# Mare Holds Head Way To High



## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

You don't need equipment. You need to develop timing and feel. She IS raising her head to avoid the bit. That's why horsees do that. Teach her to give to pressure and don't release the pressure until her head is where you want it. If you pull on the reins and then release when her head comes up then you are training her to go around with her head in the air and her back hollow.


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

It is true that horses that hold their head high can end up causing trouble just because they're less under control, so its good to nip this in the bud. Your mare is young and most likely fairly green, but there are some things you can to do teach her to carry her head lower.

*a) *well first off, the general rule is 'back to front', meaning that in order to get her to carry her head nicely, you need to make sure she's carrying her front end nicely. To do that, is to make sure she's collected, and is working in a small 'box' area. Her hind legs shouldnt drag behind her, she shouldnt look like she's reaching up too much, and her butt should be straight behind you. (her not swerving her butt around as she moves like a bumper car.) Most of these things really just need a good trainer to help you with, as it takes time. Once she has her hind end nice and collected, her front end is automatically going to collect also. That's going to bring her head not only down- but into a rounded form. This will keep you in control of her, and all together make her look very nice. Remember that this can take a very long time, especially on a young horse without a trainer. But collection is the key. Its not just a matter of getting her head down to make her look nice, its getting it rounded. 

*b*) another idea is martingales, if once you have her rounded and such she's still carrying her head a bit high. You'll need professional advice to see exactly what she'll need, and how to use it- but a running martingale might help you correct her problem. Give her some slack anytime that she puts her head down nicely, and keep it just tight enough to be uncomfortable when her head is above your shoulders.

*c)* lastly, a change in bridle might also help her become more sensative to you, and want to flex her neck muscles more. A hackamore that directly applies pressure to her nose may work better than a snaffle, or curb- because it's less harsh and instead of pulling at her mouth, it will be pressing downwards on the bridge of her nose- thus making her want to drop her head. A Bosal hackamore might be a good ide.a


Still, its all a matter of how rounded she is. Even with a martingale AND a hackamore, she' still may not lower her head because she isn't set well. The fancy tack might keep her looking OK, but they wont solve the problem. Get with a trainer and work on her form. I promise you that it will make a difference for both of you.


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## GeenasGQ (Dec 22, 2010)

I know a lot of people use a training fork to get their horses head down but the problem is typically only temporarily fixed because the horse learns to rely on it. I see this as a starting point but it's not a perminant fix because when you take it off, you won't have another way of putting her head down.

I'd find a way to teach her to put her head down by rein or leg. At my barn we use a one-rein head down where you pick up on a rein with one hand and bring it up against their neck without crossing over to the other side. slowly increase pressure and as you increase pressure, move your hand/rein closer to your horse's head. when she drops her head, release the pressure and rein. you can use a little leg to push her into her headset too if you want. it depends on if you want her to rely on rein or rein and leg. with this, with young horses, you want to make small steps (so an inch down with the head is okay) and then once she understands, start expecting more of her by lowering her head where you want it and have her hold it there by asking her multiple times in a row if she jerks her head up.

other people use a two handed head down cue by picking up on both reins (works best if you ride one handed) and giving their horses a little squeeze forward to push themselves into the headset and release when they drop their head.

There's also the see-saw method where you just see-saw with your hands (squeeze right, release, squeeze left, release and repeat really quickly, stop when they put their head when you want it.) but I don't see the point of this really besides it CAN be less noticeable to a judge if you do it correctly. if you do it wrong, it's REALLY obvious you are doing it. 

I've also seen people just pick up contact on their horse and push them into the bit and just expect them to learn that that is where they want their head to be. 


the see-sawing and the training fork would probably be the easiest solutions but both of them tend to fail in the long run, at least in my experience. the others will take quite a bit of work, but you will have a set cue for her to put and keep her head down for you instead of a slight chance she will keep it down.


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## Zeke (Jun 27, 2010)

I'm with Kevin, no special equipment. I also have to strongly caution you against sea-sawing, horses tend to sway their heads back and forth and it's ugly to watch a rider do so and it just doesn't always help...The first barn I rode at sea-sawed, and yes I was sucked in too, just word to the wise, don't do it!

I suggest giving firm even pressure to the bit with both reins (pulling back and a tad up) while driving forward with your legs and seat. Do not release until your mare gives, as soon as she does release all pressure. Everytime she breaks her head set, repeat the process. Even if you have to ask for a correcton every few seconds, keep asking and never just hold your horses head in place. I had a trainer who said something along the lines of, you have to let the horse make the mistake so you can go in and correct them. That way they learn right from wrong on their own. You also encounter a little less fighting sometimes then with the horses who are tied down.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BuckOff (Apr 14, 2010)

This is actually very very helpful. I suppose she could be trying to avoid the bit, but I think she is very high strung as well. I have tried the sea sawing method, and it seems insufficient and confusing for I back her up with a similar cue. I will try Zeke's method, but could someone explain collection for me? And how it is done


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

BuckOff said:


> I have tried the sea sawing method,


I hope the sea sawing method isn't what I think it is? Please tell me you aren't doing that to your horses mouth?

I agree with Kevins response and here is an article on true collection that you might find informative. 

http://www.equinestudies.org/true_collection_2008/true_collection_2008_pdf1.pdf

It is not something that you understand instantly but something that you work hard at. Also, whilst running martingales/training forks certainly have their function, that function is NOT to lower a horses head. They are used for horses that throw their head intermittently to prevent the rider from being hit in the face. If adjusted correctly they will not help with a horse that simply carries its head high.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Zeke said:


> I'm with Kevin, no special equipment. I also have to strongly caution you against sea-sawing, horses tend to sway their heads back and forth and it's ugly to watch a rider do so and it just doesn't always help...The first barn I rode at sea-sawed, and yes I was sucked in too, just word to the wise, don't do it!
> 
> I suggest giving firm even pressure to the bit with both reins (pulling back and a tad up) while driving forward with your legs and seat. Do not release until your mare gives, as soon as she does release all pressure. *Everytime she breaks her head set, repeat the process. Even if you have to ask for a correcton every few seconds, keep asking and never just hold your horses head in place. *I had a trainer who said something along the lines of, you have to let the horse make the mistake so you can go in and correct them. That way they learn right from wrong on their own. You also encounter a little less fighting sometimes then with the horses who are tied down.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


While I agree with the method I bolded the part that I have a small issue with. When you first start doing this you need to ask for your horses head for only a few steps at a time and only a few times during your ride. Your horse needs time to develop the muscles needed to bridle up and get round through the back. As you do it more you can ask for it longer and longer.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

That article has a good explanation of what happens to the musculature along the neck if the head is artificially lowered on page 6.

Also it has sections for reining, cutting, gaited horses, race horses, jumpers, hunters as well as dressage so it is really worth reading no matter what you plan on doing with your horse.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

*Why does a horse run with it's head in the air?*

Hello OP,

THis seems to be the question you might ask yourself. It might be habit, it might be in some ways associated with the breed or build of the horse, or it MIGHT be painful saddle fit. So, that is one thing you want to be sure of before you go even one step farther.
The bit is another thing that might be causeing pain, thus an avoidance behavior. Not necessarily the bit, but the mouth if it's got any rough teeth or other issues.
Once that is clarified, then you can look at the giraffing as a pure behavior issus.

You got a lot of good advice and stuff about collection. Collection is all good and well but it comes farther down the line from what I percieve you are faced with right now. It is said that collection work from rear to front and this is true, but you cannot collect a horse if "the front door won't close". 
So, I think you need to have the horse bring its' nose down a little first and foremost. For one thing , as you said, you don't have very good control when the horse is going above the bit like that.
One good thing, however, it's easier to train a horse that comes above the bit to come to the bit, than it is to train a horse that comes behind the bit to come to the bit. 

I am of the camp that when she puts her head up, you lift one or both reins (but one with more contact than the other) and put on a steady resistance to her pull, ONE OUNCE more than she does. She will move around trying to find the way out of this resistance and when by chance she finds that dropping her nose (and be sharp to look for the tiniest drop that she might make) you reward her with a good release. You will have to do this many times. If she gets stuck and won't make a choice when faced with this pressure you put on her (or rather she puts on herself, because remember, it was she that put her head up in the first place) , if she gets stuck, help her by putting a little leg on which will get her to move forward and thus put her nose down,

Work on this and only this for awhile. Practice it all the time. It is like Kevin said, you must develop real feel. Once you have this, it will be much easier to work the horse from back ro front because you will HAVE a front to work toward!


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## MudPaint (Aug 14, 2010)

headsets... :twisted:

What you are actually in need of is balancing. A horse that is carrying itself correctly, balanced and forward will have a natural lower head set. Now depending on your discipline, this may either be ideal for you or not. You always need to take in your horses conformation when determining if their high head is really a problem or something you must live with. My horse for example, ties in a bit high... he will always carry his head naturally above the vertical. But I can tell when he's on the bit and when he's resisting. To get him to drop his head, I must push him forward and encourage him to stretch down. 

If you are riding English... You need to be riding back to front. I have found the easiest way to encourage proper carriage is a lot of circle and serpentine work. Working the horse forward (not fast, just impulsion) and sponging your inside hand up to encourage the head down. Keeping your outside rein steady. You also need to be bending the horse around your leg. 

Western, I will apologize I have limited knowledge. I schooled horse learns to break at the poll with a curb bit. basically tipping his nose in, not dropping his head. However a western horse with proper breeding should be naturally built to carry his head long and low. For western I've seen the hold and release method used very commonly. Make sure you're using a snaffle though before moving to a curb. 

If this were my horse though, I would probably be looking into teeth and saddle fit first. Continuing your work on the line will also help build up the muscle memory for the correct carriage. 

There are a lot of exercises for a round carriage, but this is where I would start.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

There is no equipment in world (unless it's a problem with the fit or you force it down (which is a big no-no)), which would help you in this problem. Only consistent, correct training/riding, and it takes weeks and months to archive what you want. 

From _personal _experience I'd say find a good instructor to work with both of you. I couldn't overcome the same problem on my own even with all help I got on forum, from books, and on Internet in general, because I was too inexperienced to deal with something like that. Basically you have to make her working from behind and be round (and I'm horrible at explaining that ).


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## Ak1 (Mar 14, 2010)

Okay this is a very personal matter for me as I have the same problem with my 17.2h and imported PSG trained Holsteiner mare. Now, I'm not trying to brag , rather explain that with alll of the training she's had, she still does it. For her, it's not defiance, or pain or anything like that. We've had it all ruled out. She just does it sometimes and I'm guessing that she got away with it at some point in her horse childhood. You're right to nip it right in the bud, because it usually gets worse. 

I personally, -not speaking as a trainer here- recommend a running martingale. Use it to stop the really extreme rises of her head, JUST FOR A FEW WEEKS. Over those few week,s like tinyliny and kevinshorses said, develop a feel and ask for a bend. Instead of pulling, use your hands and ask for a frame and hold her in it. It is very common for young horses to be unbalanced and once and a while their head to rise, but not okay if it gets to the point that they just hold it up there- or try all of the time. So, after a few weeks when it improves, remove the running and start to maintain what you've developed.
Now the reason that I say yay to running instead of standing is that a standing martingale sometimes will put too much pressure on their head if they try to put it up while being unbalanced. 


ALSO, another good point is what kind of bit are you using? 
Hope that helops!


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

My experience is that it's a weak back first, bridle-avoidance second. Some horses have sensitive backs, maybe by the withers, maybe further back. I've seen this with big, strong horses; just like big, strong people can have a "tweaky back". My own horse was uncomfortable with a rider, not what I'd call pain, but she's not a stoical horse. I took a LONG time: first on the ground, teaching her to lower her head. When she got that, I'd do it at the halt and walk. It took much longer to get her to lower her head at the trot, and she's still not too good at the canter. It's easy for her to raise her head, so she does; but it CAN lead to a sore back, so you're right to try to stop this right away.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Ak1 said:


> I personally, -not speaking as a trainer here- recommend a running martingale.


I'm sorry to say that, Ak, but it's a "short fix", not a real training out of the habit, and artificial "head down" (especially if adjusted incorrectly, which unfortunately happens quite often) can lead to even worse problems than she's already having. 

My advise is still the same - good trainer (not necessarily for training per say, lessons very likely will be already enough). Good trainer can do miracles!


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## HalfPass (Jun 12, 2009)

To the OP.
My horse has recently been going through something similar and basically what has been working in Correct and consistent training and riding. 

I dont know what dicipline you ride but I suggest you get someone to ride and work the horse or instruct you while your on, or the combo of both of those to get things going. 

In the end you will be much happier and so will your horse.

The idea is to get the horse to learn how to carry themselves.

Trying to "hold" them in some sort of headset isnt the way to do it. As Kevin stated they are learning and need to develop to a point they can carry the position for longer and longer periods of time. It is a process and isn't going to happen over night.

Please get on the ground and in saddle training and instruction from a trainer that has much experience with young green horses.

Halfpass


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

> with my 17.2h and imported PSG trained Holsteiner mare. Now, I'm not trying to brag , rather explain that with alll of the training she's had, she still does it.
> 
> We've had it all ruled out. She just does it sometimes and I'm guessing that she got away with it at some point in her horse childhood.


Have you considered it being your seat to be the issue? I am going to say, if your horse has been to the PSG level, your horse is very capeable of self carraige, balance and development to carry her head accordingly.

Remember - our horses reflect 100% of what we are doing in the saddle. So I would look at you as the rider, to discover why your horse is giving you the answers you aren't asking.


> I'm sorry to say that, Ak, but it's a "short fix", not a real training out of the habit, and artificial "head down" (especially if adjusted incorrectly, which unfortunately happens quite often) can lead to even worse problems than she's already having.
> 
> My advise is still the same - good trainer (not necessarily for training per say, lessons very likely will be already enough). Good trainer can do miracles!


I agree - NO GADGET will fix this problem - but proper riding, thorough preperation and consistant work. 99% of errors that occur while in the saddle, are rider - not horse.

As Ian Millar states "A good rider blames themselves, where a poor rider blames their horse"

Great post HalfPass and Mudpaint.

~~~

1st, as you already said OP - your horse is 4. What possible muscle development could there be in a 4 year old, to aid your horse to beable to move properly, balanced with self carraige? I agree with you that there is nothign there to give you the results you are looking for, so you have to start from the ground up to obtain that ultimate goal you are looking for.

When building a house, one always starts with a strong foundation. With a strong foundation, the house lasts and withstands. So start out with a strong foundation, by developing the proper muscles and aiding your horse to beable to carry hersef/himself and to obtain balance.



> I lunge her with a surcingle, but when it comes to riding the head pops right back up.


The question is - what are you doing while you are in the tack, and what is it that you could possibly be not doing while in the tack? I am going to assume that you are the problem here, not the horse. If your horse is going around with her head lower on the lunge line *granted the sursingle and the side reins could be doing this* and when you are on her back, her head goes right up in the air. 

When our horses are going around with their backs dropped, and heads up high and not moving forward - there are reasons. Pain, as already suggested, evasion, and not having the proper muscles to obtain their backs to lift and lower their heads.

I have a friend who has a 17 year old TB gelding, who has been going around upside down for the majority of his life. At the time when I noticed we really didn't know one another very well, and I would watch the two of them, going around but I didn't say anything, until we got to know eachother. 

First, the rider must know how to ask the questions. If you do not know how to ask the questions, you are not going to get the answers. 

As Reiner Klimke states "It is not our horses job to learn to speak our language, but it is our job to learn to speak our horses language. It is our job, as the Trainer to know how to ask our questions as clearly and accurately as we can, so that our horses can better understand what it is that we are asking"

So back with my friend, I watched him go around - and A) He wasn't asking for engagement through his seat and his legs. B) He wasn't asking for his horses back to come up through his legs C) He was blocking his horses forward momentum with his stiff shoulders and arms D) He didn't have consistant, soft, giving contact and he was all over the place with his aids. 

So I got on his horse, and he was very stiff. Did not want to bend around my legs at all, very stiff neck and needed a lot of work. So I showed him stretches and exercises he needed to do to get his horse to stretch and relax.

Then I had him work on doing these stretches while in the saddle, including lots of circles, bending and serpentines ensuring that he uses an opening inside rein, supportive outside rein, bending his ribs around his inside leg and to make sure there is forward movement. 

I showed him how important it is to have a proper, lengthy warm up doing these exercises. Minimal 15 minutes before even moving to a trot. The important factors are, back lifted, engagement *tracking up*, relaxation, bending, stretches and not blocking that flow through a stiff, tense body.

Once he mastered those stretches and exercises and had a good warm up, I then introduced Long And Low - and exceptional exercise to aid your horse to develop the back muscles, so that they can eventually obtain self carraige.

Your horse cannot do any of this, without muscle development to do what it is that you are asking.

He is still working on it, and he gets some very nice moments, but then looses it. I tell him, remember what it is that you did exactly, to of recieved the result you wanted, and try to repeat. Sometimes he gets frustrated, resulting me in getting on his horse for him - the thing is, I can get the end result easily because I have my aids put together, but my friend cannot because he doesn't know how to put his aids all together to ask the questions.

He gets frustrated and blames his horse, but I have to stress that if I can do it, and he can't - then it is him, not his horse. So that makes him more dilligent to figure out what it is that he isn't asking, or to make his questions more clear. 

When he gets it, it is beautiful.

You must always set your horse up for success. 

I hope I made sense......it's Xmas Morning and the house is a Zoo right now, hard to focus and keep track of what I am typing.


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