# collection



## AQHA (Mar 15, 2010)

Is it the same english and western, it's just that the horses are built differently so it looks different?


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

The term "collection" has several meanings, and is used differently by different disciplines. 

Dressage riders use the term collection to mean more animation, exagerated cadence, lowering of the croup and increased angulation of the hind limbs. A collected horse is like a coiled spring and feels like it's sitting down a little behind. 

A hunter rider might use collection as a synonym for a slower or shortened gait, for instance "collected sitting trot" instead of "slow sitting trot." Hunter riders still want their horses connected back to front while they slow or shorten the gait; with the hind legs coming well under the body. 

Western riders tend to use the term collected as a synonym for slow or shortened too, but in some cases, like in Western Pleasure, to get the desired gait, they actually disengage the hindend. I believe (and I hope a reiner will help me out here) reiners use the term to mean something closer to the dressage meaning, or between the hunter and dressage meaning - a reiner wouldn't want the horse to disengage the hind end. 

HTH/


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## OhSoAppy (Jun 7, 2010)

maura said:


> The term "collection" has several meanings, and is used differently by different disciplines.
> 
> Dressage riders use the term collection to mean more animation, exagerated cadence, lowering of the croup and increased angulation of the hind limbs. A collected horse is like a coiled spring and feels like it's sitting down a little behind.
> 
> ...


That is very incorrect. 

All disciplines require the horse to be engaged. Moving from hind through to the bit. We all strive to have our horses soft, supple, engaged, and off the forehand undersaddle. 

Now the level of collection we ask for is going to be different.

A well respected Dressage clinician out here use to say Upper Level Dressage horses are so collected they are one step away from a small explosion. She used a coiled up spring as an example. They have so much power, and engagement it is fantastic for what they want to perform the movements asked of them. However, if you aren't careful you can have that 'spring' affect of energy if released incorrectly. 

I, personally, don't want that kind of energy under me. I am still looking for collection with my horse. Just not to that level.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

I'd be interested to here some opinions of some other WP and reining riders. 

I have certainly seen lots of WP horses moving with their hind ends behind them both at the jog and the lope, though it is entirely possible I haven't seen a good or correctly trained one. 

Oh, and let's define our terms, as engagement has different meanings in different disciplines. In this context, I am refering to engagement as how far under the body the hind leg travels. Dressage horses and hunters must at least track up or having signifigant overtrack. So when I say WP horses disengage the hind end, I mean the hind leg doesn't come up under the body or come close to tracking up. I would be very hard to produce the WP jog or lope if they were.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

My Reiners will ALWAYS engage their hind end. My WP horses do what they need to so long as they aren't killing their spine in the process. Obviously, a Reiner needs a powerful rear to handle all the manuevers desired. Or at least in my opinion. One of the reasons why I like the Trashadeous bloodlines. I dislike the temperment, but I love the rear despite it being hard to handle. I'd rather have that then a flimsy rear that wouldn't handle stops an rollbacks.

As for collection, I use it as a shortened stide. I teach my horses to "collect" their strides and bring their legs up more. Just like in dressage....The "passage" I believe it's called. And extention for me is the horse drawing out to a longer stride, covering more ground.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AQHA (Mar 15, 2010)

So, we start by...

getting our horses to tack up

getting them forward

then on a contact we push them from back to front into the bit

but the Head will either be lower or higher because of the horses conformation?

but before we ask them to go on a loose rein and stay collected it takes years of collection with contact?

But is it different training to get all the different head positions, some are high (Dressage) some are lower (reining) is it all the same?

I dont get it.


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## OhSoAppy (Jun 7, 2010)

maura said:


> I'd be interested to here some opinions of some other WP and reining riders.
> 
> I have certainly seen lots of WP horses moving with their hind ends behind them both at the jog and the lope, though it is entirely possible I haven't seen a good or correctly trained one.
> 
> Oh, and let's define our terms, as engagement has different meanings in different disciplines. In this context, I am refering to engagement as how far under the body the hind leg travels. Dressage horses and hunters must at least track up or having signifigant overtrack. So when I say WP horses disengage the hind end, I mean the hind leg doesn't come up under the body or come close to tracking up. I would be very hard to produce the WP jog or lope if they were.


I am the first to always say there are poor examples of WP horses. So I do absolutely understand where a lot of the misconceptions have come out from. 

However, to get a true lope, and true jog...the horse DOES have to be using itself properly from behind. Now, you may not see them overtracking exactly (Charlie our DWB/TB does this just at a walk...hence his ability to pull shoes in pasture!). However, they doesn't mean they aren't truly engaged from behind.

We don't want slow and short. We want long, but slow strides. As my trainer says, she wants to feel the hocks slap her as she lopes them. When I ask for collection in my horse, I am saying....Hey, lengthen your strides, but don't _speed _up. Similar to a half-halt.

This was a video taken of my 8 year old WP gelding on his second day of learning lead changes (don't mind his first two attempts, he was fresh into his lesson). He wouldn't be able to switch so smoothly if he was not using his hocks properly. 





 


AQHA...In terms of headset, don't worry about it. Too many people worry about where the horses head is, and they cause a 'false frame'. The head is down and 'rounded', but the back is down, and they aren't engaged from behind.

If you are pushing your horse properly from the hind, they will naturally relax into the bridle. Now where they go depends on the horse.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

One of the troubles we get into in cross discipline conversations is terms like collection and engagement. 

In the precisest (dressage) sense of the word, hunters, WP horses and reiners do not collect - the are connected from back to front, but they are not collected, because they do not have the roundness in the back, the rise in the entire ribcage, the "sit" behind or the coiled energy. The exception may some reiners while spinning - I've seen them come pretty close. However, it's still different from the sustained collected paces an upper level dressage horse maintains.

From a dressage or a hunter sense, the horse in the video is not well engaged in the hind end. She may be working from her hind end, and may be a lovely, well-schooled horse, but engagement in this sense would require that her hind legs come much further under her body. 

When I referred to WP horses disengaging their hind end, this is what I meant:

Google Image Result for http://equisearch.com/horses_riding_training/western/pleasure/karen_qualls_jog1_5.jpg

This horse is clearly also well trained, and probably a joy to ride, but not engaging the hind end in the sense I use the word. 

This is a dressage horse with good engagement:









And this is a hunter with good engagement:


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## OhSoAppy (Jun 7, 2010)

maura said:


> One of the troubles we get into in cross discipline conversations is terms like collection and engagement.
> 
> In the precisest (dressage) sense of the word, hunters, WP horses and reiners do not collect - *the are connected from back to front, but they are not collected, because they do not have the roundness in the back, the rise in the entire ribcage, the "sit" behind or the coiled energy.* The exception may some reiners while spinning - I've seen them come pretty close. However, it's still different from the sustained collected paces an upper level dressage horse maintains.
> 
> ...


I still very, very much disagree with you. The definition of Collection does not change because you change the saddle on the back. It is all the same.

How can a horse be connected through the hind to the bit, but not be collected? That IS collection.

What you are talking about is type of movement. You can not compare the movement of a Warmblood to that of a QH. They are going to appear different. Or when we are talking about FEI Level Dressage...that is very different. Most people never make FEI level to begin with.

What is Dressage? Training. Any horse with proper training should be able to compete easily through Lower Level Dressage.

Leg yields, countercantering, shoulder in etc. That all requires a horse to be on the aids. 

Collection does not mean the horse has to be overtracking. It means it should be engaged from the hind(again you do not have to be overtracking to be engaged), round through the back, and soft in the bridle. It is also relative to the breed in question. Not all horses are going to move in the same fashion as another.

The horse in the video is not 'into the bit' at all times. However, she is giving him his head so he is more able to switch leads as he is learning.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

> The definition of Collection does not change because you change the saddle on the back. It is all the same.


I'm trying to take a cross-discipline approach and allow for looser, less precise definitions of the term. If I take your approach, that there's one and only one definition, then you're right - only dressage horses (and reiners for brief periods) truly travel collected. Horseman in other disciplines are using the term incorrectly because there is no lowering of the croup, increased angulation of hind limbs or raising of the barrel. There horses are *connected*, not 
collected.



> How can a horse be connected through the hind to the bit, but not be collected? That IS collection.


No, it's not. It may be how your trainers or people in your discipline refer to collection, but it's not collection in the classical sense. Connected through the hind to the bit is connected, or on the aids or on the bit or in the bridle. All those terms mean something entirely different than collection. 

It's truly not important that you and I agree on the terminology. What is important that you understand that outside of your discipline, the terms "engagement" and "collection" do in fact have different uses and different meanings. 

If you refer to a horse with moderate engagement that's on the aids as "collected" be prepared for horsemen within your discipline to accept that description and dressage riders to reject it vigorously.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

OhSoAppy said:


> This was a video taken of my 8 year old WP gelding on his second day of learning lead changes (don't mind his first two attempts, he was fresh into his lesson). He wouldn't be able to switch so smoothly if he was not using his hocks properly.
> 
> YouTube - Tigger first lead changes


While your horse has more cadence than most WP horses I would point out that creating a crooked horse to get lead changes is not in my repertoire of good training practices.

I found very little in this video that I would call smooth.

Horses moving with this level of impulsion rarely win WP at the national level. They have as you said shortened the stride but are they collected...not in the least.

Wwith 4 beat canters and jogs barely above a shuffle the lack of impulsion negates the term "collected"


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## Pro (Apr 23, 2009)

lol...You guys have just confused me!

Can someone please define collection, and engagement. And what exactly does tracking up do for collection. I dont understand the way your explaining it. Well I think I thought I had an idea of it before!


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## OhSoAppy (Jun 7, 2010)

Maura,
I'll give you this. True collection is said not to start until 2nd Level Dressage (to the level you are going). So yes, you are right...no horse unless it is performing Upper Level Dressage movements are 'collected'.

However, I think it would be fair to say the greater number of amateur riders do not reach _that _level of riding, and thus don't reach that level of collection.

That is not to say, the horses are not going correctly, and are using themselves properly. That is my one and only point.

Spyder, Thanks for the chuckle.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

I like this website where they discuss "True Collection"


::: Sustainable Dressage - Collection & Its Evasions - True Collection - What It Is and How to Achieve It :::


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Pro said:


> lol...You guys have just confused me!
> 
> Can someone please define collection, and engagement. And what exactly does tracking up do for collection. I dont understand the way your explaining it. Well I think I thought I had an idea of it before!


In its simplest definition collection is the even loading of weight on all four legs that allows for no resistance to the riders demands and in fact the horse has given its body controls entirely up to the rider.


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## AQHA (Mar 15, 2010)

but i dont see to may western horses with there heads all up like that.

look at the difference.

look at the videos, are all the horses collected?

are both was gained the same way, just the confo of the horse makes it look different?


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## OhSoAppy (Jun 7, 2010)

AQHA, I personally don't like that video of Stacy Westfall as an example for reining. The horse is brideless, and has nothing to search because of it. The mare's head is up simply because she can't finish the connection. 

Rugged Lark is a better example of what I think you are asking:


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

OhSoAppy said:


> The horse is brideless, and has nothing to search because of it. The mare's head is up simply because she can't finish the connection.


That statement alone tells me you don't have full understanding and subscribe to the fallacies of "headset".


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## OhSoAppy (Jun 7, 2010)

Spyder said:


> That statement alone tells me you don't have full understanding and subscribe to the fallacies of "headset".


 
This tells me you don't know how to read.

Read previous posts by me here, and you will see I mention about headset and to not fall 'claim' to that. As I posted to AQHA...don't worry about where the head is. If the horse is moving correctly from behind, they will eventually come down and relax into the bridle. 

My comment about bridleless, is a horse will naturally have its head slightly over the verticle if they don't feel the connection of the rider. You can't compare that video of Stacy Westfall and the natural position of that horses head(who I do feel is using herself very nicely) to a horse in a double bridle. Of course they are going to 'look' different.


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## AQHA (Mar 15, 2010)

So both horses heads are out, but there both collected in the vids?

EDIT: wrote^^^b4 i saw the post above. still have to read it, but i though id say that.


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## AQHA (Mar 15, 2010)

So these horses are collected with the headset.???





 
the height of the head is not from collection, its the horse coming into the bridle and the position is a lot to do with the conformation????


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## OhSoAppy (Jun 7, 2010)

AQHA said:


> So both horses heads are out, but there both collected in the vids?
> 
> EDIT: wrote^^^b4 i saw the post above. still have to read it, but i though id say that.


Forget headset completely.

What you want to see is a horse off its forehand (elevated rise in the front when moving not 'plunking' on the front end), cadence in its movement, and length in its stride.

When a horse is 'on the bit' they are not infront of or behind the verticle. But have achieved enough impulsion from behind to move fluidly and finish the connection through the bridle.


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## AQHA (Mar 15, 2010)

another question. so how do you get the collection. by driving the back end into the bit? just have the contact and push with you legs and after the horse does good a few strides release?

then try on a looser and looser rein (after they fully get it) and they will start to hold it themselves?

if u do that then the head sets nice w/o even thinking about it then right?


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

OhSoAppy said:


> You can't compare that video of Stacy Westfall and the natural position of that horses head(who I do feel is using herself very nicely) .


Actually the horse is not using itself nicely. The canter is almost 4 beat and 80% of the time it is on the forehand.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

AQHA said:


> another question. so how do you get the collection. by driving the back end into the bit? just have the contact and push with you legs and after the horse does good a few strides release?
> 
> then try on a looser and looser rein (after they fully get it) and they will start to hold it themselves?
> 
> if u do that then the head sets nice w/o even thinking about it then right?



Actually the answer is no. That is a good way to get the horse stiff in the jaw.


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## Pro (Apr 23, 2009)

^^How?

I know it's too long to go through the whole process, but can you explain it a little bit please?


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Pro said:


> ^^How?
> 
> I know it's too long to go through the whole process, but can you explain it a little bit please?



Rein control can be yielding, sustaining or receiving ( and will run the gamut of this range) but should never become fixed. 

A fixed or held rein allows the horse to bind the riders hands and any attempt to undo this becomes an effort in futility. You will feel a dead mouth and any freedom for the hand to act will be taken away and used by the horse as a fifth hand.


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## Pro (Apr 23, 2009)

So you mean a "sponging" motion with the riders hands?


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## OhSoAppy (Jun 7, 2010)

Spyder said:


> Actually the horse is not using itself nicely. The canter is almost 4 beat and 80% of the time it is on the forehand.


Her mare doesn't come close to 4 beating. 

This is almost ...if not... a 4 beat lope....and extremely heavy on the forehand:


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

AQHA, 

To answer your question from a previous page; none of the three horses you posted photos and vids of are collected. 

The dressage video is of an event horse doing a First Level test; collection starts at second level. That horse is not a great example of the terms we're discussing. 

In the photo of the western horse loping; that horse is connected back to front and moving from his hind end, but not collected.

True collection in the dressage sense feels like a sports care revved up to the redline but with the clutch in. You know if you let that clutch out a lot of energy is going to escape. 

To try to answer some of your other questions; a horse doesn't have to have lots of overtrack to be considered engaged. I use engagement to mean how far under the horse's body the hind end comes before striking the ground and pushing off. Some people use engagement simply to mean that the horse is working from the hind end, and that the hind end is active. Not right or wrong, just a different meaning depending on context. 

Additionally, with horses that jump, you'll hear trainers refer to "engaging evenly" - this means that when the horse pushs off to jump, the hind feet are together and pushing off at the same time. A horse that doesn't engage evenly, and leaves one hind leg back, as in the canter stride, can't jump as athletically because there's less "push." It's a heavily penalized fault in hunters. 

Overtracking is desirable in hunters because it means a ground covering stride. 

Overtracking is desirable in dressage horses because as you move through the levels and work on collected paces and advanced movements, you will lose some of that reach under the body. If you start with a horse with lots of overtrack at the lower levels, you'll still have adequate engagement in the collected paces and advanced movements. If you start with a horse that barely tracks up, and then lose some degree of engagement as you move up, the collected paces/advanced movements will be very hard to achieve, weak or incorrect as the hind end won't be fully under the horse. 

A final note - if you only understand and use terms as they apply inside your discipline, that's fine. However, if you're interested in becoming an educated or well rounded horseperson, it's great to understand what the terms mean in their original sense and how they're used in other disciplines. That doesn't mean someone else is wrong when they refer to a WP horse as collected; it just means that they mean it in a limited, discipline specific sense.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

OhSoAppy said:


> Her mare doesn't come close to 4 beating.


Actually your horse has a far better true canter, in spite of you flopping its head back and forth.


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## Pidge (Sep 5, 2009)

As a person just now coming to this thread and wanting to work on some 'collection' myself...might I see if I have my stuff strait?

Collection is a loosly used word with different meanings in different diciplines, but the dressage meaning is the most traditional and correct one. Engagement and collection are also two different things....

Currently I believe my horse is engaged...he doesnt over track or have the rounding in the back but he is on the bit and has an active hind, I can feel him using it and driving with it and he isnt heavy on the forehand...so he is enganged and possible connected but not collected because he isnt rounded? atleast in the dressage sense? correct?

Now if we are talking about true collection/dressage collection that means the horse is rounded and tracking up with his butt under him and he is also connected on through the bit and not heavy on the forehand...do I have that about right? in general?

so if thats true collection then there are also the lesser amounts of collection seen in specific diciplines?

Such as a hunter who will track up and over track but who usually doesnt have as much of the rounding or any rounding (correct me if im wrong...im not a hunter person)

Or a WP horse who may track up under themselves and use their hind and be conected and off the fore but who doesnt round or over track...

So 'collection' in general is dicipline specific but true collection is dressage style collection?

Also a horse who has a disengaged hind and that is heavy on the fore, and that is above or below the vertical/ just downright not useing themselves properly is not collected...

Does all of that sound about right to everyone? I think I might actually be getting this but I want to be sure...


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Pidge said:


> Currently I believe my horse is engaged...he doesnt over track or have the rounding in the back but he is on the bit and has an active hind, I can feel him using it and driving with it and he isnt heavy on the forehand...so he is enganged and possible connected but not collected because he isnt rounded? atleast in the dressage sense? correct?


Look at my definition I posted earlier. If it meets that definition then there is collection. 



> Now if we are talking about true collection/dressage collection that means the horse is rounded and tracking up with his butt under him and he is also connected on through the bit and not heavy on the forehand...do I have that about right? in general?


Don't get early collection mixed up with advanced collection. The collection will increase but but it does not become _true_ collection just because the horse has increased its carrying capacity over time and training.



> so if thats true collection then there are also the lesser amounts of collection seen in specific diciplines?


Again look at my definition, that applies over ANY discipline.



> So 'collection' in general is dicipline specific but true collection is dressage style collection?


Simple answer is no... look at my previous answer.



> Also a horse who has a disengaged hind and that is heavy on the fore, and that is above or below the vertical/ just downright not useing themselves properly is not collected...


That is correct for it does not meet the even loading requirement nor has it given up its body fully to the rider.


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## Pidge (Sep 5, 2009)

Ok thank you spyder very helpful...there is just so much typed up on this thread that it became rather confusing...


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

Now I'm getting muddled too! Let me refresh:

(Spyder quote): In its simplest definition collection is the even loading of weight on all four legs that allows for no resistance to the riders demands and in fact the horse has given its body controls entirely up to the rider.

That might be a simple definition, but it describes such an extreme state, it would mean practically no one experiences it.

Unless you consider collection something that comes and goes. I usually think of it as Best Posture, when you're in perfect balance, and yet have the strength and readiness to jump in any direction, right then and there, whatever the rider has in mind. Strangely, the image I keep in mind is the experienced barrel racing horse, who is coiled up at the start, waiting. Once he starts, I guess the collection is lost! In any case, I think the word IS used differently in different sports.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Beling said:


> Now I'm getting muddled too! Let me refresh:
> 
> (Spyder quote): In its simplest definition collection is the even loading of weight on all four legs that allows for no resistance to the riders demands and in fact the horse has given its body controls entirely up to the rider.
> 
> That might be a simple definition, but it describes such an extreme state, it would mean practically no one experiences it.


Quite the contrary for what I described is the first stage and is not difficult to attain if you work at it. The difficulty is that the average rider can only discern extremes of movement, gait and posture but a practiced or trained eye can see the slight nuances and shifts that occur and are able to read them like bold letters in a book.



> Unless you consider collection something that comes and goes. I usually think of it as Best Posture, when you're in perfect balance, and yet have the strength and readiness to jump in any direction, right then and there, whatever the rider has in mind.


Collection does not come and go unless the rider influences that transition. If done on purpose then the horse has given itself up to the rider. If it fluctuates without the riders input then the collection or assumption of collection is flawed. 




> Strangely, the image I keep in mind is the experienced barrel racing horse, who is coiled up at the start, waiting. Once he starts, I guess the collection is lost! In any case, I think the word IS used differently in different sports.


No collection can exist in the horse coiled up waiting for something to happen. By its very nature collection in not present in any horse standing still. Therefore from your description collection cannot be lost since it didn't exist in the first place.

One more thing...No matter what position you are in, relaxation MUST be present. Any suggestion of tenseness negates the true meaning and _FEELING_ of collection.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I think the _perception_ of collection is changed by the discipline. Ultimate collection in it's truest form is usually found in the Dressage ring, right? You will very seldom, if ever, find any western horse anywhere that will have the same level of collection. Most people in the western world consider a horse that is on the bit and engaged and pushing off the hind end (like a good reining horse) collected, even if it doesn't necessarily fit the exact definition.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

smrobs said:


> Most people in the western world consider a horse that is on the bit and engaged and pushing off the hind end (like a good reining horse) collected, even if it doesn't necessarily fit the exact definition.


Actually I would for it fits my description. May be on a lower scale of collection but by the same token people not in dressage think only the upper level FEI horses exhibit collection but it is there in its earliest stages in the lower levels.


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

The "even loading of all 4 feet" is confusing to me, when I try to understand it with a "lower scale of collection." Does the lower scale mean a little more on the forehand, or even-loading but not as "together" or engaged? I don't see any lower-level horses that are perfectly balanced on 4 legs, as you describe; not when ridden. The barrel horse I described was actually pretty calm, he was very experienced, in his twenties. He could do a neat little piaffe, he really wasn't excited (except when he finally took off). A baroquish-looking little QH. If he wasn't collected, what would you call it? (I didn't think this topic would start me re-thinking things, thanks for bringing it up!)


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Even loading on all four legs is a requirement that must be satisfied to start into an advanced state of collection.

Collection cannot start for the meaning of this term is that the horse is straight and only a straight horse can continue on farther into collection. It is from here that you will see the more advanced stages of collection when the load shifts farther back and the horse now has the balance and power to place its hind legs farther under its body and you can see piaffe's with the lowered hindquareters.

Remember only a straight horse has the harmony and balance within itself to be at the beck and call of the rider's wishes. I just find that most people still don't understand straight and how it is the basis to build your further training. You see thread after thread here that the rider is saying the shoulder is popping out, or they can't work one side or the horse leans...all are problems with straightness/even loading. It gets more frustrating when they say I have collection but the horse is stiff on one side.

I could easily go to each thread and post "Your horse is crooked".


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