# despooking and bombproofing...



## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

crack a whip while waving a bag around while standing on a tarp. from his back.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

while a friend bounces an exersize ball off of his sides.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

and another friend lights fireworks under his belly!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

That's a joke, by the way.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I recommend buying and absorbing Countdown to Broke (Amazon.com: The Modern Horseman's Countdown to Broke: Real Do-It-Yourself Horse Training in 33 Comprehensive Steps (9781570764196): Sean Patrick, Dr. Robert M. Miller: Books).

It covers 33 steps in training to get to a reasonable broke horse, has very clear instructions and photos, and also has tips for deciding when your horse is ready for the next step.

Mia is 10 and was once used for endurance racing. I've had her for 2 years. After a lot of thought, I've started her back at the beginning because there were too many holes in her training. I'll continue to ride her, but we're also doing daily sessions to go step by step. The author figures with regular work, most horses can get there in about a year. Mia may go faster since she has already had a lot of riding, or maybe not - the holes may take longer to fill since she needs to unlearn some bad habits.

In any case, it is the best of about a dozen books I have on training a young horse (or a 10 year old with holes!)

He covers sacking out, but there is a lot to do PRIOR to sacking out. Skip those, and you'll end up with a horse like Mia - trained on the surface, but not at the core. :shock:


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

tinyliny said:


> That's a joke, by the way.


:hide:


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

with my mare i used anything i could find, ropes, whips, bags, brooms, chairs, tarps, saddle pads balls, etc. i touched her everywhere with them and also held them all over her back. i focused on the parts she didnt like, i always hold them in that spot until she relaxes. i also didnt hold her in one spot, but let her move around a lot, so she has to do it on her own, not because im forcing her. i usually did everything off lead in a round pen, i had a broken arm at the time so it was easier one handed to just have her loose and move with her. once they relax [head down, ears soft, licking/chewing.] you take the object/pressure off, then move on to a new area.


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## AllThePrettyHorses (Dec 15, 2010)

I've found with my mare that I just have to get on and go. She's not really spooky by nature, but the more places we go, the more things we see, she just keeps getting quieter and more trusting that I'm not taking her into a death trap.


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## mellybean (Mar 18, 2011)

Thanks guys for all the feedback! Before we actually took him home but he went thru an electric fence literally DAYS before we got him, and I'd become so attached to him, and was scared if we didnt take him hed be a meat horse so we took the challenge home... We have grain bags full of cans that he doesnt mind we can lunge him with them on his back but once someones on him he spooks... He has his days, and is supposed to be a family horse soi we shall see how it turns out I'm definately gonna try that book and I've got a tarp, hula hoop, chair, stool and jugs full of rocks ready to go!


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## SAsamone (Nov 5, 2009)

AllThePrettyHorses said:


> I've found with my mare that I just have to get on and go. She's not really spooky by nature, but the more places we go, the more things we see, she just keeps getting quieter and more trusting that I'm not taking her into a death trap.


Agreed!! My arab was a terrible trail horse!! I found that doing desensitizing exercises and just taking her out and about was the best way to quit the spooking...it's like a dog- if you don't socialize them, they don't know what to do...the more you expose your baby to, even if it's just a walk and not a ride, the more he will learn to communicate with you, trust you, and learn from you as far as what is scary and what is not....  hope that helps!!


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

No matter the article I turn my back to the horse (he's on a lead) and move the item in front of me and start walking. As long as this "thing" is going away from him he'll be ok. Change direction a little and he will see it more with one eye. Change direction again (serpentines) and he will see it with the other. I'll keep flapping or bouncing until he's doing ok with it. I will then lead him in a small circle, doing both sides. With the item not moving I will then stand facing him and when he reaches to touch it I will step back before he can touch it. This helps picque his curiosity. If I moved toward him he might be fearful. If he doesn't take a step toward me I will step back to where I was standing and wait. I want to be able to get him to start following me as I walk backward. Try it, it works.


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

mellybean said:


> Thanks guys for all the feedback! Before we actually took him home but he went thru an electric fence literally DAYS before we got him, and I'd become so attached to him, and was scared if we didnt take him hed be a meat horse so we took the challenge home... We have grain bags full of cans that he doesnt mind we can lunge him with them on his back but once someones on him he spooks... He has his days, and is supposed to be a family horse soi we shall see how it turns out I'm definately gonna try that book and I've got a tarp, hula hoop, chair, stool and jugs full of rocks ready to go!


Desensitization HAS to involve an immediate release when the horse relaxes...when things are tied on the horse, you can not effectively give him a release. This is why he is probably so jittery when you are on...he is not actually "learning" to be okay with the stuff you are tying on him, rather he is simply coping with it there. 

I also highly recommend "Down Under Horsemanship" Clinton Anderson. I like alot of his groundwork techniques, especially his desensitization stuff.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

christopher said:


> crack a whip while waving a bag around while standing on a tarp. from his back.


I personally would not want a horse to be that used to a whip, it is a tool that I want to mean something. 

The best way to get a horse used to things is to expose them to it often. The place I used to board at rented out garages to people working on cars, that noise that takes the nuts off wheels and engines roaring, they got used to that in a heart beat.


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

AlexS said:


> I personally would not want a horse to be that used to a whip, it is a tool that I want to mean something.
> 
> The best way to get a horse used to things is to expose them to it often. The place I used to board at rented out garages to people working on cars, that noise that takes the nuts off wheels and engines roaring, they got used to that in a heart beat.


Considering it's your body language that tells a horse he needs to move or not, you should not be concerned about him being 'used' to whips, sticks and strings, and the like...I personally do not want ANY of the horses I work with to be afraid of my tools; so I desensitize. But I also want them to be sensitized to them as well (ie, respect them)...your body language is either passive (for desensitizing; telling him to stand there and relax) or active (for sensitizing; telling him to move his feet, or a certain part of his body)...so the horse WILL learn the difference if you use your body correctly to convey what you want of him. That's just my personal take on it.


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## HollyBubbles (Jun 22, 2009)

If you plan on showing the horse anytime... Don't forget to densensitise him to umbrellas :lol: you would not believe how many times I've been unfortunate enough to have a non-horsey spectator open up an umbrella right by my horse... HELLO!! (Thankfully my mare is pretty used to it being 25)

I bring random things out to Mitchell's paddock and let him see them, he's usually okay with me touching them to his nose etc so he can sniff them, but if he doesn't like me touching him elsewhere with it (eg butterfly nets:lol then I put it up somewhere in the paddock that it will blow around and he see's it all the time. His butterfly net has been in his paddock two weeks now and after me pulling it down and touching him with it each day he is starting to get used to it.


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## mellybean (Mar 18, 2011)

See this is what i mean  Soo many people say different things, and I've worked at two training centres with totally different views. Uugh. I have been exposing him to things and lunging him around things he needs to get used to (ie barrels, mounting blocks, jump poles etc) and that seems to help, and the tying of the sacks I got from KArters when I worked there. I just want to make sure there's nothing I can do that will totally RUIN him. Right not he is very [pressure sensitive, he is used to the whip but I rarely have to use it he moves well off hand gestures...


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

He sounds really sensitive. Does he sort of fall asleep sometimes when you're playing with him? It may look like he's really relaxed and then all of sudden he spooks?


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## Palomino Brigade (Mar 20, 2011)

I'm training Ray, but have found that keeping him in a pasture and not in a barn and riding him often is a good way to get results. (Bags blow and get caught in fences, flags flapping, cows and goats jumping all over the place, dogs barking, turkeys running across the pasture, that tarp on the hay bales, tractors, cars, motorcycles, other horses, 4-wheelers etc. etc. don't bother him now.) He's a year or 2 younger than yours and I'm a teenager with no riding instructor. If we can do this, you can!


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

You know I think a lot of people think of just throwing horses into situations and hopefully they'll swim. For some horses that does work but for more sensitive horses that doesn't work and it may seem like nothing is working when in fact it is your technique that is the problem. 

Desensitizing should be more about building confidence and less about getting a horse to tolerate things. If you build the confidence then you'll be able to go anywhere and do almost anything safely. So I think you need to think about approach and retreat. I know it could seem that people are saying different things but actually a lot of people here are really saying similar things.

I understand what mom2pride is saying and that does work in certain situations. But if you've got a horse that will not let you get near and starts to go kookoo when you place a stick near it could be hard to hold it there until they relax 'cause they may not relax and it might make worse. Then you end up just reinforcing what they already thought which is they can't trust you. 

Someone else suggested moving the object away from the horse and that is part of approach and retreat. So take the stick with the bag (or whatever it is that makes his sides quiver) and move it towards him and watch his reaction - feel for it. As soon as you feel he is getting tense move it away and give him a minute to think it over. Repeat and you'll start to see improvements.


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

Huh...didn't realize I'd even given any advice on how to desensitize in this thread. Just that I DO desensitize, and sensitize, and why. 

Anyway...I start with simply walking away from the horse (horse on lead, to follow) with the object I am desensitizing to, and go from there, so lovedone is spot on there. Then turn around, and desensitize the air around horse, and eventually the horse to the object. May take the horse 5 minutes, or 5 sessions to fully become comfortable with a new object, but don't give up just because he doesn't like it at first, just progress a little slower (say spend a little more time on the first stage, before moving onto the next...)


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## mellybean (Mar 18, 2011)

The loved one: no, he is always very alert, and we have been slowly getting him used to things we notice spook him more than other, that and trying to work on the whole "trust" thing, which is the reason I was wondering, If I do a "trust exercise" then introduce things he doesnt like if thats detremental to our training. If its likely (as I know all horses are different) to next time think WAIT a minute I trusted her and she made me walk on that noisy blue thing I hate".. or more of a "well last time it wasnt so bad it didnt kill me this time wont be bad" I know theres different methods bla bla bla I just dont want to do ANYthing to "ruin" him, or make it so hes just a pretty little pasture horse with potential sitting, cuz hes spooky or gosy
PAlomino Brigade: Thanks for te confidence boost! All I keep hearing is "wow for a 4 year odl hes behind" that made me feel alot better!
Mom2pride: We've started lunging with leaving things in the arena (we dont have a round pen anymore), before he wouldnt walk NEAR the barrels without pulling or trying to get away, and now he'll lunge around them and has even walked up to them to drink from them. Is that the kind of thing you mean by slow introduction?


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

mom2pride said:


> Considering it's your body language that tells a horse he needs to move or not, you should not be concerned about him being 'used' to whips, sticks and strings, and the like...I personally do not want ANY of the horses I work with to be afraid of my tools; so I desensitize. But I also want them to be sensitized to them as well (ie, respect them)...your body language is either passive (for desensitizing; telling him to stand there and relax) or active (for sensitizing; telling him to move his feet, or a certain part of his body)...so the horse WILL learn the difference if you use your body correctly to convey what you want of him. That's just my personal take on it.


So when I am riding, he is looking for my body language and I don't need to use a whip if he is not listening to my leg?

I want them to respect the tool too, but what does that really mean? I don't beat my horse, so he isn't shaking when I bring out a whip, but a whip certainly stings so isn't respect similar to fear? A horse should move off the leg aid so they don't feel the whip - is this respect or they don't want to feel the sting, ie. fear of the sting?

I think we get too caught up in the buzz words of the moment, when it is not accurate. Horses don't want to hurt, and a whip when used does somewhat. It is not about respect for a tool it is about not wanting to be hurt. I use a whip, but I am not confused about its purpose.


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

Kind of yes...if that is what is working for your guy then go with it. Maybe just spend more time each time, especially since he's had alot of time near certain things already... The more he seems to get used to something, just spend a little more time there each time, and then start introducing something else, or start shifting that 'old' object to new areas. I find that NOT focusing on large objects (the stuff you can't lift to desensitize too, haha), is the easiest way to get them used to it...just spend alot of time near it. 

When I work with a horse and find something that bothers them...say a new ground pole in the arena, I will just work near it; not even focus on getting the horse over it, or even trying to get him to sniff it...just focus on what I am doing with him; maybe I am lungeing, or doing sending exercises, or whatever. Eventually, because I, myself, have given no reason to fear the object, the horse starts gradually going closer and closer without me really even having to force him...I just find that I can just start sending him closer and he just isn't bothered. 

There are SO many ways you can desensitize a horse to things, so you've really just got to figure out what will work for your horse, and go with it...it sounds like the more confidence you have, the more this horse will have, so definitely focus on how you are acting and feeling around things that have made him react previously...if you are at all 'expecting' him to react, he will...act like it's no big deal, and just do some exercises near it, and I bet you will find he will stop reacting so much to silly things.


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

AlexS said:


> So when I am riding, he is looking for my body language and I don't need to use a whip if he is not listening to my leg?
> 
> I want them to respect the tool too, but what does that really mean? I don't beat my horse, so he isn't shaking when I bring out a whip, but a whip certainly stings so isn't respect similar to fear? A horse should move off the leg aid so they don't feel the whip - is this respect or they don't want to feel the sting, ie. fear of the sting?
> 
> I think we get too caught up in the buzz words of the moment, when it is not accurate. Horses don't want to hurt, and a whip when used does somewhat. It is not about respect for a tool it is about not wanting to be hurt. I use a whip, but I am not confused about its purpose.


Hmmm...not really sure how to answer this one, since I rarely ever have to use a whip, or spur when I ride. I've only ever had to use either on a few occasions to 'wake' a dull horse up, so they would soften to my cues, and then they were dropped. The horse is given soft cues to respond to, long before I ever have to consider going to a crop; and "most" respond to those, and you rarely ever have to resort to other aids. 

Yes, a horse should move off the leg, but is this your first cue, second cue, or your only cue? My horses get a shift in my body, and a click or kiss before they ever feel my leg...and my current mare rarely ever has to feel my leg, and I've never had to use a crop on her. A horse will respond to your body undersaddle too, so yes, he should be looking for your body shift in position, long before he has to feel the crop. I look at crops, the same as I do spurs...they should be used as a temporary aid, and dropped when the horse responds to more subtle cues. 

I understand what you are saying about the whip, but really, how much pain can it inflict on a horse (when used in responsible hands), when they can whollop one another in the pasture without so much as a grimace? I am not confused on what a whip does (enhances cues), but I do not think it is a tool that inflicts alot of pain on a horse. Maybe a slight discomfort, but unless your talking about someone really laying into the horse, definitely not much.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Hmmmm. 

If a whip means nothing why do they respond to it? Have you hit yourself with a whip, you feel it, a horse knows when a fly lands on them. 

I am not in doubt that a whip is felt by a horse and this is why they respond to it, this is not them responding to a tool, this is them responding to not wanting to be hurt again. 


I never rode with a whip before my current horse, but he is bone idol, he drags his rear feet when he moves (no medical issues, has x-rays and ultrasounds done) he is just lazy. He doesn't want to move and he doesn't want to move forward, in his mind he is already moving. Of course I move my seat while asking for the cue. He is just lazy. 

Have you never ridden a lesson horse like this?


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Apologizing for the double post. 

So please explain to me how desensitize a horse to a whip works, if you still use a whip? 

I think you are not teaching a horse to fear it, then they at some point get a whap, what does that mean to the horse. I as a human would lose ALL trust, I would not trust a single thing you taught me. I would doubt everything as you proved yourself to be untrustworthy. 

NH stuff is useful, and while it is not for me, I am not against it - but it surely has to make sense.


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## Reiterin (Mar 28, 2010)

OK the whip topic was started by the idea of "cracking a whip" to desensitize for sound. (actually I think it was started as a joke, but) - Now you're talking about using it ON the horse. different things. and I assume different whips. (lunge whip vs. riding crop) So these arguments are off track a little bit. 
Either way, a smart horse should know the difference. "I get a tap from a riding crop, I better get my butt in gear." - "My human is cracking the lunge whip for no reason again. meh." or 'using the lunge whip while asking me to move. I better go.'


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

the whip is an artificial aid used to reinforce a natural aid. if your natural aids are saying "stand still and relax" then you should be able to crack a whip off your horses back with the horse happily standing still and relaxing.

there's also the argument of response vs reaction. if you havent desensitized the horse to the whip then odds are your getting flight reactions (run away from that) rather than "knowledgable" responses (i know what to do when that happens)

alexs, respect and fear are very different. respect is knowing what something/someone can do and knowing when to avoid it. fear is not knowing what something/someone can do therefore avoiding it at all costs.



> I think you are not teaching a horse to fear it, then they at some point get a whap, what does that mean to the horse. I as a human would lose ALL trust, I would not trust a single thing you taught me. I would doubt everything as you proved yourself to be untrustworthy.


it doesn't teach the horse to lose trust, it teaches the horse to look more closely for other, more subtle cues.

if anything this proves that you are actually more trustworthy. "if you say stand still, i can trust you can swing that whip around me without hurting me" "if you say go, i can trust that you will back it up with that whip"
the variable there isn't the whip or how much the whip hurts or whatever, the variable is what the human and leader said to the horse in the first place.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

it's the same difference between mutual grooming and biting. horses chew eachother fine, using the teeth. but when the ears go back the other horse knows it has to move otherwise it's going to get the teeth. both are uses of teeth, but only one is done with assertion. this establishes a language of mental dominance rather than physical dominance, as it somewhat takes the teeth out of the picture and makes it more about what body language is used before it gets to the point where they need to use their teeth.
humans can use whips in the same way


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

great posts chrisopher !

if you have a regular progression from natural aid to artificial aid, your horse will understand what it is that leads you to tap with a crop. i use soft leg, medium leg, hard leg, one cluck [i hate people who cluck constantly, obviously your horses doesnt care about your bird noises !], then tap with the crop. if you are consistant with your progression they will learn it, and learn what to do not to get hit. if you randomly hit them for no reason, ya they will probably fear you.

i also use a crop/bat, not a whip. have you ever hit yourself with a crop ? it doesnt hurt, its more for the noise of leather slapping leather.


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## HollyBubbles (Jun 22, 2009)

gypsygirl said:


> great posts chrisopher !
> 
> if you have a regular progression from natural aid to artificial aid, your horse will understand what it is that leads you to tap with a crop. i use soft leg, medium leg, hard leg, one cluck [i hate people who cluck constantly, obviously your horses doesnt care about your bird noises !], then tap with the crop. if you are consistant with your progression they will learn it, and learn what to do not to get hit. if you randomly hit them for no reason, ya they will probably fear you.
> 
> i also use a crop/bat, not a whip. have you ever hit yourself with a crop ? it doesnt hurt, its more for the noise of leather slapping leather.


but then you get the lazy "to cool for school" ones that even with the progression go insanely mental when you finally do give them a tap with a crop... Mitchell. as if to say "OMG you did not just do that to me:shock:"
:lol:


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## PaintHorseMares (Apr 19, 2008)

AllThePrettyHorses said:


> I've found with my mare that I just have to get on and go. She's not really spooky by nature, but the more places we go, the more things we see, she just keeps getting quieter and more trusting that I'm not taking her into a death trap.


This is indeed the most effective way. Desensitizing at the barn helps and is fine to do if you don't have the time to get out, but there is no substitute for time on the trail and in the saddle.


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