# Palomino Pintaloosa?



## Tremor (Jun 28, 2011)

I have a little filly, born June 2010, that stumps me. 

She's a palomino from what we can tell with unknown white. She is a VERY light palomino which of course hides her white. 

She has a blaze and four legs markings. 

She has pink skin EVERYWHERE. Eyes, mouth/nose, genitalia, etc. She has white hooves as well. She does however have appy spots and some black spots on her mouth and genitals. 

Dam (Silver Smokey Black?):









Sire (Silver Black Appaloosa):









Young:

















Winter:

















Summer:

















My filly's sire, has pinto background in him but has never thrown a pinto foal.

Is my filly's expansive pink skin caused by markings and is her eye related to being a pinto or an appaloosa?

I'm hoping that in next May/June when I clip her that I'll be able to see markings galore. I highly doubt it though. 

For those people who don't know anything about color, SHE IS NOT A CREMELLO OR PERLINO. She is a palomino. :wink:

Thanks.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Well that really is interesting. She almost looks cremello in the foal pics, more so in the adult pics, but she's got that dark eye. Cremellos ALWAYS have two blue eyes.

But her face white does not cover the dark eye, which has pink skin anyway. If she WAS palomino, the skin away from her markings would be dark.

...dominant white maybe? I don't know a huge amount about it but at the moment it looks like being the most likely possibility, at least to me.

A blue eye can be caused by splashed white or frame. I personally have never seen an appy with one or both blue eyes that did not also carry one of these two patterns, or was not cremello/perlino. However, dominant white also can and does cause blue eyes. I believe they can be blue, brown or amber if a horse is DW? Correct me if I'm wrong.

You're so determined she is pally but she really does not look it to me. Have you had her tested?

EDIT; My mum's horse is a REALLY pale pali, he is literally WHITE in winter and really pale gold in summertime. You can still see his markings really crisply and he has no pink skin anywhere other than under his markings... so IMHO this miniature is NOT palomino.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

I just wanna say, I hate minis. They are always so over the top with their colour expressions lol.

If she was DW, you wouldn't be able to see her blaze in the foal shots - as far as I am aware DW is not a progressive colour, it is the same from birth on.

Have either parents been verified by testing?


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Best verification IMO is testing the foal herself... JMO of course. It's what, $25? And then you can know for absolute sure.

EDIT; and of course I've completely forgotten the most basic rule of dominant white... that it is DOMINANT. Therefore if I was right with the DW theory one or both parents would be DW. So clearly I can't possibly be right.

Hmm. But what else would cause pink skin and a dark eye?


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## equinluvr (Sep 10, 2011)

What about champange?


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

The pink would normally be darker and mottled in a champagne, and they don't usually have dark eyes, but color-wise, yes, maybe a pali champagne would be a similar color? (is it called gold champagne??)

I don't know a lot about champagne other than that the skin is usually a darkish mottled pink and that the eyes are often amber, hazel, or even green.

Edit; on another glance, that fluffy winter pic looks like it might be a little bit mottled, and it is DEFINITELY darker than the foal pics.

I would be very interested to see the results of genetic testing on this horse.


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## equinluvr (Sep 10, 2011)

equinluvr said:


> What about champange?


Gold Champange; The usual way the Champagne gene affects a red (chestnut/sorrel) based horse is to create a golden body color with a flaxen, or near-white, mane & tail. This horse is usually registered as a Palomino, even though the skin is some shade of pink with freckles, not the normal dark skin of the Palomino


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

^ so explain why she's so pale? She is nearly white all over!

My explanation for THAT would be that there is the possibility she might also have cream, making palomino partially correct. I can't for the life of me remember what pali+champagne is called though.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

A single champagne and a single cream can mimic a double dilute, and you would get a pale horse like this. However, champagne is a simple dominant, so one of the parents would have to display it to be able to pass it on. Neither of the parents have champagne IMO.


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## equinluvr (Sep 10, 2011)

I was just making a suggestion thats all. 

Chiila is right normally sire or dam would show signs of champange unless it can skip a generation... Would love to see what the test would tell us. 

Whatever color she is she's a beauty! :wink:


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Don't know about her color, but she sure is a cutie!


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## Tremor (Jun 28, 2011)

I only say palomino so adimently because its the only possibility in my mind that makes sense. 

I also don't think she's champagne because there is no champagne on either side of her lines. I also owned both mare and stallion. The mare had no mottling whatsoever and the stud's mottling was varnish related. This fillies full sibiling was a brown filly who looked nothing like this filly in color or conformation. 

I'm really not worried about this fillies coloring all that much, but its been making me wonder as to why she has SO much pink skin with minimal mottling. I may just have to see how she looks when I clip her! :lol:


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Chiilaa said:


> I just wanna say, I hate minis. They are always so over the top with their colour expressions lol.


I second this. 

I honestly am at a loss with most mini patterns and colors unless they're pretty obvious, so I'm just going to lurk and see if anyone else has any ideas. Seeing a clipped picture would probably helpful. Testing would be too, but it would get kind of spendy to do several tests just for curiosity's sake.


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## Tremor (Jun 28, 2011)

Poseidon said:


> I second this.
> 
> I honestly am at a loss with most mini patterns and colors unless they're pretty obvious, so I'm just going to lurk and see if anyone else has any ideas. Seeing a clipped picture would probably helpful. Testing would be too, but it would get kind of spendy to do several tests just for curiosity's sake.



I do have two HORRIBLE pictures of her clipped (a month after maybe?). And by horrible I mean her condition. Which has changed a lot, and I am grateful for it. 

I'd rather that nobody commented on her condition or grooming. I have worked long and hard to get her up to weight and acting like a horse. This filly until a month or two ago had never played. Feeding her good just caused her to blossom. 

I also had to deal with skin issues because I clipped her too early. Her skin became flaky and dirt would become matted into her skin. I had to scrub her hard during her many baths just to get it out. So, all of that dark on her neck is actually dirt. Not black pigmentation.

I just wanted to get that out before people started bashing me about the condition in these pictures. We've come a long way.

As for the halter, it was too big for her but I didn't want to put a blocky halter on her that would hide her head. She had a very petite head that I wanted to show off.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

She is an odd critter that's for sure. Almost looks like a grey to me, but that pink skin... -shrugs- well I'm totally confused!


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Like I posted in the other thread, you can't judge a horse's color by a shaved coat.  

Unfortunately Tremor, the only way to pin down exactly what your girl is is to have her tested. Everything else is just speculation as she is so light.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Agreed with the above, with one point of disagreement. Light horses often don't change very much. I had a little grey that just stayed the same colour when you clipped him, and Mum has a pally that stays exactly the same. JME of course, and it's only the two I quoted plus a few other greys. Greys just don't change when you clip them.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

ooo speculation time. Maybe she was born something like a light pali and then greyed out? That would explain being born darker than she's matured, at least...

EDIT; that above theory is solely based on the fact that the sire looks a bit greyish... but of course if he's black based and spotted (which he obviously is) that might just be LP roaning.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Tremor said:


> I have a little filly, born June 2010, that stumps me.
> 
> She's a palomino from what we can tell with unknown white. She is a VERY light palomino which of course hides her white.
> 
> ...


I find this funny your in the color and genetics forum asking what color your horse is yet you have this comment....****


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## Tremor (Jun 28, 2011)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> I find this funny your in the color and genetics forum asking what color your horse is yet you have this comment....****


Well, you know how people are when they see a whitish horse with a blue eye. They yell double dilute when it isn't possible. The only thing possible genetically is the palomino. 

I'm more interested in why she has pink skin EVERYWHERE.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Tremor said:


> Well, you know how people are when they see a whitish horse with a blue eye. They yell double dilute when it isn't possible. The only thing possible genetically is the palomino.
> 
> I'm more interested in why she has pink skin EVERYWHERE.


Tremor, Does the dam have Appy in her? If so, she could be a few-spot, with or without a creme gene, in which case the pink skin would be normal. There is also the possibility that she has a maximully expressed blanket with a light palomino base so overall it looks like she is the same color...in that case, most of the skin would be pink, although you would expect to find pigmented skin in the neck area and mid leg area below where the blaket would go but above any underlying white leg markings. I have a two palomino leopards by the way, and one has pink skin all over and the other doesn't...confusing, huh?...:lol:


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Tremor said:


> Well, you know how people are when they see a whitish horse with a blue eye. They yell double dilute when it isn't possible. The only thing possible genetically is the palomino.
> 
> I'm more interested in why she has pink skin EVERYWHERE.


Has the dam been tested? She doesn't scream smokey black to me, with the silver too. How do you know she is smokey?


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## Tremor (Jun 28, 2011)

Faceman said:


> Tremor, Does the dam have Appy in her? If so, she could be a few-spot, with or without a creme gene, in which case the pink skin would be normal. There is also the possibility that she has a maximully expressed blanket with a light palomino base so overall it looks like she is the same color...in that case, most of the skin would be pink, although you would expect to find pigmented skin in the neck area and mid leg area below where the blaket would go but above any underlying white leg markings. I have a two palomino leopards by the way, and one has pink skin all over and the other doesn't...confusing, huh?...:lol:


I have researched the horses in her dam's lines (as well as sire) and the majority of what I find are pintos, blacks, bays, silver bays, chestnuts, buckskins, etc. 

No greys on her dams. Nor appies. 

The homozygous appy thing is something that I've pondered but both my mom and I agree that it just isn't possible for her to be a few spot. 

She DOES have appy spots and very slight mottling on her lips and eyes. That is the extent of her black pigmentation.

I'm really not a fan of her color to be honest. I don't like mottled skin, pink skin, or blue eyes. Here I am the owner of four appaloosas, and a cremello. 

I'd kill for a bay.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Well if the dam has no Appy in her she can't be a few spot of course, but could still be a large blanket with a light palomino base. Who knows with those little guys - the minis can be a color nightmare/mystery because they have been bred for color so much over the generations...


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## dunfold (Nov 15, 2010)

Looks like silver dapple palomino appaloosa from here. And Yes silver does affect cream. It is only red (chestnut) it dont affect. Gorgeous mum the filly got


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

dunfold said:


> Looks like silver dapple palomino appaloosa from here. And Yes silver does affect cream. It is only red (chestnut) it dont affect. Gorgeous mum the filly got


It doesn't affect red, and since palomino is a red horse with a single cream, silver doesn't express.


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## Tremor (Jun 28, 2011)

Faceman said:


> Well if the dam has no Appy in her she can't be a few spot of course, but could still be a large blanket with a light palomino base. Who knows with those little guys - the minis can be a color nightmare/mystery because they have been bred for color so much over the generations...


Which is one of the reasons I've decided NOT to sell her. 

She has three things people would want, pinto, appy, and palomino. But she has horrible conformation, and she's SO small. I doubt any backyard breeder would pay attention to the 2 in margin between mare and stallion. 

So, lil' Sweetheart is staying with me because she's a very small pinto/appy/palomino filly with teeth that need extra attention. (Had my vet check her teeth)

If she were a colt I would have gelded her last March. Unfortunately my stallion left a mark in his last two years here and broke the filly drought and produced three in two years. 

Darned stallion.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Have either parents been tested?


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## Tremor (Jun 28, 2011)

Chiilaa said:


> Have either parents been tested?


No, but on the stallion's behalf it isn't needed because of foals and parentage. I've also seen his dam, (a beautiful silver dapple appaloosa mare in a HUGE retirement herd. I'll be visiting her again next spring hopefully.)

The dam was more of an educated guess. She's either a VERY dark palomino (possible) or the silver smokey black. Both are possible with her parents. (Smokey black dam and silver black sire)'

Here's another picture of her dam:









And another in 2007 with her filly by the same stud:


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