# Falling Off, For Nerds



## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Recent fun discussions on Why I Gotta Trot and Krones & Kodgers aka 60's or Thereabouts resulted in this piece.

To Isaac Newton, with love. 

Just a little aside about falling off horses.










Using Newtonian physics, we can break down the fall into a horizontal component and a vertical component.

Horizontally, the rider continues in the direction taken at parting from the horse. In the absence of atmospheric friction and gravity, the rider would continue at the same speed and in the same direction indefinitely, or until another force was applied.

Of course, real-life riders have to contend with both atmospheric friction, and gravity. So, in the horizontal component of the fall, the rider is actually decelerating because of atmospheric friction. How much depends on headwinds, tailwinds and atmospheric pressure, which in turn is affected by altitude. It also depends on the surface area of the leading edge of the rider, and the surface characteristics of the rider's attire - lycra is bad for slowing down, fluffy microfibre much better.

In the vertical component of the fall, the rider is accelerating towards the ground at 9.8m per second per second, less the braking effected by atmospheric friction, as already discussed above. Use might be made of a parachute to increase the braking effect of atmospheric friction, especially if there was an upwards component in the motion of the rider after parting from the horse, like this:











This is because parachutes take time to inflate, which is more generously afforded by increased distance from the ground at t=0.

Alternative options using increased surface area for more efficient friction braking include this, which also introduces an additional sideways gliding component:











We are attempting to decrease the force of the fall, which depends on the height from which we fall (Shetlands are safer than Clydesdales), the velocity acquired by the rider before parting from the horse (slipping right off the other side when attempting to mount bareback is comparatively safe, especially with a pony), the efficiency or otherwise of atmospheric friction in slowing us down (artificially increasing surface area and wearing high-friction clothing help, as does trying to fall in the direction of a headwind), the mass of the rider (F=ma, so children indeed feel it less), the elasticity of the rider as an object (children are better for this too; it helps if you can bounce, as this redirects some of the force stored temporarily as elastic potential energy into kinetic energy), the landing terrain characteristics (elastic? rigid? crumply? ... a deep bed of autumn leaves is ideal, as is a deep layer of soft fluffy snow - I can thoroughly recommend the latter from personal experience), etc.

One more important concept from classical mechanics that can help us here is that we can spread out the impact force over a longer time interval, and absorb shock in other materials, if we want to have a better experience. This is why we have crumple zones in cars, or crash helmets lined with crushable materials - to absorb the shock. We've already seen a bit of this when discussing landing terrain characteristics; now we can apply it to rider surface characteristics. In harness and TB racing, people now wear body armour vests to help protect them in falls:











This one looks more heavy-duty:











This one is inflatable:











This one is traditional, but doesn't have good crumple zones, as it was really designed for another purpose:











And this is a Cyberman:










Just thought I'd throw that one in!


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## JoBlueQuarter (Jan 20, 2017)

:rofl: I love this post, SueC!!


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

As usual, it's the high rate of deceleration that causes the pain, so the more you can control your deceleration ("tuck and roll" vs. "stretch and brace" or "plonk"), the smaller the stress forces on your body.

The model breaks down if one foot remains lodged in the stirrup, so an extension is required, as friction will no longer be negligible. In particular, we are dealing with _sliding friction_, which creates a force which seeks to cause your body to stop moving against the ground. Most likely, it will be overcome easily by the horse, especially if it is frightened. In any case, the sliding friction forces will cause a stress on your body, to which it will respond by being strained: simply speaking, it will cause your body, especially the tissue in the leg remaining in the stirrup and in contact with the ground, to deform. This can lead to catastrophic failure of the material.

A further complication can occur if parts of your body get entangled in an object, such as a rock. This will result in another collision (after your initial collision with the planet) and a commensurate transfer of momentum. The rock, as well as you, will experience a change in velocity which makes the sum of the momenta (mass times velocity) before the collision equal to the sum of the momenta after. But what is a change in velocity? Acceleration. And what causes a mass to accelerate? A force. To make a long story short, either you will flick the rock out of the way, or the rock will flick you out of the way - that is in the case of an elastic collision (pool balls, skull, etc.). It is more likely that, again, the force on you will cause a strain (deformation) of your body, which is how you rupture your internal organs.

Unless your ankle already suffered catastrophic failure, or you degloved your foot (flip-flops). Then the sliding friction will bring you to a halt quickly and you can avoid further injury.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

mmshiro said:


> The model breaks down if one foot remains lodged in the stirrup, so an extension is required, as friction will no longer be negligible.


This one was enlightening to me...I've always heard to wear boots with a heel for stirrup safety, etc., but this guy got caught between the stirrup leathers. 
Somehow he got off with a concussion. (Edit: correction, he did break his collarbone and coccyx too).
'I thought this was it': Horrifying moment jockey was knocked out and dragged 200 yards by his horse | Daily Mail Online


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

SueC said:


>


I suspect this outfit would actually work as a great falling _preventative_ for me with my horses - as none would let me get close enough to even mount!

:rofl:


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

phantomhorse13 said:


> I suspect this outfit would actually work as a great falling _preventative_ for me with my horses - as none would let me get close enough to even mount!
> 
> :rofl:


This is the riding outfit I have been yearning for without knowing it. Next time my pony tosses me to the invisible horse-eating monster I am going to fly after his tail...wont he be surprised


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

I have found in practice that maximum protection to internal organs when the abrupt force encountered with the impact of sudden deceleration following the acceleration due to the departure from the saddle is achieved by maintaining an adequate layer of adipose tissue over the abdomen. (aka beer gut) The sacral and pelvic bones can also be protected by maintaining similar layers of adipose tissue over the gluteal muscles. 

On the other hand, since force = mass X acceleration, there is the possibility that the increase in mass that said adipose tissue adds may increase the actual force applied to the falling object (aka you) and effectively negate the advantage of said adipose tissue.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

gottatrot said:


> This one was enlightening to me...I've always heard to wear boots with a heel for stirrup safety, etc., but this guy got caught between the stirrup leathers.
> Somehow he got off with a concussion. (Edit: correction, he did break his collarbone and coccyx too).
> 'I thought this was it': Horrifying moment jockey was knocked out and dragged 200 yards by his horse | Daily Mail Online


Man! That's a bad thing to happen! Amazing he got away with relatively light injuries... :shock:




phantomhorse13 said:


> I suspect this outfit would actually work as a great falling _preventative_ for me with my horses - as none would let me get close enough to even mount!
> 
> :rofl:


I was going to say, "And this outfit comes in a range of colours to suit a range of personalities." But I'm pretty sure that's totally academic when I'm talking to you, because I'm pretty sure you'd go for a nice shade of red! ;-)




AnitaAnne said:


> This is the riding outfit I have been yearning for without knowing it. Next time my pony tosses me to the invisible horse-eating monster I am going to fly after his tail...wont he be surprised


:rofl: And once you get hold of that tail (albeit with your teeth), that'd be a new form of hang-gliding, surely! I can just imagine it!

What colour for you, AnitaAnne? Or will that be a range of colours to go with different saddles in your extensive collection? ;-)




Celeste said:


> I have found in practice that maximum protection to internal organs when the abrupt force encountered with the impact of sudden deceleration following the acceleration due to the departure from the saddle is achieved by maintaining an adequate layer of adipose tissue over the abdomen. (aka beer gut) The sacral and pelvic bones can also be protected by maintaining similar layers of adipose tissue over the gluteal muscles.
> 
> On the other hand, since force = mass X acceleration, there is the possibility that the increase in mass that said adipose tissue adds may increase the actual force applied to the falling object (aka you) and effectively negate the advantage of said adipose tissue.


:cheers: _Excellent_, Celeste!!! You can be my drinking buddy for nerd talk anytime. Will you have cider? Perhaps perry - as pear cider is very smooth? Or fresh cow's milk?


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## EquineBovine (Sep 6, 2012)

And this is why I hate physics :rofl:


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

:rofl::rofl::rofl::iagree:To all of the above. Now we need a thread that discusses the actual amount of rise a horse achieves when throwing a rider out of the saddle vs the perceived amount of rise.....

The backstory to that being my child was asked to ride my draft mare that has been on extended holiday due to my time restraints (two jobs that somehow merged into one at triple the hours I originally signed on for either). He very happily took her out thinking he would be off on the trails and jumping a log or two. I insisted on a warm up in the pen. She decided to show her displeasure at being ridden even after begging to be haltered and taken out, groomed extensively and even attempting to help saddle herself. She showed this displeasure with not even 1 foot of rise in a half hearted crow hop. He swore her back legs came above his head and now he's set for the rodeo riding championships. I had video to back me up. I hate to see what he thinks he'll have jumped when in reality the logs around here are 2 foot max. I have taken her over 5 foot fences and felt like we cleared the Empire State Building.


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## mkmurphy81 (May 8, 2015)

I just tested these theories, and the law of gravity is still in effect.

There's another use for the coefficient of static friction. When the horse suddenly gains horizontal momentum in a direction perpendicular to the line of travel, the coefficient of static friction attempts to keep the rider on the horse. If that frictional force is not strong enough, the coefficient of sliding friction comes into play. Since the coefficient of sliding friction is less than the coefficient of static friction, this force will not be enough to stop the eventual parting of horse and rider, especially if the horse continues in the perpendicular direction. The force of sliding friction is simply enough to allow the rider a few moments to realize that the fall is coming and to realize there is nothing that can stop it.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

@QtrBel It could be that you are both correct and that there was a glitch in the space time continuum. 

Or it could involve the uncertainty principle that German physicist Werner Heisenberg discussed. (The more precisely the position of some particle is determined, the less precisely its momentum can be known, and vice versa.)


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

mkmurphy81 said:


> I just tested these theories, and the law of gravity is still in effect...........
> The force of sliding friction is simply enough to allow the rider a few moments to realize that the fall is coming and to realize there is nothing that can stop it.


For that moment, time slows down. The increase in time allows for your sympathetic nervous system to slowly process your upcoming and inevitable contact with the ground. Time does not, however, slow down enough to allow you to correct the sliding friction........ 

:falloff::falloff::falloff:


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

@*QtrBel*: :rofl: We need a new coefficient to express this concept mathematically: _The Coefficient of Mental Amplification_ perhaps. Although I imagine this isn't a constant value, but different for different observers and also depending on the situation. :falloff:
@*mkmurphy81* : :rofl: Wonderful! I particularly liked this bit: _When the horse suddenly gains horizontal momentum in a direction perpendicular to the line of travel... _:clap:

@*Celeste* : :rofl: Very astute application of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle! :bowwdown:

...now surely we need to put our heads together and invent Schrödinger's Horse...


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## mkmurphy81 (May 8, 2015)

I think Schrödinger's Horse is for sale on Craigslist. I'm sure you've all seen him. "Bombproof, great with kids, knows the barrels, can rope off him, 3 year old stud." 

If the horse bucks off his rider after an average of 15 minutes, and a perspective buyer tries him for 15 minutes (while you avoid watching), is the rider on or off the horse? Both?


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Celeste said:


> For that moment, time slows down. The increase in time allows for your sympathetic nervous system to slowly process your upcoming and inevitable contact with the ground. Time does not, however, slow down enough to allow you to correct the sliding friction........
> 
> :falloff::falloff::falloff:



I like this!!! And am thinking about time dilation. According to that, the greater the velocity of the horse, the more time slows down for the rider/horse combination. I've simplified the concept here, but you know what I mean. Anyhow, according to this, the greater the rider's velocity at the time of parting from the horse, the more time slows down for him/her relative to the observer's frame of reference. ;-)

Although from personal experience (yeah I know, n=1 is merely a preliminary study) the psychological component here would seem to outweigh the actual effects on time by many magnitudes...


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

mkmurphy81 said:


> I think Schrödinger's Horse is for sale on Craigslist. I'm sure you've all seen him. "Bombproof, great with kids, knows the barrels, can rope off him, 3 year old stud."
> 
> If the horse bucks off his rider after an average of 15 minutes, and a perspective buyer tries him for 15 minutes (while you avoid watching), is the rider on or off the horse? Both?


:rofl: Brilliant! ..._Help_! I'm going to rupture my diaphragm! :dance-smiley05:


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

You brilliant people are amazing! I know nothing about time dilation but I do know when Horsey and I part company, never my idea, time does seem to move slowly and I think of all the things I should have done, not smart enough to figure out how to gather myself for the landing and as impact draws near I think "Oh man, this is going to hurt".

I love reading your theories.


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

Celeste said:


> @*QtrBel* It could be that you are both correct and that there was a glitch in the space time continuum.


Ah, and here I was thinking since the horse in question is a draft, perhaps the human was suffering delusions from altitude sickness..


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

phantomhorse13 said:


> Ah, and here I was thinking since the horse in question is a draft, perhaps the human was suffering delusions from altitude sickness..


LOL! That is great!! :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

And my husband wants to know how a _Draft_ affects the _wind_ direction... :shock:


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

This was a nasty fall, haven't a clue how the jockey was. 







I maintain that the best thing about falling is to do it often when bodies are young, that way you learn how to fall. You can read all you like but practise makes perfect!


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

My own most spectacular experiment in this field (it could have been any field, but this field was in Texas.) involved the sudden deceleration and loss of altitude of the front end of the horse, coupled with the gain of altitude and continued momentum of the rear end of the horse, resulting in the slight gain of both altitude and velocity of the rider from the catapult effect of the cantleboard. 


The second phase of the experiment involved the comparative rolling velocities of two objects with differing circumferences. My theory was that the larger object would have a faster velocity than the smaller object, but would lose velocity faster due to the larger surface area affected by friction. The smaller object should roll at less velocity, but for more distance due to the smaller area affected by friction. 


The first part of that theory proved true. The second part could not be proven due to the larger object rolling over top of the smaller object, effectively stopping all forward motion of the smaller object. 


I am still looking for volunteers to assist me in testing the second part of that theory. I will take the measurements this time.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Foxhunter said:


> I maintain that the best thing about falling is to do it often when bodies are young, that way you learn how to fall. You can read all you like but practise makes perfect!


I think that's right; and just for interest, my husband did Kendo and Judo for many years and says that one of the chief things drilled into martial arts beginners is learning how to fall correctly - roll, don't prop on your elbow, etc - even though you're only falling on softish mats. Also how to have a bit of balance to it so you can get up ASAP after falling, preferably in a fluid motion.

I'd hate to have to learn how to fall as an adult - and if I had to, I'd probably practice it on mats first instead of off a horse. And things are a little less elastic these days when I fall, compared to when I was a kid. ;-)

Maybe people should have formal falling-off lessons as part of their riding lessons - and practice on mats first, and then off barrels onto mats etc. ;-) 

:falloff:


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Cordillera Cowboy said:


> My own most spectacular experiment in this field (it could have been any field, but this field was in Texas.) involved the sudden deceleration and loss of altitude of the front end of the horse, coupled with the gain of altitude and continued momentum of the rear end of the horse, resulting in the slight gain of both altitude and velocity of the rider from the catapult effect of the cantleboard.
> 
> 
> The second phase of the experiment involved the comparative rolling velocities of two objects with differing circumferences. My theory was that the larger object would have a faster velocity than the smaller object, but would lose velocity faster due to the larger surface area affected by friction. The smaller object should roll at less velocity, but for more distance due to the smaller area affected by friction.
> ...


:rofl: I am laughing at the award-worthy description - but definitely not at the incident. Were you badly hurt? Someone I knew was galloping across a field of grass when the horse went down in a concealed ditch - horse's rear end hit the rider - rider got a shatter fracture of the collar bone. That was getting away lightly, but the large object wasn't rolling on top of the smaller object in this case. :shock:




> I am still looking for volunteers to assist me in testing the second part of that theory. *I will take the measurements this time.*


Can't fault that logic! :smile: How big a sample size are you looking for, for this study? ;-)

I wonder, how could subjects be attracted to the experiment? How will the traps be baited?


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Tom, when I first had him, did all he could to either drop me or frighten me into dismounting. It never worked and, after a few weeks, he wears much better and I could pony from him. 

His owner and I had been out Fox Hunting and had a good active day, next day I only needed to give the two a good leg stretch. They had different ideas and were acting like they had been shut in formsox weeks and this was the first day out. 

Me being me just kicked on and ended up taking them some distance. Tom was an idiot but not disrespectful. After a good hour of fairly fast work and several 'incidents' I was heading home. I opened and closed a gate leading into a field that had had kale for the dairy cows growing in it. It was muddy and the track along the bottom sloppy liquid gloop. When doing the gate Melody was on my right, the lower side of the track. I started to canter and as we headed towards the gate I took a haul on the reins knowing that Tom had every intention of jumping it. At this point Melody nipped him, as I was coming back into the saddle he bucked bringing his back end up and stopped dead. I was booted back out the saddle, dropped Melody who galloped off up the hill,. I was catapulted over Tom's neck. I must have done a hand stand on his neck and I ended up standing facing him. 

What had me in stitches was the look on his face, he was so shocked that I was on the deck. Having tried all he knew and failed all he had done was hump amd stop and I had dismounted. 

Melody came galloping back having got down and rolled both sides whilst out of sight! 

The liquid gloop had splashed up between my legs so I had a very uncomfortable ride home.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

@SueC It puts you below the head winds and above the tail winds.....


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

I think I've liked every post. Just let me say while continuing to read and spewing coffee all over the keyboard I will continue to like all the posts but it may just be in my head...


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## mkmurphy81 (May 8, 2015)

Foxhunter said:


> I maintain that the best thing about falling is to do it often when bodies are young, that way you learn how to fall. You can read all you like but practise makes perfect!


That's very true! When I fell yesterday for the first time in 20 years (I was being stupid), I hit rear end first and rolled to my back. My head never hit the ground. I didn't have to think about it. It's just muscle memory from all the practice I had as a kid.

For those keeping up with the experimental data, I believe the soreness the following day increases proportionally with the age of the projectile (AKA rider).


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

:falloff:I forgot to mention absolutely no protection from windshear or microbursts... The smiley should be flying sideways BTW


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

_Not sure if I wrote this in my journal or not._

We had a boarding school that rode weekdays with us. Usually Miss Fleming took the juniors but on this beautiful spring morning I had the ride.

We went down to the beach, the tide was well out. The eight girls were all off a lead rein and cantering quite happily. 

I had seven walking in a large circle and sent the first rider cantering along the sand. There were three breakwaters which could be jumped or gone around. 
The first set off and headed for a jump. I sent the second rider off only to see the pony had stopped and the first rider had gone over her head and was sitting on the wet sand. The second rider joined her. 

The cause was that the other side was a stream which looked odd with the sun shining on it. 
Neither girl was hurt, just wet. They remounted and before I could sent them off I heard yelling. 

The others had stopped circling and one pony had got down to roll, she had jumped off and lost her balance and sat down. Another pony had wandered into the sea and his rider was hysterical with not being able to swim so her friend jumped off her pony and waded in to lead her pony out. Before she got to the pony the girl jumped off. 

Two more ponies got down to roll, two more wet children. 

I had them all remount with the stern words vibrating in their ears, "If any of you cry you will lead your ponies back to the school!" 

They didn't dare cry. I found this sort of thing funny and laughter was soon spread through them all.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Overnight I was thinking about this item of apparel:










I'd never seen this particular type of rider body armour before doing a little research for the original post, although you commonly find similar things for sailors.

It struck me that this type would have a dual-purpose application in showjumping:










1) Inflatable body armour for conventional falls
2) Assisting non-swimmers falling into water jumps

It is marginally more elegant than this:










The traditional solution requires the employment of additional ground staff:


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

SueC said:


> :rofl: I am laughing at the award-worthy description - but definitely not at the incident. Were you badly hurt? Someone I knew was galloping across a field of grass when the horse went down in a concealed ditch - horse's rear end hit the rider - rider got a shatter fracture of the collar bone. That was getting away lightly, but the large object wasn't rolling on top of the smaller object in this case. :shock:
> 
> 
> Can't fault that logic! :smile: How big a sample size are you looking for, for this study? ;-)
> ...


To the surprise of all, horse, rider, and saddle, all escaped harm. 


I haven't yet found any volunteers. I suspect that baited traps would disqualify me from any potential Nobel Prize.


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## SwissMiss (Aug 1, 2014)

:rofl: I just discovered this thread and (almost) spewed my espresso all over the keyboard :rofl:


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

My mother only learned, as a child, to ride bareback at which she was jolly good. Put her in a saddle and she was all over the place. 

One Sunday she came to the stables amd decided to ride with us. She had on a pair of black slacks, a reversible black and light grey anorak. Her shoes weren't suitable so she put on a pair of yellow rubber boots. 

Now in all my years of riding only _twice_ has she ever reacted to my injuries the rest she usually just laughed at. We were returning home after a couple of hours, a nice steady canter up a slope and for some reason the Pony she was riding decided to buck. Mum went sailing, it was so funny the nearest thing to a flying penguin ever. 

It was so good to get a revenge laugh.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

I once met a rider who claimed they had never fallen off :eek_color: here I was under the impression that falling off was required with any style of riding! No _real rider_ never falls, right?? 

In trying to work out a theory of relative horse velocity and force of ground impact as related to size of steed and the additional variables with regard to age and weight of rider; I chose to use strictly myself as the test subject. Having numerous unplanned dismounts from numerous mounts, I felt I was eminently qualified. 

The age of rider was eliminated shortly after the start of this research. Younger riders do appear to recover quicker, however age in of itself has not been proved to be the only factor involved. Younger riders are generally comprised of more flexible joints and have less emotional and physical damage to contend with. Not to mention younger riders are bereft of common sense and their own mortality. 

1) Size of horse
*Larger draft/draft cross/warmblood type horses* have the ability to toss most any size rider with a wide angle vertical and horizontal trajectory. For a visual will term this the* Fly-ball method*. Size of rider does not seem to affect outcome of statistical measurement. 

Advantage: Adequate time to take mental inventory of the safety equipment worn or not worn :frown_color: and plenty of time to view the proposed landing site and consider a strategy to survive the landing

Disadvantage: Landing is similar to a meteor crashing into earth. The site of impact is easily discernable to all other riders in the area. Recovery time after landing is delayed lasting average of 7 days before painless walking can be achieved. 

*Smaller horses* although seemingly able to do less damage related to vertical force, are quite capable and in fact appear to be more willing to attempt slinging their riders like a shot-put thus equaling and at times surpassing the horizontal reach of their larger cohorts. Will term this the *Fast-ball method* 

Advantage: Gravitational pull is weaker. Less time to mentally scold self. 

Disadvantage: No time to prepare for landing or view landing pad. Point of impact is sudden thud followed by uncontrolled slide over uncertain terrain. 

2) Weight of rider. This is a multifaceted factor and complicated to determine related to one very simple cause; *lying about ones weight*. 

While in theory the extra padding of the rider with more Romanesque proportions should in fact offer some additional protection, this has not proven to be the case. Possibly the subcutaneous adipose tissue amplifies the force as opposed to reducing the force. Will call this the *Jello effect*. 

Advantage: Horse may have more difficulty initiating launch of rider and may perform less frequent launches. (crosses fingers) Possible for bone breakage to be decreased in frequency for larger riders. 

Disadvantage: Once launched, mass of rider will proportionally increase force of landing and length of slide. Hematomas more prevalent and larger than on those skinny twig riders. Decreased ability to mount aforementioned steed after event. Embarrassment to rider increased when EMTs call for unit with oversized gurney :redface:

This study is of course inherently flawed as only one test subject was used and was the same as the tester. So some bias may be expected. This is an ongoing study as the test subject has not yet learned to stay off of equines that like to play ball :icon_rolleyes: perhaps some brain damage has occurred over the years???


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

Anita like and double like, very informative, should I test some of these theories or just take your word as the expert?


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## QueenofFrance08 (May 16, 2017)

@AnitaAnne I agree with your short horse theory since I broke my collar bone falling off an ahem.... miniature horse last year.

@SueC DH has a black belt in Taekwando (I'm sure I spelled that wrong) and he too spent a lot of time learning to fall. This is why I use him as my crash test dummy and put him on the crazies until they are suitable for me!


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## lostastirrup (Jan 6, 2015)

Need to test coefficient of friction and compaction of landing surfaces to determine impact forces. 


This is hilarious. As someone who just finished up several classes dealing with these concepts (albeit without horses involved) I am deeply tempted to go do math and get some numbers!


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Woodhaven said:


> Anita like and double like, very informative, should I test some of these theories or just take your word as the expert?


I have a tremendous amount of experience with the ball game that @AnitaAnne discussed, and I concur with her theories. 

:racing::racing::racing::racing::racing::falloff::falloff::falloff::falloff:


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Woodhaven said:


> Anita like and double like, very informative, should I test some of these theories or just take your word as the expert?


Oh by all means, do perform your own testing. So much more learning occurs in a "hands-on" environment! 



QueenofFrance08 said:


> @AnitaAnne I agree with your short horse theory since I broke my collar bone falling off an ahem.... miniature horse last year.
> 
> @SueC DH has a black belt in Taekwando (I'm sure I spelled that wrong) and he too spent a lot of time learning to fall. This is why I use him as my crash test dummy and put him on the crazies until they are suitable for me!


A mini? WOW! Those short ball players can be tough! 



lostastirrup said:


> Need to test coefficient of friction and compaction of landing surfaces to determine impact forces.
> 
> 
> This is hilarious. As someone who just finished up several classes dealing with these concepts (albeit without horses involved) I am deeply tempted to go do math and get some numbers!


Get those horses involved! Can't just crunch numbers...



Celeste said:


> I have a tremendous amount of experience with the ball game that @AnitaAnne discussed, and I concur with her theories.
> 
> :racing::racing::racing::racing::racing::falloff::falloff::falloff::falloff:


Yes, you have much valuable experience! Any one with a horse nicknamed the Psycho Princess obviously is an expert ball player! 



I do believe we have enough volunteers for a entire team of ball players!! 

Let the GAMES BEGIN :dance-smiley05:


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## Spanish Rider (May 1, 2014)

In a replication study, the results of the work group Me et al. have confirmed the data from the previously published study by _AnitaAnne_ (2018). However, with regards to the variables of rider size and adipose tissue correlating wth the outcome of hematoma, this result was only confirmed in events that did not present with associated internal bleeding. Nevertheless, further research by our work group is necessary to confirm this anomaly, as this datum did not reach statistical significance (_p_-value ≤ 0.05)


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

With all this experimenting and testing, I have to say Experience is the teacher that gives the test before the lesson and as a result the lesson is well learned, providing tester is conscious enough to absorb the info.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

:clap::clap::clap::clap:

This member of the experimental/testing group is currently experiencing severe acidosis of the abdominal muscles from experiencing other falls vicariously and reading the associated outstanding contributions to the academic literature.

:racing: :falloff: :winetime: :racing: :falloff: :winetime:


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)




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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

Woodhaven said:


> Anita like and double like, very informative, should I test some of these theories or just take your word as the expert?


Remember that peer review is essential to good research.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Spanish Rider said:


> In a replication study, the results of the work group Me et al. have confirmed the data from the previously published study by _AnitaAnne_ (2018). However, with regards to the variables of rider size and adipose tissue correlating wth the outcome of hematoma, this result was only confirmed in events that did not present with associated internal bleeding. Nevertheless, further research by our work group is necessary to confirm this anomaly, as this datum did not reach statistical significance (_p_-value ¡Ü 0.05)


:bowwdown: This was priceless!!! 

:rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

SueC said:


>


I need to hang this one on my wall...

I had nasal surgery back a few years ago and when they were waking me up from anesthesia I became frantic and asked where my horse was and is he ok...

The team giggled and interpreted my concern for my horse as a great love.

When they told me about it my thought was every other time I have woken up with a bunch of people leaning over and staring at me it was because the dang horse I was riding knocked me out :falloff:

Without any reins in my hands it was quite obvious he had taken off without me too :evil: :runpony:


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## janz (Apr 30, 2018)

haha, nice post.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

AnitaAnne said:


> Disadvantage: Landing is similar to a meteor crashing into earth. The site of impact is easily discernable to all other riders in the area.


Sand is quite embarrassing. Did I really make a crater that large? Does it have to be shaped like that? 

Obviously horse people know what happened here on Mars.









The only question is: What spooked the Martian horse?


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

gottatrot said:


> The only question is: What spooked the Martian horse?


Hypothesis 1: The lack of oxygen in the Martian atmosphere?

...but then the crater would have been bigger, and next to a smaller accompanying crater, thinking about it...

...so I am assuming the horse was carrying oxygen tanks and wearing a mask. So:

Sub-hypothesis 1b: The horse was spooked by having to carry oxygen tanks, and having to wear a mask. Multi-sensory insult!


Hypothesis 2: The Martian moons, appropriately named Phobos (fear) and Deimos (terror). Double spook!


Looking forward to alternative hypotheses from other researchers.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

gottatrot said:


> Sand is quite embarrassing. Did I really make a crater that large? Does it have to be shaped like that?
> 
> Obviously horse people know what happened here on Mars.
> 
> ...


The Martian horse has claimed to have seen this; the Mars Lander Crash Bags (Exhibit A).

However, when questioning a group of Martians who witnessed the entire incident, they unanimously agreed that the only physical object that he could have spooked this; the Mars Lander pad (Exhibit B) 

Due to the high risk of further spooking incidents, the Martian Counsel has decreed that no further Earthling Space Exploration Debris will be tolerated.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

AnitaAnne said:


> Due to the high risk of further spooking incidents, the Martian Counsel has decreed that no further Earthling Space Exploration Debris will be tolerated.


We apologise for the short interruption to the regular programme to present an item of international origin.

Riding along the Nullarbor Plain in Australia on the 12th of July, 1979, horses could conceivably have been spooked by falling pieces of Skylab.










As our ABC service reports: _NASA officials arrived in Esperance to check out the wreckage. Every local that brought a piece of Skylab to the shire offices to be verified was given a plaque. But it was a US newspaper, the San Francisco Examiner, who turned the hunt for souvenirs into a frenzy when they offered $10,000 dollars to the first person to arrive at their office with an authentic piece of Skylab - the winner had just 72 hours to get to America. The prize was claimed by 17 year old Stan Thorton from Esperance.

__These days, Skylab is a source of pride to the people of Esperance and the Nullarbor, who remember the lights, the sonic boom and the fuss that followed._

_The skylab crash put Esperance on the map, but it didn't stop the shire council having a light hearted dig at NASA for scatter space junk over the town, sending them a $400 fine for littering, which they never paid. _
_ 
from When Skylab fell to earth - ABC Goldfields WA - Australian Broadcasting Corporation
_
We now return you to the regular programme.


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## Cindy McGrady (Jan 18, 2020)

SueC said:


> And my husband wants to know how a _Draft_ affects the _wind_ direction... <img style="max-width:100%;" src="http://www.horseforum.com/images/smilies/icon_eek.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Shocked" class="inlineimg" />


😜 hilarious! This post really brightened my day


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## RegalCharm (Jul 24, 2008)

So, traveling at close to the speed of light would theoretically allow time travel into the future, as time slows down for the speeding object in order to "protect" the cosmic speed limit of the speed of light.

this explains on why after being launched from the back of a horse people say it was slow motion... When temporarily transported to the future you see your body in slow motion hitting the ground. So you can say this is going to leave a mark. 

Now as your velocity slows and you are transported back to your current time after launch you can say truthfully that you have seen this movie before. And the words you uttered are now repeating. "This is going to leave a mark."

Einstein concluded the faster you move through space, the slower you move through time.


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## mslady254 (May 21, 2013)

mkmurphy81 said:


> I think Schrödinger's Horse is for sale on Craigslist. I'm sure you've all seen him. "Bombproof, great with kids, knows the barrels, can rope off him, 3 year old stud."
> 
> If the horse bucks off his rider after an average of 15 minutes, and a perspective buyer tries him for 15 minutes (while you avoid watching), is the rider on or off the horse? Both?



This thread is a hoot. You guys are brilliant and hilarious. I don't have any education in physics or the like, but I've watched enough episodes of the Big Bang Theory to try to answer ....The rider is both on the horse and off the horse,,,or from another perspective, the rider is neither on the horse nor off the horse. 

I have experienced the 'faster thru space, slower thru time' phenomenon a few times, twice when involuntarily departing a horse but prior to impacting the planet with my body. The first time, I was cantering but not well , as my seat was leaving the saddle a bit with each stride, aka bouncing in the saddle, the horse chose a dip in the ground as the perfect place to zig right while I stayed (what had been) center. Clever girl, she succeeded in moving her center (spine) a mere few inches to the right of my center spine, but those few inches were monumental to the inevitable outcome. As I began the descent from my most upward position of the bounce, I came to realize that there was not longer seat area under me to come back down onto. I must say that I had enough presence of mind to realize that gravity WAS going to win, and my best bet was to push my feet on her barrel to try to guarantee me good clearance from her and NOT get hit by a cantering hoof. I remember being somewhat amazed at the time I had to think things thru in planning my impact. The 'faster thru space-slower thru time' phenomenon has fascinated me ever since. I was lots younger, more nimble and I landed rolling, and suffered no injury to anything but my pride. 
The second time, the horse surged forward from a walk due to some commotion from barn swallows or some barn nesting birds that had spooked a group of horses we had just passed and I swear I felt the wall of energy come forward them them like a Tsunami just prior to my horse surging forward and a bit sideways. The slowing of time sensation this time was much briefer , I had barely acknowledged that there was no recovery until time zipped back in to real time and I hit the arena floor. It was surprising how hard deep sand felt, and my helmeted (this time) head bounced once as I heard someone yelling at me to let go of the reins. Guess I was determined not to let the horse loose and be a bother or a danger to others, but the person yelling didn't want me to cause her to trample on me. No injuries that time either, except to pride. 
All that to say, I do find this phenom fascinating but have never tried to do any research (reading , not experimenting) on it, and would appreciate any articles (layman's level preferred) any of you know of on it. Our brains certainly work in amazing ways. 

Along those lines, have also had two experiences where the action was so fast that my brain couldn't comprehend what had happened. Is there a name or studies on that sort of experience? The first time, all I know is that we were headed South down a trail, and my next conscious awareness was that we were heading North and we were at least 15 feet from my last memory. Sonny must have spun around and gotten that far before I could comprehend. Shortly after that I heard a chain saw not too far off, , obviously Sonny heard it , thought it was a horse eating monster in the woods, and turned back toward the barn so fast my brain couldn't keep up. The second time, we were walking on a trail and (I thought) Sonny tripped so badly that his head went down completely out of sight. I remember thinking that he was going to somersault and that I could very well be hurt badly enough to die. Then his neck and head came back into view and I thought that he had gotten his footing back and we were saved. Turned out that he hadn't stumbled at all. Instead he had surged forward and I was whiplashed back. The rider behind me said she could see the TOP of my helmet, so when I lost sight of his head, it was me going back over the cantle, and when I thought he had recovered from the stumble, it was me somehow regaining an upright position. Weird, right ? Our brains have to tell us some version of events, so we think of the most logical explanation that we can when it happened so fast we can't take it in. If she hadn't been behind me and seen it, I guess I would have to this day thought it was a very bad stumble. Perhaps this explains different versions of the recounting of an accident, when everyone THINKS their version is correct. 

Maybe some of you brilliant folks can put an Algorithm to that ?....


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## RegalCharm (Jul 24, 2008)

@mslady254 If you were traveling at the speed of light, and there was a light beam following you and if you looked behind you would you be able to see the light beam following you???

The answer is No. since both objects are traveling at light speed the light beam will never be able to reach your eyes (optic nerves). 

So since your horse was traveling faster than your eyes the images of the horse turning around never reached your eyes. the same applies to his head disappearing as you slowed down and went in a different direction from vertical to horizontal and came back into view when you went from horizontal back to a vertical position and then you and horse were moving at the same velocity again..


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

I noticed we had a few "new" people who might want to contribute some data to this thread. We're always looking for new data!

Since the initial post is old, we've lost some pictures from it by internet attrition - the one above the Cyberman was a knight's armour. The post was headed by a Thelwell painting of a whole bunch of kids coming off their ponies.

Nerd warning - thread contains elaborate physics, by various people with university science training. Great fun if you're into that stuff. 🤓 🥳


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## mslady254 (May 21, 2013)

@SueC, thanks for reviving the thread. I enjoyed it just as much this second time. Thankfully, I don't have any new experiences/data to add to the discussion! I do however, still watch Big Bang Theory reruns.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

I may get to contribute soon with first hand knowledge. I am beginning to ride jumpers again. On purpose. With intent. 

As to the "faster thru space - slower thru time," I was working with a fellow recently who experienced this. His horse went to bucking and he made a Herculean effort to stay aboard. After he landed he said he was in slow motion and actually had the time, and sense, to choose a good landing spot. No rocks. He chose well.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Thought I'd add some info to this thread.
I have always wondered...how much does the height of a horse affect falling off? 

People talk about getting a shorter horse to be safer. I've had the privilege of falling off horses of various heights. I can't say I noticed that it hurt less to fall off a 14 hand horse.

So I used some online calculators for fun.

Falling off a 14 hand horse: 
Speed will be 5.28 meters/second in earth's gravity, or 11.8 mph.
That would equal 4,434 lbs of force, or if you spread it out over 5 square inches of flesh, 177 lbs per square inch.

Falling off a 15 hand horse: 
Speed will be 5.46 meters/second or 12.2 mph. That would equal 4,739 lbs of force, or over 5 square inches, 190 lbs per square inch.

Falling off a 16 hand horse:
Speed will be 5.64 meters/second or 12.6 mph. That would equal 5,055 lbs of force, or over 5 square inches 202 lbs per square inch.

Falling off a 17 hand horse:
Speed will be 5.82 meters/second or 13 mph. That would equal 5,381 lbs of force, or over 5 square inches 215 lbs per square inch.

There are many variables. If you manage to fall with more of your body surface, the psi will be reduced. If you fall on the point of a stick, it will be higher.

Thin parts of the skull can fracture with only 16 lbs of force. It can take up to 1100 lbs of force to fracture the skull.
Tiny bones can fracture with as little as 25 lbs per square inch. The femur can take up to 1700 lbs psi to fracture.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

You're talking about speed of impact (terminal velocity at the time of hitting the ground), off stationary horses, aren't you, @gottatrot? 😎 Great to see people sitting down to do some physics. 🥳 Interesting stats on fracture forces - I wonder what the impact force that fractured my metatarsals was - but I'd say it was comparatively low; it was the angle that was awkward.

If you land on your feet, you'll have to take into account how long your legs are, for the terminal velocity of the impact point on the body! 🤓 Thinking about it, your calculations are more accurate for cannonballs (or people compressed into cannonballs) falling off stationary horses, than they are for 5-6 foot body-shaped bodies falling off horses, with all sorts of different possible landing permutations. But it's a great starting point, and maybe we can now ruminate on the permutations!


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

You have to take into consideration the speed at which the horse is moving and whether you decelerate immediately, or hold on a while. We are getting into calculus at this point, and that has been a few years for me. I will say from personal experience, that I do not recall falling off of a horse that is standing still. I know that some people do so, but it usually involves large quantities of alcohol, and I prefer to keep my liver. 

Has the issue of the amount of adipose tissue protecting various body parts been taken into account?


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