# What Exactly is "Back at the Knee?"



## twp (Aug 19, 2012)

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bTvsoNRXLuE/Td1_Zh3NzoI/AAAAAAAAAEw/afHgbZuLvo8/s1600/Knee+image.jpg


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

Thanks for the link. I saw that before and I've been trying to reproduce what they have there, but I'm not great at that kind of thing... I'm not really sure if I have my line in the right spot. I've tried to replicate where they have their line, but it's tough to tell from a drawing to an actual picture. This is what I have, does that look correct? It's her leg, and a picture of a "back at the knee" leg... I don't know if I've really captured it though or have my line in the right spot because I don't see a similarity between the two.


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## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

Get her standing square and get a better pic. In the first one she doesn't look back at the knee to me but in the last two she does. You should be a me to figure it out without the lines. She'll look like she's leaning back on her front legs when she's standing straight.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

Hm. That first one is the squarest picture I have. I have these two from the other side, but they're probably not much better. I have some pictures of her on a memory stick at work, so I'll see if I can dig up anything better tomorrow. I see how you mean, looking at the drawing it would look like they're leaning back. I might see that slightly in her in the last picture, but it also looks like she's standing on a slight incline. As soon as I have better pictures, I'll post them. Are there any serious effects from being back at the knee? I would think it's hard on the tendons, but is there anything else to be watchful for? Do horses that are back at the knee commonly develop any soundness issues?


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## twp (Aug 19, 2012)

I think, the line should be slightly forward.. Not much, though.. What's the breed?


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

twp said:


> I think, the line should be slightly forward.. Not much, though.. What's the breed?


She's technically a Pinto. Her dam was 7/8 Arab, 1/8 Thoroughbred and her sire was a Paint.


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## Casey02 (Sep 20, 2011)

Her breed would not be pinto--that's a color


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

Casey02 said:


> Her breed would not be pinto--that's a color


She's registered as Pinto breeding stock with CPtHA. On paper she is a Pinto, however, for this purpose I didn't think that would be altogether useful which is why I included her sire & dam's breeds as well.

EDIT: My original post was meant to only clarify what she was registered as, which is why I said technically. Typing too fast and not thinking.


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

Ok, so I tried moving the line a little forward on my "Pinto" mare;:lol: I'm going to be making fun of myself for that one for a while. I know I shouldn't need to draw a line, I'm just trying to understand the shape/angle I would be looking for so hopefully, someday, I can actually spot this without using MS Paint. I apologize for my rudimentary artwork here; I tried to get both sides of her in this time. I can see she looks like she could be a little back at the knee from the perspective that her knee falls behind the line, but the sample picture provided has the line intersecting with the fetlock which hers doesn't even come close. So maybe slightly back at the knee? I'm sorry if I seem completely stupid here, but I'm really just trying to gain some clarity and knowledge around this. Maybe one day, I'll be giving out the critiques instead of constantly asking questions. Also, like I mentioned above, I'll try to see if I have any better photos of her tomorrow or, failing that, see if I can take some better ones in a few days - although, it being winter with deep snow and indoor lighting not the best, I'm not sure how successful I'll be.


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## csimkunas6 (Apr 18, 2010)

Glynnis said:


> Ok, so I tried moving the line a little forward on my "Pinto" mare;:lol: I'm going to be making fun of myself for that one for a while. I know I shouldn't need to draw a line, I'm just trying to understand the shape/angle I would be looking for so hopefully, someday, I can actually spot this without using MS Paint. I apologize for my rudimentary artwork here; I tried to get both sides of her in this time. I can see she looks like she could be a little back at the knee from the perspective that her knee falls behind the line, but the sample picture provided has the line intersecting with the fetlock which hers doesn't even come close. So maybe slightly back at the knee? I'm sorry if I seem completely stupid here, but I'm really just trying to gain some clarity and knowledge around this. Maybe one day, I'll be giving out the critiques instead of constantly asking questions. Also, like I mentioned above, I'll try to see if I have any better photos of her tomorrow or, failing that, see if I can take some better ones in a few days - although, it being winter with deep snow and indoor lighting not the best, I'm not sure how successful I'll be.
> 
> View attachment 121660



What I remember learning in school about leg confo is that the "Ideal" leg confo, that red line you have drawn, would have split the leg in half, even on both sides. Her being back at the knee, as minor, or as severe as it could be varies, obviously. For example, my horse is over at the knee, it just means that there is more leg on the one side of the line than there is the other, being back at the knee means that there is more leg, and knee to the back of the line than there is the front.

Does that make a little bit more sense? Probably not the way I explained it. Being back at the knee is less ideal that being over at the knee, from what I have been told, trainers prefer racehorses to be over at the knee, therefore, they have an easier time breaking over, or bending. Behind the knee is less preferred. Obviously the ideal leg, is just that, ideal, but to be honest, I havent seen many horses that do have the "perfect, Ideal Leg!" lol 

Like I said, hope my rambling made a little bit of sense to you! lol


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## twp (Aug 19, 2012)

Casey02 said:


> Her breed would not be pinto--that's a color


The poster never said her breed was a pinto.. She said she was a pinto.. Arab x tb x paint.. That = A pinto Horse.


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## twp (Aug 19, 2012)

She is really cool looking. She has a bigger shoulder with arab legs, and neck.. She might be slightly back at the knee, but looks to me like she just has a longer pastern.


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

csimkunas6 said:


> What I remember learning in school about leg confo is that the "Ideal" leg confo, that red line you have drawn, would have split the leg in half, even on both sides. Her being back at the knee, as minor, or as severe as it could be varies, obviously. For example, my horse is over at the knee, it just means that there is more leg on the one side of the line than there is the other, being back at the knee means that there is more leg, and knee to the back of the line than there is the front.
> 
> Does that make a little bit more sense? Probably not the way I explained it. Being back at the knee is less ideal that being over at the knee, from what I have been told, trainers prefer racehorses to be over at the knee, therefore, they have an easier time breaking over, or bending. Behind the knee is less preferred. Obviously the ideal leg, is just that, ideal, but to be honest, I havent seen many horses that do have the "perfect, Ideal Leg!" lol
> 
> Like I said, hope my rambling made a little bit of sense to you! lol


Yes! That does! Thank you for simplifying that for me.  I have a tendency to overanalyze things and I think I was getting thrown off by the fact that the line didn't meet with the edge of her fetlock, but the way you've explained it makes sense. Thank you!


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

twp said:


> She is really cool looking. She has a bigger shoulder with arab legs, and neck.. She might be slightly back at the knee, but looks to me like she just has a longer pastern.


Yes, she is neat. She ended up being really fine boned, which oddly, neither her sire nor dam were, but with what you said, I assume that came from the Arab lineage. She's also extremely out of shape in these pictures which I think makes her legs look skinnier than they actually are! I found one more picture of her, but it's not much different than the previous ones. Would the longer pasterns give the illusion of being more back at the knee? I know longer pasterns also aren't ideal. Do either one of these cause any issues in the long term? So far, she has been sound as sound can be with absolutely no health issues and she's 11 years old.


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## Sahara (Jul 23, 2010)

Calf knee conformation or "back at the knee" occurs when the cannon bone slants backward causing the knee joint to be positioned too far back. This can be congenital, in which there is nothing to be done to fix it, or it can be caused by poor hoof balance. Regardless of what causes it, the knee is continuously hyperextended, thereby weakening the structure of the forelimb and predisposes the horse to osselets.

There is a comprehensive article in Equus concerning forelimb conformation if you are really interested. August 2012. Issue 419.


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

Hm, I will have to see if I can access the article. I don't have a subscription to Equus... although it can never be a bad idea to get one. Her hooves in these pictures are not great. As I mentioned previously, she missed her regular farrier appointment due to a severe abscess where she was unable to bear weight on her front leg, so that could also be a contributing factor to her stance in these photos. I don't recall her legs seeming to be abnormal at any point, but I also wasn't looking for it so I could just be misremembering. I appreciate everyone's input on here.


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## caljane (Feb 7, 2009)

Glynnis, I think you understand the concept of "back in the knee" right. Your confusion seems to be why somebody said your mare would be "back in the knee" - which she is not. She has long and a bit soft front pasterns, and somebody must have interpreted it wrong, maybe your mare wasn't standing straight in that picture. Beautiful horse, love the neck!


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

Lol I think you might be right. I was trying to match two things that weren't ever going to match. I do know she has longer pasterns though. And thank you! I think she's pretty too, but that's because she's mine, so my opinion doesn't count for much!


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