# Your thoughts on Apache?



## apachewhitesox (Dec 9, 2010)

Ok so I got a couple of pictures after my ride today. To me he definitely looks like he has put some weight on. Don't know how easy that will be to tell in the pics though. I was just curious on how you think he looks, does he look like he has improved? His topline definitely needs work and I am working on that as I have just started riding him again. Here are the pics some older ones for comparison and some from today though he wouldn't stand still and the ground is uneven. Thanks


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## Can He Star (Mar 9, 2011)

love his makings. dw bout the ribs showing. it doesnt mean anything my tb can never seem to not show his ribs even though he is full of feed


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## Can He Star (Mar 9, 2011)

looks like a sweety


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## apachewhitesox (Dec 9, 2010)

His ribs do still show a little just not as much as before. Haha thats how he draws you in then BAM. Nah he is a sweety but only when he wants to be, he can be a right jerk sometimes.


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## Can He Star (Mar 9, 2011)

he is gorgeous


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## Can He Star (Mar 9, 2011)

there is a thread ive started for morning photos. apache should enter


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## apachewhitesox (Dec 9, 2010)

ok cool. Anyone else??


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## Can He Star (Mar 9, 2011)

um not yet . i dunno whether to turn it into a comp or just a place for photos. what do you think? 

also do you want to be friends??


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## apachewhitesox (Dec 9, 2010)

I don't have any pics to suit yet hehe. It could be a good comp. Yeah we can be friends.


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## Can He Star (Mar 9, 2011)

oh well . ok i turn it into a comp. 

one prob........ how do i judge? hey you can judge if u want to ???

ill send u a friend request


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## apachewhitesox (Dec 9, 2010)

maybe who is the shiniest or something. i'll judge if you want.


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## PintoTess (Aug 18, 2010)

He looks like he has nice weight now. ZOMG!! He now has a neck! His topline does need work so lots of long and low. Beautiful


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## apachewhitesox (Dec 9, 2010)

Haha thanks I knowI have a bit of work ahead of me. That is probably the first thing I noticed his neck still doesnt looks great but it doesn't look kind of yuck anymore.


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## Can He Star (Mar 9, 2011)

Ok you can judge


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

His neck looks 100x better. Wow!


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## apachewhitesox (Dec 9, 2010)

Thanks I am glad to hear other people see an improvement as well.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

He has put on weight and that is good. It looks like his hind feet have the heels cut too low and the angle of his hind foot is being trimmed to shallow an angle. He looks very sickle hocked which will put excessive pressure on his hocks wich appear round as opposed to large and flat. 

His front feet also look toe long, heel over short and appera almost to have heels that roll under the foot. 

He has a very low angle from Point of shoulder to elbow. This is not a horse who will pick his knees up over a fence if you jump him.. and with his sickle hocks I would not jump him. 

He is strong in his coupling between his back and croup but is a bit rough and over flat in the area. This conformation adds to the sickle hock issue. 

I like his neck and withers and shoulder.


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## apachewhitesox (Dec 9, 2010)

Thanks for the info. My farrier is going to see to him he is due for a trim. Also my farrier has been trying to fix the best he can another farriers bad work on his feet. He doesn't have the best feet as it is and as my farrier has pointed out to me (the farrier who was doing him last anyway) was just making them worse.


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## apachewhitesox (Dec 9, 2010)

OK I'm just curious, I am trying to learn all these conformation faults and such just to see if I can spot them myself and everything. Can a horse be sickle hocked in one leg? or in one leg worse then the other? If that makes sense. Thanks


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## New_image (Oct 27, 2007)

He certainly does look better in the last two photos, his neck in particular. He looks like a very sweet, relaxed horse. 

Conformation wise he appears to stand under himself/be sickle hocked. This is the first thing to stand out to me. From what I can see of his hooves, the farrier doesn't have him trimmed to "help" this matter at all. He should be more upright with less toe.


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## tempest (Jan 26, 2009)

It seems like there's something odd about the right hind leg. Maybe it's just me though.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

In the one photo, the right hind appears more sickle hocked than the left. Usually this is not the case but more often a case of the horse standing on uneven ground. 

Sickle hocks are usually a bilateral problem (but not always). A conformation shot on even ground with the horse set up properly would help a lot (front leg near the camera straight, front leg away from the camera back slightly, space to the knees; Rear leg closest to the camera straight, rear leg away from the camera slightly forward with space to the hocks).


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## apachewhitesox (Dec 9, 2010)

Thanks everyone. I am seeing what your all seeing with his right hind leg. I understand about getting proper photos on flat ground. I was looking last night and in almost every picture his right hind leg just seems to sit under him more then his other hind leg no matter where he is standing. I will try to get a more decent shot like you described if I can. As I said Apache is due for a trim. I will actually be discussing his feet more with my farrier when he comes because I am kind of worried about them. My farrier does make his feet look a lot better when he does them he tries get them more kind of up right. By the time he is finished his feet look tiny (not too the point of them being cut back to far or anything though). Within about two weeks after his feet being done one of his front feet tends to go back to what you see in the photos just not as bad. Then by the end of 7 weeks the rest start to look a bit like that. I'm going to be bringing this all up with my farrier when he comes out next.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

You may need to shoe him and you may need to reset the shoes every 5 weeks (as opposed to the typical 6 week schedule). 

When you trim a horse's feet (barefoot) they will very quickly go back to where they were and if that is not good, then shoes need to be put on. If he is not ridden a lot, plates are usually fine. Heeled shoes if he is ridden a lot. 

Seeing how the shoes wear will tell you a lot about your horse and his way of going. 

And yes, I know about the cost. That is why I learned how to shoe my own horses.


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## apachewhitesox (Dec 9, 2010)

Yes we were planning on talking to our farrier about putting shoes on him again when he comes. Especially since Apache is coming back into work. The reason he is barefoot at the moment is because the last farrier had put shoes on him that were too small. When they were taken off he could barely walk around for nearly two weeks, he had a big red line around the edge of his hoove on the bottom.


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## apachewhitesox (Dec 9, 2010)

Ok so I tried to take some better pictures this afternoon to match Elana's description. I know they aren't great but we have practically zilch flat ground there is always a hole/ditch somewhere. Apache was also not being very cooperative about how he had to stand. I hope these help a bit. The farrier is also definitely coming tomorrow morning so my mum will be able to talk to him then. It's just too bad I won't be home because my mum knows very little about horses there feet and what I wanted to talk to the farrier about.


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## Can He Star (Mar 9, 2011)

you are the official judge just so u no


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## apachewhitesox (Dec 9, 2010)

Ok cool my pictures won't count they are just there


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## Can He Star (Mar 9, 2011)

ok sounds good


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## apachewhitesox (Dec 9, 2010)

Ok farrier has been this morning and Apache now has shoes on his front feet. I'm pretty sure he said they were called them natural balance shoes. I was talking to him about Apache not picking his feet up properly and tripping quite often. I asked about putting shoes on again since he is coming back into work. He said these should help because there is a bit of weight at the toe that will incourage him to pick his feet up more. He mentioned that they should help with help with keeping him off his heels or something and so when he replaces his shoes he should be able to make him a little more upright each time. So I have my fingers crossed this will work. We're not sure but he was saying his feet might be so bad because only until a few years ago racehorses were done with their toes longer so there heels became flatter, this was apparently done to make the horse have a longer stride and make them faster. He said they just realised this just makes the horse slower and by the time they finished racing there heels are are finished too. When you compare Apache's feet to my other horses, the others heel grows kind of downwards whereas Apache's grow almost flat to the ground and the pressure just from him walking around in between farriers visits makes his heels stay bad. So hopefully these shoes will help.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Looking at the second set of photos, (from a camera phone I am guessing) I can say more. Your horse is ewe necked and a bit hammer headed. His over flat croup is not helping him either. 

The heels on his feet appear to be rolling under as opposed to supporting him, with his hind legs as bad as his fronts. His right hind leg is really "not right." The left hind is over straight thru the stifle and I suspect the right hind is as well, but the poor feet really don't help him at all. I am wondering if the issue is that his right hind leg is actually longer than his left hind leg (it happens in humans and dogs, why not in horses?). It is like that leg camps under because it cannot straighten because the other leg is shorter.... like it does not have enough 'room' to straighten out properly.

His left front appears to have the weight shifted to the outside of his foot and as a reult, the cannon does not appear clean (looks fluid filled). 

Has this horse ever foundered? It looks like his feet actually dish and I wonder if there are founder rings, seedy toes etc. 

Really looking at this horse I wonder how sound he will be throughout his life. He might be OK trail riding and as a lesson horse (for beginners) but I seriously doubt he has much of a future past that. 

Now.. that is based on his conformation. Conformation does not always dictate a horse's capability. Based on conformatin alone, Sea Biscuit, John Henry and Exterminator should not have been able to break the gate, let alone become the winning horses they became.


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## apachewhitesox (Dec 9, 2010)

I see what your talking about with his conformation. Hopefully we have taken a step in the right direction with helping his feet today. I definitely see what your talking about with his back legs they have always seemed off to me but i could never put my finger on it. He nearly always does have his right hind leg sitting under him if he has a choice about it. I'm not sure about the founder in the past but he definitely hasn't since I've had him. I was told he would be good for trail riding. I honestly have no idea for anything else. I did by him as a beginners lesson horse but I learnt the hard way he is too smart and dominant minded for a beginner.

Yeah sorry that is from a camera phone its all I have. Also what do you mean by hammer headed?


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

A hammer headed horse has his head stuck on is neck at a 90 degree angle as opposed to a graceful connection with flexibility. Hammer headed horses are also often Ewe necked. This conformation make it hard for the horse to shift his weight to the rear and work off his hind quarters. 

In the case of Apache's conformation, between his hind leg conformation and the flat croup, he will be very very difficult to get collected and working off his hind quarters. 

Your farrier should be able to tell you if your horse has foundered or has seedy toes (seedy toes, where the hoof wall separates from the sole is often, but not always, one of the results of founder). 

I doubt your horse is really "dominant." He is probably just untrained. Honestly, I have never met a horse that I would call 'dominant.' Most just have not been trained and have no idea what boundaries or good behavior is about (ha.. like lots of people! LOL). 

One of the things I wonder is if you stand behind him and he is standing with both hind feet in line with each other (IOW's when you stand to the side, the hind feet or even with each other and not one ahead of the other) if you notice either of his hips much lower that the other (or one point of buttock or point of croup lower than the other). His stance might be due to an injury suffered as a little guy (such as a broke or rotated pelvis). 

I am thinking that might be the answer. I had a cow calve once and the ligament that holds the pelvis together across the tip broke while she was calving. This ultimately allowed her entire pelvis to rotate so that she had a very prominant high hip on her left side and the top of the pelvis actually was about 3 inches ABOVE her back bone on the left.. while her hip and top of pelvis on the right was not even palapable. She could still walk and get up and down, but I decided it was smart to send her to the auction before she went down.. and so I did. I knew I would never breed her again and figured she would be seriously injured by other cows when she came inheat. Dairy cows that are no longer sound get sold for meat (in fact, most of the fast food restaruants are the buyers of used dairy cows.. but I digress). 

If Apache had the same sort of injury but not as severe or that has healed, he could have problems where his legs are not even from the top down.. sort of extending one hind leg and compressing the other. If it happened a long time ago.. even at birth, he has figured out how to compensate for it and 'get by.' 

Take a look and see. You may find answers there (or not).


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## apachewhitesox (Dec 9, 2010)

I will definitely go have a look tomorrow. My farrier hasn't said anything about foundering and he doesn't normally wait for me to ask he'll just tell me as soon as he sees it. 

As for the dominant thing. A lot of people have commented that he seems to have that way of mind. I honestly dont know. With his training other then being trained to race I don't know what sort of training he has had since then. Since I have had him I have done a lot of ground work with him and he has improved greatly on the ground with me. Not necessarily other people though. He just seems to have this air about him with other animals that says don't mess with me even aggressive mares don't mess with him. I think if a person handled him and didn't let him know they were boss he could become quite an aggressive horse over time. He always seems to think he is boss and he does what he wants, so you have to constantly remind him that your in charge. Even people he knows won't let him get away with anything he stills tests. I mean I think i have gotten a lot of respect from him over the last past 5 or so months. He knows I won't accept him not wanting to do something simply because he doesn't want to (pure laziness) and he still tests me at least twice everytime I do something with him and he finds different ways to test you everytime. Sorry got a bit off track there don't even know if that makes sense.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

I have never had a horse that never tests you. Actually, if he was off the track, he probably never bonded with a human being. I have known OTTB's that were not necessarily disobedient toward humans.. but more dismissive (if that makes sense). They were never given a chance to be around one person who really cared for them. 

I handled one such horse by the name of Tide's In. She was aloof.. not dangerous but not connected to people. She was not my horse but I was her part time care taker and I worked very hard to get that first nicker of recognition when I came to the barn. 

I have also handled horses that test the boundaries. Usually those horses, while not the most cooperative, were very smart (for horses). They made me a better horsewoman.


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## apachewhitesox (Dec 9, 2010)

Yes from what I know he was on the track until he was four and i got him when he was ten. From what his previous owner was saying it didn't sound like anyone really owned him for long, like he just kept getting sold. My boy just couldn't seem to care less whether a person gives him attention or not. The longer I've had him the more I've found he actully sometimes seems happy to see me, responds to his name, and even has come to me a couple of times. He has also called out to me a couple of times but I think thats just because he knew it was dinner time. He still looks like he doesn't necessarily enjoy the work sometimes. Just over the past 2-3 weeks maybe I think I have actually seen a big change in him towards me. He'll randomly come up to me in the paddock occassionally to say hello (he never did that before, barely acknowledged you came in), when I tie him up and brush him or I'm just holding him sometimes he will stand there and lick his mouth. He also lately almost seems eager to work sometimes (he is the laziest horse I have ever met). He still has his days though. I think this might be partially because I'm just about the only person who does anything with him. Almost everyone else hates him because they are scared of him or simply don't like his temperament. I would say Apache has definitely taught me a lot, especially when it comes to babying a horse if you babyed him you would get nowhere. His old owner actually told me he likes it when you talk to him in a baby voice. I tried it once to see his reaction and he just looked at me like I was a twit.


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## HannahFaith (Apr 27, 2011)

aww this little guy is cute! you can definitely see the improvement. good job =]


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## apachewhitesox (Dec 9, 2010)

Thanks hehe he isn't a little guy he is just shy of 16hh


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

I suggest that every time you come to the barn, present him with a few carrots. Not a lot.. just a few. Every time. 

I am going to anticpate that this horse will respond to that and at some point will start to carry on when he hears you come in the door. Just take it from an old horsewoman who has seen a good bit (much like Apache).


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## apachewhitesox (Dec 9, 2010)

haha thanks for the idea he is very much a gobble guts when he wants to be.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

The object is to make an association with you = good stuff. 

My Dad helped in a stable when he was 9 years old for a number of years (in the 1930's). The stable was owned by a guy who was in the Horse Cavalry. This guy was very tough.. but the horses, while thin, got the best care he could give (Cavalry style). Every horse was groomed every day and if the horses were not rented for riding, my Dad would take the horses out on a string. Yes. That is correct. A 9 year old boy on a mare would take 40 horses out on a string for exercise.. no matter what the weather.. for an hour at least. These horses were kept in Standing stalls and the business was renting them (livery). 

In the stable there was a horse named Jim Dandy. My Dad brought Jim (an othter wise difficult horse of nefarious breeding and background) carrots every day. Well the horse grew very attached to my Dad to the point where if someone had rented him to ride and Jim heard my Dad come on the property he would dump his rider and come and find my Dad.. who was just a skinny 9 year old kid. 

If Dad could build this loyalty in a Hack Horse for Hire in the 1930's you can do it with Atpache today in 2011. You just need a few carrots every time you come to the barn.


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## apachewhitesox (Dec 9, 2010)

haha cool yeah I knew what you meant by the carrots.


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