# How old should a stallion be before being bred?



## Chula (Aug 12, 2009)

I was recently lurking around on craigslist and stumbled upon an ad for a 1 1/2 year old colt up for stud! I was very shocked. They put pictures up of him, too. He is so tiny and still has a lot of development to do 
But this got me wondering, when is an appropriate age to breed a stallion? I would assume at least 3 or 4, right?


----------



## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Chula said:


> I was recently lurking around on craigslist and stumbled upon an ad for a 1 1/2 year old colt up for stud! I was very shocked. They put pictures up of him, too. He is so tiny and still has a lot of development to do
> But this got me wondering, when is an appropriate age to breed a stallion? I would assume at least 3 or 4, right?


 4 years is about right for 'maturity' you would say.......however, I'd be thinking the fella had better have proved himself in the ring and conformation wise before I ever decided to keep a guy intact, let alone having to deal with a stud......


----------



## Spotted (Sep 19, 2012)

2yrs could have a small book of mares. they might be just advertising for future bookings, it also depends on if he is interested in breeding or not. some don't mature until they are older. You would have to be careful he doesn't get ruined.


----------



## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Most are fully able to breed at 2. it would be a good time to start seein what he could produce especially if he is being shown. If he does really well you would be ahead of the game in the breeding business.
Especially since it would take at least 3 or 4 years before you start seein how well most of his offspring do.
I do not break any of my horses until they are 3 1/2 or 4. Why not breed 2 year olds if they are not being used? Shalom


----------



## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

I think the 'appropriate' age to breed anything, is after seeing how they mature. Noticeable flaws when young, might straighten out at maturity. Excellent conformation - or lack of it, should denote whether a horse might be breeding material.

I've seen a few very nasty looking two year olds, who turned out to be swans at five. Some horses and breeds, take longer to mature than others.

I don't necessarily think (though many do) that a horse must prove himself in the show ring, to be breed-worthy.

Lizzie


----------



## Curly_Horse_CMT (Jun 8, 2008)

I wouldn't even think about breeding a stud as young as that. No time to physically mature, prove himself, come into his own, ect.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

dbarabians said:


> Most are fully able to breed at 2. it would be a good time to start seein what he could produce especially if he is being shown. If he does really well you would be ahead of the game in the breeding business.
> Especially since it would take at least 3 or 4 years before you start seein how well most of his offspring do.
> I do not break any of my horses until they are 3 1/2 or 4. Why not breed 2 year olds if they are not being used? Shalom


Why not breed at 2yrs? Easy, because the horse probably hasn't even had a chance to prove himself at anything and when you do try to start him he will be harder to manage and train because he has been put over mares....it's not a good idea to do that in terms of manageability and you have no idea of what he will produce....
If you have a nice mature stud that is conformation wise very appealing with a good attitude and has proven himself in his given discipline then you have grounds to breed him.....if he's only two you could ruin him and create some awful off spring....that's my rant.....


----------



## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Muppet girl you have no idea what any stallion is going to produce until you breed him. that is the only way to prove any breeding animla.
How can you "ruin" a stallion? that statement is not logical.
Can you give me an example?
there is a mae that was awarded the War Mare award for distance she is 7 YO her son is 4. the mare was bred at 2 and she completed over 3,000 miles since she was 4. Breeding horses at young ages has no serious log term affects on their growth or soundness.
I am not saying I would do it but there are plenty of stallions that are bred during their 2 and 3years and compete and win.
We are not alking about humans here that mentally are not mautrue enough to handle it. Horses are guided by instinct. Period. Shalom


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

There are so many unwanted horses in this country at present that its way beyond time that some law was established whereby all stallions had to be passed as suitable sires and licenced as such.
Yes it is true that some mares & stallions that aren't perfect do produce offspring that are OK but its also true that a mare or stallion with a defect is far more likely to pass that on to their progeny
There are enough unwanted foals already out there whats the point in breeding from some cheap animal being sold on Craigslist?


----------



## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

dbarabians said:


> Muppet girl you have no idea what any stallion is going to produce until you breed him. that is the only way to prove any breeding animla.
> How can you "ruin" a stallion? that statement is not logical.
> Can you give me an example?
> there is a mae that was awarded the War Mare award for distance she is 7 YO her son is 4. the mare was bred at 2 and she completed over 3,000 miles since she was 4. Breeding horses at young ages has no serious log term affects on their growth or soundness.
> ...


 
I agree. 

I think its funny that no one has any qualms about jumping on a horses back at two and competing on it but they balk at breeding them.


----------



## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

jaydee said:


> There are so many unwanted horses in this country at present that its way beyond time that some law was established whereby all stallions had to be passed as suitable sires and licenced as such.
> Yes it is true that some mares & stallions that aren't perfect do produce offspring that are OK but its also true that a mare or stallion with a defect is far more likely to pass that on to their progeny
> There are enough unwanted foals already out there whats the point in breeding from some cheap animal being sold on Craigslist?


Because this is AMERICA. just because you might not want that horse someone else might. and I dont agree with you. If someone wants to breed their animal they should be allowed to. I will never agree to a breed warren in any breed.


----------



## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Ghostwind my like button will not work so I want to say that i agree 100% with your last 2 post. Shalom


----------



## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

dbarabians said:


> Muppet girl you have no idea what any stallion is going to produce until you breed him. that is the only way to prove any breeding animla.
> How can you "ruin" a stallion? that statement is not logical.
> Can you give me an example?
> there is a mae that was awarded the War Mare award for distance she is 7 YO her son is 4. the mare was bred at 2 and she completed over 3,000 miles since she was 4. Breeding horses at young ages has no serious log term affects on their growth or soundness.
> ...


You CAN absolutely ruin a 2yr old stud by letting it cover mares before you have let him prove what he can do. If you take an unbroken stud and let him cover mares you are asking for an unmanageable horse later on if you want to do anything with him other then breed him because you realized he was throwing duds with crooked legs and sway backs.....anyone who breeds an unproven stud just to roll the dice to see what they can get is dillusional. Yeah, let's just let him get his happy on and get real studdy and then perhaps we will break him In Later when he's a full blown stallion, and if that doesn't work let's just geld him and sell him as an unproven nobody because his owners put their own whims and fantasies before that of having a good realistic breeding strategy......by the way, you're talking away about a mare that was bred, we are talking about a stud, a whole different kettle of fish.....
Any good trainer that I know will first start a stud, if he's got good conformation and is athletic and manageable to ride and show....then they will breed him after he has proven that he is WORTHY of being bred....they don't just roll the dice and hope to have a good by-product without knowing what the stud can do....that's just very poor management....


----------



## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Also, do any of you actually maintain stallions and live cover mares with them? Do you understand how much stress and anxiety breeding can put on a stallion? Sorry, but breeding a two year old stud and breaking in a horse at two years old are two totally different things......
Backyard breeders like quantity over quality.....it should all require a license and screening to keep breeds honest and sound.....


----------



## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Muppet girl youa re talking about training a horse and temperament.
Many stallions are breeding and showing at the same time.
Ruining a stallion by allowing him to cover "too many" mares how exactly does that happen?
My stallion is in a pasture with 20 mares in adjoining pastures. Does he talk to them ? yes when i am handling him though his attention is on me and without using a stud chain. Just a normal rope halter. That is a result of training.
Will some studs be hard to handle? yes but that is atraining issue and respect not breeding "too many' mares. Shalom


----------



## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

Are you saying that stallions that are bred before being broke to ride are "ruined" for future riding? What about studs that go on to have careers after the breeding shed? My Arab was a stallion for 17 years before I got him and trained him for riding. Breeding certainly didn't "ruin" him in any way, shape or form.

A pony breeder I knew let her two year old stud cover a few mares to see what he would produce, thinking only a couple would take due to his young age. She's pleased as punch that all the mares he covered are in foal. Judging by her other stud and his progeny, I think she knows what she's doing. She makes breeding decisions based on conformation, temprament, and lines, not just ribbons.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Yes I do own a stallion and we do live cover only. This is my thrid stallion and my family has owned several more. We bred them at 2 before and during the show season. Stress and anxiety in the breeding shed or pen sure. When he is finished I ahve ridden them to round up cattle and bred another mare later that day. No problems so far. Shalom


----------



## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

dbarabians said:


> Muppet girl youa re talking about training a horse and temperament.
> Many stallions are breeding and showing at the same time.
> Ruining a stallion by allowing him to cover "too many" mares how exactly does that happen?
> My stallion is in a pasture with 20 mares in adjoining pastures. Does he talk to them ? yes when i am handling him though his attention is on me and without using a stud chain. Just a normal rope halter. That is a result of training.
> Will some studs be hard to handle? yes but that is atraining issue and respect not breeding "too many' mares. Shalom


Yes, you're right, what I am talking about is breeding studs BEFORE they have matured and managed to prove themselves to have excellent athletic ability at their given discipline. I would not roll the dice and let an unproven stud of two years old (heck,at two some horses are still going downhill in their top line and some stay that way! I wouldn't breed until I was darn sure I could produce something of quality). Yes, many stallions are breeding and showing, and that's most likely because he is WORTHY of keeping as a stud.....many horse owners and trainers will geld a horse as soon as they know he's not breeding stallion quality......who wants to deal with a not so good stud in their yard that's not going to be bred because it's just not that good....I know they'd all rather have a nice gelding instead of a so-so stallion......
Again, I reiterate- it should be licensed and controlled, there are too many hereditary flaws being passed around that are crippling and hurting horses because people allow mediocre unproven studs to breed before proving their worth, conformation wise and performance wise.


----------



## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

nikelodeon79 said:


> Are you saying that stallions that are bred before being broke to ride are "ruined" for future riding? What about studs that go on to have careers after the breeding shed? My Arab was a stallion for 17 years before I got him and trained him for riding. Breeding certainly didn't "ruin" him in any way, shape or form.
> 
> A pony breeder I knew let her two year old stud cover a few mares to see what he would produce, thinking only a couple would take due to his young age. She's pleased as punch that all the mares he covered are in foal. Judging by her other stud and his progeny, I think she knows what she's doing. She makes breeding decisions based on conformation, temprament, and lines, not just ribbons.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If you re read my posts I have mentioned conformation and temperment.....and conformation and temperment win ribbons.....do you think a horse with crooked legs and a sway back will be more athletically capable than a horse with straight legs and a strong back?.......didn't think so.....and I'm not talking about being ruined for future riding.....I'm talking about making informed choices and decisions and some people don't do that, they just see good conformation and bloodlines and breed a stud before he has matured.....I personally have never come across a professional trainer/stud owner who has looked at a two year old studs bloodlines and conformation and said 'yup, let's breed him' .....never


----------



## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Muppetgirl while i disagree with you i do however think you mean well.
Owning a stallion is a business and needs to be run like one. I would rather breed a 2 and 3 year old to find out if they were worthy of keeping intact than a 5 or 6 YO. time is money and if by 4 the colts are not up to par then i would have cut my expenses instead of at 8 or 9.
I don't think you are being anything but concerned. Your concerns are real and your passion for horses is very clear. I simply do not agree but thats OK. Shalom


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Ummm, I actually bred my 2 y.o. colt to an outstanding mare this year so I can see if he's going to keep his 'parts' past next year. He covered her once, then left immediately for saddle training, showed in his first show last weekend and won his classes......Yep, ruined for sure.


----------



## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

dbarabians said:


> Muppetgirl while i disagree with you i do however think you mean well.
> Owning a stallion is a business and needs to be run like one. I would rather breed a 2 and 3 year old to find out if they were worthy of keeping intact than a 5 or 6 YO. time is money and if by 4 the colts are not up to par then i would have cut my expenses instead of at 8 or 9.
> I don't think you are being anything but concerned. Your concerns are real and your passion for horses is very clear. I simply do not agree but thats OK. Shalom


Aha, now I see your point, and I SOMEWHAT disagree, I believe that if by two or three if a stud is proving to be not conformationaly sound or appealing he should be gelded to stop the passage of passing on hereditary flaws and he can be a nice gelding for someone, also if a stud is conformationaly appealing to the AND has talent in his given discipline(s) and would be an asset to the world of horses, then he should be allocated some mares of the same calibre to produce exceptional offspring.
Excuse my ignorance, but I have no idea what Shalom means....but Shalom back at ya:lol:


----------



## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Ummm, I actually bred my 2 y.o. colt to an outstanding mare this year so I can see if he's going to keep his 'parts' past next year. He covered her once, then left immediately for saddle training, showed in his first show last weekend and won his classes......Yep, ruined for sure.


Yeah, and what if he throws a baby with crooked legs? Yup, won his classes in his first show, great, that proves everything right? 
I'd be betting on that outstanding mare.....


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Muppetgirl said:


> Yeah, and what if he throws a baby with crooked legs? Yup, won his classes in his first show, great, that proves everything right?
> I'd be betting on that outstanding mare.....


A/ I am betting on that outstanding mare, and his conformation and both their temperaments. 

B/ Since I've been breeding longer than you've probably been alive, I'm counting on my ability to judge a good horse and not breed for crooked legs. Neither horse has bad legs in their history and that mare throws some exceptional foals. 

Based on your criteria, good conformation, ridability, temperament and having been measured by a widely accepted yardstick, judged under saddle at a show and at halter, then I'm not sure what more you want from him. 

If the foal does not measure up to some pretty exacting standards, if it's a colt it will be gelded and if a filly she'll just hang out in pasture until time to be saddle broken. I don't only judge phyical criteria, I am VERY strict on temper and trainablitity.

Your major argument was that the stallion would be RUINED. I call bull on that one.


----------



## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> A/ I am betting on that outstanding mare, and his conformation and both their temperaments.
> 
> B/ Since I've been breeding longer than you've probably been alive, I'm counting on my ability to judge a good horse and not breed for crooked legs. Neither horse has bad legs in their history and that mare throws some exceptional foals.
> 
> ...


Call Bull all you like.....say hi to him for me.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

GhostwindAppaloosa said:


> Because this is AMERICA. just because you might not want that horse someone else might. and I dont agree with you. If someone wants to breed their animal they should be allowed to. I will never agree to a breed warren in any breed.


 Its this attitude thats keeping the auction yards full of cheap rubbish horses that are making meat money prices because no one wants them - other than someone looking for a freebie. The cost of keeping a horse properly these days is so high you might as well keep a good one as a third rate one.
The slaughter yards are overflowing, Rescue centres are struggling to stay afloat and provide homes for all the unwanted horses already out there - these aren't essentially bad horses - they are horses that there aren't enough buyers for any more
Last year we watched a whole bunch of nice bred youngsters sell for meat prices to someone who deals in that trade because the breeder had to sell them and after months of advertising with no comers they just had to go for whatever they could get and to whoever would have them
Theres nothing wrong with producing quality horses to satisfy demand but indiscriminate producing of bad stock isnt going to do any breed any favours. People who care about horses should be doing everything they can to improve and maintain the species.
What has being AMERICA got to do with anything? I live here, I see what a bad state the markets in. Does America want a reputation for breeding crap horses for the slaughter yards of canada & mexico or does it want a reputation for breeding just enough good animals that will sell to good homes?


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

When nice horses are selling for prices like this (and less) is it actually worth breeding anything? Things are not getting any better - there are plenty more where this one came from and if no one buys them - no guesses for where they will end up
Open your eyes and get real.


----------



## rookie (May 14, 2012)

Its less about can he cover mares but should he cover mares. I know a few horses that are the result of the mare being left out with the yearling stud colt. So, at a year and a half he could sire a few. The issue of can versus should is something that is present no matter the age of the stallion. Just because he can cover does not mean he should cover. Its not going to physically damage him but if not handled correctly it could cause some behavioral issues in my opinion. At just under two he is still learning the rules. One of the big rules is you don't get to mount any horse you see. It might be a step back in his training. 

In the end though, can he breed, yes. Should he breed maybe or maybe not. Would I breed to him, heck no.


----------



## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

I would say at minimum, 4, depending on maturity. I would much prefer a horse be completely physically mature before they breed anything. This;

a) gives them a chance to finish growing, you see how the horse will end up, not just as a "teenager". I prefer to see finished height, build and how they mature mentally before breeding.

b) gives the opportunity to prove themselves under saddle, in the halter ring, etc.

if you own a stallion and choose to test breed him when young, that is up to you. I would not my self, but its personal choice.

As far as the "stop breeding, there are too many horses at slaughter" bandwagon, if the only people that bred made sure the temperment, conformation and breeding were fantastic on the mare and stallion before breeding, the horse population would be way down, and the prices and quality would be way up. Its the backyard breeders that throw a unhandlable stallion(not trained, poorly bred, badly put together) out with a herd of poor-mediocre mares and then dont know what to do with the offspring that cause the issue, I really dont think it has anything to do with the title of this thread.


----------



## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Muppetgirl said:


> Call Bull all you like.....say hi to him for me.


Well, I call bull also - pretty much on all your posts in this thread.

So...let's see YOUR breeding stock, and their progeny. I am curious as to how your breeding stock choices stack up with the criteria you have espoused...


----------



## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Faceman said:


> Well, I call bull also - pretty much on all your posts in this thread.
> 
> So...let's see YOUR breeding stock, and their progeny. I am curious as to how your breeding stock choices stack up with the criteria you have espoused...


Anyone who has any degree of common sense would not breed a good mare to an 'unknown, unproven' 2 year old stud' it's a waste of money, time and it's a potential risk of throwing mediocre foals......a majority of good horse people actually WANT to increase their chances of producing good foals.....and to do that you have to KNOW the stud you're breeding to and the mare you are having covered....sheesh it's just common sense.....

Call bull......he misses you.....


----------



## rbarlo32 (Aug 9, 2010)

By two is a horse/pony is going to be a stunner it will already be a stunner at two, at two you will have a very good idea of how the stallion is going to look fully mature, I lot of very good very experienced breeders up here run there two year old colts with a mare or two, Shetland ponies have to go through a VVE which is a where the stallion is check over by a vet to make sure everything about him correct which has helped a little, my stallion has the best temperment ever and he covered his first mare as a 3 year old, since then he has won his class both times he has been shown, champion once and reserve champion the second time, I backed him as a rising ten year old and I trust him enough that I will lets my 10 year old sister ride him by herself, and I can't say he was stressed covering his girls because he wasn't though they where pasture bred.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Faceman said:


> Well, I call bull also - pretty much on all your posts in this thread.
> 
> So...let's see YOUR breeding stock, and their progeny. I am curious as to how your breeding stock choices stack up with the criteria you have espoused...


I dont see why anyone has to breed horse to have an opinion
My grandfather bred horses, I worked for many years on a yard that bred horses and my husband & I have bred horses in the past, a huge amount of 'homework' was done to make sure that the results would be a good well made horse with a good mental attitude that someone would want to pay good money for
I'd actually rather see the results of indiscriminate breeding from poor quality mares to 'unknown' stallions - what sort of quality are they? Have they made good riding horses? Did they actually sell for enough money to make the whole breeding venture worthwhile? 
Or do they just about bring in enough profit (minimum work and money put into them) when sold at an auction for whatever they make?


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

One thing that seems to keep coming up in this thread is, "2 year old stallion out running with a bunch of mares or a mare". Maybe it's my Arabian breeding background but I don't know ANYONE who just tosses a stallion out with the mare. Pasture breeding is just too risky for BOTH horses, IMO. 

Except for the very first breedings, I normally will collect the stallion and then carry it over to the mare for insemination. I will only hand breed the stallion and mare if I am dead certain of both temperaments and know beyond any doubt that the mare will not kick or harm the stallion and vice versa. 

When hand breeding, the stallion is allowed to talk and bow up and act like a stallion but must watch his ground manners at all times. If at any time he is less than attentive, obedient and respectful, I walk away from the mare and give him a chance to think about it. When I have his attention again, then we'll approach again, and again and again, until he gets it. He is never allowed to mount until I say, "UP" and when I say, "OFF" he dismounts and walks away. This is all part of training him to be a good stallion and easily handlable when he's older. 

My stallions are not allowed to bow up, talk to mares or act in any way other than respectful and obedient at all times when not breeding. They all know what, "NO Talking" means and if they don't behave, they all know what Vicks is for. 

The circular argument of not breeding to an unknown, unproven stallion is just that. How is a stallion to become proven if not bred, at the very least to the owner's mares? Somebody has to take the chance sometime. It's why stallion owners give incentives to mare owners and nominate their stallions to various programs, to make them attractive enough that someone will use them until their first babies are old enough to show and make names for themselves.


----------



## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

unethical horse breeders - Google Search

Sounds familiar.....


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Siiiiigh, I think I smell PETA


----------



## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> One thing that seems to keep coming up in this thread is, "2 year old stallion out running with a bunch of mares or a mare". Maybe it's my Arabian breeding background but I don't know ANYONE who just tosses a stallion out with the mare. Pasture breeding is just too risky for BOTH horses, IMO.
> 
> Except for the very first breedings, I normally will collect the stallion and then carry it over to the mare for insemination. I will only hand breed the stallion and mare if I am dead certain of both temperaments and know beyond any doubt that the mare will not kick or harm the stallion and vice versa.
> 
> ...


Nope, I'm not talking about throwing a two year old stud out with a bunch of mares....that's really poor management.
What I am talking about is people who think their two year old is the cats *** and start letting it cover mares just for giggles....also I personally believe that if you don't need to take a chance, then don't take it.....especially with today's market.....there are plenty of nice horses out there right now.....why flood the market even more, especially with mediocre stock....
Every breeder would like to think they have the best of the best.....it's not true, no horse is perfect and it shows in nearly every breed out there.....
I'm still on the band wagon for regulating and scoring breeding stallions and mares.....and breeding two year olds is to me just jumping the gun......


----------



## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Siiiiigh, I think I smell PETA


No NO NO NO PETA here! I own fur and come from a family of avid hunters - 
I don't think it's 'cruel' to let a two year old breed.....what I think is it opens a whole can of ethical worms......


----------



## rbarlo32 (Aug 9, 2010)

Running a stallion with his pasture is not bad management, most are closely monitored and it is the only way Shetlands have ever been bred up here is Shetland apart from the odd first timer girl who will be hand bred to make sure the stallion covers her.


----------



## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

rbarlo32 said:


> Running a stallion with his pasture is not bad management, most are closely monitored and it is the only way Shetlands have ever been bred up here is Shetland apart from the odd first timer girl who will be hand bred to make sure the stallion covers her.


Running a two year old stud in a pasture of mares is bad management....running a PROVEN stud (who has proven more than just having a good conformation) that is of a mature age with good quality mares is good management.....


----------



## MyLittlePonies (Mar 15, 2011)

The only thing I concider is when a stallion covers his first actual mare he will think about them. It doesn't mean he can't be managed. Management comes with training. That's how you find out if he's good minded in the breeding shed. There are plenty of stallion owners who cover 1-5 mares for the first time and show that very same year just to see what he will produce. I see it a lot in the quarters and paints alone. My stallion has done it as a two and three year old, but I didn't have him at the time. It all depends on the horse on whether he can handle mares and a phantom or one or the other. But I think the horse should at least be broke so he realizes he has a job afterwards.


----------



## Britt (Apr 15, 2008)

A stallion isn't 'proven' by his own accomplishments, he's proven by his offsprings accomplishments. His own accomplishments are just the 'icing on the cake'.


----------



## wetrain17 (May 25, 2011)

There is a big difference in your back yard "breeders" and reputable breeders. Would I breed a mare to a 2yr old I find on craigslist who is owned by someone who thought it would be fun to breed and make some money off the horse, who has NO idea what color their horse is let alone know about passing on genes? NO. Would I breed my mare to a 2 yr old who is owned by someone who knows about good conformation, passing on genes, and can answer any questions I my have? YES. 

Age of the stallion isnt going to matter much to me if I know where the horse came from (farm and pedigree)


----------



## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

muppetgirl - why does your agrument always change.
first it was because it would ruin the horse
second is the management 
now its unethical

now i do not agree with someone else telling someone they can or cannot breed.. thats against the american way, of being able to make your own decisions.we are the land of the free ...

now i do not think it would hurt having some sort of limit as to how many offspring can be breed a year per each breeder. that way there is some sort of restriction.

i do not find it bad to breed for slaughter either. we breed other livestock for slaughter why are horses different?? just because a large portion of people make them pets?? because most americans do not eat it?? what makes it so wrong to slaughter horses for meat??

as for stallions as young as 2 covering oh yes they can. but again its all in the training in how they are handled and trained that will make them a good member in society later on. that is not the horses fault but the owners!!


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Britt said:


> A stallion isn't 'proven' by his own accomplishments, he's proven by his offsprings accomplishments. His own accomplishments are just the 'icing on the cake'.


 Not quite right 
A racing stallion will be put to stud once he's proven himself to be a winner on the track - up till then he's just another TB. If he's been succesful he will earn huge amounts of cash for his owners
Many showjumping stallions have the same background - people will keep them entire if they have the breeding form their parentage and look promising but the real money to be made from them comes after they have proven themselves.
Still doesn't guarantee you will get a winner but you do have a better chance of success
A lot depends on the market you are aiming at - low level low priced riding horses to top of the range competition/show animals
The difference is huge as is the way you manage the breeding process.


----------



## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

kait18 said:


> muppetgirl - why does your agrument always change.
> first it was because it would ruin the horse
> second is the management
> now its unethical
> ...


What do you mean 'my argument always changes' its a little more complex than just saying something is ok to do because 'that is the American way' sheesh give me a break. Apparantly eating fast food is the 'American way' too according to outside and inside perspectives regarding American culture.....FAT lot of good that has done the vast number of American children suffering with obesity and diabetes.....just because youre free to do somethjng doesnt mean its in the best interests of yourself or everyone else involved.....breeding horses is far more complex than just one simple question posted on a forum and many good conversations are diverse are require a broad insight......as far as breeding horses for slaughter, I have no problem with that, in fact i never even mentioned horse slaughter????? .it seems because I disagree with someones breeding practises I get the PETA label slapped on me....thats a good way to defend yourself and justify what you see as fit practises....I could label you but i choose not too because I dont know you....
If youre a risk taker thats fine, but think carefully before you start messing in the gene pool....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Also of note: yes a limit on breeding numbers would make more people take pause and make better choices if they only have a limited amount they could breed.....don't want to waste a few opportunities.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## rbarlo32 (Aug 9, 2010)

Pasture breeding doesn't meen poor quality of mares or a bad stallion, it is just the way they have been breed in shetland and a two year old shetland can have already proven itself in the show ring as mostly shetlands are only shown inhand.


----------



## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

Muppetgirl said:


> What do you mean 'my argument always changes' its a little more complex than just saying something is ok to do because 'that is the American way' sheesh give me a break. Apparantly eating fast food is the 'American way' too according to outside and inside perspectives regarding American culture.....FAT lot of good that has done the vast number of American children suffering with obesity and diabetes.....just because youre free to do somethjng doesnt mean its in the best interests of yourself or everyone else involved.....breeding horses is far more complex than just one simple question posted on a forum and many good conversations are diverse are require a broad insight......as far as breeding horses for slaughter, I have no problem with that, in fact i never even mentioned horse slaughter????? .it seems because I disagree with someones breeding practises I get the PETA label slapped on me....thats a good way to defend yourself and justify what you see as fit practises....I could label you but i choose not too because I dont know you....
> If youre a risk taker thats fine, but think carefully before you start messing in the gene pool....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


yes but your argument went from one reason to a whole lot. where as everyone hear stats they agree with the conformation,temperment, and qualitiy bred animal but they also do there homework before breeding. they dont just breed to breed they breed from lines they know, and have a good idea of what will come. different experiences in this field is what makes or breaks it in success outcomes. also what classifies as a byb is also up to debate. other than the common sense that they are breeding just to breed instead of quality

as for american way, you can also throw in the abortion debates. its someones choice to get one but others are trying to take away there rights in having a choice to decide what happens to themselves. 
the more regulation we put on things the more it hinders the actual law abiding citizens in that field. 

i agree there is an over populated horse industry at the moment. but i also think its not purely because of over breeding or breeding of underqualified horses even though that does play a toll. i think its because of the slaughter industry in the US going to nothing and having no source of getting rid of horses(for lack of better words) other then being shipped over the border. which is equivalent to less horses being slaughtered daily due to travel costs. if the slaughter houses were still up and going in the US then there would have been far less horses when the economy crashed and there wouldn't be so much "unwanted horses" today


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I said PETA because no matter what, everyone but you is wrong, according to you. First it ruins the stallion, several of us give examples of how it does not, so then it's a crime and unethical to breed him because he's unproven, but you won't give any way for him to get proven, and lastly because he's 2, it's just plain wrong according to YOU. You are one of those people who are gracious enough to allow other people to have any opinion they like, so long as it's yours. 

No matter what has been said here, it's wrong if it doesn't agree with YOU. Not only is it wrong but we, who are so wrong and thus unethical in YOUR eyes, must acknowlege our wrong doing, repent and come around to your way of thinking and acknowlege YOUR vast superiority of thought and ethics. Sorry, I only bow down to God. 

No one's experience or lifetime breeding of horses, using, showing, winning or not counts in your eyes, we are all wrong. Sorry, I don't buy it and don't accept your judgement. I don't breed anything I'm not able to keep if need be. As long as I am willing and able to support what I breed, the rest of it, truly, is none of your business.


----------



## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

rbarlo32 said:


> Pasture breeding doesn't meen poor quality of mares or a bad stallion, it is just the way they have been breed in shetland and a two year old shetland can have already proven itself in the show ring as mostly shetlands are only shown inhand.


Arrggh! I DIDN'T SAY that pasture breeding was the wrong thing to do.....what I am trying to say is that breeding poor quality animals or animals who are far too young to have any kind of portfolio is bad management, I don't care if it's in hand breeding, pasture breeding, AI or on the moon!


----------



## rbarlo32 (Aug 9, 2010)

And I said in the Shetland pony breed it is pervectly possible for a two year old to have many championships under their belt as Shetland are on the most part shown in hand and yes I know it is different for the different breeds.


----------



## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Muppetgirl said:


> Anyone who has any degree of common sense would not breed a good mare to an 'unknown, unproven' 2 year old stud' it's a waste of money, time and it's a potential risk of throwing mediocre foals......a majority of good horse people actually WANT to increase their chances of producing good foals.....and to do that you have to KNOW the stud you're breeding to and the mare you are having covered....sheesh it's just common sense.....
> 
> Call bull......he misses you.....


I asked you a question...how about an answer? Let's see your breeding stock and their progeny. There is no need to evade the question. If you are going to constantly state how horses should be bred, then let's see your results...


----------



## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I said PETA because no matter what, everyone but you is wrong, according to you. First it ruins the stallion, several of us give examples of how it does not, so then it's a crime and unethical to breed him because he's unproven, but you won't give any way for him to get proven, and lastly because he's 2, it's just plain wrong according to YOU. You are one of those people who are gracious enough to allow other people to have any opinion they like, so long as it's yours.
> 
> No matter what has been said here, it's wrong if it doesn't agree with YOU. Not only is it wrong but we, who are so wrong and thus unethical in YOUR eyes, must acknowlege our wrong doing, repent and come around to your way of thinking and acknowlege YOUR vast superiority of thought and ethics. Sorry, I only bow down to God.
> 
> No one's experience or lifetime breeding of horses, using, showing, winning or not counts in your eyes, we are all wrong. Sorry, I don't buy it and don't accept your judgement. I don't breed anything I'm not able to keep if need be. As long as I am willing and able to support what I breed, the rest of it, truly, is none of your business.


Nope, again you are tarring me....I am entitled to my opinion and if it doesn't match yours and a few select others then I am the one in the wrong.......do some reading outside of your own bubble and you might find that I am not the only person who feels the way I do.....
By the way, I never asked you to acknowledge anything.......
This 'discussion' goes a lot broader than just breeding a two year old and you know it, it's not just black and white thinking.....
Call me PETA if you like, but there are world class breeders out there who never have to put a horse on a meat truck because their horses are bred properly for a specific purpose in a healthy market......and they're not having to geld eight year olds because they had a good plan......
I have nothing to do with PETA and if you look at some of my previous posts on different threads you will see that I have made fun of the PETA activists.

Don't tar me if you can't open up a broader dialogue without name calling because you just know what you know because you've bred some horses......not everyone thinks like you do.


----------



## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Faceman said:


> I asked you a question...how about an answer? Let's see your breeding stock and their progeny. There is no need to evade the question. If you are going to constantly state how horses should be bred, then let's see your results...


You don't need to own breeding stock and breed horses to have knowledge about it.....I'm not evading, I just didn't see your question as pertinent?? Just because you breed horses doesn't make your opinion better than someone else's......I for sure don't have breeding stock, and I for sure don't claim to know everything, but I do claim to stand by my opinion......let's see your results? Let's see what you've done? Wheres the progeny you've produced? What have they achieved? 
Also, you better write a detailed report on each horse, and a detailed report on the stud and mare, and their lines......also do you have references as a quality breeder who has bred impeccable, sound horses of a willing temperment?
Because, that's what matters to me.......


----------



## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

rbarlo32 said:


> And I said in the Shetland pony breed it is pervectly possible for a two year old to have many championships under their belt as Shetland are on the most part shown in hand and yes I know it is different for the different breeds.


Yes, I'm talking more of the industries I'm familiar with, as this is my experience. I have never been inside the Shetland world, although it must be quite a bit different than the TB world or the WB world.


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Muppetgirl said:


> Nope, again you are tarring me....I am entitled to my opinion and if it doesn't match yours and a few select others then I am the one in the wrong.......do some reading outside of your own bubble and you might find that I am not the only person who feels the way I do.....
> By the way, I never asked you to acknowledge anything.......
> This 'discussion' goes a lot broader than just breeding a two year old and you know it, it's not just black and white thinking.....
> Call me PETA if you like, but there are world class breeders out there who never have to put a horse on a meat truck because their horses are bred properly for a specific purpose in a healthy market......and they're not having to geld eight year olds because they had a good plan......
> ...


 
#1 - I haven't said you are wrong, you are telling me that I am. 

#2 - I am aware of a lot of people who have their own thoughts and they are welcome to them, I don't agree and since I'm paying my own bills, I don't need their (or your) approval to continue. 

#3 - I've already stated I breed for conformation, athleticism and temperament, my chosen disciplines are Western Pleasure, Trail, Western Riding and Halter. If those specific purposes aren't your cup of tea, that's fine, but it's what I breed for and like. 

#4 - As for gelding 8 year olds, I'm guessing you're referring to your other thread in which I talk about gelding a 7 year old and selling him as a child's horse. Marq was at an auction and led by his elderly owner. He was 100 lbs underweight but you could still see his excellent structure and the careful way he stayed out of his owner's space made me sit up and take notice. As I said, I found him gorgeous even though skinny but I was just spectating. They were having a hard time getting an opening bid on him and I thought that was a shame, so I stuck my hand in the air to see if someone would want to bid against me. No one did, so I bought, in my husband's words, "That skinny, underweight, shrimp of a stallion.". I already had a perfectly good stallion and didn't need another one but there was something about him. I brought him home, fed him up, gelded him, trained him a little, rode him in a couple of parades and out on a couple of big trail rides and then put a big price tag on him. 

I didn't have to geld him but I thought it best for him and would give him more opportunities than being a small stature stallion. His owner was grateful, she was going under and I am grateful to have gotten such a lovely horse. His new owner is extremely grateful, Marq is her best friend. 

I don't HAVE to geld anything, but I will geld anything I decide it's a better decision than leaving a stallion. There's no need to keep a stallion who has to live a more isolated life and not let him be social as he can be as a gelding, if he's not going to be used. That's not a reflection on quality, it's a reflection on the economy. 

#5 - I never called you PETA, I stated I smelled PETA or I could have said a troll just as easily, they both live to stir up trouble. I'm not tarring you with any brush, rather you are showing a shoe fits you and you want to wear it. 

By the way, I don't wear fur and don't like it, so that's got nothing to do with being a horse breeder.


----------



## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Muppetgirl said:


> You don't need to own breeding stock and breed horses to have knowledge about it.....I'm not evading, I just didn't see your question as pertinent?? Just because you breed horses doesn't make your opinion better than someone else's......I for sure don't have breeding stock, and I for sure don't claim to know everything, but I do claim to stand by my opinion......let's see your results? Let's see what you've done? Wheres the progeny you've produced? What have they achieved?
> Also, you better write a detailed report on each horse, and a detailed report on the stud and mare, and their lines......also do you have references as a quality breeder who has bred impeccable, sound horses of a willing temperment?
> Because, that's what matters to me.......


Oh yeah, my question is pertinent - and we breeders knew the answer already - the question might as well have been rhetorical.

You have no breeding experience, thus no breeding expertise, and obviously no idea what you are talking about.

I always get a chuckle out of armchair/internet experts with no experience that try to preach how to breed. Some of the people you are arguing with here have forgotten more about breeding than you will ever know.

The theories you espouse are theories to improve the odds - and that is all they are. What you fail to understand is the ONLY valid test of the quality of a stallion is his production. A good pedigree and show record improve the odds he will produce well, but there have been a ton of stallions, while mediocre themselves, have been great producers, and a ton of stallions, while great themselves, have been poor producers.

I can't even begin to address how absurd some of your statements are - there are so many of them. But the one that jumps out at me is making a horse unmanageable by breeding him at 2. In the first place, managing stallions is about as hard as walking and chewing gum at the same time for those that know what the heck they are doing, and in the second place, I have yet to see a horse become "unmanageable" by breeding...some need to be gelded because they are unmanageable (John Henry comes to mind), but that has NOTHING to do with whether they have covered a mare or not. For those horses, testosterone is the issue - not ejaculation...


----------



## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> #1 - I haven't said you are wrong, you are telling me that I am.
> 
> #2 - I am aware of a lot of people who have their own thoughts and they are welcome to them, I don't agree and since I'm paying my own bills, I don't need their (or your) approval to continue.
> 
> ...


Haha I didn't refer to my other thread at all.....I just went back and read your post on there.....well yes I guess the shoe fits you too.....
I've read what you breed for, and that's good.....
Well considering only myself and a couple of others were posting on this thread and you say you smell PETA then who were you referring too? 

Really, you are coming across as very passive aggressive and defensive......
I like the bullet points, being heard is important.....

Clap, clap, clap.....

Yawn.....


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Faceman - Amen, preach it bro'!


----------



## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

Hmmm....



Muppetgirl said:


> <snipped> the fella had better have proved himself in the ring and conformation wise before I ever decided to keep a guy intact, let alone having to deal with a stud......


I don't personally think that show ring winnings are a certain criteria for breeding. There are many horse breeders whose horses never seen a show ring but they are proven bloodlines and real working horses with solid conformation and good minds.. This, most times, comes from generations of breeding and not some judges opinion after 3 minutes in the ring.

Next argument:



Muppetgirl said:


> <snipped> ... he will be harder to manage and train because he has been put over mares....it's not a good idea to do that in terms of manageability.... <snipped>
> 
> and
> 
> < snipped >If you take an unbroken stud and let him cover mares you are asking for an unmanageable horse later on if you want to do anything with him other then breed him... <snipped>


Bull. Stallions do not become harder to manage because they cover mares .. they become harder to manage because of lack of training.

Next argument:



Muppetgirl said:


> Also, do any of you actually maintain stallions and live cover mares with them? Do you understand how much stress and anxiety breeding can put on a stallion?


All over the world. Stallions running with bands of mares specifically picked for them. Then in the off season, running together... yup ... stallions running together, like real horses.

Next:



Muppetgirl said:


> Yeah, and what if he throws a baby with crooked legs?


There are proven show horses out there with glaring conformation flaws .. and even good stallions can throw a baby with crooked legs.



Muppetgirl said:


> What do you mean 'my argument always changes' its a little more complex than just saying something is ok to do because 'that is the American way' sheesh give me a break.


Let me see if I can break this down for you. 

*The American way* is to give people the right to make their own decisions - right or wrong - within the law. We can't - nor should we - regulate everything.. 

"I don't have to agree with your decision, but I'll defend your right to make it."

and then finally:



Muppetgirl said:


> ........I am entitled to my opinion and if it doesn't match yours and a few select others then I am the one in the wrong...


EXACTLY! YOU have a right to your opinion .... as do OTHERS that don't agree with YOU .... You have a right to manage your horses YOUR way and other people have the right to do it THEIR way ... whether you agree or not.

*The American Way.*


----------



## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Faceman said:


> Oh yeah, my question is pertinent - and we breeders knew the answer already - the question might as well have been rhetorical.
> 
> You have no breeding experience, thus no breeding expertise, and obviously no idea what you are talking about.
> 
> ...


You didn't answer my question.......
I hear all you're saying, but as far as I can see, you are the only forum philosopher here.....I am entitled to my opinion, whether or not you agree I could care less.....
Answer my question from my previous post.....let's see your success....I'm willing to admit that you don't have to be a breeder to have knowledge about it....And many would agree.....You don't, so prove it.....
Yeah..... Keep preaching.....
This is all a very old school attitude and way of thinking.....


----------



## rbarlo32 (Aug 9, 2010)

You can have you own opinion but until you actually start breeding then you don't even scratch the surface on the knowledge you gain from years and years of trying to produce the best possible horses then you opinion is uneducated as there is only so much you learn from reading.

On the unmanageble point my neighbour who has been breeding since before my parents where born keeps telling my to give my randy colt a mare and it will settle him down, off course I didn't as I don't have any mares that he will cross well with her is going through his stallion test and being sold.


----------



## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Muppetgirl said:


> You didn't answer my question.......
> I hear all you're saying, but as far as I can see, you are the only forum philosopher here.....I am entitled to my opinion, whether or not you agree I could care less.....
> Answer my question from my previous post.....let's see your success....I'm willing to admit that you don't have to be a breeder to have knowledge about it....And many would agree.....You don't, so prove it.....
> Yeah..... Keep preaching.....
> This is all a very old school attitude and way of thinking.....


What opinion you have is only a lay opinion (at best), and even that is likely based upon the TB industry, if references you hatve made in other posts are correct, which is THE texbook example of the poorest, most irresponsible breeding there is.

If you want to qualify your opinions as lay opinions, I have no problem with that. But without that qualification, you have absolutely zero credibility...other than to be argumentative and confrontational.

The proper way for you to post on breeding topics would be "I have no experience in breeding, but in my opinion...", and then you wouldn't encounter so many objections to your posts from professional breeders that know what they are talking about...


----------



## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Lots of big breeders will.breed a colt at two. When he competes as a three or four year old he already has offspring ready to show right behind him so his name is always there in the ring. 
It's worked for alot of people.


----------



## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

texasgal said:


> Bull. Stallions do not become harder to manage because they cover mares .. they become harder to manage because of lack of training.



This. Both of my boys have been EXCEPTIONAALLY better behaved around mares once they were socialized with them. Raging hormonal retards when they weren't.


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

TexasGal, you're absolutely correct about working stock being VERY proven and provable. I use the show ring because that's MY point of reference and where I "work" but a working horse is totally proven in my book. As are "Just Trail Horses", that are only ridden out on the trail, not in show ring trail classes. Those are some of the best footed, natured and dependable horses there are, and breeding to "Just a Trail Horse" can give you some fine working stock. 

WSA, you are right on the money. 

Muppetgirl, I think you need to go out and work for a breeder you approve of, please choose someone where you can experience every facet of breeding i.e. AI, Collection, Transportation, ET, Recips, Frozen, Hand and Pasture breeding, and then when you've spent a lifetime in the industry come back and tell how you feel then. We'll listen, we've given you the courtesy of listening and responding to your confrontational posts, and we've actually given you some pretty good life experience information here. We'll listen even better when we're actually talking to a peer.


----------



## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

WSArabians said:


> This. Both of my boys have been EXCEPTIONAALLY better behaved around mares once they were socialized with them. Raging hormonal retards when they weren't.


Ain't it amazing how well behaved a stallion is when he fears a SECOND good butt kicking from a mare? Being around horses for 55 years, and a breeder for 20, I read body language pretty good, but even a novice can read a stallion saying "yes, dear"...:rofl:


----------



## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

There is no right or wrong way to post a question....

We disagree..lets atleast agree to that...........


----------



## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

There is no right or wrong way to post a question....

We disagree..lets atleast agree to that...........


----------



## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Faceman said:


> Ain't it amazing how well behaved a stallion is when he fears a SECOND good butt kicking from a mare? Being around horses for 55 years, and a breeder for 20, I read body language pretty good, but even a novice can read a stallion saying "yes, dear"...:rofl:


Haha yup! My six year old (avatar) was never socialized and he was a roaring "you're getting laid NOW" stallion. Now, he romances. Now he's like "Hey, pretty lady, I like your tail. So...?"
Mares can work magic.


----------



## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Muppetgirl said:


> There is no right or wrong way to post a question....
> 
> We disagree..lets atleast agree to that...........


There was nothing wrong with the question posed in the OP. It is a good question that comes up once in a while. There is a lot of disagreement among professional breeders. I stopped breeding 8 years ago, but I don't like breeding 2 year olds...if I wanted to test a stallion I waited till he was 3 because they aren't mature at 2 and I can better make an assessment of their abilities and potential to make an intelligent decision whether to geld or test them when they are 3. But I don't disagree with testing them when they are 2.

This is a cart before the horse type of situation - which people that haven't bred don't understand...no reason they should. When you put a colt on the ground, you have to make an initial decision - geld or if you see stallion potential hold off and see how he matures. Then, when he is 2 (or 3 in my case) you have to make another decision - geld or test. You test by breeding him and doing a couple of small shows (if you show). If he tests well and produces a good marketable filly or colt, and shows well (again, if you show) then you invest money in training and showing and marketing to create a demand for his service. Unlike backyard breeders, professional breeders are in the game to make money - not that any of us get rich from breeding, but we like to make money nonetheless. It makes no sense (at least to most of us) to invest a lot of money in a colt if he isn't going to produce quality - far better to geld him, and train him to the level where you can sell him. No matter how closely we study and become "experts" at pedigrees and bloodlines, there is never a guaranty that a colt, no matter how great he looks and performs, is so true to his breeding that he will breed true...some stallions (and some mares) simply do not breed true. So...think of the test breed as the horse, and the training and showing as the cart (which is expensive), and you hopefully can see why you don't want to put the cart before the horse.

I realize that the mantra commonly seen on these horse forums is "what has he done?", but that mantra, when spoken, immediately identifies (to experienced breeders) either a non-breeder or novice breeder. It is both practical and logical to breed a young horse once or twice to see what he is going to throw so you don't spend money on a mediocre stallion that really should be gelded...


----------



## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Faceman said:


> There was nothing wrong with the question posed in the OP. It is a good question that comes up once in a while. There is a lot of disagreement among professional breeders. I stopped breeding 8 years ago, but I don't like breeding 2 year olds...if I wanted to test a stallion I waited till he was 3 because they aren't mature at 2 and I can better make an assessment of their abilities and potential to make an intelligent decision whether to geld or test them when they are 3. But I don't disagree with testing them when they are 2.
> 
> This is a cart before the horse type of situation - which people that haven't bred don't understand...no reason they should. When you put a colt on the ground, you have to make an initial decision - geld or if you see stallion potential hold off and see how he matures. Then, when he is 2 (or 3 in my case) you have to make another decision - geld or test. You test by breeding him and doing a couple of small shows (if you show). If he tests well and produces a good marketable filly or colt, and shows well (again, if you show) then you invest money in training and showing and marketing to create a demand for his service. Unlike backyard breeders, professional breeders are in the game to make money - not that any of us get rich from breeding, but we like to make money nonetheless. It makes no sense (at least to most of us) to invest a lot of money in a colt if he isn't going to produce quality - far better to geld him, and train him to the level where you can sell him. No matter how closely we study and become "experts" at pedigrees and bloodlines, there is never a guaranty that a colt, no matter how great he looks and performs, is so true to his breeding that he will breed true...some stallions (and some mares) simply do not breed true. So...think of the test breed as the horse, and the training and showing as the cart (which is expensive), and you hopefully can see why you don't want to put the cart before the horse.
> 
> I realize that the mantra commonly seen on these horse forums is "what has he done?", but that mantra, when spoken, immediately identifies (to experienced breeders) either a non-breeder or novice breeder. It is both practical and logical to breed a young horse once or twice to see what he is going to throw so you don't spend money on a mediocre stallion that really should be gelded...


Thanks for the non confrontational reply.....it made sense, it's amazing how much information one can process when they're not slamming their fingers down on the keyboard!:lol:
(you still haven't answered my questions, but I'm going to back away from this while the goings good:wink and it's not helping my sinus infection!


----------



## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Faceman I agree 150% with your above post. Funny how often we agree except in a political debate.
I also think that when someone post asking what a stallion or mare has done to warrant breeding them .... novice..... or at the least just repeating what they have seen posted elsewhere.
Horses with great bloodlines ,conformation, temperament and abilities all deserve consideration when the breeding question arises.
Shalom


----------



## rookie (May 14, 2012)

I will just post in addition to support faceman's ideas. We have an up and coming race horse. We have high hopes for him as he is really well bred. I wanted to geld him a year ago. We don't have the facilities for a stallion, although if he was kept as a stud he would stand elsewhere. It was decided that we would wait a year and see how he did in training. His father is a hall of fame horse and his mothers side equally strong. He was gelded a few weeks ago. He has potential as a racehorse but he is not going to light the world on fire and the handling staff said he was getting a bit rank. It will be much easier to find him a home post racing as a gelding. Its like faceman said breeding is dynamic and requires that you constantly re-evaluate your stallion. Its not like you decide not to geld your horse at two and you never return to the idea. In the end stallions are nice but geldings are easier. Stallions are unforgiving in their management. You have to have rules and be absolute in those rules. In my opinion the average horse owner needs easy and forgiving.

I have seen stallions cover a mare or two and become very dangerous to work around. A lot of them did not have the manners in place as a young horse to make them handle the surge of testosterone that is being a stallion. As a result, they became dangerous to handle and are sold. The thing is that it takes a special trainer to "fix" the behavioral issues that a poorly mannered stallion brings to the table. Sometimes these stallions have learned that they can get the hand up on people. Thats a bad thing for any horse to learn but then you add sex drive into it and the idea that they can fight through people makes a bad situation. Take a look at the often brought up palomino stallion in the documentary Buck. The first thing advised was gelding that horse. There is a reason for that. A stallion is going to take any behavioral problem and blow it up on a movie screen. If your gelding walks through you a stallion is going to run through you. There is nothing wrong with test breeding as long as you have the time to spend training the foal and a place for your test foals to go if they don't turn out as envisioned.


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I've had many stallions, and I've had many stallions who became geldings. Like I mentioned in the other thread, I will geld at any time I decide a stallion isn't going to be used for whatever reason, economics, has become rank, doesn't live up to potential, or just flat ****es me off one time too many. Stallions will always test. Some test nicer than others and some test HARD. You can trust a stallion with your life under saddle but on the ground, you better never turn your back on him. 

My family owned a Native Dancer son who we barn named Piranha because he grabbed my cousin ( a big guy 6'4" plus and HEAVY built) who is a track veterinarian and KNOWS horses, by the shoulder and threw him down the barn aisle. Took 3 surgeries and that shoulder never was right. 

My first stallion was a Native Dancer grandson named Dancebel, he won on track and sired some awesome foals who ran well and looked great. Dance was a really sweet stallion and an ease to hand breed, but he hated other stallions and geldings with a passion. You better NEVER let your guard down if someone walked by with a male horse, there was going to be trouble. 

So, keeping a colt intact is not something that I would ever take lightly. I will look at them hard when they're born and I'll keep looking at them til they're old enough to run, ride or test breed and then I'll re-evaluate on a regular basis. Geldings are a whole lot easier to deal with, but stallions have so much personality and spark....they're special. One thing I won't do is second guess my decision to geld. Once I decide, that's it. If I decide in July, I might wait til November because of cooler weather and fewer flies, but those things are coming off. 

This 2 year old that I just test bred, and am training under saddle now, will be my last intact colt, IF he gets to stay that way. We're getting older and slower and collecting the semen makes you especially vulnerable. I want to make darn sure I can mostly trust that guy up over my head while I'm under him with the AV. If I ever have any doubts......snip snip. 

It isn't just about the foals, though they are the desired end product. A great stallion is a thing of rare beauty and joy to be around. The foals, if they live up to their breeding heritage........oh wow, there's no satisfaction like breeding an excellent foal. I love working with and training the little ones, they are such sponges and soak up knowlege so quickly. I love watching them think and play and think some more. I love getting to the age mile markers and thinking, "He/She is going to try THIS any day now." and ta da, here it comes. 

Breeding is a lot of work, expense and even more responsibility. It's not for every one and if I had to do it over again, I'd do it in a minute I get such joy from it.


----------



## BarrelRacingLvr (Feb 26, 2012)

When we usually have a serious stud prospect we test them as 2yr olds and may cover a mare or 2 to see what he might throw....I am not going to wait till the horse is 5 to start covering mares and he not be a good producer and throw quality foals after all the time and effort in his training. JUST because a horse has the perfect conformation and you breed to the perfect mare doesn't mean that stud is going to produce show or quality foals. 

I like to have an idea of what he is going to throw, and who knows the more he matures I may not like how he looks or is filling out and he may lose his man hood. It is hard for me to explain exactly what I am trying to say and get my point lol....I probably am not making any sense.


----------



## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

I think there are two separate lines of thought here.
1. How long should a breeder wait to test breed mares on their own up and coming stallion prospect? If you have the mares, and choose to test breed, that is up to you. I agree that 2 is the minimum here.
2. From my perspective, as the owner of only a couple mares, stallion owners should wait until their horse is proven before marketing. I would not look twice at an unproven stud. Why would I breed my valuable mare to a stallion not proven in the breeding shed, under saddle, or that is not even physically or mentally mature? That is a risk I'm not wanting to take . I have to pay thousands in fees and vet care, and wait 11 months. I will take every opportunity to stack the odds in favor of me getting the foal I want.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

BlueSpark said:


> I think there are two separate lines of thought here.
> 1. How long should a breeder wait to test breed mares on their own up and coming stallion prospect? If you have the mares, and choose to test breed, that is up to you. I agree that 2 is the minimum here.
> 2. From my perspective, as the owner of only a couple mares, stallion owners should wait until their horse is proven before marketing. I would not look twice at an unproven stud. Why would I breed my valuable mare to a stallion not proven in the breeding shed, under saddle, or that is not even physically or mentally mature? That is a risk I'm not wanting to take . I have to pay thousands in fees and vet care, and wait 11 months. I will take every opportunity to stack the odds in favor of me getting the foal I want.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 That is exactly the position I was in. I guess a lot depends on the market you are aiming at but for where I always was - working with & owning nice quality brood mares that had proven themselves in some discipline I was only interested in sending them to a stallion that was worth breeding them too and managed on a well run establishment. 
I have known stallion owners who have offered them to the public as unproven youngsters but the fees are very low to reflect that. I also know and have used stallions where the owner refuses to let them cover mares that they feel aren't good enough to give their horse a top reputation.
I guess everything is relative
One thing that I do question (this is NOT an argument) - if you breed from a 2 year old to test it as to whether or not its worth keeping as a stallion - how can you even begin to judge the offspring as performance horses until they are at least 2 or 3 year olds themselves and riding or do you just go by how nice the foals are - I have had a couple of dog ugly foals that I despaired over that grew into real handsome useful competition horses. Do you then wait until those foals are older before breeding again from the stallion or continue to breed from him each year?


----------



## MyLittlePonies (Mar 15, 2011)

jaydee said:


> That is exactly the position I was in. I guess a lot depends on the market you are aiming at but for where I always was - working with & owning nice quality brood mares that had proven themselves in some discipline I was only interested in sending them to a stallion that was worth breeding them too and managed on a well run establishment.
> I have known stallion owners who have offered them to the public as unproven youngsters but the fees are very low to reflect that. I also know and have used stallions where the owner refuses to let them cover mares that they feel aren't good enough to give their horse a top reputation.
> I guess everything is relative
> One thing that I do question (this is NOT an argument) - if you breed from a 2 year old to test it as to whether or not its worth keeping as a stallion - how can you even begin to judge the offspring as performance horses until they are at least 2 or 3 year olds themselves and riding or do you just go by how nice the foals are - I have had a couple of dog ugly foals that I despaired over that grew into real handsome useful competition horses. Do you then wait until those foals are older before breeding again from the stallion or continue to breed from him each year?


Some will give it a year, others will continue breeding until they see them in the show pen. It's a gamble. If they're being sold quickly, most likely they will breed again. Many people want to see how the foals turn out in the show pen before thinking about signing the contracts. It could go in any way.


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I bred Skip to a top quality mare that I own to see what they will produce together. She has really prettied up her babies and has produced nothing but quality for me. So......next Spring whe she drops that foal, either it will be gorgeous or it won't. If it won't and it's a colt, it will be gelded and stalled right next to his newly gelded father. Then I haven't wasted a lot of time promoting, showing and training a stallion that won't pass the most basic test. If the baby is gorgeous, then we'll try with another couple of MY mares and maybe I'll relent and let my trainer breed one of his, but I've been pretty strict that he won't stand to outside mares AT ALL til I've seen at least 2 successive years of foals on the ground by a few different mares that I own. I have 2 more in mind and if he throws good babies with them, then I'll market him. In the meantime, he'll keep on being trained, shown and entered into various futurities to make his foals attractive to the showing public.


----------



## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

You can get some great bloodlines by breeding to a young stallion before he has offspring that can "prove" him. At a reasonable price if not free.
This is a great way to get access to some bloodlines you may not be able to afford. 
Yes you are taking a risk but if you get a good prospect and the stallion matures and does well you are ahead of the game.
Know what you are breeding for and know your bloodlines then you reduce the risk. Shalom


----------



## TristaJean (May 23, 2012)

I got to about page 5 of this thread before I had to stop reading. Some of you are downright vicious. Jc.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

TristaJean said:


> I got to about page 5 of this thread before I had to stop reading. Some of you are downright vicious. Jc.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


HECK it hadn't even warmed up yet, it went way downhill from there. :shock:


----------



## TristaJean (May 23, 2012)

Some people take the Internet WAY too seriously.

Holy crap.
_Posted via Mobile Device_

If I was interested in becoming a member of the equestrian community, I would be horrified and appealed at reading this thread. I just think that this is public, and people from all over the world read this and make assumptions and judge equestrians from this. Horse people already have a reputation of being catty and elitist, let's not prove them right.

But you probably shouldn't listen to me because I'm an 18 year old hippie liberal freak with facial piercings who owns a gelding and has no show record or breeding animals to speak of. ;-)


----------



## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

Actually, I have enjoyed reading this thread & no I don't find this thread vicious:shock: just people with some breeding experience stating the facts & calling out those that think they know better but have no prior experience to back them up.:wink:


----------



## TristaJean (May 23, 2012)

Or, attacking someone who had a different opinion. 
Sorry but I don't get enjoyment from seeing someone being ganged up on for no reason other than expressing their opinion. 

Agree to disagree. 
But have some class and tact.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

TristaJean said:


> Or, attacking someone who had a different opinion.
> Sorry but I don't get enjoyment from seeing someone being ganged up on for no reason other than expressing their opinion.
> 
> Agree to disagree.
> ...


Why don't you read the whole thread before you say it was vicious, and people were "ganging up" on one person? If you read more than the first 5 pages, you would have seen an amicable truce reached...


----------



## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

Muppetgirl said:


> Also, do any of you actually maintain stallions and live cover mares with them? Do you understand how much stress and anxiety breeding can put on a stallion? Sorry, but breeding a two year old stud and breaking in a horse at two years old are two totally different things......
> Backyard breeders like quantity over quality.....it should all require a license and screening to keep breeds honest and sound.....


 
That is the most rediculous thing i have EVER heard. Do YOU keep and maintain a stallion? I DO! SEVERAL of them actually. My horses are not stressed. I do not keep them in tiny stalls and only bring them out to breed. My animals live in a herd. Like they are made to live. Not in an artificial environment that pleases their humans. 

And i do agree. Breaking in a horse and breeding a horse at two are two totally different things. One thing is NATURAL and the other is NOT! a 2 year old is NOT ready to have weight on its back. Horses do not skeletally mature until 5.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

GhostwindAppaloosa said:


> That is the most rediculous thing i have EVER heard. Do YOU keep and maintain a stallion? I DO! SEVERAL of them actually. My horses are not stressed. I do not keep them in tiny stalls and only bring them out to breed. My animals live in a herd. Like they are made to live. Not in an artificial environment that pleases their humans.
> 
> And i do agree. Breaking in a horse and breeding a horse at two are two totally different things. One thing is NATURAL and the other is NOT! a 2 year old is NOT ready to have weight on its back. Horses do not skeletally mature until 5.


 Isn't this comment taking the thread straight back into the argumentative? Surely this was a generalised statement and not one aimed personally at you?
Just because you give your stallions a natural life doesn't mean that everyone elses does. The majority of large stud farms certainly dont operate like you do. Mostly they would see that their stallions are too valuable to be allowed to run as a herd with a bunch of mares and someone with a mare that they valued wouldn't welcome the idea of having it turned out with a load of strange mares to have it covered either
Some people are just too keen to look at things only from their perspective and the way they operate. Just because someone has a different opinion to you doesn't mean its essentially wrong or that they dont have the right to hold on to that opinion
From what I can see the people who have posted on this thread all seem to be very responsible stallion owners but by arguing so fiercely for themselves they are missing the point that though they may be doing things correctly there are obviously still far too many out there that aren't or the market still wouldn't be flooded with poor quality and unwanted horse
Having some sort of a licensing programme based on an approval process to eliminate poor stock from the breeding chain has nothing to do with getting in the way of FREEDOM (and by the way last I heard it wasn't just the US that enjoyed the rights of freedom of choice) People can still breed horses when they want too but for those that aren't so good at doing the homework it would eliminate some of the risks and it would remove a lot of the bad elements who seem to have very little regard for their horses welfare anyway.


----------



## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Jaydee, I have no problem with anyone having a differing opinion. In fact I am glad they do so we all aren't posting things just to get along.
The post Ghostwind is responding to., was questioning the knowledge of some very experieinced breeders.
Now I have no problem with Muppetgirl and by just agreeing to disagree she showed a lot of class. By doing so she gained my respect and probably some of the other members too.
The bad part about posting our thoughts on the internet is that we can't grasp the full meaning and tones meant by other members.
Maybe in the future we need to concentrate on the information given instead of the presumed insults.
The question as Faceman stated was indeed a valid and important one.
We all have our different ways of doing things that doesn't make them the only acceptable or proper way. Shalom


----------



## AbsitVita (Aug 28, 2012)

I do know that the stallion of my preference, Trussardi was started in showing at a yearling and was covering mares before he was 2. He will be 4 in January and has already had nearly (if not more than) 100 foals sired, although only a few are listed on AllBreedPedigree.com, and will be shown again next year.


----------



## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

With him being the one of if not the last of his dams foals only a fool would pass up that breeding. She is also the dam of the great Versace.
they will probably offer breedings to him to increase his value. Just like they do TBs so only those willing to put up a couple 100,000 dollars are going to have access to this stallion.
this is a good example of why it is a sound practice to start breeding a stallion at 2. Shalom


----------



## AbsitVita (Aug 28, 2012)

dbarabians said:


> With him being the one of if not the last of his dams foals only a fool would pass up that breeding. She is also the dam of the great Versace.
> they will probably offer breedings to him to increase his value. Just like they do TBs so only those willing to put up a couple 100,000 dollars are going to have access to this stallion.
> this is a good example of why it is a sound practice to start breeding a stallion at 2. Shalom


He actually was the last foal of Precious as Gold, she died in 2011 I believe. PTS due to her quality of life taking a drastic decrease from arthritis. They actually didn't let her carry him to term. According to the information the owners posted on their website, they harvested her fertilized embryos and I'm assuming let a younger mare carry him to term. The only thing I don't like about Trussardi is that blasted sea horse look which is so popular these days. His pedigree is the reason I'm interested in coughing up the (currently) $4500 to get a semen packet from him to impregnate my hopefully soon to be mare....I lost the chance on Cambria and am still looking for a mare I can move on. His sire, Stival, is another stallion I'd be interested in "breeding" my mare to and I emphasize the quotations because I was informed by a couple of breeders that chilled or frozen semen is the only way they "do it" these days....:neutral::neutral::neutral:


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Trussardi sells himself by virtue of his own pedigree, his own show record and that of his half brother Versace are impressive enough that for someone wanting to breed a showring arabian using him as a 2 year old would not be considered a risk at all
This is not some 2 year old on Craigslist
I doubt very much he would be risked running free with mares as an injury could destroy his show career. The stud - like most top breeding establishments offers frozen semen - my own vet specialises in breeding and has only one client who actually 'naturally' covers mares with a stallion now. The stud that own Trussardi also geld 99% of the colts they breed and offer a 50% reduction in stud fee to anyone who breeds a colt from him and has it gelded - never uses it to cover a mare.
They are totally about selective breeding - which is why they have an arabian like this that has the combined extreme head and neck with a good body and legs and not one of the poor scrubby things you pick up for free.
Hope you can get your dream to own one of his offspring!!


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*Absivita *Just to add - you would need to have a mare that was of similar type and quality to produce a foal that looked like this and had this much body.
Having a good stallion isn't enough to do it. I'm sure you know that already
If you look through his ancestors on the Allbreeds pedigree database you will see some very different horses to the way he looks and using the wrong mare could result in a throwback
I have to say that I'm not crazy on that extreme head either and a lot of arabians that were bred to look like that - I call them pasture art - have/had very poor conformation and really narrow & flimsy legged


----------



## AbsitVita (Aug 28, 2012)

Thanks Jaydee, your words are encouraging. Although I've spoken with Dreamcatcher Arabians and I told her my goal of bringing back the desert look of the Arabian horse....ultimately my goal in breeding at all. I know that Trussardi is a champion of his own merit. His pedigree includes Khemosabi, Estopa, Soho Carol, El Shaklan, Morafic and Ali Jamaal...to name a few. I would also love to have Silver Drift in the lines as well, maybe the mare will have him in there and combine the best lines to produce my own champion...we'll see how it goes!


----------



## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

I think everyone agrees that some poor quality horse on craigslist is probably not the candidate for breeding at all.

The question .. and subsequent various arguments was about the appropriate breeding age for a stallion.

The arguments presented against ever breeding a 2-year-old were not valid, and disproven by breeders with years of experience.

The question was not about breeding quality.. it was about age.


----------



## AbsitVita (Aug 28, 2012)

Point taken, Texasgal, shutting up now....lol!


----------



## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

I wasn't shutting you up AV! lol

It's just when the age argument didn't work, some folks turned to quality ... I was just reminding that the question wasn't about quality.


----------



## AbsitVita (Aug 28, 2012)

:hide: Don't SPEAR me!!!!


----------



## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

Git out from under that dang chair!


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Without the right kind of quality, age won't matter. An ugly, colly wobbled mess will be an ugly, colly wobbled mess at 1, 2 and 22.....LOL! 

As for Jaydee's wanting to go to a Keuring system here in the U.S., unfortunately that's just never going to catch on. AWS is a joke, offering their 'inspections' and no tests, and the European system works alright IF there's an outlet for those horses who don't make the cut. 

In Europe they eat horse meat which at present is verboten here in the U.s. and without that very important outlet, and all the folks here who are adamantly against slaughter.......I can't see it happening because of the culls. 

I actually would like to see an inspection system like that here but even I would balk at licensing, too much like Janow Podlaski or Michalow State Studs in Poland.


----------



## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Jaydee as a stallion owner I see no reason to involve a vet and share the profits with him or a stallion station. Therefore I do live cover.
Now i will be sending him to a stallion station to be collected this year and receive 50 draws. An insurance against a possible loss of my stallion.
The people that own Trussardi encourage gelding NOT to keep unwanted horses from being bred they do it to limit the number of stallions with the same bloodlines. It keeps their stud fees up and if you want that particualr bloodline you gotta pay them.
By the way if you bring your own feed for your mare I do NOT charge you a fee for mare care.
I do require a ceritifcate from the vet and current coggins and shot records. The mare owners MUST have that mare Checked in foal by a vet after 16 days and 3 months to comply with the Live foal gaurantee.
I bred 5 mares to outside owners last year I turned away 3 others.
So if you breed to my stallion excluding gthe vet fees you pay 1,000 for arab mares and 500 for nonarabs. Shalom
Shalom


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The question was open to opinion and everyone was entitled to their opinion. I do think that the answer to the question actually does hang around whether or not a two year old is *worth* breeding from and not just a straight yes or no.To me thats the deciding factor and not just the age
If breeders choose to use a quality mature 2 year old then thats fine but if others prefer not too based on their own beliefs then whats the harm in that?
I think that the thread went off in some interesting tangents - its what makes some threads more interesting than others
Not all experts share the opinion that a 2 year old should be used either. This is taken from a Research paper called Overview of Stallion Breeding Management by David W Freeman Oklahoma State University Equine Specialist.
As I said - Different people have different ideas. Its a free country - they are entitled to them


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

That's where collecting the stallion comes in. When I first started collecting stallions, the accepted ratio was 7 breeding doses per 1 collection. Now, they extend to the point that they 'guarantee' XXX number of motile sperm in a collection and they can send out 20+ (and that's conservative) breeding doses per collection now. That's how a 1.5 year old stallion can settle a BUNCH of mares. 

Another reason they breed these youngsters so young is so they will hopefully have a bunch of good get on the ground before the steroids and/or Regumate makes them have fertility issues. When you're breeding to a HUGE name stallion, that can be a very real problem. I've seen first hand just how the messing with steroids and hormones can screw up a perfectly good young stallion. I don't allow ANY of that with my show horses. I also don't allow Regumate used on my mares just to keep them from showing heat. It's very common practice.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

dbarabians said:


> Jaydee as a stallion owner I see no reason to involve a vet and share the profits with him or a stallion station. Therefore I do live cover.
> Now i will be sending him to a stallion station to be collected this year and receive 50 draws. An insurance against a possible loss of my stallion.
> The people that own Trussardi encourage gelding NOT to keep unwanted horses from being bred they do it to limit the number of stallions with the same bloodlines. It keeps their stud fees up and if you want that particualr bloodline you gotta pay them.
> By the way if you bring your own feed for your mare I do NOT charge you a fee for mare care.
> ...


 Yes I totally see your point - but many breeders have gone into AI because it can extend their 'selling' of the stallion by a massive amount and save all the hassle of keeping visiting mares - now that can cause overbreeding too.............................
The UK isn't a horsemeat eating country but sees the slaughter yards as a necessary thing. Some do end up on dinner plates on the Continent but a lot go to the pet food industry or to feed zoo animals
Countries like France who do eat horsemeat dont rely on unwanted stock to feed demand, the biggest supply comes from draft breeds like the Breton and percheron that are kept in the same way as beef cattle.
The selective breeding that is done in Europe is about keeping breeds as high quality as possible, improving breed standards as well as reducing numbers to give good breeders a realistic chance of surviving - hundreds are going out of business because selling a horse that you have put several years of work and cash into for a few hundred pounds is just not viable


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I don't know how they do it in UK but in Spain the Yeguada Militar come around and take the culls one a year and that furnishes meat for the army. Not hearsay by the way, a friend of mine lives in Spain and raises Arabians and has them inspected by the Yeguada and that's how they handle the culls. 

I just don't see Americans going for it though.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I don't know how they do it in UK but in Spain the Yeguada Militar come around and take the culls one a year and that furnishes meat for the army. Not hearsay by the way, a friend of mine lives in Spain and raises Arabians and has them inspected by the Yeguada and that's how they handle the culls.
> 
> I just don't see Americans going for it though.


 As I say - the UK isn't a meat eating country and there is a constant debate there about horses going to the continent to be served up as lunch. No one would tolerate enforced culls but there is a lot of pressure on breeders who run horses on Dartmoor and places like that to remove stallions or restrict the time they are on their for - most of this is steered by low prices and neglect. Foals fetching as little as a few $'s each and hundreds going straight to slaughter.
Many horses in the US are going off to slaughter - they just have a longer trip to get there. 
Prices will only come back up as the numbers bred are reduced and the numbers of useless (sorry but many are) dispatched
I am also not against trail horses by the way - all of my show horses were ridden out most days on roads and tracks. I believe that all horses should have a purpose beyond the showring which makes temperament as important as conformation


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

jaydee said:


> Prices will only come back up as the numbers bred are reduced and the numbers of useless (sorry but many are) dispatched
> 
> I am also not against trail horses by the way - all of my show horses were ridden out most days on roads and tracks. I believe that all horses should have a purpose beyond the showring which makes temperament as important as conformation


I totally agree with your price point comment. And agree with the "uselessness" of many horses. 

A good trail horse is worth his weight in gold, and a good show horse who is also sensible and sound enough to handle long days on the trail is worth double that, IMO. I think trail riding is an important mental health stimulant for both horse & rider.


----------



## SeamusCrimin (Oct 1, 2012)

I'm no professional breeder, but I think I'd rather wait it out till the stallion has proven himself in the show ring - either in hand or under saddle. 

However, I can see that "time is money" and many farms can't afford to wait 4+ years for their stud prospect to prove himself - in case he doesn't - and that means that the breeder has wasted some money. time and extra effort to maintain that stallion, when they could have gelded him. 

If you're going to breed a stud prospect at 2 years, ENSURE that he's been approved by a vet conformation wise and health wise - at least then you will have something and all you now have to worry about is the mare's quality.


----------



## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

I think it would be a waste of time, asking any vet about conformation. They don't know about conformation, most usually. The owner should ask the opinion of knowledgeable people in the breed, to get an idea of whether or not, a horse is of possible breeding quality.

Certainly a vet should be able to point out a problem in gait etc., but not overall conformation. Even in feeding of animals, most vets have never been trained for it. Look at how many vets push very poor food for dogs. It is purely because they sell it themselves. It is knowledgeable breeders who know these things.

Lizzie


----------



## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Feathered Feet I may have to disagree about vets not knowing conformation. Why then would you hve one perform a Pre Purchase Exam?
How are they to fully diagnosis a soundness problem if it might be conformational? The vets I use are horse owners also and have a large equine practice.
I think that might be the difference in some being more knowledgeable than others.
Not trying to argue. Shalom


----------



## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

dbarabians said:


> Feathered Feet I may have to disagree about vets not knowing conformation. Why then would you hve one perform a Pre Purchase Exam?


A PPE is to address soundness issues. Vets know BASIC conformation (and there are likely a lot out there that know more than that) as far as X conformation fault might create a symptom of Y. BUT many of them are simply not qualified to assess conformation in terms of breeding quality. 

I have a fantastic vet that I adore. He is super knowledgeable about all things health related but would be the first one to say he is no expert on conformation. He can tell me that my weanling colt is probably going to be tall for his breed and "well built" but can't tell me if he's going to have that extra "something" that would make him a good stallion prospect.


----------



## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

If your vet is a horse owner, breeder, shows and is very knowledgeable about conformation in your breed, then by all means ask an opinion. However, few vets actually own all the horse or dog breeds they see in their practice. They train for medical issues usually and very little else. Our vets love our dogs and horses, but I wouldn't ask them for a conformation opinion and on breeding. Most likely they'd say 'go ahead', regardless of whether I showed them a well conformed animal, or not. 

I think we've all seen it many times, on forums such as this. Someone will show a pic of a very iffy quality horse or dog, but their vet has told them it would be fine for breeding. Of course it would be ok to breed. The majority of animals are, if they have working, reproductive parts. Doesn't mean they _should_ be bred.

Lizzie


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Maybe I'm just lucky but all the many horse vets I've had have also been horse owners and really experienced so I'd have trusted any of them on conformation matters. Our current vet also breeds a few horses and specialises in stud work and his wife and daughter both compete, he's always going on courses to learn new things to keep up to date with change and advancement and they are up to date with all the latest nutrition advice
I can see that it wouldnt be worth bothering asking a vet who was only interested in illness issue and if you live somewhere where they are in short supply I suppose you have to take what you can get


----------



## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Nickel, and Feathered Feet, I see your point but I only deal with a large animal vet when it comes to livestock. Around here they better know if an animal has some conformation flaws. Not saying they could walk into an arena a judge a halter class but surely they would understand that upright hocks, weak backs etc are predisposed to soundness issues. Shalom


----------



## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

Of course they should, but most vets wouldn't tell you whether or not that horse or any horse, was a good example of his/her breed and say whether or not the horse is likely to produce something worthwhile.

And besides, if anyone decides to breed, they should really know enough about the breed and the standard for that breed, to know if the horse is breed-worthy anyway. They shouldn't have to ask a vet. 

I think we are speaking of two different things here. Excellent conformation and being breed-worthy and whether or not a horse has some problems such as weak hocks etc.

Lizzie


----------



## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

I understand Feathered Feet. I also agree that anyone who has to ask someone else if the horse is worthy of breeding should probably not breed in the first place.

I am in between sessions with clients and might have gotten off on a tangent or focused on one statement. Shalom


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I confused me too - its easy to read several different meanings into a comment though as all depends on what you're focused on
Having a system of breed approved stallions would help a lot - not all people looking to breed a mare for the first time have as much knowledge as they should so if there was a list of stallions that had been inspected by a breed society and entered into a database that anyone could access it would help a lot. Having some 'famous names' in its line doesnt essentially mean that a stallion is going to be wonderful as it could have been bred from a crappy mare. 
I know that what has become known as the 'Sport Horse' isn't a breed but a type of horse aimed at competing in many disciplines at all levels but they have made a lot of effort into guiding people to produce a good quality all round horse by providing information, stallion grading & a registry that could be used to do the same in any breeds. 
The Sport Horse Show and Breed Database
Home
New breed society's (as in recognition of) like the Gypsy Cobs are going to enormous lengths to protect them and rule out horses that dont conform to really strict standards of quality and lineage
It doesnt mean that there cant be the lower priced horses on the market to satisfy that demand but even they should be bred for purpose and not riddled with defects.


----------



## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Americans are never going to agree to a system like some countries have in Europe that inspects stallions and mares for breeding.
First of all there are too many horses here 7 million +. the country is too large and there are too many different breeds.
Plus add the expense of getting a stallion approved and the average owner would disregard the process anyway.

I have thought of having my Arabian stallion approved as a sport pony sire.
With the expense involved i would probably no get any financial return worth my time and effort. Shalom


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

dbarabians said:


> Americans are never going to agree to a system like some countries have in Europe that inspects stallions and mares for breeding.
> First of all there are too many horses here 7 million +. the country is too large and there are too many different breeds.
> Plus add the expense of getting a stallion approved and the average owner would disregard the process anyway.
> 
> ...


 It wouldn't have to be a compulsory thing and I'm sure that the more discerning breeder would welcome some scheme that would tell them if a stallion was carrying some sort of a genetic defect


----------



## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

jaydee said:


> It wouldn't have to be a compulsory thing and I'm sure that the more discerning breeder would welcome some scheme that would tell them if a stallion was carrying some sort of a genetic defect


Alot of breeders (well, most of the honest one anyway) test for genetic defects through UC Davis or the likes. Unless you're talking about conformation defects, which I would hope the mare owner would be able to see when they look at any stallion that might be used for breeding.


----------

