# thoughts on Arabian crosses



## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Personally my favorite breed to breed to an Arabian is an Arabian.
You could probably find what you want without waiting 4 years.


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## gigem88 (May 10, 2011)

I like the Friesian/Arab crosses that I have seen! I've even seen some Andalusian/Arab crosses that were pretty nice, also.


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## Whisper22 (Jan 2, 2011)

I really don't have an opinion on what kind of horse to breed her to, but Whisper is an arab/paint and while I didn't intentionally buy her for that, she is has an awsome personality and is absolutely the most affectionate horse I have ever met. I have never come across a horse that will let you hug their face the way she would. She would also follow anything around (human, horse, dog, cate) just for a little attention. Anyway, I think it's the arab in her that gives her that extra personality. Even though her trainer thinks arabs are the most useless horse, he's not the type to care about how affectionate his horses are. I do, to a degree, and Whisper was bursting with affection. I just don't think I would have gotten that if she wasn't half arab. Unfortunately I sold her last weekend because of her size and being too green for me, but letting that horse go was one of the hardest things I've ever had to do.


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## FSHjumper (Apr 26, 2011)

natisha-Im afriad ill get a too refined horse, I prefer a little more meat under me  lol. My arab mare is thicker and I feel pretty comfortable with her but, as of now, she isnt showing an interest/great ability in jumping. She isnt terrible, but I think shell be more of a flat mare.

gigem-I have just LOVED the friesian/arabs ive met, and I completely adore my friesianx mare. shes worth her weight in gold in my opinion! I want to duplicate so many things about her, but conformationally I shouldnt  but im also wondering if a friesian/arab will take me through higher levels in eventing so im a little nervous about that pairing even though I know id just LOVE it im sure 

Whisper-The farm im at breeds half arab sport ponies, and I love all their personalities! They have just enough to keep you entertained but you still feel 100% safe around them. I love it! I was thinking this paint might be a good match simply because he has a warmblood build, so not overly thick but not overly refined. Plus hes big so it wont be a short lil foal. lol. 

As of now im competing my Friesianx mare and will be for the next couple years since she just started showing this year. However, she isnt going to be a top level horse due to some conformation faults that I think will limit her to 3' or lower. Due to that, im thinking ill breed Fairah (the arab), and keep competing on Sophie so that way I can get a hang on eventing since I just started it and get good at BN with Sophie and then after a couple years ill be able to start training the foal and *hopefully* take it up through the levels while I still do some competing on Sophie. Once the foal gets fairly competitive I may pass Sophie on to be a packer for some students. (Ill never sell her though, my kids will ride this mare!) Id like a competitve 3'6 horse though and Im not ready to be highly competitve right now since im getting settled into married life, training horses, and such, but in a couple years id like to do more than one show a month or so and ill need a horse to do it on!


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

How can you be certain the foal will be what you want? That's a big risk when you could look at something with the bone & desire that you need, something already here.
I'm not saying you shouldn't breed your mare, I'm just suggesting that a more sure way would be to purchase a horse that fits your criteria.


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## MudPaint (Aug 14, 2010)

I have a Hanoverian Arabian cross. He has good bone, feet and a butt that would make foundation QHs jealous. The Hano has calmed him down a little, he's less reactive, but he still has plenty of fire when you ask for it. As far as athleticism... =) So far we're school 3'6" with no issues and under an experienced dressage rider he is amazing to watch work. 

To be honest, I've never liked Arabs, always too small for me, and seemed whacky. But I really love the edge that Primo has, and that slightly dishy face just looks elegant. I wouldn't trade him for the world. 

You have some time before you'd breed your mare, do your homework, and find a stallion that will improve and compliment your mare. Breeding is a guessing game, you may or may not get what you want.


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

If I had something very specific I wanted to do, like upper level eventing, I would buy not breed, as breeding is an utter crapshoot. Especially when you're crossing a light horse with a heavier horse. The foal might be perfect for your discipline of choice. Or not. You won't know. Just a thought, since you mentioned you had the specific goal in mind of the potential foal taking you beyond where your current mare can go.

Do you have any pics of a Friesian-Arab cross? Just curious, because I have had people ask me at shows if my horse was one (she's not).


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## SaddleDragon (Sep 20, 2010)

I love arabs and arab crosses, but a fresian is NOT someting I would try. The ones Ive seen have been FUGLY. There was one but.....it was just 1, so not the norm. 
Breed to like breeds, not two totally diffrent types. That always ends in some sort of frankenstien horse.

Why not a warmblood ( friesians are too drafty) or even a saddlebred? Saddlebreds do very well in the sport horse diciplines and they will give you that 'big feel' you want.


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

Yeah, definitely should not breed a light horse with a heavy horse...Oh, wait....


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

I love my Arab mare, and I'm totally delighted with my little Haflinger cross baby she just gave me, and it looks like I may have struck lucky with the cross, still have fingers crossed for 2 or 3 years until I can really decide. 

I totally 100% understand wanting to breed something yourself and it does sound like you have the chance of a good result if you cross with the Tobi, depending on the quality of your mare of course, but it is a chance, not a certainty. You need to look at both horses very critically and ask yourself if you will still want the foal if it gets the worst of both parents in the mix, rather than the best of each of them. The more different the parents, the more chance of getting something kind of freaky looking.

Let see, a lot of people think that making a foal is like mixing a paint color, you want brown paint, but you only have red and green, so you put your red and green in a pot and mix it and voila brown paint. Trouble is in breeding terms your mix combine like that, you may get red and green stripes, checkers, red in top, green at the bottom, polka dots, or possibly something approaching brown.

Your mare is still young yet, go enjoy her first, let her show you what she can do, then maybe think about breeding her, you may find that being without her while she carries a baby isn't worth it.


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## Red Gate Farm (Aug 28, 2011)

In my opinion, on the average, crossing just about anything with an Arabian refines the resulting offspring. The Arabian is the one breed that seems to upgrade whatever it's bred to. 

Of course, I'm talking about a well conformed horse to a well conformed horse. The whole point of breeding is to try and improve the breed, right? I mean, no one goes out and breeds two horses hoping to get some fugly bonehead offspring. :lol:

So if you really want to breed her, take a good hard look at your mare, decide what needs to be corrected in her, and find a stallion that compliments her and will hopefully correct whatever you feel needs correcting.

A good stud owner should have offspring on the ground, or pictures of offspring from their stallion to show you, so you can see when he's bred to this type of mare, he produces this type of foal.

I've seen some stunning pinto arabian crosses! The nobility and fire of the arab with that flashy pinto colouration is so beautiful. The nice thing about crossing with a pinto is that pintos come in so many different conformation mixes, from light riding to hunter/jumper to heavy, that you can choose between them. You can increase height, bone, ability and add that pretty colour pattern.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

I like Arab crosses well enough, but not with a Friesian. That's a totally nonsensible cross from two vastly different types of horse. I like Quarabs, really.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Red Gate Farm said:


> In my opinion, on the average, crossing just about anything with an Arabian refines the resulting offspring. The Arabian is the one breed that seems to upgrade whatever it's bred to.


Is the glass half full or half empty?

The opposite point of view is that almost anything crossed with an Arabian improves the Arabian.

I raised Araloosas for many years and never took either of the above views, but rather considered the cross an improvement (for my discipline) on both breeds. Obviously I love Arab crosses, or I wouldn't have spent a lifetime raising Araloosas.

But to say "the Arabian is the one breed that seems to upgrade whatever it's bred to" is both prejudicial and absolutely incorrect. An Arab certainly doesn't upgrade a Quarterhorse, which is bred for strength and performance - crossing with an Arab would diminish strength and performance. An Arab certainly doesn't upgrade a draft, which is bred to haul or drive - crossing with an Arab would diminish pulling capacity. It is of course true that crossing with an Arabian can, and often does, result in aesthetic refinement, but the vast majority of horses and breeds are not bred for aesthetics but rather to perform a job. To say that crossing them with Arabs "upgrades" them is just plain not true...I honestly can't think of a single breed of horse that can be "upgraded" by crossing with an Arab, unless you are breeding for a specific discipline that requires the characteristics of both breeds...


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## MyPonyLikesToBuck (Sep 30, 2011)

**

Arabians and Thoroughbreds are known as hot bloods, they are hotheaded and can be quite flighty for some. A hotblood crossed with a coldblood(eg. Clydesdale) produces a warmblood. My arabian cross is an excellent allround eventer, he is very good at dressage, cross country and showjumping. Hes very intelligent and agile yet fast and is very quick on his feet, making him able to do very well in any discipline.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

I have an anglo arab and you'd think arabxtb (both hotter, refined breeds) would work, right? Conversely, some of the nicest horses I have EVER seen were draftxTB (particularly Clydesdale crosses) - but you HAVE to breed blood over bone if you're crossing light and heavy. I don't know why, but if you breed a draft stallion to a light mare you're more likely to get a dud. This was told to me by a breeder who has bred draft crosses that are competing at 1* eventing and upwards. Breeding the OP's arab mare to a friesian stallion? I wouldn't do it. Friesians are drafty, and I will re-iterate, blood over bone.

My horse Monty has a LOT of faults. Upright shoulder, long cannon, upright pasterns, would like more hindquarter... but he is pretty and has competed eventing and showjumping at a decent enough level, so of course everyone thinks he's got great conformation, until they take off the rose coloured glasses and see that he's a good competitor because he has the passion for it.

Whatever you do when you're breeding, you have that chance of getting a dud. Breed the best to the best and hope for the best is a very common breeder's motto here in western australia.

If you do breed your mare you need to consider the fact that you may end up with a foal just like her - a lovely dressage/endurance/trail/western prospect, but something that lacks interest and/or ability in jumping.

And this is coming from someone who is considering breeding their filly in the future.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

MyPonyLikesToBuck said:


> Arabians and Thoroughbreds are known as hot bloods, they are hotheaded and can be quite flighty for some.



Hot blood yes, hot head NO NO NO, 

SOME TB's and Arab's are hotheaded, as are some of any other breed on the planet, but it is not a generalization that should be made, because it's not fair.

Most hot blood horses are high energy yes, so if you confine them to a stall, and only ride occasionally then you are likely to run into trouble. They are certainly not for everyone but

I currently own 12 horses, and the only one who I will go and catch with just a bit of baler twine to lead them, the only mare who I go in and play with her foal right from birth without watching her out of the corner of my eye, the one who I will go to if it's a windy spooky day and I want to ride, is my one and only Arab.

She is all Arab, she snorts and prances and blows, but she is level headed, yup that's it, hot blooded and level headed.


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## Zora (Mar 18, 2010)

We have a 5 year old Hispano arab mare[andalusian-arab cross]
She is very intelligent and spirited, and about 14.3 hands.
Here are some pictures of Morning Glory, we bred her ourselves.

























with her mom Majic.








Majic again>








And her sire Cresswood Gitano Rey


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

This is the result of crossing anglo/arab with Hanoverian............


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

I really like many arab crosses, personally. The very best mountain horse I had in Colorado was a quarab. She was sensible, tough, smart, brave and very athletic. I don't care which side of the cross any of that came from....it was just there.
This is Leaha. Yes, she is sticking her tongue out at arab cross haters.










I saw an arab/WB cross (can't remember the specifics) and she was a gorgeous 17 hand dapple grey with great substance and a very pretty head. I guess we could say which side of the cross THOSE characteristics may have come from.....


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## laughing (Oct 1, 2011)

I personally adore National Show Horses. They are a HUGE love of mine. The horse I ride is a Quarab. I feel Arabians are perfect on their own, but if you want something "extra" is when you can mix those breeds in with them.

For example, I enjoy doing Country English Pleasure. I adore having a National Show Horse for this because the trot is just marvelous, the power is crazy, but the spirit, refinement, and class of the Arabian is still there. 

If I were in your shoes, I would try it out, AFTER researching their lineage, health testing, and taking a good look at their conformation/personalities. Then I would see the foals that he's already produced to see if they fit what you were looking for. If all that panned out, then sure, I'd give it a shot. But I would be fully aware that it could be a whole crap shoot and I may have the fugliest horse on the face of this planet with just horrible eventing skills that would be in my care.

Good luck!


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Allison Finch said:


> I really like many arab crosses, personally. The very best mountain horse I had in Colorado was a quarab. She was sensible, tough, smart, brave and very athletic. I don't care which side of the cross any of that came from....it was just there.


The Araloosas I bred, raised, and trained, were specifically bred for rugged endurance work in mountain terrain, which requires a combination of endurance and strength, and a calm, cooperative, and willing disposition. Personally I prefer crossing with Appys rather than Quarterhorses because Appys, at least real Appys, are hardier and more endurance oriented than Quarterhorses, but whether an Araloosa or a Quarab, both crosses are arguably the best at this discipline. I've done a lot of wilderness riding in beautiful but just horrible terrain over the years and have never encountered a breed or crossbreed that can cover as much really tough terrain in a day or a week. Flat or moderate trails is a different matter, of course, but if I'm headed to the Rockies for a week-long pack trip where I want to cover a lot of ground and don't want an injured horsed that forces me to walk 20 or 30 miles back to civilization, I want a good Araloosa or as an alternative a good Quarab...


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## FSHjumper (Apr 26, 2011)

no thanks on the saddlebred  I rode a SB/TB cross for many years, he was a *little* nuts lol but had good training so was very manageable. However, every saddlebred ive been around was not in any way a horse I would want to own personally. Although Friesian/SB seem to be hot right now and look nice but no thanks lol. I do really really like "thorodales" thats probably one of my favorite breeds, all the ones ive seen have the right amount of substance but also great athletic ability. My only dislike is their big block heads  My dislikes on my arab mare are her straighter shoulder and she has a slightly shorter back, but those seem to be typical in arabs, and its minimal and hasnt effected ability at all. Other than that she has good substance about her, good movement, straight correct legs, a good hip etc. Shes breeding worthy is my point, and its either I train her more and sell her or breed her and keep the foal. Its still up in the air, just getting the feelers out about it so to speak. 

What im hoping to get if I breed her to a thicker WB type of horse is a more refined, lighter on their feet, more agile, and smarter horse to excel as a show horse but still has good strong bones and substance since I dont like riding a rail . I think the arab does that to thicker built horses. Why breed a Clyde to a TB? Is it not for similar reasons?! To refine, add heart and stamina, athletic ability etc. I *personally* think that the Arab lasts longer, bone and joint wise, than the TB so if im going to breed a thicker horse for refinement im going to pick the arab. Most TB's I know start slowing down a lot sooner than most horses because their bones and joints just dont hold up long term. The closest breed to the TB, as far as the athletic ability, heart, stamina etc is the arabian (not to mention their the purest breed) and they hold up longer but add those same abilities the TB does. Breeding to an Arab to add those qualities truly seems like a no-brainer to me, its just a matter of can I (and do I want to) find a stallion to compliment my mare that could be refined and enhanced in the way id like.

oh and to whoever said friesianx are fugly, my other mare is a friesian cross lol. Shes the one I do showjumping and eventing with! Shes not big and bulky either, shes just right bone wise just is only 15.1h and doesnt have the best conformation so I dont know if she will make it to 3' and up in xc although BN isnt a problem at all for her. (P.S-I did NOT breed this mare!!!)


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

My very best endurance horses were arab/appendix QH crosses. I found that
the Arab added stamina, agility, and they could smoke my foundation bred QH's!
So I think it's a good match especially if a horse is needed. Once I had a mare
that didn't pick up the height I needed when she showed up. But she made an
excellent playday pony earning TONS of ribbons in poles and barrels.
Here are her rough winter shots, she was terrible grazing through the fence!
PS: barbed wire free now at the new farm!


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## SaddleDragon (Sep 20, 2010)

I didnt say friesian crosses were fugly, just the arab and friesian crosses.....IMO. Ive seen enough of them to know, it doesnt work more often than it does.

You seem set on it, so go for it. I hope you get the best looking cross yet.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Considering today's economy and market, I can't recommend anyone breed anything. It will be far more economical in the long run to go find the horse you think you want and buy it, already finished. 

I breed Arabians and Arabian Crosses but only use Saddlebreds, sometimes Tbreds and once in a while a really exceptional QH/Paint. I HATE Arabian/Friesian crosses, they seem to ruin the Arabian gaits and haven't seen one yet that I liked their looks. Arabians are not mini Warmblood wannabes and crossing the very responsive Arab on a Warmblood just totally leaves me cold. Then again, I don't like Warmbloods at all. 

***eta*** While I am a breeder, in this economy I have all but stopped breeding. Until and unless the economy improves I have no desire to breed a bunch of horses no one wants and will ultimately end up at a sale somewhere. 

The best cross for an Arabian mare is another Arabian.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

An option I really like for crossing to an Arabian is a Thoroughbred. Well-proven cross, that, if you have the right horses. The mare and stallion have got to compliment each other.

My Anglo Arab is amazing. He is a brilliant eventer, would be a nice show hack if not for his scars, LOVES to jump and really excels at it. He has lovely movement and would be a nice dressage horse at the lower levels, if that was where my interest was.

He is, however, not particularly well put together. Upright shoulder, long back, long cannons, upright pasterns. Probably other faults I haven't seen. I don't blame the cross of breeds, in fact I LOVE anglo arabs and have seen some truly stunning ones with amazing conformation. I've seen just as many not-so-great anglo's... but Thoroughbreds are funny horses, you get the occasional one with fantastic conformation and the sad majority seem to be poorly put together. Arabs too, of course - it happens in every breed.

SO I guess what I'm trying to say here is that you have to be careful what stallion you choose for her, regardless of breed. She and he have to compliment each other. He mustn't have any faults that she also has and preferably neither horse will have anything significant. We will never breed out conformation "whoopsies" but if we breed the best to the best, we won't result in quite as many.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> The best cross for an Arabian mare is another Arabian.


What is best to breed an Arab to, whether another Arab or another breed, is dependent upon what type of horse the breeder and/or buyer wants. If a horse with a combination of endurance and performance is the objective, an Arab X Arab cross is not "best"...


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

"endurance and performance is the objective, an Arab X Arab cross is not "best"... "

Do tell? So Arabians are not the original endurance horse?


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> "endurance and performance is the objective, an Arab X Arab cross is not "best"... "
> 
> Do tell? So Arabians are not the original endurance horse?


The OP wanted....




FSHjumper said:


> I want a thicker, yet still agile and athletic horse that isnt too hot. (I would like to be able to have others ride it as well, not just me so calmer would be ncie!) What crosses well with Arabians?


So while endurance may be the forte of the Arab it fails in many other aspects. The OP was looking in areas that a full Arab would not be the best choice.

It is however a good addition to many other breeds to refine and give other aspects of equine performance that enhances both sides.

I would never recommend a full Arab for dressage outside of the lowest levels.


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

So many arabians are too short, thin, overbred to make the "perfect endurance X
performance" horse. Too many other breeds are too heavy, overbred, slow for
the same reason. My first mare was a QH/Arab cross and I rode her 100,000 miles exaggerating and she would jump off cliffs into rivers, climb mountains that atv's and other horses wouldn't attempt and she wasn't lame a day in her life, never needed shoes, and the only thing that could have killed her was the tornado that took her in the end. Could I have done those things on
a purebred Arabian? Maybe? A heavy QH, probably not. But she was the 
perfect mix of genetics that carried me safely, with the size, heart, strength that
many "purebreds" don't have.

I've spent a lot of time in egypt, raced some incredible arabian studs in Cairo
with the former Cheif of Police there. Climbed sand dunes that would have
been impossible with a heavier breed. But, in general they were too slight of
build for me and too delicate for the harsh conditions I ride my horses in here. 

But basically it just all depends on the horse.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> "endurance and performance is the objective, an Arab X Arab cross is not "best"... "
> 
> Do tell? So Arabians are not the original endurance horse?


As you did not grasp the point when expressed tactfully, I'll express it more directly...

Arabs are good for one thing - endurance. They are not competitive at strength and performance disciplines. That is not meant as slight to Arabs - it is merely a statement of fact. 

If you want a horse that excels at strength and performance you do not want an Arab.

If you want a horse with a good combination of strength/performance capability along with good endurance capability, an Arab cross can be a good compromise...Arab crosses can offer the best of both worlds by being good at both, but not excelling in either.

If you want an endurance horse and are not concerned with strength and performance, it's hard to beat an Arab.

Now...while your original statement that the best cross for an Arab is with another Arab is quite true if you want an endurance horse, it is not true if you want a combination of endurance with performance. 

Thus, my post...



> What is best to breed an Arab to, whether another Arab or another breed, is dependent upon what type of horse the breeder and/or buyer wants. If a horse with a combination of endurance and performance is the objective, an Arab X Arab cross is not "best"...


...which is not inflammatory or controversial. It is merely a statement of fact.

I would think, as a breeder of Arab crosses - as was I for 20 years - you would know this. If not, then I would ask why you are/were breeding half Arabs?


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## SaddleDragon (Sep 20, 2010)

Faceman said:


> As you did not grasp the point when expressed tactfully, I'll express it more directly...
> 
> Arabs are good for one thing - endurance. They are not competitive at strength and performance disciplines. That is not meant as slight to Arabs - it is merely a statement of fact.
> 
> If you want a horse that excels at strength and performance you do not want an Arab.


Fact? Sorry, Ive never ran endurance, but I KNOW for a FACT ( a real one) they offer much more than just that. Thats why they have such a vast variety of classes and diciplines at every show. Not too many breeds do ALL that they can. Way more versatile than you want to give credit for. Not to mention, they 'pretty' up almost anything they are crossed with. ( That is my opinion)

A purebred may not be what the OP is looking for, but that doesnt mean that they cant excell. They do.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

SaddleDragon said:


> Fact? Sorry, Ive never ran endurance, but I KNOW for a FACT ( a real one) they offer much more than just that. Thats why they have such a vast variety of classes and diciplines at every show. Not too many breeds do ALL that they can. Way more versatile than you want to give credit for. Not to mention, they 'pretty' up almost anything they are crossed with. ( That is my opinion)
> 
> A purebred may not be what the OP is looking for, but that doesnt mean that they cant excell. They do.


ANY horse can run around a racetrack. ANY horse can run/trot/walk or stroll 10 miles. ANY horse can mosey down a trail. ANY horse can jump over something, even if it is only 1 foot tall.

No one said Arabs were not versatile. But they only excel at one thing - endurance. For Heaven sakes, call a spade a spade. Arabs are not, and never have been, competitive in strength/performance events. That does not mean they can't do them, any more than it doesn't mean a Quarterhorse can't "do" endurance, although they will not excel at it.

Try reading the entire post, and try considering the context, please...no one is mean-mouthing Arabs. I don't believe I've seen a team of Arabs pulling the Budweiser beer wagon either, but it is not demeaning Arabs just by saying they can't pull as much weight as clydes can...


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Faceman said:


> As you did not grasp the point when expressed tactfully, I'll express it more directly...
> 
> Arabs are good for one thing - endurance. They are not competitive at strength and performance disciplines. That is not meant as slight to Arabs - it is merely a statement of fact.
> 
> ...


 
I'm afraid you and I will have to agree to disagree. I have a barn full of Arabs, purebreds, who are excellent performance horses and are shown open and breed show. I am currently taking 4 to Nationals in 2 weeks, have no problem thinking we will do just fine. I have a strong preferrence for the purebred unless I'm specifically looking for color or gaiting, then I prefer to cross the Arab stallion on a Saddlebred mare. I also do not cross my Arabian mares on outside stallions, they are reserved strictly for Arabians.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I have a barn full of Arabs, purebreds, who are excellent performance horses and are shown open and breed show. .


And which ones have done grand prix dressage ?


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Spyder said:


> And which ones have done grand prix dressage ?


Not a one Spyder because I have absolutely no interest in dressage unless I would take my western pleasure horse into Cowboy Dressage. There are other disciplines which require a horse to have excellent movement, I don't feel that dressage is uniquely qualified to determine my horses' worthiness. 

I grew up riding working hunters, jumpers and doing Grand Prix and Puissance competitions. I now ride much lower and much slower. 

I'm not saying Arabians are the be all and end all of all breeding, however, the OP requested opinions on what would be suitable for her Arabian mare, Arabian or not. I gave her my opinion and others have chosen to take exception to it. Honestly? I would tell her NOT to breed and to go out and BUY exactly what she wants, right down to the finish work. But she didn't ask that.


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## SaddleDragon (Sep 20, 2010)

I find a working cow horse or a saddleseat horse to be very performance oriented. And yes, they CAN and DO beat the traditional breeds in those diciplines as well as others. I have yet to see another breed that can do like them, morgans are the only other ones that can do it ALL.
Arabians SPECIALIZE in endurance, but arent limited to that, as you said thats all they are good for. And yes, it is bashing, no matter how much you claim it isnt. 

Maybe the OP might like the Morgan arab cross, that would put some thickness in there.


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I'm afraid you and I will have to agree to disagree. I have a barn full of Arabs, purebreds, who are excellent performance horses and are shown open and breed show. I am currently taking 4 to Nationals in 2 weeks, have no problem thinking we will do just fine. I have a strong preferrence for the purebred unless I'm specifically looking for color or gaiting, then I prefer to cross the Arab stallion on a Saddlebred mare. I also do not cross my Arabian mares on outside stallions, they are reserved strictly for Arabians.


VERY IMPORTANT!! That point hasn't been brought up yet!
If you cross a large breed with the smaller framed mare it
could be deadly. Not impossible, just dangerous for the smaller
framed Arabian mare to have a large(er) foal.

Thank you Dreamcatcher for bringing that up.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

When crossing like sized horses, I don't worry so much about how it's going to affect frame and gaits of the offspring. What I see when I see really disproportionate size crosses is frequently a horse who is bigger, coarser and can't move any better than a Singer sewing machine. The warmblood is so large that they will take large strides regardless of shoulder angle, but not necessarily be real free in the shoulder which is ideal for dressage type horses. If you then cross this horse on an Arabian whose shoulder isn't well laid back and very free you have a 15.2 mix with a, frequently, steamer trunk head, straight shoulder, legs with the thickness of a redwood with feathering and it slams its feet into the ground like a steam hammer and nobody can sit it. Then you add Arabian intelligence to that stout size and maybe get a horse who wants the rider off at all costs and you've got trouble. 

A friend of mine from Holland, who has ridden Dutch Warmbloods all her life and has switched to Arabians, told me, "I don't know why Americans are so in love with the Dumbbloods. They're stupid, willful and never really broken. An Arabian you can train and toss out to pasture for years and then pull them out and jump on. A Warmblood you can ride Mon thru Thurs and be perfect and then on Fri or Sat he doesn't want to be ridden and you WILL be off. Their agenda is almost never your agenda. Someday people will realize that these horses aren't really much fun to ride and the pendulum will swing back to more normal sized horses.". That pretty much coincides with my experiences with various warmblood breeds. 

If bred Arabian stallion to Friesian mare the size of the foal is not an issue. I subscribe to the 'fish bowl' theory of foal sizes, I don't think that a foal will normally out grow the room it has but when things are cramped you get all kinds of issues like windswept legs and wonky angles. Just not my favorite way to go.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I'm afraid you and I will have to agree to disagree. I have a barn full of Arabs, purebreds, who are excellent performance horses and are shown open and breed show. I am currently taking 4 to Nationals in 2 weeks, have no problem thinking we will do just fine. I have a strong preferrence for the purebred unless I'm specifically looking for color or gaiting, then I prefer to cross the Arab stallion on a Saddlebred mare. I also do not cross my Arabian mares on outside stallions, they are reserved strictly for Arabians.


Yes, we will have to agree to disagree...but that is OK. Breed shows are, of course, no measure of breed vs. breed. If Clydesdales had a cutting competition in a breed show, one of them would win, of course, but that does not mean that a Clyde could be competitive in cutting with other breeds.

If you were a student of your own breed, you would understand the muscle composition of Arabs, and understand that they have not been bred for strength and power. Their ratio of fast to slow twitch muscle fibers is much lower than a Quarterhorse, for example, a breed which has specifically been bred for strength and power. That is why, excepting anomalies, a Quarterhorse in general can outperform an Arab in strength events, just as an Arab can generally outperform a Quarterhorse in endurance events. 

Both breeds are what they are. Why you are trying to make an argument out of this is a mystery to me. Different breeds were developed for different purposes, and their anatomy and physiology reflects many generations of selective breeding. I believe the thread title is Arab crosses. Such crosses, as you should know if you have been breeding them, can - if bred properly, meld the physiological characteristics of both breeds, resulting in a horse with good endurance (although not as good as a straight Arab) and good strength (although not as good as a Quarterhorse). This results in a horse that is extremely versatile - moreso than either a Quarterhorse or Arab, but a horse that is unlikely to really excel at a particular discipline unless the discipline requires a combination of both strength and endurance. Put in simpler terms, both Quarterhorses and Arabs are specialists, whereas a Quarab would be a generalist.

I happen to like Arabs and I happen to like Arab/Appy crosses, because I place a greater value in endurance than I do pure strength. But I am both objective and a realist. I have raised a few Araloosas that were reasonably competitive at barrel racing and other strength/power disciplines, but nowhere near competitive with a top Quarterhorse. To expect that would be unrealistic...not that it is impossible because anomalies do happen - one has to look no further than a Three Bars or an Impressive or a Secretariat to see that. But anomalies aside, an Arab is best for endurance because they were bred for endurance, and a Quarterhorse is best for power because they were bred for power. Other breeds are best at what they were bred for. Why that should be interpreted as controversial or confrontational is beyond me. You can use a Chihuahua as a police dog and a St. Bernard as a lap dog - both will perform and do what you ask, but neither would be performing their job competitively and neither would be employed at their highest and best use...


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Faceman, I'm not trying to be argumentative. The OP asked for an opinion, I gave how I feel and have been getting told I'm stupid ever since. I agree that Arabians are NOT going to excell in a pulling contest, not going to outjump a TB or WB, or outrun a QB on a 1/4 mile track, with very few exceptions. I do however think they will give it their best shot and that's what I love about the Arabian, he will give it all to his human, unlike most other breeds. 

The OP asked what I thought about crosses and breeding her mare. I told her and honestly I wouldn't breed her mare in this economy. I'd go looking for exactly what I want that was trained exactly how I wanted it trained. Cross or PB makes no difference, just like color makes no diff, when the right horse is the right horse. 

I totally don't care if or how she breeds, so long as she is pleased with the outcome. Nor do I care what anyone else thinks or does, so long as I am happy with my horses and they are happy with theirs. My opinion is exactly that and worth exactly what she paid for it, as is yours.


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

Ok, just a last little comment.
Agree to disagree on the "fish bowl" theory, I know it was mentioned to bring it
up for another thread, done here now, BUT!.....
If that's true my family wouldn't have lost a 20K mare when they over bred her.
Why do people look for PROVEN low birth weight bulls when breeding maiden
cows?
I almost died giving birth to my 11lb. Miracle baby (they had to take her)
I'm tiny and 5'3, my hub is 6'3. I was 7lbs when born, he was 10lbs.
Just thoughts... I know humans are humans and horses are horses....

Much love to everyone!


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I really hate this 10 min. edit thing!

Continuing on with my original thoughts:

And re: your comment about breed shows. You're totally correct. I do show open and we do very well. However, when I'm going to National Championships I'm not looking to compete against other breeds, I want to know how my PB Arabian stacks up against other PB Arabians. PERIOD. Don't care what the WBs do, the TBs, the Apps or anyone else, it's my measuring stick for how my PB breeding program is doing. Am I consistantly producing good, athletic horses that place well against others of their kind? That's all I'm looking for at this point. 

When I have a 1/2 Arabian Pinto to show, I go to Pinto shows, Color Congress & Pinto World Champs. I want to know how my pints stack up against other pintos of the same type. At that point it's less about the Arabian/Saddlebred breeding than it is about the color and conformation and if old enough, the performance of the horse. 

I grew up riding TBs, WBs were not all the rage then for the Olympic type competions, and I rode the open shows and competed against whatever I came up against. I did that for close to 30 years and in the last 15 have devoted myself to the Arabian and Arabian crosses that I produce. I breed for myself, compete for myself and occasionally consent to sell a horse to someone else. I'm not looking to sell breedings to my stallion, he doesn't stand at public stud, he's to approved mares only. I'm not looking to sell a horse, I have exactly what I want for now and am quite content doing what I'm doing.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

FlyGap said:


> Ok, just a last little comment.
> Agree to disagree on the "fish bowl" theory, I know it was mentioned to bring it
> up for another thread, done here now, BUT!.....
> If that's true my family wouldn't have lost a 20K mare when they over bred her.
> ...


Not a problem! I know that sometimes foals (human & horse) outgrow their 'bowl' and have problems, just sayin in general the fish bowl theory applies. :lol:


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## Gidget (Jan 19, 2010)

Okay,so everyone on the board pretty much know that I have an arabian cross. She,however is 3/4 arabian and 1/4 welsh. She acts more like your typical arab but also a bit more calm. Spooky but very loving. I,honestly would prefer a purebred. I don't think people should breed and make arab crosses too be honest UNLESS they are anglo arabs and such. Mine is technically a Welara. I do not understand why people breed to have..mutts. The arabian is one of the pure breds that people like to keep as. I am not sure if Stormy was a mistake,if someone was an idiot and didn't care,or was planned...most likely not planned out but she has good confo and nice floaty movements. I plan on having her be my endurance horse when she is fully developed and broke.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Gidget said:


> I do not understand why people breed to have..mutts.


Because sometimes you want the best traits from two breeds to give you a certain 'something' 

Please remember people, all of those horses who are registered were once mutts, the QH was refined from a miss match of may many breeds, people develop new breeds the whole time.

I would much much prefer that the Haflinger remained a small drafty type horse, and if people want a Haflinger only bigger, then out cross. Constantly breeding the Haffy taller and lighter is a far worse sin in my eyes than out crossing and producing a 'mutt'


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Not a problem! I know that sometimes foals (human & horse) outgrow their 'bowl' and have problems, just sayin in general the fish bowl theory applies. :lol:


It doesn't help that the "fish bowl theory" is based on old wives' tales and myth, but that's a topic for another thread. ;-)


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Golden Horse said:


> Because sometimes you want the best traits from two breeds to give you a certain 'something'
> 
> Please remember people, all of those horses who are registered were once mutts, the QH was refined from a miss match of may many breeds, people develop new breeds the whole time.
> 
> I would much much prefer that the Haflinger remained a small drafty type horse, and if people want a Haflinger only bigger, then out cross. Constantly breeding the Haffy taller and lighter is a far worse sin in my eyes than out crossing and producing a 'mutt'


Exactly.

I tend to be a traditionalist and would much rather see new breeds developed and/or people using crossbreeding to get their specialized horses, and leave the original breeds as-is. Look at what ApHC has done to Appys - changing them to nothing more than Quarterhorses with spots. If not for a handful of dedicated breeders, Appys as a breed would be extinct. Look at Arabs and what is happening to them because so many people are breeding only for subjective aesthetics...in many quarters they have become the equivalent of designer horses - more resembling cartoon characters or seahorses than an Arab. Look at Thoroughbreds, which originally were a hardy breed with the very combination of power and endurance discussed above, but have become anatomically unsound as we have bred for only one variable - speed, at the sacrifice of bones, tendons, and hooves which are now insufficient in relation to body weight. Or at the extreme, look what we Americans have done to the Shetland - it hardly resembles the original breed.

There is a fine line between "improving a breed" and changing a breed. I have nothing against the former, but it saddens me to see the latter. I guess I am old fashioned - I want a Shetland to be a Shetland, an Appy to be an Appy, an Arab to be an Arab, or in your case a Haffie to be a Haffie...


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> A friend of mine from Holland, who has ridden Dutch Warmbloods all her life and has switched to Arabians, told me, "I don't know why Americans are so in love with the Dumbbloods. They're stupid, willful and never really broken. An Arabian you can train and toss out to pasture for years and then pull them out and jump on. A Warmblood you can ride Mon thru Thurs and be perfect and then on Fri or Sat he doesn't want to be ridden and you WILL be off. Their agenda is almost never your agenda. Someday people will realize that these horses aren't really much fun to ride and the pendulum will swing back to more normal sized horses.". That pretty much coincides with my experiences with various warmblood breeds.


Oh thats right... because every WB is as thick as a fence post, every TB is designed to run and only run, every arab is spooky and hot.... 

Well "Dreamcatcher"... you may hate Warmbloods, but I am not a fan of arabs. Yep, some WBs have that 'dumb blood' mentality. Just like some arab are raving lunatics with a mentallity of an equine Paris Hilton. 
The warmbloods that I ride, have extremely personable temperaments, with extreme trainability and are 'workaholics'. My colt's sire is reknowned for being one such 'workaholic' and will work all day if you ask him to. 
If a horse, any horse, is kept in such an artificial environment, as many are in the European training barns, in a stable 24/7, strict training and management program etc. of course you are going to create some horses that think Sunday is their day off as you have so 'beautifully' put it. 
My horses live 24/7 in the paddock in a herd environment, not wrapped in cotton wool. They are worked when I have the time to do so, around my own working 6 days/week plus running a business on the side. If I want to ride at 6am on a sunday, I will do so if it fits with my schedule, and my horses learn to deal with that. As for willfull, I had one that would nearly cry if you so much as growled at him.... wild, dominating beast he was :?

I have had ONE warmblood that had zero work ethic and would love to have gotten me off his back. But I have worked with a QH, and AppyxQH, TBs, some kind of cross breed 'mutt', and .... heaven forbid.... an arabxQH that were pretty **** keen on putting up a fight about simply going forward off the leg when asked, not when it suited them. 


I know, and I am sorry all, for the very long winded and slightly off topic post. It gets my back up to see breeds stereotyped to the extent they have been a few times on this and other threads. 
OP - to be honest, just buy a horse rather than breeding one. The chances of breeding your 'dream horse' is extraordinarily minimal. Why not just look around for a nice arabx something that carries the atributes you are looking for in a horse.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> A friend of mine from Holland, who has ridden Dutch Warmbloods all her life and has switched to Arabians, told me, "I don't know why Americans are so in love with the Dumbbloods. They're stupid, willful and never really broken. An Arabian you can train and toss out to pasture for years and then pull them out and jump on. A Warmblood you can ride Mon thru Thurs and be perfect and then on Fri or Sat he doesn't want to be ridden and you WILL be off. Their agenda is almost never your agenda. Someday people will realize that these horses aren't really much fun to ride and the pendulum will swing back to more normal sized horses.". That pretty much coincides with my experiences with various warmblood breeds.
> 
> .


Interesting view.

From my experience and I have experience in both arabs and Warmbloods I find your friends perception to be so far from the truth that I would expect she simply met a horse smarter then herself.

The only thing I have found universal about Arabs are their owners.

I go from personal experience in this one and the claims so many make would make Pinocchio's nose stretch 20 times over.

I still roll on the floor laughing about the owner that stated her pure bred stallion didn't make the first jump in the course is because the *striding was not set correct.*

She also knocked the second jump down that was set at the farthest end...opposite from the first one...Oh my dear..:rofl:

Oh my :rofl: ... I still can't get over that one. The same owner claimed that her stallion was going to win EVERYTHING because she was known in the Arab world and the half Arab I was riding and my friend's half Arab would be lucky to get even one ribbon.

Well the *one first ..2 seconds and one third are hanging up on our wall* and her single _8th place ribbon is hanging up on her wall_.

:happydance::happydance:

BTW...it was a Arab show...not an open show....so it was for registered Arab and part Arabs only.


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

I'm with Natisha, I prefer to cross the Arabian with another Arabian. Not all purebred Arabians are "too refined", many have a lot of substance. Look to the Polish-bred Arabians for more substance, I'm not not saying the other lines of Arabs don't have substance too, they do, but the Polish in general do have quite a lot of substance. I had two Polish-Crabbet Arabians, they were quite stocky and had a ton of substance, and were very athletic, and both very laid-back.

But, if you are still very interested in a cross-bred, I've always liked the Morgan/Arab cross myself, sort of the best of both worlds, and they really compliment each other very nicely.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Kayty said:


> Oh thats right... because every WB is as thick as a fence post, every TB is designed to run and only run, every arab is spooky and hot....
> 
> Well "Dreamcatcher"... you may hate Warmbloods,


Well, once again, I am reminded why I generally stay off forums. Obviously reading for comprehension is not your forte. I DIDN'T say it, my Dutch friend did. I don't disagree with her, but I don't have a lifetime of experience riding and training the Dutch Warmblood. 

So I hope you feel better and I'm done with being yelled at and insulted on this ridiculous thread. The OP asked for an opinion, I gave one and people like you have totally taken everything personally and gotten way beyond what I chose to accept from strangers. 

OP, I hope you either find your perfect stallion or your perfect horse and I also hope that you understand that I was merely expressing an opinion and not telling you what to do. You are free to take what I have expressed and think on it or dismiss it totally as you chose. Good luck.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Spyder said:


> Interesting view.
> 
> From my experience and I have experience in both arabs and Warmbloods I find your friends perception to be so far from the truth that I would expect she simply met a horse smarter then herself.
> 
> ...


 
Once again, I'm totally nonplussed that the mere expression of an opinion should be greeted with such an insulting response. My friend has been a horse trainer for many, many years and like me prefers the Arabian horse. So What? 

I don't understand your point about the fences. It's totally ludicrous and obviously that owner was making excuses for a poorly trained/prepared horse. I'm glad you got such glee from doing better than she........not that I'm sure I get the joy from what I'm sure was an embarassing event for your acquaintance. 

I ride for the sheer joy of riding, show when I want to and don't when I don't. I don't make excuses and I don't gloat, I just compete for the sake of competition.


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

Well, I lost what I just edited up there so I will continue here....

I was real surprised that a couple people on here think that Arabians are "thin" and spooky. That could not be farther from the truth. I owned Arabians for about 30 years, all were laid-back and quiet, kids could ride them, and my elderly mother who was not a horse person could easily handle them. Any horse thin and spooky sounds to me like perhaps they did not come from a knowledgeable breeder. Here are a few pics of my Arabians (the grey was my gelding, and the chestnut was my mare, both purebreds), and the last pic is a friend's Arabian gelding. And, my freind's gelding was an honest 15.3hh, not "too small". Arabians are not just 14.1hh, they come in all sizes. I'm sort of shocked at some of the odd mis-statements on here about Arabians....


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

Someone asked about Arabians doing Grand Prix dressage.... Arabians do it very nicely. A friend of mine took her purebred gelding to National Champion, Prix St. George. This person won the USDF Bronze Medal in dressage at dressage shows as well.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Remali, look at the horse in my avatar and at my stallion's pic under my signature. Neither one is exactly weedy. Both are 15.2 - 15.3 hh and my stallion is still growing. 

There's no question that a purebred Arab can do Prix St. Georges, IF the owner has the time, money and interest in it. I'd say that not all Arabians can attain that level, but then again, neither can all of any other breed.


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

Hey there Dreamcatcher.... I was admiring your horses earlier. I'm jealous! lol. I checked out SVS Il Divo's pedigree.... read's like a who's who, very nice! And I see he goes back to *Serafix too, I loved that horse. Some very nice breeding there, I like the blending of the Polish and Russian too. What I think a lot of people don't realize is, Arabians really do have a lot of substance and aren't just tiny horses. And they can really do almost anything you ask of them, they are just so athletic. I've been an Arabian fan since the 1960's. Both of my purebreds have passed on, but not a day goes by without me thinking about them. The grey was an *Exelsjor son out of a Raffdaan mare, and my chestnut mare was a *Hal Gazal granddaughter out of a Crabbet-bred mare with several crosses to *Raseyn. What is the breeding on your horse in your avatar?

The neat thing about my friend who had the Prix St. George purebred Arabian was, she bred him, trained him, and showed him herself, and she was an older lady when she did all that.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

The black in my avatar is Desperado Moon, by Sundance Kid V X Beyberryeloquence (Desperado Moon Arabian). He's a very large, substantial guy. He's my Western Pleasure gelding and I have high hopes for him at Nationals. 

Il Divo is 2 in that picture and at Nationals people kept asking if he was my Purebred 2 year old because of his size. He's now 4 and starting to really fill out and is drying out in his face. 

If you go to www.youtube.com and type in OKW Entrigue in the search bar, you will find several videos of Patience Prine Carr riding him Prix St George, Free Style and so on. He's actually OKW Entrigue+++// but more videos come up if you leave off his Legion of Supreme Merit & Legion of Excellence designations.


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## FSHjumper (Apr 26, 2011)

dreamcatcher, I am not in any way offended by your comments, you have good advice. I think that you stated your personal opinions in a nice manner and I agree with you that if others take offense thats their problem, people shouldnt be so defensive. Everyone must realize every person out there has different opinions and they shouldnt be shunned for expressing them. Just because one person doesnt like a certain breed doesnt mean they are knocking that particular breed, we all have our preferences. I personally dont like saddlebreds, Ive never had a good experience with them, but I know people who love them. its all personal prefference and it shouldnt be held against anyone.

And I agree with the comment of how you breed a cross in order to get the traits that one particular breed cant offer you on its own. I prefer bulkier horses so i have something underneath me, yet I like "hotter" more sensitive horses. That pretty much requires me to cross breed, in most cases, lol.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

I bet Spyder would NEVER say an Arab couldn't do Grand Prix dressage, since hers did do it! And nicely, too.


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

Dreamcatcher...... OMG what a small world it is, Desperado Moon was owned at one time by a friend of mine (here in Wisconsin)! It's great to see that he is doing so well!! I'm going to check out the video now....  I remember seeing some photos of OKW Entrigue, really a gorgeous horse! 

FSHjumper, I like the "bulkier" horses too (but with refinement too), some crosses are really very nice. There are pros and cons to everything.  You hit it right on the head, some people just have personal perferences, doesn't mean that they are knocking that breed, I happened to have enough bad experiences with QHs that I really would never want to own one, doesn't mean all QHs are bad though, there are some really nice ones. It would be a boring world if we all liked the very same thing....lol.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Remali said:


> I was real surprised that a couple people on here think that Arabians are "thin" and spooky. That could not be farther from the truth. I owned Arabians for about 30 years, all were laid-back and quiet, kids could ride them, and my elderly mother who was not a horse person could easily handle them. Any horse thin and spooky sounds to me like perhaps they did not come from a knowledgeable breeder. Here are a few pics of my Arabians (the grey was my gelding, and the chestnut was my mare, both purebreds), and the last pic is a friend's Arabian gelding. And, my freind's gelding was an honest 15.3hh, not "too small". Arabians are not just 14.1hh, they come in all sizes. I'm sort of shocked at some of the odd mis-statements on here about Arabians....


I've had a few Arabs and of course a lot of half-Arabs - never have thought of them as particularly "spooky" - or "hot" for that matter. I have found them energetic, which I suppose some that are used to deadheads might call "spooky". In my Araloosa breeding, I always welcomed the higher energy level added by Arabs - particularly as Appys are often almost a little too laid back.

As far as being "thin", I'm not sure I would use that term either.I think "narrow" is a better term. There isn't much question Arabs are narrower than stock and many other breeds, but that doesn't mean thin. I've had some pretty beefy Arabs that were anything but thin, although they would certainly seem narrow to someone used to sitting on a wide Quarterhorse.

I think many people have a mistaken picture of what a "solid" horse is...some people seem to be obsessed with weight - like a 15 hand horse should weigh 1200 pounds like a heavy Quarterhorse to be solid and strong. People tend to forget that because of their strong backs, dense bone, and hard hooves, Arabs can comfortably carry more weight as a percentage of their bodyweight than most other breeds...


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## FSHjumper (Apr 26, 2011)

faceman you make a good point with the height and weight thing! I personally LOVE the build of my friesian/morgan mare, shes 15.1h and weighs 1000lbs. I spend a lot of time training ponies that are 14h and weigh like 700lbs and thats just too "narrow" for me (currently most are welsh/arab crosses). Although id feel that 15h and 1200lbs is TOO big and bulky for my little midget legs  and being 17h and only weight 1100 or 1200lbs i feel is not bulky enough, and thats how a lot of TB's are. 

I think what im going to do is not breed. I was ready to do it tomorrow, but then my husband and I were talking and kids may be in our future in a year or two and I dont think I could handle a newborn baby and foal at the same time! lol. I want a well socialized foal (I spend most of my time training untouched 3yr olds!!!!) and I wouldnt be able to social and train it the way I would want to at a young age if I was pregnant, or had a newborn myself. I appreciate all of the information and opinions, and some options id never thought of (like crossing my arab with a morgan! Hadnt occured to me, but I bet it would be a nice little cross!!!) but Its not something I could do at this time. Instead all stock the foal threads and help my friends with their yearlings and itll have to suffice for now


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## Cinder (Feb 20, 2011)

Personally, I like Arabian crosses. If they're done RIGHT they can really meet a nice middle-road. 

At one of the barns I go to we have a pure Arab, and she is used for the most beginner riders. She is not "spooky" or "hot" in the least. In her younger days it's my understanding she was used for everything from trails to jumping, though she's getting up there in age now and is mostly used to teach young riders how to canter. 

On the other hand two of the spookiest and hottest lesson horses in the barn are two Quarter Horses. One is "scared of everything" (quoted from my instructor) the other is quite hot and enjoys misbehaving at the canter. So there ARE exceptions to the rule, though at the same time breeds were SPECIFICALLY breed for something and I agree that in GENERAL an Arabian horse will not excel at the same things as a Friesian or a Quarter Horse, and vise-versa.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Faceman said:


> I've had a few Arabs and of course a lot of half-Arabs - never have thought of them as particularly "spooky" - or "hot" for that matter. I have found them energetic, which I suppose some that are used to deadheads might call "spooky". In my Araloosa breeding, I always welcomed the higher energy level added by Arabs - particularly as Appys are often almost a little too laid back.
> 
> I think many people have a mistaken picture of what a "solid" horse is...some people seem to be obsessed with weight - like a 15 hand horse should weigh 1200 pounds like a heavy Quarterhorse to be solid and strong. People tend to forget that because of their strong backs, dense bone, and hard hooves, Arabs can comfortably carry more weight as a percentage of their bodyweight than most other breeds...


LOL, Arabian energy is one of the things that won me over to the breed. I have always preferred a hotter horse, and used to make jokes about having to do CPR on my QH to get him started because he was so laid back, which made him perfect for my beginner husband. 

And I totally agree with you about the mental picture a lot of folks have about a 'solid' horse. My old QH again, was foundation bred and my trainer used to make jokes that Lucky didn't have withers, he had shoulders like a bull. He was 14.3 and in his prime weighed 1600 lbs and wore an 84" blanket. I always said I felt like I was straddling the dining room table when riding in my ENGLISH saddle, I wouldn't even consider riding a bigger Western saddle. Because I'm really small, 5'2" and I have realllllly short legs, the width of the typical wider QH or even the wider Appy isn't comfortable to me, but a well sprung heart girth on an Arab is PERFECT and actually makes me feel like an adult rider with my legs down the side of the horse instead of one of the kids on a Shetland that you see in Thelwell comics. I don't care how TALL the horse is as long as it's not WIDE into the bargain. I also find I'm not comfortable on a slab sided horse. I rode a lesson horse for a cutting lesson and the poor thing had no spring to its ribs at all and in a western saddle I found I needed a spur with a really long neck on it to just be able to reach the horse's sides to communicate with it.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Remali said:


> Dreamcatcher...... OMG what a small world it is, Desperado Moon was owned at one time by a friend of mine (here in Wisconsin)! It's great to see that he is doing so well!!


Hay Remali, Moonie is doing awesome. I got him last winter and he had had it kind of rough the last several years and developed quite an attitude. When I went in his stall and he gave me his backside was the day he lost his "jewels". It was kind of funny, he had a show record but when I got on him he was like riding a bike with no handle bars. Now, he's so soft if I touch him with my leg he just gives me his whole body and I can spin him on a dime and make change. My trainer is AWESOME! I'm very excited about taking him to Nationals next week and giving him a go. He's become a 
VERY personable and friendly horse. 

It's kind of funny too, everyone in the Arabian show ring seems to ride with a lot of weight in their reins ( and I have too, but gotta say I don't care much for it) and I have a gorgeous Dale Chavez bridle & set of romel reins to match my saddle and was very leery of using them on Moonie because of his past issues. I tried them out on him just yesterday and he got even LIGHTER in his responses, I was DELIGHTED! So the Moon Goon guy and I will be riding weightless at USN.


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

That is so wonderful about Moon! I'll be looking forward to hearing how he does at Nationals! It was many years ago when I saw him, if I remember right my friend maybe did some halter with him, and then I believe he was sold to some place down near Texas, or the coast somewhere down there. It sounds like he is living the good life with you, he's a neat horse.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Remali said:


> That is so wonderful about Moon! I'll be looking forward to hearing how he does at Nationals! It was many years ago when I saw him, if I remember right my friend maybe did some halter with him, and then I believe he was sold to some place down near Texas, or the coast somewhere down there. It sounds like he is living the good life with you, he's a neat horse.


Yeah, the trainer he was with in TX is not one I'd let within 100 yards of any horse I own. Moonie was a very justifiably ANGRY horse when I got him. However, sticking your hiney in my face and basically telling me to have my secretary call your secretary and we'll do lunch, is not an attitude I'll accept from any horse. Now he comes up to the front of his stall to say, "Hello" loves Bananen Sweetis and Lekkerwerful Sweet Bits and basically has decided life is a pretty good thing.


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

I'm so glad Moonie is no longer with that trainer, I've had a couple run-ins with a couple "trainers" in my area of Wisconsin, and no one could pay me any amount of money to let them near my horse or anyone's horse. The friend of mine who used to own Moon just adores all of here Arabians, and treated them all so well, I'm so glad Moon is in good hands once again.


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## Crossover (Sep 18, 2010)

Faceman said:


> The Araloosas I bred, raised, and trained, were specifically bred for rugged endurance work in mountain terrain, which requires a combination of endurance and strength, and a calm, cooperative, and willing disposition. Personally I prefer crossing with Appys rather than Quarterhorses because Appys, at least real Appys, are hardier and more endurance oriented than Quarterhorses, but whether an Araloosa or a Quarab, both crosses are arguably the best at this discipline. I've done a lot of wilderness riding in beautiful but just horrible terrain over the years and have never encountered a breed or crossbreed that can cover as much really tough terrain in a day or a week. Flat or moderate trails is a different matter, of course, but if I'm headed to the Rockies for a week-long pack trip where I want to cover a lot of ground and don't want an injured horsed that forces me to walk 20 or 30 miles back to civilization, I want a good Araloosa or as an alternative a good Quarab...


 
I love the arab/ appy cross. I've owned three and worked with many more and they all seem to have the best of both sides when it comes to temperment and conformation. My weanling Millie is just so sweet and smart (not that I'm prejudice or anything ). If she wasn't related to my stud colt I'd hold onto her with both hands and never let go.


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

I don't think I mentioned this cross yet.... but one I'd personally love to own is a Welsh-Arab cross, or Welsh Cob-Arab cross, next to Arabians, Welsh are my other loves.


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## Skutterbotch (Dec 1, 2009)

I love arab crosses! I work/show an arab/paint. She is wicked smart! Sure, sometimes she can have lots of energy but once you channel it, the possibilities are endless!


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## FSHjumper (Apr 26, 2011)

well Remali, I have a WONDERFUL welsh/arabian cross gelding for sale  Ive been training him and I truly truly love him, hes just such a good athletic little thing  I adore welshs as well, if only they were bigger. (Yes I know you they come in a range of sizes depending on whether their a, b, or c, and cob but the little ponies are the cuter ones  ) I have a thread on here of the little welsh/arab cross thats for sale, you should check it out to see his pics! Hes a doll!!!

Skutterbotch, is it a pintabian or just a paint/arabian cross? I really want to breed my girl to this local paint stallion but I just dont think its the right time so ill have to pass on it, but man do they make cute foals!


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

I really do adore those Arabian/Welsh crosses.... **sigh** If I was in a position right now to buy a horse, I'd be beating a path to get one. I bet your gelding is beautiful FSHjumper.


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## amt73 (Dec 27, 2011)

I think the anglo/arab w hanoverian is pretty nice looking.
ive seen many friesian arabian crosses. They are very lovely, sporty looking
i own an arab/paint crossed with a friesian stud the filly is so nice. Shes very sweet but has the speed and an gentleness to her, and shes moves very well. I personally love friesian crosses with a hot horse, esp arabians.Good luck!


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## amt73 (Dec 27, 2011)

Heres a pic of my filly she was a little over a year old


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

I've seen some exquisite Friesian/Arab and Andalusian Arab crosses..
You always take a chance with a cross- even with both parents being near perfect.
Good luck with your decision.


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## MagicDestiny (Dec 4, 2010)

I remember seeing one half arabian/friesian that was just a drop dead gorgeous mare. She was jet, black with a perfect star, and she really did well in the Show Hack division at the arabian shows. Her name was MDA Faith, I wish I had a picture of her, but unfortunately I don't. I did find the breeder's website, however. It looks like they have sold numerous half arab/friesian crosses that are far from ugly. I've seen MDA Cinco De Mayo, MDA Darby, and MDA Faith all in person, and all had wonderful, lofty movement. Here's their website: Welcome to MorThanA Dream Arabians  with some pictures. So, I'd say a friesian wouldn't be a bad choice at all. Although, I'm not sure how well friesian/arab crosses would do in the sporthorse, jumping areas. My second choice would be a hanoverian cross, and then after that thoroughbred. Good luck deciding!


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I love how 1 in every 1 million horses excels in a discipline it was completely unsuited for, and somehow that suddenly makes the entire breed good at that discipline. I mean, why bother with centuries of selective breeding if it's just that easy?! 

Someone should probably tell those silly Europeans they'd get MUCH better scores if they just dumped the Warmbloods and all started riding Arabs. 

And I'm an Arab person, so don't bother calling me a hater. I have a very sporty and athletic Arab who defies most Arab stereotypes. That doesn't mean I have ANY delusions that she'd ever be a Grand Prix Dressage horse or that she's going to win a national title in roping. I don't love her any less for it, and thrilled she has so much endurance since I love trail riding first and foremost!


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

MagicDestiny said:


> I remember seeing one half arabian/friesian that was just a drop dead gorgeous mare. She was jet, black with a perfect star, and she really did well in the Show Hack division at the arabian shows. Her name was MDA Faith, I wish I had a picture of her, but unfortunately I don't. I did find the breeder's website, however. It looks like they have sold numerous half arab/friesian crosses that are far from ugly. I've seen MDA Cinco De Mayo, MDA Darby, and MDA Faith all in person, and all had wonderful, lofty movement. Here's their website: Welcome to MorThanA Dream Arabians* with some pictures. So, I'd say a friesian wouldn't be a bad choice at all. Although, I'm not sure how well friesian/arab crosses would do in the sporthorse, jumping areas. My second choice would be a hanoverian cross, and then after that thoroughbred. Good luck deciding!


Exquisite crosses indeed.


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## KDeHaven42 (Sep 21, 2010)

I know you've already made your decision for the time being-- kudos to you for making a responsible choice. I cringe when I hear a woman who wants babies everywhere-- her own babies, puppies, foals, all at the same time. There are way too many out there because all need attention an work and someone is gonna get slighted.

That being said, here is my opinion on your dilemma. First off, let me state, that if you have a specific need for a specific type of animal. NOTHING can beat going out and purchasing precisely what you want (and yes, especially in this economy where a $20,000 animal is going for less than $10K). If in fact, you are hoping for certain traits but your passion lies in the experience of breeding and raising (and training) a foal, regardless of what you come up with, then by all means, breed on. Just be responsible and reasonable. (which it sounds like you are). People say it all the time, but remember: its 50:50. Which means you have a chance that you're foal will take on the worst physical qualities from each mare and stallion. Make sure whatever pair you're breeding could stand up to those odds. Yo could breed a refined arab to the thickest QH you can find and still wind up riding a bean pole narrow animal. 

On a side note of breeding PB vs crosses: I am an Arabian person through and through. I have a 3/4 Arabian that is the light of my life and suits me fantastically. She will never do grand prix dressage or jump 3'6" competitively, but she does her hunter courses, lower level dressage, and is a great pleasure horse. That being said, I know many Arabs and Arab crosses that could compete competitively at any level of pretty much any discipline. It's all in the individual, but many times they are the exception, not the rule. Its the back handed nature of breeding to restrict our horses by conformation. If you really like the Arabian qualities and really just want something slightly wider/thicker, look at the French and Polish bred Arabians. If you want something substantially thicker, than yeah, look elsewhere  

I've seen many Arab/Morgan crosses that make me reach for my checkbook with greedy fingers. Their movement tends to be stunning and, from what I've seen, it really bulks up the body frame but leaves that exquisiteness that the Arab brings. I am, however a light to light breeder. I have seen heavy to light crosses (TB/Perch and TB/shire in particular) that are VERY nice, however I've seen 5x more that are more than a little wonky. I don't know enough about this particular cross to say it was a breeder fault or nature but from where I stand (with a degree in genetics and cell/molecular biology) I have to say that you're crossing from two ends of the spectrum which leaves a lot of room for error. A LOT. If you have time and patience (and $$) you could of course cross a few nice ones. But what happens to the "duds"? Fodder for the slaughterhouses? Not very responsible, IMO. But, like I said I see nice heavy/light crosses, so I'm not entirely against it. I just think if you want to breed, go ahead, but make sure its done very responsibly. 
::end rant::


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

When breeding heavy to light ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS breed blood over bone. As in, lighter hot-blooded stallion over the heavier mare.

The other way round results in more draft-horse qualities which is not what you want if you're breeding for a jumper.


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## Tapperjockey (Jan 2, 2012)

Spyder said:


> And which ones have done grand prix dressage ?


i can answer this 

Okw Entrigue, Aul Magic, Al-Marah Quebec and Ta'ez of the top of my head. I'm sure there are several I am forgetting, but those 4 all have done Grand Prix Dressage.

Arabians are still used in Trakehner breeding as "improvement sires" (though the term applies to both sires and dams), and in Appaloosas. Until the 1950s they were an approved outcross for Quarter Horses as well, and many quarter horses go back to them, from the days when they were used heavily in the remount stations in the western US (and therefore Paints and Appaloosas have the breeding too). And ofcourse the Welsh Ponies (Sec B) used them quite heavily. Crabbet stud bred several by Skowronek and out of welsh mares.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

blue eyed pony said:


> When breeding heavy to light ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS breed blood over bone. As in, lighter hot-blooded stallion over the heavier mare.
> 
> The other way round results in more draft-horse qualities which is not what you want if you're breeding for a jumper.


This makes no sense at all. The build of the foal has nothing to do with the gender of the parents. The inclination to be heavier or lighter comes from years of breeding and can pop out spontaneously. Shay-la's Clyde/TB mare was FAR more Drafty than sporty and she was from a racing TB sire and a Clydesdale mare. I bred my dainty Arab mare to a monster of a Hanoverian and she produced a lovely mid sized sporty cross ideal for Dressage and/or jumping.

It's a pretty blanket statement to crossbreed two horses and just assume that the traits inherited are directly from the parents. And if your horse isn't coming out as intended, then you need to do better studying on the generations of the parents BEFORE it. I don't understand how people don't realize that a trait suddenly appearing could be from a grandsire three generations back.

Quite frankly, I think you're speaking from the inclination of breeding well conformed and sporty studs to crossbred Drafty mares, where of course the well thought out breeding program that produced the stud is in play and drastically improving on the mare. It's very rare you will ever find someone breeding a good quality sport mare to a total crap Draft stud, so of COURSE you're going to see "better jumpers" out of heavy mare crosses by sporty studs, just by statistics alone.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Tapperjockey said:


> i can answer this
> 
> Okw Entrigue, Aul Magic, Al-Marah Quebec and Ta'ez of the top of my head. I'm sure there are several I am forgetting, but those 4 all have done Grand Prix Dressage.


In open competition? Successfully against Warmbloods?


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

I just LOVE the idea of Anglo Arabs. In fact, it is a breed of horse I fully intend to own one day (I'm a TB girl). However, I have seen far more sub-par examples than I have seen good examples (I suspect it is the same with other crosses).

That's not to say that it is a poor cross; it can be a wonderful cross. I just sure as hell wouldn't want to be the one rolling THAT dice myself.

I would say shop around for a 2/3yo that _exactly_ meets your needs rather than investing a whole heap of time and money when the odds not necessarily in your favour.


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## MagicDestiny (Dec 4, 2010)

It looks like Aul Magic has. To quote from the website I included below: "In California, Aul Magic+/ also won first place ribbons in open Dressage competitions. In September, he was High Point Champion at the Central Coast Dressage Classic, earning a 73.714 score in First Level Dressage. He was the only purebred Arabian entered.
The year 2001 ended with Aul Magic+/ winning the USDF All Breeds Awards in both First and Second Level Dressage for Arabians, as well as the USA Equestrian (AHSA) Dressage Horse of the Year Award for Arabians." 

For Immediate Release

I haven't looked too indepth into the subject, but it looks like arabians do in fact win in open shows against warmbloods. No, it's not the norm. I mean Warmbloods are specifically bred for dressage, but arabians can do well in open competition against other breeds as well.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> This makes no sense at all. The build of the foal has nothing to do with the gender of the parents. The inclination to be heavier or lighter comes from years of breeding and can pop out spontaneously. Shay-la's Clyde/TB mare was FAR more Drafty than sporty and she was from a racing TB sire and a Clydesdale mare. I bred my dainty Arab mare to a monster of a Hanoverian and she produced a lovely mid sized sporty cross ideal for Dressage and/or jumping.
> 
> It's a pretty blanket statement to crossbreed two horses and just assume that the traits inherited are directly from the parents. And if your horse isn't coming out as intended, then you need to do better studying on the generations of the parents BEFORE it. I don't understand how people don't realize that a trait suddenly appearing could be from a grandsire three generations back.
> 
> Quite frankly, I think you're speaking from the inclination of breeding well conformed and sporty studs to crossbred Drafty mares, where of course the well thought out breeding program that produced the stud is in play and drastically improving on the mare. It's very rare you will ever find someone breeding a good quality sport mare to a total crap Draft stud, so of COURSE you're going to see "better jumpers" out of heavy mare crosses by sporty studs, just by statistics alone.



Actually the accomplished breeders in Europe and here will advocate this policy.

And it has nothing to do with a first cross draft to lighter boned( TB type) or traits that one parent may contribute over the other.

It has simply been proven over and over again that the quality of the foal is better when the parents are crossed like this ( nor am I referring to all draft mares).

You may have seen the reverse but those crosses are the kind that are not thought out, but more in the category of any old of one over any old of the other. The successful breeders of quality horses either here in NA or Europe think out their breeding more carefully.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

MM genetically yes, the mare and stallion give equally, so it doesn't make sense that it should be so - but I am quoting a very well-respected and experienced Clydesdale-cross sporthorse breeder in my state who consistently produces high-level performance horses, so it's her opinion that I will trust over someone whose qualifications and experience I know nothing about (and over the logic in my own mind). Said breeder is a very successful breeder whose horses I would be honoured to have anything to do with. And that's saying a lot because I am very picky with the type of horse I consider ideal.


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## rachelgem (Oct 22, 2011)

I knew an Arab x Highland, it was amazing! He was nicely forward going, but very calm and nice natured, if i was to get an Arab cross, it would definitely be Arab x Highland! He was a delight to watch being ridden.


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## Hidalgo13 (Dec 24, 2010)

I always thought you had to breed blood over bone because if you didn't, the mare might die if the fool is too big. For example, an Arabian mare with a Frisian stallion might get complications due to the foal being bigger than she can handle????


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

rachelgem said:


> I knew an Arab x Highland, it was amazing! He was nicely forward going, but very calm and nice natured, if i was to get an Arab cross, it would definitely be Arab x Highland! He was a delight to watch being ridden.


Yeah, a pal of mine has one of those. Competes at endurance events with him. Nice horse.


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## HAFWalkers (Jan 2, 2012)

I like the arabin and TWH cross aka Arawalker


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## Tapperjockey (Jan 2, 2012)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> In open competition? Successfully against Warmbloods?


yuppers. They had to be shown in open competition. that's how they got the approval to be in the Oldenburg and Trakehner books. All 4 are approved ATA or ISR-Oldenburg


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## Tapperjockey (Jan 2, 2012)

Hidalgo13 said:


> I always thought you had to breed blood over bone because if you didn't, the mare might die if the fool is too big. For example, an Arabian mare with a Frisian stallion might get complications due to the foal being bigger than she can handle????


it was probably more a financial decision as well as distance. PB arabian and TB mares were too valuable to produce "grade" horses, and it would require quite a few to upgrade the local horses, where a stallion can have a significant impact on a breed just from sheer volume of mares he's able to breed. 1 foal/yr for 20 years.. or 100 foals/year. Made more sense to buy/import/procure a stallion to cover many mares, that it would to get a mare.


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## kitos (Jul 25, 2020)

*clydes/arabian*

hi did you cross an arabian with a clydesdale? i am very interested in the easthetic result.


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