# Update on horse search



## elle1959

Since I can never decide whether to post in the over 50 or Krones thread, I thought I'd just put a thread out here for updates that would make them easier to find. 

The appaloosa that I have been looking at was finally shod yesterday. The owner had trouble getting the farrier out due to the weather. 

Yesterday I also received a message on FB from someone who saw my ISO ad and has a TWH that she isn't riding and who is willing to send him out on free lease or trial pre-purchase with references. Um, yeah, I'd do that. So I contacted my trainer and will see my riding instructor today and should be getting those references to her soon. 

If I like the TWH, he'll be a lot less expensive than the appy. I'm still hoping that the appaloosa comes up sound with rest but if I'm lucky enough to have two good horses to choose from, I won't complain. I haven't been aggressively pursuing another horse so the fact that this one came to me could be a good thing. Hoping one or the other will work out and I can get back to the barn sometime very soon.


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## evilamc

Keep in mind, even if the appy is sound NOW with shoes that doesn't completely tell you if shes "fixed"...the shoes could just be like a band-aid to mask the real issue. If it were me, I probably wouldn't consider a horse that had to have shoes put on to be sound...but thats just my opinion!

The TWH sounds like it could be a great opportunity though!! I hope visiting him with your trainer goes well


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## EponaLynn

Glad to see an update Elle. I hope it all works out for you. 

Did Nikki's owner say if she was still sore?


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## jaydee

I've had some wonderful horses that were shod their entire lives because they didn't suit being barefoot so unless I was someone who was totally anti-shoes it wouldn't worry me if the horse was otherwise everything I needed it to be


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## evilamc

jaydee said:


> I've had some wonderful horses that were shod their entire lives because they didn't suit being barefoot so unless I was someone who was totally anti-shoes it wouldn't worry me if the horse was otherwise everything I needed it to be


No I get that too, but I'd just really want to know the reason why all of a sudden she needs them when she was barefoot before.


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## beverleyy

evilamc said:


> No I get that too, but I'd just really want to know the reason why all of a sudden she needs them when she was barefoot before.


Yes, agree. 

OP, I haven't followed your posts super closely so cannot recall who the appy is or if vet check was done and lameness was found? Some horses need shoes and do not do well barefoot, simply not an option for them at this point in time, if ever. But, I would be hesitant to buy her even if she is sound now with shoes - if she had previously been barefoot and sound previously, and now suddenly lame or "off" barefoot and shoes suddenly now make her sound, that is what worries me. Did you vet check her recently? Whether you buy her or not, I am actually curious what the reasoning is, as I have been through similar issue with a horse I worked with in the past so wondering if similar diagnosis?


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## Rainaisabelle

I also had these thoughts when I read it in your last thread. I was confused why shoes were suddenly just being slapped on if she was barefoot to begin with?


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## elle1959

evilamc said:


> No I get that too, but I'd just really want to know the reason why all of a sudden she needs them when she was barefoot before.


Supposedly she had a bad trim, then was trotted on gravel, so they're thinking it was just a stone bruise. 

The owner will take her out and take a look at her next week to see if she's looking better. She's going to call me when she thinks she is ready. 

Regardless of anything else, she'll still be having hoof x-rays if I decide I still want her. The vet who did the vet check is the one who recommended shoes for this reason so we're just doing what he suggested. The other legs were fine.


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## evilamc

elle1959 said:


> Supposedly she had a bad trim, then was trotted on gravel, so they're thinking it was just a stone bruise.
> 
> The owner will take her out and take a look at her next week to see if she's looking better. She's going to call me when she thinks she is ready.
> 
> Regardless of anything else, she'll still be having hoof x-rays if I decide I still want her. The vet who did the vet check is the one who recommended shoes for this reason so we're just doing what he suggested. The other legs were fine.


Ah, I see. Pfft if just a stone bruise should of just let her rest, oh well! Hopefully shes feeling better and x-rays are clean if you decide to have her checked again  Good luck!


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## Saskia

To be honest I'd be a bit hesitant of an owner who is already talking about offering a trial or lease when the haven't met you. A good horse sells itself. The owner seems to be offering a lot extra for this one.


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## elle1959

This horse is for sale, so I'd opt for the trial over the lease. She just wants him to be used and not sitting. Maybe she doesn't want to keep going through the hassle of trying to sell him. I sure don't want to go through the hassle of shopping anymore, myself, so I kind of get that.


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## EponaLynn

Saskia said:


> To be honest I'd be a bit hesitant of an owner who is already talking about offering a trial or lease when the haven't met you. A good horse sells itself. The owner seems to be offering a lot extra for this one.


I agree but on the other hand, she might be willing to let him go on trial only IF the trail home meets her criteria. I don't think it means for sure that she's careless.

Plus if she's seen Elle on FB she might have an idea about her and her level of care already.


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## EponaLynn

The horse in my pic here had ouchy feet and wore pads his whole life it seems. I tried him without and it didn't work for him.

I had him x'rayed when I bought him, because he was wearing pads, even though he came from a VERY reputable home - an AQHA judge and his wife who taught the 2 year Horsemanship course at the local college. His x-rays were ok, but there was always something weird about his feet, and he tripped and fell a number of times, with and without me on him. In the end it was a fall that ended his life but he was a ripe old age.

I always wondered if thee was some navicular or something else going on.

P.S. he was an AQHA show horse.


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## elle1959

EponaLynn said:


> I agree but on the other hand, she might be willing to let him go on trial only IF the trail home meets her criteria. I don't think it means for sure that she's careless.
> 
> Plus if she's seen Elle on FB she might have an idea about her and her level of care already.


My ad is pretty specific about what I'm looking for and what kind of rider I am, what kind of home I will provide and what I want from and for my horse, so that may look attractive to her. I also have some mutual friends with this person on FB, so she might be more willing to reach out to someone who at least has some positive association with others she knows.


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## elle1959

EponaLynn said:


> The horse in my pic here had ouchy feet and wore pads his whole life it seems. I tried him without and it didn't work for him.
> 
> I had him x'rayed when I bought him, because he was wearing pads, even though he came from a VERY reputable home - an AQHA judge and his wife who taught the 2 year Horsemanship course at the local college. His x-rays were ok, but there was always something weird about his feet, and he tripped and fell a number of times, with and without me on him. In the end it was a fall that ended his life but he was a ripe old age.
> 
> I always wondered if thee was some navicular or something else going on.
> 
> P.S. he was an AQHA show horse.


Awww, I'm sorry to hear he had that trouble  Nikki was pretty sure-footed when I took her out on the trail by my barn, but we don't have any truly challenging terrain there. Hopefully she'll turn out to be okay, but I like having this other horse in my pocket, so to speak


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## tinyliny

EponaLynn said:


> The horse in my pic here had ouchy feet and wore pads his whole life it seems. I tried him without and it didn't work for him.
> 
> I had him x'rayed when I bought him, because he was wearing pads, even though he came from a VERY reputable home - an AQHA judge and his wife who taught the 2 year Horsemanship course at the local college. His x-rays were ok, but there was always something weird about his feet, and he tripped and fell a number of times, with and without me on him. In the end it was a fall that ended his life but he was a ripe old age.
> 
> I always wondered if thee was some navicular or something else going on.
> 
> P.S. he was an AQHA show horse.


regarding the tripping, I have found that of the two horses (small sampling for any kind of survey, I know) that I have ridden who were habitual trippers, both of them "plaited" or, "rope walked". meaning, they put one foot more crossed over in front of the other, as if tight rope walking, instead of keeping each foot in it's own track as they walked.

when they trotted, they did not trip as much as when walking.


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## EponaLynn

tinyliny said:


> regarding the tripping, I have found that of the two horses (small sampling for any kind of survey, I know) that I have ridden who were habitual trippers, both of them "plaited" or, "rope walked". meaning, they put one foot more crossed over in front of the other, as if tight rope walking, instead of keeping each foot in it's own track as they walked.
> 
> when they trotted, they did not trip as much as when walking.


It was different for mine, he never tripped when we were walking, it was always going faster, sometimes he could right himself on his own, and it didn't happen all the time of course as we were showing regularly back then and that would NOT have worked in the show ring.


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## JulieG

I still find it funny that we're both looking at an appaloosa in Northern CA. I'm going to see the one I like next Friday, once I'm back from this business trip. I hope it works out for both of us!

I like the ISO ad idea. There's so many horses out there that may fit what you're looking for but maybe the owner didn't think to put that info in their ad, so you may just scroll past it. I've seen a lot of those ads working out lately in the area.

Are they planning to keep the shoes on for a while? Just wondering if the horse is sound with shoes, and it is just a stone bruise, will you get a chance to see it sound and barefoot again?


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## elle1959

JulieG said:


> I still find it funny that we're both looking at an appaloosa in Northern CA. I'm going to see the one I like next Friday, once I'm back from this business trip. I hope it works out for both of us!
> 
> I like the ISO ad idea. There's so many horses out there that may fit what you're looking for but maybe the owner didn't think to put that info in their ad, so you may just scroll past it. I've seen a lot of those ads working out lately in the area.
> 
> Are they planning to keep the shoes on for a while? Just wondering if the horse is sound with shoes, and it is just a stone bruise, will you get a chance to see it sound and barefoot again?


If I buy her I'll ask my farrier to evaluate her feet and take her shoes off if he feels it's a good idea. I might keep front shoes on her, just to keep her from getting sore. If it happened once, I guess it could happen again.


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## elle1959

So, I'm scratching the appy off my list. I'm sad about it, but I discovered that her owner was lying to others who were calling on her ad and telling them the horse is sound. 

I posted this update in the Krones and Kodgers thread. 

Well, the longer I sat on this thing with Nikki's owner lying to someone else about her, the madder I got, so I vented this morning in one of my horsey facebook groups about it. Not naming any names, but anyone who sends me a PM is getting a link to that ad. I figure if she'll lie about that she'll also lie about how much bute she gave her before I rode her both times. So there's that, and I'm done. I've texted her to explain why that's not a good way to do business but she doesn't accept responsibility for anything and keeps saying she discloses everything face to face because getting the buyer out there "shows intent." 

What intent? I have no intent to buy an unsound horse. If you're going to drag people out of their homes to see a horse you should make sure they're getting the horse they're being sold. I'd be incredibly angry if I drove an hour to see a horse, only to be told once I got there that the horse is lame. Is she going to then ride the lame horse? Have the buyer ride the lame horse? And then do I wait another week for that horse to recover before I have the vet out for the recheck? 

So I sent a few enlightening texts to the seller. I'm very sorry this didn't work out because, on the surface, she seemed so perfect. But I don't trust anything this person says now. So there's that. 

I did go to see the TWH today. It was a difficult situation for evaluation because he is in a pasture with a very buddy-sour mare, and the only place to ride him was in the driveway which is right next to the pasture. The mare was galloping around the pasture the whole time which was very distracting for the TWH. 

So, I rode him briefly. He was smooth and fast, but I don't know what he's like, really. The owner liked my references and is willing to trailer him to my barn for a couple weeks of trial just so I can get a sense of how he is without his buddy whinnying for him constantly. I may take her up on that. What is there to lose? At least I won't have to worry about him being drugged.


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## EponaLynn

So sorry about the situation with Nikki but it sounds like you made a good choice. I would be livid if I came to see a lame horse, and I wouldn't trust her either.


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## elle1959

Yeah, the whole thing makes me sad.


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## elle1959

Today I'm having a red dun mare trailered in to my barn for a second look. This is the one that was a bit jiggy but otherwise sane when I rode her a month ago. Her sellers are putting a ton of hard miles on her so I think it's good to at least give her a second look. 

After I look at her I'm going to schedule a trail ride with the Rocky Mountain Horse I looked at a while back. She's still expensive, but maybe I will just need to suck it up and pay the price to get the horse I want. I'm working again, so even though I'm not making much, I feel like I can afford to spend a bit more now if I really need to. 

If she doesn't work out, I'm probably going to give up for a while and just take lessons. I hate the thought of giving up my stall, but I can't justify the continued expense if I'm not even looking. Hopefully one of these two will work out. 

The more I think about the TWH I saw, the less inclined I am to go that way. His ground manners were horrible and I just got through dealing with that. Not interested in another one like that.


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## elle1959

I rode the red dun mare again today. She is solid as a rock on the trail, but knows next to nothing about arena work. The barn manager liked her and pointed out that it's a lot harder to get a solid foundation on a trail horse than it is to teach a horse to work in an arena, and this horse has a great foundation. I was offered a trial on her and I may take them up on that, but I'm riding the Rocky Mountain Horse one more time before I decide. 

Here we are on our ride today.


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## beverleyy

elle1959 said:


> I rode the red dun mare again today. She is solid as a rock on the trail, but knows next to nothing about arena work.* The barn manager liked her and pointed out that it's a lot harder to get a solid foundation on a trail horse than it is to teach a horse to work in an arena, and this horse has a great foundation.* I was offered a trial on her and I may take them up on that, but I'm riding the Rocky Mountain Horse one more time before I decide.
> 
> Here we are on our ride today.


IME, I will agree with this. She sounds like a great fit for you. Depending how things go with the RMH, I would for sure take this mare out on trial and get PPE. She sounds like just what you need =)


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## tinyliny

I'd much rather have a good trail horse that hates arena work, than a good arena horse that is scared to do trails.

how much arena work do you really want to do?


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## Emeraldsprings

In my opinion, go for the safest, steadiest horse. Then you'll have the confidence to build on that. The most important thing is to buy a horse that you will look forward to riding every day. If this is the more expensive horse, so be it.
It's very good if them to give a trial. Only other thing I can think of is try riding either horse on its own, just to make sure it isn't going to be a nightmare away from others.


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## Change

I've never been huge on arena work once a horse is trained, but that's me (and I'm really partial to duns!). I will say, though, if you take a horse who is used to trail riding and do a lot of arena work without any outside riding to stimulate her mind, she might get a bit bored and sour.


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## SwissMiss

*Elle*, I am exactly in that boat! My mare is a trail pro. Quiet, brave and simply a joy to ride. Always eager to explore the word. That is the reason why I got her!
Put her in an arena, and she is nervous and very insecure (but she is also young).

So we take it slow in the arena to build her confidence and enjoy our trail rides together...


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## elle1959

The only reason I would put her in the arena would be to practice what I'm learning in my lessons. This horse, right now, would scare me in the arena because she's very quick to pick up into a lope. Her lope is smooth, which is fortunate, but she doesn't have a big stop on her yet. She will stop, but it takes a few tries before she realizes you mean it. She's not like that on the trail. 

She's trained to neck rein, doesn't direct rein very well. That's also something she needs to learn. I'm learning to ride and control my horse with two hands, so that's going to be a problem in terms of practicing and developing on what I'm learning. The direct reining seems to scare her or something.


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## Emeraldsprings

Is the other horse a bit easier to stop? She seems very green and forward going, may not prove the most relaxing horse for you to ride. I'd be a bit concerned about her getting away on you on the trail.


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## Smilie

evilamc said:


> Keep in mind, even if the appy is sound NOW with shoes that doesn't completely tell you if shes "fixed"...the shoes could just be like a band-aid to mask the real issue. If it were me, I probably wouldn't consider a horse that had to have shoes put on to be sound...but thats just my opinion!
> 
> The TWH sounds like it could be a great opportunity though!! I hope visiting him with your trainer goes well


Agree
A horse that is not barefoot sound, on the terrain he is used to living on, is not sound
Many of our domestic horses, in fact, are not sound, but shoing masks that fact, until the shoes can no longer compensate
I am certainly no saying that you should not use shoing, or even therapeutic shoing, on a horse you own, to keep him working sound, but quite another thing to buy one that 'needs' shoes, in order to be sound


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## EponaLynn

What is the main thing you want to do with your horse? Some horses, especially trail horses don't really enjoy arena work (I can hardly blame them).

For me (mid 50's) I would prefer to be out on the trail. 

That said, if you wanted her to do arena work, you could have some training put on her if you needed to (I know you've already been through that with Diva but if this is a good horse for the most part, for a good price, she might be worth it - the Rocky Mountain Horse is a LOT more money, right?).

Food for thought....good luck!

P.S I like the looks of this mare!


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## Skyseternalangel

Any updates?


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## elle1959

No updates. I might be riding the RMH mare again this week. If I like her on the trail I might just buy her, or at least arrange the PPE with the goal of buying her. She is more money than I want to spend but I'm working again so I should probably just bite the bullet and buy the horse that has just about everything I want.


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## Skyseternalangel

I hope you have a good ride then!


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## EponaLynn

elle1959 said:


> No updates. I might be riding the RMH mare again this week. If I like her on the trail I might just buy her, or at least arrange the PPE with the goal of buying her. She is more money than I want to spend but I'm working again so I should probably just bite the bullet and buy the horse that has just about everything I want.


Sounds like a great idea. A good horse is something you will have a long time so you want to get the one that suits you best.


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## elle1959

Never heard back from this mare's seller about the ride today, so I'm officially done. This is just not the right time for me to be owning a horse; the powers that be are not in my favor. I'm going to pay for one more month on my stall and that will be it. I've got so many other things going on right now, maybe this for the best.


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## knightrider

Awwww, bummer. So sorry.


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## Emeraldsprings

Oh dear 
Are there any other horses for sale in the area, or even a little further afield? There's bound to be something suitable somewhere, don't lose heart! X


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## Emeraldsprings

Great Famiy Horse Trail Horse

Is he too far away?

Or this guy?

Beautiful & Super Broke Grey Gelding. Very Safe & Gentle! Trail & Ranch

Sorry if I'm being too forward, I love looking at horse ads..:redface:


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## elle1959

Thanks. One of those is very far from me and the other has some negatives that I probably shouldn't post about online. Without saying which is which I suppose it's okay to say one has a less than stellar reputation. But I appreciate you looking as I hadn't seen either of those ads!


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## Emeraldsprings

elle1959 said:


> Thanks. One of those is very far from me and the other has some negatives that I probably shouldn't post about online. Without saying which is which I suppose it's okay to say one has a less than stellar reputation. But I appreciate you looking as I hadn't seen either of those ads!



No problem, I know how it is to find the right horse, especially with the warmer weather approaching you just want to be out enjoying it.

BTW, I'm gasping at the prices. Over here they wouldn't fetch half even with the exchange rate.


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## JulieG

Don't despair too much! I was helping a friend for about a year on a horse hunt, and a few months after she gave up the PERFECT horse for her fell right into her lap.

I have no doubt it will all work out eventually!


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## elle1959

I can't stop. Without even asking, two people today have shown me horses. 

Talk about opposites! One is a 16.2h palomino gelding and the other a 13.2h bay pony. I have an appointment to see the palomino on Monday afternoon. If he doesn't work out, then maybe I'll drive the two hours to see the pony. He's with the same seller I bought Diva from.


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## EponaLynn

elle1959 said:


> I can't stop. Without even asking, two people today have shown me horses.
> 
> Talk about opposites! One is a 16.2h palomino gelding and the other a 13.2h bay pony. I have an appointment to see the palomino on Monday afternoon. If he doesn't work out, then maybe I'll drive the two hours to see the pony. He's with the same seller I bought Diva from.


That's a good sign!


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## Captain Evil

> BTW, I'm gasping at the prices. Over here they wouldn't fetch half even with the exchange rate.


It's so true! And the horses seem, to me, to be very different in the UK from the US. For a while I was determined to go to the Brightwells Autumn Cob sale. I even purchased the 2004 & 2015 catalogues. I LOVE your cobs, and the prices were incredible. Even with importation costs, it was almost feasible. 

But not quite. 

Which is not to imply that we have lousy horses here, we don't, but British & Irish horses are quite distinctive.


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## Change

*elle* - with the prices there, you could buy three here and probably talk me into hauling them out for you! I have family in that neck of the woods, y'know!


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## elle1959

Change said:


> *elle* - with the prices there, you could buy three here and probably talk me into hauling them out for you! I have family in that neck of the woods, y'know!


Okay, you find me a good one and bring it out here, then


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## Change

Don't laugh - you might end up with *WTW* and I both looking! And I'd bet you a dollar *WTW* would find one that's perfect!


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## elle1959

Change said:


> Don't laugh - you might end up with *WTW* and I both looking! And I'd bet you a dollar *WTW* would find one that's perfect!


I am not laughing! I would love it if someone would drop the perfect horse into my lap at this point. I'm so tired of looking!


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## knightrider

Elle, I sent you a PM about a horse.


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## walkinthewalk

Change said:


> Don't laugh - you might end up with *WTW* and I both looking! And I'd bet you a dollar *WTW* would find one that's perfect!


I don't ride anymore so I will say that an "old" trail riding bud (which he isn't old, lol) has now gone to gaited mules. He trail rides all over the SE and into the Shenandoah Valley.

I am sure I could inquire but you'd likely be looking at the perfect gaited mule, as these days, he is sure there is nothing better. Not sure how that would set with the folks in California.

Either way (gaited horse or mule), it wouldn't be cheap to be broke to the trail and arena comfort level Elle would like.

It would be a dangerous call for me to make, as the few times we do talk thru the year, he is always saying "hey I know where there's a horse that needs a good home and a little work"------------------:think::beatup:


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## Change

I know of a couple horses for sell - two QHs that are not what you're looking for (one barrel racer; one testy) and a TWH that I think might be perfect, but I think he's overpriced and hasn't been ridden much this past year. I've been trying to talk that one's owner into letting me 'tune him up' a bit, but we both know I've got my hands full with Cally and Tango right now!


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## JulieG

walkinthewalk - I actually know a lot of people out here in CA that ride mules! I was surprised as well but man they are great when you get up into those hills!


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## elle1959

The horse search has taken a new and exciting turn  

Next week I'm traveling to Florida to meet up and ride with our very own Knightrider, who has located two wonderful mares for me to try, priced such that I can afford to buy one of them and have her trailered back to California. 

We're going to spend a week riding, which will give me plenty of time to decide which mare I like, if either! Worst case scenario is I get a week's worth of riding vacation while meeting one of my Horse Forum friends! 

A second perk is that there's another online friend I've known for more than a decade now who is also a rider and will try her best to meet up with us over the weekend! So I get to meet two online friends, ride with both of them, and maybe buy a horse, too. 

I could not be more excited!


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## egrogan

Can I come and ride? 

Seriously though- have a great time and good luck with the search!


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## ShirtHotTeez

Wow that sounds awesome, and I hope one of the horses works out for you. (maybe both will :rofl

I haven't even started looking yet, and I find four potentially ideal horses every week  but the OTTBs are easier to come by.

All the best, and have fun


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## knightrider

I could not be more excited myself! I have already figured out our trail itineraries every day (although I am quite flexible) and what I am going to make for meals!. I am picking up the mares on Sunday so that my neighbor and I can ride them a couple of times before Elle arrives. Neither mare has been ridden since January, but both are the kinds of horses that can sit in a pasture for 6 months and still give nice rides. As Elle says, even if neither mare is what she wants, we will still have a wonderful time riding the trails. Our trails are gorgeous this time of year.

Here are the mares:

14 year old racking pony mare, 14 hands, not registered






She had a baby while we were camping at Doe Lake. He did not know the mare was pregnant when he bought her. This is NOT what her previous owner wanted or planned, but he did not dare leave her home when he knew the baby was eminent. As it turned out, she delivered the colt (which we named Orion) safely in her electric enclosure and all was well. The colt is now a yearling, smart, kind, quiet, and handsome. The mare was a super trooper with the newborn in the enclosure and with 50 people coming to admire him all day long.



The other mare is 13, registered TWH with papers, has packed many beginners over the trails, 15 hands.










Both mares have done many trail miles and camping trips. The white mare is calmer than the bay mare. The bay mare is very steady, but a little more high powered. This is going to be so great!!!!


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## elle1959

I think I am in love with both of them already. It will be so hard to decide


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## Skyseternalangel

Just make sure you do a PPE! Lately so many haven't and things have come up later on :/


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## SwissMiss

Oh, how wonderful! A trail-riding-friend-visiting-horse-shopping vacation! :cowboy:

Like that you can try each several times _and_ have *knightrider*'s opinion on them right there as well! Very exciting!
Have fun and keep us posted!


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## LoriF

Oooh how fun. I wanna go too!!
I like the bay mare myself. I hope you are able to take something home with you


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## knightrider

Well, Lori, COME ON! The more the merrier. On Sat. we are going to McCully Farm. On Sunday, probably Mattair Springs. When are you off?


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## Werecat

That sounds like such a blast!!! I hope the right horse picks you so you won't have to make the choice of who to get!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rainaisabelle

Have a good one !


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## LoriF

knightrider said:


> Well, Lori, COME ON! The more the merrier. On Sat. we are going to McCully Farm. On Sunday, probably Mattair Springs. When are you off?


I just saw that its next week  I have all the time in the world but the only thing I'm allowed to do right now is watch netflix or read a book


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## ShirtHotTeez

I like the bay on the face of it. But I tend to be biased towards bay or chestnuts


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## tinyliny

how wonderful! have a great time, and check in with us as often as possible so we can enjoy your vacation vicariously.


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## Rain Shadow

Oh where in Florida will you be? I might know a few horses if you are not to far from Citrus or Hernando.


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## ShirtHotTeez

. . . and pics


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## ShirtHotTeez

elle1959 said:


> I think I am in love with both of them already. It will be so hard to decide


Once you have ridden them both for a week you will know which one you are coming home with. Unless you get both!!


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## knightrider

That's right, Lori, you are on BABYWATCH!!!! I keep checking your thread to see if the baby has come yet. Maybe you can come ride with us another time.

I live in N. Central Florida, a long way from Citrus and Hernando, too bad. One reason I wanted Elle to see these two horses is because I know them. I've ridden the bay many times and I've seen the gray on rides for two years.

Only 4 more days! I am so excited.


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## DraftyAiresMum

If neither one of those mares work out, elle, I just saw this foxtrotter mare on my local CL.

Beautiful Registered Foxtrotter Mare

There's also this foxtrotter:
Beautiful Black Missour Foxtrotter Mare

and this gelding:
Missouri Foxtrotter Gelding for Sale

There's also a paso/morgan cross mare who is gaited and seems like a nicely-trained little girl, but I don't trust the ranch that has her for sale.


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## Emeraldsprings

Love the grey! Good luck and enjoy yourself!


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## elle1959

Thanks, everyone. I'm so looking forward to this trip. It's going to be great! I really hope I fall in love with one of these mares. Wish I could afford two


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## ShirtHotTeez

elle1959 said:


> Thanks, everyone. I'm so looking forward to this trip. It's going to be great! I really hope I fall in love with one of these mares. Wish I could afford two


Remember to NEGOTIATE. Asking price is just that, a place to start.


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## KigerQueen

if you want a foxtrotter look up the Miller ranch (miller-ranch.com). they breed and raise solid trail horses that CAN show though the owner only dose it out of necessity. he just thinks trail riding is good enough lol! (and i mean extreme trail riding)


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## Change

Love that grey, although I'll always go with a leggy 15h+ over a shorter horse. And her tail! OMG! It's dragging the ground!

I keep looking at the calendar and my checkbook, trying to figure out how to swing a trip down for the weekend. It just won't happen. Darnit.


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## LoriF

knightrider said:


> That's right, Lori, you are on BABYWATCH!!!! I keep checking your thread to see if the baby has come yet. Maybe you can come ride with us another time.
> 
> I live in N. Central Florida, a long way from Citrus and Hernando, too bad. One reason I wanted Elle to see these two horses is because I know them. I've ridden the bay many times and I've seen the gray on rides for two years.
> 
> Only 4 more days! I am so excited.


I'm watching her but day 335 is may 9th. she might go a little earlier but not this early. I will posts some updates with pics soon though


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## knightrider

This morning my neighbor and I rode the two mares all through the trails for almost two hours. Both mares were completely perfect trail horses even though they hadn't been ridden since January. We didn't lunge them or do any ground work at all. We just climbed on and rode out. I wanted to see if they would. The mares took turns leading and going behind, also rode side by side perfectly. Also rode one off gaiting for home and the other walked. Couldn't ask for better. I am really pleased.


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## elle1959

I can't wait


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## knightrider

This morning my daughter rode Angel, the little bay. I didn't know she had long wished she could try Angel. I used to ride her quite a bit. My daughter liked her so much, she wondered if we could buy her. We can't. I rode the white mare. My neighbor rode his young horse. We had a lovely trail ride. My daughter was pleased to get a sweet gait out of Angel. The white mare has a smooooth running walk. These horses are ready! Just one more day!


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## elle1959

I took the day off so that I could finish getting ready for my trip. I expect this will be challenging, physically, since I haven't been riding much these past few months, but I'm so looking forward to it!


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## knightrider

I promise I will not push you. Everyone in our riding group is very considerate. We will only do what you want to do.


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## elle1959

Nah, don't worry about that. I'm a lot hardier than I look


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## LoriF

I'm excited for you, keep us posted with lots of pics


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## Folly

Wow! I haven't been on hf for a few days, and I missed this crazy fantastic update. What fun, no matter how it turns out. Hoping you find a match!


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## Change

*still jealous* I may pout! ;-)


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## elle1959

No need to pout! I'm awake at 4:00am to catch a 7:00 flight. That is nothing to be jealous about!


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## walkinthewalk

Safe flight

It isn't often forum friends from one side of the U.S. Get to meet folks on the other side of the U.S. Enjoy every moment!


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## Folly

And both Knightrider and Elle need to give frequent updates, so we can live vicariously! Yes, have a great flight.


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## evilamc

Safe flight and good luck!


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## Skyseternalangel

Have fun!!!!!!


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## Oreos Girl

Good luck. Wave as you fly over Georgia.


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## Tazzie

I'll be stalking this thread like crazy!! What a fun adventure!!


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## EponaLynn

I so hope the two of you have a wonderful time and hope you find your dream horse Elle! Can't wait to hear how it goes!


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## Folly

So what is Elle's ETA??


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## walkinthewalk

Folly said:


> So what is Elle's ETA??



If the flight is non-stop, it's around five hours and add three hours for the time difference between PCT and EST.

If there were stopovers or changeovers, that can add quite a bit of time.

I THINK the flight was supposed to leave ~around 7:00 AM or a little later.


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## weeedlady

stalking and subbing. And feeling jealous.


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## Folly

.... this is like our own reality show... I'm glued to the screen lol


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## SwissMiss

Folly said:


> .... this is like our own reality show... I'm glued to the screen lol


 lol, but true!


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## knightrider

She's here! It's real! I'm so excited. She's great! We are going to have so much fun. Wish all of you were here so we could have a great big horsey slumber party! We've both gone to bed, but I just popped on to say all is well. First ride is tomorrow morning.


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## SwissMiss

Yay! Enjoy the ride!
And no wispering all night at the slumber party :wink:


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## elle1959

Haha I was just coming here to announce my arrival but Knight has beat me to it. She is as lovely and sweet a person as you would imagine she is. Riding tomorrow, weather permitting. We'll have lots more to share as the week rolls on. For now I just need to get to bed and adjusted to east coast time!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tjtalon

Oh dear, yes, have been stalking this! Good luck Elle!


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## egrogan

Yay! Have so much fun 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## knightrider

I'll let Elle post the photos and tell about the ride because her camera does better. We had a great ride this morning. 4 Horses met us and rode both mares as well. Both mares did well. I am enjoying Elle all to pieces. Now we are both resting and maybe a little sleep. I am looking forward myself to reading Elle's report.


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## egrogan

^^It's not nice to tease us like that knightrider!!!!


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## EponaLynn

Okay, can't wait to read Elle's report!

What's the holdup  :gallop:


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## Folly

Let's all just fly out there tomorrow, and see for ourselves! ;-)


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## Rain Shadow

4Horses should be scolded too. Where is the report?


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## walkinthewalk

She's probably wore out, lol. 

A whole day was lost traveling, then having to deal with the three hour time difference, then get thrown up on a horse first thing this morning --- I would probably need oxygen:dance-smiley05::dance-smiley05:

ANNND I would probably ask Knight to please do the typing while I tried to sip the wine around my oxygen tube, lollollollol


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## Rain Shadow

Seeing as I'm in Florida am I allowed to lead a search party for them if they don't turn up soon with our report?


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## walkinthewalk

Rain Shadow said:


> Seeing as I'm in Florida am I allowed to lead a search party for them if they don't turn up soon with our report?



Got my vote:gallop:


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## KAB

Knightrider I see that you have paso fino horses.Do you ride a Blacknight Mako horse thus "knightrider handle?


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## elle1959

Okay, everybody, hold your horses! It's been a very busy day (well, if you count a 3 hour nap between rides as part of being very busy). 

I am having a BLAST here! Knightrider is so nice, you can't even imagine. I've had so much fun getting to know her and her daughter and neighbor. And then there are the horses.

Today we trailered the two mares out to a local park and took them for a ride that lasted about 1.5 hours. I rode the gray mare and Knightrider rode the bay one. The gray mare is very nice. When she spooks, she spooks in place, which is good. She also has a really lovely running walk, and I was able to get her into it with a fair amount of consistency. She's FAST! 

Knightrider's neighbor met up with us there and rode out with us. He's so nice. 4horses met us afterward and took the bay mare for a quick spin with me. She is a really sweet person, as well. I feel like I've overdoing the word nice, but that's what everyone has been. 

After we rode, we came back to Knightrider's place and took a nap, which for me lasted about three hours, as I'm still adjusting to the time change. We ate dinner, watched part of a movie, and then went out to the pasture and rode Knightrider's horses around, with her daughter on Windy. I rode Chorro, and Knight rode the infamous Isabeau, who is every bit as beautiful as you would think. All the horses were very well behaved. 

It's been a wonderful day so far. I have a few pictures that I'm going to attach. Yes we are all very tired, and tomorrow we have a big day planned. A longer ride and a picnic!

Pictures are the two horses Knightrider and I rode, Knightrider and 4horses, and me with 4horses.


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## SwissMiss

Sounds like so much fun!
Nap is a very important part of the day.


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## ShirtHotTeez

Awesome, glad everyone 'clicks' and get on so well. It is soooo exciting, and we only get to virtually watch!!! It must be a real blast to be there. Hope you all really enjoy the week.

And more pics, lots and lots of pics


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## Whinnie

No one has a go-pro so we can all go on the rides as well?


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## knightrider

Today we are meeting 4horses and riding the mares on a picnic in San Felasco. Kind of a longish ride. Elle is just the best!! This has been such a fun adventure. The mares are doing great. They hadn't been ridden or even touched since January, and then it was just one weekend since November and before that, around May, and they are taking everything in stride. They didn't pasture together until I picked them up last Sunday, but they are tightly bonded now. I was proud of Elle because she was able to ride the white mare off by herself and got the job done.

Elle rode our infamous Isabeau last night. Isabeau was so quiet and well behaved, it's hard to believe everything she wrote in her journal. That is why Isabeau doesn't keep her journal any more. Who would want to read, "I went for a ride today. It was great." and the next day. "I went for a ride. It was great."

We'll try to take more pictures today. 

I don't know what a Black knight Mako is, by the way. I picked my name because I worked the Renaissance Festivals for 17 years as a jouster. I would have picked Jouster Girl or something like that, but that was taken.


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## KAB

Black Knight Mako is a famous Paso stallion from North Fl. around Williston I think.


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## egrogan

So elle, is it too early to say yet if there's a leading candidate? In the pictures, looks like you've got an affinity for the grey mare


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## jaydee

Sort of makes you feel left out doesn't it?


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## elle1959

I'm sorry. We don't mean to make anyone feel bad. I'm in the truck as we trailer the horses back from the park where we rode today. 4horses joined us for a long ride today, and I took lots of pictures, but I can't post them yet because I need a computer, so those will come later. Of the two horses I am riding the gray more, and I like her pretty much but the jury is still out. I have renamed her Gracie, so I must like her at least a little. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LoriF

Waiting for the verdict with anticipation. Glad you guys are having such a great time


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## Rain Shadow

Better start looking for a vet to do the PPE


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## ShirtHotTeez

We don't know what there names were in the first place. Looking forward to pics. Have fun


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## 4horses

Hi everyone! Sorry for my absence! We had a fantastic ride today. I rode my horse Harmony for the first half of the ride, then we switched and knight rider rode Harmony while I rode Angel. Harmony has NEVER been ridden by anyone else other than me. Well, my mom rode her for about five minutes several years ago but I'm not sure that counts. I wasn't sure how she would react to a different rider but she was perfect today and knight rider did well with her. 

Harmony is very particular about what she likes. She has a specific saddle and a specific bit, use anything else and she will let you know right away whether she likes it or not. Today I rode her English. I had picked up a saddle off of craigslist and by luck it just happened to fit. She tossed her head once at the beginning of the ride which is what she does if she doesn't like something, but I guess she decided that it fits okay. She was fine the rest of the ride. If a saddle doesn't meet her standards, she will head fling like crazy and make faces until you get off. Very dramatic! 

It looks like I'm going to be joining in on the horse search as well. I had a horse on free lease that was perfect for my riding lesson program. It was supposed to be a long term lease but things ended rather abruptly as the horse had some underlying medical issues that became apparent. I had a feeling something wasn't right but it was nothing I could put my finger on. She had days where she seemed lethargic and I just couldn't get much weight on her, despite extra feedings. But she was good under saddle, no signs of pain, did everything I asked. 

On Wednesday evening I ended up making a late night emergency call to her owner who decided to pick her up rather than get the vet out. I'm not happy about it, but it's not my horse. The owner says she is doing fine and recovered okay. I would guess the mare has Pssm, but that is just a guess. I'm not a vet. 

So I'm joining the horse search. Elle gets first pick of course. Angel is tolerant of bouncing and might be okay for less experienced riders, but she doesn't like Harmony at all. I took her over some logs today and she just steps over them for the most part which is good, if kids ride her. She's not terribly spooky, and she's pretty easy to ride. I doubt she has ever worked in an arena though. She's so tiny compared to Harmony! I can step right on her.

I liked Gracie as well. She kind of reminds me of Gus, a big grey horse I used to ride. 

Neither of them gait very consistently, but that is something they can learn.


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## knightrider

Elle is putting up the pictures tomorrow. What a great ride we had! San Felasco is rather unique to Florida as it has some good sized hills and old growth forests. My daughter calls some parts of it Mirkwood. Then we wound through swamps and did a scary water crossing. It's scary because it is terraced with railroad ties and the horses have to step down about 12 inches into thick mud, and then step down another 12 inches into the water, cross the water, and then step up about 18 inches onto a railroad tie. Harmony, 4horses' horse, does it regularly, so she gave the other two mares the lead, and we did it.

It started raining fairly steadily about halfway into the ride, and we decided maybe it was time to head home, but just when we got to a nice picnic spot with a porta potty, it stopped raining and the sun came out, so we tied up the horses and ate our sandwiches.

Everybody was having such a good time, sharing stories and getting along. The mares didn't like each other all that much, but we kept the fussy ones apart. Back at the trailers, I got a chance to let Harmony move out at her famous leg stretching extended trot, and 4horses and elle tried a canter with the two mares. I've always admired Harmony, and it was a real pleasure to ride her. She was SOOOO fun!


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## FancyMcNancy

Why is finding an honest horse seller so hard? Aren't we all in this together?


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## Werecat

That all sounds so exciting


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## horseluvr2524

Wow! you all are having boatloads of fun! That's great :grin:

I wish you luck in your search Elle! I have been silently following it.

Knightrider, you have a very interesting background! I was just at the AZ Ren faire a few weeks ago. We did go watch the joust. You'd have to be a good rider with a very secure seat to do stuff like that. We were chuckling a bit because the jousters had to put on a fake swordfight, and it had to be some of the worst stagefighting I've ever seen. But we can forgive them that since they are very talented otherwise :lol:


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## Change

It is driving me absolutely crazy that I'm not down there with y'all. Sounds like you are having so much fun! Can't wait to see more pictures, and read more about your adventures.

And I still really like that grey mare!


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## walkinthewalk

And *I* am glad they aren't geldings or my idiot self that can't ride might be parked in Knight's driveway, waiting for Elle to make her pick.

Part of why I don't ride anymore is because Rusty can be so explosive.

Just listening to *Knight,* Inwould take either or both of those mares in a skinny minute if they were geldings.

*But,* if I am paying for a horse I don't have to train, it would also have to be well broke to traffic. I have to road ride where I live ----- I don't have the energy to haul anywhere, anymore:cowboy:

*Dear Knight:*. And don't get any ideas:rofl::rofl:


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## Change

Walk - I think you'd like Cally. She's totally bombproof around traffic and I ride some pretty busy roads here. It's when we're off the road on flat, easy trails when she gets grumpy. I think she gets bored if there's nothing challenging her.


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## Foxhunter

When I was horse dealing my reputation was made, not on the good horses I sold but on the so called bad ones.

I would always take a horse back should the owner not be happy it's it. I would not pay them the same amount of money they had paid me because I knew I would have to put time into that horse to get it back to what it was. 

Thing is I could advertise a horse as being safe and sound which it would be, it would be bought by someone who wasn't particularly experienced and soon that horse would be taking advantage. 

This did not make me a dishonest seller although some people would disagree that the horse wasn't as said. The fact it took them six+ weeks to return says otherwise.


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## elle1959

FancyMcNancy said:


> Why is finding an honest horse seller so hard? Aren't we all in this together?




Apparently I'm looking for something rare: a horse that is well trained for arena work but also has lots of trail experience. These seem to be more rare than hens' teeth. 

Gracie doesn't have any training in leg cues. She's a pretty nice little trail companion, though. I'm starting to realize that I'm going to have to choose the compromises I'm willing to make and the type of work I want to put in. Some things might be easier for me than others. 

I haven't decided to buy Gracie yet. I may. I might first do a trial on the red dun I rode before, and then decide. Gracie is probably not going anywhere too fast. 

After dinner I'll come back and post some pictures from our rides over the past two days. I owe you all some pictures, I know!


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## walkinthewalk

Yes, pictures please

For me, this has been more about the adventure of meeting up with forum friends and the bonds that have been formed:loveshower:

While we all wish we could, only a few of us actually get to act on that wish. This is one on the bucket list that a bunch of us are truly enjoying.

As far as a horse that is equally as good in the arena as in on the trail, a show horse or ex show horse turned trail horse is the direction you may have to look. 

But, no horse is going to be perfection in both venues. Personally I would rather have a horse suck in the arena but is capable of saving my butt on the trails


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## elle1959

I'm so sorry! The number of pictures I had to post ended up as a problem for the computer here. I'll try hard to get at least some of them posted tomorrow. 


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## knightrider

Elle couldn't get the pictures to load. She'll try again tomorrow when we are not so tired. We left the house at 7:00 a.m. to load the horses and drive to McCully Farm where my friends and neighbors were camping. We invited Gracie's and Angel's owner to come ride with us and meet us there.

I had hoped we could ride along the Withalacoochie River, but the folks camping said the river was so high that that trail was all mud, so we agreed to ride through the pines. Gracie's owner and her friend like to gait, so we did a lot of running walk on this ride. 

Gracie's owner had loaned her friend a black Missouri Fox Trotter that she got from the Louisiana Kill Pen Company. What a lovely horse he was! He had a terrific smooth gait as well as a grand ride. Gracie's owner has been breeding and raising horses all her life, and she clearly has a good eye for horses. She has gotten 3 horses from the Louisiana Kill Pen, and she said all 3 of them have been first class. She watches and studies the videos they send her, and then moves within an hour or two to make bids on them. She told us if you wait even a day, the good ones get snatched up.

After a grand fun ride (and a couple of nice canters from Angel), the others decided it was time for lunch, so we ate our picnic under the trees. Then Elle and I set out for the trail to the river, while the others either went home, went for a golf cart ride, or took a rest. Instead of the river, we came to an impenetrable swamp, so we figured the water was just too high right now to ride along the river. The weather was perfect, and we still had a grand time.

Lucky for us, dinner was in the crock pot, so after taking care of my horses, we sat down to a hearty meal before settling in to watch yet another horse movie, this time The Return of the Black Stallion.

Tomorrow we ride early in the morning before church, then poor Elle has agreed to help me take on my two grandbabies for the day. Did I mention that she is a really good sport??? In the evening we plan to pretend my upper pasture is an arena and see how Gracie behaves in a makeshift arena.


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## ShirtHotTeez

I think you need to buy a horse from new zealand. mostly our horses just _have _to be that versatile.  Although I don't know that there are many foxtrotters here


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## Golden Horse

OOh, just caught up on this thread, how exciting......waiting now for more updates


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## Change

With patience, a trail horse can be taught the leg and seat cues expected of an 'arena' horse and vs versa, but as walk said, if you're going to be doing both, the trail horse is the way to lean. I'd rather be safe "out there" and have to work a bit more in the safety of an enclosure than be perfect in action and movement and afraid to ride the side of the road.


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## knightrider

Today we took a break from the long rides at parks we trailer to, and just did an hour and a half ride here at the house. My daughter's friend came out to ride, so we rode my 4 horses. It was a beautiful ride, and a lot of fun.

Then we got my two grandsons and took them to church. Elle was a huge help with the babies. We thought (I thought) we'd just have a quiet day at home without running off somewhere. The babies are napping right now.

After we give the babies back, we are going to get the mares and ride them in a pretend arena.


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## Folly

While we're waiting on updates - quick question/clarification from everyone. "Arena" vs "Trail"... what is generally meant by good in arena? Is it usually meant to designate a horse that is polished and can be shown in some specific discipline (dressage, wp, etc...)? or simply a horse that isn't uncomfortable or bored indoors? Or? 

Hope no one minds the tangent...


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## Avna

Folly said:


> While we're waiting on updates - quick question/clarification from everyone. "Arena" vs "Trail"... what is generally meant by good in arena? Is it usually meant to designate a horse that is polished and can be shown in some specific discipline (dressage, wp, etc...)? or simply a horse that isn't uncomfortable or bored indoors? Or?
> 
> Hope no one minds the tangent...


Yes, I have been puzzled all along by this question, thanks for asking it.


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## Folly

Avna said:


> Yes, I have been puzzled all along by this question, thanks for asking it.


Not just on this thread by any means - I've seen horses described as one or the other many times and I was just curious! 

BTW, I'm in total agreement with an earlier poster... I'm just loving this thread because of the adventure of the whole thing! Whether or not you find your match Elle. I still think the whole horse search is like dating. There's just so much to the equation. Thanks for letting us 'tag along'


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## knightrider

I'm going to answer for Elle because we've talked about it quite a lot. She can correct me if I'm wrong.

What she means by an arena horse is one that comfortably rides around in an arena, making an effort to learn things. She's tried a couple of horses that were fantastic on the trail, but in an arena, they were so antsy and nervous, ready to bolt . . .or did bolt, that there was no way they could learn anything. I owned a horse like that once myself, so I know exactly what she is talking about.

The horse I owned for 14 years was a great trail horse, a little on the hot side, but would jump anything and go anywhere, including a "Man From Snowy River" down hill. But in an arena, he was soaked with sweat, total spazzed out; the most you could do in an arena was stay on him. No one can take riding lessons on a horse like that . . . unless you do lessons on the trail, and not many people teach like that. Elle wants to take riding lessons on her horse AND trail ride.


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## elle1959

And I'll add a little bit to this. I have been taking lessons, and one of the reasons I wanted to buy a horse was so that I could practice what I'm learning in-between lessons. I can't practice what my horse doesn't know. So, while the goal that I have is mainly to ride on the trails, I also want to be a proficient rider that's good with leg cues, sidepasses, and so on. Many trail horses are not taught these things. So when I say that I want a horse that can be ridden in the arena, I mean one that is sane in the arena, doesn't mind working there and, as a bonus, has all those "buttons" already installed. 

What I'm finding, though, is that the vast majority of trail-trained horses have go, whoa, and back. Often the whoa and back aren't very good, either. They mainly know to follow or lead out, and to be reasonably not-too-spooky. That's your typical trail horse. So I'm probably going to have to buy a horse that needs to be taught the basics of leg cues or I'm going to have to attempt to refine a horse that knows those cues but is antsy in the arena due to whatever, who knows?

The red dun horse is like that. I think she knows leg cues, but I don't think she wants to be in the arena at all, for whatever reason. Gracie knows nothing about leg cues at all, so with either one of them, I'll have to put training on.


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## horseluvr2524

Elle, have you thought about a ranch broke QH or something like that? It seems that you want gaited, and that may be part of the problem in finding that perfect arena and trail horse. I don't know a lot of gaited horses or owners. The ones I do know pretty much do trail only and don't bother with the 'fancy arena' stuff.

My mother's QH was ranch broke and is fantastic. Can work a cow, no problem in the arena other than throwing a little attitude here and there, fantastic trail horse that goes anywhere and does anything. My mom learned everything on this horse and loves her to pieces.

If these two don't work out, maybe its worth considering a look at some ranch horses? There are some QH's that are pretty comfortable too!


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## ShirtHotTeez

Which ever horse you get, if you are able to use it in lessons you will be surprised how quickly you can progress, and it is very satisfying down the track to see what you have achieved as opposed to having a horse that can already do everything and you are progressing yourself. (not that there is anything wrong with that of course, its just different)

:gallop:


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## Avna

That's interesting Ellie. Shows what I know. I was under the misimpression that a good trail horse of course moved off your leg because any trail horse worth its salt would be able to be ridden through a ride gate, which is impossible without independent control of the front and rear. 

Brooke and I are working on just those things -- we are at the "standing quietly at the gate" part (this is her little challenge right now), along with refining sidepassing and backing. She had maybe six weeks under saddle when I got her but she knew leg aids at least crudely. 

Sounds like most people's 'trail horse' would be my "barely greenbroke but calm minded horse who has been on trails". 

And correct me if I'm wrong, but "not an arena horse" sounds a lot like "arena-soured horse". 

Sigh.


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## elle1959

I've been looking at some older ranch horses. Most of the old barrel racers are too fast and impatient to do lessons on. 

I'm not really looking for gaited at this point. The red dun, Cinnamon, is not gaited. Whatever horse I buy needs to be smooth and comfortable though. I originally wanted gaited only because I have osteoporosis and gaited horses are less bone jarring, but since my fall happened and I didn't break anything I am not as concerned about that. However, I do want a comfortable ride. 


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## evilamc

Hmm in my experience, even if they aren't great in the arena now, I feel most horses can learn as long as you balance arena and trail well. So they don't find the arena a punishment and still have the trails to clear there minds ya know? So sometimes start in the arena for even just 10-15 minutes before hitting the trails...then sometimes finish up in there?


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## Folly

I know exactly what you mean. My previous horse (foxtrotter mare) was good around traffic and had a lot of trail experience... but she didn't go off of leg cues at all. I underestimated how important that was to me, and although she was learning it was not coming along too fast. Also, she direct reined only - and I truly love to ride a horse that one hand neck reins... again, I finally realized that for me that was a very important thing (not for everyone, I realize). We thought we could teach her, but I was so green that it just added up to frustration all around. 

My new one is turning out to be great - I've had her almost 3 months. She was used as a barrel horse briefly but 'flunked out' because she didn't have enough attitude for that and became the mom's trail horse instead. I'm realizing she was well trained early on, and has all the buttons installed. She's a bit rusty on some things... but as I'm learning the right way to cue, I'm able to unpack what she knows. So far it seems to be a good combination and there is a so much I can learn from her... Every time I fear I've found a problem, a little focused work has fixed it (I've taken some lessons on her, but mostly am practicing alone or with friends in the arena or out). I realized I wasn't in any position to train a horse and was despairing, and then she sort of fell into my path. I hope you don't have to settle and can find the perfect match.


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## elle1959

We had a nice day today. Very low-key and relaxing, but we still managed to get a couple of rides in. 

Tomorrow is my last day in riding paradise and I'll be sleeping in while Knightrider tends to some business, then we'll be trailering out for the last ride of the visit. Her daughter will be able to join us on this ride and I'm very happy about that. 

I think I have decided not to buy the grey mare. She was pretty spooky this afternoon for some strange reason. She's also a bit hard to handle on the ground. I'm quite fond of her and it's a bit sad to decide this way, but we always said that if nothing else we would have a fun week of riding, and we have. 

I might go ahead and do a trial with the red dun. I also received a message today about a gelding for sale. He is also grey, and I might go look at him, but he won't be available to look at for a couple of weeks as his seller is traveling. 

So, that's the story so far. 


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## SwissMiss

Bummer the horses didn't really work out for you.
If you find "your" horse, you will know!
At least you had a great riding vacation and making new friends!


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## Rain Shadow

I find once a horse has done trails they are bored and hate the arena. Harley was a barrel racer when we got him. He was great in the arena then. I don't arena ride, I do trails and I took him out, took tons of training to make him a great trail horse, now he hates riding in the arena but loves the trail. 

He's bored in the arena. Ears back. Just ****y. He's not badly behaved but far less willing. 

All my trail horses can do arena work. I dabble in some jumping and I did a bit of dressage on Ty. So they have to learn but all of them like the trail better.


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## Change

Today as I was riding Cally, I realized that while she does know leg cues, she is not always responsive to them. Same with one-hand neck reining - which became very apparent as T'go was learning to be ponied and keeping one of my hands fully occupied (using a trooper saddle - no horn to dally off on. Lesson learned, next time Cally's under the old roper!). So next time I saddle up, Cally will be getting some 'refresher' training.

Years ago I bought an absolutely beautiful QH gelding who would and could do anything in the arena, and he obviously loved it there. He was quick and responsive and perfect in every way. Side pass, lateral movements, back, spin, collected canter that was incredibly smooth. Everything. If you knew how to ask, he would give. Unfortunately, he had no idea how to go outside the arena. It was a constant battle with him and he had no 'whoa' at all. At times, he was downright dangerous. His registered name was 'Narado,' but we ended up calling him 'Neurotic' most of the time. I tried everything I could think off - including tons of miles outside - to settle him, to no avail. He was exactly the same, every ride.

So - it works both ways. There are some horses that are calm, composed trail horses that hate arena work, and there are some excellent arena horses who completely freak out without walls. And yes, there are good horses that have all the buttons and are comfortable in both settings. Finding them, it seems, is more challenging than I ever realized.


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## horseluvr2524

Yes... for most people I caution against used barrel horses. A rodeo horse is not a ranch horse. In some cases it is two totally different animals. Ranch horses tend to be a lot quieter than rodeo horses, IME.
Maybe see if there are any cattle ranches in your area that still use horses, or in a neighboring state. My mom's mare, Belle, came from somewhere in AZ (we didn't buy directly from ranch).
Maybe something like this guy. I doubt he's exactly what you are looking for (16 yrs old and HUGE), but I really believe you won't find a more honest horse than a used ranch QH. Except for maybe a foxhunting horse, but those are few and far between in the USA...
Have you thought about an endurance horse? They've really done all kinds of things. Just throwing ideas out.


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## knightrider

Last day. I am sad. It has been such a good time. Elle is the best! She has talents that you can hardly imagine. She has an amazing singing voice, lots of musical talent, is terrific with kids, a great conversationalist, and is a lot better rider than she gives herself credit for. I wish she lived around here and not so far away. I am very grateful that we had this chance for a week of riding fun.

Today is her birthday, and we are meeting 4horses for a birthday ride with a picnic supper and cake later on today. It will be bittersweet, our last ride, but still lots of fun.


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## LoriF

Sounds like you guys had great fun. enjoy your last day, the weather is beautiful.


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## bsms

Avna said:


> That's interesting Ellie. Shows what I know. I was under the misimpression that a good trail horse of course moved off your leg because any trail horse worth its salt would be able to be ridden through a ride gate, which is impossible without independent control of the front and rear...
> 
> Sounds like most people's 'trail horse' would be my "barely greenbroke but calm minded horse who has been on trails".
> 
> And correct me if I'm wrong, but "not an arena horse" sounds a lot like "arena-soured horse".
> 
> Sigh.


Just a data point, or 3 or 4 of them:

None of my horses seem to know how to sidepass if I put them in the middle of an arena and ask. OTOH, when I've been in a situation where it would be a good idea - such as when Mia would jump sideways 3-6 feet and land with cactus to the front and back of her - then they all perform a sidepass just fine.

All our gates where I live are barbed wire ones. You have to get down, use your shoulder to open, then move the tangled barbed wire 'gate' out of the way. 

To piggy back on to some other threads, a good trail horse will be thinking along with his rider to try to figure out what needs to be done, and then accept his rider's choice. But it is kind of like when my wife asks me what she should do - she already has decided what she needs to do, and is asking me for support, not for ideas!

A good trail horse back east might have problems with southern Arizona. Bandit had problems when he arrived because the open country of the Navajo reservation is so different from the Sonoran desert. Unless one buys a good trail horse for a given area, the horse may still need to learn. My horses all freak at "wild water" - any puddle found in the open. They are desert horses and believe water exists in plastic buckets. Any other water is suspicious - how did it get there, and what is lurking UNDER the 1/2" of water?

Many of the trail horses near me won't know squat about working off of leg. Lots of trail riders don't use leg. When I took lessons some years back, and asked the other students - a number of whom had some years of riding - what the cue was for a canter, they looked at me as if I had 6 heads. Then one replied, "Ummm...kick harder?"

The good news is it is something easy to teach a horse. But that won't work if the buyer wants the buttons already on. OTOH, since it IS easy to teach, perhaps the instructor could teach elle to teach the horse, which gives lessons in riding AND in shaping a horse to ride the way one likes.

A lot of "trail horses" sold on Craigslist or other Internet sites means a horse who has seen a trail before, or at best one who is not inclined to spook. A genuinely good trail horse doesn't get advertised. They can be sold for a good price by letting it be known you might consider an offer.

Gotta go to work. Will add more later.


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## DraftyAiresMum

horseluvr2524 said:


> Yes... for most people I caution against used barrel horses. A rodeo horse is not a ranch horse. In some cases it is two totally different animals. Ranch horses tend to be a lot quieter than rodeo horses, IME.
> Maybe see if there are any cattle ranches in your area that still use horses, or in a neighboring state. My mom's mare, Belle, came from somewhere in AZ (we didn't buy directly from ranch).
> Maybe something like this guy. I doubt he's exactly what you are looking for (16 yrs old and HUGE), but I really believe you won't find a more honest horse than a used ranch QH. Except for maybe a foxhunting horse, but those are few and far between in the USA...
> Have you thought about an endurance horse? They've really done all kinds of things. Just throwing ideas out.


This times 1000000!!

Barrel horses are *not* ranch horses. You might find a ranch horse that can run a decent pattern, but most barrel horses are too hot for ranch work.

My old BO bought out a ranch liquidation out of New Mexico a few years back. One of the horses was a 7yo QH gelding named Levi. We called him "Levi the Wonder Horse" because he could do it all: rollbacks, spins, flying lead changes, roping, trails, arena work. A doctor and his wife bought Levi for their then-7yo daughter who was a beginner rider. That horse (now renamed Blaze) and that little girl have done it all. They've won ribbons at shows, they participate (and often win) in gymkhanas, they tear it up in 4-H, they trail ride several times a week. They'll both be 13 this year and I just love seeing them at all the local shows, still doing what they do and kicking butt.

THAT is the kind of horse you need. 

What about this guy? 

Trail Horse - Tobiano, Missouri Foxtrotter Gelding


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## egrogan

Happy birthday Elle! What a fun way to celebrate 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## elle1959

Thanks! I'm sad too, but I'm sure we'll do this again! 

Had another thought on the trail horse thing. I've had a few situations where a horse needed to get out of a situation, like backing into a thicket, and I didn't want a face full of branches while she figured it out. Having a horse that would yield hindquarters or forequarters on a trail would have been nice under those circumstances. 


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## Skyseternalangel

Happy birthday Elle!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Happy Birthday!

A horse will learn from you. 

You don’t have to be a professional trainer to add shoulder and flank control, you just have to be consistent in your cue and provide a well-timed release. That is something your trainer can help you develop by guiding you from the ground. Just because you are a novice, it doesn’t mean you can’t teach a horse what you know. They learn quickly.

I suppose what I am saying is that if you find a wonderful horse that is just what you are looking for in every other way, calm, confident, communicative, but lacks some buttons, don't underestimate your ability to install them yourself with the guidance of your trainer!


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## sarahfromsc

When I first backed my horse he didn't like puddles either, but point him towards the creek with chest high water he was fine. Puddles, he wanted to jump them of go around them. Neither was acceptable due to terrain.

So nothing to do with where one lives and rides. Maybe more to do with depth perception and the clearness of the water? I don't know.

Oh, and I live east of the Mississippi.


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## Skyseternalangel

Yep, I was less experienced than you when I got Sky. He was amazingly solid on trails, not so great in the arena. I've taught him everything he knows, and now he's super! And I've learned lots too.

I think you should look for a solid mount, one that is unflappable. You'd be surprised how keen they are to learn new things when you have the right trainer


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## elle1959

Here are a few random pictures from our trip!


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## elle1959

Skyseternalangel said:


> Yep, I was less experienced than you when I got Sky. He was amazingly solid on trails, not so great in the arena. I've taught him everything he knows, and now he's super! And I've learned lots too.
> 
> I think you should look for a solid mount, one that is unflappable. You'd be surprised how keen they are to learn new things when you have the right trainer


This is why I've decided to trial the red dun, Cinnamon. She was excellent on the trails by my barn, and plain crazy in the arena. Two weeks should be enough time to determine whether she can be salvaged for arena work or not, but the good foundation for trail work she has is hard to find. Plus, I _think_ she has buttons, just hasn't been asked to use them much in a long time.


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## LoriF

Hey I recognize that lady!!! Bummer that me and Starhorse couldn't meet up with you guys, I'm not very far away. Knightrider and 4Horses are good people and I would have loved to have met you Elle. Maybe there will be a next time.


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## Folly

elle1959 said:


> . Plus, I _think_ she has buttons, just hasn't been asked to use them much in a long time.


^THIS^

That's what I ended up with - the buttons are there, just some are rusty. It just takes a small amount of effort to get them working again. I'm no trainer, but I CAN be consistent... so it's satisfying and offers quick reward.

Hope the dun has potential.

Happy Birthday!


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## jaydee

I tried lots of trail horses when I was looking for a replacement for Flo and I don't think I rode a single one that wasn't like a lump of lead - they all felt like they needed a cattle prod up their rear ends to get them going and keep them going and some were pretty awful in an arena. I know that I have to ride in an arena quite a lot because of time constraints and having no access to trails unless we load the horses on to a trailer so I ended up choosing a horse that had done equitation classes - albeit a bit rusty as she'd had a lot of time off being a brood mare but she knew her stuff and soon picked it up again, she hadn't got a spooky temperament and wasn't the sort to over react if anything did scare her so after a few trail rides where she was slightly over excited she soon got the hang of it all


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## elle1959

Well, I am sad tonight. My lovely journey is coming to an end, and I said a reluctant goodbye to Gracie, who will now be called Squirrel again. 

We had another nice ride with 4horses. Gracie led out, a little spookier than usual. I've learned that she has a little pre-spook posture she adopts when she's worried, and she was doing that a bit, with some minor crow hopping tossed in. 

At one point, she pre-spooked and turned to look in the direction of some trees. I clucked and urged her forward and then "CRASH!" Down came part of a tree trunk just to the right of the trail. ALL the horses jumped and spun and carried on horribly... except Gracie, who flinched in place and then stood there for me while all the others acted stupid. 

It did affect her, though, as she wouldn't lead out afterwards, and I wonder if it might have been different if she hadn't been the lead horse. She did really well, though. I was so proud of her. 

So we said our goodbyes. After seeing her reaction there I am not altogether certain that I'm making the right decision, but perhaps she will still be available if I do change my mind. She's a clunky, big mare with a pushy attitude and no buttons, but I sure did grow fond of her. It almost felt like she might have been growing fond of me, too. 


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## walkinthewalk

We all hate to see this trip come to an end - it has been joyful for all of us.

Squirrel ---- SQUIRREL?!?! I vote she keeps being called "Gracie".

Gracie sounds pretty smart. She knew the tree was falling apart and she spooked in place while others had a meltdown. 

Again I say ----- I'm glad she's not a gelding. 

I guess I could deal with a mare but Rusty is a baddy-bad gelding when mares come in heat. He is the worst stallion-like gelding I have ever owned, when he is around mares. 

I too old for that kind of battle and I am not separating any more horses, lol

But alas you will be going home with some fantastic memories and the pictures to prove it


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## ShirtHotTeez

Gracie just went up in my esteem


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## elle1959

I wanted to also post this picture today, but I forgot. This is me making googly-eye faces, with Knightrider's adorable grandbabies. I fell in love with the older one. They are both precious little angels! We're playing horsies and trains. There's a dinosaur in there, too.


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## Rain Shadow

Do Gracie's owners have a big pinto Tennessee walker named Apache? I swear I know a grey that looks just like her named Squirrel.


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## FancyMcNancy

Im sad the trip and story have come to an end. A horse search is fun and frustrating. It's often hard to know when the "perfect for you" horse has come along. Im on a horse search myself and have tried 4. The first 3 seemed a little fast and I went to see the 4th somewhat on a whim. Her pictures seemed nice then when I saw her she was more fine-boned that i expected. I like a horse that walks in the pen one hip at a time. She was sweet and was being shown to me at the local covered arena due to rain. She's young and has never really left home and pretty much took the random 40 + horses walking, jogging and loping around her in stride. I was still hung up on how narrow her shoulders were and how dainty she looked and didn't much like her. .....then i rode her...... Soft jog you could sit all day and a rocking chair lope with lots of athleticism and softness in her mouth. Im still on the fence and have 4 or 5 others to look at. It's really fun looking and I keep thinking that when the right one comes along i won't have any reservations. Hard to know. I just wish my horse search included some really cool friends and an amazing trip. I shouldve planned better


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## knightrider

About the big pinto named Apache, Gracie's owners very well might have one. I believe they own 20 horses and they are amazingly generous about loaning out horses and doing free leases. The big black gelding in the first photo is the kill pen Missouri Fox trotter that she got for $350 who has a super gait and a great disposition. She free leased that horse out to her friend who is riding him in the picture.

The lady in the front is our own Elle, and the lady next to the black fox trotter is Gracie and Angel's owner. The two men in the back are my two neighbors.

Angel went on to 4horses who hopes to use her in her lesson program, and if that doesn't work, sell her. If I needed another horse, I would have bought Angel after riding her for 4 days. Something about her really suited me.

In just a couple of hours I take Elle to the airport and it will be all over. It's been a super time . . . but I do hope we do it again. Elle suggested we give folks more time and make it a group trip, perhaps camping in some place together. Wouldn't that be great? Something to anticipate.


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## LoriF

Angel is the little bay right? I liked her look. If plans are made for a group camping trip, I'm in.


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## walkinthewalk

*Knight,* I "Liked" your take-Elle-to-the-airport post, but I didn't like all of it.

I hate to see all of this fun with new-found friends come to an end.

*Elle, * safe flight home and happy dreams if you get to nap on the plane


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## elle1959

Thanks everyone! It's really been fun having everyone following along on this adventure. Knightrider and her family were so kind to welcome me with open arms and we really had a wonderful time. I'm sitting in the airport waiting for my first of three plane rides. Have a a very short layover in Charlotte so I hope I don't miss my flight! 

The horse search continues. I still have the option to buy Squirrel/Gracie, and after she was so good yesterday, I think it's still an option. For now, though, I need to get back to work and take care of business. I have two client meetings tomorrow and if I'm lucky I'll walk away from both of them with some steady work at a good hourly rate. If I'm really lucky I'll be able to stop driving for Uber and free up some time for more horse shopping!


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## knightrider

On the way to the airport, Elle and I had an interesting discussion, so I thought I might share it with those who might be interested. One of the main reasons Elle wasn't keen on Gracie was her pushy ground manners. Elle said her trainer was a real stickler for ground manners. I got the impression (correct me if I'm wrong, Elle) that her trainer felt that if the horse didn't respect you on the ground, it wouldn't respect you in the saddle.

The interesting thing to me is that may or may not be true. For some riders and some horses, that is probably quite true. Elle said that the more she corrected Diva, the more intense the battles got. I see a parallel with BSMS's little arab mare. And some other horses I have known or owned as well. As BSMS says, there are times when you get more out of a horse by going through the back door.

I started training unbroken colts when I was 12 and nobody told me what would and would not work. I just kind of went along to get along and it all turned out good. When the colt acted up, I kind of eased it along, not giving in, but not starting a fight either. It seemed like the right thing to do, and it must have been because the two colts I started at age 12 turned out to be nice riding horses.

Elle doesn't know what she doesn't know, so she has nothing to go on. If she had 30 years of riding, she'd know if Gracie's lack of ground manners would matter toher or not. But she doesn't, so she probably made the right decision for now. In 10 years she will know more.

Just about every horse I've owned I started myself and some of them had impeccable ground manners and some of them not so great. The worst mare with ground manners was a lovely riding mare that I could trust with any beginner, won me lots of championships in the show ring, and a belt buckle for versatility in one show season--the most points accumulated for English pleasure, Western pleasure, jumping, and speed events. She was a grand lady, but she was not very nice on the ground. I never worried about it much because she was fine to ride, never escalated anything with me, and I bought her as a yearling and kept her all her life. I had to endure some snotty comments over the years about how I should teach her better manners, and I did try, but it never sank in. She loved me very much, and I loved her, and it was good. The horse I bought to replace her was an unhandled 4 year old and she had lovely ground manners.

On our ride to the airport, Elle told me that her trainer would really get after Diva rather harshly, and one reason why she decided to sell her was that she wasn't comfortable with all that yelling and smacking. I was thinking about some other horses I've trained who would also not do well with yelling and smacking. Could it be possible that the trainer created some of the problems? I wonder. BSMS's little mare, I think would not do well with yelling and smacking. I think she might also be one of those who just escalates the fight and turns the rides into battles. Perhaps Diva needed the back door approach. 

I did think that Elle handled Gracie appropriately--firmly, but not unduly harsh. Whether it would have gotten Gracie some lovely ground manners or whether it would have even mattered, we'll never know. It's possible that Elle and Gracie would have just gone along having nice rides with less than ideal ground manners. Just something I was thinking about all day today.


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## Folly

Interesting thoughts - My riding companion (the friend who got me started on this grand adventure a few years ago) sounds a bit like you, Knight. She's basically trained the horse she rides currently... and that mare is too pushy and intimidating for me to handle comfortably, but my friend and she are a great team. They 'get' each other. Like you, she grew up training her own and it works well for her. I on the other hand have had to have a crash course in 'horse sense'... I am learning, but have a lot of trouble recognizing what's benign behavior and what is a herd intimidation behavior, so I've found I really have to have be around a horse with good ground manners. That's one reason I broke up with my previous horse... she was a bit pushy, and it did seem to carry over into the saddle (at least with green riders... not just me... though an experienced rider could better manage it). Anyway, I just need very obvious signs of respect so that's one less thing I'm trying to figure out. Does that rambling make sense in any way? I don't want to speak for Elle, but that's where I'm at.


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## walkinthewalk

*Knight, *. There are some horses that are what I call "Arab-like" in their thinking.

They do not like being told what to do and often have to think your idea is their idea before they think it's ok -- sorta like husbands, lollol

The Pusher line of Tennessee Walkers is very much like that. I had a Pusher grandson and I soon learned if I treated him like he was an Arab, took my time, cajoled him, he would do anything I asked and then some. He was intelligent to his own "Arab" undoing.

Sadly I lost him in a freak pasture accident as a coming four year old, or he would still be here and I wouldn't have Joker.

Anyway, I agree 1,000% there are horse that flat out refuse to be pushed around. The less forceful they are asked to do something, the more the trainer gets.

That kind of horse can be most difficult for a new owner or even a re-rider who didn't have much experience with lesser broke horses to begin with.

How a horse is handled to get optimal co-operation is everything. While my base idea of handling a horse has always been the same, I take different paths as soon as I think I've figured out how the horse thinks.

And that segways into me saying everyone should read Mark Rashid's older books. "A Good Horse Is Not A Bad Color" is one that comes to mind


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## knightrider

Where's the like button in this new system?? I like. Thanks.


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## Acadianartist

I just read through this entire thread which only popped up on my feed when the interface changed... weird. Anyway, it was fascinating. What an amazing trip to see knightrider! 

I will soon be looking for horse # 2 and so I was particularly interested in the process. As many of you know, I bought our Arab Harley last fall for my 11 yr old daughter. She and I both ride him, but he is a bit forward. She is timid of his canter because when he starts, she has a real hard time stopping him. She does jump him though, but only one or two jumps, a few canter strides, then back and a trot so he doesn't get carried away. For my part, I've found him spooky on trails. I love riding him, but worry that he will never be a very good trail horse and that's mainly what I plan on doing. However, he is such a sweetheart in so many ways and is so talented in the arena (he excelled as a dressage horse before we got him) so I can't see myself selling him. But our second horse should be dead quiet, super-broke, easy to ride on trails and completely beginner safe. Horse # 2 does not need to be able to jump or be shown (that's what Harley is for). The idea is that he might be a calming influence on Harley out on trails. So far, I am not finding any horses that fit that description. 

I wondered about the wisdom of putting up an ISO ad... Elle, what are your thoughts? I worry that by doing so, I may be attracting the wrong kind of seller. You know, the kind that has the "perfect" horse for me (because I specified in my ad what I'm looking for, it might be all to easy for them to claim their horse has all those qualities). On the other hand, there may be perfectly good horses wasting away in pastures that are not being advertised because their owners don't want to risk having them fall in the wrong hands. Did you get a lot of disappointing leads? 

I liked Gracie, but then again I am partial go grays. You have to feel the connection.


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## elle1959

I'm home! What a fabulous week! Have much to do now that I'm back but wanted to pop in quickly and wave "howdy" to everyone. Knightrider was such a wonderful hostess. I'm very grateful that we got to spend this time together and hope that it's only the first of many visits.


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## horseluvr2524

Late happy birthday and glad you got home safe Elle!

Interesting thoughts Knightrider. I am just starting out myself doing horse training on the side. Basically the philosophy I follow is that horses are individuals and need different handling and training methods. From there, I just follow my instincts.
I have one client but ride multiple horses for them. After about a month of riding/training there, they gave me a huge compliment in that they liked having a trainer that was more laid back, versus the other ones they have had who were rather aggressive. Yet, they had seen me get after their horses before about certain things, usually safety related dangerous behavior. The stance I take with horses is that I'm the herd leader. I don't use excessive force and I only get after them if I need to. Corrections if needed are hard and fast, not drawn out with a lot of yelling.

You're mini article made me think about one of their OTTBs that I absolutely love. He can be an absolute jerk on the ground but is a dream to ride, so much that if we did not have plans to move I would probably try to buy him. I can take him into the round pen and he will do all the groundwork exercises off and on lead. He's horrible to tie and hold however. He wiggles his head and gnaws at the bit when standing, is a rather aggressive head rubber/scratcher, and I've been whacked in the head by him more than once with his antics. The only way I can get him to not swing his butt into me when I am grooming and tacking is to carry a dressage whip. He soon learned that swinging his weight into me was never acceptable and he was likely to get whacked for it. He also learned that kicking is not acceptable. He gets better every week with these things.
Without someone on his back he acts crazy. Turn him out by himself and he's a lunatic. Get on his back and you have a different horse. He is an AMAZING ride. I have never felt so much power underneath me and I have ridden many many thoroughbreds. The bit they had for him was a tom thumb. I ride him in a D-ring snaffle and never feel unsafe. He picks up leg and seat cues quickly. We go out and ride the trail alone for miles and miles, doing a lot of trotting and I felt safe enough to let him canter up a couple hills last time. I really do love riding this horse, but its a give and take because his antics of trying to look at everything on the ground and ending up whacking me in the head get annoying. I'm working with him on it, but in a way I think its just his quirk.

There is a mare who will not stand still to mount. When you try to get on she turns and turns and turns. No amount of holding her head to the side in one rein stop position would convince her to stand. Yet when I finally got my foot in the stirrup, she would stand. So I spent a good... maybe half hour at most working with her on this. For the not standing, I took a different approach. I still held her head pulled to the side mildly, and if she wouldn't stop I took my fist and put gentle pressure between her shoulder and the girth. She stopped! That was the trick and by the time we were done she was standing quietly for mounting on BOTH sides.
I don't know where the idea for the solution came from. I do a lot of it by instinct, and I think I was thinking "I need to stop the motion" and tried pressure behind the moving shoulder. Voila! Getting mad and yelling or back her hard or anything like that was not going to work and I did not even attempt it. Her irritating mounting circling came from nervousness and bottled up energy. It may not have been that she was upset or afraid, just eager to go, resulting in nervous energy.

My own mare, any issues with her like balking or half rears, any throws of attitude are corrected hard and fast because I learned the hard way how quickly she escalates. If you catch her before she really gets going, you're fine. She is pushy, but has perfect ground manners with me. Anyone else handles her that doesn't correct her pushiness is going to be extremely frustrated. One of the stable hands is insistent that she is evil, which gets on my nerves but I let it roll off my shoulders. I have met a lot of very talented horsemen and women and they tend to like my spunky little mare. They can see the intelligence and talent in her, beyond her pushy attitude. (she's also possessive and tries to get between husband and me, lol!)

My thoughts on your thoughts.


----------



## tinyliny

knightrider said:


> On the way to the airport, Elle and I had an interesting discussion, so I thought I might share it with those who might be interested. One of the main reasons Elle wasn't keen on Gracie was her pushy ground manners. Elle said her trainer was a real stickler for ground manners. I got the impression (correct me if I'm wrong, Elle) that her trainer felt that if the horse didn't respect you on the ground, it wouldn't respect you in the saddle.
> 
> The interesting thing to me is that may or may not be true. For some riders and some horses, that is probably quite true. Elle said that the more she corrected Diva, the more intense the battles got. I see a parallel with BSMS's little arab mare. And some other horses I have known or owned as well. As BSMS says, there are times when you get more out of a horse by going through the back door.
> 
> I started training unbroken colts when I was 12 and nobody told me what would and would not work. I just kind of went along to get along and it all turned out good. When the colt acted up, I kind of eased it along, not giving in, but not starting a fight either. It seemed like the right thing to do, and it must have been because the two colts I started at age 12 turned out to be nice riding horses.
> 
> Elle doesn't know what she doesn't know, so she has nothing to go on. If she had 30 years of riding, she'd know if Gracie's lack of ground manners would matter toher or not. But she doesn't, so she probably made the right decision for now. In 10 years she will know more.
> 
> Just about every horse I've owned I started myself and some of them had impeccable ground manners and some of them not so great. The worst mare with ground manners was a lovely riding mare that I could trust with any beginner, won me lots of championships in the show ring, and a belt buckle for versatility in one show season--the most points accumulated for English pleasure, Western pleasure, jumping, and speed events. She was a grand lady, but she was not very nice on the ground. I never worried about it much because she was fine to ride, never escalated anything with me, and I bought her as a yearling and kept her all her life. I had to endure some snotty comments over the years about how I should teach her better manners, and I did try, but it never sank in. She loved me very much, and I loved her, and it was good. The horse I bought to replace her was an unhandled 4 year old and she had lovely ground manners.
> 
> On our ride to the airport, Elle told me that her trainer would really get after Diva rather harshly, and one reason why she decided to sell her was that she wasn't comfortable with all that yelling and smacking. I was thinking about some other horses I've trained who would also not do well with yelling and smacking. Could it be possible that the trainer created some of the problems? I wonder. BSMS's little mare, I think would not do well with yelling and smacking. I think she might also be one of those who just escalates the fight and turns the rides into battles. Perhaps Diva needed the back door approach.
> 
> I did think that Elle handled Gracie appropriately--firmly, but not unduly harsh. Whether it would have gotten Gracie some lovely ground manners or whether it would have even mattered, we'll never know. It's possible that Elle and Gracie would have just gone along having nice rides with less than ideal ground manners. Just something I was thinking about all day today.


i think for every horse owner who thinks that indulging the horse's bad behaviour out of some misguided idea that punishing it would ruin their bond, there is a horse owner that thinks that EVERY instance of less than perfect ground behavior must be tackled with textbook severity, eradicated, or, you won't have a 'good' horse. they are two sides of a same coin, meaning both are lacking in sensible use of moderation.


one is the horse owner who says, "I would never hit my horse because . . . ." and the other saysn " I would never let my horse get away with . . . . . "


----------



## Change

Happy to hear your made it back home safely, *Elle*. I am still so jealous of not being able to come down and join you all for a day or two. It sounds like you had so much fun! And belated Happy Birthday!

My thoughts on *Knightrider's *and subsequent poster comments: No one taught me how to train. I rode a lot and figured out what works and what doesn't. That knowledge translated into what I wanted a horse to be like and my training sort of stemmed from that. I've had babies that fought me every step of the way, and babies who were stumbling over themselves in their attempts to please me. I've had some horses that I had to be 'bigger and meaner' than in order to get them right, and some I've had to downright bribe into things. Most are usually somewhere in between, and you just have to read them and act accordingly. I don't insist of perfect ground manners, but I do set boundaries - nicely at first, being a little more forceful if the message isn't being received.

And I agree with *Knightrider's *thoughts about Diva and the trainer. 

Anyway, *Elle *- I hope you take the little red dun for a trial period, and I hope she learns to relax in the arena. Based on Diva's experiences, though, I'd recommend getting her used to arena work without lessons, first.


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## elle1959

Don't forget that when you all were learning you had a lifetime ahead of you. I am 57 years old and don't have the luxury of time to figure it all out! 

I should clarify that I have had two people involved in my horsey life as professionals. There was a trainer, who I thought was very forward with Diva, though she never, ever hit her. She did do a lot of liberty work with Diva and I thought she was aggressive with her, snapping the whip and working her in what looked to me like a state of fear. I don't work with that person anymore and stopped working with her when I moved Diva to the barn close to my home. 

There is also my riding instructor. She is the person who is very much a stickler about ground manners and I'm pretty sure she would be hugely disappointed if I ended up buying another super pushy horse. She never worked with Diva, but I told her the problems I had been having with her.


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## bsms

I love reading the comments on training horses! I started at 50, spent the next 7 years completely overwhelmed with a "too much for him horse" - who I adored - and am now trying to learn riding at 58 with a horse who is much closer to my ability. I'm a better rider from the last year with Bandit, but I got hooked on riding because of Mia, and what she taught me shapes how I work Bandit.

I guess that is true of most who get horses. Unless you are a dullard who resists learning - and there are PLENTY of those around, riding after 40 years the way they did after 40 days! - you try different things, keep those that work and toss aside those that do not. One of the things I really respected about the lady who worked with Mia was that she was a bit overwhelmed too, although she had 40+ years around horses. But instead of saying, "This has worked for me before", she watched, thought, adapted, and ended up taking a very different approach with Mia - because different was what Mia needed.

Bandit has a much higher tolerance for rough handling, but that doesn't mean rough handling is what he needs. Most of the time.

"_I don't use excessive force and I only get after them if I need to. Corrections if needed are hard and fast, not drawn out with a lot of yelling._"

"_They are two sides of a same coin, meaning both are lacking in sensible use of moderation._"​ 
Both of those comments struck home (as did many others). Even a Diva needs to be reminded at times that she needs to get on stage and perform...and even a stage hand can respond well to "Please".

This was yesterday:



bsms said:


> ...So in the snaffle, we went riding down the street. He saw a trashcan lying on its side. So what? I asked him for a trot. As we got closer...he ducked and did a 180!
> 
> I'm not a big fan of "My Way or The Highway", but I'm also not a fan of "Duck & Spin". So I yanked his face around, and the 180 became a 360. He decided to fuss, shaking his head and stargazing. I decided if he wanted a fight, he'd get one. So in the middle of the paved street...when his head went up, my hands went up. We did lots of side to side pulling. As long as he was going to fuss, I was going to be a jerk. Literally, I suppose.
> 
> When he stopped, I stopped. Told him to go forward. He went. Not happy, but he went. We went 100 yards forward, did a 180, then 200 yards back. Then a 180, and we spent the next 25 minutes riding back and forth past that darn garbage can. With slack reins, although not a LOT of slack!
> 
> Then we went home and did some trotting in the cones of confusion. Then called it quits. When I cleaned the corral at sundown, he followed me around begging for wither scratches (which he got), so I guess he isn't traumatized. I'm all for MUTUALLY ACCEPTABLE solutions, but "Duck & Spin" ain't MUTUALLY acceptable!
> 
> Need Motrin for my back and left leg. I suspect he could use some Anbesol. The difference is I'll GET the Motrin! Wouldn't mind some red wine, but we're all out.
> 
> Horses...tell me again why I like riding? :icon_rolleyes:


Looking back...I misread Bandit and pushed him harder than he was ready to go. But Bandit misread me, too, and expected to get something he didn't get from his "Duck & Spin". And after thinking about it overnight, I suspect I need to push Bandit harder. Not in the sense of kicking him or getting a whip to "make him" go forward. I think that would prove little more use than it proved on Mia years ago. But I need to accept some risk of an explosion in order to get him out of his comfort zone, because his comfort zone won't get bigger unless we push the boundaries. And when you push the boundaries, sometimes you make a mistake and PASS the boundaries!

In terms of getting a horse for a new rider, although not a totally inexperienced rider...I wouldn't worry about having all the buttons. Learning how to put the buttons on in an arena is not all that hard if you have a good instructor. It is harder but not impossible if you are trying to do it on your own, as I have. But the mutual learning is a big part of appreciating what horses are like.

Bandit came here with a lot of miles on him, mostly in a bosal. A bit, to him, meant "Slam on the emergency brakes", because that is how he was taught. He used his leg and thus his back wrong, although an 800 lb horse who carried 250 lbs of rider and saddle might have used his back poorly regardless. Try to do circles on him, and he'd do pentagons instead. Maybe squares. I was told he neck reined, but he hid it well if he did.

Without a trainer to help, he'd be too much of a problem for a brand new rider. But with a trainer...well, he likes people. He's a forgiving horse. He lacks confidence, but isn't timid. He'll tolerate rough handling, but doesn't like it. He needed 6 months without shoes to figure out how to use his feet and leg correctly. He still prefers to be trotted in two point, but two point is an outstanding way to learn and practice moving with your horse's balance.

If his leg hadn't been screwed up with bad shoeing, I suspect elle1959 and a trainer could have had him doing well in 3-4 months. A Colonel told me once he hired people based on attitude. "_I can teach them how to do the job, but it is hard to teach a good attitude._" That mirrors my experience. If someone had a good attitude, I could teach them almost anything. If they didn't, then sometimes my best efforts left me with a lump of rock salt wearing a uniform.

I've come to appreciate Bandit for who he is and what he is teaching me. I might sell him in a year. Or I might keep him for 20. I miss the manners and attitude of the two Arabian mares I've owned, and would actually like to replace him with a young Arabian mare...just not quite as much of an "Arabian Mare" as Mia was!

It is also OK to buy a horse knowing you might ride him for 1-3 years, then move on. If you improve the horse in that time, and get him/her softer and more responsive, there will be a market at the end. But if I ever buy another horse, I'll look for decent conformation and the right attitude. I'll assume the buttons are missing, and it is up to me to sew them on - maybe with a trainer's help. That is part of the fun.


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## Folly

elle1959 said:


> Don't forget that when you all were learning you had a lifetime ahead of you. I am 57 years old and don't have the luxury of time to figure it all out!


kind of stinks, doesn't it?? I'm 53 and that's how I feel. I need a headstart, so to me it was important to have certain buttons installed. My first horse didn't have them (but she did have attitude lol), so we broke up and she went to a lady (older than me!) who has that lifetime of experience.

Don't kow how bsms did it - but kudos!!


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## DraftyAiresMum

Elle, here's another mare in my area that seems like what you're looking for. I've seen this mare at schooling shows and in the local parades and she's about as quiet as they come. 

Fantastic Trail Horse


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## Werecat

I, a lot of the time feel that I am at a disadvantage due to not growing up riding even though I wanted to be, but I am grateful I am able to now. I am self employed and work from home, and the companies I work with are aware of my schedule being a tad unconventional so that I have my days free to work at minimum 2-5 hours a day with my horse. As others have said, he has really no real buttons (other than he doesn't need any real encouragement other than "kissing/clucking" to have him change gaits, and "whoa" to slow him down through the gaits, which I taught him for trail riding), but he is incredibly sure footed/confident and not spooky on the trail. Though his ground manners are somewhat lacking, for instance, he'll crowd you, though we're working on that.

My horse was given to me by a trusted source, so I was able to have the peace of mind that even though he had his training holes, I knew he wasn't dangerous for me to handle. However, I was shopping around before I got him, and it was so stressful I almost got discouraged. I seriously commend you for being so diligent in your search! It's really awesome how it's brought such quality people into your life, and friendships that could very well last a life time!

I would've leaped on the opportunity to try that mare bout that Drafty just posted when I was horse shopping, haha.


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## jaydee

Thanks to you all for sharing this 'get together' with the rest of the forum, I've really enjoyed reading it


I don't think there is any such thing as a perfect horse, its more like when you think about buying one you have to decide if you can work with their failings or even learn to live with them. Sometimes you can remove problems or at least dilute them enough that they aren't really a problem any more but not always.
There are times when hitting a horse for doing something 'wrong' works and there are times when it makes them much worse - an over reactive horse is never an easy one to deal with.


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## sarahfromsc

My great Grammy told me when I started dating, "It's just as easy loving a rich man as a poor one."

I then turned it around for horses when shopping for one: " it's just as easy loving a well trained not so pretty horse, as a pretty but not well trained one."


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## knightrider

Elle, how far are you from Prescot, AZ? Does the ad say how old the mare is? That is my only concern, that she might be rather old. She's lovely.


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## DraftyAiresMum

knightrider said:


> Elle, how far are you from Prescot, AZ? Does the ad say how old the mare is? That is my only concern, that she might be rather old. She's lovely.


She's closer to me than she was to you. :lol:

IIRC the mare is in her early teens. Maybe 12 or 13? I can email and ask.


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## LoriF

Yay!!! We all might get to take a virtual trip to Arizona. She does seem to be a nice mare.


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## DraftyAiresMum

I don't recall seeing a budget number anywhere, but there's this guy, as well. Doesn't say he's a retired ranch horse, but he might as well be with all his qualifications. :lol:

Buckskin Gelding

And again, this mare (if you didn't see her the first time I posted her):

http://prescott.craigslist.org/grd/5530515727.html


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## DraftyAiresMum

Yet another few:

Beautiful Black Missour Foxtrotter Mare

Fox Trotter Appaloosa Mare

Exceptional Gray QH Mare - 8-Year Old

A bit tall, but seems like a nice boy:

Phenomenal Gelding for Sale


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## Captain Evil

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I don't recall seeing a budget number anywhere, but there's this guy, as well. Doesn't say he's a retired ranch horse, but he might as well be with all his qualifications. :lol:
> 
> Buckskin Gelding
> 
> And again, this mare (if you didn't see her the first time I posted her):
> 
> Beautiful Registered Foxtrotter Mare


Wow, I really like that buckskin! And the mare looks so sweet...


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## elle1959

Just to clarify, the horses in Florida were super cheap, so trailering one out would have been the majority of my budget there. That's the only reason I could afford to think about doing it that way. The top of my budget is around $4k but I'd love to spend less than that, since I've been paying stall rent, and that's adding up and chipping away at the horse fund. 

I'll look at the AZ horses a little later. Recovering from a migraine this afternoon. So glad that didn't hit while I was in Florida! I had two potential client meetings scheduled and when I sat down with the first guy I looked over and only saw half of his face due to migraine aura. So that was an interesting meeting, but I got work out of it, and probably a lot of work, at that. I canceled the second meeting since by then my head was really pounding and now I have enough painkillers in me to tamp it down to a dull roar. 

Thank you all for your thoughts and encouragement as I try to figure this all out.


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## elle1959

DraftyAiresMum said:


> A bit tall, but seems like a nice boy:
> 
> Phenomenal Gelding for Sale


This guy sounds like exactly what I want, except for his size, assuming he's truly great on trails. A lot of them say they are, but they end up being crazy looky and spooky. 

Size is not a dealbreaker, though.

It's 12 hours driving distance to Prescot from here. Since I'm taking on new work, I don't know if I have the time for another road trip, but it's tempting


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## knightrider

Wow, those AZ horses sure look nice! All of them. Road trip to AZ!!!


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## DraftyAiresMum

Just heard back from the owner of the paint. She's 18.


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## DraftyAiresMum

My experience has been that people around here (unless they're the known horse flippers) don't exaggerate what their horse is. And the ones who do, you can see through in a New York minute.


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## knightrider

Elle, hope your migraine is better. Those things are miserable. Glad you got the job!


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## Change

knightrider said:


> Wow, those AZ horses sure look nice! All of them. Road trip to AZ!!!


Swing a bit north to pick me up and I'll take you for a Stagecoach ride when we get there! 

I think I fell in love with a buckskin boy I can't afford! :icon_rolleyes:


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## DraftyAiresMum

Change said:


> I think I fell in love with a buckskin boy I can't afford! :icon_rolleyes:


Me too. Lol


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## Change

and *Elle *- what *Knightrider *said. Congrats about the job (bye-bye Uber)! Sorry about the migraine. Ouch. I still get 'silent' migraines with the nauseating aura accompanied by mild pressure, but I don't get the 'my head is going to explode' ones anymore. 

Take drugs. Feel better.


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## elle1959

Change said:


> and *Elle *- what *Knightrider *said. Congrats about the job (bye-bye Uber)! Sorry about the migraine. Ouch. I still get 'silent' migraines with the nauseating aura accompanied by mild pressure, but I don't get the 'my head is going to explode' ones anymore.
> 
> Take drugs. Feel better.


I used to just get the aura and very little headache. My headaches still aren't as bad as some people get--unless I have a very high tolerance for pain and just don't know. I do get them, but it's usually something I can dampen down with a few Aleve and maybe a Norco. It might last for days, but I just keep taking the pain meds, and I roll on until it goes away. 

Today is the first time I've had the visual aura twice in one day. Now that was something special that I hope never happens again.


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## Change

My visual aura would start as "sparklies" at the peripheries of my vision. Sometimes, if I got to an Aleve or three fast enough, that's all I'd get. If not, they'd migrate in toward the center. It's like trying to see past Michael Jackson's glitter glove being held 5" from my face! I can still "see," but at the same time, I can't. What's really bad is when it comes on fast, and I'm at work and know I have to drive home while that silver hand is hovering in the air in front of me. Talk about scary! 

Now, I get the edge sparklies, I pack up my computer and head home.


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## EponaLynn

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I don't recall seeing a budget number anywhere, but there's this guy, as well. Doesn't say he's a retired ranch horse, but he might as well be with all his qualifications. :lol:
> 
> Buckskin Gelding
> 
> And again, this mare (if you didn't see her the first time I posted her):
> 
> Beautiful Registered Foxtrotter Mare


Two nice horses Drafty, good find!


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## Avna

I found this guy on FB:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=485257948339233&set=gm.1739768939601095&type=3&theater

Leopard appy gelding in Paradise (near Chico). His description is everything you want . . .


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## elle1959

Thank you, Avna. I just sent this seller a PM.


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## elle1959

Change said:


> My visual aura would start as "sparklies" at the peripheries of my vision. Sometimes, if I got to an Aleve or three fast enough, that's all I'd get. If not, they'd migrate in toward the center. It's like trying to see past Michael Jackson's glitter glove being held 5" from my face! I can still "see," but at the same time, I can't. What's really bad is when it comes on fast, and I'm at work and know I have to drive home while that silver hand is hovering in the air in front of me. Talk about scary!
> 
> Now, I get the edge sparklies, I pack up my computer and head home.


 Mine go in the opposite direction. The sparklies start in the center and move outward. It is like someone has something sparkly in front of your face. You can see, but you can't. Hard to describe.


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## walkinthewalk

*Change and Elle,* I cannot like your migraine posts

I have a friend who used to get migraines so bad, her husband had to drive her to the ER and they would give her a shot of morphine:eek_color::eek_color:

She got a lot of migraines but that severity was only a few times yearly.

I have only had one legitimate migraine in my life. I do not know how you folks stay functional, having to live with those gawd-awful things.

I think I might not have stopped drinking if I had to deal with them, like you folks do:sad::sad:


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## egrogan

Sounds like we need a migraine subforum! I get awful headaches every month- it's like my left eye is being pushed out of my head from the inside out. A terrible, throbbing pain behind the eye. It gets very challenging because I spend all day on the computer working with complex data analysis and reporting. Sometimes I just need to take an unscheduled afternoon off because I just can't look at the computer. It's amazing how everyone's experiences with them are so different. I've never seen the aura, but sounds terrible!


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## elle1959

The aura is a precursor to the headache. For me it lasts about 45 minutes, and then the headache starts. They are sort of a blessing because you can take a few Aleve when the aura hits (unless you are in a business meeting) and then by the time the headache part would come, it's already working in your system. 

I get migraine with and without aura, but lately it's been mainly with.


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## walkinthewalk

Avna said:


> I found this guy on FB:
> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=485257948339233&set=gm.1739768939601095&type=3&theater
> 
> Leopard appy gelding in Paradise (near Chico). His description is everything you want . . .


 
Did everyone notice that guy is riding that horse in nothing but a rope halter?

It's a good thing that horse trots and is a 2+ days away from me.

*Elle, *you need to find something soon, before I do something I have no business doing --- I'm tired looking at all these horses and thinking "oh I want that one ---- AND that one ---------------annnnnd that one!

I have one perfectly fine horse in the pasture. Excellent ground manners. I can move his 16.1H self with one finger on his chest, his forearm, his rump.

I can pick up his hooves with a one-finger tap on the fetlock joint. 

I fall under him sometimes and he holds his breath until I get up.

But there is the little matter of his insecurity when he is alone, going down the road. He can dip & spin to give me change for dime, and make a lot of QH's who do that for a living look bad. It's his inherent nature, he's never grown out of it, no matter how many miles I put on him.

The last time he did that, I honestly heard my back snap while I was "riding him out". I probably should have had a saddle on him but I didn't. Now he's gained so much weight I don't have a saddle that fits him.

PLEASE buy a horse so I can stop looking at all these great finds


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## elle1959

walkinthewalk said:


> PLEASE buy a horse so I can stop looking at all these great finds


I'm trying, I'm trying! Believe me! Maybe this leopard appy person will write me back and I can go see him this weekend. He's been up there since March but with my luck he'll be gone before I can get to him.


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## knightrider

I checked and the AZ horses are about 15 hours by car away from you. That's about as far away as Maryland is from me. The one in Chico is about an hour and a half away. Of course, folks are notorious about not getting back to us after we inquire. So who knows.


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## elle1959

knightrider said:


> I checked and the AZ horses are about 15 hours by car away from you. That's about as far away as Maryland is from me. The one in Chico is about an hour and a half away. Of course, folks are notorious about not getting back to us after we inquire. So who knows.


I can't tell you how many "good on paper" horses I've looked at within easy driving distance. It's not worth taking a chance on a horse that's two hours away or more, because the odds are really, really high that any horse will not be smooth, will be lame, will be crazy in some way, will buck or rear when the seller rides it, will not move out, will not direct rein well, will be confused by my twisted seat, will be unsuitable in some manner that just isn't evident until I get out there and ride the horse myself. 

For horses that have been ridden by people I know and trust, I will make an exception. If someone wants to make a 10% commission and find me a great horse, ride it, make sure it has everything I want-- including a smooth trot and canter-- and is priced so that I can PPE, buy and trailer it home within my budget, maybe that's do-able, as well. But I'm not traveling to every possible horse out there. I just don't have the time or energy, considering the likely outcome.


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## DraftyAiresMum

I'll go test out that paint mare before you make the drive down, if you want. I could also test out that grey foxtrotter mare. Or that buckskin gelding. 

Any of the ones in Phoenix might be a little bit harder, as they're two or more hours away. 

Just let me know. I can take my best friend (who has ridden horses since she was 12) and we can both ride (I'm more of a beginner in the saddle and I'm VERY strict with horses on the ground).


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## elle1959

The buckskin gelding is out of my league, for sure. I'd need to get trailering quotes before I put you into that position for the others. I like the paint mare, but she's on the upper end of the age range I'm looking at and expensive for her age. Still, if she's great, she's probably worth it. 

I'll let you know. Thanks for the offer


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## Knave

What do you mean when you say out of you're league? I thought he was the best of the bunch as far as gentleness goes. (As long as you don't plan on too much team roping lol)


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## Knave

Ok, my phone autocorrects, which I like, but no grammar police please. I know it's not you're.


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## elle1959

Knave said:


> What do you mean when you say out of you're league? I thought he was the best of the bunch as far as gentleness goes. (As long as you don't plan on too much team roping lol)


I can't afford him.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

Dang it! Ninja'd by Elle! LOL

Just let me know! 

The girl with the paint mare seems really nice. She just really wants the mare to have a good home.


----------



## elle1959

It looks like the trailering from Prescott to here would be in the $500 to $600 range. If you want to go look at her and get a feel for how negotiable her price is, that would be okay by me


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## DraftyAiresMum

I'll see what I can set up.


----------



## walkinthewalk

elle1959 said:


> It looks like the trailering from Prescott to here would be in the $500 to $600 range. If you want to go look at her and get a feel for how negotiable her price is, that would be okay by me


*Drafty,* take good videos of the horse being brought out, tacked up, being ridden.

"Back In the Old Days" , lolol, I did that for a lady in New York. The horse was 20 minutes from me. When I say "old days", I mean camcorder, put the video on a beta tape (I think beta --- those big clunky things) and Fed-X it to the woman, lol lol

She did buy the horse.

Good videos, in good light, off your Smartphone will tell a lot more than stills will


----------



## Knave

That makes sense. I'm sorry; gotta hate budgets.  I think you'll come up with something great and in your price range because you are not being hasty. When I bought my colt I looked at a lot of horses! I didn't like them all for this reason or that. Eventually I found him and he was perfect. He wasn't what I thought wanted, but I knew I liked him. We are getting on great and I am so happy I shopped around. Good luck!


----------



## Change

PHP:







elle1959 said:


> It looks like the trailering from Prescott to here would be in the $500 to $600 range. If you want to go look at her and get a feel for how negotiable her price is, that would be okay by me


It may not be that much if my sister lands a gig in CA and has to haul some of hers out that way, anyway. Keep in touch. She also has a friend who lives/works in H'wood (the animal trainer). He family is in the Phoenix area, so if she comes to visit, we could probably arrange transport. Either way, it would be for a lot less than $500.


----------



## Avna

I will keep browsing the gentle bombproof horses for sale in california facebook group if you'd like. That's where I found the leopard Appy.


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## EponaLynn

This sounds exciting, that mare looks nice!

BTW, I can't "like" any posts since this new site began :neutral:.


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## elle1959

EponaLynn said:


> This sounds exciting, that mare looks nice!
> 
> BTW, I can't "like" any posts since this new site began :neutral:.


Go to the very bottom of the page on the left-hand side, and select horse forum classic. That will give you the old look and your like ability back.


----------



## elle1959

Avna said:


> I will keep browsing the gentle bombproof horses for sale in california facebook group if you'd like. That's where I found the leopard Appy.


Thanks. We're not really supposed to post FB links here so you can send any promising ones to me via PM. I haven't heard back on the leopard appy yet. Many times I don't hear at all.


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## EponaLynn

elle1959 said:


> Go to the very bottom of the page on the left-hand side, and select horse forum classic. That will give you the old look and your like ability back.


Wow that was weird but it worked!!! 

Thanks Elle!


----------



## 4horses

Elle- I'm sorry you haven't found a horse yet, but I am very happy you didn't like Angel. I think she might work out just fine for my lesson program. I worked her in the arena today and she was great. 

I've noticed she doesn't respond well to leg cues, which makes sense. Whoever trained her was probably so tall they couldn't get their legs on her to cue her. But she works off of voice commands really well. Click to trot, say "canter" to canter. She does tend to break from the canter into a pace, but that is fixable with time. She doesn't care if you bounce on her, or if you have floppy legs and squeeze at the wrong moment. In fact, she likes to go slow, which is excellent for a beginner horse. She stops well off of a light rein. 

She clearly hasn't been worked in an arena very much. I could just see her going huh??? when I asked her to make a circle. 

Ideally, I would like to yell whoa while I stand in the center of the arena and have her stop instantly. But I think we will definitely get there with some training. I haven't tried an emergency dismount yet, but will try that next and see if I can teach her to stop the moment she feels me come off balance. 

I have not had any trouble with her being at my house at all. She doesn't fight with the other horses over the fence, doesn't get aggressive at mealtime, and only gets a tiny bit nervous if separated. 

Plus my tack actually fits her and I won't need to go saddle shopping! So nice to have an average shaped horse and not one with huge withers! 

I am rather happy with her. It is definitely going to be interesting working with her gaits. I'm going to be spending some time on youtube looking for tips on training the gaited horse. I know she can walk, trot, canter and pace. I think she can probably do a running walk too.


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## elle1959

I'm so glad she's working out for you! You have the skills to give her exactly what she needs and I'm sure she will be brilliant in your program. Things do happen for a reason; even it I didn't find my dream horse, Angel still found a perfect home


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## Avna

elle1959 said:


> Thanks. We're not really supposed to post FB links here so you can send any promising ones to me via PM. I haven't heard back on the leopard appy yet. Many times I don't hear at all.


I will pm you then.


----------



## stevenson

Avna, are you looking at the appy on the coast for 4 -5 thous ? thats a pretty horse ! I have had a lot cancel. ;( One lady is keeping her horse, another one the guy just flaked kept cancelling, one the person who had the horse from age 2 -13 saw the ad, so he got the horse. there seem to be a lot close to San Diego area, But I hate those freeways. I have also seen a lot by Sacramento.
good luck . Hope you find one soon.


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## Whinnie

I have wanted to "like" several replies, but this updated forum is not allowing my "likes". So I like everything!


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## Oreos Girl

Likes are on the far right at the end of the post, not necessarily near the quote buttons, but at the end of the text.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Oreos Girl said:


> Likes are on the far right at the end of the post, not necessarily near the quote buttons, but at the end of the text.


In the new forum view, the "like" button doesn't work/is broken. It only works in the "Classic" view. Forum admin is working on fixing it.


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## Avna

stevenson said:


> Avna, are you looking at the appy on the coast for 4 -5 thous ? thats a pretty horse ! I have had a lot cancel. ;( One lady is keeping her horse, another one the guy just flaked kept cancelling, one the person who had the horse from age 2 -13 saw the ad, so he got the horse. there seem to be a lot close to San Diego area, But I hate those freeways. I have also seen a lot by Sacramento.
> good luck . Hope you find one soon.


I'm kind of focusing on ranch horses in the mid-Central Valley. I'm guessing, from what Elle has said over time, that one of the foundational requirements is a calm steady horse on the trail, with a great deal of experience. Out here you will find that in a using horse and there are a lot of them out here. Ranch horses may not know much about collection but they are taught to side pass and have leg aids. They know how to stand and rest when there's nothing to do and they do not get excited over nothing or they wouldn't be any good to anybody.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

A word of caution on automatically assuming that a ranch horse will be a calm horse appropriate for us older people to ride out on trails.

My two spookiest horses were ranch horses. One of them was trained and worked on the largest contiguous cattle ranch in the United States. The other was a working horse on a large local ranch until his late teens.

Here is what I have learned through experience: A lot of career Cowboys tend to be very good riders, from the standpoint of being able to stick their seats. A lot of them are relatively young and like a little “spice” in their horses. 

They sometimes won't even notice little things like a spook, not standing still either during or after mounting, attempts at bolting, occasional bucking much less "correct" them…….they have the youth and riding ability to ride those things out, then just go about their business, while a less experienced or older rider might eat dirt. Amongst many, riding a difficult horse can be a badge of honor.

This is not to say that there are not good, level headed, well ridden ranch horses out there, only that as much caution should be used when looking at a working ranch horse as any other horse!


----------



## elle1959

I'm going to go look at the leopard Appy tomorrow afternoon. I have a good feeling about him. He's a rescue, was with a hoarder who took basic care but didn't really work with them. The rescue worked with him, then gave him to the current owner to finish and place. His videos look good; he seems sane and sound and she's been using him for lessons, so he's probably pretty good for that. She said she's had him out on trails and he is pretty quiet, when he spooks he stands in place and doesn't bold, just like Gracie. Plus, he's in my price range and actually a little bit below, so if he doesn't work out I could still afford to put some more training on him if needed and sell him. I have my fingers crossed.

She said most people want him for gymkhana but she just wants him to have a buddy who will work with him like I want to and take him out on trails, so that's perfect if it works out.


----------



## sarahfromsc

One other thing about ranch bred/raised/worked ranch horse is SOME require a job. If a person is a recreational rider or a weekend warrior type, SOME ranch horses get bored and can act up.

Just my experience with a few.

Other than that they can go all day!


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## EponaLynn

I hope the appy is perfect for you ~ he sure sounds it right down to the smooth gaits. :gallop:

I love his name too!


----------



## knightrider

I hope this is THE ONE. I am excited for you!


----------



## Captain Evil

elle1959 said:


> I can't tell you how many "good on paper" horses I've looked at within easy driving distance. It's not worth taking a chance on a horse that's two hours away or more, because the odds are really, really high that any horse will not be smooth, will be lame, will be crazy in some way, will buck or rear when the seller rides it, will not move out, will not direct rein well, will be confused by my twisted seat, will be unsuitable in some manner that just isn't evident until I get out there and ride the horse myself.


I feel your pain. I used to go horse shopping with people at my boarding barn, because I was really good at getting horses to misbehave. Some of the time it was absolutely heartbreaking, and if I could have, I would have taken so many of them home. There was one, a OTTB named Boston Papa, who tried so hard to please, but fell to his knees when his front foot was picked up. "I caught him with my thumbnail" said the seller. I had to drag my friend to the car, sobbing, as the seller yelled after us, "It don't matter to me; he's worth $800.00 with his head off!" That was thirty years ago, but I'll never forget him.

Horse shopping is hard.


----------



## elle1959

Captain Evil said:


> Horse shopping is hard.


Yes. Yes, it is!


----------



## knightrider

What's the verdict on the appaloosa gelding?


----------



## EponaLynn

knightrider said:


> What's the verdict on the appaloosa gelding?


Iv'e been wondering too :icon_rolleyes:


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## ShirtHotTeez

Maybe she bought him and is riding back to your place to show you Knightrider  :icon_rolleyes:


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## elle1959

knightrider said:


> What's the verdict on the appaloosa gelding?


The appaloosa gelding has a new home... with me! 

He's not as finished as I would like, but he has a good foundation, and I got him pretty cheap, with free trailering back to my place, which means I can afford to have someone work with him for a couple of months. Most importantly, he has a nice, sane vibe. He's calm and reasonable. His ground manners are good. He stands to be mounted, stands to be dismounted, and leads well. He's a middle-of-the-road kind of guy. Has go, but not too much. Has whoa, but not too much. 

I kind of like that he's a bit of a blank slate. We can grow together. 

A bit of background on him. He's a rescue. He was living in a pasture with a bunch of other horses. He hadn't had his teeth floated in a while and so he started losing weight since he wasn't able to eat well. The gal that had him has been working with him on his training and getting good nutrition into him. He still needs some groceries, but he's coming along. She's been using him in her lesson program for the little kids. 

Did I mention I have a soft spot for rescues? Probably not, but four of my five dogs are rescues of one sort or another. 

So, basically, I didn't get what I was looking for exactly, but I got a horse that I think will grow into what I was looking for in very short order, and one that I can work with myself so that we can both grow together. I think it's going to work.


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## horseluvr2524

YAAAAAAAAAY!!!!!!

:happydance: :happydance: :happydance:

I am a HUGE fan of people growing with horses together. In most cases its not a great idea, in many cases its a long hard road, in your case I think its fantastic and absolutely going to work. The mind and temperament of the horse is the most important thing, as I always say!


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## elle1959

Did I mention he's got personality?


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## horseluvr2524

Gahhh what a cutie! Squeee!


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## elle1959

He worked very hard to get that tongue out there. I'm buying a hackamore next week


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## elle1959

Here's another from yesterday. She had just given him a bath.


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## horseluvr2524

I was wondering if that was some odd picture thing, didn't realize he got his tongue over the bit! lol!

Hackamores are great. My mare does really well in them. I go with either an english hackamore or a zilco flower hackamore.
English has more leverage than the zilco. Zilco has many different leverage options but I have found it not to ever be as strong as the english hackamore, which isn't really strong anyway. IMO, its more like a step up above a side pull, not much leverage at all, but it works for me because I wanted to stay off her face.


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## horseluvr2524

He's beautiful! A bit long backed, but I think with enough work he should muscle up really well. My mare's long backed too (and smooth), but at least he doesn't have shark withers like her!

Lots of forward active trotting and hill work is great for building muscle :grin:


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## elle1959

He trots pretty smoothly. He's not glass smooth, but good enough. I imagine he'll get better with work, too. I can't wait to get started with him!

Editing to add: This is all Avna's fault, by the way. Thanks, Avna!


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## horseluvr2524

I can't wait to see more pictures, he's gorgeous!

He looks kind of friesian to me for some reason. Something about his hind legs and hindquarters and general build. Long and lanky.


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## elle1959

Yeah, he's got a bit of that drafty build going on. Could be a cross. He's also got a full mane and tail, unusual for an appy. Seller said she cut his mane because it was tangled and matted but that it was quite long when he came to her.


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## Golden Horse

Good luck with him, got to love spots!


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## tinyliny

if he doesn't already have a name you like, I see him as "Homer".


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## Bondre

Congrats Elle! And Avna! He took some finding though. Now you can take a well-earned break from horse-shopping - and put his pic in your avatar instead of that question mark lol. 

He's going to be very striking when he gets back up to weight. Wishing you all the best for your journey of discovery together - and looking forward to reading all about it here.


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## tinyliny

Elle,
now that you have this huge following, you must start a new thread, with your new horse's name, and document your days with him. a member's journal.


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## elle1959

tinyliny said:


> Elle,
> now that you have this huge following, you must start a new thread, with your new horse's name, and document your days with him. a member's journal.


I think I will have to do that. I do have a journal thread but it's kind of outdated. Maybe a new one, just for The Spotted One. 

He doesn't yet have a name I like. Seller had been calling him Echo. I'm leaning toward Spot or Sparky. Spot for obvious reasons, Sparky because he reminds me of a dalmatian.


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## EponaLynn

Yippee, I'm so excited for you! He looks like a real sweetie! Was he very far away from where you live?

Love those spots!


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## elle1959

EponaLynn said:


> Yippee, I'm so excited for you! He looks like a real sweetie! Was he very far away from where you live?
> 
> Love those spots!


Four hour round trip. Not too horrible, but I'm glad she's trailering him for free!


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## Bondre

Re: names. He looks like Joker to me.


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## Change

elle1959 said:


> Here's another from yesterday. She had just given him a bath.


My first thought was that he was wearing spotted pajamas (I have a similar pair! LOL) He definitely looks to have some draft in him - I'd bet on Percheron. For some reason he looks like a "Percy" to me. Give him a couple days - he'll tell you his name. Tango did.


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## elle1959

Another friend said that same thing about him wearing pajamas! 

As for being part draft, fortunately, he's not that tall, at 15.1h. I can mount him from the ground, just barely.


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## ShirtHotTeez

I love him. I like the name Echo too FWIW  Please don't call him homer!

Congratulations.


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## Emeraldsprings

What about Doppler, as in the Doppler effect? 

I'm so excited for you! Congratulations! He has nice bone


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## knightrider

I'm so happy for you! He's darling! We want updates every day or two. Can't wait for him to get home. This is great!


----------



## walkinthewalk

elle1959 said:


> He trots pretty smoothly. He's not glass smooth, but good enough. I imagine he'll get better with work, too. I can't wait to get started with him!
> 
> Editing to add: This is all Avna's fault, by the way. Thanks, Avna!


1. Many do not know the Appaloosa has a gaiting gene. Their gait is called "The Indian Shuffle", if you want to Google and research it.

2. He looks like he could be from Chief Joseph Nez Perce stock ---- a blood line some Appy breeders have worked hard to preserve.

You can Google that and get a bunch of credible hits.

This is a picture of Chief Joseph on his Leopard Appaloosa stallion.


https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/97/e6/91/97e69134141fdd03a496a5742c240ff1.jpg


If you study pictures of this blood line, I think you will see a lot of commonality with the new guy.

And don't let him get fat - I don't think he needs to gain much, he needs muscled up more than anything.

If he truly is a Descendant of Chief Joseph's stallion, boy did you fall into a find:loveshower:


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## walkinthewalk

*Elle, * it is too late to back and edit my comment BUT,

The New Guy has his tongue OVER the bit. Might want to keep a close eye on him for that trick. Once a horse learns how to flip the bit under their tongue, it can be difficult to break that habit.

Or put him in a bit less as you have already mentioned.


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## Acadianartist

Congratulations!!! He's just adorable! 

So happy for you. Have fun with him and love him to death! 

When you have a bit of free time, how about you start a thread of finding the right horse? Or dos and don'ts of horse shopping? So many of us are in the same position. And very often, we have a pretty specific list of traits we are looking for which might prevent us from buying a horse that could actually be the right horse for us. Maybe it's important to distinguish between finding the "perfect" horse (which mostly exists in books and girls' tween novels) and finding the "right" horse. 

All the best to you and your sweet appy!


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## SwissMiss

Congratulations!!! What a cutie!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Oh he looks like a good one! Kind eye and all of that, I think he will try hard for you. You done good! 

How about P.J. short for pajama?


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## Change

@Elle - I really hope you aren't reading this until after dark - which would mean you spent the entire day down at the barn with your new guy.


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## elle1959

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> How about P.J. short for pajama?


Oh, I like that one


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## elle1959

Change said:


> @Elle - I really hope you aren't reading this until after dark - which would mean you spent the entire day down at the barn with your new guy.


Oh, I wish! He's still two hours north, awaiting his vet check. She's gathering up his vaccination records and getting his feet done, as well, before bringing him down. He'll probably be here sometime next week.


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## Change

Ah. My misread. I thought he'd already arrived. 

SOOO excited for you!!! 

As for "PJ," I like. And if he's misbehavin' it gives you lots of options for full names. Picasso Joe! Pig-headed Jerk. Peanut-brained Jug-head. LOL. You could really get creative in your scolds...


----------



## elle1959

Thanks, everyone, for the kind comments. Walk, I don't know much about appaloosa bloodlines but have been reading up on their history. This guy sure seems very calm and sane, and, like a fine, old house, he's got great bones. He does need more groceries; hard to see in the pics but you can still feel ribs very easily and his hips are still quite pointy. I don't think he needs much, though. Maybe another 50 lbs, along with some additional muscling. Need to figure out feed for him as three flakes of hay aren't going to cut it right now. 

I've ridden exactly two appaloosas in my life, and one thing I noticed about both of them is that they both were very attached to their people. Both of them were reluctant to move away from their owners and wanted to move toward them in the arena/pen where they were being ridden by me, a stranger. This makes me feel good about the prospect of the two of us learning and working together as a team. Once he figures out that he's stuck with me now, hopefully we'll have that same sort of attachment going on. 

I also noted that both horses owners had this very strange (to me) manner of doing groundwork where they kind of hop and crouch in front of the horse to get it to stop moving at the lunge. 

Uh, I won't be doing that. The method I've been taught is more like Clinton Anderson's point and push method, where direction changes are used to gain/assert control of the feet and are accomplished differently, with a gentle tug to the lead line and a more subtle shift in body language to the opposite direction, accompanied by pointing and "pushing" the hindquarters with the end of the rope. He'll probably learn this quickly, as it's fairly simple. 

As for the tongue over the bit, it's a known problem with him that the seller warned me about, and when he did it, my husband snapped that pic. I'm going to have his wolf teeth pulled and put him in a hackamore for a little while while I research the best way to deal with this. I've read that a wide curb can be more difficult for them to get their tongue around, but this bit he's been in is also too small. I ordered a 6" Korsteel oval link, which seems very gentle, and will probably try that first, then switch to a wide curb if that doesn't fix it. Getting the wolf teeth out will give me more leeway for working with bit placement to see if I can find a way to make him comfortable enough that he stops doing it on his own. We'll see.


----------



## elle1959

^^^ sorry meant to say a wide PORT bit. Need more coffee.


----------



## Skyseternalangel

So pending PPE?


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## elle1959

Yes, but he's young and I doubt there will be any issues.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

Good thing I hadn't been able to set up a time to go see that mare. :lol:

As for the bit...

Are you sure a 6" isn't going to be WAY too big? My 17hh draft cross uses a 6" bit.


----------



## elle1959

The 5" was way too small for him. I debated whether to go with 5.5 but an inch isn't really that much space and I didn't want to end up with the same problem, so we'll see.


----------



## Avna

Yay! I had a good feeling about this dude. So happy for you! I am sure with good food and some training he will make a great horse. 

Domino is a good name for a spotted creature. Or Pongo!

If you want to get fancy you could call him Maculation (means spotted). Max, obviously, for short. Mancha means spotted in Galician . . .

Clearly, having too much fun with google translate.


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## Emeraldsprings

I was thinking 5.5 inch would be his size. 5 inch is pony sized whereas our 17.1 hunter types use 5.5. There are 5&3/4 bits too. I also think 6 inch might be too big, is there any way you could change the order? Just don't want you to end up out of pocket


----------



## evilamc

Maybe you could ask vet to even measure his mouth during ppe? Or dentist when they're out. They could also tell you more about his mouth/tongue shape 

I agree 6" sounds big  my 14.3 and 15h walkers go in 5" and my 15.2h qh I had also used 5". Every horse is different, best to measure rather then guess and have wrong size still.


----------



## elle1959

I just wrote to them to see if I can switch to the 5.5", so we'll see what happens. The Korsteels are not expensive bits. Not that I have money to toss away, but at least I am not experimenting with something in the $100 price range. Once I figure out what works for him in terms of size and style, I'll splurge on luxury versions and sell the used ones.


----------



## walkinthewalk

elle1959 said:


> Once I figure out what works for him in terms of size and style, I'll splurge on luxury versions and sell the used ones.


No you won't --- sell the unwanted ones, that is. You will however splurge on newer ones, lollollollol

That is how tack boxes fill up ---- with all those unwanted bits that nobody will give you any money for, lollol

I have more bits and reins thrown into two tack boxes than I care to count.

In the end I have always gone back to my two old time/long time friends:

1. Low port curb bit with varying length swivel shanks.
2. Mechanical Hackamore.


----------



## elle1959

Back to names. If I name him PJ we can have a lot of fun making up ridiculously ostentatious "show" names for him. "Percival Justinian of Butte," for example (I bought him in Butte County.)


----------



## knightrider

From the picture, it looks like he has a white mask on. I like Lone Ranger and you can call him Ranger. Can't wait for you to get him!


----------



## jaydee

Congratulations and good luck
He reminds me of an Appy called Zak that was boarded at the place I worked at in the UK


----------



## Whinnie

He is beautiful! Congratulations! (and he does look like he is wearing pajamas: P.J.)


----------



## Whinnie

elle1959 said:


> Oh, I wish! He's still two hours north, awaiting his vet check. She's gathering up his vaccination records and getting his feet done, as well, before bringing him down. He'll probably be here sometime next week.


Waiting is the worst. I am glad it is early in the riding season, you will have so much fun!


----------



## horseluvr2524

I second Pongo, Percy, and Joker! He is sooo cute! I have a long buried love of leopard appys, and you just revived it XD


----------



## evilamc

Ha barn I grew up riding at had an Appy named Joker!

My husband always wanted a leopard appy, instead he ended up with a black twh haha! He doesn't ride though so I guess it doesn't matter too much 

He is super cute hope he passes ppe with flying colors!


----------



## egrogan

I'm late to this thread update, but just saw the first picture and have to say a huge congrats. He's a real looker, and sounds like he has just the personality you wanted. Can't wait to follow along and eager to see if he'll have his own thread started soon.


----------



## boots

I like him.  I also like the name PJ for him.

Here's to many happy years together!


----------



## LoriF

boots said:


> I like him.  I also like the name PJ for him.
> 
> Here's to many happy years together!


PJ would be a great name for him, he does look like he's wearing pajamas. He's too cool.


----------



## Captain Evil

We never had dolls when we were kids, but we had tons of Breyer horse statues. My sister had one painted to look like a leopard appaloosa which she named "Pajama Jailbird.":icon_rolleyes:

For what it is worth, I really like PJ with all of the creative variants people have come up with, and I like Doppler. But mostly I really really like this horse! Fingers crossed for a good PPE.


----------



## elle1959

I'm leaning hard toward PJ now for him. Once I know he's past the PPE and on his way here, I'll start a journal thread so that we can share how we're getting on with everyone.


----------



## elle1959

PPE is scheduled for early next week, so I'll likely have him by Wednesday or Thursday next week.


----------



## EponaLynn

elle1959 said:


> PPE is scheduled for early next week, so I'll likely have him by Wednesday or Thursday next week.


With your own vet? Isn't it driving you crazy having to wait that long?

Hope all goes well :gallop:


----------



## elle1959

It is driving me crazy, but I waited this long, so I guess I can wait another week


----------



## Change

We need SO many more pictures of the pajama horse!


----------



## elle1959

I don't have any of my own yet, but I can borrow from his seller's Facebook page 

I like how he even has a spot in the middle of his tail.


----------



## ShirtHotTeez

He is a honey 

domino? Camo?


----------



## Horsnaround64

The one spot on his rump looks like a cross. Maybe savior should be his name I do like pj though
Been following your story all along. So happy you may have found the perfect one Congrats


----------



## Change

I love the striped mane, too! I don't care what you name him, he's going to be stuck with PJ or pajama horse here! LOL.


----------



## Bondre

So how did the PPE go on PJ?


----------



## elle1959

PPE is scheduled for Monday next week. There aren't many vets in that area. I'll let you all know as soon as I'm sure he's officially going to be mine!


----------



## Bondre

Oops, I thought it was Monday of this week, and that he'd be on the way to yours by now.


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## elle1959

No such luch  But I guess if I've waited this long, I can wait a few more days.


----------



## stevenson

i saw those ads. Good luck ! hope the horse is sound . i would ask when its teeth wer last done, looked to thin to me in some of the photos.


----------



## elle1959

His teeth have been done recently. He's a rescue, and his teeth were neglected at his prior home, that is why he was thin. He has gained since being rescued, but still needs to put more on. 

I understand that he still needs groceries and am already planning to supplement his feed until he gets to a proper condition.


----------



## Change

He's going to be stunning when he fills in those jammies of his!


----------



## stevenson

I kept going back to his ad to look at him..lol .. if he had been closer to me , I would have gone.


----------



## elle1959

Thanks everyone. I'm really looking forward to bringing him home and helping him get healthy and fit


----------



## EponaLynn

Good luck tomorrow!


----------



## elle1959

Before everyone asks, I got a text from the seller today and we have to reschedule the vet check because her dog needs to go to the vet tomorrow. So I'll keep you posted, but there aren't many vets in that area so it might be a few days.


----------



## Oreos Girl

NOOOOOO, I was just thinking, it was vet day. I am bummed and it isn't me. Sorry Elle.


----------



## phantomhorse13

Blast. But reasonable excuse.

Patience is a virtue, right?


----------



## Whinnie

Oh, no! By the way, his spots look like they have haloes around them, like Saturn (or more like the rings around the moon if you have ever seen that phenomenon)


----------



## EponaLynn

Oreos Girl said:


> NOOOOOO, I was just thinking, it was vet day. I am bummed and it isn't me. Sorry Elle.


Me too, can't wait myself, lol!


----------



## Captain Evil

Whinnie said:


> Oh, no! By the way, his spots look like they have haloes around them, like Saturn (or more like the rings around the moon if you have ever seen that phenomenon)


 We used to call rings around the moon a "Moondog." I don't know if that is a real term or not though.


----------



## elle1959

Vet check on Friday. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Change

Coooooome oooooooon, FRIDAY! 

Pajama horse needs to come home!


----------



## elle1959

I know. This week is killing me though. I have crazy commitments all day Thursday, especially. Just as well that he isn't coming until later.


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## Change

My week has been flying past - mostly because there is so much work I need to do and not enough me to do it all! I'm averaging 10 hour days and usually it's when I look up from what I'm doing that I realize it's past time to go home! 

This Friday is supposed to be my off Friday... and there's a Very Good Chance I'll be stuck in another 6 hour meeting like I was today and will be tomorrow. Not Happy. But ... by the time I get to breathe a deep breath and look around, there should be a new thread saying "I Have A Pajama Horse" started by @elle1959 !


----------



## bsms

With something like this:










elle1959 will disappear on her horse! :wink:


----------



## Change

^^^ love it! @elle1959 : If you get PJ, you HAVE to buy that coat!


----------



## Change

You might have to adopt a Dalmation, too!


----------



## elle1959

I love that! PJ's vet check is at 11:00 on Friday, so I should know something by the afternoon. I have band practice Friday night, so if the news comes in late I might not get back on here until the morning.


----------



## elle1959

Whinnie said:


> Oh, no! By the way, his spots look like they have haloes around them, like Saturn (or more like the rings around the moon if you have ever seen that phenomenon)


This is why his current owner called him Echo. She thought those rings looked like an echo of the spot


----------



## stevenson

peacock spots. lol


----------



## Change

Today's the day!


----------



## Folly

**Like**!!!


----------



## Golden Horse

Fingers crossed


----------



## Acadianartist

Been following this... found a paint I like, doing a two-hour trail ride with him Monday, then hopefully a PPE mid to late week (whenever I can get a vet out, which is hard these days). So I am totally crossing my fingers for you elle! I know how suspenseful this is.


----------



## elle1959

OK. The seller texted me to let me know that the vet does not do PPEs onsite and there was a misunderstanding and it will take another two to three weeks to reschedule. She then insisted that I call her immediately even though I told her I was in a business meeting. On the phone she said she was still there and that the vet could do a quick WTC lookover. I told her no, and that I was no longer interested. She was very upset with me. I told her that I was paying stall rent on an empty stall and that another 2-3 weeks was going to effectively add another $350 to his price. She said she is "paying for his board too" even though she lives on a horse property. I told her that she is the seller and that's not my problem.

Part of this is my fault because I knew I should have set up the PPE on my own, but because of the distance I let her do it, and apparently she didn't have enough knowledge to even know what or how to do that. So what else could be wrong? He could be some other age, who knows what could be wrong, but this was a red flag that I couldn't be comfortable with. 

So, I happened to be meeting at the time with a friend who has a horse rescue and also has a business she wants me to do some work for. One of her rescue horses is coming up for rehoming, so she may end up with me, for free. Honestly, right now I'm discouraged enough that I am again feeling like I need to just give up my stall and stop shopping. I have so many other things to do and worry about. I'm totally disappointed.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

That grey foxtrotter mare is still for sale down here and her price dropped to $2200. ;-) http://prescott.craigslist.org/grd/5530515727.html


----------



## elle1959

I appreciate that, but I really need to take a break from this. I am really, really tired of looking, and my business is getting quite busy, so there's that to focus on. Maybe I'll be ready in another six months or a year but it just seems like this isn't the right time.


----------



## Avna

Can you just have him shipped down for a month's tryout and do a PPE while he is with you?


----------



## weeedlady

DraftyAiresMum said:


> That grey foxtrotter mare is still for sale down here and her price dropped to $2200. ;-) Beautiful Registered Foxtrotter Mare



I love the looks of that mare. Wish I was in AZ!
M

*Elle* I am sorry the spotted horse isn't working out. I can understand your frustration. and you know your heart. Maybe you are right-it's just not the time. 
Perhaps it's like a husband-stop looking and he will show up.


----------



## Acadianartist

I'm so sorry elle. I know how frustrating the whole thing can be - I REALLY DO.

I think that if your gut told you this horse wasn't right, you should go with it. It's unfair for the seller to pressure you and I would be very suspicious of someone trying to convince you NOT to do a full PPE. 

Take a break. Do something else. Who knows, in a little bit, maybe the perfect horse will fall into your lap. 

I do want to thank you for sharing your journey with us. You're the reason I put up an ISO ad. I was very wary of doing that because I figured people would take advantage of me. But someone contacted me because of this ad and I may have found a terrific horse because of it (though like you, I know better than to get too excited just yet).


----------



## LoriF

I am so sorry, this just sucks. Keeping a stall does kind of put the pressure on. Maybe you can give it up and just leisurely look until you find something.


----------



## elle1959

Yeah, I'm just burned out on looking. I'm going to keep up with my lessons, put the money in the bank and when i start turning a real profit on my business then I'll think about buying a horse again.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

Acadianartist said:


> I think that if your gut told you this horse wasn't right, you should go with it. It's unfair for the seller to pressure you and I would be very suspicious of someone trying to convince you NOT to do a full PPE.


Especially trying to guilt you into taking the horse by saying that they're paying board on the horse too, so you should just take it. Like you said, that's not your problem. Heck, that's part of the reason I have never sold my gelding: even if I did put him up for sale, I'd have to keep paying board on him until he sold, so what's the difference? At least with me, I know exactly what kind of care he's getting. :icon_rolleyes:


----------



## Captain Evil

I can't believe it! The vet doesn'ty do PPE on site/. Where, then, is it done? You have to trailer a prospect to her clinic? I bet the seller never really set it up, just figured she could ask the vet to look at him when the he/she was out for something else. I am so disappointed for you, and for the horse. He would have had a great home.


----------



## Peachy

my thoroughbred has to have back shoes on, she is completely sound she's had all clear but gets foot sore without them, if she's not in work they can come off and she's fine but soon as she hits the roads for road work, she's hopping around for days, some horses walk with there heel down hence why they get sore. 
Hope this helps and I hope you get a horse soon!


----------



## elle1959

Captain Evil said:


> I can't believe it! The vet doesn'ty do PPE on site/. Where, then, is it done? You have to trailer a prospect to her clinic? I bet the seller never really set it up, just figured she could ask the vet to look at him when the he/she was out for something else. I am so disappointed for you, and for the horse. He would have had a great home.


She says she took the horse to the vet's office and was told that they had her down for a regular visit, not a pre-purchase exam, and that a proper PPE would have to be done in an arena in the area. She told me it would be another 2-3 weeks before that could happen. So if that is true she completely mucked up the whole thing which ends up costing me $350.00 for another month paying for an empty stall.


----------



## Rain Shadow

Why not do a trial then? 

Honestly mistakes happen. I try not to think the worst of people. The vet office I'm currently using takes 5 weeks to get an appointment. They only have the one lone vet. 

If you do a trial, that stall is being used. This will also allow you to use your vet. 

I dunno maybe its just me but I think its a bit of an overreaction.


----------



## elle1959

Rain Shadow said:


> Why not do a trial then?
> 
> Honestly mistakes happen. I try not to think the worst of people. The vet office I'm currently using takes 5 weeks to get an appointment. They only have the one lone vet.
> 
> If you do a trial, that stall is being used. This will also allow you to use your vet.
> 
> I dunno maybe its just me but I think its a bit of an overreaction.


Maybe it is, but when my gut says something is off, and when you have received lots of advice about what to be careful of in a horse purchase, and then you have someone push off the vet check not once, but twice, it sets up a level of discomfort that I'm not able to ignore. I have a great deal of anxiety over the possibility of something being wrong that I wasn't told about and beating myself up for not listening to my gut. 

She didn't offer me a trial, and most people here won't do them, for liability reasons. I've learned better than to ask because the answer is almost always no. The ones that will do it also want money for it.


----------



## elle1959

Not to mention that she tried to pressure me into accepting a half-baked exam instead on the spot. No, I wanted a standard PPE and all that it involves and I don't want to wait another month for this horse that was supposed to be vet checked a week ago already.


----------



## Golden Horse

I guess there is always two sides to this, one is no horse and situation is ever perfect, and things can go bad for the most honest of people who just happen not to know the process.

If you like this guy, and obviously you did, what harm is there asking about a trial, will use your stall, let you try him and PPE, the worse she can do is say no, in which case you walk.

I can understand you being burned out on the whole process, but ask yourself is he worth the trouble of asking the question?


----------



## elle1959

Golden Horse said:


> I guess there is always two sides to this, one is no horse and situation is ever perfect, and things can go bad for the most honest of people who just happen not to know the process.
> 
> If you like this guy, and obviously you did, what harm is there asking about a trial, will use your stall, let you try him and PPE, the worse she can do is say no, in which case you walk.
> 
> I can understand you being burned out on the whole process, but ask yourself is he worth the trouble of asking the question?


She got really upset when I told her I needed time to be sure I wasn't making an emotional decision. She wanted me to decide then and there, when I was in the middle of a business meeting, whether or not her half-baked vet check was good enough. When I told her it wasn't and that if this was my choice I didn't want to go through with the sale, she accused me of being rude and she hung up on me. When was I going to ask the question?


----------



## ApolloRider

There is always another horse out there. I would go with my gut too.


----------



## bsms

Sorry it worked out that way. I've never bought a horse with a PPE, but maybe I've been lucky. And given how Bandit was used and how he used his left front leg, he might have some big problems down the road. He might not have passed a PPE!

But if my gut tells me to worry about a deal, I usually do. If you have the option of lessons, then taking a 3-6 month break and just riding and working on your business might be a good thing. Horses should be fun. A few months might result in something coming together. It often does. Good luck!


----------



## elle1959

So, I wrote to her to offer the trial I'm sure she'll say no, but at least I'll be able to say I tried.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

elle1959 said:


> She got really upset when I told her I needed time to be sure I wasn't making an emotional decision. She wanted me to decide then and there, when I was in the middle of a business meeting, whether or not her half-baked vet check was good enough. When I told her it wasn't and that if this was my choice I didn't want to go through with the sale, she accused me of being rude and she hung up on me. When was I going to ask the question?


In this case, I think you did the right thing. A seller who is that persistent and that pushy is either hiding something or has other issues. Not something you want to deal with.


----------



## knightrider

Awwww, I feel so bad for you. What a total bummer. I can understand where you are coming from. I wish things would come together for you. You deserve it.


----------



## Rain Shadow

See I'm wondering if she could possibly be having some financial troubles and needs one less mouth to feed.


----------



## elle1959

So I've been talked into doing a trial with the red dun horse I rode a few months ago. She was awesome on the trail and crazy in the arena. Her name is Cinnamon. Knightrider knows that I liked her a lot. Figure I'm paying for the stall for a month, I might as well give her a shot.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

Rain Shadow said:


> See I'm wondering if she could possibly be having some financial troubles and needs one less mouth to feed.


As unfortunate as that may be for the seller, it's not Elle's problem and shouldn't be used as leverage to try to force her into a sale she's not comfortable with.


----------



## bsms

elle1959 said:


> The only reason I would put her in the arena would be to practice what I'm learning in my lessons. This horse, right now, would scare me in the arena because she's very quick to pick up into a lope. Her lope is smooth, which is fortunate, but she doesn't have a big stop on her yet. She will stop, but it takes a few tries before she realizes you mean it. She's not like that on the trail.
> 
> She's trained to neck rein, doesn't direct rein very well. That's also something she needs to learn. I'm learning to ride and control my horse with two hands, so that's going to be a problem in terms of practicing and developing on what I'm learning. The direct reining seems to scare her or something.


This the one? If so, here is a good video:






I'm lucky. My horses live on a dry lot, and the little arena we have has small patches of grass. So I could practice stopping my horse where a good faith effort at stopping would result in her/him standing next to a small patch. If she/he made a good effort, then I'd give lots of slack, pat the withers - and that was an invitation to drop the head and eat for 30 seconds. Nothing like rewarding a good stop to get a good stop. But slack is also a reward...

Also: Horse Control - The Young Horse


----------



## sarahfromsc

My little gelding was golden today. It was vet day, plus mine was getting a chiro done as well. Two of the four horses getting done owners could not make it at the last minute so I am having to deal with mine, a friend was handling my new guy, and the I was dealing with the two ownerless horses. 

I walk mine up to the vet and drop the lead rope, which is his cue to stand. I told the vet I had to go get the others out of the pasture. I left, the vet checks point points, checks heart lungs and legs, gives the shots, draws blood for the coggins and for the snap test (Lyme), and my little crazy Arab stands ground tied through all that.

The chiro arrives, so she takes my Arab and walks into the barn ground ties him and works on him as I handle the last horse for the vet.

What a horse! Only the crazy Arab can do that.....lolol

Even my little spawn of satan did really well for what manners he had....had being a key word.

Also today I saw the most handsome Morgan for sale in Kentucky for only $1,500. I was hunting for that checkbook. Old time short stout Morgan.......*sighs*

We have had rainy chilly March like weather the last week, so no rides and I am bummed. However the floors are complete now it is just the clean up and moving furniture back to its rightful place.

Back porch was wiped down clean along with the furniture. Patio was cleaned and that furniture hosed down.

Basement still being dry locked and painted. Ugh.


----------



## sarahfromsc

OH crap". I posted on the wrong thread....lololol.

I apologize Elle! It is suppose to be in the over 50 thread.

I am so sorry!


----------



## Golden Horse

sarahfromsc said:


> OH crap". I posted on the wrong thread....lololol.
> 
> I apologize Elle! It is suppose to be in the over 50 thread.
> 
> I am so sorry!



It's an age thing:wink:


----------



## horseluvr2524

@elle1959

I am so sorry to hear about this Elle. That really sucks. Trialing the red dun is a good idea if you really liked her. Horses that have a bit of go are a good thing, as long as they can walk and trot steady without constantly wanting to up the ante. A lot of horses get excited loping/cantering. I ride an OTTB in a D-ring snaffle. The owners were riding him in a tom thumb, IMO WAY more than this horse needs. This horse goes fine in the snaffle, he just requires a give and take action (as if squeezing a sponge-squeeze, release, squeeze, release) to stop at lope or gallop, as he gets very excited. 

With regular work, a horse will settle nicely into a working canter/lope. If she was fantastic on the trails, well that's what you want! Arena work is for refinement anyway. If she will challenge you in the arena and relax on the trail, maybe that's what you need?

I really hope things will be going better for you soon. :smile:


----------



## Change

Well, pooh! Where's the Don't Like button! :-( I'm so sorry that the pajama horse didn't come through for you - I know you were really getting excited about having him come home. And he's just so durned CUTE!

(Memo to self - cancel the Cruella deVille dalmation coat order for the pajama horse home-coming gift!) <- JK


In all seriousness, though - I really did like the red dun and I hope the trial with her works out well for you.


----------



## Emeraldsprings

elle1959 said:


> So, I happened to be meeting at the time with a friend who has a horse rescue and also has a business she wants me to do some work for. One of her rescue horses is coming up for rehoming, so she may end up with me, for free.


I'm sorry to hear he didn't work out for you, but there will always be another horse. Don't give up! Maybe the rescue might suit you?


----------



## Captain Evil

sarahfromsc said:


> Even my little spawn of satan did really well for what manners he had....had being a key word.


"Spawn of Satan". Good name for a racehorse.


----------



## Golden Horse

elle1959 said:


> She got really upset when I told her I needed time to be sure I wasn't making an emotional decision. She wanted me to decide then and there, when I was in the middle of a business meeting, whether or not her half-baked vet check was good enough. When I told her it wasn't and that if this was my choice I didn't want to go through with the sale, she accused me of being rude and she hung up on me. When was I going to ask the question?


Hey I don't know I was just trying to make a helpful suggestion.....sorry it was obviously a stupid one....jeesh


----------



## elle1959

Golden Horse said:


> Hey I don't know I was just trying to make a helpful suggestion.....sorry it was obviously a stupid one....jeesh


It wasn't stupid; you didn't know all the details!


----------



## elle1959

sarahfromsc said:


> OH crap". I posted on the wrong thread....lololol.
> 
> I apologize Elle! It is suppose to be in the over 50 thread.
> 
> I am so sorry!


It's okay!


----------



## elle1959

sarahfromsc said:


> OH crap". I posted on the wrong thread....lololol.
> 
> I apologize Elle! It is suppose to be in the over 50 thread.
> 
> I am so sorry!


It's okay!


----------



## knightrider

So, are you getting Cinnamon on trial? If so, when, so I can start looking forward to something.

Or maybe the rescue on trial? I want to look forward to something!


----------



## Change

^^^ Ditto!

We've been on this search with you since ... forever! Updates are NECESSARY.


----------



## elle1959

knightrider said:


> So, are you getting Cinnamon on trial? If so, when, so I can start looking forward to something.
> 
> 
> 
> Or maybe the rescue on trial? I want to look forward to something!




Trying to figure out if we can get proof of vaccines on her sufficient for my barn. Also need to arrange transport. Will update when I have more to share.


----------



## EponaLynn

I assume you didn't get word back from PJs person?

Do you have a picture of Cinnamon? Or a link to the thread about her?

You can see we're living vicariously through you :wink:


----------



## elle1959

I'm holding off on everything right now since I just got word that my retirement benefits will not start until August. The good news is that I will receive eight months back retirement pay when they do come through. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## elle1959

My instructor tagged me on a post on Craigslist for a horse that she thought sounded perfect for me. Even though I can't afford him right now, and even though he's a grey, I'm having him trailered out to the arena where I take my lessons this morning. He's another one that sounds like everything I need, at least on paper. I suppose if I really, really love him, I'll figure out a way to pay for him-- maybe borrow some money from my husband. Business is picking up, I'm getting slammed with work requests right now, so I'm hopeful that this low period won't last too long.


----------



## knightrider

Oh yay! Something to get excited about and look forward to! I was afraid you were giving up on lessons and everything until August. I hope it all goes well for you.


----------



## elle1959

Meet Charlie Horse. He's going to be coming to visit with me for two weeks, starting on Saturday. 

Charlie is a registered QH, registered as a palomino but it seems to me that he's got the grey gene. That's the only thing I'm worried about with him. 

His current owner has used him on trails extensively; he's got lots of training but hasn't been used in an arena for a while. However, he went fine in the arena for us, just a little rusty so needs a bit of a tuneup. That's easy enough. 

He's mellow and level headed, leads well, just seems to be a real sweetheart with a kind eye, and everything I thought I wanted. 

Spoke with my husband and he will lend me the funds to buy him, if I decide to do it. I can't afford it right now, but business is good so hopefully I can pay him off quickly. 

Not the best pic but here he is.


----------



## Bondre

Too cruel! ! Posting news about your recent find without a visible picture. 

Glad to hear that your first impressions of him are favourable. 

I'd love to see him.... can anyone else the photo?


----------



## bsms

^^ Sure wish I could see the picture...

;>(

Attachment pending approval...which apparently gets routed thru Pakistan, then over to Poland, down to the Vatican, and then to the US Senate, where no vote is currently scheduled...


----------



## elle1959

I can't see it myself. I also had to delete most of the pics I had originally posted here in order to put this one on since I was out of storage space. Bummer, since many of them were in my journal


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## elle1959

. Oops, double post. Sorry!


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## elle1959

I'll get in trouble for this, but since the forum is broken I suppose a rule can be broken occasionally. Here's his picture: 

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?....141406442840.103143.718927840&type=3&theater


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## knightrider

If you open a Photobucket account, put the picture in Photobucket and then copy and paste it onto here, it will work. I'd love to see the picture.


----------



## elle1959

Here he is. I put him on my work server.


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## egrogan

cute, cute, cute!

I think I missed your aversion to a grey?


----------



## elle1959

egrogan said:


> cute, cute, cute!
> 
> I think I missed your aversion to a grey?


It's not an aversion, it's just that they are very prone to melanoma, which can be expensive to treat.


----------



## egrogan

Ah, got it. That's true about the greys, sadly. I think you and I are probably similar people in real life, always with one eye on minimizing risk


----------



## elle1959

egrogan said:


> Ah, got it. That's true about the greys, sadly. I think you and I are probably similar people in real life, always with one eye on minimizing risk


Yeah, and part of it too is that I have a friend at the barn who has had a terrible time with her grey horse. This horse is one of the best she's ever owned and she loves her dearly, but she's told me several times that if she had it to do over again she would never buy another grey. 

The surgeries this horse has had to endure are just heartbreaking when you hear her tell it. So she is always strongly warning me whenever I am looking at a grey. Today I walked into the barn to let her know I would be bringing one in and she was on the phone; the barn manager asked if I was bringing a horse in and I said, "yes, but C-- isn't going to like it because he's grey." So then I heard all about the horrible ordeal she's had with her mare again. It's just been very difficult for her.


----------



## Werecat

He's gorgeous. He almost looks cremello. 

I hope this guy works out for you, he has a very kind face. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## EponaLynn

egrogan said:


> Ah, got it. That's true about the greys, sadly. I think you and I are probably similar people in real life, always with one eye on minimizing risk


Plus Elle lives in CA, where there is more sun!

Elle, he looks adorable! Was your ride good? Not every grey will have the same problems either.


----------



## elle1959

Werecat said:


> He's gorgeous. He almost looks cremello.
> 
> I hope this guy works out for you, he has a very kind face.


He's registered as a palomino. I think he's got a very kind face, too. He's got a very sweet nature.


----------



## elle1959

EponaLynn said:


> Plus Elle lives in CA, where there is more sun!
> 
> Elle, he looks adorable! Was your ride good? Not every grey will have the same problems either.


Yes, the ride was good. I did walk-trot on him, did not canter but my instructor did. He's not super-smooth at the trot, but he's good enough. He does know his leg cues and will work in the arena but wants to go where he wants for a bit until he figures out that we're asking him to do things for a reason and aren't going to give in. But that was minor and once he got back into stride he seemed very willing. I think he just needs a bit of regular arena work to get back on track there. And he will get that with me.


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## Acadianartist

He's adorable elle! I hope it works out for you.

I have a grey and put sunscreen on his nose every sunny morning  No melanoma yet and he's 16. I don't think all greys necessarily get it. Just because this person had a bad experience doesn't mean you should pass up this horse. He seems very sweet! Can you cover him with a light sheet if you're really worried about the sun? 

P.S. the sunscreen I use on Harley is this one My Pony Sun Block? Natural Sun block For All Types of Pets and Animals. I love it. Easy to put on (it's powder, not cream, but surprisingly, really stays on! I have to really scrub my hands afterwards to get it to come off) and seems to work well. Also, it lasts forever. I just put it on his pink nose.


----------



## phantomhorse13

We have 4 greys.

One of the 17 year olds (gelding) doesn't have any melonomas. The other 17 year old (gelding) has 2 small BB-sized lumps, one on his neck, one on his rump. The 16 year old (mare) has several under the base of her tail. They first appeared when she was 5, grew slowly until about 8 and have not grown since (go figure). The 8 year old (gelding) has 1 BB sized lump on his loin.

If grey is the _only_ thing going against this horse after your trial, I wouldn't let it be the deciding factor.


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## Twalker

elle1959 said:


> Here he is. I put him on my work server.


Oh I likie! He is cute.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Living in Central Texas with the intense UV's I was worried at first about melanomas with my greys and then I really started researching it.

_"Sooner or later, your gray horse will very possibly develop melanomas. That's the bad news. The good news is that they are rarely fatal. 

A melanoma is a cancer that develops in the melanin cells of the skin. Melanin, the pigment that makes some skin darker than others, is abundant in the skin of gray horses. While horses of other colors can develop melanomas, grays are especially vulnerable. 

Melanomas are solid, hard, usually round black tumors. Melanomas in humans are very serious because this cancer tends to spread internally. The rapid internal spread (metastasis) is usually consistent with a poor prognosis, and many human melanoma patients die within six months to a year of onset.

Melanomas in horses act very differently. They are usually only locally invasive and are slow growing. These round, black nodules are commonly found near the base of the ears, around the eyes, around the neck and jugular groove (the indentation on the side of the neck where the jugular lies between muscle groups), under the tail and around the vulva or rectum. These lumps are generally smooth, hard and non-painful. Occasionally, equine melanomas can metastasize and cause devastating internal problems, but most tumors remain in the skin and grow slowly during the horse's lifespan.

If the lump is small and not causing any other problems, it is usually best left alone. Some equine surgeons argue that operating on melanomas "activates" the cells and increases the chances of tumor growth. They recommend a cautious approach to the problem. " 

_Gray area 

What I found additionally, is that while greys are more likely to develop melanomas in the first place, the melanomas they develop are even less likely to metastasize than those on other colors of horses, so if everything else about him is what you are looking for, go for it and don't worry too much about the stuff you can't control. You never know what the future holds when you get a horse!


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## Administrator




----------



## Administrator

test~S


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## egrogan

Admin_Yungster said:


> View attachment 794921


Well that would be a very different direction for elle to go in...I don't think she's looking for a stallion...

_sorry, couldn't resist _


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

^^^^an Italian one at that!


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## DraftyAiresMum

Admin_Yungster said:


> View attachment 794921





egrogan said:


> Well that would be a very different direction for elle to go in...I don't think she's looking for a stallion...
> 
> _sorry, couldn't resist _





Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> ^^^^an Italian one at that!


:rofl:

Y'all are crackin' me up!! I've got guests walking by, looking at me like I'm nuts 'cuz I'm almost crying, I'm laughing so hard.


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## elle1959

LOL @ Admin Yungster!! :runninghorse2:


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## KigerQueen

there is a anti melanoma vax. they have been using it in horses and its working so there is hope if he gets one.


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## SwissMiss

Admin_Yungster said:


> View attachment 794921





egrogan said:


> Well that would be a very different direction for elle to go in...I don't think she's looking for a stallion...
> 
> _sorry, couldn't resist _





Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> ^^^^an Italian one at that!


hmm, that one needs a good grooming :rofl:


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

SwissMiss said:


> hmm, that one needs a good grooming :rofl:


Kind of looks like he got beat up by a mare or caught in a fence too....


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## SwissMiss

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Kind of looks like he got beat up by a mare or caught in a fence too....


:rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## stevenson

Elle, cute horse . I would would keep a fly sheet on him, for some uv ray protection , fly protection, and to help keep him cleaner ! 
Most greys get tumors as they get older. My TB did not show tumors until his 20's, but the Arab mare had tumors at an early age, and hers had grown internal.
My 11 yr old quarter horse had 0 .


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## elle1959

He's coming tomorrow!

:loveshower:


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## bsms

egrogan said:


> ...I don't think she's looking for a stallion...


And I thought she wanted a horse who is, shall we say, a little younger?


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## knightrider

He is so cute! I am very excited! Can't wait!


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## elle1959

knightrider said:


> He is so cute! I am very excited! Can't wait!


Me neither! You, of all people, know what I've dealt with here. He's got everything I wanted. His color is the only mark against him but I am willing to overlook that for everything else. I can't wait to get to know him better!


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## LoriF

elle1959 said:


> Yeah, and part of it too is that I have a friend at the barn who has had a terrible time with her grey horse. This horse is one of the best she's ever owned and she loves her dearly, but she's told me several times that if she had it to do over again she would never buy another grey.
> 
> The surgeries this horse has had to endure are just heartbreaking when you hear her tell it. So she is always strongly warning me whenever I am looking at a grey. Today I walked into the barn to let her know I would be bringing one in and she was on the phone; the barn manager asked if I was bringing a horse in and I said, "yes, but C-- isn't going to like it because he's grey." So then I heard all about the horrible ordeal she's had with her mare again. It's just been very difficult for her.



He sure is cute. He looks like a nice fellow.
Of course you may want to take precautions with a grey, but remember, someone else's story doesn't have to be yours and every leaf falls from the tree differently.


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## tinyliny

sure looks like either a cremello or a champagne.


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## elle1959

tinyliny said:


> sure looks like either a cremello or a champagne.


I don't think he's cremello because he has dark brown eyes. Champagne could be a possibility, though.


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## elle1959

And TODAY'S THE DAY!


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## Golden Horse

Counting down the hours......how many to go?


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## elle1959

Golden Horse said:


> Counting down the hours......how many to go?


About 40 minutes!


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## jenkat86

This is exciting!


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## EponaLynn

So happy for you and excited to hear how it goes!


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## EponaLynn

elle1959 said:


> I don't think he's cremello because he has dark brown eyes. Champagne could be a possibility, though.


Champagne usually have golden eyes, don't know if they have to though.


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## elle1959

Well, this is getting to be typical. There was a misunderstanding about days. He's coming tomorrow. The owner texted me yesterday to ask if "9:00am tomorrow" would be okay, but apparently she was thinking yesterday that it was Friday already. 

No biggie, I just have to wait one more day. That's life.


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## jaydee

That all sounds hopeful
If it helps - I've found that its the dapple and flea bitten type greys that are most prone to melanoma's but when they do develop they often just sit there and cause no trouble at all and a lot of vets think that they're best left alone unless they are causing a problem
The tumors you see in pink skinned horses you can at least do something to help prevent - fly masks and sheets with UV protection, keeping them out of the worst sun and loads of sunscreen


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## walkinthewalk

jaydee said:


> That all sounds hopeful
> If it helps - I've found that its the dapple and flea bitten type greys that are most prone to melanoma's but when they do develop they often just sit there and cause no trouble at all and a lot of vets think that they're best left alone unless they are causing a problem
> The tumors you see in pink skinned horses you can at least do something to help prevent - fly masks and sheets with UV protection, keeping them out of the worst sun and loads of sunscreen


^^^^This.

And FWIW my solid red chestnut has a couple small sarcoids on him. The vet tells me to "just keep an eye on them for any change. She said sometimes it can be like opening up Pandora's Box to start cutting one out.

He has one on his butt and another on the tip of his sheath. He's had them for 3-4 years (I've lost track of time and they haven't done anything. At this point they aren't even on my list of things to worry about with this horse ----- at this point-------

If the horse is everything you want and passes a PPE, you can't allow yourself to worry about the "what ifs". Just owning a horse is synonymous with and full of "what-if's".


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## weeedlady

Raven also has what I believe are sarcoids-3 in a cluster on her back. She's also got some little round bumps that I'm guessing (from what I've just learned on this thread) are melanoma "things".

They don't bother her, and we just leave them alone.

*Elle* I've got my fingers crossed for you. Hope the trial goes well.

_M_


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## elle1959

Today should be the day. I'll be leaving in about 20 minutes or so to head to the barn and meet them at 9:00. Got a bunch of things done yesterday, so that was good. I have a little work to do this afternoon for a client, but the bulk of the morning can be spent riding and working with Charlie


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## Country Woman

that is wonderful news I am so happy for you


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## weeedlady

Charlie is a good name. I like it better than PJ


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## Celeste

Subbing..........


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## Golden Horse

Walks in

looks around

"What no updates"

Kicks a stone and walks out again


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## elle1959

He's here. I like him. He's very calm. 

There are a few minor issues, but nothing has really come up beyond what we already saw when we checked him out on Wednesday. He is a bit gate sour in the arena, which I'm putting down to the fact that he hasn't been ridden in an arena for three years. He may be a little bit buddy sour as well, or it may be just him being in a new place and being nervous, but he didn't like when a horse left us while he was getting a bath today, and he got agitated over that, whinnied, stomped, and gave me a lot of side-eye, to which I just said, "really?" and just kept the hose on him until he stopped acting like a dork. Other than this, he's been very calm, if a bit stubborn and lazy. I think these are minor issues but we'll see what we can work through over the next couple of weeks.

I rode him for about 40 minutes today. We struggled a lot over the gate issue but once I got him headed away from the gate, he was pretty good, just a bit rusty and stubborn about staying at the rail in the arena. He definitely is in need of a tune up, but he does know his cues, just doesn't always want to yield to them. When we were finished, I rode him out of the arena, then turned back and asked him to go back in. He refused to go, and we fought over it for quite a while before I finally decided to dismount and lead him in. He followed stubbornly, and we did that a few times, in and out of the arena, in order to end on a good note.


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## elle1959

Here's a picture of us that my husband took today.


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## weeedlady

he's cute. I think you look like a good team.


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## elle1959

Thanks! I just ordered a longer set of reins for him. The 8' reins I had for Diva are way too short for him, which is funny since they are about the same height. He must have a much longer neck than she did.


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## Avna

You look good together! He looks like such a nice boy, too.

Lots of horses are gate sour, especially horses that have been lessoned or competed on. They know that inside the gate, it's boring hard work for them at best, confusing painful hard work at worst. 

Besides being firm about obeying cues at the gate, you might also think of creating fun interesting things to do inside the arena, and do those first thing and last thing. Tricky little obstacles, pushing a ball (many horses love pushing a big ball around), taking off his tack and letting him roll in the sand before leading him out . . . I'm sure you can think of more things yourself.


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## Change

My sister (with the carriage company) has had several grays over the years as "white" horses are the preferred color for weddings and such. She lives in AZ. Although some of the horses have developed melanoma bumps, none of them have causes any health issues and some of her working horses are now in their 20s and still going strong. 

Personally, I think it is a non-issue.

And I ditto everyone else's "He's cute," comments. I like the name, too!


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## Werecat

So far he's my favorite of the horses you've shared  I hope this one works out!


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## Avna

elle1959 said:


> Thanks! I just ordered a longer set of reins for him. The 8' reins I had for Diva are way too short for him, which is funny since they are about the same height. He must have a much longer neck than she did.


I bet they just have a different neck carriage.


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## sarahfromsc

It could be Diva carried her neck more upright and the new horse carries the head more level to the withers.


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## horseluvr2524

Still checking in. Your new guy is absolutely beautiful! I hope he works out.


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## LoriF

Charlie looks like a really nice horse, I like him.

Here's a great video for a horse that always wants to go to the gate to stop work.


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## elle1959

I spent most of my day catching up with an old friend, but we did stop by the barn to visit Charlie, if only for a few minutes. I fly sprayed him, groomed him, and walked him around a bit before putting him back in his paddock. I believe it's important for him to come to view me as the person who comes out every day. We should start getting out on the trail in the next few days and after that I think it will be much easier to develop the right relationship.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## elle1959

Well, he is quite gate sour. He was worse today than yesterday. Really wanted to fight me and head back up toward that gate and didn't want to be told to turn around. My instructor is coming out tomorrow, so we'll see what she has to offer; the advice I received from one of the experienced people at the barn was to work him hard right by the gate. We sort of did that today anyway, by default, as he kept heading there and I kept after him to turn around. The only difference is that I fought him, whereas she is telling me not to fight him, but to keep his feet moving by the gate. Not sure if I can do that because he wants to just stop at the gate and not move *unless* I fight with him. Basically he's just used to doing what he wants, I think. 

Each time I ask him to turn, he wants to keep turning until he's in the direction of the gate and then move up that way. I'm going to give him a few more days but I'm also going to push his PPE out to the end of next week. It's scheduled for Wednesday and I don't think I'll be ready to decide on him by then.


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## knightrider

Awww, nuts. Hope he's just testing you . . . and you passed the test.


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## elle1959

Well, I tried to end on a good note but after two hours of non-stop fighting with him over this, the best I could do was dismount when I sort of had him heading toward the center of the arena and then lead him back to the opposite end where I loosened his girth. I'm told by two people that I need to work him hard by the gate and not fight, but honestly he doesn't even want to move when he's there and I don't know how I am going to be able to get him to move without fighting with him. At any rate, he is rapidly turning out to be no fun at all.


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## Knave

Elle, just my two cents, but I would do exactly as your friend recommended. Work the horse at the gate. I know it seems counter-intuitive, but it does work. 

Just trot little circles at the gate, and maybe disengage some, and keep the horse moving. Soon enough (maybe it will take the horse a while seeing how bad he is) the horse will try to push out on his own. Let him. Relax away from the gate if he lets you, he'll probably turn right back to the gate. Continue the process each time he heads back. Each time it will not take as long. Eventually he figures out that the gate is not a fun place, but the other side of the arena is great! Once he learns this concept you can do it anywhere and it will make life a ton easier.  

Good luck either way.


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## elle1959

All he wants to do at the gate is stand there, fight me, or bang up against it with me on his back. I'll try working him in circles there but not sure how well that's going to work. As I just told my instructor, I'm not willing to risk my butt for someone else's horse. Honestly I'm beginning to think that no one has asked this horse to do anything but follow a trail string in the three years his current owner has had him. Easy to say he has no buck or rear in him when you have never pushed his lazy self past his comfort zone.


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## Bondre

If he's that gate sour there's no way I'd contemplate keeping him. Sour horses require a fair bit of work and alot of patience to get them through the issue. It's not just a question of unsticking him from the gate once, but every darned time you ride for the immediate future. Sure, every success you have will make the next one easier, but you always have to keep your guard up in case he tries testing you out of the blue. 

Do you know whether he rides out alone on the trail? If he's this gate sour in an arena I wonder if he'll refuse to go out alone as well. 

If he was offered as a cheap project it would be another story, but he doesn't sound like a horse that's worth paying through the nose for.

So sorry he's not what you hoped for in the arena.


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## tinyliny

elle1959 said:


> All he wants to do at the gate is stand there, fight me, or bang up against it with me on his back. I'll try working him in circles there but not sure how well that's going to work. As I just told my instructor, I'm not willing to risk my butt for someone else's horse. Honestly I'm beginning to think that no one has asked this horse to do anything but follow a trail string in the three years his current owner has had him. Easy to say he has no buck or rear in him when you have never pushed his lazy self past his comfort zone.



I am not sure if this was shown in one of the videos posted to your thread, but one thing you do is when he turns toward the gate, and starts moving toward it (after you've mounted up at a distance from it), you start 'annoying' him with your leg. you let him go to the gate, in fact, you can even hurry him there by bop-bop-bopping him with your legs on his sides, just enough to be annoying. get him moving even more forward toward the gate than he even wants , and when he arrives there, you will have some momentum to work with , having him go in circles, with your legs bopping him all along. it's kind of like you steer him only when to get him to turn away from it, then you allow him to choose to go back toward it or not, if he does, you bop, but not steering. you are letting him choose the difficutl way.

then, when he is facing away from the gate, try to open your hand outward, so of offering him the chance to go outward, and stop bopping. if he goes out, then not bopping, but if he goes three steps then starts to peel off to go back, you start the annoying bopping. so, facing gate and going there gets bopping, facing away, gets quiet. 

It might have been Warwich Schiller who demonstrated that on a horse but, in this case it was a horse that was afraid to go somewhere. same concept, sort of. go where I ask, things are quiet, go where you want and it will be very annoying (hard).


----------



## horseluvr2524

Honestly, I don't think there is such a thing as 'no buck or rear'. Sure, you can have a broke horse that is really good and NEVER does it, except for the freak incident or tack malfunction. But all horses rear and buck, at some point. All horses are capable of kicking and biting too. Its just part of being a horse. Its how the horse is handled that will determine if they continue the behavior and it actually turns into a problem. I remember a farrier telling me, "Don't say your horse doesn't kick. All horses kick. The horses I'm usually kicked by are the ones who are owned by the people who say they don't kick." lol.

There is my 2 cents on that.

The way I determine if a horse is appropriate for a less confident/experienced rider is how they react when they are pushed past their comfort zone. Obviously, you can only do this by pushing the horse past their comfort zone. This would be better done by your trainer. If the horse throws a fit, tosses their head, maybe dances around or turns in circles (my mother's horse's patented 'I don't want to'), but gives in fairly easily are usually a good horse to have. The ones that blow up or have an extreme reaction, obviously are not.

I would personally probably be looking at horses that can ride out alone. That usually is the difference between a well broke riding horse and one that knows how to follow a tail. Of course, in your search I'm sure you HAVE been looking at horses that will ride out alone :wink:


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

horseluvr2524 said:


> Honestly, I don't think there is such a thing as 'no buck or rear'. Sure, you can have a broke horse that is really good and NEVER does it, except for the freak incident or tack malfunction. *But all horses rear and buck, at some point.* All horses are capable of kicking and biting too. Its just part of being a horse. Its how the horse is handled that will determine if they continue the behavior and it actually turns into a problem. I remember a farrier telling me, "Don't say your horse doesn't kick. All horses kick. The horses I'm usually kicked by are the ones who are owned by the people who say they don't kick." lol.
> 
> There is my 2 cents on that.


I wouldn't go so far as to say that all horses will rear at some point, but I do agree that pretty much all of them will buck (or try to). Even my lazy draft cross has thrown a couple little hissy-fit bucks. Nothing to write home about and easily ridden (when he bucked with my best friend, she started laughing because it was so pathetic :lol: ), but it was a buck, nonetheless.


----------



## jaydee

I'd personally send him back now, you aren't looking for a project horse that's got problems like that, you want something uncomplicated that you can get on a ride with not worries. 
We call that sort of behavior 'napping' in the UK and while you can get them out of it you sometimes have to go through their 'Plan B' stage which involves them rearing and bucking on the spot before that happens
If I was keeping him I'd lunge him or loose work him in there rather than ride him - you can get after them harder without the worries of having your riding ability challenged more than you can cope with. It doesn't always solve the issue but a lot of them time they see you as the dominant one on the ground they'll transfer that to the saddle


----------



## Folly

Ugh - I so wanted this one to be an angel. My first horse would argue with me at gates... not in an arena, but riding out (even with another horse, she just wanted to go home). She finally ramped it up to 'popping up' in the front and after riding that out for 4 rides I called it quits. I didn't have the skills and it was no fun. I finally figured out the same thing you mentioned earlier - She was a trail horse with many miles on her, and her owner was an old man who wasn't a particularly strong rider.... I thought that was perfect, but it really meant that my horse was used to being nose to tail in a trail string and that didn't translate into what I needed. sigh.


----------



## 6gun Kid

tinyliny said:


> I am not sure if this was shown in one of the videos posted to your thread, but one thing you do is when he turns toward the gate, and starts moving toward it (after you've mounted up at a distance from it), you start 'annoying' him with your leg. you let him go to the gate, in fact, you can even hurry him there by bop-bop-bopping him with your legs on his sides, just enough to be annoying. get him moving even more forward toward the gate than he even wants , and when he arrives there, you will have some momentum to work with , having him go in circles, with your legs bopping him all along. it's kind of like you steer him only when to get him to turn away from it, then you allow him to choose to go back toward it or not, if he does, you bop, but not steering. you are letting him choose the difficutl way.
> 
> then, when he is facing away from the gate, try to open your hand outward, so of offering him the chance to go outward, and stop bopping. if he goes out, then not bopping, but if he goes three steps then starts to peel off to go back, you start the annoying bopping. so, facing gate and going there gets bopping, facing away, gets quiet.
> 
> It might have been Warwich Schiller who demonstrated that on a horse but, in this case it was a horse that was afraid to go somewhere. same concept, sort of. go where I ask, things are quiet, go where you want and it will be very annoying (hard).


This is the exact same technique I used for barn sour horses too! Learned it from Buck Brannaman, or one of his books, rather.


----------



## Skyseternalangel

I don't see why gate sour behavior is a reason to send him packing. He hasn't been ridden in an arena in years. He's likely testing as well. Every horse has a vice...


----------



## Bondre

Skyseternalangel said:


> I don't see why gate sour behavior is a reason to send him packing. He hasn't been ridden in an arena in years. He's likely testing as well. Every horse has a vice...


In that case the price should reflect the vice. And I understand he's not cheap. 

Plus if I was looking for a fun, reliable horse for a novice rider there's no way I'd consider one with a vice like this. Neither fun not reliable.


----------



## walkinthewalk

elle1959 said:


> Meet Charlie Horse. He's going to be coming to visit with me for two weeks, starting on Saturday.
> 
> Charlie is a registered QH, registered as a palomino but it seems to me that he's got the grey gene. That's the only thing I'm worried about with him.
> 
> His current owner has used him on trails extensively; he's got lots of training but hasn't been used in an arena for a while. *However, he went fine in the arena for us, just a little rusty so needs a bit of a tuneup. That's easy enough. *
> 
> He's mellow and level headed, leads well, just seems to be a real sweetheart with a kind eye, and everything I thought I wanted.
> 
> .


This was the day you went and rode him. What has changed since then to make him suddenly be labeled psychotic?

There is no piece of a horse's training that should involve two hours of fighting and frustration. If things are going backward after 15 minutes, IMHO it's time to quit. Stopping on a positive note is the right thing to do but sometimes we have to lower our standards as to what that positive note is.

I agree with Jaydee to send him back. NOT because of what I consider a minor issue but because it is already in your head, Elle, the horse is ill-mannered and refuses to listen to you.

Once that mind set creeps in, whether it's a horse, learning to play tennis or golf, it stays at the forefront and serves as a subliminal roadblock to success.

When dealing with animals, it also transfers to body language and negative pheromones the animal quickly picks up on.


----------



## elle1959

walkinthewalk said:


> This was the day you went and rode him. What has changed since then to make him suddenly be labeled psychotic?


His owner was still there. The first day I had him at my barn, he whinnied for her several times after she left. He's in a new place where he doesn't feel secure and work is being demanded of him that he hasn't had to do in at least three years. I have two weeks to evaluate him and I have to do what I need to do within that time to figure out if he'll ever do what I need him to do. Isn't this the purpose of a trial? To find out what the horse will do in more than a 30 minute test drive? Or do all horses act the same all the time? Boy, that would be easy. 

You can blame me, that's the default position of everyone around here, oh it's the rider's fault. But I'm not stupid.


----------



## elle1959

Man, I sure didn't want this thread to turn into a "blame the rider for the sour horse" sort of thing. I think if any of you saw me out there trying to work with him you would not be seeing a scared or frightened person. I'm pretty tough and I don't carry a lot of fear. 

However, I will say this. I'm not willing to push this horse beyond a certain point because a) he's not my horse and b) I'm not going to risk injury over this because it isn't worth it. Yesterday i worked very hard to convince Charlie that it was much easier to do what I ask than to do what he wanted. He was having none of it. A better rider might know better ways to get him under control, but even in that case I don't think Charlie is ever going to be happy in an arena. He might plod along, as he did for a couple of laps before he decided he was finished, but he'll do it without any joy. And that is probably the best reason to let him go back home to his pasture. 

His owner has done nothing but trails with him and he is supposed to be the go-to horse she has for putting anyone on. What I'm seeing now is that he is dead to cues, but he'll follow. He's one of those horses that we sometimes hear referred to as "shut down" and he doesn't want to be awakened from that state. Someone mentioned lunging; man, I can't even get him to move in the round pen or on a lunge line. He'll begrudgingly walk a little, if I insist, but even in the round pen if I get after him with the whip and actually touch him with it, he'll just stand there. What do you do with a horse like that? I guess you put kids on his back and let him follow on the trails. I don't know. I wanted a horse with little spook but not one that's completely dead to the world


----------



## elle1959

Bondre said:


> In that case the price should reflect the vice. And I understand he's not cheap.
> 
> Plus if I was looking for a fun, reliable horse for a novice rider there's no way I'd consider one with a vice like this. Neither fun not reliable.


Yes, so far he has been pretty much no fun at all. I'll get him out on the trail as soon as I have time and can get out there when some of my other barn mates are headed out. That might be better but I have a feeling he won't do anything other than follow mindlessly. I doubt he'll yield to leg cues on the trail either. He won't be distracted by a gate, so we'll see. 

But yes, he is not cheap and for the money they are asking I would expect a horse without this enormous vice. And, just to set the record straight, we DID see this vice when we first checked him out. It didn't seem as bad on that first test run, but his owner was standing there, and his habit seems to be to comply at first before deciding he's ready to head in. Whatever.


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## Knave

Elle,

I hope you didn't take what I said as a blaming you thing. It wasn't at all, I just was letting you know how I would approach it. 

Also though, I also wouldn't put a lot of time into a horse that wasn't mine for nothing. I likely wouldn't buy a horse with a huge issue either, unless I absolutely loved it. 

Don't stress. Sorry this one is yet another flop. You do seem to be a person who is not hasty, so I bet you will end up with something lovely.  good luck.


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## Avna

You aren't stupid, but you might be needing something in a horse that isn't available in your price range or maybe at all -- an absolutely vice-free horse who never is going to challenge you. 

Have you considered leasing or sharing a horse that gets ridden regularly by a competent trainer? If you don't have the time nor the expertise to both eliminate bad habits and prevent them from occurring, you might need to look at different options.


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## elle1959

Knave said:


> Elle,
> 
> I hope you didn't take what I said as a blaming you thing. It wasn't at all, I just was letting you know how I would approach it.
> 
> Also though, I also wouldn't put a lot of time into a horse that wasn't mine for nothing. I likely wouldn't buy a horse with a huge issue either, unless I absolutely loved it.
> 
> Don't stress. Sorry this one is yet another flop. You do seem to be a person who is not hasty, so I bet you will end up with something lovely.  good luck.


No, I don't mind advice at all and would never take offense at that. It's the ones that automatically assume that I'm somehow transmitting bad juju to him because I'm afraid (I am not) and that all these issues are not actually real that tick me off. If that were the case, I'd never ride any horse successfully.


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## walkinthewalk

It is not turning into a "blame the rider". I think you are trying way too hard to make things happen.

Don't struggle with anything you want to do with the horse. The only time two hours should be involved, is if there's a trail ride.

Decide before you get there, what you would LIKE to accomplish, then decide what you will SETTLE for and keep it to 15 minutes.

Yes, YOU have a time schedule but the horse does not, nor does the horse care.

Even though all my horses load on a trailer without issue, I never took that for granted. I always made it a point to start loading 15 minutes ahead of time in case someone, for who knows what reason, would decide not to load that day.

And that is precisely what happened the day Joker catapulted backward off my 4-horse trailer, landed on his butt and fractured his sacrum.

Why did he do that? H**l I don't know. I had carefully checked the trailer for spiders and bees, yet in a split second before I could hook him to the trailer tie, he was flying out backward.

He was a well seasoned horse at that point and had no reason to act like a fool but he did.

We can only do so much with a horse on our timetable and pretty soon that table turns and a fight ensues.

Don't try so hard, don't try for perfection because it doesn't exist in the horse world

[QUOTE*]His owner has done nothing but trails with him and he is supposed to be the go-to horse she has for putting anyone on. What I'm seeing now is that he is dead to cues, but he'll follow. He's one of those horses that we sometimes hear referred to as "shut down" and he doesn't want to be awakened from that state. Someone mentioned lunging; man, I can't even get him to move in the round pen or on a lunge line. He'll begrudgingly walk a little, if I insist, but even in the round pen if I get after him with the whip and actually touch him with it, he'll just stand there. What do you do with a horse like that? I guess you put kids on his back and let him follow on the trails. I don't know. I wanted a horse with little spook but not one that's completely dead to the world*  *[/*QUOTE]

That IS the horse we would all use to put anyone one That's the point of a horse like that. That type of horse is just about all of our idea of a beginner horse, "safe for anyone". Nobody is saying the horse is finely tuned or without a few flaws- we know we can put anyone on that horse and they won't get hurt.


As far as being lazy --- yes, they get lazy when kids ride them. Horses quickly pick up on just how little work they can get away with and it takes three times as long to re-break them from getting that lazy notion out of their head. The three times as long can't be done at one time - it has to be done in increments so nobody, including the horse, gets frustrated and blows.

Which is why I'm with Jaydee on sending Charlie back, if your time is minimal. The wrong tone has already been set which could easily lead to more frustration.


Everyone wants to see you find a horse you mesh with and can enjoy. Those of us with years of experience are trying to give advice and be helpful.


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## elle1959

Avna said:


> You aren't stupid, but you might be needing something in a horse that isn't available in your price range or maybe at all -- an absolutely vice-free horse who never is going to challenge you.
> 
> Have you considered leasing or sharing a horse that gets ridden regularly by a competent trainer? If you don't have the time nor the expertise to both eliminate bad habits and prevent them from occurring, you might need to look at different options.


Yes, I'm definitely looking for a Very Good Horse. I think there are good horses out there but here they are hard to find under $7000, and I don't have anywhere close to $7000 to spend. 

I don't think I mind being challenged-- Gracie challenged me on the ground and we worked with that and, in the end, she protected me-- but this behavior in Charlie is not minor. It's major.

My early searches here were for leases. Very hard to find and they are almost always onsite leases with vast distances to travel. I like having the horse close. I ride a horse for an hour a week anyway during my lessons and if I'm riding long distances to get to a leased horse, I probably wouldn't get there more often than this. So it's kind of not practical, though in theory it sounds good.


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## Whinnie

That is so disappointing, I am so sorry. I know how hard you have looked. If you are not a novice rider is there any chance of finding a greener-but-great-tempered horse to bring along yourself (with help)? I have had great success doing just that and the little things have that come up in training are so much easier to take care of before they become firm vices.


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## Celeste

It might be better to keep on looking.


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## Folly

Elle, I'm also in the group that gets frustrated with the assumption that it is always the rider's fault. I finally found out that there are horses that just have it in their nature to 'get along'. I've learned to head off issues, but it doesn't have to be a big blowout every time. (that said, I do honestly appreciate the brutal truth that experienced equestrians offer!!! I've learned so much on this forum, and sometimes I've had my feelings bruised a bit, lol. I'm just offering my perspective for balance). Here's what I wrote in another thread:

"I'm 53 and bought my first horse a year ago February..... It just didn't work out... she had my number for sure. Experienced riders could manage it, but I wasn't experienced and was starting too late in life to get it all figured out. I was almost convinced it was "all me" (even though I had successfully ridden well-broke horses in the past). Then I had the chance to ride a friend's horse a few times, and I was able to manage her 'respectful' objections and occasional minor spooks just fine. That gave me some confidence back, and I realized that it wasn't 'all me'... my MFT indeed had some baggage and bad manners and holes in her training, and I did not cause every problem (though I likely exacerbated some of them). ... I decided we needed to break up, and I needed a fresh start. I now have had a different horse for over 3 months - I learned a ton from the "wrong" horse that is helping me be a better owner for my new one. Things are going great, I've ridden her probably 4x as much in the few months I've had her as I ever rode my previous horse in 9 months - because I'm not fearful of her. She's not a deadhead, and I do have to "ride" her... but she is well trained. I'm always on guard and try to stay ahead of any issues, but you know what? I haven't ruined her yet :wink: "

So, I don't have a crystal ball and I'm sure we'll encounter hiccups (so far every time I think the sky is falling, it's been a ridiculously easy fix... I'm just spooked by my last experience). Last night the barn's trainer was short a lesson horse, and asked if she could use mine (I owe this woman a lot, and knew I could trust her)... my mare was a champ and did great. 

I did NOT pay a fortune for her, but it took some serendipity for me to finally bring her home. That's a long story for another post.

Sorry this is so long - but it is NOT always the rider's fault... even those of us who haven't been at it forever (but who are approaching it intelligently). Hang in there.


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## elle1959

> _*His owner has done nothing but trails with him and he is supposed to be the go-to horse she has for putting anyone on. What I'm seeing now is that he is dead to cues, but he'll follow. He's one of those horses that we sometimes hear referred to as "shut down" and he doesn't want to be awakened from that state. Someone mentioned lunging; man, I can't even get him to move in the round pen or on a lunge line. He'll begrudgingly walk a little, if I insist, but even in the round pen if I get after him with the whip and actually touch him with it, he'll just stand there. What do you do with a horse like that? I guess you put kids on his back and let him follow on the trails. I don't know. I wanted a horse with little spook but not one that's completely dead to the world*_
> 
> That IS the horse we would all use to put anyone one That's the point of a horse like that. That type of horse is just about all of our idea of a beginner horse, "safe for anyone". Nobody is saying the horse is finely tuned or without a few flaws- we know we can put anyone on that horse and they won't get hurt.


Seems to me that I can't learn anything with a horse like this. What I'll learn is how to sit around on a horse. I already know how to do that. I'm a novice, but I'm not completely green at this point. I've been riding for almost a year. My whole point is to have a horse so that I can practice what I learn. How do I do that with a horse like this? Are you suggesting I need to be an advanced rider before I should have a horse? This is like telling my husband he shouldn't buy a drum kit to practice on and should only play the drums once a week with his drum teacher. I honestly don't understand. 

I do understand that a horse is not a drum kit or a machine. But, just like you need a kick drum pedal to actually kick the drum to practice, it seems to me that a learner needs a horse that will respond to the things being learned. That's really ALL I'm looking for, as far as arena work. That and relative calm.


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## jaydee

I don't think it should be about blaming the rider - it should be all about what this rider wants.
Sure the horse could probably be fixed using the 'hell behind, heaven in front' principle but that's not what Elle wants to do, it's not what I'd want to do any more either because with horses like this you really have no clue what they're going to throw at you in that journey until you get there
The first US horse I bought was a dream when I tried her at the dealers, I rode her in a manège and around their property on my own and the only thing she did remotely wrong was to 'startle' at something that flew out of some bushes - and in fairness too her she was never at all spooky. On that day I would have declared her wonderful but after a few weeks she had started acting really strangely and by 6 weeks she was throwing herself against the fence and leaping into the air for no reason at all that I could see so she went back - I just don't need that sort of horse any more so I totally understand where Elle is coming from


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## evilamc

Not entirely sure where you're at in Cali but I love looking at horses for sale and was bored...came across a few that look amazing...

I'm like drooling over some of these horses for sale in Cali LOL! 
AMAZING Trail Partner. Will Go Anywhere!!!

Buy mom and dad their own horse!

GORGEOUS GELDING ranch/trail/sorting

Finish Western Pleasure Show Gelding

They said this one is fast...which isn't always great for novice but I remember once before you said you liked fast and fast didn't scare you as long as its a controllable fast 
Big Palomino Ranch Gelding


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## Celeste

There are plenty of horses out there that are trained well enough to do what you want. This horse just may not be the one. 

I think a well trained horse should respond to basic cues and not refuse to do anything except stand by the gate no matter if the rider is a 10 year old kid on his first ride.


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## elle1959

evilamc said:


> Not entirely sure where you're at in Cali but I love looking at horses for sale and was bored...came across a few that look amazing...
> 
> I'm like drooling over some of these horses for sale in Cali LOL!
> AMAZING Trail Partner. Will Go Anywhere!!!
> 
> Buy mom and dad their own horse!
> 
> GORGEOUS GELDING ranch/trail/sorting
> 
> Finish Western Pleasure Show Gelding
> 
> They said this one is fast...which isn't always great for novice but I remember once before you said you liked fast and fast didn't scare you as long as its a controllable fast
> Big Palomino Ranch Gelding


Thanks. That first horse is with the same sellers that have Cinnamon, the red dun. They bombproof those horses with some solid work but don't arena train them at all. Cinnamon is still an option for a trial if I decide to renew my stall for another month, but she's also crazy in the arena and after this experience I'm not sure I want to go there again. They're not asking quite so much money for her. 

Most of those horses are out of my price range (including that first one) but some look interesting.


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## jaydee

I'd find the money from somewhere to buy the first horse if he really is as good as he look!!!
I like the third one too - I'd buy him if just to remove the braids from his mane


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## elle1959

The third one is close to my price range. I might contact them about him.


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## Zexious

Ugh. I'm sorry to hear this has been such a frustrating search for you. 

I haven't read through every post on all 50 pages, but are you working with a trainer? I gather that you're taking lessons, but what I mean is have you commissioned them to help you look for a horse? I feel like that's the way to go...

Wishing you all the luck! <3


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## jaydee

I think you just have to keep trying anything that looks hopeful
I wouldn't be put off by the price tag on the bay either - if you tried him and liked him you could always make an offer that you could afford and leave it there for them to think about, it really is a buyers market right now and they might just prefer to have the cash in their bank than wait for someone else to come along to give their asking price


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## elle1959

jaydee said:


> I think you just have to keep trying anything that looks hopeful
> I wouldn't be put off by the price tag on the bay either - if you tried him and liked him you could always make an offer that you could afford and leave it there for them to think about, it really is a buyers market right now and they might just prefer to have the cash in their bank than wait for someone else to come along to give their asking price


One thing I do know, since I know the sellers fairly well now, is that they will give me a trial. They suggest that they aren't in a hurry to sell him in this ad, which seems to be code (to me) for "we really believe we'll get what we're asking for him." So, I dunno. They haven't suggested him (or any other horse) to me but they also know I've been looking at less expensive horses than this. 

They are away on vacation right now so I can't really do anything with him just yet, anyway.


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## natisha

elle1959 said:


> Thanks. That first horse is with the same sellers that have Cinnamon, the red dun. They bombproof those horses with some solid work but don't arena train them at all. Cinnamon is still an option for a trial if I decide to renew my stall for another month, but she's also crazy in the arena and after this experience I'm not sure I want to go there again. They're not asking quite so much money for her.
> 
> Most of those horses are out of my price range (including that first one) but some look interesting.


Only looked at the first one so far but question his left front leg & I never saw him a snaffle at all.


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## Folly

natisha said:


> Only looked at the first one so far but question his left front leg & I never saw him a snaffle at all.


Just curious and love learning - why the snaffle comment? In my area, a finished western horse has usually "graduated" to a mild curb with a one hand neck rein, but will still ride fine in a snaffle. (That horse is wearing western gear, right?)


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## natisha

Folly said:


> Just curious and love learning - why the snaffle comment? In my area, a finished western horse has usually "graduated" to a mild curb with a one hand neck rein, but will still ride fine in a snaffle. (That horse is wearing western gear, right?)


The ad said he rides in a simple snaffle but was seen in a curb. No big deal but I would expect the words to match the pictures.
I suspect the seller meant the bit had a jointed mouthpiece.


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## evilamc

The mare seems a decent price, what's her turn off for you?

I wish I could sell you my mare, I haven't rode her in arena much but few times I have she still behaves well  I feel like she's exactly what you're looking for. Too bad I'm in Ohio


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## Folly

natisha said:


> The ad said he rides in a simple snaffle but was seen in a curb. No big deal but I would expect the words to match the pictures.
> I suspect the seller meant the bit had a jointed mouthpiece.


Got it! Thanks


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## david in md

My family has had 4 horses for 4 years now. I guess I'm lucky as I bought and still own 4 of the 8 horses I've ever looked at. The perfect horse does not exist and if it does it is not for sale. Our first horse was a stubborn Appaloosa mare. When she decided she didn't want to do something she would stop and refuse to go forward. It took us a while but we discovered she has a great reverse and would back to the ends of the earth. We would turn her around and back to where we wanted to go. She figured out what we were doing and decided it was easier to do what we asked going forward. This mare also had a serious trailer loading issue. I sent the kids to the house and had a CTJ trailer loading lesson with her. I have not had to repeat that lesson. My daughter's trainer calls my personal gelding "sling shot" as given to his own volition he'd run from one end of the arena to the other and bounce off of the fences. Once I learned to control him he's a great fun ride. The other horses each had their own issues that we've corrected or learned to deal with. To me the allure of horses is taking raw horse flesh and molding it into something desirable much as an artist would sculpt a chunk of clay. That being said, all my horses were middle to senior aged and weren't that raw so it's been more of a restoration. If it wasn't for the human animal interaction we'd probably ride ATV's as it would be easier and cheaper. There is a great sense of accomplishment getting a 1100# animal with a mind of it's own to do what you ask. My point is find a horse you can work with and work to make it the horse you really want. Good luck.


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## Knave

Elle, 

It is hard and time consuming to find the type of horse that you are looking for, but it is not impossible. My aunt is looking for the same thing, and I assume it will take her awhile. We purchased a horse like that for a friend recently, and he did cost 6,400, but he is amazing and everything she needed. You'll find something you don't need to fight with, and you don't have to be a perfect horseman to do so. Don't get brought down.


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## knightrider

I am probably the only person on this forum who is familiar with how Elle rides. We rode together about 3 hours a day for 5 days. She is impressive as a rider with decent form and good control. She is quick to correct a horse, but does not overcorrect. Her instincts are spot on. She's an easy fun person to be around as well, just an all around good and competent capable person in lots of ways. 

I'm sure you've been around sort of weird nerdy people who just don't have it together. Elle is NOT. Nothing like that. Not only is she a decent rider, but she's a grand person.

I don't understand what kind of karma is going on about horses with Elle, but it is not something she is doing. It is something that is happening to her.

Elle, hang in there. I don't know why you are getting such rotten luck with these horses, but it is not you. That part I know. I think your trainer was not good for Diva, perhaps too demanding, like Hoofpick's trainer. I don't know. But I do know that you have good ability and good horse sense. The right horse will come along . . . perhaps the universe is playing games with you and when it is done, you'll be where you need to be. Please don't give up. We had such a good time that week at my place and all the rides were great.


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## KigerQueen

want good horse in that price range start looking in az. i know one for under 2 that is an 18 year old ex roping horse. she has spunk when asked for and at the same time will calm down when asked. start looking on the az craigslist.


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## elle1959

My instructor came out today and we worked with Charlie a bit. She still really likes him for me. She showed me a few tricks to get him moving away from the gate while thinking it's his own idea and not fighting with him for dominance. 

He did test me again by banging into the gate, but I held my ground just as I did yesterday. He was a bit more malleable, though still wanting to head toward the gate. Basically, we just did circles at the gate and then gave him an opportunity to move away from there on his own, which he did, but then he'd head back for more circles. 

In all other respects he's been good, and she thinks this could sort out within the next week or so, so he's still in the running. She's coming out again tomorrow to assess whether or not he is improving.


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## horseluvr2524

KigerQueen said:


> want good horse in that price range start looking in az. i know one for under 2 that is an 18 year old ex roping horse. she has spunk when asked for and at the same time will calm down when asked. start looking on the az craigslist.


Agreed. While I think that this horse has a good chance of working out for you Elle and am glad you are sticking with it for a while, if by chance he does not work out it might be worth considering AZ horses. California is in general a much higher cost of living, and in terms of horses you tend to get less for your money.
Horse buying and ownership really is a different world out here in AZ than most other parts of the country, which I have learned by being on this forum. For example, I had never even heard of a PPE before coming on this forum, and it wasn't like I was around only ******** (some were, but not all! lol). We have our high end barns and shows too of course (Scottsdale Arabian Horse Show), but the average owner here does not do all of the precautionary extras that most consider a necessity. I'm not saying its right, its just the way it is. If I ever bought a horse again I would definitely want a PPE.

Anyway, that aside (sorry for the ramble!), even with the cost of hauling the horse to California, you might have better luck finding a good solid horse for less in AZ. Might even work out to be in your budget, with hauling included. In general, $1500 will get you a really nice all rounder horse out here. A lot of times you can find them for even less than that.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Elle, in light of your last post, I think that unless he starts getting dangerous, you should wait it out at least for the trial period. 

When we started training Oliver at for about two months everything was great. Then they slid south for a bit as he was learning all sorts of new things quickly under saddle (maybe pushed too fast?). 

At that time, I was thinking “What have I gotten myself into? I’ve got no business at my age riding a horse like this. I have lost my ever-lovin' mind.” 

Then within a few weeks with guidance from my trainer, and determination, things started to come around. We gained an understanding between us as slowly communication was established under saddle. 

I started to learn how he felt under me when he was confused, frustrated or scared and what he needed from me to get past it. The arguments disappeared and we started our real relationship, which has become really outstanding. 

It’s much more complicated than what I just relayed, but looking back, I learned a lot about myself (like how to not hold it against him) and my horse in the process. Each horse, even those that just pass through our lives quickly have something to teach us. I'm really glad I stuck it out.


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## jaydee

He could be one of those horses that 'tests' a new rider but knows never to actually cross that boundary in to 'dangerous' behavior territory. He's also been with one owner for some time hasn't he? Some horses can have a real mental block about accepting someone new.


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## horseluvr2524

Here are some AZ horses.

This guy really stood out to me 'very well trained to leg pressure'. He's up there in the age bracket but sounds like exactly what you want.
Safe Family horse, no spook- traffic safe used in C-Bar movie!

Another nice looking and sounding prospect, 14 years.
Gelding Fantastic all around horse.

National Show Horse mare

16'2H 1250# AQHA Family Friendly 8yr old big stout gelding

PAINT HORSE

Papered Arab gelding

Dark chestnut qh

8 yr old Arabian/grade mare

Bay Gelding

Thoroughbred for sale


I thought the first two horses sounded like really good prospects for you.


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## Whinnie

Elle, having an instructor/trainer is the key. If I had not had the help of my still-in-college trainer, I would have not been happy with my mare. Every time she throws something at me out of the blue, my trainer shows me how to handle it and something I thought was a big deal becomes a minor issue that I can handle and correct.

You have a trial period, probably you should "ride" it out, see what your instructor thinks and then decide. Have her ride him out by himself the first time on the trail, of course.

I ask my instructor to ride my mare once in a while for an assessment or if I am having an issue I am unable to correct and it has helped me every time.

I think every horse gets a little testy when taken to a new place unless they are really used to travelling. Good luck!


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## Acadianartist

So sorry to read about your struggles elle! I just saw two more horses today myself - neither of which are really what I'm looking for. This is getting so, so discouraging. And I'm looking for a second horse! It makes me feel so fortunate that we found our dear Harley so easily the first time. He's not perfect, but **** close . I guess we got lucky. Not sure why we're having so much difficulty finding a second horse, but I really sympathize with what you're going through. 

People think horse shopping is fun, but to me, it's really not. But maybe after having our hearts broken a few times by duds, we start to expect the worst from a horse. We want to believe this is the ONE, but really, we're looking for the BUT... (he's cute, but too short/green/old/etc.). I don't know. It sounds like you're trying really hard to make it work so whether it's with Charlie or with another horse, I'm confident it will all work out. I just look forward to no more horse-shopping for both of us! We should be enjoying our horses and working on improving ourselves and our mounts rather than spending all our time trying to weed out the bad from the good. 

Best of luck and keep us informed! We are all rooting for you.


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## bsms

elle1959 said:


> Man, I sure didn't want this thread to turn into a "blame the rider for the sour horse" sort of thing. I think if any of you saw me out there trying to work with him you would not be seeing a scared or frightened person. I'm pretty tough and I don't carry a lot of fear.
> 
> However, I will say this. I'm not willing to push this horse beyond a certain point because a) he's not my horse and b) I'm not going to risk injury over this because it isn't worth it. Yesterday i worked very hard to convince Charlie that it was much easier to do what I ask than to do what he wanted. He was having none of it. A better rider might know better ways to get him under control, but even in that case I don't think Charlie is ever going to be happy in an arena. He might plod along, as he did for a couple of laps before he decided he was finished, but he'll do it without any joy. And that is probably the best reason to let him go back home to his pasture...
> 
> ... My instructor came out today and we worked with Charlie a bit. She still really likes him for me. She showed me a few tricks to get him moving away from the gate while thinking it's his own idea and not fighting with him for dominance...


In 1890, James Fillis wrote: ""In place of first putting the blame on the horse, which is only natural,the rider ought perhaps begin by trying to find out if he himself is not the culprit."

In 2016, on the Internet, it is too often, "The rider is always wrong."

I spent 7 years hearing how Mia would stop spooking if I would stop being nervous and making her afraid. That kind of begged the question on how she was able to lather herself up just standing in a corral by herself when she arrived, or why it is that the very confident owners who have her now still deal with her occasional spins or sideways jumps. 

I've owned Trooper for 8 years. He is what he is. I keep him for my youngest daughter. They get along fine. Some years back I put Mia on the back burner and rode Trooper for about 8 months solid. He got better about leg cues (which my daughter never uses) and is an obedient horse...but to this day, he doesn't like me and I (in return, having long since become disgusted by his attitude) don't like him. At rare moments I'll ride him...and neither of us enjoy it. 

I ride for the enjoyment of my horse's company. Not to get somewhere, not to show or compete, but just because I enjoy being with some horses - Lilly, Mia, Bandit, Cowboy. But I've met plenty of horses I don't enjoy - just like humans. I just don't like everyone, two legs or four!

That said, I didn't particularly like Bandit when we started. He was 7 when he came here and had hundreds (thousands?) of miles of riding in the open country of the Navajo reservation. He had done plenty of 20-30 mile rides...in open country, and he expected to be able to see everything. One cannot, in the southern Arizona desert. And he was not accustomed to paved roads and neighborhoods, which are a big part of my riding world.

There were other issues as well, but at the 6 month mark I would have sold him (if anyone wanted him) without a backward glance. I swapped Mia for him on 16 May 2015, so it has now been just over a year. His true personality is just starting to show.

He's #3 of 3 in the pecking order, but he's also the horse the others hide behind when anything goes wrong. At the first sign of trouble, they want BANDIT to decide for them. And if all 3 are concerned about something on the trail, the other horses wait for Bandit & I to decide. We've had to start chaining the corral gates shut again - like Mia, he is the corral's Houdini. Like Mia, he will sometimes spin without warning, although unlike Mia, he won't continue to spin his emotions ever higher.

It all makes buying a horse tough. They can act one way at their home, another at their new home, and can be very different after 6-12 months.

I've never had a PPE done. Bandit might well have big problems someday with his legs, given that he used his front left leg tilted 30 degrees out when I got him. We were concerned about Trooper's vision, but his eye infection has cleared up...for now. But Appy's are prone to moon blindness.

I guess it becomes something of a gut call - do you think you and the horse will ever 'click' and become a team, and how much are you willing to work to get there? *It is tough when one has no idea if the horse will be a "Trooper" and never click for you, or a "Bandit" who will grow on you, or a "Mia" whom you click with immediately but who won't really be capable of becoming what you want in a horse!*

PS - I'll add this: If I start feeling like I'm getting in a fight with my horse, I notice my horse often responds by fighting harder. It is as if a "win-lose" approach is sensed by the horse and the horse doesn't want to "lose" either. I'm also not real eager to find out if all horses buck or rear. I consider learning how to "trick" your horse, or how to seek a mutually acceptable compromise, a HUGE part of becoming a horseman. It won't always work, of course, but the riders I admire are the ones who get the horse to do what they want thru conniving trickery (or, to make it sound better, a combination of "_This will profit you not_" with "_Quiet Persistence_). I'd much rather learn how to get a horse thinking what I want is what they want too than learn how to stick on a bucking horse!


----------



## Avna

Elle, there's a horse listed for sale on a local fb group, this is his description:

"$1700. Quarter Horse possibly Morgan cross gelding. 17 years. 
The good: light and responsive, moves off legs, seat or reins, departs at the canter on the correct lead, loves kids, UTD on feet, teeth and Vaccines. 
The bad: Cinchy, takes time and understanding the saddle. We have had the chiropractor out and it's not painful. Would do best in a small herd or stall/turnout. Not aggressive, just not confident. 
The BEST, once saddle he is an amazing horse! Kid, husband, cousin who has never ridden safe! Has been used for years as a kids camp horse.

This boy needs a special forever home. He means a lot to me and he deserves the best."

He's a nice looking chestnut with a star and snip. Kind of average-looking with a kind eye. He's so close to me (like half an hour away), I could go take a ride on him if you want. If you are interested I'll send you the contact info.


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## ShirtHotTeez

JMO. Too expensive for the age. 'The bad' would be dealbreaker.


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## Avna

ShirtHotTeez said:


> JMO. Too expensive for the age. 'The bad' would be dealbreaker.


You could get ten good years out of a sound horse that age. In this area you won't find a horse under 2K which doesn't have something about it to lower the price. 

And without meeting the horse it's hard to tell whether the cinchy thing is insurmountably awful or just an idiosyncrasy. 

There's an old ranch horse now a lesson horse at my teacher's barn who, if you grab the loose cinch and jerk it up hard, he has a panic attack and actually has fallen down in cross ties. He was my first lesson horse there, so I was warned to cinch him up gradually, walk him in a circle between tightenings etc. So I did that, and he never, ever, even twitched an ear over it, for me. 

So, wouldn't be a deal breaker if everything else was good.


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## elle1959

Thank you everyone. I'm not deliberately ignoring anything, either here nor in private messages. It seems I've come down with the flu and I'm achy, fevered and miserable. I did not go out to visit Charlie today and I'll be lucky if I'm able tomorrow. I will be back here and answering all my messages, too, once I am feeling better.


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## Avna

elle1959 said:


> Thank you everyone. I'm not deliberately ignoring anything, either here nor in private messages. It seems I've come down with the flu and I'm achy, fevered and miserable. I did not go out to visit Charlie today and I'll be lucky if I'm able tomorrow. I will be back here and answering all my messages, too, once I am feeling better.


:sad: get well soon!


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## EponaLynn

So sorry to hear you're ill, I had it in April and had to travel (fly and attend an important interview) with it. It's was miserable.

Feel better soon!


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## knightrider

So sorry. I hope you feel better soon.


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## jaydee

Hope you feel better soon. Put your feet up and take it easy!!


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## elle1959

Thanks, everyone. My fever broke last night and Advil is keeping the sore throat at a manageable level. I feel better, and I may be able to get out to see Charlie today for a short period of time. Not going to push myself, though, but I'd like to see him if I can.


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## elle1959

Got out to ride Charlie for about an hour and a half. He is now afraid to go to any of the corners of the arena. I mostly let him have his head, making his own decisions about where not to go. We only had to circle a few times. 

He's still not great about going where I want him to go. He does better on the full turns when I use my eyes and seat to help him get around. When I tip his nose with the reins, he wants to turn 180* and head in the other direction. Getting him to do a 90* turn is difficult. Getting him to stay at the rail is also difficult since he speeds up when I apply inside leg. I just tried a little of this and that today to see what I could get out of him. He's got the training; I just don't think anyone has asked much of him in a long time so he prefers to do what he wants.


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## evilamc

Thats great that you felt better and got to ride!

One thing I'll say, imo, since you're already having trouble with the gate thing I wouldn't let him make his own decisions. I think at this point in your guys relationship you need to establish YOU are the leader. You need to give him direction, show him he WONT get hurt when he goes where you ask and then he'll grow trust in you to go where ever you ask him to. Hes looking for things to spook at if you're just letting him do as he pleases, give him a job to do in the arena


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## elle1959

evilamc said:


> Thats great that you felt better and got to ride!
> 
> One thing I'll say, imo, since you're already having trouble with the gate thing I wouldn't let him make his own decisions. I think at this point in your guys relationship you need to establish YOU are the leader. You need to give him direction, show him he WONT get hurt when he goes where you ask and then he'll grow trust in you to go where ever you ask him to. Hes looking for things to spook at if you're just letting him do as he pleases, give him a job to do in the arena


It won't last for long; this is part of the way my trainer is dealing with his gate sour issues. It's working far better than my fighting him all the time worked-- which I did because I thought exactly as you just said, that I need to establish dominance, whereas she wanted me to get him to the point at which turning away from the gate is his own idea-- so we're not upsetting that apple cart again just yet. However, we'll soon start establishing that I ask and he does. I will work with my trainer on that, as well.


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## evilamc

Well good  Glad you have a plan then!


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## jaydee

Glad you're feeling better
I suppose you just have to decide if you want a project horse or a ready made one
He doesn't sound as if he does anything scary so he might not take as long to get sorted as you previously thought
One of the tried and tested British ways to deal with a horse that 'naps' if you have the patience is to just sit there (where it parks itself) and let it get bored and then insist that it stays there a bit longer when it does decide its going to move on


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## Whinnie

A lot of Charlie's actions sound like resistance to me rather than fear. Resistance at listening to you and doing as you ask. Only you can decide if you would want to keep working on it because it is anybody's guess as to how long it would take to work out the kinks.


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## elle1959

I don't think he's fearful, either. I think that he's just used to bumbling along in the trail string and he doesn't really like being asked to do things right now, because no one has asked him to do anything else in a very long time. Hopefully next week I'll be able to spend more time with him and can work with my trainer on how to get him to be more willing. If we can get past this-- or at least see improvement-- in a day or three, I think he'll be okay. 

The frustrating thing about having him on a trial is that I think we need to build up a relationship where he trusts me. He did nicker to me today as I approached his paddock, which made me feel happy. When I was out in Florida riding Gracie, I felt like it took the whole week of riding for 3 hours a day to just begin to feel as though she and I were working as a team. I wish I had 3 hours a day right now to spend with Charlie, but I have to take what I can in this short stretch of time and just see how far down that road we can get.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Just gonna leave this right here...

Trail Horse - Missouri Foxtrotter Gelding

Beautiful Black Missour Foxtrotter Mare

excellent horse


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## Whinnie

I have heard from several people that the adjustment period between horse and rider can take up to a year. I know in my case that has been true. Kind of like any relationship, I suppose. Expectations vs reality, then learning to work together.


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## Avna

Whinnie said:


> I have heard from several people that the adjustment period between horse and rider can take up to a year. I know in my case that has been true. Kind of like any relationship, I suppose. Expectations vs reality, then learning to work together.


I know that I feel I am just at the beginning of my relationship with my horse, after 9 months. It can't be rushed. I feel it growing like water seeping from a hidden spring, very quiet and hard to detect. 

I don't know how relevant this is, but social animals which have their groups combined, like two herds of sheep, or even chickens, take a minimum of a year to blend. I've observed this many times. Even then, if pressure is put on them they separate into their original groups.


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## elle1959

Yes, I'm sure it takes longer than a week or two. I'm just hoping that the beginnings of something might happen because that will make it easier to decide what to do. 

I was feeling pretty rotten all day but had run out of flyspray yesterday so went to the feedstore for more and then went to spray Charlie down. He nickered at me when i walked toward him, which made me feel pretty happy. I didn't have it in me to tack him up and ride, so I sprayed him and turned him out for a bit in the smaller of the two arenas. I just hung out there with him for a bit. He didn't want to be caught afterwards, and who can blame him? I lured him with some treats (the only reason I would still give them other than just the occasional fun thing) and led him to the center of the arena before giving them, then I haltered him up and took him back to his paddock.


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## ShirtHotTeez

Its sounding to me like he is showing potential. Good luck. If you feel you need more time ask for an extra weeks trial. They can only say yes or no!! And/or you can use the rusty training/gate sour to get the price reduced.


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## elle1959

Just thought I'd share a picture of his ornery self. This is from yesterday, when he was turned out on our small arena.


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## Celeste

Have you thought about asking the owners to extend the trial period for two extra weeks? I suspect that they would go along with it if they realize that it is either that or lose the sale. I think you will know whether you can work with him by then. If you reject him at that point, at least he has been ridden and should be more valuable to the owner.


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## Zexious

He sure is handsome!
Hopefully things work out well~


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## elle1959

Celeste said:


> Have you thought about asking the owners to extend the trial period for two extra weeks? I suspect that they would go along with it if they realize that it is either that or lose the sale. I think you will know whether you can work with him by then. If you reject him at that point, at least he has been ridden and should be more valuable to the owner.


I haven't, yet. I've been staying in touch with his owner and letting her know the good, bad and ugly as we move forward. Being sick has kept me away from the barn more than I would have liked, so if I can't decide by the end of next week that would be another argument for an extra week or so. I want to get my instructor out next week so that we can start working together on some of his other issues-- specifically not wanting to go where he's pointed. I can see that one taking some time; it's all mixed in with the gate sour thing as he tends to turn in the direction of the gate, but not always. It may be one of those things were it takes a few weeks of consistent riding to work through. We'll see. I sure like him, otherwise.


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## EponaLynn

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Just gonna leave this right here...
> 
> Trail Horse - Missouri Foxtrotter Gelding
> 
> Beautiful Black Missour Foxtrotter Mare
> 
> excellent horse


Drafty, I like the looks of that first gelding!


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## DraftyAiresMum

EponaLynn said:


> Drafty, I like the looks of that first gelding!


Right?! I've had my eye on him for a while now. Gaited horses don't sell very quickly up here. Not because they're not good horses, but simply because people prefer their QHs and paints. He looks like a good, solid little using horse. And I love his name. :lol:


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## bsms

I hope you realize TRUE "bonding" takes place via taking and posting lots of pictures. No carrot stick can ever build a bond the way a digital camera can! And please do not ask me how many thousands of horse pictures are on my hard drive...:wink:


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## DraftyAiresMum

Another one just listed yesterday. Not sure if he's maybe too tall for what you want. 

Tennessee Walker Gelding


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## elle1959

I aim to please. Here are a couple more pictures. You can see his brand in one of them.

The brand is a heart with a cross atop it. Supposedly he hails from Oklahoma, and there is a Cross Heart Ranch there, but they don't have a website so I can't look at pictures of their horses to compare. I have done searches on Google, to no avail.


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## elle1959

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Another one just listed yesterday. Not sure if he's maybe too tall for what you want.
> 
> Tennessee Walker Gelding


Thanks. I'm mainly looking at non-gaited horses right now, since I'm taking lessons on one and my instructor doesn't know much about gaited horses. I've sort of gradually convinced myself that this is what I want, and I think I am over my "must have gaited" phase, since I didn't break anything when I had that fall last year.


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## DraftyAiresMum

LOL! I'm more looking at horses that fit your other criteria (trail, arena, safe, sane, etc). A lot of them really just happen to be gaited (and on the cheaper end of the spectrum). :lol:


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## elle1959

DraftyAiresMum said:


> LOL! I'm more looking at horses that fit your other criteria (trail, arena, safe, sane, etc). A lot of them really just happen to be gaited (and on the cheaper end of the spectrum). :lol:


Thanks  I have nothing against them, that's for sure. Just trying to keep things simple, and the gaited ones here tend to be pricey, so that's another reason I'm starting to shy away from them.


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## DraftyAiresMum

See, opposite around here. Preacher, that first MFT I posted yesterday? If he were a paint with the same training, he'd probably be $3500-4000. That last gelding? If he was a QH, he'd probably be $2500-3000, even at his age.


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## elle1959

I think we have lots of wealthy older folk in the foothills around here who are mainly interested in finding a horse they won't fall off of. That's the original reason I wanted a gaited horse, though I am anything but wealthy. The market drives the price up here. Maybe you and I should start a business selling gaited horses from Arizona to wealthy Californians, LOL.


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## DraftyAiresMum

elle1959 said:


> I think we have lots of wealthy older folk in the foothills around here who are mainly interested in finding a horse they won't fall off of. That's the original reason I wanted a gaited horse, though I am anything but wealthy. The market drives the price up here. Maybe you and I should start a business selling gaited horses from Arizona to wealthy Californians, LOL.


I've got the truck...just need a trailer...and start-up capital! :lol: :-D


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## elle1959

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I've got the truck...just need a trailer...and start-up capital! :lol: :-D


I'll get right on that


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## elle1959

I went out yesterday and saddled up The White One for a test drive. He did his usual five-ten minutes in the arena okay and then decided, as usual, that he was done. I struggled with him to get him to understand that he needs to do what I ask, and I'm not sure I made much progress. We circled when he acted up and it didn't matter, we'd get to the next 90* turn and he'd do a 180* turn or circle in the opposite direction, and we'd circle again. We did this for about 25 minutes and I waited until he had done a fairly neutral walk toward the center of the arena for me then stopped him and dismounted. 

Out in the parking lot by the barn I saw a couple of gals on their horses and asked if they'd mind taking ten minutes with me to see how he does on the trail. One agreed, so I mounted up at the trailhead and discovered something new, but not surprising. He's also barn sour. He immediately turned and headed for the barn, and I couldn't keep him away from it. I ended up having to circle him, HARD, at the barn door and we almost got kicked by someone else's horse who was tied up at the barn door. Luckily, that horse didn't connect. After a series of very hard circles I finally got him headed back for the trail head and, lo and behold, once he saw a path he could follow he put his head down and walked forward just like the good boy he was advertised to be. He decided to trot when we circled back, but I checked him and he behaved. 

Since I have been sick, his owner has offered me another week to trial him. My instructor is coming out today and, if we can't figure out a way to get him paying more attention I'm going to have to seriously think about whether he's going to work out. Someone yesterday told me to take a crop out with me and whap him a good one when he starts with his hissy fit. Though I've seen no evidence that he's willing to dismount me, I'm concerned that he'd try if I took it that far. On the other hand, he might straighten out. I will see what my instructor wants to try next.

ETA: I did work him in the round pen yesterday before we rode, and he was much more willing there than the last time. I paid more attention to my body language and it made a big difference. So at least one of us made some progress!


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## DraftyAiresMum

How much do they have this horse advertised for? Even in California, I would think even $2K would be too much to ask for him.


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## elle1959

Far too much for all of this, that's for sure.


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## KigerQueen

for a horse with all the issues he had i would pay no more than 800. all my horses are 800 or less and they have better training and manners than that.


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## Skyseternalangel

He doesn't sound fully broke to me... just kind of trail broke I guess? And what I mean by that is load up and hack out on a trail.


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## elle1959

Well, well. Had a lesson on Charlie today in the arena. He was a different horse today. Very briefly fought me, then settled down and cooperated beautifully. 

What was different? Mainly she had me tighten up the reins. I'd been riding her lesson horse in a shank, and Charlie is in a snaffle. Also, we fought hard yesterday, and I won. Interesting that it can go so wrong on one day and so right the next. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## KigerQueen

good! hopefully he works out!


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## Whinnie

Just a thought. Does he ever do anything on the ground that needs to be corrected? My mare can be very cooperative for weeks on end, then she starts to get pushy and I have to do the I'mgonnakillyou back up correction on the ground. She is always humble and respectful on the ground and under saddle after that for quite awhile (until the next time).


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## elle1959

He is utterly perfect on the ground. Not pushy, always respectful, calm and laid back. Not a single problem there except the occasional dive for grass, which I don't allow.


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## EponaLynn

elle1959 said:


> Well, well. Had a lesson on Charlie today in the arena. He was a different horse today. Very briefly fought me, then settled down and cooperated beautifully.


Perhaps it's just figuring out how to do it, so it works well for him, and then he will.


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## elle1959

EponaLynn said:


> Perhaps it's just figuring out how to do it, so it works well for him, and then he will.


I sure hope so. I think it's been a variety of factors. He's in a new place, he's got a rider who is a) demanding things he hasn't done in a while and b) not as finessed as perhaps other demanding riders have been. He's bound to be missing his former home right now, too. This is, I guess, the awful thing about taking them on trial. They're living creatures, not machines, and of course they are going to respond differently to being in a different situation. 

I do know that, for as much as I've fought with him over the past week, I've not once had the feeling he was trying to dismount me or in any other way display any meanness. He gets a lot of credit for that.


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## elle1959

Skyseternalangel said:


> He doesn't sound fully broke to me... just kind of trail broke I guess? And what I mean by that is load up and hack out on a trail.


He's quite broke, just doesn't want to use what he knows because he hasn't had to do it in a long time. His MO is to comply quite brilliantly and efficiently until he decides he's finished, and then he just wants to head for the gate. In fairness, though, he did not head for the gate at all today. He's getting better about that.


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## ShirtHotTeez

. . . and take into account he may not be quite fit so is working muscles that have been on holiday for a while 

I think Charlie is shaping up nicely for you. Are you quietly encouraged?


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## elle1959

ShirtHotTeez said:


> . . . and take into account he may not be quite fit so is working muscles that have been on holiday for a while
> 
> I think Charlie is shaping up nicely for you. Are you quietly encouraged?


A wee bit. I want him to work out for me. He's so sweet in every way beyond his aversion to work. I know my instructor still really likes him for me, and even more so given that he failed to act like an idiot today while she was there, despite all the horror she read about him on Facebook yesterday


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## stevenson

I wanted a gaited horse.. I'm in sunny CA, but far from wealthy. Sure wish I could afford one ! I even looked at some advertised out of state, but I would be to afraid of getting a crazed, lame, sick animal and not what was advertised, plus shipping is far to expensive.


----------



## stevenson

Elle he looks cute. hope he will work for you . If you do get him, make sure they give you proof of the vaccines, such as receipts from a Vet or if they give their own injections and do not keep the portion that has the lot number etc on it, then you need get him vaccinated.


----------



## elle1959

stevenson said:


> Elle he looks cute. hope he will work for you . If you do get him, make sure they give you proof of the vaccines, such as receipts from a Vet or if they give their own injections and do not keep the portion that has the lot number etc on it, then you need get him vaccinated.


Luckily, I have this already, since my barn requires it for him to be boarded there. He's good to go, at least on this score.


----------



## evilamc

stevenson said:


> I wanted a gaited horse.. I'm in sunny CA, but far from wealthy. Sure wish I could afford one ! I even looked at some advertised out of state, but I would be to afraid of getting a crazed, lame, sick animal and not what was advertised, plus shipping is far to expensive.


Ha if you're serious about a gaited horse, I'd highly recommend the dealers I bought from in VA. They ship all over the country even to Canada! I was lucky enough to be able to meet Jax in person twice before buying, but when they're going to sell a horse sight unseen they make a LONG video showing the horse in all kinds of situations and they welcome PPE's to be done.


----------



## Whinnie

elle1959 said:


> He's quite broke, just doesn't want to use what he knows because he hasn't had to do it in a long time. His MO is to comply quite brilliantly and efficiently until he decides he's finished, and then he just wants to head for the gate. In fairness, though, he did not head for the gate at all today. He's getting better about that.



I used to refer to my mare as "The twenty minute horse" because when I was first breaking her in I would end on a really good note which usually happened about 20 minutes into the session. When I started wanting to extend the sessions, she would start resisting because she thought she was done. It took varying the lengths of rides to get that 20 minute limit out of her head. Horses are very tied to routine.


----------



## elle1959

Whinnie said:


> I used to refer to my mare as "The twenty minute horse" because when I was first breaking her in I would end on a really good note which usually happened about 20 minutes into the session. When I started wanting to extend the sessions, she would start resisting because she thought she was done. It took varying the lengths of rides to get that 20 minute limit out of her head. Horses are very tied to routine.



Ha! Charlie would be "The ten minute horse," then, since that's about as long as it takes him to decide he's finished. 

Someone mentioned he may be using muscles he's not used to using. i know he's been used on the trail string, but I wonder if I'm asking him to use muscles that may be stiff or sore after not being used for a while? That could account for his reluctance to continue and could also be a factor in the fact that he didn't misbehave yesterday, if his body is getting accustomed to the work again. 

In any case, I didn't see him today. I had too many things to do, so took a little break from the barn. I'll try to get out tomorrow to ride him.


----------



## Whinnie

Especially if you are bending him and doing circles, he could be very uncomfortable until he gets used to it. Even if he is lazy, he can learn to work if he knows he has to. I think he may have gotten away with a lot in the past and doesn't want to go back to school. The more routine the better. My mare can get a little grouchy and resistant in the spring but she always comes around when the routine is established.


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## bsms

FWIW, Bandit can handle about 10-15 minutes max of working circles and bends. Then we either go somewhere or he gets grumpy. I think he just gets tired and wants straight lines for a while. We can go out on the street for 5-10 minutes, and he'll then be good about some more arena work.


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## Golden Horse

elle1959 said:


> I do know that, for as much as I've fought with him over the past week, I've not once had the feeling he was trying to dismount me or in any other way display any meanness. He gets a lot of credit for that.


OK, this means a huge amount.....

My story with Fergie, I knew she was going to be mine about 4 strides into my first ride, it was like sitting on a big fluffy cloud, and something just yelled MINE. I knew that she was a bit of a stretch for me, and over the last couple of months felt like a BIG stretch...BUT

When I was sitting on her 2 weeks ago, shaking all over and crying my eyes out because she had done the most almighty spook, my trainer is pointing out that with all the issues we have had she never once has tried to dump me, and there have been times when she so easily could have. There isn't a mean bone in Fergies body, and with everything we have been through, she has actually taken care of me...

If you have been able to ride him through this testing time and you feel safe on him, it means a lot. I'm glad that you have another week, remember that the perfect horse for you may not start as perfect, you may have to put the final polish on.......at the end of the day though, behaviour issues can be worked on, temperament they are kind of born with.


----------



## elle1959

evilamc said:


> Ha if you're serious about a gaited horse, I'd highly recommend the dealers I bought from in VA. They ship all over the country even to Canada! I was lucky enough to be able to meet Jax in person twice before buying, but when they're going to sell a horse sight unseen they make a LONG video showing the horse in all kinds of situations and they welcome PPE's to be done.


 @stevenson if it helps, I was thinking about having DraftyAriesMum do some horse shopping for me and I got shipping quotes in the $600 range for Prescott to Sacramento. That was reasonable given the price difference between the two places.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

elle1959 said:


> @stevenson if it helps, I was thinking about having DraftyAriesMum do some horse shopping for me and I got shipping quotes in the $600 range for Prescott to Sacramento. That was reasonable given the price difference between the two places.


I'd be happy to! just let me know. 

This guy keeps popping up and I really like him. Don't know if he's a little older than you want, though.

http://prescott.craigslist.org/grd/5580857943.html


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## elle1959

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I'd be happy to! just let me know.
> 
> This guy keeps popping up and I really like him. Don't know if he's a little older than you want, though.
> 
> Safe Family horse, no spook- traffic safe used in C-Bar movie!


What a cutie!


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

elle1959 said:


> What a cutie!


Isn't he?! That movie was a big deal around here a couple of years ago. 

C-Bar


----------



## Whinnie

Golden Horse said:


> OK, this means a huge amount.....
> 
> My story with Fergie, I knew she was going to be mine about 4 strides into my first ride, it was like sitting on a big fluffy cloud, and something just yelled MINE. I knew that she was a bit of a stretch for me, and over the last couple of months felt like a BIG stretch...BUT
> 
> When I was sitting on her 2 weeks ago, shaking all over and crying my eyes out because she had done the most almighty spook, my trainer is pointing out that with all the issues we have had she never once has tried to dump me, and there have been times when she so easily could have. There isn't a mean bone in Fergies body, and with everything we have been through, she has actually taken care of me...
> 
> If you have been able to ride him through this testing time and you feel safe on him, it means a lot. I'm glad that you have another week, remember that the perfect horse for you may not start as perfect, you may have to put the final polish on.......at the end of the day though, behaviour issues can be worked on, temperament they are kind of born with.



That IS huge!


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## elle1959

Went to the barn today after giving Charlie a day off. Pulled him out, groomed him, worked him in the round pen (he was good), tacked him up and took him out to the arena. We walked around the arena a couple of times. He was mostly good. After a couple of times he decided he might test me a bit, fine, I just stopped him, then put him into circles and then we headed back the way I wanted him and he'd go. No stress, no worry, just "whoa, let's circle, now let's go." We did a little bit of that, then I managed to get him to the center of the arena and stopped at the spot I wanted him. I dismounted there and we walked on out. 

After that I turned him out for a bit, but he was pretty chill so I caught him and gave him a quick hose down. He likes to lay in poop, I guess, since he always has poop on him somewhere when I come for him. 

After the hose down I took him out behind the barn and let him graze while I sat in a chair with his lead rope in my lap, his prize for being a good boy. He enjoyed that. Ten minutes or so of that and I had to head back home, so I sprayed him down for flies and put him away. 

I'm starting to think this will work. I just need patience.


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## Rainaisabelle

Sounds like a nice afternoon


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## Acadianartist

That sounds great elle! Those are the moments that make it all worth it for me. The quiet times when you're both content and just enjoying each other's company. It sounds like you're both adjusting well!


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## jaydee

We often don't give horses enough credit for their ability to express their 'free will' in the way they think. Most horses won't mind who rides them, the only difference in how they go is decided by the ability of the rider but we were really surprised when my son went to college and we had a very nice and capable young woman come here with the intention to ride his horse while he was away. I would never in a million years put Honey even half way up the list of being smart or sensitive but no way was she going to be ridden by that person. She started out just refusing to move and then when I suggested she get tough with her she set off broncing around the manège. After a few weeks of it she gave up, maybe if she'd been her sole carer things might have improved but she didn't have time for that. She's never done anything like it with us though she goes better for my son than she does for me or DH she's not a naughty horse


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## Whinnie

Elle, I think he likes you!


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## elle1959

I think he's starting to settle into his "new" life, and has gained some respect for me in the round pen and in the saddle. I'm also showing him that I'm willing to meet him halfway, that we can have a shorter session with less fighting and more redirection/refocusing. I think these things are going to be important keys to our relationship, going forward. 

I have no intention of trying to take him outside the arena again anytime soon; I want to know that he's focused and listening before we run the risk of another barn sour incident. I also believe that it is not all him; as I rider I have not yet learned what *he* needs to be ridden effectively, and that's going to take a lot of the two of us practicing together, with and without my instructor helping. And isn't that why I'm buying this horse in the first place? I fully believe that I could trailer him anywhere and put him on a trail (where there is no barn to run to) and he'll go out fine. Not worried about that part of this. The part that I've been missing in all of these horses I've looked at is the "make me a better rider" part. Charlie might just be the one to do that for me.


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## walkinthewalk

it takes a certain type of horse to be willing to help the rider along.

The horse in my avatar never made a mistake. He was perfect for me but he was not a horse too many people could ride. That's because he had no patience whatsoever for inexperience.

He would freeze when children came close to him because he didn't know what to do with them. He delighted in giving most adults (except his professional caregivers) the stink eye, simply because he didn't want anyone around him that didn't know what they were doing.

This is the same horse that I could point, say "pick your spot to get a bath" and he would stand without a halter for the entire wet down/shampoo/scrub/rinse/squeegee process. When I said "you're done", he would turn and walk back to his stall with no help from me.

I have a feeling Diva was a lot like Duke. 

Hopefully Charlie does turn out to be the patient horse that is willing to go back to square one, when he doesn't need to, to help his new person become a better rider.


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## horseluvr2524

I am super happy that Charlie seems to be working out, Elle. I really think for most people, unless you are 6 years old and need the 20yr old babysitter, I really think its a good idea for people to get a horse that is just a little bit tougher than they wanted. Not unmanageable or dangerous, but just a tad above the current skill level. Because in the end it really is about improving as a rider, no matter what kind of riding you do, you need good skills! And there is always a way to improve when it comes to horses.

I know that I have talked about my mother and her horse for her, but this is what she did. She was completely new, and Belle's way of testing her was to turn in a constant circle until mom asked her to do something properly! lol. (I never can get that frustrated look on her face out of my head lol).

Hopefully Charlie is just the horse to challenge you, but well within your limits. He sure is a cutie!


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## elle1959

Went out yesterday and just hung out with him. I turned him out, sat by the turnout area so we could just be together. Gave him a few treats and a handful of grass. Then I gave him a quick bath and let him graze a bit before spraying him for flies and putting him back in his stall. 

Here are some pictures I took yesterday.


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## Folly

He's a very handsome fellow - I hope it works out! One benefit of the light colored coat is that everyone will be much cooler in the summer  My horse is black, and my friend's is light grey/white - her horse doesn't get nearly as sweaty just standing around as mine does! I actually welcome the summer fade, since it will be a tad cooler for her. You can just feel the heat radiating off a dark horse.


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## walkinthewalk

His cute self has a very earnest look to him


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## Whinnie

I love the way he looks like he is dusted with gold. Are you keeping his name?


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## Golden Horse

elle1959 said:


> I also believe that it is not all him; as I rider I have not yet learned what *he* needs to be ridden effectively, and that's going to take a lot of the two of us practicing together, with and without my instructor helping. And isn't that why I'm buying this horse in the first place? I fully believe that I could trailer him anywhere and put him on a trail (where there is no barn to run to) and he'll go out fine. Not worried about that part of this. The part that I've been missing in all of these horses I've looked at is the "make me a better rider" part. Charlie might just be the one to do that for me.


Love this, I agree with all you say here, if you like him, and you feel safe on him, the rest you build


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## elle1959

Whinnie said:


> I love the way he looks like he is dusted with gold.


That's arena sand  

I don't have any thought about changing his name. I like Charlie for him. Open to suggestions, though


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## weeedlady

Handsome fellow. Glad things are looking up for the two of you.
_M_


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## Werecat

Yay! I hope he's the one! Speaking from experience, my horse was a bit of a challenge when I first got him, but he has made me a much better rider and horsewoman because of it. I'm happy to read things are looking up in your endeavor for your next horse!


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## Change

Methinks you're beginning to love that white boy! :-D


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## tinyliny

Are you my Mommy?


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## elle1959

Went to see Charlie this morning. As I expected, after several days of not being ridden, he wasn't too keen on doing what I asked him today. He's a good boy; struggling with a relatively inexperienced rider and I think he and I are both coming along. Right now I keep it simple and try to redirect his focus when he refuses. When I finally get him going in a straight line, he gets rewarded with a pat on the neck and after a bit of time that last straight line he gives me will be where we end our session. That's how it was today.

He really needs to be ridden daily and I need to get out to see him as often as I can. This has been a challenge, with my not feeling well this past week or so, but I'm doing the best I can.

I also have trouble getting him into the bit. Again, it's not him, it's me. I'm not experienced enough, so we went through that process a few times today and made it work. He's pretty patient with me, really. I have to give him a lot of credit.
I don't think he likes the snaffle he's in very much. His owner had him in a double-jointed bit, and I have one similar to that, so I'm going to swap it out next time and see if it works any better for him.


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## elle1959

PPE is Saturday. Decided to buy him. He is steadily improving, was very good today and I'm feeling pretty good about him. Hopefully the search has ended. 


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## ShirtHotTeez

All the best for the PPE. Thats terrific


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## Acadianartist

Yay! Glad you think he's the one. Fingers crossed for the PPE!


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## elle1959

Thanks, everyone. I'm looking forward to moving on with my life


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## jaydee

Good luck


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## EponaLynn

elle1959 said:


> PPE is Saturday. Decided to buy him. He is steadily improving, was very good today and I'm feeling pretty good about him. Hopefully the search has ended.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So excited for you, I have a good vibe about Charlie for you even though I loved the look of PJ.

Any horse you get will take some work and he sounds reasonable.


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## Change

Yay!!!!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

While it is so much fun when you come across the horse that is perfect right out of the box, there is something so very rewarding in taking those who have a few dings and scratches to them and making them better riding horses for having known you. 

Congratulations!


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## Skyseternalangel

I am waiting anxiously for tomorrow's results!


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## elle1959

Thanks, everyone. I went to the barn early today, since it's going to be hot, but there were so many other people there trying to beat the heat that I couldn't get a roundpen free to work him in and I had a limited amount of time. So I hand grazed him a little bit and then put him back in his stall. 

Looking forward to the PPE tomorrow; I know he probably does have a few melanomas but I'm not going to let that be an issue. I'm more concerned right now about something that looks like an infection in one of his ears. We'd noticed that he doesn't like having his right ear touched and finally got a look in there and there's something going on, so I'm going to make sure we get that looked at and treatment started before the vet leaves tomorrow.


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## DraftyAiresMum

If he doesn't work out, this pretty little mare just came up on Craigslist near me: APHA Palamino Paint Mare :lol:


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## elle1959

She's very cute!


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## ShirtHotTeez

If she is not far away Elle, go check her out anyway


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## elle1959

ShirtHotTeez said:


> If she is not far away Elle, go check her out anyway


She's in Arizona.


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## DraftyAiresMum

ShirtHotTeez said:


> If she is not far away Elle, go check her out anyway


Not sure exactly where elle is, but she's got to be at least 500-600 miles away...probably more. :lol: I figure if she's willing to go to Florida to look at a couple of horses, Arizona is much closer. Lol


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## ShirtHotTeez

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Not sure exactly where elle is, but she's got to be at least 500-600 miles away...probably more. :lol: I figure if she's willing to go to Florida to look at a couple of horses, Arizona is much closer. Lol


That's why you put the ad up Drafty :icon_rolleyes: lol


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## DraftyAiresMum

ShirtHotTeez said:


> That's why you put the ad up Drafty :icon_rolleyes: lol


She was actually thinking about having me look at some horses down here if Charlie hadn't worked out because our prices are better than hers on similarly-trained horses, plus shipping wouldn't add too much more to the price.


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## Change

And my sister could handle the shipping!


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## elle1959

All true, but not necessary because his vet check went really well. I'm really excited about him becoming mine 


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## egrogan

Woohooo!!!


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## Golden Horse

:loveshower::loveshower::thumbsup::thumbsup::cheers::cheers:

Congratulations


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## weeedlady

Happy for you *Elle* You've had a long and arduous journey to horse ownership. Glad things are finally going right for you!:apple:

_M_


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## ShirtHotTeez

Congratulations :thumbsup: :cheers: :happydance: :winetime: 

:cheers: :winetime: :runpony:

You will find you feel totally differently about him now he is yours. So happy for you.


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## EponaLynn

SO happy for you :gallop::gallop::gallop:


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## Horsnaround64

Congrats. So happy for you


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## Werecat

Congratulation!!!


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## Change

Welcome to the family, Charlie! You're in a great place with Elle!


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## Whinnie

We will all be waiting to see pictures of you riding Charlie. Your confidence will grow each time you hit a glitch and work it out. He will help you become a better, more confident rider and you will help him become a better horse. Congratulations!


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## elle1959

ShirtHotTeez said:


> Congratulations :thumbsup: :cheers: :happydance: :winetime:
> 
> :cheers: :winetime: :runpony:
> 
> You will find you feel totally differently about him now he is yours. So happy for you.


I've been feeling like he's mine for about a week or so now, ever since we worked through that gate sour issue and I realized he just needs my patience and steady work. He's so sweet, quiet and calm, I am just in love with the big guy. Just have to pay for him now!


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## Change

Guess it's about time to change your avatar. No more question marks!


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## elle1959

Change said:


> Guess it's about time to change your avatar. No more question marks!


True, and done!


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## Whinnie

What a nice picture of Chuck! :wink:


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## elle1959

We negotiated his price; I asked low, she came back with a figure close to what I wanted to pay. His owner works right up the street from where I board so she and I will meet at the barn tomorrow at 4:00 to settle up. Then he will be mine


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## Folly

So happy for you!! He seems like a gem. Will be fun putting the final polish on.


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## evilamc

Yay grats!!


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## SwissMiss

Wohoo! Congrats and many happy rides together!


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## Change

The best thing about a white horse is that you never know what color your horse will be when you arrive at the barn! ;-) They are the epitome of 'a horse of a different color!'

It's okay - I've discovered that my 'black' horse is brown this morning (it rained last night -- mudbug!).


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## Rainaisabelle

Whooo hoo !!!! So happy for you! Been such a journey can't wait to see more !


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## Acadianartist

That's so awesome elle! Enjoy Charlie! So glad it all worked out!


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## horseluvr2524

@elle1959

I missed a lot! I was gone on vacation. I am so glad that you found a horse you can grow with, Elle!

:happydance:


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