# beef and dairy questions??



## kait18

my folks want to make our 21 acre farm more self sufficient. so knowing that we already have chickens lol and thats it besides my horses who are useless in that department 

but what type of beef cattle and dairy cows would you recommend.

and what suggestions do you have when it comes toraising them and feeding them.. i have done some research it already and like the jersey cow but for the beef cattle i have no idea 

any help would be appreciated... my mom wants to have two beef calves next summer and a dairy cow as well. 

thanks


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## Delfina

Angus... they are YUMMY!

I have an Angus steer and heifer right now, they are both quite friendly and easy to take care of. They get free choice Timothy hay (horse quality, so these cows are in heaven) and about a pound of grain that they share. The grain keeps them friendly and really easy to move around, just shake the grain bucket and they come running. They also have a heated auto-waterer and a 12x12 run-in.

Angus bulls tend to be very mean. Not sure why but I've been told this by man experienced cattle people, so our friend bought a Hereford Bull (who is extremely friendly, eats out of your hand) and we're going to breed our Angus heifer to him next spring.


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## Speed Racer

Delfina said:


> Our friend bought a Hereford Bull (who is extremely friendly, eats out of your hand) and we're going to breed our Angus heifer to him next spring.


Angus/Hereford crosses are very popular, and yes, the Hereford side will make the cattle more tractable. They're both beef breeds, and tasty. 

OP, I've heard that Holstein dairy cows produce a lot of milk, but they're nasty. Guernseys are supposed to be sweet and docile.


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## kevinshorses

How you handle a cow effects thier disposition more than the breed. I've been around angus cows that you could walk up to on the range and pet and I've been around herefords that would chase you over a fence. As far as dairy cows, I wouldn't buy any. If you have one milk cow you might as well have a hundred because you have to be home every morning and every night to milk them. Forget about vacations because finding someone that can and will milk the cow properly is next to impossible. For the amount of milk most families use it's cheaper to buy it. It's also safer because it's tested for bacteria and disease and pastuerized.


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## RoosterDo

I recommend doing a goat for milk purposes, they are smaller and easier to handle than a cow. Goats generally need to be bred each year to continue producing milk and you can butcher the unwanted offspring (usually the boys) and so you have meat and dairy! As with cows goats need to be milked twice a day at a 12 hour interval for at least the first 3-4 months of lactation after that if they are making more milk than you need you can drop them down to once a day. When we chose goats over cows we did it because we new our family wouldnt need the amount of milk a cow produces and because we like the cleanliness and generally easier aspect of taking care of dairy goats. We raised a pig last year and we are raising a cow this year on our excess goat milk!


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## mls

kevinshorses said:


> How you handle a cow effects thier disposition more than the breed.


To a point - however we treat all of ours the same. Some are simply more easy going than others. We have full siblings that are night and day different in attitude. Born, raised, handled and fed the same way.

We raise purebred and commercial Simmental.


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## kait18

wow... lots of info. thanks for your input.
so you know not sure if it helps but we are starting the self suffiecient thing for our entire family not just immediate.. so we are talking like 24-30 people. 

so we were going to do 2 beef and 2 dairy. 
dairy i was looking into a creamy milk that way i can make yogurt and a few other things with it. thats why i was thinking jersey cow... but i never thought of goats. i will have to look into that section.
as for beef we were looking at angus but had mix reviews. but you guys made a good suggestion with a cross of hereford and angus... never thought of mix breeding a cow.  

now some of you might have both or one side of this operation. but what is your normal feed schedule for the animals???
i have been told and found anything from only hay to needing grain to only grazing on grass... so any tips in that sectionwould be helpful. 
thanks again


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## kevinshorses

It depends on what you have that you can use to economically meet the needs of the animals. Dairy cattle or goats will take much more feed than the beef cows or meat goats respectively because they have to produce the milk in addition to maintaining wieght.


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## mls

2 of each isn't going to go a long way for 24 people. Steers are typically butchered between 18 months and two years. We share one with 6 people. If you want them to gain weight to be butchered, you will want them in a confined area and fed grain. Walking off pounds in the pasture won't garner you much beef.

Our steers are grained daily. Cows are grained while nursing. Heifer calves are grained for a few months after weaning to help discourage weight loss with the life style change. Our steers and heifers we aren't keeping are sold between 600 and 800 pounds. All have hay 24/7.

A cow will need to be milked two times a day. Preferably 12 hours apart. Holsteins are the largest producers - under ideal circumstances can produce up to 100 pounds of milk a day.

What are your local rules on housing cattle? You may want to check into rules and regulations before you get too far ahead of yourself.


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## kait18

we have 15 acres fenced in now. and are fencing in another 3-4 acres next spring. i thought the animals would have enough roughage from grazing from the summer with little grain. and in the winter add hay for roughage and grain still. 
we have 3 horse now and getting another. then add 2 beef cattle, 1 dairy to start with and possible 2 sheep. 
you think that 15 acres would be enough with proper rotation or should i plain on giving hay in the summer too?


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## kevinshorses

I don't think that's anywhere near enough but I don't know how grass grows in NJ. You could also try to rent some pasture for some of the animals.


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## kait18

well the neighbors are going half in with the meat and they have another 21 acres so they would let us graze on there fields as well...

and we have access to grazing on preservationland thats leased out to farmers or we can go across the street and ask the neighbor if we can put them with his cattle herd... they have over 72 acres with access to preservation land...


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## COWCHICK77

kait18 said:


> we have 15 acres fenced in now. and are fencing in another 3-4 acres next spring. i thought the animals would have enough roughage from grazing from the summer with little grain. and in the winter add hay for roughage and grain still.
> we have 3 horse now and getting another. then add 2 beef cattle, 1 dairy to start with and possible 2 sheep.
> you think that 15 acres would be enough with proper rotation or should i plain on giving hay in the summer too?



It depends on where you live and how many acres to takes to sustain an animal unit (AU). If your unsure you can contact your local Ag extension office.


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## COWCHICK77

As far as the breed of your beef cattle it depends if you are raising steers to butcher or did you want a couple of cows to breed for calves to feed and butcher?

If your buying steers to butcher- I recommend steers rather than heifers, steers have a higher daily gain than heifers. As far as the breed since you live up north I would recommend English breeds rather than a thin skinned breed like a Brahma or Mexican style cattle. English breeds endure the winters better. If they are thin skinned you have to feed them more in order for them to stay warm and maintain their weight. Also I wouldn't recommend Charlois cattle they have a heavier bone mass and your yeild won't be as high as say an Angus. I am not a big fan of Herfords, I find them to be weak hearted and their eyes are horrible to deal with in the spring in the summer, it seems like your constantly doctoring them. Maybe Angus crossbred. With a crossbred you get the hybrid vigor. 

I love Mexican cattle, they are hardy critters that were actually bred to gain on the move as oppossed to English breeds that don't gain well if moved alot, but given your acreage that won't be a huge issue. And again the thin skinned Mexicans might not winter as well.

But cattle preferences are a lot like horse breeds, everyone has their opinions!


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## Joe4d

get the kinda a beef that comes in the plastic rapped package. Theb plant about a 2 acre food plot, Then shoot the deer in the fall. Lots of meat, no year round upkeep. Plus you dont have to eat something with a name.


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## kait18

i already do the dear meat... my folks like the beef so i need that option which is why they want it. maybe i can convince them to do one beef cattle, and no dairy lol i don't want to milk anything...  

haha thanks for the help everyone i am printing this and showing it to them tonight


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## tempest

Speed Racer said:


> OP, I've heard that Holstein dairy cows produce a lot of milk, but they're nasty.


I have quite a bit of experience with Holsteins, and while some of them were nasty a lot of the ones of I worked with (about 40 some) were gentle and friendly. But I guess that this could have had a lot to do with how they were handled, raised, and the temperament of the cows in general. So I don't know how much of that statement is true.


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## kait18

tempest i agree it depends on the animals handling and personality more so then the breed. i didn't like the holsteins to much bc they seemed to have a less creamy milk which would make a better yogurt. i am a big yogurt person. so i liked the creamy aspect lol


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## mls

kait18 said:


> tempest i agree it depends on the animals handling and personality more so then the breed. i didn't like the holsteins to much bc they seemed to have a less creamy milk which would make a better yogurt. i am a big yogurt person. so i liked the creamy aspect lol


Again - it completely depends on the animal. Holsteins can test just as high as a Guernsey or Jersey.


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## InStyle

We run 60head of charlois/hereford cows, and then 2 charlois bulls. They do great in our cold manitoba winters, are generally easy calvers, and easy to work with. They are larger then the angus (or at least the angus around us). And they are delicious 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Celeste

Goats are by far the most economical milking and meat animal that you can raise. Milking must be done twice a day, rain or shine, sick or well. 
Goat milk tastes a lot like fresh cow's milk served in an old tennis shoe..........
I buy my meat and from the store. Much easier.


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## Jumper4ever

i have a lot of experience raising/breeding/showing milking shorthorns and truth me told they are amazing cows! they are super sweet and gentle along with good milkers and can double as beefers. i loved all the shorthorns at the barn i used to work at/own cows at and i never met a mean one, even the bulls.


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## Celeste

I love shorthorns! We used to have beef shorthorns. I love the awesome colors. We had red ones and white ones and roan ones and spotted ones. They were gentle.


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## Jumper4ever

im glad someone agrees with me! my calf and i always cleaned up at shows, yet people were still against them. they're not the most common breed but my all time favorite compared to holsteins and jerseys


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## kait18

i will have to look into them. sadly i have never heard of them but i will do some digging. thanks for pointing them out


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## moorland

i'm not sure how things are done there ,but here we run suckler herds ,
can you get fresians there ,they are a hardy cow ,if it's covered by a beef breed ,then you can do what traditionally was done on holdings here ,take the calf off in the evening ,it can be done with care and makes for a nice handlable calf and leave it to suckle for the day,that way if there is a problem it can suckle instead of you milking ,then slaughter the calf when it's grown , traditionally here this was done with shetland cattle but most cattle over here such as dexter and welsh black were kept the same way 

something called strip grazing is getting popular here ,with not bad grass growth the gazing can make up most of the feed ,not sure if it's possible over there but used to work and still does in some places here


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## kait18

moorland i will have to look into that


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## Celeste

Good idea. I knew a family that did their jersey cow that way. They separated them every evening and milked her in the morning. It was less labor intensive for sure. They let her graze and they also fed her grain. She didn't produce huge amounts of milk for the family that way, but it was enough for them.



moorland said:


> i'm not sure how things are done there ,but here we run suckler herds ,
> can you get fresians there ,they are a hardy cow ,if it's covered by a beef breed ,then you can do what traditionally was done on holdings here ,take the calf off in the evening ,it can be done with care and makes for a nice handlable calf and leave it to suckle for the day,that way if there is a problem it can suckle instead of you milking ,then slaughter the calf when it's grown , traditionally here this was done with shetland cattle but most cattle over here such as dexter and welsh black were kept the same way
> 
> something called strip grazing is getting popular here ,with not bad grass growth the gazing can make up most of the feed ,not sure if it's possible over there but used to work and still does in some places here


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## kait18

very helpful. i will have to add that to the research pile i have made already


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## Joe4d

I am thinking raisng one or two beef cows is a money loosing proposition. By the time you add in purchase price, vet, upkeep, doodads around the barn, grain, butcher costs, not to mention your time and labor, youd be better off working a couple extra hours a week at a job and just buying the meat. There is a reason cattle ranches out west do best. They get to graze on taxpayers grass, the ranchers grow their own grain. If you are buying cattle feed, youd be better off just buying the beef.
I am thinking chickens would get you way more meat per dollar spent. Lot easier to feed also. They eat pretty much anything. I buy deer baiting corn in the spring for dirt cheap from sporting stores. Lots of eggs and you can handle the butchering on your own.
Supposedly catfish are the best food in lb of meat out animal to raise. How about a big catfish farm ?


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## kait18

haha joe we already do the chickens. and i agree alot more work then i want to do. i am just gethering info for my parents nothing is decided yet. my mom has it set in her head that this is a good idea. and we are making a pros and con list. she either wants to have a milk or beef not both. and i am hopeing for neither.

plus with all the extra meat i bring back from deer hunting or get from friends who are, i really don't see the point in doing the beef as well.

if we do go through with it i am hoping for dairy. atleast that way i can do some different things.


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## Celeste

A lot of people around here grow commercial catfish. Unfortunately, people will sneak onto farms and steal them. "Catfish russling.... "


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## kait18

celeste my uncle does the catfish thing and he losses more than half just from people stealing them (they love to catfish wrestling). 

plus only my mom and dad eat fish no one else. the smell of it turns our stomachs :/


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## Celeste

I wonder if "wrestle" and "russle" are the same word with different local pronouncements and therefore different spellings.


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## kait18

maybe i never even thought about it. i only think wrestling like the matches on tv... i see some people really have to try and wrestle to get those catfish to stay in there hands  
but i can see your spelling being correct as well  idk though not very good at english myself (neve rmy strong point in school i was better in matha nd science)


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## Joe4d

Catfish wrestling, thats where you stick your toe in there mouth get em to bite it and you wrestle them up,, Actually thats like TV and more properly called RASSLIN, As in me an Jimbob got Rasslin on the payperview. Rustlin would be what we called as kids Pond raiding. Seemed the private ponds always had the best fishing. 
What I love doing is calling the current crop of MMA barbarism on TV, Rasslin, gets all the neanderthals all worked up.


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## Delfina

Joe4d said:


> I am thinking raisng one or two beef cows is a money loosing proposition. By the time you add in purchase price, vet, upkeep, doodads around the barn, grain, butcher costs, not to mention your time and labor, youd be better off working a couple extra hours a week at a job and just buying the meat.


I disagree. I bought both of my Angus cows at auction, paid about half market-price for them. A single Vet visit which won't need to occur again unless one becomes ill as he went over what shots and treatments cows need, how to administer them and whatever meds I need can be purchased from the local Vet Supply or through him. 

Grain is negligible, mine eat a 50lb bag in about 4 weeks (more to keep them friendly, than feed them). Only "doodads" I bought were 2 tire feeders, one for outside, one for inside the run-in. Time and Labor? I spend *maybe* 20mins daily filling their tire feeders and that's only because it's Winter.... I have 30+ acres of grass for them to munch and a heated auto-waterer that came with my property.

Best part is that I KNOW what they are eating and how my meat will be processed. There will be no chemicals or anything in my meat. Grass-fed beef is horrifically expensive to buy, cheaper than mystery meat if you raise it yourself.


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## Celeste

If you have adequate pasture, you can economically raise livestock. If you have to buy a lot of feed, it costs a fortune.


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## waresbear

Pigs are popular & are the "other" white meat.


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## kait18

waresbear - never thought of that  i will be mentioning that


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