# Sudden spooky behavior in one end of arena - long



## eclecticrider (Apr 20, 2017)

I just purchased my first horse (15 year old appendix gelding) about 5 weeks ago. He is the lesson horse I had been riding for approximately 6 months, so I already knew the horse. I was offered my choice of 2 lesson horses, and I chose him because he was more of a challenge. He was not a push-button ride like the other lesson horse, so I felt I would grow more as a horse person with him. I also love his clown-like personality! I am certainly growing in ways I never expected from him!

Anyway, about 3 weeks ago, I was riding him in the indoor. The end of the arena a quarter of the way down from the gate I enter and exit with him from while tracking right has a lot of "business" going on. The tractor is parked just outside the ring at that end inside the arena walls, the wash stalls are at that end, and there are 3 doors leading to the outside (two are standard swing doors, one of which is always closed, the 3rd is a garage style door big enough for the tractor to enter and exit through) Some boarders bring their horses in and out of the doors at that end while we are riding. On this day, the standard door was open to the outside, the wash stall lights were on, and someone outside dropped metal - loudly. He spooked with a splay startle and tried to spin to run. I got him steadied easily, but he was very wary of that end. I was the only one in the arena at the time, and rode him closer and closer and closer to the spot where he spooked until finally he would walk, trot and canter the entire circumference of the arena without even a sideways glance. After that, he was perfectly fine in that corner until this past week.

Thursday evening, the large garage door and the standard door were both open to let air in, and the wash stall light was on again. He was moving fine around the arena until another boarder was waiting at the gate at that end to enter and ride. They are supposed to yell door when the doors are closed, so we know the door is about to open, but the doors were already open, so she entered almost silently. Something about her and her pony startled him, and he wanted NOTHING to do with them. He startled and side stepped, he backed up and didn't WANT to go forward. I was able to gently push him forward through it after a few seconds. The boarder entered after we passed, and he was fine for the rest of our ride.

Friday, he spooked more dramatically at that end at I don't even know what (wash stall lights were on, but doors to outside were closed) and when I tried to urge him through, he would do little "baby rears" to voice his displeasure at me trying to push him forward. My instructor said she thinks he is trying to "play me" as he is not a spooky horse. He has lived at that farm for almost his entire 15 year life, so he isn't adjusting to anything other than me being his owner as opposed to the barn manager. The barn manager owned him but didn't ride him. He was used as a lesson horse 3 days per week by myself and a handful of competent lesson students on a rotation. Now he is ridden by myself 3 hours per week and the same other lesson students 2 hours per week. He is never ridden more than 1 hour in any day. My instructor encouraged me to become more assertive (but not aggressive) with him by using a firmer leg, and taps with the crop on his back end to MAKE HIM GO into the "scary corner." At one point she had me back him to remind him that I'm the leader. Eventually, I was able to get him to go into that end by following other horses into the corner, but then when we tried alone he would startle and fight again. It took 30 minutes of back and forth between him and me before he would walk confidently into that end. I made sure he would walk the entire circumference of the arena 4 times without even a sideways glance before dismounting. He was quite sweaty from being all worked up - as was I! 

I didn't ride him Saturday night because I had been on other horses so many hours for my job (I work at another farm further away from my house) that day that my legs were shot. I hand walked him in the empty arena instead, and he startled himself by stepping too close to the wall, making a knocking sound but settled immediately while in hand. I even took the lead line off so he could "go play" and he followed me around with no problem, walking and halting with me as if I still had the line on. He seemed fine at that end when I put him back in his stall for the night.

Last night, I rode him again, and AGAIN, he spooked at that end of the arena in the same spot as Thursday and Friday. This time, there was no weird noise or anything, the only difference was the tractor wasn't parked at the end where it usually is. The doors were both closed, and I didn't take notice of the wash stall lights. Like I said, that's a very busy end of the arena and something is almost always slightly different. Anyway, I didn't want to get into a 30 minute spitting match with him, so I didn't get "assertive" with my leg or crop, and instead followed my friend on her horse at that end of the arena for a few minutes. I'm grateful my friend was willing to just walk in circles and figure 8s at that end for about 5 minutes with my horse following! When he seemed completely calm again, (ears relaxed, head dropped, big sigh) she went on to continue working her horse away from us, and I worked him gently at a walk doing circles and figure 8's, walk/halt transitions, and just basically walking all around that end for another several minutes before continuing on with our regular work. He was fine for the remainder of the 45 minutes I rode him, entering and moving around that end with no problem at all. So now I can't help but wonder how he will behave for his lesson student tonight or the next time I ride him!

He only shows this behavior when we are tracking to the right (away from his usual exit gate). He has not yet behaved this way tracking to the left.

My questions are, is he playing me trying to see how trustworthy of a leader I am, or is he genuinely afraid of something down there? If he is afraid, how can I get it through to him that the "scary" end of the arena isn't so scary? If this is becoming a habitual behavior, how can I break the habit? I don't want to be too assertive with a genuinely frightened horse and make him MORE frightened, but I also don't want to be too soft if it is him testing my leadership skills if that makes sense. I don't want him to behave like this for someone else and that person get hurt as a result, but I know my instructor is very careful about who she allows to ride him. I have not heard of him behaving this way for anyone else lately, but that could just be dumb luck. That being said, a friend of mine leased him over the winter, and he told me that this horse would "randomly" spook for HIM at that end of the arena as well. Sigh. 

I'm having my instructor ride him a few times while I'm on vacation in a few weeks so that I don't have to start at square one when I get back. I do trust her advice, but wanted to see what other suggestions folks here might have. I have included a little diagram of our arena so you can more easily see what I'm describing. When you walk through "our gate" it leads through a short passageway to the aisle where my horse's stall is. When you walk through the "3rd gate," it leads to another short passageway to another aisle of stalls. 


closed standard
door garage door door 
_____|X|____|XXXXXXX|_|X|_________ 
|sink wash stall|
|dryer -----------|
|washer wash stall|
| tractor -----------| 
| |
| podium rear gate |
| /---------------XX----------------\ |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| |*(Spook spot) | |
| |(while tracking | |
| |right only) | |
| | | |
| | | |
X (our gate) X (3rd gate)
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| \_________________________/ |
| |
|xxxx_____________________________|
door to outside


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

eclecticrider said:


> My instructor encouraged me to become more assertive (but not aggressive) with him by using a firmer leg, and taps with the crop on his back end to MAKE HIM GO into the "scary corner." At one point she had me back him to remind him that I'm the leader.
> 
> I made sure he would walk the entire circumference of the arena 4 times without even a sideways glance before dismounting.
> 
> ...


Sounds to me like he's an older horse that knows better and he's testing you. 

Make sure you are not riding like you expect him to spook in that spot. Many of us will anticipate a horse is going to do something ... which then is what CAUSES the horse to do it. Ride like you expect him to go past it without a hitch -- like he has never spooked in that spot before.

On an older horse that knows better, they would get worked HARD in the "spooky" corner until they got their attention back on me.

I will cut some slack to a younger horse that is green, because you are right, you don't want to get after them if they are afraid. You just want to teach them to bring their focus back on the rider, and ignore the environment. But in this case, I think he's testing you from what you describe, so you need to whoop his butt and make him knock it off.


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

^^^What Beau said, and I might also mention that this is a school horse and you have just bought him a few weeks ago and it's possible that he is not getting the same amount of work that he was as a school horse so he is feeling more frisky and looking for opportunities to misbehave that he wouldn't if he was working more. This is still no excuse though for bad manners. 
Is he still getting the same amount of feed, maybe he needs less grain. Do you have a different saddle for him, maybe a fitting issue


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

Ahhh, I've been through the "fake spook" on horses before. Not to say none of them were real, but these most recent ones sound like he's resisting.

I would tackle it by working him HARD in the end that he WANTS to be in, and bring him to the "spooky" part of the ring to give him a rest. Repeat, repeat, repeat, until he's practically begging you to go hang out there instead!


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

This Warwick Schiller video covers this really well:


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I will have to disagree.

he doesn't want to go into the spooky corner. working him hard there only makes it worse to BE there. make him work hard away from that corner, and then ask him to go into the corner. he will go only so close, then he'll turn and try to leave it. Let him. but, as soon as he does leave, start making him uncomfortable. that can mean making him trot tight circles, it can mean flapping your legs on his sides incessantly, it can mean just making him work fast . but , you make the work seem a bit rushed and not your lazy dazy work. 

after a bit, you turn toward that spot, and as you move toward it, stop the 'fuss' level. go quietly toward it . . all peaceful like . . . until . . . he turns away from it! you get busy making him work again. where he goes doesn't matter. in fact random but rapid movement is all the better. 

rinse and repeat. in time, he will go deeper and deeper into that corner/spot if when he IS going that way, things get quiet and easy. if goes and does not try to leave, then YOU LET HIM STOP AND STAND AND REST THERE. hang out for a bit, then, BEFORE he decides he can't stand it any longer, YOU ask him to leave , ride around a bit not too crazy like, ask him to go back to the 'spot'. if he goes, let him rest there. get it good a couple times, and then quit. get off of him AT the spot. hang out there, pet him, give him a small treat, then you are done for the hour.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

He sounds like he is a habitual spooker, and is also most likely feeding off of your body language.
If you expect him to spook in that area, tense up, he won't disappoint your expectations
If he has been ridden by there lots, knows there is nothing dangerous there, I would ride him actively by there, , get his attention back on you.
Larry Trocha has some good videos on the different kinds of spooks, and how to deal with them, including ahorse that becomes habitual spooker, spooking in the same area over and over again
This is also a lesson horse, and has gotten very good at reading different riders and testing them


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> I will have to disagree.
> 
> he doesn't want to go into the spooky corner. working him hard there only makes it worse to BE there. make him work hard away from that corner, and then ask him to go into the corner. he will go only so close, then he'll turn and try to leave it. Let him. but, as soon as he does leave, start making him uncomfortable. that can mean making him trot tight circles, it can mean flapping your legs on his sides incessantly, it can mean just making him work fast . but , you make the work seem a bit rushed and not your lazy dazy work.
> 
> ...


I am going to have to agree with Beau on this point. You can work a horse through a spooky place, using body control, make him focus on you, and once he is listening, focusing on you, that is the time I would let him stop and rest in that area, but a horse does not decide where to take me, leaving a spooky place


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## eclecticrider (Apr 20, 2017)

Woodhaven said:


> ^^^What Beau said, and I might also mention that this is a school horse and you have just bought him a few weeks ago and it's possible that he is not getting the same amount of work that he was as a school horse so he is feeling more frisky and looking for opportunities to misbehave that he wouldn't if he was working more. This is still no excuse though for bad manners.
> Is he still getting the same amount of feed, maybe he needs less grain. Do you have a different saddle for him, maybe a fitting issue


I had a saddle fitter out this past week. She made a couple slight adjustments, but my saddle supposedly fits him well. I do have a Thinline trifecta pad on order to replace his fleece pad at her suggestion. The other students either ride in THEIR own saddles or one of the school's saddles (yuck). But, he is acting up with me, not them, so I don't think it's saddle fit. 

He is actually getting worked slightly MORE now than he was before I bought him, so he may be adjusting. Previously, he was in lessons where he spent about 45 min W/T/C and about 15 min jumping on Mon, Tues and Thurs. Now he still has those same 3 lessons (I ride him Thursdays, but other lesson students ride him Monday and Tuesday), in addition to Weds 30 min of light flat work, Fri 30 min of light flat work, off on Saturdays (I groom him and take him out to graze on a lead line to spend time with him) and Sunday 60 min of flat work, for a total of 5 hours of riding each week. 

Could it be he is adjusting to the INCREASE in work and is trying to test me since I ride him more than anyone else?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

either the way suggested by Beau, or by myself, can work because what the end result is that you communicate to the horse that you are not scared by his behavior, and that you won't shut down, even for a sec, as his 'captain', and that you will 'tell' him where things will be ok. the pure action of taking a strong leading role, in either approach, gives the horse an anchor of leadership, which should remove him turning to spooking as a way of reacting to what might be a bit of a blank in how you present yourself to him.


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## bellagris (Dec 6, 2010)

Been there...I once boarder at a place that decided to rent a suite/quonset attached to the indoor arena to a mechanic...that was awesome...not. 

Unfortunately the best way to move past that IMO is to work down there. I will end my sessions and dismount in the spooky area. Rest there, use active neutral there, I try to make it a place that they like and if they spook I'll do a circle and go back ...still it boils down to leadership and young or old horse, knows better or not...being a leader down there is important. Expect that they are calm and they usually will be at the very least a more reasonable version of the spooky self, expect a spook and your body will set them off.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

You have another variable, that I must have missed, or that you did not mention before.
I did not realize that he was still being used as a lesson horse, thus has others riding him, so any variable on how those other riders handle his spooks is either going to help or hinder you
I assumed that he now was your hrose, thus ridden only by you or your trainer


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## eclecticrider (Apr 20, 2017)

Smilie said:


> You have another variable, that I must have missed, or that you did not mention before.
> I did not realize that he was still being used as a lesson horse, thus has others riding him, so any variable on how those other riders handle his spooks is either going to help or hinder you
> I assumed that he now was your hrose, thus ridden only by you or your trainer


I have ownership but I have an agreement with the stable to allow him to continue to be used as a lesson horse by others 2 nights per week in exchange for reduced board fees. I agreed to it because I work a few nights each week and just can't be at the stable long enough to ride him on those days. This way, someone else is exercising my horse and I'm also saving a little money. The people riding him now are the same people that have been riding him since before I bought him. My instructor is the only one allowed to use him for her students in lessons, and she is VERY careful about who she allows to ride him because he is a more advanced horse (compared to the other lesson horses) who will tell you in no uncertain terms if you are over-riding him. He has a mind of his own for sure. I agree that he is trying to see what he can get away with. I will try the suggestions above for the next few rides and let you all know how it goes!


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Smilie said:


> You have another variable, that I must have missed, or that you did not mention before.
> I did not realize that he was still being used as a lesson horse, thus has others riding him, so any variable on how those other riders handle his spooks is either going to help or hinder you
> I assumed that he now was your hrose, thus ridden only by you or your trainer


I missed that too Tiny, until the OP clarified. That does make the situation more challenging because he might be "getting away with it" with the other riders, and can make a problem like this more difficult to fix.



tinyliny said:


> I will have to disagree.
> 
> he doesn't want to go into the spooky corner. working him hard there only makes it worse to BE there.


I should clarify more when I said _"On an older horse that knows better, they would get worked HARD in the "spooky" corner until they got their attention back on me."_ If the horse is being spooky, it means they do not have their attention to me and they are not listening to me. I don't care where we are in the arena (if it happens to be in the spooky spot, so be it) but if I am riding a horse that I know should know better, I am going to get after them to bring their focus and attention back to me. Circles, rollbacks, serpentines, stops, turns, etc. Whatever it may be. Whatever it takes to get the horse to forget about what they were spooking at, and think about ME instead. When they are focused on me, the spooky area of the arena becomes a non-issue.

But I suppose in a sense I would disagree with what you said, because with what you posted, you still allow the horse to "spook" and leave and only discipline them after (to start with). I'd rather not give them the option to think about doing it, because they are so busy responding to my cues. I'd rather ride proactively, than reactively.


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## Jan1975 (Sep 7, 2015)

My horse did the same thing--suddenly decided he was terrified of one corner of the arena. I'm positive it's boredom/testing on his part. If he likes what we're doing (jumping), he doesn't even look in that corner. If he's bored (flat work), suddenly it's terrifying. We just keep him working until he can pass it calmly then he gets to rest.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Hows your lateral work/shoulder control? 

I have two different types of spookers. 

My spooky wb is a predicable spooker. I know what his mood is for that day and how he is going to react to certain spots. Before he gets a chance to spook, I will ride him in a shoulder fore, or leg yield out to the spot depending on out approach. The spookier spots we will circle away from, but with a leg yield to the outside and inside bend. Like we are drifting out on the circle. Brings the focus through the lateral work and connection and they still think they are getting away from it. Eventually they grab a hold of their brain and you can ride beside it with a exaggerated inside bend. 

Dont make a big deal about the spot itself. Focus on the shape of his body and the moment you lose the connection is the moment the spook begins and you need to start engaging again through circles, leg yield, shoulder in...

I think you horse would benefit from being ridden like this.

My other horse generally is not spooky. I find with him if I'm able to let him stop and look, he takes a second then gets over it. That's not always possible though, so I do also ride him through like the above.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

beau159;9946474
But I suppose in a sense I would disagree with what you said said:


> well, if you make him get busy when he's away from the spooky place , you aren't 'punishing him', so to speak. you are just making his choice, to be away from the place, to be an uncomfortable place. you don't go so close that he spooks. you ALLOW him to choose to leave that place, since he's thinking about it all along, up until he decides, "Hey, I'm gonna spook and then I can get out of work".
> 
> you LET him make that choice, but you make him get to thinking that that place isn't so fun. then you put him in the direction of the 'scary place', and see to what point he'll go before the thinks he wants to go the other way. again, you let him leave, before he actually 'spooks'.
> 
> ...


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Horses understand well when we punish them for kicking, biting or crowding because other horses punish each other for these things. But horses don't get punished by other horses for spooking, in fact other horses tend to reinforce spooking by reacting with excitement, fast movement and tense body language. I believe that often a horse will spook and the rider will react with punishment, which is actually transmitting to the horse everything another horse would do to reinforce that the object was indeed spooky: excitement, fast movements and tense body language. 

When horses do not reinforce another horse's spook (you're crazy, man) they do so by being non-reactive. They will either just look calmly at the object or ignore it altogether. Taking a spooky horse out with a calm horse will soon reduce the frequency of the spooking. So my preference is to try to teach the horse this way, by being the older, wiser horse and saying, "Nothin' to worry about." This is accomplished by not looking at the spooky area, remaining calm, and not reacting with jerking or anything else that might reinforce the horse's initial negative thoughts or worries.

I don't think of this as the horse misbehaving, or making things up, or testing me, or anything like that. I try to think of it very simply: the horse is not calm at that spot. It doesn't matter so much what is making the horse "not calm," what matters is helping the horse be calm. Some horses work up with fast paced work and transitions, so that would not be the thing to do if you have that type of horse. Other horses get more calm with this type of work when they have to focus. Some horses might get calm just by stopping and standing for awhile so they can relax and think. If the horse seems "not calm" in an area, I do things that help the horse be calm somewhere else and don't try to force the horse into the area of concern until he is calm about going there. 

I think people give horses tons of credit for trying to get out of work. If a horse is trying to get out of work, there is something wrong with the work. That should be the focus, making the work enjoyable and comfortable rather than punishing the horse for a bad attitude. If you had to stand in a line counting beads all day, it would be better for me to break up your day by making things more interesting instead of turning the heat up if you complain to punish you. Horses enjoy interesting work. Like most animals, they like moving and using their bodies as long as it is comfortable and not tediously boring. 

My advice after trying to fix this type of issue with horses and failing for awhile but then succeeding, is that I've been the most successful when I've decided to forget about it altogether. Don't think about it, don't worry about it, don't try to train it. If the horse spooks, I look straight ahead where I was going, wait for the horse to recollect himself, and keep on with what I was doing. This doesn't reinforce the fear, or the behavior, and the horse will very soon stop doing it. 

Sometimes I've been on a horse that made a large veer away from a part of the arena wall, and I've just pretended we were making perfect lines and kept on riding. The veer would get smaller each lap, but I wouldn't worry about trying to force the horse into the area of concern, just on having the horse moving forward at the pace I asked. The next time out it would be much better, and often the time after that we'd have no issues at all.


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## Jan1975 (Sep 7, 2015)

Here's a video on spooking if you're interesting:


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## eclecticrider (Apr 20, 2017)

The Warwick Schiller videos are great! I was also pointed to this one about "



" that sounds EXACTLY like what I'm dealing with. He "startles," my reaction is to pull on or fuss with the reins to stop him from going where HE wants and to squeeze and kick to make him go where "I" want, and low and behold, I have a rearing horse. Sigh. So now I know what I'm doing WRONG and have to replace my behavior with the right response. 

A couple of things I want to try in addition to allowing to go where he wants, but making him work when he does it and releasing pressure when he chooses to go where I want him to is when I'm NOT in lessons I want to work him in the middle third of the ring where his exit gate is. I also want to try to start using the gate near the "spooky end of the ring" at least half of the time so that he likes that end more than he does now. LOL. Hopefully he doesn't start just spooking at the OTHER end because there is no exit gate down there!

I can't wait to start working with him tomorrow when I get to ride him again!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

gottatrot said:


> Horses understand well when we punish them for kicking, biting or crowding because other horses punish each other for these things. But horses don't get punished by other horses for spooking, in fact other horses tend to reinforce spooking by reacting with excitement, fast movement and tense body language. I believe that often a horse will spook and the rider will react with punishment, which is actually transmitting to the horse everything another horse would do to reinforce that the object was indeed spooky: excitement, fast movements and tense body language.
> 
> When horses do not reinforce another horse's spook (you're crazy, man) they do so by being non-reactive. They will either just look calmly at the object or ignore it altogether. Taking a spooky horse out with a calm horse will soon reduce the frequency of the spooking. So my preference is to try to teach the horse this way, by being the older, wiser horse and saying, "Nothin' to worry about." This is accomplished by not looking at the spooky area, remaining calm, and not reacting with jerking or anything else that might reinforce the horse's initial negative thoughts or worries.
> 
> ...



While spook is a spook, not all spooks have the same cause, nor do you deal with all of them in the same way. We have been over this ground many times, but I think it is important.
Sure, if a horse has a sudden spook , with something suddenly popping out at him, you just go with it, ride on as if nothing happened, providing the horse does not try to follow up with a bolt or a spin. Those spooks are to be expected and can't be prevented, although you can teach a horse through trust and respect, to dampen their reaction, with many horses learning to spook in place

When you know the horse is concerned about one certain spot in an arena, for example, you start to ride positively way before that trouble spot, by keeping forward momentum, and using some body control you have on the hrose, to successfully ride him past it

Horses aren't dumb, and if you do reward them for spooking, at first with that spook being a true fear spook, but not riding the horse through that spook, not making him go where asked, perhaps getting off and putting the hrose away, a smart horse does and will learn to use spooking to his advantage at times. I would suspect that a lesson horse is in particular prone to pick up this fact, being ridden by all types of riders

The confidence of the rider sure comes into play. If the rider tenses, expecting the horse to spook at a certain spot, the horse does not know that the rider is tense, fearing his reaction, just that his leader is tense, so that corner really must be a dangerous spot

That same horse, ridden by a confident rider, will go by that spot, with hardly a break in his stride, while refusing, spooking with a less confident rider. This also is natural component , far as his herd/prey mentality, as a horse is not only programmed to react, get a safe distance for a suspicious object, then assess, but also as a herd animal, trusts and gets confidence from a strong leader, A horse is also very good as a prey animal at reading our body language

I think this horses needs to be ridden by one rider at this time, not used as a lesson horse, and by a rider that can give the horse both confidence, while having the ability to ride that horse through that spooky area like it is no big deal, making the horse realize that he must continue to focus on his rider and obey the aids he understands

I would also be getting off of him, after a work session in various areas away from that out gate

No one is saying to punish a true fear spook, and I don't even know if the work punishment applies, when you correct a habitual or even a fake spook.
Other hroses also don't ride each other, nor ask a horse to go where he rather would not, so again, that horse herd punishment analogy does not apply, JMO
Working a horse through a problem spot, asking that horse to focus on you, is not punishment in my books, just positive riding. Now, if he were to spin around and try to bolt, yup, I will punish that attempt and spur him back into the direction he was going. I would then also reward, when he was facing that object, versus trying to 'leave the country.
If ahorse spooks over and over again, in the same spot he has gone by over and over again, I then totally agree with Larry Trocha on how to deal with that spook


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

A lesson horse that has not learned to read different riders and then take advantage of some riders, would be a rare beast in my books!
Letting a horse veer away, working closer to a certain spot, works for that area, but when you encounter another such situation, totally different venue, you must go through the same process again
There are times you need to body control to ride ahorse past an area of , concern first time.
Ever ridden ahorse along a rail, at a show, when some kid or dog suddenly runs along the fence ? You then need the respect, the body control, to keep that horse going, past that trouble spot-no place to veer and perhaps take out the judge!

So, to treat every spook in all situations the same, not reading the horse, is not correct in my books There are times you just go with that true fear spook, have the horse become less reactive by your own body language (sometimes harder done then said! ) and there are times to say with your cues, 'quit it!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

So, what in this video do you not agree with, Trottin? Maybe that will give us a basis for discussion


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

eclecticrider said:


> The Warwick Schiller videos are great! I was also pointed to this one about "Rearing and Destination Addiction" that sounds EXACTLY like what I'm dealing with................


Oh my gosh, I found this video very insightful! Years ago, at different times, I had two different horses that reared. The first one, was my second horse, an Arabian gelding, with tons of energy. He rarely reared but when he did it was something like when I was standing on the corner waiting to cross a road and he couldn't keep his feet still but I wouldn't let him go into the road (for obvious reasons) so he reared. I was a minor at the time and my Dad was impressed I could control him. That horse didn't intimidate me. He was an awesome horse, and he never reared unless it was just purely having to keep him from going somewhere and I had no room to walk him around. Other times I found just keeping him walking around in a circle or figure 8's when he got hyper worked well. He was one of the 95% Warwick talked about. 

Then I had this horrible mare once that was buddy sour and didn't want to leave the barn. She would balk and rear as a temper tantrum. She would do it on a totally loose rein. First ride after I bought her she was just hyper. Second ride she gave a baby buck (no big deal), third ride she reared and it scared me and that was the move she used forever after! 

Someone said to me (like Warwick Schiller did in the video) "don't pull on the reins" and I was like "I'm NOT, I'm wanting her to go forward, the reins are loose when she rears." So yeah, I guess she was one of the miserable 5%. Spoiled, sour horse, I only kept her a month. I was ignorant when I bought her, I test rode her with the owner riding her buddy and so I was too dumb to realize she was buddy sour. :evil:

Anyway, I found the video insightful, on mainly how the motives of a rear can differ. A horse that rears when when being ridden forward is feeling it has no place to go. A horse that rears on a loose rein from a standstill is trying to intimidate you and has learned it works. That's my take on it.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Didn't know we have gotten into rearing, as a form of balking or in a horse feeling 'trapped'
Certainly trying to hold onto a horse that wants to go, just using the reins, can have a horse resort to various things, like rearing, bucking or running backwards. In order to rear, a horse has to have hind end engaged, and also, most of those horses are stiff, not soft in the body or poll, so you can neither disengage their hips, ask for their face and poll, nor take the head away
I certainly had a spoiled horse, that reared to get rid of a rider, and also went went over backwards. I posted about that horse before. He was the spoiled anglo Arabian stud my step father bought me, not being a horseman, when I was about 15 years old
The mare I bought off the track, reared if held back, when another horse passed at speed, reverting to starting gate mode
rearing is dangerous vise, not because of the rear, which is actually easy to sit, but the potential harm when that horse goes over backwards. Thus, I made a point to train horses, so they never learn to rear under saddle in the first place. Having softness in the entire body, able to keep forward, disengage hips, ect prevent a horse form ever learning to go up

Thus, when a horse is heading home, and you have to cross road, where he has to stand and wait, just the ability to ask for that face, have the horse give at the poll, and wait for that rein release, versus learning to instead demand that a release, by going up, thus moving into pressure, goes a long ways to never having ahrose learn to go up in the first place


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Smilie said:


> Didn't know we have gotten into rearing, as a form of balking or in a horse feeling 'trapped'


My post was in response to this quote from the original poster:
_
*The Warwick Schiller videos are great! I was also pointed to this one about "Rearing and Destination Addiction" that sounds EXACTLY like what I'm dealing with................*_

So.......I think we have gotten into it. Nothing wrong with the subjects going with the flow I don't think.  

My personal example of the rearing Arabian on the street corner was from over 20 years ago. I was a horse addicted teenager with very little actual experience. So I'm not going to fret over it. I was just using that as an example of the two different types of rearing Warwick Schiller spoke of in the video.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Darn, google is giving me problems today, and I lost both my post and avery good video on rearing, actually from a western dressage trainer, and the importance of keeping forward and having that softness and response to aids, including giving at the poll.
I agree it is avery good topic to address, as rearing is the most dangerous thing ahrose can do, not because of the rear, that is easy to sit, but what can happen when the horse goes over backwards
Sorry if my words run together at times, as I have a problem with either words being erased when I simply wish to fix a spelling mistake, and also words running together, even when I hit the space bar. If anyone has a solution, i would appreciate it!My spelling and grammar really is not as terrible as it comes across. Is it my browser, key board, something else??????


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I enjoy the Warwick Schiller videos. he is very generous , having many of them up for free on Youtube.

one thing you have to do , though, is consider how you use your reins. in the video he posted on how to deal with a spooking horse, it is essential that you release the reins, really release the reins, at the good direction. many riders , especially English riders, spend so much time with near constant contact that they do not know what a full release feels like.

So, not only do you have to really give when the horse does what you ask, but you have to do it right then, not later. As in all horse training, timing is everything.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

We are talking of rearing now, and not necessarily spooking, yes?
True, in a rear you need to release those reins once ahorse goes up, but most of all, prevent that rear in the first place, by keeping foreward and having body control on ahorse, so you can ask for the face and poll, can dis engage the hips
Now, if we are talking purely about spooking, there is a time to just go with the horse, and there is also to take hold of one rein,thus taking the head away, while also using body control
if I have ahorse that is concerned about some object ahead, first thing I do, is keep forward and ask for the face and poll. Head up, is flight mode p,lus a horse can stiffen to any rein aids that way. You also need body control, as reins only control ahorse from the withers forward, legs the rest.Horse's also follow their shoulders, not their nose, until we teach them to follow their nose with their entire body
In the end, to ride a horse successfully through stuff, prevent a rear, a escalation of a spook into a spin or bolt, to ride him successfully by someplace where there is no room for gradual approach you need that horse to be broke, have softness and body control


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## eclecticrider (Apr 20, 2017)

Smilie said:


> We are talking of rearing now, and not necessarily spooking, yes?


I guess my issue is a combination of both. The spooking led to a wrong response from ME by getting scared, using too much rein to stop him from turning and bolting, and not giving him anywhere to move his feet to except straight ahead into the corner which he refused to do. This led to the rearing (and I'm talking tiny little rears, basically hopping his front half up and down 6-10" off the ground a few times, not rearing to the point where he is trying to go over backwards on me). That was explained by my instructor and confirmed by the explanations I've seen here and in the videos I have been directed to. The advice I was given in my lesson when he started the "baby rearing" behavior was to bend his head toward my knee as soon as I feel his feet start to leave the ground so he can't go up any higher. I certainly don't want his behavior to escalate into something more dangerous than what it currently is. That is what brought me here.

Update: He was used in a lesson last night and tonight by other riders, and he went just fine into the corner for both other riders. Either he is over it (at least for now), or there is something about me that is causing the behavior. I ride him tomorrow (just flatwork without my instructor present, and maybe some ground poles), and I'm curious to see how he does. I need to make sure I don't tense up in anticipation and have him misread that.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Good luck, and let us know how it goes. Yes, just holding onto the reins when a horse spooks, eps stopping, refusing to go forward, is the wrong thing to do. Instead, move his body,using legs. In order to rear, a hrose has to stop and engage hind end, thus keeping forward is key
If you can't keep forward, straight ahead, then counter flex, do lateral work, take head away and disengage hips, ect-anything but try to hold the horse with rein pressure, allowing him to stop, rear end engaged.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Like CA or not, I think this is a sensible article on rearing. Popping off the ground a little bit, is the first step to a horse learning to use a full out rear, so nip that in the bud!
I also gather that the spooking your horse is doing, is to simply balk, thus refusing to move forward, when he is asked to go by that area of concern, versus a spook with the horse flying sideways. I would simply call that a balk, to keep things clearer, and then you absolutely must keep movement of some kind,
and use body control to make it difficult for him to engage that rear end, which he has to do, in order to rearTips for Stopping that Rearing | Ride Magazine


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## eclecticrider (Apr 20, 2017)

Smilie said:


> Like CA or not, I think this is a sensible article on rearing. Popping off the ground a little bit, is the first step to a horse learning to use a full out rear, so nip that in the bud!
> I also gather that the spooking your horse is doing, is to simply balk, thus refusing to move forward, when he is asked to go by that area of concern, versus a spook with the horse flying sideways. I would simply call that a balk, to keep things clearer, and then you absolutely must keep movement of some kind,
> and use body control to make it difficult for him to engage that rear end, which he has to do, in order to rearTips for Stopping that Rearing | Ride Magazine


It started as a full out spin to the right and try to run spook but then became a balk each time after that.


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## eclecticrider (Apr 20, 2017)

New update: 

I rode him just on the flat tonight and he was AMAZING!!! No spook, no rearing no refusing to go anywhere, I was able to ride him into the scary end on a loose rein. He executed trotting and Canter poles with ease. I'm so relieved!!! Tomorrow is lesson night and we will be jumping. Fingers crossed!!!


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