# Antique bits



## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Love them. Curious to hear their value, if you'd be so kind as to share.

I'd like to start a (small) collection of antique/unique bits, but have no clue where to start.

Oh, and this may interest you: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-tack-equipment/hey-cowchick77-other-bit-people-108597/


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Wow that's a cool collection! Very shiny


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Those are cool Jim!

My father in law claims him and a few guys used to cowboy in those military bits. I guess they used to be easy to come by. I see them on Ebay and wondering how you tell the difference. I see people describing them as #2, #3's and so on. And there is a lot of knock offs.

If you don't mind sharing, I would like to know.

It is not the style my husband and I collect, but I am curious.

What style bits are looking to collect Bubba?


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

Very cool, thanks for sharing!


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## jimbits (Jan 7, 2012)

Hi all...
Value? Well, that's a moving target, of course. My first bit ever was a model 1859 US Cavalry bit (similar to the one pictured, 2nd from the left). I think I paid $75 for it almost (cough, cough) 36 years ago. May have overpaid, but it belonged to my grandfather who sold it at his dispersal sale (24 head of Belgians and TONS of tack and equipment). And, should I ever sell my collection (doubtful) I'd almost certainly keep that ONE bit.

Anyway, they'll more typically fetch at least $150 (and easily more) these days. I've seen 'em go for $300+. There's nearly ALWAYS at least one m1859 for sale on ebay.

Condition, as with most things, is VERY important and ya gotta be careful...there are a LOT of fake "US" bosses/medallions out there, even on genuine bits. Also, that m1859 bit itself has been reproduced for YEARS. 

Easiest way to tell fake medallions...they are usually what i refer to as "muddy"...the letters aren't sharp, the edges of the boss itself aren't sharp and the background (behind the letters) is rough, not nicely etched. Easiest way to tell a fake m1859 bit...there'll be a "flare" where the mouthpiece meets the cheek, the port isn't a U bit looks more like a rounded off V and, more often than not, the fakes have stainless steel/shiny rein rings and slobber bars. One maker of reproduction m1859s is "MAST" and, if you see that mark on a bit, it's for sure a fake.

The original 1859s came in 3 port heights, along with the ring bit (nasty, nasty thing!) pictured at the far left. That ring (also found in lots of Mexican bits and some European ones as well) went AROUND THE LOWER JAW if you can imagine that! Fortunately very few of these ring bits were issued by the gov't so fewer horses had to suffer. 'course that also makes them very hard to find and pretty high priced. Tough to find these, assuming the seller knows what they have, for less than $300 and they can bring LOTS more.

Collectors sometimes do refer to the m1859 as a "#1", "#2", "#3" or "#4" which is a reference to the port height (respectively 2.25" for the ring bit, 2.0 inches, 1.5" and 0.5 inches).

The other 4 bits in the picture are US (federal) artillery bits from the Civil War. Note the slots (versus rings) for the reins...keeps the lines straight...and the upper rings (except that one 2nd from the right which I've since replace with one which HAS rings). The first of the four is a m1859 first pattern bit...it has plain, brass-faced bosses. The next one is the m1859 SECOND pattern bit. It's built a little heavier than the first pattern and has "US" bosses. Next is the m1863 artillery bit. Note the "slot" versus hole for the curb chain (or curb strap) and the sharper "S" curve in the shanks. This model has a beautifully designed "intertwined" "USA" boss. Again, this bit was issued with the upper rein rings but this particular example (and quite a few I've seen) have had the rings cut off. The last bit (far right in the picture) is a modification of the bit to its left. A post-war order stated all new bits and any bits being repaired should be tinned (instead of brass plated). At the same time the heavier bosses (like those found on the m1859 cavalry bit) replaced the lead-filled, thin brass shelled "USA" boss. 

Value on these artillery bits runs somewhat higher. I'm guessing they were produced in much smaller quantities. I'm not really sure what they're fetching these days (I've not been paying much attention lately) but I'm guessing they might start @ close to $200 for good ones.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Thank you so much for sharing your info! I find it fascinating, I had no idea they used ring bits, like the Mexicans...I have never seen one- I don't think. If I had I would assume some crazy homemade modification! And thanks on explaining the port sizes...I have always wondered.


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

jimbits said:


> I gotta say the folks on here are just about the nicest I've ever found on-line! So welcoming and with great comments and questions.
> 
> I'm hoping other bit collectors will post some of their "prides and joys"...favorite bits from your collection...and I plan to do the same every once in a while.
> 
> Take care everybody!


Really glad you like it here Jim! Love seeing the old bits.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Ever type up a really long reply...and then lose the whole thing? Yeah.

Cowchick, I really don't know what I want--if I had to pick, I guess it would be "Americana" cowboy-type bits. I adore your Californio/vaquero collection, but there's no way I could ever afford real works of art like that, and besides, I know that if I had a spade bit I'd be tempted to use it, and I can't imagine that would go over well. Though I do just love the look of good spades. I love Jim's Civil War bits, too, especially since I went through a big Civil War phase in school. The thing about Crocketts and the like is that I really don't know the history enough to appreciate them, and so I'm just not impressed. In short, I don't know WHAT I want, but I want SOMETHING--never mind that this is a terrible time to start a collection, as I need to be saving rather than spending money. Say, anyone want to trade a handful of five-year-old Reinsman barrel bits for something nice? :rofl: 

Please keep posting pictures, Jim, Cowchick, and anyone else. I at least enjoy drooling over them and learning.

And on that note, question on the artillery bits. I'm assuming they were used on the horses/teams who pulled the cannons and such, right? Were they used with two sets of reins, like a Pelham (which would be a huge handful for the drivers), or as curb/snaffle only depending on need, or somehow else entirely?

This is silly, too, but I don't know if you saw the movie _War Horse_, and I'm curious if those bits were authentic.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Thats funny you mention that....I typed up a storm only to have my laptop crash. Ctrl-Alt-Delete couldn't fix it...it required pulling the battery out....can you get turned in for computer abuse?

So I shall do a quick synopsis of the post I had intended.

If you decide to a get a bit or two the style my husband and I have let me know. I am more than willing to help and we have plenty of contacts. And you don't have to go with a spade mouthpiece. There are more Mona Lisa, Salinas and Frog mouthpieces out there than the spades and half breeds. And those mouthpieces are a little more affordable if your going to buy one outright.

Like I have said before, I started out with trading a horse for some bridles and had to keep trading up. Sometimes I had to trade 2 or 3 lesser bridle bits to get a better one.
And I can understand not wanting to collect something you don't have an appreciation for...why have it if you don't like it? I started out with a few Crocketts, but I found I really like the Spanish/Californio/Mexican style stuff better. Down here in Texas the Crockett, Buermann and Isreal stuff is big.


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## draftgrl (Jan 8, 2011)

Subbing to this, love any antique tack! Look forward to more pics.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Cowchick, that's a really nice offer. Doubt I'll take you up on it, all the same, as I'm half-broke as it is--but if you do happen to see a good deal that you don't want, I'd sure appreciate you passing it on.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Bubba, the elbow bit you show a photo of is a typical driving bit










It was never meant to be used with two reins. It was a bit that offered leverage options depending on what a particular horse needed. 

This is a description of the elbow from a catalog

Military Elbow Bit
The mouth on this driving bit will feature a low port with serrated indentations on one side only. Traditionally used by army and police fores. The Military Elbow bit is an alternative to the Liverpool bit. The angle of the cheeks help in preventing horses from snatching the reins. Multiple settings on the shank allow for varying degrees of control.
This bit is suitable for driving teams. Includes stainless steel curb hooks and chain. 

So, the person riding that horse in your photo is ill informed, IME.

This similar liverpoole shows one ofthe least leverage option (most commonly used) being used. The rein could have been attached like a snaffle for the least leverage. However, here it is attached to the center divider giving a very mild leverage.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Yeah, I know it's a driving bit, but I was curious about its usage in the historical time period. Was Spielberg commiting an anachronism, or would they have ever ridden with this kind of bit in WWI? The second rein, too, it's hard to see, but I wonder if it's not just secured to....the strap whose name I can't recall, but around the neck or to the saddle or whatever. That would make more since than riding with two curb reins, anyway. Although glancing at the photos again, that does not appear to be the case. I did notice that they changed the bit depending on the scene and location/uniform, so the bit choices were obviously intentional, for better or for worse....


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Probably because it is also called the "military bit" he may have assumed it was used this way. It *was* used as a riding bit, because it was handy to keep horses from being able to chew the reins easily. It was a "one bit for many uses" type of bit. It was also considered a "reversible bit often with asymmetrical mouthpieces that could be used depending on the horse's needs.

They did use two reins on rare occasions, but not like they show. It was like a pelham with the top rein on the "snaffle" ring. I see no reason, at all, to rig it as they have.


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## furbabymum (Dec 28, 2011)

Are you displaying them with Christmas ornament hangers? That's kinda cool!


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## jumanji321 (Dec 1, 2010)

I noticed the driving bits in War Horse as well and it made me get really confused.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

bubba13 said:


> Cowchick, that's a really nice offer. Doubt I'll take you up on it, all the same, as I'm half-broke as it is--but if you do happen to see a good deal that you don't want, I'd sure appreciate you passing it on.


Understandable, I will keep you in mind!


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## jimbits (Jan 7, 2012)

*Pre-Civil War bits*

Hi all...I thought I'd take a step BACK in history from the Civil War and go with some gov't. issued bits BEFORE the US Civil War (War Between the States, War of Northern Aggression, etc.)








Far left: 1840's Dragoon curb bit (traces of its original brass plating remain)
Second from left: Another Dragoon curb, same era (1840s, maybe 1850s). It appears to have been brass-faced as well
Third from left: Most likely an 1847 Dragoon curb. Fully, beautifully, brass faced.
Far right: small Dragoon bit from the 1850s. Also fully brass-faced.

thanks for lookin'!

jim


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Very cool Jim!


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Did you see my questions earlier, Jim? Any insight?


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## jimbits (Jan 7, 2012)

*the military elbow bit*

Sorry Bubba...i kinda missed your questions earlier (I assume you mean your questions about the bits in "War Horse", right?).

I went to the movie primarily to see the BITS! I was hoping they'd show British, French and German military bits but, if I remember correctly, there were only two of note worn by the title "character". 

The first bit seen is one I'm not familiar with, though I've not really done any digging on it. I'm guessing there was some research done by the people taking care of all the other tack elements for the movie. I'm guessing it's a fairly common "work" bit of the era and region. I noticed that bit RE-appears later in the movie (or one identical to it) when "Joey" is back in civilian life. 

(Some of the rest of my reply may be redundant with what others have said here. I started my reply before re-reading theirs)

The other bit, as has been noted, is historically accurate for British military of the era. What little I know (or have dug up) is that it made its initial appearance around 1893 as an ARTILLERY bit known as the "reversible Pelham" and later was officially adopted by the British cavalry and became known as the 1902 UP (Universal Pattern) Portsmouth (or Portmouth...without the "s") bit. The design certainly remains popular and widely used. I'm not sure if it's still issued by any military, but I'd not be surprised.

I've owned several of these bits in various metals and with a variety of markings...dates, "broad arrows", lots of different numbers, etc. I've seen Canadian and Australian military versions and even a Portuguese bit which was very similar in design (except that it had a snaffle mouth!) and, if I'm remembering correctly, there's a French (military) variation, as well.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

The last bit I posted--the one from the movie poster--almost looks Mexican/charro to me. I'm sure it's not, but it seemed out of place with the rest of the movie.


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