# Bay or Brown?



## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

If his mane sunbleaches then he is brown.

A bay mane/tail doesnt sunbleach.


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## HowClever (Feb 16, 2010)

faye said:


> If his mane sunbleaches then he is brown.
> 
> *A bay mane/tail doesnt sunbleach*.


Um, beg to differ.

Phoenix is most definitely bay










And most definitely sun bleaches.












In regards to your horse Phantom, I would say brown.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

I would say dark bay. My mare is a bay and is my gelding, her mane bleaches a little too. I haven't seen his get bleached yet.


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## goneriding (Jun 6, 2011)

I thought browns had a lighter muzzle, looks dark bay to me.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Can't really tell from this pic. The horse is sparkling clean and beautiful, but the shadows cover parts of the horse that we need to see such as the face and the flank.


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## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

are you sure phoenix is bay? because i think he also looks brown.
and i say the OP's horse is also brown, while you can't see the muzzle to well you can see the flanks and how it is considerably lighter then the rest of the body.


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## HowClever (Feb 16, 2010)

Certain yes.

Winter coat.










And summer coat, where it is even more clear that he is definitely bay.


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## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

ok in those pictures he certainly does look bay, just the above made it look like he had the lighter shade of muzzle, lately it seems like Bay is becomming more and more of a rare color lol


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

HC and OP I would say that both horses are brown. HC yours is just a lighter brown, and not the dark/almost black brown.


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## HowClever (Feb 16, 2010)

Honestly, I find it very difficult to believe Phoenix is anything other than a stone cold bay. I have done a fair bit of reading on colour genetics and I have never seen anything in him that says brown to me. 

Can I ask NdAppy what makes you think brown and not bay? Especially in the summer coat photo that really shows off his colouring.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

The winter coat. The summer coat you loose the shorter hairs around the muzzle. In a true bay those hairs would not be that mealy lighter color, that is the biggest indicator for me. :smile: Summer pictures makes it hard to judge browns from bays due to more sunbleaching and the short/finer hair. Winter hair, more so early winter hair, will show the difference between bay/brown more so.

This is just my observations and my gut feeling on it.


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## HowClever (Feb 16, 2010)

I think we will have to agree to disagree then, I have had others look at him, as well as my own research and you are the first to suspect brown. 

In the interest of discussion though, thoughts on these 3, all in winter coats. (sorry to hijack from the OP)

Sorry about the dirt, best photo I could find in winter coat


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## AngieLee (Feb 20, 2011)

okay.... apparently i need to do mroe research on my colours now. I always thought a bay was just brown with black points. so to the OP i would say bay... but thats not saying much as now im confused! lol


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## Iseul (Mar 8, 2010)

OP, a better picture would help everyone out with suggesting which colour. We need to be able to clearly see muzzle, legs, and flank; as those are what must be black for it to be a bay instead of just brown.
Someone mentioned that bays cannot have sunbleached manes or tails, I beg to differ. I don't have a picture right now, but the bay pony at my barn is most definitely bay, has -all- black points, and the bottom of his tail is sunbleached horribly at the moment.
HowClever, I'd definitely say that your horse is bay and agree with you. They're allowed to have lighter spots as long as all the points (legs, ear tips, muzzle, some consider flank but ive never seen a horse with a dark muzzle have a lighter flank...) are dark (look black). Even though part of the muzzle on your horse has the lighter mealy colour, he's still bay because of the fact that his lips (muzzle) are dark and not the same mealy colour. A lot of bays I've seen have the little bit of mealy fur above their dark point on the muzzle.
A bay is a brown with dark (black) points. So, if a brown has a mealy muzzle, the dark point would either cover up all of the mealy colour or some of it, as long as it would cover part of it enough to say that the muzzle is a dark point. Am I correct?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HowClever (Feb 16, 2010)

That is what I have read Iseul and what I base my opinions off.


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## Phantomcolt18 (Sep 25, 2007)

> okay.... apparently i need to do mroe research on my colours now. I always thought a bay was just brown with black points. so to the OP i would say bay... but thats not saying much as now im confused! lol


AngieLee- it's okay I always thought the same too haha.

here are some more pictures, I saw someone mentioned that the one picture wasn't the best.












































I've always been fine with him being "just" brown, but my friend keeps INSISTING he's bay hahaha:lol:


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## Iseul (Mar 8, 2010)

Mhm, same here.
Btw, Pheonix looks lovely.

ETA-
OP, I do think that he is bay. Not positive because the best picture is very dark, but it looks like his lips are black, which would make it a dark point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HowClever (Feb 16, 2010)

Seeing the new pictures I would actually go with bay too.

Thanks Iseul


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

The lips will not be a mealy color on brown horse. A brown (At) horse has ligther coloration around the muzzle and in the stiffle area, as well as around the elbows. The lighter area is not always that much of a difference in the "soft" areas of the body. Brown horses can and will have black points, just like a bay since they are a variation of bay. Just like bay horses, there are many, many shades of brown. Being as brown isn't thought of as a color in and of itself, most people write it off as bay.

HC - On my phone so the two side pictures aren't showing up real well. Will check those when I get home. The middle face pic, well the mealy tells me brown. *shrugs*

OP - He still is brown IMO.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Iseul just to clarify - the mealy 'muzzle' of a brown horse isn't the lips and nostrils themselves. 










This horse is a brown. You can see the mealy on the nose, and still black lips and nostrils. This is a classic example of brown, but I am using it to show the placement of the mealy


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

This is my mare Angel I believe she is a blood bay her mane and tail never sun bleach


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## Iseul (Mar 8, 2010)

Chiilaa, what I meant was enough of the fur around the nostrils and lips would be enoughto consider as a dark point. I saw the fur around the nostrils and lips as being black, and then mealy, and then the brown/bay colour. I'll try and get a picture of Toby (bay pony) when I get back to my house to show what I was trying to explain.
And, LuvMyPerlinoQH, I believe Angel's tail is sunbleached in the second photo..?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Iseul said:


> Chiilaa, what I meant was enough of the fur around the nostrils and lips would be enoughto consider as a dark point. I saw the fur around the nostrils and lips as being black, and then mealy, and then the brown/bay colour. I'll try and get a picture of Toby (bay pony) when I get back to my house to show what I was trying to explain.
> And, LuvMyPerlinoQH, I believe Angel's tail is sunbleached in the second photo..?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ha yep your right the tip of her tail does but her mane hasnt


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## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

ok so here are ALL browns and it kind of gives you an idea of the variations of brown, and HC due to the 2nd picture i do believe your boy is technically brown, but of course it wouldn't hurt my feelings if you kept calling him bay! thats what my mom does anyway.

Here is sparta.. and you can clearly see he is brown and his lighter points,
















still brown, BUT this one makes it harder to see his points.








and my mom's "bay"
note the barely lighter color on her muzzle, stifles and around her elbows
















same horse, and you can clearly see the lighter color.note the date and time frame of the picture, as to when it is most noticible








and the TB we had for a short period.
he is Also brown but has a much lighter variation of the color on his muzzle


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## Phantomcolt18 (Sep 25, 2007)

OKay I think I'm just gonna keep calling TC brown no matter what my friend says haha. His papers say brown, my BO says he's brown, he looks brown...so if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and walks like a duck than it must, in fact, be a duck haha

Thanks guys it was actually really informative.


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## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

i do want to say that this horse IS bay, and you can note that his muzzle isn't lighter, he's a wild bay, so his black points are restricted.


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## goneriding (Jun 6, 2011)

Chiilaa said:


> Iseul just to clarify - the mealy 'muzzle' of a brown horse isn't the lips and nostrils themselves.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I had a mare the exact same color and she was a "seal" brown.


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## Rachel1786 (Nov 14, 2010)

My horse IS a bay right, because some of these that you guys are saying they are brown look bay to me


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## goneriding (Jun 6, 2011)

That is a bay.


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## goneriding (Jun 6, 2011)

Her dam is a buckskin and her sire is a dun. She is a registered bay.


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## goneriding (Jun 6, 2011)

He is a registered bay.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

goneriding said:


> He is a registered bay.


Registry bodies are not known for being either accurate with their colours or up-to-date with current research. Relying on what the registry says can often result in a horse being called the wrong colour.

Just want to add my two cents here. There seems to be a stigma attached to having a horse that is 'just' brown. Almost as if brown is a 'bad' colour. It's not! It's a variation of bay, just like wild bay is. It is not a reflection on your horse's quality, their breeding or their potential. A good horse is never a bad colour, and this applies to our brown equines too.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Chiilaa said:


> Registry bodies are not known for being either accurate with their colours or up-to-date with current research. Relying on what the registry says can often result in a horse being called the wrong colour.
> 
> Just want to add my two cents here. There seems to be a stigma attached to having a horse that is 'just' brown. Almost as if brown is a 'bad' colour. It's not! It's a variation of bay, just like wild bay is. It is not a reflection on your horse's quality, their breeding or their potential. A good horse is never a bad colour, and this applies to our brown equines too.



I think the AQHA and APHA are competent on their color knowledge.


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## HowClever (Feb 16, 2010)

Personally I prefer browns over bays. I have a solid brown mare who I think is the prettiest horse we own! If I saw anything to indicate Phoenix was actually brown I would claim it in a heartbeat.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> I think the AQHA and APHA are competent on their color knowledge.


Sorry, this is the most hilarious statement I have heard in a while.

Seriously? They are two of the worst bodies when it comes to colour knowledge.


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## Phantomcolt18 (Sep 25, 2007)

Chiilaa said:


> Just want to add my two cents here. There seems to be a stigma attached to having a horse that is 'just' brown. Almost as if brown is a 'bad' colour. It's not! It's a variation of bay, just like wild bay is. It is not a reflection on your horse's quality, their breeding or their potential. A good horse is never a bad colour, and this applies to our brown equines too.


Very well said! I personally don't enjoy a chestnut horse(unless there's a lot of chrome) but if I found one that was a chestnut that was perfect for what I was looking for in every other way but the color...I'd snatch it up. 

Aww my brownie boy is special haha. I personally love brown horses, they hide the dirt very well haha.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Chiilaa said:


> Sorry, this is the most hilarious statement I have heard in a while.
> 
> Seriously? They are two of the worst bodies when it comes to colour knowledge.


Well Maybe they dont have knowledge of "colour" but the have some knowledge of color.


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## Iseul (Mar 8, 2010)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> Well Maybe they dont have knowledge of "colour" but the have some knowledge of color.


There's no difference in the two spellings other than the fact that they're different spellings. Colour is from a region (England maybe?) and color is how grade school (schools) in the US teaches it. There is no difference in meaning.
And, I agree with Chiilaa. A horse at our barn is registered red roan when he's clearly chestnut with possible Sabino, yet has about a spot of slight roan about the size of an adult hand. They're not too knowledgable about colour patterns either, ime.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AngieLee (Feb 20, 2011)

colour and color are both the correct spelling FYI just depends which area your in/live in.

okay.... this thread is actually really intresting. i'v learned so much! but still confused lol ok what happens if a horse is black and sheds out into a dark bay. can that happen or would he be brown?

This is Norman. i was told he was a bay but i never really agree'd with it... brown right? or am i wrong? just applying my gut feeling and what i just learned lol
Winter coat


















summer:









or what about my boy?

Winter:









Now: this was just taken the other day after a bath


















he temporaily went REALLY light and looked like this. this was mid way through his shed out.


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## Rachel1786 (Nov 14, 2010)

AngieLee said:


> colour and color are both the correct spelling FYI just depends which area your in/live in.
> 
> okay.... this thread is actually really intresting. i'v learned so much! but still confused lol ok what happens if a horse is black and sheds out into a dark bay. can that happen or would he be brown?
> 
> ...


I would say the first one is brown and second is black, but that is just a guess, so someone with more knowledge then I have can probably correct me if I'm wrong
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> Well Maybe they dont have knowledge of "colour" but the have some knowledge of color.


Colour is the correct spelling in the English language. There are plenty of words that are spelled differently in the US than they are in other parts of the world, they still mean the same thing.

What would you register a smoky black as with the AQHA? They don't seem to recognise it as a colour. What about smoky cream? What about brown buckskin? These are all colours that are possible given the colours the AQHA recognise(oh look, no 'z' in that one!), but they don't recognise those colours? What about this 'white' that they do recognise, and yet the picture they use for that on their colour chart is the same horse they use for the cremello colour in their 'genetics' booklet. Even their 'genetics' booklet is full of holes and misinformation - the biggest one I saw was that chestnut/sorrel cannot carry other colours - yet agouti can be carried by a red horse and not expressed. And it always makes my eyes roll to see them list chestnut and sorrel as two different colours, when genetically they are the EXACT SAME THING.

Angielee - the first horse is a brown. The second looks like a fading black to me


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

I would like to put in my two cents and point out that someone who apparently owns a perlino QH should know that perlino and cremello weren't recognized as colours by the AQHA until recently..

Either way, I don't understand what the problem with owning a brown horse is with many people. One of the only brown horses I've seen in person was one of the most beautiful mares I've seen in a while.


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## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

i'd say Norman is Brown, and the last one is a Fading Black.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Question - does mealy not exist anymore, or have they discovered that mealy is associated strictly with brown? In any case, what would prevent a bay horse from having mealy?

The original horse on the thread is definitely brown IMO.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

-giggle- This is why most registries have the option for "Dark Bay/Brown" instead of one or the other.


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

Here's Woodstock in his summer coat. 
















Rags 








and the old man, Hondo


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> Question - does mealy not exist anymore, or have they discovered that mealy is associated strictly with brown? In any case, what would prevent a bay horse from having mealy?


Mealy is also known as Pangare. Current research, with the test now available for brown, suggests that it doesn't act on black hair. It can be seen on chestnuts and bays. The most common pangare you will see is on Fjords - that cute pale muzzle and the lighter underside is pangare  I believe that Exmoors are required to have pangare also, otherwise they may be denied registration.









You can see the pale underside well in this photo.









This filly is showing pangare. Neither of her parents are grey, so she is not going to grey out. It is pretty rare to find pangare in Arabians, so she is quite special


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

MF - Bay on the top, possible brown in the middle, and brown on the old man


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

JustDressageIt said:


> -giggle- This is why most registries have the option for "Dark Bay/Brown" instead of one or the other.


They shouldn't though :twisted:


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