# buddy sour question



## Alder (Feb 15, 2017)

Hi, I'm an oldie and a newbie (to horses), and here's my first question (yay! love this site);

I have two horses, 12yr old 'D' (dominant) and a 6yr old 'B' (baby).
They only go in the barn for the farrier, so every 6-8 weeks. B is buddy sour. I have tried various options for leading them into the barn and tying them up, but I don't know what is best. The stall is open to the outside, with nowhere near the door to tie them up.

Should I:
1 Lead D in first, and leave B tied up outside freaking out.
2 Let B follow us into the barn loose.
3 Lead B in first and tie her up to freak out when I go to get D.

Is there a conventional approach with dominant and buddy sour horses? Thanks!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

The only way B is going to get better, and develop a skill I think is necessary for every horse to learn, that of accepting to be tied solid and alone, is to spend time doing it.
Don't wait until you need to bring her in and tie her, but make it a daily routine, until she accepts it
I assume she understands how to give to pressure 100%. If so, tie her in a safe place, and leave her tied, until she is standing there quietly


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Alder said:


> Hi, I'm an oldie and a newbie (to horses), and here's my first question (yay! love this site);
> 
> I have two horses, 12yr old 'D' (dominant) and a 6yr old 'B' (baby).
> They only go in the barn for the farrier, so every 6-8 weeks. B is buddy sour. I have tried various options for leading them into the barn and tying them up, but I don't know what is best. The stall is open to the outside, with nowhere near the door to tie them up.
> ...


1st, excuse me if I use old terms. Just a case of growing up with old terms and using them all my life. I've never quite wrapped my head around the new terms that have come up in the last few decades (barefoot for unshod, buddy sore for herd bound, etc...). I'm an old timer in both age AND horses )). Nothing wrong with the new terms. A rose, by any other name, is still a rose.

If you can't separate them long enough to have their feet trimmed how on earth do you manage to ride them?

It's perfectly normal for horses to bind and want to be with their "herd". Most horses will do this, but they must learn to accept being separated no matter what the reasoning. There are various ways of working on this. Any of them that works for your horse(s) is fine. One that I've used the most (i.e. it's worked with most of the horses I've had to deal with being herd bound) is to take one out, a little ways away from the herd while keeping them calm (sometimes it helps to have them in eyesight), hold them there for a short time and take them back. I'll do this multiple times in succession, keeping them away just a little longer each time and moving them farther away. Now exactly what the horse is thinking about this process we'll never know, but they soon learn that when I take them out they'll still get to return and they stop fighting it.

It is vital that a horse learns to leave the herd. I've had new horses get 0.1 mile from home and bolt back to the pasture. The herd means safety and they are hardwired to seek a safe situation. They will naturally perceive being away from the herd as being unsafe until they learn otherwise. Our horses have to learn to deal with being separated with no other horse around for days or even weeks.

Just be patient, consistent, and work at it in short, small stages at the start. The trick is to keep them from panicking while you train them.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Personally, also being old and basically lazy, I would bring them both in together! Leading them. Then, if I wanted five horses in from a field I would bring all five in together. 

However that is not the answer to your problem and I agree with Smilie in that the youngster needs to be tied solid on their own.


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## Alder (Feb 15, 2017)

Thank you for your answers. My inexperience created this situation, I didn't know about the buddy sour behaviour, so I will work gradually on building B's confidence (she's prone to panic). 
I'm unable lead them in together because the door to the stall isn't wide enough for two horses.
Only D is saddle trained, and I ride her within sight of the pasture, so B eventually settles down. I'm taking everything slowly because of my lack of experience.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Can you just let them both come into the barn at the same time? Tie one up and then put a halter on the other and tie him up somewhere nearby?

Disagree about tying them up in a place YOU think is safe and just leaving them until they settle down. This can result in what is call "flooding" in behavior modification terms and can result in a permanent emotional shut down. Even though many may view this emotional shut down as, "just being respectful now", it can and does result in a loss of the horse's natural spirit which should be preserved as much as possible.

Hondo was herd bound when I first got him. I did as described and took him on frequent short walks and ALWAYS returned him to the herd. Even after a solo ride, I always found the herd and then returned him, never letting him go alone running and neighing in fright searching for the herd.

I now have Hondo with only one other horse and they have developed some buddy sourness. In my case that is a good thing as the other horse is to be used as a pack horse. Since he's buddy sour to Hondo, there's less worry about him running off when packing with him.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Teaching a horse to accept standing tied alone, is not flooding, but basic good horse training fundamentals
Perhaps, on a horse that has this 'hole'in basic training, you might wish to use a more gradual approach, but horses that get this basic education, never get to that panic mode, 'joined at the hip, in the first place
Perhaps my stance comes for having started many young horses over the years, that we raised, and recognizing standard practice at many good training barns
Standing tied, after work, waiting to be ridden, at trailers during one day shows, overnight on trail rides,,are all expectations for my horses, and horses are creatures of habit
You can't enjoy working or riding a horse, if his mind is back on that buddy.
Thus, for me, if this horse is going to be started under saddle, as she certainly is not a baby, but old enough to start, part of that training program has to be time spent tied up and alone
Riding just in sight of home is a compromise and big limitation. Ideally, a safe corral for the hrose left behind, or even some companion
I can't imagine having any one of my horses, that I can't take into the barn, tie up, either before or after riding, and have then freaking out, versus standing patiently waiting for me


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> part of that training program has to be time spent tied up and alone


Thought that'd pull you in @Smilie 

Well, we disagree. You have more experience than I, but there are those that have much more experience than you, that also disagree.

And of course there are those that do agree with you.

There are three horses here on the ranch that could be called babies, especially one. And that one had the most brightest inquisitive and wonderful personality that it seems a baby could possibly have.

Well, the ranch here agrees with you. And all three babies are now emotionally injured. Compared to before, the one could almost be said to be emotionally dead. Breaks my heart. Really really does.

I would never ever in one million years subject any horse to the stress of not having another horse around and also being tied up with no human with them.

I will tie Hondo up with no horse around, but only if I'm there all the time. I will not leave him.

And round and round we go...........


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

It is simply impossible to teach a horse to be unafraid when completely alone and unable to escape should a predator attack. They can be taught that any attempt to escape under those conditions is futile, but just because they have ceased all effort to escape does not mean they have "learned" to be alone.

We as humans can learn and understand being alone and safe. The horse simply does not have that ability. Their nature is just buried too deeply in their being for that to be possible.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

I acquired a large mare (years ago) that was never trained to stand tied. I was not aware of this and tied her to a fence post and turned my back for 30 seconds to grab a brush. She backed up so hard that she pulled out the post and popped the wire off of two other posts. It is a wonder that she and I weren't both killed.

I train all of my horses to stand tied. I don't leave them unattended though. If they are new to the concept, I will tie them and sit in a chair outside and watch them for an hour or two.

The next day, I do the same. And again, and again. They figure it out pretty quickly. Just don't give them enough rope to hurt themselves with.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Well, Hondo, it depends on how it is done. Having raised many foals over the years, then weaned them, then started them under saddle, i can honestly say that none have been emotionally traumatized
I don't tie weanlings and leave then long, I just tie them enough,so they stand tied while I trim feet
As yearlings, they might be left tied somewhat longer, perhaps for half an hour, in a stall with rubber matts.
Only once I started them under saddle, did they learn to stand tied for at least an hour or so, after I worked them-alone, but not out in the woods or out of their coMfort zone, but in the stall or bARN, BOTH BEING FAMILAR COMFORT ZONES
This has nothing to do with being afraid a predator will get them,but just learning life goes on without another horse constantly with them.
Only time my horses are tied, in a place where there is a predator concern, is out on a trail ride, and I never leave any hrose in camp alone,, but will pony that pack horse along
I have gone to one day shows, where you don't have a stall, so the hrose has to accept standing tied to a trailer. There are always other horses around, so the hrose is not alone, BUT, as I used to show both a jr and senior horse, the one left behind had to accept that separation form buddy.
Many horses had to be loaded into their trailers, if buddies were taken away to show, as they would freak out otherwise. This has nothing to do with ahrose being afraid, because he is a herd /prey species, as other horses are in sight, but has everything to do with being buddy sour
I am not recommending taking a horse out to the woods and tying him up by himself. However, any well trained hrose should accept separation from his buddy, in his comfort zone, tied up in the barn, ect
It is very common for me to ride one horse, tie that horse up in the barn isle, do some house work, then go out and turn that horse out, and ride another. I find that horse quietly waiting to be un saddled, hind leg cocked, relaxed, waiting patiently. If you don't need that in a horse , fine, but if a hrose does not have that, he has a huge hole in training, in my books
I know you don't show, but I have been top shows, where the barn is full of horses, yet if a horse is taken out of the stall, next to his buddy, the horse left behind has a melt down. He is not alone. He is buddy sour


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Celeste said:


> I acquired a large mare (years ago) that was never trained to stand tied. I was not aware of this and tied her to a fence post and turned my back for 30 seconds to grab a brush. She backed up so hard that she pulled out the post and popped the wire off of two other posts. It is a wonder that she and I weren't both killed.
> 
> I train all of my horses to stand tied. I don't leave them unattended though. If they are new to the concept, I will tie them and sit in a chair outside and watch them for an hour or two.
> 
> The next day, I do the same. And again, and again. They figure it out pretty quickly. Just don't give them enough rope to hurt themselves with.


Agreed. I hope no one misunderstands that I'm apposed to a horse being trained to stand tied. Not that at all.

But not unattended as you say. And even if in a small safe pen, they should have other horses nearby. But like you, I would not want them left unattended even then. That's what we use quick release knots for. Stuff can happen at any unsuspected time.

Horses seem at times bent upon self destruction. We don't need to be helping them.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Celeste said:


> I acquired a large mare (years ago) that was never trained to stand tied. I was not aware of this and tied her to a fence post and turned my back for 30 seconds to grab a brush. She backed up so hard that she pulled out the post and popped the wire off of two other posts. It is a wonder that she and I weren't both killed.
> 
> I train all of my horses to stand tied. I don't leave them unattended though. If they are new to the concept, I will tie them and sit in a chair outside and watch them for an hour or two.
> 
> The next day, I do the same. And again, and again. They figure it out pretty quickly. Just don't give them enough rope to hurt themselves with.


Never tie horses to fence posts, esp near wire. Even my well trained horses, that tie great, I would never tie to a fence. 
You have to use common sense , and safety in mind. Either build a good hitching rail, or have other safe pales to tie a hrose, and if none of that is near, just grooming, ground tie


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Big difference in tying a horse in some comfort zone, at home, in the barn isle, at a hitching rail, in a stall alone, and tying one up my himself on some trail out in the woods, esp over night


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I worked with the babies the same as Smilie, they learn to tie when with their dams, they are taught to give to pressure from am early age and they learn that once tied there is nothing drastic going to happen to them. 

A friend asked me to help her move her mare and foal from one field to another - something I would have thought nothing about doing it on my own. When the foal planted himself, he was about 4 or 5 months old, I kept a pressure on the rope. He sat back against it for a moment then dropped his head and the pressure was released and he moved forward.

The owner was absolutely certain I had harmed him but I just told her that I was in the process of teaching him to be tied! There was no fight between the foal and myself he learned that because he planted he got pressure, keep forward and it stopped. 
@Hondo - you are correct in saying that it can traumatise a horse to the point in that animal changing character totally. There are many things that can do the same and break the spirit of an animal. I do not work that way, I want my animals to be secure and happy in their lives, to work _with_ me not for me because they have no choice.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

@Smilie The OP started with buddy sour and we got off the track. I've dealt with buddy sour on a gradual basis successfully. And I believe it is the best way. I believe buddy sour is actually fear based.

Same as being tied. Fear based. Even picking up a foot on a horse that is usually very cooperative can become a problem during a fearful alert. (Hondo) That's my escape mechanism, don't take it away right now.

All fear based stuff, which most "stuff" is, needs to be dealt with gradually and not by flooding.

It also helps if the horse has developed a huge amount of trust and confidence in the person doing the training. Trust, I believe, is developed by the horse knowing what to expect out of his human. Always. When we are predictable we become consistent and thereby trusted.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Smilie said:


> Never tie horses to fence posts, esp near wire. Even my well trained horses, that tie great, I would never tie to a fence.
> You have to use common sense , and safety in mind. Either build a good hitching rail, or have other safe pales to tie a hrose, and if none of that is near, just grooming, ground tie


I figured that one out for sure!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> @Smilie The OP started with buddy sour and we got off the track. I've dealt with buddy sour on a gradual basis successfully. And I believe it is the best way. I believe buddy sour is actually fear based.
> 
> Same as being tied. Fear based. Even picking up a foot on a horse that is usually very cooperative can become a problem during a fearful alert. (Hondo) That's my escape mechanism, don't take it away right now.
> 
> ...


A horse that is 6 years old, and freaks when his buddy is momentarily even out of sight, is on the opposite end of flooding.
Remember how we went through the whole discussion of balance, in horse training, not just in physical cues, but concerning fair clear boundaries?
It is of course, preferable to train ahrose correctly from day one, and that includes gradually increased confidence in tying and being not locked onto the hip of another horse constantly
Unfortunately, this horse never had that education. If the Op can't even leave this hrose tied in the barn, long enough to get buddy horse, without the horse freaking out, then you either fix such a horse or ????
Only the other horse is ride able, and only within sight of home, so I don't know about you, but I kinda think a lot of education is missing in this horse
My horses certainly are not afraid of me-anyone that knows me and my horses, would laugh at that idea.
Everything we do with a prey /herd species, like a horse, involves that horse 'adapting', learning to trust and accept various things we do with him, which is counter to his natural fear based instincts, in order to make him useful.
That includes getting on his back, asking him to dampen his fear when he would rather bolt, and yes, accept standing tied.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

When I started with Hondo, I was drawn to the idea of 1% per day for 100 days and then you're done for the rest of the horse's life, mostly.

Worked for me.

That was for bond, trust, and herd bound/sour. Worked on all three at the same times.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

In my continued thinking about this topic I recalled another discussion on a different thread that might be useful in some indirect way to the OP.

We were off somewhere on the topic of fearful vs non-fearful behavior and then heart rate monitors as possible way to check if some fearful behavior might just be done as a way to get what the horse wanted (ie-no work). Personally I was of the opinion that horses are not quite that complex.

Anyhow, links were posted and the discussion went forth.

One of the links was to a study that was particularly interesting and surprising. It seemed to be well designed and well executed. The people doing the study were as surprised at the results as anyone.

The horses that appeared the calmest had the highest heart rate while the horses that were all jittery had the lowest. On average.

The suggestion was, although further testing would be needed for confirmation, that the calm appearing horse was afraid but was more afraid of showing his fear which drove up his heart rate. The horse that displayed the fear did not have to deal with the additional stress of not showing the fear.

Did I say horses are not complex? I take it back!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hi, I agree with lbs completely, Hondo and Smilie for the most part. I disagree that a horse cannot/should not learn to be tied(or left) alone confidently. It absolutely happens Hondo, quite regularly! I also agree that to attempt to teach this by 'sink or swim' tactics - just taking the horse & tying it alone somewhere is only likely to further traumatise it unhelpfully & at best, cause it to 'shut down'. But Smilie, sounds like you were saying just because it's not done in the woods, with real predators lurking, just because it is at home in safe environment means it isn't a fear response. Disagree with that(not saying it always is of course either).

So, OP, my tactic is the same as lbs, that I would start 'small', taking B away(or leaving her alone in the paddock) only a short way to begin with - ideally not so far that she becomes seriously anxious - the 'easier' the steps, the quicker she will progress. Ensure there's something Good in it for her too - a pick at some extra nice grass, a feed... then take her back, **so long as she's quiet. Do this repeatedly until she is comfortable being left, before 'upping the ante' a bit more & repeating process.

If she isn't, I'd teach her to tie(assuming she already knows how to yield to halter pressure well first) separately to this. Teach her first to tie & not pull back when she's relaxed & comfortable - ie with her mate. Teach her to leave/be left by her mate confidently BEFORE attempting to tie her up alone.

Until that is done, I'd avoid more stress & bad associative training with relation to the barn by either not taking her in there alone or taking her together with her mate. Hold her or tie her outside for the farrier instead. If the barn's big enough to be safe, just that the doorway is not wide enough to bring them both through at the same time, you need to do some serious work on safe leading behaviour with the 2 of them, so she is confident and well mannered whether beside you, behind, sent in front or made to wait behind her mate... Again, don't start this in the barn doorway, where things might already be tense & unsafe.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

I don't see separation anxiety as being a sign of poor training or lack of training. I've seen many horses develop separation anxiety in older age when their situation changes. 

You can have a horse that felt secure with a situation, enjoyed their buddies in the field and felt confident that the areas where they were ridden were safe. This horse might also feel safe being trailered to shows and other places. If you move this horse out of the area after a few years to a new barn with a new herd situation, and everything is different, the horse might suddenly develop separation anxiety and stop standing quietly when tied, stop calmly going out on rides alone, etc. 

If a horse becomes insecure, that horse may decide he needs to stick with the other horses until he once again feels his environment is safe. So I've seen where some horses need to be reconditioned to leaving their herd several times or more during their life. I've seen at least several people frustrated, wanting to blame other horses, the new barn or anything at all because their horse has "never done this before."

Ideally, the horse considers a human part of the herd that creates his safety net. Then he will feel safe as long as the human is there. So while I agree with @Hondo that I wouldn't leave a horse totally alone or make the horse go out alone, I do expect the horse to learn to feel safe going out with just myself or standing tied with me there for safety. Some horses easily learn that they will be safe with a human there to be part of their herd, but others take longer to feel safe with only a human present.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> In my continued thinking about this topic I recalled another discussion on a different thread that might be useful in some indirect way to the OP.
> 
> We were off somewhere on the topic of fearful vs non-fearful behavior and then heart rate monitors as possible way to check if some fearful behavior might just be done as a way to get what the horse wanted (ie-no work). Personally I was of the opinion that horses are not quite that complex.
> 
> ...


Actually, the study that I referred to, concerning heart rate detection using monitors, was done to show that there indeed are times horses do a fake fear spook
Horses taht did a fake spook, to intimidate their rider, get out of work, ect,never had a heart rate increase, like that generated by a true fear spook

The other study, was done to show how well ahrose reads his rider's body language. Riders were told, that when they passed a certain part of an arena, a blank canon would be fired. It never was, but,both hose and rider were wearing heart monitors, and the horse;s heart rate went up , as their rider's did. Obviously, the horses did not understand that a cannon would be fired, but solely reacted to their rider's increased heart rate, when that spot was approached


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

gottatrot said:


> I don't see separation anxiety as being a sign of poor training or lack of training. I've seen many horses develop separation anxiety in older age when their situation changes.
> 
> You can have a horse that felt secure with a situation, enjoyed their buddies in the field and felt confident that the areas where they were ridden were safe. This horse might also feel safe being trailered to shows and other places. If you move this horse out of the area after a few years to a new barn with a new herd situation, and everything is different, the horse might suddenly develop separation anxiety and stop standing quietly when tied, stop calmly going out on rides alone, etc.
> 
> ...


Sure, that happens, until the hrose learns his place in that new herd, becomes blind, etc, BUt that is not the case here, and it is a failure to have taught that hrose, to accept that separation, as it grew up


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

loosie said:


> I disagree that a horse cannot/should not learn to be tied(or left) alone confidently. It absolutely happens Hondo, quite regularly!


Not sure if you mean left tied unattended, but if so I strongly disagree and believe that to be abuse. Abuse happens quite regularly but that doesn't make it ok.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

gottatrot said:


> Ideally, the horse considers a human part of the herd that creates his safety net. Then he will feel safe as long as the human is there. So while I agree with @Hondo that I wouldn't leave a horse totally alone or make the horse go out alone, I do expect the horse to learn to feel safe going out with just myself or standing tied with me there for safety. Some horses easily learn that they will be safe with a human there to be part of their herd, but others take longer to feel safe with only a human present.


Quite a few times I have experienced warm fuzzy feelings when one of the horses continued to linger around in the yard pen only to look my way when I went into the house and then leave the yard.

Probably just waiting to see if they were going to get something special, but I like to think that I was providing a comfort to them by my presence.

Approaching three years of almost constant contact. Everything is just so much different now.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

gottatrot said:


> I do expect the horse to learn to feel safe going out with just myself or standing tied with me there for safety.


I'm thinking about this and while I agree with what I know is meant, I might disagree with the interpretation that some others could possibly read into it as stated.

And that would be reading that it is the horse's job to learn to feel safe alone with us, rather than it being 100% our job to cause the horse to feel safe with us alone.

Big difference.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> Not sure if you mean left tied unattended, but if so I strongly disagree and believe that to be abuse. Abuse happens quite regularly but that doesn't make it ok.


Of course you use the gradual approach, but yes, eventually you work towards being able to leave that hrose un attended
I don't know about you, but when I am on a camping trip, I sleep in my tent, and have no intention of watching my hrose all night long, which does not mean I am not tuned into any un usual noise during the night, nor check if I do hear something
If I have one horse tied to a trailer, at ahrose show, while I ride the other one, again,I have the confidence that the hrose has had to conditioning/training to accept that, without going into panic mode, and am in no way recommending taking ahrose cold 'turkey', one never taught to accept being tied, and just let them work it out!
On the other hand, any horse that has a melt down, just being tied in the barn, while his buddy is being brought in, lacks basic training, and such a horse is no joy to have around, work with ect, anymore then trying to ride a horse, joined at the hip to a buddy
Anyone who has ever needed to resort to riding a dude string horse, in aware of this issue. That horse, through no fault of his own, ridden by many riders that are just passengers, rides great, goes anywhere, as long as he is able to keep up to a buddy in front, and you don't ask him to deviate one iota from the path taken by his buddies
Sure, he has learned to get his security from those other horses, and not his rider, but just because I understand 'why', does not mean I want to ride such a horse, nor teach him otherwise
Ditto for a horse, that has never learned to be out of eye sight from an equine buddy, that has a melt down, in the short period it takes to get that buddy into the barn also. 
I know all about the herd/prey mentality, but most of what we do with hroses, revolves around us being able to modify that flight reaction, to have the horse learn to 'adapt', to some level, accepting what he is naturally not programmed to do. That includes having a ;predator; on his back


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> Actually, the study that I referred to, concerning heart rate detection using monitors, was done to show that there indeed are times horses do a fake fear spook


Well I wish I remembered the thread we could go back and discuss. To my memory, the study proved, or strongly indicated, that horses do not fake a spook to get out of work.

If you happen to have your finger on the article that proves the do fake spooks, share it again please.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> Of course you use the gradual approach, but yes, eventually you work towards being able to leave that hrose un attended


What I mean by unattended is a horse being tied up alone with no one available to free the horse should something happen to cause the horse to go into a panic attack.

My guess is that is how the horse died in unbranded. All the horses got frightened and ran away except the one that was tied while the owner was off fishing. Broke his neck or cut off his air.

Sorry, that was abuse. The owner felt terrible. But had he been nearby, the horse would have lived. At least so I believe based on my watching half a dozen times so far.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> I'm thinking about this and while I agree with what I know is meant, I might disagree with the interpretation that some others could possibly read into it as stated.
> 
> And that would be reading that it is the horse's job to learn to feel safe alone with us, rather than it being 100% our job to cause the horse to feel safe with us alone.
> 
> Big difference.


yes, it is our job to teach that horse to substitute us for an equine buddy, when we ride or work with him, far as that feeling of security, and that only happens when we show the horse that we are a worthy leader, one he can trust.
Horses feel secure in strong and fair leadership, that is consistent
They do not do well in grey zones, needing to constantly ask, 'are you still the leader'
If a horse is focused on that buddy left behind, versus on you, then his leader is back in that pasture, and not on his back
It is also our job to teach a horse to accept standing tied, alone, in a comfort zone. I am not talking about tying a hrose in the back forty, and then checking on him several hours later, but I do expect a hrose to accept standing tied, in a comfort zone, like a stall or the barn isle, and to relax doing so, until I return to un saddle, or whatever
If you have to watch a horse every time you tie him up, never leave, then why in the heck bother? You might as well just ground tie him, or hold him.
The entire idea to me, far as teaching ahrose to accept being tied solid, is that you then can leave him alone


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hondo said:


> Not sure if you mean left tied unattended, but if so I strongly disagree and believe that to be abuse. Abuse happens quite regularly but that doesn't make it ok.


:lol:Well, glad then that it's only your opinion you're entitled to then, because with that (extreme)definition, I'm a serial horse abuser and not the least remorseful about it! As must be all 'real world' horse people, no matter how conscientious. I'm a bit offended by that statement actually, but I put it down to your lack of experience. 

*Only after conditioning, to make certain a horse IS comfortable being tied & left(or else I will ensure there's a calm mate with them, or not leave them), I've been known to tie them to the trailer, to a fence or tree, while I go do something for a short spell. I've tied them outside a shop while I went in. (This abuse causes their poor, tortured sensibilities to appear to love being tied at the green grocers, because they know I'll come out with some goodie for them too!:tongue. Heck, I've even been known to tie them in the trailer & leave them to go drive it, or, Dog forbid, fill up the car & go into the service station to pay without taking them in with me!! :rofl:


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

I'm in smilies boat. 

Trouble will tie anywhere, to anything, completely and utterly alone if I wish. It's one of the most important things (just in my opinion) you can teach a horse, apart from leading safely. 

Spirit is a mess when Trouble leaves. To the point where she charged through the fence when we went on a ride and came looking for us. That is unacceptable. Completely and utterly unacceptable. Yes, they're only a herd of two, and yes when I leave she is completely alone. I could make up excuses for days, but what it really comes down to, instinct or not she will not die left alone. 

She is much like OPs horse. I can't take him in the barn to be trimmed without her pretty near running through the wall to get back to him. It was my job to do whatever it took to safely teach her to stand tied while alone. I do not have solid fencing, so it was unsafe to leave her in a pen while I took him away and let her work it out. My safest option was tying her high to a thick branch that jutted out from our apple tree so she could work it out there. 

I spent time every day tying her and putting Trouble away out of sight. Thankfully he will not yell back to her when she screams for him. Take this with a grain of salt, because every method is different for every horse, and some methods require tweaking for individual horses, she's sixteen and has that habit ingrained into her, so she can handle a CTJ moment. 

I'd try her for however long it took for her to calm down. The first day it was an hour. The second day it was three and a half. I'd go inside where she couldn't see me, watch her out the window, drink coffee, read a book, clean the house and keep an eye out. She would do everything possible to get free- sit back on the rope, strike and beat and try to lay down- it was pretty awful to watch, but she needed this. After a week I tied her hay bag out, because she calmed down enough to think about eating, and was ready and mentally "there" enough to have it. 

A routine is a godsend in terms of horses. Now, she will go stand under her tree when I take Trouble out, because that's her safe place and she's used to the routine of "that's where I stand when he's not here." Not exactly what I wanted but much better than charging through the fence. I could fix this "safe space" problem by tying her in different places every time I leave. 

She is not broken. Her spirit is still very much alive. She just had a lightbulb moment of "oh, he comes back and I'm not dead. Look at that!"


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

loosie said:


> :lol:Well, glad then that it's only your opinion you're entitled to then, because with that (extreme)definition, I'm a serial horse abuser and not the least remorseful about it! As must be all 'real world' horse people, no matter how conscientious. I'm a bit offended by that statement actually, but I put it down to your lack of experience.
> 
> *Only after conditioning, to make certain a horse IS comfortable being tied & left(or else I will ensure there's a calm mate with them, or not leave them), I've been known to tie them to the trailer, to a fence or tree, while I go do something for a short spell. I've tied them outside a shop while I went in. (This abuse causes their poor, tortured sensibilities to appear to love being tied at the green grocers, because they know I'll come out with some goodie for them too!:tongue. Heck, I've even been known to tie them in the trailer & leave them to go drive it, or, Dog forbid, fill up the car & go into the service station to pay without taking them in with me!! :rofl:


Guess I then am also an abuser, as I leave Charlie tied alone in the barn isle, after riding her, next to a hay bag and a bucket with some beet pulp. Boy, does she look abused when I go back to un saddle her-but wait, she is standing there abused to the point of sleeping, one hind leg cocked!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hondo said:


> Well I wish I remembered the thread we could go back and discuss. To my memory, the study proved, or strongly indicated, that horses do not fake a spook to get out of work.


Don't know about the study - haven't read about that sort of thing for some time. I object to the belief that horses 'fake' or 'lie' about stuff. That is a human 'moral' kind of thing.

But horses absolutely do LEARN to do what works, by association. If a horse steps on a rock & limps, spooks or otherwise throws a wobbly, resulting in the rider getting off or otherwise quitting doing something the horse was finding unpleasant, if this happens repeatedly, they can indeed learn to associate cause & effect, and do it in absence of 'real' reasons. Which some people interpret as 'faking'.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

So why do we tie up with a quick release knot? Why not just tie up hard and fast, walk off and forget them? Heck, they're trained. They'll be ok. Right? Maybe, maybe not.

Ha ha ha. Real funny.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Sort of like leaving a child alone unattended in a car....we won't be long......they'll be ok......probably.

Oh! Excuse me! It's only a horse. My bad.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hondo said:


> So why do we tie up with a quick release knot? Why not just tie up hard and fast, walk off and forget them? Heck, they're trained. They'll be ok. Right? Maybe, maybe not.
> 
> Ha ha ha. Real funny.


I don't think you've thought that through. Or the assumption that that horse you spoke of, on some show, wouldn't have panicked & died if the owner was present. S**t happens and horses can panic when their 'herd' is there too. And if/when reactions happen & they're tied, a quick release knot is just so you can still easily undo a rope that's been pulled tight. 

The way I understand it, 'tied hard/fast' doesn't mean you don't use a quick release, it just means they're not tied to something breakable, like balers twine, or 'tied' in such a way they can pull loose - ie. rope looped around rail or such. **Which makes me think about that omission in my response to OP. I also do NOT tie a horse hard/fast until such a time as they're confident & comfortable 'tied' with the loop around a rail tactic, or using a Tie Ring or such, in whatever situation. Tying to something unyielding adds to their stress, if they're not well conditioned to tie, can make them panic more & harder.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo
"wrong', exactly the opposite, and I posted that link, regarding heart monitors and fake spooks , versus true fear spooks.
I think the conclusion went something like this, 'endurance riders have long known that sometimes a horse just fakes a spook, thus heart monitors were put on horses, to see the difference
In a true fear spook, that heart rate went up=not so in a fake spook
Guess I will try and find it again for you sometime

Here you go, and if you don't wish to read the entire link on spooking, just go down to fake spooks

Training a Spooky Horse | The Trail Rider


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## Alder (Feb 15, 2017)

Thank you everyone for all the great comments, they've got me thinking. Hondo - your comment about fear, rings true in B's case. She just looks really frightened to me. I'm going read all the comments over carefully and work out a plan for her.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Whoops, missed 5 whole pages. Disregard  I was also going to say just bring them in together.

OP you need to deal with the issue at hand and that means daily (or almost) training. There are lots of good threads on here if you search.

And my abused horses also get tied in their stalls with food for a few minutes as I leave. Heck, sometimes I'll leave them untied in a stall (with the door to the pasture shut) and the door into the barn open (aka LOOSE) and leave. Or since I live in the middle of nowhere actually loose yet in an area where they are alone and they....start eating! I'll let the HORSES tell me what's abuse...

And you can disagree without being rude about it...:?. There were some pretty unnecessary comments last page..

There are also a few times the horses have gotten loose on their own (bad ponies) and....left the others in search of better things.

I absolutely make sure all their needs mental AND physical are met, but it does the horses a disservice to assume they can't take care of themselves for a few minutes.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Just because YOU have a moral bee in your bonnet about stuff Harold, does not make it reasonable to state others are abusing their horses if they disagree with you. It does not make it alright to snidely make WRONG ASSUMPTIONS that they do this because it's 'only a horse' or whatever either. I'm obviously an abusive parent too, in your eyes, because I don't believe in wrapping them in cotton wool & have left my kids alone in various places, where I considered it safe(& not traumatic for them) to do so. Gee, they're so abused that nowdays they ask to stay at home or wait in the car sometimes, if I have somewhere to go! 
Jees, I'm so uncaring that I've even let my kids RIDE HORSES!:eek_color::falloff:
I don't know how I(& SOOOO many others, before these overprotective parenting days) survived such abuse as having to walk home from school alone, fix myself a snack, do my homework & make dinner for the family before my parents got home from work... I could have DIED because I was left alone!


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Hondo, I'm honestly a little disappointed at these posts as you seems like a logical person who is aware of being a extreme novice and eager to learn more and not someone to make comments like that about something you admittedly don't understand. I also find that comment ignorant and offensive.

There are right and wrong ways to do things but just because if done incorrectly it CAN cause issues doesn't mean that no matter what it is wrong. My horses being left alone in the barn they live in a few minutes (and sleeping or eating when I come back) is not the same as dragging a horse off a trailer and leaving them tied in the woods for a day. Heck my Icelandic LIVES in the barn by herself during the summer as she won't BY HER CHOICE join the others in the pasture.


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

Yogiwick said:


> Hondo, I'm honestly a little disappointed at these posts as you seems like a logical person who is aware of being a extreme novice and eager to learn more and not someone to make comments like that about something you admittedly don't understand. I also find that comment ignorant and offensive.
> 
> There are right and wrong ways to do things but just because if done incorrectly it CAN cause issues doesn't mean that no matter what it is wrong. My horses being left alone in the barn they live in a few minutes (and sleeping or eating when I come back) is not the same as dragging a horse off a trailer and leaving them tied in the woods for a day. Heck my Icelandic LIVES in the barn by herself during the summer as she won't BY HER CHOICE join the others in the pasture.


Heck, when we logged deep in the woods we'd load the old mare on the truck, drive out, unload and stay in a cabin for a month. She was the only horse there and tied outside, in the middle of the woods, by herself, all night long while we slept. Granted, our biggest predator is a black bear, and they usually stay away from people. And that mare was tied extremely solid. The first few nights she would get worked up but after that she adjusted. It got to the point where we'd load the harness in the truck, open the tail hate and she'd hop in by herself. She knew what was expected of her and she loved it. Once her initial fear was conquered, she was fine. Horses are very resilient animals, when we lost that mare we used several different horses on loan, some that were never off property before that day, and none were worse for wear. 

Biggest accident we ever had in the woods wasn't because a tied horse freaked out, but because the chain let go on one side of he harness and the whiffletree was flying around whacking that poor old guy in the flanks every time he jumped forward. He ran for almost a mile before he got hitched up. S**t happens with horses!


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

What I also got from that study was not that horses fake spooks, but rather that the horse appearing most calm and going by an obstacle without reacting often was the most frightened (highest heart rate). So we can't assume that a horse appearing calm but overriding their instinct for us is also calm inside. The horses allowed to follow their instinct to move away from the frightening object actually had a less strong physical fear reaction evidenced by a lower heart rate. So it is something to keep in mind, that our horses might be outwardly compliant but inwardly afraid.

The difference to me between a horse being tied and safe or tied and unsafe is the word "unattended." If I tie a horse and go into the tack room for a minute or into a portable bathroom, I can hear the horse get into trouble and go rescue him before serious harm occurs. But I'm not going to tie a horse and go drive to my home 5 minutes away to get a jacket, or go on a ride and leave the horse tied because I could come back and find that horse dead. 
A horse tied overnight while you are in a tent within hearing distance is not unattended, unless you drink so heavily you are unarousable. I've seen and rescued horses people have left tied in the woods, tied to trailers, and tied at shows unattended. There are many ways for horses to get into trouble, and I don't see this practice as being part of safe horse handling. 

I don't mean I've untied horses left alone just because I disagree with the practice. I mean the horses were thrashing and harming themselves and I had to save them because no one was around who knew anything about the horse. It is difficult enough to get a slip knot undone. I can't imagine ever tying a horse with no ability to release them quickly. 

If it comes down to risking a horse getting loose versus being caught up in a struggle with some immovable object, it is almost always preferable for the horse to get loose. If I am somewhere it is not acceptable at all for the horse to get loose, then I should put the horse in a pen, a stall, or not leave the horse unattended. There really are many good options such as portable small corrals which I've used on overnight rides or just bringing a person along to watch the horse when I can't be there. I tend to agree that it's similar to leaving kids or dogs unattended. It's a responsibility you sign up for, and maybe you have to pay for a babysitter sometimes or leave the dog at home, but you have to think ahead about safety.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Leaving a horse tied, in the barn, while you get his buddy, is not an un reasonable expectation for me
Leaving a horse tied, that I know ties, in the barn isle, while I do some house chores, or ride another horse, also not un reasonable
I really don't know how different types of spooks got into this conversation, as a buddy sour horse truly has an a nxienty about separation, having never been taught how to accept it-not much different then weaning a foal
Horses can learn to accept being tied, which does not mean you then skip using a quick release knot-you just don;t tie with a piece of string
Again, you also don;t tie a horse until he is 100% on giving to pressure, and those are the horses that you most likely had to help, Trottin.
A stall is also not 'natural' for a horse, yet we teach them to accept time being stalled
I don;t know, I have tied young horses up in stalls, after riding them for more then 30 years, and have yet to have a wreak. Know what, those horses have just a little more training, then one that never learns this acceptance, in my books anyway
You must have read a different study then I did, Trottin, as I don't think a horse can fake a heart rate-perhaps if they are yoga masters!Horse uses some object as an excuse to spook, feeling high, not too happy about leaving home,heart rate does not go up. Horse spooks when something suddenly jumps out-heart rate goes up
Still don;t know what that fake spook has to do with this post, as I never insinuated that horses fake buddy sourness!


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## Change (Jul 19, 2014)

I really shouldn't comment, but I will. Horses I've had in the past were usually trained to tie anywhere, anytime, and to darn near anything without any trouble. And left unattended for however long. I had one horse that was so abused that, if I hooked a trailer to the truck and didn't load him, he'd throw a fit! "Take me!!!" He had no issues with being alone in the woods, the desert, or in the middle of town. I'd ride into town (alone) to the Pizza place to meet up with non-riding friends, tie him to whatever was available and go inside to eat and hang out. 

The babies I trained learned to stand tied before they were even fully weaned.

I've had my current mare almost 3 years now. For the first 2 years she was here alone and had no issues going out alone. Yes, she was glad to see other horses in their pastures, but when I asked her to go on, she'd go. A year ago I got my gelding and now my mare is extremely buddy sour. She isn't afraid when I take her out alone; she's ****y! He'll pitch a fit being left behind - again, not because of fear, but because he wants to come with us. When I take him out alone, he's fine. He couldn't care less that the mare isn't with us. She, being left behind at home throws a fit. Again, that isn't fear-based. She's just buddy sour. She gets antsy when he goes behind the barn out of her sight!! But. I can tie her to anything and she'll stand there forever without the least bit of concern about where the gelding is. To her, being tied is 'safe.' The man I bought her from used her when he went hunting. He'd often tie her somewhere in the woods so he could stalk whatever he was hunting on foot. She might be tied there for hours while he was miles away tracking a deer or turkey or whatever. 

I am working on getting my gelding to be as relaxed and comfortable with being tied and being left alone. I think it is something every horse needs to know. Whether I choose to go on a week long trail/camping trip or just a few miles down the road to the local diner, I want my horse to equate being tied to being safe enough to nap! I sure don't want to spend every second I can't see/hear them is a state of constant worry!


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Hondo said:


> So why do we tie up with a quick release knot? Why not just tie up hard and fast, walk off and forget them? Heck, they're trained. They'll be ok. Right? Maybe, maybe not.
> 
> Ha ha ha. Real funny.



Simple reason - because it is easy to undo. A quick release is just a name for a certain knot. There is a Bellringers knot, a Beer knot, and a multiple other knots all designed for a purpose and the ability to easily untie them.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

"I don;t know, I have tied young horses up in stalls, after riding them for more then 30 years, and have yet to have a wreak."

Wait... didn't horses use to ALWAYS be tied whether in straight OR box stalls?

And completely O/T so not meant to start a tangent but in line with the heart rates/display of fear -both interesting and helpful advice, per vet- if a horse is colicking or otherwise in distress take the heart rate. The heart rate is a much more accurate indicator of pain level then a horses stoicism since as we know some horses you'd swear can't feel pain and others are drama queens. A horse with a low heart rate thrashing around is not as much concern as a horse with an extreme heart rate no matter how quiet.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

To me it is just an unnecessary risk. I want my dogs to be able to stay lying down indefinitely when I'm out of sight. I want them to be able to stay next to my side loose and expect them to not run off even if a deer runs by or if we are next to a busy highway. I want my horses to stand calmly and confidently tied wherever I put them without me worrying about them pulling back or panicking.

BUT I am not going to ever take the risk of leaving my dog off leash when a herd of deer is running by or next to a freeway. I am not going to leave my horses tied alone even when I am positive nothing will happen. If something unexpected happens, such as someone starting to shoot a gun twenty feet away from where my horses are tied, I'm not going to test their training to see if they're really as solid as I thought. Instead, I'm going to slip that knot and hold the lead in case they do have an unexpected reaction. To me it's just too risky and my animals are too important to me. I just believe it is safest to not leave horses unattended, and while people can justify their habit of leaving horses, there's no risk involved in my choice. It's a similar thing to never locking a stall door in case of a fire or always attaching the chains to your trailer. I've never had a fire in a barn, and I've never had a trailer hitch pop off, but it's the safest thing to do.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Yogi is correct, in hat years ago horses, especially heavy horses were kept tied when inside,
To me and any Brit, a stall is where a horse is tied a stable or loose box is where he is confined but loose. 

Horses tied in a stall were tied to a chock, a rounded heavy piece of wood. The rope went through the tie ring and onto the chock thus allowing the horse to lie down when he would need the full length of the lead rope but it kept the rope tight when standing.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

gottatrot said:


> If it comes down to risking a horse getting loose versus being caught up in a struggle with some immovable object, it is almost always preferable for the horse to get loose. If I am somewhere it is not acceptable at all for the horse to get loose, then I should put the horse in a pen, a stall, or not leave the horse unattended. There really are many good options such as portable small corrals which I've used on overnight rides or just bringing a person along to watch the horse when I can't be there. I tend to agree that it's similar to leaving kids or dogs unattended. It's a responsibility you sign up for, and maybe you have to pay for a babysitter sometimes or leave the dog at home, but you have to think ahead about safety.


I didn't really want to continue on this OT bit - just felt the need to address Hondo's remarks. But want to address this (respectfully & reasonably put) post too, just to give my take...

Speaking from many decades of experience, mostly with trail riding(or maybe hacking, as English call it, because it's often around town, not just in the bush), I can honestly say the only times I've ever had/seen horses pull back & panic is when they have not been taught properly to yield, or when they were otherwise unprepared for the situation they were put in. Whether humans are present or not. Oh and horses who have been tied to balers twine & learned to calmly pull back & break free. Horses that I know have been prepared well, I can honestly say, agree with Smilie because I've never had an issue. In decades of regular experience with a wide range of horses. 

Never the less, I agree totally that it should be given the same sort of consideration as leaving a child or dog unattended, and tying a horse solid, regardless of where, is potentially dangerous. The same sorts of safety - mental as well as physical - concerns and preparation should be addressed. Including if the horse/child isn't 'mature' enough.

As for safety of horses getting loose v's fighting the tie, hands down in my situation it is definitely dangerous for them to get loose - I never tie to something easily breakable or insecure. When you're out on a road with traffic, you definitely don't want a loose horse! And I'd love to have company more often, but I often ride alone. So having someone stay with the horse is not always possible. And it's just far from practical to carry fencing around with me everywhere, to make a yard at every place I might stop. Even if it were an option to always have a packhorse with me to carry it. Even if it were appropriate to put up yards on the side of a road in town for every half hour stop. So... there really AREN'T many good alternatives in my situation, even if I wanted to. My options are prepare the horse appropriately or don't leave the horse at all.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

The main thing that has to be dealt with in any horse is fear. Once that is managed, everything else is downhill.

Leaving a horse unattended with a non-break away halter puts the horse at risk. Usually nothing will happen to harm the horse. But sometimes it does and in fact has.

Leaving a horse tied unattended also puts the horse at risk. Usually nothing will happen to harm the horse. But sometimes it does and in fact has.

Somebody wants to leave their horse tied unattended they can, I won't take that risk with Hondo.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> Hondo
> "wrong', exactly the opposite, and I posted that link, regarding heart monitors and fake spooks , versus true fear spooks.
> I think the conclusion went something like this, 'endurance riders have long known that sometimes a horse just fakes a spook, thus heart monitors were put on horses, to see the difference
> In a true fear spook, that heart rate went up=not so in a fake spook
> ...


No no @Smilie, the study I'm talking about had nothing to do with which you speak. Haven't found the exact article yet but if you Google "fear heart rate horses experiment" you'll find a wealth of information and knowledge but nothing about horses faking fear.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I always say that to get over a fear you have to face it. Don't care if it is a human, dog or horse. 

Ideally a horse is started as a foal in learning to yield to pressure and to be tied. I well remember a vet coming and on seeing my foal standing quietly alongside her dam, him remarking "That's dangerous." At this time I would not have left her unattended. 
I thought I had left a prong in there but realised he was talking about he foal being tied. He had no answer when I asked him what age should they start being tied so I said, "I know, it's when they have heir first set of shoes on and let th farrier deal with it!"

He had no answer and I took great delight when the foal needed stitching, she had a nasty cut down her chest. She stood like a soldier, not moving whilst he applied local anaesthetic and stitched her up. She was a couple of weeks weaned. He remarked on how well she had stood and I told him that perhaps her learning to be tied had helped.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Did the baby truly learn not to fear being unable to escape being tied, or did the baby finally learn that any attempt at escape was futile and simply shut down? Horses that have shut down are much easier to work with than those that still have their original spirit intact.

I've seen the difference and it is real. And to me sad.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

No, she never shut down at all, she was a bold filly all the way. 

I recall leading her along a busy road when she was a yearling and she suddenly jumped forward startled. I then realised I had chosen to take her out when there was a cycle race going on. I stood her in a gateway and let several bikes go by and then walked on. She never flinched at them. 

I agree they can and will shut down but that is usually because of over rough and unfair handling. 

A friend of mine had a heavyweight cob that had been man handled. He was traumatised for a couple of years and then went the other way and would fight given half a chance.


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

Foxhunter said:


> Yogi is correct, in hat years ago horses, especially heavy horses were kept tied when inside,
> To me and any Brit, a stall is where a horse is tied a stable or loose box is where he is confined but loose.
> 
> Horses tied in a stall were tied to a chock, a rounded heavy piece of wood. The rope went through the tie ring and onto the chock thus allowing the horse to lie down when he would need the full length of the lead rope but it kept the rope tight when standing.


Funny story, we've always always used straight stalls, and had the oops moment of thinking every horse was used to a straight stall, because we're old fashioned. Yeah, biggest, ugliest battle we had was a 22 year old Arab TB gelding we bought, brought home, and assumed was trained to tie and found out otherwise. That horse had never, in his twenty two years, been tied. 

So we had a dilemma there, as we only had straight stalls and he was dangerous loose. What a battle when that animal got tied in there. But it was the only way. It needed to be done there, and now. 

Once he gave up and yielded to pressure it helped him tremendously in other areas and we never had another problem with him tying.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Home on the tobacco farm, where I grew up, our work horses were in tie stalls overnight, during the working seasons.
I think Loosie explained to concept and limits of tying very well, as did Foxhunter
So, Trottin, at shows where you had to tie to a trailer, had two horses along, you would be one of those people that needs to put the hrose left behind, into the trailer everytime, while you showed his buddy
On trail rides, would you then also be holding your horse during the lunch break, as I have seen some people do, as they can't trust to tie their horses while they eat
As has been said, 'horses have a great ability to adapt', and learning to accept standing tied, is an adaption required by many people, myself included
Hondo, I doubt Charlie or Smilie are faking relaxation, or lack of fear, when they stands tied, relaxed, one hind leg resting, as horses are prone to do when they are relaxed
Perhaps, read John lyons series, Communicating with cues, vol one i believe. There is an entire chapter devoted to making sure a horse is ready to be tied solid, and also dispels the myth that some horses just can't be expected to accept it, for whatever reason
Not that I ever was in support of the PMU industry, but those mares stood in tie stalls 24/7 with urine collecting harness, given short times off line, once a month or so
Last fall, while Rubix and Carmen were tied to the hitching rail overnight, out in the Panther camp ground, with no one else camped in those grounds, about two in the morning, we we work up to the sounds of running hoof beats
At first we though our horses were leaving. Nope, they were still standing at the hitching rail, but abunch of feral horses had come through the campground
Perhaps the tent, or the fact that my horse was wearing a zebra stripped winter blanket, and Rubix a red one, caused the stallion not to check out my mare
Had Carmen gotten loose, good luck in having gotten her back!


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Foxhunter said:


> I agree they can and will shut down but that is usually because of over rough and unfair handling.
> 
> A friend of mine had a heavyweight cob that had been man handled. He was traumatised for a couple of years and then went the other way and would fight given half a chance.


Well, this gives me a little hope at least. The little filly, the one I held on the first day of birth, is the one that has me on my tear.

I look at her now and instead of prancing lively up to me she just stands there as a deer in the headlights with an expression on her face that reads to me as, "What-did-I-do-wrong?"

I hope she gets the chance to raise a little h ee double L!

Yeah, @Smilie, I was 14 before we got a tractor. Two drafts before that. They spent time (side by side) in their separate stalls when working. Not tied as those stalls were closed, happily eating corn on the cob. Most of the time was spent "resting" out in the field though.

Because I just got my first saddle horse at 72 I think some people get the idea I'm a city kid that moved to the country. No, I was a country kid displaced to the city whose country never left. 

Hey, people all over the US and world leave kids in a car to make a mad dash to something. I may have done it myself. Usually not a problem. But sometimes it is a very very big problem. Absolutely would not do it today.

Someone wants to leave a horse tied up without knowing whether something is happening where the horse should be loosened, there's no law against it and I can't stop them. BUT I WILL NOT DO THAT WITH HONDO. No more than I would with a kid now. Hondo is that important to me.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

The first time I saw a horse really pull back was when I was at the riding school. 
The horse was use to being tied, and was tied to a hitching rail, concreted posts and two rails. The beginners ride was just mounted, the school owner was just getting on her horse and some of us were holding the lead rein children. 

Beau, for no obvious reason pulled back, he lifted the whole caboodle out the ground and took off - luckily he went into the arena. There's were displaced children all about, ponies having moved rapidly out the way when he took off dragging the rails with him. 

Very luckily no one was hurt including Beau. 

Another time the farrier was shoeing a young horse. He had had several sets of shoes and had always stood quietly and well. Farrier had removed the shoe and went to pick his foot up to start trimming when he pulled back. That horse was tied to a piece of string, had an old leather halter on and the rope was an old frayed one. Nothing broke. He went down and I think he bashed his head on the wall as he did. Farrier cut the string, enhorse thrashed and knocked himself out. 

I wasn't there, it was my day off but they called me. I was there well before the vet and the horse was still out cold. I was always told that if a horse is unconscious for more than thirty minutes, shoot it as it will be brain damaged. This vet disagreed. Six hours later he began to come around. Brain damage was obvious. He had also smashed one eye and was blind in that. 
A week later we took him out the stable he had been in. He was more uncoordinated outside amd when I went to lead him into hos own stable I lined him up, he was wobbly, he swerved as he got to the door and walked into the wall. 

Months later, probably a year on, the vet said the owner, a young girl, could start riding him. I went up the wall as there was no way that horse was safe. He was still uncoordinated. I had turned him back out and as we were 'discussing' his he safety of him being ridden, he started to canter off towards the other horses. He had to go through a wide open gateway and he looked fine, the faster he went the better his coordination, but at the last minute he swerved and smashed into the water tank next to the gate. 
The vet told the owner's mother that he should be euthanised amd he was the next day. 

So, no matter how careful you are or what you tie to, silly things still happen.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Heck, every time you get in a car and drive down the road, something can happen
Every time you take ahorse out on a rough trail, something can happen
Here it is not legal to carry a firearm in the Parks, Know of a friend that took a pack trip into the part, where one horse broke his leg. Since he had no firearm, he had to use an ax to hit the horse in the head and kill him
Every time I load my horses into a trailer, I know the risk that something could happen
I think I posted before, where I was hauling tot he mountains in late fall, 4x4 on snow packed hills, and spun out on the last hill, with trailer pulling me backwards, then going at right angles and over the edge. Only a clump of poplars , growing a bit down from that road edge, prevented myself and the hroses tumbling and rolling to our death
That does not mean I will quit hauling horses, nor driving a car, nor crossing a river, nor tying a horse,using common sense
I just got back from riding in our hay filed, on Carmen. To get there, down our drifted corridor, Carmen had to plunge through snow drifts, while I just stayed out of her way, riding on a loose rein, getting my *** out of the saddle
She has now been standing, happily, still saddled in the barn isle for about 45 mins. I am going out to un saddle her shortly.
Sorry, I am in the camp that believes this practice creates better horses, hroses that will adapt to periods of separation from both humans and other horses, while tied
Just because there is a risk, any horse might set back, given enough of a reason, does not mean I will quit tying horses, anymore then I will quit hauling them or driving down a road
How are you going to camp, Hondo ? Thought you were going to hobble Hondo.
Sure, you can watch him grazing, hobbled, but what are you going to do all night? Sleep out in the open, next to Hondo? I guess you can do that, as you never get the night time temps that we do in the mountains


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Lets also not forget the theme of this post, "buddy sour', in a hrose so buddy sour, it will not even accept a few minutes of separation, without freaking
Either left behind, or taken into the barn first, the hrose has a melt down. Sorry, I don't facilitate, 'joined at the hip' in horses, thus me needing to adapt, trying to take both horses in at once, versus addressing some of that buddy sour issue, having the horse learn to dampen that constant need of being with buddy
As Lbs asked, how in the heck do you ride horses like that. I have no intention of ponying a horse, unless that was in my game plan
We teach horses to adapt to riding off by themselves, to accept us on their back, to modify their flight response, so they don't spook, then whirl or bolt, so surely, asking them to accept standing tied, alone, in a comfort zone, should not exceed their ability to adapt. As Cheri used to say, 'horses are only as good as you expect them to be'.
Never ride a horse out alone, never ask a horse to ride out of his comfort zone, never ask a horse to over ride his natural in born flight reaction, to dampen that spook, then I guess you should also never ask him to accept standing tied, in his comfort zone, at least. Not my kind of horse-sorry!


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Hondo said:


> Did the baby truly learn not to fear being unable to escape being tied, or did the baby finally learn that any attempt at escape was futile and simply shut down? Horses that have shut down are much easier to work with than those that still have their original spirit intact.
> 
> I've seen the difference and it is real. And to me sad.


What in that situation would have caused the foal to shut down? Being tied immediately next to her mother and a human she trusted? Is this also abuse?

It's really not that easy to get an animal to truly shut down and be "broken" by one thing when well handled and raised. They really aren't that breakable..

If you tie properly there is no situation where the horse gets to that point-> "any attempt at escape was futile and simply shut down". Are you suggesting to just not tie period? How else would you do it? First it's without someone standing there and now it's just wrong regardless? Have you seen a horse panicking?


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Yogiwick said:


> What in that situation would have caused the foal to shut down? Being tied immediately next to her mother and a human she trusted? Is this also abuse?
> 
> It's really not that easy to get an animal to truly shut down and be "broken" by one thing when well handled and raised. They really aren't that breakable..
> 
> If you tie properly there is no situation where the horse gets to that point-> "any attempt at escape was futile and simply shut down". Are you suggesting to just not tie period? How else would you do it? First it's without someone standing there and now it's just wrong regardless? Have you seen a horse panicking?


Good Grief @Yoigwick;, is no one reading what I actually said but just imagining something they somehow think I may have said?

I tied up 5 YO Dragon just this afternoon while finally getting one front foot properly trimmed for the first time. I tie up Hondo often. Not for shoeing, he doesn't need it. But, for instance, when cattle are herded into the corral he gets tied while the crowd pens and squeeze chutes are worked.

I have no problem with anybody tying a horse. But I think leaving the horse tied, alone, without anyone to be aware should an emergency arise, is abusive.

Just because I believe it is abusive for children to be left alone in an automobile, it doesn't mean I think it's bad for children to ride in an automobile with adults.

C'mon peoples! Get real! For Pete's sake!

Edit: Yes yogi, I have seen a horse panic. I've also been on one that panicked. Have you never seen a horse panic?


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

^So why make that comment about the foal being tied with her dam and supervised?


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I request that you please please show me or provide the post # where I said ANYTHING at all about about a foal tied with her dam and supervised.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Your post on the last page in direct response to Foxhunter's post about tying the foal?

Not trying to start an argument, you know what you said...


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Well, things seems to have moved slightly off topic, but not as far as I've seen in other cases. At least it seems that enough of it was on topic to give the OP something to work with.

As for the discussion of tying horses on, which appears to be what the discussion moved to, I do find it all a bit amusing. From the best I can tell the different opinions are really the result of how people use their horses. I'll concede that the majority of horse owners in North America might be able to get away with not leaving their horses tied on without supervision, because they never in situations that would require it. Never leaving the stable/arena/paddock/pasture area, or trailering to trails for the day and then back home, or camping from trailers where they can carry portable paddocks, etc... (and even have sleeping quarters with beds.....hardly what I call camping ), and similar situations would allow people to get away with that. I'll confess that we never tied any of our horses in a "stall", but that's because what we called a stall was at least 10'x10' and only had a door for cases where we wanted to keep the horse contained for a few hours. Today I don't even have that. I have an acre in the front yard fenced in so I can shut them in there when the vet is due so I don't have to call them up and wait for them to mosey up from the back pastures. However, anyone who does any serious "old style" riding, where you go to town, visit friends, go camping (without trailers and the comforts of home) will discover very quickly that they better have a means of securing the horse. Unless of course the only place you camp or visit have containment areas for horses, but that means you're not "really" using them in the way I was meaning, but selectively limiting how or where you go.

If you camp, as I do or as smilie does, or as a select minority of riders do, then you must, of necessity, have horses that are trained and capable of be safely secured without panicking. It's not an option. As for horses being emotionally "broken" by it I defy anyone to show that either of my current mares (or any of my past mounts if they were all still around) are mentally "broken" :rofl:. 

I mean we could get ridiculous about it. I've had people ask me to train their horses after watching my horse stand still with me on their back for over an hour while I had a conversation with some people sitting in their yard. Or after watching me saddle my horse after camping in their field while she wasn't tied on to anything ("ground tied" with reins just hanging), or trimming my horses feet while they weren't tied to anything and just standing and giving me their feet when "asked for". Some people are just in awe of seeing a horse that's actually been "trained". It's not magic. It's not mysterious. It's certainly not a bad thing for the horse (or owner). It makes the horse's life easier, because they understand the situation and are ok with it. Makes my life easier just because I'm inherently lazy and would rather spend more time training them better so I don't have to work as much later 

I'll post some photos. 
1st is my older mare tied off (securely) at a friends place (the picture was take later, as I was about to mount up, to get a picture of the saddle for someone). I'd hardly think she looks panicked or beaten down emotionally (more like "you're back...are we leaving now?"...although I doubt horses have thought processes like that).
2nd is the same mare ground tied, which is what she was for being saddled and standing while I brought out the bags with the camping gear and feed, before attaching them to the saddle.
If I didn't train them to be safely secured it would severely restrict the riding that I do and that wouldn't be much fun for me. I'm sure the same is true for anyone who does any serious riding that involves going places and doing things from horse back which can often require that we be away from our mounts for periods of time (especially when I bed down for the night while camping ).

If we use a horse for anything other than a pasture ornament (and I never saw the point in that) then we must teach them to overcome what nature instilled in them to resist. Horses were not designed by nature, or intended to be ridden, but we teach them to accept it. That same is true of everything we teach them to do for our benefit. We impose our will on them so that they will do what we require of them. We do the same with any animal we train. If we didn't then we wouldn't be able to make use of them.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Yogiwick said:


> Your post on the last page in direct response to Foxhunter's post about tying the foal?
> 
> Not trying to start an argument, you know what you said...


Yes, I know what I said. Problem is, you don't. I simply did not and would not say what you somehow have conjured that I said.

This is not something that has to be theorized about. If it's there, it's there. If not, then not. I won't hunt for something I know is not there.

So again, show me. There's a little number in the upper right corner if each post.

Number please.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

its lbs not miles said:


> have horses that are trained and capable of be safely secured without panicking


You're off the rails again. I'm not in any way talking about not training a horse to be capable of being tied without panicking. NO NO NO! I am not saying that in any way shape or form.

I am saying that if they are tied, someone needs to be available to release them in case something in the environment, (lion?), does panic them. They can and have killed themselves under those circumstances.

I have camped with Hondo. I am keenly aware of his every movement just as I was with my children when sleeping. I didn't stay awake every night all night with the children but I was available if something happened.

And I know if something happened to panic your horse when camping you'd be up in a flash.

That is not leaving a horse alone and unsupervised in the terms of which I was speaking.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Hondo said:


> You're off the rails again. I'm not in any way talking about not training a horse to be capable of being tied without panicking. NO NO NO! I am not saying that in any way shape or form.
> 
> I am saying that if they are tied, someone needs to be available to release them in case something in the environment, (lion?), does panic them. They can and have killed themselves under those circumstances.
> 
> ...


But you don't ride to visit friends (where we don't sit down with the horses to share lunch ), which is what you see with that 1st photo. A horse, tied on, with no one around (at least not until I came back when I was ready to mount up and ride off). Most of my experience has shown that with the possible exception of a bear (and I can't even swear to that) I know of few animals that my horses would completely lose their cool over. Certainly not anything as small as a Mastiff spooks them. I've had them kick a large dog over 5' through the air which sent it off and pain and the other two dogs running to the other side of the road to continue barking at a safe distance. While we do have bears in the state I've yet to hear of any cases where they risk encounters with horses if they can avoid them.

Now I'll concede that if someone came barreling by on a motorcycle while my horse was tied securely she might be inclined to panic. However, the cyclist would be extremely hard pressed to ride at all where I secure my horses, let alone come by at any speed and they'd be heard long before they posed any concern, if any, to the horse.

So no, I'm not "off the rails":rofl:. If a horse cannot be safely secured without being "baby sat", then it's lacking certain training. As I said, it might not be a problem for most people since their riding doesn't put them in situations where they horse needs that level of training. I've often worked with horses that lacked that training and the owner discovers that they want it. If you don't then that's fine and I hope (for your horse's sack) that you never end up in a situation where you do need it, because if you do then you'll just have to hope that Hondo manages to deal with it anyway (not unheard of for some horses). My horses have to have it. For their safety and my sanity it's not an option. If I ended up with Hondo he would, among other things, learn to be tied on without being baby sat, because that's something my horses must be able to do. Never make the mistake of thinking that because what you do with horses allows them to get by with less it means that all horses can get by with that same level of training. A horse is (or should be) trained to meet whatever requirements are going to be placed on them. I don't train my horses to jump (even if the older one does sometimes), but if they ended up with a cross country competitor they would learn to jump. Most horses are never trained and conditioned to ride 20+ miles a day, carrying about 20% of their weight and camping "from the saddle" so their owners never have to worry about that training. Mot horses are never hobbled, so that training isn't needed for them. But for the horses that are used in ways that require it it's not an option. With you, Hondo will never need to know and do many of the things that my horses must, of necessity, be able to do. Therefore, he doesn't have the need to be trained or conditioned to that level. Just as my horses will never be paraded round a show ring for judges so they'll never need to know what's required for doing that (and scoring well). We train for what we need or want. Don't ever think that what you train your horse for will meet the needs of others who make very different requirements of their horse. As for them panicking. That's why we train them not to. My mares learn to trust me. And as is typical of most cases, ones with a "lead mare" mentality tend to be the toughest since they are only use to trusting themselves and not others, but they can be trained too.

You're a bit "off the rails" by thinking that all a horse's natural inclinations need to be continually catered to. If you saddle a horse you are violating it's natural inclination. If you ride them you're violating it even more. Far more than teaching them to be secured calmly. EVERYTHING you teach Hondo to do that's not part of what he would be doing in nature (which is eating, sleeping, drinking, hanging out with other horses, walking around a lot and having "bodily functions") if a violation of his "natural order". Teaching him to let you ride him and not run away in complete panic if a plane flies overhead (and throwing you off since only predators should be getting on his back) is no worse than teaching him to not panic over being secured while you go eat lunch inside. You might not need that level of training, but it's not worse.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Hondo said:


> You're off the rails again. I'm not in any way talking about not training a horse to be capable of being tied without panicking. NO NO NO! I am not saying that in any way shape or form.
> 
> I am saying that if they are tied, someone needs to be available to release them in case something in the environment, (lion?), does panic them. They can and have killed themselves under those circumstances.
> 
> ...


But you do realize that everyone is agreeing with that?

Sounds like the question is what is considered supervised vs unsupervised. And I assure you if a horse wants to cause an issue then an issue will be caused regardless of where the human is. Just because you're there doesn't mean that something won't happen or that you'll be able to fix it if it does.

In fact I know may people whose horses are worse when they're around, but that's a topic for a different thread!


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Yogiwick said:


> But you do realize that everyone is agreeing with that?
> 
> Sounds like the question is what is considered supervised vs unsupervised. And I assure you if a horse wants to cause an issue then an issue will be caused regardless of where the human is. Just because you're there doesn't mean that something won't happen or that you'll be able to fix it if it does.


 @Smilie and @its lbs not miles both seemed to think saying a horse that is not left unsupervised does not know how to stand calmly when tied. Like @Hondo, I do expect my horses to know how to tie solidly and not pull back. I can and do tie them anywhere. But I don't see how being there in the vicinity and hearing distance means you don't truly know if they are trained to tie. 

For one thing, I don't trust other humans. Especially in a show environment or a busy place like the beach where I often see horses tied alone. Someone's kid might come up and stick their fingers between your horse's teeth and sue you. Some unbalanced person might start torturing your horse. 

When I show, I put my horses in stalls because I wouldn't want them standing all day tied in the busy parking lot or aisleway with idiots driving too close or letting their horses bite or kick mine, etc. 

We've ridden more than 20-30 miles, we've spent the night. Sure you can get in a car accident any day, but that doesn't mean I give up on wearing a seat belt. My close horse friends have a culture of not leaving horses unattended, and it's just second nature to us. If we have a bunch of horses tied to trailers, one person will stay to watch them while the others go off for awhile. All the horses are trained to tie and we don't expect them to pull back. We will pack our lunches and tie the horses and eat on the trail, but we don't hike a mile away from the horses to eat. If we did, we'd leave someone with the horses.

Horses are extremely accident prone and I don't trust them for a minute. I make sure they are well trained, and I also expect them to fall down, find some way to strangle themselves or choke on some unlikely object, get a leg caught in a space smaller than is possible, and cut themselves wide open on a smooth surface to try to bleed to death. The ones I know prefer to do these incredible feats when you're not keeping an eye on them.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

When I go to breed shows, stay over night, yest I have stalls
However, stalls are not available at many one day venue , like all breed /schooling type shows.In that case, I do tie to the trailer
And, yes, have tied horses on trail rides and then gone on foot, to sit by a blind, up a mountain slope,where elk come out at dusk
Some pictures of my hroses being' abused' I also don't trail ride where there are crowds, like on the beach, as that kinda negates the reason I trail ride in the first place-WILDERNESS< lack of people!

Hitching rail in the arena I ride at.






Yup, show horse Charlie also ties on trails



waiting for us to come back



Tied for the night


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

We have also leg picketed horses, and the grassy area is often not where the tent is

We are packed in at least 2 days of riding, so while we pack oats, there is no way to pack forage, unless you took several pack horses


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

gottatrot said:


> @*Smilie* and @*its lbs not miles* both seemed to think saying a horse that is not left unsupervised does not know how to stand calmly when tied. Like @*Hondo*, I do expect my horses to know how to tie solidly and not pull back. I can and do tie them anywhere. But I don't see how being there in the vicinity and hearing distance means you don't truly know if they are trained to tie.
> 
> For one thing, I don't trust other humans. Especially in a show environment or a busy place like the beach where I often see horses tied alone. Someone's kid might come up and stick their fingers between your horse's teeth and sue you. Some unbalanced person might start torturing your horse.
> 
> ...


 
No, I'm saying that when I finish training I expect my horse(s) to be secured, unable to get "free", and behave themselves while I'm no where near them. I might be on the phone in the house, having lunch or play cards with a friend. I might be in a deer stand 150 yards away. I might be anywhere, but I'm not near enough to be babysitting the horse. I might have to leave her while I do some shopping. Doesn't matter what I'm doing. She's expected to accept being tied on for however long it takes. If I'm camping and sleeping that means from the time I secure her until I wake up, feed her, break camp, get packed, saddle her, load her and mount up for the days ride.

Hondo thinks a horse always should have someone within monitoring distance "just in case", because what it something happens. What if something happens while their out in the pasture while you're at work or sleeping. As Hondo likes to say "it has happened". In point of fact I've seen more horses suffer injuries while not tied off and running free in a pasture. Sometimes from their own stupidity. Sometimes because another horse's actions caused the accident. Doesn't matter why. So based on the number of horses I've seen injured while unrestrained, which is more than I've seen injured from being secured, we should babysit our horses all the time no matter what they're doing :rofl:.

I'll babysit, monitor, and take the time while I'm training them. Once they're trained and demonstrate that they're ready I expect them to no longer need me "holding their hoof". Just like when I ride them I expect them to not bolt and run if a helicopter passes by. That's the point of training them to meet my needs. We don't train them to meet their needs. All they need is to no longer be kept in a domestic state, but that wouldn't be what we want so they learn to deal with that. If someone wishes to always be in ear shot of their horse that is certainly their privilege. If they never want to tie their horse so secure that it cannot breakaway that is also their privilege. Just as it is my privilege and right to train my horses to accept being restrained in a manner that prevents them from escaping, because it keeps them safer than allowing them to do otherwise. The last thing I need is my horse spooking along, getting loose and bolting out of camp for home which would certainly put her out on the highway. Especially if it's at night. A black horse on the road at night is almost certain to end up getting hit by a fast moving vehicle. The concept of "I'll hear if something goes wrong and be able to reach them and do something about it" is SERIOUSLY flawed (it's a pipe dream). I can promise you that if there's a thunderstorm (not so unusual) and you're sleeping (we get use to the thunder and sleep through it) you are extremely unlikely to hear if your horse panics unless you happen to have a "screamer" which I've found to be pretty rare in my experience (I've never had a horse that was very vocal when panicking). So you'll be blissfully unaware until you hear (if you're lucky) the pounding of hooves as the horse runs away to where ever it feels it might find safety. Sorry, but I think I'll stick with my system since as I said earlier it's best for their safety and my sanity. I train them in order to allow me to secure them so that they cannot get away. It's worked well for 100+ years in my family. Keeps my horses safe without problems so I think I'll stick with it. :smile:


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

^Out of all the times we have heard a ruckus out at the barn and gone out to check (never with any exciting conclusions) the time there were 3 tired horses standing in their open stalls with the fence down and the fourth (which by the way is the herdbound one going with the whole "can't be alone" thing) grazing outside our bedroom windows on the yard ripped apart by lots and lots of hooves having a party.....we found out when we went out in the morning. And while the barn isn't that far it would have to be quite the ruckus to wake us out of a sound sleep.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

its lbs not miles said:


> (for your horse's sack)


Hondo's a gelding:rofl:

Hondo means the world to me. My first, and likely my last and only horse ever. I would be devastated if something that I could have prevented happened to him. I am unwilling to take the chance and take a dark view of others that are willing, in that respect.

If someone is unwilling to visit with me where I can make certain my horse is safe, where there is no other means available other than tying, I'll stay with my horse and they can go inside. I don't want to visit with them anyhow.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Yogiwick said:


> ^Out of all the times we have heard a ruckus out at the barn and gone out to check (never with any exciting conclusions) the time there were 3 tired horses standing in their open stalls with the fence down and the fourth (which by the way is the herdbound one going with the whole "can't be alone" thing) grazing outside our bedroom windows on the yard ripped apart by lots and lots of hooves having a party.....we found out when we went out in the morning. And while the barn isn't that far it would have to be quite the ruckus to wake us out of a sound sleep.


I'm still waiting for either an apology for your accusations or support for them. Number please.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I have a horse that will happily go away from other horses, when ridden or in a trailer but gets hysterical if other horses are taken away from her and she's left on her own in a field or in a stable
She has always been 100% to solid tie. If I wanted too I could leave her tied all day and she'd do nothing about it but if she was left like that when all the other horses were taken from her sight she'd go into a complete meltdown and hurt herself. I know this because I've tried it after someone suggested it as a 'cure'. It did not cure her, if anything it made her worse.
Just because a horse will solid tie or because some horses will roll over and give in quietly when you do this to try to cure the buddy sour thing it would be naïve to imagine it will work for them all.
If only life with horses was that simple.......................


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## 6gun Kid (Feb 26, 2013)

@Hondo What, exactly, is the point of tying a horse if you are going to be around "monitoring" anyway? Tying a horse is necessary so you can do other things when you are out and about. I ride my horse when I am out hunting, but I certainly don't tie him to the deer stand. That would be ridiculous. You are waiting on an apology? Really? When you are the one who has insulted generations upon generations of horsemen/women with your "dark view" of them.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

jaydee said:


> I have a horse that will happily go away from other horses, when ridden or in a trailer but gets hysterical if other horses are taken away from her and she's left on her own in a field or in a stable
> She has always been 100% to solid tie. If I wanted too I could leave her tied all day and she'd do nothing about it but if she was left like that when all the other horses were taken from her sight she'd go into a complete meltdown and hurt herself. I know this because I've tried it after someone suggested it as a 'cure'. It did not cure her, if anything it made her worse.
> Just because a horse will solid tie or because some horses will roll over and give in quietly when you do this to try to cure the buddy sour thing it would be naïve to imagine it will work for them all.
> If only life with horses was that simple.......................


+

If you don't raise a horse yourself, then you can inherit'baggage,and then I guess you adopt the attitude of living with it, or trying to go for the cure.
Far as I;m concerned, if you raised a horse from day one, and that horse can't be tied up, alone, at least in his comfort zone, then you better look at your training program
This is one of the reasons I preferred to ride hroses I trained from day one, as I knew what I had
The mare I bought off the track, halter pulled like crazy. She also reared and went over backwards, if you simply just tried to lead her at time
She would sit down, the minute you tied her, and if that halter held, would then accept being tied. 
On trail rides, I left her loose in camp, knowing she would not leave the other horses, and knowing she would self destruct, if tied. So, yes, I compromised, because her holes weren't worth fixing. I had young horses coming up, that I could trail ride-horses not messed up.
I then put her in the broodmare band, and she produced some very nice minded babies, that I rode, that tied, without a problem
Her issues were man made.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I have had horses that came to me 'buddy sour' that were 'cured' of the problem (without ever needing to leave them tied up) 
On the other hand I worked with one mare that my boss bred himself, was happily solid tied from an early age, showed 'in hand' as a youngster and broke and ridden with no problems at all but would never stay on her own without company. She was sold to a top horseman and she never changed
If I'd only ever had a 'certain type of horse' then I'm sure that I would think exactly the way you do
But I am not that person


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

6gun Kid said:


> @Hondo What, exactly, is the point of tying a horse if you are going to be around "monitoring" anyway? Tying a horse is necessary so you can do other things when you are out and about. I ride my horse when I am out hunting, but I certainly don't tie him to the deer stand. That would be ridiculous. You are waiting on an apology? Really? When you are the one who has insulted generations upon generations of horsemen/women with your "dim view" of them.


Ditto. Have gone on elk hunts with hubby, and sure don't take the hroses up to that blind, on a mountain slope!
The idea to teach a horse to tie, versus just ground tying, which I also use at times, is so that you can leave that horse!
That does not mean you just take a horse that has never learned this acceptance, done correctly over time, but as in anything else, have the horse both accept being tied, and to feel comfortable being tied
Horses are creatures of habit. You, the human, are there to shape those habits, to make a horse a useful, secure citizen


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Alder said:


> Hi, I'm an oldie and a newbie (to horses), and here's my first question (yay! love this site);
> 
> I have two horses, 12yr old 'D' (dominant) and a 6yr old 'B' (baby).
> They only go in the barn for the farrier, so every 6-8 weeks. B is buddy sour. I have tried various options for leading them into the barn and tying them up, but I don't know what is best. The stall is open to the outside, with nowhere near the door to tie them up.
> ...


Back to the 'main program'
'Baby' is six years old, and freaks in the small space of time, it takes to either lead her into the barn first, or if she is left out for a moment, before being led in
Of course the most simple solution would be B, , esp if you only try leading them in separate when you need to-as for farrier work
I gotta ask, do you really want your horses to be like this, and also asked, how in the heck do you even ride them?
I think the answer was, only D can be ridden, but only in sight of the other horse. 
Maybe some think that is okay, something you can live with, but not in my books
Hense the advise to spend some time, trying B up, alone, in a safe place, while also wondering, what purpose does Baby have?


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

That horse knows exactly how YOU feel. If you take horse, give it the "poorbabyhoneydarlinsweerheartbeenabuseddontbeScaredBaby it's ok" Line, it will never be trained to be alone. If the "stand up quietly, NO, I said quietly" line is adopted, then the horse learns that it needs to stand quietly and accept the facts, because that is what you did. 

We do not break their spirit by teaching them to accept our leadership!!!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

greentree said:


> That horse knows exactly how YOU feel. If you take horse, give it the "poorbabyhoneydarlinsweerheartbeenabuseddontbeScaredBaby it's ok" Line, it will never be trained to be alone. If the "stand up quietly, NO, I said quietly" line is adopted, then the horse learns that it needs to stand quietly and accept the facts, because that is what you did.
> 
> We do not break their spirit by teaching them to accept our leadership!!!



Cute: "poorbabyhoneydarlinsweerheartbeenabuseddontbeScaredBaby it's ok"

kind of reminds me of "supercalifragilisticexpialidocious". about as much pertinence to this discussion, too.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

6gun Kid said:


> @Hondo What, exactly, is the point of tying a horse if you are going to be around "monitoring" anyway? Tying a horse is necessary so you can do other things when you are out and about. I ride my horse when I am out hunting, but I certainly don't tie him to the deer stand. That would be ridiculous. You are waiting on an apology? Really? When you are the one who has insulted generations upon generations of horsemen/women with your "dark view" of them.


There goes another off the rail without reading or understanding the context of what was and wasn't said.

I was accused of criticizing Foxhunter for training her colt (not by Foxhunter) to tie solid in the presence of her dam and herself, which I did not criticize her for and would do myself. My accuser assured me I had. I simply asked her to either give me the post # or to apologize.

Leaving a horse tied solid with no one around should something go wrong is a very minor level of abuse compared to others that generations upon generations upon generations have heaped upon the horse just because the horse is so extremely accommodating to us humans. 

If you happen across any generations you are very welcome to please relay my sentiments.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Here's a thought I really find strange.

I have read so many posts from so many people that to have a horse you just almost have to have two. Or have your horse with someone else's horse. That they are so genetically herd animals that if they don't have a pasture buddy, they will actually suffer physically for it.

Hondo is my only horse at the moment, but I've been providing feed for two horses that don't belong to me just so he won't be stressed from being alone.

:eek_color: I think I just had an epiphany:eek_color:

All I have to do is to train Hondo to tie solid and remain calm when alone.

I'll just leave him tied up outside my door except when I go riding.

I won't need another horse.

So simple.


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## DimSum (Mar 28, 2012)

Thinking this thread needs to get back on track for a minute, though the discussion is quite...interesting.



Alder said:


> ...
> They only go in the barn for the farrier, so every 6-8 weeks.


What caught my eye was the above statement. A place to start fixing "B" s anxiety IMO would be to bring them in more often. After all, you can't really train a horse to cope with a situation that you only work on at 6-8 week intervals. That having been said I'd like some more data before I offer any ideas  if Alder doesn't mind answering some questions.

The OP said she feels B is scared so what does B do if left in the pasture? Is the fencing secure? Does she call or throw a fit? What does D do if left alone in the pasture? Is the OP able to work with them every day? Does the OP have someone to help if needed? What is the set up of the place-is it only a barn and pasture or is there a riding area with good fencing?


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## Tazzie (Nov 8, 2011)

Hondo said:


> Did the baby truly learn not to fear being unable to escape being tied, or did the baby finally learn that any attempt at escape was futile and simply shut down? Horses that have shut down are much easier to work with than those that still have their original spirit intact.
> 
> I've seen the difference and it is real. And to me sad.


Since I literally just read this thread, here you go Hondo. This was your exact comment after Foxhunter talked about teaching that baby to tie, where you basically accused her. That is how I read it and how I'm sure many others read it.

My mare used to tie amazingly well. Until I let her go to a friend where she learned that if she pulled just right she could break her breakaway halter. SO MUCH FUN on a horse that is already too smart for her own good. Retraining is even more fun when I don't have things such as a hitching rail or a sturdy tree. We use the horse trailer. We also routinely tie her up at shows and I go into our tack stall to change (since I tack her up and THEN get into my show clothes.)

I see ZERO issue with tying up a horse that KNOWS how to do it. You use the argument of kids being left attended. Well, hand over the world's worst parent award!!! I allow my children to play OUTSIDE, often ALONE while we supervise them (best we can) as we make dinner.

As far as the topic on being buddy sour, it's going to take some work. But it really needs to be done. Never have I ever been so thankful I can grab my mare and NO ONE cares in her field. I wish you tons of luck working with them.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Hondo said:


> There goes another off the rail without reading or understanding the context of what was and wasn't said.
> 
> I was accused of criticizing Foxhunter for training her colt (not by Foxhunter) to tie solid in the presence of her dam and herself, which I did not criticize her for and would do myself. My accuser assured me I had. I simply asked her to either give me the post # or to apologize.
> 
> ...


This seems to be turning into 'bash Hondo' 

I for one did not think that I was criticised for tying a foal alongside its dam. I felt the question asked was genuine amd do not see how anyone could have read it otherwise.

I can see where Hondo is coming from and can understand his concern for traumatising a horse. 

Please read what is written and not just jump to conclusions because you have skimmed a post.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> Here's a thought I really find strange.
> 
> I have read so many posts from so many people that to have a horse you just almost have to have two. Or have your horse with someone else's horse. That they are so genetically herd animals that if they don't have a pasture buddy, they will actually suffer physically for it.
> 
> ...


Hondo, that is about as stupid as saying you need to tie a horse so he rides out alone
Standing tied, for a given llenght of time, even long enough to bring a buddy into the barn is not un reasonable expectations , and as nothing to do, same as tying, concerning how that horse lives full time in turn out
If you read along, you will note how I often recommend a horse has an equine companion, so he can actually rest, sleep, relax, and has nothing to do with accepting periods of being tied, being separated


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I hate buddy sour horses and mostly for good reason. It can lead to many problems and sometimes be a danger.

An older couple had two horses, a mare and a gelding. Both good well trained animals. They were kept together and always ridden together. To the owners it didn't matter as they always rode together. 

We were out fox hunting one day, had a heck of a good run. Ended up outside some forestry ground and because no one was expecting to get over that far the gate was locked. 

The gate was high, around 4'6" forming a shallow V to it was a much lower style. The Field was riding past the gate, turning and popping over the style. In the waiting the mare got left behind the gelding and when she saw him disappearing into the trees she just charged the gate and chested it in a sudden stop. The order went off over her head like a human cannon ball and landed face first on a flint track. The ensuing mess was t at all funny. Serious head and facial injuries. All could have been prevented if they had ridden out alone on occasion or when out together, gone in different directions meeting up again later. 

Not the only time I have seen accidents because a horse hates to be apart from its friend.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> Hondo, that is about as stupid as saying you need to tie a horse so he rides out alone


I'm glad you thought it stupid. It was intended to be stupid. So what is the reasonable time limit you personally set to leaving a horse alone unattended while solid tied?

@Tazzie, as you yourself posted and as Foxhunter explained, I only asked. And Foxhunter answered the procedure that I have already said I would happily do myself. 

I don't mind being a target of bashing. I feel I'm saving some other.


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

Realistically, all bickering aside, a horse should be expected to stay tied for however long it takes to do whatever you need to do which is the reason he's unattended. 

Yes, something bad could happen. Something bad can happen anytime you're near a horse. But he should have enough training to be reasonably safe while being tied. With or without his buddy, period. Regardless of whatever anyone's personal preferences and opinions are about leaving a horse tied alone.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Hondo
I don't mind being a target of bashing. I feel I'm saving some other.[/QUOTE said:


> if only it worked that way.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Reasonable length, depends on stage of training,where, and when, until those things become non issues
I have had horses have wreaks out in the field, as we have bush, and the only horse i lost to an injury, slipped on ice, and banged her head on the frozen ground
Horses can't break a fall, putting hands out
Happened while I was in the hospital, with six broken ribs-guess it could have been how and where hubby placed those hay piles, but you can't watch horses 24/7
I agree with Foxhunter, far as how dangerous extreme buddy sour issues can be, as per my previous post, where I was put over the edge of a drop off, by a horse that had to be up with his barn mate, thus charged by several hroses that were inbetween her and her beloved, and just picked my hrose to kick out at, as she charged past
If you have to have a slight risk that horse might get injured learning to tie, then it is acceptable risk. A solid front, tied with a body rope, on a rubber matt, would minimize, if not eliminate any risk, and that in turn creates less risk for the human, handling or riding that horse


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

WhattaTroublemaker said:


> Realistically, all bickering aside, a horse should be expected to stay tied for however long it takes to do whatever you need to do which is the reason he's unattended.


Do you really mean this??

Well then! Maybe my epiphany stands. It would really be convienient to just leave Hondo tied at my door. I'd probably get more exercise and he probably would too. Plus I wouldn't have to go get him. I'll pull his saddle when not riding though no matter what people tell me.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Here's a story about the old days. From a good friend who is a certified cowboy. Used to be the designated rider on wild horse races (of which I disapprove and consider abuse).

That said, this guy is not the abusive type. A really really nice guy. About a year or two younger than me. He said he put his last horse down about 10 years ago. He'd quit riding as a result of balance from a stroke.

One of the high lights of his riding life he likes to tell about is being chosen as one of many to go help round up around 350 wild horses on a huge ranch in (wyoming or montanna? i forget).

Last story he told me about them culling the herd way down and then cutting out about 120 4 to 6 year olds, about by guess.

They were to auction them off and the day before the cowboys had to tie them up around a large corral. They made quite a racket, rearing, falling down, whinnying, etc. They just left them. All night. First time tied. They all went to bed and slept well.

No horses died and non had PTS injuries. They were all standing calm the next morning.

They were all purchased by various people, loaded up and hauled away. He did mention that either the people that bought them were "hands" or they had hired "hands". Which by the look and how he said it meant the horses didn't all lead quietly into the trailers.

So there you go. Generations and generations. No horses died.

But the more and more I'm around horses full time I am impressed that regardless of their sheer strength and remarkable athleticism, they are emotionally very tender and easily damaged.

No way to tell, but my belief is that at least most of those horses underwent serious emotional damage from which many may never have recovered from.

The way he described how placid they were the next morning could have been a textbook description on flooding.

And my friend has no idea of what flooding is and no idea that I know. You could tell he just thought it was a good way to do things. I didn't say a thing. No reason to. He hasn't had a horse for ten years and is not likely to get another.

But on this forum, there are several readers that never post, some are not even members. I don't know what the ratio is but there are always a huge amount more reading than posting.

So when I see something that I think hurts horses, I feel it incumbent upon me to speak. And I shall.

I do not want to insult the generations and generations that did not have the knowledge that we have today. A lot of horses have been hurt by improper trimming and shoeing by well meaning people. Same with saddle fit. Same with various treatments. I'm not going to criticize how the dentist performed their work 100 years ago. But that said I sure "ain't" gonna go to one that is still using 100 year old technology. Ouch! It was bad enough 60 years ago when I was 15.

There is so much more known about human trauma than would never have been guessed about. PTSD. Who would have thought? Well, we have brain MRI's that tell us important stuff now.

So why leave the horse stuck back in the 100 year old knowledge about the horse, much of which is wrong? Not because our Grand Fathers were mean, or stupid, or didn't care. They just didn't know what we now know.

It is incumbent upon us to use the very best information that we have today, just as our grandfathers did when they were alive.

This may cause a little ruckus, but I personally think it a bit irresponsible to just give a wave saying, "that's the way Grand Dad did it so that's good enough for me".


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Smilie said:


> I gotta ask, do you really want your horses to be like this, and also asked, how in the heck do you even ride them?
> I think the answer was, only D can be ridden, but only in sight of the other horse.


These two things don't necessarily correlate. Like @jaydee, I've worked with a few horses that have situational separation issues. It all depends on what makes them feel insecure. Such as a horse that will willingly leave other horses but doesn't want others to leave him. Or vice versa. I've met horses that get anxious about being led away from their herd, but will calmly be ridden away once they are tacked up. 

Some horses are only anxious about leaving and going into a barn or stall, but not about leaving and going somewhere outside. Some horses just get anxious if there is a vet or farrier there but not coming in the barn alone for other things. One horse I know would leave horses to go alone over eventing courses and be fine, but he didn't like horses to leave him behind in the woods. 

So often we only have to deal with some situations where the horse dislikes being separated, and need to slowly desensitize them to those things rather than the more rare situation where the horse can't leave another horse at all.

There are many reasons to tie horses that have nothing to do with leaving them unattended, and there is no need to leave a horse unattended to check and see if they are completely trained to tie. My horses are trained so that I could leave them tied unattended in an emergency, and they would be safe. 

At my barn the safety culture is to not leave horses tied or loose on the property unattended, and to not leave unbreakable halters on. One boarder came and would turn her horse out with a nylon halter on, but she gave up because all the boarders kept taking it off when they saw her horse wearing it. She complained but no one was on her side. We said if she got a breakaway halter we would stop doing it. She moved.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Hondo said:


> Hondo's a gelding:rofl:
> 
> Hondo means the world to me. My first, and likely my last and only horse ever. I would be devastated if something that I could have prevented happened to him. I am unwilling to take the chance and take a dark view of others that are willing, in that respect.
> 
> If someone is unwilling to visit with me where I can make certain my horse is safe, where there is no other means available other than tying, I'll stay with my horse and they can go inside. I don't want to visit with them anyhow.


I'm sure Hondo would be just fine without you, but there is no reason you MUST leave him if you don't want to. No one cares!! The problem comes when you tell people they are abusing their (obviously very happy and cared for) horses because you feel strongly about something that you do with your personal horse. THEN you go on to make multiple sarcastic and nasty comments on the topic, isn't it much more productive to stick with the facts?

As far as a # this is a little ridiculous, yes I ignored you because I was hoping the petty argument, that I specified I was not trying to start, would stop. AND you even quoted and responded to my post in which I copied and pasted what YOU said from post #56 so obviously you have the # right there if you were so worried about that.

I would be more then happy to apologize to you except I did not accuse you of anything? Nor did I even say anything about you so unsure how you are jumping to that conclusion and now demanding an apology?? Very confused on that. I did not tell you what you said, I simply asked for clarification on your thoughts on tying a foal with her dam. From what you said you seemed to have a problem with it. If I misunderstood (and honestly rereading that 10 times I continue to get that impression and I was not alone) then that's on me but nothing said was accusing or stating what you said; simply asking for clarification if that was what you meant and why.



6gun Kid said:


> @Hondo What, exactly, is the point of tying a horse if you are going to be around "monitoring" anyway? Tying a horse is necessary so you can do other things when you are out and about. I ride my horse when I am out hunting, but I certainly don't tie him to the deer stand. That would be ridiculous. You are waiting on an apology? Really? When you are the one who has insulted generations upon generations of horsemen/women with your "dark view" of them.


That absolutely. First of all that's a REALLY good point. Second of all that's exactly my frustration. I couldn't believe when I read that as at NO point have I, nor anyone else, made any personal comments about Hondo and well..Hondo, yet you say this completely out of the blue and not only that but after insulting me and pretty much all horse people (even the ones that hang around have surely never been right there EVERY SINGLE TIME over x amount of years, heck I definitely consider myself one to hang around in the first place!). Yet now I'm supposed to apologize? For what? I genuinely don't get it..

ETA-Apparently @Tazzie beat me too it. That itself should point out the "necessity" of the # _repeatedly _asked for.

If you have anything further that you feel the need to argue about or to say to me it would probably be best to PM me as opposed to making the thread about proving what's already been said and nitpicking, it's off topic enough already! I definitely am considering that topic closed....


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Yogiwick said:


> Not trying to start an argument, you know what you said...


I may have misread this as an accusation. But whatever the case, I am still extremely curious about what it is that I was to have said...

As it is, I haven't a clue to which you speak.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

ANYWAYS I think the tying the horse to the house 24/7 is interesting.

First, stuff like that has been done before.

Second, yes the horse should be expected to stand calmly.

Now that's not to say it's fine obviously (even ignoring the physical issues and mental of not being able to move which are not minor).

**Just because the horse is expected to stand calmly doesn't make it right**

Now the difference between 24/7/365 and 5 minutes.... you really don't see one? Are most (some are..) horses that unstable to where they will SUFFER from that when a) trained and/or b) in a comfort zone? As I mentioned in a few examples many horses PREFER to be alone sometimes. That's not to say that company isn't important but heck, I know I'm sure not a people person! That's not to say I would like to be isolated from every human being for an unknown possibly long term period of time.. I have 2 horses that could quite honestly NOT care if they were isolated, a third that is not at all buddy sour or dependent and could adapt if need be but enjoys his friends and the boarder who again could adapt but is not meant to be alone. (My other mare has not been in a herd situation since I've known her but she also does not have issues). Yet I would never ever isolate any of them. Heck only ONCE have I sold a sheep without a partner and the lady had a horse and he was a very strange sheep lol. I made it clear I would take him back if they weren't happy but they were, and then she bought another one anyways. Everyone else has gone 2+ or to a home that already had sheep or goats.

So no, I absolutely would not keep a horse or other herd animal isolated. However I give them the credit of having the mental capacity and training to handle standing alone somewhere they have previously _chosen _to stand alone for a brief period of time.

And as shown buddy sour isn't something to mess around with. I find that two horses together tend to be very co-dependent. I far prefer a herd situation. 1 is unfair, 2 creates issues and 3 is awkward.

CONFIDENCE is important and that is what one aims to teach. Confidence takes care of a LOT of issues on it's own. Clearly the OPs horses are not confident. I'm curious at what point she's got the horses. I'm also curious if "baby" has that name or if she's actually viewing the 6 year old as a baby? The horse definitely sounds like a baby as far as the whole confidence thing goes. I think part of why not too much has been said (completely on topic at least!) is it's really not a "how to get the horses in the barn" issues it's that the OP really needs to solve the buddy sour issue-which there are MANY good threads on, and honestly for these horses it sounds like there are deeper issues then just that. The OP needs to decide what she wants to do with her horses then start from the beginning to get to that point.


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## Alder (Feb 15, 2017)

what purpose does Baby have?
To Smilie, in answer to your question - B was never part of the plan, she was bought by a relative by mistake (a lot of mistakes have been made!)and I kind of inherited her. Yes, I'm in over my head, but I don't want to give up, she's a lovely affectionate horse. I'll do my best for her. And she is a companion for D.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Alder said:


> what purpose does Baby have?
> To Smilie, in answer to your question - B was never part of the plan, she was bought by a relative by mistake (a lot of mistakes have been made!)and I kind of inherited her. Yes, I'm in over my head, but I don't want to give up, she's a lovely affectionate horse. I'll do my best for her. And she is a companion for D.


I'm pleasantly surprised you came back lol!

What are your ideal goals? For both horses?


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## Alder (Feb 15, 2017)

In answer to DimSum's questions

'The OP said she feels B is scared so what does B do if left in the pasture? Is the fencing secure? Does she call or throw a fit? What does D do if left alone in the pasture? Is the OP able to work with them every day? Does the OP have someone to help if needed? What is the set up of the place-is it only a barn and pasture or is there a riding area with good fencing?'

I'm happy to answer your questions, love talking about my horses.
B gets very agitated when left in pasture, running around, calling, throwing fits.
The fencing is secure. I've never seen them challenge it.
D doesn't react when left alone, very calm. 
I can work with them almost every day (weather permitting), but I'm on my own, even when riding (no spotter).
Yes, it's a barn and pasture with a run in shed. There are trails to the back of the farm. I plan to create a round pen next to the pasture.

I've been tying them in the run-in shed for practice, they each have a stall, and they are fine with that.
B responds really well to routine, as though she relaxes when she knows what will happen. Anything new sets her off. I would take them in the barn every day, but the stall isn't always available, it's a working farm and the stall used for other livestock at times.


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## Alder (Feb 15, 2017)

Oh thanks Yogiwick!
My plans are to trail ride D, and saddle train B at this point, but I'm willing to try anything if I can get there. I'm new to horse ownership and find it really interesting and challenging, plus I love them.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo, you can stay with horse Hondo whenever he is tied-no problem, just don't insinuate because I do tie my horses and expect them to accept that, esp in their comfort zone, then my horses must mean not as much to me

The example of that crash course for those mustangs-what has that to do with this post, when I think I have repeated over and over again, that a horse must be 100% in giving to pressure, before you ever tie him solid, and also recommended that John Lyons book, where he tells how to make sure that 100% is there!


Trottin,you must know what a compound problem is, so adding situational conditions to that tying acceptance also creates more then one issue being evolked
For instance, the horse that does not mind leaving buddies, I assume is being led, thus has that person for security. When that horse is left behind by the other horses, I assume he has no one
Sure, horses can associate a place where they have had a negative experience, to place they do not wish to be, or to what happens there. If the horse is only brought into the barn for the farrier, for vet care, he is not going too be to keen going there, 
He will also feel more insecure, until he learns otherwise,, not able to see another horse when in the barn, as opposed to some outside pen, where he can at least see other horses.
I have see horses at shows, not used to being stalled, try to climb the wall when the horse next to him leaves. Does that mean then you forget about teaching that horse to accept stall time, and to thus realize he will get out again, buddy will come back, etc.Ditto for learning to stand tied, alone, in comfort zone
I never leave halters on ,when a horse is turned out, so preaching tot he choir, nor do I tie with a rope halter, but i do only tie with a break away halter, in the trailer

OP, thanks for explaining, and seeing how you inherited this problem , and kudos for trying your best. Can you find some experienced horse person to help you with this buddy sour issue? How is B, if you just bring her into the barn by herself, and start by just brushing her, giving her some food, while she is either tied or ground tied,with you there? Is D okay outside by herself? If so, just spend some time bringing B in, and just working with her, tying her for short periods at first, with you there


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

"I have see horses at shows, not used to being stalled, try to climb the wall when the horse next to him leaves. Does that mean then you forget about teaching that horse to accept stall time, and to thus realize he will get out again, buddy will come back, etc.Ditto for learning to stand tied, alone, in comfort zone"

^The horse is far happier and healthier for it overall when not catered to in the moment, both in that situation and others. It's a similar concept to reassuring a spooking horse vs calmly yet firmly taking charge. Though of course a good thing to work through before the show!

Get them solid and comfortable on the ground before worrying too much about riding. I would definitely be viewing the reactiveness and buddy sourness as the priority, they go together. Routine is good but they also need to not panic just because routine is changed up.

You could definitely take them out on the trails together, walking if you don't feel comfortable ponying a horse. It would be good for both of them. Not going to help the buddy sour issue going together but won't hurt and will help a lot of other things. Would also help in the sense that as you are teaching them to be ok separate the woods/trail isn't "that scary place" but "this nice place I go other than my pasture" to ease the worry.

Those are nice and simple goals to have. Just break it down into steps, and depending on the step you can use their attachment to help you show Baby how D (calmly and nicely) reacts to stressful stuff and such. (Just remember not to encourage being overly attached of course, be sure to work with Baby on her own plenty). Baby needs confidence both in herself and in you.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

tinyliny said:


> Cute: "poorbabyhoneydarlinsweerheartbeenabuseddontbeScaredBaby it's ok"
> 
> kind of reminds me of "supercalifragilisticexpialidocious". about as much pertinence to this discussion, too.


It is pertinent to this discussion. This person, by his/her own admission, is a beginner, hoping to teach these herdbound animals, and "saddle train" one of them. The person needs to have a LITTLE bit of understanding of the horses psychology to successfully carry out these tasks.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I thought they were both attached but rereading it's just Baby who is overly attached correct?


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

To Gotta & others who (respectfully)said they don't believe in leaving their horses when tied, yes, you've got to take - or don't - the risks you feel comfortable about. No argument if you feel that one's too high for you. But it's not at all about putting a horse at more risk, not caring etc, that most(?) don't feel that way. If my experience(be that through lack of training, understanding, whatever) led me to believe there was any great risk, I wouldn't be doing it either, because my horses are invaluable to me & much loved.

Tying your horse up 'hard' at all is a risk, among many we take. Life's a risk! It's a matter of doing the necessary preparation/training etc, and being alert to possibilities, to minimise those risks. And looking rationally at the likelihood of bad eventualities. You can't protect a horse from everything, even(especially??) if you wrap him in cotton wool. But prepared well enough & things done in a fully considered way, the likelihood of 'accidents', for something such as leaving tied is small. And there's no point sweating on the small stuff IMO. You gotta live! Not just in the experience of people here(many like me, seem not to have seen any bad wrecks because of this *with a well trained horse*, tho many, including me have seen tying accidents when people ARE around), but those bazillion 'horsemen thru the ages'. 

Back to OP... if they're still reading, after all the 'off rails'... Understand why your horse is 'buddy sour' and address the cause. She is either afraid of being alone(probable in this situation), or she's throwing a 'tanty' because she wants out too, or just doesn't want her friend away. 

That is why I take the gradual approach - dealing with an emotional, irrational mind, it is the *associations* with her 'bad behaviour' & fear we want to change, not just 'make her put up with it' until she is resigned. So you need to make it 'easy' enough that there are ample chances to replace those bad associations with good ones. Same as for teaching to tie or whatever.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

^There are 12 pages now?? I wrote the above when there were about 8 - not so long ago!


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

^Same!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

greentree said:


> It is pertinent to this discussion. This person, by his/her own admission, is a beginner, hoping to teach these herdbound animals, and "saddle train" one of them. The person needs to have a LITTLE bit of understanding of the horses psychology to successfully carry out these tasks.



then offer some useful help in how to see horse pysychology, instead of made up words and such. . .such as .. ., 

"poorbabyhoneydarlinsweerheartbeenabuseddontbeScar edBaby it's ok"

that are really an expression of your feelings about how others might see horses in a way that differs from you, rather than any real , thoughtful help. it s just a way to dis people, nothing more. offer some real advice. not just out and out scorn.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Alder said:


> In answer to DimSum's questions
> 
> 'The OP said she feels B is scared so what does B do if left in the pasture? Is the fencing secure? Does she call or throw a fit? What does D do if left alone in the pasture? Is the OP able to work with them every day? Does the OP have someone to help if needed? What is the set up of the place-is it only a barn and pasture or is there a riding area with good fencing?'
> 
> ...


In this case working the way Hondo did would be the best and easiest for you. 

You leave the quiet horse in the field and take the other out of the gate, lead it a few yards and let it have a reward of some feed. Gradually you increase the distance you walk to the feed and the time they are apart. 

At least I think that is what Hondo did.


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## DimSum (Mar 28, 2012)

Thank you for answering my questions Alder. I would do as others have suggested, take one out then the other for short periods. Make going into that barn a great thing-extra carrots or whatever fed from a bucket, grooming or my favorite a few flakes of good hay. I would also suggest you look around locally for an experienced horseperson to "mentor" you and help you to understanding the "whys" of horse ownership.


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## Tazzie (Nov 8, 2011)

Alder said:


> what purpose does Baby have?
> To Smilie, in answer to your question - B was never part of the plan, she was bought by a relative by mistake (a lot of mistakes have been made!)and I kind of inherited her. Yes, I'm in over my head, but I don't want to give up, she's a lovely affectionate horse. I'll do my best for her. And she is a companion for D.





Alder said:


> In answer to DimSum's questions
> 
> 'The OP said she feels B is scared so what does B do if left in the pasture? Is the fencing secure? Does she call or throw a fit? What does D do if left alone in the pasture? Is the OP able to work with them every day? Does the OP have someone to help if needed? What is the set up of the place-is it only a barn and pasture or is there a riding area with good fencing?'
> 
> ...


First off, it's a bit of a relief to see you state "yes, I'm in over my head." HUGE kudos for you since that's a big thing to admit.

Shame this baby was kind of dumped on you, and now you have to deal with it. I really hope you can get a handle on it!



DimSum said:


> Thank you for answering my questions Alder. I would do as others have suggested, take one out then the other for short periods. Make going into that barn a great thing-extra carrots or whatever fed from a bucket, grooming or my favorite a few flakes of good hay. I would also suggest you look around locally for an experienced horseperson to "mentor" you and help you to understanding the "whys" of horse ownership.


I agree with DimSum. I'd be taking the baby out first, and getting her relaxed being alone. How is she when you lead her out of sight of D? I'm guessing not good? Start small your way up. It sounds like something you're going to have to be persistent with, or it's never going to get better.

And maybe people will disagree with this, but maybe once she's good leaving with you and being alone, swap them. Start with D just outside of the field. When B settles down, "reward" her with D being put back in. Every time she settles down, she gets her buddy back. May take a while, but it'd be good for both of them to know being separated from one another.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

The idea of the forum is not to lash out at every individual that happens to have an opinion that you do not like or don't happen to agree with. Lash out at the opinion as being incorrect, but lashing out at the individual is not acceptable forum behavior.

Thank you very much.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

*MODERATORS NOTE*

We will not tolerate people bashing each other. For goodness sake please save us from having to keep having to edit mean and nasty comments. Agree to disagree. If something written seems odd, as for reasoning behind that reply instead of acting like bratty little children.

Thank you,

Linda


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Going back to the beginning to see how all these ideas about what my opinions are and are not got started.



Alder said:


> Should I:
> 
> 3 Lead B in first and tie her up to freak out when I go to get D.





Smilie said:


> I assume she understands how to give to pressure 100%. If so, tie her in a safe place, and leave her tied, until she is standing there quietly





Hondo said:


> Disagree about tying them up in a place YOU think is safe and just leaving them until they settle down. This can result in what is call "flooding" in behavior modification terms and can result in a permanent emotional shut down.


Since this early post, what I posted above has has at various points segwayed into things that I did not say or believe such as that a horse should not ever be tied under any circumstances under any conditions what so ever which is of course totally preposterous.

But I do maintain my opinion to simply tie up the offending horse and just leave it there until it settles down is the wrong thing to do. That remains my opinion and expressing it is what this forum is all about.

If someone has a differing opinion, them expressing it is also what this forum is about. And partly how we learn from each other. Differing opinions abound in the horse world, and respectfully expressing them leads to a better education eventually for all.

Now, for instance, sixgun expressed an interpretation that I was insulting him and generations before. I'm fine with that. He did not attack me personally in my view. And it may have an effect of me taking more care about how I say or state some things, even though I'm certain we still disagree about under what conditions a horse can rightly be tied solid and left unsupervised.

But just because we may disagree, that's no reason for personal attack by either of us. That's not how learning takes place and is not the purpose for which the owners of this forum maintain it.

So Smilie and I, along with many others, disagree on this particular point. If I were to get into a discussion with the very good cowboy friend I mentioned, we would also disagree, but we would still be friends.

Message to loosie. I feel I got a little strong with you but I never-the-less do continue to feel you were out of bounds of what a constructive forum post should be.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Thread closed for review


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

*This thread is now open. Please be well aware that bashing each other will give us just cause to close it again. *

So, no mention of who is and who isn't abusive. We are all entitled to our own opinion.


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