# Bits whips and spurs



## flywithoutwings (Jun 29, 2008)

I believe that as long as you are well educated any bit with a mouth piece wider than a pinky (no wire!) and with no sharp parts is fine. For english, I hate shanks longer than two inches for jumping. Blunt spurs are alright when used wisely (i.e. rarely). Whips, however, I have a problem with. Taps are alright, but if you have to smack your horse, that is an issue of disrespect that you are just worsening but hurting them. What are your views?


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## horsey*kisses (May 12, 2008)

i dont use whips or spurs on my horse, he bucks with spurs and whips...lol...i dont need them a simple 'c'mon lets go' will get the job done heehee


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## Curly_Horse_CMT (Jun 8, 2008)

I think that the most important part of a bridle, rather then the bit would be the hands holding it. Any bit can be severe; it is just the person using it. As for spurs, they are a training aid. Like anything, it can be turned into a harsh thing if used improperly or for the wrong reason. Whips or popppers are for the same thing. There is nothing wrong with a short, snap or pop on a horses butt or shoulder to get them out of your space. That doesnt mean you hur them before they hurt you. They need to respect your space, and that means getting their shoulders and butt OUT of your space! lol They have alot of power, and we need to respect that also. But I dont think that short, sharp smacks are bad. Horses are big, they can take it. Look at what they do to each other in the wild and the pasture! 8)


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## Abby (Nov 26, 2007)

I prefer bits with smooth mouth pieces, and some sort of snaffle or low leverage (5" Shanks or less) curb with either a Mullen mouth or nice low port.

I do not like the combination of a broken mouth piece, and shanks unless the mouth pieces is double jointed like a French link or has an oval center. I also like the roller middle, like Billy Allen style mouth piece.

I do not believe in striking a horse with a whip, ever, as a form of discipline, but I do believe in giving him/her a quick immediate, and I'm using this term loosely, slap for aggressive behavior biting, threating to kick, charging. if my horse bites me, I'm not going to chase after his nose or say "hey!" and then give him a slap, and again, I'm using this term loosely, I will have already done so, and if I don't realize soon enough, I don't do anything about it, because he won't learn that way, he will only be afraid of me. By this I mean, the instant I realize or the instant the mishap happens, my punishment has already been served and I'm continuing on whatever I was doing previously. 

I don't believe in kicking my horse, ever. Not even while riding, I will never kick or thump my horses sides with my legs. I squeeze with my thighs, then my knees, then my calves, then my ankles then start clucking. I never need more than that, I hardly even half to get to my knees most of the time.


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## TurnNBurn17 (Jun 26, 2008)

i barrel race and i use on my green horse a correction bit, spurs and i have a quirt that i smack with off the 3rd barrel


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

I don't use spurs, once in awhile I'll use the crop. Just like a light tap, nothing major.


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## Dumas'_Grrrl (Apr 2, 2008)

I think that bits, whips and spurs are all just fine. They are tools for a purpose. A hammer is a tool also. I wouldn't give some one a hammer that didn't know how to use it and I wouldn't give some one a whip that didn't know how to use it either.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Dumas'_Grrrl said:


> I think that bits, whips and spurs are all just fine. They are tools for a purpose. A hammer is a tool also. I wouldn't give some one a hammer that didn't know how to use it and I wouldn't give some one a whip that didn't know how to use it either.


Brilliantly said.
All of these pieces of equipment are only as "bad" as the hands (or feet...) using them. On the flip side, they are only as _good_ as the hands using them.


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## buckaroo2010 (Nov 7, 2007)

I use a curb bit that has shanks on them that are about 4 inches and I dont have a problem with them and I also so spurs too. I cant get my horse to listen to me with out them he needs that extra bounce to get him to go cause he is very lazy for a 3 year old. Whips on the other hang I don't use one unless I absoulely have too I don;t like useing them but sometimes they are needed


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## flywithoutwings (Jun 29, 2008)

thanks all for the interesting replies. I want to clarify that I wasn't really talking about western riding because they hold the reins differently and thus are allowed to have longer shanks and stuff like that. I, however, hate the sharp, thin, high ported bits that you sometimes see. As for spurs, I know you would get laughed at in the western world but blunt stubs are so much more humane than thin rowels and other implements. 

I agree with the people who say a 'spanking' (seriously, no harder than you would hit your kid - sure, they are big 'n tough but that just makes disrespect a more dangerous issue, and pain=disrespect). However it has become the practice around my area to hit a horse pretty **** hard if he does something wrong under saddle. Not cool, man, not cool.
As for on the ground, in the barn, I hate when people use a crop to hit a horse who paws or to reprimand an attempted bite or kick- look at the whip like a set of claws or sharp canines, a defense weapon. Now think about pitting a wild cat against your horse... while he is tied up in the barn... how is that fair? Trust me, that horse isn't going to welcome that cat aboard. 
I think an open handed smack is appropriate for a bite or kick. It's fine even if it stings them a bit. On the ground, you are equals (except that he is tied up, but if he is kicking and biting during gentle things, it isn't the tying up thats the problem- it's respect. And besides, he certainly wins the muscle comparison, so it balances out), and his other equals would have no qualms about striking out to keep him in check.


For the people who say they are all just dandy little tools, tools that are meant to intensify pressure on sensitive areas, are you okay with that? I mean, I do not get the hammer reference, that piece of wood couldn't care less how clumsy it's carpenter is, a horse isn't a piece of wood though. Is it your opinion that a skilled rider should use these tools?
I think that, if you are skilled, the evidence of that lies in that you don't need those tools.


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## Harlee rides horses (Jan 13, 2008)

I use a bit and spurs on my horse. I don't use whips because in western pleasure you don't use a whip. I think if you know what you're doing with any of these aides, then you shouldn't be questioned. Also, some people have to use whips because their horse responds negatively to spurs.


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## *ArabianPrincess* (Nov 8, 2006)

I use a bit.

I've never used spurs, I used to use a whip but i weaned myself and my horse from it not that long ago. He used to be really lazy but i used the whip to teach him to work more forward and now he's more forward without the whip..


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## Brandon (Jan 17, 2008)

Well here is my opinon. I believe that spurs should only be used as a very last resort. I think ALOT of people mis-use spurs and cause horses much harm! I have personally have never used spurs and i don't plan on it. 

I also believe shanks longer than 4 inches are abit wrong. i mean i know it gives the rider more leverage and such, but i mean thats like takin the easy way out of a trainor error. 

Whips in my opinion are good until they aren't. To many people use the whip as a weapon against the horse and not as a mere extension of the hand used to correct the horse without usin alot of force. A tap is fine, but when it becomes a thrashin against the horse, then that is wrong.

Thanks,
Brandon


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## delorey1 (Jun 26, 2008)

we are certainly very new at this but when we were looking at trainers to train my dd and her horse one of trainers said something about spurs and that his were wired?? to his boot and that he did use spurs, I don't remeber even how it came up, but my 8 yr old dd pulled me to the side, which I caught a glance at her while he was talking about it and thought instantly uh oh... She pulled me to the side and I sat down to see what she wanted and she said that man is not getting on my horse with spurs on, and promise me mommie no one will ride her with spurs on, so that right then became our philosophy... If she can't get it without spurs, she just won't get it at all... No spurs. I have never liked spurs either, I remeber as a young child hanging out at the arenas seeing horses coming out from competing and be bleeding on their sides where spurs were used and I just felt like hitting the man that did that... so no spurs for her. I do not like the whips either, no idea how she feels on that yet and I don't know enough about bits yet to give my two cents worth on that, but I do know that my mom started the horse with no bit, she used oh shoot what is that called the thing that goes over their nose... Anyway, so I put my 2 cents in on how we feel about spurs right now, don't think it will change... will have to wait and see how my dd's ideas develope.


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## Brandon (Jan 17, 2008)

did your mom use a hackamore? sorry i am just takin a wild shot at what you may be tryin to think of.


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## sandsarita (Jan 20, 2008)

Spurs can actually be more humane than riding some horses without them. Think about it - which is a "nicer" way to ask a horse to do something? A little bit of pressure applied with the spur to a small area, giving a very deliberate cue, or the same rider on the same horse having to smack it with their leg to get it to move off of it. Personally, all of my all-around horses (show western and english) are taught a spur stop. It allows me to have instant control without using the reins, and with no visible cue. If I'm on a horse that doesn't have a spur stop, I'll still use them - but I know I have the ability to keep them off of the horses side under all circumstances, unless they are needed. And if they are needed, I prefer to have them than to kick.


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

If you only ride one horse, or a handful, then I'm sure spurs and crops look evil and cruel, because your horses don't need them, so why should anyone else's?
But horses are all different. If a 1,500 pound animal is trying to kick or bite me, and if I have a little dressage whip, I am going to smack him with it (not in the face). And it is going to hurt. You know why? Because that is the most _natural thing that the horse understands_. If he was out in the pasture and he bit his mom, you know what she would do? Kick his butt!! So to keep me safe and all others that around around my horses, they are taught not to bite, or kick. And they don't love me any less because I popped them with a whip, because I don't /beat/ them. I deliver it immediately, only once, and I forget that it happened. I don't want my horses 'testing' every new person they see because they think that people are horses. We're not.
Some horses need spurs and whips. Sometimes they are training aids, sometimes they refine a cue. That's are what spurs are intended for--an extension of your leg, so that you can give your horse a more refined cue. Why, in any way, is that bad? Just because people think it is cruel? Just because people think it is used to make a horse go forward? It's not supposed to be used that way.
Whips are used for forward motion. I ride a paint that is somewhat lazy, and his conformation makes him naturally heavy in the front. I use the whip to encourage forward motion. I don't beat him with it, lol! I just tap him to encourage it, so I am not always nagging him with my legs. But--oh, that's right, that's 'cruel' and people shouldn't need things like that!
I'm sorry, it just makes me angry when people give tools a bad rep, when really they just do not understand how or why they are used.


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## jeddah31 (Jun 11, 2008)

I think, that to buy a horse, you must first have to pass a no less than 5 week certificate in learning the basics, health and safety handling of horses. Including excessive use of bits, spurs and whips. 
When used correctly they cause no harm, and a lot of riders are unaware of the affects they can cause, and the sensitivity of the horse. 
I believe that use of these items should require some form of license to prove your knowledge in understanding the effects and that a fine can be used against anyone without a license, all of which should cost $5. If you have a license and are found carrying out excessive use, your license, whips spurs etc will be taken and you will be charged for animal cruelty. Every sale of spurs and whips should be required for the license to be presented. 
I think giving children, younger that 12, spurs or whips is rediculous, unless of a high level of experience or under supervision


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## thunderboomer (Jun 20, 2008)

i always carry a whip with one of my horses just holding in the inside hand helps him from diving off the rail. Sometimes just bringing your whip foreward and letting them catch a glimps of it is good enough to get there attention.


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## claireauriga (Jun 24, 2008)

I always carry a crop when riding, but that's because I suck at giving leg aids right now and still struggle to keep my balance when I do that in trot/canter. I use the crop to give a tap to the shoulder to say, "Pay attention to me," and on the hindquarters in place of a squeeze of my legs to ask them to go faster/maintain their speed. It doesn't hurt - I'm weak so I'm always being told to hit harder or he'll think it's a fly xD - and it will help me until I'm good enough to give correct aids with my legs. I can't see how use of a crop is cruel ...

EDIT: But I guess that's much more about riding than training ... still, aids with a crop seems quite sensible to me.


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## Sissimut-icehestar (Jan 20, 2008)

i always ride with a crop ! i think somepeople dont really get what it is ! i have atleast always been taught that its an extension of your body ! i use a crop to give aids at places i can´t reach with my limbs, such as a the shoulder and further back than my legs can go ! by no means should you ever use it with more force than with your own limbs and that forse shouldn´t be much ! 

:wink:


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## TurnNBurn17 (Jun 26, 2008)

Dumas'_Grrrl said:


> I think that bits, whips and spurs are all just fine. They are tools for a purpose. A hammer is a tool also. I wouldn't give some one a hammer that didn't know how to use it and I wouldn't give some one a whip that didn't know how to use it either.


that is an EXCELLENT way of putting it!


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## FriesianSH (May 28, 2008)

Dumas'_Grrrl said:


> I think that bits, whips and spurs are all just fine. They are tools for a purpose. A hammer is a tool also. I wouldn't give some one a hammer that didn't know how to use it and I wouldn't give some one a whip that didn't know how to use it either.


Well said!


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## kickshaw (May 7, 2008)

> I think that bits, whips and spurs are all just fine. They are tools for a purpose. A hammer is a tool also. I wouldn't give some one a hammer that didn't know how to use it and I wouldn't give some one a whip that didn't know how to use it either.


Here here!! Excellent way of putting it!


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## Kirsti Arndt (Jun 23, 2008)

i carry a popper when riding outside-i use it to rub flies off Sonnys flanks and rear end hehehe ya i look very professional !! but he appreciates the assist. i have never used spurs-dont intend to either, but i agree with part of the tools statement-even a set of reins in bad hands can be a weapon. spurs just dont fit into my style.


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## Angel_Leaguer (Jun 13, 2008)

I think it is more harmful to let a horse get away with stuff instead of just giving him a light tap or kick with training aids. I ride with blunt spurs and I properly them when i need to.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

My horse is "spur broke". I actually use my seat and my spurs as a cue to slow him down. Preasure from my spurs means stop or slow down. The spurs have rollers on them and they aren't mean. It is actually a very subtle cue. Right now I'm using a snaffle because he's young but as he gets older, I'll use a port bit that alot of hunt people would scream "harsh" but the fact of the matter is, the bit and the aids are only as harsh as the rider using them. If you watch the higher level dressage events you'll notice that those riders use seat and spurs as well, they also have "harsher" bits and that is because they actually have VERY gentle hands and excellent deep seats.

Alot of hunt riders are huge on rubber bits and "soft" bits... OK, that would be fine and dandy if they knew how to use their seats to control the horse but they don't so they are riding around the ring in these gentle bits cranking their reigns as hard as they can to control these horses because they are not collected or underneath themselves. Now I'm definitely not saying EVERY hunt rider and my post isnt' aimed at anyone at all. I'm just using examples. I believe that in lesson programs the bit should be as gentle as possible because alot of beginner riders lug on the horses for steering and control. But as riders abilities increase, the tack changes to suit their abilities... That's all I'm saying.


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

Well said, farm pony.


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## flywithoutwings (Jun 29, 2008)

mayfieldk said:


> If you only ride one horse, or a handful, then I'm sure spurs and crops look evil and cruel, because your horses don't need them, so why should anyone else's?
> But horses are all different. If a 1,500 pound animal is trying to kick or bite me, and if I have a little dressage whip, I am going to smack him with it (not in the face). And it is going to hurt. You know why? Because that is the most _natural thing that the horse understands_. If he was out in the pasture and he bit his mom, you know what she would do? Kick his butt!! So to keep me safe and all others that around around my horses, they are taught not to bite, or kick. And they don't love me any less because I popped them with a whip, because I don't /beat/ them. I deliver it immediately, only once, and I forget that it happened. I don't want my horses 'testing' every new person they see because they think that people are horses. We're not.
> Some horses need spurs and whips. Sometimes they are training aids, sometimes they refine a cue. That's are what spurs are intended for--an extension of your leg, so that you can give your horse a more refined cue. Why, in any way, is that bad? Just because people think it is cruel? Just because people think it is used to make a horse go forward? It's not supposed to be used that way.
> Whips are used for forward motion. I ride a paint that is somewhat lazy, and his conformation makes him naturally heavy in the front. I use the whip to encourage forward motion. I don't beat him with it, lol! I just tap him to encourage it, so I am not always nagging him with my legs. But--oh, that's right, that's 'cruel' and people shouldn't need things like that!
> I'm sorry, it just makes me angry when people give tools a bad rep, when really they just do not understand how or why they are used.


okay, wow, cool off a bit. I didn't mean to upset you. Fact of the matter is, I do have experience with _many_ horses, including the one I own who happens to be a 1600 pound draft type who _is_ more sluggish than ideal. It is my personal opinion that to dispel that sluggishness, a natural cue, like a nudge, is better than a reprimand with a stick or spur. They all respect me, they all move up when I ask. All of them. Some need less pressure than others, some require a firmer squeeze, maybe enough to pop a balloon. None are ever kicked (by me). If I'm riding a horse that doesn't respect a leg cue, I make him work even harder, not by hitting him but I'll ask for a turn on the haunches or back him up fifteen paces (and NOT by grabbing at his face, thank you, whoever said people should learn to ride with their seat more anything else you are so right, why don't people get that that is our most important aid). Once he is respecting nudges, I end the lesson and do some ground work after he's had a break. If, in the field, a colt wasn't keeping up with it's mare, the mother wouldn't lash out at him, she'd be concerned. If he disrespected her and failed to move out of her way (like a nudge when riding) she'd scare him off out of the group and make him run until he was sorry and respectful. If she pinns her ears and lunges towards him, rarely will she follow through, she's just saying 'I _can_ make you, and I will' . He learns respect, comes back to the group and is fine. As for on the ground, sure, in the field if horses concerned with social standing feel one is trying to up the other, they will retaliate by kicking and biting, but then, the one bing bitten has options. He can run. He can run away and the other horse won't follow too far, the subordinate will accept it's place and give the other space. Or he can continue to fight. In a barn, there are no options he stands there helplessly and is abused. As long as he is attacking you, smacking him with your hand _hard_ is fine but as soon as he stops, he has been taught. If you take the time to get a whip, one, you are leaving, admitting defeat, and then attacking him after his mind has switched ideas, and two, you are creating an unnatural situation where he can't submit and won't fight back.

I'm not against whips and spurs in proper hands. A whip used to tap is fine, a whip used to inflict pain with a smack is not. A rounded spur used, like in dressage, to pinpoint muscles and use different cues for different moves is fine - as long as no pressure is applied with it, forward and sideways come from pressure from nudges and squeezes of the heel and calf, not spurs dug into their sides.

also, let me say again that I know very little about western stuff

see, now you got me all defensive! lol, wow, okay, don't take any of the above personally, it's just my (over defended) view

oh, and the license and certificate ideas, I like it, it's just way too impractical. If only you could only ride at commercial barns and commercial barns regulated use (and were educated)[/i]


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## C-Bear (Jul 1, 2008)

JustDressageIt said:


> Dumas'_Grrrl said:
> 
> 
> > I think that bits, whips and spurs are all just fine. They are tools for a purpose. A hammer is a tool also. I wouldn't give some one a hammer that didn't know how to use it and I wouldn't give some one a whip that didn't know how to use it either.
> ...


i agree i have had to use a crop/whip with one or two horses but i can honestly say that i have never used them abuseivly.


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## mlkarel2010 (Jan 27, 2008)

Brandon said:


> Well here is my opinon. I believe that spurs should only be used as a very last resort. I think ALOT of people mis-use spurs and cause horses much harm! I have personally have never used spurs and i don't plan on it.
> 
> I also believe shanks longer than 4 inches are abit wrong. i mean i know it gives the rider more leverage and such, but i mean thats like takin the easy way out of a trainor error.
> 
> ...


this is the closest out of everything to what i believe!! 

spurs are misused and overrated if you ask me.... more ppl wear them for show, or just because everyone else does, and they have no idea HOW to use them! if you know how to use them and you have one that has a rowel that has wide dull points and a small point and use it correctly you are fine, but i think spurs should only be used as a last resort as said or for refinement and sideways movements, not for harpooning or speeding up

bits.... i think you should use the mildest bit possible on your horse, and sometimes that doesn't even mean a bit.... ride in a halter if you can if it's just a fun little ride.... i mean, no harm done really.... curb bits are a touchy topic..... i know a lot of ppl aren't too thrilled about parelli, but i do respect what he says about bits for the most part http://www.equestmagazine.com/v3s1/article07-01-a2.php I think that if you can find something with smaller than a 4 inch shank or even a 4 inch shank, go for it!! but that is nearly impossible (in western anyway) the shortest shanked bit i have has 5 inch shanks ( i think) and even that is hard to find! the majority of western curbs are 7-8 and there are some 6 but very few less than that......... I absolutely detest broken curbs, but if it works for you then why fix what ain't broke?? Bits are my passion, and i don't want to go on about this forever so if you want to hear more, PM me or something

crops, i do agree shouldn't be used to beat the horse, but sometimes tapping doesn't cut it and if you keep doing it lightly it will actually desensitize them to the crop.... so if they don't listen to the tapping, you do need to give them a nice smart whapp on the butt, once they understand if they don't move on the tap they'll get whapped they'll move on the tap! but don't just beat the horse senseless or keep tapping and not reinforcing your cues, you'll end up with an abused (beating) or spoiled (repeated tapping not reinforced) horse


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## LuLu (Sep 11, 2007)

I always carry a whip when I ride my horse, but only as a back up to my leg aid, I NEVER use it as punishment, and I hate it when I see other people using it in that manner, that's not what they are for! I have no problem with bits, but I also believe you should use the mildest possible, I can't stand it when I see some of these horses strapped down with every gadget possible. I never have and never will use spurs, I just don't like them, but if people o use them, imo they shouldn't be used to speed the horse up, only for refining the aids.


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## flywithoutwings (Jun 29, 2008)

What do you all think about martingales?


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## mlkarel2010 (Jan 27, 2008)

flywithoutwings said:


> What do you all think about martingales?


I personally don't like running martingales. I think that if you have them short enough to help with vertical flexion then it restricts lateral flexion and if you have it long enough not to restrict lateral flexion it does nothing for vertical flexion. So my opinion is to learn how to have good hands and get a proper headset on your own terms w/o the help of the martingale. JMO


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## flywithoutwings (Jun 29, 2008)

I used to use a running martingale when I did cross country. On that horse, it was helpful because it gave him freedom but kept him focused. On the flat or in a ring where you are cantering jumps in familiar grounds, though, I don't like them. Tying a head down is not all right (especially goes for standing martingales, I hate those things). I know a properly adjusted one doesn't hold the horses head down but I feel that if you aren't relying on it - why have it on? If you need it as an emergency brake/correction - it becomes cruel. And if you do 'need' it - there is a flaw in your riding or your horses training.


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## kickshaw (May 7, 2008)

i think running martingales are worth their weight in gold 

especially useful for teaching a saddleseat rider how to use a double bridle


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## LuLu (Sep 11, 2007)

I don't mind running martingles, but if you need to use them all the time, then that's not good! There is no substitute for good schooling in my book! I do not like standing martingales, there is no need for one! And it's a pet hate of mine when I see horses being jumped in them! :x They can't stretch over the jump properly because they were designed to keep the head down.


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## flywithoutwings (Jun 29, 2008)

LuLu said:


> I don't mind running martingles, but if you need to use them all the time, then that's not good! There is no substitute for good schooling in my book! I do not like standing martingales, there is no need for one! And it's a pet hate of mine when I see horses being jumped in them! :x They can't stretch over the jump properly because they were designed to keep the head down.


yep yep!! Get's me so annoyed...


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## Supermane (Sep 23, 2007)

LuLu said:


> I don't mind running martingles, but if you need to use them all the time, then that's not good! There is no substitute for good schooling in my book! I do not like standing martingales, there is no need for one! And it's a pet hate of mine when I see horses being jumped in them! :x They can't stretch over the jump properly because they were designed to keep the head down.


I ride in a standing martingale and it doesn't restrict my horse over jumps. I need it because my horse will fling his head up occasionally when he does his lead changes. If you had the same problem you would probably see the advantages of riding in one.


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## horsejumper (Jul 1, 2008)

I have never used a whip, spurs, or bits on my mare. But i might have to use a whip when i teach her to jump. Other wise she most likely will just stand there on the lunge line lol. but it will never touch her. 
I ride with the natural bitless bridle, and western saddle.


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## horsejumper (Jul 1, 2008)

i dont know what a marntigle is. But i can see the advantage of them if your horse does fly his head to the point where its dangoures. but i would just try to fix that.
I dont like it when a horse has a bit in its mouth, and its pulled, them having to fource there heads down to low, or rised to high. I think at what ever the horse is comfortable at im am aswell.


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## LuLu (Sep 11, 2007)

Supermane said:


> LuLu said:
> 
> 
> > I don't mind running martingles, but if you need to use them all the time, then that's not good! There is no substitute for good schooling in my book! I do not like standing martingales, there is no need for one! And it's a pet hate of mine when I see horses being jumped in them! :x They can't stretch over the jump properly because they were designed to keep the head down.
> ...


I have always been taught that standing martingales are never to be used when jumping as they are designed to stop the horse moving his head. I much prefer running ones as they stop the horse lifting his head to point where you can't control him (providing that there is nothing wrong with him), but they still allow the horse to have the freedome to stretch.


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## flywithoutwings (Jun 29, 2008)

I agree with Lulu on the jumping. Really all they should be used for, in my opinion, is to stop a horse who throws his head from throwing it up to the point where it either hurts his neck or breaks your nose. Really, if you are taking things step by step in your riding/training regimen, then you don't need one. You should never need to tie your horses head down, your hands can do it with more sympathy and without the risk of injury to the horse from not being able to move naturally or to both of you if something happened over a fence.


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## LuLu (Sep 11, 2007)

flywithoutwings said:


> I agree with Lulu on the jumping. Really all they should be used for, in my opinion, is to stop a horse who throws his head from throwing it up to the point where it either hurts his neck or breaks your nose. Really, if you are taking things step by step in your riding/training regimen, then you don't need one. You should never need to tie your horses head down, your hands can do it with more sympathy and without the risk of injury to the horse from not being able to move naturally or to both of you if something happened over a fence.


Yep, I agree!


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## Supermane (Sep 23, 2007)

LuLu said:


> Supermane said:
> 
> 
> > LuLu said:
> ...


They don't stop a horses head from stretching. My horses nose can touch the ground if he wanted it. If the martingale is restricting the head like that then it is improperly fit. The standing martingale is used on horses that lift their head beyond the point of control like the running ones, but running martingales either can't be used in hunter or people just don't...


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## kickshaw (May 7, 2008)

LuLu said:


> I don't mind running martingles, but if you need to use them all the time, then that's not good! There is no substitute for good schooling in my book! I do not like standing martingales, there is no need for one! And it's a pet hate of mine when I see horses being jumped in them! :x They can't stretch over the jump properly because they were designed to keep the head down.


in saddleseat, they aren't used to keep the horse's head down at all...rather "tuck the nose in". I believe that an improperly used and adjusted running martingale could "keep one's head down", but not if they're used as they're intended - and most certainly not with a saddleseat horse...you'll see what I mean if you take a look at that previously posted picture :wink:


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## flywithoutwings (Jun 29, 2008)

yes, hunters don't use running martingales. but if your martingale is adjusted so that your horse can put its nose in the sand then how does that prevent him from flinging his head up? It would be too long to stop him and thus pointless. If it's shorter then he can't stretch his neck (and thereby can''t use his back) out and between his legs over a jump


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## Supermane (Sep 23, 2007)

flywithoutwings said:


> yes, hunters don't use running martingales. but if your martingale is adjusted so that your horse can put its nose in the sand then how does that prevent him from flinging his head up? It would be too long to stop him and thus pointless. If it's shorter then he can't stretch his neck (and thereby can''t use his back) out and between his legs over a jump











This is a picture of my horse in his martingale on the flat. He doesn't need it at on the hack, but I don't think it restricts him at all. I was exaggerating about his nose touching the ground, but I still think he stretches just fine in it.[/img]


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## Supermane (Sep 23, 2007)

And the only kind of horse that I think it would affect over the jump is a horse that jumps incorrectly with his head straight up in the air.


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## flywithoutwings (Jun 29, 2008)

that's a horse's natural jump. His head stretches down between his knees, stretching through his back, giving a nice bascule. Imagine a 'properly adjusted' standing martingale on that horse! If it didn't restrict him on that jump, then it would be a hazard on the flat because it's loop would hang so low


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

he's hollow backed.


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## appylover31803 (Sep 18, 2007)

I understand about how a standing martingale can interfere with the horse jumping, but if they're not jumping huge jumps, then i don't see how it could really get in the way. you know, the jumps where the horse basically canters over them?


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## Supermane (Sep 23, 2007)

Sorry if you don't agree, but most hunters use standing martingales since running martingales are illegal.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

No you're not! Don't say it if you don't mean it! You are making a point.... Backing it up... telling it like it is...

stand tall be proud....


all that stuff!


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## flywithoutwings (Jun 29, 2008)

most hunters couldn't stay on if they actually went hunting
most hunters modify the natural jump


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## Supermane (Sep 23, 2007)

flywithoutwings said:


> most hunters couldn't stay on if they actually went hunting
> most hunters modify the natural jump


That has absolutely nothing to do with the use of martingales and is somewhat uncalled for.


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## flywithoutwings (Jun 29, 2008)

it has to do with the 'most hunters' thing you said, but yes, it was uncalled for and I apologize. I was annoyed at the world and stressed out when I said that, sorry.


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## Abby (Nov 26, 2007)

Although I personally don't use them, I don't mind people using them in the proper way.

Today, I was at the Quarter Horse Show, the classes were cancelled due to storm but I stayed to watch the people ride their horses cuz I'm goofy like that.

There were a few Reiners in the warm up arena, a few Western Pleasure folks and some Trail Class guys.

As I was watching, I could see that despite the fact there were several people of each discipline, each was treating their horse different. One guy didn't have spurs or even a bit, and the other two guys had both. One guy didn't use his spurs at all except once when the colt pinned his ears when he asked him to trot he gave him a small push with the spur. The spurs were being used properly.. while the other guy was digging his horse with them and snapping on the rein at the same time, the horses ears were cocked and he was confused backing up and spinning all over the place, with his head up and neck braced trying to figure out what he was supposed to do.

Honestly, just as everyone has been saying, the tools are great when used properly. My horse, does not need a crop, whip, bat whatever. He doesn't need spurs. He just minds. He does need a bit, and so I use one only as strong as a bit I need to have gentle communication.


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## LuLu (Sep 11, 2007)

Why are running martingales illegal? :?


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