# A new "how to."



## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

I kept thinking that I didn't have enough time to watch that, but I stuck with it.

It seemed to me that the pony was doing nothing wrong at the time that the punishment was correctly delivered according to the instructor. 

I thought that they believed in using as little force as is needed, I am quickly losing any hope in PP from the things I see here. I can understand doing that with an aggresive or dangerous horse, but what do that poor pony do other than not understand?


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## Charis (Jul 6, 2010)

I don't understand what they are asking the horse to do, and why the horse keeps getting punishied without any warning or release at all.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

I am guessing that she was teaching the human at the expense of the horse, which is a terrible shame.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

This is the lamest form of horsemanship I have seen in awhile. I watched some parelli videos back in the day and tried some of it and found it just wasnt for me and like I was training for the circus. However I would not of thought that they would have condoned "training" like this. 

Why does she need to have the horse so far behind and away from her to lead? 
It seems like she corrects the horse at random intervals and distances.

Is she encouraging twaping the horse with the clip of the lead rope? 

wouldn't it be easier to just teach your horse to back like a normal horse instead of wiggling all over the place and just annoying the poor thing?

Is it really that effective to keep correcting your horse for something he did a minute or so ago because you can't perform the correction?

Is it me or the first time when she takes over the horse from 'Holly' her body language is just very overwhelming to the horse to begin with?

I'm honestly curious to the answers to these questions from Parelli advocates. I hear from many how they were at their route good horsemen that just got caught up in marketing. That they have good training methods but people have a hard time implementing them. 

I do not see this as good training. It seems like an overreaction. The horse seems just as clueless as I am.


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## PaintedFury (Aug 18, 2010)

That's funny, and contradictory to what I've always been told and practiced. A horse is supposed to lead at your shoulder, that way if it spooks it doesn't plow you over. Not to mention my mare would come unglued is someone hit her in the face with a clip on purpose. Linda would be picking herself up off the ground after Lady took off backwards dragging Linda with her. Lady has been hit in the face with a clip (by accident) because she tossed her head just right while working on ground manners, and the clip flipped up and popped her one. She ran backwards so fast that I couldn't keep up, I had to drop the lead rope to keep from being pulled off my feet. As soon as she calmed down, she came right back to me. The sad part is we were working on about a 25 foot lounge line, and she was about 15 or so feet out with enough slack in the line that it was just barely off the ground. Needless to say she doesn't toss her head around like that anymore. She's always been real sensitive to pressure on her face, but when she gets spooked, all bets are off, and that clip hitting her spooked her. Normally she is very quiet, and doesn't spook at anything. She can be high strung, but for the most part now, her spooking consists of her turning to face whatever it is that spooked her and staring at it. That hasn't always been the case, but it is now, with the exception of my husband of course. She's terrified of him for some reason that I can not figure out, but that's another story!


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I'm not a Parrelli fan but I didn't see any abuse in the video. That pony was trying to run past her each time they changed directions, That rider was probably pretty nervous dealing with a horse that had ground manners like that. I personally don't want to be run past and run down when walking my horse. I think she was actually teaching her correctly.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

As a matter of fact Clinton Anderson is using the similar technique (look at his "Respect on ground" dvds). I also have seen John Lyons certified trainer (working with rescue horses at defhr) doing it when horse misbehaved. Should we jump on them as well? 

Do I think it's a good approach? No. Is it abuse? I don't think so.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

I did not watch the whole thing. I am not sure how much was left after I stopped (I watched until after Linda took the horse back from the owner after the owner walked around some on their own).

I agree that a horse should not plow over you when walking, etc.

I do not agree that you should teach your horse to walk behind you and punish it every time it starts to catch up to where it is supposed to be.

Fine, punish it for trying to run over you. But it is stupid to punish it for simply being next to you.

There were times that this pony was walking quietly and all it did was get to where I am sure it was taught to walk and it was whacked. That is not appropriate.

Can someone please tell me why that woman is always wearing her chaps? And why do they walk like a freak? What is the arm flapping about?


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Alwaysbehind said:


> Can someone please tell me why that woman is always wearing her chaps?


Because she looks hot in them! :!: Making us all jealous about it! :mrgreen:


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

I still can not figure out at what point you need to slap a horse in the head with a snap at the end of a lead. I work stallions at breeding time and have never had one that needed to have his face snapped with anything. If you can control a breeding stallion you can control any horse with out doing this type of thing. This has NOTHING to do with NH. It is instilling fear to the horse. Making them do what you want out of fear of being hit in the face. Just boggles my mind it does it does.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> Because she looks hot in them! :!: Making us all jealous about it! :mrgreen:


Where is the puking smiley when I need it?


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## DieselPony (Jul 26, 2010)

This method does work in very certain special cases. I'd try very hard not to use it as you're just asking for a high-headed, or worse, rearing horse. But I'd be comfortable using it on an already rearing horse if he was actually being violent, not acting out of confusion, pain, or was taught to rear at one point in his life.

I'm really confused by their contradictory teachings. Isn't it suppose to go apply little pressure and don't take it off until the horse moves/does what it's suppose to? And if it doesn't move keep increasing pressure, but never actually remove pressure until its done as that's the reward?

So if wiggling the rope is the cue for backing up and the horse doesn't respond to slight wiggle, wiggle harder? So if the release of pressure is the reward, isn't stopping the wiggle so you can get enough impulsion to smack the horse a good one just completely wrong? Watch the horse's face, the wiggle stops, he relaxes, he thinks he did good. Than wack!

And the stopping to let the horse think! Gah, he wasn't thinking about what he just learned, he was off staring at the other horses and sky and grass. And then he walked up and touched his owner on the back with no discipline, so he thinks, why can't I walk behind her any other time?

And he is rushing because he's not paying attention to the leader then all of sudden the leader is going a different away. He has to catch up. I don't find him disrespectful, I find him not being made to pay attention and acting like a young, immature horse who just hasn't been properly taught. 

Also, if you listen to Linda "I don't care if he goes past me way out there, just not near" So, he's not even being taught to stay behind the shoulder. So he runs past, Flap those elbows! He runs past another time, he's backed up and smacked with the snap. Also, her whip is always waving around, probably a big reason why he doesn't rush as much with the owner, she doesn't have the whip flopping about. 

When the owner is calm and not rushing and turning as fast as possible the horse does pretty well, and I think most of his problems were he wasn't paying attention and then the leader turned and he had to rush to catch up. I don't find him disrespectful, I find him not paying attention. 

I hate the marketed NH. I like NH, just not the marketed NH. And it's been a bad day already, so excuse my rant


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

nrhareiner said:


> I still can not figure out at what point you need to slap a horse in the head with a snap at the end of a lead. I work stallions at breeding time and have never had one that needed to have his face snapped with anything. If you can control a breeding stallion you can control any horse with out doing this type of thing. This has NOTHING to do with NH. It is instilling fear to the horse. Making them do what you want out of fear of being hit in the face. Just boggles my mind it does it does.


I don't remember what the reasoning behind it CA offers. But what I've seen it's done fast and sharp - just good wiggle of the rope, which will be sent to the clip. Of course it' nothing like wiggling and hitting again, and again, and again. Why not to use something else to stop horses running over you? Heck, I don't know. I believe in running into whip or backing if misbehave way more than that "clip" thing. But again, I wouldn't call it abuse really, just bad horsemanship IMHO. 

BTW, similar video (with the blind on one side horse I believe) was posted here while back.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Alwaysbehind said:


> Where is the puking smiley when I need it?


Grrrrrrr........... :rofl:


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

nrhareiner said:


> If you can control a breeding stallion you can control any horse with out doing this type of thing.


Sorry - that is too blanket of a statement for me to be able to agree with.


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

If stupidity is abuse, call them felons. 

That was such a stupid idea. I don't have sound so I am not exactly sure what they were trying to teach that horse...however I think he didn't have a clue either. I was always taught that it is unsafe to have a horse behind you and disrespectful for them to pass your shoulder. Was my teaching incorrect? Cuz I have been teaching that to others for years.

It was just stupid. The whole 2 minutes of Linda showing her how to 'wiggle' the rope. It sure looks like a scare tactic to me. If I were a horse I would much prefer you just hit me and let me learn my lesson than 'buzzing my tower' with lead ropes CONSTANTLY. The horse is obviously a lil fiery to begin with. He sure was trying to do what they wanted him to do though...he just didn't understand!


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

corinowalk said:


> The horse is obviously a lil fiery to begin with. He sure was trying to do what they wanted him to do though...he just didn't understand!



He looked to me like he was getting more and more up as they progressed. He started out much more calm than he was at the point I stopped watching.


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## nobody2121 (Sep 6, 2010)

Just watched it, what is the issue. That horse didnt look troubled at the end?
I didnt see her HIT the horse, she got the horse to look out for her. My observation is a happy horse is looking to see what I am doing and want next, not the other way around. Getting there can be interesting


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

mls said:


> Sorry - that is too blanket of a statement for me to be able to agree with.


Yes I agree it is very blanket statement. Not a lot of extra time today. 

What I was getting at is that if you have methods that work with a stallion and control him when they are in the actual process of breeding or being collected then you have the tools to be able to control any horse.

I know as I was building those tools I tried different things until I found the best combination. However non of them included hitting the horse with anything in the head. 

I personally do not even like to have a horse that fare out on a lead unless I am lunging them which I rarely do. The longer the rope the less control you have. This goes for anything not just horses.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

I don't care what clinician is teaching this method, I still think it's highly ineffective wether Linda is doin it or CA/Lyons, etc. 

There's no clear consistency to when he gets reprimanded. I agree to correct him when he gets in front of you, but I don't agree with how they did it. 

I see a timid/ineffective handler being taught to wack her horse in the chin with a clip so she can "protect" herself. 

It just seemed that the horse and handler were more stressed out in the end than the beginning and the horse didn't learn anything other than to jerk his head up when his handler makes a sudden movement.

What happened to having your horse at your shoulder? You have more control and your horse is generally more focussed on you.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Here you go AB LOL.

While I don't agree with it and saw it a quite a bit over the top for that particular horse, I don't really see it as abuse either. Are there some horses in the world that would benefit from a good pop in the jaw? Probably. But not that horse, and not over and over and over. My biggest problem is still the hypocritical aspect of the whole Parelli cult. The rest of us use curb bits and heavy saddles and we're cruel but they can pop a horse in the face with a snap continuously and everything's hunky-dorey? Puhleeze :roll:. Not to mention that they are showing stuff that they expect people to learn from a DVD but a girl who is right there with LP bleating in her ear can't get it right? Oh, and I absolutely love how at the very end, the halter was just completely hanging off the horse and was so close to slipping off his nose. Is that how they teach people to put a halter on the horse or did it just loosen that much from all the snap-popping?


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

Ok...so not to thread jack but we seem to have a nice pool of experienced horse people who have responded to this so Ill ask.

How would you have dealt with this situation? 

I work with some reaaaal whack jobs at the barn and some of them are lacking in ground manners. I open the door for them to misbehave and then correct them. When the nose gets past my shoulder, I stop and back them up and stand with them in the proper position (for me!) for a few seconds and then start again. Repeat until they get the point that the second that nose passes my shoulder, were backing up.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

smrobs said:


> *The rest of us use curb bits and heavy saddles and we're cruel *but they can pop a horse in the face with a snap continuously and everything's hunky-dorey?


I bet you PETA will go after you one day, smrobs! And after me as well - I keep whip in hands! :shock: :lol:


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Thank you Smrobs! For the smiley and the great post.

The contradiction is what has always gotten me. I am missing the progressive steps in this teaching maneuver. I thought you ask, then told, then demanded. (He used other words, do not remember what they are.) I miss where the ask and then tell are in this presentation.





corinowalk said:


> How would you have dealt with this situation?


Giggle...you have obviously never met my mare.

Rude and pushy and in your face. She still gets the option to do it right after being told before she gets the crap beaten out of her.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

corinowalk said:


> Ok...so not to thread jack but we seem to have a nice pool of experienced horse people who have responded to this so Ill ask.
> 
> How would you have dealt with this situation?
> 
> I work with some reaaaal whack jobs at the barn and some of them are lacking in ground manners. I open the door for them to misbehave and then correct them. When the nose gets past my shoulder, I stop and back them up and stand with them in the proper position (for me!) for a few seconds and then start again. Repeat until they get the point that the second that nose passes my shoulder, were backing up.


It depends on horse. Sometime I back up or disengage that hind (in fact most of the times). BUT if horse tries to jump on top of me badly (in old barn 5-10 horses tried to jump on top of you at the gate and growling, hand waving etc. did NOT work at all) I use long whip and let them run into.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Well, PETA can just bring it. I have little tolerance for willful ignorance :lol:.

AB, smiley central is a wonderful little tab, they have about a thousand to choose from.

Cori, that's how I would handle it too. If they get in your space, back their *** up and get them out of it, then put them where you want them before starting over. At least that horse was reactive to their response, my neighbor has a mare that will just smirk at you and keep walking over the top of you even if you do inflict what should cause pain. I messed with her one day and ended up escalating higher with her than I ever had any other horse to no avail. Spoiled horses are the absolute worst.


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

Ahhh smrobs...are you sure your neighbors mare isnt 2600# Rosie? She is getting better but will still do what she dang well pleases...she is big enough to dictate the rules in her opinion. We practice a TON of "Walk-on" and "whoas" on a lead. Its when you arent paying attention that she swings a dinner plate sized foot over your leg and crushes your toes. If a horse could smile...she would be ear to ear.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

When I have a horse that is getting in my space what I do will vary depending on the horse. Some can take the pressure to be more aggressive in what I can do. Others take a less aggressive approach.

I so use a lot of backing. I find that if you can keep their feet moving that it gives them something to do and get them paying attention. Most of the horses I have had that have gotten into my space have been horses who have not been taught to pay attention to the handler. I have had a lot of mares like that come in for breeding. Their owners just let them get away with it and say its b/c the horse is a mare. They are 100 times better by the time they go home. Sometimes it is just the little things you do to. 

Like the other day. I was bring Te in through the mares. For some reason he decided to give out a nicker. He knows that is unacceptable. He was disciplined and that was it. All it took was me shaking his halter. I do not normally use a lead rope when I bring the horses in. I either put the lead around their neck or just put a halter on them. Te just had his halter on and I was leading him with just the halter. I gave it a yank and that was the end of it. He knows that if he did not it would go to the next level. Have yet to take it there in years. Once you get their attention and respect and the rules are very clear you rarely will have problems again.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

corinowalk said:


> Ok...so not to thread jack but we seem to have a nice pool of experienced horse people who have responded to this so Ill ask.
> 
> How would you have dealt with this situation?
> 
> I work with some reaaaal whack jobs at the barn and some of them are lacking in ground manners. I open the door for them to misbehave and then correct them. When the nose gets past my shoulder, I stop and back them up and stand with them in the proper position (for me!) for a few seconds and then start again. Repeat until they get the point that the second that nose passes my shoulder, were backing up.


This is close to what I do. I'll stop and face him, he should stop when I stop, if he doesn't I'll "snatch" the rope and send him backwards and then make him stand. If he crowds my space, I will snap the leadrope on his chest if I need to (the end that I hold). I usually only have to do that once. A problem that I do run into though, is I sometimes will crowd HIS space. He'll be where he should be and then I'll step closer, to rub or love or whatever... then I've put myself into his space which in turn, puts him into a position where he crowds me.

Space issues are a bigger challenge then some might think....


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

There was nothing wrong with the way Linda handled that particular horse and owner. The horse was pushy and dominant, and when he got on adrenaline became dangerous because he wanted to crowd and run over her. She had to match his energy and then ADD a little more in order to get noticed. Did the horse lose trust in her? No. Was it unfair? No. You do whatever it necessary to stay safe.


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

I respectfully disagree. I never once saw that horse endanger her safety other than when it did what she asked it to do...walk behind her. 

And while I get the whole respect space thing...what he did was a minor infraction that was punished by over 10 minutes of leadrope flicking. 

I have said it before and I will say it again. If I were a horse, I would be more terrorized by having someone 'buzz my tower' with a leadrope than actually hitting me. I cannot see how the leadrope flicking really works...if you can call that flicking. I can't believe that in this day and age that it is acceptable, and daresay trendy, to be whipping a leadrope around aimed at purely INTIMIDATING a horse. 

I totally disagree with this video.


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## nobody2121 (Sep 6, 2010)

in the beginning that horse didnt know they exsisted,was not looking to them at all, it changed by the end


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

Did you not hear the noise of bone and metal? And she did hit the horse with the whip as well..

I don't agree with the video, it just looks like stupid people trying to train a horse without sucesse (sp?) There are much easier and more effective ways of getting the horse out of your space.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

There are much better way of doing it. 

I also subscribe to the 3 second rule which they clearly have no concept of. 

You want the horse to make the mistake so you can correct it. However this MUST be done with in the first 3 second and the correction should last no longer then 3 seconds. Then ask them to do what ever it is you want. If they make a mistake you correct them again. Again which this was not.

You make the wrong thing hard and the right thing easy. Again something that they where not doing. There is no need to hit a horse in the head at any point. With a snap or not.


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

One more thing and I promise Ill stop.

Where does this stop? The horse obviously made attempts to do as they wished...even just a few moments in. No praise. How is he to know that he did the right thing when there is no release of pressure and no praise? After the first few tries by the owner and linda, he was trying...scrambling even for the answer. 

Heres how I saw it

Owner flicks rope
Horse Freezes
Owner continues to flick rope
Horse moves backwards
Owner continues to flick rope
Horse puts head in the air
Owner keeps flicking
Linda steps in
Flicks rope with intention
Horse backs up faster
Linda flicks HARDER
Horse has head in the air, stepping sideways, searching for the right answer
Linda flicks Harder yet
Horse runs past her and gets flicked again.

Where was the pressure/release in any of this? 

In the end, the horse looks more confused. I doubt he ever did find the 'answer' to what they were asking.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

*LP disciplining horse?*

I would first of all, before I did anything, take the metal clip off the leadline. Done! Now, it is useable to send a message and a strong one without inflicting PAIN. No need for that in most cases.

I do not think she is abusing the horse. It doesn't matter how far off from her body she decides the horse should be walking, as long as she is consistant about it. It's the horse's responsibility to maintain the correct distance, and the lead mare gets to decide what that distance is. She is the lead mare and her word is GOD. She will be amazingly severe if necessary . . ONCE. After that, usually only a pinned ear is necessary becuase the message got through the first time. 
SO, we need to be as hard as it takes. However, what bothered me was that she did not give a warning before the shake of the rope. She needs to decide what the signal is, a wagged finger, a waved elbow, a hissing sound, whatever the horse can percieve, then back it up with pressure, enough to make the horse react and remember. 
What I see Linda doing is that she isn't giving a warning, and she isn't giving that young horse much of an a release when he does comply AND he has almost no SAFE Zone. because she chastised him, he backed off, hit the end of the rope then she immediately started forward, he followed (as he has been taught to do and she practically immediately told him to back off again. ) He had about a 5 inch safe zone in there. Be real! He needs to have a larger area where there is no pressure to either stop or move off. Also, when she suddenly stopped or changed directions, she did it SO abruptly that the horse had no body language to read. She just stopped. She needs to lean her upper body back a little, then stop. That horse, if he's paying attentio will see the tiny shift in her body and know he has one second to respond in the safe zone, then he gets pressure. She doesn't give him a chance to think or prepare. He has no idea whats coming. Even the lead mare will pin her ears before biting or kicking.

As far as flining the rope up in the horse's face, shouldn't need to happen more than a few times, AFTER the warning . In and of itself, using such movements correctly are NOT cruel in my opinion.


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## Amir (Nov 18, 2009)

In leading that horse around all she had to do was pick up the lead rope and actually LEAD her horse CORRECTLY. If she held the rope just that little bit shorter she would have had more control. Then when the horse trotted up behind her, she would have been able to just give a simple tug back on it to get him to halt.
I laughed at the horse around the 9:04 mark where she was waving the rope around like a crazy and all the horse is doing is sniffing the ground and ignoring her :lol:


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

That is the critical word; Ignoring her. I didn't stay with the video long enough to see that part but I can tell you when my horse is on a lead, he is "working", Not grazing or going off elsewhere. I don't mean that he can't look at his surroundings, but he cannot blow me off if I ask for his attention. He cannot go off to graze while I open and close the gate. he cannot go off to sniff other horses., He WILL try , he will think about that, and that's when I REMIND him that I am still there. If he ignores a polite reminder such as voice or a tiny wiggle of the rope, then the reminder gets big enough to get his mind back to ME. 
When he is off line in his pasture or along in a paddock eating, I do NOT expect him to pay attention to me and I stay out of his face.

That is one reason I do not support hand grazing, though I realize that sometimes there is not choice if you want to give your horse some fresh green grass. It is a muddy middle ground; he is being "lead" and should be respecting your directions, but at the same time his mind is on grazing; a singularly pleasurable activity for horses and he will naturally want to "roam" looking for the tastiest bites. he will not have his human first in mind. and he doesn't have the freedom to just eat fully as a horse. However, like I said, sometimes it's better than never letting him get the joy of grazing, as many urband horse so rarely do.

I really believe the the physical action of grazing, the tearing of the grass and the small motions of the neck , pull. pull. pull and the delicate movements of lips discerning the tasty green bits from the manure spoiled stuff . .. . this is mesmerizingly pleasureable for horses and is not equalled by eating hay from a feeder or even from the floor. The action is not the same.
What do you think?
My space, his space.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

I do not allow hand grazing for several reasons. One is that when I lead them I do not want them to keep trying to graze. Next and most important. I do not want them eating grass at shows or trying to. They do not eat anything off the ground at a horse show. So it is just easier to say no all the time.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

PP can't have been proud of this segment, because it is obsolete, along with the entire "blue" Level 2; their new Level 2, I read, is PP doing the demo's. not LP. Spirithorse can probably verify this.


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## Charis (Jul 6, 2010)

Watch the video without sound; it doesn't make any sense. There is no consistency; the horse tries behavior A, and gets punished, just as he get punished for trying behavior B, C and D. To be honest, Linda and the owner both look terrifed of the animal. I'm personally just sick that they preach that their method is so natural and not forceful and very kind... how kind is a snap to the side of the jaw over and over again? I've hit myself on accident with those heavy snaps - they hurt! I clocked myself in the back of the head once by tossing a halter over my shoulder; it brought tears to my eyes. Now, the fact that Linda _wanted_ the woman to smack her horse's face with the snap makes me see red.


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## Amir (Nov 18, 2009)

I DID watch it without sound. Since I'm at work I couldn't :lol:
I've also hit myself in various places with those snaps and it bloody hurts! If my horse accidentally gets hit with them at all I feel horrible and love and pet him and appologie even though he has no idea what I'm saying.
I couldn't imagine doing it INTENTIONALLY and with that much FORCE.
With my old lease horse the owner wanted me to try PP with him, so I obliged and had a whack at it, so to speak. I physically couldn't bring myself to smack him in the jaw like that from shaking the lead. All I could do was jiggle it slightly so the snap moved, but no where near enough to come up to his jaw.


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## Jolly Badger (Oct 26, 2009)

Charis said:


> To be honest, Linda and the owner both look terrifed of the animal.


The above was also brought up on another horse forum - it seems rather common for the P's to call horses "dangerous" that are not actually dangerous. Linda also made a comment during the video about how it took her "ten years to learn this."

Ten years to learn. . .what? How to lead a horse? That's Basic Horsemanship 101. There are preteen kids and extreme novice riders at my barn who can do that, while having the confidence (and competence) to correct the horse if it is forging, lagging, or otherwise not paying attention to them. 

I guess it's good for the P's marketing, especially when they're going after an audience of new riders/owners who can't tell the difference between a "looky" horse and one that will actually _try_ to hurt them. 

In many ways, LP reminds me of a few people I know personally who will intentionally "pick a fight" with a horse they are working with in order to impress onlookers and make themselves look like a fearless tamer of wild horses.:lol: 

She's a total drama queen. . .nothing but flailing arms and fluttering fringed chaps and terrible timing.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I think LP meant that it took her ten years to be able to be as "BIG" as she was in the demo. Mind you , I found much fault with her demo also, but I also know that some folks are very timid with their horses and have a relationship with the horse where the human is on the bottom and the horse runs all over them. 99% of the time it won't really be an issue, but any horse, any horse that thinks he is dominant over his human could be dangerous. 
I don't know, maybe LP was trying to exagerate so that the young lady would see how to establish dominance over a horse. Sadly, she did paint it as a "fight" and picking a fight and she made the young white horse confused , as per my earlier post and some other folks's.
All horses have the capacity for danger. All of them.
And that doesn't mean they are out to get you. It's just that they are flight/prey animals and will do what they have to do to save their lives if they feel the need.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I think the concept is there. The problem with that is, only in my opinion... that in order to demonstrate the reaction, you have to first have the action. To me it seems that LP is not nearly has confident as she leads one to believe. This horse had issues. It really did invade their space and it really could be a dangerous situation if it were to try to run them over.

The horse would act up and they were slow in responding which made for a sloppy reaction. Then they would anticipate the behavior, before it came and react... too early. It wasn't a good demonstration at all but the concept was there.

I am in no way a defender of the Parrellis but I can understand what the overall intention was here.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

I will admit that I watched, but have not read all the comments yet. Saving that for primetime tonite! 

A couple of things re: how I saw it......I did think the horse needed the correction it got walking. However, I am not a fan of the whole "chicken dance" that LP does....perhaps because as I age my arms really flap??
Plus, it is unnecessary, at least to the extent she uses it. 

Yes, the clip hurts.....which is why it shouldn't be abused. It is a tool, similar to a bit, and compared to what another horse would do keep him in line-it is a fly bite. BUT-to keep asking the horse to back up when he has nowhere to go?? HELLO!!!! There is a HUGE tree there! Open your eyes people-let your grey cells rub together and use them! If you are going to ask for a back up, make **** sure there is a place for them to go! Especially when they are just learning! 

I also question LP and her chaps-are they permanently attached to her legs or something? It seems she is ALWAYS wearing them. Perhaps she need to always be ready to jump on a horse and take over.....who knows. 

Poor Holly looked scared to death....of both the horse and LP-she needs a backbone, not a rope....sorry, but true.

And yes, LP is a dramaqueen for sure. Can't stand her, personally, and not a huge fan of PP (AKA fruitcake on another thread) either. It just seems it all becomes so complicated when they do it. JMHO.

Sure hope PP doesn't win Road to the horse, I will probably ask for a refund.

More later.....off the wiggle my string a bit......:wink:


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## Lunarflowermaiden (Aug 17, 2010)

Spastic_Dove said:


> Is it me or the first time when she takes over the horse from 'Holly' her body language is just very overwhelming to the horse to begin with?


It is not just you, I noticed it as well. As soon as she took the lead rope, his head went even higher and his tail went straight up.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Jolly Badger said:


> The above was also brought up on another horse forum - it seems rather common for the P's to call horses "dangerous" that are not actually dangerous. * Linda also made a comment during the video about how it took her "ten years to learn this."*


Now THAT is totally hilarious (I watched the video also without the sound for some reason).


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## Jolly Badger (Oct 26, 2009)

tinyliny said:


> I don't know, maybe LP was trying to exagerate so that the young lady would see how to establish dominance over a horse. Sadly, she did paint it as a "fight" and picking a fight and she made the young white horse confused , as per my earlier post and some other folks's.
> All horses have the capacity for danger. All of them.
> And that doesn't mean they are out to get you. It's just that they are flight/prey animals and will do what they have to do to save their lives if they feel the need.


That's kind of what I was getting at.

If a person needs to learn confidence in handling a horse, that's understandable. They're big animals, and they're capable of causing injury without even meaning to. 

Still, it's not the horse's fault that its owner is timid. . .and it bothers me that LP's method for dealing with timid owners always seems to be to teach the owner to bully a horse that really isn't doing anything wrong.


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## nobody2121 (Sep 6, 2010)

Watched the tape again, just in case a missed something, i dont get the big up roar!

The horse wasnt under stress and the horse wasnt looking out for the owner in the beginning.

Remember watching Ray Hunt on a colt I was starting, he used the lead rope to on the horse and it was a loud smack.
*The thing I will never forget is the change he got, and the completely changed from that one moment.*


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

But was it ONE loud smack or a thousand cracks with the metal of a leadrope?


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## nobody2121 (Sep 6, 2010)

corinowalk said:


> But was it ONE loud smack or a thousand cracks with the metal of a leadrope?


I personally didnt see the horse troubled, he didnt seem head shy from it.
She(LP) can be hard to to watch at times, but didnt see any harm or anything wrong


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

Kay is it just me and nobody saw that she hit the horse in the head with the whip? Or do I need to get stronger glasses?


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

*These I agree with:*

I am guessing that she was teaching the human at the expense of the horse, which is a terrible shame. Right, LP wanted Holly to be safe & she could only be safe by being alpha.

It seems like she corrects the horse at random intervals and distances.

Is it me or the first time when she takes over the horse from 'Holly' her body language is just very overwhelming to the horse to begin with?

I do not see this as good training. It seems like an overreaction. The horse seems just as clueless as I am

He looked to me like he was getting more and more up as they progressed. He started out much more calm than he was at the point I stopped watching.

Where does this stop? The horse obviously made attempts to do as they wished...even just a few moments in. No praise. How is he to know that he did the right thing when there is no release of pressure and no praise? After the first few tries by the owner and linda, he was trying...scrambling even for the answer. In the end, the horse looks more confused. I doubt he ever did find the 'answer' to what they were asking.

What I see Linda doing is that she isn't giving a warning, and she isn't giving that young horse much of a release when he does comply AND he has almost no SAFE Zone. because she chastised him, he backed off, hit the end of the rope then she immediately started forward, he followed (as he has been taught to do and she practically immediately told him to back off again. ) He had about a 5 inch safe zone in there. Be real! He needs to have a larger area where there is no pressure to either stop or move off. Also, when she suddenly stopped or changed directions, she did it SO abruptly that the horse had no body language to read. She just stopped. She needs to lean her upper body back a little, then stop. That horse, if he's paying attention, will see the tiny shift in her body and know he has one second to respond in the safe zone, then he gets pressure. She doesn't give him a chance to think or prepare. He has no idea whats coming. Even the lead mare will pin her ears before biting or kicking.

As far as flinging the rope up in the horse's face, shouldn't need to happen more than a few times, AFTER the warning . In and of itself, using such movements correctly are NOT cruel in my opinion

The above was also brought up on another horse forum - it seems rather common for the P's to call horses "dangerous" that are not actually dangerous. 

In many ways, LP reminds me of a few people I know personally who will intentionally "pick a fight" with a horse they are working with in order to impress onlookers and make themselves look like a fearless tamer of wild horses.:lol: LP learned that from PP.  It only happens sporadically, is the good news.

It is not just you, I noticed it as well. As soon as she took the lead rope, his head went even higher and his tail went straight up. Although, sometimes this is a sign of recognizing a good handler & thus yielding respect to him. 

Still, it's not the horse's fault that its owner is timid. . .and it bothers me that LP's method for dealing with timid owners always seems to be to teach the owner to bully a horse that really isn't doing anything wrong.

There's a European woman on youtube who does it as it should be done: quietly, with instant rewards: Ellen O------ I believe is her name, & I think she's Swedish.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

farmpony84 said:


> I'm not a Parrelli fan but I didn't see any abuse in the video. That pony was trying to run past her each time they changed directions, That rider was probably pretty nervous dealing with a horse that had ground manners like that. I personally don't want to be run past and run down when walking my horse. I think she was actually teaching her correctly.


I agree. Linda was doing what so many horse owners are unwilling to do. She was putting consequenses to the unwanted behavior. Was the horse confused? Of course it was. When has learning something completely different than what you are used to not been confusing. Was the horse calmer at the beginning? Of course it was. The horse had been running people over its entire life and was very comfortable doing so. What I found the most disappointing is that the young woman couldn't grasp walking with a purpose and getting her own energy up to control the horse.

The more of the Parrelli ground manner stuff I see the more I like it. I still don't like the circus tricks and other riding BS but I saw alot of things I liked in this video. *I didn't watch it all the way through so if Linda takes a golf club to the horse or sets it on fire my previous statement no longer stands.*


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> The more of the Parrelli ground manner stuff I see the more I like it. I still don't like the circus tricks and other riding BS but *I saw alot of things I liked in this video*.


Bolding mine.

Sorry, Kevin, I used to have lots of respect for you as a trainer. 

There is no way one can watch that video and say there are lots of things they liked.

I am all for horses having consequences for their wrong actions and I understand horses are confused when learning something new.

But it is wrong to just whale on them with out giving them a chance to know what they are supposed to do, and no one where in that video do they ever clearly tell that poor gray what it is they want from it.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

kevinshorses said:


> She was putting consequenses to the unwanted behavior.
> 
> The more of the Parrelli ground manner stuff I see the more I like it. I still don't like the circus tricks and other riding BS but I saw alot of things I liked in this video.


 
EXCEPT a huge part of the program is based on NON reaction. If the horse doesn't do it right - supposedly the human is in the wrong. That is something a few of us have been frustrated with for MANY years.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

mls said:


> EXCEPT a huge part of the program is based on NON reaction. If the horse doesn't do it right - supposedly the human is in the wrong. That is something a few of us have been frustrated with for MANY years.


Great point MLS. You can not really have it both ways Kevin, Either you like what you see in this video or you like what the PP program spews every where else. They completely contradict each other.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

mls said:


> EXCEPT a huge part of the program is based on NON reaction. If the horse doesn't do it right - supposedly the human is in the wrong. That is something a few of us have been frustrated with for MANY years.


When the horse doesn't do right it usually is the the human in the wrong.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> When the horse doesn't do right it usually is the the human in the wrong.



So, the horse never got it right (obviously because they kept correcting it) in this video. Does that mean LP was doing it wrong? Does that not conflict with what you said before?


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

kevinshorses said:


> When the horse doesn't do right it usually is the the human in the wrong.


Thus LP was in the wrong for smacking the horse in the face.

Thank you.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

mls said:


> EXCEPT a huge part of the program is based on NON reaction. *If the horse doesn't do it right - supposedly the human is in the wrong.* That is something a few of us have been frustrated with for MANY years.


However some will still blame the horse instead of stepping aside and think why it didn't work.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

I won't argue with you about this. If you don't like what you see in the video then don't do it. Nobody is holding a gun to your head (if they are then do it any way they tell you). When your training, you have to do alot of correcting at first and then less and less. I saw a horse that was continueing to push on the handlers space and running past and that is why it was being corrected alot. I didn't see that it was corrected when it stayed as far back as the handler desired. You should be able to lead a horse and keep that horse as far or as close to you as you need to. As situations change the safest place for you to lead your horse will change as well. LP is not a great horseman. Niether is PP but what she is trying to teach the young woman in this video is sound and if the girl will grab hold of it and use it she and the horse will be better off. I personally prefer to develop "feel" with my horses and not rely on a clip or a stick or a string but 90% of horse owners don't have the time, patience or desire to develop the proper feel and timing so they use programs like the Parelli's and Clinton Andersons that teach the how without teaching the why. That's better than nothing and helps alot of people get along better with thier horses and stay safe.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

The European woman is Ellen Ofstad, sometimes just Ellen O, or Ellen of Stad. There's a video of her handling a horse gone right-brain, like Barney, the one-eyed Thoroughbred that LP dealt with, which I love, for its quietness, clarity, & rewarding of the slightest try. I think anyone who sees it would agree that that's correct handling of a horsre gone right-brain. 

No doubt, with a horse with more left-brain issues, like Holly's Arab, Ellen would've done far less, if any, whacking the chin with a snap, backing the horse up very far, getting the horse to want to leave by overdoing it, etc.


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## ImagineThat (Sep 18, 2010)

Northern said:


> The European woman is Ellen Ofstad, sometimes just Ellen O, or Ellen of Stad. There's a video of her handling a horse gone right-brain, like Barney, the one-eyed Thoroughbred that LP dealt with, which I love, for its quietness, clarity, & rewarding of the slightest try. I think anyone who sees it would agree that that's correct handling of a horsre gone right-brain.
> 
> No doubt, with a horse with more left-brain issues, like Holly's Arab, Ellen would've done far less, if any, whacking the chin with a snap, backing the horse up very far, getting the horse to want to leave by overdoing it, etc.


I seriously hope you are not talking about this 




 
That is the worst horsmanship ever! That horse didn't want to pay attention, or stand still. Ok, then, move! I would do more Clinton style with this one, send him off and teach him to yield his hindquarters... Keep him moving. Once he started trying to look at ME, I would offer him to stop and stand. You can't make a horse stand still, especially not by continuous yanking on his poor face. I have no problems with bumping ones nose while leading or lunging... but a small, quick bump to get them off my hand (leaning/pulling on me).
All I see is Linda yanking and snatching, great way to make the poor one eyed horse head shy. You can actually hear the poor thing groaning as she yanks and whacks him with the snap.


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## ImagineThat (Sep 18, 2010)

Yikes! I am obviously new to THIS forum, so I can't figure out how to edit my post. 
NORTHERN : I totally missed that you were talking about Ellens clip... just found it. I am about to watch now.... SO SORRY that I thought you meant Linda's was the right way. So, I still wanted to say what I did about it, but disregard that it was directed at you! Sorry!!!!!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

You will reignite the fire with that one. That is just about the WORST demonstration of "natural" horsemanship I have EVER seen. Is that for real? ARe people really paying this woman to ruin their horses? Unbelievable. I had absolutely no idea what she was going for at any one time, and neither did the horse. He never once get a moment of relief to know that he had done the right things. Terrible with a capitol T!


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## ladybugsgirl (Aug 12, 2009)

The video didn't work anyone know where I can find it to watch...


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## ladybugsgirl (Aug 12, 2009)

so usually your suppose to barely wiggle the rope and then if the horse does'nt respond you move up in phases. You don't just start out yanking and pulling on the horse. This is why I don't do paralli anymore


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## ladybugsgirl (Aug 12, 2009)

I noticed that back when I got my second horse Reba in 2006 i went to a parelli expo and have to admit it wasn't like it is today... Poor horse.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

The video has been yanked off of YouTube due to copyright issues with the Parelli folks. It is much worse than the one with the little gray Arab. I was mildly supportive of LP for that one in that I felt that the careful and precise use of pressure, even a good slap with the leadline, is not out of line if necessary. But the totally confusing way that LP works with the bay horse is really disheartening. The horse is so confused, he doesn't know what to do to get this woman out of his face. And she is often so close to him that if he did get irritable about and try to strike out, she'd be toast.


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## Lunarflowermaiden (Aug 17, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> The video has been yanked off of YouTube due to copyright issues with the Parelli folks. It is much worse than the one with the little gray Arab. I was mildly supportive of LP for that one in that I felt that the careful and precise use of pressure, even a good slap with the leadline, is not out of line if necessary. But the totally confusing way that LP works with the bay horse is really disheartening. The horse is so confused, he doesn't know what to do to get this woman out of his face. And she is often so close to him that if he did get irritable about and try to strike out, she'd be toast.


Which video? Because the one posted on the last page still works.


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## ImagineThat (Sep 18, 2010)

Lunarflowermaiden said:


> Which video? Because the one posted on the last page still works.


The original one posted, with the gray horse. :???:

Might not be long before the one I posted gets deleted, too.... if the Parelli's had to do with the original video's deletion.


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## Twigletta (Sep 21, 2010)

Parelli sucks!


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Wow. She is an idiot IMO. She gives ONE good boy in the entire video, and the horse is trying. What happened to "reward the slightest effort", LP? If that was my horse and I was right there, she WOULD have had the rope used on her, guaranteed! And my horse would have been outta there before she could blink!

Personally, I am a little concerned.......I am moving my guy home in a month, and the only barn who does ANY western is 40 min away, and a Parelli barn. :-(


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Does anyone blame the owner of the horse? I realize it is LP doing it, but the owner has taken her horse there and is letting it happen. Are they so brainwashed and just have more money than sense?

I have a trainer that I love and trust, but if she were doing something that just felt wrong, I would ask her to stop until we at least talked about it and I was in agreement.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

She seems like a newbie horse owner. For all she knows this is exactly how to handle the situation. This is exactly the crowd that the parellis seem to cater to which is what worries me. They are not yet to the point where they can judge what to follow and what not to -- They do whatever the trainer tells them to.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Spastic_Dove said:


> She seems like a newbie horse owner. For all she knows this is exactly how to handle the situation. This is exactly the crowd that the parellis seem to cater to which is what worries me. They are not yet to the point where they can judge what to follow and what not to -- They do whatever the trainer tells them to.


I can see that, but at the same time some common sense needs to come into it. I don't know much about pigs for example, but I can imagine having a problem with someone cattle prodding one all the time. 
I would have thought that people seeking out NH are looking for a kind and gentle way of doing things and that repeatedly hitting a horse with the clip of a rope would make them just wonder a little.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Very true. I have no idea. I was trying to be well thought out, but in all reality, I think they're brainwashed...


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Naive people are drawn in by the glamour of the 3 ring circus with the picnic tables and cow-colored barrels. They don't have enough horsey common sense to realize that the $15 halter and lead from the local tack store are the same exact thing and they think that only PP equipment and PP methods can get them into that circus. I think it is kind-of a "monkey see, monkey do" type thing. I mean after all, PP_ founded_ this method and if he suddenly decides that whapping a horse in the face with a snap or tying a leg up while using a gumline twitch is okay, then he must be right..........right? :roll:


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

smrobs said:


> Naive people are drawn in by the glamour of the 3 ring circus with the picnic tables and cow-colored barrels. They don't have enough horsey common sense to realize that the $15 halter and lead from the local tack store are the same exact thing and they think that only PP equipment and PP methods can get them into that circus. I think it is kind-of a "monkey see, monkey do" type thing. I mean after all, PP_ founded_ this method and if he suddenly decides that whapping a horse in the face with a snap or tying a leg up while using a gumline twitch is okay, then he must be right..........right? :roll:


And this is what is frightening to me. Someone must be able to make an independent thought for themselves, or they have no business owning a horse IMO. Just because they (or daddy) can afford the horse doesn't mean that they are not a complete idiot. 

As I said, I completely trust my instructor, and would trust my horses life to her - but if she did something that made me uneasy, I would ask her to stop and explain it to me.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

And that right there is probably why you don't follow Parelli, because you can think for yourself. Unfortunately, this world is chock full of lemmings.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

smrobs said:


> And that right there is probably why you don't follow Parelli, because you can think for yourself. Unfortunately, this world is chock full of lemmings.


I watch as much of the free Parelli that I can find, along with the other NH stuff. In fact I watch as much horse training techniques as I can - but I pick and choose what makes common sense to me, and what works with my horse. 
My current gelding responds really well to some NH techniques, my previous mare would have laughed in my face at it if she could, as she was the most stubborn, opinionated Alpha mare I have ever met. I wish I still had her, and the money to take her to PP I imagine she would have given him a very rough time.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

smrobs said:


> Naive people are drawn in by the glamour of the 3 ring circus with the picnic tables and cow-colored barrels. They don't have enough horsey common sense to realize that the $15 halter and lead from the local tack store are the same exact thing and they think that only PP equipment and PP methods can get them into that circus. I think it is kind-of a "monkey see, monkey do" type thing. I mean after all, PP_ founded_ this method and if he suddenly decides that whapping a horse in the face with a snap or tying a leg up while using a gumline twitch is okay, then he must be right..........right? :roll:


I think cow-colored barrels are VERY cool! I wish I would have one in ring as a decoration! But I only have those ugly white ones (I use to keep my halter and lead on while I ride)...


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> I think cow-colored barrels are VERY cool! I wish I would have one in ring as a decoration! But I only have those ugly white ones (I use to keep my halter and lead on while I ride)...


Take the white barrel and get some of that black paint that if for plastic and paint a cow pattern on the barrel.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I don't like Parelli... I no likey likey... BUT....

I have to admit, there have been several instances where videos have been posted causing uproars, and then folks like Smrobs ro Kevin have come and said something like....

"This is what they are TRYING to show us, this is what the horse is doing, this why it's a bad thing, this is what they are trying to do, this is how you fix this problem and this is why it needs to be fixed..." and then they've said... "This is how I would have done it....." and I've learned a ton.

So in a way, I like the NH section and even the Parelli videos because the folks from THIS forum can break them apart and really explain the how's and the why's... It's a great way to learn.....


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

nrhareiner said:


> Take the white barrel and get some of that black paint that if for plastic and paint a cow pattern on the barrel.


That's a good idea.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

Nice post farmpony84!


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