# Spurs, crops, double bits



## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

In the right hands, they're nothing more than refinement and correction aids.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

By whom and in what context?

All are tools that in the right hands (or on the right legs) are useful. Double bits and spurs are for refinement and a crop is for backing up the leg aids.

In the wrong or uneducated hands they can be cruel, it all depends on the person using them and the reason they are using them.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

only when you are ready for such.


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## disastercupcake (Nov 24, 2012)

On a horse properly educated to respond correctly to the aides, and with a rider correctly employing the aides, these are all tools of refined, classical riding.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

No problem with any of them, if used correctly.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I've used a crop with a lesson horse before. One smack and he was fine. He would not respond to leg until he got a smack from a crop, no matter how hard you kicked. 

I have carried a leather strap as a back-up crop on my saddle, but I only used it about 2 times a year so I stopped.

I have no business wearing spurs. My riding also has no use for double bits. That does not make them wrong for others. I'm a low level rider on a low level horse, although we both manage to have delusions of grandeur.


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

Have used them all at times for specific reasons, but prefer to use none of them.
The horse I have now I don't need any but if I start schooling her I might carry a crop to help as an aid.
The last horse I had I never needed spurs or crop as she was very forward so didn't need them but I did at times use a pelham bit with as she was used in a Kid's Camp and was very hard mouthed when I got her. She was ridden with a western curb bit and I put her in a snaffle which worked fine but if she decided to get a little strong she wouldn't always listen to me so I put the pelham on her, I could ride with the top rein most of the time but once in a while she needed a little reminder of the curb to mind her manners while out on the trails


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## Fort fireman (Mar 5, 2011)

Like said earlier , there is a time and a place for them all and a skill set associated with them. The rider needs to have that skill set to use them effectively however. If they do not, they can turn into torture devises rather than communication aids.


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## plomme (Feb 7, 2013)

I use all of them. If you use them correctly they can be fantastic.


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## horseNpony (Sep 27, 2013)

Like everyone else has said, in the right hands, they can be very useful. In the wrong hands, they hand be cruel. 
I always use a crop with my lesson horse, even carrying it helps. Being a lesson horse, hes quite dead to my leg sometimes since so many people (of various experience levels) have ridden him. In a walk and trot hes fine but getting him into an extended trot or canter at times requires a crop. 
I've never used spurs, but I've heard that they can be really helpful in lateral(?) movement. I think i got that statement right.
Never used a double bit, not entirely sure what they are for either.


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## Bedhead (Aug 4, 2013)

I don't use spurs since my horse doesn't need any help with the get-up-and-go, I only use a crop when riding side saddle since I lack a leg on the off side, and only use double bits when I show saddle seat since that requires a full bridle; is there anything wrong with someone who uses all three on a more routine basis? Absolutely not, so long as they know what they're doing. My personal thing is not using any more hardware than strictly necessary, but those are also tools that I don't need to get my horse to do what I want. We're not exactly Nationals-Quality refined, but he does good and responds to my cues.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

If you are using spurs go make them go forwards then you are using them wrong
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Saddlebred11 (Mar 27, 2014)

I am personally a no on spurs, don't feel the need on the horses I ride. Plus a lot of harm could be done in the wrong hands. Though can be good.

Riding crops I ride with, I use it about every other time I ride so I am not constantly beating on them. This again in the wrong hands becomes instead of the leg aids a new set of legs(which it SHOULDN'T be)

Double Bridles have a time and a place. Saddleseat uses it to raise the horse's head. Also for a strong horse that needs more control it CAN be good(not saying it always in). When used by the right person it can be a great tool though a nice snaffle is my go to!


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

IMO a double bridle is better than what a lot of people do these days, which is crank the horse's mouth shut around a snaffle bit. It's a very crude way of trying to achieve the same effect. At least with a double bridle you can choose when to use the curb. 

As a pleasure rider I have no use for spurs. If I need spurs on a horse then it isn't the right horse for me, simple as that. 

Crops are good when used *behind the leg.* That way the horse has time to see it coming and if they know what they're doing wrong (which sometimes they do) they can choose to correct themselves and avoid being hit. I've ridden a few school horses who would do that.


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## Ale (May 8, 2013)

Right now I am only using spurs because my legs are not strong enough after healing from a recent surgery to reach back and apply proper pressure to my horses sides. And when they are used, they are only used lightly. Though, on Sunday I did not use spurs for the first time in a while and Dixie actually responded this time because I believe my legs are growing stronger.

Crops, the same thing. Though the only horse at the barn I use one on would be Fynn. He is rather young and doesn't have proper training. While I am making sure to teach him other aids and ques to what I am asking him, sometimes the crop is necessary to get his attention. A light tap is all it takes to gain a response of paying attention from him. 

I have never used a double bit, I don't know what they are for, etc etc. So I cannot comment on that end of the question. 

But again, like most others have mentioned; these aids should only be aids. Not used for punishment or to induce a pain reaction from your horse. You never ever want to use pain as a training method or punishment method. Spurs and crops should be an extension of your hands and heels; nothing otherwise.


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## Haileyyy (Mar 10, 2012)

I am fine if someone who knows how to use them uses them on a horse who knows how to properly respond to them.

That being said, I personally don't use any of them. I am not confident enough in myself to comfortably use spurs. I don't know how, neither does my horse and he has plenty of go so that isn't a problem. I have used crops in the past, especially on my pony when I was little. However, it was more of a scare tactic to get her refocused and moving. 9/10 times I would tap my leg instead of her or just show her the crop and she knew it was time to work. Anyone with a feisty, mare-ish pony would understand haha. Now I ride with split reins so if I needed to I would use the rein instead of carrying a crop. 

My horse is a saint but he would not tolerate a double bridle because he isn't trained enough to use it, neither am I. We just putz around the yard and trail ride or ride in my "arena". No need for a double bridle, a plain d ring works for us.


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## Horselover1994 (Oct 30, 2013)

Thanks for posting guys, I was just seeing everyones point of view.


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## CandyCanes (Jul 1, 2013)

Bedhead said:


> I don't use spurs since my horse doesn't need any help with the get-up-and-go,


Spurs are not for that anyway!


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

CandyCanes said:


> Spurs are not for that anyway!


Then why do they have that effect on every horse I've ever seen, lol.


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## Dawn854 (Aug 11, 2013)

I posted a similar question about the use of spurs, I was considering using them to help fire up my lazy horse. All I got from him when I used the spur was an irritated grunt and a swish of his tail, and maybe a hurried stride or two, but it was clear that I was not using the spurs properly, so I quit. I may consider them again when we're advanced enough to do lateral movements, and only if I need them, but for now, they're on the shelf.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Pony boy spurs are for refining an aid, so you can make your leg aid invisible. 
People who use spurs to make a horse go forward are using them incorrectly
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Spurs can be used to speed up a horse. A guy who went thru the training at Samur in the 1930s said they had a proverb: 'The horse should believe God is on his back, and the Devil is at his belly'. Carried to its logical extreme, you can end up with a horse who looks like out Appy gelding did when he arrived:








​ 
He still (6 years later) has some bare spots of lumpy flesh where the hair never completely grew back. It took some time with a pro trainer him to keep him from panicking at the sight of a cowboy hat. To this day, he is happier around women, although he behaves OK when I ride him. So while they CAN be used to punish a horse, count me in as one of those who thinks a good rider uses them for other purposes. Given my leg, my marginal seat and riding goals, that means not at all, personally.

BTW - even now, Trooper is very sensitive to heels. He works best if you ride him with no lower leg contact.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

bsms they can be used for getting a horse to go forward, just like whips can be used to beat the crap out of a horse, doesnt mean they should be or that it is the correct use of the equipment


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

A little off topic but a person who is only using spurs because their horse is "lazy" will eventually end up with a horse that is dead sided even to the sharpest spurs. What they have is a timing/training problem, usually resulting from "nagging" the horse with their legs. If you are constantly bumping or applying varying pressure with your legs without actually asking for a change in gait, then you are only teaching the horse to ignore the smaller movement of your legs.

The best example I have of how to prevent/correct this is what I did with my draft cross when I was training him. He's a naturally lazy horse who's favorite speed is asleep. After he knew that legs = forward but was still lazy about moving off of them quickly, I got more aggressive with my use of force continuum. Basically, I would give a very light squeeze, if I didn't get a response, I would give a very light bump. If he still didn't respond, I didn't just continue to kick harder and harder. After the light bump that he still didn't respond too, I would take my reins and use them as a whip and "whip" him into a speed that was one faster than I originally asked for.

For example, if I was walking and I asked for a trot that I didn't get, I would use my reins on his butt until he was loping. If he was stopped and I wanted a walk but he didn't want to, I'd whip him into a trot. It didn't take him long to start moving off immediately from that initial light squeeze.

Now, I can apply light pressure and have him transition from a walk/stop immediately into a nice lope.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Spurs (as in the short blunt type used in the UK) can be a really useful tool used to help a lazy type of beginners horse/pony move forward a little more responsively especially when ridden by a lightweight weekend rider that isn't especially fit or a youngster with little skinny legs
As long as the rider isn't gripping with the backs of their legs and constantly jabbing them then I see no problem with that and its preferable to seeing someone banging away at a horses sides so much that they eventually become 'numb' to it


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

I have no problem with spurs, crops and double bridles, if used properly.

Now I use spurs on my WP horses because they are trained with a "spur stop". I have no need for a double bridle because they aren't used in my discipline of choice. Crops....I would MUCH RATHER see someone use a dressage whip effectively at the leg than a crop.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

You should train so that you horse ALWAYS listens to a whip. You never know when that is what moves them from harm's way, as I used a lunge whip yesterday when I had to move my gelding away from something dangerous in the turnout that I had to go in and remove.
Regarding a double bridle, I like to ride with a Pelham which a hybred double bridle, where you still ride with a snaffle of sorts and a short shanked curb and use 4 reins.
Regarding spurs and a crop while riding, I was always taught that the leg comes first, the crop OR spurs comes next. Just when you think your horse is lazy watch his response to something scary and he will immediately move. He needs to realize that you expect an immediate response to your leg cues, too.
I taught my students how to use a crop first before they could really control their legs. My lesson horses would move out when they saw a student flip a crop out to use it.
ONLY when you can control your lower leg should you ever wear a set of spurs. Anyone who always cues with the spurs doesn't understand their use.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I do not think spurs are there to amplify the cue so that the "sticky" horse gets going. well, yes, maybe a bit. but the main purpose is to allow the rider to make a very soft , yet effective, cue with minimal movement of the foot. it is the same cue that he/she would give without the spur, but it would take a bit more movement of the foot.

for real laziness issues, a spur is not the way. crop/whip/ quirt/mecate tail, long reins over and under. then back to soft touch of the ankle bone on the horse's sensitive sides.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

There are not a lot of absolutes in riding. The guy who went to the French Cavalry School, and the Italian one, was looking at a goal that included a horse (and rider) who would do this:










And this sort of riding:










Me? I want a horse who would look ahead at those and say, not just no, but "*Hellllll Noooooooooo*!"

I'm sure the guy (Harry Chamberlin) would also strongly object to the treatment poor Trooper got when he sides were spurred into bloody holes...but his goal in riding differed greatly from my own.

My goals have no real need for spurs. Others have goals that involve using spurs for subtle commands. Others teach a spur stop, which is fine for some sports but not helpful for others. I'm pretty sure we can all agree that spurring holes into the side of the horse is wrong, but I'm not sure we can be dogmatic about other uses outside our choice of riding.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

I'll bet Trooper would respond best to riding JUST with your weight. =D


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

faye said:


> Pony boy spurs are for refining an aid, so you can make your leg aid invisible.
> People who use spurs to make a horse go forward are using them incorrectly
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If somebody poked you with a pointy object, you'd move faster too. Basic physics: the smaller the surface area, the more pressure per square inch. You can insist all day long that spurs "shouldn't" be used to speed a horse up, but the fact is they can, and it's what they are often used for.


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## 3ringburner (Feb 8, 2014)

spurs:yes if you dont kick the crud out of a horse!
crops: sometimes if your horse needs a little check once in a while
double bits: No just because ive never been around double bits but the sound of it makes it sound horrible.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

3ringburner, a double bit is simply a bridle with 4 cheek pieces, 2 bits and 4 reins. The two bits are a simple snaffle (thin mouthpiece) and a short shanked (usually) curb (mullen mouth or low port.)
They are also referred to as "Bit and Bridoon."
The Double Bridle. Weymouth & Bridoon in Horse Training >> Local Riding
It is NOT an instrument of torture, but used to ride a finished horse (usually Dressage or Saddle Seat) with finesse. The current Dressage world is entertaining riding with just a snaffle for the upper levels. At present Grand Prix Dressage horses must be shown in a double bridle.

*@bsms, you are an ANGEL for adopted an abused horse. * I have read and heard of people doing this, but never witnessed it or the result of this firsthand. Have you considered teaching Trooper voice commands? I am sure that he is in GREAT hands with you!! =D


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

A double bridle is standard in UK & Australian showing classes including ponies - not for novices, lead rein or first ridden
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnReLnSzeVU
12.2 ponies
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXHX-RbpCoM
The ponies and riders are trained to it


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

ponyboy said:


> If somebody poked you with a pointy object, you'd move faster too. Basic physics: the smaller the surface area, the more pressure per square inch. You can insist all day long that spurs "shouldn't" be used to speed a horse up, but the fact is they can, and it's what they are often used for.


crops shouldnt be used for beating a horse to the point of drawing blood, but the fact is that they can be and unfortunatly people often do, doesnt make it right or correct!

the correct use of a spur is to refine and aid not to poke a horse in the side ot make it go faster, all you are doing if you are using them to make a horse go faster is deadening the horses responses and eventualy you wont be able to get them going forward at all and you have a horse who is dead to the leg and no way to escalate.
If you are using spurs for forwards then you are not ready to be using spurs at all


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

ponyboy said:


> If somebody poked you with a pointy object, you'd move faster too. Basic physics: the smaller the surface area, the more pressure per square inch. You can insist all day long that spurs "shouldn't" be used to speed a horse up, but the fact is they can, and it's what they are often used for.


I agree with Faye...not for forward, and not ANY of my horses I've used spurs on in the past 52 years, have GONE forward when "poked" with spurs. You actually get the exact opposite.....a horse that may slam the brakes on and commence to bucking, OR the horse that just shuts down totally. They are for refinement. If you are doing timed event and used a bumper spurs...you can get so "go" but those horses are going by what what your legs are doing in the time with their speed...NOT that you have poked a spur in them....sorry Ponybony....vehemently disagree.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Ridden for show, spurs are used for subtlety. Ridden for other purposes, spurs may well be used to drive a horse forward. Littauer wrote about using spurs to move a horse forward. Chamberlin wrote of judiciously "attacking" a horse with spurs, citing the French proverb about 'the Devil at the horse's belly' and finishes a section on the use of spurs by writing, "_Balking, rearing and whirling for the stables, are examples. All are easily cured by teaching him to go forward when the spurs act_". He also describes the French Cavalry teaching to 'pinch the horse forward' with spurs.

The proper use of spurs depends on goals, styles and personal philosophy. I would rather have my horse balk than "attack" her with spurs. But then, my life doesn't depend on getting a horse to move forward on the battlefield...thankfully!


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## equaeternal (May 8, 2014)

When they are used as a tool and not to punish I believe the can help communication between horse and rider.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Bsms I've sen far more rears caused by the use of spurs than stopped by spurs
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I've never used spurs, nor do I know anyone who does. But Harry Chamberlin was a highly qualified rider who was sent to spend a year each at the French and then Italian Cavalry schools, so he could return and write the manual for the US Cavalry.

It is certainly not the only way to use spurs. I have no intention of ever adopting it. But I cannot pretend it does not exist, nor that it did not work for the French, Italian and US cavalries. And I never will ride like this:

Modern Centaurs: Cavalry Training (1920) [HD] - YouTube


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I don't think that ponyboy was saying it was correct to use spurs like that or that he used them like that - what he's saying is that they are used that way and very commonly so, anyone who thinks otherwise must not get out into horse world very much.
As for finesse and refinement - well that might be correct in the world of dressage but in many showing classes in the UK they're worn to sharpen the horse up - a small amount of pressure with your spurs isn't going to get noticed half as much as constantly banging with your heels - and the use of a whip in the show ring is a big giveaway that the horse isn't responsive and would be frowned on
Most jumping and eventing riders wear spurs - again, not for refinement or finesse but to sharpen a horse up at a fence because its far less wearing on the rider than using your legs all the time and less risk of getting a horse that becomes 'dead' to your legs. The over use of a whip will get noticed in a ring and get you disqualified, and if your horse has been trained to work off leg cues to ask it to move its quarters or body over if you tap it on one side with your whip that's whats going to happen and not what you want when you're trying to keep straight at a fence, along a rail or in a schooling movement.
Regardless of right or wrong using spurs to get more forward movement & impulsion from a horse happens and it happens a lot.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

jaydee said:


> I don't think that ponyboy was saying it was correct to use spurs like that or that he used them like that - what he's saying is that they are used that way and very commonly so, anyone who thinks otherwise must not get out into horse world very much.
> As for finesse and refinement - well that might be correct in the world of dressage but in many showing classes in the UK they're worn to sharpen the horse up - a small amount of pressure with your spurs isn't going to get noticed half as much as constantly banging with your heels - and the use of a whip in the show ring is a big giveaway that the horse isn't responsive and would be frowned on
> Most jumping and eventing riders wear spurs - again, not for refinement or finesse but to sharpen a horse up at a fence because its far less wearing on the rider than using your legs all the time and less risk of getting a horse that becomes 'dead' to your legs. The over use of a whip will get noticed in a ring and get you disqualified, and if your horse has been trained to work off leg cues to ask it to move its quarters or body over if you tap it on one side with your whip that's whats going to happen and not what you want when you're trying to keep straight at a fence, along a rail or in a schooling movement.
> Regardless of right or wrong using spurs to get more forward movement & impulsion from a horse happens and it happens a lot.


Incorrect Jaydee, Spurs are worn in showing in horse classes (UK) because of tradition and because by the time it gets in the show ring the horse should be schooled to a high enough level to need the refinement of both spurs and a double bridle. They are forbidden in pony classes and for horse classes you will have a judge ride rather than individual show and the judge will NOT wear spurs, this means that to give the judge a good ride your horse needs to be forwards and light without the use of spurs!
Whips shouldnt be carried in the show ring, only a show cane which is for show only and not to be used.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

jaydee said:


> I don't think that ponyboy was saying it was correct to use spurs like that or that he used them like that - what he's saying is that they are used that way and very commonly so, anyone who thinks otherwise must not get out into horse world very much.


Yeah, that. And like I said, it's physics. Pbysics doesn't change based on someone's opinion of how things _should_ be.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

faye said:


> Incorrect Jaydee, Spurs are worn in showing in horse classes (UK) because of tradition and because by the time it gets in the show ring the horse should be schooled to a high enough level to need the refinement of both spurs and a double bridle. They are forbidden in pony classes and for horse classes you will have a judge ride rather than individual show and the judge will NOT wear spurs, this means that to give the judge a good ride your horse needs to be forwards and light without the use of spurs!
> Whips shouldnt be carried in the show ring, only a show cane which is for show only and not to be used.


Faye I'm British and was showing ponies and horses there before you were born so please don't try to tell me how it works.
The majority of judges are good enough riders to have the strength in their legs not to need spurs - there are more riders in those classes that don't have that ability than there are ones that do. I've also lost count of the number of horses I've seen drop to the bottom of the line from the top after the judges have ridden them - because they do need spurs to sharpen them up and the judge found them to be hard work
Oh - and I've stewarded for some very good judges over the years so I got to hear the feedback
As for the canes - have you never ridden a horse or a pony that livened up the moment you picked up a crop or a whip - you never even have to use it.
Tradition or otherwise its quite common to see a horse at top level in the ring not ridden in spurs - because its well schooled and responsive enough not to need them to walk, trot and canter/gallop in a circle without them


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

jaydee - I'm british, I'm currently showing on the circuit now! I regularly show at county level, Steward at county shows and judge at local shows, I'm currently doing the assessment to become a ride judge!
I've shown horses upto HOYS level and am in regular contact/am friends with with many top producers, I've had a horse with a top producer. 
Spurs ARE a refinement, they are not supposed to be used to gee up a horse and conciquently you will have seen horses that need spurs to get them forwards dropped right down the line as it is an incorrect use of spurs!
Yes lots of horses at top level are shown without spurs but normaly for traditions sake riders put on dummy spurs so the look is correct (dummy spurs being just the band but no neck)

Just because something can or is be used to do something doesnt mean it SHOULD be or that it is the correct use of the implement.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

faye said:


> ...Just because something can or is be used to do something doesnt mean it SHOULD be or that it is the correct use of the implement.


And just because something is used for X in a show doesn't mean it has no value or should never be used for Y. If you spur a horse to have bloody holes that leave scars, as was done to Trooper, it is evil. But if someone uses a spur the same as another uses a crop, that doesn't make them wrong. If the French, Italian & US Cavalry all taught riders to use spurs to urge a hesitant horse forward, then it is probably a valid use.

Maybe that is not how they are used for showing, but it is certainly a way they are used, and used effectively, in the non-show world. The lesson horse I mentioned in my first post on this thread worked fine with a crop but would totally ignore someone without a crop. None of the students were allowed to ride with spurs, but the instructor said if you climbed on that horse wearing spurs, no crop was needed. She said you normally didn't even need to touch him with the spurs. Just knowing the rider could do something other than kick with his/her heels was enough to get the horse to obey.

That is not the result of optimal training. But he was in his 20s, had multiple previous owners, and was actually a pretty light and responsive horse - IF he thought his rider could back up his leg with something more. He was earning his keep as a lesson horse at a cheap stable in southern Arizona. It kept him off the auction block. And in his own way, he was fun to ride. I think I could have trained him to do better if he was my horse, but not while he was being ridden daily by ham-fisted, insensitive beginners (like me) who struggled with staying ON a horse, let alone improving him.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

faye said:


> jaydee - I'm british, I'm currently showing on the circuit now! I regularly show at county level, Steward at county shows and judge at local shows, I'm currently doing the assessment to become a ride judge!
> I've shown horses upto HOYS level and am in regular contact/am friends with with many top producers, I've had a horse with a top producer.
> Spurs ARE a refinement, they are not supposed to be used to gee up a horse and conciquently you will have seen horses that need spurs to get them forwards dropped right down the line as it is an incorrect use of spurs!
> Yes lots of horses at top level are shown without spurs but normaly for traditions sake riders put on dummy spurs so the look is correct (dummy spurs being just the band but no neck)
> ...


I don't think I ever said that using spurs or whips or leverage bits (as in part of the double bridle) incorrectly was OK - I've only tried to emphasize that it happens and it happens a lot
What does rather amuse me though is the constant reference to 'refinement and finesse'
What on earth does that mean? Without a qualifying word it has no meaning whatsoever. What are we refining with the spurs - needlepoint? Crochet? 
Spurs are simply an extension of the heel. The design of the spur enables the rider to apply a more defined pressure with less effort
The heel is used to create movement (with the exception of when used in a spur stop) either forwards or lateral therefore the spur is used to make it easier to move the horse and because it is easier to do that with a spur then wearing spurs will make a horse go faster and be more responsive to the heel cues
Faye - Maybe you need to explain better how you think spurs refine a horse and how you would use them to refine a horse


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