# Finding a Western saddle that fits



## Element574 (Apr 23, 2017)

I am having one heck of a time fitting my 15.3h medium build Appaloosa gelding for a Western saddle. The challenge is finding a tree that matches the shape of his back: prominent wither with a broad shoulder and relatively flat back...

I mostly ride English and just for pleasure but prefer a Western saddle for trails and gaming. I want something lighter (25 lbs ish) but decent quality and preferably under $1500 (that's Canadian $). New or used.

His English saddle is a Wintec AP with the extra wide gullet (white one) and that saddle has nice, even contact all along the tree.

For Western, so far we've tried:

Wintec semi-qh bars pleasure saddle- I initially assumed since he had a high wither and isn't stocky, he wouldn't be full QH bars. This was a saddle I had from a previous horse and it was way too tight on the shoulder. After a good back with lots of galloping, he had worked up a thorough sweat and there was a large triangle dry patch on both sides of his back, starting at the shoulder and progressing up his back showing extensive pressure. Everywhere else was soaked

Next was a lightly used Circle Y trail saddle with the Flex2 tree, regular width (04). It was an improvement from the first saddle but still tight in the shoulder. After a short ride in it, it was clearly not a good fit.

Third was the High Horse Mesquite trail saddle (also made by Circle Y) with a wide Ralide tree (05). This seemed to fit well in the shoulder but had way too much rock and the bars were a good inch off his back when I cinched it up. Everywhere else seemed to have pretty even pressure. I rode briefly in the saddle, initially thinking it might work but the poor fit in the back quickly became evident and also caused the back end of the saddle to slide from side to side.

Deciding to try something completely different, I picked up a Western Rawhide trail saddle with a wide tree (full qh bars). Not sure what tree they use. I didn't even bother cinching this one up because it was so evident that it wasn't a fit when I placed it on his back.

I'm not an expert by any means and after hours of researching, watching youtube videos, and talking to tack store employees, I am quite frankly more confused than I was at the start (and convinced that none of my horses growing up probably had a proper fitting saddle).

So Western experts, based on the facts and your own experiences, any thoughts or advice? Any brands that use trees that would seem a better fit based on my description? I'm open to working with a saddle fitter, I just don't know of any that specialize in Western fitting in Southwestern Ontario (Kitchener). Custom isn't really an option given my budget and how infrequently I ride Western. I also don't think that my horse is such a strange build that there are no readymade saddles out there that will fit.


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## Element574 (Apr 23, 2017)

Photos of the Wintec (#1) with semi-qh bars


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## Element574 (Apr 23, 2017)

Photos of the Circle Y (#2) with regular (04) Flex2 tree


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## Element574 (Apr 23, 2017)

Photos of the High Horse (#3) with wide (05) Ralide tree.


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## Element574 (Apr 23, 2017)

Saddle #4, Western Rawhide with wide tree


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## Element574 (Apr 23, 2017)

And finally some pics of my horse's conformation. And how the English saddle fits.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hi, I'm not a 'western expert' by any stretch - haven't even owned a western for around 20 years. But since I've made a point of learning a lot about saddle fit & design, and no one else has replied... 

Firstly, it is hard to discern saddle fit just from pics, but you need to first get rid of the padding - just show the saddle directly on the horse. It's impossible to tell anything about the fit of those saddles with pads under them. Of course most westerns have little/no cushion under the tree so do need a good pad, which may change the saddle fit, but you need to start with a saddle that fits the horse reasonably without. Also many of the different angles you've taken don't give anything much away. Get your horse to stand squarely, take a pic from side-on squarely, from in front of the shoulder, sighting down the gullet - from above too & on a bit of an angle can also be helpful there. And when picturing from behind, stand your horse as squarely as possible(of course, many horses are assymetrical, so won't ever fit a symmetrical saddle well, without careful 'shimming' at least) and sight squarely along the spine, not from one side or another, or with the horse twisting his head around.

It does appear, from the 1st & 3rd pics, that saddle doesn't fit like that - no need to ride in it. It's unclear if it were rigged differently - further back, so not pulling the front down hard - whether it may sit better, and the lack of... is it called flare? Where the bars bevel out from the horse at the front could perhaps be compensated for adequately if you had a pad placed so the front was an inch or 2 back from the front of the saddle. The saddle pictured on the sheet - 16th or such pic - is a terrible fit at the front at least, being too wide gullet and far too straight bars. Different girth positions - called rigging in westerns - will effect the fit of any saddle, and regardless how the saddle may sit without the girth/cynch done up, too forward rigging will pull the saddle down at the front & allow the back to come up.

Your horse doesn't actually look particularly broad shouldered, or flat backed. Of course pics may be deceiving there too. But I have found that 'normal' width saddles are often too narrow through gullet and channel for *any* horse - they aren't wide enough to sit well on the muscles & adequately clear the spine/wither. I've found, in using a Wintec with an extra wide gullet plate on my own horses as well as other's I ride & train, that this is a very common fit, that anything narrower is too narrow for most. Of course English saddles fit differently & there's the bar angle to consider, not just gullet width of a Western. But that flare at the front of the bars is also very relevant to a western, as they're often built to sit more forward over the scapula. For any saddle, the bearing surface should start at least about 2" behind the rear of the scapula when the leg's extended(& scapula back). But in a western, if the bars are suitably flared, that doesn't mean the entire tree needs to sit that far back.

So... First thing I'd suggest is to learn as much as you can about saddle fit & horse comfort. One site(haven't looked at in a very long time...) that had some great info is Balance International. They are into English & do(did) not like Westerns or Aussie Stocks for fit generally, but I think what you'll learn there will help you with any saddle type. Obviously learning specifically about western fit particulars is also important if that's what you want, and there are many good online sources for that. You will also find links & suggestions in the tack section of the forum. 

I'm not sure what situation you're in re trying saddles, but even if you can take your horse to a saddler with a big selection, it's a good idea to have a template of your horse's back, so you can have a fair idea the shape it needs to be before bringing it home - eg. If you had even just a wither template, you wouldn't have bothered trying that one pictured on the sheet. You can use some easily bendable wire, or I like to use those architect's... bendy things - I think they're called flexicurves, found cheaply on ebay - which bend easily & hold their exact shape. You can just trace the shapes onto paper or card and cut them out, to hold against the underside of saddles. You will need a 'gullet' measurement, vertically at around 2-3" behind scapula, a measurement along the length of the back, from scapula to the last rib. (with the gullet point marked along it). This will tell you the length and 'rock' the saddle needs to be(tho as with flared fronts, western 'skirts' can extend past the last rib, so long as bearing surface of tree doesn't much). **Be aware esp with 'rock measurements that if you measure your horse standing still with his head up, there will be more sway to his back than if he's got his head down or working well. And I like to have a measurement vertically about midline and for the last rib/back of tree, to ensure the back of the saddle will also sit well - not be too flat or rounded, and these measurements will give some idea about 'twist' altho not accurately I think.

And then, if it's still too difficult to find a western that fits & you feel English trees are better for him, you might consider a 'half breed'(aka crossbreed, hybrid, in states 'Endurance' may be half breed types) or Australian Stock saddle as alternatives. Tho I have been told half breeds aren't so common in the states, and most are built on a western type tree rather than Stock/English.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

The first thing I'm noticing is yes, its hard to tell anything for the saddle pads, but also... You have the saddles too far back and the pads too far front. I don't know how much any of those weigh, but after saddling progressively larger horses with progressively heavier saddles for the past year or more, I can say it looks like you're not getting enough Umph behind the saddle as you're swinging it up, so its 'landing' too far back... which makes its even harder to tell how its fitting.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

this is my super quick impression. I'm gonna write this, then go back and look again.

I see the first saddles as not too narrow, but too wide. they hurt the horse's shoulders because they are too wide at the bottome of the bar angle, and too narrow at the top. so they fall forward and dig into and behind the shoulder blade. 

the angle of the last saddle, a wide, is better, but if you had the same angle, but just narrower, I think it might be a decent fit. that wide saddle, padded out , might work.

but, the firsdt saddles , IMO, don't work not because of being too narrow, but due to being not upright enough in the angle of the bars.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Element574 said:


> Wintec semi-qh bars pleasure saddle- I initially assumed since he had a high wither and isn't stocky, he wouldn't be full QH bars. This was a saddle I had from a previous horse and it was way too tight on the shoulder.


Your pictures don't really show how the bar angle lines up with your horse's shoulder, but by how DOWNHILL it is sitting, the gullet and/or bar angle is too wide for your horse. 

If that is too wide (the gullet), it will make the saddle sit down tight on the shoulders because all the weight is going downhill.




Element574 said:


> Next was a lightly used Circle Y trail saddle with the Flex2 tree, regular width (04). It was an improvement from the first saddle but still tight in the shoulder. After a short ride in it, it was clearly not a good fit.


Also hard to tell with your photos, but seems to be the same problem as the Wintec but not as bad. Gullet is too wide so the saddle is sitting downhill on the horse. Bar angle seems to be okay (maybe a smidge wide) but hard to tell in the photos. 



Element574 said:


> Third was the High Horse Mesquite trail saddle (also made by Circle Y) with a wide Ralide tree (05).


Can't tell a thing on saddle fit with that pad under it. Need to see the saddle bare on the horse's back.



Element574 said:


> Deciding to try something completely different, I picked up a Western Rawhide trail saddle with a wide tree (full qh bars). Not sure what tree they use. I didn't even bother cinching this one up because it was so evident that it wasn't a fit when I placed it on his back.


Yup, I agree. Horrible fit. Too much rock in the tree; way too wide gullet; narrow bars. 



Element574 said:


> I'm not an expert by any means and after hours of researching, watching youtube videos, and talking to tack store employees, I am quite frankly more confused than I was at the start (and convinced that none of my horses growing up probably had a proper fitting saddle).
> 
> So Western experts, based on the facts and your own experiences, any thoughts or advice? Any brands that use trees that would seem a better fit based on my description?


Frustrating indeed. This is the dilemma with western saddles. There is no standards whatsoever from brand to brand and even the slightest difference in tree shape can make a big difference. And there's no way to modify a western saddle. Either it fits or it doesn't. 

Based on what I'm seeing with what you tried so far, see if you can find something with a more narrow gullet. I probably would stick with semi-QH bars for now (but again, no standard from brand to brand).

If you can get a "close enough" fit, sometimes you can get away with shimmer the front of the saddle to make do for it sitting a little bit downhill.

Hard to tell from your photo, but I think the gullet on your English saddle may be too wide too, although it is certainly a better fit than the Western saddles.


I feel your frustration because I am back on the saddle hunt myself!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

beau said so well what I was trying to say (regarding the first saddles).


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