# Saddle slipping too far forward ?? Why?



## SouthernTrails (Dec 19, 2008)

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Could you post pics of the Saddle on your Horse without a pad?

One from a side view and one from an angle showing the front against the Horse.

Saddle could be too wide.

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## joseeandjade11 (Oct 12, 2012)

here's a link with the pictures
saddlefittingpictures - Home

the saddle is placed way too far forward on these pics though, i am aware. Im going tomorrow i will take new pictures 

i have posted a thread before on this forum and was told it was a tad too wide, here's the link to the thread.
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-tack-equipment/saddle-fit-question-link-pictures-140284/

It is possible for a saddle that is a bit too wide to cause a saddle to slip too far forward?


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

joseeandjade11 said:


> It is possible for a saddle that is a bit too wide to cause a saddle to slip too far forward?


Very possible.

I know nothing about Western saddles or how to fit them, but my TB filly, unbroke at this stage but in the process of being broke to ride, is quite a slender girl. HER saddle is one of the Wintec easy-change saddles - well, not actually a Wintec, but same system and fits the same plates - and she's in a medium plate. Her saddle sits a size narrower than the plate you put in it so she's ACTUALLY about a medium-narrow.

I put my new dressage saddle on her back because that's the saddle my dressage girth is on, and it's way too wide [it's a medium tree, but it's a Stubben, and Stubben medium is MUCH wider than Bates/Wintec medium; more equivalent to a wide Bates/Wintec plate than a medium or m/n]... I am very careful to put saddles on in the correct place.

I just walked her in-hand for 30 seconds then hung around letting her stand and get used to the saddle, and when I took her back to the tack shed to untack, the saddle had slipped forward over her shoulderblade. HER saddle doesn't do that.


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## joseeandjade11 (Oct 12, 2012)

Ok it might be that it is a tad too wide :S 
If i just do some walking the saddle will stay in place but when i start trotting or canter then it moves forward and goes on the shoulder blades and i don't like that. I used to put my saddle on the shoulder blade before, because i didn't know it would interfere with the horse's movements. So i educated myself and now i know how to put my saddle correctly although now the problem is it doesn't stay where it should be...


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## SouthernTrails (Dec 19, 2008)

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Just taking a guess by seeing your Horse without the saddle and the Saddle pics on your Horse, that Saddle may have a 7" gullet Full QH Bar, you need a 6.75" Gullet Regular QH Bar.


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## joseeandjade11 (Oct 12, 2012)

My saddle is a western rawhide adobe with quarter horse bar and has a 6.5 gullet 
Western Rawhide Adobe Dark Walnut Saddle - Western Rawhide

I took pictures with my phone, sorry if their not really clear i forgot my camera at home. I can tell my saddle is a little too wide but i can reassure you that with a pad underneath the gullet never touches the withers, i can always pass my fingers through even when sitting on the saddle.

On these pics, it looks like the gullet is touching the withers but it's not, it's close though but not touching


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## SouthernTrails (Dec 19, 2008)

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Pics can be misleading, your Horse looked wider than that. 

I know the Ralide Tree in it well, nothing really narrower out there.

You might try a pad similar to this one to raise the whole tree frame up higher Weaver All Purpose Contour Western Pad - 32x32 - Adams Horse and Pet Supply

The section where the bars of the tree rest is slightly thicker than the rest of the pad.

You can test the theory by folding some towels and placing them on each side held with some duct tape to your existing pad and then put the saddle on and see how that helps, cheaper than buying a pad for testing

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## joseeandjade11 (Oct 12, 2012)

hehe true because buying a new saddle is way out of my budget and i mean this saddle isn't THAT bad on her and it doesn't seem to bother her, it bothers me more i think lol 
i looked at the pad you showed me, it's nice. i think i will try a cut-back pad like this one 
SOUTHWEST CUT-BACK BUILT-UP PAD - Working Pads - Saddle Pads - Western Tack
or this one
WESTERN CUT-BACK 32" x 32" PAD - Working Pads - Saddle Pads - Western Tack


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## SouthernTrails (Dec 19, 2008)

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Hopefully a pad like one of those will help, a new saddle would make no difference, you have about the narrowest anyone makes 

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## joseeandjade11 (Oct 12, 2012)

aren't there any saddles with a 6 inch gullet out there? and there is the western rawhide wilder that is a semi-quarterhorse bar
Western Rawhide Wilder Dark Walnut Saddle - Western Rawhide
it's the same width (6.5'' gullet) but the the gullet is a bit higher so it wouldn't be as close to the withers

Are you serious about this saddle being one of the narrowest anyone makes?


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## SouthernTrails (Dec 19, 2008)

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Some advertise a 6" gullet, I have yet to see a true 6" gullet

A higher gullet height would help with clearance, but a pad is cheaper, by using the thicker pad in the center where the bars lay, you are raising the tree away from the withers.


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## joseeandjade11 (Oct 12, 2012)

and what about the slipping forward issue? will a built-up cutback pad help for that?


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## SaddleOnline (Oct 20, 2011)

It does look just a tad wide (the lack of wither clearance makes it look worse than it is I think) which can cause it to slide forward... but yes a 6.5" is the most narrow many saddlers will make a tree in without it being custom. Some people do advertise a 6", but I would say 98% of the time it isn't truly (one could also argue that 98% of the time most horses don't truly need a 6" gullet as much as they may need groceries or correct muscling, but that is getting off topic!). I would say the best option for you right now would be a built up pad like the one suggested! 

Good Luck!


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## joseeandjade11 (Oct 12, 2012)

Thank you very much to both of you SouthernTrails GA and SaddleOnline. And yes i agree it makes my saddle look bad because it's so close to the withers but i won't deny that it is a little tad bit wide. 

I found these pads, what do you think?
CONTOUR FELT Pad.

Classic Equine BioFit Correction Pad

SOUTHWEST CUT-BACK BUILT-UP PAD - Working Pads - Saddle Pads - Western Tack

WESTERN CUT-BACK 32" x 32" PAD - Working Pads - Saddle Pads - Western Tack

What are your opinions on these four pads?


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## SouthernTrails (Dec 19, 2008)

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The last item might work, the cut out will give any possible relief need from the pommel hitting the top of the withers, plus the thicker pad will lift the saddle bars up higher.

The last pad may have this feature like this pad, maybe it is easier to see on this model, the thicker center where the bars of the tree would rest http://www.adamshorsesupplies.com/Weaver-All-Purpose-Contour-Western-Pad-32x32-P5962.aspx

I do not see a built-up pad working, your Horse does not seem to have a sunk in area behind the withers, that is the usual reason for a built up pad.


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## joseeandjade11 (Oct 12, 2012)

ok so about the last one, the cutback pad, i was told it was 1inch thick by pleasant ridge and do you think it will solve my problem with the saddle moving too far forward? because so far i have this pad here and it's pretty thick! like 1 1/2 thick i think. it's thicker near the shoulders. and this pad slips too far forward with my saddle.








Then i have this saddle pad here:
and what happens with this pad is the pad usually stays in place, but my saddle slips on top of this pad to go sit on top of the shoulders, where i dont want my saddle to be. :S i paid alot for this pad and im disapointed is does that


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## Casey02 (Sep 20, 2011)

It may sound funny but because her belly is bigger the rigging is being pulled forward and not allowed to sit where it should. Yes the saddle looks wider and have you officially measured the saddle and know its a 6.5" ? No pad will cover up a ill fitting saddle especially on sitting that close to her withers. The bio fit pad wont help, eventually it will flatten out when you ride


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## joseeandjade11 (Oct 12, 2012)

i believe i had measured it before and it was 6.5, i shall measure again this weekend but pretty sure it was a 6.5. It crossed my mind as well that it could have been the rigging that is making my saddle move forward, i don't know


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## Casey02 (Sep 20, 2011)

I just learned that with one of our horses that she has to big of a stomach and it pushes the cinch forward. Is your mare built downhill? That could always be a problem to and she might need a built up pad like this :









Then you take the shims from the back of the pad and move them to the front, that may also help with your saddle being to close to the withers


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## joseeandjade11 (Oct 12, 2012)

What about getting something like this to help? maybe with this the saddle wont slip forward? Especially with my sierra contoured pad..
Western Felt Wider Wither Pad - Horse.com


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## joseeandjade11 (Oct 12, 2012)

ohhh this pad sort of makes me think about the CSI pads i think their called? you can add or remove foam pads in them
Here's an idea of how my mare is built:











Oh and this one has a perfect exemple of my saddle that slipped too far forward and is sitting on her shoulders!


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Your mare has what is called a "forward girth groove." Do you see how the flat spot on her underside is just behind her elbow and also just below her withers? 

There are a couple of things you can do that can help. One is to get a saddle that is actually wide enough to sit back on her barrel. A lot of people make the mistake of buying a narrower tree when their saddle slides forward rather than a very wide one that can sit farther back.
Secondly, you need a saddle that has the billets placed very far forward on the saddle.

Here is an excellent post on a blog that helped me tremendously:

Saddle Fitting: The Inside Journey: Billets

It can be more difficult to find a Western saddle with forward billets, but they are out there.

A third thing you can do is buy a cinch that is designed for these horses:









Something that is very helpful in English saddles are that you can get trees with "swept back points" which means they are angled back to allow room for the shoulder to move. This means the saddle can sit farther forward without interfering with shoulder movement.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

My Aussie-style saddle is a bit too wide. I take a pony-sized blanket and fold it not quite in half. That gives me two layers and then about 3 inches where it is one layer thick. I put that where the front of the saddle goes and it builds up the front without causing any ridgelines. Here is the blanket I use ($15):

Mayatex San Juan Solids Blanket Pony Size

Here is another option you could try ($40). I've done this with some success before...

Wintec Comfort Saddle Pad With Lift - Statelinetack.com

Although it is an English pad, it covers much of the area that the actual tree does in a western saddle. If you go this route, I'd suggest a thinner felt pad underneath, because the Wintec pad offers plenty of cushion already. If the saddle fits OK, having some forward angle to the cinch will not pull the saddle forward.

In the picture below, you can see where the cinch goes over the top of the saddle is behind where it goes underneath her, but the saddle stays in place.










In the picture below, you can see my daughter riding Trooper, and the cinch is also angled forward. The saddle stays in place fine.


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## Casey02 (Sep 20, 2011)

I have read a lot about CSI pads and considered buying one myself. I have done the "test" they offer to try other pads vs. theirs (on your hand) you can really feel a difference! But I do disagree with buying a wider saddle your mare isn't that big especially with the dip behind her shoulder. Yes she is a taller mare but I don't thing she will take a wider saddle. At this point I think it would be very beneficial to call a saddle fitter out. I recently had one out and boy can you learn something's!


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## joseeandjade11 (Oct 12, 2012)

See that's my biggest problem here, i live in the north of ontario where there are no saddle fitters anywhere close... i also agree that getting a wider saddle isn't the best idea either. My mare is 14.3 hh (she does look tall but im only 5 feet tall so im very short lol) I think that getting the wider wither pad would help with my saddle staying in place when i put on my barrel pad. As for the girths/cinches shaped rounded sort of like a u, where can i find that?
As for the pad i will check out the CSI pads as well or buy the cutback pad at 29.95 on pleasant ridge since i don't need a built up pad.


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## Casey02 (Sep 20, 2011)

Maybe call and see how far the saddle fitters are willing to travel (if there are multiple horses they may be more willing) the CSI pads are not built up pads the lay flat and have a flex plate in them. You can ADD shims to them, I think they might be an additional cost. For now you could try the wither pad but I would only use that as a temporary fix


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## joseeandjade11 (Oct 12, 2012)

Plus i love my saddle, it's very difficult for me to find a saddle that fits my legs, most western saddles all have 19'' fenders this is way too long for my legs. My saddle has 16'' fenders which are perfect and still, im at the first whole on top can't go shorter! 
ive also thought about something, with the cutback pad, where the 'u' shape whole that clears the withers, once it's place and if it tries to move forward while riding, it won't because it will be stuck cause the withers will be blocking it from slipping forward... i think? Not sure how to explain it...


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

You can always use a crupper, which I did at one point. But seriously, the size of the horse has nothing to do with the width of the tree. My mare that wears an X-wide tree is a tiny Arab who is 14.3 hands and only 750 lbs. She is very petite, but built like a light bulb when viewed from the front. Many Arabs have what you call "well-sprung ribs" and this light bulb shape combined with a forward girth groove meant I needed a very wide tree. I've also seen a 13 hand POA that needed an X-wide as well.

You can definitely try using a pad. For me, I tried many different saddles, built up and shim pads, curved cinches (worked to some extent), a crupper (kept the saddle back but it still moved hairs around on the horse's back as the saddle tried to work forward and was pulled back by the crupper), and Y cinching.

The only thing that worked for me was to buy a saddle with the billets at the front of the saddle, an X-wide tree so it could sit down on the horse where it was supposed to (behind the shoulder) and a tree with special points that allowed the shoulder to move slightly underneath the front of the saddle.

If you can't afford a saddle fitter, you can still learn a lot online by reading:

VT Horse Saddle Fittings For Wide, Narrow & Asymmetrical Horses | Trumbull Mountain

Saddle Fitting: The Inside Journey

I also really recommend this book:

Amazon.com: The Horse's Pain-Free Back and Saddle-Fit Book (9781570762925): Joyce Harman DVM MRCVS: Books


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## Casey02 (Sep 20, 2011)

I would be interested in seeing those two horses that need an extra wide tree


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## Casey02 (Sep 20, 2011)

joseeandjade- you can also get new fenders that are shorter or punch holes in the existing ones. As short as it will allow you to go. Or new thought, you could bring your horse and saddle to a saddle shop?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Width can refer to two things - the ANGLE of the tree (black lines), and the HORIZONTAL spacing (blue line). Arabians often need a tree that is wide in terms of angle, but a bit narrow in terms of horizontal spacing.










That is only one of the measurements that make up the saddle. Excellent info at this website:

False "saddle fit rules" regarding the shoulder blades

I also like this comment made at the bottom of that website:

"_The gun fight at the O.K. corral was actually started by two saddlemakers 
sitting around a bottle of whiskey talking about saddle fitting !_"​


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

I don't have a picture of the POA (not my horse), but have attached a pic of the little 14.3 hand mare (being led) that wears an X-wide. It is hard to see in the photo of the mare being led how her shape is like a light bulb, but you can see she is very petite since the person leading is 5'3". 

As far as the link to the "false saddle fit rules," I do agree that you can't just line up the cinch with the girth groove and then assume that is where the saddle should sit. Rather, if your girth groove is far forward of where the cinch ring or billets are _*when the saddle is correctly placed*_, then moving their placement more forward on the saddle can help.

The photo with the rider is just to show that a smaller horse can fit an X-wide tree, but this horse does not have a forward girth groove nor a light bulb shaped body so the saddle does not ride forward even if the girth is placed at an angle, as in this photo. However, this horse does need an X-wide tree so the saddle can sit back behind her shoulder.

For many horses a tree this wide will not work because they have a different conformation with longer, taller withers. But for some horses with bulb shaped bodies that leave only several inches for girth placement, this very wide tree can be the solution.


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## goneriding (Jun 6, 2011)

Bar flare is important too. This site has a template you can download.

Saddle Fitting: Free and easy saddle fit help from the experts


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

The gullet is just one part of the equation. For example, IIRC, if your horse has some curve to its back (front-back) and your saddle is fairly flat (front to back), then it will tend to be shoved forward by the motion of the back.

Here is what the largest saddle tree maker for western saddles shows on western trees, and the 10 types of trees they make standard (although they will make others if needed):










Steele Saddle Tree LLC - Fit To The Horse

List of different types and what makes them different:

FTBS FIT DESIGNATIONS

Here is a list of saddle makers that use Steele trees:

Vendors


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

There is an appy mare on the farm that has the exact same issue. for her, she doesnt have huge shoulders, and is slightly downhill. we had major issues with saddle fit, because we trail ride some pretty steep terrain and the saddle would slip over her shoulders and down her neck on the down hill shock::shock::shock you would walk down the hill and ride up. both saddles we used looked great on the flat, it was just down hill and cantering that caused issues.

weirdly enough an abetta with an arab tree fits her like a glove.


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## EmilyJoy (Dec 30, 2011)

Tucker Padded Breeching-Outfitters Supply

Cruppers and Saddle Breechings on Trail Saddles


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## joseeandjade11 (Oct 12, 2012)

Thanks everyone for trying to help out  
For now, like i said, a new saddle is out of the question, im in college and don't have the money for a new saddle. Plus it's not like she is ****y with this saddle, she doesn't mind it at all, never pinned her ears, let's me saddle her very easily and all. The only issue is the saddle slipping forward and i want to correct that without having to buy a saddle.
There are no saddle shops near either like the nearest would be like 8 hours away. 
I contacted the company that sells CSI pads and talked to them about my issue, so far they said they could help me out with that  so im crossing my fingers for a new pad that will help. I even contacted the company of my saddle if it was possible to send it back, change the rigging on the saddle tu put in more forward.


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## Casey02 (Sep 20, 2011)

Good for you for at least trying!


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## joseeandjade11 (Oct 12, 2012)

Thank you  I want to try and fix the issue and will try to do it with a good pad until i have all the money to buy a new one which will probably be after i graduate college. But the positive thing im telling myself is i have been riding this saddle for a couple months and she never showed me signs of discomfort so with a special pad it should be all better for a while


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## joseeandjade11 (Oct 12, 2012)

Oh dear i checked the price of the CSI pads and their like 350$ :O and that's not the worst part, it would cost me 244$ to have it shipped :S So instead i will look at the impact gel pads, anyone have ever heard of those? They look extremely comfortable for the horse! Take a look at this video:




and this one
Impact Gel ? The World?s Greatest Energy Absorbing Closed Cell Hyperlink Material


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

A pad won't change this. I think her belly is the problam. It keeps the cinch close to her elbows which then drags the saddle forward. There's a different way you can try cinching her by moving the straps to the slots in the skirt, down to the cinch ring, up to the top ring then back down and secure. This will help keep the cinch from pulling the saddle forward. It would help if you could reduce the size of her tummy.


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## joseeandjade11 (Oct 12, 2012)

Saddlebag; try cinching her by moving the straps to the slots in the skirt said:


> Can you please send me a picture of how to tie the cinch the way you described? Im very visual and i would understand much better with a picture


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## Casey02 (Sep 20, 2011)

CSI pads are pricey, you must not live to close if it would be that much to ship them haha


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## joseeandjade11 (Oct 12, 2012)

well i guessing they ship from the USA i live in the north of ontario so yeah id be crazy to pay 244$ for shipping! like holy crap it's ridiculous lol the price for the pad i didn't mind because you get what you pay for but the shipping...hell no i'd be better off buying a new saddle then paying 350 for pad + shipping LOL
The impact gel pads are much more affordable and i can get it from a dealer in quebec for a good price


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## joseeandjade11 (Oct 12, 2012)

Great news! Looks like my problem will be solved with the wonderful WonPad 
My coach had one and let me try it on my mare tonight, it was amazing! The saddle never moved, neither did the pad, because it's 1 1/4 inch thick it raises my saddle and leaves clearance between the withers, not a lot but at least an inch and i could get my hand in there no problem! And when i removed the pad, i was shocked to see that her hair was nice and flat all the way instead of all fuzzy and rolled from the pad slipping forward  was so pleased with the results, i ordered it already. Just thought i'd share that everything worked out and to thank every one of you for the great help and advice, it was very appreciated


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## Casey02 (Sep 20, 2011)

That's great to hear


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## joseeandjade11 (Oct 12, 2012)

For those who were wondering the real size of the gullet well I had the chance to take a few picture and measure the gullet of my saddle last week. 
Since it says it's a 6 1/2 inch on the website i was curious to measure myself and here's what i find out: Does it mean it's a 6 inch gullet?


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## Casey02 (Sep 20, 2011)

You need to go where the bars are towards the "inside" of the saddle. I have seen it to many times, just because a saddle is sold to you a a semi bar, or full bar. Does not mean they are always shipped out to you as that. I had a saddle fitter out and she ordered a saddle and wanted the exact same saddle in semi bars. They sent her one in full bars and never said anything. A lot of the companies do not make their own trees, you need to measure to make sure it is what you need
Here I a picture (the best I could find)









But that is on the "inside" of the saddle not the outside like this one:










Its so hard to explain over the internet. Did you say if you have any saddle shops near you? I would take it into them to have them measure it and watch!


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## joseeandjade11 (Oct 12, 2012)

No saddle shops near and i have read everywhere that you measure from the little screw to to other screw and it gives the gullet size? Just like my first pic which gives me 6 inch
BUT if you look at the 3rd pic it looks like a measured it like the exemple you gave me which gives me a 6.5


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## Casey02 (Sep 20, 2011)

The first picture is more accurately measured than the third picture


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## joseeandjade11 (Oct 12, 2012)

Casey02 said:


> The first picture is more accurately measured than the third picture


Thank you, that's how i always thought was the right way to measure a gullet to know the size


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

joseeandjade11 said:


> Thank you very much to both of you SouthernTrails GA and SaddleOnline. And yes i agree it makes my saddle look bad because it's so close to the withers but i won't deny that it is a little tad bit wide.
> 
> I found these pads, what do you think?
> CONTOUR FELT Pad.
> ...


 I used the contour felt pad trying to raise my saddle up in front for cleasrance and my horse acted like it made it tight and didn't move off as well.


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## joseeandjade11 (Oct 12, 2012)

churumbeque said:


> I used the contour felt pad trying to raise my saddle up in front for cleasrance and my horse acted like it made it tight and didn't move off as well.


Thank you for your information  
I agree, some people said the build up isn't what i needed... so i decided i was not gonna buy a built up pad after all
I have made more research and found the WonPad, my coach had one and let me try it and it worked pretty good so i ordered it last week


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