# A Sudden Realization! (Bareback and Bridleless)



## existentialpony (Dec 4, 2012)

Good for you both! I too always find that the more naked my horse is, the better our communication! :lol: If I have a problem working Western, I go English for a few days. If I'm having a problem working English, I go bareback and sometimes bridleless. Isn't it neat how minimizing your "tools" for communicating actually makes you work harder to understand eachother?


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

You do realize it's very logical. More matter between you and the horse, therefore less of a feel.

But without control of your seat and soft giving release.. you will run into the same problems, or they may get worse due to the "exposed" back.

Training is training is training.


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## 40232 (Jan 10, 2013)

I think I pay more attention to my body position without any tack, and my aides for that matter. Everything is more refined. He is so much calmer, and naturally lowers his head and relaxes. (He is a half arab, so he has some fire). I've had many people tell me I ride the best bareback. I'm just so happy that I'm finding something that works! My new goal is to work on bridleless and bareback dressage (hopefully higher level stuff eventually) and jumping. I am re-motivated on my riding and progression in training. I love this feeling!


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

And when you want to do one thing and he wants to do something different, what is your plan for that? That time WILL come and you are not going to be in a very good position to effect the outcome. 
Just asking???
Cherie


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I'm glad this is working for you. As for the saddle, if your saddle is an economy model it can be the hindrance. From experience a well made saddle can make a huge difference as the tree is superior.


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## 40232 (Jan 10, 2013)

Cherie said:


> And when you want to do one thing and he wants to do something different, what is your plan for that? That time WILL come and you are not going to be in a very good position to effect the outcome.
> Just asking???
> Cherie


I guess I will hope for the best! Probably keep changing the way I'm asking him to the slightest difference until he gets it, and until I learn the correct cue.

At least i'm not scared of the ground!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 40232 (Jan 10, 2013)

Saddlebag said:


> I'm glad this is working for you. As for the saddle, if your saddle is an economy model it can be the hindrance. From experience a well made saddle can make a huge difference as the tree is superior.


It is really odd. I used to use a $500 saddle by flexrider, but then I switched to a $40 tack sale, worn out saddle and he did tons better. And now he's in a brand new Collegiate Senior Event saddle, and we still have a problem with some of the riding stuff.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

If removing the saddle makes a big & immediate improvement in the horse, then there was something wrong with the saddle. If using a neck rope gives a big & immediate improvement over using a bit, then there was either something wrong with the bit, or with how the bit was being used. Saddles and bits have been used for a long time because they HELP, not because they hinder. But if they don't fit, or are used wrong, then they can hurt and cause problems.


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## 40232 (Jan 10, 2013)

bsms said:


> If removing the saddle makes a big & immediate improvement in the horse, then there was something wrong with the saddle. If using a neck rope gives a big & immediate improvement over using a bit, then there was either something wrong with the bit, or with how the bit was being used. Saddles and bits have been used for a long time because they HELP, not because they hinder. But if they don't fit, or are used wrong, then they can hurt and cause problems.


The saddle was bought on a trainers recommendation. It is a nice saddle. The bridle was also bought on a trainers recommendation, as was the bit. It is a simple O-ring, for dressage. 

He is so much more tuned into me without tack. The slighest movement directs him. He always would pull and pull against the bit, and now he doesn't since he doesn't work in a bridle anymore. It makes him so much calmer. I used to have hards hands but I have gotten over that problem. 

My plan is to get the basics down bareback and bridleless, and then slowly add the saddle and bridle back. By then, I'm pretty sure he will be operating purely off of my body, where the bit wouldn't really be used at all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

If a saddle and bridle are well fitting then the difference in comfort to the horse is likely to be neglible.
I have no issues with people riding without tack but horses are unpredictable creatures at best so its not something I'd want to promote outside of a fenced enclosure
Riding bareback is OK when you're young but honestly I appreciate the comfort of a good saddle these days!!!
Falling off is never problem until (a) the ground meets you at the wrong angle & (b) as you get older you don't bounce so well and your bones become more brittle


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## amberly (Dec 16, 2012)

Could you do a video of you and your horse? I would love to see it!!


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## alexischristina (Jun 30, 2009)

With how drastic you describe the changes, I'm on the band wagon of ill fitting tack. Trainer recommendation or not, horses shapes change, a trainers' 'favourite' might work for one, but not another, and if it works for your horse at point A it might not at point B because of weight / muscle gain or loss. 

I think being able to work tackless with your horse is great! I would be too worried about riding bareback regularly having a negative affect on my horses back... but if that's not something that concerns you (Jackson does have a fairly long back) and you're not planning on showing, then great. Just make sure you're working safely and slowly to minimize the risk of a 'blow up'.


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## Foxtail Ranch (Mar 10, 2012)

Where is the research that says bareback is bad for horses? Saddles were not invented for NOT for the comfort of horses but for the comfort of man.Where did this idea come from?

I enjoy bareback riding (with a pad, mostly to keep my pants clean) and so does my horse, as she seems more ready to go and more relaxed in the bareback pad. I never liked a saddle, but I am definitely a low-rent equestrian so I have never had a "quality" saddle. 

But I feel safer without a saddle, especially if the horse is unpredictable. How many people have hooked their foot in a stirrup or their bra on a horn? I have and it scared me. So I prefer bareback. 

I have ridden in a halter too. My mare April sounds a lot like BSMS's Mia. When I got her, she refused to be bridled or saddled by rearing. I rode her bareback and in halter until I trained her to accept the bareback pad, then saddle, then bridle. But I admit I prefer the pad. I like her short, broad (full QH bar) back and her spirit. It's fun and requires an athleticism I enjoy. 

I do cringe a little at the thought of no bridle but I don't have the kind of job that gives me the free hours to train to that level. I struggle just to ride my herd enough to keep them to an acceptable level of obedience. 

I understand the joy of bareback riding! But I prefer a bridle with it.


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## alexischristina (Jun 30, 2009)

Saddles are there to distribute the weight of a human over the horses back. Riding bareback centers all of your weight on a considerably smaller portion of your horses back and while some horses may be "okay" with bareback riding, others aren't.


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## 40232 (Jan 10, 2013)

amberly said:


> Could you do a video of you and your horse? I would love to see it!!


I will be posting one on youtube in 2-3 weeks since in a few days I'm leaving on vacation!


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## 40232 (Jan 10, 2013)

alexischristina said:


> With how drastic you describe the changes, I'm on the band wagon of ill fitting tack. Trainer recommendation or not, horses shapes change, a trainers' 'favourite' might work for one, but not another, and if it works for your horse at point A it might not at point B because of weight / muscle gain or loss.
> 
> I think being able to work tackless with your horse is great! I would be too worried about riding bareback regularly having a negative affect on my horses back... but if that's not something that concerns you (Jackson does have a fairly long back) and you're not planning on showing, then great. Just make sure you're working safely and slowly to minimize the risk of a 'blow up'.


The tack fits just fine. I've ruled that possibility out months ago. Tack just adds to the fire of my horse, I don't know why.


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## Little Jane (Mar 7, 2013)

KylieHuitema said:


> The tack fits just fine. I've ruled that possibility out months ago. Tack just adds to the fire of my horse, I don't know why.


The "tack just adds to the fire" part makes me think something is ill-fitted. How did you rule out the possibility of it not fitting well? Have you had his teeth checked? The bit may be bothering him.

I am looking forward to being able to ride my mare bareback someday, but she's young, and while she's still even the slightest bit green, I'm not going to risk anything. I've only come off a horse twice, and both times the horse didn't buck or anything, but both times hurt enough for me to get a pretty good appreciation of the hardness of the ground and the unpredictability of a horse. Riding bareback provides a wonderful connection to the horse, but often I think it is the result of an already-closely-bonded pair. Cheers to you for having achieved that with your horse, but do be careful. A spook is more easily handled with a saddle and bridle than bareback.


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## alexischristina (Jun 30, 2009)

What sort of bit were you using? A bit can fit perfectly (or appear to) without pinching or cutting the horses mouth, but each horses mouth is shaped a little differently and some just can't handle certain kinds of bits even if they're 'mild'. Thicker bits are generally considered more mild than thin bits, but having a thick bit to some horses is uncomfortable, in the same way some horses hate a simple single-joint snaffle, etc. that said, the fact that the problem pops up with tack and goes away without makes me almost CERTAIN something is making her uncomfortable.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

There are a lot of horses that never get over the panic feeling they get when the girth (cinch) gets tightened up, they learn to control it but can still explode if something happens to make them spook or jump and they feel the sudden pressure.
Sometimes just lunging them or walking them around for a few minutes before you get on helps and when ridden regularly it tends to go away but returns if they have any length of time off.
A horse like this should always be checked over for spinal problems though and not just dismissed as being 'cold backed'


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## 40232 (Jan 10, 2013)

Little Jane said:


> The "tack just adds to the fire" part makes me think something is ill-fitted. How did you rule out the possibility of it not fitting well? Have you had his teeth checked? The bit may be bothering him.
> 
> I am looking forward to being able to ride my mare bareback someday, but she's young, and while she's still even the slightest bit green, I'm not going to risk anything. I've only come off a horse twice, and both times the horse didn't buck or anything, but both times hurt enough for me to get a pretty good appreciation of the hardness of the ground and the unpredictability of a horse. Riding bareback provides a wonderful connection to the horse, but often I think it is the result of an already-closely-bonded pair. Cheers to you for having achieved that with your horse, but do be careful. A spook is more easily handled with a saddle and bridle than bareback.



I've had 2 professionals look at each one of my saddles and how they fit my horse, and only my western one fits a tad tight on his withers. 

I'm not sure how to describe the change in him, but I'll try. I started him as a 4h huntseat horse, where he did incredible. I had him in a kimberwick, would teetertotter for his headset, and use my hands to stop, along with a vocal cue. He had wonderful, collected gaits.
After a few years of that, I took a year off of competing, and only did a couple shows. He was still the same huntseat horse.
At some point after I quit 4h, he began to be very forward, which I have no problem with, if i can control it. I started at a hunter jumper barn, which probably started my problem. They wanted little contact on him, with loose rejns all the time, so there was no real consistency in his gaits. So that's when he really learned how to be gogogo and not really whoa. He started rushing jumps, and all that jazz.
I quit that hunterjumper barn, and went back to training alone. The following year I found an eventing trainer. She helped me develop him into a dressage horse, but still with him having very forward gaits.

Through the jumping trainers, he was in a D ring snaffle and an o ring snaffle.


He still is very forward bareback, but i'm trying to develop my body so I can slow him down/etc with just my body, not hands


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

This will open a can of worms, but it sounds to me like he learned how to ignore a snaffle. It isn't that hard to do, and a horse who likes to go may figure it out. For Mia, I switched to bit designs that include poll pressure: an elevator bit and a western curb (Billy Allen, I think is what it is called). A horse cannot avoid the poll pressure, so she started listening again - even on those days when she would prefer to ignore my input.

This has also freed up her head. I've decided the days where I come back from a ride with tired shoulders because of her pulling are over. I had never tried for a headset, but she wanted to feel my hands on the reins...and sometimes wanted a lot more pressure than I wanted.

We also made stopping a high priority. Lots of stops, from W/T/C, and she needs to make a good faith effort to stop quickly, with all feet squared up, then settle and not fidget.

The combination has resulted in a much calmer horse. It goes against what a lot of people believe, but she moves easier, more relaxed and calmer with a curb bit (and slack) than in a snaffle. If she wants to go faster than I ask for, the ultimate correction is a full stop, wait a minute, then try again. For a lazy horse, that would be a 'reward'. For an energetic horse who wants to GO, that is a punishment.

I am NOT telling you to follow my example. I offer it up as food for thought. If you have an intelligent, thinking horse who enjoys speed, can they develop a resentment for being ridden 'on the bit', and respond better to freedom? If you made the change to bareback and bridleless at the same time, could the bridleless part be what is helping your horse?

I am not a huge fan of bitless, having tried it for 3 years (never tried bridleless), but I think some horses respond better to a less directive approach. With Mia, there seems to be a fine line between providing the direction she craves with providing so much she resents it. The former calms her. The latter makes her angry. She wants direction, but not to be dominated.

If none of this rambling stream-of-consciousness helps, I'm sorry and please ignore it. I'm still trying to puzzle out how to balance freedom and control with my mare. The two geldings I own are much simpler - pop a snaffle in their mouth, don't use it for balance, and they are happy. But not all horses respond the same way to the same thing...


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

You are taking away all of the things he has had bad associations with, and all of the "security" features of a saddle. Some reasons he would take to bare back more easily:

If his saddle has become uncomfortable, his bit isn't the best for his mouth shape and/or he has bad associations with tack, he would naturally do better with taking it away.

If you had previous issues with having hard hands, or perhaps tend to really focus on certain things while riding, (need to work on leg position, so lose focus on using your seat to stop/slow, etc) then you would be much better off as a rider going bareback, having taken away the things you had issues with, forcing you to focus on balance and using your seat properly.

its a good idea, when a horse and/or rider has had issues, to go back to basics as much as possible, allowing you to refocus on the important facets of riding, the basic connection and clear communication between horse and rider, then build back up to where you should be.

the fact that he does his lead changes much better bareback says one of two things to me. either the saddle doesn't fit in some way, making it hard for him to do what you ask, or you are not asking right in the first place and your being on bareback makes a cue that was previously confusing to him much more clear.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

in regards to bits, horses have different mouth shapes, which means certain bits will work better than others. my last mare had a shallow pallet, and single jointed bits bothered her. a double jointed snaffle got rid of that problem.

my current mare has a small mouth, higher pallet and thicker tongue. She DETESTS double jointed bits(often viewed as milder bits), but goes extremely well in a single jointed snaffle.

many horses that are happier in a curb are that way because someone has mistreated their mouths, and/or not started them correctly. 99% of horses need to learn to respond to bit pressure. very few, if any, horses naturally turn with minimal contact the first time they have a bit in their mouth. you get them used to the feel, then gently teach them to flex and move when pressure is applied, and stop softly. the reward is a correctly timed release. if a horse is started in a solid curb(or that accursed tom thumb), which is not made for direct reining, and pulled around in it, you end up with a confused, dead mouthed horse. the rider asks for a turn, the bit signals a stop, the confused horse doesn't respond by turning, so the rider pulls harder. finally the horse, desperate to get away from the preasure on its mouth, poll and chin, follows the preasure on the opposite side of its head(rider pulls on left rein, there is preasure on the poll, chin, mouth and sideways, on the right side of the mouth) and turns. repeat every direction change. Then someone else gets the horse and figures they will do the nice thing and put them in a snaffle, but the only way to control them is constantly hauling on their mouth, because they have learned there is no release. they need lots of retraining, and being taken back to basics, and even then they sometimes never forget their initial training.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

BlueSpark said:


> ...many horses that are happier in a curb are that way because someone has mistreated their mouths, and/or not started them correctly...


Why? Why do you believe a curb is a sign of bad treatment or bad training?

Why is it hard to believe that some horses naturally respond well to pressure on the poll instead of in their mouths? Why is a bit that only uses mouth pressure considered better than a bit that uses a different area as well? 

Most horses in a western curb neck rein, and most carry their head naturally. It seems plausible to me that many horses might well prefer that to being ridden with constant contact. It also seem plausible to me that a horse who has been ridden with constant contact might prefer bitless, or even bridleless - particularly if that contact involved anything other than very light hands. If a horse shows sudden and large improvement bitless, then I have to wonder either about the bit used, or how it was used. There is nothing inherently gentle about a snaffle, particularly if the snaffle is used with constant contact.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> Why? Why do you believe a curb is a sign of bad treatment or bad training?


That's why I said "many", not "all". there are a few that are far happier in a curb than a snaffle. Out of all the dozens of horses I've known and worked with, there was one that was genuinely like that. Your horse sounds the same. If a horse neck reins, is not happy in a snaffle and the rider has soft hands, a curb is fine.

to me they should be used sparingly, and only if necessary, when the horse and rider meet the above criteria, or if the horse and rider are very knowledgeable and trained in its use, where it serves a specific purpose.

I have seen so many horses ruined by starting them in a curb. A curb is meant to be used on a broke horse, that neck reins. A snaffle or bit less is great for most occupations, with the odd horse needing a different bit. certain disciplines, and particularly very well broke horses in higher levels of competition, need more sophisticated bits, where the rider and horse are very knowledgeable and the bit is used as an advanced form of communication.

I'm totally opposed to very few bits, such as the tom thumb, which is a confusing bit at the best of times, and ones that are obviously cruel, such as bike chains and extremely thin wire bits.

many bits have a proper place, my problem is when people use them out of context. A curb is not a colt starting bit. neither is a kimberwick. A bit with long shanks has no place on a green horse, and they should not be used as bandaids for issues. the number of "cowboys" who start colts in a curb, then, as their mouths get progressively deader, move into one with a higher port, chain instead of strap and longer shanks. eventually they resent having such a severe bit yanked on, so they evade, by throwing their heads in the air, so they slap on a tie down, so they can gallop their hard mouthed horse around full speed, spurring them all the time, then yank them to a stop, mouths gaping, head braced against tie down. These horses typically have scars on their mouths, and spur scars on their sides. 

I am working with a mare that was ridden in a long shanked curb and spurs. she was spurred a lot, but only to go faster. she is panicky go-go-go all the time, and has no idea how to respond to light pressure on a snaffle. I have taken her right back to a soft leather side pull, to start over, because of what ignorant jerks did to her.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

The difference in our perspective may be from the practices we see around us. Around here, most of the horses I've seen or rented have been started on a snaffle. Many are kept there, and then ridden with slack reins and neck reining. Which is fine for many. Trooper is normally ridden in a snaffle, but he necks reins like a champ regardless - and neck reins fine in a rope halter.

However, I don't see where a horse would prefer a snaffle unless the curb training was poorly done. I had never worked a horse in a curb, but it only took about 3 rides of 30-45 minutes each for Mia to settle in to the idea - so it is not a hard transition. And I've seen more riders ham-fist their horses in snaffles than I have in curbs. Riding with contact arguably requires softer hands than riding with a western curb using one hand. It is pretty tough to unintentionally manhandle a western curb with slack reins and not notice. You have to take all the slack out, and then apply force without knowing how much you are applying - and I haven't seen that much here. OTOH, I have seen riders trying to put their horse's head in a frame with a snaffle and wondered why their horse didn't throw them.

Of course, I've also removed a bunch of hair from Mia's face using a rope halter, and have darn near ripped her head off in a snaffle when she wanted to run toward danger (roads with fast traffic, sharp drops or turns she couldn't hack)...so I don't have a lot of room for condemning anyone!


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## HorseCrazyTeen (Jul 29, 2012)

This is why I prefer riding bareback to using a saddle! I ride bareback as often or more than I do with a saddle. I do however use a bit most of the time, though I can ride in just a web halter with no real problems.


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## 40232 (Jan 10, 2013)

bsms said:


> This will open a can of worms, but it sounds to me like he learned how to ignore a snaffle. It isn't that hard to do, and a horse who likes to go may figure it out. For Mia, I switched to bit designs that include poll pressure: an elevator bit and a western curb (Billy Allen, I think is what it is called). A horse cannot avoid the poll pressure, so she started listening again - even on those days when she would prefer to ignore my input.
> 
> This has also freed up her head. I've decided the days where I come back from a ride with tired shoulders because of her pulling are over. I had never tried for a headset, but she wanted to feel my hands on the reins...and sometimes wanted a lot more pressure than I wanted.
> 
> ...



He does the same thing with all bits. I use a bit with shanks yesterday, and he was just as terrible. Today I worked him in a snaffle, emphasizing on the whoa. Basically we did walk, stop, back. Again and again. He was good until I let him do a little trot and then stop. He got it in his mind to go go go. So anytime he would break from the walk to the trot, we would stop and back ALOT. Eventually when I would stop backing he would automatically try to walk on, and that was a big no no. So more backing and backing with lateral flexion added in.

At a certain point in time he would not get the point so I pushed him forward and pushed him around in little circles at a fast trot into a canter. After he got to stop, back, sidepass and do lateral work. After all that was done, I ended it there so it wouldn't continue to go downhill. I ended on a good note atleast.


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## 40232 (Jan 10, 2013)

BlueSpark said:


> You are taking away all of the things he has had bad associations with, and all of the "security" features of a saddle. Some reasons he would take to bare back more easily:
> 
> If his saddle has become uncomfortable, his bit isn't the best for his mouth shape and/or he has bad associations with tack, he would naturally do better with taking it away.
> 
> ...



I will just address the lead changes. A few years ago, with the same lead problems, I had him doing flying lead changes under saddle, using the same method. Now, he just speeds up and speeds up and speeds up when I keep asking, so I won't keep going in a bad direction trying to do that.

Now, all I do is go in a figure eight, and neck rein him in the other direction where he switches it. Previously, I used to flex his head in the direction I wanted to go to change his lead, and press my foot in that direction.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

KylieHuitema said:


> He does the same thing with all bits. I use a bit with shanks yesterday, and he was just as terrible. Today I worked him in a snaffle, emphasizing on the whoa. Basically we did walk, stop, back. Again and again. He was good until I let him do a little trot and then stop. He got it in his mind to go go go. So anytime he would break from the walk to the trot, we would stop and back ALOT. Eventually when I would stop backing he would automatically try to walk on, and that was a big no no. So more backing and backing with lateral flexion added in.
> 
> At a certain point in time he would not get the point so I pushed him forward and pushed him around in little circles at a fast trot into a canter. After he got to stop, back, sidepass and do lateral work. After all that was done, I ended it there so it wouldn't continue to go downhill. I ended on a good note atleast.


How exactly do you woah your horse? If you are just hauling on his mouth, that may be why he doesn't work well in "any" bits.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Have you tried an elevator bit? If you do try a western curb bit, it helps to train them a little first. A few days ago, Mia stopped dead after a couple of bumps with the reins after sticking her leg into a cactus. I suspect a big part of that was the training of the last 3 months of working on stops constantly, but having 2 feet of leg covered in spines makes for a pretty big 'go' signal to a horse who was once a spook monster.

I'm certain you and your horse are better trained than Mia & I, so I'm just trying to puzzle this out in my own mind. It gives me food for thought as I work with Mia on our issues...


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

> I will just address the lead changes. A few years ago, with the same lead problems, I had him doing flying lead changes under saddle, using the same method. Now, he just speeds up and speeds up and speeds up when I keep asking, so I won't keep going in a bad direction trying to do that.
> 
> Now, all I do is go in a figure eight, and neck rein him in the other direction where he switches it. Previously, I used to flex his head in the direction I wanted to go to change his lead, and press my foot in that direction.


This tells me all I need to know. When someone is doing flying lead changes using a direction change and 'figure 8s', I know the rider does not ride at a very high level and lacks the skill to teach 'collection'. They also usually try to change leads by 'gunning' a horse into them which causes the horse to dread lead changes and/or speed up when they know one is coming. When horses start speeding up on lead changes, I know they have been 'gunned' into them and they have been pulled on in a futile effort to maintain a slower speed. They are also usually gunned forward when they change in front only -- something that most of the horses 'trained' in this way usually do. 

The idea that a curb is better or worse for a horse or that snaffle should always be the bit of choice is absurd. It is the person holding the reins and not the bit that causes ALL of the problems. Some horse prefer one bit to another and school better and easier in one kind of bit or another, but it is ultimately the hands on the reins that cause the problems. A good trainer can ride a well trained horse in a spade or halfbreed bit while a lousy rider will not find ANY bit, with or without shanks, that the horse trusts their hands while wearing it. 

I live in the heart of 'cowboy' country and have yet to see one start a colt in a curb bit. All of the 'cowboy' trainers that I know start them in snaffles or sidepulls. All of them also progress from a snaffle to a curb by going into curbs with swivel or 'loose' shanks that still allow two handed riding. Quite a few go into bits with hinged ported bits with bushings that also allow two handed riding. Personally, I really like them as do most of the horses I have put them on.

You just cannot compare bits if you do not take into consideration the skill of the hands using them. A crude, rough handed rider is not going to find a bit a horse will work well in while a very skilled rider can probably ride the same horse in about any bit with some being more effective than others for training and teaching.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Cherie, you took the words out of my mouth and made them better. Beautifully said.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Cherie said:


> This tells me all I need to know. When someone is doing flying lead changes using a direction change and 'figure 8s', I know the rider does not ride at a very high level and lacks the skill to teach 'collection'. They also usually try to change leads by 'gunning' a horse into them which causes the horse to dread lead changes and/or speed up when they know one is coming. When horses start speeding up on lead changes, I know they have been 'gunned' into them and they have been pulled on in a futile effort to maintain a slower speed. They are also usually gunned forward when they change in front only -- something that most of the horses 'trained' in this way usually do.
> 
> The idea that a curb is better or worse for a horse or that snaffle should always be the bit of choice is absurd. It is the person holding the reins and not the bit that causes ALL of the problems. Some horse prefer one bit to another and school better and easier in one kind of bit or another, but it is ultimately the hands on the reins that cause the problems. A good trainer can ride a well trained horse in a spade or halfbreed bit while a lousy rider will not find ANY bit, with or without shanks, that the horse trusts their hands while wearing it.
> 
> ...


Cherie can you post a picture of a hinged port bit with bushings? I borrowed a bit (actually she gave it to me) of a friend and its got a low square port and it flexes on each side of the port and it pretty much moves in all directions on the shank joint....I don't have a name for it, I just call it wormy!! Anyway my horse LOVES this bit, I can two hand ride him in it because it has so much movement and he's very very relaxed and soft in it. When I bought him I was told to use a regular round port correction bit and a cathedral bit for showing. He works 'ok' in the correction and I haven't put the cathedral on him in a few months, he is very light in the cathedral. He works so nice in the 'wormy' bit that its become my go to bit - lateral work is important to me so this bit works well.

Sorry went off topic......


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## alexischristina (Jun 30, 2009)

I was about to post, but Cherie said everything so well that I'm not sure I'd make any sense in comparison :lol: OP, it sounds like the tack isn't the issue so much as your riding. It sounds like you could really benefit from some good lessons, going back to the basics and getting that horse you used to ride back.


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## Foxtail Ranch (Mar 10, 2012)

Congrats, BSMS! That's a great step forward.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AnrewPL (Jun 3, 2012)

KylieHuitema said:


> He does the same thing with all bits. I use a bit with shanks yesterday, and he was just as terrible. Today I worked him in a snaffle, emphasizing on the whoa. Basically we did walk, stop, back. Again and again. He was good until I let him do a little trot and then stop. He got it in his mind to go go go. So anytime he would break from the walk to the trot, we would stop and back ALOT. Eventually when I would stop backing he would automatically try to walk on, and that was a big no no. So more backing and backing with lateral flexion added in.
> 
> At a certain point in time he would not get the point so I pushed him forward and pushed him around in little circles at a fast trot into a canter. After he got to stop, back, sidepass and do lateral work. After all that was done, I ended it there so it wouldn't continue to go downhill. I ended on a good note atleast.


Then this SHOULD raise the question of “what it is you are doing with the bit?”, not “what is the problem with bits?”


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

This is what I've been using with Mia, which sounds like what Cherie was writing about:



















Each side moves thru 45 deg of motion independent of the other side, and each side can also swivel out away from the face. If you look at in the horse's mouth, the initial pull on a right rein will put pressure on the right bar of the horse's mouth independent of the left side. Pull on both at once, and it acts like a traditional western curb. It looks to me like it has about 1.5 times in leverage, which is fairly mild for a curb bit.

If Cherie is talking about something else, I apologize and will be curious to see what she meant.

With Mia, I keep the curb strap on the loose side, but I don't know if that is a good idea. It seems to work OK as a direct rein, although I'm trying to get Mia used to one-handed riding, neck reining and listening to leg. If I bump on the reins, it gets her attention - but I'm trying to avoid doing that except for emergencies. If the only time I bump the reins is for a leg in the cactus, then it will be a very gentle approach to riding!

For the OP: Do you have any pictures or video? It might help give folks ideas.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

This is what I'm using, a different look but same action as mine, can you see all the joints on the port....it makes it very wormy. It collapses in your hand. Very very nice bit for my horse. He works very well in it.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Good post Cherie
In most of these things the problem is that there are holes (sometimes huge ones) in the horses training - and often the riders too if they haven't been taught how to properly correct these things or get them right in the first place


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I love any flexible bit, gives you a lot of feel and makes the horse happy. Both the bits Muppet and Bsms posted are wonderful bits.


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## 40232 (Jan 10, 2013)

Skyseternalangel said:


> How exactly do you woah your horse? If you are just hauling on his mouth, that may be why he doesn't work well in "any" bits.


Half halts.


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## 40232 (Jan 10, 2013)

Cherie said:


> This tells me all I need to know. When someone is doing flying lead changes using a direction change and 'figure 8s', I know the rider does not ride at a very high level and lacks the skill to teach 'collection'. They also usually try to change leads by 'gunning' a horse into them which causes the horse to dread lead changes and/or speed up when they know one is coming. When horses start speeding up on lead changes, I know they have been 'gunned' into them and they have been pulled on in a futile effort to maintain a slower speed. They are also usually gunned forward when they change in front only -- something that most of the horses 'trained' in this way usually do.
> 
> The idea that a curb is better or worse for a horse or that snaffle should always be the bit of choice is absurd. It is the person holding the reins and not the bit that causes ALL of the problems. Some horse prefer one bit to another and school better and easier in one kind of bit or another, but it is ultimately the hands on the reins that cause the problems. A good trainer can ride a well trained horse in a spade or halfbreed bit while a lousy rider will not find ANY bit, with or without shanks, that the horse trusts their hands while wearing it.
> 
> ...


He was taught collection when I originally taught him flying lead changes. I haven't used them in a while, so now he avoids the cue by speeding up. I'm reworking what my cue is by my bareback and bridleless riding


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## 40232 (Jan 10, 2013)

alexischristina said:


> I was about to post, but Cherie said everything so well that I'm not sure I'd make any sense in comparison :lol: OP, it sounds like the tack isn't the issue so much as your riding. It sounds like you could really benefit from some good lessons, going back to the basics and getting that horse you used to ride back.



I will not go back to lessons. Never. I have been riding for 10 years, and many of the older people that watch me ride, applaud my style and communication. I had an eventing trainer, but she up and quit without telling me, until I found out she moved states away. I know the basics. I know quite extensive knowledge on more advanced riding. A few weeks ago, I rode in front of a saddleseat trainer who trainers national level arabs, and she automatically offered me a job to train and show her arabs, purely because of how I ride. Last week a different lady watched me ride bareback and bridleless, and I soon got a phone call of her wanting me to work with her horse. I don't think it's my riding at all.


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## 40232 (Jan 10, 2013)

bsms said:


> This is what I've been using with Mia, which sounds like what Cherie was writing about:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If you look up HesUltimatelyFine on youtube, I have videos on there. I will have more recent ones soon when I get back from vacation.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I tell you what...If you said you were never going to lessons to my trainer, she would boot you out so fast and never let you on one of her horses. I have been riding with her since I was a toddler and showing for her for many years, and she still asks that when it's time to go to a show I come ride with her. Myself and another girl don't do it as often anymore because there's new riders, but it will never fade even if we won every major show on the circuit. 

That's all I really have to say...Still sounds quite arrogant to me...


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## alexischristina (Jun 30, 2009)

KylieHuitema said:


> I will not go back to lessons. Never. I have been riding for 10 years, and many of the older people that watch me ride, applaud my style and communication. I had an eventing trainer, but she up and quit without telling me, until I found out she moved states away. I know the basics. I know quite extensive knowledge on more advanced riding. A few weeks ago, I rode in front of a saddleseat trainer who trainers national level arabs, and she automatically offered me a job to train and show her arabs, purely because of how I ride. Last week a different lady watched me ride bareback and bridleless, and I soon got a phone call of her wanting me to work with her horse. I don't think it's my riding at all.



Wow, that's a bit ignorant don't you think? You can always improve, but coach as been riding for way longer than you have and she still takes lessons, Olympic riders take lessons, most trainers take lessons. And sorry, but I doubt you have 'extensive knowledge on more advanced training'. Perhaps you've read about it? But it's very very difficult to 'self teach' concepts like that...


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I'd like to know what qualifies as advanced riding to the OP.


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## alexischristina (Jun 30, 2009)

Alright well, I've watched some of your videos and not to sound rude but I don't see a rider with such impeccable skill that trainers are dropping out of the sky begging you to work their horses. I DO see a rider with an okay foundation who could use some guidance to fix a lot of her issues, but I certainly don't see perfection :wink:


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

KylieHuitema said:


> I will not go back to lessons. Never. I have been riding for 10 years, and many of the older people that watch me ride, applaud my style and communication. I had an eventing trainer, but she up and quit without telling me, until I found out she moved states away. I know the basics. I know quite extensive knowledge on more advanced riding. A few weeks ago, I rode in front of a saddleseat trainer who trainers national level arabs, and she automatically offered me a job to train and show her arabs, purely because of how I ride. Last week a different lady watched me ride bareback and bridleless, and I soon got a phone call of her wanting me to work with her horse. I don't think it's my riding at all.


And that, to me, is the end of this conversation. We now know everything we need to know about her - just like she knows everything she needs to know. Apparently, she's superior to every rider I've ever respected since they all have trainers, and their trainers have trainers, who also have trainers.....


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

I might add that I'm training my horse bareback and bridle-less because it does improve my communication with my horse. How and why? It's too darn easy for me to resort to harder than necessary hands, a less-than-perfect seat and more forceful cues than necessary when I'm allowed to have them! I had to swallow my pride and recognize that if I were a better rider, my communication and control with my horse would be a million times better with tack.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

KylieHuitema said:


> Half halts.


A half halt is NOT used to stop a horse. A half halt is used to re-balance the horse or to tell it that something new is coming.

If you use half halts to stop then you are doing it all wrong, dear.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Horses have a way of humbling the most arrogant riders. The more perfect one thinks they are, the further away they are from perfection. I'm out of here.
Cherie


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*KylieH* I'm really struggling to understand where you're coming from. I looked at your videos too and you seem to be an average rider and competing at beginner level. Nothing wrong with that.
So at what point has your ego gotten so big its blocked your common sense?
I'm sorry to be rude but for your own good you need a wake up call and a reality check
As a child & teenager I rode bareback a lot and also without reins, it was fun and it improved my balance but it didn't make me a great rider
You have a nice little horse but she looks to me to be behind your leg most of the time, she holds her head 'in frame' but lacks balance and energy so I'm thinking she isn't actually 'on the bit' and doesn't understand 'collection' because you're not riding her from behind into the bridle.
If you want to do lead changes then she needs to learn collection and you need to learn how to teach her and since you don't seem to know what a 'half halt is or why you use it then you still have a long way to go
The people you see riding dressage without a bridle have already put long hours of training into their horses in a bridle
No one is going to give you a job training and showing saddle seat as I cant see that you have the experience to do it, if people are offering you jobs based on this bareback stuff then I can tell you where they're likely to be coming from - the sort of dealers who want someone who's daft enough to get on any horse that comes on the yard regardless of the risks and you'll end up hurt
If you want to work with horses then drop your attitude, focus on one discipline and get some real training so you can ride with finesse and then you'll get some credibility.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Unfortunately I have seen a lot of trainers like that. They'll hire any brave teenager. Hell, I've even volunteered to be that teenager because I needed the cash desperately. I'd still do it now, but I would feel awful if anyone unknowing got swindled into doing it without realizing what the trainer was really wanting.


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## 40232 (Jan 10, 2013)

alexischristina said:


> Alright well, I've watched some of your videos and not to sound rude but I don't see a rider with such impeccable skill that trainers are dropping out of the sky begging you to work their horses. I DO see a rider with an okay foundation who could use some guidance to fix a lot of her issues, but I certainly don't see perfection :wink:


I forgot to mention those videos are quite dated and I don't remember what's on there. I won't go back to "basic" lessons. The saddleseat training would be UNDER A TRAINER. I have ridden under a basic lesson teacher for 2 1/2 years until I out grew what she had to offer. Then I went to a NH trainer for probably 4, and she still helps me when I ask. I went to a 4H leader for 3 years, then onto a HJ trainer for 3 months at the most (she was TERRIBLE), and then an eventinf trainer for 2 months until she lost my respect. Sorry to sound so "ignorant" but I hate hate hate when people act like I'm inexperienced. 

To clarify*
I will not go back to a trainer for a single, large reason. They always break my relationship with my horse. Every single one. I won't risk that anymore. In 3 days I will have access to a computer, and I may choose to expand on what I'm trying to say, or end up deleting my account.


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## 40232 (Jan 10, 2013)

I forgot to add one more thing. I'm doing this whole bareback/bridleless thing to regain my "feel" for my horse. I hate bringing up personal details, but for a while I didn't ride much since I was going through a period of depression/family problems/self harm/etc. I'm doing this to regain my confidence and happiness. I'm sorry if I sounded ignorant, but I'm trying to become a successful rider again after having such a hard time, and having so many failures. I know I will never be a top level rider or a world renown trainer, but I want to take what I can get.


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## alexischristina (Jun 30, 2009)

If you're trying to become a successful rider again the best thing to do is find a good trainer, not a horrible trainer, not someone you don't get along with, but a _good trainer that works for you._


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"I'm doing this whole bareback/bridleless thing to regain my "feel" for my horse."

Then I wish you luck and hope it works out well. Sometimes it does help to drop lessons and focus for a while on the horse. A truly good instructor will help you connect with a horse, but finding a good instructor can be tough in some places. Good luck!


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## LouieThePalomino (Dec 15, 2012)

KylieHuitema said:


> I forgot to add one more thing. I'm doing this whole bareback/bridleless thing to regain my "feel" for my horse. I hate bringing up personal details, but for a while I didn't ride much since I was going through a period of depression/family problems/self harm/etc. I'm doing this to regain my confidence and happiness. I'm sorry if I sounded ignorant, but I'm trying to become a successful rider again after having such a hard time, and having so many failures. I know I will never be a top level rider or a world renown trainer, but I want to take what I can get.


Um going bareback and bridless to regain "feel"? Um I dont think it works that way. You need a trainer, people who think they are the best horse rider and trainer in the world really irritate me, there is no way that you can know SO much about them if you have been riding only ten years. My trainer has ridden for fifty and competed in almost every event and she still refuses to say that she knows everything. Tack should not be inhibiting you riding or feel. I see them as communication devices. I can feel my horse respond through a thick roping saddle and pad. He can feel me when I tense up, I can feel when he tenses to go into another gait or tense when I give him a command. Just look at the highly trained bridle horses, they are not in those big bits because it is more forcefull and gives the rider more leverage, they are trained to respond to it and they know how to carry and hold it in their mouths. If you think that tack is the main cause that you dont have feel, than you are very far from being an experienced rider. Im sorry if I sound cold or rude here, but how can you expect to rise to the top and get better if you dont need a trainer?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 40232 (Jan 10, 2013)

LouieThePalomino said:


> Um going bareback and bridless to regain "feel"? Um I dont think it works that way. You need a trainer, people who think they are the best horse rider and trainer in the world really irritate me, there is no way that you can know SO much about them if you have been riding only ten years. My trainer has ridden for fifty and competed in almost every event and she still refuses to say that she knows everything. Tack should not be inhibiting you riding or feel. I see them as communication devices. I can feel my horse respond through a thick roping saddle and pad. He can feel me when I tense up, I can feel when he tenses to go into another gait or tense when I give him a command. Just look at the highly trained bridle horses, they are not in those big bits because it is more forcefull and gives the rider more leverage, they are trained to respond to it and they know how to carry and hold it in their mouths. If you think that tack is the main cause that you dont have feel, than you are very far from being an experienced rider. Im sorry if I sound cold or rude here, but how can you expect to rise to the top and get better if you dont need a trainer?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I said I DO NOT expect to rise to the top. My number one priority with my horse is our relationship, hence why I focus on morr NATURAL methods that sticking a bit in his mouth. I believe all basic cues should require no tack if it is so "natural".


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## 40232 (Jan 10, 2013)

SorrelHorse said:


> Unfortunately I have seen a lot of trainers like that. They'll hire any brave teenager. Hell, I've even volunteered to be that teenager because I needed the cash desperately. I'd still do it now, but I would feel awful if anyone unknowing got swindled into doing it without realizing what the trainer was really wanting.


I am getting no money from it. I am doing it purely for experience. Who wouldn't hop at the chance to widden their experiencr with different types of horses with different personalities? 

I wanted to do the saddleseat because I miss showing, and I clearly don't have a show quality horse right now to do it on. She is offering me to ride on beautifully trained Arabs. Duh I would jump at that.

The other woman I have known since I started riding. She is injured and can't ride. She wants me to get on her horses and make him work, and push him around since he is bossy.


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

KylieHuitema said:


> I said I DO NOT expect to rise to the top. My number one priority with my horse is our relationship, hence why I focus on morr NATURAL methods that sticking a bit in his mouth. I believe all basic cues should require no tack if it is so "natural".


And throwing a person on a horse's back _is_ natural? That's like saying we developed opposable thumbs so that we could text (there is actually a condition called "texter's thumb" now that develops when the tendons in your thumbs get inflamed from too much texting).

When we decided to use horses for riding, certain methods were developed and have since been continually improved and perfected (I'm not necessarily saying they are perfect, but the goal is to get them ever closer to perfection and great advances have been made). So, frankly, using a bit because it provides clarity of communication between two animals that do not speak the same language _is_ natural in the realm of domestication, since that's where we find ourselves when we decide to ride a horse.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I think maybe you need to find yourself and then perhaps you'll be able to connect better with your horse
Bad hands cause pain not bits
You're going to have to ride these saddleseat horses in a leverage bit on a very short rein so you should really be working on how light your hands are and not riding bridleless


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

jaydee said:


> I think maybe you need to find yourself and then perhaps you'll be able to connect better with your horse
> Bad hands cause pain not bits
> You're going to have to ride these saddleseat horses in a leverage bit on a very short rein so you should really be working on how light your hands are and not riding bridleless


Jaydee, how do you put things so eloquently and matter-of-factly? I just had a "no duh" moment - how can you possibly learn to ride correctly with tack if you refuse to use it? That's like trying to learn to play an instrument without ever picking one up!


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## LouieThePalomino (Dec 15, 2012)

if a lot of other people can ride a horse in a bit and saddle and do fine than I think its you who are causing the problems. And I agree with what is said above, if you want a NATURAL expirience, why dont you go out and start hunting horses and eating them 
Its only natural. Dont you think theres a reason why we kept tack around for hundreds of years and still use it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kotori (Jun 18, 2012)

KylieHuitema said:


> I said I DO NOT expect to rise to the top. My number one priority with my horse is our relationship, hence why I focus on morr NATURAL methods that sticking a bit in his mouth. I believe all basic cues should require no tack if it is so "natural".


It isn't natural. Nothing about us around horses is natural. A look into what would be 'natural' would be us chomping on horse legs. All the Natural Horsemanship means is work with your horse's reactions instead of against them, which can be done bitless/bridleless and bareback, or with a bit and saddle. 

My relationship with horses is my priority too, but I ride with a saddle and a bridle. I figure as long as it doesn't hurt him and I can feel then why not use them?


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## 40232 (Jan 10, 2013)

jaydee said:


> I think maybe you need to find yourself and then perhaps you'll be able to connect better with your horse
> Bad hands cause pain not bits
> You're going to have to ride these saddleseat horses in a leverage bit on a very short rein so you should really be working on how light your hands are and not riding bridleless


I know how to use a double bridle. I was taught that by a trainer.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Yet you refuse to go to lessons...

I'm out, have fun guys.


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## 40232 (Jan 10, 2013)

It's official though, I am withdrawing from this site. Heck, I'll withdrawl from competing too since if I'm just an average rider, there is no way I could possibly have a chance at winning. And if my horse is so bad, heck maybe I will eat him. This started out as me sharing a victory I had with my horse, and some of you completly ruined it, even after I appologized for my ignorance.


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## Shoebox (Apr 18, 2012)

KylieHuitema said:


> It's official though, I am withdrawing from this site. Heck, I'll withdrawl from competing too since if I'm just an average rider, there is no way I could possibly have a chance at winning. And if my horse is so bad, heck maybe I will eat him. This started out as me sharing a victory I had with my horse, and some of you completly ruined it, even after I appologized for my ignorance.


 
No need for a dramatic overreaction.

we're not trying to be rude. It's hard for riders who have been riding for dozens of years to see a thing like this, where every arrow is indicative of a problem being avoided, and offer sound advice and have it go completely unheeded, even to the extent that you're making excuses for mistakes pointed out. 

You can learn a LOT from the people on this site. I know this personally from experience - I joined this site knowingt absolutely NOTHING. The people here are extremely knoledgeable, and it would do ANY rider good to listen to the tips given by someone looking outside in. It's hard to see the fault in your own practice, but it's much easier for someone with an unbiased opinion.


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## Northernstar (Jul 23, 2011)

KylieHuitema said:


> It's official though, I am withdrawing from this site. Heck, I'll withdrawl from competing too since if I'm just an average rider, there is no way I could possibly have a chance at winning. And if my horse is so bad, heck maybe I will eat him. This started out as me sharing a victory I had with my horse, and some of you completly ruined it, even after I appologized for my ignorance.


Oh my gosh! I'm sitting in utter surprise here....Kylie, I loooved your wonderful victory and as I don't have much time to be online at the moment, just skipped to the last page. Whatever has transpired between pg. 1 and this page, let it go - I'm not going to read them.... Simply enjoy your horse in the beautiful way you have discovered


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## 40232 (Jan 10, 2013)

Northernstar said:


> Oh my gosh! I'm sitting in utter surprise here....Kylie, I loooved your wonderful victory and as I don't have much time to be online at the moment, just skipped to the last page. Whatever has transpired between pg. 1 and this page, let it go - I'm not going to read them.... Simply enjoy your horse in the beautiful way you have discovered


Thank you! That's what I am only trying to do.


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## alexischristina (Jun 30, 2009)

Kylie, your victory was awesome, nobody is or was denying that however it isn't the be-all and end-all. It wasn't your victory, but your arrogance that got people steaming.


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## 40232 (Jan 10, 2013)

alexischristina said:


> Kylie, your victory was awesome, nobody is or was denying that however it isn't the be-all and end-all. It wasn't your victory, but your arrogance that got people steaming.


And it was everyone else's rudeness and accusations that got me steaming


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## alexischristina (Jun 30, 2009)

I saw very few accusations and very little rudeness until you started making excuses, honestly. This forum is full of people who want the best for every other rider, and who tend to look at the 'what ifs' and the scary parts of riding. Almost everyone here is well aware that there is ALWAYS more you can learn, and there is always something that can go very very wrong in even the 'safest' situation. Everyone on this thread was just trying to open a path for constructive conversation.


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## 40232 (Jan 10, 2013)

alexischristina said:


> I saw very few accusations and very little rudeness until you started making excuses, honestly. This forum is full of people who want the best for every other rider, and who tend to look at the 'what ifs' and the scary parts of riding. Almost everyone here is well aware that there is ALWAYS more you can learn, and there is always something that can go very very wrong in even the 'safest' situation. Everyone on this thread was just trying to open a path for constructive conversation.


And here you are, opening an argument again.


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## alexischristina (Jun 30, 2009)

Opening an argument? :lol: I'm not arguing, I'm defending all the people you're accusing of being rude (myself included). 

I, for one, would hate to see you leave this forum if only because my first couple of weeks here were spent 'arguing' with other members about things I now know I was totally in the wrong about AND looking back on those threads, _nobody was disrespecting me in the slightest._

I've learned so much here, much more than I did in the few years I was riding under horrible trainers, or without a trainer completely. People are helpful, they give good solid advice and on the whole care very much about each and every other rider on here, regardless of how much their views differ. I'm sure every person on this thread WOULD be unhappy to see you go.


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## 40232 (Jan 10, 2013)

alexischristina said:


> Opening an argument? :lol: I'm not arguing, I'm defending all the people you're accusing of being rude (myself included).
> 
> I, for one, would hate to see you leave this forum if only because my first couple of weeks here were spent 'arguing' with other members about things I now know I was totally in the wrong about AND looking back on those threads, _nobody was disrespecting me in the slightest._
> 
> I've learned so much here, much more than I did in the few years I was riding under horrible trainers, or without a trainer completely. People are helpful, they give good solid advice and on the whole care very much about each and every other rider on here, regardless of how much their views differ. I'm sure every person on this thread WOULD be unhappy to see you go.



Well I'm done commenting on this thread, since it's made a turn for the worse. Sunday I will be back in my country, working with my horse again, where I will most likely present questions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dreamer23 (Jul 4, 2013)

i found bit less bareback very helpful when i brought my horse 10 years ago he was only young but had been very mistreated and was very aggressive if anyone tried to saddle him or ride him one day i got on him without the saddle or bridle and that's when his attitude towards being ridden started to change he went from hating it to loving it became a completely different horse and was no longer aggressive at all. wasn't a case of saddle fitting he hated having girths done up and they used to his legs up and all sorts of horrible things while saddling him and they were very harsh on the mouth they would yank his mouth constantly so he didn't know what a leg aid was he relied on the bit so i took it away and he started to listen to leg aids.


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## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

KylieHuitema said:


> I had a sudden realization tonight. Saddles and bridles get in the way of the communication between a horse and rider. Over the past 3 days, me and Toofine haven't had anything between us, other than a neck rope to guide him. He has picked up on how to walk, trot, canter, collect, sidepass, back and trot diagonally quicker than he did with a saddle and bridle. We have had terrible problems with rushing jumps and getting the right canter leads, but all of that was fixed when the saddle and bridle was removed. He did FLYING LEAD CHANGES with ease when it is usually a fight. He calmly jumped, slow and collected. Even when I went to get on him, he trotted up to me, which is a first in all the years I've owned him. This. Is. Amazing. I have FINALLY found an effective way to communicate with him!


Good for you. If you have mastered how to communicate with him with a natural method, then I think its great! would love to see videos to see how you did.


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## Faylool (Dec 27, 2012)

*Bareback*

Im going to be doing the bare back with rope halter around the corner here, in the corral and mainly for this refine,ent thing, finding a good seat and have better balance. In general for people who ride a lot I have the feeling a good fitting saddle is easier on te horses body tan being ridden bareback. For this reason I won't feel wrong saddling up for trail rides and things


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I rode my big gelding bareback for hours and he preferred that to a saddle. When riding bareback one should pinch the butt cheeks to raise the pelvic bones. Do that for an hour each time and one develops a pretty nice tush.


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## Faylool (Dec 27, 2012)

If I pinch my butt cheeks my horse will speed up! It's how I trained her. It's funny really because a guy was going to show me how to ride bareback and you know guys are cocky sometimes and he got on and gripped her sides and she started out pretty fast so he gripped harder and she speeded up. We were in a corral so he stops her and says he can't ride without gripping.ok so if I have to ask too many times to go my inner thighs hare sore! My Paint does that she has more whoa than go. So I prefer to ride my TWH because she is the more go than whoa. At 60 one more sharp aching muscle is not desirable!


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Are you pinching your cheeks only or including your thigh muscles? Gotta isolate the cheeks.


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## Faylool (Dec 27, 2012)

I'll try it and see what she does.


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## Ninamebo (May 25, 2013)

OP good job, not many people can do that with their horses confidently, I'm glad you had the confidence to give it a try!


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## BuildDaBunny (Feb 16, 2013)

Amazing!


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## RhinestoneCowgirl03 (Jul 4, 2012)

A good fitting saddle and a bit/hackamore/whatever that you like is never a bad thing. And it is entirely possible to be successful with these tools. BUT if going completely nekked works best for your situation, there's nothing wrong with that either. It's nice to have a breakthrough, isn't it?


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## 40232 (Jan 10, 2013)

RhinestoneCowgirl03 said:


> A good fitting saddle and a bit/hackamore/whatever that you like is never a bad thing. And it is entirely possible to be successful with these tools. BUT if going completely nekked works best for your situation, there's nothing wrong with that either. It's nice to have a breakthrough, isn't it?


I have actually just decided to start riding in a rope halter over the winter. It will save me time warming up a bit, and hopefully get him to relax more when riding.. I probably will just ride bareback too, just to keep my seat warm!


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

When pinching the butt cheeks it tightens the upper thighs. My horse would elevate and do a beautiful floaty trot, like he feet didn't touch the ground. My muscles lasted about 10 strides and so did the floaty trot.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

Don't ever allow other people to put you down for looking for more contact and relationship with your horse.

Look at what can be done.

And by the way this horse is 100 days from the wild and part of the Mustang challenge.


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## 40232 (Jan 10, 2013)

Marecare said:


> Don't ever allow other people to put you down for looking for more contact and relationship with your horse.
> 
> Look at what can be done.
> 
> ...


I'm not going to let it get to me anymore. All that matters is me and my horses progress, not what others think. 

I actually want to compete in the mustang challenge eventually. Looks like such a learning experience. 

I'm actually surprised there is comments still going on this thread :lol: totally surprised me


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## Godgirl (Jul 11, 2013)

Congrats! Good for you two!


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## megstwoIDpal (Oct 11, 2013)

how long have you been riding like this?? it's possible that if it's only been a short time that your horse has become more RESPONSIVE to the different pressure instead of softer...if thats the case, you'll notice that the response youre getting now will start to dwindle


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

if that's the case, you'll notice that the response you're getting now will start to dwindle
Not necessarily. Horses often become lighter rather than heavier if the rider is consistent in the timing of the release.


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## iRide Ponies (Aug 10, 2012)

alexischristina said:


> Saddles are there to distribute the weight of a human over the horses back. Riding bareback centers all of your weight on a considerably smaller portion of your horses back and while some horses may be "okay" with bareback riding, others aren't.


Thank you! My pony mare is part of the *others aren't* group. Sure, you can ride her bareback. Slowly. At a walk. For no more than 15 minutes. 

But try to work her properly, trot, even go up a little hill, they'll be hell to pay.


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## tzoidbk (Nov 26, 2013)

My horse tends to go FAST when I put on a neck rope but he turns nice and when I put on his neck rope one day, I thought to myself, "maybe we should try barrels like this" And sure enough, we got our fastest time at home with just a neck rope. I was so proud! Glad everything is good for you too!!


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