# Rescue Goat



## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

so we went to the horse sale last night and there was a little nanny goat caughing and such so we decided to spend 25$ and take the poor gal home. she seems to be pregnant, probably around 15 weeks i would assume, when the vet comes out to check mom's horse we are going to get her checked too, we decided to name her Asia, today we picked up some grain for her, and she seeems to be on the skinny side so she LOVED that, as well as we gave her some cucumbers and squash, we don't really know anything about goats, but now we are cramming down research, right now she's in the 8x12 pen out back, with a decent sized dog house and tarps keeping the sun and rain off of her, but she will move over to the horses after she kids, and after we move the horses to a goat safe pasture in a couple of weeks.


----------



## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

pictures of Asia


----------



## Stakie (Jul 11, 2011)

She is lucky she found you. =3


----------



## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

thank you so much! i went out there earlier today, and it feels like those ligaments have went away so i think i may have guessed wrong and she may be closer then we thought, her udder seems tight, but idk about shiny, i don't want to shave her udder and tail and cause her more stress since she isn't used to us or being shaved. so i think we'll just leave her and make sure to clean her up really good after. she is eating but not a whole lot it seems, she was laying out there on the ground heaving, but i didn't see any brown discharge so i don't think she's THAT close yet.


----------



## RoosterDo (Feb 11, 2009)

Awww she looks so young, too bad she is pregnant  I would recommend shaving her tail but you can leave the udder the tail just gets sooo icky and you will have to clean her every day in order to keep it clean. I also recommend you get her CAE tested when the vet comes out. Make sure she gets plenty of alfalfa after the babies arrive and mine always get oatmeal and molasses as a treat after birthing.


----------



## JustDoIt (May 24, 2011)

Asia is a Pygmy goat I have 4 goats ( 2 are pygmies)! Seems like your doing well..a few things you might want to add in beer diet are loose minerals and a salt block. Grass hay is needed more in the winter, in the other months they tend to eat forage. Btw- my goats LOVE saltine crackers


----------



## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

Couple things.

First, PLEASE do some research. Don't bring an animal home that you know nothing about, and just go about assuming they are like other animals.

Goats are ruminants, they have a 2 part compartmentalized stomach, and they rely heavily on friendly bacteria to help break down their food. Any change in food, it takes a full 23 days for their stomach to adjust to the change by adjusting the proper growth of the right kinds of digestive bacteria. Since you have brought her home already, and are just throwing whatever kind of food at her without knowing what to provide, chances of sending her into enterotoxemia are pretty high. Get to your local feed store and pick up some GOAT FORMULATED probiotics and get her on them right away.

The heavy coughing is most often a sign of lungworms, in goats. A good worming is needed, ivermec products do the trick, but will need done over a period of a couple weeks if she is coughing badly.

Thirdly, are you absolutely certain she is pregnant, and has not already kidded? Pygmys are litte fat things, they have wide stomachs and they often LOOK pregnant even when they are not. Bottle raising baby goats is extremely common and selling a doe that has just come in to milk is not unusual. If that is the case you could be doing her a whole lot of damage by not milking her. 

Please spend the afternoon reading up on information about goats, so you can properly provide for her.

Feeding and Hydrating a Sick Goat

Goat Health Information

Pioneer Meadows Pygmy Goats: Pygmy Goat New Owner&#146;s Manual

Pioneer Meadows Pygmy Goats: Feeding Your Pygmy Goat

How To Care for Pygmy Goats | Goat Health


----------



## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Wow, Indy. Lots of good goat information. I now know who to ask if I have a goat question.


----------



## JustDoIt (May 24, 2011)

In my post I meant "her diet" not "beer diet" ...sorry,lol


----------



## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

lol justdoit i at first thought you were suggesting me to feed her beer until i reread it.

Indy i am pretty certain she is pregnant, her tailhead is pretty much exposed, and i could have swore i felt her tummy move, but i'll try to get pictures, i don't think she has kidded before, and they people from the auction said she was in with a billy so it's a pretty high chance she is preggo. i'll let mom know about the probiotics for her. and thats great we are picking up wormer for the horses this week, do they make special goat wormer or would we just give her a small amount of regular horse wormer which doesn't really make alot of sense, but i figured i'd ask anyway.

i'm off to read all your links now and favorite them for my mom to read as well when she gets home.


----------



## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

i also as anoter question, should we be milking her just in case and just bottle feed the kids afterwards? if she is pregnant that is. and she isn't fat by any means she's actually quite skinny but big the belly, her little hips bones are all sticking out and her back bone is poking up.


----------



## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

definitely [email protected] just went out to check her and she have the sac sticking out, and she has begun kidding and now i just have to keep a close eye on her!


----------



## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

well it's been about 2 hours since the sac popped out and we've had hardly any progression. mom will be here in 5 minutes, and i've been calling vets all over the place, none want to come see her, and think that i'ts not a problem as it can take up to 3 hours, but another vet i called said she needs assistance now but he's to far away, and was prepared to instruct me on how to help pull them out, when mom gets here i will probably call him back and have him help us. i do hope all goes well.


----------



## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

Good luck with the kidding!

Twins and triplets are normal, singletons can be more of a prob. You don't need to milk her and bottlefeed unless you want the milk yourself. Milking and bottlefeeding maximizes milk production (nursing, she will only produce as much milk as her baby will drink) and also it helps with the spread of many milk born diseases (if you pasteurize the milk). 

Also, goats are a dairy breed, like cows, it's not bad for their spine and hipbones to be prominent even when they are in very good weight. They are built differently than horses, a prominent topline is normal. She doesn't look underweight from what I can tell in the pictures (which admittedly isn't a lot, since she is laying down).

Since I assume you will let her nurse the babies, you need to make sure she is getting free choice alfalfa hay in her diet. A BoSe injection after the delivery is a good idea, and a calcium supplementation for the first few days will prevent ketosis.

ETA: You posted while I was still typing. If you have not had any progress in 2 hours since the bag appeared it is a *VETERINARY EMERGENCY*, she has the kid stuck - again common with pygmies and their little bodies. Find a vet to get there NOW, if no one will come search the computer for goat breeders in your area and see if someone can come out and midwife. Do NOT try to pull the babies yourself, most often goat kids actually need pushed back in and internally repositioned. You just try to pull it you WILL end up with a prolapsed uterus. Please get someone in your area that knows what they are doing out there ASAP.


----------



## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Fingers crossed that Lilkitty follows Indy's advice and the little goat is OK.


----------



## Stakie (Jul 11, 2011)

Oh gosh, hope everything goes well!


----------



## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

we are waiting on our large animal vet to call us back on if he is on the field in our area, if not we are going to load her up and take her in. i definitely think it's a single one, and he's no longer moving around, not sure if thats normal but i just have a feeling we've lost him, so mainly trying to save our little nanny.


----------



## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

and as an update i am not seeing any goat breeders within a 30 minute radius, or at least none that has put themselves out there.


----------



## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Any news?


----------



## ilovemyPhillip (Apr 4, 2009)

If it's breech, I would go in and try to adjust the kid. Goats DO NOT take that long. Normally they can kid without assistance, but since it's her first time.. The prognoses does not sound good. I'm hoping for at least a healthy mom. 

As for the coughing, it may be a respiratory infection. Or, as Indy said, lungworms. I can dig up the vaccines we give our goats for your guidance. We also give a supplement for vitamins/minerals they may not get in their usual diet. For a milking mother I would get a high protien dairy goat feed to keep producing milk (for baby). We give Southern States pellets/sweet feed.. I do suggest Purina Goat Chow/Purina goat show feed. TSC no longer carries it in my area. e.e

I'm wishing you luck and good thoughts.


----------



## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Update?


----------



## mysticalhorse (Apr 27, 2011)

Subbing.....pins & needles
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

i come bearing sad news, the babies were way to big for her, and we are pretty sure there were 2, all the vets were on call and to busy to come to us, and by the time we got her up there, it was best just to have her euthenized. and so we did. sad news, and it was due to irresponsibility of breeding the goat to a billy that was way to large for the doe, on top of it being her first babies.


----------



## mysticalhorse (Apr 27, 2011)

So sorry for your loss!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

lilkitty90 said:


> i come bearing sad news, the babies were way to big for her, and we are pretty sure there were 2, all the vets were on call and to busy to come to us, and by the time we got her up there, it was best just to have her euthenized. and so we did. sad news, and it was due to irresponsibility of breeding the goat to a billy that was way to large for the doe, on top of it being her first babies.


Um, no. 

It was because someone who didn't know the first thing about goats decided to buy a pregnant doe. :?

_You're_ responsible for her death and the death of the kids, not the buck. You need to learn to accept culpability for things, instead of constantly shoving the blame off on others.


----------



## mysticalhorse (Apr 27, 2011)

Dadgum SR, how old do you think the OP is? Her mum got the goat, her mum was gone at work, she beening a young woman (teen) did the best she could. Back off the laying of the blame.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

Even bred to a larger buck, the kids will not exceed size in the womb that a doe can carry and deliver. They are like horses in that respect.

I believe the loss of the doe and kids was more likely due to the kid being stuck for 2+ hours before vet attention was sought.

I am sorry for your loss, but this is seeming to become a recurring theme with you - please, please, do not bring home any more animals that you are unprepared to provide care for.


----------



## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

mysticalhorse said:


> Dadgum SR, how old do you think the OP is? Her mum got the goat, her mum was gone at work, she beening a young woman (teen) did the best she could. Back off the laying of the blame.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The OP is an adult. I believe she is actually 19. 

Why is it wrong to point out facts that are being neglected? It is OK for the OP to lay the blame on someone else (the buck and the person who bred the doe to the buck).


----------



## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

mysticalhorse said:


> Dadgum SR, how old do you think the OP is? Her mum got the goat, her mum was gone at work, she being a young woman (teen) did the best she could. Back off the laying of the blame.


Nope, this OP has a very long history of such things, and those of us who have been here longer than you are tired of her trying to throw the blame off on anyone other than herself.

She's also not a child. She's past the age of majority, so she needs to stop acting like a preteen who needs Mumsy and Daddums to make decisions.


----------



## mysticalhorse (Apr 27, 2011)

Gotcha, my bad, sorry! I have a 10yr old who it takes moving mountains to get her to own her own mistakes. I certainly hope she is there by 19..... 

Gotta grow up & see the real world.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

i'm not 19 i'm 18, i can NOT get medical attention to the goat without my mother's permission, she was at work and i couldn't contact her, i did what i could, by contact vets and asking them what i could do for her while we waited, i have no vehicle or a license to take the goat up there to seek medical attention myself. it was that the baby was to big, the head was to big to fit between the pelvic bones. since you weren't there you don't really no. i don't like having my case jumped after just loosing an animal, we didn't know that she may be pregnant until after we had already bought her, the guy told us "hey yeah btw she may be pregnant" and yes it was neglectful that we brought her home without knowing but we were trying to save her from a worse outcome which often happens at the horse auction. how were we suposed to know the kid would be to big for the doe, and YES it was. and yes i contacted the person that sold me the goat and he blatenly said that the doe should never had been bred with the buck because he WAS to big. i don't see how i have a reputation of bringing something home without knowing what i am doing? the dog? yes in my post i made that clear, but how do we know that the dog had a high prey drive. the guinea pig? because my sister wanted it and we already knew how to care for it. and SR i do need mom and dad to make decisions when it is concerning their money, how about i spend your money without you knowing?


----------



## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Lilkitty, you can say it over and over and over again. It does not make it so.

It is clear that Indy has pretty extensive goat knowledge. I get from her that breeding a small doe to a big buck does not make for a big baby that the mother can not birth. The baby develops to a size that the mother can give birth to even when the sizes of the parents are way off.

Hopefully next time you are faced with a cute animal you will remember this poor goat and hold off on getting it until you have the capability to take care of it and the knowledge of the care it requires.


----------



## ilovemyPhillip (Apr 4, 2009)

Just like in humans, goat pelvic bones can be too small.. Sometimesa c section can be needed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

you know how to care for horses, and the fact that you rescue a horse, and it is pregnant and when you are faced with the birthing process, it can STILL DIE whether you have the experience or not, we know how to CARE for a goat, we have had family members in the past who cared for them and raised them but it's been awhile I have never cared for one but my mom has been around them, though she's never owned one, just because it has to be put down because of a birth that couldn't happen because A it was to big and B it was twisted around, the feet were in the wrong position, when the feet were finally in the right position the head was in the wrong position and made it impossible for it to be delivered, whether we knew how to care for the goat or not i firmly believe the outcome would have been the same, we did have people who have raised and delivered goats come out, and they said nothing could be done, as well. NOTHING could have been done to change the outcome, i had NO access to a car to take her anywhere and i had the proper people that indy suggested come out and NOTHING could be done, if you wanted to get your fanny out and see for yourself you should have. i don't see how it would have been different. sure maybe someone else bought her they could have had a car, to get her somewhere, but is that really the point? reprimand me for rescueing an animal yet fuss at people for not rescueing. alright. makes tons of sense.


----------



## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

I do not fuss at people who are not rescuing when they are not prepared to rescue.

I personally would not 'rescue' a horse that I am not prepared to care for. Not being able to get a vet out when needed does equal not being prepared.

If your mother knows about goats then I guess she would have known up front that the goat was pregnant, not just after the guy told you. She also would have known about taking proper care of it and you would not have had to post here asking basic care questions.


All I am hoping for her is that you learn from this tragic mistake. Do not just sweep it under the rug as one of those things, like you do with everything else. Learn something. Please. You are legally an adult now. Please learn to take responsibility for your own actions.


----------



## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

well yeah she knows, she's the one that went out and bought the proper grain and alfalfa hay, and minerals and was going back out for the wormers and such. i asked for my knowledge, not hers, i like to do my own learning and research and ask my own questions, she didn't know if she was pregnant or like indy said had just weaned off a baby, the guy told us that she may be pregnant after we bought her which tells us that she hadn't just weaned off a kid. and always i'm talking about even if you were prepapred, thats really something that you couldn't prevent. and you can;t deny that. it's just one of those things that happen, sure with someone care could have gotten to her faster but it was still stuck and stuck is stuck. i don't think there would have been a much different outcome either way. it was her first kid, and yes most of the time they don't grow to large, but i wouldn't see why they couldn't, women have babies that are to large. or she could have had a deformidty or something of her bones, either way she wasn't dilated enough, and the pelvic bones were to small.


----------



## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

lilkitty90 said:


> it's just one of those things that happen, sure with someone care could have gotten to her faster but it was still stuck and stuck is stuck. i don't think there would have been a much different outcome either way. it was her first kid, and yes most of the time they don't grow to large, but i wouldn't see why they couldn't, women have babies that are to large. or she could have had a deformidty or something of her bones, either way she wasn't dilated enough, and the pelvic bones were to small.


Not true. 
My very first doe, Sweetpea, had a malformation in her uterus that caused her to birth the head of one kid and the front legs of the other at the same time. She did this the exact same way, both times. Both times, the vet was called, the kids were pushed back in, manipulated within the uterus (by the vet) and delivered individually rather than side by side as the doe attempted. She did this on her very first kidding, she survived and was fine, both kids were fine. She did the exact same thing on her second kidding (she was also a petite LaMancha doe bred to a very large Boer buck the second time around, BTW). The second time, also, with proper vet care the doe survived and was fine, both kids survived and were fine. That was when the vet determined there was something unusual about her uterus that caused this, so it was decided then she would not ever be bred again. But both times, both kids and the doe survived. Had they not been able to be delivered vaginally, a C section certainly would have been the next step. *A timely c section could and WOULD have saved your goat*, please don't try to say there was no other option but euthanasia, because it's simply not true. 

Yes, human women are also sometimes too small to deliver a baby vaginally. That's why C sections exist. I have certainly never heard a doctor say "well, she can't pass the baby, there is nothing to do, we had better just euthanize her instead." I doubt you or anyone else has either.

If it's a procedure your parents elected not to have due to financial reasons or whatever, then that's your business, but there _were_ ways to save the goat out there. And utilizing every option out there is a responsibility you have to accept when taking on the care of another life. 

You can hardly claim an animal you BOUGHT was a rescue. And the fact that you did not do all you could have to save her further shows that to be fact. You bought an animal that someone else could have potentially bought, someone else who might have potentially been more knowledgeable about goats, someone who might have had access to a vet, funds for a C section, or at the very least a car to take the animal into the clinic when it was suffering. So you can not claim you rescued this animal. What you did was very far from rescuing.

I don't think anyone is trying to pick on you here, Lilkitty, or be mean. We are all sad the doe and her babies have been lost. I think we are just hoping a lesson has been learned. Failure to take responsibility for the measures you did not take does not imply that it has.


----------



## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

so basically indy, if she had not been pregnant, then she would have been considered a rescue right? because then she would have been properly cared for, if some freak accident hadn't happened like it did, then she would still be considered a rescued goat. thats basically what your saying, and Indy i honestly want to say that i think thats what she was doing as well, front feet of one kid and head of another. but her pelvic bones were to small for hands to really repostion the kids, and yes i have stated maybe if we had had a car to get to a vet, she could have been saved as well as the babies, but i also want to mention that we are pretty much positive that the babies were dead upon delivery. i didn't feel any movement in her stomache on the day she was delivering, not before she started birthing or while she was trying. and we were told a C-section wasn't a garunteed save for any of them, and that it was risky and would progbably still loose all 3.


----------



## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

lilkitty90 said:


> so basically indy, if she had not been pregnant, then she would have been considered a rescue right? because then she would have been properly cared for, if some freak accident hadn't happened like it did, then she would still be considered a rescued goat. thats basically what your saying, and Indy i honestly want to say that i think thats what she was doing as well, front feet of one kid and head of another. but her pelvic bones were to small for hands to really repostion the kids, and yes i have stated maybe if we had had a car to get to a vet, she could have been saved as well as the babies, but i also want to mention that we are pretty much positive that the babies were dead upon delivery. i didn't feel any movement in her stomache on the day she was delivering, not before she started birthing or while she was trying. and we were told a C-section wasn't a garunteed save for any of them, and that it was risky and would progbably still loose all 3.


No. Even had she not been pregnant, she would not be a rescue in my book. You went to an auction and bought her. I don't consider Lola, my mule, a rescue, and I bought her out of the kill pen at the auction when she was being bid on by a known kill buyer. But I BOUGHT her. I didn't rescue her. I consider Monty a rescue, because I was contacted and asked to take him, no money exchanged hands for me to take him on, he did not have any other options. But I did not buy him, therefore I did not close off other options he might have had by taking him for myself. 

Pygmies are not often taken for meat at auctions. Like miniature horses - it happens, but most slaughter buyers wont bother due to their small size the profit/yield isn't worth it. Chances are, had you not bought her, some other person might have bought her. Someone who potentially WOULD have had the options available to save her in this circumstance. So you didn't rescue her, you limited her options because you were taking her to a home that was not able to go the distance in providing what she needed, which would have ultimately saved her.

Regardless of the circumstances, even dead kids could have been delivered. Generally you don't feel any movement on the day before labor, as the babies are being positioned for birth. That is no indication of the health of the kids, at that point.

Her labor was not her death sentence. That is the premise I am objecting to. The mentality that nothing could have been done, and therefore none of this was your fault. I don't agree with that. 

I don't know how many hours passed between the start of her birth and the time she was actually seen by a vet (if she even was, ultimately? from the sounds of your last post, it sounds like she never actually even WAS seen by the vet. Did she just die on her own during the birth, really?) but I know it was greater than 2 hours, at that point it was already too late for the first kid, I would just about guarantee. I know you mentioned you had contacted some goat breeders, but (not to be mean) but I honestly find that kind of hard to believe when you stated that there were none in your area when I initially suggested it. Similar to when I suggested you get in touch with herding trainers for your dog - I suspect you didn't even bother to really look.

IF you tried to pull the kids yourself, you killed your goat. Flat out. You can NOT pull kids on a goat like you can on horses and cows. I had cautioned that before, but I doubt that was listened to either. That is all I will say about that.


----------



## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

yes i hadn't found one yet, but that a quick run through on the internet. then i started calling people and tracked 2 down. both said nothing could be done.
and as i said, we did take her up to the vet and has her euthanized. i told you we did. the stuck kids arn't what killed her, we had her put down, she was simply in way to much pain and you could easily tell that. i think that was the best option for her at the time. better then letting her lay around and suffer like one of the goat breeders said right? he wanted us to let her lay there and check on her every 30 minutes "she should repositin the baby herself and get it out" no i don't think she would have. she would have laid there and died and very painful and heartbreaking death. so we did what we did.


----------



## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Save your breath, Indy. .... Never mind, I take that back. You are teaching the rest of us stuff. So what if some people refuse to learn.

Just because you say someone else would have done something less humane does not make the situation anything other than what it is.


----------



## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

Always i never said we weren't also to blame, but all the blame doesn't lie in one place, there are alot of factors. and many things and people to blame, we are one of them, i never once said we weren't but i'm pointing out that we arn't the only ones or things to blame in this whole situation. yes we brought an animal home that we didn't have money in the bank to immediately care for. yes we brought an animal home when the kids don't have a car to take it to the vet when it starts kidding. (which could have happened without someone here to call around and help out, there could've been no kids and no one there to check on her) but we did go buy food the day we brought her home, as well as hay and minerals and immediately got up to date on care, as it's been awhile since mom's been around goats and things do change. and now here we are with goat grain, and alfalfa in our house and with nothing to eat it. so i just want you to know that i DO know we are partly to blame, but we ARN'T the only factor at fault.


----------



## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

I am so not surprised. When you first posted pics of your new goat, I took an intake of air but held my thoughts. When you said it was having trouble birthing, I knew this wasn't going to end well, especially as you said it had been a few hours. At that point, I believe I asked for an update, as I just knew this would happen. 

I find it very hard to believe that you didn't have a friend or a neighbor or a taxi cab or anything that could have taken you to a vets. Most 18 yr old girls I have ever known would live for the drama of racing a goat to the vets to be saved. 

Please seriously consider the care you are able to provide for your animals before bringing something else home to eat the left over food you have.


----------



## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

left over food i have? i went out and bought grain for the goat? i didn't feed it scraps? when did i ever say i fed it scraps? and maybe when you were an 18 yr old little girl you loved drama. but i sure don't.


----------



## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

You say that you went out and bought it grain like I should pat you on the back for that. That does not make you a better owner. It is what one should do when they get a new animal. 

Why not give the left over goat feed to the goat expert who came over and helped you. I am sure they could use it. Kind of like payment for them helping you out.


----------



## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

That's what I meant the left over grain and minerals you bought. My concern was that you would get another goat as you already have the feed. 

Are you seriously saying that you didn't have a friend that would come over and drive the goat to a vets for you?


----------



## coffeeaddict (Jun 18, 2010)

I think this whole situation could be a lesson for you. That perhaps you shouldn't bring home animals and expect to reply on your parents to provide money for their care. 

If you can't pay for it on your own. Don't bring it home. This way you won't ever have to wait for permission to get medical care, buy food, or do anything else that is needed. You are an adult now at 18, this is what adults do. They pay for things on their own.


----------



## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

i couldn't do that without my parents permission AlexS it's their goat, and their money. if it was my money i was spending i would have found a way to get it there. and Always that is a good idea actually.


----------



## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

coffee once again the goat wasn't mine. it was my parents.


----------



## coffeeaddict (Jun 18, 2010)

Well, if I was watching my mother's dog for example, and that dog was dieing, I would rush it to the vet and pay for whatever needed done myself. 

If my mom paid me back after great. If not, then at least I did what was needed to help the dog. I think maybe a quick look at priorities are in order here.


----------



## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

lilkitty90 said:


> i couldn't do that without my parents permission AlexS it's their goat, and their money. if it was my money i was spending i would have found a way to get it there.



So you did take it to a vets or you didn't?



lilkitty90 said:


> and as i said, we did take her up to the vet and has her euthanized. i told you we did.


----------



## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

I have taken my mums dog to the vet numerous times when she wasn't home, didn't think it was that serious, etc.

I just get up, take it to the vet, and pay for it - Because THATS WHAT YOU DO.


----------



## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

I have taken my mums dog to the vet a few times now, when she either wasn't home, or didn't think it warranted a vet.

I just got the dog, got it to the vet, and paid for it. Because THAT'S WHAT YOU DO.

Animals don't know or care who they belong to or where money comes from to treat them. *They need care, then they get care*. Thats how it goes. If you can't guarantee that - DON'T GET ANIMALS. 

It's really very simple.


----------



## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

i don't have a car, and i didn't have the kind of money she needed 30 bucks is all i have to my name. i don't have a job so i couldn't get anything done for her, and we did take her to the vet but because i couldn't when she wasn't home it was to late for her and she was euthanized.


----------



## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Take a taxi? Organize a payment plan? 

I guess I would be having a little more sympathy if you said "Yeah, I screwed up. In the future I'm going to make sure I have a plan and can give my animal all the medical care it needs etc etc" without the added on "but it wasn't all my fault because of xyz"


----------



## lildonkey8 (Dec 12, 2010)

It isn't her fault she doesn't have a license, or money, or a car. it WASN'T her fault the goat was pregnant. But ya know what? *Nobody careeeees*


----------



## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

I actually do care...
I've had too many animals brought into work in the same situation we've had to euthanize for completely preventable reasons. It makes me quite upset to see.


----------



## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Real mature lildonkey. She is responsible for this situation as is the previous owner and apparently her mother. But go ahead and brush it off. :roll:


----------



## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Lildonkey, she has an aggressive dog that she cannot afford a trainer for, the dog just killed a few chickens and now a guinea pig. She is now looking to rehome the dog, when all it needed was a trainer and to be kept on a leash while out, or crated when home alone. 

She also had very underweight horses with poor feet, that animal control was called out to. 

And now she has a dead goat and babies. 

I think it is reasonable at this point to question the level of care that the animals are receiving.


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Oh my Alex, I was a little on the fence over this one, but if all that has gone on before then I can certainly understand it:twisted:


----------



## lildonkey8 (Dec 12, 2010)

Oh, well how would I be this updated may I ask? Just-never mind. :sad:


----------



## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

lildonkey8 said:


> Oh, well how would I be this updated may I ask? Just-never mind. :sad:


In my mind it is totally fine that you did not know this, not everyone has the time to know this much about every poster here. I don't but I remember some, the OP is one of them. 

Lildonkey, no problems, no worries, you did not know. If you are still in doubt, search her previous posts, you do that by clicking on her profile. The horse neglect was about end of winter/spring time.


----------



## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

sigh Alex... those horses were NOT mine and if you can't accept that then fine, but we are moving our horses and when you see the pictures of ours in the new pasture WITHOUT those skinny horses, it's because we didn't bring them.. because they are NOT my horses. if you would actually read in the last post you would know this.

the dog. yeah she has killed several things, but she still isn't going anywhere, as a matter of fact she is sitting right here in my lap, things happen, and the dog did kill chickens and my sisters gunea pig, but i've been working with her, no we can't take her to a trainer because my mom doesn't want to. she didn't think the dog would break into a room and terrorize the room trying to find the piggie. and she does't bother the chickens now.

LilDonkey i have a reputation like AlexS says because they make one for me, they nit pick into everything and automatically assume the worst and never believe what anyone says when i say i don't own those horses.


----------



## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

i also want to add that the people who owned those horses did see all of our rude comments, and it caused alot of problems over here with us keeping our horses here but, that chesnut is now alot better, the appy i still think has a medical problem, and we are getting the vet out this week to look at my mom's horse and i garuntee you they still wont have their horse checked. i am not responsible for their horses or their conditions.


----------



## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

and so you don't even have to look.
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-pictures/day-pasture-~overload-pictures-~-82721/
there is the post with all the drama, started out with my sharing in the joy of a new pasture.


----------



## ilovemyPhillip (Apr 4, 2009)

lilkitty90 said:


> sigh Alex... those horses were NOT mine and if you can't accept that then fine, but we are moving our horses and when you see the pictures of ours in the new pasture WITHOUT those skinny horses, it's because we didn't bring them.. because they are NOT my horses. if you would actually read in the last post you would know this.
> 
> the dog. yeah she has killed several things, but she still isn't going anywhere, as a matter of fact she is sitting right here in my lap, things happen, and the dog did kill chickens and my sisters gunea pig, but i've been working with her, no we can't take her to a trainer because my mom doesn't want to. she didn't think the dog would break into a room and terrorize the room trying to find the piggie. and she does't bother the chickens now.
> 
> *LilDonkey i have a reputation like AlexS says because they make one for me, they nit pick into everything and automatically assume the worst and never believe what anyone says when i say i don't own those horses.*


Lolyep. Same here. I just don't want to give all my information to them, because they'd still find a way to make me out as a "terrible person who tortures animals". :roll: psssh yeah. Just because we don't, or can't do things in the nick of time doesn't mean we're horrible people. You treat us as such, regardless. This forum has been *so *cold an uninviting now. You jump on everyones case, then label them.. So we never get help when we ask other questions.


----------



## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Both of you made your *own* reputations, Phillip and Lil. Too bad for you that the rest of us have long memories. 

It sickens me that you think it's okay to be neglectful to animals, and keep slobbering out excuse after excuse. You know what? It's NOT OKAY. Ignorance is no excuse. 

To quote a passage from Black Beauty:

"Only ignorance! only ignorance! how can you talk about *only* ignorance?

Don't you know that it is the worst thing in the world, next to wickedness?--and which does the most mischief, heaven only knows. 

If people can say, 'Oh! I did not know, I did not mean any harm,' they think it is all right."


----------



## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Speed Racer said:


> Both of you made your *own* reputations, Phillip and Lil. Too bad for you that the rest of us have long memories.


And their posts here only prove that they continue to feel that nothing is ever their fault.
It is not my fault my goat got run over by a truck.
It is not my fault my much beloved goat suffered for a long time with all kinds of issues and no vet care before he finally died.
It is not my fault my horse continues too look like it is failing to thrive even though I stamp my feet and insist I deworm but then post that maybe I was not deworming.



Great and fitting quote, SR.


What you all do not seem to understand is, we are all more than willing to help you by giving you advice. Indy posted lots of great information in this thread. You simply have to be willing to listen instead of making excuses why you are different.


----------



## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

when did i ever say i wasn't deworming them? i didn't my horses were always dewormed. i did admit to having a bad schedule be the vet helped us work it out and now we are on the right schedule. i did say the other people didn't worm their 2 horses in awhile.


----------



## VanillaBean (Oct 19, 2008)

Wow people, get a life. 

Ganging up on LilKitty for rescuing a goat. So she didnt know anything about them when she adopted her, i'm sure she knew she could go to a friend/online and find information. Not that hard.

I'm sorry you had to put her down, and I TOTALLY understand that you did not have the funds or parents around at the time so, yeah, it was your only choice.

This forum is going haywire.


----------



## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

Really Vanilla?? 

First, she didn't "rescue" the goat. She bought it. 

Second, she is an adult, who bought an animal she didn't know how to care for, nor did she have the funds to care for it. The animal (and it's babies) are now DEAD (probably painfully) because she didn't care for it properly. 

Since when is this not a big deal? 

Even if it was her mother's decision to buy the goat she should've gotten it to a vet. I've done it before with roommate's/parent's/friend's animals before more than once. If you have any sort of relationship with the vet they will more than likely allow a payment plan. And quite frankly if you don't have the ability to pay upfront or make a payment plan with a vet you have NO BUSINESS buying an animal. Much less a pregnant and sick (coughing) one.

Again. Since when is this acceptable behavior?


----------



## VanillaBean (Oct 19, 2008)

Whoops, sorry, _bought_.

It probably would have died anyway. Not many people would pay for a "goatie C section". A farmer would have just shot it.


----------



## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

VanillaBean said:


> It probably would have died anyway. Not many people would pay for a "goatie C section". A farmer would have just shot it.



No, a FARMER would have been smart enough to not have BOUGHT an animal he knew nothing about, and instead of doing any actual research just _hoped _everything would be okay. :?

Really, your attitude appalls me, and I daresay it's rather hypocritical.

Some of you are the very FIRST to start screeching about calling AC or stealing someone's animals (which is illegal) if someone posts a sob story with pictures. 

The simple facts are that the goat and her kids would probably have survived if someone with some knowledge and in good standing with their vet had bought her _instead_ of the OP.

I am not at all surprised it turned out the way it did, because the OP has a long history of ignorance, neglect, and 'unintentional' abuse. Unintentional or not, the abuse and neglect are_ very_ real, and it's no more excusable than someone who does it on purpose.

The OP and Phillip should be feeling guilty, not telling people it's 'not my fault', when it so clearly_ is_ their fault. Take responsibility for your actions. If you can't do that, then you shouldn't own anything more complex than brine shrimp.


----------



## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Speed Racer said:


> *The OP and Phillip should be feeling guilty, not telling people it's 'not my fault', when it so clearly is their fault. Take responsibility for your actions. If you can't do that, then you shouldn't own anything more complex than brine shrimp*.


This this this!


----------



## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

^^^^ Yes!!!!


----------



## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

VanillaBean said:


> Whoops, sorry, _bought_.
> 
> It probably would have died anyway. Not many people would pay for a "goatie C section". A farmer would have just shot it.


Just because YOU wouldn't, doesn't mean many people wouldn't.

For me, my goats are just as important and as much a part of my life as my horses are. If a c section was needed I wouldn't think twice about having it done. And I know a lot of goat people - far more goat people than I know horse people, actually. And I can't think of a single fellow goat breeder I know that would choose to euth over a c-section in a circumstance like this. 

Please don't assume you know everything in the world about the choices other people would make. Perhaps your life has been filled with a lot of farmers on the really uncaring, crappy end of the spectrum. That does not make you an expert on anything but uncaring, crappy farmers. Most the farmers I know have a far better ethic about how they care for their animals then you are claiming - they have to. The animals are their livelihood.


----------



## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

^Wanted to address this. 

I have assisted in a few c-sections on rabbits. One such was a rabbit they left in labor for quite a few hours and had been pulling on the kit. 

By the time the rabbit came in, the kit was dead, the mother was near dead, and when the doctor removed the rabbit the head was left in utero. We had to go in for surgery to remove the rest of the kit from the uterus. 

This thread made me think of that because that surgery was also avoidable if they would have intervened earlier. They however did bring it in and took care of their rabbit and so I have no harsh feelings against them. 

Once again, *If the OP would just admit that she screwed up and say she'll be making better plans without making excuses for why it wasn't all her fault, I think a lot of us would have more sympathy and 'back off'.*


----------



## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

> Always I never said we weren't also to blame, but all the blame doesn't lie in one place, there are alot of factors. And many things and people to blame, we are one of them, I never once said we weren't but i'm pointing out that we arn't the only ones or things to blame in this whole situation. Yes we brought an animal home that we didn't have money in the bank to immediately care for. Yes we brought an animal home when the kids don't have a car to take it to the vet when it starts kidding. (which could have happened without someone here to call around and help out, there could've been no kids and no one there to check on her) but we did go buy food the day we brought her home, as well as hay and minerals and immediately got up to date on care, as it's been awhile since mom's been around goats and things do change. And now here we are with goat grain, and alfalfa in our house and with nothing to eat it. So I just want you to know that I DO know we are partly to blame, but we ARN'T the only factor at fault.


reread spastic.


----------



## TaMMa89 (Apr 12, 2008)

Not playing the devil's advocate here but...

I'd point out something that I started to think while reading this thread; correct me if I'm wrong but I caught that lilkitty and the mom bought the goat _together_, no matter if she is legally adult or not. Bringing the animal under your roof together with other person (your child or other person, adult or child) knowing that the other person doesn't have very independent resources for keeping it and agreeing that you use your resources put you under the greater responsibility, IMO. And being dependable on your parents makes the animal that you take with your parent dependable on the parent too, actually it makes the animal owned by the parent. Some of you mentioned in some other thread that the parent's house, the parent's rules. I'd also add that the parent's responsibility if she agrees to do something like that. That's why I personally see where lilkitty is coming from with the situation and that her possiblities to help were limited; at least she tried.

I'm not skipping all the fault to the mom either, nor to the lilkitty even they have responsible of all that. I guess that not the mom or lilkitty tried to be intentionally ignorant or let the animal suffer or die. For me it seems more like a good intention which turned out to have bad outcomes. Sure I agree that it isn't a wise idea to take an animal about which you don't know anything at all. Anyways, even sure the experienced person would may have done something more with the situation, it seems more like a mix of bad luck and wrong decisions to me. Unluckily the animal was the one who took a hit because of that now. Still, at least they finally did what they could, euthanized the animal and now we all can be sure that she doens't suffer anymore. Don't take me wrong, things like that shouldn't happen and my message to you lilkitty would be that I'm sorry for the goat and wish that the next time before having an animal you research about it beforehands enough. Since you've already reached legal adulthood, I'd also suggest you to be prepared to take care of an animal if you take one with other person and seems that the other person can't, temporarily or permanently. Even sure it's all up to you how these things work in your family and what kind of relationship you have in that thing.


----------



## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

lilkitty90 said:


> Always I never said we weren't also to blame, *but all the blame doesn't lie in one place, there are alot of factors*. And many things and people to blame, we are one of them, I never once said we weren't *but i'm pointing out that we arn't the only ones or things to blame in this whole situation*. Yes we brought an animal home that we didn't have money in the bank to immediately care for. Yes we brought an animal home when the kids don't have a car to take it to the vet when it starts kidding. (*which could have happened without someone here to call around and help out, there could've been no kids and no one there to check on her)*_ but we did go buy food the day we brought her home, as well as hay and minerals and immediately got up to date on care, as it's been awhile since mom's been around goats and things do change_(This is just basic animal care). And now here we are with goat grain, and alfalfa in our house and with nothing to eat it. So I just want you to know that I DO know *we are partly to blame, but we ARN'T the only factor at fault.*


Omit what I bolded, and that is more what I am talking about. That is what I mean by WITHOUT the added excuses of why it wasn't all your fault.


----------



## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Tamma, my only reply is "The road to hell is paved with good intentions".


----------



## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Spastic_Dove said:


> Tamma, my only reply is "The road to hell is paved with good intentions".


Amen to that, Spastic!


----------



## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

lilkitty90 said:


> Always i never said we weren't also to blame, but all the blame doesn't lie in one place, there are alot of factors. and many things and people to blame, we are one of them, i never once said we weren't but i'm pointing out that we arn't the only ones or things to blame in this whole situation.


Who are these 'other people' at whose door you're trying to throw off part of the blame?

The breeder? NOT.

The seller? NOT.

The people who bought a pregnant goat without having any real knowledge of how to care for one, and no funds to make sure she kidded safely? DING, DING, DING! WE HAVE A WINNER!


----------



## TaMMa89 (Apr 12, 2008)

Would add: I'm sorry but I missed the 'we didn't have money in the bank to immediately care for' part. If the thing is that also with your mom, then I'm sorry but I don't see it very responsible act to take an animal in a situation like that.


----------



## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

History plays a large part in my opinion on this situation. 

If this was the first animal that the OP had provided this type of care to, I would be saying, that's a shame you probably should have taken it to a vet sooner. 

However this is not the first time her quality of care has been discussed. There were the horses, then the dog, then the guinea pig - and now this. The fact that she is not willing to accept her errors really concerns me for the rest of her animals.


----------



## lildonkey8 (Dec 12, 2010)

The horses WEREN'T here's! SO people, just drop the horses!


----------



## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

lildonkey8 said:


> The horses WEREN'T here's! SO people, just drop the horses!


Several of them WERE hers, which are the ones we're discussing.

Donkey, you're very young and she might have _you_ snowed, but the rest of know her history far better than you do.

Plus, you telling adults to drop something when it's not your place to do so, isn't winning you any brownie points.


----------



## lildonkey8 (Dec 12, 2010)

OK, fine. I'll just forget this thread and prey it gets closed. Is one or posts posts not enough?


----------



## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Considering that two moderators are posting here with similar concerns, I would suggest that they are aware of it and will close it if they feel it is needed. 

You are right, two of the horses, the ones in the worst condition were not hers - however the others horses were hers. She had a colt in with mares, wormy horses, and not enough money to care for them all.


----------



## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

the horses aren't wormy, they get rotated and frequently vet checked, the colt was with the mares until he dropped, and then immediately gelded, anything else you want to throw at me about the quality of my horse care?


----------



## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Nope, I am done as everything I stated was repeating things that you said.


----------



## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

So do you see the difference between what you wrote and what I was asking? How one of them makes excuses and the other takes responsibility?


----------



## ilovemyPhillip (Apr 4, 2009)

Seriously rolls her eyes at this thread. 

My "beloved goat I let suffer" was not suffering. His 'bad recessive genes showing' showed after he bred my doe. He was very smart and broke many fences before we found one that could properly contain him. 

You all read what you wanted to read on my doe's thread. I should have never posted that. I was wallowing in guilt and had to let it out. I said 'oh well' because it was better than feeling like poop. It's not my fault she got hit. I saw another member on here who let her dog outside. Looked away, and BAM her puppy got hit. Sort of what happened to us. A branch fell on her pen, broke it, we were about to repair it, then she got hit.

Done deal. 

This is getting ridiculous on all parts.


----------



## Mike_User (Oct 24, 2006)

At the end of the day, I'm sure everyone is in agreement that what happened is very unfortunate.



TaMMa89 said:


> it seems more like a mix of bad luck and wrong decisions to me


The thing is that a lot of "bad luck" is reasonably foreseeable. If you wander down a dark alley in a bad neighborhood and get jumped, it's not just bad luck at play.

Most people who have an animal who's welfare they care about that is about to give birth, a process that is known to involve complications a fair amount of time, take reasonable measures to ensure they can mitigate against those complications should they occur. While it might not be reasonable to ensure you have access to a vet if, say, a pet mouse had complications during delivery, a goat is arguably another matter.

It's understandable why being invited to this thread to "witness" the birth of baby goats, only to hear that the babies and mother all died because the OP was not in a position to get to or pay for a vet, has some members very upset. That the OP has evidently reported that other animals have suffered arguably preventable deaths in her care doesn't help matters.

Still, lilkitty90, I'm fairly confident that what anyone who has posted in this thread wants more than anything is to see you learn and grow so that nothing like this happens again. I think it's safe to say that we're all here to help you learn and grow if you want to, even members who may have had harsh words for you. What has obviously frustrated members is your pointing fingers at others for the preventable deaths that took place in front of you; if you are 18 years old and an animal is in your care, then the animal is your responsibility, and you arguably shouldn't have the animal if, between you and anyone you may co-own the animal with, you can't afford to be responsible for it.

I can't imagine losing your goat and her babies was easy for you. You have my sympathies despite whatever role you may have played, and I hope you know that my intention for saying the things I've said here was not to be hurtful. Which leads me to this: I honestly think you would find everyone at this community _supporting_ you if you acknowledged that, as an adult, your animals are your responsibility, as are their fates, and committed yourself to conducting yourself accordingly, whether that means giving away animals you can't afford, taking steps to mitigate reasonably foreseeable "bad luck" in the future, etc. 

I would ask that, should lilkitty90 commit herself to taking responsibility and bettering her husbandry in this way, everyone try to move beyond her past and help her progress, at least for her animals' sake.

With that, since a fair amount has already been said on the matter of the death of the OP's goats, and I don't think anything productive can come of leaving this thread open, I am closing it.


----------

