# Where your hands should be riding English



## Cheyennes mom (Aug 6, 2010)

Hey guys!
So my instructor is ALWAYS nagging me about keeping my arms up and elbows bent but whenever I see anyone riding in an English Equitation class or anything their hands are always very low and spread apart. Another thing is that when my elbows bend and my hands go up, Cheyenne's head goes up too and my low collection disappears right away. I have a show this Saturday so I'll be practicing tomorrow to make some corrections, so yeah.
If you could find a picture of correct hand/arm position as appose to incorrect position to show me, that would be awesome! And what I can do to get it right and keep my hands up and Cheyenne's head down.
Thanks a bunch!

BTW: The picture is during my last show in September, I wasn't thinking of hand position here so this should be about where my hands go naturally.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

See the angle of the elbow, it's closer to 90 degrees than 180 (flat) Ignore the horse.










Even closer to 90, elbows in, thumbs up.

The way I explain it to my kids is think like you're holding a tray of your favourite goodies out in front of you. The only difference is your thumbs stay on top. If you throw your arms away, you can't easily engage your core and take advantage of your seat. Plus you may not be balanced especially if your horse has a tendency to lean or tug on your contact.

Hope that helps.


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## Cheyennes mom (Aug 6, 2010)

okay makes sense, thanks. My instructor says to hold a cup of water in one hand and an ice cream cone in the other. You can't spill the water and you can't let your icecream fall off the cone


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## Jumper12 (Feb 2, 2012)

you should have a straight line from elbow-wrist-bit, if your horses head goes up so should your hands (and vice versa) so the bit is acting properly on the horses mouth and so you have a good connection and feel with the horse. hope this helps!


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

You should maintain a constant straight line, from your elbow, through your wrist/hand, and to the bit. The hands stay at a width approximately the width of the horse's mouth. 
It depends on which type of english you are looking at doing as well. In Australia we don't do any of that hunter/jumper, equation stuff that you guys in the US do, so I can't comment there. But in dressage, ideally the hands are resting around 1inch off the top of the wither, depending on how long your arms are, to maintain that constant straight line I mentioned earlier. If you break that line, then there are more stops for a message to travel through before it reaches the horse's mouth, so essentially you have broken the connection from the hind legs to the bridle - entirely defeating the purpose of working in collection.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

Here's the quickest pic I could find...










I think we'd make a pretty snazzy English pair


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

If you want a visual about the straight line that Kayty and Jumper12 are talking about

The red line from bit to forearm should be straight.

Red is correct.

Green is incorrect. It would help without the running martingale, but even then there is a break between the reins and the forearm. Not a consistent line.


Pics are from google, edited in Paint


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## Cheyennes mom (Aug 6, 2010)

Thanks a lot guys! I'd love to get pictures of me tomorrow and you guys can tell me how I did...not sure if it'll happen but we'll see!
Thanks again!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

In a way, think more about your elbow than your hand location. You can still have a straight line from elbow, through wrist to bit and have you arms way out in front of you, locked in a straight line. That would be incorrect. (it is occassionally seen as necessary in some phases of jumping)

More important is where is your elbow? Is it close to your side and with a nice bend in it? or is out like a chicken wing?

This will relate to the second most important thing; is your thumb on top and laser pointing straight to the bit ring? 

If you have those two things in place, all the rest follows naturally.


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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

I agree with tinylily! 

This is how I hold my hands,


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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

Someone was talking about having ha 90 degree angle in your elbow - that only works if the horse is collected enough. 

If the horse is not collected enough, or behind the bit. A 90 degree angle in your elbow will cause a broken line between the bit and the elbow.

Like this.


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## Leahrene (Jul 29, 2011)

Im always confused about this too. I ride HUS and I see people straight arming it all the time and elbows flying. I was always told to keep them tight and bent (as others have said) ive been through alot of 'trainers' and theyve all said the same but yet at shows the people I watch have straighter angles. :/


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

Riding with elbows straight and hands pointing down is one of my biggest pet peeves. It seems that loads of folk are doing it, essentially pulling the horse's head into a frame of sorts. The problem is that it kind of works at a superficial level; a reasonably well trained horse will follow the pressure down and drop his nose. But then what? No release, no softening = bracy, unhappy horse who has his head down but no impulsion or relaxation through his back. Not only is there a broken line from you to the horse's mouth, as people in this thread have been saying, which disconnects the hind quarters, but it's impossible to have soft, following contact, or a "soft feel," as Mark Rashid would say. Try softly following the movement of the horse's head with your elbows at an obtuse angle and your hands below the pommel of the saddle. You can't.

The people you're watching at shows aren't doing it right. A horse can put his head down and arch his neck in response to pressure from the bit and his hind end can remain in the next county. 

When I was teaching, I'd have my student hold the reins at one end and move them gently back and forth, pretending to be the horse. I'd first brace against them, not giving at all, and ask how it felt, and they'd say it didn't feel very good. "Great," I'd say. "Then don't ride like that and do that to your horse." Then I'd be a soft rider with a following contact and they'd say that felt much better.


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## Cheyennes mom (Aug 6, 2010)

Okay this all makes sense. Thanks a lot guys


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## Quixotic (May 22, 2009)

I was a working student for an upper level eventer for a while, & in order to "teach" my green horse collection, she had me hold my hands straight down at his shoulders to kind of force his head into a frame. As a result, my horse developed a horrible habit of digging his head into his chest (especially at the canter) while not actually engaging his hind-quarters at all, and my trainer and I had to work hard to un-teach him this behaviour after I returned to her barn. If people are holding their hands this way at shows, then they've been taking shortcuts in their training. This is the "easy way" to make your horse put his head down, but it is not the correct way.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

not only is it bad for the horse and teaches it a false way of going, but it will make the rider more likely to tip forward becuase her energy is going downward into that "wheelbarrow" she is pushing in front of her, and will keep the horse on the forehand.

There are times when asking the hrose to stretch down long and low when the ride might widen her hands and lower them quite a lot, but this is to follow the horse down, as it reaches down and forward, not trying to hold the horse down, and the hands should then follow the horse back up and return to a bent elbow position in the second part of the stretch.


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## HorsesAreMyPassion (Feb 16, 2012)

Also remember that your elbows should feel loose and elastic, not locked and stiff. In rising trot your elbow should open and close as you rise up and down. If your elbows are locked your hands will go up and down as you rise and sit. Your hands should stay in place and your elbows should open and close like a hinge.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

HorsesAreMyPassion said:


> Also remember that your elbows should feel loose and elastic, not locked and stiff. In rising trot your elbow should open and close as you rise up and down. If your elbows are locked your hands will go up and down as you rise and sit. Your hands should stay in place and your elbows should open and close like a hinge.


 
this! this! This!

I SO struggle with this. My instructor pointed out with me that I do not have a soft enough elbow and when I put some focus on it, the horse felt different and moved better. How little it takes to come off as "locked" in the elbow. In fact, the elbow is where a lot of the give and take happens. A rider might kind of "freesze" her elbow for a sec in a half halt or other transition. It really helps to think of your elbow as being connected to your physical core and that through the elbow to hand to bit, you recycle the horse's energy back through your core to it's hind end.
Charles Dekunfy talks a lot about the elbow defining the seat to the horse. Not something I fully understand , though.


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## HorsesAreMyPassion (Feb 16, 2012)

I find it very difficult to explain, Tinyliny, you did a good job of explaining it better than I could have, once you get the hang of the feeling for it it gets easier.


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## crimsonsky (Feb 18, 2011)

ime, if i bring my shoulder blades back/together i am unable to lock my elbows, thereby allowing a much softer following contact with the horse's mouth.


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## Cheyennes mom (Aug 6, 2010)

Thanks a lot again guys  so I rode western today because I just realised that I have a new bit that I was going to ride in for this show and I hadn't used in in like ever. So I rode two handed first to get cheyenne's head set before I went to one hand like I would in a show. Anyway hen I went two handed my elbows were bent perfectly. No idea why but my elbows and hands were in perfect position. So I have no idea why they're so low in english at all...really weird.

And just because I'm pleased and I NEED to share this: cheyenne was AMAZING when I went one handed. By the end of the ride I just needed to lift my hand up and her head was down and she was collected. It was amazing! So proud of her, neither of us knew how to do this before the ride so I got my instructor out there to give me a couple tips and once I got the hang of it I kept doing it and I was sooooo pleased. Just thought i'd share because it made me so happy  I'll see if I can get pictures at the show tomorrow of us


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

StellaIW said:


> Someone was talking about having ha 90 degree angle in your elbow - that only works if the horse is collected enough.


No where was anyone addressing the elbows have to be 90 degrees.

If you were referring to my post, I said "See the angle of the elbow, it's closer to 90 degrees than 180 (flat)..........If you throw your arms away, you can't easily engage your core and take advantage of your seat."

Which is exactly what tinyliny addressed when she said "and have you arms way out in front of you, locked in a straight line. That would be incorrect."

There has to be bend in your elbow, in order you to be soft and giving, rather than being yanked around or leaning on your reins or worse pulling your horse into a forced headset. 

OP, I'm glad you're figuring it out! It's so nice when things come together.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

That will be nice to see your show photos. I am going to do a podunk local show this summer, but I have NO show clothes, so it wont' be fancy. And I can only do the very lowest dressage levels. But, I'll give it a go.

maybe you sit more upright in your western saddle, which encourages one to keep their elbows to the core more.


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## Back2Horseback (Mar 21, 2012)

StellaIW said:


> I agree with tinylily!
> 
> This is how I hold my hands,


I agree as well with TinyLiny's description of position, and have to add that based on the above photos, I think your arm position is lovely and exemplary of just that description of angle/"line" from elbow/forearm/wrist/through bit; appears perfect! 

IMO very good riding to emulate for anyone in this discipline! Not only that, but your vertical body position appears to be about "perfect" as well! Shoulder in alignment with hip down through heel...a lovely position to emulate!:thumbsup:


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## Cheyennes mom (Aug 6, 2010)

So I got videos of my show on youtube that you can critique (nicely please)
First one is in a Road Hack class 
Second one is English Pleasure


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Can't see much as it's so far away. A few times when you passed by pretty close I though you looked really good! nice turnout, too.


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## Cheyennes mom (Aug 6, 2010)

Yeah my mom couldn't figure out how to zoom on the camera  Thanks though  Were my hands in the right place-ish that you could see?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

really could not see, but my overall impression was of a rider who was really put together well! How did the show go? How did YOU feel about it?


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Cheyennes mom said:


> Thanks a lot again guys  so I rode western today because I just realised that I have a new bit that I was going to ride in for this show and I hadn't used in in like ever. So I rode two handed first to get cheyenne's head set before I went to one hand like I would in a show. Anyway hen I went two handed my elbows were bent perfectly. No idea why but my elbows and hands were in perfect position. So I have no idea why they're so low in english at all...really weird.
> 
> And just because I'm pleased and I NEED to share this: cheyenne was AMAZING when I went one handed. By the end of the ride I just needed to lift my hand up and her head was down and she was collected. It was amazing! So proud of her, neither of us knew how to do this before the ride so I got my instructor out there to give me a couple tips and once I got the hang of it I kept doing it and I was sooooo pleased. Just thought i'd share because it made me so happy  I'll see if I can get pictures at the show tomorrow of us


I am a western rider so I shouldn't even be posting here, but I personally have noticed that with a curb bit I keep my hands higher than with a snaffle. It's almost like with a snaffle I am trying to compensate for the lack of a shank by lowering my hands. And then in a curb I don't have to compensate so I ride "normal." I don't know if you were riding in a curb for western, but that is what came to mind when I read your post.


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## Cheyennes mom (Aug 6, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> really could not see, but my overall impression was of a rider who was really put together well! How did the show go? How did YOU feel about it?


Thanks so much!  I thought the show went quite well compared to my previous shows. I'm very pleased that I've finally got my collection for the most part...my transitions need a bit of work, especially staying collected throughout them, buti thought cheyenne and I were doing a lot better than we used to and we're finally starting to work as a team  so I'm quite pleased with it  another thing is that chey and I weren't galloping instead of cantering, that's a step-up haha


trailhorserider said:


> I am a western rider so I shouldn't even be posting here, but I personally have noticed that with a curb bit I keep my hands higher than with a snaffle. It's almost like with a snaffle I am trying to compensate for the lack of a shank by lowering my hands. And then in a curb I don't have to compensate so I ride "normal." I don't know if you were riding in a curb for western, but that is what came to mind when I read your post.


Oh yes, that would make sense...in english I've been using a kimberwick bit and western I've been using a ported shank so that would make a lot of sense with the shank in' there.  thanks


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## Cheyennes mom (Aug 6, 2010)

Is this about right? this was me and my project horse yesterday:


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Cheyennes mom said:


> Is this about right? this was me and my project horse yesterday:


Hands, pretty good. Though since she has that running martingale on, the elbow line is broken (but not as important as her carrying herself correctly via back.)

Legs? Too far forward.


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## Cheyennes mom (Aug 6, 2010)

Skyseternalangel said:


> Hands, pretty good. Though since she has that running martingale on, the elbow line is broken (but not as important as her carrying herself correctly via back.)
> 
> Legs? Too far forward.


 Thanks, this is my project horse, Maverick. I was actually told that I ride him better than I ride my horse, Cheyenne which is kind of strange since I've been riding this one for about a month and Cheyenne for two years...Anyway.

As for leg placement, I've had a MAJOR chair seat for the past two years so considering that, that picture is pretty decent comparing. Anyway, in this picture my legs are too far back right?


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Cheyennes mom said:


> Thanks, this is my project horse, Maverick. I was actually told that I ride him better than I ride my horse, Cheyenne which is kind of strange since I've been riding this one for about a month and Cheyenne for two years...Anyway.
> 
> As for leg placement, I've had a MAJOR chair seat for the past two years so considering that, that picture is pretty decent comparing. Anyway, in this picture my legs are too far back right?


No actually that looks good!

You ride more in the H/J style, correct? So your stirrups are shorter but you still want your HIP to be in line with your HEEL. And in that picture, that is accomplished. Only tweak would be your upper body. You want your shoulders to be back and your chest to be open and then most likely your shoulder would be in line with your HIP and HEEL too.

Also if you need a few tips to get a good position:


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Skyseternalangel said:


> ...You ride more in the H/J style, correct? So your stirrups are shorter but you still want your HIP to be in line with your HEEL...


I don't think that is correct. I've ridden English, but am mostly western-style in an Aussie saddle...however, as I understand it, you center of gravity should be above your stirrup in jumping. That would typically place your hips aft, and your shoulders forward a bit.

This picture of General Patton riding is one I saved because it seemed a good example:










That is mid-jump, but the idea would be the same, I think, on the flats - only much less so. But please remember - I'm not a part of the hunt/jump world! I don't jump or compete, so I could be way off base.


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## Cheyennes mom (Aug 6, 2010)

Skysesternalangel- Well I show in English Equitation/pleasure. I've done H/J 5 times I think? Something like that. I've been good in it because of how forward I can be when I ride sometimes. The reason why my stirrups were short was because I was jumping that day. Was my upper body position good in the first picture?

thanks for the replies!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

In the above picture your feet are not really too far back, but it looks like you are pulling your leg back to put it on the hrose at the very moment the photo was shot. I can see the stirrup leather at an angle backward. If the saddle is well balanced to begin with and sits balanced on the horse's back, the stirrup leather will hang vertical when your leg is correctly placed, or very close to vertical. Of course , sometimes you might bring your leg back to put it on further back than near the girth, if , for example , you are asking the hrose to move its' hind over sideways.

looking at that saddle, it looks like your stirrups are one notch too short. the angle of you knee does not point to the outtermost rounded part of the knee flap area (sorry, I don't remember the correct words). Yours is pointing above this point, instead of a couple of inches lower, where the curve is at its largest outter arc.

If you dropped the stirrups one, and put more weight downward into the stirrup, you would be aligned pretty nicely.

Next, stop rolling your lower back so much forward, putting too much arch in your lower back. Don't "pooch " your butt out, for lack of a nice word.

Close your fingers on the reins. put your thumbs on top so that your elbows will be tucked into your core and don't lean forward.

If you took English riding lessons, those would be the things your teacher would harp on you about, over and over until you did it by habit. I like the way you look up and seem to ride very softly and well balanced, and sympathetick to the horse's mouth. this is something that is so very important and when it's not there, the overall picture is one of tightness and stress .


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

OP do you have a certain style that you ride? I didn't want to assume, so I asked. Seeing that your upper half was slightly folded over instead of vertical my first thought was H/J rather than say Dressage. 


The first picture in your OP, or the picture on this page that you asked about before?

If it's the latter, it's better than your recent one (upper body) but your shoulders still could go a little farther back and down.. they seem to like to creep forward.

I'll have to switch pages to check on the other one.



bsms said:


> I don't think that is correct. I've ridden English, but am mostly western-style in an Aussie saddle...however, as I understand it, you center of gravity should be above your stirrup in jumping. That would typically place your hips aft, and your shoulders forward a bit.
> 
> This picture of General Patton riding is one I saved because it seemed a good example:
> 
> That is mid-jump, but the idea would be the same, I think, on the flats - only much less so. But please remember - I'm not a part of the hunt/jump world! I don't jump or compete, so I could be way off base.


I love your replies because you always bring out these really old school pictures 

I don't jump, but what I do know is your center of gravity is always above the saddle. Or if you jump really big, if the horse and saddle were to vanish, you'd land on your feet. Same thing applies in Dressage, and I'm guessing the same concept applies in many styles of English riding. Though don't quote me on that since I am new to this.

When you jump, you fold at the hips only instead of bring your entire body forward which would cause your legs to fly backward. I know that when I go in 2 point, my HIP and HEEL are in line and I don't lay my upper half on my horse's neck, I simply fold that upper half at my hip to follow my horse (and if I were to jump.. I think it'd be the same deal.)

Right? (Blind leading the blind.. but maybe jumpers can answer this?)

But I stand firm on the belief that Heel and Hip should be in line with one another.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Your martingale is adjusted way too short. The rings should easily reach the horse's throat latch.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

The first picture in the OP is at a strange angle but it seems that you have it right on all three areas: hands, upper body alignment, lower leg position.

But it's an odd angle so I can't really say for sure. 

Just remember that those elbows are very important part of riding. If you don't follow by opening and closing, you will not follow the horse as well and the horse may brace instead of being nice and loose.

Lovely turnout by the way!


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## Cheyennes mom (Aug 6, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> In the above picture your feet are not really too far back, but it looks like you are pulling your leg back to put it on the hrose at the very moment the photo was shot. I can see the stirrup leather at an angle backward. If the saddle is well balanced to begin with and sits balanced on the horse's back, the stirrup leather will hang vertical when your leg is correctly placed, or very close to vertical. Of course , sometimes you might bring your leg back to put it on further back than near the girth, if , for example , you are asking the hrose to move its' hind over sideways.
> 
> looking at that saddle, it looks like your stirrups are one notch too short. the angle of you knee does not point to the outtermost rounded part of the knee flap area (sorry, I don't remember the correct words). Yours is pointing above this point, instead of a couple of inches lower, where the curve is at its largest outter arc.
> 
> ...


 So for my stirrups, I was jumping that day which is why they were a bit shorter than normal.

As for rolling out my back, yeah that's something I have to get out of. In the picture that you quoted me on is a terrible example of that since he was hopping over the poles on the ground so I leaned forward a bit. I really just wanted to ask if that was proper leg position. The first picture on this page is a decent example of what I normally look like while riding (this horse anyway).

My leaning forward is SLOWLY getting better. The first picture on the page is, again, I think the best picture of what I normally look like in the trot and as you can see I'm not leaning forward much, if at all.

Thanks for the reply 


Skyseternalangel said:


> OP do you have a certain style that you ride? I didn't want to assume, so I asked. Seeing that your upper half was slightly folded over instead of vertical my first thought was H/J rather than say Dressage.
> 
> 
> The first picture in your OP, or the picture on this page that you asked about before?
> ...


 I ride a lot of things...English Equitation and pleasure and jumping as well. those are my english events but I do even more western stuff than english. the one english thing I DON'T do is dressage. I wouldn't be able to stand it...just not my thing.

As for the pictures, yes the first one on this page is definitely my best critique photo here since that's the way I normally look when I'm riding this horse. When I'm riding my horse, I probably look a bit different but I don't have any recent pictures of her and I so it's hard to tell.


Chiilaa said:


> Your martingale is adjusted way too short. The rings should easily reach the horse's throat latch.


 this martingale isn't adjustable I don't believe. It's not mine (neither is the horse) and I've never used one before so I was just told by the owner to use that one and how to put it on and use it properly. I don't really have anything else to say...that sort of tack isn't really my thing...I just take advise from the owner (my trainer) and use it. :/


Skyseternalangel said:


> The first picture in the OP is at a strange angle but it seems that you have it right on all three areas: hands, upper body alignment, lower leg position.
> 
> But it's an odd angle so I can't really say for sure.
> 
> ...


 Thank you


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

If it's not adjustable, or can't go any longer, I would not ride with it. It's not fair to the horse to use tack that doesn't fit it, in a manner that is incorrect. If you aren't the owner, well I would approach the owner about it. If they seem to think the horse needs it that short, then I would not want to continue training under them.


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## Cheyennes mom (Aug 6, 2010)

^^Thanks for your concern. I'll talk to the owner and we'll see.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

In re: Sky's and bsms's convo about position - 

In most English disciplines, the alginment of hip to heel stays constant even as the length of stirrup varies and the center of gravity changes. 

If you have a classical seat dressage rider at one end of the spectrum, and a flat race jockey at the other, with all the varieties of forward seat in the middle, hip and heel alignment stays constant. As the length of the stirrup leather shortens, the knee and hip angles close and the center of gravity moves forward. 

The exceptions to hip and heel aligment are situational - riding down hill or riding defensively over a drop fence.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

If the hip and heel are aligned with the shoulders forward of the hip, then how can the center of gravity be in line with the stirrups?

The first image below is from George Morris's book Hunter Seat Equitation. The second is pulled from a different book, but I think it also illustrates what I mean...



















My apologies for the poor quality, but in both, the stirrup looks to be at the center of gravity of both women. A straight line up has about equal parts of the body in front and behind the vertical line. This would indicate they are balanced above the stirrup, although that puts the hip a bit aft of the heel and the shoulders a bit in front of the stirrup.

If one goes to a greater extreme, then one gets to Gen Patton - folded body, but folded so that there is equal weight behind and in front of the stirrup - thus balanced and stable.










Although I don't jump, and normally use an Aussie-style saddle, I do find it helpful to balance with the stirrup at my center of gravity. At a walk, and with long stirrups, that puts me close to heel-hip-shoulder. At higher speeds, or with shorter stirrups, it would not.

In my limited experience, if my stirrup straps are vertical and my weight centered on them, then my leg doesn't flop all over. 

I'm not sure how this ties in to the original discussion, but it isn't uncommon for a thread to wander a little at times...

A jockey:


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

OP, hopefully the owner doesn't have a problem with it.. are you feeling over all better given the advice and critique you got of your hands and position (riding is sort of like a systems approach as similar in science) ?



bsms said:


> If the hip and heel are aligned with the shoulders forward of the hip, then how can the center of gravity be in line with the stirrups?


Are you disagreeing with your initial thought?



bsms said:


> ..however, as I understand it, you center of gravity should be above your stirrup in jumping.



Since I didn't say anything about stirrups being the center of gravity, nor did Maura. And it's alright if you are, not jumping on you or anything


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

I'm not sure what is meant by the stirrup being the center of gravity, so I can't address that. I'm not even sure how it became a point of discussion, since the OP was asking aout hand position. 

As far as the old photo of Patton, where it does appear that that his hip is behind the point of aligment with the heel, I suspect that has to do with the phase of the jump the photo was taken (not the top of the arc, but as the horse is descending) at as well as the angle of the photo. I feel certain that in other photos of this rider you would see the classic hip to heel alignment. 

As far as the other photos, the first one on the grey horse shows the rider with hip behind the heel, but the more modern photo and the jockey's photo show the hip - heel. Not sure what the first photo is supposed to illustrate, either here or in the book.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

I'm going to agree with BSMS here.

IMLE, my jumping and AP saddles put me in a bit of a chair seat if I run the stirrups longer as in long enough to be comfortable for flatwork.

As I run them up and take a more fwd seat, the balance changes to neutral with some of my body behind the leathers and some in front. Net effect my CG (somewhere in my abdomen) is right in a plumb line (or nearly so) with the stirrups leathers. And I see that, to a greater or a lesser degree, in all the photos he posted. Proof comes when I can canter in a two point position without needing to hold on to the mane, hang on the reins, or grip with my knees.

As far as hands, while I still don't get it right 100% of the time, my trainer constantly hammers the concepts of direct line from elbows to bit, hands vertical and together right above or slightly in front of the withers, and elbows supple and right above my hips (not chicken winging it). And the more I do it her way the more I realize how correct her advice is.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Maybe all of these irrelevant posts should be moved to a different thread?

:-|

And yes, mine included.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Since I participated in this thread, I will let another moderator make the decision of moving posts. 

I think what we have here are people using different terms to describe the same thing. There are no real divergent schools of though on this part of riding theory; I can't imagine that there's a real disagreement here. 

A rider should be balanced over their foot or stirrup for maximum security; I am baffled by the whole "stirrup as center of gravity" thing, but if that makes sense to someone else, okay, if that's what makes sense to you. I think everyone can agree that the rider should be in balance with the horse, and that as the horse moves faster, the center of gravity or balance point moves forward, so the rider must as well. The idea that ankle, knee and hip serve as shock absorbers for the horse's motion is a constant as well. The simplest way to summarize all these concepts may be this - look at a photo of a horse and rider. Mentally remove the horse - will the rider land on the ground, balanced over their feet, absorbing the landing in ankle, knee and hip? Good. Position's functionally correct. Will the rider tip forward or backward on landing, or fall forward or backward? Not good, not functionally correct. 










The man himself, George Morris, landing from a Grand Prix fence - extraodrinary forces at work here, yet if I "dissappeared" Sinjon, George would land on his feet.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

maura said:


> I am baffled by the whole "stirrup as center of gravity" thing


What I understood bsms to be saying is this: the rider's center of gravity is vertically aligned with the point of contact between the rider's foot and his stirrup.

If you look at the photo of Mr Morris you posted, it is so: a line extension of the stirrup leather passes right through the center (more or less) of his abdomen.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

maura said:


> I'm not sure what is meant by the stirrup being the center of gravity, so I can't address that. I'm not even sure how it became a point of discussion, since the OP was asking aout hand position...


In post 33, the OP further wrote:



Cheyennes mom said:


> ...
> 
> As for leg placement, I've had a MAJOR chair seat for the past two years so considering that, that picture is pretty decent comparing. Anyway, in this picture my legs are too far back right?


That is where the discussion shifted to include leg position.

mildot is correct about what I'm trying to say. The stirrup is normally very close to the center of gravity of the rider for English riding. The amount of weight the rider has in front of the stirrup should equal the weight behind it if the rider wants to be balanced with weight on the stirrup.

A chair seat describes when your center of gravity is behind the stirrups. If the horse was suddenly removed, you would not land standing - just as you would not if someone suddenly yanked a chair out from under you. But if your horse is likely to make many sudden stops, or many very sharp turns, or if you want to use a rope, then a chair seat helps - which is why many stock saddles, western and Australian, are designed to put you in a chair seat. It is good for working cattle. And many find it more comfortable, since it requires less physical effort from the rider (per Littauer).

But if you want your horse to go fast in a straight line, or to jump, you need to free up his back. For almost any kind of racing or speed events, and for any jumping, a chair seat hurts performance. Thus the forward seat. However, as you shorten the stirrups, you cannot maintain heel-hip alignment AND keep you weight balanced at the stirrup bars (and stirrups). 

If your weight is centered on the stirrups, your lower leg can be still and you are balanced. But with your hip and heel aligned, as you fold up, your body is now mostly forward of the stirrups and you must support your weight with the horse's neck - which is worse than supporting it with his back.

Perhaps this is a better racing picture:










A vertical line drawn from the stirrup splits the jockey in two. With just his toe in the stirrup, the length of his foot brings his heel closer to his hip, but there is not a vertical line from his heel to hip.

An advantage, and this brings us back to the original post, is that if your weight is balanced over the stirrup, then you won't use the reins for support. You don't need them to balance, because you ARE balanced.

In the OP's picture, the stirrup leathers are bent at an odd angle. If you estimate where her stirrup bars are, then her weight is a little behind the stirrup bars, which is normal at that pace. If I get my stirrup leathers bent like that, it usually means I am gripping with my knees and not letting my weight fall uninterrupted into my heels - but I don't know if that is true of the OP. I tend to be a bad 'knee-gripper', myself.

My point is that riding is about balance. Hip-heel (or hip-heel-shoulder) discussions are static. Trying to make a hip-heel (or HHS) alignment focuses on the wrong aspect of riding, and may have nothing to do with balance.

And the more the body needs to fold, the less the hip and heel can be aligned with balance. If the stirrup straps hang straight down, and the rider's body is centered on the stirrups, then the rider is well balanced for speed or jumping.

English saddles meant for jumping put the stirrup bars further forward to allow the rider to balance over them at speed or in a jump. A dressage saddle will put it further back, because dressage horses aren't being raced - so the horse's center of gravity is further back. A western saddle often hangs the stirrups further forward, but that is because having weight further back (chair seat) is good when you rope a steer.

Per my signature, having the right balance for the task at hand is what we need to focus on - not alignment of our body parts. The biggest fault of most of the riding books I own is that they focus on rider position and not rider balance. One of the wonderful things about practicing a two point, even in a western saddle, is that you MUST focus on balance and moving with the horse. 

For the OP question in post 33, the best answer, IMHO, are questions:

"*a) are you in fluid balance and rhythm with your horse or not? 

b) does your seat enable you to control your horse efficiently?" 

- V.S. Littauer*


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

BSMS I don't think anyone is disputing that there can be situations to be out of a hip-heel alignment. However, the OP is specifically talking about English Equitation. That DOES require a hip-heel alignment.


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## Cheyennes mom (Aug 6, 2010)

Skyseternalangel said:


> OP, hopefully the owner doesn't have a problem with it.. are you feeling over all better given the advice and critique you got of your hands and position (riding is sort of like a systems approach as similar in science) ?


 I think so...I'm hoping to get more pictures up once the weather is nice and my mom'll come take some of me for a new critique.
Thanks for helping me 


Skyseternalangel said:


> Maybe all of these irrelevant posts should be moved to a different thread?
> 
> :-|
> 
> And yes, mine included.


 that'd be nice  I guess I don't really mind having the posts in here since I'm pretty much ignoring them anyway but they are pretty irrelevent haha


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Cheyennes mom said:


> I think so...I'm hoping to get more pictures up once the weather is nice and my mom'll come take some of me for a new critique.
> Thanks for helping me


You're welcome  It's nice when we all help each other out. I'm still learning myself


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## Cheyennes mom (Aug 6, 2010)

^^You can never stop learning I guess  So many things to learn


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