# Looking for dilute genetics on seal brown horses



## wakiya (Feb 7, 2009)

There are a few brown based bucksins here:

Morgan Colors- Buckskin Morgan Horses

I've seen more duns that tested brown-based than cream dilutes


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Wakiya, a horse cannot be "brown based", they are black based because horses can only be black or red based. Brown horses are black based and carry the black gene, which is where the buckskin came from.

Interesting concept though. I wonder if the different agoutis react differently when cream dilutions are applied, so I'm subscribing to this.


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## wakiya (Feb 7, 2009)

Oh I know they can only be black or red and that agouti only works on a black base, I just meant under the cream they were brown not bay
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Miss Meghana (Mar 21, 2011)

A crossing of a 'seal brown' horse and a cremello/perlino would generally result in a buckskin foal. This is because a 'seal brown' horse is actually a bay.

The only thing different between the two is that bays have a black muzzle, and seal browns have ginger-ish muzzles and points (like between the thigh and barrel).

If passing genes were unknown (like homozygous agouti, etc.), there is a 58.34% chance that the foal will be buckskin, 33.33% chance that it'd be palomino and 8.33% chance for smoky black. Again, these are the chances on a bay/seal brown horse crossed with a cremello, neither of which have been tested for heritable genes.

Hope this helped!


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Meghana, Bay and Brown are different colours. Seal browns are not bays. The two colours are caused by two different forms of the Agouti gene. Theoretically, the cream gene should act differently on the Agouti gene that causes brown than the Agouti gene that causes bay (I cannot remember their exact names right now) because they are different genes.


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## Miss Meghana (Mar 21, 2011)

I'm sure there is a slight genetic difference (how else would the colors come differently?). Read this:


"The Agouti gene controls the distribution of black pigment. This pigment can be either uniformly distributed or distributed to "points" of the body (ear rims, lower legs, mane, tail). Agouti has been linked to a deletion of 11 nucleotides in the agouti gene. The 11 nucleotide deletion of this gene is the recessive form of the gene. Only when the agouti gene is homozygous for the deletion (aa) is the black pigment evenly distributed. Heterozygous (Aa) or homozygous for the absence of the 11 nucleotide deletion (AA) results in point distribution of black pigment. Agouti has no effect on homozygous positive red factor (ee) horses for there has to be black pigment present for agouti to have an effect."
~Animal Genetics Inc., Animal Genetics


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

I know how it works, but I think what the OP was wondering was if they caused slight differences in what the cream dilutes would look like or if they come out as buckskins looking the same.


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## Miss Meghana (Mar 21, 2011)

I'm pretty sure they would...? As I said before...


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

But I don't think there's a whole lot of research on it. They're two separate, but similar genes that make two separate, but similar colours. You would think that adding another gene would make two more separate, but similar colours. Does that make sense? Technically, the Brown + Cream _should_ look different than a Bay + Cream, but not that different.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Ok I just pottered around and found out about brown based cream dilutes.

They are called Smokey Brown. As you would expect, having obviously looked at smokey blacks, the black hair in the coat is very often not affected by the cream at all. However, the lighter 'soft' parts of the horse are. It is quite attractive

http://equine-color.info/content/smokey-brown-frosting

Here is a horse that everyone is quite sure is brown based with cream. He hasn't been tested as yet.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

I just found one too on the link that Citrus posted in the thread about Citrus's colour. Apparently Cream on brown works similar to cream on black and doesn't affect the colour much. 

Here's a picture and the description. You can see the golden hairs ticked in her coat. 









*"The late ABI'S NANCY OAK (left), (Adanac Redd Oak X Adanac Abigail), 1989 brown mare with her 2004 brown buckskin daughter UCM LAURA SECORD (by Amberfield's Vanilla Ice, cremello). Most people would not look at Laura and think she was a buckskin. But since one cream gene has little effect on black, and brown horses are mostly black, this is the result. She is slightly lighter with a more golden undertone than her dam, and seeing them side by side makes this interesting comparison possible. Owned by Upper Canada Morgans." *

Both of these guys are very pretty. I like this colour. Haha.  The one you posted, Chiilaa, looks verrry similar to my friend's extremely sooty buckskin. Strange, but cool


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## 4theloveofhorses (Mar 3, 2011)

Thank you all for the wonderful info. What I have found is the "dilute" gene works in many different ways. It depends on what "base" color your horse is then dilutes out that color. There are ssooo many different variables when looking at the different colors that I have compiled a list....by no means is this list complete and feel free to add to it.

Bay based horses:
Mahogony Bay
Dark Bay
Red Bay
Red based horse: (which are 2 distinct genes)
Chestnut (ruano/tostado) varies the shade.
Sorrel (ruano/tostado)
Black based
Jet black (does NOT fade) tends to be more homozygous also
Black (tendency to fade in sunlight)
Seal Brown (black with varying degrees of brown, isolated around muzzle, eyes, flanks and inside of the legs)

Now add all the other genetic mutations to these "base" colors
Roaning
Dilution genes (either 1 buckskin, palomino, or 2 cremello, perlino)
Grey
Dun
Champagne
Rabicano

Now add some more flair with paint genes
Overo
Tobiano
Sabino
Tovero
Splashed White (a pattern of overo)

Now when breeding according to Dr. Ed North in his book "Breeding for Color" we can have up to 51 different color combos....and thats only with one mutation....sssoooo what would happen if we bred a double dilute with a homozygous dun gene to a sorrel mare with a rabicano AND sabino genes??? The list would go on and on.....thats what makes guessing colors so much fun and interesting!

BTW thank you for the link to the morgan horse website, that was exactly what I was looking for...the genetic testing for seal brown and pics of the results!

Virginia


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Hate to point out to you but there is only TWO base colors in horses.

Red and black. Everything else is a modification. 

There are _not_ two separate genes found at this time to cause the different shades of red in chestnut/sorrel horse. They are exactly the same genetically. 

There are not two types of black (fading/nonfading). They are exactly the same genetically. 

There are only three agouti (bay type) genes, bay (A), brown (At), and wild bay (A+).


Your pinto/paint genes are incorrect as well.

Pinto genes - 
Frame
Splash
Sabino
Dominant white
Tobiano


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## 4theloveofhorses (Mar 3, 2011)

Wonderful picture of "Abi's Nancy Oak" and her foal, that is exactly what I thought...although the 2 I have express the gene with a very distinct "chocolate" base coat with a "buckskin" coloring around the eyes, muzzle, flank and legs...I guess it just depends on the "base" coloring they would have been without the dilute gene....love it though!


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## 4theloveofhorses (Mar 3, 2011)

NdAppy said:


> Hate to point out to you but there is only TWO base colors in horses.
> 
> Red and black. Everything else is a modification.
> 
> ...


 
Maybe I should have been more clear....the BAY gene is a red BASE with black points, the variations of that gene could be anywhere from a "mahogony to a light shade of red with BLACK POINTS, ears, lower legs, mane and tail, of course there are variations of that also...with the black being just below the knee/pastern up to the mid-gaskin. Of course there are Black Bays that appear black but are BAY BASED. 

There are 2 distinct variations of chestnut/sorrel...the genes have not been discovered on the allele but the work of Dr. Ann Bowling at UC Davis, California has identified a distinct variation of the red based horses (chestnut/sorrel) geneticists/testing labs for this reason do not identify the 2 distinct variations.

There is still work being done on the reason why there is a "Jet Black and a Fading Black" and which individual genes produce the variations, as stated above just because they havent identified those genes doesnt mean they don't exist. As such a testing lab won't identify the difference, although they have found that a "Jet Black" will produce more homozygousity that a "Fading Black".

They have identified a "Seal Brown" as a genetic modification on a black based animal...somewhere they believe that a bay and black had some sort of genetic miscommunication during genetic recombination. "Seal Brown" is a heterozygous trait.

Pinto/Paint variations are:
Overo...a splashed white and frame are variations of this gene.
Tobiano is a seperate mutation and can breed true or homozygous
Tovero or "medicine hat" a horse that phenotypically will express both an overo and tobiano gene.
A "Dominant White" is an extreme variation of the sabino gene, which is thought to be a mutation of the overo gene. Since a horse can phenotypically express a sabino characteristic or an overo characteristic they are working to try and distinguish where the mutation occured. They are doing pedigree research in conjunction with the American Paint Horse Association on this. There is a beautiful TB Stallion that is a "White" which is double registered through the APHA, he is genetically an extreme sabino, his mother has produced 3 of them. There have only been 17 documented cases of "white" horses being registered through the Jockey Club. 
There are also a lot of "splashed white overo" horses that are maximum whites also. A big difference between a "maximum sabino white" and a "maximum splashed white" is along the pedigree lines there are "deaf" horses being produced by the "splashed white" lines. In my opinion it has more to do with the success of those individual horses being bred than anything else.

Some very good sites to do research:
UC Davis, California
Cornell University
University of Kentucky
and 
The Journal of Veterinary Medicine (usually your local library has a copy or ask your vet for his/hers)

The Animal Gentics labs are good resources but because they usually only give information on the tests they produce much more digging is required for accurate information.

If you have access to a University library, you can find current journal abstracts through there. 

Brazil and Japan have been doing a lot of research but the info is difficult to get a hold of.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

4theloveofhorses said:


> Maybe I should have been more clear....the BAY gene is a red BASE with black points, the variations of that gene could be anywhere from a "mahogony to a light shade of red with BLACK POINTS, ears, lower legs, mane and tail, of course there are variations of that also...with the black being just below the knee/pastern up to the mid-gaskin. Of course there are Black Bays that appear black but are BAY BASED.


I'm not sure what you mean by the "Black bay" thing..but Bays are BLACK BASED horses. Bay is Black + Agouti.

Agouti doesn't put black on a red horse, it tells the black on a black horse that it can only be on the horse's points.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

*headdesk*


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

4theloveofhorses said:


> although they have found that a "Jet Black" will produce more homozygousity that a "Fading Black".


 Sorry I had to pick up on this. I think it's a wording problem. Say a Jet Black is EE and a Fading Black is Ee for the sake of arguement, yes a Jet Black will pass on a E all the time however it won't produce more homozygous foals unless the other horse is also EE. Homozygous means both alleles are present, being homozygous doesn't mean they will produce homozygous foals, it just means they will always pass on that gene, they can't pass anything else on. Again I think it's just a wording problem.


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## wakiya (Feb 7, 2009)

Chiilaa said:


> Ok I just pottered around and found out about brown based cream dilutes.
> 
> They are called Smokey Brown. As you would expect, having obviously looked at smokey blacks, the black hair in the coat is very often not affected by the cream at all. However, the lighter 'soft' parts of the horse are. It is quite attractive
> 
> ...


AH! That's Whiskey a Spanish Mustang, I think he did test to have cream... not sure but I'm almost certain he is also brown


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## Miss Meghana (Mar 21, 2011)

Can we just end this, please? I am beginning to get really turned around, because there are, like, seven different things people have said, and only one of them is true.

By the way, Chiilia, thanks for the link to the article. Very helpful. 

A good color tester is www.horsetesting.com. Might have already given the link, though. Sorry if I did.  They also have a feature where you can test different coat colors. Here:
Color Calculator

Hope you can use it!


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

The basics are that there are only *two* base colors. Black and red. Everything else is a modification. Agouti (bay, brown, and wild bay) modifies black restricting black to the points of a horse. As of right now I have not found _any_ research stating that there is a genetic difference in the shades of red.


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