# Building topline and collection



## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

no one? 
hehe
I've heard also that having the horse turn their head to the inside while doing their gaits is "collection" but then again I heard that collection is also just having the horses head on the verticle.

Collection question:
If collection is so important for dressage horses whil performing, why do none of them have a rounded back?


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## appylover31803 (Sep 18, 2007)

The training system that i have, it has everything there, except for a surcingle or a caveson.

Other than that, it's all there. Jazzy has a similar system to what i have.

If you go to the instructional videos, she puts it on Jarred so you can see how it goes.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

he looks like he travels on his front end... do you have any trot photos?


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Collection is NOT entirely about the headset! In fact, it has little to do with the headset at all. 
Collection is rather that the horse is working off its hind end, working through its back to get its weight off the forehand. The horse takes shorter strides than in a normal (working) gait. The horse should feel like a giant spring where extension can come from. 
Without collection, the horse is unable to achieve correct extension. 
Topline can only come from the horse working in a correct frame - good luck building it in any other way. (And if anyone can prove me wrong, I would _love_ to hear it!!)
If you can get him to get in a frame with your hands low, slowly start raising your hands to the correct position - he shouldn't need your hands to be low to work in a frame. 

PS - having the head bent to the inside may not mean the horse is truely bent to the inside (or outside) so make sure you're asking the horse's ribcage to bend as well.


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

farmpony84 said:


> he looks like he travels on his front end... do you have any trot photos?


yeah....lemme find them




























These were taken at different times...


JDI, yes I know having the head at the verticle isn't collection, but I was just saying that's what I originally thought.

I'll have a friend take some pics and videos of me trying to get Sonny's head low and then some of his head turned inside and then random videos of me trying to get him to round his back (no idea how I'd attempt that though)

The thing is though most of the BOs horses have a good topline, yet they don't really do anything differently than I do. Does riding alot cause them to loose the topline? 

What exactly causes them to loose the topline?


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

> What exactly causes them to loose the topline?



... lack of working in a proper frame.


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

ok thanks JDI....I've heard that it can be built up also with some type of "topline builder" food, but I think that might be more of a gimmick than anything.

I'll get some videos of Sonny and me tomorrow (if I can find someone to record them) and I'll try to get him long and low, etc


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

He's definitely traveling on his front end. He's a cute horse though, really cute. You need to get him moving from his backend. I'm not really good at wording things but let me try... You need to push him forward with your leg, but at the same time you want to hold him back, I don't mean lug on his reigns though, this is where the headset comes into play, you want himtraveling underneath himself, moving from the back end and I am not capable of explaining it... someone help!!!


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

farmpony...are you just trying to say to get his back rounded and pushing himself with his back feet instead of pulling with his front? 
How can you tell though? What were you looking for?


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

SonnyWimps said:


> I've heard that it can be built up also with some type of "topline builder" food, but I think that might be more of a gimmick than anything.
> 
> I'll get some videos of Sonny and me tomorrow (if I can find someone to record them) and I'll try to get him long and low, etc



... run far far away from that "feed" - that is a gimmick.. topline is built by muscle... unless it's some sort of foundering food, then that will "build" a nice big founder crest! 
Think about it - if you want a stronger back, you're going to hold proper posture and build muscles right? You won't eat something different to do that. 

Videos would be good.


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

well cross your fingers and hope that my stable buddies will take some pics and videos of us today...I'm going to both get some of riding and lunging.

My BO supposedly has a pessoa system so I'm going to see if I can use that for Sonny when I lunge him


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

The BO actually had side-reins not a pessoa...the girl thought she said the pessoa but actually she told her she had side reins.

IMO the side reins were reallly big on Sonny....the thing that went around his girth arena was on the last hole on both sides....and the reins themselves were on the last hole and still was really loose :? 

So anyways here are some pics and videos from today
Let me know if you see any change (yes he *should* look fatter)

Pics:


















Videos:
http://s263.photobucket.com/albums/...ontinue/?action=view&current=SideReins011.flv
http://s263.photobucket.com/albums/...ontinue/?action=view&current=SideReins012.flv

And lunging without the stuff on so you can see the difference...please forgive the stuff at the end...my "filmer" got bored
http://s263.photobucket.com/albums/...ontinue/?action=view&current=SideReins013.flv
(and yes Sonny bolted because he wanted to go the other way...hehe bad boy)

To me it didn't look like the side reins did the trick...the BO was helping me to adjust it and stuff to get him to at least feel a tiny bit of pressure...but it didn't work at all


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Looks like the side reins should be attached lower so Sonny has to stretch long and low into the contact and make his back and neck work - the way they are right now isn't working.


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## Gluey33 (Jun 2, 2008)

Its probably better to do this on his back. You need to really sit back on your butt and drive really hard lifting his front end. After you get it up for a couple of strides gently release it and if it drops pick it up again and repeat the process until he holds it himself. Pretend theres a pocket of air batween you and the saddle and use those legs to lift him up into it. (its amazing the difference that little trick can make). Good Luck I hope this makes sense


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

What about bungees? why don't you try riding with bungees?


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## moomoo (Feb 21, 2007)

Don't anyone bite my head of if i am wrong, but you could try draw reins when you are riding?


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

Gluey33 said:


> Its probably better to do this on his back. You need to really sit back on your butt and drive really hard lifting his front end. After you get it up for a couple of strides gently release it and if it drops pick it up again and repeat the process until he holds it himself. Pretend theres a pocket of air batween you and the saddle and use those legs to lift him up into it. (its amazing the difference that little trick can make). Good Luck I hope this makes sense


Gluey what exactly do you mean by " trying to lift him up"? How would I go about doing that?


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I'm a big fan of training devices... a lot of people arent' but I am because although I feel like I have the understanding of what needs to be done... I don't always have the right seat/moves... training devices help you so much....


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

farmpony84 said:


> I'm a big fan of training devices... a lot of people arent' but I am because although I feel like I have the understanding of what needs to be done... I don't always have the right seat/moves... training devices help you so much....


In the right hands, training devices can do wonders. In the wrong hands they can be torture devices. Since I don't know the riders here in real life, I don't usually recommend them because I don't honestly know if they'll know how to use them.


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## kickshaw (May 7, 2008)

> In the right hands, training devices can do wonders. In the wrong hands they can be torture devices. Since I don't know the riders here in real life, I don't usually recommend them because I don't honestly know if they'll know how to use them.


agreed 100%


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## Gluey33 (Jun 2, 2008)

Gee your making me think now lol
Wrap your knee and calves into his sides and literally try and pick him up with them. Its dam hard work but imagine that pocket of air and put him in it. :wink:


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

ooh okay...that's what I thought you meant...
I tried that yesterday but all Sonny did was pin back his ears and stop quickly. I think I've found a way for him to properly collect...not sure 100%, but will know today

I want to use as little training devices as I can with him due to he's never really had those on him before. I've thought about putting a rubber training fork (as I call them...almost like a martingale but it forms a "Y" shape...the one end hooks to the girth and the other two go on the reins...it makes it so they have to stay on the verticle and can't pull their head up) but Sonny can be somewhat spooky at times and I'm afraid that the training fork might bother him...and also I don't want him to have to reply on the training fork or any other training device.


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## moomoo (Feb 21, 2007)

SonnyWimps said:


> I've thought about putting a rubber training fork (as I call them...almost like a martingale but it forms a "Y" shape...the one end hooks to the girth and the other two go on the reins...it makes it so they have to stay on the verticle and can't pull their head up) but Sonny can be somewhat spooky at times and I'm afraid that the training fork might bother him...and also I don't want him to have to reply on the training fork or any other training device.


Isn't that just a martingale? That won't help with collection and they can still spook with it on :wink: lol


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

You know... If you had Sonny in frame and kept his attention, he wouldnt be as spooky, you see, by allowing him to look around, he's not paying attention to you...


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

he's not too spooky...it's just noises that frighten him...
he's pretty good about it now


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## jeddah31 (Jun 11, 2008)

I do know how frustrating it can be torttin around on your skimpy little pony next to all these horse's with HUGE top line's and bums..

I think by watching the videos, he needs a little more impulsion. So you don't want him rushing forwards, but you want him being active with his legs. From here, I'd say to then shorten up your reins and ask for some collection, but as you do this, keep your legs n, and keep DRIVING him forwards, INTO the bridle so to speak.
If you pick up a dressage whip/lunge whip (if your arms are long enough) hold the heavy end/the handle in one hand, and put the tip of the skiny end on your other plam. With the end your holding push it into your hand. If you do this properly, the whip should bend down. This is what shold happen when you push you horse INTO the bridle.

Remember to hold soften. Once your horse puts his head down and is travelling forwards, soften the feel of your fingers as if to say, ok your a good boy, you can do it without my help now..if he puts his head up, pressure goes back on, but AS SOON as he softens, you soften. bringing your hands to the correct position could just take time, once your horse has built up some muscle to start with


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

When you feel like you are floating then you know you have achieved a true collection and your horse is working off his hind end.

Try this exercise: With your horse standing still, pull the reins back low until you are making a hard contact with his mouth. At this point your horse may not know what to do, he may back up or pull against the bit, or he may tuck so that your reins get very loose, but hold firm. Sooner or latter he will relax and the reins will get lighter in your hands.

At this point – be sure you are relaxed in the saddle – move him forward but do not yield the reins. He will begin to move from his back end and you should feel almost weightless. It may take an hour before he figures it out but sooner or latter, if you are holding tight and sitting relaxed, he will yield to the bit in the correct frame and you can move him off.


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## jeddah31 (Jun 11, 2008)

although i can see where your coming from, i dont entirely afree with that,,iridehorses..
a lot of horses may fine that excercise incredibly confusing. your technically asking your horse to walk backwards., and if not that, forcing it's head down with pressure! the horse needs to come to it itself and not be pulle constantly in the mouth just to put his head down. how does pulling his head down, achieve him working through his hindquarters and over his back? 
Horses are very simple creatures, and you have to be so clear with your aids to achieve anything the correct way, unforetunately, it isnt as simple as "pulling your reins down low".
sooner or later he may relax, but not the right muscles, and he wont be relaxed due to accepting the bridle, he'll just be plain sick of having so much **** pressure put on his mouth for no reason.
This will not work, and will never, establish "true collection" in a horse. For true collection to be established, it must be moving forwards and driven into the bridle, not pulled in the mouth to put his head down


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

jeddah31 said:


> although i can see where your coming from, i dont entirely afree with that,,iridehorses..
> a lot of horses may fine that excercise incredibly confusing. your technically asking your horse to walk backwards., and if not that, forcing it's head down with pressure! the horse needs to come to it itself and not be pulle constantly in the mouth just to put his head down. how does pulling his head down, achieve him working through his hindquarters and over his back?
> Horses are very simple creatures, and you have to be so clear with your aids to achieve anything the correct way, unforetunately, it isnt as simple as "pulling your reins down low".
> sooner or later he may relax, but not the right muscles, and he wont be relaxed due to accepting the bridle, he'll just be plain sick of having so much **** pressure put on his mouth for no reason.
> This will not work, and will never, establish "true collection" in a horse. For true collection to be established, it must be moving forwards and driven into the bridle, not pulled in the mouth to put his head down


You are missing the finesse. You are not yanking the horse's head down but holding low and keeping contact until your horse yields to the reins then you can ask him to move foward keeping contact with the bit.

BTW, that exercise is directly from the clinician, Ray Hunt. I've used it and it is a wonderful feeling when it comes together. If you would like, it is on page 18 of the June issue of the AQHA mag, America's Horse. I've read and followed Ray Hunt's exercises for a long time and they do work. I just happen to see the article the night before I posted to this thread.


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

Sonny is good about keeping a "headset" even with a fairly loose rein, but it's the rounding of the back that he doesn't understand.


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## upnover (Jan 17, 2008)

There's an article in this month's Practical Horseman that says: "Collection is a gathering of energy. You create this energy by cueing your horse to be more active with his hind legs, then you can contain this energy back through his body by making half-halts with your reins. The result is a shortening of the horse's frame and stride, without any overall loss of power." This is completely different then headset or frame, which I think the thread has started to evolve to. (in a good way, to really achieve collection and topline your horse needs to know how to properly go on the bit)

So when a horse is properly on the bit he will be soft in the mouth, reaching under with his hind legs, which raises his back (which all of this you know). But the back part I think is very hard to feel if you don't know what it's supposed to feel like. It's very very slight and an overall feeling more then just "his back will lift". You have to be very careful with what you read and how you interpret things when it comes to riding/training. What may feel one way to one person can be described differently by another person. I wouldn't necessarily describe collection as floating (although I can see why some would). I'd describe is as more of a springy-ness with softness. I'd also be careful so that you don't think of collection or going on the bit as a checklist of things to do, because it's not just 'ok, got the head set, now one to his hind end." It's more of an overall thing that goes together and can't (shouldn't) be separated. It's going to start off very slight before you achieve true collection. From the videos I've seen I wouldn't say that Sonny really knows how to go on the bit, although the "headset on a loose rein" you've described may be the start of submitting to pressure. The side reins you have on him are very loose (as you said!) so aren't really doing their job as side reins.


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

If at all possible I'd like to not sure any type of training device...I have been getting him to give me a faster paced trot and seemed to extend his head down lower (well his neck) but was still on the vertical (or so my friend said).

I'll get some pictures of him doing that to see.


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## jeddah31 (Jun 11, 2008)

iridehorses said:


> jeddah31 said:
> 
> 
> > although i can see where your coming from, i dont entirely afree with that,,iridehorses..
> ...


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## CaEcho (May 7, 2008)

My absolute favorit... 

horse belly lifts
I do it on young horses too to make sure that as the spine and back form, (since it is the very last thing to be complete) nicely. 


Also alot of nice flat ground work is a great place to start, esp. with poles. Start with a walk, end with trotting, and lots of it. That helps them set their body up naturally to carry themselves.

Once your in the saddle more, HILLS, lots of hill work. Up and down will help with the back too. Or if you can, lunge him up a small / medium hill to teach him to use his back and core for support.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

jeddah31, You are still missing the point. Either by half halts or holding your horse's head and then asking for forward motion, you are causing him to drive with his hind end which will cause his back to round and you will get the feeling of weightlessness that you are trying to achieve.

You are not cranking his head down but rather causing him to be restricted - it is a finesse that you must feel. A heavy handed rider or one using mechanical methods will not feel the lightness and therefore the moment that it come together. There will be a balance between restriction and motion and your horse will actually feel like he is weightless in your hands as he drives with his back end. 

I urge you to read the article. Ray Hunt has been a favorite of mine for years and this exercise is perfect for what she is trying to accomplish. I'm sorry that you can't see it.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

Let me add that it is the moment that you feel your horse drive with his rear that you ease up enough to allow the forward motion but not by throwing away the reins but by less then an 1" give. He should feel restriction but by now, not so much that you are halting him, just causing him to drive from behind. If I can find a way of presenting the article here I would.


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## jeddah31 (Jun 11, 2008)

iridehorses

I do understand the concept your trying to explain. A lot of what I think you mean is a pressure release system, take contact, apply pressure, when the horse soften, you soften. 
You explained it by saying, pull on the reins until the horse puts his head down..not quite the right wording when trying to give someone advice.

However, the horse needs to be going forwards BEFORE it establishes its head carriage, by blocking that head first, you must push forwards so much to achieve anything correct, a horse can not use his hind legs and back if he is not travelling forwards. so, in my opinion, why bother starting in the halt?

the problem that SonnyWImps is having, is the raising of her horses back. You can see in the videos of her riding him, that he has little to no impulsion. The method that you've tried to explain, for this rider, having this problem, on this horse, will not work. This horse is barely going anyway to begin with, by blocking his head carriage, at this point, is just going to block his hindquarters more so. This horse, with this rider, needs to be pushed FORWARDS before anything can be achieved.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

Jeddah, . I understand what you are saying but forward movement does not relate to back end impulsion unless there is some restriction of the front end. Picture a train being pushed from the rear while the brakes are held on the front car. The train will bunch up - then at the correct time the brake is eased up but not enough to undo the bunch up. That is the horse rounding his back while driving with the rear and the rider holding just enough to allow propulsion without allowing the front end to take over the drive. 

BTW I think we should start a new thread if this is to continue since we are taking up a lot of this thread with our differences.


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

I am seeing now that he responds better to a wester...he does seem to round more (I put my hand behind the saddle...then ask him for collection, and then after a while I just have him either stop or keep going but no collection) and I can feel his back raise a bit and then fall when I let go of pressure and let him have his head

so I'll get some videos of that.
Question though, I know some people said he was rounding in his for sale video and such, but how can you tell?! I mean there's a western saddle on, western saddle pad, and I couldn't tell myself if he was....


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

SonnyWimps said:


> I can feel his back raise a bit and then fall when I let go of pressure and let him have his head
> ....


Sonny, that is what I mean by not yielding too much rein. You still need to hold contact with his mouth and give him resistance. That is what will keep him driving with the rear. If he falls off the bit then you gave too much.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

iridehorses said:


> SonnyWimps said:
> 
> 
> > I can feel his back raise a bit and then fall when I let go of pressure and let him have his head
> ...


Very true. You have to maintain contact to let the horse work into the bridle.


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## jeddah31 (Jun 11, 2008)

i understand what u mean. i always have, the context u explained was a different one to what u are saying now. thats all im gonna say

you can tell that the horse i raising its back when overall the whole top of the horse looks round. If its not working over the back, but the horses head is just down the horse will look broken in the middle, as if to say, the back seems to dip in slightly and not carry itself. heres two example pictures.

you can see how in this photo the horse is rounding over the back, supporting itself up. (this is this horses 9th ride ever. she's just 3 years old, 16.3 and 7/8th and is a pure warmblood)









this photo you can see even though the horse looks (almost) round, the back dips down and in. this horse is not working over the back


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

no I know if I release pressure with his mouth he'll stop using his hind end...and I let go of the pressure to see if he was actually rounding....I never ride without contact to the bit

My friend is coming tomorrow to ride with me so I'll get some videos if she'll film


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