# Sticky  Every rider IS a trainer -- every time you interact with a horse



## MHFoundation Quarters

Cherie, I just want to say :clap: and :thumbsup: 

I've read a lot of your posts and I appreciate seeing common sense horsemanship in your answers. There seems to be a lack of that with a lot of the fad training I've seen come and go over the years. Kudos!


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## Scoutrider

Hear, hear!!! :clap:


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## Endiku

Amazing thread. Great job! :thumbsup: :mrgreen: now to force every single person on this forum to read it. It would do a lot of good! haha


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## kevinshorses

Cherie: I have tried many times to say the very same thing you just did but you said it much better. So many horse owners want some kind of mystical bond with thier horse and think that if they just get that then all the other problems will go away. For some reason down-to-earth, reasonable people lose all sense of reality when they interact with thier horse.


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## smrobs

Well said.


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## equiniphile

10,000% on that one!


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## Toymanator

Cherie, this gets my vote as one of the top posts ever to make an appearance on this forum! I completely agree, every rider is a trainer and every rider has a responsibility to learn what that means. It is only fair to the horse and is unsafe for them as a rider otherwise.


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## Clair

If this were Facebook, I would "like" your post.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ChingazMyBoy

*Excellent Post.*
Riders need to understand that each time they hop on a horse, they teach it something. Good or bad. Our horses need to respect us and be disciplined.

One thing that I see a lot is riders/owners allowing their horses to rub on them because it is "bonding" or "cute". 600-700kg of horse, I'm sorry but this is plain disrespect. Riders need to be continuously aware of their horses behavior. An effective rider can feel a horse and prevent -most- issues before they happen and not allow the horse to have bad/dangerous behavior.


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## AlexS

Fantastic! Every single interaction with a horse is training it - that includes in the field, feeding, haltering - every single thing. Great post!


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## candandy49

I am another who totally agrees with the OP. Horses are not born with bad habits or vices.


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## Sahara

I think this is an excellent post as well. Now you need to follow up with "Tips to recognize when you are in over your head". LOL


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## momo3boys

Wonderful!! People who want to 'bond' with their horse need to understand that you have to earn it, and you earn it by training them!

Great post! Can you post this on craigs list to pop up everytime someone searches 'horse for sale"?


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## Toymanator

I was thinking about this post yesterday while I was riding and had to think that not only is, "every rider a trainer" but also that "every rider is being trained" every time you interact with a horse. I think it is important that people are in a learning and teaching mode when riding horses. But it also takes time and experience to know what you should be learning. Horse trainers are invaluable for the horse, and for the rider. Too often people think that horse trainers are only for horses, when in reality the rider is the one who needs to be trained.


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## roljess

perfectly put! This should come attached to every horse's halter when someone new gets them!


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## toastymoose

This is exactly what im trying to achieve with my pony but i just dont feel like im getting anywhere.. Perhaps you could help me? I just posted the 'spooky naughty pony' thing and i think half of the problem is the fact that his owner just lets him get away with everything.. I've heard from others that when they take him out for a hack most of the time they come back leading him. I feel like what im trying to do is getting him and me nowhere  Take a read and tell me what you think? I dont know whether to just give up and find a different horse


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## iridehorses

I hope all of our young and/or new members read this. It just may help a rider understand what our interaction with a horse can or can't do. I'm going to stick this thread.


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## kiwigirl

Loved your post Cherie! Absolutely agree 100%. I have definitely been guilty of blaming my horse for behaviours which in hindsight have been created by me. As I get older I am learning that when I know better, I do better.


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## Darla719

*Perfect Post*

Thank you for this post. I read it twice and have now decided to print it out and place it on my saddle to be read before each ride. These words need to be memorized and be a part of every rider's thinking before, during, and after each ride. I appreciate every word. Thank you again!


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## sarahver

Well said Cherie and I really like the title. Do we have permission to link to this thread wherever appropriate?!


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## MIEventer

Excellant thread!

I've been trying very hard to get this across to my 2 Little Riding Buddies that I mentor. One 12, one 14 - and whenever they are riding their horses, they don't make a plan. They don't have a game plan to follow, they just ride around free willy nilly, same thing day in, day out, no working on anything particular, no trying to improve their quality of ride - nothing. 

I try to emphasize to them that when they go home from this particular days ride, to sit down with a piece of paper and write down their goals on one side and what they feel they need to fix on the other side. When they do that, to pick 1 thing out of that list they made, to work on the next day.

It hasn't quite sunk in yet. Work in progress, lol. 

I hear from them, while we ride, how they blame their horses for this incident or that incident, etc, etc - and I try my best to correct their train of thought - from them blaming their horses, to having them take a step back and try to see how they played a big role in the drama that incurred. 

I too hope that the young riders read this


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## stephnello

I agree with all that. But for the plan... I have tried many many times. But when I come to my horse, finally, I can only decide on short-terms plan in so far as what we do depends on his spirit at the moment. I know what general idea I have for the day, I know if we are in the arena I want this and that, and if we take a walk this and that. But I mostly "follow" what he seems to need, what I seem to need. Sometimes I come and want to work on good transitions, and he just does them perfectly at once... so I try to come out with another idea, and if I can't think of something I will be able to teach and learn properly, we just go out, he loves that and there the goals are: keeping showing him I'm a deserving leader and efficient protector, keeping helping him manage his fears, and enjoying ourselves together as a team. I also take advantage of his energy on the straight roads to improve leg-yielding and see that it is done even with birds or dogs all around, shoulder-in too we had our first ones while walking on a road... 

All I know for sure is that I want to have a horse that is calm, energetic, willing to answer to all my suggestions, and I want us to be comfortable and improve our relationship each time we see each other, even when it is just to take him to his pasture, or to give him a good grooming and massage. But then, when we work, the moves I ask him to do are not foretold, I prepare things, I ask simple things and then more complicated things, and so on, but there is no real plan... But I do keep a diary/journal in which I write every tiny detail of the hours spent with him, any glance, any impression is written down and I reread it before I go to see my horse, to see what we did last times, and how I can improve us, and keep him interested in me.


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## FSHjumper

I 100% agree and that is constantly on my mind. Now of course some days are a lot simpler in training than others, but I still train. I have a friend who is very much the "I just want to ride, not train" and he now is FORCED to train on the ground every time he comes out because he bought a horse that has a bolting problem. When he first got the gelding (who was owned by timid handlers and riders!) he worked with him and we had the bolting under control as long as we trained on it several days a week. Even if it was simply 5min before a ride, he had a refresher on respect every day. After a couple months of just riding, then most of the winter off, the horse is WORSE than before due to lack of owner wanting to deal with the issues because hed rather just ride a pleasant trail horse. Now his horse bolts in hand and under saddle as well as kicks and bucks AT YOU in the round pen. After many many arguments and months of convincing him to work with his horse he is finally coming out and letting me guide him through the terrible training he was so afraid of. its a work in progress, but atleast hes working now! I do have to constantly point out to him though that he is always training his horse, even when hes just going out to feed him a treat and give him a pat! Most people are able to go out pat and give a carrot and not worry, but with this pushy disrespectful gelding even giving a treat his training simply because he wants to plow into you with his shoulder and push you around. the owner would let him push into him, then hed step aside, and the gelding would keep doing it. The owner couldnt understand for the longest time that things such as that, as small as it may seem, are disrespectful and dominating and that the owner is in fact teaching him that these actions are ok and are, in fact, REWARDED by the person giving in. I truly wish people would get out of this mentality that they want to just ride. If thats the case buy a golf cart, not a horse. Im not saying every horse needs every single second to be training...but in order to get to that respectful and polite easy mount a lot of training needs to happen, and then small corrections are made each ride to keep from bad behaviors developing. If only if only.....  This way of thinking is one of the reasons why I like Clinton Anderson, because he asks nice, then tells, then demands....doesnt nag nag nag until he gets the response or until he just decides hell try something else. Also, when a horse misbehaves he corrects it QUICK and with as much force as necessary. I love that you pointed out that when I horse turns you dont circle them that way to get them back on track, you pull them back the opposite way they just turned. Its a HUGE pet peeve of mine that others do that and I see it constantly. When I point it out Im often told that I am too nit-picky about what the horse is doing and that its not a big deal theyll get back on track one way or another. It truly is those 'small' things such as that that lead to the REALLY big things! Im sure my friends gelding probably starting out just turning away, but now has developed such a quick bolt no one can stop him. When I started training with him he had a saddle put on and the longe line went from the bit to under the girth back to my hand. that way when he bolted and I pulled he got his head yanked straight back to his barrel. He tried it twice and never tried it again until the training for bolting stopped for 5 months and then one day the instinct to bolt came back. yes the method may seem harsh, but this horse bolted if you simply asked him to step forward and more than once he ran through a fence.


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## WalkerLady

Wonderful post! I started riding very late in life and at first all I wanted to do was "go for a nice ride." It took awhile but eventually I understood that my horse, who wasn't terribly well-trained when I got him, was getting more and more out of control - and it was my fault. 

Then I had to think long and hard about whether I was truly willing to put in the time required before I could just "go for a nice ride", because I knew that if I wasn't, I should just give up horses altogether. 

Eventually I traded that horse for one that was extremely well-trained, and now I'm learning how to KEEP her well-trained. And it's a joy, an absolute joy, when my horse acknowledges my leadership.


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## coreyk67

*So what is a new rider to do ?*

Great post! The problem that I am faced with is... What is a new rider to do? I don't possess the skills to know exactly when the horse is "testing" me. I take lessons on a really great horse but when I ride a horse that I have been wanting to purchase that doesn't listen to me , I really don't know how to respond. I feel like I should be taking lessons on a less trained horse to get the feel. I leave my lessons very confident and feel really stupid when I get on a prospect that I take a test ride on and it doesn't do what I ask of it. The owner can get on the horse and it does exactly what he asks it to do.

I'm just very frustrated and I don't even own a horse yet. Am I over thinking this and will it be something I just have to learn on my own?

Thanks


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## iridehorses

Welcome to the forum!

As a brand new rider, I would suggest taking a trainer along with you. A trainer that knows your skills who can assess the horse you are considering, will point you in the right direction. 

I strongly suggest looking for a finished horse that a beginner can ride and learn from. In a rider and horse situation, one of them has to know something and if you are the one learning, you need a horse that knows.


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## WalkerLady

iridehorses said:


> Welcome to the forum!
> 
> As a brand new rider, I would suggest taking a trainer along with you. A trainer that knows your skills who can assess the horse you are considering, will point you in the right direction.
> 
> I strongly suggest looking for a finished horse that a beginner can ride and learn from. In a rider and horse situation, one of them has to know something and if you are the one learning, you need a horse that knows.


As someone who was once a beginner on an unfinished horse, I strongly second this! How long have you been taking lessons? Do you maybe need a little more time to gain confidence before buying a horse? Just a suggestion.


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## Cherie

There are two distinctly different ways of teaching horsemanship. I am afraid that most teachers / trainers teach equitation form -- not the fine art of handling and controlling a horse's mind and actions. 

We have run into many wannabe horsemen and horsewomen that have taken years of useless lessons teaching them how to sit up there and be real pretty with their feet in just the right position, their shoulders back, their chin up and their hands just perfect, holding the reins just perfectly. Then, when they want the horse to go north and he plainly wants to go south, they are absolutely lost as to how to get him to do what they want. They have never learned how to EFFECTIVELY handle those reins; They have not learned when to pull and when to push; They have not learned how to apply the right amount of pressure to the point where the horse needed it and more importantly, they have not learned when to release that pressure. You cannot sit up there and look pretty and 'hope' the horse goes the right direction and the right speed.

I see people all of the time that have never learned (or been taught) how to handle a horse out in the open around horses they do not know. 

A person gains confidence when they know they are in control. Equitation type instructors plainly do not teach control. They do not teach what to do when the 'push-button' horse their student is riding suddenly has a 'come-apart' and the 'buttons' short out. 

I strongly urge people that want to advance their riding skills to find a mentor that can get a lot done on a horse in the 'real' world. You will never gain the confidence to ride outside on unknown trails if you only ride in an arena on a push-button old school horse.


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## aforred

Amen!!! :clap:


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## iridehorses

Cherie said:


> You will never gain the confidence to ride outside on unknown trails if you only ride in an arena on a push-button old school horse.


Althought that is ultimately true, it's still the place to start. You don't learn to swim by being thrown in the ocean. When I learned to scuba dive, it was in the pool at the Y under a controlled environment, not in 70' of water off St Thomas - but that is the reason I learned.

Just find the right instructor for the job you want to do and have the right tools for the job.


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## FSHjumper

great last post Cherie! I know many farms in this area that have your horse tacked up and in the ring when you get there for your lesson and then you ride and leave and they untack for you. Of course its only ring riding as well  I grew up riding at a farm that was mainly ring riding, but once you got to a certain level to where you were safe on a horse, we did lessons out in the field and rode on trails. With the few girls I teach I start them out in a closed arena until theyre comfortable on the horse doing walk/trot and then I start training out in the field. Usually start in the 3 acre field and then randomly ride in that or the 7acre or 12 acre field. Do they have mishaps? yes! but ive realized that MOST of the people ive taught develop a stickey leg and they learn to stay on! One girl has been riding for 5 years and just started riding with me and if the horse so much as trips she topples off. Then I have others that have only ridden for 6months and the horse spooks and launches sideways and they stay put. Nto to say that ones better than the other, just the way of training. The girl who falls off when the horse trips has wonderful form with shoulders back and heal and leg placed properly but doesnt know how to effectively use anything. I may not be the prettiest rider at times, but I stay on and get the job done


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## heartprints62

"I frequently hear people say "But I don't want to learn how to train a horse. I just want to have a pleasant trail ride when I take my horse out.""

This is the definition of the difference between a horse person and a horse owner. 
I wish every person that ever thinks about buying a horse would read this! THANK YOU!


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## morabhobbyhorse

*I need to read this every time I'm going to the barn*

Thank you Cherie. My horse is spoiled and I did it. I know that. Well she came to me an uncontrollable nightmare that I could afford and the bad behaviors she still has are my fault. I happened to have a wonderful mentor and BO that had me doing ground work for a month before she'd ever let me get on Sienna. By then she had the softest eye the previous owners couldn't believe it. I'm on disability and often can't leave the house, and every time I go to the barn, it seems I have a different plan. I have an attention problem and often don't notice the little signs until they are big. I change my goal frequently and don't follow through. I'm slow to give release AND pressure. I work at trying to keep my focus every time I'm with my horse, and always try to end on a good note whether we are doing ground work or riding. Like an OP said about keeping a journal I think that's something that might help me if I could remember to write in it at the end of a barn day. I'm going to get a notebook today before my trip to the barn tomorrow. Thanks so much for this thread. Cheryl


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## Jess Angela

I could'nt agree more! Great post!


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## PaintedFury

I love this post, mostly because I agree with it, but partially because I was just talking about this with my oldest son today. This is something that EVERY horse owner needs to think about when they are around their horses, whether they are riding them or just around them.


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## herdbound

I posted something similliar to this comment ages ago in here and I got crucified. But bravo to you...you laid it out perfectly...I get really agitated by the ignorance some people have thinking that somehow the trainer is responsible for all actions a horse has even when they have left us and gone on...when the truth is the owner or whoever is handling the horse is really 100% responsible for most of the bad behavior you see in horses. Sometimes the bad behavior is a finger print left over from previous owners and passed on, but someone who understands horses should be able to nip most problems all by themselves...but that would be too simple...so they find someone else to pay to take the responsibility off of them. Good post...no GREAT post!


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## Horse Dreamer

As a beginning rider who is paying a trainer to fix some spoiled horse behaviors for the both of us, well said.


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## jessbeck1992

Well said. Had a lot of helpful information. Great Job!!


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## eclaire23

COMMON SENSE!!!!!

Kills me to know there are people out there who think their horse can't be taught by anyone else except a professional. Ugh those people... just... ugh.

Great Post!


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## nworkman82

Love it. As a novice I tell myself this everytime I get in the saddle. In the beginning I was just like you described... A spoiler and far too soft. But after going to training when I thought there was somethig wrong with my horse... I was set straight. The problem was ME!! My horse wasn't confused, she knew how to confuse me! Now we aren't world champions but when I am in the saddle I always tell myself the same thing you stated over and over. I'm in charge. She maybe my bestie but this two legged alpha calls the shots. Amen!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jessskater

Awesome post!


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## ridergirl23

Awesome! I neer reall thoughof it that way until I read a post by courtney king-dye of how, if you let the horse do something wrong 80% of the time then the horse learns that that is he right way. Its not their fault, they dont know any better! Its all on us. Great post!


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## Wheatermay

U sound like my horse/human trainer, lol... so I completely agree with all of this! Im a green rider and my horse is green, but we work at everything together, and sometimes I make mistakes, but I fix them! She actually just did the whole turning back and going back to the gate thing yesterday, and I turned her back (BUT) I only did whichever way was easiest for me! So now, I know that I have to hit the rewind button, and make her turn back the opposite. No circles! I know ay to many people tho that doesnt do this, they expect the horse to do what they want all the time,and dont put the work that needs done into that horse!


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## jannette

i really enjoyed your post...i am a novice rider. i however thought i knew more then i did. (have just last yr got back into riding) my horse who is trained informed me quickly i really need more training..i think admitting that is some "Horse People's" biggest problem, not their horse.


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## dee

Does it count when you are a not-so-great rider that just won't put up with BS from her horse? Dancer never refused an obstacle on the trail (for which I am forever greatful as my riding skills have seriously deteriorated!) 

My heart horse, Sugar (long since gone) was great on the trails as long as she was in the mood. The first time she refused to cross a wooden bridge, it became a battle of wills. Sugar would try to turn for home, and I just kept making her complete her little spin so that she wound up facing the bridge all over again. After about a dozen spins (I think we were both getting dizzy) she decided to cross the bridge. There were several other wooden bridges on the road that day, but she gamely walked on across. She hesitated only slightly at crossing the overpass on busy I-40 - but responded well to a firm nudge (maybe she remembered the first bridge?) She barely twitched an ear when the semis driving under us honked their loud airhorns.

She flat _refused_ to walk through the underpass that goes under I-40. Traffic didn't seem to bother her - I think it was the inky darkness and the echos that worried her. The spinning her back around trick didn't work. After half an hour, I couldn't take another spin. I got down (aka chickened out?) and led her through the underpass. Then turned her around and led her right back through to the same side we started out on. She was not going to get out of carrying me under the highway! I guess she figured out there was indeed light at the end of the tunnel, and no monsters in the tunnel after all, because she didn't balk there again.


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## jannette

lol yes it does dee.....:lol: i think being even just a little more stubborn then your horse is the ticket, every win counts!!!! my friends gelding liked to get 1/2 way across bridge and then jump off...we spent the better part of our day going over, back over, over, back over ect....tell mr. rowdy did it without attempting to bale or go sidways the whole way lol but stubborness won and now she and rowdy x without a problem...neither one of us are "pros" just stubborn hehe


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## jannette

lol yes it does dee.....:lol: i think being even just a little more stubborn then your horse is the ticket, every win counts!!!! my friends gelding liked to get 1/2 way across bridge and then jump off...we spent the better part of our day going over, back over, over, back over ect....tell mr. rowdy did it without attempting to bale or go sidways the whole way lol but stubborness won and now she and rowdy x without a problem...neither one of us are "pros" just stubborn hehe


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## Blazer1484

Thank you, I also found this post to be very helpful. My horse and I are still training with each other and everything you said makes so much sense to me and gives me insight into how she has been behaving lately. Thank you!!!


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## Blazer1484

nworkman82 said:


> Love it. As a novice I tell myself this everytime I get in the saddle. In the beginning I was just like you described... A spoiler and far too soft. But after going to training when I thought there was somethig wrong with my horse... I was set straight. The problem was ME!! My horse wasn't confused, she knew how to confuse me! Now we aren't world champions but when I am in the saddle I always tell myself the same thing you stated over and over. I'm in charge. She maybe my bestie but this two legged alpha calls the shots. Amen!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm glad I'm not the only one going thru this. I realized today that my horse (that I love and adore) is taking total advantage of me. Not anymore! Good luck!


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## kathyk

To coreyk67, I am also a relatively new rider..and an older rider (56)..I bought a mare a month ago and she is is pretty well trained...but I am not. I have her in training now to address crossing water but I'm with you, it's hard to get the knowledge we need to fix training issues before them become a problem. Many of the women I ride with at my barn are around my age, and for the most part, are somewhat timid with their horses. I am pretty confident, but also know that I don't have the experience to address issues competently. I guess we just need to keep good trainers in our pocket and not be too proud to ask for help


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## caseymyhorserocks

:thumbsup: :happydance: :clap: Great article!! 

:wave:


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## ConfusciusWasAGreatTeachr

What a breath of fresh air to read that Cherie! Am just so sick of reading crap like 'ohhh my naughty horse did this!' and 'ohh it's never done _this_ before!' It's ignorant idiots who have to label or blame the horse for something THEY caused or allowed... and even if you didn't actually create the behaviour in the first place, you were still the one to trigger and create the stimulus for the horse to react. A horse is only a horse and can only BE a horse. 

Not only that but covering up symptoms of a problem is my big bug. But it works right?? So it _must_ be good?? Ahh freaking ignorance towards these beautiful innocent animals.

''To err is human, but to blame the horse is even more human''


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## gunslinger

I'm up every morning, feed and brush...clean the stalls...etc. yada, yada, yada.....

I'm really starting to wonder if the horse isn't training me, rather than me training the horse......???


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## Hunter65

AWESOME AWESOME AWESOME!!!!

This has just given me a reminder that I have been getting slack with Hunter. I do try and work on something with him every time I see him as he is only 3 and still learning and testing (big time). I am going to post this on the wall at the barn. There are definately a few people who need to read this.


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## izzynella

Im 110% on this one too!!!  xxx


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## heidifinland

So true!:clap::clap::clap: 

Every moment with a horse is training. And you don´t have to be abusive, when correcting the horse. With some easier horses, you don´t have to correct anything. But with strong, willfull horses one has to take command and not slip. And then everything goes smoothly for a while...:wink:


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## Moearle

thankyou for that post- I am a novice rider but lucky to have a very trained horse and under saddle is pretty good-he has tested me a few times with wanting to refuse moving in a direction I wanted to go-but I stayed with it, even with him stomping his feet-and we did go where I wanted with no problem after that. But I know I have done things that have shaped his behavior and some is not so good-for example I can't do ground work on a lunge line-I can't get him to move out away from me, so I just gave up-so I believe I trained him-don't move out and we don't have to do this... when I am out in the pasture, he follows me like a dog, which I don't mind, he walks just behind or beside me-and will stop when I stop or tell him to, will back when I tell him to back, and will follow my hand direction as far as moving his hind or shoulders out if needed when he is walking with me....so two questions- do you feel a horse must have groundwork exercises done to be more respectful, and #2 if I must do groundwork...since I have established a certain routine/behavior/expectation from this horse, .... ok here is the newbie coming out in me..I want him to like me, and not avoid me, because I might make him do something he doesn't like so...will I confuse him or threaten his trust in me now if I become insistent or change things up, for example figuring out how to get him off me and make him do ground work on the lunge line....thanks again for your insight!


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## sprinkles716

Wow this is right on point! The effective way IS the only way.


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## tierneylove09

I absolutely loved reading this! So true!!


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## karebear444

I'd have to say the more I learn the more I realize I don't know which keeps me humble, but interested. Horsemanship is a journey, we all start somewhere. I truly believe there is always something new to learn no matter how much you think you know.

I think one of the biggest battles is finding that right person to teach you to be a better rider. I really liked the trainer where I first boarded, he was knowledgeable and most of all I felt comfortable with him. Sadly, he moved away.  

I went through a series of bad places and then came to where I am now. I enjoy the place where I board. It's has an indoor, outdoor and trails. The only problem is I've been there for almost a year and a half and I don't feel comfortable with the trainer so I haven't been taking lessons just watching some of them. Things are going pretty good with my horse, but I feel like I'm not growing like I should be. This place is close to home where I can get out and ride almost everyday. I live near a small town so all other boarding options would limit my riding time due to my job, the distance driving and barn hours so I'm not sure what to do.


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## jennay

*I am THAT owner!! (and equally ashamed of it!)*

In my defense, my family acquired the horse but I (and he ..decided he was mine early on. We had some lessons both separately and together with a local gal.. a veritable superwoman, who confirmed it was not an issue with him as much as with us, city folk. However, after getting him home from that short training/assessment.. I lost confidence in my ability to control him and gained the FEAR that he will discover just how powerful he is.. :O Now, he spends his days bored and I am so ashamed of myself for letting it go on this long. In addition to the lack of horse know on my part, I have also now, spoiled him the way(s) you described. HELLLP!!!! I need to know D.I.Y. methods to UN-DO this!!! VIDEOS are the most helpful ... and when you think of me, think "for Dummies" I have never owned/cared for a horse prior to him and I AM the only one here who is willing to do the work. I just have no idea what/when/or how.


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## oceanne




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## ktrolson

This is my little saying:

Whenever you ride a horse, you're either training it or untraining it.

Karen


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## foreveramber

I wholeheartedly agree with this post! Even though I am definitely guilty of letting my horse get away with stuff that I should be addressing. 

I'm a psychology student, and I think that everyone who works with animals should have to read up on classical and operant conditioning, especially schedules of reinforcements. They are such important concepts and can make such a difference in your relationships with four-legged friends.


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## HorseCrazyGirlForever

Jolly good! Glad to see that SOMEBODY thinks like this! LOL!


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## Fancy That

Excellent post. Glad it is a STICKY.

One thing that wasn't mentioned is directing the THOUGHTS of the horse. A horses' body and feet will follow a THOUGHT.

Do LESS, SOONER. Not MORE, LATER.

One has to be sooooo perceptive when handling/riding horses. They do indicate their "thoughts". Look at the problematic horse that wants to go "out the gate" in the arena. The horses' THOUGHTS are out the gate, it's body will try to follow, even if you successfully, physically get it to NOT......you need to address getting the horse "with you" Making your idea, his idea.

A horses' #1 priority is COMFORT & SAFETY. Understanding them, and knowing how to offer them a good deal, the sweet spot, the place of release and relaxation and comfort....that is VERY VERY strong, from a training perspective.

This is what good horsemanship is about.


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## Lokahi

Yes, I totally agree.. but I can understand as well those who've had not very "fun" trainers to put nicely.. and who have a rejection of training.. For those it is important to know that every interaction with a horse is a training, whether of good or bad behaviour, but it doesnt have to be so much "work".. 
If you don't train your horse, your horse will train you, and its way more fun one way then the other,
Happy Training, 
Lokahi


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## binyo

Hear,hear...


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## WSArabians

I completely agree with the post, something so many people need to read, figure out, and act - just not the title.


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## Coffeejunkie

Dissapointed nobody has brought up pain as an outlet for these behaviors for as long as its been up. Not justifying them, and if done without warrant completely unacceptable. I am not a passive owner, my horses have always been ladies and gentlemen with no major quirks (which is a major purchasing consideration for me).

That being said, I had a gelding with high trail class honors as a youth. I set up a tight pinwheel one night as I did once every couple weeks in our obstacle rotation. He warmed up as usual. Do one, no problem. As we loped up to it again, he stops and backs up. Try again- refuses it again. Try again- refuses? What the heck?? Get off, feel up and down his legs and he's touchy on his front legs as I near his hoof. Ok.. Have the vet out the next day. Suggests X-rays, ok. Comes up navicular??? Get him managed, and go on to do many more pinwheels with no issues. 

Part of horsemanship is knowing your horse and suspecting problems before you push them through the pain to more issues too. That also means knowing when your horses need a good old fashioned smack (no a wave of the "carrot stick" doesnt count), regardless of their previous medical hx. These problems wouldn't have ever justified my gelding to try to bolt if I was walking him down the aisle, or to pin his ears or kick at me when I entered his stall. 

Happy trails, showing, loving on your pasture ponies, or whatever has brought you here


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## Horserescue

i love this article because it both asks and answers common questions so awesome


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## Nokotaheaven

I loved reading this! so true! It made me think of a horse I know, I will see her again this summer. I am hoping to finally get it's owner to listen to me, because that horse was the perfect horse when they got her and loved people, now all she wants is to be left alone by everyone. The last time I saw her, she'd threaten and pin her ears if you so much as looked at her. So I tried working with her for a few minutes to see what would take her mind away from threatening. What i did was id take a step towards her, she'd threaten, so id stop where i was. She'd still be pinning her ears, so I'd point my body and eyes away from her and watch from the corner of my eye. After about a minute of me standing like that near her, her expression would go from 'leave me alone' to 'hey whatcha doing?' and she'd turn her head to sniff me.. But as soon as my eyes turned to her she'd retrach her nose and threaten again. I'll try more of this when I see the horse again...
Because maybe once I can get close to the horse and show her owner how she should and wants to be treated, maybe they'll finally start listening to me.


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## AussieLina

I completely agree with the OP.

I am currently part leasing a 5yo eventing prospect. The owner does a lot of jumping, while I am doing dressage.

When I first met this horse, the owner told me to be careful because she 1. steps on your toes/walks over you, 2. kicks out/bites at feed time and 3. gets hot and bolts if you ride her outside the arena. Oh boy did she try the first time, but I didnt take a bar of it. Issue 1: walking over people: I made her walk 5 steps backward for every time she walked into my bubble when I was leading her on a loong and loose lead (the owner usually hangs onto her by the bit). Issue 2: I put the feed into her feedbin and made her wait at the other end of the yard until I walked out (and left her to eat alone). Issue 3: I did heaps of transitions and whenever she started running I would first try to slow her down with my seat, then voice, then a one rain stop. On my second ride she forgot to stay back once we got closer to the stables -but when I turned back and gave her my "mean look" she backed of instantly!  And she did not even bother trying the other stuff on me.

The owner didnt believe me when I told her, but she said that her ride the following day had been pretty good too.


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## catlanning

I couldn't agree more with your post!! Big thumbs up! I really wish I could get one of my owners to read your posts you explain it so well.


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## catlanning

My owner of a 4 yo QH I'm working with wants a nice western pleasure/trail horse. I am a firm believer in ground work, respect and trust on both the part of the horse and rider...and owner. Though the horse is broken already and has done walk, trot, and lope with the owner I have done little more then bomb-proofing and yielding to pressure on the ground. I feel the owner is getting frustrated but I have explained to her that there has to be communication and a partnership started on the ground before the horse or myself will respect each other in the saddle. However, against my better judgement she insisted I go on a trail ride with her riding her other horse and myself on the young one. I was very pleased with the baby she responded well to my leg and everytime I asked her to trust me about scary things and to move past them she did. We are now back in the ring and still working on groundwork and I have been in the saddle a couple times for short bits working on yileding to my leg seat and reins. However, I have injured my leg and now the owner is riding her again for the past couple days and is complaining she can't get the horse to move between two bushes on a trail ride and that she has to get off and lead the horse through obstacles and that the horse is threatening to rear etc. I just want to tell her she needs to work slowly and work with me when possible on the ground and get the horses respect...its not a race to finish the horse. Its a lifetime of learning, teaching, respect and trust...a partnership.


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## Nokotaheaven

Oh wow! I loved reading those comments. Honestly i think it's great that there are people out there who know and understand and try to see things from the horse's point of view.
With that mare i spoke about, i know the owner never pays attention to her unless they want to ride or throw her an apple. half the time they get someone else to brush the horse for them even. and they know nothing about horses but you can't tell them anything... so when they found out their horse responds to leg yeilds, they decided not to believe in or use them because they don't know about them. They just kick her to do things and use the reins to turn and stop her. I know last summer she tried to buck them off.
So when im back up there, even tho ill only be there for a limited time, i am going to bring my helmet in case i can get the horse to trust me enough to get on her back. and if i do i'll probably go bareback too because there's probably more problems with the saddle, and i want to show the horse she can trust me first. and if i can succeed in this maybe the owner will listen... hopefully


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## AussieLina

Nokotaheaven said:


> and if i do i'll probably go bareback too because there's probably more problems with the saddle, and i want to show the horse she can trust me first.


Mmm, just be careful.. I dont know about everyone else, but I have found that green/"problem horses" are worse if you ride bareback.. Maybe because the riders seat bones dig into their back (which they haven't felt before)? I tried it back in the day for the same reasons as you, but because the horse was even more tense I soon learnt to tackle the issues with the saddle before even thinking about riding.

Just schedule a whole day, and saddle her up as if you were breaking her in. I am talking about going through all the steps as if it was her first time from rubbing her down with the gear all the way to lunging her with the saddle on before you even think about getting on. only move to the next step when she is relaxed and indifferent to what you are doing in your current step.


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## aforred

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nokotaheaven

Ah okay. Never thought of that. Thank you


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## Hunter65

AussieLina said:


> Mmm, just be careful.. I dont know about everyone else, but I have found that green/"problem horses" are worse if you ride bareback.. Maybe because the riders seat bones dig into their back (which they haven't felt before)? I tried it back in the day for the same reasons as you, but because the horse was even more tense I soon learnt to tackle the issues with the saddle before even thinking about riding.
> 
> Just schedule a whole day, and saddle her up as if you were breaking her in. I am talking about going through all the steps as if it was her first time from rubbing her down with the gear all the way to lunging her with the saddle on before you even think about getting on. only move to the next step when she is relaxed and indifferent to what you are doing in your current step.



This true. Hunter is only 4 and he hates it when I ride bareback. Doesn't help that my balance isn't what it used to be. :-|


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## AussieLina

I had a fun day yesterday... I am retraining this ladys gelding because the horse has become too pushy for her son to feel safe on (its been developing for a long time, he lets the horse do whatever it wants because he just wants to plod along and have fun).

Well after having done a decent amount of ground work, I got on to teach the horse the one rein stop. Everything was going splendidly until we stated practicing it from a walk. Then he decided that he is not going to let some stranger tell him what to do, and started alternating between bucking, rearing, attempting to bolt, spinning and trying to scrape me off his back by using the wall of the arena. He only tried to scrape me off two three times, because I started riding with my whip to the outside and gave him a whack each time he ignored my outside leg. The first time he was so shocked that I would dare to actually use the whip that this ex pacer did a decent shoulder in at collected trot . I stayed at it for almost two hours, until he stopped playing up and walked straight and slowed down & bent his neck when I slid my hand down the rein (rather than forcing me to actually turn his head). I am happy but exhausted! I was supposed to go for a ride today but my leg and core muscles are sore and I feel like being a sook..


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## Christawho

*Keep posting!*

Thanks for read. I'm learning so much!


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## Horsnaround64

Great thread. And so true. These horse figure us out fast. And like to train us there way.


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## G8tdh0rse

Amen, amen you have got it right. Horses learn all the time. They are constantly reading us. We don't pay enough attention to what they are saying to us.


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## ccrainbo

Hello, I'm new. I agree with you Cherie, I am training my new best friend. I had to put my 29yr old mare down last Oct. I still miss her with all my heart. I just got my Friesian/Paint April 29th He turned 2 May 10th. We are still just doing ground training. I was planning on breaking him to ride next May (if he is ready) but , during the longing training I noticed he would quit & turn towards me but only in one direction, I kept a close eye on him and checked for lameness - sure enough . when the vet came out took x-rays, he has high ring bone on his rear right, the vet said it was most likely due to an injury before I got him because his other pastern is normal. My baby! He was doing so well learning more and more and so quick, I was devastated, he may never be sound. We are doing a new treatment that was actually developed for young horses his age - alcohol injections to fuze the joint. He had his first injection August 9th. Has anyone had these done to thier horse?
ccrainbo


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## Nokotaheaven

I'm sorry but I can't really help you... But I wanted to say I really hope he will be okay.... Lameness is a terrible thing to have to deal with... Once a horse gets it, it makes it more likely to happen again in the future... We had a horse that had 4 laminitis attacks in 6 years... He was only 9 when we put him down.


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## ShaneBaybutt

this is true


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## Rangeroam

*Gotta have respect.*

Nicely put. I've checked into many trainers so-called best method. It is important to say that there are good and even great points that many of these trainers make, but no method or program is "the" catch-all problem horse program. Each program that has stood the test of time, has done so by having someone who understands the way a horse thinks and processes information, lay out a few good reminders for those who are trying to understand horses. At this level, horses can begin to be less mystical and their training can become much more attainable. After all, understanding your horse, or child, or the people you come in contact with from day to day is a super effective way to build that bond that so many horse owners are yearning to achieve. Your horse wants to please you, but they, just like you, would like to see someone with their best interests in mind calling the shots. If your horse doesn't respect you, they may decide they need to call the shots, even if they like you. Someone needs to lead.


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## livelovelaughride

This post may be better served somewhere else, but I thought I would chime in. My TB's history is unknown to me, he is 17 and pretty much been there done that or so I was told. He is calm, sensitive, and willing but if he gets nervous he backs up. I haven't experienced this much til I went off property with him. My trainer observes he will panic and his mind can shut off. 
The more I force him to move forward, or if he gets frazzled, he will walk backwards into anything. 
After such an experience - we were returning from a balky trail ride and my riding partner suggested we walk past the driveway. I tried to but Ed began backing up, turning, etc, and I allowed myself to get frazzled, too. So my partner turned into the driveway- in the direction of home. My gelding, still frazzled, then refuses to walk down the driveway to home. If I forced the issue he went backwards the wrong way down the driveway. I didn't have the mind at that moment to walk off property, probably should have tried. It was if he stopped thinking at all, just reacting blindly. So I got off and we did laps up and down past the driveway and onto the road for 200 yards back and forth.

He will go out by himself, which is odd. When we get to a sticking point I use open rein to keep him pointed the right way, and use my voice, and bump him with my legs. I have seen this method work better with him and he remains calmer. He and I have been together for only two months, but my trainer knew him well and we continue to be in a program. I consistently do groundwork and confidence building with him and keep working on leadership/trust.


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## Rangeroam

*Backwards Movement*

To livelovelaughride.

I absolutely felt immersed in your situation while reading your post. Some years ago, I had the occasion to acquire an old grey mare (only actually 5 years old as it turned out) named 'Frankie' for reasons I later learned meant she injured herself constantly and was dubbed, "Frankenstein." 

I knew she was anxious concerning several certain situations, and I decided I liked her enough to pasture her for a project horse shortly after I received her. The seven mile trip to my mothers mountain pasture included a 2.5 mile highway stretch with wide shoulders. I was, as a result, unprepared to react in the manner I would have liked (in retrospect) when we reached the little two-lane highway bridge at mile 1.5 of the highway stretch and she came 'unglued' at the sound of the passing and oncoming traffic crossing the bridge at 60 mph. My first instinct said, "come unglued bigger and put her in her place." Would've probably been somewhat effective, but is this where I NEEDED to direct my energy? 

Human vanity...

This is where my epiphany struck. Out of necessity to reach the destination, I pondered the moment... "Every time I point her at the bridge, she starts crawdaddyin,' so, in the interest of keeping this ride as routine and uneventful (AND without turning around and spending the extra 45 minutes to go around the mountain) I'll just embrace the crayfishin' and we'll ride backwards". 

The entire length of the bridge was traversed in reverse.:lol: 

The reaction's timely manner, was key. She tired of backwards movement very soon after completion of the bridge obstacle.

However, while in the jaws of the sabre-toothed bridge, the white line that was three feet from the guardrail was never crossed. I mean, that horse rode as straight and perfect as if she was following her mom,...in reverse. She needed someone to "take the reins" and lead her convincingly. My success in this session (always training) hinged on my appropriate reaction to what I considered a foolish concern, though she didn't see it that way. 

My lesson was learned that, in this particular instant, maybe keeping things in line with an air of practicality would benefit both the horse and the rider. I kept that horse for another year. I would have her still if I hadn't taken a job out of state. 

I guess my point is; if you encounter a situation where you are unsure what to do about a particular hang-up, stop and think about whether there is a way that you can get your desired results, while letting the animal know, "I understand you're uncomfortable with this and I am willing to let you do it your way in the spirit of compromise, but, there will be no mistake about the fact that we are going down that driveway, one way or another." Your take on your situation may well have extenuating factors, unaddressed in my interpretation of your situation, but received with that in consideration, find not the instructions in the text, but the intention. There will of course be those particular instances when this interpretation is the absolute wrong thing to do. 

Your call. 

There will, undoubtedly, be someone who disagrees with some aspect of this technique, but then, in the spirit of the thread, take the good from each chunk of sage wisdom, and apply it to your personality, and your horses personality. 

It may, or may not, be a method consistent with your take on what the horse needs. It is for 'you' to decide, and every trainer should encourage inquisition to and improvement on their method. We never know everything. It just gets harder to find improvements as we sharpen our skill. I'll never stop listening, though I haven't heard many sound, usable suggestions lately, like the training advice I was so absorbent of when I started. 

In my opinion, each horse has a specific need, for a specific understanding of their concerns, with a positive conveyance of your leadership thrown in, to give them confidence in you and your ability to be clear, concise, proficient, calm, and charismatic enough to warrant their undying affection and loyalty. This is what builds lasting trust between the horse and rider.

This is where we (or at least I) finally understand the reasons for the broadness of the training techniques on the "market" today. Each one as I eluded to before, is not a scientific diagram, as much as it is a method of reacting to your horse, with sensitivity to that horses own "Horsenality." (of course, this particular term is Parelli derived, but was something I saw as worthy of incorporation into my own training style.) 

Never is there a need to dismiss an idea, based solely on the fact that it was not your own. After all, it was your idea to 'allow' it into your playbook.

You are on the right track. Being versed in several methods of instruction and guidance makes us better grounded, and more prepared trainers. 

Don't you think.

Even if you have no interest in the nuts and bolts of day to day training of your horse, and tend to leave this on the shoulders of your trainer, your understanding of what your trainer is doing or not doing will give you a better idea of what that trainer has programmed into your horses mind, what your horse thinks of it, and how you can best utilize it. 

When it becomes time to move in a positive direction, you'll have the upper hand because you have considered the advice, and made an informed decision, confident in the fact that you've done some checking around. I hope this gives you a lift, and you are able to appreciate it and incorporate something from it into your own style. 

Never underestimate the power of your own style. Good luck and keep me posted on whether this post was as helpful as it was originally intended.


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## livelovelaughride

I like that your post was thoughtful and out of the box thinking. Thank you so much, its obvious you put some time into your post. 

That walking backwards thing. He was so nervous when unloaded at the trainer's (who sold him to me) he walked backwards around the entire property. But I have seldom seen that behaviour unless he's stressed.

In some horses, and not to make excuses for my horse's behaviour, pushing/forcing the issue past a certain point in this horse's head makes him frazzled and he STOPS thinking about his personal safety and becomes "stupid". As my coach commented, "he will escalate to or over the amount of pressure/force you are willing to escalate to". Could this make him dangerous? Yes, I think so. I wish I knew more about his background. He is otherwise well mannered, calm, etc. Ground manners exceptional. Loving, affectionate. Et al. 

I like that another well respected trainer in our area said it's better to push a horse out of their comfort zone, allow them to freak a little, then let them calm while under your control and presence, than to experience the same event in another setting that offers less of a safety envelope. 

He does have 2 facial swirls on his forehead close together. I cringe when I read Linda Tellington Jones' comments that horses with 2 swirls close together tend to behave poorly in stressful situations!! He is my heart horse and I am
committed to working with him in any way suitable to overcome any holes in his training or background, and experiences.


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## Cherie

I have found that there are several ways to 'teach' an easily upset horse that does not get them reactive.

Obviously 'forcing' them is not a option. Hitting, jerking, using a chain, and any other direct force only backfires. That does not mean you cannot teach them to think and to do the right thing. The key is to use a method that elicits the correct response, does NOT let them determine what they are going to do in a stressful situation and 'lets' them figure out the safe and correct response. It is simply a matter of 'opening the right door and closing the wrong ones'!

I consider any horse that responds to stress by balking or worse, by backing up, to be too unsafe to ride. All one has to do is have a hind foot 'hang up' on some little thing and the horse will roll over and up-side-down on the rider. One will back into traffic or a fence or ???? I saw one back off of the side of a bridge and land up-side-down in a muddy creek-bed on top of a rider -- about a 15 - 20 foot drop. Both could have been killed. Only the soft mud saved them. 

On that same note, I consider backing one to get something done or to get one to go somewhere to be a very dangerous way to get something done. While it works when everything goes right, the results can be tragic when it does not work. 

For me, 'forward impulsion every time it is asked for', is so important to safe horse riding and training that I refuse to go any further until I have figured out a way to get it. There ARE ways -- without letting the horse be in charge. Even mental lightweights with a 'hair-trigger' blow-up point and a low level of trainability CAN usually be taught to do the right thing.


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## Aina

Great post! I just bought a horse that I knew about four years ago. She had her problems back then, but we sorted them out and she was wonderful. Well, when I got her back, she would trample and rear on the person leading her. Someone had let her get away with a lot of stuff and she was frightening. So my BO made us spend about the first week almost solely on groundwork. We couldn't even just let her calm down on her own because she had to be handled every day and that was dangerous behavior. I was a bit furious because this was my baby and I just got her back. I didn't want to be "mean" to her, and I wanted to ride! But, throughout the week she calmed down and learned and now she is back to being the great horse she was. But I still have to continue to work on her on something or other, even if it is just learning to play soccer with a ball in the arena. Personally, I think it's fun to train and have a horse that doesn't perfectly follow your every commands exactly. I like training and working on something new, or refreshing the old. It makes life interesting.

Its funny how some people mention how certain instructors teach you how to sit pretty and that's it. Mine was the opposite. I learned how to make a horse do what I wanted, and it wasn't always pretty, but it worked. Now I am just learning how to sit pretty and things like that. I've been riding on and off for almost 10 years.


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## livelovelaughride

I'm going to have my trainer ride him off property and follow discreetly. SHe has far better read on him that I. Cherie, I totally agree with you. When I bought him his owner mentioned it as a quirk. Ya. I am aware of this "quirk" I still feel he's a good horse for me. BUT we haven't been together long enough or done enough to witness him running backwards in a blind panic. If that ever happens to me, well I would consider re homing him. 
I would love to hear more about how to get a horse to think under pressure. I have recently read horses do not learn well while stressed. I try and introduce him to things I think might challenge him (in hand). I am always looking for things to show him and things to do to relate to him as a leader. There are ways and (safer) places to explore how much pressure can be tolerated before a horse has a meltdown, right?


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## animallove

Thank you Cherie. This helps me grow as a rider and as a teacher to my horse


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## Rangeroam

Ahh, so many tidbits of advice could be better served as polite suggestions, rather than served up as "this is what the box looks like, this is how you open it, this is what is inside..." The idea that you have "the" answer to a problem without having witnessed all of the intricacies of the situation, in my opinion makes you a poor choice to take advice from. 

This will no doubt give someone who resembles this in their posts, a poor attitude of me, but be advised, I had read the posts for several days before responding to them. I gave this some thought, and I am in agreement with much, if not all of the return addendum's to my post.

I have no designs on correcting any trainer's advice unless it is faulty and of the dangerous sort. Even then, I intend to give rebuttal in a polite and un-assuming manner. I do not consider myself a horse trainer, though, many people and horses have benefited from my polite suggestions. I am always aware of my tone and try to give advice on the "if this situation were of this particular sort, then...", with the disclaimer that my advice may not be applicable to your situation. There is NEVER a time when I feel that it is ok to down someone who is trying to give clear advice with a respectful tone.

In the future, please have the courtesy to read the entire post, including the disclaimers and "IF...THEN" comments. I would ask that consideration be given to context and intention.

My horse never had run backwards in a blind fury, but maybe someone's horse did. My horse was not a danger to back across the bridge, but how could you know that if you were not present. I have been aware of your response for several days and I realize that it may not be directed to me, but I think that many people will appreciate someone correcting your tone. I know that chances are, that you will attempt to disprove my advice with some chapter out of some book. Nice. 

In the future, I will be cautious to advise when know-it-alls are in the room. 

Have a pleasant day.


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## Rangeroam

I must add, if not made clear previously, that I am in total agreement with "dangerous backing" advice. 

I just followed the link to your website, and found that your opinions of horse training are absolutely sound. I expect that you have been so right for so long, that you have lost the ability to see anything besides your own correctness. I suppose that makes your view of everyone else to be a view of a faulted opinion. That is the problem with so many trainers, >and I am not in that category< that there is my way and the wrong way. 

I attempted to address this in my original post but to no avail. I would ask that you re-read my entire post and, then, I would welcome your wisdom. Please give a thought to up-and-coming trainers and how your advice and the advice of other veteran trainers has the legs to run them off from the training community. I work with some students and teachers who have the gift of their opinions having merit, solely based on their feel of horses. 

I expect that even you were a budding trainer once, who appreciated compassion and respect for your ideas from your mentors.

Thank your son for serving our country. I too served, 1/75 Ranger Medic '92-'95. Hooah.


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## MAG1723

Awesome Post!


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## Serenity616

Wow! Thanks for posting! I agree!


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## westdressgirl

*This is good!*

This so true, very well said!


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## RiverBelle

Cherie said:


> EVERY RIDER IS A TRAINER! I tried to figure out what thread I wanted to post this under, and there were half a dozen that needed it so I thought I would give it is own thread and everyone can discuss it at will. Crucify me if you like, but these observations have come from more than 50 years of effective and very successful training of all kinds of pleasure and performance horses AND THEIR OWNERS from many breeds (including Arabians and mules) along with retraining literally hundreds of badly spoiled horses -- mostly spoiled by novice owners with good intentions.
> 
> I am afraid most backyard horse owners and more than a few people that claim to be 'trainers' actually understand what constitutes 'effective' horse riding and training. Few understand how horse behavior actually works.
> 
> An effective trainer (or rider) looks at EVERY ride as a training session. An effective rider goes into every ride with a plan and fully expects the horse to be doing something 'better' at the end of that ride than it did at the end of the last ride, even a relaxing trail ride. To expect less will result in less. Horses seldom exceed our expectations. To get a better outcome than you anticipated is a 'gift' and you shouldn't expect one very often.
> 
> I frequently hear people say "But I don't want to learn how to train a horse. I just want to have a pleasant trail ride when I take my horse out."
> 
> Well, that is not how a horse thinks. If you are not teaching that horse to do something better than it did before, then it is learning to do something worse. It is a steady down-hill drag until the owner HAS to address the horse's training, has to have someone qualified fix it, turns it into a pasture pet, trades it off or sells the spoiled beast -- frequently to the kill pen. YOU _ARE_ A TRAINER WHETHER YOU WANT TO BE ONE OR NOT!!!
> 
> Another mistake that novice owners and 'would-be' ineffective trainers make is thinking that trainers have to be harsh and 'mean'. If a person effectively trains a horse from the beginning, most horses can be trained without anyone ever having to get after them. But, it is NOT always possible to retrain a spoiled horse and get it to stop really bad behavior without getting a lot rougher on them it. It depends on the individual horse, but bad behavior -- particularly dangerous aggressive behavior - has to be stopped and the horse has to know that such behavior has serious consequences. This is a lot different than never letting a horse do bad things to begin with. Again, some owner / rider somewhere is responsible for letting the horse become spoiled. Training a green horse is MUCH different than retraining a spoiled one. It is SOOOO much better to never let them learn bad behavior.
> 
> That brings me to some of the questions I read here:
> 
> "Why did my horse bite me?"
> "Why does my horse try to turn around?"
> "Why does my horse stop and refuse to go?"
> "Why does my horse lay its ears back at me?"
> "Why does my horse put its head down and pulls the reins through my hands?"
> "Why does my horse throw its head up?"
> "Why is my horse threatening to rear?"
> "Why won't my horse back up?" (Substitute trailer load, cross water, stand tied, let me pick up his feet -- the list is endless.)
> 
> Horses do (or don't do) all of these things because someone has let them do it before or has let them do little things that led up to doing this bigger thing. They simply do it because they can and have.
> 
> The difference between these horse owners and an effective trainer is that trainers notice and interrupt the little things before they become big problems. If a horse pushes against a bit, ever so slightly, the rider should interrupt that push, over-correct it and demand that the horse back off the bit.
> 
> If a horse pushes a shoulder out and 'drifts' out even a stride or two, (like toward a gate), that should be instantly countered by demanding a leg yield the opposite direction. If a horse is to be taught to stay between the rider's hands and between the rider's legs, the tiniest deviation has to be corrected, long before the horse runs shoulder first to the gate or a friend or the barn or ????
> 
> If a horse tries to turn around, that should be interrupted immediately and the horse should always be turned back the direction it turned from -- never brought all the way around even though that would get it headed back the right direction. That is a 'win' for the horse. To turn back is a win for the rider and an effective correction. To turn back abruptly and rather roughly with a heel or a spur in the ribs would be an even more effective response, especially if this is not the first time the horse has tried this stunt. You want the horse to know that it is unacceptable for it to initiate any move you did not ask for. It is MOST effective to interrupt a behavior as it first begins. This means you 'meet' the horse and fix the problem before most observers can even see what the horse tried to do. A good rider can 'feel' a problem before an observer can see it. This is what is called 'timing and feel'. Good riders and trainers have good timing and feel like having a sixth sense.
> 
> Every rider needs to remember that anything you allow a horse to do is what you are training that horse to do -- as surely as though it was the intended training goal.
> 
> As for rearing -- that is almost 100% the fault of the rider -- either past or present. Horses rear because they lack forward motion or have a fearful rider that is pulling too much on the reins. Fearful riders cause most rearing. They either lack the skill or nerve to ride a horse confidently forward or they are so fearful that they 'trap' the horse between their pull on the reins and the horse's desire to go forward. A trapped and frequently nervous horse feels that they can only escape by going 'up'. Once they rear and the rider gets off or takes them back to the barn, they have been effectively 'trained' to rear to get out of uncomfortable situations. It quickly begins a spoiled horse's often fatal descent to the killer pen or to permanent turn-out.
> 
> Every single thing a horse does that is not exactly what the rider wants or has asked for, should be immediately countered by some action on the rider's part that interrupts or corrects the behavior.
> 
> On the other hand, every rider has to be fair. Riders and trainers should only ask a horse to do what it is ready and able to do. Expectations should not exceed the horse's mental or physical ability. If a rider wants reasonable responses, they have to make reasonable requests and have to be ready and able to get the job done.
> 
> The rider should not accept less than full and reasonable compliance from the horse. In other words, do not ask a horse to do something that you have not prepared him for and have the time, ability and the full intention of getting done. To fail, tells the horse that it does not have a strong leader that it can trust and that obedience is optional. This is where most trailer loading, water crossing, bathing, spraying, bridling etc problems begin. The more times you fail to accomplish a goal, the less likely the horse is to do anything else you want, either. Pretty darn quickly you have a spoiled horse that only does just what it pleases and could care less what a handler / rider wants it to do.


I just want to say, that I completely agree. I have had horses with little bad habits like pulling the reins through your hands, or walking sideways instead of straight where you want them. I do not claim to be a horse trainer in no way, but I do know the difference between working with a green horse and one that has already developed bad habits. I just wanted to say that I agree.  Thanks for the rant!


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## beju22

now you know what your talkin about!!!!


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## JeniTex

Thank you so much for posting this. Training issues brought me here and your post was just what I needed to hear. There's free advice and priceless advice. Yours is the latter.


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## faiza425

I don't even really need to comment. Well said Cherie!
I've met with so many horses that have gotten away with enough crap with previous owners to fully appreciate your post and hope that people will really take this to heart!
I'm lucky enough to have an instructor who from my first lesson told me that each time you come in contact with a horse, you either teach or un-teach them, no matter what. It has really transferred over into my riding and I'm glad someone else is out there is saying what needs to be said!
Have a good day!


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## Laffeetaffee

I'm so glad someone else understands this. I'm so sick of people complaining about "wannabe trainers" and how people should stop trying to train horses on their own... Horses are constantly learning from us, whether they are learning to be dominant and pushy and disrespectful, or they are learning to listen and move off your leg when applied. So you're a trainer when you ride, you're a trainer when you lead, you're a trainer when you feed, you're a trainer when you pet. I wish stuck-up horse owners would realize this and stop bashing people for being "fake" trainers.


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## May

This made my day - and the response here baffled me completely!! I think just like you here; down to the last detail, and finding people who thinks like this is not something that happens every day. A few months ago I posted a very similar post in a Norwegian (I'm from Norway) forum, and the response there could not have been more different. After a few days it was one of the most read and debated threads - the difference was that people where deadly offended, and couldn't believe I could be so disrepsectful to my horse as to expect it to simply obey me. The point that you don't ask for more than the horse can give mentally and physically seemed to be lost, as people were disgusted at my mentality of wanting the horse to be on job when with me, doing his best, accepting that I'm the boss. Apparently this was outrageous.


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## LoveDanceRide

Nicely said


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## LoveDanceRide

I think that that is why some lesson horses 'go bad'. Too many a times do the younger riders let the horses take advantage of them, so the horses develop bad manners and rude habits that the advanced kids then have to deal with. Some of those ponies turn into complete DIVAS!


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## KayceeJo

Thank you so so much for posting this. It is amazing how many people do not realize that this is the most logical realization in the equine world.


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## JustmeNyuma

Fantastic advice! Thank you


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## JackieM

Thank you for this response. I am leasing a horse that I am ruining! I am there almost daily for the past 5 months, except this past month due to medical issues, and every expects that this is all common sense, but it isn't if you are middle age and dealing with horses for your first time. The only feed back I get is to straiten my legs...but when I lunge the horse and she kicks at me there is NO feed back. Do I pull at her, do I let her finish her tantrum and work her harder? Sure I'm ruining the horse, but there is no one to tell me how not to, just telling me that I am. 
So thank you for recognizing that it may be that we are not effectively being taught...if it wasn't for this forum I would be lost! Thank you everyone!


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## Cherie

Hi Jackie, Welcome to the Horse Forum. I wish it were under better circumstances --- but you can 'fix' this. 

I also read your other post. If this mare started out being a nice 'babysitter', she can go right back to being that horse. You need to get a handle on this quickly because it is fast downhill from where you are now. 

First of all, let me tell you my stock saying that people hear from me ad nauseum but you probably have not heard it before so here it is: *

The worst thing you let any horse do is the very best thing (or performance or behavior) that you can expect from that horse!

*Just keep telling yourself this every time you interact with your mare. When you handle her, you are teaching her to respect and behave or you are telling her she can do as she pleases and does not have to behave. I believe you have mostly done the latter.

Do not worry whether you are working her in the morning or at lunchtime or at night. Don't ask her opinion about anything. She should be respecting YOUR opinion.

You are waaaaay too worried about what she thinks and what she likes and what she wants. Don't worry about a 'bond'. Horses do not need you to be a friend. A horse needs you to be a strong and worthy leader that they can trust to make good decisions. They should not have to make any decisions. Their decisions would all be to go back to their friends or go to food. They don't obey you or respect you because they like you. You cannot bribe or buy their respect. They bond with the person that demands respect and leaves them alone when they are doing the right thing. They trust those that they respect.

Now, to analyze who is in charge of who -- it is usually the one who moves their feet first that is the loser. In other words, any time you 'give' ground to a horse, the horse KNOWS it has won -- many times when a novice does not even think a stand-off has happened, much less been lost. When you step purposefully toward a horse and 'smooch', that horse should back up or move away from you immediately with its ears up and not shaking its head or showing displeasure in any way. It should look like a very simple "Yes Mam!"

You said you could read animals well. I think you do not know how to read horses at all. You have simply capitulated every time you should have corrected the behavior and advanced toward the horse. You have backed off every time the horse has demanded it instead of the other way around. This inmate is in charge of the asylum and she knows it. She is getting more bold and more obnoxious every day and it will keep getting worse until she is outright dangerous. 

THE INSTANT a horse shows disrespect, they should be corrected. In her case, she has shown you so much disrespect that you are going to have to harshly correct her now. She lays back an ear or stops and stiffens up and acts like she is even thinking about rearing up or striking at you (front feet pawing at you is called 'striking' and not kicking), you need to start jerking her lead-rope HARD with a stiff rope-halter and need to make her back up briskly about 40 or 50 feet. I never have to use a chain shank or a whip, but you may need one or may need someone with more experience to help you get rough enough on her the first time you two that you take charge.

If she does not want longe out on the end of the longe line like you ask, you should get after her hard with a whip. Don't be afraid to hit her hard, and what ever you do, do not just peck at her or threaten her with the whip. She is not going to break and you are not going to hurt her. If you do have to hit her hard, then, when are are done longeing her, make her stand and face you and rub her with the whip and hit the ground with it all around her. This is to reinforce that she does not need to fear the whip, but needs to respect your commands. Don't just longe her 2 or 3 laps. Make her go several more and only stop her when she is doing it right and willingly.

If she turns her butt to you, snatch and jerk her around hard and keep jerking her until she backs up another 40 or 50 feet. Then, go back to what you are doing.

You can fix this in 2 or 3 sessions. If it takes longer than that, you are not getting after her hard enough to make it work. You do not have a green horse; You are not trying to teach her these things; You have a spoiled horse and she needs to be corrected. The more quickly you get her respect, the more quickly she will go back to being the horse she was.

I hope I have not been too blunt or too harsh with you. If you want more exact details, PM me and I will try to help you with specifics. You can do this.


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## LoveDanceRide

WHOA!!!!!! Take it easy! I get that action must be taken, but this is animal cruelty. Horses are still animals with brains and they deserve to be respected as well. I think that you should first learn more about the problem, or learn how to respect animals, before you go writing posts like this. Not cool.


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## JackieM

I hope that wasn't in response to me as I just said I need more direction...Cherie has posted to me a couple of times and I disagree with most everything she says, I have sought out professional help and veterinary help and it turns out that when my Mare is acting up she is in heat. I highly disagree with the harshness that some people take with their horses, dogs, kids, etc!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cherie

The problem is that most horses get spoiled because some novice owner with good intentions did not make them mind and let them get by with murder -- sometime literally. A spoiled horse is a dangerous horse; If someone has not been hurt by it, it is just a matter of time.

I spent 30 of the 53 years I have trained horses, training for the public. Spoiled horses require a totally different approach than untrained or unspoiled horses do. Just 'getting them past' their problem does not 'fix' the behavior. They will continue to do it over and over when they decide they do not like the request the rider / handler has given them. They remain 'unsafe' and a threat to the health and well-being of everyone that interacts with them. 

Yes, some mares can be more obnoxious when they are in heat. They need to be 'mannered' just like a stallion because being is heat is a lousy excuse for bad behavior. Trying to kick someone in the head is just plain spoiled, mean and dangerous behavior that should NEVER be excused by saying "Never mind; she is just in heat."

EVERY horse owner needs to know the difference between a 'reason' and an 'excuse'. A 'reason' is something you figure out and you address the problem and fix it. An 'excuse' is just that -- an excuse. It means the owner is giving the horse a 'pass' -- an excuse -- and accepting the bad and dangerous behavior.

Sometimes it is too late and people do not get the opportunity to finally figure out they have made excuses for their spoiled horse. They are injured or dead and cannot address the behavior.

During the 30+ years I trained for the public (as opposed to just training horses I owned) spoiled horses taught me a lot. It taught me that to truly get a horse over being spoiled and not go back to repeating the bad behavior when their owner came and got the horse, I had to get rough enough on the horse to MAKE IT NOT WANT TO REPEAT THE BAD BEHAVIOR.

You see -- any good trainer can train any horse to do anything that the trainer and the horse are capable of doing. Any good trainer can add a lot of knowledge to any horse. BUT, I have yet to meet the trainer that can take anything out of a horse's head -- period. 

I get really angry when I see owners spoiling horses. I know that someone is going to have to follow behind them and treat the horse much more harshly trying to 'clean up' their messes; or I know that the horse is going to get too spoiled and dangerous and will end up on a killer truck headed for Mexico. Some of these horses started out being really nice prospects and some were even very well trained and safe 'baby sitters' at one time before someone badly spoiled them.


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## Palomine

LoveDanceRide said:


> WHOA!!!!!! Take it easy! I get that action must be taken, but this is animal cruelty. Horses are still animals with brains and they deserve to be respected as well. I think that you should first learn more about the problem, or learn how to respect animals, before you go writing posts like this. Not cool.


Are you directing this at Cherie?

Her advice was correct and well said.

Learn to respect animals? Please. 

Horses need to respect humans, not other way around. 

Horses are ruined every day by someone who has gotten Black Stallion Syndrome with touch of Flicka thrown in.

And most of those will end up slaughter bound too.


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## Palomine

JackieM said:


> I hope that wasn't in response to me as I just said I need more direction...Cherie has posted to me a couple of times and I disagree with most everything she says, I have sought out professional help and veterinary help and it turns out that when my Mare is acting up she is in heat. I highly disagree with the harshness that some people take with their horses, dogs, kids, etc!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Disagree with one of the more sensible horse people on forum? And you do this from what? Your vast knowledge of horses and your many years of dealing with them?

Mares are in heat all the time in our training barn and there is no slack taken because of that. Mares can act like they have sense even when they are horsing, and do, for sensible owners/riders.

Let a horse come upside your head with a hoof one day because you disregard anything that might be too harsh with poor little horsey and let's see how you feel then. If you can still think that is.

And with this attitude, no wonder you are having problems.


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## bsms

I used to disagree with a lot of what Cherie said. Then I gained some experience...:wink:

This is from another thread, but I went looking to see what else had been written._"Today I went to work with her, I usually go around 1pm, well I went at 8am, on the way home from taking my daughter to school. I decided that 8am is just going to work better for me, but she doesn't get turned out til about 8:30/9am. So...not only did she not get her morning hay with her friends, I haven't seen her in over a week, and I changed my normal visit time. She was bad, mad, and fully ready to tell me. She did fine for the grooming, but when I brought her up to lunge her (which I decided is all I was going to do considering I had taken her away from her grazing and she was ANGRY) while she was on the lunge line she would pull her face, (fine I can work with that), rear at me, and kick with her front feet at me. She wasn't charging me and was a good 6 feet from me, but all in all was making sure I knew that she was not having it."
_​My mare is fairly intense, dominant and opinionated. However, if I come and take her away from her hay...so be it. She gets 22-23 hours a day to eat and be with other horses. When I arrive, she's on *MY* time. Period.

She isn't allowed to be angry. She isn't allowed to tell me "she was not having it." No rearing, no kicking, no head tossing, no sass. If she reared at me, I'd nail her with the Hammer of Thor. Or whatever else I had nearby. At that point, she would be one step away from the gut wagon, or the auction in modern American terms. A horse who thinks you are subordinate is a horse who could kill you without even meaning to do so.

In addition, I figure I can take whatever respect and obedience she gives me on the ground, and have about 50% of it left once I'm in the saddle. It is kind of like stopping - if a horse gives you a sloppy stop at a walk, there will be hell to pay at a gallop!

There is nothing abusive about expecting a horse to behave, and nothing abusive about taking any steps needed to get the job done. The real abuse is being so kind and loving that you turn a good horse into a monster destined for a one way trip to Mexico.

BTW - without inspecting, I have no idea when Mia is in heat. Part of that is her personality, but using being in heat as an excuse for a horse to rear & strike out is like allowing women to claim they shot someone because it was that time of the month - it is a non-starter. If someone tells you your mare is dominating you because she is in heat, they are blowing smoke up your butt. She's dominating because she views you as a lower, unworthy being. 

Just IMHO. Mine isn't worth a huge amount, *but Cherie's is!* Pay attention, or pay the consequences. A flick of the hoof can remove your face, or the face of a child.


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## PaintedFury

You should really listen to Cherie, she is not in any way advocating abuse. She is telling you that you need to fix the problem that you have created, and have admitted to creating. Honestly, I trust her, probably above and beyond anyone else on this forum. I can't say that I would blindly follow her instruction, but if I have a horse that is becoming dangerous, I would. If she told me to hit the horse in the head with a shovel, no, but I don't see her ever recommending that either.

A horse is easily 5-10 times our size, and we are not physically capable of actually harming them like they could harm us. A horse that rears and strikes out of defiance, anger, or whatever other emotion you want to use here is dangerous, period. That horse needs to understand that you are in charge, and will remain that way for eternity, period. Every horse is different, but once they get to the point of becoming dangerous, correcting that behavior is the first priority, not how the horse feels about it. No horse wants to willingly give up their position of authority. That's why when a less dominant horse fries to move up in the ranks there is a fight. That fight may be as simple as a glare by the dominant horse, or a total can of whoop @$$. It depends on the lower horse's resolve to move up in the ranks.

Horses do not have emotions like we do. They are not happy or sad, they live on instincts. Those instincts tell them that if they do not have a good leader to step up and become one themselves. Your horse was not angry that you started at 8:00 am and took her away from her buddies. She thought that you were overstepping your bounds by insisting that she leave them, and she made that point very clearly, because it made you post the question on here. Horse training is not rainbows and butterflies, and sometimes things have to happen that goes against what we feel is appropriate. But, our version of appropriate and a horse's version of appropriate are totally different things. Our appropriate is not likely to hurt them physically, their appropriate can easily kill us. See the difference?


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## LoveDanceRide

JackieM said:


> I hope that wasn't in response to me as I just said I need more direction...Cherie has posted to me a couple of times and I disagree with most everything she says, I have sought out professional help and veterinary help and it turns out that when my Mare is acting up she is in heat. I highly disagree with the harshness that some people take with their horses, dogs, kids, etc!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, that wasn't in response to you! I think your doing the right thing seeking professional help. I was disagreeing with Cherie. You just keep on trying! Good luck with your mare!


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## JungleJulia

Thank you Cherie!
Six years ago I used to ride six days a week and after lessons (unlike the other student who just came out to play, ride and decorate their horses) I would spend time with my teacher looking at horse injuries and lunging horses. I didn't want to only ride, I wanted to learn about horse management and training.
I'm now visiting a ranch where twenty horses are out on a pasture behind a house and barn. A lot of endless land. The man that lives there is very knowledgable and teaches a lot about how you need to catch every bad behavior that the horses would do. He always makes sure to point out stuff that we think is "cute" that is a horse showing us bad manners! Some of the horses like my favorite names Houdini have awful manners but we're learning the three second correction rule.
I'm hoping to get the opportunity to train Houdini (I knew him when he was an itty bitty foal). He is very much a people lover since John (owner of the ranch) did imprinting.
For now, till I get his permission, I will read and read the stickies on the forum as well as work with a trainer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PrivatePilot

Just wanted to bump this in light of a recent thread. Bravo, well written, and every bit true based on everything I've come to know about horses.

I'll be adding a link to my signature to hopefully quietly point more eyes to this thread since there are a lot out there who need to read it.


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## Horsecrazygirl62020

This is an amazing post. So glad somebody is finally saying this. Love it


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## Jolien

bsms said:


> I used to disagree with a lot of what Cherie said. Then I gained some experience...:wink:
> 
> This is from another thread, but I went looking to see what else had been written._"Today I went to work with her, I usually go around 1pm, well I went at 8am, on the way home from taking my daughter to school. I decided that 8am is just going to work better for me, but she doesn't get turned out til about 8:30/9am. So...not only did she not get her morning hay with her friends, I haven't seen her in over a week, and I changed my normal visit time. She was bad, mad, and fully ready to tell me. She did fine for the grooming, but when I brought her up to lunge her (which I decided is all I was going to do considering I had taken her away from her grazing and she was ANGRY) while she was on the lunge line she would pull her face, (fine I can work with that), rear at me, and kick with her front feet at me. She wasn't charging me and was a good 6 feet from me, but all in all was making sure I knew that she was not having it."
> _​My mare is fairly intense, dominant and opinionated. However, if I come and take her away from her hay...so be it. She gets 22-23 hours a day to eat and be with other horses. When I arrive, she's on *MY* time. Period.
> 
> She isn't allowed to be angry. She isn't allowed to tell me "she was not having it." No rearing, no kicking, no head tossing, no sass. If she reared at me, I'd nail her with the Hammer of Thor. Or whatever else I had nearby. At that point, she would be one step away from the gut wagon, or the auction in modern American terms. A horse who thinks you are subordinate is a horse who could kill you without even meaning to do so.
> 
> In addition, I figure I can take whatever respect and obedience she gives me on the ground, and have about 50% of it left once I'm in the saddle. It is kind of like stopping - if a horse gives you a sloppy stop at a walk, there will be hell to pay at a gallop!
> 
> There is nothing abusive about expecting a horse to behave, and nothing abusive about taking any steps needed to get the job done. The real abuse is being so kind and loving that you turn a good horse into a monster destined for a one way trip to Mexico.
> 
> BTW - without inspecting, I have no idea when Mia is in heat. Part of that is her personality, but using being in heat as an excuse for a horse to rear & strike out is like allowing women to claim they shot someone because it was that time of the month - it is a non-starter. If someone tells you your mare is dominating you because she is in heat, they are blowing smoke up your butt. She's dominating because she views you as a lower, unworthy being.
> 
> Just IMHO. Mine isn't worth a huge amount, *but Cherie's is!* Pay attention, or pay the consequences. A flick of the hoof can remove your face, or the face of a child.


I was reading this topic to learn some more. (novice rider here ), I understood that when a horse tosses his head and you are on the ground you pull on the leadrope? Give some jerks back?) And when working in a round pen you should increase pressure (make them run) every time they toss? toss = run. Toss again = run faster. By using the leadrope to touch the butt? Or do you give them a whip with a whip? How hard?? When the horse is loose, approaches you and then does this, what would you do to correct it??? (Until now I pushed them on the shoulder joint, step back!) When in the saddle I assume you also pull-pull-pull back?? Untill it lowers it's head? Should you also use other gear/gestures besides pulling back?? Should you make them move harder?? faster? I want to learn, I think it is important to nip unrespectful behaviour in the butt. Because I see a lot of horses doing this. What do you do when they head toss while being ridden?? Today I caught my dog (more experienced with dogs then with horses) in the act of wanting to bark (not doing it, but I just saw his muscle movement, attention shift and gaze change) at some goats. Immediately corrected it. Not having this behaviour because if I let him he soon will go a step further and eventually it will escalate into an attack (i know him well enough ). As with my dog I will want to make sure I am not teaching horses bad things without realizing it.  This means stopping the first signs of disrespectful behaviour?


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## Avna

Jolien said:


> I was reading this topic to learn some more. (novice rider here ), I understood that when a horse tosses his head and you are on the ground you pull on the leadrope? Give some jerks back?) And when working in a round pen you should increase pressure (make them run) every time they toss? toss = run. Toss again = run faster. By using the leadrope to touch the butt? Or do you give them a whip with a whip? How hard?? When the horse is loose, approaches you and then does this, what would you do to correct it??? (Until now I pushed them on the shoulder joint, step back!) When in the saddle I assume you also pull-pull-pull back?? Untill it lowers it's head? Should you also use other gear/gestures besides pulling back?? Should you make them move harder?? faster? I want to learn, I think it is important to nip unrespectful behaviour in the butt. Because I see a lot of horses doing this. What do you do when they head toss while being ridden?? Today I caught my dog (more experienced with dogs then with horses) in the act of wanting to bark (not doing it, but I just saw his muscle movement, attention shift and gaze change) at some goats. Immediately corrected it. Not having this behaviour because if I let him he soon will go a step further and eventually it will escalate into an attack (i know him well enough ). As with my dog I will want to make sure I am not teaching horses bad things without realizing it.  This means stopping the first signs of disrespectful behaviour?


The trouble with your questions is that the answer to all of them is "it depends."

I have one horse who, if she does anything "wrong" it is always because of worry or fear. This is a horse you can never correct, only soothe. 

I have another horse that if I didn't pee on her cheerios every time she gave me a side eye would be biting me soon. But sometimes she is also 'misbehaving' because she is plain scared or agitated, and then, any correction will just make her more scared, more agitated. 

Do not get hung up on the whole respect thing, when you can't read a horse's emotions yet. Best advice is to take a chair and go watch horses interact in a herd. They are using language with each other -- horse language. Their relationships are not simply hierarchical, like chickens. They are complex, and yours need to be as well. You need to be able to speak horse to communicate with one. It's a big subject and there are no instruction manuals.


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## walkinthewalk

Avna said:


> The trouble with your questions is that the answer to all of them is "it depends."
> 
> I have one horse who, if she does anything "wrong" it is always because of worry or fear. This is a horse you can never correct, only soothe.
> 
> I have another horse that if I didn't pee on her cheerios every time she gave me a side eye would be biting me soon. But sometimes she is also 'misbehaving' because she is plain scared or agitated, and then, any correction will just make her more scared, more agitated.
> 
> Do not get hung up on the whole respect thing, when you can't read a horse's emotions yet. Best advice is to take a chair and go watch horses interact in a herd. They are using language with each other -- horse language. Their relationships are not simply hierarchical, like chickens. They are complex, and yours need to be as well. You need to be able to speak horse to communicate with one. It's a big subject and there are no instruction manuals.



I also have one of each that you described

Speaking Horse: I have told DH more than once that Joker tells me where he wants me to put the therapy pad and the massage pad. I, in turn, relay that information to the equine chiro. DH used to look at me like I needed a straight jacket until I finally said to him "you do KNOW that Joker can't talk?!?! That he has his own way of communicating and its up to me figure it out?"

Av a figure out how to put all this on a T-shirt and make a lot of money:thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## mkmurphy81

Every horse is different, and the way you treat one horse should be different than another. It's just like people.


Head tossing can be a sign of disrespect, but it isn't always. For example, I have one sweet old gelding that I use for little kids. When he starts tossing his head, I correct the kid. "Loosen up on the reins. Get out of his mouth. He's not going too fast." I know that horse. He's not giving attitude. He's just trying to communicate. 



On another horse, head tossing may be a sign that a buck or bolt is coming.


Most horses are very expressive and will tell you what they're thinking or planning. It's up to you the human to learn to read their body language. Watch them in a field talking to each other. Right now, I'm watching two of my mares out the window. Fat Mare said, "this grass is so good!" Pushy Mare said, "move over, I want that grass." Fat Mare moved and declared that the grass in her new spot is the best ever. Pushy Mare is confused because it's all the same old grass to her.


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## SteadyOn

Agree with what the others have said. Head tossing is almost always a symptom of something else. You need to find out the cause, not just try to correct it, or both you and the horse will just get frustrated.


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## SteadyOn

Going to add, the best thing I've done for my handling and training skills was to binge-watch Warwick Schiller videos. Get on there and start anywhere, with anything that looks interesting, and just... keep watching. You start to get a real grasp of pressure, release, body language, behaviour... he's really, really, really really good. 

https://www.youtube.com/user/WarwickSchiller/videos


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## bsms

> Originally Posted by bsms...I used to disagree with a lot of what Cherie said. Then I gained some experience...


6-8 year old thread. I've gone back to disagreeing with Cherie. Or not. Because a lot of it depends on the horse & situation.

"_Every single thing a horse does that is not exactly what the rider wants or has asked for, should be immediately countered by some action on the rider's part that interrupts or corrects the behavior...The rider should not accept less than full and reasonable compliance from the horse. In other words, do not ask a horse to do something that you have not prepared him for and have the time, ability and the full intention of getting done. To fail, tells the horse that it does not have a strong leader that it can trust and that obedience is optional...

...Obviously 'forcing' them is not a option. Hitting, jerking, using a chain, and any other direct force only backfires. That does not mean you cannot teach them to think and to do the right thing. The key is to use a method that elicits the correct response, does NOT let them determine what they are going to do in a stressful situation and 'lets' them figure out the safe and correct response. It is simply a matter of 'opening the right door and closing the wrong ones'!_" - Cherie

There is a lot of room for interpretation there.

I am not interested in a horse who obeys me without question. When I discussed some of this in PMs with Cherie years ago, she agreed. A thinking horse is a wonderful thing. Getting a thinking horse requires letting the horse think. And sometimes get things wrong, just as we sometimes do.

If the horse is smart, he'll figure out he can smell and hear things you cannot. He would be STUPID to blindly trust the rider, who is himself handicapped. I have long since concluded you often have to give up some control in order to gain better control by teaching the horse to control himself.

That said, if you buy a "trained" horse, you are probably buying a certain amount of bad training - training that is not helpful to you. The horse will never forget that training (example: _If I buck, my rider will FINALLY pay attention to my concerns_). He won't forget, but you can teach him a better way of expressing his frustation or concern. To do that, you will first need to 'close the wrong door' by making it ineffective. Keep closing it until the horse looks for an answer that works for both of you.

Closing the wrong door may look and feel harsh. Going toe to hoof with a horse isn't always pretty. But if you do not close the wrong door, then a horse who has been taught to use it WILL use it. So close the wrong door and let the horse find an open door you BOTH like.

I call it "mutually acceptable compromise". Tom Roberts called it - and this is a wonderful training rule - "This will profit you. This will profit you not."



> These terms mean exactly – exactly – what they say.
> 
> “To Profit” is to benefit or gain: to be better off. The profit to the horse can be any reward or encouragement the trainer may think his pupil should receive – and it must, of course, be available to give.
> 
> “To Profit Not” means that the horse will gain or benefit not at all. Just that. It certainly does not mean that he will suffer a loss or be worse off – as he would be if he were punished.
> 
> This is what is so important about these expressions – and why I use them. By no stretch of the imagination can “Profit you not” be construed as punishment.
> 
> It consists of withholding any gain, reward, encouragement and profit. That, and only that.
> 
> Quiet Persistence
> 
> “It will profit you not” means that the horse will not be encouraged to follow a line of conduct other than what we have in mind for him. We withhold any gain – which means we quietly continue with our demands, whatever they may be.
> 
> We persist. We quietly persist with our demands.
> 
> This gentle discouragement of “quiet persistence” is something that horses seem to find irresistible. Whenever you are in doubt as to what course to follow, mounted or dismounted, revert to “Quiet Persistence.” Your quiet persistence is the real “That will profit you not.” It discourages the horse without punishing him.


I have no interest in dominating a horse. Ruling the horse absolutely. I also do not want the horse ruling me! So there is a give and take. If he has a habit I dislike - not a bad habit because someone may have TAUGHT him to behave that way - then I need to make the habit I dislike unhelpful to the horse, while allowing the horse to figure out a HELPFUL way of dealing with the situation.

Notice I'm not using terms like "respect". I find that word puts me in the wrong frame of mind. Horses have taught me THAT will "profit me not".

*And when I ride, the horse is not on "my time". WE are on OUR time.* There is a give and take involved that I think Cherie agreed with, but that is hard to put into words. So much...depends.



Jolien said:


> I was reading this topic to learn some more. (novice rider here ), I understood that when a horse tosses his head and you are on the ground you pull on the leadrope? Give some jerks back?)
> 
> And when working in a round pen you should increase pressure (make them run) every time they toss? toss = run. Toss again = run faster. By using the leadrope to touch the butt? Or do you give them a whip with a whip? How hard??
> 
> When the horse is loose, approaches you and then does this, what would you do to correct it??? (Until now I pushed them on the shoulder joint, step back!) When in the saddle I assume you also pull-pull-pull back?? Untill it lowers it's head?
> 
> Should you also use other gear/gestures besides pulling back?? Should you make them move harder?? faster? I want to learn, I think it is important to nip unrespectful behaviour in the butt.  Because I see a lot of horses doing this. What do you do when they head toss while being ridden?? ...This means stopping the first signs of disrespectful behaviour?


I stopped using a round pen some years ago. Apart from initial training, for a few weeks, I see no value in it.

A horse tosses its head? Ummm...so what? Flies? Is it objecting to how much pressure you are using? Is it saying you are a jerk? Is it right? If I need a whip to teach a horse, either the horse has been very badly handled in the past, or I'm a failure. Let me share with you a wonderful piece by Denny Emerson, whose qualifications as a rider exceeds just about everyone on this forum and greatly exceeds anything I'll ever do:



> Here's how the two words, "He ought" and the three words, "He knows better" run counter to Jack Le Goff's advice on how to train horses:
> 
> Le Goff said, "Boldness comes from confidence. Confidence comes from success. So it is the mission of the trainer to create lots of situations that as much as possible guarantee success."...
> 
> ...someone takes a horse out trail riding alone. The horse would be calmer and steadier if he had company, especially quiet company, but the rider says, "He ought to be able to handle this on his own." Or the horse moves around at the mounting block, and the rider says as she yanks him around, "He knows better." Or loading into a trailer. Or being quiet for the farrier. Or accepting being clipped.
> 
> A horse does not "fake" being anxious in order to "get out of work" or because "he is being bad."...
> 
> ...Jack Le Goff's advice is to start by creating little successes, rather than to get into battles to "make him settle down". The only way you can make a horse be calm is by drugging him. You can longe or gallop to exhaustion, and he will be quiet, perhaps, but underneath the tiredness will still be nervous.
> 
> So what is so wrong with trail riding with a buddy at first, or doing tons of quiet transitions with a mild bit rather than by cranking him into a harsh bit, if it makes him calmer?...
> 
> ...But generally, "teaching him a lesson" should not be the normal "go-to" method if the goal is to build lasting confidence.
> 
> Or maybe Le Goff is the one who didn't "get" how to train horses? Maybe we are smarter horse people than Jack Le Goff? Sure. Dream on..."
> 
> --------------------------------
> 
> What I failed to realize back then was that by ramping up the intensity of my leg pressure, for example, while I did get the result of him moving away from it, I had obtained the result I wanted with a substantially negative byproduct. Yes, he moved off my kicking leg, but the sharpness of my kicks had made him more nervous and anxious. Now I had to deal with a more reactive horse, which meant very often I would feel the need for stronger rein contact to control the nervousness that I had actually created. As I used stronger rein contact, the horse got even more nervous, and the downward training spiral had begun. What I was doing was forcing the move away response rather than teaching the move away response...


Denny Emerson, Know Better to Do Better, Mistakes I Made With Horses (So You Don't Have To)

Good book. Too often, horse trainers rapidly escalate the pressure, provoking resistance, and keep going until the horse gives in - breaking the horse. "_Resistance is futile_". 

A better approach is to use less pressure and more time, causing the horse to lower its resistance, until you slide right by without tension: "_Resistance is silly because we are not fighting!_" When the horse realizes you make his life better, you BOTH win!

Some years after posting on this thread, and I think some years after misapplying it, Mia the Horse taught me - using "This will profit you. This will profit you not." + "Quiet Persistence" - that if she couldn't do it without me using a death grip on the reins and pushing her hard with my heels, then she probably just wasn't ready YET. Give her time. Give her tiny successes. And TEACH her it is OK.

Ride the mind, not the body. A soft horse is a horse who wants to do what you want, not one who must do what you want.

PS: @Avna, I wish they had a love button to click...


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## SteadyOn

@bsms, totally agree with everything you just posted!

There's one trainer I listen to sometimes, on her podcast, who refers to "influencing" the horse, always. Not "making" the the horse do this or that. Because ultimately a) that's all we can actually really DO, and b) it's a much more generous, and less micromanage-y way of approaching interactions.

While behaviours that are a real problem do need to be addressed, there's nothing wrong with letting a horse express themselves or offer an opinion, so long as they're not doing something that's detrimental or likely to escalate.

What exactly is the "problem" with a horse head tossing during groundwork? That horse is giving valuable information! He may be saying "This is hard!" or "I'd rather be over there!" or any number of things. Which is great! Much better to work with a horse that communicates. Ultimately the best way to change a behaviour is to change the mindset that leads to the behaviour. If the horse is head tossing because he's away from his buddies, then you know you have separation anxiety. If the horse is head tossing because the work is hard, then you know you're challenging him (or maybe overdoing it). If the horse is head tossing because of pain, then you need a vet out to look at the teeth. And so on.

If the horse just stops head tossing... he can never tell you any of these things. And you have a much harder time addressing the actual problem.


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## walkinthewalk

bsms said:


> "_Every single thing a horse does that is not exactly what the rider wants or has asked for, should be immediately countered by some action on the rider's part that interrupts or corrects the behavior...The rider should not accept less than full and reasonable compliance from the horse. In other words, do not ask a horse to do something that you have not prepared him for and have the time, ability and the full intention of getting done. To fail, tells the horse that it does not have a strong leader that it can trust and that obedience is optional...
> 
> i was about 17 the last time I tried that trick of forcing a horse.
> 
> I was riding along the local lake, enjoying the Fall leaves, when the horse suddenly stopped and refused to go forward across a dark spot of mud.
> 
> The horse went forward at my insistence ---- she sunk in the quagmire up to her stomach. No cell phones when I was 17, I was on my own -----
> 
> I got the horse out by some miracle and she didn't suffer any injuries.
> 
> That was *the absolute last time I did not listen to my horse.*
> 
> Saving each other's bacon is a two-way street that has nothing to do with a horse being disrespectful and everything to do with mutual trust --- even if the horse isn't familiar to you._


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## SteadyOn

walkinthewalk said:


> I was riding along the local lake, enjoying the Fall leaves, when the horse suddenly stopped and refused to go forward across a dark spot of mud.
> 
> The horse went forward at my insistence ---- she sunk in the quagmire up to her stomach. No cell phones when I was 17, I was on my own -----


Uh oh...


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## Jolien

Avna said:


> The trouble with your questions is that the answer to all of them is "it depends."
> 
> I have one horse who, if she does anything "wrong" it is always because of worry or fear. This is a horse you can never correct, only soothe.
> 
> I have another horse that if I didn't pee on her cheerios every time she gave me a side eye would be biting me soon. But sometimes she is also 'misbehaving' because she is plain scared or agitated, and then, any correction will just make her more scared, more agitated.
> 
> Do not get hung up on the whole respect thing, when you can't read a horse's emotions yet. Best advice is to take a chair and go watch horses interact in a herd. They are using language with each other -- horse language. Their relationships are not simply hierarchical, like chickens. They are complex, and yours need to be as well. You need to be able to speak horse to communicate with one. It's a big subject and there are no instruction manuals.



ok! I get this.  One horse I rode once did it, but I suspected because he was highly annoyed by flies (a lot of them) and maybe a strap that was wrong on his belly. So I always ask a trainer: why is he doing it? What should I do.


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## Jolien

Thank you everyone for your very valuable feedback! As a new rider it is so difficult to know what to do since everyone had their own opinion about horses and their own training methods... I had a horse that was head tossing once and I did not punish or correct is because I didn't understand why it did this since the horse always does what I ask for (within reason because he is older and suffered some injuries, we won't do stuff that might overstress the muscles.) and I see him really really try to read my cues (beginning rider so I bet I am not clear enough often...) I think it's a really sweet natured horse, he deserves to be understood and met in his concerns (just like every animal.)... 



To be honest I sometimes disagree with my trainer... :s I asked her if the horse was worried/afraid once and she said 'no', but I felt his muscles tense, his head went up, ears forward. He seemed really worried to me? I have always loved animals and I want to understand them. For this I mostly try to use my gut instincts and I ask advice, read a lot about behaviours I observe. Sadly my gut instinct goes against training rules like: 'horse should always do what you ask for', this makes me feel like a weak handler/trainer... because I like to give the benefit of the doubt sometimes... I kinda feel insecure sometimes about myself, but when I am with the horse I am always calm and I'd rather react too slow then react quickly and do something innapropriate.


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## Jolien

I also would like to add that I know that you can't force respect from any animals. I don't want animals 'obeying' me because they are afraid. That would be soooo ashaming for me... (I would only want to avoid mistraining or creating dangerous situations, hence my questions.) I want them to feel safe so they can learn. I am not afraid of horses because I know that if they would want to run over me they could. If they would want to kill me they easily could. If they want to throw me out of the saddle, they can. Just like a dog could jump at your throat and kill you, but no animal (!) is gonna do this if you communicate and build trust/try to understand eachother. Because I am human I accept that the horse is bigger, faster and stronger. I also accept that it is my responsibility to try to communicate by reading them and learning. 


I am gonna remain true to myself and still keep on reading and asking for advice/listening. You guys really helped me and it comforted me knowing that it's a complex thing. I will not correct the horse if I see him doing it again, instead I am gonna really observe it and pay close attention. He likes being brushed, gives me his hooves willingly, stands still, lays his head in my hands gently, etc... these are all signs that he is okay (? I guess?) so it makes no sense that he would all of a sudden behave weird while riding. Probably I am the reason, I will also take a good look at my riding and what I do, maybe I am giving unclear cues or maybe he is bored of the exercise or maybe flies....


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## QtrBel

If you ask Cherie, Avna, Steady On, bsms and the whole host of others that give valuable advice how long they have had horses in their life the answer will be years. When you ask how much time they spent actually interacting with the horse(s) again the answer will be years. Time is the limiting factor for those just getting into horses. There is no crash course. There are no short cuts. A good relationship takes time. It also takes work. 



ETA to add Side Note about time spent with horses. Time can mean anything from spending time observing to caring for and to riding, driving, working, training. It does not include reading, watching videos or gaining knowledge through a second hand source without the horse physically present. That is like going to college to teach and expecting to enter a classroom armed only with book knowledge and expecting to succeed. Not going to happen. You need that time in a class observing, You need that time in a class under a mentor. You need that TIME to gain experience to set you up for success and even then you will have days that you feel you failed. So when I say years of having horses in their lives followed by years of having interactions with the horse it means that they spend time with their horses that amounts to hours over the course of any given day, week, month or year that builds and builds. If you spend an hour a week in lessons you gain 52 hours a year in experience. There are 8,760 hours in a year. That 52 is a tiny fraction. Commit to more than that by coming early, adding more lessons, spending time observing and caring for and you build time that adds up to years much more rapidly. Still doesn't happen overnight and quality counts. 




I find some of us mean the same or similar but use different words or different ways to express that. bsms with "to profit", "to profit not" and "quiet persistence" actually comes closest to the rock bottom basics with that description. 



He uses "our terms" and I use "my terms" . We see something similar but experience has given us a different understanding for our choice of words. We've each though had the time to experience and settle into our relationship with horses. 



If I walk into a classroom and say, "This is my classroom. Participation, success and failure are all determined on MY TERMS", then to put it mildly MY success will be undermined as it IS about participation and not control. If I walk into the same classroom and say ,"This is our classroom. Participation, success and failure are all determined on OUR TERMS" then again my success is undermined. Again it is about participation but I am no longer in control. And this is why. I have opened the door for a run to see who will ultimately be the leader and in control. It won't be me. I just gave my power and authority away to the horde. If I subtly alter that to, "This is our classroom. Participation, success and failure are determined on my terms but you will be invited and encouraged to participate and your success and failure will be determined by your actions." My terms are the rules by which the classroom runs. There are some rules that are flexible and some rules that are not. There are also rules that fall in the middle. The rules that are not flexible are not rigid. They just are not up for discussion at this point because you, the student, do not have the experience to form an opinion on the matter. 



Over time you gain experience and hopefully wisdom and there is an adjustment on both of our parts. Who though is the leader? It is still the adult in the classroom. Recognizing and acknowledging that one of your students is capable and has better instincts with something and allowing that child to spread their wings builds trust but for that to work there has to be a basic respect. It goes both ways. Allowing that child to spread his wings still does not mean he is in control or that it is not on my terms. 



Besides time, you also need to develop an instinct for reading your students. You only do that in the classroom OVER TIME. While there are some phenomenally gifted individuals where it seems to be a second nature most of us need TIME. Some more than others but we all need time. And maturity.


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## Jolien

@*QtrBel* I assume you are talking about horses as students?  This is funny because I am a teacher (with kids) and I love my job.  I think I am better attuned at reading body language of animals then other people because it used to be a hobby of mine (yes I was this weird kid...). I used to sit quitly on a chair for hours... Observing pets interact. Also liked to watch wild animals and documentaries about them... But I still have much to learn about horses. (Did not grow up with them like I did with other animals) They emit an energy... I feel this energy is much stronger than with animals that are carnivores (like cats and dogs)... I also like reading people's body language. It says so much more then words do...


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## QtrBel

I teach kids too. And that is why the analogy but yes, you can replace kids with horses. It seems fate for me dictates I learn through the school of hard knocks. I never had formal instruction on either before being thrown into the deep end of the pool.


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