# Staying Safe Around Horses



## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

When many people think about safety measures around horses, helmets are generally what come to mind. In truth, helmets are a great idea and a must for kids, but they truly are a last line of defense. Do not take me to mean that I am anti-helmet. This is in no way the case. You’ll never, ever hear me advise someone to take their helmet off, or make fun of them for wearing one. That being said, for my peace of mind, and the safety and security of my customers and family, practicing good solid horsemanship is the first line of defense around horses. It’s fine to pad yourself for the crash and hope for the best, but do your utmost to prepare yourself and your horse so that the wreck never happens in the first place.

As some of you may know, a horse accident of my niece’s was the catalyst that caused me to begin teaching horsemanship. As she was being given her award at a horse show, her pony spooked, ran away, and threw her, head first, into the pipe fence around the arena. Her helmet was cracked, her jaw dislocated, she busted a couple of ribs, had a punctured lung, and ruptured her spleen. We are all very thankful that she was wearing her helmet that day, but truthfully, she should never have needed it, or the ambulance, or the ER...

I picked that pony up so that my brother in law didn’t shoot him. Predictably, I found that my niece’s mount was far from broke, and this, combined with her not having been taught how to handle such a situation were the true causes of the accident. Had that pony not spooked, or had it been broke enough to remain under her control, or had she been trained how to properly handle a spooked, out of control horse, she wouldn’t have used her helmet, or the ambulance, or the ER.

I am in no way saying that helmets are useless, unnecessary, or a bad idea, but, from my Horsemanship point of view, many of us are not honest enough about our horses and our own skill levels, and what is really going on. I rarely go to a horse event where I do not witness at least one person who is in the “imminent danger” category. They never know it.

We make excuses for the horse. We say “That’s just his personality,” or, “I like his spirit.” In reality, many of those cute instances are the equivalent of your horse flipping you the bird.

Some of you may have heard my spiel on the dangers of feeding treats to horses. The worst case scenario of this problem happened to a lady while I was in college. She was a breeder, an Equine Professional, and well known.

She kept sugar cubes in her shirt pocket while strolling among the mares and would feed them treats. “Ahh, what a pretty girl!! Who’s a pretty little mare? You are! Yes you are! Give mommy a kiss!!!” One day, a mare went after more and wound up biting the lady’s breast OFF. A helmet would not have helped her. Reading her horses correctly, strongly discouraging certain behaviors, and acting like a leader would have. I can say with 1000% certainty that the signs of imminent danger were apparent and evident long before she was maimed. Many people simply do not recognize, or heed the signs. After all, these horses love me. They’d NEVER do anything to hurt me, Right?

The reality is that having control of your horse’s mind and his feet are the two most important things that can be done to keep you and yours safe. Riding, or even just being around a horse that has no respect for you, or is allowed to be in a purely reactive state of mind is dangerous. Period! Wearing a helmet does not change that.

Some people say that we should model safe behavior for those who look up to us, and they certainly have a point. I have taken a bit of flak for not wearing a helmet myself. You will, however, seldom see me without my chosen safety device, a big hat, when outside. The reason for this is that I spend far more time in the sun than most people. A little over a decade ago, a barber made me aware of a spot behind one ear. We keep an eye on this area, and frankly, I think that I am at far great risk for skin cancer than head trauma. So, I’ve chosen my poison and which risk concerns me more. You should make your own decisions as well. Just be conscious and thoughtful of reality and don’t be purely reactive like those spooky horses.

While tons of people are afraid of sharks, more people are killed each year by falling coconuts. Far more people suffer head traumas in car accidents, but I’ve never yet seen someone drive up to a 3 day eventing, jumping show, or strap their kid in the car to go to school while wearing a helmet. Most of us will die of heart attacks, but nobody runs around horse shows lecturing us on the evils of cholesterol and handing out salad. I figure that when the Lord wants me, I’m a little grease spot where I stand anyway, and I choose not to live my life in fear of “what if?” Just a thought…
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

imho

situational awareness is the biggest safety tool you have

be aware of what is around you (people, obstacles, other), what is going on around you(what are those people, obstacles or others doing), what you are working with (calm green horse or jumpy not-so-green horse), and what kind of condition you are in (skill level, emtional and physical condition)


----------



## womack29 (Oct 30, 2011)

Well written. I ride with a helmet always but my horses behavior and knowledge is what is most important to me. I had a mare once and was honest with myself and she found a new home. I now have a trust worthy mount


----------



## Sharpie (May 24, 2009)

If you need your helmet, as you said, many many things have already gone wrong. Likely some of them (most of them?) without you even knowing it. They're a good last line and can save your life, and very valuable as such, but I whole-heartedly agree that stopping the ball before it rolled to that point is better.


----------



## bitinsane (Jun 5, 2013)

I had a horse nip at my boob a few weeks ago. Thank god I saw it coming and backed up in time. She only got my shirt and ripped it. I went psycho woman on that horse and she hid from me behind her little buddy for awhile.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Well I don't want to start a helmet debate but I won't get on a horse without one since I got my skull fractured in a fall - of course there are lots of dangerous things out there but I see that as one that I can easily at least try to avoid - again.
One of the biggest dangers with horses is people who get out of their depth and don't have the experience to see accidents that are 'waiting to happen'
Most of us learn from our own experiences - if of course we survive them - or we learn from other people's and don't have the foolish notion that 'it will never happen to me' of course it might not ever - but 'sod's law' is not worth gambling with when your life's at stake.
Your nieces experience reminds me of an accident to a ring judge in the UK that I recently read about - she went to tighten the girth of one of the horses she had to ride when she was mounted and assumed that the horse was trained to deal with that - well of course it should be but it wasn't and she was thrown off


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

This:"_but, from my Horsemanship point of view, many of us are not honest enough about our horses and our own skill levels, and what is really going on_". ​I find being honest with myself, and being honest about my horse, are two really tough things to do!

Jogging yesterday along a trail I've used with Mia in the past, I found chunks of cactus under loose gravel with just the spines sticking out. Happily, I found them with my eyes. But jogging along, my eyes about wither height, I realized just how much cactus was on either side of the trail. Meanwhile, I had just jogged the opposite direction along a broad shoulder of a road, parallel and within 100 yards of my path. Mia does fine around cars, and the road is not used a lot anyways.

It occurred to me that maybe I had a decent jogging trail, but a poor choice of places to ride my sometimes skittish horse!

For a variety of reasons, I've only ridden her twice in the last 2 months. I rode her today in our little arena, with my daughter riding Trooper. Mia was using a Billy Allen snaffle:








​
She actually behaved very nicely for her third ride in 2 months, and only resisted the snaffle once - when she decided she needed to RACE Trooper instead of canter near him. Since we were in an arena, I could afford both some side-to-side motion and had the option of spiraling her slower. I chose #1 and after 5-10 seconds of attitude, she gave in and slowed. So I now have something to work on - getting good stops always with a snaffle. And that is fine. But on a trail, I'll continue to choose a Billy Allen curb bit, because it is easy to stop her in a straight line with the curb. When there are prickly pear on either side, stopping as straight as possible is a good thing.

We also had 30 mph winds today, and I was glad to see she mostly ignored the wind. That was a bright spot.

My point is that I wore a helmet, and am a fan of helmets. My daughter wore a helmet today too, and will every time she rides while she is under my roof. But there is so much more involved, and much of it involves the combination of rider skill, confidence and the horse's training and riding environment. You have to accept some risk when you ride. But if you are honest about your ability, your horse's ability, and where and how you ride, there are a lot of accidents that can be avoided or made less severe. As good as helmets can be, honesty - about ourselves and our horses - is worth more!

BTW - at 56, having lived most of my life in deserts, I see a dermatologist twice a year to have odd looking moles frozen off. One that he cut off a year ago was packed with pre-cancerous cells, so he went back and removed a 2" chunk of skin around the site - and it was located at my ribs, where it was always covered. I rarely ride over an hour, but sunscreen & I have become old friends...take care! :wink:


----------



## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

bitinsane said:


> I had a horse nip at my boob a few weeks ago. Thank god I saw it coming and backed up in time. She only got my shirt and ripped it. I went psycho woman on that horse and she hid from me behind her little buddy for awhile.


I felt a bit wrong "liking" this, but by all means, save the Ta Ta's


----------



## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

I think knowing horse behavior really helps with understanding what is going on around you.

Personally, I think being on the ground poses a higher risk of injury. I am always watching the horses I am around. Just yesterday I led my horse out of a paddock while looking back because a couple of the others got excited that we were passing through. They were just being horses, but accidents happen.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I am inclined to agree that more accidents happen on the ground than falling from a horse and the biggest cause of these 'accidents' is complacency, taking things for granted and being blasé about what you are doing. 

One of the most annoying injuries I received, and it was _totally_ my fault, was when in a rush I went to worm a pony. I grabbed his halter, shoved the wormer in the side of his mouth, he reared and, as I was facing him instead of facing the same way as him, he reared, I held on and he caught me under my jaw with his knee. 

I had most of my teeth knocked out or broken, along with my jaw and cheek bone. 

Taught me two lessons, the first, to do things correctly and the second that having a horse extract you teeth is faster and less painful than any dentist even with anaesthetic!


----------



## MaximasMommy (Sep 21, 2013)

Foxhunter said:


> instead of facing the same way as him, he reared, I held on and he caught me under my jaw with his knee.
> 
> I had most of my teeth knocked out or broken, along with my jaw and cheek bone.


OHH my GOSH. I will always face the same way as the horse from now on. I never thought of them rearing up right at me. derp!


----------



## equitate (Dec 14, 2012)

The thing is we are far from the times where children grew up around horses, were taught to OBSERVE horse's behaviors and to be in control of themselves and their horses. Too many people think horses are dogs, they are not. There are prey, not predators. Their behaviors are different, and also quite predictable. Whereas humans have often tuned out of survival mode and are not looking for incomings; so horses become the ones who take over that role (and the humans are clueless). As far as helmets, they have their place.


----------



## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Totally agree with JM, situational awareness is really important, plus with the people who said on the ground is actually more dangerous for various reasons. When I was a kid the people who schooled me were very good at teaching me what to look for in the environment to anticipate and prevent problems with horses, and where to stand in relation to them in various situations to prevent accidental injury from colliding with a 500kg animal, or having one's foot trodden on, or copping its head in the face, etc. Also making sure I had mechanical advantage over a horse when handling it in new or difficult situations.

I've had a relatively accident-free 30-odd years around horses thanks to that, and great horse training books that emphasise calm, quiet persistence and not aggro, the use of which increases accident risk and decreases enjoyment. My biggest accident ever was my own fault: I was 21 and riding a mare in season around stallion yards and she got uncooperative. I got impatient instead of proactive and not thinking clearly rode the mare too close to a fence. I got my knee caught behind a post and the horse then panicked at the obstruction and veered sideways into a steel gate, trapping my still-caught leg between her and the gate while collapsing into it from the angular momentum. Then she manage to upright herself, which deposited me on the ground, but I had been caught in the stirrup with my injured leg and had to kick at the stirrup with my free foot not to get dragged. (Safety trick that had thankfully been drummed into me.) My knee was nice rainbow colours for weeks, and they needed a pipe bender to get the gate back into shape. Great mare by the way, just a combination of stupid things and not thinking clearly on my part, and a good lesson learnt there.


----------



## PaintHorseMares (Apr 19, 2008)

Foxhunter said:


> I am inclined to agree that more accidents happen on the ground than falling from a horse and the biggest cause of these 'accidents' is complacency, taking things for granted and being blasé about what you are doing.


I agree 100%. Complacency and being in a rush/taking shortcuts during handling is without a doubt the largest reason for injuries that I've seen in all my years. It is so easy to fall into that trap, and I have to admit that I've done it too, but luckily never been hurt. Something so simple as rushing to move from one side to the other of a tied horse by passing under the lead. After I've done it, I always think..."dah...what am I doing, stupid??"...it would be so easy for the horse to take a couple steps the wrong way and have that lead around my neck....

Stay safe, everyone.


----------



## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

One thing I might add (with respect). A broken leg, arm or collar bone will heal, you may need some assistance for a while during the healing period but a broken brain.....it may never heal and you will need taking care of for the rest of your life.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

The one ing I always taught children was that of a horse got loose and was charging around, they were to stand with their backs to the wall and to move sideways along the wall until they could get inside somewhere.

On one occasion I was in my car when a loose racehorse came galloping along without its rider. Another car, driving down the single track the horse was heading for, caused it to swerve into the Primary school where the children were in recess and outside playing. 

I ran after the horse and all hell had broken loose. The horse was having a 'Whoopee' on the small playing field, kids were screaming and teachers telling them to run.

I out yelled all the teachers, told the kids to stand against a wall or fence which they mostly did. I could then keep the horse on the grass whilst the children walked into the school.

I sure had trouble catching that darn colt! I managed to get him into a narrow part of the school and grab a rein. He didn't like me holding him so we had a quick CTJ meeting whereby he behaved and then a few minutes later his rider turned up.


----------



## laurapratt01 (Oct 3, 2012)

I whole heartedly agree with the OP. I actually posted a similar response in one of the helmet vs no helmet threads! DanielDauphin, your posts are so well written and I love hearing your prospective! Great thread! Thanks!


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Quite often the worst accidents don't even happen in dangerous situations or involve dangerous horses - they are about being complacent and/or careless
A little girl we knew lost her spleen when she ran up behind her 120% bombproof reliable pony in the paddock to jump on it over its backside - something she'd done hundreds of time in the yard but the pony didn't see her coming and probably thought she was being attacked by another horse so kicked out in a knee jerk reaction. They didn't blame the pony
Even last night I walked close around the back of Willow to skip out a pile of poo in her stable and at the same time as she kicked at a mozzie and only just missed me - she didn't know I was there, she isn't a kicker or a biter but I was being lazy and nearly paid the price for that
One of the most predictable things about horses is that they are always unpredictable when you least expect it


----------



## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

OOOO MMMMM GOSH do people make excuses. Did you know that during the American Civil War they would discover casisson horses hitched to their dead fellows, standing with bullet wounds?
My old herd would stand next to cannons, traffic, crowds and never put a step wrong.
_*It's ALL about the training.*_
I am so sorry to hear about your niece, though the incident is not recent.
I am and have always been an animal lover, BUT I will not keep an animal that has been ruined which includes:
*cat* that bites, scratches, refuses to use a litter box
*dog* that attacks cats and horses--yes, I picked up one of These at a local shelter, and took him back!
*horse* with big fear issues--owned a mule like this once, but he loaded in a trailer nicely =b
*horse* with aggression
*horse* with training problems I cannot fix
and...oh, yeah
aggressive *rooster*--we eat those!!


----------



## Sony (May 10, 2014)

DanielDauphin said:


> The reality is that having control of your horse’s mind and his feet are the two most important things that can be done to keep you and yours safe.



I suppose it's also a given that to have those 2 things, you need to have a handle on controlling your own mind, as well.

Easier said than done!


----------



## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Corporal said:


> ...I will not keep an animal that has been ruined which includes:
> *dog* that attacks cats and horses--yes, I picked up one of These at a local shelter, and took him back!
> *horse* with big fear issues--owned a mule like this once, but he loaded in a trailer nicely =b
> *horse* with aggression
> ...


I agree about eating the aggressive roosters, because I like eating chickens anyway. ;-) But all that other stuff is usually fixable if you know how. Our family has always through the years taken animals with which other people had problems, and fixed them to our satisfaction, including horses that went through all the big trainers and ended up destined for euthanasia or dog food - "oh so dangerous" or "oh so unfixable" animals, which really weren't that hard to fix, and seemed grateful for ending up in a situation where someone "got" what the issue was, and worked them through it (usually it was people doing rush jobs on their training - and I really think most problem horses are only problems because of how people approached them). We couldn't take on the whole flood of animals on the scrapheap obviously; my father selected exceptionally athletic ones that clicked with him and went on to win races with nearly every one of them over 30 years, and the ones that didn't made great pleasure horses. We've only ever seen one horse in all that time that really, in my view, wasn't worth the effort because he was so _vile_ by nature rather than nurture, and he was home bred (ironically from a sweet mare). I just think that's so rare!

Other friends who rehabilitate horses say the same thing. Here's one with a horse she unfortunately recently lost to chronic laminitis:



















My friend adopted this magnificent OTTB a decade ago after being told it was totally crazy and incorrigible. She paid it a visit and didn't think so. Part of the problem was that this athletic animal required far more exercise than a "plodding" home could give him - many horses and dogs bred to work don't do well in homes where their need for exercise and stimulation isn't satisfied. Also the inexperienced handlers were afraid of the horse and had little idea how to train and ride it. Kym took this fellow home, spent some time bonding with him and giving him lots of TLC, and treated and trained him like a normal horse, and he behaved like a normal horse. She and he were well matched as both enjoyed long outings and a bit of daredevilry - and this made an excellent trail horse, jumper, and all-rounder for her. He was gentle enough for her to put her young kids on his back anytime - he knew the difference between children and serious riders, and adjusted himself beautifully for them. Rikki-Tikki had the sweetest temperament you could imagine in a horse - I adored this horse! Rode him myself a couple of times when we were down at the harbour with the horses. Not for inexperienced persons, who should stick to horses content to plod, but riding this horse I couldn't help thinking how people really can drive animals crazy, and then blame them for it instead of take responsibility.

Another very similar horse:










This is 28yo SB Romeo at our place last summer. He was out of the Victorian Broodmare of the Year when he was born back in 1984 and had a stack of famous siblings already racing in feature races. A big stable snapped him up for loads of money and put him through the usual impersonal cookie-making machine that's most of the racing industry here. When they trained him up for harness they were so keen to have him go fast quickly that they totally forgot to consider that a horse also needs to be trained to stop, and to settle, and not just be made speed-crazy. Then they found that the horse wouldn't stop, which was _so_ inconvenient - and so predictable! They tried rough correction, "we'll show you" and it made him crazier, to the point that he started jumping the track fences in pacing hopples with cart and driver attached, smashing everything to smithereens. (_Excellent_ jumper, this horse!) I'd have done the same in his place - they were using an electric whip at this stage instead of using their brains to figure out where they had gone wrong.

Long story short, my father picked him up from the meat auction aged 3. He already had the full sister, who went on to be his best ever harness mare. This gelding had been banned from the track but my father re-trained him and raced this horse. There were none of the old shenanigans. One thing we never did get out of him was his nervousness around the track, which had been so ingrained by bad experiences, so he only ran placings, having run his race in the stall, as they say. On the trail, totally different of course - none of the conditioned associations from a traumatic time. This horse was worth acquiring just for the lovely ride he was on a trail, and he was excellent over jumps - an ex-showjumping friend used to come just to ride him, and would have bought him in a flash, but we wouldn't part with him. Like my friend's Rikki-Tikki, he just has the sweetest disposition, if you treat him with tact and understanding instead of aggressive ignorance. We've had him at our place in retirement for three years now just because I like having him around. He follows me everywhere and sticks his head under my arm every chance he gets, and is best friends with our donkeys. I never need a halter to lead or worm him, he just tags along if I ask him to, and gives me an "if you really _have_ to" look when I grab his upper lip to give him his wormer. He'd live in our house if he could. ;-)










I could give numerous case studies like that. Bottom line: Most "crazy" horses were made crazy by people, and it's the people who should be getting shot, not the horses. :twisted: 

You'll all find this is my broken record, and I play it a lot, but it's true.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

When I first went to work at the place I spent 10 years my boss introduced me to his best mare and told me if she didn't bite me when I went in she'd kick me on the way out. With him and the stable manager she was wonderful
She'd seen every groom off that had gone there and I really needed that job
Hitting her made her worse so I just had to stick at making her see that I wasn't the enemy and a six months later she was one of the best horses I'd ever been around and probably still could say that of her even though she's long gone. 
She'd been abused in the past so much she'd become defensive - sometimes its just about knowing why a horse does what it does
You cannot change a rooster though - putting it in the oven is the best solution - but do kill, gut and pluck it first!!


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Many horses I have come across are scared in the stable, some are bluff but others would follow through. 

One was a jump racehorse that everyone hated. I felt sorry for him and started to do him. He was also a runaway on the gallops.

He was hard to catch in the stable and would show his backside and kick. I had seen him chased and hit or kicked so I never ever got angry or annoyed with him. He was one horse that I did tidbit, and after a short time he was fine with me in the stable. 

As for roosters, I agree. I have had more than one that were really nasty. One, Tyson was particularly nasty. We had him and his wives in the duck area. I had cleaned out their house and was taking the straw to the back to burn when Tyson came at me from behind. He scratched down my back drawing blood. He came at me a second time and I picked him up with the prongs pf the pitchfork, not sticking them into him. In one swoop I had that rooster off the ground, swung 180 and thrown into the duck pond! When he got to the side I wouldn't let him out for a while. 

Oddly enough he never attacked me again.


----------



## AprilLover123 (Mar 7, 2014)

Yes you should always were a helmet but you should also remember your cues they may save your life. I say a lady in a rodeo who fell off her horse and her boot was caught up in her stirrup. She would have been dragged to death but she said hoe and on commanded that horse stops just long enough for her to get her boot out of the stirrup. She was very luck that she could walk out of that arena and not carried on a stretcher.


----------



## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

As someone who enjoys problem horses and breaking colts, I always wear a helmet on a horse I know is either unbroke, a problem, or I have no clue about. I usually take off the helmet once I have a handle on the horse and feel confident in the soundness of their mind.


----------



## Paintedponies1992 (Nov 17, 2013)

> I always wear a helmet on a horse I know is either unbroke, a problem, or I have no clue about. I usually take off the helmet once I have a handle on the horse and feel confident in the soundness of their mind.


I was just about to put that too  I also wear a protective vest along with the helmet on a young or green broke horse. Rosie I know her body language and habits enough that I'll plod along on the trail without one, but if I'm doing any work in the arena I put it on just in case. I mainly use my protective vest and helmet on Apollo now and next year I'll be wearing it when I start to train Azula and Chloe.


----------



## Rob55 (Mar 6, 2014)

DanielDauphin said:


> When many people think about safety measures around horses, helmets are generally what come to mind. In truth, helmets are a great idea and a must for kids, but they truly are a last line of defense.
> 
> AMEN! My complaint is many barns encourage bad behavior. I've been to three barns recently to ride and every new horse mugged me for treats. A few months ago I took a lesson on a huge warmblood. We got along wonderfully in the arena, but he crowded me walking back to the stall after cooling down. I delibretly slowed down and stopped occasionally before we got to the stall he had the idea, but the trainer chasten me for making "the poor horse" walk so slow. Trainer is amazed when I preceded the horse in the stall and he didn't enter until invited.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rob55 (Mar 6, 2014)

Foxhunter said:


> I am inclined to agree that more accidents happen on the ground than falling from a horse and the biggest cause of these 'accidents' is complacency, taking things for granted and being blasé about what you are doing.
> 
> One of the most annoying injuries I received, and it was _totally_ my fault, was when in a rush I went to worm a pony. I grabbed his halter, shoved the wormer in the side of his mouth, he reared and, as I was facing him instead of facing the same way as him, he reared, I held on and he caught me under my jaw with his knee.
> 
> ...


----------



## Rob55 (Mar 6, 2014)

Sony said:


> I suppose it's also a given that to have those 2 things, you need to have a handle on controlling your own mind, as well.
> 
> Easier said than done!


Sony. It is about being in charge. Willing to be the leader. If you are willing to be the boss and not concerned about hurting the animal's feelings you are way ahead on the game. Then be willing to stay away from the ones with attitude no matter how pretty they are.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mochachino (Aug 14, 2012)

Yes to that third lesson! I had an accident about two years ago and I was wearing a helmet and ended up with a concussion. Unfortunately I still don't know what happened....I don't remember before the accident or the fall. I slightly remember getting myself up off the ground, and apparently I was rambling on about finding that "freaking" horse and getting back on. I didn't know my name, where I lived or where I was. I really to this day do not know what happened, I was told one story, but I am inclined to not believe it. I had dizzy spells for 6 months that almost floored me, and to this day I have memory problems that I believe stemmed from the accident. Without a helmet it could have been a major head injury. At the barn I ride at I am the only one who wears a helmet, I hate it, I sweat profusely. I have a couple of times mounted without one on, but it felt weird without a helmet on. At the same time I understand what you are saying about learning to be safe and knowing how to respond properly.


----------



## Paintedponies1992 (Nov 17, 2013)

I had the concussion thing happen to me too about two years ago :/ I was wearing a helmet and all i remember is on horse and then off horse with my back really sore and the horse looking at me, oh yeah and I couldn't move anything below my hips for a good few seconds which terrified me as I thought I broke something. My mom had to make me go to the hospital to get checked as I kept telling her I was fine. Found out I had a mild concussion and I couldn't remember how I fell off. Still can't remember, I've just pieced together what I believed happened from the bruises and the way i was laying when I 'came to', as I'd call it since I blacked out for a bit. So when I got Apollo I learned about protective vests and got one.


----------



## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

SueC, yes I know that most of those things are fixable, but most people new to horses do NOT know how to retrain these problems, don't have the patience, energy, time or money (to hire a trainer) to do so, and get discouraged and give up on horse ownership. This is the reality in 2014.
ALSO, when a trainer retrains and the owner does NOT keep up the new training, the horse will slide back into his old, bad habits, and become even harder to retrain.
We are not talking about the possibilities and joy of taking a "meat market" horse and making him into a joy to trail ride, or a champion show horse. *We are talking about the problems in buying a horse today.* I've owned/trained horses for almost 30 years. I'm not the expert that CHERIE is, or others here, but I have bought a sold ~35 horses in that time, including stinkers that nobody wanted, "Corporal", that I bought as a 4yo and paid $5 more than the meat market, broke him in and kept him until he died of a stroke at 27yo, and several other horses that were not worth my time retraining, so I sold them. TOO MANY people get the horse bug, buy the wrong horse, one not trained and seasoned for a beginner, and many of them go to the ER or end up in the hospital bc of this. Doctors can't fix everything. My broken humorous wasn't cast, but, instead they gave me a sling. It is 94% straight. =/ So much for "fixing a break caused by a horse." Endiku fractured her left wrist recently. That is a complicated break, and I truly hope that it heals correctly. Though hers wasn't caused by a horse, it certainly could have been bc she broke her fall with her left hand, just like being thrown.
Horses must be trained to be gentle around us, not cause excitement, like racing on a track. Too many new horse owners jump into it and then repent in leisure. I hope that my posts do NOT give a false picture of what a horse can do to you. I have learned some lessons from others, and some the hard way. I know of a horse owner who got into the bad habit of letting her horses run from the pasture right into their stalls. One time they literally ran over her DH and he has permanent brain injury. The horses weren't bad, but the owner was foolish. I could tell you many, many stories of such stupidity. PLEASE don't encourage newbies to think that they need to placate their "best friend", in equine form, or that every unwanted horse is a diamond in the rough. In order to train you need to know how to handle, how much pressure to put on a horse to get the result, and wisdom of what NOT to do.


----------



## DreaMy (Jul 1, 2014)

Whenever people say that I break easily (I really do) all I say back is it gives me more motivation to stay on!
I tend to not get on known problem horses *and that's ok*
My mare when she first came home decided to test her boundaries with being mouthy. My BO about to toss her hay cubes in the feeder realized what she was about to do and held the bucket midair and when C went to get mouthy she WHACKED her head against the bucket. Guess who stands at the back of the stall until her hay is in the feeder and BO has walked away? It doesn't take a lot but it takes just that once
Anyhow before I ramble too much: 
The mantra at my barn is "Be proactive not reactive" in other words just don't let it happen in the first place and then you don't have to scramble to get it together!


----------



## STT GUY (Apr 23, 2014)

Rob55 said:


> Foxhunter said:
> 
> 
> > I am inclined to agree that more accidents happen on the ground than falling from a horse and the biggest cause of these 'accidents' is complacency, taking things for granted and being blasé about what you are doing.
> ...


----------



## Sony (May 10, 2014)

Rob55 said:


> Sony. It is about being in charge. Willing to be the leader. If you are willing to be the boss and not concerned about hurting the animal's feelings you are way ahead on the game. Then be willing to stay away from the ones with attitude no matter how pretty they are.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Oh, I'm not blinded by their looks. My horse has way more white than I'd like, I surely didn't buy him for color...

My problem is that I'm just unsure and anxious. A weenie, if you will. I'm currently getting help with that, feels like I'm making progress. But we'll see a month from now, sending my boy to the OP for the basics, and I'll be learning how to interact with him. Very excited!


----------



## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Corporal said:


> ...The horses weren't bad, but the owner was foolish. I could tell you many, many stories of such stupidity.


So could many of us here. As I often say, >99% of problems with horses are caused by humans, not horses.




> PLEASE don't encourage newbies to think that they need to placate their "best friend", in equine form, or that every unwanted horse is a diamond in the rough.


I have never said such a thing - I think that's a misreading of my post. I share your concern about people being naïve or underprepared when it comes to working with horses. Also I think the movie industry gives laypeople unrealistic ideas about how horses can be trained or re-trained. They are often heavy on saccharine and very light on actual horsemanship.

There are good reasons people aren't allowed to drive cars on the public road until they have demonstrated competence at the operation of a motor vehicle and passed tests on the road rules. Similarly, I would recommend that people who are considering horse ownership already be competent at ridden work equivalent to at least elementary level dressage, basic jumping over low obstacles, and group trail riding at all paces, with a variety of different horses. This sets a good foundation for positive experiences of horse ownership, for horse and rider alike. And – the more information a person can acquire on different approaches to horsemanship, the better too, I think. It's easy to become insular otherwise, and carried on the current of whatever is common practice in your particular geographical area. 

But SB, I'm also concerned about the amount of good horses who go through some professional trainers (usually large-scale operations) and come out with loads of problems that make them dangerous to handle, and the usually miserable existence such animals have as a result unless they get picked up by someone with the time, inclination and skills to put them right. Calm, quiet persistence works exceptionally well as a training principle, as does the ethos that the horse is a sentient creature worthy of kindness and respect. To have willing and enthusiastic cooperation from a horse, and an actual partnership with it, is in an entirely different league to just having its servitude. It is also the safer, less accident-prone relationship of the two.

Over here we've seen an awful lot of rough handling and its results. We've also seen an awful lot of ignorance and its results (and often rough handling and ignorance go hand in hand). And unfortunately, these problems aren't confined to inexperienced people. From our observation here, an inexperienced person who loves horses and is willing to learn often makes a far better horseperson three years down the track than some of the people who actually get paid to train horses, have become rigid in their approaches, and perhaps have no regard for their spirit.


----------



## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

_I just wanted to reflect a bit more on gentle horsemanship, safety and other issues raised in this thread. I ruminate here on the influences in my own riding life, so skip this one if you prefer short posts! _ 

Gentle horsemanship is not a new idea. In the Ancient Greek world, Xenophon and others wrote about the idea of training horses gently, and about the importance of horses trusting their handlers and enjoying their work.  This sort of ethos also influenced classical continental riding schools in Europe.

I can retrospectively see the influence of such ideas even in the small rural German riding school where I had my first introduction to horse handling and riding at age 9. These were some of the basic rules that we were taught:

1) When collecting a horse for work, introduce yourself first: Stand at the horse's head, talk to it, let it sniff your hands, run your hand gently over its neck and/or give it a scratch – only then lead it out of its stall. A horse is not a bicycle.

2) Lead a horse from the shoulder, with clear voice cues – under no circumstances drag a horse around by the lead or reins. This is dangerous for the handler and degrading for the horse.

3) At all times, on or off the ground, communicate with your horse through body language, voice cues, etc. A horse is not a machine. Use correct and consistent aids, and when the horse responds correctly, stop the aid immediately and give your horse positive feedback, such as a warm, drawn-out “Good boy!”, running your hands along its neck, etc.

Safety rules for handling included the usual ones about maintaining a 100% awareness of your relative position to a 500kg animal, avoiding approaches directly from the front or rear, and talking to your horse. The principle of mechanical advantage, frequently needed when handling a horse in a tricky situation, was taught to prevent horses leading handlers rather than handlers leading horses, or horses getting loose – relative position to the horse, unbalancing forces applied to the side, threading of the lead over the nose of the horse, all those sorts of tricks; never engaging in a tug-of-war which you must inevitably lose but maintaining your relative position to the horse. Reading the horse's body language and forestalling potential problems rather than letting them develop was also drummed into us as students. When children weighing 30-40kg are handling the inevitable 16-18hh German Warmbloods which were the norm at German riding schools back then, this is essential, even when the horses are generally calm and well-trained.

The riding program was rigorous, and there were no mounting blocks. I remember doubtfully staring up at the stirrup which I was supposed to reach to get on a 17hh mare's back, and we were shown how to use momentum to smoothly get on a horse from the ground. The riding lessons consisted largely of military style group drill in elementary dressage, conducted in an arena. The first lesson was all walking, learning how to sit, handle the reins, move off, change direction and halt. Trotting was introduced from the second lesson on and was highly disappointing and stitch-inducing at first. Riding figures, transitions up and down, rein-back, turn on the forehand, riding away from the group and counter to the group, solo performances with the rest of the group watching, negotiating cavaletti and small jumps, lots of work without stirrups to develop rider balance, and rotating through all the different horses in the course of your lessons was how the basic programme operated. Only when you were considered competent at these things in the arena were you allowed on a trail. We got very sore from the constant demands in those lessons, but we also learnt an incredible amount in a short time. I think there's something to be said for people having high expectations of what their students are going to achieve. I compared notes with elementary school friends attending different riding schools, and my experience seems to have been the norm in the region, and probably much of Europe.

By this time, Swedish horsewoman Lisbeth Pahnke-Airosto was writing her Britta&Silver series, a set of novels aimed at horse enthusiastic children and teenagers with a large horsemanship teaching component woven right through the stories, which were based on Pahnke-Airosto's own experiences growing up riding in Scandinavia, and eventually working professionally with horses. This series was very successful in many European countries, but has unfortunately never been translated into English. It also espouses gentle training methods and understanding horse behaviour, and has positively influenced many young horse riders. Pahnke-Airosto is now in her late 60s and still riding – jumping is her thing – and writing for Swedish horse magazines. Her partner designs show jumping courses. In a Christmas card she sent me a few years ago, her diminutive beaming figure stands against a towering arena jumping obstacle. She wrote of a recent adventure riding a racehorse on a track at speed, which made us smile. I digress, but it's the kind of thing I find inspirational.

I'd like to hear anyone else's experiences learning in riding schools, and also from people who were largely self-taught: I have met a number of people who grew up rurally and learnt to ride very competently, and develop super relationships with their horses, without the benefit of much formal training. So far, the common denominators I have identified for that to be successful is growing up with animals, the possession of commonsense, empathy and independent, critical thinking, and the hunting out of information, written or otherwise, on horse training and riding.

Personally I had six months at the riding school I wrote about before I spent a year and a half riding a lot of lovely trails with family and friends on a very kind, very forward 12-year-old French Trotter mare my family bought after she had produced five foals for a local breeding/racing stable. Then we all moved to Australia, where my family established their own breeding/racing stable, and I bought an Arabian filly to train up for riding. Gentle horsemanship had a number of prominent proponents in Australia in the early 1980s: Robbie Murray wrote _Training Australian Horses_ (originally published as _The Gentle Art of Horsebreaking_ in 1976), which was a very useful reference, along with the late Tom Roberts' marvellous _Horse Control_ series (_The Young Horse_, _The Rider_, _The Bit_, _Reminiscences_). I'm not going to recount the methods here, just highly recommend the books written about them. They are most helpful, with lots of practical advice and case studies. These methods have always worked for us, and produced calm and cooperative horses who enjoyed working with people.

Our 40+ group here at HF predominantly consists of people riding and training with gentle, sympathetic methods. Here is one HF member who has impressed me with her manner with horses, and with the rapid progress she is making educating a recently acquired mustang from scratch. I noticed she is using food rewards as part of her programme, which I generally don't, but it is working very well for them, and the horse is calm and respectful of her as a result of the calm, consistent, respectful handling he is receiving. The mutual good feeling between horse and handler are very apparent, and I find these two a joy to watch. It's great to know that there are unsung people all over the world quietly doing such work. 

Augustus the Mustang | Adventures of Augustus the Mustang

Hope you enjoy her informative blog!


----------



## Eole (Apr 19, 2013)

Thanks Daniel for posting this interesting thread.
I agree with most that has been posted and am an unfortunate example of it.
I've had my horses at home for 13 years and became complacent about safety.

It was an accident waiting to happen. 3 days ago on my way back from a trail ride, my new saddle pad slipped from under the saddle (mistake #1)
I dismounted, horse was reactive, I wasn't in control of mind nor feet (mistake #2) I ignored the tell-signs as "I know" this horse so well.
I crossed in front of him, way too close, to get to the hanging saddle pad. (mistake #100). He spooked, threw me on the ground and ran over me. Got stepped on my knee and hit on the helmet. Nothing broken, out of riding for a couple weeks. I was lucky and it's such a wake-up call.

Lesson learned. Accidents do happen more on the ground. Safe handling, training good ground manners and ALWAYS being aware of what's going on and what could go wrong at every instant. Helmet and safety vest (which I wear) don't replace good judgment.


----------



## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

SueC, it IS true that anybody can hang out a "Horse Trainer" shingle, and some do ruin otherwise good horses. I agree.
I also agree about gentling.
It's good to discuss these topics. I am always willing to listen to differing opinions bc I'm old enough to know that I DON'T know it ALL!! =b


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I think there are horse people, just as there are dog people, cat people, etc. I don't like cats. I get along with them well enough, but I can't imagine having a relationship with one, even though I grew up with cats in the house. In fact, that is what they were to me - cats in the house.

I am a dog person. I grew up with dogs as well as cats, but I sought out the companionship of dogs the way my sister sought out the companionship of cats - and yes, cats obviously can be great companions. They sure adore my sister. But since I enjoy dogs, I've continued to own them - usually plural - and read about them and think about how they behave and try to learn from them as well as teach them. That goes with being a dog person and owning dogs, even if one doesn't compete, show, etc.

There have always been people who enjoy the companionship of horses, and those who do not. Those who enjoy them will typically try to work with them instead of simply dominating them. It is possible to enjoy them, though, while still having no natural ability.

That describes me. My wife rides 6 times a year, and she is better at handling horses than I am. In riding, I have no natural ability. None. I started riding at 50...well, mostly. I sometimes had a chance to ride horses at stables and ranches in my teens, and took some jumping lessons in my 20s, although I'm pretty sure the pretty instructor was doing her best to get me killed before I could have kids. Looking back, I'm not sure I blame her...but for all practical purposes, I started at 50.

That is a tough age to start something like riding, particularly when one has a total lack of talent. Horses have their own language, and learning languages at 50 isn't the same as learning at 6. Also, riding involves a lot of muscle memory, and I'm at an age where I can remember the 60s better than I can what I ate for breakfast, or even if I ate breakfast at all!

Nor can I imagine learning horses the way SueC did. I'm not sure buying a spooky Arabian mare and then expecting her to teach me how to ride was the best route - I certainly don't recommend it - but it may have been the route I needed. Littauer was known as a jump instructor, but if you read what he wrote, he really used jumping to teach riding. Maybe spooks, spins, bolts and sideways jumping is what I needed to learn riding. Trying to train the boogers out of Mia's mind may have been critical to force me to try to understand a horse instead of simply dominating it. Getting hurt early on may have been what I needed to take safety seriously.

But when it comes to gentleness, and working with the horse, I think it really comes down to whether or not you enjoy their company. I've met folks who could get results from horses in a way I never will, but who seem to leave the horse sour in the process. They generate obedience, but not companionship and willing, cheerful obedience.

The Old West was famous for breaking horses fast and hard, but one well known breaker said it came down to time and money. He could do a much better job if allowed to work a horse the way he wanted, but "_No one wants a $40 dollar finish on a $20 dollar horse!_"

In the modern west, it seems, we too often see folks who want a $40 finish, but who want to be able to apply it with a spray that they buy in a can from a "natural horsemanship trainer" - and no, I'm not picking on any individual. I know the lady who worked with Mia & Trooper has turned down clients for wanting a good horse but who didn't want to invest the time to get one.

One of the farriers I've used lost a client a few years back when she was on her 12th horse in 3 years. As he trimmed the horse, she told him, "I just can't seem to find the right horse!" He replied, "Seems to me your horses can't find the right rider!" That was his last trip to her place.

End of rambling, for now. I'm hungry, so I guess I did forget to eat breakfast....


----------



## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

bsms said:


> ...I'm at an age where I can remember the 60s better than I can what I ate for breakfast, or even if I ate breakfast at all!


My husband says to tell you, "If you remember the 1960s then you weren't there!" 

Thank you for writing another thoughtful, informative and entertaining post. Yes, horses probably teach us more than we teach them!  And since you're still alive, spooky mare and all, perhaps you're not as untalented as you think? ;-)


----------



## NonTypicalCPA (May 15, 2014)

This thread has been very informative for a greenie like myself. I'd love to hear some examples of gentle vs non-gentle forms of training. I like to develop a relationship with my animals and try with love and a firm hand to get good behavior from them. It's worked with my dogs and kids (I know, there not animals), but horses are new to me.


----------



## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

NTC, people, dogs, horses, donkeys are all classed biologically as "social animals" and dealing with them probably has a lot of overlap!  A kind, warm, but assertive approach that works for your dogs and children is probably not that far removed from what works for horses. But then again, people also have very different perceptions of how children are best brought up, and dogs are best trained.

E.g. the whole debate about dominance-based training in dogs, which was based on incorrectly extrapolated research on the social hierarchy of captive wolves, and has gone on to become culturally embedded through popular fiction, professional trainers, media etc, affecting underlying thinking about our relationships with each other and with companion animals in general. So while I don't personally train dogs like Cesar Milan does (my training, dogs or horses, is based primarily on reinforcing positive behaviour), I also think that in many cases he really improved some of the ridiculous situations people had with their dogs on his show, and one thing I really am a fan of is his emphasis on animals needing lots more active exercise and mental stimulation than their sedentary owners are giving them (applies to a lot of domesticated horses as well).

It's just that there are some scientific misconceptions behind aspects of his sort of training approach, and research indicates positive reinforcement methods work better overall than methods based on simplistic perceptions of social hierarchy, and avoid collateral damage, and result in better relationships between the two species interacting!

I don't think Cesar Milan is at the extreme end of the spectrum either - far from it. I think he genuinely likes dogs, and wants to improve their lives - a lot of the dogs on his shows are basically treated as pseudo-infants instead of dogs by their often fruitloop owners, and this is not good, and it's the extreme of the passive/submissive spectrum. The other extreme end of the spectrum to me is someone who doesn't actually like or respect dogs just kicking them around because they don't have any other ideas for influencing behaviour, and/or they have a sadistic or twisted kind of mind.

A few interesting links to those training debates in dogs:

http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/iss...s_20416-1.html

http://www.livescience.com/40453-dog...ot-alphas.html

http://io9.com/why-everything-you-kn...rong-502754629


----------



## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

NonTypicalCPA said:


> This thread has been very informative for a greenie like myself. I'd love to hear some examples of gentle vs non-gentle forms of training. I like to develop a relationship with my animals and try with love and a firm hand to get good behavior from them. It's worked with my dogs and kids (I know, they're not animals), but horses are new to me.


Glad to hear it. Then study up on horses bc they are prey animals and dog training does not completely transfer over.
Horses are reactive, like rabbits, except that they outweigh us 8x-10x, so we can get hurt easily.
You can develop a relationship with a horse by being kind and by lots and lots and lots of repetition. For example, I moved to have my horses in my back yard 14 years ago. The old herd has passed on, my new herd of 3 are easy keepers, but I feed them some grain every night just bc they look for me and come to be fed. I can walk out in the pasture at an time and my horses walk to ME to be haltered. They have full turnout 1/2 of the year, and if they aren't by their feed buckets, I bang on the fence with a metal coffee can. I train with ANYTHING that makes me the leader and the horses the followers. I was recently pounding in metal gardening stakes and they all traveled the pasture to come to me, thinking it was graining time, so conditioning does work, but I suggest that you do very little of it with a food incentive. When your horse trusts you he WANTS to please you.
You must train your horse to be gentle around you and you must not ever get between two horses playing OR fighting. What they do to each other usually won't hurt them, but will put YOU in the ER. Whenever my horses are turned out and there is a storm or someone is playing with firecrackers or other explosives (like around July 4th, and especially when it's sporadic) I carry a training whip with me. They KNOW to move away from it bc of their training and I WILL hit any of my horses that is moving too close and too fast. I have owned/trained horses for nearly 30 years, and they don't get cared for if I am dead, so it's in their own best interest.
Horses know where they are in the pecking order and most of them want to move up when the horse ahead of them leaves, or the owner doesn't establish leadership. You horse WILL lead you, if you don't lead him/her.
(I did own one horse who was content to stay #2 when my herd leader passed away. Horse #3 moved up to #1--unusual, but not unheard of.)
Lessons help SO MUCH to pick the brain of your instructor.
PATIENCE is your best friend when training a horse. Take TOO LONG instead of looking for short cuts. I suggest that you look into Clinton Anderson's training method bc he translates horse training to plain English very well. His book is very helpful to fix very common obedience problems.
Clinton Anderson's Downunder Horsemanship: Establishing Respect and Control for English and Western Riders: Clinton Anderson, Ami Hendrickson: 9781570762840: Amazon.com: Books


----------



## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

One for NTC: We're just discussing the whole concept of gentle horse training etc at rather unusual length here: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/need-training-advice-strong-willed-yearling-461114/ ;-)


And Corporal, I agree with the vast majority of what you've said, just I suspect you subscribe more to dominance-based training theories than I do. Pesky horses in meadow, another trick is to helicopter a lead rope over the top of your head (rope only - keep the metal snap end in your hand). It keeps horses well clear of you! ;-) Also works well when someone else's pubescent colt foals think it's wonderful to jump up at humans as you are walking through the field. If they follow you at all, it will be at a respectful and safe distance! ;-)

PS: No idea who Clinton Robertson is. ;-)


----------



## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

...Anderson, that is... ;-) Terribly out of date, am I. The trainer I quote the most was born in 1900!


----------



## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

What's the name of the book?


----------



## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

You mean the excerpts I posted on the other thread? That was from _Horse Control - The Young Horse: The Handling, Breaking-In and Early Schooling of Your Own Young Horse_ by Tom Roberts (who wrote three other books; one on advanced riding/training, one on bits and one on reminiscences and "problem" horses).

Actually that's pertinent to the safety aspect of the thread, as calm horses are safer horses!


----------



## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

A Parelli devotee, supposed to be level 3, whatever that means, wanted to play around with my twh. Now this horse has always been very respectful of space. Almost immediately he was nosing her belly. Why he tho't he could with her I don't know as he's never done this with anyone else either. I immediately moved him away and told her that behaviour is not permitted. I had this mistaken impression she knew better. Later that day he tried it with me and I promptly drove him away. He hasn't done it since.


----------



## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

SueC said:


> You mean the excerpts I posted on the other thread? That was from _Horse Control - The Young Horse: The Handling, Breaking-In and Early Schooling of Your Own Young Horse_ by Tom Roberts (who wrote three other books; one on advanced riding/training, one on bits and one on reminiscences and "problem" horses).
> 
> Actually that's pertinent to the safety aspect of the thread, as *calm horses are safer horses!*


Agreed. I'll look into getting a copy, thanks!


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I do not cRe whether you are training dogs, horses or humans. It takes effort on behalf of the trainer and besides that consistency.

I was told, many moons ago, that you cannot teach anything unless the trainee wants to learn and this is very true. 

I like Cesar Milan, he is working on the psychological side rather then the training. Once that is right the training is easy because the dog wants to please the leader.

It is much the same with horses. I have more than once had horses that have been messed up mentally. Most of these will be resistant, barn sour, and bad tempered. Before I can do anything to help them they have to learn respect and from respect, trust. 
I, as the trainer, have to be consistent with what I ask and what I correct. As long as I am consistent and correct the little things *every time,* the major things disappear, the horse seems to think that it is not worth trying on a big thing because it cannot get away with the little things. 

I always start in the stable, I will get the horse to stand at the back whilst I do things in the front, if it moves it has to go back to the correct spot, every time even of it has only taken half a step. This leads to asking it to move over, untied but staying at the back. Then the door is opened and the horse has to stand in the correct place.
This leads to me being able to walk behind the horse and just telling it "Over." And it moves on the forehand then walks forward a couple of steps so it is still standing at the back. Corrections are firm and fair, no rough house or screaming, just verbal and body language. 

When you have a horse that kicks and after a couple of days you can give it its hard feed and muck it out whilst it is eating and when you go behind it it automatically moves over to allow you to do so, without a thought of lifting a leg at you, then you know you are on the right path.


----------



## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Foxhunter said:


> I do not cRe whether you are training dogs, horses or humans. It takes effort on behalf of the trainer and besides that consistency.
> 
> I was told, many moons ago, that you cannot teach anything unless the trainee wants to learn and this is very true.
> 
> ...


Off topic but! I find it really interesting that the dog forum people loathe Millan just as we hate Parelli. They claim he is a terrible trainer who's techniques are all wrong and outdated.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

What I like most about CM is how he believes that most important is the human's attitude and belief in themselves. 

When I have been asked to help with a horse problem on the ground, people are amazed at how fast I get results. This is not because of anything I do that is different but because I have absolutely no doubt that I will get my way, that no matter what the horse does, I do not get flustered, angry or frustrated. 
I can also read the body language. I know the difference with a horse that is saying "I'm not sure." And the one that says "I'm not going to." 

I was asked by a friend if I could help a woman load her horse - they had been trying for three days to no avail. I went down and first thing I noticed was that there were a heck of a lot of people there offering advice! 
None knew me and mutterings of "Who does she think she is?" And others were being whispered so I could hear them, non polite!
I went into the stable with the horse, corrected his moving before being asked, told all the onlookers to keep well away, walked the horse to the ramp. He stopped head went up and he was expecting a fight. The loudest mouthed onlooker called out he needed a rope and a whip, I did nothing but stand there and it took me no more than five minutes to have him loaded. He wasn't sure , me keeping totally cool and just thinking him loading odd more than all the ropes and whips. 
The comments consisted of "That was a fluke!" So I unloaded him and walked him straight in. I them asked loud mouth to load him and he couldn't.

A few weeks later loudmouth bought a horse to find it would not load, I went to load it, this horse was just being plain obstinate so when he planted one good crack with a lunge whip around his back legs and in he went. 

Any trainer whether it is Cesar Milan with dogs, Parelli, Roberts, Anderson and the rest or Jo Frost, Super Nanny, have this inner confidence in their ability to get the right results there is never a hesitation in their belief.

As for those who believe CM is outdated and has the wrong training methods, I would like to see how they deal with dangerous dogs and turn them around in such a short time.


----------



## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Foxhunter said:


> As for those who believe CM is outdated and has the wrong training methods, I would like to see how they deal with dangerous dogs and turn them around in such a short time.


That was exactly my question to many of them an literally their response was. "CM's techniques do produce fast results but not lasting. It takes months and even years to correctly rehabilitate dogs"

They seem to think that the quickest route is the least desirable. They are ALL about positive reinforcements. The when it doubt give a treat method. No physical correction, no dominating, no nothing. Just...treats and love. 

Apparently the "pack" mentality training is very out dated and incorrect.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I don't know anything about CM but when fast results work with a trainer and then fail for the owner later on down the line its usually because the owner has allowed things to slide back to the way they were when the problem began.
You have to be consistent with the way you treat a horse or a dog. With some bad behavior is just lack of training - they don't know any better - but there are horses that will always take a mile if you give them an inch no matter how forcefully they were treated as soon as they get with someone who isn't so dominant they go back to old habits.


----------



## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

jaydee said:


> I don't know anything about CM *but when fast results work with a trainer and then fail for the owner later on down the line its usually because the owner has allowed things to slide back to the way they were when the problem began.
> *You have to be consistent with the way you treat a horse or a dog. With some bad behavior is just lack of training - they don't know any better - but there are horses that will always take a mile if you give them an inch no matter how forcefully they were treated as soon as they get with someone who isn't so dominant they go back to old habits.


I love this statement Jaydee. All too often when you train for the public after the horse returns home. You get a call a few weeks or a month later "my horse is doing __________ again! I thought you fixed it!". 

That's why it's important to work with the owner AND the horse the last couple weeks. To really instill in the owner the new way of doing things so it doesn't go right back to where they started.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Been there done that and made a lot of money out of it!!!
Unfortunately we found that sometimes the best way to solve these boomerang type problems was to encourage the owner to sell the horse and buy something more suitable for the way they wanted to treat them - you can often change a horses behavior a lot easier than you can the owners!!!


----------



## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

jaydee said:


> Been there done that and made a lot of money out of it!!!
> Unfortunately we found that sometimes the best way to solve these boomerang type problems was to encourage the owner to sell the horse and buy something more suitable for the way they wanted to treat them - you can often change a horses behavior a lot easier than you can the owners!!!


I've always said the easiest part of training for the public is the horses!


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

.Delete. said:


> That was exactly my question to many of them an literally their response was. "CM's techniques do produce fast results but not lasting. It takes months and even years to correctly rehabilitate dogs"
> 
> They seem to think that the quickest route is the least desirable. They are ALL about positive reinforcements. The when it doubt give a treat method. No physical correction, no dominating, no nothing. Just...treats and love.
> 
> Apparently the "pack" mentality training is very out dated and incorrect.


I as bull doo doo to that answer! 

A woman I was helping with her Staffordshire Bull Terrier, would agree with me! The dog would jump up amd thump you with all four feet in the chest when she met you. The woman tried to correct her and would pull back on the leash. I told her to let her do it to me and when the ***** jumped at me I used my knee under her butt and flipped her over, she tried it twice and them sat at my feet waiting for a fuss - which she got. She has never done it to anyone else. 

I would like to see them tackle a really vicious dog with a bag of treats and love.


----------



## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

When I brought a St. B pup home at 6 weeks, hubby soon became the training issue. This pup was too cute so hubby let him get away with things. I said nothing the first week then decided it was time to lay down the law. I reminded him that one day this dog could hit a hundred pounds and that these behaviours wouldn't be so cute then. He left the training up to me and by the time the pup was a year old I'd run out of ideas. He was absolutely the nicest dog to have around. And so are my horses.


----------



## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Interesting discussion. One comment: Summing up training methods that operate chiefly on positive reinforcement of desired behaviour, and not allowing an animal to profit from undesired behaviour, as all “treats and love” or “love and cuddles” is as inaccurate as describing Cesar Milan as a “brute who bullies animals into submission.” Neither show a thorough understanding of the methods being criticised, and both mischaracterise these methods as being at either ridiculous extreme end of the spectrum, which they are actually not. This is a common pattern in human discourse about conflicting value systems to which there are strong attachments, and it is very easy to slip into _because_ it is so human.

When Alfred Wegener first proposed the idea of continental drift, he was ridiculed by his learned colleagues. _“Continents are solid! They are heavy! How could they possibly move?”_ they cried, and lampooned him. He actually died ostracised by the scientific community at the time. But... later research proved him correct, and today it is accepted as mainstream science, not the lunatic fringe. Think about Galileo, detained as a heretic for much of his life for suggesting that the earth moves around the sun, not vice versa. Think about Darwin. How much better things would have been, if the critics had actually made solid efforts to understand the points of view that opposed their own. We can see that with the benefit of hindsight, and it looks like a no-brainer. But as humans, we all tend to do it.

This is just a thought, not intended as finger-pointing or as a personal criticism of anyone here. I suspect the “opposing sides” here have more in common than they imagine, in practical terms. Like, we all agree on the importance of leadership in animal training. We just might have different ideas on how to go about it. Understanding those differences, and the reasons for them, is interesting and educational, and benefits everybody.


----------



## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

SB: Yep, very common. I once had that discussion with someone who thought it was "cruel" to (gently but assertively) correct a pushy orphaned foal. They thought it was so cute when the as-yet toothless 30kg little colt put his ears back and directed gummy bites at them. It became an established behaviour and the people handling him got bowled over and even needed stitches several times when the "cute" little thing grew up. They totally learnt from the experience and set boundaries on every horse ever after. A stitch in time saves nine, as they say.

One mare we had, when her foal tried to do that to her when nursing, she laid her ears back at first, then unceremoniously booted the foal over the fence in a picture-book arc. Her foal drank politely after that, and she only ever had to put her ears back after that. Another mare got the same results without booting others dramatically (she just stood and defended her ground), and unlike the first mare I mentioned, was super friendly with all the horses when they behaved, and well liked by them all, and totally into mutually grooming with everybody. Her limits were equally well enforced, but not using such dramatic methods.  So she was (and is) the first choice paddock buddy for any horse needing a "Supernanny."


----------



## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I read an interesting article on the comparison of intelligence in various animals. Horses ranked rather low. When the test was questioned it turned out the test was designed for a predator, not a prey animal. When the test was run in a way that meant something to the horse, it scored high while the prey animal scored low. This just confirms that we need to be pack leaders to dogs and herd leaders to horses and treat each in ways that have meaning to them.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Horses obviously (IMHO) lack abstract reasoning to any degree. If my horses are wandering around loose, and I go into their corral and put pellets in their buckets, they may stand at the corral panel that is in a direct line to the buckets, and need to be chased around to 'find' the open gate. That may be a good thing...I'm not sure I want it to be obvious to Mia that she could kick me into the next county without exerting herself!

However, I think they are vastly more aware of their surroundings and to any changes. They have excellent memories. Mia has been known to spook when one Palo Verde tree blossomed (out of a hundred), and then spook at the same tree a few weeks later when it LOST its flowers! They can pick up emotions and even thoughts almost telepathically. When Mia is in her "Anything you want, boss" mood, she'll turn, accelerate and slow before I give any conscious cue.

That is a type of intelligence, but it isn't what we think of as intelligence since it does not mirror ours.

BTW - I just ordered a third one of Tom Roberts' books today: Horse Control Reminiscences: "A collection of stories from Tom Roberts recounting his efforts at training and riding horses in India during military stints, as well as horse training and equestrian sport as it pertains to Australia."

I managed to sneak my latest bit in the house (and put 2 out in the garage) without being caught Thursday, but I'm not sure the 4 books involving horses (3 on western riding and Mr Roberts's book) can arrive unnoticed by the wife this coming week.


----------



## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I too had observed the direct line to feed behaviour. Yet if a mare's foal is placed thus, the mare will figure out to go to the opening as she runs back and forth. My Shetland mare, who'd never foaled, was handy and ducking under the electric fence and getting out. But later she'd stand and cry for help to get back in. I ignored her and she watched as her two herdmates were heading for their evening meal. Much to my surprise, she suddenly took off running along the fence farther and farther away, picking up speed. She rounded the far corner and there was a low spot which enabled her to easily duck under the wire. Pretty smart in my books.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

jaydee said:


> I don't know anything about CM but when fast results work with a trainer and then fail for the owner later on down the line its usually because the owner has allowed things to slide back to the way they were when the problem began.
> You have to be consistent with the way you treat a horse or a dog. With some bad behavior is just lack of training - they don't know any better - but there are horses that will always take a mile if you give them an inch no matter how forcefully they were treated as soon as they get with someone who isn't so dominant they go back to old habits.


I agree with you. Bad behaviour whether horses, human or dog is caused by bad 'parenting'. 

Training is an on going thing. 

The last time my mother slapped me I was 22. It was Christmas Day. Dad had been out all morning delivering presents to family and friends. When he returned he was somewhat the worse for drink. (He wasn't a drinker so it didn't take a lot!) I remarked "Dad' 'issed!" Mum's immediate reaction was to grab my arm, pull it out tight and slap me several times - I, slap, hate, slap, that, slap word, slap! 
My reaction was to instantly cry because when we were little and got a slap if we didn't cry we got another! 
Mum quickly apologised and I laughed, especially as the word was then used on TV. 
Mum, at the age of 93 was not slow to reprimand me when I swore, so, as I said training should never stop! 

Problem is that so many are not prepared to correct let alone discipline. It takes effort to follow it through. They do not realise that when rules are made and adhered to and it is fair, the recipient understands where they stand and respect develops. Once the latter is established then th boundaries can widen.



Saddlebag said:


> I read an interesting article on the comparison of intelligence in various animals. Horses ranked rather low. When the test was questioned it turned out the test was designed for a predator, not a prey animal. When the test was run in a way that meant something to the horse, it scored high while the prey animal scored low. This just confirms that we need to be pack leaders to dogs and herd leaders to horses and treat each in ways that have meaning to them.


I agree with you. I follow many of these so called 'research' results and think that those organising them know nothing about the animals they are testing!


----------

