# Dressage prospect



## arrowattack09 (Jul 10, 2012)

https://youtu.be/pAnfloIQPtg

Could she possibly produce a decent dressage foal? She is no longer sound, BTW. 9 years old, and a suspensory injury.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

She is a pretty little mare, but I would stick with Morgan....as far as critique....She is quite shallow and straight in the shoulder, and narrow chested.


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## arrowattack09 (Jul 10, 2012)

I thought that her shoulder looked upright. She seems to move ok though, doesn't she?


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

agree with sticking with Morgan or Evan Arabian for a morarb (so triple registered). even if you plan on keeping the foal forever life happens and having a viable marketable foal is very important. you may have a horse bred for one thing that dose not excel at it (seen that happen alot).


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Newer style Morgan, that wouldn't even have been my first thought honestly.

I wouldn't cross to a WB.

What are you planning on doing? ANY sound horse can do dressage. Heck a nice solid Morgan is a PHENOMENAL dressage horse (they do have a WB style)

I honestly wouldn't be breeding her at all, she's "ok" not the "wow" I'd want for a breeding horse. If you do breed do you even know that she's breeding sound? Retired due to a tendon injury doesn't sound breeding sound to me. (Sorry about that  she looks like fun)

Even the best stallion is always a guess, and a lot have qualifications for mares.

Morgan Dressage Association ? Dedicated to Promoting and Supporting Morgan Horses in Dressage.

Look at Morgan sport horses and be picky about finding one that will cross well with her, it may be tricky.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

delete, sorry


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## Wallaby (Jul 13, 2008)

I agree with the others - she's "ok" but not "wow, let's breed her!" quality, for me. Especially given that she had a suspensory issue that rendered her unrideable/unsound - what if that issue crops up again when she's heavily pregnant? What if she has genetically weak tendons that she passes on to a foal? What happens if you end up with two unsound, unrideable, young horses?

I agree that, if you're gonna do it, using a Morgan stallion would be my top choice as well.



On the other hand, I just recently found out is that half-Lipizzans can be registered. And I think she might cross pretty nicely with a Lipizzan - the build is similar, but Lipizzans are a little heavier, hopefully giving her that width she's lacking. Lips tend to be leggy, and she is leggy...which could be a bad, or good, thing in a foal.
BUT.
Lipizzans do have a _very_ particular attitude that is wonderful if you like it, but awful if you don't. They're kind of like cats, or Border Collies mixed with cats - they think a lot, they either like you or they don't, and they can think circles around you in a second if you aren't careful! They have talent, but you have to be careful how you get to that talent because they are not afraid to say "heck NO."
And they tend to mature quite late. My gelding is Arab/Lipizzan and he's justttt starting to act mentally mature at THIRTEEN years old. haha

When we found out that my gelding is half-Lip, the owner of his next-door neighbor said "OH! That explains his personality then!" :rofl: 
But it really does. He is AMAZING at ignoring people he doesn't have time for. :lol: He's a major introvert, very talented and fun, but he's more like a mare than a gelding - everything has to seem like his idea, or he says "excuse me, NO."


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

"What if she has genetically weak tendons that she passes on to a foal?"

Another good point.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

If what you are after is a dressage prospect, why don't you just go find one that is ready to start, or finish? Then you can start dressage training now instead of five or six years from now, best case scenario (worst case would be you put in all those years and her offspring isn't a good dressage prospect anyway). What you have now is a cute little horse, unsound, not very typey for her breed, with some clear conformational drawbacks, and no breeding history. This is not a good way to start out.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

She looks like a nice little mare and rides nicely too.
If the unsoundness was caused by an real accident and not a genetic weakness then it wouldn't worry me
I personally wouldn't breed from her because she's nice but not amazing, you don't mention any proven competition history
If I was going to breed from her at all to get a dressage prospect I'd be looking at using a dressage sport pony stallion or a Welsh section C stallion to breed a dressage sport pony rather than try to get bigger horse out of her because I'm not sure that you'd succeed.


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## arrowattack09 (Jul 10, 2012)

Her suspensory injury was caused by a fluke accident. I'm not personally concerned about her passing that specific genetic weakness to a foal. 

You may be very right- a warmblood may be a poor stallion choice. I have since put much more thought into a stallion, and am instead considering a fresian. My ultimate goal is to produce a nice moving and conformationally correct foal. I intend to make this horse my next dressage mount, but if it doesn't work out due to the quality of horse produced, I would be ok with keeping it as a pleasure horse. I am not a backyard breeder, and really have no intentions of breeding again. I wanted to try it once with a nice Morgan, and see what I could create with a quality stallion. 

I quite like this mare aside from her shoulder. And she is 15.2, so taller for a Morgan, which I will need because of my height. The opportunity arose, and I considered it. I would like to be talked out of breeding her if she really is not a quality mare. Sure, she's not a $20,000 mare, but I think she seems good enough quality to breed. But anyway, I don't want you to think that I think that I'm right and you're wrong.  I would like to hear specific conformational faults on the mare, please. That will help me relate to your over all opinion much easier. 

I am willing to put the time into a foal right now, as my current mare was diagnosed with arthritis in her hocks. While she's not crippled right now, she will be someday, and I will need a new mount. My mare will always have a home with me, but I will need a new riding partner. I would like the experience of having a baby once, and watching it grow into a great mount. I definitely could just buy a yearling or two year old when the day comes that my mare is retired, but I would really like to try things from the very beginning. Like I said, I have no intention of doing this more than once. I feel like I'm just young enough, and am at a great place in my life to give it a go. 

I really appreciate you all taking the time to comment. 

Here is a better confo photo.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

If you were going to breed her because you wanted a foal from this mare as a pet, because you love her personality and she's just the sweetest thing, I wouldn't say her conformation is too poor to pass on genetically. That is assuming she doesn't have some genetic disease, sweet itch or other issue.

If you want to breed her looking for a competitive dressage horse, I'd say pass. 
The first thing I look for is really good hooves, because they're the most important thing a horse needs. Her hooves have long toes with low heels, and Morgans, like Arabs are supposed to have hard, somewhat steep and forgiving hooves. Possibly her hooves can be improved with good trimming, but I wouldn't breed until I knew that was the case since I'd want a horse I bred to have a good chance at staying sound.

For dressage, you want the horse to have naturally great movement, especially at the walk and canter. I would only breed a horse with exceptional movement, versus just "making do" with what you have once the horse is on the ground. I would not want such a long back, and would look for a horse that swings through very well naturally, over tracking with the hind legs at the walk. I would want the canter to have natural impulsion, lift and swing as well. The trot is less important because it can be improved much more with exercise and training. I'd personally only breed a horse that made me say "wow!" when I saw her move on the lunge line or in the field.

I'd like to see her stronger in the hind end, especially the loin, especially if she has to make up for a long back. The trick with breeding to a Friesian is you can't guarantee what mix of features you will end up with. The stud could contribute a strong loin and shorter back. Or you could end up with an even weaker loin and longer back if he carries those traits in his line. I'm not sure if you've seen a Friesian with a long back, but it's not pretty.








There are many traits that could make the cross a poor one.








It's a lot easier to get a good cross when you breed "like to like" versus taking one breed and crossing it with something quite different. I've seen draft crosses that were short but kept the large head of the draft half, and other "fuglies." 
Here is a Friesian/QH cross:








And another not so great Friesian cross:


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Gottatrot has words of wisdom. 

This mare even if sound would not be a particularly good dressage prospect herself. Cross breeding a fairly ordinary horse to something of quite different type and expecting to come out ahead is unreasonable. Breeding an excellent dressage type mare to an excellent similar dressage type stallion who is also strong where the mare is less so, will give a reasonable chance of getting a dressage prospect. But only a reasonable chance! Breeding is such a crap shoot you try to get every single thing you can, lined up in your favor before you start. Your proposal doesn't really strike me that way. 

Put another way: do you want to bring another ordinary, faulty, not markedly talented horse into a world already overcrowded with them? Do you want to put a decade of time and effort into a horse which starts out with deficits of conformation it can never overcome? Your odds of doing so, with the plan you've proposed, seem pretty darn high to me.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I wouldn't even think of a Friesian stallion.
What you need to look for is something that's not too different that will compliment her good points but add whatever it is that's missing in her 
TB's can cross well with a smaller pony or horse as long as you select one that's compact and has a neat head but I've seen too many small fine horses with big heads or big feet or bodies too small or short for the length of leg etc to want to risk it. 
I would use a stallion like this to produce a sport pony from her - he's got welsh pony bloodlines, by a lovely little stallion that moves like a dream but if you did get a bigger horse out of it you should still get a something that's got the right proportions and good family tree
Stallions: SF Spirit


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

gottatrot said:


> It's a lot easier to get a good cross when you breed "like to like" versus taking one breed and crossing it with something quite different. I've seen draft crosses that were short but kept the large head of the draft half, and other "fuglies."


This is a good point...many good points in that post, but just picking that as excellent..

Some crosses work well, some just don't, some breeders are great at choosing two animals to cross to improve their odds, and some less so. 

Personally nothing about her screams breed me, and nothing at all what so ever, says cross with a Friesian, just to much of a risk I think. 
Save​


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I think her conformation is "meh" and that's just not good enough to breed imo, but if you really wanted to you could do a lot worse than her. Also very important to me is type, she just does not look like a Morgan. She is super cute I just don't see anything that would make me want to breed.

I don't understand why you went from a WB to a Friesan, that's almost worse. I would breed to a similar type horse or a slightly different type within the same breed.


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## DanteDressageNerd (Mar 12, 2015)

I agree with what has been said. I would not breed this mare, especially not for a sport or dressage prospect.

I dont like her hind end conformation. The line from the top of her hip to the point of her hip, to her stifle, down to her hock is angled for her pelvis to be out behind her, not to sit under her for dressage. You can really see this when she works, especially at trot and canter. I'd also be concerned about whether or not she would stay sound (if she was still sound) and progressed in dressage enough to be asked for true collection. To see what I'm talking about, watch her stifles and hocks as she pushes off. I realize she's not conditioned and green in the video but from what I'm seeing how she pushes off her hind end would concern me for a dressage prospect, especially with lateral or actual collective type work. I don't think she'd stay sound once she was actually asked to sit and carry behind. I also do not like her neck, short and upright or her pasterns (short and upright). She has a lovely walk and she's cute and looks very sweet but if you want a dressage prospect this isn't the horse I'd breed.

If you want the foal experience. I'd buy a weanling or yearling. You can get a pretty decent purpose-bred weanling for under 10k. Breeding IS expensive. The trainer I work(ed) for bred, I've been through that process of foaling to breaking. It's a lot of hard work and can be met with a lot of heartbreak. A friend of mine had a yearling who tried to jump a fence (filly) and the filly ended up having to be put down. She has very safe even footing and good pasture fencing that is always in good condition and her fields are regularly mowed too. Very freak thing but it happens all the time. And it happens after you've already invested however many thousands into getting a foal on the ground. My other trainer also breeds and she owns her stallion (who is VERY nice) but for her breeding (owning both the mare and stallion) and her own farm and looking after her own horses cost 14k just to get the foal to 3 and ready to be broke. In breeding there are no guarantees, the foal could even have a personality you don't like or get along with. Or under saddle isn't willing or want to do the sport you want to do. Or it's a ride you don't get along with.


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## arrowattack09 (Jul 10, 2012)

Thank you for your input, everyone. I very much appreciate it! Very insightful and helpful.


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## jgalejs (Jul 10, 2016)

To generate a more substantial baby I would also would lean towards breeding like to like and using a heavier Lippitt-type Morgan. 

They have substantial bone and a great work ethic (not to mention that lovey Morgan head).


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