# People who think everything is "abuse"



## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

It's like parents who refuse to discipline their kids then wonder why they are such little horrors.

It's a bigger picture issue which allows me to not get so upset about it.

And...the boy who cried wolf.

Definitely is overdone though, but go bridle your horse and go for a nice hack


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

my guess is that they see an easy mark in terms of antagonizing someone to argue with them, or post rebuttals that are amusing. nothing will get a horse person to respond with more power than to accuse them of abuse. so, could it be trolling?


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## LifeInTheIrons (Mar 28, 2015)

I don't think it's trolling. A lot of these people have hundreds of posts and such about "horse abuse". They seem to love horses, but not know a lot about them and what it is actually like to own one. A lot of them speak about "when I get a horse, I'll let it do whatever it wants and NEVER put a bit in its mouth." So a lot are just uneducated. Still makes me crazy though, that they don't do their research and stuff. It's a pet peeve of mine . I need to learn to be more forgiving.


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## Roman (Jun 13, 2014)

Omg yes!! I have seen so many people say they hate showing and would never do it because people who show only want to win a ribbon, money, cause pain to the horse, and generally do not care about their horses. 

Bits are so bad yet they refuse to say and believe bitless causes pain. I saw a picture that had two horses, one had a bit and looked like it was yawning, or making trying get away from the bit, I don't know, but I wanna say it was yawning. The second horse, the rider was bareback and in a rope halter I believe, the horse had his neck collected at a standstill and you could definitely tell it was forced. The horse just looked unhappy, not relaxed, and forced into that position. 

I've had people tell me my horse is so unhappy because I ride in a bit, sometimes correct him. One guy said he was on my side about the grazing muzzle but clearly he wasn't as he was trying to make me get rid of it. Hello people, I cannot ride EVERY day. 

These kind of people just make me mad sometimes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Saskia (Aug 26, 2009)

I see that stuff online but to date I have never met someone with such extreme and out of touch views in person.

Its likely just a small amount of people who aren't that into horses that think these things. 

I'm fairly into animal welfare and probably more radically left than a lot people on here, and although I see stuff like this online, in forums etc I have never met someone strongly advocating this in person.

People do and say all weird stuff online, but the real world people are surprisingly normal and mild.


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## Mulefeather (Feb 22, 2014)

A lot of people are exactly like that - they love horses and seemingly view them as these perfect, extraordinarily fragile creatures that never get tired, bored, want to do something else, or think they don't get disrespectful or dangerous sometimes. I meet a lot of these people in daily life. For them, meeting a real horse is like meeting a unicorn. 

File under "Possibly Insane" with a cross-reference to "inexperience".


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## KsKatt (Jun 2, 2014)

Sound like hard core PETA.


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

People like to see worst case scenarios and they like to assume. I've used bits, martingales, hobbles, chains, whips, spurs, overchecks, etc and I get comments constantly about how 'cruel' I am. Just today someone in real life proceeded to tell me how I was an inept rider because my gelding needs a german martingale + bit that's up high (his preference, not mine). And when they looked in where my stud colt was he was wearing hobbles and had a backpad + crupper on (their problem was that he was ONLY 2 years old)......

I'm pretty sure these people are kooku for cocoa puffs because if there's any overly spoiled rotten, in need of a good smack now and again it's my horses! :rofl: 

A picture is a moment of time, a video is a small piece of the puzzle. I typically reserve all 'abuse' judgments until I PERSONALLY see or know the situation. I don't know the rider and I don't know the horse. I'd love for my gelding to go without his bit jacked up in his mouth and without a martingale..... but he likes the contact and that's how he works best. (Now obvious things like soring or similar stuff is a different situation haha).


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

In the Southern United States, we have a simple way to deal with these folks. We simply say "Well, bless your heart Darlin'." And go on about our business. They ain't worth the head ache.


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## arabbarrelracer (Jun 2, 2015)

My friend bought a mare off some people, they didn't use a saddle on her because it was harsh. They didn't use a bit either. No shoes. No grain. No winter blankets, no shelter. No hay. Nothing that they wouldn't have in the wild....

we rode the horse who new nothing...She had tons of bad habits because telling her no would hurt her precious feelings!!!

I agree with you.
My horse wears a bit, a saddle , winter blankets, fly sheets, shoes. He is happy and does whatever I ask of him.


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## MaximasMommy (Sep 21, 2013)

There are literally people who will not eat honey because it exploits bees.

So there you go.


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## DreaMy (Jul 1, 2014)

The easiest way I explain this to people is that they can watch the horses at out barn turned out.

Its just horses being horses but one of the mares likes to get a little too close to her mom (easily the alpha) who in her late twenties will swiftly pin her ears back and depending on which would require her to move the least out of the way from her optimal grazing path: bite or kick this mare. While this mare will rarely do this anymore she still has some scars from this happening. And yet she has none from tack/people/whips. Mother nature can be much harsher than we are.


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## rocky pony (Oct 5, 2007)

You'd be surprised by how many formerly sane horse people converted to thinking these things, I've known some..it's just appalling. And I'm speaking from the perspective of a vegan. A sensible one, there are more of us than you'd think. I make my life choices based on what I feel is reasonable and what I feel is doing my best for animals (like supporting bee products whenever possible, as doing otherwise only hurts bees). When I look at my relationship with horses, I think about whether it's fair and reasonable and mutually beneficial. My horse seeks entertainment, direction, leadership, and protection that I can provide. I seek companionship and entertainment, as well as fulfillment of a natural passion for horses that drives me, and she can offer those things. I speak to her in "horse" to the best of my ability, and she responds. If I didn't believe that working with her and sometimes making her do things she doesn't want to do was right, she probably would have seriously hurt somebody by now. She was deemed a lost cause before I came and put my cruel, abusive smooth D-ring snaffle in her mouth and taught her to trust people and lead her into a life of usefulness.

Bits don't work off of pain unless you are using them that way, and if you are, then shame on you. The biggest bits in the world are made to be used with an extremely gentle hand...not to force control on a horse that "doesn't listen". Bits are meant to work off of pressure in a sensitive area of the horse that they respond well to and more complex cues are possible because of that. My horses have always been happy and eager to take a bit.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Some folks don't realize that they do the horse more of a disservice by allowing it to behave badly, since to correct it might make poor little Pookie uncomfortable. Those of you who know me know I have a horse who was a PMU baby, spoiled by the first person who had him and allowed to get away with EVERYTHING. He is now 9, I ave had him for 3 years, and he is FINALLY a good boy, happy and settled, after years of rehoming(6 owners by the time he was 5) because people could not handle him, he kicked, bit, etc. If not for his good looks and unusual coloring he would have been Alpo long ago. He still tests people, and likely always will. 

His last owner actually started out with "Poor Guinness"…all the time, until she actually came and saw him and saw the difference. I am consistent and fair, he knows what is expected, and he knows what will happen when he is a brat. All I now have to do is raise my voice.


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

http://mtv.mtvnimages.com/uri/mgid:file:http:shared:mtv.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/dontcare-1433860102.gif
Always has to be one in the crowd who thinks that taking the correct disciplinary action is horrible and abusive, I usually use the picture above.


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## Jessabel (Mar 19, 2009)

A good 95% of people on the horseback-riding-is-cruel bandwagon aren't even horse people. They watch a ten minute video on Youtube and suddenly they're experts on the damaging effects of bits. :icon_rolleyes: 

If posting pictures on Pinterest makes them feel like animal rights warriors, they can have at it. Everyone needs a purpose in life.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

As said, it's usually people who don't know what they are talking about so is it really worth it?


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## MinnieJilian (Jun 9, 2015)

I can see your point. Im not a fan of bits, but I don't go on ranting about it on every pic and at every opportunity I can. Bitless is just a personal thing for me, and it doesn't mean I look at people who use bits a think F#@K you... lol. And your right, those who do, like to grab those "worst of the worst" pics and label that as common practice. I know its not, you know its not. If someone is only able to control a horse with a bit, then so be it. If that works for then, why interfere. Obviously if used aggressively a bit can be painful and damaging, but it doesn't mean everyone does that.
Most people get involved with horses simply because they love horses, I mean really. The rest are just industries or money sick people. Now I wont go ranting on at every photo, but if I do see or read something that makes my blood boil, which I do on occasion, then I will not be afraid to speak up. I am passionate about the things I believe in, and although I wont deliberately set out to have a go at someone or something, I will express my opinion if I think its important. Some people can get a bit carried away with it I know. But it can go the other way too. Ive had people randomly decided to have a go at me on facebook with the tack I use, especially if I have photos where I am on my horse with just a rope halter. I don't know why but there is always one snob why has to open her mouth and tell me that I don't know anything about horses because I don't use a bit, a nose band and a whip. Pft, whatever. 
Either way, yes it is thoroughly annoying when people see a photo and decide to have a rant over it because they assume its dumb, not their style, not cool, not humane enough, or whatever else. I mean, what is it gonna do other then infuriate people... unless what the person has to say is relevant and rather important or worth considering.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

LifeInTheIrons said:


> I don't think it's trolling. A lot of these people have hundreds of posts and such about "horse abuse". They seem to love horses, but not know a lot about them and what it is actually like to own one. A lot of them speak about "when I get a horse, I'll let it do whatever it wants and NEVER put a bit in its mouth." So a lot are just uneducated. Still makes me crazy though, that they don't do their research and stuff. It's a pet peeve of mine . I need to learn to be more forgiving.


I think a lot of those people are kids. Teenagers maybe.

I remember back before I had horses, when I was maybe 10, I thought that if I ever got a horse I wouldn't put a bit in it's mouth, own whips or spurs, etc. 

Then I grew up. Got a horse. Fell off a time or two. Realized tack is there to actually help you!

You find out horses are strong and have the potential to kill you if they get scared (not even on purpose!) and you find it important to be able to communicate with them and control them in an emergency.

So I think a lot of them are kids with no horse experience, or teenagers who maybe have a horse and are living on the edge. One day their luck will run out.

Even people who ride "bitless" must have a way to control their horse. Even if it's just a halter. I guess the difference with me is I don't see bits as a big deal. I rather like them.

I remember one time I had a gelding that I rode down the road to a neighbor's house in a flat nylon halter. The neighbors were horse people. They knew the horse long before I owned it. They were really impressed! I thought nothing of it. I did it because I was lazy and was running a short errand to their house, not because I thought it was impressive. But I did trust the horse to ride safely in a halter or I wouldn't have done it.


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## chinoerika (Jun 10, 2013)

*Bits*

I think we all know that a horse will avoid pain if possible, so if this is true why does my horse almost try to put his bit on himself when we get ready to go riding? :runninghorse2:


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## Roman (Jun 13, 2014)

chinoerika said:


> I think we all know that a horse will avoid pain if possible, so if this is true why does my horse almost try to put his bit on himself when we get ready to go riding? :runninghorse2:


A bitless nut (my version of someone who's bitless, hates whips and about everything else) would say "You've trained your horse to expect it" Right....

>.>
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Le007 (Jan 7, 2013)

We were at a CA clinic and he got after a horse (as he should due to the disrespect and aggression) and there were two women behind us, simply freaking out. Grabbing their faces as if someone was doing something horrifying. CA commented on the few 'ahhhs' that were going on and took the opp to warn people they enter into a dangerous relationship if they let that horse run over them. The ladies behind us left not long after.


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## arabbarrelracer (Jun 2, 2015)

Horses will avoid pain if possible. My horse comes when called, and he doesn't shy when I go to saddle or bridle him LOL

My horse gets corrected if and when its needed.
I don't remember who said it but your right a horse does need something to help control it. yes you can ride free style but even then you must have something to help him learn.


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## Krisarts (Jul 30, 2015)

I found this post cause I was searching posts on rollkur.

My question is: have you, whoever reads this, looked at the videos describing how rollkur can cause physical cramping of the muscle in the neck? Or that in extended use it can damage the skeleton by over developing the wrong muscles? These are facts, not something someone can up and say "here's my opinion, it's needed/ not needed / this is just a theory" there are actual studies out there that contradict the Dutch verdict of the subject and do see rollkur as a means of control by which can cause the horse severe damage over time. Anky even describes it as a way to settle her "hot" horses.

I highly suggest reading the blog on Totilas and how when Rath used a different training method, there was a clear difference in how Totilas moved. He couldn't perform correct movements because in most cases his movements were exaggerated even more by the rollkur training.

It became more clear that Totilas was a business venture. Rollkur was reintroduced into his training so that he could win...so that he could earn money.

Bits Vs Bitless - both can be dangerous and painful. A low, broad noseband can put extreme pressure on the nasal bone. Again, it depends upon how thick the band is and how low it is placed on the face. (If low enough, with enough pressure the nasal bone can be broken, I am sure) The point is bits cause pain too. Some bits are designed to increase pressure with just a slight flick of the wrist. I was able to pin an image regarding curb bits and how to teach yourself how much pressure to use by placing the bit on your own foot. I had an instructor yell at a girl for yanking on her horse's mouth (with a snaffle) during the middle of a jump. Screamed at her with the words "you could cut his tongue in half!" I ride both personally, snaffle and bitless.

As far as certain trainers go - yes there is clear signs of abuse when a "trainer" forces a horse to the ground, let me repeat forces a horse to the ground by any means. (A bridle and bit, twisting them and pulling with ropes, you name it, anything to pull the animal down in a hostile way) The horse submits (fight, flight, freeze) because he thinks he's going to die or is already dead. It's the same as beating a child into submission.

Unfortunately, there are too few unbiased peer reviewed equine studies out there to create bigger cases. And if there is a case, a person with money can silence it. (We see this in American corporations all the time) If any abuse is going on it needs to be addressed, and I think that the FEI is starting to do a bit better job in that in some cases.

Another thing, the big thing where I'm at is the carriage horses of NYC.

Wow, the amount of people that jump on that case...and only show PETA videos or only take a single picture and go "omg horse abuse!" << this was done on a sporadic rainy day in the city claiming the horse was abused because it didn't have a rain coat (I'm not exaggerating). The rain literally lasted 2 minutes and moved on. I'm not saying there are not abuse cases - there are people who will abuse a horse or any animal including other humans for money. However, for the people who have know, loved, and cared for their horses for 40+ years, abide by the strict guidelines set in place...it's horrifying. To the point where I had to tell an old trainer of mine how would she feel if the government wanted to shut down her business by saying she abused horses - even if they only had a few pictures of "proof". (BTW the same trainer was against carriage horses but pro rollkur...how that makes sense I don't know)


One last note, let's please not mistake training for "pleasure, happiness, or enjoyment". If your horse is "happily" taking the bit it's because of his training, it's a conditioned response. The thing is, is the bit causing mouth sores, bleeding gums, and other mouth pain - not if he's gobbling the bit cause "he likes it".

TL;DR : Research, education, it goes both ways, we need more equine studies.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Yogiwick said:


> It's like parents who refuse to discipline their kids then wonder why they are such little horrors.
> 
> It's a bigger picture issue which allows me to not get so upset about it.
> 
> ...


Monday I went to a store, it was busy and there were four childen 8 - 12 years I would say, running riot, including through the cafe. They nearly sent more than one person flying. 

A member of staff asked them to stop amd they just laughed and ran on. They did make a mistake and came down the aisle I was in. An elderly man stood near me let me have his walking stick as they approached.

Hooking a walking stick handle around a human leg is far easier than hooking a crook around a sheep's leg! 
The lad went flying and as I 'helped' him up I stuck my fingers into the bone of his arm and with clenched teeth told him to go find his mother and to behave or I would make him really sorry. 

I wished the mother had come to find me because I would have told her, in my best riding instructors voice (loud) exactly where she was going wrong with rearing her children. Unfortunately she didn't.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

I had a rumor spread about me at my old barn that I abused my gelding, all because I smacked him on the hip when he tried to cow kick me while I was cleaning his feet. The lady who spread the rumor (who was older than me) was a nutcase anyway, so no one believed her, but I still thought it was ridiculous.

Her exact words to me were "I would _never_ hit Gypsy! I could hurt her!" I lost it. Almost started yelling at her as I "explained" that I was not going to let a 1200lbs animal think that he can get away with hurting me and that I could _never_ hit him a tenth as hard as the other horses kicked or bit him simply in play.

Of course, this was the same lady who, when we pointed out that her mare was eating weeds and she probably shouldn't allow her to do that, grabbed her mare's mouth and started trying to reach her hand in and pull the weeds out of the mare's mouth, all the while chastising her in a baby voice saying "Bad Gypsy. Don't you know that could make you sicky?!" My friend and I just rolled our eyes and walked away. She wouldn't even brush the mare because she was afraid she'd hurt her. Then, she had another mare that she had never done anything with in the two years she'd owned her and when she showed up at the barn to move her to another barn, she showed up with an old, falling apart, rusted out, tiny two-horse straight load (the only trailer the horse had ever been trailered in a HUGE open stock trailer once in her life). Her "boyfriend" proceeded to beat the living tar out of the mare with a two-by-four with rusty nails in it because she was terrified and wouldn't get on the trailer...all while this lady looked on and did nothing. By the time my friend left the barn (she couldn't watch anymore), she said the mare was bloody, sweating and absolutely terrified. She and a couple of other boarders called animal control, but they didn't know what barn the people were moving to and by the time the sheriff showed up, the people were gone with the horse.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

I have five children, the oldest is 27, the youngest is now 12. I spanked all of them. 

For some it was a one time deal, for others, it took a few. Not one of them ever required spanking beyond age four. The rules had been set, expectations understood and boundaries and discipline were consistent (mom, dad, grandparents were all on the same page). Spanking became an unnecessary stimulus, but it was a starting point that needed to be made as known possible consequence for non compliance. 

The amount of stimulus to gain a required response lessened with consistency, learning and over time. 

IME it is similar with horses. I don't hit my horses to gain compliance, but it is the end of a process, not the beginning.


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## DomiStLaurent (Aug 20, 2012)

Haha I knew this thread was going to be great. 
According to some people at my barn I am just the worst horse abuser ever! Sorry I will not let my horse disrespect me and walk all over me, we have a mutual respect in that aspect - he knows which line not to cross, as do I. My horse is more than happy to see me each time I come down to the barn, more than willing to take the bit and stands like a statue for the saddle. About half way through his rides he likes to "test me" and throw his cute little tantrums (he thinks he's tough, haha) and he gets checked and reminded that it will not be tolerated. Simple. I could never use excessive force on my horse, I would never even dream of it! 
I've been confronted by PETA reps telling me it's cruel that I keep my horse confined in a paddock outside and that I ride him and show him... Well excuse me, I had no idea my horse was supposed to be running wild and and only corrected with prayers and baby talk. 

These animals are 1,000+ lbs and they need correction within reason. I would never cause harm to my horse or do anything to break the trust that he has in me. My horse is my whole world, but for him to be my whole world I need to be alive so we need to establish respect. Simple!


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

DD's just came back from a Renfair. They told me that every one of the riders jousting were riding with hackamores. People, it's ALWAYS in the hands! I have seen mechanical hackamores, bosels and just plain halters rub a horse's face raw. I also witnessed "Corporal" (Arabian, 1982-2009, RIP) is an English lesson with an eggbutt snaffle (NOT a french link) and drooling and "frowning" (when the contact is made and the horse gives to the bit.)
I've gotta believe that the Renfair people THINK that their audience believes that all bits are bad.


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

This thread gives me hope... 

I don't claim to be an expert on horses because we are constantly learning but I have watched so many situations where it has ended badly because they let their horses walk all over them or are afraid to put to much pressure on. I have adopted a new policy 'not my horse not my problem.'


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

I ride both with a bit and bitless, it depends on what im doing and what horse im riding. when im training something new (like driving) i use just a rope halter. its more just incase something happens its saves their mouth (bolt and get away from me, step on the lines etc, that has yet to happen). My mare can be ridden with a bit or bitless, depends on what we are doing and if it will get her hot or not. my mare will happily work in a tomb thumb, but put any type of kimberwick in her mouth and she will flat out rear (even if you dont touch the reins. Same goes for a mechanical hack, it gets ugly fast. but she will happily work in a snaffle, curb and tomb thumb (she seams to work better in the tom and i cant figure out why). I can ride her in a halter, sidepull, rope around her neck or rope in her mouth. if im looking at riding for more than just fun, i go bitless. if i am doing more work will use a bit asking for contact (snaffle) or less (curb). 

(sadly my mare is now unrideable due to some health issues)

Im thinking of using bitless of my fiance's paint as he thinks he can grab the bit with other people riding him. If there is no bit to grab he is SOL.

People used to call me cruel for putting shoes on my mare. yet forcing her to go without shoes when she would chip till she bled was cruel to me. PEople would call me cruel for riding her in a tomb thumb, yet i would ride with ALOT of slack in the rain and she was incredible light in the bit. my mare is quite opinionated and if she dose not like something, she will gladly let you know (refer to mechanical hack and kimberwick). People also thought it was crule to give my mare a trace clipp as it removed her protection form the "colt weather" mid 30s at the lowest). but not think of the fact that it was still 106F out and my mare had over 1inch of fluff and was dropping weight from sweating it all off. then it was wrong of my to blanket after removing her protection -_-' my mare was one of the few horses who GAINED weight over the winter and was not over heating in the spring.


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## Textan49 (Feb 13, 2015)

Foxhunter said:


> Monday I went to a store, it was busy and there were four childen 8 - 12 years I would say, running riot, including through the cafe. They nearly sent more than one person flying.
> 
> A member of staff asked them to stop amd they just laughed and ran on. They did make a mistake and came down the aisle I was in. An elderly man stood near me let me have his walking stick as they approached.
> 
> ...


 Foxhunter, You are definitely my kind of lady !

I was at a travel plaza watching a man with his three year old son. The child wanted to go to the game room and the father was nicely telling him that as soon as his mother returned from the restroom they were going to have lunch. The child defiantly headed off to the game room and the dad grabbed him and gave him a swat on the bottom. There were gasps and looks of horror on the faces of the people who saw it but in less than a minute the boy was all smiles, excited about lunch, and behaving nicely.

As for the people who scream abuse . . . I learned at a very young age that it is not always WHAT you do but how you go about doing it that matters. This applies to all things, not just horse related.

I have a complaint about the people who say that a horse should never be stalled. I have never kept my own horses stalled for more than 24 hours and that was only when a storm was raging outside. They were in at night during the winter, in during the hottest part of the day away from the flies in the summer, and out the rest of the time. But, I still used stalls and never had any problems related to confinement. That is a lot different from a horse that is stalled and may (if he's lucky) get an hour of turnout a few time a week.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Textan49 said:


> That is a lot different from a horse that is stalled and may (if he's lucky) get an hour of turnout a few time a week.


While keeping a horse confined for extended periods of time is foreign to me anymore. I don't consider owners who do, or have to, abusive. 

There are pros and cons to each situation, and both can be done well.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Abuse and neglect exist and some of it is bc of ignorance. The term "tolerate" and "tolerance" are taken verbatem and executed, often to the detriment of the animal kept in conditions and training that they can "tolerate".
Stalls aren't abusive. No stalls aren't abusive. Pastured isn't abusive. Dry lots are abusive. Bits aren't abusive. No bits aren't abusive. Saddles and other tack aren't abusive. Shoes aren't abusive (except the platform Big Lick TWH shoes, but I also think that women abuse themselves with platform heels.)
Horses can survive in extreme temperatures, but they cannot paw through several inches of ice for water, or handle well extremely hot paddocks, with NO breeze and NO shade. I don't think even buffalo can do well in those two instances.
I like to encourage best practices, but a lot of my ideas are personal preference and what I would tell my students to do.


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## Mulefeather (Feb 22, 2014)

I think the treatment of both animals and children gets the "horrified onlooker" treatment where you can do nothing right sometimes. Everyone has an opinion whether they know anything about children/animals or not.

When one of my friends had her first child, she got random strangers yelling at her for bottle-feeding her son. She was physically unable to produce milk because of a thyroid issue, so it's not like she had much choice in the matter. 

I've had people tell me that mules are waiting to kill you, they can't run, they are all nasty, you can't ride them because you can only pack with them, etc etc etc. 

People who don't know anything are awfully eager to let that fact be known.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

Ahh...the Disney group. Most of them are fools, and most of them can't control their water faucets, much less a horse.

And disagree with "bonding" to be able to ride a horse well or work with it. That is less important than people have been led to believe. It just sounds good in jibber jabber.

Saw this same type of thing today on some obscure FB group where "did horse confirm to you he wanted to work?" was the advice being given by some brainless wonder.

Makes you want to tear your hair out.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I had a good one the other evening with the dogs. I was walking back with them off leash but all close to me. A woman told me that my English Pointer was 'starved' because you could see his ribs. 

This is a fit dog that gets around three hours lose walking a day, he never stops running! Her overweight pooches were puffing and exhausted just walking 200 yards.

I asked her how many dogs she had owned and how old they were when they died. She proudly told me the oldest was 'nearly eleven' 

I told her that I considered that young - the youngest I had to have PTS was fifteen and the oldest eighteen. 

That shut her up!


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

Foxhunter said:


> This is a fit dog that gets around three hours lose walking a day, he never stops running! Her overweight pooches were puffing and exhausted just walking 200 yards.


Yeah, my younger one (Plott hound or mix thereof) will happily run half a mile up the side of a mountain, then run down and keep up with me doing 10-15 mph on the mountain bike until he decides to go zooming uphill again. You can see his ribs, too 

Comes to that, you can see my ribs, unlike some members of my species.


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## goodhrs (Dec 30, 2009)

I am so sick of all the animals rights groups that know nothing trying to push the ignorant ideas down my throat.


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## phoenix (Jun 7, 2010)

I used to be on the 'bit are bad' bandwagon. I even got a bitless bridle for my crazy horse, switched him over to an eggbutt snaffle after one particularly harrowing trail ride where he totally stopped listening and rushed through his useless bitless bridle for almost 4 hours. He goes nicely on a loose rein in his snaffle bit. 

I have a friend who is so anti bit she spouts all kinds of things about animal cruelty. I just ignore her, she wouldn't ride my horse if he was the last horse on earth she's so scared of him. I also have a friend who does ride her pony bitless and after watching her try several types of bits very unsuccessfully i'm glad she's decided to stay bitless; her pony is well behaved and goes very nicely in his bitless.

Once another boarder who had been watching me lunge my horse asked if i would lunge hers and show her how to do it. So she brought her horse in, he's never ridden, is fatter than he should be and has no manners. So this horse didn't move out of my space when i asked him to go forward so i flicked him with the lunging whip, he moved and off he went around the round pen at the trot. Fine. I backed off to get him to change direction and he turned, ran towards me and tried to run me down. He got smacked pretty hard and i went after him until he backed off. The look she gave me was priceless, like i'd took out a gun and shot her horse in the face. He tried running me down a few times and didn't get away with it and actually lunged quite nicely once he'd stopped trying to get his own way. Needless to say i was never asked to lunge her horse again, i smacked him hard a few times for my own safety but she couldn't see that, she only saw me whipping her horse. I'm not sorry i smacked him, he needed it, he was trying to hurt me to get his own way and i won't stand for that. My horse knows he can't get away with crap like that and doesn't even try it. He's well behaved and a joy to work with, her horse is an idiot who is badly behaved and will likely hurt someone at some point.

I'm all for animals rights, i don't think people should be beating horses or neglecting animals; but if a horse is trying to dominate someone and being pushy they need to be put in their place, just like they would be in the herd.


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## TheAQHAGirl (Aug 10, 2012)

phoenix said:


> I used to be on the 'bit are bad' bandwagon. I even got a bitless bridle for my crazy horse, switched him over to an eggbutt snaffle after one particularly harrowing trail ride where he totally stopped listening and rushed through his useless bitless bridle for almost 4 hours. He goes nicely on a loose rein in his snaffle bit.
> 
> I have a friend who is so anti bit she spouts all kinds of things about animal cruelty. I just ignore her, she wouldn't ride my horse if he was the last horse on earth she's so scared of him. I also have a friend who does ride her pony bitless and after watching her try several types of bits very unsuccessfully i'm glad she's decided to stay bitless; her pony is well behaved and goes very nicely in his bitless.
> 
> ...


You know what's cruel to me? Letting your horse push you around to the point where you HAVE to give it a good smack on the butt. It should never evolve to a point where you have to do that.

What bothers me is when a owner yells at a trainer, "Stop smacking my horse!" Well gee-wiz, if you didn't let your horse walk all over you we wouldn't be in this situation. It's the owner's/handler's fault that the horse has learned to be so disrespectful...That just bothers me. :/


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## apachetears (Oct 27, 2014)

LifeInTheIrons said:


> Hey everyone, haven't been on here in a while!
> 
> I was scrolling through my Pinterest feed and just became a little frustrated. There were people posting pictures of perfectly happy horses wearing bridles and saying, "You don't need all that junk to control a horse, you just need a super strong bond, look how much the horse is in pain!" I know signs of a horse in pain. Tense face and mouth, pinned ears, worried eyes, head up and fighting the bit, tension, mouth opening, etc., and more.And it just makes me a bit frustrated when people say horses hate having a job and all people who ride horses are abusers.
> 
> ...


Harsh?
Horse owner in the know, know what is abuse and what is discipline by this point.
Having had busted ribs, hematoma of the scrotum, stepped on toes, butt swatted across the stable, bitten and leaned on I can say for sure that my horses treat me much worse than I have ever treated them.
They treat me like a horse and that's why.


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## apachetears (Oct 27, 2014)

KsKatt said:


> I'd love to get opinions on this. Is it a photo op or is it what it looks like?
> 
> Horse harshly trained by Jeromy Mixon & Brad Stewart in Millerton, OK
> 
> ...


My opinion?
That's abuse and that fellow needs to be hog tied and stood on to show him the error of his ways.
That is known as Charro style.


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## apachetears (Oct 27, 2014)

Foxhunter said:


> Monday I went to a store, it was busy and there were four childen 8 - 12 years I would say, running riot, including through the cafe. They nearly sent more than one person flying.
> 
> A member of staff asked them to stop amd they just laughed and ran on. They did make a mistake and came down the aisle I was in. An elderly man stood near me let me have his walking stick as they approached.
> 
> ...


LOL, I had an Aunt Nell who kept us when I was a kid, we were hellions, she had a method to make us mind.
It was ten years before I found out a fly swatter was for killing flies and not making kids mind.
I love my Aunt Nell to this day and she was the sweetest person I ever knew, sparked my love of horses and dogs.
Made me mind by the Great horse spirit though.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

I think it used to be that people who knew nothing about animals stayed in the city and didn't think too hard about how animals were trained or managed. 

Now everybody's an expert because they watched a youtube video. 

There's a viral one going around of the heartbreaking/heartwarming story of a cow rescued from slaughter (my first 'huh?') crying all night for her calf, and then they rescued the calf too!! It was so weak from hunger that it fell down being led back to his mom and the heartwarming reunion. 

Endless posts about, well, just what you would think. 

Just a few issues I saw with this. One, purebred Hereford cow. Purebred Jersey calf. Hmm. Calf never was on a lead before, they typically fall down when first led. Calf did not act like this cow was his mom. Calf was actually fat by Jersey calf standards. Only magical thing was that he tried nursing on this cow and she let him! That's a valuable cow, in my opinion. 

Not one of these obvious, only have to know a smidge about cows facts was noticed by the hundreds possibly thousands of commenters. They only saw the Brutal Evil Men who Have No Feelings and the Story of A Few People Who Cared Enough. 

Really enough to make you puke. 

My experience is that very few people who get irate about mistreatment of horses know anything about horses at all. These people are often true fanatics, with all the dangerousness that implies.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Avna said:


> I think it used to be that people who knew nothing about animals stayed in the city and didn't think too hard about how animals were trained or managed.
> 
> Now everybody's an expert because they watched a youtube video.
> 
> ...


 At first your story about the Hereford cow/jersey calf made me laugh. Then I stopped cold.

Just another glaring example of how the ignorant trump knowledge with their 
emotional propaganda.

People in ag can educate and educate, but it doesn't catch interest or even get remembered like the trumped up falsehoods invented by the nuts.

I even hear horse people bash ranchers and farmers. They don't realize their hobby is in the crosshairs, too. By the same groups. Using the same tactics. With misinformation and outright lies.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Seems like everybody just wants to experience that combination of sentimentality and self-righteousness. O Noooo How Can They Treat Innocents That Way!! I am Furious! 

Facts that stand in their way get mown down. 

Not to make this a political thread, but I am observing an ever-increasing level of fanaticism in our society, comes out in various ways. Maybe it is a reaction to feeling helpless? Dunno but this movement is growing.


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## Textan49 (Feb 13, 2015)

Avna said:


> Seems like everybody just wants to experience that combination of sentimentality and self-righteousness. O Noooo How Can They Treat Innocents That Way!! I am Furious!
> 
> Facts that stand in their way get mown down.
> 
> Not to make this a political thread, but I am observing an ever-increasing level of fanaticism in our society, comes out in various ways. Maybe it is a reaction to feeling helpless? Dunno but this movement is growing.


 That is an interesting point Avna, It seems to manifest itself in different ways, but it amounts to being self centered. Their opinion or that of their group is more important than the opinion or beliefs of others without taking the time to consider if their opinion is even valid. This reminds me of the conversation that I heard from behind me at a rodeo. The man was explaining to his lady friend that the horse was bucking because the bucking strap was tied around HIS genitals. I am assuming from how it was phrased that he thought the horse was an ungelded male when in fact it was a mare. I most certainly did point out the fact to him that the strap was no where near HER genitals. But, did it make a difference? I just blew his theory right out of the water but I am sure he left still believing this was terrible abuse


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Textan49 said:


> I just blew his theory right out of the water but I am sure he left still believing this was terrible abuse


Or that you were some crackpot who had no idea what they were talking about and that he was, in fact, correct. I've had people do that to me (like the guy who insisted that my older dog, who is clearly a mutt, was a purebred Bernese Mountain Dog...even though he's marked like a St Bernard, not a Bernie :icon_rolleyes: ).


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Roman said:


> Omg yes!! I have seen so many people say they hate showing and would never do it because people who show only want to win a ribbon, money, cause pain to the horse, and generally do not care about their horses.
> 
> Bits are so bad yet they refuse to say and believe bitless causes pain. I saw a picture that had two horses, one had a bit and looked like it was yawning, or making trying get away from the bit, I don't know, but I wanna say it was yawning. The second horse, the rider was bareback and in a rope halter I believe, the horse had his neck collected at a standstill and you could definitely tell it was forced. The horse just looked unhappy, not relaxed, and forced into that position.
> 
> ...


I can think of several horses, including one of mine. That WOULD kill you if they were allowed to walk all over you. And any horse COULD and that would raise the danger. Yet with proper handling they are happy and well adjusted good citizens.

I've dealt with many times first hand how proper handling changes a horse. And that doesn't mean a crazy half handled horse, even a horse moving from one barn to another can have a huge difference.

What people often realize if you say "hit" your horse once properly then chances are you don't need to again. There may be some "not pretty" moments but they are very very few and far between and they allow a relationship to flourish. It is just the way horses work. You need to understand the way horses work to work with them


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

This whole "everything is abuse" and the lack of training some people put into their horses because of it is why I rarely will buy a horse over 6 mos old and won't even consider one over 2 years. I'm a bit of a drill sergeant with my horses, I correct the little infractions so that I don't have to have the big ones. I don't beat my horses but I will do a stern correction when needed. I grew up in the "hurt him before he hurts you" era of horse training and I didn't subscribe to that theory then and don't now, but I'm not afraid to get right after a horse hard, one time, and then rarely need to a 2nd time. 

Depending on my patience level and BS tank fill level I tend to vary between "Bless your heart" and "You're entitled to your opinion" when dealing with someone I consider to be a little irrational and uninformed.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Yogiwick said:


> I can think of several horses, including one of mine. That WOULD kill you if they were allowed to walk all over you. And any horse COULD and that would raise the danger. Yet with proper handling they are happy and well adjusted good citizens.
> 
> I've dealt with many times first hand how proper handling changes a horse. And that doesn't mean a crazy half handled horse, even a horse moving from one barn to another can have a huge difference.
> 
> What people often realize if you say "hit" your horse once properly then chances are you don't need to again. There may be some "not pretty" moments but they are very very few and far between and they allow a relationship to flourish. It is just the way horses work. You need to understand the way horses work to work with them


what people often DON'T realize...


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## LifeInTheIrons (Mar 28, 2015)

Ugh, so today our barn's resident Crazy Lady was out at the barn for the first time in a while. 

About a month or two ago, me and my friend had to body clip one of the older lesson horse mares. She was still having trouble shedding her winter coat, even in the middle of July, so we had to body clip her so she didn't get overheated. 

Well, her hair hasn't grown back much, you can still tell that she has been body clipped. And when Crazy Lady came out today and saw the mare, she about had a fit, telling us that shaving a horse is unnatural, wrong, and would make the mare sick. I told her that we had to get rid of her winter coat, and she responded with "You should've let her shed it herself!" And then stomped off before I could explain any further. I'm sorry lady, but that mare could've had serious heatstroke if we hadn't shaved her winter coat off.

Ugh. Makes me insane sometimes.


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## InStable (Mar 3, 2014)

Oh....my.....gracious....

A good ol' analogy comes to mind. "Opinions are like a-holes. Everyone has one." 

Sounds like a bunch of holier than thou folks that don't necessarily know what they are doing or understand horses...


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## InStable (Mar 3, 2014)

My personal favorite is having to educate people who think I am cruel to pasture board my horse. Oh he might get wet, cold, hot, etc... 

Wet? Are you kidding? He and the other geldings were LOVING the rain the other day. They were acting like a bunch of kids. Nope, rain doesn't bother him.

Cold? He has a thick winter coat, he gets blanketed and has some really lovely hay. Plus, I live in the southeast, not Alaska. 

Hot? He has lots of water and shade. 

Not all horses like stalls. Mine doesn't. He wants to be free to move.


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## KsKatt (Jun 2, 2014)

My first thought is, hello horses originated in the wild, that is their natural habitat, not a stall.
:runninghorse2:


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

KsKatt said:


> My first thought is, hello horses originated in the wild, that is their natural habitat, not a stall.
> :runninghorse2:


That reminds me... Yesterday someone put a photo up on a tourism site that highlights things in my area. The pic was of two feral stallions fighting. Or playing. *shrug* It's sometimes hard to tell unless you are there. Anyway...

A woman asked in her comment on the photo if anyone made them stop and became upset because she found out no one is hanging out with the horses and making sure all is well. I don't know who broke the news to her, but she doesn't think wild horses should be running around loose where they can get hurt. And what about the fires? 

Oh my. Apparently we (collectively the citizens of the U.S.) are neglectful horse owners.


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

People thought I was mean because my TB had somehow gotten into the feed shed and eaten all his feed and I refused to get him more food until payday (which was like 4 days away).
They kept offering me food to feed him and I just told them he can wait he's not starving he has plenty of grass.


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## MiniWhinny (Aug 24, 2015)

phoenix said:


> I used to be on the 'bit are bad' bandwagon. I even got a bitless bridle for my crazy horse, switched him over to an eggbutt snaffle after one particularly harrowing trail ride where he totally stopped listening and rushed through his useless bitless bridle for almost 4 hours. He goes nicely on a loose rein in his snaffle bit.
> 
> I have a friend who is so anti bit she spouts all kinds of things about animal cruelty. I just ignore her, she wouldn't ride my horse if he was the last horse on earth she's so scared of him. I also have a friend who does ride her pony bitless and after watching her try several types of bits very unsuccessfully i'm glad she's decided to stay bitless; her pony is well behaved and goes very nicely in his bitless.
> 
> ...


And you did the absolute right thing there. Im not gonna beat around the bush.. horse language is violent. If a lower horse tries to push a higher horse around, he will most defiantly receive a good bite on the bum or a kick in the chest. That horse tried to push you around the way he probably pushes his owner around, and you gave him the human equivalent of a kick. That's not abuse, that's correction! You will get these people who think its all about being nice with carrot cookies and fluffy pink halters and blah blah, but so many horses are turned dangerous because of their foolish owners. If their horses push back once they will go oh no, hes mad, I will lleave him alone and hopefully hes happy tomorrow... or they will just allow themselves to get pushed around whilst they go to put up hay nets or whatever. So their horse learns that they are able to dominate humans, then they get big for their boots and people end up scared of them because they are too "nice" to simply flick 'em' off like any horse would if pushed around.
I rescued two of my horses, I love them and I would never cause them damaging harm or try to make them feel vulnerable. I don't compete, use bits, or anything by choice, but that does not make me a nicey let my horses get away with anything person. I was once working with my horse saffy, and we had just finished doing liberty. As I walked up the hill, she decided to try and push me over to get more treats. What did I do, I slapped her with the halter lol. and she again tried to KICK me, really pushing her luck, so I threw the halter at her, sending her galloping up the hill like the crazy 4 year old she is. Shes young, she's starting to move up in the horse pecking order and beginning to realise she can make herself higher... with a horse. But I wont put up with it. I wasn't being abusive, and I wasn't mad at her, because I realise she is just being a horse. I was teaching her manners and that if she tries her luck to be bossy, it will backfire in her face.
Don't let horses push you around, giving them a little slap is not gonna hurt them. If you really don't want to hit your horse, there are other ways close enough to a "kick". Try backing up on your horse doing the "chicken dance" or making some kind of energy to send them off. This is your equivalent of a horse warning, they will back up on a idiot yearling and make it look like they will kick.. it is usually enough to send a smart horse away. But if they persist, you need to get harsher or your horse will walk all over you.

Sorry to rant on lol, I got carried away with typing. :cowboy:


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

chinoerika said:


> I think we all know that a horse will avoid pain if possible, so if this is true why does my horse almost try to put his bit on himself when we get ready to go riding? :runninghorse2:



LOL mine too!!


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## greenhaven (Jun 7, 2014)

boots said:


> At first your story about the Hereford cow/jersey calf made me laugh. Then I stopped cold.
> 
> Just another glaring example of how the ignorant trump knowledge with their
> emotional propaganda.
> ...


EXACTLY. And as much as I love Facebook it is a primo outlet for just that kind of ignorance perpetuation.



Rainaisabelle said:


> People thought I was mean because my TB had somehow gotten into the feed shed and eaten all his feed and I refused to get him more food until payday (which was like 4 days away).
> They kept offering me food to feed him and I just told them he can wait he's not starving he has plenty of grass.


Ohhhh my gosh, that meme just slayed me! I don't know if it will quote, but that was so awesome!


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

I just thought of something else not sure if it has been said but tying to the patience tree if anyone saw me doing that and letting my TB fight it out they would probably call abuse or tell me to look at some parelli or something along those lines (I am not against parelli or NH)


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## Jessabel (Mar 19, 2009)

I broke down and watched the cow video... :rofl: 

Dear god people, REALLY??


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