# What color grey will my horse "grey out" to be?



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

No idea if there's some way of working out 'what kind of grey' a horse will be. First thought was WOW! what markings! Then I realised she was clipped! She looks more dun than grey to me. Or is that just dirt? Attached are pics of my kid's pony when he was about 7yo & then again recently when he's around 18yo

Ed to add the last one of my(same) daughter riding meant to be second - that was a few years ago when his mane & tail were still a bit darker. Pic of pony in paddock is a few weeks ago.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Usually they go white before they start to get freckles.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

There was a paper written and I don't have it saved so can't look up but it linked flea bitten gray to horses that are heterozygous for the gray gene. It has something to do with the horse not graying with age because the graying gene cancels out that process so some hairs revert to the horse's original color.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Foxhunter said:


> Usually they go white before they start to get freckles.


Oh I didn't realise that was 'a thing'. He's the first steel grey - white horse I've had & has just started coming out in small brown spots this summer!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

QtrBel said:


> There was a paper written and I don't have it saved so can't look up but it linked flea bitten gray to horses that are heterozygous for the gray gene. It has something to do with the horse not graying with age because the graying gene cancels out that process so some hairs revert to the horse's original color.


If you find that paper,let me know. Most grey horses I have known,including Charlie, were heterozygous for grey, but were not flea bitten
I do know, if a grey horse gets a scar, it will at first grow back in to original base coat color

"Gray Coat Color / Melanoma
Description:
Gray is the dominant gene responsible for the gradual and progressive de-pigmentation (fading) of the carrying horse. Gray cannot be considered a base-color, or a dilution, but rather a gene which slowly removes pigment from the coat. Gray is considered to be the 'strongest' of all coat modifiers, and acts upon any base-color regardless of the carrying horse's phenotype. The fading process itself may last for years, but once hair is de-pigmented, the horse's original coloring will never return.


Since gray is a dominant gene, where it is present it is expressed. However, the final phenotype of the carrier will vary from horse to horse. Some gray horses fade to full de-pigmentation (almost pure white) whereas others may be 'fleabitten'. Fleabitten refers to gray horses with tiny non-faded spots or 'fleabites.' The gray carrying horse may also experience de-pigmentation of the skin itself, and before skin is fully faded may display 'mottling'.'

Gray Coat Color/ Melanoma


Grey, in reality is not a color, but the process of depigmentation other original coat color
I also read the heterozgyous grey horses grey slower, but Charlie never read that book.She was almost completely as a yearling


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

this is a good article if you wish to get right into the genetics of grey, and the article also makes more sense, as to why fleabitten horses occur in some heterogygous grey horses. The grey gene is not responsible, but rather some of the grey genes can be switched off, because the horse is heterozygous:


;In some heterozygous horses the mutant gene was deactivated in some regions of their body, so normal pigment production has been able to resume, giving the marks known as "blood marks". Flea-bitten grey horses develop speckles in the original coat colour, after the greying process has started. This might be due to the same mechanism as blood marking, or "flea-bites" may be controlled by a separate gene, as discussed below.'


Flea-bitten Gray


Flea-bitten gray horses develop speckles in the original coat color. For example gray horses born chestnut develop chestnut "flea-bites". If this speckling starts soon enough the flea-bites can become quite large and numerous, with the horse developing to look a bit like a leopard spot appaloosa.

"Flea-bites" are thought to be controlled by a separate and probably recessive gene, not linked to the gray gene. It is possible that other colors of horse can have the flea-bitten genotype, but the speckles wouldn't show since they are the same color as the coat!

gray horses


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Fascinating. So, saying fleabitten' is of original coat color, does it explain this... 

My pony who was steel Grey with a pale face when I got him aged 7yo was apparently black as a foal & early life(owner showed me pics). So far as I know, he didn't start out chestnut/brown or have any on him, but has just recently come out in brown 'flea bites'. 

And if 'grey is not a color' what of horses who are born white?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Almost all horses born white, are actually maxium expression of some coat pattern marking, like a few spot leopard
Grey, while we perceive it as a color, is just the greying gene working (modifying) the base color of that horse, replacing pigmented hair with non pigmented.
The rate of expression varies, thus in those cases you get lucky, having a nice steel grey horse for awhile, for example.
In my case, the expression was very rapid. Once all pigmented hair is replaced with non pigmented, you have what looks like a white horse

White horses are born white, and will have pink skin. Horses that grey, eventually becoming white, will retain dark pigmented skin where they were born with coat color in those areas.
For instance, Charlie has black skin, where she was solid, when born, easily seen when she is wet

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_(horse)


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Here is some genetics on white horses

https://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/horse/dominantwhite.php


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

What of a black horse that greys & eventually gets brown fleabites, as mine has?


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## quarterhorses342 (Sep 15, 2016)

Here's a close up of her coat  thank you all so much


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

that is a close up of the pony's coat, that appears white?
Not sure, far as your question, so will 'guess' for now,LoL
Was the pony a true black when born, or a very dark brown? I have had brown horses change the expression over the years of their brown coat
Also not sure what would happen if that recessive gene that suppresses the greying gene in certain areas of the body, only gets partly suppressed.
Now that you have me curious, will need to do some more research


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## quarterhorses342 (Sep 15, 2016)

Yes she is grey, I was curious if she would be a flea bitten grey cause of how much red she has in her, I haven't had her since a foal but I believe she was either black or dark bay as a foal


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

What color was she before she started to gray?


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

loosie said:


> saying fleabitten' is of original coat color





loosie said:


> What of a black horse that greys & eventually gets brown fleabites, as mine has?


Fleabites are thought to occur when cells suddenly start being able to produce pigment again. It seems reasonable that if they did suddenly, they would go back to producing the color they did originally, yet horses like your black show that isn't necessarily true. Since the mechanics behind fleabites isn't yet understood, I don't know that anybody can really answer your question. And I suspect there is a lot more to it than just zygosity, as my heterozygous grey mare (who was born chestnut) doesn't have a single fleabite on her! 

Of our two with fleabites, both were born bay and are coming 19. One - who is heavily fleabitten and gets more every shed - is def turning back to a bay, with red flecks on his body and black flecks on his legs. The other, who is just starting to have some fleabites, is only showing red on his body. Will he eventually turn bay if he lives long enough to let it progress? I can only hope to find out!


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## Fimargue (Jun 19, 2015)

loosie said:


> What of a black horse that greys & eventually gets brown fleabites, as mine has?


Mine was born black as well and has both dapples and fleabites.

Around 6 years old, doing endurance:



11 years old:


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

Fimargue said:


>


And his mane is still so dark! Maybe someday we will understand the genetics behind that too..


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

According the the article I posted,fleabites are thought to be due to a totally different gene then the greying gene.
On solid horses, these flea bites are not noticed
I have no example of flea bites, but perhaps an example as to how a coat color can mask a pattern, until that horse either roans or greys
When we bought my husbands old trail horse, he was a solid black, with just a little white blanket-no spots
As he roaned over time, big black spots appeared, so that he eventually wound up looking like aloud black leopard
tHose spots had been there all along, but black spots on a black coat,do not show up!
From what I have read, and posted on the flea bite of grey horses, there is a totally different gene at work, which can switch off the greying gene on various locations. In other words, hairs in those areas can again pick up pigment
Grey horses are vulnerable to melanoma,because that melanoma accumulates in the skin, not picked up by the hair. If that was partly turned off, you would again get colored hair in those areas


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I had a filly born that was very dark black/ brown and she stayed that way until she was five then she started to grey out. (Her sore was grey) by the time she was 10'she was white. 

Loosie, the picture you put up of the close up where the coat is beige/grey, this is not flea bitten but just part of the process of her greying out. 
Fimague's mare at 11 shows true flea bitten coat.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

phantomhorse13 said:


> And his mane is still so dark! Maybe someday we will understand the genetics behind that too..


Yeah, my pony was that purdy colour with dark grey mane & tail for a while, but not so 'fleabitten', until he whited out completely. Been that way for a couple of years now & just starting to get spots.

Does this mean there's hope for my 'appy' that he will come out in spots one day??:lol: He's buckskin & 18yo... not holding my breath!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Foxhunter said:


> Loosie, the picture you put up of the close up where the coat is beige/grey, this is not flea bitten but just part of the process of her greying out.


That was OP's horse I believe.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

loosie said:


> Yeah, my pony was that purdy colour with dark grey mane & tail for a while, but not so 'fleabitten', until he whited out completely. Been that way for a couple of years now & just starting to get spots.
> 
> Does this mean there's hope for my 'appy' that he will come out in spots one day??:lol: He's buckskin & 18yo... not holding my breath!


I would not hold your breath on that Appy!If the Appaloosa roaning gene has not worked on him yet, it never will.
Smilie is never going to color either, but that solid palomino colt I bought this fall,looks like he will. He has mottled skin, sclera and sipped hooves where there are no white leg markings.
I am sure there will be a few spots when he sheds his winter woolies

If not, I will be taking horse porn pics to get three App characteristics (meaning the mottling on his anus and genitals )
Back to greying- Smilie is living in the winter with both Charlie and Carmen. She looks like a chestnut horse out with two white horses-only Charlie is Max expression of the greying gene,while Carmen has the Appaloosa roan gene at work. She does get a bit darker in summer
My son's better half asked me if I purposely raised white horses. Umm, no, we want color with Appaloosas,but those darn genes work against us

I mentioned before that I bred Charlie's mom by transported semen, to a stallion that looked like a black Leopard in the App Journal
Before Charlie was born, seeing a suspicious number of Awarded bred babies that seemed to be greying, I e mailed the stallion owner and asked if his horse carried the greying gene
His answer, 'well, some of his babies are grey!"
He is most likely white by now, as the greying gene can work at different rate of expression, on the base coat and any spots

Here is Awarded, sire of Charlie
her dam certainly was not grey, and she produced many nice colored babies for me
Charlie was born chestnut, blanket, blaze and four white stockings
Within a year she was white
First pic Awarded
sec Chalrie
third Carmen


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

Smilie said:


> According the the article I posted, fleabites are thought to be due to a totally different gene then the greying gene.


That site is not current - the most recent reference is from 2008 and most are from the 90s. The fact they describe grey and non-grey as G+ and GG and reference frame as OWLs and OO/O+ is good indicator of its age. Genetics research is changing so quickly as things are discovered and many people have never bothered to update their sites (or take them down outright as to not cause confusion).


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Thanks, Phantom. To be honest< i never really concerned myself with color genetics, other then those associated with a genetic defect< thus admit to not being up to date on color genetics, beyond the basics. I know as to which destroy Appaloosa coat markings, the association of CSNB with the LP complex, the high % of color production by a few spot, which basic coat colors are dominant, the dilution genes, and that is as far as my interest goes, far as coat colors

I am more interested in the association of melanoma with the greying genes, and how those horses with the greying gene, have to some extent modified the malignancy, so that many melanomas in grey horses remain relatively benign, and are usually more aggressive in non grey horses
I don't care if Charlie gets flea spots, but I do care if she develops melanoma!
I always bred horses for performance and disposition first, with color just being the icing.
The focus on color, often with not much interest in performance and genetic defects, has always bothered me, esp, raising horses where color is desired.
I don't know as to how many people getting into Appaloosas, just buy some loud colored stud with not much else.
The ApHC is not a color registry, but a registry, with a color preference. 
Okay, sorry for the rant, but I really don't understand the mindset of worrying about color as the primary selection criteria
A good horse is any color.


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