definitely were in a similar situation.

I do feed by weight and I have a scale in the feed room. 

I'm currently feeding:

2lbs Grow n Win
10lbs Cadence Ultra (Gradually increasing)
10lbs or less of Timothy Hay
4lbs Alfalfa cubes
Canola Oil and an ulcer preventative


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## DressageDreams (Dec 6, 2015)

thecolorcoal said:


> for my hard keeper on just 12 lbs of hay (and yes 99% of places out here do NOT weigh, they just pull flakes off the truck and toss into the stall), i managed to get an average weight by coming up in the morning, netting the flakes and using a scale to measure. we did this to keep her at least in adequate condition:
> 
> AM: 7 lbs alfalfa, would come up and soak beet pulp
> 
> ...


Definitely expensive, on grain and the supplement I'm over $300 a month now. I agree exactly It's just not worth my time or my horses health.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

DressageDreams said:


> Sounds like you definitely were in a similar situation.
> 
> I do feed by weight and I have a scale in the feed room.
> 
> ...


Those numbers sound much more adequate. Forage really is #1 though. I'm also moving my horse soon to a place I hope he will do better at over winter. He'll get a round bale vs being forked hay 4x a day plus extra grain feedings are baseline. 

Here's hoping we both do better.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

What you write of is good...working with a nutritionist is fantastic...
We still tend to do lop-sided, to heavy here not enough there in our innocence.

What you are feeding is better but far from where it needs to be for the horse to really thrive.
I'm glad you have decided to leave for another barn where the horse should be fed a better diet.
Alfalfa is said to help keep ulcers at bay so that I would leave or increase if possible, soak the cubes so they are easier digested and not so apt to dry in the intestinal tract and create a impaction issue.
Timothy is a nice grass hay but is_ not_ calorie dense so more is needed when you have a weight issue and trying to increase and do a weight gain.
I don't see a point in doing a ration balancer when you are feeding proper amounts of feed...
Maybe I'm missing something that is special about that ration balancer but the horse is _not_ on pasture grazing his nutrients...your horse is also _not_ on a forage-first diet and that is what this is for.
Myself, I would cut that out.
I'm also not a fan of a feed whose 4th listed ingredient is corn which many horses have problems with digesting and benefiting from.
Maybe your horse would do better with a feed made along the lines of senior feeds...many are beet pulp main ingredient based.
I honestly would look into that type of feed...
Many senior feeds can be fed alone, fed in proper amount _no hay is needed_ and the horse can and will thrive, gain weight and lead a "normal" life.
Rescues, many of them feed senior feeds and alfalfa...nothing else to recovering skin an bones animals.
Since you feed this brand of food... their EQ8 Senior Gut Health is something I would look into.
I'm not crazy about it, but this brand is what I guess is readily available to feed.
Now you only need to buy this one bag of feed though.
No more Cadence or Grow n Win, nor oil, nor pre/probiotics cause it is all in EQ8 premixed in proper amounts.
This is a scoop and feed...easy. 
1 bag every 3 days = 10 bags per month.
By me, that gives you a quantity discount advantage & price reduced...
You still need hay and you still need those alfalfa cubes or pellets fed with this particular senior feed .
It though may save you a few $$ a month and make it easier to feed one "feed" product to measure out than some of this, some of that and then something else...
My thought is maybe a different style of food would benefit the horse too...senior is manufactured differently so nutrients are easier absorbed.
Do look at other manufacturers food lines too....they may have better choices for your horse to regain lost weight and be healthier.

:think::think: ..Then again, you _are_ leaving and going to a new barn...
If you are going to a full board situation, then foods fed will now be the responsibility of that establishment, not yours.
If it still remains that you provide and feed....you need to stay with what you are doing as you move.
Once the move is done and horse settled then I would be changing over some diet items if this horse was mine.
If you could find T&A hay, I would buy it and drop the cubes...offering more hay.
In the end, you pay a bit more per bale of hay but not need to spend $14.00 per 40 pound bag of alfalfa cubes {cost by me}so pretty equal, the horse though benefits from more forage to eat. :clap:
And yes, it would be fed from slow-feed hay nets so it last longer and research shows horses absorb more of the nutrients when the digestive tract has a slower but steady input of food fed to it.
Studies also show that less hay is consumed and better results from what is fed occurs too.
So if you increased hay quantity and quality...right there the horse would be doing better in calories fed.
Of course, make sure the teeth are good, and no worms.
Your horse just might do better not having to worry and fret about sharing his food with others...that by itself can cause stress and worry = weight loss to happen from that too.

_I wish you the best._
I know again this is a time of transition and change, but you know your horse and knew from the B/O attitude this was no longer going to work, hard as you tried, it just wasn't working and getting worse.
I'm glad you advocated for your horse and took the step to stop the bad and regain all the good you had. :smile:
:runninghorse2:...
_jmo..._


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Yea, slipped ny mind but why are tou feeding gro n win if you are feeding 10LBS of ultra? Ultra is formulated on gro n win so you are still getting all the benefits of gro n win plus the extra calories. The only reason I feed them together is because I can't reach the minimum daily feed level in a single feeding.


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