# Bay?



## livestoride (Mar 30, 2011)

Sorry the first pic is sideways...I thought I turned it around.


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

Bay is bay. People are just using different descriptions to describe the shade, but its nothing official. Dark bay or mahogany bay is really dark - almost black. Blood bay are deep red through the body. Copper bays have an orangish tint to them and are a bit lighter. 

The one bay that is different is wild bay. When talking about wild bay it indicates a bay with very little black on the legs. Typical bay will have black going to or above the knees while a wild bay will only go part way up the cannon.


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

BTW - here is an article that has some descriptions and pics you might want to look at.

Bay Color Modifier

I forgot to answer your other part of the question - I would consider your horse a standard bay.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Cat is correct: The only bay that is actually different is wild bay. Wild bay is caused be a different form of agouti (the gene that restricts black to "points") than regular bay, so the black on the legs only go up to the pastern, if that. 

The other terms (mahogany, blood, etc) are just referring to the shade, the same as calling a very light buckskin "buttermilk". It's not genetically different than a deep golden buckskin, but they just give them different names.


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## livestoride (Mar 30, 2011)

oh ok! Thanks!


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## inaclick (Jun 6, 2010)

Cat said:


> BTW - here is an article that has some descriptions and pics you might want to look at.
> 
> Bay Color Modifier
> 
> I forgot to answer your other part of the question - I would consider your horse a standard bay.


Great article, but geesh, what a chunky bay they chose to exemplify it


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

OMG!!! He is a big boy lol


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## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

OMG i love that big boy! he's is gorgeous! lol i love them big fat chunky stout horses lol


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## TjWr (May 15, 2011)

inaclick said:


> Great article, but geesh, what a chunky bay they chose to exemplify it


 
WOW!! I'd say so!! What a cutie!


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

That horse is not just big, that horse is obese.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

I think that is part of its breeding AB. If I am remembering correctly and recognize the breed right, it is one that is bred as a meat animal.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Oh, that makes sense then. Kind of like what they have done with the other meat animals.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Alwaysbehind said:


> Oh, that makes sense then. Kind of like what they have done with the other meat animals.



Found the info I was looking for. I knew that I had seen that picture in multiple places lol.

The stallion pictured is an Ardennes. They are bred for draft work and for meat production.


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## morabhobbyhorse (Apr 17, 2011)

Livesto, what a gorgeous baby. I'm partial to bays


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## livestoride (Mar 30, 2011)

Thanks Morab! I tend to gravitate toward bays. 

The article was a great read and helped to clarify things.


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## Silvera (Apr 27, 2010)

It's cool that there are different shades of bays. Yours if beautiful. Here is my guy, he's a dark bay (almost black)

The first two pics are just to show his brown, and the last one is to show him in full.


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## morabhobbyhorse (Apr 17, 2011)

*Sienna is colored like yours Livesto*

And gets all dappley in the summer and reddish, hence her name I guess. She came to me with the name.


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## Equilove (Feb 21, 2011)

Savanna gets random dark spots on her body, and underneath her mane she is very dark red. But, bay all the same!


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## Equilove (Feb 21, 2011)

Also, bay is one of my favorite coat colors. Of all the shades, my favorite is this:










You can't see the entire shade, but the dark bay horses with the brown noses and fawn color by their flanks and elbows is striking to me. I owned a gelding with two back socks as well, and I LOVED it!


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## morabhobbyhorse (Apr 17, 2011)

All bay and all beautiful.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Actually, both those horses posted by Equilove look brown to me


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Equilove said:


> You can't see the entire shade, but the dark bay horses with the brown noses and fawn color by their flanks and elbows is striking to me.


This is pretty much the definition of a brown horse, not bay.  I agree with Chiilaa: the pictures you posted are both brown horses. Savanna is a light brown that is very similar to bay.


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## Equilove (Feb 21, 2011)

Chiilaa said:


> Actually, both those horses posted by Equilove look brown to me


Lol? Sarcasm? Haha they're definitely bay! I think ALL horses qualify as brown in some way. lol


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## CrazyHorseArtist (May 12, 2011)

Chiilaa said:


> Actually, both those horses posted by Equilove look brown to me


I have to disagree the first one posted looks like a mahogany bay, and, the second looks like a Standardbred, that type of dark bay is very common among SBs and TBs.


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## Equilove (Feb 21, 2011)

Poseidon said:


> This is pretty much the definition of a brown horse, not bay.  I agree with Chiilaa: the pictures you posted are both brown horses. Savanna is a light brown that is very similar to bay.


I guarantee you my horse is bay, and so is the second photo I posted. The second horse has black legs, you can see clearly. It's also fuzzy wuzzy from winter, and that often darkens a dark bay even further which will sometimes make the area where the brown of the body meets the black of the legs blend. I owned a thoroughbred gelding that was a dark bay by registration and looked nearly black in the winter time.

This horse here fits my description about brown noses/flanks, but it's a brown horse because it lacks the black stockings and its mane and tail appear to be dark brown as opposed to black.










Some registrations put "Dark bay/Brown" to describe color and often think of dark bay as brown, but not really the other way around. I wouldn't call the above pictured horse a bay, but that's just me. No one would be wrong to call a dark bay horse a brown horse, because it IS brown, but that doesn't mean it ISN'T bay. Savanna is most definitely a bay. Honestly, I think the most literal version of a brown horse is a liver chestnut.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Equilove, even the horse you posted is a brown.

Brown _has_ been found on the genetic level. It is a form of agouti along with bay and wild bay. Brown horses are lighter around the muzzle and in the elbow and stifle area. They can vary in body shade just like any other color. Brown horses can and do have black points like any other horse with the agouti gene.


ETA a registry is the absolute *last* place I would turn to for a color definition. 99.9% of them are so far behind on the color genetics it isn't even funny.


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## CrazyHorseArtist (May 12, 2011)

NdAppy said:


> Equilove, even the horse you posted is a brown.
> 
> Brown _has_ been found on the genetic level. It is a form of agouti along with bay and wild bay. Brown horses are lighter around the muzzle and in the elbow and stifle area. They can vary in body shade just like any other color. Brown horses can and do have black points like any other horse with the agouti gene.
> 
> ...


Bays can have lightened hair at the same points browns do. It's called Pangare, and it can cause a dark bay horse to be mistaken for a brown. The horse she posted is a dark bay, not a brown. The horse is a czech Standardbred named 'Kevin Tornado Zlosyn.'


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

No it is not pangare. 

Pet DNA Services of AZ - Equine Services


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## Equilove (Feb 21, 2011)

NdAppy said:


> Equilove, even the horse you posted is a brown.


Which horse? I've posted 3; two bays and what I would consider an example of a "brown" horse.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

The brown gene has been found and is testable. What used to be attributed to pangare is now known to _not_ be pangare and to be brown.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Equilove said:


> Which horse? I've posted 3; two bays and what I would consider an example of a "brown" horse.


Skimmed and didnt really looked at the rest. I was referring specifcally to the post of your above mine that had the brown horse in it.


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## CrazyHorseArtist (May 12, 2011)

NdAppy said:


> No it is not pangare.
> 
> Pet DNA Services of AZ - Equine Services


I know very well that brown is a genetic color and can be tested for but the horse has black points. But the horse in question was a Bay Standardbred.
I do not understand the forums obsession with brown...


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

*sigh* Brown horses can and do have black points. Brown is a modification of black, _just like bay._ The only "obsession" with brown is the fact that it can now be identified as a true genetic modification and as such can be *correctly* identified when seen. Such as on the brown horses on this thread.


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## Equilove (Feb 21, 2011)

NdAppy said:


> *sigh* Brown horses can and do have black points. Brown is a modification of black, _just like bay._ The only "obsession" with brown is the fact that it can now be identified as a true genetic modification and as such can be *correctly* identified when seen. Such as on the brown horses on this thread.


You're thinking of seal brown. It's not the same as brown. And no, it isn't the same as bay, but it's a lot closer to being bay than brown. So, I'd recognize a seal brown horse as a bay (which I already have) and not think twice about it, because seal brown is not a common term around here.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Sorry but I am not confusing the two. Genetically there is only one brown.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Seal brown is just a fancy name because most people don't want to say "I have a brown horse." 

The debates between bay and brown lately have been about as common as explaining the difference between buckskin and bay dun. They are two similar looking, but genetically different and must be regarded as different colours.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

All THREE horses posted by Equilove would be brown. All three show clear characteristics of brown. 

You ask what is the obsession with brown at the moment. I ask what is the stigma with calling a horse by it's correct colour?


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## Delfina (Feb 12, 2010)

I am really confused, so how do you tell the difference between a brown and a bay?

Here's my boy, I was told he's a Wild Bay but his registration papers just say Bay?

His sire says BRWN QDNA QBT 

So I am guessing that he was Brown and what do the QDNA and QBT mean?

Dam says BAY QDNA


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

This horse is wild bay. Wild bay restricts black the most, keeping it to a bare minimum on the legs. Mane and tail are still usually black.









This horse is 'plain' bay. You can see that the leg black forms nice long stockings, and the points of the horse are also black. 'Plain' bay restricts black less than wild bay, so you have more black expressing on the horse's colour.









This mare is tested to be Brown. This differs from bay as you can see, by the lightness in 'soft' points that are not usually subject to sun fading. One of the characteristics is the 'mealy' around the muzzle, which can darken to the classic 'tan' of a 'seal brown' phenotype. Another is the paleness to the inside of the flank, and in the elbow.

I tried my hardest to find three horses that are of a similar 'bay' shade so you can really see the difference.


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## CrazyHorseArtist (May 12, 2011)

This horse, Cincinnati Kid, is of the same breed, and color of the horse in question. The horse in question is a dark bay with a winter coat making the fading look very extensive when in fact it is not. If the horse were to shed out in his summer coat he'd look like this. As I said this shade of bay is common among Standarbreds, and is in fact bay not brown.

This horse, Ponder, also has the same effect, and is bay.

if the horse in question were to be shed out he would like like the two above horses.
The USTA has both bay and brown in their registry as separate genetic colors.


This horse Striking Sahbra, is a Brown Standardbred.


Here are some foals sporting the two different sades. This one Bay, will get darker after his foal fuzz sheds to look like the top two, and This one a striking brown Brown will look like Sahbra when he ages.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Standardbreds aren't genetically different to other breeds. Those are brown, not bay.

Registry bodies are notorious for being decades behind in terms of the genetics behind horse colour. Using their stick to measure against is not accurate.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

But in fact it _is_ brown. Have all these horses that you have been calling bay been tested to show that they do not carry At? I am highly doubting it. 

Foal coats... I will not give a definitive on bay/brown from a foal coat alone. That whole idea is just asinine. 


All of the adult horses that you have posted are brown. Plain and simple. The fading in the soft areas is not caused by sun fading. It is not physically possible for a horse to sun fade in those areas and not in the "normal" areas for sun fading. Those faded areas are the main, and definitive areas, that a horse carries At.


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## CrazyHorseArtist (May 12, 2011)

Chiilaa said:


> Standardbreds aren't genetically different to other breeds.


Never said they were



NdAppy said:


> The fading in the soft areas is not caused by sun fading. It is not physically possible for a horse to sun fade in those areas and not in the "normal" areas for sun fading.


and i never said it was 'sun fading'


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

I am certain that all the horses in question would test as At. I just don't understand why there is a stigma attached to brown, that allows people to think it's better to believe the horse is a different colour rather than call them the colour they are.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

CrazyHorseArtist said:


> Never said they were


Then why are you insisting that this horse is a STB and that should alter our perception?


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## CrazyHorseArtist (May 12, 2011)

ok you may call then brown if you wish/

but remember a horse has to do more than just test for At. At is recessive to all other alleles on the Agouti Locus. The horse would have to be AtAt or positive At and (a) being Ata in order to be brown.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

*head desk*

They ARE brown. Not because I wish them to be. Because they ARE.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

CrazyHorseArtist said:


> ok you may call then brown if you wish/


This is rather condescending of you to say. 

I am with Chiilaa and NdAppy. Those horses are brown. I'm also not sure what the obsession with Standardbreds is either..


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## Equilove (Feb 21, 2011)

So if none of the horses that have been posted are bay, I would LOVE to see what an ACTUAL bay looks like, since my horse is apparently NOT a bay, and I thought she was photo-child bay.










Please, enlighten us?


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Equilove - http://www.horseforum.com/horse-colors-genetics/bay-87233/page4/#post1045952


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

CrazyHorseArtist said:


> ok you may call then brown if you wish/
> 
> but remember a horse has to do more than just test for At. At is recessive to all other alleles on the Agouti Locus. The horse would have to be AtAt or positive At and (a) being Ata in order to be brown.


No it is not. At is dominant over A. If you have a horse test AtA you will have a brown horse.


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## CrazyHorseArtist (May 12, 2011)

> *Hierarchy of interactions between Agouti alleles:*
> bay A > At > a
> (bay A is dominant over At and 'a'; At is dominant over 'a')
> 
> ...


Pulled from the DNA test site that NDAppy posted. This is also on almost every other horse color or genetic site I've see so far as well. Where did you read that At was dominant? I'm curious to read this..


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