# Horse Injury whose liable?



## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I personally don't think it is your responsibility to pay for the injury but I do think if the owner wanted to pursue it she may have a legal stand because you are the BO. Geuss that was no help.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

I would think it's the BO's responsibility. Even though you made the boarder aware of it, you did say that you intended to fix it which indicates that you know it's been a problem.

The boarder has a right to expect a certain amount of security and protection for their horse against a possible threat to the horse's safety. You, as the BO, recognized the possibility of a problem but chose to minimize it. As the BO you are supposed to know more then your borders so her not insisting on the problem be cured is not a way of shifting the responsibility. 

My 2¢


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

I think you would be seen as liable as you were aware of the problem but chose to do nothing about it and admitted to the boarder that you were aware of it but didn't think it was a high priority. A lawyer could easily argue neglience I'm afraid.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Lis said:


> I think you would be seen as liable as you were aware of the problem but chose to do nothing about it and admitted to the boarder that you were aware of it but didn't think it was a high priority. A lawyer could easily argue neglience I'm afraid.


Agreed. If it has been a problem in the past, and the problem wasn't fixed and your boarder's horse got injured because of it, you should offer to pay for the vet bills arising from this. 
When my horse got hurt, it wasn't caught right away (he was boarded indoors.) On top of that, I was unable to be there for the vet to come out (I was in the hospital myself) and she bought a whole bunch of bandaging supplies from the vet too, which was very expensive. I was very upset with the barn owner but didn't tell her as much. I moved Denny fairly quickly afterwards, and she lost business because of it.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Yup it's your fault. You should pay for it or at least half. Make sure the fence gets fixed ASAP.


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## arabchica (Jul 5, 2009)

at least offer to pay half if she turns you down then it is on her and her only


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## Pidge (Sep 5, 2009)

I know there are laws in most states about people not being able to sue if _they_ get hurt by a horse but I dont know of any that protect barn owners if a horse is injured. I believe it is very likely that you could be sued for negligence in a situation like this. Thankfully the horses owner isnt angry.

I would offer to pay atleast half and get the fence fixed asap. After all it was very kind for the horses owner to not get upset over this.


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## starlinestables (Nov 24, 2008)

By that precedent, if a person boards their horse at a facility with a section of barb wire and that horse gets hurt then the barn would be liable! Let say there are trees in a pasture... A horse could poke its eye on a branch and lose and eye. A stall has a plastic corner feeder, a horse could put a leg through it slicing through a tendon. The horse owner knows of these risks but it's still the barn owners fault? 

Also, the horse that caused the actual injury had a shoe nail sticking out of that hind hoof and the owner knew about it.. Is she liable ?

MY fence did not cause the injury. I don't see how this would be any different than turning these two horses out together and them getting into a fight. So if you turn out 2 horses together and they injure each other that would also be my fault? This injury could've happened with her being in the original pasture. I also told her that portion of the fence would likely be fixed in the next month or two. She has only been here for 2 or 3 weeks.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

starlinestables said:


> By that precedent, if a person boards their horse at a facility with a section of barb wire and that horse gets hurt then the barn would be liable!


Yes, especially if you recognized it and mentioned it to your boarder. Barbed wire is a known danger to horses.



> Let say there are trees in a pasture... A horse could poke its eye on a branch and lose and eye. A stall has a plastic corner feeder, a horse could put a leg through it slicing through a tendon. The horse owner knows of these risks but it's still the barn owners fault?


The tree is a natural obstacle unlike leaving a piece of farm machinery in the middle of the field that causes a horse to break his leg. The plastic feeder - if sold for use with horses, could end up as a law suit for the manufacturer but if it was not intended for the use of horses, you could be held liable.


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## QtrHorse (Oct 13, 2008)

My Hold Harmless Agreement states I am NOT LIABLE for anything even in situations that could be considered negligence on my part.

Horses get hurt. It is a fact of life. Even in the best environments there are those who simply find something to injure themselves on or get into it with a "best buddy" and get a kick which causes an injury. We try to do our very best to prevent these situations but sometimes it is impossible. 

Containment or the lack there of is a elemental issue if you take horses as boarders. This is where you need to be 100% sure. As a BO you have a legal and moral obligation to ensure that your facilities are able to safely and securely accommodate the horses that owners place in your confidence and expertise. If you knowingly placed your boarders horse in the paddock which had proven to be unsecured in the past you may have made a poor decision. In good faith you should at least be open to discussing the situation with the owner. Once you admit any degree of liability it is simply a negotiation at that point. This situation may require some degree of personal liability because you were aware a potential problem existed and did not make the necessary changes to prevent a future occurrence and thus an animal was injured. 

It sounds as if this situation will be watched by your boarders to see how you handle it. It will likely be a good test of your business, communication and client relationship skills. Good luck.


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

The point is the accident would never have happened if you had fixed the fence as you knew horses could get underneath it. I would offer to pay half the costs as it will calm the waters. Even if the boarder isn't angry now someone might say something about sueing and paying half now won't be as bad as paying for all the costs and legal fees.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

starlinestables said:


> I'm the barn owner... There is a 40 ft section of my fence that is just one rail pipe and it divides 2 pastures. We've had it like that for a year. We've had 3 horses go under it (14.2 and below) no injuries though.
> 
> In fact, she asked about that particular part of the fence and we told her that yes horses have gotten under it before but it doesn't cause any injury and its infrequent. We also told her it was on our to-do list but wasn't a high priority.
> 
> Just curious what your opinion is..


I'm a BO. I also have horses in every turn out with boarders horses. Yes, fence boards get kicked out, etc. However - a section of fence where horses can get into the neighboring herd? Nope. I assume you divide as we do - horses that should get along with each other.

You had THREE lucky incidents. IMHO - the section of fence was this accident waiting to happen. The fact that you acknowledged it to this boarder - yikes.


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

mls said:


> I'm a BO. I also have horses in every turn out with boarders horses. Yes, fence boards get kicked out, etc. However - a section of fence where horses can get into the neighboring herd? Nope. I assume you divide as we do - horses that should get along with each other.
> 
> *You had THREE lucky incidents. IMHO - the section of fence was this accident waiting to happen. The fact that you acknowledged it to this boarder - yikes*.


ITA with mls.


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## starlinestables (Nov 24, 2008)

Well my agreement releases me as well. My place is very nice but it is marketed to potential boarders as a work in progress..thus the very competitive rates. If they don't like the fact that their horse has a 3% chance of getting into a pasture with other horses that will be turned out with their horse anyway in the future? Then they can take their horse to another facility.

This same lady was at a 30 million dollar facility and her yearling almost broke his leg in the stall door because he got his hoof caught in the bars.

OH and the plastic corner feeder IS marketed to horse owners and it was my horse that reared in the stall and sliced his leg open.. / So I should go sue the manufacturer? What is this world coming to?


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

I'd have thought after 3 horses escaped the fence would have been a priority. The bucket is a one off, a freak accident. A fourth horse getting out of a field isn't.


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

Clearly, you are not going to accept/admit any responsibility for what happened, I don't know why you would bother posting/asking. The fact is, though, that you were aware that there was a problem. There were THREE previous incidents of this exact thing happening and you were just lucky that none of those incidents resulted in injury. This one, though, did....and it happened because you failed to secure a fence you knew was an issue.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Legally - the Barn Owner is for sure responsible.

It is kind of like putting out a beware of dog sign. Admitting there is an issue means you are fault when the issue causes a problem.

Morally I think you are both at fault. The BO for having a fence that they know is an issue. I mean really, why have two separate turn out areas if you do not actually want the horses to stay separate? And the horse owner for agreeing to board at a facility with a sub-standard fence and then staying there when the BO says it will be fixed and it does not get fixed.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

starlinestables said:


> Well my agreement releases me as well.


 
However - you admitted to the boarder - as well as in writing on this board - that the issue has happened in the past. The attorney we have would have a field day being handed that type of information if she was representing your boarder in a suit.

FYI as a barn owner - sometimes things need to be vented to your buddies via e-mail!


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## luvmyperch (Oct 5, 2009)

Check out some law books, you have at least partial liability for negligence. This wasn't a force of nature that damamged your fence and resulted in an accident shortly afterwards. The fence was like that for some time, three other incidents proved that horses can and will get through it. I assume you arrange the horses' turnout schedules and placement, as well as physically turn them out yourself? As the owner of the property and manager of the horses' care, do the right thing and talk to your boarder about a win/win solution that will make everyone happy. These are the types of things that give BOs a bad reputation in their area.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

luvmyperch said:


> As the owner of the property and manager of the horses' care, do the right thing and talk to your boarder about a win/win solution that will make everyone happy. These are the types of things that give BOs a bad reputation in their area.


And also, they are the type of thing that gives a BO a GOOD reputation. If you handle it well and offer to pay you will be looked at favorably.


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## luvmyperch (Oct 5, 2009)

Alwaysbehind said:


> And also, they are the type of thing that gives a BO a GOOD reputation. If you handle it well and offer to pay you will be looked at favorably.


Excellent point!


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## lillie (Oct 26, 2009)

yes i agree with others, and espec. with that last 2 posts. you can be sure other boarders are talking about the incident, and these sort of things snowball, when people start to think it could be their horse that gets injured next. i dont know american law, but i do think that if you are taking money from people to board thier horses, you have a responsibility to do as much as you can to keep them safe, and that ultimately, it will prove far less trouble for you and keep your boarders happy, rather than have them starting to think they should move thier horses elsewhere, before they sustain an injury/ vets bill. i think you should pay all of the bill, and get that fencing section sorted out asap. and then just put it down to experience


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

I agree with Lillie since if she decides to sue then you could be facing a lot more costs such as your legal fees, her legal fees if you lose, vets bills, aggravation. Plus you could lose boarders.


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## starlinestables (Nov 24, 2008)

If a BO has barbed wire and warns the potential boarder they're not admitting fault. They are presenting ALL the information to the potential boarder so that they can make an educated decision "board your horse here for $50 and risk getting caught up in barbwire or pay $300 at another place".

It's kind of like warnings on toys or chemicals... warning someone doesn't assume responsibility.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

mls said:


> I'm a BO. I also have horses in every turn out with boarders horses. Yes, fence boards get kicked out, etc. However - a section of fence where horses can get into the neighboring herd? Nope. I assume you divide as we do - horses that should get along with each other.
> 
> *You had THREE lucky incidents. IMHO - the section of fence was this accident waiting to happen. The fact that you acknowledged it to this boarder - yikes.*





mls said:


> However - you admitted to the boarder - as well as in writing on this board - that the issue has happened in the past. The attorney we have would have a field day being handed that type of information if she was representing your boarder in a suit.
> 
> *FYI as a barn owner - sometimes things need to be vented to your buddies via e-mail!*


Agreed and agreed.

To the OP - you asked for advice and in my humble opinion, got some really good helpful responses. The bottom line is that this boarder's horse got hurt because of a pre-existing condition of your fence line that is supposed to keep horses in and safe. You have admitted not only to us but to your boarder that this has happened before - attorneys would have a hay day with that. 
I believe that the gracious thing to do is to offer to pay at least half of the vet bill. 
I would also agree wholeheartedly with MLS in saying that as a BO, there are some things that you don't want to rant about on a public forum.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Why exactly did you ask for opinions if you are going to tell us all that you do not agree with us?

I am not lawyer and do not play one on TV or on internet BBs. But I have to agree with the people that say you are legally responsible.


But the big picture here is, do you want the horse world in your area talking about what you did not do or what you did do?

You know as well as the rest of us that they will be talking. Why not have them talking about what a great BO you are and how you offered to pay at least a portion of these vet bills?


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

starlinestables said:


> We also told her it was on our to-do list but wasn't a high priority.
> 
> 
> > A lawyer would argue that she was waiting for you to fix that's why she stayed instead of moving. It would be argued as neglience on your part as this horse is the fourth one to do so but she was the one to get hurt. If it was me I would definitely be thinking about sueing as I'd be furious that a fence you knew wasn't ideal and had said it was on your to do list had been left so my horse had managed to escape and get hurt since you are the BO and I'd expect you to look after the fences to make sure they were as escape proof as possible.


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## starlinestables (Nov 24, 2008)

I think you missed the part where I told her it would be another month or two. She has only been here 3 weeks.

I also bought the $200 roll of wire today and will fix it this week. The reason it has not been a big priority is because they have access to each other anyway. This injury could've happend even if the fence was completely finished. I polled my boarders and asked what they would rather have first... arena lights and a bathroom was top priority on their list. 

The reason I posted it on a BB is because I do take other peoples opinions into consideration whether I agree with them or not. I'm not afraid of getting sued...


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

starlinestables said:


> If a BO has barbed wire and warns the potential boarder they're not admitting fault. They are presenting ALL the information to the potential boarder so that they can make an educated decision "board your horse here for $50 and risk getting caught up in barbwire or pay $300 at another place".
> 
> It's kind of like warnings on toys or chemicals... warning someone doesn't assume responsibility.


I'm not sure about that only because I had a dog that I knew had the POTENTIAL to bite because she had exhibited signs. I bought a beware of dog sign and was told by the animal control officer that lived near me that by posting that sign, I was admitting that I knew my dog was a potential threat. (I ended up giving the dog to my brother because at the time I was in a townhouse and around far too many people to have a dangerous dog.)

I would think that if you had a fence problem and told a boarder you were aware of it... then you would be admitting guilt. As for the warnings on toys... people sue and people win......


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## luvmyperch (Oct 5, 2009)

I wouldn't be polling my boarders as to where the money goes on my farm. Of course boarders will want more "comfort" items. You are the responsible party for the property. The things that need to get done aren't always the things that are fun, make life easier, or what people feel like spending money on.

Do you mind if I ask how old the horse's owner is? Often, young girls that board their horses at a barn don't know enough and depend on the BOs recommendations. It is their parents who are legally in a contract with you, and usually know less about horses than their children. They rely on you to have the knowledge and experience to ensure their horse's safety.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

farmpony84 said:


> I'm not sure about that only because I had a dog that I knew had the POTENTIAL to bite because she had exhibited signs. I bought a beware of dog sign and was told by the animal control officer that lived near me that by posting that sign, I was admitting that I knew my dog was a potential threat. (I ended up giving the dog to my brother because at the time I was in a townhouse and around far too many people to have a dangerous dog.)
> 
> I would think that if you had a fence problem and told a boarder you were aware of it... then you would be admitting guilt. *As for the warnings on toys... people sue and people win......*


*is daydreaming of all the stuff she could buy if she were stupid and took Starbucks to court for failing to warn her that her coffee is hot*


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

If it had happened once you'd fixed the fence then it would have been classed as a one off. It happened before and now a horse has got hurt because YOU didn't fix the fence. Like it has been said there are warnings on toys yet companies still pay out a lot of money in lawsuits.


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## luvmyperch (Oct 5, 2009)

Let's say car company X makes a car for $20,000. Car company Y makes a car for $5,000. Car company Y knows that its seatbelts and air bags are faulty. They tell people this when the buy the car. Someone gets into an accident and sues for injuries. You can bet that car company Y is still responsible for the liability, even though they may aruge that the buyer could have paid more for a car from company X with working seatbelts and air bags.

I really don't mean to be rude, but your stand on this issue sounds a bit like a slum landlord.


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## starlinestables (Nov 24, 2008)

The boarder is an adult probably late 30's. Very sweet lady with 2 horses the arab mare and her 14 month old warmblood cross.

My facility compared to others in my price range are nice.. which is why when she had to move from the palace of a barn she came from, she chose mine over even the nicer $800 month barns. I do listen to boarder concerns and I do like to get their input. Yes I put safety first but I honestly didn't see it as a safety hazard.

I find it so ridiculous what people sue for these days! Like my corner feeders... they are marketed for use in horse stalls. I also knew that they are plastic and could be sharp if it broke but a very small chance. I wouldn't dream of sueing them for my stupidity. Its kind of like birth control they WARN you that its only 99.9% effective.... that .01 percent is now napping in his crib. ) UH oh! Better call the lawyer!


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

How is it not a safety hazard? What if one of the bigger horses tried it and got stuck then thrashed and hurt themself? Obviously it was a safety hazard as this horse has been injured thanks to you not fixing it. The other three times you were very lucky, I would have thought that if you were responsible then you would have got it fixed the first time it happened.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

luvmyperch said:


> Let's say car company X makes a car for $20,000. Car company Y makes a car for $5,000. Car company Y knows that its seatbelts and air bags are faulty. They tell people this when the buy the car. Someone gets into an accident and sues for injuries. You can bet that car company Y is still responsible for the liability, even though they may aruge that the buyer could have paid more for a car from company X with working seatbelts and air bags.


Bingo.


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## luvmyperch (Oct 5, 2009)

It's the difference between an honest accident and knowledge of a potentially dangerous situation that creates negligence. A rational person would have known in this situation that the fence is a hazard. Boarders typically don't chose a facility because of nice amenities. They chose a facility because they feel as though their horse will be safe and well cared for, nice amenties are secondary. Boarders put a tremendous amount of trust in their BO. That's what they are paying for! It really saddens me that a BO would jeopardize that relationship with her clients.


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## starlinestables (Nov 24, 2008)

My amenities are SAFE. My pipe and no climb fencing is probably the safest fence you can possibly have for horses and its less than a year old.. My pastures are clean and well groomed, the few trees that are in my pastures are trimmed very high, the gates have rubber platforms so that you don't have to step in mud when your leading your horse through the gate. 

The 40 ft section divides two pastures and is a pipe top rail that is 4 1/2 ft off the ground. I really don't think a horse could get stuck.. trust me I've seen a 17.1 hh gelding try it and he just backed up and went off to graze. 2 of the three horses that went under were 14.2 (if that) arabs that literally walked on their knees to get under it. The other horse was a little pony that always gets picked on wherever we put her so she could go under to get away from the others as she pleased and worked out well.

Her arab mare was being annoyed to death by her baby. The baby kept pawing and chewing and jumping on her and she would run him off and he would just keep on coming so she crawled under.. I watched the whole thing. She trotted to the middle of the pasture and started grazing so I left her there. After about 20 minutes she walked to the water trough where the other mare was and the other mare kicked her ***!


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

Why didn't you put her back in her field? She's in a field with new horses, you saw it and you left her there and now look what happened. All I can say is you should step and offer to pay for at least half the vet bills as it wouldn't have happened if you had fixed the fence. Then hope she doesn't decide to sue and know someone on here who's watching this discussion because you've admitted to knowing there was a problem, you admitted you needed to do something, you also just admitted you saw it happened so it could have been prevented.


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## starlinestables (Nov 24, 2008)

I didn't put her back because clearly the other horse was annoying and her and biting her. I left her in that pasture because they had met through the fence plenty of times and they have a stall right next to each other.


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

But it could be argued that if you had put her back then this accident wouldn't have happened, if you had fixed the fence it wouldn't have happened. You asked who would be liable and in my opinion it's you as the BO. It would be cheaper and better PR if you offered to pay half the costs now as if that happened on the yard I was on I would have been happier knowing that the BO had stepped up and said "I'm sorry, I'm getting it fixed tomorrow and I want to cover half the costs for your mare."


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## starlinestables (Nov 24, 2008)

The injury isn't that bad.. the vet said he wouldn't even stitch it that it was the best possible place to get kicked and just gave her antibiotics.

I called the vet immediately and I am not charging her for bute or anything like that. I feel that by fixing the fence sooner rather than later, I'm doing what I can to remedy the situation and being fair. She knew the situation and decided to take that risk so I feel the vet bill is her responsibility.

Just like if a horse slides into my fence and screws up the wire and I have to replace $400 worth of fencing... I just do it. To me that is the RISK I take when having horses on my property.


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

Well that's your decision and I can't change it but I think you're wrong. It seems kind of a hollow gesture fixing the fence after the injury has happened, it should have been fixed before.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

OK, I think all the arguments and suggestions have been made and the thread is heading down hill so it's time to close it.


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