# Acting like a jerk at the end of a lesson — temper tantrum or something else?



## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

It sounds like when the 'friends' arrived, the dynamics changed. My horse usually tries to test me more to see what he can get away with when others enter or leave the arena.

As long as you ended on a good note, that's what counts.

Maybe in future, keep training lessons under an hour. Quality is better than quantity.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

Always check for pain, but a lot of horses will go "ahem, this is MY field time and you have never ridden me this long before?!"
Attention span, tiredness... The biggest thing to do, if it isn't pain related, is push through it. You don't have to spend another ten minutes on cantering, just move his feet.. Leg yield, change direction.. Let him know you are in charge. Duffy did this as she got fitter, and I very nearly went flying. She tried again on only one other occasion.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

I doubt he was tired, and think he was being a spoiled brat. He was testing, and found out he was not going to win, which is good. He will most likely do this sometimes, after all, he would prefer to be a paddock potato.......working is HARD! ;-) I would strongly suggest that you listen to your trainer. You hire her for a reason, and stop second guessing her and yourself, and above all DON'T make excuses for the horse! Your list is classic...."poor little pooky......he must ache somewhere.....he must want his dinner....he wants his friends......Seriously. He gets 23 hours in the day to do what he wants. You get ONE, at most.  He can do this even tho he thinks it will kill him.


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## Nocturva (Mar 23, 2013)

Spoiled, testing you, pain would be a personality 180..
My horse does the same when other horses enter the arena, especially mares.
The minute they enter he stops paying attention to me and wants to do what he wants to do... afterall thats just their nature. 
Everyday isn't going to be a win, and everyday can't end on a good note that just how it is...
I think you need to learn how to "get mad" not like furious and punching your horse in the face, but I'm saying recognizing bad behavior and putting a stop to it, like having your trainer get on him and move his feet. You don't ever want to get off bc you think that him refusing to move and not turning in a circle is because he all of a sudden got sore when two other horses entered the arena, because you just said it yourself in your own post.. he did this when his trail buddies came into the arena. Don't second guess yourself!


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

While I totally agree with not letting him get away with brattiness, I also think that insisting on an hour even though he's been doing very well after 45 minutes could sour him. Ending on a good note is so important, especially with a horse which never really did "school" work.


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## Red Gate Farm (Aug 28, 2011)

Let us know how he is today


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## BlooBabe (Jul 7, 2012)

You probably did too much. Horses can only do so much. You said that he normally 'colors with crayons' and you asked him to 'do a jigsaw walking in place' that's a pretty big leap of work. Slow it down and give him time to adjust. Try to read his body language. My horse will let me know when he's done long before he refuses to move and stops listening. I'm sure your horse did the same but maybe you didn't notice it or haven't learned how he tells you.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Nocturva said:


> Spoiled, testing you, pain would be a personality 180..
> My horse does the same when other horses enter the arena, especially mares.
> The minute they enter he stops paying attention to me and wants to do what he wants to do... afterall thats just their nature.
> *Everyday isn't going to be a win, and everyday can't end on a good note that just how it is...*
> I think you need to learn how to "get mad" not like furious and punching your horse in the face, but I'm saying recognizing bad behavior and putting a stop to it, like having your trainer get on him and move his feet. You don't ever want to get off bc you think that him refusing to move and not turning in a circle is because he all of a sudden got sore when two other horses entered the arena, because you just said it yourself in your own post.. he did this when his trail buddies came into the arena. Don't second guess yourself!


 Sorry-I do NOT agree with the bolded. Every day there should be SOMETHING positive about your ride that you consider a "win". And yes, every ride-uness you fall and get injured-CAN end on a positive note. You have to know when to quit tho......For example-today I got back from a nice trail, and since my horse decided to turn toward the barn when we returned-I turned away-which set into a whole spoiled battle, much like the OP has decried with the stopping, backing and acting like an a$$ like only my guy can do when HE thinks HE should be done (aka-the other horse got to quit). I decided we would lope a little....and once he gave me ONE good circle-we were done. We ended it positively, rather than me getting off while he was refusing to move. You have to be very careful what you reinforce.

OP-yes you can have the trainer get on, but YOU will still have the same issues. YOU are the ONLY one who can solve those. Horses know the difference between "oh-trainer is on me-I better do this".....and "oh-this is my owner-she will give me a treat no matter, and if I do ABC I can intimidate her, and she will get off."


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## SammysMom (Jul 20, 2013)

Thanks, everyone. I was hoping the responses would be like these. It wasn't that I didn't trust my trainer, I just wanted to hear if you'd had similar experiences because he surprised me a little by going from 0 to idiot so abruptly. 

I did get back on after she got off and I didn't stop until I had him moving politely (and then I got right off). I know every ride can't be great, but ending at a positive point is important to me for one because I struggle with the leadership aspect of riding and can't afford to show I can be bossed around, and two because it just makes me feel good we end happily, whether it's because the whole session was good or because it went bad but we worked through it. 

Bloo and Desert, I think you're right about it being a little much. We did about 20 minutes of ground work at the beginning of the lesson, so it's not like I worked the snot out of him, but that's still a lot more focus than I usually ask of him. 

Frank and Nocturna, I'm definitely going to work on winning the spoiled battles and try to stop being so silly and overthinking everything. Of course I'll always pay attention to whether he might be in pain, but in situations where he just seems to be throwing his weight around, I really need to suck it up and not get bossed around. 

I'm going out to the barn in a few hours, and I'm hoping he isn't sore. I'll let you know if decides to be a crankypants again 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

I'd do the bare minimum today, do what he CAN do and leave it at that. So he doesn't think he got out of it, but rather that he did right.


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## SammysMom (Jul 20, 2013)

deserthorsewoman said:


> I'd do the bare minimum today, do what he CAN do and leave it at that. So he doesn't think he got out of it, but rather that he did right.


Good idea.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

hes spoiled. your green. hes testing you. trying to get away with crap. taking advantage of you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

always keep in mind that your horse has the attention span of a two year old toddler, at best. He will always be looking for something to focus on, and it's either going to be you, or something more important. He doesn't have an agenda to try and trick you out, or be a spoiled child. He just goes where he thinks things are more important. other horses and food are about the most important thing to a hrose, except a scary rustling in the bushes, and then only for a second til he knows it's the wind.

the trick is to have his attention, which mean you have to be both interesting and important. it's likely that after an hour, and if you are a moderate beginner, you did not realize that his attention was not really with you. it was probably not really all that "there" when the horses entered, and suddenly there is something very important there. He left you altogether at that point. then, it took a lot to get him back to you, mentally. As a greener rider, you are not able to be that important that he gives up the outward draw and comes back to you. Your trainer can, but even she had to work at it.

anyway, my rambling is only to say that when you are riding him, or doing groundwork with him, it can be easy to keep his attention if there is no competition. once the competition arrives, you have to be smarter to win . But, don't think of it in terms of "my horse wants to be spoiled, and has an agenda". He just follows his horsey brain, so give him something to follow.


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## SammysMom (Jul 20, 2013)

Thanks, Tiny, that helps a lot to put it in perspective. I know horses don't do things with the complexity people do, but sometimes it's easy to forget that he's doing things because he wants to, not because I _don't_ want him to. My natural passivity gets in the way of growing as a rider sometimes, but I'm glad my instincts are to be too indulgent rather than to get angry and take it out on him. This way I can find my strength and leadership pleasantly 

I rode tonight and, as desert suggested, took it easy so we were likely to have a ride where he thought he was doing a good job. He was excellent! We did yielding exercises on the ground, and then since he didn't seem sore I just walked him, working on bending, controlling the walk and doing walk-slow-stop-walk-walk out etc. and all our friends were there, too, so I practiced walking him away from the group and allowing them to get ahead of us, praising enthusiastically every time he followed a cue. He's a good boy, and the advice of all you guys is really helping us get to an awesome place 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

SammysMom said:


> I'm glad my instincts are to be too indulgent rather than to get angry and take it out on him. This way I can find my strength and leadership pleasantly
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think there is a middle ground there. being firm and having expectations is not necessarily geting angry. It's more about being really, reallly clear with what you want, not being sidetracked by the horse's emotional responses, and not giving up when you are half way there.

I just had a lesson tonight, and some things I am kind of getting, but when my teacher gets on, she expects sooooo much more out of the horse. it sometimes looks a bit rough, but what it is is the horse coming to meet her expectation, and her "hanging in there" until he does, and if his resistance is strong, it may take some time and firmness on the rider's part to change the horse's mind. But being angry is not part of that. It's being "firm".


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## SammysMom (Jul 20, 2013)

Tiny, I totally agree. I didn't mean that riders are one or the other — I just meant if I had to have a fundamental way of riding that wasn't ideal, I'm glad it's not being too rough. Of course the goal is to be like your trainer, fair but with expectations. I'm hopefully getting there 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

Also could be that horse is not paying attention to you as much as you think, if he gets more focused on other things.

Before it suited him to listen...but the second he didn't want to, he didn't.

As for comment about it is nature for horses to quit paying attention when other horses come around?

No. A well trained horse will still be listening and doing what is asked. They should continue working with no change.


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## GreySorrel (Mar 5, 2012)

I have always lived by the rule that I would rather have 45 minutes of good work than an hour of good work and the last 15 of that is a challenge. How long were you working on the circles and doing what you were doing? If you do something over and over and over, they get tired of it, or they get bored. Also, some horses dislike the arena, they prefer to be out on a trail now and then to keep their mind active.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

If you are pleased with how he does even in the first 10 min. walk him to the top end of the arena (farthest from the gate) dismount and keep him there for another 10 min or so so he doesn't get the idea that just because he's finished he's heading back to his stall/pasture. This is a good time to fine-tune his ground manners.


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## SammysMom (Jul 20, 2013)

Hello again, everyone. I've ridden I think four times since that lesson, and he's pulled the refusing-to-walk-on thing every time, but always half-heartedly, not like the major fit he threw last Wednesday. The first ride after the lesson, he did it pretty close to the beginning and I tried to get him to move on, but I didn't feel related to have the kind of fight I did with the trainer there (I've still never been on a horse when it reared, and I was nervous) so I got off, worked him on the lunge line and got back on. It went well after that. 

The other times he did it this week, all it took was a smack with the reins (they're soft reins — it didn't hurt him, just got his attention) and some firm steering and he gave up. I've been working on the things we did with the trainer but not for as long a session, and it's going well. 

I think it's just exactly what you all have said: he listens usually, but I don't have his full attention, so when there's a distraction, I lose him. I definitely feel like we're going to get through it, though.

Another rider ( the owner if the horse I leased before I got Sam) said something that made sense, too. She said horses follow their leaders, so if you're riding and a horse tries to follow other horses out if the arena or focuses on anything but you, you're not the leader, and when you are, the horse looks to you for security and therefore would rather follow what you're asking than the other horses. As I've said, leadership is not natural for me, but I'm really hoping I can get there!


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

He didn't rear, he did a temper pop. He was being a jerk because he saw other horses probably. Whatever the reason, it was corrected and part of training. Who cares why he did it, he needs to know he has to behave no matter what. I am sure my horse can come up with a million reasons to be a jerk, not one of them is tolerated.


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## SammysMom (Jul 20, 2013)

I know he didn't, but when his feet came off the ground it scared me, and I was worried he would rear. I know it's not a rational fear, but it makes me nervous. 

Anyway, I'm working on the "not tolerating" part 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

I am happy you are making progress, but one thing you said bothers me. It was the statement about the "reins are soft....." Please don't be afraid to smack him when he needs it because you are afraid to "hurt" him. Believe me-you cannot do anything close to what his friends do in the pasture. If he needs disciplining, do it like you mean it and be done. Don't be wimpy about it, since that gets no results and you end up pecking and nagging at them, thus making it worse.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Carry a riding crop and let him know what mamma's got.


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## equitate (Dec 14, 2012)

A couple of thoughts: the horse hasnt worked in two+ years, and is only about 2 months back to work (with a lameness...what kind??). It is generally accepted that any level of fitness does not come until 90s days. And with work in hand, this was more than 1.15 minutes. That's a lot (depending upon how much you were doing).

Horses do not plot against the rider, they were do what they can within the perimeters we set. A trainer should no this. It the horse cuts the circle, the question is why: not enough energy, not in front of the leg, not turning properly off the aids. That is the rider's job to solve (with help of a teacher). It worries me that you are not talking of longer and shorter strides, but rather of speeds (which puts the horse onto the forehand if too quick). It is not about winning, but rather changing behavior patterns, and certainly the horse should not get blocked (or the contract dropped) which tends to allow the horse to go up.

Certainly given his history, lameness is a possibility. But getting the horse in front of the leg is most important physically and psychologically.


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## SammysMom (Jul 20, 2013)

equitate said:


> A couple of thoughts: the horse hasnt worked in two+ years, and is only about 2 months back to work (with a lameness...what kind??). It is generally accepted that any level of fitness does not come until 90s days. And with work in hand, this was more than 1.15 minutes. That's a lot (depending upon how much you were doing).
> 
> *It had been almost an hour since the lesson started, so about 40 minutes with me in the saddle. We spent that time probably 2/3 walking and 1/3 trotting, maybe less trotting. No canter.
> 
> ...


Anyway, I'm feeling good about everything. Today I carried a crop, and the one time he tried to back when I asked him forward, I tapped him with it (just a tap, although I was prepared to make it a smack if the 'tude continued) and he didn't try it again.

I posted this original question right after that lesson, when I was really surprised by his behavior, but over the past week it's become pretty clear that I lose his attention and willingness when there's something more interesting going on. Before _and after_ the foot-planting attempts, we've had a lovely time, and I already see a lot changing since we've been working with the trainer. I'm of course going to keep watching for pain, but for now this seems like exactly what most of you said, which we can deal with


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

Glad to hear this!

My lease horse decided to try something similair yesterday evening. His owner is a guy, who rides with spurs too. I weigh half, don't wear spurs and that was the fourth time under saddle. I asked politely once, then he got a whooping.

All was well after that


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## frlsgirl (Aug 6, 2013)

Geldings can be divas too  The one I ride lets me know when he's "unhappy" about something by pinning his ears and bucking occasionally. We just work through it. We always end on a good note so when he acts that way it just means the lesson is going to drag on until he decides to cooperate.


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