# Collection without bridle



## equesjumping (Aug 6, 2017)

Hello! 
So recently I've been riding without a saddle and bridle, just a plain neckrope. I'm doing this in order to teach/train myself how to use my legs and nothing else to control the horse. Buuuuuttt.... *I have no clue how to collect a horse without any type of bridle.* All I ever did was wiggle my fingers a bit and it usually did the trick. None of my trainers said anything about it.
Now, when I'm in this situation, it's kinda annoying to see how my mare's head pops up all the time and won't go down+how she doesn't want to slow down a bit.
So, *what are/is the experiences/advice?*


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Personally I don’t think you can seek collection without out some contact...it’s an interesting question though.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

You can, achieve that collection without a bridle, as that is what is expected western.
However, that is the end result, after having first used a bridle to teach that collection, giving the horse a chance to stay correct, while dropping bit contact, taking up bit contact again, when he falls apart.
At first you only get a stride or so, before you need to pick up contact again, but you build on that
Eventually, that horse will stay correct, with seldom needing to have that bit contact picked up, riding off of seat and legs alone, keeping frame and collection.
However, I know of no way of doing so, without first training traditionally, using a bit, driving with legs as needed,holding when needed, until the horse learns to keep frame and collection, without the aid of a bit
There is the incorrect idea, that you can ride a horse right from the start, without either a bosal or a bit, thus riding brildeless and achieve those end results of a horse, riding in frame and collected with nothing on his head. That is not very possible, in my books.
It is like expecting a kid to do calculus,before he has learned even simple arthmetic


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

if you teach, WITH a bridle, how to collect, AND use seat cues, you ween the horse off the bridle cues, but keep the seat cues. use less and less bridle, and soon the hrose will cue off of seat alone, but yo have to have the two connected to begin with.

Do you know how to collect your horse with a bridle?

and, what do want this for? is it basically that you want your hrose to slow down with just falling forward?


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Collection in the English/dressage sense (not self carriage which is a step towards collection) cannot be achieved without a bridle. The bridle can be bitless but you can't ride a horse between your leg and your hand without something to 'ride the horse into'
Classical dressage rider/trainer Sylvia Loch once described collection as having the horse like a spring between your leg and your hand. Its this technique that produces energy that then gets contained to produce elevation.


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## Filou (Jan 16, 2014)

I would teach the horse to respond to a few seat and leg cues. One would be extending and collecting the trot based on the speed of my posting. I would also teach so slow down the gaits if I sit and speed up in a half seat or two point. I consider both of those really subtle cues. 
Next I would use my leg, get the horse to learn to round its belly up with a certain leg cue, usually for me I stretch as far down under it's belly as I can with my heel and do an upward bump with both legs. 
I would only do that after being sure that the horse can bend around your legs and do other more basic leg cues. 
I would also start with a bridle as people have said, and I would try to transition the feeling from the bridle to the seat. 
Then imagine you still have a bridle on the horse, even if you don't. I use this trick with horses when I free lunge them, I pretend there's an invisible line to stop or turn them around and I swear it works!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I get the classic English way of riding the horse into the bridle, for collection, but, it can be taken on step further, with that training end goal in mind, of riding western,on a loose rein, where that bit barrier becomes invisible, taken to be there, even when it is not. The way the horse is taught to respond to a curb, with the rein hand more up, helps to facilitate that.
The Op has to decide as to what her end goal is- to ride collected in classic dressage manner, or to ride a western horse, collected, on a loose rein.
I accept that western, we don't ask for the eventual degree of collection, required in a Grand Prix horse, as the end performance goals are not the same
However, a western riding horse, doing a series of straight line lead changes, with cadence, without changing topline and on a loose rein, is collected, same as a horse riding a difficult tight trail pattern on a loose rein. If that horse was not collected, no way would the horse be able to do those complicated lope overs, transitions, ect,on a trail pattern that is very tight and technical.


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## horseylover1_1 (Feb 13, 2008)

I don't have experience with this (yet), but I have been doing a lot of research on it, as I hope to do this with my personal horse someday. 

I'll deviate from the collection for a minute and the "she doesn't want to slow down a bit" part.

I assume you only ride in an enclosed arena for safety reasons. So it sounds like your rides are more "let's jump on, have fun, see what happens." Nothing necessarily wrong with that, I have done it with my own horse in the past. But what can happen is that you turn into a passenger - not a rider. The stop/slow down should come from your seat, anyway. If you watch advanced Western riders, especially reiners, their horses are taught to stop primarily from their seat. A lot of times, there is little or sometimes no contact with the reins when they ask for a stop. That comes from practice, practice, and more practice _with_ a bridle on. You ask with your seat first, then reinforce your request by pulling on the reins. Eventually the horse will learn to stop from your seat. 

And I think that principle idea will help you with collection as well. You can watch a million videos on Youtube of bridleless reining performances and see you can achieve a certain level of collection without a bridle, but that comes from gradually weaning your horse off of it. Not taking the bridle off one day and trying to practice collection without it.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Theoretically it is possible to teach a horse collection without a bridle. The hard part is that you have to somehow teach the horse what it is that you want. 
A book I am reading about dressage makes the point that horses all know how to collect, we just have to let them know what it is we are asking them to do. 

I am not sure what your definition of collection is. Perhaps you just mean moving forward with the head lowered and the neck curved, which is not collection but that would not be too difficult to teach a horse without a bridle. 
You would have to connect a verbal cue or clicker with a reward, and then teach the horse a cue for that posture. You could for example press on the top of one side of the withers, and wait until the horse lowered the head on his own at some point (either from the ground or saddle). Then if you've taught your horse the word "good," or that a clicker sound means a reward, you can keep rewarding whenever the horse connects the cue to that posture until he understands. Then do it during forward motion.

It probably would be easiest to connect a head and neck posture you want with a command from the ground, then once the horse is very good at it, do it from his back. Later, add movement.

Of course this brings up once again what collection is. Is it bringing the hind legs further under the body with more engagement as the horse moves? A book I am reading points out that a horse such as a Standardbred trotter can engage the hind legs tremendously with great hock flexion and the legs far under the body, but not be collected at all. And that horses in piaffe barely engage the hind legs but are extremely collected.









I think the man below has a pretty good definition (for dressage). He says collection is a shortening of the body caused by the coiling under of the horse's pelvis. The tucking under of the pelvis is in his definition the primary feature. Collection also teaches the horse to use his braking muscles to inhibit his forward motion.








None of that requires a bridle, but you will have to be creative to teach a horse to do it without one.

The western definition of collection requires that horses use the braking muscles to slow their movement without shortening their bodies. This leads to horses that can do maneuvers such as flying changes in a downhill posture rather than uphill.

If you want to teach your horse that he has the freedom to make choices, not every horse will choose to do what you want without enough incentive.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

The western definition of collection requires that horses use the braking muscles to slow their movement without shortening their bodies. This leads to horses that can do maneuvers such as flying changes in a downhill posture rather than uphill.


Sorry, not true.
If you never sat on a western hrose, truly collected, felt that lift, where you are actually sitting higher, how the heck can you make such a statement?
You are confusing topline, shoulder up, with head up, due to the natural conformation and how that neck ties in.
It is also pretty elementary, that collection is not just engagement from behind, driving up, without containing the energy generated, by an actual bit, or the learned response of containment by that bit
Race horses run all the time with maxium stride , driving up, but are obviously not collected and running on their front end.
Please explain how you could do a series of collected straight line lead changes, on a horse moving downhill, strung out??
We are not talking of a 'cowboy change, done out of speed and direction change!
This picture is from a person, evaluating modern dressage, and states that quite a few horses, even doing very advanced maneuvers, are on their front end
There is incorrectness in all disciplines, nONE are exempt, nor is dressage some holy Grail

I am not knocking dressage, recognize the ability and training of an upper dressage horse, just tired as it being some Golden standard, flawless at all times

Since correct flying changes, like lead departures, start in the back, how could a flying change be done downhill, ? Nope, you have to have those shoulders up, same as horses who have a natural higher head carriage Not talking of a running reining change at speed, but a western eq or western riding change.
Have you ever ridden a well trained western riding horse?


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

equesjumping said:


> Hello!
> So recently I've been riding without a saddle and bridle, just a plain neckrope. I'm doing this in order to teach/train myself how to use my legs and nothing else to control the horse. Buuuuuttt.... *I have no clue how to collect a horse without any type of bridle.* All I ever did was wiggle my fingers a bit and it usually did the trick. None of my trainers said anything about it.
> Now, when I'm in this situation, it's kinda annoying to see how my mare's head pops up all the time and won't go down+how she doesn't want to slow down a bit.
> So, *what are/is the experiences/advice?*


The short answer is yes, you can teach a horse to collect without a bridle, but you will have to teach it from the ground, not from his back. 

The long answer:
Will it be true collection? Doubtful because true collection (in the Dressage terminology) is only achieved through working up the levels the training pyramid.

True Collection is not possible without impulsion, and it is very difficult to contain impulsion without a bridle. 

A very important part of developing collection also concerns developing the muscle strength for the horse to be in collection. Putting a "frame" on a horse is not the same but very easy to do. I can have a horse riding in a frame in less than 5 minutes, but that is not collection. Collection takes time and perfect practice. 

So here is an example of a mule that has been taught how to do some collected movements on the lunge line. Not true collection, because flexion and engagement are not the same at all.


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## equesjumping (Aug 6, 2017)

Eesh, first of all, lots or overwhelming information from you all :smile: Thanks a lot though! Not saying that it's bad! 



tinyliny said:


> Do you know how to collect your horse with a bridle?
> and, what do want this for? is it basically that you want your hrose to slow down with just falling forward?


I think that I mentioned this in the first post- my mare has always thought that a wiggle of my fingers means ''lower your head''. That has usually done the trick, not for a long time though. After a few seconds, she will go back to being a giraffe. 
Maybe I wasn't using the right terminology, but yes, I do want her to slow down, but not by falling forward. (This might be my own foul, I probably have to learn how to correctly slow Lotte down without a bridle).

Now that I'm thinking+researching I've probably found what actually could be the thing I need.. 
Basically, me and Lotte are show jumpers. But because of a small ''bruise'' we can't use bridles for a while, even though I still want to continue training. While riding in a neckrope, I noticed that I'm rusty and have some things to improve. 
Now, collection/framing/rounding up was never a thing I really worked on, since in the last stable I was at, the trainer didn't focus on it, and only wanted to jump jump and jump. So she just told me to gather the reins really short and keep riding. I didn't like it, so the second I moved to another stable, I started doing the finger wiggle, that I used to. (This is a stable where no one rides except me)

Onto the actual talk. _From what I've understood, collection is an advanced thing, right? 
And in my case (jumping at home, improving Lotte's movement, flatwork, things like that) what I might be looking for is a framed/rounded horse?_

PS. Sorry if it's hard to understand me, english is my second language. 
PPS. This is the article that I read just before writing this post https://www.horselistening.com/2012/07/02/frame-round-or-collection-2/


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

That was a good article to explain the difference. So you are not trying to collect your horse, you are trying to slow your horse...different concepts completely. 

When you wiggle your fingers and the horse drops it's nose, that is not collection, that is trying to set a horse's head...hard to do without a bridle. 

To slow a horse with your seat you have to work against his movement; slow your posting in trot, slow the rock in canter with a bracing of your seat momentarily at every stride (same in walk). Not sure I can explain this right! 

Also try verbal cues.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Smilie said:


> The western definition of collection requires that horses use the braking muscles to slow their movement without shortening their bodies. This leads to horses that can do maneuvers such as flying changes in a downhill posture rather than uphill.
> 
> Sorry, not true.
> If you never sat on a western hrose, truly collected, felt that lift, where you are actually sitting higher, how the heck can you make such a statement?
> Have you ever ridden a well trained western riding horse?


Yes, I have. I didn't say the horse was strung out, I said they had a downhill posture.








In western riding, horses use their muscles to slow themselves and give the feeling of the back lifting due to the vertical forces coming up from the ground. That upward push is also what gives the feeling of back lifting in dressage. The back is higher off the ground.
This pushes the rider higher, that "round" feeling. But they do it in a downhill posture rather than the uphill one required by dressage. So the definition given in dressage does not match the definition given in western riding.





OP, why don't you just teach your horse a different cue for putting the head down that doesn't require a bit? 
When I wanted my horse to go slower on a loose rein, I taught her a verbal cue for a slower gait on the lunge, then used it under saddle once she was good at it. In my case, I said "Jog," when I wanted her to trot slowly, and used that cue to have her move in the slower gait on the lunge and then under saddle.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

equesjumping said:


> ...I think that I mentioned this in the first post- my mare has always thought that a wiggle of my fingers means ''lower your head''. That has usually done the trick, not for a long time though. After a few seconds, she will go back to being a giraffe.
> Maybe I wasn't using the right terminology, but yes, I do want her to slow down, but not by falling forward...
> 
> ...But because of a small ''bruise'' we can't use bridles for a while, even though I still want to continue training_...what I might be looking for is a framed/rounded horse?_...


Where is the "bruise"? There is a difference between riding without a bit and riding without a bridle. There are a number of bitless bridles, and that is very different from trying to ride without reins.

If your horse tends to act like a giraffe, then think about WHY she does. Poor saddle fit or too much use of the reins & bit to hold a horse back can cause it. It can also become a habit. It is normally a "bit evasion" and the best solution is correct use of the bit. A horse who just doesn't want to do something - maybe associating it with past pain - may act that way. That means starting over and teaching the horse it doesn't need to be afraid.

For teaching a horse to stop, I recommend watching this video:






If you cannot use a bit due to the horse being hurt, then it can be done bitless. Trying to teach a horse who doesn't already have a good stop when using a bit to stop well without any reins at all is probably a bad idea.


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## equesjumping (Aug 6, 2017)

@bsms we've tried so many types of different bits, conclusion- she doesn't like bits at all. We'
ve tried everything, believe me.
The bruise is right where a noseband sits, so that's the reason why I can't use any type of bridle. 
Onto the saddle- we don't have a saddle currently, because I sold my old one and am looking for a new saddle. Everyone knows how hard it is to find a saddle that fits hehe!
@gottatrot just today I was at the stables and tried to teach her to lower her head by lightly snapping my fingers under her chin. I guess that later on I'll try to somehow do the same thing with a rope... still figuring this out.
@AnitaAnne Will do, thanks a lot!


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

Based on what you're saying, it kind of sounds like she isn't achieving collection even with the bridle. With this in mind, that's where I'd start


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

you don't have to use a noseband with a bridle. I haven't used one for years.


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## Caledonian (Nov 27, 2016)

I didn’t always use a noseband and for one mare I had sheepskin cover, similar to those worn by racehorses.


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## equesjumping (Aug 6, 2017)

@tinyliny I can't use bits, and I can't imagine how a bitless bridle could be used without a noseband. @Caledonian I am considering buying a sheepskin for both my yet upcoming bitless bridle and my halter.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

sorry, I missed the part of 'cannot' use bits.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Cannot use bits, or horse not educated to a bit, or has mouth damage that precludes the use of a bit?
Many horses declared not to like bits, were never introduced to them correctly
Horses seem to really understand bittless, when first started under saddle, FOR A GOOD REASON. Those pressure points are familiar, since that horse was first halter broke.
Horses do not automatically transfer giving to pressure points on their face, to in their mouth- that is 'virgin territory . Thus, without giving a horse a chance to learn'accept those new pressure points, thus give to them, same as those on his face, many horses are then declared not to like bits.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

gottatrot said:


> Yes, I have. I didn't say the horse was strung out, I said they had a downhill posture.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not sure where that first pic was taken from, but here is a western riding a pattern, and while the hrose keeps a level topline, I don't see him being down hill doing those changes. Not a big deal, just clarifying what a western riding pattern is.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

gottatrot said:


> Yes, I have. I didn't say the horse was strung out, I said they had a downhill posture.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I just mostly wanted to comment on the western picture you chose to quote above. 

ANY picture can be captured at an inopportune time .... Making the dressage horse also look like he is traveling downhill. 












Anywho....... carry on!




equesjumping said:


> So recently I've been riding without a saddle and bridle, just a plain neckrope. I'm doing this in order to teach/train myself how to use my legs and nothing else to control the horse. Buuuuuttt.... I have no clue how to collect a horse without any type of bridle. All I ever did was wiggle my fingers a bit and it usually did the trick. None of my trainers said anything about it.
> Now, when I'm in this situation, it's kinda annoying to see how my mare's head pops up all the time and won't go down+how she doesn't want to slow down a bit.
> 
> I think that I mentioned this in the first post- my mare has always thought that a wiggle of my fingers means ''lower your head''. That has usually done the trick, not for a long time though. After a few seconds, she will go back to being a giraffe.
> ...


Sounds like there are just some good basic things you and your horse can work on for the time being. There are certain things you _won't_ be able to teach her with no saddle and only a neck rope, but there are things you can start with for the time being.

Yes, collection is an advanced thing and has more to do with what the horse is doing with their body -- not their head. Usually, the head will follow suit when you get the rest of the body in order. 

For starters, I would just work on teaching your horse to slow down and/or not speed up. Make sure you are relaxed with your body and use circles and serpentines to your advantage. If she starts to go faster than you'd like, turn her into a small circle. The small circle will force her to go slower. You could also do serpentines back and forth to achieve the same effect. Slow her down, then let her carry on. If she speeds up again, don't make a big deal of it - just again circle/serpentine her to slow her down again. Rinse and repeat 1,000 times.:smile:

You could also work on making her more responsive to your seat. Teach her to slow down and/or stop from your seat! I'd start by walking your horse, and trying to get her to stop just from you "sitting" on your seat bones. In the beginning, use the neck rope to support your cue. But eventually she can learn to stop just from your seat. 

This is useful becaue then you can also use that cue to help slow her down when she starts going faster than you want.

At this point, I wouldn't worry about her head at all. Work on controlling her speed first. When she learns to slow down and relax, most of the time her head will naturally come down too.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

Are you working with a trainer, OP? (Sorry if I missed it, I read the thread yesterday and don't recall all the details x.x)


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## equesjumping (Aug 6, 2017)

beau159 said:


> You could also work on making her more responsive to your seat. Teach her to slow down and/or stop from your seat! I'd start by walking your horse, and trying to get her to stop just from you "sitting" on your seat bones. In the beginning, use the neck rope to support your cue. But eventually she can learn to stop just from your seat.
> 
> .


Exactly what I started doing the last time I visited the stables  Thank you for the advice!
@Zexious- No, for personal reasons, I'm not working with a trainer. I used to a lot though.


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## equesjumping (Aug 6, 2017)

Smilie said:


> Cannot use bits, or horse not educated to a bit, or has mouth damage that precludes the use of a bit?
> Many horses declared not to like bits, were never introduced to them correctly


Cannot, because Lotte strongly dislikes them. We've tried many bits and nosebands and bridles, looked at her bones (heck knows, maybe there was a problem with them), fixed her teeth a lot, checked them for the ''wolf teeth'' (that's what Latvians call it).
I have no idea of how she was introduced to bits. We bought her, when she was 4 years old, from a seller that hasn't really been honest about how she was trained, so there's that.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

equesjumping said:


> Cannot, because Lotte strongly dislikes them. We've tried many bits and nosebands and bridles, looked at her bones (heck knows, maybe there was a problem with them), fixed her teeth a lot, checked them for the ''wolf teeth'' (that's what Latvians call it).
> I have no idea of how she was introduced to bits. We bought her, when she was 4 years old, from a seller that hasn't really been honest about how she was trained, so there's that.


Of course, your choice, but trying many bits, would not have been the route to go, JMO
Yes, having teeth done, making sure there was no reason like a cut tongue, by improper bit use, would have been done first. 
After that though, I would have taken her right back to the point she was never introduced to a bit, and start right at the beginning, not riding her, but back to ground work, and using a simple snaffle.
That means juts letting her carry that bit for awhile, and lunge her off a halter, under that bridle. Gradually bit her up, over time, and no nose band to force acceptance.
Only after some time, spent introducing her to a bit correctly, perhaps ground driving after the lunge line work is done, or just standing beside her, asking her to give laterally of that snaffle to each side, could you even decide she truly does not like bits
Just sticking various bits into a mouth that might just be un educated, won't give you that answer. It is not a type of bit that has a horse accept a bit, but the education to a basic bit

Although some horses prefer some bit configuration to another one, ONCE they understand the basic use and response to a bit, which NEEDS to be using a non leverage bit, that initial education can't be skipped


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## equesjumping (Aug 6, 2017)

@Smilie Before deciding to go bitless, I searched for a fault in the saddle/ my own riding. I asked a few old friends that are quite experienced riders, to hop onto her and ride a bit. It seemed like she had problems with every rider when it comes to the bit. 
Still, thanks! Although I'm not completely _allowed_ to use bits, I will try everything that you suggested.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

equesjumping said:


> @Smilie Before deciding to go bitless, I searched for a fault in the saddle/ my own riding. I asked a few old friends that are quite experienced riders, to hop onto her and ride a bit. It seemed like she had problems with every rider when it comes to the bit.
> Still, thanks! Although I'm not completely _allowed_ to use bits, I will try everything that you suggested.


Just having various riders hop on her, is not going to prove anything, without first going back and seeing if basic education to a bit is missing!

Of course every rider getting on her, experienced or not, is going to have a problem riding ahrose with a bit, if that horse was never taught how to respond to a bit correctly in the first place. A person, taht truly is good at the snaffle training stage, could though, by riding her, tell as to how educated to a bit she is to begin with. Just because someone has ridden alot means squat. In fact, there are very few trainers I would trust to start a colt of mine

You need someone very good at starting colts correctly, in a snaffle, to get on this horse , with a snaffle, and see where she is at


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## equesjumping (Aug 6, 2017)

I'm sorry, but since I didn't have that much knowledge at the time, I did what I thought was best.
I'll start looking for a person that is very good at starting fillies correctly.


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