# Correcting foals - timeline and methods



## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

The filly I've been playing with is now about 1 month old. I want to do right by her and not let her develop any "dangerous" habits, but so far I'm still in "very young foals should first learn to trust humans first before being corrected and disciplined" mode. The one "game" I have avoided religiously is giving her any idea that she can move my feet, so we are not playing "chase", and if she pushes into me, I play-wrestle with her until she takes at least a tiny step backwards. So as far as I'm concerned, she won't get the idea that she can "make humans move" by charging at them or rearing at them. 

What I'm mostly interested in is behavior that, from horse to horse, is affectionate and harmless, but could become a problem once she puts on another few dozen pounds or so. For example, when she chews my shirt, that's about the same behavior that I observe when she and mom groom each other. When she walks around me and leans against me, that's also something she does with mom. Taking a cue from mom, I don't correct her for that because it does seem like a sign of affection.

As she gets stronger, accidentally catching some skin when she "grooms" me, or unintentionally moving me when she leans against me does become a concern in her learning proper horse-human etiquettes. So, at which age does that correction start, and how does one go about it gently? 

If she'd ever pin her ears or swing her booty around at me, she'd get a swift smack on the butt, no question. However, nothing she does says anything other than that she likes playing with me, and she's doing nothing to practice "dominance" with me. So I'm interested in "corrections" that discourage the behavior, but are not punitive and don't destroy the trust she has in me that she's safe with me.


----------



## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

I never let my filly nibble on me when she was a baby, I just redirected her without discipline. There will come a time when the teeth come out to groom and she will be confused when she does get a smack. Leaning on me was not allowed either, I would just push her back until she took a step. 

Horses are gentle but powerful creatures. Personally, I don't think humans are a match for their grooming habits and playful gestures. What they do to each other with no harm intended could hurt us pretty badly.


----------



## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

LoriF said:


> I never let my filly nibble on me when she was a baby, I just redirected her without discipline. There will come a time when the teeth come out to groom and she will be confused when she does get a smack. Leaning on me was not allowed either, I would just push her back until she took a step.
> 
> Horses are gentle but powerful creatures. Personally, I don't think humans are a match for their grooming habits and playful gestures. What they do to each other with no harm intended could hurt us pretty badly.


That's perfect, thanks! Today, I played with her a little, and when she mouthed me (i.e. my shirt - no skin contact at all), I just took her little nose in both hands and moved it away. Pretty soon, she was just standing there in front of me, presenting the part of her body she wanted scratched, about 6 inches space between her and me. She did follow me around, though, for some distance even, away from mom. Mom didn't care and occupied herself with the hay feeder.

Too bad that the owner came later, and I observed her "leading" "training" - basically just dragged her around the pasture like a toy car while she was rearing and pulling back - no "small increments" to make her understand what's happening, rewarding of "the slightest try", no release, no kindness, no nothing. Mom stayed close to the filly the entire time - I watched from afar. 

I suppose I'll stay away from the two from now on - since it's that woman's horse and we seem to have diametrically opposed ideas about training, best to avoid all interactions, or BO will only get dragged in the middle.


----------



## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Would want to have permission from the owner to handle the mare and filly. People can get very possessive.


----------



## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

Yeah, i had to put a stop to the B/O's son taking Novia from her stall to the pasture in the mornings. She was getting uncontrollable for him. As she's getting bigger, she's decided to see if she can boss him around and it worked. He's going on 12 and he's a good little horseman for his age but still too small to be in charge. I don't want him to get hurt and I don't want her to start learning bad habits because he is unsure of what to do or not capable of doing anything.


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I don't really 'correct' my little ones until they do something that their dam would give them a quick kick for. So, nibbling on me while being scritched wouldn't get them 'corrected' just would shove their nose away and maybe move them closer to mom so they could groom on her, taking me out of the equation. The only things I'll correct firmly and quickly are the things that can/do hurt me like a kick or deliberate bite. If they kick me, and I stand close enough that even if it lands they don't really hurt me, I give them a swift kick in the behind with the side of my foot. If they bite, I'll grab them by the chin and give them a very firm nip right back. I don't kick full force or bite hard enough to leave teeth marks or break skin, just hard enough they know they've been bitten and it pinches pretty good. I will also send them out of my space and away from the dam, and keep them out for a few minutes while they think of the error of their ways. 

When teaching leading to them I have someone else lead the dam and I lead the foal, right up next to mom and we just walk around the yard in circles, but never take baby away. If baby balks I just shove them over sideways enough to unstick their feet and then encourage them to go forward with my lunge whip. I don't hit them with it, I just carry it so the lash end is back by their hind end and I just swing it in to their hip or butt enough that it touches them, not hits them, that's usually enough to get their feet going again. If they rear once or twice I don't worry about it, I just keep on walking and have mom's handler keep on leading her forward. Usually they go up once or twice and then figure out that mom is leaving them behind when they do that, so they quit pretty quickly. For those that don't catch on, if going up is starting to be a problem, I put them on a 25 ft. line and let them go up while I'm at the very end of the line. I give a quick pull that will unbalance them and they fall over on their side or butt and then get up looking around wondering what just happened. Once or twice with that and they figure out that they are doing it to themselves and they quit. The first couple of times we do the leading, if they move their feet forward 1 or 2 steps, they get praised and scritched and mom led over to give them a drink if they want one. I never pull one around by the neck like a 'toy car' as you say. That just seems to make things go backwards and take a lot longer.


----------



## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

AnitaAnne said:


> Would want to have permission from the owner to handle the mare and filly. People can get very possessive.


Yeah, I didn't really feel the need to "handle" them. I just went to their pasture, did not approach them, and let them decide whether or not to hang out with me. I wanted to help the little one to get comfy with interacting with humans, not actually "do" anything with her. Well, she's comfortable with me, that's for sure - the owner is on the fast track to making her head shy and hard to catch.

I read just yesterday that,

_"You might be able to out-muscle a young foal, but in his struggle to get free, he often is the one injured. Most bad injuries are caused by foals rearing up and flipping over backward. This type of fall can lead to trauma of the head, neck, or extremities, with very serious consequences, such as blindness, brain damage, or fractures." _

After Bibi (whose injury was a playing accident, not human error), I couldn't deal with something like that again. Plus I don't want to be blamed if and when she ultimately ruins the horse.

I should just stick to motorcycles...


----------



## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

If it were me, I would just go and say hello to them and leave it at that. You are right, you don't want to get blamed for things when they don't go the owners way and people have a tendency to do that. They forget that when they are pointing a finger that three are pointing back at them. 

Motorcycles? I've seen people get pretty upset for someone putting fingerprints and sitting on their newly polished bike. lol It's not the hobby, it's just people. It's how we roll.


----------



## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I never pull one around by the neck like a 'toy car' as you say. That just seems to make things go backwards and take a lot longer.


No frickin' kidding! The little one doesn't know yet it's supposed to yield to halter pressure, you gotta explain it first! Since I wouldn't be on the clock to churn out started horses as quickly as possible, I'd do it no different that teaching them to flex: put a little pressure, as soon as there is an intent to move forward, release, praise. Repeat. Until the foal figures out (understands!!) that giving to the pressure is the way to release the pressure from the halter. All she got to learn yesterday was to balk, to rear, to resist, and to fear her owner.

My previous BO, all the troubles there notwithstanding, told me that a training session should be fun and enjoyable for the horse, so they come back for more. Yes, sometimes you have to lean on them and make them uncomfortable, but you have to do it in a way that they have a chance to give you the answer you were looking for. What I saw yesterday did not amount to teaching the horse, but to overpowering the horse. Then, when she's 500 pounds, she'll be labeled obstinate and stubborn. SMH.


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

mmshiro said:


> My previous BO, all the troubles there notwithstanding, told me that a training session should be fun and enjoyable for the horse, so they come back for more. Yes, sometimes you have to lean on them and make them uncomfortable, but you have to do it in a way that they have a chance to give you the answer you were looking for. What I saw yesterday did not amount to teaching the horse, but to overpowering the horse. Then, when she's 500 pounds, she'll be labeled obstinate and stubborn. SMH.


That's all true. When I have the foal following their dam, they frequently balk, try to go another direction, give me 100 opportunities to teach them to 'give to the pressure' without a big fight. The main thing in their little brains is, "Mom = Safety" so they don't want to be left behind. I have whoever is walking the dam stop when the foal stops and/or tries to go another way. I give them a few minutes to figure out that 'my way(the foal) = pressure, her way(the human) = release and praise and scritches' and then have them start to lead mom on the circle. As mom pulls away, the foal follows mom, pressure is released and nobody had a fight. Once they get that concept, I'll send mom left and try to take the foal right for one or 2 steps, but still let them see that they are in their safety zone and sight of mom. And if they get all upset, I just turn and take them to mom, no big fuss. They're just babies. Fighting with them early on just teaches them to resist EVERYTHING in the future. I also keep my sessions short, no more than 15 mins at a time and usually a lot less.


----------



## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> The main thing in their little brains is, "Mom = Safety" so they don't want to be left behind.


That is the crazy part about this one! While mom was snacking at the hay feeder, I coaxed the foal into following me at liberty about 10-15m away from mom. If you stay within that radius around her, there should be no problem teaching her "giving to halter pressure" in a gentle way without balking - she's that independent and curious already.


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

mmshiro said:


> That is the crazy part about this one! While mom was snacking at the hay feeder, I coaxed the foal into following me at liberty about 10-15m away from mom. If you stay within that radius around her, there should be no problem teaching her "giving to halter pressure" in a gentle way without balking - she's that independent and curious already.


Exactly. You have to account for the foal you're working with. I have 2 this year and they couldn't be more different. One is huge (not kidding looks like a 6 month old colt at 1 month) and the other a small working cow type. The big one is the shy one and clings to mom like a coat of paint. The little one is as curious as a cat and wants to check out everything. Foal 1 follows mom, foal 2 leads mom. 2 totally different personalities and thus, require different approaches to handle and teach anything.


----------



## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

mmshiro said:


> Yeah, I didn't really feel the need to "handle" them. I just went to their pasture, did not approach them, and let them decide whether or not to hang out with me. I wanted to help the little one to get comfy with interacting with humans, not actually "do" anything with her. Well, she's comfortable with me, that's for sure - the owner is on the fast track to making her head shy and hard to catch.


Let me rephrase that. IMO permission would be needed before even being in the same pasture with a mare and foal (unless you have a horse in the same pasture). A new foal is like a new baby to many people, and they don't want anyone around it...

Have been in boarding situations with new foals before, and the rules always were no-one is allowed around them except owner and barn owner and/or barn manager. 

Have seen foal owners get very ugly if they think someone is touching their baby without their knowledge. Tread carefully.


----------



## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

AnitaAnne said:


> Let me rephrase that. IMO permission would be needed before even being in the same pasture with a mare and foal (unless you have a horse in the same pasture). A new foal is like a new baby to many people, and they don't want anyone around it...
> 
> Have been in boarding situations with new foals before, and the rules always were no-one is allowed around them except owner and barn owner and/or barn manager.
> 
> Have seen foal owners get very ugly if they think someone is touching their baby without their knowledge. Tread carefully.


Well, she better keep in mind the law of unintended consequences. Yesterday, she could not bring mare and foal in for the night, because she was somewhere where she could only get away after midnight or so. Barn owner was 2 hours' drive away. Guess who got the call from BO to go out to the barn to bring them in? Yup, that's right - the *only* other person who could do it without drama and risk, because he had already established a good, trusting relationship with both horses.

So rather than "getting ugly", I think a "Thank you!" would be more in order from here on out. Because I'm not sure how many coyotes mom could have defended against...


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

mmshiro said:


> So rather than "getting ugly", I think a "Thank you!" would be more in order from here on out.


Yeah, just remember that no good deed goes unpunished and don't be surprised if she tries to bite (owner, not horse).


----------



## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Yeah, just remember that no good deed goes unpunished and don't be surprised if she tries to bite (owner, not horse).


I'm German. "I just followed orders!" will be my go-to excuse for this one.


----------



## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

mmshiro said:


> Well, she better keep in mind the law of unintended consequences. Yesterday, she could not bring mare and foal in for the night, because she was somewhere where she could only get away after midnight or so. Barn owner was 2 hours' drive away. Guess who got the call from BO to go out to the barn to bring them in? Yup, that's right - the *only* other person who could do it without drama and risk, because he had already established a good, trusting relationship with both horses.
> 
> So rather than "getting ugly", I think a "Thank you!" would be more in order from here on out. Because I'm not sure how many coyotes mom could have defended against...


Maybe she won't care, maybe she will. I don't know the lady at all. 

But yeah, No good deed goes unpunished, sort of like me trying to warn you to tread carefully :frown_color: Signing off this thread now


----------



## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

Generally, earlier correction relates to gentler correction. The more improper behavior is tolerated, the more likely the horse will consider later correction to be “unfair”. Why is one action OK but a similar action not OK? There is always a balance between being too picky about little things and decided when behavior becomes unacceptable.

Relating one’s reactions to the mother’s reactions may not be the best choice. People working with horses living in herds have pointed out that mothers sometime spoil their children. It is the other mares who teach the young horses social etiquette.


----------



## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

TXhorseman said:


> Generally, earlier correction relates to gentler correction.


Yup, did that today - albeit through the fence - I didn't enter the pasture. Baby was nibbling at my shirt sleeves, but instead of swatting at her face and yelling in anger (like owner - "BAD GIRL!!!!"), I just pinched her chin with my fingers until it became uncomfortable, without any other change in my body language or demeanor. I did that twice, and after that nibbling did not happen again, though she did enjoy some more scratches. 10 minutes later, after I had left and returned to her pasture, she still was happy to see me (at the fence), but no more nibbling occurred at all. She just showed up for her scratches.
@AnitaAnne : Sorry I wasn't clear - none of what I wrote in response to you was meant as attack against you. You are correct about the reality of barn witches, but THEY usually aren't.


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

mmshiro said:


> I'm German. "I just followed orders!" will be my go-to excuse for this one.


Yeaaaaah, I can think of several that didn't work out so well for.......jus' sayin'. :icon_rolleyes:


----------

