# Food Aggressive Horse



## nicfish (Aug 14, 2012)

Problem - My horse that I have had almost a year (May 11!) is food aggressive.

Backround info - When we got Splash, he was a little is grumpy towards people when eating hay and especially grain. He would pin his ears, stomp his back feet, and sometimes would charge. He would never bite though. 

We treated him for ulcers, because he was in 8 homes since the age of two since we got him (he was 5). The treating of ulcers helped with his working attitude. 

Ever since we got Splash, he has had training issues to re-train him in - which is fine, but we waited on the food aggressiveness until he had more groundwork and respect for us first. 

We put him on Succeed, a digestive conditioning supplement to help prevent ulcers or anything else like that. This also helped with his temperament.

Splash is a total different horse with his halter and lead on when he is eating. He doesn't care if you are petting him, blanketing, ect. Even with grain.

Over the months, he would get into the habit of "snake heading" at people and biting the air, never people. We would patiently wait for him to stop and then reward him by walking away or praising with pets.

When Splash gets grain or hay my trainer and I always wait for him to perk his ears and stand. This habit has made him less jittery and mad when feeding. 

What Splash is doing now - Splash this morning got fed hay, and the man that fed Splash walked to the next horse and fed him too. Everything was fine. The man walked back past Splash's stall and Splash lunged out and bite him in the shoulder. Thankfully the man had a sweatshirt on so he was OK. 

Splash is getting worse, when we first got him he only threatened, now he is lunging and biting. 

Any ideas???


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

its nice that you wait til his ears are up and he stands quietly to offer his food, but since he never seems to have any negative consequences to the clacking of teeth, and worse, the snaking of the head, then he has no reason to quit that.

you might need to change your approach and stop that behavior when it starts , instead of waiting for him to decide to give it up and allowing him to do it for an interlude.

Chris Irwin has some great videos on how to deal with a food aggressive horse. Chris is a very patient trainer and does not use aggressive training techniques, but still gets results. He uses a stick and will interrupt the horse's aggressive thought very early on, before it even gets anywhere near to actually biting. this is the way to go, not to allow them to develop so far into actualy snaking and biting. believe me, the horse is thinking about it, and it will be evident in his body language, long before acting onit. When he starts thinking about it is the time to interrupt that, and make that something unpleasant to continue, for the horse.


----------



## bbsmfg3 (Aug 12, 2010)

Dear Splash needs a major attitude adjustment, and you're not the one
to give it to him. This behavior could kill you, or anyone near him, in
a heart beat. Just imagine his bite to the feeder, being the feeder's head and not
his shoulder.(dead feeder). A horse like this can crush a human skull
instantly.

What's worse, you are aware of his problem and have made your parents liable for any damage he may cause. 

I don't agree with beating horse's, but in this case, a proper belt at the right time is far over due.

Either get rid of the horse or find a trainer that can fix it before you have
the accident, that is waiting to happen. It is not a matter of, if, but rather, when.

Don't mean to be mean about it, but a teenage girl's live is much more
important than this horse.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I am certainly another who believes in sorting this sort of behaviour head on.

I would _never ever_ ignore the food aggression 'until the ground manners and respect' were better. It would have been the first thing I addressed.

I would have gone into his stable with his feed. The moment he came at me with his ears back or snaking his head, he would have got the feed - in the bucket - wrapped across his nose. My follow through would be to then go into attack mode and chase him so he was moving backwards around the stable with me kicking the bucket so he kept hitting it with his legs.
Then I would pick up the bucket and walk put. He had his feed and he could jolly well find it in his bed.

That is it. Done correctly one session would be enough and bet your bottom dollar he would stand back next time I walked in with his food. 

I will always address any problem as it arises. if there are several then I will take on the worse - once that is sorted the others frequently disappear.


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Since he's now to the point of having attacked a human, put him down. I don't believe in retraining a horse that will attack a human. You had your chance to fix the problem before it got this far and you (your trainer very definitely included) failed to address it timely and in my barn it would be a death sentence. He's now a huge liability to you, your trainer, your parents and the barn owner. The next one he bites may not be so lucky as to only have an injured sweatshirt and could end up suing the fire out of everyone involved with this horse.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Since he's now to the point of having attacked a human, put him down. I don't believe in retraining a horse that will attack a human. You had your chance to fix the problem before it got this far and you (your trainer very definitely included) failed to address it timely and in my barn it would be a death sentence. He's now a huge liability to you, your trainer, your parents and the barn owner. The next one he bites may not be so lucky as to only have an injured sweatshirt and could end up suing the fire out of everyone involved with this horse.


I think this is way over the top. It is not a major issue and can easily enough be sorted.

I ask you in all seriousness, would you put down a foal that attacked a human?


----------



## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

Judging from this history (http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/5-year-old-horse-needs-respect-146564/), this horse has a very dangerous nature. The only thing worse than a horse with food aggression is a horse that will go after you on a longe line. This horse needs the fear of god put into him or put out or put down.

You bet your butt if my yearling ever intentionally attacked me on the longeline or in her stall her butt would be out on the street. Some horses are just born with nasty attitudes regardless of previous training. You either treat these horses like stallions or get rid of them. 

I always give myself permission to be twice as nasty to a nasty horse. You better bet if a horse ever offered to bite me, that horse would fear for his short life. But I've owned an aggressive horse before, and they are frankly exhausting. You _always_ have to be on your toes and you _always_ have to be disciplining them to keep them in order. I likened it to my horse being in the military and I was a drill sargeant. 

Now I have a horse with a very pleasant attitude and she is a joy to work with every day. Life is too short to grind through that nasty behavior day after day.


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Foxhunter said:


> I think this is way over the top. It is not a major issue and can easily enough be sorted.
> 
> I ask you in all seriousness, would you put down a foal that attacked a human?


This is a full grown horse (5 years old) with MAJOR respect and aggression issues. You can consider it "not a major issue" but I feel it is a HUGE issue for me. I won't tolerate an aggressive horse and if I had a boarder with an aggressive horse, they would have to move forthwith. 

A FOAL is not a full grown horse with a track record. It's not the same conversation at all.


----------



## bbsmfg3 (Aug 12, 2010)

"I would have gone into his stable with his feed. The moment he came at me with his ears back or snaking his head, he would have got the feed - in the bucket - wrapped across his nose. My follow through would be to then go into attack mode and chase him so he was moving backwards around the stable with me kicking the bucket so he kept hitting it with his legs.
Then I would pick up the bucket and walk put. He had his feed and he could jolly well find it in his bed."

And with most of these, you'd be the looser. Your method borders on insanity and, a will, to leave this world.

If your going to fix horses like this, you stay out of their reach while doing it. Believe me, I've been there and done that, and it is no picnic.


----------



## Mochachino (Aug 14, 2012)

Get an experienced person who knows what they are doing to help you through these issues, or eventually you are going to get hurt. It may take a couple of sessions to give you the skills and knowledge to deal with these issues, or it may take more than a couple, but it is worth it for your safety and for the horse as well.


----------



## nicfish (Aug 14, 2012)

Splash is FULLY respectable of people now. Because of moving so much when he was so young, he didn't trust ANYONE. Just this past couple months we have gotton his trust back - not quite 100% - but very close. 

He didn't "attack" the man, he simply bit him. I know biting is very dangerous. I have had an experience with a bad biting. The horse lunged at me for no reason and made a cut on my chest through three layers of clothes. I was at a distance where the horse shouldn't have been able to touch me.

I WILL NOT put him down or sell him. The reason he doesn't trust people is because no one spent the time to fix these problems. I was asking for tecniques from people to help me with him - not people saying "put him down, hes a danger to the barn". 

For people with advice - We have learned that you need to work with Splash, not fight him. Yes, we do correct him on bad habits/behaviors. He knows what he can do and what he can't. We do have boundries with him. 

Hope this clears some things up.


----------



## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Why mess with a horse when it's eating? It's his time to enjoy his food. He's been waiting for it and wants to be left alone. He thinks you're trying to take it away. This behaviour often shows up with stalled horses.


----------



## nicfish (Aug 14, 2012)

I understand what you are saying Saddlebag. The reason for me is because when people walk up to him to pet him or if I walk up to him to bring him to the cross-ties to ride, stuff like that.


----------



## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

Saddlebag said:


> Why mess with a horse when it's eating? It's his time to enjoy his food. He's been waiting for it and wants to be left alone. He thinks you're trying to take it away. This behaviour often shows up with stalled horses.


Because I believe the person was walking by the window when the horse struck out.

"Splash is FULLY respectable of people now." No, he's not, he bit a person. 

"He didn't "attack" the man, he simply bit him." There is nothing "simple" about biting a person. That is a very detestable offense that could get you sued if he bit someone else, or even a child wandering through the barn that didn't know any better.

Are you able to close the window at feeding time? I would do that and dance around in front of his window while he eats like a crazy person. He can charge at the bars if he wants, but eventually he'll probably choose just to eat his food and ignore you. 

I just feel bad for the thousands of other rescue horses nobody wants to work with who have perfectly pleasant attitudes going to waste.


----------



## nicfish (Aug 14, 2012)

And the previous forum topic was before we found out that he is a horse that needs to be worked WITH, not fought with for dominance.


----------



## nicfish (Aug 14, 2012)

The stall he is currently in has dutch doors, so no I cannot shut the doors while he is eating and dance in front of him. I stand in front of the stall out of reach, but not too far away, and wait until he is calmed down and gives me perky ears.


----------



## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

When you approach his stall with grain, watch his behaviour and the moment he's doing anything beside waiting patiently, turn your back and slowly walk away. Take a quick peak to see that he's doing. He'll be confused and may try a few other tricks to get your attention. Be sure to go at least 20' away. Keep your back to him, sneaking quick peaks. Only when he's standing quietly do you approach the stall. If he starts up again, turn your back and walk away again. Spend the time it takes now and for the next few days. Do not pet him. He wants to be fed, not touched. He may test you in a week or two, because horses do, but just turn and walk away again. That's usually the end of it.


----------



## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

nicfish said:


> The stall he is currently in has dutch doors, so no I cannot shut the doors while he is eating and dance in front of him. I stand in front of the stall out of reach, but not too far away, and wait until he is calmed down and gives me perky ears.


It sounds like you have it figured out.

Maybe you should look up clicker training.


----------



## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

you could try having a trained person lay him down?

i was charged by miover while rugging him while eating, he took my sleave cuff off, it took me a couple of days to go back in and rug him while eating, he now pins ears and looks at me, and yell "UHHHHH" and raise both arms and step towards him,
this morning i unrugged him while eating, not a single ear pin
if i go in there and expect he is going to ear pin, he picks it up and will do it, this morning i went in there with no thought of him doing it, he was relaxed and not a single ear pin, didnt even sway side to side.

so maybe u could try the same thing, walk in there as nothing is going to happen, rather then waiting for the ear pin do ur dutys as if nothing will happen


----------



## nicfish (Aug 14, 2012)

The tactic I am using is very similar to what you are saying Saddlebag! 

TBlover, I do walk in and act like nothings happening type of thing - when we first got him I didn't have the skills and patience, but I have learned. I am not quite sure what you mean by "You could try having a trained person lay him down?"...


----------



## Sharpie (May 24, 2009)

Quite frankly, I don't give two shakes on it a horse trusts me or not when I walk down the aisle of the barn. Couldn't care less. What I do care about is that someone doesn't have a horse so dangerous it's going to attack and bite me, potentially causing serious injury, when I do something so simple and innocent as walk by. If the horse is eating or has food has zero bearing . You can bet you'd be paying my hospital bills and for all the missed work for every bit of damage your horse did me.

I know you have had this horse a while. In that time, you have not made this horse safe for society. Either get this horse trained so it's not a danger to people who happen to be nearby or euthanize it. Any less and you're taking serious risks with other people's lives. YOU may tolerate a dangerous horse, but most people won't, including the law when it comes to liability questions.


----------



## nicfish (Aug 14, 2012)

The reason I posted this is for tactics to use when I walk up to him, to try to pet him or something like that, not when feeding time.


----------



## nicfish (Aug 14, 2012)

Sharpie said:


> I know you have had this horse a while. In that time, you have not made this horse safe for society. Either get this horse trained so it's not a danger to people who happen to be nearby or euthanize it. Any less and you're taking serious risks with other people's lives. YOU may tolerate a dangerous horse, but most people won't, including the law when it comes to liability questions.


Please read above - in my previous posts.


----------



## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

i dont know how well the laying the horse down tactics work but trainers will lay an aggressive horse down, as its vulnerable, and rub him up and down fpor a while, then when horses get up,






heres a demo of it


----------



## nicfish (Aug 14, 2012)

I have heard of that, but I don't want to make him lay down, or lose his trust doing that. The other day for the very first time I saw him sleeping in turnout (laying down), and he let me pet him!


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Nicfish,

I did not realize this horse had displayed such aggressive behaviors before, and for some time. I thought this was a one time incident, which is bad enough in itself. 
I would not say you need to euthanize the horse yet, but I think you should stop kidding yourself that this is just a small thing and only happens once in awhile. Finding out more about this horse and you, I can see that this is much more deeply fundamental to his overall attitude toward humans, and you brushing it off will not help him or you.

you cannot approach it as "we have to find a way to deal with him for feeding, becasue that's when the problem arises". The problem is there ALL the time. 
I think you may need to seek out a trainer who has experience with aggresive horses, and you may need to be willing to completely overhaul the way you approach him. No excuses for his behavior, and no exceptions to your requirement of good behavior ALL the time.


----------



## nicfish (Aug 14, 2012)

The PREVIOUS thread that I posted was a mistake to post. I did not full yunderstand his trust issues. 

When Splash didn't trust anyone, it is like asking someone that has a school phobia to go to school. You would get scared, then defensive, and then shut down. This is very similar to what Splash did IN THE PAST. That problem is FIXED.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

So he never pins his ears at you or lunges at you in the round pen, or "hops" when you are doing things with him? Only pins and snakes his head at folks feeding him, and bites suddenly someone who passes his stall at feeding time?


----------



## nicfish (Aug 14, 2012)

Pretty much. It is only in his stall when he has food. You open his door completly and he is better, you put his halter and lead or take him out, different horse.


----------



## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

this video of warrick schiller may help


----------



## nicfish (Aug 14, 2012)

The is the same thing I do except I don't walk away, I just stand there.


----------



## CowboyBob (Feb 11, 2013)

nicfish said:


> I have heard of that, but I don't want to make him lay down, or lose his trust doing that. The other day for the very first time I saw him sleeping in turnout (laying down), and he let me pet him!


If done right laying a horse down will not cause the lose of trust it can be a very good expearance for someone that knows how.

Now for one fix. I was kick in the knee by a horse during feeding once. I was on a pack and trail trip I was feeding and this horse turned and kick me after I had feed her and moved on the the next horse on the high-line. 
Now remember horses kick each other often, so that is what I did, I placed the flat of the top of my foot against her belly and we went once around the feed pan i kick she moved I took a step toward her she either moved or got the flat of my foot. So, once around the feed pan, I stepped back gave her a second I steped toward her she pinned her ears and stepped toward me. So, around the feed pan we went again. I stepped back gave her a second stepped toward her she stepped away. I stepped in rubbed her on the neck and round her ears turned and walked away. The rest of the week during feed time she never tried to kick or pin her ears at me again. One lesson.

Your horse don't respect you or others this is a big problem. no matter how he is other times if at feeding he is like this he doesn't respect anyone. 
The bigger the problem the bigger the fix needed. 
Look at how horses teach others about "personal space" its not nice its kicking and its bitting. we think we can teach with niceness and most of the time small amounts of presure works just fine. And in the heard its true too, small presure, BUT when a horse over steppes its bounders its not nice its very clear. 
I saw a horse today try to get up to a feeder were another horse was eating the horse eating didn't wait, he didn't try to be nice he didn't even *just chase the other horse away,* he chased the other horse problem 20 to 30 yard away there was bitting kicking and sqeeling it was ugly and "mean" but that horse learnd that, that horses food was his not hers. 

Why do we think teaching horses the way they naturaly learn is bad. I don't beat horse I have 20 horses and they all know I am the head for the heard they don't fear me and flinch when I am working with them, but they do respect me. They give me my space they yeild to me. when I am feeding them in the feedlot, they look out for me and move out of my way. I would not have this problem for very long. You don't need to put this horse down *yet* but if this goes unchecked for to much longer you could end up there. For the horses sake teach him to respect you.


----------



## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

to me aggressiveness while eating could be a lack of trust in just that, to him u maybe trying to steal his food just like the other horses would if he shared a yard with them eating

either way ur horse has to except u touching him while eating incase theres a problem while in his stall and vet must attend to him in there


----------



## nicfish (Aug 14, 2012)

He does respect me outside of the stall, with his halter on, riding, ect. Just not when I approach him. Hitting him does nothing.


----------



## nicfish (Aug 14, 2012)

When I approach him when he is eating.


----------



## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

maybe get a trainer to work with you, for help in the stall,


----------



## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

where do u hit him? have u tried the mouth?

i know im learning about body language, u need to make urself appear bigger and scarier to the horse, run back at him if u have to


----------



## CowboyBob (Feb 11, 2013)

nicfish said:


> He does respect me outside of the stall, with his halter on, riding, ect. Just not when I approach him. Hitting him does nothing.


Sorry respect is all or nothing, there really is not a now and not now if he respected you and others then there would be not problems with eating and bitting. his lack of respect is showing up right now in and round food. he seems to be a well trained horse in other areas of his life and for now that training is holding but he does not respect you its his food and you or anyone else is not going to chase him off it.

I am not sure I want to say this because I havn't thought it through all the way but, "I don't think" (IMO) you will not be able to love this problem out of this horse there might be some "less" agressive ways of doing it but at some piont someone need to teach this horse he is not boss over his food and that if need be I can and will take it from you. And I just don't see that happening in and a stress free and loving atmosfear.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I like Warwick Schiller. He's pretty no nonsense.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

CowboyBob"I don't think" (IMO) you will not be able to love this problem out of this horse there might be some "less" agressive ways of doing it but at some piont someone need to teach this horse he is not boss over his food and that if need be I can and will take it from you. And I just don't see that happening in and a stress free and loving atmosfear.[/QUOTE said:


> yes, well said. you cannot love your way out of this.


----------



## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

if love conqured all id have the most well behaved horse! lol


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

As long as the owner thinks that a horse needs 'love' and does not realise that horses, dogs children and adults all need boundaries, then there is little hope for this horse to be trained.
When starting boundaries need to be tight and can widen as the training progresses. 
A horse that has respect will not go into attack mode at any time. This horse does what it is asked because it wants to not because it is respectful.
How any so called 'trainer' can allow this behaviour without correcting is beyond me. 

I worked in a National Hunt yard (jump racers) and my first job every morning was to feed 85 horses. No one at 5 A.M. is at there best on a cold and wet morning way before daylight has decided to appear! 

These horses are big, fit and strong. Not all were well mannered and some could be plain determined to get their feed, ears back, charging across the stable as I entered the door and making faces. I know that some of the lads were frightened to feed certain horses at lunch and evening stables. 
I took no nonsense. I was certainly not going to be bossed by a mere racehorse and, if they were downright rude they got the bucket treatment with no qualms on my behalf. 
It worked. Not one horse would demand their feed, they would move away from the door, stand to one side whilst I checked they had eaten their night feed, if I had to clear it I would and then feed the breakfast. 

During the course of the season there were probably 120 different horses through the yard. each and every one of them took to having manners when I fed them.

The kick on from this was that all these horses had to be clipped for work and racing, I was handed that job and, of all those horses there was only one that I had to twitch to clip his ears. Most of the others would stand loose whilst I did them, a couple I would have another lad come in to hold a leg when I had to do the ticklish spots but all in all they were good as gold to clip. 
The previous season several were so bad they had to be doped and one had put three lads in hospital yet I could and would do him untied. 
I put the reason down to them being good was because I had already shown them, at feed time, I was in charge and upsetting me was not worth it because I would show them that I said what I meant and would follow through. 

sorting them out at feed time with a bucket has never failed for me. Kicking the bucket under their legs as they go into retreat frightens them without hurting them and makes them think twice about doing it again.

Another one was a big young event horse that came for a short stay. His owner told me to catch him before feeding, to lead him around the stable whilst I put the feed into the manger and then to lead him back to the door, close the door and remove the halter. He was 'dangerous' when he had any food including hay.
I am sorry but I do not have time to faff around catching each and every horse. He got the bucket treatment and what made it better was he kicked the bucket out of my hand. The bucket hit the wall, bounced of and landed on his head. I set about chasing him and kicking the bucket under his feet as he retreated. 
That horse never again tried to protect his food from anyone yet I had not laid a hand on him, 

I do agree that a horse should be left to eat its feed in peace. Ditto with dogs and people! However, if I want to take their feed away from them then it is my right to do so.


----------



## mistysms (Jul 15, 2012)

My horse who I have had for a year now was very food aggressive because where i bought her from she was lucky to get food once a week. Also she was lowest on the pecking order and still is. So when I got her she thought well i can over power this girl who knows nothing and at first she did because i didn't no what i was doing. But soon i got sick of hanging her feed bucket up and her throwing her head in it. So I would halter her up every feeding time and walk her to a different pasture (she is with a much of horses who aren't mine) I would tell her to wait why I stood in front of her and hung the bucket of food up and I would keep telling her to wait the first step she took towards the bucket i would flick back on her lead rope to get her attention fully on me and i would back her up to her normal spot and again she got told to wait. the first few times it took about 4 or 5 times of backing her up but now i feed her in the pasture with all the other horses and she still waits tell i take a step back from her food and let her eat. Now i understand my horse is out in a pasture but if you said your horse is good haltered and on a lead rope i would take him out every feeding tell he understands that the food is yours and you are letting him eat. That worked with my horse so maybe it will work with yours. I also tried to fix everything i could with love and then i found out it didn't work as well lol. But i don't ever hit my horses or kick my horses because i don't think my horses are bad enough to be hit or kicked but believe me I have been around a few horses who needing to be hit once or twice. Well i take that back i have hit my horse a few times she likes to try to nip to get treats and when she would nip i would take my hand away fast and hit her nose. she learned quick not to nip. Also my horse could just be a fast learner. I just got another horse about 2 months ago that I will be bring home soon who i know is food aggressive so i will try the same thing on her and hope it works.


----------



## bbsmfg3 (Aug 12, 2010)

I agree you can not love your way out of this behavior. Horses are not capable of love or trust. It is not in their make up. No animal can love or trust, these emotions are for humans only. The sooner you realize this, the faster you can overcome problems. Horses have a very acute sense of human body language and respond quickly to stimuli. This horse has been taught, yes, that's right, taught, to behave as he does. Is it fixable, yes, with most, but not all. Sometimes there is no fixing, once the behavior has been taught and reinforced time and again. Every time he is allowed to try and bite, you are reinforcing the biting, and encouraging it.

This horse has to learn thru stimuli, that biting, of any kind, is not acceptable. That is going to take some pretty strong measures and can turn the horse into a complete outlaw. This is a job for a professional, period. You should not even being handing this horse until he is fixed. You have not realized your life is in danger, serious danger. Either get it fixed or get rid of him, before the horse kills, or seriously hurts someone. This should have been the first training chore, not the last.

I have rehabed outlaws into well trained, reliable horses, but I am not going to go into the methods here. I'll just say, you have to completely tear them down and then rebuild them from scratch. When they are completely torn down, they can be exceptionally dangerous. If you do not have a keen ability to read a horse before it attacks, leave these horse alone, completely alone, until they are rehabed by a professional trainer, trained to handle these horses. It is not a job for a teenager, nor should a teenager even witness the training.

I hope you have come to realize you are jeopardizing you entire families lively hood. If this horse kills someone, and don't believe it can not happen, it can, the ensuing law suits and legal actions could leave you without any parents, or any source of income. NO HORSE IS WORTH THE CHANCE.


----------



## bbsmfg3 (Aug 12, 2010)

"Over the months, he would get into the habit of "snake heading" at people and biting the air, never people. We would patiently wait for him to stop and then reward him by walking away or praising with pets."

This what I mean by training him to behave as he does. You rewarded him for being aggressive.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I agree - any horse that snakes it head at me gets me snaking my hand across his muzzle!


----------



## RiddlesDarkAngel5 (Jun 2, 2009)

Its important to correct the behavior right at the beginning even if the behavior isnt "severe" (ie the head snaking). I have encountered two food aggressive horses in my career. Both times, the minute that horse made a move towards me or otherwise, i made him move his feet. Back up, circle...whatever i had to do to get his attention so that he understood that this type of behavior would not be getting him access to food. By correcting at an earlier behavior the horse has no reason to escalate to biting or charging.


Since he has now progressed to biting, i agree with the previous posters that a tough approach is necesary. Punishment is most effective when it is delivered immeditaely following an undesireable behavior AND is intense enough to get attention. This means the minute he snakes his head, pins his ears, smack him and say "no!" In a loud firm voice. Back him up, make him move until he realizes that the only way hes going to get to his food is if he respects you as the leader. It will take time, though, and probably multiple training sessions to correct this behavior.


----------



## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

There is a lot you don't understand about horses. You have been focusing on his history and not dealing with him as you should. He's reading you all the time and he knows your mood, if you are focused on him, if you have the confidence to demand his respect. He is deciding what he will allow you to do with him. Horses don't pet each other, it's an invasion of their space, except when mutual grooming which is done by invite only. They don't particularly like being petted on, they tolerate it, some more than others.


----------



## klkavich (Jul 25, 2012)

I'm not going to comment on your past/present methods as others have but will simply share with you the technique that has been working with my filly. My filly is not aggressive but does have respect/personal space issues (she was very spoiled and was never taught basic ground manners until I got her about a month ago). She used to push through me any time (she was never reprimanded for this, they would just move out of her way). It was especially worse for feeding time (would push her shoulder into you to move you out of the way). So it's not the exact same scenario as your guy but it's still and underlying lack of respect issue.

First I taught her to back up straight when I wiggle the lead rope (I have it down to just wagging my finger at her now, yay progress!). This moves her out of my space. If she moves out of the spot that I put her in I back her up and/or yield her shoulder or hindquarters to get her back in that spot because she should not move until I ask her to move (she moves her feet, I don't move mine). I started this process without food (maybe you could do it in a round pen) to make the "right" thing easier for her aka no temptation from the food. I then introduced the food when she would back/stay out of my space consistently. I place her feed tub on the ground. The first few times she would immediately move in towards me to get it, I would ask her to get back and stand because I haven't told her to move yet. Once she's standing politely I cue her to eat by snapping my fingers and point at her feed. She munches away happily. I would suggest starting this in a round pen so that if you have to, you can send him backwards 20 ft if you have to. Once he's fine with waiting for a cue to approach his feed you can progress from there (moving around him, walking away and approaching him again, etc.). If he EVER displays any disrespect (head tossing, stamping, swinging his head into your personal space, biting, etc.) make him MOVE. Repeat the process above until he stands quietly and cue him to approach and continue eating. He'll soon figure out that any misbehaviour will make him lose his food and move his feet.

This is what I would try as the method works for my filly but every horse is different so maybe you could get a trainer out for a session or two to give you some methods/tools to use (it's amazing how much you can learn in a one hour lesson with a good trainer).


----------



## nicfish (Aug 14, 2012)

Since it has been many months I will give everyone an update. For all the people that thought I should sell or put Splash down.... Splash is no longer food aggressive. The week after he bit the man I got a trainer to come out. She taught me some good tricks to end his bad habits.

1. Everytime i enter his stall, (stand at doorway) he has to come to me, not me coming to him. 
2. IF he even pins is ear back a tiny bit, WAM the stall bars with the lead rope, just to make a noise, not to hit him. 

These have helped tremendously for me! Splash responds very well to it, and he now doesnt even think about being aggressive. 

Thank you everyone for your help.


----------



## nicfish (Aug 14, 2012)

Since it has been many months I will give everyone an update. For all the people that thought I should sell or put Splash down.... Splash is no longer food aggressive. The week after he bit the man I got a trainer to come out. She taught me some good tricks to end his bad habits.

1. Everytime i enter his stall, (stand at doorway) he has to come to me, not me coming to him. 
2. IF he even pins is ear back a tiny bit, WAM the stall bars with the lead rope, just to make a noise, not to hit him. 

These have helped tremendously for me! Splash responds very well to it, and he now doesnt even think about being aggressive. 

Thank you everyone for your help.


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Haven't read all responses so sure I'll repeat... You have allowed this behaviour to become worse due to not providing strong consequences to it. It is nothing to do with his 'lack of trust'. He has attacked people & sounds like it's only luck that he didn't do any damage.

I disagree with the person who said put the horse down, although of course that will end the problem. ;-) I personally feel that punishment is best avoided where possible & used very minimally & judiciously. I agree with your approach to reward his 'good manners'. BUT this horse has already been taught that threatening people is acceptable & he now needs to be dealt with promptly, strongly & consistently. Until he has been taught not to do this, from a *good, effective* trainer, keep him well out of reach of anyone else who is not aware, alert & competent at dealing with it. Otherwise you're just asking for him to injure someone seriously & end up on the meat wagon.


----------



## spirit88 (Jan 12, 2011)

I had a horse who was like that and i sold him for kill sorry a horse like that never changes. I wont keep a horse mean like that in my barn yard period!!

Yeah i got him to quit the agression but he could never be trusted. He proved it one day and tryed to kill my then 3 year old daughter,i beat the crap right out of him. He got tied up and stayed tied up for 3 days. Kill buyer came and got him and he was taken to the slaughter house. 

Horses like that are better dead then alive in my book. Had my horse harmed my kid he would of been shot, right then and there. It was a good thing there was a fence between him and my daughter.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

spirit88 said:


> I had a horse who was like that and i sold him for kill sorry a horse like that never changes. I wont keep a horse mean like that in my barn yard period!!
> 
> Yeah i got him to quit the agression but he could never be trusted. He proved it one day and tryed to kill my then 3 year old daughter,i beat the crap right out of him. He got tied up and stayed tied up for 3 days. Kill buyer came and got him and he was taken to the slaughter house.
> 
> Horses like that are better dead then alive in my book. Had my horse harmed my kid he would of been shot, right then and there. It was a good thing there was a fence between him and my daughter.


Well, I am glad that you never had contact with some of the horses I ahve had to deal with because they would have ended on a hook. 

That is like saying the child who beat up a sibling is always going to be violent and therefore should not be trusted. 
In all my professional life I have only ever had one horse that frightened me and, I was not so experienced back then. This horse would, if he wanted to, try to kill anyone. He would kick, bite and try to squash you given half a chance. Gelding him never helped with the aggression. 
One day, when riding him, I had a 'Come to Jesus' session with him. It was not pretty and not something that I am proud of *but,* it altered that horse totally and I, and anyone else could do anything with him including going under his belly.

Any animal that gets away with things will try to get away with more. A horse, dog or child that gets away with things becomes unhappy because they have a responsibility to remain as leader and that is trying for them. (Look at how much a President or country leader ages when they are in power) 

Take over that leadership and they relax, become happier and content to be a follower. 
To have a horse put down just because it is bad at feed time or commits a sin is an extreme and shows lack of experience from the trainer. 

My last horse was classed as untrustworthy , he would bite and kick but after a very short period of time, a couple of days, he stopped all that nonsense and became a heck of a character and totally trustworthy. Small children could go in and feed him, sit with him when he was laying down and he would always show manners.


----------



## spirit88 (Jan 12, 2011)

The horse was mean period i was his leader didnt matter he was nasty. He couldnt be trusted i had a 3 year old daughter he tryed to kill. Sorry iam not keeping a horse around like that when my daughters life was being endangered. 

He NEVER did that to me but he did It other people i had boarded horses and owners coming out. 

He belong on a meat hook i dont regret it either. My daughter is way more important then a horse. I cant replace my kid if that horse would of killed her. 

Horses are repalaceable my daugher isnt!!! He went after the neighbor kids and they were just walking by. 

Sorry i wont keep horses like that around not worth it PERIOD!!!!!!!


----------



## Ninamebo (May 25, 2013)

Woah now, no need for getting all worked up, as OP updated that she got a trainer and has seen a lot of improvement with the issue. I don't think that a horse who is learning to change a bad behavior (and making good progress) should still have his fate considered in that way. I do believe he should still be kept under strict watch and only handled by OP and trainer for the safety of everyone, but I'm glad that things are looking up for them. 

OP, just use this as a learning experience and remember for future instances (including future horses) to be very clear about what you want from the horse and use tough love and fair treatment to gain their respect right off the bat. 

Good luck, keep safe!


----------



## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

So glad to hear things are working well for you, OP!

If a horse has a handler that allows them to pick up bad habits, it's going to happen. Plain and simple.
My horse is currently residing in another state and is being used as a school horse. When I went back to visit him, he had a few bad habits--the main one being that he had gotten a bit pushy while in the cross ties. 
But he's handled by people (the students! xD) who may not know what they are doing, and /allow/ this behavior. 
That doesn't make him a demon spawn. I don't want to euthanize him on the spot.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

nicfish said:


> Since it has been many months I will give everyone an update. For all the people that thought I should sell or put Splash down.... Splash is no longer food aggressive. The week after he bit the man I got a trainer to come out. She taught me some good tricks to end his bad habits.
> 
> 1. Everytime i enter his stall, (stand at doorway) he has to come to me, not me coming to him.
> 2. IF he even pins is ear back a tiny bit, WAM the stall bars with the lead rope, just to make a noise, not to hit him.
> ...


Which goes to show that horses _can_ be changed around!

Well done you.


----------



## nicfish (Aug 14, 2012)

Thank you everyone that has chose to read my update. I am very aware of his behaviors and he does not get away with anything now. When I posted this topic I needed help with ways to fix my horses problem. I got help and used the techniques that some of you suggested. My horse no longer even tries to challenge me or act aggressive. A theory that I have is that one of the reasons he was doing those things was because my trainer trained him all winter. (I didn't want him to be trained by her but she did it anyways) anyways so basically he got neglected of attention. He was isolated outside with two other horses, no one went out there except to feed them. So when she decided he was ready to be ridden and reintroduced to me thats when he bit the man. He didn't get enough attention to get disciplined. I will never have him get taken away like he did so he won't develop any be habits like that ever again. I will continue to give updates if any of you would like that! Here is a link to how Splish and I are doing now....


----------



## spirit88 (Jan 12, 2011)

Nice job with your horse glad he's doing so well.


----------



## TaMMa89 (Apr 12, 2008)

*Moderator's note:

Good morning ladies and fellas,

this thread has been edited by the HF.com Moderating Team. Please stay respectful & constructive while discussing with each others and take a look at the Horseforum.com Rules before posting. Any post that is aggressive, rude, hurtful etc. toward other users will be subject to removal and if needed, also sanctions will be carried out. Please report possible troublematic posts to the Moderating Team instead of answering them in the thread.*

OP. I'm glad to hear that you've managed to work out with the problem. I wish you good luck with your horse.


----------



## nicfish (Aug 14, 2012)

Thank you!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------

