# Training an older dog to herd?



## horseluvr2524

Hello farmers! :wave:

I had an idea in my mind, keep in mind it is theoretical and may never happen. Do you think it is possible to train an older dog of mixed breed to herd, specifically goats or sheep? The dog I am thinking of is a mutt but took strongly to the side of German Shepherd with a bit of husky for the curled tail and lab for the stocky stature. She has absolutely no retrieval desire or instinct (my dogs don't play fetch.... at all. no matter what I do :lol, but she loves to chase (most dogs do). I realize that a desire to chase is not necessarily a desire to herd. This dog unfortunately has killed 2 cats in the past (it absolutely broke my heart and I was mad at her for a long time), but thinking back to the situation I don't believe that it was intentional. She was trying to carry them around their midsection and was too rough, as the cats had no external wounds but died from internal injuries as a result of the attempt to carry them 

I saw her do this with a rabbit. She caught a wild baby bunny, but didn't kill it or eat it just ran up to me and put it at my feet. I was terrified thinking she had killed it, but it was only playing dead. No breathing problems or anything, no internal crushing like with the cats. I picked it up and held it for a minute checking it was ok before it jumped out of my hands and ran away (dogs hot on its tail, it got safely under the shed).

This dog is very obedient and quick to respond to commands. Recall is OK, not great. So what do you think, can an older mixed breed dog with this kind of history learn to herd? Or is this better left to young herding pups? I'm betting the answer is no, it is most likely not possible.

Keep in mind that this is theoretical. If I did get sheep or goats I would most likely fence them securely, dog and coyote safe. And if they did have contact, it would only be under my supervision (yes I can call them off, even with cats. They are very good at the "leave it" command).


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## farmpony84

The husky in her would make me nervous. My brother has been taking his dog to sheep herding classes, she is three and he started her this summer. She's doing really well.


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## Roman

It can be done. How old is she?

You should find a dog trainer to help with the training. Help perfect the recall and everything. One thing Dakota's new owner said is that she would say "Here/Come" when she fed her dog and her dog has a good recall.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## horseluvr2524

^she's no three year old! She is 9 years old and still going strong, has puppy like energy. If I did train her to do this and it worked out, she would only be helping me move the sheep (not more than two or three) from the barn to one of the small paddocks (the property is only an acre and a 1/4, look up my previous thread on it before commenting on size). So she wouldn't even be doing any real herding, just helping nose them along and guide them at a walk or jog. She loves having a job, if we have a group go hiking and we are somewhere I can safely let her go off leash, she will scout the trail ahead, run back the whole line and check on stragglers (me, my mom is the power walker lol), and just keeps track of the group. Fantastic dog really. I think provided she isn't aggressive towards the sheep she may be able to do what I want her to do. Our other dog (her mother actually) is completely useless, unless she is babysitting babies (any kind of babies, human, cat, dog, whatever) then she is fantastic. Mother has aust. cattle dog, so that is in the prospective dog as well, I was just mentioning her predominant breeds before. I believe this dog has around 6 breeds in her lineage so the husky in her is a very small amount, only enough to cause the curled tail (comes up over her back like a husky).


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## Avna

I know this is an old post, but speaking as someone who has trained stockdogs, the answer is probably no. Herding behavior is not trained. It is innate. What you train the sheepdog to do is to herd the way YOU want him to (typically, a lot more slowly than he would prefer) and with you as senior partner. Herding dogs will herd by themselves, in fact it is pretty hard to stop them. 

If you had a 9 year old Border Collie or Kelpie, I would say, quite possibly, if they have not been forcibly taught to stay away from sheep. Those two breeds are the only two in the US which have been bred specifically to herd sheep. Your Aussie Cattle Dog has not. Hence the name. Cows require a dog who will work close and will bite if they need to. Sheep require a dog who will work far off and won't bite unless it is an extreme situation of a sheep trying to chase off the dog. 

There is a reason you don't see a lot of Golden Retrievers on the sheep trial field. Very trainable! But no instinct for the task.


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## Yogiwick

Honestly as someone who has an untrained "sheep dog" (GSD) and sheep your description of your dog scares me (herding wise!).

Our dog LOVES the cats and will herd them- he will walk over stand up on top of them and put his mouth around them (gently). He does follow the sheep but doesn't herd them (that would be discouraged anyways.) He can come in the pen with me and I can trust him but he did snap at an old ewe (he wanted her to stop and she didn't and he nicked her on the neck) unfortunately due to the location and her age she went into shock and died. He does snap at the cats sometimes and it's the same thing ("I said stop! I want to put my mouth around you and hold you here") he always is sternly scolded for that and the cats are so used to him it's not a problem. He NEVER snaps to bite, more to "grab" as part of the "hold".

We keep him away from situations where he would snap at the other sheep. He follows the horses and has gotten in trouble with that a few times.

Basically he DOES have a herding instinct (doesn't sound like your dog does at all) but it isn't strong, he doesn't have the drive to do what you are wanting to do.

German SHEPHERD Dogs ARE sheep dogs, of course, but they are not bred to do what you are picturing. Picture say a Border Collie at a show herding the sheep through the pattern. Pretty neat? yeah! Shepherds don't do that.

They are bred to keep the sheep in a set area and to guard them, they don't "drive" the way a BC does.

When my Shepherd herds he follows then (with the oh so tolerant cats at least) he will stand and stick them in his mouth. We had some issues with the horses but now he knows unless I am riding he is not to follow them (he follows in a heel position when I'm riding and no I didn't train that). Same with the sheep. It would be awfully convenient if he could herd sometimes, not that Shetland sheep are as .."agreeable" as other breeds to the concept of being bossed around! lol, but again if he wants to "go get" on he FOLLOWS it. He has not, does not, and will not circle around to cut them off, a behavior that is natural in a BC, because that's NOT the type of herding a Shepherd does.

I'm all for doing things for fun but don't see you getting anywhere with it. You own a dog that is probably part of what is sort of a sheep dog breed (though chances are there are no dogs used for that remotely close in her bloodlines) with no drive. So again, you want to do it go do it but.. "good luck". And at the end of the day she sounds "bad" as opposed to neutral, you don't want her hurting the sheep, that to me is a deal breaker for her.

Up to you, but I'd say enjoy her the way you have been or find something that doesn't involve "prey"!


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## Avna

Yep. Dog with no herding instinct but fairly strong prey drive = damaged sheep. No herding instinct and little prey drive = sheep go where they feel like. 

Sheep panic easily. Most of the death-by-herding sheep accidents I know, they broke their necks on a fence trying to run from the dog. If you don't count the five I accidentally made my dog lose in a 12,000 acre forest ... never found again. We won't count those.


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## Yogiwick

Is it bad that I laughed? Poor sheep.

Yes some sheep are more "strong willed" than others. Shetlands are known for being VERY VERY poor herding sheep lol. They don't flock well and are extremely independent and stubborn. The more docile breeds that flock better are also far flightier and even watching BC trials as a casual observer I often see sheep looking panicked even if the dog and handler are doing a good job and ease off the pressure.

For a dog with a prey drive it's an accident waiting to happen. Also, GSDs are bred for large sheep. I'm assuming your dog is pretty large.

Here's an example of natural instinct, and it doesn't need to be with sheep, ducks, people, and my boy's favorite- cats!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9Bj-YPgmzU (and I will reiterate, while my dog does show herding behaviors he does NOT act in the way shown in the video, different type of herding)


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## Avna

I used to herd Shetlands. They are perfectly okay as long as your dog stays well back, and has an excellent sense of group (because *they* don't). Good times. Little suckers are smart.


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