# Former carriage horse retraining issues-advice wanted



## DimSum (Mar 28, 2012)

Hi folks, I'm hoping someone might be able to help me out. I bought my non-horsey hubby an 8 year old Friesian/morgan cross gelding that was used as half a carriage team and shown under cart. I've had him for only a few weeks.

The gelding has adapted well and has a wonderful sweet disposition. As far as retraining, I am finding some strange "quirks" that I think may be a holdover from driving. I know nothing about driving and am hoping someone who does might post up here.

When I lunge him to the right, he is his usual calm self. I just walk up, turn him to the right and cluck-he stays on the circle with no problem. However, when I try and go to the left, i.e. I approach him and try to get along his left side he looses his mind and backs up and blows. I mean he flips his head up, quakes and motors backwards all the while keeping his head in line with my body. The first few times...wow he was just a mess. Acted like I was going to kill him if he didn't back up.

Before anyone asks, his vision is fine according to the vet  . In the past few weeks I have gotten him to calm down and am now able to rub the lunge line and the whip on his left side, then I can motion him out though he still blows and takes off doing his huge earth shattering trot for a few minutes until he settles down.

Could it be that the former owner-whom I can't contact-had some sort of "back up" command? I mean this guy who'd rather sleep than work just about levitates himself back in a straight line.

Oh, and this only happens when he is hooked to a lunge line, never on a normal lead line or when he is bridled which is why I wonder if it is some sort of command rather than a training issue.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

was he driven single or dual? drafts are taught gee and haw, for left and right, walk out, and whoa. Do you let him loose when you round pen ? or do you use a line? Do you let him have free time to run play before you work him?
I would just keep working him , you may try seeing how he responds to gee and haw, you may find a driving site for help


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## DimSum (Mar 28, 2012)

stevenson said:


> was he driven single or dual? drafts are taught gee and haw, for left and right, walk out, and whoa. Do you let him loose when you round pen ? or do you use a line? Do you let him have free time to run play before you work him?
> I would just keep working him , you may try seeing how he responds to gee and haw, you may find a driving site for help


He was half of a matched team. The horse that he was paired with suffered an accident in the pasture and had to be put down. So our gelding was sold because the old owner could not buy another that matched him. 

I don't use the round pen, though there is one at the barn-I am not familiar with how to correctly use one but I've been reading a bit about it. As far as free time to run, he is in a 16 acre pasture with run ins and other horses so he gets a lot of time to just be a horse  That having been said, left to his own he has 2 preferred gaits...sleeping and eating LOL so this spookiness is just so "out of character" for him.

I use a normal lunge line, and if I start out to the right he is calm and I have no issues. But as soon as I approach the left side he gets all twitchy and uptight and does the back up thing. With soft voice and patience I can get him to go left it's just that he acts like I am going to KILL him unless he backs up which is why I wondered if it had something to do with how you back a horse into position to hook them up. 

The reason I'm wanting to work him more from the ground is that his trot was ...dynamic to say the least when we first got him. He knew only one speed at the trot-extended and really fast. Given his conformation, that extended trot is murder for my inexperienced spouse to ride. Once he gets going to the left he trots himself out in a few circles and regains his composure. 

He has a great work ethic, and likes attention. After we ride we usually hand walk and let our horses graze and relax before they get put up in the pasture for the night.

Thanks for the reply!


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

I think you just answered your own question... Half of a team. He was probably the horse on the right. His buddy was on his left. ! Patience and work on his left side . He had someone on that side so he is not used to the exposure so to speak !


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## DimSum (Mar 28, 2012)

I hope so...thanks again


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

That is not normal behavior on a trained driving horse.When you are lunging is he bending both directions or pushing out of the circle not wanting to bend?

Is he flexible on both sides? He may have pain if he bends on that side and is rushing to get away from what he is afraid is about to come. If he seems stiff I would have a vet look at him and maybe a chiro.


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## DimSum (Mar 28, 2012)

Thanks for the reply. He seems to be okay in terms of bending around the circle once he settles down. I also do stretching/flexion on the ground before we do most anything and I don't see any signs of soreness. Nothing in the saddle either, he goes just fine and does smallish circles both ways with no hiccups.

He did pull against the lunge (body stiff and head thrown up body cocked outward braced going both ways) for the first few weeks as he was very unbalanced. I didn't use any side reins as my goal was not to mess with his headset just to get him to understand "trot" doesn't mean "charge" LOL.

There was a pretty extensive vetting done before we bought him that didn't show any issues.


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## GreySorrel (Mar 5, 2012)

It almost sounds as if something happened on that left side that left him leery and worried. Did you ask his former owners if he was in any driving accidents prior to his team mate dying? 

I think your doing the right thing of working with him on that side to show him you mean him no ill will or harm, then going along at a slower pace and go from there. I am sure, as time goes on he will settle in and hopefully get over his anxiety about what his issues are.


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## DimSum (Mar 28, 2012)

Thanks GreySorrel, either something happened as you said or it has been suggested to me that the former owner could have been pretty aggressive while backing into the cart. I will just keep up with my plans of gently showing him I won't hurt him. He gets totally shaky if I use a full size lunge whip, so I use a 4 ft dressage whip as a cue. 

I can't question the former owner, he had been bought by a hunter/jumper trainer as a prospect then they figured out the gelding is totally unsuitable for jumping.


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## GreySorrel (Mar 5, 2012)

Yes, I have seen people be over aggressive when backing a team, jerking on the lines, being over aggressive with the whip as well and/or whip. When I back my team, I will lightly but with even pressure on my lines, tell them "Easy Back", they know it is slow and steady. As they get closer to whatever I am hitching them to I will touch them with one hand and say "Easy" one more time, they know to either stop or take one more step. 

Have you tried talking to him as you work with him and not use any aides you have to hold, like the lunge whip? Would that work? As I said, I think your doing a great thing by giving him time and taking it easy...I personally think something happened and now he is fearful and apprehensive...good for you!


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## DimSum (Mar 28, 2012)

He is super responsive to voice, and I talk to him all the time. Heck, another quirk my spouse found was that if you say "Good Boy" in a bright tone of voice he stops dead. I didn't believe him until I tried it myself and sure enough. I've had 2 other people try saying it from the ground or on his back and then gelding just shuts down and drops his head. Rather disconcerting LOL, now we say "Niiiice" instead.

If I do not use the short dressage whip while trying to lunge him he will go out for maybe 2 circles and stop/turn and face me. Then the process starts over, with me having to talk him into going back out on the circle. 

But with the short whip I can growl at him and shake the whip just slightly and keep him out on the circle.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I think his biggest problem is the fact the his other half isn't there. Horses driven as teams bond closely to the one beside them. He'd have gotten his turning guidance from his partner when going to the left, and his partner was likely the same going to the right. When teaching him to lunge, if you get to circles and he turns to face you, let him enjoy his little rest (reward) before you send him out again. If when he stops and he's looking at you with both eyes, that means his mind is on you.


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## DimSum (Mar 28, 2012)

Ohhh Saddlebag you may have just hit the nail on the head! That does sound about right.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

Grey S.. what type of horses do you drive ?


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## AengusOg (Jan 18, 2010)

Its quite normal for horses to be 'sticky' to lunge on one side or the other. Many will go well one way, but will evade on the other rein. It could be that your horse was able to turn to face his handler during his early training, and the handler may have frightened the horse with the whip in their effort to lunge him on that side.

Once a horse has learned this evasion it is quite difficult to train them out of it. Going after the animal with the whip only serves to send his quarters too far round, resulting in the horse facing the handler and, if the handler persists, the horse will work hard to prevent the handler getting down that side to send him on on the circle.

I find that working quietly with the horse in-hand and teaching him to yield his head/neck/shoulder to pressure, first from a training stick, then, progressively, from the hand and then the posture/energy of my body, I can persuade the horse to yield his fore end away, allowing me to step to the side and away as I focus on his quarters to send him on.

Because the horse has learned that he must yield his fore end, I can send him on and, if he attempts to evade by turning in, I can step in toward him and prevent him falling in and turning.

If you decide to try this, you will have to be watchful for the signs of the horse looking to evade, and deal quickly and decisively with it. You will have to be proactive in your lunging, and quick on your feet, and be aware of how your position in relation to the horse, as well as your posture/energy, will affect his going.

Oh, and you might want to lose the whip.


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## DimSum (Mar 28, 2012)

Thanks for the thoughtful reply AengusOg  . Well, the equine dentist was out today and while he was assessing Angus' teeth he looked at me and asked if I had issues going to the left. I explained the while lunging to the left = loss of mind and he told me there was a nasty hook and wave that could be very painful when his head was pulled around.

The dentist floated his teeth, trimmed back his canine teeth which were too long and pinching his tongue. Afterwards we walked into the arena and he went left on the lunge without so much as a stutter step. Goes to show that sometimes the answer is right in front of you!


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## GreySorrel (Mar 5, 2012)

stevenson said:


> Grey S.. what type of horses do you drive ?


A team of Percheron mares. And you?


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## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

DimSum said:


> Thanks for the thoughtful reply AengusOg  . Well, the equine dentist was out today and while he was assessing Angus' teeth he looked at me and asked if I had issues going to the left. I explained the while lunging to the left = loss of mind and he told me there was a nasty hook and wave that could be very painful when his head was pulled around.
> 
> The dentist floated his teeth, trimmed back his canine teeth which were too long and pinching his tongue. Afterwards we walked into the arena and he went left on the lunge without so much as a stutter step. Goes to show that sometimes the answer is right in front of you!


Good Job!!!! It is so important to get teeth looked at by a reputable Dentist. How painful that must have been to get that reaction just from traveling to the left.


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## DimSum (Mar 28, 2012)

Taffy Clayton said:


> Good Job!!!! It is so important to get teeth looked at by a reputable Dentist. How painful that must have been to get that reaction just from traveling to the left.


Ya, I feel like a right idiot, I missed the other signs-a lil head tossing when asking to go left under saddle, etc. A vet I'm not familiar with did a pre-purchase exam, but all he said was "he has some minor hooks" so I trusted in that  This dentist is very good, but in high demand so it took me a month after I bought the gelding to get him seen.


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## GreySorrel (Mar 5, 2012)

If your going to get your horses teeth looked at, go with a farrier who has dental knowledge, that way if you need them sedated or something goes wrong, your in good hands. I have had several friends have bad experiences with supposed equine dentists, so it is safer to use a vet, least that is my opinion.


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## DimSum (Mar 28, 2012)

Their teeth were done today, and without sedation or incident. This guy is really good, and is also a DVM so he decides as to whether or not he feels the horse needs sedation. I checked his references thoroughly before I ever made the call. I was really impressed, he is just one of those lucky practitioners with "the touch" that calms a horse down. I learned more in an hour with him about teeth and bitting than my (coff) decade or four before it.


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## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

GreySorrel said:


> If your going to get your horses teeth looked at, go with a farrier who has dental knowledge,
> 
> 
> You have got to be joking!!


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## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

GreySorrel said:


> If your going to get your horses teeth looked at, go with a farrier who has dental knowledge,
> 
> Is this where Hoof and Mouth Disease comes from?


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

DimSum said:


> He is super responsive to voice, and I talk to him all the time. Heck, another quirk my spouse found was that if you say "Good Boy" in a bright tone of voice he stops dead. I didn't believe him until I tried it myself and sure enough. I've had 2 other people try saying it from the ground or on his back and then gelding just shuts down and drops his head. Rather disconcerting LOL, now we say "Niiiice" instead.
> 
> If I do not use the short dressage whip while trying to lunge him he will go out for maybe 2 circles and stop/turn and face me. Then the process starts over, with me having to talk him into going back out on the circle.
> 
> But with the short whip I can growl at him and shake the whip just slightly and keep him out on the circle.


 Some people teach the horse to stop and face you. You just need to be patient. Mine is now getting better at going on the circle instead of facing me. When you have the lung whip are you keeping it behind you? If not and you are getting it forward that would tell him to stop and turn would be my guess.


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## GreySorrel (Mar 5, 2012)

Taffy Clayton said:


> GreySorrel said:
> 
> 
> > If your going to get your horses teeth looked at, go with a farrier who has dental knowledge,
> ...


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## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

GreySorrel said:


> If your going to get your horses teeth looked at, go with a* farrier* who has dental knowledge, that way if you need them sedated or something goes wrong, your in good hands. I have had several friends have bad experiences with supposed equine dentists, so it is safer to use a vet, least that is my opinion.


 
* ??????? *


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## GreySorrel (Mar 5, 2012)

Taffy Clayton said:


> * ??????? *


I MEANT vet NOT farrier...my mistake OP


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

GreySorrel said:


> I MEANT vet NOT farrier...my mistake OP


 Your post was confusing and I was thinking you might have typed it wrong also.


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## GreySorrel (Mar 5, 2012)

churumbeque said:


> Your post was confusing and I was thinking you might have typed it wrong also.


I did type it wrong and could not go back to edit it so I did say here. Thank you Churumbeque for being polite about it.


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## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

Thank you Churumbeque for being polite about it.[/QUOTE]


If this was a jab to me GS and you think....

"You have got to be joking" and 
"Is this where hoof and mouth disease comes from?" 

are not polite posts, you need to get your heart off of your sleave and take a look at some of your posts to some beginner drivers, and see what not polite really is.


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## DimSum (Mar 28, 2012)

churumbeque said:


> Your post was confusing and I was thinking you might have typed it wrong also.


 I figured that was an "oops" too, no worries I got the drift just fine. I too suffer from FFFBMTFS (fat fumble finger brain moving too fast syndrome) sometimes when I post things :lol:


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## GreySorrel (Mar 5, 2012)

DimSum said:


> I figured that was an "oops" too, no worries I got the drift just fine. I too suffer from FFFBMTFS (fat fumble finger brain moving too fast syndrome) sometimes when I post things :lol:


LOL never heard it put that way but it is a good way to look at it. I suffer from too much coffee, brain going too fast and not getting what I am thinking out on here typed out. Glad now you know what I meant to say but didn't put what I wanted.


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## michaelvanessa (Apr 25, 2012)

*driveing horse problem*



DimSum said:


> Hi folks, I'm hoping someone might be able to help me out. I bought my non-horsey hubby an 8 year old Friesian/morgan cross gelding that was used as half a carriage team and shown under cart. I've had him for only a few weeks.
> 
> The gelding has adapted well and has a wonderful sweet disposition. As far as retraining, I am finding some strange "quirks" that I think may be a holdover from driving. I know nothing about driving and am hoping someone who does might post up here.
> 
> ...


 its a strange one possabley your horse has been beaten and is very aprehensive on the rein you said you have problems on.
the best bet is to walk beside your new horse lunge him first on the good rein and have some treats with you so you can walk with him on the other.
talk to him and when he is going right give him some slack so he feels comftable around you.
wean him gentley on that side with titbits and talking to him to build his confedence and in time you shall see results.
ask if the other horse was put down near him or it could be the loss of the other that mite have caused the problem.
with tricky he was with tammy all the step of the way and saw her go and that helped him.
i think haveing a horse stuck pineing in a field prelongs the process.
the best way win your horse over and go to his levle then bring him up to yours and youll have a great driveing horse.


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## michaelvanessa (Apr 25, 2012)

*lunging.*

there could be a problem which has happend on the lunge that could be the course of the problem.
may be he took off on that rein and got pulled over and hert him self.
walk with him on that rein and reasure him and walk him in the circle with 2 of you one in the middle and one with his head to passafie him with titbits work on that rein as it sounds like a resistive movement to get away from something give your self time and him time to when you feel things are going ok stop the session and reward.
and start again or take him to his stable and let him think what he has done.
and start another session the next day.
and he should sort him self out as time goes on.
rember start from scratch and repair the dammage which has been done by the previous owner also rember time take your time.


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## DimSum (Mar 28, 2012)

Thank you michaelvanessa, I appreciate the additional suggestions.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

GreySorrel said:


> I did type it wrong and could not go back to edit it so I did say here. Thank you Churumbeque for being polite about it.


 The problem with this type of forum is it is easy to get offended. I hate typing so mine are always short and not sugar coated which can seem rude. I didn't take Taffy's comments as rude and when I read your suggestion about a using farrier ( I was thinking "REALLY") I almost wrote something also but forgot about it. So try not to take it personal.


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## tempest (Jan 26, 2009)

michaelvanessa said:


> its a strange one possabley your horse has been beaten and is very aprehensive on the rein you said you have problems on.
> the best bet is to walk beside your new horse lunge him first on the good rein and have some treats with you so you can walk with him on the other.
> talk to him and when he is going right give him some slack so he feels comftable around you.
> wean him gentley on that side with titbits and talking to him to build his confedence and in time you shall see results.
> ...


OP said that they had the dentist out to take care of some teeth problems and after the dental issues were sorted out the horse was fine with the moving to the left.


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