# Genetic knowitalls take notice! Lol



## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

Okay, so I am not planning on breeding a horse anytime in the next 10 years.

I am very curios though to this:

Lets say a stallions can only produce dun horses. You breed him to a mare that can only produce lets say black horses. 

What will the foal turn out to be, because the sire and the dam can only produce 1 colour of foal... but different colours. 

I am just curios, so please share your thoughts.


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## Blue Smoke (Dec 22, 2012)

I am by no means an expert, but I would say either grulla (black dun) or bay dun depending on the agouti status of both parents. Homozygous black means they will never produce a red based foal. Bay, brown, black, grulla, etc are all black based either with or without modifiers, and all can be homozygous for black without actually being black.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Breezy2011 said:


> Okay, so I am not planning on breeding a horse anytime in the next 10 years.
> 
> I am very curios though to this:
> 
> ...


This is where you are underthinking it. Dun is a modifier, not a colour. 

There are only two colours of horse - red (chestnut) and black. Everything else, every other colour in the miriad of coats in the horse world, are modifications of these two bases. 

This guy is homozygous for black:










This girl is homozygous for dun:










Now, without being facetious, I can tell you are talking about your filly. That does narrow it down somewhat, because we can see what she carries (mostly). However, without knowing what else the stallion has, and without knowing if your filly is EE or Ee, there is no way to narrow down what colours to expect.


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## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

Thanks, but I was actually not talking about my filly, I was talking about, any horse because I am curious! Although, if I ever decide to breed, this would be good to know (but I will unlikely breed HER ever)

Okay, so lets say a stallion could only produce chestnut and the mare could only produce black?

Does that make a little more sence? One base colour can only be produced by each of the horses. 

What would the foal be?


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

If you breed a homozygous red(ee) to a homozygous black with no agouti(EE) you get a heterozygous black(Ee). "E" is dominant over "e".

ETA- That is barring any genes that don't express on the base color(silver and agouti on chestnut, cream on black, etc)


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## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

Okay, that makes sense, and what if they were both EE or ee? I am just trying to learn a little more about genetics!


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

Two homozygous black(both EE) would make black. The only gene they can produce is E. Two chestnuts(always homozygous ee) make chestnut.


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## TexasBlaze (Oct 4, 2010)

If one parent is EE (homozygous black) and the other parent is ee (homozygous red) They will give one black gene and one red gene. BUT black is dominant and red is recessive meaning that the black COVERS the red. So the horse will be black based always. BUT it also means that the resulting foal could GIVE a red gene and have a red foal.


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## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

Okay thanks! So for any two black horses bred, you will always get a black?


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## TexasBlaze (Oct 4, 2010)

Not always. Ee (black with a red recessive gene) bred to a Ee (black with red recessive) have a 25% chance of throwing a red gene per parent and producing a ee or red foal.


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

Only if they are homozygous. You could breed two heterozygous together and get a chestnut, since they would be Ee, and therefore the outcomes would be EE, Ee, or ee.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Chilla explained it Very well - I like to look at it like 'switches' turned off and on on a horse. Each horse has a set of all the possible switches (2 possible for each color gene) - some are switched on, some off. Each switch changes the appearance of a horse, sometimes if they have both turned on it'll look different from if they have one turned on. Like the cream dilute - on a red base 1 cream gene makes palomino, 2 cream makes cremello. Get where I'm going with this?

So you're mare who can only make black foals - clearly has BOTH Black switches turned on - if one was off there would be a 50/50 chance of her foal getting her black gene (of course what daddy carries can also influence the %)
What's nice about True black horses is you know they aren't hiding anything - there is no dilute gene that isn't visible on a black horse (except sometimes black with 1 cream can be tough to distinguish) 
One a red base horse dilutes like agouti(bay) and silver may not be apparent without DNA tests and may show up in a foal.

Now the daddy of your mix is probably the one throwing you some curve balls.
'dun' is just a dilute gene, it could appear on any color. So if the dun daddy a bay dun? Black dun (Grulla)? chestnut dun? buckskin dun? What base does he have?
For the sake of this post I'm going to "ASSume" he's a bay dun - because that's what most people refer to as just a plain 'dun'.
This would mean he carries at least 1 black gene, at least 1 agouti (bay) dilute gene, and (because you said he's guaranteed to throw dun foals) he must have 2 Dun dilute genes.
So daddy could look something like
Ee (black 1 switch on, 1 switch off)
Aa (bay 1 switch on, 1 switch off)
DD (dun both switches on)
He could have both switches on for black or bay - but we'll pretend like he doesn't because we don't know for sure.
So daddy has a 50/50 chance of carrying on his E (black gene) but lucky mommy has 2 so foal is definitely going to definitely get the E gene from mom - so baby is 50/50 Ee or EE (one on, one off or both on 50/50)
The agouti (bay gene) only effects black based horses - the foal is definitely is black based so he has 50/50 to get 1 agouti from daddy, but no chance of getting any from mom. So he's 50/50 whether he'll be Aa or aa (1 switch on, 1 switch off or both off 50/50). Luckily it only takes 1 A to effect a black based horse. So foal is 50/50 whether or not he gets the bay gene.

While Daddy is sure to pass on one of his Dun genes, mommy has none - again luckily it only takes one to get dilute the color.

So baby would be either Grulla or Bay Dun 

Sorry if that went crazy - I LOVE genetics!


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## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

Okay thank you, and if you wanted a specific colour, like a red roan, what would you have to do to get that colour? As it is not a base colour.


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## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

Also, about my filly, she came from a red dun mare and a black stud (I think he was black not sure) so she came out black. That means that the stud had Ee and the mare had ee, making her black but she could produce a red base foal... am I correct?


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Breezy2011 said:


> Okay thank you, and if you wanted a specific colour, like a red roan, what would you have to do to get that colour? As it is not a base colour.


Red and black are the two bases- everything else is dilutes, red roan (I ASSume you mean bay roan?) is a Black base, diluted with both Agouti (bay) and Roan dilutes.
If you mean chestnut roan it's a red base with roan dilution.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Breezy2011 said:


> Also, about my filly, she came from a red dun mare and a black stud (I think he was black not sure) so she came out black. That means that the stud had Ee and the mare had ee, making her black but she could produce a red base foal... am I correct?


Do you mean Chestnut dun or Bay dun?

If chestnut dun she has ee (both off) Daddy was either Ee or EE (one on, one off or both on) But clearly the E passed on. Baby would have Ee. If the baby did Not get the dun then the mom must have been Dd and the D didn't carry over. So if baby had a baby she has Ee - so depending on the daddy the foal could be red based.
Sounds like you're getting the hang of this.


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## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

Thanks! I am just soooo curious of genetics, I want to know more!!!


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Just tossing this out there, Breezy. When breeding, it's always a crap-shoot as to what you get, even if you know exactly which genes each parent carries because of the different possible ways those genes can combine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Check out this learning game for genetics  it's not perfect but it's interesting!
Horse Coat Color Genetics: An Introduction


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Just tossing this out there, Breezy. When breeding, it's always a crap-shoot as to what you get, even if you know exactly which genes each parent carries because of the different possible ways those genes can combine.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I wouldn't say crap shoot - I think it's all pretty predictable... Except one foal I've got. Mommy was true black (don't know Ee or EE but no other dilutes). Daddy was palomno - foal is buckskin (sure makes sense right?) Daddy was Sabino - no other pattern, mom had no pattern, foal is medicine hat? I think I get lost as soon as I get into patterns I got colors down but patterns x.x


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## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

Thanks, I will be sure to check it out!!


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Just FYI its not dilutions unless it is cream, dun, champagne and the like. Those are dilution genes. they are also modifiers. All genes that are not one of the two bases (red/black) are modifiers.


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

PunksTank said:


> I wouldn't say crap shoot - I think it's all pretty predictable... Except one foal I've got. Mommy was true black (don't know Ee or EE but no other dilutes). Daddy was palomno - foal is buckskin (sure makes sense right?) Daddy was Sabino - no other pattern, mom had no pattern, foal is medicine hat? I think I get lost as soon as I get into patterns I got colors down but patterns x.x


Easy, if daddy was palomino, he could have been hiding agouti since it doesn't express on a red base. Let's assume the dam is Ee aa crcr. Sire could be ee Aa Crcr, producing buckskin, palomino, smoky black, black, bay, chestnut. The colt could be a max expression sabino, resulting in medicine hat markings.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

kassierae said:


> Easy, if daddy was palomino, he could have been hiding agouti since it doesn't express on a red base. Let's assume the dam is Ee aa crcr. Sire could be ee Aa Crcr, producing buckskin, palomino, smoky black, black, bay, chestnut. The colt could be a max expression sabino, resulting in medicine hat markings.


Yup I knew the buckskin, it's the medicine hat that had me confounded - but you're probably right about Sabino!! Didn't think of that! I didn't think a foal could have louder sabino than the parent? But I'm clueless with patterns  Thank you!


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

NdAppy said:


> Just FYI its not dilutions unless it is cream, dun, champagne and the like. Those are dilution genes. they are also modifiers. All genes that are not one of the two bases (red/black) are modifiers.


Interesting I didn't know that thanks


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

Breezy2011 said:


> Okay thank you, and if you wanted a specific colour, like a red roan, what would you have to do to get that colour? As it is not a base colour.


Buy one...

imo


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Minimal marked horses can and do produce loudly marked horses.  Still surprising when it happens but its not uncommon.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Breezy2011 said:


> Okay thank you, and if you wanted a specific colour, like a red roan, what would you have to do to get that colour? As it is not a base colour.





texasgal said:


> Buy one...
> 
> imo


^^Exactly. I've found that most people who start thinking "Okay, what color horses do I need to make a certain color foal" only concern themselves with the color and will not bother with deciding if the animal is actually _worthy_ of breeding.

As for getting a guaranteed red roan, you'd need 2 homozygous red horses (ee) and at least one of them homozygous for roan.

I, myself, have spent years dreaming about getting a blue roan foal and wondering what horses I'd have to have to get that, BUT, I don't have a mare of the proper quality, nor do I have the money to buy a mare of the proper quality to breed to this guy (and I _really_ want that potential foal to be one of his babies).


*sigh* Maybe someday...when I win the lottery.


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## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

So with my mare, she has a blue eye, although she is purebred quarter horse, she still has a pinto gene. I would need to test her to see if she has overo, and if she did, I would need to find a stud that did not have overo genes, in order to avoid a lethal white foal. 

I am not planning on breeding Breeze though, I am just curious. If I did so happen to breed Breeze in the future it would most likely be to this stud:

The Jewel Snipper:









I know he is tested and produces a lot of different colours of foals like this mare, who is now a broodmare:









And this filly:









He produces colts and fillies of colours ranging from palomino, chestnut, black, all the way to duns and roans. The only colour he has not produced is a grey and cream colours.


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## TexasBlaze (Oct 4, 2010)

The stallion is ee and could be any form of agouti. Just because he threw those colors on a different mare doesnt mean he can throw them with yours. You said your mare had a red parent correct? That means you will get 50/50 chances of getting a red or black based foal. Your mares Agouti status is aa and the stallion being sorrel doesnt show whether he carries agouti or not but seeing as how he has thrown a black filly he is either Aa or aa meaning 50/50 whether he could throw a bay or a black with your mare. So your only color choices are Black, bay, sorrel with a possibility of an overo gene from your mare. Just because he's thrown all those things doesnt mean they have come from him. The mares also provide genetics on the baby.

There is no way possible for him to throw a roan, or dun from your mare. And i did want to point out that you posted "He produces colts and fillies of colours ranging from palomino, chestnut, black, all the way to duns and roans. The only colour he has not produced is a grey and cream colours." However palomino IS a cream color.


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## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

TexasBlaze said:


> The stallion is ee and could be any form of agouti. Just because he threw those colors on a different mare doesnt mean he can throw them with yours. You said your mare had a red parent correct? That means you will get 50/50 chances of getting a red or black based foal. Your mares Agouti status is aa and the stallion being sorrel doesnt show whether he carries agouti or not but seeing as how he has thrown a black filly he is either Aa or aa meaning 50/50 whether he could throw a bay or a black with your mare. So your only color choices are Black, bay, sorrel with a possibility of an overo gene from your mare. Just because he's thrown all those things doesnt mean they have come from him. The mares also provide genetics on the baby.
> 
> There is no way possible for him to throw a roan, or dun from your mare. And i did want to point out that you posted "He produces colts and fillies of colours ranging from palomino, chestnut, black, all the way to duns and roans. The only colour he has not produced is a grey and cream colours." However palomino IS a cream color.



Okay, and by cream I am meaning creamello and perlino. If I were to breed, I would not use Breeze, I would buy a broodmare that is registered and has great conformation.


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## kenda (Oct 10, 2008)

That stallion could produce almost any colour except cremello, perlino or smoky cream, depending on the mare, as could any other chestnut stallion. He could certainly produce a grey foal if bred to a grey mare.


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

The stallion is only 50% of the equation. HE isn't soley responsible for all these colors that "he" is producing.

He contributes an e ... which is easily disguised if the mare flips the roan switch, or the black switch, or the dun switch ...

A WHOLE lot will depend on what your mare is carrying that can override the e.


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## TexasBlaze (Oct 4, 2010)

Cremello and perlinos as well as smoaky creams are all double cream genes where they inherited a cream gene from both parents. This stallion doesnt have a cream gene to give therefore will never produce any of these colors. 

However a single cream gene foal is a palomino, buckskins, and smoaky black. These horses only have to have one parent with a cream gene to inherit. Its still a cream gene but only one instead of two.


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## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

kenda said:


> That stallion could produce almost any colour except cremello, perlino or smoky cream, depending on the mare, as could any other chestnut stallion. He could certainly produce a grey foal if bred to a grey mare.


Yes, I know he could, and I know he is only half of the equation, One of the broodmares out where he is, is a grey, but he hasn't produced one yet. This is her:









I am almost sure to, that outside breeders have brought in greys too. I am not saying he cannot produce grey, but he just hasn't yet.


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## TexasBlaze (Oct 4, 2010)

Grey has a 50/50 chance of passing from a grey horse (unless the horse is homozygous. Then it will always pass)


So basically the grey parent just hasnt thrown a grey gene yet. she has the genetics too but didnt pass them on to the foal. 

Grey will always show if it is passed on. ( grgr (not grey) Grgr (heterozygous. Will go grey) GrGr (homozygous. Will go grey faster and will always throw grey foals)


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## Le007 (Jan 7, 2013)

Okay, this was an interesting thread. Because I have no knowledge of coloring.. but now I do! 
(I have a grade mare my Vet refers to as Buckskin Dun, and others call her a Redline Dun) This old dog is learning.


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## TexasBlaze (Oct 4, 2010)

Le007 said:


> Okay, this was an interesting thread. Because I have no knowledge of coloring.. but now I do!
> (I have a grade mare my Vet refers to as Buckskin Dun, and others call her a Redline Dun) This old dog is learning.


If you want to post her in her own thread im sure people would love to help you figure out her true color and explain the genetics behind it.


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## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

I am learning a lot from this thread! 

So going away from Snip, if you had a Creamello stallion and you bred to a red or black mare, would you get a foal with a cream gene, because one parent is carrying it?


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## TexasBlaze (Oct 4, 2010)

yes! Exactly! A cremello stallions cream code looks like this CrCr. He has no choice but to pass on a Cr to his offspring. So his foals will always inherit a cream gene.


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## Le007 (Jan 7, 2013)

TexasBlaze said:


> If you want to post her in her own thread im sure people would love to help you figure out her true color and explain the genetics behind it.


Oh, I will do that. Just need to find a pic of her shed out because you can hardly see her stripe due to winter fuzzy's. Thank you.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

If you were to breed Breeze to that stallion, your foal would potentially be black, chestnut, bay, or brown depending on the stallion's agouti status. Then would have the possibility of inheriting splash or frame (one of which your mare is carrying as those are the two genes to cause blue eyes). The level of expression is not determinable.


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## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

Okay, and if a palomino was bred to a palomino, would the foal inherit a cream gene, because both parents have cream genes.


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## TexasBlaze (Oct 4, 2010)

Not necessarily. paliminos are genetically ee (red based) Crcr (one cream gene). The foal would always be red based but each parent has the potential to pass either a Cr OR a cr. If both parents passed the cr gene the code for the foal would be crcr and no cream. However they could also BOTH pass a Cr and you could get a cremello foal. But one could pass a cream and the other might not making the foal Crcr and would be a palomino.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Not necessarily. Each parent has a 50% chance of passing it on. Palomino + Palomino = chestnut, palomino, or cremello. The foal will for certain be red-based because red based are always homozygous red. 

Have you heard of Punnett squares? Learning to use them would really help answer a lot of your questions here without waiting for people to post.


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

Breezy ... you'll have a much better understanding of "what will I get if I cross this with that" if you get a basic understanding of genetics.

Go out and research horse color genetics on the web .. there are some very good sites that will give you basic horse color genetics..

It's fun!


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

HORSE COLOR EDUCATIONAL PAGES: Learn about blue roan, grullo, champagne, buckskin, and other colors

Morgan Colors- Your Information Station for Morgan Color Genetics and Color History

I prefer Morgan Colors. It isn't specific to Morgans because Morgans carry nearly all modifiers, but when you get deeper into your studies, you'll need to start remembering what breeds don't have certain genes (Random examples: No tobiano in QHs, no dun in TBs, no cream in Arabs)


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