# Any experiences with Bates Caprilli saddles?



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I have two - a CC and an AP. My horses seem to like CAIR, but I'm not a fan. I don't know if it is because we're at nearly 4000' MSL, but I find it bouncy. I would prefer flocked panels, but my horses seem happy so... 

I like changeable gullets - not for daily changes, but for times when you switch a horse or your horse's condition changes.


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

I got a Bates Caprilli on trial and wasn't overly impressed. Maybe it's the CAIR panels, but the saddle as a whole felt too light and kind of "cheap." My saddle fitter cautioned me against the CAIR panels as well as she's seen a lot of horses get sore backs from it.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

You will be far better off with an older, well constructed saddle on a versatile wood tree with wool flocking than an "adjustable" saddle.
First issue is the CAIR panels, like any air in a saddle, they make the ride bouncy and uncomfortable and because of the constant pressure on the back, will actually atrophy the horses muscles - especially because you have to do the girth up so tight to keep the thing from sliding off the side of the horse!
Second issue is the gullet versus tree adjustment. A gullet change only adjusts the width of the front of the saddle, the tree shape stays the same. That is like only adjusting the steering wheel height in a car when going from a 4' tall driver to a 6' tall driver. It is not a "one size fits all" solution.

I have a normal tree KN saddle that I can quite literally put on nearly any horse. I have found 1 horse it won't fit, and she goes in a custom made x-wide tree. It has served me much better than some poorly made adjustable thing.

Good luck!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I'll have to disagree on needing to pull the girth very tight on a Bates Caprilli. I don't, and my saddles don't slide. Did I mention, though, that I love a horse with withers? 

The pressure on the back will be based on inches squared of distribution vs weight of rider (and rider motion). The CAIR panels are not inflated. They are sealed at room pressure near sea level. At 4000 MSL, they may have excess pressure, but lots of folks never ride at 4000 MSL.

I prefer no CAIR to CAIR, but my horses probably prefer CAIR. It is hard to tell, though, because an Australian saddle - what I have without CAIR - is a somewhat different design...so a bit of an apple to oranges comparison. But my horses certainly do not seem to object to my Bates.

Also, in mine at least, the leather seems very good for the price. I bought them for about $1000 each new and have no complaints about the leather for that price. They are decent saddles, but obviously not high end saddles. 

The AP has a flatter design...it is a bit too flat front to rear for my horse, and that is not adjustable. The CC saddle fits her back well.


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## DuckDodgers (May 28, 2013)

On the CAIR panels note- I've heard lots of people complain about them, but my Wintec Isabell dressage saddle has them, and my horse does great with them. The adjustable gullet gives you more flexibility, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it will fit every horse you come across.

I have a friend that's very tall and thin with long legs, and the Bates Caprilli with a long flap has been one of the only close contact saddles to fit her leg and not have her swimming in the seat. She liked the feel of it and it put her in a good position, but she ordered a demo model and the gullet change system ended up being defective. The leather quality was also not particularly great... didn't look like it would stay nice looking for very long. Because of the defective change system and poor leather quality she sent it back and is still on her saddle search, but I think she's still considering it if she can't find something better that still fits her.


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## Tack Collector (Nov 10, 2009)

Bates, Collegiate, and Wintec ccs are all built on the same trees. There's a deeper seat like the Wintec Pro Jump and 500 Jump, and Collegiate Diploma. And a flatter seat like the Wintec 500 close contact. So if you can't try a Bates, maybe you can try one of those others for fit. The Collegiate Diploma and Alumni are flocked, though. The twist is too narrow for comfort, for me. But I need a moderate to wide twist. The twist doesn't seem to change on these saddles when the gullet is changed. That's not true of all changeable gullet saddles. Some, the twist changes from fence-post to barrel in tandem with the gullet width.


The CAIR "pods" are inserts in the panels. There used to be 2 "pods" per side, with a divider in between. Some people said that that divider piece irritated some horses but not all. that might be a consideration if you are looking at new ones. There's a British saddlemaker on the NewRider board who posted pictures of the current panels of a flocked Wintec, and he says that the new flocked saddles and CAIR saddles are made exactly the same way, and the only difference is which insert (flocking or CAIR) gets installed there. Thus, the new Wintecs with flocking are NOT as adjustable as the older ones, because that space where the insert goes is smaller than the flocked panels of the older saddles. Since this change may have been made on the Bates and Collegiate (all those are owned by Weatherbeeta), it might be something to beware of.

Another thing with used CAIR saddles is those CAIR panels go flat with age and use. Look for uneven dips in the panels. If you have a flat CAIR panel, then it or maybe all of them will need to be replaced.

Position: There have been a lot of riders complain that the balance point of these saddles is too far back, or that the stirrup bars are too far forward. But it's the same problem: Maybe too much distance between the sweet spot of the seat and the stirrup bars, for some riders. If the bars are out too far in front, ou get chair-seat and can't get your legs under you, and have to keep climbing forward. Try before you buy.

The Wintec saddles all run 1/2" inch bigger than stated seat size, at least the AP and CC and dressage other than Isabell all do. Check whether or not Bates runs big, too.

Tree shape was already mentioned. But, yeah, they don't fit everything. The white XW gullet combined with the close contact saddle seems to be a combo that fits practically nothing, lol. Most horses that need that white gullet are also more table-backed and the cc trees are too curvy.


The riser system is the same shims that Wintec/Bates have had for years. They are just marketing that to consumers now. Some of the older saddles can use that system. There's a FAQ for Wintecs, maybe there's one for Bates. The saddlers at UltimateDressage said good luck getting the panels back on when the rear shims are installed. LOL. That's all I know about that system.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Just as a reminder...CAIR panels are foam-filled plastic pockets whose air is sealed in at sea level pressure. They are not inflated like a tire, and they do not take up all the space in the panel. I know a few folks in Arizona have had their CAIR inserts pulled and their panels flocked. I was told the price would be about the same as changing out the flocking in a flocked saddle. I have not had it done myself...although I would like to someday if I keep my English saddles.

Statelinetack has Bates Caprilli CC saddles for $1370 and an AP for $1200. Their price line is in between Colligate and Pessoa.

Also, FWIW, if I use a Wintec foam pad under the saddle, it takes out all the bounce. And since my standard for bounce comparison is the saddle below, I guess you can take my bounce comments with a big cup of FWIW as well:








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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

I had a Bates Caprilli AP for 20 years before getting an Ascot Romana a year ago. I thought the Bates Caprilli was good until I got my new saddle. The main reason the new one is so good isn't so much that it's an X or a Y but that it was professionally fitted to both me and my wide, big-shouldered horse. The Ascot Romana was the general recommendation for the type of horse and then it was adjusted totally for the shape of my horse's back - gullet angle, panel flocking etc. It didn't cost that much to get the fitter out and she did a fabulous job getting both of us comfortable. That would be my recommendation - get a good fitter to come with various different kinds of saddles and fit the most suitable one to you and your horse.

PS: My Caprilli AP had a far narrower channel than my new saddle. I presume the Caprillis have changed design in the last twenty years also and are probably significantly different to what I had.


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## PinkHorse (Jan 18, 2009)

I've had my Bates Caprilli CC saddle for several years now and really like it. I have a long thigh so it was one of the only saddles I tried that fit me well. I've used it on several horses with no problems. The downside is that it is "bouncy". That would be the one thing I don't like much about it but am used to it now so don't really notice.


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