# I've Given Up..



## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

After 2 years of working with chance.. from training her to ride.. to trails.. beach rides.... you would think that wild edge would simmer down.....right?

Wrong...

For the last time Chance has thrown me...
I tacked her up to go on a trail with 2 other boarders.. and shes been down this trail to the beach 2 other times perfectly fine.. So i thought it would be fine.... once again.. wrong....She was fine till she got to teh open feild.. then lipazanna leaped... bucked... reared then ran for the hills... I lost my stirrups but stayed on.. once I got her stopped I got off cause I could feel those back legs tensing to go for another run.. I walked her around a bit then tried to get on her again... I walked her maybe 4-5 steps and again she tried .. so I decided I just didnt want to do it so I got off and we ended up walking home. I checked the saddle and underneath.. and there was nothing there to set her off. 

So I decided okay arena work it is then..For teh first 30 mins of flat work she was perfect, nice transitions and bending through her turns. So I brought out a small line of jumps and she was loving it jumped the first few times GREAT but fast forward a few jumps.. Since she was asking to jump I took her idea and ran with it.. well BAD idea... I went to jump her over the smaller 1' jump that led into the line... we trotted up to it nicely...took off nicely.. andddd landed with a bang.... she bucked twice .. I stayed on, she twisted her whole body threw her head up then slammed the breaks and I flew off almost hitting the wall... she stayed with me..great. I landed really hard on my back .. and right now if I breath in to deeply it hurts. People who were watching even said there was nothing I did to cause what happened she just got an idea in her head and got over excited.

This was just a reply of last year... and I was, well still am crushed. I put 2 years of work into this mare and shes thrown me once to many.. Its not worth getting seriously hurt anymore. I know falling is part of the sport... but NOT when the horse is going bucking brunco on you ... usually for a spook or a refusal.. or something.... not like this.

The person who rode her afterwards for me said that I should probably just sell her as a endurance prospect because she believes that thats what shes made for. She has the power, the althetaism[sp?] to excel in that. She just needs to be finished off. 

Ive admitted defeat....:-(
I love her so much  But I cant do it..


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## Jillyann (Mar 31, 2009)

AWh, first off HUGS! I cant imagine what its like to be in your shoes. Have you tried sending her to a professional for a few weeks/months?


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

It was an option, but my mom doesn't want to put the money into a trainer with no garentees.

Thank you for the hug btw


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

I think if you do sell her, and she DOES excel somewhere, you'll be much happier knowing she's happy. Make sure you find a new owner who is willing to keep in touch with you. 

I'm also glad my parents accept my stubborn streak and are willing to go half and half on Ice's training. Maybe thats something you could try?


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

HaF
Give it time. You have fallen off. Maybe a little shock. 
Have you anyone else to do a swop of horses with?
How tense are you?

I don't know where you are based but around here the grass has been sugared up by frost. That affects horses and after all Spring is not that far away and for a mare that is the most exciting part of the year.
Just maybe she is a victim of her own hormones.

There comes a time when a horse proves to be wrong for the rider. I, of all people, know that. But it is a gradual realization not an impulsive reaction.

Take your time. 
Tell the horse what a silly mare she has been.

Barry G


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## SydLovesJackers (Jan 18, 2010)

Awww. We sent my horse off to boot camp and when he came back he was a different horse. When he came back I lunged him for 10-15 minutes before riding him to get rid of his excess energy. Maybe you could try that? 

Good luck!


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Good luck! I hope you can find a horse that is easier for you to get along with. Sometimes you just have to cut your losses. Many times horses like her excell at something when they get a rider that can handle them because they have no quit and are usualy more intelligent than average.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

This isn't the first time. Shes way to unpredictable. When you even start to let your guard down she pulls this stuff. 

I just dont feel like its worth it.

She may work better with a different owner, I feel like i've given her everything I can.


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

What a bummer. I know how much effort you have put into this horse. I do agree with you that there's no sense in putting yourself in more danger. Maybe she would make a fantastic endurance horse like your friend said. That's the one real question mark when we get a new horse. Will it want to do what we plan for it? I know it sucks, but maybe you'll both be happier if she gets to go run around for 30 miles at a stretch and you can find a horse that likes what you like.


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

Sending e-hugs and good vibes your way! Sounds like you've both had a really hard day, especially after the good news that you shared a few threads back. No matter what you decide, I hope things start looking up for you and Chance.

On the topic of trainers, what about finding a trainer for both of you? Maybe if the trainer would be a positive experience and opportunity for you as well as Chance your family would be more receptive to the idea. That way, even if things still don't work out with Chance _you_ are still "guaranteed" (with the right trainer) good experience, experience that will stay with you whether you move on to a new horse or stay with Chance. Just a thought, a way you may be able to compromise on a trainer. Some might offer discounts on training fees for stable work as well; you never know. :wink:

Here's hoping that things look up. If it makes you feel any better, I know I couldn't have stuck on through that rodeo! Kudos to you there!


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

So many tears.. blood.. and sweat has been put into her training.. and shes just pushed me over the edge. 

Shes a gorgeous horse but I cant let that get in my way.

Thank you Scoutrider- thats one reason why im even more hurt is because of how she just got over a naughty streak then fell right back into a worse one. 

Im gonna try out that mare in the ad I posted a while ago and see how I like her.


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## ariielise (Nov 3, 2009)

Some horses just seem to take one step forward, then two steps back. It sounds as though you have done your best to turn the horse around, and now it is time for someone else to take it from there. Sometimes, even if it is hard, a new horse is the best thing for YOU. Good luck with whatever you do.


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

((HUGS)) I know how you feel, truly. I have a mare that I know is extremely talented, but I cannot get the best out of her. She needs someone who really GETS her. It's not fair to her or to me to keep pretending that all is well and we get along perfectly.

So, give it a couple of weeks, do some more riding and thinking. If after that you feel that you still need to move on, then by all means do it. 

Sorry


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## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

HorsesAreForever said:


> After 2 years of working with chance.. from training her to ride.. to trails.. beach rides.... you would think that wild edge would simmer down.....right?
> 
> Wrong...
> 
> ...


Rough situation. Would you have the option to send her to a feedlot? thats my solution when I find a horse with similar if not worst problems. She will be worked very hard, every day by cowboys that don't get scared or worried by nothing. It will give her some work ethics and this stupidness out of her. If you were to sell her, you would have a lot of problems because she is not beginner safe.

You should ask around, I think it would be a really good solution. She sounds to nice of a horse to let her go.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

I dont believe that theres any feed lots. 


I also know if I think about it much.. ill back out.. Im so bonded to her and we've gotten so close.. but im afraid that shes just gonna put me in the hospital one of these times. 

((HUGS)) Thanks eventerdrew


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## mkyacrm (Jan 31, 2010)

My horse was the same way, maybe not to the extent, but he was horrible. I stayed off of him for a long time, and didnt ride again till he was about 8, and now he does jumping speed and anything under the sun. I don't remember if you said how old she is, but some horses need a lot more time than others. I would suggest letting her go for a while and just be a horse than go back out


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Shes 6 years old. And yeah Id do that if I wasn't paying board for her.
I mean I could do ground work with her if I wanted to wait it out.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

HorsesAreForever said:


> I dont believe that theres any feed lots.


Where do you live? There are feedlots almost everywhere.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Maine.


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## Rebellion (May 20, 2009)

I know this horse personally and she has hurt Michele many times. I've seen Michele take some pretty nasty falls from Chance. Yes, Chance can be a great horse and I've witnessed it for myself. BUT, with Chance being so up and down she is not safe for what Michele wants to do. Michele has lost out on not being able to show her own horse and having to show a different horse because her horse is so up and down. One ride shes amazing next shes out to kill you. 


One a side note: A feedlot are you guys nuts! I wouldnt send the worst of worst horse their!


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Rebellion said:


> One a side note: A feedlot are you guys nuts! I wouldnt send the worst of worst horse their!


Not a horse feedlot, a cattle feedlot. In the west and midwest they have very large feedlots and use horses to sort and move the cattle and to doctor when necessary. This puts a very good handle on a horse very quickly. Maine, however, is probably a little short on feedlots.

I think she is doing the right thing getting rid of her. Someone with more experience or more money for extensive training will get along really well with her. 

The first rule in horsemanship is *DON'T GET KILLED*!


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> The first rule in horsemanship is *DON'T GET KILLED*!


Amen!


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## Rebellion (May 20, 2009)

I dont think she should get "rid" of her I think she should place her in a well loving home with someone who can channel Chances energy. In my honest opinion I believe Michele could keep on fighting the battle. But, is it worth it? Probably not. Knowing Chances "childhood" she has many scars that will take a while to overcome. Right now she is not the horse Michele needs and I hope she can place her in a correct home.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

I think she should sell her to the first person that thinks they can handle her.


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## Walkamile (Dec 29, 2008)

You're right there Kevinshorses, Maine is a lot short on horse feed lots! :lol: 
HAF, a client just went through what you are experiencing. Her horse would do wonderfully, and then just explode! The trainer worked her and over time even he admitted that the horse would probably do this her whole life. She originally was a jockey ridden race horse and was tossed out because of her inconsistencies. 

So fast forward, this once confident rider was frustrated and reduced to hardly riding. After the last fall, she decided that's it, this horse is gone. She had her for 3 years, and while there was some improvements, it was never consistent. So her farrier found her a wonderful ex race horse, standard bred, and she is regaining her confidence and love of riding again. You can actually see the joy in her face when she talks about this horse. 

Her mare is now being free leased to a 19 year old with experience. She is having a ball, loves the 'challenge' and as of yet the mare has not exploded. Who knows, maybe the personalities of both are a match. Or one of these days, look out. But the girl knows the history, and thinks it's all the other riders issues. Whatever.

My point is, this client is loving the new horse and he has a wonderful home. It was a win/win and the girl is enjoying the mare and the mare seems to be adjusting well. Who knows?

Lots of horses out there. Find one that you can enjoy whatever type of riding you want to do. Life is way too short and so is the time we have to spend with our horses.

Good luck to you, keep us posted on what you do.

Who knows, maybe you'll find one that you can take trail riding with me here in central Maine. Wouldn't that be a hoot!


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## SavvyHearts (Sep 29, 2009)

I agree with Kevin...I think she is doing the right thing because she isn't ready for a horse like that.

As mean as a feedlot sounds is it any worse to sell her and possibly have someone that over rates their ability, like many do, and have them get hurt? If Chance is as bad and "unpredictable" as HAF claims, I very well doubt she'll be able to get anything more than $500 for her. I wouldn't even pay for a horse like that. I don't think she's bad or unpredictable...I think that there are thresholds that she is being pushed through and her signs of saying "hey I don't like this" are being ignored...and bucking is the only way she knows how to get HAFs attention.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Thank you Matt. Like I told you earlier you've been extremely supportive. And Im glad to have you as a friend. 

Im sure if I really wanted to I could win this... but I live by the first rule of horsemanship  I feel like if I keep it up its just gonna get worse. Chance and I are great on ground but I cant seem to work for me in saddle. Ive gotten her to w.t.c and jump but is ANY of it consistant.. not at all.. and shes just WAY to unpredictable.. and when I start to let my gaurd down I get hurt... and maybe thats my fault... but I DONT want to have a horse I cant relax with and enjoy.

And Savvy .. 4-5 people who know her personally and see how she moves and rides she could go for 3k  Shes a **** good horse. And I hate to let her go cause she has MAJOR talent.

I think me and Chance are completely opposite from each other and we want totally different things so we clash

Walkamile- If I find one ill deff get in contact. Id love to!


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## SavvyHearts (Sep 29, 2009)

HorsesAreForever said:


> Thank you Matt. Like I told you earlier you've been extremely supportive. And Im glad to have you as a friend.
> 
> Im sure if I really wanted to I could win this... but I live by the first rule of horsemanship  I feel like if I keep it up its just gonna get worse. Chance and I are great on ground but I cant seem to work for me in saddle. Ive gotten her to w.t.c and jump but is ANY of it consistant.. not at all.. and shes just WAY to unpredictable.. and when I start to let my gaurd down I get hurt... and maybe thats my fault... but I DONT want to have a horse I cant relax with and enjoy.
> 
> And Savvy .. 4-5 people who know her personally and see how she moves and rides she could go for 3k


The horse market is down, unless you lie about her to a prospective buyer you will not get 3k. Nice mover or not, an "unpredictable" horse as you say (and I do not believe that she's unpredictable...I think you ignore her quiet warnings) is not going to get 3k

Totally opposites don't "clash" it's the person who doesn't want to change and it's all "my way or not at all" that makes the clash


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## tealamutt (Aug 21, 2009)

oh HAF, big hugs to you. I have no advice either way, I just wanted you to know that I am sending happy thoughts to you because I know you have been on an emotional and physical roller coaster with this mare. I know you won't make a rash decision, you have been working your way through her naughty streaks so hard and weighing options for a long long time. I know your heart is broken, hopefully no ribs to go along with it! I'm so sorry you're going through this... more big hugs.


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## thunderhooves (Aug 9, 2009)

^^amen again to savvyhearts!


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## Rebellion (May 20, 2009)

First, If you love your horse like Michele loves Chance she should not give her up to the first person that "thinks" they can handle her. I know for a fact she wants a fit home. IF you love and care about your horse you would want a fit home. If Chance got in the wrong hands the situation could be 10x worse. 

Second SavvyHearts should just change her name to Negative Nancy


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

HorsesAreForever said:


> Im sure if I really wanted to I could win this... but I live by the first rule of horsemanship  I feel like if I keep it up its just gonna get worse. Chance and I are great on ground but I cant seem to work for me in saddle. Ive gotten her to w.t.c and jump but is ANY of it consistant.. not at all.. and shes just WAY to unpredictable.. and when I start to let my gaurd down I get hurt... and maybe thats my fault... *but I DONT want to have a horse I cant relax with and enjoy*.


I'm with you 100% on that. Everyone I know who throws a leg over a horse does it for enjoyment, even trainers who are riding some specific horse express a love for what they do. I know if I didn't love it I wouldn't have horses. Who would? I spent this morning chipping ice out of buckets, chipping ice out of my water source to refill the heated buckets, and chipping last night's frozen poo out of the stalls. For some reason I love it, and that sweet little fuzzy nose blowing in my ear and that feeling of partnership on the trail or in the arena makes every shovelful worth it with interest. 

I'm sure you can find someone for Chance who can live with her quirks, or can give her a job that keeps her busy enough not to explode, and I'm sure that you can find a good horse who meets your needs, who you can relax around and enjoy. Something along the lines of the feedlot idea sounds good; give her a job that keeps her thinking too much to spazz out. I said it before and I'll say it again, that jumper mare from your other thread looks well worth a peek.

Best of luck to you, I know that you will make the decision that is best for both of you. In the meantime, be safe. :wink:


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## SavvyHearts (Sep 29, 2009)

Rebellion said:


> First, If you love your horse like Michele loves Chance she should not give her up to the first person that "thinks" they can handle her. I know for a fact she wants a fit home. IF you love and care about your horse you would want a fit home. If Chance got in the wrong hands the situation could be 10x worse.
> 
> Second SavvyHearts should just change her name to Negative Nancy


Sorry if I'm being realistic...show me one person that would buy an "unpredictable" horse that is as "bad" and "naughty" as Chance for 3k  I can't think of any.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Savvy get off my back, im SICK of you okay... you dont know me nor chance.. and your acting like u know all.

ty ty ty teal  No ribs  But yeah its been a rough road. *hugs*

I dont want to let her go but at the same time I do. Im scared of whats gonna happen when sehs gone.. when that woman got off her.. she wasn't even there.. never moved a muscle and thats not chance.. sehs usually full of life... so that scared me seeing her like that  This mare is so sensative to whats done to her.


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## Rebellion (May 20, 2009)

First off I know for a fact someone would pay that. Chance is a TON of fun to play with. She loves ground work games and I've played with her in the roundpen and it's a blast. Once her energy is channeled shes great. I've seen Michele jump her 3 feet bareback and jump courses with her. Shes a type of horse that needs to be busy and steadily worked on a reg basis. Have you ever seen ads that state "needs to be ridden on a reg basis" Because I sure have. 

And when someone is having a hard time you should try not to be so blunt about things and show some compassion for them.


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## SavvyHearts (Sep 29, 2009)

HorsesAreForever said:


> Savvy get off my back, im SICK of you okay... you dont know me nor chance.. and your acting like u know all.
> 
> ty ty ty teal  No ribs  But yeah its been a rough road. *hugs*
> 
> I dont want to let her go but at the same time I do.


when did I say i knew you or chance?! But I know the horse market  If you can get 3k for Chance I can get at least 15k for each of my horses 

I'm just saying that no one is going to pay for a horse that you consider unpredictable and crazy and naughty....unless you hide the fact which is not right


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## SavvyHearts (Sep 29, 2009)

Rebellion said:


> First off I know for a fact someone would pay that. Chance is a TON of fun to play with. She loves ground work games and I've played with her in the roundpen and it's a blast. Once her energy is channeled shes great. I've seen Michele jump her 3 feet bareback and jump courses with her. Shes a type of horse that needs to be busy and steadily worked on a reg basis. Have you ever seen ads that state "needs to be ridden on a reg basis" Because I sure have.
> 
> And when someone is having a hard time you should try not to be so blunt about things and show some compassion for them.


oh I'm sorry....HAF you can definitely get 3k or more for your "unpredictable" mare...infact it's every persons dream...to get bucked off randomly during rides. :wink:


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

I never said she was crazy.

Shes a very solid horse, just has a side that comes in every once in a while that I cant always handle. 

And I would never lie. They would be riding them thereselves.

And ty Matt its good to have someone on here that knows me in PERSON!  lol and SEEN what chance has done and can do.


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## Romantic Lyric (Dec 31, 2009)

I agree with Savvy, all the talent in the world doesn't mean a thing if the wrong attitude is there. I would try to be a "motivated seller" if you want to get yourself on a different horse because she's not going to go for $3,000 unless one of those people who know her "personally" and thinks she's worth that much wants her. Any ad you post, if you describe her honestly, with a $3,000 price tag isn't going to get much response in today's horse market.

HAF, it seems that you have a very up and down relationship with Chance. One day you post about the horrible riding experience you had with her and the next she's like a different horse. Of course there are always set-backs with horses, but it seems as if she's having major relapses. I think coming to the realization that maybe you need a different horse and she needs a different rider is awesome. I hope you find your dream horse.


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## thunderhooves (Aug 9, 2009)

*sigh* another adolesent, am I right? A thing to remember for this forum in the future:
Anything you post can and will be held against you. haha, jk. now seriously:
When you post a thread on here, be prepared to hear other peoples opinions. Its life. People more experienced than you may post and some less may post. We all have equal rights as humans to post our opinions. 

Ok, now i have a Q for you: Why did you just post this on here? Asking advice? becasue thats what people gave you. If you wanted to vent or rant, go to the Horse Talk section. Otherwise, do not blow off advise people give you, and even insults, because they may mean something.


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## thunderhooves (Aug 9, 2009)

while im typing 5 people post! wow, anyway, some things I noticed.......... do you do natural horsemanship with her? 
Also, first you say she is cmpletely unpredictable, and then you say shes solid except for sometimes, whcih happens quite frequently? I think you exxagerated in the Offic. Post just a tad.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

I didnt exaggerate anything. 

Shes a solid horse when she wants to be. Nothing will set her off and sometimes u have to push hard to get her to do something.. then other days its like her tail is on fire..


I do a mix of traditional/NH

I use to do just parelli just not anymore. 

Im looking at whats more important... how much that horse means to me relationship wise.. and how much I mean to her...I mean i know how much i mean to her, I can see if when she actually looks at me in the eye.. or lets me put my head on hers and just kiss between her ears.... and like a few people have been asking.. am I willing to give that up just to show... or jump?


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## SavvyHearts (Sep 29, 2009)

a solid horse will not just "snap".

Remember that horses change every single second. Something that bothers them one day, won't bother them for a week, then will bother them again. Assess the horse every single minute if you have to. Listen to very subtle things and try to find them


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## Romantic Lyric (Dec 31, 2009)

You're not willing to give up your relationship with her to "show or jump," but how about to give it up so that she doesn't break your spine and paralyze you the next time she throws you into a wall?

If all you wanted Chance to be was a big dog to "have a relationship with" - to follow you around and be sweet on the ground, she'd be perfect.

If you want something safe to ride that you can "relax on," you probably need a different horse.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

exactly thats the other side I have to consider.


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## Rebellion (May 20, 2009)

I've had a recent change of heart on what you should do with Chance. I think you should stick it out. It does not look like progress has been made but remember when you first got her how awful she was? What do you thinks going to happen if she gets in the wrong hands? Shes a very special horse with a ton of talent that needs to be brought out in her. Find alternative ways to challenge her mind. Also, why dont you look into doing paddock board instead of keeping her inside? It has made a huge difference on one of my horses. You've come to far to give up now Michele. When shes a "made" horse and you need something else to continue your riding then thats when you should sell her. Shes a very special horse that brings out the best in you. Keep fighting your battles seek help from friends. It'll get you furthor. Keep heading foward and dont look back it'll all be worth it in the end.


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## Rebellion (May 20, 2009)

Also I know many others are going to disagree with me but I personally have seen you two work as a team. I have insight on the situation they dont.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> I've had a recent change of heart on what you should do with Chance. I think you should stick it out. It does not look like progress has been made but remember when you first got her how awful she was? What do you thinks going to happen if she gets in the wrong hands? Shes a very special horse with a ton of talent that needs to be brought out in her. Find alternative ways to challenge her mind. Also, why dont you look into doing paddock board instead of keeping her inside? It has made a huge difference on one of my horses. You've come to far to give up now Michele. When shes a "made" horse and you need something else to continue your riding then thats when you should sell her. Shes a very special horse that brings out the best in you. Keep fighting your battles seek help from friends. It'll get you furthor. Keep heading foward and dont look back it'll all be worth it in the end.


I disagree. If it has come to the point where you are afraid for your safety, you NEED to sell the horse. There are plenty of people out there who are willing to take risks on horses that may be dangerous.

HAF - I stand by my post in the other thread about selling chance. You aren't enjoying OR advancing your riding by keeping chance and doing the same things hoping she will get better.

Insanity is doing the same thing over again expecting different results.

You need to get her to a home where they will try different things and who knows? Maybe she will find her niche. And you need to get a horse that you can enjoy and progress on.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

Rebellion said:


> I've had a recent change of heart on what you should do with Chance. I think you should stick it out. It does not look like progress has been made but remember when you first got her how awful she was? What do you thinks going to happen if she gets in the wrong hands? Shes a very special horse with a ton of talent that needs to be brought out in her. Find alternative ways to challenge her mind. Also, why dont you look into doing paddock board instead of keeping her inside? It has made a huge difference on one of my horses. You've come to far to give up now Michele. When shes a "made" horse and you need something else to continue your riding then thats when you should sell her. Shes a very special horse that brings out the best in you. Keep fighting your battles seek help from friends. It'll get you furthor. Keep heading foward and dont look back it'll all be worth it in the end.


Although you do know her better than any of us, I think this advice is wrong. It may be a fact that she has come a long way and that she is less dangerous, but she is still dangerous. Of course, all of our horses can kill us, but we'd like to think we as riders at least have enough sense to call it quits when a blatant attempt on our life, such as being thrown into a wall, is made. I have to ask, have you ever ridden Chance during one of these fits? Have you put your life under that horses whim and hoped for the best? Again, you know HAF better than we all do, and I don't mean to rub you the wrong way. I've just been this close to being killed by a horse...I was thrown off a rescue horses back when I was 16 while we were on a trail and something mysterious spooked her. She not only dumped me, which cause me to break my wrist so severely I needed surgery, but she decided she was going to turn around and come back for me. If the woman who had been with us had not headed her off with her horse, I'd probably be dead because I was trampled. I took a three year break before going back to horses because that event was still with me.

Not knocking on HAF, but Chance just might be too much horse for her to handle. There is no shame in admitting a fault, it will eventually make you a better rider, as I'm sure the lessons Chance have given HAF have already done for her. Instead of risking her life to ride, she should be passing on her experience to a horse with less baggage, and making that horse the best it can be.

I do agree that pasture board might be better suited for her than stall life. I know my guy is a complete jerk after 12 hours in a stall, but he was such a sweetheart at his previous home, where he was outside all of the time.


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## Rebellion (May 20, 2009)

justsambam08 said:


> I do agree that pasture board might be better suited for her than stall life. I know my guy is a complete jerk after 12 hours in a stall, but he was such a sweetheart at his previous home, where he was outside all of the time.


Michele and I have been talking about this and she stated that Chance hates coming inside! So that could help.


She can handle Chance very well actually. Chance is worse for other people then she is Michele. But keep in mind Chance is AMAZING when shes not in one of her "moods." Honestly I'm not just saying this. Beginner riders have been on her before. I think if Chance was placed in a new home it would make things worse to be honest. She is very attached to Michele as Michele rescued her from a bad place. She was also abused as a baby which has deff left some big scars. Shes a very sweet sweet mare and I wish you guys could all meet her and see the partnership they do have because you would root for Michele to keep pushing at it. 

I'm a 16 year old male rider. I ride dressage and hunter jumper and I have two horses of my own. I have been their, I have had battles with my horse, Ive been thrown hard. My horses are 3 and 5 there both young. I know what its like to be thrown and hurt. Ive been in the ER many times. In the end its all worth it.


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

While all that may very well be true, rebellion, the fact is that HAF posted not just to you/sought just your advice, but asked of the input of many. Whether or not you agree with what has been said in this thread is of no importance - it is what HAF can take away from what is said.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

If your horses are sending you to the ER many times you need to think about getting some help or finding different horses as well. I am a professional trainer and I have only been to the ER 3 times in my life for horse related injuries. I ride many different types of horses and let me tell you that falling off does not make you tougher or a better rider or a real cowboy. It makes you hurt and it means you are doing things wrong.


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## Rebellion (May 20, 2009)

Well then this thread is pointless because I know deep down she is not ready to part with Chance.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Justsambam - Thank you so much for your reply its nice to know that there are others that have been in this same scary place. Chance is A LOT of horse in a small package. And at times WAY to much for me to handle. I've learnt so much from her. And maybe shes taught me all she can... But Like Matt said, I have put 2 beginners on her, one leading and the other I let her go off on her own and chance was great. 

I emailed my BO about pasture board, I want to see if anything changes in chances attitude if shes just outside where she likes to be.. if not.. I will call it quits and move on. Because I DONT want to get hurt to where I need to go to the hospital or ER. Ive been seriously injured by her twice. First time last year sprained wrist, second time me whole right? side was torn up and blood gushing nose.. so I wont even let me self go there again. 

Ill work with all my options before I make any decisions I may regret. Im still gonna go see that mare I found just for the heck of it, because I reallyyyyy like her and if I can I may take her on a trial. 

Thank you EVERYONE for replying I REALLY appricate it. Ill keep you guys updated on whats going on.


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## Rebellion (May 20, 2009)

Actually I hardly fall. I've fallen once this year. I have never been to the ER because of one of my horses. Its been horses if assisted training with. These are my horses that I've trained all by myself.


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## Roperchick (Feb 1, 2010)

i dont know anything about this mare but sometimes the activities just dont suite the horse. maybe you could try doing something totally opposite of what you always ride. for example instead of showing a horse try doing cow work. rodeo horses sometimes like showing better vice versa


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Justsambam - Thank you so much for your reply its nice to know that there are others that have been in this same scary place. Chance is A LOT of horse in a small package. And at times WAY to much for me to handle. I've learnt so much from her. And maybe shes taught me all she can... But Like Matt said, I have put 2 beginners on her, one leading and the other I let her go off on her own and chance was great. 

I emailed my BO about pasture board, I want to see if anything changes in chances attitude if shes just outside where she likes to be.. if not.. I will call it quits and move on. Because I DONT want to get hurt to where I need to go to the hospital or ER. Ive been seriously injured by her twice. First time last year sprained wrist, second time me whole right? side was torn up and blood gushing nose.. so I wont even let me self go there again. 

Ill work with all my options before I make any decisions I may regret. Im still gonna go see that mare I found just for the heck of it, because I reallyyyyy like her and if I can I may take her on a trial. 

Thank you EVERYONE for replying I REALLY appricate it. Ill keep you guys updated on whats going on. 

Roper- Chance LOVES to run anything with running LOL!


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Well regardless of who owns them you were the one that threw your leg over them so my opinion still stands. A real horseman isn't the guy that rides the rough horses. A real horseman is the guy that takes the rough off the horses then rides them.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> In the end its all worth it.


Not if you are dead or crippled.

I read a really good article once about how horsepeople have this ego - It tells us that no one in the world could possibly care for our horse or understand them as well as we can.

Realistically, that is far from the truth. This forum is a great example - there are many, many great homes out there for every kind of horse. 

I know, because I was like it! I had a very sensative horse, who was abused, and who could have killed someone if they didn't treat him the right way. I was terrified of selling him as I was sure I wouldn't find someone to understand him as I had.

Guess what? I did. He is now going through the grades eventing with a young girl who I have known for a long time. They are getting along great.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> A real horseman isn't the guy that rides the rough horses. A real horseman is the guy that takes the rough off the horses then rides them.


That is a very wise statement, Kevin. Haven't heard it put quite like that before.


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## Rebellion (May 20, 2009)

You guys know the more you say how she should just sell her the more shes going to want to prove you all wrong. Thats how teen minds think


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## Rebellion (May 20, 2009)

Oh and I took the rough off both my horses their cowboy. My Qh gave a young lady perm nerve damage in her right hand. My draft x was spooky and reared and bucked like no tomorrow. In the end its worth it. I still have problems like today my draftx started rearing when I simply put my leg on. But I work threw the problems and in the end great results come fourth.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Then I guess you telling her to keep her will make her want to sell her?



> if not.. I will call it quits and move on. Because I DONT want to get hurt to where I need to go to the hospital or ER.


Or not...


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

lol just in case my post is being ignored 

Justsambam - Thank you so much for your reply its nice to know that there are others that have been in this same scary place. Chance is A LOT of horse in a small package. And at times WAY to much for me to handle. I've learnt so much from her. And maybe shes taught me all she can... But Like Matt said, I have put 2 beginners on her, one leading and the other I let her go off on her own and chance was great. 

I emailed my BO about pasture board, I want to see if anything changes in chances attitude if shes just outside where she likes to be.. if not.. I will call it quits and move on. Because I DONT want to get hurt to where I need to go to the hospital or ER. Ive been seriously injured by her twice. First time last year sprained wrist, second time me whole right? side was torn up and blood gushing nose.. so I wont even let me self go there again. 

Ill work with all my options before I make any decisions I may regret. Im still gonna go see that mare I found just for the heck of it, because I reallyyyyy like her and if I can I may take her on a trial. 

Thank you EVERYONE for replying I REALLY appricate it. Ill keep you guys updated on whats going on.

I think i might have that ego problem LOL!! I think thats why I have a hard time selling..


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## Rebellion (May 20, 2009)

Do you know how many times she has said she was going to sell her. She has even listed her for sale before. You know what? This time she didnt even list her. Thats how I know. I know she wont call it quits and I can put money on that.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> Oh and I took the rough off both my horses their cowboy. My Qh gave a young lady perm nerve damage in her right hand. My draft x was spooky and reared and bucked like no tomorrow. In the end its worth it. I still have problems like today my draftx started rearing when I simply put my leg on. But I work threw the problems and in the end great results come fourth.


Or you die/are crippled. There is no honour or proof of horsemanship in sticking with a horse that is NOT a match for you through sheer doggedness or pride.

Kevin has about 30x more horse experience than you, or I, or HAF. I would LISTEN to what he has to say if I were you.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> I think i might have that ego problem LOL!! I think thats why I have a hard time selling..


I'll find the post for you to read if you like. The comments in response to it are great to read and might really help you with your decision.


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## Rebellion (May 20, 2009)

I know when I'm right and when I'm right I dont back down.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Id love to read it. 

And yes matt Ive put her up for sale multiple times ill admit.. because everytime I do.. it gets better.. but what happened today really pushed the line... 3! Time she tried to get me off.


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## RadHenry09 (Mar 22, 2009)

They may be all she needs , I feel sometimes that my horses would do so much better on pasture board although I like the fact I have the stalls for them in extreme weather. That isnt a choice at my barn , there are no run ins for them in the pastures either.
I def have felt the same way as you........
I sent my horse to trainer for 60days under saddle work and the trainer told me once " There is a rider for every horse and a horse for every rider." 

I have a very good friend who is helping me who is a cert. riding instructor and although I dont have a lot of money to pay her right now I am helping her out with other things. Bartering sometimes pays off too!
Please keep us updated and stay safe!


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> I know when I'm right and when I'm right I dont back down.


I am going to laugh SO HARD if you end up wrong. Pride comes before a fall.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Ill try the pasture board and see where we end up. Like I said the last thing I want is to ruin my life bring crippled because I was to stubborn to let go of my ego.I tend to have a big one.

Thank you for all the support.


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## Rebellion (May 20, 2009)

I know I wont. Michele is a good friend and we talk every night. I know deep down she cant let her go. All the good times out rule the bad. One would think adults on here would be more mature but I guess I'm wrong.


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## Rebellion (May 20, 2009)

Horses have bad days just like humans. Today was one of Chances. I can almost bet next ride will be a good one.


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## RadHenry09 (Mar 22, 2009)

Would there be some way perhaps you could help her with her horse?


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Me and Matt would probably clash at some point. Hes a good friend but sometimes we think differently. He knows that lol


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## RadHenry09 (Mar 22, 2009)

oh ok , just a thought


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## Rebellion (May 20, 2009)

Yes we are actually planning on getting together soon so I can watch them interact together under saddle. We just recently took a group lesson together and although we are both very different riders we tend to help each other out a ton when we have problems with our own horses. She gives me tons of advice and I give her tons of advice. The reason I'm being so thick headed about this is because I know she does not want to get rid of Chance. Chance is a sweet mare who will end up working out for Michele.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Of course they do. Yet not one of my horses has ever bucked, reared, or done anything to unseat me on a bad day. The most they will do is make cranky faces. They know their boundaries. A bad day is NO excuse for behaviour that is dangerous for both rider and horse.

How will you feel if HAF keeps Chance on your advice, and ends up being crippled? Safety HAS to come before any other considerations. It is immature to look at it any other way. No bond is special enough to endanger your health. Riding is dangerous enough as it is - Life is too short to double that risk with a dangerous horse.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Rebellion said:


> Oh and I took the rough off both my horses their cowboy. My Qh gave a young lady perm nerve damage in her right hand. My draft x was spooky and reared and bucked like no tomorrow. In the end its worth it. I still have problems like today my draftx started rearing when I simply put my leg on. But I work threw the problems and in the end great results come fourth.


My point was if you had done the work right they wouldn't have reared and bucked like no tomorrow. Permanent nerve damage in your right hand is bad enough but what if it was permanent nerve damage to your spine? Everytime I have a horse buck with me rather I stay on or not I consider the ride a failure. If I had prepared the horse properly and used a little more feel and a little less strenght then I would have know the horse was scared and prevented the whole thing. 


You also should look into the proper usage of thier, they're and there as well as threw and through. It might help you sound a little more intelligent.


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## Rebellion (May 20, 2009)

And yes as she stated we would clash at some point but we both have tons of different advise we share with each other.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

HAF - Here are some more posts from that blog for you to read. You can tell I liek the way this lady thinks :] These are about a horse she attempted to train - Captain, but who was dangerous.

mugwump chronicles: Captain


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## Rebellion (May 20, 2009)

Sorry I'm 16 years old still in high school still learning


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

My wife teaches 4th grade and I'm pretty sure they already covered that.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Thank you WS!


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## Rebellion (May 20, 2009)

Maybe your wife should teach you some of the manners she teaches the 4th graders then. Makes you sound like a big man fighting with a 16 year old now doesn't it.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

You're right. I'm done with you.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Makes you sound like an immature teen insulting Kevin.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Rebellion said:


> Maybe your wife should teach you some of the manners she teaches the 4th graders then. Makes you sound like a big man fighting with a 16 year old now doesn't it.


If we lived in a day and age where 16 year olds knew how to respect their elders and not act like uppity snot nose punks, the point would be moot now wouldn't it darlin?


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

No worries, HAF.


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## Rebellion (May 20, 2009)

Actually I've been decent. If I was immature I would be a lot more rude. I have respect for my elders and the reason as stated I'm so thick headed about this is because it's simply stupid. I can not tell you how many times Michele has said she's going to sell Chance. She even looked at another horse before that she liked but she still didnt sell Chance. I guess I'm honestly telling you your wasting your time because shes not going to sell her. I'm really not trying to be rude and I really do look up to older and more advanced riders and I think I may have rubbed most of you the wrong way. I STRONGLY feel that this is just another vent because shes upset she got thrown today.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

That was really interesting WS explained a lot of things thats going on. 

I really do want to try the pasture board and see if things change. But Im really gonna try and let go of the ego, I know thats what has made me keep her this long... and maybe thats whats pushing me now.... 

Safety does come first. Im only 16 and have the rest of my life in front of me.. and im not gonna ruin it cause I was to stupid to admit I couldnt train her. 

She tried to dump me 3 times in one day... thats the thing thats keeping me directly in the middle..


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## RadHenry09 (Mar 22, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> My point was if you had done the work right they wouldn't have reared and bucked like no tomorrow. Permanent nerve damage in your right hand is bad enough but what if it was permanent nerve damage to your spine? Everytime I have a horse buck with me rather I stay on or not I consider the ride a failure. If I had prepared the horse properly and used a little more feel and a little less strenght then I would have know the horse was scared and prevented the whole thing.
> 
> 
> QUOTE]
> ...


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

wild_spot said:


> Makes you sound like an immature teen insulting Kevin.


You see the problem with teenage boys (and I'm sure that this applied to me) is that they can't decide rather to step up and be a man or revert back to being a child. The fact that he chose to respond only to my comments on his grammar rather than on the sound advice that I gave him about his horsemanship tells us what his decision was this time. Hopefully next time he can make a better one.


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## Rebellion (May 20, 2009)

This honestly has gotten way out of hand. I came on here to give outside advice because I know both Michele and Chance and it has turned into a big fight.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Matt the times I didnt sell before... EGO.. I felt like I was being defeated and that I needed to prove something..

Matt you've been a huge help along with everyone on this forum.. the support ive gotten is amazing.


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## Rebellion (May 20, 2009)

In the end shes going to do what she wants to do with Chance and not one of us can change her mind.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> That was really interesting WS explained a lot of things thats going on.
> 
> I really do want to try the pasture board and see if things change. But Im really gonna try and let go of the ego, I know thats what has made me keep her this long... and maybe thats whats pushing me now....
> 
> ...


Definately try the pasture board. I have never had my horses stalled, so that is an issue I have never had to deal with.

The thing is - Whether the problem is you, or whether the problem is the horse, is irrelevant. The fact is, she has proven that she uses dangerous behaviour as a reaction to SOMETHNG - And she has had success with it. Which means that in her mind, by using the principles of pressure and release, that it is a viable way to avoid pressure, whether percieved or actually there.

That in itself is enough for me to stick with my opinion that you would be safer and better off with a horse you can enjoy, one who has never learnt that dengerous behaviour has a positive outcome.


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## Rebellion (May 20, 2009)

I should sell my horses and get something that suits me as I want to show upper level dressage but I can't. Ive had a rough child hood and my horses have always been their. They are my best friends and I'm so lucky to be granted with both of them. I can always turn to them when I need help. Ya, they cant speak but just the presence and way abouts makes me feel better. I think thats why you have such a battle about selling Chance because you feel very similar about her as I feel about my horses.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

WS I agree with what you said above 100% she knows that shes gotten mee in teh past... and still tries to push me to that limit again.. and I dont have the over confidence to push through that.

Either way if I can get a free lease till i sell chance..having her in the pasture would work better. So Ill see where we end up.. 

Ill keep you guys updated.

Matt that could be one of the reasons, Shes always been the one I turn to to get my mind off something and the one thats just stood there as long as I needed her. As WS said, safety does come first, I need to keep that on the top of my list.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

She can find that bond with a horse that doesn't try to kill her 90% of the time. Chance isn't the only horse she's ever going to own. And as far as I'm concerned, a horse that spends that much time trying to hurt you, obviously doesn't share whatever bond you may think you have together. I don't care how bad she "was" - she's STILL dangerous after 2 years and that's a lot of time to waste on an animal who isn't working with you.

My pony Ramar died when I was 7. It broke my little heart - I spent years grieveing over him. I never would have believe I could love a horse again. And then Playboy came along. I owned Playboy for 14 years, and he was my life and love. He got me through my depressed suicidal teenager phase, and he was always there for me. I never believed I would ever have a horse as good as him again, a horse that I could love as much as him ever again. And now I have Zierra. And again, she has topped the list in every expectation and love I could have for an animal, surpassed my love and bond with Ramar and Playboy combined and again, I feel no horse could ever top her. Maybe this time one won't. The bottom line is you will share a bond and love with many different horses throughout your lifetime, each and every one in a different and special way.

What are you missing by digging a perpetual grave for yourself and an animal that continues to frustrate you and hurt you? What horse is out there waiting for you to love it and bond with it, and appreciate that bond and work well with you? What joy are you missing by plugging countless years into an animal that has no apparant trust or faith in you?

We all want to save them. I had an abused mare that I brought around nicely, regardless of how many times she tried to kill us both. The point is, that mare was never going to "bond" with me. I taught her she could halfway trust humans, and that we could be good for something other then meaness, but at the end of the day, she'd still rather have her oats and grass then a human messing with her. I rehomed her after an injury, and felt good about what I'd accomplished, but would I have sold my beloved Playboy and precious Zierra to accommodate her? Nope, and that's why she went first.


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

i didn't read through all the posts here but wanted to reply to the OP.

few possible issues (and since i didn't read everything if i'm repeating what someone else said i apologize)

back/pain issues & saddle fit - though since it sounds like the horse is unpredictable, then that is likely not it 
assuming you ruled out other pain issues and soundness issues (like hock pain or bad stifle) just b/c i have seen an old OTTB be like this when his stifle would bother him from an old injury and it would seem without warning but once we figured it out we knew to check that stifle and sure enough he was tender on it every time...

and all that aside, i also work with an absolutely amazing animal communicator cindy smith. she's done wonders for our rescue horses here in helping them understand that they are safe and reassuring them that they will be fed, treated well, etc. which is a huge plus b/c we see some pretty bad cases. that said, it may help if you were interested since you HAVE put so much time into this horse to try to have a conversation with her. just a though.

and before anyone goes all postal on me - to each his own - not everyone believes in it, but i believe in the insight i have gotten from some of my sessions. and i am NOT saying to do this week over week over week....

OP do what you will with what i offered. if you are interested, her site is Cindy Smith, Animal Communicator and feel free to tell her CJ with the horse rescue in NJ sent you. she's amazing and i absolutely love her and all the work she does.

best of luck, and i'm happy to hear that you are open to selling her/rehoming her with someone who can work with her issues rather than hanging on to a horse in a bad situation (as in you're not successfully working together).


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## Rebellion (May 20, 2009)

90% of the time? Im not sure what shes been telling you but its deff not 90% of the time! They have been having a blast together if you read her previous posts! Just recently Chance has been building up to this!


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Horse phsycic!! That's a new one!


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## Rebellion (May 20, 2009)

Thats another thing I'm not sure if shes posted on here about her saddle fitting but shes hasnt been able to get it to fit correctly! She has a wintec and shes changed the gullet a million times! She just bought a crupper to try and keep the saddle from sliding forward.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Rebellion said:


> 90% of the time? Im not sure what shes been telling you but its deff not 90% of the time! They have been having a blast together if you read her previous posts! Just recently Chance has been building up to this!


I could care less what the actual percentage is. Or that they've been "having a blast". Michele is having a blast, Chance is not, or she would not be acting this way. Good behavior, bond and trust aren't "fleeting". They're there or they're not. So all her hard work has been in vain if after 2 years, the horse is still acting out so violently and disrespectfully to her. So it's up to her if she wants to waste another 2 years trying to find whatever holes this horse has and attempt to fix them, or get on with her life and find an animal she can enjoy all the time, not at times when Chance decides to behave.


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## Rebellion (May 20, 2009)

Tons of things come into play in this situation and with all respect you can not give "valid" input without knowing everything thats been going on. I think I should mention Chance is normal when Michele rides her bareback instead of a saddle. Michele has battled over the whole saddle fitting thing and that could be a huge huge huge part in this.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

If her saddle bothers her enough to blow like that, it wouldn't be random, it would be consistant. It's not rocket science.


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## Rebellion (May 20, 2009)

Thats the thing she rides bareback a ton!


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

That doesn't, in any size shape or form, deviate whatsoever from what I just said. By her own admission, Chance worked beautifully in the arena for quite some time under saddle before blowing her mind again over a particular jump. A horse with saddle pain is not going to perform nicely for X amount of time and then randomly blow. They're either bothered by an ill fitting saddle, or they're not.


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

"Life's too short to ride a horse that is totally wrong for you..."


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

I'm reading through some of the many threads that we've been through on this forum with you, HAF, and I have a question, that I have always been curious about:
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/chance-again-worst-then-ever-very-7629/page4/#post72563
I am not dredging up old threads, but something has not been right with me for a while - 


> and shes been used as beginer riding she needs to get back into the swing of things!


Also, while reading back on threads from way back when, almost 2 years ago I noticed a pattern... this has been going on for 2 years. There's a post about her going well, then a post about your worst ride ever, then a post about how she's fixed, then another post about how you can't deal with her anymore. Over and over and over again. 
Perhaps she once was a beginner safe horse - but maybe this is the reason she was sold in the first place. 

While reading these old threads (I do recall swearing I'd never reply again at one point lol) I came to a few different conclusions:

1) Green horses (or... beginner safe horses gone off their rocker?) take patience. Here's a quote from a reply I made to your thread titled "Chance AGAIN!! worst than ever!!!" :


> 5) With young horses you have to be patient, and always be ready - that means being viligant at every moment that you are on them. You can't think "ok well they're going well, I'll just relax" because they might spook at that next scary shadow (yea, the one they've walked by a million times, but THIS time it's scary!) and you might get dumped in the dirt if you're not anticipating it. The fact that Chance got the better of you the second time around was your fault - "fool me once" type thing. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but it's a reality in training young horses... and I will be the first to admit I've done this many times!!
> It sounds like you really need to consider whether or not you can be all of this to her, HAF. I'm not trying to sound mean, I'm being realistic. I know you like Chance, but can you handle her? Can you take her training back to where you consider her unbroke and build up a solid base? Can you react calmly with her? Can you know what to do when she rears or bucks or spooks? This means that you have to know how to stop her from rearing or bucking.
> Most of all, HAF, I think if you are going to continue onwards with Chance, you need to get a trainer. If you don't like the one you're with, then find another.


2 ) HAF, I think things have been like this for long enough. Since you bought Chance you have created thread after thread about how good she is, then how you've eaten dirt for the last time, then how good she is, then .... you get the picture.
I don't think this horse is the right match for you. As I have said from the beginning, I think she needs a person that knows how to react to her shenanigans instantly, and without hesitation or even having to think about what they're doing. 
3) My last point. She's an unpredictable horse. She is not solid, a solid horse will not just up and act out. In today's market... she's not worth that much. You may want to think differently, but in my honest-to-God opinion, $3000 for her is ludacrous. Sure, she's cute... but she's not solid. She is borderline dangerous - I agree with I think it was Kevin that suggested offering her to the first person that seems they can handle her - for little money. She's not going to be an easy seller unless you lie - and I hope to God you're going to be 110% honest with potential buyers.... a borderline dangerous horse (sorry, but look at your previous threads...) has to have everything disclosed on it. I really really hope you take this to heart. I am not trying to be mean at all, I am trying to be honest. 
Good luck.


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## AlmostThere (Oct 31, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> You also should look into the proper usage of thier, they're and there as well as threw and through. It might help you sound a little more intelligent.


Thank you Kevin.

I don't have the experience to comment about his riding skills, but Rebellion's misuse of _their_ and _there_ has been driving me nuts.

Rebellion, in case you care, _there_ is for sentences like "look over there." or "There is something strange going on with Chance." 

_Their_ denotes possession, like "They rode in their arena." 

_They're_ is the contraction of they and are. "They're going to ride over there in their arena."

[/grammar lesson mode :wink:]

HAF good luck with whatever you decide. Seeing as I'm closing in on forty and still don't even have my first horse, I can't imagine what it is like for you right now. I hope you stay safe.


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

I'm fully prepared to be attacked for this, but it is typed with good intentions in mind.

It seems to me you are setting your horse up for failure. The trail ride wasn't going well, so you took her into the arena. So far, so good. And she was doing great, which is even better. And then you took out jumps? Jumps are exciting for most horses, especially a youngster and a horse already prone to getting hot. You set her up to fail. When you should have been praising the living daylights out of her for the great flat work and putting her away and ending on a good note, you gave her an opportunity to act up. When your friend is trying to quit smoking, do you offer them a cigarette? You knew she was already "feeling her oats" that day, so what did you expect? A miraculous cure in 45 minutes? You need to set her up for success, giving her tasks she can accomplish, and stop giving her chances to fail. I'm not surprised in the least that you got dumped.


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## Rebellion (May 20, 2009)

riccil0ve said:


> I'm fully prepared to be attacked for this, but it is typed with good intentions in mind.
> 
> It seems to me you are setting your horse up for failure. The trail ride wasn't going well, so you took her into the arena. So far, so good. And she was doing great, which is even better. And then you took out jumps? Jumps are exciting for most horses, especially a youngster and a horse already prone to getting hot. You set her up to fail. When you should have been praising the living daylights out of her for the great flat work and putting her away and ending on a good note, you gave her an opportunity to act up. When your friend is trying to quit smoking, do you offer them a cigarette? You knew she was already "feeling her oats" that day, so what did you expect? A miraculous cure in 45 minutes? You need to set her up for success, giving her tasks she can accomplish, and stop giving her chances to fail. I'm not surprised in the least that you got dumped.



This is prob the best post on the whole topic.

And lay off I'm 16 years old sorry I dont give a hoot when I'm writing on a horse forum. I just type it quickly and dont re read it. If it makes you feel any better I just passed my English midterm with a 96 and that covered commonly confused words.


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

There are plenty of horses out there who can deal with less than perfect rides and riders without blowing up. I know some other people in this forum have criticized your riding and training, but no one on this forum started out as the perfect trainer. Everyone made mistakes and went through a learning process. Becoming a great trainer takes years. It takes wisdom and experience, which only come with time. If you are only 16 you have a long way to go in terms of knowledge and experience. I have ten years on you and I have a long way to go. But I know a hell of a lot more now than I did then. We're all pretty dumb when we're teenagers. Christ, I didn't have a clue at 16-17 (I thought I did, as you do) and if my horse (the same one I own now) had been super hot things would have gone pear shaped. The point is that there are thousands of horses out there who can deal with a rider who is still very much in the process of learning horsemanship skills, who will be inconsistent, who will make mistakes. These horses will alert you to your imperfections but not try to kill you by going completely mental. My mare has perfected the art of trundling along, ignoring me but in a completely calm and safe way, until I stop being a tool. There are lots of horses like her. While I actually have the skills now to deal with blow ups and hot horses, I don't find it to be much fun so I won't buy a horse who was prone to that sort of thing on a regular basis. I never will. At the same time there are plenty of riders out there who LOVE hot horses, who love a challenge, who would probably love your mare and appreciate her hotness and who would get bored on a mellow horse.

It sounds as if you would enjoy yourself more and be safer with a more level-headed horse and Chance would do better with a rider who was adept at handling hot horses. 

Wild Spot made a good point when she said it's a bit egotistic to think no one can love our horses as much as we do. That's totally erroneous. Someone not only can love that horse as much as you do, they can probably handle her meltdowns nae bother.


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

Quote from Kevin on the 3rd page:



kevinshorses said:


> I think she should sell her to the first person that thinks they can handle her.


Normally, I would have a problem with this. However, seeing the situation, I really do agree. If she is really trying to kill you or is as dangerous as you make her out to be, sell her to the first person who is capable of handling her.

A rescue I took in a couple of years ago was vicious. I don't know what went on his past that made him that way. That combined with the fact that the rescue was not honest about his condition, made it extremely difficult to sel him. We ended up giving him to a man (which was good, he needed a firm hand) who was very experienced in handling problem horses. He now works in... a feed lot! hah.

Anyway, I hope things get better, but it sounds like you guys have hit a wall that is very difficult to get around. When personalities clash, there is really no fixing it.


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## SavvyHearts (Sep 29, 2009)

Pasture board? Ok I think I remember a friend of ours that has suggested you get Chance on pasture board for well over a year now. Why now do it? Do you now see the harm it does mentally and emotionally to some horses?


Rebellion, I think you are being awful rude to Kevin. He is giving his opinion which the majority here on this thread agrees with. You are not acting like a 16 year old...you're acting like a kid whose not getting his way.

I agree with JustDressageIt...it does seem (went back in your posts) that it's gone on for a long time and wasn't Chance an abused horse that used to rear and buck when you got her? I don't see in any way that she would have been a beginner safe horse unless she was drugged.

I believe Chance will make someone a good horse...but she needs someone with time, patience, understanding and KNOWLEDGE! Which, no offense, I do not see that you have at all. Yes Chance might have a very confusing horsenality, but it is something that can be figured out and something someone can learn to work with.

I definitely agree that she should be sold for very little money to the first person that shows interest and thinks she can handle her. Even giving away for free. You aren't going to make enough money on her to buy a new horse (a horse farther along in training and one that has some jumping experience like you wanted).


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Rebellion said:


> If it makes you feel any better I just passed my English midterm with a 96 and that covered commonly confused words.


That blows the last thread of faith I had in the public school system out the window.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

^^HAHA. kevin, I don't care how many demerits you get, don't ever leave, okay? 

Rebellion, I really don't care how many horses you've ridden, unless you've ridden Chance on a bad day. Until then your opinion, however close, is still an outsiders opinion. You are an observer just as much as we are. Let your friend sell her horse, so she can be around to celebrate your 17th birthday. I personally find it ironic and a little sad that you are I think the only one telling her to "cowgirl up", and you've probably seen the damage that horse has caused her first hand.

And for the record, I ride Western. Since I bought my guy, I've had quite a few trips to the ER too....but its not because he decided it was time for me to get off, its because I expected too much of him too soon, and he blew up.


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## Snowkicker (Dec 23, 2009)

riccil0ve said:


> I'm fully prepared to be attacked for this, but it is typed with good intentions in mind.
> 
> It seems to me you are setting your horse up for failure. The trail ride wasn't going well, so you took her into the arena. So far, so good. And she was doing great, which is even better. And then you took out jumps? Jumps are exciting for most horses, especially a youngster and a horse already prone to getting hot. You set her up to fail. When you should have been praising the living daylights out of her for the great flat work and putting her away and ending on a good note, you gave her an opportunity to act up. When your friend is trying to quit smoking, do you offer them a cigarette? You knew she was already "feeling her oats" that day, so what did you expect? A miraculous cure in 45 minutes? You need to set her up for success, giving her tasks she can accomplish, and stop giving her chances to fail. I'm not surprised in the least that you got dumped.


This is what I've been thinking the whole thread. This and that a certain young man did not get enough spankings in his "hard" youth, and I don't mean you Kevin :wink:


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

She was never a beginner safe horse INTILL I worked with her, and there has been times I could put 2 beginners on her. When I got her she was broke to saddle, but but to ride. I was lied to horribly when I bought her, and never rode her myself because I saw her ridden and im guessing she was drugged because looking back she was WAY to layed back to be my horse. Rebellion knows the person I bought Chance from and knows chance wasnt even broke to ride when I got her. I shared with people on the forum what I was told by the seller. 

**** poor Kevin. I hope you know I have huge respect for you because you are very knowledgeable with horses. Im no where near are horse smart as half the people on here. I took Chance on cause I thought I was getting something else, then didnt want to sell her cause I felt like I needed to save her. Then the times I wanted to sell her in the past, I didnt cause I had way to big of an ego and felt like I needed to prove everyone wrong. People who see her today can see the amazing things i've done for Chance but I think I may have reached my limit. I can only do some much. and stay on so long. 

I never turned out out in pasture before because I couldnt. There wasn't space. I emailed my BO and haven't got anything back. Im going up there later anyways to work with Little and Chance on the ground. 

About the saddle. Even the good days I was riding in teh saddle. The saddle fits fairly well now, just slips forward if shes to much on the forehand, or if I keep the girth to loose. Im still working on getting the crupper on. But I wont be riding anytime soon.. my body REALLLLLY felt that fall. I actually stayed out of school because if I even attempted to put a back pack on my back and climb those stairs I think I would have died.

**** JustSamBam - I would LOVE to be around for my 17th birthday.

And savvy.... I've worked with this mare for 2 years... I thnk I have patients... I broke her to ride and train her myself.. I think I have knowledge. But I dont think were made to work together. JUST because I dont do Parelli doesnt mean im not knowledgable... i think im smart just for leaving it.  Anyways the 2 boarders at my barn that went on teh trail with me couldnt believe the patients I had for Chance. Because the s*** she was throwing was ridiculous and I just laughed it off and kept working on her and sat through her bucks and kept her moving forward. Even they were commenting on how they would be ramming her in the sides for pulling that... SOO dont comment on my paitents.. knowledge.. or whatever JUST because you have something against me... and not doing parelli....

Yes I may have had her set up for some failure, BUT I was gona judge it as we went along. After teh first jump she was fine nice and calm its when seh wanted to jump herself I think she got over excited. But I couldnt end it when she was throwing bucks or trying to run away with me. I wouldnt end like that. But when I came off the other boarder got on her and had her end on a okay note. But idk WHAT this woman did but she made poor chance sore on her right front. HOW do you do that?! She wasnt sore till the woman got on her.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

HorsesAreForever said:


> But when I came off the other boarder got on her and had her end on a okay note. But idk WHAT this woman did but she made poor chance sore on her right front. HOW do you do that?! She wasnt sore till the woman got on her.


She was probably just over-exerted....I would be too if I'd put on a show like that and then someone asked me to work some more.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

> The saddle fits fairly well now, just slips forward if shes to much on the forehand, or if I keep the girth to loose.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


A saddle pinching the withers can really hurt a horse. So... if it slips forwards when she's only on the forehand, a jump is going to SLAM that saddle forwards into her withers - ouch!! 
She gets on the forehand, or goes down a slight hill, or... anything really and the saddle starts to hurt... maybe that's your answer? 
If your saddle slips forwards, it it NOT fitting correctly - and it could be the source of many of your issues. Go back in your posts and read, try and find some correlation. During her "bad days" is there any way the saddle could have started hurting her? I'm going to say 100% yes, as nobody can even tack up the exact same way, put the saddle in the exact same place every day, so it is absolutely possible that the saddle started to hurt her, and she decided not to put up with the pain anymore.
I suggest getting a saddle that's fitted by a professional and see how she does after that. I would throw in some chiropractic work as well, as an ill-fitting saddle can really do some long-term damage. 

I am willing to bet dollars to donuts that the saddle is a BIG problem. She could be a very picky horse, and if the saddle (which doesn't fit her correctly anyways) slips a little out of position, it could begin to really hurt her. Some horses will not stand for that whatsoever - my friend's mare would pin her ears the second a bad saddle sat on her back, and if you dared ride her with it? She'd pile you so quick you wouldn't know what hit you. In a saddle that fit her she was an ANGEL.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

See even when it use to slip practically on her neck she wouldnt act out. Ive prevented it from slipping as much as it use to. If It slips to much I get off and re adjust. And its the best the saddles been in a while, ive gone by sweat marks and how the hair lays when I get off, and its not to bad. It also had good clearance for the withers. Ive tried almost all the gullets in the wintec gage system, even with different lifter pads. 

Ive tried to get a saddle fitter out but they are WAY to far up north that it would cost like $100 or more for travel on top of w.e it cost to get the saddle fitted. Its a work in progress. If anyone can find a saddle fitter close to Cape Elizabeth, Maine LET ME KNOW! lol


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Just think about it a moment: horses have feelings too. Not as much as a human, per se, but they certainly have "bad" days. 
So let's say that on a "good" day she puts up with this saddle that's hurting her. That's akin to us putting up with an ouchie shoe, but if we're in a good mood, we'll put up with it.
What about if you're in a bad mood? The last thing you want is to put on a shoe that hurts your foot, and you're much more likely to throw a fit and either throw the shoes in the garbage in a rage, or taking it out through another outlet, as in cursing someone out, or doing something else out of character. Horses don't have this cognitive power, they just act out. 

Another thing: the saddle could have caused injury, which flares up from time to time. For example, I have two loose ribs caused by injury. If I am diligent about my posture, and what I carry, I don't have many flare-ups. When I do get a flare-up, all I want to do is lie down with an ice pack and narcotics (prescribed! lol). Now if I dare upset my back with improper posture or a heavy load, or a bag that isn't balanced correctly? 4 times out of 5, it causes a HUGE flare-up, and I have been known to almost take someone's head off in response to the pain. HOWEVER 1 time out of 5 (let's say) I can get away with it, so it's very tricky. 

I would really be interested to see what she'd be like in a properly fitted saddle, one that does not require a crupper or a tight girth to keep it in place. I have a feeling this is leading to many of your problems.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Well Ill get some pictures of the saddle today girthed and un girthed and see what people day... if I need something smaller or larger. Cause I have no idea anymore. 

And I can see what you mean. I was talking to Chance's breeder. And she was suggesting lots of lungeing before riding in the winter... but I dont think that would help.. because on flat she was pretty calm even over a few jumps. Just something made her snap.. but I dont know should I try lungeing again?


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

HorsesAreForever said:


> Yes I may have had her set up for some failure, BUT I was gona judge it as we went along. After teh first jump she was fine nice and calm its when seh wanted to jump herself I think she got over excited. But I couldnt end it when she was throwing bucks or trying to run away with me. I wouldnt end like that. But when I came off the other boarder got on her and had her end on a okay note. But idk WHAT this woman did but she made poor chance sore on her right front. HOW do you do that?! She wasnt sore till the woman got on her.


Your judgment is flawed then. You have to stop before there's even a chance for a negative reaction. You can't just keep going until she acts up, because there is no release for that poor horse. She does good, and you ask for more. She does bad, and you ask for more. Why shouldn't she pitch a fit?

I agree with most everyone on here that you should rehome her. It's apparent that it's not working, and while you may love her to pieces, you are not benefiting each other. Your horse should bring you joy, challenging you without pushing you over the edge, EVERY DAY. She is too much horse for your current level. It's similar to putting a horse out if its misery. It's hard to let go, but it's unfair to everyone to hang out because you don't want to be part. Both you and Chance will be better off if you find her a new home.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

HaF, I actually thought that you DO Parelli. :wink: Although I may think about someone else. 

Anyway, here is my 2 cents. Frankly I'm not positive about "perfect match with the horse" and all that. I did ride VERY trained horses, and they just work for me perfectly without any bond, love, relationship, or "match". They didn't offer buck, rear or bolt. Because they are *trained *to work whether it's me on back or their owner (although I'm a little better than just sack of potato, may be otherwise they wouldn't be that patient :lol: ). Unless it's a health (including mental) or tack issue it's all about training. My own horses even though I think I have a bond with them they are nearly not as well trained and have their bad days and blow outs. 

Some horses are more laid back and easy to handle/train, but some are just full of problems (and it's just the mentality you can't really change). We all have limitations (I'm NOT talking about real trainer out there, but people like me or bunch of others on this forum, who start/train/deal with the (sometime problem) horses mostly ourself). If it's something you can't fix at all or (worse) getting worse and worse (like in this case), you just need to admit it and call the real professional who deals with the problem horses on daily basis. Sometime it can be just very easy fix you can do yourself after the trainer shows you how to do it. 

The broken bones just don't worse it. If you don't feel safe and you don't have money for professional just let it go (unless you want to keep the horse as pasture ornament). There is nothing wrong with it or anything funny about it. Some things in life just don't work out the way we want them to be.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

I wasnt looking for a reaction. She had lots of energy and was offering to jump so I was taking it cause seh was having fun. If she acted up at all during jumping even if its was a little bolt I would have stopped. But she was asking to jump and it was a good excuse to really tire her out which she needs lol 

She hasn't done it everyday. Idk where you got that. This is the worst shes been in the last year. But either way im trying out that mare, seeing if I liked her and possibly put her on a free lease till I sell Chance. But till then im gonna see if putting her out 24/7 and possibly lungeing will calm her down. Winter has always been a hard season for her. But Yesterday was over the line. But she acts out then shes fine.. acts out.. then shes fine. Which is why im confused.. I really think its a mentel thing... she was abused from the DAY she was born. I got her full story from her breeder... and idk how this mare trusts anyone honestly.


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## Kay (Dec 9, 2009)

Dear HorsesAreForever
Follow your instincts and please sell that mare. Your health is way more important than horse, And Please please get a gelding next time.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Kay said:


> Dear HorsesAreForever
> Follow your instincts and please sell that mare. Your health is way more important than horse, And Please please *get a gelding next time*.


That made me laugh actually. The _best _horses I rode were mares. :lol:


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

SavvyHearts said:


> Pasture board? Ok I think I remember a friend of ours that has suggested you get Chance on pasture board for well over a year now. Why now do it? Do you now see the harm it does mentally and emotionally to some horses?
> 
> 
> Rebellion, I think you are being awful rude to Kevin. He is giving his opinion which the majority here on this thread agrees with. You are not acting like a 16 year old...you're acting like a kid whose not getting his way.
> ...



Had been giving this a lot of thought since signing off yesterday and came in prepared to give a response, but I see that you, Saavy, have taken so many words right out of my mouth that I'll just quote you for posterity....and in the hopes that maybe in reading what you said again even one sliver of what you say might actually sink in for HAF her little sidekick.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

If she gets sold for very little money theres no garentee if where she will end up. I want her to go somewhere that she will be appricated and loved just as much as I do, but can handle her little tricks. I have a feeling I should have posted more of the postive stuff as well because it hasnt all just been bad. Theres been a lot of positive. I just usually come on to the forum and vent cause I cant anywhere else. I brag all day to people in my house about the good stuff. lol. 

Theres no way in HELL she would go for free. Shes has good confirmation, and does have a good amount of experience on her. Her personality is to die for. And has LOTS of talent. Like I said I really should have posted more positive things. I regret that now. 

Go to youtube and search lolwtfmichele 
I have a ton of videos on there.. and tell me that i should let that mare go for free...


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Michele, nobody is saying that she's worthless. Far from it, but right now all her value is in her potential, and people aren't paying a lot for potential. She DOES have problems. She is a lovely horse, but 'the proof is in the pudding.' The reality is that she's a borderline dangerous horse at the moment. 
In all honesty, you are not going to be able to sell her for much. People are paying a few hundred dollars for a well-broke, papered horse, so why would they pay more for a horse that has problems? 
You CAN give her away (if I got into a situation where I couldn't keep Denny, or needed to rehome him quick, I would give him away to someone I trusted) and be smart about it. You can have a bulletproof contract/sales agreement. You can inspect her new owner's barn. You can have an agreement that stipulates that you can go and visit her once a month, or something like that.
She's a nice horse, sure, but in today's market she isn't worth a whole lot, I'm sorry. She might be a million dollar horse to you, but the MARKET reality is that she isn't.
The reality is that she's an unpredictable unpapered (I'm pretty sure?) mare... and that alone drops her value...


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Depends where you live. We sold a problem mare that was a neurotic disaster on the trails - but a bombproof kid's horse in an arena. With that knowledge, we managed to sell her for $1000 to a family, where she's doing fantastic and has even started some light trail riding without Szerina freaking out.

Had she been a reliable trail horse, we could have gotten $2000 for her.

Chance is a sweet looking mare, but based on her conformation, movement and attitude problem from your videos and posts, I do not think you will ever see $3000. You would be hard pressed to see that price even in my area. But it depends on your area - unfortunately, regardless of where you live, she just doesn't have a huge market if she's not a showhorse, not a reliable trail horse, and prone to violent behavior that could hurt people. She's to nuts for a child, and she's to plain for a real cowboy to want to bother with.

You have to look at it realistically. Nobody wants to sell, but we all want to believe our horses are worth more then they are.


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

I do not agree with the whole "get a gelding" thing. It's not a mare thing, it's a green horse thing! I have 3 mares

<---- They're cute 

Anyway, about the "not going for free" thing... If she is dangerous, you will be lucky to get someone to just TAKE her. Like I said before, I have been in your shoes with a dangerous horse. Took me forever just to find him a suitable home without any kind of $$ factor. 

Best piece of advice I can give: forget about the $$, think about your safety and your horse's sanity.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Well as of right now im trying the pasture option. I am thinking of safety first, but ive worked to hard to get her trust to let her go to just anyone. Id be checking out where she would be etc.

Ive had people offer on her ads when I had her up for $2500 last year... but thats last year lol and she was greener then she is now. And the person who rode her siad she could easily go for that if I sell her right. OBVIOUSLY being honest.  I've been lied to so I wouldnt want to do it to anyone else.

She doesnt have amazing movements but once you get her going shes a nice looking mover.

Shes not really THAT dangerous.. i mean she has a bad streak I can admit that. She USE to be life threatening when I first got her. So to me shes not "dangerous" because ive worked with how she use to be.

JDI- I understand what your saying. If I could, i WOULD give her to someone I trusted and could handle her. Shes a lot of horse in a small package ive been told that by many.

.


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

It seems that my advice is being pretty much ignored, so I will quit trying. Do whatever you want with this horse. She may kill you in the process because you're pushing her too hard and asking for too much, but that's your issue. You will be hanging on to her forever if you think you can get 3k for her. I wouldn't spend money on that kind of issue that you know for a fact is one that continues to come back time and time again. Good luck, hopefully she doesn't put you in a coma next time.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

ughmmmmm. 

Thanks for the positive reply?


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## Rebellion (May 20, 2009)

Michele you are getting great input from everyone and everyone is offering different input. Now its up to you to do what you want. Do what feels right. Don't make a choice that you'll end up regretting.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Yes, and I appricate everyone who posted! 

Its deffiantely gave me something to think about. 
For now I know im gonna try that mare I liked, and gonna put chance on pasture board for now and see where I am then.


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## tealamutt (Aug 21, 2009)

ok HAF, I haven't given you advice on this yet, mostly because I know how long you have struggled with this decision and I thought I should really put some thought into what I would do in your shoes before spouting out advice. I would be so torn if Tanner did massive back sliding and became unpredictable as Chance is. But I made myself a promise when I got him that if he was too much for me, I would let him go.

Now, Chance is young and beautiful and yes, even with her inconsistancy I think you most certainly could find the right match for her, though it might take time. I know at least two gals who would love to take her on (but are in no position for more horses at this time) and I can say this with confidence because both girls love taking problem TBs and working with them. It is their favorite thing and they are incredibly strong riders and trainers, they just love a challenge. That being said, I have seen one of the girls struggle as you have with a particular TB gelding who she eventually gave up because he was simply nutso. She found someone who was happy to keep him as a pasture puff on 9 acres with a few other horses and it was a win win. She still thinks of him from time to time (this was 10 years ago) but in the end knows he was not meant to be a riding horse, just too screwed up.

Point being, I think you can find the right home for her- and I know it will never be easy for you to give her up, but honestly I think she is too much for you or maybe a bad match is a better way to put it. You're not less of a person, you're not giving up on her, you have given her everything you know how to give her and personally, IMHO I think it is time to give her a new life where she will be happier. You will always know in your heart you did all that you were capable of, and that is all you can ask of yourself. big hugs to you girl, you have been through the ringer and I hope I never have to make the choice that is now before you. You love Chance, you'll make the right decision for her. *HUGS*


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## Romantic Lyric (Dec 31, 2009)

What I hear is typical abused spouse talk. Right after the incident, they're upset that their spouse hit them, talk about leaving, about calling the police, about doing SOMETHING...

But then their spouse apologizes, they promise never to do it again, (in Chance's case, maybe she has a good spell for a couple of weeks) and the abused spouse gets less angry, remembers what a "good" relationship they have and forgets - at least until next time.

At the beginning of this post you said you were done, finished - as your friend Rebellion said that you've announced a million times before. But, whatdoyaknow that several pages later it's become "Oh, I'll give Chance one last chance." That one last chance may be one chance too many.

I'm done posting on your threads regarding Chance because, like other posters, I feel like my advice is falling on deaf ears and it's always the same story, over and over again.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

RomanticLyric said:


> What I hear is typical abused spouse talk. Right after the incident, they're upset that their spouse hit them, talk about leaving, about calling the police, about doing SOMETHING...
> 
> But then their spouse apologizes, they promise never to do it again, (in Chance's case, maybe she has a good spell for a couple of weeks) and the abused spouse gets less angry, remembers what a "good" relationship they have and forgets - at least until next time.
> 
> ...


Good post. I agree with the last paragraph; and it's been going on for 2 years.
Good luck with your decision, Michele... I think I'm done too. (Heck, I'm a prime example of the above apparently  )


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

I haven't read all 15 pages.....but how ya doin Michele? What have you decided to do for now?


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## thunderhooves (Aug 9, 2009)

HorsesAreForever said:


> Shes has good confirmation, and does have a good amount of experience on her. *Her personality is to die for*. And has LOTS of talent. Like I said I really should have posted more positive things. I regret that now.


And that's(bolded words) exactly what might happen to you if you don't take this seriously.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

As of right now Chance is on pasture board.

Im going to check out that mare then doing a possibly trial to see if I like her enough. 

ALL of your posts have been taken to heart and I've been thinking about it and still am. I REALLY appriciate all of the replies and support it ment a lot that all you guys came and tried to help make my choice even eaiser.


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## thunderhooves (Aug 9, 2009)

That's what we're here for  . Good Luck!


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## SeWHC (Jul 1, 2009)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> That doesn't, in any size shape or form, deviate whatsoever from what I just said. By her own admission, Chance worked beautifully in the arena for quite some time under saddle before blowing her mind again over a particular jump. A horse with saddle pain is not going to perform nicely for X amount of time and then randomly blow. They're either bothered by an ill fitting saddle, or they're not.


Untrue. 

Horses will work through LOTS of pain if they genuinely like working. Its when they get pushed past their pain threshold that they blow up. In this situation, the horse was trail ridden, worked in the arena on the flat just fine, and then was asked to start jumping, when I can only assume was to the point where the horse was tired. Combine that with back problems from a saddle that doesn't fit... you've got a ticking time bomb. 


This thread is very irritating to me. I've posted in HAF's threads many times, and every thread is the same... the horse blows up randomly and etc etc etc. It's the same story every time. I guarantee that horse is in pain. If you change the gullet "a million times" and keep riding with it differently, it'll alter the back, lock ribs, sit on the withers, etc etc etc etc etc etc. That is PAINFUL. Riding in a saddle that doesn't fit, likely with extra pads (which just pinches even more) with different gullets AND a crupper to hold it in place will ABSOLUTELY cause a horse to flip out, ESPECIALLY if you are jumping. In a previous thread, she said the horse has a hard time cantering, in another thread the horse hollows out.... flips out.... 

.... IT'S ALL PAIN RELATED. When a horse is out, it'll stay out until it is fixed. Even a properly fitting saddle on a horse that is out all over will still cause pain. 

I really hate to be rude, but how many different ways can things be said? 

I mean, I've given you advice on how to keep he focused, balanced, etc. Yet you're still cantering and still jumping the horse. Why would you jump a horse that you know can be unpredictable? Why wouldn't you stick to the basics until you can figure out the underlying problem?


I'd get a trainer, and a good one. Call the chiropractor, you'll be surprised. Stop jumping the horse. Find someone that can help you that knows what they are doing. 

Best of luck. I hope the horse doesn't flip over on you, it sucks. You've gotten some amazing advice in here.


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## rissaxbmth (Feb 2, 2010)

I hope my new mare isn't like this, shes never bucked but she does have in her mind she is her own boss.
You should probably sell her for something more calm. She probably needs to go to someone who is used to this behavior. 
You sound like an excellent rider for staying on and I give you major props for sticking with the horse and working with her


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Thanks. 

Ive learned to have a pretty good seat. 

Like I said the saddle is the best its been in a while. Try and find a good saddle fitter around Cape Elizabeth, Maine and ill DEFFINALY have them come out because Ive been fighting with teh saddle for a while. 

She wasn't tired she was full of energy... energizer bunny. It takes a good 2 hour ride to actually make her tired if thats what im going for. Even if its mostly trotting/cantering. She has so much energy its ridiculous but it works for me really.

When Chance is in pain she tells you, trust me lol Ive been down that road where the saddle was WAY to narrow, and the second my butt hit that seat she was bucking. She doesn't tolerate stuff like that. So for her to be fine for most of the ride and going over the jumps a few times I dont think it was the saddle. SURE it could have been some of the problem cause it did slide a bit.

This thread is going to far I think. I told you right now shes on pasture board and were gonna see if that changes her attitude towards things. I dont want to give up YET. Ive worked to hard to give up right now. I know its probably stupid of me but I started her and my goal is to finish her. But if nothing changes when shes on pasture or if its still getting worse like I said ill probably move on. Im waiting for a email back on the mare I liked.

Chance is gonna be given a few days off to adjust to teh new living conditions, then im gonna start on ground work then move up from there. Bringing her on that trail ride was stupid on my part because I KNOW that winter is a hard season for her and she always goes backwards in her training. So I set her up to fail as far as that goes.. the arena work that wasnt so excuseable.


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## Rebellion (May 20, 2009)




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## Rebellion (May 20, 2009)

they are so going to yell at you when they see you on Chance without a helmet and with just a rope halter on her.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

^ Then why post it? You want them to yell at your friend?


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## SeWHC (Jul 1, 2009)

HorsesAreForever said:


> Thanks.
> Like I said the saddle is the best its been in a while. Try and find a good saddle fitter around Cape Elizabeth, Maine and ill DEFFINALY have them come out because Ive been fighting with teh saddle for a while.
> 
> When Chance is in pain she tells you, trust me lol Ive been down that road where the saddle was WAY to narrow, and the second my butt hit that seat she was bucking. She doesn't tolerate stuff like that. So for her to be fine for most of the ride and going over the jumps a few times I dont think it was the saddle. SURE it could have been some of the problem cause it did slide a bit.


After she was in pain and telling you she was in pain, riding in a way tooo narrow saddle for however long you did-- did you get her back adjusted afterwards, or did you just assume it would fix itself? If you never had her back adjusted after knowing she was in pain, her back is still messed up. 

Yes it may be better, but movements such as jumping would be a great way to wrench her back enough that she'd buck. 

Animals are just like people... if you mess up your back and don't go to the chiro or a massage therapist, it will stay messed up and not get better, in fact it will probably get worse if you keep doing the same movements over and over. 



Also-- the adjustable gullet isn't an end-all for all horses everywhere. Just because the gullet changes doesn't mean the whole fit changes... there are many more pieces to a saddle than just the gullet for fit. If your saddle doesn't fit, your saddle doesn't fit. Perhaps its time to sell it and get a new one that fits.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Personally, I don't care HOW sore a horses back is, if they buck, they get shut down. My horse had chronic back issues from an ill-fitting saddle, and used to buck, but he soon learnt ways to let me know he was hurting without endagering either of us.


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## sandy2u1 (May 7, 2008)

In a way I can understand how you feel. My horse has never been as explosive as yours though. I do understand about wanting to exhaust all possibility's before calling it quits. At least that way if you do have to sell, at least you can know in your heart that you did everything you could. The first year I owned my horse I had nothing but problems. He was scared of everything and everybody. I had to have two people to hold him so that I could get on. I loved him with all my heart, but every time my butt hit the saddle he would bolt, even sometimes doing a little bucking...usually ending in me on the ground. I left the barn many days cursing and just as many crying. I ended up hiring a trainer willing to work with me and him together (our last hope). I only hired her for a month, but because she worked with us both, when the month was over I had all the tools I needed to fix the problem myself. Of course it took a lot more than a month to really get him straightened out, but my trainer gave me a really good start and some great insight. I think if there is any way possible you should hire a trainer for a month. Any decent trainer will look at the issues that other people have mentioned (saddle fit, pent up energy from being stalled) and work with you on the problem. If you can find a trainer that is willing to work with your horse and you, then I think you can finally make a decision on wether to keep or sell your horse and feel good about it. I know the guilt that you feel for even thinking of selling, but it sounds like you have really worked hard to correct this problem and if you decide to sell, you should do so realizing that. You can find her a good home. If you do decide to keep trying please don't ride without your helmet, don't ride alone and please please don't put beginners on her!


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## Rebellion (May 20, 2009)

If you actually watched it you would realize the movie is about the journey that Michele and Chance had.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Sandy2u1 - thats what I feel like I should do. Theres a few last options for us, so why quit before trying them. Just like the video Matt posted, ive been through worse and yes Its stupid on my part to keep trying but we've gotten TO far. I looked into trainers in teh past to come down. Im still looking into that option. But I know a few people who are willing to help me out. Cause I know im at the point where I cant do it alone anymore. I hate admitting that, but if im gonna go any further with her im gonna need SOME assistance. 

If you looked into any of my other posts I am planning on having a Chiropractor come out and look at her. But I really dont think shes in pain cause she wouldnt have her head to teh ground stretching, or willingly canter for me.. let alone OFFER to go over the jumps. At least 3 of those jumps I did NOT ask for she just decided they were close by and we should go over them and I took it. I know the adjustable gullet isnt the best for all horses, but right now theres nothing I can do because I dont have the money to get a new one, and ALL my barn uses is wintecs.... so im stuck as far as that goes. I KNOW the saddle fits fine on the shoulders because it had nice even sweat marks, but past the shoulders it was try. So im not sure what that means. It was the same with the medium gullet, and right now I have a medium wide. 

I didnt even get a chance to ride in the saddle that was 2 narrow. I took the gullet out right then. Im not stupid.. I tried the wintec gullet gage and shes right at medium and medium wide. So IDK! Im doing the best I can atm honestly. Ive tried lifters and im thinking about getting a half pad with fleece it might take some of the pressure off. 

Its hard to fit chance to a saddle because of her back shape. Shes short bodied and slightly roached backed. She has the same type of back her mother had.

I just emailed my BO about having the chiro come out.


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

If you are going to ride her then always wear a hard helmet and a body protector, what's the point in risking getting hurt? I once was on a jumping lesson and the horse was taking off, bucking and being hard work. I put my trust in my instructor who told me to keep him going and carried on until the horse took off again after a jump, I lost a stirrup and he went vertical with a buck. I somersaulted over his head and cracked my shoulder blade and tore all the muscles on that side of my shoulder. If I'd be sensible enough to wear my body protector that wouldn't have happened, I would have just been winded. As it was I was unable to ride or go into school for nearly two months then had to have physiotherapy for the mucsles. They're still stiff at times and get sore when it's cold and it's been two years. Protect yourself if you insist on riding her because if she's as unpredictable as you say then it's stupid not to.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Yikes! Lesson learned that hard way huh? 

I usually never get on her without a helmet unless if its only gonna be a minute or 2 like in the stall or lounging around on her. Even then if its in teh arena I usually have a helmet.


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

Yeah, I never ride without a helmet anyway but since then I rarely rode without my body protector because I'm scared of a similar injury and it helps keep my back straight which stops my shoulder from hurting. Seriously if she is unpredictable and can buck etc then get a body protector because it will cushion any falls. Another story: A few years before that happened I was riding a little Welshie who couldn't stand the fact that he had to wait while the two horses in front went for a canter around the arena. He managed to get the bit between his teeth and took off, I tried to stop him so he oblieged me by slamming on the brakes and shooting his head down so I came over the top. As he went past to carry on he cowkicked me very hard in the chest. I was wearing my body protector then and got away with a bruise instead of having my ribs smashed and possibly puncturing a lung. I never rode him without wearing my body protector because he was very unpredictable and would be fine one minute then a devil the next. They stopped using him in lessons and he was just being used on beginner hacks where all the ponies are led (don't know why they were using him in a riding school in the first, there was quite a few horses that I wouldn't put in a riding school there).


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## Curly_Horse_CMT (Jun 8, 2008)

I know what this feels like :-( I have never had a horse that I didnt get along with, but my sister has had really bad experiences with some horses. This includes my best mare, who used to be hers at one point! :shock: 

Some horses and people just dont mix...like oil and water. I bonded really well with Shaneequah and still do. She is MY horse. Its the same way with my fairly new Curly, Yodie. He is a great horse but he is the kinda horse that you have to stay ahead of all the time. Yeah, some days I dont feel like dealing with it, so he sits. Its not that I cant handle it, just that I dont feel like dealing with a "greenie" so I grab the "tried and true" old mare. 

Sounds like your mare just needs a change in routine. I know that Shaneequah was that way; once I got her on a regime of hard trail riding and working her brain, she turned into a different horse. Now, we can throw her on the trailer without riding her for a month and use her on equestrian team (we had to do that this fall when my sister's mare freaked out and had to be trailered home) Two years, honestly, is not that long. It has taken me five years to get Shaneequah to where I want her, and there is always room for improvement. My friend bought her Tennessee Walking Horse gelding six or seven years ago and that horse and her get along great but he still has spaz attacks, no matter what. Sometimes its just in the horses genes. 

But, long story short, I feel for you  Good luck on your decison!


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

wild_spot said:


> ^ Then why post it? You want them to yell at your friend?


The more I read the more I think it's a troll actually!  At least he has typical "troll" behavior".


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## Gidget (Jan 19, 2010)

I am new to owning horses.
I read some of your thread and it's heartbreaking.
I haven't had a horse like that...


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## Gidget (Jan 19, 2010)

oops....sent the message before I was done!

anyways I never had a horse like that..stubborn,yes.
I would suggest you sell her to someone that is really experienced and see if she improves but I don't think it's safe for you to be riding her. You could get killed and that's a scary thought. 
People on here have gave you their opinions and it's time for you to do what you personally think is best for you and Chance. I would look into that mare if I were you. She could be a dream for you. You never know 

Best of luck and stay safe!!!!!!


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## Rebellion (May 20, 2009)

Actually I posted it so you could see what they have been threw! Shes got many more videos you can look at that show the good side of Chance.


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

wow this thread is a total sh**show....i quit.
have fun!


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

I mentioned that this thread as gone to far. I appricate all the replies and support and ive taken it all into thought and will look back on this thread when I run out of options its extremely helpful. Lis you deffinately had it rough lol Im glad you have that body protecter sounds like you need it jeeze haha

for the 5th? time 
Pasture board.... ground work..
gonna check out the mare... 
Make a final choice after I run out of options.


Can I ask why people are getting all ****y on me because I want to try one more thing with my mare before giving up????? I understand that I could and may get even more hurt but thats my choice to make. She use to be 1000x worse when I got her.. and i lived this long.


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

It's one of the reasons I advocate body protectors, you really know how useful they are after they've protected you once. Definitely get one while you're working on her. Better safe than sorry.


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## Rebellion (May 20, 2009)

I'm proud of you Michele! Your not one to give up! Shes a good girl you'll have it down pact soon. Remember how good she has been being before this? Goodluck! Ill always be here for you to vent to!


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## lacyloo (Jul 1, 2008)

Maybe she just doesn't like English ? 
Try western? Wouldn't hurt to give it a try.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> I'm proud of you Michele! Your not one to give up! Shes a good girl you'll have it down pact soon. Remember how good she has been being before this? Goodluck! Ill always be here for you to vent to!


You are driving me beresque! She would not be 'giving up'!!! She would be looking out for her own SAFETY. I really hope it doesn't happen, but if she ends up really hurt, you are going to feel really, really guilty.

I can't in good conciensce advise ANYONE to keep a horse that is dangerous for them.

Encouraging the frame of mind that getting a more suitable and SAFE horse is giving up is how so many people get badly, badly injured - Again, pride comes before a fall.

HAF - I can definately understand your desire to try every avenure before deciding to move on. But as above - I really hope you don't get hurt. The thing is, you have already said that she is good for a long while, and then snaps. What if you think she is going well due to being on pasture board - And then she snaps one time too many?

I'm a firm believer that no matter what in the horses situation is making them cranky, it is NEVER an excuse for dangerous behaviour. there are many other ways for a horse to communication discomfort, etc. without putting both of you in danger. If a horse continually uses dangerous behaviour as a method of communication, wether it be the saddle, being stalled, anything - That is a dangerous horse.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

wild_spot, you should be ashamed of yourself. How can you be so blind and ignorant as to not be aware that just by loving a horse, she will come around and be a good girl? She would never kill her owner, she's just having fun and you should never discipline a horse for having fun! Selling her is mean, what if she bites the new owner and ends up in a dog food can? I'm sure the OP will be much happier when she's in traction knowing that her beloved good girl was just trying to save them from that vicious rock when she threw her into the side of the barn and at least she's safe from anyone mean and bad! 

Shame on you. Maybe if you just loved YOUR horse more wild_spot, you wouldn't have so many problems with him! Er...wait...nevermind. :lol:


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

^ Lol, my mean, gnashing, out-of-control beastie :]


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## Rebellion (May 20, 2009)

Shes not giving up but yet the title to this post is "I've Given Up.." ? Ok you are driving me up the wall because you are totally clueless to the whole situation! Chance is not going to kill her! I cant stress enough that shes a hot horse shes as "dangerous" as everyone is claiming her to be. I rode with Michele almost everyday for a whole summer. Chance IS NOT GOING TO KILL HER.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

^ Out of the hundred + horses I have ridden I have NEVER thrown my leg over a horse that 'snaps'. I believe what the OWNER of the horse is saying, and has been saying for about 2 years - this horse, for whatever reason, be it pain, boredom, rider, etc. acts out randomly. It has also learnt that its dangerous behaviour results in a release of pressure (rider coming off). Hence, this horse has learnt that dangerous behaviour is profitable. How can you say that isn't dangerous? 

HAF has said that when Chance snaps, she is worried for her safety. How is that not dangerous?

I have no doubt that there is a rider out there who would be able to deal with these 'episodes' effectively. I don't think that rider is HAF - And absolutely no offense is meant by that. The riders who deal with these sort of horses tend to be those with a very low sense of self-preservation and a lot of determination, and they tend to get hurt a lot in the process. Even the BNT will put young apprentices up on colts for the first time - They have more pride and less common sense than the older, wiser trainers who don't want to risk their skin!

If HAF had of landed a bit wrong in her last fall - She could be seriously injured right now. Imagine if she hit the wall with her neck bent wrong? Or with her back twisted? Every time you come off a horse and walk away - You are lucky. A girl I knew - An eventer - Was training at home one day and came off. Nothing spectacular. She landed wrong - She received serious brain damage. She was restricted to a wheelcahr, and had to re-learn how to talk. She never rode again. She died about 2 years after the fall due to complications resulting from it. She was given an honour guard at her funeral of riders in their PC uniforms. It was a heartbreaking funeral.

This happened off her calm, sane, even-tempered horse. Why would you advise anyone - let alone a friend - To increase their risk of a life threatening injury by persisting with a horse who snaps randomly, and who frightens her when she does?

Horse riding is a very, very dangerous activity. There is no good reason to increase those odds.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> Shes not giving up but yet the title to this post is "I've Given Up.." ?


Those were her words. Myself and others have spent time trying to show her that it is not giving up, and there is no shame in wanting a more suitable, safe horse, both via this thread and via PM's. The mentality of some riders (you) who view this as 'giving up' is foolish.

If it's giving up, then I would rather everybody give up than end up hurt.


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## vivache (Jun 14, 2009)

Rebellion said:


> Shes not giving up but yet the title to this post is "I've Given Up.." ? Ok you are driving me up the wall because you are totally clueless to the whole situation! Chance is not going to kill her! I cant stress enough that shes a hot horse shes as "dangerous" as everyone is claiming her to be. I rode with Michele almost everyday for a whole summer. Chance IS NOT GOING TO KILL HER.


Bucking is a darn good way to kill someone. 

No matter how much I LOOOVE Razz, or even Thunder(a 13.2hh welsh pony), and they LOOOOOOVE me, I'd not ride either of them if they were unstable as Chance. YES, a horse that is fine one day and is on a quest to throw someone the next IS unstable. If even Thunder, who is NOT an impressively sized horse, bucked me off and accidentally stepped on my chest, would I be alive? Probably not. But is that MEANING to kill me? Of course not. He'd be trying to escape whatever was hurting him.

While pasture board may help a little, I have serious doubts as to if this will solve the problem.

We had a horse who would 'snap.' He reared up and flipped over on my instructor. He snapped on a boarder and kicked her in the face, after she'd been working with him with NO problem one day. He was put down 3 days later. 

If Chance kills you, she could very well end up like Stormy. Think of HER safety, as well as your own.


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## reining girl (Jan 30, 2009)

The horse just randomly explodes and throws her into a wall and other things, but nope thats not trying to kill her, safest horse i have ever heard of.


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## Rebellion (May 20, 2009)

You guys listen slllloooooowlllly you guys are making chance out to be a killer horse when shes not. Shes fine. I'd ride her shes not that bad.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

No, you listen slowly. (How do you listen slowly? Or fast, for that matter?)

We have *never* said she is a killer horse. It's a rare horse who intentionally sets out to hurt someone. What we are saying is that she is *dangerous*. HAF herself has said so and she owns the mare. She frightens her and has injured her. Why can't you see that that is dangerous? Any horse who has learnt that positive things come from dangerous behaviour is dangerous - Do you dispute that?

Do you actually believe a horse who 'snaps' - However rarely - Is safe? Would you put a little kid on her?

(And if you say yes then god help you) 

How about, instead of swearing black and blue that she is a safe horse who wouldn't hurt a fly, you actually give us the inside knowledge you are holding out on us that shows that really, HAF is over-exaggerating, has never actually been injured by this horse, and that she is as innocent as a lamb?


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Listen young grasshopper, my docile, trusting and absolutely never misbehaving Arab mare has the capacity and the ability to kill me if she wants. People are maimed or killed every single day by horses a lot better behaved then Chance is. So don't give me this soothsayer garbage about being able to see into the future, because unless you can, making a statement such as "She will not kill her" is the most ignorant and asinine thing you can assume. A horse has the ability to kill us just TRIPPING, much less making a delibrate and violent attempt to dislodge us from their backs.

I sincerely hope, in the duration of my entire life, I never get the chance to call someone as ignorant, blind, egotistical and stupid as you my "friend". The complete lack of regard you have for Michele's safety disgusts me in a manner I didn't even know one could be disgusted. The fact that you are a 16 year old punk who doesn't even KNOW the true meaning of pain when it comes to horses speaks volumes as to why you think this horse is so good. Put the juvenile, immature, wannabe cowboy pride away and stop thinking with the pair between your legs. This is far beyond pride, and unless you have some magical kiddo cowboy way to make this horse behave, I suggest you keep your pointless opinions to yourself if the best you have to say is "JUST KEEP TRYING LULZLULZLULZ".

I don't know how you can even call yourself a friend when you think a young woman with a promising future should risk her life for an ANIMAL. I don't care if she didn't break a pelvis in that fall, the point is, she FELL OFF HER HORSE when her horse acted in a completely INAPPROPRIATE manner. This horse reacted violently and swiftly enough to make this young rider FLY from her back, and I don't know what form of reality you live in, but that is DANGEROUS. It's bad enough when we fall by our own devices, it's 10X worse when you are being thrown by an animal who is putting every ounce of it's 1200lb frame into getting rid of you.

I think I need to stop replying on this topic, because you, my know-it-all little friend, are EXACTLY what is wrong with youth equestrians in this day and age. It's wannabe's like you who get yourself and others killed because you think you know it all and nothing can touch you. It's a long way to fall my friend, and I just hope the day that re-adjusts your attitude isn't the one that ends your life.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

^ Agree x1000.


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## reining girl (Jan 30, 2009)

wooo!!!!!!! go Miko


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## vivache (Jun 14, 2009)

Look at Jessica Forsyth. Amazing rider, amazing bond with the horse. He jumped a fence, landed on her, and her skull and neck got snapped.

That's a 800-1500lbs animal. Their HEAD ALONE is roughly 100lbs. A mere step on the big toe is enough to break it!

EVERY horse is dangerous. EVERY horse has the CAPACITY to kill someone, by sheer size alone.


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## thunderhooves (Aug 9, 2009)

wow Miko. thats deep, and I agree. also, to the post aqbove me..... teehee...not shetland ponies when your 5'4 and theyre only 2-3 feet.


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## Rebellion (May 20, 2009)

Has anyone ever thought that its HAF that just cant ride her?


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> Has anyone ever thought that its HAF that just cant ride her?


Uh, just about everyone here? Hence we are advising she sell?

So what - You are advising her to keep a horse you think she can't ride and is known to be dangerous? It just gets better.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Rebellion said:


> Has anyone ever thought that its HAF that just cant ride her?


Good grief. That's EXACTLY what we're all saying. Nobody is calling Chance a man-killing monster. We are saying that for whatever reason, Chance is dangerous TO Michele. Maybe Michele cannot handle her the way she needs to be, maybe Chance has beef with Michele's techniques but it all boils down to two YEARS being passed by with no real progress to speak of. I don't care WHAT the reason is, this horse is dangerous TO Michele, hence why she should examine finding a horse to better compliment her.

Does anyone feel like we've just wasted 20 pages of our life on this for him to FINALLY understand what we all meant in the first place? :lol:


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## reining girl (Jan 30, 2009)

o my


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## Rebellion (May 20, 2009)

Because I dont find Chance dangerous shes a hot horse. I think she knows she can take advantage of Michele. BUT, Michele doesn't want a firm rider to ride Chance and teach her a lesson. Chance knows she can take advantage of Michele.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

*beats head on desk*

I figure doing this can't make me lose any more brain cells then talking to Boy Wonder over here. My brain actually hurts.


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## Rebellion (May 20, 2009)

FINALLY WE HAVE COME TO AN UNDERSTANDING! I'm saying for Michele to not sell her because she can't. I know her way to well. She just cant sell her.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> Because I dont find Chance dangerous shes a hot horse.


A hot horse likes to go. They DON'T like to throw their riders. I have ridden 50+ mounted games horses and they are about the hottest horses you will find. not one bucked or 'snapped'. So that argument is officially invalid.



> Chance knows she can take advantage of Michele.


So now you want your friend to keep riding a dangerous horse who knows it can take advantage of her?

Please, for about the sixth time - What is it that makes you think that randomly snapping and throwing a rider for whatever reason is NOT dangerous. You have yet to answer.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> I figure doing this can't make me lose any more brain cells then talking to Boy Wonder over here. My brain actually hurts.


*Joins Miko in head banging*


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## reining girl (Jan 30, 2009)

o my dear god!


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## Rebellion (May 20, 2009)

I hope I make you bang your head so much you crack it. JERKS. What I'm saying is CHANCE IS A HOT HORSE. I've done game shows and won tons of money. The horse I rode was very hot and would stand and rear over and over and over again while waiting at the gate to gallop in.


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## vivache (Jun 14, 2009)

thunderhooves said:


> wow Miko. thats deep, and I agree. also, to the post aqbove me..... teehee...not shetland ponies when your 5'4 and theyre only 2-3 feet.


I dunno.. I know some FAT shetland ponies! 






Do you want to make one of these for your friend, because her 'CUTE PONIE WHO JUST WANTED TO GET HER OFF SO SHE COULD HUUUUG HER!!!' bucked her off and trampled her?


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## vivache (Jun 14, 2009)

Rebellion said:


> I hope I make you bang your head so much you crack it. JERKS. What I'm saying is CHANCE IS A HOT HORSE. I've done game shows and won tons of money. The horse I rode was very hot and would stand and rear over and over and over again while waiting at the gate to gallop in.


Aw, he wanted to snuggle.


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## Rebellion (May 20, 2009)

This needs to end shes going to do what she wants when she wants. Shes not going to sell Chance right now so say what you want. Keep saying things waste your time. I dont give a hoot anymore


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Rebellion said:


> I hope I make you bang your head so much you crack it. JERKS. What I'm saying is CHANCE IS A HOT HORSE. I've done game shows and won tons of money. The horse I rode was very hot and would stand and rear over and over and over again while waiting at the gate to gallop in.


FANTASTIC! It makes me feel so good that the one giving advice is also the one who's such a top notch trainer he can make a barrel racer neurotic. :roll:

That is not being HOT, that is being an utterly incompetent trainer who's reduced your horse to a neurotic mess from not having a single clue how to ACTUALLY train an animal. You can make the laziest animal neurotic if you don't know what the hell you're doing.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

everyone else whos ridden chance get close to thrown because if they think they can just get on and go.. she turns into a bucking brunc....But with me I can just get on and as for a canter right off. But the woman who rode her and gave her the "try it" attitude and suprisingly chance didnt. But Matt you havent seen me ride her.... Im not as laid back as I use to be. But im also not a bully to her. 

Chance is a hot breed.. not really a hot horse. Shes quite lazy LOL!

Considering I broke her and can actually ride her this winter unlike last theres HUGE progress... That summer I could ride her up till winter then she fell back into the spazz horse. Then once it started to warm up she went right back to where we left off... 

THe boarder at my barn thinks that she has a magnesium deficancy??? Does anyone have experience with that?


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## vivache (Jun 14, 2009)

Miko-
You didn't know? That's the sign of a FANTASTIC trainer!1!

I could only wish my horses were that well trained and safe!
(Sorry, I'll stop. X: )


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

everyone else whos ridden chance get close to thrown because if they think they can just get on and go.. she turns into a bucking brunc....But with me I can just get on and as for a canter right off. But the woman who rode her and gave her the "try it" attitude and suprisingly chance didnt. But Matt you havent seen me ride her.... Im not as laid back as I use to be. But im also not a bully to her. 

Chance is a hot breed.. not really a hot horse. Shes quite lazy LOL!

Considering I broke her and can actually ride her this winter unlike last theres HUGE progress... That summer I could ride her up till winter then she fell back into the spazz horse. Then once it started to warm up she went right back to where we left off... Chance has some issues in teh winter. IDK WHY and I wish I could figure it out. Because if that would just go away id have a good horse on my hands. When she does snap yeah its scary, and frusterateing..

THe boarder at my barn thinks that she has a magnesium deficancy??? Does anyone have experience with that? 

.... mat when in teh world did you do ANY of that stuff......


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I don't know anything about a magnesium deficiency, but it is unusual that she keeps slipping into phases. I agree with you, from your videos, Chance is blatantly not a "hot" horse whatsoever. My Arabian mare is hot - she's energetic and go-go-go but not dangerous. Hot does not equal problematic unless an individual doesn't know how to channel the hot energy. However, the fact that Chance DOESN'T appear to be a hot horse concerns me even more with her behavior.

Regardless of how this plays out, please HAF, get some better friends. When you're attempting to make a difficult decision based on health and safety, having someone hovering over your shoulder and tugging on your heart strings is not helpful whatsoever. Keep Chance because you honestly believe you can work through her issues, not because you love her.


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## Rebellion (May 20, 2009)

When did I game? At the Oxford Fair I took home 200 bucks  That was a fun time!


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

ty MM 

Thats why im so confused. Shes SO laid back and great.. but when she DOES freak out im just NOT ready for it. Usually I can stay seated well but not when u get whiplashed like 3-4 times [compared to BO] then slams on teh breaks.. and its weird because she goes right back to being fine.....liek it never happpened..so its hard to do any punishing..


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## Walkamile (Dec 29, 2008)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> I don't know anything about a magnesium deficiency, but it is unusual that she keeps slipping into phases*. I agree with you, from your videos, Chance is blatantly not a "hot" horse whatsoever. My Arabian mare is hot - she's energetic and go-go-go but not dangerous. Hot does not equal problematic unless an individual doesn't know how to channel the hot energy. However, the fact that Chance DOESN'T appear to be a hot horse concerns me even more with her behavior.*
> 
> Regardless of how this plays out, please HAF, get some better friends. When you're attempting to make a difficult decision based on health and safety, having someone hovering over your shoulder and tugging on your heart strings is not helpful whatsoever. Keep Chance because you honestly believe you can work through her issues, not because you love her.


I agree completely. And yes, this decission needs to be made with your head and not heart.


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## Rebellion (May 20, 2009)

O you have not seen Chance open up and be "hot" shes so much more sutttle now but before. She had endless energy


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Rebellion said:


> O you have not seen Chance open up and be "hot" shes so much more sutttle now but before. She had endless energy


It's adorable how you seem to think you know someones horse better then they do. Maybe if you spent a little less time assuming you know everything about others and a liiiiiittle bit more time concentrating on your OWN riding and animals, you wouldn't have an animal that rears at competitions. :wink:


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

I have chances energy harnessed now matt. I can bring it up and down as I wish. I've galloped her down 1/2 mile stretch and brought her right back down and walked around then walked home. But that day she wasn't "hot" she just had lots of energy that wasn't going away so I was having fun riding it out of it... and I guess something rubbed her the wrong way.


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## Rebellion (May 20, 2009)

It wasnt my animal! It was a friends! She did it to every other rider that got on her! She would also start piaffing. She just got excited. And Actually Ive seen Chance be very hot. As stated shes so much more calm now


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## vivache (Jun 14, 2009)

If there are NO warning signs right before a blow-up, not much will help that horse, as it's hard to find the root of a problem if there are no warning signs. 

Just like Stormy. His grave was dug the day I was holding him.. a boarder approached his shoulder, and without wide eyes or pinned ears-- no signs-- he wheeled around and kicked her in the cheekbone(she's fine!). When he reared up on my instructor, he just.. stopped and did it(also fine). 

99% of the time, that horse was calm, quiet, respectful.. it was just that 1%. It'd been thought that he'd make a good trail horse now, since the barn I ride at offers trail rides. As an advanced beginner, they thought I'd be a good test. When he hurt the boarder, I had my helmet on and reins in hand. We're VERY glad I didn't get on that horse.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Theres never been any real warning signs. Im sure if I was sitting there watching her every muscle movement or eye twitch I could see something.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Once again - I have ridden 50+ maounted games ponies through 4 years in the NSW State Mounted Games Training Squad. I have lent my games pony to the Danish team for the world championships. 

They all get excited. Only one reared and only when the rider hung on to it's mouth. I have no doubt that with the wrong rider, they would ALL rear.

If you can ride with any sort of feel, you can prevent rearing quite easily, especially rearing from excitement/energy.

***

HAF - I agree that you have made great progress with Chance. However, from the information I have at hand, I don't think it is enough progress to warrant keeping at it. I can understand new owner hi-jinks. I can understand violent spooking. I can understand trust issues due to abuse. But a horse that has a safe home, the same rider for two years, and being ridden in familiar environments - And is still being unpredictable and dangerous - That is what makes me say no.

Deficiencies, stall board, sore back, excess energy - I really don't care. NOTHING is an excuse for blatantly dangerous behaviour such as what Chance has shown. There are ALWAYS other ways of communication. The fact that she chooses this course of action and has profited from it is all the information I need.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Not making excuses here but all her before I got her was fight. And I dont blame her really to think shes still has to resort to that. She was abused from the DAY she was born till she was 31/2-4 when I got her. And even when seh was a baby she would fight her hardest trying to stay alive, because she lost her moms protection. So I dont think shes ever been normal lol

I already know that shes never gonna be completely stable or solid I accepted that a long time ago.


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## Rebellion (May 20, 2009)

Wow thats really cool that you game big time! I only did it at the Oxford Fair here in Maine to win some money! Not to steal the purpose of this thread but do you have footage of you doing any speed events? I love watching those on youtube.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

matt make a new post lol


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## Rebellion (May 20, 2009)

No need just a little side question! I think everyone has said what they need to say on this anyways!


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

all the more reason to make a new post.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

i ahve been watching this thread for a while and just want to say: i am wishing you and chance the best of luck, whichever way this turns out. and use your heart AND head for any desicion, because if you cant bear to do something that you need to, there is usually a compromise  good luck


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

No, actually, we've spent the majority of 20 pages battling with YOUR narrow minded and assumptive opinion on how Michele should handle this. How about we STOP paying attention to you and get back to the real purpose of this thread?

How are you feeling now Michele? A lot has been discussed now and I don't think we've touched based with you on your sentiments. Are you willing to give this a go or do you think the time has come to sell?


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> Wow thats really cool that you game big time! I only did it at the Oxford Fair here in Maine to win some money! Not to steal the purpose of this thread but do you have footage of you doing any speed events? I love watching those on youtube.


My whole family is video incompetent so no. if you search world mounted games 2008 on youtube I think there are some clips - That's the comp I lent my pony to. If you search mounted games on this forum I probably have some threads with pictures up.


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## thunderhooves (Aug 9, 2009)

the time has come to sell your horse when you sya you have had enough, then change your mind more than 8 times, as you have. You started saying you were done, and ended saying you wernet. simple as that. and btw slap you friend there for me, hes givin me bad vibes. good luck!


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Honestly I feel like I want to give this a shot. Im going from the ground up again. But I am gonna think before I do ANYTHING with her because I cant/ dont want to take another throw like that. See how bad that could have been is slightly scary and my Bo said I got whiplashed like 3-4 times and flew off.. yeah thats scary.. this is the 2nd close call Ive had with her.. the first time I DID land on my neck. Im hoping to avoid a 3rd. But even my BO thinks im doing a great job with her and thinks we can make it. But she also admited that this time was BAD. So that makes me think. Yes I know that ive gone back and forth... and I was thinking about that and maybe because I KEEP doing this.. its probably time. But.. well see. Maybe im thinking to much with my heart. 

Call me stupid but I just want to give this LAST option i try. Im gonna talk to the person about the magnesium thing she was talking about. 

I said it before but maybe it wasnt read I REALLY do appricate ALL of the replies its made me think a lot about what I want. I probably wouldn't have made a lot of connections to things that were put out there. I hope people dont think I just ignored your posts because I DIDNT. I just cant reply to every single one when theres 5-6 new posts going at once.

Also thanks to those to sent some encouraging PMs  Ment a lot.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

ya, its goodd your willing to give it a go! good luck and i soooo want to hear how it turns out...ive never heard of the magnesium thing i hope all goes well


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Thanks  

Ill keep posting about chance here and there, ill try and make sure I put more of the postitives.  

I might make a post on the magnesium things cause I am curious.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Oh my.....ok, I'll just throw my 2 cents in here, for what it's worth.

ANY horse has the potential to hurt/kill us. They are a prey animal, first and foremost, whos first instinct is to fly from fear/things they think are dangerous. We still ride them. Sure, some horse's flight instincts are closer to the surface than others, but even the most docile, broke horse has the tendency to hurt us. _The way_ we work with the horse and help build his confidence will make those chances more slim....it won't eliminate those chances, but it will decrease them.

Second, I do believe the saddle is still an issue for Chance. She is a very sensitive mare who is opinionated (I think of this as a good thing). I don't think that horses should ever be punished for expressing their opinion, espeically pain. It's not their fault and it's up to US to fix it.

Me personally, I went out of my way to find a horse who was very challenging (and who ended up being dangerous to a degree) because I wanted to test my knowledge and horsemanship skills. It's working out for me....and my horse....beautifully. There is no doubt that Chance is challening, in her own way, however I wouldn't label her a 'dangerous' horse. I have talked to Michele in depth about certain aspects of Chance's behavior patterns and I feel we've discovered some new insights that will greatly help her find success with Chance. The fact that she "suddenly explodes" is an interesting behavior, something I have certainly talked to her about.

I do not think Michele should get rid of Chance. I feel Michele has had a lot of mental and emotional challenges recently, and I think she's had to do a lot of self-analysis. I really do think, if she commits and dedicates herself to Chance and to learning, she will come out successful with her. I do feel that in some circumstances horse and human are not well matched, however I think Michele can make this work with Chance, she just has to up her game and become who Chance needs her to be....that's part of being a horseman.....becoming who that particular horse needs you to be, in that moment. Is this an easy task? Not at all. That's just the truth. 

I was going to say more, but I'm too tired to remember right now lol! So that's all for now.


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## SeWHC (Jul 1, 2009)

Rebellion said:


> Shes not giving up but yet the title to this post is "I've Given Up.." ? Ok you are driving me up the wall because you are totally clueless to the whole situation! Chance is not going to kill her! I cant stress enough that shes a hot horse shes as "dangerous" as everyone is claiming her to be. I rode with Michele almost everyday for a whole summer. Chance IS NOT GOING TO KILL HER.



Then Michelle is quite the drama queen, because she makes the horse sound like a terror.


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## SeWHC (Jul 1, 2009)

Rebellion said:


> I hope I make you bang your head so much you crack it. JERKS. What I'm saying is CHANCE IS A HOT HORSE. I've done game shows and won tons of money. The horse I rode was very hot and would stand and rear over and over and over again while waiting at the gate to gallop in.


This thread is a joke. You won game shows? Like... the Price is Right? 

If you mean gaming, how did you stay on with EQ like you posted in the pictures earlier? You don't have to get in a ****ing match with everyone trying to prove how awesome you think you are in order to defend your friend. There is no point. 

Hot does not equal dangerous. Chance is dangerous, horses that rear at the in-gate are dangerous.


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## SeWHC (Jul 1, 2009)

I'm caught up. Whew, now that I'm calmed down.... 

Magnesium is what is used in mare magic, it is a calming agent. Raspberry leaves are full of magnesium, which I believe is in Mare Magic, actually. It wont hurt, but it won't be a quick fix. It is actually very good for horses, the body uses it for several different things.


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## lacyloo (Jul 1, 2008)

WOW "Who wants popcorn?"

*Rebellion*..It seems that you care MORE about Chance than HAF's safety. 


*HAF-*
Have you tried sending her off to a trainer ?.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

^^no kidding! I'm quite proud of myself for not piping in on the majority of this interweb screaming contest. But its entertaining to watch certain people make donkeys out of themselves 

But I believe she's said training is a no go, her parents won't pay for something that is 100% for sure. If you ask me, her parents are dumb for risking their daughters life just because training MIGHT not work. Or not making her sell Chance.


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## lacyloo (Jul 1, 2008)

Oh okay.


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## coffeemama (Jul 10, 2009)

HorsesAreForever said:


> This isn't the first time. Shes way to unpredictable. When you even start to let your guard down she pulls this stuff.
> 
> I just dont feel like its worth it.
> 
> She may work better with a different owner, I feel like i've given her everything I can.


I am at this point with mine, as well. We have started Parelli's and he is responding very well. However, in the saddle it's a different story. Whenever he decides, right in mid stride, he decides he doesn't want to work anymore and wants out of the arena and gets the rider off (not just me) and then takes off out the arena and around the property of if arena gate is shut he takes off around arena like a mad man, kicking out, etc and bolting. Every time someone comes off it just reinforces his behavior. Again, Parelli's is really working on the ground. He is a very dominant left brained extrovert and doesn't need a leader. The Parelli instructor mentioned he might be good for me some day but not neccessarily right now or a year from now but maybe some day. I've been riding my trainers lesson horse for now because I really miss riding. He is just so unpredictable, he will pull this at a moments notice when everything seems to be going well and I'm not asking much of him, just basic stuff. He pulled same stuff at a more heightened level with an advanced rider who barely stayed on him and then came off him at the jump. Had him vet checked, floated, he has custom saddle that fits him nicely. It's not that, it's him. He has been allowed to get away with this stuff all his life I guess and previous owner of course claims surprise when she hears about it like he was a saint with her ... IMO it's him being a bully. He's sweet otherwise but he is not a good match for me right now. I don't need an expensive pet. I've been in hospital twice already. Two falls in two weeks. Frustrating he's so off and on...when he's on he's wonderful. next day...way off, very unpleasant and can't change him on those days no matter how well I work with him on the ground. I obviously totally feel for you.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Matt.... you haven't see Chance in a year. Yes shes A LOT more settled.. even YOU know that chance is VERY well able and would kill someone .. as much as I hate to admit that. Last year...The time on teh trail... the arena with the tractor... were you there for the time she went total brunco on megan??? Im not gonna lie Chance has a BAD streak.. when sehs good shes GOOD but when she feel like being bratty she usually will go full out. Shes deffinately NOT out to get me thats the LAST thing shes doing. Shes saved me from falling off her when riding bareback or if she refused if I started to go over her head she pops me right back into teh saddle if needed. And Its not just a reaction cause I slide down her neck all the time and she knows to put her head down usually if im on her neck. So shes not out to get me at all.

I was actaully thinking about mare magic but now im little more convinced on getting it knowing that. 

My mom has wanted me to sell chance for the past year. Shes afraid im gonna get hurt aswell. 

CM- Thanks for sharing you story  Its good to now it may not just be me. Two falls in a week? I hope your okay.


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## Rebellion (May 20, 2009)

I put my mare on mare magic a couple weeks before an upcoming show and it worked great! And Michele I may have not seen her in over a year but I talk to you almost every night. I think you are making her out to be more then she is. She is dangerous to you but maybe not to dangerous to someone else. I really hope you come to your decision soon. At this point I see the pos and negs of keeping and selling her so ultimately its YOUR choice. Do you want a horse you can enjoy thats easier for you to ride or do you want to continue working with Chance when theres no garentee that she'll turn out to be the horse for you. I was so up on you keeping her because I know how much you love her and what kid of relationship you do have with her. Others on here have made some great points that make me think more in depth about your safety. In my personal opinion if your not sure what you want to do with her why dont you make her a sale ad anyway and see what comes out of it? Just a thought.

Goodluck


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## Rebellion (May 20, 2009)

SeWHC said:


> If you mean gaming, how did you stay on with EQ like you posted in the pictures earlier?
> .


I've ended this bad streak so I think you need to. My EQ isnt bad? So I'm not sure what your talking about. I have little things to work on as does everyone else.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Its not just me, the person who rode chance after I fell off even said theres no garentee that she would be staying on if chance was to pull that again. Chance is good at getting you off when she wants you to be off. LOL I already posted my choice like 5 times. Im not going for a 6th... 

But anyways this needs to end. I thanked everyone in the other posts.. so I was hoping that would end this thread.


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## 3neighs (Jul 15, 2008)

Good luck with your horse, this thread has run its course.


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