# Chances Future? Read please.



## TheCowgirlRanda (Mar 31, 2010)

I went to a horse clinic this weekend and I learned alot!!! "Your horse doesn't have an issue, they have a symthom (can't spell) of a cause..." meaning that you need to have full respect from your horse before you ride her... if this means that you just work on the ground and focus only on getting her two eyes on you then you WILL see a change. This trainer I went to see was Clinton Anderson. I dont know if you personally like him and everyone has their own opinion and I dont mean to say you HAVE to use his method but I watched him take a TOTALLY DISRESPECTFUL horse and turn this horse into a dream!!! Not one horse but three! All he did in the beginning was have the horses two eyes on him. Longing for respect is such a great method for me personally. Anyways thats my word of advice for the night.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

We do a BUNCH of ground work. We're Level 3 online in the parelli program. We've also done round pen work and lunging. Actually I have a video of some of the lunge work I've done with her.






Sadly shes a DREAM on the ground. Which is why I've held onto her for so long. I LOVE working with her on ground.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Perhaps Chance is acting out of pain... From what I can remember, there have been numerous videos and threads about her acting up and being on and off lame. 
You have been given great advice on here for literally years, HAF.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

The woman and I guessed something physical but she is sound with her shoes, shes been checked for being out of alignment and she was fine, back checked and nothing there. The only thing to know for sure is ultrasound for anything that could be going on in the inside. But how much more money is that? Shes only been lame twice in her life, the first time was when I first got her, then with this injury to her navicular bone. But with the shoe shes sound and able to relax at all gaits and put weight on her hooves like normal. 

We thought lyme was the cause of her unpredictableness, but shes been treated, the weathers warmer and shes still on edge. 

JDI I know i've gotten a lot of good advice, but I never took it because I felt like I could fix her and we'd be fine but when even that woman at my barn wouldn't even get on her and shes pretty fearless... it opened my eyes big time that something has to be wrong with my horse.


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## sandy2u1 (May 7, 2008)

I really, really hope you mean it this time. You have done everything you can to help Chance...EVERYTHING! I know what it means to love a horse, but at some point you have got to start thinking about your own neck. If you keep on, one of those close calls are going to turn into a tragic accident. All of us take a certain amount of risk when riding and we all know it, but you are taking more risk than you should, IMO. I think you are a great person for trying to work things out with your horse. It isn't going to work though. Don't keep doing this to yourself.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Sandy I agree. I've risked my life A LOT of times and quite a few were close calls. Its been 2 years and I cant seem to get any further with Chance. 

I am more then ready to let go of her now. I love her but I want to ride for fun again not wondering if Im gonna live through my next fall. 

People at my barn actually are starting to ask if I came off of her during our ride everytime I ride her. It seems that everything is just escalating..


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> Chance.. when she bolted yesterday, I had to almost LITERALLY make her fall to the ground in order to stop her feet, then she was fine. A normal one rein stop wasn't enough she kept trying to go, so I let her loose again for a second then forced her to spin around tightly and she twisted herself and finally had to think about her feet cause she was starting to fall.


Once again - How is she sound enough to be doing things like this yet?

Apart from that - I don't really want to put too much time into a response here, because all of the well thought out and halpful posts have generally been ignored before this. I really, really hope you go through with this and get Chance to someone who will click with her and is able to handle her outbursts. But I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't happen.


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## rissaxbmth (Feb 2, 2010)

HorsesAreForever said:


> Sadly shes a DREAM on the ground. Which is why I've held onto her for so long. I LOVE working with her on ground.


It is hard to let go of a horse you love but holding onto a horse that is unsafe is not good for you, nor her. You may love doing ground work but there is a point where that won't be enough. I had a horse for 6 years, she was never broke and I held onto her because I had a bond with her and she was good on the ground but she did me no good because I couldn't ride her without the fear of her bucking me off or rearing. You may have survived those falls but there may be a day when you won't be so lucky. *I say choose the option you feel is best for her and for you*. I have a horse right now that I have kind of the same problem just not as bad.
Good luck


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## Sherri (Apr 1, 2010)

People have mental issues (bipolar, depression, ADHD, what ever), I am not sure why people don't think that some horses may have them too.

I learned the hard way with one particular gelding that attempted to kill me any time he got the opportunity that anyone SMART enough to know how to deal with him, was SMART enough to not want to.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

I couldn't live with myself if I sold a horse that was not only a danger to it's rider, but also to itself. There are plenty of good, hounest horses out there, we don't need to keep the ones that are plain lunatics. I said it in your last thread and it was completely blown off, but since you're instructor is saying the same thing, I'll say it again. Maybe getting her PTS is the best, safest and kindest option for everyone involved. Unless you find someone who is willing to take her on as a companion horse, I could NEVER sell a horse that is so dangerous and unpredictable. When they get to the point where they will do anything to get rid of you and completely lose the plot, I'm not interested. I have sold one horse who was a nutter when put under pressure. But she would have been a great little trail horse and happy to plod along on a loose rein. Told the buyers that and sure enough, they think they can 'fix' her and what happens, she throws them off and is now for sale again.

You don't want Chance to get passed home to home, injuring people as she goes and potentially ending up either at the doggers, or wasting away in a paddock somewhere in the middle of nowhere.

I would get her PTS while you have full control of the situation.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Sherri said:


> People have mental issues (bipolar, depression, ADHD, what ever), I am not sure why people don't think that some horses may have them too.


I agree. Sometime it's in their heads and you can do nothing about it. I came across 2 horses like this. One was just put down by the rescue as they could do nothing, not sure about other one - I believe he stayed as pasture pet.


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## Citrus (Feb 26, 2010)

Advice must be given knowing that there is a chance people won't take it... that instead they will compare it to what they know and decide the advice is not it..... it does take a strong person to accept that too.


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

I'm confused. I could swear you had recently had multiple threads about the vet diagnosing her with some very serious condition(s?) resulting in the conclusion she was not riding sound.
Aside from that, I believe Chance's future is going to be best served with someone else, so I do hope you find her a good placement.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

From all of your threads I've read I'm kind of with Kayty. Or try and find her a home that is strictly 100% companionship only. Even then I'd be worried about her new owners deciding to ride her one day thinking "well her old owner just didn't try hard enough or didn't know her like I know her." 

I just don't think this mare needs to be ridden. It doesn't seem like it's doing her a lot of good and she's a danger to whoever rides her. 

I really do hope you do something about her this time though.


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## CecilliaB (Jan 21, 2010)

I have met 1 horse who truly had mental issues. My trainer with 40+ years of experience brought her in to try and help her owner but she was a huge danger. She ran threw fences, would throw herself down on the ground, would lung at her stall walls, one time when we tried to tie her she beet her head against the tie rail and exposed her skull. She didn't pull back and freak out, she stood there and smacked her head against a metal pole...thank goodness for quick releases! It was a real night mare. After only 3 days my trainer sat down with the owner and convinced her to put her in a pasture (which she was fine in). I have no idea what was wrong with this horse but I had NEVER seen my trainer call it quits on any horse. Even when my old jumper came in OTT he was very aggressive and we got threw to him and he turned into a big puppy. 

If you can find a non riding situation she will be safe and happy in I think that's probably best for her and you and no one will fault you. It seems like you have done as much as you can to help and work with her.


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## Ridehorses99 (Dec 23, 2009)

My friend owns a gelding that sounds just like Chance. You can ride him several times and he's fine but then all of a sudden he just starts bucking completely out of the blue. Once he gets it out of his system, he will complete the trail ride and have no problems......like it never happened. Every once in a while, he will kick one of his back legs out sideways while he's walking - not kicking at anything, just kicking. My friend swears he has Equine Turrets. Anyway, she has basically turned him into a pasture horse as he's not safe to ride. He has thrown way too many people. At some point in time, you need to realize that your and the horse's safety is much more important the proving a point. You have tried, you have been patient and put lots of hours into the mare, but she is still not safe to ride. I would find her a nice home where she can be a pasture horse and let her live out her life safely and happily.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

She was diagnosed with Lyme and a lameness problem but she was treated for lyme with a 6-7 week treatment. And with eggbar shoes she is infact sound. She Roughage on her navicular bone may never be fixed but with shoes we can make her comfortable and relaxed within her gaits and be able to take a step with out being in pain. 

What is PTS??? Im not quite sure what that is so I cant really respond to your reply. Can you explain?

The woman at my barn was worried about selling her as a companion horse since they MAY try and ride her but, imo that would be out of my control and I would say - I do not reccomend riding her, but if you do I warned you. 

Chance has been through being ran over by a tractor, cattle proded, slipped under trailers as a baby cause they were forcing her in, been made to rear to bad that she hit her head off of the ceiling beams, and whipped pretty hard in her chest/ rump so hard she had marks. All of this happened before she was even 4 1/2 which is when I got her. I think just TO much has happened to that mare that its caused perminate damage. 

No horse should be fine w/t/c in the indoor and the next day be flighty and bull headed .. on and off for 2 years...it SHOULD have been over with a while ago it shouldnt be so continuous. Or be fine with jumping for a good 1/2 hour then over the SAME jump shes been jumping land and do a 180 with multiple bucks. Or at the walk... she takes off FULL gallop crow hops when she stops then once shes done.. shes PERFECTLY fine again. The person watching said there was no way to tell that was gonna happen. So idk I think its mental more or less.

I told the person who wants to take her on that she bolts randomly with out warning and it escalates, and shes like yeah I've delt with horses like that - shes determined she can make Chance bomb proof. She said If I like what she does with her she will sell her back to me. But I'm looking at my options, there is someone looking for a companion horse who may take her for $200.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Again, I bring forth the question.... is she in pain? Many horses just cannot stand being in pain and act out because they absolutely cannot do it anymore. You can't know for sure how long her navicular has been bothering her. You cannot say for absolute certain that it isn't bothering her now -- for goodness sake, she was just diagnosed 3 weeks ago..!
I'll liken it to my knee -- today I am in a lot of pain. It's hard for me to even get up the stairs. I'm grouchy because of it. But some days I'm not in pain, and can walk for a half hour on concrete without too much trouble. 
My friend just had a saddle fitter out to check her mare that was acting out here and there. It turns out that the saddle is causing deep muscle soreness. She didn't act out every day, just sporadically. 
Again I ask what exactly you have had done about Chance's lameness? What tests did they do? Did you read my reply on your last thread, when I posted a video about Denny? How can you be absolutely certain that she's not in pain - _especially_ when you've w/t/c and jumped her 3 weeks after finding out that she has a serious condition? 

PTS means put to sleep; euthanized. If she truly is as bad as you say she is, I agree with whoever suggested it might be the best option for her.


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## kmacdougall (Feb 12, 2010)

Kayty said:


> I couldn't live with myself if I sold a horse that was not only a danger to it's rider, but also to itself. There are plenty of good, hounest horses out there, we don't need to keep the ones that are plain lunatics. I said it in your last thread and it was completely blown off, but since you're instructor is saying the same thing, I'll say it again. Maybe getting her PTS is the best, safest and kindest option for everyone involved. Unless you find someone who is willing to take her on as a companion horse, I could NEVER sell a horse that is so dangerous and unpredictable. When they get to the point where they will do anything to get rid of you and completely lose the plot, I'm not interested. I have sold one horse who was a nutter when put under pressure. But she would have been a great little trail horse and happy to plod along on a loose rein. Told the buyers that and sure enough, they think they can 'fix' her and what happens, she throws them off and is now for sale again.
> 
> You don't want Chance to get passed home to home, injuring people as she goes and potentially ending up either at the doggers, or wasting away in a paddock somewhere in the middle of nowhere.
> 
> I would get her PTS while you have full control of the situation.


Agreed. My biggest fear would be selling her to a home where she may be ridden only to find out in a few months down the road that she's seriously hurt/killed someone.
A horse that you admit is a danger to those around them, is, unfortunately, not something to be kept around. Please keep in mind who you are selling her to has a family and friends who love them very much. Selling them an animal that could potentially be lethal to them is a very, very bad situation.
I would very much try to find her a strictly companion home (yes, I am aware of how hard that is in this economy), or maybe consider having her put to sleep..
Horses that are that dangerous are really not worth keeping, as sad as it is to say.
Whatever you decide, good luck, I wish you the best.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

Good point about the pain. 

I have some problems with my hips and now that I've been doing physical therapy they almost never hurt. But last Friday out of nowhere they both started killing me, I was a total crabass all day. It wasn't even constant pain either, I was fine one moment, then I would take a step and almost drop it hurt so bad. If I was a horse, I could totally see myself flipping out because of the pain I was in. To anyone who didn't know what was going on it would seem really random too.

I personally don't really agree with selling or giving away horses who are dangerous, esp the type of random dangerous she is. You say that you'll tell them about her issues and if they ride her "you warned them." Well what if they ride her anyways? After she flips they sell her and don't warn someone. She flips out on a child and severly injures them. This time she goes to the problem horse trainer down the street who beats the crap out of her. Then she's passed on to the auction and to slaughter. End result, she gets treated like ****, hurts people, and dies anyways. You could prevent all that by just stepping up to the plate and putting her to sleep now. Sometimes that's all you can do. Much like a dog that randomly attacks people... would you keep it alive and miserable (muzzled, not allowed to socialize, etc) or just end the cycle? In a perfect world this would never come up, but that's life.

As I'm writing this I'm realizing I'm more on the side of just putting her down now. Good luck with your decision.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

MN Tigerstripes said:


> Good point about the pain.
> 
> I have some problems with my hips and now that I've been doing physical therapy they almost never hurt. But last Friday out of nowhere they both started killing me, I was a total crabass all day. It wasn't even constant pain either, I was fine one moment, then I would take a step and almost drop it hurt so bad. If I was a horse, I could totally see myself flipping out because of the pain I was in. To anyone who didn't know what was going on it would seem really random too.
> 
> ...


Thank you for chiming in. Anyone who has suffered from chronic pain can associate with this. I have knee problems and also an abdominal problem - my abdominal problem can literally flare up at any time without warning. One moment I'm fine, the next I'm doubled over in pain. I can sometimes go days without a flare-up, and some days I have constant flare-ups. Regarding my knee... if I overdo things one day, I suffer for it the next. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that Chance is acting out of pain. Especially finding out that she's been worked so hard after finding a fairly major problem

I too think that Euthing her would be best.


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## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

After reading all of the posts of all the trials and tribulations you have had with Chance. (A lot of threads) I agree with the posters who say put Chance to sleep. I know its hard, I haven't had to put down a horses (yet), but I did have to put my beloved dog down after 3 trainers (hardest thing I ever did). She wasn't aggressive but unpredictable and I couldn't risk her hurting someone. I was going to give her away to a farm where she could run and run, but if she hurt someone it would be on my conscience. Do the right thing for Chance regardless of what you want.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

JustDressageIt said:


> Thank you for chiming in. Anyone who has suffered from chronic pain can associate with this. I have knee problems and also an abdominal problem - my abdominal problem can literally flare up at any time without warning. One moment I'm fine, the next I'm doubled over in pain. I can sometimes go days without a flare-up, and some days I have constant flare-ups. Regarding my knee... if I overdo things one day, I suffer for it the next. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that Chance is acting out of pain. Especially finding out that she's been worked so hard after finding a fairly major problem
> 
> I too think that Euthing her would be best.


I have constant, chronic lower back pain. When it's at a dull roar I can ignore it, but sometimes it flares to the point where I can barely move.

The _last _thing I'd want to do when that happens is to strap weight to my back and run around a course, jump obstacles, or go out on the trails. 

I've thought for awhile that Chance was reacting out of pain. Even if the animal isn't and is just dangerously unpredictable, I also feel that euthing would be in everyone's best interest.

I'd never sell or give away an animal that I knew could be dangerous. Sometimes being responsible means doing the thing you least want to do, but know is right.


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

I would also euthanise her. You can't predict she will never ever be ridden again and if the woman taking her reckons she can make her bomb proof when both your trainer and BO reckon she has a screw loose then I would question how she plans on making Chance bombproof. If you sold her to be a pasture pet for the rest of life then there is the chance she could be ridden by someone who thinks it's a shame to see a young horse in field. Passing on a problem isn't the answer and in this case I think euthing is as it will ensure Chance isn't hurt by anyone else and she never hurts anyone else.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

Here's my 2 cents on this matter......

If shes a dream on the ground and a nightmare in the saddle, I'd have tendancy to say there's some problem with saddle work. Whether you're too heavy, the saddle is too heavy, doesn't fit right, you're seat is wrong, your heels are turned in a quarter of an inch too far, WHATEVER. My TB can't wear a saddle over 20 pounds....its tried and tested that he throws HUGE fits with heavy saddles. I'm 99 percent sure that he has back problems, but I can't call the chiropractor out right now, but we're not working so it doesn't matter. I don't know if you have any critique threads up so I don't know how tall you are or what you're body type is, but she might have some injury, whether something as simple as sore back muscles or something as complicated as a cracked vertebrae that may be aggrivated when you ride. Also consider that long term effects of Lyme disease can include neurological changes, so depending on how long it went untreated, her brain may just be unable to process things correctly all of the time. But since shes been excellent on the ground throughout all of these problems, I'd say thats probably not likely.

I don't remember what personality you'd said that Chance was classified as when you were following Parelli, but I'm just going to take a guess and say that she was introverted? Also consider this when you're thinking of her behavior. Introverts take a LOT into their systems before all at once blowing up....more or less passive-aggressive behavior. While she may be a good candidate for being put down, You should also consider EVERY option before then, and I only say that because I know that you love this girl and it would be a hard decision for you to make.

About this trainer....ask for references. Lots of references. Ask to see the horses that she's turned out, and talk to the owners and see what the horses were like before she took them on. She may just have a way with certain types of horses, the way that some people are suited for dealing with special needs children. 

If all else fails, then you can consider euthanizing her. Since you cant guarantee that she'll always be a pasture pet after you sell her, and you don't have the money to justify her without being ridden, it seems like the best solution. If she were older, I'm sure she'd be a better candidate for a nice pasture puff, but as a 6 y/o, there would always be that little bit of temptation. Even with you.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

The reason why I really don't think her navicular thing is a problem, because she shows signs that shes not in pain, she lowers her head to the ground when trotting, and offers the canter and blows out, which means relaxation. Before her head was always in the air and she was very tight in her body language. Now im not saying something isn't bothering her physically but no one seems to see anything else about her. I could get ultra sounds and xrays jsut to know for sure, but then its like... what if there's nothing wrong.. or there is.. how much money am I throwing out there. 

She does get some air on ground too but idk its not the same. Like on ground its playful jumps and bucks just like any young horse really. But in saddle its fear kicking in and she cant handle herself when she explodes which makes everything else worse. Now sometimes it IS on purpose when she takes off for the door, but I never come off when she pulls that. Which is where it comes back to when its on purpose and when its not. 

The woman at my barn did mention putting her to sleep. I just don't know how easy that would be to do. Not only for me but for everyone around me. Its an option but hopefully the LAST option. 

JSB - Shes a LBI/LBE/RBI. She use to be RBE by learnt behavior but we got rid of that as much as possible. 

This is extremely hard because I DON'T want anyone else getting hurt. She has recently started to rear on the farrier, and the only way we can keep those feet on the ground is by distracting her with a treat hidden in someones hand. She NEVER did this for the first year I got her, she was always the farriers favorite. 

She NEVER does this with me, when I say never I actually mean never, I can hold her feet up all day in ANY position and she wont move a muscle.... when it comes to teh farrier she wont. I dont understand her.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> This is extremely hard because I DON'T want anyone else getting hurt. She has recently started to rear on the farrier, and the only way we can keep those feet on the ground is by distracting her with a treat hidden in someones hand. She NEVER did this for the first year I got her, she was always the farriers favorite.


She. Is. In. Pain.

This confirms it - The farrier is shoeing, nailing, banging her feet - Where she has roughage of the navicular bone. Of course she is rearing!

Have you not read the previous posts about chronic pain? She may be in no pain for most of the ride - Then it flares up, and she goes nuts.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

HorsesAreForever said:


> I could get ultra sounds and xrays jsut to know for sure, but then its like... what if there's nothing wrong.. or there is.. how much money am I throwing out there.


But if there IS something to be found...?? 
What has she been tested for? What does the vet think? Have you gotten a second opinion? I'm just throwing this out there: I'm not sure I'd trust a vet that says "oh she's got a navicular problem, but throw these shoes on and go back to jumping." 
Considering what she's done, and her symptoms, either she needs a FULL complete vet work-up, or she needs to be PTS. Right now she's unpredictable and, being quite frank, she's dangerous. 
Either there's something physical to be found that can be fixed (or at least you'd have an answer) or you'll be sure that she's got a mental issue.


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## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

I know you love this horse. BUT I think it is in her best interest to open your mind and take some advice. It sounds like you may have found the problem, ie navicular, but you are hurrying her recovery. You want something you can ride now. It's obvious that Chance is not ready to be ridden. No matter how sound you think she is, it's pretty obvious that there is SOMETHING going on in her hooves or legs. She is giving you all the right messages. PLEASE listen to her. Someone is going to get hurt if you don't.

I agree, if you want a riding horse now and don't want to wait for Chance to heal then put her down. Don't lie to someone and say that she is sound when she is not. You need to get a second or third opinion about what is wrong with her legs or hooves. Everyone keeps telling you the same things over and over but you aren't listening. 

I wouldn't have shoes put on her, I'd get her some boots. If I had broken toes I wouldn't want someone tapping on the bottom of my shoes.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

She did this even when simple trimming or when he cleaned out her feet, before the shoes or before she went lame. Its something with HIM I think. She also blew up like this before she have her navicular problem, it just added onto it. 

The vet did xrays, did a lameness exam at least 5 times, blocked her nerves etc etc etc basically. The shoes were the first simple option, she said if that didnt help she would do another set of xrays and Chance would probably get injections and an ultrasound meaning going to the Big equine vet office thing. 

I can take a video of her today on lunge and show you that she isn't showing any signs of being uncomfortable. I mean maybe im wrong, cause I dont have a trained eye but im going by Chances body language.

Its not that I dont want to wait for her to heal, im following the vets and farriers suggestions. I have other horses I can ride, Chance can wait if thats what was needed or was suggested. But it wasnt they suggested just getting her back into work as far as flat work goes.

But ill get video today and get some opinions of people on here.


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## kmdstar (Nov 17, 2009)

I'm sorry but this is RIDICULOUS. "my horse might be in pain...and I COULD have her checked for it...but....what if there's nothing?" OKAY? then it's something you can RULE OUT. I just can't get over how ridiculous this is. 

I can't believe you'd rather sell this poor horse or even put her to sleep rather than getting her checked for pain just because...she MIGHT not be in pain (which I HIGHLY doubt!!) What happened LAST time you had her checked? Oh yeah, she had a problem with navicular. Did that pay off? I believe it did. Has she been checked by a chiro, teeth floated, etc? You say she is so amazing on the ground but in the saddle she acts up. This is a red flag to have a chiro out and check her over and see how your saddle fits!

Here's something to think about, what happens when NO ONE can deal with Chance? The way you think it's kind of not worth it to check her for pain, someone else could end up with her that thinks it's not really worth it to put her to sleep...but at the same time not worth it to feed her. So then what? Since you apparently don't care to think of when she becomes a danger to others, think about what'll happen when no one has any use for her.

Surely you knew before you got her, HORSES ARE EXPENSIVE. Horses are accidents waiting to happen, they'll always manage to get hurt, someway somehow. If you don't feel like getting the necessary things done for Chance, you should get rid of her and NOT even CONSIDER getting another horse!

I've pretty much taken it from others and just observed your posts and stayed out, but really, I couldn't help it this time. :?


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## Hali (Jun 17, 2009)

I think you should get a second vet opinion.

Any horse at my stable that was diagnosed with navicular was promptly retired from jumping and heavy riding - just walking and MAYBE trotting. No ifs, ands, or buts. I would not trust a vet that ok'd heavy work right after a navicular diagnosis. Even with corrective shoeing, the horse should NOT be pushed to work heavily.


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## kmdstar (Nov 17, 2009)

wild_spot said:


> She. Is. In. Pain.
> 
> This confirms it - The farrier is shoeing, nailing, banging her feet - Where she has roughage of the navicular bone. Of course she is rearing!
> 
> Have you not read the previous posts about chronic pain? She may be in no pain for most of the ride - Then it flares up, and she goes nuts.


^^ ding ding ding.


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

JustDressageIt said:


> But if there IS something to be found...??
> What has she been tested for? What does the vet think? Have you gotten a second opinion? I'm just throwing this out there: I'm not sure I'd trust a vet that says "oh she's got a navicular problem, but throw these shoes on and go back to jumping."
> *Considering what she's done, and her symptoms, either she needs a FULL complete vet work-up, or she needs to be PTS. Right now she's unpredictable and, being quite frank, she's dangerous. *
> Either there's something physical to be found that can be fixed (or at least you'd have an answer) or you'll be sure that she's got a mental issue.


As far as second opinions go, my grandmother had an older (20+) grade TWH who they thought for years had navicular. The mare had corrective shoeing, navicular supplements, the whole enchilada. Turns out, years later, the poor mare had been foundering every spring. No navicular at all, after 2 vets, 3 farriers, and some specialist who deals with track horses and leg injuries had all diagnosed it and been treating for it. 

I agree 100% JDI, esp. with the bolded section.

Best of luck, HAF, sending e-hugs your way.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

HorsesAreForever said:


> 1) She did this even when simple trimming or when he cleaned out her feet, before the shoes or before she went lame. Its something with HIM I think. She also blew up like this before she have her navicular problem, it just added onto it.
> 
> 2) The vet did xrays, did a lameness exam at least 5 times, blocked her nerves etc etc etc basically. The shoes were the first simple option, she said if that didnt help she would do another set of xrays and Chance would probably get injections and an ultrasound meaning going to the Big equine vet office thing.
> 
> ...


1) From what I can recall, we have told you many times over the past year at least that Chance looked off...
2) Again, I repeat with the second opinion. 
3) You admit you don't have a trained eye... perhaps you're missing signals?
4) I'd get a second VET opinion. 
5) Getting her back into work =/= w/t/c and jumping 2 days after getting shoes on, and 3 weeks after the diagnosis. 

Sorry, I'm getting blunt.... I'm getting very frustrated.


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## bethsone (Feb 22, 2010)

I had a thoroughbred mare who did exactly the same thing as your describing chance does! She was very unpredictable fine one minute then completely off the rails bucking like a bronk out of control throwing herself and me into fences or the ground!! this mare was a very sweet mare on the ground and looked completely sound but would just lose it sometimes and on a number of occasions bolted' and wouldn't stop until she had ran out of puff!! He had her examined by a vet who said she was fine! we got a second opinion and found out that she had a long standing injury to her hip that meant she was in CONSTANT pain and it was only a matter of how much she could bare before it became to much for her!! She was not even suitable for breeding as the weight of carrying a foal would put her in more pain... my advice to you would be to VET check her again get her checked thoroughly because the last thing you want is her being put through unnecessary pain of someone trying to FIX her when she cant help it' Good luck


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> I can take a video of her today on lunge and show you that she isn't showing any signs of being uncomfortable. I mean maybe im wrong, cause I dont have a trained eye but im going by Chances body language.


I really feel like writing this on a brick and throwing it at you.

*She may be comfortable for the entirety of a ride - A few rides even. But pain can FLARE UP without warning. She doesn't have to be lame, or off, or in pain 100% of the time for this to be a pain issue. Can you really not see that this is the most logical explanation for her behaviour?
*


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

Okay, I'll be absolutely blunt - Chance is better off PTS than remaining in your "care".


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

wild_spot said:


> she. Is. In. Pain.
> 
> This confirms it - the farrier is shoeing, nailing, banging her feet - where she has roughage of the navicular bone. Of course she is rearing!
> 
> Have you not read the previous posts about chronic pain? She may be in no pain for most of the ride - then it flares up, and she goes nuts.




this!!!


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

bethsone said:


> I had a thoroughbred mare who did exactly the same thing as your describing chance does! She was very unpredictable fine one minute then completely off the rails bucking like a bronk out of control throwing herself and me into fences or the ground!! this mare was a very sweet mare on the ground and looked completely sound but would just lose it sometimes and on a number of occasions bolted' and wouldn't stop until she had ran out of puff!! He had her examined by a vet who said she was fine! we got a second opinion and found out that she had a long standing injury to her hip that meant she was in CONSTANT pain and it was only a matter of how much she could bare before it became to much for her!! She was not even suitable for breeding as the weight of carrying a foal would put her in more pain... my advice to you would be to VET check her again get her checked thoroughly because the last thing you want is her being put through unnecessary pain of someone trying to FIX her when she cant help it' Good luck


If you only read ONE reply here, HAF - read this one. Here's a person saying that she had the EXACT same problem with a horse. ONE vet said nothing's wrong. A second opinion turned up a MAJOR PROBLEM. 
Here you go, here's a FIRSTHAND testament that your vet CAN be wrong.. AND that it CAN be a chronic pain problem.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

I guess we all just don't understand why you're being so stubborn about this NOW? Members here told you for I don't know how long to get her checked over and when she finally was, she was diagnosed with Lyme disease, with Navicular...don't you think multiple people saying the same thing means something? I mean, you've pumped a lot of money and time into this girl, and shes shown you that she CAN be a nice horse and that all of her behavior is justified by something. If you're fed up with her cost of upkeep, maybe you should put her down or find someone whos willing to pay for the tests she needs and take her on as a project. But by not getting a second, or even a third vet opinion, the ONLY one you're hurting here is Chance.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Yikes - Okay. I have a few words to say to a few people but im really not going to because its only gonna make things worse. 

I got video of Chance on lunge today, Ill upload it and post it here so keep a look out for it. 

The problem with getting a second opinion would be that all the vets in my area pretty much work together. I can have Jefferson come out and look at her and tell him the problems we've been having as far as under saddle work. 

Id much rather pay a vet bill then have Chance PTS thank you very much.
But with my mom dieing and soon having to pay for funerals and things related its gonna be hard.. so maybe theres a REASON behind why?


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

^^I think you're mistaking the vets working together as all sharing the same opinions. There was a thread somewhere on the board about whether or not it was taboo in a multiple-vet practice to request a certain vet. Sure, the vets may be listed under the same practice, but they aren't required by any law to say "well, my colleague told you theres nothing wrong, so there isn't" in fact if they do that, I'd seriously consider finding a new vet _not _in your area to start working with. Most of the time, I think you'll find especially in large practices, theres at least one doctor who thinks yours is a crack pot.


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## paintsrule (Aug 20, 2009)

HorsesAreForever said:


> Id much rather pay a vet bill then have Chance PTS thank you very much.


Well, good. Thats what NEEDS to be done. Now get your butt in gear and get her checked because you should know full well that that will be the only thing that may save your mare, that and further education on your part.

Will you actually do what needs to be done though? It remains to be seen. You have pansy footed before while saying you were going to do everything in your power to save your horse and yet you still end up riding a diagnosed navicular horse that is clearly informing you of its pain. o.0.

Listening to these people has always been in both you and your horses best interest, especially now before you die or someone else does (maybe even Chance).


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

I'm sure it is what you would rather do, but whether or not you actually DO it will remain to be seen. I stand by my statement. The "care" you have given her (even - or especially - after the diagnosis) is not doing her any favors.


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## thunderhooves (Aug 9, 2009)

I am amazed by this thread. And the length of time it has taken for people to GET THROUGH TO YOU!
I also feel like putting this on a brick and throwing it at you.............. but I'm not a violent person, so maybe now a big brick..... :hide:

just for any outside people wondering, PTS means Put To Sleep.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

I agree with all who have said it's time to let go. Sometimes there is nothing that can be done. I have seen 2 horses with this similar problem...the first one died at age 3 because she had one of her fits while tied and busted 3 of her legs as well as sending her owner to the ICU for a week.

Horses who are mean still have their brain engaged, and are well in control. Horses that are afraid or seem to turn off their brain are not safe because they are not in control. There is nothing we can do about this. It is sad when it happens

I think you know in your heart and deep down what needs to be done, I saw it in your very first post of this thread. This is a major safety issue.


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## upnover (Jan 17, 2008)

HorsesAreForever said:


> Sandy I agree. I've risked my life A LOT of times and quite a few were close calls. Its been 2 years and I cant seem to get any further with Chance.
> 
> I am more then ready to let go of her now. I love her but I want to ride for fun again not wondering if Im gonna live through my next fall.
> 
> People at my barn actually are starting to ask if I came off of her during our ride everytime I ride her. It seems that everything is just escalating..


Quite honestly I think whether or not soundness is an issue is neither here nor there. HAF, we've been on this forum for a long long time. And all I know about you is you have a horse named Chance who is dangerous. Every post I've read from you is how Chance did this, Chance did that. And somehow you're still alive. And somehow you still own her. are there no people in your life who've said enough is enough??! Reading your posts are like hearing from that person with the abusive boyfriend who says "who cares if he beats me? he's sweet all the other days. he can't help it". SERIOUSLY?

Wouldn't you rather be remembered on the forum as "HAF, that poster with the really cool horse" rather then "HAF, thank God she's lucky enough to be alive at least one more day"? 

Let me recap this post above:

I've risked my life A LOT of times
quite a few were close calls. 
I cant seem to get any further with Chance. 
wondering if Im gonna live through my next fall. 
everything is just escalating..

Seriously? SERIOUSLY???


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

HAF, please read this: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/playing-hero-when-stick-when-realize-50485/
Thank you. This will be my last post.


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## sandsarita (Jan 20, 2008)

I have not read the entire thread, nor do I have a lot of knowledge about your prior issues, just what you wrote in your first post. I had a horse, also named Chance, that when I bought him as a 2yo he was the quietest, easier horse to get along with. I had him on my own for a while, got to the top ten at BIG qh shows his 3yo year in HUS. He got hurt in the pasture that winter, had surgery, and recovered. This was my last year of youth and I HAD to make it to the QH worlds. Switched from taking lessons with my trainer to leaving him at the trainers. Chance began to sull up, wouldn't move forward. Became very hyper and hard to control at shows. One day, I lunged for 2hrs just to get him around the pen in the HUS class. After that year was over, I moved out and just rode on my own. Issues with sulling up escalated. He went from throwing the occasional buck to just exploding out of nowhere, leaving many people in the warm-up pen (his favorite time for this) gasping wondering how I stayed on. He also started rearing up and kicking out on the ground to the point where I was terrified to lead him. 

I started working with a new trainer, hauling in for lessons and things seemed to be improving. His episodes became less frequent. Then he decided to pull it again in a class, something he had never done before. He was a danger to himself, me, and everyone in that ring. This trainer sat me down, said we have two options. Sell him to a killer, or get serious about it. He flat out told me that the horse might not survive the training process, but it was the only thing he had to offer me. I would be at the barn riding 3 days a week on everything he had there to make me the best rider I could be for the day I might be able to get on him. This was the first of June, he said to not plan on even considering getting on him until September, shows were out of the question until June next year. After spening numerous nights crying, I decided to do it. Dropped him off Monday, rode one of his horses. Wednesday I rode while he was riding Chance. Friday I was on Chance in the indoor, Monday in the outdoor arena, Wednesday in a 200 acre field. There was never a mark on my horse, he just had to have the law laid down for him. That September I was reserve for a saddle at a large show, and went on to have numerous successes with him. He is now packing an absolute beginner around the hunter courses. It took time to get him there, he still had occasional blow-ups for the first year, but they became fewer and farther between until he eventually became a very safe horse. For him, he was allowed to get away with stuff by the trainer and me. Once he was shown that he couldn't do that, and then given a job (switched from HUS to all-around and over fences) he settled down into a good boy.

The other part of this was that he had some health issues. As a two year old, we knew something was wrong but not what. The vet thought it was an allergic reaction. 3 yearold year seemed fine. Four year old year, he stopped sweating in the middle of the year - I had never seen that before. His 5yo year, the make or break-it June, was his worst. We finally got in with a vet who knew alot about anhydramnios and got him on a regimen that helped. I'm sure this also contributed to the problem, and also possibly the solution.

My advice to you is to get second opinions - from a vet, and from another reputable trainer in the area. I hope you find what you need to do, and it will be hard either way.

Kimberly


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## thunderhooves (Aug 9, 2009)

sandsarita said:


> I have not read the entire thread, nor do I have a lot of knowledge about your prior issues, just what you wrote in your first post. I had a horse, also named Chance, that when I bought him as a 2yo he was the quietest, easier horse to get along with. I had him on my own for a while, got to the top ten at BIG qh shows his 3yo year in HUS. He got hurt in the pasture that winter, had surgery, and recovered. This was my last year of youth and I HAD to make it to the QH worlds. Switched from taking lessons with my trainer to leaving him at the trainers. Chance began to sull up, wouldn't move forward. Became very hyper and hard to control at shows. One day, I lunged for 2hrs just to get him around the pen in the HUS class. After that year was over, I moved out and just rode on my own. Issues with sulling up escalated. He went from throwing the occasional buck to just exploding out of nowhere, leaving many people in the warm-up pen (his favorite time for this) gasping wondering how I stayed on. He also started rearing up and kicking out on the ground to the point where I was terrified to lead him.
> 
> I started working with a new trainer, hauling in for lessons and things seemed to be improving. His episodes became less frequent. Then he decided to pull it again in a class, something he had never done before. He was a danger to himself, me, and everyone in that ring. This trainer sat me down, said we have two options. Sell him to a killer, or get serious about it. He flat out told me that the horse might not survive the training process, but it was the only thing he had to offer me. I would be at the barn riding 3 days a week on everything he had there to make me the best rider I could be for the day I might be able to get on him. This was the first of June, he said to not plan on even considering getting on him until September, shows were out of the question until June next year. After spening numerous nights crying, I decided to do it. Dropped him off Monday, rode one of his horses. Wednesday I rode while he was riding Chance. Friday I was on Chance in the indoor, Monday in the outdoor arena, Wednesday in a 200 acre field. There was never a mark on my horse, he just had to have the law laid down for him. That September I was reserve for a saddle at a large show, and went on to have numerous successes with him. He is now packing an absolute beginner around the hunter courses. It took time to get him there, he still had occasional blow-ups for the first year, but they became fewer and farther between until he eventually became a very safe horse. For him, he was allowed to get away with stuff by the trainer and me. Once he was shown that he couldn't do that, and then given a job (switched from HUS to all-around and over fences) he settled down into a good boy.
> 
> ...


But Chance never WAS mentally sound. She had been acting up from when she got him.


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## jagman6201 (Mar 13, 2009)

Well, just from what I've read; and I've skimmed through your multiple threads about Chance--IMHO I think euthanizing her would be in the best interest of Chance.

From what I've gathered, you want a horse that you can ride--that is a very understandable request; and Chance, well might never be that horse.

You know for a fact that she has been diagnosed with navicular which is a life-long chronic pain which can be MANAGED, but does not go away completely. In other words, Chance is in pain 24/7--she may have managed to deal with it and has accepted the pain and is able to work through it (such as how you describe that she physically does not look in pain), but that does not change the fact that her navicular bone and the surrounding tissue is DEGENERATING. I know this pain fully; I have bone-degenerative disease on the middle of both balls of my feet which is essentially the same as navicular. The tissue on the bottom of my feet have degenerated away and my bone is now following. Some days, it does not bother me at all, but others--it flares up without warning and I am in continuous pain. I can relieve the pain by sitting or laying down for most of the day, but Chance; she cannot. She has to stand on those poor, painful feet and sometimes, she is pushed to work by you. Imagine that...

You obviously care for Chance since you've stuck with such an unpredictable horse for so long, but the most kind thing you can do for her is to maybe end her suffering before it becomes even worse. 

If I had the chance to have put down my older gelding, I would have in a heart beat. Sar, my arabian gelding was 29 when he died in a horrific accident. He had a history of having random seizures which made him unsafe to ride so I adopted him for a companion to my other horse. Sar was a great horse and for 98% he was a happy, healthy retired horse. But, as he got older. His seizures got more frequent and severe. I put off PhTS because I thought it wasn't fair to him to end his life just because of those few minutes every couple months he would have a seizure. But, one early winter day he had a seizure in his pasture; he slipped in some mud and went down, casting himself in a gate. I found him while he was still struggling (no longer seizing though) and it would have been easy to free him because I could have just opened the gate, but when he went down his head was wedged between the gate and the wood post and essentially was being hung by the chain latch. All his weight was on that latch and I couldn't get it unhooked because of it. It was so deeply embedded that it had cut him and he was now bleeding profusely. I was alone at the barn and was so helpless to help him--I watched my beautiful horse struggle for his last breath and watched the life leave his eyes and his now blue tongue hang from his mouth. It was completely devastating seeing him look up at me, his owner who had always been there to protect him; and he seem to ask why I wasn't helping him, why I wasn't making the pain go away. My biggest regret is not PTS when I found out about his seizures. 

I could have just led him out of the pasture, let him graze happily on some of the "forbidden grass" in the far corner of the property that was extremely sweet for a couple hours. Smoother him in treats and love and let him enjoy himself like a king. Then, the vet would come out, simply inject a painless liquid and he would fall asleep and be out of pain. Yes, it would have been ridiculously hard for me either way; but it would have been exceedingly kind for him.

Chance will be in pain for the rest of her life, and most likely it will get worse. You cannot reverse navicular, only slow it down. Wouldn't it be kind to her just to let her "fall asleep" and all her worries will drift away. It would be ridiculously hard for you, but in an objective opinion ask yourself if you think Chance will live a happy life or if she would be best to be let go.

No one can make that decision for you; but it is a decision to think about long and hard...


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Jag6201 said:


> If I had the chance to have put down my older gelding, I would have in a heart beat. Sar, my arabian gelding was 29 when he died in a horrific accident. He had a history of having random seizures which made him unsafe to ride so I adopted him for a companion to my other horse. Sar was a great horse and for 98% he was a happy, healthy retired horse. But, as he got older. His seizures got more frequent and severe. I put off PhTS because I thought it wasn't fair to him to end his life just because of those few minutes every couple months he would have a seizure. But, one early winter day he had a seizure in his pasture; he slipped in some mud and went down, casting himself in a gate. I found him while he was still struggling (no longer seizing though) and it would have been easy to free him because I could have just opened the gate, but when he went down his head was wedged between the gate and the wood post and essentially was being hung by the chain latch. All his weight was on that latch and I couldn't get it unhooked because of it. It was so deeply embedded that it had cut him and he was now bleeding profusely. I was alone at the barn and was so helpless to help him--I watched my beautiful horse struggle for his last breath and watched the life leave his eyes and his now blue tongue hang from his mouth. It was completely devastating seeing him look up at me, his owner who had always been there to protect him; and he seem to ask why I wasn't helping him, why I wasn't making the pain go away. My biggest regret is not PTS when I found out about his seizures.
> 
> I could have just led him out of the pasture, let him graze happily on some of the "forbidden grass" in the far corner of the property that was extremely sweet for a couple hours. Smoother him in treats and love and let him enjoy himself like a king. Then, the vet would come out, simply inject a painless liquid and he would fall asleep and be out of pain. Yes, it would have been ridiculously hard for me either way; but it would have been exceedingly kind for him.


OMG I'm soooo bawling my head off right now!!!!!


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Jag, I am so sorry to hear that  But it's a very good example of the typical human 'heart over head' emotional state. Why don't we put the horse down, when in our head, we KNOW it should be done? It's because we don't want to go through to emotion of putting an animal to sleep. It is purely out of selfishness and this is just human nature. The horse, do you think it is aware that it is being PTS???? Of course not! Give it a pat, some food, love it for a while and next second it's gone, horse is not even momentarily aware of it. I've always had mine shot, sounds bad, but its quicker than an injection, gives the horse no time to fight it.

In Chance's case. Either get a **** vet to come and give a second opinion (if you are that concerned about her and certain that you dont want her PTS) or just put her down and be down with it and move on. You can just sit in 'no man's land' for months on end umming and ahhing. She is costing you money and you're getting nothing out of it. If you're that strapped for cash put her down, save your money and get a horse that suits you when you're better off financially. CHANCE WILL NOT CARE!!!! She won't be aware of what is happening in the slightest.

And if you do get her vetted, and get told that she'll be unridable then what will you do? Keep paying for her upkeep as a paddock ornament? Try and sell her as a paddock ornament to someone else? As has been said multiple times in this thread, people don't pay for paddock ornaments unless they're absolutely superb to look at, or they're a cute little pony to keep their other horses company or the grass down. And then there's a very good chance that she'll end up getting passed around owner to owner and be dogged anyway (sorry to repeat my original post).

Please be sensible and use your head, not your heart, in this situation. Do it for Chance's sake, not your own.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

HorsesAreForever said:


> Id much rather pay a vet bill then have Chance PTS thank you very much.
> But with my mom dieing and soon having to pay for funerals and things related its gonna be hard.. so maybe theres a REASON behind why?


If your mom is dying then get rid of the horse any way you can and spend as much time as you can with your mother. Once she is gone there isn't any way to get the time back and you will regret every minute you didn't spend with her. 

If there is someone that wants to take your horse and try to fix her then let them try. It wouldn't be the first time that someone took a horse that was "unrideable" and turned it into a good solid mount. It seems to solve the problem you have with being able to ride her and also the problem you have with putting her to sleep. Then you can spend more time with your mother while you look for another horse.

I wish I could say this is the last time I will offer advice about Chance but I just can't seem to stop casting pearls.


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## sandy2u1 (May 7, 2008)

> If there is someone that wants to take your horse and try to fix her then let them try. It wouldn't be the first time that someone took a horse that was "unrideable" and turned it into a good solid mount.



I agree with Kevin on this. The trainer knows Chances problems and seems to think she/he can do something with her. She may see something you are totally missing. I sure wouldn't have her put down when you have a qualified trainer willing to work with her. 
​


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## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

Jag6201 said:


> Well, just from what I've read; and I've skimmed through your multiple threads about Chance--IMHO I think euthanizing her would be in the best interest of Chance.
> 
> From what I've gathered, you want a horse that you can ride--that is a very understandable request; and Chance, well might never be that horse.
> 
> ...


Oh my now I gotta go redo my makeup.


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## Wallaby (Jul 13, 2008)

I have a story about a mare that went bonkers randomly, without warning, and almost killed a little girl (like the horses hooves went into this girls armpits as the horse jumped on the little girl) but I'm not going to share the whole thing because sadly, I have a feeling like it won't be read. But, basically the gist of it is that this mare was sent to an auction for an unknown reason, bought by an outfitting company to be ridden by little kids since it looked calm on the ground, but it almost killed a kid instead of being a reliable mount like we thought.

I applaud you for realizing you need to get Chance into a different situation, where she won't be ridden.
However, if you aren't willing to get a complete work up with xrays and all that from at least one other vet, I really think being PTS might be in her best interest. I know that's a hard decision to make but with the economy like it is and so many horses going to auction without any information, do you really want Chance possibly hurting (or killing) a child, someone's pride and joy, because you were too selfish to just put her down? IMO a child's life is way way more important than a horse's, no matter how loved the horse is. Especially at her age, you can never predict what will happen to her in the next 20-25 years.

I still can feel the terror I felt when I was helplessly watching that mare almost kill that girl. Her mother wasn't there, thankfully, I can only imagine the fear and pain she would have felt seeing her daughter go through that. 
Please please please do everything technology allows to figure out exactly what's wrong with Chance, or please put her to sleep. 

Another thought I just had is, do you have a reputable horse rescue near you? like a seriously reputable one? Not just a "we rescue purty ponehs" place but an accreddited, reputable one? I know there's a rescue near me that will help owners place horses and then the rescue will do yearly checks and all that so that they can be sure she's not being ridden etc. That might give you more security that she's going to stay in good hands, instead of having to just trust someone.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Jag, my deepest condolences. My best and brightest started having random seizures at age 24, and I retired him. 

At 25, he had a really bad seizure and fell and broke his pelvis. I knew when I picked up the phone, that it was probably the last vet call I'd ever make for this horse.

He had another seizure and went down again while the vet was there, and I made the decision to let him go.

It was the hardest and yet easiest thing I've ever had to do. I'm convinced he was dying anyway, and the vet just helped make it faster.

I have another one who's a ticking time bomb because of his health, and I'm watching him carefully. Before he gets to the point where his life will be nothing but misery, I'll let him go.

Physical _or_ mental issues that make a horse miserable should not be dragged out just because the _human_ doesn't want to face the heartache. Releasing them from their pain and confusion is all that matters.

I knew many years ago that in owning animals I would have to make decisions that didn't include _my_ emotional distress in the equation. It sucks and it hurts, but if you're not willing to do what's right by the animal, then you shouldn't own any. Because when they're hurting, it ain't about YOU.


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## sandy2u1 (May 7, 2008)

This horse doesn't sound like to me she is standing around in pain. The OP just posted recently that she was jumping her! If a horse is sound enough to withstand jumping then she can darn sure handle being retrained or being someones pasture ornament. If the OP goes the pasture ornament route, then she needs to disclose in writing what is wrong with Chance, her problems under saddle and that she is selling her as a pasture ornament (not to be ridden) and have the new owner sign it. After that, the OP is no longer responsible for what the new owners are "tempted" to do. I see horses all the time being sold as 'must have experienced rider'. So if someone buys a horse like that and takes it home and puts a child on it and it kills the child...is the seller responsible in that situation? Of course not...the seller made it clear that horse needed an experienced rider. How is selling a horse as a pasture ornament that is not to be ridden any different (and of course, informing the buyer of all her problems)? As for the argument that Chance may wind up going to the meat market...there is a risk of that for any horse you sell, I don't care how good they are, especially in today's economy. There are plenty of good horses that are slaughtered every day. If Chance were to wind up going to the meat market in ten years, what makes people think she would not have wanted those ten years of life. That being said however, I still lean towards giving her a chance to be retrained since she is only 6.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

I have to post in response to Sandy:
many horses will preform while in pain. A lot of horses won't show that they're in pain until it's intolerable. Some horses will "suck it up" until they explode from being in pain. Have you ever had chronic pain issues? One day, one hour, you might be fine ("fine" being relative) and the next day or hour you're doubled over in pain or riding the couch for the next few hours with a painkiller and an ice pack. Yesterday I couldn't climb the stairs because I was in so much pain from my knee. Today I can walk the dogs around the block, and climb the stairs with less pain than yesterday. Today is a relatively "fine" day for me - doesn't mean I'm doing great, but to my friends and family, I'm moving a lot better today than I was yesterday. 
Horses are prey animals... show that you're in pain or lame or weaker than the others, and you're dinner for someone. 
Denny has a (very slight) suspensory injury. When I went to catch him from the field the other week for the vet, he was _galloping_ around the field all by himself for 10 minutes straight. He was running, bucking, farting around, and yet all on a strained suspensory. Please do not tell me that just because a horse isn't consistent in showing symptoms doesn't mean that they're injured - that has been disproven time and time again.
This mare sounds like she's in chronic pain. On and off lameness (I recall a video a year or so ago where we all urged HAF to have a vet out, she looked lame, and that has continued), blowing up seemingly "randomly" but consistently... I would be willing to bet that this mare has something wrong somewhere. 
I would hate to be associated with selling a dangerous horse. Like you said, even good, sound, young, ridable horses are going to slaughter now... so why put a dangerous, "unridable," lame horse on the market? The odds are stacked against her from the get-go. There have been many, many good points brought up in this thread pertaining to exactly that.


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## Squeak (Apr 8, 2010)

Coming from somebody with a "problem" mare, I have to say this does not sound like your typical "off" horse. I'm going with the general consensus here.

I did not read through your other posts, but have you at least made sure your saddle fit? Her teeth are floated? Something triggers her under saddle, and to me it doesn't sound like fear or her just being mentally unstable. It definitely sounds like pain.

My mare has her days where she's fine and her days when she's not. When i got her she was not safe on the ground. She is now safe on the ground almost all the time, but you take a chance when you get on her back. However... I had her saddle fitted. I had her teeth checked. I had probably, gosh i don't even know... 5 or 6 different veterinarians look at her. I took her to a specialist (i live in the middle of nowhere) 4 hours away. I took her to trainers, i took her to lessons, i sent her off to training. Never once did i resign myself to "My horse is just crazy." Never. That had to be drilled into my head. I didn't WANT to accept that. I was determined that something else was wrong. It seems like you're doing the exact opposite here. My $400 horse turned into a $8,000 horse. I was a college student working at a grocery store. I begged and borrowed (didn't steal, but i may have considered it a time two!) money. Over the course of 5 years my horse *is* better, but she has a hormone problem. There is really no way to come to this conclusion besides process of elimination. She is now 15 and has calmed down considerably, but she's not 100% safe (not that any horse ever is) and I just have accept that. Yesterday, i rode her bareback (which i have never done) and she was a dream. Acted like a pony who did it every day, didn't blink an eye. But tomorrow she could try to plow me into a tree. All depends on what "point" she's at in her cycle, or so we think. I still refuse to accept that my horse is loony. Hormonal is a better tag for her, i think.

When you described her behavior after jumping... okay so she goes over the same fence 3 times and then goes to go over it again, and when she lands... she's saying "**** it, that HURT!". After 3 jumps i'm sure she couldn't stand it any more. Navicular is always an issue, i would actually quite frankly _never_ jump a navicular horse. Ever.

This horse was diagnosed with navicular. Shoes or no shoes, she is in pain. I would bet my best boots on it.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Squeak, thank you for your input. I'm sorry you had to spend so much time, effort, and money on finding out what's wrong with your horse, but bless you for doing it.


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## NittanyEquestrian (Mar 3, 2009)

I just thought I would add my $0.02 into the fray. I have had navicular horses and I have put down navicular horses. I have also rehomed navicular horses. 

One was just about the sweetest mare you will ever meet but she was dangerously navicular. If we kept her pain free she would stumble, trip and fall continuously because she really couldn't feel her feet. If we let her feel her feet she would hobble around 50% of the time and be "ok" the other half of the time. I wish to this day I had put her down long before I did because I knew that she was suffering but I couldn't bear the thought of losing her as she was my first horse and for some stupid reason my vet didn't make me face reality. 

Flash forward a few years and I bought a really well bred QH mare. She was smart, she was athletic, cowy and was going to be my 4-H and team penning mount. She vetted clean and we bought her and took her home. A few months later she started getting really choppy and unbalanced in her trot and canter. Not off, just moving weird and very uncomfortable to ride. Had the vet out, after a lot of diagnostics we found out that she had been nerved. Not all of her nerves had been severed but the ones to the navicular bone had been and a few of them had started to regrow oddly. Which is what we assumed was the cause of the random changes in gait and balance. She had less changes to that bone than some sound horses we knew but it made sense. We were floored. She was 100% pasture sound but totally uncomfortable to ride and uncomfortable being worked even though she felt "no pain". We sold her as a broodmare because she was so well bred and athletic with a disclaimer about her feet, why we thought it had been done and that it could be genetic. She was also sold with a clause that she not be ridden. She lived her life happily making babies and lived well into her 20s. None of her babies to our knowledge had feet or leg problems, but her studs were carefully selected for good feet and legs. 

A client of mine a few years ago came home with a horse that vetted out alright. He was in his early teens, was going to be used for WP and trail for herself and her kids. He had minor changes to his navicular bones and vetted 100% sound. Long story short...after just a year he was dead lame with classic navicular signs. The consensus is that he had a high pain tolerance and didn't show signs of pain until it became unbearable and started with him getting trippy and dragging his feet. Her vet and others urged her to put him down but she couldn't do it. She nerved him instead and continued to trail ride him and let her kids ride him. He stumbled one day and fell with her daughter on him in a manicured ring and pitched the girl into the fence. Thank god for helmets, the girl walked away with a nasty concussion and a black eye. She put him down later that week and she swears his eyes were saying thank you when he went with his head in her arms. 

Currently I know an owner that has a breeding stock paint mare that was semi-rescued. Was originally purchased to be a lesson/grandkids horse but went lame a few months after arrival. She showed signs of navicular changes in all 4 feet when xrayed, was dead lame and living on bute just to be semi pasture sound. The mare is pushy, unmannered and would need serious re-schooling to be a lesson/kids mount even if she was 100% sound. The vet's suggestion was humane euthanasia. The owner refused and took her home to try a combination of bute/shoes and pads and herbal supplements. The mare was relatively pasture sound on bute, with the shoes and pads last fall and drastically improved over the winter months. Loping around on occasion, 100% sound at the walk and only slightly off at the trot. The bute was discontinued and the mare was put in a natural inflammation and pain relieve of yucca, devil's claw and B-12. The owner deemed it a miracle but I cautioned them to wait until the spring thaw and see how well she continued to do. As soon as spring came and the snow and cold dissipated so did the mare's joy de vivre. She is now back to laying down more often, camping out and shifting her weight a lot when standing. Not to mention less than 100% sound at the walk. I also believe she may have other problems in her hip or stifle as well but that is a moot point since she's not sound up front either. If this was my mare she would have been put down when the navicular diagnosis was confirmed. 

My point is that sometimes they can go on and have a decent quality of life as a pasture puff or breeding stock, etc. But most often that is not the case. If your mare is 100% pasture sound without drugs and low maintenance needs and is as good on the ground as you say she is then maybe it would be ok to rehome her as a companion or to a person who doesn't want to ride but loves ground work. However, think about this. Would you be able to live with yourself if you rehome her to the perfect home and then for some reason they rehome her to another home and someone gets hurt or killed because they try to ride her and some of her history got lost in the rehoming process? Sometimes the best thing we can do for our animal friends is to end their misery and suffering and/or to prevent them from being dangerous to others.


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## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

sandy2u1 said:


> This horse doesn't sound like to me she is standing around in pain. The OP just posted recently that she was jumping her! If a horse is sound enough to withstand jumping then she can darn sure handle being retrained or being someones pasture ornament. If the OP goes the pasture ornament route, then she needs to disclose in writing what is wrong with Chance, her problems under saddle and that she is selling her as a pasture ornament (not to be ridden) and have the new owner sign it. After that, the OP is no longer responsible for what the new owners are "tempted" to do. I see horses all the time being sold as 'must have experienced rider'. So if someone buys a horse like that and takes it home and puts a child on it and it kills the child...is the seller responsible in that situation? Of course not...the seller made it clear that horse needed an experienced rider. How is selling a horse as a pasture ornament that is not to be ridden any different (and of course, informing the buyer of all her problems)? As for the argument that Chance may wind up going to the meat market...there is a risk of that for any horse you sell, I don't care how good they are, especially in today's economy. There are plenty of good horses that are slaughtered every day. If Chance were to wind up going to the meat market in ten years, what makes people think she would not have wanted those ten years of life. That being said however, I still lean towards giving her a chance to be retrained since she is only 6.



There is a big difference between "needs an experienced rider" and all of the issues that she has had with Chance. This has been going on for a long time and personally I think Chance is a danger to herself and those who choose to ride her. I know I would be devastated if Hunter turned out to be like that, but you really need to put the horse first and what is best for them.


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## sandy2u1 (May 7, 2008)

I know that a lot of you posting are very smart horse people and I have no business arguing with you, so I'm going to shut up. After this post :lol:. Something feels 'off' about this whole situation though. Just reread the OP's other posts. I would bet my best boots that some of you know exactly what I mean. I won't be spelling it out for you because I don't want to offend anyone. 
I also want you to take one more thing in before you tell the OP to put the horse down:
Navicular Horse Disease Diagnosis


> Many diseases can mimic navicular disease besides sore or bruised heels. Chronic heel collapse is another, as is a torn deep flexor tendon at the point where it inserts into the coffin bone. Simple stress and strain from overwork can result in a horse showing the symptoms of navicular disease. The soft tissues around the navicular bone can also be strained, such as the impar ligament or the suspensory ligaments surrounding the bone. The coffin joint can also become inflamed. The list is long and this is not a complete list of things which share the symptoms of navicular disease, which is why it is important that the veterinarian not jump to this diagnosis without more tests.
> 
> No one test can definitively diagnose true navicular disease. A diagnosis is made by performing a series of tests--hoof tests, nerve blocks, x-rays, stress tests, bone scans--and reviewing all the results to find the most likely cause of the horse's lameness. Studies are progressing regarding the use of ultrasound or MRI to help veterinarians to determine what is going on inside the foot.
> 
> Many veterinarians will not diagnose navicular disease until the horse has failed to respond to any treatment for at least ninety days. Keeping all this in mind might help if your veterinarian diagnoses navicular disease after only a cursory examination.


Heres some more articles just so you know that I'm not getting my info from just one place:
Navicular syndrome.
Horse navicular disease

At least get a 2nd opinion before having the horse put down if that is the route you decide to go!!


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

HorsesAreForever said:


> She did this even when simple trimming or when he cleaned out her feet, before the shoes or before she went lame. Its something with HIM I think. She also blew up like this before she have her navicular problem, it just added onto it.


I shall play along and go with what you are saying. 

If the issues are not the navicular and her manners are getting dangerous on the ground (where they have been good all along for every thing else, right?) when dealing with this farrier, why the heck are you still using this farrier?

Why have you not found a different farrier that your mare does not react to?

I am guessing it is because you deep down realize it is not the farrier, right? Otherwise, a responsible horse owner, which you say you are, would have done what is best for their horse and found a farrier that their horse got along with.


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## Squeak (Apr 8, 2010)

I don't necessarily believe the horse should be put down. I know people like me are few and far between. I rescue animals. If they are animals that have some kind of issue that isn't fixable, they stay. I firmly believe animals are for life. I would keep my mare unless she became so dangerous peoples lives are at risk. At one point, they were. She was extremely dangerous. It was a mixture of whatever is going on with her hormones, and neglect/abuse. She was an extreme case and still, she's here. She probably always will be. I understand others may not feel this way, and I don't fault them for their decisions.

However, I don't want the OP to classify her horse as being mentally unstable. Coming from somebody whose vet calls her horse "The Loon" lol In my opinion, judging by what i've read here... I do not think that is the case at all.

ETA: The mare i am talking about is the one in my Avatar picture. Does she look crazy? No. Did i eliminate every other possible reasoning for her behavior? Yes, and then some. The OP needs to broaden her mind a little bit to all the possible causes before saying her horse is crazy and needs put down.


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## romargrey (Apr 11, 2010)

new opinion: the video gives me a view of a possible structural pelvic instability. she appears to have a better excursion from one hip to the other. she does not come midline under herself on the lunge line and if she can't do that without a rider she won't be able to carry a rider comfortably. 
As for bolting, pain does funny things to an imbalanced horse . they respond to pain in different ways and in no way does it confirm her ability to move in a scary or reactive situation whether it is perceived or real pain or now a combination of both since this has become a chronic issue . You need a pro who understands structural instability for rehab. The unpredictable nature may come from her inability to take a balanced step under herself. proceed with caution


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

First she IS off in the rear. You can see it in both the trot and lope. You can see it in the hip when she moves. I would bet that the saddle is hitting something that hurts her. Only way to really know is have her x-rayed and to do that it means taking her to a large vet school as most vets do not have the equipment to do it. The last horse I had done cost about $1500 but that was everything hocks, stifles, hip, legs, feet. Always good to know what is going on.

I also use a Chiro/bioscan pro who is very good. Keep in mind that they are not all created equal so you should not necessarily use them for diagnostics.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

I have not read all the posts yet, but just some input here... 

I havent chose a new farrier, because I believe I have to use the barns farrier, there 2 men.. and thinking back now... at the old barn the farrier was a female, and Chance was perfect for her. But we figured out how to keep her feet on the ground by distracting her with the thing she likes most, treats. The farrier is 100% happy with doing what ever works for Chance. Even with her little problem he seems to really like us. haha. 

Chances teeth got floated by the vet when she got her last check up. I have a wintec for a saddle so its slightly hard to fit. I know shes a medium... but the wintec medium just doesnt seem to want to work for her. Im starting to think she needs a custom made saddle. idk. Chance is off in the back because she has nerve damage from when she was younger, she slipped under a trailor when her owners tried to force her into a trailer... when she tries to bring her legs back out she practically peeled her leg like a banana I heard.

I talked to a close friend and she mentioned about Chance's problem under saddle. She believes Chance goes catatonic when riding. Almost just like going inside herself... out of fear. This made A LOT of since to me because she does act very calm and low headed.. then all of a sudden just wakes up and thats when she explodes. I read about it and thats what happens... a lot of catatonic horses are just ticking time bombs. 

My friend suggested doing mostly ground work then start getting on her for 10-15 mins and slowly build up and get her confidence back. The fear may be because I have ALWAYS expected a lot from her.. and I think maybe I pushed her over her limit so she got unconfident which turned into fear. And or... when she was saddle broke she just had a lot of bad experiences and thats what she relates riding to. Chance has had a lot of mental damage and I havent always put that into consideration when riding. 

I want to try this option and see where we end up. It just may be what Chance needs.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

The vet did say something seemed to be going on in her hips.. like the way she swings them... 


I need to have the vet come out and give her her shots, so Ill have her do another exam on her aswell. Maybe some x-rays.


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

I don't suppose you got the body protector I reccommended? If you're going to keep her and work her then you may as well have some protection.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

I am getting one actually!  I just need to find one that isn't like $90

Also, Chance does NOT have navicular. She has roughage ON the navicular bone. It may and or not be perminate. My farrier actually wants to take off the shoes in a couple of months for a bit and see how she does. But id want to get x rays and stuff before I do that.


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

Good, good. They feel a bit strange at first but they work and they're good.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

HorsesAreForever said:


> The vet did say something seemed to be going on in her hips.. like the way she swings them...
> 
> She has roughage ON the navicular bone. It may and or not be perminate.


I still don't understand why she's being worked at w/t/c and jumping when you don't know she's completely sound or have been tipped off that she likely has a problem that needs to be dealt with.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

*sigh* round and round and round we go.


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

JustDressageIt said:


> I still don't understand why she's being worked at w/t/c and jumping when you don't know she's completely sound or have been tipped off that she likely has a problem that needs to be dealt with.


Gee, what part of that doesn't make absolute sense to you (where is the head/desk smilie when you need one)?


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## Cougar (Jun 11, 2009)

I thought I'd tell you about my mare Shaddy. She was a brilliant riding horse. You could ride her without any tack up and down any terrain. She was an angel. One day she threw me and was sour to ride after that. She was sound, nothing was out, she didn't wear tack so it couldn't have been that. Six months later her tumors started to show up. She doesn't just have ugly tumors. She has active cancer. The mare was telling us something was off and had I not listened I may have hurt us both.

Some times your pride needs to take the back burner and find out what the true root of the problem is. If she really is such a softy on the ground, I'm curious to know what causes her to blow up under saddle to that point. I've ridden my fair share of poorly behaved horses that needed an attitude adjustment. But Shaddy was not a horse who would put a foot wrong. She was in serious discomfort.

This was not your typical case of horse has back/leg/teeth problems. This was something else. She now has huge tumors in her mouth and around her genitals but they are no longer active. Some times there is more going on internally than you think.


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