# Correction with a crop is abuse???



## Chickenoverlord (Apr 30, 2013)

I don't think so. Hitting with a lunge whip? I would have beaten the woman with it, but I have whopped horses with various things so many times I can't even count them. I hav used crops, dressage whips, buckets, brooms, fists, my teeth (once), hay bales, etc. I don't go around beating horses, but if my friends horse (he is 17 hh, I'm a whopping 110 lbs) is trying to kick me I am going to teach him a lesson with whatever is handy (my horse learned long ago that a feed bucket upside the head is painful, and is now an angel lol).


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

Personally I don't consider it abuse. Then again, I don't see giving a smack/light punch as abuse either so long as it is to correct a behavior and you're not chasing down the horse beating it. In my experience I've come across some horses that are downright dangerous and some of the things I've done to get them off of me I'm sure many would call abuse, but the horses never quit coming up to me in the field and were never any worse for ware after the incident (though extreme cases call for extreme measures imo). 

I was given great advice by the horse people I've been around that said: It's a horse. It weighs close to 1000 pounds, deals with kicks every day that would break a humans body and can plow through hot wire without looking back. To really and honestly hurt them you'd have to be trying to do so. They understand the difference between a punishment for bad behavior (like a crop/smack) and abuse. To them it's the humans way of putting force behind their "kicks/bites". 

Bottom line for me is that they weigh more than I do, they will win any fight I try to pick with my bare hands (and even with equipment) and can kill me with little to no thought. While I don't want to beat a horse into submission or abuse it, if I feel they're going to kill or hurt me/themselves I have no problem getting a little rough, but then backing off when they behave.


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## Lucky1inKy (Sep 22, 2013)

I think its very situational. In ur instance it corrected the behaviour....therefore not abusive at all in my opinion. Its like when u spank a child. And im not talking with a belt or harshly. ...not trying to stir up that debate. But physical correction done for the SAKE of correction and NOT out of anger can be a very useful tool.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

If anything it's more "abuse" as a leg reinforcement! Disciplining him is self defense!

But seriously, anyone who says that I would disregard for any horse knowledge, obviously they don't know. Any person with half a brain (not emotion) can tell what's "abusive" you may not like something but calling abuse is bs. And as far as "not liking" I completely agree you did the right thing and I'm sure most *competent* horse people would. Tough love is necessary and applies to all aspects of horse ownership.


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## mrstorres2566 (Apr 25, 2013)

Yogiwick said:


> If anything it's more "abuse" as a leg reinforcement! Disciplining him is self defense!
> 
> But seriously, anyone who says that I would disregard for any horse knowledge, obviously they don't know. Any person with half a brain (not emotion) can tell what's "abusive" you may not like something but calling abuse is bs. And as far as "not liking" I completely agree you did the right thing and I'm sure most *competent* horse people would. Tough love is necessary and applies to all aspects of horse ownership.


This was my exact thought. I disciplined him because he was showing an EXTREMELY dangerous behavior while I was on his back, and if it stops this behavior and protects me (or whoever is riding him at the time) then so be it.


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## Lucky1inKy (Sep 22, 2013)

I'll tell u one thing...growing up...at the barn where I rode...a friend of mines parents had just bought her a 25, 000 dollar horse. His name was Priceless...I will never forget it. 

Anyway...she went to mount him...the dead of winter...she had on several layers of clothes and a big jacket and he bent in towards her and took an absolute CHUNK out of her breast. 

Our trainer beat him from one end of the arena to the the other....over and over again. Ive never seen anything like it. We were teenagers at the time and it was just plain scary. I didnt think he was going to stop. But I tell you what. He never did it again. 

Probably one of my most vivid memories of riding in general. Was it right?? I dont know. But like I said. He never did it again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

If disciplining your horse with a crop is abuse, then I am a first-class horse abuser. I have used a crop to drive my gelding backward 90ft at a dead run for pawing at me and clipping me in the leg. I've also used it when he kicked out at me when I handled his hooves. If that makes me a "horse abuser" in someone else's eyes, so be it. At least I'm safe and my horse knows NEVER to repeat that behavior ever again or there will be hell to pay. 

People need to mind their own **** business and work on their own horses, unless specifically asked for help.

BTW, I had a rumor started about me at my old barn that I abused my horse because I cracked him across the hip with the flat of my hand for kicking at me when I was cleaning his feet. I know exactly who started the rumor and let me tell you, her horse was one of the worst-behaved horses on the property because she refused to reprimand her. She wouldn't even brush her properly because she was afraid the brush would hurt the horse. Yet she stood aside and did absolutely nothing when her jerk of a boyfriend literally beat her other mare bloody for not loading in a trailer (she'd only been on a trailer once before and it was a big, open gooseneck stock trailer, and they were trying to load her into a tiny, old two-horse straight load).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Sheesh, I must be an abuser too draft!!! 
I have absolutely no qualms about giving a solid wallop if the time is right. The horse is 500+kg, with teeth, hooves and a heck of a lot of muscle. I am all of 60kg, with a bit of muscle but not much else going for me for self defence. If my horse is going to try me own, I can assure you, I will leave welts if I have to. 
Why is a human responding to their horse taking a chunk out of them abuse, when in the paddock another horse would have kicked them to kingdom come? 

To me, abuse is nagging the horse. Not giving it positive direction. Forcing the horse to step up as a leader and then when it exerts its leadership on it's human, tapping it lightly or waggling a finger with a squeaky little 'no... bad horsey'. The poor horse has no idea what's going on, and has to make its own rules. Most horses are happy to have a leader, they WANT to be led, not to have to make the decisions. There was a study done somewhere (the details escape my mind right now) that showed the dominant, lead horses in a natural environment end up dying earlier, due to the constant stress that they are under. The more submissive horses tend to survive much longer as they know their place and have direction. 
If you need to give a firm whack, then by all means, do it. If it gets the desired outcome, then move on and forget it ever happened. The horse will be happier, and you will be happier.


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## DuckDodgers (May 28, 2013)

Popping your horse with a crop is abuse? Nah, not in my world. I've seen some stuff with the whip in the horse world that I consider abuse being well accepted, but definitely not this. Everyone has a different idea of what is good and bad training though.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Exactly. Either "abuse" the horse or put your life in danger, extreme yes, but not really an exaggeration.

When the horse comes in from turnout with welts and chunks missing from playing with his buddy... I wish people got it ugh.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Yogiwick said:


> Exactly. Either "abuse" the horse or put your life in danger, extreme yes, but not really an exaggeration.
> 
> When the horse comes in from turnout with welts and chunks missing from playing with his buddy... I wish people got it ugh.


I'd had one with a fractured rib from a well placed paddock buddy kick. I'd say she deserved it, she was a royal pain in the behind!!!


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

Abuse? No. The best way to get the desired result? Not always. As for instance the first time I tried to get my Ellie to cross a creek. (Narrow, deep with vertical sides creek in a meadow, so it had to be jumped over.) I tried riding her across for 10-15 minutes, no luck. My much more experienced friend tried the same, with assistance from her crop, same result. Got off, led her across and back a few times, and from then on she would go right over them. OTOH, the one time she tried a bite, she got a fist in the nose. 

I think the real question is whether you're using the crop to achieve an end, and getting results, or whether you're just using it to relieve your feelings.


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## mrstorres2566 (Apr 25, 2013)

jamesqf said:


> Abuse? No. The best way to get the desired result? Not always. As for instance the first time I tried to get my Ellie to cross a creek. (Narrow, deep with vertical sides creek in a meadow, so it had to be jumped over.) I tried riding her across for 10-15 minutes, no luck. My much more experienced friend tried the same, with assistance from her crop, same result. Got off, led her across and back a few times, and from then on she would go right over them. OTOH, the one time she tried a bite, she got a fist in the nose.
> 
> I think the real question is whether you're using the crop to achieve an end, and getting results, or whether you're just using it to relieve your feelings.


Oh no, I use to end a dangerous behavior. IE running sideways at objects or other horses, to rub me (or other riders) off, and ignoring every cue on the way. Now, with a swift whack of the crop he stopped before he slammed my knee into the fence (Again!) today.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I use my crop for discipline (1 hard smack) when the horse is disobedient (as in clearly knows what I want and is simply ignoring me and giving me attitude/being stubborn) or does something dangerous. I have only every used a crop on the ground for dangerous behavior. If a horse goes after me on the ground (where we are VERY vulnerable) that's really the only defense we humans have. I will not hesitate to give a horse several HARD smacks if they do something extreme such as bite (not nip) me. I teach my horses to make decisions. They don't HAVE to listen to me, they aren't forced, however they respect me and know if they choose to disrespect me there will be consequences. I've never had any horse I have worked with regularly display any dangerous behavior (bite/kick) and if they had it it doesn't stay long. We have tools to equalize us, yes we are smarter and should find ways around using them, but when it comes down to it we are 1/10th of their size. _You know you are a good horseman when you don't need to use your tools and the "threat" of the tools and similarly/ more importantly the respect a horse has for you instills obedience. _If a horse is acting up and you say their name loudly in "that" tone and they stop that should be all it takes. Your position is undisputed and you don't need to prove it. When it doesn't work there are tools to preserve our safety and, if need be, get us to that point.

TRAINING is FAIR and UNEMOTIONAL, ABUSE is NOT.

In almost all cases you will NOT actually hurt the horse unless you are trying to. As Katyy said, they hurt each other much more than we could ever hurt them. The few times I have REALLY gotten after a horse? They cower and shake and then are FINE and there is no physical or mental damage, just "aha, won't do that again"


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

For the record my horses are spoiled, though I expect them to earn that privilege, and will happily coming running to meet me. I don't have to discipline them (usually lol) because they know I'm in charge.

Anyways, back on topic.

I rode a mare once, not my horse had never even met the owner. I rode her western and she had a BAD habit of kicking when I reached under for the cinch (just picture it-obviously dangerous). I always did her cinch up carefully and rewarded her when she was good, but the ingrained habit didn't change. Finally had enough and grabbed the latigo (hope that's the right word) and hit her HARD. She didn't freak, had no mark, still liked me, and NEVER did that again.

There was another thread recently posted where the rider, in disciplining her horse, gave her a very minor injury. The horse was behaving in a very dangerous manner, the rider did what she felt she had to and felt badly after. I don't think any (normal person) would LIKE that, however as horse people we do what we have to do. Is that abuse? or tough love with a 1000lb+ animal?

Is it better to punish firmly once? or ineffectively multiple times then get hurt? While we do out best to love our horses when the situation calls for it discipline is necessary; to keep us safe, and indirectly give our horses a better life.

Ranting over, off to bed lol.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Yogiwick, once a horse IS at the point of knowing that you are in charge, then there is little to no need to discipline. But getting to that point, spoiling results in a dangerous or at least a very disrespectful horse. 
My 3 year old is quite spoilt now, I've had him since he was a weanling and he learnt very quickly that I was in charge. We much around in the paddock together now, he runs behind me and bucks and carries on, but the second he gets too close, he knows and backs off very quickly. 
His work in hand is excellent, he backs up when I walk backwards from well over 2m away from him, and steps forward when I do. Point at which part of his body I want to move over, and it moves. 
He's off for breaking this month, so it will be interesting to see how he manners on the ground translate to under saddle. He is quite cheeky, so I have no qualms in giving him a good whack if he needs it once I'm on him!


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## CheyRider (Nov 3, 2013)

I'm a bit concerned about how many of you have encountered dangerous horses. Whatever happened to those horses that made them attack people?! It usually takes a lot to make an animal as gentle as a horse go against people... exceptions exist, of course, but reading these posts it sounds more like you're working with lions. Not saying anyone here did anything wrong to these horses, but in most cases, something must have gone seriously wrong in these animals' lives. I mean, I've known quite a few horses that would start nipping trying to get treats if they weren't (gently!) put in their place when they first got saucy, and some horses with a sour attitude, but that's something quite different from outright attacking people.
I do not believe in using a crop in order to get a result (when the horse doesn't do what I want it to do). There are better ways to train than with pain, and pain it is, when you use the crop any more than a very light flick.
BUT I sure believe that in the situations most of you describe here, if you come across a horse that wants to hurt you, you need to fight back as hard as you can, with whatever is at hand, and a crop is particularly useful since it can indeed inflict such pain. I would never punish such a horse for minutes though, or chasing it around whipping it, that IS cruelty. The horse does not know what it is getting hurt for, punishment is only effective if given promptly.
And the horse that wasn't put it its place and just acts careless, doesn't respect a human's space? Yes, one nice smack usually works wonders there as well. I agree it is better to put your point across firmly once, rather than being nice for too long and having a harder time getting rid of the behavior later on. However, it would be best not to let it come to that, when they start invading your space a firm word or hand sign is usually enough.
So, for actual disrespect and aggressive behavior, I would use a whip (I don't have one, only deal with my ow horses these days and they are friendly and sweet animals). For "correction" during riding or groundwork, no. But then I don't spank my children either, it's actually illegal in my country...


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## Stan (Aug 25, 2011)

Lucky1inKy said:


> I think its very situational. In ur instance it corrected the behaviour....therefore not abusive at all in my opinion. Its like when u spank a child. And im not talking with a belt or harshly. ...not trying to stir up that debate. But physical correction done for the SAKE of correction and NOT out of anger can be a very useful tool.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You would not want to get caught spanking a child in my country, its a criminal offence, and imprisonment is one of the options the court has as a sanction.

So if hiting a child is frowned upon why not the same to animals but to add a further angle to my responce I have hit a horse on two occasions and I will continue to respond in a like manner on only these two events.

If a horse tries to bite me I will hit it on the lips with a fist. Just once. And imediatly. However I inadvertantly was responsible for the bite response so I ended up hitting the horse for a behaviour I had inadvertantly started. 
If the horse tries to kick me and misses I will wack its leg with the walking stick I carry but only if it is instant. 

I have had the experience of my horse trying to bite. She did not do it again. The same horse kicked out at me and missed I did not miss She also never did that again. However that is horse behavour, trying to be the boss.

If one watches the horse you can tell when something may be coming and head it off. One of my horses was getting annoyed at me and she raised her hind leg under her as a warning to me. I growled at her she put the leg down. They know what they are doing, and will warn generally before taking action. In a lot of cases it is a matter of spotting the warning signals early enough to avoid getting hurt and to be able to correct the horse without violence. They are smarter that we give them credit for.

My present horse Bugs is a conman and a joker. He also thinks.


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## CandyCanes (Jul 1, 2013)

Well... Handcuff me if you must!


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## Saskia (Aug 26, 2009)

I don't think it's "abuse" in itself, but I don't really understand the point of it. 

It is used to reinforce legs aids - I've never thought that it was particularly useful but nor have I ever needed one, but I can understand it. 

But to be honest I can't understand it as discipline, mainly because in my opinion it's not really reflected anywhere in training. 

In comparison to a kick in a paddock the result isn't too bad but it's not like a kick in the paddock. Horses don't kick each other when they do something bad, they do it as a "go away now" thing. If the horse doesn't move fast enough they get kicked. If I was going to use some kind of discipline on the ground it would be in the situation where I want them to "go away now". I'll carry lunge whips into paddocks when horses are bossy and if I used them they mean "go away now". I'll be tough when a horse is aggressive, when they try to kick, when they're really in my space but the response I want is for them to move away. 

Using a crop, ie using pain to discipline (and it does hurt, that's the point of it, but I don't think it does "harm") the rider doesn't want the horse to "go away now". It's not something that is just a stronger version of an aid. It's not something you've taught on the ground - generally you teach them to move away from pressure which escalates until they do... using a crop, I don't understand really what's it meant to do. It seems to me to be a punishment that doesn't teach or offer the horse the opportunity to learn.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

The purpose of a crop or whip is to give the human the option of escalating when a horse refuses to do or to stop some behavior.

If your horse knows the cues, but refuses to move forward at a light leg squeeze, do you dismount and call it a day? Or do you escalate? What if you sink your heels in hard, and the horse ignores you? Do you call it a day?

When I took lessons a few years back, the instructor let me spend 30 minutes kicking a horse as hard as I could. The horse did not care. At all. Just walked. 

Then she handed me a crop, and told me to squeeze light, then firm, then wallop the horse on the rump. A few seconds later, we were trotting. For the remainder of the lesson, he responded to light leg cues. And everyone who rode him experienced the same thing. At some point, he had decided that he could ignore kicking, no matter how hard. And then the human would give up. But if you had a crop...that was different. And if you were willing to USE the crop...well, then he might as well get to work!

I'll add that ideally, the horse would never learn to ignore hard kicking. And ideally, my mare would never have learned how to ignore a snaffle. But once a horse learns it can ignore your input, you either give up or find a way to make the input worth listening to.

Our gelding Trooper has ZERO use for a crop or whip. He will do his best for you without question. But Mia is a different horse - more independent, more dominant and more willful. She is also smarter, and quicker to spot a weakness...


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

Hitting without cause is abuse. Going overboard is abuse. A properly timed and administered correction is not. 

In the words of one of my favorite horse trainers "Never punish more than the mistake."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Stan (Aug 25, 2011)

CandyCanes said:


> Well... Handcuff me if you must!


Are you sure.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

bsms said:


> The purpose of a crop or whip is to give the human the option of escalating when a horse refuses to do or to stop some behavior.
> 
> If your horse knows the cues, but refuses to move forward at a light leg squeeze, do you dismount and call it a day? Or do you escalate? What if you sink your heels in hard, and the horse ignores you? Do you call it a day?


Exactly. You don't use a crop to _hit_ for training. If you use it (correctly) to hit that is discipline. Of course that is related but I think the difference is what it comes down to. The crop either says "stop ignoring me" or it says "do NOT do that again". It seems like we mostly agree that those are the proper uses of a crop.


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

CheyRider said:


> I'm a bit concerned about how many of you have encountered dangerous horses. Whatever happened to those horses that made them attack people?! It usually takes a lot to make an animal as gentle as a horse go against people... exceptions exist, of course, but reading these posts it sounds more like you're working with lions. Not saying anyone here did anything wrong to these horses, but in most cases, something must have gone seriously wrong in these animals' lives. I mean, I've known quite a few horses that would start nipping trying to get treats if they weren't (gently!) put in their place when they first got saucy, and some horses with a sour attitude, but that's something quite different from outright attacking people.


CheyRider in my experience at least the horses that I've had to get this rough with was an untouched horse for 12+ years that was in training and decided to attack because he hated it, young horses (even older ones) who had no manners and were dangerous because of it, and the most vicious/persistant horse I've had to deal with was a horse who had never been smacked/punished severely enough. Her owner was into NH and refused to use a harder smack to teach her NO. The mare kicked, bit, reared, and would try and stomp you into the ground. Five sessions of tough love later she was a sweet little angel. None of these horses were abused or had any trauma (aside from the untouched gelding). Sometimes we like to anthropomorphize them a little too much in this area. I've always thought that you have the horses who will shy away from punishing others with kicks and merely threaten - then get replaced by another horse in the totem pole, and then you have the horses that will give a sound thrashing once in a while and keeps their position; I would like to be the horse that dishes it out. Getting kicked is no fun. ;-)


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## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

mrstorres2566 said:


> Ok, so I posted earlier in the riding forum, that I used a crop to correct my horses disrespect issues. It worked like a charm, somebody (no one from here) said it was abuse. Now, it was a firm tap (smack, whatever lol) but it's nothing compared to another horses flying hooves. This person said a crop is ONLY for a leg reinforcement. I KNOW I didn't hurt him, and you better believe he straightened right up, so what is the problem?
> 
> Last week I saw another owner whipping their horse with a lunge whip (HARD! Hard enough to leave welts!) because their horse wouldn't lunge properly. That was abuse in my opinion. And our BO told them that it was to NEVER happen on her property again.
> 
> Anyways, riding crop for correction...abuse or not? Thoughts?


 Everything we do with horses has someone out there calling it abuse. Stalls, shoes, riding -- you can find claims of how abusive all the regular stuff we do is.

Honestly a person really should be able to determine what is and isn't abuse. Someone calls correcting a horse for biting abuse. A smack is not abuse. Taking him out back, high tying his head and beating him is abuse.

Riding with a crop is not necessarily abuse. If you're using it and leaving marks - that's abuse. To reinforce your leg with a tap? No.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## faiza425 (Dec 21, 2012)

Yogiwick said:


> Is it better to punish firmly once? or ineffectively multiple times then get hurt? While we do out best to love our horses when the situation calls for it discipline is necessary; to keep us safe, and indirectly give our horses a better life.


^^THIS^^

I can't tell you how many people I see giving little weak tugs on the lead rope and saying quietly, "Stop." every day. Think of how much better off they would both be if they just took charge and firmed up with that horse! They would be much safer, and the horse would be much happier because it knows who is in charge and that they don't have to lead.

There's a horse at my barn who is known for being very pushy and poorly behaved. The dentist came out the other day and kicked the snot out of him for giving him flack. By the end of the appointment the horse was happier and more relaxed than I'd ever seen him. 

Too many people are afraid to get after their horses (and children, but that's a whole other matter) for bad behavior. Not only in fear of what others will think (horse abuser!) but in fear that 'their horse won't like them'. Trust me, a horse likes to know who's in control, and they don't want it to be them.

Let me tell you something - abuse and punishment are separated by two things, emotion and motive. When I was a kid and I disobeyed my parents, I got spanked. Not more than I deserved, not out of anger, and not for no reason. And I very rarely tried to repeat that same behavior because I knew if I did what I would get. For my action, there was an equal, natural reaction. 

Now, if a horse in my care misbehaves, he gets whatever punishment he deserves. If he tries to bite me (for no reason), I will smack him into next week, and he knows what to expect if he tries it again. Horse knows who's in charge, and I won't get a chunk taken out of me.

Abuse is when a horse does not understand what is being asked of it or that the behavior is not desirable, if the horse is doing those behaviors out of pain or if the punishment is excessive or unnecessary. Like beating a horse with a lunge whip. Also, if you bring your emotions into the punishment (anger, frustration, annoyance).

There's my rant for the day. :lol:


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

mrstorres2566 said:


> Ok, so I posted earlier in the riding forum, that I used a crop to correct my horses disrespect issues. It worked like a charm, somebody (no one from here) said it was abuse. Now, it was a firm tap (smack, whatever lol) but it's nothing compared to another horses flying hooves. This person said a crop is ONLY for a leg reinforcement. I KNOW I didn't hurt him, and you better believe he straightened right up, so what is the problem?
> 
> Last week I saw another owner whipping their horse with a lunge whip (HARD! Hard enough to leave welts!) because their horse wouldn't lunge properly. That was abuse in my opinion. And our BO told them that it was to NEVER happen on her property again.
> 
> Anyways, riding crop for correction...abuse or not? Thoughts?


Far as I'm concerned, you clearly understand the difference between use and abuse

The person that left the welts on the horse for not lunging properly, needed that buggy whip used on them.

Believe me, there's a "TWO strikes and you're out" policy in my barn, with one of my horses. He's a con artist bar none and will take five miles if you give him an inch. He gets smacked, pinched, poked, yelled at, the buggy whip smacked across the metal T-posts, more times than I can count every month. He's got more discipline in the 17+ years I've owned him than all my Keeper horses in my entire life of having horses.

I'd like to loan him out for a week to the person that thinks Riding crops are only for leg reinforcement. I will come and visit her in the hospital, just as soon as I get The Intimidator back in his own pasture

If she's old enough and has them, I'll bet her children are Holy Terrors, too:shock:


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## CheyRider (Nov 3, 2013)

And I guarantee that the kids who are used to physical punishment are the worst brats whenever their parents turn their backs on them...
Respect is rarely won by violence, only fearful obedience... and isn't it that in the horse world also, the leader is usually the horse that doesn't have to fight, since he holds natural authority?


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

CheyRider said:


> And I guarantee that the kids who are used to physical punishment are the worst brats whenever their parents turn their backs on them...
> Respect is rarely won by violence, only fearful obedience... and isn't it that in the horse world also, the leader is usually the horse that doesn't have to fight, since he holds natural authority?


I was spanked as a child. I've had a wooden spoon broken across my butt. I've held welts left from a metal hanger so bad that I couldn't sit down to use the bathroom. I've had my mouth washed out with liquid soap because my mom *thought* I said a bad word. I am by no stretch of the imagination a "brat." Out of my three siblings and I, I was given the most trust by my parents, including being allowed to set my own curfew. I am also the most respectful out of my family. It is not fear-based respect. I genuinely respect my parents (and those around me). I will not sugar-coat it and say that I deserved m
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CandyCanes (Jul 1, 2013)

Stan said:


> Are you sure.


Positive. I give my horse a whack on a regular basis... Lazy git. Lock me up n throw away the key!


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I was spanked as a child. I've had a wooden spoon broken across my butt. I've held welts left from a metal hanger so bad that I couldn't sit down to use the bathroom. I've had my mouth washed out with liquid soap because my mom *thought* I said a bad word. I am by no stretch of the imagination a "brat." Out of my three siblings and I, I was given the most trust by my parents, including being allowed to set my own curfew. I am also the most respectful out of my family. It is not fear-based respect. I genuinely respect my parents (and those around me). I will not sugar-coat it and say that I deserved m
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Stupid phone died on me.

I don't think that it's that we deal with dangerous horses. It's that we won't take any nonsense from our horses. They outweigh us by as nmuch as ten times. Things they would do to another horse and not think twice about it could potentially kill a human, so they need to know what is and isn't allowed.

For instance, the example I gave of my gelding pawing at me and clipping my leg. He was a 15.2hh 130bs 3yo at the time. If I hadn't been moving anyway so the blow glanced off my leg, he could very well have broken my leg. You can get that when I reprimanded him, I was after him before his foot was even back on the ground. He is a very dead-head type horse, so simply giving him a jerk on the halter wouldn't have done anything. I wanted him to think his world was ending because he hurt me. The punishment fit the crime and he has NEVER tried to paw again, even when there isn't anyone around him. He does not fear me or the crop. I can wave it all around him and rub him all over with it and he just stands there. If he feared me, he wouldn't come running when he sees me and wouldn't stand perfectly without being tied while I worked on cleaning his sheath. 

I'm honestly curious to see what you think I should have done when he pawed me, CheyRider.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CheyRider (Nov 3, 2013)

Incitatus32, not antropomorphizing at all, rather trying to understand the horses' behavior. As for the aggressive horses you describe, maybe the training (yours or the one they received prior to meeting you) wasn't ideal for the horses that they felt so threatened they went to the attack-strategy. Not all methods work for all horses, not all trainers work for all horses. Nothing wrong with the trainer, nothing wrong with the horse, yet sometimes, if it's a misfit, the result might be desaster.
Our first horse was a rescue horse that had lived with bulls as sole companions for many years. She did not behave like a normal horse at all, and she would show aggression if she didn't like things. She was 12 when we got her and had not learned anything a horse needs to learn. Our riding teacher back then was a really great guy, I still think he was awsome with horses, bought sour horses from the big sports and retrained them to be great school horses. But our horse did not get along with him, hated his guts. When she was new in the barn, he wanted to show her to some people and went into her stall. She attacked him, he had to jump over the side wall to save himself. When she only heard his voice she'd get excited. He once had to hit her over the back with a broom (and we would never have complained about it, it was self defense), made her hate him more.
This horse never did anything to us other than nudge us with her head (one of the few things we couldn't get out of her for the rest of her life). We trained her to be a sweet trail horse, we were able to put little kids on her back and she'd watch out for them. She DID get a few licks with a crop over the years since she DID behave like a bull at times and tried to just run people over (potentially dangerous disrespect), but most of the time you had to treat her gently, with little pressure. I remember another occasion where some "more experienced" girls tried to show us how to lunge her (with pressure and "do as I say") and she charged at them, as well. Still that horse was so good if treated right that my parents let me trail ride her by myself as soon as she was halfway trained. 
Another example, my mare, when she was first trained at age 3, started to rear and seemed to be dominant and dangerous. Curiously, when I trained her with the help of a Parelli-oriented trainer years later, she was the sweetest horse from the start (I'm not a fan of Parelli, but it worked good for her). She seemed to just have outgrown it. However, once she got very excited when I walked her out in the fields near herds of other horses. In order to get respect, I flicked the rope pretty hard and sent her back. After two or three times of this, she started to rear (just a little). I was quite shocked. When I thought about it later, I figured I had actually overdone it. She is a very sensitive horse, and what I did was too much. She had no escape, and she felt threatened, so she went to rearing.
The trainer told me another sad story of how at the ranch she used to work at in Canada, they sacked out the young horses in the round pen. Like it or not, it worked great for pretty much all the horses. Except one, who was part Arabian and had a personality much different from the average Quarter. He worked himself into a frenzy, tried to escape and broke a leg. Different horses, different characers, different treatment required. Some need a firmer hand, some need more sensitive handling. I seriously doubt any horse's problems derive from not getting enough beatings in their life, though. Not enough leadership, yes. I'm not the perfect leader (far from it!), so my horses show disrespectful behavior sometimes, like not getting out of the way right away or "discussing" if they want to do what I ask them to. But I wouldn't try to beat that respect into them. Rather, I try to work on being a better leader to them. 
Okay, I hope that was not too much blabla and I got my point across, it's getting late over here...


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## CheyRider (Nov 3, 2013)

I had to look up "paw" first, this is not my first language. Do I get it right, he tried to kick you? Then good for you that you showed him fiercely that this was not acceptable. That's what I'd say, DraftyAiresMum. Not saying anything against self defense. Someone said it quite well, horses will kick and bite each other if they want to tell the other horse to move away and quit it right now, and for this exact message we should "kick and bite" as well. I have actually kicked my pony, who's always the boss in any herd, once when he invaded my space. He looked at me quite puzzled, but he got it.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

^^(Pawing is when a horse "kicks" repeatedly at the ground, say when they are impatient or hungry. While not directly dangerous it can be extremely dangerous if they hit you accidently or are trying to strike (kick out in front) at you, and is a disrespectful behavior in and of itself. I'm sure you've seen this behavior before, try youtube-ing it.)

We also need to think of all those little things that escalate. A little pushiness and nip at feeding that turns into a horse taking a chunk out of your arm because they want food. Appropriate discipline at the time keeps things from needing severe discipline. If a pushy horse hits you with his foot you'd better get after him before he just decides to run you over!


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

And I think we all agree that violence has not place in training.
Horses interact in a "violent" manner and humans must do what they need to when faced with a much larger "violent" animal. Beating is abuse, correction *when needed* is not.
I think some people have trouble with a correction being physical. Look at how horses think and act before putting emotions (which have no place in training) into play.


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## SEAmom (Jan 8, 2011)

Man, if smacking my house with a crop/dressage whip is abuse, then I should taken away and locked up. I was just abusing my horse this afternoon. 

No, if you're disciplining your horse and the discipline is equal to the "crime", the there's no abuse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Stan (Aug 25, 2011)

CandyCanes said:


> Positive. I give my horse a whack on a regular basis... Lazy git. Lock me up n throw away the key!


Can't do that cause we would have to feed you, and then there is the exercise issue, the cleaning of the cell and on the list goes so you are out running free with your hands handcuffed.


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I was spanked as a child. I've had a wooden spoon broken across my butt. I've held welts left from a metal hanger so bad that I couldn't sit down to use the bathroom. I've had my mouth washed out with liquid soap because my mom *thought* I said a bad word. I am by no stretch of the imagination a "brat." Out of my three siblings and I, I was given the most trust by my parents, including being allowed to set my own curfew. I am also the most respectful out of my family. It is not fear-based respect. I genuinely respect my parents (and those around me). I will not sugar-coat it and say that I deserved m
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This sounds almost exactly like me and my upbringing. :lol: I remember one time I bit my grandmother while I was being a brat and got a wooden spoon to the knuckles/shoulders. As kids we were taught that EVERYTHING deserves an inherent respect and that not giving it that has consequences. I have respect for my elders not because of fear, but because they earned it by picking the right form of punishment at the right time to dissuade me of a habit. I gained respect and trust for them because I knew that it wasn't abuse, and that I still had their love because the punishments were swift and to the point. 

Anyhow, Cheyrider, I do agree with you that not all training methods/trainers work for every horse but I found these cases to be a bit suspicious when they cleared up after the second good smack or so. :wink: Violence isn't my go to for correction but if I think that what's gonna stop them is that then they're getting that once they get it then hey - I don't have to reprimand them anymore, and I get a safe environment for the horse and me. In the horse herd the leader gains his power by having squabbles with the others. If they do something wrong or irk him off you can bet that he's going to give them a good kick or bite to show them how to behave around him.


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## SammysMom (Jul 20, 2013)

In the situation you described, no way. I'm such a gently disposed person I've been known to apologize to inanimate objects for bumping into them, and even I use a crop. Last week Sam was trying to bulldoze me for the apple in my locker, and after he ignored my pushing his nose away, I gave him a hard snap on the shoulder with the leather end of my lead rope. Guess who couldn't have cared less and continued his search for snacks like nothing happened until I backed him up and used Mean Mom Voice to make him stay put. No way you're convincing me I just committed an act of abuse when my darling pest didn't even remove himself from my grill long enough to pout. 

Like the others said, hitting an animal out of anger is abusive, and it really upsets me to see people hit horses repeatedly with crops after a bad jump, to go faster, etc., but there's nothing noble in getting huffy when good horse owners correct their horses.


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## CandyCanes (Jul 1, 2013)

Stan said:


> Can't do that cause we would have to feed you, and then there is the exercise issue, the cleaning of the cell and on the list goes so you are out running free with your hands handcuffed.


Awwww.... Oh well! Not to be deterred *runs off like a lunatic*


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

CheyRider said:


> And I guarantee that the kids who are used to physical punishment are the worst brats whenever their parents turn their backs on them...
> 
> 
> > I have quite the opposite experiance, kids who have never had a smacked **** IMO tend to be far worse behaved. I've never met so many ill mannered, badly behaved, out of control children since the UK started frowning on smacking children.
> ...


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## Stan (Aug 25, 2011)

I believe you can train a horse without the use of a whip or crop being used. I reserve the right to use force when being bitten or kicked as I mentioned in an earlier post. That is when I will hit the horse. if the threat from the horse is violent. But I keep in mind, if I am getting angry, the horse already is.

Feeding or being monstered for tit bits by the horse is a learned behaviour and meany owners have been bitten because the horse could not get the choice bit of carrot out of the pocket of said owner. That started as an entertaining game and ends up with the horse getting hit.

My galding Bugs used to get all impatient when I entered the paddock with the feed bucket and went to the point of sticking his head into it while still closed. He would push and shove out of excitment to get at the food. Now he waits and knows the drill. Walk beside me but not in my space that is a yard seperation, when I stop he will walk on turn around and face me, Then I place the bucket for him to eat. It took three days to get him to calm down and do as I expected. No hitting just a stern growl untill he got the message. And when it comes to pushing him away if in my space I keep my thumb nail just proud of the flesh. It works.

As for hitting kids, in New Zealand it is a criminal offence and how do you reason with the WHY generation. Spare the rod and you spoil the child. There us a time when response works better than words but young kids are just the same as a horse limited ability to reason. Or they refuse too.

Ever noticed how having a horse is like having a teenager around again, always trying it on


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## CheyRider (Nov 3, 2013)

Well, I guess most here agree that potentially dangerous behavior in horses requires immediate action, and that can be a smack with a crop if needed... abuse is if done for the wrong reasons (like the horse doesn't do a maneuvre correctly), or excessively (like beating the horse through the whole corral, sorry, way too much and definitely just a panicky horse as a result that has forgotten what happened anyway).
Incitatus32, it sounds like you know what you're doing, and I'm sure if you come across enough horses, you do have some of the kind that you described.
My mare had troubles giving her hind hooves when I started working with her. She would pull them up too high and then make little kicking moves. I could have felt threatened I guess, since there was a chance she could hit me, and punish her for it. As it was, I thought that she might feel insecure with someone holding her legs, or that she might have balance problems or muscle stiffness. As she didn't aim at me doing it, I just told her no when she did it and practiced , making sure I stayed next to her with lots of room around us and not behind her when I lifted her legs. She learned she has nothing to fear, and now gives her hooves just fine. 
By the way, I had only one real accident with horses (crazy, I know, I'm very lucky I guess, and I'm blessed with a fast reaction), and that was, funnily enough, when I was told to use a crop on a pony to make her gallop faster, which resulted in her turning into an unstoppable torpedo and me being knocked off by a lowhanging branch against the head (wore helmet, luckily). 
Stan, it sounds like we have a similar way of handling horses, from what you write. 
Faye, I guess we had different experiences with kids then. I don't know if lack of physical punishment and worse behavior are cause and effect or just coincidential correlations, since this is also the generation where kids eat more processed foods than ever, watch more TV, are under more pressure in school.... all these things and many more might make them behave worse (if indeed they do - even the old Greeks complained about how bad youth behaved those days). But that is, of course, completely off-topic...


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