# Controversy Of Modern Arabian Breeding



## Reno Bay

Uneducated and/or "breed-biased" people will always have something negative to say about something they don't like or don't know about and assume they won't like it.

I've honestly never heard of any of these claims. Heck, I used to jump a nice little Arab mare a bit more than a decade ago...stubborn as heck, but amazing jumper.


----------



## Copperhead

Horse breeds tend to change in appearance through the years due to different styles and what judges like. If the arabian breed has changed since the year 123BC, its because humans prefer a certain "look". Perfect example of this is the QH. 

Never heard of an arab out there with a breathing problem.

Anything thats shown as the chance of being altered or abused for the show ring. I've heard of eyelining tattoos as well. We could get into all kinds of abusive methods, depending on what discipline we're talking about. These methods aren't solely "arabian" methods though and a lot of other breeds suffer from it.


----------



## Faceman

Let's be honest...Americans are notorious for breeding to asthetic or performance goals that are not necessarily in the best interest of the animal, be it horses, dogs, chickens, or whatever. Over-specialization, whether for performance or aesthetics, is a poor breeding practice the majority of the time.

Are those things about Arabs true? I don't know - certainly not with the Arabs I have had...I'm just saying...


----------



## Nightside

I've heard the one about them having breathing problems and with those that have severely dished faces, I could see why it is believable. I'm not a fan of Arabs and likely won't ever have one, especially not one with a goofy looking face. Don't mean to offend the Arab people that like the look, but not for me. To me, there is a big difference between breed trait and a deformity, and people like to toe that line, as Faceman pointed out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TheBayArab

Yes, but it is only a deformity if it has adverse effects on the health at all times. We are talking head shape, not an extra limb xD. I have heard of one case where an arab had tooth problems because of the head shapes, but that is the only case that I know of. I have heard that there have been hoof problems with quarter horses due to flesh/hoof ratio (lots of muscle and fat, tiny hooves) although not working much with quarter horses I would not know if this is true or not.


----------



## Nightside

I have heard that halter quarters sometimes have this issue because the fashionable thing is/was a muscled up monster with a baby doll face and those with dainty feet did have issues holding up all that weight. I would post a picture of what I consider deformed but I am pretty sure that horse belongs or is related to someones on here and I don't want to offend. Adelicate or sloping face is one thing but if their lips don't even come close to lining up, that can't be good.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Copperhead

I did a quick search and found this guy:










Every breed has their different traits that people will try to breed the crap out of. Its not always for the best interest of the horse and its mostly for style. I heard that the "dish face" enables the horse to breathe better (read it somewhere in a book) for some reason I can't remember. But what about a severe dish face? Would it hinder the breathing at all?


----------



## Copperhead

The QH "flesh/hoof ratio" is a pretty true style in halter classes. Luckily this isn't desired anymore. I heard of a halter bred QH who bulked out on his own, but his feet were so tiny that he became navicular by the age of 5.

This is just another example of "excessive breed trait"...when things go a bit overboard.










Thats gotta be close to draft weight on average horse hooves.


----------



## Muppetgirl

Copperhead said:


> The QH "flesh/hoof ratio" is a pretty true style in halter classes. Luckily this isn't desired anymore. I heard of a halter bred QH who bulked out on his own, but his feet were so tiny that he became navicular by the age of 5.
> 
> This is just another example of "excessive breed trait"...when things go a bit overboard.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thats gotta be close to draft weight on average horse hooves.


Gee! Is that photoshopped?? It looks like a bull!


----------



## Reno Bay

Copperhead said:


> The QH "flesh/hoof ratio" is a pretty true style in halter classes. Luckily this isn't desired anymore. I heard of a halter bred QH who bulked out on his own, but his feet were so tiny that he became navicular by the age of 5.
> 
> This is just another example of "excessive breed trait"...when things go a bit overboard.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thats gotta be close to draft weight on average horse hooves.


I want to look away...but I can't.
It reminds me of this image I found the other day: click
A jokingly-made rendering of a ridiculously buff horse...

I can understand wanting to accentuate certain traits, but there has to be a line drawn somewhere...


----------



## Muppetgirl

Ive seen quite a few nasty characteristics bred into all different kinds of horses, but pertaining to Arabs (and this being a personal preference) I just cannot seem to like anything about the squirrelly looking, stick legged, soup bowl faces of some of the halter Arabs. Although in saying that, some breeders tend to photograph them looking all frantic and wild, running around snorting and generally just looking flighty and crazy......which does not help the publics perception of a breed which is already considered crazy in many circles. JMO.

One day I'd like to see some photos of Arabs relaxing


----------



## TheBayArab

Muppetgirl said:


> Ive seen quite a few nasty characteristics bred into all different kinds of horses, but pertaining to Arabs (and this being a personal preference) I just cannot seem to like anything about the squirrelly looking, stick legged, soup bowl faces of some of the halter Arabs. Although in saying that, some breeders tend to photograph them looking all frantic and wild, running around snorting and generally just looking flighty and crazy......which does not help the publics perception of a breed which is already considered crazy in many circles. JMO.
> 
> One day I'd like to see some photos of Arabs relaxing


I definitely agree. I am one of the few people who DO actually like that look (when they get excited) but it is certainly detrimental to their reputation. Most arabians I know _do_ have that tendency to be more spirited (with plenty of exceptions of course), but when trained properly are the sweetest, calmest, most intelligent horses I have yet to know. One example is a purebred gelding I knew named Coko. He was formerly a big time national level show horse in hunt seat, and later became an all-around lesson horse who could be ridden and climbed all over by children. I remember when he was let out of his pasture he would automatically walk all the way across the property, into the barn, around the indoor arena, and into his stall calmly. 

Even the most spirited arabians can be harnessed to be some of the best horses around if trained properly. I have a couple perfect examples myself 

Personally, I prefer the extra spirit. Especially since it is often accompanied by loyalty, willingness, and intelligence. To me it is like having a little extra challenge with lots of extra reward. Not saying they are the only breed with these traits, just saying I have yet to meet an arabian without them. I definitely love quarter horses as well.

EDIT: Those two photos that were posted (the arab and the quarter horse) were certainly extremes. I would probably say that we definitely need to be careful with how far we go in these sorts of appearances but that, in general, we have not yet hit that limit.


----------



## dbarabians

I do not breed any horse because of its head. That is the problem with the arabs now getting the ribbons in the show ring.
IMO if an arabian cannot go 25 miles or more with little to no conditioning then it fails a major test of the breed standards. Versatility, good hard feet, strong legs and tendons and yes spirit all should be considered before the dished face.
I own some very nice horses yet they could not win a ribbon in a major arabian show in the halter class.
Just as none of the leading sires and broodmares in the AQHA or APHA of reining or cutting horses stand a chance in the halter class in their breed shows.
I was very biased toward Egyptian Arabians for years becuase of the current trend in the halter classes .
I now own three straight egyptian mares and all are pretty athletic with nice but not extreme heads. Shalom


----------



## BBBCrone

Muppetgirl said:


> One day I'd like to see some photos of Arabs relaxing


Ask and you shall receive!!










Course, he is only 1/2 Arab ... but still! And nobody make fun of my kindergarten hand writing in paint shop :wink::wink:


----------



## Muppetgirl

BBBCrone said:


> Ask and you shall receive!!
> 
> View attachment 130152
> 
> 
> 
> Course, he is only 1/2 Arab ... but still! And nobody make fun of my kindergarten hand writing in paint shop :wink::wink:


Hahaha is it the paint 1/2 of him relaxing? :lol:


----------



## BBBCrone

LOL! Probably!


----------



## soenjer55

Copperhead said:


>


I believe that this mare is actually like this because of an incident and it's not actually natural, I can't remember the specifics but it was supposed to be something along the lines of her leg wrapping around her nose in the womb as she was developing... I mean, don't quote me or anything, but this isn't a face you forget haha.
I'm going to post my honest opinion, so excuse me if it offends anyone...

Honestly, I'm not impressed at all by the current arabian trends. I think that, like faceman said, people have been breeding for "thuper pwetty" looks and nothing else. Sometimes I look at pictures of arabians at shows like Scottsdale and think, wow, did that really win? Do they consider that a great representation of the breed?
I wouldn't put too much stock into the rumor about their breathing being impaired, though- although there are a lot of arabians that are too extreme for my personal tastes, I don't see many of them that are so far gone that they would without doubt have physical ailments such as that... the way I see it, there's a point where no matter how much meddling people do while trying to shape an animal to their special ideals, nature will put her foot down. A horse that has a nose so deformed that they can't properly breathe will not make it long enough to procreate much, whether because there just aren't enough people who like that extreme of a look or because they just can't handle the stress of living (assuming that they do anything that requires them to breathe...)
I am, however, going to say that arabians now- I can't speak for them world wide, but at least in the US- are not what they were before, judging from pictures and looking at it from a purely logical perspective. This seems logical to me as now horses in general are not asked to do what they did a while ago, therefore there is more room for humans to meddle with their genetics and bring forth serious deformities. My favorite example is the quarter horse. More specifically, the halter quarter horse. I cringe when I see the horses that win in that discipline, honestly... if you sent one of those back to the days when a qh was ridden all day, it wouldn't last more than a minute.
DB, sometimes I wish the arabian breed had to go through what warmblood breeds do- a test to qualify them, ha ha. Heck, I'd like qh's to do that too... if the standards aren't met, the horse isn't worth breeding.
I wish arabians today looked more like this guy, haha:


----------



## deserthorsewoman

I have seen plenty of advertising for super star Arabians in Europe and DID NOT RECOGNIZE them going into the mainring or coming out. Pics are photoshopped, horses hyped up to the max showing in hand. I can assure you all, they don't look like they look on fotos in every day life;-)
The grey in the pic......poor soul, that's not pretty, that's deformed. And I suppose somebody was even proud of it, judging by the pose and the frame.

Relaxed Arab....sorry, can't show a pic. Reason is, the pro fotographer couldn't take any pics, even after trying with plastic, mirrors, tape with stallions calling, mare in heat, the whole nine yards.....my 3 year old colt said it was siesta time and to he!! with the fotoshoot. Imagine, steel gray, hanging lower lip, ears on half mast, eyes almost closed......so, no pics of a relaxing Arab from me....
btw, as soon as fotowoman pulled out of the yard, he was all snort and blow........ Bas...rd......


----------



## grayshell38

Ta-da! My guys are always up for a nap.


----------



## Muppetgirl

grayshell38 said:


> Ta-da! My guys are always up for a nap.


Haha but they look ready to jump up and run! :lol:


----------



## deserthorsewoman

this is Gharib(Anterior x Suhair), straight Egyptian stallion, pic shows him still in Egypt. He was brought to Germany to Marbach State Stud. Before breeding he had to pass a 100 day test. Dressage, jumping, cross country, willingness, character. Against warmbloods. That was the rule in Germany and most of Europe then. He sired several sons who in turn sired sons who beat the warmblood stallions at the licensing. 
He was also licensed for Trakehner which is, to this day, one of the hardest things to achieve for a breeding stallion.
I had a granddaughter, and my relaxed stallion was her son. Here El Norus and Hadidi carry his blood.
So the ability is there, it's just not utilized anymore.


----------



## BarrelracingArabian

Compared to the arabs I am used to yes the ones being bred for showing(specially halter) tend to make me cringe a little. There are still good looking ones but I am used to sturdy looking horses that don't look like they are twigs. The guy i used to ride was 14.3 maybe and a thick boy with hardly if any dish to his face however that horse was rock solid. Now not saying they look horrible but there are many I've seen taken too far with the "dainty pwetty horsey" look. If you go back they are supposed to have some substance to em. Atleast all the ones I've seen from the early lines were anyways.


----------



## dbarabians

I have a daughter of Bask Flame that most people do not think is an arab. She is stocky and her head is not dished. She is purebred and would probably do well in Park or country english pleasure. In fact my vet and farrier think she is a Al Marah breeds very nice usable horses and that is my goal.
When a stallion can be advertised as winning most classic head or liberty classes as their only achievements then the breed is headed in the wrong direction.
the arabian horse has been around for thousands of years and there will always be breeders interested in maintaining the hardy arabian horse for the future. Shalom


----------



## tinyliny

BarrelracingArabian said:


> Compared to the arabs I am used to yes the ones being bred for showing(specially halter) tend to make me cringe a little. There are still good looking ones but I am used to sturdy looking horses that don't look like they are twigs. The guy i used to ride was 14.3 maybe and a thick boy with hardly if any dish to his face however that horse was rock solid. Now not saying they look horrible but there are many I've seen taken too far with the "dainty pwetty horsey" look. If you go back they are supposed to have some substance to em. Atleast all the ones I've seen from the early lines were anyways.


 
Dished like this?


----------



## Muppetgirl

tinyliny said:


> Dished like this?


Lol! Yes the seahorse look!


----------



## BarrelracingArabian

Tiny- yeah i think that's a bit extreme but like i said I'm used to very light amount of dish as the ones i was riding didnt have the bred to be pretty genes haha just bred to run/do endurance. I love seeing a horse with a dainty head and dish but some are just too far. I'm on my phone or I would post what I'm unsuccessfully saying haha.


----------



## Muppetgirl

Never mind.......


----------



## soenjer55

tinyliny said:


> Dished like this?


Looks like cartoon characters that smelled something good :lol:

"Is that.... pie I smell?"


----------



## dbarabians

Sorry everyone I must have deleted a part of my post above.
It was supposed to state that my vet and farrier think my mare is a morgan.
Also that Al Marah breeds the type of arabian that is versatile.
sorry for the typo. 
There are plenty of solid good looking arabians with nice short heads. Refined as well as athletic You just wont find them in the show ring in certain classes.
That is a shame. Shalom


----------



## TheBayArab

I certainly do not mind the extreme look, but I definitely agree that health and performance should come first. It appears to me that the extreme breeding is shown more so in the US, though I could be wrong. If you as me, these people have the right idea. They don't seem to be trying to prevent a dished head, and it still turns up. These arabians clearly have a more athletic build while maintaining that classic arab look. 

Some of my favorite foundation sires are Nazeer and his son Aswan.











I traced Nazeer's sire's line back and this is the oldest one with a photo that I could find, and he looks almost the same as some of today's arabians, plus has a beautiful strong body.









Now that I have looked at this, the breeding goals of some arabians seem to be going in a potentially adverse direction, however the classic style seems to be going strong. 

As for photos of arabians relaxing, I have several of my baby boy <3









Though admittedly, he is normally more "ooh, a traffic cone/leadrope/ball, let's play with it!" than relaxed xD


----------



## deserthorsewoman

Another Nazeer son, Kaisoon, licensed and performance tested, at age 22 at a show. He lived in a zoo until he died and worked as a school horse for children while being used for breeding also


----------



## dbarabians

I enjoy a nice refined dished face but I want the body to be able to withstand training in diverse disciplines and hold up for years of service. Shalom


----------



## Horsesdontlie

The only thing I could think of the issues some people have for what they 'think' is arab halter showing is this. That and a lot of people dislike arabs, and try to find reasons for it. 'Its bred into them....ect' I found a video of why some people may think is abuse. I know very little of the arabian halter world, so I'm not going to really comment on the video itself.

This is where people get their stigma, I believe. They watch videos like this (edited to only show the worst) and think "all arabian shows must be like this, all the time". 






Then there is what I think of when I think or arabian halter showing:






There is a lot of whip waving, and some correction to horses that get too excited or ignoring their handlers cues. But overall, I don't see abuse. Thats MHO.


----------



## TheBayArab

Horsesdontlie said:


> The only thing I could think of the issues some people have for what they 'think' is arab halter showing is this. That and a lot of people dislike arabs, and try to find reasons for it. 'Its bred into them....ect' I found a video of why some people may think is abuse. I know very little of the arabian halter world, so I'm not going to really comment on the video itself.
> 
> This is where people get their stigma, I believe. They watch videos like this (edited to only show the worst) and think "all arabian shows must be like this, all the time".
> 
> Shankers - All Nations Cup, Aachen 2011 - YouTube
> 
> Then there is what I think of when I think or arabian halter showing:
> 
> 2011 Class 71 Region 12 Arabian Geldings 2 & Over Open - YouTube
> 
> There is a lot of whip waving, and some correction to horses that get too excited or ignoring their handlers cues. But overall, I don't see abuse. Thats MHO.


Most of the big halter shows that I have seen are somewhere in between that. In the first one, I don't really understand the random jerks of the shank. I use a shank on my arab (Hero) but I only use it like that if he bites me, etc. Otherwise it just makes it easier for him to pinpoint my signals. 

Most halter classes I have seen are more like this: 




I have seen lots of halter classes but I have never shown in them and certain things sort of make me nervous. First of all, why are they so excited? I guess since it brings out their movement they are just brought up to get excited in the ring, but I think it would be much more ideal to show them relaxed. I also don't like the blatant disregard of ground manners, but maybe they are more behaved outside of the ring? The horses calm in the lineup, so perhaps they have some kind of signal for when it is okay to get riled up. Excessive shanking is definitely something that bugs me, and from my experience the owners who show their horses like that won't place very well. I have spent years perfecting Hero's ground manners and I wouldn't risk it by showing him like this. For the most part, I don't see this style of showing them off as abusive so much as a lot less than ideal. I would say that in hand they should be shown to be calm, and if having them get riled up and gallop around is really necessary then we should do so off the lead rope. By that I mean like people do in liberty; one horse at a time in a closed arena separate from the handler. That way shanking is not necessary and it would be just generally safer.


----------



## deserthorsewoman

Couldn't watch the first video, not available on cell. Second video....watched six horses, 5 of them clearly scared of any movement of the leading hand. Period. The gray being the one most clearly demonstrating fear.


----------



## TheBayArab

deserthorsewoman said:


> Couldn't watch the first video, not available on cell. Second video....watched six horses, 5 of them clearly scared of any movement of the leading hand. Period. The gray being the one most clearly demonstrating fear.


I would disagree. I do not think it is directed at the leading hand so much as the whip with the baggie on the end, which from what I hear is used to keep the horse's ears forward. Other than that I think the excitement comes from the yelling in the arena and the owner running beside the horse. I know some people who show halter and their horses look like this in the arena but are fine on ground and have good relationships with their owners. Also from watching them practice outside of the shows with the horses perfectly calm, I don't think it is the person they are focusing on. I think if the horses were truly terrified they wouldn't be focusing on their owner's signals instead of sprinting off into the wall. Of course, like I said, I would prefer a more calm and mannered environment.


----------



## Horsesdontlie

I somewhat agree along those lines. I understand wanting to show the high refined neck and the floating trot and the flagging tail. Which typically requires a higher energy state. But the bad ground manners (I swear the grey stud was going to nail his handler in the first video I posted) seems to me bizarre, I would want to show off easy control, and a respectful horse. 

The arabs that I know all come from my school's breeding farm. (Kellogg Arabians)

They look a lot different then arabians I've known before. Not as dished faces, wider set then I would have thought. They use them mostly to sell, and don't show much as far as I know. Seem to mostly train for saddleseat.


----------



## deserthorsewoman

TheBayArab said:


> I would disagree. I do not think it is directed at the leading hand so much as the whip with the baggie on the end, which from what I hear is used to keep the horse's ears forward. Other than that I think the excitement comes from the yelling in the arena and the owner running beside the horse. I know some people who show halter and their horses look like this in the arena but are fine on ground and have good relationships with their owners. Also from watching them practice outside of the shows with the horses perfectly calm, I don't think it is the person they are focusing on. I think if the horses were truly terrified they wouldn't be focusing on their owner's signals instead of sprinting off into the wall. Of course, like I said, I would prefer a more calm and mannered environment.


sorry, but especially the gray jerked away when the handler lifted the "rein" hand starting the trot...that's fear of possible shanking, IMO....the others I'd be willing to discuss;-)


----------



## BlueSpark

I have issues with any breed that is bred either 
a)so specifically bred for one purpose that the animal as a whole suffers, 
b) bred for looks to the point it can no longer be used for the original purpose of the breed.

I see race horses with stick legs and poor feet, but the desire, heart and lungs to run, halter qh's that cannot stay sound for pleasure riding, never mind running a quarter mile or working cows, and many arabs that are bred extensivly for halter, with overly dished faces, tiny feet and extremely light bone structure. Worst of all, a breed known for courage, loyalty and intelligence has many examples today that have such poor minds they cant even be decent saddle horses. I worked with one that was awful to ride, super spooky, and dumb. she would run from her own shadow, and spooked ontop of her foal, twice, in the open pasture. she was gorgeous and halter bred.

as far as show ring abuse, I think it happens in many disaplines and breeds, not just arabs.


----------



## TheBayArab

deserthorsewoman said:


> sorry, but especially the gray jerked away when the handler lifted the "rein" hand starting the trot...that's fear of possible shanking, IMO....the others I'd be willing to discuss;-)


I didn't look specifically at the grey. You could be right, I know I have seen excessive shanking in halter classes that really bugs me :/ I understand how with horses physical punishment is the way they communicate to correct disrespectful behavior in other horses, but sometimes they seem to shank randomly and it just seems a little harsh for repeated shanking since it is on a sensitive area plus the same spot over and over.


----------



## Copperhead

The first video reminded me of fish wriggling at the end of a hook. Wasn't pretty.


----------



## BBBCrone

Good thing I'm not a judge. Because I'd be a hated and unemployed one. First time some handler shanked a horse like some of those did in those videos (for no good reason IMO) I'd have DQ'd them on the spot. Why is this type of thing being put up with? I'll never ever understand it.


----------



## sarahver

TheBayArab said:


> Most of you arabian horse lovers are probably aware of these things, but I am just wondering about the truth behind these claims.
> 
> *#1* *People are saying* that arabians have breathing problems due to their head shapes. Of course most people know that the head shape of an arabian is bred to AID in breathing, although I suppose it could be possible that when bred to an extreme there could be issues. People also say things like they are too delicate, which is untrue (although their bones are smaller, they are also much more dense). But I have never seen or heard of a case where arabs have had issues due to their build, which makes me suspicious that these statements are just rumors starting by people who dislike the appearance and want to disguise their opinions as fact. I could be wrong.
> 
> *#2* Then there is this thing *people are saying* about how "real" arabians do not look like this, that in the beginning they were much "healthier" and "normal" looking. I suppose I could agree (with not much research) that most of the older photos of the breed have not looked quite the same, but is that not always true for every breed? Every book I have read states that the arabian breed in particular is more similar to its ancestors than almost every other breed.
> 
> *#3* "Arabian horses are abused in the show ring, especially the halter-bred arabs." This one I disagree with a great deal. *Most of what these people talk about* includes shaving, waxing, and greasing of the facial areas, and apparently plucking of the eyelashes which I have never heard of. Another thing that I have never seen is the eye tattooing. Equipment-wise, people have said the shanks, etc are abusive. I do not doubt that these things exist, and I would also say that the waxing, eyelash plucking, and tattooing sounds fairly abusive, although having never seen it firsthand I would not know. As for shanks, they can of course, like any other piece of equipment, be used wrongfully. However, not only is the abuse recognized by judges in the showring and punished by the AHA, but is rare. You can find abuse for EVERY breed.
> 
> Please do not reply to this thread if you do not have anything to say that is not based on experience or fact, or basically try to be mature and not hateful. If you want to share something you have heard or that someone told you go ahead, just like I said be mature not hateful. This is meant to be more of a scientific evidence conversation than a moral one, although morals obviously do have a place here.


People talk crap all the time. Especially horse people. Disregard until the sentence begins with "studies show" rather than "people say".


----------



## WSArabians

I haven't heard of anything in regards to breathing issues with the Arabians. It's not a deformity, it's a breed trait, just like the high tail carriage. It can most definitely be bred to be more prominent - but I've never heard it causing issues.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "real Arabians" looked like this - Do you mean the lighter boned, more refined type? In the older days, I absolutely have seen a lot more body and bone on Arabians then you do most days now - however I still find it more type specific ie/ Polish Vs. Egyptian Arabians - back then and still now.
As Faceman said, people breed pretty (guilty as charged - I don't want to breed ugly - I'm a breeder, I still need a market - but I won't sacrifice legs for a pretty head, either) and if a pretty head is all you're after, all the power to you but it limits your market. Sometimes when you focus on one trait, such as a really pretty head, you lose some of the other conformation, like a good hindquarter. 

This is my mostly Polish mare - Also my least "typey" as well. 



















Not halter pretty, but it's hard for me, to find one much more perfect than this gal.  

As for the show ring abuse - this will happen in any breed, any where. Look at Walkers and the Big Lick and Soring. It's people pay to have that done to their horses. As long as there is stupid people motivated by money there will always be show ring abuse.
I really want to show my guy in Halter this year but he's sort of a dead beat so he won't do the whole "I'M GONNA RUN AWAY FROM YOU!!!!" in the ring and look all pretty so we probably won't win but the experience will be great for him - Sporthorse is where my eye is really at.  
I've seen some great trainers that can train Halter just fine and other's that turn them into nervous wrecks - it's all people. Just research.


----------



## WSArabians

Muppetgirl said:


> One day I'd like to see some photos of Arabs relaxing


Want crazy Ay-rabs relaxing?

I caught Roxy at a nap. We couldn't wake her up even by stuffing oats and green grass in her mouth! Oh, and Tiff's finger in her ear. LOL



















Hard to beat that one. LOL


----------



## BBBCrone

I love your girl, WSA (sorry I abbreviated, I'm a lazy person). I think she's stunning.


----------



## WSArabians

BBBCrone said:


> I love your girl, WSA (sorry I abbreviated, I'm a lazy person). I think she's stunning.


Thanks! Steff would work too.  LOL
I can't wait for my Zina baby this year!

And my previous posts was supposed to say "I'm NOT going to run away.." Not going too. Because that's his issue.


----------



## Muppetgirl

WSArabians said:


> Want crazy Ay-rabs relaxing?
> 
> I caught Roxy at a nap. We couldn't wake her up even by stuffing oats and green grass in her mouth! Oh, and Tiff's finger in her ear. LOL
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hard to beat that one. LOL


Bahahahaha Bahahahaha Bahahahaha!!!!......we've gone full circle from over-caffeinated ADHD Arabs........to 'neeeeeiiiiigggghhh I'm in a coma and can't get up':lol:


----------



## WSArabians

Muppetgirl said:


> Bahahahaha Bahahahaha Bahahahaha!!!!......we've gone full circle from over-caffeinated ADHD Arabs........to 'neeeeeiiiiigggghhh I'm in a coma and can't get up':lol:


She is normally lazy, but that day was interesting. We actually had to walk over and make sure she was still alive. LOL 
I get to start her this year... Should be interesting. :shock:


----------



## Muppetgirl

WSArabians said:


> She is normally lazy, but that day was interesting. We actually had to walk over and make sure she was still alive. LOL
> I get to start her this year... Should be interesting. :shock:


Hmmm well she will likely thrive from rest breaks for rewards:wink:


----------



## dbarabians

Those stallions in that video responded to very well to their handlers IMO.
WSarabians good luck with your boy. No matter where he places in the class I like him.
I would breed one of my mares to the first stallion in that video I believe it was WH justice. Correct me if I am wrong.
There is nothing wrong with breeding for a pretty horse. 
The arabian is the most beautiful horse in the world IMO. Yes we enhance that in the showring and we want the halter class to portray the breed with all its spirit. That I have no problem with. IMO the stock horse breeds have a pretty boring halter class. The arabians on the other hand are never boring or predictable.. Shalom


----------



## faye

In the UK in the 60's, 70's and early 80's the arab was the most versitile and popular horse about.

Then the breeders started breeding for overly dish headed horses with too little space for thier brains and so scatty they are often refered to as high as kites.

My arab was not perticularly dished in the head, however he was nice old polish stock, would do a bit of everything and would go all day. He was ace and brilliant with novices and small children. He jumped, he hunted, he showed, dressaged (that was difficult as he learnt the tests), he XC'd, he went sidesaddle, he herded sheep, we rode him bareback down the beach, you name it he had a go
He did well enough in the ridden classes but never won anything decent inhand as he just wouldnt do the whole bug eyed, scared witless look.

I have witnessed arabs struggling to breathe. 
I've seen arabs that are uselss for anything other than showing inhand.
I've seen arabs that dont have 2 brain cells to rub together and that just isnt right! Arabs were valued and so versitile because of thier brains!

I personaly would never have anouther unless it was old polish stock or old crabbet bred.

Mum worked in saudi, she worked with bedouins and saw thier horses and you would never put them side by side with a modern arab and say they were the same breed


----------



## TheBayArab

faye said:


> In the UK in the 60's, 70's and early 80's the arab was the most versitile and popular horse about.
> 
> Then the breeders started breeding for overly dish headed horses with too little space for thier brains and so scatty they are often refered to as high as kites.
> 
> My arab was not perticularly dished in the head, however he was nice old polish stock, would do a bit of everything and would go all day. He was ace and brilliant with novices and small children. He jumped, he hunted, he showed, dressaged (that was difficult as he learnt the tests), he XC'd, he went sidesaddle, he herded sheep, we rode him bareback down the beach, you name it he had a go
> He did well enough in the ridden classes but never won anything decent inhand as he just wouldnt do the whole bug eyed, scared witless look.
> 
> I have witnessed arabs struggling to breathe.
> I've seen arabs that are uselss for anything other than showing inhand.
> I've seen arabs that dont have 2 brain cells to rub together and that just isnt right! Arabs were valued and so versitile because of thier brains!
> 
> I personaly would never have anouther unless it was old polish stock or old crabbet bred.
> 
> Mum worked in saudi, she worked with bedouins and saw thier horses and you would never put them side by side with a modern arab and say they were the same breed


I do agree that we should have different breeding goals, but for at least most of the horses bred today, even for halter, I have seen some horses with brilliant intelligent heads on their shoulders. Heck, I have seen some that can be ridden bareback by children. Stallions even. Of course I have not witnessed the older style of arabian that you speak of, but I certainly have met beautiful halter arabs that really made an impression on me. Certainly the character and personality has not been bred out of them, and something I love more than anything about their appearance is their large eyes.


----------



## deserthorsewoman

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcxmE9i5sB8&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Modern Arabian breeding at it's finest. Super pretty but still very functional.


----------



## dbarabians

Faye I used to believe the same thing and wanted only Polish or crabbet arabs.
There are plenty of functional, athletic, and sane egyptian arabians.
I see your point but the mares I saw while purchasing breeding stock for the last 2 years for the most part could give any polish or crabbet bred a good run for their money.
Lets not forget the spainish arab. They combine pretty and athletic very well. 
Shalom


----------



## TheBayArab

I agree, DB. Spanish is definitely one of my favorite bloodlines. I believe DA Valentino was spanish? Correct me if I am wrong. Which brings me to ask, what exactly defines a horse's type? Isn't it just the location it is bred at? I know a horse is considered polish if its ancestors are polish, even if it was not bred in Poland, but then what made its ancestors polish? Would it just be the original descendants breeding, or the actual features of the horse?

Also, here is one of my favorite arabian stallions, *Karadjordje+++. He was imported from England but has pure polish blood. What I like about him is not only his strong frame and arched neck plus those big eyes, but also he was halter and performance bred. He exceeds in both, which if you ask me is what the breed is meant for; loyalty, intelligence, durability, versatility, and beauty. Any horse that sports all of these is a true quality arabian in my book.


----------



## deserthorsewoman

No no no, DA Valentino is a nice mix of polish-crabbet-egyptian-russian and two lines Spanish through Estopa and AN Malik


----------



## TheBayArab

deserthorsewoman said:


> No no no, DA Valentino is a nice mix of polish-crabbet-egyptian-russian and two lines Spanish through Estopa and AN Malik


Ahhh okay, I must be thinking of someone else


----------



## Critter sitter

the lady that came to look at my Appendix mare yesterday breeds egyptian arabians and trakehners she has some beautiful horses and $$$ ones.. I am still trying to figure out what she wants with my Grade bay appendix Mare... ugggg not sure I will approve sale


----------



## dbarabians

Karajdorge is the grandsire of my Bask Flame daughter.
He was indeed a great horse. Sadly neither He or Bask would win in todays halter classes.
My mare Krystal Flame D is well bred and my favorite mare. Pure polish and homozygous black.
Her last foal I was given in the deal that purchased her. A black QH/Arab grandson of Smart Chic Olena. They did not want him to go to auction. I just happened to be there at the right time. Shalom


----------



## BlueSpark

I owned a crabbet/polish gelding. Stunning to look at, big and stocky. he unfortunately was a big spooky diva, who would throw temper tantrums at random.

My egyptian mare is a handful in some ways, but the most reliable, honest horse I've ever owned. I think each horse needs to be judged individually.


----------



## Rumonek

deserthorsewoman said:


> this is Gharib(Anterior x Suhair), straight Egyptian stallion, pic shows him still in Egypt. He was brought to Germany to Marbach State Stud. Before breeding he had to pass a 100 day test. Dressage, jumping, cross country, willingness, character. Against warmbloods. That was the rule in Germany and most of Europe then. He sired several sons who in turn sired sons who beat the warmblood stallions at the licensing.
> He was also licensed for Trakehner which is, to this day, one of the hardest things to achieve for a breeding stallion.
> I had a granddaughter, and my relaxed stallion was her son. Here El Norus and Hadidi carry his blood.
> So the ability is there, it's just not utilized anymore.


Thank you for posting this 
Not all of us breed for "deformed" looking horses. I certainly do not! Speaking of El Norus, here he is- a Gharib grandson. There is nothing frail about this stallion:









Here is my first purebred colt that I produced- sired by El Norus, at a year old:









And my El Norus great-grand daughter, a weanling:

















And here is my 16 hand+ PUREBRED Arabian mare that is currently in foal to El Norus:


----------



## Rumonek

*EDIT*
The bay filly above is an El Norus GRAND Daughter, not great grand daughter 

Here is her lovely dam with her. You CAN have a beautiful face with substance.


----------



## WSArabians

Muppetgirl said:


> Hmmm well she will likely thrive from rest breaks for rewards:wink:


I'm just hoping she doesn't fall over asleep and break my other hip! :shock:
LOL
I might just do all the ground work and give her to Tiff to ride so she doesn't hate me for training her. :lol:


----------



## WSArabians

faye said:


> I have witnessed arabs struggling to breathe.
> I've seen arabs that are uselss for anything other than showing inhand.
> I've seen arabs that dont have 2 brain cells to rub together and that just isnt right! Arabs were valued and so versitile because of thier brains!


First one I'd need to see evidence it was caused by their faces. What happened in the situation where you witnessed that it was struggling to breathe? 
I've seen lots of Quarter Horses and Paints that were useless for anything but showing in hand.
I've rode and trained Quarter Horses and Paints for years before getting into Arabians and I've met some that didn't even have half a brain cell to rub together. 

LOT'S (and I'd say 99.9%) of issues are caused by people, not breeding. 

I would say that Arabs may be losing a bit of their versatility as we get more event/bloodline specific - but it's not different then certain QH lines being used for Reining and the longer, stretchier type used for Western Pleasure or SHUS.


----------



## Muppetgirl

WSArabians said:


> I'm just hoping she doesn't fall over asleep and break my other hip! :shock:
> LOL
> I might just do all the ground work and give her to Tiff to ride so she doesn't hate me for training her. :lol:


Ya! Can't go wrong with good ground work.....your little girl takes it to a whole new level


----------



## WSArabians

TheBayArab said:


> Which brings me to ask, what exactly defines a horse's type? Isn't it just the location it is bred at? I know a horse is considered polish if its ancestors are polish, even if it was not bred in Poland, but then what made its ancestors polish? Would it just be the original descendants breeding, or the actual features of the horse?


Sort of. 
Pure Polish is a North American term created by our breeders to add "flair" to their title - just a marketing term. Same with Straight Russian, Straight Egyptian, etc. 
In Poland, any horse is always Polish, even if sired by their crossed out stallions, like Gazal Al Shaqab, for instance. Not something I would have done because, IMO, you don't fix what isn't broken and they had (have, I suppose) one of the finest programs in the world. 

Getting the qualities you want are just careful breeding - I've seen some great older Egyptian Arabians that were solid, solid horses. 
Measoud - one of my favourite Arabian stallions. He was bred in Egypt and imported by Crabbet Stud. He is listed as 100% Egyptian (Also 100% CMK, 100% Crabbet)









He was an incredible foundation sire, but because of his heritage percentage - you get CMK and Crabbet blood in SE's - so while it's largely the horse's ancestral heritage and gives it it's substance, it's not necessarily bloodline specific - back in the days. Nowadays I find a lot of SE's that more exotic then substantial - one reason I think the Poles introduced that blood as market demands but...

This is TDR White Stone - a SE stallion that was exported a few years ago. He was a fine example of the SE athletes. 










Conformation - so while he's athletic, he's not...SOLID.










Not like TA Mozart:



















A lot of it depends on what you want to breed for, and who you're breeding for. Selecting the right mare for the right stallion is absolutely the key, pedigree aside. 
Some of my favourite horses are a mix of CMK, Crabbet, Polish, Russian or Egyptian breeding - I don't really care whether a horse is "Pure Polish" or "Straight Egyptian" so long as they are conformationally and mentally sane and capable.


----------



## jaydee

TheBayArab said:


> I agree, DB. Spanish is definitely one of my favorite bloodlines. I believe DA Valentino was spanish? Correct me if I am wrong. Which brings me to ask, what exactly defines a horse's type? Isn't it just the location it is bred at? I know a horse is considered polish if its ancestors are polish, even if it was not bred in Poland, but then what made its ancestors polish? Would it just be the original descendants breeding, or the actual features of the horse?
> 
> Also, here is one of my favorite arabian stallions, *Karadjordje+++. He was imported from England but has pure polish blood. What I like about him is not only his strong frame and arched neck plus those big eyes, but also he was halter and performance bred. He exceeds in both, which if you ask me is what the breed is meant for; loyalty, intelligence, durability, versatility, and beauty. Any horse that sports all of these is a true quality arabian in my book.


 Fabulous horse
The trend for breeding a useful arabian in the UK began in the early 80's when they were expected to perform in the showring in the same way as any other riding horse. they had to be sane, on the bit, able to 'collect' and not stargaze all the time and not look so narrow they'd split you in two or their legs would break
Two pics of the arab I had in the 80's - Al Farouk, a grandson of Grojec who was exported to the US. Please excuse the rather odd face I'm pulling - I hate being photographed!!!


----------



## deserthorsewoman

Rumonek said:


> *EDIT*
> The bay filly above is an El Norus GRAND Daughter, not great grand daughter
> 
> Here is her lovely dam with her. You CAN have a beautiful face with substance.


AND movement


----------



## texasgal

Just because I can't let dba see an Arab thread with this:

Matt Dillon




























Enjoy, dba!


----------



## deserthorsewoman

I think the breed's biggest problem is the extreme. Extreme type, extreme saddleseat movement, extreme flat croup, extreme halter stance. 
If people would just breed conformationally correct, pretty, sane horses one can ride, do anything, just not to extreme( here we go again;-)) levels, we'd still have the real Arabian. 
Why does an Arabian have to move and look like a Saddlebred, or slide and spin like a a Quarter Horse or be pretty like a porcelain statue? 
Why can't it be enough what they naturally offer?


----------



## texasgal

I think that is ANY breeds issue .. man's inability to separate the need-to-win with the destructive power of extremes.

Big Lick TWHs
Foot to body mass ratio on QH halter
Peanut Roller QHs
Dwarfism and extreme size in mini's
Even fast growing racehorses .. that are bred for peak performance at TWO ... and so many break down.

disclaimer: I'm using QH but really applies to all stock breeds.


----------



## WSArabians

texasgal said:


> Just because I can't let dba see an Arab thread with this:
> 
> Matt Dillon
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Enjoy, dba!


AHHH.....One day I will let this hunk's sperm violate my one of my mares.... 
LOVE!


----------



## deserthorsewoman

texasgal said:


> I think that is ANY breeds issue .. man's inability to separate the need-to-win with the destructive power of extremes.
> 
> Big Lick TWHs
> Foot to body mass ratio on QH halter
> Peanut Roller QHs
> Dwarfism and extreme size in mini's
> Even fast growing racehorses .. that are bred for peak performance at TWO ... and so many break down.
> 
> disclaimer: I'm using QH but really applies to all stock breeds.


Yup, and I dare say it's an American thing......:-(


----------



## texasgal

WSArabians said:


> AHHH.....One day I will let this hunk's sperm violate my one of my mares....
> LOVE!


Yep ... he's sexy!


----------



## faye

deserthorsewoman said:


> I think the breed's biggest problem is the extreme. Extreme type, extreme saddleseat movement, extreme flat croup, extreme halter stance.
> If people would just breed conformationally correct, pretty, sane horses one can ride, do anything, just not to extreme( here we go again;-)) levels, we'd still have the real Arabian.
> Why does an Arabian have to move and look like a Saddlebred, or slide and spin like a a Quarter Horse or be pretty like a porcelain statue?
> Why can't it be enough what they naturally offer?


Very well said!! My arab was a nice solid guy (not as solid as some shown here) and I'd take the chestnut that texasgirl posted home anyday.

This is my lad

















and him chilling


----------



## deserthorsewoman

Yeah, and no doubt he's a purebred, even with all his hair and no oil;-)


----------



## Copperhead

deserthorsewoman said:


> I think the breed's biggest problem is the extreme. Extreme type, extreme saddleseat movement, extreme flat croup, extreme halter stance.
> If people would just breed conformationally correct, pretty, sane horses one can ride, do anything, just not to extreme( here we go again;-)) levels, we'd still have the real Arabian.
> Why does an Arabian have to move and look like a Saddlebred, or slide and spin like a a Quarter Horse or be pretty like a porcelain statue?
> Why can't it be enough what they naturally offer?


Because we're human and if its not extreme, it isn't good enough!


----------



## Rumonek

deserthorsewoman said:


> AND movement


Oh yeah! Lots not forget that either! 
This filly is Egyptian-Sired and her dam is a good ol' blend of Egyptian, CMK, and a line of Spanish. 
It's sad that the SEs have gained a reputation of being less athletic. That old blood sure has plenty of athleticism. 









To be used here they must also be very people friendly.









This filly isn't purebred, but still... she's 3/4 and believe me, this movement isn't coming from the other 1/4! She's a Khemo grand-daughter with a Blunt dam line and CMK sire line.


----------



## Rumonek

Some more pics for fun 

An SE mare I once owned









Here's my black ES, *Simeon Shai g.daughter at 2 years old. In foal currently to El Norus


----------



## deserthorsewoman

Drooling over the filly......what is the other 1/4, ASB?

My very first Arabian was a true 15.2, built like a tank, 8 1/2" cannonbone and 95% Egyptian. In the 23 years I had him he spooked once and was born broke


----------



## dbarabians

Those are all very nice horses.
I do not see the demise of the arabian breed anytime soon. The trend for the extreme head will either fade away or contribute to arabs that are very pretty AND functional.
There is plenty of room in the breed for specialization.
Those arabs that might have breathing issues will not contribute to the breeds future if they cannot thrive in normal conditions. 
There is more difference in a single breed than between those of different breeds in the same discipline. riening and cutting horse arabians have a build like the QHs that compete in those classes.
Matt Dillon might have been accepted into the APHA or AQHA when horses were inspected and then registered on type not bloodlines. He looks like Doc Bar IMO with a refined head. Shalom


----------



## damnedEvans

I've seen many Arabians but never one of Egyptian lines. Here in my country we have a big stud farm for Arabian horses of different lines (Coheilan, El-Iman, Gazal, El-Sbaa, Siglavy Bagdady, Ibn Galal etc). Our horses tend to be more stockier with a refined head but not very prominent dished face. Some of them don't even have dished face. 


































































We also have a breed called Shagya Arabian that is more stockier and taller than an Arab. It was created to preserve the Arab's personality while increasing the size. Some heavier people would like to ride Arabian but couldn't because of their size so the Shagya Arabian was created. It's a registered breed with Arabian, Thoroughbred and Lipizzaner. 

















Sorry for so many photos, I was carried away :lol:.


----------



## Rumonek

deserthorsewoman said:


> Drooling over the filly......what is the other 1/4, ASB?
> 
> My very first Arabian was a true 15.2, built like a tank, 8 1/2" cannonbone and 95% Egyptian. In the 23 years I had him he spooked once and was born broke


Thank you 
Yep, ASB more of the sport-horse type. Her dam is a multiple champion in EP and Halter. Her sire is Khartoon Khlassic. 

The black mare above is 16-16.1 hands and as you can see, not built small  She's from racing lines on the bottom (Her great grand-dam was a Russian import, her grandsire a 7X stakes winner). Really excited to see what she gives me with El Norus as the bay colt I posted was by him and out of a mare that was also a grand-daughter of Nykoli. 

Heres Tiki's dam:









Here's one of Tiki's older brothers ponying the El Norus Colt:

















El Norus colt at 2 with his owner









Sorry, not trying to take over the thread!


----------



## deserthorsewoman

dbarabians said:


> Those are all very nice horses.
> I do not see the demise of the arabian breed anytime soon. The trend for the extreme head will either fade away or contribute to arabs that are very pretty AND functional.
> There is plenty of room in the breed for specialization.
> Those arabs that might have breathing issues will not contribute to the breeds future if they cannot thrive in normal conditions.
> There is more difference in a single breed than between those of different breeds in the same discipline. riening and cutting horse arabians have a build like the QHs that compete in those classes.
> Matt Dillon might have been accepted into the APHA or AQHA when horses were inspected and then registered on type not bloodlines. He looks like Doc Bar IMO with a refined head. Shalom


There are people who knew Doc Bar who swore he was half Arabian....and to be honest, I have NO doubt about that.;-)


----------



## deserthorsewoman

damnedEvans said:


> I've seen many Arabians but never one of Egyptian lines. Here in my country we have a big stud farm for Arabian horses of different lines (Coheilan, El-Iman, Gazal, El-Sbaa, Siglavy Bagdady, Ibn Galal etc). Our horses tend to be more stockier with a refined head but not very prominent dished face. Some of them don't even have dished face.
> 
> View attachment 130384
> 
> 
> View attachment 130385
> 
> 
> View attachment 130386
> 
> 
> View attachment 130387
> 
> 
> View attachment 130388
> 
> 
> View attachment 130389
> 
> 
> View attachment 130390
> 
> 
> View attachment 130391
> 
> 
> 
> We also have a breed called Shagya Arabian that is more stockier and taller than an Arab. It was created to preserve the Arab's personality while increasing the size. Some heavier people would like to ride Arabian but couldn't because of their size so the Shagya Arabian was created. It's a registered breed with Arabian, Thoroughbred and Lipizzaner.
> 
> View attachment 130392
> 
> 
> View attachment 130393
> 
> 
> Sorry for so many photos, I was carried away :lol:.


So you have mainly old old Babolna lines in your country. I remember vaguely yeas ago was an argument with WAHO about some of your lines. I have no clue what was decided, tho.
So there is a genepool to fall back on if all goes crazy.

The Shagya actually was bred in Hungary for carriage and the military, pretty as the purebred but more size. There aren't very many outside of Europe, which could be a blessing for the breed;-)


----------



## Rumonek

damnedEvans said:


> I've seen many Arabians but never one of Egyptian lines. Here in my country we have a big stud farm for Arabian horses of different lines (Coheilan, El-Iman, Gazal, El-Sbaa, Siglavy Bagdady, Ibn Galal etc). Our horses tend to be more stockier with a refined head but not very prominent dished face. Some of them don't even have dished face.
> 
> View attachment 130384
> 
> 
> View attachment 130385
> 
> 
> View attachment 130386
> 
> 
> View attachment 130387
> 
> 
> View attachment 130388
> 
> 
> View attachment 130389
> 
> 
> View attachment 130390
> 
> 
> View attachment 130391
> 
> 
> 
> We also have a breed called Shagya Arabian that is more stockier and taller than an Arab. It was created to preserve the Arab's personality while increasing the size. Some heavier people would like to ride Arabian but couldn't because of their size so the Shagya Arabian was created. It's a registered breed with Arabian, Thoroughbred and Lipizzaner.
> 
> View attachment 130392
> 
> 
> View attachment 130393
> 
> 
> Sorry for so many photos, I was carried away :lol:.


You've been around Egyptian horses and just didn't realize it! 
IBN Galal was one of the first foundation horses for the Simeon studs straight egyptian program and is considered an SE as he was an egyptian import. 

Siglavy was a desert-bred, and there was also Kuhaylan Haifi who was used at Janow who was the sire of Ofir- *Bask's grandsire. 

Looks like a lot of your blood is also french through the Al Khamsa stallion El Sbaa. 

Interesting


----------



## dbarabians

Deserthorsewoman, I have heard that Doc Bars dam was indeed an arab or part blood. 
Take a look at all those small dished heads on some of the reiners and cutters, flowing manes tails, short backs, and small stature most have. Matt Dillon would fit right in. Shalom


----------



## deserthorsewoman

Rumonek said:


> Thank you
> Yep, ASB more of the sport-horse type. Her dam is a multiple champion in EP and Halter. Her sire is Khartoon Khlassic.
> 
> The black mare above is 16-16.1 hands and as you can see, not built small  She's from racing lines on the bottom (Her great grand-dam was a Russian import, her grandsire a 7X stakes winner). Really excited to see what she gives me with El Norus as the bay colt I posted was by him and out of a mare that was also a grand-daughter of Nykoli.
> 
> Heres Tiki's dam:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's one of Tiki's older brothers ponying the El Norus Colt:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> El Norus colt at 2 with his owner
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, not trying to take over the thread!


If you care to look at this pedigree:
Pekhasha Arabian
my last born.......;-)


----------



## deserthorsewoman

dbarabians said:


> Deserthorsewoman, I have heard that Doc Bars dam was indeed an arab or part blood.
> Take a look at all those small dished heads on some of the reiners and cutters, flowing manes tails, short backs, and small stature most have. Matt Dillon would fit right in. Shalom


Definitely! I remember some years ago in Germany I was inquiring about QH stallions for breeding Quarabs, a breed very new to Germany at that time. I talked to the owner of one of the most successful reining horse breeding farms. She went on and on how worthless Arabs are and maybe breeding to one of her horses would greatly improve the Arabian. I had it with her and said, "Ma'am, I hope you realize that, if it wasn't for the worthless Arabs, you would do stops and spins on a drafthorse".....


----------



## damnedEvans

Rumonek said:


> You've been around Egyptian horses and just didn't realize it!
> IBN Galal was one of the first foundation horses for the Simeon studs straight egyptian program and is considered an SE as he was an egyptian import.
> 
> Siglavy was a desert-bred, and there was also Kuhaylan Haifi who was used at Janow who was the sire of Ofir- *Bask's grandsire.
> 
> Looks like a lot of your blood is also french through the Al Khamsa stallion El Sbaa.
> 
> Interesting


 I knew that some of those lines were Egyptian but I didn't knew which. They don't look like Egyptian Arabians that I'm used to see on the internet, they are not that refined and fine boned.
This is the only one that I think is more refined







Anyway here in my country they are not interested in obtaining finer boned Arabians with a more dished face so they will keep breeding like that. I like to see the refined and dished face of an Egyptian but I think that they must be stockier than what is advertised now as being the "perfect Arabian". I want to have an Arabian to ride and not think that I may be to heavy for him at 125 lbs :lol:. They should look capable of carrying some weight while maintaining their specific look and conformation.


----------



## dbarabians

Arabians can carry weight and at a 125 you are ok. I weigh 145 and my horses are mostly 14.2. they carry me with no problems and I have ridden them 5-15 miles at a time usually. Shalom


----------



## faye

my lad was 14.3hh and regularly carried 182lbs without problems. If they have good solid flat bone then they can take the weight.


----------



## Remali

Sorry, I am rather late to this thread... I've been going to Arabian shows since 1970. The horses, and how they are presented definitely have changed a lot. If anyone says that major abuse does not exist in the Arabian show ring, they have either 1.) not attended many Arabian shows, or 2.) have their head in the sand. The show ring abuse (especially the halter horses) got to the point where I stopped going to shows for awhile.

I do miss the Arabian conformation of yesteryear, they bred a horse with better bone and more substance. Also, many National Champions back then were shown in both halter and performance, you don't see that as often these days. Raffon and *Aramus come to mind. While there are many breeders today who do still strive for good legs, etc., and not just a pretty face, and versatile horses that can go on and win in the performance arena, I am not a fan of some of the Saddlebred-looking Arabians. I'm not saying I don't like Saddlebreds, I'm just saying that Arabians should not look like them. Thankfully, there are many breeders out there that feel the same way I do. The Arabian Sport Horse classes are a major step in the right direction IMO.


----------



## HGEsquire

I am glad to contribute to the relaxed, non extreme dished face, good feet, legs and temperment Arabians that Robert & I together breed for the Sport Horse disciplines. From being involved for over 35+ years now I have seen a lot of changes with our breed and those that own them.

For Robert & I, we enjoy breeding a solid horse that is Amatuer Friendly yet Professional Quality and promote our stallion, HG Esquire+ as 'Rated 'E' for Everyone'!

Now for a visual ~


















































Back later with maybe a few more pics 

Denise Gainey


----------



## HGEsquire

Used as a prop for my daughters graduation pictures 


























Denise Gainey


----------



## Remali

Love your photos HGEsquire! Your stallion is my kind of horse. Are you by any chance related to the Gaineys that had Ferzon? The first Arabian stallion I ever met in person was Gazon, a Ferzon son... after that, I was totally hooked.


----------



## Chevaux

HGEsquire - now that's an Arabian.


----------



## HGEsquire

Although I was a breeder of Arabian horses long before I met my husband, Gainey is my married name 

Denise Gainey
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## HGEsquire

Thank you both for your compliments as well. Still getting use to this iPhone and forums lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## grayshell38

So, I just got a hold of some pics of my gelding's sire as a young buck. He is now 30 or so, and not in the best shape, but he's got a great temperament. Such a gentleman. I can totally tell where Mana gets his curiosity from! LOL. ETA- This guy is a shorty!! He's maybe 14.1H. Tiny guy with a ton of spirit. 

Presenting Phazon Fireblaze as a 3-5 year old.


----------



## 4horses

I think part of the problem is that breeders are over breeding for high spirited animals, and not breeding for a sound mind. 

The breeding farm where I used to work had 1 horse out of 30 that I was willing to ride. The rest were crazy nuts that would spook at their own shadow. All work in the barn had to stop if they were showing a horse to a buyer. Any noise and they were concerned the horses would spook and act crazy. I developed a deep dislike for arabians after that. I do not want to get trampled or otherwise hurt, and a horse that is that spooky is not a horse you can trust not to hurt someone. 

I've met plenty of nice arabians, but whatever show bloodlines they were using was turning their horses into fruit cakes. (These horses weren't stalled either). Unfortunately they did have success at showing. I guess as long as the horse can circle the arena a few times with nice movement, that's all they want. I just doubt the horses would be useful for anything else as they were way too spooky for trail or endurance. Unless the rider enjoys walking home after being dumped! 

I think horses like that are a detriment to the arabian breed. Last I heard the Arabian horse was supposed to be known for it's "courage" and not scared of the same bushes it has passed every single day of its life.


----------



## TheBayArab

4horses said:


> I think part of the problem is that breeders are over breeding for high spirited animals, and not breeding for a sound mind.
> 
> The breeding farm where I used to work had 1 horse out of 30 that I was willing to ride. The rest were crazy nuts that would spook at their own shadow. All work in the barn had to stop if they were showing a horse to a buyer. Any noise and they were concerned the horses would spook and act crazy. I developed a deep dislike for arabians after that. I do not want to get trampled or otherwise hurt, and a horse that is that spooky is not a horse you can trust not to hurt someone.
> 
> I've met plenty of nice arabians, but whatever show bloodlines they were using was turning their horses into fruit cakes. (These horses weren't stalled either). Unfortunately they did have success at showing. I guess as long as the horse can circle the arena a few times with nice movement, that's all they want. I just doubt the horses would be useful for anything else as they were way too spooky for trail or endurance. Unless the rider enjoys walking home after being dumped!
> 
> I think horses like that are a detriment to the arabian breed. Last I heard the Arabian horse was supposed to be known for it's "courage" and not scared of the same bushes it has passed every single day of its life.


Most arabs definitely aren't like that. Some barns just don't have great trainers who don't know that horses need to be exposed, not protected. I went to one arab barn for years with my arab and she was trained there because I didn't know any better either. She was a total nut. We sheltered her from anything that may cause her to spook, like what you said about having everyone stop work. I moved her later on and she was trained properly, now kids can climb all over her, plus she has a baby now that grew up with me knowing that he needs dogs barking, plastic bags flying, and things popping. He is close to bombproof. It is definitely not in their blood, but any horse can be turned into a nervous wreck if they are sheltered all the time. 

As for build, I like a medium. I like visibly a chisled head, but not extreme, nice big jawbones, large eyes, big bones, but not much extra bulk. Movement is most important if you ask me. Hero doesn't much look like an arab at first (although he looks more and more like and arab the fatter he gets) but once he gets moving, BAM. He is STALLION quality in movement. He is 1/4 hackney, though, 3/4 arab. Still I think he mostly got arab movement except for the extra picking up of his hooves which he easily could have gotten from his purebred father alone. The best thing is what he did inherit from his hackney size was that little pause before the landing with each step which notoriously makes them "float". That mixed with his arab movement is amazing.


----------



## HGEsquire

A few more relaxed pics of one of Esquire+'s daughters in Mississippi 










































Hope you guys enjoy 

Denise Gainey


----------



## BBBCrone

^^ Oh my gosh ... how adorable is that!!!

Love it


----------



## HGEsquire

Thanks BBBCrone! I would love to take the credit for this special filly yet I must give it up to her breeders/owners. Robert & I look forward to not only meeting Lexi but her people as well.

Denise Gainey
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GamingGrrl

I leased a spooky crazy Arab for a month. And then I packed my bags because I was tired of getting run over every 5 feet. It took me 20 minutes to get him from barn to round pen because you would have to stop him and back him up so he would respect your space. He was a nutcase and no one was ever firm with him because he's "oh so special and high spirited and majestic and ARABIAN!". However, I learned to ride on some Arabians who were amazing. I swear that one was my heart horse. He was beautiful and full of courage and was a very noble fellow. I'm tearing up right now thinking about him :')
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Arab Mama

Over breeding/inbreeding creates unstable horses no matter what breed you are talking about. I don't understand what is attractive in those severely dished faces and those pencil thin legs. I also find the current trend toward taller Arabs unfortunate. The thing that has always drawn me to Arabians has been their delicate look with their hearty strength, endurance and versatility. I love the scene in "The 13th Warrior" where the Norse are making fun of Antonio Banderas' Arabian and then he jumps the horse over them and their horses. Now THAT is an Arabian.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soenjer55

I watched a Scottsdale promo video that I ran across the other day, and I couldn't help but notice the blaring difference between the halter horses and the horses under saddle... The saddle seat ones looked nothing like arabians either, but I'm not sure that they weren't half arabians.
But, anyway, just putting those two types together made the halter arabian differences so glaringly obvious... They had tiny, narrow chests and bums, skinny, weak legs, long skinny necks, and of course, the faces. Meanwhile, the under saddle ones made me admire the breed all over again- strong legs, athletic movement, typey heads without over-exaggeration, big, nice, proportioned bodies... you could see a slight difference between the ones in different disciplines, but nothing nearly as excessive as what I saw in the halter arabians. 
I'll try to find the video, even if it's just for pure enjoyment- it was, in all, a VERY well made one, I thought it was really cool!


----------



## deserthorsewoman

There is one on here, Scottsdale promo video....I'll try to find it


----------



## deserthorsewoman

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-videos/scottsdale-arabian-horse-show-promo-video-152338/


----------



## WSArabians

grayshell38 said:


> So, I just got a hold of some pics of my gelding's sire as a young buck. He is now 30 or so, and not in the best shape, but he's got a great temperament. Such a gentleman. I can totally tell where Mana gets his curiosity from! LOL. ETA- This guy is a shorty!! He's maybe 14.1H. Tiny guy with a ton of spirit.
> 
> Presenting Phazon Fireblaze as a 3-5 year old.


He is absolutely stunning!


----------



## soenjer55

deserthorsewoman said:


> http://www.horseforum.com/horse-videos/scottsdale-arabian-horse-show-promo-video-152338/


That's it! Isn't it a wonderfully made video?


----------



## deserthorsewoman

soenjer55 said:


> That's it! Isn't it a wonderfully made video?


Sure is


----------

