# Bits or No bits



## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

Your beating a dead horse here. We had a topic EXACTLY like this one a week ago, got pretty heated too... grab yourself some popcorn and read up. Of you do a search you'll find dozens, if not a hundred, threads about this topic. 

And any device is only as cruel as you make it. I've seen horses rubbed raw from bit less bridles and mouths with sores. It doesn't matter what it is... There's always going to be a donkeys rear out there abusing it!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

Also, my horse can be ridden in anything from a hay string to a medium port with a 7" shank. Typically I ride her in a light dog bone with a 3" shank or her rope halter. So no, I certainly don't use pain to control my horse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

If the bit is painful, the rider is wrong. But frankly, some of what you have heard is wrong.

The jawbone doesn't cut thru flesh. If it did, lots of horses would have bloody mouths. They also would be terrified of bits, and a great many are not even a little afraid of bits.

"_those who ride in double jointed bits, when you pull that bit the joint jabs the top of the jaw_"

You are the first person I've ever seen who claims a double jointed bit will poke the roof of the mouth. That claim is usually made about single jointed bits, and is largely incorrect. Studies done with X-rays so we can SEE what actually happens show the single jointed snaffle will sink more into the tongue that it goes up to the roof, so there is normally no contact. There could be exceptions of course, but the common claim that a single jointed snaffle pokes the roof of the mouth is largely wrong. A double jointed bit will put more pressure on the tongue, but many horses prefer them.

If you take my mare out on a trail with a bitless bridle, she may be fine. Or she may run off with you...and if she does, you won't stand a chance of stopping her. People didn't invent bits for the fun of putting metal in a horse's mouth. They simply work better than NOT doing it, for the large majority of horses and riders.

You spent 2 years trying to put your horse in "an outline", which is certainly worse than riding her in a bit. Maybe you should have tried some time like this - and notice the evil curb bit, cruel, cruel!:










But somehow, I doubt I'll change your mind...:?

Mia at the end of another painful ride, the bit cutting into her flesh:










Previous thread:

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-tack-equipment/bits-painful-343425/

And BTW - YouTube videos may not be the most reliable source of information.


----------



## MangoRoX87 (Oct 19, 2009)

Well, I ride my reining horse in a BIG SCARY CATHEDRAL PORT BIT WITH ROLLERS.
And, I never have to touch his face. If you show horses, you can't go bitless (most shows/classes that is, until you get into speed/sorting/jumping). The horses are trained to be SOFT so that way you aren't pulling on their faces..my horse is perfectly happy with me just not touching his reins/face at all because, I don't need to.

I have never had a horse have a bloody or even lightly bruised mouth unless they accidentally bit their tongue or something.

My barrel horses ride in 3 piece bits or what i would consider I double jointed bit, and they don't come any where close to anything you said. Even single jointed bits, like snaffles, don't do that, because their is a horse in the way, pull on both sides and it puts even pressure on the tongue, no pinching or poking.

All of my horses could be trail ridden with a rope halter if I wanted to. You can't SHOW like that though.


----------



## MangoRoX87 (Oct 19, 2009)

I mean, are you gonna tell me this horses bit is causing it's pain? Well trained horses with well trained riders don't have to rely on the bit hardly at all. It's a refinement of a cue, just like spurs; used improperly they can be painful, but properly used they do no harm.

http://www.localhorse.com/photos/20360_135485D9.jpg


----------



## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

My horse has never shoved his tongue over his double jointed bit. He's not a stupid animal. If he's in pain or doesn't like something, he lets me know. You know what makes him angry beyond reason? A bitless bridle.


Experiences with ONE horse are not enough to make blanket statements about ALL horses.

Also, a SINGLE jointed bit can sometimes cause pressure on the roof of the mouth, not a double jointed one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I ride with a bit. never once have I thought I am cruel. If Z wants to stop, or back up or turn when I ask him, he will have like zero bit pressure. it's his choice to respond to a whisper, or a shout. I work for the whisper, but am ready and able to shout if necessary.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

How much pressure do I put on the bit? Whatever it takes...typically about a little finger's worth. But if she thinks she is in a race, it might be more like 20 lbs. Her choice. Not mine.

The kindest bit or bitless is based on what your horse will listen to. Trooper is a laid-back gelding. My daughter claims he has a 'stash of weed' hidden in the corral. Mia? She can get wound up over most anything. But both horses are more confident in a bit, because they understand more of what their rider wants when their rider uses a bit - and THAT gives them confidence. I've logged ample hours on both of them using a sidepull halter to know WHY I now ride them with a bit, and why Mia's bit is normally a curb bit.

I love this picture because it clearly shows the difference between their personalities (and their riders):


----------



## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

My mare tosses her head, and is slow to respond, and I end up yanking hard on her face when i use a sidpull od dr cook. My mare will go more happily in a tom thumb, than a snaffle or bittles. It depends on the horse. I have seen horses able to ride in mechanical hacks, while mine will flip over if you HARDLY tap the reins. Some cant stand bits, some prefer them. Depends on the rider, and depends on the horse.


----------



## Rideordie112 (Dec 7, 2013)

This is my terribly abused horse in a snaffle bit. Can't you see him writhing in pain as I mercilessly crank down on his face?
















Here he is standing around in pain after a ride trying to recover from the obvious damage his bit has done. 








I'm sorry for getting dramatic here, but I'm so sick of this whole "bits hurt horses" crap. NO THEY DONT. Bad riders hurt horses.
Saying bits hurt horses is like saying guns kill people, and spoons make you fat
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

madyasmkey said:


> HOWEVER, I do still think less contact on a stronger bit rather than permanently pulling a horse on a short bit or bit less is better


Bits are cruel. They may not cause the moths to bleed because they do a lot of damage underneath to the flesh. A bigger bit that doesn't have to be touched is better. Just think though, what if you fall of on a hack or a trail and your horse bolts. When they stop they'll probably eat some grass, the reins slip and they stand on it, Lucy their head and instead of taking their time to think and take the pressure off by moving their for, they panic and pull against it more. Those situations are when horses get badly hurt. And I don't know whether Western competitions allow bitless, pretty sure they do bit every single British one let's bitless riders compete.

If you are willing to put the time in to train a horse to ride in a bit so responsively why not spend that time on not putting a bit in their mouths.

Everyone seems to just read the bit they don't like about my post and then reply but I said all horses are different and work in didn't ways. If a horse leafs well and doesn't evade the head collar then they will ride bitless just as well. The responsive they are on the ground the less you use your lead rope, right? Same goes for riding if you're willing to put the time and effort in to train the with a bit, try putting the same time and effort without a bit. 

Of cause no-one ever will because bits are too strongly placed in the equine world when they shouldn't be. Horses are not designed to have anything but food and water in their mouths. 

I do ride others horses in bits and don't get me wrong, they work well but they would work just as well or better without a bit. 

Also, my horse was just an example, I know many horses I have backed and trained that work better bitless. 

I hadn't really looked up on the straight bar but just from looking at it I'd say it's the kindest, but I don't know much about that. 

Again, all horses are different and given the chance I still think MOST would work much happier without a chunk of metal in their moths. Also, most horses I have known to finish their career in showjumping, barrel racing and other fast working competitions have permanently bruised mouths. Not saying you do that to your house, but people get bruises from leaning on their legs for too long and bits are known, even when not doing anything, to making their tongues go numb and can take hours to get the feel back. Everything about bits are not designed for the comfort of the horse. 

Whether someone chooses to take advantage of the fact they can use pain to control them takes bits into a whole new level of pain. Those who ride in an outline and have contact will make mistakes like being left behind and even if you let the reins slip, that's still going to hurt. 

Again everything is only as painful as you make it but bits make it easier to cause pain.


----------



## Iseul (Mar 8, 2010)

I caused more pain to my mare riding in a mechanical hack or her rope halter. I don't get the finesse, the speed, or the respect without the bit. I have to yank to get her to do anything, which is pointless. I go for highly sensitive and reactive to my cues, so I give the smallest cue possible before I jack the pressure up. BUT, bitless makes my mare angry and she will throw her head, snake it sideways, etc..whereas with a bit she'll hang her head, cock a leg, and relax.

Bits do not make it any easier to cause pain. A tope hackamore rubbing the flesh off the horse's poor nose is just as easy.

IMO, you sound like a child complaining that something hurts. Like others have said, this topic has been beaten to death, more than once. Do a bit more research, because every horse I've trained/retrained/worked with prefers a bit over anything bitless.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MangoRoX87 (Oct 19, 2009)

1..I have fallen off and had them step on the reins. They are familiar enough with pressure they calmly just back up. Guess what happens in the same situation with a bitless bridle? Same thing if the horse knows to move away from pressure.

2. BITS ARE STRONGLY IN PLACE ON THE EQUINE WORLD BECAUSE UOU HAVE TO HAVE THEM FOR SHOWS. Showing, is a really, really, really big industry. Flat out, you cannot show in bitless bridles! If most horses would work better, please go jump on a 1D barrel horse, a champion working cow horse, etc. and see how that works for you. Sure, maybe trail horses, but once you get into performance horses and showing, you are going to need REFINEMENT of cues. That's what bits give you. 

3. My horse would be irritated as all get out if I was pulling on his whole head, vs. one very small amout of pressure on the bit (which most bits are actually designed with the horses mouth in mind, that's how good bits work and good fitting bits sell the best, nobody makes bits out of random thoughts). My horse works off of 90% leg pressure, I don't have to yank or hardly touch the bit most of the ride. Can you raise the reins in a bitless and your horse be able to tell that he needs to round out? Bits with shanks can do that with very little pressure (still slack in the reins) because they have that leverage. 

4. I have seen people be just as rough with hackamore as bits. None if my horses have EVER had bruised mouths, even if I have had to pally a good amout of pressure (which even bitless people have to do sometimes).


----------



## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

" Again everything is only as painful as you make it but bits make it easier to cause pain."

I think your last line pretty much sums up everyone's thoughts. 

Yeah, if your pulling, ripping, yanking, balancing off the reins, etc you horse will NO DOUBT cause pain to the horse. That's why a lot of our lesson horses who go well in a side pull are put in a side pull. But let me tell you, sometimes a nice hard yank in the nose isn't any bargain either. 

If your hand are soft and your horse has been properly trained to respond to a bit there should be no pain involved. 

As far as accidents... You really can't factor in the slight possibility of an accident happening to why bits shouldn't be used. For one they can be very painful for a horse to step on a side pull or mechanical hack too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ropinbiker (Aug 3, 2012)

OP ... first, don't believe everything you see/read on the internet...the "bits are cruel" people are starting there, but most don't even want you to ride a horse--because that is cruel as well. So, keep on the path you are on, and maybe you will not be able to ride your horse in a few years. And, the one guy here in the US that is a "bitless" person, watch him ride his horses without a bit -- they don't stop, turn, or do anything really good. Also, their heads are usually pointed up the whole time.

If your horse was opening its mouth when you were riding it with a bit, it was YOUR fault. Not the bit's.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Folks need to drop the YouTube infomercials and pay attention to the horses that exist in reality.

No, not all horses prefer bitless. Mine were ridden bitless for several years, and they prefer bits. They are calmer, more responsive, and yes, happier. Why? Because they WANT to obey their riders, and bits communicate more clearly than bitless. Many people have the same experience.

Yes, the horse's mouth was designed to hold a bit. Why else would they be born with a gap in their teeth?

"_Bits are cruel. They may not cause the moths to bleed because they do a lot of damage underneath to the flesh._"

That would cause a bruise, and a sore spot. It would cause pain, infection, swelling, and a horse who is terrified of having anything put in its mouth. And all that ignores the reality in which most horses live out their lives.

"_Same goes for riding if you're willing to put the time and effort in to train the with a bit, try putting the same time and effort without a bit._" 

Again, many of us have. Mia did 3 years bitless before she ever had a bit in her mouth. She had a year with snaffles before I put a curb in her mouth. And she is a much better horse after a year in a curb bit. Not just for riding, either - she has learned the world is not as scary as she thought, and she is a calmer horse while just hanging around in her corral.

"_ bits are known, even when not doing anything, to making their tongues go numb and can take hours to get the feel back_"

Really? Any proof? Any? Not from YouTube, but from scientists who have studied how bits act? My evil & cruel curb bits don't do that to Mia. If bits numbed a horse's mouth, just by being in it, then they would have no effect on a horse after a few hours. Yet they do. I can ride my horse for several hours, then direct her with my pinkie finger on the reins, or by taking some of the slack out of the reins. If she can feel the weight of my pinkie on the reins after a few hours, in what sense is her mouth 'numb'?

"_Those who ride in an outline and have contact will make mistakes like being left behind and even if you let the reins slip, that's still going to hurt. _"

I'm not a fan of outlines, frames, or riding with contact...but I don't ignore the millions of horses ridden English style successfully to claim it causes them pain. Frankly, I blame MY HANDS instead of assuming others are causing pain. I simply do not ride well with constant contact, so I do not. I let the weight of the reins, amplified by the leverage of the shanks, create all the 'contact' I need for my purposes. But I do not use my failure as justification to accuse others of causing pain...

"_...bits make it easier to cause pain..._"

Some probably do. However, a mechanical hackamore that is not properly adjusted can break a horse's nose. My rope sidepull once removed a bunch of hair from Mia's face, and I'd bet THAT wasn't a fun feeling for her. The crossunder style I tried on her caused her to panic, because it squeezed her head and didn't give quick relief the way a bit will. 

And if your horse bolts in blind panic in the desert, heedless of any highways coming up or drop offs or large rocks, which is more likely to save her life - a sidepull or a curb bit? Been there, done that, and the answer is a curb bit. A mechanical hackamore might also work, but there is nothing about a mechanical hackamore that makes it gentler than a curb bit unless your horse has a mouth injury.

Some horses do great bitless, and that is fine. A lot depends on the horse and the goals of the rider. For putzing around on a horse like Trooper (our Appy), a sidepull halter is fine. Mia does better in a curb even when just putzing around. But if a bit caused Mia pain, she would fight. She doesn't.


----------



## MyBoySi (Dec 1, 2011)

My horse goes much better in a bit then anything bitless. It takes much less pressure to get my point across then hauling on him in a rope halter etc. I bet if you could ask him he would tell you the same. Although at the same time I'm sure he would tell you ha would much rather hang out in his paddock all day not being ridden at all and eating. 

"Horses are not designed to have anything but food and water in their mouths."

And as far as this goes horses are also not designed to carry a saddle and rider on their back, wear shoes, live in a barn or paddock etc. For that matter even have contact with people considering they are a prey animal. 

If the OP is so concerned with what's humane and what's not maybe they should set their horses free to live as nature intended, farting glitter and chasing rainbows. Me? I'm going to use my horse as I see fit


----------



## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

I'll say the exact same things that I said on a nearly identical thread that was made about a week ago.

Firstly, many horse show associations (particularly in the English world) require that your horse have a bit, and usually they are particular about the type. That's why many of us don't "spend the time" trying to train our horses bitless. 

Secondly, the "not natural" part? Really? When did wearing leather equipment and carrying a 100+ lb rider become part of their physiology? You'll have to remind me.

I ride my horse in a gag. I KNOW how to ride, and how not to be harsh on his mouth. He is happy as a little clam, and has no issues with it.

If YOU want to ride without a bit, cool. Do it, have fun, enjoy your horse. These preachy threads are a little bit of a turnoff, though...


----------



## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Humans were not designed to wear clothes, and yet I don't see many people complaining about that...


----------



## Sahara (Jul 23, 2010)

bsms said:


> Yes, the horse's mouth was designed to hold a bit. Why else would they be born with a gap in their teeth?


Please tell me you are trying to be facetious.


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

I can ride my horse, better than anyone else could ride her. All English competitions will accept bitless. It is not a rule. I don't put shoes on my horse because they are again something that causes unessisary problems in horses. It has been nice reading the way people feel about their bits, and I want attacking your way of riding just that I think bits are cruel and cause more problems than nessisary. Also, those saying they don't work well bitless and are uncomfortable in a rope halter when riding then they'll be the same on the ground. 

Hackamores are an exception for bitless riding because they are horrible and I have known people to restrict breathing with them. How ever a horse that leads properly should respond the same when you're on their back. If a horse leads and gives to pressure while being relaxed and then are not happy being ridden in the same head collar, you're doing something wrong. 

And with my horse opening her mouth when putting pressure on wasn't my fault. It was my fault when I did nothing about it and put a flash on. Top dressage horses while working do not look happy and neither to show jumpers. 

When it comes it the numbing of the tongue it was a video on youtube with lots of sources and those sources came from scientific evidence.


I may not get the exact same from my horse by lifting my reins and getting an outline, but I don't want her to be ridden like that. If I wanted to, I could. 

bits are cruel. But in the right hands they can do well. But bitless may be a little harder to train with, it is the better option for a horse if the owner knows how to train them properly without a bit.


----------



## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

bsms said:


> You spent 2 years trying to put your horse in "an outline", which is certainly worse than riding her in a bit.


I have noticed a correlation on this forum, among people who ride with a lot of contact, thinking bits are cruel. Maybe they need to consider it is cruel because they are riding with a lot of contact, not that the bit itself is the problem.

I will probably get flamed for this, but I see people on this forum, almost constantly, preaching snaffles are the only mild bit and if your horse doesn't respond well in a snaffle he needs more training (or like this poster, don't use a bit at all because they are all cruel!). And these are frequently people who ride English style with contact, trying to put the horse in a frame. I guess because they think it looks pretty (I admit it does) and they are somehow doing it for the benefit of the horse "working correctly" (which I don't think has actually been proven.....horses don't travel collected in a natural state very often, so I would argue that the horse is not designed to travel that way). Then, if the horse gapes it mouth or flings it's head, they use nosebands and martingales to try to quiet the horse's protests. 

Maybe, just maybe, if they didn't ride in contact to begin with, they could actually use a curb bit and have finesse with their horse. No pulling, no nosebands and martingales. Just a feather soft horse. Or course the bit doesn't do the training for you, but what I am saying is that you can achieve a beautiful, light horse with a curb bit. And most of the time your horse is traveling with a loose rein with no contact at all. How beautiful is that?

So yes, please, use what works. If your horse rides in a halter, great, I'm all for it! That's fantastic. But, I have had this casual observation that the people bashing bits are either beginners who don't know any better or people who are too heavy on their horse's mouths and ride with tons of contact and then wonder why their horse is unhappy. Instead of looking at themselves, they say "it must be the cruel bit!"

I don't think I know a single experienced horseman who thinks bits are cruel. Maybe there is one out there, but I have never met one.


----------



## EquineObsessed (May 24, 2013)

Honestly, I think its ignorant for you to say that you can ride your horse better than anyone else could. There are lots of great riders in the world, and I would be honored to see them ride my horse. Are you better than non horsey people at riding your horse? Probably. I've never seen you ride. But there is always someone out there better than you are.

I have had horses that prefer a bitless, others who excel in a bit. Soft hands should the goal of every rider. When the hands are correct, communication will be effective, and NOT CRUEL in any way. I love riding bridleless, just as a fun thing to do, and something different every now and then. Do what works for you and your horse. The fact is, horses have been ridden both poorly and excellently with bits for thousands of years. Bits are not bad. Riders are bad, hands are bad. I would argue that just as much or more damage can be done in a bitless, in the wrong hands.


----------



## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

So, basically what you're saying, OP, is that everything you do is correct and best? It's that kind of attitude that makes people think 16 year olds don't know what they're talking about...
You can ride your horse better than anyone? Really? Anyone in the world? That's interesting.

And below are the USEF rules for Dressage regarding bridles and bits. So you were wrong there, as well.

3. For Federation Third and Fourth Level tests same as (2) above, or a simple double bridle (bridoon [snaffle] and bit [curb] and curb chain, cavesson noseband only). The curb “chain” can be made of metal, leather or rubber. A lip strap and rubber or leather cover for curb chain are optional. 4. For FEI tests ridden at national competitions, a plain snaffle bridle or simple double bridle may be used, as described above in DR121.2-.3. However, for USEF High Performance qualifying and championship classes, USEF Young Adult qualifying and championship classes, NAJYRC qualifying classes, USEF Junior qualifying and championship classes, and USEF Young Rider qualifying and championship classes, a double bridle is mandatory. Only snaffles, curbs and bridoons pictured under Figure 1-B are permitted in FEI tests. For the FEI Dressage Tests for 4, 5, and 6-year-old horses and the USEF Dressage Test for 4-year old horses, a
plain snaffle bridle is required, as above (DR121.2). However, when a snaffle is used in FEI tests, a crescent noseband is not permitted and a snaffle is required as described in Figure I and as pictured in Figure 1B. In addition to the crescent noseband, the crossed (figure-8, Mexican) noseband is not permitted for the FEI Dressage Tests for 4, 5,and 6-year-old horses and the USEF test for 4-year old horses.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Sahara said:


> Please tell me you are trying to be facetious.


Not really. The idea is that a horse's mouth invariably experiences pain because "_Horses are not designed to have anything but food and water in their mouth_".

While horses were not 'designed' to have bits, bits are designed to work in their mouth - just like a retainer fits a human mouth. In the case of my Jr Cow Horse Dogbone, the metal is shaped to fit the horse's mouth. It is made of sweet iron to encourage salvation, and the dogbone has a copper roller for my horse to play with:








​
The Billy Allen has less curve, but retains the copper roller and is easy for her to hold it in her mouth:








​ 
It doesn't matter if the horse was designed for the bit, or the bit was designed for the horse - they match. And if a bit does not match, many horses will let you know. Mia has only flat out refused to use one style of bit more than 2 rides: a loose ring, french link snaffle with fat hollow mouthpieces. She made it very clear that fat nasty thing would NOT go in her mouth a third time...unlike how she behaves with the Jr Cow Horse, Billy Allen, or single joint snaffles.

I was merely using humor to point out that bits and horses' mouths do, by design, go together...

"_When it comes it the numbing of the tongue it was a video on youtube with lots of sources and those sources came from scientific evidence._"

Hmmm...yet my horse, and every other horse I've ever met, continues to respond to light pressure on the bit after hours of riding - after their mouth is supposedly numb. Mia can feel the left side of the mouthpiece in the Billy Allen rotate 5-10 deg with her supposedly numb mouth. YouTube is not a very reliable source of information. In this case, what you are finding there contradicts what almost everyone with a horse experiences...


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

I'm not without experience at all, I work well with horses. With our without a bit I can ride without contact and can ask her to ride an outline to, I don't think an outline is the "correct way" is how I ride. Therefore a bit is unfair for her and many other horses. I didn't say all bits are cruel I said it's the handler and bits are their tools. I'm not saying everyone should ride bitless because some work well with it. Again people are just reading the part they don't like. Bits can work well if you don't use the reins as much as say people in dressage do. However if you can get the same out of a bitless bridle then why put a hunk of metal in their mouths. They can't eat properly with his and I like to let my horse eat when we stop on hacks. Houses ate better off without boys and unfortunately for those who have owners who can't control them, his will be relied on until they are recognised for what they can be which is cruel.


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

EquineObsessed said:


> Honestly, I think its ignorant for you to say that you can ride your horse better than anyone else could. There are lots of great riders in the world, and I would be honored to see them ride my horse. Are you better than non horsey people at riding your horse? Probably. I've never seen you ride. But there is always someone out there better than you .


 There are plenty of better riders than me, but my horse is very selective and has taken a lot of time to train to my aids, not what everyone else knows to do when riding.


----------



## EquineObsessed (May 24, 2013)

Not saying you don't have experience, but in my experience, those with the most experience are the most humble, and will be the first to tell you how much they still have to learn. I just said 'experience' wayyy too many times. I'm just pointing out that a little humility goes a long ways. There are a lot of truly experienced and gifted folk on this forum that we can all learn a lot from, if we don't assume that we already have it all figured out.


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

And numbing tales long long rides to cause, never the less it does it. If we leave a bit on our am for hours and hours on end it will make us numb


----------



## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

*Trailhorserider's responses in bold:*



madyasmkey said:


> I don't put shoes on my horse because they are again something that causes unessisary problems in horses.
> 
> *I am pro-barefoot. I won't tell someone they should not shoe their horse, but I never plan to go back to shoes again with my horses. I definitely think it's healthier. So we have common ground here.
> 
> ...


If you get good results bitless, then go for it! I wish you the best of luck. And I mean that sincerely. It's worth working towards.  

But it's sort of like horse shoes. I used to shoe my own horses (I had training for it) and now I don't ever want to go back to shoes again. It's not that I think ALL shoes are cruel. I just feel like barefoot is the healthier, better option for my horses. And it probably is for 90% of the horses out there. BUT, I won't make a blanket statement "horseshoes are cruel." Because for some horses are owners they may be the best option. Do I think they are overused and weaken feet in general, YES. But they are a legitimate option for some horses. More owners need to educate themselves on hoof care. :thumbsup:


----------



## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

madyasmkey said:


> I know this might be a touchy one to go on, but I myself prefer riding a horse without a bit. Not saying I won't ride a horse with a bit in but my horse responds much better without a bit and is clearly much happier. I will go as far as to say bits are cruel for horses because they are. HOWEVER, I do still think less contact on a stronger bit rather than permanently pulling a horse on a short bit or bit less is better. My view is that horses shouldn't have metal is their moths and unless they have been made numb to the head collar, all horses are better off without a bit. I say this having ridden my horse for almost 2 years struggling for an outline and as soon as we go bitless she works much happier and easiest. Being part Arab she will always struggle with a lot of more back end powered moves, yet it even helps with them too.
> 
> Just thought I'd also say those who ride on the bit, the bone on the bottom jaw is sharp and can cut flesh. When you pull that bit it pushes the gums into that very sharp bone, no matter the type of bit. Furthermore, those who ride in double jointed bits, when you pull that bit the joint jabs the top of the jaw, usually causing them to open their moths or put their tongue over the bit too soften the blow. In response we put a flash on, closing their moths meaning they cannot avoid the pain. Out of all the bits the rubber straight bar snaffle is what I'd say it's the softest.
> 
> ...


(Sorry, not reading all the posts. Just had a comment to make so if I'm repeating anything you have my apologies).

Ok, while I do not use bits, it's not from the perspective of them being cruel. While some bits a more severe than others, any bit can be made harmful to some degree if used in a way to cause pain or not harmful if never used a manner that would cause pain.

Even riding with just a halter (or anything else on the head/nose) can be made uncomfortable for the horse. I'm not going to go into massive amounts of detail, but it must be remembered that "discomfort" is a basic concept in teaching a horse (even within the herd dealing with each other). e.g. a horse won't come when called so I "pressure" it by making it keep moving...away from me...until it's tired of being pressured and decides coming to me on it's own is better than being "pushed" (even if it's just symbolically) to keep moving. Horses dislike "pressure".

A bit is simply a tool like any other tool and can be used correctly or incorrectly. While I haven't trained a horse of mine to use a bit in probably 40 years I've still ridden other people's horses with a bit. My reason for not using one is pure practicality and convenience. It's cheaper :lol: (less to buy) and because of the riding I do it's easier for the horse to graze without a bit in it's mouth when I take a break (during an all day ride I like to give them about a 10-15 minute grazing break about every hour or more). This way I don't have to remove the bit and they can eat with dealing with it being in their mouth. I train my horses without a bit, so that's all they know. However, even a halter, while not likely to "painful" (depending on the halter and circumstances) it can always be made uncomfortable. In point of fact there are some "bitless" solutions that can be more painful and damaging then some bits.

Of course there is also the benefit that my dental bills for my horses ends up being nothing or next to nothing. e.g. my older mare's last upper right incisor extents little bit beyond it's lower mate which causes a small hook to develop over a couple of years and that's all she needs is to have the "hook" taken off every couple of years. So it has seemed that since I gave up bits I haven't had any horses needed much floating done over the years (or maybe I've just been incredibly lucky with all my horses since giving up bits ).

But I digress. The point is I hardly think a bit, in and of itself, is "cruel". It's how they are used that can make them cruel. Any more than a hammer is cruel, but if someone kept missing steel nail and hitting the nail on their finger it will quickly seem cruel. That would mean that a hammer in their hands is a cruel tool. It doesn't make the hammer itself a cruel tool and shouldn't be used by someone more competent with using it.


----------



## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

its lbs not miles said:


> (Sorry, not reading all the posts. Just had a comment to make so if I'm repeating anything you have my apologies).
> 
> Ok, while I do not use bits, it's not from the perspective of them being cruel. While some bits a more severe than others, any bit can be made harmful to some degree if used in a way to cause pain or not harmful if never used a manner that would cause pain.
> 
> ...


Hey there, *its lbs not miles*. I would be curious what type of bitless option you ride in. I trail ride too and am always looking at different tack ideas.


----------



## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

As someone else said, we are all probably arguing with a 16 year old. :lol:


----------



## ropinbiker (Aug 3, 2012)

OP, lope(slowly canter) your horse in a small circle to the left or right. Then, ask the horse to tip it's nose to the inside. When doing this, does your horse drop its shoulder? If so, how do you signal the horse to pick up his inside shoulder? And, can you do it with one hand? If your answer is, I would signal him to lift the shoulder by using my inside leg, then ok. But, now, I need you to move his hip to the right....see, this can't be done in a halter one-handed...while at a slow lope. Now, do this at full speed. Can't be done in a halter one handed. Before you tell me I don't know how to ride a horse in a halter, the first two or so rides I put on all of my horses are done in a halter. So, I am very familiar with them, and using them to ride with. I can ride all of my horses in a halter all day, BUT once I need to use them to work cattle, or ride a fence, etc. the halter becomes useless as a means to effectively communicate what i NEED the horse to do in a matter of a second or two.

So, yes, I believe you can do alot of things with a halter, but, start doing speedwork, jump, work cows, or anything that isn't a "trained" or "ingrained" pattern for the horse, and you will find you need a better form of communication.


----------



## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

trailhorserider said:


> Hey there, *its lbs not miles*. I would be curious what type of bitless option you ride in. I trail ride too and am always looking at different tack ideas.


For the most part a halter has worked although I did use a bosal once. Rope halters probably have been used the most, but not for any particular reason (other than I can make them easier :lol: and they are easy to modify). Last year I was gifted a bitless bridle (cook's I think). My older mare does just as well with the halter, but the younger one does seem to like it better. Not sure why, since I work them to neck rein which ultimately doesn't rely on the head, mouth or nose, but just he neck. Probably why the halter works just as well with the older one since she's been at it longer.

I gave up bits (to my grandmother's and one uncle's disapproval, although my grandfather and father were ok with it) in the 70's after grabbing two sections of baling twine to loop under my horse's neck and jumping on her bareback to go catch cows that had gotten out and meandering in the direction that lead to the highway (something I'd done many times). It dawned on me "why am I bothering with a bit and bridle?". My horse was a working horse and neck reined beautifully. So I started just hooking reins or even leads to her halter and worked her like that from then on. Every horse since then I've just not bothered with bits and bridles. Best benefit was, as I already mentioned, for long, all day rides (like long weekend trips where I might ride out from home and come back in 2 or 3 days) since she could graze without dealing with the bit and I never had to remove it.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_And numbing tales long long rides to cause, never the less it does it._"

I've never ridden my horse for 12 hours...but I've known plenty of folks who have ridden theirs for 12-16 hours at a stretch, and none of them have had problems with the horse's mouth going numb.

My horses are sometimes allowed a few mouthfuls of grass or mesquite while wearing a bit. It doesn't seem to cause a problem. Except for BLM mustang Cowboy, who considers the desert an all you can eat buffet. We're working on that, but he sure doesn't allow a bit to interfere with eating!

I ride with a rope halter on underneath the bridle, so dropping the bit at a stop takes me...15-30 seconds? About the same to put it back on, which would not be the case if they were unhappy about wearing a bridle.

"_However if you can get the same out of a bitless bridle then why put a hunk of metal in their mouths._"

Well, that is kind of the point. Many of us have tried bitless, and we get more out of our horse with a bit than bitless. The difference between bitless and a bit with my horses is like the differences between writing in sand with a big stick and using paper & pen. Both can be done, but the writing is much clearer and easier to comprehend when a pen & paper are used.


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

It doesn't matter how old I am, my underlying point is still valid. I can control my horse just as easily without a bit as anyone could with a bit. I ride in a bridle so it puts pressure on the poll and her nose. I have risen in a hamlet and when I go Western riding I ride using a halter. And I don't always ride in an outline I do usually ride with her reins loose and let her do what she likes with her head, it's a lot easier working bitless with her and I can control her perfectly well bitless if not better than in a bit at a flat out gallop.


----------



## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

I don't know why I'm bothering posting, but anyways. 

I believe in being open minded, and always learning new things. Making blanket statements against thousands and thousands of people, who are making decisions based on the wisdom of thousands of years of horsemanship, is kind of ridiculous. 

Life is all about balance. If you are going to get way off balance about the cruelty of bits and shoes, by all means don't educate yourself, why not keep going on that train of thought? Why don't we criticize the effect of weight on a horses back, or the effect of pulling a carriage on a harness horse? by the insurmountable evidence presented regarding the negative aspects of actually using a horse, we should all kick them out to pasture immediately, and just enjoy them from a distance.

I'm not opposed to bits, nor going bit less, I don't disagree with shoes, boots or barefoot. I have no issues with treeless saddles or treed, English or western. 

I have personally seen many examples of horses that were EXTREMELY unhappy in a bitless bridle, heads in the air, ears pinned, tail swishing, while their "cruelly" bitted counterparts stood calmly watching on, ears forward, happy expressions on their faces. I wont entirely discount bitless bridles(that natural and dr cooks kinds, specifically), but saying that every horse is happier in one is an absolute falsehood.


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

I doesn't say every horse would be happier. If they are happier without a bit it's much beget than having a bit. I said all horses are different. Again people are taking my words out of context. Not all bits are cruel, I it depends on the rider. However horses are more often than not better off without a bit.


----------



## MangoRoX87 (Oct 19, 2009)

The AQHA, APHA, ApHC and who knows what else ALL REQUIRE bits in English competitions. In fact very very few associations allow bitless.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

_"just that I think bits are cruel and cause more problems than nessisary. Also, those saying they don't work well bitless and are uncomfortable in a rope halter when riding then they'll be the same on the ground._"
_
"If a horse leads and gives to pressure while being relaxed and then are not happy being ridden in the same head collar, you're doing something wrong._"
_
"Bits are cruel. They may not cause the moths to bleed because they do a lot of damage underneath to the flesh._"
_
"Everything about bits are not designed for the comfort of the horse. _"
_
"horses are more often than not better off without a bit."_

In what sense are people taking your statements out of context?

When you make statements like that, and then claim that everyone who uses a bit is NOT cruel, you are simply contradicting yourself. If all bits do what you say, then anyone using a bit would be cruel.

If your point is that a person can misuse a bit to cause pain, then yes, we all agree. I don't know anyone who claims a bit can never cause pain. However, many of us have figured out our horses go better - more willingly, more confidently, and with more finesse - in a bit than in any of the bitless bridles we've tried.

If you wish to simply say bitless works well for you and your horse in what you do...fine. I'm happy for you both. My three horses behave differently. But when you say that horses will behave the same in a rope halter while ridden as when being led, you are wrong. From the ground, a rope halter puts pressure on the poll. From the saddle, it does not. And thus horses understand and respond differently.

Have you ever tried to tip the horse's nose to the inside of a turn while using a sidepull? Unless the horse already knows to do it, it won't work. Been there, done that, switched Trooper to a snaffle and got the job done in a single ride.

Ever try to restrain ("curb") a scared horse with a rope sidepull? Been there, done that, removed the hair from her face - and she still bolted. With a curb bit, she stood her ground, and has become a much calmer horse since she found out the scary thing goes away if you hold your ground. Or that, given the chance, her rider will dismount and pull the cactus spines out of her butt!

Use the tool that meets your need. I would cheerfully ride Mia in this:








​
BUT! That is not the tool that would keep her calm and responsive on a trail. Maybe someday. Not now. For now, this is what causes her to relax:








​


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

My bridle mainly attaches to the poll then attaches to the nose bands and then the reins. I used to ride in a bit and in my style of riding she flight it and it was horrible but bitless it is so much better and kinder.


----------



## Shoebox (Apr 18, 2012)

Oh boy. I don't know why I'm going to bother to offer up my experience, but here it is!

I have a draft cross who, due to her life before I got her being used as a commercial trail horse (for people who had no idea what they were doing, no doubt having dozens of strangers misuse a bit in her mouth a day for years) strongly dislikes a bit, every single one I have tried on her. She can and will go in one with minimal fuss, but with her it is an absolute night and day difference when I put her in a Little S Hackamore (Oh no a hackamore!) She rides with her ears forward, won't toss her head, she's responsive to the lightest touch - she's so much happier.

Cut to a year or two back. I was riding with a friend of mine in the grass near the street, and a fire truck blasted by. She went absolutely up the wall. She was in a completely blind panic. I had to dismount, because it was dangerous to stay on her. Let me ask you - have you ever tried to keep control of a 17 hand, 1600 pound draft cross who is mad with panic and trying to bolt into traffic in just a halter? Because that would have equated to the same thing had I been riding bitless. I wasn't - I was in a snaffle. 

Because of that, I could keep a hold of her reins. She would bolt, feel the pressure of the bit, and circle around me. Yes, I'll be the first to say it - she was responding to the bit because if she went too far, it hurt her mouth and she noticed. But know what? Had I been in just a bitless she would have plowed right through the nose pressure because it doesn't have that bite to pull her out of her panic. So yes, I'm sure her mouth was a bit bruised up. But guess what? She's alive and in my pasture, as opposed to having been killed in the street if I'd been riding bitless.

So, even though she's ridden bitless now, if we ever go out you can bet your boots she's in a bit. They might just save your horse's life. So even as a person who DOES ride bitless, I still am a bit advocate. Like another user said, making huge blanket statements about a HUGE group of riders, saying that they're cruel (and then completely contradicting yourself) is incredibly rude and ignorant. Saying that bits are cruel, and sure your horse might be happier and go better in it but it's still cruel" is just asking for people to get upset. I hope that as you read up more about horses you can get it through that bits are NOT cruel, and bitless can be just as harsh - or worse - than a bit. It's not a thing you can blanket statement - it's completely dependent on the horse, the rider, the bit (or bitless), the situation. Stick a horse in a bit before it is ready and you'll be hard on the hands and hurt the mouth. Stick a horse in a bitless before its ready and you'll be too hard on the hands and hurt the nose.

There's a lot more I want to say and am not sure how to word. Somehow I think it would be fruitless to do so anyways, so I'll stop here.


----------



## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

BlueSpark said:


> Making blanket statements against thousands and thousands of people, who are making decisions based on the wisdom of thousands of years of horsemanship, is kind of ridiculous.


:lol: Actually it's not always ridiculous. Because something has be done for thousands of years doesn't mean it was good. Europeans have feed horses grain for over a thousand years, but it was as bad for them then as it is now. They just didn't every understand how the equine digestive system worked. The "it's been done that way for thousands of years" argument never has held up well in the light of better understanding and education. Using sterile instruments for operations (while eluded to as a required practice in some very ancient text over 1,000 years before Christ) was not practiced by many societies (very notably most of Europe). It only became a commonly understood and accepted practice in most of the world in the past 150 years. Should we just say that the practices of thousands of years were right and it's ridiculous to think that this sterilization stuff is right? How can we dispute the way medicine was practiced for thousands of years of just because more modern studies have proven it wrong?
Same with horses. Most societies in history (notably NOT European) have never nailed shoes on horses or fed their horses grain (indeed most of the great horse societies of history fall into that group). The use of grain and modern shoeing was spread by the colonization of areas by Europeans who brought those practices with them (along with their reasoning for why they are needed). Modern Equine medical studies have shown that thousands of years of these practices are no more valid then a surgeon wiping his knife off on his apron after one operations to clean it before starting the next. :lol:

While I might not be willing to condemn the bit out of hand, the argument that condemning something that's been used for thousands of years isn't right doesn't hold up. There's nothing to say that what's been done for thousands of years isn't wrong. Indeed in the case of equines they've discovered that in many cases what's been done by some groups all that time was indeed not good for the horse.


----------



## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> My bridle mainly attaches to the poll then attaches to the nose bands and then the reins. I used to ride in a bit and in my style of riding she flight it and it was horrible but bitless it is so much better and kinder.


 Sounds like a crossover, dr cook style bitless. lets try this logically for a second. Your crossover style bitless compared to a snaffle bit(correct size and type, on a horse with good teeth).

snaffle:

pressure on both reins, asking for a stop = bit putting pressure on the bars of the mouth, and potentially some on the tongue. the bars and tongue are sensitive structures.

Crossover style Bitless:

same scenario, pressure on both reins = pressure on the nose, under the chin, both cheeks, and the poll. the pole is very sensitive, and not only are the nose and chin sensitive, but also they are bone covered in just a thin layer of skin, not even the protective cushion of gums, like the bars have.

in essence the entire head is being squeezed, vs only pressure in the mouth. To me its pretty logical that the former option would be less confusing. Obviously some horses like having their head squeezed, but mine do not.

please OP, having extensively considered scientific evidence, explain how using a bit on the sensitive bars of the horses mouth is more cruel than using a bitless bridle that squeezes at least THREE sensitive structures simultaneously? I'm sincerely interested in the answer.

also, regarding the bone under the gum covered bars of a horses mouth being sharp enough to cut flesh, have you had the chance to examine an equine skull in person? I have, and did not draw the same conclusion. more over, I find the bone under the chin LESS protected than the bars of the mouth. Curious. 

I believe in people being informed about their decisions. I do not discard the usefulness of a cross over style bitless just because my experience and logic up to this point tells me they are not the ideal tools of communication, nor the kindest form. Obviously they must work well for some people, and in some circumstances, so I wont rule them out entirely.


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

I could write easily hold a strong horse no matter what the size and situation ina head collar. Only if I had worked with it before that day. So I wouldn't be able to do what you did that day in a hamlet having never met her before but if I'd worked with her for a few weeks or months I certainly could. My horse was in a blind panic the other day because she slipped down into a poodle and I hadn't get done the girth up so it feel around her belly. She went to gallop of and in a halter I kept her calm enough to undo the saddle and let it drop. Though she's not as big as yours if your horse was scared enough she'd have ran through a bit or a halter. That makes no difference just that with the bit it'll have hurt. If you let go of a halter, because you thought you couldn't hold on due to being a halter that your thought that could've hurry the animal. The bit did not save her life.


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

Also, the nose bands is loose and puts pressure on just the poll and front of the nose. I have had the chance to examine a horse skull and looked at the jaw, and did come to that conclusion. The mouth is the most sensitive part of a horse containing the most nerve endings in their mouth than any other part of the body has in one place. The poll isn't anywhere near as sensitive as the mouth.


----------



## Shoebox (Apr 18, 2012)

madyasmkey said:


> I could write easily hold a strong horse no matter what the size and situation ina head collar. Only if I had worked with it before that day. So I wouldn't be able to do what you did that day in a hamlet having never met her before but if I'd worked with her for a few weeks or months I certainly could. My horse was in a blind panic the other day because she slipped down into a poodle and I hadn't get done the girth up so it feel around her belly. She went to gallop of and in a halter I kept her calm enough to undo the saddle and let it drop. Though she's not as big as yours if your horse was scared enough she'd have ran through a bit or a halter. That makes no difference just that with the bit it'll have hurt. If you let go of a halter, because you thought you couldn't hold on due to being a halter that your thought that could've hurry the animal. The bit did not save her life.


I don't believe you for a second. "If she was scared enough she will run through bit or halter" - please. She HAS pulled right through a halter and dragged me for much less than what was happening that day, totally disregarding the 140 pounds hauling back on her knotted rope halter. It's a wonder she didn't trample me in the street that day. This post tells me you truly do not have the experience to be touting bitless vs. bitted. You did not see her that day, you CAN'T tell me she "if she was scared enough." I have never seen a horse act quite like that before (not in person, anyways), and I haven't seen it since.


Have you seen this video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-srzT2olJ2Q

I don't care HOW MANY times you worked with that horse. If it went into a panic and decided it was leaving you could not hold onto it in just a halter. In a bit you might be able to break that panic - while any horse will plow through a halter, few will plow through a rein clipped to a side of the bit. There is a difference between a spooking/bolting horse and a flat out panicked horse and I do not think you have experienced the latter.

I'll take my leave of this post. I won't argue with ignorance.


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

That horse had a harness in the video. If you turn a horses had they can't run. That is where training comes in and pressure release.


----------



## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> Because something has be done for thousands of years doesn't mean it was good


 Obviously. It would be ridiculous to assume I meant ALL things done for thousands of years, and I'm not sure why you would assume that. 



> Most societies in history (notably NOT European) have never nailed shoes on horses or fed their horses grain


 ah, but which did not use bits? Just curious. European's did. Mongolians did. Chinese did. Native Americans used rope through the horses mouth, Assyrian, Egyptian, Persian, Greek, Roman, Iranian, all metal bits.

What makes more sense, that bits came about as an effective method of communication between horse and rider, more effective than the easier to make and cheaper to produce bitless bridle, or that they have simply been used for thousands of years as a cruel and ineffective way to control horses out of nothing but a misguided sense of tradition?


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

Bits weren't the first things to be used for control. Metal was difficult so it would've been rope around the nose for a considerable amount of time before the bit came in.


----------



## Shoebox (Apr 18, 2012)

madyasmkey said:


> That horse had a harness in the video.* If you turn a horses had they can't run.* That is where training comes in and pressure release.


This, too, spells it out for me. That's an ideal world, but if you've been around the forum long enough you'll find that there are indeed horses who will run regardless of whether or not their heads are turned. Some horses can and will run, they're too panicked to stop. 

I know I said I was done. I am for real this time.


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

Okay. God bye. They may try to run but they'll struggle and give up


----------



## autumn rain (Sep 7, 2012)

Zexious, I must say, I agree with your point of view. Ride your horse in whatever works for you and don't judge what someone else is doing. The preaching works both ways, too, IMO. I like to ride bitless and it works well for what I like to do with my mares, but there are those who feel it is their duty to enlighten me as to what is safe, even when I haven't asked for help or for an opinion. I let it roll off my back, but, really, as long as no one and no horse is being harmed, live and let live, I say.


----------



## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> Okay. God bye. They may try to run but they'll struggle and give up


 I'm afraid your posts are betraying your lack of knowledge and experience. You obviously have no idea what your saying. I have been dragged, water ski style, in a straight line, by several horses that were either obnoxious or in a blind panic, with their heads turned. In fact, I have been on a draft cross mare, with her head turned completely to the side, while she galloped out of control in a straight line, nearly killing us both.


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

Unless a horse has been taught not to pull they will pull


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_if your horse was scared enough she'd have ran through a bit or a halter. That makes no difference just that with the bit it'll have hurt_"

Nope. My horse (the one fighting her bit in my avatar) got scared a lot - diarrhea squirting scared. Stop in a rope halter? Not a chance. Stop in a snaffle? Maybe, but I had to fight her for a minute or two, and was very harsh on her face & mouth doing it. Stop in a curb? Yep. Last spring, she dragged her rear leg against a type of cholla cactus - not a "Teddy Bear" Cholla, but a staghorn, which is good because the staghorn has fewer spines. However, with over 100 cactus spines in her rear leg, did she start to bolt? Yep. And 3 bumps of the curb bit later, and about 10 feet of forward motion, she stopped.

Did it hurt her mouth? I doubt it, because I dismounted, spent some time with my pliers pulling the spines out of her leg, and then rode her for another 90 minutes without her fussing in the least.

People did not invent bits because bits are worthless. They have used them because they work, and work well.

"_Because something has be done for thousands of years doesn't mean it was good_"

But something that has worked well for thousands of years should not be lightly tossed aside - particularly since the vast majority of horses are still doing it successfully, and at all levels of competition, work and trail riding.

"_you'll find that there are indeed horses who will run regardless of whether or not their heads are turned_"

Yep! Decades before I started riding regularly, I had a chance to ride a horse on a ranch. He was supposed to be a reliable horse for a beginner, and he was on every ride except one. On one he bolted and galloped. I pulled his head around until his nose was at my knee, and he did not slow down. I remember an old cowboy telling me that you could sometimes turn a horse by kicking on the shoulder you wanted them to move away from, so I held on to the horn and kicked hard on his right shoulder. He turned left, did about 1/4 mile along a barbed wire fence, then slowly turned a big circle and finally slowed down. 

I don't know how long he galloped with his nose at my knee, but it was more than far enough to have run us into a barbed wire fence if he had not turned from my kicking his shoulder!

None of this means that ALL horses must use bits. Some do fine bitless. It wouldn't bother me to ride Trooper in a sidepull on the trail. We use a bit with him because TROOPER acts more relaxed when he has a bit in his mouth. With Mia, it is because a bit gives more control - although she has calmed down enough that I may move her into a snaffle.

Pick the tool that matches your horse and your needs. That tool will not be the same for every rider. And with some horses, the right tool may change over time. Listen to the horse, not YouTube. :wink:


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"The power of the gods, says Pindar, does easily what would be sworn impossible. So, thanks to the prodigious bit, Bellerophon immediately subdued the fiery flying horse. As soon as he put the bit in his mouth, he could jump on his back, wearing his bronze weapons, and they immediately performed a warrior dance. Then, on his back, the hero defeated the Amazons, killed the Chimera and routed the Solimi."

The bit that tamed the flying horse: Pegasus and Bellerophon

But then, if the bit looked like this, one doesn't wonder...










Corinthian bit | The Works of Chivalry

A mullen mouth from 800 BC?










Bronze Age bits | The Works of Chivalry

There is another article on bitless riding in the ancient world here:

Bitless equitation in ancient times | The Works of Chivalry


----------



## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

madyasmkey said:


> My view is that horses shouldn't have metal is their moths and unless they have been made numb to the head collar, all horses are better off without a bit. I say this having ridden my horse for almost 2 years struggling for an outline and as soon as we go bitless she works much happier and easiest.


You are basing your entire opinion of bits off of only one horse?

Interesting. 



madyasmkey said:


> Of cause there are exceptions for everything I say


Wait. But you just said that ALL horses are better off without a bit?



madyasmkey said:


> I myself have done all these things with my horse before looking into it, watching youtube videos and learning a lot about it.


Would you trust getting into an airplane with a pilot who learned to fly from watching Youtbue videos and "learning a lot about it"?

I wouldn't. 



madyasmkey said:


> I think anyone who labels themselves a horseman or woman shouldn't rely on pain and bits to control their horses.


Ah. I get your point. So you are better than me?

I see that my 2-year-old colt was just writhing in pain from the abuse of a snaffle bit, bit guards, a cinch around his belly, and a 130-pound gorilla strapped on his back. How cruel of me to strap a heavy barre racing saddle on his back and force him to do everything I ask. And how cruel I keep him in fences! That must be so painful that he can't run free like horses were designed too. I am such an abusive person.













madyasmkey said:


> Bits are cruel.


Saddles are cruel. 

Horse trailers are cruel. 

Fences are cruel. 




madyasmkey said:


> Just think though, what if you fall of on a hack or a trail and your horse bolts. When they stop they'll probably eat some grass, the reins slip and they stand on it, Lucy their head and instead of taking their time to think and take the pressure off by moving their for, they panic and pull against it more. Those situations are when horses get badly hurt.


That bitless bridle you are wearing on the trail will tear into their head just as much as any bit will.



madyasmkey said:


> And I don't know whether Western competitions allow bitless


What? You didn't watch a YouTube video and "learn a lot about it" to find out?

(Western competitions DO require a bit to compete, different bits are allowed based on the horse's age, and some bits are illegal. Maybe you should do your homework next time.)



madyasmkey said:


> I hadn't really looked up on the straight bar but just from looking at it I'd say it's the kindest, but I don't know much about that.


?? So you are giving your opinion about a subject that you really DON'T know that much about? 

Interesting. 




madyasmkey said:


> Again, all horses are different and given the chance I still think MOST would work much happier without a chunk of metal in their moths.


Now you are changing your mind? You said above that "*all* horses are better off without a bit." Now you are saying "most".

Your argument is falling apart on its own. 



madyasmkey said:


> Also, most horses I have known to finish their career in showjumping, *barrel racing *and other fast working competitions have permanently bruised mouths.


Ah! Now THIS statement I like. 

Take a look at one of my permanently-bruised-mouth horses that I am so cruel to and inflict pain upon. 













madyasmkey said:


> I didn't say all bits are cruel I said it's the handler and bits are their tools.


Yes you did. 

Please refer to what I quoted above. You specifically said "_Bits are cruel_." And again you are now changing your story. 

Once again, your argument is falling apart on its own. You say one thing, and then you come back and change your mind on what you said. 



madyasmkey said:


> Again people are just reading the part they don't like.


No, not really. I'm reading what you wrote, word for word. 



madyasmkey said:


> Bits can work well if you don't use the reins as much as say people in dressage do.


I'm highly doubting that you even know much about dressage (Maybe you should YouTube it?) since you clearly don't even have a full understanding of the bits you hate so much.



madyasmkey said:


> However if you can get the same out of a bitless bridle then why put a hunk of metal in their mouths.


The issue is that you *can't* get the same from a bitless bridle. 

I have nothing against bitless bridles but if you are doing high level competition with your horse with advanced maneuvars, you do not have the REFINEMENT and FINESSE in a bitless bridle that you can achieve in a proper bit.



madyasmkey said:


> I don't put shoes on my horse because they are again something that causes unessisary problems in horses.


Wow. You're smart. 

So please, do tell me then, how my LAME horse was 100% corrected with a 2 degree shoe and a 2 degree pad, slightly displaced to the outside, on his front feet?

Boy, those front shoes sure cause an unneccessary SOUND and COMFORTABLE horse for me. 





madyasmkey said:


> If you are willing to put the time in to train a horse to ride in a bit so responsively why not spend that time on not putting a bit in their mouths.


Why don't you do what you want, and I'll do what I want?


----------



## EquineObsessed (May 24, 2013)

I was working on the same post, beau159! Like I stated previously in the thread, humility and a willingness to listen to the people on this forum will get you a long ways.


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

I don't care if I went back on somethings I've said because some people have persuaded me otherwise in some cases. Again, shoes can fix somethings but they shouldn't always be seen as a permanent thing. Shoes are often the route of many problems. A 2 year old shouldnt be backed though. Horses legs and back dont develop until 4-5 years old and a heavy western saddle probably doesnt doas much damage as an english one would, but still does damage.


----------



## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

Oh boy..... I'm a bad person. I've gotta put my 2cents in...... 

As for the shoeing, I know a horse that has awful feet. Terrible. If he DOESN'T have shoes on he goes lame and his feet literally start to rot and fall off. Shoes keep him healthy, happy and sound and he always has them on. No amount of 'natural trimming' nor anything else has helped this. I like my horses barefoot, but I will use shoes periodically to correct a problem. My gelding's pigeon toed, we kept him shod for about 6 months to help him regain his balance at the canter and hopefully straighten some bone out. Now he's barefoot and better for having shoes on to correct the problem. 

As for the bits. I'm a pre-vet student, I look at numerous xrays, mri's and other various diagnostics of a horses mouth almost every day. About 90% of the 'bit related' injuries I've seen are due to RIDER ERROR (btw I've seen worse injuries from bit-less bridles used wrong than I have from bits). I ride my mare in a Tom Thumb, she goes along just fine and can be ridden just as easily in that as in a halter or tied string around her neck. Why do I use a bit then? Because let's say she spooks, or gets tense and needs clear rider communication instantly, everyone needs a bit to convey that. In an ideal world we wouldn't but the fact of the matter is that we do. the amount of force a bit puts on the mouth gives clear signalling if used right. I know how to ride a TT, I can ride a curb and snaffle. 

On the other hand, if bits were so evil than why does my gelding love his? He opens his mouth and takes the bit himself, with no push or prodding from me. If he doesn't have that contact he goes nuts. (And yes, I ride with contact.) 

Contact and framing up a horse are also a 'use it right and don't get problems'. If you're asking a horse for more contact than he can give at that time then yeah, you're going to have major problems down the line in both physiology and health. As for backing a two year old, depends on the two year old. If done right there is no damage, if done wrong you will ruin the horse. I have no problem backing a two year old so long as the horse is mentally ready and you do not go past their physical limitations. (Btw, my horses were both started at two and have excellent bone and health; also the barn where I work at has never had a two year old lamed up just because it was backed and they're all started western.) 

Now I'm not condemning bitless. I've used it on other horses and I'll continue to use it and bits. But don't buy into everything online I can post links to a bunch of falsified scientific reports to prove a point, and don't be so judgmental of people who use a different method. (Oh! And there will always be someone better than you out there in the world who can ride even you're 'special' horse. My mare has very specific cues and is a 'one rider' horse; I wouldn't hesitate to put someone who knows their stuff on her because a good rider can work WITH the horse. My geldings the same.


----------



## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

^ xD!!

OP, though this may not have been your intention, you're just making people judge your opinions and your experience(s).

Pushing your methods on other people (many of whom have been riding longer than you have been alive) and claiming it is not only the best way, but the only way, isn't going to make many friends.

Like I said in my other post, you're more than welcome to have your tactics. If your horse goes well in a bitless bridle, cool. Go for it. If I someday purchase a horse that goes well in a bitless bridle, I'll keep it that way. For now, my horse is happiest with his bit. Enough said.
More than that, you shouldn't preach about things that you don't know. Because then you just come across as foolish.


----------



## AnrewPL (Jun 3, 2012)

bsms said:


> Not really. The idea is that a horse's mouth invariably experiences pain because "_Horses are not designed to have anything but food and water in their mouth_".
> 
> While horses were not 'designed' to have bits, bits are designed to work in their mouth - just like a retainer fits a human mouth. In the case of my Jr Cow Horse Dogbone, the metal is shaped to fit the horse's mouth. It is made of sweet iron to encourage salvation, and the dogbone has a copper roller for my horse to play with:
> 
> ...


 Hahaha, yep, these people love to forget that the horses we have now are the result of literally thousands of years of selective breeding for physical and behavioural traits that suit them to being ridden or pulling wagons, ploughs and a host of other things.


----------



## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

madyasmkey said:


> I don't care if I went back on somethings I've said because some people have persuaded me otherwise in some cases.


But you've been very adamant about people "putting words into your mouth" or saying "I didn't say that" when in fact you did. (Like I pointed out above.) Nothing wrong with changing your mind, but then don't completely ignore what you _did_ say prior and pretend you didn't say it.




madyasmkey said:


> Again, shoes can fix somethings but they shouldn't always be seen as a permanent thing. Shoes are often the route of many problems.


Only in the hands of an incompetent farrier. 

Just like a bit can be the route of many problems when used incompetently. 

Just like a car accident when the person was incompetently texting while driving instead of paying attention to the road. 

My horse Red will most likely need shoes on his front feet permanently. He is pigeon-toed which is likely the cause of his foot landing/loading unequally and causing mild stress to the heel. You can't trim a horse's foot to change the fact that he's pigeon-toed, or you'll screw something else up higher in the leg. But you can alter the shoes beneath his feet and help him land/load better to move evenly distribute the stress and keep him sound. 

Again, you need to do your homework before you continue to make false statements. A shoe job that is done correctly will not hurt the horse or the hoof. I've seen barefoot trims cause problems in horses too if the farrier is incompetent. 




madyasmkey said:


> A 2 year old shouldnt be backed though.


That is _your opinion_. 

And please provide your RESEARCH where lightly riding (a walk or trot on 15 occasions) a 2-year-old does physical damage to his back, since you claim that it does.


----------



## AnrewPL (Jun 3, 2012)

madyasmkey said:


> That horse had a harness in the video. If you turn a horses had they can't run. That is where training comes in and pressure release.


 Is that so? So how many horses have you trained? And I don’t mean gotten a nice horsey and “trained it” after it was bought for you. I mean gotten from a never been touched before horse and taken it right through to being a good solid work horse. 
I have seen more horse than I care to remember bolting with their head puled round to the rider’s knee. You really should hold off making authoritive statements about stuff until you actually know what you are talking about.


----------



## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

I just want to go back a second. Let's talk about this whole "the bit sitting there makes the mouth go numb" ideal.

First of all, there is far more pressure on the horse's back from the rider, why isn't the back numb?

Secondly, there is far more pressure on the poll from any bridle, including a bitless, when compared to a bit that is sitting inactive in a horse's mouth. Why don't they get numb polls?


----------



## CowboyBob (Feb 11, 2013)

SlideStop said:


> And any device is only as cruel as you make it.... It doesn't matter what it is... There's always going to be a donkeys rear out there abusing it!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I read your post and SlideStop's response and Just to save time, SlideStop said what I was thinking. I didn't read the rest of the post SlideStop said it all.


----------



## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

I ride my mare in a 'Gentle' Dr cook bridle. She starts fussing, and won't keep her head down. I stopped riding in this because of the DENT i put in her nose. The hair is growing in white and after a ride her face gets tender. Her bit does not do that. she responds to the bit and is relaxed. She is willing to work, and KEEP her head in 1 place, no constant up and down. I school bitless to teach her about contact, well she HATES it bitless, but will try to respond with a bit. So yes, my poor abused horsie rides better in a bit, she must be bruised from all the bit yanking i don't do. (I ride with a LOSE rein, I have to ride with more face pulling in a bitless.)

So lets summarize again. Sidepull, will listen ut will smack you in the head with her ears, and you have to embed it in her nose to stop. Dr. Cook, same as sidepull but it takes longer to stop and more face pulling. After a bitless ride i can't touch her face for 20 min. Its not worth it to me.

In a snaffle, eh she will listen but not always. In a tom thumb, she rides with a level head set and stretches down. She will drop her head nicely into a stop and she stops lighter and quicker. Hmmmm yes, the bit is the one causing her pain....


Op in a perfect world, EVERYONE would ride bridleless, bareback, and their horses would not have shoes. I would also be the queen of said utopia and we would all ride to the mandatory coom-bi-ya chant every evening -_-'


----------



## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

As for your shoes are bad comment. let me show you what 6 years of no shoes did for my mare

She ended up chipping it so my farrior had to lif the side of the hoof off the ground to prevent further damage.











This was her when i first got her. Wow just look at those beautiful bare feet.









This is her with shoes. And The crack is more closed now, she is more sound and smoother with shoes. Also i don't have her causing her FEET TO BLEED issue!. My farrior was LEAVING the dead sole and leaving her a little long to help her feet but she ground down her heels and her hoof so he could never really trim, more just take toe.










Wow look at all the problems the shoes are causing her.


----------



## MangoRoX87 (Oct 19, 2009)

Just saying, my mare was started at 2, ridden hard all her life (heading horse, barrels, reining, drill team), and is still extremely active at 23.
Sure, you shouldn't be getting on a 2 year old and riding 6 miles everyday, but light rides won't hurt them. I'd rather put a foundation on a horse when they are not fully mature, then fight with a 6 year old. I start throwing saddles on my babies at like 1, then by the time they are 2-2 and a half they are 100% okay with it an are ready to move on.

This thread isn't about 2 year olds or saddles or what have you. It's about bits and such.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

AnrewPL said:


> Is that so? So how many horses have you trained? And I don’t mean gotten a nice horsey and “trained it” after it was bought for you. I mean gotten from a never been touched before horse and taken it right through to being a good solid work horse.
> I have seen more horse than I care to remember bolting with their head puled round to the rider’s knee. You really should hold off making authoritive statements about stuff until you actually know what you are talking about.



My horse, her sister, biscuit, bugsy, peanut, chance, Boo, Indie, Echo, Santy, Dee I have worked with plenty of wild horses in big 14 acre fields and not once benn dragged. One was a 18hh stallion.


----------



## speedy da fish (May 7, 2009)

"There are many types of bits, for many different disciplines, but the severity of ALL bits, lies in the hand of who's holding them." 
-Monty Roberts

Just my 2p and I love this quote because it is so true. Riding well in a pelham causes far less damage than riding with a harsh hand with a hackamore or any other bitless bridle.

It also depends on the horse. I ride my personal horse in a hackamore, he is much softer when he doesn't have anything in his mouth, that's just the way he is.

On the opposite end of the scale- I used to ride a school horse with a snaffle, the yard manager was insistent that everything was ridden in a snaffle, that was her personal view in bits. He had sores around his mouth because he pulled so much. When the yard manager retired the new manager put him in a pelham and he improved greatly. His sores cleared up and he was much happier to be ridden.


----------



## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

I have ridden horses with snaffles, bitless and even cutting horses with big curb bits. I like the cutters because they are SOOO light. Try to ride in a bitless and they will not be as light and refined. Just because you can train a horse to let you ride it without a bit does not make them refined. And any horse who is not used to a bit will be a little wanky in the beginning, just like a horse who is not used to a saddle will be a little wanky.


----------



## AnrewPL (Jun 3, 2012)

madyasmkey said:


> My horse, her sister, biscuit, bugsy, peanut, chance, Boo, Indie, Echo, Santy, Dee I have worked with plenty of wild horses in big 14 acre fields and not once benn dragged. One was a 18hh stallion.


 So you started every one of those horse from scratch did you? I’m not talking about how many horses have you played with; I mean how many horses have you broken in and taken through to being solid working horses?


----------



## HollyBubbles (Jun 22, 2009)

Anything is cruel in the wrong hands.. Bitless bridles have been banned at certain shows around here... Why? Because a rider broke his horses nose with one, that was a horrific sight I'll tell you that much for free.

So because of that, at shows now we are required to ride in a bit, do I mind? No.. My gelding is extremely opinionated with everything in life, if it was hurting or he didn't like it, he would make sure I understood. This is a horse who will not move undersaddle if he doesn't like the saddle, nothing the rider can do will make him move, and if he is forced to move by other means, he will go rodeo till the rider is gone. Easy as that, he doesn't like something or it hurts, he says so, not hard to understand him.

My mare, I wouldn't dare ride her bitless, she has an issue with poll pressure, so to ride her in a bitless bridle that uses poll pressure is cruel for her. She's happy as larry in a snaffle.

And I don't tie my horses mouths shut either, they don't open them or flip their tongues over the bit in the first place 

I shall grab my popcorn now :3


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

AnrewPL said:


> So you started every one of those horse from scratch did you? I’m not talking about how many horses have you played with; I mean how many horses have you broken in and taken through to being solid working horses?


Yes. I did. All came from homes that never handled them and lived in fields with other horses no contact. The only who hasn't been fully backed is Boo because I didn't get chance to finish before he was sold.


----------



## AnrewPL (Jun 3, 2012)

madyasmkey said:


> Yes. I did. All came from homes that never handled them and lived in fields with other horses no contact. The only who hasn't been fully backed is Boo because I didn't get chance to finish before he was sold.


 I doubt it. 
The nonsense you are waffling on about it a text book regurgitation of the same nonsense I have heard a host of people who exaggerate their prowess and have never really trained a horse, and have an infantile understanding of horse training, waffle on about before. You think you can get a horse going in a halter as good as people can get one going in a bit? My estimate is that you have done little more than trail ride the odd bit of jumping or barrel racing for fun and have never had to get a horse working at a really high standard with something like cattle work. I highly doubt you could get a horse to stop on its back feet from a gallop and throw itself about with its front legs over a back foot after a cow. Additionally your remark about a horse not being able to run with its head turned, that alone tells me you have probably heard someone say something similar and are simply restating it without the experience to know that a horse sure as hell can bolt with its head turned round to the rider’s leg.
You go on about how bits are cruel, pretty standard for someone who doesn’t understand the basic principles of many bits, not knowing that some bits are so soft on a horse that, ideally, it never so much as touches the bars of the horse’s mouth and simply works of the balance of the bit and reins felt by the horse through its tongue and lips, not direct pressure, and I have no doubt that you wouldn’t have a clue that in order to train a horse to that level of finesse and precision it requires years of bittless riding (now, a question for you, if you can train a horse to that level without a bit, which is indeed what people do, why would they put a bit in its mouth if you can train a horse to that level in a halter?) And I doubt you understand the basic principles of most bittless options. I highly doubt that you even realise that the really refined bittless options, just like the really refined bits, operate without contact, preferably at all, much less constantly, as you insinuate all bits require. 
You clearly stated in a number of posts that you think bits are cruel with no qualification to the statement and then later deny that you made such a statement when it is there in black and white for all to see; you will have to forgive me if I think your honesty is somewhat suspect.
You raise points like people falling off and jerking the reins? That’s rider error, not bit cruelty, about horses stepping on the reins? That’s rider incompetence, not bit cruelty. You even go on about shoes on horses causing problems, I have worked in places where if horse didn’t have shoes they wouldn’t have feet, try riding a horse over basalt country working cattle for weeks without shoes and see how their feet hold up. And yes I can shoe my own horses and know the basics of horse shoeing. Do they all need shoes? No, but shoes aren’t cruel and have their place.
In another of your posts you go on about your horse panicking and you not havening girthed it up properly. Really? That suggests to me that you are either exaggerating the panic or had some pretty incompetent stuff going on if you couldn’t even put on a saddle properly.
Bluespark said it, your posts are betraying your inexperience, it’s a pretty common phenomenon, called the Dunning-Kruger Effect I believe. Basically, as people learn they learn a little, get some good results, and figure they have it all figured out and can share their expertise with everyone. What they don’t realise is is just how one dimensional their “expertise” is, and how, though it may sound impressive to people with less knowledge than them, to those with more, every word just reiterates the person’s naivety. 
Now before you think I’m being overly harsh here, I’ll admit that I used to subscribe to the bits are cruel rubbish. And I probably thought I was pretty ****ed good too, and was happy to tell people about how bad bits were. I got results with horses I trained that made the average around me look pretty pathetic, and I thought I was the poo; needless to say I wasn’t, but thankfully I had enough sense to learn a little humility and someone to learn from. And I learned just how much precision one can get with certain types of bits with the right kind of training. This lead to the realisation that it’s not bits that are bad, though some are just designed to be outright nasty, but more often than not it’s the hands on the reins that hurts the horse’s mouth, not the bit. I now train horse for my uncle, who breeds them, though doing a PhD has gotten in the way so it’s been a while since I have handled a horse. But when I train them, my own horse I train with a spade bit in mind, others with a snaffle bit in mind. All of them, unless I get a feeling off the horse that it won’t take to it, I train in a series of hackamores, real hackamores, not these mechanical things, so I am well at home with the bittless training idea, but I’m happy to accept when I come across a horse that I judge won’t do well in a hackamore and work it in a snaffle bit. See that’s the biggest tell tale sign for me that you don’t know what you are talking about. That you assert that every horse can be trained in a halter. I have trained a lot, not as many as others, there’s a few on this forum who have trained more horses than I have had hot meals, but I have trained my share, and I have learned to tell pretty fast, probably within a week, weather a horse will go in a hackamore or need a bit.
The world isn’t as black and white as you have presented it, horses and bits certainly aren’t; hell, be willing to learn, and you should be willing to admit to what you have said when it’s there in black and white for all to read, like “bits are cruel”. So, no, I doubt you have started a horse and taken it all the way through its training, if you had you would realise how much you have said here is just outright wrong.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

In country like this, my horses are shoeless only because they don't spend much time on these trails:








​ 
With biotin supplements, Mia can handle this shoeless about 3 times/week. More than that would cause her feet to wear away into nothingness. Trooper, the Appy, can't handle 3/week rides in the desert. He is only shoeless because it is my daughter who rides him, and she rides him no more than 2 times/week on average. More than that, and he would need shoes to keep him from going lame.


----------



## EquineObsessed (May 24, 2013)

I think it's good that you're here and want to learn, but I would advise to stop making generalizations based on well, myths and ignorance. Instead of posting all of these threads on how you disagree with join up, bits, shoes and then post for advice about a training website, you should browse through the training forum, and read some threads, and learning some things before making broad statement that flat out don't apply to all horses, or even most horses. If you did indeed train the horses you've listed, that's still less than twenty- not enough to make theories about the entire horse population. 
I was once told that if I could list all of the horses I've ridden/trained, that I hadn't ridden enough.


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

They aren't every single horse I've trained, just the ones that came to mind. And I have trained those horse through each step bringing them into work from being wild. I did say that shoes can help, they can cause problems too. Joining up was my view and so are bits. I did say bits are cruel but I didnt say the rider fslling off and pulling the reins, I said if the horse gallops off and stands on it, the bit would cause more problems than her head collar because she has the head collar asking her to do things every time she doesn't listen to my body language whereas a bit would hurt and may cause them to panic. As I have said, I wouldn't out right say im not going to ride a horse becaude they have a bit because some need them. My point was if all horses could be ridden without a bit, then horses would have a lot less problems with bad riders but they'd be better if people had to pass some kind of course to prove that they can look after them before they are allowed to buy them. Neither are going to happen. 

And her panicking was my fault for not doing the girth up enough when the ground she had stood on gave up and she stumbled a little, if I had left her rope around her neck like I normally do, she'd have been gone. I was luck I didn't because I didnt notice until she tried to pull away (I was unlocking a gate that's why I didn't see it happen)


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Based on your other posts, I'm skeptical.

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-trainers/getting-into-horse-training-england-354442/

http://www.horseforum.com/natural-horsemanship/my-opinion-joining-up-353506/

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-videos/take-look-353162/

The last links to your YouTube channel.


----------



## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

bsms said:


> Based on your other posts, I'm skeptical.
> 
> http://www.horseforum.com/horse-trainers/getting-into-horse-training-england-354442/
> 
> ...


Glad you pointed these out. I was going to but i didn't want to open that can of worms. On her website pretty much EVERY photo is of a horse riding in a bit with a FLASH NOSEBAND. hmmmmmm.... Makes you wonder.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

So? My youtube channel is a bit of fun. More recently I have been expressing my opinions on things and just me playing with my horse.


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

Again, this is because my time riding in a bit had been longer that without. I do admit Ginny would probably not be anywhere near as good as she is now.


----------



## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

SlideStop said:


> Glad you pointed these out. I was going to but i didn't want to open that can of worms. On her website pretty much EVERY photo is of a horse riding in a bit with a FLASH NOSEBAND. hmmmmmm.... Makes you wonder.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I didn't want to open the can of worms either, but I especially like the _hanging on the reins_ in this profile picture on YouTube.


----------



## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

beau159 said:


> I didn't want to open the can of worms either, but I especially like the _hanging on the reins_ in this profile picture on YouTube.


Bit, bridle, halter.... Whatever. Your going to hurt your horse like this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

Thanks. That was my first cross country and I didn't keep my leg on enough so she went to stop then jumped massively. I made a mistake, so what?


----------



## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

^So you shouldn't claim to be all knowing, and that your way is the best regardless, when you make just as many mistakes as everyone else.


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

I never said I was the best. I never said people don't make mistakes. This post wasn't about attacking people but because I don't agree with what everyone else thinks it's become that.


----------



## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

madyasmkey said:


> Thanks. That was my first cross country and I didn't keep my leg on enough so she went to stop then jumped massively. I made a mistake, so what?


It's ok to make mistakes, but if your going to parade around acting like you know everything and saying your a horse trainer photos like these might be better off left in your personal files....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

I don't say I know best. I like this picture and got nearly 200 likes because of her scope. This picture was about how gid my horse is at jumping not how **** I was on my first ever cross country session over the first fence


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

madyasmkey said:


> So? My youtube channel is a bit of fun. More recently I have been expressing my opinions on things and just me playing with my horse.


I think it is relevant because if I used a bit the way you are in your videos, my mare would probably throw me. It reveals the mental picture you have in mind when you think about riding with a bit, which is very different from the mental picture in MY mind when I think about riding with a bit.

My mental picture is based off of my own approach to riding, so when I think of bits, I think this (for better or worse). Snaffle:








​
Or even this, to use a picture taken when Mia was thinking about spinning and running from a huge moving van ahead of her (she held her ground, BTW, and eventually walked past...well, sideways trotted past the moving van). Curb:








​
That is very different from what I think you are picturing when someone talks about riding with a bit. When I think of bits, I think of using my pinkie for situations that are not dangerous. That may give me a different perspective on the value and harm of bits than what you have.


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

See and in England, all riding is on the bit and anything that happens you are taught to correct by asking for an outline (I don't do that though) . I probably should have made it more clear my thoughts aren't on Western riding because I know most Western riders are very good, more english because it's constantly on the bit and it's all about looking pretty. Also the reason I stopped biting was because my instructor wanted me to seesaw her mouth to get her off the forehand. I hated it. And it didn't even work for more than 3 strides.


----------



## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

madyasmkey said:


> I don't say I know best. I like this picture and got nearly 200 likes because of her scope. This picture was about how gid my horse is at jumping not how **** I was on my first ever cross country session over the first fence


This is why people (including myself) are having an _"issue" _with your posts, not just on this thread, but on other threads you have started:



> I'm just going to ignore comments saying I'm wrong though.





> I will go as far as to say bits are cruel for horses because they are.





> I think joining up is sort of a useless thing to do.





> I think anyone who labels themselves a horseman or woman shouldn't rely on pain and bits to control their horses.





> Bits are cruel.





> Hackamores are an exception for bitless riding because they are horrible


And I'm just going to stop there because my copy/paste button is getting tired. 

*Do you see how you are coming across?*

You are portraying a know-it-all "high and mighty" attitude in the way that you word your statements, without the experience and knowledge to back up your claims. You'll do much better on here if you cut yourself back a few notches and learn to be more open-minded to other opinions and methods. There's an entire world of horses out there that you don't have any idea about.


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

I take back my 2nd and 3rd comment because I was wrong. Joining up was just my opinion that I put in probably the worst way I could have and from what I know of Hackamores, they aren't nice at all but that is mainly from stories only a couple of times I have seen Hackamores being used in person and had horrible results.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

People with good hands can get very good results riding with contact. People with marginal to poor hands, no matter how light, can screw up a horse using constant contact. I gave up contact because of my hands, not because I think it is bad for horses.


----------



## Sahara (Jul 23, 2010)

madyasmkey said:


> my instructor wanted me to seesaw her mouth to get her off the forehand.


Seesawing doesn't get a horse off the forehand. All that does is get the head lowered and behind the vertical. Get a new instructor. Learn a few things by trial and error and then come back in about 20 years and tell us what you 'know'.


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

The thing is, she works in a more natural outline, long and low rather than up and tight like I used to and she moved a lot more freely. I ride the same from using a bit too bitless, but now I have a more consistent contact and she moves consistently, I have been able to work on my position and my riding has improved immensely.


----------



## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

madyasmkey said:


> I take back my 2nd and 3rd comment because I was wrong. Joining up was just my opinion that I put in probably the worst way I could have and from what I know of Hackamores, they aren't nice at all but that is mainly from stories only a couple of times I have seen Hackamores being used in person and had horrible results.


And that's what we are trying to get across --> You have _very_ limited experience. 

You can't come on here and say all hackamores are horrible "just because ". There are many people on these boards who only ride in a hackamore. When you come and say all hackamores are horrible, you are saying that they are a horrible rider/person for using them. This is why your posts haven't exactly been met with open arms. You are basing your opinions off of very limited experience and not even fully knowing how a hackmore works. And you are using very large generalizations.

Try thinking about other people for a change. Think about how their riding may be different from yours. 

Just because it is different, doesn't mean it is wrong. 




madyasmkey said:


> See and in England, all riding is on the bit and anything that happens you are taught to correct by asking for an outline (I don't do that though) . I probably should have made it more clear my thoughts aren't on Western riding because I know most Western riders are very good, more english because it's constantly on the bit and it's all about looking pretty. Also the reason I stopped biting was because my instructor wanted me to seesaw her mouth to get her off the forehand. I hated it. And it didn't even work for more than 3 strides.


See? Again, you are being judgemental of ALL people who ride with contact on the reins because you have ONE bad incident. (And from the sounds of it, you were asking for contact incorrectly.) How about you have an open mind and maybe go take lessons again from a different instructor, so you can learn to ride with contact on the bit properly?

When it is done *correctly*, riding with contact can be a beautiful thing to see and enjoy.


----------



## ropinbiker (Aug 3, 2012)

OP, I will say this, it does seem that you are learning here and starting to "accept" others opinions and advice -- not, of course, that all of our advice is worth listening to...

I applaud you for that. When you first started posting, I and many others, saw your attitude as a bit brash and argumentative, or worse. However, in reading your responses in this thread(the last few), and in your "becoming a trainer" thread, it does seem that you have taken a step back and realized that NONE of us have ALL the answers. You have taken a large amount of criticism and learned from it(at least I think you have) and this will certainly help you become a better horseman/person/whatever in the future.

It isn't wrong to have or even express your opinion. But, the way in which you choose to express it and interact with others is very important. 

And, lastly, it is always(used this word for a bit of humor..) better to avoid lumping an instrument, technique, method, style, etc. into a blanket statement; i.e. - "..bits are cruel..."


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

Yes Totilas wirks nicely, but he does not look happy. I get a very effective outline of of her. I love doing dressage more now than I used to. Thought I'd share I've ridden his half brother too (it was amazing) yes he was in a bit and I was very light on the hand, however he didn't look happy. He didn't seem to know that he could gallop with a rider too. I love riding, I just think constant contact doesn't do a horse any good.


----------



## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> he was in a bit and I was very light on the hand, however he didn't look happy


 to do dressage(higher levels especially) the horse needs to really concentrate, and thus will not necessarily look happy. Watch dancers or gymnasts doing an intricate move that involves a lot of strength, flexibility and concentration. Do they have a happy grin on their faces? virtually never, and if they are smiling is just a false smile for show. They usually look quite serious. A high level dressage horse is the same.


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

I don't mean happy by their expression, by how tight they are. Show jumoers snd race horses usually look like they're hsving a ball. Also gymnasts have a choice to do iv things so if they dont look happy they'll still say afterwards that tgey enjoyed it ect... whereas a horse cannot.


----------



## HollyBubbles (Jun 22, 2009)

OP, not all results from hackamores are horrible... Again, equipment is only as harsh as the hands of the rider make it.

My old mare that I first learnt to ride on, would pull and tug and just generally go horribly in a snaffle, I changed to a rubber mullen mouth and she was happy, but then I got given a hackamore to try, and you know what? I show jumped her in that, she went beautifully and started responding to my seat position rather than my reins, which meant there was no more tugging and pulling on the face. I hardly had to touch those reins, and when I did it was very lightly.
I went back to a bit so I could legally compete her in an A&P show.... First ride, she threw me off and broke my ribs.

Moral here, every horse is different, and pieces of equipment are only as cruel as you make them. The two thoroughbreds I have now will not ever be happy bitless, but they do just fine in french links.


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

I literally just said that the Hackamores I have known to be used have caused problems, ill fitting, used wrong or not logged after properly I don't know but they caused issue, probably due to the rider. Also, I think there are different kinds of Hackamores. Plus bitless can be done at high levels including the Olympics.


----------



## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

madyasmkey said:


> If you are willing to put the time in to train a horse to ride in a bit so responsively why not spend that time on not putting a bit in their mouths.
> 
> Everyone seems to just read the bit they don't like about my post and then reply but I said all horses are different and work in didn't ways. If a horse leafs well and doesn't evade the head collar then they will ride bitless just as well. The responsive they are on the ground the less you use your lead rope, right? Same goes for riding if you're willing to put the time and effort in to train the with a bit, try putting the same time and effort without a bit.
> 
> ...


OK, have to ask....where have you done your research and studies to show that horses end up with all these mouth problems you talk about?

And everything you have said is your opinion.....not based on fact.

And for the bold....if you are having problems riding a horse with a bit....man that's on YOU and YOUR skills or lack thereof, and not the bit.


----------



## jumanji321 (Dec 1, 2010)

They might be able to do the movements bitless, but they can't compete at the Olympics bitless unless it's showjumping. I have never heard of a dressage competition at any level that allows you to go bitless.


----------



## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

^Exactly. I posted the USEF rules for Dressage on another page.


----------



## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

OP, there is one thing I've noticed all truly gifted, experienced, talented horsemen/women(not necessarily the popular ones, but the ones that are truly great) have - _HUMILITY._ The truth is, the more you learn, the more you realize you have yet to learn.

Kind of like standing in a thick forest, and claiming you've seen it all, when you've really seen nothing, just the one spot in your immediate field of vision. You telling every passerby, in no uncertain terms that all leaves are green, all birds are black and it snows in the winter, and no matter what they say to the contrary, that is the way it is, would be silly, and ignorant. 
If you were to be open minded, explore the forest, you would soon find out that the forest was huge, the continent you were on is massive, and the world is incomprehensibly large and diverse. All leaves are NOT green, birds come in many colors, and in some places there is no such thing as snow.

You are currently at the stage where you are "standing in the forest" of equine knowledge, telling everyone how it is, when you don't yet even have an idea of how big the "forest" is. Do your self a favor. _Open your eyes. _See the possibilities, learn, consider all options, and broaden your horizons. Until you are willing to do that, you will never reach your potential.


----------



## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

^ OMG, you are my hero! If I could LOVE this I would....LIKE just doesn't do it justice. Humility is huge in this business, and EGO is the anti-christ. Super-egos have NO business in the horse business, as this industry changes every year, and if you think you know it all and have nothing to learn....it will get you in to trouble. I've been at this for 52 years, and I'm STILL learning to "keep current and up with the times."


----------



## Shoebox (Apr 18, 2012)

BlueSpark said:


> OP, there is one thing I've noticed all truly gifted, experienced, talented horsemen/women(not necessarily the popular ones, but the ones that are truly great) have - _HUMILITY._ The truth is, the more you learn, the more you realize you have yet to learn.
> 
> Kind of like standing in a thick forest, and claiming you've seen it all, when you've really seen nothing, just the one spot in your immediate field of vision. You telling every passerby, in no uncertain terms that all leaves are green, all birds are black and it snows in the winter, and no matter what they say to the contrary, that is the way it is, would be silly, and ignorant.
> If you were to be open minded, explore the forest, you would soon find out that the forest was huge, the continent you were on is massive, and the world is incomprehensibly large and diverse. All leaves are NOT green, birds come in many colors, and in some places there is no such thing as snow.
> ...


This is the most accurate way of describing it I have ever heard. I LOVE this. If I could like it 100 times I would. I'm definitely going to use this, if you don't mind, when I need to - you hit the nail on the head so hard with this!


----------



## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

All I have to say is your horse is a SAINT!! Fire your trainer and her one who isn't just going to send you over these obstacles despite you getting left behind, hanging on the reins, etc. 

Cross country - YouTube
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

If i was yanking on my mare that much with a BITLESS she would have a fit! I can TRY contact with her bitless, but i dont want to try with a bit yet. Also i have better posture jumping ditches in a western saddle that is a size too big and stirrups too long. Your trainer should NOT have you jumping jumps that high until you perfect your posture. You are looking like someone photoshopped you to the horse half the time and not only are you set up to fall off, but you are throwing your horses balance off as well. You are YANKING on his mouth. You are BALANCING on his mouth, he should be balancing on your reins, not the other way around. 

I don't have the best seat and I have never shown, but at least I TRY to have an open mind. I will listen to what other have to say before i get set on an opinion. I LOVE the idea of barefoot and bitless, but then there is reality and that reality is that it dose not always work.

Look up vaqueros. I used to HATE the big bits and their style until I read up on it. Now I'm enthralled with it! look up Varian arabians (she really explains it) as well. They use huge spade bits and yet they don't need them to make the horse listen, they don't CLING to the bit, they use the bit to balance the horse and as a aid.


----------



## Bagheera (Apr 23, 2013)

I just love blanket statements. Horses aren't supposed to have metal in their mouths and bits are cruel. I'm just going to take this one step farther. Horses are not meant to be ridden. Horses do not wear blankets naturally. Horses should not wear shoes. Horses should not live in stalls. It is unnatural to geld a horse. Horses do not naturally eat grain. Horses are not originally from North America, therefore they should be removed from the continent. 

Unless you can research every bit ever used and produced in the entire world, you can not make a blanket statement like bits are cruel. It's just illogical. That's like saying all girls should wear pink. Yes, maybe a handful of bits were specifically designed to be cruel, but not the majority of them. Sorry.


----------



## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

^ agree, but slight correction. Horses evolved in North America, then moved across the land bridge. So they came from here, then died out .


----------



## Bagheera (Apr 23, 2013)

Darn it! Can I remove them from Australia at least? Lol


----------



## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Lol XD


----------



## TheAQHAGirl (Aug 10, 2012)

SlideStop said:


> All I have to say is your horse is a SAINT!! Fire your trainer and her one who isn't just going to send you over these obstacles despite you getting left behind, hanging on the reins, etc.
> 
> Cross country - YouTube
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If I were a horse and my rider did that, I would hate bits too (actually, I would hate anything that goes on my head, I would never want people touching my head).
-----

I don't want to get too involved with this, because people have said the same things I would have said, but I would like to input my two cents.

In reply to what the OP said:


madyasmkey said:


> *Yes Totilas wirks nicely, but he does not look happy.* I get a very effective outline of of her. I love doing dressage more now than I used to. Thought I'd share I've ridden his half brother too (it was amazing) yes he was in a bit and I was very light on the hand, however he didn't look happy. He didn't seem to know that he could gallop with a rider too. I love riding, I just think constant contact doesn't do a horse any good.


Okay so this is a big, personal pet peeve of mine. _Smile! Smile! Smile!_ The judge is looking at you, *SMILE*!! 

When riding our half-ton animals, we need to be focused, connected, quiet, patient, sensitive, etc. When I ride my horse, I typically don't smile (at least, I don't think so--sometimes I'll smile and not notice). Does that mean I'm not having fun? Heck no! I love what I do and I do what I love. Just because I don't smile doesn't mean that I'm not enjoying it. Especially riding my green filly (now 4! Where has the time gone??), I am very very concentrated. I only listen for the surrounding (such as announcer's or a rider's) voice, my surroundings (riders coming up on my side, horses, etc.), and (if I have one) the pattern I'm supposed to know. Once I'm in the 'zone' everything basically shuts off (emotion particularly) and I focus on those things only...Sounds robotic, right (eh, it helps my horse and I in the ring)?

But once I'm in the center of the ring, done with my rail class/pattern class/etc., I give everything a big smile, give my horse a pat and a kiss, and leave the arena when excused.

It can be like that with horses. You're in this moment of pure concentration and everything around you is blocked and the only thing on your mind is your horse and your pattern. From what I know, when you are heavily concentrated you have a straight expression...That may vary depending on how concentrated you are, or otherwise.

One you're done concentrating you soak everything up and you either leave the ring with sheer relief/happiness/etc. or you leave the ring with a different perspective and become more humble (or all above)...I have certainly learned that lesson.

Look at some of Totilas's dressage patterns. He looks so heavily focused, and yeah he does seem a little tense. But when hes done with the pattern it all goes down the drain...Have you ever did a recital in front of a crowd before? You're tense and concentrated, you may have even stressed about your act prior to the recital. But when you were done with it you instantly felt relief/happiness/accomplishment...Same goes with horses. Once they're done doing their job, and they know it, just like us they take a deep breath. People can easily relate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKQgTiqhPbw

Now, some people can put a smile on their face when they are heavily concentrated...Blue Hors Matine has SUCH expression and emphasis on her movement that it is so hard to say that she doesn't love what she is doing. Sure you can teach a horse a piaffe or a pirouette, but you can't teach a horse emphasis nor to love their job. 

OP, it sounds like you have much yet to learn. No shame in that. We all do, each and every one of us. The best thing you can do is ask questions, be grateful, and be humble. Everything can be a learning experience if you take it the right way. People here have given lovely responses with backed up facts that you may want to look over again. 

Also, please remember that there are millions of horses out there. The one-size-fits-all rule doesn't necessarily apply to the equestrian world. Just because you trained x amount of horses and they happen to like bitless doesn't mean the other million horses will like it as well. I personally haven't dealt with a lot of horses, like those people who are blessed are. I can't name them off the top of my head, maybe 7ish (and by dealing with these horses I mean that I was involved with their training)...With that limited window I quickly found out that rule doesn't apply very well. I have had the wonderful experience training my own green horse, got her before she was 2 and as I mentioned she's already 4. She's as cute as a button and pretty much does it all; bitless, bit, bareback, you name it she'll do it. I personally believe she is the perfect mirror of myself and what I know, and yes there are flaws...With that in mind, think of other people and how everyone varies opinions. 

Everybody in the world cannot agree whether bits are harmful or not. It's just that simple. Same with horses. Not all will like bits, but that doesn't mean all horses dislike like bits.

Consider your options, learn more, and enjoy it.


----------



## picup436 (Nov 22, 2012)

madyasmkey said:


> Yes Totilas wirks nicely, but he does not look happy. I get a very effective outline of of her. I love doing dressage more now than I used to. Thought I'd share I've ridden his half brother too (it was amazing) yes he was in a bit and I was very light on the hand, however he didn't look happy. He didn't seem to know that he could gallop with a rider too. I love riding, I just think constant contact doesn't do a horse any good.





madyasmkey said:


> I don't mean happy by their expression, by how tight they are. Show jumoers snd race horses usually look like they're hsving a ball. Also gymnasts have a choice to do iv things so if they dont look happy they'll still say afterwards that tgey enjoyed it ect... whereas a horse cannot.


You really need to educate yourself from reliable sources. 

A. Dressage horses, especially at a high level, are ridden at with a high level of collection. Now I don't mean see sawing a horse's mouth to force it's nose in, that's rubbish at any level. These horses are ridden from leg into hand, and have been conditioned over a number of years to be able to sustain collection for a period of time. It is a sport of discipline and requires HUGE amounts of training and dedication to get to that level.

B. Totilas doesn't look happy. He looks like he's concentrating really hard and listening to his rider. He is a young stallion and of course when at big shows he is going to have some tension - the atmosphere at these shows is incredibly intense. His rise to the top was a relatively short one, and to perform at the level he does at such a young age without completely blowing his mind is a credit to both the horse, the rider and his training.


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

SlideStop said:


> All I have to say is your horse is a SAINT!! Fire your trainer and her one who isn't just going to send you over these obstacles despite you getting left behind, hanging on the reins, etc.
> 
> Cross country - YouTube
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I know my position was terrible there and I regularly that I need to work on my position. I don't rely on my reins though because I often ride spooks and all sorts without, it is something that I teach my self. I was very nervous that day and wasn't up for most of these fences and shouldn't gave done them. I was just told to follow a horse over these fences because if we weren't she'd have stopped. I never said my position was great but she is not had shy never had been and wasn't scared of the bit. At the moment when I put her bitless bridle on she goes to take the bit. 

My horse has saved my butt more times than I can count. This was


----------



## HollyBubbles (Jun 22, 2009)

madyasmkey said:


> I literally just said that the Hackamores I have known to be used have caused problems, ill fitting, used wrong or not logged after properly I don't know but they caused issue, probably due to the rider. Also, I think there are different kinds of Hackamores. Plus bitless can be done at high levels including the Olympics.


I know, and I'm not getting after you for saying that about them, you've only seen what you've seen, much like personally I dislike many pieces of equipment, but only because I either have no experience with them, or have seen them cause damage by incompetent hands. All I was doing was just informing you of my own experience with a hackamore is all, just to say that not all of them are bad, the one I used was a mechanical hackamore, this one to be exact.


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

Also, my mare does pretty much anything I ask of her too, bits, bitless, bareback, Western, English or cirrus. I'm pretty sure if she was big enough she'd do gymnastics too. And the horses I've trained have been broken with bits, my point was they can all be ridden bitless too because that's how I started them off. Their owners wanted them to have bits so I spent hours working with them to take a bit without having to open their moths for them. 

It's like when I was teaching my horse to lay down, I watched many videos on how different people did it. I ended up using one persons way with a lunge line because she didn't want to do it, so I had to go through her trying to pull her foot from me. If I'd done that how some showed it by just holding her leg with my hand, she'd have never done it. If she was younger, I could've done it but her being as big as she is I couldn't control her without the leverage of the role and I can see how the same principle will work for horses bits too.


----------



## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

madyasmkey said:


> Also, my mare does pretty much anything I ask of her too, bits, bitless, bareback, Western, English or cirrus. I'm pretty sure if she was big enough she'd do gymnastics too. *And the horses I've trained have been broken with bits, my point was they can all be ridden bitless too because that's how I started them off.* Their owners wanted them to have bits so I spent hours working with them to take a bit without having to open their moths for them.
> 
> It's like when I was teaching my horse to lay down, I watched many videos on how different people did it. I ended up using one persons way with a lunge line because she didn't want to do it, so I had to go through her trying to pull her foot from me. If I'd done that how some showed it by just holding her leg with my hand, she'd have never done it. If she was younger, I could've done it but her being as big as she is I couldn't control her without the leverage of the role and I can see how the same principle will work for horses bits too.


So you've trained horses from ground to finish? Got any vids of them?


----------



## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

madyasmkey said:


> I know my position was terrible there and I regularly that I need to work on my position. I don't rely on my reins though because I often ride spooks and all sorts without, it is something that I teach my self. I was very nervous that day and wasn't up for most of these fences and shouldn't gave done them. I was just told to follow a horse over these fences because if we weren't she'd have stopped. I never said my position was great but she is not had shy never had been and wasn't scared of the bit. At the moment when I put her bitless bridle on she goes to take the bit.
> 
> My horse has saved my butt more times than I can count. This was


If you didn't were scared you shouldn't have done it. What does that accomplish?.... Besides some major discomfort to your horse? My trainer would have NEVER done that to me. She would have ripped my off after the third time and your literally hanging on this horses mouth in also every photo. My trainer understood that accidents happen but when it apparent that you look like a disaster it's back to basics. 

Not to mention if this was you nine months ago... Probably not trainer material. Becoming a trainer is a good goal to have but your not ready.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

madyasmkey said:


> I literally just said that the Hackamores I have known to be used have caused problems,* ill fitting, used wrong *or not logged after properly I don't know but they caused issue, *probably due to the rider.* Also, I think there are different kinds of Hackamores.


So if the hackamores you have seen were used wrong and ill-fitting, why do you blame the hackamore as being "horrible" in your original statement?

The hackamore didn't cause the problem. The rider caused the problem by using the hackamore wrong and not fitting it properly. 

Yes there are different kinds of hackamores. And once again, I am confused why you would say all hackamores are horrible (your original statement) when you don't even know what all the different types of hackamores are? How can you say all of them are bad when you don't even know what you are referring to?

Exactly as BlueSpark said --> You are standing in a forest and can't see beyond the trees in front of you. 



madyasmkey said:


> My horse has saved my butt more times than I can count.


I agree. God bless your horse for putting up with your position in that video. Clearly you know what you did wrong, but it's been a long time since I've seen someone hang on the reins so badly. 




madyasmkey said:


> I was very nervous that day and wasn't up for most of these fences and shouldn't gave done them.


Hindsight is 20/20. You should never have ridden that course. You were not near ready. Hopefully that has taught you a valuable lesson, although unfortunately, it was your horse that had to pay the price from your lack of judgement. 

Are you still taking riding lessons?

You definately need to learn how to use your seat and legs more, and use the reins less.


----------



## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

A bit is a means of conveying a message, to add finesse to what the seat and legs are asking. Upper level dressage horses may have reins that appear tight but because the rider's hands are quiet the horse will tip it's nose back to relieve the pressure. It is hands that move too much that doesn't allow the horse to do this.


----------



## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

Slide--You took the words right out of my mouth.


----------



## jimmyp (Sep 5, 2013)

Ok.... I have scanned through ALOT of this and it is silly. OP I keep seeing you talk about YOUR horse.... How many other horses do you ride in a given Day? Week? Month? Year?

If all I rode every day was the same horse day in and day out, I could **** near teach it to go better by blowing in its ears than the average joe off of the street could ride it, so to say you ride your horse better than anyone else is like me saying my dog only listens to me. 

Bits are cruel? I have opened a horses face up with a side pull because he was charging through it. same horse will act like a puppy in a egg butt snaffle, which of those situations seem cruel to you?

Jim


----------



## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

^ yea, I have seen sidepulls leave permanent rub marks on a horse's nose, and then some where the hair grew back white....sure sign of someone yanking on a sidepull and leaving lasting damage. With bitless bridles, hacks, sidepulls and bosals....you are using PRESSURE elsewhere...nose, poll, etc.


----------



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

My dear, I don't want you to take this the wrong way and get offended because it's not the way I mean it.

You are still _very_ young and, from what I've read on here, you've not had very good instruction in the art of riding and understanding, and especially _training_, horses.


I mean, I don't even ride English or on contact, but _I_ know that see-sawing a horse's mouth does nothing but make them want to evade the bit, it does nothing to change the frame or collection of their body.

It's no wonder you have such a poor opinion of bits, having an instructor telling you to ride that way, but seesawing and pulling on a horse isn't a _bit_ problem, it's a _riding_ problem. Being in a halter or a sidepull or anything else won't make it any more comfortable for the horse.

I'd really suggest that you find a different instructor who actually knows how collection works and how to achieve it, then step back and realize that there is a LOT that you don't know. Humble yourself a little and start learning everything you can from every venue you have access to.

I know that humility is very hard to find when you're a teen. Lord knows when I was a kid, I let my head get a little too big sometimes, but I was always fortunate enough to have access to horses that would remind me that I was just a kid and didn't know nearly as much as I thought I did. I still suffer pain from injuries that I got as a result of my overconfidence.

Take a step back, take a deep breath, and really look at what you've written in this thread. There is so much of it that expresses opposing thoughts. Like what Beau quoted a minute ago, you talk about the rider being bad and having bad hands, but you try to blame the tack on the horse's face instead of the hands controlling it. That just doesn't compute.

Anyway, I really think you need to find a different, better, instructor that can teach you how to _properly_ use tack and ride well. Not one that over-faces you and your horse with a jump course that you aren't ready for.


----------



## CowgirlLove (Feb 1, 2014)

I ride in a rope halter... not really cuz my horse responds better... but because im too lazy to put the bit in most of the time... and the saddle sometimes lol


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

smrobs said:


> My dear, I don't want you to take this the wrong way and get offended because it's not the way I mean it.
> 
> You are still _very_ young and, from what I've read on here, you've not had very good instruction in the art of riding and understanding, and especially _training_, horses.
> 
> ...


That isn't the only reason I spec using bits and don't like them. I don't ride like that and never will or have. I don't use the same instructor anymore. My examples of bits are not from what I myself have done, but have seen others do.


----------



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

And yet, what you've seen still isn't a _bit_ problem. It's a _rider_ problem.

I've seen horses with almost all the skin taken off their face thanks to bitless options. That doesn't make me hate bitless, it makes me hate inconsiderate riders.

*Any* tool is only as good as the person using it.


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

And again on a previous comment I said I was wrong to say bits are cruel, it is at the hands of the rider.


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

jimmyp said:


> Ok.... I have scanned through ALOT of this and it is silly. OP I keep seeing you talk about YOUR horse.... How many other horses do you ride in a given Day? Week? Month? Year?
> 
> If all I rode every day was the same horse day in and day out, I could **** near teach it to go better by blowing in its ears than the average joe off of the street could ride it, so to say you ride your horse better than anyone else is like me saying my dog only listens to me.
> 
> ...


Don't know what a side pull is. And I ride almost all the horses at my yard, previous hard and where I got my horse from (that is when we're not breaking them in)


----------



## jumanji321 (Dec 1, 2010)

This is a sidepull:










They also come in a rope nose variety which is the type I most often see abused. Mine is covered in vet wrap to make it softer.


----------



## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

BlueSpark said:


> Obviously. It would be ridiculous to assume I meant ALL things done for thousands of years, and I'm not sure why you would assume that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry, hadn't checked here in bit.

Actually not using a bit has been historically been used before the bit (obviously) and continued throughout history along with the bit.
The bit appears to have been used as a shortcut, but that's a different topic.

As for who was not using a bit. Well, I'll keep the list short :lol:, because I don't feel like doing a class on it. So I'll just grab two of the notables from ancient times that were going without bits LONG after bits had started to be used.
(The Persians didn't adopt the bit until after they were conquered by Alexander)
About 2,500 years ago (long after bits had started being used by some) the ancient Persians used what was basically a braided band that fit over the nose (much like todays bosal). These are the same Persians that Xenophon (hopefully you know who he was....famous Greek horseman who's writings are still read today...if not you might want to read up on him...he disproves that theory that horses need shoes by saying to take the steps to prepare/condition their feet) admired so much, because of their control and mastery of the horse that he modeled the Greek Cav on them.

A couple hundred years over and a bit under 2,000 years ago (prior to, during and after the time that Rome become an empire) the Numidians (arguably some of histories greatest horseman.....and although they were very effect light Cav, their Cav was not good for much else militarily beyond a light Cav function....but great horsemen) did even bother to use a bridle. They used something like a band or harness around the horses neck.

The point is that people got so use to the easy way that they didn't want to take the time to train differently. Control of a horse has never required a bit. It's just easier to get from untrained to trained if using a bit. Folks like to say you "can't do this" or "you can't do that" without a bit. No "they" can't, but some people have. Entire societies have, but these groups always did it that way. Just to use these same two. The Persians around the time a Darius (he was a famous Persian king) would have probably wondered "why do you need to put that thing in the horse's mouth? Are you not able to control it otherwise? You need to train your horse better." The Numidians would have gone step further and probably wondered "why you're putting all that stuff on your horses head?" and concluded that you really didn't know how to train a horse very well, because you needed all that extra stuff to control it. :lol:

The use of going bitless has been around for a LONG time (the bosal has been around for over 2500 years and is still used). If different societies had won the wars the bit might not be as widely used. The bit was an easy shortcut that become the norm as people soon didn't know any other way to training a horse to do things without it.


----------



## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

BlueSpark said:


> Obviously. It would be ridiculous to assume I meant ALL things done for thousands of years, and I'm not sure why you would assume that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry, I forgot to make it easier for you to check up on the history.

Research the "hakma" (might need to double check my spelling). That was what the ancient Persians were using and it was still being used by the Moors, on the other side of North Africa when they invaded and conquered Spain around 700 AD (which would appear to be the logical reason why the "bosal" is considered to have come from Spain...even though it was being used, but called a hakma, over 1,000 years earlier in the fertile crescent region....although we don't know for sure how long before then, but we do know that it was already in use by the Persians before the time of Darius I around 2500 years ago).


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Yes, many of us use bits because it is easier to train a horse to respond well in a bit...so what is wrong with that? Most of us also use stirrups, because they make it easier to ride a horse, as does a saddle. A horse can be trained to ride without a bridle, but most of us have neither the time, the inclination nor the skill to do so. 

Since many horses, including my 3, have no objection to the use of bits, why would I want to spend my limited saddle time trying to train them to ride without one? All 3 HAVE been ridden bitless, and I rode Mia bitless for about 3 years, but I'm a recreational rider. I ride 3-5 times a week, depending on weather and other concerns. I'm not a pro, I have limited facilities for training, and 5 years of experience. So yes...I use a saddle, stirrups, and a bit. It makes riding more fun for me and less dangerous for Mia.


----------



## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

bsms said:


> Yes, many of us use bits because it is easier to train a horse to respond well in a bit...so what is wrong with that? Most of us also use stirrups, because they make it easier to ride a horse, as does a saddle. A horse can be trained to ride without a bridle, but most of us have neither the time, the inclination nor the skill to do so.
> 
> Since many horses, including my 3, have no objection to the use of bits, why would I want to spend my limited saddle time trying to train them to ride without one? All 3 HAVE been ridden bitless, and I rode Mia bitless for about 3 years, but I'm a recreational rider. I ride 3-5 times a week, depending on weather and other concerns. I'm not a pro, I have limited facilities for training, and 5 years of experience. So yes...I use a saddle, stirrups, and a bit. It makes riding more fun for me and less dangerous for Mia.


Never said there was something wrong with it (read my first post).

I was answering a question posed to one of my earlier responses to their earlier comment :lol:. Pointing out that doing something for thousands of years doesn't actually make it right. It could actually be very wrong (e.g. feeding horses grain) and to follow up on their next question, pointing out that many of the great horse people of the past did, in fact, not use bits even after the bit was commonly in use in other places (even by their neighbors), and that practice has continued in places for a couple of millennia up to today.

That someone uses a bit is there choice (owning the horse(s) allows a person the right to do what they want providing it doesn't break a law). What we do doesn't even have to be right, just has to not be illegal :lol: (e.g. a lot of people still feed grain). No one is required to follow the advice of Xenophon (horses wouldn't be shod), techniques of Nubians (we wouldn't have bridles...pity they're not still around doing that...would have loved to learn their technique for training), the practices of the Moors (we'd be using something like a bosal) any more than they have to follow what was done in 18th century London :lol: (the standard European practices still used by many today...or not :lol. We can even ignore equine medical and scientific studies. Thankfully, we have the privilege of being able to ignore or accept what we like (even try to invent something new...although at this point in history that would be pretty difficult, if not impossible, when it comes to something new in dealing with horses).
I would be far more upset if they made a law that required me to feed my horses grain or be shod (I'd see a lot of fines and jail time in my future :lol than I would be over a bit, since a bit doesn't have to be harmful (I could even just put in place and not attach the reins so it's not used and still sort of be in compliance). :lol:


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

jumanji321 said:


> This is a sidepull:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm confused, which part is called the side pull? Or is it a type of bridle. 

Also I was looking a a multi bridle can't remember the name now is said to be built from the inside out our something like that, can be bitless, with a bit and takes the pressure of the bit off the tongue. It looks good and I'm thinking about saving up, I'll find the url for the video, but would it be worth spending the money on one? I CBA to makeanother thread for it.


----------



## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

its lbs not miles said:


> (Sorry, not reading all the posts. Just had a comment to make so if I'm repeating anything you have my apologies).
> 
> Ok, while I do not use bits, it's not from the perspective of them being cruel. While some bits a more severe than others, any bit can be made harmful to some degree if used in a way to cause pain or not harmful if never used a manner that would cause pain.
> 
> ...


My first post on this topic (so you don't have to look for it) :lol:


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)




----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

It doesn't look like something my horse would like. She would not be happy about the strap under the jaw. She works well in a one-ear bridle, so she obviously does not worry about 'painful pressure on the poll'. 










He talks about damaging blood vessels, etc - but I've never seen any evidence it happens. Damaged blood vessels = bruising or bleeding. It repeats the nonsense about the knife edge jaw, without any concept of how the bits actually rest in the horse's mouth.

If you don't want to take a chance on hurting the horse's mouth, ride with slack in the reins and choose a decent bit. Riding with constant contact is not wrong, but not everyone has business doing so. Those of us who do not can ride with slack, and only apply pressure when needed.

I don't need a tongue protection system. This is plenty protection enough:










Frankly, if someone needs a 'tongue protection system', then what they REALLY need is to take some lessons.

I do not object to folks riding bitless. If it works for them and their horse and their needs, then I'm happy for them and wish them well. I just get tired of the nonsense that I and others are hurting our horses by using bits. Most of us do not ride around using bits like this:










(which is, happily, sold with a warning that it is a severe bit that can sore a horse's mouth if used regularly or badly). Most of us LIKE our horses, and want our horses to enjoy the ride as well.

I have injured Mia with a rope sidepull. I have not injured her in a bit. I also have been able to use a curb bit to teach her the world is not as scary as she once thought - which would be tough to do if snaffle bits were evil, and curb bits the height of viciousness. A tool that teaches a horse calmness cannot be too horrible a thing...


----------



## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

^ I have a bit like that twisted wire....and it does take special hands to use it. I've seen people at my shows, use a bit that like and purposely saw back and forth with it....so they are using it to 'sore" the mouth, so the NEXT bit they use to show in....the horse backs right off it and holds it carefully...so not necessary.

BSMS, is this the type of sidepull you have used?



This one has a rope nose.....that can rub like a son of a gun and cause permanent cosmetic damage. I've used these before too and have wrapped the nose with vetwrap...much more comfortable on the nose.


----------



## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

As as already been stated, any tool is only as good as the hands that use it.
I personally don't like the Dr. Cooks Bitless bridles and most side pulls because I feel the release is sloppy and slow. That being said I do love my bosal.
I ride Mona in a junior cow horse bit that she does fine in. I do think though that type of bit can be confusing if you don't know what your doing and isn't a good fit for an inexperienced rider.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

This is the rope halter I still use as a halter, but no longer use as a bitless bridle. This picture was with Trooper:










It is obvious why a halter like that offers little control to a scared horse. The reins attach roughly at the area of a throatlatch. All you have is a loop around a large part of the horse's face, that a horse can easily pull against or refuse to turn. 

Mia's last ride in it as a bitless bridle was one where she panicked over...what? I don't know. At that point, she was getting progressively more nervous with each ride, not progressively calmer. She went 2 hours without stopping. I could slow her to a walk, but any attempt to dismount resulted in her bolting. After 2 hours of struggle, I had worn a lot of hair off her face. I finally brute forced her head around, tied the reins a couple of loops around the saddle horn (I was using a western saddle), and dismounted during the couple of seconds it took for her to straighten out. She then leaped forward, started a bolt, and then spun around and returned to me when I called her name.

Any side pull design that allows the reins to attach closer to the nose would help, but there is just no way that a sidepull offers the finesse that a simple snaffle (or Billy Allen, or Jr Cow Horse) offers.

If I ever get Mia calm enough, and well enough trained to seat & leg that I trust her to keep listening when scared, then I'd love to switch her to a sidepull like this one:










But again: I'm a recreational rider who rides her 3-5 hours/week, and she sometimes goes a few weeks with no riding. I'm not a pro. I need to accept MY limitations when building a training plan. I do not have big meadows to work her in, or a track, or a decent sized arena. Off property, most of my riding is on rocky trails with gullies, surrounded by cactus. Even the dirt roads here are not smooth or level.

Given my limits and where I live and what I do, I'm very glad she has responded so well in a curb. I have always been able to get her to stand her ground in a Billy Allen, and every time she stands her ground in the face of fear AND THE SCARY THING GOES AWAY, she gets a little calmer and a little more ready to listen to me instead of her fears.

We've talked about taking her up for a summer of ranch work at a friend's ranch in Utah. What she really needs is a job, and country where she can go for 10+ hour days. But what I do know is this: she is being helped by her bit, not harmed. She is easily 10 times calmer now than a year ago. She is sometimes lazy on a trail ride, which feels good after all the sideways trotting, "OMG Crouches", and bolts that she once did. A well-designed western bit has been a TOOL to help her learn to handle her fears. I'll be darned if I see anything wrong with that!


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

I can ride with slack reins and do so when I'm not doing dressage or show jumping. You probably wouldn't have the nerve issues because you haven't got an english ridden nose band and I know a lot of horses that do scratch their heads after work. However most are horses that pull and fight the rider and are usually in riding schools.


----------



## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

My horses both are itchy after riding, but we've usually worked up quite a sweat so that's understandable. Riding with contact doesn't mean you are pulling on the bit, you just take up the slack and push the horse from the back into the bit.


----------



## Khainon (Feb 24, 2013)

for me personally..i do not use a bit on my gelding..as his wolf teeth are still intact...and the few times i had a bit on him..it would get caught on his teeth and he would refuse to open his mouth...which would end up with him rearing and back peddling out of fear and confusion..so..no bits for him..for my mare i use a simple D ring snaffle and she is fine..bits are fine as long as they are not used in an improper fashion, just like anything you put on a horse..bit..bridle..saddle etc..all of it can cause harm if not used correctly.


----------



## HollyBubbles (Jun 22, 2009)

madyasmkey said:


> I can ride with slack reins and do so when I'm not doing dressage or show jumping. You probably wouldn't have the nerve issues because you haven't got an english ridden nose band and I know a lot of horses that do scratch their heads after work. However most are horses that pull and fight the rider and are usually in riding schools.


So english nosebands now automatically cause nerve damage do they? That's funny, because I've ridden with english nosebands (there are many forms of them BTW) for the last 6 years and not had one incident of nerve damage. I think what you mean is that a noseband could possibly cause nerve damage _if used incorrectly_ that is the key here again, incorrectly. I have a bridle with a standard noseband on it, and I have a bridle with a crank noseband, doesn't necessarily mean I crank them up as tight as possible on my horses face because I ride english, that is a rather large misconception you have there.
I always have my nosebands so that I can fit 2-3 fingers comfortably underneath.. My gelding that objects strongly to gear that is uncomfortable/doesn't fit? He opens his mouth for the bit and reaches into my bridle, he doesn't ignore any of my lightly given aids, doesn't object when I ask him to stop, or to reach forward into my hands.

And he LOVES a good scratch after the bridle is removed.. That thing is leather, it's hot out, he gets a sweat up around his ears and over his browband area, over his entire body, him having a big ol scratch afterwards is his reward for a job well done. He doesn't pull, he doesn't fight, he is not a riding school horse. Where on earth are you getting all your info from?


----------



## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

I got a reminder today on why NOT to ALWAYS ride bitless. My mare was acting up so i used the bit today. On the way home she decided a walk was NOT fast enough and bolted. After pulling the spazed horse to a stop (she has not bolted in over a year so she was feeling REALLY good today) I hopped off and checked her mouth. Not a bruise or nothing. Yet when I ride in my side pull, or in the Dr. Cook she gets this painful line in her face. I don't have hard hands, but it happens from her getting excited, or me asking her to back and she doesn't want to (she is an old mare who gets a little cranky at times lol). She will listen in the bit better then the sidepull, and im not putting a painful divot in her face.

My friend can ride in a hack, and there are several bitless riders in my area. Hey if it works for them then go for it. But when you CANNOT control your horse bitless, you have NO business riding on the trails bitless. If you want to try bitless good, but just because i can keep my handfull of a mare in line with a bit dose not make it cruel.

*Sidenote
SOMEONE, not saying who, has been giving my mare extra treats and food at the barn, so she was WAY hyped up -_-'. Arent older horses supposed to be slower? lol! And she is now (again thanks to some anonymous people) fat, like light arab who is 14.1-2hh going from 960 to 1,015 fat lol. XD.


----------



## equinesnfelines (Feb 1, 2014)

very new to this forum and an incredibly shy person in general (except when talking horses) but wanted to comment on how many of the replies not only give educated justification for their comments and choices but seem to also care very much that their choices are comfortable but effective on their horses! 
trying to get back in the saddle (overcoming confidence issues) on a paddock purty--broke out as a 5 yr old and not rode alot since--that has had way too much time off---soooo...back in the 3" O-ring...and now into the sidepull again. why the bit? because his confidence feeds off of mine and i needed to know that the steering and brakes would be there...plus the friend of mine helping me restart him (bullriders have no confidence issues and great balance-LOL) starts everything in big O-rings...he is amazed at the softness and response the horse is giving in the sidepull though...groundwork-groundwork-groundwork with a rope halter!!! 

every bit must be used in hands that fully understand how that particular bit works in relation to pressure being applied...but so must everything we put on their heads! being able to individualize your training to fit the mind of the horse you are training is the mark of a "trainer"...so the tools of choice are just that.

body language based on herd pecking order responses may work in groundwork and continue to give great behavior but once we choose to get on the back we have taken a horse to a different level than anything experienced in the herd. of course the leadership issue should always be settled before that! 

i have enjoyed reading thru so many of these posts and look forward to all the info available here----as each horse educates us so do many riders---we can learn what to do and what not to do--but we must continue to be open to the learning. have a great week ahead--and whoever opened the northern gate--please shut it back--i have had all the cold and wet i (and my dirt) can stand.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

madyasmkey said:


> I can ride with slack reins and do so when I'm not doing dressage or show jumping. You probably wouldn't have the nerve issues because you haven't got an english ridden nose band and I know a lot of horses that do scratch their heads after work. However most are horses that pull and fight the rider and are usually in riding schools.



nerve issues? it might be more a matter of how the nose band is applied; how tight, how high in relation to the cheekbone and all.

now I am curious, because Z always likes to have a good face scratch after out ride. I have a noseband, English style on him, but it is so loose it is almost there for appearances sake. How it could be having any negative effect is a mystery to me, but I am open to learning something new.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

equinesnfelines said:


> very new to this forum and an incredibly shy person in general (except when talking horses) but wanted to comment on how many of the replies not only give educated justification for their comments and choices but seem to also care very much that their choices are comfortable but effective on their horses!
> trying to get back in the saddle (overcoming confidence issues) on a paddock purty--broke out as a 5 yr old and not rode alot since--that has had way too much time off--*-soooo...back in the 3" O-ring...and now into the sidepull again. why the bit? because his confidence feeds off of mine and i needed to know that the steering and brakes would be there...plus the friend of mine helping me restart him (bullriders have no confidence issues and great balance-LOL) starts everything in big O-rings.*..he is amazed at the softness and response the horse is giving in the sidepull though...groundwork-groundwork-groundwork with a rope halter!!!



that makes it sound as if an O ring is only transitory, and only for beginnings and for building training. I STILL ride in an O ring. it is my preferred bit for any horse I have ridden in the last 15 years. I am self admitted to be NO master of horses, but I do not think of an O ring as some sort of training wheels of bits. It is the only tool I will have in my hands to 'speak ' directly to my horse's mouth. 

I am not saying a curb is bad,. but only that I have my hands full working JUST with a lowly O ring, and that's enough to go quite far, indeed.


----------



## picup436 (Nov 22, 2012)

madyasmkey said:


> I can ride with slack reins and do so when I'm not doing dressage or show jumping. You probably wouldn't have the nerve issues because you haven't got an english ridden nose band and I know a lot of horses that do scratch their heads after work. However most are horses that pull and fight the rider and are usually in riding schools.


Are you spouting this just to get a rise out of people, or do you actually believe this?

English nosebands, when fitted correctly, cause no more harm than the bit does. IT ALL COMES DOWN TO THE HANDLER. NOT THE EQUIPMENT. 

Horses quite often like a good scratch after being worked because they are sweaty and itchy. Have you ever gone for a hard ride and enjoyed scratching your head because your scalp is sweaty and itchy from being under your helmet? Same thing, but horses don't have hands to scratch with. Whether they pull or not has absolutely nothing to do with wanting a scratch.


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

I didn't say all did I? No. Just a lot and most weren't sweaty at the time. I used to have an English nose bands and never had her scratch her nose, it's usually her eyes she scratches on a bar of she's sweaty and unless she had flies down her legs then she never really bother when or just after I'm riding, probably does in the field.


----------



## picup436 (Nov 22, 2012)

madyasmkey said:


> I didn't say all did I? No. Just a lot and most weren't sweaty at the time. I used to have an English nose bands and never had her scratch her nose, it's usually her eyes she scratches on a bar of she's sweaty and unless she had flies down her legs then she never really bother when or just after I'm riding, probably does in the field.



Anecdotal "evidence" does not equal proof. 

If you are going to make a statement that infers that item A causes XYZ to happen, you best be able to back up your statement with unbiased, scientific proof.

If you are unable to do so, then perhaps adding a disclaimer such as "In my experience..." or "I have found that..." to any statement you wish to make.


----------



## equinesnfelines (Feb 1, 2014)

certainly did not mean for my post to indicate the the only place for an O-ring was in training--or as a training wheels bit--love the communication i can get with one...i was expressing my viewpoint as there is a time when i want a bit and a time when i am comfortable with the sidepull----my next paragraph i thought indicated that IMHO any thing with reins attached is only as good as the hands holding the reins.....have used an O-ring on everything from a yearling to the 17 yr old mare i sold----she traveled well and was comfortable and responsive with it....i saw no need to change...she had a slight roman nose and a sidepull was just not comfortable for her---again--taking into consideration her individuality she was allowed to do her job in the O-ring. i agree with all statements on here that its the hands holding the reins that either use or abuse.....i do prefer the sidepull if it fits the horse but the O-ring is my choice of bits...have a blessed week!


----------



## jimmyp (Sep 5, 2013)

OH goodness..... Now a horse scratching its head/face after a ride has nerve damage? Most of our horses, wear halters all the time.... or collars, and they scratch their faces on us when ever we take them off, they scratch when we take a bit out of their mouths, they scratch after they fart, they scratch their faces when they breath, they scratch when they.....

You must not have dogs..... cause they like a good scratch occasionally to..... should I take their collars off? 

Oh well, i guess since you have YouTube evidence, and you saw it on the internet it must be true.....

I'm out. haha

Jim


----------



## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

jimmyp said:


> OH goodness..... Now a horse scratching its head/face after a ride has nerve damage? Most of our horses, wear halters all the time.... or collars, and they scratch their faces on us when ever we take them off, they scratch when we take a bit out of their mouths, they scratch after they fart, they scratch their faces when they breath, they scratch when they.....
> 
> You must not have dogs..... cause they like a good scratch occasionally to..... should I take their collars off?
> 
> ...


:lol: It's not just halters or anything in particular. Horses will itch just like we will itch (not always because of anything obvious) and sometimes it's in a spot that they can't scratch or easily reach. A horse can go a month without having anything put on them and they'll still rub on post, trees, etc and still react for "more" when you give them a scratch.


----------



## corgi (Nov 3, 2009)

Different horses need different tools.

My horse is a retired polo pony. I like to trail ride and do judged trail rides. When I use a bit, she clamps down on it and runs. I can get her stopped but it truly becomes a battle that I don't feel like fighting and i don't like being heavy handed.

I started riding her in the bitless halter pictured below and we are both much happier. In her case, I think she associates a bit with her polo days and to her a bit means "run"! She only runs when i ask her to while wearing the bitless. She has been spooked by deer on the trail and I have her under control within a few strides. She doesn't fight the halter.

My husband wanted to try the same bitless bridle on his TWH. It was a disaster. He wouldn't respond to it and the ride was not pleasant. Therefore, he rides in a bit and both horse and rider are happy. 

Blanket statements are usually only made to start arguments.

Also, there are several "fun shows" I have not entered due to the fact that a bit was required, so the OP's statement that a bit isn't required is not always true either. I just choose not to enter those events. Not because bits are cruel, but because I don't like fighting her the entire time she is wearing one.

If I ever get another horse, I will use what works best for that horse. Bit or bitless. It's what we should do as responsible horse owners.


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

I didn't say it definitely did I meant it could explain it. Stop making it seem like I was stating it as a definite fact. I do have dogs and we take their collars off regularly to give their fur where it lays some air. It was something there that might be true.


----------



## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Been skimming and stalking this thread off and on, been a few excellent posts in my opinion.
Can't add much on bits that has been said then repeated to get the point across.

But I have one thing I would like to add to riding "bitless" that comes from experience and advice.
I haven't ridden in a mechanical hack in 20+ years, haven't used a rope noseband side pull maybe once or twice, never any of the Dr. Cooks or Indian hackamores.
But what I have used, is a rope halter for the first couple of rides on starting colts to either transition into the snaffle or hackamore(bosal setup) or rode hackamore (bosal) horses.
My advice, it is easier to numb a horses face than it's mouth. To use a hackamore well, you really need to establish control and keep it. And what I mean by control is by getting in the horses head not man handling him in the device you decide to ride him in. Of course getting in a horses head is the key to any training regardless but it becomes much more obvious in bitless options where the horse can easily choose to ignore the rider or become numb from the rider hanging on the reins.
There are times when things get fast and heated and a reminder is needed. I have had to correct a horse or remind him that he needs to listen to the hackamore as it is so easy for a horse to push through one if he really wants to. I may double him hard a couple of times or back him around to bring him back to me all of which may require a heavier hand than what I would normally ride with. 
This is the important part, if you have to get after the horse and he comes back and gets soft, I adjust the equipment! Move your hackamore up or down just a 1/2 inch, do not numb your horse or break the skin. If you are rubbing the hair off of him- your doing it wrong! (or the equipment doesn't fit)


----------



## Merlot (Sep 12, 2012)

I'm sorry I haven't read all the posts - I know I should before commenting, but I have the general gist.
I probably can't add anything that hasn't already been said, in terms of bits being all about the hands and softness as to whether they are cruel or not.
I ride my girl sometimes in a bit and sometimes in Jaquima (see pics) She goes equally happily in both.
I like the fact that in riding with the bit (a simple myler comfort snaffle), there is nothing on her sensitive nose in terms of nose band. With the jaquima, (Which I chose for instant release of pressure) obviously I like the fact there is nothing in her mouth so for long trail rides, I use it so that she can graze along the way. Also the noseband is totally loose which is something I didn't like about the Dr Cooks bridles where it has to be done up quite tight.
Just my two cents for what they are worth 
PS I know she has her grumpy mare face on in the jaquima pic but it is not because of being without a bit!!! It just gives a clear pic of the bridle ;-)

Merlot in her jaquima...








Merlot in her bit...


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

So today I did a little experiment, I'd noticed that Ginny had started becoming quite difficult to slow down, keep in the outline and just genuinely difficult to control. I found this strange as when I ride in a halter I have non of this. So what I did was I went to the school with both bit and bitless bridle and several types of halter. Out of all of them, my bridle got the worst responses out of her, using the same commands she seemed to Need much tighter reins. With my rope halter and bit, they both worked amazingly. However, I'd never get the right results from the head collar. Putting the bit back in her mouth I was able to be much lighter in the hand and get the outline and have the control I need for dressage. If I had the money I'd probably text more and more bridles and bits to see whether I'd be able to find a bitless bridle that would do the job just as good. I still feel bitless will be better if I can find the right bridle and equipment but until then the bit is the nicest thing for her as long as I stay soft.


----------



## speedy da fish (May 7, 2009)

Again, it really does depend on the horse. My horse prefers to be ridden bitless and I prefer to ride him bitless but that is what works best for me and him. Trust me, I have spent more than enough money on bit experimentation, it's ridiculous!

What is important is that you are soft with your hand. What you are feeling when riding in a bit is the horse resisting your hand, not the bit. Using bitless bridles doesn't necessarily mean that you are softer on the horse.


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

She doesn't resist me when she had the bit in, just the bridle. She's fine working in the snaffle until I can try some other bridles and it was just dressage and schooling I struggle ke with it, I can easily change gait with it, but she seems to hey confused with changing gait and changing place within the gate in the biro less bridle and she losses concentration and focuses more on getting away from the pressure quickly rather than figuring things out.


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Ok, I have read most of this and have come to the following conclusions:

OP, you need to be proof reading your posts, I have great faith in the English education system and struggle to believe that your horse has a * biro less bridle*, it helps your credibility, if you pay attention to details.

I also struggle to believe that at the tender age of 16 you have trained that many horses from start to finish, I don't want to call you a flat out liar, but I'm tempted. It is an exceptional person who has the maturity to take a horse from 'wild' to trained at 14 or 15, which is when you would of had to have started.

Your arguments are not based on experience, but on the propaganda that you have been exposed to, which is fine, but the counter arguments are coming from people with real life experience who are explaining why things are as they are.

Sampling your youtube videos, I was honestly unable to watch too far through any of them, you are a young wanna be. That's perfectly fine, we were all there at one time, but most of us came to the bigger horse world with the attitude of "I'm young, I know little, please share your knowledge"

Horse people can be the most generous folks around, if you are humble enough to admit you don't know, people will try and help, or explain WHY they do things. You of course will always come up against the issue that any 3 horsemen together will have at least 5 different opinions on how to do something, and this is where experience comes in, you try stuff and find out what works.

I now know for a fact, after 40 odd years:

Shoes are evil, every horse should be barefoot, apart from those who need shoes, because they suffer without them.

Mild bits can be abusive, abusive looking bits can be mild, it depends on how the rider uses them. A bit is like a gun, an inert piece of metal until a person decides to employ it, and that employment can be for good or evil.

Every horse can live without a rug/blanket outside all the time, apart from those who need to be stabled 24 hours, or 12 hours and need a pile of blankets.


I could go on, seriously what have I learned in 40 years:

Listen to the feedback from the horse, have a few trusted people,who you take advice from, preferably from different disciplines, and listen and learn lots, when you speak ask questions.


----------



## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

Welp, if it worked for Ginny I bet it works for all the other horses in the world! Regardless of age, gender, breed, discipline trained, rider, and background. Case closed! 

>.>


----------



## womack29 (Oct 30, 2011)

There will always be controversy on this subject. I trail ride a TWH and ride her in a Robarts pinchless gaited horse bit. I tried a bitless brildle and it was not what worked for her. She hated it tossed her head she is much happier in a bit.


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

I never said all horses did I? No. I said Ginny. I know I have a lot to learn and I do that whenever I can. I have started 18-20 horses some of which I am still working on, some were sold before I could finish them, all are backed and rideable.


----------



## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Lol you are welcomed to try to trail ride my arab bitless. You have to sign a liability waiver and have health insurance. I can guarantee my horse will be home before you. Trust me, i leave a dent in her barn sour nose on the way home. In a bit a suddenly have the smoothest western pleasure horse with a jog to die for, not the prancing arab who is looking straight in the air, hopping and tossing her head angrily (this happened this weekend -_-').


----------



## Rideordie112 (Dec 7, 2013)

madyasmkey said:


> I know I have a lot to learn and I do that whenever I can. I have started 18-20 horses some of which I am still working on, some were sold before I could finish them, all are backed and rideable.


I really doubt you've started and finished 
18-20 horses when you're so close minded to 
What others have to say.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

madyasmkey said:


> I never said all horses did I? No.



Really? This vv is from your first post


madyasmkey said:


> *all horses *are better off without a bit.



Now, what were you saying? :?

Sweetie, until you get over your superiority complex, you're never going to amount to much in the horse world.

Come back and talk to me about how to train a horse and what gets better results with "all horses" when you've trained a few hundred more and have _actual _experience to fall back on, okay?


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Now I am curious, are you from a horsey family, are these 18 -20 horses ones that they have bought in?

Maybe people have been handing over their horses to you, in which case still gotta be wealthy because you won't want to be paying board on them?

Or is there a local riding school who buys in young, untrained stock, and throws anyone on them in lessons until they can be described as 'broke' and sold on.


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

I was referring to my comment on the previous page about a small experiment I did. No, I don't have a horsey family and non of the horses I have backed I have been paid for. A few were from my old livery yard where one was sold before I could finish and the others are used in the riding school because they wanted me to produce a pony like my horse. And the other ones are all my friend who buys wild horses, we back them together and work them until they are sold. Few of the horses I back are shown before they get sold, they are just prepared for going to shows.


----------



## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

So you've had the time to train 18-20 horses from start to almost finish, and you have a job to pay for all of them?
I don't know the child labor laws in the UK, but here you can only start working at 16. MAYBE 15, in some states. That's a lot to happen in a year.


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

I didn't get laid and I went to a friends to back all her horses, the person who sold me my horse. It's just what I have done since I was 13. I will work with several horses every day in the summer holidays, weekends and half terms. During the time I'm not there, the horses are turned out our have a little bit of work done. I pay nothing.


----------



## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

madyasmkey said:


> I didn't get laid




Unless I'm missing something I'm going to guess you meant paid?


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

MsBHavin said:


> Unless I'm missing something I'm going to guess you meant paid?


I'm simply dying here :rofl::rofl:


----------



## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

^ xD!!! I'm glad someone else caught that.

So... you went from no horse knowledge at 13 to breaking your friend's horses for free? And she let you? Or am I missing a set here?


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

Haha. I meant paid, and no, she has taught me almost everything I know, most her stallions, and foals are my projects now though.


----------



## Merlot (Sep 12, 2012)

Come on guys, we were all young once and I'm sure most of us expanded somewhat on our abilities - and as for being opinionated, well, when I was young if there was an opinion to be had I'd take it...and now, backed up by experience, I'm even worse. ;-)


----------



## speedy da fish (May 7, 2009)

madyasmkey said:


> *She doesn't resist me when she had the bit in, just the bridle.* She's fine working in the snaffle until I can try some other bridles and it was just dressage and schooling I struggle ke with it, I can easily change gait with it, but she seems to hey confused with changing gait and changing place within the gate in the biro less bridle and she losses concentration and focuses more on getting away from the pressure quickly rather than figuring things out.


Thing is, unless your horse is standing in her stable with her snaffle bridle on, resisting it then it is you using the bridle that she is resisting, not the bridle itself. 

I don't really know what you mean in the rest of this post but it sounds like you are overusing the bit anyway. Yes, you need a contact at all times but when changing gait and paces within the gate you use your legs and your butt, not your reins.


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

I meant to put bitless bridle that she was resisting. she was fine at first but has started to ignore it. She doesn't resist the bit. I hold my reins to get contact, not tight so she can't move, but enough so the reins aren't slack.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"She was fine at first but has started to ignore it."

That was my experience. I can ride Mia today in a sidepull, and there is a good chance she'll be fine...because she feels like it. But if something happens that scares her, or if she gets excited about something, then she feels free to ignore a sidepull. She is less likely to ignore a snaffle, but if she gets REALLY excited, then she will ignore a snaffle - and I've tried a lot. She does not ignore a curb bit of any kind.

Since I ride with slack in the reins, and try to avoid ever pulling far enough on the reins to engage the curb strap, she never builds up a tolerance for the curb strap. We might go a month without it ever engaging, and then have a 'bad day' where I'll pull that far 4-5 times. Then weeks without. My goal is to get her where it never engages because it is never needed.

The gentlest way to control your horse is the gentlest method the horse won't fight. Lots of horses will not fight a snaffle, but my trying to ride with contact - and doing it without finesse - taught Mia she could ignore it. It is a bad habit my hands taught her. Not a fault of the bit, but a fault of my hands.

As a training tool to teach her to overcome her fears, a curb bit has worked well. I'd like to get her back down to a snaffle, which means lots of riding and lots of practice stopping in a snaffle in an arena until she hopefully develops a habit of obeying in a snaffle that will result in my being able to control her in one even when she is afraid. 

I would eventually love to move her into a leather sidepull, because that would mean she had given up even more of her fears and was even more willing to listen to her rider - ie, a better trained horse! But that day may never come. She has an excellent memory, and she may always keep the option of ignoring a snaffle (or a sidepull) in the back of her mind. Since it does her no harm to carry a curb bit in her mouth, she may always be a curb bit horse - for her safety, and for mine. 

The gentlest option is the gentlest one your horse will respond to. And if you do not give release at the right time, any option can become one the horse will ignore. VS Littauer considered riding with constant contact to be what marked the difference between a beginner rider (and his definition of 'beginner' included many who have ridden for years) and intermediate riders. I would raise riding with constant contact as something an expert rider does rather than intermediate. In the recreational riding world, most riders would stay in Littauer's 'beginner' phase just because we don't ride for hours daily. 

It is easier to teach a strong willed horse how to evade and ignore a bit (or bitless bridle) than it is to teach them to respond well to one. Folks who ride 3-4 hours/week (me, for example) ought to follow Littauer's advice, and work on a level of control that matches their riding habit. IMHO.


----------



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

madyasmkey said:


> I meant to put bitless bridle that she was resisting. *she was fine at first but has started to ignore it.* She doesn't resist the bit. I hold my reins to get contact, not tight so she can't move, but enough so the reins aren't slack.


That right there tells me exactly where the problem is coming from. She's being taught how to ignore it by the way she's being ridden. Essentially, _you_ are teaching her how to ignore it.

Again, we are back to it being a training/riding issue instead of a tack issue.


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

see I rode every day for over an hour. I was working on an outline in canter today and die to lacking mutable she struggled. So as soon as I got her head on and off the forehand, I let go. She figured it out much quicker because I gave release with Jay the littlest response. It was hard bottles though because there was no pain and therefore nothing that would make g net want to push through the less painful Muscular strain from holding an out line for a few strides.


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

sorry, Stirling on an outline was what I meant to say, don't know what came up. In banter (sure really argues about it and usually I give up from the pain cost, but I stuck to it)


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

madyasmkey said:


> ... I was working on an outline in canter today and die to lacking mutable she struggled. So as soon as I got her head on and off the forehand, I let go. She figured it out much quicker because I gave release with Jay the littlest response. It was hard bottles though because there was no pain and therefore nothing that would make g net want to push through the less painful Muscular strain from holding an out line for a few strides.


Sorry. I don't understand a single sentence of this post. However, I think very few riders have any business riding a horse 'in an outline'. When my horse wants to go heavy on the forehand in a canter, it is fine for me to bring her back a little by shifting my weight, or maybe lifting the reins a little with a curb bit to bring her head off the ground. It is also fine to turn her or get her busy thinking about something besides speed. But in the end, a shift in balance must come from her learning what I want and the pleasure of its feel, not from me holding her in an outline. 

It actually seems to involve things like leaving her feet a little longer on the ground, or adjusting her stride length, or how much power she uses to go forward vs how much she directs into the vertical - and none of that is controlled with the head. At least, not at my level of riding. Edward Gal can do what he wants, but bsms needs to live within his limitations!

If I wanted to create a horse who would blow thru a bit (or a bitless bridle), I can't think of a better way than riding them in a frame. I never did that with Mia, but I spent too much time trying to hold her speed back with the reins & a snaffle, which is why she now considers snaffles to be 'for advice only'. If I tried to put Mia in an outline, even for short times, I'm sure she would soon learn how to blow thru a curb bit.

This is one of the reasons bits get a bad name. People teach horses to ignore them, then use a bigger or harsher bit until they teach the horse to ignore THAT. They repeat the cycle until the horse is able to blow thru anything, even if it means bleeding.

All just IMHO as a recreational rider with about 5-6 years of riding.

May I suggest reading "Common Sense Horsemanship" by VS Littauer? It can be bought used online.


----------



## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

bsms said:


> If I wanted to create a horse who would blow thru a bit (or a bitless bridle), I can't think of a better way than riding them in a frame. I never did that with Mia, but I spent too much time trying to hold her speed back with the reins & a snaffle, which is why she now considers snaffles to be 'for advice only'. If I tried to put Mia in an outline, even for short times, I'm sure she would soon learn how to blow thru a curb bit.


Riding in a frame doesn't cause a horse to "blow through" anything. Heavy hands will do it, but you don't need hard hands to ride in a frame, and if you have them, you are doing it wrong.


----------



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Chiilaa, I think what BSMS is getting at is that riding on contact _incorrectly_ to get a frame will do nothing more than teach the horse how to brace and ignore the bit.

Coming from a non-english rider, I imagine that is likely one of the harder english lessons to learn...how to ride a horse on contact without getting into a tug-of-war with them.


ETA: Especially if you're thinking front to back instead of back to front...trying to use the bit/bitless to create the "frame" before impulsion is thoroughly achieved.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Harry Chamberlin has a chapter in his book on riding concerning putting a horse on the bit. IIRC, he said it wasn't a matter of heavy or light, but of knowing when to give release to the horse. You could use very light pressure, but failing to give release at the proper time would result in a horse who learned to ignore pressure.

Littauer's comments are: "_Soft contact is obtained by the legs urging the horse forward on the bit; not pulling on the reins...the horse...thus establishes contact between his mouth and the rider's hands...

...the horse may not play his and begin to lean on the rider's hands, usually increasing his pace...That is where 'give and take' comes in._" - pgs 172-173

I like his comment that when it is done right, THE HORSE establishes contact.

This is totally contrary to putting a horse in an outline. There is a world of difference between teaching the horse to desire soft contact, and putting a horse 'in a frame'. Those words too often describe what I see in videos of English riding, with the rider and horse bracing against each other via the reins, and a horse who ceases to care about the rider's hands.

No, that is not good English riding - but the frequency of horses evading the bit and the frequency with which one hears of a rider putting a horse into a frame suggests it happens far too often. And as a rider of 5+ years who started at 50 and is largely self-taught, I think it is far too easy to mistake 'light' for 'responsive', and it is responsive that makes a horse's mouth seek contact. At least, that is my guess. I tried 'light', and without responsive, it did not work worth squat!

I cannot speak for others, but 'putting a horse in a frame' and 'in an outline' do not bring up connotations of 'responsive, expressive hands inviting contact'. Nor did the videos of the OP's riding bring to mind adjectives like 'responsive', 'yielding' or 'understanding'. As I wrote previously:

"_At least, not at my level of riding. Edward Gal can do what he wants, but bsms needs to live within his limitations!_" I don't think my limitations as a rider are as rare as my acceptance of my limitations. :evil:


----------



## Fort fireman (Mar 5, 2011)

madyasmkey said:


> I never said all horses did I? No. I said Ginny. I know I have a lot to learn and I do that whenever I can. I have started 18-20 horses some of which I am still working on, some were sold before I could finish them, all are backed and rideable.


I'm sorry, I'm having a hard time believing that you started riding at 13, are now 16 and have started 18-20 horse and finished some. That is a grand total of 36 months. That is starting a new horse ever 2 months, roughly. I know professionals that don't maintain that pace. And have been doing it a majority of their life. I think I need to throw the BS flag on the play. Sorry.


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

No. I started riding when I was 4. I started backing horses at 13. I did most while I was working with Ginny at the same time because I was up there more often than not. I also received a lot of project from my livery yard.

Also, as for the outline, I was simply holding the reins and pushing her forward, she was confused and was jumping on her hind legs with her head on the air but eventually, I got one side of her in an outline off the forehand and I let go of the reins completely before we broke the contact and it would be too late. Whereas if I did it with the cooks bridle, it wouldn't loosen off straight away and take longer to give release. I then repeated it and after doing 6-7 times, I didn't give her release straight away and she held it with a light contact and after 4 strides, I have her her head and cooled her down.


----------



## HollyBubbles (Jun 22, 2009)

Now I'm confused... Are you for or against bitted bridles today?


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

I still don't like bits, never will. If I find a bitless bridle that will get the same response as a bit for dressage, showjumping and cross country, then I'll get it. But until then, I get the right results from a bit. I don't like bits, but they work, as long as I keep my hands light and my options open to trying different bridles, I'll find one eventually.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

".._.as for the outline, I was simply holding the reins and pushing her forward, she was confused and was jumping on her hind legs with her head on the air but eventually, I got one side of her in an outline off the forehand..._"

I don't claim to be a horse trainer, but this really doesn't sound too good to me. One side in an outline? And thus off the forehand? If you don't want to read Littauer, may I suggest looking up the dressage training scale on line, or searching the dressage subforum for ideas on teaching a horse collection.


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

I've done lots of research on getting an outline, I didn't try on the right hand side because I was exhausted, she got the outline I asked her for and the technique I used is what a lot of riders use to make the horse give to pressure rather than seesawing their mouth and making their head Bob up and down every time you stop because they put their heads down.


----------



## Rideordie112 (Dec 7, 2013)

With proper training, and riding from the back to the front, collection will come. You shouldn't have to be pulling or see sawing. Most of it's in your legs and seat. There's more to collection than just having a horse put his head down.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

I was getting her collect by pushing her forward and holding her back so she brought her back end under her and was working from behind. Most use a lunging tool to teach them this and you can't use your seat or anything there, I was using my legs and seat to push her forward like the persoa had the rope behind their bum to make them tuck under and then the reins to stop then from galloping away. I don't have a persoa so I can't do it on the ground so I did the same via riding her. My technique want wrong as many English riders do the same thing just with equipment so they don't have to sit through the tantrums and bucks, just hold them.


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Rideordie112 said:


> With proper training, and riding from the back to the front,* collection will come*.


This, you don't train collection, it is developed....

I just got my butt kicked for worrying to much about the front end and not enough about developing the engine. It is also not something easily developed by reading books, being as it is all about timing, I find it invaluable to have someone there just backing up what I am feeling.


----------



## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

madyasmkey, you may want to work on your explanation skills if you want to go into the field of training.


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

Is easier to explain face to face than on the Internet. I get results from my house because she wants to work my me. My ways of getting results may not be how others do it but that doesn't make it wrong. If people always do something because it's the norm, no-one will ever improve.


----------



## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

Do you mean you are riding with one rein? If you are, inside or outside rein?

As I work on collection, my horse has not offered to buck or throw a tantrum. There is an issue somewhere in this horses' training....like, someone taking shortcuts in training and not wanting to dedicate the time it takes to develop a strong solid foundation which will pay dividends the higher one goes in training.


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

madyasmkey said:


> Is easier to explain face to face than on the Internet. I get results from my house because she wants to work my me. My ways of getting results may not be how others do it but that doesn't make it wrong. If people always do something because it's the norm, no-one will ever improve.



I hope you are more careful with your communications face to face, again, from everything you have posted here you need to slow down and proof read what you are saying, because I and others struggle to understand. What is the issue here? Is it that you are posting from a mobile/cell phone, and auto correct hates you, if that is the case, then proof read and try and make it better. Maybe you have an issue, some form of word blindness, which is OK, but then you still need to, in fact even more you need to check what you are posting.

While it is quite true that your way MAY not be wrong, in most dealings with horses there is more than one right answer, at the same time there are things that are plain WRONG. Horsemanship has developed over 1000's of years, and I am sorry the chances of one (by evidence shown here) uneducated teenager with delusions of being a trainer has found something new and revolutionary is very very unlikely. The chances are that you are doing it very very wrong.

To gain kudos for 'your' method, it is best to do your apprenticeship, ride with the masters, learn everything that those who CAN will show you. Then when you have mastered the classical traditions, or at least the well accepted methods, THEN and only then can you look with knowledge and say, yes my way will work, and I will develop my ideas.

At the risk of getting myself into trouble, but because I am passionate about this, PLEASE complete your education, find a place and a way to do it. Listen at 13 years of age my son HATED school with a passion, and it hated him back to be honest, I got a report card saying basically "buy this boy a broom, he will only ever be a street sweeper" We were lucky, we had the option to send him to Brymore School, where they taught everything through farming, it meant that he was with other kids with similar interests, and he was keen to learn. He eventually went on to take a degree, and now he has a real high flying job, earning a high wage. If he hadn't of stuck with it, he would have maybe ended up sweeping the streets.

So again, I get that you love horses, you are a teenager who thinks they know everything and want to change the world, LOL EVERY teenager hates their life and wants to change the world at some point. Go to college, learn how to do things, as everyone says it wont be like school, especially if you go with a positive attitude. Go to a college and do an Equine related course, and then decide what you want to do.


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

I'm not saying it's going to change everything and is not necessarily right, nor is it wrong. It was a way that was suggested to me and out of everything I have done, it works the best. The reason she throws tantrums is because she got out of it that way before but this time I said no, so she blew it up out of proportion. I kept my position and hands as still as I could and she have up. 

I'm not going to college or sixth form. It costs let £400 a term to pay for bus fair to the only college that has anything to do with horses. We can't afford that. There are plenty apprenticeships offering accommodation, and for me to take my horse and I still get my BHS exams paid for and NVQs for free, yet get paid on top. I'm not staying in school or college. I don't care how different it is, it's not different enough.


----------



## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

What I was trying to explain is that people won't feel comfortable with someone who cannot accurately describe their methods.

When I had help training my filly, I wanted to know every step that she was doing, and why she was doing it. So I could not only mimic her, but also get a firm understanding as to /why/ she was doing everything. 
I wouldn't hand my horse off to someone who's methods work because my horse "wants to work with them"


----------



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

*walks away to go have a more productive discussion with a brick wall*


----------



## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

Wait for me ;-;


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Is it a long wall?


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

If I was fave to face with someone, I could do that. My horse does want to work for me, but most don't. Including a horse that had been backed but learnt to throw riders. She bucked me off twice, and she had no intention of working for me. So I worked solely on the ground and went through the process of backing her again. Same with Rocky, he didn't want to work at all and took a lot of well thought out planning and understanding his body language, again the same with Flo, Lily and many other horses that have been trained by me. They eventually want to work for me because it's easier than not. I can't explain every step I take when training aye I've done it, because it would take years. I could explain what I do at the time because I would be able to think about what I am doing and why I do it. Thinking back I might not think something I had done as a little step and renege that tiny step, just the big step up that those little steps lead to. Like the flying change. 
To get the flying change I'd have to teach the horse to first change it's bend when I ask him to. Then I'd have to practise the transitions from walk to trot, walk to canter, canter to walk, canter to trot, trot to canter ect... Once that is done I'd trot, walk, change the bend and trot again, eventually I'd do the same in canter, down to walk, change the bend and ask for canter again once the walk is collected and balanced. I would not being the horse to trot from canter and ask them to change the bend and pick up the other lead because then it is easier for the horse to fall out of canter, into trot and back to canter before many riders can respond. 

That is just the explanation to do a flying change, if I wrote that for everything I did on my horse to explain to someone what I'm doing it would take much longer; be much harder than saying it.


----------



## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

Or a thick wall?

Again, when you are using one rein, is it the inside, or outside rein?


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

I don't ride with one rein. Unless I'm in a halter.


----------



## Rideordie112 (Dec 7, 2013)

Yay! I love talking with walls..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jimmyp (Sep 5, 2013)

madyasmkey,

I certainly hope for your sake, none of your perspective clients, or any of the barns where you have applied for apprenticeship come onto this forum.....

You my dear have a lot of growing to do.

Off to the wall myself.

Jim


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

Why don't you go to the wall of China, at least then you won't be bugging me.


----------



## jimmyp (Sep 5, 2013)

thank you dear for proving my point......

Jim


----------



## morganarab94 (May 16, 2013)

jimmyp said:


> thank you dear for proving my point......
> 
> Jim


:rofl:


All I have to say about the OP is I really really hope that none of your clients OR anyone that is trying to hire you ever reads this..:-| You have been given some very valid and knowledgeable advice and you've shot it all down....


----------



## HollyBubbles (Jun 22, 2009)

morganarab94 said:


> :rofl:
> 
> 
> All I have to say about the OP is I really really hope that none of your clients OR anyone that is trying to hire you ever reads this..:-| You have been given some very valid and knowledgeable advice and you've shot it all down....


Personally I also hope that the clients of the OP never get told to go to the wall of china so they can stop bugging the OP.... Clients can be just as, if not MORE frustrating than people on the internet giving you legitimate advice, and clients can just as easily pay no attention whatsoever to your "expertise" just as you are doing to others on this forum. They can also get very rude, and it will frustrate you to absolutely no ends, believe me.. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt..


----------



## morganarab94 (May 16, 2013)

^ I totally agree. The horse world is huge, and there are a lot of people on this forum....Personally I would never send my horse to someone like the OP even if she was a top notch trainer because her attitude isn't very pleasant...


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

madyasmkey said:


> ...My ways of getting results may not be how others do it but that doesn't make it wrong. If people always do something because it's the norm, no-one will ever improve.


Yes and no. The US Air Force distinguishes between techniques and procedures. A technique is a good way of doing things, but there may be 20 good ways of doing that thing.

A procedure, however, is something that is mandatory, as in "Do not turn the radar to transmit within 500 feet of explosives". It is mandatory because turning the radar to transmit can detonate the explosives, killing anyone nearby.

There are a lot of techniques in training horses, but there are a few procedures - or darn close to being procedures. If you train for collection by kicking the horse to make the rear go faster while pulling on the reins to make the front go slower, an explosion is likely to result! There really are things in riding that work so well or so badly as to be mandatory.

If you wish to ignore my advice, have a nut. I'm quite eccentric in my theories of riding. But some of the folks posting on this thread have a ton of experience. If they say you are screwing something up...you are.

I'm often thought of as being anti-dressage, although I don't know why people think that. I have different riding goals, but I respect dressage as a sport and as a practice. If you don't want to read Littauer's book on forward riding, consider reading some dressage books. Post a thread on the dressage sub-forum and ask for books on training a horse in the basics of dressage. If nothing else, go to the dressage sub-forum and start reading threads, from the top on down.

Some food for thought:


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

To be honest I don't think you can have procedures with horses. With procedures, there's no room for improvement. Whereas with horses there is always room for improvement. 

Though English is my strong point in school. I don't vary my tone and always come across as quite harsh and abrupt in what I put. Still, it gets me an A. I don't put things how I should and I don't vary my tone in my writing as how I write now is very much for an english essay. Not writing to people trying to explain my point. 

Bits in general aren't great for horses. While all horses would be better off, if they could easily be ridden without any rubbing on the nose and without discomfort, without a bit. This is the same principle with bits but I think a long Tom thumb bit with hard heavy hands would do more damage than a well fitting Hackamore would. Same with a snaffle bit would do more damage than a halter. However, once you get a horse to ignore the reins bitless, there's not much you can do. Whereas if you get a horse to ignore the snaffle, you can just put a bigger bit in. My point is that a horse should start off without a bit and work up to them. Only when they respond exactly how you want in a halter should they go into a snaffle. It shouldn't be "Oh, that doesn't work, I'll put a bigger bit in" and I myself have been the biggest coppery for coming to those conclusions. I rode a horse at the cross country once and it took off with me in a snaffle so my first thought was to put a French gag in. 

However, what should be done is I should have worked with him in the school in the snaffle and got him to listen to it better before I'd go putting a bigger bit in because otherwise, as bsms said, "they'll blow through anything" eventually. 

I feel bits shouldn't be the first fix to everything and in fact they should be tools used with care. Though it's better to use a harsh bit and not at all touch it than a halter and pull constantly. Would it not be better to be able to control your horse in whatever you put them in and only use certain bits to refine for certain competitions like a tom thumb bit for barrel racing or curb. Our a Pelham for dressage. Then when you want to go for a nice relaxing walk on a hack you can just get them out the field and put a sale on. Then your ready. Not having to worry about putting a bit in and then if you want to tie them up or let them eat, you don't need to take a chance by changing their head collars for a bridle or bridle for had collar and have the possibility of them spooking just as they have nothing on their head and the run of with it around their necks. Would it not be easier and more rewarding if you can know for a fact that with all the hips and hard work it would take that you can ride your horse in what ever bit or nobit you want? 

And yes. I think if everyone had the time to spend working on their horse to do it that every horse could do it.


----------



## HollyBubbles (Jun 22, 2009)

I do agree with your statement being "It shouldn't be Oh, that doesn't work, I'll put a bigger bit in" that is correct, that issue is a training issue, and while a stronger bit may be a temporary fix, it is not an answer.. Though honestly, I have had a horse run through a snaffle, and instead of putting a stronger bit in, I put a softer one in.. A rubber mullen mouth to be exact, she worked wonderfully in it.

From what I understand, I think, are you trying to say that horses should be versatile enough and trained well enough to go however we ask them in whatever equipment we use? That's what i'm getting from that, in which case yes I agree.

The one thing I still don't agree on in that post is that every horse could do it if we had the time to spend working on our horses... Most horses, yeah sure they could probably do it, whether or not they like it they could physically do it... However there are still some cases where bitless will not and can not suit the horse no matter how much time, care and training has been put in... My gelding I could train to ride bitless, he wouldn't like it a whole lot, but I could make him do it... My mare on the other hand, who has poll issues, and struggles with the concept of a noseband, will not ever be ridden bitless, because (and please correct me if i'm wrong) but bitless tends to rely mostly on poll pressure, right? She.Freaks.Out. she has had a less than fortunate past, and unfortunately it has taken me little over a year just to get her to tie up without having a freak out episode as soon as she feels any pressure on her poll, to start with, she would do anything and everything to get loose, but her panic means that she doesn't realise that stepping forward would release the pressure on her poll.. and that is just in a halter, it has taken a whoooole lot of work to get that far with her, and several injuries to myself in her blind panicking. I have worked her from the ground up, and now, apart from her separation anxiety (working on it) she is pretty good in most things, and loves being ridden, but there is no way I will put a bitless bridle on her, for fear of having her relapse into her panic as soon as any poll pressure, or pressure on the noseband is made.

And if I need to change between a bridle and a halter out of the comfort of my paddock, I put the headpiece of the halter on first, leaving the nosepiece off, and then take the bridle off and put the nosepiece of the halter on, all the time having a hold of the leadrope, not once have I had a loose horse by doing this and even if they do freak out, they stop within several seconds of realising they can't escape and will stand nicely


----------



## Rideordie112 (Dec 7, 2013)

Anything I put in my horses mouth (or even a halter) I can control him in it. I have no need to switch bits all the time. 
He's trained well enough that I can leave him standing with nothing on his head and he won't move
All I need is a snaffle, and that's fine for me
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

I've found with a halter it puts the pressure on the nose rather than the poll. Bridles however are all about poll pressure (the ones I've tried). They may not enjoy it, but it's still good to know that they'll do it, and if you are feeling lazy one day you can do. 

Of course there are extreme exceptions; if you had all day every day to spend with her I'm sure you'd eventually be able to reverse that fear she has. Don't get me wrong, no-one has that time to spend on one horse, but if that was my horse I'd have full weeks in half terms to spend and after the summer holidays if I did it prefecture and without fault I'd be able to do it (not just me, but anyone with the 6-7 weeks off in the summer holidays). I do spend all day every day with my horse in the holidays so I can ride her in anything, I just can't do everything in some of these tools. 

Again, I could probably see even if some did manage to stop her from getting freaked out by poll pressure, she'd need poll pressure every day just to reinforce that. (That's just a guess. Might not work even all day every day)

But I think horses that even may not enjoy it so much, could still be ridden in a halter or snaffle. 

And yes sometimes a lighter bit does the job too. 

My main point is that unless in extreme circumstances, someone should be able to give you a type of bridle of of a list you've worked with and you should be able to get on and do it.


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

Rideordie112 said:


> Anything I put in my horses mouth (or even a halter) I can control him in it. I have no need to switch bits all the time.
> He's trained well enough that I can leave him standing with nothing on his head and he won't move
> All I need is a snaffle, and that's fine for me
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Exactly, that's how it should work. I can do the same with Ginny. Although I can't get an outline from a rope halter, I can ask her to do what the equipment allows me to ask of and she'll do it.


----------



## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

Again, there are many organizations (at least here in the states, I don't know about in the UK) that DO NOT ALLOW BITLESS. Why would someone waste their time training a horse for a specific discipline with a piece of equipment (for an extended period of time) that they cannot use?


A person can abuse any piece of equipment. Have you seen the video with Linda Parelli that went viral a couple of weeks ago? She was hitting a horse in the face with a halter and lead. Have you ever seen someone misuse a stud chain? I certainly have.

In the horse world, it's really not possible to make blanket statements; "This is ALWAYS" better, because the fact of the matter is that that simply isn't true. (Unless it's something like, 'a horse should always be fed xD')


----------



## Sahara (Jul 23, 2010)

madyasmkey said:


> I don't ride with one rein. Unless I'm in a halter.


Please, please, please take that internship at the training facility. You simply don't know what you don't know and that is freaking scary. This can only end one way and unfortunately any horse you touch is going to suffer from your ignorance and lack of horsemanship.


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

I wasn't saying you can compete bitless in America. My point is that wouldn't it be nice for both you and your horse that you can ride in anything? I think it is for the best if you build up from bitless and up from softer bits to harsher, but not through making them hard but through making them more responsive to each thing.


----------



## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

" All English competitions will accept bitless. It is not a rule."

^That's a quote from you earlier in the thread.

What would be the point of working a horse from a softer bit to a harsher one, if it's not necessary? Why not find something that works for your discipline, that works for your horse and you as a rider, and call it good?


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

My horse doesn't suffer. I'm not cruel by not riding with one rein. I may not do things the exact way you or someone else might like doesn't mean my horse or any other horse I ride will suffer. That is just a pain outright attack on me. Not once have I said that to someone because I'm not that harsh. 

If I were to ride with one rein it'd be my inside rein to ask for the bend and then my legs and body would control the gait. 

But I haven't done it. Doesn't mean she's suffered from it.


----------



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

madyasmkey said:


> Why don't you go to the wall of China, at least then you won't be bugging me.


Okay, this will be my very last post here, but I wanted to address the attitude you've got.

I'm losing absolutely nothing by taking the knowledge I gained over the last 25 years riding and 15 years of training more horses than you've likely seen in your life and walking away from this thread. The only one suffering from my choice to walk away and stop sharing what knowledge I (and others who have posted here and been sandbagged by your "holierthanthou" attitude) have is _you_.

I am on this forum to share in the lives of friends that live too far away to see in person and help those with less knowledge and experience than I have. Do I know everything? I'd be an idiot to assume that I even came close. Every day I have the privilege to ride horses that are perfectly willing to remind me just exactly how much I _don't_ know. Because I've ridden and trained a few hundred horses in my lifetime, I have enough experience to back up everything that I say. I also am humble enough to straight up tell someone if I don't know what they are asking about. I often post in the english riding section or on training threads for training english horses. I almost always preface those posts by stating that I am a western rider, but here's my take on the issue and here's how I would address it.

Unless it is one of those "universal truths" that BSMS was talking about, I don't tell anyone that they are wrong for doing things different than the way I do them. 

If you had enough real experience, you'd know that there is no "most horses would be better off with....". Some horses do well bitless, others don't. It's about working with the horse to find out what works best for _them_, as _individuals_. 

The only road to success in horses is to completely drop any preconcieved notion of what would be best for them in regards to tack. Every horse is different, their preferences differ from each other just like humans. What works best for one won't work best for another. 

That's the exact reason why most real horsemen and trainers have a tack room full of dozens, if not hundreds, of different styles and types of bits and hackamores. That way, they can figure out exactly what the _horse_ likes best instead of just deciding "well, he would be better off in <this>", even if the horse indicates otherwise.

So I'll say again. I lose absolutely nothing from taking my knowledge and leaving. You, my dear, are the one who lost. You lost access to knowledge that most aspiring trainers your age would kill to hear. I don't know everything, but I didn't spend all those years working with a professional trainer, riding hundreds of horses, and training some of the rankest rotten creatures you'd ever see to learn nothing.

With that, I'll wish you luck and tell you goodbye.


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

That's why I said in America. Not England. Everything I've done in England I can do bitless. 

Also, putting a horse straight into a harsh bit is asking for trouble. A horse not understanding what a certain command means in a soft bit won't know with a harsher one. Just putting a harsh one straight in is not going to get any better results. I would much rather have my horse respond to everything I want her to up to the strongest bit that will get the exact results at her top training. For me and Ginny, that's the snaffle. If I was doing barrel racing, I'd probably be a curb. But no matter what discipline, they should be built up to a harsher bit and not because they ignore the softer ones.


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

smrobs said:


> Okay, this will be my very last post here, but I wanted to address the attitude you've got.
> 
> I'm losing absolutely nothing by taking the knowledge I gained over the last 25 years riding and 15 years of training more horses than you've likely seen in your life and walking away from this thread. The only one suffering from my choice to walk away and stop sharing what knowledge I (and others who have posted here and been sandbagged by your "holierthanthou" attitude) have is _you_.
> 
> ...


That's nice. Setting as you won't be coming on this post again there's no point in me saying anything else to you.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_To be honest I don't think you can have procedures with horses. With procedures, there's no room for improvement. Whereas with horses there is always room for improvement._"

The point of a procedure is that failing to follow it results in bad things happening. And yes, there are a LOT of things you can do on a horse that will have bad results darn near every time...such as "_getting her collect by pushing her forward and holding her back_". And if you do those bad things, and your horse then pushes thru the bit, going to a bigger and harsher bit will only teach the horse to push thru the bigger and harsher bit.

There is usually more than one RIGHT way, but there most definitely are some really rotten ways that should be avoided. As an example, my son in law was taught to break a horse by first cutting back their food until they are 100-150 lbs underweight because 'they won't be able to buck hard that way'. Can we all agree that is a horrible way? Or should we pretend that is one of many good training methods?

"_Whereas if you get a horse to ignore the snaffle, you can just put a bigger bit in._"

ARGGHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"_Only when they respond exactly how you want in a halter should they go into a snaffle._"

I guess the majority of the horse world does it the reverse because we're all stupid and need a 16 year old to point out the truth to us. Used correctly, a bit COMMUNICATES - and training is about communicating with the horse. It IS possible to go the route you describe IF you are good at training horses. But most horses I've met who ride well in a bitless bridle or halter first learned what their rider wanted with the help of a bit.

"_like a tom thumb bit for barrel racing_"

Most barrel racers don't choose a tom thumb. The problems with a western tom thumb bit are not erased by barrel racing...

"_Although I can't get an outline from a rope halter_"

Then please ride her in a rope halter until you learn what collection is and how to train for it. Better still - give up training horses for a few years. Someone who is "_getting her collect by pushing her forward and holding her back_" should not be trying to teach the world how to train a horse!


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

Okay, and as for my attitude, I'd like to say that no-one else has been much better. From the start of the thread is all the sarcastic comments and attacking me personally. I have partially changed my view on bits and I didn't word my start of the thread very well. I posted this to find out people's views on bits and bitless. Since I've been using bitless, I've found the cooks bridle doesn't give release as quick as a bit or halter does because the friction between the leather and the rings prevent instant release. 

I do feel that a harsher bit shouldn't be the first conclusion people come to when they make them hard to the mouth in a softer one because then it's the riders fault. 

Still, I think you should be able to ride your horse in anything you put them in without massive issues (depending on the horse) but I refuse to think that every person who uses a bit has a special horse that does terrible. Though yes some do not work at all bitless or in certain bits, but some have never tried or spent enough time to claim that. It's like saying "my young horse can't be ridden" for some with real medical issues that mean you cannot ride them, some will say it because when they had a sale on the first time they have up. Yet while that would be pointed out to not trying, the same can be for bits but less people are less willing to say that it's because you can't be bothered to try it. 

I'm quite happy to say I can't be bothered to teach my horse to stand while I get on. It could dealt be done if I put the effort in, I chose not to. 

There's a difference between can't and won't. I can't believe that everyone in a bit can't ride without one, and I though I love it if every horse could be ridden bitless without issues or rules saying outbreaks it won't happen. That for a fact is impossible. 

Yet while everyone is saying I'm unwilling to try new things or listen to new things how many of you would try riding in a halter for 2 months. If you have No other option to ride in anything else, you'd make it work. 

If I felt Ginny would do dressage better if I put her in a double bridle, as much as I wouldn't like it, if I could work better in it I'd use it. But I wouldn't start a horse in the double bridle, I'd prepare them for it.


----------



## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Well op I REALLY hope no one sees this. I have dealt with a horse that "Never had a bit in her mouth" and after her almost killing us I put a bit in her mouth. My mare has more issues bitless then with a bit. As I have already said, If I ride in a bitless bridle or in a halter, I leave a painful divot in her nose from fighting her. I have ridden bitless a handful of times and she now has white hairs. With a bit, she can be controlled. If bitless works for your, good for you. But not all horses can go bitless (my mare ran through it and almost into traffic when I first got her).

I would NEVER let you ride my mare. I don't do forced frames, she had learnt to keep her head down after we do some flexing at a stop. She now stretched down all on her own. Did I crank her mouth in? No. In a bitless I have to deal with her tossing her head, fighting me and wanting to bolt because she DOESN'T LIKE IT ( I learnt to ride cutters so I ride with a loose rein). I have gotten better rides out of her with just a leather strap in her mouth with reins, than with a "bitless".

Also you should really be nice to the people on this forum. There are people from every state in the US, and Every country with internet on this forum. Word spreads little girl, and you best remember your manners. For all you know a client, boss or whomever you want to intern with, might get their hands on this post. When that happens, you cannot say we did not warn you.


----------



## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

IF i had nothing but a halter to ride in i would NOT leave the arena. My mare is sweet as can be, but she is a 19 year old arab with HOT breeding and thinks she is 6 (and looks it). If she is worked up, she can run for over a mile and want to keep going. And if she wants to go home, I better be able to stop her. If she is having a good day i CAN ride her well in a halter, and sometimes do (Ill do two rain but with my rope side pull under the bridle). And sometimes I can't because I KNOW she is going to at least try to bolt once or twice.


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

bsms said:


> "_To be honest I don't think you can have procedures with horses. With procedures, there's no room for improvement. Whereas with horses there is always room for improvement._"
> 
> The point of a procedure is that failing to follow it results in bad things happening. And yes, there are a LOT of things you can do on a horse that will have bad results darn near every time...such as "_getting her collect by pushing her forward and holding her back_". And if you do those bad things, and your horse then pushes thru the bit, going to a bigger and harsher bit will only teach the horse to push thru the bigger and harsher bit.
> 
> ...


Better yet stfu and see the bigger point I'm making. I'm not saying I'm amazing and I can do all this, I'm saying that anyone that aspires to do anything with horses shouldn't just rely on the bit too control their horses because that isn't what is for. Whether you agree with how I asked for the outline, I got the response I wanted in just a few strides. It's not like I was doing laps and laps of it like that. She got quick release and whether you like it or not, it worked well and out of everything I've tried in getting an outline including holding a contact just enough to feel the reins and using smaller and bigger circles top get her head in she ignored it. This was a lot more direct and to the point and got it done. Just like your curb bit. It's harsher, but a few pops from it stopped Mia from bolting, in a softer bit that may not have happened as quick bit you'd still have been able to stop her eventually.


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

bsms said:


> "_To be honest I don't think you can have procedures with horses. With procedures, there's no room for improvement. Whereas with horses there is always room for improvement._"
> 
> The point of a procedure is that failing to follow it results in bad things happening. And yes, there are a LOT of things you can do on a horse that will have bad results darn near every time...such as "_getting her collect by pushing her forward and holding her back_". And if you do those bad things, and your horse then pushes thru the bit, going to a bigger and harsher bit will only teach the horse to push thru the bigger and harsher bit.
> 
> ...


Better yet stfu and see the bigger point I'm making. I'm not saying I'm amazing and I can do all this, I'm saying that anyone that aspires to do anything with horses shouldn't just rely on the bit too control their horses because that isn't what is for. Whether you agree with how I asked for the outline, I got the response I wanted in just a few strides. It's not like I was doing laps and laps of it like that. She got quick release and whether you like it or not, it worked well and out of everything I've tried in getting an outline including holding a contact just enough to feel the reins and using smaller and bigger circles top get her head in she ignored it. This was a lot more direct and to the point and got it done. Just like your curb bit. It's harsher, but a few pops from it stopped Mia from bolting, in a softer bit that may not have happened as quick bit you'd still have been able to stop her eventually.

And I don't do barrel racing so don't know what bit would be used for it, some kind of shank bit.


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

madyasmkey said:


> Okay, and as for my attitude, I'd like to say that no-one else has been much better. From the start of the thread is all the sarcastic comments and attacking me personally. I have partially changed my view on bits and I didn't word my start of the thread very well. I posted this to find out people's views on bits and bitless. Since I've been using bitless, I've found the cooks bridle doesn't give release as quick as a bit or halter does because the friction between the leather and the rings prevent instant release.
> 
> I do feel that a harsher bit shouldn't be the first conclusion people come to when they make them hard to the mouth in a softer one because then it's the riders fault.
> 
> ...


Thought I'd bump this post incase anyone doesn't see the previous page.


----------



## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

OP, you started this thread with a "holier than thou" attitude, and it has persisted through the thread. It doesn't get you far in the horse world, and it doesn't make people think very highly of you. 

Especially when, in another thread, you claim that "just because you're 16 doesn't mean you don't know anything".


----------



## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

madyasmkey said:


> Just like your curb bit. It's harsher, but a few pops from it stopped Mia from bolting, in a softer bit that may not have happened as quick bit you'd still have been able to stop her eventually.


Eventually.... meanwhile while bsms is stuck to a rather large cactus and Mia learned she can run through or lean on a bit.


----------



## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Well im done with the rudeness of a little girl. Mod anyone? Also You have been rude to VERY active and respected members of this forum. I hope you don't act like this when you are looking for a job.


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

KigerQueen said:


> IF i had nothing but a halter to ride in i would NOT leave the arena. My mare is sweet as can be, but she is a 19 year old arab with HOT breeding and thinks she is 6 (and looks it). If she is worked up, she can run for over a mile and want to keep going. And if she wants to go home, I better be able to stop her. If she is having a good day i CAN ride her well in a halter, and sometimes do (Ill do two rain but with my rope side pull under the bridle). And sometimes I can't because I KNOW she is going to at least try to bolt once or twice.


And again, not all horses can be ridden without a bit. My point about that sad that not everyone with a bitted horse can't be ridden without a bit. A lot of people just say their house can't when they haven't even tried it. I wouldn't want to ride your horse if you paid me. I love Arabs and they should be calm horses even with hot breeding. And yes they can go forever, but that doesn't mean that some people could say "Well because mine has Arab in it can't be ridden without a bit" and that's genuinely an excuse I've had before.


----------



## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

madyasmkey said:


> I'm quite happy to say I can't be bothered to teach my horse to stand while I get on. It could dealt be done if I put the effort in, I chose not to.


Well, this would be a huge deal breaker for me to ever think of you as a "trainer". Asking your horse to stand while you mount is a safety issue. 

Instead of putting so much effort here on this board arguing useless theories no one agrees with, put the effort into teaching your horse to stand while you mount.

Oh, and turn off auto correct and turn on spell check on your computer. Or better yet, buy a dictionary.


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

madyasmkey said:


> Thought I'd bump this post incase anyone doesn't see the previous page.


LOL, whatever, I think anyone who wants to see has seen, anyone who wants to respond had done so, and now we are all done.

Bottom line, my horse HATES my choice of bit 










I spent a lot of money on that bit and believe it to be a very mild snaffle.

This is his choice...










Who am I to argue


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

KigerQueen said:


> Well im done with the rudeness of a little girl. Mod anyone? Also You have been rude to VERY active and respected members of this forum. I hope you don't act like this when you are looking for a job.



Haven't exactly been very polite to me either? What on earth do people expect? "Oh thank you for say any horse that I touch will suffer. I appreciate it very much". No. If I hadn't had people stating that I was horrible to my horse or whatever they've said I'd be much happier being nice to people. If someone makes a valid argument that doesn't include insulting me in the same paragraph or post then I'm happy to reply nicely. Dealer when people have been nice I've been pretty nice back, but when people are horrible to me and make sarcastic comments I'm going to be the same


----------



## AnrewPL (Jun 3, 2012)

madyasmkey said:


> I think it is for the best if you build up from bitless and up from softer bits to harsher, but not through making them hard but through making them more responsive to each thing.


see this right here is the confusing bit (haha, see what I did there?) for me, why do you think that things aren't done like this in the first place? 
This is like a YouTube video I saw a few years ago. The video was about horses that were trained into a spade bit. Now spade bits are pretty big, they are heavy, the bar is relatively thin, compared to say the average curb bit, and, on a standard spade bit at least they are straight and have no tongue relief, they have the spoon in them and the braces, and they have chains dangling off them, and a lot of people automatically assume that they are uncomfortable for the horse, a harsh bit, or even cruel.

Anyway some know it all posted a pretty nasty comment on the video basically accusing the people in the video of being horse abusers because they ride in a spade bit. The commenter went on to say something to the effect of (I'm paraphrasing here) "You think you are so good? you think you can get a horse to do anything with that fancy piece of steel in its mouth that I couldn't without a bit???" and something about bits just being cruel.

the person making the comment, by making that comment in particular, demonstrated what an abject moron they were, not to mention what a conceited sanctimonious tool they were too. They demonstrated how ignorant they are, since anyone who knows even a little about the process of getting a horse straight up in the bridle with a spade bit can tell you that you do exactly what the commenter was waffling on about. All the training from day one, through, typically, a couple of years at least (for me more than a couple but then maybe I'm just a bit slow), is done entirely without a bit in the horse's mouth. Now some may utilise a snaffle here and there, some horses may need it, others not, personally I like to go all the way through in nothing but the bosal if I can, but the bulk of the training is done with no bit at all. So here is this YouTube commenter having a fit about how bad a spade bit is and how she (and it was a woman from Sweden if I remember correctly) could do it all without a bit, and I guess this meant that she was so much better than the husband and wife couple in the video.

kind of like your statement I have quoted above. You ask why shouldn't you be able to do anything with the horse you want without a bit, to ride in anything, and then why not train the horse and properly progress from softer to harsher bits. Now Ill leave aside the question of just what you mean by "harsher" and why you think that any bit should be "harsh" in the first place, but why do you simply assume that way you are presenting as a better way to do things is not what people already do and have been doing for centuries? 

You know, when you are 16 and you come up with a round object that rolls nicely, you might well think that you just invented the wheel, but sooner or later you'll come to realise that all you did was notice something people figured out thousands of years ago.

On another note, you were really a bit silly. You are trying to get into horse training in the UK, yet you carried on the way you did on this forum. You had the likes of Foxhunter here, who are well established professional trainers, who might have thrown you a bone or two, given you a contact for a possible job, one of them might have mentioned to a colleague that they had run across an eager prospect on a forum who they might look into, you had the chance to create a bit of network in an industry that, in comparison to others, is reasonably small and where people all, in a round about way, will know of everyone else. All you did was alienate people. It really is a shame, I hope for your sake that you can grow up a bit, your just going to make life hard for yourself like this.


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

COWCHICK77 said:


> Eventually.... meanwhile while bsms is stuck to a rather large cactus and Mia learned she can run through or lean on a bit.


Exactly, I got my horse to respond how I wanted without teaching her that she doesn't have to do it. My point was bsms uses a different bit and I used a different way to being what I asked for. The question I asked want wrong because I got the right answer.


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

AnrewPL said:


> see this right here is the confusing bit (haha, see what I did there?) for me, why do you think that things aren't done like this in the first place?
> This is like a YouTube video I saw a few years ago. The video was about horses that were trained into a spade bit. Now spade bits are pretty big, they are heavy, the bar is relatively thin, compared to say the average curb bit, and, on a standard spade bit at least they are straight and have no tongue relief, they have the spoon in them and the braces, and they have chains dangling off them, and a lot of people automatically assume that they are uncomfortable for the horse, a harsh bit, or even cruel.
> 
> Anyway some know it all posted a pretty nasty comment on the video basically accusing the people in the video of being horse abusers because they ride in a spade bit. The commenter went on to say something to the effect of (I'm paraphrasing here) "You think you are so good? you think you can get a horse to do anything with that fancy piece of steel in its mouth that I couldn't without a bit???" and something about bits just being cruel.
> ...


Okay. You have a very good point. I've not been very nice and I know that a lot of people are good trainers, riders ect... I haven't had any nice responses when I tried to explain what I meant and had a lot of very nasty comments about me personally. I don't try to offend people but I know a lot of comments made to me have been made to offend. I'm sorry that I may have offended people. Again, whilst I've tried to make my comments without getting personal as much as possible with everyone saying im bad for my horse, that really gets to me and I haven't meant anything if I've offended people and again, I'm sorry if I have done so. 

I don't like bits but have come to see that a lot of the time they can be better for horses. A


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_I'm saying that anyone that aspires to do anything with horses shouldn't just rely on the bit too control their horses because that isn't what is for._"

I haven't heard anyone here suggest slapping on a bigger bit to get control. Training with a different bit can be useful. I like a lot of western curb bits because they A) get out of the horse's mouth, and B) cannot be evaded in the same way a snaffle can. But they also need to be used in a different way than what caused the problem to begin with. I just bought a new western curb (which I snuck into the house when my wife was out), but if I used a western curb the same as I was using the snaffle, I would have ended up with the same result.

"_Whether you agree with how I asked for the outline, I got the response I wanted in just a few strides._"

But the result you got was not the result most riders would want. Most rider's value collection, not a headset.

"_out of everything I've tried in getting an outline including holding a contact just enough to feel the reins and using smaller and bigger circles top get her head in she ignored it_"

You got a headset. Those who value headsets can applaud. I'll refrain.

"_Just like your curb bit. It's harsher, but a few pops from it stopped Mia from bolting_..."

Mia had figured out that she could stretch her head out, slide the snaffle bit back into her teeth, and ignore the snaffle. Doing the same evasion in a curb bit had no effect because the bit design continues to apply pressure to the poll & jaw, even if the horse stretches her head out. There was probably less pressure in her mouth than with a snaffle and a pulley rein stop...but a western curb continues to apply pressure elsewhere. She simply could not evade the bit in the same way...up to a point.

However, if I had continued to ride her with constant and unresponsive contact, one that did not respond to her the way a good English rider does when riding on contact, she would have quickly learned to blow thru the curb. Horses learn to evade when humans fail to provide timely release via responsive hands. I've seen horses blow thru a curb even while their rider is pulling as hard as they can. Yes, a horse can gallop with pinned ears & gaping mouth, giving a bad name to bits....

The key with Mia was changing my style along with the change of bit, and training her to behave differently.

If I tried to collect Mia by pulling on the curb, I'd soon have a horse who would blow thru the curb. And now that Mia has gone a year+ that way, I'm beginning to reintroduce the snaffle...used in a western style. I'd like to someday work her down to a leather sidepull. Not because bits cause pain, but because it would mean she was paying more attention to my seat & legs.

When riding a horse, the goal should be to continually soften the horse. I tried using a rope sidepull with Mia when she was fearful, and going bitless at the wrong time with the wrong horse and wrong rider messed her up. Bad.

I don't use a hammer on screws or a screwdriver on nails. Pick the tool for the job, but soften the horse. And maybe it is just me, but 'frames' and 'one sided outlines' doesn't sound 'soft'...

"_I love Arabs and they should be calm horses even with hot breeding._"

I doubt Mia will ever be exactly 'calm'. She is an intensely interested horse, which is part of the fun of riding her.



COWCHICK77 said:


> Eventually.... meanwhile while bsms is stuck to a rather large cactus and Mia learned she can run through or lean on a bit.


That is exactly what would have happened if I hadn't changed my approach as well as the bit. If someone relies on a bit to cause pain to gain control, no bit will work for long...


----------



## Foxtail Ranch (Mar 10, 2012)

"I just bought a new western curb (which I snuck into the house when my wife was out), but if I used a western curb the same as I was using the snaffle, I would have ended up with the same result." Quote from BSMS



BSMS, I would love to see this new bit! Can you post a peek-ture? 

sorry for poor quality quoting...


----------



## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

madyasmkey said:


> Exactly, I got my horse to respond how I wanted without teaching her that she doesn't have to do it. My point was bsms uses a different bit and I used a different way to being what I asked for. The question I asked want wrong because I got the right answer.


I don't understand this well enough to respond.



bsms said:


> "_I'm saying that anyone that aspires to do anything with horses shouldn't just rely on the bit too control their horses because that isn't what is for._"
> 
> I haven't heard anyone here suggest slapping on a bigger bit to get control. Training with a different bit can be useful. I like a lot of western curb bits because they A) get out of the horse's mouth, and B) cannot be evaded in the same way a snaffle can. But they also need to be used in a different way than what caused the problem to begin with. I just bought a new western curb (which I snuck into the house when my wife was out), but if I used a western curb the same as I was using the snaffle, I would have ended up with the same result.
> 
> ...


Yes! I was going to edit my last post but ran out of time.(using the same analogy even! LOL)
When building a house you don't only use a hammer, you have a whole tool box full of tools.
Same with training horses, plenty of tools. 
Just because you change bits it doesn't mean that you have to us that bit for the rest of his life or keep upgrading to a "tougher" bit. I may use a bit for a couple of days, change the feel, change the thought process and then go back to what I was using before.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_BSMS, I would love to see this new bit!_"

fftopic:

OK...but do NOT tell my wife! Some guys hide their booze. I think my wife would be OK if I took up drinking, but she's has this strange, anti-bit fetish...thinks a few dozen bits for 3 horses is excessive. Women! They can be hard to understand sometimes. Why, just the other day, she asked me why we had 6 headstalls for 3 horses. What kind of question is that?!:shock:

It is like this, only the sides are plain SS. There are copper inlays in the mouthpiece.










I've heard horror stories about a single joint curb bit, but my bit buying - I mean, my research into bits - led me to conclude Mia dislikes tongue pressure. A single joint typically puts less pressure on the tongue than a double joint, and probably less than my Billy Allen bits. And besides, I can always attach my reins at the mouthpiece and have a nice standard snaffle, right?

Made sense to me, anyways, long enough for me to take it out of the store. Tried it yesterday...Mia moved it up and down in her mouth a few times, then acted fine with it for the rest of the ride. Behaved nicely and showed no confusion. She finished out the ride with ample saliva, no chewing on the bit and a relaxed look in her eye. I tried to see if it acted the way Mark Rashid wrote a Tom Thumb behaves, but it didn't. Not that I could tell, anyway. I stood next to her head and moved the reins all over, and there was no concern from Mia. Walked beside her & did the same. Since she seemed happy, I mounted and she rode fine.

OK...back to topic!


----------



## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

Oh boy just read through some of this thread:shock: Think people are wasting their breath she has it all figured out  Maybe she she post a video of herself showing how bitless training/riding works so we can all learn:lol:


----------



## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

madyasmkey said:


> I wasn't saying you can compete bitless in America. My point is that wouldn't it be nice for both you and your horse that you can ride in anything? I think it is for the best if you build up from bitless and up from softer bits to harsher, but not through making them hard but through making them more responsive to each thing.


This IS the accepted rule, nothing new there. People on the HF preach it every day on the "help! My horses won't stop" threads.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EquineObsessed (May 24, 2013)

OP, nobody has 'attacked' you. You will see lots of threads here started by people who know less, or have similar assumptions you do, but have been treated with far more respect. Why? Not because HF has randomly selected you for a Hunger Games like dual of horseman- because your posts do not demand respect. You ignore the people who have the most knowledge to offer. For future posts, ask more questions, and state less of what you think you know. You might learn a few things. I have noticed that you are at least writing in paragraphs and attempting to edit your thoughts. That is a small step in the right direction. A good, humble attitude would make a lovely follow up.


----------



## Fort fireman (Mar 5, 2011)

AnrewPL said:


> see this right here is the confusing bit (haha, see what I did there?) for me, why do you think that things aren't done like this in the first place?
> This is like a YouTube video I saw a few years ago. The video was about horses that were trained into a spade bit. Now spade bits are pretty big, they are heavy, the bar is relatively thin, compared to say the average curb bit, and, on a standard spade bit at least they are straight and have no tongue relief, they have the spoon in them and the braces, and they have chains dangling off them, and a lot of people automatically assume that they are uncomfortable for the horse, a harsh bit, or even cruel.
> 
> Anyway some know it all posted a pretty nasty comment on the video basically accusing the people in the video of being horse abusers because they ride in a spade bit. The commenter went on to say something to the effect of (I'm paraphrasing here) "You think you are so good? you think you can get a horse to do anything with that fancy piece of steel in its mouth that I couldn't without a bit???" and something about bits just being cruel.
> ...


Which video was it? I thought I've seen all the spade bit horse videos on youtube.:lol: Thats my futre goal, someday, maybe, eventually, if I'm ever good enough. Don't hate me OP but this is my goal.:lol:


----------



## Merlot (Sep 12, 2012)

True collection takes years to develop.
You have to DEVELOP the muscles of the horse in order for him to hold himself into collection and this is NOT done through riding through the reins.
This is much like a gymnast, you work with exercises that develop balance and tone through the rear of the horse so he can carry more of his weight on his hind and less on the front.
Unfortunately there is so much BAD 'dressage' out there which consists of 'trainers' (who should no better) telling pupils to hold with the hand and push from behind (and if necessary use side reins or other gadgets when lunging (eek)) and then whalla, somehow you magically have a 'collected horse'. WRONG.
What you have is a horse who falls out behind and has an over bent neck. You develop a horse who moves crookedly and tensely because he is forced into a position he is not ready for. The horse is trying to avoid the inevitable pain.
Think of it like this.
If I wanted you to to learn to do a backflip and I found a contraption that held your back bent at the right angle to achieve this, then took you to a hill and pushed you down it while wearing your backflip contraption - well, yes you would be doing backflips down the hill, but, would you be doing them with grace, control and above all, comfort? 
I doubt it.
Never force an outline. Get help from people who who really do know what they are talking about. If you want to do 'classical dressage', read books by Sylvia Loch.
;-)


----------



## madyasmkey (Jan 26, 2014)

Well now I've taught her and shown her what she needs to do, I have hardly any rein contact, yet she collects. She doesn't have an over crooked neck and doesn't fall out behind. She's very good at using her hind end, just didn't have the muscles to hold her neck in that position. But now she has the memory of what to do, she can go in an outline for a while and I'll give her a rest before she can't hold it any more.


----------



## AnrewPL (Jun 3, 2012)

Fort fireman said:


> Which video was it? I thought I've seen all the spade bit horse videos on youtube.:lol: Thats my futre goal, someday, maybe, eventually, if I'm ever good enough. Don't hate me OP but this is my goal.:lol:


cant remember what it was called, just a sort of news piece about some spade bit people and the people the video focused on were an older couple, Ill see if I can find it. It was about three years ago that I saw it but Ill see if I can track it down for you.


----------



## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Outline is not the word i would use. Collection is learned, not forced into the appearance of. I cannot force my mare into a "frame" as she 1, cannot hold it, and 2, will dump my sorry rear on the ground for trying. She is learning on her own, she is now willing to slow her trot so i can sit, she is stretching down at all gaits, and we have finally got somewhere with side passing moving the shoulder and turning on the haunches. She is an older horse who for the first time is being asked to balance, not just go as fast as she possibly can down a paved road. Will she ever reach collection before she passes? Maybe, do I care, as long as she is happy then no. I dont show so she can move what ever way suits her. And if I do, it will be something my horse can and wants to do, not what I want to do. You should not have to force your horse to do anything, but pay attention and listen, and that should only be for a short while until they learn. Forcing frame is NOT natural horsemanship at all!


----------



## AnrewPL (Jun 3, 2012)

Fort fireman said:


> Which video was it? I thought I've seen all the spade bit horse videos on youtube.:lol: Thats my futre goal, someday, maybe, eventually, if I'm ever good enough. Don't hate me OP but this is my goal.:lol:


well, I musta been a little under the weather when I watched that video, For some reason I thought it was an older couple in it, there's the older guy there talking, and I must have thought the woman there on the horse with him was his wife but she doesn't look old enough; I don't know, maybe she is. anyway you can see the twits comment down the bottom. And that's a nice looking buckskin he is on too.


----------



## Fort fireman (Mar 5, 2011)

Ok, ya I've seen those videos. I've heard of pat Puckett but don't know much about him. I saw the comment. The person just doesn't know that the horse knows everything it needs to before the bit is ever put in its mouth. Just a typical misconception of a spade bit, or bits in general by the uninformed or uninterested in learning.


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

I have to admit that this UK born person, who was an English rider used to think that they were HORRIBLE AWFUL bits...

Then I found out the truth..

If you take a horse and start him in a bosal, and you train him properly, when he is ready you can put a snaffle in his mouth, and after more training, when he is beautifully soft and light you can put a curb in there. After more training and a gradual progression you can demonstrate your partnership and skill, by riding in a bit that isn't meant to be used as any more than a suggestion, a slight closing of the fingers, the merest tickle of contact.

It takes a while to overcome my initial training, start them in a snaffle, if they do OK ride them in it for ever, if you need more brakes while hunting or jumping, bit them and get strong with them.


----------



## Foxtail Ranch (Mar 10, 2012)

AnrewPL said:


> cant remember what it was called, just a sort of news piece about some spade bit people and the people the video focused on were an older couple, Ill see if I can find it. It was about three years ago that I saw it but Ill see if I can track it down for you.


Anrew, I think it was about a couple who are both documentary producers who are researching a movie on the Californian horsemen. It was on Equestrian Nation on RFD recently. Can't remember their names...


----------



## Foxtail Ranch (Mar 10, 2012)

Here is information about the movie I was referring to:

Vaquero Series Videos
(by Susan Jensen and Paul Singer)

Tapadero is a documentary about the California Vaqueros, long revered as some of the world's greatest horsemen. It includes a look at the colorful vaquero history that began 300 years ago in Mexico and traces the journey to Alta California, which would become a horseman’s paradise. You get a first-hand look at the ranch life and the awe-inspiring scenery at some of California’s great ranchos where they still follow vaquero traditions, including riding slick-fork saddles, use of the hackamore and spade bit, reata roping, and livestock handling. It is a tribute to those hardy souls living the vaquero tradition and carrying it forward, and features some of California’s mainstays of the vaquero way.
Running time is approx. 1 hr. 22 min.
DVD Format. $19.00

Videos


----------



## Fort fireman (Mar 5, 2011)

The video Andrew posted is Pat Puckett. He is also in the tapedero video as well. It's a pretty good video.


----------



## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

jimmyp said:


> madyasmkey,
> 
> I certainly hope for your sake, none of your perspective clients, or any of the barns where you have applied for apprenticeship come onto this forum.....
> 
> ...


Right there with ya Jim....ugh.


----------



## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

madyasmkey said:


> Why don't you go to the wall of China, at least then you won't be bugging me.


Whoa...you have a hell of a nerve! Show some respect for those that have been doing this a while and know a HECK of a lot more than you. Your ego is running rampant and your humility is non-existent, especially because you lack so much knowledge and experience. You SHOULD be soaking up the straight-up honest advice here instead of showing attitude, because you have nothing to back up your experience. You are are not a trainer....by any means....you NEED to be a student at your young age of 16. You have* not* paid your dues in the horse training business....no way no how. Come back in 10 years, when you have face planted a few times, have actually got SOME serious instruction (without the ego and attitude that you know it all), and turned out a product from start to finish that has excelled at SOMETHING. Right now....you need to be on finished school horses to learn everything you can, because I've seen your vids....and you haven't a clue and have so much to learn. But, we all started somewhere...and that is where you are at right now....just starting out in your lifelong journey with horses.


----------



## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

madyasmkey said:


> But no matter what discipline, they should be built up to a harsher bit and not because they ignore the softer ones.


There you go again, making assumptions for the entire world and every discipline, based on your very limited experience.

I was riding my horse Red in a snaffle, but not getting him as soft as I wanted him to be. I took him to a trainer to get some help who immediately put him in this.










I could not believe how well he did with that bit. He was soft as butter in her hands. I learned a lot from her, and she helped us both. I still use that correction bit for occasional tune-ups every now and then, but I can ride Red in anything now; including a snaffle. Her putting him into something harsher for training worked extremely well. 



madyasmkey said:


> If I was doing barrel racing, I'd probably be a curb.


?????

What? Why? 

Have you ever even barrel raced before?

I know plenty of people who barrel race in a snaffle. There are no rules in barrel racing, as far as bits and headgear. Your horse will respond to you based on how you have trained them. Yes, some horse will have personal preferences and respond better in certain bits. But by _no means_ does barrel racing require a curb.

One person I always like to post as an example, even though I don't know her personally, is Robyn Herring riding her STALLION Firewaterontherocks in a snaffle. 











I think, overall, you would be best suited if you leave the forums for a couple months, and come back when you've had a little time to think about how much experience you _really_ have. 

There are people on this forum who have an entire LIFETIME of experience under their belts. You can't come on here "guns ablazing" and start shooting your untested opinions. It won't be welcomed, as you have seen. 

Look up the meanings of both *humility* and *humble*. Then try to apply them.

Good luck to you kid.


----------



## heelsdownhairup (Feb 19, 2014)

I personally prefer bitless/hackamore. But im fine with bits on other peoples horses, just not mine, id rather my horse respond out of politeness and manners instead of force.


----------



## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Why do people who prefer bitless assume that a bit is all about force?


----------



## AnrewPL (Jun 3, 2012)

COWCHICK77 said:


> Why do people who prefer bitless assume that a bit is all about force?


that's exactly what I was wondering.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"..._id rather my horse respond out of politeness and manners instead of force._ "

I would too, but then I'd have to go buy a horse like that...and Mia might not like her!

Some horses are very willing by nature. Trooper is like that. Trooper wants what his rider wants, and all he needs to know is what his rider wants. 

But Mia is a very different horse. When she is willing, she is willing...but every once in a while, she'll give her rider the middle hoof salute and ask him what he is going to do about it! When she has a "You're not the boss of me!" moment, replying, "But Sweetie, I'm your FRIEND!" isn't going to cut it. If you aren't willing to go toe-to-hoof with her, so to speak, you'd best not get on her back at all.

My 16 year old daughter adores Trooper and refuses to ride any other horse. She refers to Mia as, "Mia, Warrior Expletive", although my youngest is willing to fill in the expletive that this family friendly website automatically edits.

Also, a lot depends on what you want to do. If you never push a horse beyond what the horse will do on its own willingly, you are just copping a ride on the horse. A lot of horses come to enjoy some sort of work, but they may need to be pushed beyond their own instincts first - and that takes a rider who does not want their horse to just "_respond out of politeness and manners_".

Let me use Mia for an example, as I so often do. She has taught me a lot about horses that I would have never learned if I had bought 'the right horse' to begin with. She came here a fearful, tense horse. For the first 4 months, she could work herself into a lather just standing in the corral. She had frequent episodes of colic. Year later, and many mis-steps later - including years of bitless bridles - Mia is a vastly calmer horse. She still can get tense on a trail, but she originally couldn't walk 200 yards down the road from her corral without panicking. And the biggest jump in her ability to relax came when I introduced her to...drum roll...curb bits. With help from a curb bit, I've been able to push her into situations she wanted to flee from. And when she held her ground, under pressure from her rider, she discovered the world is not nearly as scary as she thought! 

She doesn't work herself up in the corral any longer. She hasn't had a colic episode since shortly before learning about curb bits. She gives every indication of being a happier, calmer, more relaxed horse. That change has come from pushing her, a little at a time, into places she didn't want to go. That was the only way she would ever learn to relax.

Horses don't need friends. They need leaders. And some horses won't accept any leader who isn't willing to figuratively bare his teeth and get after her. :shock: Over time, that horse may then come to obey _"out of politeness and manners_", but they will be manners and politeness taught by training! Kind of like kids...

BTW - Mia has calmed down so much that I started riding her this week without stirrups. Given all the jumps, sideways hops, OMG Crouches, spins, bolts, combinations of spin and bolt (that I called a '_turn & burn_') we have done together, I honestly never thought I'd be able to ride her without the extra security of stirrups. I still wouldn't try that full speed or on the trail, but she has improved immensely - by being pushed to the edge of her comfort zone, and maybe a little beyond!


----------



## horseluver50 (Mar 19, 2009)

I only ride my mare in a rope halter. She was by no means a well broke horse when I got her at auction. She has bucked, bolted, reared in the past.
She is MUCH more responsive in a rope halter than a bit. I tried a bit on her and she would just pull through it. I say to listen to what the horse is telling you. 
Mysti is now an awesome trail horse, starting arena work. I ride her up the mountain, along the beach, in the pasture in a halter.. At all gaits. 
The bit doesn't control the horse. I believe in being as light as possible 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Agreed ^. Im bringing my mare back down to a snaffle. She is getting to the point that all i have to do is lightly "wiggle" the reins with my pinky and she will stop and back up, but I will still ride her on trails in a stronger bit on her "off" days. She is a mare and though she only gets "marish" one heat a year, she is barn sour. If she wants to, she will head home with out without me lol. I do trail rider her in both a rope halter (On a VERY good day), a snaffle (most days, now) and a tomb thumb, (my normal riding bit but its now reserved for the I'm-going-to-go-home-with-or-without-you-NOW days -_-'). The bit dose not "control" her per say, its more of how much pressure she is willing to ignore. My goal is to be able to ride her with NO bit contact. the only time i need it is stopping and backing at the moment but she is getting better .


----------



## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

heelsdownhairup said:


> I personally prefer bitless/hackamore. But im fine with bits on other peoples horses, just not mine, id rather my horse respond out of politeness and manners instead of force.


Oh....so peope who use bits don't have politeness and manners, but only use force to have their horse respond??? OK....LOLOLOL.


----------



## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

GotaDunQH said:


> Oh....so peope who use bits don't have politeness and manners, but only use force to have their horse respond??? OK....LOLOLOL.


:lol: Agree
If your having to use force then there is some major holes in your training or riding skills,not the fact the horse is wearing a bit:-(.


----------



## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

paintedpastures said:


> :lol: Agree
> *If your having to use force then there is some major holes in your training or riding skills,not the fact the horse is wearing a bit*:-(.


This bears repeating.....especially the "major holes in your training or riding skills". Ding ding ding...we have a winner!


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Let me ask a question then - if you have major holes in your training if you ever use force, and thus should never use force, how do you get a horse, for example, to go faster at a light squeeze if you are never willing to do more than ask with a light squeeze?

I was taught that you use a series in asking a horse to trot: kiss, light squeeze, firm squeeze, bump, kick, crop. At some point, the horse figures out that since it is going to end up trotting anyways, it might as well do so at the bump. It then figures out it might as well do it at a squeeze, and eventually (if that is your sequence) learns to trot at a kiss - which is where Mia is at right now.

However, if you are not willing to escalate, and just rely on asking politely, then your horse will probably learn to ignore you.

In teaching neck reining, the initial cue is the movement of the reins against the neck. If that is all you ever do, however, your horse will never learn to turn. So you follow up the neck rein with a more forceful cue, and go on up until the horse turns. Over time, if you are consistent, the horse will learn to turn from the neck rein alone.

A finished horse will respond to polite cues, but the horse needs to be trained to respond to 'polite' cues - and that training may involve using enough force to convince the horse it would rather obey at "Please" than at "Darn it!"

What am I missing? Because I do use force with Mia sometimes, and given her personality, I'm likely to always need that option. Those times might become less frequent, but I think there will always be days she will check to see if I'm serious. She is very willing and sweet, except for when she is not. And when she is not, politeness won't get me anywhere...


----------



## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

^The type of force I'm referring to is physical force, intimidation force, abuse force.....NOT standard "ask, show, receive" force. Does that make any sense? LOL.

There is a difference between the two.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Let me phrase it this way and see if you agree:

If you are using a bit as a tool of force to intimidate your horse into obeying, you are badly screwed up. If you are using it as a training tool to encourage your horse to obey until your horse knows enough to obey willingly, then that is OK. 

In like manner, if you rely on using a crop all the time to get your horse to trot, you suck as a trainer. But you might use a crop as a training tool to teach the horse that life is better if you trot when asked politely.

Mia has some big training holes caused by irrational fear of almost everything. So it is fair to use tools like bits, legs, and slightly scary situations to train her to not be afraid. But it would be wrong to rely on inflicting pain to control her. Not only would that not work, but it would be horribly unfair to the horse. Training holes should be filled, not papered over.

Is that on track?


----------



## AnrewPL (Jun 3, 2012)

bsms said:


> Let me phrase it this way and see if you agree:
> 
> If you are using a bit as a tool of force to intimidate your horse into obeying, you are badly screwed up. If you are using it as a training tool to encourage your horse to obey until your horse knows enough to obey willingly, then that is OK.
> 
> ...


I think it depends on how you go about it. Training a horse, I guess is like teaching a person about a subject they know nothing about, except with the horse you have a completely different language and tool kit to use. 

When I walk into the yard with a horse that has never been touched, it has its preconceptions about what is going on, perhaps, "I'm about to become food for this predatory, eyeball on the front of the head having, thing". in my head is a different preconception, mainly "you have no idea what I am going to be saying to you so Ill break it down to bite sized pieces and give you time and room to digest them". I ask for response A, if I don't get it, I ask a bit louder, if I still don't get it I ask louder again till I get it. That's the basic principal that operates throughout the horse's training. And I think that's probably what you are getting at, so Id agree with that. There are a bunch of variables, as always that requires one to modify approach, technique etc., but the basic principal is the same.

Where people are talking about bits and more force with training holes is, from the way I read it would be akin to : horse doesn't go in a, say snaffle, so whack a curb in its mouth and off you go without assessing what went wrong in the first place, where holes in the training might be, or holes in the handling, and do everything exactly the same as before. Then you will probably just be using increasing amounts of force and equipment that has a harder potential. 

Perhaps there are a lot of people who do it that way, when I was a kid and learning it all that was generally the way here, horse doesn't respond well, make it through any means necessary without actually having a think about what was going on, I have seen some pretty hard men on horses. The hardest I ever heard about was a guy who used to be a stockman for my uncle. I didn't see this, I just heard about it, apparently one of his horses wouldn't stop and kept running through the bit and he had no idea how to deal with it so he made a barbed wire nose band and connected it to the rings of the bit. absolutely horrific stuff, but he has even had to shoot horses he has been training because he has injured them so bad. 

That's the kind of thing I think people mean when they talk about using force on training holes, maybe not that nasty, but along those lines- cant figure out how to fix it? just bash away at it till it looks kinda fixed.


----------

