# So I just watched the Parelli Level One DVD...



## CharliGirl (Nov 16, 2009)

As they state in the video, the stick is meant to be an extension of your arm. My gelding, Scotch, had to become sensitized to the stick at first. As you slowly work up the "phases of friendly firmness," your horse has the opportunity to respond at lower levels of stimulation with the stick. Wacking or tapping with the stick is the consequence--similar to what a dominant horse would do to get a submissive horse to move (eventually lunge or bite if the submissive horse didn't heed the warnings).

The stick isn't just used for directing, either. You use the friendly game all the time with it--toss the rope all over the body, rub them with the stick, etc. None of my horses fear the stick because they pay attention to my body language--I'm not going to run up and wack them without giving them the opportunity to comply at a lower phase of firmness. They also are perfectly comfortable when I give them a good scratch with the stick. 

It's all about who is holding the stick and how they are using it...


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

My horses are the exact same way with the whip - it's never been used to hurt or frighten them, only to direct them.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Interesting thread! I'll be following it because I'm curious too. My whip is an extension of my arm and never used to hurt or punish them -- I have never understood how a carrot stick is anything new.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

First, kudos for getting through it! I kept falling asleep.:?

Anyway, I have watched the first Parelli also, as well as some of the other NH people. They all have some very valid points, as well as some techniques that work. I always find it helpful to have more ideas and techniques, and don't think any single person has ALL the answers. More tools and ideas are always helpful until we find what works that day, on that issue with that horse.


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## Missdv (Nov 4, 2010)

I have also wondered about this training. I was following the Clinton Anderson training and found that his Handy Stick aka Carrot Stick was great for desensitizing but when I whack my arab mare with it or try to lunge for respect she turns on me. I can disengage her hind quarters with my thumb, but the stick makes her mad at me for whacking her. I did get some training aspects from this, though and my friend swears by it. My girl did much better under Gawanni Pony Boy training, she follows me everywhere, now that, she respond to, no sticks or gimmicks just bonding and letting her know what I want, I use my body language, hands and ropes, Simple. It, I guess depends on the horse, and my girl won't have it. You want natural go Native, wether eastern or american, I find great things in both, watch Ali Al-Ameri (you tube)he's awesome.


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## spirithorse8 (Jun 30, 2010)

Gimmicks!

You do not need an arm extension.:lol:

What is needed is a change in how you present yourself.
In other words, do you present _trust and respect_ of the horse, or do you present an attitude of 'I'm superior to you [horse].

I have had many horses display their dominance only to find out that I am not impressed. Recently I had a Fresian stallion try and push me with his chest, I did not budge and as a result he heeded to me.

In fact, I have seen so many people whom have become _dependent_ upon the usage of extra 'tools' that they cannot seem to accomplish tasks without the presence of said tool.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

spirithorse8 said:


> Gimmicks!
> 
> You do not need an arm extension.:lol:
> 
> ...


While I agree with some of what you say, generally, however, something about 1200lbs (I am guestimating here) against 200 just doesn't sound quite right to me.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

^

Very true - I've stood my ground to a horse before, but I've also been hurt before by standing ground and losing. In the end, they CAN move you, it's a matter of the mental battle and not the physical one. And if you can't get through to them mentally, you're going to find yourself pretty sore pretty fast.

I think I was just very surprised to see the horse so "worked up". He started out unafraid of the stick, and near the end when he's "combing" him towards him, the horse sees him lift the stick and immediately flings his head and tries to go backwards.

Very interesting, I just don't see how it's any different from what MOST of us do anyway, minus the thousands of dollars worth of equipment and movies. :-|


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## spirithorse8 (Jun 30, 2010)

Did not say anything about leaving physical out. In this case as he stepped into me, I stepped into him and he got the point.
One must always be prepared to move out of the way without giving ground. Attitude carries alot of weight with horses....


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## darkwillow (Apr 12, 2009)

If you want, check out Carlos Tabernaberri and Whispering Acres (i think that's it). I could never really understand Parelli's way, but i got what Carlos was saying.


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## SaddlebredGrl (Oct 8, 2009)

I did parelli with my horse for a little while and went to two of his demos here in KC. I love Linda. I really think they have some good points, but i don't think that it's good for all horses. I did it for about a year with my horse and actually got him to flat foot walk which in the three years i'd been working with him couldn't acomplish. He is terrified of whips after being abused with them when younger. So i was like right, you want me to do what with this carrot stick??? He has no problem on the ground with the carrot stick, in saddle different story.

Do you know what video you watched? At the clinics we watched it was mostly linda doing the demo, and pat would just talk... 

I did an experiement with my horse with the whip and carrot stick, and someone was making fun of me for using the carrot stick, and this was after a year of work, and showed them what i was doing than when and got a whip and tried to do the same stuff, and my horse was very uneasy and upset by me trying to use the whip. They still didn't understand, but i thought he would be ok with the whip after all that, but he wasn't. 

I mean if i had a younger horse or starting a horse i would probably use parelli to just get them comfortable and stuff i dunno. My horse seems a lot calmer and we have a totally different bond. So i'm kind of in the middle.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

The friend who lent me the DVD (it's the Level One DVD from the series) came out and helped me tonight because I was having trouble understanding some things, and also I CAN understand the need for a carrot stick, my whip simply didn't work right now - too long and too flexible to mimic the movements. It's tricky when you're trying to remember how to do something exactly!

It was interesting! I definitely want to try a little more of it with my horses, just for something to do on the ground. My friend has the carrot stick so I don't have to invest any money, so why not? Jynxy's ground manners have been pretty rough since I got her because you can practically beat her and she won't respond, so I'm hoping the escalation of force will help. She seemed to slightly grasp it tonight! Still a little unsure, but I feel I can't properly judge it without having tried it, so I'm going to give it a shot!


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

Honestly if your horse is afraid of your tools (previously abused with them or not), you aren't spending enough time in the desensitization arena...a horse that works with a handystick, will easily be able to work with a whip and vice versa...it just may mean a bit more "homework" for you. Some horses are just more reactive too, to certain things, so that does not mean he's been abused. 

In regard to the OP, I haven't watched any of his full length vids, but some of the ones I have seen seem to lend to what you are talking about...I think sometimes it's the horse trying to figure it out, and other times it may be that he does too much sensitizing and not enough desensitizing. You HAVE to balance the two, although some horses will need more in either dept. But no, I don't think a horse should be visually 'fearful' of the tools, or the method one is using. And I don't really think ANY one trainer has the answer for every horse...although I would personally send a problem horse to Clinton Anderson over most 'well known' trainers, as I have seen him in person so many times, and the horses are 180 degree turn around different by the end of the time he has with them. 

I do think Parelli is good for more of the 'green' people out there, but I find his methods a bit confusing at times. I had a friend one time, try to do his 'circle' game with a horse I had at the time...now this horse would go with a point, and stop and turn with a subtle change in body position...when she did that, he was fine, but I could clearly see his confusion, when she just stood there, passing the lead behind her back, and as he was going around and when he was behind her, she would pull the line in...he was like "what?". He was used to giving his handler "two eyes", and she wasn't in a position to allow him to do that, so he kept going, and they both got flustered!


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I think that's the only problem I have with some of the methodology, is that it involves either re-training your horse from things like lunging or training them a particular way to begin with. My horses have been drilled on a lunge that whoa means stop where you are, do not turn and look at me and do not walk over to me. So now I have to question if I want to go this Parelli route and completely re-school my horses? Though Jynx doesn't lunge for crap anyway, so I was hoping this would soften her up and get her listening more.

I think what bugs me is that I like the IDEA of Parelli, I like the exercises, but for example, cruising their website I noted it says "without force or punishment." Well, that's a load of hogwash! Yes you're using escalation, but that means if you're asking for a horse to back up by tapping it with your carrot stick, you escalate to the point of HITTING them with it until they submit to the pressure. How is that NOT force? You can't technically FORCE a 1200lb animal to do anything it doesn't want to do. I just don't understand why they have to pretend this NH stuff is something it isn't - boasting about a "willing" partner. They're not willing, they LEARN to be willing, just like in any other training method. If a horse wasn't willing to be ridden, it wouldn't be ridden!

So I think I've just come to realize that I like the Parelli WAY, I just dislike the Parelli attitude that somehow whacking your horse with a stick until he listens is ANY different then a dozen other non-NH methods out there.


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

I hear you...I was just reading a thing on the Road to the Horse website, and it actually coins Parelli as the 'coiner' of the NH "thing"...um...no, there were MANY more before him! Hahahaha! 

I actually prefer teaching a horse to turn and give me two eyes when lunging, or round penning...it's a 'respect' thing, and gives me more 'power' over the direction change, or lack of, because he's looking at me, and can see my signals clearly, and because he's not facing 'foward' there is no chance of him simply running the lead rope through my hands to get away. I don't have to shift my own position other than very slightly to change from driveline to infront of it, and changing lead hands, and pointing in the new direction. 

I have never had a horse "run me over" because of the way that I train then to turn into the circle, but again, I think that's because they have been taught to respect my space before we get to lunging. Until the horse will back willingly out of your space and stay there, he shouldn't be lunging, because that's just asking him to come in and take you down!


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## Snookeys (Sep 23, 2010)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> I can do virtually everything he did with that horse with my own horses.
> *
> *


Isn't that the point?

I don't really "do" Parelli, but I have access to the online video-vault thing and I've watched several of the videos. I liked and understood what I saw, even though it was only "previews" (which might be the reason I liked it).

My farrier and I discussed Parelli one day when he was trimming up a horse's hooves. He got so heated talking about him and he set his rasp down, stood up, and was waving his arms (poor mare didn't appreciate that too much). He said Parelli just takes TOO long to do things with a horse that shouldn't be so difficult. Now my farrier is a good trainer and has turned several horses into well-trained ones. But I think he's looking at it from the perspective of someone who is time-limited... He says "30 days to make a good horse, 60 days to make a great horse." Eh, can't say I agree with that, but he IS a pretty good trainer, so...

Anyway - I am not time limited with my horse, and I find doing little Parelli things to be fun. Sure, it took me a whole day to teach him to do something small, but it was fun for me (and probably the horse too). I also like using the carrot stick because it's not as flimsy as a buggy whip. I use a rope halter too, but that's personal preference (all these Parelli things belong to a friend of mine).


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

*nods*

mom2pride - for sure, everyone teaches different! I've always lunged in a bridle, so a change of direction involves me having to gather my rope and walk to my horse to switch the line, so I guess that's why I always trained them to stand motionless after whoa? For change of direction on a halter, I gather my line, give a slight tug which is their cue to turn and face me for further direction. I was taught how to lunge the "pony club" way, long before I knew ANYTHING about NH or respect, it was always just a tool for exercise!

Snookeys - See and this is the only reason I'm giving it a try. My Arab mare is off for the winter with a leg injury, so I was hoping to do some groundwork with her as her manners have gone to hell with the recent layups. My friend is into it, so I figured why not give it a try! My 3 year old filly could definitely use the help on her ground manners as well. But yeah, it's SUPER confusing to learn things that halfway through I go "Oh this? We already sort of do this, just different." Like, my friend was surprised when we breezed through the Friendly Game and the Porcupine Game but being touched all over and giving to pressure are the FIRST components of my training program! But trying to remember where to hold the rope and how to hold the stick is like "GAH, WHY DON'T I JUST SAY OVER AND POKE HER AND SHE DOES THE SAME THING!!!!" :lol: I kept dropping the stick and getting tangled in that rope, I swear it's more about ME learning then the horse!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I think what is important in ground work is HOW horse does things, not what he does. Does he back up really lifting his feet, soft through his body and watching for the next cue? or does he drag his front feet and move with resistance.? Which kind of backup would you like to RIDE?

Does your horse move forward in the round pen promptly when you signal forward, and is he really leaping energetically into forward? or is he just moveing the tiniest bit forward , ears pinned and still thinking NO.? Which kind of forward do you want to ride when you are in the saddle?
When you lunge him and you ask him to stop, does he whip into a boardy stop and completely lose all impulsion and just "fall" out? Or does he transtion downward through a step of trot, then a step of walk and come to a balanced , calm stop? Which sort of stop do you want to ride?
You shoulod lunge for the horse that you want to ride. That means that having a set program may or may not help you because you might be dealing with different problems each day, depending on where your horse is mentally. That's what I find to be the problem with Parelli, it isn't flexible for that sort of need to be flexible. And, it isn't about getting him to do each "game", It's about HOW he is feeling when he does these things. Is that the kind of mind of the horse you want to be mounted on?


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## SaddlebredGrl (Oct 8, 2009)

Actually mom2pride i've spent the last 3 years working with my horse with the whip, and i guess is should say riding crop, because the lung whip he has no problems with. I spent a year with a parelli certified instructor trying to get him over this fear. I myself have never hit, tapped, came at him nothing with a riding crop. My horse for a saddlebred is pretty bomb proof, except the whip. Which i will explain why when i first bought him a whip was suggested was because he liked to stop in the middle of the rail while riding and not go anywhere. So i usually could just turn him, or back him to get him going forward again, well someone else got on him and he did it and they laced him across the butt, and he went straight up in the air, and the people told me i had to buy him or they were sending him to auction. 

I have watched all the old level 1 and level 2 videos, and i really think that you can't just watch the video and go out and try to do the things in the video. I board at a parelli/NH barn and it actually drives me crazy. I love my friends that do NH, but they think that is the only way to train a horse. I actually got reemed inside and out the other day by a non-boarder, who does NH for using draw reins on my horse. I used to love taking NH lessons, but my horse is so high strung we would be in a lesson for 20 mins and have to get off. So i took lessons with my friends horse and we had a blast!! I also got banned from trail rides w/same woman that reemed me because i didn't play all 7 games with my horse before i got on him. UHHH... he is 19 and i can tell when i need to "circle game" him and when i don't.

MacabreMikolaj you can buy super cheap "carrot sticks" and rope halters if you decided this is something you really like. It's good you have someone to help you, cause there are a ton of different ways to ask your horse to do something, and i found it nice that i had that cause like the new parelli way wouldn't work, but the old way to ask did.


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

That your horse is 19 says alot...while they can still learn new things, it can take a lot longer...but if you don't need it, then I would just be content that you can get him to respond with the longer whip and stick and string...a crop is only usually for undersaddle anyway, so I guess it just doesn't matter, because if he has "go" you have no need for it!

And it's kind of funny because I tend to get "funny looks" around here because I USE NH type methods...Lol! But no one reems me out, my mare and I just get funny looks; seems ground work and respect from the ground up isn't "common place" in my neighborhood!


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## SaddlebredGrl (Oct 8, 2009)

I actually started working with him with the whip when he was 13 when i bought him... I talked to linda parelli and she said to play with him with the whip on the ground like it was the carrot stick and than work with him in the saddle. Well never got past the ground so i gave up. I tried riding him with my carrot stick, and that was a big no no too. Which makes me sad cause all the people at my barn play tag with their horses and i have to sit out cause anyone came at my horse with a carrot stick he would have a heart attack ha ha. For him the whip wasn't just to get him to go forward, he used to pull on me all the time, so their thought was everytime he pulled would be to tap him with it, but we never got to that point. He doesn't pull anymore, and if he does i just wear blunt spurs and tap him and he stops.

I used to give one girl the funniest look at my barn before i knew what NH was because she looked like a chicken and her horse looked so confused. I later found out the chicken was to ask you horse to back off you when you were leading them!!!!


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## Ladytrails (Jul 28, 2010)

I couldn't figure out how the Parelli things worked when my husband's horse (a rescue) was being started by a Parelli trainer in our area. I knew how to lunge (the old way) but this horse would not go on the circle. I had my husband show me what he was doing and it was all about body language. He would **look** at a point on the horse's body to have him go forward, another point was "stop and give me two eyes" and so forth. Once that lightbulb went on in my head, now I see it in a lot of the NH trainer videos. Anderson, Lyons and Chris Cox to name 3 all use their body language and eyes to tell the horse what they want, in addition to using the lead rope or stick & string. In the more recent years as I'm watching some of these on TV, it seems that they are exaggerating the body language so that **we** get it -- it was too subtle in the earlier days for some of us to catch on to it. To me, it looked like a graceful dance but I didn't know the moves...

It's an interesting debate as to whether/how much this NH is using force compared to the other training methods. I think in my experience, the horses are so relieved to **know** for sure what we want, from the release of pressure and so forth, and then seem happier to do what we ask ... maybe because they know they will avoid the escalation of pressure?


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## spirithorse8 (Jun 30, 2010)

Ladytrails said:


> --- now I see it in a lot of the NH trainer videos. Anderson, Lyons and Chris Cox to name 3 all use their body language and eyes to tell the horse what they want, in addition to using the lead rope or stick & string. In the more recent years as I'm watching some of these on TV, it seems that they are exaggerating the body language so that **we** get it -- it was too subtle in the earlier days for some of us to catch on to it. To me, it looked like a graceful dance but I didn't know the moves...


It is not what you think, you must see the whole picture. These clinicians subjugate the horses, these horse are manipulated into a state of learned helplessness....in other words, using the gimmicks the clinicians 'force' the horses to comply...............I communicate with the horses without whips/carrot sticks, ropes or any other gimmicks, including 'human' body language...yes it is human not horse.......


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

I found a trainer who has copies of the DVD's that she sends to me to work on with Molly, and the three I have now are the basis for Parelli; the 7 games, "horsonalities", and an intro one. These have gotten me far with her and I'm ready to send them back for the next DVD, hopefully the Level 1, and see if it seems a good thing to persue.

So far I don't feel like it's done anything for her trust in me. She listens, she does all the games without a fuss, we're working on the Stick2Me thing, but it's not trust I'm seeing, just training. Also, it's not explained enough in the video what to do for certain problems. Molly doesn't do the yo-yo game too well because she doesn't "get" the concept of backing away from me with a wiggle of the rope. I always have to step into her space to get her to back, and we've been working at this for months with no change.

I really don't think Parelli is for every horse. My 23-yr old gelding won't lunge to save his life, or move away from his handler, for anything. And feel is the basis for Parelli.


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## Tahlia (Aug 30, 2010)

i have been following the pat parelli system and my horse she is only 4 and she follows me like a dog...


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

spirithorse8 said:


> It is not what you think, you must see the whole picture. These clinicians subjugate the horses, these horse are manipulated into a state of learned helplessness....in other words, using the gimmicks the clinicians 'force' the horses to comply...............I communicate with the horses without whips/carrot sticks, ropes or any other gimmicks, including 'human' body language...yes it is human not horse...​


 I'm confused. You appear to have a halter and lead on the horse in your avatar. Do you use standard equipment or don't you?


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

mom2pride said:


> I'm confused. You appear to have a halter and lead on the horse in your avatar. Do you use standard equipment or don't you?


I was about to ask the same thing.  

Bits, saddles, etc. are also unnatural gimmicks (to cue the horse). So what about those?

I'm not bashing here, I'm really curious. Any piece of equipment is a gimmick (in horse's mind), so I don't quite get the original statement. Or you are talking only about "fancy" equipment sold for $$$?


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> I was about to ask the same thing.
> 
> Bits, saddles, etc. are also unnatural gimmicks (to cue the horse). So what about those?
> 
> I'm not bashing here, I'm really curious. Any piece of equipment is a gimmick (in horse's mind), so I don't quite get the original statement. Or you are talking only about "fancy" equipment sold for $$$?


Yes, like the Spirit bridle.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

I am really sorry to be coming across as aggressive here spirithorse8 but for all the information you are giving about 'your' training method I have come to the conclusion that you vaporize yourself into the ether, enter the horses ear and come out it's bum, transcending all earthly forms. A wonderful thought but a little impractical for the rest of us mere mortals who are not as high up the spiritual plain as you apparently are.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

kiwigirl said:


> I am really sorry to be coming across as aggressive here spirithorse8 but for all the information you are giving about 'your' training method I have come to the conclusion that you vaporize yourself into the ether, enter the horses ear and come out it's bum, transcending all earthly forms. A wonderful thought but a little impractical for the rest of us mere mortals who are not as high up the spiritual plain as you apparently are.


:rofl::rofl::rofl:

MM, he has been around enough horses in his life and has the capability to be an amazing horseman. I've never seen any of his DVDs but what I have seen on RFD, he seems to have some sound ideas (that are more common sense than anything but that's beside the point). I think if he would go back to his mentality that he had when he first got started before all the "what's the next new gimmick" thing, he would have much more to teach and many more willing to listen.

I also use a ton of what could be called NH methods but when I was growing up, it was just called good horsemanship. Though I still use what could probably be called traditional methods too. I can live without love and loyalty in my horses, but I _will_ have respect if it's the last thing I do.

:lol: I'm not entirely sure where I was going with all that but you have a good enough head on your shoulders to take what is useful and trash the rest without drinking the kook-aid.

Oh, I also wanted to mention that I actually like the idea of the horse stopping and not facing up on the lunge line when you tell them whoa. I have had a couple of horses try to buck right over the top of me (and one that succeeded) because their first instinct was "face up and go to the human". I, personally, wouldn't train that out of your horses.


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## SaddlebredGrl (Oct 8, 2009)

Wow i just looked up a spirit bridle!!! Really?? I'm sorry but i could probably rig something like that up with what i have at home! Not that i would use that, sorry if anyone does, but really? Wouldn't that like rub the botton of their chin? I mean if you just started out with it would they know what to do? Just curious.


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## SaddlebredGrl (Oct 8, 2009)

Ok i had to find a video of someone using this "spirit bridle" and too me it looked like she was really having to hold the horse. Although according to the video it was only the second time in the bridle the horse looked a bit fussy and her hands for the canter i dunno i think my horse as good as he is would have just been like oh you can't stop me now!!!


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## Ladytrails (Jul 28, 2010)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> My horses have been drilled on a lunge that whoa means stop where you are, do not turn and look at me and do not walk over to me. So now I have to question if I want to go this Parelli route and completely re-school my horses?


Mine are destined to both ride and drive. I want them to stop wherever they are because 'two eyes" doesn't work when the horse it hitched to a cart. My trainer took my 5 year old for under-saddle work and worked with lunging with the two-eyes method, so I've had to work on re-training him to stop in place. Not easy. However, I found that when he's hitched he will still whoa in place and stand pretty well. Once he got tangled up when hitched and at my "whoa" he froze in the middle of a step. We untangled, replaced the lines, checked the harness, got the cart positioned properly, and said "walk on". He gave a big sigh of relief and calmly stepped out. Could have been a disaster but he knew what "whoa" meant from the years of ground work. 

So, MM, don't retrain if the response you're getting is the one you want! You're the one who's going to be riding Jynx, not Parelli!


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## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

Ok so a spirit bridle, reins and martingale are $350. Add this to the custom saddle with no tree for almost $1500. Add the DVD set I looked into for another $1200 to teach me NH. Hmmm let me see here the total so far is $3,050. Oh and that nice rope halter that is only available in one place for another 60 bucks I think it was. Plus all the supplements, herbs, powder, potions and pills that came highly recommended with my horse. Which if I bought all that stuff would set me back a good $400 a month. WOW do they really sock people for this much cash??????? 
Every single day!
NH IMHO is nothing more than common sense. My little doll knows he can run rough shod over bf and son. He knows (even on crutches) that he can't bully me anymore. Yes, he got whacked with a crutch on his butt. :-xDon't step on me and I won't whack you. Common sense. Don't run over me while gettin your feet done and I won't pop your chest. Common sense. Don't try to run me down :shock: when I am crutching out to feed you in the mud and goop and I won't smack ya with a lead rope. Common sense. Leave off trying to use me as a scratching post and I'll let you stay close and get lovin. Common sense. Did I mention it is horse sense and common sense...same difference LOL
Now my guy costs me enough without all the expensive doo-dads. I can't imagine spending more than I do with upkeep, vet checks, trims (shoes if he needs them when the new guy FINALLY comes) and all the other assorted (oops son lost a hoof pick) costs. 
I guess if you got that kind of money to put into some NH trainers pocket..well have fun with the games of round and round.:wink:
Now having said that, yeah I can see where some of this would work great, hell some of it I use daily, I just can't see being stuck into ONE way of doing it. 
Horses and snowflakes, no 2 alike. hmm my new sig I think LOL


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