# Encountering Hunting Dogs



## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Deer hunters don't use dogs because they run the deer which makes a shot unlikely.
Dogs are used for something treed, ground birds or coyotes, maybe other things like hogs depending on where you live. Their mission is not horses.

It is creepy to ride during hunting season though all the hunters I know are very careful to be sure of their shot & anything behind it in case of a miss. Wear blaze orange.


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

I can say in my personal experience the hunting dogs are better than the hunters. I've never had one do more than bark once or twice at me and then go on their merry little way. Given the choice I would take hundreds of hunting dogs over hundreds of hunters any day! :lol:

I've almost been shot twice by irresponsible hunters however, and they didn't seem to get the fact that the blaze orange is a big hint to not shoot me or the four legged critter I'm on top of.... c'mon guys I'm not a centaur here!


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

natisha said:


> Deer hunters don't use dogs because they run the deer which makes a shot unlikely....


 Not so. In the Virginia lowlands, and other places, particularly in the South, hunting deer with dogs is a long established tradition. In the Deep South, and Appalachia, they're also used for bear and hogs. 

But to address the OP's question, whether or not hunting dogs will only go after one species of game, depends on the training. But well trained dogs do what they're trained to do. A deer dog that chases rabbits is nearly worthless. They are not likely to attack your horse. It may be difficult to convince your horse of that though. They may make a big fuss if they come across you on the trail. Hard to say if they'll mill around yapping, or make a fuss and move on. 

While the pistol is a good idea for 2 legged varmints and perhaps feral dogs, I'd advise against shooting hunting dogs. Actually, the first thing that came to my mind was one of those whips the houndmaster carries on foxhunts. 

I second the advice on the blaze orange as well. 

Hope that helps some.


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## gunslinger (Sep 17, 2011)

Why didn't you ride up to the hunter and ask?

Seriously, I raised beagles and field trailed and rabbit hunted for twenty five years. 

I don't think you have much to worry about.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

Incitatus32 said:


> I can say in my personal experience the hunting dogs are better than the hunters.


Agreed. I would worry much less about the dogs than about the vision (or lack thereof) of the hunters in the area. I have never had a hunting dog even look twice at my horse.

I would assume if you are riding in a hunting zone that you are decked out in orange gear. If not, helmet covers and vests are cheap and certainly worth it. You may want to look into bells and orange strips for your bridle too, especially if you ride a chestnut horse.

While I think most hunters are responsible, all it takes is one idiot to ruin your day.


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

Gunslinger, my experience in Virginia with deer hunters who run dogs is that you're not likely to see the hunter. The dogs run a big circuit, pushing deer past hunters on stands. The hunters are usually a good ways off of the trails. It's not a good idea to take your horse brushbustin' during hunting season. 

I like the bells idea. I've avoided riding the woods during the week in hunting season. I've viewed Sundays as the day everyone else could enjoy the winter woods. I voted against it on the ballot last month. I hunt also, but I feel like they've horned in on my winter riding. I'll jingle and sing, and hope they don't see any deer.


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## Hang on Fi (Sep 22, 2007)

I definitely was clad in my blaze orange and I'm in the process of making Fiona a quartersheet in blaze orange  

Thanks for the input guys! I'm with you after thinking about it, the hunter's are worse than the dogs 



gunslinger said:


> Why didn't you ride up to the hunter and ask?
> 
> Seriously, I raised beagles and field trailed and rabbit hunted for twenty five years.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure if this was meant to be interpreted as a "Here's your sign", but I'm not willing to approach a male hunter alone and unarmed  Most hunter's are great people, but I'll keep my distance


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

Hope this works. Couldn't help myself. Sorry!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFD34aUpeyM


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## Hang on Fi (Sep 22, 2007)

Cordillera Cowboy said:


> Hope this works. Couldn't help myself. Sorry!
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFD34aUpeyM


Don't apologize, that's a good one !


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## gunslinger (Sep 17, 2011)

Hang on Fi said:


> I'm not sure if this was meant to be interpreted as a "Here's your sign", but I'm not willing to approach a male hunter alone and unarmed  Most hunter's are great people, but I'll keep my distance


I guess that's a reasonable fear.....

I'm male, and I'm normally always armed....and as a person who spent a lot of time doing the same thing we would have much to talk about.....

Dogs running deer are not likely to be aggressive......I've hunted bear over Plott hounds and they were not aggressive....

I've had more dog problems from hikers and backpackers, and the few times that's been a problem it's been an off the lease pit bull and a hiker who "just knows" the dog is harmless.

From a serious dog man's perspective, the hunt is more about the dogs than the bagging of game. Many enjoy just watching and listening to the dogs run.....and over the years I seldom bagged the game because if I did, then the chase ended......

As far as sorry hunters.....almost all, are seldom a problem......but one bad apple spoils the whole barrel.......

I've never had a problem with hunters but to many, they're a menace in the woods.....I simply don't understand that logic.....


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Running deer with dogs must be a Southern thing.


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## jimmyp (Sep 5, 2013)

MOST hunting dogs are specifically trained to a particular game or "type". For example, our coyote hounds would run a fox, my bird dogs will point quail, Pheasant, or most any type of game bird, and most **** hounds will tree the occasional possum, or bobcat. And, occasionally any one of these dogs will bump and run a deer. 

Now with that said, the likely hood of a pack of dogs attacking you on a horse is very minimal. It is more likely that you horse will attempt to strike a dog, or that your horse will freak out and injure you. 

Now that said I will open another rant..... Your comment about sunday hunting cuts me to the bone. Just like you, I would assume, I work 5 days a week, to be able to afford the luxuries, and the hobbies that I enjoy. Why is it that you should be allowed the opportunity to ride your horse on a given day of the week, but I should have to stay at home? How are you any more special or deserving than I?

Jim


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## jimmyp (Sep 5, 2013)

As far as carrying a pistol, thats fine, but understand that in most states its a serious offense to shoot a hunters dog, and I promise you if its my dog I will likely own the person who decided it was a foot idea to shot hims house. 

I am not sure if you know this or not, but hunters have a large investment in their dogs, I have 5 in my kennel at the moment that tip the scales near the $10k mark...... keep that in mind


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## Hang on Fi (Sep 22, 2007)

gunslinger said:


> I guess that's a reasonable fear.....
> 
> I'm male, and I'm normally always armed....and as a person who spent a lot of time doing the same thing we would have much to talk about.....
> 
> ...


Unfortunately it does only take one to ruin it. I haven't had a bad experience to make me wary of them, but I tend to air on the side of caution and just wanted to see how some would handle the situation. 

I haven't ran into many hunting dogs so I was uncertain as to their aggression, or lack thereof. A couple of our neighbors have hunting dogs and are the sweetest things, I just have never really ridden much during the "In Season" and moving to Virginia is the first time I've encountered Hunter's using dogs for deer.

Thank you for your input 



jimmyp said:


> As far as carrying a pistol, thats fine, but understand that in most states its a serious offense to shoot a hunters dog, and I promise you if its my dog I will likely own the person who decided it was a foot idea to shot hims house.
> 
> I am not sure if you know this or not, but hunters have a large investment in their dogs, I have 5 in my kennel at the moment that tip the scales near the $10k mark...... keep that in mind


Jim,

I'm sorry I offended you, but Sunday was the day I didn't have to worry about the Buck Fever Hunter firing my way because he didn't want to wait for a clear shot. Like Gunslinger mentioned, it only takes one bad (anything) to make the rest of us wary. 

I understand that it can be someone's way of living and for that I am profoundly sorry to offend you, but I still don't like the fact Hunting is allowed on Sunday. *I see why*, because like you I work five days a week and having only one day to hunt really can cut someone's way of living. ETP: Just because I don't like it, doesn't mean I think it should change. I'm not that radical. Just because I don't like it doesn't mean it's a problem for anyone who does.

Just to clear things up, I would NOT blindly shoot at a dog just because he came running at my horse and I. I promise you I would put ANY animal down that attacks me OR my horse. It is a tricky subject because I imagine if it were a Hunting dog I would do anything and everything in my power to startle it. Last thing I want to do is torque off an armed Canine Owner for shooting his dog if it attacked my horse. My husband and I just had this discussion about that risk and it is one I want to avoid.

That being said before your hackles remain raised, I would be *hard pressed* to SHOOT just any dog or animal. That's a last resort, I'd rather scare it off.


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## gunslinger (Sep 17, 2011)

The message I'm sending you is this........

We often are afraid of the things we do not understand and often the fear is baseless, statically so small that while possible, not probable. Yet, stuff happens....

Like Jimmy, I've had some very expensive hunting dogs......one which got me a reserve national champion title and put me in a very exclusive club as far as the dog world goes and that dog alone was worth several thousand dollars.......

We love our horses and riding, and they love there dogs and hunting.....see...we already have common ground.

I do my best to ride in places where the season is closed so as to allow the hunters to enjoy the woods.

That's pretty easy for me as I live near the state line and the seasons are different between the states....so if the season is open in Tennessee I ride in Georgia.....

The Cherokee national forest is a WMA and only open a few days a year for big game hunting......same with the Chattahoochee in GA and most of the time if one is open the other is closed.....

We have some private land we ride, leased by hunters, who allow us to ride on it, but not in hunting season. To them I'm grateful.

I've watched the ATV crowd, along with 4x4 and motorcycles get pushed off most public land.

There are those who don't want to tolerate horses either and would prefer us not to be there......

The problem, as I see it, is when we exclude one group, and limit access to others, it makes it easier for us, the horseman, to be excluded as well.

I'm for a policy of inclusion, not exclusion. Share the land....


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

natisha said:


> Running deer with dogs must be a Southern thing.


I believe it is. And even there, it's regional. In the hills and mountains of Virginia where I grew up, it's frowned upon. However, ****, rabbit, bird, and bear dogs are common. But in the lowlands, it's a centuries old tradition going back to the stag hounds of Europe.


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## gunslinger (Sep 17, 2011)

natisha said:


> Running deer with dogs must be a Southern thing.


It's illegal in Tennessee. I think it's legal in Arkansas and in parts (swamps) of Alabama.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

jimmyp said:


> ......Now that said I will open another rant..... Your comment about sunday hunting cuts me to the bone. Just like you, I would assume, I work 5 days a week, to be able to afford the luxuries, and the hobbies that I enjoy. Why is it that you should be allowed the opportunity to ride your horse on a given day of the week, but I should have to stay at home? How are you any more special or deserving than I?
> 
> Jim


 Hello Jim. I'll address that if I may. Understanding that the folks on this thread are mostly from different states with their varying laws, regulations and cultures. I can only speak to things as they are in Virginia. Sunday hunting there has been banned at least since the beginning of regulated hunting in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. It was frowned upon by religious folks long before that. This year is the first season that it has been allowed in all that time. 

The change primarily affects public lands, state forests, and wildlife management areas. Urban sprawl has taken much wildlife habitat and with it the private lands many folks used to hunt on. The public lands have become crowded during the deer hunting season especially. There are many folks other than hunters who like to use these public lands as well. We should be allies in saving wildlife habitat rather than adversaries over turf. 

I will turn your argument back at you. (In Virginia) You have (had) 6 days out of the week to enjoy your hobby. Most non-hunters, and especially horseback riders make it a point to stay out of the woods on those days. If it's so important to you, take some vacation days. I've often done just that when I wanted to hunt. If I wanted to hike, or ride a big, usually brown, animal in the woods, I would do it on Sunday. Then there was little to no risk (not everyone obeys the law) that I would spoil a hunters chance at game, walk into an unseen hunters line of fire, or get blasted by some yahoo shooting at sounds. Why should I stay home 7 days out of the week? I was happy using only 1 during hunting season. What makes you so special that you have to take all 7?

My argument is moot now. The vote went to the Sunday hunters. I must comply, but since I did vote against it, I will still complain. I'm still sorely tempted to do as a previous commenter suggested. Maybe I'll dress in head to toe blaze orange, but bells on a horse, sing and laugh. Then take to the trails hoping to spoil as many hunts as I can.


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## GreySorrel (Mar 5, 2012)

OP before you get a conceal carry permit you really need to know the laws of firearms. Here is a good site to go to, pay particular attention to 6,7, and 8...

http://handgunlaw.us/documents/FAQ.pdf

Hope this helps you. I carry a concealed weapon often, as you just never know, riding, driving, or walking...I normally have one on me. 

As for dogs being used to "flush" game...I think it is a rather lazy man's way of doing things. Being from Nevada we did it the right way, we stalked, followed, and learned the pattern of the deer so when hunting season came around, we could find them and knew where to go. This is the lazy man's way of hunting, even my husband finds it appalling like I do. Putting out corn, salt, sweet feed, etc. until hunting season...big bad hunters. 

I am pretty jaded as we are dealing with poachers on our land and have yet to catch them, we have taken down a new tree stand, it is in our harness shed awaiting the coward who put it up to retrieve it. Our land our rules and we say who can or can't hunt on it. Sick and tired of seeing carcasses laying along our road, back strap and haunch meat taken, or just antlers or even head and antlers, everything else wasted, tired of coming upon the entrails thrown in the road...enough already. Or better yet, the "mighty hunters" who are on some yahoo neighbors land a half mile away who one late afternoon kept calling my husbands cell phone over and over and over again till he picked up, not saying who they were till he pressed, only yelling "STOP SHOOTING" at him. We have our own firing range and we are a firearms business. Once he slowly explained this to the yahoo and hung up as he won't argue, he then proceeded to text my husband. We kept the txt and called Wildlife on them and the land owner.

I am in agreement with Cordillera Cowboy, hunters HAD 6 days to hunt, now they have 7....because why?! But to each his own...I just pray if one of my horses ever gets "accidentally" shot by the bozo's we have around us who call themselves hunters, the popo get here before I get to them.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I'll add, if you're worried about the dogs yell at them.

I'm assuming if you have an actual hunting dog it's well trained and will respond and if not it still works better then anything else (Bad dog! Go!). The hunter may also hear you and call them off.

No one uses dogs around here.

A very few people may have bird dogs but that's specific and something they will drive out for. We have a lot of woods.


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

jimmyp said:


> Your comment about sunday hunting cuts me to the bone. Just like you, I would assume, I work 5 days a week, to be able to afford the luxuries, and the hobbies that I enjoy. Why is it that you should be allowed the opportunity to ride your horse on a given day of the week, but I should have to stay at home? How are you any more special or deserving than I?


I don't think it's a question of being less deserving, I think it's that the negative element ruins it for everyone--and a negative element with a weapon really makes an impact. I can speak of my personal experiences with hunters while riding on public lands and maybe you will understand why I am so thankful for the no-hunting Sundays in my state.

Before moving to where I currently live, I trained exclusively on public park land. Because of my work schedule, I rode on Wednesdays and Saturdays. The park was not a real popular one, and during the school year it wasn't uncommon for me to not see another soul on Wednesdays and the people around on Saturdays generally stuck to the dirt roads around the reservoirs versus the true trails.

Enter hunting season. I adjusted my riding times to be less morning and more middle of the day, in an attempt to not bother the hunters. I and my (light grey) horse were also decked out in blaze orange and bells. I saw very few bow hunters and the couple that I saw on multiple days were friendly--to the point they would be waiting for me in the parking lot to ask where I was planning to ride that day, so that I could potentially move the deer to them. Never had a negative interaction.

Enter _rifle_ season. Suddenly there were _a lot_ more people out, especially on Saturday. That alone wouldn't have bothered me at all, except several of the hunters were confrontational, yelling at me for riding there and ruining their day, calling me an assorted variety of names, even throwing things at my horse. I was never off the established, marked trails during any of those encounters. One particular man went so far as to fire his gun into the air in an attempt to scare my horse when I refused to leave the park!!

When I called the police, after making a hasty exit for fear the jackass might "accidentally" shoot my horse, they made sympathetic noises, but said there was nothing they could do as I didn't have the man's name or license number, etc. The cop also said that it wasn't the first time they had heard a report similar to mine from park users. :shock:

The next time I rode, I intentionally went a different way in hopes of not repeating the conflict. No such luck. Had another altercation with the same man, who was yet again walking down the middle of a marked trail and belligerent. He heard me coming (the bells), and was already facing us as he again yelled and cursed and shot into the air. This time I didn't even attempt to speak to him, simply turned around and rode away fast. Went to the other side of the park and finished my ride.

Got back to the parking lot and found someone had stabbed a buck knife through both leftside trailer tires. They were nice enough to have left the knife sticking out of the front one. :evil: Called the police, filed a report, yadda yadda. Decided it wasn't worth riding on Saturdays so found someone at work to switch shifts with me the rest of hunting season and rode Sundays instead.

An extreme example? Certainly. Do I think most hunters would behave in such a way? Hell no. However, all it takes is that _one_ to ruin it for everyone else.


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## jimmyp (Sep 5, 2013)

Cordillera Cowboy said:


> Hello Jim.
> 
> 
> I will turn your argument back at you. (In Virginia) You have (had) 6 days out of the week to enjoy your hobby. Most non-hunters, and especially horseback riders make it a point to stay out of the woods on those days. If it's so important to you, take some vacation days. I've often done just that when I wanted to hunt. If I wanted to hike, or ride a big, usually brown, animal in the woods, I would do it on Sunday. Then there was little to no risk (not everyone obeys the law) that I would spoil a hunters chance at game, walk into an unseen hunters line of fire, or get blasted by some yahoo shooting at sounds. Why should I stay home 7 days out of the week? * I was happy using only 1 during hunting season. What makes you so special that you have to take all 7?*
> ...


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

Phantomhorse, and anyone else in a similar situation: Even though what you described would be classed as assault with a deadly weapon, a felony in Virginia, my suggestion is to skip the police and call the game warden. You will still need pertinent info such as name, a photo, or a license plate #. But the police are usually not well versed in wildlife violations, and such. In addition, game wardens are not hesitant to confiscate property like weapons, vehicles, and even dogs used at the time of the violation. If found guilty in court, in addition to fines and jail time, a typical punishment is loss of hunting privileges for life.


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## Talon (Oct 22, 2014)

Hunters unless you run into a idiot have trained their dogs for one species. However that does not mean a rouge dog wont go after your horse, you dont need a gun to protect yourself though. Just remember you're on a 1000 pound bulldoser of a animal and run that aggressive thing over if it actually attacks.

I've run into hunting dogs mostly boar dogs and they avoid me completely wont even come when I call them up to me.
Be sure you wear some bright orange if you're riding in a hunting area too and getting your horse a bright orange bridle or blanket will help a lot and keep you safe around hunters.


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## GreySorrel (Mar 5, 2012)

jimmyp said:


> Cordillera Cowboy said:
> 
> 
> > Hello Jim.
> ...


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## Mulefeather (Feb 22, 2014)

Rather than carry a gun, which unless you are in bear country is usually going to cause more problems than it solves, try looking into an Airsoft pistol. Hurts, makes a loud noise, but it's not going to kill you or your horse if you accidentally trigger it. As well, someone sharing the trail will probably be upset that you shot their dog, but they'll be even madder if you kill it. 

Another option might be a gun that shoots rubber bullets, or a paintball gun. Again, these are things that hurt like heck, but they are not lethal and not illegal for the average person to own. You still need to practice and be safe with it, because ANYTHING that shoots a projectile can harm you. 

Plus, no worries about legality or carry permits.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Here's my take on hunters in general- not the idiots.
Hunters are the true conservationists. Their license & tag fees far exceed what the average horse person pays in user fees for the same public land.
They are the first ones to fight to keep public lands open for all to use.

I have come across hunters while riding, though I suspect more have seen me that I wasn't aware of. I get a polite nod, never had a confrontation.
I have been told by friends who are hunters that the riders don't bother the hunt because they usually don't spook deer. That is true. Many times I have ridden real close to a deer, followed them down a trail or had them follow me. As long as the rider doesn't speak deer do not seem too concerned about horses.

Besides the rarely visible tree stand you don't see any sign that a hunter was there. I see garbage, including beer cans left behind by riders.

Our hunt season runs all days of the week. It's muzzle loader right now & those hunters don't shoot nilly willy as most don't at any time.

I like hunters & think they look hot in camo.


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## Mulefeather (Feb 22, 2014)

Honestly, it's easier to stay out of the woods during rifle hunting season, I have found. It's only for a couple of weeks, and I would rather be safe than sorry. Or if you must ride, go to somewhere that hunting is prohibited, such as private land.

I am the daughter of a hunter and when I was married, my ex's family was full of hunters. We all have to share the trails and the woods, it belongs to everyone and everyone deserves their time to be able to use the woods and trails for their own enjoyment. 

That said, I'm not shy about using bells when riding, even when it's not hunting season. You never know who is poaching deer, especially in state game lands. Blaze orange is great, but I would rather someone heard me BEFORE they saw me. When they can see me, so can the sight on their gun...


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## gunslinger (Sep 17, 2011)

Actually, In Tennessee, hunting is a right.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gunslinger (Sep 17, 2011)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ChitChatChet (Sep 9, 2013)

I think the backpackers ought to stay home. That what really stirs up a horse, forget the dogs, backpacks are huge scary things that eat horses!!!

We backpack and the pony we used for packing had no problems with us but a backpacker went by and this calm over everything pony blew. LOL


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## GreySorrel (Mar 5, 2012)

gunslinger said:


> Actually, In Tennessee, hunting is a right.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Really? Can you please show me the law stating that hunting is a right? I wouldn't mind reading that...


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## GreySorrel (Mar 5, 2012)

Mulefeather said:


> Rather than carry a gun, *which unless you are in bear country is usually going to cause more problems than it solves,* try looking into an Airsoft pistol. Hurts, makes a loud noise, but it's not going to kill you or your horse if you accidentally trigger it. As well, someone sharing the trail will probably be upset that you shot their dog, but they'll be even madder if you kill it.
> 
> Another option might be a gun that shoots rubber bullets, or a paintball gun. Again, these are things that hurt like heck, but they are not lethal and not illegal for the average person to own. You still need to practice and be safe with it, because ANYTHING that shoots a projectile can harm you.
> 
> Plus, no worries about legality or carry permits.


I bolded your comment about firearms because that is nonsense. I carry a firearm to protect myself, my family and that which I hold dear. I carry a firearm because it is my constitutional right which I exercise, as is my right. Anyone who is versed in firearm safety, knows to KEEP their trigger finger off the bang switch....They are also put in a safe holster that protects one from inadvertently hitting or pulling the trigger. 

Please, unless you shoot, are very familiar with firearms or are in the business, all of which I do and my husband is a competitive shooter, please, that comment is unneeded and as I said, utter nonsense. :neutral:


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## gunslinger (Sep 17, 2011)

I can't paste a link on my mobile device but the Tennessee constitution was amended in 2010 after citizens had the resolution placed on the ballot and then voted it in. 

Google hunting is a right in Tennessee.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

jimmyp said:


> Cordillera Cowboy said:
> 
> 
> > Hello Jim.
> ...


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## GreySorrel (Mar 5, 2012)

gunslinger said:


> I can't paste a link on my mobile device but the Tennessee constitution was amended in 2010 after citizens had the resolution placed on the ballot and then voted it in.
> 
> Google hunting is a right in Tennessee.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well I stand corrected..thank you Gunslinger...found it.


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

GreySorrel said:


> Really? Can you please show me the law stating that hunting is a right? I wouldn't mind reading that...


Gunslinger is correct. This varies state by state. In Tennessee and Virginia, it is not a law, it is a constitutional amendment which makes it a constitutionally protected right in those states at least. In Virginia, it is against the law to harass anyone lawfully hunting or fishing.


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## gunslinger (Sep 17, 2011)

Making hunting a right could create more problems than it solves. For example, how can you impose a tax (license fee) to exercise a right?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

gunslinger said:


> Making hunting a right could create more problems than it solves. For example, how can you impose a tax (license fee) to exercise a right?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ah Gunslinger, now you've opened up another tangent. I suppose you're right. It's an argument that 2nd amendment supporters have been making for a while. 

But, as was mentioned earlier, hunters have financed a great deal, if not the majority of conservation efforts in the US. I've winced at every increase in price for my hunting license, but knowing where the money goes, I'm happy to pay it.


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## gunslinger (Sep 17, 2011)

So, is interfering with hunting a civil rights violation?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

gunslinger said:


> So, is interfering with hunting a civil rights violation?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I charge $100 per hour for legal consultations.


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## gunslinger (Sep 17, 2011)

Cordillera Cowboy said:


> I charge $100 per hour for legal consultations.


Can I have a statement of work? What do I get for the $100?


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## gunslinger (Sep 17, 2011)

Actually, I just read the TWRA is proposing a hunting license fee (tax) increase as well as implementing a user fee(tax) for horseback, mountain bikes and ATV'S. 

Hunting and fishing license sales are shrinking, IMO due to over regulation. 
Fees serve to limit access to public land.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

gunslinger said:


> Can I have a statement of work? What do I get for the $100?


For $100 per hour, sir, I will expound at length with homespun eloquence, honed and polished by years of off duty cussing and dis-cussing various and spurious topics with soldiers, truckers, and rodeo cowboys. For $200, I may even look at a book or two, but I will certainly bring to bear several things my late Grandmothers told me long ago.

For what it's worth, Virginia also implemented those user fees two, maybe three years ago. Holding a hunting or fishing license exempts one from those fees.


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## STT GUY (Apr 23, 2014)

Cordillera Cowboy said:


> Phantomhorse, and anyone else in a similar situation: Even though what you described would be classed as assault with a deadly weapon, a felony in Virginia, my suggestion is to skip the police and call the game warden. You will still need pertinent info such as name, a photo, or a license plate #. But the police are usually not well versed in wildlife violations, and such. In addition, game wardens are not hesitant to confiscate property like weapons, vehicles, and even dogs used at the time of the violation. If found guilty in court, in addition to fines and jail time, a typical punishment is loss of hunting privileges for life.


Screw that...buy a 12 GA side by side and scabbard. Carry it and watch how "equal" you become.


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## gunslinger (Sep 17, 2011)

I ride with a western gun belt and ruger vaquero. I'd love to have one of the new Winchester 1892's to go with the vaquero.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gunslinger (Sep 17, 2011)

Cordillera Cowboy said:


> For $100 per hour, sir, I will expound at length with homespun eloquence, honed and polished by years of off duty cussing and dis-cussing various and spurious topics with soldiers, truckers, and rodeo cowboys. For $200, I may even look at a book or two, but I will certainly bring to bear several things my late Grandmothers told me long ago.
> 
> For what it's worth, Virginia also implemented those user fees two, maybe three years ago. Holding a hunting or fishing license exempts one from those fees.


Okay...a hundred is to high and out of my price range....what can I get for a dollar?


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

Save your one dollar sir. It will buy you a flake or two of hay. More preferred would be sharing some coffee or other libation around a campfire with the likes of you and JimmyP. 

Perhaps we could be serenaded by some good hounds running a **** through the night.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I dress my horse and I in blaze orange, carry bear bells and play my MP3 player. I try to warn hunters I am coming before I get there. Oddly enough, I still see lots of deer and elk even when I am noisy out in the woods. I think they are curious. I have had a bull elk bugle to me while going through the woods with bear bells. I guess they are so hormonal they like any high pitched sound.

I generally don't have bad encounters with hunters.....they are more an annoyance then anything else. I will be out there bugling for elk and have to deal with the fact I may be calling in hunters as well. But I look at it like I have every right to be out there enjoying the woods as much as they do. Our elk season goes on and off all fall, from late August into mid December. A couple weeks on, a week or so off all season long. So I am not giving up my riding for hunters, rifle season or not, because I want to be out there too. I just try to be really conspicuous and pray we don't get shot. I don't bugle during rifle season either, only before hunting season or during archery.

I've only encountered hunting dogs once. They kept on traveling as a pack and left our horses alone. They are used to hunt bear and mountain lion in Arizona. I've never heard of them being used for anything else.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Keep in mind I'm sure many hunting dogs are used for horses.

Just had to add I had no idea they had elk in AZ


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

In my state CA , you can bird hunt with a dog, and the only other hunting with dogs is bobcat and racoon’s. Now I have not ideal why you would want to hunt either of those animals, as i do not think they would be very tasty.. I have no use for a person who hunts and does not EAT the Meat. You shoot it you eat it. People I know, do not usually go ride in the Mountains usually during deer season in the areas Open to hunting. There are poachers, but the fines are steep in this state if you get caught.
I do not know of any hunting dogs that are used for horses. Hunting horses is not legal here.


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## PaintHorseMares (Apr 19, 2008)

Cordillera Cowboy said:


> Not so. In the Virginia lowlands, and other places, particularly in the South, hunting deer with dogs is a long established tradition.


Hunting deer with dogs is legal in parts of NC, too (depends on the district). We had a problem around here a few years back where hunters would wait by their trucks, send their dogs into the woods on the other side of road to flush them back towards the road, and then shoot *across* the road as they came out of the woods. Luckily, they have since made shooting across the road illegal.


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

stevenson said:


> In my state CA , you can bird hunt with a dog, and the only other hunting with dogs is bobcat and racoon’s. Now I have not ideal why you would want to hunt either of those animals, as i do not think they would be very tasty...


Don't know about bobcat, but (from my childhood memories) raccoon can be pretty tasty if it's fixed right. Sure beats the heck out of hungry


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## Foxtail Ranch (Mar 10, 2012)

I have a gun and you don't need a CWP to carry it openly while you ride here in Oregon. But I do not take the time to train my horse to tolerate it. If I shot my pistol from horseback, I would be left in a heap by my horse, I am sure. She doesn't mind a gunshot from a ways off, but from her back? I am not willing to try that out ATM!

Where I live, I have elk and deer on my property daily. Hunters are all around us , and as someone else said, the hunting seasons here are intermittent from August to December. I ride past hunters all the time and usually the only way I know is from my horse telling me with her eyes. They have always been polite and quiet, which I appreciate. I just wear lots of orange and hope for the best.

I do worry about cougar and bear here, and I just carry wasp spray. It shoots pretty far, doesn't make a lot of noise, isn't likely to kill me if I am careless, and is cheap to boot. We have A LOT of cougar and bear. 

Dogs are not a problem. I have 2 of my own with me when I ride and, if I encounter one that is not behaving around my horse, I ride after them. They run off pretty quick. Never had a dog that was willing to stand up to my horse. 

I appreciate hunters and what they contribute to our state's public lands. I have more problems with hikers and mountain bikers. Around here, the bikers are trail possessive and get mad at things like horse crap on the trails. I just don't understand that. If you are out to "enjoy nature" on your mountain bike, but you don't like horses on the trail or horse crap on the trail, how can you say you enjoy nature? Me and my horses are respectful to hikers and bikers. Even though the law and signs clearly show that horses are to be yielded TO by all others, I always yield to others first. Usually, we are more aware of our surroundings so we see others first, and if we are able to move off, we do as a courtesy.


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## jimmyp (Sep 5, 2013)

I don't know about bobcat but they tell me mountain lion is good eats, and a young **** trimmed of most of its fat and either BBQd or cooked like a roast isn't bad.

As far as some of the other comments here that I won't address individually. A few of y'all would be best not to judge others for their hobbies and past times that ultimately pay the bills so you have somewhere to ride without having to own land.


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

jimmyp said:


> A few of y'all would be best not to judge others for their hobbies and past times that ultimately pay the bills so you have somewhere to ride without having to own land.


Far as I can see, I am paying the bills for public lands: the USFS gets $5-6 billion per year from tax dollars. the BLM and NPS about another billion each, and I pay my share of those taxes. As for hunting license fees and such, in this state (Nevada) at least, they seem to get spent on things that benefit hunters, sometimes at the expense of the general public or ecosystem health.


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## STT GUY (Apr 23, 2014)

Foxtail Ranch said:


> I have a gun and you don't need a CWP to carry it openly while you ride here in Oregon. But I do not take the time to train my horse to tolerate it. If I shot my pistol from horseback, I would be left in a heap by my horse, I am sure. She doesn't mind a gunshot from a ways off, but from her back? I am not willing to try that out ATM!
> 
> Where I live, I have elk and deer on my property daily. Hunters are all around us , and as someone else said, the hunting seasons here are intermittent from August to December. I ride past hunters all the time and usually the only way I know is from my horse telling me with her eyes. They have always been polite and quiet, which I appreciate. I just wear lots of orange and hope for the best.
> 
> ...


Mountain bikers don't enjoy riding through piles of shat anymore than you would enjoy walking through it. It's life on multi-use trails though and not a lot one can do about it....horses poop.

Regarding why mountainbikes at times get down on equestrians...

Well a single horse on a wet trail can basically ruin the tread for months or even years here in the SW Utah area and horse hooves and cow hooves pummel trails into dust which the washes away. The fact is horses are much more destructive to the trails over which they travel than hikers or bikers. We cant change that, but we can mitigate it by closing certain trails to specific user groups when conditions deem appropriate 

Mountainbikers typically build most of the trail around here while the back country horseman do nothing in the way of trail maintenance or new trail construction. In eight years the mountainbike community has built well in excess 100 miles of new trail....horsemen...none. They did lobby the BLM to build them a new 8 mile horse-only trail (funded by recreation permits and fees from largely other user groups) and then did nothing but ***** and complain about it. In the biking community we actively design, build and maintain our trails...guess what happens when that happens? We get trails we like to ride. Funny how that works. 

My wife and I ride horses and mountainbikes pretty much equally. We are founding members of our local mountainbike advocacy group and we've made a lot happen. We've reached out to the equestrian community to help us do trail maintenance projects many times but it's a rather futile effort. By and large the horse community is uninterested in assisting with any form of trail maintenance, they know the biking community will do it any way. The only equestrians who help are like us..they ride wheels and hooves, of which there are many in our area.

Regarding yielding on multi-user trails. We seem to have this down pretty well locally. The key is communication. We've invested a lot of effort into desensitizing our horses to other trail users so we can safely share these trails with other user groups. Let's face it, bikes and trail runners will sooner or later spook you and your horse, it happens. Don't want that to happen or can't handle such an encounter safely then maybe the responsible thing to do is stay away from multi-use trails. 

In closing, we're lucky because we have huge swaths of public lands where we live so different user groups can enjoy their respective hobbies.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gunslinger (Sep 17, 2011)

There's a lot of truth in the above and clearly the mountain bikers are better organized than the horse people are.....at least, around here....

As far as horses being harder on trails.......I've seen some studies that indicate other wise......

Limiting access to public land, IMO, is bad......as the next group to be limited.....might be you......

Include.....not exclude....


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

STT GUY said:


> Well a single horse on a wet trail can basically ruin the tread for months or even years here in the SW Utah area and horse hooves and cow hooves pummel trails into dust which the washes away. The fact is horses are much more destructive to the trails over which they travel than hikers or bikers.


That is just plain wrong, at least hereabouts (northern Nevada/northeastern California). I've never spent much time in SE Utah, so I can't say for sure about there, but here light to moderate horse use (which is all there is) doesn't affect trails at all. Moderate to heavy bike use tears up the downhill sections pretty quickly, because of the subset of bikers who ride down at breakneck speed, and lock their wheels when they need to slow down, converting the trail to dust which washes away.

PS: And I think I'm fairly unbiased, as I hike, mountain bike, and ride in about equal measure.


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## STT GUY (Apr 23, 2014)

jamesqf said:


> That is just plain wrong, at least hereabouts (northern Nevada/northeastern California). I've never spent much time in SE Utah, so I can't say for sure about there, but here light to moderate horse use (which is all there is) doesn't affect trails at all. Moderate to heavy bike use tears up the downhill sections pretty quickly, because of the subset of bikers who ride down at breakneck speed, and lock their wheels when they need to slow down, converting the trail to dust which washes away.
> 
> PS: And I think I'm fairly unbiased, as I hike, mountain bike, and ride in about equal measure.


I'm not incorrect and neither are you. Geography and specifically soil composition has a lot, make that everything to do with suitability for users. Here in southwest utah our soils are sedimentary and once saturated stay tacky for extended periods. A single horse, let alone a bunch can destroy a trail. Look at Cassidy and Lossee in Red Canyon, an early season group ride in 2012 caused damage that is still severe. It will take a major rehab to bring the trail back to any form of suitability for bikes again. Look at Thunder Mountain trail, commercial horse use has caused erosion so severe that the depth of "vee" of the tread is 30 inches or more in places. Zion had to spend over sixty thousand dollars rehabbing the two commercial outfitter trails because they have become so deep riders can't keep their feet in stirrups anymore. 

Downhill bikes can be very hard on trails. We have a saying "don't be a skidiot". User education is a constant endeavor. We support closure of trails when conditions will cause damage. It's worked well in the SLC area.


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## gunslinger (Sep 17, 2011)

Personally, IMO, the earth is ours to use. Every mine that's ever been dug, across the whole world, can't equal the grand canyon.

Horse hooves, nor mountain bikes, nor ATV's for that matter, can't hurt the land more than strip mining or clear cutting. 

We've had some tornado's go through the forest around here.....and they do more damage in 2 minutes than a horse could do in a thousand years.

I'm all for preserving sensitive areas, but I think many of the environmental policies go way to far and are not reasonable IMO. It's more about someone feeling good that sound policy.


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## whisperbaby22 (Jan 25, 2013)

It's all about communication. When I was young I was lucky, I was able to ride on private land. I don't like sharing the trail with idiots who toss empty glass whiskey bottles on the trail. Or seeing dirty diapers. Since I ride in a sandy river bottom, I don't have to put up with bikes or off road vehicles, it's to tough out there for them. If they somehow get down there, they get out quick and don't come back. So I am lucky, and I know it. But I try my best to get along with other people enjoying the trails. I'm to old now to go out on clean up crews, but I did that for years. 

Getting along is best for all of us.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

Out near me, they trespass on private land, and its the dirt bikers and 4 wheelers OHV's
they tear up the roads, do not care if the spook your horse, they think it is funny.
I would wasp spray them, but then they would probably sue me. 
In the Mtns the only problem I had was on a steep trail and backpackers left trash, toilet paper on the side of trails , Nice to have to pick that out of your horses hooves. Some of them would not step to the side to let us pass. And as far as horse poop, well its not like human or dog poop. Pretty much washes off very easily with water or wiping your feet on some vegetation.


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## whisperbaby22 (Jan 25, 2013)

OK, trespassing on private land is a different thing, and if they are lawless, they will be creeps, that just follows.


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## Foxtail Ranch (Mar 10, 2012)

SST Guy and jamesqf, I think the problem here is one of demographics. Most of the equestrians are retirees and not able to help much with trail building. My friend Janice tries though. She brought cookies to the trail building site, but the builders were too worried she was going to ride on the raw trail. new trail needs time to set, and she knows that,but they were unhinged by her presence. I wonder if some of the friction is ageism or not understanding what these folks are capable of doing. 

I am of the age (50's) where I want to help! We built trails on our property and think it is a great activity for us and our pets...packing equipment, dealing with chainsaws, trees falling,...its a bomb proofing clinic, free of charge and benefitting many!!!

But the two groups here are not linked. I hope to change that.

As for horse poop, unless it is steaming fresh, it is so benign. should I really stop, dismount and kick the pile off the trail when it will be dirt in two days? Especially when it was dropped at the trot/canter and is spread out across 50 yards? 

The area I live in is pretty much Pacific rain forest. This time of year, the only people out on these trails are hunters and horses. Anyone or thing weighing more than 15 pounds will leave a mark on this land. it's wet and gooey here. I think we all have a responsibility to help out. 

Hunters are the easiest for me to get along with so far. ikers are nice but don't know how to deal with horses. Bikers are nice but oblivious of their surroundings. OHV riders are self absorbed and annoyed with the presence of others. Hunters see us, wave a hand and continue about their business. I love them!


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

Foxtail Ranch said:


> SST Guy and jamesqf, I think the problem here is one of demographics. Most of the equestrians are retirees and not able to help much with trail building.


That too probably varies by region. Hereabouts there are a number of trails originally build by hikers & riders (including a couple since taken over by the 'skidiots' - love the term!), few if any built by mountain bikers, though I do know of one under construction. 

Though where we do most of our riding, the 'trails' are old logging roads, most of which see occasional (like we might encounter one vehicle or group in a month) auto or ORV traffic, so I don't really encounter horse-bike conflicts. Bike-hiker, yes: plenty of times I've had to jump out of the way of the downhill racers.


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## Foxtail Ranch (Mar 10, 2012)

I like the term "skidiots" too!


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## STT GUY (Apr 23, 2014)

stevenson said:


> Out near me, they trespass on private land, and its the dirt bikers and 4 wheelers OHV's
> they tear up the roads, do not care if the spook your horse, they think it is funny.
> I would wasp spray them, but then they would probably sue me.
> In the Mtns the only problem I had was on a steep trail and backpackers left trash, toilet paper on the side of trails , Nice to have to pick that out of your horses hooves. Some of them would not step to the side to let us pass. And as far as horse poop, well its not like human or dog poop. Pretty much washes off very easily with water or wiping your feet on some vegetation.


Kalifornia has progressively reduced the amount of lands available to the public by such huge amounts that user conflicts are guaranteed. 

Leave the state to buy or PM and I'll ship it to you, bear spray. It wont kill someone but it will make them wish they were dead. 

Regarding horse poop, when we ride our mountain bikes on trails which we share with equestrians and I see a horse trailer at the trailhead...I always lead :shock:. Horse poop in our dry and hot climate goes away nearly immediately.


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## STT GUY (Apr 23, 2014)

Foxtail Ranch said:


> SST Guy and jamesqf, I think the problem here is one of demographics. Most of the equestrians are retirees and not able to help much with trail building. My friend Janice tries though. She brought cookies to the trail building site, but the builders were too worried she was going to ride on the raw trail. new trail needs time to set, and she knows that,but they were unhinged by her presence. I wonder if some of the friction is ageism or not understanding what these folks are capable of doing.
> 
> I am of the age (50's) where I want to help! We built trails on our property and think it is a great activity for us and our pets...packing equipment, dealing with chainsaws, trees falling,...its a bomb proofing clinic, free of charge and benefitting many!!!
> 
> ...


 I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that riding wet trails is always bad. Your soils in the pacific northwest are different and if you didn't ride when its wet or damp...you'd not get to ride much!!

Regarding the difference between equestrians and mountain bikers..... This is going to place a burr under some saddles but I call it like I see it. Mountain bikers are more fit than the majority of horse riders and ATV riders. Its the nature of a human-powered hobby. I also find that mountain bikers are more willing to give of their free time to promote and sustain their hobby.

My wife and I retired very young (47) and invest our time in a couple of different hobbies (mountain biking, horseback riding and road biking) and volunteering in different ways. I find the equestrian community much harder to motivate. It's like that Elvis song..."a little less talk and a little more action" is the mantra and its frustrating. We have been successful reaching out to smaller groups of equestrians to engage them and solicit help with trail rehab. After what is typically an overwhelmingly positive experience, they go and tell their friends how much fun we are and vice-versa and we are gradually spanning the divide between the groups.


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

STT GUY said:


> Kalifornia has progressively reduced the amount of lands available to the public by such huge amounts that user conflicts are guaranteed.


Huh? Unless you mean the populated parts that have gotten built on, of course, which is sad but understandable. Otherwise... Well, I live in northern Nevada, but do almost all of my riding in California. (And a good bit of hiking, biking, cross-country skiing &c.) I've posted a few pictures here: do any of them look like there's much potential for user conflict? It's rare for us to even see other people on the trails. So I just can't see where you get the idea that huge amounts are being made unavailable to the public.


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## STT GUY (Apr 23, 2014)

jamesqf said:


> Huh? Unless you mean the populated parts that have gotten built on, of course, which is sad but understandable. Otherwise... Well, I live in northern Nevada, but do almost all of my riding in California. (And a good bit of hiking, biking, cross-country skiing &c.) I've posted a few pictures here: do any of them look like there's much potential for user conflict? It's rare for us to even see other people on the trails. So I just can't see where you get the idea that huge amounts are being made unavailable to the public.


Its not an idea...its a fact. I grew up there....SoCal has lost tons of lands available to motorized and mountainbiking, It's many tens of thousands of acres in So Cal alone....maybe hundreds of thousands.

Thousands of acres around the Bay Area have been closed to all but hiking. Hell, Mt Tam where mountainbiking was invented is closed to bikes due to the liberal eco-nazi's


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## gunslinger (Sep 17, 2011)

STT GUY said:


> Its not an idea...its a fact. I grew up there....SoCal has lost tons of lands available to motorized and mountainbiking, It's many tens of thousands of acres in So Cal alone....maybe hundreds of thousands.
> 
> Thousands of acres around the Bay Area have been closed to all but hiking. Hell, Mt Tam where mountainbiking was invented is closed to bikes due to the liberal eco-nazi's


That appears to the this agenda.....and limiting access comes a lot of different ways.....

There is a proposal by the Tennessee Wildlife Resources Agency to charge user fees to both mountain bikers and horsemen as well. It appears hunting license sales are down...surprise surprise, Tennessee has the highest hunting license fee in the country....and the only open most WMA's up a few days a year.....

So, what do the want to do? Raise the price of hunting licenses and add additional user fees.....

Any time a fee is implemented it serves to limit access...


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

STT GUY said:


> Its not an idea...its a fact. I grew up there....SoCal has lost tons of lands available to motorized and mountainbiking...


But you claimed that the land was closed to the public, period, which it isn't. We can still go hike there (or ride horses, often enough), without seeing the land torn up by the motorheads who delight in destruction. 

Where do you draw the line? Should "the public" be able to do recreational bulldozing on public lands?


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## Foxtail Ranch (Mar 10, 2012)

STT GUY said:


> I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that riding wet trails is always bad. Your soils in the pacific northwest are different and if you didn't ride when its wet or damp...you'd not get to ride much!!
> 
> Regarding the difference between equestrians and mountain bikers..... This is going to place a burr under some saddles but I call it like I see it. Mountain bikers are more fit than the majority of horse riders and ATV riders. Its the nature of a human-powered hobby. I also find that mountain bikers are more willing to give of their free time to promote and sustain their hobby.
> 
> My wife and I retired very young (47) and invest our time in a couple of different hobbies (mountain biking, horseback riding and road biking) and volunteering in different ways. I find the equestrian community much harder to motivate. It's like that Elvis song..."a little less talk and a little more action" is the mantra and its frustrating. We have been successful reaching out to smaller groups of equestrians to engage them and solicit help with trail rehab. After what is typically an overwhelmingly positive experience, they go and tell their friends how much fun we are and vice-versa and we are gradually spanning the divide between the groups.


I agree with you SST, that fitness in the equestrian set is mixed at best. I hope to find more like myself that enjoy sweat and completing a worthwhile project.


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## whisperbaby22 (Jan 25, 2013)

So Cal lands are being closed off because of environmental issues for the most part. When you have so many millions of people jammed into such a beautiful place, lands are going to be closed off. Locals don't want outsiders coming in and ruining what they think the land should look like and how it should be used. People living in the cities pay taxes and want to enjoy the great outdoors. Just part of living in such a congested area.


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## STT GUY (Apr 23, 2014)

jamesqf said:


> But you claimed that the land was closed to the public, period, which it isn't. We can still go hike there (or ride horses, often enough), without seeing the land torn up by the motorheads who delight in destruction.
> 
> Where do you draw the line? Should "the public" be able to do recreational bulldozing on public lands?


No..I said lands are being closed and creating user group conflicts. You assumed I meant completely closed. When less land is available, existing users are squeezed into smaller and smaller spaces and this is more damaging to the land until finally it's closed. 

I support equal and fair access for all user groups.


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## dbhrsmn (Mar 30, 2012)

STT GUY said:


> I'm not incorrect and neither are you. Geography and specifically soil composition has a lot, make that everything to do with suitability for users. Here in southwest utah our soils are sedimentary and once saturated stay tacky for extended periods. A single horse, let alone a bunch can destroy a trail. Look at Cassidy and Lossee in Red Canyon, an early season group ride in 2012 caused damage that is still severe. It will take a major rehab to bring the trail back to any form of suitability for bikes again. Look at Thunder Mountain trail, commercial horse use has caused erosion so severe that the depth of "vee" of the tread is 30 inches or more in places. Zion had to spend over sixty thousand dollars rehabbing the two commercial outfitter trails because they have become so deep riders can't keep their feet in stirrups anymore.
> 
> Downhill bikes can be very hard on trails. We have a saying "don't be a skidiot". User education is a constant endeavor. We support closure of trails when conditions will cause damage. It's worked well in the SLC area.


I live in the Red Canyon area, and I ride these trails that you mentioned several times a year and haven't seen the type of damage that you are talking about. There is no where on the thunder mtn. trail that has a 30" 'V'. You do get holes from hoof marks when it is wet, but they disappear fairly quickly because of how much the trails are used. I have seen more damage done to the trailes by herds of elk migrating through than horses. I see bikes on Losee, Casto and Cassidy all the time. Monsoon flash floods have done more damage to these trails than bikes or horses. I won't say rain damages the landscape because it is nature. It would change the landscape if the trails weren't there. This nature is what has caused the beautiful landscape that we love to see here. There are some areas of these trails that don't dry out very quick because of location, shade and soil composition. But nature does make it a nightmare to maintain these trails. I worked on them as a seasonal for the USFS while going to school. 
I haven't had any bad experiences with bicyclists on these trails, but they don't do any trial maintenance here. These trails were developed for horses and hikers. Bicycle use was allowed later, but it is the bikers that do most of the complaining. 
Anyway this thread has really departed from what the OP posted about.


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## STT GUY (Apr 23, 2014)

dbhrsmn said:


> I live in the Red Canyon area, and I ride these trails that you mentioned several times a year and haven't seen the type of damage that you are talking about. There is no where on the thunder mtn. trail that has a 30" 'V'. You do get holes from hoof marks when it is wet, but they disappear fairly quickly because of how much the trails are used. I have seen more damage done to the trailes by herds of elk migrating through than horses. I see bikes on Losee, Casto and Cassidy all the time. Monsoon flash floods have done more damage to these trails than bikes or horses. I won't say rain damages the landscape because it is nature. It would change the landscape if the trails weren't there. This nature is what has caused the beautiful landscape that we love to see here. There are some areas of these trails that don't dry out very quick because of location, shade and soil composition. But nature does make it a nightmare to maintain these trails. I worked on them as a seasonal for the USFS while going to school.
> I haven't had any bad experiences with bicyclists on these trails, but they don't do any trial maintenance here. These trails were developed for horses and hikers. Bicycle use was allowed later, but it is the bikers that do most of the complaining.
> Anyway this thread has really departed from what the OP posted about.


The southern switchbacks (the top set) as well as several other areas have very deep vees, so deep that an alternate line was needed, easily 30 inches deep._._

Since you frequent the area then you must have noticed how two years ago T-mountain got really nice again. Volunteers from the biking community (about 20 of us) and an ACE/USFS trail crew put in a couple of hundred hours of rehab work...I know as I was one of them.

Only negative experiencehave had is with Canyon Trail Rides when they wanted me and my group to pull over on the dirt ROAD from 12 to Coyote Hollow and remove our helmets and backpacks because we could spook the horses of a huge (40+ horse) group. It was silly and I think they were just toast from wrangling such a huge group. 

I ride that area so often horse and bike, that I can time a bike ride perfectly to pass the horses when they are at the lunch spot where the doorless port-john is so it's no worries for me and anyone with me. Its cool because with bikes we ride it South to North and horses, North to South most times, it's like two different trails. 

Cassidy did indeed get beat up by the floods. It's pretty sketchy is a couple of spots.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

STTGUY...lol that would really get me sued ! California's public lands are shrinking, and then they fools vote Brown back as Gov.. Cannot afford to move .


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

STT GUY said:


> I support equal and fair access for all user groups.


Define 'fair' and 'equal', though  Is it 'equal' when one sort of use is obviously causing thousands of times as much damage as other uses? Is it 'fair' when one sort of users make it difficult or impossible for other users to enjoy the same area? 

Apropos of which, why is it that few if any of those who'd like to do motorized recreation on supposedly shared lands can even be bothered to put working mufflers or emissions controls on their vehicles? Sure doesn't seem 'fair' to me, to have to deal with their roaring and exhaust fumes, when the most they get from me are hoofbeats and an occasional pile of organic fertilizer.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

People go in wilderness areas, leave trash , garbage, tramp through areas designated for birds etc. You can see this along the Kern River , They go in the tortoise areas and drive over them in the Lancaster and Ridgecrest areas, They kill the Joshua trees and other living relics.
When i rode in the mtns, we packed in , we packed out. Trash was not burned, it was bagged and put in the back of the trucks. We left the area looked like we were not there.


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## QOS (Dec 8, 2008)

Gunslinger - I didn't realize you were a beagler!!! Woo hooo. My dad raised field trial beagles when I was a kid - I used to take them out to run and ran a pack for a friend of his.  Took one to her first field trial and she took NBQ (think that is what it was called) and later became a champion. I had a cutie out of Watson's Bobby D. I love beagles!!!


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Very different in the UK to that side of the pond.

We have a network of what it know as Bridle Paths and Foot Paths , all over the country. These give riders and walkers the rights of way to cross land regardless of who it is owned by. 

We do not have 'open' hunting season where anyone with a gun and license can go and shoot anywhere they like. 

Hunting with dogs is banned here. So anyone with more than two dogs that chase after more or less anything, is open to court action. Stupid law that is very difficult to enforce. 

People have to learn to show respect for the hunted animals and the land and to appreciate both. There is room for everyone! 

I am against ATVs and 4 x 4s just being driven for the sake of being able to go over rough terrain. They do a lot of damage.

As for hounds going after horses, it is very unlikely. Beagles, that are followed on foot, exercise quite happily with horses. 
Foxhounds are trained to only hunt foxes. They are well use to horses. 

In all my years of horses and hounds, I have only ever once known Foxhounds go after a horse. It was at a Pont Club Horse Trials which were being held just above the Hunt Kennels.

The girl being chased was on our team and a very nervous rider cross country. She had just started when young hounds escaped from their pen, saw the horse and gave chase. 
They were hard behind the horse giving full tongue. The announcer was telling her to pull up and stand still but she never heard it. 
Two of the Hunt Staff come up roding two hunters bareback and halters and gave chase. 
Girl went clear with no hesitation of any fence! Hounds never touched the horse and once she stopped they stopped too.

Best CC she ever rode! 

I do agree that when hunting with hounds it is not the kill, it is watching the hounds work.


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## STT GUY (Apr 23, 2014)

stevenson said:


> STTGUY...lol that would really get me sued ! California's public lands are shrinking, and then they fools vote Brown back as Gov.. Cannot afford to move .


Ya...I was there for Moonbeam Part I....and that was bad enough.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

This is a bit off topic with the heart of the thread, but more in line with how the conversation has turned.... I think that if it's public land, and cleared for use by both (riders an bikers) then no one has a right to complain. If they'd like things a particular way, they can purchase their own land and groom it for their purposes.


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## gunslinger (Sep 17, 2011)

QOS said:


> Gunslinger - I didn't realize you were a beagler!!! Woo hooo. My dad raised field trial beagles when I was a kid - I used to take them out to run and ran a pack for a friend of his.  Took one to her first field trial and she took NBQ (think that is what it was called) and later became a champion. I had a cutie out of Watson's Bobby D. I love beagles!!!


I raised, hunted and field trialed over 25 years......my last beagle died in 2014 so I'm out of the beagle business....which is okay, because now instead of running dogs......I'm riding trails....

I guess everything in life changes at some point in time.....actually, I started with beagles so my step son and I would have something to do together...so we rabbit hunted most weekends during the season and field trialed off season.....even after he moved out of state, when he came home he always wanted to go rabbit hunting....

When he died I guess I just lost interest......just wasn't the same.....which is why I have horses......DW struggled for years.....got the horses for her.....yet I think I enjoy them more than she does....


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## QOS (Dec 8, 2008)

Gunslinger - I am sure y'all had many happy hours chasing Beagles. So very sorry to hear he passed away. Hugs for you and Mrs. Gunslinger.

Beagles are terrific little dogs - I have NEVER seen a mean Beagle. If they didn't have such a strong instinct to run after rabbits, it would my dog of choice to go riding with me. They are beautiful, sweet and just I don't think you can tire them out!


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## BigNickMontana (Aug 5, 2013)

Hunting dogs, I wouldn't be so worried about, they are after prey, horses don't make very good prey for a 50-60 lb dog. 

On the other hand what I would worry about more is your local pet dog that has got out when you are riding, I have seen more than once a dog come running out of a yard to go after a rider on a horse. 

I have also seen a horse decided it had had enough of a dog and run it off.


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## STT GUY (Apr 23, 2014)

Zexious said:


> This is a bit off topic with the heart of the thread, but more in line with how the conversation has turned.... I think that if it's public land, and cleared for use by both (riders an bikers) then no one has a right to complain. If they'd like things a particular way, they can purchase their own land and groom it for their purposes.


Unfortunately, there are those on both sides who love to screw with the others. We have a few militant equestrians who used to love to ride our sweet smooth singletrack when it was wet or muddy. Never rode it any other time, ever. Then there are the bikers who mess with equestrians for the sake of being mean. There are a plethora of ways to spook horses as we all know...for instance...lag behind on a trail and then come hauling butt up behind the horse/rider....repeat multiple times. Buttheads will be buttheads, it doesn't matter what they ride. 

Seems the offending muddy trail riding horse riders had their valve cores removed from all four tires on their trucks and placed in a small zip bag and put under their windshield wipers with a note. Seems waiting for AAA or a heckuva workout with a tire pump apparently gave them enough time to think about being malicious and the actions have sense stopped. 

In the SLC area, certain sensitive trails are closed when muddy and some trails which are very popular with bikers and equestrians have gone to an even/odd rotation to manage the user load and other trails exclude horses or bikes. Where trails are in or close to large urban interfaces this works.

We've been pretty fortunate down here because when we design trail we make it favorable to a certain group and then the targeted users gravitate towards it. On multi use trails we place horse lines and bike lines around certain obstacles. Example....bikes go up on the technical slickrock or more rocky line and horses stay low in a sand wash or higher or lower on softer dirt area.


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## Liligirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Gesh I'm so glad I do not have to ride through grounds that are used for hunting. 

We had some land sold to weekenders that is on one of my riding routes from home. Sometimes I hear a gun being shot down there. I either turn back and go home or ride along the 2nd road that I can. The idea just creeps me out.


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## STT GUY (Apr 23, 2014)

Liligirl said:


> Gesh I'm so glad I do not have to ride through grounds that are used for hunting.
> 
> We had some land sold to weekenders that is on one of my riding routes from home. Sometimes I hear a gun being shot down there. I either turn back and go home or ride along the 2nd road that I can. The idea just creeps me out.


Could it possibly be target shooting? That happens from time to time around here when we are on BLM land. It's never been a problem, the target shooters hold up a bit for us to go by and we say thanks, they say you're welcome and that's all there is to it. We actually used our first encounter like this to help desensitize our horses. A dad and his son were shooting 22LRs which are not very loud and we hung out while they did for a bit.


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## Liligirl (Jun 9, 2012)

It probably is just target shotting. But I do not know what or where they are shotting. It freaks me out the idea of going do to find out.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I only read page one but my personal opinion is ... stay out of the woods during hunting season. I know it sucks but that's for your safety. I have 80 acres and don't venture out into the woods during hunting season. It only takes one moron that shoots before making visual contact. I don't know why they approved Sundays. just plain stupid. hmph.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Compared to what a lot of you deal with......I am SO BLESSED. Because I can ride out on the national forest and most of the time I never see a soul. I can stick to trails (dirt roads mainly) or I can cut cross country, it doesn't matter. I might have to go through some gates because they sometimes run cattle out there and the forest is fenced into sections. But basically I hardly see anyone unless it's hunting season.

No bikers, maybe a hiker once a year. Sometimes ATVs (there is an official ATV trail out there), but I can simply get off the trail to avoid them.

I remember living in Phoenix and having to share trails with bikers. Some of them weren't friendly. But where I live now, I can pretty much ride like I'm free and don't have trail conflicts. I don't even have to stick to a trail. It's wonderful. I don't know why more people don't use our national forest in our little area, but I really love having it to myself. 

There ARE some official trails, and if I rode those more often I'm sure I would find more hikers and bikers. But I have to trailer out to get to those and I can pretty much ride forever about a mile from our house, so that's what I normally do.

So I am truly blessed to live surrounded by national forest, so much so that there really aren't conflicts. You just have to be careful during hunting season. Yeah, I guess my biggest worry is hunting season.


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