# TWH horses, cruel or not?



## .Delete.

Just curious, with showing TWH horses, the pads the chains the weight. Im not too sure where i stand on this because i do not know that much information on it. I would like to learn more on it and peoples opinions on it. Here is a video of them, i know its a cruelty video but it has good footage of horses in the ring. So, humane or not?


----------



## muumi

not even a question. inhumane. very very cruel and inhumane.
and unnatural. why is that monstrous exaggerated version of the gait even considered attractive? i personally much prefer the natural barefoot version of it (there was a short snippet of it in the video).

WHEN and IF this happens, its truly Evil. 

but i guess thats all i can say, as i dont know firsthand myself when and where this happens, and have nothing to do with the TWH world, i also only get my information from news reports etc, so this is just another outsider's opinion.


----------



## .Delete.

muumi said:


> but i guess thats all i can say, as i dont know firsthand myself when and where this happens, and have nothing to do with the TWH world, i also only get my information from news reports etc, so this is just another outsider's opinion.


Agreed. I know this subject has been run dry on here and i really should have searched for threads on this instead of starting a new one. 

But i guess this is along the same lines as weighted shoes they put on flat seat horses.


----------



## gigem88

Very cruel in my book. The trainers (and I use the term loosely) go to great lengths to hide what they do as well as threaten people who try and stop them. If you gotta hide it or try to hide it, you know that it's wrong.


----------



## skycon

Well, I was clueless to this type of training. So incredibly sad how people take this route in order to train horses. It is not "training" at all. Defiantly abusive. I once knew someone who tied a horse's head up high in their stall so that, come showtime, it would keep it nice and low because of the strain and tiredness. I feel that some people are only equestrians for the sport and do not share our love for horses.


----------



## muumi

.Delete. said:


> Agreed. I know this subject has been run dry on here and i really should have searched for threads on this instead of starting a new one.
> 
> But i guess this is along the same lines as weighted shoes they put on flat seat horses.


personally, i think we cant talk about this type of thing enough...
so yay for starting another thread.


----------



## .Delete.

skycon said:


> Well, I was clueless to this type of training. So incredibly sad how people take this route in order to train horses. It is not "training" at all. Defiantly abusive. I once knew someone who tied a horse's head up high in their stall so that, come showtime, it would keep it nice and low because of the strain and tiredness. I feel that some people are only equestrians for the sport and do not share our love for horses.


Thats really common


----------



## Kiviknon

I've always said if I ever win the lottery, I'm hiring a lobbying firm and getting the laws, and funding needed to crack down on these people. Soring is another huge hot spot for me. I've been known to beat a guy down if I see him abusing his horses.


----------



## .Delete.

Kiviknon said:


> I've always said if I ever win the lottery, I'm hiring a lobbying firm and getting the laws, and funding needed to crack down on these people. Soring is another huge hot spot for me. I've been known to beat a guy down if I see him abusing his horses.


To the people doing this its perfectly ok. There is a very wide range of what can be considered abuse, its all personal opinion. Like i see nothing wrong with tying around a horse to their tail. But many people see that as absolutely disgusting.


----------



## skycon

She was the only person I have heard about doing that. What a lazy way to get a low head.


----------



## Lakotababii

Yeah the walking horse show world can be interesting.

I started out on Walkers, bought from someone who had world champions. They seemed like nice people, but I never really enjoyed their training methods. Chains and stuff, I don't know why that is necessary. When I got the horse (I was 12) they told me to use a harsh bit and yank on his face until I got the correct headset. Oh and NEVER canter a walker.. 

I didn't listen. I moved him from his 6 inch shanks to a hackamore, on a loose rein, bareback, cantering across open fields and gaiting, naturally, with or without shoes. 

So much for the "perfect" Tennessee Walker. :roll:


----------



## Joe4d

If you want to crack down on it you have to change the way the way they are judged. 
I quickly canceled my membership and affiliation with the VA TWH associations. I wanted no part of the soring and bs methods they use.
Yes I know they pay lip service to being against it. But then they judge events specifically on how well a horse performs methods obtained by chemical and physical abuse. 
If you are against soring, get rid of open , stack shoes, and awarding points for the unnatural high stepping gaits. Like many so called "Shows" they are only succeeding in ruining the breeds for what they were originally intended. Just like the dog world.


----------



## Saddlebag

What often isn't thought of is what the huge overstride is doing to the back end. Their hocks and stifles wear out. I was interested in a 4 yr old that was stacked as the trainer definitely had ideas of winning but when I watched him move from behind, his joints were wobbling badly. I would have had him gradually lowered but no one could have convinced me the damage wasn't already done. A friend bo't a 7 yr old ex show mare for trail riding but her joints were already arthritic, thus the end of not only a show career but as a trail horse as well.


----------



## THN

There is no question that what happened to my TWH was inhumane. The people who owned him before me wern't getting the reaction they wanted with pads or light chains so they decided to put bigger heavier chains on. the TWH industry has gone too far.


----------



## .Delete.

Lakotababii said:


> Oh and NEVER canter a walker..


Iv heard that! Why would you never canter a walker?


----------



## Lakotababii

.Delete. said:


> Iv heard that! Why would you never canter a walker?



Some people have convinced themselves that if you canter a walker, they will lose their gait and always canter or pace. 

It's baloney if you ask me. My walker actually gaited better after letting off some steam at a canter. 

Walkers are just like any other horse, they should be worked at all the gaits. If you want to gait, you must first teach them to walk out good. If you want to canter, you must teach them to gait well. If you do it right, they can be cantered easily and be brought back to a very smooth, ground covering gait. 

Oh and their canters are usually very comfortable! They call it the "rocking chair" canter and they aren't kidding!


----------



## sommsama09

gigem88 said:


> Very cruel in my book. The trainers (and I use the term loosely) go to great lengths to hide what they do as well as threaten people who try and stop them. If you gotta hide it or try to hide it, you know that it's wrong.


 I COMPLETLY agree.


----------



## SayiWont

Very inhumane. :evil:

I used to own a TWH gelding that was padded for a long period of time. We had to teach him how to walk like a normal horse again. This was a long and expensive process consisting of multiple shoeings with the shoe's weight decreasing each time until he could walk like a normal horse again. He was not ridden during this time period because of the stress.

Most people that do that don't care about their horse's health. They just care about how much money they can win off of them. Once the horse becomes so lame that he can no longer be shown, the owner throws him away and gets another horse to screw up. Padding messes up several muscles, tendons, and joints. Padding makes perfectly sound horses lame quick.

IMO, padding is just making a crap horse that doesn't have any good showing potential "better". I have seen and know of some TWH that have that high knee action naturally; my gelding and his sire being perfect examples. If a horse can't naturally perform well, "trainers" and owners will do anything possible to make money off of the horse. This can range from padding, soring, or using chains that are tightened to cause pain and make the horse more flashy and showy. I don't agree with any of it. If your horse can't perform well enough to win, don't attempt to make it "better" by using extreme forms of cruelty and abuse.

My mom, whom used to be on the board for a local horse rescue, wrote a pamplet about this not too long ago. One of the things that she put in there that really stuck with me is this:
"Padded horses are kept in inhumane conditions. They are stuck living in cramped stalls without the ability to just be a horse. They don't get turned out in a field like other horses; they are confined to a stall year round. Imagine if you had to stand in a phone booth wearing one high-heeled shoe all day everyday. That is how a padded TWH lives."


----------



## SaddleDragon

.Delete. said:


> Agreed. I know this subject has been run dry on here and i really should have searched for threads on this instead of starting a new one.
> 
> But i guess this is along the same lines as weighted shoes they put on flat seat horses.


Just wanted to point out that the pads and weight on a saddlebred is NOTHING like the stacks the TWH's use. Our pads are about a 1/2 inch ( at most), the stacks are Inches! Please dont lump us all together. As time went by the TWH people bred for a specific gait and lost motion. Saddlebreds were bred for motion, so they dont need nearly as much.....stacks, chains, etc. All the asb stuff is very light in comparrison.
Not all TWH show horses wear them either. 
TWH's Cruel? No. Some trainers, in any breed, yep. Bad apples anywhere you look.


----------



## Joe4d

I dont think any horses need any of it more than a pad or she to protect feet from the terrain. 
And early poster mentioned, "Not perform enough to win"
That is the whole problem, the win part. The TWH organizations that judge the events that reward this type of behavior. Knowing exactly how the horse got that way, but claiming to be against it. Hypocrites if you ask me.


----------



## Theresa1

Lakotababii said:


> Some people have convinced themselves that if you canter a walker, they will lose their gait and always canter or pace.
> 
> It's baloney if you ask me. My walker actually gaited better after letting off some steam at a canter.
> 
> Walkers are just like any other horse, they should be worked at all the gaits. If you want to gait, you must first teach them to walk out good. If you want to canter, you must teach them to gait well. If you do it right, they can be cantered easily and be brought back to a very smooth, ground covering gait.
> 
> Oh and their canters are usually very comfortable! They call it the "rocking chair" canter and they aren't kidding!


That seems to be the opinion on gaited horses in general. I went to look at a TWH that was for sale once, and (before I knew better :roll asked for a canter. The owner flipped out on me. Personally, I don't want a horse that can't canter, so even my gaited horses learn to as soon as they are set in their gait. I will say, when I first started cantering my Rocky, he would try to skip gaiting and go right into the canter. I'm told cantering is easier for them, and that is why that tends to happen. We are working on gaiting again, but will definately continue to canter as time goes on.


----------



## muumi

SaddleDragon said:


> TWH's Cruel? No. Some trainers, in any breed, yep. Bad apples anywhere you look.


i disagree, with respect. Putting these stacks that are inches high, and put so much pressure on the joints of the leg, and even the integrity of the hoof itself (i've heard of hooves bursting open from the top!), is cruelty, no matter how 'nice' and 'kind' the trainer may otherwise be. Horses are crippled at young ages because of this type of shoeing alone, soring or not!

and also, we are not talking about saddlebreds, this discussion is about TWH.


----------



## SaddleDragon

.Delete. said:


> But i guess this is along the same lines as weighted shoes they put on flat seat horses.


The breeds get lumped together all the time. Just like this^^^. Im tired of people who think they know, but dont. The heaviest shoe/pad combo in asb's is still lighter than the smallest stack for TWH.



muumi said:


> i disagree, with respect. Putting these stacks that are inches high, and put so much pressure on the joints of the leg, and even the integrity of the hoof itself (i've heard of hooves bursting open from the top!), is cruelty, no matter how 'nice' and 'kind' the trainer may otherwise be. Horses are crippled at young ages because of this type of shoeing alone, soring or not!
> 
> and also, we are not talking about saddlebreds, this discussion is about TWH.


Not all walking horses wear those! Its one division that wears them. I dont like them either, but its not cruel. The soring that SOME do, thats whats cruel.
Dont bash a whole breed for *one* division they offer. I know of many TWH folks that absolutly hate the stacks and such. So no, its not all of them. Should they quit a breed the love just because of the stacks or soring. Id hope not. One must stand up for their belifs and leaving a breed they love because of controversy is a silly.


OP, there is cruely in EVERY breed and every dicipline. Please dont judge the TWH because of people. They are good solid horses that have got caught up in the rediculiousness of people. If the TWH wants motion like that they could have bred for it, but instead the bred for the RW and lost the motion. Now they want it back and the only way to get it is breed for it and wait or 'stack 'em high'.


----------



## muumi

SaddleDragon said:


> Not all walking horses wear those! Its one division that wears them. I dont like them either, but its not cruel. The soring that SOME do, thats whats cruel.


you are right, its not all classes, but its is the big lick classes and trainers that we are discussing here in this particular thread, and in my opinion, as i said before, its cruel.


----------



## SaddleDragon

FYI, Title doesnt asy big lick. It says "TWH, cruel or not?"


----------



## Joe4d

Nobody is saying quit the breed, I love the breed, I say quit the shows, and quit the companies that sponsor the shows until the shows change. And make sure the sponsors know why you are not buying from them.


----------



## Lakotababii

Oh we are not bashing the breed. The breed is AWESOME! :wink: It is just the morons who interfere to make them "pretty" that tick me off.


And yes, cantering a TWH can make them canter happy. But then again, if they haven't been cantered before for how ever many years, of course they are canter happy. If you only walk and trot a non-gaited horse for 10 years,and then ask it to canter, it will likely do the same thing.

My point being, it is not inherent to the breed that they like to canter more. It is just something novel to them at first. With training (just like any other breed) they can do any gait without breaking for a long time. It takes skill and practice to be able to get the proper gaits out of TWHs, but then again, so does getting the proper trot out of a QH.


----------



## .Delete.

Agreed we are not bashing the breed. I put the title that way to keep it short an simple. I actually plan on buyin a nice big TWH when I get older for trails. I enjoy to breed, just not that aspect of it
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Joe4d

Thats my walker in my Avatar, I'll never own anything else.


----------



## Phantomcolt18

I think the training is cruel....love the horses only experienced one but I fell in love!

The trainers go to horrible lengths. I have heard of trainers using chains with spikes in them(not in shows) and also poking pinholes on the back of their foot under the fetlock and rubbing cyanne(Sp?) pepper onto the holes before a show to get that ugly exaggerated gait.

Here's a vid (sorry if it was posted on here before.) of a COMING 2 year old so the poor girl isn't even 2, her joints are going to be detroyed well before she sees the double digits. 




 
And another video from the same training facility. Another COMING 2 year old. The poor babies.




 
The trainers will do whatever to win and if they have to cover their @$$es to do it they will the entire way.


----------



## .Delete.

Lol that horses joints will be gone before double digits that's for sure
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SayiWont

The sad thing is that a lot of TWHs are started at 18 months with pads. It a common thing around here to see 18 month olds started under saddle and showing. By the time they reach the double digits, if they do, they are broken down and completely unsound. By then, the "trainers" and owners have thrown them aside or just simply quit feeding them.

I personally know of a few walking horses that have the high knee action naturally. My horse and his sire are two of them. Doc, my horse's sire, wins a lot and even beats padded horses. He simply has better knee action naturally. He is 18 and still sound and showing. Never been padded and is flat shod all showing season. Below is a picture of him.

Real Quality Show Horse









vs

The Padded Crap Normally Seen









Which would you chose?


----------



## Lakotababii

SayiWont said:


>


KUDOS to this dude! He is holding true to the REAL Tennessee Walker. Gorgeous horse with an awesome running walk! It is great to see the ones that aren't misused being shown. Now only if we could get the TWHBEA and the judges on board....


----------



## Celeste

TWH's are shown at the canter. The big lick horses have a really weird canter, but it is a canter. The horses that are shown at a rack are never cantered because they may break out of their rack at fast gaits. These are great horses. People treat them like crap. They deliberately make them lame for money. 

I have had two TWH's in my life. They were always just natural horses. I still have one. He is 24 years old. He and his mother before him had (he still has) wonderful gaits. Great canters. Smooth running walks. Perfect pleasure horses. 

Anybody that thinks that putting ginger in a horse's rectum to make it tuck it's butt in nicely, or putting caustic stuff on their feet to make them sore, or cutting the ligaments in their tail so that it can be forced into a weird brace, or putting them in shoes that are 6 inches high, or keeping them in a dark stall 2/7 is humane is evil. How can anybody be so mean? 
There is no doubt a hot place in the pits of hades waiting for them in the next life .........


----------



## Brighteyes

SayiWont said:


> Real Quality Show Horse


 
What's his registered name? Nice horse!


----------



## goneriding

Why are the judges allowing it? Those so called judges aren't true horse people! Why is it being allowed? That isn't pretty, it's horrific! There should be major penalties with major fines. The people competing are just as bad! Your basically crippling your horse to get a ribbon. How selfish of human beings to treat an animal that way, disgusting.


----------



## jannette

.Delete. said:


> To the people doing this its perfectly ok. There is a very wide range of what can be considered abuse, its all personal opinion. Like i see nothing wrong with tying around a horse to their tail. But many people see that as absolutely disgusting.


 
ive done that it works lol...but it doesnt cause "pain"...

Torture vb:to punish or force someone to do or say something by causing great pain.....(webster's dictionary)

soo if it walks like a duck talks like a duck looks like a duck......probably not a butterfly...just sayin it personally made me want to strap that junk and the trainer...:twisted:


----------



## caseymyhorserocks

So sad. I feel so sorry for these horses. Not only are they often put through pain, they rarely get to have fun ..


----------



## jannette

caseymyhorserocks said:


> So sad. I feel so sorry for these horses. Not only are they often put through pain, they rarely get to have fun ..


 breaks my heart.....


----------



## SayiWont

Brighteyes said:


> What's his registered name? Nice horse!


I believe it is Fast Movin Train. Not for sure though.


----------



## bellagris

SaddleDragon said:


> The breeds get lumped together all the time. Just like this^^^. Im tired of people who think they know, but dont. The heaviest shoe/pad combo in asb's is still lighter than the smallest stack for TWH.
> 
> 
> 
> Not all walking horses wear those! Its one division that wears them. I dont like them either, but its not cruel. The soring that SOME do, thats whats cruel.
> Dont bash a whole breed for *one* division they offer. I know of many TWH folks that absolutly hate the stacks and such. So no, its not all of them. Should they quit a breed the love just because of the stacks or soring. Id hope not. One must stand up for their belifs and leaving a breed they love because of controversy is a silly.
> 
> 
> OP, there is cruely in EVERY breed and every dicipline. Please dont judge the TWH because of people. They are good solid horses that have got caught up in the rediculiousness of people. If the TWH wants motion like that they could have bred for it, but instead the bred for the RW and lost the motion. Now they want it back and the only way to get it is breed for it and wait or 'stack 'em high'.


 
Very good point, I think TWH does get lumped into one division, do I think padding etc is the way to go? No, but I do know that just because it is the section of the breed that recieves the largest amount of media doesn't mean that the entire breed is walking the same path. There are plenty of walkers our there in shows or not that are natural moving and great solid horses. To me stacking of any kind is a little bizarre, even if it is smaller than the smallest, do I think it is cruel if it is within reason? No not necessarily cruel, but to me if the horse is a good horse and talented enough for showing, you shouldn't need it. That is the kind of horse I want to show...not a horse with gimmicks. But again, some people use them for animation (small stacks, weighted shoes etc) and it gives them an edge I guess. 

I agree that the padded horses have turned their breeding around and it is now that they are bred for less motion as they want pacey so that the the angle they are moving at in the pace with pads makes them walk more. I own and train TWH mare in Canada and she has amazing motion and naturally gaited enough that she runwalks in the pasture. I trail ride her or show her either barefoot or with regular shoes on because of the trails and she canters beautifully with ease. In Western Canada we focus a lot more on the showing quality of a naturally gaited horse and they best natural movement. 


Some pictures of her at recent shows (barefoot or regular trail riding shoes)


----------



## Corporal

I don't have to read the other posts--it's inhumane and unnecessary. It's a cruel shortcut. You know, many people train their horses to drive FIRST bc it strengthens their hindquarters without weight bearing stress. When you see the average TWH doing what he/she loves to do, which is fly along at a running walk on a trail, the horse displays what we like to see in the show ring, except he/she has the tail up in the air to show happiness. There are SO MANY ways to build the muscle and encourage overstepping with cavaletti and the like, I wonder why PETA selectively ignores this and picks on our other more sensible equine pursuits. Guess they're paid off. **noises of disgust**


----------



## Skyseternalangel

Corporal said:


> There are SO MANY ways to build the muscle and encourage overstepping with cavaletti and the like, I wonder why PETA selectively ignores this and picks on our other more sensible equine pursuits. Guess they're paid off. **noises of disgust**


That's a very good point.


----------



## walkinhorsechic

I love walkers. I used to show them in the "big" association shows when I was in middle/high school. I never could understand why I NEVER (and I mean never in 5/6 years) won a first place in any of the flat-shod classes I participated in. And then I realized what was going on. As a kid, I saw some of this soring happening at the shows/barns I would visit but I had no idea what it was and, sadly, I know many my age and younger that think it is okay because their friends/family/whoever has always done it. And then I realized - I wasn't doing well because my horses were completely natural. These days, I just trail ride and occasionally open show my girls. 

I love the walking horse. I love their natural gait. I also love to watch a horse run across a pasture when turned out. After being around this industry for so long I can tell you that the heavy shoes BY THEMSELVES do not hurt the horse if put on properly. That being said, you can't safely turn one out on pads without risky injury and - on a personal level - I don't agree with that. 

So, don't judge an entire breed/showing practice based on what you see in the news. There are plenty of people that show walkers that genuinely love their horses. At the same time, I have seen way too many instances of soring to be okay with the current state of the show circuit. I got out and back to the fun, open shows for a reason. This is a situation where some "side" is going to get hurt no matter the results. Either innocent, good-hearted walking horse exhibitionists are going to lose the ability to show when they have done nothing wrong or people that cheat (and yes, I feel that soring/illegal shoeing/etc is cheating) are going to be able to keep doing so. 

As for me, my barefooted walking mares and I will be happily playing in the woods and at $5-per-class fun shows far away from the big shows.


----------



## walkinhorsechic

As an added side note, I apologize for reviving such an old post. I am new on here and misread the last posting date. I'll keep a closer eye on that from here on out


----------



## stevenson

I find that to be disgusting. Not all trainers do this. THe ones that do so need banned. The judges and the rules need to change. I do not like PETA or the HSUS as alot of the money does not go towards the animals but pays ceo's
I am also against tying a horse for hours on end. Tying with its head and neck stretched up ,
tying the head down for a collected look . Roping and tripping the horses for sport. and Horse fighting as done in some of the other countries. 
I am also against over breeding wether it be a personal horse or from a farm/ranch of any breed, shipping horses to mexico, and starving horses because of whatever excuse anyone has.


----------



## Aesthetic

To me TWH shows that allow spring and the trainers who put their horses through the exaggerated pain deserve to be whipped. No only do they wear it in shows but how many get to stand in a stall on their bare feet? 
I've seen rescued TWHs that have to Go through months of rehab on their feet, and crazy amounts of supplements to help their joints. A friend of mine had a horse that took 8 months to trim and care for his hooves back to normal. He is still on joint supplements after a good three years and the horse is rode in a hackamore. When they got him, he has open sores in his mouth from whatever bit they were using. 
He's an absolutely great trail horse, and actually she wants to start using him as a Playday horse. I told her to go for it. He'd enjoy the various events. 
I love the breed, I hate the deed.


----------



## womack29

I own a TWH that I use for trail and I look at this as being cruel.


----------

