# Western Dressage - Thoughts ?



## SouthernTrails

.

I have been hearing a lot in the last few months about Western Dressage and a search on the Internet is showing a lot in interest also. People are calling looking for Western Dressage Saddles, Etc.

Of course I have heard those that are insulted because of the new Discipleship. 

Can we not have the beauty of English Dressage and Western Showmanship?

Leaving the Insults out, anyone have any thoughts?
Anyone ever been to a competition for it? 
Anyone interested in trying it?

.


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## gigem88

I thinks it's great. It's getting people together and enjoying their horses who otherwise may never have crossed paths. Just another niche where someone can find like-minded folks! I think the western dressage saddles are hideous, but that's just me.


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## Tracer

How would Western dressaqe be different to reining? TBH, it seems silly to make a 'new' discipline when one just like it already exists.


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## franknbeans

THere are maneuvers in dressage that are not used (or at least shown) in reining. For example, jogging/trotting is minimal, and they just introduced the gait in a couple of their patterns, primarily to speed up the shows, or so I have been told by an officer in the NRHA as well as a judge. THe actual maneuvers that are used in the show patterns of a reiner may not show all of their abilities, particularly when it comes to lateral movements. Therefore, western dressage would be different, and is NOT the same as reining.


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## MHFoundation Quarters

I'm not a fan. To me it seems like trying to reinvent the wheel. Western already has a class that is pretty well the same, horsemanship. Pattern with speed/tempo changes, changes of gait, lead changes, sidepass, etc. It's just done with cones instead of letters for markers. 

Some equate it with reining, I disagree. It isn't reining, not by a long shot. It is however some of the basic principles put on a young horse that may be headed towards reining or any other western performance event for that matter. From what I have seen of W. Dressage I would expect any youngster with a good start on them to be able to ace the tests I've looked over. 

In its essence it goes against most western teachings. 2 hands with contact in a shanked bit? No thank you. A horse that is ridden in a shanked bit shouldn't require contact to perform as asked, at that point it should be seat primarily and a bit of quiet leg. That isn't to say that western horses aren't taught with contact or schooled that way, of course they are but in a snaffle to prepare them for the next step. Some contact is required to teach many things a good western performance horse should know but not something they will always require, nor should they imo. 

I guess for me it boils down to dressage is dressage. Western riding/horsemanship isn't dressage nor is dressage western. I kind of think it is a bit of a slap in the face to those who ride true dressage as well as those that ride western performance horses as it truly is neither. The only benefit I see to this new discipline is a chance to school youngsters before spending big bucks putting them in the show pen in a more advanced western performance discipline.

Opinions aside, if I were a saddle maker I would by all means jump on it. Kevin if people are willing to pay for it, take their money! :wink:


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## Muppetgirl

When I first heard of it, I was pretty excited!!!.......THEN I went online and viewed some videos....and one was a demonstration for a crowd of the new 'thing' called WD....I was shocked, the lady riding had the horse is a great big shank with full contact on and had the horse lifted up with it.....the bit remained horizontal to the ground throughout the whole demo......not cool....therefore unless there are some advancements in tack (ie, hate the saddle, what's wrong with my reining saddle?) and bitting rules, I will not even entertain the idea of training to enter one of those classes......


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## DancingArabian

Same. I thought it was going to be something like dressage but with western carriage and aids, but its dressage in western tack. I thought it was neat until I saw how people were riding it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Inga

To me it seems like a silly waste of money because you have to buy all kinds of different tack to perform in something that already exists with a different name. That said, if you have money to spend, go for it. If you want to work on dressage while in western tack, that is your business. I don' t know how anyone can get "offended" by what others are doing with their horses, their money and their time. As long as it isn't something that hurts the horse (and that doesn't) then who cares? Have fun along the way.


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## bsms

Other than the tack, what is western about "western dressage"?

And if you stick big knee rolls onto the fender to hold the leg down (WTF,O!), then what is western about tack like that?

If someone enjoys it and it gets them out riding their horse, that is fine by me. I just wish they would change the name. Maybe..."Horned Dressage"? :?


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## jaydee

Personally I think if people want to do it and it gets them out there doing stuff with their horses then why not.
Anything that boosts the horse market right now and encourages people to get out and buy horses and equipment is a good thing
You dont have to use a shanked bit to do it - bitless bridles are acceptable too and you dont have to have both hands on the reins either
Someone doing the tests on a Morgan horse will have a higher head carriage because thats natural for them but if you're doing it on a quarter horse then it will have a lower outline
Its new, its going to take time to evolve and I dont think its going to go away because its something the older or more sedate western rider is wanting to do.
THis is a video I found of a low level test - not seeing the head cranked up here and its definitely not a dressage horse ridden in western tack either
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IH8v6ovPTcc&feature=g-like

Cowboy Dressage™ at Wolf Creek Ranch

I'm not even a western rider so I've got no bias here at all
There are a lot of horse sports that I wouldnt ever want to do but no way would I knock them or people who get pleasure out of doing them


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## Poseidon

I think it's a joke. I'm all for cross training with dressage on a western horse because some benefit from it. In fact, my BOs have a halter-bred pleasure-trained gelding that tore himself all up in some barbed wire over the summer and the vet's suggestion to get him back into work after healing was to do dressage with him. 

However, pretending you're some Prix St. George rider in a western saddle looks dumb, IMO. If you want to show dressage, it's time for you to go saddle shopping.


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## Muppetgirl

This is what I watched.......was not impressed by the amount of contact.....in that bit.....could it been done on this horse in a bit approved and used by GP dressage officials? I'm not sure......anyway, each to their own.....it's not for me...


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## Dustbunny

I belong to a sport horse club. We discussed the possibility of including classes for WD in our show next year. It appears that our breed will be sanctioning these class in the future as there is growning interest. Personally, I think activities that promote any and all breeds, get people to improve their knowledge and skills and training for their horses is a good thing.
I also understand there is a difference between Cowboy Dressage and Western Dressage. I need to educate myself but I look at this new interest as a good thing.


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## Joe4d

anything is better than watching horses drag their nose in the dirt in a peanut rolling contest while walking stiff legged so slow they are moving backwards.


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## bsms

Muppetgirl said:


> This is what I watched.......was not impressed by the amount of contact.....in that bit.....could it been done on this horse in a bit approved and used by GP dressage officials? I'm not sure......anyway, each to their own.....it's not for me...


That video is a good example of why the WD movement grates on my nerves. There was nothing western about what the horse was doing or how it was being ridden. I have no objection to folks riding dressage. It isn't my cup of tea, but so what? But calling that "Western" seems dishonest to me.

I sometimes put an English CC saddle on Mia and ride her, but most of how I sit and how I cue her and how I use the reins is much closer to western riding. Sticking an English saddle under my butt doesn't make me an English rider, or Mia an English-trained horse.

It seems it would be more honest to simply open up a sub-set of dressage and allow it to be ridden at the lower levels in western tack, and justify it by saying it increases interest in dressage for those who can't afford or don't want two sets of tack.


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## Sherian

It seems it would be more honest to simply open up a sub-set of dressage and allow it to be ridden at the lower levels in western tack, and justify it by saying it increases interest in dressage for those who can't afford or don't want two sets of tack.[/QUOTE]

this I agree with - a local dressage group had a men only class at a fun show but it had to be ridden in english tack, I would think they would have been wise to be open about tack as alot of husbands who are casual riders would only have a western or aussie trail saddle that fit them and their horse- there's no way my hubby would fit in my english saddle, he dosen't have tall boots or half chaps etc, and we weren't going on a shopping spree for one class.


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## Muppetgirl

Joe4d said:


> anything is better than watching horses drag their nose in the dirt in a peanut rolling contest while walking stiff legged so slow they are moving backwards.


Yes, you're right.....there should be a happy medium.....it seems to go from one extreme to another....


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## jaydee

The clip of the Morgan horse was 2 years ago and I think this is not going to be the direction the sport moves in as they want to promote 'light hands' horsemanship. I think that was a really bad example myself
From what I see and read its not going to evolve into conventional dressage in western tack either and so far the popular horses for it seem to be the Morgan, Quarter horses and Gypsy cobs
There are videos on the Cowboy Dressage youtube channel and cowboydressage.com (Eitan Beth-Halachmy) that have a lot of information - including saddles which to me look pretty much like western saddles
I think people are using too many assumptions on what its going to be about rather than do some extensive searches - more than one place
No one has to do it any more than we all have to compete in barrel racing or eventing
Each to their own please, the world needs more tolerance!!!


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## Muppetgirl

jaydee said:


> The clip of the Morgan horse was 2 years ago and I think this is not going to be the direction the sport moves in as they want to promote 'light hands' horsemanship. I think that was a really bad example myself
> From what I see and read its not going to evolve into conventional dressage in western tack either and so far the popular horses for it seem to be the Morgan, Quarter horses and Gypsy cobs
> There are videos on the Cowboy Dressage youtube channel and cowboydressage.com (Eitan Beth-Halachmy) that have a lot of information - including saddles which to me look pretty much like western saddles
> I think people are using too many assumptions on what its going to be about rather than do some extensive searches - more than one place
> No one has to do it any more than we all have to compete in barrel racing or eventing
> Each to their own please, the world needs more tolerance!!!


Thanks for the info....I will go and look later tonight.....


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## jaydee

Muppetgirl said:


> Thanks for the info....I will go and look later tonight.....


 Well you know you dont have to participate in these things to learn about them -I knew nothing about Western riding before we came here and now exploring a whole new world of it - a lot through this forum
Everything has to start somewhere - they said the motorised carriage would never catch on!!!


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## Tigo

bsms said:


> That video is a good example of why the WD movement grates on my nerves. There was nothing western about what the horse was doing or how it was being ridden. I have no objection to folks riding dressage. It isn't my cup of tea, but so what? But calling that "Western" seems dishonest to me.


I think calling that "dressage" is also dishonest. I completely agree with that grating on nerves... 

--

As a dressage rider, that just makes me cringe. If that is "dressage" that is all wrong. Right off the bat, is that supposed to be half-pass at the trot?? A leg-yield?? Sorry, last time I checked, half pass doesn't lead with the haunches, and neither does leg yield. Whipping the haunches around and moving sideways is so not correct. For either of those movements. In the canter, is that a canter pirouette? Pulling your horse into a tiny circle isn't a pirouette. The changes are all late. The "contact" is just bit leverage. Pulling on your horse's face to shorten it's neck and make it upright is not collection, or correct contact. That horse is not anywhere near tracking up either (because of the "contact" or "collection"...). I could go on and on. 

Take the western tack off that horse, put in in english tack, throw it in a 3rd/4th level test (because those are the movements she is kind of showing here) and it would get absolutely ripped apart by the judges. 

I hope this post doesn't come off as incredibly rude, as that is not my objective. I'm simply incredibly surprised that this is "Grand National Western Dressage". To me, that implies that she is a more advanced rider of this new discipline. This rider does not do either of these disciplines justice, imo. As many people have mentioned, there are already disciplines in western that are like dressage. Incorporating dressage principles to your western training can't hurt, if that is what you choose to do. But to make a new discipline? I feel you're losing what distinguishes each discipline by mashing it together into something new. 

Sorry for the novel, I hope I haven't offended anyone :?

ETA: I would be interested in seeing some better examples for western dressage. It certainly could be interesting to learn about, and I do think that it could open avenues for riders who aren't looking to go FEI in dressage, but would like a feel for it at the lower levels.


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## bsms

Cowboy Dressage "I Will Survive" - YouTube!

It might be fun, or not, depending on one's taste, but if this is western dressage, then I submit it is neither.


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## Muppetgirl

bsms said:


> Cowboy Dressage "I Will Survive" - YouTube!
> 
> It might be fun, or not, depending on one's taste, but if this is western dressage, then I submit it is neither.


WTH? Haha! I saw him spinning that horse.......reining move? Over bridled and disjointed......I don't want to be a hater, it's just what I see.....no fluidity and soo much contact on that bit.....I'm not perfect for sure, but that grates on me....


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## deserthorsewoman

jaydee said:


> The clip of the Morgan horse was 2 years ago and I think this is not going to be the direction the sport moves in as they want to promote 'light hands' horsemanship. I think that was a really bad example myself
> From what I see and read its not going to evolve into conventional dressage in western tack either and so far the popular horses for it seem to be the Morgan, Quarter horses and Gypsy cobs
> There are videos on the Cowboy Dressage youtube channel and cowboydressage.com (Eitan Beth-Halachmy) that have a lot of information - including saddles which to me look pretty much like western saddles
> I think people are using too many assumptions on what its going to be about rather than do some extensive searches - more than one place
> No one has to do it any more than we all have to compete in barrel racing or eventing
> Each to their own please, the world needs more tolerance!!!


Agree! Something to keep in mind, it was a Morgan show, so Morgan stallion was used. To me he worked like he had learned only certain maneuvers, was not built up properly. It was a demo for the discipline. The rider still has a lot to learn, IMO, especially what to do and where to keep her hands. Horrible.
The first video I liked. And reading a bit on the website, doesn't sound bad at all. But......and that's not bad, mind you......it reminds me a lot of the way a bridle horse is worked. So, nothing new after all........


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## jaydee

Tigo said:


> I think calling that "dressage" is also dishonest. I completely agree with that grating on nerves...
> 
> --
> 
> As a dressage rider, that just makes me cringe. If that is "dressage" that is all wrong. Right off the bat, is that supposed to be half-pass at the trot?? A leg-yield?? Sorry, last time I checked, half pass doesn't lead with the haunches, and neither does leg yield. Whipping the haunches around and moving sideways is so not correct. For either of those movements. In the canter, is that a canter pirouette? Pulling your horse into a tiny circle isn't a pirouette. The changes are all late. The "contact" is just bit leverage. Pulling on your horse's face to shorten it's neck and make it upright is not collection, or correct contact. That horse is not anywhere near tracking up either (because of the "contact" or "collection"...). I could go on and on.
> 
> Take the western tack off that horse, put in in english tack, throw it in a 3rd/4th level test (because those are the movements she is kind of showing here) and it would get absolutely ripped apart by the judges.
> 
> I hope this post doesn't come off as incredibly rude, as that is not my objective. I'm simply incredibly surprised that this is "Grand National Western Dressage". To me, that implies that she is a more advanced rider of this new discipline. This rider does not do either of these disciplines justice, imo. As many people have mentioned, there are already disciplines in western that are like dressage. Incorporating dressage principles to your western training can't hurt, if that is what you choose to do. But to make a new discipline? I feel you're losing what distinguishes each discipline by mashing it together into something new.
> 
> Sorry for the novel, I hope I haven't offended anyone :?
> 
> ETA: I would be interested in seeing some better examples for western dressage. It certainly could be interesting to learn about, and I do think that it could open avenues for riders who aren't looking to go FEI in dressage, but would like a feel for it at the lower levels.


 Now I did get accused of being pretentious when I said this in another WD thread but the 'dressage' from the french word 'dresser' actually means
_The guiding of a horse through a series of complex maneuvers by slight movements of the rider's hands, legs, and weight._
_the training of horses in obedience and the execution of precise movements._
_the method of training a horse to perform manoeuvres in response to the rider's body signals_
We've come to see it as the conventional dressage we're familiar with but its not incorrect to apply it to any form of training
You cant compare it to the sort of dressage we understand because it isnt the same thing
If it continues to gain popularity as something for people who want to use western tack and do a form of dressage that is easier and more suited to the western style of riding and horse then why not let them enjoy it?


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## bsms

jaydee said:


> ...We've come to see it as the conventional dressage we're familiar with but its not incorrect to apply it to any form of training...


Actually, since we aren't French, it is incorrect. Or if not incorrect, at least confusing. If we want to convey the idea of "training", we have a word for that - training.

I have no objection to folks doing these sorts of things. It is the name that grates on me, because what they are doing isn't really western OR dressage. When my horse starts prancing down a wash with her nose against her chest, I don't look at my saddle and claim I'm doing "Australian Dressage"...:wink:


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## FalineDear

It's basically just dressage with different tack. In other words, it's a wolf in sheep's clothing.


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## jaydee

One of the main supporters for it evolved his idea for Cowboy dressage from Freestyle reining - which his horse Holiday Compadre was a champion in in the 1990's and not from conventional dressage

bsms - sorry if the habit of borrowing words from other languages confuses you - unfortunately the English language is a total mish mosh of european languages down to the annoying habit they had of invading Britain and leaving a reminder of themselves behind!!!
Dressage is only using the horses natural movements and harnessing them so when your mare does her sideways shimmy then she is sort of doing dressage au natural


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## QHriderKE

If you want to do dressage buy a REAL dressage saddle, and do dressage the traditional way. 

Just my honest opinion.


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## Tigo

jaydee said:


> Now I did get accused of being pretentious when I said this in another WD thread but the 'dressage' from the french word 'dresser' actually means
> _The guiding of a horse through a series of complex maneuvers by slight movements of the rider's hands, legs, and weight._
> _the training of horses in obedience and the execution of precise movements._
> _the method of training a horse to perform manoeuvres in response to the rider's body signals_
> We've come to see it as the conventional dressage we're familiar with but its not incorrect to apply it to any form of training
> You cant compare it to the sort of dressage we understand because it isnt the same thing
> If it continues to gain popularity as something for people who want to use western tack and do a form of dressage that is easier and more suited to the western style of riding and horse then why not let them enjoy it?


I understand where you're coming from, completely. I would also agree with how it's been defined there. I never said that it shouldn't be allowed, if you (using you as a general term in this entire paragraph) want to slap a western saddle on your horse and call it dressage be my guest as that is your choice, I just might not agree. The upside I see to western dressage is if someone wants to dabble in another discipline but doesn't have the tack for it, then it gives them a chance to experience something new that could end up helping them along in their riding. Of course its not incorrect to apply aspects of another discipline...it can be helpful in fact! I've jumped my dressage horses before as cross training, albeit not very often. But, you wouldn't (for example) put a western saddle on a hunter horse, put it over jumps and call it western hunter, would you? Same as you're not going to do a reining pattern on your horse in a dressage saddle and call it dressage reining (I would hope). 

Sure, the term dressage is derived from the idea of basic training (essentially). Tell an FEI dressage rider that what they're doing is the same as that guy in the western saddle training dressage tricks, and I'm sure they wouldn't take it so well. I know I wouldn't. If we can't compare conventional dressage, like we all know, to western 'dressage' then don't call it western 'dressage' and find another term for it! I work hard at my discipline of dressage, as do most dressage riders, and I'm proud to call it dressage. Start calling what that morgan rider was doing in that video 'dressage' and that's going to bother me. She was simply doing the 'tricks' (poorly, I might add) which is so SO not what dressage is about. I would hope that was just a poor example of western dressage because if that is how it is normally ridden, I feel it's going to give the uneducated (for lack of a better term) of horse world a pretty dim view on what dressage truly is.

Also, the point of my first post was that the 'dressage' movements she was doing were completely incorrect and ill-ridden. If you're going to call what you're doing dressage, at least try to do it justice by learning to do the movements correctly (or at least giving it a wholehearted effort). Not that people shouldn't be allowed to do it, or enjoy it. 

I digress. I'm also off to find some more information on western dressage.


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## Kayty

AMEN, Tigo!!!!

I could not agree more with that statement. 
In my very honest opinion, "Western Dressage" is great for those in the community, who don't do well in standard western events, but are equally as incapable at riding true Dressage.


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## paintedpastures

After watching videos, reading about it & seeing various discussions on it,This whole WD thing,Put's a sour taste in my mouth:-(.I think it degrades the concept of true good western horses & English dressage horses.:-x


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## Captain Evil

bsms said:


> I just wish they would change the name. Maybe..."Horned Dressage"? :?


Or perhaps "Horny Dressage"? I think "Western dressage" is intriguing; what the heck! As long as you are excited about what you are doing, and the horse is working within it's capabilities and not being abused or stressed, why not? I am sure abuses will occur, but they occur in both English and Western disciplines anyway. I love dressage, but the whole rollkur thing makes me cringe...


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## Kayty

Captain Evil said:


> Or perhaps "Horny Dressage"? I think "Western dressage" is intriguing; what the heck! As long as you are excited about what you are doing, and the horse is working within it's capabilities and not being abused or stressed, why not? I am sure abuses will occur, but they occur in both English and Western disciplines anyway. *I love dressage, but the whole rollkur thing makes me cringe.*..


*Smacks head*

I hate Western.... those bits look like torture devices
I hate endurance.... making those poor horses trot for days on end
I hate black people... they're all dangerous....
See the trend???? 

I've seen rolkur used on show jumpers, eventers, heck even pony club horses. 
I ride Dressage, and I can assure you, I don't use Rolkur. In fact, I have only witnessed it being used by 2 Dressage riders in my state, though have heard whispers of a few others. 
Rolkur and Dressage does NOT go hand in hand. Don't get the two confused.


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## deserthorsewoman

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rpulN91qgQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player

This gentleman started something similar about 15years ago in Germany. Idea behind it is to ride with a mixture of Spanish, classical dressage, and California/vaquero style to create harmony and lightnes. He is giving clinics, wrote several books and trains certified trainers in this school. 
He doesn't require a certain saddle, as long as it is a deep seat, believes that no more than three different bits are needed and that the horse has to be worked up in the higher bit. 

He has many many hobby rider clients. Folks who just want to ride better. 
He doesn't call it "dressage". In fact, his first book is called "hobby rider academy"


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## Captain Evil

Kayty said:


> Rolkur and Dressage does NOT go hand in hand. Don't get the two confused.


No, no, I understand that. I was using rolkur (one "L"?) as an example. 

One could point to a rider schooling a dressage horse using rolkur techniques, and say, "I would never ride dressage; look at that, it's cruel!" just as one could point to a "western dressage" rider who is riding with a tight curb, and say " I dislike Western dressage, it is cruel." I'm sure there are examples of western dressage riders who ride beautifully and don't aggravate or hurt their horses, just as there are dressage riders who can ride wonderfully without even a bridle. I'm sure western dressage, done well, could be awesome. I prefer taking lessons and schooling in a dressage saddle, but that is just my preference. I think it is easier to communicate with less leather and bulk.


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## longride

It would help if people knew what dressage is. It isn't a discipline like jumping or reining. For the horse it's progressively first restoring it's ability to use it's body, especially the back, as nature intended, then building strength and suppleness so the horse can carry a rider with minimal damage to itself. There are some ideas that aren't found in other systems - like narrowing the horse's base of support as it gains strength and agility. The training is done by using the horse's own body weight and movement as the resistance that builds strength. Where the weight is carried and how movement is created and shaped is controlled and aided by changes in how the rider places his own weight, supported by the toning or relaxation of muscles in the seat, legs, body and hands. 

The skill of the dressage trainer is knowing how to place the horse's weight in each exercise so that maximum benefit is achieved and how to combine exercises and progress from one to another so the horse is never overfaced but is continuously challenged. Because this has been studied for centuries certain progressions are "set" - everyone knows them and they are taught in text books. True masters don't need or follow the text books. They ride the moment and the needs of the individual horse. 

Why can't this be done with a western horse?

Since it takes yeas of correct training to make a bridle horse or dressage horse it's not surprising that the videos out there are pretty awful. So are the majority of riding videos of any endeavor. There's been a noticeable improvement over the past 12 months.


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## Muppetgirl

deserthorsewoman said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rpulN91qgQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player
> 
> This gentleman started something similar about 15years ago in Germany. Idea behind it is to ride with a mixture of Spanish, classical dressage, and California/vaquero style to create harmony and lightnes. He is giving clinics, wrote several books and trains certified trainers in this school.
> He doesn't require a certain saddle, as long as it is a deep seat, believes that no more than three different bits are needed and that the horse has to be worked up in the higher bit.
> 
> He has many many hobby rider clients. Folks who just want to ride better.
> He doesn't call it "dressage". In fact, his first book is called "hobby rider academy"


I just watched it! Too bad I don't speak German, however I got the message! Neat!


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## Captain Evil

I agree with you, Longride. "Dressage" translates roughly as "Training" so in a sense you can't really even say "I ride dressage," any more than you can say "I ride training." But it works as sort of a shorthand way to describe an approach or a broad philosophy toward riding; gives you a quick mental image of what someone is talking about. You can use the principles and methodologies of dressage with any tack, or no even tack at all. But it is easier, I think, to school a horse using traditional dressage tack than other tack, like a western saddle or a jumping saddle.


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## bsms

longride said:


> It would help if people knew what dressage is. It isn't a discipline like jumping or reining. For the horse it's progressively first restoring it's ability to use it's body, especially the back, as nature intended, then building strength and suppleness so the horse can carry a rider with minimal damage to itself. There are some ideas that aren't found in other systems - like narrowing the horse's base of support as it gains strength and agility...
> 
> Why can't this be done with a western horse?...


Because the goal of dressage differs from the goals of western riding. The goal of dressage is for the horse to move in collected gaits, which can be defined as the horse doing the most work while covering the least ground. And that is contrary to western riding, "western pleasure" not withstanding.

Western riding reasonably should be the style of riding used on the ranches of the west. And a ranch horse doesn't need collected gaits. A big, bouncy sitting trot is NOT a western approach to a sitting trot. It is spectacular and appropriate for dressage, but not for western riding.

Western saddles do not encourage lots of motion of the horse's back, because the long bars of the saddle tree are contrary to how you would design a saddle for maximum use of the horse's back. They do work well for roping, or working cattle, or for someone who may spend 12 hours or more in the saddle.

In dressage, the horse is supposed to be heavily cued, with the rider making all the decisions. In most western riding, the horse is encouraged to make some of the decision, since a human cannot respond to a cow's movement and then direct the horse what to do - not if they are going to work cattle together.

None of this implies a western rider couldn't dabble in dressage as cross training or a way to have fun or a way to work on their horse's general physical conditioning. And frankly, that is what some of these videos look like - someone dabbling in dressage. I don't barrel race, but I've gotten some good advice from ex-barrel racers on how to get my horses to move better. But borrowing ideas on training from a barrel racer doesn't mean *I'm* a barrel racer.

That is part of the problem with "western dressage". It mixes two different ways of riding without appreciating either. If dressage wanted to introduce a category where someone could compete at the lower levels using western tack, I wouldn't object. It would be clear the person is learning some fundamentals of a different sport without buying new tack, while also making it obvious that if the person wants to get serious about dressage....well, then they will need to get serious.

If the WD people would change the name, I wouldn't object. But as it is, I think they insult both western riders and dressage riders by trivializing the traditions and training of both.


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## bsms

Captain Evil said:


> I agree with you, Longride. "Dressage" translates roughly as "Training" so in a sense you can't really even say "I ride dressage," any more than you can say "I ride training."...


Pet peeve time:

Dressage, as an *ENGLISH* word, refers to a specific style of riding. The style uses a deep seat, long legs, rider-cued to train the horse in what I consider to be pretty spectacular and impressive movements.

If we start using "dressage" to mean "any training", then what word do we use when we want to describe "dressage"? My avatar is a picture taken while I was working on Mia's training as a trail horse. If that is dressage, then what word do we use to describe this:










Because that is a different approach to riding from this:


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## jaydee

Kayty said:


> AMEN, Tigo!!!!
> 
> I could not agree more with that statement.
> In my very honest opinion, "Western Dressage" is great for those in the community, who don't do well in standard western events, but are equally as incapable at riding true Dressage.


 Isnt this exactly one of the reasons its going to become so popular - because it is aimed at western riders who either dont want to become involved in other western events for whatever reason (not essentially because they dont do well in them) but dont want do ride what we see as 'true dressage' - again not essentially because they are incapable in actual ability but because they want to ride western style because they always have and they dont want to have to buy dressage saddles and black jackets and the required headgear and breeches and boots - they want to ride in their cowboy hats and jeans and shirts and compete on their quarter horses or whatever other breed they happen to own that would struggle to hold its own against a warmblood - we went to watch a low level dressage event recently and 90% of the horses were 16.2 plus warmbloods
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ycY1S-BbwI&feature=g-hist

I think this is the highlights difference between the type of horse that does dressage and the type of horse thats being seen in the western dressage - two very different styles but not such different techniques to get the results but the two horses could not compete against each other
This is an old clip of Holiday Compadre in his world champion freestyle reining that inspired the owner to evolve it into what we are calling western or cowboy dressage
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cux32KeuQTA

Even the dressage we recognise today is different to the original Haute Ecole classical dressage style (1600's) that it evolved from and that still exists.
Maybe the fact that I dont ride western and my 'english riding' is more focused on (UK) Working hunter classes with a lot of actual hunting, some cross country and a bit of one day eventing makes me less inclined to get my knickers in a twist about it
Perhaps they should have thought of an alternative name as *bsms *suggested and then not offended anyones sensitivities.
I can honestly say that in my lifetime I have seen some pretty awful things that warranted the hands thrown up in horror reaction - WD/CD does not even come close!!!


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## Celeste

If the western pleasure classes are going to be nothing but moving so slow that the horse looks lame, it really leave the ordinary people out of something to do in the western world if they don't work cows or barrel race. This is most likely a response to the extremes that western pleasure has gone. I watched several of the videos and they looked like normal horses. I don't quite get the whole reason that the WD riders that I watched hold the reins out so far wide that the horse can see their hands.

I agree with several people that they could use a new name for the sport. I would suggest "the way people used to ride".


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## Joe4d

bsms said:


> Actually, since we aren't French, it is incorrect. Or if not incorrect, at least confusing. If we want to convey the idea of "training", we have a word for that - training.
> 
> I have no objection to folks doing these sorts of things. It is the name that grates on me, because what they are doing isn't really western OR dressage. When my horse starts prancing down a wash with her nose against her chest, I don't look at my saddle and claim I'm doing "Australian Dressage"...:wink:



Hahaha **** ! I love it, gonna have to add that to my list of ready to use smart a#$ answers . Woulda been perfect at Miss Emma's first endurance race, she decided bouncing sideways down the trail was a cool thing to do. Sometimes on all fours and sometimes on just ther back feet,
"So ummm are you ok ?" 
"Yep I'm just doing my Aussi Dressage"


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## jaydee

^^^ *Joe4D & bsms* - I have been doing it (aussie Dressage UK style) for years and on many different horses so I am something of an expert
You keep cool, maintain your composure, smile, nod and say
"Actually I asked him/her to do that"


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## SouthernTrails

.

I am not a Dressage Rider, but have been around it, but is Dressage not a form of Artistic Expression with a Horse?

Does a Saddle make it possible or not possible for a Horse to perform? Being a novice, I can look at a close contact English Saddle and a Dressage Saddle and wonder if the differences make it impossible for the Horse to perform it's moves?
In that perspective if you have a close contact type of Western Saddle, can the Horse not receive the same or similar Aids to perform Dressage movements?

I know there are many levels to Dressage, but does not combining Western and Dressage allow more people to be involved in a beautiful artistic expression of Horsemanship at certain levels?

.


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## longride

There are many contradictions in the arguments against WD. 

The back can't be free in a western saddle but Buck and Richard Caldwell's horses move with free swinging backs. There's a lovely video of Richard doing an extended trot working cattle and I can find lots of ranch horses in a long trot that is free and swinging. 

The saddle doesn't allow fine cues with the seat - but reiners and bridle horses work entirely off the seat. 

A horse worked above 2nd level collection can't handle extensions and rough terrain - but one of the top endurance horses was known to be working 3rd level. He was top year after year and his rider attributed it to the gymnastic work done in dressage. 

A dressage horse is rider dependent - but see above,and my own experience is that my upper level dressage horses were also the most confident and wonderful at picking up new games, be it cross country, trail or playing with cows. Good balance makes horses confident. 

The problems come when riders become too focused on their own particular specialty. The trainer who plans for all his horses to be good all around mounts gets that even when the horse becomes a specialist. Pure dressage work can only be done for about 45 minutes at a time and is not necessary every day - that leaves many many hours when the horse can be doing other types of work that keep it versatile and sane. It's like time in the gym. Yes, it can be overdone and become an obsession. That's a trainer problem.


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## core

Here are my issues with WD. Bad dressage training is rewarded in WD. If you want to train your western horse in dressage, with a western saddle. Go for it. I would be glad to support you 100% in your efforts. As long as you are honestly attempting to embrace the core concepts of dressage, and to create a happier, more supple horse that uses it's body more effectively, then I say go for it.

But that's not what is occurring. What's happening is that people who don't understand the concepts in dressage are attempting to emulate it. However, the very basics of real dressage are not being shown, or taught. So instead of broadening interest in the real benefits of dressage, you guys are ending up with ponies that have every bad habit that a **** poor dressage rider would instill in their horse. If you're going to emulate us, could you at least pick our good points? Its kind of silly to set about copying dressage and then ending up duplicating everything you hated about us in the first place. 

Lets compare WD and real dressage: 
This is an 80+% score in western dressage:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBY2_E9BiIY
It say's on the video description, "This video is meant to be an educational and inspirational video to show what the judges are looking for in a Western Dressage horse." 

The test sheet for USEF Western Dressage Primary Level Test 2 - http://www.flatheadeventing.org/documents/WesternDressageTests/WesternDressagePrimaryLevel2.pdf

The Primary Level 2 is closest to our Training Level Test 2. 
Training Level Test 2 sheet: http://www.bakersfielddressage.com/uploads/6/0/3/1/6031530/2011trainingleveltest2.pdf

So here's a kid riding a Training Level Test 2 in 2010. She only got a 71%: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuW0u4pHBwI
I had a hard time finding anything in real dressage that was greater than a high 60% so I could accurately compare a great dressage ride to a "great" WD ride. We'll just have to use a good dressage test ridden by a kid and compare it to an professional adult rider instead. 

On the WD video, at 4:54, they pick up the left lead canter. What happened there would've earned me a 5, tops. He got an 8. How can we possibly take WD seriously when judges think even **** poor execution is so awesome it deserves an 8? Horse isn't tracking up. It's tight through it's back. It has a curb bit and tight reins. It's forced into a high headset. The leg's are coming higher, but not reaching out. The horse is tight, stiff, and doesn't have a natural swing to it's back. It's back is hollow. It's closed through the throat latch and braced in the neck. Did I mention it's braced in the neck... That thing is going to have some massive muscles in the underside of it's neck if they keep training it like that. How can that be an 80+%???? (side note: my goodness that guy cannot sit a trot. I felt sorry for that horse).

Now watch the kid in the dressage video. The horse is swinging nicely through it's back. It's reaching out toward the contact of the bit, and has a nice open throat latch. It has a nice regular tempo and rhythm, with ground covering strides that reach forward and under the body. The rider isn't very consistent in the contact, but you can see her drop the inside rein at times to give the horse room to use it's neck. You can tell the kid has some problems with contact, but she's much kinder on the horse than the WD rider with his shanked bit and absolutely no release from pressure. 

Out of those two tests, which was the better ridden test? Which horse seemed happier, more relaxed, more responsive? Which horse looked like it was using it's whole body? 

In my eye's there's no comparison. The dressage horse was being trained in a way that allows the horse to develop it's whole body, and with that you can start on collection. The WD horse will never achieve collection while being ridden the way it is. It cannot use it's body effectively, and the best that horse will ever accomplish is exactly where it's at right now (a very basic pattern class). If that's all you ever want.. go for it, but you're going to miss out on something really amazing.


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## longride

And the odd thing is the same judge is giving those 8s that was judging the regular dressage classes at that show, so if the scores are inflated, the problem isn't WD, it's the judging. The interesting thing would be to see what kind of scores the INTRO and Training level horses were getting there. I asked a show manager who had had WD dressage classes at all her shows this year if she saw a difference in the scoring. She said not really - the scores were about the same. Intro and Training level horses tended to get very high scores as well. After all, the requirements are so low, especially for Intro. 

Cowboy Dressage is a bit different, but both the WDAA and NAWD do require the same levels of accomplishment for the lower levels shown in regular dressage. I think the curb will disappear from the lower levels as riders find that getting bend in a lower level horse in a curb usually results in the horse going hollow, but there's a lot of education to be done. 

BTW, the vast majority of instructors that have started teaching western dressage in the last year are dressage instructors who already have strong dressage programs. This was certainly true at the Train the Trainers symposium held by the WDAA. It will take more than 2 years to have educated competitors.


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## jaydee

I do think that people need to stop comparing it to european dressage and see it as a 'stand alone' sport. 
The tests I looked at on the Cowboy Dressage site asked for walk,jog & lope - how could you really compare the judging of those paces to the collected paces in conventional dressage - you cant.
It also definitely needs its own judges 
You wouldnt compare the style of riding/handling for scurry speed jumping to the way you ride a horse in a puissance competition.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYvGckXLQfk
This child scored 65% in her pony club dressage test (please no comments) and her performance no way resembles someone working at FEI levels - but still called dressage and still giving someone pleasure and encouraging them to do something with their horses
A lot of supporters of Classical dressage think that 'modern dressage' is an abomination
I've seem plenty of high placed dressage horse that looked painfully stiff and restrained so I cant see that as a good comparision for critique
If Cowboy dressage or western dressage really offends you so much then maybe just keep away from it - as long as cruelty isnt involved and people are enjoying doing it then why worry? You enjoy what you do so allow these people the same priviledge.


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## bsms

_There are many contradictions in the arguments against WD. _

_ The back can't be free in a western saddle but Buck and Richard Caldwell's horses move with free swinging backs. There's a lovely video of Richard doing an extended trot working cattle and I can find lots of ranch horses in a long trot that is free and swinging. _​The goal of dressage is much higher than moving freely, although moving freely would certainly be desirable. When my horses trot, I want them in a relaxed, free movement. But I do not want them to do a collected gait, so I don't train them for that.

I would never say that a western saddle prevents a relaxed, easy trot. But ultimately, as more power needs to flow thru the back, the longer tree of the western saddle will become a hindrance. I first noticed this when I learned to canter on Trooper, our very short backed Appy/Arab. It was VERY bouncy. Well, part of that was because I was cantering for the first time. But the 26.5" long Circly Y Arabian saddle - which should have the shortest bars in a western saddle - did me no favors. When I switched to my 22" long Aussie-style saddle, things got much smoother. Same horse, same rider, same inexperience in both - but the shorter saddle didn't 'buck' the way the longer western saddle did.

On a horse with a longer back, that might not be true. But it got me to thinking about the motion of a horse's back. It seems reasonable to me that the more powerful the motion, either because of speed or because of changing balance for a collected gait, the more a long & hard saddle will move and the more it will interfere with the horse.

I do not KNOW this. It is my guess based on how the different saddles I use daily feel under me when I ride. I have also noticed my horses will canter longer by choice when I use the Aussie saddle instead of the western, although I don't know if that is because I use a forward seat with the Aussie saddle, and cannot do that very well with my Circle Y.
_The saddle doesn't allow fine cues with the seat - but reiners and bridle horses work entirely off the seat. _​ I'm not a reiner, but it is certainly possible to design a western saddle that allows easy cuing. I would be curious on how this works out with leg position. One of my unproven theories is that the shoulder-hip-heel vertical line used in dressage is important in part because of the need in dressage to give more frequent and more detailed leg cues than most western riders need.

I know some western saddles - mine, for example - place the lower leg further away from the horse than is true with my English saddles or Australian saddle. And playing around with it, it seems the foot forward position typical in much of western riding is easier in terms of balance but that it would be harder in terms of cuing. Again, I don't ride at a high enough level to know. Watching videos of dressage riders, it seems their feet are more active than most western riders.
_A horse worked above 2nd level collection can't handle extensions and rough terrain - but one of the top endurance horses was known to be working 3rd level. He was top year after year and his rider attributed it to the gymnastic work done in dressage. _​ I can't think of any reason why someone would believe a dressage horse couldn't handle riding in rough terrain. Dressage training is not designed for riding in rough terrain, and there could be saddles and riding styles better suited for riding in rough terrain, but the exercise involved in dressage ought to make a stronger and fitter horse, to a point. Above some point, the work done in dressage would not be NEEDED for riding a horse in rough terrain, but I can't see how it would be HARMFUL.
_A dressage horse is rider dependent - but see above,and my own experience is that my upper level dressage horses were also the most confident and wonderful at picking up new games, be it cross country, trail or playing with cows. Good balance makes horses confident._​ The style of riding used in dressage is very rider-directed. I gather that is true in reining as well. Most western riding seems to emphasize having the horse make more decisions. But horses are adaptable, and could easily be trained to wait for cues in an arena, but pick their own way on a trail. I don't know from personal experience, but I've heard that reining horses can also make good cow horses, if they have the breeding and training to do that as well.

Western dressage is trying to mix different goals at the same time. Eventers do both jumping and dressage, but they use the tack and riding style that matches what they are doing at the moment. They don't jump using a dressage saddle & seat, not do they use a jump saddle and forward seat during the dressage test.

Dressage is a SYSTEM of training to reach a certain end goal. It seems to me that "western dressage" wants to mimic the end goal without doing all the training first. And like any specialized horse sport, dressage has tack and a riding style that ultimately supports its end goal.

Suppose I wanted to take lessons with Mia in dressage. I think it would be reasonable for our early lessons to be done in an Australian saddle, or even a western one - WITH the understanding that eventually I would either need different tack, or I would not progress. I would expect the instructor to immediately jump on my riding position, and tell me to get my heels under my hip and to stop leaning forward. It would be reasonable for her to tape tacks onto my poleys, so I couldn't lean forward without paying a price. I would expect her to teach Mia & I about riding 'on the bit' or 'on the aids'. I could imagine her shouting "Use TWO hands, blast it! And get the slack out of your reins!"

Western riding is not dressage riding, and my *******ized approach is neither western nor dressage. So I would expect her to teach me the DRESSAGE way, rather than saying, "If you like riding with one hand on the reins, go for it!"

Sorry for the long reply. These discussions make me think about how I do my daily riding as well, so I find them pretty interesting. :wink:
​


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## core

jaydee said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYvGckXLQfk
> This child scored 65% in her pony club dressage test (please no comments) and her performance no way resembles someone working at FEI levels - but still called dressage and still giving someone pleasure and encouraging them to do something with their horses


That little kid IS demonstrating the basic concepts of dressage. Plus she rode the test well. She deserved a 65%. She's starting to get the very basics of dressage. The horse is accepting contact with the bit even though it's nose is above vertical. It doesn't resist contact, or avoid it. In the free walk it reaches for the contact. The pony is well balanced and very capable of doing all the movements asked in a fairly well balanced way. It has good clear gaits, is moving forward with energy, and is active off the riders legs. It hind legs step into the print of its front hoof (tracks up). And that little kid is in balance with her horse, uses her aids effectively, and looks like a very competent rider for the level she is at. 

That kid is demonstrating dressage.... 


A WD example: 



I expect a heck of a lot more from a full grown adult that's claiming to specialize in WD. (I'm not finding examples of kids doing WD. I wanted to compare apples to apples, but am not finding video's very well today.)

Horse's hind feet are far short of where the front hoof left the ground. It never tracks up. Closed throat latch, falls in quite a lot the canter in both directions, rider has inconsistent contact with horses mouth (bumbing the horses mouth), rider using excessive rein aids to get downward transition (not seat), rider has romel spurs on. Rider is not using seat aids effectively. Horse looks relaxed and attentive though. It wasn't a terrible ride, but I would've placed the kid a lot higher than the WD guy. And the guy's website say's he's a western dressage TRAINER. 



> I've seem plenty of high placed dressage horse that looked painfully stiff and restrained so I cant see that as a good comparision for critique
> If Cowboy dressage or western dressage really offends you so much then maybe just keep away from it - as long as cruelty isnt involved and people are enjoying doing it then why worry? You enjoy what you do so allow these people the same priviledge


Why would you compare the worst of our sport to the best of your sport? Is that what WD is aiming for? Again, why is WD attempting to copy the worst of our sport? The biggest complaints I hear about dressage are the excessive rein contact. So then WD goes and allows two hands on a curb bit with TIGHT REINS. Way to pick the worst of what we've got and _really _make it their own. 

I can't ignore WD, or "just stay away from it". The WD associations are pushing hard to allow WD at all dressage shows. If we don't let them show at dressage shows, we're closed minded, snobby, ******.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

core said:


> we're closed minded, snobby, ******.



You certainly won't get any disagreement from me, on this. 

The spurs are rowels, not romels. Romels are reins, he's not using those either.


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## deserthorsewoman

And just for the record, rowels are a lot easier on the horse than the traditional English, pointed spur. The more points, the easier. The rowel rolls, not pokes.....


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## jaydee

_


core said:



That little kid IS demonstrating the basic concepts of dressage. Plus she rode the test well. She deserved a 65%. She's starting to get the very basics of dressage. The horse is accepting contact with the bit even though it's nose is above vertical. It doesn't resist contact, or avoid it. In the free walk it reaches for the contact. The pony is well balanced and very capable of doing all the movements asked in a fairly well balanced way. It has good clear gaits, is moving forward with energy, and is active off the riders legs. It hind legs step into the print of its front hoof (tracks up). And that little kid is in balance with her horse, uses her aids effectively, and looks like a very competent rider for the level she is at.

Click to expand...

_


core said:


> _That kid is demonstrating dressage.... _
> 
> _*Why would you compare the worst of our sport to the best of your* *sport*? Is that what WD is aiming for? Again, why is WD attempting to copy the worst of our sport? The biggest complaints I hear about dressage are the excessive rein contact. So then WD goes and allows two hands on a curb bit with TIGHT REINS. Way to pick the worst of what we've got and really make it their own. _
> 
> _I can't ignore WD, or "just stay away from it". The WD associations are pushing hard to allow WD at all dressage shows. If we don't let them show at dressage shows, we're closed minded, snobby, ******.[/_QUOTE]
> I think if you bothered to actually read what I posted - I wasnt criticising the child at all - just trying to point out that at different levels the performance of the horse and rider can be very different but its still called dressage
> Eoropean dressage has been around for years and if you research its history you'll find that its changed a lot over time as its evolved and grown which is exactly what will happen to WD/CD as it finds its footing and standards.
> If you also bothered to read my other posts you would see that I am *NOT* even a western rider so I can hardly claim WD to be my sport. I am british and only lived for 5 years in the US.
> I'm sorry to say this but you are behaving like a snobby ***** - and a very selfish one at that.
> Maybe encouraging western riders to do something different with their horses that would struggle to find a place in adult conventional dressage arenas would be better for the horseworld all around than trying to squash any enthusiasm other people do have just because it somehow doesnt fit in with your high minded ideals


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## longride

Actually the goal of WD is to teach and encourage going through a progressive training program first to reach the goal of a responsive supple horse capable of using the full range of it's body, not trying to copy a picture. As for trainers, announcing on YouTube that you're a WD trainer doesn't make you one. I list myself as one. What makes me one is 30 years teaching and training dressage and using the system successfully to improve a variety of types of horses plus acceptance by the WDAA as such. There are no YouTube videos of me and none yet of my students. I would count someone like Lisa Gerdon as one. Again, a lifetime of dressage work plus being married to a cutting horse trainer. She rode her cutting horse with Gerd Heuschmann this year. 2 western dressage trainers have been accepted into the Phillipe Karl courses coming up next year. I think they will be teaching a correct progression if they aren't already. 

You might want to rethink collection for your trail horse. We use hills to teach passage and collection for a reason. Many a horse becomes much much safer in trappy country when they can reliably collect in the ring. No more charging down hills out of balance. Being able to collect doesn't mean always ridden in collection.


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## core

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Originally Posted by *core*
> _ we're closed minded, snobby, ******._​
> 
> 
> 
> ​You certainly won't get any disagreement from me, on this.
Click to expand...

Thanks for calling me a closed minded, snobby *****, DA. That was really rude. 

..................


I'm creating a subset of reining today. It's called English Reining. It will not follow the same rules as reiners do, nor will we use the same definitions and terminology, and we're not going to use the same tack, or be judged by the same criteria. But we are Reiners and we will show at your shows and earn the same type of scores you do, but using a different criteria set. And gosh darn it, if you don't like it, then you're a snobbish ******.


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## jaydee

core said:


> Thanks for calling me a closed minded, snobby *****, DA. That was really rude.
> 
> ..................
> 
> 
> I'm creating a subset of reining today. It's called English Reining. It will not follow the same rules as reiners do, nor will we use the same definitions and terminology, and we're not going to use the same tack, or be judged by the same criteria. But we are Reiners and we will show at your shows and earn the same type of scores you do, but using a different criteria set. And gosh darn it, if you don't like it, then you're a snobbish ******.


 You know from what I've so far experienced of western riders since we moved here I would say they would welcome you with open arms. When I enquired about some western dressage lessons on a horse I have that can do really nicely at that sort of thing but would never stand a chance in conventional dressage as she doesnt have the length of stride and elevation of the warmbloods that domineer it I was never made to feel inferior because I've never even sat on a western saddle - well other than in a store.
Its a real shame that the way some dressage people do get all superior is having a negative effect on the general all round appeal of the sport - it never used to be like that when I was growing up in England.
When I was looking into boarding my new horse on a local dressage yard so I could use the facilities they originally said a very firm "no" when they though I meant my Irish Draft mare who actually can do an OK low level test but when they realised I meant the new Warmblood I'd bought they called back and suddenly had a stall available (I know for a fact from someone who shoes there that they had 4 empty stalls when I first enquired) - I politely declined the offer
You might not be a snobby ***** but sadly many dressage people are giving that impression


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## longride

BTW, Monty Foreman introduced a "Balanced Ride" saddle back in the 70s that allows the leg to hang in the correct position. Barrel saddles tend to be both light weight and have the stirrup hung further back. There are many many western saddles out there right now that are "cut out" and "balanced" for reasons of competition that were built before the term WD became official. Funny that Barrel Racing, Cutting, Roping and Equitation can have their own specially built western saddle but having one for WD is horrible. I happen to agree that the Circle Y is ridiculous - give me an old Balanced Ride any day.


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## Beling

To me, WD is more of a "different thing" to do than a serious competition. It's surprising that going from letter to letter in a prescribed way can be a challenge if you've never done it.

This pair is one of the best of local cow sorters. They mostly got marked down for tension; but I admit, the judge was not too amused by his non-Warmbloodedness...


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

core said:


> Thanks for calling me a closed minded, snobby *****, DA. That was really rude.
> 
> ..................
> 
> 
> I'm creating a subset of reining today. It's called English Reining. It will not follow the same rules as reiners do, nor will we use the same definitions and terminology, and we're not going to use the same tack, or be judged by the same criteria. But we are Reiners and we will show at your shows and earn the same type of scores you do, but using a different criteria set. And gosh darn it, if you don't like it, then you're a snobbish ******.



I just gave you your own words back. And if you think that was rude, try coming at me with that attitude in person and see what happens. 

People have become so self-righteous, snarky and nasty that new people run for the hills. Lots of people want to learn dressage and few do because of the "snobby *****" attitudes of a lot of DQs. It's kind of funny, I rarely find that in upper level, FEI, riders. 

As a kid I rode hunt seat and then moved up to jumpers. I learned a little dressage to help my horse on handy courses. I discovered that a good dressage base will help any rider and horse to improve and work together better. 

I wanted to learn more, but when I did my research on barns......OMG, I absolutely wasn't going to expose myself to the nasty attitudes of the DQs who were in training at those barns. Mind you, I lived in purely western territory, so even buying a pair of breeches required a 2 hr drive into Burbank, there was absolutely NOTHING in my area. For dressage, I'd have had to drive into Los Angeles to the equestrian center and pay a fortune for lessons. I didn't do it then because I was put off by the people and I'm still put off. 

I'm now a lot older and riding western now, but would still like to learn. I have the money, the horses and the desire but I do not have the patience to deal with a bunch of snot nosed wannabe's who are going to look down on me because I'm not riding a WB, dressage saddle and because I'm not worried about moving up to the FEI levels. 

Most of you who are being so nasty right now will never progress much past levels 2 or 3 yourselves, you'll never have the skill nor the need to properly manage those WBs you all think are so necessary and you'll never be Olympic or WEG riders. Lighten up and ride for the ride and enjoy the journey. Life is too short for all this pseudo intensity and it's really offensive. 

Whether dressage is done in a classic dressage saddle or in a western pleasure saddle is really irrelevant, it's about the training and the ride and the partnership with your horse. I really admire Eitan Beth-Halachmy and he's not the least bit of a snob. He's a beautiful rider and he's trained some awesome horses, I'd love it if I could take some instruction from him. I think he'd change my whole style of riding and I know he'd improve me.


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## Dustbunny

It will be interesting to see how all this develops a couple years from now with breed associations either now including WD classes and those contemplating them.
But one thing is clear...nobody has to compete in any class or any discipline they are not interested in.
This subject certainly has gotten lots of attention and conflicting views.


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## core

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I just gave you your own words back. And if you think that was rude, try coming at me with that attitude in person and see what happens.


I paraphrased what WD tells dressage people.


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## deserthorsewoman

So interesting to follow this thread.
I grew up riding dressage, AS A BASE FOR WHATEVER DIRECTION I WANTED TO TAKE LATER ON. In warmblood country, HANNOVER, OLDENBURG, HOLSTEIN. Long before western riding ever was popular. And I can assure you, dressage in that part of the world is nothing special, especially in the lower levels. It is the base for good, horse friendly riding, at least it was back then. Rollkur, even drawreins were looked down at, see-sawing sent the instructor through the roof. 
What I see nowadays, makes me want to vomit, seriously. Nothing to be proud of. And back then, any horse exposed to that would have thrown the passenger. Period. Now they're being bred to have less brain and be more tolerant. When associations and breeders recognized that there are only so many high class riders. 

I also remember well when the first western stables and trainers popped up. Nobody was stuck up, just because they had an exotic horse or riding style. That changed over time, but I was lucky that I had an instructor who came from Eventing, and had no bias against my crazy OTTB. She was the first European female Working Cowhorse champion, had several stallions who competed truly all-around, and won. 
She always emphasized a solid base. And it was heavily leaning towards what I know as dressage.
Then the trainer I posted the video of. He also was European champion all-around with the dark bay he rides in the video, an Anglo Arab. He saw the possibilities for giving that solid dressage base to any horse, show horse, trail horse, or backyard horse. No matter what breed. And, IMHO, he puts a lot of modern dressage riders to shame with his little Lusitano stallion. 
He has many many clients who, as I said in my previous post, just want to ride better. Who don't care about a label. Who want the lightness and precision, through proper training, tons of work and lots of love and understanding for the horse. 

Seeing the new trend with WD now is just like that. People who don't want to do reining, pleasure or dressage. People who just want the solid, happy horse. No matter what tack they use. 

There is no need to look down at them, no matter what camp others are coming from. Period. Everybody has started somewhere. Nobody was born an Olympic champion. Some had to work on where they are, others were lucky and had parents who could afford upper level horses. 
So why not let people who don't want to change horses go towards another discipline, and who are comfortable in their current tack, have a try and better their horses in the process. When these people reach the upper levels with that horse, my deepest respect. But the ones who think they're something special because they practice an exotic riding style, I can definitely do without.
Keeping an open mind is the key word here.


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## Tigo

I just had to pipe in for another moment. I'm getting the impression that those of us who have talented warmbloods are being labelled as people who don't support those who don't, that we look down on them. Not to toot my own horn, but I have an 18 hand warmblood made of pure talent who will be FEI within 3 years and will go all the way eventually, without a doubt. I got him by chance. Of the girls at my barn, a few of them have warmbloods, some more talented than others, and the other girls have OTTB, appyX of some sort etc... We are a team through and through, doesn't matter who has what horse, or what level they are at. 

I didn't start out on that powerhouse warmblood. I started my dressage on an Appaloosa who was started western. He won many of his dressage classes, and we were second level western regional champions one year. He was training third level before he went lame, which he never came back from. When he went lame, all I had was my pony. My pony every coach always told me was useless, would never amount to anything (except for my current trainer). That pony is incredible and in 3 years went from very basic dressage, to 4th level, under me as I was learning with him. My trainer said that she had never seen a horse train up as fast as he did. That pony was western regional reserve champion at 4th level, western regional champion at FEI Junior (might I add, against professionally trained and proven I-1, I-2 FANCY warmbloods), and won other various championships. 

So, some of us out there on those fancy warmbloods earned that. I support those people starting out in dressage and those who don't have those fancy horses, as I was supported on my less than spectacular horses. I applaud those doing the very best with what they have and especially those who hold their own against those big fancy warmbloods. I do dislike that dressage judging favours those fancy legged warmbloods, whether they were trained correctly or not. It's unfair that people on average horses can't get the scores that those on nicer horses can, I experienced that bias, I know that it sucks. But, quite frankly, I find the dressage community to be warm and supportive where I am. When I jumped, I found the community around here very cliquey and cold, I never fit in and I was judged for having a pony (Especially seeing as I'm nearly 6' tall!) (I'm also sure that this isn't a rule, but that's what I experienced). 

I guess it just doesn't sit well we me that when people use examples of snobby dressage riders they stick in the warmblood label. Remember that not all of us dressage riders are snobby and not all of us that have warmbloods are snobby either. Although, there certainly ARE those people out there as there are in every discipline. 

Sorry about going off on a tangent and rant, but I just wanted to point out that we shouldn't all get painted with the same brush because of some peoples experiences with a few bad apples.


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## bsms

I'd like to remind folks that those of us who don't think highly of WD are NOT out carrying protest signs in front of competitions, or posting videos with made-up abuse a la PETA to drive people away from WD. We are not blocking anyone from doing it, although I wouldn't blame dressage if they didn't want it done during a regular dressage competition.

This thread asked for opinions. It received them. I don't do dressage, or reining, or any horse sports. Poor Mia would absolutely melt if she had to face a bunch of strange horses. Then she would probably challenge them all to a fight, and then turn and run away.

It isn't snobbery to point out flaws in the approach used by a new sport. When I complain that Western Dressage is neither, I do so from the perspective of someone who rides in an Indian-made, American-marketed Aussie saddle on a Navajo blanket of New Zealand wool with an English bit & stirrup leathers using a modified forward seat. I'm not sure I could be more *******ized.

Western Dressage is like seeing a "Ye Olde Englishe Tea Shoppe" in a mall...it is a gimmick. I don't picket stores like that, but if asked, I'll tell folks I buy PG Tips thru the Internet...


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## Muppetgirl

core said:


> Thanks for calling me a closed minded, snobby *****, DA. That was really rude.
> 
> ..................
> 
> 
> I'm creating a subset of reining today. It's called English Reining. It will not follow the same rules as reiners do, nor will we use the same definitions and terminology, and we're not going to use the same tack, or be judged by the same criteria. But we are Reiners and we will show at your shows and earn the same type of scores you do, but using a different criteria set. And gosh darn it, if you don't like it, then you're a snobbish ******.


Perfect.....make sure you enter the classes in your English saddle and slide long and spin real real fast......
Perfect that you'd like to show at the reining shows with that attitude, more people to compete against and beat.....


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## Kayty

Tigo said:


> I just had to pipe in for another moment. I'm getting the impression that those of us who have talented warmbloods are being labelled as people who don't support those who don't, that we look down on them. Not to toot my own horn, but I have an 18 hand warmblood made of pure talent who will be FEI within 3 years and will go all the way eventually, without a doubt. I got him by chance. Of the girls at my barn, a few of them have warmbloods, some more talented than others, and the other girls have OTTB, appyX of some sort etc... We are a team through and through, doesn't matter who has what horse, or what level they are at.
> 
> I didn't start out on that powerhouse warmblood. I started my dressage on an Appaloosa who was started western. He won many of his dressage classes, and we were second level western regional champions one year. He was training third level before he went lame, which he never came back from. When he went lame, all I had was my pony. My pony every coach always told me was useless, would never amount to anything (except for my current trainer). That pony is incredible and in 3 years went from very basic dressage, to 4th level, under me as I was learning with him. My trainer said that she had never seen a horse train up as fast as he did. That pony was western regional reserve champion at 4th level, western regional champion at FEI Junior (might I add, against professionally trained and proven I-1, I-2 FANCY warmbloods), and won other various championships.
> 
> So, some of us out there on those fancy warmbloods earned that. I support those people starting out in dressage and those who don't have those fancy horses, as I was supported on my less than spectacular horses. I applaud those doing the very best with what they have and especially those who hold their own against those big fancy warmbloods. I do dislike that dressage judging favours those fancy legged warmbloods, whether they were trained correctly or not. It's unfair that people on average horses can't get the scores that those on nicer horses can, I experienced that bias, I know that it sucks. But, quite frankly, I find the dressage community to be warm and supportive where I am. When I jumped, I found the community around here very cliquey and cold, I never fit in and I was judged for having a pony (Especially seeing as I'm nearly 6' tall!) (I'm also sure that this isn't a rule, but that's what I experienced).
> 
> I guess it just doesn't sit well we me that when people use examples of snobby dressage riders they stick in the warmblood label. Remember that not all of us dressage riders are snobby and not all of us that have warmbloods are snobby either. Although, there certainly ARE those people out there as there are in every discipline.
> 
> Sorry about going off on a tangent and rant, but I just wanted to point out that we shouldn't all get painted with the same brush because of some peoples experiences with a few bad apples.


Thank you for this post Tigo. I'm also getting tired of the warmblood label getting thrown in. It is assumed that if you have a warmblood, you must be a rich snobby type that is fed everything off a silver platter. 
This is SO not the case. 
I have two warmblood geldings now - I worked my backside off the buy them, I go without everything, I rarely go out with friends, I rarely buy myself any new clothes or new things for my house. 
Before I purchased my boys, I was riding, training and competing on appys, QH's, OTTB's, welsh ponies etc etc etc. I worked very hard, I got bucked off a lot, I rode 6-7 days a week and took every opportunity I could. 

So please, do NOT tell me that I am a snob for having a warmblood. I have sacrificed a lot to have them - and no, I'm not rich. I was a receptionist up until recently when I lost my job due to budget cuts. I'm not in the process of trying to get into the police academy and into the prisons as a corrective officer. Not a surgeon, doctor, dentist, etc. Just a plain old normal blue collar worker. 

I have NEVER looked down any any of my fellow riders for not having a warmblood - because that's how I started out. And if someone doesn't WANT a warmblood, then that's great - they're saving a lot of money!!!!


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## core

Muppetgirl said:


> Perfect.....make sure you enter the classes in your English saddle and slide long and spin real real fast......
> Perfect that you'd like to show at the reining shows with that attitude, more people to compete against and beat.....


That's my point Muppetgirl. 

WD aren't tested on the basics of dressage training. They don't have the same requirements as dressage riders do. The very things that make dressage difficult are left out of WD tests. The very things that will allow you to progress past training level, are not tested for in WD. Its like a reiner being allowed to stop through the trot rather than slide because the tack is different.

My question is, would you whole heartedly accept an english reiner that isn't required to do a sliding stop as defined by western reiners? Would you be proud to call them reiners, and welcome them into your shows without hesitation? I realize this is hypothetical, but please, try to see it from a different perspective for a moment. 

If WD riders want to learn dressage, I wouldn't hesitate to support them. But I want all dressage (regardless of tack or org name) to be tested by the same requirements that are necessary to prove that the horse is being gymnastically developed correctly to continue forward with dressage. Without that, they're just doing patterns, and it's not kind to them to build up a false reality of success when that same ride would've garnered them a failing score if tested on the same criteria an english dressage rider is tested on. Would you rather people lied to you and said you were doing great when you're not, or tell you when you're off base so you would have a chance to improve? 

If I earn a title or score, I want to earn it because I rocked it. Not because the bar was lowered. And that's what it seems like with WD. They are given a lowered criteria of passing, and then patted on the back for being good. All that will do is block them from actually achieving the goals they set out to accomplish. The WD riders I've seen will never make it past first level the way they are going right now. Why would you set them up for that kind of failure? Once they figure out that they were being tested on a scale that wasn't honestly evaluating their horses development, then they'll either have to go back to square one and re-learn everything they thought they knew about dressage, or they'll quit feeling bitter and deceived. Should we let happen? Or are you happy to allow that because you feel that WD riders are only there to have some fun with it, and will never be serious about learning dressage? 

What if they are serious about learning dressage? Is it fair to them to pay good money for a score that lies to them about where the horse and rider are in their training?


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## jaydee

*Core* - You have the most illogical way of thinking.
I feel sorry for people like Kayty and anyone else who's worked hard to get their horses and then get tarnished by the same brush as you because you create that idea of a warmblood riding dressage queen that thinks they have the god given right to dictate what other people can do under the 'umbrella' of dressage that deserves the label thats getting stuck on you right now.
These WD people dont want to do european dressage, they want to walk, jog lope and ride western style and improve themselves and be the best they can at what they do - not at what you do. There is no way WD can be compared to european dressage so why try to do that.
Regardless of what you and others feel it is going to grow and have a place in western riding because it fills an empty gap.
I also grew up in a country (UK) where basic dressage is taught as normal in riding schools, pony club etc because it is the foundation of all our showing classes - which is where Charlotte Dujardin began her career with horses. It isnt a big deal over there and 'shock horror gasp' people still compete in lower level dressage classes in tweed jackets and general purpose saddles
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZzs7bLyMh8
Look at his and see how dressage has evolved
I think everyone would do well to encourage this to evolve and stop behaving like spoilt brats throwing a temper tantrum over something new


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## Dustbunny

Hmmmm...I think I'll go buy a jackass and advocate Donkey Dressage.


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## longride

Core - where do you get the idea that WD tests aren't asking the same things of the horse as tests at the same level in regular dressage? Cowboy Dressage, please note, is a different animal, which makes a point of the differences by taking the focus from gymnastics and putting it on "smoothness". WD as put forward by WDAA is carefully aligned with the training pyramid. Those are the tests used by the Morgan division of the USEF and most frequently offered at dressage schooling shows. The requirements at Primary level are the same as those at Training Level. The wording isn't exactly the same but is so close I can't find the difference in meaning. Progressively higher levels will be added, starting with the equivalent of 1st and 2nd level tests next year. If different movements are in the tests, they will still be recognized exercises at the appropriate level and the tests will be changed and improved regularly, just as national tests are in every country. The people writing them have studied not just the tests of the US, but those of the UK, Germany and other countries. I particularly like those of the UK - lots of emphasis on suppleness and constantly changing balance at 1st and 2nd level. They fit well with the traditional size and work patterns of the western horse. 

The judging guidelines can be ambiguous, with references to slower tempos and less suspension. They were based on the idea that the horses would be breeds that don't have natural suspension, but the breed shows for Arabians, Friesians and PRE have already adopted WD. They also counteract the perceived tendency in modern judging to reward tension, over tempo work and gait qualities that are simply a product of breeding vs qualities improved by training. The "bias" that has been mentioned even by those with WBs. Those who have been through the L program know that they too try to counter those judging mistakes during the training, but too often the eye is trained by what is seen in the ring. The most difficult part of putting "L" programs together is finding horses to demonstrate truly correct work at the lower levels. 

We have two problems right now showing what WD is. Many of the competitors may have studied dressage, but they are showing horses who haven't, and many of the judges are "L" judges who rode Western Pleasure at some point in their lives and think they should throw out all their "L" training and judge WP horses. Then there is that two handed on the curb thing which I really wish would go away, but I think the Morgan folks would have a fit.


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## bsms

"These WD people don't want to do european dressage, they want to walk, jog lope and ride western style and improve themselves and be the best they can at what they do - not at what you do."

Great! Just don't call it dressage. And preferably, don't call it western, or imply that western riders can improve their riding by learning your new game.

All sports are games. A game like gymnastics is very demanding, and someone playing that game will need to develop an excellent body to progress, but it remains a game. So let me use an analogy with a different set of games: T-ball and baseball. 

T-ball is a 'sport' based on baseball. Baseball is too difficult for young kids, apparently, although I remember learning it at about 5. But it is tough to hit a ball thrown at you, and it gets frustrating to keep missing. As I learned in my teens, I have a lazy left eye and don't see in 3 dimensions without glasses, so baseball and basketball remained pretty frustrating for me for a long time. 

So T-ball puts the ball on a post, and lets little kids hit that instead.










This is fine by me. It isn't called baseball, and it is meant as an introduction to the real game. Lots of T-ball games don't even keep score, and that is OK too. 

But suppose t-ball called itself baseball, and encouraged adults to play t-ball as a substitute for baseball. Suppose they called it "New Baseball". And suppose they wanted major league baseball to open up their baseball games to "New Baseball". Suppose they then criticized anyone who rejected New Baseball as a Baseball snob who clings to pitching records and who worships Sandy Koufax and who is mean to the New Baseball crowd. Suppose they called New Baseball "Baseball when a T suits your style".

Would those who loved baseball get a bit upset? Probably. Would those of us who watch baseball sometimes but who have no talent for it still find it odd to see a grown up man hitting a ball off of a T? Probably.

Western Dressage strikes me as T-ball for horses and riders. It doesn't use a western approach to riding, although it seems willing to claim that western riders can improve their horses and their riding skills by participating. It isn't dressage, either, although it uses the prestige "European Dressage" has gained over the years to sell what it does. I think it is completely reasonable for western and dressage enthusiasts to respond with "WTF,O".

And if that makes me a "Warmblood Dressage Snob', then I want an alert posted on the Dressage sub-forum that bsms, who self-banned himself from the Dressage sub-forum, has become a WDS. Might be a tough sell, though...my spotted warmblood is 14.2, weighs 850 and wonders why he sometimes has to carry someone with no fashion sense:


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## core

jaydee said:


> *Core* - You have the most illogical way of thinking.
> I feel sorry for people like Kayty and anyone else who's worked hard to get their horses and then get tarnished by the same brush as you because you create that idea of a warmblood riding dressage queen that thinks they have the *god given right to dictate what other people can do under the 'umbrella' of dressage *that deserves the label thats getting stuck on you right now.


My USA given right (the ones I fought for) allows me the freedom to express that I don't agree with an organization adopting the label dressage while ignoring the basics of dressage. If WDA's goal is to NOT be dressage, then no, they should not call it dressage. 



> These* WD people dont want to do european dressage*, they want to walk, jog lope and ride western style and improve themselves and be the best they can at what they do - not at what you do.


I understand what you're saying. Even the WDA states that the goal of WD is NOT to do dressage. WDA say's "It is not the goal of Western Dressage to create western horses that compete in open dressage but to create *better western horses and riders* through the use and principles of dressage."

What I'm saying is that it makes no sense:


It's called Western *Dressage. *
They hold competitions at _Dressage _shows.
In _Dressage _arenas.
With licensed _Dressage _judges.
And score sheets that mimic _Dressage _score sheets,
With movements copied from _Dressage _tests.





> There is no way WD can be compared to european dressage so why try to do that.
> 
> 
> 
> No argument here.
> 
> 
> 
> Regardless of what you and others feel it is going to grow and have a place in western riding because it fills an empty gap.
> I also grew up in a country (UK) where basic dressage is taught as normal in riding schools, pony club etc because it is the foundation of all our showing classes - which is where Charlotte Dujardin began her career with horses. It isnt a big deal over there and 'shock horror gasp' people still compete in lower level dressage classes in tweed jackets and general purpose saddles
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZzs7bLyMh8
> Look at his and see how dressage has evolved
Click to expand...

I've read up on classical dressage for a couple of years now. I know it's history. Interesting video though. Thanks.




> I think everyone would do well to encourage this to evolve and stop behaving like *spoilt brats throwing a temper tantrum *over something new


I haven't called you a spoiled brat, or closed minded *****, or any of the other words some of the people on this forum have called me. I've tried to explain myself, and my issues with WD in as civilized a manner as possible. The only time I even mentioned the word ***** was in regards to how I interpreted WD felt about dressage people. I have never called you, nor WD, ******, or any other derogatory term. And although you have a talent for name calling, I'm still finding it hard to see your point of view on this matter. Maybe you could try explaining it to me without the derogatory terms? 

Btw, I own a paint mutt pony. No warmbloods.


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## deserthorsewoman

Strange thing is,  I don't see straight western folks complain nearly as much as dressage folks do about WD....I wonder why......
Repeating my earlier statement, dressage is the base for whatever direction a rider chooses to go later on. Saying that, I don't see why anybody should have the right to ban WD from dressage arenas, judging system, judges and movements. It is seen as a standard. And its proven to improve horse and rider, if any discipline, where im from TB's in race training are ridden dressage during off season. And it does them a heap of good. 

So why is it such a big problem having WD at a dressage show, in an extra, separate class, but with the same judges? 
Again, repeating myself......an open mind is key factor. 

By refusing to let them be a part of a dressage show, where they don't even compete against you all, you make yourself out as snobby and stuck up. Sorry. 

Maybe the name Western Dressage is a bit threatening or misleading, but until somebody comes up with a better one, without belittling, it'll stick.


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## bsms

"Even the WDA states that the goal of WD is NOT to do dressage. WDA say's *"It is not the goal of Western Dressage to create western horses that compete in open dressage but to create better western horses and riders through the use and principles of dressage.*"

In addition to that quote, there is this:

"*The Western Dressage Association® of America (WDAA) was organized to provide western riders and horses with an educational program which incorporates the principles of lightness into a whole new way of thinking about riding western. Western Dressage helps a rider to improve the horse’s balance, cadence and carriage.*"

FAQ

If Western Dressage wants folks to stop taking offense, then maybe they ought to stop giving offense. Maybe they should call it a way to play with your horses, rather than tell western riders it is a way to "improve" their horse, while using the prestige of 'European dressage' to give them credibility. There are a LOT of western disciplines that take a balanced, agile, fast horse very seriously. And most western disciplines are already very open to 'European dressage' as a way of cross training, and a way of working on specific problems.​


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## deserthorsewoman

Dressage is not supposed to be prestige.....it is the sound base for horse friendly riding. 
Prestige comes with the attitude of some (note: I said "some";-)) people who think having the exotic warmblood and a dressage outfit makes them elite. 
Every horse will benefit from basic dressage training, from the TB racer, through gaited horses, all the way down to the trailhorse.


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## core

longride said:


> Core - where do you get the idea that WD tests aren't asking the same things of the horse as tests at the same level in regular dressage? Cowboy Dressage, please note, is a different animal, which makes a point of the differences by taking the focus from gymnastics and putting it on "smoothness".
> 
> 
> 
> When the tests allow the horse to go at a much slower pace (jog/lope), it decreases the difficulty of the test. A 20m circle at a jog allows the horse to go slow enough that it can balance itself and the rider fairly easily. Once you start asking the horse to move forward, ask it to step under and track up, then it becomes far more difficult for the horse to stay balanced with a rider on it's back. The difficulty also increase with the transitions. A transition from a jog to a canter is easier to maintain balance, than a working trot where the horse has to not only shift it's weight to it's hind end, but also continue to move with energy and impulsion into a canter.
> 
> 
> Also, any loss of balance at the working gait is far more visible to a judge then a momentary loss of balance at a jog.
> 
> 
> The working gaits also test the rider. Even though Dressage is mostly about developing the horse, they still incorporate the score of the rider into your overall score. It is a heck of a lot harder to stay in balance with your horse when you've got a big, ground covering trot, then it is to sit on a short strided, small, jog trot. The WDA specifically says to use the jog in order to "maintain rideability". It is easier to ride the jog then a working trot.
> 
> 
> 
> WD as put forward by WDAA is carefully aligned with the training pyramid. Those are the tests used by the Morgan division of the USEF and most frequently offered at dressage schooling shows. The requirements at Primary level are the same as those at Training Level. The wording isn't exactly the same but is so close I can't find the difference in meaning.
Click to expand...

I agree. The tests are pretty comparable as far as what is asked for. It would be clearer if the WD tests also included the "purpose" section like dressage tests do. 



> Progressively higher levels will be added, starting with the equivalent of 1st and 2nd level tests next year. If different movements are in the tests, they will still be recognized exercises at the appropriate level and the tests will be changed and improved regularly, just as national tests are in every country. The people writing them have studied not just the tests of the US, but those of the UK, Germany and other countries. I particularly like those of the UK - lots of emphasis on suppleness and constantly changing balance at 1st and 2nd level. They fit well with the traditional size and work patterns of the western horse.
> 
> 
> 
> Second level is where collection begins to be tested. If up until this point, the horse has really never been asked to step under itself (jog trot has smalle steps that don't reach the hoof print of the front hoof) how can the horse develop collection? Without workign the horse in away that would encourage it to step up and under, then you don't build the muscles required to create collection. How will WD get any farther than First level with the jog/lope gaits? I'm not bashing them.. I just don't understand how it's possible. Lateral exercises help, but you also have to have forward with some get up and go to make those exercises effective at building the horse to carry itself correctly.
> 
> Take haunches-in for example. In the dressage test, I have to show a haunches-in at a good working trot, no loss of balance, no decrease in tempo. If I decrease the tempo, or slow the gait, then I've made the movement easier and am penalized for it. Keeping the good working trot encourages the horse to step further under itself to maintain it's balance, and will strengthen the horses abdomen and inside hind.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The judging guidelines *can be ambiguous, with references to slower tempos and less suspension.* They were based on the idea that the horses would be breeds that don't have natural suspension,
> 
> 
> 
> I interpreted that differently. I've read through the WDA's rules and definitions, and what they were talking about was the rideability of the horse. That the slower gaits would allow the western rider to sit the trot easier. Not that the breed of horses being competed couldn't be improved upon so that they could show better impulsion and suspension. That was the whole point of dressage... the improvement of the horses natural gaits. It seems to me that all this does (specifing the shorter stride and allowing the horse to work without tracking up) is create a false sense of accomplishment (not working toward developing the purity of the gaits).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but the breed shows for Arabians, Friesians and PRE have already adopted WD. They also counteract the perceived tendency in modern judging to reward tension, over tempo work and gait qualities that are simply a product of breeding vs qualities improved by training. The "bias" that has been mentioned even by those with WBs. Those who have been through the L program know that they too try to counter those judging mistakes during the training, but too often the eye is trained by what is seen in the ring. The most difficult part of putting "L" programs together is finding horses to demonstrate truly correct work at the lower levels.
> 
> We have two problems right now showing what WD is. Many of the competitors may have studied dressage, but they are showing horses who haven't, and many of the judges are "L" judges who rode Western Pleasure at some point in their lives and think they should throw out all their "L" training and judge WP horses. Then there is that two handed on the curb thing which I really wish would go away, but I think the Morgan folks would have a fit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> With the slower tempos and less suspension, how can you capture the energy of the hind end to create collection? And how can you evaluate whether the training level horse is correctly developing toward collection if you don't ask to see it on the tests? This is what's really hanging me up with WD. Imo, it sets them up for failure, and I don't think that's fair to do to anyone.
> 
> You make excellent points. Very well laid out. I do agree with you on what you're saying. And I do feel that WD could be an awesome off shoot that would encourage a broader range of people to enjoy a sport I love.. I'm just concerned that good intentions are going to cause a lot of people to end up with the false impression that dressage can be trained by slowing the gaits down. Unless it's possible to develop the athletic ability of the horse in a way that I'm not aware of (quite possible), then I'm not sure I agree with how WD is going about this.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Saddlebag

It's the high minded judges who began placing western horses with rolkhur. Then it takes off.


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## jaydee

core said:


> What I'm saying is that it makes no sense:
> 
> 
> It's called Western *Dressage. *
> They hold competitions at _Dressage _shows.
> In _Dressage _arenas.
> With licensed _Dressage _judges.
> And score sheets that mimic _Dressage _score sheets,
> With movements copied from _Dressage _tests.
> I think the main reason that they are being welcomed into Dressage arenas and Shows by conventional dressage organisers is that its a way of increasing much needed revenue. If the US Dressage scene is anything like the UK one its struggling to balance the books as entry numbers reduce. There have been lots of throwing around of ideas - for eg something that is judged on the riders style or having riders do tests on strange horses in order to create more classes and encourage people to come into the sport and not feel intimidated by it.
> If the WD can get money from entry fees, bums on seats, people spending cash with food vendors and trade stands this will all benefit the arenas and in some cases keep them open so will be a boost for the sport in general
> If anyone finds the term dressage so offensive then maybe rather than expressing it here to just a handful of people - if they feel so strongly about it they could write or email the governing body and complain and make suggestions for a new name.
> I actually see this sport as something that has the potential to increase the sales of good quality quarter horses and Morgan horses - your countries own unique breeds - to people who are keen to do something that isnt reining or WP or any of the other current options out there but can be challenging and require skills that can be built on.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSLpyfzihts&feature=g-user-c
> This is video clip I've put up before. People flock to Bucks clinics - and others like him. These are the very people who will want somewhere to showcase what they learn - WD is the perfect place for that to happen


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## SouthernTrails

.

Mod Note:

Let's keep the name calling of each other out of this discussion, please act like adults 

Adults do not look good sitting in time out :lol:


.


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## Reno Bay

People can call it what they want and do it how they want, as long as it's not harmful to the horses. I ride classical dressage. I don't give two hoots about this whole WD thing. It won't ever have any effect on me or my horse personally.

(on that warmblood tirade - I love all horses, what jacks _me_ up is when those bad apples who _are_ snobs with warmbloods think their horses are so much better than other breeds who have the same training and talent..."Oh what a gorgeous horse you have, and he moves beautifully. Is he a warmblood?" "Thank you. No, he's a Thoroughbred." "Oh...nevermind." What?)


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## Tigo

deserthorsewoman said:


> Prestige comes with the attitude of some (note: I said "some";-)) people who think having the exotic warmblood and a dressage outfit makes them elite.


Thank you for the note, Desert :lol:


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## deserthorsewoman

Tigo, I'm very well aware that there are folks who ride dressage who know that a good horse is a good horse is a good horse, regardless of breed. Seeing where this thread went, I felt I had to make it clear, hence the note ;-)


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## core

jaydee said:


> <snipped>
> There have been lots of throwing around of ideas - for eg something that is judged on the riders style or having riders do tests on strange horses in order to create more classes and encourage people to come into the sport and not feel intimidated by it.


An offshoot of your comment: 
They created the "Dressage Rider Tests" to level the playing field for people who don't own fancy horses. It still tests the dressage training of the horse, but the focus is on the rider and how the horse is ridden. 

If this could be ridden in western tack, I'd be all for it! Not even a hesitation. We can ride it in a jump saddle, why not a western saddle too? It would still be dressage, but would allow the average horse to shine. I'd fight to allow western tack in those tests.


p.s. -- I didn't flag anyone's post.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## longride

Slower tempos - there are whole schools of dressage that believe that to get proper collection, the horse must be moving at a slower tempo so the joints have time to compress then rebound. When my TB was beginning collection I was told to encourage (not force) him to work at "the longest possible stride at the slowest possible tempo" in preparation for the work ahead. Any dancer can tell you it's harder to move slowly than to move fast. It requires a lot of energy.This does require the shift of weight to the hind quarters, or slowing down just increases the beating the pasterns take. What WP horses do isn't collected just because it's slow. If you watch a WP horse the joints of the hind legs don't all bend. Sometimes it looks like none do. That plus the low head carriage shown in some breed shows leads to suspensory injuries. 

What a judge should be looking for as the work progresses in an increasing ability to bend the joints of the hind legs - all of them. That results in more power to push up, which creates correct suspension, which is quite a different quality than just bouncing off the ground. The passagey trots so oohed and ahhed over today used to be considered incorrect and I don't think they should be a goal for a WD horse..


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## deserthorsewoman

core said:


> An offshoot of your comment:
> They created the "Dressage Rider Tests" to level the playing field for people who don't own fancy horses. It still tests the dressage training of the horse, but the focus is on the rider and how the horse is ridden.
> 
> If this could be ridden in western tack, I'd be all for it! Not even a hesitation. We can ride it in a jump saddle, why not a western saddle too? It would still be dressage, but would allow the average horse to shine. I'd fight to allow western tack in those tests.
> 
> 
> p.s. -- I didn't flag anyone's post.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The dressage rider tests have been around forever in Germany. Called just that, riders test. The equivalent in jumping is style jumping, where only the rider 's correct style is judged. 
We have Reiterpruefung=rider test
E-Dressur = entry level dressage
A-Dressur= beginner dressage
L-Dressur= easy
M-Dressur= medium
S-Dressur= hard
Intermediaire
Grand Prix
Grand Prix Special

I don't see why WD, or whatever one wants to call it, couldn't move up in these levels. Buck does just that, calling it the making of a bridle horse...


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## jaydee

core said:


> An offshoot of your comment:
> They created the "Dressage Rider Tests" to level the playing field for people who don't own fancy horses. It still tests the dressage training of the horse, but the focus is on the rider and how the horse is ridden.
> 
> If this could be ridden in western tack, I'd be all for it! Not even a hesitation. We can ride it in a jump saddle, why not a western saddle too? It would still be dressage, but would allow the average horse to shine. I'd fight to allow western tack in those tests.
> 
> 
> p.s. -- I didn't flag anyone's post.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Anything that promotes horseriding and stimulates the industry is good for everyone. As long as judges arent biased and are able to see each case individually based on type then it could work - ability shouldnt really be so affected by tack or clothing in something like that although anything that makes for more comfort or control will have an effect on performance.
Maybe classes where only snaffle bits are allowed.
No reason to drop standards - everyone has to start somewhere and lots of people stay in a comfort zone and dont want to go any higher but they can still strive to be the best at what they do
We have championship Shows in the UK where different breeds and different styles are all judged together taking the best from each class - same as they do at Dog Shows for the championship class.


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## Muppetgirl

Perhaps it just needs a different name.....


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## jaydee

Muppetgirl said:


> Perhaps it just needs a different name.....


 Maybe it does - like I said in my other post, when you feel strongly about something then you have a duty to yourself to do something about it.
They have a governing body with an email address so why not tell them why you feel it needs a different name and suggest alternatives
Seriously - not me being sarcastic here. This is something people should do if something doesnt feel right to them - it might not make a difference but at least you'll know you had your say to the people that have the ability to change things


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## Muppetgirl

Ok....let's email them a link to this thread.....because I don't have the energy to re-read all of this and condense it all down into an email.....


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## jaydee

Muppetgirl said:


> Ok....let's email them a link to this thread.....because I don't have the energy to re-read all of this and condense it all down into an email.....


 You could though it did get a bit 'iffy' in places!!!
I think just lots of short individual emails from everyone who feels strongly about it would have more impact, sometimes new ventures like this profit from input - if no one says anything then they just carry on regardless in ignorance of things that could make a difference.


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## Dustbunny

Amen, sister!!!!!!!!


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## Dustbunny

Oh for Pet's sake...the Amen, Sister comment was fo Jaydee's comment #80.
I'm getting lost on al these pages...just wandering from here to there. I'll get the hang if it someday.


----------



## core

longride said:


> Slower tempos - there are whole schools of dressage that believe that to get proper collection, the horse must be moving at a slower tempo so the joints have time to compress then rebound.
> 
> <snipped>
> 
> The passagey trots so oohed and ahhed over today used to be considered incorrect and I don't think they should be a goal for a WD horse..


I get what you're saying LongRide, but I'm positive you didn't remove the impulsion/energy from your horse prior to, or during, your work on collection. You wouldn't have made it to where you're at if you had. I'm not seeing impulsion or energy from the WD currently being ridden. And I don't think they can ever achieve collection by slowing the horse to a jog. It removes the energy, the impulsion, from the gait. 

Impulsion as defined by the USDF: Thrust, releasing of the energy stored by engagement. The energy is transmitted through a back that is free from negative tension and is manifested in the horse’s elastic, whole-body movement

The biggest issue with dressage is that you need all the components of the pyramid in order to develop the horse correctly. You can't remove impulsion and ever get to collection... You want relaxation, suppleness, contact, straightness, and impulsion in the training level horse. Of course these will be at very low levels compared to a higher level horse, but the idea has to be there. Then each part is improved upon as you continue to train the dressage horse. The straightness gets better, the contact becomes more consistent, the suppleness increases, etc. Same with impulsion... you start with it at a level your horse can do, and build on it. Asking for a little more, and a little more, each time horse is physically capable of giving more. But you can't ever get collection without impulsion, contact, suppleness, straightness, rhythm.. they aren't independent of each other. You can't remove impulsion. 

From USDF:


> The basics form the correct foundation of the progressive training of the horse, independent of the execution of specific test movements. The basics include: pure rhythm with suitable tempo; relaxation/ suppleness/ elasticity/looseness; correct contact/connection; *impulsion*, straightness, and longitudinal balance suitable to the level and exercise–in other words, all criteria of the Pyramid of Training/Training Scale.


I don't see impulsion in the WD that is currently being ridden. And I don't see a way that those horse/rider combo's could ever achieve anything resembling collection as defined by USDF. At that point, they're just doing a pattern class on a well trained western horse. But it's not dressage. You can't leave part of the training scale out, and assume you'll get a dressage horse. That's why so many dressage riders can't make it past Second level. Yet, somehow, western dressage will achieve what a great many dressage riders cannot, all while ignoring a basic element in the training scale....? It's not possible.


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## franknbeans

Quote from pg 5.....post from *Core*

Here are my issues with WD. Bad dressage training is rewarded in WD. If you want to train your western horse in dressage, with a western saddle. Go for it. I would be glad to support you 100% in your efforts. As long as you are honestly attempting to embrace the core concepts of dressage, *and to create a happier, more supple horse* that uses it's body more effectively, then I say go for it.

Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding/western-dressage-thoughts-144228/page5/#ixzz2DEqCv0Mk

This really sticks in my craw, and admittedly, I have not read many of the posts after-did skim over most of them. What gives you the idea that dressage horses are "happier and more supple" than other horses? Because you think they are? I hate to tell you, but there are MANY happy horses out there doing other things that they love, and there are also many horses that are supple who don't do dressage. This statement by you, Core, goes right back to the elitist attitude of many dressage folks. 

It is also called WESTERN dressage. Put the emphasis on the western, and it makes it can be a seperate class, just as ENGLISH reining could be. Have a ball doing the stops and spins in an English saddle, BTW....some of us would pay to see that one. Sort of why they have different classes in many shows....diffferent levels, judged differently.....or, perhaps look at simple pleasure classes. In Morgan shows, "hunter pleasure" is NOT AT ALL like the "hunter pleasure" I grew up with in the traditional hunter shows. Does that mean it is wrong? Nope-just different. Get over yourself. You do not own the rights to the word "Dressage".


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## gypsygirl

have any of you guys commenting actually seen or ridden western dressage at a show or are you just going off of youtube videos ?

i think western dressage is awesome ! it was very fun for me and my horse this summer at shows. i have talked to many dressage judges about western dressage and they tell me they look at the horse and judge them just like an english horse, they are looking for the same things. 

it may be called WESTERN dressage, but its DRESSAGE judges, just keep that in mind =]


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## core

franknbeans said:


> Quote from pg 5.....post from *Core*
> 
> Here are my issues with WD. Bad dressage training is rewarded in WD. If you want to train your western horse in dressage, with a western saddle. Go for it. I would be glad to support you 100% in your efforts. As long as you are honestly attempting to embrace the core concepts of dressage, *and to create a happier, more supple horse* that uses it's body more effectively, then I say go for it.
> 
> Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding/western-dressage-thoughts-144228/page5/#ixzz2DEqCv0Mk
> 
> This really sticks in my craw, and admittedly, I have not read many of the posts after-did skim over most of them. What gives you the idea that dressage horses are "happier and more supple" than other horses? Because you think they are? I hate to tell you, but there are MANY happy horses out there doing other things that they love, and there are also many horses that are supple who don't do dressage. This statement by you, Core, goes right back to the elitist attitude of many dressage folks.
> 
> It is also called WESTERN dressage. Put the emphasis on the western, and it makes it can be a separate class, just as ENGLISH reining could be. Have a ball doing the stops and spins in an English saddle, BTW....some of us would pay to see that one. Sort of why they have different classes in many shows....diffferent levels, judged differently.....or, perhaps look at simple pleasure classes. In Morgan shows, "hunter pleasure" is NOT AT ALL like the "hunter pleasure" I grew up with in the traditional hunter shows. Does that mean it is wrong? Nope-just different. Get over yourself. You do not own the rights to the word "Dressage".


Franknbeans, I'm sorry for not being very clear with what I was saying. What I was trying to say is that a _correctly_ trained dressage horse is happier than an _incorrectly _trained dressage horse. If WD wants to be an offshoot of dressage, but is not currently embracing the correct basics, then you face the risk of creating a confused/frustrated horse when you only incorporate portions of the dressage scale yet expect the horse to continue to move up the levels (WD said they were creating higher level tests). 

It wasn't a statement that dressage is better than anyone else. I did _NOT_ mean it in that way. Only that there's good and bad in dressage (I'm only talking about dressage) that can result in either a happy and confident horse, or a cranky, unhappy horse with a very frustrated rider. 



About your last paragraph... If anyone wishes to label themselves with the term dressage, or hunter, or reiner, then they should not be a completely different discipline in my opinion. This is just my opinion. Taking a certain disciplines name and altering it to be something else creates confusion.


Side note: can you guys try, maybe, to not take every single thing I posted so personally? I don't hate WD. I don't hate western people. I would help anyone wanting to learn dressage, or wanting to incorporate whatever bits of dressage that they want to into their training. I'm only stating that labeling WD as "Dressage" is fricking confusing the crap outta me since WD doesn't appear to want to do dressage but wants to do a variation of some of the parts of dressage (in their own way). That's fine.. I don't care. I'm saying the name is confusing. 

Also, I find a dressage saddle to be the most secure, easiest to stay on, type saddle in the world. I would welcome the opportunity to demonstrate my ability to stay on a reiner doing a spin with my dressage saddle. If you're offering, I'd love to give it a try!  I don't have an issue staying on horse that decides to suddenly do a 180 at warp speed because the cat jumped out of the rafters in front of it. I know it's not the same... just saying I don't fall off at the drop of a hat like you're implying.


----------



## franknbeans

core said:


> Franknbeans, I'm sorry for not being very clear with what I was saying. What I was trying to say is that a _correctly_ trained dressage horse is happier than an _incorrectly _trained dressage horse. If WD wants to be an offshoot of dressage, but is not currently embracing the correct basics, then you face the risk of creating a confused/frustrated horse when you only incorporate portions of the dressage scale yet expect the horse to continue to move up the levels (WD said they were creating higher level tests).
> *I would argue that a correctlytrained horse in ANY discipline is happier than an incorrectly trained one. That is certainly NOT exclusive to Dressage.Even tho it seems that dressage riders prefer to think their horses are the only ones who are happy, supple, (choose an adjective.....)*_
> 
> It wasn't a statement that dressage is better than anyone else. I did NOT mean it in that way. Only that there's good and bad in dressage (I'm only talking about dressage) that can result in either a happy and confident horse, or a cranky, unhappy horse with a very frustrated rider. *Again-saome is true in ANY discpline.*
> 
> 
> 
> About your last paragraph... If anyone wishes to label themselves with the term dressage, or hunter, or reiner, then they should not be a completely different discipline in my opinion. This is just my opinion. Taking a certain disciplines name and altering it to be something else creates confusion. *So, using my example of a pleasure horse-they should all be the same? Certainly they are not. And I do realize that they are also not judged by the same judges.*
> 
> 
> Side note: can you guys try, maybe, to not take every single thing I posted so personally? I don't hate WD. I don't hate western people. I would help anyone wanting to learn dressage, or wanting to incorporate whatever bits of dressage that they want to into their training. I'm only stating that labeling WD as "Dressage" is fricking confusing the crap outta me since WD doesn't appear to want to do dressage but wants to do a variation of some of the parts of dressage (in their own way). That's fine.. I don't care. I'm saying the name is confusing. *Same with "pleasure", no? There are many kinds, and if you take it our of context it can mean different things to different riders. It IS confusing, when taken out of context, as are most things.*
> 
> Also, I find a dressage saddle to be the most secure, easiest to stay on, type saddle in the world. I would welcome the opportunity to demonstrate my ability to stay on a reiner doing a spin with my dressage saddle. If you're offering, I'd love to give it a try!  I don't have an issue staying on horse that decides to suddenly do a 180 at warp speed because the cat jumped out of the rafters in front of it. I know it's not the same... just saying I don't fall off at the drop of a hat like you're implying._


_ *Noone said you do. All I am saying is good luck with that. A reiner is not going to stop at a 180.*_


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## bsms

I don't see where *cor*e is complaining about reiners or western riding. If she is arguing that dressage is required for a happy, athletic horse, I've missed it. She is arguing what I would agree with - that dressage is designed to get a horse to be ridden in collected gaits, and that if you skip the foundation that dressage rests on, you will never get to the collected gaits that dressage is designed to create.

Outside of dressage, almost no one desired sustained, collected gaits. The 'collection' used in most riding is not a collected gait. It is a temporary shifting of balance to prepare for something (a jump) or to turn quickly and have power coming out of the turn (barrel racing, cutting). Littauer called that 'gathering', but most riding calls it collection.

I've been accused on many threads of hating dressage, because I deny that dressage is the basis of all good riding. I don't think *core* has argued that. If I understand her correctly, she agrees with me that dressage is a specific way of training and riding for a specific goal. That doesn't make dressage bad or wrong. It is completely right, if your goal is to ride a horse with collected gaits.

But the fundamental flaw in 'western dressage' is that western riding had a different goal. Most western riders want speed, since western riding has it roots in working cattle, and that often needs speed. Or it requires covering a lot of miles in minimal time with minimal effort so you can arrive at a work site with enough energy to do the job. Dressage ultimately has the horse working very hard so it can move across the ground slowly. That is the opposite of western riding. And it seems the WD folk don't understand EITHER western or dressage well enough to grasp that.

I'm a *******ized rider. That is fine for me & my horses, because I only have two that I ride and they are happy riding with me. But I identify most with the western approach, and I find it offensive when the Western Dressage Association says:

*"It is not the goal of Western Dressage to create western horses that compete in open dressage but to create better western horses and riders through the use and principles of dressage.*" and 

"*The Western Dressage Association® of America (WDAA) was organized to provide western riders and horses with an educational program which incorporates the principles of lightness into a whole new way of thinking about riding western. Western Dressage helps a rider to improve the horse’s balance, cadence and carriage.*"

I don't think western riding needs the principles of dressage to create better western horses and western riders. I think the ones we have, trained for cutting, reining, barrel racing, roping, and even a darn good trail horse are ALREADY darn impressive. A cutting horse impresses the living daylights out of me, without ever performing a collected gait. I think it takes a lunatic to claim that good reiners need help to ride a horse with 'balance, cadence and carriage', or that the approach used for teaching collected gaits will result in a cutting horse who cuts better than he already does.

Dressage horses are trained and ridden differently than roping horse because dressage and roping have different goals, and neither is wrong. Reiners aren't ridden like dressage horses because the dressage style of riding doesn't work for a reiner, just as a reining style of riding wouldn't work in dressage.

I'm certain *core* understands that. I don't think the WD folks do.

BTW - I find the Australian stock saddle to be the most secure. When Mia (my Arabian mare) starts prancing in a wash, I tell folks we're doing "Australian Dressage". Then I look around and hope *Kayty* didn't hear me...
​


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## deserthorsewoman

I like the term "gathering"...that's way more precise for what is actually asked of the horse. 
As for western horses not needing dressage and collection....you really think a cutting horse could cut, be light in front to follow that cow WITHOUT having his hind under himself?
Do you really think a reiner could slide and roll back and speed control circles WITHOUT having his hind end under himself?
Try to get a roping horse out if the box fast without that hind end pushing hard
make a barrel horse turn fast without that hindend under himself
See my point?
Another thing is, with dressage basics the rider gets total control over the horses movements, and that can be life saving when encountering a tricky situation out on trail.


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## bsms

deserthorsewoman said:


> ...As for western horses not needing dressage and collection....you really think a cutting horse could cut, be light in front to follow that cow WITHOUT having his hind under himself?
> Do you really think a reiner could slide and roll back and speed control circles WITHOUT having his hind end under himself?...
> See my point?...


Nope. Not at all. Why does a horse need "dressage training" to learn to bring his hind end under him as he prepares for a turn or to cut cattle?

He doesn't. When I was working with my gelding to improve his turns, I got advice from some barrel racers. That advice worked. I also later found that advice in a dressage book. Great. But that advice was no more 'training for dressage' than it was 'training for barrel racing'.

And again, the type of collection that the SYSTEM of dressage trains to is the collected GAIT. Reiners don't do collected gaits. They define collection differently than the FEI. Barrel racers don't do collected gaits. When they say they collect a horse, they are referring to something different than dressage.

Dressage is not the Queen of Riding. It doesn't own all good training. It is entirely possible for someone who has never seen a warmblood to train a horse to carry himself on his hind end long enough to make a fast turn and power his way out of the turn. It has been done by millions of western riders.. Heck, I've done it, and I've never seen a live dressage event.

And just because a horse can do a full collected gait, per dressage, there is no guarantee it could do many of the reining maneuvers. It would first need reining training, and it might well be a horse with marginal conformation to do reining, just as my 15.3 hand, 900 lb Arabian mare with her long legs would be.

So no. Western horses do NOT need dressage. They need training for what they do, and there will be some overlap with the techniques used by dressage - but dressage doesn't OWN that training. THAT thinking is the true dressage snobbery.


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## jaydee

bsms - you might be contradicting yourself without even knowing it because what you're actually saying is that the basics of european dressage are present in most other types of riding. The levels that they work at when they reach the top are way different to the sort of dressage a young pony club child will do - but the basics are still there even if they never progress further they will be of value
A lot of reiners do have dressage lessons to improve themselves and their horses. Eitan Beth-Halachmy who has pioneered the cowboy dressage did so as a step sideways from his reining which he was a champion in
Not all western horses do only barrel racing type things either - arabians/part arabians & Morgan horses all do rail classes in western pleasure but with a higher head set than typical of WP - a lot of them are taking up WD as its something more than just following another horse around a ring and opens up a new show option for them


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## Muppetgirl

BSMS^^^^Reiners don't do collected gaits????? Please explain! Every forward movement a horse makes is a 'gait' and reiners have to be highly collected....


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## deserthorsewoman

This is a sign that few people actually understand dressage in it's truest sense. Dressage is NOT ONLY riding a big huge warmblood around a 20x60m arena with letters as points of reference.
Dressage evolved through the needs for a battle horse, which, with fancy movements, could get his rider out of precarious situations. For getting a horse to do that, it had do gather itself to be able to work if it's much more powerful hind end. So certain exercises were created to help the horse. Keeping in mind that horses way back then were smaller, shorter and much more upright, it wasn't too hard to train a horse. 
Nowadays, the breeds who are actually best suited for that dressage, are far from being considered dressage horses. And the ones who are now, require much more intense work to be able to perform. So new rules and standards had to be brought out to help working these horses to achieve the movements and collection. 
In other parts of the world dressage in the classical sense survived with working horses, mainly with cattle, because for this job a very handy horse is needed. One who works off his hind end to be quick and strong. So, the training principles of the classical dressage, tho modified through different tack, remained. 
So, the working cowhorse or the traditional bridle horse is actually a dressage horse, the bridle horse actually the equivalent of a grand prix special horse. 

.....I know im gonna catch h*** for that last sentence at least............


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## jaydee

I'm not a massive fan of Clinton but his horse Mindy (who is a quarter horse) is trained for reining and if you skip throught the start of this video to where he's riding I dont see how anyone could deny that he's using dressage techniques to get the results - I'm sure he wouldn't deny it either
People need to stop thinking of dressage as some snooty sport that only belongs to one elite group of people and remember that its the oldest form of modern day riding that we have and pretty much everything else has branched off and evolved from it in its own way to suit the needs of the rider
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5IUYICjMB4&feature=related


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## Muppetgirl

Oh my left arm for a bridle horse!!


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## bsms

First, I'm not saying the basics of European dressage are present in other disciplines, any more than I'm saying the basics of barrel racing are present in European dressage, so all dressage riders & horses need to study barrel racing. It is only the dressage queens who believe that dressage is all controlling, and anyone who does anything in common with dressage is benefiting from dressage.

Someone using stirrups is not dressage. Someone teaching a horse basic balance with a rider is not dressage. Dressage does those things in common with other disciplines, but that common core is not "dressage", because dressage is not the 'good riding' that all other disciplines are perversions of...

And MG, reiners do not do collected gaits. As I thought I made excruciatingly clear, reiners use the word "collection" differently than dressage riders do. Dressage trains to collected gaits, and that FEI definition is NOT what reiners do or desire.

That is part of the reason reiners and dressage riders ride differently. And that is why I specified 'collected GAITS', because a collected gait is different than moving forward with some degree of 'collection'. Definitions are important if one doesn't want confusion.

When I try to teach my mare Mia to canter 'with collection', my goal is very different from a dressage rider who uses those same words. And I do not need the system of dressage, or to spend years training my horse in dressage, to teach her to canter with an acceptable level of collection for our purposes. But I would need her to train in dressage to teach her a collected canter gait. Collected canter, as a gait, has had a definition accepted by the horse world for over 100 years. I want to teach Mia to canter with collection, but I do not want to teach her the collected canter gait:
"4. The following canters are recognized: working canter, collected canter, medium canter
and extended canter.

4.1 Collected Canter. The horse remaining on the bit moves forward with his neck raised
and arched. The collected canter is marked by the lightness of the forehand and the
engagement of the hindquarters: i.e., is characterized by supple, free and mobile shoulders
and very active quarters. The horse’s strides are shorter than at the other canters but he is
lighter and more mobile.

4.2 Working Canter. This is a pace between the collected and the medium canter in which a
horse, not yet trained and ready for collected movements, shows himself properly balanced
and remaining on the bit, goes forward with even, light and cadenced strides and good hock
action. The expression “good hock action” does not mean that collection is a required
quality of the working canter. It only underlines the importance of an impulsion originated
from the activity of the hindquarters.

4.3 Medium Canter. This is a pace between the working and the extended canter. The horse
goes forward with free, balanced and moderately extended strides and an obvious
impulsion from the hindquarters. The rider allows the horse remaining on the bit to carry his
head a little more in front of the vertical than at the collected and working canter and allows
him at the same time to lower his head and neck slightly. The strides should be long and as
even as possible and the whole movement balanced and unconstrained.

4.4 Extended Canter. The horse covers as much ground as possible. Maintaining the same
rhythm he lengthens his strides to the utmost without losing any of his calmness and
lightness as a result of great impulsion from the hindquarters. The rider allows the horse
remaining on the bit without leaning on it to lower and extend his head and neck; the tip of
his nose pointing more or less forward."​www.usef.org/documents/ruleBook/2004/Rule-XIX.pdf​ 
I want Mia to move at an extended canter, which is not a strung out canter. I have no desire for her to move at a canter with her head vertical, and I honestly don't want her 'on the bit'. And that is right for my riding, but it is not the collected canter gait.


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## deserthorsewoman

So you're basically saying it is okay for a horse to carry a rider in a faster gait, having close to 70% of his own weight already on his much lighter built forehand, instead if working the horse to shift it's weight to the much stronger hind end and be able to cope much better with the added weight of a rider........NOT saying you could ride collected canter only, saying that the basic collection work is not needed for your style of riding.


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## Muppetgirl

Yes, reiners do perform collected gaits. Whatever the FEI standards are, they are for judging purposes for Dressage classes, and many a reining horse would meet or exceed those standards....


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## SouthernTrails

.

I stole this Video from a post in another section by EvilHorseofDoom :lol: 

Manolo Mendez and Josh Lyons, Sunday Showcase, Equitana-Melbourne, 2012 - YouTube!

I liked the Music :wink:

.


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## deserthorsewoman

SouthernTrailsGA said:


> .
> 
> I stole this Video from a post in another section by EvilHorseofDoom :lol:
> 
> Manolo Mendez and Josh Lyons, Sunday Showcase, Equitana-Melbourne, 2012 - YouTube!
> 
> I liked the Music :wink:
> 
> .


they were having fun, I'd say and an open mind.......;-)


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## Muppetgirl

Thankyou SouthernTrails....my thoughts in action!


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## bsms

First, dressage came from the parade ground, not the battle ground. A rider using two hands on the battleground is darn near worthless to the army, and a horse moving with a high degree of collection moves too slow and is too exposed to be useful in battle. But on the parade ground, it looks great.

Second, dressage is not defined as "any riding where a horse uses its rear end". All riding needs the horse to use its rear. That is why horses have big butts. But not all riding is dressage riding.

_"People need to stop thinking of dressage as some snooty sport that only belongs to one elite group of people and remember that its the oldest form of modern day riding that we have and pretty much everything else has branched off and evolved from it..."_

Historically wrong. The Mongols didn't ride or train in dressage, and neither did the American Indians. Neither did the cowboys or cavalry. Neither did the ancient Greeks.

Dressage is a variation that evolved at the same time other variations evolved. It isn't the way the Chinese rode, or the Romans, etc. Dressage is not the Mother of Horsemanship. Other styles didn't branch off of dressage. 

If you actually look thru history, and look at saddles and equipment and riding manuals of armies, you don't find dressage. You find something much closer to this:










Look at this image from the 1300s:










That isn't dressage. :evil: It has more in common with the cowboy than with Anky.

Athens, 440 BC:










I believe this postage stamp was derived from a painting done around 600 AD:










This picture is from a tomb carved in the 600s - notice the stirrup placement:










Roughly 900 AD:










From École de Cavalerie in 1729:










Dressage evolved in Europe around 1600-1900, but the main change is a move away from what cowboys used was in the mid-1800s. While both dressage and western riding use a traditional seat, what we see in dressage now reflects an evolution made to adapt to the use of collected gaits in the 1800s. Since cowboys didn't use the collected gaits developed in dressage, they retained the older, traditional seat and leg position.


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## Muppetgirl

And if I could figure out how to post a pic from my iphone, I'd post pics of my perfect sliding tracks I made with my boy yesterday....made through softness, impulsion, collection and mostly DRIVE from that back end and LIFT in the front end.....without all those Id be eating dirt or my saddle horn and my horse would probably sustain a nasty injury....


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## Muppetgirl

BSMS....you can ride collected one handed....


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## bsms

MG, there is a very noticeable difference between the gait of reiners and trained dressage horses. The organization that provides rules for international competition calls what dressage uses a 'collected gait'. If you want to argue they are wrong, then take it up with the FEI - which I believe also now sanctions reining...


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## deserthorsewoman

Bsms......nice examples of what I stated. I didn't use the Chinese, but part of what I said counts for those too, small, compact horses
And you're posting pictures of exactly that, small, compact, more upright, and cow horses. Horses who EASILY collect. 
And, you definitely can ride collected with one hand, the bridle horse, the Spanish vaquero horse, the modern reiner, the classical dressage horse on the "shanked bit"alone, in German called "blanke Kandarre". Kandarre being the shanked part of the double bridle. 

I get the feeling we are just about talking about the same thing here, anyway. Dressage, as a discipline of showing, is not new or unique. Or elite. It is basic requirement for a well ridden horse, has to be worked at, sometimes hard, sometimes less hard, in its higher levels can be a form of art (note: CAN, but not always is), rules and standards had to be written, as with any competitive sport, and had to be adjusted for the now used type of horse. 
Maybe the latter makes it so hard to understand that the principle is the same.


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## Muppetgirl

bsms said:


> MG, there is a very noticeable difference between the gait of reiners and trained dressage horses. The organization that provides rules for international competition calls what dressage uses a 'collected gait'. If you want to argue they are wrong, then take it up with the FEI - which I believe also now sanctions reining...


Im not arguing with the FEI standard....I'm stating that what they dictate is directed towards judging and competition....its not the 'sandard' that is the be all and end all for every discipline....


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## bsms

"Dressage, as a discipline of showing, is not new or unique. Or elite. It is basic requirement for a well ridden horse..."

No. It is not. The examples I gave are closer to the riding of a western cowboy from 1900 than they are to a dressage rider in 2012. Dressage is NOT a basic requirement for a good horse. Dressage is an off-shoot of good riding. It is a subsection. It is a branch, not the tree trunk. The tree trunk, as I tried to show, uses a style very much in common with a 1900s cowboy.

The cowboys of the 1800s and early 1900s developed a lot of great horses without ever reading or hearing or seeing dressage. The word dressage is not French for "horse using its butt'. All well trained horses use their butts, but very few well trained horses are dressage horses.

And yes, you can ride a reasonably collected horse one handed. It is done a few million times a day. But you don't ride dressage one handed in competition. Because that isn't part of the history and specialty of dressage. And that doesn't make dressage wrong. It just means it is not all-encompassing.

There is nothing wrong with a western rider saying they ride a collected horse. But if they claim to ride collected gaits, then it will cause confusion because there is a different meaning, internationally accepted from long before I was born, about what a collected gait is. There needs to be a way to describe what makes the movement of a dressage horse different from the movement seen in reining. And the FEI - which sanctions both, I believe - uses the term 'collected gait'. And MG, you do not make a sliding track using a collected gait, although collection is needed to create a sliding track.

If someone has a better term, have at it. 

To the subject of this thread: This misunderstanding is at the root of WD. WD wants to use the principles of dressage to "improve" western horses and riders, without understanding that western horses and riders already know what they are doing. I find it offensive that someone wants to say western riders don't know how to ride a horse with lightness, or with balance, or with impulsion. All good western riding already does that.

Dressage can be celebrated and respected as a branch, just as reining, cutting, and polo can. Don't mistake the branches for the tree.
​


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Western Dressage is never going to be Classical Dressage for the simple reason that a lot of us here in the US do ride Stock Type horses. 

I ride a very athletic Arab, with all the lightness and suspension in the world and he comes by it naturally, and he's a joy and very easy to ride. He'd make a really good Classical Dressage horse, if my interests lay there but they don't. So, he'll remain my go to fun horse to ride, Western Pleasure, Trail or trail riding or Parade riding. 

I also ride a QH who is the Yugo with busted springs to the Arabian's Maserati. He's Halter bred, not performance or cow horse bred, so he's downhill and built like a Sherman Tank and can barely get out of his own way. He's so heavy on the forehand that he causes muscle spasms in my neck and shoulders and my arms ache after I ride him. I ride him Western Pleasure and around the ranch and in the occasional parade. He will be trained in Western Dressage. Not because we want to blow anyone's mind with what a great dressage horse he is but because I will spend the rest of my life and all of his trying to get him a little more on his hind end. He goes real slow because that's his personality and physical ability but he's not collected. He's physically not really capable of collection or tracking up. 

I don't expect him to EVER be a great dressage mount, he's just not capable. He is capable of better though and through dressage training, we'll try to get him to his best. 

Even with WD defined tests, I doubt he'll make it TO first level, let alone past it. But we'll have fun getting there and doing it in a western pleasure saddle. WD is designed for those of us who have the desire to improve and learn but not necessarily the desire to go whole hog into the discipline. I have no intention of not showing WP and Western Riding, if he proves capable of doing several flying lead changes in a row and at this point it's highly questionable, or Trail or Parades, in favor of doing Dressage tests. I do wish to continue working to get him a little off his front end and that is something dressage is uniquely qualified to help me do.


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## deserthorsewoman

Typical question of what was here first, the chicken or the egg. 
Classical dressage us the base if all currently known and accepted riding styles. So CLASSICAL DRESSAGE is the trunk, reining, jumping, dressage, competitive, are branches. 
Classical dressage is what you, bsms, posted as ecole de cavalerie. 
Any rider who is willing to improve his/her knowledge and horse, will, rather sooner than later, encounter principles of classical dressage. 
Competitive dressage, is just that, competitive(Note: not always, thankfully). To have a competition certain general rules are needed. And money and prestige is thrown in. 
Same with all other competitive equestrian sports.
But still, without CLASSICAL DRESSAGE there would hardly be any equestrian sport apart from racing. 
Note: Classical dressage is not to be confused with modern competitive dressage.....

And I have no clue where you got the "dressage is being used in parade" from........that's about as far from it as it gets.......


----------



## bsms

"_Classical dressage us the base if all currently known and accepted riding styles. So CLASSICAL DRESSAGE is the trunk, reining, jumping, dressage, competitive, are branches._"

I'm sorry, but you are ignoring history and indulging in mythology.

Look at the examples I showed. Ask yourself how many of those examples show the shoulder - hip - heel vertical line prized in classical dressage. Look at how closely the cowboy from 1900 Texas mimics the riding done for a thousand years before him, and how that style differs from classical dressage.

Repeating an assertion doesn't make it true. Classical dressage branched off from mainstream riding in the 1800s. Mainstream riding lived on, and was used by cowboys (and still is). 

European or classical dressage promoters have passed off these myths for a long time, but there is no evidence to support their argument - or yours. Classical dressage is a branch of riding adapted for riding highly collected horses in the style suited for parade grounds. It isn't wrong. It is admirable for what it is. It is very difficult to do well. But it is NOT the base of all riding, nor the trunk of the tree. It is a specialty, as are cutting, barrel racing, polo, steeplechase and jumping. All of which should be admired and practiced for what they are, and not promoted as being what they are not.

The folks riding dressage competitively are largely following "classical dressage". The classical dressage fallacy is just that. Dressage as practiced in the 1800s was every bit as ugly as competitive dressage can be. Or not. Depends on the trainer, as it does with cutting, WP, and polo. And I said parade, because it would cause greater offense if I said 'circus'...


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## jaydee

*bsms* you are totally ignoring the need for adaptation of riding style and tack to suit needs
The romans far pre-dated the Renaissance period when the classical dressage style began to develop after a long period of what was regarded as brutality and primitive riding that cast aside all the efforts of people like Xenophon
You cant possibly use the chinese as an example their early riding style evolved in isolation of Europe
The American Indians had never seen a horse before the Spanish arrived though the Vaquero's were totally influenced by them. The american Indian saw how the Europeans rode and imitated them and then adapted that to suit their needs - mostly bareback riding
Now - if you have done much bareback riding (as I have) you will know exactly how important collection is for comfort, control & safety. A jog or collected trot is far more comfortable than any faster and having a horse go into canter is far more desirable from collected trot than it is if you 'run' the horse into canter - by which time its going to be going so long and fast its not going to be very manouverable when hunting buffalo. Having a horse in control and with collection is more vital bareback for twisting and turning than it is with a saddle.
The British Household cavalry do dressage exercises as part of their work routine and the remounts (new horses coming in) are schooled to dressage standards as per tradition
The Spanish Riding School maintain that their movements were adapted from those used in battle where the horse itself was a 'weapon'. I dont see those movements being used in parades somehow and there is no history of that ever being the case
Classical dressage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Reno Bay

Oh, so now Classical Dressage is a _fallacy_?
Way to be incredibly rude...


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## deserthorsewoman

Thanks jaydee........but I think we're arguing with a stop sign here. 
I think it's pretty safe to say that everybody agrees with history, well, except one.......;-)


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## franknbeans

deserthorsewoman said:


> Typical question of what was here first, the chicken or the egg.
> *Classical dressage us the base if all currently known and accepted riding styles. So CLASSICAL DRESSAGE is the trunk, reining, jumping, dressage, competitive, are branches. *
> Classical dressage is what you, bsms, posted as ecole de cavalerie.
> *Any rider who is willing to improve his/her knowledge and horse, will, rather sooner than later, encounter principles of classical dressage. *
> Competitive dressage, is just that, competitive(Note: not always, thankfully). To have a competition certain general rules are needed. And money and prestige is thrown in.
> Same with all other competitive equestrian sports.
> But still, without CLASSICAL DRESSAGE there would hardly be any equestrian sport apart from racing.
> Note: Classical dressage is not to be confused with modern competitive dressage.....
> 
> And I have no clue where you got the "dressage is being used in parade" from........that's about as far from it as it gets.......



Personally, I don't for a nanosecond believe that. That sounds to me like more inflated dressage egos. To say that ALL of anything comes from one thing-doubt it. But, since I am not a history expert, nor do I have the time or desire to search it all up like BSMS does. Again, as we went through in an earlier thread that went in a similar direction-good riding and training principles can be used without using dressage. One is not exclusive of the other. I find it difficult to believe that the riders of the "old west" gave a hoot about dressage, yet their horses were well trained. Trail riding is also a "discipline". Not sure if dressage is the "basis" of that. I think you get my drift. ALL is a lot. "Some" might be more appropriate.:? Just because my reiner sidepasses does not mean I do dressage, nor is a side pass (or any other maneuver for that matter) exclusive to dressage. Shoot-you need to sidepass to open a gate and traverse some trails. That is just one example.


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## bsms

jaydee said:


> *bsms* you are totally ignoring the need for adaptation of riding style and tack to suit needs
> The romans far pre-dated the Renaissance period when the classical dressage style began to develop after a long period of what was regarded as brutality and primitive riding that cast aside all the efforts of people like Xenophon
> 
> *Xenophon used bits that would curl your hair. The ancient greeks vaulted on their horses and their riding was adapted for using spears and no stirrups. He was no more the father of dressage than I am.*
> 
> You cant possibly use the chinese as an example their early riding style evolved in isolation of Europe
> 
> *If dressage is the basis of all good riding, then either the Chinese developed it independently or they sucked at riding. In reality, there are paintings of Chinese riders that look like the modern forward seat, and others that look like a cowboy. Not many, though, that look like someone riding 'classical dressage'.*
> 
> The American Indians had never seen a horse before the Spanish arrived though the Vaquero's were totally influenced by them. The american Indian saw how the Europeans rode and imitated them and then adapted that to suit their needs - mostly bareback riding
> 
> *And their riding was superb - although it was NOT founded on dressage.
> *
> Now - if you have done much bareback riding (as I have) you will know exactly how important collection is for comfort, control & safety. A jog or collected trot is far more comfortable than any faster and having a horse go into canter is far more desirable from collected trot than it is if you 'run' the horse into canter - by which time its going to be going so long and fast its not going to be very manouverable when hunting buffalo. Having a horse in control and with collection is more vital bareback for twisting and turning than it is with a saddle.
> 
> *Who is arguing collection is bad, particularly if you define collection as "horse using its butt"? But that is NOT dressage collection, and it is NOT a collected gait, and most bareback riders don't desire the bouncy gaits of a well trained dressage horse. Again, that indicates dressage is NOT the trunk, but a branch.*
> 
> The British Household cavalry do dressage exercises as part of their work routine and the remounts (new horses coming in) are schooled to dressage standards as per tradition
> 
> *As a form of cross-training, it is fine. But the British cavalry did not ride into battle using collected gaits. No one did. And the US Cavalry investigated the ideas of the 'dressage masters', and found them unsuitable for military use. If dressage was the basis of all good riding, the Cavalry wouldn't have rejected it.
> 
> This isn't to say that riding in the dressage style, or training a horse in classical dressage or modern dressage is bad. It is good, for the purpose it is done. But again, it is a branch of the tree. Not the trunk.*
> 
> The Spanish Riding School maintain that their movements were adapted from those used in battle where the horse itself was a 'weapon'. I dont see those movements being used in parades somehow and there is no history of that ever being the case
> *
> No one ever used them in battle. A soldier with a pike would slaughter a dressage horse in battle. The SRS needs to sell a product, and they do. But they didn't train horses for combat. They trained them for the rich. And Xenophon understood the difference. The section he wrote that most closely resembles dressage is a passage bout how a king or ruler should ride, to impress and inspire the commoners.*


_If, however, the wish is to secure a horse adapted to parade and state_
_processions, a high stepper and a showy (1) animal, these are qualities_
_not to be found combined in every horse, but to begin with, the animal_
_must have high spirit and a stalwart body. Not that, as some think, a_
_horse with flexible legs will necessarily be able to rear his body. What_
_we want is a horse with supple loins, and not supple only but short and_
_strong (I do not mean the loins towards the tail, but by the belly the_
_region between the ribs and thighs). That is the horse who will be_
_able to plant his hind-legs well under the forearm. If while he is so_
_planting his hind-quarters, he is pulled up with the bit, he lowers his_
_hind-legs on his hocks (2) and raises the forepart of his body, so that_
_any one in front of him will see the whole length of his belly to the_
_sheath. (3) At the moment the horse does this, the rider should give_
_him the rein, so that he may display the noblest feats which a horse can_
_perform of his own free will, to the satisfaction of the spectators._​


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## deserthorsewoman

A little bit of history.......
French and Italian riding schools, Italians even with a now extinct breed, the neapolitano, neighboring countries, like Spain and Portugal adopted this way of riding. Yes, only the wealthy could afford it. So, now, looking at history, who again discovered America?....and who adopted the style of riding brought there with the discoverer? And who, really quick, used horses and the way of riding.....and whatvagain evolved out if that over time? And which style if riding, again, creates the bridle horse?... ...and how does the bridle horse function and work?

And just to make it clear and not having the words turned around before I even say them.....modern dressage is not classical dressage as practised by for example, the Spanish riding school in Vienna. Modern dressage evolved, just as reining, barrel racing, jumping, cross country, as a competitive sport. Not one competitive sport is better or worse than another. All SHOULD have in common the well-being of the horse. And working a horse after the principles of classical dressage will achieve that. Regardless of what the rider wears or what kind of tack he uses.


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## core

Muppetgirl said:


> Yes, reiners do perform collected gaits. Whatever the FEI standards are, they are for judging purposes for Dressage classes, and many a reining horse would meet or exceed those standards....



Since reining horses have mastered collection (at a far younger age than a dressage horse), why would dressage be the basis of all training then? Apparently you've surpassed all people/horses that have specialized in dressage. We have nothing for you that you haven't surpassed us in. 

Never mind. The irony is too much for me...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms

"And working a horse after the principles of classical dressage will achieve that."

So would training the horse at any competent, caring barrel horse trainer, or reining trainer, or jump trainer. No one sport has a lock on caring people who train an athletic horse.

The lady who trained my horses comes from a barrel racing background. She has been to clinics in dressage, but if you asked her to train a horse in dressage, she would give you names of folks you might want to hire. But she loves horses, puts them ahead of money, and will gladly work with someone to get a happy, confident, willing and healthy horse. She has done wonders with my horses.

And that is kind of my point about WD - lots of western riders train and ride good horses without needing to train them in dressage. Not because dressage is bad, but because the end goal in dressage is a horse that moves in a way many riders don't need.


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## Muppetgirl

core said:


> Since reining horses have mastered collection (at a far younger age than a dressage horse), why would dressage be the basis of all training then? Apparently you've surpassed all people/horses that have specialized in dressage. We have nothing for you that you haven't surpassed us in.
> 
> Never mind. The irony is too much for me...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not sure what you're getting at here....but you may have noticed I am sitting on the fence....I also never said dressage is the basis for ALL trainng, and I never said that I have surpassed all people/horses....jeez?.......irony is too much for you???? I'm not being judges in a dressage class.....so therefore the FEI standards for dressage don't apply to me.....every horse and rider is different....don't pigeon hole me....or anyone else who doesn't ride to 'your' code...


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## core

Muppetgirl said:


> Not sure what you're getting at here....but you may have noticed I am sitting on the fence....I also never said dressage is the basis for ALL trainng, and I never said that I have surpassed all people/horses....jeez


You said: 


> Originally Posted by Muppetgirl:
> Whatever the FEI standards are, they are for judging purposes for Dressage classes, and many a reining horse ***would meet or exceed *** those standards....


What were you saying then? Because that came off as one of the most arrogant statements I've read in a long time. Maybe it's not translating well through cyberspace...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee

Novice test
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3t50l9VmJp8

Freestyle Grand Prix
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tU9bvUrH5jQ&feature=relmfu

Quite different
Both Dressage

*& Core* - I think you'll find that dressage pre-dates reining but I would say that a lot of the moves are influenced by dressage and ridden using the same aids/cues
Most of the 'cowboys' who went out West to work on the big cattle ranches were of Irish & English origins. They were boys who'd learnt to ride before they came to the US and handed their knowledge down through the generations So their riding must have been influenced by the european style of riding that was in turn influenced by dressage (please stop confusing with the name given to the sport because even that has changed since its inception)
This is worth reading
USDF | About | About Dressage | History
as is this
USDF | About | About Dressage | Competition | Tests


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## Muppetgirl

core said:


> You said:
> 
> What were you saying then? Because that came off as one of the most arrogant statements I've read in a long time. Maybe it's not translating well through cyberspace...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What I was saying is, and I was referring to high level reining riders/horses when I said a lot of them could/ can meet or exceed the FEI standards for collection is that you don't need to have been trained in dressage to perform these things correctly.....if I wanted to be a dressage rider I'd train in dressage....same goes with reinng.....Am I detecting a purist mentality??? How dare we western thugs ******* up your long boots and snow white breeches? 

BY THE WAY I love dressage......


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## bsms

_"Most of the 'cowboys' who went out West to work on the big cattle ranches were of Irish & English origins. They were boys who'd learnt to ride before they came to the US and handed their knowledge down through the generations So their riding must have been influenced by the european style of riding that was in turn influenced by dressage..."_

False. Most of them were self-taught, or taught by the military. Their style of riding reflects the style used in the US Cavalry, which rejected dressage as unsuitable for military needs - needs that include fast training for horse and rider, and covering a lot of ground with the least effort. And no, they were not mostly immigrants.

From the link you provided:

_"The United States Cavalry at Ft. Riley exchanged ideas and instructors with the schools in Europe and started the trend that brought dressage training not only to the military but to civilians in the United States._"

Not true. The US Cavalry rejected dressage, and the manual written in the 40s - the last one written - finally mentioned collection, but was far more heavily influenced by Caprilli than by dressage. I've got a copy, and read it closely. It is a good discussion of how to jump, but it is significant that it was approved about the same time horses disappeared from normal war use.

Here is a picture of cavalry from the first World War:










Compare to a cowboy of that era (1907 Texas):










That is an awful lot like how folks were riding in 900 AD:










The style of dressage adapted that for the demands of riding a very collected horse, which is part of why the heel moved under the hip. People were not stupid about riding horses for 2000 years. They rode they way most people have used:










That is just the easiest way to ride and control a horse. It isn't dressage, and dressage doesn't mean 'horse using butt'. And it was also used by the Chinese, and by the Indians in the west. That is the trunk, not the branch.

The idea that dressage is the mother of all riding is simply not backed by any evidence. It is a myth.


----------



## Muppetgirl

Ok I'm just going to keep subbing to this, but I find it very 'belittling' to hear or read people saying things like 'it took yeeeaaarrrs to train my horse to do this or that'.......
Whether it takes, one day, one week, or a whole year or even three to teach a horse one maneuver or another highly depends on the horses capability and willingness to learn and perform it properly and the riders skill level and aptitude for riding......it's not the discipline that makes the horse or the rider....and a good judge will know that.....and where or how the history of one discipline comes from is of non-importance because when you roll through a square halt or scotch a slide the judge isn't going to give a rats behind, he's going to deduct points!

Be the best at what you can with what you've got!


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## core

Muppetgirl said:


> What I was saying is, and I was referring to high level reining riders/horses when I said a lot of them *could/ can meet or exceed the FEI standards for collection* is that you don't need to have been trained in dressage to perform these things correctly.....if I wanted to be a dressage rider I'd train in dressage....same goes with reinng.....Am *I detecting a purist mentality???* * How dare we western thugs ******* up your long boots and snow white breeches? *
> 
> BY THE WAY I love dressage......


I don't agree. If a good reining horse can meet/exceed the degree of collection required for a dressage horse then theoretically the dressage horse would have all the collection it needs to be a good reining horse. I seriously doubt a horse trained through GP dressage (the highest degree of collection that we test) could be competitive as a reiner. It's just not the same. 

I have an idea.. prove me wrong. Take your reiner to a dressage show and ride a Grand Prix test. And don't use the "my horse isn't a warmblood" excuse with me. My old half Arab used to beat the snot out of the fancy warmbloods. My paint mutt beats the warmbloods. If my off breed horses can out score the warmbloods, then your reining horse should be able to at least hold it's own against a warmblood.

And I'm not taking my dressage horse to a reining competition. I already know we'd get our a$$ess handed to us.

Love the pot calling the kettle black thing you've got going on.


----------



## deserthorsewoman

bsms said:


> _"Most of the 'cowboys' who went out West to work on the big cattle ranches were of Irish & English origins. They were boys who'd learnt to ride before they came to the US and handed their knowledge down through the generations So their riding must have been influenced by the european style of riding that was in turn influenced by dressage..."_
> 
> False. Most of them were self-taught, or taught by the military. Their style of riding reflects the style used in the US Cavalry, which rejected dressage as unsuitable for military needs - needs that include fast training for horse and rider, and covering a lot of ground with the least effort. And no, they were not mostly immigrants.
> 
> From the link you provided:
> 
> _"The United States Cavalry at Ft. Riley exchanged ideas and instructors with the schools in Europe and started the trend that brought dressage training not only to the military but to civilians in the United States._"
> 
> Not true. The US Cavalry rejected dressage, and the manual written in the 40s - the last one written - finally mentioned collection, but was far more heavily influenced by Caprilli than by dressage. I've got a copy, and read it closely. It is a good discussion of how to jump, but it is significant that it was approved about the same time horses disappeared from normal war use.
> 
> Here is a picture of cavalry from the first World War:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Compare to a cowboy of that era (1907 Texas):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is an awful lot like how folks were riding in 900 AD:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The style of dressage adapted that for the demands of riding a very collected horse, which is part of why the heel moved under the hip. People were not stupid about riding horses for 2000 years. They rode they way most people have used:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is just the easiest way to ride and control a horse. It isn't dressage, and dressage doesn't mean 'horse using butt'. And it was also used by the Chinese, and by the Indians in the west. That is the trunk, not the branch.
> 
> The idea that dressage is the mother of all riding is simply not backed by any evidence. It is a myth.


I see a tendency to twist history around just as you need it and to see only what you want to see. 
To me stating that several different things don't mean "horse using butt" tells me that im wasting my energy. 
You need to learn what Classical Dressage is, then watch modern dressage competition, then go to a Buck Brannaman clinic to see how the same principles are being used there too. Then you might even learn to have more control over and less problems on the trail with your own horse.


----------



## Muppetgirl

core said:


> I don't agree. If a good reining horse can meet/exceed the degree of collection required for a dressage horse then theoretically the dressage horse would have all the collection it needs to be a good reining horse. I seriously doubt a horse trained through GP dressage (the highest degree of collection that we test) could be competitive as a reiner. It's just not the same.
> 
> I have an idea.. prove me wrong. Take your reiner to a dressage show and ride a Grand Prix test. And don't use the "my horse isn't a warmblood" excuse with me. My old half Arab used to beat the snot out of the fancy warmbloods. My paint mutt beats the warmbloods. If my off breed horses can out score the warmbloods, then your reining horse should be able to at least hold it's own against a warmblood.
> 
> And I'm not taking my dressage horse to a reining competition. I already know we'd get our a$$ess handed to us.
> 
> Love the pot calling the kettle black thing you've got going on.


Um....I'm talking about collection alone.....no breed bashing....I am saying that just because a horse has not been trained through the 'dressage' pyramid does not mean it is incapable of performing the same or better than what the FEI judges are looking for.....jeez, you are touchy......

I never said anything about warmbloods, they are certainly suited to dressage and I never said they weren't....

Read my posts a bit better and quit adding in things.....


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## core

deserthorsewoman said:


> You need to learn what Classical Dressage is, then watch modern dressage competition, then go to a Buck Brannaman clinic to see how the same principles are being used there too. Then you might even *learn to have more control over and less problems on the trail with your own horse.*


My God you people are rude. Why would you say that to anyone? 

bsms was trying to explain his view point. You resort to childish b.s. because you don't agree.


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## deserthorsewoman

He is not trying to explain. He is lecturing us and twisting the truth. Just because to prove HIS point. And I stand by that comment about going to a Brannaman clinic and learning how to ride better. Anybody will take something home from a BB clinic.


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## core

Muppetgirl said:


> Um....I'm talking about collection alone.....no breed bashing....I am saying that just because a horse has not been trained through the 'dressage' pyramid does not mean it is incapable of performing the same or better than what the FEI judges are looking for.....jeez, you are touchy......
> 
> I never said anything about warmbloods, they are certainly suited to dressage and I never said they weren't....
> 
> Read my posts a bit better and quit adding in things.....


You obviously aren't reading mine... 

Ugh. Forget it. THis is like talking to a brick wall. I'm done.


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## ~*~anebel~*~

Good riding is the basis for all riding. Dressage is a sport or discipline of riding. It's like saying football or hockey are the basis for all contact sports. Simply not true and ignorant.

As well if you actually take a read through a WD rule book you'll find that a WB would win a class over a QH if both horses put in the same test. Talking to WD judges and other officials, the only difference in the judging is nothing. I can put a western saddle on my WB and go ride WD and do the same as I do in normal dressage. It is simply a money grab. If people want to pay for the tests I put them in my horse shows, this is no different.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deserthorsewoman

Now what exactly makes you think your WB would be better than a QH in a WD test?
Don't want to argue. Just curious.


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## franknbeans

deserthorsewoman said:


> He is not trying to explain. He is lecturing us and twisting the truth. Just because to prove HIS point. And I stand by that comment about going to a Brannaman clinic and learning how to ride better. Anybody will take something home from a BB clinic.


BB is not "all that" either. No ONE person is, just like no ONE discipline is. Your comment was a personal attack and was uncalled for. Read a few posts here-many of us don't like BB much, I just happen to like ONE line of what he said, thus my signature.

I don't like all the history crap either. I just glaze over those posts and to me it is all "Blah...blah...blah....dressage....blah, blah, blah." We had another thread like this a couple of weeks ago, so BSMS probably still had all the history stuff at the ready.


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## franknbeans

core said:


> I don't agree. If a good reining horse can meet/exceed the degree of collection required for a dressage horse then theoretically the dressage horse would have all the collection it needs to be a good reining horse. I seriously doubt a horse trained through GP dressage (the highest degree of collection that we test) could be competitive as a reiner. It's just not the same.
> 
> I have an idea.. prove me wrong. Take your reiner to a dressage show and ride a Grand Prix test. And don't use the "my horse isn't a warmblood" excuse with me. My old half Arab used to beat the snot out of the fancy warmbloods. My paint mutt beats the warmbloods. If my off breed horses can out score the warmbloods, then your reining horse should be able to at least hold it's own against a warmblood.
> 
> And I'm not taking my dressage horse to a reining competition. I already know we'd get our a$$ess handed to us.
> 
> Love the pot calling the kettle black thing you've got going on.


Issue is-those of us who ride reiners don't do much "trotting", so a test with a true reiner may be a little tough. However, most of them would do pretty well, except for that......we may have to work on smooth transitions....downward ones, since we tend to stops a bit quickly......;-). But, when it comes to collection-reiners definitely would have that, and that was what MG was saying. I think there is probably more to a dressage test than just collection, just like there is more to a reining pattern than collection. BUT, you NEED collection to complete the maneuvers.


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## bsms

deserthorsewoman said:


> He is not trying to explain. He is lecturing us and twisting the truth. Just because to prove HIS point...


And unlike you, I did prove my point. I used EVIDENCE. I didn't make empty claims, but showed WHY a reasonable person should agree.

I didn't twist anything. The photos were real. The paintings and statues were real. The quote from Xenophon was real.

And I back it up with having actually read military manuals, and from an understanding of the military that came with 25+ years in the US Air Force. If someone needed you to get 3,000 horses and 2,500 riders ready for a war that could break out in 2-3 months, you had better not buy up a bunch of dressage manuals!

Dressage - and I don't care if you call it classical or competitive - is about perfection. The military is about "good enough". No one in their right mind would use a system that takes years of training and apply it to the military.

Yes, my mare is a challenge for me. She was sold to me as good for a beginner, and in reality the trainer who did so much for her concluded 3 years later than she had never been broken to ride. Take a total beginner, and add an Arabian mare who probably hadn't been broken, and who definitely had never gone outside of an arena, and you have the classic recipe for disaster. But Mia & I have stuck with each other, and we're now working on exorcising her inner demons. If she ever becomes "just a trail horse", it will reflect great credit on a lady whose background was barrel racing, and on me - although I may go to my grave with pain in my back from our adventures on the way. And my actual goal for her isn't for her to learn dressage, but to so rid her of her inner demons that I can someday take her to a local barrel racing competition...and finish last. If we ever pull it off, together, then last place will still be a victory. And I honestly think most genuine dressage riders can understand and respect that...


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## deserthorsewoman

I really don't care who likes or doesn't like BB. And if you are not interested in the history behind all of that, fine with me. But when people dig into history, then they should keep it straight. Not twist and turn it however suits them best. 
As for "getting personal", he is the one reporting about the problems he has with his horse, not in this thread, but in others. Therefore mentioning learning more and attending a clinic, by WHOEVER, might actually be helpful.


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## deserthorsewoman

Bsms, I hear you with Mia and I sincerely wish you all the best with her. 
For classical dressage, maybe we'll have a chance elsewhere to discuss it and come even to an agreement. A heated topic like this one is not the best place.


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## ~*~anebel~*~

deserthorsewoman said:


> Now what exactly makes you think your WB would be better than a QH in a WD test?
> Don't want to argue. Just curious.


Because WBs have been bred to excel at dressage, regardless of the tack. Read a rule book, talk to the officials sanctioned by WDAA, the tests are meant to be judged the same as a "normal" dressage test. If a horse with choppy movement and a horse with flowy movement put in the same test, the second horse will win. Same as in normal dressage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Muppetgirl

franknbeans said:


> Issue is-those of us who ride reiners don't do much "trotting", so a test with a true reiner may be a little tough. However, most of them would do pretty well, except for that......we may have to work on smooth transitions....downward ones, since we tend to stops a bit quickly......;-). But, when it comes to collection-reiners definitely would have that, and that was what MG was saying. I think there is probably more to a dressage test than just collection, just like there is more to a reining pattern than collection. BUT, you NEED collection to complete the maneuvers.


Exactly what I was attempting to say......


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## Muppetgirl

core said:


> You obviously aren't reading mine...
> 
> Ugh. Forget it. THis is like talking to a brick wall. I'm done.


If you're talking to a brick wall....than I've been attempting to converse with Fort Knox......


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## franknbeans

deserthorsewoman said:


> I really don't care who likes or doesn't like BB. And if you are not interested in the history behind all of that, fine with me. But when people dig into history, then they should keep it straight. Not twist and turn it however suits them best.
> As for "getting personal", he is the one reporting about the problems he has with his horse, not in this thread, but in others. Therefore mentioning learning more and attending a clinic, by WHOEVER, might actually be helpful.


Then the place for that comment was in THAT thread. Not this one. That is what makes it an inappropriate personal jab.:?


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## jaydee

bsms - once again you are dismissing the fact that the dressage seat has changed over time - the seat we are familiar with is not the same as it was when the dressage concept began
Charles 1 of England (1600 - 1649) was a huge follower of the new dressage style of riding, Pluvinel the first French Riding Master of this new fashion lived 1555 - 1620
The more forward leg was still evident in the hunting field in the 1970's though by then dressage had long evolved into the leg position we see now it took a long time for this to become the norm
In 1773 when the spanish riding school was in full swing they rode with the forward leg style - this was dressage in its infancy - no different to the photos you are showing
The British and Irish came over here able to ride - it was essential to get around and herd farm animals, they bought their riding and draft horses with them, they led the move out west along with the Dutch and Germans who were also accomplished horse men - many of these people were responsible for training non riders for the military


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## deserthorsewoman

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Because WBs have been bred to excel at dressage, regardless of the tack. Read a rule book, talk to the officials sanctioned by WDAA, the tests are meant to be judged the same as a "normal" dressage test. If a horse with choppy movement and a horse with flowy movement put in the same test, the second horse will win. Same as in normal dressage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That would be assuming the QH has the choppy movement......automatically.......or are you referring to movement as in big trot......which, IMO, shouldn't be a deciding factor in Western Dressage. Haven't read the WD rules, but sure hope this was taken into consideration. If not, WD doesn't make any sense at all. _


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## deserthorsewoman

franknbeans said:


> Then the place for that comment was in THAT thread. Not this one. That is what makes it an inappropriate personal jab.:?


you certainly must have missed the fact that bsms and I agreed.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

This thread is like arguing with a stump.


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## FalineDear

Since when did this thread turn into a boxing ring?

This thread is for opinions. Don't bash others opinions. That's just what an opinion is. There's no right or wrong.


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## SouthernTrails

FalineDear said:


> Since when did this thread turn into a boxing ring?
> 
> This thread is for opinions. Don't bash others opinions. That's just what an opinion is. There's no right or wrong.


Very nicely said

Too bad I can only "click" Like once :lol:


.


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## Muppetgirl

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> This thread is like arguing with a stump.


BAHAHAHAHA! And this is the Texas Chainsaw massacre! Bring on those stumps!:lol:


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## gypsygirl

has anyone else actually *ridden* a western dressage test in front of a judge or am i the only one ?

western dressage is for people who ride western and want to improve the way their horse goes. its more for people who pleasure ride, not those who are already competitive in another sport. They only have WD test at low levels, w/g and w/g/l. 

once again the judges are all *dressage * judges, not western pleasure/reining/etc judges. 

this thread just seems out of control and ridiculous to me !! especially because WD is supposed to be fun !

i have also done dressage trail which is fun too


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## gypsygirl

oops meant j of JOG not g lol i must be really tired !!


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## longride

Point of history. The US Army, in order to improve the instruction given troops sent a commission to Europe in the 30s to study European methods. They came back with dressage as taught in the military schools of France and Russia and the forward seat as taught in Italy. They actually made them work together. Yes, the training films from the 40s show forwThe first dressage teams in the Olympics were ALL military - there were no civilian teams, and the US was represented. In the 30s, the military schools WERE the dressage schools. The modern FEI directives are taken directly from the Cavalry manual of German Cavalry manuals as are most of the German manuals used by the German Federation. The old manual from the 1930s is still being quoted as the best progressive training for a riding horse by vets worldwide when looking for training systems that a best for the welfare of the horse.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

gypsygirl said:


> has anyone else actually *ridden* a western dressage test in front of a judge or am i the only one ?
> 
> ............
> 
> this thread just seems out of control and ridiculous to me !! especially because WD is supposed to be fun !
> 
> i have also done dressage trail which is fun too


Gypsy, I have not but I want to someday. As I said, my QH is not high level material and I'm interested in improving his gaits and my abilities but I want to ride my comfy WP saddle to do so. So I think WD sounds like a great thing. What is Dressage Trail? I have not heard of that, but it sounds a bit intriguing.


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## longride

My post got posted before I finished editing it. Oh well.


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## bsms

Point of history: The US Cavalry manual written in the 40s was very much a manual on jumping and the forward seat. It was not, by any measure, a manual on dressage. Nor were any of the previous manuals, because dressage is ill suited to the functioning of a military. A military needs to train large numbers in short times.

Yes, the US Army had folks who rode dressage. It also sponsored a polo team. But the style it taught is pretty obvious in the pictures of the military:

WW1, with dual gas masks:










Not sure of the age of this one:










I believe this is Canadian from around WW1:










The Italians, of course were nuts:










Believe this guy was British:










OK, end of history lesson. But there isn't much evidence that the military was teaching folks a dressage position...


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## bsms

Off topic, but I came across this tonight and thought it was pretty interesting. They bought 140,000 horses in Britain in just 2 weeks...:


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## deserthorsewoman

longride said:


> Point of history. The US Army, in order to improve the instruction given troops sent a commission to Europe in the 30s to study European methods. They came back with dressage as taught in the military schools of France and Russia and the forward seat as taught in Italy. They actually made them work together. Yes, the training films from the 40s show forwThe first dressage teams in the Olympics were ALL military - there were no civilian teams, and the US was represented. In the 30s, the military schools WERE the dressage schools. The modern FEI directives are taken directly from the Cavalry manual of German Cavalry manuals as are most of the German manuals used by the German Federation. The old manual from the 1930s is still being quoted as the best progressive training for a riding horse by vets worldwide when looking for training systems that a best for the welfare of the horse.


thanks so much for finding it, I knew it existed but couldn't quote it....thanks
In fact, my first instructor, 44 years ago, was an ex cavalry officer who taught dressage only


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## ~*~anebel~*~

deserthorsewoman said:


> That would be assuming the QH has the choppy movement......automatically.......or are you referring to movement as in big trot......which, IMO, shouldn't be a deciding factor in Western Dressage. Haven't read the WD rules, but sure hope this was taken into consideration. If not, WD doesn't make any sense at all. _


WD rewards good gaits for dressage, just as normal dressage does. A warmblood has better gaits for dressage than a quarterhorse on average. I have ridden quite a few QHs in dressage and compared to any WB I've ever ridden, yes their gaits are choppy. That is why they don't do well in dressage, becacuse they are not bred to move around looking pretty, they are bred to be useful. I'd hate to be stuck on a WB trying to move cattle.

The rules and objectives of WD are much the same as regular dressage and in speaking to the people who judge it, the placings and scores should be the same as in regular dressage because of it. Put a western saddle on a WB and it will do just as well in WD as in normal dressage. If it's getting 70% at training level it will do the same in WD. Same with a QH, if it's getting a 58% then it will keep getting 58% in WD, and keep placing behind the WB.

Also, WD aspires to be much more than something "fun" and "non-competetive". They just have not developed mid-high level tests, yet.


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## franknbeans

deserthorsewoman said:


> you certainly must have missed the fact that bsms and I agreed.


No, I didn't, but thanks. Still no excuse for the personal jab.


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## Bluebird

SouthernTrailsGA said:


> .
> 
> I have been hearing a lot in the last few months about Western Dressage and a search on the Internet is showing a lot in interest also. People are calling looking for Western Dressage Saddles, Etc.
> 
> Of course I have heard those that are insulted because of the new Discipleship.
> 
> Can we not have the beauty of English Dressage and Western Showmanship?
> 
> Leaving the Insults out, anyone have any thoughts?
> Anyone ever been to a competition for it?
> Anyone interested in trying it?
> 
> Have alook at this!
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ycY1S-BbwI


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## Bluebird

SouthernTrailsGA said:


> .
> 
> I have been hearing a lot in the last few months about Western Dressage and a search on the Internet is showing a lot in interest also. People are calling looking for Western Dressage Saddles, Etc.
> 
> Of course I have heard those that are insulted because of the new Discipleship.
> 
> Can we not have the beauty of English Dressage and Western Showmanship?
> 
> Leaving the Insults out, anyone have any thoughts?
> Anyone ever been to a competition for it?
> Anyone interested in trying it?
> 
> .


In my own humble opinion, as an English rider, there is in some circles, so much snobbery associated with dressage. Not only about the style of riding but also about the type of horse considered suitable. A few years ago, a group of English (Scottish) riders decided to test boundaries and started competing at dressage with, wait for it, CLYDESDALES! This was frowned upon and looked at as an abomination. Well, he who laughs last and all that...Clydedales are now doing amazing things at dressage. If Heavy horses can do it, then you Western Riders go for it. We are now training some of our Clydes to do Western style riding! YEAH.


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## longride

BSMS, in my unfinished post I addressed position. From the the late 20's until the mid 50s, almost all the pictures of dressage riders whether from Germany or anywhere else show shorter stirrups than are considered "dressage position" today. I have pictures of an old Prussian instructor of mine who rode with the Cadre Noir giving a dressage exhibition in Paris with stirrups shorter than most hunt seat riders use today. Those guys are now considered the great ODGs' -the people who had it right and need to be studied. Dressage riding is about being able to influence how the horse controls its balance, not about whether the stirrups are long or short. I can pull some videos of cowboys on the big ranches of ND and Canada that show a beautiful balanced seat position, heel under the hip, sitting centered over the horse. It is not the exaggerated long thigh position forced on dressage riders by some instructors but it is correct and effective. BTW, one of the leading saddle makers in Germany says that women should never be asked to ride with that long leg with the thigh forced back. A woman's hip structure doesn't allow it to be natural, and good dressage position is about being balanced and relaxed on the horse, not some magical outline. 

Funny thing about no dressage in the military manuals - I hunted with Gordon Wright. He was an officer at Fort Riley and rode for the US on the first civilian team. He edited the US Cavalry manual for civilian use, and it gave me the correct basics for my entire dressage career. It was there I learned about the rein effects, the correct use of the seat, the progressive training scale, though it wasn't called that and was introduced to the movements now required for the 2nd - 4th level horse. 

Do you ever wonder about the high head carriage in all those pictures you put up? That's the influence of Fillis. He taught that elevating the head would help the horse achieve collection. Because this technique is easily abused it was repudiated by the French and Germans, but we see it in all our Saddle Seat classes. Having the nose to the vertical didn't become an absolute in the dressage ring until the influence of Van Schaik in the 70's and 80's. He insisted that the face had to stay at the vertical in the extended gaits to maintain engagement of the hind legs and keep the horse from going hollow. Considering that was the period of huge horses with long backs it's understandable. One look at the old films of the Spanish Riding School and it's easy to see that smaller, shorter backed horses do quite well with noses in front of the vertical and the FEI directives are "nose in front of the vertical or at the vertical, not behind." The modern eye has been so trained that many dressage riders automatically see hollow backs when they see a nose out even when it isn't there.


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## deserthorsewoman

franknbeans said:


> No, I didn't, but thanks. Still no excuse for the personal jab.


*throws hands up in the air and shakes head*
.......


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## jaydee

*bsms* - you are still only seeing dressage as something on the lines of Grand Prix level
If you compete at lower level then you will not essentially have the longer stirrups and you will be able to post at trot
Dressage is not just about lateral moves, piaffe and passage.
Photo of the (UK) Louella Studs stallion Primitive Proposal winning a novice dressage class at Field House EC (UK) -NOTE - no long stirrups!!!
*Bluebird* - Love that you're doing that with the Clydes and thanks for reposting that video clip


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## bsms

"you are still only seeing dressage as something on the lines of Grand Prix level"

You are right. I certainly see it as a system of training intended to get the horse and rider as close to Grand Prix type riding as they can go. That, to me, is what is distinctive about dressage. If dressage is just about getting the horse to use its rear end, move balanced, power thru a turn...that is just riding. I cannot think of any use of a horse that doesn't want those things. And it doesn't matter if it was the Chinese in 600 AD or the cowboy of 1900 or the trail rider of 2012 - all are going to work on those before considering a horse fully broke.

If someone wants to 'take the principles of dressage to improve western riding' - the stated goal of WD - then it needs to be doing something more than that, because any decent western trainer or instructor will do that already. There are some sports like Western Pleasure that now prize a movement that is foreign to the rest of the western world, but even there they claim to care about impulsion and balance. And no, I don't see it in the videos, but that is another argument for another day. Certainly a roper or cutter or barrel racer cares about the horse using its rump, and moving balanced, and agility and athleticism.

As "just a trail rider", I worked with Mia on cantering in the arena before I tried it outside, and good thing - she gave me a beautiful canter the first time I asked, but the next half dozen were dangerously out of balance, badly strung out and so heavy on the forehand that I thought we might flip over. Darn near needed to change my jockey shorts after a couple of those rides! Balance is pretty important when you're cantering or galloping on an uneven trail with plenty of rocks around.

But none of that needs the systematic training of dressage to address. Dressage starts with good basic riding, and then moves on into a more specialized type of movement and riding, and the riding style taught supports the end goal. A new jumper is taught a forward seat and shorter stirrups because he'll eventually need even shorter stirrups for jumping. The dressage rider is taught the shoulder - hip - heel alignment because, I assume, it will eventually become important.

So what exactly does "Western Dressage" bring to the table to "improve" western riders and horses, and why does it think we need the principles of European dressage imposed on western riding to fix us? And I'll go ahead and say us, although the western instructor I took lessons from used to shout "Get on your pockets!" a lot at me...:lol:

If the pictures I showed falls within what you consider "classical dressage", then folks have ridden classical dressage for a few thousand years before the first dressage master wrote about it, and they did so in China and America without ever referencing those 'masters'. People ride like that because it is a good way to match the human body against the horse body, and a balanced way to cover ground. And if that is dressage, then most western riders already use a variation of it and there is no need to bring in "principles of dressage" - because they are already there. A reining horse is already very balanced, "collects" well enough for what it needs to do, responsive, agile - what is there that WD is going to improve on?


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## Bluebird

Dressage is just a method of riding whereby you demonstrate how beautifully horse and rider move together. Doesn't matter if you compete at top level or novice, Western or English. Everyone and every horse has to start somewhere. Does it really matter as long as horse and rider enjoy it? Anyone can do dressage on any horse. It is only really stupid people where it becomes all consuming and they have to win even if they do damage or even kill their horses in the process and betlitle everyone else. That for me is where the 'horsey set' start to sicken me where it is all about winning and not the welfare of the animal. I have had to put up with so much grief and negativity just because I ride a heavy and he does competitive dressage at novice level. I have been told 'that thing is an abomination' by one dressage rider. I was about to make a swift retort as I was sitting on my Clydedsale at the time. He obviously sensed something was wrong because he suddenly turned and my abomination, emitted a loud 'wind puff' followed by a great big dollop of horse poo all over the the toes of her shiny long boots. My husband who was with me at the time was doubled over with laughter! You give an insult to a Clydesdale and you have to accept the consequences. Anyway, here is a picture of 'ambomination' Kinclune Danny Boy (Clydesdale 18hh) who was placed first in competitive dressage (against posh horses). He is brother of Kinclune Patrick, my abomination. The guy holding him will be familiar to those from the UK - he is top British Actor, Martin Clunes who is just a brilliant guy.


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## deserthorsewoman

Maybe it's for creating a certain standard for teaching and judging. We all know there are no standards in western riding, every trainer does his/her own thing, gives aids a bit different etc. 
So, certain rules and methods are borrowed from "the old school" to teach and later on judge by. 
I think riders who have no intentions of showing traditional western events but still want to compete amongst each other showing off their well trained, happy, balanced horse can appreciate these set standards. How else could they be judged?
Maybe, as I said before, the term Western Dressage is not the best, but I couldn't think of any other. 
But, as stated somewhere on this thread, it is for horses who are not good enough to compete in either dressage or western, I find quite rude.


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## jaydee

Maybe its easier for people like deserthorsewoman and I to see as we are 'older' and grew up in European countries where your first riding lesson (assumed its in a proper school) will be your first step into low level dressage because thats what the basic seat and aids/cues are - no long stirrups - that comes later if you decide to go that far and more focus is put on a posting trot than a sitting one. Most people will never go beyond that. They might remain pleasure riders, they may go into showing or they may get involved with competitive dressage but be happy to never go above the lower levels - in a lot of cases because the cost is prohibitive if you have other commitments and for others because they prefer to stay in their comfort zone.
Some of the earliest evidence of horse riding is from the Mongolians who over ran China and so influenced them and their rule spread out into Persia and Mesopotamia so easy to see how that might have spread into the rest of Europe & Russia. Maybe we in fact owe our modern day riding to them. The modern day horse seems to have spread from there - and evolved so why not the riding style
As for WD - Anything that encourages people to have lessons will improve them. Its amazing how many bad habits you pick up when you dont have someone watching you - a friend of mine (now a pleasure rider only) realised her horse seemed 'uneven' so called a chiropractor who pointed out over developed muscles on one side - a result of her sitting to one side - she hadnt even noticed she was doing it it had been such a gradual thing that got slowly worse
In other cases WD may not make really good horses any better but it will be a place to 'show them off' - to have fun, to mix with other like minded horse people, do something different.
At the risk of being repetitive - its a way for people who want to wear their western gear and tack and stick with their quarter horses, Morgans etc because its how they see the horse as a part of American history and want to hold on to that (and why not) but still challenge themselves & their horses doing similar tests to European dressage competitors
They wont be competing against each other so comparisons in scoring that seems to upset some people seem a bit irrelevant


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## jaydee

Just to add - thanks for the pic *Bluebird*
I love Martin Clunes - I just see him in Men Behaving Badly!!!
He's president of the BHS now I understand and a great spokesman for them, I'm sure I read that he also owns a large horse - maybe a draft type?


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## Bluebird

jaydee said:


> Maybe its easier for people like deserthorsewoman and I to see as we are 'older' and grew up in European countries where your first riding lesson (assumed its in a proper school) will be your first step into low level dressage because thats what the basic seat and aids/cues are - no long stirrups - that comes later if you decide to go that far and more focus is put on a posting trot than a sitting one. Most people will never go beyond that. They might remain pleasure riders, they may go into showing or they may get involved with competitive dressage but be happy to never go above the lower levels - in a lot of cases because the cost is prohibitive if you have other commitments and for others because they prefer to stay in their comfort zone.
> Some of the earliest evidence of horse riding is from the Mongolians who over ran China and so influenced them and their rule spread out into Persia and Mesopotamia so easy to see how that might have spread into the rest of Europe & Russia. Maybe we in fact owe our modern day riding to them. The modern day horse seems to have spread from there - and evolved so why not the riding style
> As for WD - Anything that encourages people to have lessons will improve them. Its amazing how many bad habits you pick up when you dont have someone watching you - a friend of mine (now a pleasure rider only) realised her horse seemed 'uneven' so called a chiropractor who pointed out over developed muscles on one side - a result of her sitting to one side - she hadnt even noticed she was doing it it had been such a gradual thing that got slowly worse
> In other cases WD may not make really good horses any better but it will be a place to 'show them off' - to have fun, to mix with other like minded horse people, do something different.
> At the risk of being repetitive - its a way for people who want to wear their western gear and tack and stick with their quarter horses, Morgans etc because its how they see the horse as a part of American history and want to hold on to that (and why not) but still challenge themselves & their horses doing similar tests to European dressage competitors
> They wont be competing against each other so comparisons in scoring that seems to upset some people seem a bit irrelevant


hey, I'm old too! Am I in your gang? I can remember The Beetles before they were famous.


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## longride

Oddly enough, I can't think of a single book on dressage or any of the top dressage coaches that don't spend most of the time on the basic work that is being dismissed as "before" dressage even when working with horses at the highest levels. The heart of dressage training is the slow, progressive training of the lower levels and the development of correct gaits and balance. 

Many many people in the western world see horses being thrown into very demanding work without any basic preparation of the back and suspensory systems. Class requirements are developed with a mature finished horse as the model, then young horses are expected to compete at the same level. Smart trainers discard any horse that might take time to prepare. Others try to force performance and ruin what could have been good horses. Some with good clients who will back them can wait and let a horse mature. Dressage testing is progressive testing at the lowest levels that allows the horse to be developed at the rate its bones, suspensory system and mind dictate and still compete. Having gaits and muscle development that are optimal for carrying a rider can't hurt. Thus Western Dressage as a competition. 

As for collected work, I remember old film clips of horses in the Rose Bowl Parade and being shown in California in the 60s. I knew one of the women who rode. Those horse moved and carried themselves in collected gaits with suspension. Before someone tells me they were not working ranch horses, the woman I knew was the niece of Ed Connell, who trained ranch horses his entire life. 

.


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## jaydee

Bluebird said:


> hey, I'm old too! Am I in your gang? I can remember The Beetles before they were famous.


 You poor thing - you must be!!! The Rolling Stones once played in a little tiny place in our town, my friends sisters went to see them. My mother thought they were awful but she was a huge Beatles fan - loved Paul McCartney and her sister who now lives in Canada loved George Harrison and they used to argue who was best
Sorry drifted off thread!!!!


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## deserthorsewoman

jaydee said:


> You poor thing - you must be!!! The Rolling Stones once played in a little tiny place in our town, my friends sisters went to see them. My mother thought they were awful but she was a huge Beatles fan - loved Paul McCartney and her sister who now lives in Canada loved George Harrison and they used to argue who was best
> Sorry drifted off thread!!!!


Don't even get me started in that one, girls
okay, back to topic;-)


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## Bluebird

jaydee said:


> Just to add - thanks for the pic *Bluebird*
> I love Martin Clunes - I just see him in Men Behaving Badly!!!
> He's president of the BHS now I understand and a great spokesman for them, I'm sure I read that he also owns a large horse - maybe a draft type?


Martin is a great guy! never been with horses until he got married about 7 or 8 years ago. His wife and daughter are horse mad. He did a lovely programme about horses. Hope they show it in the USA. I think it was called Horsepower. He is now president of the BHS and his gorgeous horse is called Charlie. He likes Clydesdales and the photo is Danny Boy with Miss Virginia Osbourne, my Patrick's previous owner/trainer who broke her heart when she sold Patrick to me. We have remained very good friends. She is a really lovely lassie and Danny Boy is just a gorgeous Clydesdale!


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## core

I'm still not seeing the training level horse as the all encompassing definition of what dressage means. Which is what I hear when people state that dressage is the basis of all riding. Yes, components of dressage exist in other disciplines. The whole of dressage, the immense amount of knowledge and skill required to be a knowledgable and good rider in dressage, is absent from all other disciplines.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## franknbeans

core said:


> I'm still not seeing the training level horse as the all encompassing definition of what dressage means. Which is what I hear when people state that dressage is the basis of all riding. Yes, components of dressage exist in other disciplines. *The whole of dressage, the immense amount of knowledge and skill required to be a knowledgable and good rider in dressage, is absent from all other disciplines.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Again-there are other disciplines that require an immense amount of knowledge, skill, training, whatever-dressage does not have a corner on that market. I hate to break it to you. There are knowledgeable, skilled riders in MANY other disciplines, so it is not "absent from ALL other disciplines" as you state. Geez.


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## franknbeans

deserthorsewoman said:


> Maybe it's for creating a certain standard for teaching and judging. *We all know there are no standards in western riding, every trainer does his/her own thing, gives aids a bit different etc.
> So, certain rules and methods are borrowed from "the old school" to teach and later on judge by. *
> I think riders who have no intentions of showing traditional western events but still want to compete amongst each other showing off their well trained, happy, balanced horse can appreciate these set standards. How else could they be judged?
> Maybe, as I said before, the term Western Dressage is not the best, but I couldn't think of any other.
> But, as stated somewhere on this thread, it is for horses who are not good enough to compete in either dressage or western, I find quite rude.


And you too-shame on you. You seem to think that unless it is "dressage" (stated with nose in the air) is is not "worthy, and the rest of us are somehow just getting by, all "mimbly nimbly" just riding around with no direction.......WOW.:shock: So, those of us who ride western had to come up with something worthy, so we named it "dressage". Hmmm. :?


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## deserthorsewoman

I was just starting to comment on what you said about core"s post, positively, mind you.
I really don't know where you get the idea from that I think no other discipline is worthy as you put it. 
Seems like you too interpret things said just the way you want it....geez, how narrow minded people can be sometimes.
So to explain one more time, just for the record, my comment on WD was meant to maybe define why people see it necessary to have such a competition. And how to STANDARDIZE it in terms of judging. 
Nowhere did I say one or the other style of riding is better than the other. So please stop dreaming up reasons to argue with me.


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## bsms

franknbeans said:


> Again-there are other disciplines that require an immense amount of knowledge, skill, training, whatever-dressage does not have a corner on that market...


Correct. Which is why *core* said, "...the immense amount of knowledge and skill required* to be a knowledgable and good rider in dressage,* is absent from all other disciplines."

Dressage specific skill sets are absent in other disciplines because they are dressage-specific, and not general riding skill. That is because, at the risk of putting words into her mouth, *core* agrees that there is basic riding common to all disciplines, and then there are additional, specific skills for each individual discipline. And if I am putting words into her mouth, I apologize in advance and will be interested in correction.

Training for some degree of collection is common to all riding. Collected gaits, as defined by the FEI, is pretty much a dressage-only skill set - because no one else worries about doing it.
 
If the WD folks would claim they are giving an additional venue for western riders to enjoy and train their horses and have fun with some fun-loving people, I'd be all for them. After all, WP doesn't do much for me, but if it makes other folks happy and gets them riding and training their horses, it is fine with me. My beef with the WD folks is they claim they are going to teach western riders how to ride with lightness and balance, and I find that insulting - even as a very *******ized semi-western rider in a fake Australian saddle using a forward seat, I find it insulting.

We aren't your normal western rider & horse, and in truth we are way BELOW the average western rider & horse, but I don't need to study dressage to get us better. They lady who gave us the most help, over a 6 month period, was an ex-barrel-racer (turned public school teacher turned full-time horse trainer)...









​


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## Dustbunny

I think I liked it better when we drifted off for a bit and briefly commented about being older.


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## jaydee

Dustbunny said:


> I think I liked it better when we drifted off for a bit and briefly commented about being older.


 Good - So do you remember the Beatles before they were mega famous as well?
We took our youngest son to see Crosby Stills and Nash this year - not a walking frame in sight - and he was amazed by them
Leave the WD haters and negatives to unravel their knots for a while and regroup
You know - as has been said - if you dont want to do it you dont have to. Just pretend it doesnt exist and all will be happy again in your world!!!


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## deserthorsewoman

Brilliant jaydee


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## ~*~anebel~*~

franknbeans said:


> Again-there are other disciplines that require an immense amount of knowledge, skill, training, whatever-dressage does not have a corner on that market. I hate to break it to you. There are knowledgeable, skilled riders in MANY other disciplines, so it is not "absent from ALL other disciplines" as you state. Geez.


Having to have an immense knowledge of DRESSAGE is absent from all other disciplines is what she meant. Might want to re-read some stuff.

I don't have to know about cows to ride dressage, same with people who work cattle don't need to know diddly about dressage to be good at working cows.

Also about the Clydy "winning dressage". Considering the bit in it's mouth is illegal at all levels of dressage, I'm highly skeptical. It looks like the rider is turned out for showing, not dressage, as well. Apparently our definitions of "doing exceptionally well" are different as well. Anything less than high 60% to low 70% at FEI PSG/I1/I2/GP I would consider to be marginal or average. A truly talented dressage horse in today's world is capable of an 80% at Grand Prix.


I will say this again. Good riding is the basis for all riding. Dressage is a sport. To all the dressage people whining about the sport being the end all be all of riding and how no one else can ride - you are the ones that make us all sound so snooty. A leg yield, a shoulder in, etc.. are not movements exclusive to dressage and should be included in any rider's repertoire as a basis to being a good rider. Being able to half halt a horse in such a way that they shift weight to their haunches while remaining in a connection, on the contact and swinging through the back in collection in order to increase suspension, impulsion and self carriage, however, is something exclusive to the sport of dressage. Dressage is not comfortable, it is not easy and it is certainly not the basis of all riding. Name to me another horse sport which wants the horse to be up in the contact having about 10lbs of weight in each rein, having the horse being so reactive that a flinch sends their hind legs flying and a shift in weight sends them almost completely sideways and wanting the horse to be on the absolute edge between control and freedom and expression of movement. Most pleasure riders want their horses to be easy to ride and that is the absolute antichrist of riding a good dressage test. One does not get 8s 9s and 10s for riding a subservient horse that is moving in a way which is easy to sit. I let a pleasure rider hop on my PSG horse and he was immediately flying sideways because the rider was not balanced in the saddle, that is dressage and it is the opposite of what a pleasure rider wants. A good upper level dressage horse is so sensitive that he dislikes being brushed, cannot be in certain blankets or handled by certain people and under saddle feels like a ticking bomb. Dressage is maintaining the sensitivity of the horse and increasing it to a point where they are balanced on the head of a pin. Pleasure riding is desensitizing the horse to the rider until it is "well behaved". The two are opposites and one is not the basis of the other.


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## jaydee

Anebel - maybe you need to read correctly too - that Clyde wasnt the posters horse but a relative of it and the pic was taken after a showing class nothing to do with dressage
I've worked with eventers, hunters (UK Fox), point to pointers & showjumpers over the years and spent a lot of time around racehorses on my grt uncles yard - all as fit and often more fit than a dressage horse - yes some of them can be ticklish about being groomed but certainly not all of them. You are generalising far too much
My retired mare who does hardly anything is terribly ticklish, does her best to tread on you and would nip when groomed - it has nothing to do with being fit. I've had hunters who were like it when super fit and still like it when let down in the summer
We get it - you think WD is beneath you, like something nasty you trod on - well maybe you should just wipe it off your feet and move on to where you feel you best belong because I think it will grow and develop very nicely without your support.
Go and trot out your FEI dressage knowledge to all those that give a **** because I for one am totally fed up of all the negativity here


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## deserthorsewoman

I just thought about something.
In Germany, where lots of good dressage riders and even more good dressage horses come from, we have, by FN definition, shows with dressage, jumping, driving, vaulting. From beginner to highest levels. So, beginner level tests, no more than w/t/c, maybe a leg yield, or a simple leadchange, are DRESSAGE tests. 
Having said that, I don't understand, really, why people get so defensive. Maybe if you all tell me what you call the lower level tests, I understand.


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## franknbeans

Guess the OP needs to write more clearly, as it still does not seem clear to me at all, and it seems that we are all reading it slightly differently. Anebel-of course one doesn't need an immense amount of knowledge about DRESSAGE to ride other disciplines. BUT, that does not mean that other disciplines do not require their OWN knowledge. Again-I think the post is ambiguous-but then, not beg a dressage person, perhaps it is on another level.....where my head is not. (you can read that however you like.)


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## Kayty

Jaydee and others - I think you have entirely misread Anebel's post.
She wasn't giving a hint of 'holier than thou', but was in fact talking about exactly what myself and many others in this thread have referred to - that Dressage is NOT the 'basis' of all discplines and everyone should have to do it. 
I suspect people just see Dressage rider, and automatically put on their 'You're a snotty so-and-so glasses' when that is an absolutely unfair judgement to make.

Maybe I just 'get it' because I'm a snobby Dressage queen with perfectly white breeches and shiney boots on 24/7, and I ride my horse that is of the value of a horse around my perfectly manacured arena, bouncing around with my nose in the air....

*snort.... like hell, I struggle to keep my whites clean for 5 minutes at a comp! You'll generally spot me feeding up after work, in a dress tucked into my underwear, covered in dirt, flies and sweat. 
Quit with the assumptions that we're prancing around like the Royal Family


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## Cinnys Whinny

I will admit that I just "glanced" through a lot of the posts on here and it seems that Western Dressage is very controversial in many areas of the world. A Lot of the things written here (example, horses with huge shanks having full contract with two hands) made me cringe and make me think that there is a LOT of confusion by the WD and the Non WD world. 

In Nebraska, I know it's very different as Nebraska Dressage Association is a stickler for the rules. Since it is so new, the rules for Western Dressage weren't really in play but they are getting there including how many hands to use with which bit. Western Dressage Rules & Guidelines | Western Dressage Association® of America

I do see it as very different from reining but similar to working cow horse except that the horse is encouraged to use his body more like the dressage horse. We have had many clinics etc here in Lincoln Nebraska with both traditional dressage riders and western who have themselves done a lot of schooling. Basically what I have learned from them is that Western Dressage is very much like traditional dressage but geared towards a non-warmblood horse. Yes they must carry themselves with the same balance, impulsion, etc however they are not expected to have the big powerful strides of an Oldenburg but more the stride of a Quarter Horse or traditional Paint. 

I have considered trying Western Dressage at a few upcoming Schooling shows to see how differently my horse is scored in each. Because Cinny's strides will never compare to the Warmbloods, TBs and irish sport horses, it may be a better fit for him. He will still be required to use himself the same way, but the apple will be compared with other apples instead of comparing him with Mangos.

It's all just a big experiment that is yet to be properly regulated with rules adapted for the western horse and rider. But I think it will get there.


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## deserthorsewoman

I believe the problem is in the definition of dressage. WD fans and us from the old world vs riders from the "new world". For us dressage begins with the simplest of maneuver, by "good riding", as has been said, competitive dressage fans consider only highest levels as real dressage and competitive western riders want nothing to do with it.

I personally think WD is a neat idea to give riders a new possibility to compete in a sport, be it lower level now, with time higher levels also, with their horse and their favourite tack, and at the end have more educated horses and be more knowledgeable riders.


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## jaydee

*Kayty* I'm not sure that I did misunderstand anebels post all - if I did then maybe she needs to think more carefully about the way she words things
I do have every respect for the way dressage people work at what they do (though I have seen more than enough riders in my time who do just get on a valuable ready made horse in their sparkling boots and breeches too and if you've done a lot of competing then so will you) Its not just reserved for the dressage ring either.
However I have as much respect for the kid who puts in hours a day to make their mounted games pony the best in the world or the one who puts in just as much work but never will be the best in the world because they dont have the nerve or the agility but still get a lot out of what they do.
I've seen kids win in local jumping shows on a scrubby little pony that will never make it to JA (UK pony jumping) but work just as hard and will get just as much praise from me
*Deserthorsewoman, Bluebird* and I have all grown up in European countries where dressage IS the basis for all our riding, maybe thats why we see it differently. I have ridden western trained horses since I've lived here - including a WP - in english tack in what I call my 'dressage based style' and they responded in exactly the same way as my english (born & bred in England) horses do (who were all broke and schooled and ridden on according to UK basic dressage standards) so I fail to see how their training can be any different to ours.
One thing that was obvious to me several years ago when I was often roped in to 'scribe' at dressage shows was that the entries in the lower levels were way higher than the ones in the top levels - UK dressage is trying to encourage new people into the sport all the time and trying to remove the 'snobbery thats grown around it in recent years - and its competitors that are mostly to blame for that attitude not the judges or the governing bodies because they know that every bit of cash that comes in matters
It doesnt matter what horse sport you do (including non competitive trail riding) or what level you're at if you're working to do your best at it then you are just as worthy of praise as anyone else IMO.
I've seen far too much argument for arguments sake on this thread from dressage and some western riders, a lot of it not even relevant - for goodness sake what does it matter what they call it - If people out there want to do and get some benefit or pleasure out of what the hell business is it of anyone elses. If you dont like it complain to the governing bodies - see what they think of new names
Yes give your opinions - say its not for you and why not if you feel the need to explain that but do we really need all this other endless crap about why it shouldnt exist? 
Enjoy your dressage or whatever else anyone does but allow others the right to enjoy something they want to do. Stop being so selfish
Kayty - the YOU is not aimed at you personally


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## franknbeans

I agree totally Jaydee. I just think, after this thread and one previous that basically went the same route, that the people who do true-what I will call FEI type dressage-are unwilling to share the word for any other discipline. I personally think that perhaps some of the misunderstanding is that some of them look at it in a very purist sense, while others of us use it as more of a description of a style of riding? Not really sure, but they seem offended that anything not PURE uses the word dressage.


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## Kayty

Jaydee, I've done my fair share of competing, and yes of course there are the minority who are like that.
But they're in all English discplines, and I am to assume that they also exist in Western competition too. 
So again, you cannot tarnish Dressage riders with that brush, because it's actually the minority who fit your description. 
As I've said many, MANY times on this forum - very few of us actually have a 'ready made' horse. My current horse is a well bred warmblood, but I certainly didn't pay huge figures for him - why? Because the previous owner was scared of him - he spooks, bolts and gets shocking seperation anxiety. 
The people who I compete with an against are 99% in the same boat. I ride with school teachers, receptionists, payroll staff, retail staff, and most of them have worked extremely hard to afford what they have. 
And VERY few of us look 'perfect' day in day out. This is a load of rubbish - maybe US Dressage riders are far more 'snobby' than Australian Dressage riders? 


Ok and colour me confused. FIRST we are chastised for those Dressage riders on the board who claim that Dressage is the basis for ALL riding, all of the basic work that we do in whatever discipline you ride is Dressage. 
NOW, when it suits you - those of us who say no, Dressage is NOT the basis of all riding, you don't have to ride Dressage to be successful in other discplines - particularly the Western discplines - are deemed snobby because we don't want to 'share'?? 
Juice box, anyone?


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## franknbeans

I think the 2 groups-the dressage "snobs" for lack of a better term (perhaps purist?"), and the rest of us....are using the same word to mean 2 different things. At least that what I think is happening. The first group is using it as a noun......the second more as a description of a style. Perhaps a less literal meaning, if you will. JMHO.


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## jaydee

Kayty said:


> Jaydee, I've done my fair share of competing, and yes of course there are the minority who are like that.
> But they're in all English discplines, and I am to assume that they also exist in Western competition too.
> So again, you cannot tarnish Dressage riders with that brush, because it's actually the minority who fit your description.
> As I've said many, MANY times on this forum - very few of us actually have a 'ready made' horse. My current horse is a well bred warmblood, but I certainly didn't pay huge figures for him - why? Because the previous owner was scared of him - he spooks, bolts and gets shocking seperation anxiety.
> The people who I compete with an against are 99% in the same boat. I ride with school teachers, receptionists, payroll staff, retail staff, and most of them have worked extremely hard to afford what they have.
> And VERY few of us look 'perfect' day in day out. This is a load of rubbish - maybe US Dressage riders are far more 'snobby' than Australian Dressage riders?
> 
> 
> Ok and colour me confused. FIRST we are chastised for those Dressage riders on the board who claim that Dressage is the basis for ALL riding, all of the basic work that we do in whatever discipline you ride is Dressage.
> NOW, when it suits you - those of us who say no, Dressage is NOT the basis of all riding, you don't have to ride Dressage to be successful in other discplines - particularly the Western discplines - are deemed snobby because we don't want to 'share'??
> Juice box, anyone?


 Now you have me confused - I didnt say that all riders are sat on 'ready made horses' - just that some are and I was no way tarnishing everyone with the same brush 
Where is the chatising thing coming from - I am someone who does think that most riding disciplines we see today did evolve from the same place - its something thats travelled with the people as they've migrated and then evolved - but I refuse to get into that argument again - people can believe whatever they want to believe. I really dont care - in fact I honestly dont care what anyone believes because too much is getting twisted around to suit
I have had some small experience of dressage over here and they were very snobby about it but I dont know enough about the US in general to comment on them as a whole - the lady I bought my warmblood off is really nice and we still keep in touch - actually she is keen to see how the WD goes on as she sees it as money in her pocket from people wanting training so is very supportive of it
I dont know what the costs of competing in Dressage at upper levels are like in Australia or the US but in the UK they are huge - really good riders are often reaching out for sponsors as they cant afford to go up a notch without. I had a super horse that did well in One day Eventing but no way could I afford the costs of going any higher so he was sold, same happens with good showjumpers in the UK, people cant afford to go any higher due to costs of competing and the horses get sold on to those with the money


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## deserthorsewoman

Im right there with jaydee, regarding everything she said


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## Muppetgirl

I'm lost....I'm not quite sure where anyone stands, except for a couple of folks......
Let's face it, WD - you either love it, hate it or want it to change its name!


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Muppetgirl said:


> , WD - you either love it, hate it or want it to change its name!


Here's my confusion. I've always been taught that Dressage (the word itself) means Training. So, using that definition, why would anyone object to Western Dressage? Western Training? I tend to be pretty literal minded, so I'm truly not getting the objection?


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## bsms

Dressage means training IN FRENCH. In English, it does not. We beat THAT horse to death about 100 posts back, I think...:wink:


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## deserthorsewoman

Am I glad in my language we have our own word for the French word dressage: Dressur. So no arguing here


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## core

Kayty said:


> Jaydee, I've done my fair share of competing, and yes of course there are the minority who are like that.
> But they're in all English discplines, and I am to assume that they also exist in Western competition too.
> So again, you cannot tarnish Dressage riders with that brush, because it's actually the minority who fit your description.
> As I've said many, MANY times on this forum - very few of us actually have a 'ready made' horse. My current horse is a well bred warmblood, but I certainly didn't pay huge figures for him - why? Because the previous owner was scared of him - he spooks, bolts and gets shocking seperation anxiety.
> The people who I compete with an against are 99% in the same boat. I ride with school teachers, receptionists, payroll staff, retail staff, and most of them have worked extremely hard to afford what they have.
> And VERY few of us look 'perfect' day in day out. This is a load of rubbish - maybe US Dressage riders are far more 'snobby' than Australian Dressage riders?
> 
> 
> Ok and colour me confused. FIRST we are chastised for those Dressage riders on the board who claim that Dressage is the basis for ALL riding, all of the basic work that we do in whatever discipline you ride is Dressage.
> NOW, when it suits you - those of us who say no, Dressage is NOT the basis of all riding, you don't have to ride Dressage to be successful in other discplines - particularly the Western discplines - are deemed snobby because we don't want to 'share'??
> Juice box, anyone?



Completely agree! Very well said.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

bsms said:


> Dressage means training IN FRENCH. In English, it does not. We beat THAT horse to death about 100 posts back, I think...:wink:


LOL, Oh Hell, I checked out over 20 pages ago, now I'm down to skipping around and looking at various posts. Guess I'll just unsubscribe to this one and bury it.


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## Bluebird

Definition of dressage: 
The guiding of a horse through a series of complex manoeuvers by slight movements of the rider's hands, legs, and weight.

So why is everyone arguing? LOL. Its what we all do every time we get on a horse.


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## bsms

^^ Because that is not the definition of dressage. And if it were, then the WD folks wouldn't be claiming to use "dressage" to make western riders and horses better.


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## core

Well, heck then, no one ever needs to take a lesson with a qualified dressage instructor. Every single person in the entire world knows dressage.. You never, ever, need to ride a well trained dressage horse to develop the feel of what a truly straight, engaged, and connected horse feels like. You're all Grand Prix level riders. You never need to open a book, watch a clinic, or spend hundreds on lessons from a real dressage trainer, because gosh darn it all... Everyone already trains their horse, and training means dressage, so everyone knows Everything about dressage. 

Just because you do a little tiny piece of something, and don't bother to learn anymore than just those few small pieces, doesn't mean you're doing dressage. You're still not a geologist even if you like to look at shiny rocks on the beach.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bluebird

:shock:Come on guys. This is supposed to be enjoyable not have everyone freaking out about what constitutes dressage and who does what and how and with whom and who is at grand prix level and novice level and who is better. If that is what you are saying dressage is, then I don't ever do dressage on my abomination of a horse (my Clydesdale) despite the fact that he has won several events loosely termed 'dressage' and I have achieved this by subtle leg aids, weight shifting, hands, moving backwards, forwards, side stepping, collection and sometimes even to music. Ah well, must contact relevant societies to get them to stop using the term 'Dressage'. Good luck LOL


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## Muppetgirl

Deleted


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## Muppetgirl

core said:


> Well, heck then, no one ever needs to take a lesson with a qualified dressage instructor. Every single person in the entire world knows dressage.. * You never, ever, need to ride a well trained dressage horse to develop the feel of what a truly straight, engaged, and connected horse feels like*. You're all Grand Prix level riders. You never need to open a book, watch a clinic, or spend hundreds on lessons from a real dressage trainer, because gosh darn it all... Everyone already trains their horse, and training means dressage, so everyone knows Everything about dressage.
> 
> Just because you do a little tiny piece of something, and don't bother to learn anymore than just those few small pieces, doesn't mean you're doing dressage. You're still not a geologist even if you like to look at shiny rocks on the beach.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The bold part signifies arrogance.....truly straight, engaged and connected does not only belong to the 'dressage horse' nor does it belong solely to 'dressage training'......that's an insult to all of us who work very hard with our horses to develop these things with our horses.....what makes you think it's exclusive to the dressage world???


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## core

MG - Explain to me what straight, engaged, connected means in dressage. If you knew, then you'd realize how different it is from what you do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deserthorsewoman

I am seriously wondering who implants this elite feeling in some people who happen to train for upper level dressage. Is it a money thing? However, I was taught to respect all riding styles, all require training, hard work, time, sweat and sometimes tears. And I also learned not to judge something without knowing what to look for and how to do it.
I can assure you, core, straight, engaged and connected is not sole property of dressage(as you all define dressage)
By claiming it is you come across as know it all and snobbish.


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## jaydee

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Here's my confusion. I've always been taught that Dressage (the word itself) means Training. So, using that definition, why would anyone object to Western Dressage? Western Training? I tend to be pretty literal minded, so I'm truly not getting the objection?


 Now this is really going to upset everyone who cant get their head around the fact that dressage (word) means training - in the UK we also have Dressage Tests for the British Horse Driving Trials

*bsms* No dressage is not an english word, its a french word that we also use (not unlike the french have borrowed 'le weekend'. Not sure why it was adopted as a name for the competition but it might be because they were first seen as 'Training tests' - which in fact they are - tests of the horses training'. :idea:
Britain & Ireland were well behind in adopting the dressage seat as we see it now because our focus 'back in the day' was on hunting and racing over fences where you will still see that 'leaned back/forward leg style' very much in evidence
History of Dressage
Something else for you to argue about.


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## jaydee

core said:


> Well, heck then, no one ever needs to take a lesson with a qualified dressage instructor. Every single person in the entire world knows dressage.. You never, ever, need to ride a well trained dressage horse to develop the feel of what a truly straight, engaged, and connected horse feels like. You're all Grand Prix level riders. You never need to open a book, watch a clinic, or spend hundreds on lessons from a real dressage trainer, because gosh darn it all... Everyone already trains their horse, and training means dressage, so everyone knows Everything about dressage.
> 
> Just because you do a little tiny piece of something, and don't bother to learn anymore than just those few small pieces, doesn't mean you're doing dressage. You're still not a geologist even if you like to look at shiny rocks on the beach.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 I think this makes the least sense of any other post on this thread. Maybe you should try reading & researching more or take up arguing with fence posts.
You dont like being offended but seem to be making an art form out of offending other people


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## deserthorsewoman

Oh, jaydee, let's see what we've learned so far;-)
Dressage is an English word
A young horse in training at lower level doesn't do dressage
only a grand prix horse can go straight, engaged and connected
No horse other than a grand prix horse is worth anything
no rider other than a grand prix rider is a good rider

Klimke, Neckermann, Linsenhoff, de la Gueriniere, the Dorrance brothers, just to name a few, would turn around in their grave if they could hear that.........


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## Bluebird

Special Announcement:
And a Merry Christmas and goodwill to all men (and horses)...


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## deserthorsewoman

Now you would have to define "goodwill".....;-)


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## Bluebird

deserthorsewoman said:


> Oh, jaydee, let's see what we've learned so far;-)
> Dressage is an English word
> A young horse in training at lower level doesn't do dressage
> only a grand prix horse can go straight, engaged and connected
> No horse other than a grand prix horse is worth anything
> no rider other than a grand prix rider is a good rider
> 
> Klimke, Neckermann, Linsenhoff, de la Gueriniere, the Dorrance brothers, just to name a few, would turn around in their grave if they could hear that.........


Does make me wonder what it is my old mate Karl Hester does and a good friend I have who is one of the 'High School' riders at the Spanish Riding School. He once told me that dressage is all the elements of good riding using your hands, legs aids and whatever else to make you and your horse look like poetry in motion. Obviously they all got it wrong too...ROFL


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## Bluebird

deserthorsewoman said:


> Now you would have to define "goodwill".....;-)


*Goodwill* is the act of punching anyone who disagrees with you in the face!
That just has to be The Oxford English Dictionary definition LOL, LOL


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## Bluebird

Ok. I am going to settle this argument once and for all. This is what dressage is. Watch this video and learn! The Brits get it right 100% of the time. No contest.


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## bsms

Dressage is a word borrowed from French, but it has a meaning in English. That meaning, in English, is NOT "training". it is quite common for words borrowed from another language to change meaning in the new language. In English, dressage does not mean "training". You see, we already have a word that means "training": training.

Years ago, I was a squadron's "Training Officer", not its "Dressage Officer".

And for the purposes of this thread, when western dressage says they are going to use the principles of dressage to improve western riders and horses, they are NOT referring to generic horse training - and everyone here knows that. They are using the prestige acquired by the SPORT of dressage - as well as the myths that surround it - to convince people that they have a better way of training horses and riders, and that better way is adapted from...European Dressage, or the sport of dressage, whatever. But they are NOT claiming they are going to use generic training to improve the way western horses perform and western riders ride. And it is the assumption that western horses and riders need outside help, combined with what I see as an illegitimate borrowing (theft?) of the reputation the sport of dressage has built up, as being wrong with WD. It strikes me as using "lazy man's dressage" to fix a problem that western riders and horses don't have.


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## deserthorsewoman

Bluebird said:


> *Goodwill* is the act of punching anyone who disagrees with you in the face!
> That just has to be The Oxford English Dictionary definition LOL, LOL


I like that one


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## bsms

Bluebird said:


> ...He once told me that dressage is all the elements of good riding using your hands, legs aids and whatever else to make you and your horse look like poetry in motion. Obviously they all got it wrong too...ROFL


I would call a cutter "poetry in motion", so does your "old mate" believe cutting horses and riders perform dressage? Because if he does, he is once again using a different definition of "dressage" than the WD people are using. They are NOT claiming they are going to use the principles of riding and training found in cutting horse...

Do you REALLY believe the WD folks are promising to teach this:










That is beautiful, but I don't think that is what the WD people meant when they stuck "dressage" into their name and into their advertisements!


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## deserthorsewoman

It is beautiful and poetry in motion. But the horse has to have a certain handle before it can be asked to do that. So basic training is key. Getting him to be light enough in the front and strong behind to effortlessly follow that cow. One of these elements, engaging the hind to come off the front is taught in dressage. How a cutter achieves it is not the question, but it is done in dressage training. So, as you stated before, all riding is dressage, and I have to add,IF DONE RIGHT. 
Still waiting for the definition of dressage......


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## longride

Odd. One of the great producers of cutting horses once said that a top cutting horse should be able to do 3rd level dressage.


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## Bluebird

Its what the video demonstrates. That is what dressage is!


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## deserthorsewoman

longride said:


> Odd. One of the great producers of cutting horses once said that a top cutting horse should be able to do 3rd level dressage.


And equally odd, in THE dressage country, Germany, Reining is considered Western Dressage


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## bsms

deserthorsewoman said:


> ...So, as you stated before, all riding is dressage, and I have to add,IF DONE RIGHT.
> Still waiting for the definition of dressage......


First, I have NEVER said all riding is dressage. On the contrary, I have argued against it.

Second, you might want to look at the list of forums in HF. There is a dressage sub-forum, but if you ask how to get your horse to follow the cows on that sub-forum, your post will be moved. Why? Because on HF, the dressage sub-forum doesn't exist to discuss cutting horse training.

And there is a forum on riding, and that forum is also not the dressage sub-forum. Why? Because on HF, the dressage forum covers the SPORT of dressage - which is how the word is normally used in English.

Third, the Western Dressage people are NOT using dressage to mean "any training". They use it to mean the SPORT of dressage, and they prove it by trying to imitate in test and judges the SPORT of dressage. So when they say they are going to use the principles of dressage to make western riders better riders, they are saying they are going to use the principles taught in the SPORT of dressage to improve western riders - although I would argue western riders already do fine at western riding.

So no, you have no business trying to change the subject and pretending that the WD people are using dressage by its French definition. They obviously are not, and the word obviously has a different meaning in English than in French. This thread does not ask if "training" will improve a western rider or horse, because it is obvious that western training will do so. It is asking if the WD people are right, and if the principles of the SPORT of dressage are needed to make western riders better riders, and western horses better horses.


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## bsms

"One of these elements, engaging the hind to come off the front is taught in dressage."

Using a stirrup is also taught in dressage, but dressage is not all riding that uses a stirrup. Indeed, in dressage, riders ride HORSES, but that doesn't mean anyone on a horse is performing dressage.

However, feel free to tell the moderators to change the forum so that all riding and training are covered in the dressage forum. But tell me - can we discuss health issues on another forum, or does your definition of dressage encompass horse health and rider health as well?


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## core

How many USA western riders grew up in Germany. Probably not a lot.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## core

longride said:


> Odd. One of the great producers of cutting horses once said that a top cutting horse should be able to do 3rd level dressage.


Of course the guy that trained for cutting would say that. Now find a dressage trainer who agree's. or better yet, put the cutting horse in a third level test and show us the score sheet. It wouldn't be pretty.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## longride

Well the FEI definition works for me, and it does NOT require 10 lbs of pressure the reins or hypersensitivity, which are not in the best interests of the horse.

Max Gahwyler was known for his deep understanding of dressage and its history. Here's a quote from The Competitive Edge. 
" Where is the common denominator between the past [ la Gueriniere and dressage as practiced at the Spanish Riding School] and present? It lies in the basic training of the horse, up to about our Third or Fourth Level, where the horse learns to move forward, to be straight, supple, balanced, light in front, and on the bit. The methods we use to achieve this - shoulder-in, travers, renvers, simple changes, half passes, smaller and smaller circles, circles on two tracks, rein backs, and so on - are nothing more than schooling exercises and were called the Campaign School [ cavalry term ]. "

BTW, the true Haute Ecole movements were left out of the modern dressage tests because they weren't suitable for the military horse of the day. "The emphasis [of Haute Ecole] was always on collection and execution of the individual movements [ a long list only 3 of which are included in the modern Grand Prix test ] done to perfection, rather than a sequence of movements done in the modern dressage test. "

The modern dressage test emphasizes the ability of the horse to always go forward without interruption or loss of balance, which is why the transitions become so important. Not a requirement of Classical = Baroque dressage which is totally about riding in collection. 

The goal of Western Dressage is that expressed by every writer on dressage I can find - to create harmony and relaxation between horse and rider using a system of exercises (see above) that lead to a horse that is straight, forward, and calm. It's that system of exercises that distinguishes dressage training from anything else.


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## jaydee

core said:


> How many USA western riders grew up in Germany. Probably not a lot.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Do you think that all western riders in the US suddenly appeared or evolved from some other species of animal? Where did all you people come from (excluding Native Americans and Black Americans) you came from Europe - of and guess what? Germany is a part of Europe!!!
Eitan Beth-Halachmy (Cowboy Dressage) grew up in Israel and studied classical dressage under Adam George who was not only a classical dressage expert but learnt his foundation in riding as a former Hungarian Cavalrey Officer
When Eitan moved to the US his main equestrian sport was reining/freestyle reining and he was able to use his dressage knowledge to excel in it. He sees WD as a branch of reining - using the same techniques and taking them into a new sport where they can be showcased and people can compete against each other 
*bsms* Again - dressage is not an english word, it was already in use in France and adopted for the competitive sport. The English did not invent dressage, they were some way behind the rest of Europe in even adopting it - and the US were behind the English
If the English dont translate 'dressage' to mean training then explain dressage as competed in by driving people - not seeing anyone on horse back in this advanced pony pairs dressage but you have to train to do this and these competitions are about testing to see who has done the best job of training
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8lrWuN4dxk
You are constantly seeing dressage as something done at advanced level in a competition ring - did no one here start at the bottom?


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## jaydee

core said:


> Of course the guy that trained for cutting would say that. Now find a dressage trainer who agree's. or better yet, put the cutting horse in a third level test and show us the score sheet. It wouldn't be pretty.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 There are plenty of REAL dressage trainers who actually would say that and as someone who did mounted games as a child/teenager and used the same pony for pony club dressage then I can assure you they do very well in both if you take the time to put in the basic groundwork (oh thats what we call dressage!!!)
And please tell me why should the cutting horse have to compete against a third level dressage horse?
Typical stupid badly thought out remark - would you ask a training level dressage horse thats just starting out to do that and have a pretty score sheet? You are totally illogical in your thinking
Did you fly straight out of the tree into Grand Prix or something?


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## core

jaydee said:


> There are plenty of REAL dressage trainers who actually would say that and as someone who did mounted games as a child/teenager and used the same pony for pony club dressage then I can assure you they do very well in both if you take the time to put in the basic groundwork (oh thats what we call dressage!!!)
> And please tell me why should the cutting horse have to compete against a third level dressage horse?
> Typical stupid badly thought out remark - would you ask a training level dressage horse thats just starting out to do that and have a pretty score sheet? You are totally illogical in your thinking
> Did you fly straight out of the tree into Grand Prix or something?


If the cutting horse is claimed to be a third then he should be able to compete against a dressage horse trained through third. It the horse is not trained through third level dressage and instead is a cutting horse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deserthorsewoman

core said:


> How many USA western riders grew up in Germany. Probably not a lot.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How many American dressage riders won the Olympics? So, I find it safe to compare Reining with dressage, especially when that comparison comes from very experienced people.


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## Bluebird

bsms said:


> I would call a cutter "poetry in motion", so does your "old mate" believe cutting horses and riders perform dressage? Because if he does, he is once again using a different definition of "dressage" than the WD people are using. They are NOT claiming they are going to use the principles of riding and training found in cutting horse...
> 
> Do you REALLY believe the WD folks are promising to teach this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is beautiful, but I don't think that is what the WD people meant when they stuck "dressage" into their name and into their advertisements!


methinks you need to get out a bit more! It seems that this is turning into something unhealthy...LOL


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## jaydee

core said:


> If the cutting horse is claimed to be a third then he should be able to compete against a dressage horse trained through third. It the horse is not trained through third level dressage and instead is a cutting horse.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Who said that the cutting horse was third level trained? A horse thats not trained at third level is a cutting horse?
You are making no sense here at all
Do you even know what dressage is and that every horse starts out at the bottom with basic education or do yours go straight into half pass, flying changes & piaffe and passage. If thats what you think dressage is all about then I can understand why you're so confused


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## franknbeans

core said:


> How many USA western riders grew up in Germany. Probably not a lot.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't understand why this makes a difference? How many american "dressage" riders grew up in Germany? Probably about the same number.:wink: And I am guessing probably that might include you!


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## bsms

"Again - dressage is not an english word, it was already in use in France and adopted for the competitive sport..."

Again, it most certainly is now. I don't understand why it is so hard for you to realize a word might not have identical meanings in French and English. However, feel free to tell the moderators that the dressage subforum needs to include everything involving riding or training...

The Western Dressage Association says:

"*The goals of Western Dressage and Dressage are similar*. They both wish to create a better horse and rider with the use of structure and levels. *The Western Dressage horse is encouraged to work and school on lighter contact than the typical dressage horses*. While both want to see balance, cadence and carriage, the Western Dressage horse will be evaluated with the conformation and movement of today’s western horses in mind. *The Western Dressage horse will have a shorter stride than a Dressage horse* and the Western Dressage horse will be asked to walk, jog and lope as opposed to walk, trot and canter. In keeping with the tradition of the Western horse and rider they will be shown in Western tack and clothing. These are just a few examples of the differences.

It is not the goal of Western Dressage to create western horses that compete in open dressage but *to create better western horses and riders through the use and principles of dressage*."

FAQ

Now, are they referring to the SPORT of dressage, or are they saying ANY TRAINING?

Are they planning on using barrel racing training? Cutting training? Any training? Or training borrowed from the SPORT of dressage?


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## Bluebird

Just off to rewrite all the dressage manuals.. Obviously we are all wrong and should hang our heads in shame. Alternatively we could just punch each others lights out (that is an old northern english term for punching people in the face) as this seems to be what this thread is degenerating into. Does anyone actually give a hoot? I enjoy watching dressage and competing. I also enjoy watching Western riding. I don't enjoy having people go on and on and on and on and on about definitions, who is right, who is wrong, what level means what. I don't know what cutting is because you can't do it on a Clydesdale (LOL) and I basically couldn't care less. If we were really honest, neither could the horse who is taking part as long as they get fed and watered and loved! Can we get the forum back onto a nicer level? I really want to enjoy things. I have enough fighting at home.


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## core

deserthorsewoman said:


> How many American dressage riders won the Olympics? So, I find it safe to compare Reining with dressage, especially when that comparison comes from very experienced people.


How many cutting horses won the Olympics?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deserthorsewoman

Dressage is a tried and true method of training a young horse through certain exersises and movements to be better able, physically and mentally, to perform in any equestrian sport. 
Thinking about different equestrian sports, very few are actually real life anymore. A highest level dressage horse is pretty to look at but there is no real use for an extended trot, for example. A reining horse does spectacular stops and spins, but working a cow, a stop like that would send the cow off back to the herd, laughing. 
But still, to perform these somewhat exaggerated movements, a certain level of rideability is needed. And this is described well in countless books about riding. 
To achieve this level, any horse is best put through schooling certain figures, maneuvers and exercises. The only "school" who has a general standard, tried and true, since many years, happens to be dressage. To make that clear, dressage as SCHOOL, not as competitive sport. 
So why shouldn't the average westernrider benefit from this kind of schooling? 
I don't think there is any danger that one of them tries to take honor and glory away from a grand prix horse. Or a champion reiner or cutter. 

Oh, and the cutter trained to 3rd level dressage has most likely no intention to compete in dressage, but is still capable of performing 3rd level exercises. And I bet he wouldn't ask a 3rd level dressage horse to cut a cow or two.......


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## ~*~anebel~*~

I give up, regardless of what I post I'm snobby and a *****.

As far as I know I'm actually the only one out of every poster on this thread who actually is offering WD classes at my shows in 2013.

Go have fun being dressage riders everyone. Obviously the lifetime and life savings I've spent on dressage lessons, training and learning is worthless when I could have just bought a cutting horse and winged it without a single lesson and be in the same place with my riding. As an open invite you all can just call me and come out to ride my horse and then we'll see how "easy" dressage is. I never claimed any other discipline is easy or does not require knowledge (go back and read my post), I don't know why its perfectly ok to discipline bash dressage and dressage riders and claim its easy. Just because a cutting horse isn't doing dressage is no reason to get your hackles up. If a dressage horse does what a cutting horse does in either the warm up or the competition ring, then it gets eliminated for being dangerous. Food for thought.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deserthorsewoman

core said:


> How many cutting horses won the Olympics?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Duh....*shakes head in disbelief *


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## ~*~anebel~*~

deserthorsewoman said:


> Duh....*shakes head in disbelief *


Oh I remember back in the 1943 Mars Olympics, Doc Bar Olena Chip put in a wonderful test but was robbed of the gold by the Saturn team. His passage piaffe tour was just lovely. Too bad its too old to be on YouTube! I might have a copy I should try to find it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deserthorsewoman

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> I give up, regardless of what I post I'm snobby and a *****.
> 
> As far as I know I'm actually the only one out of every poster on this thread who actually is offering WD classes at my shows in 2013.
> 
> Go have fun being dressage riders everyone. Obviously the lifetime and life savings I've spent on dressage lessons, training and learning is worthless when I could have just bought a cutting horse and winged it without a single lesson and be in the same place with my riding. As an open invite you all can just call me and come out to ride my horse and then we'll see how "easy" dressage is. I never claimed any other discipline is easy or does not require knowledge (go back and read my post), I don't know why its perfectly ok to discipline bash dressage and dressage riders and claim its easy. Just because a cutting horse isn't doing dressage is no reason to get your hackles up. If a dressage horse does what a cutting horse does in either the warm up or the competition ring, then it gets eliminated for being dangerous. Food for thought.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Anebel, I don't think any of us Europeans has ever bashed dressage as sport. Quite the opposite. Nor did we bash any other equestrian sport. To get to the higher levels of any equestrian sport, a lot of work, training, lessons and not to forget money is needed. And certainly a good horse.
What we, and I guess I can speak for jaydee, bluebird, muppetgirl and longride, and some others, don't get is that some dressage riders think competitive dressage is the only sport, and nobody but them has a right to use the term dressage. If these people could see a little beyond the edge of their plate, so to speak, they would acknowledge dressage as a means to train a responsive, precise, light, well rounded, obedient horse who can perform for a long time and has fun doing so, regardless of what type of sport it's being used in.


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## deserthorsewoman

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Oh I remember back in the 1943 Mars Olympics, Doc Bar Olena Chip put in a wonderful test but was robbed of the gold by the Saturn team. His passage piaffe tour was just lovely. Too bad its too old to be on YouTube! I might have a copy I should try to find it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That was totally uncalled for


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## core

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> I give up, regardless of what I post I'm snobby and a *****.
> 
> As far as I know I'm actually the only one out of every poster on this thread who actually is offering WD classes at my shows in 2013.
> 
> Go have fun being dressage riders everyone. Obviously the lifetime and life savings I've spent on dressage lessons, training and learning is worthless when I could have just bought a cutting horse and winged it without a single lesson and be in the same place with my riding. As an open invite you all can just call me and come out to ride my horse and then we'll see how "easy" dressage is. I never claimed any other discipline is easy or does not require knowledge (go back and read my post), I don't know why its perfectly ok to discipline bash dressage and dressage riders and claim its easy. Just because a cutting horse isn't doing dressage is no reason to get your hackles up. If a dressage horse does what a cutting horse does in either the warm up or the competition ring, then it gets eliminated for being dangerous. Food for thought.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Apparently dressage people are the only people incapable of knowing or doing dressage. Everyone has it mastered through at least third, if not higher. While the majority of our riders top out at second. It's amazing how much more difficult dressage gets once you're forced to do it in front of a dressage judge.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bluebird

*Clydie Dressage*

Thought everyone may like to see an 'abomination' of a Clydesdale doing dressage! Does it really matter what horse is doing the dressage as long as it gives rider and hrose teh ability to 'show off' their best bits?


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## Bluebird

Western Dressage is just as beautiful! Why argue. This type of dressage is amazing and what fab horses. Thumbs up from me and hope we see more of it along with the classical stuff. Couldn't do this on a Clydesdale much to my disappointment.


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## Bluebird

And here is the BEST WESTERN DRESSAGE TEAM ever in living memory...Be proud of your heritage America!


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## Tessa7707

I will admit I have not read all 26 pages of this thread, so I apologize if I talk about something you guys have already discussed. 

When I first heard about WD I got pretty excited. Images of a horse performing both a western reining spin and a dressage pirouette in the same test sprang into my mind. I had hopes for a sport with the degree of difficulty of dressage without the silent stuffiness. 

And then I saw videos of people riding in your standard western curb with FULL CONTACT! NO!! So fundamentally wrong!! 

I think this sport has potential to be something fun, to bring equestrians together. 

As it stands now though, it seems like it's just dressage in western tack, no western moves are required in the test as far as I know. Which means your warmbloods in western tack will totally dominate. 

However, if a spin and sliding stop, a pirouette and a piaffe, Rollbacks and half-passes were all part of the test, I think we would see an entirely new set of horses and riders coming out of the wood works, and it wouldn't just be limited to warmbloods. 

I think points should be docked for this misuse of the curb business. If someone wants to use their dressage saddle, let them. I think the maneuvers should make it western, not just the tack.


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## deserthorsewoman

Tessa, I agree. Its still in the developing stage, so maybe in the higher levels true western movements will be incorporated. As for "any tack"...it's called western dressage, so tack and later maneuvers should be western, otherwise it could be called alternative dressage or something along that line.....


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## franknbeans

Bluebird-Outstanding! As the owner of a 1/2 clyde (who actually looks to be more than that....lol) I marvel that you can get him light and bending. Mine (he is now 22) is like riding a refrigerator, and heavy on the forehand. But then, he was trained many years ago, and at that time, it was not common at all, at least around here, for dressage to be shared. It was its own discipline. Period. 

I have no issue with dressage. I have just, over the years, happened to meet a whole lot of dressage people who were less than happy individuals, to say the least. I ride to enjoy. If I was a serious as many of these folks, I probably would have slit my wrists by now. But-to each his own. Go have fun at whatever you want to call it. I will continue to side pass, half pass, etc, and NOT call it dressage, mainly because I have no aspirations in the sport, and have had such a negative experience over the years with the folks who do it. It is just what it is, and is just part of a good basic foundation for my horses, where ever it came from. I prefer to believe it is just good basic horsemanship that gives me the ability to control every inch of my horse at any time.


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## BBBCrone

Bluebird said:


> And here is the BEST WESTERN DRESSAGE TEAM ever in living memory...Be proud of your heritage America!
> Roy Rogers and Tigger - YouTube



Complete win!!


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## gypsygirl

Tessa7707 said:


> I will admit I have not read all 26 pages of this thread, so I apologize if I talk about something you guys have already discussed.
> 
> When I first heard about WD I got pretty excited. Images of a horse performing both a western reining spin and a dressage pirouette in the same test sprang into my mind. I had hopes for a sport with the degree of difficulty of dressage without the silent stuffiness.
> 
> And then I saw videos of people riding in your standard western curb with FULL CONTACT! NO!! So fundamentally wrong!!
> 
> I think this sport has potential to be something fun, to bring equestrians together.
> 
> As it stands now though, it seems like it's just dressage in western tack, no western moves are required in the test as far as I know. Which means your warmbloods in western tack will totally dominate.
> 
> However, if a spin and sliding stop, a pirouette and a piaffe, Rollbacks and half-passes were all part of the test, I think we would see an entirely new set of horses and riders coming out of the wood works, and it wouldn't just be limited to warmbloods.
> 
> I think points should be docked for this misuse of the curb business. If someone wants to use their dressage saddle, let them. I think the maneuvers should make it western, not just the tack.


you wont see those moves because at this point WD is only at low levels, if you are interested maybe you could contact the people who started it and make some suggestions ? the current tests are just w/j and w/j/l, with a free walk, nothing fancy yet. 

i do not see why anyone would put a warmblood in a western saddle to do western dressage. they would just do regular dressage ! i know my warmblood cant jog or lope like a good western horse, shes just not built for it. dressage on the other hand she can do well. 

i do not think english saddles should be used, but misuse of the curb should be penalized. you can ride in a snaffle or a curb regardless of your horses age which i think is pretty nice.

western dressage was not made for people who already do dressage, but for western riders !


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## Bluebird

gypsygirl said:


> you wont see those moves because at this point WD is only at low levels, if you are interested maybe you could contact the people who started it and make some suggestions ? the current tests are just w/j and w/j/l, with a free walk, nothing fancy yet.
> 
> i do not see why anyone would put a warmblood in a western saddle to do western dressage. they would just do regular dressage ! i know my warmblood cant jog or lope like a good western horse, shes just not built for it. dressage on the other hand she can do well.
> 
> i do not think english saddles should be used, but misuse of the curb should be penalized. you can ride in a snaffle or a curb regardless of your horses age which i think is pretty nice.
> 
> western dressage was not made for people who already do dressage, but for western riders !


*Polite Cough* - I know of 3 Clydedales who are ridden 'Western'. They can jog, lope and do most things except barrel race. Don't underestimate your 'non typical' western horse. If a Clydedale can do Posh Dressage (despite me being told that it was an abomination by a posh dressage rider) then a warmblood can do Western Dressage. Its all about having fun, even at the top levels. Don't be too quick to judge a hrose without actually seing what it is capable of. In the end its down to the horse and rider LOL!


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## Bluebird

Believe me when I say that even when not doing formal dressage, Clydesdale make fabulous riding horses. They are just bigger than your generic 'ridden' horse and can be trained to be as supple as any other horse. I am hoping one day, my wee lad will go on to the next olympics.


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## Bluebird

I think that makes absolute sense Deserthorsewoman. You need to preserve the ethos of Western style riding. Classical or english style has its place in the dressage arena but then so should Western dressage. It needs to have a proper set of standards drawn up and a benchmark set to do it competitively (forgive me if this is already done - I haven't seen WD in the UK yet). Keep at it. I want to see more and more people push boundaries in the snobby, horsey world - just like me and my beloved Patrick (Clydesdale) do. I also have another Clydesdale called Saxon. He is still a baby and I have to wait another 18 months before he reaches 3 years. This means he can be broken to ride and he is going to be trained to ride Western! We have a trainer in the UK who resides in Wales who teaches and trains horses to be ridden Western style. He can't wait to get his hands on Saxon!LOL Who knows, Saxon and I may set the standard for an abomination (Heavy Horse) doing things we shouldn't be doing like Western. Watch out America, Roy Rogers and Trigger, and all of you guys who ride western, the Clydesdales are coming....We are trying for world domination!LOL


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## franknbeans

Off topic-Bluebird-the thought of mine doing barrels made me laugh out loud. He thinks he is really fast......ummmmm I have never told him otherwise. A friend of mine entered a point to point last year in a flat class on his-it was hysterical......they did finish, but I think the rest of the horses already had their saddles off. ;-) Just big lap dogs.

I have seen an Andalusian-a huge drafty one-doing reining-and he did ok.....the roll backs and spins were tough, but he did them!


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## Bluebird

franknbeans said:


> Off topic-Bluebird-the thought of mine doing barrels made me laugh out loud. He thinks he is really fast......ummmmm I have never told him otherwise. A friend of mine entered a point to point last year in a flat class on his-it was hysterical......they did finish, but I think the rest of the horses already had their saddles off. ;-) Just big lap dogs.
> 
> I have seen an Andalusian-a huge drafty one-doing reining-and he did ok.....the roll backs and spins were tough, but he did them!


YOU go! Never underestimate your horse, especially is he is 1/2 Clyde! You just can't go wrong...


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## deserthorsewoman

Exactly. 
I've seen so much in all these years, and im up for more surprises. I've seen Standardbreds outjump warmbloods, I've seen a Hanoverian win in western pleasure and trail against quarters and paints, Arabians cut, Haflingers beat quarters in open reining, clydesdales do western and dressage, Friesians do western, there is no limit. Good riding is good riding, and a good horse is a good horse. 
Nobody should stop anybody from doing something to grow. 
And I can see Western dressage as an alternative for all those western riders who don't have intentions to show pleasure, or reining, or any of the other disciplines offered in breed shows. 

I don't think there is any danger for the existing competitions at all. It should be fun, not drama.


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## core

Bluebird said:


> YOU go! Never underestimate your horse, especially is he is 1/2 Clyde! You just can't go wrong...


My trainer took her 1/2 draft (clydesdale) though Fourth level. That was a gorgeous moving horse. She could've gone much higher, but someone offered a price my trainer couldn't resist, so she sold her.

I recently saw a video of a full clydesdale doing freestyle dressage. It brought tears to my eyes it was so beautiful.


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## deserthorsewoman

Bluebird said:


> I think that makes absolute sense Deserthorsewoman. You need to preserve the ethos of Western style riding. Classical or english style has its place in the dressage arena but then so should Western dressage. It needs to have a proper set of standards drawn up and a benchmark set to do it competitively (forgive me if this is already done - I haven't seen WD in the UK yet). Keep at it. I want to see more and more people push boundaries in the snobby, horsey world - just like me and my beloved Patrick (Clydesdale) do. I also have another Clydesdale called Saxon. He is still a baby and I have to wait another 18 months before he reaches 3 years. This means he can be broken to ride and he is going to be trained to ride Western! We have a trainer in the UK who resides in Wales who teaches and trains horses to be ridden Western style. He can't wait to get his hands on Saxon!LOL Who knows, Saxon and I may set the standard for an abomination (Heavy Horse) doing things we shouldn't be doing like Western. Watch out America, Roy Rogers and Trigger, and all of you guys who ride western, the Clydesdales are coming....We are trying for world domination!LOL


And causing major earthquakes in the process;-)


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## Muppetgirl

core said:


> Of course the guy that trained for cutting would say that. Now find a dressage trainer who agree's. or better yet, put the cutting horse in a third level test and show us the score sheet. It wouldn't be pretty.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Core, have you ever ridden a cutting horse??? Or is that beneath you? Because I can tell you is that a good cutting horse wouldn't be beneath your butt for very long.....

Your a purist and you've as much as admitted it.......go ride your horse.


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## gypsygirl

my hanoverian would never win western pleasure. shes not built for it. not to say i could never ride her western if i wanted to, but i prefer to work with her strengths and do sports that she is built for, instead of working against her body.

as for draft horses doing dressage, i wont get into that.


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## Muppetgirl

core said:


> How many cutting horses won the Olympics?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wow:shock:


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## deserthorsewoman

:clap::rofl::thumbsup:


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## jaydee

Muppetgirl said:


> Wow:shock:


 Did you miss the Olympic Cutting Horse classes too?????


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## deserthorsewoman

gypsygirl said:


> my hanoverian would never win western pleasure. shes not built for it. not to say i could never ride her western if i wanted to, but i prefer to work with her strengths and do sports that she is built for, instead of working against her body.
> 
> as for draft horses doing dressage, i wont get into that.


note: I said "a", not "all". This particular one dominated the open shows in trail and pleasure for at least 4 years in a row. With all his 16hands. Heck, my 16.1 TB had an absolute dream jog. Lope was a different story...


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## deserthorsewoman

jaydee said:


> Did you miss the Olympic Cutting Horse classes too?????


Shhhhhh....don't bust bubbles... 
Or was it just another thing taken completely out of context............
I mean the original post about cutting and Olympics, just to clarify that!!!


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## Muppetgirl

jaydee said:


> Did you miss the Olympic Cutting Horse classes too?????


Apparently so......


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## jaydee

Muppetgirl said:


> Apparently so......


 ******


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## core

Muppetgirl said:


> Core, have you ever ridden a cutting horse??? Or is that beneath you? Because I can tell you is that a good cutting horse wouldn't be beneath your butt for very long.....
> 
> Your a purist and you've as much as admitted it.......go ride your horse.


I've ridden everything _but _a cutting horse. Unfortunately, there aren't any near where I live, and I haven't met anyone who does cutting. I'd love to try it, but haven't a clue how to get a foot in that door. 

I _have _ridden a couple of very well-trained barrel horses in competition when I was younger. I know it's not the same, but still a helleva lot of fun. They were very well trained, very responsive, able to turn on a dime, and go from 0 to 100 in half a second. They weren't dressage trained... they were well trained horses, not well trained in dressage.

I grew up riding western. Learned how to ride from my cousin who does barrel racers. I board at a western pleasure barn. I've ridden saddle seat, side saddle, hunt seat pleasure, hunter/jumper, and tried my hand at fox hunting on an OTTB I couldn't handle. I've done showmanship, western pleasure, western trail classes, etc, etc. I chose dressage after having tried everything I could get my hands on. And I stuck with dressage because it has an unlimited learning potential. The more I know, the more I realize how much I don't know about dressage. 

MG - you said you don't ride dressage, and you admit you don't know much about it. Your welcome to come take a lessons from my trainer to learn more about dressage. You can even use my horse. Or, I can try to find qualified dressage trainers in your area who have lesson horses you could use. And I'd be happy to talk about dressage with you at any time (if you'll lay off the insults). Maybe you'd be willing to help me find a barn that does cutters, or reiners, in my area that has lesson horses I could use for the first few times? Maybe we could meet in the middle of this divide instead of sitting on our respective fences hurling snide remarks? You seem like a person I could enjoy talking to if it weren't for this thread. Can we lay down the swords?


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## Muppetgirl

core said:


> I've ridden everything _but _a cutting horse. Unfortunately, there aren't any near where I live, and I haven't met anyone who does cutting. I'd love to try it, but haven't a clue how to get a foot in that door.
> 
> I _have _ridden a couple of very well-trained barrel horses in competition when I was younger. I know it's not the same, but still a helleva lot of fun. They were very well trained, very responsive, able to turn on a dime, and go from 0 to 100 in half a second. They weren't dressage trained... they were well trained horses, not well trained in dressage.
> 
> I grew up riding western. Learned how to ride from my cousin who does barrel racers. I board at a western pleasure barn. I've ridden saddle seat, side saddle, hunt seat pleasure, hunter/jumper, and tried my hand at fox hunting on an OTTB I couldn't handle. I've done showmanship, western pleasure, western trail classes, etc, etc. I chose dressage after having tried everything I could get my hands on. And I stuck with dressage because it has an unlimited learning potential. The more I know, the more I realize how much I don't know about dressage.
> 
> MG - you said you don't ride dressage, and you admit you don't know much about it. Your welcome to come take a lessons from my trainer to learn more about dressage. You can even use my horse. Or, I can try to find qualified dressage trainers in your area who have lesson horses you could use. And I'd be happy to talk about dressage with you at any time (if you'll lay off the insults). Maybe you'd be willing to help me find a barn that does cutters, or reiners, in my area that has lesson horses I could use for the first few times? Maybe we could meet in the middle of this divide instead of sitting on our respective fences hurling snide remarks? You seem like a person I could enjoy talking to if it weren't for this thread. Can we lay down the swords?


Sure why not.
Actually I've worked in most equine fields including dressage, but it has been a long time and I have not kept up to date with much in that field. That means not much though, but I do have an immense appreciation for the art of dressage.
I'm actually considering have a dressage instructor come to the barn and give myself and my horse some schooling.......bet that'll get heads turning:lol:

What area do you live in?


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## franknbeans

Bluebird said:


> YOU go! Never underestimate your horse, especially is he is 1/2 Clyde! You just can't go wrong...


Oh-mine is semi retired, and is loving life at a therapeutic riding center-they love him and he loves them. He has arthritis, and that is about all he can do now, but loves having a job with lots of lovin' as the perks.


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## Bluebird

gypsygirl said:


> my hanoverian would never win western pleasure. shes not built for it. not to say i could never ride her western if i wanted to, but i prefer to work with her strengths and do sports that she is built for, instead of working against her body.
> 
> as for draft horses doing dressage, i wont get into that.


It is incredibly childish to criticise or imply critisim of anyone else's horse no matter what you think. I and a few other people in the UK, USA and Australia ride Heavy Horses and compete at dressage. Horse riding is not all about competition. It is about bringing out the best in the rider and the horse which as you point out, you do with your horse. Like a famous American rider once said "You can train a horse to do most things, but if you don't do it with love in your heart, you're a loser!"
Have alook at this video. You can see Clydesdales being ridden English and Western! This video is AMERICAN! Why don't you just be proud of what your country is achieving by pushing boundaries.


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## gypsygirl

please tell me where i critized ANYONES horse ? except my own !

i didnt critize drafts, i said i wouldnt get into that.


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## ~*~anebel~*~

You know... in Europe, even non-horse people actually laugh to your face when you tell them that people use draft breeds (ie Friesians) for competitive riding horses in North America. "They are built to pull!!" is jested in your face. If Europe's non-horsey folk know this, then why do America's horsey folk still try to do it?? In Europe many folks ride draft crosses, or crosses of crosses for pleasure horses, but not for competition.

Think about making a guy with a linebacker build do ballet or long distance running. He is bound to injure himself!! Same with using a runner in place of a linebacker in a football game. People are good at different at different things, and enjoy doing what they are good at!! Only a crazy 6'5 250lb man would think he had a chance in hell of getting on the Olympic team for gymnastics or actually enjoy his training, or get through it injury free. It is the same with horses. I don't know why absolutely everyone is hellbent on using a pitchfork to move water here...
Yes drafts are beautiful, yes they can make lovely pleasure mounts and can be dependable on the trail but it is unfair to expect the horse to do upper level dressage. It is simply creating repetitive strain injuries in the horse for asking him to do things which are extremely hard for him OR in the case of just doing "tricks" and calling it dressage on an unfit horse then you are risking shearing ligament from bone, and especially so because of the size of the horse!!
If the image of this man doing a graceful ballet or a routine on uneven bars seems amusing to you, you will understand where I am coming from..


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## Bluebird

You are talking a whole load of rubbish


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## franknbeans

Anebel-again-an elitist attitude from a dressage person. Draft crosses do many things very well, and dressage is just one that some can. It is true that not all may be suited, but not all of any breed is suited to any one discipline, even the precious breeds that most top dressage folks use. WHy would I, or many others give a rats behind what "Europes' non-horsey people" think? Or anyone else, for that matter. Not all of us have any desire to look like we have poles in places they don't belong.


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## jaydee

Bluebird said:


> You are talking a whole load of rubbish


 Yes she is. A UK friend of mine has lessons with these people and - WOW he has a Friesian that he uses that competed at Advanced/Medium Level in Holland
oops
Dovecote Stables : Schoolmaster dressage and lunge lessons in Worcestershire


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## core

Anebel - I agree with what you're saying. It's about conformation of a breed. The breed characteristics that make the breed suited, or unsuited, for specific disciplines. I've ridden Friesians and getting them to use their hind ends is beyond frustrating, and even when they do, it's so much more difficult than for a horse that has the conformation to tuck its butt under. 

I think the friesian breed has changed quite a bit the last decade or so. It used to be mainly leg action and horrible canters. With breeding programs focusing on the sport horse market for Friesians, they're starting to produce horses that have the conformation for collected work. It still depends what line of friesian you're looking at though. 

Same idea with drafts. It's easier to find a Hanoverian that's built for dressage type collection, than it is a draft. Not that you can't find them out there, but they have a wider range of purpose than the Hanoverians are bred for.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ~*~anebel~*~

core said:


> Anebel - I agree with what you're saying. It's about conformation of a breed. The breed characteristics that make the breed suited, or unsuited, for specific disciplines. I've ridden Friesians and getting them to use their hind ends is beyond frustrating, and even when they do, it's so much more difficult than for a horse that has the conformation to tuck its butt under.
> 
> I think the friesian breed has changed quite a bit the last decade or so. It used to be mainly leg action and horrible canters. With breeding programs focusing on the sport horse market for Friesians, they're starting to produce horses that have the conformation for collected work. It still depends what line of friesian you're looking at though.
> 
> Same idea with drafts. It's easier to find a Hanoverian that's built for dressage type collection, than it is a draft. Not that you can't find them out there, but they have a wider range of purpose than the Hanoverians are bred for.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I see it more as it is cruel to ask the horse to do something it's not built for and potentially lame the horse in the process. Two reasons that horses break down - bad confirmation and bad training. There is a reason why the only horses still seen competing at international competitions at the age of 18 are warmbloods, and are sound doing the work well into their 20s. Because they are built for it, and the training has been good.

Find me a draft horse that has performed GP dressage worthy of a 60% and maintained that for 8 years, in competition. It won't happen because the horses are lamed by the time they are 14. Which IMO is unfair and cruel and is done only to satisfy peoples need to "be different" and "stick it to those dressage bitches".

It's not an elitist attitude. It's common sense and good horsemanship. Every time I've had a horse maxed out by the work I've sold or retired them to a life more suited to the horse. Just got a phone call from a new owner of a mare I gave away 6 years ago because she was not built for dressage and was not standing up to the workload. She is doing awesome and the kid she was bought for wants to start competing at low levels. Could I have pushed her to the GP? The mare was capable of 2 tempis at 5 years old. Of course I could have pushed her to the GP! But why? For personal glory?? It would not have been fair to the horse.

Who out of everyone here would have liked their parents to have forbidden them from riding and pushed them to perform at the highest levels of track and field? Gymnastics? Football? That is essentially what is happening to these horses, and as a means to what end?? Personal glory, jealousy and wanting to prove that all those dressage bitches who eat KD and old bread to afford their horses and lessons are wrong. I'm sorry but I have not lived on shoestrings to have what I do to be called "elitist" and a *****. Sorry for using a pitchfork to move straw and a hose and pump for water...


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## jaydee

Most of these people who are using different breeds are only competing at low levels - Prelim in the UK max. Thats all they want to do/can afford to do and its their entry fees that are helping keep the sport alive
I'm sure if they had intentions of going higher they would buy a warmblood but mostly they dont.
Any breed is capable of competing at lower levels and giving their owners a lot of pleasure.
Dressage at that level is going to be no more of a strain than hunting and you get all breeds out doing that twice a week all season on hard roads and muddy ground and they are still going strong in their late teens


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## Cinnys Whinny

Anabel, I think what you say makes sense, and it has triggered a bit of thought on my own horse, Cinny. He is a Paint, with a missing vertabrae, stiff sacroilliac and was born a tad over in the front knees. True he didn't start work until age 8, but am I pushing him too hard into something that is too hard for him? Maybe I am. Should I lower my expectations, maybe I should, or at least re-evaluate them and try different things.

Do I think another discipline would be better for him? Not really. Going over jumps would make his fore break down even faster and put more pressure on his sacroilliac and back. He's not suited for WP at all and would take a big effort on his part, even more than dressage. barrels, reining...again, the front would break down too fast. He's probably best suited to be an every day trail horse. But, again lower level dressage would most likely strengthen the muscles where he has problems and at least build him up to help him use his body more effectively. Anything beyond training level is probably too much of a push...which I have already concluded a long time ago. Western Dressage where he doesn't have to stride and float AS MUCH, might be better for him.

Does this make sense to anybody out there? And thank you Anabel for promoting more thoughtful thinking where it comes to my horse's future. Sorry to temporarily steal the thread.


----------



## deserthorsewoman

Anebel, I don't know where else in Europe you have been besides the 5 days in Germany with a member of this forum who lives there, but I can assure you that Friesians are now more and more bred away from the impressive cart horse they originally were towards light riding horse with the gaits and conformation along with it. 
Drafts, especially Clydesdale and Shires are more and more ridden, trained and exhibited in dressage. Go to any decent horse fair and you will see them, under saddle, in different disciplines, mainly dressage. 
And not all warmbloods are built for dressage either. It all depends on the individual. 
And even if they have the conformation, there is still no guarantee that they hold up. 10, 20 years ago it was normal seeing an 18 year old horse competing at highest levels and being, from what can be seen, sound. Today this is more and more the exception. 
We noe have the throw away society, even for horses. I cringe when I see a 7 or 8 year old compete in grand prix.


----------



## ~*~anebel~*~

jaydee said:


> *Most of these people who are using different breeds are only competing at low levels* - Prelim in the UK max. Thats all they want to do/can afford to do and its their entry fees that are helping keep the sport alive
> I'm sure if they had intentions of going higher they would buy a warmblood but mostly they dont.
> Any breed is capable of competing at lower levels and giving their owners a lot of pleasure.
> Dressage at that level is going to be no more of a strain than hunting and you get all breeds out doing that twice a week all season on hard roads and muddy ground and they are still going strong in their late teens





Bluebird said:


> Thought everyone may like to see an 'abomination' of a Clydesdale doing dressage! Does it really matter what horse is doing the dressage as long as it gives rider and hrose teh ability to 'show off' their best bits?
> 'Clydesdales do Dressage too' at Queensland Festival of Dressage 2009 - YouTube





jaydee said:


> Yes she is. A UK friend of mine has lessons with these people and - WOW he has a Friesian that he uses that competed at Advanced/Medium Level in Holland
> oops
> Dovecote Stables : Schoolmaster dressage and lunge lessons in Worcestershire


Directly contradicting yourself in one page of the same thread??

I'm not talking about lower levels, yes at lower levels most horses can find their way through. I'm talking about actually doing dressage with a goal of high levels. Not debating if a horse can walk trot and canter.

IMO it is cruel to any horse to be asking them to do things outside of their abilities. A training level test is not outside of most horses abilities. Getting up to the collection and power required in the medium levels of the sport is a stretch for a good majority of most horses, including WBs. And doing FEI levels is not to be taken lightly. I don't dare claim that my horse could cut cattle on par with the world's best and that cutters are elitist for telling me I'm smoking something. I don't dare say that my horse could do an endurance ride and call endurance riders winning at FEI levels on their Arabians "bitches" for not letting me on my warmblood win. Or saying that they are all elitist, sitting up on their endurance bred arabians and winning all the time. Jerks.


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## Bluebird

franknbeans said:


> Anebel-again-an elitist attitude from a dressage person. Draft crosses do many things very well, and dressage is just one that some can. It is true that not all may be suited, but not all of any breed is suited to any one discipline, even the precious breeds that most top dressage folks use. WHy would I, or many others give a rats behind what "Europes' non-horsey people" think? Or anyone else, for that matter. Not all of us have any desire to look like we have poles in places they don't belong.


Oh well said! I am British, not european. I am sure it was the British who invented the horse.....We have cave paintings and everything even ones with Clydesdales doing an ancient form of dressage and erm western riding which can still be seen today...ROFL


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## Bluebird

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Directly contradicting yourself in one page of the same thread??
> 
> I'm not talking about lower levels, yes at lower levels most horses can find their way through. I'm talking about actually doing dressage with a goal of high levels. Not debating if a horse can walk trot and canter.
> 
> IMO it is cruel to any horse to be asking them to do things outside of their abilities. A training level test is not outside of most horses abilities. Getting up to the collection and power required in the medium levels of the sport is a stretch for a good majority of most horses, including WBs. And doing FEI levels is not to be taken lightly. I don't dare claim that my horse could cut cattle on par with the world's best and that cutters are elitist for telling me I'm smoking something. I don't dare say that my horse could do an endurance ride and call endurance riders winning at FEI levels on their Arabians "bitches" for not letting me on my warmblood win. Or saying that they are all elitist, sitting up on their endurance bred arabians and winning all the time. Jerks.


Really no need to be rude. I find certain words bordering on offensive. Don't use them in the forum.


----------



## ~*~anebel~*~

deserthorsewoman said:


> Anebel, I don't know where else in Europe you have been besides the 5 days in Germany with a member of this forum who lives there, but I can assure you that Friesians are now more and more bred away from the impressive cart horse they originally were towards light riding horse with the gaits and conformation along with it.
> Drafts, especially Clydesdale and Shires are more and more ridden, trained and exhibited in dressage. Go to any decent horse fair and you will see them, under saddle, in different disciplines, mainly dressage.
> And not all warmbloods are built for dressage either. It all depends on the individual.
> And even if they have the conformation, there is still no guarantee that they hold up. 10, 20 years ago it was normal seeing an 18 year old horse competing at highest levels and being, from what can be seen, sound. Today this is more and more the exception.
> We noe have the throw away society, even for horses. I cringe when I see a 7 or 8 year old compete in grand prix.


I have ridden with Sabine Schut-Kery, I am well aware of what Friesians are capable of.
There is dressage, and there is dressage. Show me a draft horse capable of GP over 60% that has maintained it for 8 or more years.
I never said all warmbloods were dressage machines either. The mare I gave away because she could not handle the work is a branded Hanoverian mare imported from Germany and in the main Hanoverian studbook.

Horses are not allowed to compete in GP at 7 years old. It's written right on the top of the test. And while there are many horses competing at GP at 8 years old, it's shocking but they are usually still up there by 16, and older. Just not in the same classes with the same riders. Many are ridden in the U25 GP after a successful GP competition career, and eventually move up to the big tour again with the U25 riders. A friend of mine has a 16 year old doing the GP and he's been there for 6 years or so and showing no signs of slowing down, not all with her though, she is his second GP rider.
It's not throw away... It's development. Many horses are talented and strong enough after 5-6 years under saddle to be doing a GP. Not their best GP, but a GP. I'm riding a particularly handy 5 year old who is already doing starting work for pirouettes, because it is easy for him and fun. He gets very bored riding around doing only things that 5 year olds should be doing. But his trot work lags at about first level, the horse does not develop as per the USEF tests dictate. I have no doubts that the horse will be doing a full pirouette before he learns an extended trot and is able to carry it. Might I also mention the horse was broken in only this summer. Horses learn far faster than most people give them credit for, what lags is the strength in the body.


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## Bluebird

Ok, my Clydesdale...what can he do within his abilities? He can pull. He can trot. He can walk. He can canter. He can bend with as much suppleness in the context of his size as any other horse. He can side step. He can pirouette. He can ride in ever decreasing circles and then increase again. He can canter, gallop(not in the dressage ring though, LOL). He can walk in straight lines, he can collect himself beautifully and as good as any 'highend' dressage horse. He can do dressage to music, he can do percision dressage (within context) With me riding him, he looks lumpy because I am too old and lumpy to become good and I am a novice. With one of the British Junior Dressage Team riding him, he looks absolutely amazing and Charlotte looks fabulous on him. When he was ridden by his previous owner in Scotland (Edinburgh Games) he won dressage when he competed against your sports horses, warmbloods and every other horse doing dressage. He is tremendously fit and very, very intelligent. The only thing I would NOT do with a Clydesdale is jump him because he is too big and heavy to go over jumps safely with someone on his back but he can jump if he needs to. He is more than capable of doing dressage at whatever level myself and his professional rider can get him to. He can also plough a field at 1 acre a day! Something a TB or sports horse would find difficult no matter how good they are at dressage. Don't be too quick to judge horses who don't fit the norm. Anyone who talks about conformation as if it was the only thing that matters is talking a whole load of horse muck!


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## jaydee

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Directly contradicting yourself in one page of the same thread??
> 
> I'm not talking about lower levels, yes at lower levels most horses can find their way through. I'm talking about actually doing dressage with a goal of high levels. Not debating if a horse can walk trot and canter.
> 
> IMO it is cruel to any horse to be asking them to do things outside of their abilities. A training level test is not outside of most horses abilities. Getting up to the collection and power required in the medium levels of the sport is a stretch for a good majority of most horses, including WBs. And doing FEI levels is not to be taken lightly. I don't dare claim that my horse could cut cattle on par with the world's best and that cutters are elitist for telling me I'm smoking something. I don't dare say that my horse could do an endurance ride and call endurance riders winning at FEI levels on their Arabians "bitches" for not letting me on my warmblood win. Or saying that they are all elitist, sitting up on their endurance bred arabians and winning all the time. Jerks.


 Sorry - where was I contradicting myself. 
1. I said that any breed should be capable of doing low level dressage - which is what the majority of riders are happy to do - they use these same horses to hunt, jump, show and the friend I mentioned uses her anglo arab for dressage and train riding and does well in both. I did* NOT* say that any of these non warmblood breeds were incapable of going higher
2. I said (In opposition to your comment re. Friesians) that same friend has lessons on one that competed at Advanced Medium level.
How can that be contradictory? I was pointing out a fact BTW not creating an argument
Either read things properly or stop arguing for the sake of it and maybe you should do the same *bsms* before you jump in with both feet to agree
The majority of people have no desire to compete at your levels so unlikely to be going up against warmbloods
There are plenty of cheap warmbloods to be had now but I dont see any endurance riders rushing out to buy them - they tend to have a preference for arabs and arab crosses for a reason - they are much better at it
This thread was never about warmbloods v every other breed or a war between western and english style riding it was about western riders having the right to enjoy doing something different with their horses
Its a good job that when someone decided to use dressage as a competitive sport that all this attitude had no place or it wouldnt exist at all now.


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## deserthorsewoman

Horses learn far faster.....that exactly is what leads to the throw-away mentality. The young horse offers a lot, and people tend to take advantage of this and ask too much too soon. NOT SAYING YOU DO, which the 5 year old you mention proves
Prime example are elite auction horses, the 3 year olds. Work beautifully. Buyer takes them home and has to give him a year in pasture because he is completely out of his mind. I know several breeders who would not give a horse to the pre auction inspectors for exactly that reason.


----------



## ~*~anebel~*~

jaydee said:


> Sorry - where was I contradicting myself.
> 1. I said that any breed should be capable of doing low level dressage - which is what the majority of riders are happy to do - they use these same horses to hunt, jump, show and the friend I mentioned uses her anglo arab for dressage and train riding and does well in both. I did* NOT* say that any of these non warmblood breeds were incapable of going higher
> 2. I said (In opposition to your comment re. Friesians) that same friend has lessons on one that competed at Advanced Medium level.
> How can that be contradictory? I was pointing out a fact BTW not creating an argument
> Either read things properly or stop arguing for the sake of it and maybe you should do the same *bsms* before you jump in with both feet to agree
> The majority of people have no desire to compete at your levels so unlikely to be going up against warmbloods
> There are plenty of cheap warmbloods to be had now but I dont see any endurance riders rushing out to buy them - they tend to have a preference for arabs and arab crosses for a reason - they are much better at it
> This thread was never about warmbloods v every other breed or a war between western and english style riding it was about western riders having the right to enjoy doing something different with their horses
> Its a good job that when someone decided to use dressage as a competitive sport that all this attitude had no place or it wouldnt exist at all now.


You said something to the effect of most people on drafts do lower levels, and posted a link to a draft horse doing higher level dressage.

Dressage is, in the essence of the sport, the desire to compete at high levels. Those without the desire to compete at higher levels are pleasure riders. And I don't say that to be rude. My mother competes at low levels of dressage and calls herself a pleasure rider. She has no desire to learn a flying change, or a piaffe and does not claim to be a dressage rider.

The bit I underlined is entirely my point!!! There are many cheap horses of lots of breeds and the reason they are not snatched up is because _every horse sport has it's preference for breed types because that is what each breed type is bred for_. My point EXACTLY is that it is ludicrous to claim that a WB could do endurance!! The same reason why I am arguing and have been for the whole thread that WD is simply another way for people on WBs to get ribbons. The judging is not different from regular dressage, and a WB will place over a QH if they put in the same test. Same as in regular dressage. Somewhere this got into some twisted thing about me being an elitist ***** and oh look here's a Clydey that did a dressage test once. 
There is a reason why WBs are preferred for dressage. They are bred for it. WD is just dressage in different tack. And you can use a curb with two hands.

Of course everyone can do whatever they want with their horses. But WBs will dominate the sport they are bred for, be that dressage or jumping. Same with QHs will be the best at working cattle, Arabs will make the best endurance horses. To argue any differently is not "open minded", it's ignorance. I don't use a toothbrush to hammer a nail into a board because I do eventually want to get the nail into the board.


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## jaydee

And warmbloods tend to be more prone to OCD than other breeds
http://www.ker.com/library/EquineReview/2003/Nutrition/N17.pdf


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## ~*~anebel~*~

deserthorsewoman said:


> Horses learn far faster.....that exactly is what leads to the throw-away mentality. The young horse offers a lot, and people tend to take advantage of this and ask too much too soon. NOT SAYING YOU DO, which the 5 year old you mention proves
> Prime example are elite auction horses, the 3 year olds. Work beautifully. Buyer takes them home and has to give him a year in pasture because he is completely out of his mind. I know several breeders who would not give a horse to the pre auction inspectors for exactly that reason.


So the fact that the horse is likely on track to be doing the GP by 8 is??? You contradict yourself. In a regular progression of dressage training where the horse is prepped for flying changes by the end of their 5th year, due to start competing 3rd/4th by 6 and in the PSG by 7, for a talented horse the GP at 8 is not a stretch. For me, that is not pushing too fast on the right horse, this horse is one of those. The horse already offers half steps and changes.

The 3 year olds in auctions I will not say anything about as I feel it's not going to add anything to the conversation. However, I will say that any horse broken in at 3 years old deserves some months off to grow before being put into regular work by mid 4, some of it is not the fault of the auction as well.


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## ~*~anebel~*~

jaydee said:


> And warmbloods tend to be more prone to OCD than other breeds
> http://www.ker.com/library/EquineReview/2003/Nutrition/N17.pdf


QHs of certain lines are prone to far more deadly diseases, Drafts to EPSM, grey horses to cancer, etc...

Your point?


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## deserthorsewoman

All the arguments here started when some people said it can't be called dressage , can't be judged like dressage by dressage judges and can't be done in their dressage arena. 
We now, hopefully, agree that lower level dressage IS dressage, that nobody wants to take anything away from upper level dressage riders. 
And a warmblood has a chance in WD as long as it can perform the western working gaits jog and lope, not only trot and canter. I wouldn't go as far as saying it would win automatically.


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## jaydee

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> You said something to the effect of most people on drafts do lower levels, and posted a link to a draft horse doing higher level dressage.
> *No*
> *I said that any breed is capable of competing at lower levels*
> *and*
> *In response to your point that Friesians as draft horses are no good for anything above lower levels I posted the other link*
> *Again - take the trouble to read things properly*
> Dressage is, in the essence of the sport, the desire to compete at high levels. Those without the desire to compete at higher levels are pleasure riders. And I don't say that to be rude. My mother competes at low levels of dressage and calls herself a pleasure rider. She has no desire to learn a flying change, or a piaffe and does not claim to be a dressage rider.
> *In the UK if you compete in dressage at any level you are a dressage rider. *
> The bit I underlined is entirely my point!!! There are many cheap horses of lots of breeds and the reason they are not snatched up is because _every horse sport has it's preference for breed types because that is what each breed type is bred for_. My point EXACTLY is that it is ludicrous to claim that a WB could do endurance!!
> *I thought you said your warmblood could give an endurance horse a run for its money?*
> The same reason why I am arguing and have been for the whole thread that WD is simply another way for people on WBs to get ribbons. The judging is not different from regular dressage, and a WB will place over a QH if they put in the same test.
> *Isnt the whole point of western dressage that it is for people on mostly western type breeds and not warmbloods? I somehow cant see why a bunch of warmblood riding conv dressage riders would want to rush out and do WD instead just as I dont see the sort of people who want to do WD giving up their beloved QH or Morgans to get a warmblood. These people have a passion for these horses*
> Same as in regular dressage. Somewhere this got into some twisted thing about me being an elitist ***** and oh look here's a Clydey that did a dressage test once.
> There is a reason why WBs are preferred for dressage. They are bred for it.
> *Actually they were bred for the military*
> WD is just dressage in different tack. And you can use a curb with two hands.
> *I have always ridden in a double bridle with two hands - there was a curb involved in that - in fact two bits, they get used in showring classes too - is that wrong (I would agree in some hands but the same applies with any bit)*
> Of course everyone can do whatever they want with their horses. But WBs will dominate the sport they are bred for, be that dressage or jumping. Same with QHs will be the best at working cattle, Arabs will make the best endurance horses. To argue any differently is not "open minded", it's ignorance. I don't use a toothbrush to hammer a nail into a board because I do eventually want to get the nail into the board.


*No one has ever argued that WB's dont dominate the conv dressage sport *


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## ~*~anebel~*~

deserthorsewoman said:


> All the arguments here started when some people said it can't be called dressage , can't be judged like dressage by dressage judges and can't be done in their dressage arena.
> We now, hopefully, agree that lower level dressage IS dressage, that nobody wants to take anything away from upper level dressage riders.
> And a warmblood has a chance in WD as long as it can perform the western working gaits jog and lope, not only trot and canter. I wouldn't go as far as saying it would win automatically.


"working jog" and "working lope" are essentially the same as our working trot and canter. In the rules it states something about "to the horse's ability" I think. But anyways, as the WDAA representative doing the clinic in my area put it to the judges "It should be judged the exact same as a normal dressage test". Too slow/unrhythmical is penalized, head too low is penalized, behind the bit is penalized, shuffling gaits are penalized, etc..

WDAA uses USDF judges. It is judged like a dressage test. Honestly the outcome will be the exact same as a normal dressage class and eventually people with non-traditional dressage breeds will be complaining again how their horses are beat by the elitist snobs on horses bred for dressage, just now it's in different tack. As was suggested in a previous WD thread, it would be far more "WD" like to have a western gaming event, like pole bending or barrels, and then go do your dressage test and the combined score determines placing. Like in eventing.


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## Bluebird

Cows do dressage....This was my husband riding Rodney our prize bull. Now tell me his conformation is all wrong and he isn't doing it right. In fact I'll send old Rodders round and you can tell him yourself....


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## Bluebird

Here is my dressage contender! He's called Rodney and anyone who tells me his conformation is wrong...I'll send Rodders round and you can tell him yourself.
Schweppes Bull - YouTube


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## jaydee

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> QHs of certain lines are prone to far more deadly diseases, Drafts to EPSM, grey horses to cancer, etc...
> 
> Your point?


 That their ability to deal with the strains of high level dressage might not be any better than another breed
What they do have is a natural length of stride and elevation that at higher levels make it so much easier for the rider to get results but not essentially any less strain on their joints especially in the ones that are pushed on too fast as young horses simply because it does appear to be more natural for them.
You must know yourself that when you go from riding another less elevated breed to a warmblood the difference at first is quite amazing


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## Muppetgirl

Had to quote this:

'Of course, there's a certain type of person who feels that anything which becomes mainstream has to be rejected immediately. And that's part of the snobbery, hierarchy and elitism.' 
Author unknown

Makes sense.....


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## ~*~anebel~*~

Here's my Clydesdales having a snowball fight - aren't they cute!! The small ones are Burt, Jack, Jane and Curtis and the big ones are Kid, Buck and Josie.


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## Muppetgirl

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> "working jog" and "working lope" are essentially the same as our working trot and canter. In the rules it states something about "to the horse's ability" I think. But anyways, as the WDAA representative doing the clinic in my area put it to the judges "It should be judged the exact same as a normal dressage test". Too slow/unrhythmical is penalized, head too low is penalized, behind the bit is penalized, shuffling gaits are penalized, etc..
> 
> WDAA uses USDF judges. It is judged like a dressage test. Honestly the outcome will be the exact same as a normal dressage class and eventually people with non-traditional dressage breeds will be complaining again how their horses are beat by the elitist snobs on horses bred for dressage, just now it's in different tack. As was suggested in a previous WD thread, it would be far more "WD" like to have a western gaming event, like pole bending or barrels, and then go do your dressage test and the combined score determines placing. Like in eventing.


No.....let's just have have WD for Western horses......that way it won't be a ribbon sweep for you....as you seem to think that's what will happen....


----------



## ~*~anebel~*~

jaydee said:


> That their ability to deal with the strains of high level dressage might not be any better than another breed
> What they do have is a natural length of stride and elevation that at higher levels make it so much easier for the rider to get results but not essentially any less strain on their joints especially in the ones that are pushed on too fast as young horses simply because it does appear to be more natural for them.
> You must know yourself that when you go from riding another less elevated breed to a warmblood the difference at first is quite amazing


So because a higher fraction of WBs develop a bone disease then the whole breed group is crap??
Horses with OCD are usually field ponies. The ones with OCD are not the ones you see at the Olympics.

QHs fall over dead from HYPP?? Oh quick all of them are crap for reining.
EPSM kills Draft horses? Oh no they must all be terrible at pulling things!

It is basic geometry and physics. A horse who is biomechanically able to easily perform a movement will find less strain with it then a horse who is not. Of course we still need to properly condition the horse, that's why I said "two things break down horses, bad conformation and bad training".
Get a well conformed horse with good training and then you get a Bonfire that is still winning at international levels at the age of 18.


----------



## core

deserthorsewoman said:


> All the arguments here started when some people said it can't be called dressage , can't be judged like dressage by dressage judges and can't be done in their dressage arena.
> We now, hopefully, agree that lower level dressage IS dressage, that nobody wants to take anything away from upper level dressage riders.
> And a warmblood has a chance in WD as long as it can perform the western working gaits jog and lope, not only trot and canter. I wouldn't go as far as saying it would win automatically.


I didn't say they couldn't use dressage everything (I'm assuming me since I posted the replies listing all the dressage specific stuff WD uses). I was saying that they need to adhere to the principles and concepts of dressage if they want to do dressage (in any tack they want). Current examples of WD do not show the basics of dressage training. That was all I was trying to say. Not that they couldn't in time create a broader understanding of the basics of dressage training and apply it correctly to a western horse if the rider so chooses. I just wish WDA would remove the slower gaits so the horse could be allowed to move out freely.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ~*~anebel~*~

Muppetgirl said:


> No.....let's just have have WD for Western horses......that way it won't be a ribbon sweep for you....as you seem to think that's what will happen....


Define "western horses".

What happens when you tell all the arabian people they cant put western tack on their horses, or draft people, or gaited horse breeds??

Anyone is apt to put whatever tack they want on their horse and go compete in whatever they want. It is the subjectivity of the judges that decides who will win. If dressage judges are used for WD and told "judge it exactly like a dressage test" it's no small wonder what is going to happen..


----------



## deserthorsewoman

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> "working jog" and "working lope" are essentially the same as our working trot and canter. In the rules it states something about "to the horse's ability" I think. But anyways, as the WDAA representative doing the clinic in my area put it to the judges "It should be judged the exact same as a normal dressage test". Too slow/unrhythmical is penalized, head too low is penalized, behind the bit is penalized, shuffling gaits are penalized, etc..
> 
> WDAA uses USDF judges. It is judged like a dressage test. Honestly the outcome will be the exact same as a normal dressage class and eventually people with non-traditional dressage breeds will be complaining again how their horses are beat by the elitist snobs on horses bred for dressage, just now it's in different tack. As was suggested in a previous WD thread, it would be far more "WD" like to have a western gaming event, like pole bending or barrels, and then go do your dressage test and the combined score determines placing. Like in eventing.


now reading that, I ask myself why would dressage people go so low and do WD....to prove a point? And which one?
Nothing wrong with a warmblood being ridden western, and capable of jogging and loping, but judging it as a dressage horse in a western event is just plain wrong and if I was the organizer of that show, I certainly wouldn't get that judge back. 

We'll see how it evolves over time.


----------



## Muppetgirl

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Define "western horses".
> 
> What happens when you tell all the arabian people they cant put western tack on their horses, or draft people, or gaited horse breeds??
> 
> Anyone is apt to put whatever tack they want on their horse and go compete in whatever they want. It is the subjectivity of the judges that decides who will win. If dressage judges are used for WD and told "judge it exactly like a dressage test" it's no small wonder what is going to happen..


What I'm saying is have breed registered classes.....like the AQHA etc.....then why not just put all the high point earners from all registered breeds in the ring once a year?? With reining you have the AQHA, for the quarter horses, then you have the APHA for the paint horses who have their own reining circuit etc....

It would be interesting to have something like that with the warmbloods......then have a battle of the breeds once a year.....that would be interesting!

As for breed specifics in terms of what they can and cannot do, any breed can have a decent go at 'most' things.....as for the Arabian horses, I'm sure they probably have their own WD circuit going already.....let's throw all the high point earners from every breed that has a WD circuit in the ring once a year.....that'd be fun!


----------



## ~*~anebel~*~

Muppetgirl said:


> What I'm saying is have breed registered classes.....like the AQHA etc.....then why not just put all the high point earners from all registered breeds in the ring once a year?? With reining you have the AQHA, for the quarter horses, then you have the APHA for the paint horses who have their own reining circuit etc....
> 
> It would be interesting to have something like that with the warmbloods......then have a battle of the breeds once a year.....that would be interesting!


Considering the WB breeds are so muddled, especially here in the states, I'm not sure it would be so interesting.
My horse is Swedish branded but by a Hanoverian and out of a Danish mare. What breed would he compete for?

RE: DHW

How is it "low" for people on WBs to want to do WD?? I think it would be fun to find a western saddle and go do some different tests and get to wear a fancy rail shirt. How is it NOT elitist to say that?? Is it "low' of people with western breeds of horses to go in normal dressage?? I'm the elitist *****, really??

I'm saying that judges are instructed to judge WD as a dressage class, it's in the rule book. Please, go read it. Email the WDAA, they are super nice. If you didn't bring back judges who judged WD as a dressage class then you would have no judges left to judge it as you must use a USEF sanctioned dressage judge to judge the classes!


----------



## Cinnys Whinny

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> I think it would be fun to find a western saddle and go do some different tests and get to wear a fancy rail shirt.


Ha ha, that sounds different than the Western Dressage I saw last year at our schooling shows. Most of the people who showed up for WD appeared to be wearing the every day riding garb...stained blue jeans, beat up boots, long sleeve collard shirt and even their saddle pads were every day pads and not even "show" pads that you usually see at other Western Shows. One person wore her WP garb.


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## ~*~anebel~*~

Cinnys Whinny said:


> Ha ha, that sounds different than the Western Dressage I saw last year at our schooling shows. Most of the people who showed up for WD appeared to be wearing the every day riding garb...stained blue jeans, beat up boots, long sleeve collard shirt and even their saddle pads were every day pads and not even "show" pads that you usually see at other Western Shows. One person wore her WP garb.


I would blind the judge with the amount of bling on me. :lol: 
I secretly lust for my rail shirts of old.


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## deserthorsewoman

core said:


> I didn't say they couldn't use dressage everything (I'm assuming me since I posted the replies listing all the dressage specific stuff WD uses). I was saying that they need to adhere to the principles and concepts of dressage if they want to do dressage (in any tack they want). Current examples of WD do not show the basics of dressage training. That was all I was trying to say. Not that they couldn't in time create a broader understanding of the basics of dressage training and apply it correctly to a western horse if the rider so chooses. I just wish WDA would remove the slower gaits so the horse could be allowed to move out freely.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Honestly I can't remember who said it and refuse to go look;-)
I don't think the slower gaits should be removed as they are the western part. I also think there shouldn't be too much emphasis put on spectacular extended gaits, rather free-er and more forward.


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## Bluebird

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Define "western horses".
> 
> What happens when you tell all the arabian people they cant put western tack on their horses, or draft people, or gaited horse breeds??
> 
> Anyone is apt to put whatever tack they want on their horse and go compete in whatever they want. It is the subjectivity of the judges that decides who will win. If dressage judges are used for WD and told "judge it exactly like a dressage test" it's no small wonder what is going to happen..


A Western Horse is a horse that lives 'out west' in America isn't it? In fact, any horse that lives in America is Western which means...they are all Western horses. End of arguments...LOL or should I be saying 'Define America' - which was a British Colony...which means that all British Horses are Western Horses too. Gosh I'm amazed. Must just go off and write a book!


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## SouthernTrails

Bluebird said:


> Here is my dressage contender! He's called Rodney and anyone who tells me his conformation is wrong...I'll send Rodders round and you can tell him yourself.
> Schweppes Bull - YouTube


Wow, you have a Bull that does Schweppes Commercials?


hmmmmmm 

.


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## deserthorsewoman

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Considering the WB breeds are so muddled, especially here in the states, I'm not sure it would be so interesting.
> My horse is Swedish branded but by a Hanoverian and out of a Danish mare. What breed would he compete for?
> 
> RE: DHW
> 
> How is it "low" for people on WBs to want to do WD?? I think it would be fun to find a western saddle and go do some different tests and get to wear a fancy rail shirt. How is it NOT elitist to say that?? Is it "low' of people with western breeds of horses to go in normal dressage?? I'm the elitist *****, really??
> 
> I'm saying that judges are instructed to judge WD as a dressage class, it's in the rule book. Please, go read it. Email the WDAA, they are super nice. If you didn't bring back judges who judged WD as a dressage class then you would have no judges left to judge it as you must use a USEF sanctioned dressage judge to judge the classes!


Having a hard time following on my cell

In going low was meant for those, and im sure they exist, who would go and compete in WD to "show them how a real horse wins all the time". Im sure you know the one or the other of that kind. And don't start the elitist thing again please, you are currently proving that you are not.
If the Rulebook states that everything should be judged as dressage is, without taking into consideration the western elements, then something is wrong with it.


----------



## Bluebird

SouthernTrailsGA said:


> Wow, you have a Bull that does Schweppes Commercials?
> 
> 
> hmmmmmm
> 
> .


Yep! Sure do (LOL). Isn't he good? 
Also Have a couple of horses (Clydesdales) that do fashion photoshoots (that last bit is actually true!)


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## ~*~anebel~*~

deserthorsewoman said:


> Having a hard time following on my cell
> 
> In going low was meant for those, and im sure they exist, who would go and compete in WD to "show them how a real horse wins all the time". Im sure you know the one or the other of that kind. And don't start the elitist thing again please, you are currently proving that you are not.
> If the Rulebook states that everything should be judged as dressage is, without taking into consideration the western elements, then something is wrong with it.


I've never been elitist. I never will be. People somehow think that saying a certain breed is going to excel at a sport is elitist. I can't change other people's opinions.

Anyways, the underlined bit is the point that I have been trying to make this entire thread, and the thread before it, and the one before that and before that. But apparently I'm just an elitist *person for pointing it out. So, you're welcome. I suffered through being called an elitist *person to point out that your new fancy sport is going to be judged exactly like my old fancy sport that is really easy yet everyone on a non traditional breed complains about the people that win it being elitist *person on their elitist horses.


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## deserthorsewoman

You just won the competition of how many times one can incorporate the word "elitist" in a sentence and I hereby declare you a member of the elitist elite..
so there


----------



## Bluebird

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> I've never been elitist. I never will be. People somehow think that saying a certain breed is going to excel at a sport is elitist. I can't change other people's opinions.
> 
> Anyways, the underlined bit is the point that I have been trying to make this entire thread, and the thread before it, and the one before that and before that. But apparently I'm just an elitist *person for pointing it out. So, you're welcome. I suffered through being called an elitist *person to point out that your new fancy sport is going to be judged exactly like my old fancy sport that is really easy yet everyone on a non traditional breed complains about the people that win it being elitist *person on their elitist horses.


Its not good to keep writing certain words in posts. Anyone who called you a bad name is the lowest of the low and they make me sick. There are more cats on two legs that there were ever on four! Everyone has an opinion on one thing or another and a healthy discussion on points can be quite enlightening. However, lets leave the more 'colourful language' to other forums and keep this one up beat where we can 'punch each other in the face' but still laugh about it and I mean this in the nicest possible way. HUGS


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## gypsygirl

i think that a lot of you are missing the point that WD was made to welcome more people into the dressage community !


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## kitten_Val

_*Folks, it's time to calm down or thread will be closed. *_

I think we are all old enough to have a _*civil discussion*_. And just a _*friendly reminder of the Forum rules*_: if you disagree, there is no need to go personal and to insult other people by calling their opinion "stupid", "rubbish", "you don't know any better", etc. There are other ways to disagree or present your own opinion.


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## ~*~anebel~*~

kitten_Val said:


> _*Folks, it's time to calm down or thread will be closed. *_
> 
> I think we are all old enough to have a _*civil discussion*_. And just a _*friendly reminder of the Forum rules*_: if you disagree, there is no need to go personal and to insult other people by calling their opinion "stupid", "rubbish", "you don't know any better", etc. There are other ways to disagree or present your own opinion.


But calling people elitist b*** is encouraged. Especially when they do such an easy sport.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SouthernTrails

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> But calling people elitist b**** is encouraged. Especially when they do such an easy sport.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Anebel, I have already edited one of your posts with this elitist b*** stuff, show me where someone has called you an elitist B*** or anyone else and they will be getting some time off too

.


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## ~*~anebel~*~

SouthernTrailsGA said:


> Anebel, I have already edited one of your posts with this elitist b*** stuff, show me where someone has called you an elitist B*** or anyone else and they will be getting some time off too
> 
> .


Might as well ban everyone who's done a lick of dressage because according to franknbeans we're all elitists. It's ok though, the name calling has persisted through thread after thread so by this point I've accepted that this forums mods are ok with it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SouthernTrails

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Might as well ban everyone who's done a lick of dressage because according to franknbeans we're all elitists. It's ok though, the name calling has persisted through thread after thread so by this point I've accepted that this forums mods are ok with it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Elitist is a term of endearment :lol:

Mods do not like personal attacks, but we cannot be everywhere all the time.

2 threads have had a half dozen reports about etiquette today and they are all involving Dressage.

I would like everyone to discuss things more peaceably and hope everyone will *quit with the stereotyping* ... please....:wink:


.


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## core

jaydee said:


> And warmbloods tend to be more prone to OCD than other breeds
> http://www.ker.com/library/EquineReview/2003/Nutrition/N17.pdf


That article wasn't stating that warmbloods as a breed are more prone to OCD than other breeds. It was stating that in warmbloods, younger, immature warmbloods are more prone to OCD than warmbloods at other ages. 



> http://www.clydevetgroup.co.uk/equine/ocd-vet-article.pdf
> Clinical prevalence of OCD is usually between 5% and 25%* in any
> given horse population *and is considerably lower in pony breeds.


The next article was talking about nutritional imbalances but also said: 


> Genetics may play a role as there is an *increase *incidence of OCD in Warmblood breeds, *Quarter Horses and Standardbreds.*
> http://www.newenglandequine.com/Articles/Developmental Orthopedic Disease.pdf


----------



## ~*~anebel~*~

Then what's the point of posting the articles? I'm really not seeing what you're getting at...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jaydee

_


core said:



That article wasn't stating that warmbloods as a breed are more prone to OCD than other breeds. It was stating that in warmbloods, younger, immature warmbloods are more prone to OCD than warmbloods at other ages.

Click to expand...

_


core said:


> I posted the article as it does say that because of their build they are more prone to OCD developing as youngsters than the lighter breeds. It was agreeing more with *anebels *comment about not pushing them too hard. They can look far more mature than they are and can be carrying a lot of body on those limbs Because they have natural elevated paces and extension people are tempted to ask too much of them at an early age. They may not be competing at anything below level 3 but many are being schooled at that and above
> Most people I know that buy a warmblood get X rays because they are aware of the risks and how important healthy joints are in a horse they may want to 'go to the top with
> OCD is something that is high risk when the joints are forming in a young horse from foals upwards that gains weight too fast and too much - and warmblood types do have a tendency to do that if not carefully managed


----------



## core

jaydee said:


> _
> 
> 
> core said:
> 
> 
> 
> That article wasn't stating that warmbloods as a breed are more prone to OCD than other breeds. It was stating that in warmbloods, younger, immature warmbloods are more prone to OCD than warmbloods at other ages.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> _ I posted the article as it does say that because of their build they are more prone to OCD developing as youngsters than the lighter breeds. It was agreeing more with *anebels *comment about not pushing them too hard. They can look far more mature than they are and can be carrying a lot of body on those limbs Because they have natural elevated paces and extension people are tempted to ask too much of them at an early age. They may not be competing at anything below level 3 but many are being schooled at that and above
> Most people I know that buy a warmblood get X rays because they are aware of the risks and how important healthy joints are in a horse they may want to 'go to the top with
> OCD is something that is high risk when the joints are forming in a young horse from foals upwards that gains weight too fast and too much - and warmblood types do have a tendency to do that if not carefully managed


I agree with your main point. I think it's far too prevalent to see warmbloods being worked at a level their bodies aren't ready to handle yet because they're so athletically bred. 

However, it was my understanding that nutrition in foals had more to do with OCD occurrence than workload did. I've been reading up on OCD lately, and mainly what the research is saying is that exercise can cause the abnormal cartilage/bone to break off. But the abnormal cartilage or bone was caused by nutritional imbalances, overfeeding as a foal, or possibly a genetic link that researches aren't very sure of yet.

It wasn't the too hard work that caused the abnormalities, horses already had OCD and the exercise exacerbated the issue.

That wasn't to disprove your main point. I was researching it due to a warmblood we've been working with, and had the articles bookmarked already. Thought I'd share what I learned. Totally not relevant to the discussion at hand. I'll wander off now.


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## core

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Then what's the point of posting the articles? I'm really not seeing what you're getting at...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Was that to me?


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## Kayty

You'ore correct Core. OCD is due to nutritional issues, lack of ability to exercise, and too much weight, on a young horse. It doesn't start due to work load - what too much work does, is fry their brains and then damage their joints. Different to OCD.


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## QHriderKE

I already spent time on this topic in the past, and it isnt worth the energy to do it again XD

http://www.horseforum.com/western-riding/western-dressage-113011/


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## smrobs

I'll be honest, I didn't read the entire 9 page thread so I have no idea what all debate has gone on or what has already been said. I'll also make my post short and sweet.

Using dressage principles (as a training method, not as a discipline) on a western horse to achieve a more balanced carriage and responsive attitude is something that almost every good horseman does anyway.

As a competitive discipline, what I've seen of it, it is nothing more than a *******ization of both disciplines that is a less than mediocre example of either.


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## jaydee

core said:


> I agree with your main point. I think it's far too prevalent to see warmbloods being worked at a level their bodies aren't ready to handle yet because they're so athletically bred.
> 
> However, it was my understanding that nutrition in foals had more to do with OCD occurrence than workload did. I've been reading up on OCD lately, and mainly what the research is saying is that exercise can cause the abnormal cartilage/bone to break off. But the abnormal cartilage or bone was caused by nutritional imbalances, overfeeding as a foal, or possibly a genetic link that researches aren't very sure of yet.
> 
> It wasn't the too hard work that caused the abnormalities, horses already had OCD and the exercise exacerbated the issue.
> 
> That wasn't to disprove your main point. I was researching it due to a warmblood we've been working with, and had the articles bookmarked already. Thought I'd share what I learned. Totally not relevant to the discussion at hand. I'll wander off now.


 As far as my understanding goes its a combination of both with a handful of genetics thrown in
A lot of these breeds that have been developed for a demand are often the result of crossing a heavier breed with a TB and maybe some arabian. The original Hanoverain for instance was a much heavier legged animal that was used as a draft horse that could be multi purpose, the military took to the breed and then its popularity grew for dressage and showjumping, but people wanted something with the body but finer legs so more TB was introduced. Heavy horses tend to grow more slowly and take longer to mature, TB's can look like 3 years olds when they're much younger so I think the result was a fast growing horse with a lot of body on quite fine legs. You work them too young and if they've not been given the right nutrition or allowed to get overweight then those joints just cant take the strain if they get pushed too hard
You see exactly the same problem in UK show hunters - a pony that needs a big body like a welsh cob to look the part but no one wants thick feathered legs or a high knee action so its then crossed with small TB. 
Show horses have to look 'round' not lean and they are in the ring from 3 years old and often suffer with joint problems, splints etc later on.


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## deserthorsewoman

You're right on, jaydee. I remember well when they first started using TB's for refining. Usually a warmblood grew up on pasture in summer and hay and a tiny bit of oats in the winter. When TB stallions came into the breed, foals just wouldn't grow right with pasture only, so grain had to be used. Now we have a market which wants good, solid, rounded, finished looking 3year olds, so more grain is necessary, or the breeder is stuck with his lanky lean youngster. Same for QH, they go under saddle even earlier. Standardbreds, same thing, work for them starts with 18 months, first races as 2 year olds. Plus, the early races and futurities pay well.


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## 1322271927queen

*Sounds like modern dressage*

I think its like taking modern dressage (as opposed to classical dressage) and adding western movements or games. You can't switch the tack and ride with the same aids. Western riders who don't teach their horses to be peanut-pushers and don't use ty-downs or pull too much on their horses mouth and they keep their horses back engaged like it would be if the horse was doing the movement by himself (which results in the right head carriage-the poll as the highest point, not the withers or forehead)are exercising their horses the same way as a classical rider. A sign of loss of forward movement is when your horse is going but theres almost no impulsion which means his back is probably not engaged either.The only difference is western horses get to gallop sometimes which requires no engagement of the bit and huge strides with the power coming from the hind legs (race horses move mostly on their forehand), its like walking but with their head held a little higher for balance and nose out to breath in the maximum amount of oxygen. Classical dressage riders can gallop, they just don't do it very often.


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## jaydee

Eitan Beth-halachmy has now split from Western Dressage due to his feelings that it hasnt gone in the direction he envisaged - he always saw it as about the Western horse and rider and not about dressage in western tack
He is concentrating on his own Cowboy Dressage tests which will have different lettering and format to conventional dressage. 
There is more info on his website and youtube channel


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## Opal

Well, it seems like everyone here who has replied has never done or shown western dressage, so I thought it might be nice to add the opinion of someone whose main discipline is western dressage.

First of all, I think it's very different from other western disciplines, which I saw I lot of people saying that it wasn't. I've riding in almost all different western disciplines, and I can surely say western dressage is very different. 

Also, my trainer was one of the co-founders of the discipline, so I guess I have more help and exposure to how western dressage SHOULD be done, than how some people are choosing to do it. 

I don't know where all of this stuff about over-doing contact and what not came from, but I've never seen that at shows I've been to. Of course, I show western dressage at Breed A shows, so there might be a lot more experienced people there who know what they're doing. I school my horse in a snaffle, and even warm him up in one before the show. You collect them just the same as you do in a western pleasure class (Morgan, not QH-- their head carriage should look like this, not peanut-pushing. There should be some contact because it's dressage, and that's how dressage is. It's not western pleasure, but you do have to be careful with a curb bit, just like english dressage riders have to be careful with a double bridle. 

I feel as though Western Dressage, at the least, provides a very good foundation to other western disciplines, just like english dressage is a great suppliment to other english disciplines. It teaches great horsemanship, and really help you and your horse become balanced and in-tune. I read one of the replies that said that the western dressage tests were easy, but JJ's doing pirouettes at the canter and starting piaffes, so I would say to hold your tongue on that one  Also, it's a very new and developing discipline! Give it some time to build up a foundation and standards. As it grows in popularity, more difficult tests will be made, and people will start to become more involved. So far, I think that western dressage has done wonders for my horse and I that any other western discipline could have NEVER done, and really, is no less supplimental or beneficial than english dressage is to english riders. It really does teach the grace and standards of english dressage except it has been adapted to western riders, which shouldn't be under appreciated.


----------



## core

Opal said:


> Y*ou collect them *just the same as you do in a western pleasure class (Morgan, not QH-- their head carriage should look like* this*, not peanut-pushing.
> 
> <snipped>
> no less supplimental or beneficial than english dressage is to english riders.


Your quote above is why WD isn't like real dressage. It misses the theory of dressage, the _most important _concept of real dressage. 

I hope that WD evolves, but the fact that a student of WD, who is training with the founder of WD, can't identify a horse that's truly working over it's back... it shows that there is a fundamental gap missing from WD training.


----------



## bsms

Opal said:


> ...I don't know where all of this stuff about over-doing contact and what not came from, but I've never seen that at shows I've been to...You collect them just the same as you do in a western pleasure class (Morgan, not QH-- their head carriage should look like *this*, not peanut-pushing. There should be some contact because it's dressage, and that's how dressage is. It's not western pleasure, but you do have to be careful with a curb bit, just like english dressage riders have to be careful with a double bridle...


*THIS* refers to this:










Don't know if that is a picture of WD or WP, but it sure isn't how I would want to ride a horse! When a leveraged bit has a lot of tension on the reins, the horse ought to be stopping. IMHO. Using a leveraged bit to set a head frame and calling it collection doesn't strike me as good riding for any discipline...but I'm speaking as someone who doesn't show or compete in anything, so maybe I'm missing some finer nuances.

If so, I'd be glad to hear what they are!


----------



## Tessa7707

Opal, I really appreciate your first hand input, so thank you! However, I'm still having a problem with this-


Opal said:


> There should be some contact because it's dressage, and that's how dressage is.


There should be _no_ contact because its a _curb_. Are you allowed to show in a snaffle? Like english dressage? IMO, if we're going to ride with contact, the bit should be a snaffle, if we're riding with loose reins, a curb is fine. 



Opal said:


> JJ's doing pirouettes at the canter and starting piaffes.


This is awesome!


----------



## Opal

(Whoops)


----------



## Opal

@Core
I think that people are frustrated because they _want_ it embody either English OR Western, when it's trying to bring them together. There are going to be concepts about it which look more at the english aspect, and concepts that look more at the western aspect. The collection is different. You don't ride a western horse in a double bridle, so obviously the collection is going to have to be different. Collection is still collection regardless of horse or discipline. It's about what the correct way to collect your horse for what it's doing is, not simply "THE correct way to collect your horse."

Also, he's not THE founder of western dressage. I'll link you to him.
Cliff Swanson | Western Dressage Association® of America

I'd really appreciate you not down-talking me though. I see that this thread has a tense past, but please don't bring that into this discussion. Let's all try to remain civil here. I really want to hear other peoples opinions about it without the passive aggressive words, and I AM nervous talking about it since the vast majority of you seem to despise the discipline and thus seem to naturally despise me before having heard me out completely.

(On a slightly off-hand subject, your horse is absolutely beautiful! Oh my goodness!)

@Bsms (And Tessa too since you asked about contact! 
Ack! I linked the wrong picture. Lemme go find it and re-link...
Edit: Well, I can't find the photo, but here's an except to give you an idea of what's expected. I'll link the whole article too.

"A Western Dressage horse moving correctly on the bit should demonstrate that he stretches into the rider’s contact. He should not be shown with a draped rein. Instead, there should be LIGHT rein tone evident between horse and rider. It should appear that the horse is seeking a feel of the rider’s hands. While doing this, it should appear that his neck is arching and stretching forward from his body or that he “looks through” the bridle. Riding strong visible rein cues, constantly bumping the bit, or causing a horse to gape his mouth are considered serious faults. Special emphasis is given to a quiet mouth with head carriage that reflects the degree of collection and an appropriate balance for each individual horse. Head and neck carriage are the result of the Western Dressage horse learning to carry the rest of his body in balance. Riders must not take short-cuts to create a head set prior to the horse learning to use his body properly. Riding either one or two-handed is permitted, as is using snaffle or curb. Riders choose the best option for themselves and their mounts."

Link to the rest of the article - http://westerndressageassociation.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/WhatisWesternDressage.pdf

@Tessa (only XD)
I school JJ in a regular snaffle, so I suppose that's what I mainly mean when I say contact is important (as it's important not only to address the showing style of WD, but the schooling techniques too!) but I probably needed to specify. Also, refer to the quoted bit from the article above because I feel that it explains WD expected contact levels well.

And thank you for the complement! He's getting so good <3


----------



## core

Opal said:


> The collection is different. You don't ride a western horse in a double bridle, so obviously the collection is going to have to be different. Collection is still collection regardless of horse or discipline. It's about what the correct way to collect your horse for what it's doing is, not simply "THE correct way to collect your horse."


We don't obtain collection from a double bridle. We obtain it with a snaffle. There are no correctly trained dressage horses that require a double to be collected. Collection should _NEVER _be different between WD and real dressage, not if you're going to call it dressage. If collection is not collection as defined by USDF, then it's not dressage because it is not demonstrating the theories or concepts of dressage. 



> I'd really appreciate you not down-talking me though.


I'm not 'down-talking' to you. I'm explaining why what you're showing as "collection" is not collection defined in dressage. That's the western idea of what collection is, and it's nowhere near what it means in dressage. 

I sincerely wish you numerous years of having a blast doing WD! I'm glad you found something you enjoy and that helps you. I am making one suggestion... that you look into why that picture of the Morgan horse was not correct. I think you could learn a great deal, and improve your enjoyment of WD.


----------



## Opal

@Core
It isn't collection as defined by classical dressage, because it's not classical dressage. You're trying to merge two suprisignly different things. I am curious why you say that "Collection should NEVER be different in WD and real dressage."
If you're using different tack, and a different bit, and have different expectation, why shouldn't collection be different too? You don't think that a horse is collected differently in a curb bit than in a double bridle?

Also, I school JJ in a snaffle, not a curb, so I am equally as proficent at obtaining correct collection in a snaffle as you are. Thus, there are no correctly trained WD horses who require a curb to be collected. I never said that you needed a double bridle to collect, only that collection in a double bridle is different than collection in a curb. We both collect the same way in a snaffle though. 

I don't think you read the other stuff I posted, and perhaps I should have suggested it after I ended what I wrote to you. The picture was a wrong link, and was a terrible example to top. I quoted what kind of collection is looked for in WD too.

"A Western Dressage horse moving correctly on the bit should demonstrate that he stretches into the rider’s contact. He should not be shown with a draped rein. Instead, there should be LIGHT rein tone evident between horse and rider. It should appear that the horse is seeking a feel of the rider’s hands. While doing this, it should appear that his neck is arching and stretching forward from his body or that he “looks through” the bridle. Riding strong visible rein cues, constantly bumping the bit, or causing a horse to gape his mouth are considered serious faults. Special emphasis is given to a quiet mouth with head carriage that reflects the degree of collection and an appropriate balance for each individual horse. Head and neck carriage are the result of the Western Dressage horse learning to carry the rest of his body in balance. Riders must not take short-cuts to create a head set prior to the horse learning to use his body properly. Riding either one or two-handed is permitted, as is using snaffle or curb. Riders choose the best option for themselves and their mounts."

and thank you! I felt like we've really come a long way through use of dressage movements and principles, and I really admire classical dressage riders


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## deserthorsewoman

Can't help it....sorry....but what do you define as the Western idea of collection, core?
Im not talking showring, im talking every day work/training.


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## longride

WDAA defines collection the same way it's defined by USEF, USDF, FEI etc. Bio-mechanically the horse has to do the same things to get there. The progression to train the horse is the same, given that within the dressage tradition there is more than one way to Rome. Otherwise there would be no long discussions on French vs German vs Iberian, etc. 

So the big sticking point is the curb and how it is used. In western work as in classical dressage the horse is taught collection in the snaffle. Only when he works off the seat does he move into the curb. Then the curb should be a signal bit, meaning that the horse reacts to any change in position of the bit long before it creates pressure on the bars by engaging the curb strap. So when I rode my FEI horse in a snaffle I had absolutely still hands and got bend from the leg, seat, and the very subtle changes in pressure that started by the changes in the horses body. The hands did nothing. This is the way the curb acts on a finished bridle horse. Change the flow of energy and the horse will feel it in the bit. Is bend difficult with only a curb - yes. I've seen one long ride one handed in the curb where the horse was properly bent throughout and the rider didn't adjust the reins occasionally. But it can be achieved, and the journey to get there will result in better understanding of seat, balance ---- and bits.


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## bsms

deserthorsewoman said:


> Can't help it....sorry....but what do you define as the Western idea of collection, core?
> Im not talking showring, im talking every day work/training.


The FEI and dressage are concerned with collected GAITS. That is a high degree of sustained collection, and the rules of dressage discuss it.

Most western riding uses collection to refer to a shift in weight toward the rear. How much and how long is variable. That is why western trainers will talk about collection and a 3 year old horse without embarrassment.

My mare likes to go heavy on the front. Any time I get her to relax, engage her back and shift some of her weight to the rear, she is 'collecting', but it is nothing like a collected gait. Once in a while, she has BRIEFLY moved with what felt like a collected gait to me, for perhaps 4-5 strides, but she doesn't have the strength to sustain it. It feels cool, but she only has done it about a half dozen times.

That is why collection is at the top of the pyramid in dressage. It takes a LOT of work before a horse can sustain a collected gait, and that is why hearing about a 3 year old horse being 'collected' sounds a bit odd to most dressage riders.

NOTE: I'm not a dressage rider, nor do I compete in anything. The above is my attempt at understanding the difference between how some of my dressage books use 'collection', and how some of the western trainers I've hired or whose DVDs I've watched use the term. It confused the snot out of me for some time, and that is how I've reconciled the two in my mind. :?


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## deserthorsewoman

Thanks bsms and longride....I am aware of the dressage way collection is achieved and explained. I am from dressage country, literally grew up with it.
I wanted "core"'s definition of western collection, taking into consideration the different build of the western breeds, including Arabs, Morgans and some ponies(which, IMO,are easier to collect)


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## ~*~anebel~*~

bsms said:


> The FEI and dressage are concerned with collected GAITS. That is a high degree of sustained collection, and the rules of dressage discuss it.
> 
> Most western riding uses collection to refer to a shift in weight toward the rear. How much and how long is variable. That is why western trainers will talk about collection and a 3 year old horse without embarrassment.
> 
> My mare likes to go heavy on the front. Any time I get her to relax, engage her back and shift some of her weight to the rear, she is 'collecting', but it is nothing like a collected gait. Once in a while, she has BRIEFLY moved with what felt like a collected gait to me, for perhaps 4-5 strides, but she doesn't have the strength to sustain it. It feels cool, but she only has done it about a half dozen times.
> 
> That is why collection is at the top of the pyramid in dressage. It takes a LOT of work before a horse can sustain a collected gait, and that is why hearing about a 3 year old horse being 'collected' sounds a bit odd to most dressage riders.
> 
> NOTE: I'm not a dressage rider, nor do I compete in anything. The above is my attempt at understanding the difference between how some of my dressage books use 'collection', and how some of the western trainers I've hired or whose DVDs I've watched use the term. It confused the snot out of me for some time, and that is how I've reconciled the two in my mind. :?



Yes, collection takes a very very high degree of muscle development, carrying power and strength. Shifting weight to the haunch and arching the neck is not collection in dressage terms (and IMO in a sport where "dressage" is in the title, we are talking about in dressage terms). It is simply increasing balance, changing where the weight is carried and adjusting the contact.
bsms what you are describing with your mare is a half halt. Watch a GP test, every stride is being half halted. It becomes like breathing in dressage - and sustaining, improving and adjusting that gait is what eventually turns into your collected gaits.

But I digress. The point is I agree with bsms and core. From the WD people I've talked to, WD is judged in the same fashion as dressage. Simply arching the neck or going like how the horse in bsms' post is going (ie out behind,on the forehand, but "in a frame") will get the horses docked marks.
True WD is judged by dressage judges. *Puts on flame suit* But like anything in breed shows - there is a "breed show version" of the discipline. Breed show dressage and true dressage are like apples and oranges. I imagine it is the same with WD. I run competitions with "normal" or "open" WD and if someone shows up with a "framed" horse that is out behind with a long back - they will be penalized. A good, working frame with correct gaits and a good contact will conquer. Like in real dressage. Want to frame a horse by pulling them into collection? You're going to get a low score in "real" or "open" dressage, regardless of your tack.
I have no idea how it is in breed land, but I can imagine based on what I've experienced in the past.


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## core

Opal said:


> @Core
> It isn't collection as defined by classical dressage, because it's not classical dressage. You're trying to merge two suprisignly different things. I am curious why you say that "Collection should NEVER be different in WD and real dressage."
> *If you're using different tack, and a different bit, and have different expectation, why shouldn't collection be different too*? You don't think that a horse is collected differently in a curb bit than in a double bridle?
> <snipped>
> there are no correctly trained WD horses who require a curb to be collected.
> that collection in a double bridle is different than collection in a curb.


If you train the horse in a snaffle, then the concepts/theories should stay exactly the same. You said you train in a snaffle. Maybe I'm wrong, but it sounds like you're saying that you really only use the curb to allow for much finer and more subtle aids to the horse. Is that correct? But the training is done in a snaffle... not a curb. That's the same as regular dressage. I'm not sure why collection should be different if we are using the exact same bit to train our horses with (snaffle). 

Does your horse collect differently in a snaffle vs a curb? Maybe I'm not understand what you're saying? 




> I don't think you read the other stuff I posted, and perhaps I should have suggested it after I ended what I wrote to you. The picture was a wrong link, and was a terrible example to top. I quoted what kind of collection is looked for in WD too.
> 
> "A Western Dressage horse moving correctly on the bit should demonstrate that he stretches into the rider’s contact. He should not be shown with a draped rein. Instead, there should be LIGHT rein tone evident between horse and rider. It should appear that the horse is seeking a feel of the rider’s hands. While doing this, it *should appear that his neck is arching and stretching forward from his body or that he “looks through” the bridle*. Riding strong visible rein cues, constantly bumping the bit, or causing a horse to gape his mouth are considered serious faults. Special emphasis is given to a quiet mouth with head carriage that reflects the degree of collection and an appropriate balance for each individual horse. Head and neck carriage are the result of the Western Dressage horse learning to *carry the rest of his body in balance*. Riders must not take short-cuts to create a head set prior to the horse learning to use his body properly. Riding either one or two-handed is permitted, as is using snaffle or curb. Riders choose the best option for themselves and their mounts."


I'll ignore the photo then. And I didn't see your other posts, I'll look for them.

I realize WD is still developing, but personally I think they need to define collection soon. Like now. They've had enough time at this point to realize that people are interested, and shows are willing to host classes. They know WD will be around for a while. Why is it that the highest level WD can define is a Training level dressage concept (balance)? 
(Balance is not collection.)



> and thank you! I felt like we've really come a long way through use of dressage movements and principles, and I really admire classical dressage riders


Btw, I honestly admire the people who are the front runners of WD, like you.


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## Opal

@Core
I am so thankful that this has evolved into a discussion rather than an argument XD That's how so many things always seem to end when discussing these types of situations, so seeing that we're both willing to be civilized and have a resonable discussion is such a relief. 

I totally agree with you. The WD assosciation really needs to get itself together, but it is SO new (It's been "officially" around since 2008) that it's just have trouble straightening itself out. I've found that WD has been far more successful in-breed (with Morgans) than it has is other breeds, so I am probably a little blind to the problems that arise in open/different breed classes. I do know that there really needs to be a LOT of straightening out though in the near future, and I really hope it successfully evolves into the good things that I'm finding in it already.

There isn't really a lot of show opportunities higher than the basic things, mostly because there hasn't been enough time for people to become skilled enough to actually show at higher levels. It's hard to come up with a competition-ready set of horses which can perform high level movement like piaffe, passage, tempi, ect. at competition level within the time that WD shows have actually been around. Classical Dressage didn't evolve out of thin air, did it? XD

Overall, I completely agree with your post this time around. It really does need time to develope, but they need to start developing faster, because as I've seen from other posts, WD has been given a terrible starting reputation and it breaks my heart a little to see people who think that there isn't any potential in it at all.

Anyway, about the bits.

Horses do collect quite a bit differently in a curb. A very, very slight raise of the hand is all you need to encourage them to flex their poll and engage their hind-end. Because Curb's are so harsh, you can't really have the same contact with the reins as you can in a snaffle or double, plus you ride with rommel reins, which you use one handed. Of course, if you're collecting properly, you still use leg to encourage the engagement of the hind end as well. Like it was said in the quote above, WD riders are expected to have SLIGHTLY more contact with the bridle, unlike in WP where the horse is ridden with almost complete slack and obvious drape in the reins. With English dressage, there (should) be a straight line of contact from the horses mouth, up the rein and to the lower forearm before the bend at the elbow, which doesn't apply to riding with a curb.

Now, what really bothers me is that the WDAA is allowing people to ride a curb with two hands. THAT irks me, and definitely makes me want to tell the WDAA to get it's crap together. It'd be so much more appealing if it was just a little more organized, put together, and thought through XD


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## jaydee

If someone wants to do something with their horse thats promoting the industry in general, giving pleasure without abuse of the horse then I dont see what the argument is about - in fact the most of the dislike seems to be that they actually dare to call it dressage
I have never heard anything so petty and childish in all my life
How about a bit of tolerance & support for what other people want to do?
Are WD riders ripping the guts out of showjumping, conventional dressage, eventing,barrel racing, reining? I dont see that.
Some live and let live would be nice


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## longride

I think one of the problems is that there are such extremes out there. You never see the draped reins used in AQHA western pleasure being used on working cow horses except when absolutely nothing is being asked of them. OTOH you don't seen them riding two handed with a curb except for brief periods of correction. If the people writing the original rules felt that draped reins were what they needed to totally avoid, you can see the reasoning behind the wording. I think the two hands on the curb will disappear very soon and we will hopefully be left with the ideal of enough feel in the reins that change in tension in the body, hand and arm can be felt by the horse without overt movement.


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## longride

BTW - from the German Federation Advanced Tecniques of Riding. "True collection produces "schwung" and cadence, not _just_ [italics mine] shorter strides.[so shorter strides are a component of collection.] If both hind legs step further forward under the horse's center of gravity, the bent haunches carry more weight and then propel the body powerfully forward and upwards. Because the center of gravity is shifted backwards and the quarters carry more weight, the forehand is lightened and elevated, _the horse's neck is arched _- according to its conformation - and it shows proud and cadenced steps and strides." So while the wording of the WDAA rules may be at this stage very bare bones, leaving too much assumed, they embody the elements of the German and classical definitions - weight shift to the hindquarters, resulting in a raised and arched neck. There is also wording about the action of the hind legs straight from the USEF rules. What isn't there is the word "schwung" or an equivalent, and I agree the concept needs to be spelled out. Far more than just gaits, however, collection is about protecting and freeing the horse's back, restoring it's ability to support the heavy load of internal organs + rider the way nature intended while allowing full freedom of motion. "Schwung" happens when that's been achieved and so will certainly be a component of WD since a primary goal of WD is about riding for the welfare of the horse.


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## core

deserthorsewoman said:


> Can't help it....sorry....but what do you define as the Western idea of collection, core?
> Im not talking showring, im talking every day work/training.


I wasn't specifically addressing the western idea of collection. I was only referring to the photo of the Morgan and collection as defined in dressage. In that picture, the horse is on its forehand, and in a false frame. You can tell because of how far back the front legs have traveled, how far behind the horse the hind legs are, and how the neck is arched. The horse may be showing balance to a degree, but that's not the same as what a dressage person means when they use the word collection (shouldn't be at least).

Opal said it was a bad pic, so it's not really relevant to the discussion. I know sometimes its hard to find good free photo's that really show the concepts of what we try to explain on here. 

I'm not knocking western. It was strictly about WD and dressage, which I feel should have very similiar concepts and theories if it contains the name dressage. If they want to adjust tests to better test the training of the horse without giving extra points for gaits, then go for it! Just don't call that pic dressage collection or dressage students will spend hours explaining why its not. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deserthorsewoman

Well, we're all agreeing that it was the wrong picture. 
But I still don't know what you consider western collection and where the difference is. If there is one


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## deserthorsewoman

longride said:


> BTW - from the German Federation Advanced Tecniques of Riding. "True collection produces "schwung" and cadence, not _just_ [italics mine] shorter strides.[so shorter strides are a component of collection.] If both hind legs step further forward under the horse's center of gravity, the bent haunches carry more weight and then propel the body powerfully forward and upwards. Because the center of gravity is shifted backwards and the quarters carry more weight, the forehand is lightened and elevated, _the horse's neck is arched _- according to its conformation - and it shows proud and cadenced steps and strides." So while the wording of the WDAA rules may be at this stage very bare bones, leaving too much assumed, they embody the elements of the German and classical definitions - weight shift to the hindquarters, resulting in a raised and arched neck. There is also wording about the action of the hind legs straight from the USEF rules. What isn't there is the word "schwung" or an equivalent, and I agree the concept needs to be spelled out. Far more than just gaits, however, collection is about protecting and freeing the horse's back, restoring it's ability to support the heavy load of internal organs + rider the way nature intended while allowing full freedom of motion. "Schwung" happens when that's been achieved and so will certainly be a component of WD since a primary goal of WD is about riding for the welfare of the horse.


im trying to come up with a worthy translation for Schwung .....Schwung comes from schwingen....swinging, but is not quite right, since swinging is in general sideways. With the Schwung in a horse we're referring to forward. Schwungvoll forward. Maybe a little like dancing a Strauss waltz with a great partner and a very big dancefloor......
Sorry for rambling on about it, but I feel it is very important that the word is being understood, classical dressage or western dressage.....without Schwung it's not good riding, it's only a drill.


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## core

deserthorsewoman said:


> Well, we're all agreeing that it was the wrong picture.
> But I still don't know what you consider western collection and where the difference is. If there is one


I didn't want to touch WP because in my opinion they don't show collection. WP is looking mainly toward balance in the horse - can the horse w/t/c easily and stay in the gait without speeding up or slowing down a lot. That's just balance, its not collection. 

Reiners/cutters are closest to my definition of collection, but its different from what I've learned in dressage. It's not wrong/right, its just that the highest end result of collection for reining/cutting and dressage looks different.

Since I don't believe WP shows collection, just assume I'm talking about reiners or cutters if I say western in this reply. 

The differences between western collection and dressage collection is the sustainability, and the thrust from the hind legs. Dressage trains the horse to stay in a high degree of collection the entire test (at GP level). At te highest level, the dressage horse has to be strong enough to continuously push its body upward with brief moments of showing that it can push its body forward (extended gaits). Dressage rewards for lofty gaits that look like the horse barely touches the earth. 

Western rewards horses that can show dramatic thrust forward, and strong hind quarters to capture the much stronger forward energy and translate it into either a stop, or turn. The forward in western isn't elongating the stride like it is in dressage. Western wants more of an ideal toward function in the horse rather than the energy wasting qualities exhibited in dressage. 

If both western and dressage are trained correctly to the highest level, the end result looks different, but the main concepts for how they got there are pretty similiar.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## longride

Technically "schwung" combines several different elements. The neck is supported by the tension of the nuchal ligament gained by correct connection through the supraspinus ligamint to a tilted pelvis. This raises the spine between the shoulder blades but leaves the muscle system of the back free to move rather than support weight. The tilt of the pelvis is created by the use of muscles of the abdomen which again leave the motor muscles free to move. The feeling of "raising" the back comes from the lift of the spine between the shoulder blades. The result of this carriage of the spine is that the horse can move it's limbs to full range of movement allowing full utilization of the forward impulse to either push or lift while all the muscles of the back can be either engaged or relaxed in movement ( schwung). Here is how it's worded by the German Federation - "the transmission of the energetic impulse created by the hind legs into the forward movement of the entire horse. An elastically swinging back is the necessary precondition." 

Loftiness of gaits isn't mentioned and can be the result of tension or simply breeding. The emphasis on this quality is IMHO a modern fixation. OTOH lightness of carriage, the feeling that the horse barely touches the ground, is paramount, but has nothing to do with how much air there is between the hoof and the ground, but instead is the result of elasticity of the joints. For a test, try jumping lightly from foot to foot barely coming off the ground. As you tire, you'll get more "loft". Height off the ground doesn't translate into ability to carry, which is what collection is about. I think this shift has come as dressage horses have been seen less and less as useful. Western horse on the other hand have to be functional.

By the way, the western horses I have seen the most collection in are the Ranch sorting horses, especially the horse keeping the gate. Completely different from cutters. They have to be able to go backwards as quickly as they go forwards as well as switch directions in a split second.


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## longride

BTW, Opal and anyone else who is a member of WDAA and would like to see rule changes, the WDAA is accepting suggestions on their web site. The link to the submission form is on the Rules and Tests page.


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## Opal

Opal said:


> @Core
> I am so thankful that this has evolved into a discussion rather than an argument XD That's how so many things always seem to end when discussing these types of situations, so seeing that we're both willing to be civilized and have a resonable discussion is such a relief.
> 
> I totally agree with you. The WD assosciation really needs to get itself together, but it is SO new (It's been "officially" around since 2008) that it's just have trouble straightening itself out. I've found that WD has been far more successful in-breed (with Morgans) than it has is other breeds, so I am probably a little blind to the problems that arise in open/different breed classes. I do know that there really needs to be a LOT of straightening out though in the near future, and I really hope it successfully evolves into the good things that I'm finding in it already.
> 
> There isn't really a lot of show opportunities higher than the basic things, mostly because there hasn't been enough time for people to become skilled enough to actually show at higher levels. It's hard to come up with a competition-ready set of horses which can perform high level movement like piaffe, passage, tempi, ect. at competition level within the time that WD shows have actually been around. Classical Dressage didn't evolve out of thin air, did it? XD
> 
> Overall, I completely agree with your post this time around. It really does need time to develope, but they need to start developing faster, because as I've seen from other posts, WD has been given a terrible starting reputation and it breaks my heart a little to see people who think that there isn't any potential in it at all.
> 
> Anyway, about the bits.
> 
> Horses do collect quite a bit differently in a curb. A very, very slight raise of the hand is all you need to encourage them to flex their poll and engage their hind-end. Because Curb's are so harsh, you can't really have the same contact with the reins as you can in a snaffle or double, plus you ride with rommel reins, which you use one handed. Of course, if you're collecting properly, you still use leg to encourage the engagement of the hind end as well. Like it was said in the quote above, WD riders are expected to have SLIGHTLY more contact with the bridle, unlike in WP where the horse is ridden with almost complete slack and obvious drape in the reins. With English dressage, there (should) be a straight line of contact from the horses mouth, up the rein and to the lower forearm before the bend at the elbow, which doesn't apply to riding with a curb.
> 
> Now, what really bothers me is that the WDAA is allowing people to ride a curb with two hands. THAT irks me, and definitely makes me want to tell the WDAA to get it's crap together. It'd be so much more appealing if it was just a little more organized, put together, and thought through XD


I think you missed this Core 

Also, I actually think that reining/cutting shows a lot less collection than a GOOD, (Morgan) WP rider. You use neck reining to control reiners/cutters, and so far with my experience, I've never heard a single reiner/cutter even mention/seem like they care about collection.

Again, I think we have different opinions when it comes to collection. I believe that collection can vary based on the horse and the discipline, and the collection simply involves being on the bit and engaging a horse's haunches and that his hind legs should be reaching over the places where his front hooves last left the ground in a stride. You, from what I understand, believe that collection is simply as what is defined by the USDF and nothing more. It is true that balance is an important part of WP, but I have NEVER heard of anyone who does WP (Morgan) and does not plan on collecting there horse, at least in the way that WP defines collection. WP riders cannot show the level of extension and "floaty" gaits a dressage horse can-- that's not WP. Collection, in my opinion, it imparative to balance and I've ALWAYS been taught collection when I did WP. Trying to do WP without "collection" would just....uggg...I can't even fathom it.


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## COWCHICK77

subbing


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## longride

Ahh. And here we have it. Dressage language vs the rest of the world. Opal, if WD never planned on going beyond 1st level, your definition would hold. But we already have tests for 2nd level and are writing tests for even higher levels. There are degrees of collection, and you're talking about the lowest degree while Core is talking about the highest. Neither of you is wrong. It's a language problem. While books on dressage training have no problem recognizing that there is a scale of collection, the RULES only use the term for full collection. It isn't different things - it's the same thing only more so. 

As WD horses have higher levels, they will have to show greater collection. It's built into the whole concept of classical principles and the ability to fully collect is a huge part of western cow work, though as has been pointed out it isn't usually asked for continuously.


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## deserthorsewoman

Im not so sure if higher levels need to be introduced and called Western Dressage. IMO they already exist in the California Bridle Horse. All without taking technical descriptions and expressions from any rule book. ....and these horses prove that western and classical collection work well together in everyday work of a ranch horse. Schwung and all.......


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## longride

For those who have access to California Bridle horse trainers that's wonderful. But I know of only one bridle horse trainer in my state and he's no expert, though dedicated and well intentioned.


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## COWCHICK77

deserthorsewoman touched on what I was going to ask...

Photos 

I am curious as to what dressage people see when they see photos like the ones in the link above. 
These are not WD photos but like DHW said, bridle horses.


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## deserthorsewoman

longride said:


> For those who have access to California Bridle horse trainers that's wonderful. But I know of only one bridle horse trainer in my state and he's no expert, though dedicated and well intentioned.


Seems to be a good guy. None of the greats call themselves experts and know that they'll never stop learning.....


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## core

longride said:


> Ahh. And here we have it. Dressage language vs the rest of the world. Opal, if WD never planned on going beyond 1st level, your definition would hold. But we already have tests for 2nd level and are writing tests for even higher levels. There are degrees of collection, and you're talking about the lowest degree while Core is talking about the highest. Neither of you is wrong. It's a language problem. While books on dressage training have no problem recognizing that there is a scale of collection, the RULES only use the term for full collection. It isn't different things - it's the same thing only more,.


Thank you, Longride. Good interpretation. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## waresbear

Well I will give you my thoughts in June, our riding club is doing a western dressage show then. The organizer of the event came to my work to specifically ask if I would compete and to remind to send in my membership, lol. I talked to my coach, she is looking into it, I already told her I would neck rein only and maybe just frame the horse up at bit. I am not impressed by any of the vids I have seen two handed and full contact with a curb. Oh, good thing I came across this thread, I need to get my club membership & insurance app in, Forgetful Jones.


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## ~*~anebel~*~

COWCHICK77 said:


> deserthorsewoman touched on what I was going to ask...
> 
> Photos
> 
> I am curious as to what dressage people see when they see photos like the ones in the link above.
> These are not WD photos but like DHW said, bridle horses.


I see overbitted horses, broken at the third and trained not to touch their tie downs in fear of pain. Classic "framed" horses that are ridden front to back - ie bit first, seat later (or not at all).

A truly collected horse ridden back to front and there is no fear of the bit or fear of a rawhide tie down. The neck is never forced, there is suppling but never is the horse "broken at the poll" or "tied around" or "softened in the face". As soon as the horse drops behind the bit (ie breaks at the poll or "softens" the face) the horse can no longer be collected as he has been ridden front to back.
A great example of a truly collected horse ridden back to front is Uta Graf's Le Noir and their bitless riding. It is so evident that the rider does not rely on excessive tack to force the horse to submit and curl his neck, as is seen in the above link.






I fail to see how something that we ALL agree starts with the hindlegs, their increased activity and carrying power, can be thought to begin with a piece of metal 6' from the hindlegs. A bit will never, ever, ever collect a horse. It is physically impossible that something in the mouth will affect the hindlegs in a positive way that they will become more active and carry more, so I do not know where this belief comes from unless you've scared the horse off the bit so much that he behaves like a turtle, sucking his neck in to avoid the pressure and giving the rider the feeling of lightness. Which is not correct, or collection. A truly collected horse feels like riding a controlled explosion. There is so much energy and control that in any moment you can be in an extended canter or a halt without moving the hands, simply by giving a signal with the seat. It has nothing to do with lightness of the face, which is what IMO many people focus on and where the confusion comes from.
I would also agree that working cattle horses are far closer to collected in a true sense than anything else posted here.


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## deserthorsewoman

Anebel....sorry, but you don't understand the principles of a true bridle horse at all. Let alone how it gets there......
I see way more pressed in a frame, unhappy and scared dressage horses than bridle horses. 
Ride one, when you get a chance.......


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## ~*~anebel~*~

Then what is the purpose of the severe curb and tie down?? My horse would not have two bad thoughts about jerking a rider with heavy hands off his back using his neck and mouth to pull the rider off, because he is not scared of the bit. Those horses do not even have the choice to resist. They are forced to obey through pain.

Comparing upper level dressage horses to a highly trained bridle horse (as I've posted Uta Graf and Cowchick posted pictures she likes) only one of those groups of horses are willingly accepting contact to their mouths (or heads in the bridleless video) and balancing on the haunches without necks curled in, under and down to avoid pressure. The difference is that dressage horses seek rein pressure in a connection and horses ridden in severe bits avoid pressure, avoid connection and therefore cannot in a classical sense be collected.


ETA - deserthorsewoman, you are one of the people who asked an opinion from a dressage rider. You got one. So be happy.


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## longride

Which shows your total ignorance of how a bridle horse is trained and works. Did you know that a top bridle horse will carry the bit with no headstall? No fear there. The bridle horse works off the same things a Grand Prix dressage horse does - the seat and legs of the rider. No one here has ever said collection BEGINS with the bit. But it is a circle, and the bit, whether it is a snaffle or a spade is included in the circle because of powerful and important muscles connected to the tongue that control and link the lower muscles sytems with the upper. All bits work first on the tongue, and that is where the horse first feels the aid. If it reacts from that by telescoping the neck out, without needing more, it doesn't matter whether the bit is a snaffle, curb or spade. While I see many pictures of horse broken at the third vertebrae, especially in the Morgans, not one of Jeff's is. The Sunday afternoon picture clearly shows the poll as the highest point with correct muscling of the neck and no "break." 
From another dressage rider

Oh and someone explain to her what the bosal does and why there's a line that looks like a tie down. I don't have time.


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## COWCHICK77

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> I see overbitted horses, broken at the third and trained not to touch their tie downs in fear of pain. Classic "framed" horses that are ridden front to back - ie bit first, seat later (or not at all).
> 
> A truly collected horse ridden back to front and there is no fear of the bit or fear of a rawhide tie down. The neck is never forced, there is suppling but never is the horse "broken at the poll" or "tied around" or "softened in the face". As soon as the horse drops behind the bit (ie breaks at the poll or "softens" the face) the horse can no longer be collected as he has been ridden front to back.
> A great example of a truly collected horse ridden back to front is Uta Graf's Le Noir and their bitless riding. It is so evident that the rider does not rely on excessive tack to force the horse to submit and curl his neck, as is seen in the above link.
> Uta Gräf // Graf & Le Noir - bitless riding May 2011 - YouTube
> 
> 
> I fail to see how something that we ALL agree starts with the hindlegs, their increased activity and carrying power, can be thought to begin with a piece of metal 6' from the hindlegs. A bit will never, ever, ever collect a horse. It is physically impossible that something in the mouth will affect the hindlegs in a positive way that they will become more active and carry more, so I do not know where this belief comes from unless you've scared the horse off the bit so much that he behaves like a turtle, sucking his neck in to avoid the pressure and giving the rider the feeling of lightness. Which is not correct, or collection. A truly collected horse feels like riding a controlled explosion. There is so much energy and control that in any moment you can be in an extended canter or a halt without moving the hands, simply by giving a signal with the seat. It has nothing to do with lightness of the face, which is what IMO many people focus on and where the confusion comes from.
> I would also agree that working cattle horses are far closer to collected in a true sense than anything else posted here.


Anebel I appreciate your response, but what you are calling a tie down is nothing of the sorts. 
I think what you are seeing is the get- down and the under bridle on the bridle horse and the bosalita on the two rein horses. 
The head is not tied down in any way nor is it _ever_ encouraged.
Also the bit is not used to scare the horse into position.

But I am not going to argue about how the equipment is used, I just wanted opinions on how the horses look from a dressage point of view on collection, regardless of the tack.


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## Muppetgirl

I thought this thread died long ago......

I'm sitting on the fence here nodding in each direction.....as I can see everyone's point.....yet cannot refute as every discipline does things and defines things differently.........

All I can say is:

A horse is a horse, of course of course 😏


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## deserthorsewoman

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Then what is the purpose of the severe curb and tie down?? My horse would not have two bad thoughts about jerking a rider with heavy hands off his back using his neck and mouth to pull the rider off, because he is not scared of the bit. Those horses do not even have the choice to resist. They are forced to obey through pain.
> 
> Comparing upper level dressage horses to a highly trained bridle horse (as I've posted Uta Graf and Cowchick posted pictures she likes) only one of those groups of horses are willingly accepting contact to their mouths (or heads in the bridleless video) and balancing on the haunches without necks curled in, under and down to avoid pressure. The difference is that dressage horses seek rein pressure in a connection and horses ridden in severe bits avoid pressure, avoid connection and therefore cannot in a classical sense be collected.
> 
> 
> ETA - deserthorsewoman, you are one of the people who asked an opinion from a dressage rider. You got one. So be happy.


Don't you get snarky with me please. I stated that you don't know nothing about bridle horses, and your response tells me, and others, that I'm right. You did explain your point of view on collection of western horses and I gave you a "like".

So, as I said before, educate yourself about bridle horse and their training, so you don't have to assume....ya know, assume makes an a....out of.........as somebody said.


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## ~*~anebel~*~

I only know what I see, and from years of very critically seeing and watching and training and teaching and riding and judging I think my seeing is pretty good.

When I see a bridle horse able to go bitless and do the same things, I will change my views on the subject. But until then I think the use of harsh tack is just that. Harsh and unnecessary. You don't think that it's excessive force because you are around it every day. Plain and simply. There is understanding and then there are conditioned responses. If you can't have an understanding of the biomechanics of collection and the fact that a bit cannot, physically collect a horse in the sense of the word that we have all accepted the definition of then you have drunk the Kool-Aid and become a proponent of conditioned response and blindly accept what is preached by those around you.

And I think we all know that I am the last thing from a feathers and fairy dust horse person. But to NEED a harsh piece of equipment to achieve something that others are able to do in a bitless, or bareback in a halter (re Isabelle Werth) is not correct, and I don't care what discipline it's in. I refuse to blindly accept that this is "how we do it". As a community we have to be willing to accept critique and become critical of ourselves in order to improve welfare for the horse. Yes, I haven't trained bridle horses. But I've trained horses to do a lot of things that bridle horses do. In a correct, classical way based on fundamentals and hard work. Not a bit.


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## oh vair oh

Buck Brannaman looks lovely on his bridle horses.


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## COWCHICK77

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> I only know what I see, and from years of very critically seeing and watching and training and teaching and riding and judging I think my seeing is pretty good.
> 
> When I see a bridle horse able to go bitless and do the same things, I will change my views on the subject. But until then I think the use of harsh tack is just that. Harsh and unnecessary. You don't think that it's excessive force because you are around it every day. Plain and simply. There is understanding and then there are conditioned responses. If you can't have an understanding of the biomechanics of collection and the fact that a bit cannot, physically collect a horse in the sense of the word that we have all accepted the definition of then you have drunk the Kool-Aid and become a proponent of conditioned response and blindly accept what is preached by those around you.
> 
> And I think we all know that I am the last thing from a feathers and fairy dust horse person. But to NEED a harsh piece of equipment to achieve something that others are able to do in a bitless, or bareback in a halter (re Isabelle Werth) is not correct, and I don't care what discipline it's in. I refuse to blindly accept that this is "how we do it". As a community we have to be willing to accept critique and become critical of ourselves in order to improve welfare for the horse. Yes, I haven't trained bridle horses. But I've trained horses to do a lot of things that bridle horses do. In a correct, classical way based on fundamentals and hard work. Not a bit.


Anebel, you missed the whole idea of why I posted the pics in the first place. I just wanted a dressage persons opinion of those pics to see if the dressage persons idea of collection is the same as a western persons. There are a couple of pics I liked and some I did not in that album. The tack used was NOT the point.

But you keep getting hung up on the bit. Please don't. Your post clearly means that you do not understand the use. You are making assumptions like DHW said. That would be like me saying "dressage people don't know how to ride outside of an arena and they need contact on the bit to babysit their horses into position." Sounds pretty ignorant doesn't it?
I feel like a broken record explaining to people that is not the bit that makes the bridle horse but the process. The whole idea is based off of the horse finding the balance from the body position of the rider along with the hackamore and/or bit. Not pulling the bridle to "beat" the horse into submission. The bit is not used as a leverage bit. If the reins need to be pulled then it is time to take a step back and fix the issue not yank the **** out of his mouth.


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## deserthorsewoman

A dressage double bridle is harsh. And ridden with constant contact. A bridle horse is ridden with signals, not constant contact, and, during the years of training up to being in the bridle, learns very well to work off seat and leg cues. Isabell Werth had quite a bit in hand riding her horse with a halter. You won't see a vaquero having to use that much force. 
The bit, reins and rein chains of a bridle horse are carefully balanced to make a horse respond to barely a thought instead of as much as a tug. As has been said, they pack the bit, even without a headstall. A horse wouldn't do that trained with fear. Period. 

Again, I strongly suggest you educate yourself, before judging it, at the right places. And ride one, if you get a chance. You will appreciate it, just like I did, after growing up with dressage, then drifting into western, and a couple of sidesteps into Spanish/Portuguese style, and all that in a matter of 45 years, not days.


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## paintedpastures

WD still not my cup of tea.I love watching a well schooled english dressage horse but when it comes to watching western I prefer watching a well trained western horse,going relaxed with good even cadence,working off his rider subtle cues in a relaxed fashion on only light rein contact.Give me a good horsemanship,western riding or reiner they look more professional To me look more suited to their breed & riding style:wink:than "western Dressage"


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## Opal

paintedpastures said:


> I prefer watching a well trained western horse,going relaxed with good even cadence,working off his rider subtle cues in a relaxed fashion on only light rein contact.
> 2011 AQHA World Show Senior Western Riding - YouTube


Those are all things that are valued and looked for in Western Dressage, at least the way I practice it and have witnessed it within the Morgan breed.

And see, I do not enjoy watching horses like in the video you linked. Watching someone ride like that is just not my cup of tea, even though I'm well aware that they are fantastic at what they do, I just have a lack of appreciation for the QH style of WP, how there's complete rein slack and the horse' neck is washboard straight, if not peanut pushing. He's still an excellent rider, that's undeniable, I just don't fancy watching that type of riding because there's nothing in it that I really value or aspire to, if that makes sense?

To each their own, of course C:


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## core

COWCHICK77 said:


> deserthorsewoman touched on what I was going to ask...
> 
> Photos
> 
> I am curious as to what dressage people see when they see photos like the ones in the link above.
> These are not WD photos but like DHW said, bridle horses.


In my opinion, most of the ridden pics show a horse that isn't correct (in terms of dressage). The poll isn't the highest point, the neck 'breaks' to far back which usually means the horse backed off from the bit instead up and out to the bit.

The picture of the horse with the saddle on and no rider (Horse without Bruce - last one in series) doesn't show the muscling I'd expect to see over the top of the neck for a horse that is working correctly over its back. The majority of the mass is towards the bottom of the neck. It doesn't have that nice thick bread roll of muscling running along the top of the neck. Not like I'd expect from a horse that's been in training for any period of time.

The one pic that I really like is the one called "collected". It's on the second row (on my phone) and second in from the left. That looks the most correct of all the pictures where the horse is actively working.

I don't like the guy's riding style though. He's hunched over in the shoulders, and his lower leg swings quite far forward when riding. To me, that would add a lot of noise to the cues and prevent the subtlety of aids that a Bridled horse would require. Everything I've read about bridle horses suggests that 95-98% of aids are from seat/legs and not through the hand. If that's the case then a swinging lower leg with the hunched rider position would give a lot of conflicting messages to a horse. I'm sure the horse can tune out the swinging leg and bumpy seat, but that defeats the whole idea of what a Bridle horse is supposed to be, doesn't it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## franknbeans

Opal said:


> I think you missed this Core
> 
> *Also, I actually think that reining/cutting shows a lot less collection than a GOOD, (Morgan) WP rider. You use neck reining to control reiners/cutters, and so far with my experience, I've never heard a single reiner/cutter even mention/seem like they care about collection.*
> 
> Again, I think we have different opinions when it comes to collection. I believe that collection can vary based on the horse and the discipline, and the collection simply involves being on the bit and engaging a horse's haunches and that his hind legs should be reaching over the places where his front hooves last left the ground in a stride. You, from what I understand, believe that collection is simply as what is defined by the USDF and nothing more. It is true that balance is an important part of WP, but I have NEVER heard of anyone who does WP (Morgan) and does not plan on collecting there horse, at least in the way that WP defines collection. WP riders cannot show the level of extension and "floaty" gaits a dressage horse can-- that's not WP. Collection, in my opinion, it imparative to balance and I've ALWAYS been taught collection when I did WP. Trying to do WP without "collection" would just....uggg...I can't even fathom it.


Just glancing through this thread, as I thought it ran its course long ago, but...I couldn't let this slide (no pun intended;-) ) If you really believe this, you haven't been around many reiners. 

I will say that I find WP in Morgans (as with ANY of the "pleasure" classes with Morgans, honestly) to not look like anything I have ever seen of considered to be a "pleasure"! Tight reins, some in double bridle (one of the so called "pleasure" classes)......granted I don't know a ton about it, but have watched a few, since my niece shows at the world level in Morgan Pleasure.......

I also would just ask, and this is an honest question-why all the discussion about "bridle horses"? It seems to be being used almost synonymously with WD? 

Anebel-honestly-get over the bit. It is only harsh if you actually use it, which most of us rarely do. I was petrified of a curb (**gasp**) when I first started riding reiners-but honestly-I never need to engage it. A slight change in the lift of the reins without any true contact as you know it is all that is needed. If it was that horrible my horse would not be practically diving into his headstall, would he?:wink:


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## longride

Core - I"ll give you that the picture of the horse 'As it should be" most definitely isn't as it should be. The horse is broken at the 3rd vertebrae in that one, but not all the horses are. Even that same horse is allowed to carry himself better in other shots. 

Frankenbeans, I think bridle horses come up so often in WD discussions because A. they are in the public eye now and B. the traditional training of the bridle horse closely follows the baroque dressage training methods that are the basis for modern dressage. When the Spanish sent horses to the Americas they were also exporting to the rest of Europe a style of training that began with a cavesson and only moved to a bit when the horse was fully balanced and ready to carry it. With modifications as the needs of the military changed, this became modern dressage. Bridle horses also have the carriage that people associate with dressage as opposed to the modern stock horse level top line.


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## COWCHICK77

franknbeans said:


> I also would just ask, and this is an honest question-why all the discussion about "bridle horses"? It seems to be being used almost synonymously with WD?


There was discussion about collection between dressage riders and western riders. I have never ridden dressage and do not know anything about it, so for me to post pics of horses or styles I am familiar with and have them critique them would give a better idea of where they are coming from. 
Everyone was using the word collection, but I think everyone had a different idea of it exactly. If that makes sense...I am not very articulate! LOL!



core said:


> In my opinion, most of the ridden pics show a horse that isn't correct (in terms of dressage). The poll isn't the highest point, the neck 'breaks' to far back which usually means the horse backed off from the bit instead up and out to the bit.
> 
> The picture of the horse with the saddle on and no rider (Horse without Bruce - last one in series) doesn't show the muscling I'd expect to see over the top of the neck for a horse that is working correctly over its back. The majority of the mass is towards the bottom of the neck. It doesn't have that nice thick bread roll of muscling running along the top of the neck. Not like I'd expect from a horse that's been in training for any period of time.
> 
> The one pic that I really like is the one called "collected". It's on the second row (on my phone) and second in from the left. That looks the most correct of all the pictures where the horse is actively working.
> 
> I don't like the guy's riding style though. He's hunched over in the shoulders, and his lower leg swings quite far forward when riding. To me, that would add a lot of noise to the cues and prevent the subtlety of aids that a Bridled horse would require. Everything I've read about bridle horses suggests that 95-98% of aids are from seat/legs and not through the hand. If that's the case then a swinging lower leg with the hunched rider position would give a lot of conflicting messages to a horse. I'm sure the horse can tune out the swinging leg and bumpy seat, but that defeats the whole idea of what a Bridle horse is supposed to be, doesn't it?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you, I see what your saying. 
Again, I am not trying to derail this thread, I just want to see what dressage riders see when they look at a western version of collection and western dressage. Of course those are not western dressage pics, but you get the idea. I didn't want to post pics of horses ridden two handed with a lot of contact in a curb bit. That is my issue with WD from what I have seen so far.(only pics, never been to a show)

(P.S. I too noticed the body position, but only because in the last year or so I have been working hard on fixing mine!)


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## longride

You know, I've found it very difficult to find pictures to express concepts like collection, cadence, etc in western horses because I don't see it in the rail classes, whether morgan or aqha, and the working classes - reining, cutting, and the Ranch Horse classes always post pictures of horses working, mostly at speed. I found a lovely video of a bridle horse trainer using a very correct leg yield to move into a calf to sort it, but such moments are rare - kinda like trying to get pictures of a correct collected canter of an eventer while its on the cross country course. You know they can do it but... Even the training videos all focus on the skills training - how to spin, roll back, etc and not how to get rhythm, suppleness and carriage. Yet I know from talking with judges and trainers that there is a lot of that basic work going on at home in the training pen. But no one wants to post video or pictures of that. It isn't exciting.


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## bsms

A collected gait per FEI definition isn't very useful to a lot of western riding. I think what a lot of western trainers call collection is what Littauer called "gathering", to distinguish it in the world of jumping from collection. It is a short duration shift in balance to prepare for something else - a sharp turn, for example. I think it would eliminate a lot of confusion if we would leave 'collection' to dressage and the FEI, and find a different word. But that isn't very likely...


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## Opal

franknbeans said:


> I will say that I find WP in Morgans (as with ANY of the "pleasure" classes with Morgans, honestly) to not look like anything I have ever seen of considered to be a "pleasure"! Tight reins, some in double bridle (one of the so called "pleasure" classes)......granted I don't know a ton about it, but have watched a few, since my niece shows at the world level in Morgan Pleasure.......


I know, I kind of unexpectedly revived the thread, but I'm fine with that. I like the discussion I'm seeing. No one is being aggressive or looks like their trying to pick fights or deny perfectly valid evidence just for the sake of denying it, so I don't think anything is wrong with reviving it 

Morgans are ridden very different from other breeds in pleasure type classes. It's mostly based on confirmation though. In a Morgan, a thick neck that comes high out of the shoulder is preferable and confimationally correct. In a QH, their necks are bred not only to be longer and less arched, but so that they come out of the should at a lower angle. Because of this, Morgans can be collected and in frame in a totally different way than a QH. You said that the reins were tight, but I think you may have witnessed that at lower levels because I've never seen anyone who will win a high level Western Pleasure class with a good, fair judge and tight reins. The following link http://www.morganhorse.com/upload/photos/1822western.jpg is one of my favorites to demonstrate what I call a near perfect WP picture. The Man has nice equitation, the horse is in frame and moving off the back end. His neck is beautiful and what I call "collected", and he looks happy with the bit, not gaping and there's no sign of slobber showing he was at any point.

I was actually sort of on board with you until you said "Double Bridle". Where on earth did you see a Morgan horse, IN a pleasure class, with a double bridle?! I've never seen nor heard of that in my life! XD Do you think you could find a picture?


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## jaydee

I think its going to be inevitable that until WD is well established we're going to see lots of different types of horses ridden by people from very different western and english disciplines 'giving it a go'. We're also going to see lots more variety of breeds involved - though even conventional dressage at the lower to mid level (which in Europe is still dressage and still taken very seriously) we see just about every type and breed there is getting involved and having fun while they learn something new
I found a couple of pics and have thrown in one of a conventional dressage rider to compare. 
Of course people will find faults with them because thats what people do - but there are pics out there of top riders in all horse sports looking really awful at times - getting it wrong is in no way exclusive
It would be nice if we could have a thread about WD that was looking for the positive and encouraging people to do something different or find a place in western riding that previously didnt exist for them.


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## COWCHICK77

bsms said:


> A collected gait per FEI definition isn't very useful to a lot of western riding. I think what a lot of western trainers call collection is what Littauer called "gathering", to distinguish it in the world of jumping from collection. It is a short duration shift in balance to prepare for something else - a sharp turn, for example. I think it would eliminate a lot of confusion if we would leave 'collection' to dressage and the FEI, and find a different word. But that isn't very likely...


I can identify with this comment. (from an outside horse point of view)
It just is not realistic to ask a horse to trot a large chunk of ground "collected" while checking cows, but asking to "gather" himself before turning one down the fence or sorting is realistic.


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## jaydee

COWCHICK77 said:


> I can identify with this comment. (from an outside horse point of view)
> It just is not realistic to ask a horse to trot a large chunk of ground "collected" while checking cows, but asking to "gather" himself before turning one down the fence or sorting is realistic.


 I think you can apply this to a lot of things - you might not see the finesse but the action is still there
I had a pony that was the tops in pony club dressage and mounted games - seems like an odd combination but it was her ability to be able to extend and collect up at a touch and be really balanced that made her so agile and nippy around the posts


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## deserthorsewoman

COWCHICK77 said:


> I can identify with this comment. (from an outside horse point of view)
> It just is not realistic to ask a horse to trot a large chunk of ground "collected" while checking cows, but asking to "gather" himself before turning one down the fence or sorting is realistic.


This is exactly why I so agree with gathering as expression, not collection. The German word for it is VERSAMMLUNG = gathering
collection means SAMMLUNG...a collection of pictures, for example....collectibles.
Versammlung instead is a gathering of people, a meeting of members of a club, 

I think collection isn't the right word to translate Versammlung

Thanks, bsms, for bringing this up and allowing me to brainstorm


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## franknbeans

Opal said:


> I know, I kind of unexpectedly revived the thread, but I'm fine with that. I like the discussion I'm seeing. No one is being aggressive or looks like their trying to pick fights or deny perfectly valid evidence just for the sake of denying it, so I don't think anything is wrong with reviving it
> 
> Morgans are ridden very different from other breeds in pleasure type classes. It's mostly based on confirmation though. In a Morgan, a thick neck that comes high out of the shoulder is preferable and confimationally correct. In a QH, their necks are bred not only to be longer and less arched, but so that they come out of the should at a lower angle. Because of this, Morgans can be collected and in frame in a totally different way than a QH. You said that the reins were tight, but I think you may have witnessed that at lower levels because I've never seen anyone who will win a high level Western Pleasure class with a good, fair judge and tight reins. The following link http://www.morganhorse.com/upload/photos/1822western.jpg is one of my favorites to demonstrate what I call a near perfect WP picture. The Man has nice equitation, the horse is in frame and moving off the back end. His neck is beautiful and what I call "collected", and he looks happy with the bit, not gaping and there's no sign of slobber showing he was at any point.
> 
> I was actually sort of on board with you until you said "Double Bridle". Where on earth did you see a Morgan horse, IN a pleasure class, with a double bridle?! I've never seen nor heard of that in my life! XD Do you think you could find a picture?


There are several classes I have watched my niece in, only one was western, and that did not have the tight reins or double bridle. I think the double bridle thing was maybe park seat pleasure? Then the tight reins was something like "hunt seat pleasure".......which with tight reins went against everything I always learned about in H/J.. I go watch her......I don't ask a lot of questions, and have never been a fan of saddleseat, which she does a lot of.......totally foreign to me........and not sure where in the family tree she got this from-dad was a cowboy. ;-) If it is judged on confirmation that makes more sense to me.


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## Opal

@Frankenbeans

Oh, well that makes a lot more sense. You use a double bridle in park horse classes, everyone does. It's required. Also, of course the reins are going to be tight in Huntseat classes, that's how the horses are ridden. There should be a direct line of contact from the mouth and all the way up the forearm before the rider's arm bends at the elbow. Using and double bridle in Park classes or having tighter reins in Huntseat classes are expected and looked for, and there's abo****ely nothing wrong with either.


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## longride

> A collected gait per FEI definition isn't very useful to a lot of western riding. I think what a lot of western trainers call collection is what Littauer called "gathering", to distinguish it in the world of jumping from collection. It is a short duration shift in balance to prepare for something else - a sharp turn, for example. I think it would eliminate a lot of confusion if we would leave 'collection' to dressage and the FEI, and find a different word. But that isn't very likely...


In dressage terms it doesn't matter. It isn't the length of time is done, but the bio-mechanics of how the horse does it that makes it collection or not collection. Check, gather, or maintained, it's how the horse tucks the pelvis, reaches further under the body and uses the neck to create passive tension on the ligaments of the back and neck. Without that element of the effect on the back, it doesn't matter if the head is up, face at the vertical and the horse is trotting in place. It's still not collected. OTOH if it's all there for two strides to prepare for a jump or a turn, it is collected. 

That said, I agree that no working horse, whether it's a hunter, driving horse, event horse or cow horse should stay in collection all the time. Where maintained collection comes in for the working horse is like a work out at the gym. The strength gained by the exercise can be used for other things.


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## Tessa7707

What are your thoughts on this horse? I'm still learning what a bridle horse is exactly supposed to be. Is this an accurate demonstration of a good bridle horse?


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## GotaDunQH

Opal said:


> I know, I kind of unexpectedly revived the thread, but I'm fine with that. I like the discussion I'm seeing. No one is being aggressive or looks like their trying to pick fights or deny perfectly valid evidence just for the sake of denying it, so I don't think anything is wrong with reviving it
> 
> Morgans are ridden very different from other breeds in pleasure type classes. It's mostly based on confirmation though. In a Morgan, a thick neck that comes high out of the shoulder is preferable and confimationally correct. In a QH, their necks are bred not only to be longer and less arched, but so that they come out of the should at a lower angle.* Because of this, Morgans can be collected and in frame in a totally different way than a QH.* You said that the reins were tight, but I think you may have witnessed that at lower levels because I've never seen anyone who will win a high level Western Pleasure class with a good, fair judge and tight reins. The following link http://www.morganhorse.com/upload/photos/1822western.jpg is one of my favorites to demonstrate what I call a near perfect WP picture. The Man has nice equitation, the horse is in frame and moving off the back end. His neck is beautiful and what I call "collected", and he looks happy with the bit, not gaping and there's no sign of slobber showing he was at any point.
> 
> I was actually sort of on board with you until you said "Double Bridle". Where on earth did you see a Morgan horse, IN a pleasure class, with a double bridle?! I've never seen nor heard of that in my life! XD Do you think you could find a picture?


I have to step in here for a second to comment on the bold. Collection entails correct use of back, and from all the Morgan WP horses I've seen up close and personal being shown in a WP class....there was no use of back. The backs were dropped and hollow. You CAN'T have collection without a lifted back....sorry.


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## Opal

@Gotadun
I see your point, but I guess what my trainer always called collection is more, by definition, being "in frame" as opposed to the dressage definition of collection 
I don't think that the quote worked so well for what you were saying though, because all I was saying in my comment was that a Morgan (any horse can collect-- I wasn't refering to WP or any specific discipline, just collection in general regardless of WD or anything else) collects differently than a QH just based on confirmation and build. A Horse with a neck that comes high out of the shoulders and a shorter back is going to look a little different when collected, and I mean the exact definition of collection as defined by the USDF completely disregarding anything else I said regarding the definition of collection  Does that make more sense?


----------



## GotaDunQH

Opal said:


> @Gotadun
> I see your point, but I guess what my trainer always called collection is more, by definition, being "in frame" as opposed to the dressage definition of collection
> I don't think that the quote worked so well for what you were saying though, because all I was saying in my comment was that a Morgan (any horse can collect-- I wasn't refering to WP or any specific discipline, just collection in general regardless of WD or anything else) collects differently than a QH just based on confirmation and build. A Horse with a neck that comes high out of the shoulders and a shorter back is going to look a little different when collected, and I mean the exact definition of collection as defined by the USDF completely disregarding anything else I said regarding the definition of collection  Does that make more sense?


And I see your point too...but that is where people often mistake "frame" for collection. I actually hate the word "frame" as much as I hate the word "head set". Most of the people that use the word "frame" are using a visualization of what the horse "looks" like. And then...the horse is USUALLY in a false "frame"...forced into it however, the horse is not using it's body at all. 

And yes, ALL horses can collect to some point given their conformation and training, but it's about use of back and that's a big part of it. IMO, the neck is the last thing I look at. Example, with ASB's, the neck is up and straight out of the shoulder and wither..everything is up/down and "contained" in movement....however, they don't concern themselves with use of back and hind end...hence what they think LOOKS like collection, really isn't at all.


----------



## GotaDunQH

And Opal...please don't think I'm being snarky...but the Arab, ASB, and Morgan show people are most interested in "animation" from their horses then correct use of body. Don't get me wrong...I LOVE that animation as I have owned Arabs, Morgans and worked with ASB's! There's nothing like the raw power of a 5 gaited ASB. Then I went QH a few decades ago.

I'm glad that you have found WD to your liking and I wish you luck with it. For me, I have no use for it and what I have seen so far has not impressed me and is not Dressage at all. It's like a longer Horsemanship pattern, and I do that already at AQHA shows, one handed in a shanked bit, on a loose rein. Now THAT shows how well trained a western horse is in a pattern because you aren't in the horse's mouth. The horse has learned to pick up that bit and pack it and work off seat and leg.


----------



## Opal

@Gotadun
Yeah, I totally agree with what you are saying.
Although, when I am practicing collecting, the main idea is to get my horse to step under himself and really engage his hindquarters. I can always feel when he does this, and what I always understood as collecting was that feeling where he engages his haunches and his poll becomes the highest point. I practice this when I ride, but I've (believe it or not) never gotten to see a video of my own riding, so I'm not sure if it's correct or not. After having a lovely discussion with everyone on here, I'm not sure that what I was doing previous is correct for collection.

Oh no, I don't think you're being snarky at all  If anything, I'm just striving to further my knowledge and understanding, not prove anything to be true or false about WD. I just want to know how I can improve my own concept of things, and understand other peoples points of view and thoughts on the matter  As long as nobody is rude or demeaning to me about what I do, then I have no problem discussing WD positively or negatively with anyone 

"Hotblooded" breeds are always interested more in animation, but that's one of the good things I've found in WD is that the way I ride/the way my trainer teaches it and what not is trying to encourage good use of body rather than just "looking good". There's a lot of things in WD I don't particularly agree with or like either, but I try to see the good things and the potential in it, and it really is the basic ideas and concepts that I believe are the good things in WD as opposed to what I'm observing  It's just really hard to find pictures that are a good example of what WD SHOULD be, as opposed to what it is right now.


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## COWCHICK77

Tessa7707 said:


> What are your thoughts on this horse? I'm still learning what a bridle horse is exactly supposed to be. Is this an accurate demonstration of a good bridle horse?
> Vaquero Bridle Horse Sale / Sold - YouTube


I hate the swishing tail!!!! 
I am not a big fan of this guy, just my opinion there are some that do like him.
As far as YouTube videos available I like Martin Black better for using horses. But also look up Richard Caldwell.


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## Opal

COWCHICK77 said:


> I hate the swishing tail!!!!
> I am not a big fan of this guy, just my opinion there are some that do like him.
> As far as YouTube videos available I like Martin Black better for using horses. But also look up Richard Caldwell.


His tail wasn't swishing TOO much, and I know a good lot of horses from all disciplines which swish their tails. My horse (and a ton of other horses) swish their tails when cued for a canter. I don't think swishing tail makes or breaks a horse since it can be a variety of different things that causes a horse to swish their tail.

That being said, I'd be curious to see what someone who's familiar with bridle horses has to say about the horse.


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## longride

His tail is swishing in reaction to the spur, which shows tension. We see a lot of tail swishing in dressage tests. The horse loses points every time it happens. Yes, tension and therefore tail swishing can be caused by a lot of things, but I've seen lovely tests and exhibitions much longer than this where the horse never swished his tail. The horse should not react with tension to aids from the rider. To me it is a big minus in performance. This horse isn't really too bad, but it's there.


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## deserthorsewoman

Opal said:


> His tail wasn't swishing TOO much, and I know a good lot of horses from all disciplines which swish their tails. My horse (and a ton of other horses) swish their tails when cued for a canter. I don't think swishing tail makes or breaks a horse since it can be a variety of different things that causes a horse to swish their tail.
> 
> That being said, I'd be curious to see what someone who's familiar with bridle horses has to say about the horse.


COWCHICK IS familiar with bridle horses.


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## Opal

@Deserthorsewoman
Oh, alright 

@Longride
Yes, I do notice it quite a lot in dressage. I guess it's funny that JJ only does it when asked for a transition to the canter, not other transitions. I don't wear spurs when I ride since JJ is responsive enough not to need them, but I guess it may have developed before he was mine and someone else cued him harshly or what not. I agree that tail swishing can be a sign of resistance and tension though. I've also noticed that it can be a concentration or a "thinking" sort of reaction too, but the horse in the video obviously was reacting to the spurs/cues.


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## Tessa7707

COWCHICK77 said:


> I hate the swishing tail!!!!
> I am not a big fan of this guy, just my opinion there are some that do like him.
> As far as YouTube videos available I like Martin Black better for using horses. But also look up Richard Caldwell.


Thanks! I'm just trying to get an idea of what an honestly collected western horse looks like. All my influences have either taught that headset is collection, or they have been dressage or English influences, so, just trying to bring it all together into the western collected horse.


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## deserthorsewoman

Tessa7707 said:


> Thanks! I'm just trying to get an idea of what an honestly collected western horse looks like. All my influences have either taught that headset is collection, or they have been dressage or English influences, so, just trying to bring it all together into the western collected horse.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGH6W946dFw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I had a different video in mind, but can't find it......so that one will have to do for now


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## jaydee

Is it this one?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSLpyfzihts


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## deserthorsewoman

Yeah, thanks jaydee


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## Opal

@Everyone
What do you all think of this video? There's parts of it I like, and part of it I don't XD If anyone responds than I'll tell you what I think more in detail


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## GotaDunQH

What I DIDN'T like was the herky-jerky contact in the big bit the horse had in it's mouth. He went from no contact to contact, no contact to contact....quite often. The only part I DID like was the reining spins....when he got off the horse's face and let him spin.


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## longride

Quick assessment. What I did like - the nose always in front of the vertical. Only place you see that now is videos of the SRS under Podhasky. The extended trot was horrible. False elevation of the neck, back hollowed, hind legs trailing and front end flailing. Canter work showed horse working well under his body, good articulation of the joints. 2nd piaffe was ok. Could show more impulsion and articulation of joints of the hind legs. Tended to go hollow in the passage. Tended to swing the hind quarters on the flying changes. I think this was because of how he was asked rather than lack of engagement. Horse carries bit well. There was perhaps some excessive salivation but I couldn't see any of the snapping at the bit that heavy hands produce. There was no sign either in the horse's expression or in any irregularity of the gaits that it found the bit uncomfortable or the contact erratic except in the preparation for the extended trot, where it was obvious. Like most exhibition riders there was no concern for the quality of the transitions. nuff said.


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## Opal

@GotaDun and Longride
(Gotadun, I also replied to you 1-2 pages back  I don't know if you missed it or just chose not to reply but I don't mind either way)

There were places, especially in the very beginning where his horse (This is Eitan and Holiday Compadre if you're familiar with them) was looking around and upheaded which I didn't care for. I can kind of sympathize since a huge bellowing crowd and clapping people can be a stimulation overload to a horse (and a rider for that matter), but I noticed other things throughout which were noticable enough not to excuse the way Compadre was coming out of the bridle at the beginning. Right off the bat, I found the fact that he was using two hands and a curb bit irritating. Later on after he started performing high level dressage manuvers like piaffe and passage, my irritation with it built up because after training and intro level dressage (1st level too? I don't recall) you're required to ride one handed; only in the lower levels do you have the option of riding two handed. So, he's riding around doing all these upper level dressage movements, but still doing two handed with a curb. I also disliked how at times he threw himself and his hands forward like a reiner, but then at other times had his horse all collected up. 
On the good side, I thought that his tempi were nice, even though his horse sort of swung to the side/bent to the side when he asked. I thought the piaffe and passage had good rhythm, but I did notice that the horse seemed very excited and shuffled his feet a few times. Despite that, I thought throughout the performace that the horse had very nice and consistent suspension.
Back to the bad (or moreso the uncertain), I was unimpressed by the....side pass at the canter? Because I've never seen that done before. It just looked weird to me, and I wasn't really sure what that was. Just seemed awkward.
At the time when I was watching it, I thought the extended trot was impressive, but after going back and reading what Longride had to say, I believe I agree. Not only with the extended trot did I notice this, but everything looked very....rushed. Like he had taught the horse in a hurry to get ready for the show rather than in a slow, consciencious manner which prevents the horse from getting to excited and what not. Still, I thought it was a nice performance and I think I'd rather show this to someone curious about Western Dressage and just point out some of the problems rather than show them some of the more popular videos on youtube that I really dislike as examples of western dressage.

Please, if you have anything else to add or disagree with what I said, don't be afraid to speak up as long as it's in a non-degrading manner XD I'm only 15, and really my top priority is just educated myself and learning about other perspectives/views rather than proving anything to anyone about western dressage


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## GotaDunQH

^I'll go back and look....


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## GotaDunQH

Opal said:


> @Gotadun
> Yeah, I totally agree with what you are saying.
> *Although, when I am practicing collecting, the main idea is to get my horse to step under himself and really engage his hindquarters. I can always feel when he does this, and what I always understood as collecting was that feeling where he engages his haunches and his poll becomes the highest point. I practice this when I ride, but I've (believe it or not) never gotten to see a video of my own riding, so I'm not sure if it's correct or not. After having a lovely discussion with everyone on here, I'm not sure that what I was doing previous is correct for collection.*
> 
> Oh no, I don't think you're being snarky at all  If anything, I'm just striving to further my knowledge and understanding, not prove anything to be true or false about WD. I just want to know how I can improve my own concept of things, and understand other peoples points of view and thoughts on the matter  As long as nobody is rude or demeaning to me about what I do, then I have no problem discussing WD positively or negatively with anyone
> 
> "Hotblooded" breeds are always interested more in animation, but that's one of the good things I've found in WD is that the way I ride/the way my trainer teaches it and what not is trying to encourage good use of body rather than just "looking good". There's a lot of things in WD I don't particularly agree with or like either, but I try to see the good things and the potential in it, and it really is the basic ideas and concepts that I believe are the good things in WD as opposed to what I'm observing  It's just really hard to find pictures that are a good example of what WD SHOULD be, as opposed to what it is right now.


Yes, stepping under is a big part of it...but could have a horse stepping under, poll at the highest point....but a back not lifted. The other two don't make it collection, unless you have the last one.


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## jaydee

I did point out in an earlier post that Eitan & Michael Martin have now split from WD and are concentrating on their own Cowboy Dressage that will be having its own tests and markers - not the same as used in conventional dressage. They seem to have been concerned that WD was going to be swallowed up and lose its western identity
The display did have its faults - but it was a display and not a ridden test. Morgan horses do tend to have that naturally high head carriage and this horse also has a very thick neck which is going to have some impact on it too.
I do have concerns that the traditional western long shanked bits ridden with 2 reins are going to cause some problems used in a dressage context - Eitan is a very experienced light handed rider and the horse a seasoned performer but you can see the horse backing off at times so hows it going to work with a less able rider on a more average horse?
The other thing to remember is that Eitan was a dressage rider first in his home country and adopted the western riding when he moved to the US
Compadre was originally a champion freestyle reiner
Not sure if this link will work
Cowboy Dressage World Champion Holiday Compadre and Free Style Reining - Repeat in a loop


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## Opal

@Gotadun
I definitely think that might be something I'm leaving out, or at least not taking into consideration when I "collect". It's actually really helped me talking to you and the others here because it's raised my awareness about classical dressage and collection specifically. I really appreciate the replies and everything 

(Will reply to others shortly)


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## longride

Opal, you're very articulate and have a good eye. 

Eitan is an exhibition rider. He chooses what to do based on what pleases a crowd, not on how correct it is by dressage standards. Full pass is a dressage movement. It isn't tested because compared to all the other lateral work it is fairly simple and not used much to supple the horse. It's handy, like turn on the forehand. For Cowboy Dressage Eitan has been very clear that correct placement of the horse's body is less important than prompt calm obedience, which is why he separated himself from the WDAA, which believes dressage exercises should be done correctly for the gymnastic benefit to be effective. For CD if two horses showed the same soft obedient test, correctness of the movements would be the tie breaker. For WD if both horses scored equally on correctness of performance, overall relaxation and freedom would be the tie breaker. In both disciplines the perfect horse would look the same. 

BTW, I mentioned snapping of the teeth as a sign of heavy hands. GotaDunQH, you're dead on on this one. While not evident in THIS video, others of Compadre show clearly that the gaping mouth and snapping teeth are habitual with him. Eitan says this is the correct use of the roller by the tongue. I find it extremely disturbing. BTW, Opal, Eitan would be deeply hurt that you felt Compadre's training was rushed. The concept of slow, progressive training is the dressage principle that Eitan feels is the foundation of Cowboy Dressage.


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## Britt

I don't know much about Western Dressage, ad I haven't read this thread from one end to the other, but what little I do know about it is interesting. 

Dressage is one type of riding I'd love to be able to do, but due to nerve damage and other issues in my knees, it hurts me to ride english. 

Western Dressage is definately something I'm looking into for the future. To be able to ride comfortably in a western saddle while riding in one of the styles I'd love to learn would be awesome!


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## Opal

@Longride

Thank you  That is reassuring.

It's unfortunate that gaping and snapping seem to be a trend with Compadre. I agree with you that I find it unattractive and disturbing. Even if the bit is "working properly", gaping and snapping obviously isn't a....pleasent reaction. If you (Not speaking to you specifically, just stating something XD) had a bit in your mouth and had the impulse to chomp at it and obviously make....uncomfortable gestures, then you should have a different bit. I'm certain that with the plethora of other types of bits out there that it is possible to find an effective bit for an excitable stallion that works without him gaping and chomping at it, right?

I guess that's why I was never familiar with a full pass. Still, at the canter it just seems weird XD Certaintly not pleasing to me, personally.

I did think it just looked rushed :/ It may have been just because of nerves or due to the lack of focus on "correctness" rather than him actually having rushed Compadres training, but it just looked like there were little things about each manuver that could have been easily corrected, like how Compadre bent to the side slightly when doing tempi. Instead of a nice straight line of tempi, it was kind of a...wiggle XD Also, you'd think that Eitan would at least get the extended trot right, right? I don't think it would take that much more effort to do it correctly as opposed to just enough so that it looks good for the crowd.

I'd personally LOVE to see Eitan do a WD (or Cowboy Dressage) test. I've seen him do clinics and performances obviously (My mother actually did a clinic with him 2 years back. It was very cool.) since he is close and works closely with my trainer (Cliff Swanson, not sure if you're familiar XD) But I've never seen him do a full, serious WD test where he is being judging on everything he should be judged on. I'd LOVE to see that.


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## jaydee

Link to Eitans Cowboy Dressage website which is worth looking at as it tells a lot about his own history and that of his vision for cowboy dressage
Cowboy Dressage? at Wolf Creek Ranch
Compadre is not a young horse and Eitan has been working with him for many years - not rushed at all. Another video of him from 1993 - but you have to again differentiate between a performance for a crowd and a test thats looking for correctness




*Britt* - I think either CD or WD would be ideal for you - a chance to do something challenging without losing your western saddle.
The Cowboy Dressage channel on Youtube gives some different examples of other breeds doing basic tests - many ridden on a much longer rein and lower head carriage typical for their breed.
They also seem to be moving into other things - like this video here




I think there's plenty of room in the horse competition world for something new


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## deserthorsewoman

The garrocha is moving into cowboy dressage....now lookahere... .this is Spanish riding, doma vaquera, at it's best, or should be. I've seen a Californio (bridle horse, remember) do it. Now, he would be the one who could, since that's where his kind of riding comes from....Spain.

What im seeing, more and more now, that somebody wants to re-invent the wheel and wants the credit for it. Give it a new, trendy, catchy name and make people think they're doing something special. 

I can imagine what Eitan had in mind when he first started, tho.

Please, Opal, longride and others who are doing it, don't take what I said personal. 
I just think there was already WD/CD, just not called that.


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## deserthorsewoman

This is not bad, IMO....I still wouldn't want to call it dressage, but that's maybe the European in me;-)


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## jaydee

I think its all down to the interpretation of the word Dressage as you dont even have to be riding a horse to do a dressage test in some contexts




And that takes it back to the original translation of the french word as 'training' and the competitions being a test of that training in whatever discipline
However I would not want to reopen that can of worms!!!


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## deserthorsewoman

I hear you;-)
I think the problem IS the interpretation of the word "dressage", just like the interpretation of the word "collection". Coincidence???


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## Opal

@Deserthorsewoman

Oh no, I'm not taking anything personally  Everyone is entitled to their own opinions of course. I can't look at the videos now because of the school server I am on, but I'll look at them when I get home.

I do politely disagree with you though, as I believe that WD in the least provides an opportunity for people to do something they normally couldn't, like the person who posted just a few posts back that has a bad back and can't ride english. 

Some people also say that WD is just the same thing as reining, and it's definitely not. XD Just my opinion. You do not do upper level dressage manuvers in reining. Reining is it's own, unique thing and is quite different from dressage in my opinion even if they do share some similarities. My horse can do WD, obviously, but he could never be a reining horse xD


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## Opal

(Double post)


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## jaydee

deserthorsewoman said:


> The garrocha is moving into cowboy dressage....now lookahere... .this is Spanish riding, doma vaquera, at it's best, or should be. I've seen a Californio (bridle horse, remember) do it. Now, he would be the one who could, since that's where his kind of riding comes from....Spain.
> 
> What im seeing, more and more now, that somebody wants to re-invent the wheel and wants the credit for it. Give it a new, trendy, catchy name and make people think they're doing something special.
> 
> I can imagine what Eitan had in mind when he first started, tho.
> 
> Please, Opal, longride and others who are doing it, don't take what I said personal.
> I just think there was already WD/CD, just not called that.


 I think if you check that video you'll find that it is called 'La Garrocha' and not being relabelled as CD or WD - the person doing the Freestyle demo is in fact Jeff Sanders of Modern Vaquero trying to show what can be achieved. They seem to be very interested in getting involved with CD & Eitan as it opens up new doors for them too in promoting the 'bridle horse' concept and keeping the tradition alive and well into the future
MODERN VAQUERO


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## GotaDunQH

deserthorsewoman said:


> Cowboy Dressage Challenge - YouTube
> 
> This is not bad, IMO....I still wouldn't want to call it dressage, but that's maybe the European in me;-)


I'm sorry, but that does not impress me at all. Go to an AQHA show, watch a trail class and you'll see horses LOPING those poles and not hitting a darn one of them.


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## Opal

@Video (That GotaDun quoted)

It was...interesting, but I thought that it just looked like a trail class set up in a dressage ring to me. Even then, I've seen much more careful and well trained trail horses than that horse was. His turn on the forehand looked like what we call jokingly a "turn in the middle", but I wasn't sure if it was supposed to be a turn on the forehand to a turn on the haunches(?) If it was, it should have been more defined and I shouldn't have been left confused. I didn't think it demonstrated many dressage skills or ideas at all. Just my opinion XD


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## deserthorsewoman

@jaydee ...couldn't watch the garrocha video, not available for mobile, but have seen somebody else do it. Might have been Sanders even.
@Opal....reading what jaydee said abound Sanders aka ModernVaquero being interested in CD....the rider doing the test is Sanders....and I BET he hasn't practiced anything, has no CD trainer. He has a bridle horse and rides the test with it. It's not about who hits the poles or such, it's about being precise in the maneuvers which should be simulating cowboy work. 
I, personally, don't see any sense for passage or piaffe in everyday cowboy work. Half a turn on the fore, and a whole over the haunches instead is useful. 
Doing highest level dressage maneuvers in a westernsaddle is just that...doing highest level dressage maneuvers in a westernsaddle. For what? At least vaqueros and Spaniards/Portuguese work cattle and still have really well trained horses who function on a thought alone.

Now, doing WD or CD to arrive at these levels is a different story and I'm all for it.


----------



## GotaDunQH

Opal said:


> @Video (That GotaDun quoted)
> 
> It was...interesting, but I thought that it just looked like a trail class set up in a dressage ring to me. Even then, I've seen much more careful and well trained trail horses than that horse was. His turn on the forehand looked like what we call jokingly a "turn in the middle", but I wasn't sure if it was supposed to be a turn on the forehand to a turn on the haunches(?) If it was, it should have been more defined and I shouldn't have been left confused. I didn't think it demonstrated many dressage skills or ideas at all. Just my opinion XD


Yea, I wondered the same thing about the turns. It was a mess.


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## deserthorsewoman

The announcer said "half turn on forehand to the right then whole turn on the haunches to the left and vice versa.


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## GotaDunQH

deserthorsewoman said:


> The announcer said "half turn on forehand to the right then whole turn on the haunches to the left and vice versa.


 
Still not impressed....I've seen better from Amateurs in a Horsemanship pattern. I saw a fussy horse.


----------



## deserthorsewoman

This horse probably has never seen an indoor arena, audience and all these white things on the ground. For that it was doing quite well. 
I don't think WD/CD people want to do anything that is done in an AQHA show.
What it reminds me of is a class of the European Quarter Horse championships in the 90's called "westernriding". A little bit of everything, some trail obstacles, a bit pleasure, a stop and a spin, all very classy and sophisticated with a more collected horse. I'll see if I can find footage.....


----------



## Opal

deserthorsewoman said:


> @jaydee ...couldn't watch the garrocha video, not available for mobile, but have seen somebody else do it. Might have been Sanders even.
> @Opal....reading what jaydee said abound Sanders aka ModernVaquero being interested in CD....the rider doing the test is Sanders....and I BET he hasn't practiced anything, has no CD trainer. He has a bridle horse and rides the test with it. It's not about who hits the poles or such, it's about being precise in the maneuvers which should be simulating cowboy work.
> I, personally, don't see any sense for passage or piaffe in everyday cowboy work. Half a turn on the fore, and a whole over the haunches instead is useful.
> Doing highest level dressage maneuvers in a westernsaddle is just that...doing highest level dressage maneuvers in a westernsaddle. For what? At least vaqueros and Spaniards/Portuguese work cattle and still have really well trained horses who function on a thought alone.
> 
> Now, doing WD or CD to arrive at these levels is a different story and I'm all for it.


Well, if it was about being percise, I don't think he was a very good example. His horse hitting poles and doing messy turns on the haunches/forehand doesn't scream "precise" to me, but that's just how I interpreted it. 

I've heard lots of people say similar things about WD and CD that anything western should be done with the mindset that it should be beneficial to cattle work and what not. Never in a million years have I ever ridden my horse with that idea/mindset. What about aiming to display the obedience, athleticism, and good training of your horse that goes into high level dressage manuvers? Is that unnecissary because it does't relate to cow work and the only atheletic manuvers shown by a western horse should be that that is beneifical for ranch work? Maybe that's how some people view western, but if that is your opinion I don't know why you might think barrel racing or a lot of the gymkana sports would be any more beneficial to ranchwork than dressage would be 

I hope you understand what I'm talking about and I don't seem snarky XD I love the conversation we have going right now


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

"Cowboy Dressage".... Makes me laugh. Theres no such thing. Why don't they stick to "people doing a mediocre trail course in a western saddle".. There's nothing cowboy about this.. I never saw at cow and any of these things... And the "buckaroo" with his taps.. :rofl:


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## COWCHICK77

I thought you liked Jeff Sanders?


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## Wanstrom Horses

Is that Jeff Sanders? Cuz if it is, just lost all respect


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## COWCHICK77

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Is that Jeff Sanders? Cuz if it is, just lost all respect


 Bah hahaha! Yep, I believe it is.


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## deserthorsewoman

It is.....and I seriously think he tried, just for fun( or better, I hope;-))

Opal, I enjoy the discussion, too. 
But, for what you want to do, I would suggest you'll check on Working Equitation. Even tho it says "working" and has a cow working part, it is way more along your line than anything else


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## Wanstrom Horses

Yeah, I've seen working equitation, it's pretty good. At least there are cows. "cowboy" typically has something to do with cows, but this is like "pole & cone boy" dressage. Welp Cowchick, after that comical video, no longer like Jeff..


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## deserthorsewoman

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxo1LL8xZow&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Working Equitation dressage test


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## Opal

@Wanstrom
Well, I personally don't think that's a good reason to suddenly dislike anyone, but okay...

@Desert
I've never seen/heard of working equitation. Do you know if they have it in the Morgan breed or if it's a AQHA thing? My horse is about as far from cowy as they get western XD I'm not sure he'd do so hot if there was a cow part XD


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## deserthorsewoman

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMpr70OvlWY&feature=youtube_gdata_player

And here all the info


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## deserthorsewoman

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5895K-Xjupk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

And this, just because it is so amazing;-)


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## Wanstrom Horses

Opal. I've been mulling over whether or not I like this guy or not for awhile. I think he's a decent horseman and has a good seat, but his buckaroo garb at an event like this kinda makes me mad. Seems like everyone, whether they have seen a cow in their entire life can be a buckaroo.. And Cowchick has been trying to convince me of this in another thread. I finally agree.


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## deserthorsewoman

Opal said:


> @Wanstrom
> Well, I personally don't think that's a good reason to suddenly dislike anyone, but okay...
> 
> @Desert
> I've never seen/heard of working equitation. Do you know if they have it in the Morgan breed or if it's a AQHA thing? My horse is about as far from cowy as they get western XD I'm not sure he'd do so hot if there was a cow part XD


it's breed-independent. The second video has contact info. And I think, you're at the right place there with your Morgan


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## Opal

@Desert
That's really beautiful, actually. I'd love to look into that. It seems a lot more...organized? Than WD. It's hard to do other disciplines though when your trainers were both co-founders for the WDAA and help to write a lot of the very tests you show. Also, my mom is a "strict non-english person" and doesn't ever support me when I show interest in english disciplines, so if I had more of a say in what I did (yes, sad, I know :/) I'd be doing english dressage probably. Since my mom doesn't support me in that venture though, WD is a good compromise. Still, I'd like to look into working equitation in-breed.


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## deserthorsewoman

Like I said, second video has contact info. 
And who knows, if you really look into it, find some interesting footage and show your mom....she might see the beauty in it also;-)


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## COWCHICK77

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Opal. I've been mulling over whether or not I like this guy or not for awhile. I think he's a decent horseman and has a good seat, but his buckaroo garb at an event like this kinda makes me mad. Seems like everyone, whether they have seen a cow in their entire life can be a buckaroo.. And Cowchick has been trying to convince me of this in another thread. I finally agree.


It wasn't you I was worried about! LOL! It is was someone else that just can't grasp the concept


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## jaydee

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Is that Jeff Sanders? Cuz if it is, just lost all respect


 Honestly I actually admire someone who's willing to give something a go to try to encourage other people to do something that involves getting on a horse and going out there. 
The guy seems to have tours set for all over the world so he's making money and advertising the Vaquero image. I doubt he cares much about what he looks like!!
So he didnt make a great job of it, so he looked a bit over the top in his dress style but at least he tried which is a lot more than most people seem to want to do
Modern day dressage wouldnt exist at all if the old haute ecole people had things their way and they still sneer at it now. Same as they did when they evolved the modern day showjumping style from the old hunting seat
Some tolerance for what other people want to do with their horses doesnt hurt anyone


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## longride

On another forum it was pointed out by someone who was at the CD event that Jeff had brought a young horse, no one had ever ridden the test before, including him, his mare had never done any type of trail or dressage test, and it was just a ride through to see how the test would flow. Jeff has several videos of his horses working at brandings and at Californio events. The mare would probably have been much less confused with a cow in the ring.


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## deserthorsewoman

longride said:


> On another forum it was pointed out by someone who was at the CD event that Jeff had brought a young horse, no one had ever ridden the test before, including him, his mare had never done any type of trail or dressage test, and it was just a ride through to see how the test would flow. Jeff has several videos of his horses working at brandings and at Californio events. The mare would probably have been much less confused with a cow in the ring.


So I was right.....


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## Wanstrom Horses

Jeff is an ex team roper, not an ex cowboy. There's a huge difference between the two. It's almost a mockery of the true vaquero. People think they can buy a wade saddle, some armitas, and a flat top hat, they can be a vaquero. Jeff is an alright horseman, but his buckaroo garb kinda irks me.. It's easy to fill an image when a camera is on you, but to be out there 24/7 and make a living for yourself and your family is a completely different story..


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## Opal

I don't think Jeff was trying to impress anybody or come across as a "True Vaquero" or what not. He was just dressing up the part. When people show western, they wear chaps and a cowboy hat, but nobody is trying to to pull off as an actual cowboy in say...a western pleasure class. What if he just thought it would be fun to dress the part? Since he's demonstrating skills that Vaqueros like in a horse, it might just be fun to look the part too. Personally, I'd rather see someone in garb like that than blue jeans, personally XD

@Deserthorsewoman
You were right XD


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## Wanstrom Horses

I think his garb is just posing as a true vaquero. That's what irks me. It's like people wearing spurs to Walmart... I consider myself a bridle horse person and a true cowgirl, not to brag or nothing, but since I was 18, I've been both day and night working on different ranches. And when I'm not working, your lucky to see me in anything but house slippers because my feet have been broke so many times... Looking the part and being the part are two totally different things..


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## longride

Yup. I was put off by this test too when I first saw it. Coming from a hunter/eventer background even my greenest babies would walk straight over a pole. Beyond that it bothered me that the poles interrupted the stride of the horse. The triples were set the same distance for the walk and the jog, which is very restrictive and goes against the call for "natural" gaits. Admittedly it's fair to test adjustability, just goes against the grain for me for it to be that extreme in what appears otherwise to be a very low level test.


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## Opal

@Longride
I definitely see your point. I didn't like the video much either for reasons I explained a page back or so, so I don't have much else to say on the matter besides the fact that I didn't find the garb THAT distracting. I think that's minimal compared to how he's riding. Now if the garb was AFFECTING his riding, that's a different thing, but personally I could care less what someone is wearing as long as they are a good rider and their horse is doing everything nicely/correctly. 

@Wanstrom
I wear spurs into wal-mart sometimes  More because I do the most errands on the way to/from the barn and I'll still have my jods, boots and spurs on as opposed to thinking they look cowboy-ish or for "style". They're just regular iron, english spurs though, nothing that makes you sound like you're walking into town at high-noon and you stroll through wal-mart XD


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## GotaDunQH

In response to Desert on my post about AQHA trail and the previous video posted, here's a vid of the 3rd place Amateur at the 2012 AQHA World Show:





 
Big difference in the ease and flow on THIS vid over the one that was posted.


----------



## boots

Opal said:


> I don't think Jeff was trying to impress anybody or come across as a "True Vaquero" or what not. He was just dressing up the part. When people show western, they wear chaps and a cowboy hat, but nobody is trying to to pull off as an actual cowboy in say...a western pleasure class. What if he just thought it would be fun to dress the part? Since he's demonstrating skills that Vaqueros like in a horse, it might just be fun to look the part too. Personally, I'd rather see someone in garb like that than blue jeans, personally XD
> 
> @Deserthorsewoman
> You were right XD


I'm fairly certain that Sanders cares very much about how he looks, since that is what draws unsophisticated folks to his clinics.

I don't see anything functional about the examples of that riding (the dressage stuff in western gear). And western IS a functional discipline. Whether on the ranch or traveling across country on trails. 

I wouldn't use a western curb like those folks do unless maybe my horse was locoed and I chose to stick with him rather than walk home packing my tack!


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## Opal

@Gotadun
Yeah, you can see the difference in how the horse moves himself and carries himself over the poles. No hesitation either.

I just wish he's pick up his feet a LITTLE more at the canter. I know AQHA gaits are supposed to be like that, but he looks like he's limping, not loping and it just kind seems weird. I definitely thinkg AQHA gaits should be slower than other breeds, but I feel like they've taken it to the extreme where the horses are lacking the ability to move out and really pick themselves up. I guess that's also just what happens to my opinion when I ride the upitty, big-moving Morgans XD


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## Opal

boots said:


> I'm fairly certain that Sanders cares very much about how he looks, since that is what draws unsophisticated folks to his clinics.
> 
> I don't see anything functional about the examples of that riding (the dressage stuff in western gear). And western IS a functional discipline. Whether on the ranch or traveling across country on trails.
> 
> I wouldn't use a western curb like those folks do unless maybe my horse was locoed and I chose to stick with him rather than walk home packing my tack!


I guess you might not consider me very functional then, because I don't do trail or ranch work, nor do I train/ride my horses with that in mind. I like to train my horses with athleticism and obedience in mind, not ranch or trail functionality. Of course, that's just me. 

Like I said a while back, if you believe that Western disciplines should be "functional" for ranch, cow, and trail work, then I'd go talk to some barrel racers or gymkana people too, because as far as I'm concerned barrel racing benefits ranch work no more than dressage does. I'd rather have a horse trained with dressage concepts and ideals in mind as opposed one trained to barrel race or what not.

I personally divide western into three catagories: Ranch, Rodeo, and Show. Ranch disciplines might be cutting and reining. Rodeo disciplines might be barrel racing and gymkana. Show might be Western Pleasure and Western dressage. That's just how I see it though. A ranch horse, in my opinion, definitely needs to be able to move out more than a western pleasure horse, thus I don't think it fair to lump them into the same catagories.


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## deserthorsewoman

GotaDunQH said:


> In response to Desert on my post about AQHA trail and the previous video posted, here's a vid of the 3rd place Amateur at the 2012 AQHA World Show:
> 
> 2012 AQHA World Show Winners - YouTube
> 
> Big difference in the ease and flow on THIS vid over the one that was posted.


I don't think it is quite fair to compare a world show winner trail horse with a guy who's riding a young horse first time indoors over a new obstacle course. 
I do agree his outfit could have been a bit more "neutral" for that occasion. 
I definitely will be looking for videos of him riding with classical masters....that should show how much he knows


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## COWCHICK77

deserthorsewoman said:


> I don't think it is quite fair to compare a world show winner trail horse with a guy who's riding a young horse first time indoors over a new obstacle course.
> I do agree his outfit could have been a bit more "neutral" for that occasion.
> I definitely will be looking for videos of him riding with classical masters....that should show how much he knows


Well according to another poster on this forum that is why he travels to Europe, to do just that. I am _no _judge of Dressage by any means so I am curious what you folks that are familiar with dressage say about him and how he might compare to the Bruce Sandifer pics earlier in the thread.


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## Wanstrom Horses

Please keep this is mind. I'm a total NimWhit when it comes to English riding, ive never even sat in an English saddle. and I know nothing about dressage. But how is Jeff Sanders riding even close to traditional dressage? Based off the videos I've watched, cowboy dressage looks like a 4H trail course...


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## deserthorsewoman

Let's wait if jaydee has some footage of that


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## Tessa7707

Opal said:


> I guess you might not consider me very functional then, because I don't do trail or ranch work, nor do I train/ride my horses with that in mind. I like to train my horses with athleticism and obedience in mind, not ranch or trail functionality. Of course, that's just me.
> 
> Like I said a while back, if you believe that Western disciplines should be "functional" for ranch, cow, and trail work, then I'd go talk to some barrel racers or gymkana people too, because as far as I'm concerned barrel racing benefits ranch work no more than dressage does. I'd rather have a horse trained with dressage concepts and ideals in mind as opposed one trained to barrel race or what not.
> 
> I personally divide western into three catagories: Ranch, Rodeo, and Show. Ranch disciplines might be cutting and reining. Rodeo disciplines might be barrel racing and gymkana. Show might be Western Pleasure and Western dressage. That's just how I see it though. A ranch horse, in my opinion, definitely needs to be able to move out more than a western pleasure horse, thus I don't think it fair to lump them into the same catagories.


Interesting. I'd agree with those 3 categories, so where would you put western dressage?


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## Opal

> Originally Posted by Opal
> I guess you might not consider me very functional then, because I don't do trail or ranch work, nor do I train/ride my horses with that in mind. I like to train my horses with athleticism and obedience in mind, not ranch or trail functionality. Of course, that's just me.
> 
> Like I said a while back, if you believe that Western disciplines should be "functional" for ranch, cow, and trail work, then I'd go talk to some barrel racers or gymkana people too, because as far as I'm concerned barrel racing benefits ranch work no more than dressage does. I'd rather have a horse trained with dressage concepts and ideals in mind as opposed one trained to barrel race or what not.
> 
> I personally divide western into three catagories: Ranch, Rodeo, and Show. Ranch disciplines might be cutting and reining. Rodeo disciplines might be barrel racing and gymkana. Show might be Western Pleasure and *Western dressage.* That's just how I see it though. A ranch horse, in my opinion, definitely needs to be able to move out more than a western pleasure horse, thus I don't think it fair to lump them into the same catagories.


 I put it under the "Show" catagory.


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## Tessa7707

Fail, sorry.


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## GotaDunQH

Opal said:


> @Gotadun
> Yeah, you can see the difference in how the horse moves himself and carries himself over the poles. No hesitation either.
> 
> I just wish he's pick up his feet a LITTLE more at the canter. I know AQHA gaits are supposed to be like that, but he looks like he's limping, not loping and it just kind seems weird. I definitely thinkg AQHA gaits should be slower than other breeds, but I feel like they've taken it to the extreme where the horses are lacking the ability to move out and really pick themselves up. I guess that's also just what happens to my opinion when I ride the upitty, big-moving Morgans XD


See, here's the diffence between the QH gaits and the Morgan gaits and it starts with their conformation....QH's ae built to go flat kneed where Morgans aren't built with straighter angles and more knees. QH's also travel more slow legged....which is why the lope looks strange to people because those legs are moving so slow. It's like if you took a vid of a horse cantering....then put in in slow-motion mode. It takes a fit and talented horse to do that.


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## GotaDunQH

deserthorsewoman said:


> I* don't think it is quite fair to compare a world show winner trail horse with a guy who's riding a young horse first time indoors over a new obstacle course*.
> I do agree his outfit could have been a bit more "neutral" for that occasion.
> I definitely will be looking for videos of him riding with classical masters....that should show how much he knows


Here's a friend of mine's horse, showing Green Trail for the very first time. Still a big difference:


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## deserthorsewoman

Of course it's a difference. Without wanting to defend anybody, since that's not what this is all about, but I still think, knowing the circumstances now, he did a relatively decent job. I guess if he wanted to show AQHA trail, he would have trained his horse for that. He trained his horse in a very "special" way, for every day work, which includes mastering obstacles, which are not indoors, have audience nor are white and pretty. Taking this into consideration, the young horse did and handled quite well. I've seen worse riders who claim to be much more than he does. Again, not to defend anybody or anything. Just trying to be fair.
I don't even think he's doing much of a disservice to Californios, at least he's trying to keep the tradition alive and make it known to a greater audience. I seriously doubt any of the Europeans who went to one of his clinics would come to the west here and try to snatch a job cowboying.
I'd still like to see what he does with the classical method.......

Since the original thread is about western or cowboy dressage, my opinion to it. If it is something which gets people to learn more, great. If it gets people to go compete who wouldn't in breed shows, great. Do we need yet another style of riding? No. Is it something new? No.
My 0.02$


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## Opal

@Gotadun
Yeah, I'm aware that there is a big difference. Still, it's not like their conformation forces them to canter that way. Would it really hurt so much to pick up the speed just a tad so they aren't dragging their feet through the dirt? I don't think it's "wrong" or "incorrect", I just think they've taken AQHA gaits to the extreme.

I actually prefer the gaits that your friend dislayed over the ones the champion displayed 

@Tessa
No problem XD Do you agree with that placement?


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## longride

There are two aspects to good dressage work. The more important one to understand as a horseman is that the work has nothing to do with competition. It is a system of muscle development. It uses the weight of the horse as the resistance to build strength, and it's goal is to so condition the horse that it can carry weight equally on both sides of its body and have complete balance and freedom of movement. Those goals are not breed specific and can be applied to any of the three categories Opal names. 

Dressage as a competition or discipline is also not breed specific. QHs have gone up the levels to Grand Prix and succeeded as have many other breeds. It does however, like all athletic endeavors, reward natural athletic ability.


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## jaydee

I'm definitely not going to guillotine anyone for what they wear (and I think the outfit was more connected to the fact that he's done a Garrocha demo on the same day) and same goes for hurling critique at anyone doing something for the first time on a green horse because I spent most of my horse working career doing that and no matter how much work you put in at home they can always mess up the first few times out. I defy anyone who's actually spent a lot of years around young horses to say otherwise
Whether anyone likes it or not the WD/CD competitions are going to appeal to lots of people - it may not be entirely new but it is appearing under a more accessible umbrella thats going to be open to all breeds and all riders in many parts of the world - the majority of who will never see real cattle/ranch work
The Light Handshorsemanship group (sponsored by Spalding Labs) are already putting their weight behind it - names like Jon Ensign, Lester Buckley, Jack Brainard, Sheila Varian (arabians) Rick lamb, Robert Miller, Richard Winters. 
Theres one very good reason why they are supporting it too - its all about *$'s* If you have any interest in breeding horses, breaking horses, training horses, selling horses that might possibly find another niche in the competition world then you would be committing financial suicide to not get involved in anything that has the potential to open up a new market place - same goes for all the tack and clothing attached to it and the money made from clinics and shows.
If you're in the job of making money out of horses you cant afford to have a negativite attitude about anything. I would support painting horses in blue and white spots if I thought I could profit out of it
This is a mare that was for sale on the Modern Vaquero website a few years back that they were schooling for dressage after a previous career as a brood mare, reining horses & ranch horse. I did a lot of scribing for dressage judges in the past and find faults as you like but she would not disgrace herself in any UK Pony Club dressage test at the basic level which is where most ponies start out
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzUOvu_f_IM


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## deserthorsewoman

jaydee said:


> I'm definitely not going to guillotine anyone for what they wear (and I think the outfit was more connected to the fact that he's done a Garrocha demo on the same day) and same goes for hurling critique at anyone doing something for the first time on a green horse because I spent most of my horse working career doing that and no matter how much work you put in at home they can always mess up the first few times out. I defy anyone who's actually spent a lot of years around young horses to say otherwise
> Whether anyone likes it or not the WD/CD competitions are going to appeal to lots of people - it may not be entirely new but it is appearing under a more accessible umbrella thats going to be open to all breeds and all riders in many parts of the world - the majority of who will never see real cattle/ranch work
> The Light Handshorsemanship group (sponsored by Spalding Labs) are already putting their weight behind it - names like Jon Ensign, Lester Buckley, Jack Brainard, Sheila Varian (arabians) Rick lamb, Robert Miller, Richard Winters.
> Theres one very good reason why they are supporting it too - its all about *$'s* If you have any interest in breeding horses, breaking horses, training horses, selling horses that might possibly find another niche in the competition world then you would be committing financial suicide to not get involved in anything that has the potential to open up a new market place - same goes for all the tack and clothing attached to it and the money made from clinics and shows.
> If you're in the job of making money out of horses you cant afford to have a negativite attitude about anything. I would support painting horses in blue and white spots if I thought I could profit out of it
> This is a mare that was for sale on the Modern Vaquero website a few years back that they were schooling for dressage after a previous career as a brood mare, reining horses & ranch horse. I did a lot of scribing for dressage judges in the past and find faults as you like but she would not disgrace herself in any UK Pony Club dressage test at the basic level which is where most ponies start out
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzUOvu_f_IM


I absolutely agree with your reasoning. Not that I think "we" need it but the current horsemarket needs all the help it can get. And, as I said, if it helps people to open their minds I'm all for it. 
The only thing I personally would have a problem with is judging it like a modern dressage competition. Classical dressage, yeah, but not today's. It will lose the lightness.
Unfortunately the video is not available for mobile:-(


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## jaydee

deserthorsewoman said:


> I absolutely agree with your reasoning. Not that I think "we" need it but the current horsemarket needs all the help it can get. And, as I said, if it helps people to open their minds I'm all for it.
> The only thing I personally would have a problem with is judging it like a modern dressage competition. Classical dressage, yeah, but not today's. It will lose the lightness.
> Unfortunately the video is not available for mobile:-(


 The pony on the Modern Vaquero youtube site that I've linked too is working at 'modern dressage' - Ok not going to top level but them how many actually do compete or can afford to compete to that standard. Every week the UK's top horse mags (Horse & Hound) have lages of results and photos of people competing at novice & prelim level on all shapes and sizes of horses and ponies - it encourages everyone to get into the game
The Cowboy Dressage that these people are mostly getting into is not meant to be judged as european dressage at all - which is why they broke away I think.
I dont know much about 'bridle horses' & the Vaquero style at all but other than ranch/cattle work and displays is there actually a competition to show them off and test their skills? From what I read on some of their websites they seem to see CD as a showplace for it.
This is a statement from Sheila Valerians website
A lot of people said that Le Trec wouldnt catch on in the UK and yet it keeps growing in popularity because it fills a gap


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## GotaDunQH

See, from my opinion....WD and CD is nothing like Dressage. From the vids posted...it's almost insulting to put the term "dressage" on it. It's just some "catchy" name a few pioneers have put on it to draw in western people, and I find a HUGE disservice to Dressage with that...and I'm a western person!!!! (I should say I do it all....Dressage, Western and Hunt Seat but that's not the point.) Someone said we don't "need" another discipline and I have to agree like this. Look....Dressage has a VERY defined term and to use it in combination with what I have seen here...is quite frankly.....a big joke. Call it something else please.


----------



## jaydee

GotaDunQH said:


> See, from my opinion....WD and CD is nothing like Dressage. From the vids posted...it's almost insulting to put the term "dressage" on it. It's just some "catchy" name a few pioneers have put on it to draw in western people, and I find a HUGE disservice to Dressage with that...and I'm a western person!!!! (I should say I do it all....Dressage, Western and Hunt Seat but that's not the point.) Someone said we don't "need" another discipline and I have to agree like this. Look....Dressage has a VERY defined term and to use it in combination with what I have seen here...is quite frankly.....a big joke. Call it something else please.


 I think thats because you only see dressage in the context of the modern european dressage competitions whereas in Europe its still seen as 'training' which is what it originally was - training tests for what was the new style of riding that evolved from the Haute ecole movement and that was a test of movements that were once used in battle - the Haute Ecole was pretty much only for the military establishments of the day.
There have been dressage tests for driving horses for a long time and now there are dressage tests for gaited horses.
I'm a british rider who's foundation in riding is based on the modern dressage style because thats how most British riders are taught - does not mean you have to ride with long stirrups and a dressage saddle its just the basic technique and I dont have a problem with anyone using the word 'dressage'


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## deserthorsewoman

jaydee said:


> I think thats because you only see dressage in the context of the modern european dressage competitions whereas in Europe its still seen as 'training' which is what it originally was - training tests for what was the new style of riding that evolved from the Haute ecole movement and that was a test of movements that were once used in battle - the Haute Ecole was pretty much only for the military establishments of the day.
> There have been dressage tests for driving horses for a long time and now there are dressage tests for gaited horses.
> I'm a british rider who's foundation in riding is based on the modern dressage style because thats how most British riders are taught - does not mean you have to ride with long stirrups and a dressage saddle its just the basic technique and I dont have a problem with anyone using the word 'dressage'


Exactly. We Europeans grow up with "flatwork", which is the general schooling, the base for everything, in America called "dressage". For us it's not. It's basic riding. We all do shoulder in's, leg yields, half halts etc as daily work. Even jumpers are schooled like that. Competitions are dressage competitions, different levels, but are not special, it's just proof of what you learned. It's hard to explain. Maybe because it's so normal for us. This is why I don't understand all the craze about dressage here;-)
I bet you guys have seen a youtube clip of western vs English, a dressage rider and a reiner switch horses. Both are German. And if you watch the reiner riding the dressage horse....he's looking a lot better on it and has way less trouble than the dressage rider on the QH. This is due to the basic dressage training we receive in lessons. 
Now if that would happen in general here, there wouldn't be so much controversy about WD


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## Tessa7707

Opal said:


> @Gotadun
> Yeah, I'm aware that there is a big difference. Still, it's not like their conformation forces them to canter that way. Would it really hurt so much to pick up the speed just a tad so they aren't dragging their feet through the dirt? I don't think it's "wrong" or "incorrect", I just think they've taken AQHA gaits to the extreme.
> 
> I actually prefer the gaits that your friend dislayed over the ones the champion displayed
> 
> @Tessa
> No problem XD Do you agree with that placement?


Haha, yeah. I've never heard them categorized like that. Yeah I think western dressage would fall under the show category.


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## COWCHICK77

Originally that was why the National Reined Cow Horse Association was started, to showcase the Bridlehorse and the process. The whole idea was to show the same horse every year through the process...first year in the snaffle and/or hackamore, next time in the two-rein and final year in the bridle. But they seem to have evolved away from that idea unfortunately. 

Here in NV most the ranch rodeos have a stock horse class for showing your horse in a snaffle, hackamore, two-rein and bridle and the fair horse shows are geared to it as well, even for the kids.( they also have the usually 4H, FFA, and jackpot barrel racing and team roping) I believe Bruce Sandifer has started the Californio Bridlehorse Assoc. - Mission 

Perhaps Cowboy Dressage fits in for those who do not have access to ranch rodeos and stock/ranch horse shows. However that video posted earlier was in Oregon, I think Klamath Falls?, no lack of stock horse shows or ranch rodeos around there.
Perhaps I am missing the appeal...just because I don't want to do it doesn't mean others won't! LOL!

As for Wanstroms tapedero comment, I will back her on that one. No one up here wears tapederos in the summer and hardly in the winter(unless it is really cold or there is snow on the brush). But he(Jeff Sanders) didn't wear them just for that show, pretty much any video of him no matter the time of year he is sporting tapederos, a wool vest and a wild rag. It doesn't get that cold in Fallon in the summer(the banana belt of NV, they grow melons! LOL) Most guys that are actually handy around here don't feel the need to get that dressed up. Last weekend was Winnemucca Ranch Hand Rodeo, no one there, I seen, that makes nice bridle horses and cowboys well wore anything fancy whether they were entered or not. Most likely you see a hat, a jacket of some sort over a long sleeved shirt and plain boots, maybe Brogans, or mens dress shoes. And I do not recall seeing one set of tapederos.(although I spent my time in the beer garden so I may have missed them..LOL)


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## jaydee

You will find that a lot of life passes you by when you spend time in beer gardens!!!!
I think that the WD will take on a more dressage for western riders slant with higher expectations of finesse and the CD will follow the more practical western riding style for people who may never see a ranch or cattle for real but still want to get a feel for what its all about in terms of the training a horse needs
I honestly dont care what people wear (as long as they cover the vital parts for the sake of decency!!!) and I wouldnt judge anyone by how they dress for the same reason
I'm not even a western rider but if people want to do it and it makes money for the horse world I'll encourage it
A horse that can win ribbons in something will always sell for more money than one that doesnt so the more venues for that the better!!!!


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## SouthernTrails

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> *Western Dressage Chapter Added to Rule Book
> *
> The USEF Board of Directors voted to add a new discipline to the Rule Book and in the process welcomed a new Recognized Affiliate. Effective December 1, 2013, Western Dressage will be removed from the Morgan chapter of the USEF Rule Book *and become an independent discipline with it's own chapter*. With that change the Western Dressage Association of America (WDAA) will become the USEF Recognized Affiliate for Western Dressage.
> 
> In a press release the WDAA stated "The Western Dressage Association of America is honored to be the USEF Recognized Affiliate for the exciting new discipline of western dressage. WDAA is excited to bring its focus and mission of "Honoring the Horse" to the USEF's Horse Welfare Initiative. WDAA will work closely with USEF coordinating rule processes and other affiliate functions."


  www.westerndressageassociation.org/


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