# Non pain-related tail swishing



## equestriem (Apr 1, 2018)

Hi guys! I have a 6 year old Arab gelding who was given to me because of behavioral problems. He is coming along fab and I'm getting more excited about having him as time goes on. 

A part of his behavioral problems was tail "swishing"

Except, when I watched them ride him, he really wasn't swishing it or wringing it like any other horse who was in pain or just being a jerk would do. 

He doesn't really flag it like he's excited, either. 

Now I want to premise this by saying he's been vetted twice, massaged and had chiropractic work done. He had that magnetic therapy thing done to him and it made no difference. He is not in pain and even though I had to dish out a grand to get a saddle to fit him, his saddle fits. 

He was also just plain arena sour and had a **** poor attitude about work which has gone away now.

HOWEVER, he still does this tail thing. 

And it's not typical swishing or wringing, or "I'm an excited Arab and I will hold my tail up" 

He just sort of picks it up high and sort of slaps me on the back with it every 3-5 canter strides. 

It's super weird and the dressage judges (he was doing training level when I got him) were assuming it was discomfort or disobedience and knocking points off his tests (another reason I have him, his owners were just frustrated that they wanted to show a perfectly nice horse and he always got crap scores from this).

Does anyone know why he might do this and what I can do to discourage it? 

And even though I don't think anyone on this site would suggest it, I have already been told by an old timer to just make him incapable of picking his tail up high enough to do this behavior and I'm not really into mutilating my horses so no thanks on that one


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

Well...he may be arena sour. Do you ever take him out on a trail where he has something to do other than go around and around????
There are horses who simply are not suited to the arena. You very well may have one of those horses. I'd suggest getting him out where he can move out and relax, and be ready to accept the fact that this may not be the horse to do what you want to do. If he is grumpy about the arena you are fighting a losing battle, IMHO. His tail is telling you something!


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Does he do anything other than dressage training and dressage tests? What does his life on and off the job look like? Would he have any reason, because of prior experience, to be anxious about being in the arena? 

I'm asking because I just rode a horse with exactly that issue: live in a box, get yanked out, get a double bit stuffed in her mouth, jerked around the arena for an hour, put back in the box. She was very anxious about her riding experience, so much so that my very *lesson* with her consisted of making her feel comfortable with me throughout.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

I like the responses of those above...good possibilities.
However if you have ruled out all chances of pain, irritation or such then it must fall into a "habit" category...

I'm not into mutilation of the body either, but wonder if a _temporary_ block of that nerve and muscle group would be a possibility... :shrug:
While the horse learns not to do that motion because it has a temporary block medication injected...maybe once that medication wears off the habit will be "un-learned"...
As it isn't permanent I don't see it as being "mutilation" but on the other hand, _discussed carefully with your vet_ to make sure the horse would still be able to swish the tail for fly defense and to show warning, displeasure and also to arch the tail as they work in happiness and contentment.

I don't know if something like this can even be done, but knowing that you can isolate leg and hoof areas with temporary numbing blocks I don't see why it could not be attempted...
I offer you good luck in finding a reason, a cause and a gentle solution.

Can't wait to hear what others have encountered, dealt with and had solutions to this....
Interesting it is...
:runninghorse2:....
_jmo..._


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

mmshiro said:


> Does he do anything other than dressage training and dressage tests? What does his life on and off the job look like? Would he have any reason, because of prior experience, to be anxious about being in the arena?
> 
> I'm asking because I just rode a horse with exactly that issue: live in a box, get yanked out, get a double bit stuffed in her mouth, jerked around the arena for an hour, put back in the box. She was very anxious about her riding experience, so much so that my very *lesson* with her consisted of making her feel comfortable with me throughout.


While I agree that variety is great for most horses, there is always the exception to the rule, some prefer the arena.

Same as Dressage being about shoving a double bit in their mouth and yanking them around is hopefully an exception.....of course there are abusive riders in all areas, but there is nothing in Dressage about jerking a horse around......far far from it. Your implication here is this is what the Op is doing, when in fact we know nothing about her style of riding, and if this is due to previous or present rider error.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Does he do the same thing when he's in the pasture? When he's being ridden out on the trail? If not, you probably have a horse who just doesn't like what he is being commanded to do. Solution is to give him something he enjoys doing, and work incrementally on changing his opinion of dressage. Which may never happen. 

Personally, medically altering a horse so that he can't express what he's feeling is to me a really crap solution.


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## equestriem (Apr 1, 2018)

Dustbunny said:


> Well...he may be arena sour. Do you ever take him out on a trail where he has something to do other than go around and around????
> There are horses who simply are not suited to the arena. You very well may have one of those horses. I'd suggest getting him out where he can move out and relax, and be ready to accept the fact that this may not be the horse to do what you want to do. If he is grumpy about the arena you are fighting a losing battle, IMHO. His tail is telling you something!


The original post states that he was arena sour and that issue being properly addressed was implied (he is literally only a trail horse right now ****). And I'm aware of the fact that tail wringing/swishing means SOMETHING, hence the post, but I'm posting because this is DIFFERENT than any kind of tail swishing behavior I've seen before and after 270 horses I've seen tail swishing before.


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## equestriem (Apr 1, 2018)

I should have mentioned that he IS NOT EVER worked in the arena these days unless the weather has been bad and he needs a 10 minute lunge. I thought the fact the the arena sour problem was mentioned would imply that I was addressing it. It's true, he does not like doing dressage ergo I don't make him dressage anymore (What a concept). It's too boring for his intelligence level and maybe if he was doing 3rd or 4th level already he'd be more interested, but he's too easily bored and playful to build the necessary foundation for a happy dressage horse. And please keep in mind, that it's not regular "I don't like this" tail swishing, it's something different.


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## equestriem (Apr 1, 2018)

Avna said:


> Does he do the same thing when he's in the pasture? When he's being ridden out on the trail? If not, you probably have a horse who just doesn't like what he is being commanded to do. Solution is to give him something he enjoys doing, and work incrementally on changing his opinion of dressage. Which may never happen.
> 
> Personally, medically altering a horse so that he can't express what he's feeling is to me a really crap solution.


Yes, he does it out on trail because he always does it. Only at a lope. He just holds his tail up most of the time and every few strides of canter he gives it a flick. No bucking, no ear pinning, no ****y face, no tightening of his back or tension of any other kind. Lope lope lope, flick.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

I would take the horse on some trails rides and see what he does with it. Maybe just ride around and enjoy the scenery without trying to do anything specific. It sounds like the horse is frustrated with riding in some way or it could have started that way and turned into a habit. Maybe doing something that doesn't ask for a lot or the same old thing might help.

@Golden Horse I don't think that @mmshiro was implying that the poster does that to the horse and/or that dressage riders do that. I think he was merely saying that's what happened to a mare in the past that he rode and she did this. At least, that is how I read it anyway.


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## equestriem (Apr 1, 2018)

horselovinguy said:


> I like the responses of those above...good possibilities.
> However if you have ruled out all chances of pain, irritation or such then it must fall into a "habit" category...
> 
> I'm not into mutilation of the body either, but wonder if a _temporary_ block of that nerve and muscle group would be a possibility... :shrug:
> ...


I think it's habitual too as he gives no other signs of tension or discomfort like pinning ears, tightening his back, bucking, sucking back, balking, nothing else besides the random slap on the back I get. Since I've ruled out that there's no REAL reason for it, (no longer sour and likes his job, no medical problems) it's just a matter of how to discourage him from doing it. 

My old coach gave me a lesson on him and honestly thought it was a happy thing, which is possible as he can be going along happy as anything and then... thwack lol


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Maybe you should club his tail polo style when you ride and keep from getting whacked ....


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

equestriem said:


> Yes, he does it out on trail because he always does it. Only at a lope. He just holds his tail up most of the time and every few strides of canter he gives it a flick. No bucking, no ear pinning, no ****y face, no tightening of his back or tension of any other kind. Lope lope lope, flick.


That would be really annoying.

Sounds to me like he thinks it's funny. Play back, grab that tail and don't let it go. Maybe he will stop if he doesn't like his tail being held onto.


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## equestriem (Apr 1, 2018)

Golden Horse said:


> While I agree that variety is great for most horses, there is always the exception to the rule, some prefer the arena.
> 
> Same as Dressage being about shoving a double bit in their mouth and yanking them around is hopefully an exception.....of course there are abusive riders in all areas, but there is nothing in Dressage about jerking a horse around......far far from it. Your implication here is this is what the Op is doing, when in fact we know nothing about her style of riding, and if this is due to previous or present rider error.



Thank You! He was given to me by good people who realized he had issues because he didn't want to be a dressage horse. He is a western trail horse now. And regardless, I am offended by the "dressage is just jerking them around for ribbons" mentality because I've done and shown dressage and plan on picking lessons up again this summer, but I'm wise enough to know that MY horse doesn't wanna do it so I'm not forcing him and I feel like this post was taken as me still forcing him to do dressag, whereas I thought it would be implied that I was doing the sensible thing.


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## equestriem (Apr 1, 2018)

LoriF said:


> That would be really annoying.
> 
> Sounds to me like he thinks it's funny. Play back, grab that tail and don't let it go. Maybe he will stop if he doesn't like his tail being held onto.


He might think it's funny, he thinks lots of things are funny 😂 he's a grab your the hood of your sweatshirt, pick up the end of the lead and smack himself with it, enjoys drinking other people's coffee kind of horse. 

It was suggested to me (as a joke) to put a tail bag on him and drop a small rock inside, but I definitely don't wanna get thwacked with a rock.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

equestriem said:


> He might think it's funny, he thinks lots of things are funny 😂 he's a grab your the hood of your sweatshirt, pick up the end of the lead and smack himself with it, enjoys drinking other people's coffee kind of horse.
> 
> It was suggested to me (as a joke) to put a tail bag on him and drop a small rock inside, but I definitely don't wanna get thwacked with a rock.


Ha ha, I was thinking the same thing or tie a knot in his tail and then thought "What if his tail is strong enough to whack you with it".


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

Does he do this if he is just cantering out in the field by himself?

Have you tried lunging him, no saddle and does he do it then? If not put a saddle on him and see if he does it with the saddle. Just some suggestions to see if you can pin it down to one particular movement.

If he were mine I would do a lot of trail riding with him, as I see you are doing, but no cantering for a while, just some good forward trotting for long periods of time and see if you can get him to get out of the habit of the tail flick.
Good luck, lots of suggestions here to think about.

If he is a western trail horse now, I'm assuming that a western saddle is the wonderful new one you got. And from what you said he did this also with dressage saddles, have you tried just riding him bareback to see if there is a difference? just thinking of all the things I can to narrow down the problem.


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

It might be very enlightening for the topic to see him actually do it. Maybe you have a video of him being ridden that you'd like to share?  It is possible that it might tell the posters here the answer to why exactly he's swishing his tail like that.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Can you get a video of you riding him and him doing the tail swishing thing? That might give us a clue as to what/why/when/where he's doing it. Arabs are known for their expressive tails, so it may just be a thing with him.


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## equestriem (Apr 1, 2018)

Saranda said:


> It might be very enlightening for the topic to see him actually do it. Maybe you have a video of him being ridden that you'd like to share?  It is possible that it might tell the posters here the answer to why exactly he's swishing his tail like that.


I've thought of that but my phone takes terrible videos so I fear that once it was posted it would be nearly unwatchable :/


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

If you are showing, you can get a weighted fake tail to discourage swishing.


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

Not all breeds or disciplines allow those fake things. Besides, if he is really good with that tail, he could make it look like a hula shirt. : )


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Golden Horse said:


> While I agree that variety is great for most horses, there is always the exception to the rule, some prefer the arena.
> 
> Same as Dressage being about shoving a double bit in their mouth and yanking them around is hopefully an exception.....of course there are abusive riders in all areas, but there is nothing in Dressage about jerking a horse around......far far from it. Your implication here is this is what the Op is doing, when in fact we know nothing about her style of riding, and if this is due to previous or present rider error.


Well, you don't see those riders who ride their horses *appropriately* for their personality complain about "behavioral issues", such as expressing frustration, anxiety, boredom, or sourness, do you?


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

LoriF said:


> @Golden Horse I don't think that @mmshiro was implying that the poster does that to the horse and/or that dressage riders do that. I think he was merely saying that's what happened to a mare in the past that he rode and she did this. At least, that is how I read it anyway.


Actually, it's the third horse that I rode who came with horrible mental scars from a dressage environment. The first one was Gershwin, a German Warmblood who got beaten with PVC pipes because he didn't pick his feet up high enough, so I got to ride him in the arena to teach him that the equipment and the environment won't hurt him anymore.

The second one was the TB mare I spoke of.

The third one I'll be riding tomorrow, a Percheron whose owner tried to turn him into a dressage horse and, upon non-compliance, got beaten and whipped by the trainer she hired - to the point that he would not leave the barn anymore, so she brought him to my BO's barn about two weeks ago.

I now happen to ride at two barns that takes in horses from an abusive show environment, and when I hear about a show horse with "behavioral issues", "abuse" is the first thing I'll think of. Because, as I said elsewhere, content horses act contently, and their owners don't ask for advice about "behavioral issues" that are most likely expressions of fear, anxiety, or frustration.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Saranda said:


> It might be very enlightening for the topic to see him actually do it. Maybe you have a video of him being ridden that you'd like to share?  It is possible that it might tell the posters here the answer to why exactly he's swishing his tail like that.


At the very least you might get a viral video silly animal meme out of it. 

Maybe tie balloons to his tail . . .

I'm full of good ideas.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

mmshiro said:


> Actually, it's the third horse that I rode who came with horrible mental scars from a dressage environment. The first one was Gershwin, a German Warmblood who got beaten with PVC pipes because he didn't pick his feet up high enough, so I got to ride him in the arena to teach him that the equipment and the environment won't hurt him anymore.
> 
> The second one was the TB mare I spoke of.
> 
> ...


Got to say it doesn't sound like any of the above have a direct connection to dressage, just to how nasty people are when they don't get what they want.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

It *could* be a learned behavioral thing. Or it just could be him. 

For example I know of barrel horses with great owners (meaning they have been vetted and checked out and taken care of) that are just tail swishers. They love their job, they’re not in pain ... but they swish or wring their tail. 

Sometimes it’s just the personality of the horse. 

I guess if you’ve taken the proper steps to make sure the horse is comfortable (which sounds like you have), I wouldn’t worry too much about it.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

A lot of people were just sure that this horse couldn't just be swishing her tail out of personal habit, . . that it HAD to be pain related. 

I see a horse reallly engaged in what she's doing, not one in pain, but then maybe I am seeing what I want to see . .


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## equestriem (Apr 1, 2018)

mmshiro said:


> Actually, it's the third horse that I rode who came with horrible mental scars from a dressage environment. The first one was Gershwin, a German Warmblood who got beaten with PVC pipes because he didn't pick his feet up high enough, so I got to ride him in the arena to teach him that the equipment and the environment won't hurt him anymore.
> 
> The second one was the TB mare I spoke of.
> 
> ...


I can understand your point of view and I worked with many abused ex show horses myself, but this is a young horse who I've known for a while and I know where he came from and who was riding him before and he has never been abused a day in his life. I appreciate your concern but I do not appreciate how you in the nicest way possible said that if the horse has an issue, it's obviously because I'm an abusive rider. Please spend a few sessions with me and my horse before you make an assumption like that.


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## equestriem (Apr 1, 2018)

Avna said:


> Got to say it doesn't sound like any of the above have a direct connection to dressage, just to how nasty people are when they don't get what they want.


Yes, exactly. I have seen very good horseman in all disciplines. I have seen horses beaten and abused in all disciplines. The sport has nothing to do with the abuse an owner or a trainer dishes out personally.


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## equestriem (Apr 1, 2018)

mmshiro said:


> Well, you don't see those riders who ride their horses *appropriately* for their personality complain about "behavioral issues", such as expressing frustration, anxiety, boredom, or sourness, do you?


So obviously by default I MUST be abusing my horse otherwise he'd be perfect all the time?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

equestriem said:


> So obviously by default I MUST be abusing my horse otherwise he'd be perfect all the time?


I didn't read @mmshiro's comment as a personal judgement on you and your horse.

I think you are putting 2 and 2 together and getting 10. I don't think mmshiro was saying this about YOUR horse , personally, but what his experience , and he admits to not being a professional and having limited experience, has taught him. 

I really did not hear an accusation of abuse at all.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

A question for you. 

If you try to lift his tail like when you put a tail bandage on it, does he clamp his tail down?


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

equestriem said:


> So obviously by default I MUST be abusing my horse otherwise he'd be perfect all the time?


So obviously there must be *a defect in the horse* that needs to be fixed, because if asking a question and motivating my asking the question with actual experience hurts your feelings, then it must have been the wrong question to ask. 

I asked you for conditions that put show horses under stress, and that cause "behavioral problems" (that don't occur when I ride them, because my task is to keep them relaxed and to show them that riding won't hurt them). Instead of answering the question in a way that lets the audience eliminate that as a possibility, you get defensive about it and evade it. So, does he or does he not live in a box, and is dressage drills and dressage shows the only thing he ever gets to do outside that box or not? 

I tell you what else raised a flag immediately: "The owners want *perfect scores*." rather than, "The owners want a *content horse*."

Anyway, it's neither here nor there. What I say has no impact on what you do, and what you do with your horse has no impact on my enjoyment of mine. Consider it, accept it or reject that as a cause, but don't get all defensive as though it's something so outlandish so as to be preposterous to even float as a possibility.


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

I too am in the camp of - it sounds like a habit or maybe a horse that does not like the feel of his own tail between his legs when he is cantering. My TWH always put her tail up and to the left when we are gaiting. My daughter thinks it is the ugliest thing in the world because you can see the underside of her tail and her "back bits" but she does it as soon as I ask for a gait - and she does it out in the field as well. Sometime the tail is completely upside down on her rump and others it is just kind of sticking out to the left - habit for her and we just trail ride so I am not too concerned about looks.

Could be just the sensation of the hair between his legs he does not like.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

If you've had him thoroughly checked over - which you have - and you're satisfied that you've covered all of the pain potentials, including a rectal ultrasound to take a deeper look at the sacroiliac.
You could treat for ulcers which can be aggravated by faster work - such as cantering/loping. It causes the acid to splash up against the unprotected area so could trigger a pain reaction like tail swishing. To avoid it always give a small high fibre feed before riding.
If you've rules out everything else that could be physical then I'd be tempted to just opt to live with the tail swishing. 
With some horses that are on the 'hot side' its often just a sign of frustration when they're using all their self control to not have a buck or try to go faster than they should. They're not machines after all and as long as they're otherwise doing the right thing you have to allow them to express themselves a little bit.
I've got a horse that's very ticklish to be groomed that would secretly like to nip or kick but restricts herself to some tail swishing. Its a fair compromise IMO.


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## TaMMa89 (Apr 12, 2008)

Ok, there are obviously some angry feelings & comments in the air and the Mod Team has noticed that, so closed for a while till we've estimated the situation.

Please stay tuned. We try to reopen this thread as soon as possible.

*EDIT: 4 - 6 - 2018: The thread has been reopened. Please remember our Conscientious Etiquette Policy and Rules while posting. Constructive critique and feedback is ok, but personal-going comments aren't.*


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