# Sorrel? Chestnut? Both?



## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

It’s the same thing. Different regions and disciplines use different terms. Some people claim they refer to different shades. But honestly, the answer is both. Genetically it’s identical.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

@SteadyOn is right, but I do refer to them as different colors. I’d call her a sorrel. In my neck of the woods a chestnut is very dark, and a sorrel is brighter.


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## My Salty Pony (Jan 1, 2022)

Sorrel is my opinion on this guy. A Chestnut is a bit darker shade that has a kind of a chocolate shading to them.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Your horse is red. Genetically ee. There is a huge range of shades with all sorts of different descriptive. Two standard ones are sorrel and chestnut. A third is liver. You'll get different answers depending on where you're at and who you're asking. I've found the answer can also depend on the discipline. Here most english types are referred to as sorrel and western types are chestnut.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

In my world your horse is a sorrel because it has a flaxen mane. My TWH sorrel horse is called out as sorrel on his papers.

One of my horses was called a red chestnut because his mane and tail color matched his body color. This horse (RIP Joker) was also a TWH and called out as chestnut on his papers.

As has been stated, this is a regional thing and a breed thing. It has been debated ”until the cows come home for milking” as the old saying goes🤠🤠


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

Chestnut? Sorrel? Red is red is red, same gene. Kind of like different regions calling a plant by different names but it's the same plant. The rest is just what people make up.
From my era, chestnut was more of an English style word and chestnut was more of a western style word.


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## Linoone (11 mo ago)

QtrBel said:


> Here most english types are referred to as sorrel and western types are chestnut.


I'm pretty sure you have that backwards. I was always taught that _Sorrel _is a *Western *term and that _Chestnut _is a *English *term.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

Linoone said:


> I'm pretty sure you have that backwards. I was always taught that _Sorrel _is a *Western *term and that _Chestnut _is a *English *term.


I guess that's been flipped around like most things these days.


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## Zimalia22 (Jun 15, 2021)

Here, that would be called a sorrel. 
Chestnut is a totally different color. 
Nothing finer than a deep red chestnut, the redder the better.


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## My Salty Pony (Jan 1, 2022)

I have 3 sorrels and they are all 3 different shades of sorrel but they are sorrel, one has a darker red mane and tail and the others are lighter, I didnt know that these two colors Chestnut and Sorrel were ever a Regional color thing, here its always been a Sorrel is a sorrel and a Chestnut was a Chestnut unless its a Liver Chestnut. To us they are both a different color, a sorrel is not the same as a Chestnut, they are two different colors. AQHA has 23 colors that they Recognize, Chestnut and Sorrel are listed as two separate colors.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Linoone said:


> I'm pretty sure you have that backwards. I was always taught that _Sorrel _is a *Western *term and that _Chestnut _is a *English *term.


No I don't. I know full well what disciplines and colors are attached in THIS area. It may be different in other areas but here it is the way I stated. In Texas my red drafts were called palominos by those that rode saddle horses. Even our vet referred to them as palomino. You'd think he'd know better but just like nutrition classes the genetics (especially color) are lacking. Why were the reds lighter than typical because many had pangare. Not because they were palomino which they weren't. The draft horse people called my Belgians sorrel and Suffolks chestnuts. Both are red and while many Belgians are lighter and many Suffolks darker it didn't matter the shade; the term went with the breed as far as they were concerned.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

My Salty Pony said:


> I have 3 sorrels and they are all 3 different shades of sorrel but they are sorrel, one has a darker red mane and tail and the others are lighter, I didnt know that these two colors Chestnut and Sorrel were ever a Regional color thing, here its always been a Sorrel is a sorrel and a Chestnut was a Chestnut unless its a Liver Chestnut. To us they are both a different color, a sorrel is not the same as a Chestnut, they are two different colors. AQHA has 23 colors that they Recognize, Chestnut and Sorrel are listed as two separate colors.


Ahhh, but the issue is all sorrel and chestnuts are genetically the same. Just like over the pond all buckskins are dun because of the language translations. Same with brown and bay. All browns and bays carry E and A. Genetically no difference but the range of shades is tremendous. The registries need to start considering genetics. 🤔


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

From the AQHA website



> Although genetically the same color, sorrel and chestnut are used to define different shades of the recessive red gene. A chestnut horse’s coat has a brown tint, with the most extreme color being an almost dark brown “liver” color. Sorrels, on the other hand, appear redder or copper colored. This color can have variations, such as a flaxen mane (sometimes confused with palomino) or have a dark mane and tail, which is caused by a higher concentration of pigment.


Around here a Quarter Horse that is this color is "Sorrel" no matter what shade it is, unless it is also something else like Roan or Dun.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

I’ve only called two horses chestnut in my life, and they both were probably the liver chestnut. They were super dark.

I also thought calling sorrels chestnut was an English thing. Every horse around here, excepting the livers, are called sorrels.


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## Linoone (11 mo ago)

My Salty Pony said:


> AQHA has 23 colors that they Recognize, Chestnut and Sorrel are listed as two separate colors.


The AQHA actually only recognizes 17 colors - https://f.hubspotusercontent20.net/...c=106933468.3.1661036644071&__hsfp=2401223041 

Further more, breed registries would be one of the _last _places I would look at when it comes to attaining accurate genetic information. And the AQHA is probably one of the *worst *ones when it comes accepting advances in genetics. As that Ebook shows, they do not recognize the Champagne, Silver and Pearl genes... Despite the fact that DNA-verified Quarter Horses come in those colors! And to be frank, have probably been in the breed's genepool since the beginning. 

For goodness sake, they don't even recognize Smoky Black or Smoky Cream! Which is just the Cream gene and how it expresses on Black horses. 

And of course, who could forget about how they -To this very day- *still *kick up a fuss about _Gasp!_ how the LP gene and the variety of Pinto genes occasionally crop up and produce _Horror of horrors!_ _horses with excessive white patterning_! Oh noes! The worst thing ever! /s


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## My Salty Pony (Jan 1, 2022)

Chestnut, Sorrel, Black, Brown,Gray,Bay,Palomino, Buckskin, Smoky Black, Smoky Cream, Cremello, Perlino, White, Classic Champagne, Amber Champagne, Gold Champagne, Dun,Red Dun, Grullo, Red Roam, Bay Roam, Brown Roam and Blue Roam.. These are listed with AQHA.
@Linoone ,I didnt come on here for a Argument on color of horses, I'm just adding my 2 cents... A Sorrel is a Sorrel and a Chestnut is a Chestnut, this is what we call them here. AQHA has the color's listed so argue with them are send them a E-Mail and tell them that they are wrong, I dont care. I have Sorrels and did a few times have Chestnuts, and they were listed on their Reg. papers as so. I didnt mention AQHA so they could be bashed on here, Been with AQHA for many years and I think they do a pretty darn good job, if they didnt then why are they the biggest Registration out there? I know few have had problems and complaints with them, but so far so good with me.


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## Linoone (11 mo ago)

QtrBel said:


> No I don't. I know full well what disciplines and colors are attached in THIS area. It may be different in other areas but here it is the way I stated.


Well alright then, understood. 



QtrBel said:


> In Texas my red drafts were called palominos by those that rode saddle horses.


This I can actually understand. To the genetically ignorant, a Flaxen Red and a Palomino could appear similar looking. Even if it's a laughable mistake from the POV of those who know better. 



QtrBel said:


> Even our vet referred to them as palomino. You'd think he'd know better but just like nutrition classes the genetics (especially color) are lacking.


It's always a shame when the professionals who _should _know better don't and proceed to spread misinformation near and far. It's especially irksome when one considers how the nearly all of us carry super computers in our pockets nowadays, which means that the correct information is quite literally at our fingertips. Hell, I learned most of what I know about horse color genes from Wikipedia! 

(Kudos to whoever initially wrote that series of articles and to the editors who maintain them! They contain a wealth of information expressed in easy to grasp language- Just overall an excellent intro to horse colors and the genes behind them.) 



QtrBel said:


> Why were the reds lighter than typical because many had pangare. Not because they were palomino which they weren't.


Pangare does have that tendency. Haflingers are another breed of Red horse who express it and some can be downright washy looking, to the point that the layperson would never hear "Red horse" and think "Ah yes, Haflingers." 

In spite of that, Pangare fascinates me. It's such an ancient gene, to the point that I believe our solid colored horses are the mutation, not the other way around! After all, the last existing wild horses -The Przwalski's!- are Dun with Pangare. 



QtrBel said:


> The draft horse people called my Belgians sorrel and Suffolks chestnuts.


Fun fact - Red horses with Pangare are often called "Beligan Sorrels"! Probably why your Belgians got called what they did. Suffolks are interesting in that they are only ever referred to as Chestnuts or rather as the breed society calls it "Chesnut" (Evidently that's the "traditional" spelling). 



QtrBel said:


> Both are red and while many Belgians are lighter and many Suffolks darker it didn't matter the shade; the term went with the breed as far as they were concerned.


So in general - People are ignorant and often resistant to change. Clinging to tradition despite continuing advances, something which I forever fail at trying to understand.


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## Linoone (11 mo ago)

My Salty Pony said:


> Chestnut, Sorrel, Black, Brown,Gray,Bay,Palomino, Buckskin, Smoky Black, Smoky Cream, Cremello, Perlino, White, Classic Champagne, Amber Champagne, Gold Champagne, Dun,Red Dun, Grullo, Red Roam, Bay Roam, Brown Roam and Blue Roam.. These are listed with AQHA.


Lol, not according to the _official _colors Ebook that I posted a link to. I literally downloaded that off of the AQHA website! It's not outdated either, every color page that I dug up on that site redirected to it.



My Salty Pony said:


> I didnt come on here for a Argument on color of horses, I'm just adding my 2 cents...


Does my tone come across as argumentative or something? I apologize if it does, that is the last thing I intend. Genetics fascinate me and I love getting the chance to educate people about them! Discussion of course may lead to lively debates, but it shouldn't spawn endless arguments. That's certainly not what I was aiming for when I replied to your initial comment.



My Salty Pony said:


> A Sorrel is a Sorrel and a Chestnut is a Chestnut, this is what we call them here.


Ah yes, tradition. Not something I put much stake in, after all, if advances how been made that disprove it... Why continue to insist upon it? Meh, when you're someone as thirsty for knowledge as I am, it's exceeding frustrating to see people stick to something merely for the sake of "We've always called it that."



My Salty Pony said:


> AQHA has the color's listed so argue with them are send them a E-Mail and tell them that they are wrong, I dont care.


XD I'd be happy to drag the AQHA kicking and screaming into the 2020's understanding of equine coat color genetics if I thought that any email I sent to them would be read by somebody who would appreciate my input and be receptive to updating the rules.



My Salty Pony said:


> I have Sorrels and did a few times have Chestnuts, and they were listed on their Reg. papers as so.


Cool! I'm glad to hear that you were satisfied with how your horses were recorded within the AQHA.

But I also think of how *irritating *it must be for owners of Quarter Horses who come in unrecognized colors and patterns having to have _their _horses recorded incorrectly because the AQHA simply doesn't provide the correct categories for them.



My Salty Pony said:


> I didnt mention AQHA so they could be bashed on here.


Yeah, this is something that I've never been able to understand. I can't fathom being so loyal to a breed registry that mild criticism of their not updating their standards in acknowledgement of DNA advances is looked down upon and discouraged. I mean, if the wrong information is being put out - Why shouldn't the members of that registry demand that info be changed in the name of accuracy?



My Salty Pony said:


> Been with AQHA for many years and I think they do a pretty darn good job, if they didnt then why are they the biggest Registration out there?


Because the *Quarter Horse is *very *good at what they've been bred to do and remarkably versatile at trying their hands (Or should it be Hooves...) at anything and everything and coming out with high marks for it? 

Because the Quarter Horse have had a *really *good PR team behind it since the '40's? 

Not that I would consider sheer numbers alone to be worthy of high praise.

*Stock Horse Breeds in general IMHO, I mean come on - We all know that they come from the same general genepool and have the same general history. The differences between them largely come down to phenotype, which is the silliest thing ever if you ask me.



My Salty Pony said:


> I know few have had problems and complaints with them, but so far so good with me.


Awesome! I'm happy to hear that you like and feel supported by the AQHA. 

But no breed registry should be above criticism and those who do have complaints should feel free to express them. Vigorously if need be.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I had learned Sorrel was a western term and Chestnut was an english term but then I was corrected and told the deep red copper was the sorrel and the deep red shade was chestnut but it looks like people are thinking differently here. In my opinion this horse could go either way but the mane has me wanting to call it a chestnut. 

Maybe to each his own?


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

It's a regional thing, a breed thing, a person to person thing, a discipline thing. Where I grew up it was English called it chestnut and Western called it sorrel, didn't matter the shade. I never heard a TB on the track called anything but a chestnut, and since I grew up riding huntseat, all I ever heard or called a horse was chestnut. Then I got involved with Western Pleasure and heard Sorrel. Only time I'd heard anyting called Sorrel was the winter boots. LOL!


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## sumozmom (Mar 13, 2012)

*Sorrel horses have an entirely red base color, while chestnuts coats are often brown or liver tint*. Moreover, sorrels can have flaxen manes and tails, IMHO


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## dkgoodman (Oct 20, 2013)

LoriF said:


> I guess that's been flipped around like most things these days.


You are SO right about that!! In "my day", Chestnut = flaxen mane and tail, more likely "chrome", i.e., white legs, blaze, etc. and would win more if ridden English. Sorrel = mane and tail similar or same color w/no "chrome" and ridden western.

But, either is correct. Don't let the forum get STARTED on paint vs pinto!!

I'm 68 yrs old and these colors have been totally turned upside down and around. Funny!!


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## Whinnie (Aug 9, 2015)

I you think this is confusing, try listing all the different shades of Bay. Although they are still Bay.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

Whinnie said:


> I you think this is confusing, try listing all the different shades of Bay. Although they are still Bay.


One region calls it this another calls it that. 30 years ago it was something different than it is now. None of this is right or wrong. None of it matters as no matter what you call it (cherry, rose, jam, merlot, ruby, garnet, chestnut or sorrel) it's still just red.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

I thought the mane and tail decide the colour, not the body of the horse
A chestnut has a reddish mane and tail
A sorry has a blond mane and tail
I have owned both
He is a chestnut


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

This is my chestnut and his mane and tail are red


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

RoadRider said:


> I thought the mane and tail decide the colour, not the body of the horse
> A chestnut has a reddish mane and tail
> A sorry has a blond mane and tail
> I have owned both
> He is a chestnut


Are you sure what I thought isn't right? lol. Since this thread, I've looked up many articles on the difference between chestnuts and sorrels. It runs the gamut from no difference to what shade they are to one has white markings and implied that the other doesn't. One article even tells you how much they each cost. 
My conclusion. Genetically, no proven difference. Phenotypically whatever you want it to be.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

What she said....
Genetically they are all the same. That blonde mane and tail on a red is flaxen. Add pangare if you want extra blonde showing up elsewhere.


RoadRider said:


> I thought the mane and tail decide the colour, not the body of the horse


 If this were the case all horses with black manes and tails would be black. Your Rio would be black... You wouldn't have bay. And, all those with blonde manes and tails would be palomino not sorrel or chestnut or silver or frosted buckskin....


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

QtrBel said:


> If this were the case all horses with black manes and tails would be black. Your Rio would be black... You wouldn't have bay. And, all those with blonde manes and tails would be palomino not sorrel or chestnut or silver or frosted buckskin....


I was referring to the sorrel vs chestnut
I had a sorrel, red body colour, flaxen mane and tail
Later I got a chestnut, matching mane and tail to his body colour, red
I wrongly came to the conclusion that the difference was the flaxen mane and tail vs the red mane and tail 
on the chestnut
Striders papers called him a chestnut
My dad a horseman called my sorrel a sorrel

Ran this question by the girls at the barn and instantly the answer was mane and tail?????

I am anxious to see what is the answer
Some countries don't recognize the sorrel horse. That was another answer from a knowledgeable lady this morning
The arabs use to love the chestnut horse
White horses have weak feet, black horses melt in the sun?? Horses of the Sahara


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

dkgoodman said:


> You are SO right about that!! In "my day", Chestnut = flaxen mane and tail, more likely "chrome", i.e., white legs, blaze, etc. and would win more if ridden English. Sorrel = mane and tail similar or same color w/no "chrome" and ridden western.


To me this is just opposite but change the chestnut, sorrel description around and that is what I use to believe


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

The answer is that there is no answer. They are the same genetically no matter how different phenotypically. Sorrel or chestnut or liver or even chocolate and whatever else people have come up with they are ee genetically.. red. Phenotype descriptions change based on location, tradition, breed, discipline...


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

I had a registed chestnut for 17 years, mane, tail and body one color
A lady at the barn today has a registered chestnut, mane, tail body , one color
Told her he was a sorrel
She said NO. His mane and tail would have to be lighter to be called a sorrol
Two people who know everything can not be wrong????LOL


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

My registered chestnut


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

Here is my registered sorrel. I think everyone is right that a sorrel and chestnut are interchangeable. I do call something liver colored chestnut, and everything else sorrel.







Now, here is a horse called sorrel on his BLM paperwork- (just a funny picture, I didn’t want to hunt up a better one because I just cleaned my camera role and updated everything to Shutterfly)







So, if it’s the registration you are arguing it is done as sorrel on both these different registries. Red is red.


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## My Salty Pony (Jan 1, 2022)

And my one of my Registered Sorrels..


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## My Salty Pony (Jan 1, 2022)

My Reg. Chestnut


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

That one I’d actually call a chestnut too @My Salty Pony. Lol


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## My Salty Pony (Jan 1, 2022)

Knave said:


> That one I’d actually call a chestnut too @My Salty Pony. Lol


I did have a picture of him getting his belly scratched by hubby but the forum didn't like it and would not show the picture so had to redo pictures, lol..And load a different one..
Yep, I think its safe to call this one a Chestnut, ha ha ha ha..


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## younghorsetrainer (5 mo ago)

My Salty Pony said:


> My Reg. Chestnut
> View attachment 1137105
> View attachment 1137108


Whaaaaaaaaat an Awwsome shot of him barrel racing!! And such a pretty horse too!


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## My Salty Pony (Jan 1, 2022)

younghorsetrainer said:


> Whaaaaaaaaat an Awwsome shot of him barrel racing!! And such a pretty horse too!


Awwww,well thank you so much!!! 
He was a pretty great horse in my opinion, and loved the attention..


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

Good thing we are not like mantis shrimps who have 16 cones in their eyes. We would really be arguing about color shades then.


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