# Lunging with Cavesson



## eeo11horse (Jun 22, 2012)

Anyone?


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

It does nothing, it's the same as putting side reins on a halter.


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## eeo11horse (Jun 22, 2012)

Well I'm asking more about the whole thing (like when you use it with side reins and all)


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

palogal said:


> It does nothing, it's the same as putting side reins on a halter.


 
It won't change the way the side reins work or don't work. But what it does is make the connection to the horse be NOT via his mouth. You connect to a hook on the front of his nose, and this makes it harder for him to pull against the rein, thereby encouraging him to balance himself without leaning on the rein, nor do any corrections you do go through his mouth. This is the traditional way of lunging in classical dressage schools of Europe.


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## equitate (Dec 14, 2012)

There are three rings on a caveson, the middle is for the lunge line, and the side ones are for the s.r. The height of the sr should be a straight line from the mouth to roughly the point of the hip (or where the rider's knee might be). Usually the inside rein is a hole or two shorter to have a slightly lateral flexion alignment.

Otherwise are you talking about how to lunge, or ????


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Side reins on a halter (a cavesson is just a glorified halter) do nothing to teach the horse about self carriage or contact. You need to think about what you want to achieve with the lunging - are you lunging for exercise? To develop connection? To develop muscles? No reason I can think of would be helped by using side reins directly on a cavesson, and in fact some of them would be directly hampered. I lunge with side reins, and I use a cavesson - over top of a bridle. The side reins connect to the bit, and the lunge to the cavesson. 



equitate said:


> There are three rings on a caveson, the middle is for the lunge line, and the side ones are for the s.r. The height of the sr should be a straight line from the mouth to roughly the point of the hip (or where the rider's knee might be). Usually the inside rein is a hole or two shorter to have a slightly lateral flexion alignment.
> 
> Otherwise are you talking about how to lunge, or ????


Re the underlined - as far as I am aware, this is not "usually" the case, and is in fact incorrect. Both reins should be of even length.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

Chiilaa said:


> Side reins on a halter (a cavesson is just a glorified halter) do nothing to teach the horse about self carriage or contact. You need to think about what you want to achieve with the lunging - are you lunging for exercise? To develop connection? To develop muscles? No reason I can think of would be helped by using side reins directly on a cavesson, and in fact some of them would be directly hampered. I lunge with side reins, and I use a cavesson - over top of a bridle. The side reins connect to the bit, and the lunge to the cavesson.
> 
> 
> 
> Re the underlined - as far as I am aware, this is not "usually" the case, and is in fact incorrect. Both reins should be of even length.


Yes. side reins should never be uneven.


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## equitate (Dec 14, 2012)

The question was how do you start lunging with a caveson (initially present it), not how, or the progression (which was recently discussed in another thread).Didnt actually put why. And tinyliny is correct about the tradition (was specifying that...not the op...sorry).

A cavesson is not just a glorified halter for a number of reasons, they are padded, have straps (not a throatlatch) to prevent them from sliding sideways and torqued into the eye of the horse. And because the line is attached in front rather than underneath, so they allow vibrational half halts, easier flexion inside which can makes a horse more upright (with s.r.) and without can allows stretching more easily. But in a halter with line attached underneath usually cause the horses response to any vibration from underneath by going higher. When a halter is attached to one ring it simply pulls the neck inside and the horse counter bends/leans. 

Cavesons were initially used (a couple of hundred years ago) for work around a pillar, and for lateral flexibility (with draw reins attached with a rider). A caveson DOES teach a horse about working into a connection (and how it was progressively presented), and self carriage (vibrate the line). THen when the sr are attached to a bit it is not a strange/frightening concept to be worked into connection. It is progressive, the horse knows HOW to respond to hh, will stay up and open and less likely to have the bars impacted aggressively. It is a STEP in training.

Lunging is to present ideas progressive without the weight of the rider, this include contact, balance, change of gaits, lateral flexibility, steady tempo, etc. By first using the s.r. to the caveson and later to the bit that is allowed, methodically. 

And initially the s.r. may be even, but usually the inside is slightly shorter (1-2") to allow the beginning of lateral flexibility (Reiner Klimke, Egon von Neindorff, SRS does this amoung others). It underlies the idea of riding 'in position'/seeing the inside eyelashes and working into the outside reins. It is using what the horse needs, and there are some where the outside is shorter if their behavior/movement needs it. Because the horse should flex/bend lightly through the body on a circle (to increase engagement/flexibility lateral) oftentimes the inside sr will get too loose, connection is missing (more likely to happen in a bit that onto caveson), hence slightly shorter inside. Always remember this point of working on a curved line with side reins is to develop lateral flexibility/balance/being upright which helps with straightness, it is NOT to enforce longitudinal flexion or lowering in the neck.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

Do you have proof of any of that?


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## ligoleth (Sep 9, 2011)

What would be the proper use of side reigns be?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

Not debating the use of side reins, just your comment about would famous dressage trainers using uneven side reins.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

It isnt uncommon for side reins to be adjusted so the inside rein is slightly shorter than the outside one but I wouldnt have them tight enough to make a difference
The only use I have for them is that they give the horse a simulated idea of going forwards while feeling some slight resistance - either attached to the bit or to the cavesson
A lot of horses when first backed refuse to move forward and can even rear when they feel even the slightest pressure from the hands on the reins to the mouth coming from the region of their back - even when they've been well used to being led from the ground and understand the pressure there.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

jaydee said:


> It isnt uncommon for side reins to be adjusted so the inside rein is slightly shorter than the outside one but I wouldnt have them tight enough to make a difference
> The only use I have for them is that they give the horse a simulated idea of going forwards while feeling some slight resistance - either attached to the bit or to the cavesson
> A lot of horses when first backed refuse to move forward and can even rear when they feel even the slightest pressure from the hands on the reins to the mouth coming from the region of their back - even when they've been well used to being led from the ground and understand the pressure there.


 
There a lot of safer methods to correct that problem than uneven side reins. If the horse is trained correctly He will not refuse to move forward nor rear when they feel rein contact. That is a serious hole in the training or a medical problem.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

palogal said:


> There a lot of safer methods to correct that problem than uneven side reins. If the horse is trained correctly He will not refuse to move forward nor rear when they feel rein contact. That is a serious hole in the training or a medical problem.


 Go back and read my post
The uneven side reins are nothing to do with a horse being cautious about going forward but something that some people do to encourage a horse to flex to one side or the other with the action from above the horse and not from the side. How effective it is I cant say - you'd have to take that up with someone who does it.
As for some horses getting anxious when they feel pressure from a different place - when they first get a rider on their back - its a very different 'feel' for them than having pressure from on the ground. Most of my horses were shown in hand before being ridden, some as foals and they all understood pressure from the ground but some still worry when the direction of pressure comes from another location and there is no other way to replicate this than to use side reins attached to the surcingle or saddle. When you lead a horse its following your body language and cues when you're on top of the horse its a very different feel for them even when they fully understand the verbal cues off lunge work they can often be thrown when they cant 'see' the voice'
Small things like using side reins when lunging that dont do any harm (unless too tightly adjusted can make a very big difference to a less confident horse when its first backed
When you have broken as many horses as I have and experienced as many different attitudes from them then you can tell me how to do the job better because I have so far never had a failure so I cant have been doing it too wrong.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

Didn't say you were wrong. The varied methods on this board never cease to amaze me.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

palogal said:


> Didn't say you were wrong. The varied methods on this board never cease to amaze me.


 No offence taken
Just remember that we are all from different parts of the world, different ages and involved in different disciplines that can make a huge impact on the way you ride and how the horses are trained
I never knock anything new or new to me because you never know when you are likely to come across a horse where nothing seems to work and having a spare trick or three up your sleeve is never a bad thing in those situations


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## equitate (Dec 14, 2012)

Proof of what? Other than being with those men as well as thoroughly studying movement and tracking of horses? Von Neindorff shows the progression (from caveson to bit) on his dvd. As far as adjusting side reins for a hint of flexion (ie 1"-2")? That IS in the FN Manual, and I believe in RK's book as well. These are well accepted methods, taught in major riding schools in europe. Everything is reasoned, it is presented to students learning how to lunge, how to attach equipment, WHY to use methods and what value it has in training for the future.

The PREVENTION of refusing to go forward is why a connection is presented methodically. And then entire learning of lungeing methods (where to face (hand pointed to head, whip to croup etc, how to hold the line, gloves, the figure size, aids for transitions, etc) is an art as well. (But I dont think what the OP was asking about??)

It is not just wham-bang sr onto bit and demand longitudinal flexion or a lowered neck (the often seen application which often causes horses to go over).They are for a progression of teaching the horse to be limited by the outside rein, to be straighter, to start to engage and balance...not for the often seen longitudinal flex.


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## eeo11horse (Jun 22, 2012)

I realize in my question I wasn't very specific so let me give a little more detail. I'm really wondering not how to lunge with the sr and caves on etc but what using sr attached to say a saddle used with a caves on would do for the horse. Does it help them put on muscle in their top line? Does it help them learn how to collect and reach? Etc basically what does it do for them


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## equitate (Dec 14, 2012)

Lungeing with surcingle allows more choices then when the s.r. are attached to the saddle (esp saddles de jour which tend to only have short girths).

Can working steadily into a light connection help with the muscles which carry the top line/up/open/active? Yes, in trot because there is no telescoping with the gait there, they must not be made too short/compress the neck/etc. And the s.r. must be taken off at the end to allow horses to swing completely/relax/step through (cool down).

By reach to you mean seek the hand or take longer strides? With half halts, nice balance, the horse will learn to keep a connection on a BENDING line, because of that when the connection is removed they will reach for the bit. Can it help with the balance in longer more active strides? Yes if carefully done, but it is NOT just rushing the horse off its feet to do so.

Collection is amplitude/shortening of the stride because of thrust upward with the base of support in shortened. This is not the job of side reins.

What does lungeing do? It allows the horse to learn trust, develop balance, be exercised when they cannot be ridden, learn lateral flexibility, be prepared for work in hand, etc.


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## eeo11horse (Jun 22, 2012)

Thank you equitate that's what I was really after. I wanted to learn more about using a sucingle, sr, and caveson before I just jumped in and tried using one. I want to use it because when I lunge my horse it isn't benefitting him at all because he is taking choppy strides and is always hollow.


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## equitate (Dec 14, 2012)

How are you lungeing right now? Halter? Bridle? What are you doing to go/stop/allow him to work around you (walking or standing still/marking the sport)?


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## eeo11horse (Jun 22, 2012)

I use a halter and longe line. Right now I don't have much control over him with the halter and rope, I rely on voice commands and body language to cue stop, go, and transitions. He does really well with it but like I said earlier, he doesn't use himself at all.


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