# Desensitizing Kodak



## Acadianartist

Thought this was worthy of a new thread. For those who want more background, read my thread called "Difficult first ride on Kodak". We've had Kodak, a 10 yr old QH mare about two weeks now. She rode fine when we tried her (both my 11 yr old daughter and I rode her on two different days in two different situations: trail and arena). She had one little spook the second time, but it wasn't when we were riding. After the ride, they had tied her to a post and we were talking and she suddenly pulled back hard. She stopped and quieted down and we didn't see what scared her, but she is quite head-shy and will pull back if you try to grab her halter so we assumed it was related to that issue. 

I've posted three videos about her which I'd be happy to re-post if necessary, but you'll find them on the "Difficult first ride on Kodak thread". She appeared dead broke in the videos (my coach's words), but of course, videos can be edited. 

I've had her on trails and she did well (mostly). In the arena (which is really just our paddock), she's iffy. She's extremely attached to our gelding already so I'm trying to ride them out separately and it's going pretty well so far. She's clearly an insecure horse and my coach agrees she is acting out of fear. We feel she was probably "broken" in the cowboy style (she comes from out west) and was taught to submit. In the words of the people who sold her to me "She doesn't have to like it but she has to tolerate it". I'd honestly rather have a horse who wants to do things with me willingly than by force, but I understand what they were saying and understand I need to be this horse's leader as she clearly needs one. 

The head-shyness shows up anytime I move too quickly around her head. I cannot walk right up to her face, I always approach her from the shoulder and start touching her neck before haltering her, but given that she's new, I'd say she's coming along nicely with letting me halter her in the paddock. She is a generally pretty fearful horse, but when she relaxes, she's a nice horse to ride.

Yesterday, she spooked twice in the paddock while I was riding her during a lesson - like full-blown running spooks with quick turns that send you flying. First it was because the coach came out of the shadows with a jump standard and the second time there was a plastic bag blowing in the wind. Both times she caught me off-guard and I fell off. I understand falling off is part of riding, but the point of buying her was to have a beginner-safe horse (our gelding is not beginner safe). Both times it happened, I wasn't focusing on her, but chatting with my coach so I take some of the blame, but by the same token, it's not going to be relaxing to ride her if I have to be on high alert with her 100% of the time.

So my first question is can this horse ever be beginner safe? Or should I cut my losses and look for another horse? If I'm going to be the only one that's able to ride her, I'm not sure she's worth keeping. My hopes for her were that she'd make an unflappable trail horse for myself and my daughter, as well as the occasional visitor I might have. Our Arab gelding Harley is a sweetheart, but I wouldn't put a beginner on him and he's not the best on trails. 

Would you work on desensitizing her right away or would you give her a little more time to get used to her surroundings before adding scary things? 

I was thinking I'd do ground work with her for a few days, but I want to keep riding her as well since she was doing well up until yesterday. Would you add things in the paddock like a tarp, random jump standards, a flapping plastic bag attached to a post, etc.? I'm NOT a horse trainer, but I can expose her to different things on the ground in the hopes that she'll realize they're not going to eat her. 

What would you do?


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## Rainaisabelle

You could send her for retraining if you wanted to spend he money. Riding her through it is another option but I'm not sure how well for this horse it would work :/


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## jenkat86

I understand that videos can be edited, but after watching those videos on your last thread, I really don't think this horse needs desensitized, in the true sense of the word. She's seen it all and you can tell in her face and body that she isn't nervous in those videos. 

My question for you is this: Do you have any twinge of nervousness when you ride her? If so, I think she may be feeding off of that, which in turn makes her anxious. 

Regardless...I think for you to have a good relationship with this horse, you should send her to a trainer for maybe 30 days, maybe not even that long, but WATCH the trainer. Work with the trainer. See how this horse interacts with leadership. My gut tells me this is a horse that really needs a strong leader that will actually work WITH the her instead of just making her submit. (And it sounds like you agree that she is insecure.) 

I think she just needs to build up some confidence.


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## Acadianartist

jenkat86 said:


> I understand that videos can be edited, but after watching those videos on your last thread, I really don't think this horse needs desensitized, in the true sense of the word. She's seen it all and you can tell in her face and body that she isn't nervous in those videos.
> 
> My question for you is this: Do you have any twinge of nervousness when you ride her? If so, I think she may be feeding off of that, which in turn makes her anxious.
> 
> Regardless...I think for you to have a good relationship with this horse, you should send her to a trainer for maybe 30 days, maybe not even that long, but WATCH the trainer. Work with the trainer. See how this horse interacts with leadership. My gut tells me this is a horse that really needs a strong leader that will actually work WITH the her instead of just making her submit. (And it sounds like you agree that she is insecure.)
> 
> I think she just needs to build up some confidence.


I was more nervous when I rode her last night because the coach was there and that makes me more aware of my riding. However, she was sold to me as a beginner-safe horse. By definition, a beginner can be nervous and will probably not be a confident leader. Expecting a beginner to be a confident rider is a contradiction in terms.

I don't know if sending her to a trainer is an option. I'd rather have the trainer come to me, because another reason for buying her is to have a companion horse for my gelding who just falls apart when he's alone. I can't send her away and have my gelding alone for a month. And honestly, I spent a lot of money on this horse because she was supposed to have the training already. Not sure how much more I'm willing to spend, and if I do, I'd want to know she will become more reliable as a beginner-safe horse. If this horse cannot be that, then I'd rather sell her and move on. What bothers me, is that she'll be fine one minute, then explode the next. No telling what will set her off. 

But maybe she just needs time to get used to her new home and this will all go away... ?


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## sarahfromsc

This is difficult for we have not seen your ride Kodak. Plus, what I would do would be different than what you would/should do because of where I am with my riding and confidence versus where you are.

I would talk to your coach since she was there for the unplanned dismounts and none of us were.

With that said, the head shyness could just be her. I have had my gelding since he was a just turned four unruly youngster. He has never been hit on the head or about the head. He still is not fond of people walking right up to his face and petting him. If I am out riding and come across hikers etc., I tell them to approach my knee and pet his neck and to give a scratch behind his ear then moving to his throat latch and then the face. He knows me and willingly accepts me approaching his face.

If she from out west she could be unsure of the area a area so set up stuff so she can get use to it.

The thing with trying to desensitize a horse to stuff in an area where it is safe is fine and dandy. But she may still react to the exact same stimuli out on the trail differently. Because it is different.

Really you can't get them use to everything. To me desensitizing a horse really boils down to getting the horse to trust you over their need for flight. And that takes lots of rides where you tire them out.

Bottom line talk to and listen to your coach. She has the advantage of seeing you ride.


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## Acadianartist

Thanks sarah. I just asked my coach the same question and just got her response. She says give her time. She feels this horse is actually sweet-tempered and quiet, but is going through an adjustment period. She had the same experience with a horse she bought who was supposed to be bombproof and was a disaster for the first few weeks, but settled right down after. 

Coach also suggests not doing too much to desensitize her just yet. Just let her relax in her new environment so she builds up confidence. 

I went out to feed the horses this morning and she's a total angel, LOL. You'd never think she could spook at anything. Total relaxation. 

She has a huge welt on her face which is what made me think something or someone hit her, causing her head-shyness, but of course I have no way of knowing this. All I know for sure is that the previous owners were all about submission. I'd rather have communication and cooperation, but I'm not living in unicorn-land, I do understand that a horse has to see me as a leader. 

I think I'll do some ground work with her tonight just to work on that.


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## jenkat86

Acadianartist said:


> Expecting a beginner to be a confident rider is a contradiction in terms.


Yes and no. I was fearless as a beginner, that doesn't mean I did things correctly, but my confidence wavered with the more experience I got...because then I knew what a horse was capable of. 



Acadianartist said:


> I don't know if sending her to a trainer is an option. I'd rather have the trainer come to me, because another reason for buying her is to have a companion horse for my gelding who just falls apart when he's alone. I can't send her away and have my gelding alone for a month.


I think that would work fine to have a trainer come to you. 




Acadianartist said:


> And honestly, I spent a lot of money on this horse because she was supposed to have the training already. Not sure how much more I'm willing to spend, and if I do, I'd want to know she will become more reliable as a beginner-safe horse. If this horse cannot be that, then I'd rather sell her and move on. What bothers me, is that she'll be fine one minute, then explode the next. No telling what will set her off.


I honestly don't think she is a beginner's horse, and I don't think she will be for a long time. She needs miles and a leader to build her up. If that's something you are willing to do for her, then you have a wonderful horse FOR that...but I just don't think that's what you want. 



Acadianartist said:


> But maybe she just needs time to get used to her new home and this will all go away... ?


That's always a possibility, but I just don't think it's the case here.

If I wasn't so far away from you I would consider buying this horse. I like her quite a bit!


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## egrogan

I'm no trainer, so take this as you will. But I have been working and volunteering in a therapeutic riding barn for years now, and I have seen something similar happen with horses donated to our program. Any horse that comes to our barn for a trial has already been through an extensive evaluation by our Program Director. She interviews the owner about the horse's "work experience" and personality, then goes to the horse's barn a few times to ride. She brings props, including medical equipment like wheelchairs or walkers, and she makes some of the same "unusual" motions on the ground and in the saddle that a rider with physical or emotional disabilities might make. After being evaluated on a temperament checklist, a horse who "passes" the intake process comes to the barn for trial. A therapy horse has to be a special kind of "bombproof."

Even horses who have passed this assessment need a bit of time to get used to the environment before they begin lessons. We have a large indoor arena with a metal roof- some of them have never ridden in an indoor like this, with a roof that pops when it gets hot and makes a lot of noise when it rains. We have mirrors on all the walls, which freaks some of them out. We use a lot of "toys" in lessons with kids. They have to learn to be mounted at a big ramp that accommodates wheel chairs. The first couple of weeks, these clearly broke, beginner-friendly horses may snort and shy. They may spook and rush sideways. They may jump into your space when they're surprised by something they haven't seen before. But after that week or two of learning the new environment, most of them go back to being the horse we expected when they came on trial. Of course, they are still horses, so even our babysitter mare who must surely have been born to be a therapy horse will occasionally spook when there's a loud noise on the roof. And there have been a few over the years that would have been very sweet horses for beginners (children or adults) to learn and grow with, but were perhaps a little too unpredictable to be safe enough for therapy work.

I guess all this is to say, after a few weeks (and I'd hesitate to say exactly how many weeks, because each horse is an individual), I think you'll know if she's going to be steady and trustworthy enough for what you need. If you bought her to be primarily a trail horse, does she need to be ridden in the arena at all? It sounds like you had a much better experience with her on the trails, right?


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## Acadianartist

Thanks for that egrogan. My coach told me a similar story about a bombproof horse she bought who fell apart for the first few weeks and then went back to being a bombproof horse.

Yes, I bought her as a trail horse. I really don't care how she looks in an arena and I will never show her. But the reality is that lessons take place in an arena and I feel we can both use lessons as we adjust to each other so I do need to ride her in an arena sometimes. And I think it's a safer place to desensitize her. We got lucky on the trails. Other than birds fluttering suddenly out of bushes and trees waving in the wind, we didn't encounter anything scary (well, other than those scary purple flowers, but she got over those quickly  ). I now wonder how she will react if (I should say when) we do. I'll continue to take her out on trails though, and wear my helmet  

Where she's from, there aren't forests like there are here and she wasn't ridden in a closed-in arena. They just had an open field with dirt in the middle and cones set up for patterns. No fences or walls. Except for when she was in the previous place where they did the video in the indoor. But she would have been used to open plains where you can see for miles. Here, our terrain is very variable and there are a lot of trees, hills, lush vegetation, etc. You never know what's around the next corner. For a horse, that's probably scary, but oddly, she did ok on the trails. 

I'm going to trust my coach who has vastly more experience than me and has seen all this before. According to her, what happened last night was really not that bad for a new horse (my bruises would beg to differ, but ok). I'm sure if she had been riding Kodak when she spooked, she could have stayed on. My seat just isn't secure enough yet and I didn't respond quickly enough to rein her in.


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## sarahfromsc

Those dang purple flowers will do it ever time!


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## natisha

Your last sentence somewhat addressed what I was thinking. Did you try to stop her or did you fall before you could?
Are you in a western saddle or English?


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## Bondre

Lots of good points made here. My opinion is to give her time and keep taking her out and doing things in a low-key fashion. I think your coach is spot-on when she says not to work on desensitizing but rather do things that will help Kodak to relax with you. The last thing you want is to make her wary of you because you keep insisting she look at weird new objects.

The whole thing about being a leader is a delicate balance. You want to be someone she can trust but not someone she's scared of; you need to be trustworthy so she places her confidence in you, without being overly bossy so she shuts down and goes into meek obedience mode. She sounds like a horse that's seen enough of dominant owners and might blossom under an understanding leader. 

Just like Egrogan, I was questioning the need to ride her in an arena seeing as what you want is a trail horse, but I understand about doing lessons in an arena. If she's tense in the arena then I guess you should do lots of little sessions in there with her, ride round a couple of times in each direction before you go out on the trails for example, so she becomes more accustomed to working in there and knows it's not a scary place. For the moment the jump standards may be strange to her. I think that frequent, relaxed handling is the key to help her to adjust to her new situation.


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## carshon

Going to add something here as our family now has 2 new horses - I have had mine for 9 weeks now and was told she was a seasoned trail horse. Our first few rides were less than stellar - she is settling in now and doing better but this past Sunday we had a major spook at a deer jumping out of the woods and I almost came off. She settled right back down and gets better every ride. My point is that my horse is learning to trust me and the more we ride the better she gets.

Our other horse has been here for 10 days - has had extensive training (like Kodak) and has been such a flake that we considered taking her back (she is on a 6 week trail lease) My husband and daughter have both ridden her and each ride is different - but she is settling down and I think just needs more time to adjust.

Let Kodak settle in and remember that a horse sold as a trail horse may not do well in an arena - that will take time. Those two venues are not the same and the way a rider rides in those two places is also not the same. You have purchased a horse that has only been ridden western - started riding her English, started riding her in an enclosed area and admit that you are not a seasoned rider. This horses confidence is shot and her rider whom she would normally get confidence from may not be as strong as past riders.

Take a deep breath and relax - she is just being a horse.


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## greentree

Do you have a grab strap on your saddle? They help a lot.....

I would not do a whole lot, either. If the timing of the desensitization exercises is not correct, it gets worse. I would, however, hook a plastic grocery bag over my arm and pretend it is not there, a perfectly normal appendage, while I groom her. I would NOT have her in cross ties to do this the first time. But do not sneak up on her....act normal. 

If she does not react, throw it on the ground and kick it around. Let it blow around. 

Good luck!


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## Yogiwick

My gelding is NOT beginner safe in that I would put a new rider on him and send him out alone, he's hot and green. He is in that he is a sweetheart who would never intentionally hurt anyone (the few times he's felt my weight loose balance he's literally moved back under me and stopped being a butt). There's different types of beginner safe and I am a fan of Kodak and agree with what your coach (who you trust and who has evaluated her in person) has said.

The above gelding, probably due to never being moved in his life was a wreck for MONTHS when we first got him. He's a completely different horse now. ANY horse goes through and adjustment period, some are more obvious than others. **I think you may be forgetting that due to your mare being so sweet and calm overall, but she may be just as nervous as my gelding was. Some horses really do internalize.

I never specifically desensitize unless there is something I think will be an issue then it's an "ok this is gonna happen, we good? we good." type thing.

The same gelding (being an Arab) used to do the 180 and bolt on the trails. Now while you want to catch that before it happens when you learn what's going to happen you can turn them around and face them back the way they started (always ideal to make them turn the way they went but in this situation I find a circle MUCH easier) and they figure it's pointless. It's also pretty easy to sit once you are prepared "ok tight circle now". At this point he's figured out it's pointless and has miles/is settled and he'll simply stop, or if actually spooking spook in place. So a little trick that may help you. It's also a matter of figuring out the warning, there is always a warning even if it's a split second (I know easier said than done sometimes! there's definitely been times I have spooked and the horse hasn't lol!!) when you feel the warning you need to respond appropriately, and you also need to NOT tense up and expect her to spook but simply redirect her. Again, easier said than done, esp after you've come off a few times. I would definitely give her a lot of praise when she's good (I'm sure you know this but do NOT praise about the spooking or "it's ok") I think she' a horse that would respond well to that.

It's very hard to balance being prepared without being tense anxious. I would definitely keep your reins at a "there when needed" length (just a little longer than contact at the most) and make sure to be focused, and as I said in your other thread focus on relaxing yourself, a concious effort will only help (count the tempo etc, nice big breaths).


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## Acadianartist

natisha said:


> Your last sentence somewhat addressed what I was thinking. Did you try to stop her or did you fall before you could?
> Are you in a western saddle or English?


It happened so very fast. One minute I was on a horse, the next, on the ground. My daughter, who watched it all, described my first fall as a Superman jump. I landed on my side with one arm outstretched. I remember she started to run towards the fence, then turned quickly as I was trying to pull back on the reins. I went flying on the turn. The second time I just remember my coach yelling at me to sit back, but I was off her in a split second again. 

I'm in an English saddle.


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## natisha

Acadianartist said:


> It happened so very fast. One minute I was on a horse, the next, on the ground. My daughter, who watched it all, described my first fall as a Superman jump. I landed on my side with one arm outstretched. I remember she started to run towards the fence, then turned quickly as I was trying to pull back on the reins. I went flying on the turn. The second time I just remember my coach yelling at me to sit back, but I was off her in a split second again.
> 
> I'm in an English saddle.


I've been there plenty of times.
What did she do after you came off? Did she keep running around, stop or look in the direction of whatever scared her?

Yes, get a grab strap as Greentree suggested & you may also benefit from some rough out chaps.


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## Avna

A horse that is so dull and tolerant that it doesn't get anxious and reactive when picked up and moved to an entirely strange location with totally different smells, vegetation, sights, people, etc, is a horse almost too boring to ride. Your new horse has a good mind and will get better and better as she settles in. Take her for in-hand walks in the arena and anywhere she might feel uneasy or unsafe. You need to get to know each other and that just doesn't happen in a day or a week or even a month. 

I'd also gently work on her learning to relax while you touch her face. Don't tie her when you're working on this, just hold the lead rope. Try light neck massage working up to rubbing under her jaw. Be very calm and move very quietly, maybe hum or talk to her. 

Also, I highly recommend, if you aren't already wearing them, full-seat breeches and half chaps. Much stickier! I never remember my grab strap in time.

Also recommend learning and *memorizing* a one rein stop. Two reins will get you nowhere good on a spooking horse.


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## karliejaye

greentree said:


> I would, however, hook a plastic grocery bag over my arm and pretend it is not there, a perfectly normal appendage, while I groom her. I would NOT have her in cross ties to do this the first time. But do not sneak up on her....act normal.
> 
> If she does not react, throw it on the ground and kick it around. Let it blow around.
> 
> Good luck!


This reminds me very much of a way I accidentally "desensitized" my big paint to plastic bags. I was doing a perimeter fence check after a wind storm and came across a pretty big piece of aplastic garbage bag stuck in a sage brush. I picked it up and stuck as much of it in my back pocket as I could and continued on my walk. I got distracted by some flowers blooming and stooped to try and ID them (never did figure it out, btw). I did a few other things and about an hour later grabbed a lead rope, a couple brushes and a hoof pick to groom the boys. 
I threw the lead over Cruiser's neck and started grooming. All of a sudden he spooked and acted like a dragon was after him. "Weird" I thought and gave him a jerk on the lead rope and went on about my business. He stood , but had big eyes and a tilted head and just an overall look of dread. A little gust of wind picked up and he snorted and shied sideways again. Not like him at all, but I couldn't see anything that'd be spooking him so I looped the lead rope into a makeshift halter and did some basic ground work with him. Yielding the haunch, yielding his shoulder, backing up. It was part way through this I heard the rustling in my back pocket. I still had about 10" of plastic bag sticking out like a tail. I decided to leave it there and carry on. By the end of his grooming he was standing still. Always had an eye and a suspicious look, but he was standing.




Anyway, I think some minor, "casual" work like that is ok, but do let her get her bearings a bit more before making any rash decisions. EVERY darned horse I have ever gotten has gone through a phase where I wonder if I made the biggest mistake of my life. Some it is right when I first get them, others the issues arise a few months in, but for me, invariably, there is always a rough patch of getting on the same page. And so far, it has always passed. "And this too shall pass" Hang in there. I think she's worth it.


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## Acadianartist

natisha said:


> I've been there plenty of times.
> What did she do after you came off? Did she keep running around, stop or look in the direction of whatever scared her?
> 
> Yes, get a grab strap as Greentree suggested & you may also benefit from some rough out chaps.



She ran over to Harley and came to a full stop beside him. He did really well and stood still for the whole thing which is good because my daughter was on him!


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## Acadianartist

karliejaye said:


> This reminds me very much of a way I accidentally "desensitized" my big paint to plastic bags. I was doing a perimeter fence check after a wind storm and came across a pretty big piece of aplastic garbage bag stuck in a sage brush. I picked it up and stuck as much of it in my back pocket as I could and continued on my walk. I got distracted by some flowers blooming and stooped to try and ID them (never did figure it out, btw). I did a few other things and about an hour later grabbed a lead rope, a couple brushes and a hoof pick to groom the boys.
> I threw the lead over Cruiser's neck and started grooming. All of a sudden he spooked and acted like a dragon was after him. "Weird" I thought and gave him a jerk on the lead rope and went on about my business. He stood , but had big eyes and a tilted head and just an overall look of dread. A little gust of wind picked up and he snorted and shied sideways again. Not like him at all, but I couldn't see anything that'd be spooking him so I looped the lead rope into a makeshift halter and did some basic ground work with him. Yielding the haunch, yielding his shoulder, backing up. It was part way through this I heard the rustling in my back pocket. I still had about 10" of plastic bag sticking out like a tail. I decided to leave it there and carry on. By the end of his grooming he was standing still. Always had an eye and a suspicious look, but he was standing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, I think some minor, "casual" work like that is ok, but do let her get her bearings a bit more before making any rash decisions. EVERY darned horse I have ever gotten has gone through a phase where I wonder if I made the biggest mistake of my life. Some it is right when I first get them, others the issues arise a few months in, but for me, invariably, there is always a rough patch of getting on the same page. And so far, it has always passed. "And this too shall pass" Hang in there. I think she's worth it.


That's hilarious! Thanks for the great story and the encouraging words. My daughter is adamant that she wants to keep her. She had a thing for this horse from day one and she convinced me to buy her. This after seeing over half a dozen horses and riding almost as many when we were horse-shopping. Maybe she knows something I don't. Or maybe she finds the spectacle of her mom going flying into the air entertaining.


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## jaydee

She's a really sweet mare and though by their own admittance she's been bullied into submission at least it hasn't turned her 'nasty' and defensive, just slightly fearful so I think there's hope for her and I wouldn't give up too quickly
Gaining her trust and building on that is worth more than all the desensitizing in the world


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## Yogiwick

Yes, I do prefer my horses sensitized thank you very much 

The most important thing is to have the horse look to you, not to have the horse not care, and she will get there very quickly I think.

As far as throwing a novice on her I'd say just give her more time, she can learn to relax with you and then she will trust you to allow her to relax with someone else.

Do remember, she was fine when you tried her!


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## Acadianartist

Thanks all. Despite all the technical difficulties I've had with Horse Forum lately, it's times like these that I really appreciate it. While I trust my coach, vet and trimmer (who is actually a wealth of information on nutrition!), it's very reassuring to know others have had similar experiences and that this is normal (hopefully). 

So here are some pictures from tonight for your enjoyment


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## Bondre

I haven't seen a photo of Harley since he was in his off-white winter woolies - he is gorgeous in his slick summer coat! Kodak is cute, she looks like a little tank beside him.


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## Acadianartist

Bondre said:


> I haven't seen a photo of Harley since he was in his off-white winter woolies - he is gorgeous in his slick summer coat! Kodak is cute, she looks like a little tank beside him.


I also think Harley's prettier in the summer. And he was starting to look like a tank too until I pulled them off the grass during the day! I now put them in the paddock during the day with the dutch doors to the barn remaining open at all times so they can go in to rest - that or they lay in the sand in front of their stalls. They go out to pasture at night.


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## Acadianartist

Did some ground work this morning with Kodak. Simple things - led her around, lunged her at the walk and trot both sides, ground tied her (walked all the way around her). She was great. She only pulled back once a little bit when I was leading her and I just ignored it and kept walking. She does tend to want to follow behind me rather than walk beside me, but I prefer that to a horse that rushes out in front of me. 

Funny thing happened: as she was ground tied, a deer suddenly jumped out of the woods right beside the paddock, maybe 20 feet away. It bounded away behind her. She just kind of turned her head slowly towards it and then looked back at me calmly. She was no more flustered by that deer than she would be by a small bird. Didn't move her feet at all. So either 1 - she was calmer because I was on the ground with her rather than on her back (the fact that she likes me out front would tend to support that), or 2 - she's seen plenty of deer and they don't phase her a bit. The latter may well be the case since where she's from, there are tons of deer in the wide-open country and she might have encountered everything from grizzly bears to elk.


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## greentree

3. You are more relaxed, and it did not bother you(even if it startled you, your adrenaline went right back down...), so it did not bother her!
Good work!!


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## Acadianartist

greentree said:


> 3. You are more relaxed, and it did not bother you(even if it startled you, your adrenaline went right back down...), so it did not bother her!
> Good work!!


I'd like to think it was all my doing, but it's not like my adrenaline went up because there was a plastic bag rustling in the wind or my coach picked up a jump standard  In fact, in both those cases AND in the case of the deer, the horse saw the scary thing first. My adrenaline didn't go up when I saw the deer because she didn't spook. My adrenaline does go up when she explodes and sends me flying to the ground, yes  But not before that.


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## jaydee

She's so pretty I'd struggle to give up on her without a fight if she was mine!!
It's a shame that she's been trained to have this 'forced submission' thing rather than through trust and developing a willing desire to learn and please. I think that's why on one hand she can appear to be quite advanced and then on another very green and with some major holes in her training. 
We have wheelbarrows around our place all the time and Lou has no fear of them and if I park one in her doorway when I'm skipping it she's got no worries at all about pushing it over for the fun of it. When I was a schooling her one day DH had put one empty wheelbarrow on top of another empty one that my son had abandoned by the muckheap so he could push them up together and when she spotted it she stopped dead in her tracks and then ran backwards at speed until she was at the farthest point of the manège away from it and then stood there snorting at it


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## Acadianartist

jaydee said:


> We have wheelbarrows around our place all the time and Lou has no fear of them and if I park one in her doorway when I'm skipping it she's got no worries at all about pushing it over for the fun of it. When I was a schooling her one day DH had put one empty wheelbarrow on top of another empty one that my son had abandoned by the muckheap so he could push them up together and when she spotted it she stopped dead in her tracks and then ran backwards at speed until she was at the farthest point of the manège away from it and then stood there snorting at it


:rofl:

They sure like to keep us on our toes don't they!


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## greentree

Acadianartist said:


> I'd like to think it was all my doing, but it's not like my adrenaline went up because there was a plastic bag rustling in the wind or my coach picked up a jump standard  In fact, in both those cases AND in the case of the deer, the horse saw the scary thing first. My adrenaline didn't go up when I saw the deer because she didn't spook. My adrenaline does go up when she explodes and sends me flying to the ground, yes  But not before that.


Sorry....just trying to help. Won't bother again.


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## Acadianartist

greentree said:


> Sorry....just trying to help. Won't bother again.


Didn't mean to offend greentree. I wish it had been because I stayed calm, but sadly, it seems unrelated.


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## jaydee

I'm not usually someone who does much in the way of groundwork with a horse that's broke and been riding for a longish time - other than occasional lungeing - but it did make the biggest difference with Lou in how she reacted to me and how much more settled she became in herself and her tendency to over react to silly things gradually faded away. I also got into clicker training - something else I would have dismissed with scorn at one time - and that also was a tremendous help in training her to accept things like dental work, shots and blood tests without her trying to kill someone


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## Whinnie

I agree with jaydee about groundwork. The purpose here is not to train her, but for both of you to learn to trust and to get to know what to expect. I have had my mare for over 3 years and know her very well. 99% of the time she behaves as I expect. But when a new horse moves in, she is in heat and the weather is just the perfect temperature of coolness, she acts like a totally different horse. It scared me when this happened this spring so I just used my next 3 days with her working on the ground until she settled down and then it was back to normal. I am not looking for a fight or an ambulance ride. I know there are some that say a truly broke horse should act the same in every situation and I would venture to say that those are excellent, confident, experienced riders who could ride a bronc or a runaway and sit perfectly and in balance, so a spook to that rider would be a non-event whereas I would most certainly end up eating dirt. Excellent riders can feel a spook or shy before is actually happens and know how to stop it. I cannot. Yet. I'm working on it.


I have been told and also experienced that it usually takes several months for a horse and rider to adjust to each other. I think Kodak went off the "script" you had written in your head and I know you are disappointed, but she is beautiful, appears to be willing, and I think a little work and time will bring her to where you want to be. I also agree with what was said about a dead broke horse being boring to ride (key word, dead). I think you will learn each other, trust each other with the work and it will all work out. It just won't be this week.


The work I have put in to my mare has made me love her even more.


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## Acadianartist

I agree with all you've said Whinnie, and I like Kodak. She's really warming up to me too and will actually walk up to me just for scratches now! Granted, the flies are horrendous. I think she's a good horse.

My issue is that I wanted a beginner safe horse I could put guests on. My niece, for example, who has done trail riding and a few lessons, but hasn't been around horses for years and will be visiting this summer. Or my daughter or even some of her young friends who have little horse experience. I'm not sure I'll be able to do that now. Maybe I will, maybe I won't. She just wasn't what I was expecting. I'm not afraid of riding her, but I'm not sure I could put a beginner on her. So now I have two horses that are inappropriate for beginners. Oh well... I guess I should just buy a mechanical horse or a statue if I want something 100% quiet. 

I was also hoping my daughter could have a horse to take on trails. I still have hope that Kodak can be that horse eventually, but at the moment, my daughter's not ready to get on her and I wouldn't put her on Kodak either. Again, I was sold a horse that was supposed to be beginner-safe and the buyer knew I was planning to put a child on her. What I have is a frightened horse with anxiety. I will work with her because I think that in a year from now, I'll be back here telling you all about how amazing she is and how much we love her, but for now, she's going to require more time/training than I had expected. So if I'm disappointed, it's not in her - she's a sweet horse with a lot of potential. I'm disappointed in how she was misrepresented to me. 

Sometimes she reminds me of our last dog who came from an abusive situation. He was supposed to be sweet and meek, but within the first week with us, he bit my husband and my son, drawing blood! I almost sent him back, but we decided to work with him and now he's the nicest dog ever. However, we discovered he didn't like men and had seen some domestic violence so we're careful around new men and in situations where the kids are horsing around. Even seeing my husband hug me stresses him out sometimes and he barks whenever my husband and son roughhouse. Of course he was worth the effort, but he came to us with baggage. I only hope Kodak's baggage can be unpacked and overcome.


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## Rain Shadow

Well if you like her so much....you can always put that third stall to use.


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## Jan1975

I completely understand the disappointment as she is really not the horse you were promised. She does sound like a really good horse, though. Maybe in time she will be what you hoped. 

And, yes, that third stall.


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## Whinnie

I understand. Buying from an unknown seller is always a risk. It would be nice if people were honest. You did everything you could to check her out. It is pretty rare for a seller to let you take a horse home for a two week trial which would have helped tremendously. Maybe the seller has a different definition of "beginner safe" 


I wouldn't feel too bad about not providing a horse for visitors, although I see where you are coming from. Maybe they can take lessons from the barn where your daughter goes to be able to ride.


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## LoriF

It took over a month for two of my horses to settle down and be the horses that I originally thought they were. With my first mare, I felt like you are now feeling because I didn't understand. The second one, when she wasn't being like she was before I bought her, I knew that I just have to give her time to settle into the new place, new horses, and new people. The third one, well that's a different story. She can be a whack-a-doo sometimes. But you know what? I knew she was a whack-a-doo when I got her. 
This horse has been with you for sixteen days. I really think that if you and your daughter test rode her with no problems, then it's just a matter of her settling in. Time. Some horses may take a week and some a couple of months, but once they settle, they are fine.


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## Acadianartist

Don't think I hadn't thought of the third stall Jan and Rain! 

But as Whinnie points out, it's a luxury. It's possible Kodak will be safe enough for a semi-beginner in a few weeks, but if not, then that's just how it's going to be. Harley is pretty safe in a paddock so they can always walk around on him. I really don't have the energy to look for a third horse, nor do I think it makes sense to buy a horse that might get ridden 3-4 times a year by a beginner. It could very well stop being beginner-safe if ridden that infrequently.

So for now, we will keep working with Kodak and Harley. 

Had a little adventure last night. The neighbor's horses (the one who used to board Harley) escaped and ran down the road. They weren't hope, so another neighbor came to get me for help. Of course when they spotted their old buddy Harley, they came right into our yard. It still wasn't an easy job to put a halter on them and bring them in, but I managed to get all three away from the road and into my pasture while Harley and Kodak were safely in the paddock. So my herd suddenly more than doubled! And I realized we have the same taste in horse colours  They were pretty appreciative that we had managed to get their horses safely off the road for them when they came home last night!

Here's a pic of the three amigos and our two staring at each other over the fence.


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## Woodhaven

I don't know how much grain you are feeding your horses but I assume since they are out on pasture and not the least bit thin, it will be not much.

When I get a new horse I don't give it much grain, I feel that even if the horse was a little thin it's better until we know each other better and are working well together.

If a new horse did some of the things that Kodak has done, the unexplained spooking,( I"m sure she is not afraid of a wheel barrow, that was just an excuse) I would put that horse to work. I personally feel that most pleasure horses (mine included) are over fed and under worked. They are only asked to work a few hours a week.
I would take her out into the riding area and put her to work, a lot of trotting but not just around the outside, doing loops serpentines, some up and down transitions, 20 M circles, 15M circles, quarter line and some spirals in and out, this way I keep the horse focusing on me as they don't know whats coming next. By doing this you are getting to know her and she will be getting some work on turns etc. I wouldn't worry about her getting tired, a good hard work out would be good for her, as they say " a few wet saddle pads make a big difference".
I realize you can't do this when having a lesson but the day after would be a good time. Then after she has had this, take her out around the place (if you feel safe doing it) and let her cool out and relax so you end on a pleasant note.

I think she is a lovely mare and with some work could be the horse you want, it just might take a little more time than you figured on.


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## Acadianartist

Thanks Woodhaven and no, I am not giving her much grain. Both horses are on hay cubes which are just a vehicle for supplements. Harley was on a pellet feed which I am slowly transitioning away as he gets used to the taste of the new supplements. Kodak is also getting a probiotic because her stool is very loose. 

She didn't spook at a wheelbarrow, she spooked at a plastic bag on a very windy day and she spooked when my coach tried to move a jump standard which was in the shadows so she could set up a jump for my daughter. I do agree with your idea of working her in the paddock. Things have just been nuts this week so I haven't done anything, but may ride her today. It's the last week of school for my kids so there are activities every day. I agree, most pleasure horses don't work nearly hard enough and certainly don't need a hot feed. My goal is to get both horses on Cal Trace gradually and continue to use hay cubes as a vehicle. No more pelleted food. I tried to switch Harley over the winter, but encountered a lot of resistance from his BO (who kept giving him the old feed without telling me) so I gave up until he came home. They certainly don't need calories and in fact, I'm only allowing them to graze in the pasture at night now. During the day, they are in the paddock or in their stalls with the door open. They put on weight quickly from the rich grass.


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## Acadianartist

So I realized I was making excuses not to get back on Kodak after my fall(s) Monday. I sucked it up, took a deep breath, and saddled her up this morning. There is still a fair bit of tension in her when I get on, and my right elbow is really hurting me since Monday (not sure it was the fall or bringing in hay though) so I kept it very relaxed. We just did a bunch of straight lines, circles and serpentines and I focused on keeping her paying attention to me. She tends to want to look all around, but settled in after a bit and just went to work. I find her extremely responsive to slight rein and leg pressure and even seat pressure (and I think you all know I'm not the best rider) so if she can quiet down, she should be a nice horse to ride. Like all of you, I don't really enjoy a horse that just plods along and has a completely numb mouth. I didn't trot because of my bad elbow, and it was a very short session - about 20 minutes. But I felt we got out and kept it positive and happy, which was my goal. I do not want her to have bad associations with being ridden or start to figure out that she can dump her rider. So it was just positive reinforcement, but she didn't spook or react badly to anything (well, there was one little shudder at a leaf, but she kept moving which seems to be key). 

Afterwards I scratched her neck and face and put her out in the paddock with Harley. She came right back over to me as I was filling the water trough, so I gave her pieces of carrots. Again, all positive reinforcements and baby steps. We both need to set ourselves up for success right now so we can build trust. I actually even visualized a nice, relaxing and pleasant ride beforehand because I realized that my mind was envisioning all these horrible scenarios since there was no one home and no one knew I was riding. Don't worry - we didn't do a trail ride today and I did wear my helmet just in case! Anyway, just wanted to let you all know it went well.


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## Avna

ALWAYS wear your helmet just in case! That's why we wear helmets at all. Just saying.


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## karliejaye

That sounds like a very positive ride! Every one of those will get you one step closer to a quiet, settled horse.


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## Acadianartist

Avna said:


> ALWAYS wear your helmet just in case! That's why we wear helmets at all. Just saying.


I always do actually  Didn't mean to make it sound like I put it on especially for Kodak. And I'd like to tell everyone reading this that the first time I fell, I hit my head. My coach's first comment was that it was a good thing I was wearing a helmet! I might not be typing this if I hadn't been wearing it. So yes, wear your helmets!!!


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## Folly

Acadian, I know you ride English now - and I'm quite certain you are a much better (and younger) rider than I am... but just wondered if you had considered a different saddle for these "getting to know you" rides as you and Kodak learn each others' language. I have thankfully not had to ride out very many bad spooks, but my previous mare was a 'spin fast and run for home' type (she was gaited, so her 'bolting' was a beautiful easy to sit foxtrot at least!). My current mare is very solid, but I did ride through a significant spook a couple of weeks ago (it was the first real spook I've experienced with her). I'm pretty sure I would have become unbalanced during the spooks I've been through, if I'd been in a slick saddle.

People love them or hate them, but for now I ride in an inexpensive Abetta synthetic with a grippy suede-like material on the seat. I bought it as a 'get-me-by' while I was riding a number of different horses, but I'm still using it because I love the light weight, the close contact (compared to leather western saddles at least), and the grip. I'm very petite, so the saddle really doesn't seem that much bulkier to me than an English saddle. Anyway, just thought perhaps as a temporary measure (and ultimately as a "guest" saddle), it might be a reasonable bridge. I think you said both you and Kodak have ridden Western? Take this or leave it of course!! I just feel much more confident in this little saddle than in any other one I've used. It tips the odds a bit more in my favor I think.


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## Whinnie

So glad you had a better ride this morning. Everything will be OK. By the way, my mare is pretty calm. She had loose stool when I first got her. I started giving her pysillium to help dry it up. I wasn't sure what was going on, not worms, not ulcers, not feed, nothing that the vet could find. The loose stools cleared up after about 5 weeks. When I moved her to my present barn, it happened again. Then I noticed every time we got a new boarder, she would have a bout. Sometimes it happens when she is in for an extended time because of bad weather. Apparently, she is calm on the outside but internalizes anxiety. Could be the same for Kodak. Try pysillium for 2 to 4 weeks and see if it helps. I bought a big bucket because I have to use it occasionally. The vet said you could feed it every day and it wouldn't hurt her. Even if it is just the change in grass, it will dry her up.


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## Acadianartist

Folly said:


> Acadian, I know you ride English now - and I'm quite certain you are a much better (and younger) rider than I am... but just wondered if you had considered a different saddle for these "getting to know you" rides as you and Kodak learn each others' language. I have thankfully not had to ride out very many bad spooks, but my previous mare was a 'spin fast and run for home' type (she was gaited, so her 'bolting' was a beautiful easy to sit foxtrot at least!). My current mare is very solid, but I did ride through a significant spook a couple of weeks ago (it was the first real spook I've experienced with her). I'm pretty sure I would have become unbalanced during the spooks I've been through, if I'd been in a slick saddle.
> 
> People love them or hate them, but for now I ride in an inexpensive Abetta synthetic with a grippy suede-like material on the seat. I bought it as a 'get-me-by' while I was riding a number of different horses, but I'm still using it because I love the light weight, the close contact (compared to leather western saddles at least), and the grip. I'm very petite, so the saddle really doesn't seem that much bulkier to me than an English saddle. Anyway, just thought perhaps as a temporary measure (and ultimately as a "guest" saddle), it might be a reasonable bridge. I think you said both you and Kodak have ridden Western? Take this or leave it of course!! I just feel much more confident in this little saddle than in any other one I've used. It tips the odds a bit more in my favor I think.


Folly, you do realize that you've just given me an excuse to buy a fourth saddle right? 

I LOVE that saddle! It looks like it would work great on trail rides too. I was trying to figure out how to attach saddle bags to my English saddle and was thinking I'd like a Western saddle for less experienced guest riders. But the weight and bulk of most Western saddles turns me off. I really like how that one looks and it sounds like it has the comfort and safety of a Western saddle without the bulk. My only concern would be the stirrups because Western stirrup leathers kill my knees. I wonder if I could switch them out for English stirrup leathers? 

When I came off, I was riding on a very slick close contact jumping saddle. So yes, not much to hold onto! 

Thanks!


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## Acadianartist

Whinnie said:


> So glad you had a better ride this morning. Everything will be OK. By the way, my mare is pretty calm. She had loose stool when I first got her. I started giving her pysillium to help dry it up. I wasn't sure what was going on, not worms, not ulcers, not feed, nothing that the vet could find. The loose stools cleared up after about 5 weeks. When I moved her to my present barn, it happened again. Then I noticed every time we got a new boarder, she would have a bout. Sometimes it happens when she is in for an extended time because of bad weather. Apparently, she is calm on the outside but internalizes anxiety. Could be the same for Kodak. Try pysillium for 2 to 4 weeks and see if it helps. I bought a big bucket because I have to use it occasionally. The vet said you could feed it every day and it wouldn't hurt her. Even if it is just the change in grass, it will dry her up.


Thanks! I have her on a probiotic, but if it doesn't go away in a couple of months I'll try the psyllium. Harley also had loose stool for a long time when I first had him, but now, it's fine. I put him on the same probiotic I'm giving to Kodak. It will become loose again if we're at a show, or when I moved him here to his new barn, but it's normal again now. 

Kodak was on beet pulp and hay cubes before she came here. Had some grass, but not a lot. Here, she is on hay cubes, a pelleted feed I'm phasing out (Harley was on it so I kept him on), supplements and grass. I think the rich grass affected her too since her stool is very green. 

This is eerily reminiscent of my conversations with other new parents when I had my first baby... :eek_color:


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## Folly

Acadianartist said:


> Folly, you do realize that you've just given me an excuse to buy a fourth saddle right?
> 
> I LOVE that saddle! It looks like it would work great on trail rides too. I was trying to figure out how to attach saddle bags to my English saddle and was thinking I'd like a Western saddle for less experienced guest riders. But the weight and bulk of most Western saddles turns me off. I really like how that one looks and it sounds like it has the comfort and safety of a Western saddle without the bulk. My only concern would be the stirrups because Western stirrup leathers kill my knees. I wonder if I could switch them out for English stirrup leathers?
> 
> When I came off, I was riding on a very slick close contact jumping saddle. So yes, not much to hold onto!
> 
> Thanks!


I'm very much a 'form follows function' type - and I do love this saddle. If I'm going to talk you into a new saddle, at least it'a a ridiculously inexpensive one! I think I paid $350 or so for mine new (and reviews were good, so I went for it). I believe you would be surprised at how comfortable the stirrup "leathers" are... they are very durable washable fabric (like the stuff modern luggage is made of) and although they won't hold a turn, they are so soft it's a non issue for me (yes, I know what you mean... I've ridden in leather ones that just had my knees aching). I've also seen people use an endurance stirrup that has a turner on it. BTW, lots of endurance riders use these Abettas. Mine is a "trail saddle" which I chose because it comes in Western size 14" (which is perfect for me - I'm 5' tall and aroung 105 lbs). I like the endurance models a lot (and they don't have horns), but they start at 15" western measure. I didn't like the stirrups that shipped with it, so replaced with aluminum. I've seen people ask about replacing the stirrup leathers with English, but the consensus seems to be that it would be cost prohibitive, and change the 'balance'.


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## Folly

... Meant to add that it's only fair, since you are responsible for the fact that I'm probably going to be buying one of those beta biothane halter/clip on bridle sets soon (like I really need another bridle.....) Ha!


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## Acadianartist

Haha... yes, I've yet to order the biothane, but have narrowed it down to two. Now I have to wait to see which saddle I get for Kodak so I can have the overlay match it 

So I looked at the Abetta saddles and yes, they are cheap. I'll have to order it online since there's no chance of finding one locally. I'm the same height as you, but weigh slightly more (about 120). I think I could probably get away with the 15". But how the heck do you figure out how to fit the horse? I've got English measurements down to a science, but I haven't gone Western in a long time. 

I remain concerned about the fenders. I have bad knees and was so relieved when riding did not affect my knees at all. Anytime I've used a Western saddle, my knees were killing me after so it's something I'll have to consider. I've read about people replacing them with English leathers in other forums so it's not impossible... will do more reading.


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## knightrider

I also changed to a Western saddle when I started my young colt Chorro who would leap sideways 8 feet and then spin bolt. I discovered I could stay in the saddle much better with a "bear claw" barrel racing saddle. It has a high cantle and the front curves around to hold you in around the barrels. I was an English rider all the way back then, but I got tired of coming off him.

When my daughter started actually riding her 3 year old filly, I bought a "bear claw" saddle for her too, as the filly at times explodes into rearing, bucking, and bolting.

I own one of the endurance Abettas, which are quite comfortable, but they are not as secure as the barrel racing saddles. It's pretty hard to come out of those barrel saddles. Also, for me (not for my daughter), a little bit hard getting into them, the cantle is so high. I also ride Chorro in Australian saddles, but have been known to come off him in everything but the bear claw saddle. By the way, he is 11 now, and rarely spooks at all, is quite reliable. It just took him a long time to settle down.


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## Folly

I understand about the fenders and why you want to stick with what works. 

Can't help with the fit - I got lucky, and it seems to work great on the horses I've ridden (plus, we don't do really rigorous riding). I think it's a combination of the shape of the bars on this saddle, plus the fact that it's so short... it settles onto their backs nicely. But obviously, that's a consideration and I'm not trying to minimize it. Next year I'll likely be buying a nice leather saddle and really focusing on fit... I may go with an endurance type leather saddle since I'm so spoiled to the light weight tree (I actually have a decent 15" leather barrel saddle and it's fine... but I like the fit and sleekness of the abetta so much more that I've stopped using it). 

If interested though, here are turners...


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## ChitChatChet

Acadianartist said:


> It happened so very fast. One minute I was on a horse, the next, on the ground. My daughter, who watched it all, described my first fall as a Superman jump. I landed on my side with one arm outstretched. I remember she started to run towards the fence, then turned quickly as I was trying to pull back on the reins. I went flying on the turn. The second time I just remember my coach yelling at me to sit back, but I was off her in a split second again.
> 
> I'm in an English saddle.


I was just there. WOW My friends pony is lightening fast. One second I was up on the pony , next I was picking dirt out of my nose.

Have found for a couple of our horses that a magnesium supplement has really helped take the edge off.


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## Acadianartist

Had another good ride on Kodak tonight. She was a bit spooky when I tacked her up, trying to jerk her head back, but nothing really major. I think the flies really get to them this time of year (we have really big ones that take a chunk of skin) so maybe that had something to do with it. Or maybe she was testing me. While I want to be patient with her, I also don't want to coddle her so much that it encourages her nonsense. So I just kind of ignored it. And really, it didn't have that panicky look to it like when she first came here. It was like a half-hearted attempt to get out of working. 

I walked her in the paddock for a bit, and then we headed out onto the short trail in the woods around our property. She spooked once in the paddock - at a bird singing!!! honestly, I think she's looking for excuses now. But it wasn't a major spook and I was on my toes this time so managed to get control of her quickly. I decided to take her on the trail despite this. She was fine. She did walk a bit fast, gawking all around, but otherwise, I didn't have any real issues. There were some trucks or ATVs revving their engines in the distance and she didn't like that much, but seemed to get over it. We rode beside the road (but far enough to be safe) and let a few cars and trucks go by and she was fine. 

After the trail ride, I decided to trot her a bit in the paddock. We're still struggling with that one. I ask for the trot by gently nudging her with my legs and clucking. She ignores it. I nudge and cluck again, slightly more obviously, nothing. I nudge harder and cluck and she wants to launch into a canter. I'm clearly not making myself understood. We'll work on it again with the coach on Monday I guess. I did let her trot a bit on the trail and she was fine. She can do a nice, gentle, easy-to-ride trot when she wants to. But she has a hard time with it in the paddock. 

Harley was in the barn the whole time and called out to her, but she didn't call back. He was not happy with me for leaving him behind. I kind of feel bad now and promised to ride him next time. 

P.S. ChitChatChet, sorry you fell, but I'm glad I'm not the only one. Will give Kodak a bit more time, but if she doesn't calm her nerves, I may look into supplements. Especially if the spookiness is tied to her cycle. She "squirted" again tonight, but if I had to guess, I'd say she is at the end of her heat. She's not showing her butt to Harley anymore.


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## Acadianartist

Folly said:


> If interested though, here are turners...


Ok, that is cool. It might just work! As long as the stirrups are at the correct angle for my leg, it shouldn't affect my knees. Thanks for showing me these! I've been looking for Abetta synthetic saddles, but still have a lot of questions about sizing, etc. before I go ahead and order one.


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## Jan1975

It sounds like maybe she's used to a different cue for trot?


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## Folly

Acadianartist said:


> Ok, that is cool. It might just work! As long as the stirrups are at the correct angle for my leg, it shouldn't affect my knees. Thanks for showing me these! I've been looking for Abetta synthetic saddles, but still have a lot of questions about sizing, etc. before I go ahead and order one.


Understand completely! honestly, I was more just wondering if a more secure saddle might make the difference between becoming unseated... and being able to ride it out in order to have time to correct things from the saddle (and if you don't come off, it is bound to seem like less of an event!). Just was mentioning what was working for me at the moment. There are a hundred different options.


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## Acadianartist

Jan1975 said:


> It sounds like maybe she's used to a different cue for trot?


That's what I was wondering... if anyone has any ideas, I'd love to hear them. Coach is English all the way, but I'll ask her as well.


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## Acadianartist

Folly said:


> Understand completely! honestly, I was more just wondering if a more secure saddle might make the difference between becoming unseated... and being able to ride it out in order to have time to correct things from the saddle (and if you don't come off, it is bound to seem like less of an event!). Just was mentioning what was working for me at the moment. There are a hundred different options.


Well, I may very well get an Abetta saddle, just trying to figure out what will fit Kodak. I wasn't really keen on riding her in the jumping saddle in the long term anyway - I've just been using it because it fits her. 

It's not just having a more secure seat I'm concerned about, it's comfort, and the endurance saddles are made for comfort, so it's very likely that's the direction I'll go in. I just need to figure out sizing for Kodak and decide which one I want to buy!!! My trimmer does a lot of trail riding and rides in some kind of endurance saddle so I'll ask her about hers too. It would be nice for me to be able to see one in person and maybe even sit in it.


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## Rain Shadow

This might sound odd but I've found with horses that have been cowboyed with harsh spurs that if you sorta roll your heel along their sides it works better. 

That's what Trixie was trained to for a cue. I can kick and nudge her all I want, but rolling my heel and she's very responsive. I've been working on fixing it. She's not the only one I've ridden with that issue.


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## Textan49

jaydee said:


> She's a really sweet mare and though by their own admittance she's been bullied into submission at least it hasn't turned her 'nasty' and defensive, just slightly fearful so I think there's hope for her and I wouldn't give up too quickly
> Gaining her trust and building on that is worth more than all the desensitizing in the world


I agree. It sounds like she has good reason not to completely trust people and it might take a short or longer time to gain her trust. Once she does, I think these issues will start to go away. I only work on desensitizing as the issues come up and never set out to condition a horse to as many spooky things that I can think of all at once.. When it's possible the more you can remain calm when a horse spooks, the better. That means riding focused on the horse, thinking positively, but being prepared.


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## jaydee

I don't think she's been trained to a different cue to trot/go, based on that video of the guy who sold her riding her on the trails I would say that her training just totally lacks refinement, his legs were banging away at her all the time, you got the feeling that if he stopped kicking she stopped moving and that was something I found in almost all of the western horses I tried when I was horse hunting. What you want is for the horse to go when you ask it to go and keep going at that speed/pace until you ask it to do something else and that's a thing that you start on the lunge - you ask the horse to trot (for example) and you don't keep on telling it to trot or cracking the whip at it once it is trotting or that starts a habit for it to think that unless its constantly being told to trot it can stop
If your legs are always kicking the horse eventually gets 'numbed' to it
If you are going to keep her then you probably need to spend some time going right back to basics and almost rebreaking her


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## Textan49

jaydee said:


> I don't think she's been trained to a different cue to trot/go, based on that video of the guy who sold her riding her on the trails I would say that her training just totally lacks refinement, his legs were banging away at her all the time, you got the feeling that if he stopped kicking she stopped moving and that was something I found in almost all of the western horses I tried when I was horse hunting. What you want is for the horse to go when you ask it to go and keep going at that speed/pace until you ask it to do something else and that's a thing that you start on the lunge - you ask the horse to trot (for example) and you don't keep on telling it to trot or cracking the whip at it once it is trotting or that starts a habit for it to think that unless its constantly being told to trot it can stop
> If your legs are always kicking the horse eventually gets 'numbed' to it
> If you are going to keep her then you probably need to spend some time going right back to basics and almost rebreaking her



Rebreaking may sound like a lot of effort, but actually it is not. I think of it like studying for an exam. Some of the material you know well and can skim over quickly and you only need to concentrate on what you don't know. It is a matter of filling in missing pieces for the horse. .


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## Smilie

jaydee said:


> I don't think she's been trained to a different cue to trot/go, based on that video of the guy who sold her riding her on the trails I would say that her training just totally lacks refinement, his legs were banging away at her all the time, you got the feeling that if he stopped kicking she stopped moving and that was something I found in almost all of the western horses I tried when I was horse hunting. What you want is for the horse to go when you ask it to go and keep going at that speed/pace until you ask it to do something else and that's a thing that you start on the lunge - you ask the horse to trot (for example) and you don't keep on telling it to trot or cracking the whip at it once it is trotting or that starts a habit for it to think that unless its constantly being told to trot it can stop
> If your legs are always kicking the horse eventually gets 'numbed' to it
> If you are going to keep her then you probably need to spend some time going right back to basics and almost rebreaking her


WOw,d id you ever try some poorly trained western horses, Jaydee!.
Mine, and countless other well trained western horses, sure don't need constant kicking, nor even constant leg pressure to keep moving, as they learn to stay in the gait asked for, until told otherwise.
What a generalization!
Yes, based on that trail riding video, and even the first video, she lacks refinement, but in that first video,even where the horse is being ridden with some sort of draw reins, she is not being kicked constantly to be kept going
Ican assure you Jaydee, inspite of you, vast and extensive' Experience' in western horse shopping, a well trained western horse needs no more constant kicking then a well trained English horse!~!!!!Lets get real!


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## Smilie

I can't even find those videos now, but I re call a video when she was just green, I assume, ridden by her original owner, where she appeared to have a decent start, inspite of the fact I noticed draw reins and that the rider was using the walls to guide her.
I assume she then was sold, to owners that just used her for various activities, getting her more 'broke', but not necessarily putting refinements on her- just using her as a'using horse'
Now, if there are other videos I am missing, would love to see a link to them, as I am going by memory
The Op admits to having been away from horses, and I have yet to see where someone that perhaps knows how to really ride this horse, tried her out, to see where holes might be, or to find out exactly how much she knows, versus perhaps the OP's in experience causing cue confusion for the horse.
When ahorse that has worked cattle, been ridden out, and the rider thinks the horse needs , 'desensitization', then I have to question as to how well that rider can determine the training on that horse
This is in no way meant to be a negative comment, just a reality check.
We ssold a horse, obviously trained western, that was very responsive, having been used in western riding, reining and cow work.
HE Went to ahome, where that youth was working with an English coach. Got a phone call, as they could not ride the horse and keep him on the rail, and we were told that he would suddenly 'go up a bit', and change directions.
Went to see the horse, and , first, they were riding with way too much contact, and were actually accidentally cuing him for a rollback at times
My son got on, riding with the English tack on the hrose, and he went really well on the rail, at all gaits. The mother remarked that it was the best they had seen him go, since buying him
Point being, she could well be ahorse that has poor foundation in training, period-not english versus western, OR the OP does not know how to ride the horse.
THAT is why I am still waiting for the assessment of this horse, which should haev been done BEFORE buying her, by an experienced western rider, that knows how to evaluate this horse.
A Horse does not try to lope when asked to trot, unless that horse is being cued incorrectly, or is being 'trapped' between rein contact and legs


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## Acadianartist

Rain Shadow said:


> This might sound odd but I've found with horses that have been cowboyed with harsh spurs that if you sorta roll your heel along their sides it works better.
> 
> That's what Trixie was trained to for a cue. I can kick and nudge her all I want, but rolling my heel and she's very responsive. I've been working on fixing it. She's not the only one I've ridden with that issue.


Thanks! Will try that!


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## Acadianartist

Smilie said:


> I can't even find those videos now, but I re call a video when she was just green, I assume, ridden by her original owner, where she appeared to have a decent start, inspite of the fact I noticed draw reins and that the rider was using the walls to guide her.
> I assume she then was sold, to owners that just used her for various activities, getting her more 'broke', but not necessarily putting refinements on her- just using her as a'using horse'
> Now, if there are other videos I am missing, would love to see a link to them, as I am going by memory
> The Op admits to having been away from horses, and I have yet to see where someone that perhaps knows how to really ride this horse, tried her out, to see where holes might be, or to find out exactly how much she knows, versus perhaps the OP's in experience causing cue confusion for the horse.
> When ahorse that has worked cattle, been ridden out, and the rider thinks the horse needs , 'desensitization', then I have to question as to how well that rider can determine the training on that horse
> This is in no way meant to be a negative comment, just a reality check.
> We ssold a horse, obviously trained western, that was very responsive, having been used in western riding, reining and cow work.
> HE Went to ahome, where that youth was working with an English coach. Got a phone call, as they could not ride the horse and keep him on the rail, and we were told that he would suddenly 'go up a bit', and change directions.
> Went to see the horse, and , first, they were riding with way too much contact, and were actually accidentally cuing him for a rollback at times
> My son got on, riding with the English tack on the hrose, and he went really well on the rail, at all gaits. The mother remarked that it was the best they had seen him go, since buying him
> Point being, she could well be ahorse that has poor foundation in training, period-not english versus western, OR the OP does not know how to ride the horse.
> THAT is why I am still waiting for the assessment of this horse, which should haev been done BEFORE buying her, by an experienced western rider, that knows how to evaluate this horse.
> A Horse does not try to lope when asked to trot, unless that horse is being cued incorrectly, or is being 'trapped' between rein contact and legs


Wow, heated debates sure get started easily in this forum. 

Let me clear up a few things. 

1 - I do NOT have to keep banging her with my leg to keep her moving. Not in the slightest. I have no idea why the guy was doing that in the video. She happily moves along at a nice pace without any constant prompting. I also ride her in a very loose rein. It's something my coach considers a bad habit from my Western days, but for Kodak, I think it works. 

2 - She has been ridden by a very experienced horsewoman. My coach got on her. Felt the horse seemed green in some ways, but fine in other ways. Also felt she was a good mare that was just very stressed by her new environment. She encouraged me to give her time and not give up on her. Her assessment is that she doesn't have the nicest movements (ie, if I were looking for a show horse, she wouldn't be it), but has a good temperament. 

3 - I may not have expressed myself clearly when I said she wants to canter/ lope when asked to trot. What I should have said is that she will actually start trotting, accelerate, and THEN start to canter. She has the nicest rolling, easy canter so I look forward to riding it, but I need to work out the trotting issue. The first time I rode her, it was with high stirrups. I don't think she was used to feeling a leg up against her (despite the guy banging his leg in the video - or maybe it was the constant pressure she was reacting to) and she was much more likely to speed up. So the second time, I rode her with very loose stirrups and that seemed to work better for her. If you think about it, the Western fenders create much more of a barrier between the horse and the leg than the super thin strip of leather on an English saddle. I felt like she was happier when my leg wasn't right up against her flank. 

As you like to point out Smilie, I am not a seasoned rider. Which is why I've repeatedly said that I was trying to buy a beginner-friendly horse (I don't consider myself a beginner, but I wanted a really safe horse). However, what I lack in skill, I think I make up in patience and determination. I also have resources so it's not like I'm alone in my backyard trying to figure this out. That said, asking questions in a much larger community like this is beneficial because amid the abundance of opinion, there are always some good ones.


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## Acadianartist

Links to the videos just in case you can pick up something that would help me:


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## sarahfromsc

She looks very sensible, actually.

I think you and your trainer can get her figured out.


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## Smilie

In the first video, she appears to be ayoung horse, started under saddle, videoed for saLE
Definately not finished by any means, but a colt with a decent start, who picks up the trot easily, and does not need to be 'peddled to maintain it
In the second video, that cowboy is driving me nuts with that constant leg bumping, but he seems to be doing it not to maintain any gait, but to encourage her to go forward, passing objects like tractors, and going down a slight slope on the trail, rather then stalling out
No finesse in any of his riding, but I also don't see any blatant cowboying


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## Smilie

Not in the least slighting your riding experience, just that you might not be at apoint to be able to assess here correctly
Now that you have added your coaches assessment, plus the fact that you used her opinion in buying the horse, shows me that you are doing exactly what you should be doing, and I actually agree with what your coach has said.
Yes, she is not a great mover, and while she has experience in some facets, she is green, far as any real refinement in gaits or picking up transitions
It also appears like she has been allowed to just fall into a lope out of forward momentum, and in fact, has not really been taught any kind of collected type of transitions.
There are holes you will need to fill in. Okay for ahorse to progress to riding with a loose rein, but first, that horse should be at apoint where he can keep frame and collection, off of seat and legs alone, when asked to do so
Thus, without seeing how she was ridden,, since being bought from original owner, I would suspect that she was never taught first to move collected , when asked to do , and for that you haev to ride with contact, until you reach a point where you can ride on aloose rein, yet the horse can carry himself , keep frame and collection, off of seat and legs alone.
This appears to be missing in this horse


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## Smilie

for instance, not th ebest example of horsemanship, but one I found quickly, this late at night.
What the main point Is, in posting this video, is the fact that the horse is shown on aloose rein, but unlike your horse, has learned to carry himself in frame, execute transitions in frame, on aloose rein
Very easy to ride a horse on aloose rein-my hubby does it all the time on his trial horse, but it takes more training finesse to have ahorse work on aloose rein, after he has learned to carry himself without that rein support.
I think your horse is missing that element


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## Acadianartist

Thank you Smilie. I think your assessment is probably bang-on. She probably has not learned to collect herself. We certainly don't see her doing so in the videos. That said, is it a huge problem for a horse that will be used on trails? 

And I agree, I've seen people ride with a great deal of finesse on a very loose rein. Loose rein vs. full contact doesn't dictate how well a horse performs. At this point, I am giving her enough rein that she doesn't feel me tugging at her mouth, but not enough that I can't keep control of her if she spooks again. 

The bottom line is that I just want a safe, quiet horse. I really don't care what her movements look like or how much finesse she has. It would have been nice to have a second horse for my daughter to show eventually, but clearly, that's not Kodak. She will still have a place in my barn as long as she can become the sweet, quiet horse I thought I was buying. And, well, Harley's quite taken with her


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## jaydee

I don't think that you should be dismissing her as an English show horse for your daughter, she's 7 years old - I think that's right? Still a baby. I've bought unbroken horses that were older than that and had them competing at top level in the UK the following year and in small local shows the same year. She has the basics, she's nice natured and mostly calm about things, there's no reason at all why she shouldn't progress very quickly with correct training.
She's starting from a much better place than Lou was and she was an older horse when I bought her but she can now ride a nice dressage test, pop over show jumps etc with no worries. She'll never be as responsive to the leg cues as my other horse's are but she does have slightly lazier attitude than they do so not all of that is down to the 'kick kick kick' style she was trained in.


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## Acadianartist

jaydee said:


> I don't think that you should be dismissing her as an English show horse for your daughter, she's 7 years old - I think that's right? Still a baby. I've bought unbroken horses that were older than that and had them competing at top level in the UK the following year and in small local shows the same year. She has the basics, she's nice natured and mostly calm about things, there's no reason at all why she shouldn't progress very quickly with correct training.
> She's starting from a much better place than Lou was and she was an older horse when I bought her but she can now ride a nice dressage test, pop over show jumps etc with no worries. She'll never be as responsive to the leg cues as my other horse's are but she does have slightly lazier attitude than they do so not all of that is down to the 'kick kick kick' style she was trained in.


She just turned 10. I suppose we could invest some training in her, but I'm not sure her natural movements will ever be "correct" enough. Though I'm no expert on the matter... but Harley is so showy, he'll be hard to replace. I watch them both running around the pasture at dusk and Harley is beautiful and graceful, but Kodak, not so much  

Who knows what the future brings. For now though, Kodak needs to be at least a quiet, safe horse if she's going to stay with us at bare minimum. Otherwise, I don't care how much training we put into her, I can't keep a horse I don't trust. 

Harley is a handful at the canter and on trails, but I trust him. He's never exploded under me or caused me to fall. I've never felt he was out of control (though it's come close). I understand there are never any guarantees with any horse, but there needs to be a certain level of trust.


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## jenkat86

Commenting on the cue for trot. Are you riding her in spurs? If she doesn't respond to the cue of "rolling up" like another poster suggested, (I suspect she will try to go into a lope) try squeezing with both legs and cluck, and hold the squeeze while pushing forward with your seat until you get the movement you want. 

...does that make any sense? ...it's hard to put into words.


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## greentree

there is no reason that your daughter could not turn the lovely Kodak into a decent dressage or hunt seat horse! She is a different style than Harley, yes, but it is apples and oranges.....


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## Acadianartist

jenkat86 said:


> Commenting on the cue for trot. Are you riding her in spurs? If she doesn't respond to the cue of "rolling up" like another poster suggested, (I suspect she will try to go into a lope) try squeezing with both legs and cluck, and hold the squeeze while pushing forward with your seat until you get the movement you want.
> 
> ...does that make any sense? ...it's hard to put into words.


Makes total sense  And I was thinking maybe that's what I'm doing wrong. Harley is so responsive that I just barely touch him and stop but maybe with Kodak I need to keep the pressure on. And no, I'm not riding Kodak in spurs. 

I didn't ride her tonight for our lesson because my daughter is getting ready for a show and really needed to work on her figure 8s so I told the coach she could use both our times. Will keep riding her on my own though.


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## Yogiwick

I don't see anything wrong with her movement? :shrug:


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## trailhorserider

Yogiwick said:


> I don't see anything wrong with her movement?


Me neither. A trail horse does NOT need to move like a western pleasure horse. (And although nice, there are a ton of trail riders and trail horses who don't know a thing about collection). Who made western pleasure the gold standard anyway? I thought the western pleasure horse was "okay" until he started to lope. I think I've felt a lope like that once or twice and kicked the horse out of it. :wink:

Anyway, I realize I am not at the high-end of the horse market, but just about any horse I have ever owned, beginner safe or not, would have spooked at someone carrying a jump standard or a flying plastic bag. If a horse hasn't seen those things often before they are very scary. A flying plastic bag (not attached to anything, just flying in the breeze) would probably be one of the scariest things I could imagine encountering on the trail. My horses are good with cars, tractors, elk, even bears, but I would not want to encounter a free-flying plastic bag! I can guarantee you they would spook. (And I've even carried balloons home on one of them).

One of the best ways to get a horse used to plastic bags (if you so desire) is to carry treats in them. Then the horse looks forward to the rustle of plastic because he knows treats come out of them. But I still wouldn't count on them to hold their ground to a free flying bag. :wink:

I also agree with the poster or posters who suggested you might try western, at least while you get to know the horse. With my green horse I came off 3 times but I don't like hitting the ground, so I bought bucking rolls, ******, and a sheepskin seat saver for my slick-fork saddle. Between those 3 things I can pretty much ride out anything within reason. And a good trainer I know rides in a rough-out saddle, bucking rolls and chaps. I guess what I'm saying is, the saddle CAN make a big difference in how well you stick to the horse.

Bighorn makes a nice cordura synthetic saddle. They are my favorite brand of cordura as a matter of fact. I doubt you will have knee troubles with a cordura because the stirrup "leathers" turn so easy compared to a leather saddle. But you could always replace them with english leathers if you wanted to. I know at least on the Bighorn I used to own, you can get your hands up under the tree because the fabric is so soft and flexible.

Best of luck. Give her a little time and maybe buy a western saddle for guests and you can also use it in the "getting to know you" phase. And don't worry that she doesn't move like a western pleasure horse. Not the gold standard by any means. Most people find it a turn-off.


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## Smilie

No, a trail horse does not need to learn collection< BUT, the response was to the fact that she trots faster and faster into a lope transition,is pretty unresponsive to light leg aids, far as [picking up the trot , and then just sort of falls into it.
That is a green or unrefined method of executing transitions, and it thew OP wants better response, smoother transitions, the horse doe shave to learn to drive up into them from behind, versus just falling into them out of forward momentum
Far as movement, a lot will be improved once the horse is not moving strung out, and also gain cadence-again, that takes some more training then just getting ahorse solid riding out.
Hubby does not show, and his horse trots when asked, but does not hold a gait until told otherwise, does not do smooth one step transitions, does not respond to invisible leg cues-and that is fine, for his purpose, but I assumed that the OP wants more finesse then that, thus that example, which is of horsemanship, not western pl, but could be any event where a horse has to be soft in his entire body, responding instantly to invisible leg cues


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## Smilie

I used the horsemanship video, because it shows transitions, which the Op was asking about, but I could as well have used a trail competition horse, a reiner or an English horse
Point being, for great transitions you need both ahorse very light to leg aids, and one that is giving in the face and poll, while driving up from behind
Never once said a recreational trail horse must know collection, as I have ridden many that never had that put on them, BUT watching those videos of the horse being ridden, for what the OP was asking about, that is what is missing
Has nothing to do with the de sensitizing or spooking part!


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## Smilie

You might need to ride her in spurs, correctly, until she becomes light.
Using spurs correctly, avoids ever getting into that obvious leg movement, required to keep ahorse going.
To use spurs correctly, you first need ahorse that understands leg aids, and you must have enough of an independant seat to keep those spurs off the horse, unless you wish to apply them
Thus, ask with light leg, and if the horse fails to respond, versus bumping with legs, harder and harder, as seen in that video, you add just enough spur pressure to get the desired response. Next time, you again ask with light leg alone.
A horse soon learns you ride with spurs, and will thus respond to light leg alone, so you never need to go those spurs
This gives horse a reason to respond to light legs alone


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## Acadianartist

Trailhorserider - thanks for the reassurance that most horses would have spooked at the bag. She also spooked at a bird squacking a couple of days ago, but it wasn't a bad spook and I was able to stay on.

I am looking for a better saddle (you may have seen my other thread on that). However, given that I'm going to have to order something online, I figure I might as well get something I can use for trail riding too. It will likely take a couple of weeks or more so in the meantime, I'm going to have to ride her in what I have. 

As for her movement, I think it's fine for a trail horse, but I don't think she would look nice in a Hunter/Jumper ring which is what my daughter does. Maybe that can change in time, who knows. But I'm no trainer and am not too keen on spending thousands of dollars on her when Harley does such a great job of it. 

Smilie - yes, I'd prefer that she responds to more gentle cues. That's just how I like to ride. It's not really about "invisible" cues for me (but I understand what you're saying), but about having good communication with my horse. I don't really like to bang on a horse. I think she just needs to understand what I'm asking of her. I wrote to the person who sold her to me, asking if they were using a different cue. The problem is that this person hardly rode her - she really just brokered the deal. The guy you see riding her is this person's dad who buys horses out west and brings them here to sell. He only had her for about a month. So neither of them really knows this horse that well.


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## carshon

Acadian- I think you are doing well with her. Getting used to a different horse can be a challenge. But it is a good challenge. The more you ride her the more she will respond to your way of riding. So how the others may have rode her is not really that important. Just keep taking lessons. keep working with her.

it is all a process. You don't bring a dog from Germany home and give it commands in Portuguese and expect it to respond. Yes it is the same command but the language is different. This is where you are with Kodak- keep building on your language and it will work out.


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## jaydee

I'm getting a bit confused now
I thought you were saying that you couldn't keep her going at the trot?
Then you say that she responds well to your leg and doesn't need constantly 'kicking' to keep her going
Which one is it?
It's probably time to sit down and have a really good think about what you want to do with her because to retrain her you need to have your heart 100% in doing it, through the good and the bad moments. If every time she has a set back you get worried and lose faith in her its not going to be any good for you or for the horse
She does seem to have holes in her training and can be unpredictable so maybe she'd be better off in a more experienced western riding home rather than you change all of your ideals to suit her?


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## Acadianartist

jaydee said:


> I'm getting a bit confused now
> I thought you were saying that you couldn't keep her going at the trot?
> Then you say that she responds well to your leg and doesn't need constantly 'kicking' to keep her going
> Which one is it?
> It's probably time to sit down and have a really good think about what you want to do with her because to retrain her you need to have your heart 100% in doing it, through the good and the bad moments. If every time she has a set back you get worried and lose faith in her its not going to be any good for you or for the horse
> She does seem to have holes in her training and can be unpredictable so maybe she'd be better off in a more experienced western riding home rather than you change all of your ideals to suit her?


Sorry if I wasn't clear Jaydee. When I said I was struggling to keep her at the trot, I didn't mean that she would go back to a walk. I meant that she accelerates and wants to break into a canter. But I am able to keep her at a trot, it's just that I'd like a nice slow, consistent trot. I have no trouble keeping her going and have no idea why the guy kept kicking her in the video. It's totally unnecessary. I'm just looking for a more relaxed trot. I can get her to relax at the walk, but it feels like she gets stressed again when she starts to trot. 

And selling her has certainly occurred to me. But I feel it's a little early to make that decision. Based on the input I've gotten so far from my coach and other horsepeople who have met her, she appears to have a good nature and will hopefully settle down. I'd like to give her a chance to do so before sending her on her way. This horse has been through four or five homes in the last couple of months. Maybe she just needs a little stability. 

Ideals are nice, but I don't think there are very many ideal horses out there. Even Harley's not perfect (don't tell him I said that  ) and I adore him. Don't forget how much time it took me and how many horses I had to look at before finding Kodak. Sadly, well trained beginner-safe horses are not common around here. Maybe Kodak can become the horse I want her to be in time. In a few months, if she doesn't improve, it will be time to consider other options. Here she is having quiet time with Harley this morning. She is definitely relaxing more each day. Hopefully that will start to show under saddle soon.


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## trailhorserider

Smilie said:


> No, a trail horse does not need to learn collection< BUT, the response was to the fact that she trots faster and faster into a lope transition,is pretty unresponsive to light leg aids, far as [picking up the trot , and then just sort of falls into it.
> That is a green or unrefined method of executing transitions, and it thew OP wants better response, smoother transitions, the horse doe shave to learn to drive up into them from behind, versus just falling into them out of forward momentum
> Far as movement, a lot will be improved once the horse is not moving strung out, and also gain cadence-again, that takes some more training then just getting ahorse solid riding out.
> Hubby does not show, and his horse trots when asked, but does not hold a gait until told otherwise, does not do smooth one step transitions, does not respond to invisible leg cues-and that is fine, for his purpose, but I assumed that the OP wants more finesse then that, thus that example, which is of horsemanship, not western pl, but could be any event where a horse has to be soft in his entire body, responding instantly to invisible leg cues





Smilie said:


> I used the horsemanship video, because it shows transitions, which the Op was asking about, but I could as well have used a trail competition horse, a reiner or an English horse
> Point being, for great transitions you need both ahorse very light to leg aids, and one that is giving in the face and poll, while driving up from behind
> Never once said a recreational trail horse must know collection, as I have ridden many that never had that put on them, BUT watching those videos of the horse being ridden, for what the OP was asking about, that is what is missing
> Has nothing to do with the de sensitizing or spooking part!


Thanks for the clarification. I guess I was confused about what the goals are for the horse. I was just thinking "safe trail horse for beginners and guests" and not much beyond that.


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## jaydee

OK - I get it now, ignore my previous advice as it wasn't relevant to the actual problem
Some horse's need to be held between the leg and the hand more than others - some won't go faster unless the pressure on them is increased no matter what the hand is doing but others will 'run through' an 'open hand' and go as fast as they decide they want too


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## Acadianartist

What's interesting to me about Kodak too - purely from an observational standpoint from being around her on the ground - is that she actually really likes being touched. When I bought her, they told me she was hard to catch in the paddock (in fact, they touted that as her biggest issue). They gave me the impression that she was not the type of horse that would walk up to you at the gate and that she never would be. They described her as quiet, but somewhat aloof and said she tries to get out of working. I am finding quite the opposite. She does walk up to me in the paddock and loves being scratched (I discovered she goes nuts when I scratch her under the cheeks). She enjoys a good brushing and as you can see from the picture I posted above, she craves contact with Harley too. I think she is an affectionate horse that just didn't bond with the people who sold her to me. Given that they only had her for about a month and that she was thrown into a herd of a dozen or so horses they are training/selling, etc. that's quite understandable. But I don't think they understood her character that well. 

That may have little or no relation to how well she rides, but it's part of my project of getting to know Kodak. She's not aloof at all - she's more insecure and seeking reassurance. I don't think she is trying to get out of work. I think she has some fears and anxiety that cause her to react by pulling away. But once she loses that fear, she really likes being touched and will follow me around the paddock seeking it. I was cleaning some manure the other day and felt a muzzle on my arm and there she was behind me, nuzzling me. 

The other thing is that she doesn't appear to have been familiar with being hand-fed treats. I understand some people don't believe in that, but when she first got here, she wouldn't take anything from my hand. After seeing Harley get all the carrot pieces, she finally came around and will now ever-so-carefully pick the carrot off my hand using the very tip of her lips. As opposed to Harley's full on tongue and slobber, LOL. I feel going out to the paddock and pasture to give her random treats and rubs helps her realize I'm not just there to make her do things. At least that part is working!


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## jaydee

She is so much like Lou in a lot of ways. I couldn't catch her for a week, she was left to follow the others in and then channeled into her own stable where she'd usually turn her rear end on me though she never actually tried to kick you could see the threat was there
Now its hard to not catch here, she comes running to the gate to be caught and if I go in the field to do something she follows me around like a dog, she hated having her face touched but now stands and goes to sleep if you scratch between her eyes.


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## Smilie

Acadianartist said:


> Trailhorserider - thanks for the reassurance that most horses would have spooked at the bag. She also spooked at a bird squacking a couple of days ago, but it wasn't a bad spook and I was able to stay on.
> 
> I am looking for a better saddle (you may have seen my other thread on that). However, given that I'm going to have to order something online, I figure I might as well get something I can use for trail riding too. It will likely take a couple of weeks or more so in the meantime, I'm going to have to ride her in what I have.
> 
> As for her movement, I think it's fine for a trail horse, but I don't think she would look nice in a Hunter/Jumper ring which is what my daughter does. Maybe that can change in time, who knows. But I'm no trainer and am not too keen on spending thousands of dollars on her when Harley does such a great job of it.
> 
> 
> 
> Smilie - yes, I'd prefer that she responds to more gentle cues. That's just how I like to ride. It's not really about "invisible" cues for me (but I understand what you're saying), but about having good communication with my horse. I don't really like to bang on a horse. I think she just needs to understand what I'm asking of her. I wrote to the person who sold her to me, asking if they were using a different cue. The problem is that this person hardly rode her - she really just brokered the deal. The guy you see riding her is this person's dad who buys horses out west and brings them here to sell. He only had her for about a month. So neither of them really knows this horse that well.


Thanks for the expanded info, as it gives aclearer picture.
That person riding then, is ahorse 'flipper', trying to make a profit on a horse that they bought relatively cheap. They do this, with each having their own routine, based on showing how well broke the horse is, and 'quiet', as they are appealing to the average rider that just wants a broke horse
We have one, that attends the local all breed sale, and in fact, they are third generation. They are good hands, better then the man pictured in that video, as a side line is supplying and working with movie set horses, being successful ropers, ect.
They buy horses, work them awhile and then flip them. They have a routine they use First, the horse is ridden by the dad, who himself, started in that sale ring, riding for his dad as a youth
He shows the handle the horse has, turning him quickly on the fence, swinging a rope off of the horse. He then might take saddle and bridle off and ride that horse bareback in a halter, or through his young son up to ride the horse. At least one of them, slides off the rear end of the horse.
Your horse appears to have a good mind, inspite of inconsistent riding, by riders of various skill levels
She appears to be ahorse that with the right time, training and consistence, you can in turn make her into a consistent horse, responsive and clear as to cues
Right now, those holes in her riding, are showing up, and the question you need to ask yourself, are you willing to make her into the horse you wanted, and do you have the support, trainer wise, to do so
She has been 'ridden', but not with any constituency, either in the rider or methodology of a solid training program


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## Acadianartist

Yes, you've got it Smilie. The person riding her in the last two videos makes a living flipping horses. Actually, he drives them across Canada to his daughter in NB who does all the actual brokering. So there are a few people involved. And yes, they make videos showing how quiet the horses are. They do this quite regularly.

As to whether or not I can make her (or want to) into the horse I want, time will tell. I agree, she has holes in her training. I'm not a trainer. My coach trains her own horses, but she's really a riding coach. I'd consider working with a horse trainer if I could find someone good... actually, just typing that made me think of someone who might be able to help. I may reach out to her to see if she could come out or recommend someone. She rides Western. Still, I'd like to wait a couple more weeks to make sure Kodak is fully settled into her new home before starting any retraining with her. 

I guess what I'd do is get someone out here to work with her and me once or twice then see if I think we're getting anywhere. Even if I decide to sell her, it will be easier to do so if I can figure out what's really going on and what the real gaps are in her training.


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## walkinthewalk

I haven't been following this thread, since the first few posts but I will say this:

The TWH in my avatar didn't "make" at the training barn, went to a local gaited auction, sold and trucked 2,200 miles from Tennessee to California. For whatever reason things didn't work out there either. He got sold again and somehow ended up at the Spring gaited horse auction in Kentucky - that was another 2,200 miles back east.

Duke was bought by the trail rider who ultimately sold him to me. All this*before he was three years old!*

A few people asked why I bought a "cold" horse, aka a horse with no personality. My terse reply was they wouldn't have a personality either, if they'd been sent down the road a handful of times and cross-country twice before they were three years old.

He was my best bud for 24 of his 27 years. His big motored full of go self suited me and that "no fear" personality of his never let me down - he didn't have an ounce of spook to him, just dove head on into anything whether I said "go" or "I don't know about this".

Some horses can easily shake off all that moving around and different handlers, others take a very long time. Just like rescuing dogs - they don't all come around from the transgressions against them at the same rate.


There is no such thing as a perfect horse or a beginner horse; they have hearts, they pump blood, they are unpredictable. 

Beginner horses are made not born, even though a certain personality can constitute the makings of a good beginner horse.

Nor will a horse ever be another horse. My niece's last memory is of my Arab who passed a year ago. She had last seen Steeter when she was nine. She well remembers Joker who is very similar in behavior and personality to Streeter. She wouldn't play with him, when she was here this Spring, because "he wasn't Streeter". A huge mistake on her part as she missed out on the gentleness and kindness of great horse that I could trust to be alone with her.

^^^^Meaning Kodak is not Harley and never will be. Her way of going and thought process are her own. She is probably a horse that needs more time than what humans think is normal to settle in and feel like this is her forever home; especially if she senses apprehension on the part of the humans involved.

It saddens me to hear the word "sell", even if "sell" is a distant thought, it's still a thought. The horse is worthy of a lot of more patience than that-----------


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## jaydee

Smilie said:


> WOw,d id you ever try some poorly trained western horses, Jaydee!.
> Mine, and countless other well trained western horses, sure don't need constant kicking, nor even constant leg pressure to keep moving, as they learn to stay in the gait asked for, until told otherwise.
> What a generalization!
> Yes, based on that trail riding video, and even the first video, she lacks refinement, but in that first video,even where the horse is being ridden with some sort of draw reins, she is not being kicked constantly to be kept going
> Ican assure you Jaydee, inspite of you, vast and extensive' Experience' in western horse shopping, a well trained western horse needs no more constant kicking then a well trained English horse!~!!!!Lets get real!


 I'm sorry that you don't like what I say Smilie but I was only speaking from my own experience which wasn't in any way vast in the greater scheme of things - I can't speak from anything else I'm afraid. I also didn't say that they were any worse than a poorly trained English horse


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## ShirtHotTeez

@Arcadian. It is sad to me you are not happy with Kodak. I would certainly take her if I could, and she does not even tick any of the boxes for me lol. 

Now that you have her you have to work with the horse you have, which mostly seems to me a very confused one. You need to put aside now that she is not exactly what you wanted/thought you had got, in many ways I think she will be better. She needs a solid training regime to get her working, listening, responding focused on the rider not worrying about the surrounds. Instead of worrying about what she is going to do, think about what you want to make her do. Circles, serpentines, poles, transitions; interspersed with trail rides to keep her fresh. When she is moving with consistent pace/speed she will look a better horse than you are seeing, some of us can see through the 'greenness'. No reason she cant be a show horse. 

It is possible (can't really tell from here) that you are tense and she is responding to that. It would help her greatly for you to take your harley blinkers off. She will never be harley.



> My coach trains her own horses, but she's really a riding coach. I'd consider working with a horse trainer if I could find someone good..


??????? Teaching someone to ride isn't just about how they sit and how they hold the reins, it is about balance and interaction with the horse, how to give the right cues to get back what you are asking for and learning to trust and understand each other. You seem to be missing something there and if you 'get' it some things will fall into place. 

I fear you are giving your daughter the message that Kodak is not safe. She has ridden Kodak. If DD is confident, give her a chance. Kids can be more fearless.


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## Smilie

jaydee said:


> I'm sorry that you don't like what I say Smilie but I was only speaking from my own experience which wasn't in any way vast in the greater scheme of things - I can't speak from anything else I'm afraid. I also didn't say that they were any worse than a poorly trained English horse


While I do understand where you are coming from, based on trying a few poorly trained western horses, who might only have been ridden in a western saddle,versus coming out of any good training program,you can see where this generalization,assuming all western horses never learn to maintain gait, need to be constantly expelled, can appear biased/inflammatory and taken s being condescending to all western riding. It is also not the first time, you insinuated that all stock horses are 'dead heads', needing a bomb to go off under then, to get a reaction
If you bought plugs, who happen to have been ridden western, does not mean you can jump to the conclusion that needing constant leg bumping, is a common denominator, jsut because the horse was trained western. Okay? The horse was poorly and inconsistently trained, discipline a non issue


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## Yogiwick

Sounds like the trotting issue is the exact same issue as the inconsistency you felt the first ride. She comes to you, don't go to her.


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## Acadianartist

ShirtHotTeez said:


> @Arcadian. It is sad to me you are not happy with Kodak. I would certainly take her if I could, and she does not even tick any of the boxes for me lol.
> 
> Now that you have her you have to work with the horse you have, which mostly seems to me a very confused one. You need to put aside now that she is not exactly what you wanted/thought you had got, in many ways I think she will be better. She needs a solid training regime to get her working, listening, responding focused on the rider not worrying about the surrounds. Instead of worrying about what she is going to do, think about what you want to make her do. Circles, serpentines, poles, transitions; interspersed with trail rides to keep her fresh. When she is moving with consistent pace/speed she will look a better horse than you are seeing, some of us can see through the 'greenness'. No reason she cant be a show horse.
> 
> It is possible (can't really tell from here) that you are tense and she is responding to that. It would help her greatly for you to take your harley blinkers off. She will never be harley.


I understand that. I wanted a horse I could take on trails because Harley is not the greatest on trails. Sadly, Kodak may or may not be a reliable trail horse because of her unpredictability. 

I am keeping her focused one me when I ride. That's what my coach suggested and that's what I'm including poles, serpentines, circles, etc. It doesn't quite prevent her from spooking though. 



ShirtHotTeez said:


> ??????? Teaching someone to ride isn't just about how they sit and how they hold the reins, it is about balance and interaction with the horse, how to give the right cues to get back what you are asking for and learning to trust and understand each other. You seem to be missing something there and if you 'get' it some things will fall into place.


Of course a riding coach teaches you all sorts of things about communicating with the horse, but she's different from a horse trainer. My trimmer was in tonight and also noticed Kodak is a tad jumpy and anxious. She's like that with everyone so it's not just me. She was more quiet when we tried her out, that's true. I can't explain why. Anyway, the trimmer knows a good horse trainer and suggested I bring her out to assess Kodak. Maybe she can figure out what's going on. I can deal with all the holes in her training, but I'm not sure I can deal with a horse that can spook at any time. 

And before you say any horse can spook, there is a difference between a horse that spooks and one that spooks so hard you're on the ground in a second. That is EXACTLY what I didn't want. It's a deal breaker for me, I'm afraid, but I'll still giver Kodak a bit more time and see if she improves before making a decision.



ShirtHotTeez said:


> I fear you are giving your daughter the message that Kodak is not safe. She has ridden Kodak. If DD is confident, give her a chance. Kids can be more fearless.


First off, I will not put my daughter on a horse that isn't safe. Secondly, she doesn't want to go near Kodak, even if I would let her. She saw her spook and saw me go flying twice. She did say she'd be willing to try Kodak on a trail ride if I could ride her out enough times to say with some degree of confidence that she's ok. I'm not GIVING her any ideas, she's just not the kind of kid that will jump on anything. She tends to play it safe.


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## Acadianartist

Yogiwick said:


> Sounds like the trotting issue is the exact same issue as the inconsistency you felt the first ride. She comes to you, don't go to her.


Sorry, not quite getting that. Can you expand on that last sentence?


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## Acadianartist

walkinthewalk said:


> It saddens me to hear the word "sell", even if "sell" is a distant thought, it's still a thought. The horse is worthy of a lot of more patience than that-----------


I've had her almost a month. Will give her two more weeks, maybe a little more, and have her assessed by a trainer before I make a final decision. If that sounds cold it's because I'm trying to approach this rationally.

Here's my logic: I need a beginner-safe horse for myself and my daughter, as well as the occasional guest. If Kodak cannot be that horse, then I have to consider that maybe she would make a great horse for someone else. She might be great at reining with her quick reflexes. What is a flaw to me might be an asset to someone else. It's not like I'd just send her to auction. I'd make sure she goes to a good home and would be willing to take a financial hit on her purchase price (which was reasonably high). She's young, pretty and has some good qualities. If she cannot become a good, reliable horse for myself and my daughter, that probably means she will end up spending a lot of time not being used. It seems like a huge waste. And then there is the chance that someone might get seriously hurt on her. 

So while it may seem sad and it may seem like I'm giving up on her (I'm not, at least not yet), the longer I keep her, the harder it will be to make that decision. I need to remain open to all options and a very real option is to find another horse and let Kodak go to a home where she will be ridden by someone with more knowledge and experience. 

Stay tuned for the next episode... :confused_color:


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## Yogiwick

Acadianartist said:


> Sorry, not quite getting that. Can you expand on that last sentence?


Simply going back to what was said then (not on this thread I don't think).

You must stay calm and centered and focused and be consistent both mentally and definitely physically. Remember I suggested focusing on the tempo, count out loud even. Do NOT try to match her tempo!!! It's a natural thing to try to do, don't do it!! You keep your tempo steady and calm and consistent and yourself quiet and confident and she will match you. She needs your consistency atm not the other way around. Why she did so well in that older video with the girl. It's a little trickier with transitions, make sure you're not getting left behind but get off her back and stay in your head at your tempo.


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## Acadianartist

Yogiwick said:


> Simply going back to what was said then (not on this thread I don't think).
> 
> You must stay calm and centered and focused and be consistent both mentally and definitely physically. Remember I suggested focusing on the tempo, count out loud even. Do NOT try to match her tempo!!! It's a natural thing to try to do, don't do it!! You keep your tempo steady and calm and consistent and yourself quiet and confident and she will match you. She needs your consistency atm not the other way around. Why she did so well in that older video with the girl. It's a little trickier with transitions, make sure you're not getting left behind but get off her back and stay in your head at your tempo.


Ok, got it! My coach kept telling me to do that, but you've just explained it more clearly that it's possible to explain in the middle of a paddock with a spooky horse on a very windy day. 

Also, I've contacted a trainer to get her to come out and assess Kodak. She is highly recommended by my trimmer, who is a wealth of knowledge on everything horse-related.


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## Yogiwick

Acadianartist said:


> Ok, got it! My coach kept telling me to do that, but you've just explained it more clearly that it's possible to explain in the middle of a paddock with a spooky horse on a very windy day.
> 
> Also, I've contacted a trainer to get her to come out and assess Kodak. She is highly recommended by my trimmer, who is a wealth of knowledge on everything horse-related.


It's a little tricky to explain for sure! I'm glad that made sense! It's as much a mindset that creates your physical energy as anything.

Also similar to the 100% rule- if your horse has 20% energy you need 80%, if your horse has 90% you need 10%, calm on an excited horse, energetic (motivating lol) on a lazy one.


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## jaydee

While you might be able to get over the incidents with her that have worried you I'm not sure your daughter will do that so easily - and the entire purpose of having this horse was for her to have something solid and reliable that she felt confident on from the get go and that's clearly not working out
I don't think two weeks is going to make a big enough difference so it probably would be more sensible to start trying to rehome her now, the longer you keep her the more fond of her you'll become because she is a sweet little horse but not the sort of horse you need right now
On their FB page where they have her advertised the blurb about her says it was updated over a year ago which means that they have had her for a while, it also says
_ 'Has been hauled to barrel jackpots, started roping ( roped off a couple times in the community pasture in summer *2014*)._ 
Which also says to me that they've had her for a couple of years if those things were done with them
I found her advertised on a site when she was 7 years old so 3 years ago - I wonder if that's when they bought her or if she changed hands in between?
Whatever - it seems highly likely that she's not a horse that will ever be suited to the sort of rider that wants a steady reliable ride
If the sellers are dealers will they have her back?


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## Smilie

I have to kinda agree with Jaydee.
You want ahorse that will make a reliable youth horse.
Thus, look for a solid trail horse, that has been ridden by youth, and where that youth is perhaps going off to college, moving on to a more talented horse perhaps, becoming interested in some event A horse that is a "Jack of all trades, esp one that has been worked in speed events, is not your best choice. No saying that such ahorse, trained correctly, also can't make a great trail horse, by they are also ridden\trained by people that ride in a broad scope of classes, some which require slow and precision work
Best youth horses that I had, and where I felt good putting my kids on, were horses I raised myself,trained myself and then rode myself , for a year or more at least.
Not saying this is possible for you, but I then knew exactly how the parents rode, knoew how that horse was handled and trained, thus no 'baggage or surprises.
We did sell those horses, as we always had others coming up, that I would ride, and then the kids, so if you could find a situation something like that, and buy the horse from there, versus a dealer, you might have a much greater chance o getting the horse you need


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## Acadianartist

So another trail ride, another spook today. I lunged her briefly first, did a bit of ground work, desensitized her to my fanny pack (I carry my cell phone in it) because she reacted to it initially so I rubbed it on her shoulder and neck until she got over it. I first took her on the part of the trail we usually ride around my property, then detoured to another trail that she's only been on once or twice. Sure enough, we round the corner and she sees the neighbor's garbage bin like 100 ft away and a flag on her mailbox even further and she spooks. The good part is that I stayed on. 

I contacted a trainer who is coming out to assess her on Monday. I agree with both of you jaydee and Smilie, that she's not what we were looking for - a solid, reliable trail horse anybody could ride. The hard part is that my daughter gets very upset when I talk about selling her. I think what we might do, if the trainer feels she will always be a nervous horse, is start shopping for horse # 3 and THEN sell Kodak. Harley doesn't do well by himself and it might make it easier for my daughter if we could find another horse she could fall in love with. Of course it would be with the understanding that we're not keeping all three. I could finish the third stall, but our pasture space is limited and Kodak would just end up being a pasture pet. 

It will all hinge on what the trainer thinks on Monday. Meantime, we have to get Harley and my daughter ready for a show!


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## Acadianartist

jaydee said:


> While you might be able to get over the incidents with her that have worried you I'm not sure your daughter will do that so easily - and the entire purpose of having this horse was for her to have something solid and reliable that she felt confident on from the get go and that's clearly not working out
> I don't think two weeks is going to make a big enough difference so it probably would be more sensible to start trying to rehome her now, the longer you keep her the more fond of her you'll become because she is a sweet little horse but not the sort of horse you need right now
> On their FB page where they have her advertised the blurb about her says it was updated over a year ago which means that they have had her for a while, it also says
> _ 'Has been hauled to barrel jackpots, started roping ( roped off a couple times in the community pasture in summer *2014*)._
> Which also says to me that they've had her for a couple of years if those things were done with them
> I found her advertised on a site when she was 7 years old so 3 years ago - I wonder if that's when they bought her or if she changed hands in between?
> Whatever - it seems highly likely that she's not a horse that will ever be suited to the sort of rider that wants a steady reliable ride
> If the sellers are dealers will they have her back?


I found all those sites as well jaydee. The Internet is amazing. But just to clarify, the folks who were advertising her on Facebook are not the ones who sold her to me. They sold her to a guy out west whose daughter lives near me and sold me Kodak. I contacted the Facebook folks btw, to get more history on her, but it wasn't helpful. I also contacted the person who sold me Kodak, indicating that we were having issues and that she is definitely not the beginner horse they were advertising. She is sympathetic, but not really helpful. She said it was probably due to me using English tack on her. I explained that the horse wasn't reacting to tack, but rather was spooking at external things. And that her spooks were unpredictable and violent. The seller did not respond again.


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## jaydee

The FB people had posted that they'd sold her beginning of June to someone in NB so assumed that was you - or had they just heard that the people they sold her too had sold her on to you? Confusing eh!!!
The thing is, this mare is 10 years old, she's not lived all her life in a bubble, she has been around some and although she's been messed about with changes of ownership that's no excuse for her problems dealing with stuff. If she hasn't learnt to deal with life by now then chances are she never truly will be safe for anything but a rider that isn't bothered by her spooking and possibly one that she is able to lean on for confidence whereas your daughter needs a horse to give her confidence


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## Folly

Well that's really disappointing. Sounds like shopping for a new one while keeping Kodak could be ideal. Then, no rush - and if there is any possibility at all of her coming around, the relaxed 'no urgency' environment is probably the most conducive.


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## Yogiwick

Yeah, I agree with the others. I personally love that sort of horse, but you have a specific goal in mind and she may just not be the right one for it, doesn't mean she's not a great horse, just not what you are looking for to fill the spot. Sounds like a long talk with your daughter may be in order.

I'm curious what this trainer thinks. I am feeling even if she becomes the best horse for you she won't be the "throw the neighborhood kids on" horse it sounds like you wanted.

I knew a lady who had money and wanted a pretty horse so she went and looked at all these pretty horses (read hot horses and based purely off looks) and clearly the more expensive ones were better right? Bought several $10,000+ show horses. She had only been near horses for a few months. Needless to say that ended very badly..

Obviously you aren't doing that, I'm not trying to say you are, but "old plodders" really are worth their weight in gold. To be blunt I got the impression from your initial thread that you were just stuck on getting a new horse ("thinking not planning, but what about this one?" fast forward to now) which is FINE but then you also want a horse that meets certain criteria (FINE) but is also "bombproof beginner horse"(fantastic!) the problem I tried to show in the above example is that sometimes you can't have it all. The perfect horse for you may be overlooked as too boring, or not pretty enough, etc. I know very few horses I would TRULY call beginners horses (though plenty that would manage) and they really aren't exciting, or often pretty, and are usually overlooked. I guess what I'm trying to say is maybe re-evaluate your goals and have a very clear cut plan and don't be so quick to dismiss a horse that truly fits those goals at first glance (obviously if you hate the horse, lol, but hopefully you get what I'm saying, sometimes a closer look is worthwhile instead of the "I want this one, so no" mindset we ALL fall into, especially hard when you have two people, one young, trying to make a decision. Do you want something bombproof, but maybe dull, or something like Kodak?)


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## greentree

I just do not see any behaviors that would make me say, omg, SELL.... The horse needs a line of continuity to bloom....like some foster child that gets shifted from home to home, and never gets a chance to settle in and show what she can do. 

Be the leader for this mare, and I get she will be a real winner.


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## Yogiwick

greentree said:


> I just do not see any behaviors that would make me say, omg, SELL.... The horse needs a line of continuity to bloom....like some foster child that gets shifted from home to home, and never gets a chance to settle in and show what she can do.
> 
> Be the leader for this mare, and I get she will be a real winner.


Greentree I COMPLETELY agree, BUT will she be the 100% beginners horse it sounds like the OP wanted?

As I said above. I think evaluating goals may be as important as evaluating the horse here.


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## Acadianartist

Yogiwick said:


> Obviously you aren't doing that, I'm not trying to say you are, but "old plodders" really are worth their weight in gold. To be blunt I got the impression from your initial thread that you were just stuck on getting a new horse ("thinking not planning, but what about this one?" fast forward to now) which is FINE but then you also want a horse that meets certain criteria (FINE) but is also "bombproof beginner horse"(fantastic!) the problem I tried to show in the above example is that sometimes you can't have it all. The perfect horse for you may be overlooked as too boring, or not pretty enough, etc. I know very few horses I would TRULY call beginners horses (though plenty that would manage) and they really aren't exciting, or often pretty, and are usually overlooked. I guess what I'm trying to say is maybe re-evaluate your goals and have a very clear cut plan and don't be so quick to dismiss a horse that truly fits those goals at first glance (obviously if you hate the horse, lol, but hopefully you get what I'm saying, sometimes a closer look is worthwhile instead of the "I want this one, so no" mindset we ALL fall into, especially hard when you have two people, one young, trying to make a decision. Do you want something bombproof, but maybe dull, or something like Kodak?)


Just to be clear, I never turned away a horse that I thought was too boring or not pretty enough!!! I was looking at 18+ yr old horses! I was very interested in an old retired QH because she was bombproof, but when the seller told me she'd need retraining, I decided against it because of her age. There was the fat pony that wouldn't go forward... we passed on her because of her size (she was truly a pony) and a stubborn streak that worried me. If you look at the photos of the horses I looked at, I think you'll see I was certainly not going by looks!!! LOL I didn't buy Kodak based on looks. I bought her with the understanding that she was a well-broke beginner-safe horse like it said in the ad. Her looks had absolutely nothing to do with it. 

Thing is, there are almost no beginner-safe horses around here, or anywhere for that matter. Most ads I see start with "NOT for beginners". 

So last night I was in the paddock and Kodak walked over to me for scratches. I scratched her neck, shoulders, face, under her cheeks... all while chatting with hubby and telling him that I was going to bring in a trainer to have her evaluated and didn't know if we could keep her. My husband - not really a horse person, but surprisingly fascinated with our horses - is watching me do this for about 15 minutes, while telling him about how spooky she is. Meanwhile, Kodak is melting in my hands. She's not wearing a halter so could walk away anytime. I'm telling him about how she hates having someone wave their hand over her head (while waving my hand over her head and she doesn't even blink). So he smiles and says he thinks I should give her more time. 

And my daughter? She says she won't even go look at a third horse if it means we'll have to get rid of Kodak. 

I guess we'll see what the trainer says on Monday. I suppose, if I wanted to be optimistic, I would say that while Kodak is still spooking, her spooks are less violent since I am now able to stay on her and redirect her. The last one, a spook at a mailbox/flag/garbage bin (not sure what set her off), had her spinning a 180, wanting to take off in the opposite direction. I stopped her, turned her back around towards the offending object(s) and made her walk by. She was tense, but did walk by. Progress? I don't know. The trainer thinks that if there is a solid horse under there and if I am willing to work with her, we will see Kodak blossom. The question is, is there a good horse under there? I think so (after all, horses aren't born bad). That would tend to indicate that her spooking is due to "baggage" or bad life experiences, which seems to make the most sense. So then the question becomes: can we un-program her? 

So there it is. I have a horse that is not what she was supposed to be and a family who shouldn't care, but suddenly doesn't want me to sell her. I will give the trainer a chance and see what she thinks. 

Maybe my dream of giving all the neighborhood kids pony rides isn't fair to the horses either. Maybe I'm the one who has to change her expectations. As for DD, even if we had the perfect horse, I don't know if she'd ride it more often. And she has Harley...


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## Acadianartist

jaydee said:


> The FB people had posted that they'd sold her beginning of June to someone in NB so assumed that was you - or had they just heard that the people they sold her too had sold her on to you? Confusing eh!!!


I know, she had to have been moved around a lot! When they say she was sold to someone on NB, they meant the people from NB who sold her to me. I don't know if they knew these people were in the business of flipping horses. It sounds like they thought she was going to a great home - you probably wouldn't say that if you knew it was a dealer. It also means the people who sold her to me didn't have her very long. The FB post is early May and I bought her at the end of May. In that time period, she supposedly lived on the dad's ranch out west for a couple of weeks, then was brought to the daughter's place in NB where she lived for about a week before I bought her.


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## carshon

I am sorry to hear that you are so disappointed. I don't remember all of the details of when you purchased Harley but do remember posts about him being very very strong at the canter to the point that you were afraid your daughter would not want to ride. It has taken months and Harley has come around and they have now done a show together.

I think this mare needs time - I do not agree with others that a horse should act the same in every situation if it has good training. I have ridden some very well trained horses that were idiots in new situations. Your daughter had to learn to be a leader to ride Harley and feel confident and this is what Kodak needs - to have someone to trust. And trust is not built in a day. She may need time with scratches without halters on and rides with no tasks to tick off. Arena work may bring back bad memories for her or she just may need time to settle in.


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## jaydee

I'm sure that with a more experienced rider she'd be fine, she looks and sounds really sweet and sensitive - the sensitive part being why she wouldn't work well in a home where she was treated even slightly roughly but the spookiness is something that a horse of her age and time under saddle shouldn't be doing by now if it was an easily fixable thing. The FB people looked to be very capable and they'd had her for quite some time and done quite a lot with her but they're tough looking riders who wouldn't have worried at all about a spook and just kept on pushing her forwards all the time 
The entire point of having this mare was to give the daughter (and visitors) something reliable and safe to trail ride because Harley isn't considered to be 'that horse' so they're now in a situation where they've got two horses that she can't feel confident on out on the trails. 
Maybe with the help of the right horse the OP and her daughter will get to a level where they won't find Kodak to be a worry at all, perhaps a loan horse to fill that gap while you work with a trainer with her?


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## Jan1975

If giving other people rides is your main goal, buy an old fat pony for your third "horse" and let THAT be your pasture pet. That being said, I personally wouldn't buy a horse just so others could ride it. That happens so infrequently, and frankly, as a kid, I got REALLY tired of giving people rides on our horses all the time. Also, most other kids are perfectly happy just riding around an arena/paddock. Wouldn't even Harley be okay letting kids walk around on him? 

As for keeping Kodak, selling her, training her, whatever...that is up to you and I know whatever decision you make will be a good one. You definitely weigh out all options and think things through. You have a great mind for seeking this forum for advice and ideas, and using that info + what you feel in your heart is right to make the best decision for your family and horses.


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## Smilie

I agree that the spookiness of a horse her age, that has been exposed to plenty, is perhaps a good indication that she will always need a more experienced rider
It will be interesting as to what that trainer says, after riding her


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## Whinnie

Acadian, I can see where you are coming from. I see a couple of things here. You said beginner safe horses were practically non-existent within a reasonable distance from your home. You didn't want a "fixer-upper" as that is a lot of work. You know your riding skills and confidence level. I think you are still in the process of deciding what to do. I really believe there should not be a rush to sell her right now (horses sell better in the spring anyway) and maybe going from the perspective of improving your riding skills under your trainer on Kodak for this riding season and making a decision a few months. 


My trainer taught me how to teach my mare to spook in place. It doesn't necessarily take the spook out, but it does minimize the spook to where I am not left on the ground and quickly stop it. Not for beginner riders, but a confident novice can handle such a spook. Ask your trainer about it. We set up "spooks" for my mare so I would know it was coming and be ready. It helped both my mare and myself. The more I handled it, the fewer spooks I got and the more confident I became. Her spooks have gotten to just a quick tense stop and raised head to look and not very often (maybe twice a season). Easy for me to calm down and go on. 


You have to do what feels best to you. You know yourself and your situation best. It could take another year or two to find that perfect, elusive horse, or maybe Kodak will force you to hone your skills (and your daughter's, who is getting older and better) and she will become suitable for both of you. Nice to think of other kids riding your horse, maybe just not in the cards given the rarity of such horses in your area.


You might end u selling her anyway, but you will probably end up being a better rider.


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## greentree

Well put, Whinnie!

I guess I have always been stubborn enough to think of it as a challenge. "This silly horse is not going to get the better of ME".....

I think working to overcome these obstacles is setting a good example for your daughter.


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## jaydee

The older I get the more I think that horses with worrying problems are better suited to the younger riders, preferably those with good experience levels to start with. 
I'm sure I became a better rider because my first ponies were responsive but bombproof, even the first few I broke myself as a teenager were carefully selected for me because they'd got such bold, non-spooky temperaments and by the time I was having to deal with the spooky horses and the horses that bucked etc my seat, balance and ability to be able to sit tightly and react quickly and correctly were well established
It could be that Kodak will be as solid as a rock with an experienced rider on her, one that isn't going to worry about a spook because they know they can stop it in its tracks so that will be interesting to see


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## Smilie

Agree with Jaydee on the above.

Knowing now that I ride with increased risk, due both to age and artificial knees, I no longer can get on just any horse and ride him with the confidence through stuff, as you must, to make that horse solid, so try to avoid doing so, as you do neither the horse or yourself any good, if you can't do so!
Even if a confident trainer gets the horse going well, the OP will need to take lessons, and thus ride the horse like that trainer, or the horse will revert.
I had a stud once, with some Crimson War breeding. This horse could perform and win at upper end in several disciplines, but he never became an easy horse to ride, even after I had him gelded.
If I rode him hard at a show, first in rail classes, both English and western, he would do a nice reining and trail pattern, going hi point.
Came another show, and trail was first thing in the morning. Yes, I had warmed him up, but when he went into that rig, it was as if he had never seen trail obstacles before.
He was also never a sensible trail horse. He might go along great for along time, then spook and rear, going by a grain bin
I did have him ridden for a few months, by a trainer, while I was pregnant, and that might have been a factor, but first thing he told me when I brought him that stud- good looking Crimson War bred horse, but not many of them ride!
Not saying Kodiak is anything like thsi, but just to point out that there are horses that reamin horses for experienced riders. I know many open reining horses that win with the trainer, but never go on to making great non pro reiners
No, the latter don't lay down that winning score, but they score consistently in the same range-good enough to haev that non pro win quite a few classes in their division


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## Acadianartist

Thanks all. I still don't know what we will do, but you can all be assured that if we keep Kodak, I will be working with the trainer for some time. I could send Kodak away for training, but that seems pointless to me - I want her here so we can learn together. 

The trainer also said that if I decide to keep her, I was going to become a better rider very quickly... 

As for having a horse I can give rides to kids on, you're right Jan, I could pop a kid on Harley in the paddock. Hopefully Kodak too once she's lived in that paddock for 6 months or a year.... surely nothing will scare her in there anymore by then! 

Will let you all know how it goes with the trainer on Monday.


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## jaydee

Just a thought - but when we bought K I don't think she'd never been used to living so close to woodland before, mostly the sort of barns where the horses go out for a few hours a day in small paddocks and although she was excellent riding out on trails or roads when she was loose in the field she was a real mess and would soon start racing up and down the fence line and then started jumping out and going back into her stable where she'd settle down quite happily even on her own. We put her on Smartcalm after someone suggested we try it and her anxieties seemed to go away very quickly and she seemed to be able to learn to deal with deer and turkeys suddenly appearing a lot better than she was (or wasn't) without it. She doesn't need it any more
I've also found that some mares seem to get very increased hormonal effects when they get moved from one place to another or have new horses introduced and that can make them a lot more reactive than they would normally be


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## Acadianartist

Hope you're right Jaydee. I'd consider a calming supplement too, but not before I start working with a trainer to figure out what the root issue is. I feel I owe her that much. 

It's starting to sound like I'm committing to fixing this horse isn't it...


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## Smilie

Acadianartist said:


> Hope you're right Jaydee. I'd consider a calming supplement too, but not before I start working with a trainer to figure out what the root issue is. I feel I owe her that much.
> 
> It's starting to sound like I'm committing to fixing this horse isn't it...


You are right on with working with a trainer first.
She does not sound like ahorse that was kept stalled, like some show horses are, because they are 'too valuable' to turn out. Yes, those horses can be basket cases, turned out, as they have come to rely on that stall or pen as their safe place
Studies have been studies done, that show horses who have been allowed to explore their environment, make decisions through full time turn out, actually develop more neural pathways, and greater ability to adapt and evaluate situations
Unless a mare has some re productive abnormality, I don't buy into all that hormonal excuse. Not saying not to perhaps see if she is magnesium deficient, thus use something like mare magic, or plain raspberry leaves, which is about the same thing , as Mare Magic, and cheaper
I have ridden and shown many mares, and never needed to use an actual hormone like Regulmate to suppress estrous. I figure that if you have a mare that bad, you pull those ovaries, same as gelding a stud, that can't be managed , because of hormones-but that is just me,, and have had those virtual tomatoes thrown before, esp by people that equate the human menstrual cycle to a horse, far as cramps, or pain.
True, there can be some colic like pain in some mares, when they ovulate-briefly, but beyond that, it is just a strong drive to procreate, which along with food, is a strong motivator for horses (ones that aren;t neutered, of course! )
Let the trainer ride the horse, treating her like a horse, not a mare, and then evaluate


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## Yogiwick

Acadianartist said:


> Just to be clear, I never turned away a horse that I thought was too boring or not pretty enough!!! I was looking at 18+ yr old horses! I was very interested in an old retired QH because she was bombproof, but when the seller told me she'd need retraining, I decided against it because of her age. There was the fat pony that wouldn't go forward... we passed on her because of her size (she was truly a pony) and a stubborn streak that worried me. If you look at the photos of the horses I looked at, I think you'll see I was certainly not going by looks!!! LOL I didn't buy Kodak based on looks. I bought her with the understanding that she was a well-broke beginner-safe horse like it said in the ad. Her looks had absolutely nothing to do with it.
> 
> Thing is, there are almost no beginner-safe horses around here, or anywhere for that matter. Most ads I see start with "NOT for beginners".
> 
> So last night I was in the paddock and Kodak walked over to me for scratches. I scratched her neck, shoulders, face, under her cheeks... all while chatting with hubby and telling him that I was going to bring in a trainer to have her evaluated and didn't know if we could keep her. My husband - not really a horse person, but surprisingly fascinated with our horses - is watching me do this for about 15 minutes, while telling him about how spooky she is. Meanwhile, Kodak is melting in my hands. She's not wearing a halter so could walk away anytime. I'm telling him about how she hates having someone wave their hand over her head (while waving my hand over her head and she doesn't even blink). So he smiles and says he thinks I should give her more time.
> 
> And my daughter? She says she won't even go look at a third horse if it means we'll have to get rid of Kodak.
> 
> I guess we'll see what the trainer says on Monday. I suppose, if I wanted to be optimistic, I would say that while Kodak is still spooking, her spooks are less violent since I am now able to stay on her and redirect her. The last one, a spook at a mailbox/flag/garbage bin (not sure what set her off), had her spinning a 180, wanting to take off in the opposite direction. I stopped her, turned her back around towards the offending object(s) and made her walk by. She was tense, but did walk by. Progress? I don't know. The trainer thinks that if there is a solid horse under there and if I am willing to work with her, we will see Kodak blossom. The question is, is there a good horse under there? I think so (after all, horses aren't born bad). That would tend to indicate that her spooking is due to "baggage" or bad life experiences, which seems to make the most sense. So then the question becomes: can we un-program her?
> 
> So there it is. I have a horse that is not what she was supposed to be and a family who shouldn't care, but suddenly doesn't want me to sell her. I will give the trainer a chance and see what she thinks.
> 
> Maybe my dream of giving all the neighborhood kids pony rides isn't fair to the horses either. Maybe I'm the one who has to change her expectations. As for DD, even if we had the perfect horse, I don't know if she'd ride it more often. And she has Harley...


Yes I wasn't trying to say anything about you, just that sometimes a horse won't tick all the boxes and there's nothing wrong with that 

Try not to overthink the spooking. She needs confidence, confidence in you, the rest will come. She's clearly learning to trust you already, confidence and trust in scary situations is simply the next step. I took a friend out with her new lease horse on a short trail ride and that poor thing was left and right "oh the branch cracked, ow it poked me, ok I'm good, ah it's flying at my face!!" we laughed and kept on going and he's just fine. Try not to worry to much about her and what she will do. I don't really think horse spook as "baggage".

I am glad she is already very loved. Honestly I think once you two bond (and sounds like you're already getting there) you will be horrified to even have considered selling her. A horse like that will do ANYTHING for his/her person.

It's obviously your call what direction you want to go. Do you have the experience and.. "carelessness" (STOP worrying!!!) to work with a horse like this while accepting she will probably be a "mom only horse?" (unless you have someone advanced and calm to ride). You do seem like a worrier  and you will need to consciously shut that off, because until you do she WILL keep on spooking. Or if you guys love her that much she could just be a companion if you don't want to worry about riding? Sounds like Harley is an excellent beginners horse just a little hot for some (but not hard to handle, just can be intimidating), she sounds like another in the same boat. If you are concerned with Harley then maybe she is too much atm.


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## Yogiwick

jaydee said:


> The older I get the more I think that horses with worrying problems are better suited to the younger riders, preferably those with good experience levels to start with.
> I'm sure I became a better rider because my first ponies were responsive but bombproof, even the first few I broke myself as a teenager were carefully selected for me because they'd got such bold, non-spooky temperaments and by the time I was having to deal with the spooky horses and the horses that bucked etc my seat, balance and ability to be able to sit tightly and react quickly and correctly were well established
> It could be that Kodak will be as solid as a rock with an experienced rider on her, one that isn't going to worry about a spook because they know they can stop it in its tracks so that will be interesting to see


THIS THIS THIS. Esp the first and last bit. I have said Kodak sounds like my "new" mare before. My mare is not and will not be a beginner horse, not because she is hard to ride or badly behaved, quiet the opposite, but because she needs the rider to be a certain way. She has literally never spooked with me (aside from once or twice little starts as any horse will) but I got her because she was broncing people off. It's not my "magic powers" that let me get on this "out of control horse" and ride her bareback on a loose rein. Heck it's not even my experience, I've seen plenty of experienced riders that wouldn't LET her act up but she was a dripping nervous wreck instead of a bronc. She's a horse you need to be "in tune" with and she needs to trust you. You also need to have a "devil may care" attitude so she knows it's not worth thinking about. Do you think you can do that, esp the last bit? Laugh at her spooks, don't get tense, don't worry about when she will spook, just go with it. Again, I know it's hard!! but she will keep on spooking until you can move past that.

I would definitely call my mare a worrier, but you would never tell to look at her. She is sweet and quiet and calm and easy to handle.


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## Acadianartist

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Yogiwick. I don't consider myself a worrier, but I suppose that with age, worrying does come to a certain extent. I've always been a confident, fearless person. However, there comes a time in your life when you realize you're not as immortal as you once thought. Having children often brings that on. You realize you're suddenly so invested in something outside yourself, that if something were to happen to them, you'd be shattered, and suddenly, you're a lot more fragile than you ever thought. 

I'm not sure how to express this succinctly (I think we can all agree that's not my strong suit anyway). It took me a long time to get to a point in my life where everything was going smoothly. Now, everything is so **** perfect that I keep thinking something has to give. It's just too good. Idiotic, right? So my imagination gets carried away. I think worst case scenario. 

It's easy for 20-somethings to say it's no big deal to get on a horse that spooks. At that age, I would have done it too. Hell, I had a horse in my teens who spooked all the time. But when you're getting close to 50, you realize things happen. People get hurt. They die. 

I do sometimes try to remember if it was like this with Harley when we first got him last October. I guess it was, to some extent, but also different. Harley has a big canter and my daughter is still working on being able to ride it confidently. He is jiggy on trails. Sometimes he will refuse to go forward on a trail and I have to get off, lead him forward, and get back on. There were times when he intimidated me initially, I suppose. But now, I trust him 150%. He is such a sweetheart, I can't imagine my life without him. And I've had all of my daughter's friends on him for rides around the indoor arena on her birthday. He didn't much enjoy it, but tolerated each and every one. I consider him a safe horse for someone who just wants to walk or even trot around the paddock. Anything more would be reserved for someone more proficient.

If you all met me, you would never for a second describe me as a nervous or anxious person. I am the one who calmly deals with a crisis. I have put out grease fires like it was no big deal and taken my son to ER with a split lip when the school called in a panic. When people around me fall apart, I am the one they look to for direction. I end up on leadership roles even when I don't want them, and have been described as a control freak (DH could fill you on in that...). 

Maybe Kodak has something to teach me.


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## Yogiwick

Acadianartist said:


> Thanks for sharing your thoughts Yogiwick. I don't consider myself a worrier, but I suppose that with age, worrying does come to a certain extent. I've always been a confident, fearless person. However, there comes a time in your life when you realize you're not as immortal as you once thought. Having children often brings that on. You realize you're suddenly so invested in something outside yourself, that if something were to happen to them, you'd be shattered, and suddenly, you're a lot more fragile than you ever thought.
> 
> I'm not sure how to express this succinctly (I think we can all agree that's not my strong suit anyway). It took me a long time to get to a point in my life where everything was going smoothly. Now, everything is so **** perfect that I keep thinking something has to give. It's just too good. Idiotic, right? So my imagination gets carried away. I think worst case scenario.
> 
> It's easy for 20-somethings to say it's no big deal to get on a horse that spooks. At that age, I would have done it too. Hell, I had a horse in my teens who spooked all the time. But when you're getting close to 50, you realize things happen. People get hurt. They die.
> 
> I do sometimes try to remember if it was like this with Harley when we first got him last October. I guess it was, to some extent, but also different. Harley has a big canter and my daughter is still working on being able to ride it confidently. He is jiggy on trails. Sometimes he will refuse to go forward on a trail and I have to get off, lead him forward, and get back on. There were times when he intimidated me initially, I suppose. But now, I trust him 150%. He is such a sweetheart, I can't imagine my life without him.
> 
> If you all met me, you would never for a second describe me as a nervous or anxious person. I am the one who calmly deals with a crisis. I have put out grease fires like it was no big deal and taken my son to ER with a split lip when the school called in a panic. When people around me fall apart, I am the one they look to for direction. I end up on leadership roles even when I don't want them, and have been described as a control freak (DH could fill you on in that...).
> 
> Maybe Kodak has something to teach me.


I obviously don't know you, but you seem stressed about having everything "perfect" (not sure how to phrase it that "first child" thing I've mentioned ) and any tension whether it's simply something like that or actual anxiety or fear or something will be picked up by a worried horse.. Especially where you've come off her recently and don't know her there will of course be some tension. It's hard to rise about it to the "everything is fine" mindset, where you get yourself and ultimately the horse actually believing that and relaxing. I'm pretty good at that mindset, but it still took me 6 months to get on my horse after he threw me and multiple rides before I got it back with him. It's always a work in progress and I truly believe mental things are as important as physical when working with animals, esp horses as they are so in tune. (I am also not succinct :icon_rolleyes:, I hope that makes more sense! lol) I think eventually simply knowing her and being comfortable will get you to that point, but it may be a long hard road if it's not natural for you if it even works. Shrug.

When is the trainer coming?


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## Acadianartist

The trainer is coming Monday. Saturday, my daughter and Harley are competing in their first Equine Canada sanctioned show so we have a busy schedule this weekend!

As far as me being stressed about being thrown (twice) from Kodak, the good thing is that I've been able to ride out her last few spooks and have not come off her since. So she's still spooking at random things, but I'm staying on, which is giving me some confidence. 

While I'm not an anxious person by nature, I suppose I do tend to over-analyze. Actually, that may be the understatement of the year.

I really do appreciate how supportive and non-judgmental everyone is being.


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## Textan49

Acadianartist said:


> Thanks for sharing your thoughts Yogiwick. I don't consider myself a worrier, but I suppose that with age, worrying does come to a certain extent. I've always been a confident, fearless person. However, there comes a time in your life when you realize you're not as immortal as you once thought. Having children often brings that on. You realize you're suddenly so invested in something outside yourself, that if something were to happen to them, you'd be shattered, and suddenly, you're a lot more fragile than you ever thought.
> 
> I'm not sure how to express this succinctly (I think we can all agree that's not my strong suit anyway). It took me a long time to get to a point in my life where everything was going smoothly. Now, everything is so **** perfect that I keep thinking something has to give. It's just too good. Idiotic, right? So my imagination gets carried away. I think worst case scenario.
> 
> It's easy for 20-somethings to say it's no big deal to get on a horse that spooks. At that age, I would have done it too. Hell, I had a horse in my teens who spooked all the time. But when you're getting close to 50, you realize things happen. People get hurt. They die.
> 
> I do sometimes try to remember if it was like this with Harley when we first got him last October. I guess it was, to some extent, but also different. Harley has a big canter and my daughter is still working on being able to ride it confidently. He is jiggy on trails. Sometimes he will refuse to go forward on a trail and I have to get off, lead him forward, and get back on. There were times when he intimidated me initially, I suppose. But now, I trust him 150%. He is such a sweetheart, I can't imagine my life without him. And I've had all of my daughter's friends on him for rides around the indoor arena on her birthday. He didn't much enjoy it, but tolerated each and every one. I consider him a safe horse for someone who just wants to walk or even trot around the paddock. Anything more would be reserved for someone more proficient.
> 
> If you all met me, you would never for a second describe me as a nervous or anxious person. I am the one who calmly deals with a crisis. I have put out grease fires like it was no big deal and taken my son to ER with a split lip when the school called in a panic. When people around me fall apart, I am the one they look to for direction. I end up on leadership roles even when I don't want them, and have been described as a control freak (DH could fill you on in that...).
> 
> Maybe Kodak has something to teach me.



It's sounding more and more like you and Kodak might be good for each other.


The spooky unpredictable horses are a greater challenge as we get older. I am sixty seven and still riding and handling them though. I would say the hardest part is staying calm and relaxed (which your horse needs) and at the same time remaining prepared for anything you know darn well may happen. It's just a mindset to work toward. I worked with a TB gelding who was known to spook even on a lead (and possibly come on top of you) I always kept him on a very loose lead, always stayed relaxed, and only had one incident when he stopped dead and was positive that the new water hydrant was a monster. It took him a minute or two to decide it really wasn't and he pretty much told me that we should continue. I never had a problem with him after that. That was just one situation with one particular horse but an example of giving the horse confidence.


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## Bondre

I very much agree with Yogiwick and Textan over the importance of transmitting confidence and "no worries" to your horse. The rider's mindset is amazingly important to some horses. 

I have experienced this with my mare, Macarena. She is now six, I started her at three and a half and I taught her everything she knows - which means her training is less than perfect ad I am no horse trainer. I started riding her on the trails from the beginning, as I have no arena for schooling, just some open fields. She spooked at rock piles, pigeons flying noisily out of trees, and concrete irrigation structures. None of her spooks were bad and I was confident, so she soon learnt not to worry about any of these nasty things. I had the "laugh it off" attitude that Yogiwick mentions. 

Then last summer she had a couple of big scares over a dirtbike. The second time she wanted out of there fast and while she listened and didn't bolt, and nothing actually went wrong, she was so stressed that I felt I was barely in control. After that I was nervous about possibly meeting another bike. On one occasion we heard one in the distance and her head shot up and she went rigid. I was unable to laugh it off and calm her down, so I dismounted and led her. I was scared about the possibility of what she might do, and she fed off my fear and gave me a bad time on the end of the lead.

And from there, things went from bad to worse for a while. We had lost confidence in each other. I was scared of her possible nervous reaction, she was more nervous because she felt my fear, and we were in a spiral of negativity together. She started refusing to leave the vicinity of the stables and became very herd-bound. 

I have had to go back to incredibly basic stuff to work through this with her. Right back to the start, doing groundwork and easy confidence-building exercises. I used clicker training like Jaydee with her nervous mare, and can confirm that it's a valuable technique worth considering. Macarena is another of these submissive mares that really bonds with one person, like Kodak sounds to be. She is very bonded to me but that doesn't stop her getting nervous with me - maybe in fact she's more attuned to my emotions and feeds off them more than a laid-back type of horse. So with horses like this, the rider / handler's frame of mind is terribly important. 

Sorry about the essay, we're all a verbose bunch when were talking about what we love lol. 

Kodak has the advantage that she already has a good base of training; she just needs a worry-free rider to give her confidence and I suspect you are already part of the way there with her. As you like analysing things (your own admission lol) maybe you could try clicker training. I found it very useful as in order to tackle a problem to need to break it down into small pieces and consider how to modify each small "block" of behaviour. My problem was a horse that refused to go forward and would go sideways or backwards to avoid it. So I taught her various things with the clicker: one step forward on cue, which turned into walk forward on cue; halt and stand still; turn on haunches; back up; head down and relax. Just simple stuff which improved my control of her body, things which Kodak probably knows but it wouldn't do any harm to have fun sessions working on things like this, first on the ground and then mounted. I note use these exercises as for destressing my horse is things get a bit hairy. Her head shoots up and she goes tense about something and I ask her to start moving her feet.Turn, back up, let's try a side pass. She knows she can do this and that she enjoys it, so it's like a comforter for her, it takes her mind off the possible threat she spotted on the horizon and gets it back on me. 

Everything that people say on this forum about making a horse move its feet to make them relax and focus is TRUE!


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## Jan1975

I don't see you as stressed about being perfect; I see you as an overachiever. I KNOW you're an overachiever based on your accomplishments in your career. That's a compliment, just to clarify. :lol: And yes, you do over analyze things, but that is not always bad either. You can't be successful without over analyzing and self criticizing a bit! 

Also, in regards to age, I GET IT. I would hop on ANYTHING as a kid (and did). My friend's sister had a horse breeding/showing business when we were in HS and we'd hop on green broke crazies all the time. I remember her saying to me, "I don't THINK that one will buck violently." And we used no saddle, of course, because that took time. :lol: Now, I would never in a million years get on a horse that someone else hadn't proven to me was safe.


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## Folly

Acadianartist said:


> ...
> While I'm not an anxious person by nature, I suppose I do tend to over-analyze. Actually, that may be the understatement of the year.
> ...


Oh my goodness that is so me 

Branching off the main topic (because I'm not experienced enough to offer advice), but as far as the mare hormones go here is my experience with my girl - and hopefully yours is similar. Before I bought her I asked the owners what her heat cycles tended to be like, and they said honestly they never even knew she was 'in'. I knew the owners somewhat and have no reason to doubt them. Then, about 2 weeks after I moved her to my boarding barn she came in with a vengeance - flirting with the gelding 'next door' and so distracted that she would hardly eat her grain (and this is a very food motivated horse). I rode her, but was nervous because she was calling out occasionally even under saddle and she was very looky, though nothing particularly bad happened. Anyway, that finally passed (seemed to take forever, but was of course only a week). I braced myself for the next round - but it never came. That was 4 months ago, and I've ridden consistently and have never noticed that behavior again. So, I don't know if it was a combination of her first heat cycle of the season combined with general insecurity at being moved or what, but it's been a complete non-issue and she's back to her calm self (and she seems to look to her people for reassurance when needed rather than other horses). Anyway, I don't know if this is specific to my horse or might be generalized.


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## jaydee

Folly - That is something I've seen a lot in new mares that we've bought or that were moved to places I worked at or to our own boarding yard over the many years that I've been around horses. It doesn't seem to last more than a month or two while they adjust to the new environment and then they go back to normal
When we bought Willow - 11 or could be 12 years ago we were told that she'd never shown any signs of being mareish other than when they first had her but like someone flicked a switch the moment she arrived with us she was a complete nightmare for a few months and then the switch was flicked off and I've never noticed her to even be in season again or display such bad behavior on the ground or under saddle, she was a complete bundle of nervous tension that would explode at the slightest thing


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## Whinnie

So looking forward to the report about this weekend's show! Pictures, of course!


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## Smilie

In the end, you are considering all angles, and will have a better idea, as to future direction after the trainer gets a 'feel', of Kodiak
Riding has to be \fun', and when you start to feel that you 'have to', get on any horse', it has to be something you are paid to do!
I felt guilty for a long time , not getting on those last few colts we had left to start, that fell between the cracks, when we stopped breeding, and when I came to the decision that riding colts was something perhaps , I should no longer be doing. Yes, I still rode them, after my son put astart on them, but found myself past the time I usef to love taking a young green horse to those first shows, or on some first trail rides
Charlie is a horse that will always remain a reactive horse, one that can at times spook hard, but we have come along ways, and while I am committed to working with her, she is a keeper, being the last one out of the mare that produced so many good babies for us, that I rode, including my Einstein
Her sire, was not our stud, though, as I bred her by transported semen, so only a half sibling to those others. 
She is a horse I should have had some 10 years ago, or so, because at age 70, with replaced knees, I have to be honest that I don't ride with the confidence I used to, but do push her through stuff,, and we have some great rides together, as she is basically a very nice horse, but will never be a kid's horse or one for a novice rider


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## Yogiwick

Acadianartist said:


> The trainer is coming Monday. Saturday, my daughter and Harley are competing in their first Equine Canada sanctioned show so we have a busy schedule this weekend!
> 
> As far as me being stressed about being thrown (twice) from Kodak, the good thing is that I've been able to ride out her last few spooks and have not come off her since. So she's still spooking at random things, but I'm staying on, which is giving me some confidence.
> 
> While I'm not an anxious person by nature, I suppose I do tend to over-analyze. Actually, that may be the understatement of the year.
> 
> I really do appreciate how supportive and non-judgmental everyone is being.


We have ALL been there!! No worries! You have a really great new horse and it's a tough spot. I hope it works out for you.


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## Acadianartist

Whinnie said:


> So looking forward to the report about this weekend's show! Pictures, of course!


Putting pics in the "Horsey daughter losing interest?" thread. 

As for Kodak, the trainer is coming tomorrow. Will let you all know what she thinks. Kodak was quite well-behaved in Harley's absence though (he was gone overnight for the show). She called for him a bit at first, but got over it. She was some excited to see him come home though!


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## JulieG

Acadianartist said:


> Thanks sarah. I just asked my coach the same question and just got her response. She says give her time. She feels this horse is actually sweet-tempered and quiet, but is going through an adjustment period. She had the same experience with a horse she bought who was supposed to be bombproof and was a disaster for the first few weeks, but settled right down after.
> 
> .


I'm jumping in late but I wanted to say I hope you're hanging in there! The horse I bought a few months back wasn't sold as bombproof, but she was definitely not spook AT ALL when I test rode and she was a little unsure when I brought her home. I think it was more that she needed time to trust me than anything else. She hasn't had any terrible spooks, but even just a few weeks in I could see a difference in her. We did some ground work and lots of rides and I think just getting more time to get to know each other made a world of difference.

Some of them will let anyone get on and listen to them immediately and some of them need some time to see that we're reasonable human beings and can make good decisions before they do what we say...


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## Acadianartist

Thanks Julie! I hope you're right. Kodak has definitely come a long way as far as being interested and even affectionate towards me on the ground. Maybe she just needs to establish a good relationship.

It's funny, you would think that my daughter, who will not get on Kodak until she settles down, would be the first one to say we should sell her. But she is adamant that we just need to give her a chance. Today, she was snuggling with one of our dogs who was a rescue, and told me maybe Kodak is like Nicholas (the dog) - she just needs time. When we got Nicholas, he bit my husband and son in the first couple of days he was with us. I almost gave him back, but we decided to give him a chance and he's a great dog now. Loyal to a fault (just ask the mailman who decided it was ok to walk into my house with a package). 

My daughter is really happy that a trainer is coming tomorrow and wants to participate in the session, or at least watch. I have no idea why, but she has been smitten with Kodak from day one. Maybe this will spark an interest in natural horsemanship for her, since that's what the trainer practices.


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## Acadianartist

The trainer came and worked with Kodak for a little over an hour. She just did groundwork and desensitization to assess Kodak. She worked with a plastic bag on the end of a crop and a tarp. At one point, the wind caught the tarp and Kodak had a pretty bad spook, nearly running her over, but she kept working with her until Kodak walked over the tarp willingly. There was never any force, just gentle asking and giving her time to make her own decisions. She gave a lot of praise and touched Kodak on the head a lot. By the end, she could rub the plastic bag all over Kodak and shake it over her back, as well as rub the tarp over her. 

The trainer felt Kodak is a very sweet mare who tries really hard to figure out what you're asking her to do and wants to do it, but is not always confident enough to deal with things. She observed that Kodak has some excellent training in some areas, but is far from a beginner-safe horse. Her guess was that Kodak was a confident horse at some point, but something happened that made her lose that confidence. She feels we can bring it back and said that Kodak has potential to be a really great horse that would walk through fire for you if she trusts you. Kodak may never be that horse you stick a beginner kid on, but the trainer felt she could definitely become a safe horse to ride. We're going to keep doing this weekly to see how things progress, but I am hopeful. I could really see Kodak thinking about things and wanting to do the right thing. But sometimes, fear and/or anxiety got the best of her. 

My daughter was happy about how the session went too and we look forward to the next one.


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## Jan1975

That sounds like an excellent session! I bet you will make huge progress w/ the help of the trainer. It's cute your daughter is so smitten w/ her!


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## egrogan

Nice- will the trainer do ridden work, too, or just the groundwork? Glad that you feel you have something to work with!


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## Acadianartist

egrogan said:


> Nice- will the trainer do ridden work, too, or just the groundwork? Glad that you feel you have something to work with!


Just groundwork today, though she did say to keep her tack ready so I assume she'll ride her soon. But it took a really long time for her to get Kodak to accept the tarp and she felt it was enough for a first session. Given that she worked with Kodak for about an hour, I agree. 

She did say that she really enjoys working with Kodak because she tries so hard. It's not like she has any meanness to her at all, or that she's just being stubborn. She wants to please her people, but lacks the self-confidence.


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## egrogan

I'm not really big on the celebrity trainers, but I happened to catch an episode of Julie Goodnight's TV show this weekend and thought of you. It's episode 909, "Afraid of your shadow," which I think you could pay to access (not sure how the members access works, we have a satellite TV channel that carries her show so I watch it occasionally). This was the preview from YouTube:





Basically, in the episode, a woman had a horse that would give her random big spooks, and she was pretty intimidated by him. So they worked together to set up situations where he would encounter unusual things, and reward him for showing curiosity in the object, as small as his interest was. They worked up to walking up to big open umbrellas. Seemed like some good common sense tips, not sure if it would be helpful to you or not. Now that you have someone in person, you may have no need for video clips. Just thought I'd pass it on!


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## Acadianartist

Thanks egrogan! I'll see if there's a way to order that episode! Those spooks look awfully familiar! And the trainer we're working with is doing exactly what you describe - encouraging Kodak to show curiosity about new things rather than automatically assuming the worst. She spooked hard a few times at the tarp (especially when the wind caught it), but eventually tolerated being near it. Then, the trainer led her up to it and praised her when she finally put her nose down to it - even moved her away from the tarp as a reward. She just kept doing that until Kodak became confident enough to walk over it. She would walk on her tip-toes almost, it was so funny, like the tarp was a pond full of crocodiles  Once she actually kind of jumped over it, but the trainer still praised her because she did get over it. At no point was there any pressure on the lead line, this was all done really slowly using praise anytime Kodak made progress, even in tiny increments. The trainer explained that it's ok for a horse to take the time they need to investigate something new. She believes someone somewhere (perhaps the people who sold her to me) rushed through her training and she was so overwhelmed, she just shut down and submitted out of fear. Pretty consistent with how I was reading her. 

The funny thing is that everyone in my family seems smitten with Kodak, even my husband who is totally non-horsey. He asked me how it went with the trainer and he thought it was great that Kodak had made progress. He actually told me he thinks paying this trainer is money well-spent (!!!). I appreciate his support, but am a little surprised at it. I guess my family refuses to give up on an animal...


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## carshon

I love that your family refuses to give up on her. There are so many horses (and dogs and cats and animals in general) that people give up on. I had a mare myself that was in the kill pen at an auction we were at. They brought those horses in last and most folks had left - my family and I were sitting in the bleachers talking to friends and not paying attention to the kill pen horses - and this horse came in and was being ridden (very unusual) and she stopped and I swear she looked me straight in the eye and just whinnied at me. Before I knew I had bought her for $400. The seller told me she was broke to ride but "crazy and unsafe" I won't bore you with the details but long story short is that those that had trained her used backing up as a punishment and whenever she got nervous she ran backward - down hills, ravines, into traffic she would just blindly fly backward. She was terrified of most men and would clear 5ft high fences if you walked toward her with a whip. I rode this mare for years and found her to be one of the bravest - most trust worthy trail horses I have ever owned. We lost her to cancer 2 weeks ago - I had retired her because the tumor had gotten so large and it bled if she worked too hard - but I miss her and am glad she found me at that sale.

Keep up the good work - sometimes all the horse needs is for someone to see things from their point of view and help them to see things differently.


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## Acadianartist

Thanks carshon... I shouldn't be so surprised since we've never given up on a single animal before - and lord knows we've had our share of crazies! 

It's great to hear success stories like yours. It made me wonder if Kodak's tendency to back up fast out of a trailer, or sometimes when she spooks, might have been caused by similar training methods. 

I suspect it will take time, but hope our work on the ground with Kodak will translate into a better horse under saddle. Only time will tell, but I hope to have a happy ending to this story someday.


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## Whinnie

I think you will have to get a third horse down the road as I see your husband wanting to take over Kodak in the future. His interest is piqued and if he is included in the groundwork I bet he will want to ride.


Your trainer sounds like a gem!


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## Acadianartist

Whinnie said:


> I think you will have to get a third horse down the road as I see your husband wanting to take over Kodak in the future. His interest is piqued and if he is included in the groundwork I bet he will want to ride.
> 
> 
> Your trainer sounds like a gem!


Not sure hubby will actually want to ride, but I'm grateful for his interest in the horses. It also means I can go away for a night and he doesn't mind doing a feeding or two. 

And yes, this trainer appears highly skilled. I could really see the communication between her and Kodak. She's just a kid - in her 20s! From Germany. But she came highly recommended by my trimmer, who is a horsewoman I greatly admire. She warned me not to be put off by her age and I can see why. She might be young, but she is mature beyond her years and certainly seems to know what she is doing.


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## Whinnie

My trainer/instructor just turned 21 and she knows her stuff.


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## Acadianartist

On a slight tangent... I thought I'd ride Harley on a trail today since the weather is cool and the flies aren't bad. I don't know what the heck got into him, but he was just crazy. Right out of the barn, he started snorting and acting up. I had trouble mounting, he was so jittery. But I got on, and started to ride towards our usual trail. When we got close to the trees, he stopped in his tracks, backed up, jumped sideways, then just stood shaking like a leaf when I made him face the horrible monster-trees. I was pretty peeved at that point. He's never been a great trail horse, but this is the first time he acts like this. I tried circles, but he was threatening to explode so I hopped off and led him through the entire trail on foot. He was just a big silly scaredy cat the whole way. I had to circle him a couple of times on the trail when he would spook at a branch and get ahead of me. After going all the way around the trail, I walked back to the barn, untacked him and fetched the lunge line and whip and brought him right back to the spot where he was so scared of the trees. I lunged him for a good, long time. He would accelerate near the trees and launch into a gallop at times. I figured I'd let him wear himself out until he realized it was really more work than it was worth. Then I did it again on the other side. Finally, he decided the trees weren't worth it and when he calmed down, I walked him right up to the trees and let him graze. He was still a little wary, but I was able to walk him by them without any real reaction. So then I took him to another spot where there is really nice, lush grass and let him graze for 10-15 minutes as a reward. What would you have done? I felt it was unsafe to be on him in that state of fear, but I wasn't going to let him just go back to the barn. Did I make it worse or did I do the right thing?

So then, I figured while I'm at it, I'm going to lunge Kodak near the monster-trees too. She was nowhere near as reactive as Harley. In fact, I can't say she even spooked at all. She did, initially, snort the air a few times and she often looked up with alert eyes and ears, but never really jumped. I could tell she wasn't crazy about going by the trees, but she did a lot better than Harley. I don't think she was lunged a lot though, because she's really unsure about how to do it and wants to turn into the circle and walk to me. But I managed to get her to w/t/c. The good thing is that she stopped looking around like an ostrich and started to turn her head towards me, looking for direction. 

I then did a bit of leading work, which she really excels at. She will absolutely match my every step, stopping when I stop (without being asked), spinning on the haunches, etc. She seems to find that sort of work reassuring. I'm thinking maybe I can use this when she's spooky. Anyway, after that I let her graze on really rich grass which happens to be beside our pool where there are tarps. She was nervous about it and gave the tarps the big bulgy-eye stare, but grazed for a while and I think she did ok. 

Kind of wishing I had ridden Kodak instead of Harley, but then it started to rain pretty hard so I put the horses in. I guess I'm feeling a little discouraged about the fact that I have two spooky horses now. I just want one horse I can safely ride  But it seems like there's going to be a lot of work in getting there. I guess I'm looking for reassurance that it will be worth it and that I can eventually have a rideable trail horse... maybe I need to set weekly goals or something so I feel I'm making progress. Will ask the trainer about that on Monday. 

Also, I ordered some MagRestore for Kodak to see if it helps. And after today, I'm thinking maybe Harley needs it too!!!


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## JulieG

Boy, they sure have their days, don't they!

I would have done the same as you. I find that if they're really acting up to the point where I feel unsafe, my staying on them only makes it worse. There are times I can't hide my slight nervousness, which in turn makes them more nervous. I think in those situations it's better to get off and walk them - like you said, they don't completely get out of work and you won't get killed in the process!


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## jaydee

Are they getting a bit clingy with each other?


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## Smilie

You did fine, in the fact that you did not quit, but I would have done things a bit different.
Right from the word 'go\ Harley told you he was not really to ride. That is when I would have lunged him, making him tune in, then ridden him in his comfort zone, reestablishing some basic body control exercises.
Only when he was focused, would I have ridden him out, as I never want to need to get off a horse and lead him, if possible, if I can't ride him through stuff.
Horses are creatures of habit
Better to ride where you can, then try to ride where you cannot, until where you now cannot ride, becomes a place you can. Make sense?
Maybe there was a real reason for Harley to be spooky, and of course, if I am somewhere that I have to ride from point a to b,I will try to do so, but I don't purposely put me in that position, where I might not be able to ride a horse through stuff, if I can avoid it.
You have to be that strong leader, have that body control on a horse, before you ask him to ride somewhere, and that in turn builds trust in your leadership, with the horse knowing that you are 'looking out for the lions, so he does not have to'
I know, harder done then said at times, and as I grow older, that becomes more clear, BUT it doe snot change the fact that solid horses that are not spooky, are created by confident riding and exposure


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## Smilie

Here is just ONE method


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## Acadianartist

Interesting video - thanks Smilie. However, I would point out that for Kodak, we're talking about full-blown explosions, not just turning away from the object. There is literally no time to react because in a second, I'm either on the ground or reining in an out-of-control horse. She takes spooking to a whole new level. It's hard to explain, but I'll try to get video of her doing it when the trainer rides her. She doesn't just veer away from something she doesn't like, she pretty much jumps out of her skin. 

As for Harley, he's never been like he was today, so I'm chalking it up to the weird weather we've been having. Also, the guy in the video clearly says you shouldn't do this with a big, scary, moving object. Which is exactly what these big trees are. And his initial fear when I was trying to mount him outside the barn was directed at something in the distance which I could not see. How do you overcome fear at something you can't see that is so far away that you can't have a closer look? These "invisible" monsters are the worst. With a rock, you can show them it's nothing to be afraid of, but when it's something they think is lurking in the forest somewhere a mile away, I'm at a loss. 

I do take your point about riding Harley though. I guess the only thing I could have safely done is ride him in the paddock after lunging him in the scary area. But I don't want him to become arena sour so I thought working him in the place he seemed to fear was the best thing to do. I did not, however, have any desire to ride him on that trail today. He's just too unpredictable and I'm home alone all day. Maybe tomorrow.


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## Acadianartist

jaydee said:


> Are they getting a bit clingy with each other?


Actually, since I've gotten in the habit of hand-grazing them individually out of sight of the other one, they're less buddy sour than before. They don't call to each other like they used to when they're separated. So I don't think that was the problem. Harley was just in a tizzy. He is a high-energy horse, after all, but normally I can ride him out. Today though, he was truly terrified. His whole body was shaking. Just getting him out of that state was a small victory.


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## carshon

A good friend of mine has always said - :Live to ride another day. And I take that to heart. I have ridden my entire life. Used to break horses in High School and rode the greenies for a trainer while in college. I am not the most technical rider but have some experience. After marriage and kids and losing my riding horse of 20+ years I had to start over. My confidence on a green horse was not what it used to be and my friend always said. If you are afraid just get off - Live to ride another day. And there were times I got off - and times I decided to stick it out. And guess what? I never ruined the horse I was riding and I am still riding.

When in doubt get off and do what you did- you were safe- Harley was safe. Discouraged yes - but safe to have a go at it on another day.


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## Whinnie

I think you did just fine. I see Smilie's point about lunging first, but you got it done. I had an episode the other day I was not expecting due to a resident goat randomly banging on the outside of the indoor arena.


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## ChitChatChet

carshon said:


> A good friend of mine has always said - :Live to ride another day. And I take that to heart. I have ridden my entire life. Used to break horses in High School and rode the greenies for a trainer while in college. I am not the most technical rider but have some experience. After marriage and kids and losing my riding horse of 20+ years I had to start over. My confidence on a green horse was not what it used to be and my friend always said. If you are afraid just get off - Live to ride another day. And there were times I got off - and times I decided to stick it out. And guess what? I never ruined the horse I was riding and I am still riding.
> 
> When in doubt get off and do what you did- you were safe- Harley was safe. Discouraged yes - but safe to have a go at it on another day.


There are times I have bailed ship. Never regretted it and was able to fix the issue at a later time with no issues.


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## jaydee

Acadianartist said:


> Actually, since I've gotten in the habit of hand-grazing them individually out of sight of the other one, they're less buddy sour than before. They don't call to each other like they used to when they're separated. So I don't think that was the problem. Harley was just in a tizzy. He is a high-energy horse, after all, but normally I can ride him out. Today though, he was truly terrified. His whole body was shaking. Just getting him out of that state was a small victory.


 It was an unpleasant experience but you both came out of it and it wasn't a 'fail' so put it behind you now
We've had weird experiences with horses over the years - the sort where there isn't a real explanation that you can put your finger on. I find that our horses all get 'wired' when there's a bear close by and a friend had a very nasty incident with her old, tried and trusted horse when they had a bear on their property a few months ago. Jazzy had her 'thing' with the forsythia shrub last summer when she and DH parted company in a quite spectacular fashion it was so unexpected and so fast, no clue why and she's never done it again, she isn't a spooky horse at all, I had an Arabian that used to stand and stare at an empty corner in the barn some nights and tremble just like Harley did - they're weird when they want to be!!!


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## Smilie

Acadianartist said:


> Interesting video - thanks Smilie. However, I would point out that for Kodak, we're talking about full-blown explosions, not just turning away from the object. There is literally no time to react because in a second, I'm either on the ground or reining in an out-of-control horse. She takes spooking to a whole new level. It's hard to explain, but I'll try to get video of her doing it when the trainer rides her. She doesn't just veer away from something she doesn't like, she pretty much jumps out of her skin.
> 
> As for Harley, he's never been like he was today, so I'm chalking it up to the weird weather we've been having. Also, the guy in the video clearly says you shouldn't do this with a big, scary, moving object. Which is exactly what these big trees are. And his initial fear when I was trying to mount him outside the barn was directed at something in the distance which I could not see. How do you overcome fear at something you can't see that is so far away that you can't have a closer look? These "invisible" monsters are the worst. With a rock, you can show them it's nothing to be afraid of, but when it's something they think is lurking in the forest somewhere a mile away, I'm at a loss.
> 
> I do take your point about riding Harley though. I guess the only thing I could have safely done is ride him in the paddock after lunging him in the scary area. But I don't want him to become arena sour so I thought working him in the place he seemed to fear was the best thing to do. I did not, however, have any desire to ride him on that trail today. He's just too unpredictable and I'm home alone all day. Maybe tomorrow.


Staying safe, of course, is number one!
Yes, horses being prey species, get more on the alert in wind, as there is both movement and sometimes a horse can't smell, if the wind is blowing in the opposite direction, thus feels more vulnerable.
I have ridden horses lots, in bear country,and when that wind starts to move those trees and willows, they do become more alert/on guard
However, when I think of moving object, it is another animal or any other object that actually comes towards that horse, even cows, if the horse is not used to them. We have encountered horse drawn wagons on occasion, out west, and that can up set a horse, not used to seeing it, as that wagon comes closer


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## Smilie

Just to be clear. Absolutely agree with you getting off, when things became what they did.
My point was not to maybe gotten on him in the first place, when he wouldn't stand and appeared wired, but perhaps done ground work then, thus making your trail ride experience more positive
Horses can take us by surprise, react unexpectedly other then their usual self, and you can't prevent those. However, you can do some 'pre flight' checks to see if a horse is in a listening mode,before getting on.
Glad you are okay, and there is always another day!

This might be helpful. In no way saying you should do it every time, as I certainly don't, esp on one of my broke horses, but if something is off in their attitude, I certainly will
I just got on Smilie last night, and I had not ridden her in almost two years. She went down the road, like her old self, without any hesitation

Horse Pre-Ride Check


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## Acadianartist

You know, I've thought a lot about why I have horses again at 45. First I told myself it was for my daughter, but I quickly came to admit that I was into it more than her. Of course I've loved horses since I can remember, but it would have been much easier to just keep boarding Harley and ride him once in a while, letting someone else deal with the unpleasant stuff. Why did I think it was a good idea to build a barn and buy two horses?

I am not a risk-taker. Not even a little. I do NOT ride roller-coasters. In fact, if I am honest with myself, I may just be a little bit of a control-freak. I overthink and over-analyze, but that's what's made me successful in my professional life. My husband has described me as the most driven person he's ever met. And I do like a challenge. But today, Harley threw something at me that I wasn't sure how to handle. I managed to stay calm, redirect his energy and help him get over his anxiety. I'll have to take that small victory for what it is. I'm no horse whisperer, I'm just a forty-something horsey mom who feels like a bumbling idiot most of the time. I have a PhD, but right now, I feel my farrier knows more than me (and I TOTALLY respect her for it!). 

So I have to believe that I can do this. It's a challenge for me to get over the fear of not being in control, but with a horse, I'm not sure you can ever be in total control. Stuff happens and even the most seasoned horse can have a bad day. I feel I just have to accept it and let go. I think these horses are here to help me do that. I'm not sure how this is all going to play out, but I sure as hell know it's not going to end in me giving up.


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## knightrider

Acadianartist said:


> You know, I've thought a lot about Why did I think it was a good idea to build a barn and buy two horses?
> 
> This! Because it is wonderful to carry your watermelon rinds out to the horses after supper and let them slob all over you. Because after a rotten fight with your husband, you can go and hug the horses, and they hug you back. Because when your child has disappointed you yet again, you can get up early in the morning, when everyone else is asleep, and ride through the dew and morning mist as the birds are waking up, and suddenly, you know you can manage whatever it is that is dragging you down. Having your horse at your own place is so much more intimate, freeing, empowering. That is why. And a thousand more reasons that I'm sure you could name if you thought about it.


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## Acadianartist

knightrider said:


> Acadianartist said:
> 
> 
> 
> You know, I've thought a lot about Why did I think it was a good idea to build a barn and buy two horses?
> 
> This! Because it is wonderful to carry your watermelon rinds out to the horses after supper and let them slob all over you. Because after a rotten fight with your husband, you can go and hug the horses, and they hug you back. Because when your child has disappointed you yet again, you can get up early in the morning, when everyone else is asleep, and ride through the dew and morning mist as the birds are waking up, and suddenly, you know you can manage whatever it is that is dragging you down. Having your horse at your own place is so much more intimate, freeing, empowering. That is why. And a thousand more reasons that I'm sure you could name if you thought about it.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you knightrider. I am in no way regretting any of it. I look forward to cleaning manure out of the paddock. I love Harley's whinnying first thing in the morning. I could not live without being able to look into their eyes and know that I am doing everything I can, every day, to make them happy and comfortable. I love how they look at me and how I can stand beside them and just breathe their scent. I just wonder sometimes if I've lost my mind.
Click to expand...


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## Acadianartist

Smilie said:


> Just to be clear. Absolutely agree with you getting off, when things became what they did.
> My point was not to maybe gotten on him in the first place, when he wouldn't stand and appeared wired, but perhaps done ground work then, thus making your trail ride experience more positive
> Horses can take us by surprise, react unexpectedly other then their usual self, and you can't prevent those. However, you can do some 'pre flight' checks to see if a horse is in a listening mode,before getting on.
> Glad you are okay, and there is always another day!
> 
> This might be helpful. In no way saying you should do it every time, as I certainly don't, esp on one of my broke horses, but if something is off in their attitude, I certainly will
> I just got on Smilie last night, and I had not ridden her in almost two years. She went down the road, like her old self, without any hesitation
> 
> Horse Pre-Ride Check


Thanks Smilie. I should have paid more attention to Harley's mood when he started acting up right at the beginning. I guess I thought he'd get over it. Thanks for the check list.


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## mkmurphy81

Acadianartist said:


> You know, I've thought a lot about why I have horses again at 45. First I told myself it was for my daughter, but I quickly came to admit that I was into it more than her. Of course I've loved horses since I can remember, but it would have been much easier to just keep boarding Harley and ride him once in a while, letting someone else deal with the unpleasant stuff. Why did I think it was a good idea to build a barn and buy two horses?
> 
> I am not a risk-taker. Not even a little. I do NOT ride roller-coasters. In fact, if I am honest with myself, I may just be a little bit of a control-freak. I overthink and over-analyze, but that's what's made me successful in my professional life. My husband has described me as the most driven person he's ever met. And I do like a challenge. But today, Harley threw something at me that I wasn't sure how to handle. I managed to stay calm, redirect his energy and help him get over his anxiety. I'll have to take that small victory for what it is. I'm no horse whisperer, I'm just a forty-something horsey mom who feels like a bumbling idiot most of the time. I have a PhD, but right now, I feel my farrier knows more than me (and I TOTALLY respect her for it!).
> 
> So I have to believe that I can do this. It's a challenge for me to get over the fear of not being in control, but with a horse, I'm not sure you can ever be in total control. Stuff happens and even the most seasoned horse can have a bad day. I feel I just have to accept it and let go. I think these horses are here to help me do that. I'm not sure how this is all going to play out, but I sure as hell know it's not going to end in me giving up.



You sound so much like me! Even the roller-coaster part, lol.

Thank you so much for posting all of your challenges and victories. I'm a few steps behind you. Construction should start on our barn in a few weeks. It will be a while after that before I start seriously looking for kid-proof horses. Following your journey has given me so many ideas of what to do and what to watch out for.

For what it's worth, I think Kodak will end up being a great horse. You don't seem like the type to give up on her.


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## Acadianartist

Hi mkmurphy! As I said, I regret nothing. It is a grand adventure! I love going to the barn several times a day. I love that I get to decide what they eat, when they are out (pretty much all the time) and how they are cared for. 

I think it's a little ironic that I ended up with two horses that are not beginner-safe at all. The first one was sort of understandable - Harley was bought as a show jumper for my daughter so we knew he was sometimes hot. He is so full of personality though, that I love him to bits. He will always have a home with us. Kodak is a challenge. I don't think I have fallen in love with her yet. I feel for her, but her anxiety drives me nuts. Maybe because she's not in my pocket like Harley (who, even at his worst, would try to crawl up on my shoulder if I let him). I'm not the type to give up, but sometimes her personality doesn't endear me to her. 

Best of luck with your barn! And if you truly want kid-proof horses, insist on a trial. Trust me. If they say no to a trial or at least a buy-back contract (which is what we had for Harley), walk away. I was shocked at how many horse dealers are dishonest. With Kodak, I was careful. We rode her twice, on different days, and in different contexts (trail ride, arena). Both my daughter and I rode her. She was fine, except for that one small spook when she was tied to a post. I should never have let my daughter talk me into buying her, but maybe I'll be glad I did eventually.


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## egrogan

Acadianartist said:


> I am not a risk-taker. Not even a little. I do NOT ride roller-coasters. In fact, if I am honest with myself, I may just be a little bit of a control-freak. I overthink and over-analyze, but that's what's made me successful in my professional life. My husband has described me as the most driven person he's ever met. And I do like a challenge. But today, Harley threw something at me that I wasn't sure how to handle. I managed to stay calm, redirect his energy and help him get over his anxiety. I'll have to take that small victory for what it is. I'm no horse whisperer, I'm just a forty-something horsey mom who feels like a bumbling idiot most of the time. I have a PhD, but right now, I feel my farrier knows more than me (and I TOTALLY respect her for it!).


Ha! I could have written this exact paragraph about myself (except I'm not a mom...). I get where you're coming from, more than I can express in a forum. Wish we were closer so we could ride together!!



Acadianartist said:


> So I have to believe that I can do this. It's a challenge for me to get over the fear of not being in control, but with a horse, I'm not sure you can ever be in total control. Stuff happens and even the most seasoned horse can have a bad day. I feel I just have to accept it and let go.


I think you can too. This post is a description of the first experience I ever had taking my horse out of the arena: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/help-behavior-forest-trails-399713/ I can almost still feel the way my heart was pounding that day. And I wrote that post nearly 4 years ago!

I'm certainly no horse whisperer. I'm not a trainer. I'm an average rider at best. But I was lucky to buy an honest horse. If you skim our journal, you can see that we worked through our fair share of tests before we got to the point where we can happily go hacking out alone. Isabel's no push over- she can startle big, and she can test whether I'm really going to make her do something, and she can get pretty forward moving in open spaces- but at the end of the day, she's honest and she will do as much as she can tell I'm confident doing. I can still feel my pulse quicken when we're doing something that makes me feel slightly out of control. And if I can feel it, she can. I've had to train myself to laugh out loud when I get nervous, not clench my teeth and curl up in a ball. And training myself has been the best training I've given her  It will take time, and figuring out what works for you, but I trust you when you say you're not giving up!


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## sarahfromsc

The most rewarding things in life are the things that challenge you.

If every thing came easy what thrill of accomplishment would there be?

Arabs .....*sighs*...... Are wonderfully complex. Heck, after nine years of riding my current Arab he still spooks at purple flowers. We can have deer t-bone us, run under us, turkey fly up in our faces, grouse slamming his chest, but is is purple flowers that he still has an issue with.

Actually when he spooks he is a wonder to be on. It is the smoothest down in the dirt like cornering a cow spook! I never feel as if he is gonna unseat me. Hells Bells, I think I would miss it if he stopped doing it!

You cannot control everything about horses. You cannot over analyze horses, or really life in general.

Drop your stick in the water and see which way it floats....that is life....and when the amazing surprises happen!

And never not enjoy a good spook every now and again.

You sat the spook! That is the silver lining!


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## JulieG

There's a thread on here somewhere that's all about the horse we wanted, the horse we needed and the horse we ended up with. Definitely not always the same for all 3 things!


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## ChitChatChet

Smilie said:


> I have ridden horses lots, in bear country,and when that wind starts to move those trees and willows, they do become more alert/on guard


Then there is my horse giving an evil eye to all dark objects we pass on the trails..... till he sees a bear and then decided following it up the trail would be a great idea. :icon_rolleyes:


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## Acadianartist

egrogan - I read your threads (only the last few of the journal one). Thank you. Wish you were closer too!!! It would be so nice to have someone to ride with.

sarah and Julie - I need to hear these things. There are just days when I get so discouraged. It's my own fault for having unrealistic expectations, but it's hard to let go of those. 

This is why I'm here in this forum.


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## sarahfromsc

ChitChatChet said:


> Then there is my horse giving an evil eye to all dark objects we pass on the trails..... till he sees a bear and then decided following it up the trail would be a great idea. :icon_rolleyes:


True dat!


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## Acadianartist

ChitChatChet said:


> Then there is my horse giving an evil eye to all dark objects we pass on the trails..... till he sees a bear and then decided following it up the trail would be a great idea. :icon_rolleyes:


:rofl::rofl:


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## Smilie

ChitChatChet said:


> Then there is my horse giving an evil eye to all dark objects we pass on the trails..... till he sees a bear and then decided following it up the trail would be a great idea. :icon_rolleyes:


Yes, happens, until they pick up the scent!
I was once in the lead, where a young grizzly bear was digging for ants at the side of the trail. The bear was a 'good bear', and left. None of the horses were upset seeing him, until they reached the spot where he had been digging, and got his scent
Try loading a fresh grizzly bear hid eon your horse! Hubby did! Many years ago, there were still tags on draw for grizzly bears, thus I was with hubby on a spring grizzly bear hunt
Came across a grizzly, in a spring blizzard.I stayed with the horses, and my dumb husband actually went after that grizzly in thick brush on foot, Luck was with him, just when I was wondering as to which horse was the fastest, as I could hear that bear circling back to me and the horses
His horse did draw the line, to packing elk, when he tried to load that hide on him, with the horse's thoughts pretty clear, as he let both back feet fly-'looks like you, but sure as heck does not smell like you!
Another time, when we we building our present house, I found a black bear on the front lawn one morning. The bear took off, running across the pasture,with our entire main herd running after him-until they got his scent,\
They then wheeled around and made tracks in the opposite direction
Horses don;t really identify a predator by sight, and can go ape 's,,t over a pig or even a donkey


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## greentree

As long as you are not falling off, when horses have these moments, laugh. Laugh at them, laugh at yourself, even if it is fake, because that keeps you breathing. It makes you relax, even if it is only a little. 
Tell them, out loud and laughing, that they are silly creatures, and you are not going to let anything get them! 

Every day is a new day to a horse, especially an Arabian.


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## ChitChatChet

Smilie said:


> Yes, happens, until they pick up the scent!
> I was once in the lead, where a young grizzly bear was digging for ants at the side of the trail. The bear was a 'good bear', and left. None of the horses were upset seeing him, until they reached the spot where he had been digging, and got his scent
> Try loading a fresh grizzly bear hid eon your horse! Hubby did! Many years ago, there were still tags on draw for grizzly bears, thus I was with hubby on a spring grizzly bear hunt
> Came across a grizzly, in a spring blizzard.I stayed with the horses, and my dumb husband actually went after that grizzly in thick brush on foot, Luck was with him, just when I was wondering as to which horse was the fastest, as I could hear that bear circling back to me and the horses
> His horse did draw the line, to packing elk, when he tried to load that hide on him, with the horse's thoughts pretty clear, as he let both back feet fly-'looks like you, but sure as heck does not smell like you!
> Another time, when we we building our present house, I found a black bear on the front lawn one morning. The bear took off, running across the pasture,with our entire main herd running after him-until they got his scent,\
> They then wheeled around and made tracks in the opposite direction
> Horses don;t really identify a predator by sight, and can go ape 's,,t over a pig or even a donkey


I figured they had to have picked up on his scent as we where less than a 100 feet from him when we first saw him. The bear wasn't acting like he caught our scent so am pretty sure the breeze was going our direction.


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## Smilie

Different, as most horses that live in areas where there are predators, sure know that by scent!
If a horse is apprehensive going through thick willow, testing the air, and where I really can't see, I take notice!


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## jaydee

I find horses are more fazed by animals (or scents of animals) they aren't used too than they are by figuring them out to be predators. My horses had never encountered bears before they came here so they regard them as something alien, we lived next door to cattle in the UK and regularly rode bridle paths through cattle fields so our UK horses have no fear of them at all and since they seem to regard deer as being off little cows they aren't bothered by them yet one of our US horses is still very wary of deer when they're moving around the perimeter of the fields here.
Arabians seem to be more imaginative than the average horse so not hard for them to turn a tree into a giant monster


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## Acadianartist

Well, it's not impossible that there was a bear in the area, but it sure wasn't right where the horse thought it was since we got right up close and walked around both sides of the thicket. I suppose something else could have been in there, but judging by how Harley reacted to something off in the distance coming out of the barn (in a different direction altogether), and how he was when I walked him on the trail, I think he was just in a mood. The weather has been unusually cool the last couple of days as a cold front blows through. Maybe that has something to do with it. 

I fully expected Kodak to be terrified a while ago, when a deer jumped out behind her, but she just looked at it and looked back at me calmly. Harley isn't fond of deer, on the other hand. Once I was hand-grazing him in a field and a bunch of deer bounded through. He was pretty much running circles around me. Surprisingly, he seems to like our dogs. Because they're so small (mini dachshunds), I think he's intrigued by them. Sometimes when I hand-graze the horses, one of the dogs that is very attached to me will sit beside my feet and watch the horse graze. The other day, Harley got his nose right up to the dog and had a big sniff. The dog kind of curled his lip, but didn't move away. I'm really glad not to have to worry about aggression on the part of either. Of course I do NOT allow the dogs to go in the pasture and if we're riding, I shut them in the house.


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## Smilie

I do take our dog on some trail rides, as he loves the exercise, and it is actually a good way to de-spook horses from noise in the under brush, as our dog will run in and out of it, making quite abit of noise at times.
Deer don't bother our horses, as they are very common here. My brother from ONtario, remarked that they are as common as rabbits out here!
Only time a deer bothered Carmen, is when she could not see it was a deer!
We had our dog Heff along, and it was a windy day, causing the brush , willows and trees to move on both sides of that trail. Heff must have spotted a deer, that we had not noticed, and took off. He still can't control that initial dash, but will come back when called!
Anyway, all I and Carmen saw, was a streak of brown crashing through the brush. Pretty sure it was not acougar, but had no way of telling Carmen that!
She thus went on full alert, first blowing that warning snort through her nose, as horses do, and then proceeded down that trail, very tense, watching every movement. It took about three or four miles to get my usual horse back.
Another time, Heff chased a rabbit pretty much under Carmen. He must hav ebeen a domestic rabbit someone dropped off, as he was very stupid!
He first appeared on the trail ahead of us, and ran into the under brush, before our dog spotted him
I thought, 'good;. Then that stupid rabbit came hopping back onto the trail, and the chase was on! The rabbit ran right under Carmen, who just bunched up and froze. Had it been Charlie, pretty sure I would have had a rodeo!
My horses don't live with cows, but they do get to see them, riding down the road, or on grazing leases , where they also have to get used to those cattle at times, running up to them!
We also have a bison farm several miles down from us-now seeing those shagging beasts, in among trees, is an entirely different thing!
Elk are a lot bigger then deer, and when they are in large herds, even I can smell them
Wolves are scary, in packs! They have eliminated much of the elk calves survival at the Ya Ha, and I do not like camping in areas, tying up my horses over night, if a pack is in that area


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## Smilie

Carmen's first glimpse of elk



Grizzly, whose hide hubby's hrose refused to pack, and in fact, left after his protest, and I had to ride all the way back to base camp to catch him!



Good way to de sensitize a horse, is to pack him-not nessisarily with game, but a friend of ours would pack a spooky reactive horse with panniers that contained something that rolled around and made noise, for the first day, and then would ride him
It does teach a horse to gauge width between trees!



Here is ablack bear, right in with cows, who have a curious look, and no more


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## Bondre

I often take my dog (a mutt crossbred with Pyrenean mastiff, so fairly large) out riding with me as she loves it. My horse is less enthusiastic but she has learnt to tolerate the dog's presence. The dog has caused a few spooks, the most notable one being when we had been cantering and the dog got left behind. We stopped to wait and I let Macarena browse on the grass beside the track. We were both totally relaxed, when suddenly the long grass moved and my quietly grazing horse leapt forward into a canter like a flash. I rapidly gathered my reins, got her controlled and looked back: sure enough it was my dog who had spooked Macarena with her unexpected arrival.

Sorry to hear that Harley gave you a bad ride, but it sounds like you coped well. They all have bad days at times, and I agree with everyone else whose said that when in doubt, dismount. I have done that a few times and haven't regretted it - although I don't much like an explosive horse on the end of the lead, it's slightly preferable to having it underneath you.


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## ChitChatChet

jaydee said:


> I find horses are more fazed by animals (or scents of animals) they aren't used too than they are by figuring them out to be predators. My horses had never encountered bears before they came here so they regard them as something alien, we lived next door to cattle in the UK and regularly rode bridle paths through cattle fields so our UK horses have no fear of them at all and since they seem to regard deer as being off little cows they aren't bothered by them yet one of our US horses is still very wary of deer when they're moving around the perimeter of the fields here.
> Arabians seem to be more imaginative than the average horse so not hard for them to turn a tree into a giant monster


I think so too. I know our horses know what bears are because of where the horses vacation. I have seen some pretty large tracks we have see.

Horses, when they haven't seen a donkey before :shock:. LOL Never failed. Or my donkey when he saw a pot bellied pig :racing: He ran that things clear out of the county.


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## jaydee

Our big dogs have always been around the horses in the barn and on the yard but I wouldn't trust the little one's purely because they don't have the sense to stay out of the way and would easily get trodden on though Mungo expects them to carefully walk around him or even over him when he's too lazy to move I make him get up out of their way. I trust all of them in the field with him except Jazzy and she plays too rough, tries to pick him up by his tail so he stays in a run when they're out.


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## karliejaye

jaydee said:


> I find horses are more fazed by animals (or scents of animals) they aren't used too than they are by figuring them out to be predators.




Yes! At the barn I grew up in, we had a cougar in the area for about 2 months before fish and wildlife got it trapped and relocated. Most of the other horses were undone during that time, but mine could care less. It was quite odd so we assumed he had encountered cougar before without a deadly ending. 
But then I had to take him up to the animal hospital monthly for sarcoid treatments. The first few times he flipped his lid over llamas. The poor chap finally got over the llamas when the next time we came up there were camels. The BIG two humped ones. We thought he was going to have a heart attack as soon as we unloaded him. Ended up having to put a wet rag over his nose and blind fold him to get him in the doors.


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## Acadianartist

Like you jaydee, I would worry that one of our dogs would get stepped on. Usually the one who is very attached to me will make sure to stay behind my legs, on the other side of the horse. He doesn't bark at the horses, except when they're shut in their stalls and then he lets loose, LOL. He knows they can't get to him. But let a horse out, and the dog is hiding behind my legs again. Our other doxie is a rescue and has a strong predator instinct so while I don't think he would go after our horses, I'm not taking any chances. Generally, he just ignores the horses though.


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## jaydee

We used to have fun riding past a place in the UK that had Llama's and I'm certain camels would get a strong reaction from most of ours though its always hard to predict with them, Jazzy seems to regard anything that's animal or bird as something to try to get hold of and drag around, we had a moose (quite a rarity here) find its way along the river bank one day and she was right up by the fence studying it and all of the others were as far away as they possibly could be.


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## Smilie

Well, we have had a stray lama hanging around. One day he was just on the opposite side of the corral Smilie and Charlie live, with only a tree line and a fence between them, so not really possible for them to run
The suspect \neighbour', whose land, but not homestead, is on the other side of the road from us, denied ownership of said beast, but he is infamous for his animals straying, including two mini donkeys that visited us about a year ago, one being a Jack
All the horses were in fear of them, except my boy Einstein, who was still alive then, and who put a run on them
First Lama my old reining mare saw, was at Spruce Meadows, in the parade, during the Masters
I had her there for a reining demo, and all of the horses had to take part in the evening parade through the international jumping ring.
In that line up, a woman leading a lama was right in front of us.She told me to go ahead and let my horse have a smell. I thus gave her a slack rein, and had to quickly 'reel her in, as she lowered her head towards that strange beast, with teeth bared!
We actually met some hikers once, that were using lamas to pack. Don't know how far they got, because a horse can pack way more!
Some of the most problematic animals on rides, in the foothills, are feral horses, esp bachelor studs. They have been kicked out of the herd by the herd stallion, and are on the lookout for a 'woman' If you are riding a mare, they can be a real problem! hubby has had to shoot over the head of some intent "romeo'
Had our dog along once, and told him to chase some studs off. He looked at me, as if it was a trick command, as he has been told to never chase horses!
Then, it kinda became clear once, why perhaps the Parks have rules of not riding with dogs!
We had our dog along (not Heff, as it was before his time) That dog had run in and out of the woods all day, chasing rabbits , squirrels and grouse
In this one particular spot, there is a narrow strip of woods on one side, and with a drop off just past those trees. A cliff wall is on the other side-so no way around.
Our dog suddenly came out of those trees, with an angry cow elk on his heels. She had her tongue hanging out, and was generally '****ed', Of course, the dog ran right back to us and the horses, with that cow elk on his heels, striking with her front feet. She most likely had anew born calf in those woods, and dog looks a lot like a wolf!
As my horse is whirling around, thinking of leaving or bucking, my husband yells, 'take a picture honey!" Yup, just gonna reach in my saddle bags and get er done!
Each time we tried to ride by that spot, she would come charging back out.
Finally my son galloped ahead, calling the dog, who ran at his horse's heels, and behind them both, ran that cow elk
When the predator (dog) was far enough down that trail, she doubled back, and let us and the horses pass, no problem
Far as cougars, only horses that have not lived out among predators, ignor them, not being 'wild smart"
Cougars usually stick to deer, but if they decide to stalk you or a horse, they are very efficient killers
I still recall the story of a woman in BC, riding with her two young sons. A story of a mother's ultimate sacrifice.
The cougar jumped onto one of the horses , her one son was riding, knocking him tot he ground, where the cougar then fixed that child as prey.
She jumped off her own horse, and got the cat to focus on her, telling her sons to go for help.
Unfortunately, by the time they found a hunter, and returned, she was mauled too badly to survive
Horses in the wild, including our present feral horses, do not stick around to see if a cougar has them perhaps targeted as dinner. Those that did, got removed for that genetic pool!


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## sarahfromsc

My Arab loves a dog to ride point! Even if the dog is in and out of the brush or chases and tussles with small wildlife.

The dog is the pint man and the first to get attached! Or so I feel he thinks....lol


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## Smilie

Horses do start to trust a dog they know, to ride point,If my dog stares at something, maybe barks, my horse will look to see what it is
However, that doe snot change the fact,should adog encounter a bear or a couger, who would rather NOT see the last of you, as you of them, their natural instinct is to run back to you, bringing


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## Smilie

Horses do start to trust a dog they know, to ride point,If my dog stares at something, maybe barks, my horse will look to see what it is
However, that doe snot change the fact,should a dog encounter a bear or a cougar, who would rather NOT see the last of you, as you of them, their natural instinct is to run back to you, bringing either that cougar or bear with them!
My friend an dI came across a cat kill, on a grazing lease, The people with rights to that lease, must have missed one cow and calf. We came across a cow, very happy to see us, and you could see the drag marks where a cat had dragged her calf into the under brush.
We informed the people who had that grazing lease, and thy went back with a quad to see that kill, plus they notified Fish and wildlife, as they get compensated fore any confirmed predator kill
By the time the lease people got back there, the cow was no longer alive, and a grizzly bear was standing on her body, threatening to charge
By the time Fish and wild life got back there, there were two grizzlies on that body of the cow!
About 3 years ago, a bow hunter was killed by a grizzly, just across the highway from us. Seems he must have come upon a sow grizzly and her cubs, on a kill
I used to ride there, but have not since then
My friend and I came across a grizzly kill, one spring, just riding in the foothills. We first saw the body of a deer, with part of that deer gone, and the rest left there. At first i thought, 'poacher' hunting out of season. I then noticed a pile of leaves and dirt under a spruce tree,, and instantly knew who had buried the missing parts!
We continued on to a place which had been logged, with trees regrowing. I was riding Einstein, and he stopped to stare.I saw a big brown hump in those spruce trees, and thought, 'elk, with head down to graze.Head came up, and I realized it was the owner of that deer remains, getting some diet variety

Fortunately, he was as happy to see the last of us, as we of him! We (my friend and I ) did return to the trailer, singing all the way


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## Whinnie

@Acadian: A matter of perspective.One of the boarders, who seems to make a competition of everything with me, always asks me how was my ride. I always tell her "Great! Couldn't have been better" She knows I started with an unbroken mare and her gelding has a high level of training. One day, exasperated at a difficult ride on her gelding, she asked me if my mare was really that perfect and never did anything wrong. I told her of course she gets resistant at times and I am still working on a lot of things to gain consistency. I don't think I have ever had a ride that was perfect from start to finish. She asked, "Then why do you always say your ride was great?"


I told her because no matter what happens, I learn to deal with it and get past it and know what to work on to be better the next time. A problem on a ride is an opportunity to correct and learn. I don't give up. That is how you handled Harley. You had a good ride. Just not a very relaxing one


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## Acadianartist

I just wanted to come on to tell you all I had an uneventful trail ride on Kodak this afternoon! Yay! No spooks. Just one little acceleration and then one episode of snorting at a fallen log... but we walked by the offending piece of rotting wood and while she kind of held her head at an angle to see if it was suddenly going to come to life, LOL. Since it didn't, she kind of lost interest and moved on. 

Smilie - your advice regarding my ride on Harley was SO useful I decided to apply it to Kodak! Before we started riding, I could hear my husband working on tightening the fence and opening and closing the big metal gates. Both horses were on high alert about it. So I tacked up Kodak and did ground work with her. Just a lot of walking around the paddock (with me on the ground) zig-zagging, stopping abrutly, turning quickly in different directions. She is really good at following me, but at first, was trying to see what my husband was doing and not really paying attention. When she started to really pay attention to me I praised her lavishly. After that, we did some quick lunging - probably just five minutes per side, w/t. Just enough to get her to pay attention again. Then I hopped on her and out of the paddock and onto the trail we went. My husband was done working on the fence by then, so he was no longer an issue. 

I figure the more uneventful rides we have, the more confident we'll both become. After the ride, I praised her again and scratched her head and neck. She was like a different horse by then. Relaxed and happy to let me love on her. It's weird how she is head-shy at times and LOVES getting her forehead scratched other times. 

Tomorrow, the trainer comes again.


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## Smilie

Good for you!
Had to use my own advise on Charlie, yesterday at a show1
It was the first show for her this year, and in truth< i have really not shown her much-period.
She is a really reactive big motor type horse<Anyway, I did not read her right, did not warm her up enough, plus she was bonded to My friend's horse , her son, that Had spent the night in our barn with her. Anyway, her mind was not with me, an din the warm up, she just about trashed me. I knew she was high and tense, but did not expect her at this point to throw in some sideways leaps and bucks
My friend told me I should just turn my number over, just walk and jog her in those riding classes.
I thought the heck with that-either ride like I used to , or quit !
I thus really worked her around that trailer, using lunging, got back on and had a very good trail pattern, horsemanship and pleasure classes, even though a thunder storm was moving in. 
Keep up the good work!


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## jaydee

I always find it odd that some people will say that they have no use at all for lungeing a horse once they've broken it and gone through the intital basic training process so dismiss it as not something worth doing and yet it can come in really useful at times for many horses/riders


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## Whinnie

Acadianartist said:


> I just wanted to come on to tell you all I had an uneventful trail ride on Kodak this afternoon! Yay! No spooks. Just one little acceleration and then one episode of snorting at a fallen log... but we walked by the offending piece of rotting wood and while she kind of held her head at an angle to see if it was suddenly going to come to life, LOL. Since it didn't, she kind of lost interest and moved on.
> 
> Smilie - your advice regarding my ride on Harley was SO useful I decided to apply it to Kodak! Before we started riding, I could hear my husband working on tightening the fence and opening and closing the big metal gates. Both horses were on high alert about it. So I tacked up Kodak and did ground work with her. Just a lot of walking around the paddock (with me on the ground) zig-zagging, stopping abrutly, turning quickly in different directions. She is really good at following me, but at first, was trying to see what my husband was doing and not really paying attention. When she started to really pay attention to me I praised her lavishly. After that, we did some quick lunging - probably just five minutes per side, w/t. Just enough to get her to pay attention again. Then I hopped on her and out of the paddock and onto the trail we went. My husband was done working on the fence by then, so he was no longer an issue.
> 
> I figure the more uneventful rides we have, the more confident we'll both become. After the ride, I praised her again and scratched her head and neck. She was like a different horse by then. Relaxed and happy to let me love on her. It's weird how she is head-shy at times and LOVES getting her forehead scratched other times.
> 
> Tomorrow, the trainer comes again.



1,000 likes!


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## Bondre

Yay!! Simple groundwork like that is so helpful for getting a horse thinking and focusing on you. Sounds like you did just what was needed and got a relaxed and happy horse as a reward lol. 

I can see you and Kodak making quite the team once you both get to know each other.


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## Acadianartist

Thanks for the support all! It makes all the difference in my ability to deal with Kodak. 

She's not a great lunger, but she is really great at groundwork. So I thought I would build her confidence gradually. In fact, I'm thinking about setting up little patterns and poles to lead her over, introducing things like jump standards (which I wouldn't jump her over, but she needs to get used to seeing them in the paddock when Harley's jumping). But I'll wait for the trainer to come tomorrow and talk to her about it. I don't want to mess with what she's doing. 

I'm also making changes to Kodak's diet. I've now completely taken her off the pelleted food they were both on initially (I just did that to wean Harley off it because it's what the BO fed him). It wasn't a very good quality feed. I now have them both on hay cubes and California Trace. As soon as I get the MagRestore, I will add that as well. I noticed Kodak spends a lot of time licking up the loose salt I throw in a feed pan (on the advice of my horse nutritionist) so she may be mineral deficient. 

I know the behavioral issues, anxiety and possibly even the dietary issues will not change overnight, but as long as I can see incremental improvements, I feel we are moving forward. I know I should expect setbacks too, but small improvements give me hope.


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## egrogan

Awesome news about your uneventful ride!


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## Acadianartist

egrogan said:


> Awesome news about your uneventful ride!


LOL - I think it's a sign of having reached a certain point in your life when something being "uneventful" is reason for celebrating!


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## Smilie

jaydee said:


> I always find it odd that some people will say that they have no use at all for lungeing a horse once they've broken it and gone through the intital basic training process so dismiss it as not something worth doing and yet it can come in really useful at times for many horses/riders


Well, there are always exceptions to everything!
Also a difference in not lunging a broke horse every time before riding,, and lunging one , when one is too 'old' to just have that discussion on their back. 
!0 years ago, I would not have gotten off to lunge. At age 70, with two replaced knees, stupid not to!


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## ChitChatChet

jaydee said:


> I always find it odd that some people will say that they have no use at all for lungeing a horse once they've broken it and gone through the intital basic training process so dismiss it as not something worth doing and yet it can come in really useful at times for many horses/riders


For me, I see it as the same as a parents that counts to 3 for their toddler to behave. I expect my children to behaved when asked.

For my horses, I have always wanted a saddle and ride horse. Its what I demand/ expect and its what I receive.

There are a few times when a quick lunge is very helpful but for the most part I saddle mount and ride off with no issues.... even if there has been a 3+ month vacation for the horse.


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## walkinthewalk

Smilie said:


> Well, there are always exceptions to everything!
> Also a difference in not lunging a broke horse every time before riding,, and lunging one , when one is too 'old' to just have that discussion on their back.
> !0 years ago, I would not have gotten off to lunge. At age 70, with two replaced knees, stupid not to!


Like *Smilie*, I am also a lifetime rider. I am 69.

Just wait until all you young'uns get to our point in life and see how your methods of handling your horses change

By then, if you're smart, you won't be extensively handling young and dumb horses -- you should have had your Keepers with you for a very long time. 

If you did your training jobs correctly, you should pretty much be at a "point and grunt" stage and the horse has an ample amount of respect. That way, when you fall under him while rasping a hoof, he holds his breath until you crawl out from under, rub his shoulder and say "I'm good".

My orneriest, most disobedient horse that sometimes thinks he can rush me thru the paddock gate, literally won't breath until I am safely out from under him. There is no amount of money to buy that and more than makes up for those "I don't have to listen to you" moments --- which are becoming less and less as he ages


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## jaydee

I don't think anyone was suggesting lungeing a horse every time you want to ride it - just that occasionally you find yourself with a horse or a situation that is made safer or easier to work through if the horse knows how to lunge.
If you have a horse that's always the same regardless of how much its ridden, how its managed, where you take it etc then likely you'll never need to lunge it at all after its been broke and knows the basics but in the situation that Acadian is in with two newish horses in new surrounding and she's an older rider that's only just getting back into riding then it's just another useful tool to have in your box if you need it.


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## Acadianartist

Yes, well I don't want to have to lunge a horse every time I ride, nor do I think lunging "to get the energy out" is an approach I'd use. But I do think there are times when a brief lunge can remind the horse to focus on you. I also used lunging as a way to get Harley to w/t/c past the trees that he found so terrifying until he decided they weren't worth the effort of breaking into a gallop every time he went by them. I do think that was a useful time to lunge. Sure, I could have just ridden him around and around in circles, but I'm not a great rider yet and there was a risk he would spook or take off in a full gallop with me on his back. On a lunge line, he could gallop in a circle, going right by the scary trees each time. Eventually, he lost interest. I might have been able to ride him at that point, but then it started to pour and I decided to let him have a bit of grass instead.


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## Smilie

jaydee said:


> I don't think anyone was suggesting lungeing a horse every time you want to ride it - just that occasionally you find yourself with a horse or a situation that is made safer or easier to work through if the horse knows how to lunge.
> If you have a horse that's always the same regardless of how much its ridden, how its managed, where you take it etc then likely you'll never need to lunge it at all after its been broke and knows the basics but in the situation that Acadian is in with two newish horses in new surrounding and she's an older rider that's only just getting back into riding then it's just another useful tool to have in your box if you need it.


Actually, completely agree, and why I suggested that groundcheck/work, before getting on, when her horse was 'high' for some reason, not wanting to stand for mounting,acting distracted.
Using lunging, when needed, to get a horse thinking again, focusing on you, is way different then lunging a horse before each time you ride, hoping to wear him down
Know your horse, and use what is needed in nay situation. For me, it was far better to lunge Charlie near the trailer, where her son was tied, get her listening, then get back on and ride her successfully in her classes, then to have had a possible wreak, or just to have decided that day was not a good say to try and show her, thus cancel classes , load hre up and go home.
I did what I needed to do, to get the job done
I could also not have gotten the same job done at home, as I always just get on her, and either rider her in my outdoor, in my pasture, or down the road, and she never even thinks of acting up.
She is different then all her half siblings. Never met her sire, as I bred her using transported semen. At 16.1hh, with lots of muscle, if she gets hot, there is alot more horse then someone my age can just ride it out at times, esp as she still gets up tight working around lots of other horses in close quarters, still remmebering when a horse ran into her, running backwards, and then herself being hooked with that rider's spurs enough to draw blood.


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## JulieG

I do the same sometimes. My mare care really have a mind of her own, and if she hasn't been out in a week or more for whatever reason, she needs a gentle reminder that I'm the one who makes decisions in our partnership, not her. Lunging definitely helps!


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## Acadianartist

Just thought I'd come back to update you all on Kodak. She is definitely much, much better! It's hard to say whether it's the new trainer, the MagRestore, or just time, but her whole attitude is more relaxed. She's more curious and more friendly. She doesn't move away at all when I try to scratch her head. She only moves slightly when I try to halter her, but will let me do it without a real issue. She is just far more easy to work with. I don't have to tip-toe around her anymore. While she'll never be the extrovert that Harley is, and she will still do little spooks over certain things, it's no longer a panic reaction, but rather a desire to move away from whatever scared her and THEN consider the possibility of getting closer. Unlike Harley, who has to mouth everything. If I'm refilling the water trough and lose pressure suddenly, I turn to look behind me and he's standing there, hose in his mouth, grinning like a clown. If I leave the stall door open into the barn aisle while I muck out, he's in there checking out everything. He found a metal thermos and tried banging it against the floor to see if food might come out. Then he played with a plastic bag for a while. Big trees, however, terrify him. 

So anyway, my daughter asked if she and I could do a trail ride a couple of days ago so I put her on Harley and I rode Kodak. Harley was jiggy and all worked up, but Kodak didn't even so much as startle at anything. She was really excellent. 

I'm thinking that with a few more rides, I'll start letting my daughter ride Kodak and I'll get on Harley to see if we can help him get over his silliness. It'll have to wait a bit though, because I threw out my back last Friday and the Dr. does not want me riding until it gets better. Oh, heck, what does she know...


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## walkinthewalk

Great news!

One way to test the MagRestore is to take Kodak off and see how reactive she is, after its had time to leave her system.

You could also try Harley on a half dose (one enclosed scoop daily instead of two) and see if it stops him from being jiggy when he's headed for the woods.

BTW, He is quite the curious fella isn't he


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## egrogan

Such a great update!!


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## Jan1975

Awesome news! Well, not about the back. But the rest, yay!! Harley sounds like such a funny little guy!


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## ChitChatChet

Acadianartist said:


> Just thought I'd come back to update you all on Kodak. She is definitely much, much better! It's hard to say whether it's the new trainer, the MagRestore, or just time, but her whole attitude is more relaxed. )


Magnesium :thumbsup:Takes the edge right off


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## Acadianartist

walkinthewalk said:


> Great news!
> 
> One way to test the MagRestore is to take Kodak off and see how reactive she is, after its had time to leave her system.
> 
> You could also try Harley on a half dose (one enclosed scoop daily instead of two) and see if it stops him from being jiggy when he's headed for the woods.
> 
> BTW, He is quite the curious fella isn't he


Yes, I thought of both those ideas... but the MagRestore is pricey for me at 50$ a bag (exchange, tax, shipping - the usual) so I'm saving it for Kodak. When it runs out, I'll see how she is and whether I need to order another bag. As for Harley, I think he can get over it. I can deal with his jiggyness and foolishness, because I know it's not fear - he's far too interested in everything. He found a scary plastic grocery bag in the barn the other day and played with it for 15 minutes. Desensitizing him would be hilarious. I can picture him walking around the paddock with an umbrella in his mouth. There was just that one time I felt uncomfortable on him. 99% of the time he may be jiggy, but has never spooked or threatened to dump me. That said, if I can't get him to settle down on trails now that he has a buddy who is calming down nicely, the MagRestore is something I will certainly consider.


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## Whinnie

It sounds like things are going your way! I am sure it was a combination of things, settling in to the new environment, supplement, training and feed. I am so pleased for you!


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## carshon

So very very happy to read this update! Can't wait to here more good news from your next ride. But LISTEN to your Dr! Take care of yourself.


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## Acadianartist

carshon said:


> So very very happy to read this update! Can't wait to here more good news from your next ride. But LISTEN to your Dr! Take care of yourself.


Thanks... the back is getting better slowly, but I haven't ridden her since that trail ride just to make sure it's fully healed. A few more days and I should be ok. She remains much more relaxed though, and is now showing interest in people around her rather than hanging back with her head down in a submissive/fearful stance. Yesterday, one of my daughter's friends came over and walked right over to her in the paddock and started stroking her on the shoulder. Kodak had her head up, but didn't even move away! I was a little shocked! I had warned this kid that Kodak was nervous and that she should not make any sudden moves, but she walked right over to her when I wasn't looking. It's hard to describe, but it's like the anxiety is subsiding and being replaced with a little more curiosity and interest in her surroundings. 

I'm not saying she won't spook at all - the other day, I took her out to hand-graze and she started when I opened a pop can. Of course I had anticipated that she might find that noise frightening, but my approach is that while I'm careful around her, I don't coddle her when it comes to things she might be exposed to around our property and our kids. She just kind of planted her feet and looked at me and the can, but then decided it wasn't really a threat and went back to grazing. 

I look forward to riding her again soon! And Harley too, so he can get over his silliness.


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## Smilie

Sounds positive!
When they get really trail broke, you can open that can on their back!


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## LoriF

Acadianartist said:


> I'm also making changes to Kodak's diet. I've now completely taken her off the pelleted food they were both on initially (I just did that to wean Harley off it because it's what the BO fed him). It wasn't a very good quality feed. I now have them both on hay cubes and California Trace. As soon as I get the MagRestore, I will add that as well. I noticed Kodak spends a lot of time licking up the loose salt I throw in a feed pan (on the advice of my horse nutritionist) so she may be mineral deficient.


Since I've taken my horses off of hard feed they have been doing so much better. I give them all of the grass and grass hay that they want, a few pounds of alfalfa cubes mixed with California Trace, ground flax, yea-sacc and salt. The difference in how they look and act is like night and day. My mare that is nursing is back on hard feed but she really needs the calories right now. I really think you will like your new feeding program.



Acadianartist said:


> I know the behavioral issues, anxiety and possibly even the dietary issues will not change overnight, but as long as I can see incremental improvements, I feel we are moving forward. I know I should expect setbacks too, but small improvements give me hope.


I'm really happy for you that there is so much improvement in Kodak. I always felt it was just a matter of giving her time. I really think that you will grow to love her, she seems like a really nice mare.


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## jaydee

Sounding positive. Hope your back recovers soon.


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## Smilie

ChitChatChet said:


> Magnesium :thumbsup:Takes the edge right off


 Yes it will, but only if your horse is magnesium deficient in the first place!


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## Acadianartist

We had our fourth session with the trainer yesterday, and she finally said it's now time for me to get on Kodak. Not that I haven't been riding her - I have, mostly on trails, and she's been good - but this was the first time I rode her during a training session. Kodak has now been desensitized to tarps, umbrellas and plastic bags, and seems to be ok during ground sessions with the trainer. She hasn't spooked badly in a long time, but she started spooking again in the paddock and in her stall. For example, I was scratching her in the paddock one day and my husband was loading the back of the truck with some metal. Keep in mind, the paddock is a solid 200 ft from the house so he wasn't right next to us. And he didn't even bang the metal - I heard nothing, I just figured out why she spooked after it happened. She took off while I was scratching her belly. Not as bad a spook as I've seen, but if she had gone in a different direction, she could have knocked me over. I'm hoping she makes a conscious choice to spook AWAY from me rather than INTO me. 

She will often jump when I enter the barn, but once she realizes it's me, she's fine. However, I'm concerned (and have talked to the trainer about this) that she has come to trust the trainer and myself, but if it's a new person, we're starting from scratch again. For example, I had my daughter refill the haynets the other day. Kodak was in her stall, but I can get in and out easily - she'll move away from me so I can get to the haynet, but she doesn't do it suddenly. When my daughter walked into her stall, she just about jumped out of her skin. It wasn't just moving out of the way, it was a nervous jump. Again, she moves AWAY from people, so my daughter wasn't at risk, but it made me wonder whether we've just been desensitizing her to specific people rather than situations. The trainer says she will generalize, but it will take time. We might enlist the help of my kids to do some of the training sessions with us. 

Anyway, back to the riding. While Kodak's not spooking as much, which is great, she still has the problem I had noticed at the trot. I ask her to trot and she doesn't do anything so I ask her harder. Eventually, she trots, and immediately launches into a canter. So I try to slow her back down to the trot. She was wearing the trainer's bitless bridle yesterday and when I tried to slow her down, she would throw her head up in the air and have an argument with me. Eventually I did get her to just trot all the way around both ways, but the steering was pretty off. The trainer said not to worry about it - as long as I was keeping the trot, I could work on precision later. However, there is another issue, which is that her trot is fast and nervous. To encourage a slower trot, the trainer actually jogged alongside her one time around and bingo, a delightful, slow, relaxed trot with a happy horse. No trainer = a fast, nervous trot with her head up in the air. 

So we know she can do a slow trot, but for whatever reason, tends to go fast instead. I feel it's anxiety again. She was really, really tired by the end of our 2 hr session yesterday (yes, she is totally out of shape! But it was hot too) and still, the fast trot and desire to canter. 

One thing we are now considering is saddle fit and/or back issues. So I'm having my equine massage therapist and saddle fitter come out in a couple of weeks to evaluate her. We know my saddles don't fit her well. We tried three yesterday, and the one that fit her the best still left an uneven sweat pattern on her back. Where her shoulder meets her back, there is a huge hollow where the saddle is not meeting flesh. In other words, it is bridging. I put in extra padding and inserts (maybe not enough), but her conformation is so unusual that I suspect it will be extremely difficult to find her a saddle that fits. Hopefully the saddle fitter can give me some ideas. At this point, I will buy any saddle that fits her, whether it's English or Western. But I need to find saddles I can try because I've already bought 4 online that can't be returned and I can't afford to keep doing that. There is my close contact saddle that is out on loan right now which we had on her initially so I will try that one again. Maybe I need a cutback saddle so it rests behind her withers? She is also a bit rump high so I don't want something that will make me feel like I'm falling on her neck. 

So while it was discouraging for me that I couldn't get her to do a nice, slow trot, I am trying to focus on the positives. She hasn't spooked badly in a long time. The trainer did a couple of sudden starts near us while I was riding her and she didn't react much. She is far more relaxed around the barn and lets me do whatever I want to her head (where she used to be extremely head shy), in fact, she walks up to me for full-frontal head scratches now. She trusts me to walk around her, approach her, get in and out of her stall easily. She is trying, even when she's tired and hot and frustrated.


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## carshon

I see a lot of positives in your post. I understand your frustration because you thought you bought a beginner horse and she is not. The nerves will calm down - her fear of other people will abate. It sounds like she was trained to go from a walk to a canter and the trot was punished. She will get there. It really seems like she is a super willing horse and does try.

Hang in there - I see a lot of great things in your post.

PS- I am glad your back feels better


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## horseluvr2524

I was having a heck of a time trying to find a saddle that fit my mare. She had deep hollows on both sides of her withers: muscle atrophy from saddles that didn't fit quite right, though they appeared to. I also found it hard to get impulsion and comfortable, relaxed work out of her, important in dressage!
Rather than playing musical saddles (I really can't afford to do that anyway and already have a very nice, expensive dressage saddle), I did a little research and decided to take a chance. I ordered the Protector pad. It costs as much as a used good quality saddle does! However, my mare is completely different because of it. She has impulsion, moves out easily and happily, her back is stronger than ever, and the hollows have completely filled back in!

Just letting you know what worked for my hard to fit mare


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## Acadianartist

horseluvr2524 said:


> I was having a heck of a time trying to find a saddle that fit my mare. She had deep hollows on both sides of her withers: muscle atrophy from saddles that didn't fit quite right, though they appeared to. I also found it hard to get impulsion and comfortable, relaxed work out of her, important in dressage!
> Rather than playing musical saddles (I really can't afford to do that anyway and already have a very nice, expensive dressage saddle), I did a little research and decided to take a chance. I ordered the Protector pad. It costs as much as a used good quality saddle does! However, my mare is completely different because of it. She has impulsion, moves out easily and happily, her back is stronger than ever, and the hollows have completely filled back in!
> 
> Just letting you know what worked for my hard to fit mare


Thanks! I'm open to ALL suggestions at this point! My trimmer, who is a very knowledgeable horse person, was in this morning and offered to let me try her treeless saddle so I may give it a go. She also suggested that the hollow behind her shoulder was due to ill-fitting saddles in the past. Sounds very similar to your mare! She suggested an equine massage therapist, which I had already thought of and have booked for two weeks from now. My trimmer thinks the massage therapist may be able to help improve her range of motion and undo some of the damage. I will like into the Protector Pad! Sounds like it might very well be what I need. 

I can only imagine what it must feel like to try to move in a relaxed way when every step you take pinches your shoulder and/or back. I'd be moving funny too.


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## Acadianartist

carshon said:


> I see a lot of positives in your post. I understand your frustration because you thought you bought a beginner horse and she is not. The nerves will calm down - her fear of other people will abate. It sounds like she was trained to go from a walk to a canter and the trot was punished. She will get there. It really seems like she is a super willing horse and does try.
> 
> Hang in there - I see a lot of great things in your post.
> 
> PS- I am glad your back feels better


Thanks Carshon. I am trying very hard to stay positive with this mare. But today, while the trimmer was working with her, she ducked under her neck, which is something I do all the time, but Kodak panicked. She was on cross-ties and pulled back. She didn't get completely unhinged and relaxed pretty quickly, but this is another example of her responding to something pretty normal in an unpredictable way. The trimmer apologized and said she should have known better. She was mostly very kind and slow with her, but it's easy to forget that Kodak is spooky because she can be very relaxed one minute and in full-blown panic the next. This time, it wasn't anything too severe, but it does stress me that she can react anytime. 

And yes, my back is much better, thankfully! I'm almost back to my normal self, but the pain is still there, as an occasional reminder not to overdo it. Which is hard with two kids and two horses. I feel I should do something to prevent re-injury and am looking into pilates or yoga classes. I know I need to strengthen my core and it would only benefit my riding as well.


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## jaydee

It's a shame that she's been handled and ridden so badly in the past because I'm sure that's the root of all of her problems. 
I'm sure that she will eventually get over it though some of the distrust and anxiety will stay buried deep down it won't be anywhere like as apparent as it is now
The more you expose her to things in a casual way the better she'll be for it
If you can find a good massage therapist I would highly recommend you use one


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## Acadianartist

jaydee said:


> It's a shame that she's been handled and ridden so badly in the past because I'm sure that's the root of all of her problems.
> I'm sure that she will eventually get over it though some of the distrust and anxiety will stay buried deep down it won't be anywhere like as apparent as it is now
> The more you expose her to things in a casual way the better she'll be for it
> If you can find a good massage therapist I would highly recommend you use one


Thanks jaydee. Yes, I think her past will always be with her. It is a shame that such a nice horse was almost ruined. I don't know if I will end up keeping her or selling her, but to sell her now would be to sell a horse with a lot of problems. We will keep working with her until I feel I have reached the limit of what I and the trainer can do. At that point, IF we decide to sell her, at least we will be able to better describe her limitations/issues. In a way, I'm the last person who should be working with a horse like her, but she's here now and I feel a responsibility to her. In the wrong hands, she might end up going to slaughter because she's just too dangerous. In the right hands, she might thrive. For now, she'll have to settle for these hands which are very imperfect, but well-meaning and patient. And in the meantime, I am having to overcome my own anxieties about riding a spooky horse. 

Massage therapy is something I am certainly considering. For both of us!!!


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## jaydee

It can be a long haul but when you see them start to develop trust and do what you ask of them willingly, because they want too and not because they're afraid not too then it will feel worth the effort.
The longer I have Lou the more I believe that at some time in her life she was trained and treated very well because it starts to show now that she's mostly relaxed around us, it's such a shame that someone got hold of her that almost destroyed all of that good work.


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## Acadianartist

I just wanted to add that we just had the most awesome trail ride tonight with Kodak and Harley! My daughter suggested it and at first, I thought evening's not a good time to ride because the bugs are awful. But then I realized maybe I need to be a little more flexible and open to changing things up (I normally only ride in the morning). So I said sure and asked if she wanted to ride Kodak. She said yes right away. I felt like it was worth a try. I knew Kodak would most likely be ok with Harley right in front of her and the last time we headed out Harley was jiggy and hard to control on the way back so I wanted to work on that. 

So I slathered on the bug spray on both horses, tacked up, put my daughter on Kodak, hopped on Harley and went around the paddock a couple of times. I asked my daughter if she was ok, and whether she wanted to switch horses, but she said no. Then I opened the gate and led the way out. It was simply perfect. My daughter and Kodak hit it right off. There were no issues at all. On the way back, when Harley got a little jiggy and got too far ahead of Kodak, I made him stop and turn around to face Kodak who was meandering our way. He was fine and just stood and waited until I asked him to move on. Normally he'd be prancing in place!!! 

The bugs were really not bad (my daughter and I had sprayed on some Deep Woods which also helped deter them) and both horses were so relaxed and happy. My daughter was quite proud of herself after too! I thanked her for helping me work with Kodak and she said "Mom, you know I never back down from a challenge!" I could not be more pleased than I am right this moment.


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## horseluvr2524

Acadianartist said:


> Thanks! I'm open to ALL suggestions at this point! My trimmer, who is a very knowledgeable horse person, was in this morning and offered to let me try her treeless saddle so I may give it a go. She also suggested that the hollow behind her shoulder was due to ill-fitting saddles in the past. Sounds very similar to your mare! She suggested an equine massage therapist, which I had already thought of and have booked for two weeks from now. My trimmer thinks the massage therapist may be able to help improve her range of motion and undo some of the damage. I will like into the Protector Pad! Sounds like it might very well be what I need.
> 
> I can only imagine what it must feel like to try to move in a relaxed way when every step you take pinches your shoulder and/or back. I'd be moving funny too.


The nice thing about the Protector pad is you can use any (treed) saddle you have, provided that it fits the horse reasonably well (I wouldn't try it with an FQHB western saddle on a petite arabian that barely fits in a SQHB, for example). Basically, the pad perfects the fit of the saddle and alleviates pressure points (your saddle fits OK, but it could be better, this pad is for you). I'm not one to normally rave about anything, but my mare's back looks better now than any previous point in time of the 7 years I have owned her. The website (and price) made me apprehensive; it all sounded too good to be true. But it definitely worked for my horse and I think it would work for most horses.

I think that is enough marketing. lol! The pad is made by Len Brown. I don't mind raving about something that has made such a drastic difference for my horse and her well being. Before I ordered the pad, I was on the verge of quitting riding my mare because I could not find a saddle solution and I could not afford a custom saddle. Horses backs change over time as well, so a custom saddle that fit two years ago may not fit two years later. Hence why I love the Protector pad, it really was a huge $$$$ saver for me.

I wish you the best of luck in solving your saddle problems! XD They sure are a pain.

BTW, I used to get my horse chiro/massage quite often. It only worked for a little while, until I had ridden her a few times and then all of the work the chiro/massage had done was undone. I found it to be expensive and pointless until I had my saddle problem fixed, IME. Just keep in mind that those muscles will be tensing right back up with the saddle not fitting right, until that problem is no longer there.


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## Acadianartist

Getting so frustrated with Kodak. She appears to have regressed. I just spent a good half hour chasing her down in the paddock just to get a halter on her. I wanted to measure her for a biothane halter and bridle. She finally stopped running away from me, but when I slowly slipped the halter over her head, she freaked, pulled back hard and I lost her again. Chased her down some more. Finally got her to accept the halter, snapped on the lead, did a bit of ground work and brought her inside. On the cross-ties, she pulled back hard twice. I couldn't get the tape near her face. So I patiently went and got treats, hand-fed them to her, got her to sniff the tape, but anytime I tried to put it over her nose, she backed up hard and threw her head up high. I decided to take her off the cross-ties because I was afraid she'd break them and back into a wall. I put a lead rope on her and took her out into the paddock where I was finally able to get the tape around her nose. I didn't even bother trying to measure behind her ears or where the brow band goes. I knew she'd freak if I tried that. Oh, and when I tried to remove the halter, she panicked again and ended up running around the paddock with it half hanging off her head. I finally got it off and she just stood there besides me quietly after it was off. 

The other day, she had a little episode where she managed to wedge herself in her stall door. I was bringing Harley in to put him on the cross-ties and she was following behind him. She entered his stall so I told her to whoa, and then back out. She started to move backwards and her butt hit the side of the door so she swung her head around and tried going out head-first but without moving her butt. She realized her predicament as she was stuck there, and panicked. She shoved herself out of the stall so hard she ripped a bunch of hair off her neck. It bled a bit, but did not seem like too serious an injury. I looked her over really well afterwards. Keep in mind I did not yell, wave or act aggressively when I asked her to leave the stall. I just calmly asked her to back out and she freaked. 

I don't know what I will do with this horse. I feel I need to sell her but my daughter has a crying fit every time I mention getting another horse. 

The trainer is coming back Monday so I will talk to her about it. 

I have her on magnesium and on a calming supplement that contains chamomile. 

Maybe I should also mention that Harley did a horse show last weekend and was away for a day which seemed to really upset Kodak. Her stool became runny again and has been since then. I think she may also be in heat because she's squirting again. 

The only thing I can do with her is ground work right now. Once she is haltered and has a lead rope on her, she will match my every step. But I don't think I could have gotten a bridle on her this morning without someone getting hurt.


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## natisha

Have you tried a little 'tough love' with her?


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## Smilie

You are making good progress, and time and consistency will be your best help
Far as any spooking, even though she has become so much better, what works is to actually exposure such a horse to random motion and noise
There is a good ground exercise that Stacy Westfall demonstrated at one Mane Event
Take a lunge whip, and while leading Kodiak, just slap the ground ahead of her, on either side, like a pendullum. At first she might react quite strongly, but then will be lulled by that regular back and forth. That is when you suddenly slap one side very hard, and she will startle, then go back tot hat regular back and forth
Each time, she will react less to that sudden random hard slap.
Far as your trimmer, she was very wrong to duck under those cross ties, esp on a horse she does not know that well. I would in fact, have her tied with just a lead shank, as horses feel less 'traped' that way


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## Smilie

Just read your last post, and I agree that you need to use some tough love, and stop treating her like she needs kit gloves.
First, do not use cross ties, as any horse that offers to setback, does not belong in them. They need to learn to accept standing tied solid first
Expect her to accept things, as she has been haltered lots, and ditto to the bridle
Work on each step.
Make her lower her head and keep it there. If she raises it, when asked to be bridled, go back to enforcing step one, ect.
Yes, thsi mare has past history, but I believe she is also getting your number
She co operates, when going on a ride with her buddy, but as soon as asked to work out of her comfort zone, , tests just how reactive /stupid she can be
I doubt your issue is saddle fit, but rather when she can act resistant, she does-like put her head up in the air, riding, when she most likely knows darn well how to give correctly
Harley is a gelding, and you now have a mare to work with Yes, they can become difficult when it heat< IF ALLOWED to be so. You are working with a breeding animal that has a strong drive to re produce
Thus, you either have to train a mare to ignor those hormones, just like a stallion, when she is either worked or ridden, or re sort to chemical help, but never to excuse mare behavior because she is in heat
The only way she is going to be more relaxed, accept Harley being away at a show, is to often have her separate from him, learning to accept that separation, and also realizing then, that he will return


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## Woodhaven

I don't know what type of tape you were using, some horses react to the metal ones that make a noise and rattle when pulled out. I doubt you were using one of those as they are not as accurate but if you want to get her measurements quickly without spending a lot of time desensitizing her, I have used a string on a fussy horse to get the measurement then measured the string with the measuring tape. They don't seem to mind a string as much as a tape.

She definitely needs to behave when you do these things with her and this is just a suggestion to speed up getting the measurements now.

You did the right thing taking her off the cross ties in that situation.

Some horses simply have a reactive personality and that is just the way they are. A lot can be done with them with work and training but it takes a lot of work and time and the basic personality is always there. How much actual time does your daughter spend with Kodak? If she doesn't do much with her she may be upset at the thought of selling her but if she were actually gone, wouldn't miss her much as she mainly rides Harley and another horse could easily take her place in your daughter's affection.


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## jaydee

You will have set backs Acadian - it doesn't help with horses like her that you'll never know the extent of what happened to her to make her like this but it's not going to go away in a few weeks, you just have to take a deep breath and put the negative incidents behind you and carry on - or alternatively sell her to someone who is looking for a project horse and be totally honest about her
I see no point where in any of the things that happened where 'tough love' would have been of any use at all and getting too forceful with her will likely just set you back even further because it was being handled too forcefully and aggressively that got her into this state in the first place.
I thing clicker raining was already suggested - it's something I would try with her.
We had a member called Punkstank who had a Canadian mare that made Kodak look like a child's first pony - she did amazingly well using Clicker training, getting tough was definitely not the right answer for her horse either.


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## Acadianartist

Thanks for your suggestions all. 

Not sure what is meant by "tough love" but this is not a horse that reacts well to brute force. She is clearly terrified sometimes. Other times yes, she is just avoiding something she doesn't want. When she is just testing me (and even when she is genuinely terrified), I don't let her go. She has not gotten herself loose once while in my care by pulling back, whether on cross-ties or on a lead rope. I don't put her in a situation where that will happen because I don't want her to learn that she can get free, but of course I have no way of knowing whether she's learned that elsewhere.

You're all right in saying it's normal to have setbacks. After I wrote this morning's post, I chatted with my daughter again who was crying and said she'd work with Kodak every day so we could keep her. Because that's what we're going to have to do. I had been busy this last week with Harley's show and having a non-horsey houseguest so hadn't handled Kodak a lot. That changes today. From now on, nothing good happens to Kodak without her getting her halter on at first. Every feeding, every treat, every time she goes out into the pasture, she has to have her halter put on first. At lunchtime, I usually fill their slow-feeder nets with hay so I asked my daughter to come with me, got my daughter to put Harley in his stall and then shut Kodak's stall door. She was still in the paddock. She ran up to her stall door, expecting me to open it, so I showed her the halter. When I approached her to put it on, she ran off. But came right back and stood in front of her stall again. I approached her with the halter and she moved away. We did one or two full circles as she kept moving away from me. Finally, she gave up, let me put on the halter without any panicking. I led her into her stall, tied her in there and shut the door behind her. I then got her haynet, filled it and placed it within her reach. Then I removed the lead line but left the halter on for a few minutes, did a couple of chores, went back in her stall and removed the halter. 

The idea is to do this several times a day. I haven't been doing it often enough and realized I'd inadvertently been making it too easy for her by always doing things with Harley. I agree with you that she needs to be separated from him and I have to be able to handle her without having Harley by her side, but I will use Harley to get her to comply for now. 

As for desensitizing her, we've been doing that with tarps, umbrellas and other things, but had never used a tape. And no, it wasn't a metal tape, it was the weight tape I use to measure the horses' girths. 

It was just so discouraging to see her revert back to old behaviors that I thought we'd eliminated, but after going back out at lunch time and haltering her without any incidents, I'm encouraged that it was a temporary lapse. 

Will consider clicker training. I have done it with my dogs, but am not sure how I'd apply it to horse training, especially to a horse that panics and backs up hard. The only thing I can think to do when she does that is wait for it to pass and not let her get out of doing what I want her to do. In other words, I stay with her until she stops pulling back and then we go back to doing what we were doing. But I do need her to learn to stand on cross-ties. That's how everyone does things around here, from the vet to the farrier to the equine massage therapist coming to check her out next week. And if I'm alone grooming or tacking up, the cross-ties are far easier and safer than tying her somewhere. She was standing in them fine before, I don't know what got into her today.


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## jaydee

Look through Shawna's YT videos as there might be something in there that could help - she'll also answer questions you might have about using clicker for various things
https://www.youtube.com/user/shawnakarrasch/videos


Some horses respond well to a handler getting tough with them but some can go in directly the opposite direction and over react to the extent that they could put a less experienced handler (or even an experienced one) in a very dangerous situation. 
I'm always very nervous of suggesting someone get 'tough' with a horse when I have never seen the horse myself and also never seen the person that owns the horse.


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## Acadianartist

jaydee said:


> Look through Shawna's YT videos as there might be something in there that could help - she'll also answer questions you might have about using clicker for various things
> https://www.youtube.com/user/shawnakarrasch/videos
> 
> 
> Some horses respond well to a handler getting tough with them but some can go in directly the opposite direction and over react to the extent that they could put a less experienced handler (or even an experienced one) in a very dangerous situation.
> I'm always very nervous of suggesting someone get 'tough' with a horse when I have never seen the horse myself and also never seen the person that owns the horse.


Thanks jaydee, will have a look at the video.

I guess it depends on what "getting tough" means to different people. I don't think Kodak, or any horse, should ever "win" and get away from working. I think you have to be persistent and never let up when they are misbehaving. But I don't think a horse like Kodak would do well in a situation where a handler got physical with her, or tried to have a "come-to-Jesus" moment with her, as I've heard other people say. In fact, I suspect that's exactly the kind of training methods that were used with her before that have made her a neurotic mess. When she got here, she was literally afraid of her own shadow. Which makes me think more and more that they drugged her when we tried her out. She reacts best to calm, patient handling, but I try never to coddle her or be overcautious to the point of tiptoeing around her. It's a fine line and I don't pretend to have the answers, but we were making good progress on the head shyness and spookiness until this morning when she just seemed like a different horse. I just need to be really consistent and work with her every day to make sure she doesn't revert to her old behaviors again.


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## Acadianartist

Watched a couple of videos and I really like this woman's approach. I also like the idea of target training along with the clicker training. I like how target training is something easy to teach a horse so that you can reintroduce it to build confidence anytime you're doing something more challenging. Will see if I can integrate those into working with Kodak. Thanks!


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## jaydee

I've never tried target training but it was something that Punkstank did with her horse and it seemed to work very well
I've found that Lou really wants to please, she's a very gentle horse despite the way she appeared to be when she first came here and would go into 'attack mode' the moment she felt threatened she's never shown any sign of wanting to bite or kick or be bad tempered as long as she's being treated fairly and given time to understand exactly what's expected of her. With 5 horses to do and being on my own when DH is away on business I can't allow for 'diva' behavior so she does have to behave herself - its just how you achieve it that makes the difference in how they react


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## Acadianartist

Well, you'll be happy to hear we had a great first clicker training session! The goal was just to get Kodak to associate the click with getting a treat. I watched a couple of the videos jaydee posted and noticed the lady was rewarding the horse for turning its head away from her. With Kodak, I decide to change this to turning her head towards me since she's so headshy and hard to catch so I WANT her to pay attention to me. She is also not a grabby horse, in fact, it took her time to learn to pick the treats out of our hands when we first got her. I don't think she'd ever had treats hand-fed to her, and when she gets really nervous, she clenches her jaw and won't open her mouth. So just taking a treat from me is something we worked hard for when she first came to us. She is the most dainty horse when she does it - takes it with the very tip of her lips. 

We started by taking Harley out of the equation and putting him in his stall (he got a turn next). She just stood in front of his stall wanting to be near him. So I stood a couple of feet away from her and waited for her to turn her head towards me (and away from Harley's stall). As soon as she did, I clicked and gave her a treat. She started a bit at the clicking noise, but took the treat happily. We did that about 3 more times until she started to like the clicking noise. 

I started to walk away from Harley's stall and called her name. She immediately came so I clicked and rewarded. I was able to lead her around the pasture (no lead rope, obviously) in a serpentine pattern easily. She picked it up so fast, it was great. So I led her back to the barn and in her stall. She didn't want to come in and instead, stood at Harley's stall. I went in and waited. It only took a minute or two before she came to look in, changed her mind and went back to Harley, but then decided to come in her stall. I clicked, treated, and fed her. Then my daughter had a go with Harley. He caught on fast, but was a bit too mouthy and aggressive when following her around. We will need to set different goals with him. 

Will do a couple more sessions before introducing the target, but she did really well. When she figures out how to do something, she loves it and it makes her confident and happy. I think it might help her just to have something easy to focus on when she's stressed. 

We will keep working at it. I spent a lot of time with her today, but feel we've made progress. I put the halter on her a few more times too, without her pulling back or panicking (though she's clearly not comfortable, approaching what the author of the videos calls her "threshold", but not going over it). The whole clicker training session was also done with the halter on, though I never touched her head.


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## Smilie

Sorry, by tough love, which I just adopted the term for, being harsh was not the intended message, but rather treating her like you would any horse. The more you tip toe around a horse, treat it with kit gloves, afraid it might blow, the more reactive they become
That si why, after the first few saddlings of a colt, you throw that saddle up, like you would on a broke horse, versus carefully putting that off stirrup down
Why is it though that there is no middle ground, far as being too lax to man handling a horse?? Nether extreme creates a good trusting horse
Perhaps she was drugged, when you tried her, and why, if you have any reason to sispect that, you have blood drawn at the time of purchase for a drug screen
Don't need to run it, but just store it, just in case you ever wish to rule out that possibility
Horses, will though, test new handlers
I find it hard to believe that a horse who worked cattle, ran games, trail rode, is truly that afraid of her own shadow, but then, I am not seeing the behavior of that horse
We sold full sister to Smilie once, that my son had going very well, winning at shows, riidng out well, ect
A few weeks later, we get a call, asking what we did when she reared! she never did it ever


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## Woodhaven

Acadian, on a positive note, sometimes when you have a set back, and they do happen, it is always easier to gain ground back to where you started from before the set back.
Glad to hear the clicker training seens to help. Whatever works to gain your goal it good.


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## Acadianartist

I hear you Smilie. If I had had any reason to suspect she might have been drugged, I would have run a blood test. Sadly, I didn't. It's not something that's usually done around here. But my trainer actually even brought it up. We all feel something happened to this horse. Maybe it was fine with cattle and everything else at some point, but it suffered a trauma of some sort. Maybe one of the owners that had her along the line beat her within an inch of her life. She has this huge welt on her face that's still visible and may never go away. The skin has healed a bit more since we've had her, but the bump in the bone is still quite visible. This tells me it happened not that long ago. Or maybe she scared herself somehow, by slamming her head into something in a confined space like a trailer (she was trailered across the country). Everyone who has worked with her, including my riding coach and our trainer as well as lots of horsey people who have met her say the same thing. This horse has been traumatized. But she wasn't like that when we tried her. One of the explanations offered by the trainer is that when she was at the last place, they were working hard with her everyday and flooded her (the lady in the videos jaydee sent talks about this) to the point where she just tuned everything out and submitted. When she got here, she was so scared she wouldn't unclench her jaw. She actually did spook at her own shadow the first time I rode her. 

Anyway, my only hope is that she can unlearn and lose this fear, at least enough to be a safe and pleasant horse to ride. Once under saddle and on a trail, she does relax a little more so that's promising. She does not like confined spaces. Would much prefer to stay outdoors - and this is probably reflective of the fact that out west, a lot of people don't ever bring their horses in, but also maybe where something bad happened to scare her. She has a touch of claustrophobia. 

I figure I can use the clicker training to encourage her to put her head down for the halter. It didn't take her long to go from fearing the clicking noise to flipping her ears forward in expectation every time she heard it. If nothing else, it's an easy ground work exercise we can do to help her focus on something. 

I hear what you're saying about "tough love" Smilie, and I try to just ignore her panic attacks, but won't go as far as throwing the saddle on her or something equivalent. Right now, she is still in a state of apprehension. We don't want setbacks. Little things like throwing the reins over her head still have to be done slowly and deliberately. If I just throw them over her head like I would with Harley, she loses it again. Remember, she was ridden western so they would have just wrapped the reins around her neck rather than thrown them over her head. She is getting better with it, but I still let her know what I'm doing before I do it. But I stop short at undoing the reins so I don't have to throw them over her head because I feel it's something she needs to accept - and she does.


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## Acadianartist

Woodhaven said:


> Acadian, on a positive note, sometimes when you have a set back, and they do happen, it is always easier to gain ground back to where you started from before the set back.
> Glad to hear the clicker training seens to help. Whatever works to gain your goal it good.


Thanks Woodhaven! Yes, we are seeing quick progress with her after working with her several times yesterday. She's just the kind of horse that doesn't do well if not handled for a few days.


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## Smilie

HI Acadian

Sorry, I did not want to come across as abrupt, but my post last night was hurried, as once again we had another severe weather warning storm moving in, with heavy rain, hail and possible tornado. 
I thus went out, deciding the best place to put the three horses I have in the two corrals, Smilie full time, and Charlie and Carmen part time
Can't turn Smilie out ot the pasture, because of her IR, and while her corral, which she shares with Charlie, has a shelter, Carmen's does not.
There is also a line of trees behind those corrals, where we have cut down the largest, but I still fear some of the rest in a strong wind.
I thus banked on no tornado, and put all three in the barn, then stayed awake, listening to the storm
We got lucky, and all went well!
Thus, I laud your wilingness to help this horse, because as you most likely know, a traumatized horse will never completely have a clean slate for a mind, and can revert at times, given the right trigger
You also have to work with the horse you now have.It is possible that she was ever stalled, as some of our horses we just trail ride, have never been stalled for more then an hour or so, tied up waiting for the farrier, ect
I just meant, handle her in a confident manner, expecting her to accept things, versus like a reactive horse, and not man handling her.
Tie her up solid for a few hours each day, in a safe place, and by herself
While I don't use clicker training, I can see application, working with a horse that has truly been abused or traumatized.
Since I trained mainly the horses we raised, or ones we bought as yearlings or weanlings, I knew they did not have 'baggage', thus never saw application of clicker training and treats. Your case is different, and if it gets you results, then go for it!
\\i did buy one horse off the track, that came with baggage. Annie must have had some bad experiences in the starting gate, ect. If you just took hold of her lead shank, and walked forward, she would rear up and go over backwards. She halter pulled, badly,each and every time you tied her. At that time, I had yet to,learn about using a body rope
When ridden, she spent a lot of time spooking and spinning around.If another horse passed her at speed, she was back in race mode
I was young then though, and did get her riding okay, enough to take her on mountain rides, got her over halter pulling for the most part, but she was never ahorse you could relax on, and truly trust, esp if the going got tough.
I did raise some very nice colts and fillies off of her, who were easy to train and very sensible under saddle, so I know she had a good mind that was messed up
What I am trying to say, is that Annie herself never became a horse I would ever have put my kids on, but they did ride her offspring.
Kodiak might become the horse you thought you bought, but also stay realistic that perhaps she will never be that horse. Good luck!


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## Acadianartist

I understand Smilie, and am glad your horses are safe! 

I do understand that Kodak might never be totally safe, though my daughter did a trail ride on her the other day as I rode Harley in front and she was fine. She doesn't bite, rear, kick or try to buck people off. She just spooks explosively, though now we've gotten that to just a start so I think there is improvement, but I agree, with the right trigger, she could easily revert like she did yesterday with the head-shyness.

I thought of the possibility of breeding her, because deep down, I think there's a great horse in there, but would worry that she would pass off her spookiness to her offspring. And of course I am not a breeder, or a trainer, or experienced enough to raise young horses. So I'd have to get the help of a trainer and that would be a huge investment. Someone else might add her to their breeding program though... but while I don't think this horse will ever be 100% reliable, her pulling back and spooks are not so dangerous that they would put my daughter at risk. I would not put a beginner on her though, and that's what I was hoping for. That's also what I was sold on by the former owners who claimed she was 100% bombproof and beginner-safe. 

We'll just keep plugging away at it for now. My trainer keeps saying that if we can work through this, she will be a very loyal, devoted horse. She does try awfully hard, but when she is a fearful state, isn't thinking anymore and doesn't process but reacts. You can see it in her bulging eyes and terrified stance. Totally different from when she is relaxed. When she relaxes, she is ok and can learn. When she is terrified, she isn't in a state of mind where learning can happen.

Will try solid-tying her to a tree by herself once in a while. Somehow though, I don't think that will be such a problem. Once I have a lead on her, if I'm just leading her around, she's fine. Getting the halter on is the issue, and then putting her on cross-ties or even tying her inside the barn makes her uncomfortable.


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## Bondre

I'm pleased to hear you're giving the clicker training a go. Like Jaydee I've found it to be useful for a scared and reactive horse. To start with you obviously start with something simple, as you have done with Kodak, rather than wading in the deep end trying to fix her problem directly, and I think this very indirect approach is eaier for the horse to assimilate. First you spend time teaching her to do easy things with the clicker until they get the idea, and then you can teach her targeting as it is a useful skill, but also not directly related to her head shy nervous problem. This positive interaction helps develop your relationship together before you start trying to work on more delicate issues that will be harder for her. 

I also found the fact that clicker training enables very specific communication helped me to clarify my own training goals. You need to decide exactly what you are going to reward the horse for in each session, so no fuzzy thinking is possible! You need to break down your desired behaviour into a series of achievable steps, four example working on her being head shy you first reward her for not moving her head away when you raise your hand, then when you touch her forehead - or ears, then for taking the halter off or putting it in, and so on. In clicker talk it's called making a shaping plan, i.e. a plan for how to shape a desirable behaviour, but it's just really common sense. However, I found it very helpful to think of modifying behaviour in tiny steps which avoids any problems due to lack of clarity on the trainer's part. However, it sounds as if you know exactly how to go about shaping behaviour from your experience with your dogs. 

I'm looking forward to hearing about your continuing clicker work with her. I really respect what you're trying to do with Kodak, especially considering that you wanted a beginner's horse and had absolutely no plans for working on a project like she has turned out to be. But I can see that you and your daughter are both doing your ****edest to do well by Kodak - hats off to you both!


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## Smilie

Also interested to know how it goes.
Have you thought of having a good ranch hand ride her, and evaluate her, and she if indeed she really is that spooky
If you can do that, without even telling him she has those issues, just that you want her evaluated, it would be extremely helpful, to know what truly you are dealing with, JMO


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## Acadianartist

Smilie said:


> Also interested to know how it goes.
> Have you thought of having a good ranch hand ride her, and evaluate her, and she if indeed she really is that spooky
> If you can do that, without even telling him she has those issues, just that you want her evaluated, it would be extremely helpful, to know what truly you are dealing with, JMO


I've had two certified instructors ride her. She is the same for everyone, right down to her tendency to launch into a canter when you ask her to trot. Obviously they are better riders than me and can achieve better results, but she does all the same things so it's not just me. She also spooked for my trimmer, who is a very experienced horse person, and my neighbor, who has had horses her whole life (and is in her 60s) and has a very no-nonsense approach to horses. 

When my daughter's riding instructor rode her, she asked me how old she was and was surprised she was 10. Said she felt very green and thought that was odd.

That said, we are continuing to make progress. She spooks less, though she isn't really relaxed in the paddock. I was able to keep her trotting without launching into a canter yesterday. We are continuing to put the halter on her several times a day and she is cooperating much more now that she realizes she has to do it before getting fed. She still tends to put her head up, but it's better.


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## avjudge

Acadianartist said:


> We are continuing to put the halter on her several times a day and she is cooperating much more now that she realizes she has to do it before getting fed.


My sister did this for her mare who was headshy when she got her. She keeps her out with a run-in, so for the first year she haltered both horses and tied each to an exterior corner of the shed for every feeding. That, plus a calm environment & consistent handling, made a world of difference. 

Anne


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## Acadianartist

avjudge said:


> My sister did this for her mare who was headshy when she got her. She keeps her out with a run-in, so for the first year she haltered both horses and tied each to an exterior corner of the shed for every feeding. That, plus a calm environment & consistent handling, made a world of difference.
> 
> Anne


It's a bit of a pain, but it sure does work. My daughter was even able to get her halter on yesterday and she didn't pull up her head at all. That was huge progress.


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## Acadianartist

My daughter's riding instructor is having a horse camp in two weeks and asked if I wanted to send Harley and Kodak to camp along with my daughter. I considered it - Kodak would be getting handled and ridden every day - but decided against it. The move might just make her anxiety levels go right back up and we are doing really well lately. And I'd still have to pay to have both horses trailered an hour away on top of paying a small fortune for the camp. If I thought it would help Kodak I might consider it, but it's a big gamble for a horse that doesn't cope well with change.


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## carshon

I agree with your decision to keep her at home. I know others disagree but I think a horse that has been moved a lot tends to become more insecure- when going "away to camp" she doesn't know she is coming back. Maybe in a year she could go. 

You are making progress - and as frustrating as it is you may find that you have the horse of your dreams at the end. The old saying "If its worth having its worth working for"

I think Kodak is a sensitive horse that just needs to settle in. I know I have mentioned it in other posts here but we have 2 new horses at our home - and my mare is still jumpy -she will go hide in her run in shed. I don't ride her much at home but when we go to do trails she shies at every little thing (bunnies on the trail are really scary you know!) and I was told when I purchased her that she was an extremely seasoned trail horse. I see that she an become that but I know that I am not riding a seasoned trail horse. She moves away from the saddle pad and saddle, cannot be fly sprayed near her head or chest - it is getting better but one step forward 2 steps back kind of thing. Our other new horse has been here 2 months and settled right in- to the point that sometimes I have to wake her up when I walk in to feed her in the morning.

You have got this!


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## Smilie

Acadianartist said:


> My daughter's riding instructor is having a horse camp in two weeks and asked if I wanted to send Harley and Kodak to camp along with my daughter. I considered it - Kodak would be getting handled and ridden every day - but decided against it. The move might just make her anxiety levels go right back up and we are doing really well lately. And I'd still have to pay to have both horses trailered an hour away on top of paying a small fortune for the camp. If I thought it would help Kodak I might consider it, but it's a big gamble for a horse that doesn't cope well with change.


You made the right choice. The last thing Kodiak needs, is to have riders of various skills ride her and handle her!
Sure, she will get lots of regular work, but not the right kind, JMO. All horses learn on those trail rides, is to get their confidence from other horses, and you can wind up with even worse issues
I mean, this horse must have been ridden regularity at some point, so should have some of that training 'hidden', even if there was some poor riding/handling in between, or some of those videos must really have been edited, or you have a different horse!
Glad you are using the haltering to get fed method
Far as your trimmer, I don't know why she uses cross ties, nor walks under them in front of the horse, esp one that has offered to set back before
Yes, farrier labs use cross ties, simply as that is how those labs are set up, to allow a bunch of students to work on a number of horses, but any farrier I have ever used, just single ties a horse. There is also the fact, that horses should never be cross tied, if they are not first 100% on tying solid
I just suggested a good horse hand, one who is used to using a horse for a living, to get an input as to how solid this horse ever was as a working horse
If this horse was run in games, used to rope cattle, she mostly likley is conditioned to accelerate fast, esp if she was ever used in a roping box
Therefore slow upward transitions might well be 'green'for her
Too bad you do not have her complete history, as that initial video shows a horse with a descent start, ready to go on
That old cowboy, with the annoying leg bumping, still shows a quiet horse, and I don't see a spooky horse, but of course, videos can be edited.
Where did you try her out? Did you arrive with her already haltered and tied up? If so, bad sign!
I always got any horse \i had for sale, out of the pasture, when the buyer got there. They could then see how the horse was, being haltered, and also see that I had not ridden the horse down first
Also, when you buy ahorse, you have to try them out in intended use. Thus, for instance, you don't just try that horse in an arena, if you want a trail horse, but ride him out, by himself
What about the selleR ? Did he ride the horse first-at all gaits?? SHOULD HAVE. iF SO , how did she respond to leg aids, how were her transitions, ect
I'm not saying those certified trainers can't evaluate her, but at the same time, I have seen some certified trainers that I would never send a horse to, for training, as there really is no good evaluation of that piece of paper
Not saying they aren't correct, but something here just does not add up.
When you tried the horse, did you have some pro go with you, to evaluate that this horse indeed was a beginner horse????


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## jaydee

My farrier insists on using cross ties so it was something we had to get used to and our UK horses get used too - though none of them ever worried about them and neither do Jazzy or K because they were both used to them from the get go in previous homes. Lou was anxious about them but only had one panic attack (she'll stand tied to a single point all day if you let her and she ground ties) but I have Velcro breakaway points on the cross ties and they gave way immediately she pulled back - once she was free she just stood and did nothing - I also have quick snap release clips at the 'tie' points so even if the Velcro didn't release a horse could soon be removed from them


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## Acadianartist

My cross-ties are the quick release kind jaydee, but oddly, she never pulls hard enough to break free. And Smilie, she does settle fairly quickly and just stops pulling, so I do consider her pretty solid for tying, it's just that cross-ties appear to be totally new to her so I use them carefully for now. I'm still putting her in them because like jaydee, my farrier expects the horse to be in cross-ties. Sure, if I asked her to, she'd trim out in the paddock with the horse tied to a tree, but I feel that would be giving in to Kodak. I had her on cross-ties yesterday, brushed her, saddled her and bridled her (slowly) without a problem. So she can do it, it's just not her favorite place. 

And as far as getting a "ranch hand" who makes a living working horses, that's not a "thing" in New Brunswick. No one does that here. We do have lots of lesson barns, trainers, coaches and lots of Western riders (barrel racers, etc.). Cattle penning is done at some Western shows I think, but that's about the extent of it. There aren't really big ranches here. As far as how she went from how she looked in the videos to how she seems now, if I had the answer to that question, I wouldn't be at such a loss as to how to explain her behavior. As I've said before, all those who have ridden her and been around her agree that she's either been abused or traumatized (could be accidental). Something happened somewhere along the way to mess with her head. Sometimes she's pretty good and seems quite calm, but she also has her crazy moments. My goal is to reduce them to almost zero. 

And to answer your questions, when we went to see her, we tried her twice on two different days. Both my daughter and I rode her, both in an arena setting and on a trail ride for an hour and a half. The seller rode her first and went through all the gaits, seemingly without problems. My daughter and I both found she wasn't responding to our cues very well, but the seller explained that it's because we're used to riding English, which seemed like a plausible explanation. We were still able to get her to walk and trot and do a little cantering, but it wasn't very smooth and her steering wasn't very precise. Still, given that I was just looking for a trail horse, I figured we didn't have to look perfect. 

No, we didn't have our coach with us at the time. This horse was 3 hours away (6 hours round trip) and we looked at about a dozen horses over a few weeks, many being hours away. I couldn't exactly monopolize my coach's time and take her to see every single one. So I sent her the videos and she thought the horse was dead broke. I also sent them to a good friend of ours who runs a Western lesson stable and he said the same thing. Basically, he said this horse was totally bombproof. Of course, in retrospect, I wish I had gone to see the horse one last time and brought someone along, but hindsight's 20/20. 

And yes, the horse was already haltered when we got there. They did tell us she wasn't an easy horse to catch. They described her as aloof and a horse that tries to get out of working. She isn't aloof at all - she loves affection, but she has serious anxiety issues. Once she relaxes, she will come up to me and nuzzle me for attention. She LOVES the clicker training, because it's easy and she clearly likes doing a good job when she understands exactly what that job is. 

I have no way of knowing whether they tired the horse out before we rode or whether they drugged her. The seller has basically stopped responding to my emails. Her first response was that Kodak was being like this because we put an English saddle on her. I've put a Western saddle on her too, btw - it didn't change anything. I do think that if we can find a saddle that fits her better, she might improve her trot. I'm still working on that. All the saddles we try (tried another new one yesterday) sit on her shoulder and back, but bridge behind the shoulder. So every time her shoulder moves, it bumps the saddle. My equine massage therapist is also coming this Thursday and will be able to tell me if she has any sore spots or issues with her back. 

I do realize you are trying to help Smilie, and I really appreciate it. You're right in saying I should have brought someone with me to look at her, but at the time, it seemed unnecessary. I will do things differently next time I buy a horse - trust me. In the meantime, I and my daughter are learning a lot about horse training, desensitizing and are spending a lot of time with a horse that seems to have suffered some kind of trauma at the hands of humans so we can teach her to trust again. It's not the easy road I was hoping for, but as carshon put it above, it will hopefully all be worth it in the end.


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## Smilie

jaydee said:


> My farrier insists on using cross ties so it was something we had to get used to and our UK horses get used too - though none of them ever worried about them and neither do Jazzy or K because they were both used to them from the get go in previous homes. Lou was anxious about them but only had one panic attack (she'll stand tied to a single point all day if you let her and she ground ties) but I have Velcro breakaway points on the cross ties and they gave way immediately she pulled back - once she was free she just stood and did nothing - I also have quick snap release clips at the 'tie' points so even if the Velcro didn't release a horse could soon be removed from them


\ Yes, I have taken our horse sin tot he local college farrier lab, where they stood in cross ties, fore ages, by the way, as it took a long time for those students to do the job, esp with a noon break, then inspection, often pulling a shoe again, ect. No problem, as they are 100% on tying-period.
My point was, Kodiak is not, thus should perhaps not be cross tied until she is
If you use break away, might as well ground tie, JMO, although I do believe in that being the only safe way to cross tie, along with being ther


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## Smilie

I agree that neither the saddle or riding English versus western, should be a problem, far as basic riding
I always rode my all around horses western first, then had no problem riding them English, as my cues for the gaits are the same. I do, though, ride English with perhaps lighter contact then most open English horses are ridden with, plus my cavasson is on just tight enough, not to look sloppy
My hubbys trail horse , Frankie, never had an English saddle on him, until my niece from Ontario came out, and wanted to go on a trail ride. Since she rode English down east, she asked to ride him using my English saddle and my english bridle.No problem, and we had a great trail ride
I don't buy that excuse.
On the other hand, I did post about a horse that I had shown western, in cattle events, games and western riding, plus trail rode. We sold him to a Mom, looking for a 'well broke horse', which he was.
Her son was taking lessons in an English barn.
We got a phone call, as it seemed the horse was suddenly swapping directions on the rail, plus they instructor could not even get that horse going correctly
Went out to see what was going on. My son watched them ride first, and they were cuing him accidentally for aroll back, plus they were using way, way, more bit contact then he was used to, thus making the horse uptight,as he was taught that when he gave, the rider would do likewse1
My son got on him, using that English saddle and bridle, and the horse went beautiful, as always. The mother exclaimed that it was the best she had seen the horse go, since buying him, so, certificate alone, can mean not much!
We suggested they sell him to a ranch working home, which they did, and those owner declared him to be their best horse, the one they chose when they had to bring a difficult cow in!
Not saying this is the case here, but just that there might be other issues, besides possible abuse.
I know that we have had some horses, never, ever abused in their life, that went through a stupid stage, far as being hard to catch, and mostly from that one halter bred stallion that we had, and who I had gelded after two foal crops, even though he himself had won under saddle-providing you worked him hard and regular!


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## Acadianartist

I do agree that as far as her following cues, it's a communication issue. Therefore, we should be able to get where we want to go eventually, once we get on the same page. I stopped trying to take lessons with my daughter's English coach on Kodak because I didn't feel her approach was working. My background is actually in Western riding - I'm new to English - so I ride with a very loose rein. I'm riding her with the trainer who worked on desensitizing her. She also rides with a loose rein and does both English and Western. She would never encourage me to pull on Kodak's mouth. 

However, I don't think that the way I am riding her is causing her to spook explosively at things that she should be used to. Her head-shyness is also very odd. She panics sometimes and gets clearly worked up. Eyes bulging, snorting, teeth clenched... all at things that are completely harmless. These are the things that make us think she suffered a trauma of some sort. Not how well she responds to my cues. 

Also, I do agree with you that she is the type of horse who does much better when worked regularly. When I took a few days off because I had a non-horsey house guest and we took Harley to a horse show, she quickly slid back into her spooky ways. However, within a day, I brought her back. It just means I can't take a lot of time off with her. I will be doing more clicker training with her tonight and rider her again tomorrow. 

Finally, there are some things that are different here that may contribute to her anxiety. I don't think she spent much time indoors as the sellers kept her outside 24/7 with a herd. When we tried her out, we did a trail ride (one she may have done many times before so she knew it) with four other horses. I think she's used to living in a herd. Even just having Harley with us on trails helps her, but it's not the same as being in a group. She was used to wide open spaces, but here, she has a barn and a stall and our trails are all wooded. She doesn't like being confined - will stand outside in a hail storm rather than come in - and doesn't like doing arena work. The "arena" we tried her in when we bought her had no fence or rails. It was just an open field where they had brought in sand and set up a few cones. The paddock we do our lessons in seems to make her uncomfortable and there are specific spots that make her nervous every time she goes near them. Maybe these things didn't show up before because she was never in a setting like this, but it seems to me that a seasoned horse should be able to deal with those things.


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## Smilie

You re right, a seasoned horse should be able to ride in an arena, just like a well broke horse should ride out, and not just in an arena
Obviously, going back to the first video you posted, she was ridden in an arena, when first started by that girl
Don't get me wrong, a well broke western horse should also accept contact, when it is used, and wait for release, afterall, they all have to be started using contact, while driving with legs, as required,plus when you school, you do at times need to use quite strong contact, while driving with legs, BUT, when that horse softens, you give greater rein release then you would English
As I was once told, by a good western trainer, you can hold with as much as it takes, while driving with legs, until that horse softens, just never jerk on that horse, or you soon will have a jerk for a horse" !
I just don;t want you to think that you can never take hold of Kodiak, always riding with a loose rein, as when she roots with her head,versus giving, you sure .
As for the spookiness, I wish you could have watched some of Steve Rother or Tracy Westfall. On a spooky horse in particular, you want to flood that horse with noise and motion, until that horse just thinks 'no big deal
Trying her out with other horses , on a familiar trail, will tell you not much! In fact, you can ride a pretty green horse out that way, with that horse just happily going along. The proof in the ;pudding'., is, if you rode her away from that group, made her take a different route, or rode her out alone
Be suspicious if the test trail ride automatically has other horses coming along!
I.ve seen plenty of horses that came off a Dude string, where anyone could ride them on that organized trail ride, going through and over everything, following the horse ahead, but try and ride that horse out alone, and you soon know how truly broke that horse is!
Here is anotherlittle story that might shed some light. 
At one riding stable, there was ahorse that spooked badly, whenever traffic came up on it, so that the stable owner always asked riding experience of the person riding that horse, and warned them of this problem
One time, he had to go to town, thus his assistant got the ride or the day organized, and the owner forgot to tell him to warn the rider of that horse, concerning spooking and traffic
The owner drove home, worried about what he would discover. He was happy to see all riders looking fine, and then asked the rider of the problem horse, how badly he spooked with traffic
The puzzled rider, answered, he did not spook at all, and was great with traffic.
Not saying it applies to Kodiak, but it shows how sensitive horses can be, to very slight body language. The rider did not know of the problem, thus did not tense when traffic came up, and the horse in turn, stayed relaxed


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## Acadianartist

I totally understand what you're saying Smilie, but when Kodak had her first bad spooks with me, I wasn't tense at all because I was expecting the beginner-safe bombproof horse I was promised and had seen. So while it's fair to say I am tense on her now (I'm working on this by slowing down my breathing and other stuff), I wasn't to start out with but she still spooked. The instructors who rode her are used to riding difficult horses, but she was still the same for them - they were just more able to stay on than me! 

While I respect your opinion Smilie, I do not think flooding Kodak until she submits is the answer. I know there is a school of thought along those lines, especially among Western riders, but there is also a different school of thought about how this just causes the horse to get overwhelmed and shut down. I also think different methods work on different horses. I realize you have far more experience than me, but I also have to consider the opinions of other horse people and make a decision as to which training philosophy suits me and my horse. I will not overwhelm Kodak, but rather teach her that she can trust me and that good things come from me. She wants to work and do the right thing so she is trainable. As Shawna Karrasch puts it, the idea of flooding a horse until it just zones out is like taking someone with arachnaphobia and throwing them in a pit of spiders. It's not the approach I want to take with Kodak.


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## Woodhaven

This is just a thought and may be completely off base as it is to do with cattle but my husband once had a load of cattle come in from the west and they were the spookiest, wildest bunch of cattle he had ever had, everything sent them into a spooking frenzy.
A neighbour said, if you can get them confined in the barn and then put a radio in there fairly loud and he did this and in a few days they settled right down and were much better around the barn and even out on pasture.

I'm not saying keep Kodak confined but maybe try leaving a radio on all the time in the barn and see if that might help. Who knows, what works is good. There will be noise and something going on whenever she does come in her stall and when you are in the barn.


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## Smilie

Perhaps flooding was the wrong word, as it seems to mean to some people that you restrain a horse, then throw everything at them, as in Imprinting a foal, and that is not what I meant
I just meant, if she is broke enough, then expose her to stuff, Take her where there is noise and spooky objects and just calmly work her, using that body control you have achieved and ride her through stuff, until she relaxes and becomes less reactive, Once that happens, step off and quit for the day
If she was roped off, thus had a rope swung off of her, at least at one time, she must have been comfortable with random movement above her, including over her head
Has she been 'rewarded' for spooking? Some horses do learn to use spooking to try an get out of work, by intimidating the rider
Certainly use what works for your horse, taking advise posted here, that works for you.None of us here are seeing the horse, how she now behaves (maybe an un dated video would be helpful), and are just trying to read between the lines, watching those videos in which she looks like a sensible horse exposed to many things, and to the horse she now appears to be, with abuse during an unknown part of her life, being the most likly culprit
Anyway, I will post again this video by Larry trocha , on spooking, and perhaps it might be useful


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## Smilie

P guess I used the wrong word, by using flooding, as I ceratinly didn't mean to restrain the horse, and then throw everything at them, as is done in foal imprinting
I meant to get that body control on her, the take her and exposure her to stuff, like noise and random motion, riding her through stuff, then when she relaxes, end on agood note
It is also true that some horses learn to use spooking to get out of work
There are segaments missing in the life of this hrose, where all we can do is guess, with abuse being the most likley cause, that created the horse you now have, which doe snot match those videos you posted
At one time, she must have had a rope swung off of her, so her reactiveness , concerning her head, doe snot match that fact
Certainly use whatever advise posted here, that works for you, as none of us are seeing the horse you now have. Could you maybe post a video of how she now rides?
At any rate, I will psot these two Vidoes by Larry trocha again, about spooking, and maybe they will help.
All that desensitizing has a some postive factors, but in the end, what Larry shows, is what works for me, as many horses can be de spooked to a tarp on the ground, but then if that horse sees a tarp over the end of a forestry road bridge, as we have on logging roads, it will be an entirely new thing, and that horse will spook


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## jaydee

I think that making too big a deal of anything that she does wrong is going to have a negative impact on her because it's putting too much focus on things that worry her.
That's why 'flooding' horses is a bad idea. 
Gradually exposing her to things as part of a general schooling session is different because there's a bigger picture going on of things that she doesn't worry about so she isn't constantly feeling as if she's under pressure or getting it wrong
It's so much better with a horse like Kodak especially to always try to make the right thing easy and to avoid setting the horse up to fail, even if it takes that bit longer the foundation you're building on with be a lot stronger
I've had a lot to do with dealers over the years and I would imagine that the video and photos they put up were 'staged' and that she was 'doped' to keep her quiet - would explain why he needed to be constantly legging her on since you're finding that she's actually rather too forward at times


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## Acadianartist

Ok, I see what you mean Smilie about exposing her to things. Yes, I am already doing that. 

I think it's also important to point out that I am having two separate issues with Kodak. One is the spooking and head shyness and the other is the difficulty in getting her to trot. I watched the videos and found them very interesting. Of the different types of spooks he speaks of, Kodak is the "take off like a rocket" spooker. There is no warning - she just reacts and does so quickly. We are now at a point where those spooks are almost gone and even if there is a spook, it's less intense and I can ride it through and get control of her. While I don't think I'm a great rider, I don't yank on her mouth, grab the horn or lean on her neck the way he talks about. I have had her just disappear from under me. She kind of drops down and takes off sideways and I'm on the ground. But her last spooks weren't as bad and so I sit back and slowly pull her to a halt and turn her back around (she usually goes away from the spooky thing) and we walk past it. The trainer working with her has also taught us a one-rein stop, ie, giving the head laterally, as a way to stop her when she gets out of control. She does dislike one side of the paddock more so I now feed her there as often as I can. 

The head-shyness may or may not be related to the spookiness. But it's even more than head-shyness because she will even startle at being touched on the shoulder sometimes. She is very fearful of being approached nose-first, but I can touch her all over once she is in a calm state. This is something else I'm addressing with frequent haltering/unhaltering and a lot of handling.

Right now, we're working towards getting her to trot. She continues to canter when I ask for a trot. I believe I already described the problem in previous posts so I won't expand again, but my approach to that problem is just to work with her as much as possible and not quit until she gives me a trot all the way around the paddock both ways. I rode her this morning and she did it again, but after cantering around the paddock a couple of times, I made her do smaller circles until she slowed to a trot, then let her trot wide. She still wants to accelerate at the trot, but right now, as long as she doesn't break into a canter, I'm letting her have a loose rein with a gentle reminder to slow down when she is getting close to cantering. I did that on both sides. Maybe if I just keep at it she will finally understand that I'm asking her to trot, not canter. I'm at a loss as to what else to do about this specific issue. I'm certainly willing to take the blame as a rider, but why does she start to trot, then immediately canter when I am no longer pushing her on? I am very careful to ask for the trot gently by squeezing my legs and lifting the reins forward. She starts to trot, then canters. I do not keep the pressure on with my legs. I feel she just really wants to go! I bet she'd be a great barrel racer, but that's not what I want to do with her.


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## Acadianartist

jaydee said:


> I think that making too big a deal of anything that she does wrong is going to have a negative impact on her because it's putting too much focus on things that worry her.
> That's why 'flooding' horses is a bad idea.
> Gradually exposing her to things as part of a general schooling session is different because there's a bigger picture going on of things that she doesn't worry about so she isn't constantly feeling as if she's under pressure or getting it wrong
> It's so much better with a horse like Kodak especially to always try to make the right thing easy and to avoid setting the horse up to fail, even if it takes that bit longer the foundation you're building on with be a lot stronger
> I've had a lot to do with dealers over the years and I would imagine that the video and photos they put up were 'staged' and that she was 'doped' to keep her quiet - would explain why he needed to be constantly legging her on since you're finding that she's actually rather too forward at times


Yes, I wonder how they managed to do all that with her and have her so quiet. The photo where she appears to be working cattle is really just a photo of a cow tied to her horn. Could easily have been staged. I have no way of knowing whether or not anyone has ever swung a lasso over her head.


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## natisha

Acadianartist said:


> Ok, I see what you mean Smilie about exposing her to things. Yes, I am already doing that.
> 
> I think it's also important to point out that I am having two separate issues with Kodak. One is the spooking and head shyness and the other is the difficulty in getting her to trot. I watched the videos and found them very interesting. Of the different types of spooks he speaks of, Kodak is the "take off like a rocket" spooker. There is no warning - she just reacts and does so quickly. We are now at a point where those spooks are almost gone and even if there is a spook, it's less intense and I can ride it through and get control of her. While I don't think I'm a great rider, I don't yank on her mouth, grab the horn or lean on her neck the way he talks about. I have had her just disappear from under me. She kind of drops down and takes off sideways and I'm on the ground. But her last spooks weren't as bad and so I sit back and slowly pull her to a halt and turn her back around (she usually goes away from the spooky thing) and we walk past it. The trainer working with her has also taught us a one-rein stop, ie, giving the head laterally, as a way to stop her when she gets out of control. She does dislike one side of the paddock more so I now feed her there as often as I can.
> 
> The head-shyness may or may not be related to the spookiness. But it's even more than head-shyness because she will even startle at being touched on the shoulder sometimes. She is very fearful of being approached nose-first, but I can touch her all over once she is in a calm state. This is something else I'm addressing with frequent haltering/unhaltering and a lot of handling.
> 
> Right now, we're working towards getting her to trot. She continues to canter when I ask for a trot. I believe I already described the problem in previous posts so I won't expand again, but my approach to that problem is just to work with her as much as possible and not quit until she gives me a trot all the way around the paddock both ways. I rode her this morning and she did it again, but after cantering around the paddock a couple of times, I made her do smaller circles until she slowed to a trot, then let her trot wide. She still wants to accelerate at the trot, but right now, as long as she doesn't break into a canter, I'm letting her have a loose rein with a gentle reminder to slow down when she is getting close to cantering. I did that on both sides. Maybe if I just keep at it she will finally understand that I'm asking her to trot, not canter. I'm at a loss as to what else to do about this specific issue. I'm certainly willing to take the blame as a rider, but why does she start to trot, then immediately canter when I am no longer pushing her on? I am very careful to ask for the trot gently by squeezing my legs and lifting the reins forward. She starts to trot, then canters. I do not keep the pressure on with my legs. I feel she just really wants to go! I bet she'd be a great barrel racer, but that's not what I want to do with her.


Are you posting or sitting the trot?


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## Zexious

Why not have one of your trainers put 30 days on her and see what you end up with? I can't help but feel that you keep having set backs, and that maybe fixing these issues is a little out of your league.

**Please know that I say this with nothing but respect. We have surely all encountered a problem that was too much for us to handle on our own.


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## Acadianartist

natisha said:


> Are you posting or sitting the trot?


Have tried both. Find she is better when I post. But she is still doing it. Maybe if I start posting at the walk???


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## Acadianartist

Zexious said:


> Why not have one of your trainers put 30 days on her and see what you end up with? I can't help but feel that you keep having set backs, and that maybe fixing these issues is a little out of your league.
> 
> **Please know that I say this with nothing but respect. We have surely all encountered a problem that was too much for us to handle on our own.


It's ok Zexious  I have never pretended for a second that I am a great rider or a horse trainer. However, I have a trainer working with us. I'd rather have the trainer come to me so I can be involved. Also because Harley is miserable without company. But I can't say I haven't considered it... it's just that Kodak is so sensitive and I'd like her to keep forming a bond with me rather than someone else.


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## Acadianartist

Will see if I can get a video, but it's hard because I am usually the one riding her and there's already enough going on without me trying to hold a camera while I'm on her. Maybe I can get my daughter to come out and do a video.


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## Smilie

jaydee said:


> I think that making too big a deal of anything that she does wrong is going to have a negative impact on her because it's putting too much focus on things that worry her.
> That's why 'flooding' horses is a bad idea.
> Gradually exposing her to things as part of a general schooling session is different because there's a bigger picture going on of things that she doesn't worry about so she isn't constantly feeling as if she's under pressure or getting it wrong
> It's so much better with a horse like Kodak especially to always try to make the right thing easy and to avoid setting the horse up to fail, even if it takes that bit longer the foundation you're building on with be a lot stronger
> I've had a lot to do with dealers over the years and I would imagine that the video and photos they put up were 'staged' and that she was 'doped' to keep her quiet - would explain why he needed to be constantly legging her on since you're finding that she's actually rather too forward at times


I thought that video was from before she ever hit the dealer scene, and the blank days of her life.
Is that the person you brought her from, Acadian?
Far as dealers=avoid them. They are in the business of flipping horses, and have a routine, to make a horse look good
See it all the time at local all breed horse sales.
Their very business depends on turning a horse over quickly, for a profit
They have no breeding program at stake, and those in the industry, get a chuckle, watching them go through their routine. Unfortunately, often novice horse owners buy those horses impressed as to what they see in that ring
Here is a usual routine by one
Ride horse, doing quick turns on the fence, twirl a rope off of that horse, letting the end fall around a back leg. Next, off comes the bridle , with horse ridden around with just reins around neck. Next, saddle comes off, and horse is ridden bareback, with the rider sliding off the back end, and crawling under the belly of the horse
If there is time, one of his kids is thrown on the horse to ride
Sure, there might be clause to take the horse back, but, usually in exchange for another horse, and some more money!
When people used to tell me they could buy a well broke horse for half the price or less, I was asking, at the Innisfail Auction Mart, I told them to go ahead, and they might get lucky!


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## Smilie

Far as the cantering, when asked to trot, I would stop her as soon as she canters without being asked to, or how else is she going to know that it is wrong for her to decide to go to the next gait?
Is she obedient to gaits while being lunged?If you need to lunge her first, to get her to focus and listen, then do so, but make it a learning experience
I expect a horse to neither break gait, nor to pick up a gait, un asked
Far as that end of the arena, work her hard away from it, and let her relax near it
Hubby had a trail horse, by that halter stud I mentioned. He was an okay trail horse, but would spook by the same rock on the trail, coming and going back to camp. After a day or so, I told hubby enough was enough, and to make spooking at the same place time and time again,, have some consequences. Horses can become habitual spookers. Not saying that is your case, but while drugging and possible abuse seem like the logical explanation, there is no proof of that, unfortunately, and you have to work with the horse you now have
When she picks up the lope unasked, stop her, back her hard with legs. Let her think about it a minute, then ask her to trot again, and do the right thing, which is not taking charge, and a horse that changes gaits unasked, IS taking charge
I agree on sending her to a trainer for awhile, but being picky as to who you use
Working her ina circle is also good, and don't ride on the rial, until she is correct in that circle, making it a reward, and aplace you don't have to school her. If she goes back to cantering unasked, on the rail, take her back off of it and work in those circles to school


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## Acadianartist

Smilie said:


> I thought that video was from before she ever hit the dealer scene, and the blank days of her life.
> Is that the person you brought her from, Acadian?
> Far as dealers=avoid them. They are in the business of flipping horses, and have a routine, to make a horse look good
> See it all the time at local all breed horse sales.
> Their very business depends on turning a horse over quickly, for a profit
> They have no breeding program at stake, and those in the industry, get a chuckle, watching them go through their routine. Unfortunately, often novice horse owners buy those horses impressed as to what they see in that ring
> Here is a usual routine by one
> Ride horse, doing quick turns on the fence, twirl a rope off of that horse, letting the end fall around a back leg. Next, off comes the bridle , with horse ridden around with just reins around neck. Next, saddle comes off, and horse is ridden bareback, with the rider sliding off the back end, and crawling under the belly of the horse
> If there is time, one of his kids is thrown on the horse to ride
> Sure, there might be clause to take the horse back, but, usually in exchange for another horse, and some more money!
> When people used to tell me they could buy a well broke horse for half the price or less, I was asking, at the Innisfail Auction Mart, I told them to go ahead, and they might get lucky!


Yeah, I'm pretty sure these people have a pattern of doing this. But you know what, the horse world is pretty small here, and I'm not shy about telling everyone who sold me this horse. The owner of a big lesson barn was telling me the other day that he was going out to look at two horses. When he mentioned the same sellers, I told him they're the ones who sold me Kodak. As a result, he went to see the other horse and bought it instead. What bothers me most, other than the fact that they lied, is that they are now washing their hands of the problem. If they truly cared about the horse and their customers, they would try to help me. I asked about a buy-back or a trial but they said no. 

To answer your question, the video in the arena is an older one by one of her owners out west. The ones done with the guy bumping his legs on her all the time are by the people who sold her to me.


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## Acadianartist

Thanks for the suggestion on dealing with the cantering issue Smilie. I will try stopping and backing her up, then asking for the trot again. I have been just pulling her back with my reins to try to slow her from the canter to the trot or doing circles until she finds it easier to trot, but she fights with me when I pull back and that's pretty unpleasant. I also wonder if this is a saddle fit issue. All the saddles sit on her shoulder. I've tried five different ones and tried padding, but still have the same issue. Still looking for the right saddle, but she definitely doesn't look comfortable at the trot, however, I can't tell if she just doesn't want to trot or is truly uncomfortable. The trainer does a better job getting her to trot, but she still wants to canter. Also have my equine massage therapist coming to assess her back and help me find a saddle (she also does saddle fitting).


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## Smilie

Yes , saddle needs to be clear of her shoulder blades
Good luck, you are doing very well, and looking into everything to help this horse


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## jaydee

I tried a beautiful 'black' QH when we first came here that a dealer was advertising, I was really excited about him because he was so pretty, sweet natured and moved very well on the videos they had on the site but when I rode him I couldn't get him to move at anything more than snails pace, the owner gave me a whip which didn't work and then he hit him with his short crop so hard it broke it and the horse still didn't move. I went home. A few years later I was telling my farrier's apprentice about it and he said that a friend of his used to work there and sometime they just give them too much dope and it zones them right out.
I've had plenty of private sellers try to pass off unsound and dangerous horses though. Buying a horse is just hard.


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## Acadianartist

That's horrible jaydee... and yes, buying a horse is hard. You may recall I had a private seller take me on a 3 hour trail ride on a horse she was trying to pass off as beginner-safe. I knew within the first few minutes that I wasn't going to buy him because he was quite spooky. Halfway through the ride, she turns to me (on her endurance horse ahead of me) and says "I haven't been quite honest with you, he's really only green broke." Although, to be honest, I don't think he would have been any worse than Kodak... probably better.


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## Smilie

jaydee said:


> I tried a beautiful 'black' QH when we first came here that a dealer was advertising, I was really excited about him because he was so pretty, sweet natured and moved very well on the videos they had on the site but when I rode him I couldn't get him to move at anything more than snails pace, the owner gave me a whip which didn't work and then he hit him with his short crop so hard it broke it and the horse still didn't move. I went home. A few years later I was telling my farrier's apprentice about it and he said that a friend of his used to work there and sometime they just give them too much dope and it zones them right out.
> I've had plenty of private sellers try to pass off unsound and dangerous horses though. Buying a horse is just hard.


Yes, lots of private sellers try to move a horse, advertising and representing him for something that he is not. However, most of those are a one time sort of deal, and not a breeder, that relies on a good reputation and repeat customers.
You can fool someone once, but shame on them, if you fool them again. Would you buy a second horse, from a private seller or otherwise, when the first was grossly mis represented?
The horse business is the same as any other business. those that rely on their good name, repeat customers, do their ****edest to achieve that. 
Those 'fly by night', sellers, either flippers or private owners that just want to move a horse, not concerned of future sales/reputation , will do anything to move a horse, that an Ethiopia horse person, esp someone that enjoys a good reputation in the horse industry, has repeat customers, would never do,
I was mainly at the seller end of things, rarely buying ahorse, and certainly not an older broke one. I bought young prospects and raised the rest
The fact that many of the people we sold horses to, became friends, repeat customers, kept us up dated on the horses we sold them, only happens if you represent a horse honestly, taking pride in those horses, sending them out as ambassadors, versus just moving a horse any way you can
Thus, i never meant to imply that buying privately, will keep you free from that dealer type scenario.
It is also true, that just as with anything else, you get what you pay for. Many people buy horses from these types of people, because they are bargains, but just like any other business, not standing behind that brand name, those bargains often are not such great deals as hoped. 
People really in the know in the horse business, 'usually, don;t get stung like that, and those that do, are hoping that 'cheap' horse is going to make them money, far as a re sale, so take the risk.\The rest, fall into the group defined by this post-they just get taken, becuase of the lack of inside knowledge, even paying very good money for this learning curve!


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## jaydee

That particular dealer has been in business around here for two generations, maybe because they do a four week trial with a no questions asked return policy on any horse you buy from them - of course once they have your money you don't get it back you can only have another horse. They seem to get plenty of good reviews so I suppose they must sell some good horses. 
I know many UK dealers that are exactly the same and also still in business, one of them now into their third generation.


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## Acadianartist

Yes, I'm sure there are good and bad dealers out there, just like there are good and bad private sellers. FYI Smilie, this horse was not a "bargain"! Quite the opposite. I paid 4800$ (they were asking 5500$) because I thought I was getting a very well-broke safe horse that I could put kids on. 

Also, I just got in touch with the previous owner (the person who posted the video of the horse in the arena, not the people who sold her to me). She did tend to spook although this person said her spooks weren't too bad. But I did find out why she is head shy. Apparently the guy who had her before this person wrestled her to the ground by the head. This person was aware of that and said she had "worked through" this problem and disclosed the horse's past to the people who sold her to me. Of course they chose NOT to disclose this information to me.


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## jaydee

The QH I rejected was definitely not a cheap horse as trail horses go - I think they wanted $12K for him
Its a shame that they didn't tell you what had happened to her though you might still have bought her but at a reduced price perhaps. It always helps when you're trying to fix something if you know what caused the problem in the first place


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## Bondre

Acadianartist said:


> Also, I just got in touch with the previous owner (the person who posted the video of the horse in the arena, not the people who sold her to me). She did tend to spook although this person said her spooks weren't too bad. But I did find out why she is head shy. Apparently the guy who had her before this person wrestled her to the ground by the head. This person was aware of that and said she had "worked through" this problem and disclosed the horse's past to the people who sold her to me. Of course they chose NOT to disclose this information to me.


This is just sickening. Poor Kodak has quite a history. I'd say the more you can blacken the seller's name the better, since the more you discover about Kodak the clearer it becomes that they lied, misrepresented and presumably also drugged her in order to make the sale.


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## Acadianartist

Bondre said:


> This is just sickening. Poor Kodak has quite a history. I'd say the more you can blacken the seller's name the better, since the more you discover about Kodak the clearer it becomes that they lied, misrepresented and presumably also drugged her in order to make the sale.


It breaks my heart Bondre... because if the guy wrestled her to the ground by the head, what else did he do to her? Also found out how much this kind person sold her for... price was reduced because of her history and issues. The folks who sold her to me made a very tidy profit by lying about her and yes, likely drugging her. I'm trying to find an alternate explanation about why she was so quiet when we tried her, but am at a loss. I don't recall her even being head shy, but I never asked to see her haltered (my mistake). I did see her bridled though! But I could see they were going very slow with her. For all I know, they spent hours bridling and unbridling her before I got there and tiring her out to the point where she was exhausted. 

So yes, I will not be shy about telling people who sold her to me and what they did. That means my trainer, instructor, lesson barn, etc. 

As much as I feel cheated and lied to, I'm also reassured that it's not all me, that what I was observing was real. But also, I'm very reassured about the fact that this person I've been talking to (the one who posted the video of riding bridle-less in the arena) was kind and gentle and actually put some solid training in her. She said she has worked through the head shyness and that Kodak's spooks had been reduced to little spooks in place. This tells me that with enough time, Kodak can come around with us. She's learned not to trust people, but has trusted SOME people in the past. So she can learn to trust us. I'm trying to focus on the positive here!


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## Acadianartist

Here's the pretty girl after a bath yesterday. How could anyone be rough with this horse? I wasn't able to wash her face, but sponged it a bit with a damp sponge. She still pulled away, but I was able to do most of her face. Baby steps.


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## carshon

You have made more progress with her than I have my new horse. She will not tolerate anything that looks like a rag or sponge near her face or ears! And I have worked quite a lot with her. I have resorted to spraying her ears when mounted and using a citronella noseband on her bridle. 

It is hard to see the light at the end of the tunnel but I do believe that this will make your bond with her stronger and she will trust you in time


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## egrogan

@carshon- do tell about your citronella noseband! That sounds brilliant.


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## Acadianartist

carshon said:


> You have made more progress with her than I have my new horse. She will not tolerate anything that looks like a rag or sponge near her face or ears! And I have worked quite a lot with her. I have resorted to spraying her ears when mounted and using a citronella noseband on her bridle.
> 
> It is hard to see the light at the end of the tunnel but I do believe that this will make your bond with her stronger and she will trust you in time


Also intrigued by the citronella nose band! 

I am able to get fly spray on her face, but only by spraying in my hands and pretending I'm scratching her between the eyes first, then scratching behind her ears, and pretty soon I have fly spray all over her face. Except her nose, she still won't let me get near her nose.


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## jaydee

I'm sure you'll get there in time because you have the right attitude to deal with a horse like her.


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## Smilie

They make roll on fly sticks, for the face, and I like using them, instead of spraying a rag and then wiping it on-or resorting to using my hands, when no rag is along on a ride.It is much like a deodorant stick
So, how many owners has Kodiak had?
So, not the person that sold you Kodiak, but the one before, that wrestled her tot he ground, by the head.That person admited doing so?
It is almost impossible to do that, as in steer dogging, but there is a way one can pt ahorse down, taking their hear away and thus there balance, but physically wrestle a horse down????
I admit to putting a horse down, once. We were still raising horses, even hubby had his seasoned trail horse sold, and had to move on to a new one my son or I had started
"moose; was an okay trail horse, the one I posted about, and who was by that foal crop by that halter stallion I gelded, but inherited mainly his sire's attitude, versus that of his dam, who was a very nice trail horse that my kids learned to ride on
Anyway, hubby never rides alone, thus after his start, Moose was never ridden out by himself again. When it was time to sell him, I decided to ride him out by himself to fill that hole
First time I asked him to leave home alone, he simply dropped to the ground, as his method of balking. Took me by surprise. He got up, and I did get him ridden out, but felt I had to cure that habit in the bud
Next day, I rode him with a snaffle, and when he dropped, I ran that outside rein behind the cantle, turning his head and neck, and he could only get up, when I let him.
That changes his mind about balking by lying down-okay when he could get up when he wanted, but not so okay to put himself in a position where he could not do so He never even offered to do so again, and sold to a couple, along with another young horse, who got back to me and told me as to what great trail horses they both were
Far as prices for trail horses, unless you are buying a working ranch gelding at one of those ranch horse sales, that horse is never priced more that $4,000 tops, around here. Beyond that some, upper training/show experience is also expected


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## jaydee

If you can do it to cattle you can do it to a horse.


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## Acadianartist

I do know about the roll-on fly stuff Smilie, but she hates me touching her face with anything. It's just easier to spray it on my hands then give her lots of scratches while spreading it on her face.

I know it's complicated... the person who wrestled her to the ground owned her out west. She came to the next owner, a nice lady I managed to track down, who told me about how Kodak was traumatized and how she had worked through these problems, but had disclosed them to the next buyer - the one who sold her to me. So yes, the person who did this obviously told her about it. She told the next buyer who shipped her across the country and sold her as a well-broke beginner-safe horse I could put an inexperienced kid on. She is registered. That's why I was willing to pay so much for her. I was paying for training. While she could probably be shown, that wasn't a big concern to me. 

It doesn't sound like the way you put the horse down and the way this guy did it are the same.


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## carshon

The noseband is by Fly Armor (I purchased mine from Horseloverz on ebay) it velcros on and has replacable inserts. They also come in poll bands. My mare has been slow to warm up so I am choosing my battles now - fly spray on a mit on her face will come in time but she is still getting used to other things so I am willing to wait. I hope this picture copies over - it is from our ride on Sunday. You can see the black nose band that has Velcro on either end to go around your bridle. These have worked really well for me and I will continue to buy the inserts


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## Acadianartist

carshon said:


> The noseband is by Fly Armor (I purchased mine from Horseloverz on ebay) it velcros on and has replacable inserts. They also come in poll bands. My mare has been slow to warm up so I am choosing my battles now - fly spray on a mit on her face will come in time but she is still getting used to other things so I am willing to wait. I hope this picture copies over - it is from our ride on Sunday. You can see the black nose band that has Velcro on either end to go around your bridle. These have worked really well for me and I will continue to buy the inserts


Do you find it helps reduce flies around her nose or do they just not land on the nose band? Very interested in a poll version since Kodak can't stand flies and they always seem to land behind her ears. I often lean over and swat them away, but if you've been reading my posts about Kodak, you realize this is a risky endeavour!


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## jaydee

Off track I know - but I wonder if there's a way to attach something like those to a fly mask?
I think I'll try one on Jazzy for riding because she's started to go into her summer fly hysteria thing now.


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## Zexious

^You could probably attach velcro to both the fly mask and the nose band.


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## carshon

Sorry to Hi Jack the thread - I do like the nose band and it does seem to work well. Our biggest issue has been the horse and deer flies. The Citronella scent on the new insert is quite strong and the band comes in a zip lock bag so it stays fresh. For what I paid for it I have been very happy. they come in poll bands and some that will Velcro to the sides of your bridle or halter. I tried riding in a Cashel fly bonnet with ears and it gets snagged on the briars on some of the trails and just causes more frustration. So this is my go to until I can get fly spray on her ears and face.


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## Smilie

jaydee said:


> If you can do it to cattle you can do it to a horse.


UMM not many 1,000lbs + steers being thrown by the head
Ever see the size of those bull doggers, and how they use the horns to twist the head, plus those steers are 500 lbs tops
not saying one heck of a strong man could maybe do that, but most would use a rope, as is common when throwing horses, thus taking a leg away
Some also use a running w, but wrestling a horse by the head like a steer dogger, I would have to see that!


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## Smilie

https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourcei...1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=youtube bulldogging rodeo


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## jaydee

My husband used to do it regularly with the stock that were bred for beef rather than replacement milkers using Belgian Blue bulls on Holstein/Friesian Dairy cows - they were no lightweights and probably heavier than Kodak is
If whoever that person was knew the technique he'd have had no trouble bringing her down using that method


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## Smilie

So, like this, with ahorse?

Anything is possible, but only horses I have seen thrown, was just some form of ropes, to trip a horse, afterall, horses are at least halter broke, so why would you just try to grab onto their head to throw them-no horns to grab.
If you have a video of a horse being thrown by the head, nothing on that horse, I would be interested in seeing it, as I;m not saying it is not possible, but certainly something I have never seen done

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Txf3aiM2EPg


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## jaydee

Smilie - I have no reason to doubt what Acadian was told and see no reason why that previous owner would have told her it happened if it didn't so pursuing this discussion is too off track to be worth doing because it smacks of trying to call someone a liar when they aren't here to defend themselves


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## Acadianartist

Yes, while I appreciate those of you who have hung onto this thread this long, I don't think it really matters whether or not we believe the guy who said he wrestled Kodak to the ground. It doesn't change a darn thing about how I work with her, but it sure as heck explains a lot about why she is so head shy. What it also confirms is that this information was known, but was not shared with me by the people who bought this horse just to flip her for a very tidy profit by pretending she was something she wasn't. 

Back to Kodak, she got a break from riding today as we had a tornado warning here this morning and the rest of the day was unbearably hot. We did halter her a few times though, and that is continuing to improve. My daughter was even able to do it without a problem and she is a bit awkward at it being 11 and having a hard time getting her little arms up over Kodak's ears. My daughter also did some clicker training with her. We will try to ride both horses in the morning if the weather cooperates.


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## Smilie

jaydee said:


> Smilie - I have no reason to doubt what Acadian was told and see no reason why that previous owner would have told her it happened if it didn't so pursuing this discussion is too off track to be worth doing because it smacks of trying to call someone a liar when they aren't here to defend themselves


Oh for goodness, sake, Jaydee, I am not doubting that is what Acadian was told,, just wonder about the logistics, or you know, how stories vary slightly, just by verbal repetition.


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## Smilie

I do wish the Op luck with this horse, whose history, to em at least is Confusing

\girl a started horse, sold horse well started, as as a green horse, not un common to be 'a bit spooky'
Sold to person b , who abused horse? Wrong to ever do what he did, but why did he feel he had to do that in the first place=just horse too green for him????

Buyer c, then trying to undo that mistake, with another party aware of what happened, under both owners?
Somewhere in the sage, horse was gamed and worked cows?
Then, horse flipper bought horse, knowing past history, but the damage supposedly fixed by owner 3, but not giving full dis closure?
At any rate, perhaps not overly relevant, and I agree on doing what you now are, esp if getting results.
At the same time, one has to wonder about, 'the rest of the story" Why so many owners on a horse that started out with a good start?
Why did some idiot decide she needed that head wrestling in the first place?
Was everyone trying to just flip this horse, or were people finding her always to be somewhat un predictable, thus sold her?
Anyway, I hope patience and trust, gets her to being ahorse you in turn can trust and enjoy
I assume tranfers were kept up, and you do have the original horse, and not a substitute, as is not un heard of


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## greentree

Honestly, we are really better off not knowing a lot of the background on a horse. Just start at square one. This allows the horse a clean slate where it can draw its own conclusions. Some horses are born headshy. Some horses are born broke. There precious few perfect ones.

Horses are psychic, and know exactly how we feel about them, and every move they make.


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## Acadianartist

Smilie, that's not quite the order in which it happened, but it doesn't really matter does it? I think we can all agree that it doesn't change a darn thing about where we go from here. It does, however, tell me that I'm not totally insane and that there's a reason for Kodak being the way she is. Some days, she is a perfect lady. I'd like to think that's the real her and that in a few months, she'll be like that 95% of the time (everyone gets to have an off day). 

I just bought an Australian saddle. I really didn't think that's the saddle I would end up buying, but there was someone local trying to sell one who was willing to let me try it. I figured I had nothing to lose. I popped it on Kodak and lo and behold, it fits like a glove! Or, you know, pretty much. I rode it it and it's super comfortable. It's a synthetic Aussie so not heavy and the side panels are not overwhelmingly big. It just looked right on her and felt right when I rode in it so I bought it for under 400$. And as I tacked her up and hopped on her, I was telling the seller about her history and she was totally making a liar out of me. She was just lovely. Now I can't wait to go out on the trail with my new saddle and see if she'll trot better with it! 

So yes, I'm glad I now know why Kodak is head shy. It tells me something external happened to her, that she's not just a crazy mare. And therefore, we can undo it. It tells me that it's not something I'm doing and that my instincts were right - she did have a trauma (maybe several). The lady who started her really considered her green and sold her as such. The folks who flipped her over to me only had her briefly and I don't think you can cram a couple of weeks of training in a horse and truly have it finished. So I have a much greener horse than I thought. Again, I can live with that because it's something I can work on. Do I feel cheated? Hell yes. But while having this information about her past doesn't change how I work with her, it does change how I view her. Rather than be angry about ending up with a horse that is the total opposite of what I wanted, I now feel that the quiet, kind-hearted mare I could see under there is real and that she just had some bad owners along the way. 

Think about it, she went from a bad owner (the guy who wrestled her to the ground), to a good owner (the lady who did the video in the arena), to a bad owner (the folks who bought her just to flip her for a profit and possibly drugged her) to me. And that's only the stuff I know about. Is it any wonder it takes her time to decide to trust someone?


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## Acadianartist

Just updating to say I had the most lovely evening ride on Kodak! She really shines on the trail. I came very, very close to taking out my phone for a picture, but then realized it was in my fanny pack which velcroes shut. Kodak doesn't like the sound of velcro so I didn't risk it. But she was just a perfect lady. Calm the whole time, steady pace, no difference between beginning and end. She had one tiny start when she had a fly on her neck and tried to rub herself against a tree branch, which startled her. But no spook. Harley, on the other hand, got very jiggy about halfway through and my daughter was a little frustrated with him. I offered to ride him next time and she can take Kodak. 

I felt like I could ride Kodak forever and she'd be fine. The new Aussie saddle worked well too and she seems comfortable in it. I'll try to get pictures next time. But the more I ride her, especially when there isn't any pressure, the more I think she is coming around nicely. I think she just needs more time than the average horse. Trainer agrees and predicts I will see a huge change over the winter. Already, her demeanor towards me is changing. She looks at me with interest and a softness in her eye, rather than fear. She really is a lovely horse when she's not worried and anxious.


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## LoriF

I'm really glad that you had such a great ride on kodak. See, she's coming around realizing that you are not going to hurt her. I guess it's time to start ripping apart velcro all day until it's no problem.


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## Smilie

Glad things are working out, and you had a good ride
Not that it matters, but I thought the video in the arena, was with the first owner, and that she raised her.
I also had a great ride today. Weather was finally half decent. so took Carmen and Rubix out west, finally trying the 'new' truck out on those hills
Truck ran great.
Started out with rain, so nice to have a horse you can just put a slicker on, without getting off! Sun came out, later, -perfect day!
Anyway, won't hi jack the thread, and congrats on your new saddle and how Kodiak is going


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## Acadianartist

LoriF said:


> I'm really glad that you had such a great ride on kodak. See, she's coming around realizing that you are not going to hurt her. I guess it's time to start ripping apart velcro all day until it's no problem.


Haha, yup! Have already started, I just didn't want to risk it on her back. She probably would have been ok, but wasn't worth taking the chance just to take a picture.


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## Acadianartist

Smilie said:


> Glad things are working out, and you had a good ride
> Not that it matters, but I thought the video in the arena, was with the first owner, and that she raised her.
> I also had a great ride today. Weather was finally half decent. so took Carmen and Rubix out west, finally trying the 'new' truck out on those hills
> Truck ran great.
> Started out with rain, so nice to have a horse you can just put a slicker on, without getting off! Sun came out, later, -perfect day!
> Anyway, won't hi jack the thread, and congrats on your new saddle and how Kodiak is going


So glad you got out too Smilie! We also started out with pouring rain, but it cleared around supper and the weather was perfect. No bugs either! Well, until dusk or so, then the mosquitoes came out. 

And no, the woman who made the video had Kodak AFTER she was wrestled to the ground by a previous male owner. Don't know much else. She told me she knew about the incident and had worked hard on Kodak's head shyness and spooking, but sold her because she also had two other horses in training and didn't feel she had enough time for three. She still considered her green when she sold her to the guy who flipped her to me. 

I envy you going out on those mountain trails! It's time for us to start expanding our territory before hunting season starts. I know of a few areas we can explore so I plan on starting to do that.


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## Smilie

Now Kodiak's history makes more sense!
Glad she is working out for you, and that she found a good home.
We were just going to go on a 'easy ride;, along a forestry road that we has ridden before. Well, it has been re -claimed, and they sure tried to make certain no one drove up it any longer. One stretch had multi high piled dirt , and then steep drop of 8 to ten feet, with mud and water in the bottom
Hope you get to enjoy some new trails with Kodiak. Do you have to haul far?
I\'ll post some pics in the trail riding part, soon as I figure out how to do that directly off my camera card> My son did show me, when he was down with the kids, last two days, but until I do it myself, It's in one ear and out the other!


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## Acadianartist

Wow, did you do that steep drop with the horses? We're not there yet! 

We don't haul for trails. We just go from our backyard. We've groomed a bunch on our own property and the neighbors all do the same so we can go on for a bit, but not for hours. Then there are old logging roads and ATV trails (mostly old logging roads and power lines, not official trails). We also have a large woodlot that we can access from the power line, but haven't tried riding there yet. Lots of exploring yet! So many back roads around here, but the horses have to be ok with ATVs (I guess you call them quads out west). Mine are getting pretty laid back about them since I use mine around the farm so as long as some kid doesn't act like an idiot, we should be ok. Some people also ride along the trans-Canada trail, but I don't think we're supposed to.

Riding during hunting season is not usually done here, though I know it's quite common out west since lots of people do horseback hunts (my husband is looking into doing one). Around here, the hunters feel the woods are theirs during hunting season and get quite annoyed at people trying to ride so I have to pick my trails carefully. Will likely be staying close to home until late November, then heading out again to explore before the big snowfalls come.


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## Smilie

Around home, I only have the gravel road to ride down, or across fields, once the crops are off, thus to ride anywhere interesting, I have to haul
While there are areas in the mountains, preserved as wilderness, where you can only go either on a horse, or on foot, there are also lots of places we ride, that are multi use, so our horses also get exposed to quads
If we haul to an area known as Kananaskis, there are no quads allowed, but some of the trails are multi use, thus have both hikers and mountain bikes.
Mountain bikes upset horses more then quads at first, esp coming at them suddenly, and silently over the crest of a hill
One year, as we were riding along a trail in K country, and even I was puzzled as to what we saw coming towards us, let alone the horses!
Some young guys had brightly colored snow broads across the handlebars of their mountain bikes. Seems they were going to hike up high, on a mountain that still had lots of snow on it's upper slope!
Yes, hunting on horseback for elk and trophy rams is popular here, and my husband is one of those trophy hunters. I have gone on lots of hunting trips with him, esp in the past, when'roughing it', was not so hard on my body!


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## Whinnie

Acadian, sorry I am so far behind, bad week, so I am catching up on this thread. You have done awesome(ly) with Kodak! You have only had her three months and look at all you have done and how you have progressed! Even with an easy horse, it can take 9 to 12 months for rider and horse to adjust to each other and horse to adjust to new home. I think next June, on your one year anniversary, you will be very satisfied with Kodak and your journey will have taught you so much!


I am glad you got an Australian saddle. I know they are heavy, but extremely secure.


Kodak may only trust certain people her life, but I know your family will be those people!. Congratulations!


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## Acadianartist

Thanks for your kind and encouraging words Whinnie! I really do appreciate it. 

My Aussie is a synthetic, therefore much lighter. I can lift it with one arm, which is good enough for me. I'm still trying it with different pads to figure out what works best. Any thoughts? It fits her so well, I am reluctant to add too much. Was also told the flocking could be adjusted to her if necessary, and given the name of a local guy who can do it. This is the closest I'll get to a custom saddle at a cheap price so I'm pretty excited! I did have to ditch the girth it came with - too long. Too bad, it was a nice, felt-lined girth. But I have a gel girth that came with a dressage saddle that's perfect for it.


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## Whinnie

I would just adjust the flocking if needed. Since horses can gain and lose weight which may affect fit, I wonder if the saddler who adjusts it would have an idea of how to make it fit at her heaviest and if a good pad could be used if she loses weight. I am careful to keep my mare at a steady weight as I had an issue last year with her being WAY too fat for her saddle and had to ask the BM to cut her feed back. I have to really watch her and have her feeding adjusted every so often depending on weather and how much I am riding.


How many times have you ridden in it? Was your great ride the first time you used it on the trail? I am so excited for you! When I got my Aussie, I was the ONLY one in my area of Western trail riders and cowboys who had one. I went on an all day ride with a few friends one day and was the only person who was not hurting at the end of the ride (very steep trails). The laughing at the saddle by my friends stopped that day (this was 30 years ago, they are much more accepted now).


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## Acadianartist

Whinnie said:


> I would just adjust the flocking if needed. Since horses can gain and lose weight which may affect fit, I wonder if the saddler who adjusts it would have an idea of how to make it fit at her heaviest and if a good pad could be used if she loses weight. I am careful to keep my mare at a steady weight as I had an issue last year with her being WAY too fat for her saddle and had to ask the BM to cut her feed back. I have to really watch her and have her feeding adjusted every so often depending on weather and how much I am riding.
> 
> 
> How many times have you ridden in it? Was your great ride the first time you used it on the trail? I am so excited for you! When I got my Aussie, I was the ONLY one in my area of Western trail riders and cowboys who had one. I went on an all day ride with a few friends one day and was the only person who was not hurting at the end of the ride (very steep trails). The laughing at the saddle by my friends stopped that day (this was 30 years ago, they are much more accepted now).


Thanks for your suggestions. Yes, the wonderful trail ride I had on her last night was with the Aussie! It was the first time I rode on a trail with it. It's different, for sure, but I just care about comfort. And while I don't always like the look of Aussies, I really like this one! It looks a bit Spanish to me. Comfortable and light, but seems well-built. Most importantly, it fits her weird shoulder! I think it looks quite nice on her, but yes, I'm sure people will react to it. Don't really care.  

Will try to get a pic asap... may not be for a few days though, because we have guests coming (any minute now actually), then will be going away for a night.


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## Smilie

The Aussie saddle is really an adoption between a good western working saddle and an English saddle, used for ranch work. Of, course, Aussies are more prone to using that stock whip, while cowboys in America use a rope-thus the modification, not needing a horn
I played with getting one for awhile, but my balance ride saddle works very well, so why change?
I have ridden countless mountain rides with it, on very steep trails, going on Bighorn Sheep hunts with hubby,, putting in full days of riding, for a week, and never got sore, nor sored a horse
i also rode many, many horses with that saddle, over the last 30 years or more
I don not believe a saddle needs to be custom fitted, as afterall, no one who ride a a number of horses, or starts many horses, custom fits a saddle to each horse, and unless you keep that horse in the exact same shape and weight, year in and year out, the idea of custom fit is very redundant.
Thus, I have a saddle that fits the general conformation of the horses I ride, well made, along with a good pad, like an AirRIde
If you get sore in a western saddle, it is most likley because you are riding in a cheap saddle, or an old fashioned one, with all that bulk under your legs, versus a modern performance saddle that allows both close contact, and adjustment of your legs as needed
Just had to throw that in, even though I certainly agree on using a saddle that works for you and your horse, as all too often western saddles are put down by people that have never riiden ina truly good one.
For instance, I bought my balance ride saddle some 35 years ago, for $1,500 at that time, which to me, was alot. That saddle owes me nothing, having ridden and trained too numerous number of horses with it, over the years, to have kept track, and ridden countless long mountain miles with it. It will out live me!
If I had to replace it today, from VIc Bennett, who made it, I would be looking at $7,500, easy!


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## Whinnie

I didn't see where anyone was putting down western saddles. Having a preference for one thing is not criticizing another thing.


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## Smilie

Whinnie said:


> I didn't see where anyone was putting down western saddles. Having a preference for one thing is not criticizing another thing.


Not saying criticizing specifically, although the idea one can't have close contact , riding in a western saddle, that the horn interferes, has been brought up here
I did say each person should use the saddle that works best for them, same idea as the bittless versus bit controversy, and to this base choice on what works for you.
My point was also, that I do ride 8 hours or more in rough country,in a western saddle and do not get sore, as per one previous post
It is also true that many recreational riders have never ridden in a good quality western performance saddle, thus base their choice on that fact
The right tack is what works for you and your horse, in the job they are asked to do. Perfectly agree with that


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## Whinnie

I would guess that most recreational riders don't have "$7,500" to spend on a saddle no matter what style.


By the way, I don't like western saddles because the fenders are too long for my short legs and I can never get the stirrup short enough. I would have to have them cut down and there goes the resale value. I have always been more comfortable in an English or Aussie saddle as the seats seem to be more narrow and kinder to my short legs and narrow spread. And the stirrup or iron leathers are much more adjustable. Just sayin'.


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## Smilie

Whinnie said:


> I would guess that most recreational riders don't have "$7,500" to spend on a saddle no matter what style.
> 
> 
> By the way, I don't like western saddles because the fenders are too long for my short legs and I can never get the stirrup short enough. I would have to have them cut down and there goes the resale value. I have always been more comfortable in an English or Aussie saddle as the seats seem to be more narrow and kinder to my short legs and narrow spread. And the stirrup or iron leathers are much more adjustable. Just sayin'.


So, for you a western saddle does not work, so logical to use what does.
By the way, I bought that saddle 30 some years ago, for $1,500, and could not replace if I even wanted to.
My other trail riding saddle that I had to buy for Carmen, who is built different then any other of my horses, is a Billy Cook. I bought it 2 years ago for 1,700, which by the way, is as much as I paid for my used Stubbin, and that saddle certainly, also proved that name brand matters. Before that I rode in an all purpose Griffin English saddle, and the difference was also day and night.


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## carshon

Your post about your trail ride may be smile! What a wonderful post and your insight into how you view Kodak is so refreshing. So many people are not willing to give the benefit of the doubt to the horse. As for the saddle- who cares what you ride in as long as it feels good for both of you! And $400 is a steal.


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## jaydee

The difference between a leather Stubben saddle and a synthetic Thorowgood Griffin saddle is only what you'd expect - they're sort of an opposite ends of a ladder!!!


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## Acadianartist

Had a visit from the equine massage therapist today, which was another piece in the puzzle that is Kodak. She found a lot of scar tissue in several places in the neck (she made me feel one ball of scar tissue that has hard as a rock about halfway down her mane), fluid behind one poll which she massaged out, and a very, very kinked, stiff back and hind end. Kodak was very good for all of it as she is learning that human touch can be pleasant. The massage therapist feels Kodak has had a trauma, possibly went up and backwards and/or had a rope pulled hard on her neck. It could also be something that happened while trailering, but the therapist felt she had had some very rough handling in her life, to the point where it caused some damage. The stiffness in her neck makes it hard for her to collect and may explain why her neck sticks out when she trots. The stiff back and hind end may also make it harder for her to trot. We have exercises to do every day to improve her flexibility and range of motion and the massage therapist will come back in a month. 

I also had a really nice bonding moment with Kodak in the paddock last night. I was mucking out the manure out there and she walked over to me while Harley ate hay in his stall. She seemed to want attention so I started scratching her face, neck, belly and ended up giving her full-body scratches and rubs on both sides of her body. She was so relaxed her head was hanging low and she was yawning, LOL. I took advantage of her relaxed state to touch her head all over... behind the ears, IN the ears, forehead, cheeks, eyes, everywhere. She even leaned her head into my chest at one point - something she's just started doing now that she's beginning to trust me. It doesn't sound like much, but for a horse like her, it's huge to trust someone around her head like that. So she's coming along... we just need to get her riding better. 

Unfortunately, there was so much scar tissue to massage out that we ran out of time to try her new saddle on so the massage therapist could tell me if it fits (she also works as a saddle fitter). I'll keep using it for now and she'll check it next time. The therapist also wanted to stop before pushing Kodak beyond what she can handle right now so that she doesn't have a bad association with being rubbed and massaged. 

So that's where we are at the moment. Maybe with everyone working together to help Kodak be the best horse she can be, we will see positive results soon!


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## carshon

Another happy post from you. I love that you are sticking with her and helping her. Your rewards are coming!


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## Smilie

jaydee said:


> The difference between a leather Stubben saddle and a synthetic Thorowgood Griffin saddle is only what you'd expect - they're sort of an opposite ends of a ladder!!!


Agree, and the same goes for quality western saddle, an a synthetic cheap one.
Not saying everyone has to ride in what pros in either industry ride with, but use what works for you, just that there is a difference , far as getting what you pay for
Because English is only a secondary discipline for me, and I don't even ride English that often,esp after loosing my all around horses, Like Einstein, to death, and Smilie laid up with complications of founder, I made do with the Griffin saddle, but certainly felt the difference when I finally bought that Stubbin!


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## Acadianartist

I agree with you Smilie - a good saddle costs money and is a great investment. However, I am out a lot of money from just having built a barn, bought two horses and bought my hay for the year, so my saddle budget is pretty low right now. The 400$ Aussie may get replaced in time, but for now, at least it fits Kodak better than any of the other saddles I tried and puts me in a secure seat.

That said, I do look forward to the day when I can buy a great saddle!


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## Whinnie

I wonder if your equine massage therapist can show you a couple of places on Kodak you can work on between her visits. I know you are not supposed to massage every day (at least on people), but maybe every third day if you worked on a couple of spots it would hurry things along and help the therapist.


Any being with muscle loves massage. My dogs have always loved it, even better than treats.


I am very happy things are getting better.


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## jaydee

I was so pleased to read about her latest progress, the problems the massage person found are a concern for you but at least you know about them now and can do something to help
Our working saddles get a lot of punishment and not a lot of tlc I'm afraid so I like to look for bargains, good used saddles that just need some reflocking or a store that's having a clearance sale make me feel a lot better when I'm stuffing them in the back of the truck after a trail ride!!!


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## Smilie

Well, mine go on my saddle rack in the horse trailer
I agree that a good used saddle is superior to any equal price poorly made new saddle.
Glad you found a good saddle that works for you, Acadian!
I guess I have a big confession to make. I have never has an equine massage person work on a horse for me, or even a chiro. Not saying they are not useful, but I also use an equine vet first, and then if he would recommend either, use 
them
I have yet to find either one of the former, ever not find something off with a horse, having watched them work at some barns, and knowing friends that have taken horses to them
However, if it helps you with Kodiak, then that is what works for you
Have you had an equine vet look at her, who specializes in performance horses???
Call me skeptical, but I know a youth, that showed on our App circuit,when she became an adult, take a short course, and then be a massage therapist


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## Acadianartist

Smilie said:


> Well, mine go on my saddle rack in the horse trailer
> I agree that a good used saddle is superior to any equal price poorly made new saddle.
> Glad you found a good saddle that works for you, Acadian!
> I guess I have a big confession to make. I have never has an equine massage person work on a horse for me, or even a chiro. Not saying they are not useful, but I also use an equine vet first, and then if he would recommend either, use
> them
> I have yet to find either one of the former, ever not find something off with a horse, having watched them work at some barns, and knowing friends that have taken horses to them
> However, if it helps you with Kodiak, then that is what works for you
> Have you had an equine vet look at her, who specializes in performance horses???
> Call me skeptical, but I know a youth, that showed on our App circuit,when she became an adult, take a short course, and then be a massage therapist


Our vets around here are provincial vets through the Dept. of agriculture, not equine vets. I hear there are some in PEI, but the cost of bringing them over to look at a horse like Kodak, who is not in immediate danger or suffering for a rare or debilitating illness, is prohibitive. You may be in horse country Smilie, but I am not, therefore, do not have access to the same services. The massage therapist comes with very good references (including one from my vet who thinks she does great work) and has travelled the world to train and work on top horses. I'm just lucky she happens to live here part of the year.


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## Acadianartist

Whinnie said:


> I wonder if your equine massage therapist can show you a couple of places on Kodak you can work on between her visits. I know you are not supposed to massage every day (at least on people), but maybe every third day if you worked on a couple of spots it would hurry things along and help the therapist.
> 
> 
> Any being with muscle loves massage. My dogs have always loved it, even better than treats.
> 
> 
> I am very happy things are getting better.


She did give me exercises to do with Kodak to help her improve her range of motion.


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## Smilie

Well, let me know how it goes!


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## jaydee

The lady who does equine massage/physio on my horses was referred to me by my equine vet, she works locally and also travels from CT to various locations like Florida where a lot of the competition people migrate too for the winter season
She quite often finds nothing wrong with a horse that I've asked her to look at which helps me because I can then go in other directions to solve a problem
What is really helpful is that she's able to pick up on quite small 'ouches' and point them out to me so I can do something about them before they become a bigger issue - quite often its as simple as changing a schooling routine. She can also draw blood and get it sent off for analysis if she suspects that a problem is caused by something like Lyme or a mineral or vitamin deficiency/overload


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## Acadianartist

That's really interesting jaydee. My equine massage therapist also spends part of the winter in Florida to work on horses there. 

I agree, it's helpful to me when she can detect problematic areas so I can work through issues and keep it in mind in our training routine. The vets I've had out here have never been as perceptive of sore areas as she is.


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## Acadianartist

Had another GREAT ride on Kodak tonight! I finally got her to do a relaxed, smooth trot! I know, that doesn't sound like a big deal, but the last few times I tried to trot with her, she would launch into a canter. She did start by cantering a few strides - like she needs to get the kinks out - but I turned her into a tight circle and would pull back and release, pull back, release, until she dropped into the trot, then let her have lots of rein. We did a bunch of larger circles at the trot and she never broke stride once! After a few circles, she was nice and relaxed and we found a nice rhythm. Did the same the other way, which is her bad side, so she cantered a little more on that side, but then trotted perfectly around and around. I honestly feel like she could have trotted like that forever. It was easy and relaxed, I was able to sit the trot the whole time. 

I know that's not a huge milestone for most people, but I was smiling from ear to ear after we were done! I ended on a high note and gave her tons of praise. I know she felt good about it too. It was the first time I'd felt like we really connected. She was responding to me and not fighting me, her neck wasn't so stiff and upright and she wasn't tossing her head. I don't know if it's the new saddle, the massage, better communication or a combination of all those things, but she was like a different horse. She had one spook, if you can call it that, at a car on the road, but it was really just kind of a couple of sideways strides. I didn't even get nervous about it, it was that mellow. 

I know very few of you have followed this thread to the end, especially given the many detours it has taken, but to those who did, I want to say that your encouragement kept me going when I felt discouraged. We still have a long way to go, but tonight I saw a glimmer of the horse Kodak can be and I feel like we are going to have a long and amazing journey together. I don't mean to be sappy, but I am so relieved and excited about her now - I can't wait til our next ride!

Oh, and sorry, no pictures again.  Will try again tomorrow. I ride alone and want to focus on Kodak so carrying a camera with me doesn't even occur to me until it's too late to go get one.


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## egrogan

I've been following along. Retraining is outside my expertise, but I'm happy to cheer for you when you have good rides like this  I think that ear-to-ear grin is a pretty universal emotion for anyone who spends time trying to figure out a perplexing horse problem!


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## Acadianartist

Thanks egrogan - retraining is also far out of my expertise. Luckily, I have had lots of help. Some coming right from this forum!


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## jaydee

I think the fact that you've had such an open mind to all ideas throughout all of this has helped you more than anything - plus you've constantly looked for reasons (which isn't the same as excuses) for her behavior and never blamed her or punished her for anything she's done


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## Bondre

This is one of my favourite threads! I'm always pleased to see an update, especially when it's good news. Well done for your good ride, and even more so for all the consistent work you've been doing that has made that good ride possible. Now you're reaping the reward of all your groundwork, establishing a relationship of trust between you, and the massage which must have loosened up her problem areas, all of which is enabling her to give you more of herself, both emotionally and physically.

I can see you're going to get quite hooked on working with her! Nothing like the feeling of working through an issue TOGETHER for building a strong relationship with your horse.


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## Acadianartist

Bondre said:


> I can see you're going to get quite hooked on working with her! Nothing like the feeling of working through an issue TOGETHER for building a strong relationship with your horse.


It is addictive! To work consistently and patiently with a horse over several weeks (two months in our case but to be fair, the first couple of weeks I was at a loss just trying to figure out what I had gotten myself into) and to finally see results is so rewarding! I always thought people who liked taking on project horses were crazy. Why look for problems? Why wouldn't you just get a push button horse you can just hop on and not worry about anything? But now I get it. I am more and more in love with Kodak each day - to the point where Harley is starting to look boring in comparison! But don't worry, my Harley baby still has so much personality, he'll always be special to me  They're just so very different. Harley is an extrovert and wants to interact and touch everything. Kodak is an introvert and often internalizes her fears and pain. But when she comes out of her shell and begins to trust, she gives so much of herself it's amazing. I'm so very glad I took this on - bumps and bruises included.


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## Whinnie

You are wrong, it is a VERY BIG DEAL! The biggest! To feel that great after a ride is what it is all about. You are awesome! In reality, you haven't worked with her all that long and look what you have accomplished! I see great things down the road for you both.


This is why, at my advanced age, I got a barely-backed young mare to re-start my horse life. The journey, leaning to solve the issues and teach her to work for me, is so very satisfying. Especially as I have eaten dirt a few times. 


I think you had a Kodak moment! (are you old enough to have heard that before?)


Keep posting, maybe a journal? I love reading this, you inspire me.


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## Smilie

Well done!
It is a combo that has worked, so no need to analyze or take it apart You found what has worked for you and Kodiak, and that is what counts. Enjoy the ride!


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## Acadianartist

Whinnie said:


> You are wrong, it is a VERY BIG DEAL! The biggest! To feel that great after a ride is what it is all about. You are awesome! In reality, you haven't worked with her all that long and look what you have accomplished! I see great things down the road for you both.
> 
> 
> This is why, at my advanced age, I got a barely-backed young mare to re-start my horse life. The journey, leaning to solve the issues and teach her to work for me, is so very satisfying. Especially as I have eaten dirt a few times.
> 
> 
> I think you had a Kodak moment! (are you old enough to have heard that before?)
> 
> 
> Keep posting, maybe a journal? I love reading this, you inspire me.


Yes, unlike my daughter who had to google the word Kodak to realize it had something to do with photography, I remember film cameras well! I used to develop my own photos. 

I suppose I could start a journal, but it kind of feels like that's what this has become. And none of this is a reflection of my skills - I say that in all honesty. The only thing I have is a lot of determination (some stay stubbornness, but determination sounds so much nicer!) and resources to get the help I needed. Kodak will still have her moments and I may still come off her, but I can now see what was buried under all that anxiety and tension. Part of it was me getting stressed on her too. I'm not the most confident rider anymore because I'm not 15 anymore. But I'm getting better too so we're learning together. All I can say is that it is an AMAZING journey! To feel that connection finally come after all that work and to feel you're working as a team is one of the best feelings ever. I'm actually grateful that she came into my life now, because we both have a lot to teach each other.


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## Acadianartist

Smilie said:


> Well done!
> It is a combo that has worked, so no need to analyze or take it apart You found what has worked for you and Kodiak, and that is what counts. Enjoy the ride!


You're absolutely right. Sometimes it's hard to say exactly what you did that made it all click, and it doesn't matter, because the feeling of everything coming together gives enough momentum to keep the positive energy going.


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## mkmurphy81

I've still been following this thread. I love seeing every little step forward you two have made.

My journey is a few steps behind yours. We're building a house and barn now. The fence will probably take the longest, and then I can start looking for horses. Reading about your search for Harley and Kodak has opened my eyes to things to check that I wouldn't have thought of on my own. 

This past summer, my 6 year old son got to go to a local horse camp and ride a horse for the first time. My 10 year old daughter went to the same camp for three years (she has since moved on to a different overnight camp). On the last day of camp, I mentioned to the old cowboy who runs the camp that I was going to be looking for some kid-proof horses soon, and to let me know if he heard of any like his camp horses. He said he was considering getting out of the business and selling his. I don't care how old they are, what breed they are, or what price he puts on them, I'll take them!* Knowing the horses' past history is priceless.



*Ok, a little exaggeration here. PPEs and all that assumed.


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## Acadianartist

mkmurphy81 said:


> I've still been following this thread. I love seeing every little step forward you two have made.
> 
> My journey is a few steps behind yours. We're building a house and barn now. The fence will probably take the longest, and then I can start looking for horses. Reading about your search for Harley and Kodak has opened my eyes to things to check that I wouldn't have thought of on my own.
> 
> This past summer, my 6 year old son got to go to a local horse camp and ride a horse for the first time. My 10 year old daughter went to the same camp for three years (she has since moved on to a different overnight camp). On the last day of camp, I mentioned to the old cowboy who runs the camp that I was going to be looking for some kid-proof horses soon, and to let me know if he heard of any like his camp horses. He said he was considering getting out of the business and selling his. I don't care how old they are, what breed they are, or what price he puts on them, I'll take them!* Knowing the horses' past history is priceless.
> 
> 
> 
> *Ok, a little exaggeration here. PPEs and all that assumed.


Goodness, yes. If you can buy horses from someone you know and trust, do it. However, some lesson horses can also be difficult because they may have picked up bad habits from bad riders over the years. They can also be very different once they're retired from a lesson program (they get worked pretty hard in lesson programs and rarely have any energy left to act out). With those caveats, I still think you might be able to find a good kid's horse there! I would buy my daughter's lesson horse in a heartbeat! 

It's also good to put the word out early. As I'm sure you know, it can take a very long time to find a good horse! Enjoy your journey! Building a barn the way you want it is a great experience too! More expensive than buying one already built, but at least you get to build it the way you want instead of trying to patch up and make do with someone else's old barn.


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## mkmurphy81

Acadianartist said:


> Goodness, yes. If you can buy horses from someone you know and trust, do it. However, some lesson horses can also be difficult because they may have picked up bad habits from bad riders over the years. They can also be very different once they're retired from a lesson program (they get worked pretty hard in lesson programs and rarely have any energy left to act out). With those caveats, I still think you might be able to find a good kid's horse there! I would buy my daughter's lesson horse in a heartbeat!
> 
> It's also good to put the word out early. As I'm sure you know, it can take a very long time to find a good horse! Enjoy your journey! Building a barn the way you want it is a great experience too! More expensive than buying one already built, but at least you get to build it the way you want instead of trying to patch up and make do with someone else's old barn.


Also, I want to start a small lesson program. I just want to do small group lessons for some local kids a couple of days a week. Teach them the basics: a good secure seat, stop, go, left, right, and basic horse care. I have no interest in showing. If my lesson kids love riding and want to compete, I'll help them connect with a bigger lesson barn. I have plenty of experience tuning up older horses that have learned to get away with stuff, and I've spent the last 13 years teaching kids in school. I'm finally close to combining my two loves!


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## Woodhaven

Glad you had that good ride on Kodak, feels great doesn't it when you and your horse are working together like that and it will only get better as Kodak trusts you more and understands what you want. 

My sister bought a horse that was not mistreated but ridden by a young "cowboy" who did a lot of racing about, fast take offs, tie downs to keep him under control and curb bit and this horse always expected to leap off into a canter when asked to go forward and it took him a little time to figure out that these were two old ladies who just wanted to trot about with nice walks in between and in time he has settled down into a real Steady Eddy, no more anxious leaping about and trying to take off, now he goes along on a nice loose rein, on a snaffle and no more tie downs for him.
If you are consistent with her and she understands more it will get better every day.


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## Acadianartist

Woodhaven said:


> Glad you had that good ride on Kodak, feels great doesn't it when you and your horse are working together like that and it will only get better as Kodak trusts you more and understands what you want.
> 
> My sister bought a horse that was not mistreated but ridden by a young "cowboy" who did a lot of racing about, fast take offs, tie downs to keep him under control and curb bit and this horse always expected to leap off into a canter when asked to go forward and it took him a little time to figure out that these were two old ladies who just wanted to trot about with nice walks in between and in time he has settled down into a real Steady Eddy, no more anxious leaping about and trying to take off, now he goes along on a nice loose rein, on a snaffle and no more tie downs for him.
> If you are consistent with her and she understands more it will get better every day.


Thanks for sharing this! It is my suspicion that she wasn't asked to trot much. Though they had her trotting when I tried her out (???), I feel like she thinks I'm asking her to canter every time. Which is why it was so nice when it just "clicked" in her that I was just asking for a trot. But now I worry about her not knowing when I DO want to canter. I've been focusing on getting her to trot so much, I always correct her when she canters. Maybe I should do a little walk/trot/canter in each session to make the "ask" very clear. Normally I "cluck" for trot and "kiss" to ask for a canter. Should I start by lunging her to make the commands clear? Guess this is something I can ask the trainer who is coming tomorrow.


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## GMA100

I've been silently following along this thread for the past while. You are amazing!!
I had a similar situation almost 3 years ago, a mare that was "child safe" when I test rode her, became a little demon when I brought her home. 
She has a good heart and is very gentle, but I don't think she knew much, she was head shy and she spooked at the air..........fast forward to now she is my little heart pony, I can do anything with her, sure she still spooks, maybe once every other month, but how many horses don't? 
It took a lot of time, but once she started trusting me, everything "clicked" and fell into place. 
I feel sure Kodak will come around, it already sounds like she is!!!


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## GMA100

Oops it posted before I was ready, she is the little roan mare in the picture.


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## LoriF

Acadianartist said:


> Thanks for sharing this! It is my suspicion that she wasn't asked to trot much. Though they had her trotting when I tried her out (???), I feel like she thinks I'm asking her to canter every time. Which is why it was so nice when it just "clicked" in her that I was just asking for a trot. But now I worry about her not knowing when I DO want to canter. I've been focusing on getting her to trot so much, I always correct her when she canters. Maybe I should do a little walk/trot/canter in each session to make the "ask" very clear. Normally I "cluck" for trot and "kiss" to ask for a canter. Should I start by lunging her to make the commands clear? Guess this is something I can ask the trainer who is coming tomorrow.


Teaching her the cues that you want from the ground sounds like a good start. With consistency, they learn pretty quickly.


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## Woodhaven

I wouldn't worry to much about cantering right now, work on getting her trot solid and if she understands the words for trot and canter I would use them as well as physical cues. When ready to trot just say the word and then very light cues and if this works great, if it doesn't you may have to increase the physical slightly til you get what you want and gradually you will be able to use physical cues only. The important thing now is to have her trotting nicely and relaxed before moving on to cantering. Give her time to understand that there is no rush, just a nice relaxed trot and do some patterns to keep her from getting bored. Some pattern ideas, loops, serpentines, spirals in and out, diagonals, maybe ask for a lengthened trot if you think she can do it. A good exercise later is count your strides along the length of the arena and if it is 11 strides, try to lengthen slightly and do it in 10, and shorten slightly and do it in 12. Great for you and the horse, also half halts are good ( try this just before asking for something like a turn as it gives them a warning that something is coming up)

When you feel she is doing this well, then ask for a canter and see how it goes. It's good to not ask until ready as this is setting yourselves up for success.
You are doing a good job with this horse.


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## Acadianartist

Woodhaven said:


> I wouldn't worry to much about cantering right now, work on getting her trot solid and if she understands the words for trot and canter I would use them as well as physical cues. When ready to trot just say the word and then very light cues and if this works great, if it doesn't you may have to increase the physical slightly til you get what you want and gradually you will be able to use physical cues only. The important thing now is to have her trotting nicely and relaxed before moving on to cantering. Give her time to understand that there is no rush, just a nice relaxed trot and do some patterns to keep her from getting bored. Some pattern ideas, loops, serpentines, spirals in and out, diagonals, maybe ask for a lengthened trot if you think she can do it. A good exercise later is count your strides along the length of the arena and if it is 11 strides, try to lengthen slightly and do it in 10, and shorten slightly and do it in 12. Great for you and the horse, also half halts are good ( try this just before asking for something like a turn as it gives them a warning that something is coming up)
> 
> When you feel she is doing this well, then ask for a canter and see how it goes. It's good to not ask until ready as this is setting yourselves up for success.
> You are doing a good job with this horse.


Thanks Woodhaven, will follow your advice! Yes, I'd like her to do a nice, relaxed trot in patterns. She was doing very nice circles so I feel that is within reach now.


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## Woodhaven

The mare I have now had some cantering problems before I got her, one of the reasons that I was able to get her.
She was so anxious about the canter and anticipating the canter command and she would get so upset that she would buck. I rode her the first year with hardly ever asking for a canter and when she attempted to I would bring her right down at the first stride until she finally forgot about cantering and we just spent the time establishing a really good trot. During this time I did a lot more hacking out than schooling (mainly because I didn't have a good place to do much schooling)
Now we are cantering and she never gets upset when I ask for it. It took time, probably a lot more time than a trainer or a professional would take but it was time I had and we got the result I wanted in the end.
Last year I showed her in Dressage but just walk trot at first and we got so many good comments about her good forward trot, showing good impulsion, so the time spent on establishing a good trot was not wasted. The last show we did training level and did ok as she was still pretty shaky on the canter departures, but we did it.
I think with the progress you are making you will have much improvement with your mare with consistent riding and patience.


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## Whinnie

Woodhaven said:


> The mare I have now had some cantering problems before I got her, one of the reasons that I was able to get her.
> She was so anxious about the canter and anticipating the canter command and she would get so upset that she would buck. I rode her the first year with hardly ever asking for a canter and when she attempted to I would bring her right down at the first stride until she finally forgot about cantering and we just spent the time establishing a really good trot. During this time I did a lot more hacking out than schooling (mainly because I didn't have a good place to do much schooling)
> Now we are cantering and she never gets upset when I ask for it. It took time, probably a lot more time than a trainer or a professional would take but it was time I had and we got the result I wanted in the end.
> Last year I showed her in Dressage but just walk trot at first and we got so many good comments about her good forward trot, showing good impulsion, so the time spent on establishing a good trot was not wasted. The last show we did training level and did ok as she was still pretty shaky on the canter departures, but we did it.
> I think with the progress you are making you will have much improvement with your mare with consistent riding and patience.


This is absolutely a great way to train. I started with lunging for 30 days and voice commands. It was an easy transfer from voice, to voice/que to then que only. My mare responds to each of these ways. I also have taken lots of time getting each gait solid before going to the next. It pays off in the end and makes things easier.

You are doing so very well!


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## Acadianartist

Thanks Whinnie, but lunging her is challenging. Another hole in her training I'm afraid, but one I did know about. When I had the PPE done, the vet noted that they had a lot of trouble lunging her (she wanted to see her at all gaits). 

So I can either decide to forget lunging and just focus on the riding, or I can teach her to lunge. Here's what she does: after I keep repositioning myself and telling her to move forward with one hand on the lead while pushing her out from the hip, will start walking away from me in a small circle, but does not want to go out. She just goes out far enough that I can't touch her with the lunge whip. I can, however, get her to trot pretty easily (it's a little more effort than lunging Harley, who lunges perfectly, because I have to put a lot of energy into it, but she does trot and does not canter). But after a few very uneven circles, she just decides it's over and turns into me. Or she will cut into the circle which ends up all lopsided and with me trying to pick up the slack that's dragging so she doesn't step on it. When she tries to stop and turn into me, I just go at her to push her back into a trot. It works, but also makes her a little spooky. I make sure she doesn't decide when it's over and if she tries to stop on her own, I keep her going for a few more circles so I decide when she can stop. 

I'm at a loss as to what to do when she cuts into the circle, however. I don't want to be too aggressive because we worked so hard to get her NOT to be fearful of me. And as I said, she stays just far out enough that I can't touch her with the whip. I do kind of wag it in front of her shoulder and try to push her out with my body, but it doesn't seem to help much. 

So, should I lunge her or not? When I ride her, the main issue is that she goes from a walk to a canter (but I can slow her to a trot after a few strides and I'm hoping that will go away altogether in time). When I lunge her, she trots easily (so she clearly knows the cue), but doesn't understand the concept of lunging or doesn't want to be lunged so we would need to do some training just to teach her to lunge properly before I can effectively use it to differentiate cues for different gaits.


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## Smilie

I would teach her to lunge correctly.
I don't think you should be afraid of making her fearful, by correcting something in a fair manner, and where she understands as to what you are asking her to do, and then re warding the correct response.
There is a fine balance between scaring a horse, and being afraid to correct esp a sensitive horse, so the horse never really learns what is right and what is wrong
I would drive her out, when she comes in, moving towards her, and enforcing with the word,'out' When you are lunging, her space is on the end of that lunge line, staying out, but not pulling. Your space is all that area of the circle left (the inside ) Make her respect that.


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## Woodhaven

Thanks for your comments Whinnie, today, because we have had a lot of rain and everything is muddy, Sis and I rode down to a neighbours to ride in their sand ring.

Acadian, Sis's horse is the one I mentioned before, about being so spooky and wanting to take off with her when she got him. Well she hasn't been riding for about 3 wks and she just tacked up and we headed off down the road and he was so good. When we got there, there was an ATV buzzing about, bicycles, and a big dog barking and running at us so lots going on and he behaved perfectly. What a big change in this horse and I think it can be with your horse Kodak as well.

As far as my mare, she did her canter schooling just fine, stepping off into her canter and never missing a lead which she used to do a lot of.

I guess I'm doing some bragging here but I'm sure things will work out for you just like this.


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## Whinnie

I had a lot of trouble learning to lunge my mare. I didn't really know how and neither did she. She did similar things like cutting in, trying to go then opposite direction, turning toward me and stopping to name a few.

My trainer directed me and also lunged her while I watched how to do the correction. I practiced a lot. Even though I started riding after 30 days on the lunge, I lunged for a short time before every ride for several months. When she started lunging well (after months) I started just tacking up and mounting, no lunging needed.

Just last week I had to lunge again because she was disrespectful. She got over it and I just tacked up and rode the next day with no problem.

Probably one of those things to consult your trainer about.


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## Acadianartist

Smilie said:


> I would teach her to lunge correctly.
> I don't think you should be afraid of making her fearful, by correcting something in a fair manner, and where she understands as to what you are asking her to do, and then re warding the correct response.
> There is a fine balance between scaring a horse, and being afraid to correct esp a sensitive horse, so the horse never really learns what is right and what is wrong
> I would drive her out, when she comes in, moving towards her, and enforcing with the word,'out' When you are lunging, her space is on the end of that lunge line, staying out, but not pulling. Your space is all that area of the circle left (the inside ) Make her respect that.


Yes, that was my instinct Smilie. I didn't want to make her fearful, but by the same token, I didn't want her thinking she could just do what she wanted. I pushed her out with just enough energy - especially when she tried to stop and turn into me - that she wanted to run away from me, but not so much that she spooked. I'm just aware of the fact that timing is going to be important and don't want to undo our hard work or create bad habits. The difficulty was to make the circles larger since she stays just beyond my reach, but won't go further out.


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## Acadianartist

Woodhaven said:


> Thanks for your comments Whinnie, today, because we have had a lot of rain and everything is muddy, Sis and I rode down to a neighbours to ride in their sand ring.
> 
> Acadian, Sis's horse is the one I mentioned before, about being so spooky and wanting to take off with her when she got him. Well she hasn't been riding for about 3 wks and she just tacked up and we headed off down the road and he was so good. When we got there, there was an ATV buzzing about, bicycles, and a big dog barking and running at us so lots going on and he behaved perfectly. What a big change in this horse and I think it can be with your horse Kodak as well.
> 
> As far as my mare, she did her canter schooling just fine, stepping off into her canter and never missing a lead which she used to do a lot of.
> 
> I guess I'm doing some bragging here but I'm sure things will work out for you just like this.


Brag away! Those happy endings are the ones that keep us going when things are tough!


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## Acadianartist

Whinnie said:


> I had a lot of trouble learning to lunge my mare. I didn't really know how and neither did she. She did similar things like cutting in, trying to go then opposite direction, turning toward me and stopping to name a few.
> 
> My trainer directed me and also lunged her while I watched how to do the correction. I practiced a lot. Even though I started riding after 30 days on the lunge, I lunged for a short time before every ride for several months. When she started lunging well (after months) I started just tacking up and mounting, no lunging needed.
> 
> Just last week I had to lunge again because she was disrespectful. She got over it and I just tacked up and rode the next day with no problem.
> 
> Probably one of those things to consult your trainer about.


It does seem like Kodak does a lot better when I ride her AFTER doing some ground work and lunging. I'm not a believer in lunging a horse every time, but when they're still in training, it seems like a good way to reinforce cues, re- establish the relationship and build confidence in the horse. 

The trainer is coming tomorrow. Our lesson today was cancelled because of torrential rains. I will see what she thinks.


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## jaydee

I've bought so many horses that didn't know how to lunge correctly - and that's over many years so not a new thing - that its no surprise that they then don't ride as well or as responsively as they should
It's worth the effort to do it properly because it helps them in so many ways - understanding the voice commands helps them transition to body cues and the work on the lunge also helps them develop balance and self carriage if they're going to be able to move correctly in a small area they can't do it without.


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## karliejaye

When I got Chief, he was fabulous on trails, but in the arena was a mess! I tried lunging him, and he was so perplexed. It occurred to me that the woman had mentioned he was trained by being ponied. I think that is literally all they did before getting on him. It took a while and a lot of patience, but he now lunges like a dream, and has since worked in the arena much better as well. It was like one day it "clicked" that he was meant to move in a circle, concentrating on rhythm. Then everything else fell into place.


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## Acadianartist

Continuing to work on lunging in small sessions. She is getting better - at least now she's starting to understand that she's not supposed to just stop and turn to me in the middle of a circle! If she does, I energetically go after her and she keeps going. 

We also had our lesson this morning and it was a bit rough. It was windy and she was spooky again. Probably did a good half dozen or more spooks throughout the session, but they were minor - a couple of side-steps or a spook in place so I didn't have a huge issue with it. However, it also carried over into too much energy when I asked her to trot. We did trot, in both directions, but it took some work. We also worked a lot on my seat and legs today. The coach is happy with the way I'm sitting on the saddle and how it's sitting on Kodak (I still have to find a good saddle pad for it though - we were using a Western pad and it was slipping out from under the saddle), but wants me to open my hips more. I have a lot of stiffness which may be partly related to my lower back problems of late.... long story, but something that I'm going to be seeing a physiotherapist about. I find it rather interesting that both Kodak and I have stiffness in a lot of the same places - neck, shoulders and back. So when she gets a little tense because she doesn't like the shadows the leaves are making because of the wind, I get tense, she gets tenser and it escalates quickly. It's really hard to break that cycle, but I feel I managed to calm things down a few times. And at least I'm aware of it so it's something I can work on. When we were done, I was rubbing her and noticed how much stiffness there was in her neck. I could see a muscle near the base of her neck, along her mane, bulging. Will mention to the massage therapist next session.


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## carshon

Horses bodies will mirror our own. If you are stiff and expecting a spook she will stiffen and expect a spook. Kind of a catch 22. I know you are working on it and have made great progress. Don't give up!


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## Smilie

Horses, as prey species, are very, very tuned in to slight body language.
If you tense, afraid they might spook at something, they in turn will think, 'my leader also is concerned , so that object must really be something to be concerned about: They simply don't have the reasoning power to think, 'my rider is tense, afraid of my reaction'.
This is one of the hardest things all of us riders have to overcome, myself included, to try always to appear as a confident leader, esp on a horse that has a history of spooking hard!
There was an experiment done, to use confirm how well horses read our body language, Several riders were told, that when they passed a certain spot in the arena, a blank gun would be fired.
No gun was fired, but those riders expected that gun fire, tensed,to some degree, even though they tried not to, and all the horses reacted, going by that spot.
Any person, sitting nervously in the hitching ring, then having a 'bad' ride, knows exactly how their tension affects the horse. The rider, of course, is tense about preforming in front of that judge and people watching, the horse, however, only knows the rider is becoming concerned about entering that show pen,,so that place must be 'dangerous'
There are books written on helping riders over come to some degree, this problem, and maybe reading some of this info, will help
Here is just one link about that mental relaxation of the rider, to help the horse relax. There are many others

A Relaxation Toolkit: 36 Techniques to Relax the Horse & Rider


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## Acadianartist

Smilie said:


> Horses, as prey species, are very, very tuned in to slight body language.
> If you tense, afraid they might spook at something, they in turn will think, 'my leader also is concerned , so that object must really be something to be concerned about: They simply don't have the reasoning power to think, 'my rider is tense, afraid of my reaction'.
> This is one of the hardest things all of us riders have to overcome, myself included, to try always to appear as a confident leader, esp on a horse that has a history of spooking hard!
> There was an experiment done, to use confirm how well horses read our body language, Several riders were told, that when they passed a certain spot in the arena, a blank gun would be fired.
> No gun was fired, but those riders expected that gun fire, tensed,to some degree, even though they tried not to, and all the horses reacted, going by that spot.
> Any person, sitting nervously in the hitching ring, then having a 'bad' ride, knows exactly how their tension affects the horse. The rider, of course, is tense about preforming in front of that judge and people watching, the horse, however, only knows the rider is becoming concerned about entering that show pen,,so that place must be 'dangerous'
> There are books written on helping riders over come to some degree, this problem, and maybe reading some of this info, will help
> Here is just one link about that mental relaxation of the rider, to help the horse relax. There are many others
> 
> A Relaxation Toolkit: 36 Techniques to Relax the Horse & Rider


Thanks Smilie! Will give this a read! I definitely need to find a way to overcome my tension. I don't get so worked up because now I feel like I can ride out her spooks, but it's hard to relax when she's already jumpy.


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## ShirtHotTeez

I have just caught up on this thread Arcadian, I had got behind with the drama at home! 

Sooo happy to hear you are feeling happier with your progress with Kodak, sounds like you have achieved a lot in a couple of months. I haven't caught up with your other thread yet but will do so soon.

Ready for some pics here


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## jaydee

I think you'll find that the more riding that you do, the more experienced you'll become so you'll be better set up to sit whatever spooks she throws at you and when you are able to do that you'll stop worrying about her spooking so all of that tension will go away.
It's a time thing but its easy to see that you're already making a lot of progress


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## Acadianartist

I agree Jaydee. The more I ride her, the calmer we both are. Had another good ride on Kodak tonight. Well, it ended well, anyway  

I just wanted to do a nice, quiet trail ride and not worry about fighting with her so I tacked her up, walked around the paddock a couple of times, and headed out. She wasn't spooky, but she was nervous and gawky. We did trot a little on the trail until I realized there was a herd of deer up ahead just beyond the trees (I could see them through the trees). I ramped my humming up a notch so the deer would hear me and go away and asked Kodak to walk, which she did. The deer bounded away and I know she saw them because she kept looking towards where they had gone. Not spook though so I was pleased with her. But it wasn't a relaxed ride so I didn't want to end there. I decided to work her a bit in the paddock. 

I asked her to trot in the paddock and she cantered again. And again. And again. When I pulled back and put her in tight circles, she would kind of hesitate, then switch gears to a really slow canter, LOL. I could see her trying so hard to do the right thing... So I just decided to stop fighting it and let her canter. So what if she won't trot? Not like we're going to any shows. She cantered all the way around the paddock once, twice, three or four times, then started getting tired and wanting to slow down. I made her canter all the way around one more time, then asked her to walk, which she did. Then I asked her to trot again, and guess what, she did! No cantering at all. We did it in the other direction as well and trotted until my legs hurt. She was so nice and calm at that point, I wished I had done it before going on the trail ride. I think she would have been far less anxious on the trail ride if I had worked her beforehand so will try that next time. When we were done I gave her tons of praise and even draped myself over her neck which she seemed to understand as a good thing. I was very happy with her, but I also want her to let me "in" her space more and not be so fearful. 

I did ask my daughter to take pictures. This is the result  I did snap one or two of her neck on the trail ride, but they're very blurry. My phone doesn't take good pictures. One of these days maybe I'll get a decent picture of me on her!


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## ShirtHotTeez

lol, thanks for pics. I love this mare!

Your daughter likes taking back-end pics, somehow I always seem to end up with pics of me like that, in my case not a pretty sight!!

Kodak has rounded out since you got her! It may just be the pics but it looks a bit like the saddle has moved to one side so that the channel is to one side of kodaks spine. You look good on her.


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## Acadianartist

ShirtHotTeez said:


> lol, thanks for pics. I love this mare!
> 
> Your daughter likes taking back-end pics, somehow I always seem to end up with pics of me like that, in my case not a pretty sight!!
> 
> Kodak has rounded out since you got her! It may just be the pics but it looks a bit like the saddle has moved to one side so that the channel is to one side of kodaks spine. You look good on her.


Good eye ShirtHotTeez! Yes, I realized at one point that the saddle was sideways. A result of the girth I am using only having rollers on one side. I kept tightening it on the same side which, in retrospect, I realized caused it to sit lop-sided. I got off and fixed it a few minutes after the pics were taken.

She has rounded out a bit, indeed! I'm still trying to figure out how much hay they need when they're on grass. I don't have enough pasture for them to live off grass, so was supplementing... but they both put on a few pounds so I backed off. Now they just get half a flake each morning and night so they have a little something. My pasture is pretty bare. But it's a constant re-adjustment to figure out how much they're getting and how much hay they need. 

I also need longer reins. Kodak likes to put her nose down - another Western trait, but as long as it helps her relax, I'm fine with it - and I like to ride her with a fairly loose rein so I'm always leaning forward a bit and holding the reins by the very tips! I might even end up getting her a Western headstall with open reins. 

Yes, the back end pics... not the most flattering. Unless you're into horse butts.


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## Woodhaven

Acadian you made a good call just letting her canter, if she was doing it in a nice relaxed manner, that's good, and then when she was ready to quit you made her go on unto you decided it was time, this way she got a good workout and then was more receptive to trot when asked. Sometimes you have and idea of what you want but a good horseperson is able to adjust that according to the situation and that is what you did and in the end you got what you wanted and no big struggle getting there.
Good for you.


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## Acadianartist

Thanks Woodhaven! I'm still trying to figure things out with her, and she's still trying to do the same. But I was so happy to feel her trying to adjust her pace when I tried to slow her down at the canter. It tells me she really is trying and wants to do the right thing. Which is totally different from riding a horse that is belligerent and just wants to get you off. In a lot of ways, I am lucky that she has such a great mind despite her negative experiences.


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## carshon

Just wanted to pop in again and say - Good Job! you are doing such great things and you look fabulous on her. Learning together is one of the best ways to bond with a horse. She may steal your heart yet!


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## Smilie

Well done! You two look good together.


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## Woodhaven

I might add that cantering (loping) comes a lot easier for her as that is probably what was asked for most with previous riders so with the trot she may have to get used to it and may have to develop those muscles so it may take a little time, I know it did for my sister's gelding but he has a great trot now.


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## Whinnie

Woodhaven said:


> Acadian you made a good call just letting her canter, if she was doing it in a nice relaxed manner, that's good, and then when she was ready to quit you made her go on unto you decided it was time, this way she got a good workout and then was more receptive to trot when asked. Sometimes you have and idea of what you want but a good horseperson is able to adjust that according to the situation and that is what you did and in the end you got what you wanted and no big struggle getting there.
> Good for you.


Doing what you did, Acadian, letting her canter and then keeping her cantering when she was ready to slow down, is one of the ways I was taught to correct a horse that wants to break gait and go faster. You did great!


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## Acadianartist

Whinnie said:


> Doing what you did, Acadian, letting her canter and then keeping her cantering when she was ready to slow down, is one of the ways I was taught to correct a horse that wants to break gait and go faster. You did great!


I wasn't sure it would work of course, but I felt confident that I could easily ride her canter and figured I had nothing to lose since other techniques did not seem to work. Worse came to worse, I was prepared to accept that I have a horse that doesn't like to trot, but has a very nice, rocking-horse canter! 

Just got back from my trip to Maine where I scored an Australian saddle pad and a new girth! I look forward to trying it all out. I think it will work better than the combinations I had before. Will try to get pics again. Hopefully not just of our butts


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## Acadianartist

I just HAD to come on here and talk about what an awesome ride we had tonight! Nothing like an 11 year old to make you throw all your plans out the window and go riding. Usually, I plan my rides and think about them all day. I make mental notes of what I want to accomplish and in what order. Tonight, my daughter, who just finished a week-long riding camp which evidently re-ignited her horse-loving spark, came up to me and said mom, how about we go ride? I obviously couldn't say no, so I put down the laundry basket, put on my boots and headed out. 

For those of you who haven't followed my daughter's adventures with Harley, when we first got him, she was very scared of cantering on him because he has a huge canter and she couldn't stop him. Ever since, she has had this fear of cantering on him, even though she canters lots of other horses. At the end of this week-long camp, they had a show where she successfully completed a 10 jump cross-poles course (not a single pole down) AND cantered bareback! Now she wasn't on Harley for this, but after this great performance, I told her she should try to canter on Harley again. I think she made this big mountain out of a molehill and it was all in her mind (I wonder who she takes after). So tonight, she wanted to try it. But first, she wanted to go on a trail ride. Again, I said, ok, let's go! Kodak was a bit edgy because it was windy, but she bravely went forward for me, taking the lead on the trail. We had no issues at all - she always turns in whatever direction I want her to go and does not change her pace even when we're heading for home. Harley is problematic that way (he gets jiggy on his way home) so I told my daughter we're going to change up the regular loop. We went up and down, and zig-zagged until Harley didn't even know which way was home and he just stopped being jiggy. He was still behind Kodak too, so that helped. She would turn her head once in a while to see if he was still behind us, but otherwise, she was perfect. 

Then we went into the paddock and I stood in the middle with Kodak while my daughter worked her way up to a canter. She did fantastic and cantered all the way around, having no trouble getting Harley to slow back down and transition down to a trot. As I suspected, her skills have increased a lot since we first got Harley almost a year ago and she's bigger and stronger. She was so excited! Now she wants to ride again tomorrow night! LOL She cantered a bit more, then walked it off for a bit.

So then I said ok, while you cool him down, I'm going to try to trot with Kodak. I walked around, asked for a trot on the long side of the paddock and guess what, I got it! No cantering, no hesitation, not even a fast trot, just a normal, relaxed trot! Woohoo!!! 

Oh, also, the Aussie saddle pad worked great with my saddle. It was definitely what I needed. Kept everything in place with enough, but not too much padding. 

And - icing on the cake - I have photos! Mind you, my daughter is a good rider, but not a great photographer as I think we've already established. So this is all I've got that's not completely blurry or doesn't cut me or Kodak's head off. Don't hesitate to give me your thoughts on this saddle and how it fits us. I like it!

Again, what a great night. I am loving this mare more and more and I was so pleased with how responsive Harley was to my daughter. Oh, and I started physiotherapy on my back today. My pelvis is all twisted so I have exercises to do. Hopefully it will help me improve my riding.


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## carshon

Just so so happy for you and your daughter - and especially Kodak - she sounds like she deserves a home that will last! 

What a wonderful post - I am smiling for all of you!


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## Smilie

how awesome!


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## Whinnie

Not fair that I can only click the "like" button once!


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## egrogan

So happy for you and Kodak!


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## HeroAndGunner

So happy for you and your daughter! Both your horses are beautiful!


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## Woodhaven

That's great that you had such a good ride, I applaud your priorities, when a chance to ride comes up leave the housework for another day. The one thing I find about housework is that if you miss dusting this week you only have to do it once next week to catch up.

Since you and your daughter had such a nice time together with the horses, this could happen again since it was fun for you both. Make the most of the time now as the fall is the nicest time to ride.


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## Acadianartist

Woodhaven said:


> That's great that you had such a good ride, I applaud your priorities, when a chance to ride comes up leave the housework for another day. The one thing I find about housework is that if you miss dusting this week you only have to do it once next week to catch up.
> 
> Since you and your daughter had such a nice time together with the horses, this could happen again since it was fun for you both. Make the most of the time now as the fall is the nicest time to ride.


Yes, I have become one of those people whose barn is arguably cleaner than her house  

We rode again tonight! Again, great ride! I think it's safe to say we have overcome the vast majority of Kodak's issues. My daughter suggested that we should ride every night  I think it's awesome and will never say no to a ride, but I expect the novelty of cantering on Harley will eventually wear off. For the time being though, we are having lots of fun riding together in the paddock - this was something else I'd avoided in the past because having other horses and people in the paddock made Kodak nervous. She's still not 100% relaxed, but is getting better with each ride and it's nowhere near the level she was at before. 

I am continuing to do her exercises with her - I have to get her to bend her neck both sides according to the equine massage/physiotherapist. She's caught on to the exercise real quick and is less reluctant to bend her head. That said, she still has a long way to go to bend and collect when I ride her, but at least now we are able to work on those things without worrying that she will explode again!


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## Woodhaven

Daughter is thinking that riding with "boring old Mom" isn't such a bad idea after all and is really FUN.


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## Smilie

Glad I have fellow horse people that put house work in the correct priority!
One of my favorite tee shirts has the following on it:

Horsework before housework!
Nice day, clean windows or go for a ride-hmm, easy choice, esp with Alberta weather and short (pleasant ) riding season


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## Woodhaven

The house work suffered today, but who cares, I have been getting up early and riding before it gets too hot. Had a really nice ride today, went across the road and back through 3 or 4 farms that have woods in the back, saw some deer, my mare noticed them first and pointed them out to me, I would never seen them otherwise. It was just lovely, the flies weren't so bad in the woods so made for a pleasant ride.
It's a little cooler tonight so maybe tomorrow riding again.


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## Acadianartist

Precisely Smilie! Winter will be here soon enough with its short days (dark at 4:30 here) and abundant snowfalls, not to mention temps that make you believe you must be the only one stupid enough to go outside... and nothing like the spontaneity of an 11 year old to throw caution to the wind and just go ride! Today, it was the middle of the afternoon! 

What we accomplished: more trotting and cantering AND a trail ride in a new area! I'd been worrying about Kodak spooking at things so has been reluctant to leave my comfort zone - a short loop of a trail around our property and the neighbors. We didn't exactly go on a big adventure, but we went to a new area (for Kodak), passed a water course (Harley would only cross it after Kodak did and I had to lead Kodak across the first time, but she did it by herself the second time), did some bush whacking when a tree had fallen across the trail, passed one of those tarp garage things flapping in the wind, a house with a guy mowing the lawn, etc. I got off Kodak to lead her across the water and was able to get back on from the ground - that was one of the things I needed to check off before I can take her out painting because I'll be dismounting to paint. She was curious and alert, but not spooky and really helped give Harley the confidence he lacks on the trail - one of the reasons I wanted a solid trail horse! He is actually content to follow her despite the fact that he is usually the dominant one in the relationship. 

Kodak has proven to be bold and willing to go wherever I ask her to go, even when she would prefer not to. We are trusting each other more. I am not getting so stressed when she feels the need to gawk at that strange tree and am able to laugh it off and just push her along. Yes, I know, you've all been telling me all along that I needed to stop being nervous on her, but after falling off her twice, that took some time. 

I sense we will have many years of great adventures together in the backwoods of New Brunswick and I could not be happier about it! My goal now is to desensitize her to my painting gear so we can go out and do a quick sketching session nearby on my birthday, in less than two weeks! Will let you know how we make out...


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## Acadianartist

Woodhaven said:


> The house work suffered today, but who cares, I have been getting up early and riding before it gets too hot. Had a really nice ride today, went across the road and back through 3 or 4 farms that have woods in the back, saw some deer, my mare noticed them first and pointed them out to me, I would never seen them otherwise. It was just lovely, the flies weren't so bad in the woods so made for a pleasant ride.
> It's a little cooler tonight so maybe tomorrow riding again.


Good for you Woodhaven! Sounds lovely. Get those rides in while you can! 

Oh, and I forgot to say my daughter has been cantering every night on Harley... LOL, it's like she discovered a new button and wants to use it all the time now! I suspect her posture needs a bit of work (her coach is coming Friday to work with her and Harley), but Harley is being just lovely, framing up nicely in the canter. She is already talking about the shows they will do together next summer  My horsey mom's heart is bursting with happiness right now!


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## egrogan

Woodhaven said:


> ...saw some deer, my mare noticed them first and pointed them out to me, I would never seen them otherwise....


This made me laugh because I think I'm the only person who always sees the deer before my horse does. They're always around the barn and pasture, so I guess they're a non-event to her, but I sometimes feel like I need to poke her and say, "hey-you see that right??"

Except for the lone buck that almost mowed us down out of the corn field-that one got both of our attention!!!


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## carshon

Super super post! I want to see what you paint on your birthday. Even if it is just a Yellow Smilie face because you are so happy to get on your horse and get out to paint somewhere.

Go Kodak! I am so happy that she has found a home. Sometimes that is all they really need.


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## Woodhaven

I think it's wonderful that you are making so much progress with the horses, and having fun riding with your daughter, great for both of you, painting next on the agenda. It would be good to get out on Kodak alone anyway just to keep her happy going out alone.
Sometimes when they hack out together all the time they resent having to go out alone.


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## Acadianartist

Full weekend... lots of kids coming over to see the horses! Sunday I had some of my colleagues from work with their kids who really wanted to see the horses. I let them ride Harley while I was leading him around the paddock. He was a saint - so patient with these little people. It surprised everyone when my daughter got on him and did a couple of jumps and cantered him around a bit! He perked right up.

Today, a neighbor's kid came over. She'd been taking "lessons" (you know the type, well-meaning horse person letting the kid ride around in circles without really learning anything). So I put her on Harley and after leading him around, let her steer a bit. She struggled, but eventually got it. Harley just put on his patient face and put up with it. My daughter was getting bored just watching this kid ride Harley so I asked if she wanted to ride Kodak. We tacked her up and my daughter got on, w/t/canter - no problems! She did find my Aussie saddle hard to post in, and Kodak did have a little argument with my daughter when she asked for a trot. Kodak cantered, so she pulled back and Kodak shook her head which is what she does when she's frustrated, but then Kodak gave in and it was fine. The two girls rode around for a bit on the two horses and it was a lovely time for my daughter! She never has anyone her age to ride with so we invited this little girl back. 

I didn't have time to ride (haven't since Thursday and I really miss it!), but I did work with Kodak on the property. I want her to get used to wearing a rope halter under her bridle so if I go paint, I can take the bridle (really just a headstall) off and have something to tie her with. I had no idea how she would feel about a rope halter given her head-shyness. But I was able to walk right up to her in the pasture and put it on without her moving a muscle. She followed me around the paddock, out and about on our property (lots of nice grass to eat so I would walk her a bit, then say "OK" and let her graze - she never argues with me when I ask her to walk on, what a saint!). She started at a few things, and I meandered through our apple orchard, wanting to get her used to being tied in a treed area. Finally, we went back to the paddock, and I tied her to the tree in the middle of the paddock (used a quick-release knot in case) and walked away. First she tried to rub the halter off, but then she relaxed and just stood. I went back and scratched her forehead, then left her again for a little longer, and again. No real issues. I'm still concerned about her pulling back hard if something spooks her... but I also don't like the idea of her running through the woods like a banshee with a saddle on and stirrups flailing. I'd rather stay close by and release the knot but hold onto the lead rope if she panics. Is this a bad idea? I need to tie her high enough that she can't get a hoof caught, but I haven't ruled out bringing a haynet to keep her busy. 

Sunday of next weekend is my birthday and I plan to take her out to paint. Even if I just paint a stick figure, it will be a victory! I remain hopeful that it is possible.


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## Whinnie

It just keeps getting better and better, I am so happy for you!


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## Bondre

Acadianartist said:


> Kodak has proven to be bold and willing to go wherever I ask her to go, even when she would prefer not to. We are trusting each other more. I am not getting so stressed when she feels the need to gawk at that strange tree and am able to laugh it off and just push her along. Yes, I know, you've all been telling me all along that I needed to stop being nervous on her, but after falling off her twice, that took some time.


That is a HUGE breakthrough, and one that's difficult to achieve as it's a very personal thing between you and the horse, and there's no one way of getting there. Once you start to establish trust between you, all the rest is just the icing on the cake as it were - it comes with time and exposure to new situations. 

So well done! - it sounds as if your relationship with Kodak is coming along in leaps and bounds, which speaks a lot for you, and your approach to retraining her. 

I too would love to see what you paint on your first joint outing. 

And check this out! Maybe Kodak could learn this too?


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## Acadianartist

Hahahaha... I love it Bondre!!! But it's more likely something Harley would do as he's very mouthy and love to play with things. That's hilarious!


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## Jan1975

I love reading this new update! She sounds like such an obedient horse. Yay for all of the progress you've made on her and your daughter has come so far too! On both horses!


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## Acadianartist

Hey! Good to see you in here again Jan! 

I haven't updated much because there isn't anything new... Kodak is doing well. Still not a relaxed, confident, outgoing horse like Harley, but I have learned to love her for who she is and I dare say, she tolerates me more and more  

I've been challenging her on every trail ride, taking her further out, showing her new things, taking her out alone, putting saddle bags on her. So far, so good! I think I know just how far I can go each time and I don't take it further than I feel she can tolerate. I've also learned to enjoy her alert, curious behavior and not worry too much if she has a little start here and there. 

Hopefully we will get out for a ride/paint session soon and I will post pics. I promise!


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## Acadianartist

We did it! I took Kodak out for a ride and painted! Mind you, I was more concerned about how she was doing than how my painting was going... and I got the result I would expect, but that's ok, I just wanted to do a test run. 

One of the challenges was using a minimal painting setup. Kodak's not crazy about me putting anything too big or noisy on her back, not surprisingly. I could not find saddle bags big enough to carry my usual setup, or even my lightweight setup, so I had to improvise. I dug out my old cigar box, which I had used when I first started painting outside, and found it fits ok in my saddle bags. It limits me as far as size goes, but for now, I can live with that. The first time we tried it on though, the paint inside rattled too much for Kodak's liking, so this time, I padded it with rags I can use to wipe my brushes. I also packed a small, folding stool. I usually paint standing up, but that would mean bringing a tripod for my canvas and/or paintbox and that's more bulk. For now, the stool works ok AND it doubles as a mounting block! After I was done, I used her lead rope to haul the stool up and tied it behind me. She was surprisingly ok with that. 

I ended up taking her bridle off and securing her loosely to a nearby tree. We have a brand new biothane headstall - see last pic where we're having a "moment"  . I do like the biothane headstall + rope halter as a combo, very lightweight. I am choosing not to tie her hard and it works well with her. She won't go far, even if the rope is just loosely hanging. She did have enough rope to graze a little. Don't worry, I kept looking over to her often to see if she would be careful about the lead rope. She is. She ground ties very well so I figured she might. She seems to be aware of where the rope is, and avoids stepping on it. 

Anyway, I'm not sure how much painting we'll do because I was far more focused on her than on painting. But I achieved my goal before summer is officially over so I'm satisfied. At some point in the not-too-distant future, I can totally see myself heading out for the day with her and painting while she has some lunch. Eating helps her relax so while I expect her to stand still for me when I need her to do so (and she generally does), I figure why not give her something to do and make it worthwhile for her too!

Overall, I feel we are progressing, but it's a gradual thing with lots of bumps in the road. She still struggles with noises in the woods, wind, idiots popping wheelies on motorcycles (seriously though, who wouldn't?), but she is trying hard and I think she will always be sensitive, but will keep doing her best to do what I ask of her. If she gets scared, I know it, but I don't feel my life is in peril. I do feel happy about how far we've come and cannot imagine my life without her now. It's pretty obvious to me I need her as much as she needs me, as corny as that sounds. I never was someone to take the easy road... 

So as promised, pics! You can see my minimal gear in the saddle bags. Still room for drinks and snacks should I want that. And yes, the painting is awful, but that's ok. I wasn't expecting anything good, I just wanted to actually slap some paint on a canvas to see if it's doable. Turns out I haven't been painting much since getting horses and as a result, my skills suck, especially in this situation! I'm only posting it to prove that I actually did paint


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## Jan1975

I love this!! So happy you were able to do a test run of the painting (which looks amazing!). You should decorate the barn with some of your paintings!


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## Whinnie

Wow, that is so fantastic. The more you pack stuff around on her, the better she will be. Ha, maybe you can make a travois and drag everything behind! (just kidding sort of)


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## Bondre

That is amazing! You are both amazing. I'm so impressed that your set yourself a goal, and despite Kodak absolutely not being the horse you expected her to be, you have still achieved that goal together. Kodak's western skills of ground tying and waiting patiently will come into their own now. 

I'm amused that you consider your skills as an artist have lost their edge since you became a horse owner - and trainer. I wonder how many of us here have let other skills slip because of their horses? I was never a very prolific artist myself but I do enjoy painting - yet I haven't set brush to canvas since getting my horse :shock: I hope with Kodak you manage to combine both - painting outdoors with your horse sounds companionable and rather idyllic.


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## Jan1975

Bondre said:


> I'm amused that you consider your skills as an artist have lost their edge since you became a horse owner - and trainer. I wonder how many of us here have let other skills slip because of their horses?


Good point. I'm not an artist, but I'm a runner, and my running has definitely declined in the past year. I still run, but I am not getting the miles per week I used to! Instead of 4-5 runs a week I'm getting around 3.


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## carshon

Artist - I was just thinking of you this morning. And want to wish you a happy belated/early birthday as I know your goal was to paint via horse by your birthday.

I am so happy happy happy for you and Kodak- the painting is great! You can send it to me or better yet hang it on Kodak's stall door as a reminder of how far you have come.

Keep up the good work - and she looks great!


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## Acadianartist

Thanks so much for all the kinds comments everyone! I think the people in this forum understand more than all the non-horsey people in my life just how much it means to me that we have come this far. 

Whinnie - it would be nice to train her for driving! LOL, but I don't think I'll push it that far. If she can carry some bulkier gear at some point, I'll be very happy. For now, I'm just tickled that she lets me do silly things like pull up a folding stool with a lead rope while sitting on her. Seriously, this is the horse that spooked at her own shadow! 

Bondre - I have been an on and off painter most of my life. It doesn't worry me that my skills have deteriorated - I expected it and fully accept it. I would trade in painting for horses in a second. But hopefully I won't have to. As my kids get older and as I wind down some of my bigger work-related projects and try to avoid committing to more, I'll have more time to ride and paint. Someday I'll be retired and will have nothing but riding and painting on my agenda every. single. day. GAWD that will be nice! Kodak's only 10. I figure I can groom her as my painting partner and we'll have many years together. 

Jan - interesting that your running has declined, but really, there's only so many hours in the day. I still consider myself so, so lucky to have all these amazing things going on in my life! I feel like I live such a full life and am so grateful for it. I plan on enjoying every second, even though sometimes, there are tough choices to make. 

carshon - how sweet of you to think of me! On the weekend of my birthday, my parents came to spend it with me. They live 2.5 hours away, so I didn't have the heart to leave them to go ride and paint, even though that's what I REALLY wanted to do! Sacrifices have to be made all around  When they finally left on Sunday, it rained all day, then it got really windy and I rode out with Kodak all loaded up with my paint gear, but could tell immediately that I was not going to be able to paint. So I decided to just do a quick walk around the property with the saddle bags and paint gear so she could at least get used to those. It was only a week later (this past weekend) that I actually managed to get out and paint. But again, I'm so grateful I got to do that! And Kodak really was quite patient (the nice, lush grass didn't hurt). She's going to be my perfect painting partner, I just know it! And eventually, I plan on including her in my paintings! I may need to start a blog... oh dear, another project


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