# I tried to like Parelli, I really did.



## palogal

Truly, I watch any trainer I can find on RFD and I always find something I can use, no matter how small. There's always something.
Until Pat Parelli and Linda. I've never found anything usable.

So I tried again today. I watched their show and I SEARCHED for something usable....nothing. I wanted to like it, I wanted to find something that wasn't completely BS. <sigh> I guess I'm a Parelli hater.


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## waresbear

Player Hater!


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## Delfina

You can find something useful by watching them..... a what NOT to do with your horse if nothing else...


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## palogal

Ain't that the truth.


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## COWCHICK77

I don't blame you...I can't either. It's a hard pill to swallow.

I was talking to a friends wife who is getting into horses and doesn't know a whole lot but is wanting to learn right, she took a couple of lessons from a "Parelli trainer" and told me she thought it was ridiculous. She has moved onto a dressage coach.


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## Jennakaaate

I did the same thing. I wanted to find something to like about them. The only thing I could find was "Uhm, weeeelll..They have an interest in horses, too. I guess." 
I think that I laughed too hard at the ferret on his face, so I couldn't really take him seriously.


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## morganarab94

Amen to that.


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## jaydee

I don't know why but certain 'trainers' (like the Parelli's) just tick me off and even if they do have something valuable to say amongst the dross I struggle to get past the irritation feeling they give me so I have to walk away


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## gypsygirl

I do feel that some can be learned for pat, linda on the other hand.....


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## usandpets

I have nothing against Pat or Linda. I do however dislike their philosophy behind their training. The introvert, extrovert, right, left brain BS. I just don't get it. 

Their overall training really isn't much different than others. Most use the same techniques. 

Occasionally I do use one or more of their seven games. The yo-yo game is good to help get the horse lighter with giving to pressure on the poll.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## its lbs not miles

palogal said:


> Truly, I watch any trainer I can find on RFD and I always find something I can use, no matter how small. There's always something.
> Until Pat Parelli and Linda. I've never found anything usable.
> 
> So I tried again today. I watched their show and I SEARCHED for something usable....nothing. I wanted to like it, I wanted to find something that wasn't completely BS. <sigh> I guess I'm a Parelli hater.


 
:lol: Don't sweat it. You're in good company :lol:


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## gunslinger

palogal said:


> Truly, I watch any trainer I can find on RFD and I always find something I can use, no matter how small. There's always something.
> Until Pat Parelli and Linda. I've never found anything usable.
> 
> So I tried again today. I watched their show and I SEARCHED for something usable....nothing. I wanted to like it, I wanted to find something that wasn't completely BS. <sigh> I guess I'm a Parelli hater.


Dang...I'm glad you said that because that's exactly what me and my wife both thought.

I haven't met many Parelli people, but the couple I have met did nothing but **** me off....told me my horse was riding me...


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## apachiedragon

I watched a clinic once that was taught by one of his original students, one of the first to become an instructor with his program. The guy actually admitted that when he was "doing Parelli" with his horses, he HID BEHIND THE BARN so no one would see him. What does THAT tell you about the program, even in the old days? The old program, before all that "horsenality" crap came about, actually had some good points if you could filter through the BS. Of course, that was pre Linda (or at east she wasn't ever seen) and it wasn't quite the snake oil circus sideshow that it is today.


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## Honeysuga

I did the same, I honestly tried to like them and their program. It seemed so cool from the outside. But after reading and watching and researching I cant find enough horsemanship through the BS to add up to all the hype. All I could find were shoddy interpretations of good techniques by a bunch of kool aid drinkers and marketing professionals. 

So Ill just keep calling my "carrot stick" a horse whacker and work on my real horsemanship skills.:rofl:

After all, Im not into "games"...


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## Saddlebag

There's an excellent youtube video on Trailier Loading but, it's not during a large venue but at a small arena with a small crowd. Here you will see Pat at his finest. It's about an hour long. He works with a horse that absolutely will not load for his owner. Pat demonstrates how he builds the horse up to the task.


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## palogal

I saw one trailer loading vid he did in which he was mounted and was allowing the horse is was riding to bite the horse he was trying to load. She was "playing the porcupine game with her teeth" I nearly puked.


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## flytobecat

I went to the clinic they had in Queen Creek recently. I don't do PP and don't know much about them, but I really enjoyed the 1st part of the clinic that focused on the 7 games. When he started talking about the horsinalities and other things it got confusing. I think he complicates things a little too much.
As trainers goes, I think is really good, but I don't think he translates well to the everyday horse person. He did a few things that I thought would be dangerous for a 1st time horse owner to try (which I think makes up a lot of his following).
I was surprised that he didn't push his merchandize since there was a PP store at the clinic.
Him and Linda were a lot more approachable than I thought they would be.


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## palogal

I train professionally which is why I'm always reading, observing, watching clinics etc and I'm completely frustrated that I just don't get it. There is nothing I can use, despite many efforts to find something to use. There's a reason he's a millionaire and I have no idea what it is.


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## morganarab94

The stable I learnt to ride at swore by Parelli...they had all his products/videos/books. And their horses had no manners whatsoever...then when I bought my own horse they tried to get me to completely retrain him "their way"..needless to say I don't go back there anymore and my horse never was "retrained" and he is the greatest horse i've ever been on.


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## Palomine

A horse friend I respect told me about going to a show where they were going to doing their "thing"...and in his wandering around, since he was there with horses, he was all over the place behind the scenes, he saw her riding the snot out of a horse, off and on he saw it being ridden for almost an hour. Hard riding too.

He decided to waste some time and watch the "demo"...lo and behold, what comes in the ring but the very same horse LP had been riding to death.

Only NOW? It is an unbroken, wild, dangerous horse that has never been handled in its life...and would the audience PLEASE make NO NOISE, NO MOVEMENT as it would be life and death for LP.

She did some of that worthless voodoo she do so well....and abracadabra!!! Presto changeo another PP miracle was born...and the horse was CURED!!! Riding AND trained...all in less than 30 minutes. Amen and pass the collection plate.

He was flabbergasted to say the least.

And all the rb/lb/in/ex deal? Mumbo jumbo to explain why their idiocy is getting people hurt.

Good horseman KNOW when a horse can be pushed or not...a horse that had to be left/right/in/outed in the wild? Would be dead.


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## tbcrazy

Palomine said:


> A horse friend I respect told me about going to a show where they were going to doing their "thing"...and in his wandering around, since he was there with horses, he was all over the place behind the scenes, he saw her riding the snot out of a horse, off and on he saw it being ridden for almost an hour. Hard riding too.
> 
> He decided to waste some time and watch the "demo"...lo and behold, what comes in the ring but the very same horse LP had been riding to death.
> 
> Only NOW? It is an unbroken, wild, dangerous horse that has never been handled in its life...and would the audience PLEASE make NO NOISE, NO MOVEMENT as it would be life and death for LP.
> 
> She did some of that worthless voodoo she do so well....and abracadabra!!! Presto changeo another PP miracle was born...and the horse was CURED!!! Riding AND trained...all in less than 30 minutes. Amen and pass the collection plate.
> 
> He was flabbergasted to say the least.
> 
> And all the rb/lb/in/ex deal? Mumbo jumbo to explain why their idiocy is getting people hurt.
> 
> Good horseman KNOW when a horse can be pushed or not...a horse that had to be left/right/in/outed in the wild? Would be dead.


It's frustrating to me that people take a "totally untouched" animal, and think that by getting it to do x, y, and z in an hour that they are awesome. Since when is bringing an animal along at the pace that is appropriate for them bad? People today look for instant gratification more so than the general population 20 years ago, technology has really pushed this. Animals need to be looked at as individuals, and treated as such. Would I be embarrassed if I didn't get a totally unhandled animal caught, saddled, and bridled in an hour? He** no- most people would get hurt trying. *sigh* seems like we all agree in this post, doesn't make it any less irritating though!


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## Fort fireman

The barn my wife had her horse at was a big parelli barn. Not my wife but everyone else. That was a collection of the most spoiled , disrespectful horses I've ever seen with the exception of my wife's horse. However my wife's horse started to show signs of it from being handled on a daily basis by a kool aid drinker.  we moved her out of there and she's now at our own place and that is gone. Great people but they bought into it whole heartedly. I just can't see the draw myself but that's really my only experience with the parelli way of doing things. It's not for me.


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## Oldhorselady

Just happend to see this on my FB..lol....


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## palogal

Awesome...absolutely awesome.


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## COWCHICK77

Palomine said:


> Good horseman KNOW when a horse can be pushed or not.


I totally agree.

I realize that a good portion of PP followers are first time horse owners or converts that don't know any better, they should learn sooner or later but PP _definitely_ would not be in my list of those to learn from. I believe there are way better trainers out there to get information from.


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## xlionesss

Almost, if not all, horses I have come in contact with that have been trained using the Parelli method are disrespectful and pushy. Crazy lady at my old barn "taught" me different things one day in the round pen when she decided I wasn't doing anything right with my horse. Poor boy was confused the moment she started. 
They kind of remind me of bible thumpers that are always trying to convert you to their religion....


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## Cherie

All of the PP horses I have run into were MAD -- just plain sour and mad. I think they get picked at and pecked at until they just get ****ed and the more you mess with them on the ground, the madder they get. A couple were absolutely evil and wanted to attack a handler. 

Reminds me of the Craig List horse a couple of years ago. Ad read:

"For sale or trade -- One 7 year old gelding. He knows all seven Parelli Games very well. I would like to sell him or trade him for a horse that rides good. "

Husband says the definition of Parelli is a "A LEGAL CON. A system to separate middle aged women from their money without going to jail as a con-artist." He thinks it is a better con than a pyramid scheme. He also says "You will find more B*** S*** at a Parelli demonstration than behind the chutes at a rodeo."


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## Wheatermay

I have picked up things from thiem, and I even had a Parelli trainer come out. Well he wasnt licensed. He was ALREADY a trainer and he grew up breaking horses, as did his brother, and he used alot of the Parelli philosophy. IT DID work on my rearing gelding, BUT I have never learned Parelli.... so how much of it was Parelli techniques and how much was just natural? I have no clue. 

We had already had our thoughts on why the rearing was happening, and he confirmed it, and gave us the left, right introvert stuff... Honestly he could have fit in ALL the catagories, as could any other horse. And it made it more confusing to me. I knew how my geldings personality was. I already knew why he was doing it. The trainer fixed it, and showed me how to continue it. I used that and then started adding my way to it. Bc I'm the one riding him! 

So I think the games are fun and everything, but I couldnt terll you if it was Parelli 's training that helped or if it helped this experienced trainer slow down and take time on a horse. 

A wise rider will take a little from everyone that gives them advice and make it their own though.


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## 40232

usandpets said:


> I have nothing against Pat or Linda. I do however dislike their philosophy behind their training. The introvert, extrovert, right, left brain BS. I just don't get it.
> 
> Their overall training really isn't much different than others. Most use the same techniques.
> 
> Occasionally I do use one or more of their seven games. The yo-yo game is good to help get the horse lighter with giving to pressure on the poll.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I like their seven games and their method. I transformed a distrustful broodmade, into a trusting, solid horse.


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## Dustbunny

Cherie;2687977
Reminds me of the Craig List horse a couple of years ago. Ad read:
"For sale or trade -- One 7 year old gelding. He knows all seven Parelli Games very well. I would like to sell him or trade him for a horse that rides good. "
QUOTE said:


> I have not been impressed by the PP stuff but the above quote sort of sums up what I thought..which was "Don't they ever get to ride those horses?"


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## apachiedragon

I had a parelli person tell me once that the "horse would tell her when it wanted to be ridden". Otherwise they did groundwork. If that's truly the logic, then that's why most don't ride, I don't know many horses that will say "okay, ride me please, instead of letting me be". No, I'm sorry. I'm the boss, I decide when we ride, not the horse. Of course, this same person couldn't even catch her horses in the field. Some real powerful bonding and leadership you have, when your horse runs away from you.


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## hickly

Wow.

Wow.

There are lots of parelli haters here! These posts kid of made me laugh because now I look like an idiot.... BUT....
What methods do you guys even use then? Parelli makes perfect sense to me. I don't see it as "Mumbo jumbo". Parelli is simply much different then any other horsemanship, it is about your relationship with your horse. Not about forcing your horse to do stuff. I'm curious, have you ever even tried parelli before writing it off as ridiculous? I'll make sure to post a link to a video of my horse doing groundwork with parelli, just to compare and contrast with other horsemanship. I am not saying I am right and I do not believe parelli is the best out there. Please PM me so we can discuss, I would really like to hear some opinions on it. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Corporal

I know this is a Parelli bash, but *I know why* I'm not fond of their "method." Horses don't understand equal or BFF, and there is a difference between _wooing your horse to play with you_ AND training your horse to do a job and then counting on them to perform their part well and be a useful partner _. _ Another thing I didn't agree with was to push your horse to a faster walk by using the horse's swinging motion at the walk to alternately squeeze your calves with every step. Horses tune that out and become unresponsive. I like to give a command, then my horse performs it, and if I'm training, I praise the effort until we get to the point where my horse has digested it and will perform it for anybody that rides him.
Pretty much everybody else on RFD.tv and HR.tv has something to offer. There's this guy, Kerry (I think) who was demonstrating keeping your eyes forward by following something in the arena, and he was using a buffalo!! I wouldn't want to recreate this, but it was certainly entertaining. =b


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## jaydee

hickly said:


> Wow.
> 
> Wow.
> 
> There are lots of parelli haters here! These posts kid of made me laugh because now I look like an idiot.... BUT....
> What methods do you guys even use then? Parelli makes perfect sense to me. I don't see it as "Mumbo jumbo". Parelli is simply much different then any other horsemanship, it is about your relationship with your horse. Not about forcing your horse to do stuff. I'm curious, have you ever even tried parelli before writing it off as ridiculous? I'll make sure to post a link to a video of my horse doing groundwork with parelli, just to compare and contrast with other horsemanship. I am not saying I am right and I do not believe parelli is the best out there. Please PM me so we can discuss, I would really like to hear some opinions on it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 I think 'hate' is rather too strong a word
You have to remember that many of us on the Forum were training horses, competing, schooling etc way before Parelli was even heard of and on top of those are the people who were (well) influenced by trainers and family who were extremely successful when PP was little more than a twinkle in the sky - that is not even born.
We certainly get irritated by some of his followers who seem to have the opinion that our lack of desire to follow him means that we are either cruel/abusive or totally useless and in most cases neither is correct and if we're having success doing things our traditional way then we see no reason to change that.
If I had no relationship with my horses then I would give up today - in fact I would have given up many years ago
If you would like to PM me to compare certain methods then I would be quite happy to reply. I will say now that having been involved with hundreds of different horses over the years I am totally against the idea that 'one size fits all' and though I cannot stand cruelty there are times when one good sharp whack can better sort out a horse throwing an attitude attack but really knows exactly what it should be doing than months of game playing that often cause more confusion and resentment
Please remember that Parelli is just a face in the media, he's not your family or even BFF and you shouldn't take things said against him personally. If his methods are working for you and your horse then I have no issue with that at all


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## Cynical25

hickly said:


> I'm curious, have you ever even tried parelli before writing it off as ridiculous? I'll *make sure to post a link to a video of my horse doing groundwork with parelli, just to compare and contrast with other horsemanship.* I am not saying I am right and I do not believe parelli is the best out there. Please PM me so we can discuss, I would really like to hear some opinions on it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That is one of the main points of people who aren't enamored with "Natural Horsemanship" - so much of what NH people focus on is JUST groundwork. Personally, I want a horse who is well-rounded and responsive both on the ground and under saddle. I love my horse but I didn't purchase him to become my buddy; I expect him to do the job I acquired him for, which is riding.

There is no one-size-fits all training method, and we are all allowed to find what works for us and our particular horses.


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## morganarab94

Cynical25 said:


> That is one of the main points of people who aren't enamored with "Natural Horsemanship" - so much of what NH people focus on is JUST groundwork. Personally, *I want a horse who is well-rounded and responsive both on the ground and under saddle*. I love my horse but I didn't purchase him to become my buddy; I expect him to do the job I acquired him for, which is riding.
> 
> There is no one-size-fits all training method, and we are all allowed to find what works for us and our particular horses.


I agree with all of this.
To the bolded: The stable I was at that used the P method only did ground work. Those horses were responsive on the ground but when you got on their backs it was no respect whatsoever. They did what they wanted and if the horse did not want you riding them they would make sure you didn't stay on long. Plus when they said my horse needed to be trained that way when he was perfectly fine it was a huge turn off. If it works for you thats great but it is not the method I want to be using. :?


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## apachiedragon

I respected Parelli back in the old days, before Linda and the PR team and the "horsenality" crap. Not because of the program itself per se, but because of its ORIGINAL intended purpose, which was to teach equine body language and behavior to people who didn't understand it (i.e., the new owners, or inexperienced). Those of us who knew what we were looking at could see through the packaging and respect that it was trying to help people understand why horses behaved the way they did, and therefore be able to control them. But then it morphed into this kool-aid, cult-like following of people insisting that you MUST follow the almighty Parelli to the syllable and completely forsake any other method, including all other NH trainers (even though it is essentially the same thing) that I lost my respect and my patience for it.


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## hickly

Yeah, I was rather harsh there for saying "hate".. Sorry about that! I didn't really mean hate, I just mean disagreeing opinions or something along those lines. I totally understand what everyone is saying-I get it and I don't think I'm right. I want to see from everyone else's views, so I love these responses. Thank you everyone! I do parelli, and this doesn't bother me. Everyone has an opinon. 

Now I'll try and reply separately to each person's post...

jaydee- Sorry for saying hate. Besides that, I get what you're saying. I don't believe that Parelli is the way to do everything. I haven't put myself 100% into only parelli, I try to learn from everyone's methods. I study everyone that I can. I understand that before Parelli there were many good horsemen and women-there still are today. 

I'm not at all offended, I don't even know if I would want him to be my BFF. Hehe. 



Corporal-I'm going to have to say I disagree a bit with what you said. I believe horses can see humans as equals, in the right conditions. It's the reason horses kick and bite (when they're not spooked)-to show dominance. They have to see you as an equal otherwise they wouldn't do it. They're doing it to try and win dominance over you. Because they see you as a threat to their dominant status.
That doesn't really make any sense and I kind of rambled on, does anyone else understand what I'm saying? :-|



Cynical25-Hey, most parelli people actually ride a lot. After getting their horse to understand basic pressure, we ride a lot more. The groundwork is just preparing for riding. There are some parelli people who don't ride, i'm not saying that everyone does. Training a horse on the ground really helps when it comes to the saddle, in my opinion.


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## bsms

hickly said:


> ...Parelli is simply much different then any other horsemanship, it is about your relationship with your horse. Not about forcing your horse to do stuff._.._


That *IS* my impression of Parelli - that it substitutes 'relation' for 'training'. You are supposed to ride the relationship, which is a darn dangerous approach because a horse can think you are wonderful and still bolt into dangerous ground, while a trained horse can think you are an *** yet go where you point him when you point him at the speed you say to go.

*TRAINING* makes a safe horse and a fun riding experience. Bonding can come later, if it comes at all.

Folks who want an emotional bond ought to buy a small dog. It is cheaper and safer. A 10 lb poodle can't take you off the edge of a 10' wash and kill you both on the rocks below, to describe a spot that is about 100 yards from where my little arena opens on to the street. If a 10 lb poodle bolts, you pick up the leash and look at him while he dangles there. It is much tougher with a 1000 lb horse...

Besides, dogs have been bred to bond. Horses were bred for work. Although, as this World War 1 (yes, ONE) photo shows, horses and riders were bonding fine before Parelli was born:










Edit: training involves conditioned responses practiced into almost unbreakable habits. Training is what enables you to control 1,000 lbs of running muscle, as opposed to being on their back and hoping it works out.​


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## Cynical25

Oh, I agree solid ground work is essential for a good riding horse, hickly. It was just an example, as so many of the questions on the NH board revolve around ground work, Parelli's games, lunging for respect, join-up, bonding, etc.


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## MrsK

Oldhorselady said:


> Just happend to see this on my FB..lol....



Lauren Barwick did for Canada - and won gold in Beijing :wink:
She's a Parelli instructor.


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## usandpets

There will always be people that dislike whatever method or trainer you use. 

I don't hate or dislike Pat or Linda. I've never met them. I dislike their training. It's confusing to me. I know how to identify whether a horse is afraid or stubborn. I know what to do to work with them. I don't want to have a psychology degree to work with them. That's what I get from Pat and Linda and their method. 

I don't care for Dennis Reis either. He seems goofy to me. I don't really like Monte Roberts. I don't think you have to join up with the horse before doing anything else. I can go on with others. 

I do like Clinton Anderson. I know there are those that don't like him. I think he is easy to understand and follow. 

So there are haters for each trainer. You can use which ever that suits you best or use some from each.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee

MrsK said:


> Lauren Barwick did for Canada - and won gold in Beijing :wink:
> She's a Parelli instructor.


 Lauren is a remarkable young woman and I admire her for her determination and courage but I cant help but wonder how many of these people who seem to come from very non PP backgrounds are actually just really smart and hitch a ride on his bandwagon because its a good way to make money and not because they are great believers?


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## apachiedragon

I have to agree with that. The O'Conners were Parelli supporters for a while too. That didn't last, lol.


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## Copperhead

When I was younger, my barn owner made me watch Parelli and read the books to become a trainer. I never understood it and when I tried to apply it to a horse, he never understood it but kinda did it anyways to try and please me.

I stopped watching and reading and learned classical dressage instead with an emphasis on training and ground manners. It all made sense, the horses understood. We retrained Parelli Drop-Outs sometimes. One so severe that Parelli himself told the owner to euthenize.

We got in a lot of horses to train/retrain. Some were Parelli...but we never got in a horse from any other NH training program.

I lost all respect for Parelli after that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Farmchic

What type of training would you recommend to someone who is green and wants to work with their own horse?


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## tbcrazy

Farmchic said:


> What type of training would you recommend to someone who is green and wants to work with their own horse?


A reputable instructor in their area who will work with them in person, not hand them a DVD. An instructor who will help set manageable goals, teach them how to be safe both on the ground and under saddle, and who is a good communicator. This, above all else, is going to keep a newbie safer than just doing it themselves with a book and tv...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Copperhead

A tv should have nothing to do with training a horse, in my opinion. You can get tips from a tv program, but the actually training needs to come from one on one experience.

The first step to becoming a trainer is to become a student. Take lessons, learn how to control a horse and ride a horse. Learn how horses learn with someone coaching you on your own behavior and timing. Become a student first. Then when you've understood enough, you can become a teacher.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee

Farmchic said:


> What type of training would you recommend to someone who is green and wants to work with their own horse?


 There is no substitute for hands on training where horses are concerned - sure you can get ideas and some guidelines from videos and books but when something goes wrong its always easier to deal with if you have someone there to take over ASAP and put the horse right and put you right. Same goes for actual riding - unless you have mirrors you have no real clue if you're sitting right - I know someone who boasts about being a great rider and she has about the worst and most uncomfortable position I've ever seen - fortunately all she does is plod around the tracks on a very quiet long suffering pony
One of the main reasons people like PP have risen so well is because too many 'green' people are buying part trained and untrained horses or the type of trained horses that will take advantage of them if they get half a chance
My first 2 ponies were 'schoolmasters' in the true sense, you had to push the right buttons to get the right results but they knew their jobs 100% so to a certain extent they did 'teach me' but only because someone else had done a wonderful job of teaching them.


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## BoldComic

Wait!!! You guys don't take finding your horses' "horsenality" seriously? Next you'll tell me that the pet psychic is a fraud... I can't take it!


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## smrobs

One of the main things I've noticed about the Parelli program is that, stripped completely of all the BS, has some basic good information for novice horse owners.

NOW, the problem with that is that those _few_ morsels of good information are so wrapped up in complete and utter nonsense or hidden behind some very dangerous information. Folks who know horses don't follow Parelli because the basic information he's putting out was ingrained in them so many years ago that they barely even notice that he's covering it. However, someone who knows very little about horses, it's all new to them BUT, they can't pick out the good information from the bad. That's why it's so dangerous. With certain horses, the "porcupine" game is nothing but an exercise to complete, with others, the "porcupine" game played with the human in just the wrong position can get the person hurt or killed.

Same with the "friendly" game. I can't tell you how many times I've read on here where someone is having some issue with their horse and some of the responses they get are "you need to play the friendly game with him", when I read the OP and think..."Wow, someone needs to play the 'come over here with your ears pinned again and I'll beat you to death with this rope' game with that horse".

Granted, I don't have _vast_ amounts of experience with horses from Parelli homes, but every single experience I've had with said horses has been bad. _*Every one*_ of them was spoiled and disrespectful and unhappy.


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## BoldComic

I like straight forward, no BS trainers. I like people who are honest and don't sugar coat the facts or tiptoe around owners feelings. I think my biggest problem with Parelli is that, like smrobs stated, it's "wrapped up in complete and utter nonsense"


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## peppersgirl

I haven't read the whole thread but...I Cannot stand the way Linda rides...and tells others to ride. OH anddd when ever they work with someone who has a ****y horse, Linda always seems to suggest pad shims.. mmhhhmmmm and then they try to pass off the whole "oh look how much happier the horse is'..BS he looks just as ****y as when you started...maybeeee its that stupid unbalanced way of riding that has his back hurting..maybe? facking Pirelli's. 

To come to pats defense, I have seen him do some good things with a gate sour barrel horse- he can train, I just think he has taken it too far with the whole "be your horses friend" thing. (and I wonder how much of that and the marketing stuff we can blame on his icky wife)


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## 40232

Honestly, this whole posting just annoys me. I have met people that are all for Clinton Anderson, or all for Pat Parelli, or all for another trainer. Different trainers work for different people. But ALL of these "natural" horsemanship trainers work on one key concept, pressure and release. Sure, they may have different equitation, but who really cares. Is it the equitation that matters, or the result?

This whole trainer debate is like highschool all over again. So and so does this wrong so they do everything wrong, or so and so are bad because of this, and so on and so forth. It is absolutely sickening. The cliques are back.

My opinion on Pat's training? He knows good stuff. His ground work has helped me immensely with multiple horses. The 7 games made a pushy yearling into a respectful one. All of his groundwork made a nervous, panicky, abused broodmare into a trustworthy riding horse. All of his training made my hot, hot, hot arabian cross into a calm performance horse. His methods made an extremely introverted, nervous horse into a confident trail horse. So what is he really doing wrong?

Every trainer has "bad" things about them. Please be a tad more open minded about a specific trainer's methods before you go and say they do this, this, and this wrong, and nothing right.

Thank you,
Kylie


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## bsms

Here's a deal: If various NH trainers - with the Parellis being high on the list of offenders - won't act like they discovered everything good, and will accept 'unnatural trainers", then I'll cut them some slack. 

But a few weeks ago I visited the Parelli website and read what Linda had to say about how she revolutionized the world of saddles...and I darn near puked. You would have a better chance of getting a good fit with a Dakota saddle thru the Steele Saddle Tree fitting program (Steele Saddle Tree LLC - Fit To The Horse) than by buying a $4K saddle from the Parellis. 

(""Aahh, how simple life was when we didn't know how much horses suffered from saddles that trap them, and stiff riders who sit in the wrong place!!!...The Parellis realized that many behavioral problems when riding can be attributed to a saddle that is restrictive or even painful, and Linda began to focus on this issue in 2001 with a passion that led to the development of a revolutionary line of saddle tools that are re-defining horse/rider interface." - Welcome to Parelli Saddles)










Marketing like that strikes me as stupid. I'd bet a lot of folks on this forum knew about saddle fit before "Linda began to focus on this issue in 2001 with a passion". Those who pee on other folks Wheaties can't complain if someone rejects them as a houseguest...


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## Copperhead

"The Parelli line of saddles isn't for anyone. They are only for those who care about learning to ride better..."

Excuse me? This phrase is exactly why I hate Parelli - bogus training aside.

I let my western saddle collect dust for over two years and squeezed into dressage breeches JUST because I thought tight white spandex leggings would make my butt LOOK better.

I didnt do it because I seriously cared about learning how to ride! That's just NONESENSE. Tight white expensive pants! Equipped with flattering and attractive panty lines! And MAN did I look hot when I worked so much that my butt crack was outlined in those pants with sweat!

All I had to do was buy a Parelli saddle and skip that classical dressage training? That's all?

That's two and a half years full of 2 hour lessons every single day - waste of time and money. I feel like I've been conned.

I'ma grab my credit card and order one of those saddles right away. I'll be winning Rolex with my spazoid appendix next year.

(I get very sarcastic when I'm angry. I've seen correct riding in western saddles so no hate there. No hate to people who like those white breeches and no hate to people seriously training for higher competitions on spazoid appendix's)

Also, according to Parelli, we are supposed to ride slouched, with rounded shoulders and our heels up, without helmets until recently.

Because that's safe.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Arab Mama

I also tried desperately to find something of value watching Parelli and I can honestly say I don't think I've ever seen a bigger waste of time and money. I had a horse training client that came to me with a horse she had been working Parelli with. She had the horse for over a year and hadn't ridden him in that time because her Parelli training said she wasn't ready to do that yet. She finally decided she was tired of not riding and found me. I had to de-Parelli the horse and get her back on him. It to a while and a lot of patience, but it worked. I can find something about nearly any trainer that is useful, but not Parelli. And I really TRIED!


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## Prinella

Parelli was the first trainer whose moods I was introduced to. I was introduced to these methods by an amazing horsewoman who was previously an instructor of his but she left because of all the bull feces that emerged. 

Using these methods my unloadable horse Now self loads. 
My bratty yearling who was getting dangerous is now a pleasant quiet 6yo, albeit still green due to a lack of time. ( bloody fences !) 

I do see that if I'd been doing this alone I could have become really bogged down in ground work.
With my older mare I did fixate slightly on the idea of having my hot qh trot around slowly on a long rein. Started slow stuff when I was working her back in when she presented with arthritis. Got over that now hunting!

Did anyone else notice the levels changed? 
Level one now involves no bareback, no canter work all ground work. A huge difference from the old levels.


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## apachiedragon

If they didn't change the program all the time, there would be nothing new to sell to the cult. :wink: Its more marketing hoopla to keep the dough rolling in. The "new, improved" method baloney.


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## Prinella

The levels got far easier. I'm guessing they perhaps want more?
Eg the old level one asked you to trot a figure 8 with one rein and I think that was bareback. 
Tbh not sure of the use of it but it's fun

The new one just wants you to trot around in a saddle and there's NO liberty. 

I literally managed to teach most of level one to a friend in one day! 
The old one was far trickier!


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## Nokotaheaven

Just to say: With Parelli you have to read far more between the lines than everyone usually does. You have to look at not what he's saying or emphasizing, but the small body movements and gestures in both him and the horse to really learn what's really working. In the beginning he really gave me a start on horsemanship. Notice I didn't say natural. I think it's unfair to criticize on him so much. After all, he is human, just like us, and we all have our flaws, and our areas of expertise, and our areas that we just cannot grasp. Just because somebody cannot grasp what a trainer is doing does not make him a bad trainer, it just shows that the trainer needs to improve their teaching in that area.
And the reason he's made his levels easier is because when you've got a horse and know pretty well nothing about training, just like everything else, it makes learning easier when you can break things down and focus on one area at a time instead of a few things all at once. That makes sense does it not?
I mean also, there are trainers I don't like for my own reasons, but I'm not ranting about them...
Also, I think you have to take some certified 'students' or trainers with a grain of salt.... We met a John Lyons CERTIFIED trainer who in trailer loading pushed horses on, and really gave them a beating when they came off until they wanted to stay on.... Even though they were terrified. So yes, not everybody is who they say they are, so to speak.
I also noticed that even though Parelli is a Natural Horsemanship trainer, this was posted in the general training area instead of the one specifically for natural horsemanship... hmm.


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## Nokotaheaven

Also to add on to that. Some say parlly is a load of BS and doesn't work.... I personally know at least 12 horses that would beg to differ. And here are some variants in these horses:
An ottb, another thoroughbred, three kiger mustang, a unhandled nokota mustang, a paso fino who had been twitched, a tennessee walker, an arab who had been a stud for about 13 years of his life, a pony who was pampered, a paint who was completely unhandled then forced onto a trailer, and a quarter horse who in her past life was a bronc horse and had mental scars from it.


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## Saddlebag

When it comes to horse training we need to keep and open mind. Knowledge can be gleaned from every trainer and it's up to us to decide what works and what doesn't on a particular horse. 2 yr olds have willing minds and what works with them may do nothing for the hardened criminal. The greater the size of your training repertoire the better you will be able to call upon what works with the individual animal.


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## Saddlebag

BSMS pre Parelli saddles, I'd bo't his book, the one with him jumping a black over a log. As I perused the book I began to notice how his saddle did not fit the chestnut he was working with. She was heavily padded and even then only the top of the bars engaged her back, not the full width. Since he and Linda were appearing in Canada I wrote to one of his instructors who was attending and mentioned this very poor fit. He took my email with him to show the Ps my concerns that his followers might think such poor saddle fit was ok. Linda consequently sent him an email which the instructor forwarded to me that Pat was having a saddle designed for better balance. Huh?? No mention of choosing a saddle that would better fit the horse. She was rather defensive. Ain't nobody is going to dump her applecart.


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## EquineObsessed

The thing about training horses is that one size doesn't fit all. I don't like PP because it is not effective on my horse. It might work on other horses, though I have yet to meet one... The problem with horse training today is that people have such a preference for the way a certain person does it that they ignore what might be right for the horse.


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## its lbs not miles

Nokotaheaven said:


> Just to say: With Parelli you have to read far more between the lines than everyone usually does. You have to look at not what he's saying or emphasizing, but the small body movements and gestures in both him and the horse to really learn what's really working. In the beginning he really gave me a start on horsemanship. Notice I didn't say natural. I think it's unfair to criticize on him so much. After all, he is human, just like us, and we all have our flaws, and our areas of expertise, and our areas that we just cannot grasp. Just because somebody cannot grasp what a trainer is doing does not make him a bad trainer, it just shows that the trainer needs to improve their teaching in that area.
> And the reason he's made his levels easier is because when you've got a horse and know pretty well nothing about training, just like everything else, it makes learning easier when you can break things down and focus on one area at a time instead of a few things all at once. That makes sense does it not?
> I mean also, there are trainers I don't like for my own reasons, but I'm not ranting about them...
> Also, I think you have to take some certified 'students' or trainers with a grain of salt.... We met a John Lyons CERTIFIED trainer who in trailer loading pushed horses on, and really gave them a beating when they came off until they wanted to stay on.... Even though they were terrified. So yes, not everybody is who they say they are, so to speak.
> I also noticed that even though Parelli is a Natural Horsemanship trainer, this was posted in the general training area instead of the one specifically for natural horsemanship... hmm.


There is a problem with PP (and LP). It's called attitude.
There is a problem with their training philosophy. It's called attitude.

Now no one is going to change your mind. You've fallen in love with that method of training and if it works great for every horse you ever deal with (you won't deal with too many if that's true) then great.
I've seen their method and attitude not work. Saw it in person and I've even seen it on one of their training videos that they sell to people (the horse in question was not responding to LP even after she took the most extreme measures she was willing to take on video. In the next session that horse was missing and she commented on how that horse was a problem and the owner was working with it off camera.
Interestingly enough I saw the same exact training item (and issue) in person (before seeing the training video...my friend loves PP and LP :lol. The only difference was the owner was smart enough to say "enough". Once the horse was calmed down and back at ease it took less than 10 min using a different method to have it backing up (with out any lead rope) just using a voice command and a hand motion.

This demonstrates both of the problems with the PP and LP training plan
.
1. If the horse doesn't respond easily to what you want it to do using our method then just keep making it more severe until it does respond and does what you want.
Problem is that some horse are NOT going to respond and all you do is create a bigger problem.
2. Our way is the way to do things. Our way will work if you do it right. We are right and if you say otherwise then you are wrong.
Problem is their way doesn't always work with every horse. Sometimes you need to try a different approach and use a different method. Not all people learn best in the same manner. Neither do all horses.

If you want a good example of both of those cases (that damaged the PP reputation in the UK) is what happened in 2010 during demonstration he was giving a large event in England. I don't remember all the details off the top of my head, but I did see the video and was pretty typical of what they do when "their" method isn't working. Short story was the stallion being worked with wouldn't take the bridle. Pat's method wasn't working so eventually he went to the point of putting the line under the horses lip (an old Indian trick) in an attempt to force the issue. Even this didn't work (the whole thing actually got pretty ugly over all with all line under the leg, etc...) and the horse still did not accept the bridle. The only thing Pat accomplished was to really get the horse worked up and injuring the horse's gum so the inspecting Vet said the horse could not be used in the next days demonstration. That's a demonstration of problem 1 (my way is the only way and all you have to do is keep at it...taking it whatever level....and it will work)
Problem 2 came immediately afterwards. Did Pat admit that hey he went too far and did things that were not actually needed and that a different technique should have been used with this horse. NO. The people who were upset about it OBVIOUSLY didn't understand what they were seeing. This horse was a particularly hard case and he had a host of excuses for why things had to end up the way they did (and that of course he succeeded later on ...... off camera).

Of course, as is usual, many PP and LP fans defend what he did and stand by him. I just consider the source of that support (i.e. people who just don't know any better) since there will always be hero worshippers who will never think their hero is wrong (no matter what, as long as the hero has any sort of explanation).

Well, my grandfather would never have let me take a horse to the point that Pat took that stallion and I'd have been picking my self up off the ground if he ever caught me doing it (being his grandson is likely the only thing that would have kept me from getting a load of number 6 shot in my butt).

I started working with horse and cattle (and dogs) before Pat did (no fault of his :lol:, I was just born earlier and most of my family farmed and had stock) and I can say with complete confidence that anyone who tells you that there is ANY technique that works well for training all horse is full of it. Even though to date I've never met a horse I couldn't teach to back up using my grandfather's method (without wiggling a lead :lol, I'll never tell anyone that it's the only way or even the best way for every horse (although I've never seen a horse get worked up over it). I'll be the first to say that if it ever isn't working (for me or anyone I've shown) then try something different that might work better for that horse.

Pat and Linda can't/won't say that. What they sell HAS to work and be the best way. If it doesn't you didn't do it right or if it's not working for them then it's a problem horse or if they do something that doesn't seem right to other people then we just don't understand (of course we can't be smart enough to figure out for ourselves that what they did wasn't the right thing to do....we're not that smart....and how dare anyone question them, their techniques or abilities). People can believe what they want. If you want to believe that the PP method is the greatest thing that ever came along in horse training (I have very good friends who do :lol:.....and never stop trying to sell me on it) you are have the absolute right to believe it. But I've been working with horses long enough to know better. if it looks like crap and smells like crap don't ask (or expect) me to eat it :lol:.

And I don't have to read between the lines to know what is working with a horse and what is not.


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## laurenandtoby

I am surprised no one on this thread has mentioned Buck Brannaman. Have any of you ever seen Buck ride? Or work with a problem horse? Buck's philosophy is really pretty simple and is based on what he learned from Ray Hunt, Tom Dorrence and others. And that is, to be a leader for your horse and always offer him the best deal possible. Reward the slightest try. But be prepared to be as firm as you need to be to get the job done.

I believe these basic principles, if applied correctly, would solve most of the specific problems that people are posting here. This is what Pat started off teaching more than 20 years ago, and I personally learned a lot from studying his original green Level 1 kit with the little pocket guides (I think you can buy this old kit on ebay now for next to nothing, but you need a VHS player to watch the tape lol). Those basic principles helped me get a runaway, scared to death Arabian actually rideable and able to compete in dressage and go on long trail rides without having a meltdown. 

I haven't really followed Pat's program in the last 10 years, but from what I see, the people who "drink the Koolaid" now just don't get the part about being ready to be as firm as you need to be to get the result. But on the other hand, a lot of other people in the horse world don't seem to get the lightness aspect of it and don't ever offer the horse a good deal first.

I mostly just ride my horses now, but every minute that I am with them on the ground is a teaching moment where I insist on getting (and get) their respect. In return, I find they want to be with me, trust me and listen, both on the ground and when I ride. My husband is a farrier and he also applies what he learned from Ray Hunt and Buck Brannaman every time he is with a horse. Buck just calls it horsemanship.


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## 40232

Prinella said:


> The levels got far easier. I'm guessing they perhaps want more?
> Eg the old level one asked you to trot a figure 8 with one rein and I think that was bareback.
> Tbh not sure of the use of it but it's fun
> 
> The new one just wants you to trot around in a saddle and there's NO liberty.
> 
> I literally managed to teach most of level one to a friend in one day!
> The old one was far trickier!


Weird, the level one set I have is 7 years old, and it was purely ground work :/


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## palogal

peppersgirl said:


> I haven't read the whole thread but...I Cannot stand the way Linda rides...and tells others to ride. OH anddd when ever they work with someone who has a ****y horse, Linda always seems to suggest pad shims.. mmhhhmmmm and then they try to pass off the whole "oh look how much happier the horse is'..BS he looks just as ****y as when you started...maybeeee its that stupid unbalanced way of riding that has his back hurting..maybe? facking Pirelli's.
> 
> To come to pats defense, I have seen him do some good things with a gate sour barrel horse- he can train, I just think he has taken it too far with the whole "be your horses friend" thing. (and I wonder how much of that and the marketing stuff we can blame on his icky wife)


 
Linda's riding makes my skin crawl. 



 
This video for example...


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## palogal

This one infuriates me.


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## Nokotaheaven

palogal said:


> Linda Parelli's Game of Contact - YouTube
> 
> This one infuriates me.


I do not see how it infuriates you. Personally, what I see, is a horse that's had issues with riders in the past, is nervous and has his adrenaline up even though he's walking nicely, and because of whatever's happened in his past is not carrying himself properly and doesn't bend his neck properly. He is afraid of contact with the bit. Her hands are not being a wall, just are being a barrier. She's showing him that it's okay to have contact with the bit, that nothing bad will happen. She is also not putting too much contact, as you can see if he bends his nose he puts slack in the rope


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## Nokotaheaven

its lbs not miles said:


> There is a problem with PP (and LP). It's called attitude.
> There is a problem with their training philosophy. It's called attitude.
> 
> Now no one is going to change your mind. You've fallen in love with that method of training and if it works great for every horse you ever deal with (you won't deal with too many if that's true) then great.
> I've seen their method and attitude not work. Saw it in person and I've even seen it on one of their training videos that they sell to people (the horse in question was not responding to LP even after she took the most extreme measures she was willing to take on video. In the next session that horse was missing and she commented on how that horse was a problem and the owner was working with it off camera.
> Interestingly enough I saw the same exact training item (and issue) in person (before seeing the training video...my friend loves PP and LP :lol. The only difference was the owner was smart enough to say "enough". Once the horse was calmed down and back at ease it took less than 10 min using a different method to have it backing up (with out any lead rope) just using a voice command and a hand motion.
> 
> This demonstrates both of the problems with the PP and LP training plan
> .
> 1. If the horse doesn't respond easily to what you want it to do using our method then just keep making it more severe until it does respond and does what you want.
> Problem is that some horse are NOT going to respond and all you do is create a bigger problem.
> 2. Our way is the way to do things. Our way will work if you do it right. We are right and if you say otherwise then you are wrong.
> Problem is their way doesn't always work with every horse. Sometimes you need to try a different approach and use a different method. Not all people learn best in the same manner. Neither do all horses.
> 
> If you want a good example of both of those cases (that damaged the PP reputation in the UK) is what happened in 2010 during demonstration he was giving a large event in England. I don't remember all the details off the top of my head, but I did see the video and was pretty typical of what they do when "their" method isn't working. Short story was the stallion being worked with wouldn't take the bridle. Pat's method wasn't working so eventually he went to the point of putting the line under the horses lip (an old Indian trick) in an attempt to force the issue. Even this didn't work (the whole thing actually got pretty ugly over all with all line under the leg, etc...) and the horse still did not accept the bridle. The only thing Pat accomplished was to really get the horse worked up and injuring the horse's gum so the inspecting Vet said the horse could not be used in the next days demonstration. That's a demonstration of problem 1 (my way is the only way and all you have to do is keep at it...taking it whatever level....and it will work)
> Problem 2 came immediately afterwards. Did Pat admit that hey he went too far and did things that were not actually needed and that a different technique should have been used with this horse. NO. The people who were upset about it OBVIOUSLY didn't understand what they were seeing. This horse was a particularly hard case and he had a host of excuses for why things had to end up the way they did (and that of course he succeeded later on ...... off camera).
> 
> Of course, as is usual, many PP and LP fans defend what he did and stand by him. I just consider the source of that support (i.e. people who just don't know any better) since there will always be hero worshippers who will never think their hero is wrong (no matter what, as long as the hero has any sort of explanation).
> 
> Well, my grandfather would never have let me take a horse to the point that Pat took that stallion and I'd have been picking my self up off the ground if he ever caught me doing it (being his grandson is likely the only thing that would have kept me from getting a load of number 6 shot in my butt).
> 
> I started working with horse and cattle (and dogs) before Pat did (no fault of his :lol:, I was just born earlier and most of my family farmed and had stock) and I can say with complete confidence that anyone who tells you that there is ANY technique that works well for training all horse is full of it. Even though to date I've never met a horse I couldn't teach to back up using my grandfather's method (without wiggling a lead :lol, I'll never tell anyone that it's the only way or even the best way for every horse (although I've never seen a horse get worked up over it). I'll be the first to say that if it ever isn't working (for me or anyone I've shown) then try something different that might work better for that horse.
> 
> Pat and Linda can't/won't say that. What they sell HAS to work and be the best way. If it doesn't you didn't do it right or if it's not working for them then it's a problem horse or if they do something that doesn't seem right to other people then we just don't understand (of course we can't be smart enough to figure out for ourselves that what they did wasn't the right thing to do....we're not that smart....and how dare anyone question them, their techniques or abilities). People can believe what they want. If you want to believe that the PP method is the greatest thing that ever came along in horse training (I have very good friends who do :lol:.....and never stop trying to sell me on it) you are have the absolute right to believe it. But I've been working with horses long enough to know better. if it looks like crap and smells like crap don't ask (or expect) me to eat it :lol:.
> 
> And I don't have to read between the lines to know what is working with a horse and what is not.


When did I ever say I use strictly just them? I didn't.
Also, looking at this business wise, they're making how much more than the average person? You gotta be doing something right if you get that rich.
Also, just like in any business you kinda have to market your products to get business. And you constantly have to find ways to make your product better to stay on top of the game.
I mean, if I was as populat as them, I would probably find posts and comments of people criticizing and hating me and saying how I'm doing this and that wrong. But really truth is my main concern is the horses and people I help, and I'll know what I did do right, but I won't be able to satisfy everybody's expectations of me. I guess that's a good way of looking at it


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## palogal

if you look at the comments on youtube you will see that it is plain and simple bad riding. She is attempting to ride dressage and is completely incorrect.


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## tbcrazy

Nokotaheaven said:


> Also, looking at this business wise, they're making how much more than the average person? You gotta be doing something right if you get that rich.
> Also, just like in any business you kinda have to market your products to get business. And you constantly have to find ways to make your product better to stay on top of the


Most good horsemanship speaks for itself. If you're truly good with horses and are able to communicate that knowledge to people, I'd be surprised if your barn didn't stay full. I don't have to market myself around my area for kids lessons- parents talk, kids have fun/stay safe/learn something, and the parents take care of the rest. I don't 'sell' anything with a fancy ribbon on it, myself included. I think the issue a lot of people have with parelli is that more money (and marketing) does not equal more knowledge. Someone chime in if I'm off base.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms

Nokotaheaven said:


> ...Personally, what I see, is a horse that's had issues with riders in the past, is nervous and has his adrenaline up even though he's walking nicely, and because of whatever's happened in his past is not carrying himself properly and doesn't bend his neck properly....
> 
> ...they're making how much more than the average person? You gotta be doing something right if you get that rich.
> 
> Also, just like in any business you kinda have to market your products to get business...


The "Get Out of Jail Free" card - if the horse looks poorly trained, it is because the horse had something bad in the past, and only the Parellis can save him. But most horses - at least in the market segment I can afford - have issues. 

Trooper is now our best horse, but he has scars on his sides from where bloody holes were spurred into him. Unlike most 'abused' horses, he actually has scars. 

Mia was sold as perfect for a beginner, but a trainer later concluded she had never been broken. She had no idea of yielding to pressure, no idea about bits, and had no idea that there could be rocks in the ground that you might have to step over. She is a sweet horse, but has a more complex personality than the other horses I've met. She was not and never will be a 'beginner's horse'.

Cowboy was used as a lesson horse. If he didn't mind, he was round penned for punishment. He's still nervous about arenas, but he's actually my favorite horse on the trail - interested, but not inclined to panic.

In most cases, you don't know much about a horse's history. You don't psycho-analyze them. You just find out what works and doesn't, and then work to fill the holes in their training. 

But the Parellis sell "bond". "How many of you want your horse to love you? How many want to have your horse be your friend?" is how one Parelli video I saw started. I suppose most decent people would answer yes, but you don't make a horse ride well by building bond. You TRAIN the horse fairly and consistently, and then a bond forms as you share good times (and not so good ones) together.

From my limited experience, you bond with a horse by riding well (or trying - most horses are forgiving), by having fair and consistent rules, by taking care of the horse and by not bullying the horse. "Horse sense" is another term for "common sense". It is used of someone not easily fooled, who can evaluate a situation based on facts and not gimmicks. It exists. In horses, at least.

Over time, a horse can figure out if you are fair or a bully, if you have rules you enforce, if you care for the horse or are just using it. You don't bond with tricks. You don't bond with gimmicks. You might fool a girl on a date, but you won't fool her thru 25 years of marriage. The same is true of horses. Long term, if you want a horse's trust, you need to be trustworthy.

The local trainers I've met will tell you that. The trainer who broke Mia said Mia would take a long time to become a good horse, but could eventually be a very remarkable horse. I've put a ton of work into teaching her to be a "trail horse", and there is more work ahead. But as the months pass, and now years, I'm becoming the rider she needs & she is becoming the horse I wanted. 

That is the truth, but it isn't what the Parelli's sell. They cater to the instant gratification that sells in America - build a bond with "games". But horses are smarter than a lot of people. Horses don't bond to someone who plays games. They bond with someone who is reliable and fair. And there are no shortcuts for that.


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## its lbs not miles

Nokotaheaven said:


> When did I ever say I use strictly just them? I didn't.
> Also, looking at this business wise, they're making how much more than the average person? You gotta be doing something right if you get that rich.
> Also, just like in any business you kinda have to market your products to get business. And you constantly have to find ways to make your product better to stay on top of the game.
> I mean, if I was as populat as them, I would probably find posts and comments of people criticizing and hating me and saying how I'm doing this and that wrong. But really truth is my main concern is the horses and people I help, and I'll know what I did do right, but I won't be able to satisfy everybody's expectations of me. I guess that's a good way of looking at it


That doesn't excuse poor practices that give negative results and then standing behind them and trying to justify them.
When you're wrong just admit it. When there's other ways that work better than yours with a lot of horses just say so. You get a LOT more respect for admitting an error in judgment or a mistake then you do saying that what you did wrong was right. You look better including more ways of doing things so that people who don't know better can do better and be more successful.
And telling people that they don't understand what they saw or what was happening (especially people who have worked with horses LONG before he started he started marketing a small part of the many techiques that have been known and used long before he came along) is almost funny to think about.
His rich because of marketing. NOT because he's right or his way is best. There are people who can sell aluminum siding to someone with a brick home. So of course there are people with brick homes that will buy into the sales pitch and believe that they need the aluminum siding. It doesn't mean that they needed the siding (they don't), but it means the sales person was good enough to fool them.
Pat and Linda don't make sales to those of us who know better. They do well with people who are wanting to learn and buy into the hype. If these same people had started with some other experienced people and had already learned a lot then they wouldn't be impressed. That's one reason there are a great many people who are not impressed with PP and LP.
The funny thing is that they've come to actually believe their own hype :lol:. That they and what they put out is the best.
People became rich with ponzi schemes. Doesn't mean what they were saying or "selling" was the right way to go. They got rich because enough people believed them and were willing to spend the money.
If I sold you a way of fishing and you managed to catch some fish using my method would that make me a great fishing instructor? No. Odds are that with a little common sense you probably could have manage to catch just as many fish using a means you came up with yourself as long as you understood the basics of how to catch a fish.

Personally I've seen some of what's done by several of the NH trainer training programs. All of them have good things to offer. The best one's (and I'm not going to get into who I prefer more....I don't follow any of them, but I'm an old timer) tend to have less of a series of "games" (for you PP fans :lol and more of a philosophy of how to work with the horse so that there are many different options for getting the same result while still following the philosophy. Even PP has this, but ruins it by saying the training has be done following a set procedure which can often lead to poor and unsuccessful results (off camera of course.....if they can help it). And when there's a problem that people notice it is, of course, because the horse was a problem .... or....we (those who do not blindly belief his hype) just don't understand.

I've seen Buck Brannaman get a horse to basically load itself into a trailer (he wasn't even near the horse or trailer). I'll admit that I'd never seen anything like it and I started before Buck did too. I do respect that I've heard him tell it like it is and not try to "talk around it" and do things that weren't a good practice (ok I'm picking on Buck, but only because that trailer load was impressive :lol: regardless of the situation and I like that he promotes a philosophy over any specific technique). Although I'm a "follower" of Buck either. He's one of a very many trainers out there with something to offer. So my position has always been that you can always learn more, there's no one or even two ways to train, and the biggest things to training a horse is common sense, patience and know the horse you're training.

Just don't insult people by telling them that they don't understand what they saw and don't say that a system will eventually work if you just doing it more agressively each time until the horse does what you want. That's the problem with PP and LP.

Being rich doesn't make you right, or the best.


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## its lbs not miles

oooops
meant to say:
...or do things that weren't a good practice 
not
...and do things that weren't a good practice


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## its lbs not miles

another ooops :lol:
Meant:
I'm not a follower of Buck.

The problems with the fingers not keeping up with the mind :lol:


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## apachiedragon

It's just like the people doing informercials at 4AM selling the "get rich quick" books. They didn't get rich by doing what's in the book, they got rich by selling the book to people gullible enough to believe them.


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## Draft lover

Both Pat and Linda can ride very well, and they can train very well. However, with that said, all they seem to do show off what they know rather than teach what they know. They seem to just ride around an arena talking, almost brainwashing "believers" into thing they are being taught something, but they are really not learning anything. JMO.


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## jaydee

Nokotaheaven said:


> *I do not see how it infuriates you.* Personally, what I see, is a horse that's had issues with riders in the past, is nervous and has his adrenaline up even though he's walking nicely, and because of whatever's happened in his past is not carrying himself properly and doesn't bend his neck properly. He is afraid of contact with the bit. Her hands are not being a wall, just are being a barrier. She's showing him that it's okay to have contact with the bit, that nothing bad will happen. She is also not putting too much contact, as you can see if he bends his nose he puts slack in the rope


It infuriates people because she calls it 'Linda's Game of Contact' which insinuates that it her very own idea that she came up with all by herself when in fact all she's trying to show is a basic schooling technique mostly associated with European style riding that we've been using for years 
Its this thing they have (and others like them) where they seem to be giving the impression that they 'invented the wheel' that annoys people because everything they put out there has an original source somewhere else and all they've done is package it in a pretty wrapping of their own and market it
That's how they've made their fortune - coupled with the fact that more and more people are buying horses that they don't have the experience to deal with but for some reason refuse to seek the help of a good hands on trainer so are turning to books and videos for help
I see a lot of NH people pushing groundwork like no one else ever used it - but they did and they do - maybe people only listen to 'salesman' and ignore all the truly great horse people out there who get no credit
I 'snipped' this clip of Jennie Loriston Clarke who is one of the UK's most respected dressage competitors/instructors and breeders of top horses, she is now about 70 so this was taken some time ago way before PP & CA were about but even though she teaches and puts training information out there she wouldn't be claiming this was her own idea for working a horse because its a method that's been around for generations


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## palogal

Draft lover said:


> *Both Pat and Linda can ride very well*, and they can train very well. However, with that said, all they seem to do show off what they know rather than teach what they know. They seem to just ride around an arena talking, almost brainwashing "believers" into thing they are being taught something, but they are really not learning anything. JMO.


No, they don't. Linda rides like a drunk puppet and Pat isn't much better. Linda's 'dressage' is mostly incorrect and sloppy. They may be decent general riders but they are not at all what they claim to be.


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## apachiedragon

No they definitely don't ride correctly, they just do enough stunts and showing off to convince people that they can. And a LOT of that is the pick of horse as well. They will pick the best horse to showcase their supposed skill, so they are seen in the best light possible. For example, my BIL came out to trail ride with us once when my hubby and I were dating. We put him on my QH that was a babysitter and smooth as glass to ride. At the end of the ride, he wanted to try a lope in the arena, so we let him. Now this is a guy that's ridden maybe a handful of times and only on follow-the-leader trails. He ACCIDENTALLY steered into a small jump, maybe 2 ft, and my gelding went over it. He never even got jarred, had to ask us if that was a jump. On a different horse, he would have been face down in the dirt. A really good horse can make anyone look like a good rider. And just because you can stay on doesn't mean you have proper training or form.


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## bsms

Here are screen captures of Linda Parelli riding dressage at a walk:



















"That is what makes Linda Parelli a masterful dressage rider as well as an ambassador for the horse – she combines advanced knowledge of dressage techniques with a deep understanding of horse psychology to achieve ultimate connection...Linda created The Game of Contact after three years of intensive training with Dressage Master Walter Zettl...Lucio says that many dressage lovers don’t understand how Linda became such a good dressage rider over the past few years. He points to her time with Zettl and Linda’s determination to use all the puzzle pieces to engage the horse mentally, emotionally, and physically."

Dressage Olympian Endorses Linda Parelli

I don't ride dressage, so I can't say if she is a "masterful dressage rider...after three years of intensive training with Dressage Master Walter Zettl".


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## horselessmom

bsms said:


> T
> Horses don't bond to someone who plays games. They bond with someone who is reliable and fair.


Not to pick on you, bsms, but the above line is so typical for those who really have no clue about Parelli, their program and principles, that it is laughable. Those who agree with the above only show their utter ignorance about Parelli, nothing else. 

It is like saying, "Fruits aren't healthy for men. Fruits are only healthy for people."

According to your logic, games (as defined by Parelli) are not reliable and fair. However, the very essence of the Parelli games is their reliability and fairness. It is quite obvious that what you mean by "games" is drastically different what Parelli means by "games."


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## Corporal

laurenandtoby said:


> ...you need a VHS player to watch the tape lol). Those basic principles helped me get a runaway, scared to death Arabian actually rideable and able to compete in dressage and go on long trail rides without having a meltdown.


You can buy a converter. We spent 6 months converting our numerous VHS tapes to DVD's, even 4 years ago.
But, you're right about the rest. *It's just simple, hard work to turn out a good horse,* but many people want the bells and whistles, just like their first horse rental rides. Maybe that's why the Parelli's have evolved into what they are today. =/


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## bsms

Horselessmom, I think you missed my point. Ultimately, horses respond based on how you treat them in everything you do. You don't bond with a horse in a round pen. You bond, or not, as the sum of all your interaction with the horse.

You also do not ride the bond, but ride to bond. Training teaches the horse how to respond to cues. The horse can dislike you and still ride OK. Or the horse can think you are the cat's meow, and be dangerous to ride.

Now, why do I judge the Parellis that way? Since I don't do Parelli, I have to go by their advertisements and their YouTube videos, and by what they put on their website. When they ask a crowd "Do you want to bond with your horse? Do you want your horse to like you?", I have to assume that is a big part of their goal - and of the goal of their followers. But there are no shortcuts to having a horse like you, and one horse may like you while another does not. Mia likes me. Trooper tolerates me. I like Mia. I tolerate Trooper. Oh well.

When I see a Craigslist ad for a Parelli trained horse, and the video shows 10 minutes...and the seller never gets ON the horse, I have to assume that is how Parelli training works. When their saddle advertisements - for $4000 saddles - are full of hot air, I have to assume they are. I'm not going to pay them to PROVE to me they are. When Linda Parelli boasts of being a world class dressage rider "after three years of intensive training with Dressage Master Walter Zettl", and rides with her feet stuck forward (which I think is fine by itself, I do it regularly while riding), I draw a conclusion from it.

If someone wants to spend $300 for The Game of Contact:

"After five years of intensive dressage training and mentoring from world renowned dressage master, Walter Zettl, Linda Parelli has decoded the secret of teaching “contact”, the elastic connection between horse and rider via the bit. Discovering this method after years of trying to get her Dutch Warmblood, Remmer, to enjoy and understand contact, Linda has impressed Zettl with her ability to explain the unexplainable. As Mr. Zettl says: _“I am recommending these DVDs to all my students and have sent them all over the world to my friends and dressage connections. Linda is teaching something most experts have not been able to describe and in this way is truly helping me in my work to keep dressage truly classic and beautiful.”

Linda Parelli - The Game of Contact Course | Parelli Natural Horse

_they can. I'll pass on Linda's "explain[ing] the unexplainable", because I think folks have explained riding with contact for hundreds of years, and done so without Linda first "decod[ing] the secret of teaching 'contact'”...just as they have built good-fitting saddles before Linda discovered saddle fit is important.

I guess I'm ungrateful. How did any horse ever live, or any rider ride, before Linda Parelli discovered everything?


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## apachiedragon

Who knows what the choice explanation of the Parelli games are these days, but in the beginning, it was *the 7 games played by horses with horses*. (And in the beginning, it wasn't so touchy-feely and "don't upset the poor horsey, we have to be buddies".) Meaning you were playing horse games with a horse. Doing things with them that they instinctively already know. The reason you see so many pushy, disrespectful Parelli horses is because the people that played the games with them *LOST*. And that made the horse the leader. Therefore, no resect. If you are going to play a game with a horse, you better be **** sure you can win it from the get-go, or don't waste your time. Meaning you HAVE to go in being dominant. How many times have you turned a new horse out in a herd and watched how quickly it escalates into squeals, kicks, and a dominance battle? THOSE are the real games. The "I AM the boss and you WILL get out of my space and do as I say, or I will kick the snot out of you". Not "can we pwetty pweese be fwends"? Horses don't aim to be friends with other horses, they want a defined order of leadership. Not a bond. A leader.


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## Saddlebag

Well, what a trashing of the Parelli's. I've learned from some of their methods. Something I learned years ago, long before I'd ever heard of Parelli, was to never blame the horse. I've rehabbed numerous horses and what it taught me was to rethink if what I was asking wasn't working for the horse. My own horse was a challenge because he would go inside himself and explode when he returned. Everything I knew failed me with this horse. The trick was to keep him from mentally withdrawing, but how? I did find the answer, by doing everything at liberty and giving him the option to leave if he couldn't deal with what I asked. Who'd have thought that liberty would be the breakthrough, not me but it worked along with infinite patience on my part.


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## anndankev

Arab Mama said:


> ... I had to de-Parelli the horse and get her back on him. ....



Just wondering how you went about de-Parelli-izing this horse ?

Touches on a personal experience here.


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## blackdieselpony

when I began riding I sought out a trainer and since I live in a remote town we have 1 dressage, 1 English and 1 natural horsemanship trainer, I wanted to focus on behavioral training and the later had great recommendations. so I began training with her and she turned my horse around. I was 16 and had never had training and my horse was back yard bred plus had not been worked with in over 2 years. I always rode western and my trainer focused alot on teaching me to understand how the horses brain works so I could be better prepared to learn how to assess the situations that I was sometimes in. I never learned how to ride properly and Im sill correcting my seat and so forth but I have excellent communication with my horse and I wouldn't trade that for the world. It taught me that with patience I can get my horse to do anything... Ive had 4 horses ranging from 2yrs old to 16 years old and all of them will do anything asked because 1. they TRUST me and 2. I know how to redirect their mind into a positive mind set. 

*by anything I mean, lakes, ocean waves, crossing deep rivers, cars, parades, rodeos, horseshows, new trails, they all have been great with other horses not aggressive, 2 year old children, and these are horses I got for free or close to free. 

People always comment on how well trained my horses are and it all comes from their mind set and mine.

The only thing I learned from Parrelli is left and right brain introvert and extrovert. And I love double notted halters 

I basically comes down to this: 
UNLESS you are beating and scaring your horse into submission which usually will get you no where, you are working with your horses mind and that's natural enough for me. 
so forget the stereo types Clinton Anderson, parrelli, WHATEVER pick a trainer who YOU like and YOU like the results. Its YOUR horse. 

HAPPY TRAILS


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## huntergrl

Haaaaaaaaaa! Drunk puppet. hilarious. Yes the pictures have the proof. lol. that is def the worst seat I have ever seen


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## palogal

I just don't at all understand why real trainers would even work with her. She must pay them A LOT for them to put up with her sloppiness and BS.


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## jaydee

^^^^^^^^^^^^You'd be amazed what money can buy you.


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## palogal

It must be millions. She has ridden with some famous dressage riders.


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## greentree

I could not watch the entire Proud Meadows video, so could someone please explain WHY she was there? All I saw was her standing next to Hess. 

As Palogal said $$$$$.

Thanks.
Nancy


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## equiniphile

greentree said:


> I could not watch the entire Proud Meadows video, so could someone please explain WHY she was there? All I saw was her standing next to Hess.
> 
> As Palogal said $$$$$.
> 
> Thanks.
> Nancy


I did not watch the entire video, either (I got through about half of it), but it seemed like she was just parroting back whatever he said and agreeing with it. She didn't add anything.


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## peppersgirl

bsms said:


> Here are screen captures of Linda Parelli riding dressage at a walk:
> 
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> 
> GAH! there it is... and this is why they probably make so much money marketing those pads with the shims- they tell people to ride this way and then make money off of sore horses backs..I am by no means a dressage expert, but I have never seen the cutter slouch in dressage before.


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## ICUWest7

equiniphile said:


> I did not watch the entire video, either (I got through about half of it), but it seemed like she was just parroting back whatever he said and agreeing with it. She didn't add anything.


Sorry to just jump in here but i got through the whole video and i have to agree. She really didn't add anything and that's what irked me, like...she has NOTHING interesting to say her about dressage and riding, what she kept pointing out was 'she doesnt punish the horse and i like that' you could tell that he was the expert and she was there as the 'face' to it all because of her already huge following. 
I don't put too much stock in parelli...I worked at a horse rescue where there were a few 'certified parelli' (don't know if they actually were or not) trainers, the horses that they worked with were generally very pushy and rude and they didn't respect people at all, especially around feed time and that's very dangerous when you have inexperienced volunteers, adult and children, going around feeding the horses. I'm not saying the methods wont work for the right horse and person...but you can't treat a horse like they're your friend as the parellis say..you're their leader, or you aren't, it's that simple.


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