# Haunches in...WHAT??



## xxGallopxx (Dec 1, 2011)

Ok, I was searching stuff on the internet about getting leads, and someone said, get your horse's haunches in! What does that mean? (I fell pretty dumb for not knowing this lol but we learn something new every day right?)


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## Klassic Superstar (Nov 30, 2009)

No no! This will teach your horse to go into the canter a. Unbalanced, b. Not correct. At least this is not what i have ever done. I usually ask my guy to ho into the canter in a corner so he can balance and use my inside leg nd put my outside leg a bit back. He has issues getting his left lead and right now is awful at the canter cause he's had time off.


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## xxGallopxx (Dec 1, 2011)

Everyone has different methods and opinions on leads...I just want to know what in the world it means!


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

xxGallopxx said:


> Ok, I was searching stuff on the internet about getting leads, and someone said, get your horse's haunches in! What does that mean? (I fell pretty dumb for not knowing this lol but we learn something new every day right?)



Maybe you can post the article link.

I am sure there is an explanation there.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Now where was that other thread that dealt in great length about how to get a good canter depart . . .(noises of rummaging in cyber closet . ..)


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Haunches in means just that, haunches pushed in towards the rail.


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## xxGallopxx (Dec 1, 2011)

Yeah, I figured that out...Thanks waresbear


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

I am suspecting one would use the haunches in to ask for a lead departure to exaggerate the cue. For a heavy one-sided horse or for a rider that has weight shifting problem, I suppose a "haunches in" would facilitate a lead departure. My trainer had me use it for a flying lead change when the horse switched in front but was cross firing in the back. Technically not a true haunches in, but it did shift his weight to other side & he switched behind.


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## Mike Zimmerman (Oct 30, 2011)

Klassic Superstar said:


> No no! This will teach your horse to go into the canter a. Unbalanced, b. Not correct. At least this is not what i have ever done. I usually ask my guy to ho into the canter in a corner so he can balance and use my inside leg nd put my outside leg a bit back. He has issues getting his left lead and right now is awful at the canter cause he's had time off.


Could you please explain the difference between supporting inside leg and putting your outside leg back and asking for the canter and supporting inside leg and putting your outside leg back and asking the haunch to step to the inside, besides the increase of speed going into the canter?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Mike Zimmerman said:


> Could you please explain the difference between supporting inside leg and putting your outside leg back and asking for the canter and supporting inside leg and putting your outside leg back and asking the haunch to step to the inside, besides the increase of speed going into the canter?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I am supposing the article the OP read has that answer.


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## xxGallopxx (Dec 1, 2011)

Spyder said:


> I am supposing the article the OP read has that answer.


No actually, he was quoting someone else about that...I didn't read anything about that.


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

Love to see the article, but I would never swing just the hauches in to ask for a canter depart. All I'd be training the horse to do is go crooked on every depart. I hate when any article isolates just one part of the horse for a particular cue when all parts are needed.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

waresbear said:


> Haunches in means just that, haunches pushed in towards the rail.


 
Actually, I think it means the opposite; haunches pushed toward the inner side of your curve or circle.


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## xxGallopxx (Dec 1, 2011)

tinyliny said:


> Actually, I think it means the opposite; haunches pushed toward the inner side of your curve or circle.


I think that's what she meant to say  And to those of you who are interested in seeing the article...I searched and searched but I couldn't find it!! ):< Sorry.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

Mike Zimmerman said:


> Could you please explain the difference between supporting inside leg and putting your outside leg back and asking for the canter and supporting inside leg and putting your outside leg back and asking the haunch to step to the inside, besides the increase of speed going into the canter?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


i'd also like to know this


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## xxGallopxx (Dec 1, 2011)

christopher said:


> i'd also like to know this


Like I said before, I didn't post that, Klassic Superstar did....


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Yup sorry got that wrong, haunches in would mean into towards the center of the arena. But for the isolated, exaggerated lead departure, you would want to push the weight over the outside.


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## Mike Zimmerman (Oct 30, 2011)

My point xxgallopxx was that Klassic superstar doesn't understand that the mechanics of what he/she is saying is exactly what they said not to do. It would be my advice to her/ him that they should work on freeing up the hindquarter by doing some haunches in, maybe that left lead would come a little easier. 

Don't worry about getting a perfectly straight departure, figure out how to get the correct lead first, then you can work on perfecting it .

Doing a haunches in puts the horse in the same shape as riding them in a circle or corner bend. No you don't want the full bend of a haunches in, but the mechanics are the same.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Mike Zimmerman said:


> My point xxgallopxx was that Klassic superstar doesn't understand that the mechanics of what he/she is saying is exactly what they said not to do. It would be my advice to her/ him that they should work on freeing up the hindquarter by doing some haunches in, maybe that left lead would come a little easier.
> 
> Don't worry about getting a perfectly straight departure, figure out how to get the correct lead first, then you can work on perfecting it .
> 
> ...



Not what I would do.


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## xxGallopxx (Dec 1, 2011)

Everyone has their own opinion on how to get right leads...Please respect each others opinion....


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

Mike Zimmerman said:


> My point xxgallopxx was that Klassic superstar doesn't understand that the mechanics of what he/she is saying is exactly what they said not to do. It would be my advice to her/ him that they should work on freeing up the hindquarter by doing some haunches in, maybe that left lead would come a little easier.
> 
> Don't worry about getting a perfectly straight departure, figure out how to get the correct lead first, then you can work on perfecting it .
> 
> ...


I see what you're saying. I use leg yield and shoulder-fore to that same end. But whatever the setup, I always straighten for a few steps before asking for the depart. Some horse's just learn way too fast how to do things sloppily. (is sloppily a word?)


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

MyBoyPuck said:


> I see what you're saying. I use leg yield and shoulder-fore to that same end. But whatever the setup, I always straighten for a few steps before asking for the depart. Some horse's just learn way too fast how to do things sloppily. (is sloppily a word?)


If it isn't, it should be!


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

xxGallopxx said:


> Everyone has their own opinion on how to get right leads...Please respect each others opinion....



Sorry ......................


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I use 'haunches in' a lot. I have mentioned doing it on this forum. It is called 'Travers' as a dressage movement. It is a training maneuver as it is not called for in tests. It is mostly a stepping stone for more advanced maneuvers like a half pass and flying lead changes, particularly those done on 1, 2, and 3, stride intervals. 

The 'Travers' calls for the horse's head to be bent to the inside. The horse is held out with the rider's inside leg while the outside leg moves back and ask for the haunches to come in the width of the track. The outside hind foot falls in line with the inside front foot. 

'Renvers', which I have found little use for, calls for the horse to bend to the outside 'around' the rider's outside leg while the horse's head is slightly to the outside. The quarters are on the track. The horse's inside hind foot falls in the same track as the outside front. The tracks are the same as for a 'shoulder in' but the horse has the opposite bend in it and the haunches are actually being pushed out. Like I said, I have not found much use for this as opposed to using the Travers maneuver a lot.

Here is a website that shows illustrations of these maneuvers. Basic Dressage Movements: Leg Yield, Haunches In & Out, Renvers, Travers.

What using this exaggerated position does for lead departures is it teaches a horse to 'strike off' with the hind foot as opposed to hopping up in the front end while departing in the front first. 

Most reining trainers are now using this method to teach lead departures. Many use it to an extreme. I prefer to use it until the horse has learned to depart without hopping in front. Then, once they have this down pat, I ask for the lead departure on a straight line and only push the quarters in if the horse starts getting sloppy. If you want a collected lead departure with the horse driving up underneath itself and departing hind foot first, you have to teach it to bring its hind quarters to the inside when striking off.

If this kind of body control is accomplished, you will NEVER have a lead problem and will get the correct lead (the one asked for) anywhere in a straight line or a circle and will even get it as a 'counter canter' on a circle. You will have 100% lead control.

The reason novice riders need a circle to get a correct lead on a green horse is because the horse has to be on a circle to get the kind of 'full body bend' that teaching 'haunches in' gets anywhere without a circle.

I have not seen any horses that did not learn correct flying lead changes on a straight line if they have been taught obedient haunches in exercises first. 

If you intend to work on the advanced maneuvers in either a Western horse or a Dressage horse, you should learn how to do this maneuver.


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## xxGallopxx (Dec 1, 2011)

Spyder said:


> Sorry ......................


It's ok, I just don't want this thread to turn into a war and then have an administrator lock it.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

xxGallopxx said:


> It's ok, I just don't want this thread to turn into a war and then have an administrator lock it.



Just take whatever opinion that agrees with your taste and go with it.


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## Mike Zimmerman (Oct 30, 2011)

Cherie, I wish I could elaborate as well as you. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

Cherie said:


> . . .
> If this kind of body control is accomplished, you will NEVER have a lead problem and will get the correct lead (the one asked for) anywhere in a straight line or a circle and will even get it as a 'counter canter' on a circle. You will have 100% lead control.
> 
> The reason novice riders need a circle to get a correct lead on a green horse is because the horse has to be on a circle to get the kind of 'full body bend' that teaching 'haunches in' gets anywhere without a circle.
> ...


It's interesting that I disagree with about everything here-- not to be critical!-- because I find that serious riders usually have similar basics. But I think the haunches-in is more of a problem than a cure. The "body bend" of a horse on the circle is, to me, entirely different from one bending along a wall. The circle is a forward, "straight" movement, while haunches-in is a sideways- movement.

A canter departure in that position, even slightly, is a sign of something wrong, to me. 

So now my problem is, I wonder why!? Why is the straight or from-the-shoulder-fore position canter departure my aim? WHY do I dread the "crooked" haunches-in position? This thread has raised a few questions, for which I am grateful!

(I taught flying changes simply by riding figure-8s, and reducing the number of strides of trot until there were none. It's quite possible they were not correct!)


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Beling said:


> It's interesting that I disagree with about everything here-- not to be critical!-- because I find that serious riders usually have similar basics. But I think the haunches-in is more of a problem than a cure. The "body bend" of a horse on the circle is, to me, entirely different from one bending along a wall. The circle is a forward, "straight" movement, while haunches-in is a sideways- movement.
> 
> A canter departure in that position, even slightly, is a sign of something wrong, to me.
> 
> ...



Well said.


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## Rule of Reason (Feb 11, 2010)

MyBoyPuck said:


> Love to see the article, but I would never swing just the hauches in to ask for a canter depart. All I'd be training the horse to do is go crooked on every depart. I hate when any article isolates just one part of the horse for a particular cue when all parts are needed.


I believe this is a misunderstanding of the definition of crookedness. Please see this link: Straightening the Crooked Horse ... - Gabriele Rachen-Schoneich, Klaus Schoneich, Chris Belton - Google Books, which has an excellent explanation. In case that doesn't work, here is a quote I pulled out of that page: "Crookedness is characterized by the center of balance being displaced forward and to the right (in a right-handed horse)." They go so far as to say that a horse can't be crooked without being on its forehand, which I haven't heard before but am willing to believe. If you look at any drawing of a crooked horse in this or any other equine anatomy book, it looks nothing like the smooth, balanced curve throughout the horse's entire body that you would see in a haunches-in, shoulder-in, or any other dressage movement. 

All horses are naturally crooked and must be trained to overcome it. When I was first cantering my young horse, she often picked up wrong lead. My instructor said it was because she was crooked, and the haunches-in exercise was invaluable at curing it. We probably used it for a few weeks.

I don't understand the statement that a circle is straight. A correct circle is ridden with bend to the inside, the smaller the circle the more the bend.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Rule of Reason said:


> I believe this is a misunderstanding of the definition of crookedness. Please see this link: Straightening the Crooked Horse ... - Gabriele Rachen-Schoneich, Klaus Schoneich, Chris Belton - Google Books, which has an excellent explanation. In case that doesn't work, here is a quote I pulled out of that page: "Crookedness is characterized by the center of balance being displaced forward and to the right (in a right-handed horse)." They go so far as to say that a horse can't be crooked without being on its forehand, which I haven't heard before but am willing to believe. If you look at any drawing of a crooked horse in this or any other equine anatomy book, it looks nothing like the smooth, balanced curve throughout the horse's entire body that you would see in a haunches-in, shoulder-in, or any other dressage movement.
> 
> All horses are naturally crooked and must be trained to overcome it. When I was first cantering my young horse, she often picked up wrong lead. My instructor said it was because she was crooked, and the haunches-in exercise was invaluable at curing it. We probably used it for a few weeks.
> 
> I don't understand the statement that a circle is straight. A correct circle is ridden with bend to the inside, the smaller the circle the more the bend.


Interesting.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

tinyliny said:


> Actually, I think it means the opposite; haunches pushed toward the inner side of your curve or circle.


Thank you! I was reading through before replying hoping someone had corrected this!


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

Rule of Reason said:


> I don't understand the statement that a circle is straight. A correct circle is ridden with bend to the inside, the smaller the circle the more the bend.


Straight in horse terms means the hind feet fall directly into the tracks of the front feet. When a horse has proper bend throughout the body on a circle, that is exactly what happens. If that is not happening, the rider is most likely riding just the horse's neck and not achieving the proper bend throughout the body. That make sense?


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Cherie, I'm not sure what the dressage tests where you are, are like, but here in Australia, tranvers is certainly used in tests, from elementary level. We ride shoulder in down the long side, 10m circle at B/E, and out into travers back to the corner.


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

Kayty said:


> Cherie, I'm not sure what the dressage tests where you are, are like, but here in Australia, tranvers is certainly used in tests, from elementary level. We ride shoulder in down the long side, 10m circle at B/E, and out into travers back to the corner.


Wow, really? Our tests are nowhere near that advanced. I do think travers comes into play until 2nd or 3rd level here! The hardest thing in our training test is a stretchy circle at the trot. Now I see why you ride so well Kayty!


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Just realised I had a typo, I meant travers, not tranvers. 
The new elementary tests are quite complicated, the jump from novice to elementary used to be fairly simple, but the new tests are getting very technical and there is no way you can 'fake' them like you could in the old tests. 
For example, in one of the elementaries, you have to canter down the centre line, simple change at X, and continue down the centre line. Bloody hard to do dead straight down the CL in front of a judge, you can't fake that like you can with a simple change between circles!


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Kayty said:


> For example, in one of the elementaries, you have to canter down the centre line, simple change at X, and continue down the centre line. Bloody hard to do dead straight down the CL in front of a judge, you can't fake that like you can with a simple change between circles!



Can't have the haunches leading with this movement.


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

So the question is, do you teach a green horse to pick up the correct lead by over-doing the aids with the intent of refining them somewhere down the road when they are more educated, or teach them to do as if they were already well schooled with the idea that teaching a horse an avoidance technique will shoot them in the foot somewhere down the road? 

How's that for a run-on sentence?


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Exactly Spyder. And that is where you see the most problems in this movement. They come around the corner to A, and keep the quarters to the left and bend around their left leg, to get the simple change in. At which point you see their left leg swing back, the haunches swing to the right and they pick up canter again, haunches to the right. 
Makes this fault VERY obvious when you're going down the CL!


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

MBO, in relation to your question, and regarding the simple change on the centre line, its as obvious as a pimple on a backside when people teach a horse to canter off the outside leg and bring the haunches in for the transition when you ask them to walk-canter on a straight line!


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## drop_your_reins (Nov 4, 2007)

I was always taught (as a beginner rider) to do haunches in (only I didn't know it was haunches in) to get canter leads. It helps set the horse up for the correct lead (as someone mentioned?) by encouraging them to push off from the outside hind leg, rather than pop up in front. I think as a beginner rider, I was taught this way (A. so I had a better chance of getting the correct lead) so I could understand the difference it makes (in any horse) to SET UP for the canter. 

I just wanted to chime in here, because it is not only a good tool for the green horse (and this is how I trained my mare, though her canter has gotten wretched since she hasnt been worked regularly) but for the green rider. The rider will notice how much more easily (and smoothly) the canter can come from the halt, walk, or trot by using a haunches in set up when compared to other means of asking for the canter.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Yep, its a good way to do it if you are not aspiring to be riding movements that are judged on straightness, as in dressage. 
Its not going to hurt anyone, swinging the quarters in to essentially force the horse onto the correct lead, but you'll never get a good score in an official dressage test. 
Which is not the aim for many riders anyway


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## drop_your_reins (Nov 4, 2007)

Kayty said:


> Yep, its a good way to do it if you are not aspiring to be riding movements that are judged on straightness, as in dressage.
> Its not going to hurt anyone, swinging the quarters in to essentially force the horse onto the correct lead, but you'll never get a good score in an official dressage test.
> Which is not the aim for many riders anyway


I do ride dressage and have gotten good scores in training level (on a gelding who is a 2x WC in Ladies and Junior Exhibitor in Western Pleasure).. I forget what my exact scores were but somewhere between 68-72%, placed 2,3,4 (out of at least 10 each, 3rd out of 18) at an A rated show. 

Straightness can come with time and repetition, and maybe for some it is a bad way to learn (because it creates habit) but it was good for me, and I was able to fine tune my leads with the base I learned from haunches in. It is also good for the green horse who has trouble picking up leads, or even maintaining good balance at the canter because it sets them up to take off from the correct hind leg. Repetition will only build muscle memory and strengthen those balancing muscles, and once the muscle is built you can worry about fine tuning your take offs and making them straighter. 

I'm more of a big picture kind of gal, not really fussy with the details.. If you can communicate "the big picture" to the student or the horse step by step, the details usually fall into place by repetition and practice. If they don't, then once you have (the student, or the horse) focusing on the big picture _[getting correct leads, getting a balanced takeoff, getting it in a timely fashion]_ and understanding what it is you want from them, then you can move onto the details _[making it straight]_..


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

double post


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

The OP made it very clear she didn't want any debate so I will drop out of this thread and harvest my cows.


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## xxGallopxx (Dec 1, 2011)

Kayty said:


> Yep, its a good way to do it if you are not aspiring to be riding movements that are judged on straightness, as in dressage.
> Its not going to hurt anyone, swinging the quarters in to essentially force the horse onto the correct lead, but you'll never get a good score in an official dressage test.
> Which is not the aim for many riders anyway


Wow you know your stuff! Thanks for all the info! I'm a western rider, so getting a good score on a dressage test really doesn't matter (; One poster said, ''nooo don't teach your horse to do haunches in to help get leads!!'', and everyone else is saying, ''I do it all the time and it doesn't matter if you aren't in dressage...etc.'' And I'm going to be doing funshows and western speed events and trail riding with him, (and a small chance that we'll do WP) so getting a little crooked take off won't really matter (; At this point, I just want to get his leads down lol. Thanks for your help everyone! Now, I'm going to check out books from the library, or look on the internet to see about how to teach him this  Unless some very kind poster would like to help me. *hint* haha. And Spyder--It's ok for a debate, I just wanted people to disagree respectfully, and not fight...I've searched this forum a lot and there are too many threads that got out of control and locked. Thanks for understanding


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

xxGallopxx said:


> And Spyder--It's ok for a debate, I just wanted people to disagree respectfully, and not fight...I've searched this forum a lot and there are too many threads that got out of control and locked. Thanks for understanding


That is no a problem now or in the future. I will not be responding to any of your threads/posts. I am sure others can help.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I have not been back to the computer for quite a while. This has gone a long ways from my post about using the Travers maneuver quite often.

I have to respectfully disagree that is causes a horse to go crooked. I have known a number of high level riders that teach it to every horse they ride and their horses as well as my horses go very straight. 

When you teach a horse to bring its quarter to the inside, you do not let them do that on their own. They are trained to only bring their quarters in when you ask them to. It is a very important stepping stone to a half pass where the horse stays parallel to the long side. It is almost impossible for a horse to pick up the wrong lead when taught this way. Like any other maneuver you teach a horse, once the horse has been taught a correct lead departure, you remove, one by one, each of the aids you have used until you have the one you want to use on the finished horse. When I do clinics, I call it 'trading aids'. You may use 3 or 4 or even more aids to get something done in the early stages of training. Then, one by one they can be dropped or traded for an aid that is more acceptable for a finished horse. I can give you many examples of how this works with other maneuvers you teach a horse.

They need to learn the proper lead departures driving with the outside hind leg first. It is the only way I know to correct a horse that someone has allowed to do an unacceptable hop-up-in-the-front-end lead departure. It also corrects horses that charge into a lead because they have been under-collected and over-cued. 

It is one of the best ways I know to CORRECT a horse that is crooked at the canter. 

I know he is a Western Reining trainer, but Craig Johnson teaches that "If you can control every part of the horse independently, you have the tools in place to make that horse travel perfectly straight at every gait and through every maneuver. If you can bend him every way there is to bend, you can make him be straight."

So, I absolutely reject that using this position as a teaching tool then makes a horse just take off and do it on his own and will start him traveling crookedly, especially in flying or simple lead changes on a straight line.


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## xxGallopxx (Dec 1, 2011)

Wow Cherie, I would just love to attend one of your clinics!! You're only in Oklahoma too, so I think I may be able to make it sometime  Thank you so much for all the info!


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

great post cherie. you sound sooo much like one of my trainers. he always says you only need to control 5 parts of a horse and you will be able to do anything. right shoulder, left shoulder, right hip, left hip, and the front.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

gypsygirl said:


> great post cherie. you sound sooo much like one of my trainers. he always says you only need to control 5 parts of a horse and you will be able to do anything. right shoulder, left shoulder, right hip, left hip, and the front.


 
What about the hind end :shock: unless we just erase that bit.

I have always, always been taught you need control of the hind end before you can progress to lateral movements, and to do haunches in, you need control of the entire horse, not only 5 parts of it.


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

right hip and left hip means hind end !


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

gypsygirl said:


> right hip and left hip means hind end !


 
No need to use an exclamation.

Hind end is hind end.

You and I have different ways to go in to canter,

Personally I would never teach my horse to canter with its haunches in... seems a very bizzare concept to me, and I've never heard of any dressage tutor I've used, clinics I've seen advise it.. and I've been to a lot.


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

sorry i didnt realize using an exclamation point was offensive...??

i actually have never used haunches in to go into the canter, i just thought cherie had a good post.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

DuffyDuck said:


> No need to use an exclamation.
> 
> Personally I would never teach my horse to canter with its haunches in... seems a very bizzare concept to me, and I've never heard of any dressage tutor I've used, clinics I've seen advise it.. and I've been to a lot.


I've seen the method used to teach the horse. But sadly I still see it in the pleasure ring. An exaggeration to get the correct lead.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

mls said:


> I've seen the method used to teach the horse. But sadly I still see it in the pleasure ring. An exaggeration to get the correct lead.


 
I just find it a bizzare, incorrect way to teach... correct riding makes a horse canter properly. I think I said on a different canter thread the first two times my mare was cantered under saddle, any canter was good canter, to get the correct lead I over emphasised my inside bend, inside leg and used the boards of the school to avoid drifting. I had to use that twice, she twigged on and we do our canter transitions how i would describe as normal... straight :S


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## xxGallopxx (Dec 1, 2011)

DuffyDuck said:


> I've never heard of any dressage tutor I've used


I'm assuming you're an english rider and I can see why you don't like the whole haunches in to help with leads part... I'm a western rider who does not do dressage, so I think haunches in will help my horse get a good take off. You never know till you try!  I'll try it when he's ready...Right now I'm working on getting him soft and responsive, and doing lots of transitions and figure eights...I'm keeping him on his toes lol. I'm only walking and trotting him for the time being, but after he's softer and more responsive to his snaffle, I'll do some more work at the lope. Thanks for your help everyone!  Especially Cherie, Kayty, and DuffyDuck!


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

xxGallopxx said:


> I'm assuming you're an english rider and I can see why you don't like the whole haunches in to help with leads part... I'm a western rider who does not do dressage, so I think haunches in will help my horse get a good take off. You never know till you try!  I'll try it when he's ready...Right now I'm working on getting him soft and responsive, and doing lots of transitions and figure eights...I'm keeping him on his toes lol. I'm only walking and trotting him for the time being, but after he's softer and more responsive to his snaffle, I'll do some more work at the lope. Thanks for your help everyone!  Especially Cherie, Kayty, and DuffyDuck!


 
I am indeed 
I don't know much about western riding, I'll be completely honest.. but wouldn't you want to keep your horse straight too? Give it a go by all means, but then you have something else to worry about, trying to stop your horse cantering in a bannana shape lol.


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## xxGallopxx (Dec 1, 2011)

DuffyDuck said:


> Give it a go by all means, but then you have something else to worry about, trying to stop your horse cantering in a bannana shape lol.


Wouldn't he straighten himself out while he cantered? Hmm :think: I guess I'll have to find that out!  He can canter on a straight line, so maybe that will help?


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

waresbear said:


> Haunches in means just that, haunches pushed in towards the rail.


Away from the rail, to the inside of a circle.
ETA:Never mind, I just read the others posts


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

xxGallopxx said:


> Wouldn't he straighten himself out while he cantered? Hmm :think: I guess I'll have to find that out!  He can canter on a straight line, so maybe that will help?


And if he doesn't, and some horses don't.. what do you do then?
If he canters straight as soon as he gets in to canter, I am pretty sure he can get in to canter without putting his haunches in. 
Just thought, my trainers other half breeds, and breaks and trains and rides QH etc and I have never seen him turn haunches in when he canters! Asked him about it, and say why would he?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I think a lot of horses do canter with their haunches in , kind of "crabbing" along. The body shape of the horse , with the rear being wider than the front, makes it such that they often canter with the rear offset slightly to one side. In dressage the rider wants to keep the horse centered and straight and this may require the use of shoulder fore to move the front end so that it is right in front of the hind, instead of to the outside. The way a horse canters unmouted and mounted can be a bit different . Un mounted he can canter with his hind end offcentered from the front, but carrying the rider, his way of moving must change.

In fact, that's really what a lot of the correct riding is about; having the horse move in a way that is best for him when carrying the weight of the rider, so that he will remain strong and sound.


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

Okay, I had to do some studying, and I think the "training canter", using the haunches in, should be used very, very sparingly, because it is in effect *unbalanced *and avoids teaching the horse to "carry" the rider; and the goal in training (mine anyway) is to improve the horse's way of going. In re-training, remedial work, "whatever works", I understand that! But you want to avoid future problems too, as much as possible.​ 
Anyway, I found this on the site classicaldressage.co.uk​ 
W*hat are the Biomechanics of the Crookedness**?*
The hind legs are not working with equal phases of thrust and carry. The left hind steps forward, but it doesn't do so far enough because he is carrying his pelvis at an angle. This means that the left hind doesn't reach as far forward as it should. It stays behind the vertical for too long and it thrusts more than it carries. It isn't supporting the left shoulder so the horse places to much weight on the left front leg and with it leans into the left rein. 
The angle in the pelvis that causes the left hind not to step under enough has repercussions in the right hind leg in that it pushes it out to the right, from under the mass of the horse. This brings the horse's right hip in advance of his left one and puts him in a incorrect haunches in position to the right. The right hind is neither thrusting nor carrying, but idling off to the side. This can result in the muscles on the left side of the horses back becoming more developed that those on the right and cause the rider's seat to slide off the right side of the saddle. Very often a rider then tries to compensate for this sliding by leaning over to the left, twisting in the waist and collapsing over the left hip. In turn this causes the left hand to be carried higher and further back than the right. This over use of the left rein blocks the left hind leg even more. It steps even shorter, making the imbalance even worse. The horse becomes heavier and heavier in the left rein as a result of the excessive thrust and lack of support from the left hind leg. 
W*here do we begin when we start to straighten the horse?*
With the rider - a crooked rider cannot straighten a crooked horse!​


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

beling, that is interesting. So, that would be a canter to the right, right?


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## xxGallopxx (Dec 1, 2011)

DuffyDuck said:


> If he canters straight as soon as he gets in to canter, I am pretty sure he can get in to canter without putting his haunches in.


The whole point of this post was to find out if having his haunches in would really help him get his leads a little easier. He can canter without his haunches in...I wouldn't want to teach a horse to canter with their haunches in, I'm just curious to see if it'll help him get his right lead


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## xxGallopxx (Dec 1, 2011)

Beling- I'm going to respectfully disagree  Just because you swing your horse's haunches in for the take off at the canter, doesn't mean that all his gaits (I hope that's the right spelling for using that word like this) are going to be crooked. And I'm working on figure eights, serpentines and circles to get him soft and flexible, which will help with his leads too. I would also only be putting his haunches in while cantering to the right. Here's my plan: Put his haunches in for the take off every time, if it helps with his right lead then I'll do it MOST of the time, but not every time, rewarding him every time he gets it without his haunches in. And just keep doing it less and less. Does that sound ok?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I think your plan sounds good. REally, experimentation shouldn't be undervalued in horsemanship. One doesnt' have to go by the book all the time. If you experiment, and find that what the book says rings true for you, then you will know that it's probably one of those things that has been true about riding for ages, regardless of disciplline. But, people who wrote the books on horsemanship experimented to see what worked best. WE can too!


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

xxGallopxx said:


> Wouldn't he straighten himself out while he cantered? Hmm :think: I guess I'll have to find that out!  He can canter on a straight line, so maybe that will help?





DuffyDuck said:


> And if he doesn't, and some horses don't.. what do you do then?
> If he canters straight as soon as he gets in to canter, I am pretty sure he can get in to canter without putting his haunches in.
> Just thought, my trainers other half breeds, and breaks and trains and rides QH etc and I have never seen him turn haunches in when he canters! Asked him about it, and say why would he?





xxGallopxx said:


> The whole point of this post was to find out if having his haunches in would really help him get his leads a little easier. He can canter without his haunches in...I wouldn't want to teach a horse to canter with their haunches in, I'm just curious to see if it'll help him get his right lead



Okay okay okay! My turn! :lol:

If I were a horse... I would not want to canter with my bum to the inside and my shoulder on the rail.. that just feels all wrong! Though it is harder.. I think keeping straight would FEEL better. Plus I could really stretch out and keep track of my feet better.

But then again I'm not a horse!

I think a horse should learn to canter with a slight bend rather than one end straight and one end in. The bend helps them with the lead, and they aren't being all out of whack. Haunches in is an advanced maneuver in my book. It's a lot for the horse to keep track of. 

But again, my opinion and I'm not a pro at cantering under saddle.. but I've found letting my horse be straight and bending at the canter when I lunge him works best for him.


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## xxGallopxx (Dec 1, 2011)

Tiny: Thanks!



Skyseternalangel said:


> I think a horse should learn to canter with a slight bend rather than one end straight and one end in. The bend helps them with the lead, and they aren't being all out of whack. Haunches in is an advanced maneuver in my book. It's a lot for the horse to keep track of.


Sky: I like your thinking! lol yes, I do agree it is kind of an advanced maneuver, but I think it really depends on how you do it. I don't know if this will make sense or not but I'm not going to be doing ''haunches in'' but I am...I'm going to push his bum into the inside some, but I'm not going to exaggerate his shoulder being out..Make any sense? With horses, it's all about trial and error. If my horse DOES straighten himself out (knowing him, I have a feeling he will but of course I'm gonna say that haha) then all is well, and I continue training him. But if he DOESN'T I'll have to find another way to help him get his leads...


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Yeah those pesky leads... but I see your point! Maybe some exaggeration would help him understand which lead he needs to be on and then over time, it can become less obvious?



xxGallopxx said:


> but I'm not going to be doing ''haunches in'' but I am...I'm going to push his bum into the inside some, but I'm not going to exaggerate his shoulder being out..Make any sense? With horses, it's all about trial and error. If my horse DOES straighten himself out


Haha yeah.. thanks  As a horse, I would approve this way  :lol:


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## xxGallopxx (Dec 1, 2011)

Skyseternalangel said:


> Yeah those pesky leads... but I see your point! Maybe some exaggeration would help him understand which lead he needs to be on and then over time, it can become less obvious?
> 
> Haha yeah.. thanks  As a horse, I would approve this way  :lol:


That's what I was thinking!  Thanks for your help everyone!


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