# Harley's chronic runny stool



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Yes, it's me again, complaining about Harley again. It isn't the first time I post about this, but honestly, I cannot figure this one out. Maybe someone has an idea I haven't tried yet. 

To sum it up, Harley is my daughter's 16 yr old Arabian gelding who is pretty healthy overall, but tends to have little issues like skin problems and mild coughing (I'm mostly staying on top of that, for now). When we first got him in November of 2015, he had very runny stool for at least two months. I chalked it up to the changes in diet, etc. Spring and summer came and went, and he went on pasture, his stool firmed up and all was well. He really does best in 24/7 turnout in the summertime, but in our climate, that isn't possible year round so he went back on hay in the fall and is now in his stall at night. The bitter cold makes him cough so I shut him in during the coldest part of the day and steam his hay.

The runny stool came back around November and just isn't going away. Or I should say it comes and goes really. He can go days with good, round droppings, then suddenly we're back to the wet stuff. It runs down on his hocks and tail and makes a mess, which is a problem because I can't wash him when it's -20 C. I brush off as much as possible, but I know it's not good for his skin. 

*His diet:* hay and hay cubes. The vet recommended we try second cut hay because he says it will help firm up his stool. After about 3 weeks of feeding him second cut hay (which is really a more grassy type hay), his stool is still runny. Maybe it hasn't been long enough? As for hay cubes, I had bought timothy/alfalfa cubes and decided to switch to timothy alone. I know some horses don't do well on alfalfa. I switched him to timothy alone about 2 weeks ago. Again, maybe I'm not being patient enough, but today, he had particularly messy stool. 

*Supplements: *he was on Cal Trace, but they will no longer ship to Canada, so I worked with an equine nutritionist to basically re-create the Cal Trace formula. She is also my trimmer and I trust her completely. I'd be happy to provide you with the breakdown of all the nutrients if it helps, but basically, they're the same as what was in Cal Trace. Selenium, vitamin E, flax, biotin, zinc, iron, copper, salt, and a few other things. I went through a whole bottle of Probiotic with him and it didn't seem to make any difference whatsoever. He has access to warm water (heated water buckets) 24/7 and drinks about 25-30 liters a day (I know, because I had to haul water to the barn when my pipes froze). 

He moves around less than he would in the summer, but we still ride him occasionally. Still, I'd say he is being used very lightly at the moment. Oh, and I had a fecal egg count done from his stool in the fall and it came out clean. I still treated him with a broad spectrum dewormer (my mare had an egg count of 200 so I wasn't going to take chances). He has had a full metabolic workup in the fall as well and everything looked good. 

Thoughts from the hive mind?


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I went through this with my guy for several years, when my guy was around 18, his poop was a diarrhea type consistency. The vet did work ups to check liver enzymes, kidney function, etc. and he came out just fine as well. How is your horses weight holding up with the hay diet? Does he actually eat the hay or does he waste a lot?

With my guy we played a lot. We treated him for ulcers and we put him on a senior feed. We fed him yogurt for a few days (the kind with the bacteria in it) and I also kind of begged the vet to put him on antibiotics, even though he wasn't running a fever and his blood tests were normal, I knew my horse and I felt like there was SOMETHING. He gave me a five-pack. I don't recall what antibiotic it was but it came in little packets and you gave him one a day. for five days. Now, who knows if that is what did it but his poop did go back to normal after he finished the round.

Triple Crowne Senior worked the best for me but I can't get it around here anymore so I have him on the SafeChoice Senior and his poop is normal for him. It's solid-ish but it's not horse apple solid, it's more like a ploppy pile solid but keep in mind, he is 32 years old. 

If you've ruled out inner health issues, teeth, and ulcers then I think you may just have to play around with your feed until you figure it out.

Good luck!


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

I had a gelding that kind of got runny poop every winter. I say that because his poop wasn't actually that runny but he always had a mess running down his behind because he had liquid farts. Man, could he shoot that stuff out too, you ran when you saw that tail lift. LOL Vet exam, making sure he had the best of hay, etc... never changed this, only spring coming with green grass fixed it. Opposite of what most horses experience. He did that for years but it never seemed detrimental to his health because he acted perfectly normal.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

You could try egg yolks... there is a treatment for foal diarrhea that is made from egg yolks. Sorry I can't remember the name, but it came in a packet.....


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

farmpony84 said:


> I went through this with my guy for several years, when my guy was around 18, his poop was a diarrhea type consistency. The vet did work ups to check liver enzymes, kidney function, etc. and he came out just fine as well. How is your horses weight holding up with the hay diet? Does he actually eat the hay or does he waste a lot?
> 
> With my guy we played a lot. We treated him for ulcers and we put him on a senior feed. We fed him yogurt for a few days (the kind with the bacteria in it) and I also kind of begged the vet to put him on antibiotics, even though he wasn't running a fever and his blood tests were normal, I knew my horse and I felt like there was SOMETHING. He gave me a five-pack. I don't recall what antibiotic it was but it came in little packets and you gave him one a day. for five days. Now, who knows if that is what did it but his poop did go back to normal after he finished the round.
> 
> ...


His teeth were done recently, he was treated for ulcers last year, but I'm pretty sure he never actually had any (he was cinchy, but I know believe it was purely behavioral). He eats like it's his last meal EVERY TIME! He always thinks he's starving - he's not. In fact, he's a little pudgy. But he sure loves his food. Nothing gets wasted. I wonder if I should try yogourt. The fact that it's off and on and seems to do that for months on end makes me think it's not something an antibiotic would treat.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

I should also add that his stool isn't liquid. It does form piles, just not the nice, round, apple type balls. And it has enough loose consistency to hit his hocks, but is easy to pick up with a manure fork. Does that make sense? Maybe this is just how his stool is in the winter.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

It could be that it's caused by his water intake what with soaking/steaming his hay. Really if he's healthy in every other way and his piles are at least cow patty consistency I wouldn't worry too much, just keep an eye out for any other changes.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

You could try feeding him probiotics to help the gut. 

Also with thenpoopmsticking to him rub some Vaseline into where it sticks and although this in itself is a tad messy it will stop the poop sticking. 

I would do this tomfoals when they were around five days old to stop the scouring they get from the mare coming back into heat causes so they didn't end up with bald butts.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

You might want to look into Yea Sacc and Bio Mos by Alltech. The link below has pretty good prices. I don't know if she sends to Canada but you can check. 

About Oak Creek Services LLC ? Horse Supplements Store

I've been using Yea Sacc for about two years now with my horses and I see a big difference in them. I also stopped giving it to them for a month or so because I ran out and didn't reorder right away and saw a difference. They are now back on it. It is part of their supplement baggies that I make for them. 

I use CT, Yea Sacc, ground flax and salt to mix with their hay pellets or cubes.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

I would also like to add: When Star was not getting her Yea Sacc, she started reverting back to being a ding dong and nervousness. Now that she's back on it, she has calmed way down again. Maybe the yea sacc is helping her body absorb more nutrients or something IDK, but that is the only thing that has changed for her.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

LoriF said:


> I would also like to add: When Star was not getting her Yea Sacc, she started reverting back to being a ding dong and nervousness. Now that she's back on it, she has calmed way down again. Maybe the yea sacc is helping her body absorb more nutrients or something IDK, but that is the only thing that has changed for her.


Coincidentally, I ordered some yea sacc 1026 a few days ago! My equine nutritionist/trimmer recommended it for a variety of reasons. It would be awesome if that solved the problem! Will let you know...


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Foxhunter said:


> You could try feeding him probiotics to help the gut.
> 
> Also with thenpoopmsticking to him rub some Vaseline into where it sticks and although this in itself is a tad messy it will stop the poop sticking.
> 
> I would do this tomfoals when they were around five days old to stop the scouring they get from the mare coming back into heat causes so they didn't end up with bald butts.


He was on a probiotic for months. No effect. 

The vaseline works well, but I have to clean him up first - I can't very well put it on over the poop. And it's -22 C this morning, so baths are out of the question. Will try using hot, damp towels later, when the temps go up to -12 C. Not sure what vaseline will do in this cold either.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Acadianartist said:


> I should also add that his stool isn't liquid. It does form piles, just not the nice, round, apple type balls. And it has enough loose consistency to hit his hocks, but is easy to pick up with a manure fork. Does that make sense? Maybe this is just how his stool is in the winter.


That may just be his "normal" for this time of year then. Mine has big piles of plop. Not really any apples like the others but honestly, if you walk around your field, you can kind of pick out which poop go's to which horse. At least I can, but size and color, etc...


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

farmpony84 said:


> That may just be his "normal" for this time of year then. Mine has big piles of plop. Not really any apples like the others but honestly, if you walk around your field, you can kind of pick out which poop go's to which horse. At least I can, but size and color, etc...


Well, I only have two so it's pretty easy. Kodak, my mare, did have runny stool when she first came to us, but it went away pretty quickly. And since they're stalled at night, I know which one is normal and which one isn't even before I check the paddock. 

Maybe it is just normal for him, but it's such a PITA to clean up. I've had to wash the back of his winter blanket a couple of times in cold weather (in a bucket, on the deck), and it's not fun. Takes forever to dry of course, and I don't want to bring it in the house for pretty obvious reasons, lol. Some people seem to find the smell objectionable, strangely! :think::shrug:


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Did you ever use a Moxidectin based wormer?
Hind gut ulcers is another thing that comes to mind - maybe try a calcium/magnesium buffer?


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

jaydee said:


> Did you ever use a Moxidectin based wormer?
> Hind gut ulcers is another thing that comes to mind - maybe try a calcium/magnesium buffer?


He was wormed with this in November: EQVALAN® GOLD

It's the broadest spectrum dewormer available in Canada according to the website. I could try Quest, but the two products appear to treat for the same types of worms. 

He has also been on Gastrogard: Treat With Gastrogard 

Neither of these seemed to make a difference, although given that it is sporadic, it's hard to say.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

My mother gets pretty severe eczema on her hands. Very painful, bleeding, cracking. For a while she took probiotics and her eczema went completely away for the first time ever, and she was so happy about it. For some reason that has not been made clear to me, she stopped taking the probiotics. Guess what? Yup, eczema. I mention this because I believe that skin problems and the digestive system are closely linked.

There are MANY different types of probiotics. And they've all got a certain place in the digestive system that they help. I would research probiotics more before completely ruling them out. Just because the one you had didn't work, doesn't mean that a different type won't. I would research the different bacteria strains in each probiotic you look at.

I've read some really amazing things about brewer's dried yeast for horses. Yea-sacc does have brewer's dried yeast in it (at least the one that is included in my mare's glucosamine supplement).

For what its worth, my horses would get stools that were more of a cow pie consistency on soaked feed. It wasn't bad enough that I had problems of it sticking to the coat though.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

horseluvr2524 said:


> My mother gets pretty severe eczema on her hands. Very painful, bleeding, cracking. For a while she took probiotics and her eczema went completely away for the first time ever, and she was so happy about it. For some reason that has not been made clear to me, she stopped taking the probiotics. Guess what? Yup, eczema. I mention this because I believe that skin problems and the digestive system are closely linked.
> 
> There are MANY different types of probiotics. And they've all got a certain place in the digestive system that they help. I would research probiotics more before completely ruling them out. Just because the one you had didn't work, doesn't mean that a different type won't. I would research the different bacteria strains in each probiotic you look at.
> 
> ...


You make a good point about the different types of probiotics. Will see if the Yea sacc helps, and if not, I'll look at what other products I can try. Other than yogourt and yea sacc, has anyone had any luck with a specific probiotic? This is the one we used: Omega Alpha Pharmaceuticals - Ultra Probiotics Plus?


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

Here is a few articles if you feel like reading:

The Benefits of Yeast in Equine Nutrition

http://www.admani.com/horse/Equine%20Library/Horse%20Supplementing%20Horse%20diets%20with%20Yeast.htm

I am torn between trying brewer's dried yeast or DMG this upcoming summer to see if they help with my mare's bug allergies. She overreacts to those little house/barn flies in the summer and gets hives from them. Gnats, mosquitoes, and any of the nasties most other places have to deal with are a complete nightmare for my mare.

I've really been wanting to try out those, a seaweed supplement made for horses, and carob (all added individually one at a time of course over a long period of time) to see what kind of a difference they will make in my horse's health and performance.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

my mare Shasta had runny poop forever. Wormed, probiotics, worse when on hay. 
Vet gave her some liquid ivomectin, floated her teeth again, and i gave her some 
succeed vitamins, the ones made for horses with founder/laminintis issues at half the recommended dose, and she has nice formed piles now. She is no longer on the vitamins, as her hooves got really hard. So I am thinking it was the combination of the liquid wormer,teeth float and vitamin. 
It is frustrating to trying to find the fix . good luck


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

A good friend of mine had a mare who had green, runny cow patty poops on hay in the winter. She was cranky too, had lots of gas, had gas colic quite a few times. She tried everything from probiotics, yogurt to ulcer meds and other supplements. What saved her was charcoal. Comfort gut actually. We're going to try it for Spirit in February. Something about the active charcoal neutralizes the stomach whatnot. Her runny poops went away in three days, she wasn't gassy within a week, and quit being cranky within a month. It's been a year with no more gas colic (she was colicing once or twice a month before). Something to look into!


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

WhattaTroublemaker said:


> A good friend of mine had a mare who had green, runny cow patty poops on hay in the winter. She was cranky too, had lots of gas, had gas colic quite a few times. She tried everything from probiotics, yogurt to ulcer meds and other supplements. What saved her was charcoal. Comfort gut actually. We're going to try it for Spirit in February. Something about the active charcoal neutralizes the stomach whatnot. Her runny poops went away in three days, she wasn't gassy within a week, and quit being cranky within a month. It's been a year with no more gas colic (she was colicing once or twice a month before). Something to look into!


Thanks! Going to see if the yea sacc works and if not, Comfort gut will be next on my list! Worth a shot! I don't find Harley gassy, but he's always been girthy so who knows...


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## TuyaGirl (Mar 14, 2014)

I'm too a fan of brewers yeast, and been using it for a couple years now, my mare never had loose stools but it won't hurt to try, plus it has a lot of benefits, including for senior horses' digestive system. Also a good article

YEAST: Friend and Foe of the Horse - HolisticHorse.com


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Acadianartist said:


> He was wormed with this in November: EQVALAN® GOLD
> 
> It's the broadest spectrum dewormer available in Canada according to the website. I could try Quest, but the two products appear to treat for the same types of worms.
> 
> ...


Eqvalan Gold is Ivermectin based and Quest is Moxidectin based - you need to use the Moxidectin wormer for encysted worms
Ivermectin will *not* kill encysted small strongyles (redworm as we 'commonly' call them in the UK. Encysted worms are possibly the most damaging of all the internal parasites and they will cause diarrhea amongst other things and don't show up in fecal counts - they stay encysted for as long as 3 years. 
The Worm That Kills - And Why Only Two Worming Chemicals Can Stop It - The Horse's Back


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

jaydee said:


> Eqvalan Gold is Ivermectin based and Quest is Moxidectin based - you need to use the Moxidectin wormer for encysted worms
> Ivermectin will *not* kill encysted small strongyles (redworm as we 'commonly' call them in the UK. Encysted worms are possibly the most damaging of all the internal parasites and they will cause diarrhea amongst other things and don't show up in fecal counts - they stay encysted for as long as 3 years.
> The Worm That Kills - And Why Only Two Worming Chemicals Can Stop It - The Horse's Back


I hear you jaydee, and am willing to give him the Quest, although I feel I should try one thing at a time so I know what to do when this happens again in the future. Given that the yea sacc is less harsh, I will start with that. If I see no change, I will deworm him with Quest. The only reason I hesitate is that he's been dewormed less than two months ago and I try not to overdo it with the dewormers. I do appreciate your suggestion, however, and it will be the next thing I try after the yea sacc. After that, I will try the Comfort Gut Whattatroublemaker suggested. One remedy at a time and hopefully I will beat this!


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## Whinnie (Aug 9, 2015)

I know it is best to find the cause and correct it rather than just treat the symptom. That can be really difficult! I know digestive upset in humans can be caused by so many things it is hard to pinpoint. I had this same problem with my mare when I bought her in the Fall of 2012. It was explosive liquid and in the winter! I hauled warm water to the barn to wash off her mess and used baby wipes and generally made a career of trying to keep her clean, all the while consulting with different veterinarians and trying to get ideas as to the cause.

One vet recommended psyllium. She said that it can be fed every day with no ill effect as it is just plant husks in pellet form. That at least, it would make her droppings solid while I tried to find a cause. I have had her for 4 years now, and through observation and doing every vet test recommended I have found that my mare will get loose bowels freequently from stress. If a new horse enters the herd, she stresses until the pecking order is set. If the weather is bad and she is kept in stalled more than 48 hours, she stresses. These are her two main stressors, she is pretty much a calm appearing mare otherwise.

My barn does not rotate away from ivermectin, so in addition to the regular wormings, I add two wormings a year, spring and fall, using a pyrental product (as per my vet) admisistered at the 6 week mark between the regular ivermectin wormings for strongyles (boarding does not give me much choice in some things but that is a different story). 

As long a I pay attention to possible stressors and ask for the psyllium to be added ( sometimes for as long as 30 days) I have been able to keep on top of it. During the winter, I just have it fed every day as they are kept in a lot. The psyllium has not seemed to harm her either physically or otherwise. If it has been bad weather so the horses have been kept stalled for more than 48 hours AND the BM "forgets" to give her psyllium, I will have a problem so I just request it fed everyday in the winter.

I buy a 20 pound tub to keep at the barn and if it were used every day it would last about 5 months.

If nothing else works, maybe this will. Good luck, these kinds of mysteries can be so frustrating.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

My vet recommends worming twice a year now - once with Zimectrin Gold which is Ivermectin and praziquantel - the latter will deal with tapeworm which won't normally show up in a fecal and Quest which is Moxidectin to deal with encysted worms which also won't show up.
We're a 'closed herd' so no contamination being brought in by other horses


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

jaydee said:


> My vet recommends worming twice a year now - once with Zimectrin Gold which is Ivermectin and praziquantel - the latter will deal with tapeworm which won't normally show up in a fecal and Quest which is Moxidectin to deal with encysted worms which also won't show up.
> We're a 'closed herd' so no contamination being brought in by other horses


Yes, we do twice a year as well, since it's also a closed herd. I could do Ivermectin for one and Quest for the other. Probably a good plan regardless. But I won't wait until spring to do the Quest. I want to give the yea sacc a chance, but within a few weeks, if I don't see a difference, I'll worm him with Quest. 

Thanks!


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Whinnie said:


> I know it is best to find the cause and correct it rather than just treat the symptom. That can be really difficult! I know digestive upset in humans can be caused by so many things it is hard to pinpoint. I had this same problem with my mare when I bought her in the Fall of 2012. It was explosive liquid and in the winter! I hauled warm water to the barn to wash off her mess and used baby wipes and generally made a career of trying to keep her clean, all the while consulting with different veterinarians and trying to get ideas as to the cause.
> 
> One vet recommended psyllium. She said that it can be fed every day with no ill effect as it is just plant husks in pellet form. That at least, it would make her droppings solid while I tried to find a cause. I have had her for 4 years now, and through observation and doing every vet test recommended I have found that my mare will get loose bowels freequently from stress. If a new horse enters the herd, she stresses until the pecking order is set. If the weather is bad and she is kept in stalled more than 48 hours, she stresses. These are her two main stressors, she is pretty much a calm appearing mare otherwise.
> 
> ...


That's a good idea! How much psyllium do you feed per day? I won't introduce it just yet so I can pinpoint the cause, but I very much like your idea of keeping it on hand to feed in stressful situations (for him, it's usually a change in feed, but then it doesn't go away).


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## Whinnie (Aug 9, 2015)

I just feed the recommended dose. There is a small scoop included in the bucket. If it doesn't clear in a few days, you can feed more until the manure is solid, then drop back. I think it helps the intestines to rest and reset. I am sure your vet would have good advice on this. I got a lot of information by searching for previous threads on HF on this subject, but have been told not to advise others to look stuff up.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Whinnie said:


> I just feed the recommended dose. There is a small scoop included in the bucket. If it doesn't clear in a few days, you can feed more until the manure is solid, then drop back. I think it helps the intestines to rest and reset. I am sure your vet would have good advice on this. I got a lot of information by searching for previous threads on HF on this subject, but have been told not to advise others to look stuff up.


Ok, you lost me there... 

I've tried searching previous threads, but have had trouble with the search engine. Regardless, I appreciate the advice! 

I think we all know (or should, anyway) that anytime we ask a question on the Internet, there will be a wide variety of responses. It's up to each horse owner to make the final decision regarding their horse. That's a heavy burden of responsibility. But in the end, I find that among all the responses I inevitably get, there are some that are really useful. At the very least, these are things I can try. 

For now, Harley's stool has gone back to normal. I haven't started him on the yea sacc though, so it's not that. It just comes and goes on its own. But once I've added the yea sacc and dewormed him with Quest, I will keep the psyllium on hand just to help keep it firm. 

Thanks!


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

i would be careful with the calcium and magnesium. There is a possibility it could have a laxative effect . ( milk of mag) etc.. 

I saw a product for horse skin and sheath cleaners, and one of the ingredients was 
witch hazel. 

I am going to get some and try it on my horse that has the swellings, of course not full strength.


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## jgalejs (Jul 10, 2016)

I have owned a pony who had chronic diarrhea. Long story short, nothing we did changed her stool, she just had a very wide range of "normal" and never exhibited signs of discomfort, colic, or weight loss. Stress, heat, her cycle, and rich hay made it worse. She lived a VERY long happy life. Tip for winter, invest in a good nylon tail bag, and Vaseline. A thin coating of Vaseline will keep poo from crusting onto his legs and chapping the skin. The tail bag was great to keep those tail hairs from getting bogged down during particularly bad weeks. Good luck and I hope you can find a cause and solution.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Yes jgalejs, I definitely need a tail wrap. 

He has been on the yea sacc for a week. No change. How long should it take?


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

Acadianartist said:


> Yes jgalejs, I definitely need a tail wrap.
> 
> He has been on the yea sacc for a week. No change. How long should it take?


Yea Sacc is a live yeast culture. It stimulates the growth and activity of fiber digesting microorganisms in the cecum. I would give it at least a month.

Honestly, even if it doesn't resolve the problem with his loose stools, I would continue to give yea sacc. I didn't start to give it to my horses for loose stools. I started giving it to them so they can better utilize the nutrients that they are consuming and I feel it is doing them a world of good. The product is claimed to help with digestive upsets as well but I really can't claim that myself as they didn't have that problem in the first place.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Some THING is not right in Harley's digestive tract.

I had issues with Rusty for a couple of years. He never had diarrhea but he did have gas so bad, I could hear him 1/4 mile away, up on the ridge.

I had blood tests done on him twice with no results. The traditional vet gave him a thorough physical and could it find anything, although he agreed there was something amiss in the digestive tract.

He put Rusty on a prescription herb from the same company that makes Joker's insulin herbs (Hot Hoof 1. Rusty was on it for one summer, it did help and got ride of his massive gas attacks but Rusty still wasn't right.

Rusty didn't want his chest touched with any sort of pressure; anything more than an ounce of pressure from my hand was too much. He took a warning nip at DH because DH rubbed his chest too hard.

When I FINALLY was able to beg my original chiro to work on my two remaining horses (a Hollistic DVM/chiro that quit working on horses), the problems got solved. She has a Masters in Eastern medicine and is working toward her BA. 

She applied some of those Eastern principles to Rusty, saying his "chest was full of crap" and it was probably affecting his digestive tract. Rusty was not at all "pneumonia or bronchitis sick". I guess there is crap and then there is crap.

She worked her Eastern medicine magic on Rusty and put him on a different herb from the same place my traditional vet had used. That was a year ago and Rusty hasn't been this good in eons.

You have said before that you don't have anyone in Canada that is schooled in the JingTang herbs. There are quite a few in Minnesota, or you could key in the other northern states, if MN is far away.

http://mentalfloss.com/article/65877/how-pit-ponies-replaced-children-coal-mines

I'm convinced, after all you have done for Harley that he needs a visit from someone who is versed in Easter Medicine orrrrr a Native American or Canadian Indian.

Sometimes we have to step so far out of the box, the rest of the world (including the horse world) thinks we are bonkers. I don't care what anyone thinks --- if I know something might work and the person has a good resume, I'm all for giving them and their treatments a chance.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

walkinthewalk said:


> Some THING is not right in Harley's digestive tract.
> 
> I had issues with Rusty for a couple of years. He never had diarrhea but he did have gas so bad, I could hear him 1/4 mile away, up on the ridge.
> 
> ...



I fully agree with you walk, but I have not been able to find anyone with any training in these areas anywhere near me. I'd have to fly someone in, basically, which is not going to happen. I don't think anyone is going to want to drive 12 hours to treat my horse. 

Also, I'd add that while he does tend to have runny stool (not liquid, just not always firm), he doesn't suffer from any other symptoms of digestive upset. No excess gas, has never colicked, has an appetite like a hippo, gets fat on air, does not show any sensitivity to being touched around the belly, etc. The sloppy stool is messy and inconvenient, but certainly doesn't appear to bother him at all.

I've tried several herbal treatments without any success. His diet couldn't be simpler - hay, grass and hay cubes. I've had my hay analyzed and have consulted two equine nutritionists. I'm going to continue to feed the yea sacc because as LoriF points out, it's good for them regardless. It was on the list of supplements my equine nutritionist recommended. I'll also try deworming with Quest to see if that helps. 

Beyond that, I may have to just accept it and feed a little psyllium to help keep his stool firm. I'll keep my ear to the ground and keep asking my horse sources about anyone practicing Eastern medicine in my area (or who travels to my area occasionally). But I wouldn't want to just use anyone who claims they can cure him unless they have a solid reputation. There are lots of quacks out there too.


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## Whinnie (Aug 9, 2015)

Just as a follow up about searching for similar threads, at the bottom of the thread pages there is a list of similar threads and when you use the search bar, also include "horse forum" with what you are searching for to just confine it to threads on Horse Forum.


When I researched this same issue I was encouraged by the fact that many posters said that they could not find a cause, their horses were not in distress, so they just learned to live with it (of course always being alert to any changes in your horse's condition).


When I was researching this on the general internet, I found Horse Forum and then I joined. because there seemed to be so much god information from posters no matter how long ago it was posted.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Reactivating this thread because Harley's loose stool has become practically liquid 

We did the Yea sacc for about two months. He has been dewormed with Quest back in January, and was just dewormed again with Eqvalan Gold (about 2 weeks ago). The vet is at a loss - no surprise there. 

I can't say he's gassy, but he seems cranky. But that may be frustration at not being able to go out in the pasture (it hasn't grown in enough, but I will be transitioning them in about a week). Lots of energy when I take him out to hand-graze, and when we ride him. No obvious gut pain, though he is still quite cinchy when we do up the girth (will try to bite us). 

My thoughts are first, to try a different probiotic. Was thinking yogourt. Any specific brands you recommend? How long would you expect it to take to have some effect? If that doesn't do anything, I'm thinking of trying Comfort Gut. If those two don't do anything, I may treat for ulcers on the off chance that may be the cause.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

He is probably reacting to the sugar in the grass. I have a couple of mares that do this. As the grass matures and becomes less carb-y, it settles down. Good luck!


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

My cremello stallion has very soft, mostly unformed poops. We tested for Salmonella, negative. Worm load was "negligible" and he's been de-wormed with Quest plus. I have used yogurt, Probios and Fast Track probiotics = No Change. My vet recommend Assure Probiotics, says they are the best on the market, Patented Equine Digestive Aid | Assure®. If that doesn't help, she says I can use Bio Sponge from Platinum Performance. I asked her if, in the absence of a worm problem and/or disease process, the loose stool was in any way harmful to him and she said it was not, unless it got so runny that he became dehydrated. It hasn't.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

greentree said:


> He is probably reacting to the sugar in the grass. I have a couple of mares that do this. As the grass matures and becomes less carb-y, it settles down. Good luck!


He's not on grass.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> My cremello stallion has very soft, mostly unformed poops. We tested for Salmonella, negative. Worm load was "negligible" and he's been de-wormed with Quest plus. I have used yogurt, Probios and Fast Track probiotics = No Change. My vet recommend Assure Probiotics, says they are the best on the market, Patented Equine Digestive Aid | Assure®. If that doesn't help, she says I can use Bio Sponge from Platinum Performance. I asked her if, in the absence of a worm problem and/or disease process, the loose stool was in any way harmful to him and she said it was not, unless it got so runny that he became dehydrated. It hasn't.


Looks like a good product Dreamcatcher! I'm looking into getting it here. Thanks!


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Acadianartist said:


> Looks like a good product Dreamcatcher! I'm looking into getting it here. Thanks!


And, I can't get it here. They do not ship to Canada and I cannot find it elsewhere (even Amazon.com will not ship this to Canada, which tells me the company may not have had it approved to cross the border, something I've run into time and time again). 

Plan B is to print out the list of ingredients and see if I can find a close match from a Canadian distributor.

P.S. Harley's stool was a little better this morning. Not liquid anymore, and I could see balls.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Acadianartist said:


> And, I can't get it here. They do not ship to Canada and I cannot find it elsewhere (even Amazon.com will not ship this to Canada, which tells me the company may not have had it approved to cross the border, something I've run into time and time again).
> 
> Plan B is to print out the list of ingredients and see if I can find a close match from a Canadian distributor.
> .


Or get someone from the US to mail it to you.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Or get someone from the US to mail it to you.


I'd have to write to the company to make sure they've cleared it with customs. Otherwise, this 200$ product (that's what it will cost me with the exchange and shipping costs) could be confiscated. This is the same issue I had with Cal Trace. When the company won't ship to Canada, it's usually because they haven't cleared it for sale here. But I'll check with them.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Response from Assure: 

"Currently we are not shipping to Canada, and unfortunately, we do not have any dealers that are selling the Assure Products as they have not yet been authorized for sale yet in Canada.
I apologize for any inconvenience."

Just as I suspected. 

Any other suggestions?


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

I am currently trying out a new (to me) supplement for my husbands retired mare. She never really had loose stools but was a cribber and a pacer. We suspected ulcers but test were negative. Went to the horse fair and talked to the Redmond Rock person and suggested their Gold supplement- it has clay in it - we have been using it for 2 weeks and the cribbing has vanished (it really was not that bad) one thing it did notice though is that her piles looked a LOT better. More formed I guess is what I want to say - it made me realize that her before piles were more piles than apples. Maybe this would work for Harley?

https://www.countrymax.com/Redmond-Daily-Gold-Stress-Relief-Horse-Supplement-4.5-Pounds/


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Acadianartist said:


> Response from Assure:
> 
> "Currently we are not shipping to Canada, and unfortunately, we do not have any dealers that are selling the Assure Products as they have not yet been authorized for sale yet in Canada.
> I apologize for any inconvenience."
> ...


How about the Platinum Performance Bio Sponge? 

And if it's sent to you from a private party, so not bought by you (technically) can it be mailed? I'm thinking of a friend or family member here in the states, that sends a gift. I certainly wouldn't know whether or not a company was cleared for customs if I bought a product here in the states and sent it to someone in Canada or another country as a present.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Ok, the clay in the product *Carshon* linked you to is Montmorillonite Clay. Just when I was getting used to spelling and pronouncing Bentonite clay, this comes along

I would give it a try, if you can get it shipped to Canada. I'm for anything the Native Americans used or still use with success. They know a thing or two about natural healing.

Therapeutic Benefits of Calcium Montmorillonite Clay


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## PaisleysMom (Feb 22, 2017)

My TB had chronic runny stools too and we could not find anything wrong with him as well. Ulcer treatment for a month, fecal count negative but dewormed anyway. I kept him on ProBios and electrolytes every day which seemed to improve him, and then eventually changed to Tribute Senior feed and it is almost always normal now with no supplements. I do notice if his routine changes at all (like he can't go in the pasture for the day, or we go to a show) or if the weather drastically changes that he will have runny stool. I try to combat any changes with a few days of Probios and electrolytes before if I can plan it.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I think, as you already said, you have to search for Canadian approved products that contain the ingredients.
Even if a private person ships something that isn't approved you run the risk of the package being opened and confiscated so its probably not worth the risk. The route with the highest chance of getting it through is to drive to a US location to buy it and then hide it in your vehicle!!!


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

carshon said:


> I am currently trying out a new (to me) supplement for my husbands retired mare. She never really had loose stools but was a cribber and a pacer. We suspected ulcers but test were negative. Went to the horse fair and talked to the Redmond Rock person and suggested their Gold supplement- it has clay in it - we have been using it for 2 weeks and the cribbing has vanished (it really was not that bad) one thing it did notice though is that her piles looked a LOT better. More formed I guess is what I want to say - it made me realize that her before piles were more piles than apples. Maybe this would work for Harley?
> 
> https://www.countrymax.com/Redmond-Daily-Gold-Stress-Relief-Horse-Supplement-4.5-Pounds/


Yes, I found this too, and am intrigued by it. I can get it here. However, it's a supplement which contains trace minerals. I do not want to give him anything that contains iron or manganese because they naturally very high in my area. And I risk doubling up on things like selenium which is already part of his regular diet. However, if I could get just the clay, it might be worth a shot.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

jaydee said:


> I think, as you already said, you have to search for Canadian approved products that contain the ingredients.
> Even if a private person ships something that isn't approved you run the risk of the package being opened and confiscated so its probably not worth the risk. The route with the highest chance of getting it through is to drive to a US location to buy it and then hide it in your vehicle!!!


Unless of course you happen to be the victim if the next random vehicle search and they tear your car apart and find it.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> How about the Platinum Performance Bio Sponge?
> 
> And if it's sent to you from a private party, so not bought by you (technically) can it be mailed? I'm thinking of a friend or family member here in the states, that sends a gift. I certainly wouldn't know whether or not a company was cleared for customs if I bought a product here in the states and sent it to someone in Canada or another country as a present.


Any package can be opened, doesn't matter whether it's from a company or an individual. The company does not have it cleared for sale in Canada, so that's like the FDA saying it is not approved in the US. Means it's illegal.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

So I got ambitious today. I printed the list of ingredients from the Assure website that @DreamCatcher provided and tracked down every ingredient on it. These are human grade, of course, but we're talking live bacteria from health food stores kept at specific temperatures. Cost me a small fortune, but I'm going to give it a shot. I ran it by my equine nutritionist just in case something jumps out at her. Made the conversions using the chart on the Assure website so I know how much to give Harley. Keeping my fingers crossed.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

I had a closer look at that clay. I don't see what's so special about it. My horses are already getting all these minerals. This is the analysis. As I suspected, a lot of iron (too much given how much is already present in my hay and grass).


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Holy Crow!! I didn't look at the breakdown -- shame on me, Yay for you!

I wouldn't feed that either now that I see all that iron!!! That is downright vulgar. It might be good to use as a poultice, like the Bentonite clay is used. 3900PPM is quite the eye popper.

But it does Beg The Question:

Do you have any Native Tribes nearby? I was thinking if you do and they practice holistic medicine, they might be able to help you come up with something for Harley.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

walkinthewalk said:


> Holy Crow!! I didn't look at the breakdown -- shame on me, Yay for you!
> 
> I wouldn't feed that either now that I see all that iron!!! That is downright vulgar. It might be good to use as a poultice, like the Bentonite clay is used. 3900PPM is quite the eye popper.
> 
> ...


Yes, and no  Lots of First nations people in the area, but no traditional horse tribes. First nations people in this part of the world just didn't have horses, unlike those in the prairies. Here, they navigated by canoe because of the incredible amount of waterways we have. 

So re-constituting the recipe from Assure seems to be my best bet for now. Just pre and probiotics with psyllium husks, essentially. Now I did read that if you feed psyllium, you should only feed for 7 days straight, no more than once per month. Otherwise, the horse's digestive system adapts and it no longer has any effect. 

Sure, I could order more products online, but they would essentially contain the same pre- and probiotics I found at my local health food stores. Probably not as fresh and certainly not kept at optimal temperatures like the ones I bought today. Also, I could just be throwing good money after bad, because none of these products are cheap. Mind you, the live bacteria I bought today wasn't cheap either, but there's a better chance it's of higher quality and fresher. Keeping my fingers crossed this will work. I was hoping to transition the horses over to pasture by next week and would like his stool stabilized before I do that.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

PaisleysMom said:


> My TB had chronic runny stools too and we could not find anything wrong with him as well. Ulcer treatment for a month, fecal count negative but dewormed anyway. I kept him on ProBios and electrolytes every day which seemed to improve him, and then eventually changed to Tribute Senior feed and it is almost always normal now with no supplements. I do notice if his routine changes at all (like he can't go in the pasture for the day, or we go to a show) or if the weather drastically changes that he will have runny stool. I try to combat any changes with a few days of Probios and electrolytes before if I can plan it.


Yes, going to try a different round of probiotics and prebiotics. Curious about the electrolytes. I already have some (I can't even remember why I bought them now, but my tack room is really starting to look like a pharmacy!) and it is possible Harley is getting dehydrated. Will do a pinch test when I feed in a few minutes. 

But I remember I tried to mix it in his water and he wouldn't drink it. At all. So how do you get the electrolytes in your horse?


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Here is a comparison chart between the ingredients and analysis of Assure, and what I was able to find today during my scavenger hunt for pre and probiotics. And of course, I used the chart to figure out how much of each to give Harley. I had more than one salesperson look confused when I explained it wasn't for me, but for my horse.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

I just finished a trial on a new product, biodex , I think .. geez my brain sometimes.. and it firmed up a mares poo. it was all over fb.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

stevenson said:


> I just finished a trial on a new product, biodex , I think .. geez my brain sometimes.. and it firmed up a mares poo. it was all over fb.


Not on my FB... did a google search and nothing came up under that name. Are you sure that's what it's called?


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Can you get a product called Omega Grande? 
https://www.omegafields.com/equine-products/omega-grande.html
I changed to this from a liquid oil that contained A,E & D but was soy based because this also contains those vitamins but is flax seed and soy free. The iron and selenium in it isn't high enough to be a worry for me
They've been on it for a while now and no negative side effects but it did occur to me this morning that since she's been on this supplement the one of my horses that tends to have very loose poo is now producing normal poo. Could be coincidence but might be worth trying as it does contain yeast cultures


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

jaydee said:


> Can you get a product called Omega Grande?
> https://www.omegafields.com/equine-products/omega-grande.html
> I changed to this from a liquid oil that contained A,E & D but was soy based because this also contains those vitamins but is flax seed and soy free. The iron and selenium in it isn't high enough to be a worry for me
> They've been on it for a while now and no negative side effects but it did occur to me this morning that since she's been on this supplement the one of my horses that tends to have very loose poo is now producing normal poo. Could be coincidence but might be worth trying as it does contain yeast cultures


Looks like a decent product, but I am already giving a lot of those minerals as part of their diet, and have just added a bunch of pre and probiotics, including yeast cultures, to Harley's diet as of last night. They do appear to ship to Canada, but I can get very similar supplements locally. What I can't get is a lot of selection in terms of pre and probiotic mixes. 

Thanks for the suggestion though!


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

I will try to find the empty jar for the name..


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

stevenson said:


> I will try to find the empty jar for the name..


Thanks! I may not be able to get it here, but if I have a name, I can google it and find the ingredients, which I probably can get locally. 

Harley has been on pre- and probiotics as well as psyllium for two days now. No major change, though I can see a slight firming up. But his stool does vary, so too soon to tell if it's because of the new additives. 

I have also noticed that some of my bales of hay contain coarser hay. They're all from the same place - we picked them up in the field ourselves - so this is just a natural variation of the same field. The coarse stuff seems to make it worse for him, and he doesn't like it either. Given that I have lots of hay (I bought too much), I am just leaving those bales and using the finer stuff. My vet had mentioned that a finer hay is better for horses who tend to have loose stool.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

Bio - EZ . 
*Giddyap Girls Biscuit Company 
*


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Harley continues to make me guess as to what is causing his runny stool. He has been on pre and probiotics for almost a month now. His stool is about 80-90% normal, with nice, firm, round balls. I've never been so excited to see poop as I am when I see this. But the other 10-20% is fairly runny. So, overall, a big improvement I guess? But why are some stools still loose? This makes no sense to me. Help?


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

First -- If he is 80%- 90% better, take it! Lollol

2. I still contend something is amiss in his digestive tract. Maybe a slight bit of inflammation for some unknown reason. Maybe the pneumonia left him with a residual issue that he will always have to deal with --- who knows, it could even be related to his cough but not the direct cause of the cough

3. The important thing will be the pre-probiotics continuing to keep his manure this solid.

Sometimes, pre-probiotics do seem to stop working - maybe the system gets use to them. You may want to have a Pre-probiotic Plan B in your hip pocket just in case

For now, just let out a breath and go about your day sort of putting this issue to the back of your mind but not totally, lollol. I have lived by the "Yes I guess not" rule more in the last five years than my entire lifetime, lollol


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

Our Fjord had runny poo, nasty tail , I used the Giddyap girl product , had the Vet float her, wormed her paste, and the Vet wormed her with liquid wormer and changed for some senior feed to special diet feed no molasses, and her poos are firmed up .


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

stevenson said:


> Our Fjord had runny poo, nasty tail , I used the Giddyap girl product , had the Vet float her, wormed her paste, and the Vet wormed her with liquid wormer and changed for some senior feed to special diet feed no molasses, and her poos are firmed up .


My horses have been dewormed, had their teeth floated, and only eat hay, grass and hay cubes. Though I am going to deworm again now that they're on pasture, as per the vet's instructions. I've also used two different types of dewormers - one ivermectin-based and one moxidectin-based (effective against encysted worms, which is not the case for ivermectin based products). 

Manure is consistently better now. With the runny stool becoming far more sporadic. They're also on pasture all day now. Oddly, it has the opposite effect on Harley compared to most horses - when he's on pasture, his stool gets better rather than more runny. Kodak's stool is a bit runny at the moment, but I know it's just the switch to grass. It will subside. I'll keep Harley on pre and probiotics for a while longer as they seem to be having a positive effect.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Coming back to say that I haven't seen any runny stool in a few days. Well, not from Harley anyway  Kodak's stool is a bit runny, but that's from the grass. It will firm up. No dirty hocks, no big, flat patties. I may still see it here and there (he had a nasty one when we hauled him to the coach's for a lesson, but that's stress-induced), but at this point, I am inclined to think the pre and probiotics have done their job. I will finish the ones I have on hand, then take him off them for a while to see what happens. I will keep this "recipe" I concocted on file for when it comes back as needed. I have to say, I'm pretty pleased with the fact that I was finally able to get this under control.


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