# Horses vs mules for trail/packing



## thenrie

I know this is a horse forum, but I'm considering buying a couple mules for pack and saddle animals for a trip on the Great Western Trail. I was hoping to get comments from folks with experience with both horses and mules on the trial as pack and saddle animals. I have very little experience with mules, but what experience I have had has been good. Up until recently I have always packed horses.

Many of you are aware that I am planning a pack trip for 2015 on the Great Western Trail. I have started the process of collecting gear and getting plans laid. I am still not certain I have the right horse for this trip. If I decide she's just not the right animal, I may end up going with a mule as a saddle animal instead of a horse. Having a hard time with the decision, as I have always enjoyed the relationship I have with a horse. I have been told a good mule is like getting the best of a good horse and a good dog all in one. I think I would like that.

Your comments and advice would be appreciated.


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## Phly

Mules can be awesome. Some not so much. Just
Like horses. Mules can and will handle worse terrain then a horse
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## COWCHICK77

I was around mules some when I was younger(definately not an expert LOL), a guy that I started colts for when I was in high school was an 'ol mule skinner  He liked riding a horse, but packed mules. From what I understand mules will get attached to a horse rather than other mules. He used to ride a mare that he used as a "bell mare" and could turn them loose in a meadow at night and they would stick around.

Good Luck on your ride!


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## thenrie

COWCHICK77 said:


> I was around mules some when I was younger(definately not an expert LOL), a guy that I started colts for when I was in high school was an 'ol mule skinner  He liked riding a horse, but packed mules. From what I understand mules will get attached to a horse rather than other mules. He used to ride a mare that he used as a "bell mare" and could turn them loose in a meadow at night and they would stick around.
> 
> Good Luck on your ride!


I've read that (mules bonding with horses), which is why I am still considering riding the horse and buying two pack mules. I've also been told a mule will bond to it's handler, much like a dog does, if it is handled well. That intrigues me, as I tend to bond with my horses more than they bond with me:lol:. I suspect a lot of us do.

Also, I'm not totally convinced that a mule can handle tougher terrain than a horse. I've had horses in some mighty tough terrain that have handled it pretty well. I am pretty confident that if both horse and mule are trained similarly they are both pretty capable critters. I am aware, however, that mules have a different response to danger, which may make them a bit safer in difficult circumstances. From what I gather, a mule's response to danger is to freeze, whereas a horse's normal response is to RUN!!! I can think of a number of circumstances wherein that would definitely be a virtue.

Having said that, I know of one instance in which my brother-in-law (who used to own several mules) was riding with a friend looking for shed elk antlers. They rode down a gulley and came to a sharp dropoff of about 4 feet. My BIL's mule never hesitated, but simply slid his front legs down off the drop until he was sitting on his haunches and his front feet touched the bottom of the dropoff, then he slid his haunches off the dropoff. No problem and didn't even have to jump. His buddy on the horse had to go nearly a mile to go back and around the dropoff. Now, I don't think my horse would do it quite as slick as that, but I'm pretty sure I could get her to hop down that drop without too much ado.


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## TrailheadSupply

I pack both horses and mules. I pull my string about 500 miles every august. There are good horses and mules and there are bad horses and mules. If you are looking for good mules try and make the Salmon select horse and mule sale in Salmon ID mid April every year. if you have any gear or packing questions feel free to email me at [email protected] its all we do !

Andy


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## Endiku

Not very relevent, but I do think that my mules might be mixed up! xD Two out of the three have almost no use for horses and would rather hang with eachother or the donkey.


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## TrailheadSupply

My mules love their mares !!!!


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## bbsmfg3

I'm partial to horses for several reasons. One, I like gaited stock, and very few mules are truly well gaited. Two, I've seem more serious accidents form mules being stubborn than from horses. Three, mules seem to be much slower to respond to training than horses, and require different training methods.

I have not found one to be any better or worse at handling trails, even difficult ones. This is more an individual trait. Never found anyplace our horses would not go that a mule would.

A good gaited horse can also be a good pack horse, not very likely with a mule.

In either case, if your going to ride challenging trails in the mountains you want a dependable mount, that's sure footed and well trained. No place for a green one of either species.


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## Painted Horse

I don't own mules. So my opinions is probably not worth much. But I have ridden with others on their mules and never had a problem going where they went. One spring I rode the Green River Utah trail ride. The leaders of the ride were all on mules. We came to a section of ledges and they told all the horse ridders to get off and lead their horses, But the mule riders could stay mounted. I thought that was pretty biased advice. So I stayed on my green colt and went over the ledges just fine. Just to prove that even some young horses can easily do what an old mule can do. It's more about the training the animals personality than it's breed.

Here are some of the horse riders climbing back on their horses









This was public open ride with folks from all walks of life and experiences, But everybodies horses were dropping off steep embankments










Wes Taylor puts on the Extreme Outlaw rides in Southern Utah and most of his rides are mustang horses and he rides with the mule riders all the time




 
So as far as go any where, I think the horses can go most the same places the mules go. As far as other attributes. I think on a 1500 mile trip like you are planning, any equine will need shoes or boots. You can't ride 25 miles a day for 60 days straight on barefeet. Horse or mule. Forage, Maybe the mule dan do with rougher forage than the horses. If you are depending on graze in desert areas, The mules might have an advantage.

As far as packing, We have used both animals. The mules do well as packing, But then my mares do a pretty good job also.


















I think the bottom line is you need to find your livestock and be comfortable with them. If you have plans for mules beyond your one summer ride. Great get the mules. If you need saddle horses, then buy saddlle stock and teach them to pack.


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## Catpeedontherug

TrailheadSupply said:


> My mules love their mares !!!!


our too...a little too much. lol.


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## flytobecat

I don't own mules, but have a few friends who do. One of them used to breed them for a while. You have good ones and bad ones. They do seem a little hardier than horses. They tend to be easier keepers, and have better feet.


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## thenrie

Painted Horse said:


> I don't own mules. So my opinions is probably not worth much.


I highly value your comments and opinions. I was hoping you'd chime in. You do the kind of riding I hope to be able to spend my retirement doing.

I'm really struggling with this decision. I keep going back and forth. I have had several fairly major wrecks with horses, in my time, that might not have happened with mules. Then again, my experience with mules is so limited that I don't know for sure. I have packed numerous horses, but only one mule.

Some factors that have me seriously considering packing mules for my GWT trip are the following: My reading tells me mules can go longer without water and require less feed than horses, and that they can also do pretty well on forage that a horse won't touch, particularly a hinny mule (stallion/jenny), and that their hooves are tougher and less prone to problems than a horse. I've also been told a mule's conformation is better for packing a load than a horse, but I've never had a problem with a horse carrying a heavy load.

My research and experience are telling me that I'm going to have to go with iron shoes for the trip. I'll take boots for use in case of a lost shoe. So maybe the hoof issue isn't a big factor.

By the way, I am a subscriber to Wes' youtube channel, as well as Extreme Mules. I am not convinced that a mule can do things a horse can't do. I think you're right about the training. Still...trying to keep an open mind and make the best choice. Whichever I choose, I'm planning on a long-term relationship and lots of back country trips.


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## Celeste

Maybe you should consider a camel.


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## Catpeedontherug

or goats


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## Celeste

The goats could carry packs, but you can ride a camel.


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## Catpeedontherug

could ride the camel, pack the goats


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## Northernstar

I've heard that Llamas are excellent for that sort of thing! I believe there are Llama associations in nearly every state. Very docile for the most part and have endurance....


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## FlyGap

Yep, but you can't ride a llama.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Northernstar

No, but apparantly one rides the horse and the pack is carried by the Llamas. I met some members of the MI Llama Association years ago, and that's how it was explained - some hike alongside the Llamas who are carrying camping gear on major hiking trips.


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## Lockwood

Llamas do indeed make excellent pack animals, depending on the load to be carried.
Llamas are browsers, not grazers and need very little to sustain themselves. The padding on the bottom of their foot pads is tough and leathery and they are very good at climbing rough terrain, having been imported from the mountains of South America.
While they don't require shoes, sharp rocks could pose problems.
They are also excellent watch animals. Very alert to their surrounds.
(Sorry, I just had to give a positive plug for llamas!)


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## Painted Horse

But it takes 3 Llamas or 9 goats to pack as much as one horse.

And I hate crossing deep streams with Llamas, Their legs are not tall enough to get their body out of the deep current and they get swept downstream. And Goats absolutely hate water, But they will walk across logs or leapfrog from rock to rock to stay dry.

I was riding into the Popa Agia wilderness and crossed the Popa Agia river where it had split around an island, The current was fast and deep and I got my feet wet sitting on a 16h gelding. Once on the island I found a family of 3. Mom, Dad and 10 year old boy, they had 3 Llamas with them. They complained they were stranded on the island and had just about drowned the Llamas on the first crossing and were scared to attemp the second crossing to get off the island.

The Llamas were not tall enough to get the bulk of their body and the packs out of the river current. They would get caught broadside and swept away. I told them I would take their lead ropes and dalley them around my horn and drag them across the stream. Sometimes there is an advantage to riding a tall horse.


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## Lockwood

I didn't say llamas were perfect for _every_ type of terrain.
And, I said depending on the load. 

The family should have had the common sense not to do that deep crossing with them. No fault of the llamas.
FYI, Oberhasli goats are know for their packing ability (among goat breeds) and the ease in which they will cross water.
I own Oberhaslis and llamas and speak from my own experience. 
Both are good in many many situations.


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## thenrie

OK, guys and gals. That was fun. Thanks for the diversion. There won't be any llamas, or goats, or alpacas, or pack dogs, or hobbits, or...well, you get it...on my trip or in my pasture. I'm sure there are a few more folks out there who can actually _add_ to the discussion about horses vs mules for packing and riding. Please feel free to do so.

Maybe a different thread could be made for llamas and other critters. Thanks.:wink:


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## Lockwood

Well, then... no llamas spit for you!


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## its lbs not miles

Painted Horse said:


> I think on a 1500 mile trip like you are planning, any equine will need shoes or boots. You can't ride 25 miles a day for 60 days straight on barefeet. Horse or mule.


 
Back in the 70's Gordon Naysmith successfully rode over 12,000 miles from southern Africa to central Europe unshod except for once wrapping their feet, but I don't remember the details about that one case. It was a long time ago and I don't still have his book to refer to. :lol:
Interesting story though. I believe The Will To Win was the title of his book about it. I wondered how he survived some of his encounters with some unsavory characters along the way. I'm sure he was told that he would had to have the horses shod, but he went without.

I've never done 25 miles a day for 60 days straight (that's pretty tough on a working horse) and don't personally know anyone that has since most times we rest the horses a day or two a week. I had ridden my former working QH mare between 25 and 100 miles a week for the better part of 2 years (before I desided I needed to make a better living) and never had a shoe or boot on her (boots had only been invented some years earlier so we didn't even know about them....not that it would have mattered).:lol:


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## Painted Horse

I'm a great believer in a barefoot horse. My horses were totally barefoot for 5 years. My gelding never had shoes until this year as a 9 year old horse. My horses can go any where for a day. But they can not do it multiple days in a row. If I gave them a day or two off in between rides, they could stay barefoot. But on a trip where you want to cover 1500 miles, riding day in and day out. You will need some hoof protection, Either boots or shoes

Its not near the problem to ride a horse a 100 miles a week in plowed fields. It another problem to ride 100 miles down hard packed trails.









But it is a whole different issue to cross our western landscapes while heavily loaded. .









They are not riding in an arena.


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## AnnaHalford

PH, we´re currently debating this. All our horses are shod except my mare in back. She had some pretty nasty cracks in her feet when we came back out to Chile and I didn´t want to shoe her when there was nothing much for the nails to hold on to. I would like to keep them all barefoot if possible, if only to avoid the trouble of finding shoes and getting them shod, but even though Luna now has some pretty cracking back feet, she isn´t capable of going every day like this. We saw this on our last trip where one day she was fine, the next day fine, the third ouchy, and the fourth fine. 
We don´t really have the resources for easyboots (not at the prices they are in Chile, anyway, plus they are mega-difficult to find), or we´d probably be thinking about a combination of barefoot and boots when needed, although it´d be fun finding space for 8-16 easyboots in our packs... 
So now, I´m debating whether just to get her shod, or try wrapping her feet using the trusted combination of duct tape and inner tube... In the meantime, before I malke up my mind, she´s getting at least 15 mins every day in-hand walking over our nice local roads (fist-sized sharp rocks over gravel).


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## Painted Horse

Anna, it's great to hear from somebody actually doing a extreme distance trip. I wish you well with your endevor.

I did talk to some folks last summer who rode Pacific Ocean to Atlantic Ocean. They stayed barefoot or used boots. But they took 16 months to ride 3000 miles. So in other words, They had more days off than they did actually riding.

As far as storage, I have the same problem in my trailer, let alone packs. Where to put 16 boots? And I need a broad assortment of sizes. Since most of the horses use a different size on the hinds vs the fronts and sometimes different between the two fronts. And then comes the issue of spares. I rip a gaiter, break a buckle, loose a boot almost every time I put the boots on. With 16 boots, keeping spare parts and spare boots doubles or triples the storage needs.

Add to that the time needed to put on and remove 16 boots everytime you head out. Even at 5 minutes a boot x 16, I was spending an hour getting ready to leave the trail heads and another 20 minutes removing boots when I got back. Then you have to clean up the boot, wash the grit and mud off, dry them out, and repair any damage. Add to that the every two week hoof trimmings to stay in size so the boots fit. I just don't have the time.

Boots quickly became the "Occassional Use" solution. I decided that if my horses could not go barefoot full time, they needed to be shod for the heavy work. 

My horses stay barefoot about 7 months of the year. I put shoes on them for the heavy riding season of summer and fall.


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## Catpeedontherug

Painted Horse~ just wondering if you need 16?? I don't know of many folks that boot up the back feet.
Since your journey is a little more complex than most people's, you might need to boot up all fours.


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## AnnaHalford

Cat, I think the question is the everyday riding. My mare is fine three out of five with her back feet bare, even over pretty rough ground. If I only rode her like that, or every couple of days, she´d probably always be fine with her backs bare and her fronts booted, plus the investment of time for the boots would be minimal. 
But we have four horses, so at the moment shoes are the only real option. I know of the Naysmith trip but it´s also true that he was using Lesotho horses which basically have mustang feet. 

PH, your photos of the damage the boots sustained were pretty convincing. We´re having the same things with our packs (see the packing thread in the Training forum). Can I ask what shoes / nails you use, and are they shod on all feet or just fronts?


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## Painted Horse

I've been trimming my horses for the 5 years they were bare. Farrier taught me and at first we would alternate trims. I would trim then 2 weeks later when he came, he would evaluate my trim and correct. As time went by, I did more and he came less often. Till after a while I did it all.

This summer when I decided I needed shoes, I called him and asked about getting shoes put on, He told me to just do it. He was confident enough with my trimming. So I just followed suite of what he has been using when he used to shoe my horses.

St Croix Extra Easy shoes and Delta #4 Cityhead Slim nails. If I can't find the Delta, I've used the Capewell. ( I need to go look at the box to make sure it was size 4 or size 5.) The Extra Easy fits pretty close right out of the box, has a slightly wider metal for a little more sole protection, and a rim for a little traction. My local feed stores sells them by the weight, 16 shoes usually cost me about $25.00- $28.00

The slim nails are easier on the hoof walls and much much easier to twist off with the hamer after driving them thru.

I put shoes on all 4 hooves. Since I have had horses get sore on pack trips, I didn't want to gamble on having half the job done and still having a sore horse 20 miles into a weekend. My foxtrotters do Move out MUCH better with shoes on than they did barefoot. Much more willing to gait at faster speeds down the trail. Less brushing me off on trees trying to get off the side of the trails. It's just amazing tome how much more willing they are to go faster once they got shoes. vs how they walked the edge of trails and watched where their feet were going when barefoot. It also did wonders for their climbing steep grades. Barefoot they just didn't seem to want to power up a steep hill. With shoes they seem more willing to use the power of their muscle to climb the mountains faster. Since most of that climbing power comes from the rear end. I suspect having shoes on the hinds has given them more confidence to push off harder with those muscles.


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## thenrie

Painted Horse said:


> I put shoes on all 4 hooves. Since I have had horses get sore on pack trips, I didn't want to gamble on having half the job done and still having a sore horse 20 miles into a weekend. My foxtrotters do Move out MUCH better with shoes on than they did barefoot. Much more willing to gait at faster speeds down the trail. Less brushing me off on trees trying to get off the side of the trails. It's just amazing tome how much more willing they are to go faster once they got shoes. vs how they walked the edge of trails and watched where their feet were going when barefoot. It also did wonders for their climbing steep grades. Barefoot they just didn't seem to want to power up a steep hill. With shoes they seem more willing to use the power of their muscle to climb the mountains faster. Since most of that climbing power comes from the rear end. I suspect having shoes on the hinds has given them more confidence to push off harder with those muscles.


Good info. Thanks.

By the way, I would have expected you to have QHs. Why the Foxtrotters?


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## WickedNag

I don't own mules but my trail buddies do and I love them! There is a midwest mule group on facebook you can join and get lots of info


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## Painted Horse

I got into Foxtrotters years ago when I was doing a lot of Competitive Trail Rides. The Paint horse I owned at the time kept getting stone bruised with the miles I was putting on him for conditioning and competition. ( and he was shod) Typical of Quarter horse and Paints, They have just bred the feet off those horses.

Gaited horses do very well at the speed required for Competitive Trail. Most of those events need to average 5-7 mph . A friend had owned numerous TWH horses and had problems with longivity in that breed and had switched over to Foxrotters. ( I'm not going to say that TWH are short lived, but the blood line he had bought was, 15-16 years old and they were done). So he kinda dumped a bias onto me against TWH. His Foxtrotters had proven to be great horses.

As I tried different breeds, I found that the Foxtrotters were a true diagonal gait. Which worked out better for me on mountain sides than horses that tended to be more pacey or laterial in their gaits. ( think about riding on a steep side hill on a lateral horse, swinging right to left vs riding a diagonal gait of front to back motion) Also the Foxtrot action of slidding the hind foot into the spot just vacated by the front hoof offered more secure footing on rough terrain. Less tripping or stumbling.

I read a book about that time called Green Long Johns or Green Pajamas or something like that. Written by Stan Trixier. He was a retire Forest Service Ranger. He told stories of how the Forest Service Rangers prefered Foxtrotters to other horses for back country rangers. They offered a more comfortable ride for rangers who were required to travel many miles on forest trails. Allowing the rangers to cover more ground and arrive less tired than riding other breeds. The forest service had better luck with Foxtrotters than the other gaited breeds they had tried.

I didn't own cattle, So no reason to own roping or cutting horses. I didn't have space for a personal arena, So no where to practice reining or dressage. I had bought horses to cover miles of mountain trails. Getting to elk hunting or a remote mountain lake to fish. So I decided if they were good enough for Forest Service Rangers they would work for me.

Once I started buying them, I learned how even tempered they generally are. They have a good mind, seem to be easier to train, don't seem to get as spooked or excited as the arabs or paints that I had owned before. My wife would ride a foxtrotter where she would rarely come along for a ride on hard trotting horse. My foxtrotters can dog walk with my quarter horse friends or keep up with visitors that had fast gaits. They are not the best horse for Endurance races. They will complete the race, they just won't place in the top ten. Where my arab would do 50 miles and avg 11-12 mph, and be at a resting heart rate almost instantly at the vet checks. my foxtrotters were more of a 6-7 mph horse. But a whole lot more comfortable to ride all day.

Hopefully that will give you an idea of why I have chosen that breed.


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## Painted Horse

I actually got to meet Stan, he is a great cowboy poet and performs at a lot of cowboy poetry events in my area. He breds and raises Foxtrotters because of the appreciation he developed for them as a ranger when he had to ride them on a daily basis. 

This is the link to his novel in case you are interested. It's not a discussion of horses or horse traits, But rather tall tales of what life as ranger was like.

Green Underwear: Stan Tixier: 9781555175726: Amazon.com: Books


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## thenrie

Hmmm. Always liked Quarter horses, but you're right. This tiny, fine hoof thing that show folks like has about done it for many QH types. That's one of my worries with my mare. She has good hard hooves, but they're smallish and she's about 15 hands. Her pasture mate is a 20yo QH gelding about 14.2 hands with large round hooves, like I wish my mare had. She's about a size 0 and he's about a 2.

I have a little experience with 1/2 arab/QHs. Like them a lot, but mine were smallish, maybe 13.7 hands, 14 at most. Still they could go all day and all night and never work up a sweat. Hooves so hard you could ride them anywhere barefoot with never a flinch. A little too small for my taste on a long trip.

I may look around here and see what is available in the Foxtrotter persuasion. Sounds like a breed I might like. I like a horse that moves out well at a walk.

Thanks for the info.


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## Painted Horse

Go look at Alma's website. I know he is too far away for you to look at his horses. But he has some good articles on gaits
DeMille Foxtrotters - Missouri Foxtrotting Horses

or at his facebook page. Lots of videos of Foxtrotters
http://www.facebook.com/DeMilleFoxtrotters


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## bbsmfg3

While your lookin take a good look at the racking horses. We started with arabs, switched to TWH, and tried some Fox Trotters. 

I like the sure footness of our racking horses and they like to get out and walk on. And we do quite a bit of gaiting on up above 10mph while on the trails in the mountains.

Jon has some nice Fox Trotters, and they can walk on out also. When he rode with us, he had to be very careful how much he did on the barefoot. 

Shoes, I don't know how anyone could ride very many days in a row barefoot. I've never seen a horse that could go barefoot more than just a few days at time. When we ride the mountains we make sure we have new shoes with drill tec, and after we have ridden 3 weeks, everyday, and travel 8 to 10 hours per day, our shoes are thin. The hoof doesn't exist that can tolerate that much wear. I've seen some that were tough enough to ride the rocks, but never one that wears well enough.


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## flytobecat

I would think from a weight stand point, barefoot and boots would make more sense. Eventually, you are going to lose shoes, and unless you pack them, you are going to have to find a place to get them when you stop. If you are riding everyday you shouldn't have to trim that much. I rarely had to trim mine when I was riding more often.
I would pack boots though. We have some places out here that are nothing but lava a rocks which are really sharp. I would think even a shod horse would have problems on those. Our horses do OK on them with just the front boots.
I would worry about sores from the packs. Over time with friction from the pack shifting back forth you are going to get sores. You could always pony a spare and switch out horses, but then you have to worry about another mouth to feed.


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## Foxtail Ranch

I have a friend who has led pack strings into the Grand Canyon for the forest service for years. They prefer mules for one very important reason: heat tolerance. It gets very hot and dry in the canyon descent and mules tolerate heat MUCH better than horses. 

Another cool thing: they can eat a much wider variety of foods. Her mule Himey loved chips and beer!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dead Rabbit

bbsmfg3 said:


> While your lookin take a good look at the racking horses. We started with arabs, switched to TWH, and tried some Fox Trotters.
> 
> I like the sure footness of our racking horses and they like to get out and walk on. And we do quite a bit of gaiting on up above 10mph while on the trails in the mountains.
> 
> Jon has some nice Fox Trotters, and they can walk on out also. When he rode with us, he had to be very careful how much he did on the barefoot.
> 
> Shoes, I don't know how anyone could ride very many days in a row barefoot. I've never seen a horse that could go barefoot more than just a few days at time. When we ride the mountains we make sure we have new shoes with *drill tec*, and after we have ridden 3 weeks, everyday, and travel 8 to 10 hours per day, our shoes are thin. The hoof doesn't exist that can tolerate that much wear. I've seen some that were tough enough to ride the rocks, but never one that wears well enough.



what is drill tec Bob?


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## WesternRider88

I have a mule and he does great in the mountains and so does my horse. Mules are good for packing and riding. Also you will rarely find any hoof problems with mules and they have very good feet. I went on a steep mountain climb with some friends and the horses had to stop once in a while to rest but mules won't have to stop as much. Some horses will do better than others, just depends on the horse.


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## Painted Horse

Drilltec is metal compound that is used in the drilling business. By adding it to steel shoes you make them wear longer and add some additional traction on certain kinds of rocks, like granite.

It is usually brazed or welded onto a normal steel shoe. In doing so you create a textured or uneven surface to the steel shoe that gives better traction in ice or on rocks. 
http://www.ehow.com/how_8002616_weld-drill-tech-horseshoes.html

And when I said my Foxtrotters can do 5-7 mph above, I was referring to their all day avg. I'm sure there are stretches where we hit 12-14 mph, But the horses don't maintain that all day. At least I don't have mine conditioned to work that hard.


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## Painted Horse

The St Croix EZ shoes are punched for the CityHead #5 nail. Not size 4 as I mentioned above.


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## Dead Rabbit

i assume this is similar to Borium? i have all four of my horses shoes with this on it. i never knew it was call drill tek

The Blacksmith Shop : Horseshoeing & Farrier Supplies and Horseshoes with Drill Tek

as for mules. i can only repeat what i was told by a couple of old mule men. one worked them in his younger yrs. another, rides them daily. 

they both agreed that, a mule will love you for the next 10 yrs. then all of a sudden that same mule can turn on you, and kill you. you gotta keep your eye on a mule.


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## bbsmfg3

quote:"I have a friend who has led pack strings into the Grand Canyon for the forest service for years. They prefer mules for one very important reason: heat tolerance. It gets very hot and dry in the canyon descent and mules tolerate heat MUCH better than horses. 

Another cool thing: they can eat a much wider variety of foods. Her mule Himey loved chips and beer!"

Sometimes it is almost comical. Tolerance to heat and eating habits are individual animal traits not unique to either species. Either Horses or Mules are capable of doing well. Conditioning and diet has more to do with heat tolerance. I've seen horses with bad eating habits, ditto mules. I've seen many a mule that I wouldn't take on a superhighway trail, ditto horses. Likewise I've seen many horse that would do the Grand Canyon trails as well as any mule. 

Of all the breeds and species we've seen and worked with, a well trained, not hot blooded, paso is the most sure footed and handles the rocks easier than any mule or other breed of horse. Problem with the pasos is finding them, that are not, show bred and have the easy going largo, vs the fino. The fino is a fun gait to ride in the ring, but forget one of those rascals for trail use. And endurance is their middle name.

Makes no difference which species or breed you want for trail stock, I look more for the individual make up and conformation of the animal.


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## bbsmfg3

Today Borium and Drill tec are the same product. Years ago Borium was normally a smooth textures product, used primarily for wear, added nothing to traction.

It is silicon carbide crystals encased in a eutectic core. I will not ride without it. I do not like falling. We cross slick bottom creeks, slick backtops and ride on slick rocks. Seen too many falling accidents from barefeet, booted feet or plain steel shoes. That's one obstacle we can prevent. PLus, in the heavy riding months a set of shoes will not last 3 weeks without it. With it, we can get 6 to 8 weeks out of a set of shoes.


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## bbsmfg3

On horses vs mules, lest not forget it is in the breeding that makes the difference. Some crossed to get a mule produces nothing but junk, ditto horses. Horses are a bit more predictable if you stay with in a blood line that has desirable traits. Any time you cross one species with another one the results can be very unpredictable. Unfortunately, that's the only way to get a mule.


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## LesandLily

This sounds like a super fun trip! For my money I would ride and pack horses. I have ridden and packed both mules and horses and while a good mule can do both equally well there are a couple of things that would keep me from mules that I don't think has been talked about.

First, is a good mule, well trained and ready to go (pack and ride) seems to run about double or more what a horse with the same abilities or training would be. Don't know if that is an issue or not. If they are not ready, training a mule is different from training a horse and you would either have to find a mule trainer or figure it out yourself. Might take away some time from trip planning.

Second, is I find mules more independent and harder to bond with. If you bond with them it seems to almost be a stronger bond but it is a crap shoot whether you are able to get there or not. On the trail I want an animal that is bonded strongly to me and not out for their own agenda. 

Third, I would want animals that can pull double duty. Pack on one day, ride on another. Saddles (both pack and riding) don't fit mules and horses that same way and finding two animals of different species that would be able to use the same equipment, especially on a long hard ride such as this I would think would be tough. You don't want to pack extra equipment for each animal, unless you love freeze dried food!

Lastly, I want to be the smartest one in the relationship. I want to make the decisions. Horses will typically let you do that but a mule seems to have a little higher decision making power than horses...maybe even a little higher self preservation button. On a mule you are not always in charge. 

Lastly, I personally would carry boots with me to have a spare for each animal in case of a thrown shoe but I would never consider such an adventure on unshod horses. Unless the horse was raised in the wild and had iron feet, no domestic horse that I have ever seen, even ones kept barefoot and conditioned for that can handle the repetetive, every day pounding on rocks, hard packed trails etc. that you will encounter. I personally would run four shoes on each animal with borium cleets for grip on the rock and pavement you may encounter. I would carry four replacement shoes for each animal as well as knowing how to replace one in addition I would have one good boot for the front and one for the back of each animal to use as a spare tire to get you out of the backcountry in case of a blown tire in an area where you can't get a shoe on. 

I know there is a lot of debate on barefoot vs. shod and I run my horses year round barefoot until it comes time to ride them like this and then shod they become. They are much happier and so are you. 

Good luck, have fun and stay safe.

Cheers!
Les


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## thenrie

That is all good information, Les. Thanks.

You mentioned two things that have led me toward mules. One is that, from what I have read, mules bond with a handler more like a dog does than a horse. I like that. Nobody ever said that bond was harder to achieve. Good information.

Second, is that a mule has a different self-preservation button than a horse...not sure it's stronger. The one big thing I dislike about a horse is that sometimes, due to the horse's flight response, neither the rider nor the horse is in control! Like I said before, I have had some horse wrecks that might not have happened with a mule. Then again, that might have been my own fault for not spending enough time with the horse before the trip. I have to admit that I have taken a number of pack trips with horses that hadn't been out of the pasture in a while. One of the evils of having a full-time career that doesn't involve the horse. That won't happen any more, as I retired this year.

I had thought about the matter of mixing breeds and equipment. Being able to saddle a pack animal and rotate horses would be a nice option if needed. Several of the mules I have looked at have conformation so close to that of a horse that I think the equipment and saddles would go both ways. However I have to defer to experience. 

As for training, I still have over two years before I launch. I enjoy training horses and figured I would enjoy learning how to train a mule as well. In fact, there are a matched pair of mules for sale out here right now that I would love to buy. One is a yearling and the other is 2. Both are sorrels with 4 white stockings. Both should end up at 14.2 or better. Owner wants $1,000 for the pair and I'm sure I could get them for a couple hundred less. I just can't talk the boss (Mrs. Henrie) into letting me buy them right now.

Well, I guess I'm no closer to making the decision just yet, but after the information I've gotten on this thread, I'm leaning back toward pack horses.


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## bbsmfg3

Your welcome to join the wife and I on our trip to the mountains next year. 

We'll be going to the Gallatin Mountains in SW Montana. South of Big Sky and back the Taylor Fork Creek to Cache Creek Trail head. Be there the last 2 week of June and the 1st 2 week of July.

We don't camp overnight in the mountains, but we do a lot of riding. Usually 8 to 10 hours per day on the trail. Give you a good chance to see how our ole plug gaited horses do in the rough terrain.

Might even get to meet up with Painted Horse. He said he'd try and make it over a few days. 

You mentioned young mules currently available. I sure wouldn't take mule or horse that's under 4 or 5 as a reliable every day ride or pack. They just can not get conditioned well enough until they mature a bit more. The mountains of Virginia are pretty and I like riding them, but the are mole hills compared to what you'll find in the Rockies.


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## thenrie

I'd love to do that trip with you, but I expect to have my mare down in AZ at about that time, giving her a trial in the AZ mountains. Believe me, I am fully aware of the difference between the Rockies and the mountains out here. I am actually _from_ out there, just happen to be here for a few years. I expect to be moving back out that way, most likely Utah, within 2 years. That should be enough time to get the final shine on my animals before the trip and will make logistics a lot easier.

As for the mule ages, that's one reason I haven't pushed too much for this pair of mules. They'd be beauts to have, but they're a little young for my trip. I figured if they were born early in the year, by the time I take my trip they'd be nearly 5 and 4, and would be fine as far as physical maturity, but then I didn't look into them enough to find out exactly when they were born. Even at that, it wouldn't leave me very much time to get them well-trained for the trip.

I think I'm going to stick with horses for this trip. I'll experiment with mules later.

After doing some checking around in this area, apparently Foxtrotters aren't very popular out here. Can't find a one for sale. Plenty of Thoroughbreds being sold cheap, though. A lot of "off-the-track" and "rescue" TBs and Walkers being sold and even given away. Found a 5 year-old 15 hand Morgan/Belgian mare being given away. Would be a good packer, but heavy on the feed! I may have to test drive a Walker to see what I think. Never did like their conformation as much as a QH.

I looked at the sites Painted Horse mentioned. Nice horses. Wish I could afford a couple or three.


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