# How do we look?



## PintoTess (Aug 18, 2010)

This is a photo from today, how do we look? I think it is pretty good....We were dressage training with my friend. I was quiet happy with how she performed, I did have a video but stupid me deleted it!!

It has only been edited to brighten it a bit


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## PintoTess (Aug 18, 2010)

Bump Bump!


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## jumping lover (Jan 5, 2011)

hey, i do not do dressage, i am a hunter, but i will still critique you as far i know, sorry if it's not helpful. I think your position is very good as far as your back,  it is very straight, and your shoulders are back. i dont know if this applies to dressage but one of the rules i know is there should be a verticle line through your shoulders, hips, and heels, and your shoulders and hips are in a perfect line, just maybe your heel could come back a bit more.

also, i cant tell too much in the picture but i think that your elbows are pointing out, if you bring your elbows in so they are in a straight line from them to your hands horizontally then that is where they should be. also your hands look like they are in a position that i find hard to explain, not in any way to be disrespectful, but the only way i can explain it is they are in the position that they would be in if you were playing volleyball, so i would snap them up, (also hard to explain) 

so this is my hunter critique, sorry if what i said is totally wrong,  i know nothing about dressage but figured you might want my opinion .

but overall you look really great that is just me looking at everything 

great job, and your horse/pony looks great too, 

jumpinglover.


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## Frankiee (Jun 28, 2010)

I agree with what jumping lover said your hips, heels, and shoulder should be a line ! and i think you could even bring your strirrups down a little more like maybe one hole it may help. and like my coach always points out to me its more pleasant to the eyes when your hands are in a position of "giving more" not saying your poling on your horses mounth cause your NOT. but the bit and your elbows should bee in a straight line . 


you guys look great tho love you horse !


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Looks to me like the alignment issues are stemming from the saddle. It also looks to be a bit far up on the horse's shoulder.
Your hands are what stick out to me, as jl pointed out, your elbows must be resting ON your sides and your hands need to come down and forward quite substantially.

The horse looks to be sucking behind the bit slightly - I would like to see her neck stretch out to create a good contact with the bit. By adjusting your hand position and shortening your reins this should be made easier for her. Once your elbows are firmly pressed onto your sides it will be impossible for you to pull - meaning she will always have an inviting contact to stretch to, provided you are holding onto the reins and "feeling" through your fingers.

Good luck!


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## PintoTess (Aug 18, 2010)

Thankyou, gosh was I off, we must be horrible! lol,we need work hey?

The saddle- is an all purpose not a dressage. I am getting my dressage saddle soon so that may help a little.


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## PintoTess (Aug 18, 2010)

Here's a few more.....not very good.....


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

I agree with Anebel that positional issues are stemming from your saddle. You appear to be gripping quite firmly with your knees which is making your lower leg swing forward. With the knee and lower leg in this position, your leg is not going to be effective at transmitting subtle aids. Gripping knees cause the shoulders to block - if you get a dressage saddle make sure it is one which you can comfortably relax your knee and thigh. I'm sure you'll see a difference in how your horse travels without the blocking of the shoulder. Having the saddle sitting on her shoulders is also gong to contribute to this blocking effect. 
You are rolling your pelvis forward so that you are sitting more on your pubic bone than your seat bones. This has also caused your back to arch, which means that your back is totally ineffective for absorbing any movement from the motion of the horse and you will find it difficult for any seat aid to come through and get a reaction from your horse, without having to back it up with leg and hand. 

Hands and elbow have already been mentioned in detail above so I won't go there. 

Overall, I think you need to take a big deep breath, and just relax!! You're tidy, but very tin-soldierish. I'd be interested to see a video of you ride, as I think, you might be blocking the horse in the back by sitting in such a stiff position. In this manner, you cannot apply subtle aids and allow the horse to flow and 'lift' you in the saddle. 
Some lunge lessons with no reins and stirrups would be beneficial for you to start to gain an independent seat, being able to move with the horse and not bracing yourself against its movement.


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## PintoTess (Aug 18, 2010)

I ride bareback alot. My balance is good.

I can't wait to get my new saddle, it will help. Also, when we were cantering in the first pic, I FELT relaxed. I wasn't moving and I wasn't forcing myslef to sit, it just happened. Ok so we have a few things to work on......

Thankyou!!!!


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## fuadteagan (Jun 10, 2010)

You kinda arch your back. It is fine , though. Your heels are down. Your hips are great.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Pinto Tess,

Don't feel bad. You should be happy. Most of the flaws (and these are minor) are things that can be corrected pretty easily. And the fact that it's your saddle that is causeing some of the positional issues should make you feel better, not worse. It means it's not your fault. 
And, keeping ones' elbows in is something that 99.9% of riders have to work and work on, right? I remember many lesson where my instructor would start to lecture me. Finally, I struck a deal with her (coulnd't stand the lecture anymore), "just say "Elbows!" to remind me" , and that's what she did. I am still working on it. Never ends.

I agre with Kayty in that you just come across as gripping with your knee and I think it's from trying perhaps a bit too hard to be really uprigth, also gets that curve in your back. 
Try just relaxing your legs. Ride as if you are an amputee and have no leg at all from just above the knee downward. Just as an exersize.

As always, you and Tess are a delightful pair, lively and colorful and full of life.


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## PintoTess (Aug 18, 2010)

I have a funny back as well lol. But when I get my new saddle it should be better.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Mate don't get upset. You asked for a critique and got it. We're being picky! This is how a person learns, if you want to be told that everything is perfect and don't change a thing, then don't ask for a critique. 
The flaws that have been pointed out, will help you improve your riding and get better. EVERY SINGLE PERSON needs to improve on how they ride. Go to Germany, you will see the top dressage riders in the world, still striving to improve their position and effectiveness of aid application. They WANT to be told their flaws, so they can fix them and be a better rider. 
If I pay for a lesson with someone, I consider it a waste of time and money, if I am told that I'm doing it all right and I'm perfect in every way. That's not why I ask for help, I ask for help because I KNOW that I have some pretty big flaws that need working on. 

A new, dressage saddle WILL help you, but there are some things that will need work from you as well. The thing is, you may feel relaxed, but you'd be surprised at how many muscles are actually bracing against the horse's movement. Hence it would be good to see a video, a photo is only a moment in time but with all 3 showing tension in your body it's a pretty safe guess that you are a fairly stiff rider. Not necessarily a bad thing - I'd rider a bit stiff and tidy, than a rider that is super loose and can't get their aids timed right and always look very messy. But we need to find a happy medium.
To relax and find where you are tense, close your eyes, and start at your feet - tense your toes for a few seconds, then relax. Move up to your ankle, then your calf and so on. This will help you find any spots that are tense without you realising it. 
I know that I am very tense across my shoulders and upper back, I am like that on and off the horse due to shoulder and back injuries sustained a few years ago. Because it has stemmed from an injury, it's hard for me to fix, but I still work very hard at it and I'm getting better. 
As a rider, we have to be able to accept criticism, and rather than bite back and want to hear that we're perfect, we need to take what is said on board, try out suggestions and hey, you may well end up a better rider for it. Particularly if you want to try your hand at pursuing dressage/ It is a VERY disciplined sport, and if you don't have the guts and mind of steel, then you won't make it. Quite simple. We cannot be offended by the comments of others when they are in an attempt to help you, not put you down.

Please take away from this thread that you ARE a lovely, tidy little rider and you DO have flaws, just like anyone else. If you go away and try to work on those, I promise you, your riding WILL improve.


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## PintoTess (Aug 18, 2010)

^^ Im not getting upset. I am greatful for it all believe me! Oh yeah, of course I have flaws  I don't mind admitting that. I AM taking the criticism.


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## Marlea Warlea (Apr 27, 2010)

all i can say is to keep your hands down, pretend your holding a cup of your fave drink and dont want it to spill


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## PintoTess (Aug 18, 2010)

I get told to keep my hands up. "Carry my hands" Is what I am told.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Yep carry your hands  You don't want to be riding with them sitting on the horse's wither. 
Basic rule of thumb for how high your hands should be, is that you want to draw a straight line from your elbow, to wrist, to hand, to bit. So if the horse is in long and low, then your hands are obviously going to be lower to follow the bit. A horse working at FEI level dressage in a competition frame, obviously the poll is carried higher than a horse at preliminary level, so the riders hands are carried higher to accommodate this.


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## PintoTess (Aug 18, 2010)

Ok so my hands are in the right position. Thats good. I compete Novice , and qualifying prelim state. I have a qualifier this weeekend and I will use all these tips to an advantage. Thankyou


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Kayty said:


> Yep carry your hands  You don't want to be riding with them sitting on the horse's wither.
> Basic rule of thumb for how high your hands should be, is that you want to draw a straight line from your elbow, to wrist, to hand, to bit. So if the horse is in long and low, then your hands are obviously going to be lower to follow the bit. A horse working at FEI level dressage in a competition frame, obviously the poll is carried higher than a horse at preliminary level, so the riders hands are carried higher to accommodate this.


 An *educated* hand should be carried above the wither. A rider having upper body balance issues and issues with getting the horse stretching to the bit should push the hand low and forward to stabilize her. The hands are NOT carried relative to the elevation of the neck (outside of "extreme classical" dressage and textbooks at least). Real world riders ride with low hands to maintain stability.

PT, your hands are NOT in the correct position. I would like to see them considerably lower and more forward and you SHOULD be using the horse's withers for support. When your hand, arm, elbow, wrist and body/upper arm are all able to move as competely independent parts THEN you can carry your hands above the wither.

Good luck!

PS. Sorry this is a minor pet peeve of mine. Hands should be carried where they are able to stabilize the rider, not where Anky van Grunsven, Isabelle Werth and Edward Gal hold them. When you are a rider like they are then you can hold them where-ever you **** well please, and I bet you, like Edward, will prefer to hold them low and forward because that is where your upper body and ability to hold contact is most stable.


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## Marlea Warlea (Apr 27, 2010)

ha... weird... i have always been told to put your hands so they are just infront of your sadle


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> An *educated* hand should be carried above the wither. A rider having upper body balance issues and issues with getting the horse stretching to the bit should push the hand low and forward to stabilize her. The hands are NOT carried relative to the elevation of the neck (outside of "extreme classical" dressage and textbooks at least). Real world riders ride with low hands to maintain stability.
> 
> PT, your hands are NOT in the correct position. I would like to see them considerably lower and more forward and you SHOULD be using the horse's withers for support. When your hand, arm, elbow, wrist and body/upper arm are all able to move as competely independent parts THEN you can carry your hands above the wither.
> 
> ...


Yes Anebel I am aware that the most stable and educated position is just above the wither. However - they are not facing down and leaning on the wither, and not 'holding' the rider where they are by essentially bracing on the wither for the entire ride. Also note - the line from elbow - wrist - hand - bit is still very much there. I am not talking hold your hands up around your ears :roll:
Having the hands low and close to the body/saddle is NOT going to stablise a rider. Without the hands being forward and carried (yes, above the wither is carried, not supported), the upper body will have a tendency to tip forward, and the arms will have an extremely decreased range of motion if they are needed, and far less sensitivity if carried into the rider's body.
THIS is what I was implying in my above post. NOT that the rider should carry their hands ridiculously high. Again refer to my reference of : the elbow, wrist, hand, bit line. OBVIOUSLY the hands are going to be carried lower in long and low, and high in a competition, collection frame. THAT is an absolute no brainer. Now, following my 'line' reference/rule what have you, you will note, that the carried hands in collection, are still in line with the bit and not carried sky high. 

Sorry, THIS is a pet peeve of mine.


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## PintoTess (Aug 18, 2010)

Ok thanks.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Kayty said:


> Yes Anebel I am aware that the most stable and educated position is just above the wither. However - they are not facing down and leaning on the wither, and not 'holding' the rider where they are by essentially bracing on the wither for the entire ride. Also note - the line from elbow - wrist - hand - bit is still very much there. I am not talking hold your hands up around your ears :roll:
> Having the hands low and close to the body/saddle is NOT going to stablise a rider. Without the hands being forward and carried (yes, above the wither is carried, not supported), the upper body will have a tendency to tip forward, and the arms will have an extremely decreased range of motion if they are needed, and far less sensitivity if carried into the rider's body.
> THIS is what I was implying in my above post. NOT that the rider should carry their hands ridiculously high. Again refer to my reference of : the elbow, wrist, hand, bit line. OBVIOUSLY the hands are going to be carried lower in long and low, and high in a competition, collection frame. THAT is an absolute no brainer. Now, following my 'line' reference/rule what have you, you will note, that the carried hands in collection, are still in line with the bit and not carried sky high.
> 
> Sorry, THIS is a pet peeve of mine.


 Well here we are going to have to agree to disagree.
It is in my experience that without a rider learning to rest her hands infront of the saddle they will not become independent. The line from elbow to bit will suitably be maintained as the elbow also lowers to meet the hip and the horse's head and neck are held in a correct position where the neck is stretching to meet the contact, stabilized by the rider's resting hand on the wither, which should not move relaitve to the mouth in a good contact. Even in the collection, nothing changes relative to each other, simply the horse's haunches lower and take more weight relative to the ground. The rider's position does not change, especially not relative to the horse, and especially not the hands.
The arms do not need motion when riding. The wrists and fingers merely need to feel while the seat and legs do the bulk of the work.
And yes - this position does feel insensitive until the rider is able to move the hands independently and learns to use their body to position the horse correctly. Once the rider learns to ride correctly and not with the hands - all the "lost" sensitivity is regained with the bonus of an educated hand which is no longer required for basic functions. In my opinion once this position is gotten used to the sensitivity is actually increased, as relative motion to the horse is lessened and the hand simply feels the mouth. Before the hand so high is not relative to the horse, it is realtive to the rider so in order to feel the mouth and only the mouth it is having to dampen out the effects of the rider's body on the hand. This effect is increased if the elbows are out in space somewhere and makes it nearly impossible for the hands to feel any motion relative to the base of the neck. They are simply aware of a) what is going on in the mouth and b) what is going on where ever the rider's elbow is. When the hand is resting or still relative to the wither, the hand becomes aware also of motion at the base of the neck, and can thereby feel the motion of the whole neck as they have a point of reference at both ends of it (the bit and the withers).
The stabilization I speak of with the lowering of the hand is the combined action of lowering of the shoulders and "hugging" of the body with the elbow and upper arm. This serves to engage the back and core muscles. The upper arm becomes a part of the upper body and the horse can no longer pull the rder out of the tack because she is stabilized, without tension.


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## PintoTess (Aug 18, 2010)

I don't use my hands to stabalise my body. I don't need to ride with reins. I have been riding for 7 years now and have grown out of the "Use the reins for balance" stage. I have an independent seat. You may not be able to see it but I do. 

And also, by carrying my hands lower at the canter my elbows won't be bent. And she won't lift in front am I correct? Please don't yell at me if I am not.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

PintoTess said:


> I don't use my hands to stabalise my body. I don't need to ride with reins. I have been riding for 7 years now and have grown out of the "Use the reins for balance" stage. I have an independent seat. You may not be able to see it but I do.
> 
> And also, by carrying my hands lower at the canter my elbows won't be bent. And she won't lift in front am I correct? Please don't yell at me if I am not.


It is your arms that stabilize your body. You need to have them positioned correctly to engage core muscles correctly, the same way we ask a horse to go a certain way to engage the right muscles. Putting your hands, elbows and shoulders down is the position that will stabilize the body.

I never said you were using the reins for balance, using your hands to hold yourself up or that your seat isn't independent. Simply to get the next level of finesse the seperation of each of your body parts needs to become more pronounced. You need to be more stable in the saddle and your hands need to be still relative to the horse, not relative to your body. To achieve this, your hands need to be down.

The elevation of the hands has nothing to do with how uphill a horse is. If that theory was correct then we'd all have our hands to our ears and every horse in the world ridden like this would magically be collected.
The relative elevation of the fore in relation to the hind is purely a function of how much weight the horse is able to take behind. How much weight the horse is able to take behind is a function of how fit and strong they are with correct muscling. How fit, strong and correctly muscled a horse is, is a function of their training. Their training is a function of the correctness and effectiveness of the rider. The correct and effective position of a rider is mostly based on how they are able to isolate parts of their body and move with the horse without hindering him and effectively making corrections. This happens when the seat moves with the back and the hand moves with the withers. How can the hand move with the withers if they are carried 6" above them? 
It may feel awkard at first. However, to lower the hand the whole arm must get lower. The shoulder is driven down to the hips, the elbows are rested on the hips (the bones should physically be touching) and then the hand is easily able to rest on the withers/neck. As long as the elbows are not locked straight and are rested on the hip bones, there is enough bend.

I hope that was a decent explaination!


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## Hali (Jun 17, 2009)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> It is your arms that stabilize your body. You need to have them positioned correctly to engage core muscles correctly, the same way we ask a horse to go a certain way to engage the right muscles. Putting your hands, elbows and shoulders down is the position that will stabilize the body.
> 
> I never said you were using the reins for balance, using your hands to hold yourself up or that your seat isn't independent. Simply to get the next level of finesse the seperation of each of your body parts needs to become more pronounced. You need to be more stable in the saddle and your hands need to be still relative to the horse, not relative to your body. To achieve this, your hands need to be down.
> 
> ...


First of all - sorry to throw thread off topic.

Anebel - I'm very curious about the bolded statement. When you say the bones should be physically touching do you literally mean that your elbows should be touching your hip bones?

I'm sitting in my chair physically trying to do this and I literally cannot without slouching forward. When I try to keep my back straight, it's major kill on the abs. Is this something that becomes easier with time or do I just have abnormally short arms. 

I just find that totally intriguing!


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## PintoTess (Aug 18, 2010)

Ok thankyou
In the show ring, I have my hands lower but in dressage I carry them a little higher. I have always been told to carry them but I will have to give lowering them a go.


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## WoodvillePark (Jan 12, 2011)

I think in the first picture your hands are a little high. As someone said that there should be a straight diangal from your elbow to your horses bit.Where it the trot pictures it better. In the canter is what I'm talking about, please don't take this the wrong way. By the way PintoTess I really want to steal Tess off you she is one beatuiful horse!! Does she jump as well? I would love to see pictures of her jumping!!


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## PintoTess (Aug 18, 2010)

She is more of a jumper than anything. I have another thread with jumping pics.  Thankyou


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## WoodvillePark (Jan 12, 2011)

Could you find that I would love to look at more of her jumping photos


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## Can He Star (Mar 9, 2011)

Overall I think that you look good but looking at thE photo looking specifically at your position I do agree that your back could be straighter in some photos and you could sit forward a little more in the saddle. Also think that you could relax a bit more through ur but muscles and maybe lengthen stirups in a few photos but whatching you there and then overall u look great 
Keep it up


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## PintoTess (Aug 18, 2010)

^^ Thanks maddie


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## apachewhitesox (Dec 9, 2010)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Well here we are going to have to agree to disagree.
> It is in my experience that without a rider learning to rest her hands infront of the saddle they will not become independent. The line from elbow to bit will suitably be maintained as the elbow also lowers to meet the hip and the horse's head and neck are held in a correct position where the neck is stretching to meet the contact, stabilized by the rider's resting hand on the wither, which should not move relaitve to the mouth in a good contact. Even in the collection, nothing changes relative to each other, simply the horse's haunches lower and take more weight relative to the ground. The rider's position does not change, especially not relative to the horse, and especially not the hands.
> The arms do not need motion when riding. The wrists and fingers merely need to feel while the seat and legs do the bulk of the work.
> And yes - this position does feel insensitive until the rider is able to move the hands independently and learns to use their body to position the horse correctly. Once the rider learns to ride correctly and not with the hands - all the "lost" sensitivity is regained with the bonus of an educated hand which is no longer required for basic functions. In my opinion once this position is gotten used to the sensitivity is actually increased, as relative motion to the horse is lessened and the hand simply feels the mouth. Before the hand so high is not relative to the horse, it is realtive to the rider so in order to feel the mouth and only the mouth it is having to dampen out the effects of the rider's body on the hand. This effect is increased if the elbows are out in space somewhere and makes it nearly impossible for the hands to feel any motion relative to the base of the neck. They are simply aware of a) what is going on in the mouth and b) what is going on where ever the rider's elbow is. When the hand is resting or still relative to the wither, the hand becomes aware also of motion at the base of the neck, and can thereby feel the motion of the whole neck as they have a point of reference at both ends of it (the bit and the withers).
> The stabilization I speak of with the lowering of the hand is the combined action of lowering of the shoulders and "hugging" of the body with the elbow and upper arm. This serves to engage the back and core muscles. The upper arm becomes a part of the upper body and the horse can no longer pull the rder out of the tack because she is stabilized, without tension.


Sorry to get this thread a little off track but I just have a few questions. I got a bit confused does this mean you hands are meant to stay kind of glued to the area just above your horses withers? Does it mean your hands shouldn't move at all? Or do they kind of move with the motion of the horse as long as they stay above the withers? Sorry for all the questions I guess I kind of just need it dumbed down a bit. Thanks for any help.


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## Can He Star (Mar 9, 2011)

no problem!!!


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## VanillaBean (Oct 19, 2008)

Hey, Tess is looking amazing as always!
I noticed a bit of a chair seat, and your hands are bit bit up. I'm not sure if your hands are up there on purpose? (I ride with my hands almost by my knees with Sheena...)
Lookin' good!

VB


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## hunterjumper8 (Mar 31, 2011)

Your position looks good, besides the elbow part that people have already talked about. Your horse is not on the bit however. This could be because she just isnt being pushed up from behind and into the bit or she could have issues with trying to escape the bit. I would suggest sitting deep, keeping contact with her mouth and driving her up into the bit so that she is in a more "working" form. You guys both look good besides those small things.


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## PintoTess (Aug 18, 2010)

She was on the bit through the whole test but I think the photo was taken the wrong moment


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## Cinder (Feb 20, 2011)

In all of the pictures you look way too stiff. I would relax a bit and remember to breathe. 

In some of the pictures your heels are up or kinda eh. I would work on getting them consistently down and down MORE. 

I would like to see your hands up a tad more but at least they aren't in your lap like mine :lol:.

Overall I think you have very good posture I just think you need to relax a little. I hope I helped!


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Hali said:


> First of all - sorry to throw thread off topic.
> 
> Anebel - I'm very curious about the bolded statement. When you say the bones should be physically touching do you literally mean that your elbows should be touching your hip bones?
> 
> ...


 This is the point!! It engages your core muscles and your core muscles are what stabilize you. It gets easier with time, and after you get over the inital muscle soreness I think you'll find it is a stabilizing position.

To apache - the head of the horse should not move relative to the neck which should not move relative to the withers. So if you are resting your hands on the withers your hands will not have motion relative to the head/mouth. This allows the rider to learn how to hold a contact. When this independent motion of the hand gets easier, the hand can be lifted slightly above the withers. Even I have days where I have to put my hands on the withers to get my feeling for the contact back, especially on a young horse.

Good luck!


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## PintoTess (Aug 18, 2010)

Just wanted to let yall know how I went on my dressage comp yesterday.

We got 2nd in the Prelim 1c and 4th in the prelim 1d. So we went really good. I am much closer to qualifying for state!


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