# Horse colour restriction - Why not allowed?



## daroczy (Feb 14, 2008)

Hi to everybody,
I'm a horse owner and breeder from Hungary, Europe, and I would like to ask you a question. Why is that if I have a palomino, buckskin or other single dilute mare I cannot breed it to any cremello stallion? I meant why is that all double dilute stallions have the notice "he will produce 100% guaranteed buckskin, palomino or smokey black with bay, chesnut or black mares, but semen is not available for palomino, buckskin or smokey black mares"? In Hungary there are only a few cremello stallions, and not with a very high quality, that's why we would like to import semen for our single dilutes – but they are not available. Is it only some kind of jealiousity (the breeder does not want anyone else to have a double dilute)?
I would be please if any of you answered my question, forgive me for my bad English. Thank you


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## Sara (Jul 6, 2007)

I have no idea, but its an interesting question and I'm looking forward to the answer


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## AKPaintLover (May 26, 2007)

I never knew that! I would also be interested in the answer. Sorry I am of no help.


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## Kyani (Apr 30, 2007)

Sounds like jealousy to me! I can't think of any other reason.


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## appylover31803 (Sep 18, 2007)

I've also noticed that other studs, can only be bred to a specific breed and specific colors too. I don't understand it. I believe it was a national show horse that could only be bred to other NSH that were bay. Or something like that.

Daroczy, what if you e-mailed the people with the stud and asked them? I'm thinking that would be a way to know.


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## daroczy (Feb 14, 2008)

I've tried to e-mail any of them, and ask the question but they did not answered. Of course I did not ask "Are you so jealious of your cermello"  but no one of them wrote me back.
First I tought that the reason might be some kind of inheritable disease which can appear in double dilutes, but many breeders breed ceremellos and palominos or rother single dilutes with each other, even cremello×cremello, and they have healthy foals. Of course they breed only with their own single or double diluted mares...
Answering to your question about crossing bay with bay, I see no idea. Of course there are some heritable genetic disease among some type of colours, like white foal syndrome or lethal white syndrome. And there are other facts that appaloosa and paint coloured horses are more sensitive to sun, they may have more often malignant skin tumor in old age than bays, chesnut or other solid colours. But I never heard that two bays might not be crossed.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

I could be completely off base, but for some reason I think this might be slightly correct:

I believe that there is a lethal dilute gene... that is, some dilute colored horses (seen in smokey-********, cremellos and palominos) carry the lethal gene - they will carry one normal gene and one lethal gene, so they themselves won't be affected but will carry the lethal gene. Horses with the lethal gene die well before reproductive age, so cannot reproduce. 

Say X (capital X) =normal gene, and x (lowercase x)= lethal gene... dilute horses are either homozygous normal (XX) or heterozygous normal/lethal (Xx). 

If two homozygous normal (XX) horses are bred together, there is a 100% chance the foal will be heterozygous normal as well, so it will not carry the lethal gene. 

If a homozygous normal (XX) is bred with a heterozygous normal/lethal (Xx), there is a 50% chance the horse will be homozygous normal (XX), and a 50% chance the foal will be a carrier, that is a heterozugous normal/lethal foal(Xx). The foal has a 0% chance of having homozygous lethal gene (xx)

If two heterozygous horses are bred together (Xx), the foal has a 25% chance of being homozygous normal (XX), 50% chance of being a carrier (heterozygous normal/lethal, Xx), and 25% chance of being a homozygous lethal (xx) and will die. 

Whew! Alright well that confirms it, I miss doing genetics in school!!

I could be completely wrong with this, but I think it's at least a little right?

EDIT:

It's part of the whole Lethal White Syndrome (LWS).. more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lethal_white_syndrome

EDIT II:

umm.. nevemind? Here's an excerpt, stating that cremellos, palominos and smoky-******** are not affected by LWS.. at least, that's how I read it?

"Healthy horses which appear to be entirely or mostly white are usually either cremellos, perlinos, smoky creams, ivory champagne, maximally-expressed sabinos, or the rarer white horse. None of these color genes are linked to the LWS gene."



GAH I don't know anymore. My Punnett Square stuff still stands, maybe it's right. I'm very curoious to hear the answer now!!


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## Supermane (Sep 23, 2007)

Nope, dilutes aren't connected with LWS. My first pony was a cremello gelding so my mother and I did a lot of research.

I can't really think of any reason...


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## daroczy (Feb 14, 2008)

True, LWS may happen to only the dominant white coloured horses. There is a W dominant gene which causes the horse to be white - but never palomino, smokey or buckskin. This gene overwrites ALL other colour genes in heterozygous format, even the grey also. But in homozygous format it's lethal. Foals abort within the uterus,or born dead. So:
Ww - white horse
ww - any other coloured horse
WW - no horse

Other lethal syndrome is the "white foal syndrome", the foal dies 2-3 days after being born, that's because her gut or intestine has a dead end and they cannot digest and defecate. And before dyying, they suffer a lot with colica, so it's a horrible, terrible thing to have a white foal syndrome...  I don't know exactly, but it's connected with some special paint colour, maybe tobiano, but I don't want to say foolish...

Besides all, I thank you all your replies and still waiting for answers...


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## daroczy (Feb 14, 2008)

Dear Supermane, what do you think about it: we had have also a cremello pony with blue eyes, she had fully pink colour, but around her eyes there was a black line, just like she was eyelined - like on egyptian wallpaintings. And she was born from two grey Welsh D-s. Was your pony like this?


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## Supermane (Sep 23, 2007)

Nope, mine had no dark pigment.
I found a picture of a horse that looks similar to my old guy, here:









I've never seen a cremello with darker pigment around the eyes, but I'm sure it's possible.


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## daroczy (Feb 14, 2008)

He might be very pretty. I've found a photo about our pony too, she turns over her head but the eyeline is still visible.


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## MistyAcres (Feb 29, 2008)

You would be surprised to learn that a majority of people do not like double dilutes. They do not do well in the show ring and any good breeder is breeding his stud for show quality prospects so that the stud fee can be increased and they make money. 

Three years ago, I bred my Buckskin mare to a Perlino stud. We got a Cremello stud colt. It was very difficult to sell my colt because he was a double dilute. I ended up selling him for nothing to a family that wanted him for breeding purposes. 

There are a few in the States that don't care about the color of the mare. Not sure if they ship oversees.


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## daroczy (Feb 14, 2008)

It's interesting you said that ceremllos are not so popular. Since we last met on the forum, I've got two replys from breeders who don't allow diluted mares to be bred with their diluted stallions and they answered very sincerely that they don't want any competition on their business. 

We breed for sport, especially for showjumping. There are two diluted lines in Hungary, both stallions are about 20 years old, and former breeders did not take care of maintaining the dilution rate among the foals, grandsons and granddaughters, so many of their offsprings are not diluted. But they have good sport peformance.

What kind of coloureds do you breed? TWH or other show horses?


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## carriedenaee (Apr 17, 2008)

how do you get the lethal white gene, is that why???


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## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

carriedenaee said:


> how do you get the lethal white gene, is that why???


Overo Lethal White comes when you breed two Frame Overo horses that are carriers together. You have a 25% chance of having a lethal foal. It comes out all white and dies within 48 hours of birth. A seemingly solid colored horse with Overo in its background CAN carry the OLWS gene. That is why is it very important to have all paints and QH (QH who trace to known frame lines) tested for lethal white. It's an easy and relatively inexpensive test. 

http://www.petdnaservicesaz.com/Equine.html
http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/horse.php


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## irisheyes12 (May 19, 2008)

appylover31803 said:


> I've also noticed that other studs, can only be bred to a specific breed and specific colors too. I don't understand it. I believe it was a national show horse that could only be bred to other NSH that were bay. Or something like that.
> 
> Daroczy, what if you e-mailed the people with the stud and asked them? I'm thinking that would be a way to know.


Many stallion owners will only breed to better their specific breed. EX. many AQHA stallions will breed to AQHA or APHA mares only. I agree with it, personally.


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## irisheyes12 (May 19, 2008)

This stallion is an excellent example of the AQHA breed in the color of your choice and they say nothing about what color mares they will only breed to. I would think you would have a harder time finding someone willing to ship AI overseas.

http://www.lattefarms.com/


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

I would assume the color is due to not wanting competition. As long as their cremello color stays rare, they will get more customers going to them who wants a gauranteed palomino or buckskin.

Not breeding to other breeds - that is because they don't want to produce grades. In many breeds it is frowned upon to create crosses and grades because they are typically seen as a lower-value horse than a purebred registered horse.


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## irisheyes12 (May 19, 2008)

Cat said:


> Not breeding to other breeds - that is because they don't want to produce grades. In many breeds it is frowned upon to create crosses and grades because they are typically seen as a lower-value horse than a purebred registered horse.


Exactley! That's what I was saying.


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## Velvetgrace (Aug 17, 2008)

Have you thought about using a perlino?

The horse pictured is listed as a perlino. AQHA name: Two Eyed Snowbuck. He is located in McGregor, TX 

He is a 3/4 brother to my buckskin mare, out of the same sire.


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## mare (Oct 4, 2008)

Skips Misty Cloud

This is the stud my colt is out of. I dont know what you are planing on doing with the foal so maybe he wont work in your program.


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## Royal Freckles (Oct 7, 2008)

I have studied lethal white foal in paints being as I own a paint mare, and have also encountered Lethal White Foal Syndrome. LWFS comes from the crossing of two overos, it is not exclusive to frame overos. Overo is a recessive gene, and when you cross two overos you run the risk of havig a foal with LWFS. It got the name Lethal White Foal because the foals are actually born with very little to no color, or white. They are born without the ability to digest, therefore they literally starve to death if not put down. 

You can cross two tobianos, a tobiano and an overo, or an overo with a non-paint horse and you will be fine.


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## Gingerrrrr (Feb 12, 2008)

Velvetgrace said:


> Have you thought about using a perlino?
> 
> The horse pictured is listed as a perlino. AQHA name: Two Eyed Snowbuck. He is located in McGregor, TX
> 
> He is a 3/4 brother to my buckskin mare, out of the same sire.





> Skips Misty Cloud
> 
> This is the stud my colt is out of. I dont know what you are planing on doing with the foal so maybe he wont work in your program.


these two studs look like the same horse...?


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## Royal Freckles (Oct 7, 2008)

Cloud seems to have a whiter mane and tail than the other horse. And their manes lay on different sides. To be a cremello, they are so light, do many of them look all that different?:? I have not seen that many so....I dont know


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Only breeding to a certain breed makes sense, colour not so much...
I know a few breeders who have standard colour horses (Bay, Brown, Grey, etc) who will not breed to any coloured horses because they thing that judges are predjuidce against them in the show ring and only want to turn out top quality foals. I agree with only turning out top-quality foals, but that seems a bit odd to me. I hope you find a good answer, I dont know too much about cremellos and breeding them or about LWS .. I suck.


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

I have no idea what breed type you are looking for, but I did some checking and found a couple of QHs that I liked Both ship semen.

Palomino, Dun and Buckskin Producer

DOCS WHITE HOT GUN AQHA Cremello Quarter Horse Stallion FOR SALE standing stud Texas


and I found a neat little calculator to play with (yes, I'm easily entertained):
Color Calculator

At any rate - Good luck!


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## xkatex (Oct 7, 2007)

Horse Testing - Equine Genetic Testing

Here is a site that may be of some help?


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## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

I don't have an answer either. A old friend of mine who now competes in the states, had a Palomino (full warmblood) who should have been registered but because of his color, she wasn't even allowed to register him (he wasn't a stud either). For some reason it's to be an impurity and they want to keep those horses out of the registry??


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## ColourFan (Nov 6, 2008)

One other reason for not breeding double-dilute to single-dilute is also the fact that they may be allowing or providing future competition with respect to horse breeding.
If you breed, for example, a WB palomino mare to a WB cremello stud you will either get a palomino or a cremello warmblood foal and if it is a colt it will be direct competition for its sire in the future.

As mentioned at the very beginning of this topic quality cremello warmblood studs are very difficult to find and even more so if you want them fully approved and not just 'listed' or 'licensed' with an approved Register or Studbook.
If memory serves me there are actually only 4 fully WB registered and approved Book I cremello's, 2 WB reg + approved Book II, 2 WB reg + approved in Book I Colour Registers, 1 WB reg + approved in Book I Sport Register. Then you have the so-called 'graded', 'listed' and 'licensed' stallions.


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## Kentucky (Aug 2, 2008)

In earlier American Quarter Horse Association days, colored horses were not allowed becuase of pintos. Pintos were common ranch and indain ponies and seen as inferior to the then new AQHA and the breeders didn't want to dilute their bloodlines with these animals. Some breeders didn't agree with that and started the APHA so the could have an association.


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## ColourFan (Nov 6, 2008)

What type of stud are you looking for? I know of at least 11 cremello's or perlino's in the Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, England and France that will breed to single-dilutes. Only problem is that mostly the owners will raise the studfee or have a private treaty (with possible options on purchasing foal).
Most of them are either warmbloods, partbred wb, partbred arab, quarab, berber!, iberian/PRE/Lusitano/Andulsian (or crosses thereof).
Let me know what you are looking for with respect to type and bloodlines and I'll do some research.


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

My friesian sporthorse colt is by a cremello stud, who's by blonder hans... They may ship overseas. Here's his link if interested... he's had some nice babies on the ground this year. 

Equivale - Blue Eyed Dream, rare Greman Warmblood Cremello Stallion


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## outtopasture (Dec 13, 2008)

Wasn't it not so long ago that cremellos/perlinos were not registerable with the AQHA? Or am I confused with the "too much white rule" being repealed? In this case of not shipping to certain colored mares I think it is a competition thing.


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