# Arabians with their head in the clouds



## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

There are a million threads on "head set" - all of which come down to: if the horse is correct, its head will be correct. That means the horse must be using its body correctly. 
Head down =/= correct. Problem is that most people think "headset!!!!!!!!" Not "correct body!!!" 
Want to crank your horse's head down? Be my guest. But anyone who knows better will see that false frame. 
Instead, learn how to ride the horse correctly back to front and from your seat and leg and your horse's head will become a barometer of success. 
Forget the head. Concentrate on the body. When the body is correct, the head will automatically be correct.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

Drop your hands, and tell them to.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Palomine said:


> Drop your hands, and tell them to.


Eeeeeeeeek!!! No!!! Do not drop your hands! Keep them up and drive from your seat and leg into your correct hand. 
Seat and leg! Horse's body! Forget your hands and this awful notion of "head down."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## As You Wish (May 22, 2013)

JustDressageIt - Thanks for your help. I never thought of it that way. I tend to be very light with my hands and try really hard to drive with my seat and leg. I haven't gotten the hang of getting the horse to engage her hindend and get it underneath her the way she should yet.


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## soenjer55 (Dec 4, 2011)

Any breed of horse will have a proper head set if they are carrying their body correctly- the head follows the hind. Like JDI said, don't worry about forcing her head down into a certain head set- work on teaching yourself to get her to go properly, driving from behind. Her head set and correct frame will follow.
Here is a link to a small article on "creating a frame," which might help you. 
The Perfect Horse: How to create a frame


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

What are your goals in riding? How is your horse's balance and movement overall?


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

A high head is not a bad thing, especially for an Arabian. Trying to keep the head down of an Arab is not going to happen. It's not a natural position for them and it messes with their gaits.

So my advise is to ride your Arabian for what he is, work on softness throughout the body, flexion of the neck, obedience, openess of the hips and shoudlers, and general correctness of the gait and he will be fine. Don't worry so much about his head, he's not going to ride like a quarter horse.


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

if they are running around with a high head you'll end up with a sore backed horse , and you have one that is paying more attention to the environment than to you. High head set is fine once the horse has the strength to do it without a hollow back. But most horses never really get to that point.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Do you have any pictures? A 'high headset' means different things to different folks. This is Mia (my Arabian mare) totally relaxed:










This is Mia in a normal riding position:










This is Mia when she is concerned about having another horse near her, but not so much as to stiffen her back..or at least not very stiff. Any higher would get her a stiff back:










I don't have any pictures of her on full alert with her back hollowed out...we're usually kind of busy at that point. Let's just say I sometimes am tempted to bite her ears at that point...:?

I think it is more useful to pay attention to how she is moving and balanced. How stiff is her back? Is she moving loose, or with tension? At a canter, she used to stretch way out and get very heavy on the front - to the point I was worried we might flip. I will insist on a higher head at a canter because it helps her to shift her weight back, and I'll accept any tightness in the back in exchange for a safer balance. And as her balance is getting better, she is starting to do it right without getting stiff in the back.

As a suggestion, pay attention to how YOUR balance drives her balance. Where your center of gravity is, how much weight you carry in your rump vs thighs, how freely you move with her - those all play in to how she balances. And your goals in riding will affect what balance you want from her. Dressage is very different from speed. Don't look at other horses heads, but focus on what your goals are, where your horse is at right now, and how your balance and motion can help move her in the direction - over months or even years - in the direction you want.

All just IMHO. Mia and I are obviously a work in progress. Or I hope we're making progress...


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

unlike a thoroughbred or qh, most Arabians tend to have a very high head naturally, and as soon as they are alert, excited, upset, etc, their head goes sky high. this is my mare, who I do endurance with (not in endurance shape in these pics)

her at rest;


what she can look like, if she stretches her neck down


and what she always looks like, at a gallop;


I honestly think trying to keep an arabs head in 'relaxed' position all the time is silly and unrealistic. If someone pulls on their mouth too hard? head goes up. Something scares them? excites them? they decide to argue with their rider? head up. Its one thing to ask them to be in a frame while showing or doing some concentrated schooling, and I certainly think you should teach a horse to use its body most efficiently with a rider by riding back to front, but you also have to give them some leeway when it comes to breed traits.


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## As You Wish (May 22, 2013)

bsms said:


> What are your goals in riding? How is your horse's balance and movement overall?


Right now, I am riding for pleasure. Her movement and balance are OK. She is a very forward horse with alot of energy. On trail rides I have to hold her back constantly or she will be miles ahead of the other horses, even at a walk. I love her energy but if I don't have the running martingale on her, her nose is always in the air. If I give her too much rein, off she goes. I accept her for who she is and love her as she is. I just want her head down so I am not getting so frustrated. I am constantly working her with my seat & legs, trying not to get on her mouth too much. 

Thanks for all your advise. I will just keep working her. My other Arabian is the same, so I will be working double-duty and have the strongest legs in CA.:wink:


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

That is a natural headset of an Arabian.
The gray in my avatar, also natural, but he is noticing something


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Extremely flashy and well trained Arabian Show Horse Gelding must see!

I can't copy the pics, sorry.
this horse has a very nice headset, except in pic 4 where he's behind the vertical.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zi9OG73CZi8&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Totally artificial. Sorry, my honest opinion.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

deserthorsewoman said:


> Extremely flashy and well trained Arabian Show Horse Gelding must see!
> 
> I can't copy the pics, sorry.
> this horse has a very nice headset, except in pic 4 where he's behind the vertical.


Cries in the corner, what a great price for a really nice looking boy, and I love how he looking there.


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## As You Wish (May 22, 2013)

Bluspark - She looks alot like my girl, Tie. Tie is 1/2 Arabian 1/2 Saddlebred and I don't know much about Saddlebreds. Here are a couple of pics of her in action at a poker playday from last year


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## As You Wish (May 22, 2013)

This is my other girl, Bella. 1/2 Arabian 1/2 Welsh.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

As You Wish said:


> ...On trail rides I have to hold her back constantly or she will be miles ahead of the other horses, even at a walk. I love her energy but if I don't have the running martingale on her, her nose is always in the air. If I give her too much rein, off she goes...


Just a suggestion, based on working with a sample size of ONE horse (Mia):

I'd work on her stop, and then use stops instead of trying to constantly keep her back. Mia will also leave the other horses behind. Rather than fight to slow her down, I get a better attitude if we just get ahead some & then stop & wait. Or I'll turn her back and tell her we need to go get the slowpokes.

I've converted Mia over to a curb bit. Again - if she wants to accelerate, we'll stop. Stop, dammit, I said! OK, that was from a few days ago! :? I used to try holding her in on a snaffle, but that just increased her tension. Now we're working on keeping slack in the reins and doing a full stop if needed, so she will learn to relax and carry her head in a relaxed position for her. Trying to reassure her thru the reins and keep her calm was just too darn much work for me! I'd get back exhausted.

I recently tried a bit with copper rollers. The jury is still out, but it did seem to reduce her fussing and yanking on the bit - something she is entirely capable of doing with a curb bit, although it is easier to deal with in a curb. And she can prance if she wants, but I'll decide the ultimate speed by either stopping her or turning her back and forth.

Since I'm searching for the right answer for Mia, I can't tell you one! All I can do is share what is going well or not going well, and sympathize. It is a challenge, but I honestly prefer all the work to a dead head horse strolling down the trail uninterested in anything going on.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Golden Horse said:


> Cries in the corner, what a great price for a really nice looking boy, and I love how he looking there.


That's the one I have my eyes in, hoping he's at least 14.3;-)


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

As You Wish said:


> Bluspark - She looks alot like my girl, Tie. Tie is 1/2 Arabian 1/2 Saddlebred and I don't know much about Saddlebreds. Here are a couple of pics of her in action at a poker playday from last year



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6u97mnQtNYU&feature=youtube_gdata_player

This is what she's bred for.

I would work her on the trail. NEVER go straight. Little circles, serpentines, shoukder- in, two tracking, leg yields, NEVER EVER straight. This will keep her busy, and all that bending will get her head down a little, if you do it correctly.
Now I'm off drooling over her....;-)


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## onuilmar (Feb 8, 2013)

Subbing. I have an Arabx.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Ridden Arabians in the UK show ring have to have the same headset as any other horse as far as working on the bit goes. It doesn't mean the horse isn't relaxed it just means its using itself correctly - in fact the whole outline should be soft and supple
Arabs got a really bad reputation for being 'star gazers' - that is they hollow their neck (which hollows the back) and look upwards instead of forwards pulling themselves along with their front legs instead of working from behind
They will always have a higher head carriage by virtue of breed but that should mean an arched neck not a hollow one
Because a horse is 'just a trail horse' doesn't mean it shouldn't work properly - a bit of schooling can give a much better ride whatever you do.


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

Make sure your saddle fits. Check the bit. If something is pinching or hurting you can be riding a horse trying to avoid the discomfort. A visit with a chiropractor might also be a good idea.
If I felt I had to use a martingale I would not have a horse ready for the trail. It sounds like you are riding a rocket and a serious bolt could be likely. I have a horse who was exactly like yours when I got her (Arab/Saddlebred). She came with crappy tack including a martingale. She never wore any of that junk again.
My advice is to make sure there is no pain and everything fits and go back to Riding 101. Walk until she relaxes enough to lower her head and you are not fighting each other. Yes, Arabs do have a higher head carriage as a rule but that head should come down and relax at the poll. Proceed from there. Others have given good advice.
This is not going to happen quickly so be patient. It is so worth the work to have a horse who is not going down the trail on the verge of being a runaway.


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## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

For my giraffe, I find that the height of his head directly relates to his level of boredom. High head = high boredom = I'm not giving him enough to do

Not always, but often enough. I cannot convince him that the deer are seriously not out to get him.

Now, the height of the tail is his naughty meter. If his tail is at his normal arch, he has his game face (tail?) on and he's with me. The higher the tail the hotter he is and the harder he is to ride.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

jaydee said:


> Ridden Arabians in the UK show ring have to have the same headset as any other horse as far as working on the bit goes...Because a horse is 'just a trail horse' doesn't mean it shouldn't work properly - a bit of schooling can give a much better ride whatever you do.


Define working properly.

Nose tucked in (vertical forehead) isn't good for a trail. A trail horse may not be on the bit at all - and happily so. And frankly, there isn't much evidence that 'collecting' improves a horse's longevity or useful riding life.

The QHs I see in southern Arizona have mostly been bred to carry their heads lower than an Arabian. That doesn't mean they are using their backs better, or better balanced - just different breeding.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

bsms said:


> Define working properly.
> 
> Nose tucked in (vertical forehead) isn't good for a trail. A trail horse may not be on the bit at all - and happily so. And frankly, there isn't much evidence that 'collecting' improves a horse's longevity or useful riding life.
> 
> The QHs I see in southern Arizona have mostly been bred to carry their heads lower than an Arabian. That doesn't mean they are using their backs better, or better balanced - just different breeding.


 Why is a vertical forehead - or one close to that not going to be good on the trails? A horse with its head like that is looking straight ahead at where its going - you don't have to be hanging onto its mouth to achieve that, it becomes a natural for them as they develop good muscle tone
A horse that's looking upwards and spooks is going to get the action of the bit against the corners of its mouth with no effect and be off rather than on the bars where you can immediately bring them back to you
A horse with a hollow back and hollow neck is far more likely to get spinal problems because its muscle wont support a rider so well


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

There is a balance between a horse properly in frame and a horse strung out, hollow backed. This happy medium is what you want in a trail horse, one that is naturally ballanced, using its body in the most efficient way with the minimum of human interference.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

jaydee said:


> Why is a vertical forehead - or one close to that not going to be good on the trails? A horse with its head like that is looking straight ahead at where its going...
> 
> *Not from what I've read. A horse has binocular vision over a limited area, and that area when looking ahead is affected by the angle of the head. Thus a horse on a trail, where the footing may be changing constantly - at least where I live - needs to move its head to focus well at different distances.*
> 
> ...


A collected gait doesn't improve longevity or usefulness. The US Cavalry studied it many years ago, and concluded that for travel outside an arena, a collected gait SHORTENS the horse's useful life and HARMS their health. 

Most horses are not show horses, and most riders are not 'serious' riders, in the sense of riding 4-6 hours a day or more. I ride about 3 hours/WEEK...maybe 5-6 hours/WEEK when the weather and my schedule permit. A rider who rides at that rate doesn't have the fitness to ride like a top rider, and a horse ridden at that rate won't have the fitness of a competitive horse.

It is fairly easy to train the horse & rider to ride with the horse's back relaxed and free. That is probably as good as a recreational rider, riding a few hours each week, can hope for. The good news is that a horse ridden a few hours each week has less total stress put on its body.

A man has to know his limitations, Clint said, and the same is true of riders and horses. And while a collected horse moving around the dressage ring can be fun to watch, it isn't needed or even possible for the average recreational horse & rider to move like that. We simply lack the fitness and training, and are not going to get it on a recreational riding schedule.

For a recreational rider, terms like collection and particularly headset should be stricken from the vocabulary. We ought to concentrate on what we CAN achieve - balance, looseness, relaxation. For trails and weekend games, that is all that is needed, and really all that can be expected. There is no practical reason to ride a horse with its head tucked in. Folks can do it, but there is a reason you don't see horses run loose like that...


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*bsms* - I think you're confusing a horse working lightly on the bit with a horse schooling in dressage working in paces such as a collected walk, trot or canter - there's a huge difference
If a horse had its head 'tucked in' it would be in rolkurr
Having a horse work in a relaxed rounded outline and on the bit in British and most European countries means that its neither above the bit nor behind the bit - theres a lot of room for maneuver between those two points.
I've always worked my horses like this and at one time never rode anything less than 16.2's that were competition/hunting fit and I'm quite happy with my way of doing things - my lot are all easy to handle in light bits or bitless, if they occasionally spook they never go more than a few feet forwards and I've got them back
If you're satisfied with Mia then I don't see any reason to argue - you do what suits you best.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

The running martingale should only be temporary, to gently show horse that it CAN relax its head & accept the bit, because rider won't hurt her mouth. As an ongoing leverage device, it's bad for the horse & rider partnership, only causing more pain to horse.

You want to "hold hands" as friends, with hand & mouth.


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## As You Wish (May 22, 2013)

deserthorsewoman said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6u97mnQtNYU&feature=youtube_gdata_player
> 
> This is what she's bred for.
> 
> ...


Drooling over Tie??? If so, thank you. I get so many compliments. She is beautiful with her big doe eyes.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

I really like NSH's


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Here is some interesting reading for you

The Horse's Balance


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

^^^ One of the best websites out there as it makes everything really easy to understand


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Golden Horse said:


> Here is some interesting reading for you
> 
> The Horse's Balance


_"One of the key elements of dressage is improving the horse’s balance. By teaching the horse to carry more of the cumbersome weight of the forehand with its haunches the forehand lightens and makes the horse more agile and balanced."_​The only problem is that there is no evidence I've ever seen that this is true. The US Calvary looked at it, and concluded it was false. Dressage improves the horse's balance IN COLLECTED GAITS. That is the goal of dressage - to move with collection. But the natural balance of a horse IS on the front, and any rider on its back will already move the center of gravity aft, since all riders are at least slightly behind the horse's center of gravity.

Modest collection makes the horse more comfortable to ride, but it also slows the horse down. Any energy the hind legs use to support weight is energy not available for the primary job of the hind legs: thrust. If you want to cover ground, then you do not want a collected horse, or collected gaits.

That is why the dressage style of riding is not "proper" riding, and western riding a degraded form of equitation. Having the horse's head held in a vertical position is not natural to the horse, nor needed for good riding. Given that the horse moves its head to adjust its vision, and also does so to adjust its balance, a free moving head is the 'natural' way to ride a horse. And far too many ranch horses have been ridden into their 30s for me to believe that a dressage frame improves longevity. If anything, the evidence I've seen indicates it decreases longevity for the average horse.

I have no objection to folks riding that way. If it makes them and their horse happy, then I have no complaint. I do object to being told it is the "proper" way to ride, or that it makes the horse more agile or live longer.

Based on my experimenting with my own horses, a case can be made that the forward seat is the easiest one on a horse. It frees up the horse's back and puts the rider's center of gravity as close as possible to the horse's natural balance. But a forward seat also doesn't require the horse to carry its head vertically. That is an artificial headset that offers very little outside of collected gaits...








​


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

From Commonsense Horsemanship by V.S. Littauer (



)


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

bsms, I agree with most everything you say.

I believe dressage is dabbling in the area of "art"; much as dance, or gymnastics is "unnatural" but, us being human, we have some unnatural appreciation for man-made structure, or harmony, or whatever.

For the OP my suggestion is to try to set the running martingale looser and looser, or maybe better, change to a standing martingale that attaches to the noseband, polo-style. You will probably be safer on your trail rides if you don't get rid of it, but try not to rely on it. My horse was nearly ruined by her early training in it. It took a FULL YEAR to get her to willingly take the contact of the reins; and she's only part Arab. You WANT your horse to take the rein.

As for headset, I think you're correct in trying to teach her to lower her head, or yield, when your ask. For one thing, it's a sign of submission. The one-rein-stop is forever useful. It will also stretch/rest her back. It's perhaps not for all-the-time, but when you ask, she should respond. I started my horse on the ground, teaching her to yield her head lower and lower while I applied the bit. Amazing how she just didn't get it at first. Any action of the bit made her bring her head UP.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

Beling said:


> bsms, I agree with most everything you say.
> 
> I believe dressage is dabbling in the area of "art"; much as dance, or gymnastics is "unnatural" but, us being human, we have some unnatural appreciation for man-made structure, or harmony, or whatever.
> 
> ...


*No.* Take the martingale off. Arabains are very hesitant to things that make them claustrophobic and martingales are one of those. You don't want them to outsmart the martingale and duck behind it. That will make your problem worse.

Teacher her to flex to both sides and soften certainly but focus on the whole body, not just the front end.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

There is a difference between the extreme collection of upper level dressage, and the 'normal' collection that I expect of my riding horses.

Ben for instance hasn't got a clue yet, being a big green bean, but right from the start I am working at getting a feeling of the engine pushing from behind, and gently collecting t hat energy in front. To me that is collection, it is not about frame, but about energy.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Well, all the collection debate aside....

OP, the reason why your horse is going around like a giraffe is because he's learned to do that. My guess, just from looking at him is that either his tack doesn't fit and is hurting his back, he needs his teeth floated, or he needs training (_*not*_ on headset as that won't correct the hollow and strung out frame of his body).

Both of the horses you posted pictures of are traveling hollow and "evading" contact.

My first steps would be to have their teeth floated, have a chiro check their backs out, and have a professional saddle fitter double check that there isn't any tack pain going on.

After that, I'd suggest the help of a good trainer to assist you. It's a relatively easy fix hands on, but not something that can be easily explained over the internet.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

smrobs said:


> Well, all the collection debate aside....
> 
> OP, the reason why your horse is going around like a giraffe is because he's learned to do that. My guess, just from looking at him is that either his tack doesn't fit and is hurting his back, he needs his teeth floated, or he needs training (_*not*_ on headset as that won't correct the hollow and strung out frame of his body).
> 
> ...


 
Not necessarily. The reason she's high headed is because she's an Arabian.

Pics would certainly help.


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## soenjer55 (Dec 4, 2011)

palogal said:


> Not necessarily. *The reason she's high headed is because she's an Arabian.*
> 
> Pics would certainly help.


This is only part of the reason. In the pictures, both of them are clearly hollow through the back, which is also why they're high headed.
Being an arabian does not mean they have to have their heads in the clouds. Any horse is capable of rounding themselves out and working properly- the resulting head set may not be the same for a quarter horse and a saddlebred, but it still shouldn't look like they're going to bump their ears on God's toes.


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## As You Wish (May 22, 2013)

deserthorsewoman said:


> I really like NSH's


She is more impressive and beautiful in person. Sorry, I try to be modest when it comes to Tie, but I can only state the obvious. She is really a beautiful horse.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

smrobs said:


> Well, all the collection debate aside....
> 
> OP, the reason why your horse is going around like a giraffe is because he's learned to do that. My guess, just from looking at him is that either his tack doesn't fit and is hurting his back, he needs his teeth floated, or he needs training (_*not*_ on headset as that won't correct the hollow and strung out frame of his body).
> 
> ...


agree. I would even go as far as saying no speed events until both have a solid base, know how to work from behind and roundd their backs. 
Both have Arabian blood, Tie is also ASB, high set on necks come with these breeds. So they need careful conditioning before they can do these things without completely falling apart. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5895K-Xjupk&feature=youtube_gdata_player
This is a horse if a breed with a high set neck, but HAS been conditioned before doing the speedy stuff.....


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

I missed the pics.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

It is a bit unfair to compare a highly trained horse to a recreational one. Unless the OP has a lot of time to ride, she won't get those results. Nor is that horse hauling butt.

That is why it is important to know what the OP wants to achieve. Which apparently is a horse that is comfortable on a trail ride (post 12: "Right now, I am riding for pleasure. Her movement and balance are OK. She is a very forward horse with alot of energy. On trail rides I have to hold her back constantly or she will be miles ahead of the other horses, even at a walk.")

The training in the video in post 45 is completely out of whack with what most recreational riders can do or desire to do. That is why realistic goals are important. That is why goals like "relaxed", "free", "balanced" - not in the dressage sense, but in the movement sense - are appropriate.

I would get rid of the tie-down. Work the horse in an arena. If the horse gets too fast, circle, drop a gait, or stop. Then try again. If cantering gets the horse too excited, either do more trotting or canter enough to take some of the fun out. If the horse insists on hollowing out at a canter, don't canter. Trot and work circles until the horse stops hollowing as much. Use two-point to encourage the horse to use its back. And yes, check saddle fit too. If the horse is "evading the saddle", then it might be the saddle or your riding. I've experienced both of those at times with my horses.

A forward seat can encourage the horse to use the back. You can find some advice here:

http://www.horseforum.com/english-riding/riding-canter-half-seat-120340/

George Morris is hard to beat for books on forward riding. If the OP is even 1/4 as challenged in riding as I am, it can be an easier way to get the horse moving freely than dressage. Work the trot first, use turns as much as possible to control speed and practice your stops as well. And watch the horse's nose - if it is tipping out in the turns, the inside shoulder is falling in. Make sure the turns are done with the nose slightly inside the circle. If the turns and stops are sloppy, then the horse is probably cheating and not using its back enough.

Trooper now moves fairly well after riding like that. Mia is still a work in progress. She has improved a lot...mostly when by herself. With another horse (Trooper), she'll start thinking race. To her, "race" means hollow your back in preparation, then explode and go as fast as you can. I would be happy somewhere in between...

There is nothing wrong with dressage or that approach either, if it is what you want. When I tried riding like that, MY stiff back made MIA's back stiff. Better riders would get better results.

Good luck. I'm still working these sorts of issues with Mia.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Just a note here: Rounding a horse up can have a slowing affect on their pace, rounding up shortens their wheel base so to speak....anyone ever seen a racehorse rounded up like a WP horse and win a race? I don't mean collection in the sense of dressage, I mean rounding the back and creating a bridge. JMO.

ETA: rounding up has nothing to do with the bit or the position on the head, it will fall naturally into place once the horse has learnt to bridge over the back.


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## TigerLilly16 (Jun 9, 2013)

Have you ever considered a neck relaxer AKA neck stretcher?
It creates a new muscle to keep their head down in a very humane and gentle way, used it on my old arab!


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

I did NOT say that the OP should strive for anything close to what is shown in the video. I was trying to show that a well rounded, well ridden horse can be lightning fast and precise also. 
Besides, from what I understood from her first post, is that she was asking for help with the high- headedness of her horse Tie. She was not, but correct me if im wrong, asking for help finding excuses for a hauling- butt, uncontrollable, hot- headed Arabian, which can be controlled only with a bigger bit.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Standing martingales should be avoided because the horse will either panic at the level of restraint or use it as something to lean on
Running martingales should never be used tight enough to be a training aid - they have a real purpose as a safety net in jumping/eventing/hunting and on a horse that head flips enough to smack you in the face but otherwise just a band aid
I wish people would stop confusing the European style of riding where we expect horses to work 'on the bit' with the sort of thing & level of collection you see in high level dressage. Small children learn to ride little ponies like it in the UK so how hard can it be?
How is the way a horse gallops in the wild comparable to the way we want our horses to behave as safe riding animals that you want to easily stop and turn?
A forward seat is useless in a horse that pulls or is hard to stop as you're giving it the advantage - also far more of a strain on an inexperienced rider
We are talking just simple basic education here that will make a horse a pleasure to ride and easier/safer to handle
In the UK we ride on narrow busy roads so a horse needs to be easily and quickly restrained if it spooks - no room to leap sideways or run forwards so if its on the bit its far easier to control
We also use bridle paths that have many gates along route - so a horse that's trained to turn on the forehand, rein back and sidepass (movements some want to connect to the dressage some dislike so much) are utilized to avoid constant dismounting and remounting. I've seen exactly the same movements in western trail riding competitions
You don't have to have a 'sitting pretty' seat to do these things but if your horse can work on the bit in a rounded relaxed outline its a lot easier to achieve


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## Kamakazi (Jun 10, 2013)

A horse with a natural high headset (such as an arab) will panic if you try to use training tack to "correct the problem." (not saying that arabs headsets are the problem, i grew up riding arabs). 
I think it's more of a discomfort for the rider than the horse. My advice is to just adapt yourself. You can't ask a horse to do something it's not bred for. The arab is never going to be a peanut roller and you shouldn't expect it to be.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

jaydee said:


> ...I wish people would stop confusing the European style of riding where we expect horses to work 'on the bit' with the sort of thing & level of collection you see in high level dressage. Small children learn to ride little ponies like it in the UK so how hard can it be?
> 
> *No one has. But your post 23 said: "Ridden Arabians in the UK show ring have to have the same headset as any other horse as far as working on the bit goes. It doesn't mean the horse isn't relaxed it just means its using itself correctly...Because a horse is 'just a trail horse' doesn't mean it shouldn't work properly - a bit of schooling can give a much better ride whatever you do."
> 
> ...


"On the bit" can mean a lot of things. It is often used to refer to a horse being direct reined in a snaffle with light pressure on the reins. That is how I used it above, and that can be done to give a horse a headset, but I don't think that is the only way to crack the nut.

I read once (on the dressage sub-forum) that 'on the bit' would be better translated 'on the aids'. That suggests to me a horse that is paying attention to her rider and responding to the cues through good, consistent training and habit. I was thinking about it on today's ride. Riding Mia in her curb bit, with slack in the reins, she was arguably 'on the bit'. A small movement of my hand, changing the amount of slack in the reins, amplified thru a leverage bit, communicated lots of things to her. No snarling dogs today, thank goodness. No dust devil either. But going down some new paths she hadn't seen before, and along a highway with cars doing 55-60 mph, flicks of my wrist, changes in the amount of slack, neck reining - all those were cues - and she was paying attention to them.

At the same time, she was free to move her head. She sometimes dislikes that freedom. But that is a training issue - teaching her to listen to the feel of the reins on her neck, the changes in slack, and to pay enough attention to that so she can communicate with me constantly without my worrying about her head position. She is making the transition from a poorly trained English style horse to an OK trained western horse.

For the OP & the overall thread: This is why I argue to pay attention to the back instead of the head. The head is a symptom only loosely connected to the back. A horse can have a loose, relaxed back with a head position that varies with breeding. If your horse has a relaxed back when you are doing relaxed riding, and uses its back when you need power, and shifts its weight as needed to change direction quickly...then the head position is optional.

In that sense, I think Jaydee & I are in agreement, and that I am in agreement with the dressage riders: Train the body for the movement you need. Train the mind to pay attention to you and your will. What happens to the head then can be adjusted for your style of riding - if you need to.


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## Khainon (Feb 24, 2013)

my arabian always has a high head..its just how carries himself..even when relaxed..im not concerned about it..i just had to adapt and adjust my riding to fit him..im not going to force him to lower his head to make me feel better..i just want him to be comfortable and happy..and so far..he is happy with his head up..and that is fine with me


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

bsms said:


> "On the bit" can mean a lot of things. It is often used to refer to a horse being direct reined in a snaffle with light pressure on the reins. That is how I used it above, and that can be done to give a horse a headset, but I don't think that is the only way to crack the nut.
> 
> I read once (on the dressage sub-forum) that 'on the bit' would be better translated 'on the aids'. That suggests to me a horse that is paying attention to her rider and responding to the cues through good, consistent training and habit. I was thinking about it on today's ride. Riding Mia in her curb bit, with slack in the reins, she was arguably 'on the bit'. A small movement of my hand, changing the amount of slack in the reins, amplified thru a leverage bit, communicated lots of things to her. No snarling dogs today, thank goodness. No dust devil either. But going down some new paths she hadn't seen before, and along a highway with cars doing 55-60 mph, flicks of my wrist, changes in the amount of slack, neck reining - all those were cues - and she was paying attention to them.
> 
> ...


Now let me get that straight ....first it was the " old cowboy" seat, the cavalry used it too, leaning against the cantle, bracing against the stirrups. The one and only seat, you tried to convince us with many many pictures and even more words.
And now it's the forward seat all of the sudden?
And your horse responds better with the bigger bit...why, if course!!! It hurts!! But sh will soon learn to evade that one too, no worry. 
A horse without a rider carries 60% of its weight on the forehand. Which is no problem, as long as it remains without rider. 
The goal of engaging the much stronger hindend through proper training and riding gets that extra weight off the weaker forehand. With it comes a certain degree of collection, the kind a horse in liberty sometimes demonstrates all on it's own. 
Now why shouldn't we, as riders, strive to do just that? To say that some breeds with low set necks never collect is just plain wrong. It's just less obvious for the untrained eye. 
For high necked horses the back-to-front riding is even more important, due to their built the hollow back appears much faster.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

While it isn't necessarily normal for a western horse to be "on the bit" in the traditional English sense of the term, that doesn't make it okay for the horse to travel around with their back hollowed and their body strung out, which guarantees that they are falling really heavy on that forehand. The natural set of the horse's head has absolutely nothing to do with how they use their body.

For example, this is the picture that the OP posted of her horses, both of whom are at a lope


















Now, look closely at those horses and then look at this horse. He's naturally high headed due to his conformation and temperament...but that doesn't prevent him from rounding up and loping in a balanced and controlled manner...on a loose rein no less.


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## dnabbody (May 14, 2012)

My Arab gelding used to be a little high headed (not in the spooky-crazy sense) in the sense that he wasn't paying attention to my cues, sometimes grabbing the bit and *running* on the trail. He didn't stop well.The worst thing was that when I got to where I'm now boarding a year and a half ago, his rear toes started wearing down.The arena we ride in has a bit of an abrasive footing, on top of the fact that I seem to have a LAZY horse! Well, to my surprise, someone at the barn also enlightened me by blurting out, "Well, he's not being ridden properly!" / ie: not using his rear.
(My horse is totally healthy, and no problems with tack fit, he's just a tad lazy.)

So I began taking lessons, and now he's a different horse! In a year's time, he stops, slows, and moves out from mostly my seat and my legs. All without his head way up. At first we used a 10 ring martingale for a few months, but I felt like it was cheating and it got in my way. Without it since, he has come along just fine. I maintain light contact on his face, keeping my hands in one area for the most part. It's hard for me to tell by looking, but by feel, I know when his back is rounding out. I also flex and bend him for about 15 min. before a ride. We are a completely different team now! He uses his rear much better, his trot is "floaty" now, and he bends nicely at the poll. He's not behind the vertical, but he does arch his neck and his head is lower than before. Out on the trail, I can lean forward, give him his face, and let him open up into a flat out run. Then I can lean back slightly in the saddle and bump him down into a slow collected lope. He'll still try and drag his feet in the arena sometimes, so I have to really stay on top of it ; )
A great benefit of learning to ride well, is that he is a much more willing participant in our activities, and listens to me : )
So maybe what I'm trying to say is maybe take lessons from someone who can show you the right way. Be very diligent, it just takes time. Teaching my boy to bend and flex took time, but has made a lot of difference too. Also as soon as the head tries to pop up, you have to be quick to bump them forward with the seat/leg as a reminder to pay attention to the task at hand. Catch it before it happens if you can. I also agree with keeping a more loose rein when she gets excited,it's less tension to wind them up.


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## existentialpony (Dec 4, 2012)

I haven't read through the whole thread, but I pretty much know the way these threads go!

The only thing I'd like to add is that relaxation is key. Step 1: get your horse working on a loose rein, moving forward from behind and starting to seek contact. For my arab, this translated into "long and low" in a nice stretchy frame (with minimal contact on his mouth... this includes gait changes, halts, etc). Step 2: introduce contact. Slowly pick up your reins while asking the horse to move forward into your hands. If your horse tosses his/her head, gently sponge-squeeze your inside rein to ask for the littlest nose bend inwards. Release your squeeze at the slightest "give." Most of the time getting the horse on your circle and moving them forward will result in a "head set" for the simple fact that the horse is listening, relaxing and moving more correctly.

Good luck! Just remember, never yank in response to a head toss or giraffarab-- sponge squeeze your inside to get them moving on your circle, leg seat leg seat to get them moving forwards!


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## Boo Walker (Jul 25, 2012)

Here is a good video series, this particular one is showing the progress of an Arab to develop up over his back and learn a balanced head set


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

deserthorsewoman said:


> Now let me get that straight ....first it was the " old cowboy" seat, the cavalry used it too, leaning against the cantle, bracing against the stirrups. The one and only seat, you tried to convince us with many many pictures and even more words.
> And now it's the forward seat all of the sudden?
> 
> *Oddly enough, it depends on what I'm trying to achieve. Yes, I have various types of saddles, and ride with somewhat varying styles. And it you had paid attention to the "old cowboy" seat comments I made, I specifically said to NOT brace against the stirrups, and that an advantage was that it allowed for easy conversion into a forward seat.
> ...


The English system of riding using a centered balance is not wrong. However, it is NOT the pinnacle of riding, with everyone else engaged in a degraded, harmful, unnatural sort of riding. If anything, the English system of centered riding is uncommonly unnatural, and is based on theories that have never been demonstrated to be factual.

I do not object to YOU riding that way, but it is incredibly arrogant to assume western riders using curb bits are incompetent riders harming their horses. Mia's progress since switching over to curb bits & neck reining has been remarkable. I do not insist anyone practice it. Trooper and Cowboy are both riding using snaffles.

But some of these claims are incredible! A forward seat leaves you out of control? Makes it hard to understand how people do jumping using it, or adopt it for barrel racing. Or how Australians use it for campdrafting. As a relatively new rider, I feel entirely comfortable using it when things are going wrong. If I've never come off a horse using it, then it obviously is NOT a bad way for a new rider to ride.

Curb bits are evil? Just using a bigger bit to cause pain? What foolishness is that! Why is Mia relaxed in a curb bit? Why is it she held steady when the dogs rushed out snarling, or the dust devil hit? Why does she go down the trail with her head level - which would be relevant for the OP's concerns, wouldn't it?

Does she LOOK like she is in pain at the end of our ride?


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

You argue with hundreds of years of riding horses from back to front. With engaging strong hindquarters to be light and agile in front. 
Now who sounds arrogant.......


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

NO ONE is arguing to ride a horse with a hollowed out back. However, that is not the same as saying a horse needs to be 'on the bit', with the power from his rear going to the bit and back into your hands, as some folks put it. 

If your tack doesn't fit, or you ride heavy on the back, then the horse may well hollow its back most of the time. Get tack that fits, and learn to ride lighter.

That can mean using a forward seat, which is very light on the horse's back. You can do it "old cowboy style", provided you don't brace in the stirrups and move your hips (where your body naturally opens and closes the angle) to move with your horse. You can do it like a dressage rider, but you may need a more flexible back or more core strength to pull it off. There may be other ways as well.

As Littauer (a huge proponent of the forward seat) wrote in my signature:

"...there are only two criteria of your position; a) are you in fluid balance and rhythm with your horse or not? b) does your seat enable you to control your horse efficiently?"

The level of collection needed to prevent soring is pretty minor. Based on Trooper and Mia, I would suggest working on circles (round circles, don't let them cheat), tight turns at various speeds (I used pylons), shifting your own weight toward the rear (horses will often follow), transitions in speed and stops from various gaits. There may be more, but those have helped my horses. It may even sound a lot like what a dressage person might recommend...because at the lower levels, it is just a horse moving. It isn't dressage, cutting, trail riding - just teaching a horse some ways to balance and be relaxed with a rider.

It is entirely reasonable to pursue the English style of riding. It has worked for millions of horses. It is also reasonable to ride forward, or to pursue a western style of riding - both of which have also worked with millions of horses.

For the OP & her question: Mia has proven herself capable of going to BOTH extremes. She can hollow her back, but she has also cantered with her nose just above the ground. Neither is safe or balanced or good. Switching to a western style of using reins had been great for Mia. It is not a requirement, but it has worked very well for her. The curb bit works off of poll pressure, which she seems to respond well to. Trooper and Cowboy don't seem to care, so they are in snaffles. I've been trying using curb pressure with Trooper, but I see no sign he cares. But it does make a big difference with Mia.

A forward seat frees up the horse's back better than any other style I've seen - my two favorite books on it are George Morris's Hunter Seat Equitation ($7.25 used) and VS Littauer's Commonsense Horsemanship ($2.76 used) - both on Amazon.

For trail riding, a standard forward seat it too much work, IMHO. But it is easy to switch to, when needed. It is very good to have in one's bag of tricks. When the horse hits the fan, a forward seat is what I want. YMMV.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Well, considering that the OP asked what to do about her problem with her horse, I suggested never going straight, doing circles etc, just like you said now. We all agreed that her horse needed a certain basic training to help her work from behind, round up her back and relax towards the rider's hand. 
As for the forward seat....we, as in we English riders( or ex, as in my case) ride the trails in a forward seat, once it goes faster than a walk. But when needed, we do sit, just like the showjumper between and especially when arriving at a jump.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Since we have smrobs who is a really experienced western rider who works her horses with the same principle for avoiding the hollow back/hollow neck problem by training her horses to round up and accept the bit in much the same way as European horses then I cant see that there is any real difference in technique
Her photos showed really clearly what we're trying to explain - the higher head and arched neck carriage of the Arabians (and some other breeds) is not the problem if the horse can still relax and come into contact with the bit IN THE CORRECT PLACE - which is on the bars of the mouth. The *wrong* type of high head carriage is when the horse gets above the bit - points its nose skywards, hollows its neck and its back and 'scoots' from underneath you. The action of the bit moves from the bars to the corners of the mouth. allows the horse to get the bit between its teeth and has no effect
These shanked bits and gags have a purpose in competitions when used for finesse or for extra brakes in things like eventing and showjumping by experienced riders but shouldn't be seen as a substitute for correct training
A horse might be quite fine in them when just 'tootling along' but when used with force they will cause pain because its that pain that's making them 'listen'
I know we've shown this Brannaman video before and the horse isn't an Arabian but this is a western horse ridden in 'collection' on the lightest of reins because its been correctly trained - please don't anyone tell me that this horse doesn't look like it would be a pure joy to ride
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSLpyfzihts&feature=c4-overview&playnext=1&list=TLLxLi53P9aD8
On another note - one of the biggest causes of sacroiliac and uneven/tilted pelvic problems are horses falling over in the field when galloping around


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

jaydee said:


> Why is a vertical forehead - or one close to that not going to be good on the trails? A horse with its head like that is looking straight ahead at where its going - you don't have to be hanging onto its mouth to achieve that, it becomes a natural for them as they develop good muscle tone
> A horse that's looking upwards and spooks is going to get the action of the bit against the corners of its mouth with no effect and be off rather than on the bars where you can immediately bring them back to you
> A horse with a hollow back and hollow neck is far more likely to get spinal problems because its muscle wont support a rider so well


 
Quite agree. All the horses I hack out with (trail) have been schooled so that they can move correctly, it means that back muscles are properly developed and the horse is light and responsive to the rider (listening to the rider with a constant contact and carrying their heads as vertical as possible), that doesn't mean they do so on the whole hack, there are always times when you let them stretch and relax as well  and of course, gallop!

As for different breeds - I have owned arabs and I would expect the same head position as my TB and my haflinger and my friend's Shire x and another friend's Conny as well as my 11.2 Shetland x.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Jaydee, please don't bash another discipline you haven't tried and obviously do not understand. I said, in my early posts on this thread, that the higher head position of an Arabian is fine IF the back is being used right - that most riders should focus on the back, not the head. Post 10 on this thread:_"I think it is more useful to pay attention to how she is moving and balanced. How stiff is her back? Is she moving loose, or with tension?...As a suggestion, pay attention to how YOUR balance drives her balance. Where your center of gravity is, how much weight you carry in your rump vs thighs, how freely you move with her - those all play in to how she balances. And your goals in riding will affect what balance you want from her. Dressage is very different from speed. Don't look at other horses heads, but focus on what your goals are, where your horse is at right now, and how your balance and motion can help move her in the direction - over months or even years - in the direction you want."
_​That is hardly a justification of a hollowed out back.

But English centered riding (dressage oriented) is NOT the only good way to ride or train a horse. It isn't "proper". If you look at the picture of smrob's Dad riding, is he using the reins to hold the head in a vertical position? Take another look:










Now look at poor Mia, suffering in her cruel curb bit - "A horse might be quite fine in them when just 'tootling along' but when used with force they will cause pain because its that pain that's making them 'listen'":










Mia is starting to focus on Trooper in the picture (see her ears), but she is still cruising along. Notice the angle of the neck, and the angle of the head. There is nothing magical about holding the horse's head vertical. There is nothing 'good' about a snaffle and 'evil' about a western curb. It is not a bit normally used with two hands (normally, although a Billy Allen can still be used for direct reining if desired). The cues are not mouth centered, but combine the reins, how much slack is in the reins (or none), amplified somewhat (maybe 2:1 or less in many bits) so the horse can feel with its mouth without ever having the pressure found in a snaffle applied. The norm is for the horse to hold the bit and feel the reins, not for the rider to seek constant "contact" by applying direct pressure to the bit.

If you haven't tried riding with a western curb bit, or taught a horse to travel in one, then maybe you aren't qualified by your many years of English experience to evaluate it for riding. I wouldn't try to tell someone how to get their horse 'on the bit' with a snaffle. The two geldings we ride in snaffles are experienced horses. They get the job done without caring what kind of bit is in their mouth. I've tried a variety now with Trooper, and haven't seen any difference. But both the geldings are also ridden with slack reins, only cued if there is a reason. They aren't ridden on the bit, but they carry themselves in a balanced manner regardless._"The *wrong* type of high head carriage is when the horse gets above the bit - points its nose skywards, hollows its neck and its back and 'scoots' from underneath you. The action of the bit moves from the bars to the corners of the mouth. allows the horse to get the bit between its teeth and has no effect"
_​Mia has never done that. She did it once, fighting to keep running, but she doesn't raise her head to move the bars to the corner. She does this:










When she is excited, and doesn't want to stop, she stretches out her body, running fast. And yes, that puts a snaffle in the corner of the mouth. Once there, she can ignore it.

If you use a leveraged bit, however, she cannot escape pressure on the poll. And she has 'understood' pressure on the poll from the first time I tried her with a leveraged bit. NOT because I was hauling on her mouth and causing her pain. She rarely gets enough pull to engage the curb strap. If she does, it is for a fraction of a second - a snap of the wrist, then release. But if it was causing her pain, Mia would fight me. If she takes offense at anything her rider does, she will fight. And we've had some fights - using snaffles and rope halters.

A horse running fast will stretch out. That is 'proper' for speed. And it is then, when she is most excited, that a snaffle ceases to do anything. What is the use of that? When you need the most help, the snaffle becomes the least useful!

If you want to ride your horse with its head held vertical, that is fine. But it is not a requirement for a balanced, responsive horse. Outside an arena, where there is more to see and watch, locking the horse's vision into one spot on the ground seems pretty odd. Denying the horse the use of its head and neck for balance seems pretty odd too. But I haven't tried it, so if it works for you, feel free. But do not tell me a western curb bit is cruel, that it means the horse is frightened into obedience, that it causes the horse pain and that is how it works. And don't say that a vertical head is needed for the horse to use its back, when millions of horses use their back without being ridden 'on the bit'.

The OP doesn't need to get her horse 'on the bit', or a vertical headset, in order to get the horse to relax, use its back, and enjoy moving. That is *A* way to approach it, but not the only way.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Don't assume just because jaydee or I are European, we no nothing about western. Assuming could make an a$$ out of you, as Parelli stated....
A horse is started in a snaffle, and worked up to a shanked bit, then goes into a curb. But it doesn't go into any kind of leverage bit, until it is soft in the face. Softness is not achieved by pulling on the mouth or using a bigger bit. This softness comes with teaching the horse to use his hind to step under himself to be able to break in the poll and give to the bit. This process is the same, English, western, Spanish, classical. If the horse is later ridden with steady contact, which is NOT equal to constant pressure, btw, or with signals, is absolutely irrelevant. 
A horse soft in the face is also a controllable horse. Controllable in any situation.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

bsms said:


> *Jaydee, please don't bash another discipline you haven't tried and obviously do not understand.* I said, in my early posts on this thread, that the higher head position of an Arabian is fine IF the back is being used right - that most riders should focus on the back, not the head. Post 10 on this thread:
> 
> Please can you show me where I'm 'bashing' on a discipline I know nothing about?
> If you think that having a horse work 'on the bit' in a rounded outline has anything to do with hanging onto its mouth then you have no understanding at all of how you educate a horse to work correctly. It should be done with the lightest of pressure on the mouth and if done correctly a horse can be ridden on the loosest and longest of reins and still be in a good outline as shown by *smrobs* photo and all the many others that ride western in the same way
> ...


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

The reins are not used to "hold the head in the vertical", the horse holds itself in self carriage in the vertical, they have developed the muscles along the back and neck to do this over time and have to come off the forehand and use there hind quarters to do so.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I say y'all don't understand western riding because y'all attack evil curb bits forcing a horse to submit thru pain. Or you write "How on earth can you compare the way a racehorse moves to the way a normal riding horse should?" You totally miss the idea that a horse does NOT need to hold its head vertical to be light or responsive to the rider.When someone writes "Bringing a horses head down into the correct position...", it assumes the lowered head IS the correct position. And the racehorse picture was to show how Mia looks when she gets excited 'racing' another horse on the trail, and why a snaffle doesn't work well then.

But it isn't wrong for a horse to look around, and it isn't wrong for a horse to adjust its balance on unlevel terrain by freely using its neck and head - just as they do when without a rider. There is no advantage to the horse, or to most out-of-arena riding to having the horse 'rounded'. They don't live longer or perform better, unless you DESIRE slower gaits and lots of turns.

Outside the arena, if someone needs to go from point A to point B, then the best way is the way that allows the horse to do so with the least expenditure of energy. That doesn't come from supporting weight with the rear legs. It comes from the rear legs providing mostly thrust, while the front mostly carry weight - just as a horse does without a rider. A forward seat is more work, but the beauty of it is that it allows the horse to travel across the ground more efficiently than a center balance.

Most recreational riders, including me, have a hard time riding a true forward seat. Doing it hunt seat style is a lot of work, and doing it for hours on end would be tough even for a rider who rides 3 hours/DAY instead of 3 hours/WEEK. But a modified seat, with long legs, weight carried more in the thigh than rump, center of gravity closer to the horses - that frees the horse up to move relaxed and efficiently.

Traditional western riding carries more weight in the seat, but emphasizes moving at the hip to move your weight WITH the horse, rather than just sitting like a sack of potatoes. It is less tiring, but the more forward placement of the leg allows one to bend forward at the hip and almost instantly convert to a forward seat.

The use of a western curb isn't tough for a lot of horses to figure out. Mia was moving happier and calmer than she had in a snaffle within 3-4 rides. Other horses, like Trooper, may not care. But using slack in the reins and allowing her freedom to move her head allows her to look around, to adjust her balance, and to focus on the area ahead that she needs to be looking at - because it probably is not level.

"A horse is started in a snaffle, and worked up to a shanked bit, then goes into a curb."

Nice, but Mia started in a rope halter, moved to a snaffle, fought the snaffle regularly over an 18 month period...then was acting calm in a western curb within 3 rides. Hmmm...maybe horses DO have a vote. Maybe some horses LIKE riding in a curb.

If it took special skill or knowledge to ride a horse relaxed in a curb bit, I couldn't do it. If it required a lot of experience to transition a horse from snaffle to curb, I couldn't do it. But Mia & I did it, in about 3 rides...so maybe it doesn't take a long, integrated training system. Maybe it makes sense to some horses.

If someone thinks it is a big challenge for a horse to ride softly in a western curb, then I cannot stop them. All I can do is tell the truth - Mia found it easy, and so did I. And yes, she is responsive even though her head isn't carried vertically. Her back is loose, even without a vertical headset. On average, riding down a trail, her neck is lower ridden in a curb than in a snaffle - because she relaxes more.

There is a lot of hogwash promulgated in the equine world. One is that a horse needs to carry more weight on the rear than it naturally does in order to be light or responsive. Light, relaxed and responsive are good goals for a recreational rider. When VS Littauer was young, he wrote that no horse was controlled unless on the bit. When much older, he argued that riders who rode hours/week instead of hours/day were better off avoiding contact. Along with the US Cavalry, he concluded:










Worrying about headset is worrying about the wrong part of the horse. Worry about the back, and the movement of the horse. Is the horse moving comfortably? Is the horse calm? Is the horse responding quickly to your inputs? Is the horse listening to you while also looking where it is going? Then you are in decent shape.

Are the horse's ears next to your teeth? Is the back stiff and rigid? Is the horse tense? Does the horse ignore your leg or bit? Then you have a problem. And one potential problem, as Col Chamberlin noted, might be that you are pushing the horse to carry his head in an unnatural position, resulting in "irritability, nervousness, and inability to jump or gallop fast across country...".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_D._Chamberlin

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_littauer


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

Couple of comments here: I've never liked that particular video of Brannaman: I think his horse is behind the bit, and looks afraid of it. 

About tie-downs in general: when your horse is USED to it, I feel it could be dangerous to suddenly remove it before a trail ride. I never use tie-down of any kind, but I know some older women who will add it to their tack when their horses start getting excited. Of course, it's all about "adjustments"-- if too short it can certainly cause a horse to panic...what is "too short"? But seeing all the ropers, for example, who never ride without one, I can't call them evil, even if I don't like them.

About the curb: Linda Tellington-Jones also used to use what looked like a big, ugly curb on a lot of her troubled horses. I think they appreciate the on-then-OFF simplicity of its action.


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

This is an interesting article about natural movement at liberty and collection ::: Sustainable Dressage - Collection & Its Evasions - Natural & Natural+ - The Difference Between the Ridden Horse and the Non-Ridden :::


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Beling - I agree the horse does look slightly behind the bit in that video - I posted it to show that western riders can and do work their horses in whats thought of as a collected style that some think is exclusive to the dressage world. The main thing about it is that the horse is on a very relaxed rein and not being held there by force.
*bsms* I cant see where anyone has said that shanked bits or gag bits or any other bits for that matter are evil or cruel. Its the hands on the bits that cause pain which is why they shouldn't be used by inexperienced people as a band aid for poor training or poor riding skills
If you think about it riding out on trails or roads actually exposes people and horses to far more risks than many horse sports so I don't understand the attitude of 'well it doesn't really matter how well we ride or how well trained and obedient our horses are because we only ride for fun. having a horse that's really responsive to the bit or whatever bitless option they prefer is going to make that horse 100% safer which is really important in my books.


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

jaydee said:


> If you think about it riding out on trails or roads actually exposes people and horses to far more risks than many horse sports so I don't understand the attitude of 'well it doesn't really matter how well we ride or how well trained and obedient our horses are because we only ride for fun. having a horse that's really responsive to the bit or whatever bitless option they prefer is going to make that horse 100% safer which is really important in my books.


 
Totally agree, I do more lateral work on the road than in my lessons :lol: My horse needs to be constantly listening to me to allow for sudden sideways moves to avoid the odd surprising bicycle or overtaking cars that haven't considered on coming traffic.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Clava said:


> This is an interesting article about natural movement at liberty and collection ::: Sustainable Dressage - Collection & Its Evasions - Natural & Natural+ - The Difference Between the Ridden Horse and the Non-Ridden :::


EXCELLENT website. Thank You!


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Loads and loads and loads and loads of half halts will teach the head set. It ALL starts from throwing their weight back to the haunches and using their "brakes" that way, instead of yanking on the bit. Arabs are the Border Collies of the horse world and they LOVE to work. Teach your Arab to listen to your weight to halt and transition down, and he'll love you even more.
"Corporal", Arabian, (1982-2009, RIP)


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Ah, you have a nice long rail. In a snaffle, ride your horse about 6-8' off the rail and parallel at the trot. Turn her into the rail to reverse direction and head back the other way, staying off the rail. She'll likely stop the first time and that's ok, just urge her back up into the trot. When her head starts coming up turn her back. Keep working the rail like this for half a dozen turns each way. What is happening is she's beginning to get her hindquarters under her and her head should start relaxing. It's when her head rises, she's stringing out again and that is when you turn back to get that collection again. You will begin to notice that she will maintain it gradually longer and longer. You will also notice how her trot feels nicer when she's rounded.


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## Sahara (Jul 23, 2010)

To bsms: Out of curiosity, did you ever try an non-leverage bit that wasn't designed with a single-jointed mouthpiece on Mia?


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## Bagheera (Apr 23, 2013)

Hmmm.... I was in the process of retraining my TB when he passed away. He was a giraffe for quite sometime as well. When he was giraffing around, at a trot for example, he was dropping his shoulders, pulling himself along with his front end, not using his back, and had a shortened stride. Once he'd learned to accept and reach into contact, his stride became longer and lighter. He was never forced to the contact as has been suggested dressage riders do. He willing reached into it. This enabled him to use his back, push from behind, lengthen his stride, and really stretch forward. I believe that this is what the OP is trying to achieve. Bagheera was never in a high frame like you see upper level dressage horses in. He was not strong enough to carry himself that way. It was more of a long and low frame, say training level. I allowed him to carry himself as he pleased for many years. Once I began the retraining process, he became stronger, more balanced, and far more relaxed. He was much happier being a dressage horse than being a runaway giraffe jumper.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Yes. I tried several french link snaffles and a Waterford. Also D-rings, eggbutt, loose-ring & full-cheek.

98% of the time, Mia is fine. If she thinks she is in a race - which happens anytime we are out of the arena and go fast near another horse - then she extends out and wants to run, run, run! And when she extends out, the snaffle goes into the corner of her mouth - which was the point of the racehorse picture. At that point, it is worthless. And since Mia figured out that extending like that makes it worthless, paying attention to a snaffle became optional.

OTOH, she responded very well the first time I put her in an elevator bit. The Billy Allen curb came as a better option for neck reining. It took about 3 rides for her to get comfortable with it. Since then, the difference has been night & day.

It really isn't too surprising that pressure on the poll would work well with some horses. It also seems obvious that it is easy to be light on the mouth of a western curb bit, since you normally ride them with slack in the reins. It felt a bit odd at first, but she has responded well to communicating via how much slack is in the reins, and to neck reining. Her neck reining needs more work, but it is getting better with each week of riding.

I understand that is not everyone's goal, and I don't expect everyone to go out and buy a western curb bit. I've tried it with Trooper, and seen no change in his behavior. He's just a calm, reliable horse day in and day out, which is why my youngest daughter refuses to ride any other horse. I've tried all the different snaffles I own on him, and the curb, and he doesn't change. Trooper is a little trooper, hence the name. Which is odd, because his sire was semi-dangerous, and loved to work the meanest cattle he could find. Trooper doesn't like cattle, so he was mostly used on sheep before coming to us.

Here is our normal riding environment. Maybe it will explain why some choices work well for me & mine:
























































In most places, anything faster than a gentle jog is too hard on their feet, at least barefoot - too many rocks! Sharp turns are almost all 180 - usually Mia & I turning back to 'catch' the others lagging behind. There are gopher holes in some of the trails. Cholla cactus can grow above a horse's back, and extend out into the trail. I've never met anyone on the trail whose horse had their head vertical. There isn't even a minimal attempt at collection. That isn't proper for traveling across the terrain. It would be a huge waste of energy.

Mia originally didn't know to lift her feet over a small rock. I noticed on yesterday's ride that she now scans ahead and takes the sides of gullies that offer the least resistance for the next 30 yards instead of just what is easiest at a moment. That *IS* "proper riding" in this context. And please notice: no giraffe necks here. No star gazing. Just horses trying to get from A to B without hurting their feet or themselves, with the least effort they can.

BTW - all the horses were in snaffles in these pictures. I don't have any trail pictures of Mia in a curb, and the other two horses still use snaffles.


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## Bagheera (Apr 23, 2013)

Sorry about the second post. I forgot to add this in time. Lots of bending exercises at every gait will help with the giraffe head. Also, keep the horses attention engaged. Do lots of patters. Tear drops, half circles, moving in and out of a circle, serpentines, etc. Straight lines are your enemey! Lol


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## As You Wish (May 22, 2013)

I want to thank everyone for wonderful thoughts, tips and suggestions. The somewhat heated but healthy "discussions" on the subject were interesting and I have learned alot. I tried some of the techniques last night and by the end of our session she, Bella not Tie, was getting the hang of it. We have a lot of work to do but it will all be worth in in a few months, I can feel it.

Thanks Again everyone


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## As You Wish (May 22, 2013)

Bagheera said:


> Sorry about the second post. I forgot to add this in time. Lots of bending exercises at every gait will help with the giraffe head. Also, keep the horses attention engaged. Do lots of patters. Tear drops, half circles, moving in and out of a circle, serpentines, etc. Straight lines are your enemey! Lol


Last night we circled, and circled and circled, did figure 8's, several patterns, everything I could think of and it really helped. She started moving better at the end of our session. Thanks for the advice.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Circles, smaller, bigger, lots of changing hands, serpentines, shoulder in's going in and coming out of turns in the corners, leg yields, all that nice stuff where she never knows what will come next and starts concentrating on your aids


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## Bagheera (Apr 23, 2013)

I'm glad it helped! I would also invest in some books about basic dressage exercises or even reining exercises. Both disciplines have excellent books on riding exercises that you should find useful.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Good luck with your progress. it will be worth every minute of the effort you put in - honestly!!!
Would be nice to see some progress pics in a months time


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## SketchyHorse (May 14, 2012)

Kamakazi said:


> A horse with a natural high headset (such as an arab) will panic if you try to use training tack to "correct the problem." (not saying that arabs headsets are the problem, i grew up riding arabs).
> I think it's more of a discomfort for the rider than the horse. My advice is to just adapt yourself. You can't ask a horse to do something it's not bred for. *The arab is never going to be a peanut roller and you shouldn't expect it to be*.


My Arab will peanut roll... She's not very straight necked about it as she doesn't HAVE a long neck, but she will peanut roll. 










It's not impossible for a horse that's built for a higher head carriage to hold it lower. Once Lily had the proper muscles for it - this became her natural carriage of her neck/head. Since she's out of shape & lacks the muscles that once made this necessary, yes, she's gone back to nose up in the air. 

Like other people have said (I stopped reading shortly after the quoted post), do circles or anything but going straight. Do circles, push her forward, and ask her to seek contact with the bit. I sometimes open my inside rein a little to help the bend to the inside & seek contact. You'll get there. Ditch the running martingale too. For a horse who doesn't know to soften & collect it can create the opposite response you want. Instead she'll fight against it and it won't allow you to open your reins if you need to.


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