# Breeding Mystery. Special Case! Help!



## ThoroughbredJumper (Oct 30, 2012)

Alrighty! So my new horse Cleave is an American Warmblood. He was bought from the slaughter house in Delaware by his former owner, and now we have him. He has a brand, but no papers, no known sire or dam that the former owner can think of, and she didnt bother to ask where he came from when she bought him off the chopping block. He has amazing form and extreme potential that my trainer and i both know could not have happened on accident. There had to be some sort of special sire or dam. But since there are no papers, we dont know who. But his brand is a tell tale sign SOMEONE in the past knew he would be something, right?? I know a brand is to mark the breed of said Warmblood, but not all of them have it... I guess all this rambling is to ask the final question... Is there any possible way to trace him back?? Hes 10 right now, and little to no training other than what we have put on him and he still jumps better than some grand prix horses i have seen. It cant be an accident... It just cant be. Is there ANY way to find out who Cleave's sire and dam are??? He hasnt been registered either from what the former owner told us. (though she knew next to nothing about horses so he may very well be) So we registered him in the USEF. Help! I just want to know if this slaughter house baby is an accident or not.. And if the brand can help...


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## ThoroughbredJumper (Oct 30, 2012)

Here is Cleave jumping 3'11" a week after getting off the trailer from Delaware. No former "real" training to help him. That is the max we pushed him and you can see, its not really pushing him.. haha I just refuse to think this is all an accident, he must have good breeding somewhere... But where, i have no idea... (we have not jumped him this high since and are working with smaller jumps to get his ride and technique before and after the jumps better as well as his muscle to come in.)


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

A pic of his brand might be helpful.


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## ThoroughbredJumper (Oct 30, 2012)

Ill get a close up tomorrow. I dont have one where you can see it clear enough.


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## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

The other complicated part to your story is a brand could also just be a farm he came from. I wonder if there is a directory in the states, or someone you can contact who can look up in the database what that branding might be? if that could take you back to the breeder then you can have answers.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

It's going to depend on what kind of brand he has. Is it an American Warmblood Society brand or a breed brand or a farm brand or just an individual owner brand? That's why I was asking for a pic, that might start narrowing things down.


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## jumanji321 (Dec 1, 2010)

A brand doesn't always mean warmblood. My horse was hotbranded and she is a quarter horse. The brand is just her breeder's brand.


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## WyndellaRose (Nov 7, 2011)

I'm from DE and currently still live here. To the best of my knowledge...the only warmbloods bred around here are TB's and Standardbreds for the track as there are two local racetracks here in the state. The horse folk around here do not typically breed for jumpers and such although there may be a few that I am unaware of. 

In southern PA I know there are a few farms at least that do cross country, show jumping, and more so maybe he is from there and just ended up dumped down here at an auction. Good luck finding out more. 

If you email me a picture of his brand and a few good full body shots from each side I can try to ask some local horse friends around me if they recognize it. If this interests you, please PM me for my e-mail address.


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

All I can say is even if he was an accident, he just might be one of the best slaughter house finds you'll ever get.


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## dressagebelle (May 13, 2009)

If he's say in imported Hanoverian, from what I understand of the imported Hanoverian we had at my old barn, the brand tells you what year he was born. I was also told that it tells you what pasture he came from, but I would assume that there are more than one breeder so I'm a little skeptical about that. Maybe she meant it would tell you what breeder bred him. Anyways, not sure if other breeds that were imported have the same thing, but if he's imported, maybe you can find out a bit more info. Agree though that a picture of the brand is needed.


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## ThoroughbredJumper (Oct 30, 2012)

Here yall are, his brand. We looked it up to see if it was the correct brand, and asked our vet. Tell me what yall make of it though!


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## ThoroughbredJumper (Oct 30, 2012)

Sorry!! didnt know the picture would load sideways... haha the right side of the picture is actually the bottom.


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## jumanji321 (Dec 1, 2010)

Definitely looks like the American Warmblood brand:


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## EmilyJoy (Dec 30, 2011)

subbing...


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## JulieG (Jun 25, 2013)

Is there any way to contact the slaughterhouse she got him from?

I'm thinking they have to keep some kind of a record of who brings in horses.

What a mystery! Can't wait to see how this one ends.


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## Skunkworks (Oct 22, 2012)

Don't American Warmbloods have to be proven somehow to get branded? Surely somebody would know where this fella came from.


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## ThoroughbredJumper (Oct 30, 2012)

Nobody we contacted knew anything about him, and I'm glad I was right about him being an American Warmblood... or id feel really stupid... hahaha Its just such a mystery! You dont brand horses like that for nothing right? Surely his breeder wouldnt have shipped him off to slaughter after branding him... So there must be another secret 2nd owner that isnt in the details, before his last one, that shipped him to slaughter.... This is turning up a lot more questions than answers.


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## ThoroughbredJumper (Oct 30, 2012)

American Warmblood Society

Why would someone go through all this if they didnt see something special about him... There HAS to be a secret second owner...


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## JulieG (Jun 25, 2013)

I checked out the website and it looks like you have to have someone come out and inspect the horse before you can put an american warmblood brand on them.

From the American Warmblood Society page:

"Sport horses/Ponies must qualify to be branded with a minimum - 67% In-hand, approved Inspections or outstanding performance. Performance horse/ponies with a minimum dressage score of 63% at 1st level, test 4 (or equivalent in other recognized sports) also qualify to be branded."

Not to say someone just went and did it anyways, but it seems like quite a ways to go for a horse you're going to send to slaughter!


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## ThoroughbredJumper (Oct 30, 2012)

I agree! And that is where im just stumped!!! And if there IS an owner after his breeder but before his old one that sent him, WHY would you buy a horse like that, then just ship it off to death?


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## cakemom (Jul 4, 2010)

Have you had him scanned for a chip and seen who his most recent coggins was registered to?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ThoroughbredJumper (Oct 30, 2012)

He is not chipped, and his "coggins" (if you could call them that) were basically on notebook paper, and he was registered "NA".. oddly enough.. but... a vet did sign it.. so who are we to judge. :/ We got them re-done last week. His first recorded registry since the slaughter house is by us. Past then we dont know if he had another owner, and we dont know his breeder.


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## WyndellaRose (Nov 7, 2011)

Maybe you could research some farms dealing in Warmbloods in the Tri-state (DE/PA/MD area and see if anyone recognizes him. Send some detailed photos of any markings he has, full body shots, and his brand. Perhaps someone will recognize him. If he was tested and scored before being branded, there has to be a paper trail somewhere.


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## JulieG (Jun 25, 2013)

It's going a little far but maybe you could contact the AWS and see if they have certain people they send out for inspections in certain areas. 

Maybe if one person does all the inspections in Delaware they'll remember him or have some idea of who might have bred him?


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## cakemom (Jul 4, 2010)

And I hate to say this, but it just comes to my mind that e wound up there out of someone's ill will. I would check to make sure he doesn't match any stolen descriptions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jumanji321 (Dec 1, 2010)

I agree about checking for stolen horses. He also might have ended up at slaughter because someone fell on REALLY hard times and couldn't find anywhere else for him.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

ThoroughbredJumper said:


> Here is Cleave jumping 3'11" a week after getting off the trailer from Delaware. No former "real" training to help him. That is the max we pushed him and you can see, its not really pushing him.. haha I just refuse to think this is all an accident, he must have good breeding somewhere... But where, i have no idea... (we have not jumped him this high since and are working with smaller jumps to get his ride and technique before and after the jumps better as well as his muscle to come in.)


Gotta say, those are the tallest standards ever if that's 3'11" - making those standards about 8' tall.. :wink:

Anyways.. Horses registered with the American Warmblood Society can be a mish-mash of just about any breed. They truly take the "thoroughbred mixed with a draft" or "draft crosses = warmblood" to heart:
Warmbloods | Sport Horses | Dressage Horses
Perhaps you can contact the AWS, send them a photo of your horse along with a description of him (i.e. age) and they may be able to track down more information.


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## jumanji321 (Dec 1, 2010)

JustDressageIt said:


> *Gotta say, those are the tallest standards ever if that's 3'11" - making those standards about 8' tall*.. :wink:
> 
> Anyways.. Horses registered with the American Warmblood Society can be a mish-mash of just about any breed. They truly take the "thoroughbred mixed with a draft" or "draft crosses = warmblood" to heart:
> Warmbloods | Sport Horses | Dressage Horses
> Perhaps you can contact the AWS, send them a photo of your horse along with a description of him (i.e. age) and they may be able to track down more information.


I see you noticed that too.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

I was thinking stolen as well.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nokotaheaven (Apr 11, 2012)

What I would do is contact the association asking about him and send some pictures. And if he matches any horses ask who his last known owner is, and then if u can, contact that person


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## Little Jane (Mar 7, 2013)

Subbing. What an interesting mystery!


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## Nokotaheaven (Apr 11, 2012)

^^ Agreed!!!


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## Nokotaheaven (Apr 11, 2012)

OH! You might also be able to get him DNA tested and send the results to AWS to see if there's any matches. Maybe :/


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

If the breed has to be inspected I would call the brand inspector. They may have a record. I would look for other identifying brands/tattoos. I think it would be odd to have a registry and inspection required without also requiring a permanent identification number. 

Its also possible that something happened to his original owner ie accidental death or injury that resulted in harsh feelings toward said horse, thus they sold the horse. I know someone who boards a horse that was a lovely talented hunter, his rider was jumping sans helmet and fell off. The rider died, and the family has neither the heart to sell the horse or the desire to ride it. Thus they pay a set amount each month and board it a state away.


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## WyndellaRose (Nov 7, 2011)

Does he have a lip tatoo by chance?


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## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

Subbing, very interesting mystery, and I hope you can get to the bottom of it!


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## morganarab94 (May 16, 2013)

Subbing. Totally strange that a horse like that would end up in a slaughter house!


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## MiniMom24 (Mar 13, 2013)

I don't know if this helps. Someone on facebook posted this. I know it isn't every Brand out there but maybe it helps others with questions on their brands.

http://www.mdac.state.ms.us/departments/agricultural_theft_bureau/pdf/BrandBook2012.pdf


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

morganarab94 said:


> Subbing. Totally strange that a horse like that would end up in a slaughter house!


Just goes to show that even well bred horses end up in the kill pen. Yet another reason why mediocre horses should not be bred.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ThoroughbredJumper (Oct 30, 2012)

I did contact the AWS with pictures and such, they said he does not match any reports of "ill will", but that i could get him DNA tested. And yes, those standards do reach 8 foot. Only that pair though. They use that set usually to free jump their grand prix horses and 2 of the stallions. It was the only oxer set that was out because almost all the horses are currently at a show in Colorado. We made due with what we could. But i appreciate the doubting ey?


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## ThoroughbredJumper (Oct 30, 2012)

And i do appreciate all of yall that are genuinely trying to help. I just want to know who my new baby's mommie and daddy are. And if he had more owners that i dont know about. If that is the case, kudos to them for being so freakin crafty...


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## ThoroughbredJumper (Oct 30, 2012)

WyndellaRose said:


> Does he have a lip tatoo by chance?


Nope, no tattoo. :/ Just slobbery pink gums. hahaha


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

I've only seen standards that high in one other barn - and you can tell they're gigantic. They look proportionally like regular standards, sorry. The horse and rider must be massive. 
I would suggest slowing down with this horse. It scares me that you're jumping him at all admitting he doesn't have much training. What's the hurry? Free jump if you want to see form. It's very obvious he's not sure over this fence (over jumping, odd spot, etc.) 
Cute horse, slow him down.
DNA test will be conclusive.


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## ThoroughbredJumper (Oct 30, 2012)

Well he is already 10, the vet says hes perfectly safe to jump, he has been "trained" up to 18 inches prior. He has no issues when we do jump, and we only jump as high as 2'6"-2'9" at max anyways right now to work on his technique. We have already seen him free jump on his sale video, and he needs as much muscle and experience as we can get on him before i leave for college in a year. We are on a time crunch but taking him as slow as he needs. And at lower heights/flat work he becomes bored and gets lazy. He doesnt enjoy it. I appreciate your concern, and i understand your reasoning, but i do believe my trainer and i know what we are doing.  This thread is not supposed to be about his training anyhow. Im only trying to figure out his breeding! hahaha if you want to talk training then i will start a training thread or you may pm me. But this is not the place


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## ThoroughbredJumper (Oct 30, 2012)

And he over jumps EVERYTHING, its just how he jumps. Even the tiny stuff, he jumps about a foot over or more. He doesnt like jumping small, so he imagines they are big. hahaha


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

lots of nice horses end up at auction and slaughter. Go to the state Brand book and look for brands , be sure note if you find a brand that matches that it is on the same area, left hind lh
right hind , right fore etc. I am not sure what the first symbol is, but the second would be a lazy A .


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## ThoroughbredJumper (Oct 30, 2012)

We have already solved his brand is an American Warmblood brand, i sent in pictures to the AWS. They confirmed it, and his conformation, to be a classic AW. So that part is SOLVED!  (celebrate) NOW! Who was his breeder... and who is his sire and dam... harder to answer


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## cakemom (Jul 4, 2010)

Wait, he was at the slaughter house and had a sale video?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ThoroughbredJumper (Oct 30, 2012)

His previous owner who got him from the slaughter house made a sale video to send to a girl here in Texas to email out to people who were looking for horses that she knew of, and I was one of the people she knew who needed a horse. So she sent me the sale video from her friend in Delaware who shipped Cleave down here to be test ridden by anyone who replied to the sale video. I was the first to reply, first to try, and only to buy. Hahahaha. There are no records i know of from before her. :/ And that is where the mystery lies!


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## doubleopi (Dec 27, 2011)

ThoroughbredJumper said:


> WHY would you buy a horse like that, then just ship it off to death?


My sister in law sold her Hanoverian gelding to a girl who was supposedly experienced. Later, the trainer informed SIL that the girl was going to euthanize him (he's like 6 or 7 I think) because he was "dangerous." SIL worked her butt off to get him back and he got light on the front end a couple times the first time she rode him again. She dealt with it and he's great. Sigh, guess the girl was less experienced and more spoiled than originally thought. He's one that has breeding that (I've heard) people were pushing her to keep him as a stallion prospect. Definitely a good looking boy! But almost euthanized because some girl couldn't admit that SHE was the problem and was going to blame him.:think: It happens.


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## ThoroughbredJumper (Oct 30, 2012)

doubleopi said:


> My sister in law sold her Hanoverian gelding to a girl who was supposedly experienced. Later, the trainer informed SIL that the girl was going to euthanize him (he's like 6 or 7 I think) because he was "dangerous." SIL worked her butt off to get him back and he got light on the front end a couple times the first time she rode him again. She dealt with it and he's great. Sigh, guess the girl was less experienced and more spoiled than originally thought. He's one that has breeding that (I've heard) people were pushing her to keep him as a stallion prospect. Definitely a good looking boy! But almost euthanized because some girl couldn't admit that SHE was the problem and was going to blame him.:think: It happens.


Wow im so sorry.. Glad it all worked out though! <3 I just hate to see good horses in these situations.  makes me sad. Great heart warmer of a story though  Thanks for sharing


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## WyndellaRose (Nov 7, 2011)

Hmmm....what is the name of the person from DE who made the video and sold him to you? You can PM me if you want. I have some local contacts who may be able to help.


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## ThoroughbredJumper (Oct 30, 2012)

Ill ask her if its okay to give you her name. I hate sending out information before a person okays it.  it just makes me feel manipulative...


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## WyndellaRose (Nov 7, 2011)

Oh I totally agree! Just tell her you are trying to find out more about your horse and you have another local person from DE trying to help. She'll most likely have no clue who I am if you gave her my name since I've never owned a horse but I still keep friends in the industry who I can contact.


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## ThoroughbredJumper (Oct 30, 2012)

Alright! Thanks! Ill ask her.  Glad you understand why im hesitant though. I just would hate to step on anyone's toes over something like this. Haha
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nokotaheaven (Apr 11, 2012)

Could we maybe see some better pics of him? I'd just like to see some better pics of his markings because I'm going to do a google search and would like to see if any photos match


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## ThoroughbredJumper (Oct 30, 2012)

Check out my page. I have an album or yu can look at my barn. Not many, i know. But he has only one marking. A VERY noticable blaze.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nokotaheaven (Apr 11, 2012)

okay, thank you


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## JulieG (Jun 25, 2013)

Haha - I did a reverse google image search on Cleave and a picture of Will Smith came up.


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## ThoroughbredJumper (Oct 30, 2012)

^^^ LOL that explains his temperment XD but! I got new info on the Cleave case! Its getting even more confusing. Hahaa turns out she didnt buy him in Delaware, his old owner says she bought him off the slaughter in FLORIDA while on vacation, her friend told her of some slaughter bound horses for sale, thats where she got him. And then had him shipped to Delaware. So he isnt from the North... Then where is he from! Hahaha


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## Nokotaheaven (Apr 11, 2012)

Thought maybe this site might help some since there's over 2,000 warmbloods for sale on it
Warmblood Sales Home Page


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## ThoroughbredJumper (Oct 30, 2012)

Ive already seen every single warmblood on there. Hahahaha thats where i went first to look for horses. Ive scanned those pages time and time again.


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## Nokotaheaven (Apr 11, 2012)

Do u possibly have any other name that is tied into the horse? I can't find anything on him. And I also got thinking, there are a number of big warmblood shows down in Florida. I know of a farm up here in ontario that shows down in Florida... So ur horse really could have come from anywhere


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## ThoroughbredJumper (Oct 30, 2012)

Yeah i know. Ive almost given up! Seems my last hope is if i can get a DNA test on him... And no, thats his only known name. She said that the slaughter house owner told her that he came with that name and it was ironic because... Ya know... Meat cleaver...  so sad
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nokotaheaven (Apr 11, 2012)

Yeah... :/

Hey, do you know which slaughter house it was? If there's a name for it maybe u could trace him through the name somehow. Like, see which auction houses are nearest to it


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## ThoroughbredJumper (Oct 30, 2012)

No i dont, and she cant remember the name. :/ But! I sent more pictures and a copy of his current coggins to the AWS, and he does not match any stolen or missing descriptions, so we are absolutely sure everything happened by person. So that rules that out, yay!


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## smaile (Sep 21, 2010)

Over here if you sell your horse to slaughterhouse, you must give horse`s passport to them as well, so they could make a record in horse database that the horse has deceased. Could it be, that the horse you own in AWS records is long dead and because of that nobody can recognize him there.?
I guess that the best chance for you is to contact the slaughterhouse - they have to have some document of your horse. Or at least a name of previous owner. USA is too big for you to find his breeder just by his picture...


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

smaile said:


> Over here if you sell your horse to slaughterhouse, you must give horse`s passport to them as well, so they could make a record in horse database that the horse has deceased. Could it be, that the horse you own in AWS records is long dead and because of that nobody can recognize him there.?
> I guess that the best chance for you is to contact the slaughterhouse - they have to have some document of your horse. Or at least a name of previous owner. USA is too big for you to find his breeder just by his picture...


In the US horses aren't passported; if the horse isn't registered with a breed association there is no paper trail on them, and even if they are registered, the paper trail can easily be lost if one owner doesn't agree to include it in the sale. Since breed registries are private organizations, there's no requirement to keep them up to date with current owner information or even notify them if the horse dies. The most likely scenario is that AWS has him in their files with some person from years ago listed as his owner still.

ETA- Sounds like the DNA test is the only real way to identify him. I'm impressed that AWS will do a DNA match- kudos to them!


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## smaile (Sep 21, 2010)

verona1016 said:


> In the US horses aren't passported; if the horse isn't registered with a breed association there is no paper trail on them, and even if they are registered, the paper trail can easily be lost if one owner doesn't agree to include it in the sale. Since breed registries are private organizations, there's no requirement to keep them up to date with current owner information or even notify them if the horse dies. The most likely scenario is that AWS has him in their files with some person from years ago listed as his owner still.
> 
> ETA- Sounds like the DNA test is the only real way to identify him. I'm impressed that AWS will do a DNA match- kudos to them!


That`s a shame. But still, shouldn`t they have that people`s, who gave this horse to slaughterhouse, name, phone number etc in their records.? 
It just seems a bit unbelievable, that there is a possibility to make DNA testing - does breed associations keep DNA examples on every horse there.? As far as I know DNA testing only works if you have something to compere the sample with.


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## Cynical25 (Mar 7, 2013)

If I were in your shoes, I'd quit investigating. I'd be worried I'd learn my horse was stolen, and he would get sent back to the original owner of record. 

Good luck, chickadee.


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## BornToRun (Sep 18, 2011)

ThoroughbredJumper said:


> So he isnt from the North... Then where is he from! Hahaha


This puts your search in Florida, though, could be a better lead than Delaware


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## BornToRun (Sep 18, 2011)

smaile said:


> That`s a shame. But still, shouldn`t they have that people`s, who gave this horse to slaughterhouse, name, phone number etc in their records.?


Most people who send their horses for meat are going to be quiet about it. Cancel the registration, have the horse declared dead ... But, their name will still be on the registration. However, if they've canceled it prior to shipping the horse off, that information is a little harder to get from the registration. Even if you do get their personal information, they're still a person, and don't have to talk to you ... or reinstate registration ... I learned that recently.


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

I like to know how long the previous owner had him. If she's had him less than a few years, she didn't get him from a slaughterhouse. A kill pen, maybe. But since there are no equine slaughterhouses in the US currently operating, there is no way she actually got him from a slaughterhouse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nokotaheaven (Apr 11, 2012)

Unless she bought him from someone or somewhere where they were going to ship him to a slaughterhouse... There are some open up here in Canada, I know of one in Quebec. I watched a video where a trucker drove them 36hrs to the boarder


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

I'm pretty sure he's not from Canada, in fact I believe he may be from Florida. No slaughterhouses there. We only have feed lots and kill pens at auctions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LouieThePalomino (Dec 15, 2012)

If she remembers which area of Florida she got him from I could ask around for you. I think this is very interesting and I hope you find your solution!

But while I was reading this thread I kept wondering that what if he didnt even come from a slaughterhouse at all? That story couldve been made up if he was stolen ect.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

I'd think it would be hard to find the records even if you knew what auction house he came from (I'm assuming that's what was meant- an auction house where meat buyers are known to frequent, with the horses then being shipped to Mexico or Canada for slaughter) If you had the auction paperwork, it would tell you what date, what lot number, etc. So many horses go through these auction houses, you're never going to be able to find any information just from his description.

With DNA I'm guessing they keep the genetic sequence from the lab on file with the horse's registration. Since you're looking for an exact match (as opposed to a possible sire or dam) it should be possible.


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## ThoroughbredJumper (Oct 30, 2012)

kassierae said:


> I'm pretty sure he's not from Canada, in fact I believe he may be from Florida. No slaughterhouses there. We only have feed lots and kill pens at auctions.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Im pretty sure you are right about the kill pen, she says slaughter house, but then again she knows NOTHING about horses so shes probably just confused or going with the "better known" name. Im thinking hes from Florida too. It would make sense. Also, he is NOT in fact stolen, so for all you who think that, that option is gone, it has been gone since i spoke to the AWS. haha Also, im not giving up. Hes an orphan child, and im his surrogate mother, i will find his true parents! *dramatic music* :happydance:


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## ThoroughbredJumper (Oct 30, 2012)

Okay, never mind. NOW im almost ready to give up... The woman i bought Cleave from says the man who was running the slaughter pen that she bought Cleave from did not know his lineage either, and that her entire year and a half of owning him she never found out his sire or dam either and had been trying to trace him the whole time. THOUGH! I did find out that before her, and the kill pen man, Cleave had 2 owners (who i am assuming 1 is the breeder) so that makes my theory of a second real owner a possibility. But why would that second person send him there... GAH!!!!! Too many questions spawning MORE questions!!!! I think im just gonna wait till the AWS comes to test Cleave.. *sigh*


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Just consider him a blessing and that he was meant to find his way to you. :smile:

I understand your wanting to find out about his past. I would too. But even if you don't, that doesn't change the fact that you lucked onto a really nice horse. It must have been meant to be! 

For instance, I can't understand how my mare went through like 5 plus owners in her life. She is an awesome horse. It's like people just bred her to get a foal or two out of her and passed her on. She is a wonderful horse in her own right. I can't understand why know one kept her. I've had her for 3 plus years and she is just a delight to own and ride. Oh well, their loss is my gain. :lol:

I guess what I am trying to say is, it doesn't necessarily mean your horse has skeletons in his closet. Even good horses get passed around and end up in bad places.


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## ThoroughbredJumper (Oct 30, 2012)

trailhorserider said:


> Just consider him a blessing and that he was meant to find his way to you. :smile:
> 
> I understand your wanting to find out about his past. I would too. But even if you don't, that doesn't change the fact that you lucked onto a really nice horse. It must have been meant to be!
> 
> ...


You are so right. And hey! He can start his own "legacy" now! We dont need to know if he had good breeding to be happy with him. Hes my baby now! And he is a blessing beyond measure! Thank you for the kind words and encouragement  and im glad you have a lucky little mare of your own 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ThoroughbredJumper (Oct 30, 2012)

In case anyone wanted an update, here it is. Cleave has gained 120lbs since we got him nearly 2 months ago. We competed in HIS FIRST EVER show in Oklahoma City, the Oklahoma GO Show ("A" rated show)! He never refused, never shied, never expressed any poor behavior as far as on the ground, and in the ring conduct goes. Nothing could phase him except if i left, then he got nervous. hahaha But we entered .85-.95m classes over the week, had a grand total of 3 rails (all my fault obviously) and ended up PLACING in the .95m Modified Ch/Ad class, taking 5th place in one of the rounds! He has never shown before in his life. We expected it to be more of us coaching him along, but he walked in there like showing was his entire life. hahaha definitely made an impression around the GO Show that week, even if we weren't the best out there, it seems people know he's special. Since coming home we have brought him along, teaching him how to take in and extend his strides in lines, straightness, bending, off the haunches jumping, basic dressage work, fitness lunging, ground tricks such as bowing, combination jumps, liverpools, roll tops, gymnastics, and full fledged course correctness. He learns so fast, i feel blessed to have such an athletic and brilliant horse under me. Yes hes still very very green but hes trying his hardest and has his foundations down. So we decided to test him a bit. During one of my lessons a week ago we were jumping 3'6", then my trainer bumped the roll top oxer up to 3'9", then 3'11", then made it 3'0" wide, then while i wasnt looking she made it a WHOPPING 4'0" OXER WITH 3'3" SPREAD!!!!! I cantered down to it, and about half a stride out realized it was bigger and wider, gripped him with my legs from a good 4ft out, and he FLEW over that oxer without a second thought in his mind and was PERFECTLY controllable on the back side, minus a trip coming down from the canter to the trot... he tends to do that XD haha but i mean... I have never jumped an oxer of that size on any horse, and he made it seem like he had been doing it his whole life! We ended the lesson after that and he was spoiled rotten as usual. Hahahaha! In our time together I have also found that I am his security blanket.... If i leave, even for 5min to go clean my tack after a ride, and he cant see me, he will shimmy in the cross ties, pee, or simply freeze and stare in whichever direction i went, even if there are other people or horses around his eyes are always locked on the last place i was. Poor baby, if a horse could ever show they were grateful, he has in spades. No matter what i am doing he is always trying to lick me in any place he can, or he is always trying to play with me if we are in the pasture together, he even tries to defend me from dogs on the trails. Hahaha he is such a blessing! For his show name, I chose "Call Me Clever" because honestly thats what he is.  Im a blessed girl!!! I tried to post pics but it said they are too big! Ill try and figure it out and show yall!


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

Sounds like you've got a good one <3 Congrats!


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## ThoroughbredJumper (Oct 30, 2012)

Thank you!!


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## ThoroughbredJumper (Oct 30, 2012)

Here are pictures of his weight progress as of last week! He has gained 120lbs since we bought him 2 months ago!


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## ThoroughbredJumper (Oct 30, 2012)

Pictures of Cleave and I at our first show, and his FIRST EVER show, a few weeks back! Oklahoma GO Show (AA jumper show)! 5th in Modified Ch/Ad jumpers (Cleave's first ribbon!)  moving up to Low Ch/Ad this next coming show (A jumper show)! Never refused, never spooked at a jump, sure a little "drunk" as far as lines went, but got all the numbers swimmingly! He acted like he had done this his whole life.


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## ThoroughbredJumper (Oct 30, 2012)

Our first ever 4'0" oxer! (yes i know my leg position is bad in this photo. please do not comment on it. haha) Did not even come close to touching it!


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

Youve got one heck of a horse! 

I think he has beautiful form. (Yet im not sure how much that matters considering im a barrel racer. LoL.)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ThoroughbredJumper (Oct 30, 2012)

Trust me! Form matters! Hahahha its just so hard to imagine that he was on a slaughter trailer to Canada! ;( Thank you! He is really a gem


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## Gallop On (May 1, 2011)

You found a diamond in the rough! Hes beautiful. His form is amazing, and he looks so at ease with it. He looks wonderful now thats hes gained more weight too. So great that he got a second chance at life.


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## ThoroughbredJumper (Oct 30, 2012)

If a horse could act appreciative, he displays that. I think he knows where he came from and where he is now.  thank you for your kind words!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

A lot of the dealers here in CT buy from Florida horse sales and its possible you might be able to trace him back to a seller by going through their past catalogues which might be online.
A lot of people are getting into hard times right now and being forced to sell horses for whatever they can get just to remove the costs of keeping it - its not just low end workers that are losing jobs. Its quite possible that your horse ended up in a sale for this reason and if there was no interest in him at the sale and they couldn't afford to not sell its likely the meat buyer was the only or highest bidder.
Nice to see that he's in a good home.
Florida Horse Sales


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## lilbit (Aug 24, 2013)

"subbing"


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## DriftingShadow (Jun 4, 2012)

MiniMom24 said:


> I don't know if this helps. Someone on facebook posted this. I know it isn't every Brand out there but maybe it helps others with questions on their brands.
> 
> http://www.mdac.state.ms.us/departments/agricultural_theft_bureau/pdf/BrandBook2012.pdf


Oh my god!
I was on this thread reading and totally interested, and I followed that link and found Drifrer's brand :shock:
How in the world did you happen to have a link for registered Mississippi brands when you are from Cananda?
*its a small world after all*

I actually was eventually able to already track down his brand but it took a lot of sleuthing and asking of questions. And here you had posted a link with all of my answers! haha

But anyways, OP, definitely look farther into this. I bought Drifter from an auction as "grade" and it just kept nagging at me that a grade horse was branded and was sold as having no notable history .It didnt make any sense to me and i followed my gut and researched it. 

when I tracked down his breeders (the ones who had branded him with the LEE on his left hip) I discovered he had been essentially stolen from them in a deal gone bad. He had been missing for a year and a half by that point and they had given up hope of finding him. I emailed the woman and said I had acquired a horse with her family's brand and was curious about what she could tell me.

She emailed back almost immediately and told me to call her. She said she hadnt even needed to open up the pictures of him I had attached in the email. She read my description of him and she knew who it was. He had a GREAT backstory, and I still remain close friends with her and her family. It helped me to appreciate Drifter a little more, especially since they were kind enough to allow me to keep him when they had every right to have him back.

So dont give up OP and keep investigating. It will be worth it when you find answers


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## Reckyroo (Feb 5, 2013)

What a lovely story and what a lucky lucky horse. It's terrible to think where he was heading and where so many other not so lucky horses end up.
Keep up the updates xx


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## ThoroughbredJumper (Oct 30, 2012)

I have searched the Florida data base that you suggested, and none of them match up! Darn it! I was hoping id find something. Thank you though! Im just gonna enjoy him for the horse he IS and try to help him forget who he WAS.  Living in the now, looking to the future!! I had the nail bed of my left big toe removed the other day so i have not been able to ride for the past 2 days. However! I have been lunging him over small jumps to teach him to naturally back himself off. He is learning very well, and with my trainer the other day was fabulous at balancing himself at the base of the jump! So we are making great progress!!  Next show in just under 3 weeks!!!! (Oct 4-6)


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## caleybooth (Mar 11, 2011)

This story kinda reminds me of the movie Sylvester. He's beautiful, OP, and he's very lucky!


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## GottaQH (Jul 15, 2013)

CLaPorte432 said:


> Youve got one heck of a horse!
> 
> I think he has beautiful form. (Yet im not sure how much that matters considering im a barrel racer. LoL.)
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That horse has one heck of an owner!


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## ThoroughbredJumper (Oct 30, 2012)

Thank you GottaQH and caleybooth!! Hes my pride and joy


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## MiniMom24 (Mar 13, 2013)

haha. I really have no idea. I actually did a search on brands at one point and I have a whole folder full of booked marked sites that post brands now. My girlfriend had a horse who had a brand that we couldn't identify, so I started searching the US brands just in case since we couldn't find anything in Canada. We never did find the brand for him. He's now passed away at an old age so we've stopped looking. I'm glad you had a happy story. 




DriftingShadow said:


> Oh my god!
> I was on this thread reading and totally interested, and I followed that link and found Drifrer's brand :shock:
> How in the world did you happen to have a link for registered Mississippi brands when you are from Cananda?
> *its a small world after all*
> ...


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## JulieG (Jun 25, 2013)

Man, he just sails over those jumps!

Glad to hear you are both doing well.


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## ThoroughbredJumper (Oct 30, 2012)

Thank you! We have our second horse show this weekend! (friday-sunday) And we are doing the Low Child/Adult (1.00m-1.05m) and my trainer may be entering him in 1.10m classes if he is confident and doing well!!! SO EXCITED!  His ride-ability has come sooo far, hes super controlled now, and his extensions and collections to the jumps and on the flat are amazing now. Hes just come SO far, hes a blessing in my life  i love Cleave so much


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## ThoroughbredJumper (Oct 30, 2012)

Update! I have now owned Cleave for 6 months. He has gained 375lbs and is bulking up beautifully. (ill post pics in a bit) He has recovered fully from his slaughter trailer days physically, but still has trouble trusting men. (specifically if they get close to me he gets upset or if any male is standing between us. lol) He has truly shown his colors and is a wonderful laid back jumper. Very very quick learner and amazing athlete. I am a truly lucky girl to get to be a part of his life. I still have found no traces of his lineage, but am saving up to get him an official DNA test from the AWF. He is a healthy, big, happy go lucky boy, and he loovveeessss his mommie. hahaha His favorite thing in the world is to lick me and "cuddle" (wrap his neck around me and hug me while licking my arm or cheek). I have taught him simple ground tricks (Bow, Stay, Here, Over There, Turn Around) and he loves doing them. His gait has grown amazing elasticity as he has bulked up his muscles and is a very powerful boy. Very gentle in hand and rides in a plain D-ring normally, at shows for more breaks we use a D-ring with a slow twist. He also likes to play with kittens we discovered. Lol! He is showing us what he can really do recently, we jumped him 4'3" and he didnt show any signs of strain. He can tell my twin and i apart, which i find funny because most people i know cannot. His favorite spot to be scratched is at the base of his ears or inside them. At one of my recent lessons we were working on combinations (one jump set right after the other). And we were doing a triple combination (three jumps set after another), the first was a 3'6" vertical then there was one stride, the next was a 3'11" oxer set 3'0" wide followed by 3 strides, then last jump was a 4'0" oxer set 3'3" wide... I approached the line... Cleave jumped the first... Then on touch down he tripped and fell to his knees in the ONE STRIDE between the 3'6" and 3'11" jump. All i saw was a white pole infront of my face, i let go of the reins thinking "oh gosh this is it...".... Then suddenly we were in the air again.... I had no reins, Cleaves legs were coated in dirt, there were skid marks behind us, yet SOMEHOW this amazing horse had FALLEN in a ONE STRIDE then picked himself up and CLEARED the 3'11" oxer!!!!! I had no reins still and was in shock so i just grabbed his mane on touch down and squeezed for my life with my legs, he cantered up with total composure and leapt easily over the 4'0" oxer..... Now now, i know i should have pulled him out of the line, but i couldnt, because i didnt have any reins. My gosh i wish i had it on video!! My trainer, twin, and best friend were all there to see it and we still dont know how he did it. Lol. So in conclusion, Cleave is the best horse i could ever hope for, and he will be my lifes companion as long as he lives.  We have a horse show next week and he will be competing in his first ever High Adult classes with me. (1.10-1.15m) We dont anticipate any problems with height (obviously), but he gets distracted easy so we will see. Lol  Theres an update!


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## ThoroughbredJumper (Oct 30, 2012)

Before pic, 2 now pics!


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

Wow, what a great looking fella. You sure have done a good job with him. Is it just the lighting, or has his colour darkened? He looks lovely.


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## ThoroughbredJumper (Oct 30, 2012)

His color has greatly darkened. We consider him a seal brown more than a bay now. We think that as he got over his skin conditions his coat was able to grow its real color back.


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## SullysRider (Feb 11, 2012)

He is brown, and kinda random, but he has a very long neck lol. He's long period! He definitely looks to be strongly Thoroughbred influenced, maybe even full TB (only the one's who have raced have tattoos, so it's possible to have a full TB without the tattoo, like mine)


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## ThoroughbredJumper (Oct 30, 2012)

He is certainly not full TB. Hooves are massive, wide jaw, deep eyes, broader shoulders, and nowhere near the gait forms. Lol i owned 2 full TBs previously
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

Just read this whole thing, how interesting. That blaze is so unique, I would think someone with a lot of time to scour photos, sales catalogues, etc. might have a small glimmer of hope in identifying him. Anyway, glad he found a good home with you and I am interesting in hearing if you end up DNA testing him.


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## SullysRider (Feb 11, 2012)

ThoroughbredJumper said:


> He is certainly not full TB. Hooves are massive, wide jaw, deep eyes, broader shoulders, and nowhere near the gait forms. Lol i owned 2 full TBs previously
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He looks just like my full TB, who has on more than several occasions been mistaken for a WB. No need to get all defensive. You don't have to have a WB to do well, just ask all the people with WB's who I've beat on a TB.


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## ThoroughbredJumper (Oct 30, 2012)

SullysRider said:


> He looks just like my full TB, who has on more than several occasions been mistaken for a WB. No need to get all defensive. You don't have to have a WB to do well, just ask all the people with WB's who I've beat on a TB.


Im not getting defensive. Im stating fact... Lol. Ive owned and been state champion on my past 2 Thoroughbreds. One in the puddle jumpers, one in the low children/adult jumpers.... My best friend has a TB... My barn has 9 TBs... I promise. Hes not a TB. Lol im perfectly aware you dont need a WB to win, ive kicked butt on my past 2. Im not saying WBs are better, im just saying Cleave is not a TB. Why is that hard to accept?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cacowgirl (Feb 19, 2011)

Your horse has a great story & he sure seems to know that you "saved" him! He looks magnificent & sure sounds smart & willing. You may never know his story, but the two of you can write new chapters. I think you found a great horse & I'm glad you found each other.


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## ThoroughbredJumper (Oct 30, 2012)

Cacowgirl said:


> Your horse has a great story & he sure seems to know that you "saved" him! He looks magnificent & sure sounds smart & willing. You may never know his story, but the two of you can write new chapters. I think you found a great horse & I'm glad you found each other.


Thank you  he is truly an angel.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SullysRider (Feb 11, 2012)

ThoroughbredJumper said:


> Im not getting defensive. Im stating fact... Lol. Ive owned and been state champion on my past 2 Thoroughbreds. One in the puddle jumpers, one in the low children/adult jumpers.... My best friend has a TB... My barn has 9 TBs... I promise. Hes not a TB. Lol im perfectly aware you dont need a WB to win, ive kicked butt on my past 2. Im not saying WBs are better, im just saying Cleave is not a TB. Why is that hard to accept?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Actually you're stating opinion, where are his papers showing his warmblood lineage? To me he looks like a TB that was approved into the AWS, you don't have to agree with me, just as I don't have to agree with you. You were asking about his lineage, I said he looks TB, no harm no foul.


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## ThoroughbredJumper (Oct 30, 2012)

He has a brand... A straight TB cant get that brand... And ive had him looked over by a conformation specialist...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SullysRider (Feb 11, 2012)

ThoroughbredJumper said:


> He has a brand... A straight TB cant get that brand... And ive had him looked over by a conformation specialist...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Actually with the AWS yes they in fact can. And that doesn't mean anything, you can't tell what breed a horse is by it's conformation, there is many different variations within breeds, and a horse could be mistaken for a different breed. If someone told they could 100% guarantee a horse is a certain breed you got taken. It is an opinion. Anyway, enjoy your horse. It doesn't matter what breed he is or that he doesn't look very WB, it's not a big deal. I know in the show world you "have" to have a WB, but you really don't. So don't stress what he is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

ThoroughbredJumper said:


> He is certainly not full TB. Hooves are massive, wide jaw, deep eyes, broader shoulders, and nowhere near the gait forms. Lol i owned 2 full TBs previously
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I had a TB gelding that everyone swore was a WB. When I told them that he was in fact a full TB, they were blown away. Your guy actually does remind me of Ronan, wider set and long.


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## ThoroughbredJumper (Oct 30, 2012)

Wow. Quite the full tb. Haha cutie 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ThoroughbredJumper (Oct 30, 2012)

My last horse. A full Thoroughbred- Romeo. Vs. American Warmblood (YES i understand the "breed" is made of mutts)- Cleave. They look nearly identical in color so they make a good comparison group. Lol


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## SullysRider (Feb 11, 2012)

I still see TB, and as far as TB's having small feet, my TB is a size 3 shoe... He reminds me of my TB and JDI's TB. There are thicker TB, if the first picture is your old TB, that horse is very narrow, but not all TBs are built that like. Some are wide and long. Hopefully you find out who he is with the DNA test, he could very well be a backyard WB that just looks like a TB, AWS isn't known for well bred horses.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

Whatever he is, he sure is stunning.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ThoroughbredJumper (Oct 30, 2012)

Thank you


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## ThoroughbredJumper (Oct 30, 2012)

Update! Cleave is down in Waco at the show with my trainer. She rode him yesterday in the .85m and .95m to be sure he wasnt spooky, he jumped around boldly but is spending a LOT of time in the air again (over jumping), but went clear. He is going strong but is nervous about the in gate and all the other horses, nothing bad, but he just doesnt seem "comfortable", no bad behaviors though. Several people have commented to her that they didnt even recognize him when they saw him because he looks so good now. And she rode him in the .95m and 1.00m today and he was fantastic again, but over jumping still. Not a bad thing! I like that he is being so careful! But hes slow as is across the ground, such a long stride and doesnt turn tight yet, lol, so id like if he didnt spend so much time in the air XD hahaha things are looking good and im going down to join her today at noon!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Nice that he's going well
Be careful not to push him too hard - over jumping is sometimes a sign that a horse is for some reason afraid of hitting the pole and when they reach a height that they don't feel able to clear without giving it that extra space they start refusing
You could try using some ground poles and low spreads to encourage him to stretch himself and push forwards as well as upwards


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## ThoroughbredJumper (Oct 30, 2012)

Its normal for him. When he feels nervous he converts it into overjump. Haha its his way of dealing with the situation. At home he jumps fine, and usually by friday at shows hes jumping fine again. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ThoroughbredJumper (Oct 30, 2012)

Sorry its taken so long! Update! Cleave and I competed in 8 classes from friday-sunday of the Waco show... We placed in all but 1 class! (i fell because i jumped up his neck). There were 19 competitors across the board in all 8 of our classes! He and i are NOT the fastest team (hes a lumbering tank, lol), but we can leave the rails up! And that worked to our advantage as everyone elses smaller faster horses felt fatigue from their owners running their tails off. In the 1.00-1.05m Low Ch/Ad classes we competed in (2), we placed 6th in the 1.00m, and 4th in the 1.05! In our 1.00m classes (3) we got blue ribbons! (if you are clean and under time you got a blue). In our FIRST EVER High Adult classes at 1.10m we were DQ in one round due to my fall, and 5th in the second 1.10m round!! Then in Cleave's first ever classic (1.05m) we placed 8th out of 19!!!! So so so proud of my baby!!! His 4th show EVER and ribboning in every round (i didnt fall in)!!! Lol!!! So excited for the next show! Pics to come!


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## ThoroughbredJumper (Oct 30, 2012)

This is of Cleave and I with our ribbon after the classic!


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## ThoroughbredJumper (Oct 30, 2012)

First one is in our 1.00m class, the next two are 1.10m classes  And a final pic of our ribbon collection from the 3 days! So blessed!!! And i know, his form is crap over the navy and green oxer. He felt it needed a bit of extra flair. hahaha no explanation!


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## roanypony (Apr 5, 2012)

Didn't have time to read the WHOLE thread but if you think he's from Florida you can always post a Craigslist ad with a pic asking if anyone know about him in the Florida farm and garden classifieds.


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## dop (Nov 7, 2009)

ThoroughbredJumper said:


> He is not chipped, and his "coggins" (if you could call them that) were basically on notebook paper, and he was registered "NA".. oddly enough.. but... *a vet did sign it.*. so who are we to judge. :/ We got them re-done last week. His first recorded registry since the slaughter house is by us. Past then we dont know if he had another owner, and we dont know his breeder.


If you're still on the hunt to solve the mystery, do you think there'd be any value in following up with the vet who signed off on his papers? Vets tend to be excellent with documentation...at least the ones I know. There could be additional information from this vet to be had and it may be worth a phone call. Just a thought...super interesting story! Gorgeous horse.


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## ThoroughbredJumper (Oct 30, 2012)

dop said:


> If you're still on the hunt to solve the mystery, do you think there'd be any value in following up with the vet who signed off on his papers? Vets tend to be excellent with documentation...at least the ones I know. There could be additional information from this vet to be had and it may be worth a phone call. Just a thought...super interesting story! Gorgeous horse.


That is an awesome idea!!!! Ill try and look him up!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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