# Horse wont back up :(



## brookebum (Oct 1, 2010)

My horse wont back up. ever.
In the saddle with a bridle on, I niggle and tell him to back, I pull back, I squeeze my legs on.. Nothing will make him move back.
On the ground even, when Im trying to move him like 2 steps backwards to do something with him, I grap his halter and pull backwards, and the pressure does nothing. I lean into him, I push his chest, and it does nothing. 
Help!!


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Sounds like a respect issue and a pressure/release issue. 

Since you're obviously not still pushing your horse to back up right now... you've taught him that if he waits and does nothing, he eventually gets left alone.

Not a good start... 

Does he yield to pressure well in other areas? Can you get him to yield to pressure on his neck, on his face, on his legs? He is able to turn on the forehand, haunches, leg yield? Do you lunge him, do you do any other groundwork with him?

How long have you had him? Are you new to horses, been around horses, is this your first horse, etc. ?

We all need more information to help


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## kritter keeper (Feb 26, 2009)

my paint has chronic back issues and i am working on some ground exercises one of them being to back up a few steps. in the beginning he didn't want to do this and now of course he is fine. take it one step at a time, if one leg moves back, reward your horse immediately. be sure nothing is in his way and he has a lot of room. i repeatedly said the word 'back' while i gently pushed his chest. he was very resistant at first but with patience and rewards, your horse will come along. i never used the whip or any form of punishment, that is not how to teach a horse to do something new. horses usually want to please us unless they experienced abuse in their past or are currently experiencing pain. so many people don't understand that....good luck!


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

You need someone to show you how. Too much can go wrong if not done correctly, like rearing.


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## becca289 (Jan 9, 2012)

When doing ground work with my horse he backs up perfectly just by hearing the word. But when i ride him he doesn't always respond, he is head shy and doesn't like to be pulled by a lead he rears back. Some days he backs up other days he starts shaking his head and doing everything but reverse. Any suggestions ???


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## brookebum (Oct 1, 2010)

kritter keeper said:


> my paint has chronic back issues and i am working on some ground exercises one of them being to back up a few steps. in the beginning he didn't want to do this and now of course he is fine. take it one step at a time, if one leg moves back, reward your horse immediately. be sure nothing is in his way and he has a lot of room. i repeatedly said the word 'back' while i gently pushed his chest. he was very resistant at first but with patience and rewards, your horse will come along. i never used the whip or any form of punishment, that is not how to teach a horse to do something new. horses usually want to please us unless they experienced abuse in their past or are currently experiencing pain. so many people don't understand that....good luck!


 Thats what I do...
Every time he moves the slightest bit back the pressure comes of and I tell him he is good. Sometimes he will walk back a few steps and its all ggood, but other times he will not move no matter how hard I try,


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## brookebum (Oct 1, 2010)

waresbear said:


> You need someone to show you how. Too much can go wrong if not done correctly, like rearing.


 I rarely bother asking him on his back,
the biggest issue is on the ground when i need him to move. I pull back on his hakter, ush into him and say back and nothing ahppens. no reaction at all.


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## brookebum (Oct 1, 2010)

Skyseternalangel said:


> Sounds like a respect issue and a pressure/release issue.
> 
> Since you're obviously not still pushing your horse to back up right now... you've taught him that if he waits and does nothing, he eventually gets left alone.
> 
> ...


 its "not a goos start" but what am I supposed to do about it? I dont even care about backin up under saddle, but on the ground, he doenst move. I need himt o move out the way, backwards, and he just doesnt move. No amound of pressure does anything. When im oushing him back or im not, there is no reaction, or difference. I can easily push him over sideways when tied up and stuff. Im not new to horses, and he isnt my first but I reallky dont even have an understanding of what forhand =, haunches and how to teach/ ask leg yield. He is very very green. I lunge him often, spend a lot of time with him, do basic join-up and follow-up and all that jazz. I have had him since september. I kinda just asked for how to actually fix the problem... :/


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

Get a trainer.

Firstly, have his back checked. Make sure there is no pain stopping him from doing it.

If you can't get him to walk back on the ground, that is a serious respect issue, you need a trainer to assess what is going on and work with you both. Warebear is right, in can cause rearing, on the floor as well as in the saddle as an evasive behaviour.

Get this cracked- one hole somewhere will lead to many more later on.

Good luck


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

brookebum said:


> its "not a goos start" but what am I supposed to do about it? I dont even care about backin up under saddle, but on the ground, he doenst move. I need himt o move out the way, backwards, and he just doesnt move. No amound of pressure does anything. When im oushing him back or im not, there is no reaction, or difference. I can easily push him over sideways when tied up and stuff. Im not new to horses, and he isnt my first but I reallky dont even have an understanding of what forhand =, haunches and how to teach/ ask leg yield. He is very very green. I lunge him often, spend a lot of time with him, do basic join-up and follow-up and all that jazz. I have had him since september. I kinda just asked for how to actually fix the problem... :/


I know you're frustrated and I hope I didn't come off as witchy. Try to get energized inside when you want the horse to change how they are. Grow taller.. make noise, seem bigger. It'll help your case a lot. 

And it's okay to not understand all of those terms.. as long as you understand the idea (the reason you do this.. what it does, etc.) behind them. But that's something else entirely  

The way I taught my horse to back up is stand by his shoulder.. take your leadrope in your outer hand (the one away from his face) and spin it infront of his face (always swinging it down never up to his chin) until the rope hits his nose (it doesn't hurt it's just a bit different to them) and when he takes a step back, then stop spinning. Pretty soon they'll start moving back moreso with the notion of a gentle swining rope or just the voice cue or just watching your body.

If he DOESN'T move at all (it'll take awhile..) increase the pressure... spin that lead-rope really fast and bring it closer to his face until he changes.. then as soon as he does.. stop the spinning and relax.

I hope that helps! Just don't stand infront of him.. to the side of his shoulder.



brookebum said:


> Thats what I do...
> Every time he moves the slightest bit back the pressure comes of and I tell him he is good. Sometimes he will walk back a few steps and its all ggood, but other times he will not move no matter how hard I try,


Then make him more forward.. lunge that sucker until he gets the idea that when you tell him something, he better respond. Or try asking him to yield by putting pressure on his side where your leg would go. It helps to have a whip in the other hand incase he tries to move into the pressure instead of away. 

Then try backing him up and as soon as he shifts weight, ease up on the pressure but don't stop it.. when he takes a step back, ease up even more but keep the pressure on until you are happy with the steps he took back.

But please.. if you aren't confident or if he is too much to deal with, ask someone experienced to give you a hand. Some horses you can't tell what they're going to react to or how they will react so you have to be ready.



Also.. do you use a rope halter? 









The horse can feel the pressure better than just a regular nylon/web/leather.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Yes, you can teach him to back up. 

And yes, there are some horses that develop so much resistance to backing up that they just plain say NO! NO! NO! I'll die first!!! There is no physical problem and there is not 'real' reason other than they did not have to do it to begin with so they decided to just NOT DO IT.

I have taught several of these horses to back up when I trained for the public. I tried several different ways and settled on this one:

I tie the horse to a solid fence using a hard rope halter with two lead-ropes attached. [I want it to 'bite'.] I am lucky because I have a pipe arena. I tie the horse with about 4 or 5 feet of lead - much longer than if I tied and left a horse.

Then, I hold the second lead-rope that's attached to the halter. I lead the horse as far forward as I can with the fence on his right, until he runs out of lead-rope and the tied lead stops him. Then, I step back to his shoulder and pull to ask him to back. The tied rope keeps him from barging forward or running over me. I do not get right in front of him because some get so mad that they will strike out. I pull that second rope hard and steady and give no relief until he steps back. I have had some take a long time. I've had them 'sull' and try to lay down. One got so mad he would grind his teeth. He pawed the ground, but he backed up. 

I have not had this method fail. Every horse backed without more than normal pressure after 3 or 4 times of being tied in different places and backed up there. The harder they push into the halter, the more they punish themselves. 

I give not praise or rewards other than the release of pressure. 

I usually take a short bat and tap the chest and 'smooch' when I take the 'more willing horse' away from the fence and get him to back from just pressure and the smooch.

I have always been able to 'wean' the horse from the stiff rope halter and the tied rope with little trouble. 

Before I transfer the lesson to the saddle, I ground drive one with a second person to tap on the chest and smooch while I put pressure on the long reins. If a horse will not back up willingly and 'lightly in driving lines, it will not back up lightly while ridden. 

Every horse I have been brought to 'fix' for this problem has always learned to back up lightly both in hand and under saddle.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

I find Cherie's method to be good horsemanship, except for one thing: I believe in really letting the horse know when he's pleased me by a stroke and/or a "good boy/girl". It causes them to want to please you more. Just keep it directly proportionate to the horse's level of "try": small try, small reward, big try, big reward.


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## brookebum (Oct 1, 2010)

Skyseternalangel said:


> I know you're frustrated and I hope I didn't come off as witchy. Try to get energized inside when you want the horse to change how they are. Grow taller.. make noise, seem bigger. It'll help your case a lot.
> 
> And it's okay to not understand all of those terms.. as long as you understand the idea (the reason you do this.. what it does, etc.) behind them. But that's something else entirely
> 
> ...


Thanks  This was really helpful  Im not scared of him or anything like that, its just frustrating cos he shows np reason not to do it. He isnt scared opf anything I do to him, yanno? There is zero reaction. But I will try this today! But I dont have a rope halter. The only one I have that fits his massive head is a nylon one :/


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

I hope you figure it out!


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## goneriding (Jun 6, 2011)

Having a stifle issue will cause resistance in backing. I have never needed a rope halter to get my horses to back. Maybe it's my handling, I don't know.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

goneriding said:


> Having a stifle issue will cause resistance in backing. I have never needed a rope halter to get my horses to back. Maybe it's my handling, I don't know.


It's not a necessity, it's just what I use. I find I can communicate better with the horse. Then again my horse trashed all nylon halters so when I got him, I put him in rope and now he can happily go in everything.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Some horses do fine their entire lives with savvy horsemen & flat halters, yet the flatties don't offer any leverage; a horse can discover that he can lean/pull, with no negative consequence, at least from the halter.  OP, if your horse has already discovered this, then you can understand the sense of getting a knotty.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Well said Nothern


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Years ago, there were no knotted halters. There were flat halters and Johnson Rope Halters. Those old rope halter did not break (when new), but they were not training tools, so everything had to be trained in flat halters and rope or chain lead-shanks. Tough horses and studs got trained with a chain shank.

Since the stiff little rope halters came along, stud chains have become all but obsolete everywhere but TB farms that stayed with flat leather halter and chain shanks. Lots of stud farms also stayed with them. About everyone else now uses or at least has the light-weight little tied rope halters around.

90% + of horses never need anything more than a flat halter. That other 10% has found that they are bigger and stronger than a flat halter, so you need a chain shank or a rope halter to school them in and then almost all of them can go back to a flat halter.

This horse has already found out that his handler cannot 'make' him back up. He has also made up his mind that he does not plan on backing up. These two things put together in the same horse means that you have to go to 'plan B'. You have to have a halter with a little 'bite' to it and tying him to the fence where he cannot 'barge' through the pressure on his nose will make the difference and he will decide it is easier to just back up. He is not going to like it and will take a session or two of 'winning' by the handler for the horse to want to give up the bull-headed behavior. 

At this point, he is pretty spoiled and this behavior WILL spill over into his riding at some time. The pure bull-headed "I'm NOT going to do that!" will go beyond backing on the ground. That is just how they are.

Backing is particularly important to ALL ground and under saddle training. It is the ultimate act of submission. It is the key to good ground manners and behavior and it is the key to good transitions and stops under saddle. You don't have good stops if you do not have a good 'resistant free' back-up. It is just too big of a 'deal' in the training of horses to skip that lesson. You really should not go on until it is fixed.


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## brookebum (Oct 1, 2010)

Cherie said:


> Years ago, there were no knotted halters. There were flat halters and Johnson Rope Halters. Those old rope halter did not break (when new), but they were not training tools, so everything had to be trained in flat halters and rope or chain lead-shanks. Tough horses and studs got trained with a chain shank.
> 
> Since the stiff little rope halters came along, stud chains have become all but obsolete everywhere but TB farms that stayed with flat leather halter and chain shanks. Lots of stud farms also stayed with them. About everyone else now uses or at least has the light-weight little tied rope halters around.
> 
> ...


 Thats all fine,
but I dont know how he is "spoiled"?
I'm not lazy, im not complety without knowledge and im doing all in my power to fix the problem. im tough with him. Im seeking help. He isnt spoiled.


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