# Gelding a horse at home.



## franknbeans

I would be calling the authorities. This is cruelty to me too, and I really hope this is not true. Sickening.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Siiiigh......this actually is a lot more common than you think. I wouldn't allow it to be done to one of my horses but I don't think it's illegal either. At least not here in OK.


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## wyominggrandma

Not illegal in Wyoming either. Its their horses, they can geld it anyway they want.


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## Saddlebag

A good horseman can lay a horse down without those barbaric methods.


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## Zexious

I would think it would be illegal. Wyominggrandma posted "they can geld it anyway they want". What, then, would stop someone who is abusing an animal from saying "I can reprimand any way I want"?

To me, this is sick. No pain killers? Seriously? You would think the men working would at least have that much sympathy.

Anyway, I would definitely call the authorities. The worst that can happen is they say there is nothing they can do... And at least you would know that you did something.


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## wyominggrandma

Banding bull calves, sheep, goats etc are considered cruel by some people, yet it is done daily on farms and ranches. 
Is it humane? No. I bet you check into your state laws, you will find out it is legal and people are allowed to do as they want with their own animals.


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## Hang on Fi

That makes me squirm and I don't even have that equipment. 

I "have" heard people castrating bulls by tying a string around their "boys" until they essentially "fall off." 

I guess some people want to save a buck. I wouldn't even have the personal confidence to take it upon myself to geld a horse.


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## SlideStop

I say that is NOTHING short of abuse, torture or ! Performing an operation with out any type of anesthesia or pain medication. Then breaking them out right after the operation!?
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## MissAllySunshine

I actually did call the authorities and nothing was done...my "friend" and her husband said that this method of gelding their horses is good for them, it teaches the horse to respect them...i've trained with natural methods my whole life and i know there are better ways to achieve respect with your horses.


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## Endiku

Its very legal here in Texas as well, and it was done at the farm where I used to volunteer. I find it sick and cruel, and there is a MUCH higher risk of infection, complications, proud cutting, etc., but there isn't much that can be done about it. They had one very nice gelding die very shortly after gelding though because he was done incorrectly. It was incredibly sad.


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## beau159

franknbeans said:


> I would be calling the authorities. This is cruelty to me too, and I really hope this is not true. *Sickening*.


Agree. That sounds just sickening. 

The next time that lady and her husband need a surgical procedure done, let's just tie them up, and administer no anesthetic and no pain killers, and just _CUT_ into them. 

See how they like torture. 

I can't imagine a more cruel thing you can do to an animal than purposefully inflict *pain* on them like that, when there is a much more comfortable way to do it.


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## stevenson

cruel. i dont know the law here, but odds are it is legal.


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## Kotori

Hang on Fi said:


> That makes me squirm and I don't even have that equipment.
> 
> *I "have" heard people castrating bulls by tying a string around their "boys" until they essentially "fall off." *
> 
> *I guess some people want to save a buck.* I wouldn't even have the personal confidence to take it upon myself to geld a horse.


If your talking about banding, it is actually one of two vet-approved castration methods. Banding, a super strong band is put around the balls, and they wither and fall off; a tourniquet. Using a Burdizzo, they have to pin the animal, pry it's legs apart, and crush each cord. Its not just a matter of saving a buck- no incision, less chance for infection. If it wasn't for how tight to the body they're held, horses would be treated this way too.

Other little 'fun fact'- in the sheep world, cryptos are intentionally made by pushing the balls up and banding below it. They're used as teasers.

(I know way too much about animal balls...:lol


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## Hang on Fi

That I didn't know  Thank you for clarifying (Honestly!) I had only heard about it, never knew how it really worked. Sounded painful, but, it certainly makes it much easier on lowering hanging critters!

Never knew they intentional created crypts though! Interesting!


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## Cherie

We have castrated our own horses for about 40 years. We have never had an infection or a bleeder. I have a very good set of emasculators and have never had a problem with yearlings up to 10 and 12 year old studs. We lay them down and have never had a problem with a single one of them.

After my arthritis got bad, I lost my dexterity and nearly cut my arm off, so I had the Vet out to do 4 or 5 of them. One nearly bled to death and one got so infected I had to open him up twice. He was so bad, we had to lay him down the second time and completely open him up and enlarge the original incision. She did not open him up far enough the first time and he closed over.

After that, I made a deal with a cowboy that lives 1/2 miles from us. I furnish the sterilized emasculators, the 'know-how' and a sharp sterile knife and he helps us do it. We do any he has art the same time. We have done this for about 6 or 7 years now. I repeat -- we have never had one infected, proud cut or injured in any way. 

Horses are livestock. Like cattle and other livestock, they handle just fine working them like other livestock. We lay them down and never have a problem with that, either. It is all in knowing what you are doing. 

I learned to do this and other surgical procedures when I lived 75 miles or farther from my Vet. All I can say, if you want to use a Vet for everything, that is your business. If we, or other ranchers, do not need one for everything, that is ours. I use Vets for many things but routine things like castrations is just not one of them.


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## Incitatus32

Speaking from a purely clinical standpoint (or at least as much of one as I can manage because that disgusts me) I've seen something similar here a few times. I do believe that this is cruelty, no if and's or buts. Without any sort of local anesthetic or sedation plus the fact that they are tying a horse up and using that method to lie a horse down is not humane nor is it sensible in the slightest. I for one would be up the authorities AND the owners behinds like there was no tomorrow. Also I don't think that it teaches respect in the slightest. In my experience doing a procedure even in a good way does not endear or make the animal respect you in the slightest. Work with the animal does. 

IMO they're going to get a horse or themselves killed when this goes awry. Seems to me like they've been pretty lucky to not have a horse bleed or fall out when they're doing their 'training' (and I've seen that happen, not pretty). 

When a similar method was common around here we had four different people get killed. I do believe the common death blow was the horse fighting back and kicking the crap out of them. They'd all been "Doing this for years" and "It worked always".

Cherie: I for one have no problem using your method. None at all. In all actuality that's the method most of my vets and/or my bosses use. The main problem I have with this (and maybe I've read the OP wrong and grant it I'm not there) is not using the proper equipment and not having the proper knowledge of how to do it and the after care. (Not talking about a degree but just a simple "I was trained how by someone who knew what they were doing) I've seen some pretty hack jobs by individuals who had been doing this their 'whole life'.


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## COWCHICK77

Like Cherie, my husband cuts our horses. I have said it here on HF before and I will say it again, my husband does a better job than most vets. Like Cherie, never had an issue with bleeding or infection and heals faster than most vets jobs. 

We don't do like the OP described but they do get roped and laid down which is a hell of a lot safer than stretching between trees.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DraftOn

My honest opinion, I see no problem with people cutting their own Horses. I do however, believe that it needs to be done in a humane way.I know alot of people who would rather do it! Shoot, if I wasn't scared i would mess it up I would do it myself. Vets are not perfect and aren't quite needed for every scratch that appears on an animal. 

its true..... Horses are livestock, just like cows and goats....but none of these animals should be cut in a cruel way.....yet people still do it. Such a shame :/
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## paintedpastures

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-health/leaking-incision-months-after-gelding-336610/

Trouble like horse in this thread:-(


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## SlideStop

I find it hard do believe that a vet who has done this procedure likely thousands of times has a lower infection or bleeding rate then "do it yourselfers". 

People get pain and anesthesia ALL the time for things that don't seem as invasive as this. Having a superficial lesion removed usually involves lidocaine. I watch a circumcision in school, that baby got 4-5cc of lidocaine around the penis area. Women with tears after childbirth also get local anesthesia to the area before they stitch it together. Hell, even HORSES get numbed up for sutures!! These are VERY minor procedures compared to having you scrotum cut open and your testicles ripped out. 

This isn't the 1800's. We have medication to prevent pain, make someone comfortable and to prevent medication. Not taking advantage of theses really is down right cruel!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SlideStop

http://m.youtube.com/watch?sts=1608...has_verified=1&layout=mobile&client=mv-google

Looks like a real pleasant experience!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## stevenson

I use a Vet. I think some anes and being doped up for this procedure is the humane way .
Just how would you feel getting a vasectomy without any pain meds ? No more cruel than doing it to a horse w/o meds.


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## COWCHICK77

SlideStop said:


> I find it hard do believe that a vet who has done this procedure likely thousands of times has a lower infection or bleeding rate then "do it yourselfers".
> 
> People get pain and anesthesia ALL the time for things that don't seem as invasive as this. Having a superficial lesion removed usually involves lidocaine. I watch a circumcision in school, that baby got 4-5cc of lidocaine around the penis area. Women with tears after childbirth also get local anesthesia to the area before they stitch it together. Hell, even HORSES get numbed up for sutures!! These are VERY minor procedures compared to having you scrotum cut open and your testicles ripped out.
> 
> This isn't the 1800's. We have medication to prevent pain, make someone comfortable and to prevent medication. Not taking advantage of theses really is down right cruel!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It may be hard to believe, but yes, I would trust my husband over a vet for cutting colts. I have seen my husband cut hundreds just in the time that we have been together, not sure how many he has done before that.
He used to cut colts for a few stock contractors and our ranch raised colts. I have worked in training barns on and off through my career and seen plenty of colts cut by vets. Seen more complications from vet jobs.
I am not talking out my ***, just speaking from my experience.


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## usandpets

I use a vet. I watched one gelding take place by a vet and that was enough. I don't even like cleaning fish that have been caught. Maybe if I grew up on a farm or hunted, it might be a different story. If I was transported back in time where hunting meant survival, I would be dead.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SlideStop

Regardless of the outcomes, you don't think there is a better way to do it for your horses sake? If it was easier or quicker don't you think the vet would be doing it that way? 

I really can't see any vet, money aside, who would condone gelding without anesthesia.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## smrobs

Something else to consider, ya'll. Sometimes the horse that needs gelding (and needs gelding NOW) may not be gentle enough for a vet to administer anesthesia.

Personally, I have no problem at all with folks gelding their own so long as they know what they're doing but since I trust my vets and don't begrudge the bill for the rare occasion I need one gelded (and I have the time to get them trained enough to stand for the shots), I just have them do it.

Some of you may remember the herd of feral horses that we captured last year about this time, the herd where I got my little filly? There were 5 or 6 mature studs in that herd and several weanling/yearling colts. They were going directly to a broker and, likely, to a slaughter house...but the transporters won't transport studs or recently gelded animals. It needed done quickly, no time for training.

The only other option besides using ropes and good stock horses to lay them down was to squeeze them up into a chute and try to give a thrashing horse a shot of anesthetic. If they had tried that, they likely would have had several bleed out from having the vein in their neck shredded by the needle while the vet tried to give the shot.

Cattle are cut without anesthesia all the time, thousands are handled that way every year on ranches all across the country. That's the way it's been for over 200 years. Horses are no different. IMHO, people just get all squirmy because horses are "pets" and cattle aren't *shrugs*.


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## COWCHICK77

Cattle and horses have a much higher pain threshold than humans.

I do not cut horses as it is slightly different than doing bull calves, but from cutting my fair share of bull calves I found the worst part of it is actually cutting the bottom of the sack off not the process itself.


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## SlideStop

And they didn't have a difficult time with laying a 100% alert horse in survival mode and cutting his testicle open then ripping them out? One little needle would of sent them over the edge? 

I don't agree with castrating live stock medication-less either. Smaller animals I can under stand, they can be taken off with one quick snip. 

My solution? Well I don't know, I'm not a vet and I'm not a rancher. I just don't see the point in trying to save a dollar when your horses comfort is at stake.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SlideStop

COWCHICK77 said:


> Cattle and horses have a much higher pain threshold than humans.


How exactly do you know that? Animals are stoic by nature, it doesn't mean they have a higher pain tolerance. Nature tells them to act that way so they don't get eaten.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## smrobs

SlideStop said:


> And they didn't have a difficult time with laying a 100% alert horse in survival mode and cutting his testicle open then ripping them out? One little needle would of sent them over the edge?
> 
> I don't agree with castrating live stock medication-less either. Smaller animals I can under stand, they can be taken off with one quick snip.
> 
> My solution? Well I don't know, I'm not a vet and I'm not a rancher. I just don't see the point in trying to save a dollar when your horses comfort is at stake.


 
It's not about the needle, it's about trying to put the needle into a very large vein on a part of the animal that it's impossible to immobilize without choking them. You can't keep the horse from flinging his head around, but if you put a rope around the front feet and another rope around the backs and stretch him out gently, then he simply lays over on his side and nobody is going to get kicked or trampled. The horse isn't going to get more seriously hurt because he can't squirm around or move his body at a bad moment. It's not _easy_, but it's a lot safer for everyone involved, including the horse.

As for just trying to save a buck, there's a _lot_ more to it than that. You have to remember that this practice is most common in situations where there are multiple animals needing cut. Maybe an entire herd. $100 a pop is no big deal to me because I've only had to do it every couple of years to a single horse. However, if I needed 30-50+ horses gelded this spring, that's a _lot_ of money.

As for cattle, well, when I was working calves on one of the smallest ranches in this part of the country, we'd commonly cut 500+ calves in a weekend. Not exactly feasible to pay for anesthetic without the price of doing business, and therefore the price of meat, skyrocketing.


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## COWCHICK77

SlideStop said:


> How exactly do you know that? Animals are stoic by nature, it doesn't mean they have a higher pain tolerance. Nature tells them to act that way so they don't get eaten.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Actually they are quite expressive, you just have to know what to look for.


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## SlideStop

IV isn't the only way to give a sedative :wink:. 

Like I said... I don't know a practical solution to making it cost effective and less painful for the animal. But the horses well being and comfort goes along with the responsibility of owning, farming, breeding, etc. 

IMO if your going to geld one of your horses at home with no pain medication or anesthetic it's simply to save a dollar. If your vet has a high infection rate (which isn't always the vets fault. Maybe infections happen after the fact.) maybe it's time to find a new vet. I can't think of a single reason why any horse, or animal, should go through being cut open and having body parts ripped out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## smrobs

I'm not being combative, just curious. How, exactly, would _you_ go about giving a 12 year old completely feral stud enough sedative to knock him out to geld him....and how much would it cost you?


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## SlideStop

COWCHICK77 said:


> Actually they are quite expressive, you just have to know what to look for.


Frequently their body language isn't congruent with what's actually happening. My dog was in a lot of pain when he had ostioscarcoma. There was a tumor growing from the inside out of bone. He acted happy although there was no way he was comfortable. The vet was impressed how well he was coping because he knew he should be in fencing amount of pain. The last straw was when he actually started to show signs a pain. Just because an animal isn't freaking out doesn't mean he isn't in pain.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SlideStop

smrobs said:


> I'm not being combative, just curious. How, exactly, would _you_ go about giving a 12 year old completely feral stud enough sedative to knock him out to geld him....and how much would it cost you?


They seem to be able to tranquilize big cats, rhinos, elephants. It probably would have been safer then stretching him out alone. 

Like I said, I don't have the solution to the cost situation. But if it were my personal horse id make him as comfortable as possible.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## smrobs

I don't know _anyone_ in my area, vets included, who have tranq guns.

Well, that's not quite true, the game warden has one but it would be illegal to ask him to come tranq a horse for me.

Either way, even if my vets did have one, we're still running into the cost part of it. Those studs I was talking about earlier, they brought anywhere from $75 to $200 each for meat. Even if they had been my horses (which they weren't), I wouldn't have been willing to spend $100+ on each of them for a vet gelding via tranq gun. Instead, they likely would have gotten a bullet.

Harsh, I know, but true.


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## SlideStop

Let's say the drugs are free. Even if you can't get a tranq gun, you still managed to catch and lay down a 1,000+ feral animal. A quick injection to the neck, shoulder or rump is all it would of taken. <br />
<br />
I think that circumstance is pretty extreme, probably not a good example. These horses had no owner, if I remember correctly? No one to actually pay for the costs or give a toot about what did or didn't happen to them. Correct me if I'm wrong. <br />
<br />
Smrobs, would you geld your personal animals this way?

Also, I'm 100% with you. A bullet probably would have been kinder. <br />
<font size="1"><i>Posted via Mobile Device</i></font>


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## smrobs

If I was gelding 5-10+ and had someone who knew what they were doing, yes.

But as I said, since I only geld a single animal on occasion and I trust my vets, then I have no reason to _not_ use them.


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## COWCHICK77

SlideStop said:


> Frequently their body language isn't congruent with what's actually happening. My dog was in a lot of pain when he had ostioscarcoma. There was a tumor growing from the inside out of bone. He acted happy although there was no way he was comfortable. The vet was impressed how well he was coping because he knew he should be in fencing amount of pain. The last straw was when he actually started to show signs a pain. Just because an animal isn't freaking out doesn't mean he isn't in pain.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
An animal doesn't have to be freaking out to show pain, the signs can be much more subtle. The key is being able to read your animals.


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## SlideStop

COWCHICK77 said:


> An animal doesn't have to be freaking out to show pain, the signs can be much more subtle. The key is being able to read your animals.


Regardless, you still don't know the pain threshold of these animals. Not to mention pain isn't a one size fits all deal. What's painful to me may be excruciating to another and not painful at all to another. Since horses cannot self report and they are darn good at hiding pain you really have no way to tell exactly how much pain they are in.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SlideStop

Would it be signs like this!? 

Graphic! The absolutely horrible castration of hackney pony stallion Camo - YouTube

The owner said, of the description was done by the real owner, that he had sedation, local and was twitched. You can't tell me the horse can tolerate the pain when you have to lay him down and hog tie him to do the procedure... or the them to a tree, stretch them out, whatever the mechanism of restraint is. 

IMO it part of the responsibility that goes along with owning a horse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## COWCHICK77

SlideStop said:


> Regardless, you still don't know the pain threshold of these animals. Not to mention pain isn't a one size fits all deal. What's painful to me may be excruciating to another and not painful at all to another. Since horses cannot self report and they are darn good at hiding pain you really have no way to tell exactly how much pain they are in.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I will agree that pain threshold is different between animals, some are more tolerant than others. But cattle and horses, as a whole, have a higher threshold than humans.

Something to consider.... while it seems like a better idea to sedate everything, it just isn't practical in all situations. Like smrobs said, running something into a chute is more stressful then roping and laying it down whether to doctor, castrate, brand, vaccinate..etc. 5 minutes and its a done deal back to eating with roping. To run something into corrals, into a chute, medicate and doctor is more stressful, time consuming and keeping whatever animal it is from eating, being happy and pumping it with un-necessary medication.
That is why we do what we do. If the animal doesn't thrive and do well we don't get paid and it is a reflection on our abilities. Poor abilities show in poor animal condition.

Come look at our horse herd, we have 20+ year old ranch horses that look like horses half their age and making big circles. 
Look at how our calves do at the sale, we sent some four weights that brought well over $2 at the local sale, not a video sale....if you want to tack on sedation/painkillers on top that price can you imagine what your beef cost would be to you?


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## SlideStop

I don't doubt for a second all your animals are happy and healthy. I believe you on that. 

And again, I don't have the solution to an effective, low cost, castration system. As for your everyday animals... I do not think there is any excuse to not make your animal comfortable. 

As for the pain, I really don't see how you can prove that. It only sounds like a way to justify why your doing a surgical procedure on a fully awake and alert animal. 

As for the restraint, I'm not really concerned how you do it, but the sheer fact that you need to restrain the animal means it's clearly something that causes the animal a decent amount of pain. Then to cause the pain and not aide in its relief... Seems a bit cruel.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## COWCHICK77

Using that same theory, haltering a horse to saddle it would be assuming it is in pain.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rideordie112

COWCHICK77 said:


> Using that same theory, haltering a horse to saddle it would be assuming it is in pain.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Restraining a horse to perform a surgery while it's awake, and haltering to saddle are basically two different worlds. And cannot be compared.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## COWCHICK77

Rideordie112 said:


> Restraining a horse to perform a surgery while it's awake, and haltering to saddle are basically two different worlds. And cannot be compared.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How's that? 
Haltering, hobbling, roping, tying, all are forms of restraint.
So by that theory if you need to restrain a horse it must mean its in pain.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## churumbeque

wyominggrandma said:


> Banding bull calves, sheep, goats etc are considered cruel by some people, yet it is done daily on farms and ranches.
> Is it humane? No. I bet you check into your state laws, you will find out it is legal and people are allowed to do as they want with their own animals.


Banding is a lot different then getting slashed up with a knife


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## SlideStop

COWCHICK77 said:


> How's that?
> Haltering, hobbling, roping, tying, all are forms of restraint.
> So by that theory if you need to restrain a horse it must mean its in pain.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Because is not the actually restraint causing the pain or mean it in pain. I've had to restrain horses for things way less painful. Shots, sheath cleaning, bandage cleaning, etc. 
I'd say horses who couldn't tolerate those "procedures" are the exception, not the rule. Not to mention its a pretty reasonable discomfort. Your going to put you child under general anesthesia for a hep B booster. But I bet if a doctor amputated an ear, finger, toe, etc, because they "don't want to pump so and so full of drugs" and "thought it would be fast this way" they'd probably find themselves in hot water.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wyominggrandma

churumbeque said:


> Banding is a lot different then getting slashed up with a knife


 Excuse me, while I know you seem to think you know everything, I commented about banding because it is done everyday on ranches and farms and some consider it a way of daily ranch work with livestock.
Horses to many are considered livestock and treat them as such for gelding, just like banding, removing horns, etc.
Nowhere did I say anything about is being the same as gelding a horse without anesthetic.


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## boots

SlideStop said:


> But I bet if a doctor amputated an ear, finger, toe, etc, because they "don't want to pump so and so full of drugs" and "thought it would be fast this way" they'd probably find themselves in hot water.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 You'd be surprised, then, to find out that there are situations where a doctor has to do procedures without anesthetics for medical reason. But that's an apple to oranges comparison, too.

Banding vs surgical castration? I prefer surgical on all my calves. Much quicker. Heals quicker. And, in my observations, causes briefer discomfort for the animal.

Castration on a horse without anesthetic? There are differences between gelding a young horse and castrating a few weeks old calf. I could do it, and would if absolutely necessary, but only because I am very, very quick.
And only if there was no way to keep a horse safe while it came out of the anesthetic. And the range and weather conditions were optimal. Lots to consider.

wyominggrandma - I do think castration, even by banding, is humane. Steers have much more peaceful lives than bulls. 

churumbeque - Surgical castration is not getting "slashed up with a knife." Goodness! One cut at the bottom of the scrotum. Thugs slash livings things with knives, not those who care for animals!


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## SlideStop

Yeah, the situations where they preform procedures without anesthesia it's an EMERGENCY. Typically those people aren't conscious to begin with. Again, apples and oranges.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Zexious

I'm not sure where or not this is off topic but, for my own knowledge, I am curious about the laws in my state. Where would I go about finding those?

I first googled "Laws about gelding a horse in Colorado" and, as would be expected, a bunch of definitions for 'gelding' came up.
I then searched "laws about castrating a horse in Colorado" and the only thing I could find pertained to loose horses o.o


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## SlideStop

Zexious said:


> I'm not sure where or not this is off topic but, for my own knowledge, I am curious about the laws in my state. Where would I go about finding those?
> 
> I first googled "Laws about gelding a horse in Colorado" and, as would be expected, a bunch of definitions for 'gelding' came up.
> I then searched "laws about castrating a horse in Colorado" and the only thing I could find pertained to loose horses o.o


I would assume it would be the same as your livestock law. You could also ask your vet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Zexious

^I'll have to do that. Thanks!


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## SlideStop

Zexious said:


> ^I'll have to do that. Thanks!


I'd be interested to know a vets opinion on the subject! Do tell when you ask 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CowboyBob

As for pain tolerance in animals, I don't know if they have a higher pain tolerance or not. What I have seen, is that they process pain differently. I can say that because I have seen a horse with a broken leg limping around in a pasture when we found him he was eating and acting "normal" the only way we knew there was a problem was because he was limping. I have seen horses with Massive cuts on different parts of the body and they are fine they are out in the pasture eating and acting "normal" where with people if I had a similar injury I would be in real trouble. 

As for gelding a horse, I would not do it my self even with the know how. If I had a large number of them to do and the know how I would strongly consider doing them myself. But for one, I would take them to the vet. 

That being said you all know that its not been that many years ago and before there was pain meds. people would geld there own horses all the time and no one ever would have been angered to the point of wishing that the person would be forced to have surgery with out pain meds. 
I am more shocked by some of you and the anger and hatred that has been shared about people you don't even know. 

Is it better to use pain meds. and Vet? YES by all means Yes.
Did the people chose the best way to geld there horse? In my opinion. NO
Do I think less of them? NO
Did they do anything wrong? I would say no, but I would say,they could have done it better.


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## wyominggrandma

check with your state veterinarian. He/she will know the laws about it.


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## COWCHICK77

churumbeque said:


> Banding is a lot different then getting slashed up with a knife


"slashed up with a knife".... 
Try banding your next colt and tell me how that works out.



SlideStop said:


> Because is not the actually restraint causing the pain or mean it in pain. I've had to restrain horses for things way less painful. Shots, sheath cleaning, bandage cleaning, etc.
> I'd say horses who couldn't tolerate those "procedures" are the exception, not the rule. Not to mention its a pretty reasonable discomfort. Your going to put you child under general anesthesia for a hep B booster. But I bet if a doctor amputated an ear, finger, toe, etc, because they "don't want to pump so and so full of drugs" and "thought it would be fast this way" they'd probably find themselves in hot water.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You said-
"As for the restraint, I'm not really concerned how you do it, but the sheer fact that you need to restrain the animal means it's clearly something that causes the animal a decent amount of pain. Then to cause the pain and not aide in its relief... Seems a bit cruel."
To me, by your explanation that means if a restraint is used then it must be painful. So I guess I am confused.


And I think you understand by what I mean a "faster way".
A faster procedure means less stress on the animal. When you stress an animal, especially cattle, you increase their chance of getting sick. Therefor having to doctor which means more drugs and more stress. 

I am not saying everyone should go outside and try cutting their own colts or calves. For most people the vet is the best or only option. I choose my husband given our situation.


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## SlideStop

COWCHICK77 said:


> "slashed up with a knife"....
> Try banding your next colt and tell me how that works out.
> 
> 
> 
> You said-
> "As for the restraint, I'm not really concerned how you do it, but the sheer fact that you need to restrain the animal means it's clearly something that causes the animal a decent amount of pain. Then to cause the pain and not aide in its relief... Seems a bit cruel."
> To me, by your explanation that means if a restraint is used then it must be painful. So I guess I am confused.


My point what that if you need to lay a horse down, stretch him out with ropes, have someone sit on them, etc so they don't kick your head off its because they are/will be in pain. Those are some pretty extreme measures. I would 100% be a believer that horses have a high tolerance for pain and gelding without sedation is ok if someone could show me a video (or in person) of a horse with no sedation and no ropes (just halter and a maybe a chain) just stood there for that kind of procedure. Handler, halter, chain, scalpel and emasculator... I'd put my money on that never happening, because no horse would ever do it. 




COWCHICK77 said:


> I think you understand by what I mean a "faster way".
> A faster procedure means less stress on the animal. When you stress an animal, especially cattle, you increase their chance of getting sick. Therefor having to doctor which means more drugs and more stress.
> 
> I am not saying everyone should go outside and try cutting their own colts or calves. For most people the vet is the best or only option. I choose my husband given our situation.


I think were just going to have to agree to disagree. I think it's awful nieve to think animal can handle the pain because they are animals. I really do get the need for a cost effective method of gelding, and like I said, I don't have all the answers. I wish I did. But to do it for one or 10 horses, I just don't think thats fair. How much is gelding? $150? I'm sure your vet could cut you a deal. Either way, if your breeding horses and you end up with all colts it *still* your responsibility to get it done. Thats the roll of the dice you take. 

Again, I'm sure all your animals are happy (except when their scrotums are being extracted and the testicles without a drop of something to take the edge off) and healthy. Obviously it works for you and I can't fault you for that.


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## CheyRider

SlideStop, I'm absolutely with you on this whole topic. Surgery without anesthesia sounds horrible, and there should be no economic reason for cruelty. Here, there is no such thing as castration without pain meds on horses, luckily - however, male piglets are still castrated this way, and they do show all kinds of pain symptoms. Times are changing, though, and even piglets are now often given pain medication before castration. 
It amazes me how people can just claim animals feel little pain during the procedure, it reminds me of scientists of former times who took apart live animals, explaining all signs of pain as mere mechanical reactions... heck, even young babies used to be treated without pain management because doctors believed they felt little to no pain until they were older... 
I do believe that short term pain might sometimes be better for the animal than longer periods of stress. But for domesticated horses, at least, the act of sedating won't be particularly stressful. As far as undomesticated horses are concerned, I'm sure while they are held down and immobilized for the procedure (stressful in itself), one could also give them a shot for the pain.


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## COWCHICK77

SlideStop said:


> My point what that if you need to lay a horse down, stretch him out with ropes, have someone sit on them, etc so they don't kick your head off its because they are/will be in pain. Those are some pretty extreme measures. I would 100% be a believer that horses have a high tolerance for pain and gelding without sedation is ok if someone could show me a video (or in person) of a horse with no sedation and no ropes (just halter and a maybe a chain) just stood there for that kind of procedure. Handler, halter, chain, scalpel and emasculator... I'd put my money on that never happening, because no horse would ever do it.
> 
> Okay, I get what your saying.
> I will not claim that the procedure is pain free. I guess I hard time understanding since I don't compare horses or cattle to humans. The use of roping a horse(or bull calf) and stretching them out, while it may seem extreme to you, is the same reason a vet uses sedation-safety.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think were just going to have to agree to disagree. I think it's awful nieve to think animal can handle the pain because they are animals. I really do get the need for a cost effective method of gelding, and like I said, I don't have all the answers. I wish I did. But to do it for one or 10 horses, I just don't think thats fair. How much is gelding? $150? I'm sure your vet could cut you a deal. Either way, if your breeding horses and you end up with all colts it *still* your responsibility to get it done. Thats the roll of the dice you take.
> 
> Again, I'm sure all your animals are happy (except when their scrotums are being extracted and the testicles without a drop of something to take the edge off) and healthy. Obviously it works for you and I can't fault you for that.


I too agree to disagree and yes, our animals are happy and taken care of. I don't think any horse would complain about running loose on thousand acre meadows, fit and sassy 
Our horse program is a bit different than what the general population does. Our horses run loose on the desert and meadows until they are brought in to get wean/cut/vaccinated/brand. At this point they have never seen a human, if so it was at a distance. Hence the reason for roping and doing things the way we do. (Don't know of many vets that is itching to make the drive out here to deal with that.) Some think this traumatizes a colt but I dare someone to pick out the horses in our herd that were untouched then handled in that manner as opposed to the bought horses that may have been raised and handled from birth.


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## SlideStop

:shock: I don't think I could fathom thousands of acres!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## trailhorserider

Two hundred years ago on a big ranch, I could understand horses being castrated without anesthetic. There was simply no better way.

But at this day in age, you don't have to do a surgical procedure on a horse without anesthetic. So why not save the animal from suffering?

I bet a couple hundred years ago they did tooth extractions on people without anesthetic too. But would we go to a dentist that did that today?

I don't understand the lack of empathy for a fellow living being. 

If it HAS to be done that way, that's really unfortunate. But if you have a choice, why not have empathy for the animal and save them some stress and pain during a serious medical procedure?


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## KigerQueen

IF I had to NOT have a vet do a castration i would at least give the horse bute. Its not a sedative but good god im not that cruel. If you are dealing with feral animals and 50+ ok, I completely understand. But if you have only say 5? I think you can at least bute them. I understand they are considered livestock, but just because we CAN do something dose not mean we SHOULD. I CAN beat the ever loving snot out of my mare and use a spiked bit, and crank her head to her chest, but i SHOULD not. I (proverbial) CAN castrate a small number of horses without paint killers but I SHOULD give them at least bute (I never have seen a horse castrated without a vet so I don't have personal experience). Its like getting your teeth drilled without pain killers some can handle it (Me to an extent) but if started to hurt you would be given something. Bute is not that expansive, and it should be cost effective for a small number of horses.


As to braking the horses without letting them heal that is @#$% up. Im sorry but using and animals pain as a training tool is beyond cruel. You already cut his nuts off while he was well aware of it, at least let him heal.


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