# Stallion-searching: Which one for my mare?



## Britt (Apr 15, 2008)

*I’m looking to breed my mare for the final time later this year (in about two or three months). Since this will be her second and final foal, I’m wanting something pretty nice, and can afford to find a stud that’s more suited to her (my ‘limit’ on stud fee’s, though, is $250). I’ve been looking and have found four studs that I really like. One of them is located just down the road from me and I’ve always loved him, but he doesn’t really compliment my mare all that well. The other three are in Tennessee.*

*I have permission to post pictures of these stallions, and I would like some opinions on which one most compliments my mare. The stallions-owners only request is that there are no critique’s of the stallions, just opinions on how well they do or don’t suit my mare and why or why not.*

*First off, here’s my mare. She’s a Tennessee Walking Horse (unregistered, though), and is nineteen years old. My plans for the resulting foal will be mostly as a trail horse, though maybe a few ‘just for fun’ shows here and there (obstacle challenges, trail challenges, etc…).*
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*(Stallion A)*
*This stallion is nineteen years old and registered as “Last Chance” in the TWHBEA and RHAA. He’s owned by a breeder just down the road from me. Stud fee: $0, as I would get a free breeding if I chose this stallion because the owner of this stud is a family friend and see’s me like a grand-daughter. This is the one that I absolutely adore, but I know he doesn’t suit my mare that well. 
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*(Stallion B)*
*Registered TWHBEA as “Kir Royale”, this stallion is only two years old (I’m pretty sure). His sire is Eb’s Wind Dancer, but I’m not sure about who his dam is. He’s homozygous champagne (ee Aa ChCh). Stud fee: $250
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*(Stallion C)*
*TWHBEA registered “Kneival’s Pushin Starbucks” is a 2010 double agouti cremello tobiano stallion (ee AA CrCr nT) He is a 3X Reserve World Champion in SSHBEA Sport Horse (2012 2-year-old pole bending, 2-year-old barrel racing, and 2-year-old reining RWC). He is sired by Kneival’s Pusher Man and out of Starbuck’s Main Lady. (I’ve seen him in person as well, and he’s really nice… my only real ‘issue’ with him is that he’s shorter than what I like, but that’s not a major issue) Stud fee: $250*







[/B][/COLOR][/B]







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*(Stallion D)*
This stallion is a homozygous black, homozygous tobiano triple registered Tennessee Walking Horse stallion (TWHBEA registered as “General Hector”). His sire is WGC “Colors in General” and his dam is TWHNC WC “Generators Winning Colors” (who is a full sister to “Generator’s Color Guard”). He is DNA tested to be homozygous for the tobiano gene and homozygous black (EE aa TT) Stud fee: $250























So, opinions on which stallion would cross best with my mare? I’m kinda partial to General Hector. I really like how his neck is set onto his shoulders, but other than that, I can’t tell how he would cross with my mare. I know that she’s a little heavy in the front and has a low-set neck, but that’s about all I can pick out.


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## Sahara (Jul 23, 2010)

My first thought after looking at this post? I'd be feeding all of the horses and breeding none of them.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

My first thought, I must be some sort of snob because I wouldn't breed any of my mares to a $250 stud, think far to much of them for that. 

My second thought, IF I could only afford that money for stud fees I would probably take my $250 to the local auction and buy the best weanling being run through, I'd probably have to buy two though to use up my money.

My third thought, I know nothing of of walkers, so can't input on which you should choose. If I did input it would be a little hypocritical, because I don't think you should breed her period.


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## Britt (Apr 15, 2008)

ETA: The pictures of all the studs are prolly several months old or older. I don't think I have any real recent pics of them. I am not asking for any type or critique on anything, weight or otherwise. 

I'd just like to know which one best compliments my mare, because regardless, I AM going to breed her to one of them and want to choose the best one for her that would throw the nicest conformed foal, specifically a nicer head, neck, and shoulder set.


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## Britt (Apr 15, 2008)

I could afford more on stud fee's, just don't really want to go much higher, because out here, $250 is a LOT for a stud fee.


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## Sahara (Jul 23, 2010)

Britt said:


> ETA: The pictures of all the studs are prolly several months old or older. I don't think I have any real recent pics of them. I am not asking for any type or critique on anything, weight or otherwise.
> 
> I'd just like to know which one best compliments my mare, because regardless, I AM going to breed her to one of them and want to choose the best one for her that would throw the nicest conformed foal, specifically a nicer head, neck, and shoulder set.


In that case, close your eyes and do "innie, minnie, mynie, mo". None of them are breeding worthy, including your mare, so it really doesn't matter. Take her to the free one, you will save money that you will need later.

And how can anyone say which will throw the nicest conformed foal if we can't critique anything??????


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Personally, I wouldn't want to breed your mare as her conformation leaves a lot to be desired. That's not to say that she's not a nice horse, I'm sure she is, but I wouldn't want to reproduce that steep shoulder and weak hind end...among other issues.

Not only that, but like others have said, I wouldn't breed to any of those studs, regardless of the stud fee.

The problem with breeding to studs with cheap stud fees is that the studs just aren't that good. There are conformational issues with all of them, most of them are underfed and generally not well cared for.

Add to that, the only reason the last 3 are studs is just because of their color. I'd lay odds that if they'd been born bay or sorrel, they would have been gelded when they were weaned...or earlier.

You can pick up a much better quality horse at your local auction (or off CL) for much less.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

If you bred the colt to the pinto or the cremello you could register the foal with the Palomino Horse, or Pinto registries. Colour does add value.
Those are not good pictures of either your mare or the stallions so I really cant tell which is best suited to your mare.
If I could I would ignore the part about no critique and tell you what I thought.
As it is the pinto seems to be the best of the 4. Then again I know very little about walkers.
If 250 is a lot of money go with the free one. good luck. Shalom


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Britt said:


> I could afford more on stud fee's, just don't really want to go much higher, because out here, $250 is a LOT for a stud fee.


Genuine question, is that because the horse market is so poor down there that stud fees are universally low, or just that walkers are that cheap.

Up here, $500 is for a mediocre meh type stud

$750 would give you a nice workman like horse,

$1000 opens the door to the level I would want to breed my girls to.


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

I know VERY little about Walking Horse conformation .. they are VERY different from most other horses... so I can't add valuable input.

Some of the nicest horses I've ever met were TWHs though...


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I personally don't feel your mare has enough desireable traits for breeding but if you are set on breeding, from the studs you posted, I like the first and the last, although the first one looks very thin and has no muscle tone.

Are these registered horses?



MOD NOTE: When typing your posts, please ensure they are respectful and without sarcasm or rudeness. Sugar coating is not neccessary but mature replies are requested.


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

I'm not trying to rail on you, but it has always been my opinion that it's better to save a horse for your next trail buddy than it is to breed for one.

Breed if you want a top dollar show pony. But there are many yearling TWH out there who are being run through the auctions, starving, and begging for someone to save them from their misery. I think any one of them would love to come live with you and be your next best friend.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

A good breeder is one who breeds the best to the best. Then hopes for the best.

In the current market situation its much more honorable to save a life than to create another...


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

You were just given a yearling mini colt that you can't afford to geld. What are you going to do if something goes wrong?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

I might also point out that breeding in July or August like you have planned is not a good idea. Your youngstock will be significantly smaller than what is already bred this season. Plus being born in the hotter months of the year can cause some complications for mom and baby, especially since you live in the south. Your mare is already 19, underweight, and could face some serious issues being heavily pregnant in the summer - such as tying up. June is pretty much the last month for breeding season, and even that is pretty late.


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

OVO.. I believe that's when TWH breeders breed. Their show season is different and many breed for fall babies.


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## Misty'sGirl (Oct 22, 2007)

I don't mean to be insensitive, I'm just genuinely curious - a lot of your threads have been about not being able to afford things. 

Obviously we won't be able to change your mind, but how exactly are you going to afford everything, especially if something goes wrong?


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

texasgal said:


> OVO.. I believe that's when TWH breeders breed. Their show season is different and many breed for fall babies.


My bad! You learn something new every day. xD


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

oh vair oh said:


> My bad! You learn something new every day. xD


Well some of us do, others argue for days that they were right all along!

I wonder why they choose fall foaling, it seems odd, but then so does Jan 1st when you live next to the Arctic


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## ThirteenAcres (Apr 27, 2012)

I agree that you might as well just close your eyes and pick. Either way you're putting your mare and a foal in danger. She's not in good shape and you must think fairly lowly of her to put her in that danger for YOUR happiness. A $250 stud fee is just...I can't even fathom doing that to my mare. Sorry to be frank about it, but you're making very, very poor decisions.


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## TheNinja (Dec 5, 2010)

Since I am on a defending spree of the OP tonight... Here goes..

I know each of these stallions personally, as well as the OP and her mare. The mare is NOT underweight. She WAS last winter due to a bad feeding program which has been fixed and the mare has been perfectly fine all year. As on Monday, she is a solid 5 on a BCS. I wouldn't say that is "underweight", at all. As for the OP, she is capable of caring for the mare whether she is in foal or not.

So, firstly, the red studs name is not "Last Chance". Idc what his owner says, OP. Last Chance passed in 1985. His name is "Fast Chance", and if I remember correctly, he is one of only 2 stallions with his particular blood line left in the US. While he himself is not much to look at in the photo, he is built correctly FOR HIS BREED. Also, he has yet failed to produce a foal that was not excellent quality. Every foal of his has been very well gaited, properly conformed, and had a wonderful mind with a good work ethic and trainability.
Secondly, the champagne colt is only a 2 y/o and has only just been bred this year to two "test mares". He had a bit of a rough start before his current owner got him, which is why he is a bit thin. He is startingg his under saddle career now and will be shown and campaigned.
Thirdly, the photos of the cremello tobi stud do NOT do this guy justice! They were also from his long yearling year, and why the OP picked those out of all of his others, I do not know. This stud is a proven, winning show horse at only 3. He also carries super bloodlines. His first foal crop has only just hit the ground, but each one has been nothing but quality.
Fourthly, the black/white stud is a real Walking Horse! Also old pictures. He is my pick out of the lot simply due to the foals he has produced. He is AMAZING in every aspect and his foals are no exception. I rode his very first colt and that guy is a walking, shaking, natural fool with the mind of a 20 y/o and built like a brick house!
Not a single foal from this stallion has been anything less than great.

Now, as for the stud fees. There is absolutely nothing wrong with $250. The pleasure bred side of TWH and SSH are lower than the performance/"big lick" side. This is not uncommon or a sign that these are low quality horses. These studs' owner produces some of the nicest foals around every year. And no, the color is NOT what made them be left studs. The color is just the icing on the cake. But, if you aren't knowledgable in the TWH world, it is quite common for horses of this breed to be "colored" and many are homozygous for this and that. But these horses combine the best of all the qualities of the TWH/SSH. Conformation, trainability, mind, and color LAST. As a good friend of their owner, I can assure you they strive to produce quality offspring and work hard with their horses. They also set their fees low to allow the "common man" to get a breeding to an exceptional stallion at a low price. Money is not the object to them, bettering the breed is. 

I'm truely sorry if I sound hostile, but it is only due to frustration at the lack of simply being able to answer the question asked. It is the OP's perogative to breed her mare to whatever she wants and no manner of online "don't do its!" make a large difference. I'm posetive she knows the pros and cons of what she's doing. And she IS trying to find the best match for her mare to produce the best she can.
ANE finally, IMO, OP should cross the mare on the 4th horse. He suits her the best, and he wilproduce a gaited spotted foal WHO WILL BE ELIGABLE TO BE REGISTERED as a NSSH and SSHBEA. NOT a grade foal!

*steps off soapbox for the night*


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

*steals soapbox*

There is a reason why there is a warning on this section of the board, it is the toughest area of the board. There are those of us who are passionate about breeding or not breeding, and for us it is not a personal attack, but somewhat of a crusade to try and reduce the amount breeding that goes on "just because"

Yes when it comes down to it it is the ops right to breed to who ever she wants to, but you come here to ask questions you will get answers, but you may not like them.

As to all teh background stories, well you know I forgot to plug my crystal ball in, so missed seeing all that you have now told us, should of picked it up from one or two pics I guess.

*gets off soap box* dusts it off and parks it for the next person


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

OP, sorry you cant just get an answer without a million soapbox speeches... I have seen people on this very forum breed far more unfortunate looking horses than yours without receiving near the flack. Especially after you posted with your disclaimer that you were going to breed no matter what and that you arent asking for criticism... which everyone seems more than happy to give anyway.

I would choose stallion 3. I think he has many flaws, but over all has heavier bone (ideal for a trail horse imo) and decent conformation for a TWH. I like his front end (which compliments your mares weaker one).

Remember to think your decision through with plenty of thought to the future of this foal before you breed. Good luck!


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## TheNinja (Dec 5, 2010)

I'm not saying anyone is attacking. I respect the opinions 100% here. There is a wealth of knowledge in this place. The OP should have elaborated on the horses more than she did. That's why I did. I think very ighly of their owner, and just feel they were a bit misrepresented here.
I am only speaking for the OP here as a friend. I too have some concerns about the mares age, but there is a planned breeding soundness check in order before anything is set in stone. That is what I'm told. I know The OP has a "history" here that isn't exactly squeaky clean. Lol. But she is trying to go about this the "right way", and if she is going to do that, at least she's trying. Right?


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

I don't necessarily have an issue with the breeding itself(though I do feel that she could find a much, much better cross for her mare and at 19, it would not be worth the risk, IMO), however the issue is MONEY. She cannot even afford to geld a mini STUD COLT who could very well get her mare pregnant. If you cannot afford to geld($150-400, tops), you can't afford to breed. There's vet visits, shots, extra feed, the mare is older so will require much more intense care. What if something goes wrong? If you do not have at LEAST enough money for a euth/removal in the bank you should not be breeding, period. It is highly irresponsible and puts your mare in danger of losing her life or the life of her foal. 

My mare is 20, I had the chance to breed her. Do I regret not doing it? Yes and no. She is worth way more to me than taking the chance to get a foal. Would I absolutely LOVE a replacement? Sure! But I value her life and her role in MY life more than that.


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## TheNinja (Dec 5, 2010)

Tthe mini is not anywhere near her mare. Totally different area. Just fwiw.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

A 19 year old seasoned broodmare in good condition is still a good candidate for breeding. Mares are bred well into their 20's safely . In fact I have bred mares at the age of 25 without issue.
When anyone asks total strangers to pick a stallion from a photo to breed to their mare of course it raises eyebrows and makes people wonder about the ability of someone to breed and raise a foal.
Thats to be expected.
Concern about breeding a healthy 19 yo mare makes me wonder about the OPs and her defenders experience breeding horses.
The OP has given the other members plenty of reason to question her knowledge and abilities.
That is not saying that certain information might have been given in a nicer tone but hey after reading other thread in the breeding section what should one expect but some very blunt and forward answers.. My concerns are many about this planned breeding.
Since the OP has already stated she is going to breed her mare to one of these stallions my only recourse is to wish her luck. Also to pray for the future of this foal. Shalom


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

IMO-it is unfortunate that some here put their "I WANT......." ahead of what is in the best interest of their horse. Really sad and selfish. Go buy one on the ground. their are plenty out there. I happen to have one-a TWH X, as it turns out, who easily could have been at the meat mans by now.

Looking at stud fees I am familiar with-starting at $1K......$250 is nothing, and I am not convinced that the OP can afford the health care necessary for both mare and foal, just judging from previous posts. Again-goes back to the selfish entitled mentality. "She is mine, therefore I can do what I want.". Yeah-you can, but don't expect us all to be thrilled at your lack of sensibility, no less support it.:?


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## Britt (Apr 15, 2008)

TheNinja, thanks for fixing the mistake with Leroy's name. I knew after I had written it that I'd done it wrong, but I had to go to work and didn't have time to fix it.

I am not putting my mare's health behind my own wants. I am planning on talking to the vet and layin out which issues she has (arthritis- she's on a supplement, etc...) and making sure the vet thinks she's breeding sound. If he doesn't think she'd be ok, I won't breed her.

I asked about which stud would be best suited for my mare because I'm horrible at looking and being able to tell. All I know for a fact is that the stud needs to have a nicer shoulder and better neck/shoulder tie-in. I needed opinions on which one was best suited for her because I couldn't tell anything besides what was glaringly obvious.

As for the miniature, his owners know I really don't want him that much, so I'm just working with him here and there trying to get him calmed down. Gelding him isn't my business because he's not really mine. I'm basically just training him and taming him down a little. I don't want him, I've got other horses to work with and care for and they know it.

Vet bills and such I'll be able to afford by saving a quarter of each paycheck and putting it away. My vet also does half-payments (pay half the cost at the time of seeing the mare, pay the next half later after another paycheck comes in). 

Yes, the studs are registered.

I didn't put all that information on that TheNinja did because I didn't know all of that information. I just knew that the cremello stud was a reserve world champ as a two year old.

Anyway, gotta go to work. I'll check this and answer any questions when I get home at six.


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## TheNinja (Dec 5, 2010)

"Concern about breeding a healthy 19 yo mare makes me wonder about the OPs and her defenders experience breeding horses." 


Idk about you, but I get concerned with every mare bred. Just me. No I don't have a ton of breeding experience because that's not my area that I delve into regularly. I know plenty about it, as does the OP, but we don't know it first hand. She has more than a few mentors and very good vets adept in breeding very near by to help if and when needed.

Every well bred, well conformed Walking youngster I have seen are not going for pennies. The stallion owners sell their foals for anywhere from $1200- $3500 as weanlings and yearlings. Their 3-4 y/o trail horses go for more than that. You are hard pressed to get quality at a sale barn, at least not these around here. You might get lucky to pull a decent quality, but skinny, bad mannered, unhandled two year old for $600.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

If you are deadset on breeding, go with Ninja says as they have seen your horse and know the studs. Please remember to have an emergency fund of cash on hand in case your mare or foal runs into complications, breeding is such risky, costly business, best to be prepared.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

TheNinja said:


> Every well bred, well conformed Walking youngster I have seen are not going for pennies. The stallion owners sell their foals for anywhere from $1200- $3500 as weanlings and yearlings. Their 3-4 y/o trail horses go for more than that. You are hard pressed to get quality at a sale barn, at least not these around here. You might get lucky to pull a decent quality, but skinny, bad mannered, unhandled two year old for $600.


I find that very odd, and a far better business model than horse breeding up here. 

$250 stud fee and $1200 weanlings.....yeah that sounds a lot better than

$750 stud fee and $1000 weanlings, which would be more normal up here.

How come stud fees are so low and the offspring so expensive?


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

The Ninja I am glad you are helping this young lady.
I like that she is passionate about horses and is willing to learn. My hat is off to you.
I have bred too many mares in my lifetime to be overly concerned with each breeding.
May I now suggest that after breeding this mare the OP start a thread and ask for tips on how to cut expenses feeding and caring for her horses.
She can then have a tidy nest egg when the foal does arrive. Good luck.
Shalom


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## Britt (Apr 15, 2008)

dbarabians said:


> The Ninja I am glad you are helping this young lady.
> I like that she is passionate about horses and is willing to learn. My hat is off to you.
> I have bred too many mares in my lifetime to be overly concerned with each breeding.
> May I now suggest that after breeding this mare the OP start a thread and ask for tips on how to cut expenses feeding and caring for her horses.
> ...


Thanks. I'll do that when I get home, lol... gotta go back to work now, break over.


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

Golden Horse said:


> I find that very odd, and a far better business model than horse breeding up here.
> 
> $250 stud fee and $1200 weanlings.....yeah that sounds a lot better than
> 
> ...


Maybe I'm not a walking horse person, but $1200 is still unimpressive to me. But what does money matter if you just want a trail pony? That's what I don't understand. I suppose breeding a debatable show quality stallion to a grade mare to make something in the middle to play with. Unless the original intent has changed to make this foal show stock. Seems like for the price of the stud fee, plus vet fees, time and money she could buy one of these stallion's amazing $1200 babies already born. :/ 

But I would go with the pinto.


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## Britt (Apr 15, 2008)

I'm going to try to reply to everything in order here...





> My first thought after looking at this post? I'd be feeding all of the horses and breeding none of them.



Not one of the horses posted, in my opinion, is underweight. One or two may be a bit slender or not have any muscle tone, but definitely not underweight, IMO.




> My first thought, I must be some sort of snob because I wouldn't breed any of my mares to a $250 stud, think far to much of them for that.



As I stated before, $250 stud fee is a pretty good bit for a nice stud out here. IMO, it's fairly high, actually, because out here you can find nice quality for about $50-$100 stud fees.



> My second thought, IF I could only afford that money for stud fees I would probably take my $250 to the local auction and buy the best weanling being run through, I'd probably have to buy two though to use up my money.



I personally wouldn't trust the people around here enough to go buy a youngster from an auction. Too many times I've heard and seen people buy horses at the local auction out here only to get them home and the horse go nuts because it was drugged. The only people selling from an auction that I would trust are the ones who try to sell at just about every auction but always take their horses back home because they won't sell for what is being offered.




> And how can anyone say which will throw the nicest conformed foal if we can't critique anything??????



The stallions owners asked for no critiques on their studs. I would have guessed it obvious that that meant to written critiques or bashing their studs.




> Genuine question, is that because the horse market is so poor down there that stud fees are universally low, or just that walkers are that cheap.
> 
> Up here, $500 is for a mediocre meh type stud
> 
> ...



Out here, studs fee's are fairly low in my community, I guess. I've grown up out here and the people who breed out here and around here usually have stud fee's set at between $50 and $100.


Out here, a $500 stud fee would be for like, a top, top dollar several times world champion show horse.


$750 stud fee would be for like, a several times over world grand champion show horse...


$1000 stud fee would be for a top dollar, high-money earner... virtually untouchable just about...




> I personally don't feel your mare has enough desireable traits for breeding but if you are set on breeding, from the studs you posted, I like the first and the last, although the first one looks very thin and has no muscle tone.
> 
> Are these registered horses?



The first stud was a little slenderer when the pictures were taken. He also is never ridden and doesn't leave his pasture, so the no muscle tone is explained there.




> I might also point out that breeding in July or August like you have planned is not a good idea. Your youngstock will be significantly smaller than what is already bred this season. Plus being born in the hotter months of the year can cause some complications for mom and baby, especially since you live in the south. Your mare is already 19, underweight, and could face some serious issues being heavily pregnant in the summer - such as tying up. June is pretty much the last month for breeding season, and even that is pretty late.
> Obviously we won't be able to change your mind, but how exactly are you going to afford everything, especially if something goes wrong?


Honest question here, how would breeding later in the year possibly effect the size of the foal? That just doesn't make any sense and I've never heard of it. I mean, I have, but it's just an old wives tale...



> I know each of these stallions personally, as well as the OP and her mare. The mare is NOT underweight. She WAS last winter due to a bad feeding program which has been fixed and the mare has been perfectly fine all year. As on Monday, she is a solid 5 on a BCS. I wouldn't say that is "underweight", at all. As for the OP, she is capable of caring for the mare whether she is in foal or not.



Thank you, TheNinja. Yes, last winter I switched my feed regime and haven't had any issues with my mare's weight since. She's actually been a little overweight recently. She may have lost a few pounds lately, as we went on a four day camping trip and she had to be stalled nightly with just hay and grain when she's used to free access pasture, but anything she's lost will pick back up quickly and she's definitely not underweight.





> Thirdly, the photos of the cremello tobi stud do NOT do this guy justice! They were also from his long yearling year, and why the OP picked those out of all of his others, I do not know. This stud is a proven, winning show horse at only 3. He also carries super bloodlines. His first foal crop has only just hit the ground, but each one has been nothing but quality. Fourthly, the black/white stud is a real Walking Horse! Also old pictures.



I did not realize how old those pictures were. I was trying to find side-angle pictures to give an idea of conformation and build.







> There is a reason why there is a warning on this section of the board, it is the toughest area of the board. There are those of us who are passionate about breeding or not breeding, and for us it is not a personal attack, but somewhat of a crusade to try and reduce the amount breeding that goes on "just because"
> 
> Yes when it comes down to it it is the ops right to breed to who ever she wants to, but you come here to ask questions you will get answers, but you may not like them.



I know why there's a warning and I was and still am ready to accept what is thrown at me. I do not appreciate snarky replies, but I'm not going to rise to the bait and snark back. I appreciate the answers and opinions given.




> OP, sorry you can't just get an answer without a million soapbox speeches... I have seen people on this very forum breed far more unfortunate looking horses than yours without receiving near the flack. Especially after you posted with your disclaimer that you were going to breed no matter what and that you arent asking for criticism... which everyone seems more than happy to give anyway.
> 
> I would choose stallion 3. I think he has many flaws, but over all has heavier bone (ideal for a trail horse imo) and decent conformation for a TWH. I like his front end (which compliments your mares weaker one).



It's ok, I can overlook the snarky replies and am looking to find the truly helpful replies, lol.Thank you for your reply.





> Remember to think your decision through with plenty of thought to the future of this foal before you breed. Good luck!



I am.







> I'm not saying anyone is attacking. I respect the opinions 100% here. There is a wealth of knowledge in this place. The OP should have elaborated on the horses more than she did. That's why I did. I think very ighly of their owner, and just feel they were a bit misrepresented here



I want to clarify that I didn't write too much about the last three studs because I don't know that much about them besides what is on the website. I don't know the studs owner as well as TheNinja does.





> I don't necessarily have an issue with the breeding itself(though I do feel that she could find a much, much better cross for her mare and at 19, it would not be worth the risk, IMO), however the issue is MONEY. She cannot even afford to geld a mini STUD COLT who could very well get her mare pregnant. If you cannot afford to geld($150-400, tops), you can't afford to breed. There's vet visits, shots, extra feed, the mare is older so will require much more intense care. What if something goes wrong? If you do not have at LEAST enough money for a euth/removal in the bank you should not be breeding, period. It is highly irresponsible and puts your mare in danger of losing her life or the life of her foal.



Money won't be an issue for my mare's breeding and vet visits, if she needs them. I am planning on saving up and putting up an emergency fund. I already had one, but had to use it on dental bills, but it won't take long to save up another one. I can afford to geld, however, the mini isn't "mine", even though he was "given" to me, and I'm not going to pay a lot for a horse that isn't mine. (that topic is elaborated in the other thread, if you wanna know everything about him).





> When anyone asks total strangers to pick a stallion from a photo to breed to their mare of course it raises eyebrows and makes people wonder about the ability of someone to breed and raise a foal.



I asked for opinions because I know next to nothing about conformation and wanted help choosing which stud most complimented my mare.



> IMO-it is unfortunate that some here put their "I WANT......." ahead of what is in the best interest of their horse. Really sad and selfish. Go buy one on the ground. Their are plenty out there. I happen to have one-a TWH X, as it turns out, who easily could have been at the meat mans by now.


As said before, if my vet thinks it's a bad idea to breed her, I won't breed her. She is more important to me than that.



> Maybe I'm not a walking horse person, but $1200 is still unimpressive to me. But what does money matter if you just want a trail pony? That's what I don't understand. I suppose breeding a debatable show quality stallion to a grade mare to make something in the middle to play with. Unless the original intent has changed to make this foal show stock. Seems like for the price of the stud fee, plus vet fees, time and money she could buy one of these stallion's amazing $1200 babies already born. :/



Around here, $1200 could get you a completely finished show horse or an in-utero foal, or anything in between. I am planning on doing small shows and competitions with this foal if I can. It won't just be a trail horse.


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## Oliveren15 (Apr 28, 2013)

I'm not sure if the OP is still looking for suggestions for which pairing to breed, or if this thread is still 'open' so to speak, but I personally think your mare is beautiful, Britt, and that IMO either the third or fourth stud would pair nicely with her. If you really and truly want to breed your mare, and your looking for a keep-it-forever foal, then I say go for it. Best wishes to you and your mare


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## TheNinja (Dec 5, 2010)

I will disagree with one thing, Britt- the stud fees. IMO, you just haven't looked too hard, as these studs ARE low for th eir quality. But I gave the reason as to why. $500- $1000 is an average stud fee for a well bred, well conformed PLEASURE BRED Walking Horse.
PLEASURE bred Walkers are not "trail horses" specifically. They are the versatility horses, flat shod, lite shod, etc. The every day horses you see. Even the great 'natural Walking Horse' crusader Nate Jacksons "Champagne Watchout" is only a $500 stud fee. And that horse is world famous.
It's a different world from the $3-$4k stud fees of performance horses, and the TWH/SSH world is TOTALLY different from most other breeds. I liken it to Saddlebreds. Their conformation is different and you have to know the breed to understand it "correctly".

That about the stud fees isn't right, Britt. That's just your lack of knowledge in that area, and I mean no offense by that. Just sayin'.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

I can tell you right now, I did a little googling for studs in the N.E. Alabama area, and $250 is bottom of the barrel for stud fees. I cannot imagine refusing to spend more on a stud who's better conformed and a better match for your mare.


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

TheNinja said:


> "Champagne Watchout" is only a $500 stud fee. And that horse is world famous.
> [/size]


Honestly, since he's no longer standing at stud, he's not really a good horse to use as a comparison. But I highly doubt he was only $500.


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## Britt (Apr 15, 2008)

Thanks for the replies and thanks for the slight correction, TheNinja. I was/am basing my own opinion of the stud fee's on what I personally know/have seen.


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## Britt (Apr 15, 2008)

I also would like to put in, I just did a general search for TWH stallions at stud and not one of their stud fee's that I found was over $500. Several were $250 or below and the 'average' appeared to be about $300.

I only did a general search and that's what I found. TWH stud fee's aren't near as outrageous as AQHA and other breeds.


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## TheNinja (Dec 5, 2010)

A "general search" for TWH, will pull up PERFORMANCE horses. That is why I just explained all of that. Watchout is still at stud, his owners daughter, Nataleigh, is a very good friend of mine. I am breeding one of mine to him next spring, matter of fact.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TheNinja (Dec 5, 2010)

And guess what, his stud fee is...... $500. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Freemare (Jun 2, 2012)

Just like a few other people said $250 is a vary low price for a stud fee. We have a stallion with a $700 stud fee. He's a friesian stallion. A lot of stallions that are worth the breeding are $1000 or more for one stud. Breeding to any of the stallions here I don't recommended. There conformation is not on the great side. With your mares conformation. You want a stallion that can help with her conformation faults. My friend has a half arab/paint. Nice looking horse but his conformation is so bad. She did not take my word about the stallion that she had picked. She got a bad foal out of it. Then sold him, as he could not be ridden because he was so bad. So now he is a driving horse. Even being a driving horse he will never get to the higher levels of training because he is so bad conformation wise.
Think of it like this. Why do you think we have so many unwanted horse? It's because of unwanted and bad breeding. Everyone wants a foal, who wouldn't. Super cute, get to train them...etc. However breeding to a stallion and a mare that are not worth can give you a unwanted horse in the end. Who may not be able to carry a rider. So what happens, they end up dead. We had a lot of people around here that use to breed to any old horse. Then we had so many horses that could not do a thing. Some turned out to be a good driving horse, some where shot. So if I where you, I would save for some time and get a better breeding. So you can have one more good foal out of her that could be your future riding horse.


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

I don't know too much about TWH's and so I don't think it would be fair for me to judge any of these horses - I'm also no conformational expert. If you really want to breed your mare, it's not my business to try and convince you not to or ask questions about your finances. Breeding at 18 years old isn't a huge deal. I've known many breeders who breed their mares into their 20's. As long as she's healthy, she should be fine. I personally like the last two studs you posted, but only for the fact that someone took the time to take some decent pictures.

However, I think you can only glean so much from a picture and if you really want to get a good idea about these studs, it would be a good idea to see them in person before making a decision. There are some pictures of my mare, taken from a bad angle or where she's just standing awkwardly, where she looks like a pot-bellied mule. In person however, that is not the case. Take someone with you who is knowledgeable about conformation to go see these studs. You can also get a better idea about their temperament and movement as well that is difficult to get from pictures or videos off the internet. Just remember, that the stallion owners are only going to advertise what they want you to see. 

Good luck with your stallion search!


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

I don't think you really understand how much breeding costs. The actual stud fee is peanuts compared to pregnancy vet visits, ultrasounds, breeding soundness exams, prenatal shots, testing for diseases of mare and stallion, gelding the foal if a colt, registering the foal, and vet care for the mare and foal should something go wrong. When you do it correctly, breeding costs thousands. The stud fee is a drop in the bucket.

Breeding is a crapshoot. You could get the best traits from each parent or the worst. When your sire and dam are mediocre at best, even if the foal miraculously received the best traits from each parent, he will still be a very average horse. In my mind, it is incredibly irresponsible to bring a horse into the world with no advantage over other horses at having a good quality of life.

Your mare has not done anything to warrant breeding her. The stallions are not breeding material, and there is no purpose for this foal past what you can pick up at a local auction without creating another mouth to feed.

Please just think this over. Breeding should be left to the experts and the horses that have excellent conformation and have proven themselves without a doubt in one area or another, be it showing, ranch work, etc.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

I just had 3 healthy foals born in the last 6 weeks. Since I own my stallion and the mares, the cost for all 3 including extra feed and supplements was way under 1,000 $.
I do not give any extra shots just make sure the mares have been given their annuals 6-4 weeks before foaling.
If I did have the mares US and gave those shots I dont find necessary the 3 foals would still cost me only about 1,000.
You do not have to spend thousands to get a healthy foal.
if you find you must for your own peace of mind then so be it. Shalom


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

dbarabians said:


> You do not have to spend thousands to get a healthy foal.


If you are lucky you don't for sure, mares get bred and produce healthy foals all the time

BUT

Sh1t happens, where there is live stock there is dead stock, horses at the best of times are money pits, and when things go wrong you can start auctioning off body parts to pay for it.

Every foaling season I read of sadly lost foals, and sick and dying mares because people wont/can't/ or don't realize they need to call the vet. I agree, when I had my own mares and a stallion life was simple, costs could be kept down, but*sigh* you know that foals only decide to arrive and need help on long weekends or out of hours, it is always a premium cost vet call.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

DB ultrasounds are essential to check for twining... Not doing so is a gross oversight IMPO. The loss of the mares and/or foal(s) due to something that can be prevented (such as US at 14-16 days post breeding for twins) is negligent.


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

DB I'm a little stunned that you suggest people forgo US, that at the very least is one of the major things that need to be done with breeding.

Glad it's worked out for you to skimp, but please for the love of everything, do not recommend people not US, and skimp what pregnant mares actually do need.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Where did I not suggest anyone US? I do if my mares are bred to outside stallions and the mares bred to my stallion must be US to comply with the Breeding Contract.
Skimp? I can assure you it is not about money and I am far from cheap.
I owe no one a thin dime and make more than most people from my inheritance, rental properties, investments, retirement , and a job that pays far more than an average salary.
My horses are my hobby and do not have to make a dime to support all 31 of them.
I have been breeding horses for decades and my family for generations. if i choose to take the risk of my mares, twinning, which by the way is extremely rare, thats my business.
it is my breeding program and i will put its successful breedings up against anyone elses. Shalom


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

DB you are implying in your posts that there is nothing wrong with not vaccinating, US, and in general cutting costs on mare care, which IMPO is completely asinine.


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

I have watched this thread and now I am going to chime in mostly because I think often times the badness of breeding is over looked. The risk of twins while rare, is devastating. We can prevent this distress with an ultrasound so thats worth it. I am also a fan of AI so I am all about ultrasound to determine follicle size. I have personally seen enough horses have their heads/ brains removed and sent to the state lab because some owner did not vaccinate. I like my horses head on his neck so we vaccinate. I like my foals to get colostrum with the antibodies necessary. I like it when the mare is milked out and the foal gets colostrum so we don't have to deal with failure of passive immunity. 

I have seen enough foals die and mares get really sick to be sort of twice shy on breeding. The most recent was a fetotomy, where the foal died in utero and was taken out in sections. His head was a section, then his neck, shoulder/front legs a section it was a mess and a horrible thing. I don't say this to be morbid. I say this so that people weigh the risks because malpresentation is a risk and you roll the dice every time you breed. I would not roll the dice on the stud presented here, their stud fee alone indicates a lesser quality. That said, the OP did not ask for my opinions on whether or not to breed. What folks do with their own horse is their business and its not mine. I respect their decisions even if I may not agree with them. I wish the OP good luck with her mare and future foal. 

That said of the stallions presented and knowing little about this breed. I would probably possibly go with the pinto. Something about the third ones lower legs strikes me as funny. I don't care much for the front end on the first. Then again, I also find it hard to evaluate horses that are parked out like that.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

NDappy we may not agree on certain practices but I care for my horses very well.
I along with most breeders that I know, especially those that run stallions with mares, do NOT US their mares due to the low risk of twins. 
i have bred over 50 foals of my own successfully. If I choose not to worry about twins that is my perogative and far from asinine.
What I find ridiculous is the people that read something on the internet then think it is written in stone.
If you worry about twins get an US, Its that simple. I do not and can assure everyone i wont lose any sleep over it.
I will continue doing things my way. Like several of the big name ranches that raise lots of foals a year and win the AQHA Best of the Remuda awards. 
My mares recieve their annual vaccinations then again 4 - 6 weeks before they are due. That works for me.
As for having money for any emergency during foaling, that is not something that I have to worry about. The funds are always readily available. Shalom


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

I dont condone breeding a 19 year old mare. Your mare is getting old, and at her age pregnancy is a risk. Has she foaled before ( sorry if you have already stated this). Stud 1 or 4. Those lighter colored horses are off somehow , maybe better care is in order, even though you said not to critique the stallions, they need some Food. Usually with twins, one is absorbed by the mare, and the Vet can feel two , and 'pop' one. 
If you insist on breeding, have your mare checked by a Vet prior to breeding, be sure to keep her fed and vaccinated while preggers.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Allow me to clarify some of my statements.
OP if I were you and I was breeding that mare, I would do everything to ensure there are no complications.
You are inexperienced and that mare is 19. She has not foaled in a few years.
Even if you have the mare US and bought all the shots suggested yourself the cost of this foal would still be less than a 1,000$.
You need to ensure that mare has adequate nutrition. She is not a mare in her prime foaling if you do breed her. She is an aged mare and will require that you monitor her condition closely.
The other posters have very good points. Listen to their advice.
If that mare did twin could you afford the extra money to pay for the complications due to foaling twins and the care if one or both lived?
I can understand the caution others have about twining with your financial situation and experience level being safe is better than being sorry. Shalom


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I'm not going to comment on the mare or the stallions as I know nothing about that breed at all.
What I will say as someone who's family bred horses, worked on a yard that bred horses and have bred horses myself is that things do go wrong, mares can die and get sick same with foals and even with a healthy pregnancy and a healthy foal the costs soon mount up and you really do need to start out with a good bank balance for an emergency fund to cover all eventualities and a good weekly income. 
Even with a cheap or free stud by the time the youngster is old enough to do anything with you could have saved all the money its cost you so far and go out and buy a horse that looks the way you want it too and behaves the way you want it too and be financially better off.
Your mare suffers with arthritis already so is it really fair to put her through the pressures of carrying a foal? she's a nice enough sort but she isn't what I'd call fantastic and so worth the risk
I know you are determined but you would do better to put this dream on one side until you're older and in a better situation money wise


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## Britt (Apr 15, 2008)

Ok, going back through and trying to answer a few of the questions here...

Yes, she has had a foal before, seven years ago. I still own him, too.

If something were to happen, my vet and I could, I'm sure, work something out payment wise. My vet is quite reasonable.

There's a retired, experienced TWH breeder who lives within walking distance of my place. He's been a close family friend all my life and has taught me a lot. He has never done an ultrasound on any of his pregnant mares, rarely ever had to have a vet out for emergencies, never has had twins born, and has always done his own vaccinations and he's never had any problems, plus he's bred his mares well into their twenties with no complications. If something arises, he would be available to help, even though he's older and doesn't breed horses anymore (that I know of, lol). Of course, if complications arise, I would still call the vet out as well.

My mare would be confirmed in foal by the vet at ninety days, at which time, if she was carrying twins, I'd assume they'd be found then and one would be pinched off.

I also do intend on speaking to the vet prior to breeding her and seeing if he has any concerns. If he does have valid concerns regarding her age or arthritis, or anything else, then I won't breed her. If he thinks I shouldn't, then I won't breed her.

She may not have 'perfect' conformation, but as a trail horse, she's got the perfect mindset and as a trail-horse, she is definitely what I'd want to breed for. She may not be a show horse, but I'm mostly a trail-rider anyway.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Britt said:


> My mare would be confirmed in foal by the vet at ninety days, at which time, if she was carrying twins, I'd assume they'd be found then and one would be pinched off.


Pinching a twin can only be done very early in the pregnancy. I believe 18 days gestation is the latest, but I could be off by a couple days only. 

While she may not have perfect conformation (no horse does), but conformation isn't only important for the show ring. It is important for natural movement and prolonged soundness which is what everyone wants when breeding for any discipline. And even 2 horses of excellent temperament can produce an ill tempered foal, so breeding for both temperament and conformation is ideal. 

If you are set on these stallions and your mare for breeding, current pictures would make a better presentation. Any pictures of stallions while they are young and growing are very deceptive. They haven't filled out, finished growing or muscled out. And while they park out for pictures as part of the breed presentation, a natural square stand would be helpful for seeing how they would suit your mare :wink:


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought you were only able to pinch off a twin extremely early in pregnancy, like within the first month. I could be wrong and can't look it up right now, but that is the impression I was under. I think at 90 days you would have to abort both.

EDIT: Sorry to be repetitive. My computer is slow. What SD said.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

It's recommended to check for twining 14-16 days post breeding as after the 16 day mark you are more likely to lose both foals attempting to eliminate one (as far as I can recall).


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Personally I would never take the risk of not US to check for twins. My mare is a maiden and she was US at 14 days to check for twins and again a few weeks later to confirm still in foal. A friend bred their maiden mare to the same stallion and she was found to have twins at 14 days and one was pinched successfully. So around here at least twinning isn't that rare. Have heard of a few friends who have had to have one pinched.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

90 days into a pregnancy is too late to do anything.
If you are only concerned about the mare being in foal leave her at the stallions place for at least another heat cycle.
Britt, you have a lot going against you with this breeding. Your inexperience IMO is the most troubling.
Why not pay the vet to US at 14 to 18 days when something can be done if you are going to spend the money anyway?
Kills two birds with one stone. She is confirmed in foal and twin free. Shalom


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