# Who should pay the vet bill?



## Doveguy

Our mare foaled in the early morning hours. The horse is worth about $10,000 and the foal already cost us about $4,000 so they are pretty valuable foal and mare. We call for a vet to come. The on-call vet calls back and sez they don't come out for a birth. We call back and beg and plead because the foal hadn't found the milk yet and the mare seemed distressed. She wouldn't come. When the office opened I called and asked what the policy is and they asked how everyone was doing. They said it would be a good idea to send out a vet and draw blood on the foal but they wouldn't just come out for a normal birth. (Back up 2 years, this mare gave birth and retained her placenta which the vet came out and fixed)
The vet didn't come out all day. The next morning, the mare is down and near death. The vets come running out and spend all day. She had a retained placenta and it nearly killed her. The bill to fix the mare is over $1500. should I pay this bill or is it the vets responsibility? They would have found the placenta and fixed her and there would be no big bill if they had attended us as we asked and begged. What do you all think? Am I right or what? Do vets have some sort of malpractice protection? The vet that did come out said he always wants to be there for a foaling and the top vet in the office said the same. The vet on call that morning just didn't want to get her a$$ out of bed and deal with my problem.


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## BlondieHorseChic

I understand the vet not wanting to come out at such an early/late time but when you called again (during office hours?) i would think that they would have immediately sent a vet out. Especially in this economy, i would think the moment a call came in someone would be on their way out in hopes of getting a little income. (not trying to sound better then you, but would you mind re-wording that last sentence esp one of those 3 letter words. thanks)


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## Spastic_Dove

Vets do carry malpractice insurance. You can sue them but it's a long, obnoxious process that can put you out of a lot of money. Probably not at all worth the $1500 vet bill. 

Did you try to call any other veterinarians when the on call vet said they wouldn't come out?


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## smrobs

That is something that must be taken up with your own lawyer. The civil laws regarding liability can vary greatly from state to state and especially country to country (don't know where you're from). Since it is unlikely that any of us are from your area and even if some are, it's even more unlikely that they are not experts on the laws and precedents of your local court system, any advice you got here would be a shot in the dark at best.

My suggestion is to consult with a lawyer and see what they have to say.


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## farmpony84

I would find another vet for one. I don't know what the liability is on them not coming out for the baby, it's strange for me because my vet comes out for births because the first 24 hours is critical and they want to make sure the baby is getting the colestrium. (however you spell it). I geuss vets have their own policies... I know that experienced breeders will make the decision to call the vet but they really know what they are looking at....


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## raywonk

OH my gosh. I think you are going to have to pay the bill. But you could try a bluff get a lawyer to send a letter saying that you are preparying to sue if they do not ubsorbe the fee. It wont coast that much to do that. I would all so talke to the owner of the clinic and if they did not see what happend I would then black ball that vet and tell alll my local friends. We pay the over time and the farm call and what ever they want to take on cause we wake them up. They picked the job. You called cause you did not feel like it was a normal birth. If you thought it was normal you would not have called. Oh if that vet worked for my vet clinic (which I grew up with the owner) they would be fired.
Maby not for the first brush off but for the second bruch off during office hr.


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## PaintHorseMares

Doveguy said:


> The bill to fix the mare is over $1500. should I pay this bill or is it the vets responsibility? They would have found the placenta and fixed her and there would be no big bill if they had attended us as we asked and begged. What do you all think? Am I right or what? Do vets have some sort of malpractice protection? The vet that did come out said he always wants to be there for a foaling and the top vet in the office said the same. The vet on call that morning just didn't want to get her a$$ out of bed and deal with my problem.


If you're even thinking of trying to sue, a lawyer needs to be your first call, otherwise I would discuss the situation with the vet that owns the practice.

This question did make me curious since we have three mares, however, and I spent some time reading information about the vet rules/regulations/etc in NC from the state statutes and NC vet board. In my _casual_ reading, it appears to me (and I am not a lawyer) that malpractice can only occur _after_ the vet has _accepted responsibility _for treating the animal. To be safe, I suppose that if we ever decided to breed one of our mares, I would insure that we had an prior agreement with the vet to be available (or an associate) for a farm call when the foaling occurred (even though our vet answers his cell 24x7 and has never taken more than an hour to arrive regardless of the day/time).


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## maura

Doveguy, 

I think a critical question to answer is whether or not you informed the vet or the vet's office that the mare had a retained placenta. I would think 4 hours after the birth is plenty of time to allow for the mare to pass the placenta, but it's been a while since I foaled out a mare, so I'll defer to others on that one. 

Also, I think you have to subtract out whatever a standard foaling call would cost, including standard, non-emergency treatment for the retained placenta, because you would have been paying for these regardless of when the vet decided to come out.

I'm also curious as to what part of the country you're in - in my area, vet attended foalings are common, and a vet visit the morning after to check over the mare and foal, pull blood for an IGG, etc. is absolutely routine. We were also instructed to save the placenta in uncomplicated foalings so the vet could double check if it was completely intact of if there was a retained piece during the morning after check.


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## Doveguy

I am in N. Virginia. I have known this vet office for years and have respect for lead vet's competence. It was the on call vet who refused to attend and the front office women who said it wasn't necessary to attend us. It is my opinion that the office staff made the error of not sending out a vet. I consider it an error of omission. They didn't do something to cause the problem but the problem happened as a result of them not attending. They know we rely on them and we are happy to pay for their expertise. Our vets are busy and have to be careful to not just waste time on calls where they are not really needed. The problem is they decided I didn't need them when I really did need them. Then when the did finally come, there was damage because they didn't come when I called them to come. I am happy to pay for the exams and the placenta levage and what they did that they would have done if they had come out in a timely manner but all the crisis management and emergency work was a direct result of them not attending on time and they should pay for that. I will probably send a letter to the lead vet and ask for a corrected bill. It will be interesting to see where this goes.


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## wyominggrandma

Working for a two vet office here in Wyoming, they rotate their call nights so someone is on call 24/7. However, I realize in some areas the after hour emergency vets are not the normal one on call. Was this vet one of the normal vets from the office?
I doubt you can sue for something that wasn't done in the beginning and then cost more later on. Because I will assume the vet that did not take the call will say" the client did not inform me of a pre exhisting issue of a retained placenta when she placed the call and did not say it was an emergency. I felt the check up could wait until non emergency hours in the morning and I was never informed she called again that morning for a checkup". 
If you did not inform the on call vet that the mare did have issues, then the vet assumed it was a normal birth and all was okay. Now, sounds as if the receptionist decided on her own that the call was not important the next morning, and sounds as if she made the decision to not tell the vet you called.
My advice is this: go into the veterinary clinic and ask to speak to the main vet. Or make an appointment to talk to him. Then explain the situation, but be honest with everything you said, and be sure to say you did not explain about the previous retained placenta, but still assumed the on call vet would come out as you asked.(after all they get paid emergency prices for after hour calls and I am sure the main practice owner would like the income)Then explain you called the next morning and the receptionist(name) did not feel it was necessary for the vet to come out right then and although you waited all day, a vet never came. (which tells me the receptionist never gave the request to any of the vets)Explain by the time the next morning rolls around the mare is near death and only then does a vet come out. 
If you talk to the main owner, I imagine he/she will do a reduction in the bill to make you happy and to keep you a client since it seems the practice failed your mare and you. 
If your mare had died, then yes you could have filed a malpractice suit, but again the first issue brought up would be that you did not say the mare had a history of retained placenta when you first called. You made the first mistake by not informing the vet about the placenta, the vet was lazy and did not want to come out during the night, the receptionist failed the next day it seems and then finally they did come out. I bet your main vet will reduce the amount owed. Just be calm and explain how you feel. good luck


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## HowClever

May I ask whether you tried to get in touch with a different vet clinic at all?

If not, then I wouldn't even be thinking about kicking up a fuss.


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## wyominggrandma

Actually, I was thinking the same thing HowcClever. I would have been calling vet after vet until I found one to come out if I felt it was an emergency.


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## Doveguy

Thanks for the input. We did talk about the retained placenta possibility and my wife pleaded for the visit. There are just countless things that could go wrong so when we were refused the second time, I called the office for clarification on the policy. When I spoke with the lead vet he said it was his policy to attend a birth. It seems there was a breakdown in the office. The vets say a birth is something they should attend but the office has to make a decision about where to send the vets. The office never scheduled the vets to attend. I don't think it is my responsibility to mention every possible issue that could be taking place with my horses. They should have known that births can go wrong in a hurry. At the very least, they should have sent out a vet after the 12 hour time to draw blood on the foal.
I have no relationship w/ any other vets. My vet has been my vet since he was working out of his garage. Now he has three large animal vets and two small animal vets working under him and it seems there are growing pains. I think my problem slipped between the cracks and I just didn't get the care that I requested and needed. 
As for suing my vet, I never said I wanted to sue him. At this point, I owe him money. He would have to sue me. If my mare would have died, then I would have to consider suing him. He is a friend from way back and I hate the whole problem. 
If I had refused or delayed allowing the vet to attend or had never called and requested they attend, then the bill would be rightfully mine to pay but because they didn't attend when I repeatedly requested it and then still never attended after they said it was their policy to attend (after 12 hours) then I feel the damages were caused by their lack of attention and the monetary damages should be paid by them.


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## Doveguy

It is easy to say that you would call vet after vet until someone attended but I trusted my vet to give me the service that I need and not necessarily the service that I want. They said I didn't need to be attended. My mare and foal seemed perfectly fine. I believed them and relied on their expert opinion. When I called that morning after the office opened, I asked the open ended question and relied on the answer. I am not a horse expert know-it-all. That is why I have a vet. I am not in the habit of arguing with my vet about what is best for my horses or when I need to be attended. It is really simple. I relied on their answer and the damage was done because of it.


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## Sahara

I would have a conversation with the lead vet and tell him your concerns. It might get you a bill reduction. At the very least, it gives the lead vet some much needed information about how his office is currently being run.


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## farmpony84

I honostly would consider a new vet. I can suggest some for you...


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## Alwaysbehind

Doveguy said:


> It is easy to say that you would call vet after vet until someone attended but I trusted my vet to give me the service that I need and not necessarily the service that I want. They said I didn't need to be attended. My mare and foal seemed perfectly fine. I believed them and relied on their expert opinion. When I called that morning after the office opened, I asked the open ended question and relied on the answer. I am not a horse expert know-it-all. That is why I have a vet. I am not in the habit of arguing with my vet about what is best for my horses or when I need to be attended. It is really simple. I relied on their answer and the damage was done because of it.


This post reads very differently than this other one.


doveguy said:


> We did talk about the retained placenta possibility and my wife pleaded for the visit.​





​


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## Spastic_Dove

I would explain your concerns to whoever is in charge at the clinic and then look at building a relationship with a new vet. 

Chances are you're going to be responsible for the bill, but maybe they will give you some sort of reduction as someone already mentioned.


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## wyominggrandma

I understand what you are saying, but it is your responsibility to make sure the office people know you WANT the vet to come out. If you feel your animal needs a vet, then you tell them that. Office personal are usually just that, office personal. Most of them don't know the difference between an emergency or not, you have to tell them. Force them to listen if need be. Demand to talk to a vet.
As an animal owner, YOU are ultimately responsible for the care your animals receive. I understand your loyalty to this vet, BUT there may come a time in the future that you have to rely on another vet at another office.
You need to explain to this vet friend how you feel you were treated. Then the vet needs to evaluate his office personal and find out where the bottom fell out of this mess. However, even if your horse or foal had died, YOU are still the one that would be considered wrong. No judge in the world is going to make your vet pay for something they did not do. Even if it fell through the cracks of the front desk, even if the vet felt they did not need to come out, YOU are the one to have to decide to find another vet if your animal is in trouble.
If one of your family members was having a heart attack and you went to the doctor and the doctor was gone, would you wait for that doctor to come back or go find another doctor? I realize this is sorta a stupid comparision, but YOU sometimes have to make decisions based on the needs of your animals, even if that mean using another vet. Ultimately you are responsible for the decision not to get another vet out that night, for not continually calling the vet clinic the next day until they sent someone out and waiting until your horse was down and having the vet finally show up. There was nothing to stop you from calling another vet except your loyalty to the friend vet, and it almost cost you.
Sorry, I am not trying to be harsh here, but when someone calls us at the clinic and says they have an animal in trouble and we say do you want a vet out right now.. If yes, we sent out a vet as quick as we can. If they say" well maybe I will watch the animal for a day or so and it dies, it is not our fault. .
I love the vets I work for and have worked with them for years and years. BUT, if I had an emergency and neither could come out because they were both busy, you can bet I would be calling another vet immediately, if my animals life was in jeapordy I would not be waiting around. Plus your vet the friend, should understand that.
You are responsible for the bill. Period. But I still imagine you can explain what happened and he might do a reduction. Do not expect the office personal to be able to decide if you need help, most are not experts and can't make a decision like that. Our practice is small and the vet techs do the front office also, we are able to help give advice to a point, but always go to the vet to either ask them to talk to the person or tell us what to say. Some offices are so big and busy, the front people just make appointments.


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## Doveguy

Wyoming, Thanks for the extensive input. That is exactly why I posted the question. I have my perspective and opinion but I am not sure that it is right. Before I approach the vet office, I want to better understand their perspective and you have provided that very well. 

The whole problem is stemming from my inability to know how to recognize danger signs. Of course when my horse is down, I would call another vet if my vet said they couldn't or wouldn't attend. The problem is my horse had a retained placenta and had no signs of it. You might ask if I examined the placenta but I didn't know what I was looking at. 

Early in the morning, my wife did remind the on call vet about her concern about a retained placenta but later when I called, I didn't remind the vet about that. I just asked if or when they would come and should they come out. My point is the vet did have a policy of wanting to be present at births or as quickly following a birth as possible but his on-call vet didn't follow his policy and his office staff didn't prioritize my need even though I didn't push to be attended and didn't really even recognize that I had a need. I guess the vet could say, it is my responsibility to know when a vet is needed but in this case I couldn't tell but they should have known that I was in need. Now it sounds like I am whining. 

Thanks for everyone's input. As usual, it is helpful.


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## Alwaysbehind

To me it sounds like the planets all aligned and twice things just did not work right.

I am hesitant to point fingers at the vet(s) or you.


In your case I would make an appointment to sit down with the head vet of the practice to discuss having the bill lowered because of the issues. This will also give you an opportunity to explain what happened and hopefully give your vet some insight into an area of the practice that needs looking into.


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## mls

You are talking in circles. 

The decision to own horses is yours. The decision to breed your mare is yours. The decision to not have her foal at a facility that is equipped to handle special needs cases is yours.

When you called in you asked IF they attended a foaling. MOST mares do just fine on their own - thus the office would say - no they do not need to attend.

YOU need to pay the vet bill.


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## wyominggrandma

No you are not whining. But like I said, yes you trust your vet to take care of your animals, but the front office people might not have a clue you are putting all your trust in them and wanting them to tell you what to do next. so, next time, either ask to speak to a vet or have a message that you need to speak to one asap. Just remember, if YOU feel your animal needs a vet, then YOU speak up and TELL the front office you want a vet. You know your animal better than anyone. Depending on how big the practice is, you might just be a number to the front folks, but a good friend of the head vet, but get lost in the middle.Don't ever be afraid to say "I need to speak to a vet, this is an emergency".


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## Doveguy

Alwaysbehind, what I will do is write a letter which explains my thoughts and gives my perspective. He can call me or respond in writing which I think gives both of us the opportunity to say clearly what we think w/o making a knee-jerk response or saying something that we didn't mean.

MLS, I appreciate your point. I don't see where I am talking in circles. Maybe you didn't see where I wrote that the lead vet said that he would have come out immediately to check on our foal had he known that she had foaled. The office staff made a decision for him that is contrary to his personal judgment. They didn't send a vet and they should have. While most mares foal w/ no problems, the lead vets opinion is that a vet should attend in every case. Now if I had refused to let the vet come or had delayed him, the bill would be mine. The delay came from his office staff so some degree of responsibility should be theirs.

Wyoming,
I'm not afraid to demand the vet attend and I did just that the next morning when the mare was in crisis. At the time of the birth, I didn't understand that a vet should come out even though the birth seemed to me to go w/o a problem. 

Again, thanks for everyone's input. It has prepared me to better understand how the vet might feel about the situation before I talk with him.


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## maura

There's a part of this that I really don't understand -

Checking for retained placenta is pretty simple and doesn't require advanced training. You spread the placenta out and look for holes or gaps. 

No placenta at all after four hours? You have an emergency and should call the vet and tell them the mare has failed to deliver the placenta.

The mare delivers the placenta, you check it, if you think a piece is missing, you call the vet, tell them, and that's a legitmate emergency. 

The mare delivers the placenta, you think it's intact, but 24 hours later she develops symptoms of septicema, you call the vet, it's a serious emergency. 

What I don't get in this story is that you have a mare with a history of retained placenta, but don't check the afterbirth (that's what I'm concluded from what you've said, if I have that wrong, I apologize) and wait until the mare has developed symptoms of speticema before calling the vet. 

If the mare has a history of retained placenta, and I couldn't get a vet to attend the foaling, I would be checking the afterbirth *very* carefully, and probably taking the mare's temperature every couple of hours, alert to the possibility that she might develop systems. 

I don't know exactly what your experience or situation is; and I do get the sense that there was a serious communication problem here between you and the vet's office. But I can't avoid the sense that you didn't take the actions I would expect an experienced mare owner to take.


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## equiniphile

I have only read the OP, so bear with me.

Sueing your vet for the money is going to be a long, expensive process. It's best to call them up and talk with them calmly, discuss why you are upset, and hear their take on the issue.

We had a similar problem two years ago. We had a maiden miniature foaling, called the vet up, and she gave us some advice and said she was coming. Gave her our address while the mare was having major problems. Five minutes later, we lose the foal, and her response on the phone? "Do you still want me to come out?" Apparently she was sitting in the bathtub, said she was on her way, and would not get out of the tub to come.


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## churumbeque

Doveguy said:


> I am in N. Virginia. I have known this vet office for years and have respect for lead vet's competence. It was the on call vet who refused to attend and the front office women who said it wasn't necessary to attend us. It is my opinion that the office staff made the error of not sending out a vet. I consider it an error of omission. They didn't do something to cause the problem but the problem happened as a result of them not attending. They know we rely on them and we are happy to pay for their expertise. Our vets are busy and have to be careful to not just waste time on calls where they are not really needed. The problem is they decided I didn't need them when I really did need them. Then when the did finally come, there was damage because they didn't come when I called them to come. I am happy to pay for the exams and the placenta levage and what they did that they would have done if they had come out in a timely manner but all the crisis management and emergency work was a direct result of them not attending on time and they should pay for that. I will probably send a letter to the lead vet and ask for a corrected bill. It will be interesting to see where this goes.


 I would tell the vet just this and I would think they would negotiate the bill. Something similar happened to me and they didn't come when called so it resulted in an after hours emercency call which I up front told them I was not going to pay as they should have come earlier. They didn't question it and they didn't charge me


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## HowClever

Honest opinion here.

You made the decision not to call another vet. Whatever reasons you may have, you still made that choice. 

IMO, any emergency situations that arise from a decision that you made are your responsibility.

I am not condoning the vet's actions (or vet staff). They should have come out when you called them. 

However, your horse, your responsibility. If you were not happy with their decision to not attend, make one of your own and find someone who will attend.

If you trusted their opinion that they didn't need to attend, then you absolved them of any responsibility should something go wrong, which obviously it did. 

You had the option to put your foot down, either with your vet, or another vet and say "No! I want a vet out here now!" You didn't do that. The responsibility is yours and no one elses.

IMO.


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## kitten_Val

I did call several vets when my mare was in very bad pain to find the one to come out ASAP. It's not about friendship or trust, it's about my own animal in pain, which needs a medical attention. 

Personally in your situation I'd either talk to the owner of the clinic or write a letter explaining the whole situation and that you think the bill is their responsibility. That's the easiest way to go at the moment (if you don't want to sue).


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## Alwaysbehind

Doveguy said:


> MLS, I appreciate your point. I don't see where I am talking in circles.


Doveguy, did you read my post #17. You are talking in circles some.



I have to agree with HC and Maura.


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## Doveguy

Maura, Your point is well taken. If I am at fault, it is because I didn't do my job properly as a responsible mare owner should examine the afterbirth with a critical eye and determine that the placenta is still in her. 
Howclever, I don't follow your logic. IMHO the very fact that I didn't call another vet proves that I completely trusted in the care of my vet. Inherent in their decision to not come is the concept that it is not necessary for anyone to come. I didn't call them with a demand for them to come. I called them asking if they should come? The office lady said it isn't necessary to come. I trusted that advice. If I had called other vets it would prove that I was not relying on their advice.


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## Doveguy

Alwaysbehind,
Maybe my story is not clear but that morning we made three calls to the vet. My wife made two calls to the on-call vet in the early morning where she asked the vet to come and told her about her concerns
Then I made a call later that morning and I asked the office lady what was the policy.


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## HowClever

Who cares whether you were relying on their advice or not?

You obviously at some point thought, "hmmm might need a vet for this one". When you called the vet and the office lady said that you didn't need a vet and you accepted that, you, as you continue to say, trusted in their advice. 

That to me, says that they quelled any concerns that you had. The fact that an emergency arose later is entirely on you for not pushing the matter. 

It's great that you trust your vet so much, but I guarantee you that they are capable of being wrong. Being wrong does not make them bad vets, nor does it make them liable for your vet bills.

You took on the responsibility of a horse. That includes taking on that horse's vet bills. I can not even imagine trying to palm this off on the vet.


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## Alwaysbehind

What HC is saying is that you know the horse the vet's secretary does not. It is your job to express a situation to let the secretary know what is going on.

It sounds like when you called you simply stated, 'We had a mare give birth, she had problems in the past but seems to be doing fine now. Do you have a practice of doing post birth exams?'.

When the secretary said an exam was not needed you should have insisted, even saying, 'I realize it is not the norm but I, as the owner of this horse, would prefer to pay for an exam, can you please schedule me in for a same day emergency visit from Dr. Vet That I like?'.

If you felt it was important enough to call three times (which you are now saying you did), then it was important enough to put your foot down and say that it is your check book and though your worries might be unfounded you are truly worried and can you please pay for a same day emergency check.

Being the receptionist at a vets office is a fine line. There are people who feel that they sent the vet out only to make money and there are people who freak about a tiny little cut that just needed a little triple antibiotic. There is no real way for the vet receptionist to know who you are in the grand scheme of things. You only know if you truly need the vet. 

Saying you depend on them to decide is a cop out. From what you posted it sounds like you have breeding experience, I am guessing the vet assumed that you had checked the placenta, etc.


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## HowClever

Thanks AB, you did a better job of explaining that than I did.


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## Sahara

His wife spoke to the vet on-call TWICE so what does the receptionist have to do with anything? The conversation should have happened with THE VET.


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## Alwaysbehind

Sahara said:


> His wife spoke to the vet on-call TWICE so what does the receptionist have to do with anything? The conversation should have happened with THE VET.


Wife talked to the on call vet and then he called the office and got the receptionist and all he did was ask what the policy was.

That is why it matters.

Had he insisted on a vet visit that morning, which is what he wanted best I can tell from his original post, instead of saying 'um ok', then things would not have progressed.

I think Maura makes a GREAT point above that does have to be taken into consideration.


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## farmpony84

HowClever said:


> Who cares whether you were relying on their advice or not?


I have to disagree here. While it is the owners responsibility to seek medical care for his/her mare, a person SHOULD be able to trust the advice or the expertise of their vet. 

My person reaction to this is to find a new vet because this vet has lost "trust"....


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## Alwaysbehind

farmpony84 said:


> My person reaction to this is to find a new vet because this vet has lost "trust"....


In relation to this statement.

Was the on call vet part of this practice or does this practice share on call services with other practices?


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## wyominggrandma

Because I work in a vets office and have for many many years, I am going to give both sides of this.I do front office and also a vet assistant for both large and small animals.
We always discuss the after hours calls each morning before we open the office so we know what to expect if that person calls from last night, if the vet went out, if so what happened or if the vet did not go out and why.
Here is the the gist of most calls after hours:" hello, my animal is having an issue. Not sure if its an emergency, but it is doing this and that, or just had a baby, or is having babies, etc. Been doing this for a week, or two days or just started with these symptoms".. The vet listens and then says" okay it sounds as if you need me to come out because this is what is happening". Or he might say" if this has been going on for two days and everything seems to be okay, you might want to wait until morning during office hours so you won't have the emergency call and your animal seems to be okay from what you are telling me, however, I will happily come out now if you will feel better, or bring the animal into the office and I will meet you there".
If it is truly an emergency, then most often the person will meet the vet at the office or have a ranch call right then: dog having puppies, cow or mare having foaling issues, stuck foal or calf, obviously sick dog/horse, etc.. BUT, some folks will say" well, it is probably just fine and will wait till tomorrow, just needed to talk to you(the vet) before I made a decision. So, will call the office in the morning, thanks Doc".
Then the person will either call the vet for an appointment that morning or the animal will be okay.Since we know about the call, we expect to hear from the person and if they call will schedule them in at that time, whether the vet goes out or the animal comes in.(we have a large animal clinic behind our small animal clinic with operating stall, stocks, etc)
As the front office personal also, it is our duty to talk on the phone, get symptoms and then have the vet talk to them right then, or schedule an appointment, depending what the client wants. It depends on what the client says as to whether we need to schedule a ranch call or not. Whether its an emergency or not.
After reading a bit more on this thread, I am going to take back what I said about talking to the owner of the clinic and getting possibly a reduction on the bill. It is really great that you, the owner of the mare has total trust in the vet, HOWEVER the vet can only go by what you are saying to them. You can't expect them to say" my mare just had a foal, it is okay? They are not there, they don't know if it had problems in the past, at the time of the phone call, I imagine they don't even know the history of the animal in question since they don't have the previous information on the horse in front of them. You can't expect a vet to know what is going on, especially after hours. THEN the next morning you call and say" my mare foaled, what is the office protocal on being there to attend the birth". The person on the phone probably said what she has been told to say. Since YOU did not specify an emergency or even expressed some concern about your mare and foal, the office person probably did not figure you needed a vet.
If you had called me on the phone and said" what is the protocal of the office and foaling, I would have said something along the lines of" we will happily attend the birth if you want, or if you are concerned about the mare foaling or problems after the foaling, we will be happy to send a vet out to exam the mare before the foaling or exam both of them after the foaling". Would you like that? Are you having an emergency situation right now? Has the mare foaled okay and cleaned out? Would you like a vet to come out as soon as possible?
We can only do so much on the phone. We are not vets at the front office. Sure, I have worked for vets for over 30 years, and know alot and can give minor advice such as" my dog threw up a bunch of white things, what should I do".. my dog just ate decon, what do I do? my horse just went through a fence, what do I do. Any of these are fairly easy: come get worm medicine, get the dog in here right now, how bad is the horse cut? But, if a client calls and says" my mare just foaled and everything looks okay, do you need to come out and never mention the retained placenta, how am I to know you feel its important enough to get the vet out right then as opposed to later that day or the next?
YOU have to quit expecting the vet to take care of your animals over the phone since you don't seem to actually want to tell them what is going on. They can't guess anything, YOU are responsibile for letting them know what is going on, why you are concerned, etc. A vet can only do what he can do with what is given to him , he can't guess.
You owe the entire bill. You can't expect a vet to "take care of my animals with my full trust" when you don't tell them what is going on. Pay it and next time, explain WHAT is going on and WHY you want a vet out, don't trust them to know what is happening when they are not standing there or don't know all the particulars of the case.


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## Alwaysbehind

As I remind my husband on a pretty regular basis, "I failed mind reading in school".
I am guessing your vet failed mind reading too.


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## Sahara

Doveguy said:


> . I didn't call them with a demand for them to come. I called them asking if they should come? The office lady said it isn't necessary to come. I trusted that advice. If I had called other vets it would prove that I was not relying on their advice.


 
I guess this is where you lose me. The veterinary office I use has 6 or 7 vets. Anytime I make a phone call regarding one of my horses I get put on hold by the receptionist and a vet or vet assistant answers the call. The receptionists schedule appointments. The vets give medical advice. Next time ask to speak to the vet.


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## wyominggrandma

Exactly what I was saying: in big practices, the front office person is a receptionist. You don't ask them for advice, usually they schedule appointments.
In our practice, its small with two vets, so unless the vets wife is in the office doing scheduling, we, the vet techs do it all. But we are not vets, so don't give medical advice, we get the vets on the phone or have them return the call as quickly as possible if we can't relay their message to the phone caller. 
I don't beleive the vet failed this person, I beleive the person failed to even talk to a vet during the day, just asked the receptionist what to do. It does sound like the on call vet did not understand the person WANTED a vet to come out after reading more and more replies from the OP, it sounded like they called, told them the mare foaled and seemed okay and didn't actually ASK the vet to come out. I don't beleive it was the on call vets fault, I don't beleive the caller made it clear that the mare had a previous foaling issue and didn't explain how concerned they were. I can't beleive any vet would refuse to come out if a person "begged" the vet to come out. If that is true, then yes the on call vet failed and the owner of the practice needs to be notified that the vet is not doing his/her job and refused to come out on an emergency.. but, the OP can't hold the receptionist responsible for not telling a vet that a call was immediately necessary if the OP did not TELL them it was necessary.


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## Doveguy

The "on call vet" is a regular large animal vet in a three vet office. The lead vet is the founding owner. The vets take turns being the "on call vet" so someone will always be available. On the first call at roughly 5:00 AM we called the emergency number and the on call vet returned our call. We told her our mare foaled and we wanted her to come, now. About 30 minutes later my wife called the on call vet again and pleaded with her to come. The on call vet informed my wife that there was no need for her to attend. I waited until the office opened and I called the office to find out what the policy was because I thought the vet should have attended. I did not demand that they visit immediately but I asked what should be done. The office lady who has given us excellent advice for years explained that since the baby was born and nursing that it is not necessary for the vet to attend right then. I accepted that. She also told me that it would be appropriate to send the vet out 12 hours after the birth to check the foal and i understood that that would happen. I failed to describe the placenta problem to her. No vet attended. In retrospect, I should have not accepted no for an answer. 
The next day I had a conversation with the founding vet. I asked him if a vet should attend a birth. He answered that all equine births should have a vet present or if that is not possible, the vet should attend ASAP. I explained that his on call vet refused to attend when we asked her twice to come and his front office staff didn't know to send a vet out and didn't even send one out for the 12 hour testing on the foal. From my perspective, the vet should have come out when we asked her to do so at 5:30 AM and again at 6:00. The office staff should have sent a vet out when I asked what the vet's policy is at at 9:30 AM because the lead vet said to me that it is his policy to do so. And the office staff failed us again when they didn't send a vet out at about 2:00 PM which was the 12 hour mark. Even the office staff knew that it was standard policy to send a vet out at that point. My count is that they made 4 errors. 
Now if I had just called to share the news about our new foal and to let them know we have an addition to our farm, it would be the responsibility for the office staff to try to exercise the lead vet's policy by saying something like "we recommend that a vet attend" and then if I had refused to let them attend or delayed letting them attend then the results of my decision would have been my responsibility. But because they did not follow the lead vet's policy, I believe that the vet practice is responsible for some of if not all of the cost of fixing the resulting problem.

The vets in that office are competent and excellent. I cannot understand why the on call vet didn't attend. She is a vet and should have known better and we were clear and insistent that she attend immediately. If I am talking in circles, I am sorry but the whole thing is upsetting and the facts and issues are difficult to write out clearly and concisely. The bright spot in all this is that the mare and foal pulled though. If we had lost either of them, we would be in despair. I initially decided to send a letter but instead I will just make a call or set an appointment to have a talk with the lead vet. He is a good friend and I don't want to do anything to upset that. I am not going to sue my vet. He is a good guy and I bet he feels that his office let me down. It will be very interesting to hear what he has to say.


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## Doveguy

Alwaysbehind said:


> As I remind my husband on a pretty regular basis, "I failed mind reading in school".
> I am guessing your vet failed mind reading too.


That is not funny. When my wife called that on call vet. She was almost frantic and near tears with concern. She explained her concern for the mare and foal in detail including the fact that the mare had retained her placenta the last time she foaled and that we couldn't find the entire placenta. There was no mind reading. You may find it impossible to believe. I don't understand it either but it happened. If I have failed to describe how insistent she was, well I am sorry but that quip about mind reading and your husband... well I won't comment on that.

Saraha, You have excellent advice there. From now on and forevermore, I will speak only with the lead vet or his other partner.


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## HowClever

Doveguy said:


> When my wife called that on call vet. She was almost frantic and near tears with concern. She explained her concern for the mare and foal in detail including the fact that the mare had retained her placenta the last time she foaled and that we couldn't find the entire placenta.


This is what I don't understand. If you were so concerned about the mare and foal and the on call vet wouldn't come out, why did you not call another vet!? 

I know you say you trusted the vet's advice, etc, but you said right there that you called him/her twice in the space of an hour. Did he not quell your concerns the first time? But he did the second time?

I can not fathom trying to make this anybody's else's responsibility. YOU decided to accept the on call vet/receptionist's advice. It backfired. Still YOUR decision, not their's. 

The fact that your wife said that you could not find the entire placenta is yet another reason why when she/you got off the phone with that first vet you should have picked the phone back up and dialed the number of a different vet. You don't mess around with retained placentas. You as the mare's owner are responsible for getting her the care she needs. Not blindly accepting the advice you are given.


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## Alwaysbehind

Doveguy said:


> That is not funny. When my wife called that on call vet. She was almost frantic and near tears with concern. She explained her concern for the mare and foal in detail including the fact that the mare had retained her placenta the last time she foaled and that we couldn't find the entire placenta. There was no mind reading. You may find it impossible to believe. I don't understand it either but it happened. .


No, but when you called the regular office person a few hours later (we are not talking about eons later if the original call to the E-vet was at 5am) you did NOT express that concern. You say so yourself. 
You expected them to read your mind that you had concerns for the health of the mare.

I do not know the whole story of what the E-vet was doing when your wife called. With out that it is not fair to judge what the E-vet did. (If the E-vet was dealing with something more urgent and your wife, though frantic, described a good birth with the foal nursing and the office opened in a very short time I can see her not dropping what she was doing to come to your place.)

It sounds like the mistake was made when you called the regular vet in the AM and did not actually schedule a visit.


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## mls

farmpony84 said:


> I have to disagree here. While it is the owners responsibility to seek medical care for his/her mare, a person SHOULD be able to trust the advice or the expertise of their vet.
> 
> My person reaction to this is to find a new vet because this vet has lost "trust"....


IF the person on the phone gives the vet the whole story.

The first post here said nothing about the mare not cleaning 

I still say it's the owners and only the owners responsibility to pay the bill. The mare had a history of not cleaning. The owner should of said "molly foaled, we need a post foaling check".


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## mls

Doveguy said:


> When my wife called that on call vet. She was almost frantic and near tears with concern. She explained her concern for the mare and foal in detail including the fact that the mare had retained her placenta the last time she foaled and that we couldn't find the entire placenta.


You keep adding to the story. If you didn't tell the vet the entire situation at the time you called, how are they supposed to make an informed decision?


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## Alwaysbehind

As I already noted, things are not being overly consistent here. 



Doveguy said:


> When my wife called that on call vet. She was almost frantic and near tears with concern. She explained her concern for the mare and foal in detail including the fact that the mare had retained her placenta the last time she foaled and *that we couldn't find the entire placenta. *


But previously in this thread you posted this:



Doveguy said:


> Maura, Your point is well taken. If I am at fault, *it is because I didn't do my job properly as a responsible mare owner should examine the afterbirth with a critical eye and determine that the placenta is still in her. *


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## MacabreMikolaj

I scanned all 5 pages fairly briefly, but do we know WHY the vet didn't attend?

I have a main vet. And he is a busy man because he's GOOD. If I ever failed to adequately describe the seriousness of him coming out, he certainly isn't going to when 3 other people are calling with REAL emergencies.

As far as I'm concerned, not calling another vet is absolutely ridiculous. We all want to have our own vet, but _we are not the only client on the list._ Regardless of the reason why he wouldn't come out, it is YOUR responsibility to ensure your horse has adequate medical attention, not his.

I'm pretty sure you can't sue a vet for choosing not to come out, regardless of the reason. He's not on contract, he's not your employee, and if a vet was sued every time a horse died because they couldn't make it out, we'd have some mighty poor vets. 

No vet can properly assess over the phone, it's nothing more then advice, exactly as you said. I could tell my vet my horse has a 6" gash on her shoulder oozing blood, and he will advise me to just bandage it, meanwhile she has arterial spray and I have not described the injury in a way that makes him understand the story. It is MY job as a responsible horse owner to know when my horse needs veterinary attention, and obtain that attention, regardless of who I have to call.


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