# Western or English?



## WesternBella (Jan 7, 2012)

Vote & explain 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

I ride English but I want to do Western eventually too. Vote where? I don't see a poll


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

English.

Western tack leaves me feeling disconnected from the horse. And I find western saddles very uncomfortable and confining.

I like the minimalist approach of english saddles and much prefer the direct and constant contact with the horse's mouth. It does take an educated hand and seat to not use their mouths as a crutch though.

I have zero interest in working cattle so western tack serves no purpose for me.


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## lilruffian (Jun 28, 2010)

^ I'm the opposite. I prefer not having to keep constant contact on my reins. I also enjoy neckreining and the relaxation of riding western.
That said, i ride both, though ive ridden western longer.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

I like riding english as it's a great workout for me & the horse. For showing, even though I do both, I like western, less work, horse likes it better too.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Neither.
I dislike the horn, so Western is out.
The traditional European style saddles (I think only the US calls them English...perhaps Canada too) don't have enough surface area to displace as much weight.

I like the Trooper styles and then certain types of the Plantation styles (neither of which are "English" or Western style saddles) Larger displacement area and more comfortable than the "English" style. Better suited to activities that the Western style does not lend itself to.

Sort of the best of both worlds. Better weight displacement than the "English" (and the Plantations are more comfortable too) and allows for ease of more activities (e.g. jumping) than Western.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

You got a pic of the saddle you use its lbs not miles?


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## Tianimalz (Jan 6, 2009)

There should be a "both" option on the poll


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## WesternBella (Jan 7, 2012)

You should pick one lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

Pure western. Tried English once and hated it. I know English will help with your balance, but so does riding green horses.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

usandpets said:


> Pure western. Tried English once and hated it. I know English will help with your balance, but so does riding green horses.


Green horses are usually unbalanced themselves, so I'm having trouble following..


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## WesternBella (Jan 7, 2012)

usandpets - same here  tried it once and I just hated it a lot.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

waresbear said:


> You got a pic of the saddle you use its lbs not miles?


A blurry picture of my mare with a Trooper I'd borrowed, but don't use anymore. Need a new one (hoses backs change as they keep growing).

All attach a photo of the Plantation style I like. This jparticular one is from Hillcrest, but the style is Buena Vista which is like.


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

Both, every day but I spend more time in my western saddles.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Troopers displace weight over the greater area, so they are my first choice. Best for the horse.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Tianimalz said:


> There should be a "both" option on the poll


they should have a neither option too


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## WesternBella (Jan 7, 2012)

Omg guys LOLOL just pick one
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Can't. I dont own or use either.


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

Skyseternalangel said:


> Green horses are usually unbalanced themselves, so I'm having trouble following..


 If both you and the horse are unbalanced, you're going to come off. If you can stay on, thru the crow hops, bucks, spooks, etc., your balance must be good. I know from when I started riding and having to deal with our spooky gelding Harley and starting Ghost, they have taught me how to stay on better, not just squeezing your legs for your life to stay on.:lol:


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## attackships (Jan 12, 2012)

I've always ridden in a western saddle, though my "style" of riding varies depending on the horse or what i want to work on. i mostly trail ride so a western saddle is most comfortable for steep trails


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## Tianimalz (Jan 6, 2009)

I ride western, love the feel, love the freedom, and personally I find it much more comfortable and useful for my trail-riding "hobby". Would I try English? Of course, I'd like to be a jack of all trades if I had the option, and I plan on looking into doing a little bit of English; just to say I can and so that Indie and I could both learn something new. 

Overall however, I'm western and pretty happy that way.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

usandpets said:


> If both you and the horse are unbalanced, you're going to come off. If you can stay on, thru the crow hops, bucks, spooks, etc., your balance must be good. I know from when I started riding and having to deal with our spooky gelding Harley and starting Ghost, they have taught me how to stay on better, not just squeezing your legs for your life to stay on.:lol:


Ahah I see your point now. I'm with ya.. I can stay on now before... not so much


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## Roperchick (Feb 1, 2010)

uuuum both??? i LOOOOOOOOOVE western but my moms horse is SOOOOOO GOOD at jumping and he can go soooo much faster in the glade with an aussie/or english saddle.....he hates western.....


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

If I could only own one style, I'd choose...Australian.

If it is English or western only, then I might choose English saddles for my horses because they have such short backs & tall withers. But I'd rather neck rein, so I guess that would make me western...:?


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

its lbs not miles said:


> All attach a photo of the Plantation style I like. This particular one is from Hillcrest, but the style is Buena Vista which is like.


Gorgeous tool work in that second Plantation style saddle... it's like a beautiful stylish endurance/Aussie looking saddle...


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## BarrelracingArabian (Mar 31, 2010)

I prefer western because well its basically all I've known and I like the different bridle/breast collar and saddle selections that english doesn't always offer. I have tried english and will ride once in awhile english however I would go bareback before I choose english :]


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## Showjumper1 (Dec 20, 2011)

English all the way. I love the look of the horses used for english, ie. TBs and WBs. I love the beautiful smooth saddles and tack, the elegant attire, the difficulty and dicipline you have to hold yourself to, the workout you get while riding english, etc. I love it all . It is nice to be able to relax your back in a western saddle, but Im still an english rider no matter what.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

I find it hard to understand the concept that riding in english tack = tension.

If you are not relaxed while riding, no matter the tack, you're doing it wrong.

If I spend an hour schooling my horse on flatwork, my legs will be a little stiff the next day. Duh. I use leg cues for 99% of my communication with the horse and I am asking a lot of her when we try to be as perfect as we can on corners, circles, shoulder ins, leg yields, and transitions. Plus I'n 45 so not quite as flexible as I used to be. My back never hurts when I'm done riding (unless I've fallen off :lol. 

Same thing when schooling over jumps. But even though both are hard work, I am not tense. Or if I find myself tensing up then I know I'm doing it wrong, take a few seconds to relax, and get back to work. Besides, for the sake of both of us, every ten to fifteen minutes we take a walking break on a long rein. And we just RELAX......

When I go trail riding even though probably 1/2 of it is at a trot and canter, I am completely relaxed while paying attention to the horse (she does get a little excited out on the trails). I post with her motion so it's very easy and takes hardly any effort and at the canter I just swing with her back like you're supposed to no matter what kind of saddle you sit on. At the walk I use as little contact as possible, and sometimes none at all, depending on the trail conditions. At a trot and canter I will take up more connection because Calypso needs more half halts to keep from getting distracted. Besides, horses trained for english disciplines want to be connected and want to feel your hand through the reins.

We don't have any extremely steep trails, but we do have some steep sections and I don't really see the need for a huge cantle and pommel or polleys or knee blocks to help me stay balanced. Weight on seat bones and feet is enough. I always have the option to get up on a two point seat to help her out during climbs or canters on uneven terrain. 

Neither of the saddles I use has big thigh blocks or polleys. They both have the slightest of knee blocks (more like cushions under your knees really). And when I ride in a dressage saddle my stirrups are as long as they can possibly be so my legs hang down as straight as possible while still having the ability to get in a half seat. My cross country saddle is set up with shorter stirrups and while I could lengthen them, Wintec leathers are a PITA to adjust from the saddle so I leave them short. If I need to stretch my legs on the trail when mounted on my XC saddle I just ride without stirrups for a while.

So having ridden in both kinds of tack, I can say that one can ride as relaxed on one kind as one can on the other depending on what one is doing.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

I’ve thought a little more about this concept of “freedom” as it relates to tack.

If freedom means to you a romantic notion of the old west, then rock on. That’s a personal thing and no one can say it’s right or wrong.

However, I am an engineer so I’m going to ignore that and look at this from a different angle.

Correctly designed English saddles have the lowest point of the seat slightly forward of the midpoint between pommel and cantle. Along with the stirrup bar (the stirrup leather’s attachment hook on the tree) placement, that design places you in the ideal alignment (shoulders, hips, and heels in a plumb line) for maximum stability and freedom of motion when you sit correctly on your seat bones. It is easier to adjust yourself so that you can ride with, ahead, or behind the motion of the horse depending on what the situation dictates.

Western saddles seem to be designed, for the most part, with the lowest point of the seat a lot closer to the cantle and slopes upwards to the pommel. That design almost always forces you into a chair seat where your heels are forward of the shoulder/hip plumb line and places you behind the motion of the horse. Obviously, this doesn’t stop people from adjusting their balance on the saddle, but the chair seat does not help.

The cantle and pommel of an English saddle are diminutive when compared to almost any western saddle. The most dramatic difference appears when you compare a relatively flat seat jumping saddle to any western one. I shouldn’t have to explain why that much less leather in front and behind you provides more freedom for the rider.

The stirrups on an English saddle are attached with narrow (~1”), flexible straps that allow the stirrups to move with virtually complete freedom forwards and backwards, outwards, and also in rotation. A few English saddles have dual stirrup bars, with one slightly forward of the other, providing another degree of freedom in stirrup placement. Western saddles, as we all know, have stirrups attached to a wide, relatively unyielding fender that provides very little to no fore and aft flexibility. Also, the stirrup hangs 90 degrees away from where it needs to be on most new western saddles and has to be twisted out for your foot to go in. 

More and more English saddles are now coming with adjustable gullets that make it fairly easy to get the horse fitted properly without having to sell the old saddle and buy a new one. Just from memory all or some Wintec, Bates, Collegiate, Pessoa, and Henri de Rivel saddles come with this feature. There are others (Tekna and Prestige) where the whole tree can be adjusted in width, although it is not a DIY feature like the changeable gullets. In addition, any English saddle with wool-stuffed panels can be adjusted within reason by a saddler to better fit the contours of your horse’s back. A properly fitted English saddle needs no saddle pad to protect the horse. The saddle pad is there to protect the saddle from sweat and maybe provide a little more friction for stability. As far as I know, western saddles need a pad to protect the horse and have zero adjustability. When you combine the English saddle’s ability to be custom fitted to the horse, plus the fact that there just is less saddle and less weight on the horse, it’s pretty clear which one allows the horse more freedom.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

When riding forward, the idea is that you work so your horse does not. There is definitely work being done by legs, thighs & back that is not done when riding western. If you are as relaxed and effort free riding a jump saddle as in a western saddle, you are riding wrong in the jump saddle. But because YOU work harder, your HORSE can work more freely and concentrate on maximum performance.

Granted, those who ride for years in a jump seat may come to FEEL easier about it than in a western, but you simply SHOULD be doing less work while riding western. It was intended for riding 12+ hour days...

Oh...and another pet peeve: "shoulders, hips, and heels in a plumb line" is good for SOME riding, but not all. If you work cattle, it probably isn't a great idea. There is a reason most stock saddles, western and Australian, encourage a chair seat. Chasing unpredictable animals in rough terrain far from any hospital on a horse you don't own led to a saddle design that worked for that purpose. That in turn suggests it is a good saddle for trail work...not superior, but equally good in a different way.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

usandpets said:


> If both you and the horse are unbalanced, you're going to come off.


Not necessarily. :wink: It depends a lot on horse's attitude and what one means by "unbalanced". 

I didn't vote, because poll doesn't have enough options.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

bsms said:


> Oh...and another pet peeve: "shoulders, hips, and heels in a plumb line" is good for SOME riding, but not all. If you work cattle, it probably isn't a great idea. There is a reason most stock saddles, western and Australian, encourage a chair seat. Chasing unpredictable animals in rough terrain far from any hospital on a horse you don't own led to a saddle design that worked for that purpose. That in turn suggests it is a good saddle for trail work...not superior, but equally good in a different way.


I somewhat disagree. Say here 



 or 



 You can see most of the time the rider is quite aligned. The heel/leg goes more forward on sharp stop, but alignment is there on gaits. When I took reining lessons and rode in cutting horses barn people there didn't really had a "chair seat" all the time. 

BTW it's much easier to sit a buck aligned/balanced/heels down in my experience. :wink:


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

I like western











But, I LOVE english!


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

bsms said:


> When riding forward, the idea is that you work so your horse does not. There is definitely work being done by legs, thighs & back that is not done when riding western. If you are as relaxed and effort free riding a jump saddle as in a western saddle, you are riding wrong in the jump saddle. But because YOU work harder, your HORSE can work more freely and concentrate on maximum performance.


I can't disagree more with this. Muscular work = tension. Tension = incorrect riding. If you are holding on with your thighs, legs, and/or back, then that is not correct riding.

At a walk I can almost fall asleep and not fall off the horse.

At a rising trot I just let her motion move me up and down. Hardly any effort. At a sitting trot, complete relaxation is required or you know what happens: bounce all over the place.

At a canter, again relaxation is required or you start bouncing and the cantle starts slapping you from behind as you get out of synch with the gait.

In all cases tension in the hips, thighs, or calves against the horse will block the rider's leg weight from flowing down to the stirrups with predictably bad results. And that is true no matter what kind of saddle is being used.

Only when assuming a two point seat do I see some muscular effort start to come into play.

Sometimes I get tense (who doesn't) but I know what tension does to my riding and I can regonize it and fix it. It is not intentional tension or muscular effort.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

Riding forward does not take much physical effort. It's just a slight roll fwd on your seatbones.

And jumping, the way I am being taught, does not mean throwing oneself on top of the horse's neck. It means folding slightly at the waist and letting your knees and ankles flex to absorb the shock. 

But my trainer is a former eventer, where jumps are approached for the most part from a balanced, deep seat and the rider folds while centered on the horse.


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## Tianimalz (Jan 6, 2009)

mildot said:


> I’ve thought a little more about this concept of “freedom” as it relates to tack.
> 
> If freedom means to you a romantic notion of the old west, then rock on. That’s a personal thing and no one can say it’s right or wrong.
> 
> ...


I think you may be reading a little too much into this :lol: What I personally mean by "freedom" is that I have many more uses for my western tack, I personally feel more ability to move around, or if I were to feel super bored that day- attempt trick riding :lol: I ride just fine, thank you- even though I ride with my upper leg strength in a lot of situations to make up for my balance...(because let me face it, my balance will never be as good as my strength :rofl: ) I personally don't see how you can get around that unless you are heaving in the stirrups. However I could be wrong (never had a trainer), but my seat is good and my horse doesn't have a sore back so I'm not worried 

PERSONALLY; I couldn't find much use for English riding outside of ring work or shows (not saying anything bad about it, I have as much respect for any good rider as the other no matter the discipline), but that's just because the couple times I did try it I found it uncomfortable. I'd still love to try English again as I've stated, but I find western has a little more freedom to kick back in your seat on a good horse and just point and aw at the pwetty trees on the trail :lol:


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

bsms said:


> Granted, those who ride for years in a jump seat may come to FEEL easier about it than in a western, but you simply SHOULD be doing less work while riding western. It was intended for riding 12+ hour days...
> 
> Oh...and another pet peeve: "shoulders, hips, and heels in a plumb line" is good for SOME riding, but not all. If you work cattle, it probably isn't a great idea. There is a reason most stock saddles, western and Australian, encourage a chair seat. Chasing unpredictable animals in rough terrain far from any hospital on a horse you don't own led to a saddle design that worked for that purpose. That in turn suggests it is a good saddle for trail work...not superior, but equally good in a different way.


My Dressage intructer (if she's still alive), who also taught jumping (a great lady and wonderful equestrian) would cry over what working cattle did to all her work with me (and I'll never go back to Dressage :lol, but you're right about the difference when you spend most of the day (often for multiple days) in the saddle vs a few hours. It's not a parade, it's work and the saddle needs meet those needs for both horse and rider. If someone thinks they are going to work cattle sitting like they were doing Dressage I'd love to watch that :lol: (I think I could win the AFV money with a video of that).


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## Ink (Sep 25, 2009)

I also think there should be a _both_ option. I'm constantly swapping saddles, but I suppose if I was forced to pick just one it would have to western, mostly because my little cow-bred mare is better suited to it. Even when I've got her in a nice extended jog it's darn near impossible to post on her, she's so smooth. That, and my hunt seat saddle doesn't fit her. 

But I don't see why it has to be one or the other. I've flip flopped back and forth between the two my entire riding career, and I think it's made me a better rider.


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## WesternBella (Jan 7, 2012)

IMO, this is a lot nicer looking:








than this:









And this:








looks alot more fun than this:









But that's just my opinion. And I'm not judging a book by it's cover, I've tried English before and I find it boring. But like I said, that's just my opinion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cintillate (Jan 8, 2012)

Western because I don't have much of a choice since I'd say most of the tack and riders here are western.  But would like to try english


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

For me the ideal saddle would be something that isn't made. A Trooper with a Buena Vista Plantation style seat. Trooper for the horse (great weight displacement, the seat suspended off the back and good air flow) and the comfort of the plantation seat for me (deep seat, nice cantle and a nice rise to the pommel but not the high bulky western style pommel). Luckily both can come short, since my mare is short backed and barely manages 24" and I doubt my filly will be any longer.
But until someone marries the two  I'll take the Trooper for my long distance riding. It's still comfortable for me and great for the horse.
Troopers are also easier to make repairs on because of their design. Probably an important feature since the Trooper style was the saddle used by most of the Western militaries (except the US) for over 100 years and still in use.


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## ConfusciusWasAGreatTeachr (Oct 29, 2011)

I ride 'Wenglish' 

I was taught english growing up as a young child, now I have a personal belief that the horse should have/would prefer no pressure on his mouth/nose/face until you ask him to do something. I use a rope halter and a treeless english type style of saddle. Loose reins too


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

If you are riding forward and your legs and back are not doing work, you are doing it wrong. Muscular effort does NOT equal squeezing - although a forward seat does (according to what I've read) allow some grip from the legs. But the act of leaning forward will require more tension in your lower back than a vertical back supported by the spine does. We are designed to carry weight with our backs in a vertical position. That is why your mom told you to lift from your knees, not with your back. Riding forward, by definition, means your back is not vertical. How much lean depends on what your horse is doing, and what you want him to do next, but forward is not vertical - and a forward lean requires more work from the back. Weight in the stirrups requires your legs to do more than weight off the stirrups. Weight off the horse's back means more effort than sitting with your weight supported by the horse's back.

None of that is wrong. Jump, dressage, western, Australian - they are all right for some purposes and wrong for others. That is why when someone asks, "Is X right?", I often respond, "What are you trying to do?"

Chair seat: I don't define a chair seat as having legs full forward. I define it as having your heels forward of your hip. This is me in a chair seat:










My heels are roughly aligned with my belt buckle. And yes, my belt buckle has moved forward over the years! That is a fairly typical chair seat. There is a style of western riding that had the feet much more forward, but it also involved bracing against the cantle and stirrups in a saddle designed for it:










That is from one of my favorite web sites for cowboy history - Erwin E. Smith Collection Guide | Collection Guide

I don't have a saddle designed for riding like that, and many modern horses would be too wide for it to work well, I think.

If your riding involves a lot of unpredictable things (chasing cows, polo, or a horse that spooks a lot) and bursts of speed followed by sudden unanticipated stops, then having your feet forward some is an advantage. If you are riding a collected horse, it is harmful - although how harmful will depend on how far forward. Your shape, your flexibility and your horse's shape also affect how your legs can best drape down. Starting riding at 50, having my heels under my hip wasn't practical. As I gain flexibility, I have more options.

Here is a picture I found on the Internet some time ago of an Australian in a campdrafting competition:










It is an interesting combination of forward riding and a chair seat for working cattle. I tried it last week...it felt pretty good, although the western riding instructors I've had would both faint, and I suspect a lot of jump riders would also find it...unusual. My gelding, however, was content going farther and faster than he is when I sit in a more traditional western style. It was also easy to switch to a vertical position in sharp turns.

As for the poll question...it comes down to what you want to do. You can jump in a western saddle or barrel race in an English one, but your preference will affect which tack you ought to use, and what style of riding makes sense for you & your horse. IMHO. 

So I haven't voted, since I like trying lots of different things, and sometimes switch saddle styles part way thru the ride. Oh...and I claim to ride "Wesausglish"! (Thanks, DuffyDuck) It sounds positively German...


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

I've paid to go on a hack for three hours on a western horse.. comfiest gallop ever (and a slightly high strung, late gelded 'special' horse) if he'd have been in English tack, i would have been petrified! As it was, I looked in the mirror when I got home, had a dusty face, and two streaks either side of my eyes where we'd gone so fast my eyes had watered 

HOWEVER, I love my English riding, I haven't had much to complain about, but not much to compare either. So for now I like English ;D


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## jumanji321 (Dec 1, 2010)

Every ride I use both. Although I need to start my mare back on barrels soon. I usually ride her english and my uncle's horse western because he will be a roper eventually.


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## jumanji321 (Dec 1, 2010)

WesternBella said:


> IMO, this is a lot nicer looking:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I think both of those saddles look nice, although I've seen much prettier in both styles. If the horse can do high level dressage moves then it isn't boring at all, but it takes precise cues to get them to do it. I do more jumping but I do alot of dressage in between because it makes my horse a better jumper.


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## WesternBella (Jan 7, 2012)

IMO, dressage is very boring. I'd much rather watch roping or barrels.

As for actually doing it, I have tried dressage and pretty much hated it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

WesternBella said:


> IMO, dressage is very boring. I'd much rather watch roping or barrels.
> 
> As for actually doing it, I have tried dressage and pretty much hated it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
No way! I love it! I'm only just really getting in to it... I just love feeling the way the horse moves.

I think I'd be too scardey to do barrels, and or roping!


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## WesternBella (Jan 7, 2012)

Yeah, it's personal preference. I'm just not an English kind of girl 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

WesternBella said:


> IMO, dressage is very boring. I'd much rather watch roping or barrels.
> 
> As for actually doing it, I have tried dressage and pretty much hated it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Dressage is boring to watch if you do not know what you are looking for. On top of that, dressage is very difficult to perform well. Dressage, as a sport, is a doer's world not a watcher's world.

Fortunately for us english riders, there is a lot more to it than dressage. As far as spectator sports go, watching jumping (arena or cross country) at its highest levels is far from boring even if you don't know squat about it.

As far as I am concerned, this









and this










and this









is a lot more fun that this


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## Tianimalz (Jan 6, 2009)

Why don't we just agree that both disciplines have their down and up points? No need to be nit picking, just do what YOU and YOUR horse wants to do, and be happy


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

Tianimalz said:


> Why don't we just agree that both disciplines have their down and up points? No need to be nit picking, just do what YOU and YOUR horse wants to do, and be happy


I don't see any nitpicking. I see a good discussion.


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## Tianimalz (Jan 6, 2009)

mildot said:


> I don't see any nitpicking. I see a good discussion.


Posting pictures and really saying "WELL I WOULD RATHER DO THIS" is really opening the doors for an argument, specially when taking a picture someone else posted and then going against it. I'm just saying; there are the boring training parts of every discipline, I for one find the lower levels of dressage VERY boring, but then I also find Western Pleasure to be yawn-worthy as well. But everyone starts somewhere.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

bsms said:


> If your riding involves a lot of unpredictable things (chasing cows, polo, or a horse that spooks a lot) and bursts of speed followed by sudden unanticipated stops, then having your feet forward some is an advantage


I don't disagree. And I can see where western saddle designs, with their stirrup fenders that have no fore/aft flexibility, would have to compromise with a bias towards feet slightly more fwd.

English saddles, obviously, let your legs be free to pivot front to back as you need them since the stirrups hang free from a flexible loop of strap.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

Tianimalz said:


> Posting pictures and really saying "WELL I WOULD RATHER DO THIS" is really opening the doors for an argument, specially when taking a picture someone else posted and then going against it.


Why are you then directing that comment at me? You should direct it to the originator of this thread since she's the one who began posting comparison pictures of what she found to be fun and what she found to be boring.

She compared a fast-paced western event with a non-spectator friendly english event to make her point.

I countered with a more even comparison (fox hunting and eventing vs barrel racing) instead of showing fast paced english sports vs western pleasure.

This IS a discussion forum. Right?


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## WesternBella (Jan 7, 2012)

I respect everyone's opinions. Showing pictures and comparing things are a way to get your point across. I respect your opinion on liking English and you should repsect mine of loving Western. We love them for different reasons but I think we can totally agree on our love for horses. But I have to share different types of Western Riding because I found some great pictures  I admit, jumping is actually pretty fun to watch but even so, I like Western better  I was not trying to start an arugment, just wanted to share my opinion & explain why.

*Barrel Racing*- I love it so much because it's so exciting to watch and ofcourse, do. It's so fast paced and adrenaline pumping 








*Western Pleasure*- This is another type of Western riding that I do 








*Trail Riding/Classes*- I have never done a trail class but I love trail riding 








*Team Penning*- I have never done it but I have watched it & loved it! 








*Reining* - I have never tried Reining or even watched it, only in videos. But I hope to try it someday.








*Roping* - I have never tried it but have learned that it takes much skill.


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## WesternBella (Jan 7, 2012)

No matter what we do, I believe we can also agree that the horses are always so beautiful!


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

WesternBella said:


> As for actually doing it, *I have tried dressage *and pretty much hated it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


For how long? :wink: ANY discipline is somewhat boring in beginning when the horse doesn't know any better and the rider (sometime) doesn't know any better. And even after both are trained. Barrels, roping, cutting, reining require LOTS of boring flat work. You have to lope the cutting horse for 40 mins and more in same circle, right, left, right, left, right, left, just to have 15 mins cutting ride. Same with reining: lots of loping in circles.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

WesternBella said:


> Omg guys LOLOL just pick one
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry....can't, because I ride both.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

WesternBella said:


> you should repsect mine of loving Western.


I absolutely do



WesternBella said:


> We love them for different reasons but I think we can totally agree on our love for horses.


Yep


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## WesternBella (Jan 7, 2012)

I wanted to share with you this picture I made:








Both styles of riding are absolutely beautiful in their own way<3


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## mystykat (Dec 4, 2011)

I ride Western... that's not to say I wouldn't LOVE to ride English. I have tried it but haven't had the time to pursue lessons further. 
I think it's absolutely amazing to watch dressage, to imagine the work the rider and horse are putting in and making it look effortless, the huge movement out of a barely noticeable cue. And I also think it's amazing to watch a horse get down and quick as a cat work a cow or slide into stop.

Why pick either/or? They're both incredible.


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

Can't vote, should have a "both" option!
I just love being on the back of a horse! Both have their benefits!
I go either way, have yet to try an Aussie saddle, it's on my wish list!

Now if this were a Driving vs Riding, I'd have an opinion. But I watched the Achen trials the other day and, MAN it was cool! I'd still want to be on one of those beauties rather than behind them!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

kitten_Val said:


> For how long? :wink: ANY discipline is somewhat boring in beginning when the horse doesn't know any better and the rider (sometime) doesn't know any better...


I cannot see how anyone ever plays golf. The idea of trying to hit a golf ball 200 yards and put it into a hole the size of a tea cup seems insane. If I watch golf, for the brief time before it puts me to sleep, I see guys focusing intently and then doing something where a 1 deg error means the ball will go crazy. *I* would go crazy trying it.

Dressage, as an outsider, strikes me as the golf of the equine world. It seems like a sport that rewards someone who focuses on minute details, and who demands perfection from themselves in every detail. Although I would much rather watch a dressage video, the sport itself would drive me insane. If I finished a ride, and a judge told me I scored a 71.2 instead of a 71.5 (or in my case, a 13.4 instead of a 13.6)...I'd shoot the judge. Screw the Gold Helmets - I'd carry my 44 and pity the judge who gave me a low score.

I'm a jogger. One who listens to tunes. The tiny mp3 player is one of the greatest inventions in history. When I jog, I don't worry about my form. I don't worry about where I put my feet, other than to keep a look-out for rattlesnakes. I want to go, cover distance, and the only judges I care about measure distance and time. At the end of the run, I want to be exhausted. I want to sit on the floor while my Australian Shepherd licks the sweat off my face, and feel too tired to get up and move.










:shock: :shock: :shock: 

As a rider, I'm a jogger. If I was a good rider with trained horses, I'd do endurance rides - against myself. As it is, neither my horses nor their rider is ready to try that on the desert trails near me. We're still working on it.

Although it sounds a bit strange, I think this sort of personality difference is what drives some to prefer dressage to jumping to trail riding. Our riding reflects our personality. That means none of the answers is wrong unless it is the wrong answer for who you are!


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## loveduffy (Dec 22, 2011)

I ride western just trail riding for me I can sit back and enjoy the ride


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

I LOVE the feeling of having a horse 100% collected underneath me/close contact, I can really feel the power and having one dance instead of plod is nice sometimes. Not that you can't do that western, but there is a difference between being in an english saddle on an arabian stud going through his paces than wandering down a trail on a easy going quarter horse. I love both! Both breeds can do both, just giving examples!


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Folks, don't get upset when someone is posting pics of what they like better. It is not being done as a slam, but in good fun. There is nothing to get upset about. I am loving all the photo comparisons!

I love dressage, but will admit that watching lower level dressage is similar to watching cement setting up......


BUT, having barrel raced as a kid, 
i find all barrel courses the same...the same...the same.

Yes, I undrestand the challenge of cutting one second off, but....

I personally love that every jump course, whether XC, show or hunter, is different. It presents different challenges and demands.

Does that make it better than barrel racing? Of course not!! It's just whatever blows your hair back. Adrenaline blows mine back!!


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Started with Dressage and found it boring from the day we moved to Hunt seat. Did that until I started with cattle and while the Western saddle was needed for the work, it was the Western style of riding that won me.
The Trooper and Plantation make it work for me. Nothing has beat them out for comfort and I can do pretty much anything I want on them. I can enjoy the comfort or Western riding without the horn or massive pommel, jump, race and ride for 10+ hours a day every day as if I was working cattle.
Can still enjoy the thrill of speed like when you take off after some yearlings (although I wouldn't actually work cattle with them as giving up the high pommel can make sudden sharp turns a challange and I know I'd eventually come off )


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

I don't think I have a style. Most of my riding in between competitions is trail riding in my stock saddle. Mostly bitless. I do stock work with my dad in my stock saddle and snaffle bridle. I compete primarily in campdrafting and working stockhorse classes. When I have a free weekend I might go jumping, gameing, or to an ODE. I own my stock saddle, two A/P saddles, and a jump saddle. I've ridden to elementary dressage, jumped to A Grade, and won gameing championships in the past. 

I guess I'm with you BSMS, Wesausglish! BTW, I agree with you re. Seat styles. I was at a clinic with a very successful campdraft trainer a while ago and we were discussing the forward seat, and he also reccomended the book 'the forward seat of riding' that I've seen you mention. He went to Ireland and was taken Hunting on a huge cob type, and told us great stories of how the Irish guys tried to show him up with higher and higher and more difficult jumps, but he just held his forward seat and kept going 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Country Woman (Dec 14, 2011)

I have done both but prefer Western


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Some photos of me throughout my years of riding.

Showing:










Dressage:



















Jumping:


















(I have bought this photo).

Eventing:










Mounted games:










ASH shows:



















Out back at a campdraft (Normally in a snaffle):










Cutting clinic:










I don't love western, or english, or Australian. I just love RIDING! At the moment I happen to be enjoying cow work - I may go back to jumping in the future, or dressage, I've done my sting of gameing... It's all on a horse, so I love it all.


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## pintophile (May 18, 2011)

Western

1) *The horses*
I like the look of this (*naturally low head carriage*, deep girth, big butt, round body shape etc)








more than this (taller, leaner, narrower, higher head carriage)








Can a quarter horse be rode English? A Thoroughbred western? Of course! Just a generality, that's all. And (though DEFINITELY not always true), I love how much more 'chill' western breeds naturally are than the hot-bloods bred for performance and speed.

2) *The tack*
This one, I'm divided about. I love the lightness of the English saddle, how small and maneuverable it is, but at the same time, I just feel more comfortable and secure in a western. I do love the look of a western saddle, though. I personally prefer the look of this








to this








No real reason, I just love the history of the western saddle and the western horse. 

The bridle and reins especially are a big factor in my preference for western. I absolutely despise having any contact on a horse's mouth whatsoever. I love being able to control the horse off entirely leg, seat, and sometimes a rein laid on the neck. I don't ride English much, so I really don't _know_, but you always hear English riders say they feel so much more in tune with the horse. I feel in tune with my horse when I know I can ride without a strip of tack on them, when I know I can control this massive animal with my leg and body position and not much else. Obviously, relying entirely on reins isn't correct for English, either, but the fact that you even have to hold contact is a turn-off for me. I don't know exactly why. I just love the look of this








over this









3) *The 'mentality'*
Western, to me, is just so much more relaxed. You get on and go ride. You need to be well-balanced and sit properly so you're not slamming on your horse's back or flopping around like a rag doll, but besides that, what I've been taught is you don't move unless you need to ask the horse to do something. Every single little twitch and movement means something. 
I don't know, exactly. Western just seems quieter and more relaxed...which is the way I like it.

The Western disciplines I love:

































I like English, when I'm in an English-y mood. I like jumping on occasion, and I like hunting. But, as you can see, Western is by far my preference.

 Essay finished!


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

mildot said:


> If you are not relaxed while riding, no matter the tack, you're doing it wrong.
> 
> When I go trail riding even though probably 1/2 of it is at a trot and canter, I am completely relaxed while paying attention to the horse (she does get a little excited out on the trails). I post with her motion so it's very easy and takes hardly any effort and at the canter I just swing with her back like you're supposed to no matter what kind of saddle you sit on.
> 
> I can say that one can ride as relaxed on one kind as one can on the other depending on what one is doing.


I fully agree. 

I think more people feel secure in a Western saddle because it is bigger, more leather, more padding. I know when my horse had his big issues.. I didn't have a good enough seat to keep my butt on through his bucks, spooks, rears, bolts.. I was in a western saddle and then an Aussie (which DOES encourage a chair seat position.)

I have to say... any canter has to involve some kind of forward hip effort.. regardless of discipline. Maybe over time it gets softer or move defined or the horse just wants to go forward (like on a trail or big field) then you'd have have to have a following seat. 

I'm not a fan of contact either, but my horse seems very happy though one day I do want to dip him into some Western disciplines to see how he'd like it. Of course he'd probably be the biggest thing around :lol:

I voted English, but I adore both. I don't find either boring in any way.. I'm a HUGE fan of trail riding (in my VERY comfy Dressage Saddle) and I give him a nice slack rein and he behaves.. he doesn't take advantage of it.. and when we pick up a faster gait, he doesn't run away with the slack of rein and I have no reason to put him on the bit. We aren't riding English or Western.. we're just spending time together and doing what we both love.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

I see an undertone of misunderstanding regarding contact with the bit when riding english-style.

1. The reins are NOT used to control where the horse goes. Properly used, english reins do nothing more than transmit very subtle messages to the horse to get his attention or to supplement leg cues, particularly during lateral movements.

2. In order to turn a horse, I was taught to do the following. 

2a. Half halt to cue the horse something is about to happen

2b. Turn shoulders in direction of turn and hips in the opposite direction. This is the MAIN direction control over the horse. By using your body that way your shoulders control where his shoulders go, your hips control where his quarters go.

2c. Inside leg pushes in at the girth. Outside leg passive just behind the girth to support the hind quarters.

2d. Outside rein supports the shoulder and receives the impulsion created by the inside leg.

If hands move at all, it is to support a shoulder than wants to fall in or out WITHOUT increasing the weight of the reins on the bit. Rein cues are applied mostly by squeezing and releasing the rein in your fist. Not by pulling, unless it's a dire emergency.

It takes an educated hand to do this right.



> Western, to me, is just so much more relaxed. You get on and go ride.  You need to be well-balanced and sit properly so you're not slamming on your horse's back or flopping around like a rag doll, but besides that, what I've been taught is you don't move unless you need to ask the horse to do something. Every single little twitch and movement means something.
> 
> Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding/western-english-109991/page8/#ixzz1jwfSJChN
> ​


And that is exactly how one rides on english tack: quiet and balanced, every movement needs to have a purpose. And when i ride (with english tack) I do just that, get on and ride. Not sure what else is there to do?


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

mildot said:


> I see an undertone of misunderstanding regarding contact with the bit when riding english-style.
> 
> 1. The reins are NOT used to control where the horse goes. Properly used, english reins do nothing more than transmit very subtle messages to the horse to get his attention or to supplement leg cues, particularly during lateral movements.
> 
> ...


I only _move_ my hands to support my horse's shoulders.. my friend asks me how to turn him when she rides xP it's very fun to watch. He moves off of weight of my seatbones and leg cues. Yeah you could pull on the left right and his head might go over there.. but that's not how to turn him. He'd probably bite your foot, lol. 

We are just past green, still working on training level but he's a very responsive horse. I'm sure that anyone could jump on him and do well, even if they've ridden western all their lives. And they'd be just as comfortable.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Skyseternalangel said:


> I think more people feel secure in a Western saddle because it is bigger, more leather, more padding.


It's interesting, because I do feel more secure in my dressage saddle then I did in my western. I started my horses in western saddle (with the intention to just trail ride), switched to english and both liked english saddle more.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

bsms said:


> Dressage, as an outsider, strikes me as the golf of the equine world.


I tried golf couple times (corporative thing) and didn't like it: THAT was indeed boring! :lol: 

As for flat work (I wouldn't call it "dressage" really)... I don't know... I have SO MANY elements I can think about and do while riding my mares (and my lesson time just fly by). On other hand when I went to the cutting barn all we did was slow lope, lope, lope, and again lope. And then some cutting in the end (and not every time of course). Talk about boring! So I quit.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

kitten_Val said:


> It's interesting, because I do feel more secure in my dressage saddle then I did in my western. I started my horses in western saddle (with the intention to just trail ride), switched to english and both liked english saddle more.


Yes same here.. I couldn't wait to get out of the Aussie. I love my dressage saddle  But after all the bolting and the rearing and whatnot, those aussie flaps saved me, I got all this confidence and got back into my dressage saddle and I've felt good ever since.



> I tried golf couple times (corporative thing) and didn't like it: THAT was indeed boring! :lol:


Mini golf allll the way!!!


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

Skyseternalangel said:


> my friend asks me how to turn him when she rides xP it's very fun to watch. He moves off of weight of my seatbones and leg cues.


I can ride Calypso through five or six serpentines along a 20x40 arena at the walk with a loose rein (virtually no contact) with nothing more than seat and leg cues and just a slight wiggle of the inside rein to serve as the "hey we're turning" half halt.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

mildot said:


> I can ride Calypso through five or six serpentines along a 20x40 arena at the walk with a loose rein (virtually no contact) with nothing more than seat and leg cues and just a slight wiggle of the inside rein to serve as the "hey we're turning" half halt.


 that's awesome. 

Yeah I rode without hands a few days ago.. my horse felt so confused. He associated contact with leg cues so without the contact from my reins, he thought I meant faster and so it was quite a challenge to get him going where I wanted at first. But by the end of it, we were solid at the walk  I'm going to keep at it, so he gets better and I get better. I had to use a slight stop of my seat as my half halt.. boy he was so confused at first. Hard to half halt when half of the cue to half halt is in the hand


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

Just another tidbit for those who think that reins in english riding are held tightly and used to turn the horse.

One of the movements on the USEF dressage training level 1 test is a rising trot 20 meter circle on the right diagonal on a loose rein.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

mildot said:


> ...2. In order to turn a horse, I was taught to do the following...


Hmmm...for western, I was taught:

1 - Seat: Look where you want to go.
2 - Leg: Nudge with the outside leg. If in doubt, nudge a bit forward.
3 - Reins: If needed, either invite by moving the inside rein away from the shoulder (snaffle, 2 hands) or neck rein: just move the hand holding the reins a little over in the direction of the turn.

If the horse isn't balanced, then you might need to teach him by pulling his nose inside the circle an appropriate amount (twisting motion of the hand), and support with the inside leg. Once the horse learns how to balance well, you can stop that and go back to step 3, IF NEEDED. If the horse is trained well, the first 2 steps will do most of it.

One thing that drew me to western riding was that there was no, "Twist your seat bone two directions at once". Just look where you want to go...your horse should figure it out from there. Nudge some, neck rein as needed.

Others may have been taught different.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

I'm very detail oriented, and so that is how I give descriptions.

In practice, I don't go through that checklist. I simply turn my shoulders in the direction where I want to go and the turn happens.

The reins come into play to balance the shoulders if needed.

The legs are applied with more or less emphasis depending on the speed. At the canter and the gallop a slight turn of the shoulders (and maybe a slight shift in weight to the inside seatbone at the canter) does it all. At the walk and the trot the legs have more or less to do depending on how forward and on the bit the horse is.


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## pintophile (May 18, 2011)

mildot said:


> I see an undertone of misunderstanding regarding contact with the bit when riding english-style.
> 
> 1. The reins are NOT used to control where the horse goes. Properly used, english reins do nothing more than transmit very subtle messages to the horse to get his attention or to supplement leg cues, particularly during lateral movements.


I did at least know this :lol: Unfortunately, I see a lot of people riding English and _not_ using the reins correctly - keeping physical pressure on the bit all the time. 

And even though the reins in English are NOT for controlling, still, the fact that you have any contact at all (whether you're pulling or just holding them there) is what I personally can't stand.



> 2. In order to turn a horse, I was taught to do the following.
> 
> 2a. Half halt to cue the horse something is about to happen
> 
> ...


I'm the same as bsms - I turn my hips, use leg as needed, and the horse goes where I go.



> If hands move at all, it is to support a shoulder than wants to fall in or out WITHOUT increasing the weight of the reins on the bit. Rein cues are applied mostly by squeezing and releasing the rein in your fist. Not by pulling, unless it's a dire emergency.
> 
> It takes an educated hand to do this right.
> 
> And that is exactly how one rides on english tack: quiet and balanced, every movement needs to have a purpose. And when i ride (with english tack) I do just that, get on and ride. Not sure what else is there to do?


I like the self-carriage western horses are expected to have. I don't know that much about English, but from everything I've heard (and from what you're saying), the rider needs to do equally as much as the horse to maintain the horse's 'frame'. Western horses are expected to carry and collect and rate themselves with minimal cues from the rider because when the rider's chasing a cow or doing whatever, he needs a horse to be able to 'take care of' itself while he's busy.

Just different styles of riding, I guess 



Skyseternalangel said:


> that's awesome.
> 
> Yeah I rode without hands a few days ago.. my horse felt so confused. He associated contact with leg cues so without the contact from my reins, he thought I meant faster and so it was quite a challenge to get him going where I wanted at first. But by the end of it, we were solid at the walk  I'm going to keep at it, so he gets better and I get better. I had to use a slight stop of my seat as my half halt.. boy he was so confused at first. Hard to half halt when half of the cue to half halt is in the hand


This is why I like western and the draped rein with no contact. I know that if I (for some reason) didn't have a thing on the horse's head, that I am still in control. 

Bridleless riding is just a big thing for me. It's the epitome of good training and good riding (in my humble opinion), and what I strive for with all my horses. And I've always figured that, if a horse needs constant contact maintained with its mouth, it won't make the transition to bridleless as easy as a horse who neck reins and goes off leg and seat without contact in the first place.

To each their own, I guess. I just want to make a disclaimer: I am not trying to 'diss' English riding, because way too often these turn into a 'No I'M better! No I'M better!' fight. I think each style has its own aspects that are great. I just personally prefer western.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

pintophile said:


> Bridleless riding is just a big thing for me. It's the epitome of good training and good riding (in my humble opinion), and what I strive for with all my horses.


I agree


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

pintophile said:


> I like the self-carriage western horses are expected to have.


It's the same. A horse that needs constant rider input to maintain pace is not in self carriage, and that is not desired in any english discipline either.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

mildot said:


> It's the same. A horse that needs constant rider input to maintain pace is not in self carriage, and that is not desired in any english discipline either.


Mine's still learning so that's not the case for us.


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## SpottedDraftRider (Jun 26, 2011)

I grew up watching my mom ride english, and she started teaching me to ride english ever since I was little. English was the discipline I grew up with, and feels like home to me. I have ridden western on trail rides that were hours long, but at the end of the day I am still reaching for my english saddle.


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## lauraetco (Sep 14, 2011)

oops...double post


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## lauraetco (Sep 14, 2011)

I voted western. I feel more connected with my horse in a western saddle. In an english saddle, I feel like I'm just sitting on top of the horse (as oppose to "with" the horse). I also like the whole cowboy/girl thing. To me, western seems more natural and fun.


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## lauraetco (Sep 14, 2011)

I want to add something...
Someone mentioned something about a western saddle being more chair-like. Other way around...lol. The first time I sat in an english saddle, I said out loud, "I feel like I'm sitting on a chair". Maybe I just wasn't used to the shorter stirrups


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

They can be made longer, even while you are sitting on the saddle.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

mildot said:


> They can be made longer, even while you are sitting on the saddle.


 

Can't you change stirrup length on a western saddle when you're sat in it?

Sorry lol, learning!


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> It's the same. A horse that needs constant rider input to maintain pace is not in self carriage, and that is not desired in any english discipline either.


It is *not* the same. If it were the same, dressage horses would be ridden on a drape. Contact is such a huge part of dressage, and most dressage riders would hate for their horse to go like a western horse, because they are taught to back off the contact, not seek it.


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## SRich (Sep 13, 2011)

DuffyDuck said:


> Can't you change stirrup length on a western saddle when you're sat in it?
> 
> Sorry lol, learning!


Yes you can change the stirrup length on a western saddle when you're sitting in it. My riding instructor helped me change the length of mine last week while I was sitting up there.


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## SRich (Sep 13, 2011)

I like riding Western for a lot of reasons, including: 

The overall appearance of Western tack.
The typical appearance of a Western horse.
The idea of one day being able to work with cattle.
The events such as reining, barrel racing, cutting interest me.
Feels more relaxed and laidback than English.

I like the idea of beginning English riding, because I would like to get into jumping as well. I think be able to ride both well makes you into a well rounded rider.


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## gigem88 (May 10, 2011)

I ride mostly in my western saddle and train using dressage principles! So, western dressage??! Will be adding more ride time in my English saddle this year.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

wild_spot said:


> It is *not* the same. If it were the same, dressage horses would be ridden on a drape. Contact is such a huge part of dressage, and most dressage riders would hate for their horse to go like a western horse, because they are taught to back off the contact, not seek it.


Let me repeat what I said:

A horse in self carriage is a horse that does not need constant input and support from the rider to carry itself. You can release all rein contact, stop using seat and leg cues for forward, and pace will remain the same.

It is a goal in every english discipline I know of. And I am not surprised it is a goal in western disciplines too.

If that were not so, then the most basic of US dressage tests would not require one to demostrate that one's horse can maintain impulsion and pace on a 20 meter trot circle on a loose rein.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

^^ Then why have I almost never seen someone riding English do so with a loose rein? In fact, apart from my family, I've NEVER seen it. If it is the goal of all English riding, then it isn't accomplished very often...


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

bsms said:


> ^^ Then why have I almost never seen someone riding English do so with a loose rein? In fact, apart from my family, I've NEVER seen it. If it is the goal of all English riding, then it isn't accomplished very often...


A) Contact in english does not mean TIGHT reins. It seems that way to those who don't ride it. I can't explain it to you any better on the internet. The next step is have an instructor show you.

B) Just because self carriage should not depend on contact does not mean the goal is not contact. Correct contact is used for several other things.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

lauraetco said:


> I want to add something...
> Someone mentioned something about a western saddle being more chair-like. Other way around...lol. *The first time I sat in an english saddle, I said out loud, "I feel like I'm sitting on a chair".* Maybe I just wasn't used to the shorter stirrups


I think it probably just didn't fit you. My jumping MT does have shorter stirrups (of course), but the leg sits under me, however I can keep the legs under in some of the lesson saddles but not others. In my A/P doesn't matter what I tried (longer stirrups, sitting deeper, anything) my legs always were thrown in front of me - it clearly didn't fit my legs/butt.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

bsms said:


> ^^ Then why have I almost never seen someone riding English do so with a loose rein? In fact, apart from my family, I've NEVER seen it. If it is the goal of all English riding, then it isn't accomplished very often...


bsms, I ALWAYS ride with the loose rein last 5 mins of my ride (when my horse cools down)! :lol:


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Apparently English riders have given up as well. :hide:

Also, in post 74 you wrote,_"2. In order to turn a horse, I was taught to do the following. 

2a. Half halt to cue the horse something is about to happen..."
_​That would be another difference that would move me to western. I cannot imagine telling a horse, in effect, "Horse Alert! Standby for further instruction!" I understood the use of warning orders by the military, but couldn't imagine doing it with a horse.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

kitten_Val said:


> bsms, I ALWAYS ride with the loose rein last 5 mins of my ride (when my horse cools down)! :lol:


But Val, I think you've tried EVERY form of riding possible! Maybe that is just a bad habit of yours you've picked up along the way...:lol:


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

bsms said:


> But Val, I think you've tried EVERY form of riding possible! Maybe that is just a bad habit of yours you've picked up along the way...:lol:


Bahahahahahaha... That's indeed true! Bad me!


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

bsms said:


> That would be another difference that would move me to western. I cannot imagine telling a horse, in effect, "Horse Alert! Standby for further instruction!"


Why would one not do that? It's an easy way to improve the response of your horse. Unless prompt response to cues is not that important......

I don't remember if you ever said that you had taken lessons in english equitation. But if you haven't, and want to really understand the differences, maybe you should.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

bsms said:


> Apparently English riders have given up as well. :hide:
> 
> Also, in post 74 you wrote,
> _"2. In order to turn a horse, I was taught to do the following. _
> ...


:lol:
If I'd had to give my horse a warning, hint, "preperatory command" that something was going to happen I'd have never gotten cows in or moved. I'd have been trying round up cows until either the cows or horse die from old age :lol:. 

All that's fine for show or formation riding, but I can't imagine any working horse operating that way.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

mildot said:


> Why would one not do that? It's an easy way to improve the response of your horse. Unless prompt response to cues is not that important......


Because it does NOT teach a prompt response. It teaches a warning order first.

I often use a triangle of cones. As I enter the triangle, I decide which cone we are going to go around. It may be left, right or ahead. If ahead, it may be to the left or right. Halfway around, I may extend the circle to an oval with 2 cones. Or not.

The only way to make it work right is for the horse to focus on me, and to be ready to switch to a left or right turn immediately. He cannot anticipate, because I don't know myself. 

If I took a stride for a half-halt first to warn him something is about to happen, I'd be one stride behind the power curve. When that happens - and it does regardless - our circles suck. That makes it easy for me to tell how well my horse is responding to me. It is either immediate, or ugly. I cannot pretend.

As it relates to this thread: One comment I hear a LOT from western riders about English riding can be summarized by, "Get out of his mouth!" Most western riders I know find it hard to imagine constantly wanting to do anything with the reins, or to need to constantly tell the horse what to do.

For training purposes, I'll work on getting my horse to tip his nose in and flex some and make a circle a circle. Once he learns how it improves his balance, I expect him to do all that on his own. At that point, my looking right and moving the reins slightly right should be enough to get a good, balanced turn to the right.

This approach is critical if you plan on being busy doing something else, or are working in rough country. You cannot chase cattle if you need to give your horse a preparatory command. You cannot do it if you need to tell him how to turn. The process of your thinking, "The cow is turning right. I need to turn right 20 deg. Horse, prepare to turn right. Horse, execute a right turn. Horse, prepare to end turn. Horse, roll out heading 098..." is too long. The cow has already zigged back to the left. And yes, I spent a lot of time flying and saying things like "Roll out heading 098..."

Neither approach is right or wrong. I don't want to do dressage, but I respect those who do it well. It is a difference that affects which style a person feels most comfortable with. I like English saddles and neck reining...:shock:


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

Half halts are used for several reasons.

Their main use is to rebalance the horse by helping him to shift more weight to the hind end.

Comes in handy when riding fast cross country at a gallop and you need to shift down to a canter to jump.

BTW, these half halts can happen as fast as the blink of an eye.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

bsms said:


> As it relates to this thread: One comment I hear a LOT from western riders about English riding can be summarized by, "Get out of his mouth!" Most western riders I know find it hard to imagine constantly wanting to do anything with the reins, or to need to constantly tell the horse what to do.


Well, it's kinda hard to take advice about what to do with the horse's mouth from those who don't know what we are doing with the reins.

And if you want a horse to travel straight you have to constantly correct them, mostly with leg and seat. There is no horse on this earth that travels straight.

How much correction depends on how accurate you want to be.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

lauraetco said:


> I want to add something...
> Someone mentioned something about a western saddle being more chair-like. Other way around...lol. The first time I sat in an english saddle, I said out loud, "I feel like I'm sitting on a chair". Maybe I just wasn't used to the shorter stirrups


It probably didn't fit you or its stirrup bars were placed really far forward. It can happen on any saddle, any horse, any discipline. 



DuffyDuck said:


> Can't you change stirrup length on a western saddle when you're sat in it?
> 
> Sorry lol, learning!


Yes but I think it's not as easy as an English saddle, namely because the ones I've seen are underneath the fender (the wide thing what would be like English stirrup leather) so you'd have to either flip it over your lap and do it, or lean down and do it.. or if you're smart, have someone help you


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## lauraetco (Sep 14, 2011)

SRich said:


> I think be able to ride both well makes you into a well rounded rider.


I agree!
English and Western are different. One isn't better than the other. It's what you prefer


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## Hunterjumper7654 (May 28, 2010)

I ride both and enjoy both.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

mildot said:


> ...And if you want a horse to travel straight you have to constantly correct them, mostly with leg and seat. There is no horse on this earth that travels straight.
> 
> How much correction depends on how accurate you want to be.


For the majority of western riders, straight means Point A to Point B. That is a difference that I like. Others would not. After all, most trails are not straight either, and most cows don't 'travel straight'. Any trail within miles of me is constantly twisting, has rocks & gullies, cactus on either side - how would I know if the horse was 'traveling straight'? For me, it means not hitting the cactus on either side of the trail...

I don't expect an English rider to take my advice on what to do with the reins, because I assume they have a reason for what they do. You will never find me telling a dressage rider what to do with the reins. In fact, I'm one of the few on HF who really doesn't care about 'rollkur'. I don't think I'm qualified to tell a world champion how to ride anything.

But when I ride, I want to set the goals and let the horse decide how to do it. I regularly use English tack, but if English riding requires a horse to be 'on the bit', then my riding is not English. I'm not attacking English riding or dressage or anyone else - just explaining my choices.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

bsms said:


> Any trail within miles of me is constantly twisting, has rocks & gullies, cactus on either side - how would I know if the horse was 'traveling straight'?


You know a horse is "straight" in a bend by when they lead with their outside shoulder, their neck is straight and not crooked, and the arc from inside shoulder to inside hind pretty much matches the curve on the trail.

If all you do is trail ride, then it may not matter to you. But if your horse is to perform in equine sports like eventing, then all rides are training rides.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

bsms said:


> But Val, I think you've tried EVERY form of riding possible! Maybe that is just a bad habit of yours you've picked up along the way...:lol:



That would mean me too ;D
Start of warm up and cool down I let the horse stretch, relax, mooch. I like to do it in a warm up, so then I can acess what sort of mood my girl is in.. also hacking out.. looooonnnggg reins.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

mildot said:


> ...If all you do is trail ride, then it may not matter to you. But if your horse is to perform in equine sports like eventing, then all rides are training rides.


All rides are training rides, regardless of style. Training starts the moment they see me, not when I get on their backs.

In an arena, I may work on straightness and bends, and provide a lot of input. As they learn to carry my weight in a balanced way, I expect them to do so without my input.

Some sports, such as dressage and reining, expect the horse to do what the rider says, when told, and nothing else. Other sports, such as cutting, require the horse to take initiative. I do no sports, but my pleasure in riding comes when the horse uses his initiative, anticipates, and tries to do something in common with me. I want the horse to think, "What are we doing?", and to try to make it happen even without my input. If I disagree or if I want to modify it, I will.

Neither approach is wrong. It is just different. As a rule of thumb, I think English riding expects more inputs, and thus wants a horse 'on the bit'. To a lot of western riders, that looks like a lot of fuss and bother. If you see dressage and think, "Get out of the horse's mouth!", you might be a western rider. If you think, "What incredible control!", you might be an English rider.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I ride western, have always ridden western, and likely always will ride western. I tried english once and I thought it was the most uncomfortable and insecure thing I'd ever done, though now, I suspect it's because the saddle didn't fit me. I am more secure bareback than I was in that english saddle. I can't say that I'll never give it another go, but it doesn't interest me as much as it once did. Plus, I can imagine that it would be hard as hell to work cattle the way I do in an english saddle LOL.


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## FirstLightFarm (Jan 20, 2012)

I started out riding as an adult and after reading about the different disciplines I was sure I only wanted to ride western. I didn't think I'd want to jump, and I thought I'd like having a bigger saddle and riding slower gaits.

But then, one summer, I found myself in a small town where the only good riding instruction available was hunt seat. So I got tempted over to the dark side and never made my way back.:twisted:

I think I may just be too lazy to haul out that big old heavy saddle and wool saddle pad.:wink:


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

bsms said:


> All rides are training rides, regardless of style. Training starts the moment they see me, not when I get on their backs.
> 
> In an arena, I may work on straightness and bends, and provide a lot of input. As they learn to carry my weight in a balanced way, I expect them to do so without my input.
> 
> ...


You and I agree more than we disagree. If you're ever in W Ohio let me know and I'll find you a horse.



> when the horse uses his initiative, anticipates, and tries to do something in common with me


Fundamentally we do not differ. But in many situations where english riding predominates, very close control of the horse is simply a matter of safety. I know someone who smashed a leg into several pieces from knee to ankle because she let her horse wander a little to close to the edge of the trail doing this


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## Radiowaves (Jul 27, 2010)

Western!

I prefer neck reining, I feel better about riding out a spook within the structure of a western saddle and I like the "looser rein" of western riding. I enjoy watching English riding but I definitely prefer riding western...  



WesternBella said:


> Vote & explain
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Mildot, you mention a 20m circle on a loose rein. If riding without contact is the goal, as you implied, why is the loose rein not for the whole test? Why is the only loose rein in grand prix tests in the free walk? Why isn't a loose run manouvering aside from the walk required in the kur?

The goals for carriage and contact are simply not the same. An English rider wants the horse to accept the contact, ride forward into the contact, the rider helps create impulsion by riding forward. A western rider wants their horse to back of the reins as soon as they shift them. If they pick up on the reins they want their horse to back off the contact and stop, now. A western rider wants to put there horse in a lope and have the horse keep loping till the cows come home unless the rider changes something. 

As BSMS said - English riding places mores emphasis on the training of the rider to be able to train and bring the best out of the horse. Western places more emphasis on training the horse to be able to perform no matter who is sitting on it. It would be much easier for a novice rider to sit on a western horse and out it through its paces with basic instruction than to do the same on a dressage horse. 

I have no bias either way - I've competed in English disciplines for nearly 15 years now, and have been gradually adding more western disciplines for the last 6 or so years.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

W_S, well said.

We, as western riders, expect our horses to have some level of autopilot once trained. I've never ridden a dressage horse, nor have I seen a dressage competition in real life, but all the videos I've seen, it looks like the rider is giving leg cues with every single stride at the trot. I don't know if that's truly the case or if it's just the way it _looks_, but I much prefer a horse that I can cue for a trot once and he will continue that same speed while I focus on other things, like counting cattle, looking for sick ones, or visually searching heavily wooded creek beds....or, just clearing my mind and enjoying the fresh air and the clear sky :wink:.

ETA: even the horses that I train, when I am actually schooling them, I give them a cue and I expect them to pick it up and continue that particular speed/direction until I tell them different.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

wild_spot said:


> Mildot, you mention a 20m circle on a loose rein. If riding without contact is the goal, as you implied, why is the loose rein not for the whole test? Why is the only loose rein in grand prix tests in the free walk? Why isn't a loose run manouvering aside from the walk required in the kur?
> 
> The goals for carriage and contact are simply not the same.


Your second sentence answers your first question, I think.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

smrobs said:


> nor have I seen a dressage competition in real life, but all the videos I've seen, it looks like the rider is giving leg cues with every single stride at the trot. I don't know if that's truly the case or if it's just the way it _looks_


It's the way it looks. The ankles are very relaxed and supple and move around during the trot.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

I'm just going to leave this right here


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

smrobs said:


> W_S, well said.
> 
> We, as western riders, expect our horses to have some level of autopilot once trained. I've never ridden a dressage horse, nor have I seen a dressage competition in real life, but all the videos I've seen, it looks like the rider is giving leg cues with every single stride at the trot. I don't know if that's truly the case or if it's just the way it _looks_, but I much prefer a horse that I can cue for a trot once and he will continue that same speed while I focus on other things,
> 
> ETA: even the horses that I train, when I am actually schooling them, I give them a cue and I expect them to pick it up and continue that particular speed/direction until I tell them different.


That is how I ride my horse. Though he needs more adjusting as he is still a green male who refuses to stop and wait for directions :wink:

The more trained the (Dressage) horse, the more autopiloty they become. Their job to carry themselves and work their hind and keep the rhythm. But until that point, it's your job to teach them that.. to ask for it correctly, and it help them maintain it till they can manage on their own. You don't have to micromanage them once they've got it.. that's how horses begin to tune out the aids and that's when they lose interest in their work. 

If I had to constantly direct every hoof... I would get burned out really fast. But I still do my part to keep up.. keeping a solid supple seat and nice stretchy legs. giving arms and leading eyes and shoulders. Two separate jobs, one entity. Similar to any discipline like western, right?


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

In response to someone talking about the self carriage/lack of contact western horses have, you wrote this:



mildot said:


> *It's the same. * A horse that needs constant rider input to maintain pace is not in self carriage, and that is not desired in any english discipline either.


That is what I was referring to, and why I was trying to point out that it is NOT the same. It is very different.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

mildot said:


> Well, it's kinda hard to take advice about what to do with the horse's mouth from those who don't know what we are doing with the reins.
> 
> And if you want a horse to travel straight you have to constantly correct them, mostly with leg and seat. There is no horse on this earth that travels straight.
> 
> How much correction depends on how accurate you want to be.


I've only ridden 25-30 horses in my life, which is not even 1% of the horses in the world, but I can assure you that all of them were "on the earth" . I can't say this for all of them, because I didn't spend as much time riding all of them and straight line isn't something one normally pays much attention to in the short term. However 4 of them I spent/spend a great deal of time with. All 4 certtainly could, can and do walk a straight line without correction. My late QH mare did it extremely well. Didn't realize it was such a rare trait. Perhaps I should have used her for more breeding than just the couple of times.

I started out riding Dressage and Hunt (68-71). Fought against going to Western, but discovered the hard way (oh the fun they had over that ) that Dressage and Hunt wasn't suited for working cattle. In the process I discovered that things I had come to believe via Dressage and Hunt just weren't so. Certainly that the bit wasn't needed, so by default there was nothing I needed to do with regards to riding or controling my horse that envolved it's mouth. I still have to wonder why man ever started using bits. You certainly don't need them for Western, jumping or riding in general. Neck reining absolutely spoiled me and I'll never go back to anything else. So nice only using one hand. Haven't used a bit since the late 70's. Can jump fine riding Wester with a Trooper saddle and no bit.

When someone doesn't need to use the horses mouth to control it causes them to wonder what other people do. I started out using it too, because like everyone else rliding that style I was told I needed it. We do what we're taught. And sometimes we learn different. Just like we do what we're comfortable with until (if) we find something we feel is better.


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## Legend (Nov 15, 2011)

I am not going to get into this, but I will state my opinion.

I switched from Western a long while back, and I honestly, hope to never ride in a Western saddle again :lol: Switching from Western to English has changed all of my views about riding. Personally, I tried barrel racing for a long while, and found it rather fun, but then I switched to English and started jumping, and I realized that was where my heart was. 

I would way rather spend a day jumping, than trail riding.

But it depend on each individual, and their taste.

As I said, my life, and heart is in jumping, is in English. And for some of you, yours is in Western. It goes to show that everyone is different, and it takes all different kinds of people to make the world go round'.

Yes, I know, I'm bad, and might get bashed, but I admit, I dont _always_ keep tight rein contact when riding English, and I occasionally put in a neck rein here and their, and I occasionally find it amusing to run a set of barrels, in a English saddle. :lol: But still, jumping is my favorite part about riding, and I hope always will be.

Some of you said that you like to ride Western as you are more relaxed than if you were doing English, and that you feel tense in English, but I think its just what you are comfortable with. When I first started riding English, my back was tense, and going over a jump it ripped, lol, my back has always hurt since, but now I know, that if you stay relaxed, it calls for a easier ride  I will always be more comfortable English, but thats just me.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Legend said:


> I am not going to get into this, but I will state my opinion.
> 
> I switched from Western a long while back, and I honestly, hope to never ride in a Western saddle again :lol: Switching from Western to English has changed all of my views about riding. Personally, I tried barrel racing for a long while, and found it rather fun, but then I switched to English and started jumping, and I realized that was where my heart was.
> 
> ...


Why would you think you'd get bashed for liking to jump? A LOT of people like jumping
I like jumping too. I just don't do it with a Hunt seat saddle anymore. I love Trooper saddles and Western style riding. Neither of which excludes jumping. I'll even jump two handed (like the old days :lol if my other hand is empty just to give it something to do. But I jump one handed too, since at times I'm carrying something.
I've always disliked Western saddles, even with I was using one, because they are good for working cattle (wheither I liked them of not :lol
Now you can jump with a Western too (been there, done that too, but not for fun :lol, but it's not something I'd recommend.
And if I'd never been exposed to a Buena Vista or Trooper saddle I'd likely still do jumping from a Hunt seat or many one of the Aussie saddle designs, since it still lends itself to Western style riding.

And remember that English is not a style of riding, We didn't use the term "English" when I was riding in Europe. We called it by whatever the discipline was. The "English" saddle isn't English at all. We gave it that name in the US. It was developed in the Germany/Austria/Hungary area of Europe to give their Cav a mobility advantage over the bulkier saddles with a more middle ages design.
Then Trooper came along around the first 1/2 of the 1800's and is more English (I think they either designed it or were envolved). Developed for the military to provide better weight displacement so as to help reduce the number of horses taken out of action from back problems (a problem with the "English" saddle when used for the very long periods of riding they did) and as a saddle easier for newer troops to ride. Must have been a pretty good idea, since the US is the only major western power that didn't adopt it for it's military, but today many of our mounted police units use them. As do most of rest of the western and Engllish speaking countries.
That concludes our breif intro into some European designed saddles of the 1700's and 1800's. Next week we'll look at the saddles (or lack there of) of the histories early horse cultrures. Check your schedules for class times and test dates. All required reading is listed on the back of your class schedule sheet. :lol:


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## Radiowaves (Jul 27, 2010)

Legend said:


> But it depend on each individual, and their taste.
> 
> As I said, my life, and heart is in jumping, is in English. And for some of you, yours is in Western. It goes to show that everyone is different, and it takes all different kinds of people to make the world go round'.


One of the cool things about riding horses is that there are so many different activities, techniques, etc to enjoy. Any given individual may love 'em all or might have a special attraction to one phase/type of riding or another. None's "better" or "worse", just different...

Honestly, the core of my enjoyment is the connection/relationship with the horses, whatever the activity. I'm just thankful for the opportunity!


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## IRaceBarrels (Jan 21, 2012)

Western all the way. 

That being said I have oober respect for English. Particularly jumpers. I can't even watch jumping its so stressful. But aside from jumping I find most other English events, well boring. VERY hard but not very thrilling 



My heart will all ways be western. To me its not just a riding style but more a life style. Not that I live on a ranch, but I do live in a small town. One of dem fancy hickvilles. I live a rather "country" life style so why would I ride English? 



I know some people think that they feel more connected to their horse with a smaller English saddle. I rode English for a year and never felt connected. Yes I could feel more horse under me but I didn't feel like I knew the animal better because of it. With western it just feels more natural. Its more relaxed. I am more concerned about my horse, than how straight my back is and how well my posture is. Yes I still want to look good but seeing as I do timed events it can go on the back burner. 



Also western attire? 112% better looking than English. I'm sorry but I can jump off a horse and go eat dinner with out people looking at me weird. I have more choices then off white and cream britches. Or maybe a navy or black jacket. Hat, long sleeve shirt, jeans, belt, boots. That is the dress codes for national level western shows (not including like pleasure). I can bling out my saddle as much as I want. I was reading a thread on here about if its ok to have metal studs on the brow band on an English head stall. I had to laugh a little at the differences in styles. 



Western is just a more down to earth way to ride. You can relax, drop you reins and just have your hores walk around. There is a lot more variety. From cattle work, pleasure, reining, trail, to gaming.


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## WesternBella (Jan 7, 2012)

IRaceBarrels said:


> Western all the way.
> 
> That being said I have oober respect for English. Particularly jumpers. I can't even watch jumping its so stressful. But aside from jumping I find most other English events, well boring. VERY hard but not very thrilling
> 
> ...


I agreed with everything you just said 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I voted Western because that is my main focus, but I truly do love and appreciate both!


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

smrobs said:


> We, as western riders, expect our horses to have some level of autopilot once trained. I've never ridden a dressage horse, nor have I seen a dressage competition in real life, but all the videos I've seen, it looks like the rider is giving leg cues with every single stride at the trot. I don't know if that's truly the case or if it's just the way it _looks_, but I much prefer a horse that I can cue for a trot once and he will continue that same speed while I focus on other things, like counting cattle, looking for sick ones, or visually searching heavily wooded creek beds....


smrobs, with properly trained horse you cue for the trot (or canter) and it should stay there with the same rhythm until you give a different cue._* The rhythm should not change *_(as my instructor always keeps saying at the lessons). When I ask for canter departure on circle I expect it to canter the circle until I drop my hips telling her, OK downward transition. No difference with the western horse really. :wink: The contact is what you maintain constantly while western rider just have reins loose. 

As for autopilot... Well... Not a good example (as it should NOT be done this way of course), but I had several health issues to kick in just before my test in Fall, and I had quite a limited control over my legs and seat. My qh basically rode on her own first half of the test with very subtle cues from me. Of course, it was NOT perfect, and it worked only because it was just a Training level, but what I'm trying to say training is still there, and horse knows what to do and maintains what is asked in 1st place.


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## mlreubens (Dec 18, 2011)

For India and I it seemed to be a logical switch. I needed to ride with more contact than less. In Dressage we are always having a conversation, throughout the duration of the ride.


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## Legend (Nov 15, 2011)

IRaceBarrels said:


> Western all the way.
> 
> That being said I have oober respect for English. Particularly jumpers. I can't even watch jumping its so stressful. But aside from jumping I find most other English events, well boring. VERY hard but not very thrilling
> 
> ...


I think English is more relaxing than Western :lol: I dont think the clothes have anything to do with it, I can ride my horse in pants, a western shirt, and a cowboy hat just as easily as I can with breeches and a jacket on, the clothes dont matter.

I can also put studs, ribbon, or whatever on my horses brow band, who's to stop me? As long as I am not in some higher end show, its perfectly fine.

I think English has sports that are more fun than Western :lol: Their is Dressage, Endurance Riding, Eventing, horse Racing (Those track saddles are more simular to English than Western, by far) Horse ball, Polo, Polocrosse, and Show Jumping. I think all of those have more... funness (< Thats not a word) Than Western.

But alas, I respect your style.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

kitten_Val said:


> smrobs, with properly trained horse you cue for the trot (or canter) and it should stay there with the same rhythm until you give a different cue._* The rhythm should not change *_(as my instructor always keeps saying at the lessons). When I ask for canter departure on circle I expect it to canter the circle until I drop my hips telling her, OK downward transition. No difference with the western horse really. :wink: The contact is what you maintain constantly while western rider just have reins loose.


That's all well and good for riding for shows, training, riding for few miles of trails, etc... When on a long ride (i.e. riding all day and for more than one day....weekend riding trip) at some point I might go to a trot to cover more distance in less time than a walk without a large energy drain. Unless we come to an intersection or something that will cause me to stop I let the horse trot until she got tired. I didn't need to cue her to slow down. She knew when she was tired and and would slow the trot, and unless prompted other wise, come to a walk. She would go back to a trot if I asked, so I could keep the pace up a while longer, but I relied on her to tell me when she was tired. If she'd just kept up the pace waiting for me to cue her I'd end up with an exhausted horse that needed an extended rest period right then. As it was I just have a horse that needs to walk for a while and cool down some after trotting for however many miles she went. She knows when she's tired before I do and knows how to let me know so that I can judge if I want to push the pace a bit more or slow it down and conserve.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

its lbs not miles said:


> That's all well and good for riding for shows, training, riding for few miles of trails, etc... When on a long ride (i.e. riding all day and for more than one day....weekend riding trip) at some point I might go to a trot to cover more distance in less time than a walk without a large energy drain. Unless we come to an intersection or something that will cause me to stop I let the horse trot until she got tired. *I didn't need to cue her to slow down*. She knew when she was tired and and would slow the trot, and unless prompted other wise, come to a walk. She would go back to a trot if I asked, so I could keep the pace up a while longer, but I relied on her to tell me when she was tired. *If she'd just kept up the pace waiting for me to cue her I'd end up with an exhausted horse that needed an extended rest period right then.* As it was I just have a horse that needs to walk for a while and cool down some after trotting for however many miles she went. She knows when she's tired before I do and knows how to let me know so that I can judge if I want to push the pace a bit more or slow it down and conserve.


Do you REALLY think she meant she wants a horse trained so that it will continue at a certain gait or pace until exhaustion? 

Seriously?

Way to take things out of context.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

mildot said:


> Do you REALLY think she meant she wants a horse trained so that it will continue at a certain gait or pace until exhaustion?
> 
> Seriously?
> 
> Way to take things out of context.


Well, since my mind reading skills haven't ever developed fully and never applied to written post anyway I can only go by what someone says.

"with properly trained horse you cue for the trot (or canter) and with properly trained horse you cue for the trot (or canter) and it should stay there with the same rhythm until you give a different cue._* The rhythm should not change *_(as my instructor always keeps saying at the lessons). 


Is there a meaning I missed on "with properly trained horse you cue for the trot (or canter) and it should stay there with the same rhythm until you give a different cue. the rhythm should not change"?

If you want to say it's out of context then the whole thing is out of context. You're talknig arena, show and short time perioid riding vs working, distance and long time period riding. And in that case trying to compair the rules you use for this "English" dischipline (didn't catch which one) ("English" isn't really an accurate term, since there are many disciplines) to Western is a waste of time. It's like comparing the pole vault track and field training with the cross country tack and field training. What one wants, needs and expects from it's horse can be very different than what the other wants. So it's kind of silly saying that the horse should do this or respond to that just because it's what the dicipline you practice does.

I guess I should say that the horse should never need to have it's head pulled to turn so that no pressure is put on the mouth. The horse should respond immediately to nothing more than feeling the rein against it's neck. For a working cattle horse that's true. I could also say all rein control is done with one hand so that the other hand can be free. Now if I said that all the "English" disciplines would be having fits, because they weren't taught that. Even I said it couldn't be right 41 years ago when I rode Dressage and Hunt, but I soon learned otherwise (not ony right, but easier)

I've done three styles. Except that you're riding a horse with all of them there really isn't much that Dressage and Hunt have in common wlith Western. So for one discipline to say that this is what you should do doesn't mean it applies to other disciplines. If it did we could throw away the bits and get rid of bridles too. Riding would become one style and we'd eventually return to the riding styles of histories ancient horse cultures. Which would mean we'd all have to learn how to ride differently (and I'm too old for that much change in my style of riding :lol

But that would also be the end of the show horse industry so for the sake of those who love doing that let's not :lol:. It would put a lot of people out of work during already hard times.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

IRaceBarrels said:


> I know some people think that they feel more connected to their horse with a smaller English saddle. I rode English for a year and never felt connected. Yes I could feel more horse under me but I didn't feel like I knew the animal better because of it. With western it just feels more natural. Its more relaxed. *I am more concerned about my horse, than how straight my back is and how well my posture is.* Yes I still want to look good but seeing as I do timed events it can go on the back burner.


Alright... it's not about how you look at all. Your back needs to be straight NOT hollow or dipped or hunched, so that you can better communicate to the horse. A hollow back means a clenched back, a braced, stiff back. You can't honestly be relaxed if your back is hollow.. you'd pop out of that saddle like a super ball. And your back can't be hunched because you'd lose your center of gravity so you compensate by either putting your legs back (though you'd probably keel over) or moving into a chair seat which doesn't put you on your seat bones as well as being ear-hip-heel. 

Your arms are supple but you keep that elbow angle closed, because while contact in English is important it is NOT as important as the horse stretching and engaging its own back and hind. So you want to have the starting angle 90 degrees, and then give in your elbows by increasing the angle to 98, 100, 110, 150 degrees even, to encourage the horse to stretch. Contact is not the most important thing. 

If you ride English just to "sit pretty" then you are not riding at all. You probably aren't comfortable for the horse you're on. Yes Western may be more "relaxing" but the reason English riders (the top ones) look like they aren't doing anyhing is because they are so in tune with the horse and the horse can feel even the slightest shift in weight. Not because they sit pretty, press some buttons, and watch the horse do the robot. 

And you bet your noodle that I put my horse first.. every dang thing I have ever done is for my horse. I bought my horse Christmas presents (boots for protection, bit wipes to clean bit without putting in cold water, a new bridle that fits him better, leather cleaner so his bridle was nice and supple and loose and his saddle was cleaner.) before I bought things for my parents because I wanted to make sure I had enough money to get him everything he needed. I had to have TWO jobs at the age of 17 just so I could afford the basics for him, and get him out of the awful situation he was in. I want my horse happy and I want him healthy. So if you think for ONE second that I don't give a hoot about my horse and want to "just look pretty" you best be expecting some hellacious weather, missy, because that puts the thunder in my storm and I am expecting to rain on your parade. 

Rawr!

Alright, I am done wearing the grumpy pants. Do not criticize something or compare to something you have no idea about. 

And for the record, I will say it again. I love both disciplines.. I've got minimal experience (2-3 years) in Western and hope to get back into it with my horse. But we're doing English first as he's still pretty green and I'm learning too


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

its lbs not miles said:


> Is there a meaning I missed on "with properly trained horse you cue for the trot (or canter) and it should stay there with the same rhythm until you give a different cue. the rhythm should not change"?


As long as it's within the limits of the horse (that is fit and in good health) YES, I expect my horse to maintain the gait of my choice until I ask for the change. If you force the horse to far pass those limits or make the unfit horse/horse with health problems to lope and lope and lope (or even trot) then sorry, but that doesn't fall under "good horsemanship", and I'm not sure the person should be riding the horse in 1st place.


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## gingerscout (Jan 18, 2012)

I ride western..and I have never ridden english.. but I never thought of myself wnting to wear breeches and learn all that comes with english riding.. not to say I wouldnt consider it.. don't want to learn jumping or anything like that.. but im into horses that are more primarily ridden english.. not to say I cant throw a western saddle on one, but people say why buy such and such a horse if you cant ride it the way it has been trained to ride


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

gingerscout said:


> I ride western..and I have never ridden english.. but I never thought of myself wnting to wear breeches and learn all that comes with english riding.. not to say I wouldnt consider it.. don't want to learn jumping or anything like that.. but im into horses that are more primarily ridden english.. not to say I cant throw a western saddle on one, but people say why buy such and such a horse if you cant ride it the way it has been trained to ride


Breeches are comfortable for me.. I can sit in them all day.. jeans and I not so much but I have ridden in jeans before. But I am a fan of those fringed chaps... woo that would not bide well with my horse though xD hehe

Yep, ride the horse how you want to ride. Training is training is training. If the horse gets confused, then you're there to help it along. And you can do it in a Western too!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I don't think IRaceBarrels was suggesting folks riding English don't care about their horses. I think she is saying she lets her horse determine what works when she rides, rather than a judge for a specific discipline.

As an example (I think), a western rider normally sits straight in the saddle at a canter. However, my very short-backed Appy-Arab is very bouncy at a canter, and any bounce tends to hit his loins. So for him, I put most of my weight into my thighs, lean forward, and ride the canter in a way that would make both of the western riding instructors I've had faint. But when I do that, he'll go 3-4 times farther before thinking about quitting, and he is visibly happier with my 175 lbs doing that than with my 100 lb daughter-in-law riding in the 'correct' western style.

Of course, the same flexibility works with English riding as well. My BLM mustang is only 13 hands, and his back is so short that we've taken to riding him English-only. I can't find a western saddle that fits him, so he isn't ridden western. And no decent English rider would try to make a jumper out of a horse that isn't built for it or insist on using Bit A if Bit A doesn't fit the horse.

Where I live, I've never seen anyone but me riding outside an arena in an English saddle. That is probably why a lot of folks around here associate riding English with riding for show. It isn't fair, though. I've met western riders who wouldn't think of posting, or even trying it to see if their horse trots better that way. You can find uncaring people in every sport and in every location, including the trail...


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

bsms said:


> I've met western riders who wouldn't think of posting, or even trying it to see if their horse trots better that way. You can find uncaring people in every sport and in every location, including the trail...


Yeah  That's what makes me feel so sad, when I see no love and respect for their horse. On the trail it's usually the ones that rent the horses, they just want to trail ride, they don't know or care about how the horse feels. Least, that is my experience.


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## gingerscout (Jan 18, 2012)

Skyseternalangel said:


> Yeah  That's what makes me feel so sad, when I see no love and respect for their horse. On the trail it's usually the ones that rent the horses, they just want to trail ride, they don't know or care about how the horse feels. Least, that is my experience.


 well I do care about horses well beings.. being a plus sized rider I have to take into account what I do and how it can affect horses.. I just dont have the urge to learn how to ride english.. thats a matter of preference.. I would never say I dont want to learn how to be a better rider, or proper seat or anything like that.. I just prefer a western saddle, I may consider learning it eventually though


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Good on you, gingerscout! The more people that truly care, the better


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## gingerscout (Jan 18, 2012)

Skyseternalangel said:


> Breeches are comfortable for me.. I can sit in them all day.. jeans and I not so much but I have ridden in jeans before. But I am a fan of those fringed chaps... woo that would not bide well with my horse though xD hehe
> 
> Yep, ride the horse how you want to ride. Training is training is training. If the horse gets confused, then you're there to help it along. And you can do it in a Western too!


 Thats what i figure.. If Im going to spend big money on something down the line.. can I never ride it because the horse has never carried a western saddle.. or like people tell me such and such a horse is a waste to ride western.. well I dont think it is.. and I dont really think the horse cares the difference of a western saddle or english on his back.. Im still riding the horse regardless.. as long as the horse is happy and can carry me well, and is well taken care of.. thats whats important.. not what discipline I ride in..lol


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## WesternBella (Jan 7, 2012)

I live for posting trot..and I'm a western girl!! I love posting more than anything! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FirstLightFarm (Jan 20, 2012)

gingerscout said:


> I'm into horses that are more primarily ridden english.. not to say I cant throw a western saddle on one, but people say why buy such and such a horse if you cant ride it the way it has been trained to ride


Houdini, my QH, had only been ridden western when I got him as an eight year old. He learned english pretty quickly. 

I had to experiment with a few bits because at first he'd resist contact by slinging his head around. But once I tried the french link hunter D-ring, he relaxed. 

The other thing I had to work on was getting him to pick up his head and get off his forehand - but a few lunging sessions in the tack took care of that.

It was pretty simple, really.

I bought Houdini because he had such nice comfortable gaits and because he was so good-natured and steady. Much easier to teach a different discipline than to teach personality and nerve.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

kitten_Val said:


> As long as it's within the limits of the horse (that is fit and in good health) YES, I expect my horse to maintain the gait of my choice until I ask for the change. If you force the horse to far pass those limits or make the unfit horse/horse with health problems to lope and lope and lope (or even trot) then sorry, but that doesn't fall under "good horsemanship", and I'm not sure the person should be riding the horse in 1st place.


So you know instinctively that your horse is about to get tired before it does? :lol:

You can ride the same horse, in excellent health, the same 25 miles every day and they'll get tired at different points on an given day. It would amazing to find one that got tired at exactly 5.35 miles every time.

I realize that for someone who only rides a few hours in a day it's no big deal. As I said earlier. Comparing those discipllines that only ride limited hours and distances to those that ride all day for 15 - 30 or more miles make for different rules. If you take your horse, that you ride now, and put it in a trot and you're going to make your best time for 15 miles you're choices are just pick a point at random that you want to slow down, or let your horse tell you it wants to slow down. Neither will hurt the horse, but you must be going to get pretty upset if your horse tires before you though it would and tells you it's tired before you realized it was, because it will make the change without your cue. And it's not because your horse isn't properly trained, but you've taken an athlete trained for pole vaulting and are expecting that training to apply to cross country.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

My horses like to go, but none of them have ever had any problems with letting me know when they are ready for a break. Val's point about trotting until allowed to stop if valid. A well trained horse WILL give a good effort without constant pushing, just as any halfway decent rider will figure out that their horse needs a break.

When I refer to a horse on autopilot, I mean a horse that is using its judgment to accomplish a goal. For example, if I'm trotting somewhere on a horse and the footing gets worse, I expect the horse to slow down on his own. He knows more about what the footing is like than I do. 

The little mustang I now own was asked to ride in a line spinning around a point - and he was near the outside edge. His rider didn't ask for a canter, but he did so to keep up with the horses on either side of him. That is an example of a horse figuring out what the rider wanted to do, and then doing what was needed to make it happen.

To me, a horse deciding he needs to canter to keep up is a good thing. For some types of riding - and I think it is true of reining (western) and dressage (English) - it would be up to the rider to tell him a canter is needed.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Another good example of a horse on "autopilot" is my horse Dobe. If I just ride along and leave him to his own devices, he will continue in the direction I originally pointed him, but he will weave around any branches that hang low enough to hit me in the face even if they won't touch him at all. Because he does that, I can ride along watching something behind me without fear of a branch knocking me off the horse. Of course, he will go wherever I point him when I am "actively" riding, but left to his own choices, he chooses to go around the branches.

And lbs, yes a good rider can tell when their horse begins to weaken in the gait, even if they don't change rhythm. Yes, I can tell when a horse is beginning to tire before he gets to the point where he _needs_ to stop. Part of being a good horseman is having the common sense, knowledge, and experience to know how far you can push a horse _without_ pushing them too far.

And just for reference, I am not a leisurely trail rider. I do ranch work, which often consists of 20+ miles in a day over rough country at all 4 gaits.


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## IRaceBarrels (Jan 21, 2012)

WesternBella said:


> I live for posting trot..and I'm a western girl!! I love posting more than anything!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Same here! I post all the time. I did a 20 edurance race and posted the whole thing. I would always get yelled at in gaming practice for trotting the pattern and posting. My coach would always be till me to "SIT DOWN !!!" Haha. Mind you that was on a saddle bred so we were an odd couple. :-|


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## RoosHuman (Dec 27, 2011)

To me... english is just more "fun" for arena work, but, I feel much more relaxed hitting the trails in a western saddle. I like them both!


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## WesternBella (Jan 7, 2012)

IRaceBarrels said:


> Same here! I post all the time. I did a 20 edurance race and posted the whole thing. I would always get yelled at in gaming practice for trotting the pattern and posting. My coach would always be till me to "SIT DOWN !!!" Haha. Mind you that was on a saddle bred so we were an odd couple. :-|


Yes, I need to quit posting while doing barrels! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

bsms said:


> My horses like to go, but none of them have ever had any problems with letting me know when they are ready for a break. Val's point about trotting until allowed to stop if valid. A well trained horse WILL give a good effort without constant pushing, just as any halfway decent rider will figure out that their horse needs a break.
> 
> When I refer to a horse on autopilot, I mean a horse that is using its judgment to accomplish a goal. For example, if I'm trotting somewhere on a horse and the footing gets worse, I expect the horse to slow down on his own. He knows more about what the footing is like than I do.
> 
> ...


You're making my point (perhaps bit more subtle :lol
They'll make a change as soon as they feel the need without being cued. I've never seen one push itself of it's own accord. And as you point out with the terrain, the horse will do what it feels it right unless you tell it otherwise (but after it's cued you). So your properly trained horse actually cues you in those cases. (not that you didn't say it didn't...you actually pointed out that it does )
They will change the gait, pace, speed or do something when they feel the need to slow down or change for whatever the reason. That's the difference with a properly trained horse that's been riding greater distance vs shorter, and over varying terrain vs flat work. 
I've known a person who did Dressage and took up Endurance riding and one thing she learned from it, and commented on, was that she needed to ride differently to be better at Endurance. Different saddle and different riding discipline. Even concluded that teaching her horse to neck rein was better for that. Elizabeth started out with all the usual views, but actually doing it is different from believing it. And she has an excellent mount. To be honest I would not have imagined that he would have been as good at Endurance, but he showed me that being trained for Dressage didn't stop him from making a good Endurance mount too.:shock: He learned the new lessons and to see him doing one you'd never know that he does well at the other. She still prefers Dressage riding over Endurance, but my hats off to her for doing something so different (personally I think she does better at Endurance, but it's not about what I think :lol:, but what she enjoyed doing more).
The horses I had (and still train for) were use to doing long rides and could trot some miles before making a change (and that can be nothing more than the speed of the trot or a snort...horses each have their own ways as you've already noted in your example) and being taken to a walk, or stopping for a break if the location was good. They let us know and it's done WITHOUT us giving them a cue. Our cue for them to make a change comes AFTER they cue that it's time.
So the statement that a properly trained horse will keep the rythm until we cue it, while true for some disciiplines, is not accurate as a blanket statment. Anymore than a properly trained horse should respond immediate to a turn command given by a slight rein contact to the opposit side of the neck. We can't make a blanket statement about something true for one discipline that does not apply to others. (shoot, I've known my old mare to take cues from the cattle quicker than I could catch it, but that's one thing that made her so good)
As for the Mustang, the "properly trained" statement would mean it was certainly not properly trained. Yet for that type of riding it is. Being right for one doesn't make it right for all. What's proper depends on what the discipline is.

However, all this is off subject since this is suppose to be about saddle preferences. Western or English. Some like both. I like neither (but I already went over all that on page 1).


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

its lbs not miles said:


> However, all this is off subject since this is suppose to be about saddle preferences. Western or English. Some like both. I like neither (but I already went over all that on page 1).


Pretty sure it's about the style of riding, tack, and the gist of it not only the saddle.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

IRaceBarrels said:


> Same here! I post all the time. I did a 20 edurance race and posted the whole thing. I would always get yelled at in gaming practice for trotting the pattern and posting. My coach would always be till me to "SIT DOWN !!!" Haha. Mind you that was on a saddle bred so we were an odd couple. :-|


Gaited Saddlebred? If so that's a smooth ride :lol:. But if you were posting so much I'll guess that it was 3 gaited like most horses.
Still, for Endurance it's worth the posting to trot and cover the ground with time and still have the horse in good shape at the checkpoints.
Was that 20 in one year? If so you did a impressive schedule. What saddle are you using (actual saddle :lol:, I know it's Western).


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## jumanji321 (Dec 1, 2010)

WesternBella said:


> Yes, I need to quit posting while doing barrels!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
Really? I was taught that when you do the pattern at a trot, you post between barrels to urge the horse on and then sit around the barrel to tell it to slow down.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

its lbs not miles said:


> So you know instinctively that your horse is about to get tired before it does? :lol:


I do, because I know them to pieces. So yes, I pretty much feel/know every movement/mood/limits and when it's enough or about to be enough for each. :wink: 

BTW, after reading your other post... I was talking about ring work, not so much about the trail riding. Trail riding is time-off/desensitizing training for them (and me). They'd still maintain the gait if asked, but overall I'm much easier on them on trail (although unfortunately if I'd allow my paint to do what she wants she probably would just canter off till she drops). As for steep hill, water crossing, or some other path that requires a good judgement I usually let my qh to decide (because she'll make a better decision on how to approach it/where to put her feet and because I trust her on that).


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## WesternBella (Jan 7, 2012)

jumanji321 said:


> Really? I was taught that when you do the pattern at a trot, you post between barrels to urge the horse on and then sit around the barrel to tell it to slow down.


Interesting..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## IRaceBarrels (Jan 21, 2012)

its lbs not miles said:


> Gaited Saddlebred? If so that's a smooth ride :lol:. But if you were posting so much I'll guess that it was 3 gaited like most horses.
> Still, for Endurance it's worth the posting to trot and cover the ground with time and still have the horse in good shape at the checkpoints.
> Was that 20 in one year? If so you did a impressive schedule. What saddle are you using (actual saddle :lol:, I know it's Western).


She was gaited but only did the weird trot thing some times. She wasn't my horse and I don't know a thing about Saddlebreds haha. I just know in straight aways She started moving differently. But yeah it was really smooth. I got weird looks from the saddle seat riders because I would be warming up for gaming while they did for their class. 

The 20 mile race was on a mule that also wasn't mine. I didn't train it or anything. I just rode it that one time. The saddle was just some old ranch saddle. These were not fancy arabs with special saddles. They were working ranch animals that did races sometimes. But one of them still won the race .


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## Kashmere (Nov 30, 2009)

Where's the "Both" button?


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## xEquestrianx (Aug 30, 2009)

English. I grew up riding western.. And I still do both. But English makes me feel much more connected to the horse.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

IRaceBarrels said:


> She was gaited but only did the weird trot thing some times. She wasn't my horse and I don't know a thing about Saddlebreds haha. I just know in straight aways She started moving differently. But yeah it was really smooth. I got weird looks from the saddle seat riders because I would be warming up for gaming while they did for their class.
> 
> The 20 mile race was on a mule that also wasn't mine. I didn't train it or anything. I just rode it that one time. The saddle was just some old ranch saddle. These were not fancy arabs with special saddles. They were working ranch animals that did races sometimes. But one of them still won the race .


:lol: My mistake. I thought you'd done 20 Endurance races. Wondered if you'd done them all in the year (which would have been an incredible accomplishment both you and the horse )

I've always seen endurance riding as the major test of what a horse is capable of. The Cav at one point had a test for the horse. 300 miles in 5 days. That would really put the horse and rider to the test. Certainly separates the cream.


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## IRaceBarrels (Jan 21, 2012)

its lbs not miles said:


> :lol: My mistake. I thought you'd done 20 Endurance races. Wondered if you'd done them all in the year (which would have been an incredible accomplishment both you and the horse )
> 
> I've always seen endurance riding as the major test of what a horse is capable of. The Cav at one point had a test for the horse. 300 miles in 5 days. That would really put the horse and rider to the test. Certainly separates the cream.


Haha no way I just did it that one time. It was super fun but I can't image the training for races like that. 300 miles in five days :shock: How?... I'm going to leave that for more experienced riders.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

its lbs not miles said:


> I've always seen endurance riding as the major test of what a horse is capable of. The Cav at one point had a test for the horse. 300 miles in 5 days. That would really put the horse and rider to the test. Certainly separates the cream.


That sounds like so much fun but the horse would have to be in such good shape.. and the rider too! 

One day I want to try it


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Skyseternalangel said:


> That sounds like so much fun but the horse would have to be in such good shape.. and the rider too!
> 
> One day I want to try it


It was back in the day. Morgans and Saddlebreds (and what became Saddlebreds if before they set a breed standard) were the darlings of the Cav (Saddlebreds were a LOT sturdier and more robust than the show horses they breed today). The days when horses were more still more numerous than cars and still widely used.

Yes, they had to be in very good shape to travel distances at a good speed. Riders had to be in good shape too. Most riders I've known (and their horses) who do shows, jumping competitions and even fox hunts are not in condition to make an Endurance run.
Horses are still trained to do the long distance rides and Endurance races (which is tougher than just the long distance ride....speed being the difference). The Cav test averaged 60 miles a day, but it's the number of days at that pace that made it tough. Even today you have one day races that are over 60 miles. The Tevis Cup is 100 miles, but that's an exceptional race. As fit as the horses the enter the Tevis Cup are, most of them don't finish. A lot get pulled at check points if they don't pass the Vet check. Even not having the heart rate slow to normal within 30 min (among otherthings) will have the horse pulled as unfit to continue. Even horses that might have passed their last check point might get pulled out by their rider if something doesn't seem right. Most Endurance riders see finishling in good shape as the objective. To some the biggest prize is being the one who finishes with their horse in the best condition at the finish. I've always looked at it as being more about going the distance and having a sound horse then it is about coming in first. Some people don't even "race" across the finish  (finishing sound is the real win)
Of course you also have CTR which is another interesting competition, but not one I'm likely to ever train for. I fell in love with distance riding about 38 years ago (yes, I'm getting old :lol and that love hasn't changed (although the horses have). I'm not in it for racing, just going long distances. In the past I never had a conditioned horse AND the spare time to do it at the same time (had either one, or the other), however my filly looks like she might have some promise, so if I still feel up to it in about 5 years (have to train and condition her) I might try the old Cav test just to see if we can do it. Have to weigh out the gear and supplies (they had to do the test with the trooper, his gear, saddle, tack, weapon, etc.....they tried to keep the weight to about 20% of the mounts weight, but it was usually closer to 22-23% depending on the weight of the trooper and the horse) The desired weight for Cav troopers was mid 140's and lower, but they could be over 150 lbs in some cases (probably for some officer :lol, since the only weight variable would be that of the trooper and horse. Everything else had a standard weight.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Yeah that's the important thing, finishing sound. But how cool!


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

I ride both, but that wasn't an option, so I chose western since I have ridden western the most over the years. I don't have a preference for either, but for training horses, will definitely choose western. 

Well, in actuality, I have ridden bareback the most over the years, but the mare I have now is not a fan of it, so it's western or english for us, although I have ridden her bareback some.


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## caseymyhorserocks (Apr 5, 2010)

English. I can feel the horse way better... The western saddle just makes me feel like I am sitting on a block of wood with someone shaking it.


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## Tianimalz (Jan 6, 2009)

caseymyhorserocks said:


> English. I can feel the horse way better... The western saddle just makes me feel like I am sitting on a block of wood with someone shaking it.


You need a better saddle then :lol:


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## gingerscout (Jan 18, 2012)

Tianimalz said:


> You need a better saddle then :lol:


 I have never ridden english so Im not one to talk.. but I always feel connected to the horse when I ride.. on another note.. every post of yours I read I get that song from your signature stuck in my head.. and I have to either hear it or I start singing it in my head:lol:


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

I have yet to find a comfortable western saddle, one that fits me. Course I wasn't looking, I just hopped on anyway.


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## Radiowaves (Jul 27, 2010)

Skyseternalangel said:


> I have yet to find a comfortable western saddle, one that fits me. Course I wasn't looking, I just hopped on anyway.


 
It really is interesting how we're just made to like different things.....

I've never gotten into an English saddle without feeling that something was missing! :lol: Gotta have a nice big swell and a horn or it ain't all there.... :wink:

Humans are indeed diverse: I still can't believe my father-in-law just LOVED onions..... I'd just as soon eat a bowl of mud. :?

Hey, as long as horses are involved, it's all good! The relationship/bond with a good horse is the jewel at the center of all of this....


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Radiowaves said:


> Hey, as long as horses are involved, it's all good! The relationship/bond with a good horse is the jewel at the center of all of this....


Yeah  I'll drink to that

But eventually I want to get into Western. I'll find the right saddle that works for my horse and I! I'm on a mission, but it doesn't start for another handful of years haha


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## Radiowaves (Jul 27, 2010)

Skyseternalangel said:


> Yeah  I'll drink to that
> 
> But eventually I want to get into Western. I'll find the right saddle that works for my horse and I! I'm on a mission, but it doesn't start for another handful of years haha


 
Roger that!

And, since my wife has both Western and English gear, sooner or later I want to take a spin in one of her English saddles (been a really long time since I've been in one)..... Don't think I want to give up my shank bit and curb strap, though. :shock:


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

I'm expecting pictures! Haha, it'll feel a lot different but who knows, you may like it


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

caseymyhorserocks said:


> The western saddle just makes me feel like I am sitting on a block of wood with someone shaking it.


That's what my first canter on a western pleasure QH was like. And yes, this was a good, show winning one.

Hardly a pleasure to ride. I'll stick to my eventing-trained QH.


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## Radiowaves (Jul 27, 2010)

Skyseternalangel said:


> I'm expecting pictures! Haha, it'll feel a lot different but who knows, you may like it


 
Oh, I have no doubt that there will be pictures....  One of these days....


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## DingDong (Feb 20, 2012)

Wow. I learned so much about Western vs English by reading these 183 posts. Thank you very much for divulging so much useful information. My favorite posts were the ones comparing photos, they made me laugh! I can make my mind up about which riding style much more easily now.


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## lilbit11011 (Apr 15, 2010)

I ride Western and love it. But have seriously thought of maybe picking up some English riding if I can find a good instructor as I have no clue beyond western riding. So, it would be a close call for me to choose one.


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## freia (Nov 3, 2011)

I think it has a lot to do with what you're used to. We're comfortable with what we know. I started riding English when I was 4. I rode in a western saddle for the first time when I was 35. Never again. Muscle memory, posture, everything out the window. Being used to feeling every muscle of my horse tense or relax, I felt completely separated from the horse in the Western. The horn was in the way of my hands, and I was sure that it was going to impale me if the horse stumbled or anything. I had to move my leg much more to be able to leg-cue. I basically felt like I was sitting up on a throne on top of the horse somewhere. Queen Victoria surveying her coffee plantation from the back of her elephant. Not having constant contact with the mouth also un-nerves me. I kept wondering what was going on up there.
I have a friend who's always ridden Western try my CC English saddle, and she felt utterly naked, exposed, and unbalanced. We all have our comfort-zone.
I do really like a lot of the lighter endurance saddles. They still give the close contact with the horse, but give a little more support and comfort.


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## lilbit11011 (Apr 15, 2010)

freia said:


> I think it has a lot to do with what you're used to. We're comfortable with what we know. I started riding English when I was 4. I rode in a western saddle for the first time when I was 35. Never again. Muscle memory, posture, everything out the window. Being used to feeling every muscle of my horse tense or relax, I felt completely separated from the horse in the Western. The horn was in the way of my hands, and I was sure that it was going to impale me if the horse stumbled or anything. I had to move my leg much more to be able to leg-cue. I basically felt like I was sitting up on a throne on top of the horse somewhere. Queen Victoria surveying her coffee plantation from the back of her elephant. Not having constant contact with the mouth also un-nerves me. I kept wondering what was going on up there.
> I have a friend who's always ridden Western try my CC English saddle, and she felt utterly naked, exposed, and unbalanced. We all have our comfort-zone.
> I do really like a lot of the lighter endurance saddles. They still give the close contact with the horse, but give a little more support and comfort.




Well said


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## Radiowaves (Jul 27, 2010)

freia said:


> I think it has a lot to do with what you're used to. We're comfortable with what we know. I started riding English when I was 4. I rode in a western saddle for the first time when I was 35. Never again. Muscle memory, posture, everything out the window. Being used to feeling every muscle of my horse tense or relax, I felt completely separated from the horse in the Western. The horn was in the way of my hands, and I was sure that it was going to impale me if the horse stumbled or anything. I had to move my leg much more to be able to leg-cue. I basically felt like I was sitting up on a throne on top of the horse somewhere. Queen Victoria surveying her coffee plantation from the back of her elephant. Not having constant contact with the mouth also un-nerves me. I kept wondering what was going on up there.
> I have a friend who's always ridden Western try my CC English saddle, and she felt utterly naked, exposed, and unbalanced. We all have our comfort-zone.
> I do really like a lot of the lighter endurance saddles. They still give the close contact with the horse, but give a little more support and comfort.


That's all so interesting!

One of the truly interesting things about humans is how different we can be.... ;-)

I think you're right that there's a strong component of "what we're used to" in there but I can tell you that there is also a good amount of just being a better fit for one style or the other.

The first saddle I ever had (when I was 10 years old and starting out) was a loaner English saddle and I was thankful to have it. But, as soon as I got an opportunity to get my own saddle, I got a western saddle and never looked back. I liked it so much better right from the first time I ever used it.

My wife rides both styles and enjoys both immensely. I'm fine riding in whatever kind of saddle that I have to use at the time, but I sure prefer a western one.

But then, my wife loves onions and I'd just about as soon eat a bowl of dirt seasoned with metal shavings.... <laughing>

Given that humans are all made from a common basic design and out of the same materials, we sure do possess some interesting differences! And western vs English is just one of 'em....


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## BarrelChick1848 (Dec 16, 2011)

I ride both, but I prefer western any day.


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## Country Woman (Dec 14, 2011)

I ride both but prefer Western


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## gingerscout (Jan 18, 2012)

I ride neither.. wait what is a couch considered.. western or english.. maybe the ottoman instead... lol


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## amp23 (Jan 6, 2011)

I have not read all 19 pages of this thread, but I'll post about my riding. I started off riding western or bareback in middle school, only messed around english a few times but never could get the hang of it. Last summer, right after graduating high school, I moved Hunter to an english barn and switched soon afterwards, and I've gotten into jumping so I doubt I'd switch back anytime soon. Once I found a saddle I was comfortable in, the transition was easy. I rode in an endurance saddle for a few months, and now ride in a more forward jumping saddle and have gained better balance. The only time I ride western now is at my job doing trail rides, and I would not want to do that english all day every day. I think it just depends on what you're doing as to which disciple you like more.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

amp23 said:


> The only time I ride western now is at my job doing trail rides, and I would not want to do that english all day every day.


Try it in a dressage saddle with the stirrups set the same length as your western saddle and I bet you'll sing a different tune. :wink:


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## amp23 (Jan 6, 2011)

mildot said:


> Try it in a dressage saddle with the stirrups set the same length as your western saddle and I bet you'll sing a different tune. :wink:


Eh, possibly. But I like having the horn to grab if a horse decides he does not like the waves crashing towards him, or my horse tries to kick another or something...


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## BoldComic (Feb 26, 2012)

I ride in an Aussie saddle and love it. I have ridden western but don't like it after my my Aussie. I would LOVE to learn to ride english.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

amp23 said:


> Eh, possibly. But I like having the horn to grab if a horse decides he does not like the waves crashing towards him, or my horse tries to kick another or something...


They make grab straps for English saddles. :thumbsup:


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## amp23 (Jan 6, 2011)

I know, but only at work am I more comfortable in over 3 hours in a saddle in one day on less predictable horses... None of the horses I work with are English horses except for 2 anyway, which are rented out more than not. On horses I ride very often at my barn, I couldn't imagine riding them western and ending up on the horn!


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## st0rmys3as (Feb 27, 2012)

English. I've never had the chance to ride Western as it's not that common where I live, I've only know a couple of people who have ever properly ridden Western. It would be fun to try but I have a feeling I'll always favour and primarily ride English.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

One of these days I'll buy a Spanish or Portuguese saddle and ride what the original vaqueros ride in.


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## Opus (Jan 3, 2011)

Definitely English. I'd rode in western saddles growing up, and got my first taste of English when I signed up for college classes (forward seat hunter equitation). It felt really awkward at first, especially with no horn to grab onto. But now, it feels incredibly natural.

That's not to say I would never take western lessons at some point (probably reining), but for now, I love riding hunter equitation -- even if I'm on the fence about dressage ...


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