# Confusing papers, is she a paint? -pics-



## MisssMarie (Jan 31, 2012)

She could be a stock paint. My aunt has a mare she bred herself as a paint, she looks just like that. (I'll try to post a pic later) but she's a registered paint, just a stock or solid paint  Her mare is registered 
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## JadenAndGagesMom (Apr 27, 2012)

And now I just noticed on some of her vet papers from vaccines etc, it says "Breed- Quarter Horse" Could this be any more confusing? Thank you for replying, perhaps she is just a solid paint!


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## MisssMarie (Jan 31, 2012)

Well, people do cross QHs and Paints often. However, I know my aunts horse, Brandy, is constantly mistaken for a Quarter horse
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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

What "papers" are you talking about? If she's registered with an association/registry, there should be something on there that says what they are. APHA, AQHA, Pinto etc.

By chance, can you scan the papers and post pictures so we can see what your talking about?


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## lilruffian (Jun 28, 2010)

Paint horses are a mixture of Quarter Horses and Thoroughbreds so its easy to get ones that look more QHish or TBish.
As for the mare above, she is probably a solid Paint. She certainly looks like one, judging my her facial and leg markings.


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## MisssMarie (Jan 31, 2012)

Here is a picture of Brandy, my aunts stock paint, born from a flashy mom and dad:


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## JadenAndGagesMom (Apr 27, 2012)

Taking pics now. Thanks for your help!


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## JadenAndGagesMom (Apr 27, 2012)

Does anyone know what FJF stands for before her name? I guess she is just a QHish looking paint!


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Those are APHA looking papers, esp the pic, as thats were the APHA puts the pic of the horse. And it says breeding stock, she's a solid paint. Those paper are missing things though......odd.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

FJF in front her name is part of her name, more than likely Ranch name initials. My horse is RDR Independence Day which RDR stands for Rocking D Ranch.


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## JadenAndGagesMom (Apr 27, 2012)

APHA is Paint Registration right? This has helped me so much!!


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## FreeDestiny (Jul 3, 2011)

FJF could be the owners initials...Frankie J Fol-something...
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## busysmurf (Feb 16, 2012)

She's a breeding stock paint, which means she doesn't have the "splashy" white markings, but she carries the genes that create them. APHA horses must be of stock type breeding (i.e. QH type). If she were any other type (TWH, MFT, etc) she couldn't be registered w/ APHA. As for the "FJF" it's part of her name, her breeders probably wanted someone's / someplaces initials in her name.
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## JadenAndGagesMom (Apr 27, 2012)

I am so excited to finally have figured this out! Breeding stock paint. Which means she looks more like her QH background, not spotted. I am learning so much. It's overwhelming at first, when you just get started, theres so much info, so much I don't know.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Now you need to transfer her registration into your name. The seller has signed the transfer papers?


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## JadenAndGagesMom (Apr 27, 2012)

I have the equine bill of sale with my name on it. Is that the right thing? What would be the next step? Thanks for clearing up the FJF thing. Would I be able to change her name or is that forever? I still want her name to be Anna but the rest is kinda... eh. Also, the western pleasure and the racking mare thing (not on the papers) are just skills she has?


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

Those papers she is registered with APHA as a breeding stock paint. APHA has now changed the term Breeding Stock to Solid paint bred{SPB}. Looking at that mare though she has enough qualifying white on legs for regular registry as a sorrel Overo.


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## JadenAndGagesMom (Apr 27, 2012)

Her sire is sorrel overo! And both paternal grandparents! But that would be considered her color right? That is still a paint. As it is right now she is sorrel solid paint?


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

The whole "racking mare" thing and "natural gait" confuse me. Paints do not naturally gait, and racking is most definitely a natural gait. Paints, to be registered as APHA (at least to my understanding), can only have paint, QH or TB in their ancestry. None of those breeds are naturally gaited. 

Have you ridden her yet? Have you seen her rack or do any gait other than the standard walk/trot/canter/gallop?


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## JadenAndGagesMom (Apr 27, 2012)

I have ridden her over the weekend, from what I have learned so far, its a regular gait. Its very smooth and not bouncy in trot, kind of rocky sway. But not gaited like I have seen where they pick up their feet really high in front. I haven't learned what racking is, I'm about to research that. She does not hold her head high either she keeps it low.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Sure you can change her name, costs a bunch of money & American Paint Horse Association has to approve it (APHA). You need signed transfer papers (signed by owners listed on those papers) for APHA with that mares name on it, not a bill of sale. I think a name change is $250, that was ages ago though. Costs about $75 to transfer into your name & you get a year membership into the APHA club, cheaper than paying non member fee and transferring.


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

Right now the white on her right hind leg, if it extends 2 inches above the knee, you could petition to have her registered as an overo, and not a SPB. According to the new rules and guidelines, she is technically not solid. But you would have to ask APHA if you can change it. I have no idea, or if it even matters to you.


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## JadenAndGagesMom (Apr 27, 2012)

Aha! I don't know if it matters to me either! I don't even know what I'm doing. Ack. I think both hind legs have white above the knee, at least in front. And hmm, I shall have to figure out how to contact the original breeder, I think he lives out of state. This is complicated stuff!


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## ThirteenAcres (Apr 27, 2012)

Look on the back of the papers. It will have a space for the previous owner to have signed, allowing transfer of the papers into your name. When you go to APHA, you'll have to buy a yearly-lifetime membership (based on your preference) and then pay for a transfer. I don't know about APHA, but AQHA DOES allow name changes as long as the horse has never been evented in its current name. 

She's lovely. I love a solid paint (or not so solid if she can be changed) haha. You can go to the APHA website and they should have printable files to request a change of ownership and any corrections you want. It will tell you how much and what to send in with the papers. 

Hope that helps. =)


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## ThirteenAcres (Apr 27, 2012)

Also, those are some nice names on her papers. I'm curious about the "Aggies" one. I wonder if that was one of the Texas A&M horses. Hmmm. And always like to see the Sugar Bars and Leos!


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## JadenAndGagesMom (Apr 27, 2012)

Poo. Theres nothing on the back of the paper. I'm gonna download the pdf's from the website and see what I can do tomorrow. The BO is the one I bought her from. She bought her when she was a baby, sold her, and bought her back. She should know what I need to do. Thank you so much for your help!


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## JadenAndGagesMom (Apr 27, 2012)

I have NO idea about any of these names. I am so new to this world!!!


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## ThirteenAcres (Apr 27, 2012)

Nothing as in no signature, or nothing as in it is completely blank? Are the spaces still there to be signed? 

And yes. If they sent in the papers, they are probably very familiar with how to transfer. They should have done it to begin with. =( They probably just forgot.


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## JadenAndGagesMom (Apr 27, 2012)

Completely blank, no lines, words, or pictures. Just blank. Hehehe.


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## ThirteenAcres (Apr 27, 2012)

All Breed Pedigree Query is a great resource on seaching for bloodlines and horse info. Your horse probably won't show up, but start as close as her parents. The horses with the little "i" in a bubble have history info if you scroll over it. And then a lot also have pictures if you scroll over the little picture frame.

But those are some really nice QH foundations. And I saw a cutting horse on the sire side. But I didn't look too deep into it. It is really fun to look them up though!


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## ThirteenAcres (Apr 27, 2012)

Hmmm. Those might not be an original copy. Maybe that explains why some things are missing? Anyone want to back me up on that some of the writing may not photocopy for copying protection?

They SHOULD have writing and lines on the back for ownership transfer.


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## JadenAndGagesMom (Apr 27, 2012)

It does say something on the front about having a watermark. There is a watermark there. On the bottom it says to transfer the animal described above, complete the transfer on the reverse side. This is weeeeird!


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

When I get home I will look at a couple of my APHA papers, I still think something is missing but I could be wrong. But anyways, she is a solid paint.


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## JadenAndGagesMom (Apr 27, 2012)

On that site you gave me it says that her grandparents are QH's  And it goes back really far! How neat!!!!


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## Annanoel (Mar 29, 2011)

Okay I looked at my papers and to me yours look odd, no offense. IMHO I think they are a photo copy. Mine are on a heavier paper, they have no white border and the back is printed as well. They have the watermark horse to, a security thing you can see on both sides. This is standard for the APHA now unless they are the older version of the papers I believe. The transfer form is what should be on the back you fill it out, and the old owner has a part to fill out to. You send it in with the fees and then they send you papers in your name.

This is directly from their website. If she only signed a bill of sale she needs to sign a transfer form from their website. It should have been on the back. You also NEED the ORIGINAL papers to have her transferred to your name. The link below is for the transfer form, but like I said if those are a copy you need the original papers to have your horse transferred.

http://www.apha.com/forms/PDFFiles/05TransferReport.pdf

"It is the buyer's responsibility to submit the original certificate of registration and a properly completed and signed transfer report. On a transfer form, the Association shall recognize the signature of any one of the joint owners of an animal if such owner is named on the horse's current registration certificate."

It's confusing for your first time, I've gone through it to but it gets easier.


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

Personally, seeing your document would be a big red flag for me. FWIW, anyone can put anything on the site you went to. One of mine is there and everything is correct, but I do believe there is no "verification" as to what info is there. Below is a link to what an APHA reg. cert. should look like. Yours looks like a color photo copy that someone has inserted info on and/or scanned and printed out on their computer. I'd bet money the actual (real) papers on this horse are owned by someone other than who you bought the horse from. She is also not a "racking mare" - if those are her parents, grandparents, etc. then she has no gait in her. 

example of a real APHA reg. cert.
Paint Horse, Decorated Tuff's pedigree now in training at Peavine Creek Farm in Ringgold, Georgia just outside of Chattanooga, Tennessee


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

That's what it's missing, the APHA logo! Those are copies. Don't worry though, it's still got numbers on it, but the last registered owner listed on those papers better be the ones that sold you the horse. If not, they skipped owners, that gets pricey and you have to track down people to get them to sign, and pay for replacement papers. Phone up the APHA and ask them what you should do.


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

JadenAndGagesMom said:


> Poo. Theres nothing on the back of the paper. I'm gonna download the pdf's from the website and see what I can do tomorrow. The BO is the one I bought her from. She bought her when she was a baby, sold her, and bought her back. She should know what I need to do. Thank you so much for your help!


…and there should be a line drawing of a horse on the back that is marked to match her …the back should not be blank.


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## CCH (Jan 23, 2011)

OK I have APHA plus access and I looked this horse up. I don't see huge cause for concern other than the "papers" you were given are clearly a color photo copy & not original. The photo matches, the pedigree matches and she has only had the one owner. "Original papers" do not have a white border; they are printed on a heavier, better quality paper, and the backside has a transfer form on it.

This is what you need to do
1. Get the original papers from the seller
2. Have the seller sign a transfer form (here is the link http://www.apha.com/forms/PDFFiles/05TransferReport.pdf)
3. Take 4 clear photographs (APHA will want these to update their records)
4. mail the papers and transfer form to APHA with $65 ($40 for membership dues and $15 for the transfer fee) you can call them and email your photos.

To answer some other questions:
1. This horse is probably eligible for a name change because she has no offspring & I don't see where she has been entered in *APHA approved shows* I don't recommend this as it will cost you $100 (in addition to the membership and transfer fees)

2. She is registered as a Solid Bred Paint (SBP) which used to be breeding stock. It is common for horses born prior to 2006 and those that haven't changed hands after 2006 to have the old style of papers. Her hind leg white is now enough to qualify for Regular Registry papers. Applying for RR papers will cost a non-refundable $40 plus another~$40 for the registration fee if it is approved. If you don't plan to show, you don't need to do this.


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## ThirteenAcres (Apr 27, 2012)

Yay for getting to the bottom of things!


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2012)

Does the horse in the picture have a white stock in front???

On the papers.


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## Sahara (Jul 23, 2010)

The mare that the OP posted pictures of doesn't match the foal on the registration papers. Look at the stockings on the front legs. Not the same horse. Those papers are meaningless.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Hopefully it's just light from the camera when she took the picture of her holding the papers. But if papers show the foal having socks in front, that's not the same horse.
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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

waresbear said:


> Those paper are missing things though......odd.


What are they missing?


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Sahara said:


> The mare that the OP posted pictures of doesn't match the foal on the registration papers. Look at the stockings on the front legs. Not the same horse. Those papers are meaningless.


The mare is 'frosted' on her front legs. As a foal they appeared more white.


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## PaintHorseMares (Apr 19, 2008)

mls said:


> What are they missing?


The copy is cut off at the top where the certificate says "American Paint Horse Association".


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

The APHA logo & above the heading "Certificate of Registration" it should say American Paint Horse Association. I am looking at 2 sets of APHA papers right now, one issued 1994 & another one in 2000, both read this.
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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Like CCH said, the "papers" the OP has is a colored photocopy of the actual papers, hence the lack of transfer information on the back. You can see that in the pictures she's posted.


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## JadenAndGagesMom (Apr 27, 2012)

Yall have been so helpful to me! I reckon I got a copy of the papers. Luckily, I am never going to show her, event her, or sell her. I'm gonna ask previous owner soon though about these papers. And now I know what to do and look for when I buy another horse in the future.  thanks!!
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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

Is this the people you bought Anna from?

Sallyes Horses

scroll down to Anna


If this is the horse you bought, then the photo of the horse on the site is NOT the horse you bought. The photo at the site does not have white stockings past the hocks…your horse does. However, I do believe the information on the papers IS Anna, but if CCH's info is correct, and there is only one owner listed, it has to be the breeder (the cert. says that the breeder owned both mare and stallion) therefore owning the foal outright. The number one reason that papers do not get transferred on a filly or a stallion is non-payment - because the foals resulting from any breeding cannot be registered without a breeder's report and verification that the parents are who they are supposed to be.

There's just something fishy here and I can't put my finger on it...


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## CCH (Jan 23, 2011)

When you look at apha's photo on the plus website, you can see where the bright sunlight is making the light (sabino-ish marking) part of her front cannon look white. The copying of the papers probably made it look like the foal has a white sock.

I don't see "fraud" here, just poor record keeping by the seller.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

CCH…I'm not talking about the photo on the reg. papers…I'm talking about the photo at the site where Anna was listed…THAT horse only has white to mid-cannon…THAT is the horse she supposedly bought. It is not the horse that the papers belong to, but it is the horse listed for sale (that was sold to the OP). The papers match the horse "Anna" that the OP HAS - but not the horse that was listed for sale as "Anna". Two different horses...


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

The horse on the sale site has two white front "socks", the horse that the OP has posted has only one front sock, plus the white on the hindquarters on the sale ad has short white hind socks, the horse the OP posted has big white over the hock socks. 
Anna on the sale site, is not Anna that the OP is showing.


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## redpony (Apr 17, 2012)

The horse the OP posted pics of and the horse listed as Anna on the site are definately NOT the same horse! If you look at where the blaze ties into the nostril, they do not match. I understand that the OP may not care if she is actually reg. but it seems that there is some shady dealings going on by this seller (or at least a very bad mix up) And honestly, I think the foal on the reg. papers may be a totally different horse altogether. *sigh*


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

Those APHA papers are not the original paperwork. Where are her REAL papers? I'd be contacting the previous owners and demanding they give me the real thing. The real paperwork, is really thick paper. Not computer paper. And it won't have a white outline all the way around the edge. The edges are blue.

Without the original paperwork, you cannot get that horse registered in your name. The back of the papers has a bunch of stuff on there for signing of the horse to you, and area's where you need to fill in your information as the new owner.

If they don't have the original, you'll need to contact whoever was the LAST person to "own" her and get them to get a replacement of the paperwork, and then sign off the papers and send them to you. That is what I had to do with my mare. It took me forever to get her paperwork but I finally have it. 

I'm going to scan my mare's papers in so you can see what the differences are...


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

These are my girls APHA papers...Front and Back. Like I said before too, the papers are really thick. It's not like regular computer paper. More like construction paper...


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## CCH (Jan 23, 2011)

Horse poor - I'm on my phone and didn't see your post with the link. Clicked it, but haven't been able to see what you mean because it's taking forever to load. It was super late last night when I checked APHA for the OP.

So does everyone agree that the "copy of the papers" is for the horse that the OP has? I can screen shot the Plus page later tonight or tomorrow if needed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

CCH said:


> Horse poor - I'm on my phone and didn't see your post with the link. Clicked it, but haven't been able to see what you mean because it's taking forever to load. It was super late last night when I checked APHA for the OP.
> 
> So does everyone agree that the "copy of the papers" is for the horse that the OP has? I can screen shot the Plus page later tonight or tomorrow if needed.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I do think that the filly on the papers is the mare in the photos. If you look at the facial marking, especially hear her muzzle/lips, you can see the similarities.

APHA holds on record photos of front, back and both sides incase there is fraud. Unfortunately, without the original paperwork, I don't know if they would release that type of information.

Too bad APHA doesn't require DNA verification. Otherwise sending mane hairs in would give the most accurate answer...


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## JadenAndGagesMom (Apr 27, 2012)

That is where I bought her from, maybe there are 2 Anna's because a lot of the info in the site is incorrect. She's 10, not 12. And there's no racking or gait or anything. I saw that on sallyes site after I bought her. The paper I have is thick blue paper and there's a watermark of a horse on the front, the back is blank so I'm thinking it's a copy. However im not too terribly upset because the horse I have, I have the bill of sale and I love her  but I have learned so much!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

As long as you love her, and have no plans to breed or show her,and you would have bought her whether there were papers or not, then there is nothing to worry about.... Now if her selling price was based on the registration papers, then you might have a complaint..
I have had registered horses all my life and once the papers are in my name, they are put away and I never look at them.... If I like the horse, don't plan to breed or show, then I could care less about papers, unless I plan on selling a horse.


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

JadenAndGagesMom said:


> That is where I bought her from, maybe there are 2 Anna's because a lot of the info in the site is incorrect. She's 10, not 12. And there's no racking or gait or anything. I saw that on sallyes site after I bought her. The paper I have is thick blue paper and there's a watermark of a horse on the front, the back is blank so I'm thinking it's a copy. However im not too terribly upset because the horse I have, I have the bill of sale and I love her  but I have learned so much!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But, did you pay for a "registered horse" Because if you did, and you got a horse that isn't registered with some phony paperwork, that's fraud. Many people change more for a registered horse. Say you paid $2000 for her with papers. But without papers, she might only be worth $1000, and then, you got duped... :evil: That's false advertising and can be taken to court if you were to proceed that course. Some people would, others don't care.

You have a copy. The back of the paperwork will look like like the papers I posted, and there will be no white edge around the blue on the front page.

You can't ride papers, but I'd still be horribly ****ed and still be contacting the previous owner to get it straightened out. And if she says "Oh I gave you the paperwork" You can call BS on her because now you know what real papers should look like and there is no section to transfer ownership. If she's shady, you'll never hear from her again...Nor will you get her real papers. Unless you contact APHA and try to get them to work with you somehow to figure it out...


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## JadenAndGagesMom (Apr 27, 2012)

I agree with you totally. It isn't right what happened. I got taken advantage of because of my lack of knowledge, and that won't happen again. I don't know what she's worth, I paid 1,000 for her, she's so well trained and not green at all. She doesn't have behavior issues or health issues- she saw the vet on Saturday. I think we're ok. I am gonna mention the paperwork to the lady who sold me her, I see her all the time because I board Anna at her place, and see what she says. But like you said, I didn't get the original paperwork.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

It's your call. I'd be concerned that the horse is registered and doesn't have a history. There's always a reason for that - sometimes it's innocent, sometimes not.


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

JadenAndGagesMom said:


> I agree with you totally. It isn't right what happened. I got taken advantage of because of my lack of knowledge, and that won't happen again. I don't know what she's worth, I paid 1,000 for her, she's so well trained and not green at all. She doesn't have behavior issues or health issues- she saw the vet on Saturday. I think we're ok. I am gonna mention the paperwork to the lady who sold me her, I see her all the time because I board Anna at her place, and see what she says. But like you said, I didn't get the original paperwork.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We do live and learn best, don't we? $1000 for a horse you are describing is a good price. I don't think you got gypped on the horse, just the paperwork that your entitled to if those are her actual papers. If they aren't, then why in the world would she give you copies unless she was trying to scam?

Hopefully, it's all a misunderstanding. Let us know what the lady says when you bring up the paperwork...I don't want you to get taken advantage of anymore then you may already have. And the people here will definitely help you out to try and figure out if the lady is full of crap or not. LoL. There's at least one person between all of us that knows the rules to APHA registration... :lol:


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## Delacy (Aug 30, 2011)

Sallye Forrester is a known horse dealer/flipper in our area. She used to run the local Pony Express auction until she got ran out of there for shady horse dealings. She doesn't keep any horse long enough to bother with transferring it into her name and mainly deals with gaited horses- ASBs & TWH. Knowign now that you bought the horse from Sallye, I'd be concerned about the horse being drugged as well as being the horse in question. If you hang around Sallye long enough, you'll find out she has a real high return rate of folks bringing horses back to her that were not as described.


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## JadenAndGagesMom (Apr 27, 2012)

Delacy said:


> Sallye Forrester is a known horse dealer/flipper in our area. She used to run the local Pony Express auction until she got ran out of there for shady horse dealings. She doesn't keep any horse long enough to bother with transferring it into her name and mainly deals with gaited horses- ASBs & TWH. Knowign now that you bought the horse from Sallye, I'd be concerned about the horse being drugged as well as being the horse in question. If you hang around Sallye long enough, you'll find out she has a real high return rate of folks bringing horses back to her that were not as described.



Crap. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Doesn't mean your horse was drugged or not registered. But if you can't get her papers, you still love the horse, and don't plan on breeding her or showing her in breed showsl, so no harm really. By the way, if she was drugged, they would have long since worn off.


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## JadenAndGagesMom (Apr 27, 2012)

Thanks waresbear. I was feeling a little discouraged but I do love her and she's been nothing but great so far. It's been a little over a week. She lives at Sallyes though, she seems to really care. -sigh-
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

also odd, is the pic of the mare as a weanling shows her with a full stocking on front.. the pics of your now older mare.. do not show this. APHA has american paint horse association typed on the papers.. My guess would be that these are not 'real'.


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## Alaskadraft (May 28, 2009)

nope not the same horse.. a horse don't loose high whites when they mature. The papers are PDF form that you email to yourself or others when your making a sale usually to show pedigree.. You don't know really what you have as far a breed goes... 

I would show APHA what happened and that your were defrauded by this woman and then take the case to the Attorney Generals office. Enough complaints they can file for fraud and you might get your money Back PLUS keep the horse...I would also tell Frank his papers are being used for this horse fraudulantly so he can prosecute as well..I have his address from the APHA sight that I could send you. 

I hate people that do this.. 

AD


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## Alaskadraft (May 28, 2009)

Oh and I would also check to make sure the VETS drawing of markings on the cogins paper matches your girls markings as well.. it might not be her cogins papers either.. get her checked asap to be sure.

AD


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## Delacy (Aug 30, 2011)

waresbear said:


> Doesn't mean your horse was drugged or not registered. But if you can't get her papers, you still love the horse, and don't plan on breeding her or showing her in breed showsl, so no harm really. By the way, if she was drugged, they would have long since worn off.


 No harm in misrepresenting a horse? If you buy a registered horse, that is exactly what you should get, regardless of if you plan to show or breed. YOu should also get the horse that is represented, not a horse that may or may not be said horse. I am sorry, but $1000 for an unregistered horse in this economy is plain suicidal, especially when nice broke papered horses are being given away left and right.

And since the horse is still living in Sallye's barn, I don't guess it'd be all that hard to keep the horse drugged up until the new owner is hopelessly in love with the horse, the usual 30 trial period is over, and all of the sudden the new owner is stuck with a mare that isn't quite as sweet as she once was.


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## BarrelRacer23 (Aug 17, 2011)

I see 3 different horses and the whole racking thing is odd. It says Anna on the site is a racking horse, yet your mare is supposedly a Paint. I think I would be asking some questions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CCH (Jan 23, 2011)

JadenAndGagesMom said:


>












Here is the photo from the APHA website. I adjusted the brightness/contrast to help you see the leg markings. The lip marking and spot in the nostril match, the real legs appear to match. The right front you can see has a low pastern sock. The left front is a little more difficult, but you can see where it is white up to the pastern and then has some "peachy" hair. Remember this is a weanling/yearling photo and their coats are different. It also looks like the filly has winter hair which further compounds ID. You can see from OP's photo though that the mare has a tendency to have lighter sorrel on her leg before the white.

In my opinion, the horse OP bought is the horse on the papers. I have no idea what's going on with the website - it's a mess. I don't disagree that the seller is a horse trader, but it is common for "brokers" to have the horse for sale on transfer papers from the owner and to never transfer the horse into their own name. For a $1,000 deal, it makes little fiscal sense to sue the seller or go to the Attorney General (who will NOT do anything for individuals, all they do is keep a record and in certain cases provide letters of legal opinion)

What I suggest is you ask the seller politely (and if at all possible in writing, via email, text, or have another person with you) to provide you with the original papers and a signed transfer by XX day.
She may have them, she may not. As long as you don't physically watch her forge signatures on them, you should be OK. 

If she doesn't have the original papers, then I would contact that Frankie Folsum to try to get them. If you can't, then you need to decide whether it's worth legal action. I don't know the laws in your state, it may be a criminal offense, it may not. Your bill of sale might say "as-is" and that could be a defense for her. That is all putting the cart way before the horse though.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Delacy said:


> No harm in misrepresenting a horse? If you buy a registered horse, that is exactly what you should get, regardless of if you plan to show or breed. YOu should also get the horse that is represented, not a horse that may or may not be said horse. I am sorry, but $1000 for an unregistered horse in this economy is plain suicidal, especially when nice broke papered horses are being given away left and right.
> 
> And since the horse is still living in Sallye's barn, I don't guess it'd be all that hard to keep the horse drugged up until the new owner is hopelessly in love with the horse, the usual 30 trial period is over, and all of the sudden the new owner is stuck with a mare that isn't quite as sweet as she once was.


 No harm done because the OP (from what I could gather, reread this thread 3 times now!), thought she was buying a racking horse. This lady has a gazillon horses on her site for sale or ones that have been sold. The OP tried the horse out, thought hmmmm, not a gaited horse but I still want it, so she bought it. When she bought it, she was given a bill of sale, only thing she really cared about and was given these papers. They are copies of the original, OP looks closer and sees the horse in the ad is not the horse she bought, she never got to try out the horse in the ad because she was shown this horse & this is the horse she wanted. She didn't care if the horse had papers or not. While this is not a good way to do business, it's not like the seller was advertising a registered paint horse, looked like she was advertising a riding horse, the Anna in the ad was either already sold or confused with this horse. The OP got the papers after the sale was done and then was confused because she was looking for the racking part on the papers. I believe if the seller never gave her any papers, she wouldn't have cared.
Now, she does board her horse at the sellers' barn, sure they could keep this horse drugged up everytime she showed up, but I tend to think that's a little far fetched but who know? Stranger things have been done. We will just have to wait to see what the OP says after she posts again when she has spoken to the seller. 
I know I live in BC, Canada, where things are much more expensive, but here, if you pay less than a $1000 for a horse, it's an unbroken, (maybe registered) yearling that might or might not be halter trained. Anything that's sound, reasonably nice, broke and mature is well over a $1000, closer to $2000, if papered, add another $500 & up. Anything under $500 is old, lame, crazy and generally unrideable and being sold for meat.


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## ThirteenAcres (Apr 27, 2012)

I would also be concerned about the coggins paper as well. =( And I would also have a new one drawn and the name changed as soon as possible.

It is a very common practice for auction/sale traders to buy a horse and match papers as much as possible. If the horse was stolen, I wouldn't think she'd be dumb enough to even give you a copy of the paper with the breeder's name visible. Given the benefit of the doubt, perhaps you made your intentions of not caring to breed or show evident, and she simply thought a copy was sufficient for what you wanted of the horse. I agree that she probably goes through too many horses to ever worry about transferring their papers to herself. 

Either way, her intentions don't appear so wholesome. I agree that you should take a friendly approach and test her honesty in the matter by asking for the original copies of the papers. Worst case scenario, I would move your new girl. If she will deceive you about one thing, who knows what else she would do/lie about afterward. =(


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## JadenAndGagesMom (Apr 27, 2012)

I haven't spoken to her yet. I'm timid about confrontation and generally try to avoid it, gonna wait til "the time is right". Pretty much everything waresbear said is true, I don't care about the papers etc. I didn't even know what racking was. I was there when she got her last coggins done, on Saturday (a week ago)I saw the vet draw blood out of her neck. And I saw her get her hooves trimmed. It makes me so nervous and upset to think Anna may be drugged. I really hope this is not the case. She's always in the pasture eating grass or some hay when I arrive. She doesn't come up to me yet but she stands still while I come to her. And I don't have a treat she walks off. Today I cleaned out her hooves really well (without help!) and gave her her first bath (with me). I don't want to have to have a confrontation with Sallye I just want Anna to be healthy and happy and safe.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

With the picture being blown up from CCH, I do agree (still) that that's the same mare. The front left leg as a filly was probably baby hair that still needed to be shed out, but the rest of the markings match up very well. Also if you look at her left leg now, you can see that around the sock, it's a noticeably lighter color up the pastern and ankle, not the rich sorrel that the rest of the leg is.

OP, If I were you, I'd be looking for another place to take your mare to. I'd personally be uncomfortable with keeping my mare at a horse trader's place. For the health of the mare. So many horses go in and out, who knows what Anna could contract from someone new that's brought onto the property.

You love your mare, and that's all that matters at this point. I doubt that she'd continue to drug your mare daily (if she did in the first place) just to keep her calm around you. I don't know how long you are out there, but if it's for a few hours, the drugs would wear off anyways and you'd notice a personality change. I'm going to go out on a limb and say you were one of the lucky ones to get a decent horse from a trader. But I'd also leave it at that, chalk it up as a learning experience and get Anna out of there asap into a real boarding facility and away from someone so full of deceit. And I mean that in the most respectful way.  Truly.


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## greenbryerfarms (Apr 9, 2012)

I had a solid paint, that was papered. don't worry about her not having spots racking is something they do with there front feet... most saddlebreds and tenn walkers can be racking horses.Jessie's Girl - YouTube and No a Western pleasure horse is a type of show event. good horses! Most solid paint horses are Quarter horse breeds. You have breed registries and you have Color registries. Take my MFT (Missouri Fox Trotter) he was papered with the MFT and the champaign(SP) horse asso. but he was also considered a red roan in the MFT papers it gets real confusing! ( no papers on him any more we got him after a family friend passed and sadly the papers were lost.


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

waresbear said:


> Sure you can change her name, costs a bunch of money & American Paint Horse Association has to approve it (APHA). You need signed transfer papers (signed by owners listed on those papers) for APHA with that mares name on it, not a bill of sale. I think a name change is $250, that was ages ago though. Costs about $75 to transfer into your name & you get a year membership into the APHA club, cheaper than paying non member fee and transferring.


AND keep in mind, if she's ever been bred and the foal was registered, you can no longer change her registered name. I ran into that with my APHA mare, whose registered name I did not like, "Coosa's Playgirl". I wanted to change it to "Hoofprints in the Sand", since the people who rescued her named her "Sandie" and I thought that was cute and wanted a name that would go with "Sand" or "Sandy". But when I called APHA to change it, I was informed that she had already had 2 foals, and 1 had already been registered with her name as the dam. So no dice! I still show her on the local circuit as "Hoofprints in the Sand" though, I consider Coosa's Playgirl her slave name :wink:


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## JadenAndGagesMom (Apr 27, 2012)

As far as I KNOW- (which I'm learning isn't a whole lot!) she has never had a foal. It's gonna be way too much trouble to change her name though since I don't even have the right paperwork and I can't even transfer her into my name without drama. It's a big stressful mess! It's what I get for thinking buying the horse would be the easy part.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

Well I would start off by getting original copies of the papers and if the seller doesn't have them, just call the APHA and give them the # on the copy you have, tell them you have a bill of sale showing you recently purchased the horse, and ask them what to do. I'm sure they'd be more than willing to help you out 

Mine was a giant mess as well, in rescuing. Not because her rescuers were disorganized because they weren't, they were AWESOME and very helpful...it was because her previous owner whose horses had been all seized by the SPCA, was being very uncooperative. So I actually had to work with the SPCA, her rescuers, AND the APHA to get it all sorted out! But I wanted to make DARN SURE that I was her legal owner and it was in the books that way, especially since she was from an involuntary seizure.


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

JadenAndGagesMom said:


> As far as I KNOW- (which I'm learning isn't a whole lot!) she has never had a foal. It's gonna be way too much trouble to change her name though since I don't even have the right paperwork and I can't even transfer her into my name without drama. It's a big stressful mess! It's what I get for thinking buying the horse would be the easy part.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You don't know whether she's ever been bred or not. The APHA says she's only had one owner, and you know she's had 4 (the breeder, you, the person you bought her from and the person they sold her to 4 years ago.) Just because the APHA has her as a maiden doesn't mean she's never been bred…it simply means they have no record of it.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

JadenAndGagesMom said:


> Poo. Theres nothing on the back of the paper. I'm gonna download the pdf's from the website and see what I can do tomorrow. The BO is the one I bought her from. She bought her when she was a baby, sold her, and bought her back. She should know what I need to do. Thank you so much for your help!


There is nothing on the back of the papers b/c that is a copy and not the original papers. You need to get her original registration papers from her last owner and have them sign the back to transfer her to you.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> The whole "racking mare" thing and "natural gait" confuse me. Paints do not naturally gait, and racking is most definitely a natural gait. Paints, to be registered as APHA (at least to my understanding), can only have paint, QH or TB in their ancestry. None of those breeds are naturally gaited.
> 
> Have you ridden her yet? Have you seen her rack or do any gait other than the standard walk/trot/canter/gallop?


I was wondering about that too but then I know a LOT of people who mistake and extended trot for racking so I think that perhaps the seller may have been mistaken on this description.


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## megm5441 (Mar 7, 2011)

If you are happy with her, and don't care if you have registration papers, then don't worry about it.

I have had a run in with Sallye myself, it looks like she has moved barns. When I was there, it was sad. She had a palomino Saddlebred, so bad with laminitis that you could tell she hadn't moved in her stall for a long time, she was planning to breed her... :-(

You really should look into moving her to a new barn. A trader/dealers barn always has horses coming in and you don't know what they may be carrying, disease, illness, etc. Strangles is a particularly bad one. Be careful with her! You love your baby, that is the best thing!


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## greenbryerfarms (Apr 9, 2012)

Cinnys Whinny said:


> I was wondering about that too but then I know a LOT of people who mistake and extended trot for racking so I think that perhaps the seller may have been mistaken on this description.


I looked on thesellers page she doesn't evenknow howto explane ahorse properly white mane. and tail itwas. A flaxen mane and tale I have studied horse colorsfor years I know the true diffrence between a paint. And a pinto most people don't but who cares? Just saying someone claiming to haveher experiance should atleast know what. A true white horseis what a grey is what flaxen is!!! Expecialy since she's breeding!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## greenbryerfarms (Apr 9, 2012)

CCH said:


> Here is the photo from the APHA website. I adjusted the brightness/contrast to help you see the leg markings. The lip marking and spot in the nostril match, the real legs appear to match. The right front you can see has a low pastern sock. The left front is a little more difficult, but you can see where it is white up to the pastern and then has some "peachy" hair. Remember this is a weanling/yearling photo and their coats are different. It also looks like the filly has winter hair which further compounds ID. You can see from OP's photo though that the mare has a tendency to have lighter sorrel on her leg before the white.
> 
> In my opinion, the horse OP bought is the horse on the papers. I have no idea what's going on with the website - it's a mess. I don't disagree that the seller is a horse trader, but it is common for "brokers" to have the horse for sale on transfer papers from the owner and to never transfer the horse into their own name. For a $1,000 deal, it makes little fiscal sense to sue the seller or go to the Attorney General (who will NOT do anything for individuals, all they do is keep a record and in certain cases provide letters of legal opinion)
> 
> ...


I just looked atthe black spot of skin. In her vnose on the website that horses nose is pink
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

megm5441 said:


> If you are happy with her, and don't care if you have registration papers, then don't worry about it.
> 
> I have had a run in with Sallye myself, it looks like she has moved barns. When I was there, it was sad. She had a palomino Saddlebred, so bad with laminitis that you could tell she hadn't moved in her stall for a long time, she was planning to breed her... :-(
> 
> You really should look into moving her to a new barn. A trader/dealers barn always has horses coming in and you don't know what they may be carrying, disease, illness, etc. Strangles is a particularly bad one. Be careful with her! You love your baby, that is the best thing!


At the end of the day who cares what a person calls a color. As long as it is a good horse and the horse matches the papers.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

greenbryerfarms said:


> I just looked atthe black spot of skin. In her vnose on the website that horses nose is pink
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This would have more to do with the age of the horse between the 2 pictures. Also the time of year a horse can look a different color. This is why most of the reg. are requiering DNA typing of the horse.


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## JadenAndGagesMom (Apr 27, 2012)

So I'm looking into moving Anna to another barn. There has been 2 incidents while I was there of another horse (2 separate horses) attacking Anna. Who knows what is going in while I am not there? The first time was a gelding trying to mate with her. Then yesterday, there was a crazy new horse in the pasture with her. I tried to get Anna out of the gate and he kicked her in the butt with both hind feet and knocked the hate off its hinges. She requires 30 days notice so as soon as I have secured her in a new place (I've got a good one in mind), I'm going to tell Sallye. Fingers crossed for no drama!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Be prepared to move her before the 30 days is up if you have to.


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## JadenAndGagesMom (Apr 27, 2012)

I'd like to move her before the 30 days honestly. May is paid for but not June. I'm meeting with the new barn today. And I have someone that can transfer her too, I don't have a trailer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## greenbryerfarms (Apr 9, 2012)

nrhareiner said:


> At the end of the day who cares what a person calls a color. As long as it is a good horse and the horse matches the papers.


No one but if they claim to be something there not, you add all the little things up
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

greenbryerfarms said:


> No one but if they claim to be something there not, you add all the little things up
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
It depends on what those things are. Calling a horse a million $$ sire when he is not. Ya big deal. Calling a horse a Bay when he is brown not so much.


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## greenbryerfarms (Apr 9, 2012)

greenbryerfarms said:


> No one but if they claim to be something there not, you add all the little things up
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I would def care if say I was looking for a blackhorse and a lady from another state claims to haven the exact horse iget there and he's dark brown, or a palamino that's actualy a sorrel with a flaxen mane and tail... Iwant the horse imtold imgoingto see not a diffrent horse and say oh well its a nice horse I couldget that 5 miles downthe road
Educate yourself ifthey say its a paintthat racks andthe papers say. Apha it doesn't rack, if ithappens to rack andlooks like a paintits a spotted walker, bigdiffrence there too
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## greenbryerfarms (Apr 9, 2012)

nrhareiner said:


> It depends on what those things are. Calling a horse a million $$ sire when he is not. Ya big deal. Calling a horse a Bay when he is brown not so much.


Isuppose it varries from person to person and what your wanting, either way I hope op is happy with the horse for years to come
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

greenbryerfarms said:


> I would def care if say I was looking for a blackhorse and a lady from another state claims to haven the exact horse iget there and he's dark brown, or a palamino that's actualy a sorrel with a flaxen mane and tail... Iwant the horse imtold imgoingto see not a diffrent horse and say oh well its a nice horse I couldget that 5 miles downthe road
> Educate yourself ifthey say its a paintthat racks andthe papers say. Apha it doesn't rack, if ithappens to rack andlooks like a paintits a spotted walker, bigdiffrence there too
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Then that is YOU not doing YOUR home work not them. If you are going to travel to look at a horse and you did not ask for pictures and a video first then that is on you not them. There are a lot of brown horses who look black and unless then test the horse there is no real way to know. Same with a Pally. I have seen some pallys who look sorrel and vis versa. 

I have also seen some QH and Paints that when you push them fast enough will start to rack in a way. I own one. Does not mean he is not a QH as he is. It is just the way he moves when you push in very fast in a trot.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

greenbryerfarms said:


> Isuppose it varries from person to person and what your wanting, either way I hope op is happy with the horse for years to come
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
It sounds like she is and from the pictures posted and the picture on the copy of the horses papers she has what she should have. 

As the end of the day the color of a horse does not make the horse. It does not change how good a horse is or how good the horse works. So I could and I would bet most others would say the same thing. I could care less what color the horse is.

Ex. My one mare was Reg with AQHA as a Red Dun. I can see why she as a young horse would have been reg that way. I got her as a 2yo and you could see she was not a red dun but a dun. Could care less what color she was. She is a very well bred horse with a lot of athletic ability and has proven herself in the show pen and now in the breed shed. She could have been purple for all I care.


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## rob (Aug 8, 2011)

the fjf before her name is the breeders and original owners initials.frankie j.folsom


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## greenbryerfarms (Apr 9, 2012)

nrhareiner said:


> It sounds like she is and from the pictures posted and the picture on the copy of the horses papers she has what she should have.
> 
> As the end of the day the color of a horse does not make the horse. It does not change how good a horse is or how good the horse works. So I could and I would bet most others would say the same thing. I could care less what color the horse is.
> 
> Ex. My one mare was Reg with AQHA as a Red Dun. I can see why she as a young horse would have been reg that way. I got her as a 2yo and you could see she was not a red dun but a dun. Could care less what color she was. She is a very well bred horse with a lot of athletic ability and has proven herself in the show pen and now in the breed shed. She could have been purple for all I care.


Like I said just depends onthe person buying the horse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2012)

nrhareiner said:


> It sounds like she is and from the pictures posted and the picture on the copy of the horses papers she has what she should have.
> 
> As the end of the day the color of a horse does not make the horse. It does not change how good a horse is or how good the horse works. So I could and I would bet most others would say the same thing. I could care less what color the horse is.
> 
> Ex. My one mare was Reg with AQHA as a Red Dun. I can see why she as a young horse would have been reg that way. I got her as a 2yo and you could see she was not a red dun but a dun. Could care less what color she was. She is a very well bred horse with a lot of athletic ability and has proven herself in the show pen and now in the breed shed. She could have been purple for all I care.


IMO....at least in my case.
This happens from AQHA encouraging the early registration of foals.

I have had them shed out VERY different.

Bay, red duns and one black were all roans as adults.

One sorrel was a liver chestnut.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Ripper said:


> IMO....at least in my case.
> This happens from AQHA encouraging the early registration of foals.
> 
> I have had them shed out VERY different.
> ...


AQHA is not early. 7 months is not bad. APHA is 3 months. So I do not have a problem with the AQHA time frame. Also you can change the color easy enough. Not to mention that there are tests for just about every color.


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## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

i just want to say that i have a friend who has a APHA mare named Flicka, that horse HAS papers, and it IS her. and she IS gaited, i have rode that horse, and seen others ride her and she is definitely gaited, now whether it was taught to her or natural? who knows. but she is actually pretty smooth when she gets gaiting lol


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

lilkitty90 said:


> i just want to say that i have a friend who has a APHA mare named Flicka, that horse HAS papers, and it IS her. and she IS gaited, i have rode that horse, and seen others ride her and she is definitely gaited, now whether it was taught to her or natural? who knows. but she is actually pretty smooth when she gets gaiting lol


Huh, I didn't think gaited breeds were those usually found in the APHA? I was always under the impression that Paints came mainly from QH and TB lines. Ya learn something new every day I guess! :lol:


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

Hmmm not sure about the gaited breeds, in reading the below, are you maybe confusing Paint with Pinto, which is based on color alone and not on breed, like Paints are?

American Paint Horse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 

*History*
The American Paint Horse shares a common ancestry with the American Quarter Horse and the Thoroughbred. A registered Paint horse should conform to the same "stock horse" body type desired in Quarter Horses: a muscular animal that is heavy but not too tall, with a low center of gravity for maneuverability, and powerful hindquarters suitable for rapid acceleration and sprinting.

When the American Quarter Horse Association emerged in 1940 to preserve horses of the "stock" type, it excluded those with pinto coat patterns and "crop out" horses, those born with white body spots or white above the knees and hocks. Undeterred, fans of colorful stock horses formed a variety of organizations to preserve and promote Paint horses. In 1965 some of these groups merged to form the American Paint Horse Association.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Hoofprints in the Sand said:


> Huh, I didn't think gaited breeds were those usually found in the APHA? I was always under the impression that Paints came mainly from QH and TB lines. Ya learn something new every day I guess! :lol:


 
First I doubt that the horse she was talking about was truly gaited. Most likely the horse racked or did some type of suffle which can at times look like a gait. Sometimes it comes down to shoes trim and other factors. So although a horse is all AQHA or APHA some do have movement that can look and or even feel like a gaited horse.

Also keep in mind that these 'Breeds" are not that old in the grand sceam of things and I would bet that if you go back fare enough in some lines of QH and Paints that you will find a grade horse who was gaited.


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## greenbryerfarms (Apr 9, 2012)

I believe you can teach any horse. Anything just if it comes natural its easeyer,had a whimpy mare that would trot funny found out they slowed her fr western pleasure and that's how shetought herself to move to please them itwas a lovely trot. Like my gated horses
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## greenbryerfarms (Apr 9, 2012)

Although were so off topic for the thread we should just start one for people to discuss this
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Newby32 (Dec 4, 2011)

Good luck to the OP! I started new horse ownership in a very similar way. I didn't have registration paper discrepancies, but dealt with major health issues that were kept under wraps. Sometimes, (especially being newbies) we learn things the hard way, but we grow with the experience. I wish you luck in moving your new girl!


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## JadenAndGagesMom (Apr 27, 2012)

*moved her to her new home *

Last Saturday, Anna got moved from the scary barn to her forever home. She is so happy there, and they've accepted her into the herd. 6 of them including her. Papers have not been sorted out, but for now its ok because Anna is happy and healthy and safe. She has a gelding-protector that bonded with her soon after arrival.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

^^^^She has a boyfriend!


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## ThirteenAcres (Apr 27, 2012)

You both look great! So glad you got her to a safe home. =D!


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## JadenAndGagesMom (Apr 27, 2012)

Quick 15 second video, I was trying to get a video of her running when we first put her out. Failed a little.


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## redpony (Apr 17, 2012)

Glad she is safe and you both look very happy! Thanks for the update
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SplashedOvero (May 16, 2012)

Dont feel to bad about this situation considering this is your first time.
When i got my horse i was a newbie still am a little. 
I saw a ad in the local paper for a Black 5 year old well broke QH mare for $200
I called & told them I wanted the horse (not thinking to go ride it & look I didnt know any better) When they brought the horse to my house they unloaded a "brown & white" Stud colt 
I thought he was Cute So i paid the $200 They told me 
"we thought he would be a better horse for you than the mare hes a Walker Cross & hes 17 months old" Come to find out from a friend He was barely 6 months old Proably just taken from his mom & I was told the people who sold him to me bought Cheap horses at auctions drugged them & resold them asap to someone who would buy them. Later on I found out they only paid $50 for him & made $200 the next day.
So I had to wait 2 1/2 years before i could break him By then I knew enough to do it correctly enough to have a decent riding horse I think i did a great job for my first time & hes now 4 years old.
I was nieve & didnt know any better but I love my horse & Wouldnt do it over if I could. But I Wont Be mistaken for a fool the next time I buy a horse because I know better. As long as you love her thats all that matters If you think you may show later on you should try to get the orginial papers. But at least you did end up with a horse you can ride Unlike me I had to wait almost 3 years to ride my horse. If You cant Get the papers & need some for a show Not a APHA breed show but anyother you can register her as a Overo Pinto.


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## SplashedOvero (May 16, 2012)

I have to admit though Your whole situation with the papers Does Sound sketchy. Seems as if she was just looking to make a quick buck & she did but you didnt get totaly screwed you just paid for a horse with papers & didnt get them.
But now you know what to look for next time & hopefully you wont let no one else do you like this.


Shes Very Beautiful though Good luck & enjoy her  


Heres My boy http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/7211189926


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## Shropshirerosie (Jan 24, 2012)

Wow, I've just read through this whole thread! To the original poster I hope you and Anna have a great journey together from hereon in. Sadly, first time owners do seem to go through this kind of 'rite of passage' but it seems that you have survived relatively unscathed.

Best of luck with her.


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## JadenAndGagesMom (Apr 27, 2012)

Thank you for sharing your story! I didn't realize at first how shady some people are in the horse world- now I know a little better what to look out for. I'm glad you were able to turn your mistake around for the better  I don't plan on showing her, breeding her, or selling her so hopefully it'll be ok. She really is a good horse and she is well-trained. We're now working on mutual trust and respect and I think that'll come with time. She's been patient with me as I learn. But I have learned my lesson and won't make the same mistake again!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JadenAndGagesMom (Apr 27, 2012)

I survived this crazy rite of passage! Thank you so much for your kind words. And everyone's help  I would've been so lost without this forum <3
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JadenAndGagesMom (Apr 27, 2012)

So here we go again. I decided to post here since it has so much background story, though the original question of the post is solved. 

I moved Anna about 2 weeks after buying her to a private barn. Since then, Anna became more and more disrespectful and spooky.

She wasn't corrected effectively, and things went from bad to worse. Now she has many bad behaviors and now I have to spend a lot of money with a trainer or sell her.

Her behaviors are this: Planting her feet on the lead line, head tossing, bucking during a canter, crow-hopping, and being extremely spooked by cars and other things, but mostly cars, and bolting from spooks.

She bucked me off last Saturday and I'm now afraid to ride. She is nothing like the horse she was when I bought her. When I first got her and she was still at that old barn, I could barely get her to go. She would walk reluctantly. Would not trot on a squeeze, you had to kick her real hard. Then she would trot for a minute before slowing down to a walk and eventually stopping, no matter how hard you kicked, with loose reins. They told me it was because I was "nervous". Which I really wasn't. 

Moved to a new barn and thats when it started going downhill. She even freaks out being tied. If shes not in a quick release, she spazzes out and pulls back hard til shes sitting down and will break the post. 

Do I try to sell her or spend the money on a trainer to help us both? 
And is there any way to drug test the horse if it was 2 months ago?
Thanks everyone!!


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Unfortunately I don't believe that there is a test that you can run at this point. 

I would suggest working with a trainer with her and then making the decision if you want to keep going with her or not. It sounds like she has been testing and allowed to "get away with" some things and she just keeps pushing the line. I could be wrong though.

Like i said, my advice is to get a trainer to work with her, and to work with you _with_ her.  Good luck!


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

Im sorry your having to deal with this.

Makes me wonder if she was getting small amounts of something to keep her calm. Sure seems like it...

Finding the root cause of this is going to help immensely. Is it holes in her training? Is she in heat? Is she testing you? Does she just not know whats being asked? Is it improper fitting tack?

So many questions and not enough answers. I think talking with a good, reliable, professional trainer is going to be best. And then go from there...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cacowgirl (Feb 19, 2011)

You were so happy w/her in the beginning, now some major issues-sure hate to see this. Can you ask at at Sally's if she was on any supplements? You aren't graining her are you? I would certaily have an experienced horse person evaluate her & guide you as to your next step.


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## spurstop (Mar 22, 2012)

You got taken, unfortunately. A rough and expensive lesson for sure.

Who is going to buy a bucking horse? Even if you don't want to ride her anymore, you'll need to get that sorted before you try to sell her, or disclose that to any potential buyers and price accordingly. Did you ever get her papers sorted?

Just an FYI about "gaited" APHA registered horses: if they go to a paint shoe or event and are gaiting, they'll get their papers yanked.


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

How long have you been at your new place? I just recently moved barns (few months ago) and my usually calm as a cucumber mare went bonkers! She broke her halter trying to get out of the crossties TWICE (something she had NEVER done before!), she would RUN around on the lunge which again, was not like her, always distracted and calling wildly to her friends. It was horrible. We ended up putting her on Depo since it seemed like she was also permanently in heat, and with that and after letting her settle in a month or two, she is back to normal again  

It was VERY frustrating, but you may want to get a vet AND/or a good trainer out to give you their opinion before you try to sell her, especially if you really liked her and wanted to keep her at one point.


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

JadenAndGagesMom said:


> She wasn't corrected effectively, and things went from bad to worse. Now she has many bad behaviors and now I have to spend a lot of money with a trainer or sell her.
> 
> Her behaviors are this: Planting her feet on the lead line, head tossing, bucking during a canter, crow-hopping, and being extremely spooked by cars and other things, but mostly cars, and bolting from spooks.
> 
> ...


But this IS the same horse…not willing to go is just as disrespectful as bucking you off … its still the same "I don't wanna" and "make me" attitude. You are making the mistake of thinking your horse has changed. She hasn't.


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

It sounds like the horse you rode and loved at the horse "sellers" and I use that word loosely since she seems to have stretched things about the papers and the actual horse so much anyway was probably either being kept drugged or had been ridden down so much she was calm and gentle. Now she is getting good nutrition, is feeling good and her true colors are coming out.. She is a mare also, some mares are so sweet and loving, some are real devils and really act out.
You need a trainer to see if you can help her attitude and training. Then sell her or keep her, depending on how it works out.
A lesson learned, if it seems to good to be true, if there are questions about papers and the actual horse itself concerning age, breed, etc, then you need to walk away and not get taken.


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

Just read through the whole thread... wow.

Looks like you know your options- it's a matter of deciding if you want to invest the time and money in training or just sell her. I'd recommend at least having a good trainer come and evaluate her and let you know what you're in for. If you decide to send her to a trainer, know what you're getting, and get a trainer who will give you regular status updates and work with you on your horse a few times. My trainer sent her mare to a (regionally) well-known trainer for a month and during that time he never even rode her once. :shock: 

Bucking can be pretty scary... Having leased a horse that several months in started bucking like a bronc (long story) I know how difficult it can be to get back on and trust the horse again.

Selling would have its benefits for you... you won't be able to sell the horse for what you paid for her, but you can only lose a limited amount of money. Once she's sold, you can decide if you're interested in buying another horse, leasing for a while, or taking lessons and riding lesson horses.


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## JadenAndGagesMom (Apr 27, 2012)

I think I've decided to go the selling route. I know I'm gonna lose money, but I'm not gonna be dishonest. I have her on equinenow for $500 but no ones interested so far. I may find that it's gonna be hard to get any money for her, I don't even know if I can give her away. 

I want to sell her and take lessons for a long time and maybe try again in the future. Since we're still fairly new to each other, I don't think I will ever trust her. I don't want to give up on riding, I really enjoy it as a hobby. But I can't enjoy it with Anna. 

Thank you all for being there for me and giving me the advice I needed- I couldn't get it anywhere else.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LetAGrlShowU (Mar 25, 2009)

I have skimmed through most of these pages, but I dont necessarily believe you got taken or that she was drugged. You are new to this, very, very new. Without a fair mentor to show you when a horse is slyly getting away with a bad behavior. These things can certainly get by a beginner. 

But those things show the horse that they are in charge. If a horse thinks it's in charge regarding one instance, it will begin to take charge since you haven't. 

This can all be changed with ground work. You should still get a trainer, but for yourself. They can help you correct the bwehaviors appropriately and timely and if the horse needs to be sent to the trainer, they can tell you that too. But groundwork goes a long way to show the horse who is boss. Right now, she's boss.

I see you make mention of the previous owner saying you were nervous when you rode because the horse wasn't responding to your cues. She may have been correct, even if you didn't feel it. 

ultimately, you'll need to decide what is best for you and the horse. But after reading the thread, it is apparent how new you are to this (I dont mean that in a negative way) and its easy to influence a horses' behavior without knowing it.


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