# Wondering what color my mare is?



## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

From what I can see of her muzzle, it's uniformly black. Therefore I think she is a fading black. That can be nutrition-related but it can also just be the individual horse's reaction to sun and sweat.


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## torthorse (Mar 23, 2015)

phantomhorse13 said:


> From what I can see of her muzzle, it's uniformly black. Therefore I think she is a fading black. That can be nutrition-related but it can also just be the individual horse's reaction to sun and sweat.


Her muzzle is entirely black, as are her points and mane and tail. Those areas never fade so it just confused me lol.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Fading black that is diet/nutrition related or smokey black as they fade excessively. I see marks that I would attribute to sweat fading too.


The smokey black that we had was jet black twice a year. When both his summer and winter coat came in. Once the sun had time to work its magic he turned a beautiful honey color in the same pattern as your mare minus the sweat tracks.


My brown mare also does this when her coat changes turning so dark she looks black but she has the tell tale coloration that goes with brown on her muzzle.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

What breed?

Bleached black is likely.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

My black mare in one of the worst times of her fading from sun and sweat was about that color or lighter even. I changed her mineral supplement to include more copper and zinc. That has helped all three of my horses keep their truer colors.


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## Boo Walker (Jul 25, 2012)

Ditto the copper and zinc, plus sponge off saddle and girth areas after exercise.


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## torthorse (Mar 23, 2015)

ApuetsoT said:


> What breed?
> 
> Bleached black is likely.


Not sure what breed, she came from a hoarding situation and we have almost no information on her.


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## torthorse (Mar 23, 2015)

Boo Walker said:


> Ditto the copper and zinc, plus sponge off saddle and girth areas after exercise.


Any recommendation for cooper/zinc supplements? And I never really work her, she's just a pasture ornament because of what I can only assume is an old injury to her legs. She's not ridable and any kind of lunging or work above a walk makes her go lame.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Wow, she's very faded for a black. 

My black mare fades a bit, especially in her saddle and girth area from sweating. But not nearly as much as the OP's mare. Does anyone know, is a slight amount of fading pretty much a guaranteed if you ride a black horse and keep them out in the weather, or is it reasonable to expect to be able to keep them truly black without fading at all?

My mare actually seems to keep black most of the time except right before she sheds out in fall and spring. Then she will have some rust tinge to her. Just curious if that is pretty well optimal or if some type of mineral supplement would help her as well?


I'm sort of short on photos of her, especially faded. She is slightly faded in this photo, towards her hind end. But it gets more noticeable than this.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

torthorse said:


> Any recommendation for cooper/zinc supplements? And I never really work her, she's just a pasture ornament because of what I can only assume is an old injury to her legs. She's not ridable and any kind of lunging or work above a walk makes her go lame.


There is a supplement that I like called California Trace that has quite a bit of copper and zinc in it among other things. It also has selenium in it which you have to be careful with. California Trace also comes without selenium now as well. Another supplement that I like and am using now is Focus HF. Focus HF has quite a bit of iodine in it so I have to make sure that the salt that I give my girls doesn't have iodine in it. I don't give hard feed. If you do, you have to pay attention to what is in it so you don't over do some of the trace minerals. 

@trailhorserider Some black horses just don't fade as much as others. I've read that fading or turning the rust color is a good indication that they need more copper and of course zinc needs to be balanced out with the copper. They go hand in hand. 

I think that a lot has to do with genetics as far as the amount of fading. Horses, quite a bit of the time are overloaded with iron which in turn keeps copper and zinc from being utilized by the body as well.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Genetically there are fading black and non fading blacks. Nutrition deficiencies or imbalances can cause fading in a horse that wouldn't typically or cause it to be extreme in a horse that does. Add in the possibility of a cream gene and you'll definitely see fading. The extent could be more than you would expect from a fading black even if their nutrition is really good and there are no imbalances.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

trailhorserider said:


> Wow, she's very faded for a black.
> 
> My black mare fades a bit, especially in her saddle and girth area from sweating. But not nearly as much as the OP's mare. Does anyone know, is a slight amount of fading pretty much a guaranteed if you ride a black horse and keep them out in the weather, or is it reasonable to expect to be able to keep them truly black without fading at all?
> 
> ...


Fading can be a sign if a vitamin/mineral deficiency. BUT it does not guarantee a vitamin/mineral deficiency. I would NOT assume a horse has a deficiency just because they fade, there are plenty of horses that do not and still fade. Or horses that do but don't fade. It's mostly just genetics.

I have a seal brown that is essentially black and he does NOT fade, many seal browns do dramatically. I also know black horses that stay black. If your mare is on a good diet I wouldn't worry about her fading and not fading. As you've seen a lot of it is damage from sweat so that you can do something about (somewhat).

I agree the OPs horse is a black based horse that has faded. Sometimes a horse can be a dark brown or smokey black those tend to fade more but can be hard to tell. I would call her a black horse and a picture of her dark would help.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

@QtrBel beat me too it and worded it so much better lol

I just wanted to add assuming the horse is healthy that some people do intentionally go crazy trying to keep the color (sheets/no turnout or supplements etc). I will supplement the horse if that's a problem but their color is their color and I think that just needs to be accepted, I don't think oversupplementing a horse to try and keep a color that doesn't want to stay is in the horses best interest. Not saying that's a problem HERE just that I've seen it happen so it's very important to keep in mind that the color on a healthy horse is just that.


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

I have friesians. Both faded horribly until I added horsetech’s glanzen and blackenall to their diet. It is amazing the difference. You want to start the supplements this time of year. Horse tech cam out with their supplement “black” that combines the two supplements for ease of use. LOVE IT!!!


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Dehda01 said:


> I have friesians. Both faded horribly until I added horsetech’s glanzen and blackenall to their diet. It is amazing the difference. You want to start the supplements this time of year. Horse tech cam out with their supplement “black” that combines the two supplements for ease of use. LOVE IT!!!


I went and checked out the "Black 3" at the Horse Tech website. Sounds great but at $80 for what I calculated (hopefully correctly) to be about a 3 month supply, I don't think I will spring for it. I love my horse dearly, but I don't have a lot of disposable income. :frown_color:

What I have been thinking about is rice bran and paprika. I know rice bran gives her a beautiful coat and I just started reading a bit about paprika.

Has anyone had any good results with paprika? It's relatively cheap and they say it's a good source of copper as well as vitamin C and some other good stuff. What do you guys think of paprika? Has anyone tried it and do you think it makes a difference?

Now when she is just starting to shed would probably be a good time to give it a try. My horse actually doesn't fade too bad. And I'm not terribly worried about it. But if I could give her a little something inexpensive to help keep her black, I would do it. Black is my "dream color" and after about 20 years I finally have one. I didn't pick her for her color (a friend actually gave her to me) but I do adore her color!


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Yogiwick said:


> Fading can be a sign if a vitamin/mineral deficiency. BUT it does not guarantee a vitamin/mineral deficiency. I would NOT assume a horse has a deficiency just because they fade, there are plenty of horses that do not and still fade. Or horses that do but don't fade. It's mostly just genetics.
> 
> I have a seal brown that is essentially black and he does NOT fade, many seal browns do dramatically. I also know black horses that stay black. If your mare is on a good diet I wouldn't worry about her fading and not fading. As you've seen a lot of it is damage from sweat so that you can do something about (somewhat).
> 
> I agree the OPs horse is a black based horse that has faded. Sometimes a horse can be a dark brown or smokey black those tend to fade more but can be hard to tell. I would call her a black horse and a picture of her dark would help.


Thank you! I'm not terribly worried about it I am just curious since this subject came up and I happen to have a black horse too, that maybe there is something I could tweak to optimize her coat. 

I discovered just last summer that she will let me sponge her off after a ride. That is a big breakthrough (she is terrified of fly spray so I didn't think sponging would stand a chance). But I found out that after the first time of getting her used to the sponge and dripping water she actually enjoys it. Who'd have thought! She is also pretty well over her fly spray phobia now (lots of patience, praise and cookies). :tongue:


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## torthorse (Mar 23, 2015)

Yogiwick said:


> Fading can be a sign if a vitamin/mineral deficiency. BUT it does not guarantee a vitamin/mineral deficiency. I would NOT assume a horse has a deficiency just because they fade, there are plenty of horses that do not and still fade. Or horses that do but don't fade. It's mostly just genetics.
> 
> I have a seal brown that is essentially black and he does NOT fade, many seal browns do dramatically. I also know black horses that stay black. If your mare is on a good diet I wouldn't worry about her fading and not fading. As you've seen a lot of it is damage from sweat so that you can do something about (somewhat).
> 
> I agree the OPs horse is a black based horse that has faded. Sometimes a horse can be a dark brown or smokey black those tend to fade more but can be hard to tell. I would call her a black horse and a picture of her dark would help.


Here's a couple older pics of her, I kinda slacked on taking pictures this last year lol.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Pictures aren't great but no signs of brown. The agouti gives brown (NOT reddish black, actual "chestnut" red/brown) in spots- a bay will be mostly brown but a brown is less obvious, a seal brown can be jet black but they will still have SOME brown tones on them in the "soft spots" along the muzzle, the flank, etc. Found one of my seal brown guy (the one that doesn't fade) you can see his muzzle is still distinctly brown despite the rest of him being black.

I do NOT see that with your girl, so think her being black (E/? a/a) is pretty definite. She MIGHT also have a cream gene making her smokey black (what makes a buckskin) on a black horse many of them will still look jet black or maybe just a tiny bit off, it tends to not be noticeable (unlike a buckskin or palomino), but they usually fade like crazy. That seems less likely then her being a regular black that fades a lot though, it's simply less common.

ETA- my picture didn't come out well and the site isn't letting me swap to another one but hopefully you see what I mean despite the bad quality, the "cinnamon" color right around his nose?


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## lb27312 (Aug 25, 2018)

I have a black and white APHA gelding... he seems to stay black most of the time, a few times his mane has turned brown at the very ends of it... See pics:


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## Filou (Jan 16, 2014)

A little sidetrack,
@QtrBel and @Yogiwick
Would you be able to elaborate on the specific genetics between a fading and non fading black?

Is this a EE vs Ee thing?
Which one fades and which doesn't?
Do you have any evidence for this? I have always been interested in this and haven't gotten far with it in a scientific sense other than through personal observations. 

I wouldn't say that I'm a professional in the sense but I'm really interested in horse genetics and working with the dom white thoroughbreds really took it a step further, since those genes are even more unknown to us. 









Here's a picture of Dodge I took a couple days ago where you can see he is fading red. His winter coat grows in black, but now that it's been in for a few months it fades to red. When it sheds he will grow out black and will stay black all summer. I think this is due to the shortness of the hair follicle, but I always wonder more than that.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Fading vs non fading is more than just EE/Ee. I know Ee horses who don't fade at all. There's another component, but I don't think it has been identified. Definitely runs in lines though.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

It isn't as simple as EE vs Ee. There are other modifiers that effect the black coat. The research hasn't caught up with the theory. Sooty is a gene that IMO effects the degree to which a black fades. I say that looking at horses that I have or have known that carry sooty. The black from sooty doesn't fade IME. Add sooty to a black and there is no visual difference but where I have suspected it there were different fade patterns or little to no fade. I am sure there are other genes they will find that effect it.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

trailhorserider said:


> I went and checked out the "Black 3" at the Horse Tech website. Sounds great but at $80 for what I calculated (hopefully correctly) to be about a 3 month supply, I don't think I will spring for it. I love my horse dearly, but I don't have a lot of disposable income. :frown_color:
> 
> What I have been thinking about is rice bran and paprika. I know rice bran gives her a beautiful coat and I just started reading a bit about paprika.
> 
> ...



People have told me that they got good results from paprika and yes it's the copper in it that makes it effective. If you show at all where they test you don't want to use it as it will make a test come up positive. If you don't show, well no worries with that.

I supplement because the pasture that they are on is extremely lacking in mineral content except for iron, lots of iron. Years ago, I had them on a different pasture and my black horse still faded a little bit but no where near like she did where she's at now. I think that if you have pasture that is wet a lot, you are going to run into problems with pasture not having proper amounts of minerals in it. It has to be amended periodically.

Here is a pic of my mare in one of her worst times of fading and to tell you the truth, I don't think that she felt her best at this time either. The second pic is her from this past summer. This horse is homozygous black and does not carry the creme gene.


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## Filou (Jan 16, 2014)

QtrBel said:


> It isn't as simple as EE vs Ee. There are other modifiers that effect the black coat. The research hasn't caught up with the theory. Sooty is a gene that IMO effects the degree to which a black fades. I say that looking at horses that I have or have known that carry sooty. The black from sooty doesn't fade IME. Add sooty to a black and there is no visual difference but where I have suspected it there were different fade patterns or little to no fade. I am sure there are other genes they will find that effect it.


I'm wondering if there's different agouti genes that may effect it, since the horses don't fade on the legs. Not a big A, but maybe similar to At or A+, but little version, at, a+, etc... I know that A restricts black to legs and a doesn't but there could be more to it than that, and it makes sense to me at least since agouti does influence the legs. Similarly could explain the vast differences in chestnuts since there's so many more possibilities in variance there. Even those chestnut ones that have darker legs sometimes.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

LoriF said:


> People have told me that they got good results from paprika and yes it's the copper in it that makes it effective. If you show at all where they test you don't want to use it as it will make a test come up positive. If you don't show, well no worries with that.
> 
> *I don't show, so no worries there. I might test out the paprika. The only thing is, I don't know if she would like the taste of it. I hate to "ruin" her evening treats because she enjoys them so.*
> 
> ...


*My mare doesn't fade nearly that much. She get sort of rusty looking, but your girl could pass for some sort of sooty buckskin or dun in that top photo! 
*

*I was looking at her this morning and I didn't take a picture because she is muddy and dirty but she is somewhat faded right now, which makes sense because they will be shedding soon. Maybe if I get her cleaned up I will get a photo. *



Filou said:


> I'm wondering if there's different agouti genes that may effect it, since the horses don't fade on the legs. Not a big A, but maybe similar to At or A+, but little version, at, a+, etc... I know that A restricts black to legs and a doesn't but there could be more to it than that, and it makes sense to me at least since agouti does influence the legs. Similarly could explain the vast differences in chestnuts since there's so many more possibilities in variance there. Even those chestnut ones that have darker legs sometimes.



*That is an observation I have made with my black mare as well. I don't know anything about the genetics of it, but she will fade only on the body. Legs and mane/tail stay nice and black. So it's like the black body hair isn't the same as the black points. Like a black horse is another version of bay.......kinda, sorta, but not really! :think:*


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

PS. Here is a good example of brown, for comparison. This was my first horse, an Arabian gelding. :Angel:


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## JoBlueQuarter (Jan 20, 2017)

lb27312 said:


> I have a black and white APHA gelding... he seems to stay black most of the time, a few times his mane has turned brown at the very ends of it... See pics:


Wow, he is so beautiful! I have a real soft spot for the paints, especially black and white ones


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

Filou said:


> I'm wondering if there's different agouti genes that may effect it, since the horses don't fade on the legs. Not a big A, but maybe similar to At or A+, but little version, at, a+, etc...


ASIP is supposedly fully mapped in the horse, with there only being two alleles, A or a. But that doesn't mean there isn't another undiscovered locus/loci that will be found to control fading vs not or even shades within colors. And possible that mystery locus/loci interacts with ASIP to create phenotype. 


What is currently known about horse color genetics is much simpler than dogs or cats.. is that because there is actually less variation in horses or is more money being spent on small animal research?


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

I finally got around to having my mare tested and she is EEaa. I think that when a black horse fades as much as she did in that top picture, it is a combination of a black horse that has a tendency to fade coupled with lacking in certain minerals. She still fades a little in the summer but nearly as much as she did that one time. At the moment, they all get a combo of coastal, timothy, and alfalfa. Plus a small handful of hard feed to mix their mineral supplement in. I give way less hay in the summer otherwise they would be obese. I don't really like the pasture that they are on but for now, it is what it is.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

You can also rinse them with a cream rinse that has UV filters to help protect the coat as well as mane and tail. The mane and tail don't have to be done as frequently as the body. You dont have to go fill on and bathe them everytime just a good rinse with that added after getting the sweat gone.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

For what it's worth, I gave my mare a little paprika today with her "treats" and she didn't seem to taste it at all. Or if she did, she didn't say anything. :lol: Probably less than a tablespoon full, I wanted to give a small amount just to see if she objected and she didn't. 



So......I guess I will try the paprika trick. I don't think it will hurt, it's inexpensive, and well, it's the perfect time to try it because shedding season is getting ready to start. It seems like most recommendations are for 1-2 tablespoonfuls. I really didn't see any down-side to trying it.....right? I mean, it's food and I eat it myself (albeit not everyday). :shrug:


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

QtrBel said:


> You can also rinse them with a cream rinse that has UV filters to help protect the coat as well as mane and tail. The mane and tail don't have to be done as frequently as the body. You dont have to go fill on and bathe them everytime just a good rinse with that added after getting the sweat gone.



Sounds promising for after-ride rinsing in the summertime.


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## BarakES (Apr 16, 2019)

dark brown


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Black. Very very faded.

She may carry cream, she may not. There is no visible phenotypic difference between black and smoky black. Single cream does not affect black pigment (or else buckskins wouldn't have black points!). Double cream does, but there's massive overlap in double cream phenotypes. You cannot accurately phenotype cremello vs perlino vs smoky cream.

Fading (as well as the light ear fluff formerly attributed to cream) is more likely to be due to nd1 than cream.
And nd1 is a mutation at Dun. All horses are Dun, nd1 or nd2 (or any combination of one or two of the above). An nd1 will have primitive markings but little to no body dilution (thus, not dun), whereas an nd2 has no primitives and no dilution.


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