# Tucks Head Down and Canters



## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Go on shorter rides, and ride out repeatedly. (Be generous initially - make it 8-10 times, and only finish the ride once he believes there'll be another leg forthcoming and he doesn't bother rushing anymore.) It'll teach him that the ride isn't over just because you're heading towards home. 

Once you do turn into your driveway and the ride is over, make it a bit less comfortable than it used to be. Yes, take off the bridle and give him water, but let him sweat in the saddle for a while longer, for example.


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## taywhitworth710 (Jul 18, 2018)

Thank you!

He will also tend to pull his head between his legs, and will enter the gallop and dart towards my husband, if he see's my husband.. This can be scary too as he will brake once he is face to face with my fiance (Sometimes my husband will walk to the trails with me and wait at a trail head while we explore.) Again, I am pulling all the brakes that I have, but he holds his head so low and between his legs that it is no use. Same with a single pull hard one direction to brake, no effect to him.


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## Caledonian (Nov 27, 2016)

He's learnt that he can do what he wants if he evades your contact by putting his head between his knees. You need to be one step ahead of him and recognise when he’s going to do it and drive him forward with your legs and seat so that he’s using his hindquarters. 

Go on shorter rides and do plenty of circles and transitions so that he has to listen and doesn’t have time to think about turning for home or evading. Over time increase your distance. 

I’d also work on your seat so that it’s as independent as possible. It's very easy to grab at the reins or use them for balance, which may hurt his mouth. Equally, it’s worth checking if he’s happy with his bit and not in pain.


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## Boo Walker (Jul 25, 2012)

It sounds like an evasive technique seen in many children's ponies. It can be very hard to get that strong head up once it becomes lower than the chest. A daisy or "grass" rein can help. Since it came on so suddenly it may be worth getting teerh checked. There could be a bruised bar or sharp tooth. You can't win the tug of war so you'll have to outsmart him. Lots of transitions with very light contact will keep him guessing and prevent him from diving and getting heavy on the forehand. If you are a confident rider, when you begin to canter and feel that head want to go down, sit back and deep and push him forward without pulling on the reins. To resist the feeling of toppling on his nose, the head will come back up to a natural position.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

taywhitworth710 said:


> Thank you!
> 
> He will also tend to pull his head between his legs, and will enter the gallop and dart towards my husband, if he see's my husband.. This can be scary too as he will brake once he is face to face with my fiance (Sometimes my husband will walk to the trails with me and wait at a trail head while we explore.) Again, I am pulling all the brakes that I have, but he holds his head so low and between his legs that it is no use. Same with a single pull hard one direction to brake, no effect to him.


Tee-tee. Your horse reminds me of this horse:


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

taywhitworth710 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I have a 6yo paso fino who is very intelligent. The past two days he has started this thing where I ask (or dont ask) for a canter and he will enter the canter, lower his head between his legs almost (and I cannot pull his head back up for the life of me) and enters into a full on sprint. It can be nerve wrecking as I have NO control and he is so strong with his neck that no matter the direction I pull to correct, it is ignored. He will do this on directions towards home, directing him away from home he is perfect with all the commands. What gets me confused is that we can be 10miles away on a trail and if we are headed in the direction of "home" he knows it and does the mentioned actions.
> 
> Any advice or knowledge on how to correct this?


How long have you owned or ridden him?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

think if there is any reason that the last two days things are different? I mean, there is usually a reason that things change. Has this horse never been disobediant to you before? stubborn in any other way? And, yes, how long have you been riding him?


It could be a pain issue, but I think it is an evasion. You say he starts to canter on his own, without you asking him? Can you tell when he is thinking of doing that? If so, you could take a minute to circle him around when you feel that he is thinking of breaking gait. And, don't ask him for a canter yourself. Not yet.


I would agree with the advice already given that when he puts his head down, you should sit back and push him harder, to make him go faster! and give him a little bit of rein. That will often cause a hosre to leap forward, and in so doing, the head comes up.


However, this requires the rider to feel secure in their seat, because the horse could lunge forward, OR, they could decide to buck, if they have enough freedom in the rein.


For a less than confident rider, I'd stick with circling the horse whenever they start to exhibit that they are considering bolting off. 



May I ask what kind of bit you are using?


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## taywhitworth710 (Jul 18, 2018)

Bit: Sweet Iron DogBone (That is what his trainer suggested).

I have owned him for about a year and I got his teeth done yesterday, his teeth were not bad just a little sharp.

I have been doing the circling and backing, which has been trying his patience. 

I have tried to push him forward in an effort to bring his head back up, but he pushes his neck low and forward. He enjoys being pushed forward and faster, he loves to run.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

regarding bit, I meant is this a snaffle bit or a curb bit? does it have shanks or not? have you spoken with the trainer on this issue? what does he/she suggest?


How well will he give to the rein and turn at walk and trot?


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

taywhitworth710 said:


> Bit: Sweet Iron DogBone (That is what his trainer suggested).
> 
> I have owned him for about a year and I got his teeth done yesterday, his teeth were not bad just a little sharp.
> 
> ...


You mention a trainer. Have they not been able to help you with this issue?


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## taywhitworth710 (Jul 18, 2018)

Definitely using a snaffle type bit. She (the trainer) was constantly changing his bit due to him outsmarting each one. 

He turns with ease at the walk and trot, anticipates my commands. He is also very excitable when my husband arrives home (which is usually about the time I work my horse). Backs with little pressure to the mouth (if any) and shaking my legs a bit. 

He is usually a great boy, but those past few rides at the canter he has taken the bit and ran with it..


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## taywhitworth710 (Jul 18, 2018)

Trainer is out of the picture. She has moved. 

Got to a point where she was taking my horse and giving it to her daughter... Not paying thousands of dollars for someone to give my horse away. He was desired at the barn and envied which caused a lot of drama. Blah, blah, blah, I am tired of trainers, barns and drama. I have worked on horse ranches for 12 years and have never dealt with a horse as intellectual as my Kuzco.. 

A lot of horse lovers on here are quick to judge when they are only basing their opinion off a typed message (which can be interpreted in various ways) and not a visual. 

I have ridden horses that have had a lot of "go" but I have never rode one that completely evades the bit at a canter. Lowering of the head is something I have dealt with.

But he is different, his head is significantly lower (nose to ground) and he turns his canter into a gallop, pushing for each stride to be longer and faster. 

And as mentioned before this has only happened twice.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

When you post only written info, and not complete, people have to venture a guess, or a judgement, on that limited basis. 
What else could we do? I did ask about your bit. I mean whether it is a curb or not. 

Maybe now that his teeth are done he will not do this.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

So what happens if you just let him keep going? If he's doing it as evasion, he has to have something to evade. Usually this is caused by someone snatching at his mouth to get him to drop his head. So let him cruise around with his head wherever he wants. Ride in an arena or open field so if he tanks off he's not going anywhere, and see what he does. Most likely, he'll realize nobody is going to get in his face and bring his head back up on his own if you leave him alone when he does it. If you're out on a ride and he does it, put him to work when he gets home. Let him 'win' but help him realize that it doesn't get him anything.


My Paso was so herd-bound when I got him that he would go over a 6-foot panel to get back to the other horses that were 20' away. If you rode him down the driveway he'd turn into a lathered, sweaty mess of anxiety until he got back home. A lot of these horses have been mishandled and hold a ton of anxiety, and it takes just one small thing to 'overflow their worry cup' and you have an issue. If he's so insecure he's bolting for home, then you need to work on making him feel secure with you. Lots of time just hanging out with him. Lots of leisurely rides around the yard and barn area and go a few feet further each time. Pasos tend to be very stiff as traditional training does not include flexion. Work on flexing and bending so you can disengage him will help. Let this little horse realize that he is safe with you, and the problem will solve itself. Herd bound issues are often caused by anxiety. If you fix the anxiety, you fix the herd bound without even working on it.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Goodness sake. 
No one is being judgmental towards your situation. Questions asked are to get a better understanding of what is going on to offer the best advice possible


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## taywhitworth710 (Jul 18, 2018)

I never accused or said anyone was being judgmental. I was stating that I am tired of the judgement from the barns that we have been to, and was stating that it is difficult to fully understand a situation based off of what I am typing. 

I appreciate everyone's time and input. But I am exhausted by catty barns and trainers.


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## taywhitworth710 (Jul 18, 2018)

Thank you for your input! 

He is comfortable, tack wise, mouth wise, and environment wise. He is eager to go to the trails or to run the track loop. He will only use this tactic where he puts his head down to the ground and holds it there with such strength that I cant stop or pull him to the side. It is a powerful gallop with his neck fully outstretched (I need to get a video) I have never ridden a horse that does this, not an eager barrel racer, nor an eager OTTB. He was raised with goats from where I got him and he acts more like a goat than a horse. At the barns he will jump not only over items, but jump on them, and is okay with the strangest of objects (fish ponds, fountains, vehicles). When my fiance arrives home while I am riding he will throw a fit and fight to go and say hello. Very sociable.. If he doesnt get to say hello he will throw fit, back end gets tight and he begins to have an uneasy footing. He will neigh for vehicles as they go by, more of like a scream. He is truly the oddest horse I have ever owned and worked with. I can scream his name from acres away, once, and he comes running to me. He is very comfortable and too smart for his own good. He is great with verbal commands and I work on flexing before and after each ride, and even on days when we dont go for a ride. He can flex to his hind quarter with ease, and when riding he turns like a barrel racer. Quick and sharp, anticipating my command and reacts quickly to it.

And now he has just started with the running and ignoring of my command to slow or turn. As wierd as this may sound he looks like a ****ed off horse who is charging at an animal (Not saying he is aggressive, but the run and neck lies in a way that looks aggressive, ears are up and forward not layed back). I am going to keep him around the property and make him use his thinker, as I have been spoiling him a bit with the trails which could be a reason to this sudden issue. He wasnt happy with this the other day, as he was exciteable around the trail heads and upset when we would stay on property and not hit a trail. Staying around the property and ground work is probably what we need to do for a bit.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I call this being hooked off with! It can be frightening as you are out of control. 

When he does this don't pull on both reins in an attempt to get his head up but put one hand on his withers fixed and use the other in a sharp jerk upwards, this doesn't give him anything to pull against. 

There is a lot on here about the one rein stop which would help you. 

I know that one should be as soft as possible with your hands but if a horse is hooking off your safety comes way ahead of his mouth.


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## iloverains (Apr 1, 2011)

I sort of only skimmed through the other replies so if this has been said/asked then apologies 

But you could try going out on a trail like normal and only ever walking home (providing he won’t take off on you at a walk?) so he doesn’t get the opportunity to do it, do this until he doesn’t try and speed up at all (May take weeks/months) he may get out of the habit? 

Also to ride on a loose rein as much as possible, I had a horse that curls his neck, nose into chest, and ignored all rein aids when doing it - but doesn’t seem like he’s as bad as your paso - but what I did to correct it was let the reins looser, hold my hands as far forward and high as possible and sort of pull his head up. It was awkward as, but sort of confused him enough to pick his head up for a moment, and then I’d reward by letting the reins loose again and patting (all while at a canter) I had the luxury of being able to let him go as fast and as far as he wants. 

And another thing is that if he gets in the position and runs, go with it, and then when he decides he’s done / starts slowing/picking his head back up then make him run more, sort of like, well if you wanna do it, we’ll do it on my terms. I did that with a few bolting horses and they’ve never bolted again. Of course, safely as possible is always nice. 

Good luck anyways. Might have to rename him Billy Goat! Being a paso too he would be very round and flexible, no wonder he can run with his head like that.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

So... I read most of the responses and most of your replies...
I'm sorry you have had a bad go of it...sometimes it is very difficult, the horseworld.
My knowledge is limited but some things I have learned with riding friends Paso's are...
They thrive and search for a firm hold of their mouth so they can lean on you, gait or push forward against you.
They also work super well in a hakima...it is the Paso special bridle near all Paso's are taught to ride with.
Hakima is a hackamore style bridle...but it is also very different than what most think of when the word bitless or hackamore is mentioned...
Paso's do ride with bits...the mouth cavity though on the ones I had contact with is small and tight so a broken mouth bit might not be the best. They get poked in the roof and it hurts...
Many are happier in a straight bar, low port or fixed mouth...the best are ridden in a spade bit only a true professional highly trained rider have the horse dancing...no pain just training at work.
I know when I ride a anxious Paso I throw them away...literally work on the loosest rein I can...
The horse is suddenly unsure and slows down, starts to listen to and look for that contact...and I won't increase pressure and the run-away is done...
You have to have nerves and be ready to ride it out if they bolt...but it might confuse your horse enough he just stops his nonsense...
That is just a idea I had and know dropping them worked in a few that I've sat on who played this same game or tried to with me...


I sent you a private message...please look for it.
I hope it helps.
:runninghorse2:...


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

taywhitworth710 said:


> I never accused or said anyone was being judgmental. I was stating that I am tired of the judgement from the barns that we have been to, and was stating that it is difficult to fully understand a situation based off of what I am typing.
> 
> I appreciate everyone's time and input. But I am exhausted by catty barns and trainers.



I thought you meant those replying to your thread were being judgmental.
My apologies.



> A lot of horse lovers on here are quick to judge when they are only basing their opinion off a typed message (which can be interpreted in various ways) and not a visual.


Anyhow, like any horse they can out muscle us. It is up to us figure out how to get in their head rather than trying to out muscle them.
He is obviously an intelligent one. I seriously doubt loping it out of him is going to do anything. His mind isn't on you and what you are doing if he is screaming at cars and worried about other things. He is looking for a reason.
I'm guessing your previous trainer had close to same problem as the mention of him " constantly outsmarting" his bits but it might have manifested in a different way.
He found a way to get to you.

What do you do once he reaches your husband? What does your husband do?
If you give him any type of release whether you realize it or not because you're just glad he stopped running off with you, you may be rewarding the behavior and he got out of him doing whatever you were asking of him when he pulled his out of your hands.


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## taywhitworth710 (Jul 18, 2018)

Well he screams at vehicles because the mailman will bring him treats on his lunch break.. This is not an every day occasion, but I am sure it is part of the issue. His hollering causes even more people to stop by and give him attention. He has pasture buddies, so I am not sure why is attention would be to the people. Other than the treat factor. 

He was good with the trainer when I was not there, but when there he would only respond to my voice and would begin to give the trainer a test.. which in turn would make her tell me to step off to the side of the barn or pasture where I would be out of sight.

I lunged him yesterday and he was very responsive. 

I dont allow him to approach my husband when he acts like this, but in the past I have let him greet my husband when he arrives. My husband will just scratch his ears.. I felt as though that was going to be an issue a while back and began to nip that in the butt. But I feel as though the running is something different, I feel as though he take the canter and assumes he can gallop. He will throw out his back end (almost 100% of the time) when I ask for the canter. The gallop leaves no room for him to act silly like that. But that doesnt explain why he is ignoring my command to slow, he will push against my commmand to brake (including a side reign pull - just to divert him). I am going to try to get a video today (if this occurs again). But I am hoping that with more ground work, and less trail rides, bending and a few other exercises may help nip this habit before it begins to set in.

Will let everyone know how he does today. 

Also he does not like curb bits, he strongly dislikes it even sitting in his mouth. Which is why I use a snaffle type bit... I know most pasos dont use that type of bit, but he responds the best to it thus far..


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

COWCHICK77 said:


> What do you do once he reaches your husband? What does your husband do?
> If you give him any type of release whether you realize it or not because you're just glad he stopped running off with you, you may be rewarding the behavior and he got out of him doing whatever you were asking of him when he pulled his out of your hands.



^ I agree.




Him looking for your husband and screaming for him I think is not ABOUT your husband, per se. It's about him leaving you! He gets some kind of reward for suddenly going to your husband, even if you actually don't let him go. I think what he gets is the cessation of whatever thing you were asking of him before his attention rocketed over onto the arriving other human being.


We often reward horses in ways that we are totally unaware of. The simple 'pause' in our working with a horse that happens when we stop the ground work long enough to recognize and greet a person coming up to the fence is, to the horse, a reward. Work stopped. and, it stopped when another outside person arrived. The smart horse made a mental link between those two that he will not forget.


And, in the case of a horse that is anxious, and is looking for something, 'out there' to make him feel better, he is so predisposed for something to come that it takes almost nothing for him to leave you and go to that thing, and your pause in your work with him, even if you could not help but pause, was his reward.


If you have a round pen, or a smaller arena, start work with him and when your husband comes up, ignore the husband, and try to not pause even one bit. In fact, if the horse starts to call and put a lot of focus on the husband, I'd start making enough commotion that it makes your horse let go of that thought and turn back to see what all the fuss is about. when he does, immediately stop your noise/commotion so that he knows that all he has to do to make this annoying noise cease is to look at you.


You do this over and over, being very careful to turn it on when he leaves you, off when he looks at you. Eventually, he will realize that being with you is better than not . Then, I'd go up and pet him, and put him away.


for 'commotion' you can use a flag that you flap around, or slapping your thigh noisily, or smacking the dirt with a lunge whip, kicking sand (not AT him! just sideways) . Anything that will startle and annoy him. Just make sure you are not directly threatening him. So, don't flap the falg AT him, as if you are driving him. flap it off to the side, to draw his attention.


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## Hackamore (Mar 28, 2014)

If you are pulling with both reins to stop or correct him this is most likely were you are going wrong. It sounds like he is attempting to avoid the bit and once a horse learns this they can run through the bit pressure. This can be common with horses like race horses that are ridden consistently with a lot of bit contact. Riding with constant bit contact is like driving your car with your foot on the brake. Eventually the brakes wear out. The best method to control his speed or keep him from running off is to redirect his feet. By this I mean if he attempts to go into the canter instead of you pulling back on the reins, lift one rein and bring him into a tight circle to slow him down. Keep him working in tight circular or figure 8 patterns until he calms down. Then continue in the direction you originally intended to go on a loose rein. If he speeds up repeat the patterns. Alternatively you could use a one rein stop if he really gets out of control. 

Do you typically ride this horse on a loose rein or with contact?


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## taywhitworth710 (Jul 18, 2018)

I think you are on point 'Hackamore' as I felt his behavior was similar to those that race on the track.. I give him as much rein as possible. Since he began to push through the bit I have been doing ground work and walk/trot work on back with the constant change of direction to help slow his roll. He doesnt like it as he will pound his foot when given a command. But I think with persistency we can nip this in the butt before it becomes a habit.


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