# Frustrated with coach



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

My old dressage teacher used to really get under my skin. She would just say things that really made me feel like a total dunce sometimes. I always felt like I had to be so careful about what I said, and that I was just walking on eggshells. But, she was a really good instructor. A really difficult person to get along with, but a very good person to learn from. she insisted endlessly on HOW the horse was going, not how fast I could progress up the levels. She always had the horse's best interests at heart and would not let me continue a lesson if the horse was even slightly "off". So, I learned a lot, but eventually, I just couldn't hack it anymore and left of taking lessons with her. I haven't seen or heard from her in 7 years.

At the hunter jumper barn were you taking individual or group lessons? I find that when people take group lessons that a lot of minor postion faults get kind of overlooked by the instructor because they cannot take the time to get to the details and pursue it til it's really down pat.

It sounds like you may have to kind of swallow your pride and keep an emotional distance from this person to be able to make it there. If she has a lot to offer as an instructor, then it's worth it. If not, then work for money and buy lessons from the best instructor you can find.


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## kimj (Jun 15, 2010)

Thanks tinyliny,

Yes, it is group lessons at the hunter/jumper barn, so you're right about that - lots of stuff probably got missed and I didn't know what I didn't know. I'm also not used to the individualized attention of private lessons either, plus I'm probably sensitive to the fact that other riders are in the ring with the other coach (the owner) and sometimes they're pretty high level dressage riders, so I'm already maybe being overly sensitive about my 'beginner-ness'.  

Thanks for letting me know about your experience as well. I do think my coach is very good, very aware of the technical details, and very much with the horse's best intereat at heart so a little sensitive that way herself - so I think you're right and I just need to get over it and learn all I can. Thanks for pointing that out for me as I'd definitely lost sight of that while I've been whining.  I texted her as well and we both apologized to each other again, so at least the air is clear in that regard.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

That sounds like a very "adult" way of doing things. Private lessons are a lot more challenging . YOu will learn so much, though, you'll be astounded.
Don't worry about the others, they have been riding longer than you.
Do some reading if you can, on dressage, it will help you understand what she is talking about better. Dressage is much written about and there are many excellent books on it. I read Charled DeKunfy, Mary Wanless and Philippe Karl, amoungst others, when I started into dressage. I still pick up those books and reread them and always get something good out of them, something new.

That is what makes dressage so fascinateing; you can't learn it all at once , it takes many years. I am a real low level rider, but when I compare myself to where I started, well . . ., I've come a long way just to get to this low level.
If you have a chance, take a video of yourself now, before you make many changes in your riding style, then in a year, do it again and compare them. You will be amazed!


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## Shasta1981 (Nov 12, 2010)

If I could give you a hug, I totally would. I hate that feeling where you well-up and just want to smack yourself out of it. Makes me feel like that woman in "A league of Their Own." I think you're putting too much pressure on yourself, to be honest. As tinyliny said, dressage is a sport that is measured in years, not by lessons or weeks. Also, your position in dressage is very different from a hunt seat, so its not that you aren't a good rider from your previous training, you are learning something new. I moved to dressage in the last two years from low level eventing (which even has a dressage phase!!) and had a really tough time with the longer leg and sitting straight. I felt kind of silly after my first lesson with my dressage coach. 

But regarding your coach, it sounds like you do get along and you do like her. If she yells at you and belittles you that is one thing, but nitpicking is kind of part of the game. Small changes can make a big difference. 

As for your work ethic, I say as long as you are getting all of your responsibilities taken care of, she has no room to say anything. I would let her know that you can pick up the pace if thats what she really wants, but that the quality of your work product may suffer. 

I get those e-mail thingys from Jane Savoie (which I love by the way, you should sign up if you haven't already), and one of her messages was about not feeling inferior to other "better" riders because they are working on their own problems, too. A grand prix rider can get just as frustrated and upset over their tempi canges as you can over your trot. 

Don't let this one lesson get you down. =)


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## Wancata (Dec 6, 2010)

Also keep in mind that every trainer is different. Your dressage trainer may look at your riding and think, "Gosh! This is basic English Riding!" But her Basic English riding is still just a little dressage based. And as Shasta said, it is very different than hunt seat.

I had a trainer a while back that I rode with for about 2 years. She was always a little critical and a little (looking back) demeaning. She would say to me in one breath that though I may feel I am regressing, she was just reinforcing the basics. And then in the next statement, tell me I was a basic rider and couldn't do more. She insisted I use a martingale for safety, and then was the first to bash my horse's neck when the underside developed funky from months of false frames. I spent a year jumping cross rails preparing for show season and when it rolled around, she told me I wasn't ready. She said there were still basic riding skills that I hadn't made second nature yet. I decided then, if I have been training with someone for a year and I am still not "ready" to even attempt a flat class for experience, I need a new trainer. 

I am now working with a trainer I adore. And when she saw me do the basic riding skills that were supposed to be "second nature," she laughed. She couldn't understand where I had gotten those ideas. 

I've cried in lessons before. Don't sweat it. If you feel you are learning and its worth the money, stick with it. Otherwise, there are other trainers I am sure would treat you better for your time.


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## Zimpatico (Nov 5, 2010)

I only skimmed the responses, so I apologize if I am repeating something someone else has said...

As another returning adult rider, I can tell you that trying to do both hunt seat AND dressage is torture. If you really, really want to make the switch to dressage, you might have to commit to it 100%. I absolutely could not do both. Doing hunt seat reinforced my old habits, and undid any new dressage techniques that I was trying to learn. 

Adults truly do have an uphill road to climb compared to the kids when learning new physical skills. Our brains simply don't have the fresh pathways for new motor skills that the kiddies have. 

I've been in the situation you are in and the very best advice I can give is to make a choice and focus your attention on one or the other. Good luck!!


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Wancata said:


> Also keep in mind that every trainer is different. Your dressage trainer may look at your riding and think, "Gosh! This is basic English Riding!" But her Basic English riding is still just a little dressage based. And as Shasta said, it is very different than hunt seat.


Yes! You nailed it.

Kimj, you are not not not doing everything wrong before and this training is fixing you. You are simply doing things differently. I find it frustrating for you that your trainer is not able to address things to you in this manner. (I assume this trainer realizes you have been/are taking hunter lessons too.)

Can you sit down and talk to her about how frustrating it is for you to be told you are wrong all the time? Tell her you love it when she helps you learn new things to but the constant 'you are wrong' thing makes it so frustrating that you find it hard to learn.

If the barn owner is happy with your cleaning job I would let what she says go in one ear and out the other. Maybe make a joke of it. "Off to make sure every spec of manure is cleaned out of Dobbin's paddock, today I plan to do it record time, see you in three hours" followed by a laugh.

I would guess most of us adult females have had a tear welling up moment at a riding lesson before. Sometimes our bodies (hormones) make it next to impossible to not burst into tears over what seems to trivial to the rest of the world.


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## kimj (Jun 15, 2010)

Ahhhhh, thank you all!! What a nice set of comments to read today! Thank you for telling me I've not been doing it wrong all this time! Phew. That's what she's not getting - how frustrating it is to basically hear that all the time, so it's like telling me I've wasted the last two years worth of lessons. She doesn't seem to realize it's also been a lot of dealing with confidence issues on just being on/around the horses as well, since I didn't grow up with them at all. Often people who grow up working with horses don't realize what it takes for an adult to step into the horse world with no experience, both in terms of ground work and riding.

Yes, I think she thinks her 'basic English' is the only correct way and pretty much that my other coach hasn't been teaching the basics properly, if at all, so there is a lot of implication that I've been doing it wrong all this time. Funny thing is, my other coach's students win all the time at the shows so she must be doing something right. The dressage coach though says a lot that even in the hunter ring the basic English between fences should be the same whether it's hunter or dressage, which I get, but none of the students at my other barn go completely vertical the way she has me doing. I think she'd be horrified if she went to my other barn and saw the basic English seat there. So what do you think of that though - many of you mentioned how different the hunter and dressage seats are, but she's saying the basic flat seat should be the same so it shouldn't be an issue except for when going over fences...? That's why I thought it would be okay to stay at both places, at least while I'm not doing true dressage work...

I'm hoping I won't have to choose because there's so much more flexibilty at the other barn, but thank you, Zimpatico, for letting me know it may not be possible and it's not just me... I think I prefer dressage though because I don't have to deal with the whole fear issues of jumping past 2 feet (lol), plus I love all the technical details of dressage, but for now the dressage barn is a lot more expensive so I can't ride there nearly as much as I can the other place.

Anyway, thanks again. You've all made me feel much better and I appreciate the understanding and responses.


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## Shasta1981 (Nov 12, 2010)

_So what do you think of that though - many of you mentioned how different the hunter and dressage seats are, but she's saying the basic flat seat should be the same so it shouldn't be an issue except for when going over fences...?_

Yes and no. I agree with her that jumping is dressage with fences, because during the 99% of your time that you aren't airborne you are working on balance and connection. Your jump saddle puts you in a totally different place than your dressage saddle does. In huntseat you need to be more forward to stay over your center of gravity, your stirrups are shorter, you use 2 pt and half seat often where in dressage you need to sit upright, long leg, deep in the seat and communicating with your seat. So the principles are the same but the delivery is very different.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

three quarters of my current students are adult. One also takes lessons at a hunter barn, which I have no problems with at all. They really are two different disciplines with very different approaches. They both are equally exacting, but in very different ways.

Just be aware that not all coaches are equally good at explaining the fine objectives or even how to achieve them. Communication skills are not common in coaches, unfortunately.

My big focus is to explain to my student WHY you do what you do. So many of them tell me they never have been told WHY and now it makes total sense.

Post some videos!! Then you may end up with a dozen free instructors!!! LOL!


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

The majority of students with my dressage trainer are adults. And most are older than you (and some were total beginners when they started). I don't know... To me it does sounds you a little bit over-reacting, but then her saying everyone but you can ride the horse is somewhat not right (actually quite rude IMHO). My trainer always says "horse can do it, and YOU can make it to do it". And I find it very encouraging. Also "basic english" IS dressage. Not the fancy one, of course. May be sit down with her and talk over your concerns would be the best way to go. If it won't work out you can always look for different trainer.


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## BoxT (Jul 17, 2011)

You didn't really state what your goals are for your riding. Are you looking to start showing and then eventually show at the higher levels? Or are you looking to enjoy your time on a horse and improve your skills while you do it? 

Not every instructor is for every rider. Your goals need to match those of your instructor or everyone is frustrated.


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## huntrjumprjenn (Jul 26, 2011)

kimj,
I recently did a transition from the Hunter world to the Dressage world. I spent ten years in the Hunter world and did very well with my great mounts, so I couldn't have been but so bad, haha. My dressage trainer would beg to differ though. I have been told on many occasions that everything I have ever learned is completely wrong and incorrect and will ruin a horse and a rider. 
To answer your question: People, horse trainers especially, have a very hard time grasping the concept that yes, just maybe someone else out there in the big world might be correct too. Your trainer may believe that what you've been taught is a crime above all, but it is very unlikely. It is not so much what they say, but how they say it. I have been at my new barn for seven months now, and just today was told that everything I have learned about riding, she (my trainer) had learned by the time she was four. Comments like these are unnecessary. Yes, they are two different disciplines, but it does not mean that either are wrong in totality. I understand your frustration and am in a very similar positiion, hence the slight rant. Hope things get better.


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## kimj (Jun 15, 2010)

Thanks for the additional comments. I appreciate them all and will keep them in mind. huntrjumprjenn, wow that was a nasty comment from your trainer! Sorry for your frustration as well, but I'm glad you can at least understand where I'm coming from - and that you got a chance to rant a bit.  

As for my goals, well I started out just thrilled to be able to ride at all as it had been a childhood dream. I didn't care at all if it was even English or Western and it just so happened that the coach I met happened to be an English hunter/jumper coach. Now as I've gotten more into it, I'm wanting to get into it more and more and I'm realizing I really like the idea of dressage (also because jumping scares me), but I've not gotten so far as to make actual goals. I've not really even thought about it like that yet - I'm still just thrilled to be riding at all; however, now that you have me thinking about it, I would love to do more than 'just' ride. I'm definitely perfectly capable of basic riding at this point (even if my trainer was implying otherwise!) so don't need lessons for that anymore, but if I were to really allow myself to 'dream' (lol), I think I'd go as far as I could in the dressage world. Unfortunately that's not very far for me financially-wise (too bad it's such a crazy expensive sport!), but I'd love to see how far I could go with it anyway. Thanks for bringing that part of it up as well. Very good point to keep in mind.


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## Wancata (Dec 6, 2010)

kimj said:


> As for my goals, well I started out just thrilled to be able to ride at all as it had been a childhood dream. I didn't care at all if it was even English or Western and it just so happened that the coach I met happened to be an English hunter/jumper coach. Now as I've gotten more into it, I'm wanting to get into it more and more and I'm realizing I really like the idea of dressage (also because jumping scares me), but I've not gotten so far as to make actual goals. I've not really even thought about it like that yet - I'm still just thrilled to be riding at all; however, now that you have me thinking about it, I would love to do more than 'just' ride. I'm definitely perfectly capable of basic riding at this point (even if my trainer was implying otherwise!) so don't need lessons for that anymore, but if I were to really allow myself to 'dream' (lol), I think I'd go as far as I could in the dressage world. Unfortunately that's not very far for me financially-wise (too bad it's such a crazy expensive sport!), but I'd love to see how far I could go with it anyway. Thanks for bringing that part of it up as well. Very good point to keep in mind.


First, you can be an amazing natural rider with skills to compete with the best, and not ever show. You don't have to show if you don't want to. And not showing doesn't mean you aren't a good rider! So you can be as awesome at dressage as you can be with a goal of, say, never falling off. Or, learning one advanced skill a month. Whatever it is, it just has to be fun. If you're not having fun, whats the point of showing anyway?

Second, there are tons of open shows out there that are cost effective and laid back. I know Ive seen a few dressage shows in my area that weren't super high rated or anything. Im sure your coach would be willing to do those with you. And if not, if she only takes students to rated stuff, well, then you pass on that one. No big deal.

Just a funny story.... I was saying how every trainer is different, and that one thing is not right or wrong, everyone just does things differently. I was explaining this to my bf one day, that some coaches say leg back and some say at the girth. Some might have you lean more back and some more forward, its not right or wrong, there are just ways that I would do it over others. None of it is "fundamentally" wrong..... Then one day, I heard a trainer, who was getting a pretty good penny an hour from her students tell her class that, "In Western riding you must use your leg to drive the horse forward. But, in English riding, you dont use your legs at all. In English, you just use your hands to stear."

Hahahahaha, what?!?!? I looked at my bf and was like, OK. Now THAT is fundamentally wrong!

Just a funny story I had to share. Until you are hearing things like that, things that make you sit on your horse and say to yourself, "that made no sense," you are doing just fine with both your coaches. Learn what you can from each.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Kimj, any thought of looking for a new dressage trainer? One that understands that different is not wrong, just different. One that is willing to work with you instead of making you feel like an idiot for not getting it the first second?


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Alwaysbehind said:


> Kimj, any thought of looking for a new dressage trainer? One that understands that different is not wrong, just different. One that is willing to work with you instead of making you feel like an idiot for not getting it the first second?



I have to agree with this idea.

While it is not unusual for coaches ( any discipline) to be picky but they should have developed SOME people skills.

They are in business and no matter what business you are in, your customers are your clients, not to be treated rudely or with disdain.

Even if your coach is a world class dressage coach, that is no excuse. There are better ones out there that have the skill to teach, be diplomatic and still get results.

To me this one you have falls short.


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## newhorsemom (Jun 20, 2008)

I agree with Always and Spyder - maybe you should start looking at other coaches and/or barns for your lessons. Not only are you spending good money, but you mentioned that this is a childhood dream to ride and you should be enjoying it and coming away from each lesson with something positive and wanting to come back and achieve more. Even on bad days you're still learning! A good trainer should be able to help you move forward in your riding both physically and mentally! 

Also, I think you should go and watch a local or schooling dressage show. You might be surprised by how fun and low key they are and chances are you will want to give it a try. I bet you would have a blast!


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## kimj (Jun 15, 2010)

Wancata said:


> Just a funny story.... I was saying how every trainer is different, and that one thing is not right or wrong, everyone just does things differently. I was explaining this to my bf one day, that some coaches say leg back and some say at the girth. Some might have you lean more back and some more forward, its not right or wrong, there are just ways that I would do it over others. None of it is "fundamentally" wrong..... Then one day, I heard a trainer, who was getting a pretty good penny an hour from her students tell her class that, "In Western riding you must use your leg to drive the horse forward. But, in English riding, you dont use your legs at all. In English, you just use your hands to stear."
> 
> Hahahahaha, what?!?!? I looked at my bf and was like, OK. Now THAT is fundamentally wrong!
> 
> Just a funny story I had to share. Until you are hearing things like that, things that make you sit on your horse and say to yourself, "that made no sense," you are doing just fine with both your coaches. Learn what you can from each.


That is a funny story! Those poor students, imagine all the bad habits they'll have to 'unlearn'! LOL

As for a new dressage trainer, I live in a pretty small town so this is the only dressage barn around and it's a small barn - only her and the owner are the coaches. I think I can work through it with her, but I'm going to come at with a different perspective now after knowing what you all think about what is correct and how much that can vary, etc. I will try to make the adjustments for her barn when I'm there but I won't feel bad about it anymore, like I have been doing it wrong. A different kind of confidence from me I'm sure will change the nature of my lessons, if you know what I mean. Lately I've been starting to question the whole point, like maybe I'm just not meant to do anything more than trail ride or something since I clearly have no 'natural' ability - which I'm not thinking anymore thanks to you all! Thank you! Not saying I have any particular talent, but I'm coming away from all this with at least me (if not her) respecting myself more for taking on the challenges of learning two disciplines at the same time, at an age which is not easy in terms of muscle memory, fear, and all that, so I will make sure to expect some respect like that from her as well. If she can't appreciate all that, then we'll part ways.

Thank you all again. I wasn't sure if I should post or not about this as I didn't want to come across as whining, but I'm glad I did. You've all been very supportive.


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## Opus (Jan 3, 2011)

Zimpatico said:


> As another returning adult rider, I can tell you that trying to do both hunt seat AND dressage is torture. If you really, really want to make the switch to dressage, you might have to commit to it 100%. I absolutely could not do both. Doing hunt seat reinforced my old habits, and undid any new dressage techniques that I was trying to learn.


This is my experience as well. Except for me, it was my hunter equitation coach pulling his hair out over my corrupted forward seat. 

While it's definitely hard, it's not impossible. Especially if you don't intend to show seriously. There's definite benefits to training in other disciplines. But you have to be aware that your progress in the dressage ring (and possibly hunter ring) might be slowed. Just make sure your instructors know what your doing, and ask if they have any advice on making the transition between the two less difficult. 

Some random thoughts: 

-- I'm 32 and I just got back into riding after a 10-year hiatus and things seem to upset me much more now than they did back when I first started riding when I was 19. If the horse is slow or bouncy, if the horse spooks ... if my trainer says something and I take it personally. My trainer and I get along very, very well, but even I have days when I think she hates me. And the horse hates me. And the weather hates me ... And the next lesson, I'll be fine. Maybe it's hormones, maybe it's stress from work, or whatever. But it passes, usually by the next lesson. I'm actually making an effort now to not dwell on bad lessons, unless they continue for more than a couple of weeks. Thankfully, it never has.

-- About your goals: I write down my goals every 6 months. If they've changed, I share them with my instructor. In fact, after I sent her my goals in June, she made all her lesson students do the same. I think it's important for students/riders to know what they want to accomplish so they're not floundering around. And I do it every six months because my goals can change and I not even be aware of it unless I think about it. Plus, it could help your instructors cater your lessons better. For me, I want to show eventually, just not right now. As such, my trainer throws in some dressage lessons and wants to take me out into the cross country field soon for my lessons which suits me just fine. 

Good luck!


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## kimj (Jun 15, 2010)

Thanks, Opus! I will definitely continue to keep this in mind. I am finding myself frustrated also at my hunter/jumper lessons sometimes as I'm hearing the dressage coach in my head at the same time, which is causing me to over-think things and I do that enough being an 37-year-old adult female! LOL So much of it I now realize is me just having to shut up the voice in my head (whoever's it is!). I just have to figure out if that's possible with such different opinions about what's right!

I realized yesterday though at my hunter lesson that I have to allow myself to switch to the hunter seat when I'm there and not feel like I'm doing it wrong as I'm so used to the dressage coach saying it should be the same, but that's just not working there. Probably largely because the horses aren't used to it either. I did that yesterday and had a pretty good lesson. In fact, the hunter coach said just yesterday, "You've got to realize how far you've come!" - which of course was a compliment, but also that negative Nellie voice piped up in my head saying "how awful must I have been if this is far?!", which is ridiculous because of course we have to start from somewhere and I can't keep comparing myself to the kids I'm surrounded with who started around the same time as me and are now flying over the jumps, but it's just not the same situation at all.

Anyway, thanks again for the encouragement and understanding!


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## Cacowgirl (Feb 19, 2011)

From your posts, it sounds like you are riding lesson horses & don't have your own? Has your H/J trainer ever mentioned your going to a show w/some of the other students? Maybe just a flat class,see if you like the showing experience. Do you ever ride Western? you might like that, too. I ride in English saddles, Western saddles & Austrailin Saddles, I jump trail obstacles whenever I can, & use dressage always to position my horse, no matter what saddle I'm in. Knowledge seems to be what you're after right now, & experience w/different horses is invaluable. But someday you might have your own horse, & then you can become part of a team w/a real deep relationship. Best of luck to you!


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