# How do you feel about horse meat?



## Marlea Warlea

I understand that there is an over population of horses compared to the amount of people that want them, but in my opinion, there's more people on the Earth then there should be, but that doesn't mean we should go around killing everyone does it? 
I hate it because it's not like they just kill the horses, which would be bad enough, they get tortured, and then killed. They are shot, zapped, whipped and so many more things I can't bring myself to type. 

There are three big reasons why they are slaughtered. 

1. Horse meat: A lot of people eat this. Which is really stupid because appparently, killing cows and sheep and various other animals aren't enough for some people. 

2. A horse is "crazy": I'm so sick of hearing this! If someone doesn't have the brains to handle a horse, it's labeled as hopeless horse and shipped off to slaughter, when in truth, young kids say that want a pony so the parents get them whatever they want and when something bad happens due to their ignorance the horse is blamed. 

3. A horse just isn't good enough: If a horse has "bad conformation" or isn't the right color, or even has a wrong facial marking, most of them get slaughtered because a lot of people want purebred TBs or some kind of fancy breed and so the others get tossed to the side. Now please don't get me wrong, I'm not saying TBs are bad or that people having preferences is bad, I'm just saying that some people can be nasty about it and so a lot of horses are killed.

Therefore I am completley against it.


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## sommsama09

I completly agree, and i HATE what happens to PMU's and their foals.


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## SarahAnn

My issue is not with horse meat. If you want to raise horses for meat that's one thing. But killing your pets, friends, family or whatever a horse is to you (my horses are a part of my family) because you got bored or you didn't train it properly or you grew out of it- now that's just wrong. And on top of that somewhere in the world people are eating your PET!? No way. Plus there are so many products that people use on horses that are not suitable for animals that are intended to be meat. But I am sure no one asks "hey did you use MTG on your horse?" Before they slaughter it and let people eat the meat. So I am willing to bet that a good percentage of horse meat is contaminated.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Reiterin

It's the same as cow meat or any other meat. All of which I'm against.


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## SarahAnn

Reiterin said:


> It's the same as cow meat or any other meat. All of which I'm against.


Because of your love for animals? Or health reasons? I'm just curious. I am not a vegetarian, but my mom is vegan and my dad is vegetarian. So I understand not eating meat. I only eat local meat, as I like to know where my meat comes from and that the animals have some quality of life before they become a meal.


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## caseymyhorserocks

No way.


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## Duren

I dont think I could bring myself to do it. I eat other meat though. I think most of us (including myself) personalize horses to where thought of eating them is horrible, while the same people might show FFA cows or pigs that are sold for consumption.


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## erino49

Oooh! This is going to be a good thread! I cannot believe more people haven't posted yet! 

Personally, the thought of eating horse meat disgusts me. That being said, if I was starving due to some sort of zombie apocalypse, who knows what I would eat! Also, I understand there are many cultures/people out there who think my love of Wendy's cheeseburgers is gross, so I am a hypocrite.


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## demonwolfmoon

I don't really like meat. I find that I am never really hungry enough to cause something to die. Which is to say, something dies for me every time I open that plastic wrapped chicken from the grocery store, I just don't have to know what it looked like...with the life shining out of it's eyes. We are so far removed from our food...but I digress.

I do eat meat, but I try to do it a lot less often than I did. I don't see the difference between horse and cow. Is the cow somehow an inferior animal to the horse? Really? It all depends on your cultural values. Here we value horse...so to a lot of people who would otherwise chow down, horse is considered an abomination. We have the same feelings generally for cats and dogs, which are eaten in some Asian countries. We are no better than them, but* ethnocentrism* tells us otherwise. 

As I stated in the last horse thread...if I was starving, I'd eat horse. If I wasn't starving, I might try it, but it wouldn't be my first menu option, and it's likely I wouldn't eat it. But then again...clearly I'm not a big meat eater.


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## demonwolfmoon

erino49 said:


> Personally, the thought of eating horse meat disgusts me. That being said, if I was starving due to some sort of zombie apocalypse, who knows what I would eat!


You eat what you have to to survive. Donner party, anyone?


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## bubba13

SarahAnn said:


> My issue is not with horse meat. If you want to raise horses for meat that's one thing. But killing your pets, friends, family or whatever a horse is to you (my horses are a part of my family) because you got bored or you didn't train it properly or you grew out of it- now that's just wrong. And on top of that somewhere in the world people are eating your PET!?


A horse doesn't know or care whether it's a pet. Makes no difference to the animal. Same with a pet steer versus a range-raised, semi-wild steer. Same thing. Either slaughter of horses and cattle is right, or it is wrong--no exceptions.



> Plus there are so many products that people use on horses that are not suitable for animals that are intended to be meat. But I am sure no one asks "hey did you use MTG on your horse?" Before they slaughter it and let people eat the meat. So I am willing to bet that a good percentage of horse meat is contaminated.


This is a concern, BUT, have you ever heard of anyone dying or becoming ill from eating horse meat? No?  I thought not. "Contaminated" is a relative term. Companies just put the _do not use on animals intended for human consumption_ label on things to protect their own asses. Most of those things are either quickly removed from the body or are honestly safe for people to eat. Trust me, we're exposed to far more toxic compounds on a daily basis....



erino49 said:


> Oooh! This is going to be a good thread! I cannot believe more people haven't posted yet!




I'll tell you why they haven't. Just search "horse slaughter" on this forum, or any other, and see how many hits you get. I would have refrained from beating this long-dead and badly-decayed horse myself, but I had to address the above statetments. Few things bother me more than an unsound argument....other than perhaps an unsound horse. :shock:



demonwolfmoon said:


> Donner party, anyone?


Ha ha ha ha ha! :rofl:


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## Marlea Warlea

Yea, I personally hate the thought of eatig ANY meat. Animals mean more to me then people.


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## demonwolfmoon

Marlea Warlea said:


> Yea, I personally hate the thought of eatig ANY meat. Animals mean more to me then people.


yeah...that doesn't seem like a healthy attitude. I hope that you form some bonds with humanity. Trust me, I'm not the most social of critters, but.....


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## Marlea Warlea

Yes yes I know but I can't help it. People confuse the hell outta me and when I get confused watch out! 
I have something called Apsergers Syndrome, look it up


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## HorseLovinLady

No way would I ever eat horse meat!! Also to me horses are not for meat or eating, they're for us humans to use in other ways.


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## demonwolfmoon

Just a thought...
"
*Ethnocentrism*

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
*Ethnocentrism* *is the tendency to believe that one's ethnic or cultural group is centrally important, and that all other groups are measured in relation to one's own.* The ethnocentric individual will judge other groups relative to his or her own particular ethnic group or culture, especially with concern to language, behavior, customs, and religion. These ethnic distinctions and sub-divisions serve to define each ethnicity's unique cultural identity.[1]"


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## SarahAnn

bubba13 said:


> A horse doesn't know or care whether it's a pet. Makes no difference to the animal. Same with a pet steer versus a range-raised, semi-wild steer. Same thing. Either slaughter of horses and cattle is right, or it is wrong--no exceptions.


No. This is a matter of opinion. So IMHO its completely different to eat a pet then it is to eat an animal that has been purely raised as a meat animal. Growing up my family raised pigs, turkeys, and cows for meat. We did not have close relationships with them, we did not name them, they were not our "friends." We made sure they had a decent quality of life while they were living and fed them. That was it. That is completely different then ANY animal that is a pet, whether it be a steer or a horse or a cat. Whom you have a close relationship with, you love, you name, you spend time with. Completely different. 

If people want to eat horse, then so be it. But I PERSONALLY believe that there should be horse farms with the intention of raising these animals for meat. Do not love them and name them and ride them and then decide after a while that you don't have time anymore, and off to slaughter. I wouldn't do that to a pet cow, turkey, pig, OR horse. But again, that's just me. If you want to indulge on a nice piece of rump from your neighbors unwanted horse, well, good for you I guess. But I wouldn't do it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bubba13

That's all fine and good. But it's about YOU. YOU don't want to eat a pet cow, but you're fine with a range-bred cow with a number for a name? The cow does not know or care whether or not it's loved by a family. It has the same feelings, emotions, awareness, and so on, regardless of how it was raised. If anything, the process would be easier on a pet cow because it would trust people and thus be less frightened at the feedlot and slaughterhouse. This is the philosophy behind the super-expensive Japanese Kobe beef. The cattle are treated like royalty, and the meat quality is superior as a result.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobe_beef
http://www.askthemeatman.com/kobe_beef.htm

Personally, I'd rather the unwanted "pet" horses get slaughtered than breed a whole bunch of extras for the same use. Less overall death and suffering that way. Which brings me to my next, not-at-all-hypothetical point: Animal rights activists have made things way worse on laboratory research animal suffering. It used to be that vet schools and research facilities could get their "sacrifice" dogs from the pound....dogs that were going to be euthanized anyway. But PETA and related groups had a hissy fit about that, and insisted that the labs breed their own dogs. So now you have twice as many dogs dying, and the purpose-bred lab dogs never get to have a good point in their lives like hopefully the pound dogs did, once upon a time when they were free or living with a family....the purpose-bred research dogs spend their whole lives in a metal cage and then suffer and are killed, totally needlessly. Way to go, PETA.


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## Alwaysbehind

sommsama09 said:


> and i HATE what happens to PMU's and their foals.


You are behind the times if you are still on the 'poor PMU babies' bandwagon.

The mass production farms were closed down long ago. The farms that produce urine for the PMU industry now realize that a well bred foal is a good commodity to have.


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## Golden Horse

I'm glad you picked up on that one AB, most PMU mares have a grand life these days, and breeding for quality is encouraged, and being business men the 'farmers' can well see that having quality stock can yield you a second harvest.

As to the OP's question, I think it has been asked an answered may times, so I'll just say it's probably great with a little ketchup added.

A horse is a big herbivore, same as cow, sheep, deer, elk, bison, and I enjoy all of those so I don't suppose that horse would be a lot different


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## TaMMa89

I know that consumpting horse meat would be good choice to support here. I'm not all aware how things are nowadays since I haven't followed Finnish horse-related news or public voice for a while now but at least few years ago we had few commercial slaughterhouses which took also horses. Many times a horse which has humanely slaughtered here means one less horse to Eastern Europe slaughter transit which I've heard is a pretty inhumane choice to horse. It also probably means one less vagabond which goes from owner to owner which I think isn't very good choice either. Or one less sick horse. My view is that Finnish are pretty pro-slaughtering folk as to not needed horses and it isn't all uncommon that even healthy, good horses end up to to meat consumption if the owner hasn't time for them, especially if the horse don't find new home after some even very few efforts. If the owners make even these efforts. What I've gotten, we neither have that problem of too many horses and I've wondered if slaughtering and horse meat consumption is one of the factors that has affected on the thing. 

I still personally don't eat horse meat. I just personally (and that's just my very personal choice and feeling) don't feel good about it since I've closer relationship with horses than other animals and I'd feel a bit odd to spend time with a horse, brush it and have connection with it and then come home to eat one. Sure the horse doesn't recognize if it's meaningful to me or not but I do. I eat other meat tho but like some other people described here, I don't have that bond with these other animals even them aren't any inferior as animals. Plus I just don't like taste of horse meat.


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## demonwolfmoon

TaMMa89 said:


> Plus I just don't like taste of horse meat.


LOL this is actually a really important factor that a lot of people aren't thinking of. Not all meat tastes the same =P

I think that duck is tasty in my thai noodles....my husband tried duck, and picked it out of his meal. They are similar birds, and at least domestically, eat a similar diet. I also enjoy the taste of what little quail I can force myself to eat, whereas my husband is not impressed. But he'll eat chicken! I also know people that like cow or buffalo perfectly well, but can't stand the taste of venison. So the statement that both cows, horses and deer are quadrapedal herbivores, and thus probably enjoyable to consume doesn't work. =(

TBH I'm not sure I'd ENJOY eating horse. Isn't it usual to butcher food animals while they are fairly young so that they are not overly chewy or "gamey"? I'd eat it rather than starve, and I'll try just about anything once other than that, but....


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## Marlea Warlea

Horses do have feelings btw...


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## TaMMa89

^^Yes, they have basic physical/mental feelings and reactions like any more developed animal but at that point, the general view is that horses or other animals (excluding some rare occasions) don't have human-type self-consciousness or more developed human-like cognitive processes or feelings.


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## Marlea Warlea

Heres an example of HUMAN LIKE EMOTIONS:
My two horses (missy and moo) got onto the road, Missy got hit by a passing car and died. Moo saw the whole thing and she wouldn't eat or drink for a week. She stood by Missys grave every day for 3 months and liked it.


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## demonwolfmoon

Marlea Warlea said:


> Heres an example of HUMAN LIKE EMOTIONS:
> My two horses (missy and moo) got onto the road, Missy got hit by a passing car and died. Moo saw the whole thing and she wouldn't eat or drink for a week. She stood by Missys grave every day for 3 months and liked it.


Some animals do mourn. A chimp will carry its dead baby around for days. Elephants have similar tales, I believe.
But then again...the quail we sometimes raise feel as well. They feel fear, and anxiety...they feel satisfaction of some sort with a full feeder. They enforce the pecking order, but outside of fear, I'm not sure what they feel, or if their emotions can be equated with our emotions.

I can understand being against horse meat because you're personally against eating meat...but condemning it because it's horse, because you have allocated it as having more emotions than the cow you're willing to chow down on, that I don't really comprehend, it smacks of hypocrisy.

ETS: If your horse stopped by the other's grave, I doubt she "liked" it.


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## Marlea Warlea

Sorry i meant to say lick. Not like.
And I believe with all my heart animals have human feelings.


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## demonwolfmoon

Marlea Warlea said:


> Sorry i meant to say lick. Not like.
> And I believe with all my heart animals have human feelings.


Marlea Warlea, they do not...unless you have the understanding that human beings, **** sapiens, are animals too. 

We are primates. 

We humans have the conceit that we are somehow not animals due to our superior...something...ethics or religion perhaps. I will say that because of CULTURE we are different, because we have a culture that we orally pass on, and we have cultural expectations that affect our emotional well being. Animals do not have that, and outside of a few common things...well you cannot say that they feel emotion the way we do. What is similar? I would imagine that fear is. We all experience fear for our lives.

Anyway, I suggest that you take a Physical Anthropology class, maybe some upper level (college) biology. I think that would really help you. Right now, I think that despite other issues you've mentioned, that you are young and vulnerable and empathizing heavily with animals makes you feel better. I too feel like my life is much better for my relationship with animals...but I don't prefer them to (all) people, as you've stated before.

Some people, but not people in general. =P

ETS: I understand why you'd find horse distasteful if you find all animal flesh morally distasteful...it's a good reason to not want to eat it.


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## Marlea Warlea

You can believe what you want, and leave me entitled to my beliefs.
People confuse the hell out of me, and I havn't found any animal that I can't work out yet.


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## demonwolfmoon

Marlea Warlea said:


> You can believe what you want, and leave me entitled to my beliefs.
> People confuse the hell out of me, and I havn't found any animal that I can't work out yet.


When I was 18, I got a puppy from some lady selling them downtown.
She was pitbull, german shepherd mix.

My hs boyfriend and I worked on training her, we took her on walks, took her to the dog park, socialized her...
She tried to kill children.
Literally.
She would lunge on her leash and choke herself, growling and snapping at children, toddlers and even babies.
She ripped the ears off of my auntie's cocker spaniel before we gave her away to someone who lived in the country who needed a guard dog (and had no children nearby!). He put her on a low roof (there are one story short things with asphalt flat roofs) with her chain and stuff, and she ripped out the chain and jumped down to kill his other dog.

I got her when she was maybe eight weeks old, I socialized her, I cared for her...what would you have done? I know there are probably some rabid people out there who might beat up kids on sight, but I haven't met any.

I'd be interested to know how you'd "work out" that situation? I lived maybe two miles from the downtown of a major city, and even if I avoided children, they walk by, or get within eyeshot of her, and she'd try to kill. It took two of us to hold her back. Solution?

ETS: I knew a girl in the Forensic Anthropology major of my department who had Aspbergers (sp?). She told me that she was having trouble because she felt like the department was upset with having to cater to her disability...she let it beat her, no, she let THEM beat her, and she no longer goes to my school. Don't let these things mess with you any more than you have to.


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## Marlea Warlea

piballs are known to be unkind dogs. I wouldn't risk my life with a breeed of dog that was known for killing.


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## demonwolfmoon

Marlea Warlea said:


> piballs are known to be unkind dogs.


This can be true...but it isn't the rule.

Pitbulls can be the sweetest, kindest most loyal dogs that will risk their lives for you. They are big babies. But like horses, you need to know what you have, and how to take care of it. I've had pitbulls...what was wrong with her was different? It was like her brain was broken. =(


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## Marlea Warlea

True, don't get me wrong I'm not saying all pitballs are evil, but in general the majority of them are.


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## demonwolfmoon

Marlea Warlea said:


> piballs are known to be unkind dogs. I wouldn't risk my life with a breeed of dog that was known for killing.


Read up on the Diane Whipple case. It's pretty interesting:

The Diane Whipple Case

unprovoked carnage.
From dogs that were not pitbulls.


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## Marlea Warlea

ok...?


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## Dresden

Marlea Warlea said:


> True, don't get me wrong I'm not saying all pitballs are evil, but in general the majority of them are.


That's not true. They are generally good family dogs. They used to be kept by families like labs are now. Even the dog in the Little Rascals(I believe that's the correct movie or show) was a pit. Most pits who fight are trained to do so. The above example could've been any breed, there was something wrong with the dog mentally not because of her breed. 

A lot of toy breeds bite humans more often than the alleged bully breeds but the bites generally aren't as severe so they don't get the publicity.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marlea Warlea

I have a feeling pitaballs have been or are going to be banned in Australia.


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## BravadoThePony

> True, don't get me wrong I'm not saying all pitballs are evil, but in general the majority of them are.


How many pitbulls have you ever actually interacted with? They make wonderful family dogs, as others have said. 
The 'evil' pitbulls' you speak off were trained to be vicious fighters. By people. It is not ingrained to the breed.


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## Marlea Warlea

Let me tell you this.
I was beach riding with a couple of mates, there was 2 pitballs on the beach too.
One of the pitballs ran up to my mates horse and grabbed onto his shoulder. He bit it hard and the horse fell to the ground, I jumped off Marlea and ran over to the incident, I know it was a stupid thing to do but I grabbed the dogs collar and tried to drag him off the horse. I couldnt let him die. 
Eventually the dog got off him and the horse got up, there was a HUGE chunk on flesh bitten out of him and he was bleeding badly...

Another time: My friends grandma lost both her arms to a pitball attack.


And: Several children have been killed from them.


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## BravadoThePony

Same goes for almost every other breed of dog. I've had a lab come after me with intent to kill, but never a pitbull. My aunt has three and they wouldn't hurt a fly.
Aggressive horses kill people, too, you know. Are they evil?
It's not the breed, it's the environment they are raised in.


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## Marlea Warlea

True. Although people are much the same, I'd rather be around an agressive horse then an agressive person.


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## demonwolfmoon

Marlea Warlea said:


> True. Although people are much the same, I'd rather be around an agressive horse then an agressive person.


I wouldn't, and neither would you if you were thinking clearly. 

I have a CHANCE against an aggressive person. If a horse is out for blood and a person doesn't have tools....good luck outrunning a horse.

Also: My mom and aunt were attacked by their own pitbull. They were in the hospital for months and needed skin grafts, and still can't wear short sleeves. My mom is missing pieces of her BREASTS. But you know what? Had they not treated the dog the way they did, had they realized how to care for him, he would not have ended up being put down, and they would not be wearing long sleeves in summer. I knew the dog before it came to that, and I knew that he had showed signs of, and had REASON for his ...discontent.

I think that there are a lot of inconsistencies in the your arguments, Marlea. I agree with you on some levels regarding meat, but not the why. Then you say you prefer animals over people....but not them there vicious pits... You say that you can "work it out" with any animal, but that is what? Your one exception? Are there others?
I'm not picking on you, I just feel that you are thinking inside your box, and don't want to come out and see that there are other flavors in life. The thing is that when you do that, you miss out on a lot.

Another thing...do you plan on having children? You say you prefer animals over people. Can you imagine the scene? "Not now, Susie, mommy is busy with her cat/dog/gerbil" *child starts to cry*. Again, I'm not trying to attack you...but you must realize that there are some holes in your arguments. 

I am attempting to show that there is room for expansion, that's all.


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## Marlea Warlea

Ok well we're getting off topic I think, basically heres my point: I am NEVER eating meat, EVER. I love horses too much to eat them, it'd be like eating another human.
And yes, I DO prefer animals to humans, I honestly can't ever understand people (as i have said before) and if spend more then a few hours aroound people I don't love, I get angry and upset.


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## bubba13

Marlea Warlea said:


> Let me tell you this.
> I was beach riding with a couple of mates, there was 2 pitballs on the beach too.
> One of the pitballs ran up to my mates horse and grabbed onto his shoulder. He bit it hard and the horse fell to the ground, I jumped off Marlea and ran over to the incident, I know it was a stupid thing to do but I grabbed the dogs collar and tried to drag him off the horse. I couldnt let him die.
> Eventually the dog got off him and the horse got up, there was a HUGE chunk on flesh bitten out of him and he was bleeding badly...
> 
> Another time: My friends grandma lost both her arms to a pitball attack.
> 
> 
> And: Several children have been killed from them.


You obviously don't know a thing about Pit Bulls. They were, for years, considered to be an ideal family pet. Only recently has the media turned them into the black sheep of the dog world, after word of underground dogfighting got out. The truly aggressive Pits are bred specifically for dogfighting, and thus have the "viscious" gene, or are abused and mistreated until they turn violent. The vast majority of PB's, however, have neither of these qualifiers, and are just the same as any other dog. 

MANY dog breeds, including poodles and Labradors, have been involved in fatal human attacks. And small dogs, like Chihuahuas, are frequently very aggressive but too small to do serious harm, so their attacks are discounted. Not to mention that there's a great deal of inaccuracy in the public's ability to even _recognize_ a PB (so Boxer attacks and Mastiff attacks go down in the books as Pit Bull attacks due to mistaken identity). And when it comes to selling newspapers, nothing is quite as dramatic as reporting a Pit Bull attack, even when the breed of dog is unknown. Don't trust everything you read.



Marlea Warlea said:


> Heres an example of HUMAN LIKE EMOTIONS:
> My two horses (missy and moo) got onto the road, Missy got hit by a passing car and died. Moo saw the whole thing and she wouldn't eat or drink for a week. She stood by Missys grave every day for 3 months and liked it.


If your horse truly didn't eat or drink for a week, she would have died. You're anthropomorphising. No doubt she "mourned" her friend's death (missing the companionship), but she did not understand what was going on. I'd say this is a case of you projecting your emotions onto the interpretation of an animal's behavior....and missing in the accuracy department.


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## demonwolfmoon

bubba13 said:


> If your horse truly didn't eat or drink for a week, she would have died. You're anthropomorphising.


*So, the nerd in me HAD TO KNOW:*
A horse can survive without water no more than *2-3 days *(Ask the Expert -- Equine* Management)
How Long Can A Horse Live Without Food And Water? 
The second link implies that dehydration caused death at day 3 is by the mechanism of impaction colic.
There's a lot of different answers about the length of survival without access to food, but most indicate it's between 3 weeks and 1 month.


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## Marlea Warlea

When I say she didnt eat or drink for a week I mean you literally had to force her to eat and drink.


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## DrumRunner

Would I eat horse meat? Yes. Do I think the slaughter houses should reopen? Yes. 
This is a topic we've been over numerous times and it always turns out the same way. 

Fact, horses are livestock and always will be considered so. Like Bubba said, a horse doesn't know it's a pet. I personally, wouldn't kill my horses just to throw them on the grill to try but, if I was given the opportunity to try horse, I would. They are just like cows, pigs, chickens, and other animals raised for human consumption. God gave me canine teeth for a reason and I use them everyday.

When it comes to Pitbulls..Yes, there may be aggressive pitbulls out there BUT, that is because of the environment they were raised in and how they are treated by their owner/s. I have a Pitbull and she is the sweetest and most loyal dog I've ever owned. And she comes from a sad story, her last owner beat her and tried to make her a fight dog. Well when she wouldn't fight she would just get beat again. Now that I've had her, I've NEVER seen her be aggressive towards anyone for no reason. She is protective of me and when she feels like someone is "threatening" me she will come stand beside me and growl at the person. She is amazing with children and any other animals. 

Chloe, my vicious killer.


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## Marlea Warlea

Why kill horses though? It seems to me that cows, pigs chickens and various other animals simply aren't enough for some people.


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## DrumRunner

Marlea Warlea said:


> Why kill horses though? It seems to me that cows, pigs chickens and various other animals simply aren't enough for some people.


Personal choice. People have the right to choose what they want to eat and why. That's not something you nor I can change at all and it won't ever happen...What about the people all around the world that starve to death everyday? Do you think that they would blink twice thinking about eating horse meat? No, because that's a chance for that person to live. When it comes to life or death you would be surprised at the things you would choose to stay alive..

Then you have the people spread around the world that think horse meat is a delicacy. Ask someone from France or Belgium if they think it's wrong to consume horse meat. Nope..It's all about someone's personal choice and opinion..You have yours and are welcome to it, but before you act on emotions and your opinion do some research on other's opinions and way of life.


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## MHFoundation Quarters

Marlea Warlea said:


> Why kill horses though? It seems to me that cows, pigs chickens and various other animals simply aren't enough for some people.


In some places, it's the norm. Just like animals most of us eat on a regular basis aren't eaten in some places. Horses are essentially livestock like any other. I'd personally not be above trying it to satisfy curiousity, would I go eat one that's in my pasture, of course not. They weren't raised for the dinner table.


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## Marlea Warlea

True. And with that in mind, I'd thankyou to not judge a 14 year old about her opinions on this case. I have my opinion, you have yours, there is no right or wrong answer.


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## DrumRunner

I'm not judging you or being mean or harsh. I'm just stating true facts and expressing my opinion on an open board. I would never target or call out someone your age and I'm not going to now. I respect your opinion and I can understand why you would feel the way you do at your age. I probably wouldn't have tried it at your age either...


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## demonwolfmoon

Marlea Warlea said:


> Why kill horses though? It seems to me that cows, pigs chickens and various other animals simply aren't enough for some people.


I don't think this thread is a movement to kill horses as a supplement to our meat supply. This isn't a petition. I imagine what you're saying...some fat @#$&*(e out there wanting MORE MEAT to pile on their enormous pile of...meat...but we aren't talking about king's feasts and hummingbird tongues, we're talking about what your personal feelings are about eating horse.

Marlea, have you considered the impact of human intervention/expansion on animal population? It would be BETTER if people stopped breeding animals they can't support. If someone can't support their cow, they probably just eat it. If they can't support their horse....well in the United States there is a cultural understanding of the horse as a non-edible livestock animal. So instead, people breed....and then when they get broke or busy with their bf/gf, they let them starve.
Or send them to auction...where they get shipped somewhere with less quality control on how they get slaughtered...and eaten anyway.

If they choose not to starve them, and let them out somewhere, the numbers must be kept in check. There's something called population ecology. And each ecosystem can only support a certain number of organisms in each niche. Anyway, there's checks and balances in nature, and horses get sick and die, or get hurt and get eaten. By something. At least if a human does the killing, there is a chance it is less horrific than say getting chewed to death by wild dogs/wolves. Nature is not kind.

Again, for me, I'd try horse if I was in another country or cultural situation, but if the grocery store ran low on chicken, beef or pork, and the only thing left was horse, I'd probably buy tofu. 

OOC do you eat sushi? Or wear leather?


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## Marlea Warlea

Good. But I can assure you I will never try horse, or any other animal for that matter.


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## demonwolfmoon

DrumRunner said:


> I respect your opinion and I can understand why you would feel the way you do at your age. I probably wouldn't have tried it at your age either...


You're killing my dreams. When my daughter was born almost ten years ago, I told myself "wow, when she learns how to talk, we can COMMUNICATE and it will be so awesome!". *excitement!*

And then she learned to talk..... I'm still waiting...for communication and logic. I guess I may be waiting a long time. 

I was pretty smart and also pretty stubborn at 14, I wish that I had been able to open my eyes to new things sooner. Guess that's why talking to teenagers kills me xD


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## Marlea Warlea

In that case there should be a ban on 'backyard breeding.'
And I beg my mum to not buy any real leather, any product made from palm oil, and pretty much anything that harms animals. I wear fake leather and I'm a vegetarian so the only sushi I eat is vegie sushi.


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## Marlea Warlea

demonwolfmoon said:


> You're killing my dreams. When my daughter was born almost ten years ago, I told myself "wow, when she learns how to talk, we can COMMUNICATE and it will be so awesome!". *excitement!*
> 
> And then she learned to talk..... I'm still waiting...for communication and logic. I guess I may be waiting a long time.
> 
> I was pretty smart and also pretty stubborn at 14, I wish that I had been able to open my eyes to new things sooner. Guess that's why talking to teenagers kills me xD


Not many people understand my point of view, I'm stubburn and no one can change my opinion, if they try and change my opnion they're gonna be in for a hell of a lot of disapointment.


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## demonwolfmoon

Marlea Warlea said:


> Not many people understand my point of view, I'm stubburn and no one can change my opinion, if they try and change my opnion they're gonna be in for a hell of a lot of disapointment.


LOL. No one is trying to change your "opinion", it is as they say, "opinions are like..., and everyone has one".

In any case, I hope that when you are forced to get some other perspectives through education that you gain some tolerance and understanding for creatures other than horses. You are unwilling to look outside your narrow experience, and I guess at your age that is fairly normal. 

Again, try taking Phys Anth when you get the chance, it is a very fun course and it fulfills several university requirements depending on where you are at. It will be eye-opening.


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## Faceman

DrumRunner said:


> Would I eat horse meat? Yes. Do I think the slaughter houses should reopen? Yes.
> This is a topic we've been over numerous times and it always turns out the same way.
> 
> Fact, horses are livestock and always will be considered so. Like Bubba said, a horse doesn't know it's a pet. I personally, wouldn't kill my horses just to throw them on the grill to try but, if I was given the opportunity to try horse, I would. They are just like cows, pigs, chickens, and other animals raised for human consumption. God gave me canine teeth for a reason and I use them everyday.
> 
> When it comes to Pitbulls..Yes, there may be aggressive pitbulls out there BUT, that is because of the environment they were raised in and how they are treated by their owner/s. I have a Pitbull and she is the sweetest and most loyal dog I've ever owned. And she comes from a sad story, her last owner beat her and tried to make her a fight dog. Well when she wouldn't fight she would just get beat again. Now that I've had her, I've NEVER seen her be aggressive towards anyone for no reason. She is protective of me and when she feels like someone is "threatening" me she will come stand beside me and growl at the person. She is amazing with children and any other animals.
> 
> Chloe, my vicious killer.


My pit is obviously much meaner than yours...have to admit that yours is cooler, though...:wink:










As far as eating horses, I probably have eaten some without knowing it somewhere. I've eaten far worse than horse - don't know if I would ever try it on purpose, but it's bound to be better than some of the stuff I've eaten. I wonder which breed would be best? I don't think I would eat Appy - that would sort of be the opposite of brain food...:rofl:


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## Marlea Warlea

demonwolfmoon said:


> LOL. No one is trying to change your "opinion", it is as they say, "opinions are like..., and everyone has one".
> 
> In any case, I hope that when you are forced to get some other perspectives through education that you gain some tolerance and understanding for creatures other than horses. You are unwilling to look outside your narrow experience, and I guess at your age that is fairly normal.
> 
> Again, try taking Phys Anth when you get the chance, it is a very fun course and it fulfills several university requirements depending on where you are at. It will be eye-opening.


Yes, I have got some other peoples perspectives. And Phys Anth sounds sciency, science and me are forever enemies lol.


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## demonwolfmoon

Marlea Warlea said:


> Yes, I have got some other peoples perspectives. And Phys Anth sounds sciency, science and me are forever enemies lol.


zomg i got left behind carrots on this response! hehe that makes 13.

ANYWAY phys anth is like...a composite of sciences, and at the beginner level it isn't numbers and confusing stuff. It isn't culture per se either. The only parts I remember are the evolution of human kind and primates. We went over what makes a great ape and what makes a prosimian (sp?), and we went over a lot of FOSSILS! I loved it, it was so fun! A lot of people really like the 100 level course. Anything after 100 level and it starts getting "sciency", with angles and statistics. Anthropology is a multidisciplinary study, which means you get a little of everything. 
The Forensic Anth kids study Human Osteology and they can study Vertebrate and Invertebrate osteology, but they don't have to cut open any animals...those classes are rough, but the FIRST ONE you even get to go over a little archaelogy and why an understanding of anthropology is important. 
I do like the sciences however, and I am a Forensic Biology major, which comes under the Anthropology department, so I may be biased. I chose this major because honestly it makes more money than Anthropology (unless you do what Kathi Reichs does lol), but also because by doing what I do and learning what I learn, I can HELP people, and by making more money, I can help myself, my family, other people, and animals.


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## Marlea Warlea

that confused the hell outta me lol


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## demonwolfmoon

Marlea Warlea said:


> that confused the hell outta me lol


Hm, I guess it's easier to say "The 100 level is not that hard or "sciency", I think you'd like it and learn a lot!"

?


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## Marlea Warlea

uhm... maybe I'll just stick to trying to become a published author thankyou very much


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## BravadoThePony

> In that case there should be a ban on 'backyard breeding.'


In theory, maybe. But in practice the ban wouldn't do much, unfortunately. Some people would be deterred, but I can't possibly think of how that would be tracked. You can't exactly walk onto someones property and check for foals/pregnant mares. There are some places you'd get shot for even trying.
Not trying to be offensive to your idea, I used to want something like that, too.


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## DrumRunner

demonwolfmoon said:


> You're killing my dreams.


:wink: Sorry, logic and reason usually comes into play when extra chores and losing car keys comes into play..I think I got it around 17 or so..I don't have any children myself..but I do have 5 little sisters who are 8, 10, 13, 14, and 16. the 16 year old is starting to figure out a little logic but boys are also on her mind now..I only live with the 8, 10, and 16 year old..but they are enough to make me not want children any time soon..I'm NOT ready for that at 23..



Marlea Warlea said:


> Not many people understand my point of view, I'm stubburn and no one can change my opinion, if they try and change my opnion they're gonna be in for a hell of a lot of disapointment.


That's the attitude of *every* teenager in America. :wink:




Marlea Warlea said:


> In that case there should be a ban on 'backyard breeding.'


Yes, there should. But it will not happen anytime soon and some people aren't intelligent enough to not breed their mare with bad conformation to a stallion with worse issues just to have a "cute little baby foal, that I will keep forever!"




Faceman said:


> My pit is obviously much meaner than yours...have to admit that yours is cooler, though...:wink:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As far as eating horses, I probably have eaten some without knowing it somewhere. I've eaten far worse than horse - don't know if I would ever try it on purpose, but it's bound to be better than some of the stuff I've eaten. I wonder which breed would be best? I don't think I would eat Appy - that would sort of be the opposite of brain food...:rofl:


Thanks Face, Chloe is awesome. Love her.. Love seeing pictures of your Pibble too! SO cute! 

Now..let's see if all of my quotes are right?!


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## Marlea Warlea

excuuuuuuuuse me, I'm not an american, no no no i'm a darn aussie dammit lol.

Oh, I think I just proved myself wrong, if backyard breeding was illegal, I wouldnt own marlea...


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## DrumRunner

Marlea Warlea said:


> excuuuuuuuuse me, I'm not an american, no no no i'm a darn aussie dammit lol.
> .


lol Then it must be a world wide attitude for teenagers..


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## demonwolfmoon

Marlea Warlea said:


> uhm... maybe I'll just stick to trying to become a published author thankyou very much


Well, if that's *all* you want. =P
Kathi Reichs is a published Author, have you heard of "Bones"? 
She wrote the books and works with making the show. 
She is also a (working? not sure if she still does) Forensic Anthropologist who has also written text books =P


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## Marlea Warlea

lol, I've had poems published in magaiznes. So it's a start 
Yea, I've seen the show a few times, it's so gorey, i love it! lol


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## VT Trail Trotters

Marlea Warlea said:


> Horses do have feelings btw...


Oh man yes they do! I feel like horses are family and not pets, like how some people are with dogs. There family to them and they wouldn't ever dare eat them. And i forgot who it was but if you were in a Donner Party situation and you need to eat at horse to survive i would do that but that is EXTREME! If you think about it horses are very smart animals compared to other animals with hooves and not. A horse can learn quite quickly, they have emotions and can think on there own for sure. Compare this to say a cow or dog. A dog yes has feelings and can learn over time and can think on their own. Now the cow, i am not sure about cows but i am sure they have a limit of feelings and i dont think you can train cows. They "might" be able to "think on their own". Here is a link to a site that explains that horses, and i am surprised are smarter than people in some ways! How Smart are Horses Anyway?


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## Marlea Warlea

Thankyou... thankyou THANKYOU!


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## bubba13

Yep, cows are too dumb to train.

























 
In the general scheme of animal intelligence, horses just aren't all that bright. And cattle aren't far behind them at all--it's just our perception, because few people actually do take the time to listen and learn about cattle. Dogs are as smart as or smarter than horses, and when it comes to all of the aforementioned species, pigs are smarter yet. Yes, pigs....the ones you consume as bacon. They are very bright, social, friendly animals that most people just see as pork.


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## Marlea Warlea

haha LUNA THE SHOW JUMPING COW, gotta love it!


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## demonwolfmoon

bubba13 said:


> ... pigs are smarter yet. Yes, pigs....the ones you consume as bacon. They are very bright, social, friendly animals that most people just see as pork.


This is true. Another thing I was reading about is that the octopus has been shown to PLAY and solve puzzles. Because they live only three years, are reclusive (they each have a preferred "home" they like to spend time in) it is hard to gauge how intelligent they actually are...but it's up there...and we eat them anyway!


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## demonwolfmoon

bubba13 said:


> Yep, cows are too dumb to train.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Riding Chevy and April 22 and Refreshment Training - YouTube
> Riding my riding steer Jackson - RISING trot! - YouTube
> 
> .


@ Bubba...see...it took me a full couple minutes wondering if that was photoshopped. I feel like an ***. =(


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## SarahAnn

Yes, pigs are very intelligent. As are dogs and horses and cows. Pigs are the smartest of the bunch, but all are capable of knowing that they're loved. All are capable of trust. I don't speak for anyone else when I say that after all the hard work I put into my horse trusting me, it would make me some kind of heartless monster to coach in onto a transport truck, knowing it was going to get slaughtered, and knowing it TRUSTED me that whatever I was asking it to do was safe. 

I don't really care what other people do or think. If you think a horse doesn't know that you love it, either you don't really know how to love a horse or you're just blind. My horses know I love them. My horses don't come when my friends call them or when my vet calls them. But when I call them they come. If my neighbor came over and tried to get a horse to walk over a tarp (my horses obviously have- I am just using it as an example.) or do something they see as threatening, they wouldn't do it. No. Way. But when I ask them, of course they'll do it. They know I love them, and they trust me. 

And just as a side note, do you think the woman jumping that cow sent it to slaughter? Do you think she trains and spends time and loves a herd of "meat cows?" Or do you think this show jumping cow is a pet and isn't intended for meat or dairy products?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## demonwolfmoon

SarahAnn said:


> And just as a side note, do you think the woman jumping that cow sent it to slaughter? Do you think she trains and spends time and loves a herd of "meat cows?" Or do you think this show jumping cow is a pet and isn't intended for meat or dairy products?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, but I do wonder if she still eats the occasional Whopper or fires up her bbq grill 

The difference is, one is generally accepted as normal eats and one isn't. And that difference is ARBITRARY and defined by your culture.


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## SarahAnn

Well the difference in my mind isn't that one is accepted and one isn't. One is your pet, and you shouldn't eat it. I eat beef, pork, poultry, venison, and I would probably try horse. But only I'd it were a horse that had some sort of quality of life, was well fed, wasn't someone's unwanted pet, and isn't processed with a bazillion chemicals and preserving agents. 

As it is now, all the meat I eat is locally raised (beef is grass fed) and I know the farmers and can see how they're treated. They are not kept in stalls with thousands of other animals where they can't move. The meat is just that, meat. It isn't pumped full of ammonia and bleach and fillers and dye to make it LOOK fresh. Blech.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SarahAnn

And being a relatively new user here, I am TOTALLY getting why people say the subject has been beaten to death. I'm sick of talking about it already! Everyone has their own opinion, and everyone feels strongly about it. So people are bound to feel insulted, but no one is going to change their opinion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bubba13

demonwolfmoon said:


> This is true. Another thing I was reading about is that the octopus has been shown to PLAY and solve puzzles. Because they live only three years, are reclusive (they each have a preferred "home" they like to spend time in) it is hard to gauge how intelligent they actually are...but it's up there...and we eat them anyway!


Octopi are great. This video recently showed up on my home page--awesome. Notice how it makes a "crab offering" to the people watching.... 





 
And birds of many different species are ultra-smart, too. It's not just parrots and macaws, though they are the most obvious. There are some of those guys who have actually learned to _talk_. I don't just mean repeat and mimic. I mean string words together in new orders to form coherent meaning and either describe their surroundings or make requests. So much for language being only a human thing....

If you like the cow thing, there are way better videos than the ones I posted, too. There are a bunch of clips of that gal in the photo actually jumping her cow, and I've seen some pretty impressive trick routines with cowboys riding big longhorn bulls.





 
And as for a horse loving you....nope. Trusting you, sure. Turning to you for comfort and reassurance, yep. Associating you with good things--like food!--you betcha. Having a complex devotion to you and you alone....'fraid not. You've got to be careful not to anthropomorphize and project the emotions you _want _to see onto your horse's behaviors.


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## SarahAnn

How do you know for sure that your horse doesn't "love you?" It can trust you and find comfort in you but not love you? And you know this how? Is there some horse somewhere that has the ability to talk or otherwise tell you that it does not feel love? 

Even if my horses don't love me, they do trust me. And I am not about to mislead them or abandon that trust while coaching them onto a slaughter truck. But that's just me. If you want to have horse burgers from the sweet bald faced equine in your avatar, that's your decision.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bubba13

SarahAnn said:


> How do you know for sure that your horse doesn't "love you?" It can trust you and find comfort in you but not love you? And you know this how? Is there some horse somewhere that has the ability to talk or otherwise tell you that it does not feel love?


Well, "love" is just a complex biochemical process when we get right down to it--serotonin, oxytocin, and the like. Not very romantic in the end. But the conscious emotions we perceive as love, and the way we twist it, mostly comes from our highly-developed frontal cortex and massive brain surface area....something horses lack. And evolutionarily speaking, there are plenty of reasons for humans to develop a complex "love" response, but really not much reason for horses to do so. They don't even mate for life, and mares kick their foals out of the herd with hardly a backwards glance....



> Even if my horses don't love me, they do trust me. And I am not about to mislead them or abandon that trust while coaching them onto a slaughter truck. But that's just me. If you want to have horse burgers from the sweet bald faced equine in your avatar, that's your decision.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't. Though I've threatened him enough times, Lord knows....he'd probably just be too stringy. I do, however, think his head would look quite nice hanging over my mantel!

Perhaps you've missed me saying, SarahAnn, that I am a vegetarian. There's a really good discussion going on about vegetarianism and the arguments for/against it in the general topics section of this forum.

When it comes to white-faced Rebby, he's an old cripple who carried me to some respectable wins barrel racing years ago. Then he went lame. I've spent a lot of money trying to get him sound, but as it is, he's bound to be a permanent pasture pet. So that's what he'll be, by Jove. I owe him that. He can live on here until he gets too sore to carry on, at which point he'll be euthanized. Though I must say, if there was a humane (and safe--he's on too many supplements and medications) way to have someone come out to the house, painlessly captive bolt him, and use him to feed either the zoo's lions or needy people around here....I'd probably do it. But there's not, so I won't.


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## VT Trail Trotters

Octopus are very smart crustation along with crows and monkeys. But the average person will not own these as pets and normally dont eat them. And monkeys are like people just really hairy with tails and they can kill you quite easily for the chimps. But a steer or cow being used as a riding animal is not something you can find quite easy. And equine are not historically eaten in large numbers compared if you compare that to pigs and cows where you had cow boys diving cows to the trains to be shipped to the east coast. There i am pretty sure a reason why we eat cows and not horses.


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## bubba13

VT Trail Trotters said:


> Octopus are very smart crustation along with crows and monkeys. But the average person will not own these as pets and normally dont eat them.


In the US, no, but that's as much do to lack of availability (don't see too many monkeys hanging around here) and cultural norms as anything else. For most of us, the thought of eating octopus or monkey is just really icky, although you can certainly get the former in some Japanese restaurants. People in Asia and Africa, on the other hand, have very different opinions. And on that note, ask a devout Indian Hindu about eating a cow. No, no, no--cattle are sacred, and we must not harm them.



> And monkeys are like people just really hairy with tails and they can kill you quite easily for the chimps.


There's a big range in monkey intelligence and behavior. Chimpanzees, by the way, are our closest relatives, and they are not monkeys at all but rather great apes. They have complex social structures, hunt cooperatively for food, and use tools. When it comes to the true monkeys, look at baboons. They're eaten in some places, but when you get down to observe them, it's amazing how human they are. I saw a male and a female in a cage at the local "safari" place. He was the stereotypical wife beater, and she was the stereotypical submissive girlfriend. They might as well have been on an episode of _Cops_. She had to ask him for permission every time she went to take food from us, or else he'd get mad and beat her. It would have been funny if it wasn't so sad.



> But a steer or cow being used as a riding animal is not something you can find quite easy.


And why is that? Cultural norms, again. Historically, most of the labor, plowing, and load-pulling was done by oxen or cattle, not horses.



> And equine are not historically eaten in large numbers


Depends on who you ask. Many cultures ate and still eat horses. During rough economic times, horsemeat was used as a supplement or substitute for beef. The American troops were fed horsemeat during the World Wars.



> compared if you compare that to pigs and cows where you had cow boys diving cows to the trains to be shipped to the east coast. There i am pretty sure a reason why we eat cows and not horses.


The horses the cowboys rode were not exactly well-treated. They were ridden hard and typically slaughtered at the end of their useful lives. The only difference was that they were not typically used for human consumption, but rather for hide, hair, by-products, and animal feed.

Our moral compunction against eating horses goes way back to the early Christian era, where it was seen as a barbaric, "heathen" meat to consume. But that's just, well, culture. There really is no _valid_ difference between eating a horse, a cow, or a pig.


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## Faceman

VT Trail Trotters said:


> Octopus are very smart crustation along with crows and monkeys. But the average person will not own these as pets and normally dont eat them. And monkeys are like people just really hairy with tails and they can kill you quite easily for the chimps. But a steer or cow being used as a riding animal is not something you can find quite easy. And equine are not historically eaten in large numbers compared if you compare that to pigs and cows where you had cow boys diving cows to the trains to be shipped to the east coast. There i am pretty sure a reason why we eat cows and not horses.


An octopus is not a crustacean...it is a mollusc...


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## VT Trail Trotters

bubba13 said:


> In the US, no, but that's as much do to lack of availability (don't see too many monkeys hanging around here) and cultural norms as anything else. For most of us, the thought of eating octopus or monkey is just really icky, although you can certainly get the former in some Japanese restaurants. People in Asia and Africa, on the other hand, have very different opinions. And on that note, ask a devout Indian Hindu about eating a cow. No, no, no--cattle are sacred, and we must not harm them.
> 
> 
> 
> There's a big range in monkey intelligence and behavior. Chimpanzees, by the way, are our closest relatives, and they are not monkeys at all but rather great apes. They have complex social structures, hunt cooperatively for food, and use tools. When it comes to the true monkeys, look at baboons. They're eaten in some places, but when you get down to observe them, it's amazing how human they are. I saw a male and a female in a cage at the local "safari" place. He was the stereotypical wife beater, and she was the stereotypical submissive girlfriend. They might as well have been on an episode of _Cops_. She had to ask him for permission every time she went to take food from us, or else he'd get mad and beat her. It would have been funny if it wasn't so sad.
> 
> 
> 
> And why is that? Cultural norms, again. Historically, most of the labor, plowing, and load-pulling was done by oxen or cattle, not horses.
> 
> 
> 
> Depends on who you ask. Many cultures ate and still eat horses. During rough economic times, horsemeat was used as a supplement or substitute for beef. The American troops were fed horsemeat during the World Wars.
> 
> 
> 
> The horses the cowboys rode were not exactly well-treated. They were ridden hard and typically slaughtered at the end of their useful lives. The only difference was that they were not typically used for human consumption, but rather for hide, hair, by-products, and animal feed.
> 
> Our moral compunction against eating horses goes way back to the early Christian era, where it was seen as a barbaric, "heathen" meat to consume. But that's just, well, culture. There really is no _valid_ difference between eating a horse, a cow, or a pig.


In this part "And equine are not historically eaten in large numbers" i meant the US. But still would YOU eat a horse.


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## demonwolfmoon

Ok:
1) @ Bubba, that octopus video...I've watched it, and I will see that thing in my nightmares!!!!! Ugh.

2) I've eaten sushi, and I'm pretty sure some of those tentacles were octopi. <3 sushi

3) I've READ that in Europe for awhile there they were breeding drafties for larger size for consumption purposes. Bigger horse = more "chevaline". 

4) The subphylum "Crustacea" have outer shells, and as someone pointed out, the octopus does not.

5) The Hindi-American I know is most definitely a *vegetarian.* I can ask him how they feel about cows in modern American culture if you all want.  I do know it is traditionally been distasteful.

I've threatened every animal I own with me eating it, and even my kids. They all know better. xD

As for whether or not animals "love" us...I think dogs love us, and I think other animals appreciate us as individuals who provide for their needs. I'm not sure if they are capable of "love" in the way humans imagine it. Do they feel something? Yes. Is it love the way we define it? I doubt it. Some dogs will risk their lives to save human beings from danger, which goes against their own instinct for self preservation (fires for example). The question is, is it because they "love' us, or have strong pack instincts? 

Interesting side note, I was watching a documentary...were you guys aware that there is fossil evidence that the DIRE WOLVES cared for their injured????? They had pretty aggressive pack dominance issues, but they have skulls from SEVERE and crippling skull injuries that HEALED. The animals would never have been able to survive hunting during that time with such injuries. 
Anyway, don't underestimate animals...but don't OVERESTIMATE their capabilities either. Each animal is it's own individual creature with it's own quirks and it's own innate capabilities, but as a generality are limited by the norms of their species.

Example: I have a cat that I love to pieces. He is a big 15 + pound Maine ****. I like to think that he cares about me too...he spends sleep time with me, he follows me around and stands on me like a dog when I'm not dangling food. Would he save me from a fire like a human family member might? Probably not. _Would he eat me if I died?
..._
...
I bet that's a question you guys haven't thought of, but being Forensic Bio...yeah...there's a lot of that if you aren't found immediately.

So the answer is...probably, if I died and his kibble ran out, he'd be eating Demonwolf burgers. 
Do I think he cares about me? Yes...within his ability as a cat, I'm sure he does. It is just limited to his capabilities as a cat.  *And that love wouldn't stop him from wasting meat if I were to pass away.*


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## SarahAnn

I have heard of stories of dogs sitting with their owners dead bodies for over a weeks time, starving, and they didn't decide to have a nice piece of tenderloin. But yeah, you're probably right. 

A horse, for sure, would not eat your dead body. There was someone who posted on a different thread, a story of her horse risking his life for his owner. He died, and the owner lived. So, yes, even being the flight animals they are, they are loyal. Maybe the love they feel isn't "squishy" like human love tends to be. But by MY PERSONAL definition, love is trusting someone, feeling comfortable with someone, and being loyal to someone (and in return having someone who is loyal to you, hopefully.) By that definition, I think a horse is certainly capable. And I love my family and every single member of it. Even if they do not love me the same way in return. I would not eat my horse. I would not kill my horse to feed my neighbors. I do not sell my horses. When I "adopt" someone into my family it's a life long commitment. I wouldn't slaughter my child, and to me, its no different.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## VT Trail Trotters

demonwolfmoon said:


> Ok:
> 1) @ Bubba, that octopus video...I've watched it, and I will see that thing in my nightmares!!!!! Ugh.
> 
> 2) I've eaten sushi, and I'm pretty sure some of those tentacles were octopi. <3 sushi
> 
> 3) I've READ that in Europe for awhile there they were breeding drafties for larger size for consumption purposes. Bigger horse = more "chevaline".
> 
> 4) The subphylum "Crustacea" have outer shells, and as someone pointed out, the octopus does not.
> 
> 5) The Hindi-American I know is most definitely a *vegetarian.* I can ask him how they feel about cows in modern American culture if you all want.  I do know it is traditionally been distasteful.
> 
> I've threatened every animal I own with me eating it, and even my kids. They all know better. xD
> 
> As for whether or not animals "love" us...I think dogs love us, and I think other animals appreciate us as individuals who provide for their needs. I'm not sure if they are capable of "love" in the way humans imagine it. Do they feel something? Yes. Is it love the way we define it? I doubt it. Some dogs will risk their lives to save human beings from danger, which goes against their own instinct for self preservation (fires for example). The question is, is it because they "love' us, or have strong pack instincts?
> 
> Interesting side note, I was watching a documentary...were you guys aware that there is fossil evidence that the DIRE WOLVES cared for their injured????? They had pretty aggressive pack dominance issues, but they have skulls from SEVERE and crippling skull injuries that HEALED. The animals would never have been able to survive hunting during that time with such injuries.
> Anyway, don't underestimate animals...but don't OVERESTIMATE their capabilities either. Each animal is it's own individual creature with it's own quirks and it's own innate capabilities, but as a generality are limited by the norms of their species.
> 
> Example: I have a cat that I love to pieces. He is a big 15 + pound Maine ****. I like to think that he cares about me too...he spends sleep time with me, he follows me around and stands on me like a dog when I'm not dangling food. Would he save me from a fire like a human family member might? Probably not. _Would he eat me if I died?
> ..._
> ...
> I bet that's a question you guys haven't thought of, but being Forensic Bio...yeah...there's a lot of that if you aren't found immediately.
> 
> So the answer is...probably, if I died and his kibble ran out, he'd be eating Demonwolf burgers.
> Do I think he cares about me? Yes...within his ability as a cat, I'm sure he does. It is just limited to his capabilities as a cat.  *And that love wouldn't stop him from wasting meat if I were to pass away.*


Like i said and who ever else it was if i or you were in a situation where you had no food and only say a dead horse because of the cold in a Donner Party situation heck you want to live your gonna eat the horse or what ever animal is. And you DWolf, your cat may eat you if you died and had nothing to eat it may eat you to live. And for the people that would go to a restaurant or some place and want to eat horse, would you eat dog? I would never unless to save my life i would not eat a horse.


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## bubba13

Even being vegetarian, if someone offered me horsemeat, I think curiosity might get the better of me and I'd try it just once. Same with dog. But then again, I don't much like dogs anyway...!


----------



## Quariesian

DrumRunner said:


> Would I eat horse meat? Yes. Do I think the slaughter houses should reopen? Yes.
> This is a topic we've been over numerous times and it always turns out the same way.
> 
> Fact, horses are livestock and always will be considered so. Like Bubba said, a horse doesn't know it's a pet. I personally, wouldn't kill my horses just to throw them on the grill to try but, if I was given the opportunity to try horse, I would. They are just like cows, pigs, chickens, and other animals raised for human consumption. God gave me canine teeth for a reason and I use them everyday.
> 
> When it comes to Pitbulls..Yes, there may be aggressive pitbulls out there BUT, that is because of the environment they were raised in and how they are treated by their owner/s. I have a Pitbull and she is the sweetest and most loyal dog I've ever owned. And she comes from a sad story, her last owner beat her and tried to make her a fight dog. Well when she wouldn't fight she would just get beat again. Now that I've had her, I've NEVER seen her be aggressive towards anyone for no reason. She is protective of me and when she feels like someone is "threatening" me she will come stand beside me and growl at the person. She is amazing with children and any other animals.
> 
> Chloe, my vicious killer.


  She's adorable! I smiled when I saw this. I love pitbulls and know lots of people who do as well. I have to agree that they make marvelous pets and protectors.


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## demonwolfmoon

VT Trail Trotters said:


> Like i said and who ever else it was if i or you were in a situation where you had no food and only say a dead horse because of the cold in a Donner Party situation heck you want to live your gonna eat the horse or what ever animal is. And you DWolf, your cat may eat you if you died and had nothing to eat it may eat you to live. And for the people that would go to a restaurant or some place and want to eat horse, would you eat dog? I would never unless to save my life i would not eat a horse.


 VT, I'd be ok with my cat eating me, I think I'd understand. Of course, it would necessitate closed casket but I'd be happy if he lived. I love him.

Would I eat a dog? I am 1/4 Filipino, and if I were to go to the Phillipines to see relatives, and they offered me dog, I would not say no. I wouldn't go seek it. =x
Then again...as I've said before, I'm not a big meat eater.


----------



## demonwolfmoon

@Sarah Ann:
My instructor in Criminalistics was once bitten buy some guy's dog that didn't want to stop eating his food source. TBH I'm not sure how I'd handle that, which is why I want to work in a lab.

Anyway, I was curious, as I usually am:
NEW cats eat owner
Seven dogs hungry for 14 days eat owner - Emirates 24/7
Canada | Dogs | Owners | SPCA
Dog Eats Man's Toes As He Sleeps <---this guy is diabetic and his dog didn't wait for him to die, but ate his toes while he slept.

ETS, the Indonesian guy probably deserved it. He left them starving, and they killed and ate him when he came back.


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## bubba13

While we're on the article spree, here's why we don't eat horses: The Vatican versus the Vikings - The roots of the American horse-eating taboo | Horsetalk - equestrian feature articles


----------



## SarahAnn

Annnd of course there is going to be stories of the opposite. There are always conflicting stories. Maybe your dog would eat you. But I really don't think your horse would. He's supposed to be a vegetarian! And hell, even if he did- I would be dead so I guess it wouldn't matter much to me at that point anyway.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## demonwolfmoon

SarahAnn said:


> Annnd of course there is going to be stories of the opposite. There are always conflicting stories. Maybe your dog would eat you. But I really don't think your horse would. He's supposed to be a vegetarian! And hell, even if he did- I would be dead so I guess it wouldn't matter much to me at that point anyway.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Lol, I like that about science though! There's usually other things you have to take into consideration that might skew your results. If there's ten papers on why something is beneficial, there's always going to be an eleventh on why it is not! These are all things that you have to think about when formulating an opinion, scientific or otherwise! 
I like it <3
Anyway that was why I argued about outliers when Bubba (?) was talking about mules breeding. It's happened, sure...just about twice in the past 100 years. So if we consider that as part of the statistic and just say...mules aren't sterile...you aren't considering the 99.5 percent or more of them that ARE sterile. 

Anyway I imagine most of us have loved ones that would miss us if we died, so that our poor kittens would not be stuck having to eat us.


----------



## SarahAnn

As long as my husband doesn't carve me up and serve me with a baked potato and couscous, I guess I have nothing to complain about!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## VT Trail Trotters

bubba13 said:


> While we're on the article spree, here's why we don't eat horses: The Vatican versus the Vikings - The roots of the American horse-eating taboo | Horsetalk - equestrian feature articles


Very interesting link there and now i am just a little bit smarter on the subject. And its not taboo to eat people i am sure its illegal and if not then i dont know what to think other than all you dont eat each other.


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## bubba13

No, a horse wouldn't eat ya....but they have been known, when provoked or when mentally unstable, to tear a person to pieces.


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## bubba13

Um, pretty sure it IS taboo, as well as illegal, to cannibalize. That's what the Donner party case was all about.


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## SarahAnn

I was joking. I am fairly positive that my husband is not going to eat me if I die.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bubba13

I was replying to VT.


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## Quariesian

bubba13 said:


> No, a horse wouldn't eat ya....but they have been known, when provoked or when mentally unstable, to tear a person to pieces.
> 
> ANIMAL ATTACK - Horse Attacks Guy in Retaliation (MOST DARING) - YouTube


 Holy crap! :O That horse was NOT right in the head. I had an instructor who wasn't known for being too nice to horses that had something similar happen to her. She ended up with some broken ribs afterwards.


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## SarahAnn

That dude deserved that!! I hope he learned his lesson!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinyliny

the soundtrack sounds like it was added. Just not like a real horse sound.


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## bubba13

I always watch YouTube with my speakers on mute, so I dunno what you're talking about. I have heard some angry horses make some pretty godawful sounds, though.


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## VT Trail Trotters

If you were that horse and if you were a mentally stable horse you would too go and flip out and put hoof prints on someones face if they were beating you. There is a horse named Lance who i rode a few times and he hates getting tacked up and he will turn his head around and not bite but look like it and it is alone scary.


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## Marlea Warlea

Fair play to that horse!


----------



## DrumRunner

Quariesian said:


> She's adorable! I smiled when I saw this. I love pitbulls and know lots of people who do as well. I have to agree that they make marvelous pets and protectors.


Thank you. She's an awesome dog. She missed the "I'm supposed to be a killer" memo. Instead she lives a very comfy life being spoiled and loved on by little kids..


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## Faceman

DrumRunner said:


> Thank you. She's an awesome dog. She missed the "I'm supposed to be a killer" memo. Instead she lives a very comfy life being spoiled and loved on by little kids..


If you know a way to keep pit bulls and little kids apart, let me know...they are like magnets attracted to each other. Mine will drag me through the dirt to meet a new kid. I think it's funny sometimes because kids look at pits and see something totally different than we adults see...maybe because they don't have the negative hype drilled into them


----------



## DrumRunner

Faceman said:


> If you know a way to keep pit bulls and little kids apart, let me know...they are like magnets attracted to each other. Mine will drag me through the dirt to meet a new kid. I think it's funny sometimes because kids look at pits and see something totally different than we adults see...maybe because they don't have the negative hype drilled into them


I know! Chloe is just like that..If I take her to a barrel show with me she will just sit and stare at any smaller kids and whine until they come up to her..The parent usually has typical "ZOMG! It's a mean dog. Don't pet it." reaction but I'll squat down beside her and let the kid come up and she immediately turns on her charm and licks them and rolls over for them to scratch her stomach..Then I am flocked by kids the rest of the show..

I mean come on, you can't deny that look of cuteness..


----------



## crimsonsky

bubba13 said:


> It used to be that vet schools and research facilities could get their "sacrifice" dogs from the pound....dogs that were going to be euthanized anyway. But PETA and related groups had a hissy fit about that, and insisted that the labs breed their own dogs. So now you have twice as many dogs dying, and the purpose-bred lab dogs never get to have a good point in their lives like hopefully the pound dogs did, once upon a time when they were free or living with a family....the purpose-bred research dogs spend their whole lives in a metal cage and then suffer and are killed, totally needlessly. Way to go, PETA.


i haven't read the entire thread yet so i apologize if this is addressed further along... but may i ask if you can more clearly specify/define "sacrifice" animals for me in regards to laboratory testing? i think i know but i'd rather be sure of what you're referencing.


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## bubba13

I'm referring to two different definitions.

The first is just the politically-correct term. You don't "kill" or "euthanize" animals in the course of an experiment, and they don't "die." They are "sacrificed." That's what you'll read in the scientific journals.

The way I was using the word, though, is to refer to terminal labs in veterinary and medical school. It's most frequently done on dogs nowadays. You take a dog, anesthestize it, perform surgery on it, and, when the surgery is complete, just euthanize it on the table. Sometimes the dogs are woken back up and used for further practice surgeries and only euthanized at the end. Regardless, they are sacrificed for the sake of the students' knowledge.


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## crimsonsky

interesting. thank you for clarifying for me.


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## Faceman

I knew that, because Mrs. Face has threatened to sacrifice me on several occasions...


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## eventerjumpergirl

Marlea Warlea said:


> Yes yes I know but I can't help it. People confuse the hell outta me and when I get confused watch out!
> I have something called Apsergers Syndrome, look it up


Aspergers, honey. Aspergers.


----------



## eventerjumpergirl

demonwolfmoon said:


> Marlea Warlea, they do not...unless you have the understanding that human beings, **** sapiens, are animals too.
> 
> We are primates.
> 
> We humans have the conceit that we are somehow not animals due to our superior...something...ethics or religion perhaps. I will say that because of CULTURE we are different, because we have a culture that we orally pass on, and we have cultural expectations that affect our emotional well being. Animals do not have that, and outside of a few common things...well you cannot say that they feel emotion the way we do. What is similar? I would imagine that fear is. We all experience fear for our lives.
> 
> Anyway, I suggest that you take a Physical Anthropology class, maybe some upper level (college) biology. I think that would really help you. Right now, I think that despite other issues you've mentioned, that you are young and vulnerable and empathizing heavily with animals makes you feel better. I too feel like my life is much better for my relationship with animals...but I don't prefer them to (all) people, as you've stated before.
> 
> Some people, but not people in general. =P
> 
> ETS: I understand why you'd find horse distasteful if you find all animal flesh morally distasteful...it's a good reason to not want to eat it.


Ever taken a psych course? Im sure thats more legit than an anthropology class. Anyways, all I'm saying is these animals have more feeling than you do. Need I find you the video of a dog being skinned alive in china when activists were fighting that one? Tell me the look you see in that dogs eyes after he has been skinned. I see betrayal. You probably see nothing, because you are a conceited human. Human nature I guess. We are primates, they are animals and have feelings. Primates stands for *******s as far as Im concerned.


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## eventerjumpergirl

Marlea Warlea said:


> piballs are known to be unkind dogs. I wouldn't risk my life with a breeed of dog that was known for killing.


They arent killers unless of course they arent trained properly from the beginning. People breed it into them and have no common sense most of the time to train them. They were bred to be fighting dogs so now its in their genes and people are too stupid to learn how to deal with it. I've known several rehabilitated from severe situations. could they pull it anytime now that its been triggered before? Sure. But its not nearly as likely


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## bubba13

> Primates stands for *******s as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## eventerjumpergirl

Quariesian said:


> Holy crap! :O That horse was NOT right in the head. I had an instructor who wasn't known for being too nice to horses that had something similar happen to her. She ended up with some broken ribs afterwards.


The horse wasnt right in the head? clearly he was. I mean, you treat another kid or adult like crap, likely you will get punched in the face. It was justified, far as Im concerned. Do remember the golden rule..it does apply to humans ya know. God almighty wont save ugly sins.


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## eventerjumpergirl

bubba13 said:


>


Hahah  Poor guy, makin fun of him. But hey, fair game.


----------



## bubba13

eventerjumpergirl said:


> Ever taken a psych course? Im sure thats more legit than an anthropology class. *Anyways, all I'm saying is these animals have more feeling than you do.*


What leads you to believe this?



> We are primates, they are animals and have feelings. Primates stands for *******s as far as Im concerned.


Primates are animals. Unless you want to argue with this guy.












eventerjumpergirl said:


> The horse wasnt right in the head? clearly he was. I mean, you treat another kid or adult like crap, likely you will get punched in the face. It was justified, far as Im concerned. Do remember the golden rule..it does apply to humans ya know. God almighty wont save ugly sins.


Justified, sure. Just desserts. But not exactly typical horse behavior. I think you're anthropomorphizing quite a bit.


----------



## eventerjumpergirl

bubba13 said:


> What leads you to believe this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Primates are animals. Unless you want to argue with this guy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Justified, sure. Just desserts. But not exactly typical horse behavior. I think you're anthropomorphizing quite a bit.


Gee.. Idk. Ever payed attention to body language? Vocal sounds? The expressions on their face? When they play with your hair, trot up to you, etc? You know I dont treat any of my horses after work, right? Thats how I know they enjoy it. They dont come to me because Im the hand that feeds them.
Even more proof of it? My saddlebred. Unhandled, wild, and 5 years old. Jumped a fence getting away from people. 2 months building trust and a bond. People didnt even think he would get that far, they said he wasnt right in the head, garbage, screw his bloodlines, send him to the packers. I waited him out. He follows me like a puppy now this horse. He greets me when I walk in the barn and walk out to his pen. He ignores his food being put in his stall and comes to see me first. 28 rides later, 3 months I've had him, and people have finally looked at him and gone..****, its possible. It doesnt take an idiot to realize humans arent the only ones who get second chances and in some situations, there are others who are more deserving of second chances. That horse in my profile? Thats my main man. Right there. 

So dont waste your time telling us, that animals cannot feel. That they do not care and do not know. I have even heard people say the look of betrayal when they had their pigs, made them sick. Cowboys, for god sakes! People that I have seen beat their horses, saying they are work animals and do not have feelings, have cracked over their livestock.


Awe, hes cute.

Course its not typical. No behavior is 'typical', its taught in the way a child and animal are raised.


----------



## bubba13

> Course its not typical. No behavior is 'typical', its taught in the way a child and animal are raised.


Like migration, for example?


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## eventerjumpergirl

Okay, so there are conditioned responses and unconditioned responses. But most behavior is learned. Most behavior comes from when they were brought up.

There is still, a distinct difference between what is instinct and what is taught/trained.


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## bubba13

Nature versus nurture is an old debate, but studies with twins and some interesting gender studies (such as the tragic case of the botched circumcision leading to castration, a boy being raised as a girl, his biological realization, and then his eventual suicide: David Reimer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) lead to the conclusion that the former plays a much greater role. You can't deny instinct, either. Some behaviors can be modified through training, but for the most part, temperament and personality cannot. Genetics, plain and simple.

I would hazard a guess that there is not a single horse in my pasture that, even if brutally beaten, would turn on a person with a bloodlust.


----------



## eventerjumpergirl

bubba13 said:


> Nature versus nurture is an old debate, but studies with twins and some interesting gender studies (such as the tragic case of the botched circumcision leading to castration, a boy being raised as a girl, his biological realization, and then his eventual suicide: David Reimer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) lead to the conclusion that the former plays a much greater role. You can't deny instinct, either. Some behaviors can be modified through training, but for the most part, temperament and personality cannot. Genetics, plain and simple.
> 
> I would hazard a guess that there is not a single horse in my pasture that, even if brutally beaten, would turn on a person with a bloodlust.



Hmm..now what does that tell you, if thats the case? That they clearly are kinder than people? That they dont need violence for justice in the end? 

I aint talking religion. Screw the bible, sorry if that offends. Its BS written by man.


----------



## eventerjumpergirl

bubba13 said:


> Nature versus nurture is an old debate, but studies with twins and some interesting gender studies (such as the tragic case of the botched circumcision leading to castration, a boy being raised as a girl, his biological realization, and then his eventual suicide: David Reimer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) lead to the conclusion that the former plays a much greater role. You can't deny instinct, either. Some behaviors can be modified through training, but for the most part, temperament and personality cannot. Genetics, plain and simple.
> 
> I would hazard a guess that there is not a single horse in my pasture that, even if brutally beaten, would turn on a person with a bloodlust.


Also..if you cant deny instinct and he killed himself because he knew he was a guy and was raised as a woman, which left him troubled..then what does this tell you about the transgendered? 

Oh, right. Its normal! Because that right there, is enough proof.


----------



## eventerjumpergirl

Anyways, I am so tired of all the horse slaughter crap over the last few days.. Its legal. Rescues, stop rescuing pieces of crap that were ruined and take the ones with potential. Everyone else..stop all this yammering on how much all of you and I hate it, and fight for it to be more humane rather than cause more suffering. They suffer whether its here or not. Put your energy into solutions rather than ending it without closing down the sources. Its headed the right way, but its not done. The worlds ugly. Deaths ugly, human or animal. Everyone feels pain at some point. Welcome to life. Im tired of debating. I do have school work to worry about, I have 2 years until pre-vet. So Im out. Night and cheers!


----------



## bubba13

Not kinder than people. Meeker. Prey species. Prefer fright and flight to fight. They don't have the predatory _instincts_ that drive aggression.

Or, is this a horse exhibiting kindness?





 
Before you go on about it being "mercy," keep in mind that this is the foal of a competing stallion, and I think that is a far greater motive. I don't know so much about horses (probably largely because there are no truly wild horses remaining, and ferals just aren't the same deal), but zebra stallions will absolutely kill foals sired by other males so that they can breed with the mare and pass on their own genetic material. This sort of behavior is fairly common among mammals.


----------



## bubba13

eventerjumpergirl said:


> Also..if you cant deny instinct and he killed himself because he knew he was a guy and was raised as a woman, which left him troubled..then what does this tell you about the transgendered?
> 
> Oh, right. Its normal! Because that right there, is enough proof.


He wasn't transgendered in a biological sense, and he wasn't a hermaphrodite. He was a man being told he was a woman. He had a man's brain that just couldn't handle the psychological stress.



eventerjumpergirl said:


> Rescues, stop rescuing pieces of crap that were ruined and take the ones with potential.


Doesn't every horse deserve an equal right to live, being an "innocent animal" and all?


----------



## eventerjumpergirl

bubba13 said:


> Not kinder than people. Meeker. Prey species. Prefer fright and flight to fight. They don't have the predatory _instincts_ that drive aggression.
> 
> Or, is this a horse exhibiting kindness?
> 
> Nature's Curse... - YouTube
> 
> Before you go on about it being "mercy," keep in mind that this is the foal of a competing stallion, and I think that is a far greater motive. I don't know so much about horses (probably largely because there are no truly wild horses remaining, and ferals just aren't the same deal), but zebra stallions will absolutely kill foals sired by other males so that they can breed with the mare and pass on their own genetic material. This sort of behavior is fairly common among mammals.


Its going after its own species. The way humans do. But humans go after other species too. We fight instead of flight, and yet, are we not more prey than most?


----------



## eventerjumpergirl

bubba13 said:


> He wasn't transgendered in a biological sense, and he wasn't a hermaphrodite. He was a man being told he was a woman. He had a man's brain that just couldn't handle the psychological stress.
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't every horse deserve an equal right to live, being an "innocent animal" and all?



Well, exactly. But a man who is transgendered and believes he is a woman, wont take the psychological stress either of simply being told he is a man by his body parts when he has the mind/thought process of a woman. 

Yea, they do. But in this world, it aint happening. Funny tho, considering some of the scummiest people on earth get to live. We should trade those horses who deserve to live, for the murderers and rapists, etc if thats the case. Seeing as we have no death penalty, which in my mind is the same as slaughter, but too kind to people who dont even deserve that much dignity. /shrug

Its all in opinions, I suppose.


----------



## SorrelHorse

I'm not going to get back into the slaughter argument so I'm going to give you my opinion on the MEAT only.

It's purple. Doesn't taste good to me. It's okay, but not great, I'll stick to my cows thanks.

End of my opinion.


----------



## bubba13

eventerjumpergirl said:


> Its going after its own species. The way humans do. But humans go after other species too. We fight instead of flight, and yet, are we not more prey than most?


When put in a threatening situation, people will rationalize their options and choose to either attempt to flee or defend themselves depending on their chances for survival. I don't think you can definitively say either way which it will be.

How are we more prey than most, given our extreme predatory skills? And how is going after ones own species justifiable ("moral?") if cross-species violence is not tolerated? Predatory animals certainly go after other species in the natural order. Some of them play quite brutally ("cruelly?") with their prey.



eventerjumpergirl said:


> Well, exactly. But a man who is transgendered and believes he is a woman, wont take the psychological stress either of simply being told he is a man by his body parts when he has the mind/thought process of a woman.


Which goes against your argument that it's all nurture and not nature--the "all behaviors are learned" and so on.


----------



## demonwolfmoon

*http://www.horseforum.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1255803*



eventerjumpergirl said:


> *Ever taken a psych course?* Im sure thats more legit than an anthropology class. Anyways, all I'm saying is these animals have more feeling than you do. Need I find you the video of a dog being skinned alive in china when activists were fighting that one? Tell me the look you see in that dogs eyes after he has been skinned. I see betrayal. You probably see nothing, because you are a conceited human. Human nature I guess. We are primates, they are animals and have feelings. Primates stands for *******s as far as Im concerned.


Yes, I have taken a psych course. And lot's of criminal justice. And lots of forensic science. Outside of forensic science, my main courseload has been biology and chemistry.

That being said, I always hated psych. I find it to be really relentlessly boring, and it and Human Growth and Development have so much in common half of the time I felt like they were the same course. 

...and that being said, once again, I have to say that you have some sort of self-hate going on. And you can feel free to take this with a grain of salt. I am not a social person, and I believe that the death penalty, with criminals that we are SURE committed the crime (ex) outside DNA never belongs *inside* of an infant) is about the same as putting down a rabid dog. Niether fits in with the norms of the existing society and their existence is detrimental to the whole, and expends energy. Cut and dry.

SO, *my* saying that you clearly have some self-hate issues that you are imposing on the rest of **** sapiens? Yeah, you really should consider that. It is affecting your arguments here, and not in any way that provides you with credibility.

As for the dog in China...I'm not an expert, but I'd have to say what you "see in his eyes" is *PAIN!!!!!!!!* I try not to anthropomorphize, and I won't call it betrayal,considering that cat/dog is a meal you'll find in Asia...but I'm 100 percent sure that dogs and cats feel physical pain. They let me know this when I accidentally step on their tails. 

**
*Where is your proof that animals "feel more" than I/we do? *Is that physical or emotional? If so, who is the judge? Where is your studies and proof? Or again, are you putting down the human race as unfeeling? If so, prejudice is evident. If I'm wrong, SHOW ME; I like to learn.

PS) Psychology is more legit than anthropology? How? At least anthropology has actual artifacts and physical evidence to back it. What did Freud have? Please let me know how you feel about his Theory of Developmental Behavior (among other things, lol).


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## demonwolfmoon

SorrelHorse said:


> It's purple. Doesn't taste good to me. It's okay, but not great, I'll stick to my cows thanks.
> 
> End of my opinion.


....Is it REALLY PURPLE? That's gross!!! I think my education (well, my invented hangups lol) + personal beliefs + these threads are making it really difficult to eat anything other than eggs these days lol.


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## demonwolfmoon

*Couple of issues....*



eventerjumpergirl said:


> Hmm..now what does that tell you, if thats the case? That they clearly are kinder than people? _That they dont need violence for justice in the end? _
> 
> I aint talking religion. *Screw the bible, sorry if that offends. Its BS written by man*.


A couple of issues with this:

1) Did you watch that picture of the stallion stomping the foal to death and ripping it around until it died? That certainly wasn't mercy and it wasn't kind.

2) Were you aware of the fact that male cats, big and small will murder a litter of kits to induce estrus so he can reproduce *his* genes? (translation: kitty boys like to have sex with kitty girls, and will kill kyoooot kittens to get there).

3) Have you ever sat and watched animals have an altercation? I have a lot of cats, and I watch them. I have seen my males run my husbands witchy girl cat from the food dish, preventing her from eating. I've also seen a cat respond to licking from another by grabbing the licking cat around the neck and biting it's throat until it leaves. 

Sounds like Monday at the office/school, right? That's exactly how I feel before my coffee. 

4) Lastly, do you even realize how offensive that bit about the Bible is?
I am the LEAST religious person you will find...in fact, go ahead and call me an athiest.

But it is wrong.
Wrong.
Wrong.
To attack the beliefs of others (aka, the Bible as a holy book), especially in the way that you did on an internet forum. It is one thing to say that you doubt the validity, or it is possible it is mistranslated, or it is likely written by man...any number of less offensive things than "it is a bunch of crap". Any of those things is inherently more respectful than what you said...which implies that someone's BELIEFS are a bunch of crap. 

*I can argue there that regardless of the validity of ANY holy book, a person's religion and their beliefs, their faith should not be relegated to "a bunch of crap". It's a matter of RESPECT for your fellow man and society.

*Or is that the anthropology talking? hmmmm.....


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## natisha

Marlea Warlea said:


> Ok well we're getting off topic I think, basically heres my point: I am NEVER eating meat, EVER. I love horses too much to eat them, it'd be like eating another human.
> And yes, I DO prefer animals to humans, I honestly can't ever understand people (as i have said before) and if spend more then a few hours aroound people I don't love, I get angry and upset.


I hope you're getting some sort of therapy because to be gainfully employed or get along well & happily in life you will be spending a lot of time with people you don't love. That's just the way it is.


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## Marlea Warlea

I do prefer horses to people, no question about it, but I spend time with my family and horsey-friends sometimes.


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## Marlea Warlea

bubba13 said:


> Not kinder than people. Meeker. Prey species. Prefer fright and flight to fight. They don't have the predatory _instincts_ that drive aggression.
> 
> Or, is this a horse exhibiting kindness?
> 
> Nature's Curse... - YouTube
> 
> Before you go on about it being "mercy," keep in mind that this is the foal of a competing stallion, and I think that is a far greater motive. I don't know so much about horses (probably largely because there are no truly wild horses remaining, and ferals just aren't the same deal), but zebra stallions will absolutely kill foals sired by other males so that they can breed with the mare and pass on their own genetic material. This sort of behavior is fairly common among mammals.


Oh god, I feel sick watching that


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## demonwolfmoon

Marlea Warlea said:


> Oh god, I feel sick watching that


It's nature...
I didn't realize that horses would pick something up and shake it, like a dog or cat trying to break their prey's neck.
Guess you learn something every day, right?..... =/


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## Marlea Warlea

True, it just makes me so sick seein that. That poor foal...


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## bubba13

demonwolfmoon said:


> It's nature...
> I didn't realize that horses would pick something up and shake it, like a dog or cat trying to break their prey's neck.
> Guess you learn something every day, right?..... =/


 



















(the story is that the mule killed the cougar, but he didn't--hunters shot it first, then he "attacked" it violently all the same)


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## SarahAnn

I once had a good friend with a stallion. Good boy, good natured, never was abused EVER. He had a great life. Then one day he decided to pick up my friend's 2 year old by the back of her neck and drop her on the barn floor. Right in front of us. I am quite sure he went to the meat factory. 

But he was just being a stallion, and as the video of the stallion and the foals shows, its nature. A horse is a horse, of course. 

Still not sure how I feel about eating horse meat, but there are a lot of valid points that are backed up by FACTS here. What Marlea is using to fuel her argument is pure opinion, disregard, and disrespect. 

You think the Bible is a load of crap? Well, I think all people from Australia are ignorant, selfish, and should be slaughtered. Crikey.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marlea Warlea

Sarah, you think I'm using disrespect? I'm arguing about what I love!

And the bible is not a load of crap whatsoever, and I'm an aussie and yea some aussies are ignorent and selfish, just like some americans are annoying and arrogent. But hey, that's just my opinion


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## SarahAnn

Arrogance is the American way. Maybe if you didn't hate people so much, you would be open to learning a little from them. My posts in the beginning of this thread were quite different. You know what I did? I listened. I considered the points other people were making. I did research. I read. I educated myself. You can only go so far in a debate if you base your entire argument purely on emotion. Its not credible. You should to be more open minded.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## demonwolfmoon

I think you have Marlea mixed up with the other one, SarahAnn.


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## bubba13

Whoopsie-doopsies, my previous post's pictures didn't work at first--I think they're up properly now.



SarahAnn said:


> You think the Bible is a load of crap? Well, I think all people from Australia are ignorant, selfish, and should be slaughtered. Crikey.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


In fairness, it was that other chick, eventerjumpergirl. The I-hate-gorillas one.


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## Marlea Warlea

People have disapointed me before, I'm not changing my opinion and who I am just because some random thinks I have the wrong opinion. That's the good thing about opinions, everyone has one. I stick up fully for animal rights, no matter what the case.


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## SarahAnn

Ohhh ****- my apologies. I was just getting way too heated as the posts went on, I lost track :shock: 

Sorry about the Bible thing Marlea. 

And hey Eventergirl- read what I said to Marlea. :lol:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SarahAnn

Marlea, that's a GOOD thing. I'm not saying that you should change your opinion. I am saying you should read up, find some facts, and fuel your argument with something other then emotion. Emotional debates rarely go anywhere.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## demonwolfmoon

Marlea Warlea said:


> . I stick up fully for animal rights, no matter what the case.


Well Marlea, that's the thing...
so does PETA, and they put down more animals than you'd believe.

What is good for us (opinion wise) is not always good for the animals. I hate to think of all the goldfish in bowls I had as a kid.....knowing now that goldfish actually have much larger water requirements due to waste. I wonder how many, in my ignorance, I consigned to an early death?


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## Marlea Warlea

Maybe so, and maybe I wouldn't be so against it if horses and other animals were only killed when they were sick or injured, and if they got put to sleep with a needle instead of god knows what.


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## MySissyGirl

No....I don't want to eat it....


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## SarahAnn

But then what happens when dumb people start backyard breeding and they are creating perfectly healthy horses, with no where to go? Instead of slaughter you think they should starve to death standing up to their knees in their own crap because no one can afford to care for them? Is that a better alternative to slaughter?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marlea Warlea

Your saying theres an overpopulation of horses right?


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## SarahAnn

Everything I wrote was in the form of a question. I'm not making a statement, I am asking a question. The same question that other members asked me when I was saying "no way people should be eating their horses who love and trust them." It really made me think about what is worse. Neglected, starving horses, or horses that get a quick shot to the head and are gone?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marlea Warlea

1. Horses are killed horribly, when they are shot they are still alive for a few minutes in some cases.

2. There's too many people on earth too, but we don't go around shooting people in the head do we?


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## SarahAnn

Some people do. And just think, all the over populated and starving people can eat all the horse meat that we refuse to eat. And I am sure they would be very grateful for it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bubba13

Marlea Warlea said:


> Maybe so, and maybe I wouldn't be so against it if horses and other animals were only killed when they were sick or injured, and if they got put to sleep with a needle instead of god knows what.


When done properly--and I'm not necessarily saying that slaughter as it currently stands is proper--a single gunshot or captive bolt to the head is actually _more_ humane than an injection of the pink juice.

If you can stomach them, there are some really good videos posted in this thread: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-protection/*warning*-graphic*-pasture-plate-video-105343/



Marlea Warlea said:


> Your saying theres an overpopulation of horses right?


There are very few rational people who would argue that there is _not_ an overpopulation of horses when it comes to demand and supply.


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## SarahAnn

And what's worse? A death that takes a few minutes? Or a slow painful death from starvation (among other illnesses) that could take years!?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marlea Warlea

If the horses are mistreated, they should be taken off their owners by the RSPCA and put up for adoption. Thw owner/breeder should be fined. If the horse is not adopted within a cirtain amount of time then and only then they should be put to sleep humainly.


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## bubba13

Marlea Warlea said:


> 1. Horses are killed horribly, when they are shot they are still alive for a few minutes in some cases.


Not necessarily true. I think that looking at the videos on the thread I posted would do you some good.



> 2. There's too many people on earth too, but we don't go around shooting people in the head do we?


Millions of people starve to death every year. Millions of others die of treatable diseases or injuries because they can't afford or don't have access to health care. And millions more are killed as victims of war, genocide, or murder.


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## Marlea Warlea

I did watch the video, and the horses were shot several times...


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## bubba13

Marlea Warlea said:


> If the horses are mistreated, they should be taken off their owners by the RSPCA and put up for adoption. Thw owner/breeder should be fined. If the horse is not adopted within a cirtain amount of time then and only then they should be put to sleep humainly.


Who is going to foot the bill for this? And what are you going to do with the hundred of tons of rotting horse carcass?


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## bubba13

Marlea Warlea said:


> I did watch the video, and the horses were shot several times...


 
ALL the videos in the thread.


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## Marlea Warlea

Oh my god


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## SarahAnn

Marlea Warlea said:


> If the horses are mistreated, they should be taken off their owners by the RSPCA and put up for adoption. Thw owner/breeder should be fined. If the horse is not adopted within a cirtain amount of time then and only then they should be put to sleep humainly.


The problem with SHOULDs is that there are tons of them. The people that abuse and neglect ANY animal SHOULD be slaughtered. But it isn't so. We can talk about all the things that SHOULD happen, which is exactly where my original argument went, also, but unfortunately they will probably never happen. Horses will still starve, people will still breed horses that won't have homes, and horses will still starve. With or without slaughter. And believe it or not, horses will STILL get slaughtered and EATEN whether it's legal to do so or not :shock:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marlea Warlea

I bloody hate our world. Why can't things just turn out like they should? Why can't everyone live in peace together? Why can't horses be respected by everyone and not killed? Why are ANY animals killed? Why are people starving? Heres my only answer. PEOPLE ARE GREEDY IDIOTIC RETARDS THAT ONLY TAKE TAKE TAKE


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## SarahAnn

Oops. Did I mention horses will still starve? :rofl: I meant horses will still be abused on one of those.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SarahAnn

No, people are animals. A lot of animals eat other animals.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marlea Warlea

And to that I say BLAHH


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## bubba13

Marlea Warlea said:


> I bloody hate our world. Why can't things just turn out like they should? Why can't everyone live in peace together? Why can't horses be respected by everyone and not killed? Why are ANY animals killed? Why are people starving? Heres my only answer. PEOPLE ARE GREEDY IDIOTIC RETARDS THAT ONLY TAKE TAKE TAKE


I'm afraid it's a bit more complicated than that.










This is the least shocking and most inoffensive image I can find. You don't want to see the bad ones....


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## Marlea Warlea

*sigh* This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. These kids look like skeletons. Theres more then enough food to go around.


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## SarahAnn

Marlea Warlea said:


> PEOPLE ARE GREEDY IDIOTIC RETARDS THAT ONLY TAKE TAKE TAKE



Spread the word to end the word.


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## Marlea Warlea

Major tick


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## bubba13

Marlea Warlea said:


> And to that I say BLAHH


Do you have a dog? You do, right? You know that your dog's food is made from the byproducts of slaughtered animals, right? And that your dog would not survive if it did not have meat in its diet?


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## SarahAnn

bubba13 said:


> Do you have a dog? You do, right? You know that your dog's food is made from the byproducts of slaughtered animals, right? And that your dog would not survive if it did not have meat in its diet?


I have not actually researched this, so please correct me if I am wrong. I think horse meat is usually one of the major meat or meat bi products contained in dog food...


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## Marlea Warlea

lol the funnny thing about that is your wrong. Our dogs live on a diet on rice, left over chicken from dinner and veggies.


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## bubba13

Used to be. There's little to none in commercial American dog food now--probably more due to lack of supply than anything else. Beef is cheaper and more readily available.

But horsemeat is by FAR the preferred meat for big cats. The local zoo vet told me that after the US slaughter ban went into effect, a lot of exotic felines died because they couldn't get the right diets.


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## bubba13

Marlea Warlea said:


> lol the funnny thing about that is your wrong. Our dogs live on a diet on rice, left over chicken from dinner and veggies.


Because chicken is definitely not meat. :?


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## Marlea Warlea

Ok I knew I was gonna get pulled up on this. I don't eat chicken, but my family does, I can't do anything about that, I've tried but I can't. It's better for the dogs to eat the remaining chicken then to buy an entire other chicken or something.


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## bubba13

My point was and is that dogs need to eat meat to live. You said that yours doesn't; it eats chicken. Which is meat, thus proving my point...


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## Marlea Warlea

True, but we don't feed our dogs horses...


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## demonwolfmoon

Marlea Warlea said:


> Ok I knew I was gonna get pulled up on this. I don't eat chicken, but my family does, I can't do anything about that, I've tried but I can't. It's better for the dogs to eat the remaining chicken then to buy an entire other chicken or something.


I actually have pet chickens, and they are nice animals.

Dumb as rocks, but really sweet (to US, not eachother...they'll peck each other to death for the pecking order, or just because one is "different). Why do we class some animals deserving to die to feed us, and some as taboo? And by the way, I haven't researched it, but a long time ago, I remember reading that scientists were finding that plants feel pain. Where do you draw the line?

And Marlea...in the places where that pic of the kids was taken, there is NOT enough food to go around. I imagine they'd eat a horse meat no problem.


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## SarahAnn

My foster mother had 2 vegetarian Australian Sheppards. They eat a vegetarian dog food, and lots of cottage cheese. She's a vegan. Which I am sure you could have guessed because it's a total vegan like thing to do to put your dogs on a vegetarian diet. I think it is VERY wrong to do that to a dog. They aren't intended to be vegetarians, and if you can't handle feeding your pet a healthy diet then you shouldn't own one. IMO.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marlea Warlea

Mmm I own a few chickens, I cried my eyes out for a whole day when 'Dribble' got eaten by a fox  Point is, I love all animals, and nothing can change that.


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## demonwolfmoon

Another thought guys:
Respecting life takes on many approaches. So here's the thing to me: IF a horse must be put down, I feel that consuming it is honoring it's life far more than being ripped apart, thrown into a truck and taken to the dump. Or put down with barbituates and thrown into a hole somewhere to poison the groundwater. I feel that if the animal has a spirit, that spirit is gone by that point, and rather than fertilizing plants or poisoning groundwater, maybe the flesh can still do some good elsewhere. To me, that is also respecting the life of the animal.


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## bubba13

demonwolfmoon said:


> I actually have pet chickens, and they are nice animals.


Yep, Marlea, what's the real difference between feeding a chicken or a horse to your dog?



> And by the way, I haven't researched it, but a long time ago, I remember reading that scientists were finding that plants feel pain. Where do you draw the line?


If you can find anything on this, I'd LOVE to see it.



SarahAnn said:


> My foster mother had 2 vegetarian Australian Sheppards. They eat a vegetarian dog food, and lots of cottage cheese. She's a vegan. Which I am sure you could have guessed because it's a total vegan like thing to do to put your dogs on a vegetarian diet. I think it is VERY wrong to do that to a dog. They aren't intended to be vegetarians, and if you can't handle feeding your pet a healthy diet then you shouldn't own one. IMO.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're right--it's not right. I imagine the cheese helps some, but it's still not healthy or good for the dogs. And cats will definitely die of dietary deficiencies if they don't get flesh meat.


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## demonwolfmoon

Marlea Warlea said:


> Mmm I own a few chickens, I cried my eyes out for a whole day when 'Dribble' got eaten by a fox  Point is, I love all animals, and nothing can change that.


No one is trying to change that. They are, however trying to get you to research and use knowledge to debate instead of emotion.


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## bubba13

Marlea Warlea said:


> Mmm I own a few chickens, I cried my eyes out for a whole day when 'Dribble' got eaten by a fox  Point is, I love all animals, and nothing can change that.


Mean ol' nasty fox.


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## Marlea Warlea

Ok, I have researched it, I admit I found some good arguments but nothing, nothing can change my opinion. I'm sticking to my beliefs no matter what.


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## Tianimalz

I'd feed my dogs horse, if it came in a package like beef does and was available and cheaper than the beef I occasionally get them  They'd probably love it.... though my horse likes to get into the dogs food when I'm not looking, that could be awkward. :rofl:


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## demonwolfmoon

bubba13 said:


> And cats will definitely die of dietary deficiencies if they don't get flesh meat.


About the plants, that was a SUPER long time ago, but I'll look. 

And cats will DEF die, they are obligate carnivores. It was my understanding that when you see them chewing grass, it's to make them sick so their stomach feels better?


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## Marlea Warlea

bubba13 said:


> Mean ol' nasty fox.


I know! :-(


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## bubba13

demonwolfmoon said:


> About the plants, that was a SUPER long time ago, but I'll look.


Of interest: Single cell paramecia can _learn_. Discrimination Learning in Paramecia (P. Caudatum)












> And cats will DEF die, they are obligate carnivores. It was my understanding that when you see them chewing grass, it's to make them sick so their stomach feels better?


Dogs will eat grass to soothe their stomachs, so probably.



Marlea Warlea said:


> I know! :-(


You'd have rather the fox starved? He had to eat something, which had to involve killing something...


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## Marlea Warlea

I know, I know, I'm so confused...


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## demonwolfmoon

Marlea Warlea said:


> I know, I know, I'm so confused...


Hm, I imagine so. 

It's normal for us to feel sad when a pet dies.
But:
what do you do when you say you love animals, and you're using emotion only
And you know that the fox needed to eat a chicken (or something else to survive)?

*Can you hate the fox, knowing he caused your bird pain, fear and suffering before she died?*
The bird's death served a purpose, it gave the fox life, maybe helped feed it's babies.
But then...you miss your bird.

So, if you can carry that chain of thought to realizing that people ARE animals too....maybe you can understand why some people choose to eat meat.


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## SorrelHorse

I'm amazed this is still going on. I could have sworn this had already been debated out a million times before.


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## Lonannuniel

Quote:
And by the way, I haven't researched it, but a long time ago, I remember reading that scientists were finding that plants feel pain. Where do you draw the line? 


> If you can find anything on this, I'd LOVE to see it.


"Scientists Prove Plants Feel Pain, Vegans Face Starvation"

^ a short article on the matter


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## bubba13

Hardee-harr-harr, but any non-satire?


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## Lonannuniel

^ lol glad someone got it ;P 

Still in the process of looking around, but thought that gave atleast _some_ info on the matter in the meantime


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## bubba13

I found all kinds of stuff last night, but everyone seems to be making the giant leap of equating chemical/hormonal changes with sentience/awareness. And that's a BIG leap.


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## Lonannuniel

That's what I was also thinking Bubba, does a chemical reaction necessarily mean that they are FEELING pain as we do, or is it more or less an automatic or self survival type response?


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## bubba13

Which is the same argument made by Cartesians to justify allegedly nonexistant animal "suffering"--_they're just automatons; it's just instinct; stimulus/response without awareness...._ 

But at the same time, given the vast anatomical and physiological differences between animals and plants, and the fact that the latter have no nervous system as we know it, I'm not willing to grant them "feeling" until proven otherwise.


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## natisha

demonwolfmoon said:


> I actually have pet chickens, and they are nice animals.
> 
> Dumb as rocks, but really sweet (to US, not eachother...they'll peck each other to death for the pecking order, or just because one is "different). Why do we class some animals deserving to die to feed us, and some as taboo? And by the way, I haven't researched it, but a long time ago, I remember reading that scientists were finding that plants feel pain. Where do you draw the line?
> 
> And Marlea...in the places where that pic of the kids was taken, there is NOT enough food to go around. I imagine they'd eat a horse meat no problem.


Plants do not have a central nervous system therefore cannot feel pain.


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## bubba13

^ Not in the same mechanism that we know, but that does not preclude other physiological possibilities. Jury's still out, and likely will be, well....indefinitely.


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## Faceman

Yeah, pain is not totally a function of the central nervous system anyway...depends upon your definition of pain. Lots of animals have no central nervous system yet respond the same way to a pain stimulus as we do. Response to a pain stimulus does not require a brain or spinal cord - the brain just makes you conscious of the pain. The pain is there whether you are conscious of it or not - sort of like the old saying if a tree falls in the forest and nobodyis around to hear it, did it make any sound?

With plants, who knows? Plants react to stimuli in so many different ways, I suppose it is possible, although personally I doubt it...


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