# Hunter Seat to Saddle Seat - I Don't Think So!



## Diamond Sutcliff

So, I've been riding for ten years. I stopped taking lessons for three, and now I'm getting them again. Today was my first day. I had a bit of a problem, though. 

When I got on the horse, my new instructor told me that they only taught in a "saddle seat." I was never told there was a difference (I felt really stupid), and I've been riding for ten years. 

In this "saddle seat" position, I was told to "keep my hands high." My hands were practically a level with my breasts. It felt very unnatural and I felt as though I had little to no control over the horse. I was also told to keep my legs away from the horse's sides. 

I went ten years being told to keep my hands down and my legs close. I feel like I may as well start Western riding, since there seems to be SO many new things. It's like a whole new way of riding. 

My mom signed me up for four lessons, just to test out the place. I know I need to give it a try, but if I decide to stay, I'm afraid I'll have to give up and relearn how to ride "saddle seat." 

Any help would be appreciated.


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## BeachinIt

Sorry, I can't offer much help, except to say a friend is in a very similar situation. I would say just go with the four lessons to try it out. If It's not for you, are there other barns in the area you could try? 

I for one couldn't give up jumping =D
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alexischristina

Saddleseat is a whole discipline in itself. Is that what you're interested in riding / showing? Or were you trying to get back into English / hunt seat riding?


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## heymckate

Saddleseat is a very different style of riding than hunt seat--it is intended to show off a horse's movement, and it's definitely flashy. It originated in the U.S. when people would go out riding and they wanted to show off their flashy horses. Hunt seat originated from, obviously, the hunt field. In saddleseat, the rider holds her hands high, does not lean forward, and you are generally a bit behind the horse's movements. I'm sure you noticed the cut back saddle and how it was positioned differently than another English saddle would be.

Try saddleseat out for those four lessons. I took several saddleseat lessons about a year and a half ago just to say I did it. And it was a lot of fun to try out a new style of riding. If you don't like it still, then go find another barn that does hunt seat.


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## Diamond Sutcliff

heymckate said:


> Saddleseat is a very different style of riding than hunt seat--it is intended to show off a horse's movement, and it's definitely flashy. It originated in the U.S. when people would go out riding and they wanted to show off their flashy horses. Hunt seat originated from, obviously, the hunt field. In saddleseat, the rider holds her hands high, does not lean forward, and you are generally a bit behind the horse's movements. I'm sure you noticed the cut back saddle and how it was positioned differently than another English saddle would be.
> 
> Try saddleseat out for those four lessons. I took several saddleseat lessons about a year and a half ago just to say I did it. And it was a lot of fun to try out a new style of riding. If you don't like it still, then go find another barn that does hunt seat.


Thank you for the history - that was very helpful! I found it very difficult to keep my hands up. 

I dropped the reins and lost control of the horse when he tripped in the canter, which was something that has never happened to me before. Losing control and dropping the reins, not cantering or tripping (or both at the same time), I mean. The horse practically ripped the reins from my hands when he tripped. I'm not sure if that happened because my hands were so high and his head went so low.

Anyway, I did notice how far back the saddle was. When I compare it to the hunt seat, it seems like the hunt seat is on his neck! What a difference a few inches can make. 

I'll definitely give all four lessons a try. I think, at this point, the only saddle I haven't tried is a dressage saddle. I've been in Western, hunt, racing, and saddle. Is that just about right?? The dressage, when I think about it, looks just like a saddle seat. 

A good rider always accommodates to her horse, tack, and surroundings. If I "can't deal with" a saddle seat, then what kid of rider would I be??

Thank you so much for everything!!!


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## Diamond Sutcliff

alexischristina said:


> Saddleseat is a whole discipline in itself. Is that what you're interested in riding / showing? Or were you trying to get back into English / hunt seat riding?


I wasn't aware of any difference, to be honest. Now that I know, I would love to get back into hunt seat. 

I'm not much of a shower. Maybe a few local shows with small children! Haha! 

But thank you so much for the information!


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## Diamond Sutcliff

BeachinIt said:


> Sorry, I can't offer much help, except to say a friend is in a very similar situation. I would say just go with the four lessons to try it out. If It's not for you, are there other barns in the area you could try?
> 
> I for one couldn't give up jumping =D
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I'm going to try the four lessons. Even if I don't like it, I an now say I have had the experience. 

There are always other barns. I'll probably stay with this one for driving, though. I know they offer that, and I haven't seen any others that offer it. But I'll look around for hunt seat, and know I know to ask!!!

And... Excuse me? Give up jumping!!! I don't show, but I love to jump! I could never!


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## boots

I hope your enjoy trying the Saddleseat riding even if you don't stay with it. 

Cripes, I started with hunters and jumpers, went to galloping TBs, ranched for a couple decades (still jumped, though), rode ASBs in Saddleseat for a year in SC, and am now back ranching with some polo thrown in (still jumping).

It's all horses and all fun!

I can sympathize on the way you have to hold your hands, though. First lesson I'm holding my hands nice and low, instructor tells me to hold them "like you're reading a book." I answer, "I'm old and getting more farsighted! This IS where I have to hold a book." Made her laugh, but she didn't buy my excuse.

Saddleseat is great for your upper legs and low back. You have to have some good muscle and control in those areas especially to ride it well.


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## upnover

Glad you're going to stick it out for the few weeks! I think it's always nice to dabble in a few disciplines for fun. 

Funny though, I had had a student who grew up riding saddleseat take lessons from me (huntseat) because he wanted to learn to jump. I was always telling him to lower his hands and bring his legs back!  He ended up being a very good little rider and I was sad when he moved.


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## verona1016

Diamond Sutcliff said:


> I'll definitely give all four lessons a try. I think, at this point, the only saddle I haven't tried is a dressage saddle. I've been in Western, hunt, racing, and saddle. Is that just about right?? The dressage, when I think about it, looks just like a saddle seat.


Not even close 

Saddle seat puts you very much into a "chair seat" with your legs out in front of you. The saddle itself sits you far back on the horse's back and is usually pretty flat. Dressage is all about achieving a long leg with your heel, hip and ear all aligned in a vertical line- if you took the horse out from under the rider, she should be able to balance in that same position- not fall over backwards or forwards. The saddles have deep seats, often with various padded blocks to keep the legs in position.

Saddle seat:









Dressage:


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## equitate

SS should not put you in a chair seat (thighs high/etc), in ALL seats (by the usef rules...) ear/shoulder/hip/heel should be in alignment, and there should always be a straight line from elbow to horses mouth. Yes, the hips should be more open, which almost makes for a lower leg too stretched/calves almost off. It should NOT be about raising the hands however (there is a straight line but horses are (articially) high), but not resting them too low either. Affectations of style (over doing it are everywhere).

The difference is that one is (almost) behind the motion in ss, with it in dressage, slightly in front of it in h/j (because of moving at speed and over fences).

Least we all forget people like Bill Steinkraus/Wofford/etc rode ss before they rode huntseat/jumpers/evented!

Keep the thumb onto the forefinger to keep a connection and prevent dropping the rein. Erect posture will help prevent stumbling/loss of balance/etc.


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## Diamond Sutcliff

verona1016 said:


> Not even close
> 
> Saddle seat puts you very much into a "chair seat" with your legs out in front of you. The saddle itself sits you far back on the horse's back and is usually pretty flat. Dressage is all about achieving a long leg with your heel, hip and ear all aligned in a vertical line- if you took the horse out from under the rider, she should be able to balance in that same position- not fall over backwards or forwards. The saddles have deep seats, often with various padded blocks to keep the legs in position.
> 
> Saddle seat:
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> 
> Dressage:


Oh! Thanks for correcting me! I mean it - that was very helpful!

I've taken two saddle seat lessons, but my next two are for driving. I'm excited. My instructor told me she old school me in hunt seat if I brought my own saddle, so this barn would up working in my favour.


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## uflrh9y

equitate said:


> SS should not put you in a chair seat (thighs high/etc), in ALL seats (by the usef rules...) ear/shoulder/hip/heel should be in alignment, and there should always be a straight line from elbow to horses mouth. Yes, the hips should be more open, which almost makes for a lower leg too stretched/calves almost off. It should NOT be about raising the hands however (there is a straight line but horses are (articially) high), but not resting them too low either. Affectations of style (over doing it are everywhere).
> 
> The difference is that one is (almost) behind the motion in ss, with it in dressage, slightly in front of it in h/j (because of moving at speed and over fences).
> 
> Least we all forget people like Bill Steinkraus/Wofford/etc rode ss before they rode huntseat/jumpers/evented!
> 
> Keep the thumb onto the forefinger to keep a connection and prevent dropping the rein. Erect posture will help prevent stumbling/loss of balance/etc.


Thank you for the correction because I was about to say the same thing. People often times think the riders position in SS is a chair seat but it's not. As the poster said above, there should still be an alignment from ear through the hip through the heel. The difference is the leg and heel are pushed away from the horse and the rider is positioned farther back on the horse to free up the movement in the front end (though that does not mean the horse is not bringing its hind end under themselves and collected because it actually requires even more collection to get that action). 

The other difference is the full bridle. In SS you ride with a full bridle (a weymouth bit or double bit). So you have 2 sets of reins instead of one. In the simplest terms curb brings it in and the snaffle brings it up. I will say, learning SS teaches you to have soft hands because you can't ride with a full bridle and yank the horses head into place. You can't get away with as much as you can when just riding with a snaffle. It's the slightest movement with you pinky and wrist. Plus the muscle and endurance required to keep your back arched, shoulders back, legs back and away, and hands up is incredible.


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## bsms

I don't do saddle seat riding and probably never will. However, I just did an Internet search for photos of "saddleseat horse championship", and most of what I found looked like this:








​ 
Not much shoulder - hip - heel alignment there! Same here:






It is a style of riding linked to the past, and very few riders in the past (before 1965ish) rode with shoulder - hip - heel aligned. This picture is from a 1951 Boy Scout manual showing what was then considered the proper way to ride (general purpose riding):








​ 
Jackie Kennedy riding in the background, probably in the 50s:








​ 
That was just how the vast majority of people rode 50+ years ago. One can argue if it is good or bad, but riding that has its roots in the pre-1960 time frame probably will not have a shoulder - hip - heel alignment.


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## uflrh9y

In the video of the Saddleseat Equitation Senior Championship, the back of her heel was absolutely aligned with her ear and shoulder and hip. It may look different to a hunter because the stirrup is a little longer and the leg is pushed away from the body. As for the top picture, it is quite possible that that is not an equitation class. When a rider is riding in a pleasure class they are more interested in the look of the horse then the position of the rider. So you will see a lot of exaggerated leg pushed forward and the rider may sit farther back and have their hands higher because they are focused more on pushing the horse on and setting him up. But that is not the correct form.


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## bsms

uflrh9y said:


> In the video of the Saddleseat Equitation Senior Championship, the back of her heel was absolutely aligned with her ear and shoulder and hip...


Hmmm...whatever was I thinking? :?


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## updownrider

bsms said:


> Jackie Kennedy riding in the background, probably in the 50s:
> 
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> 
> That was just how the vast majority of people rode 50+ years ago. One can argue if it is good or bad, but riding that has its roots in the pre-1960 time frame probably will not have a shoulder - hip - heel alignment.


You found a picture of Jackie Kennedy turned around speaking to someone, not the best photo to represent her normal position. Jackie Kennedy rode in a beautiful forward seat, as did her children and many many others at that time. I am going to guess the above photo was from the 1960s and was a photo from the Freudy family archives. It is available online.

Freudy Photos - Kennedy


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## uflrh9y

bsms said:


> Hmmm...whatever was I thinking? :?


I'm really not sure what your point is. You said you have never ridden SS and don't plan on it, and a few people who have ridden and know about it have said the proper way. I guess I could go through every frame of a video of a Hunt Seat Champion in any given show and find a time when their form was not perfect (though I just don't have the time nor the inclination to do so). I will say the top picture, if you move the line back so it runs to the back of the heel it would go right where it should taking in consideration that it is not a straight on shot but a picture taken from above at a slight angle so it's like trying to judge a conformation of a horse looking at a picture that is taken at an angle). Not to mention it also depends on the angle of the shot (which is why the bottom picture looks so off IMO). Plus, she was the only one in the class. If you get a chance to see riders at Arab Nationals or even better the US Saddleseat World Cup Team, you will definitely see correct form. I don't think that girl had the best form throughout the class at all, but that doesn't disprove what we have said. 

Anyway, I've trained SS and my daughter rides at a Championship Arab stable where they train and show SS and I know the correct way. And if you go online and read an article from anyone worth their salt on equitation it would say the same thing I and the others have said.


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## Golden Horse

Admission straight up, I know nothing about saddle seat.

I was amazed to read here that there should be a shoulder hip heel line in SS, I would never have guessed it based on my limited exposure, but a google search of images https://www.google.ca/search?q=sadd...uJcaryQH_hID4Aw&ved=0CDoQsAQ&biw=1366&bih=628 if that works, I am struggling to see any lined up.


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## bsms

updownrider said:


> You found a picture of Jackie Kennedy turned around speaking to someone, not the best photo to represent her normal position...


Hmmm...


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## uflrh9y

Golden Horse said:


> Admission straight up, I know nothing about saddle seat.
> 
> I was amazed to read here that there should be a shoulder hip heel line in SS, I would never have guessed it based on my limited exposure, but a google search of images https://www.google.ca/search?q=sadd...uJcaryQH_hID4Aw&ved=0CDoQsAQ&biw=1366&bih=628 if that works, I am struggling to see any lined up.


Well, another issue is that photos taken on victory rounds are not the best way to judge. First off, in a lot of those pictures you will notice the rider is often times on the wrong diagonal. In SS the rider will ride on the wrong diagonal in the victory pass so the best picture of the horses outside leg up does not have the rider up in the air. Plus, the rider is trying to get the best photo taken of the horse and not so much themselves. Also, again if the picture is not of Equitation the rider is not worried at all about their form and just the horse. Finally, professional SS pictures are taken with the photographer low and at an angle to highlight the horses vertical movement and head set.


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## Golden Horse

:rofl::rofl:

That is kind of like don't judge a saddle seat rider by any pics you see, just take my word for it!!

I like that idea.

Don;t judge me on any pics you happen to see, THIS is what I really look like


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## uflrh9y

Hahaha, maybe. 

It's also kind of like, I don't know anything about a style of riding but I googled some pictures and now I'm an expert. lol

But as Levar Burton says "You don't have to take my word for it"


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## Golden Horse

uflrh9y said:


> Hahaha, maybe.
> 
> It's also kind of like, I don't know anything about a style of riding but I googled some pictures and now I'm an expert. lol
> 
> But as Levar Burton says "You don't have to take my word for it"


It's also kind of like, if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and lays eggs, it quite possibly IS a duck:wink:


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## Inga

I find it interesting that people felt somehow unbalanced because their hands were higher. If you look at Saddleseat riders, their hands held high are done so in an effort to have the direct line contact with the horses mouth. In Saddleseat the horses head is also held higher. It would be strange to try to hold your hands down at the withers when the horses head is up in the air. Equally strange would be riding a Quarterhorse who has his head down with your hands high. 

Discover Horses, All About Horses, 2012 Olympic Games, Equestrian Events, Life With Horses, Kids Who Love Horses – discoverhorses.com

Hopefully that will bring up the photo I want. I can't upload to photobucket right now for some reason. In Saddleseat, The shoulder, hip and heel should be in a line. Just because some riders do not achieve that doesn't mean it isn't the goal. Show me any class where all the riders are in perfect form. Also, as stated, on a victory lap, you work to make the horse look the best and probably are not as perfect as you would like to be yourself. Some are, some are not. 

I believe there is something to be learned in all disciplines. I love Saddleseat as it is exciting, high energy and fun. I also love most of the breeds ridden Saddleseat as their temperaments are such that matches my own. Have fun with your lessons. Hopefully you can get comfortable with it and learn something you keep with you.


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## Tack Collector

Old-style saddleseat before the adjustable stirrup bars came in in the '80s was closer to the classical dressage position. I have old catalogs that show only a 19" cutback saddle with a 4" cutback head for adults, and the park saddle, which was size 17"- 19" for adults.

Today, the adjustable stirrup bars created in a whole new artificial "sit-back" style, and eq riders are usually riding a 22" - 23" long saddle with the stirrup bars set all the way back. That is why you see chair-seat and also why you see 4"-5" of flap out in front of the rider's legs now.

I know I have seen a lot better and smoother equitation riders than that woman in the black suit in the video. Her legs were flapping all over the place, and her toes were out in front of here in a (imo) very unflattering picture. The Shively 2000 and MMX saddles are what the equitation riders use now, and they force the rider into a chair seat.









^ is Wing Commander from the '40s. Decent equitation position.

Also, some trainers and people who don't ride equitation classes have an entirely different style of pushing back as far as they can and sticking their feet out in front. But, they are not trying to be eq riders at all. Not the slightest bit. Many tall people say that sitting on their pockets like that gives them a more secure seat on a rambunctious or green horse. Trainer style:









I uploaded 3 saddle pics. The pinkish saddle on the bottom is a Barnsby Battaglia, the same tree/seat as the Shively 2000 and MMX. It's easy to see why, even with the stirrup bar set back all the way, you will always be in a chair-seat position. (I flipped that photo, so yeah, you're looking at the off side not the near side, for you sticklers, lol. I was in a hurry.)

The flatter seat (top right) is a L&R Louisville. And the deep seat (top left) is a Joseph Sterling Millennium 3000 deep seat and that seat type is also called "equitation seat." It's easy to see that either of those two saddles results in a more natural position. A saddle that has its balance point nearer the center, even if it is a saddleseat cutback, will allow the rider to align in the classical position, head, hips, heels.


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## LadyDreamer

The guy in the last pic is also a VERY tall man... Just saying.

One thing about SS, we use our butts a great deal more than our leg. You will see even the best of our riders really roll back and sit really deep with our legs out especially at the rack. A great deal of our horses would know a leg cue from a pat on the rump. I know with my gaited mare, I was having a HECK of a time getting her to stay racking. I really had to use my butt for encouragement. Western lessons teaching me to "sit on my pockets" helped me SOOOO much! Sometimes we are bracing ourselves with a very powerful horse. Some are just up there for the ride. In SS, unless you are riding Equitation, the horse's performance is what matters. If hooking your feet in the reins and laying over his rump is what he needs, by golly you do it. LOL. 

Look at this guy. Photo by Jen Corcoran Nuttin

This man is like twelve feet tall(VERY much exaggerating, but he is one of the tallest men I have ever met). Holy cow, I don't think there is a Saddlebred alive that is big enough for him. LOL! However, HIS riding does not represent "how it should be done".

And here is a "normal" sized man. Love this man. IMG_3951

Another great "normal" sized man. Again, love this guy too. IMG_8995


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## Tack Collector

I said "tall people" because they are the ones who can lay back like that and then pendulum the upper body forward when they need to, for balance. You'll almost never see a child or a small woman riding like that, because we can't. If a small person tried that, it would be like crack-the-whip because the rider is far too far behind where they need to sit to keep their balance.


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## Tack Collector

Saddleseat saddles descended from the old English hunting saddles of the 19th century: flat seat, straight flaps, rider sat upright in the center of the horse's back and rode a long stirrup. The old painting is pretty close to the shape of an old hunting saddle. The photo is a park saddle, which came after the hunting saddle and before the 4" cutback Lane Fox saddle. Park saddles were the AP saddle for flat riding. It's a shorter tree and it sits your rider closer to the classical dressage position.

http://wpcontent.answcdn.com/wikipe...Viscount_Gage.jpg/200px-1st_Viscount_Gage.jpg


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## Tack Collector

The British "show saddle" is also a descendent of that old flat hunting saddle.

Jeffries (brand) Classic Show Saddle. (You can see that saddleseat position in the shape of the seat and placement of the stirrup bars up front with balance point toward the center or rear. NOT like a forward seat saddle at all. It's made for sitting.)


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