# Flea bites



## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

Fimargue said:


> Is it Sultan the most fleabitten? Could you show some photos to compare?


Sultan is the fleabitten one.

I don't have photos in the same lighting showing exactly the same pose, but these give you a general idea. He was dry in all these photos.

May 2012:











August 2015 (the red on his barrel and legs is dust):











June 2017:











these were taken july 2016, while wet, to show the distinctly different colors:


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## Fimargue (Jun 19, 2015)

Wow, the pigment. That is so nice.

He reminds a bit of my pure Polish friend, but he is more pink really lol. 22 years old in the photos.
@Yogiwick, isn't your boy Polish as well?


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

The only other I have seen that fleabitten is a freckles Playboy son I used to ride. I think the heavy biting is beautiful.


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## Fimargue (Jun 19, 2015)

@QtrBel, I wonder if it comes from the Thoroughbred side? Just did a quick check up on the pedigree. Are there a lot of grey Quarter Horses? 

Could flea bites be most common in TBs and Arabs? I don't remember seeing a fleabitten Spanish Horse, or Lusitano. Need to start paying attention.


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## Caledonian (Nov 27, 2016)

At my first riding school, there was a Highland gelding named Stookie who had the shoulder markings. I remember the different shades of pale grey/red that looked like something had been spilt down his shoulder. It’s the one and only time that I’ve seen this type of marking in person. 

I wonder if it’s the genetics for greys of any breed or if it was the influence of Spanish and French horses on the Highland.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Fascinating thread! Our 3/4 Arab Harley is flea-bitten. He was born chestnut, and grayed out, so the flea bites are chestnut. He also has a few darker marks, some permanent, others that seem to come and go when he gets a scar. I feel like the flea bites are getting more prominent, but we've only had him a little over two years (he'll be 19 in a few days) so it's hard to tell. They almost completely fade in the winter, since his longer guard hairs are white.


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## Fimargue (Jun 19, 2015)

Caledonian said:


> At my first riding school, there was a Highland gelding named Stookie who had the shoulder markings. I remember the different shades of pale grey/red that looked like something had been spilt down his shoulder. It’s the one and only time that I’ve seen this type of marking in person.
> 
> I wonder if it’s the genetics for greys of any breed or if it was the influence of Spanish and French horses on the Highland.


I did quick reading and was mentioned that they used Percherons to create the breed. Arabs were used to create Percheron, to add stamina. I bet that's where it comes from.


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## Fimargue (Jun 19, 2015)

@Acadianartist, I just love Harley and his pink nose!

I always wondered if my Polish friend was born chestnut. And today I have been wondering if my mare was born black after all, or rather seal brown. 

What do you all think? She is 4 in the photo.



Dam's grand dam is black (product of two grey horses) and there are couple other black horses in the Egyptian side. 

Her dam is a chestnut, here:


I have been looking for fleabitten Spanish Horses, does seem to be more rare. I found one stallion for now: *Duque CXIII
*
They have so beautiful horses.


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## Caledonian (Nov 27, 2016)

Fimargue said:


> I did quick reading and was mentioned that they used Percherons to create the breed. Arabs were used to create Percheron, to add stamina. I bet that's where it comes from.


 You got me reading as well. :smile:

They tested grey and non greys from a number of horses which included TB, Scottish, English and Scandinavian native breeds and found that the greys had a particular mutation which showed that they had a common ancestor. They all had Arabs in their background indicating that the original grey mutation was from an Arab horse. 

Given how widely Arabs have been used to refine other breeds, it’s going to be very common. I think there was a lot of Arab blood bred into the Highland pony, including Percherons but also one of the Highland Chieftains brought them north in the 16thc to add lightness. 
Equally, you'd think that Spanish Arabs would've influenced the horses of the country, especially as their breeding was in the hands of the Royals and the government. I'm surprised that it's so rare. 

It's not a subject that I know very well. My first mare, Sasha, a Welsh, was a grey but i gave her colour very little thought. If fleabitten’s are Gg heterozygous and those that go white are GG, then Sasha would’ve been the later and Stookie the former. Stookie’s shoulder mark seems to have been a deactivated area where normal pigmentation continued. 

They say that they don’t know what causes the flea-bitten marks. Some have it as a characteristic of greys while others suggest that it may be unrelated and dark coloured horses have them, the fleabites only showing due to the greying.

it's an interesting subject.


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

Caledonian said:


> If fleabitten’s are Gg heterozygous and those that go white are GG


That would be too easy!

My mare is Gg by pedigree and doesn't have a fleabite anywhere to be seen.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I'm flattered you remembered.. Yes Desi is Polish/Crabbet. I have also noticed fleabites more in "hotbloods".

I got Des at 13 and he was white. Then a few fleabites in summer coat. Then more. Now he is showing them through his winter coat.

I think the standard (haha, when do they follow that?) is that they get darker early on, then lighter and lighter to white, then fleabites.

I LOVE the pics of the "pink" grey and the "black/white" grey together... VERY cool.

I'll post some pics if I can (my earlier pics are on another computer)

Not too many Spanish horses around here but an Andalusian I've worked with has flea bites and 2 Lipizzaners both white. I'd say Arabs first followed by TBs in my flea bite experience


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## Fimargue (Jun 19, 2015)

phantomhorse13 said:


> That would be too easy!
> 
> My mare is Gg by pedigree and doesn't have a fleabite anywhere to be seen.


I read somewhere that Gg greys are over 99% more likely fleabitten. Need to find information.
@Yogiwick, pics, yes please! I remember you mentioning - and also he looks Polish. I'm a pedigree nerd. 

I have known three grey Spanish horses, one of them Talila's colour, and none with fleabites.

What differs them from Arabs and TBs is that they have a cream and pearl gene in the breed. Arabs have sabino.


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## Fimargue (Jun 19, 2015)

Has anyone seen horses with black fleabites?


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Fimargue said:


> I read somewhere that Gg greys are over 99% more likely fleabitten. Need to find information.
> 
> @Yogiwick, pics, yes please! I remember you mentioning - and also he looks Polish. I'm a pedigree nerd.
> 
> ...


Yes he is purebred and original owner (we are his second) did not bother to register him but his pedigree is known. I don't have it but my trainer who is a breeder said it was Polish/Crabbet and he was well bred and similar to her own horses bloodlines. So he has a good pedigree but don't ask me what it is :rofl:


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Fimargue said:


> Has anyone seen horses with black fleabites?


I've seen a few but less common.

If you think about it if it matches the base coat then black/seal brown would be the least common. All chestnuts, bays, etc will show up as brown.

Also the breeds where grey's are most common tend to not have "other" colors.


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## Caledonian (Nov 27, 2016)

@phantomhorse13 - You're right. I’m definitely guilty of generalising.:smile:

The research on Lippizzaners showed that it was far more common for Gg greys to be speckled but not impossible for GG to have the odd ones. 

The number of fleabites were graded on a scale from 0-3 and although the Gg Lippizzaners didn’t go lower than around 0.5, I wonder if, with a wider selection of horses/breeds, it would show that some Ggs would not have fleabites and sit at zero, have them but are pale enough to be hidden, or have very few. They do seem to agree that there is a considerable variation with the mutation. 

To be honest, most of it goes over my head.:smile:

@*Fimargue* - I’ve never seen black fleabites but they may appear as a dark grey.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

I've seen a few Percheron with black flea bites. They have a silvery appearance like a seal. One even had the bloody (black though) shoulder.


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## Fimargue (Jun 19, 2015)

Yogiwick said:


> I've seen a few but less common.
> 
> If you think about it if it matches the base coat then black/seal brown would be the least common. All chestnuts, bays, etc will show up as brown.
> 
> Also the breeds where grey's are most common tend to not have "other" colors.


Chestnuts seem to show up with chestnut flea bites, but mine was most likely born black looking at her pedigree, and has chestnut flea bites. Only reason I have for this is Ee black, thus the red coming out.

Sultan's flea bites are definitely brown and he was born bay. And this TB I know has definitely brown flea bites.


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