# Weight in stirrups western riding - yes or no?



## bsms

What is the right answer, or is there one? When riding in a western saddle, should you have weight in the stirrups or not?

IIRC, I was told long ago that when riding western, you should pretend there is a raw egg between your foot and the stirrup. This is in contrast to an English forward seat, where having a lot of weight in the stirrups is good.

My wife gave me a western saddle as an early Christmas present this year. Playing around with it, it seems to me:

If I put my feet forward and put weight in my LONG stirrups, I end up carrying much of my weight on my thighs, but I can pretty easily sit the trot or canter while feeling comfortable.

But if I shorten my stirrups just one hole, and try to ride that way, I bounce out of the saddle. In order to ride with the shorter stirrup without bouncing, I find my heel comes under my hip and my feet are light in the stirrup - which is more in line with what I was told was good.

However, I feel more solid on my horse with the longer setting.

Is there a right or wrong answer for western riding?

A picture from my first day riding the new used saddle, feeling very awkward with the shorter stirrup length. If it had been a video, yes, I'd be bouncing some since I had weight in the shorter stirrup in this picture:








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This is with my Aussie-style saddle from last summer, but is pretty much how I end up riding with the longer stirrup - and weight in the stirrup:








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What is y'alls' experience?

FWIW, Mia seems to like the western saddle. I think it does a good job of distributing weight over a larger area, and she seems more eager to trot quickly or to canter longer. What really surprised me is that it seems to have freed up her shoulders, and she will turn around a pylon faster, tighter and lighter than she did in my Aussie-style saddle.

And while some folks say there isn't much difference between riding English and Western, it sure feels different to this 55 year old Old Fart! :wink:

For another perspective, this is from an old thread and is what Barry Godden was taught some years back:



Barry Godden said:


> Years ago I was taught to ride 'Western' by an old, bent bow legged Canadian cowboy who had been involved with horses since he was a kid. In the 1930s he had been a winning rodeo rider. By the time I met him he had formed a Western riding club in Surrey, where anyone who rode horses used the English hunting seat. Kennie's first job with new members was to teach them how to ride Western on his Western schooled horses.
> 
> The first lesson was to adjust the stirrups so that the leg was carried almost straight. Enough bend was left in the knee to just lift the butt off the seat of the saddle even at the trot.
> The second lesson was to learn to ride with signficant weight carried on the stirrups at all times.
> The third lesson was to move with the horse, if it leant over, then lean with it.
> The rider sat upright and straight using the feet to compensate and resist the
> forces of gravity and movement by pressing down on the stirrups - which were almost being used as 'pedals'.
> 
> The rider leaned with the horse - if the horse went to the right at speed then the rider would lean over with the horse into the bend.
> 
> We always were to ride on a loose rein held in one hand only. The bits were all Western lever bits and we were told never to ride collected as the potential for accidental pressure on the horse's jaw was too great.
> 
> When we trotted - which was usually on level tarmac - we always posted.
> 
> If the weight was held on the stirrups, then the rider could not rise too high so long as the stirrups had been adjusted correctly for Western. The knee joint took the strain of rising to the trot.
> 
> The riding technique as described above was regarded as almost heresy by regular English riders trained by the British Horse Society. But it worked.
> My horse would accept being ridden English or Western.
> 
> With hindsight it would be interesting to video a western rider posting and an English rider rising to the trot. If the camera were high speed and could be slowed down then the difference in posting and rising could be better understood. A high level English dressage rider might already know the difference.


http://www.horseforum.com/western-riding/posting-while-trotting-male-riders-79035/page4/#post942370

And just because I like old pictures, here is "_Charles Myers cutting animals out from the herd. LS Ranch, Texas_, 1907"

Erwin E. Smith Collection Guide | Collection Guide


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## farmpony84

In western I like a slightly longer stirrup. Almost to where I have to "reach" for it if I want to put weight in it. I find it helps me to get a much deeper seat and then I have more freedom to move my legs when needed.


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## tinyliny

having weight on your stirrups and pushing into the stirrup are a bit different. 

having weight on your stirrup is really more of allowing your leg to hang down as heavy as it possibly can, with the heel leading the downward reach toward gravity. the toe is lifted to kind of "catch" onto the stirrup, and in the effort , the knee may have to bend, but your stirrup is never pushed away from you.

If you sit in a chair and allow you legs to be heavy and your feet to sit on the ground as heavy as they are, you seat bones will also sit on the chair as heavy as they are. But, if you push against the floor, as if you are trying to push it away from you, your seatbones will become less heavy on the chair. You can, however, lift your toes and have your heels take on the weight that you just removed by lifting your toes, and more weight will go down into your heels. 
Weighting your stirrups is kind of like this.

If you push into the stirrup, and the angle that the stirrup hangs naturally changes by going much forward, you will then be bracing, and your seat cannot be as deep in the saddle. It will be pushed back against the cantle. If you are roping cattle, or doing some reining spins, this might be the best position to be in, as you horse comes to a quick stop. But, as it dampens the energy of the horse, and creates a locked knee, which can become a pivot point if a horse suddenly changes directions.

could we see a photo of the saddle sitting without a rider on Mia's back? I am curious to see the balance of the stirrups without a rider to see if by the very design of the saddle they encourage a leg out in front , pushing on the stirrups position, as some Western saddles do , becuase the stirrup bar is much forward of the riders line of gravity . (not sure the right words, but the position a rider would line up to be in the position of "standing" should the horse disappear under you. 

I know you have issues with that concept and its' applicability to day to day practical western riding, but I am just curious about the new saddle. What is the maker?


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## SouthernTrails

> But if I shorten my stirrups just one hole, and try to ride that way, I bounce out of the saddle. In order to ride with the shorter stirrup without bouncing, I find my heel comes under my hip and my feet are light in the stirrup - which is more in line with what I was told was good.


Try punching a new hole and splitting the difference, some people have to do that to be comfortable


.


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## bsms

tinyliny said:


> ...If you push into the stirrup, and the angle that the stirrup hangs naturally changes by going much forward, you will then be bracing, and your seat cannot be as deep in the saddle. It will be pushed back against the cantle....But, as it dampens the energy of the horse, and creates a locked knee, which can become a pivot point if a horse suddenly changes directions.
> 
> could we see a photo of the saddle sitting without a rider on Mia's back?...I am just curious about the new saddle. What is the maker?


It is a Clinton Anderson saddle made by Martin. My wife saw it on Craigslist and asked me if I would be interested. It isn't very often we see a used saddle by a good maker pop up around here. I know nearly nothing about Clinton Anderson, but I liked the quality of the saddle. The gullet is a little wide on Mia, but she & I have been using a folded pony blanket (green in the picture) between her withers and my saddle for so long that I doubt either of us would know what to do with a perfect fit. The tips of the bars have a lot of flare in the front, and that seems to be where it diverges from her body. The rest seems a good fit for her. I like that it doesn't rise sharply to the front, like so many saddles seem to now. I'm using a 1/2" felt pad under a NZ wool blanket.








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For the substance of your post:

"you will then be bracing, and your seat cannot be as deep in the saddle"

That is an excellent description of what happens when I ride like that with the stirrups one hole shorter. Instead of arcing the stirrups forward, it braces me and lifts my butt and I bounce shamefully. 

That was part of what caught my attention. I'm not a big fan of heel-hip-shoulder vertical lines, but if I ride with the shorter stirrup, then that is the only way I can relax in the saddle and not brace or bounce. I need a vertical line AND light feet in the stirrups.

But at the longer setting, it is more like the stirrup pivots forward without a resulting brace. It is more like what farmpony84 describes: "_Almost to where I have to "reach" for it if I want to put weight in it. I find it helps me to get a much deeper seat..._"

I don't think I have it in me to sit 'on my pockets' like a western rider ought to do. I'd much rather lean slightly forward and let the weight be carried in my thighs and my stirrups. It seems getting 'on my pockets' would give a better overall balance for a western tree, however. But it sure feels weird if one is not used to it!

I might PM Barry Godden, because it sounds like what he was describing: 

"_The first lesson was to adjust the stirrups so that the leg was carried almost straight. Enough bend was left in the knee to just lift the butt off the seat of the saddle even at the trot. The second lesson was to learn to ride with significant weight carried on the stirrups at all times._" 

Mia seems quite content to trot fast like that, and to canter pretty enthusiastically as well.

In the English riding world, there are a lot of good books describing riding, be it dressage or jumping. Western riders don't seem to write as much. Maybe they are all out riding instead!  

Of course, it may be that both are equally good - use the more forward position for speed work, and bring my heels under my hip for a relaxed walk down the street. Put more weight in the stirrups for the former, and be as light as possible for the latter. But I am curious about how others do it...and I appreciate the thoughts offered so far!

PS - I've also switched to a leather latigo tied off on the off-side, connected to a mohair cinch since the picture was taken.


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## usandpets

This may not be correct but what I figured out. If you are losing your stirrups often, either they are too long or you aren't putting enough weight into them. If you are bouncing out of the saddle, the stirrups are too short or you're putting too much weight into them. 

For the longest time, I rode with the stirrups where I thought they were right. After long rides, my knees were sore and so were the soles of my feet. I dropped the stirrups one hole and what a difference. At first I did have an issue with losing the stirrups but I realized I wasn't putting enough weight in the stirrups. 

English does usually have shorter stirrups than western.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinyliny

that is a very nice looking saddle. It appears to have a good balance and a seat that allows you to find a good position. 
I never think of sitting on my pockets. I think that can promote a "C" shape collapsed spine.

love the saddle. did you get a good deal? guess I shouldn't ask that, though.


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## ropinbiker

BSMS, when you said "Of course, it may be that both are equally good - use the more forward position for speed work, and bring my heels under my hip for a relaxed walk down the street. Put more weight in the stirrups for the former, and be as light as possible for the latter.", you pretty much nailed it for me...the faster or quicker I want to go, the more forward I ride -- and I put more weight in the stirrup. There are times I am bascially standing in the saddle, while leaning a bit forward from the hip up. But, when I am going slow, trail riding, working on training, etc. I sit deeper and have my legs more under me with very little weight(just enough to keep my feet secure in them) in the stirrups.


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## Cacowgirl

That looks like a great saddle! I have ridden all 3 types of saddles-English, Western & Aussie. And more. I ride w/ a fairly long stirrup, unless there's jumping involved, but those days are now few & far between. I like my Western w/a fairly straight leg, but still able to stand up & clear the saddle. The main thing now as a trail rider is comfort to both horse & rider. Mia looks great in it & sounds like she is comfortable, so make the adjustments for your comfort & have fun on the trail.


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## Dustbunny

Yep...what cacowgirl said!

You and Mia are lookin' good. Enjoy the Christmas present.


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## xxBarry Godden

When riders describe their 'seat' readers often come to the idea that there is only one English seat /way of riding. In fact there are numerous 'seats' - each designed to support the rider in different postures:
The flat race jockey sits perched on the saddle; the jump jockey rides with the legs down longer. 
The dressage rider sits upright with weight in the saddle and with long stirrups with minimal weight pressing onto the stirrup irons. 
The show jumper sits with shortened stirrup leathers and bent legs allowing him to lift up off the saddle and lean forwards and over the horse's neck when the horse is jumping. 
The cross country rider carefully adjusts the length of the stirrup leather to allow the rider to rise off the saddle and jump the fences - yet the rider must be supported for the galloping lengths. 
The amateur rider adjusts the stirrups to feel comfortable until the muscles in the crotch, thighs and lower back have developed. 

An English saddle manufacturer will offer a GP saddle, a dressage saddle, a jumping saddle, a racing saddle, a hunting saddle & an endurance saddle - and mixtures of all cuts. Look at the 'Ideal Saddle Manfr's' web site. 
Most established English riders will have more than one saddle for the same horse.

Invariably every horse will have its own GP -general purpose saddle - English saddles cannot readily be swopped from horse to horse for fitting reasons.

The saddle's function is to put the rider in the correct posture on the horse's back 
and over the horse's centre of gravity and to keep the rider's weight off the horses spine. 

Adjustable stirrup leathers make if possible to allow for the different heights and physiques of a broad mix of riders.

The length of leg a rider needs is to a significant extent determined by the rider's fitness and state of muscle development.

The rider's thigh must be 'rolled' over to allow the leg to fall naturally and make it possible for the rider's heel to lie naturally lower than the toe. In an ideal situation the position of the riders heel and toe determine the length of the stirrup leathers - unless the rider is competing or having a lesson in show jumping when the stirrups should be adjusted short.

It is one thing to adopt the correct sitting position -- what counts is for the rider to be able to maintain it - and that takes muscle development. 

Acquiring from the very beginning the correct seat posture is of supreme importance to the novice rider. Sadly too few novices know why.

B G


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## amberly

I usually have weight in the stirrups but I don't push.


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## xxBarry Godden

I wrote my article about English saddles because to my way of thinking the saddle highlights the difference between English & Western riding.

On BSMS post there is a photo of his horse Mia kitted up with a neat Western saddle which enables him to do pretty much all he wants in the way of riding. The saddle from appearances sits well and by design it spreads the weight of the rider across the horse's back. There are only two adjustments - the girth and the length of the stirrup leathers. It is a sturdy workman's tool which will carry the rider, his coat and his tools of his trade. 

It was designed to enable a man to work cattle all day and is based on the design used in the Iberian Peninsular by the local herdsman who ride in the Doma Vaquera style. Even the relatively inexperienced rider can mount up and soon feel a degree of security.

By comparison the English saddle is a far more specialist tool which doesn't always offer a sense of security to the rider.

Essentially the English saddle has been developed especially for use in equestrian sports; the Western saddle is an all rounder often used by the working man.

At the recent Horse Fair held in the Olympian indoor arena, an Italian rider won the Puissance competition when his horse uniquely cleared a two meter high fence. No other rider/horse combo managed to jump that high.

The horse was wearing a simple bridle set without a bit. There was no other tie downs such as a martingale or breast plate. The rider's style was also simple in that he left the horse to find its way over the fence with the minimum of direction by the rider. The saddle was a light, cut back, jumping saddle.

It was a marvellous exhibition of what a horse, utterly bonded with its rider can achieve when fitted with the lightest of tack. The rider cried with joy when he realised he had won the competition against some high class international competitors. His horse just gave him a nudge.


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## bsms

I don't jump, but I like Littauer's theory of jumping - teach the horse to jump, then let the horse do so. I've often wondered if some horses might not jump better equipped like Mia when I ride her in my 'jump' saddle, using one hand and slack in the reins, allowing her to decide how to do what I've asked:








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But at 12 & 55, Mia and I are too old to experiment with jumping in western reins! And it sounds like the Italian rider has answered the question, at least for some horses.

The western saddle robs the rider of some of the feel of the horse. What I hadn't fully appreciated, though, is that it "robs" the horse of some of the feel of the rider...and Mia doesn't mind the theft! Comparing the jump saddle with the western, she rides about the same sitting in the western as she does in two-point with the jump saddle. I suppose if I had thought about it, it is like carrying a 50 lb pack with 1 inch straps, then changing to 2 inch straps. And sitting in the saddle is much easier on my back than staying in two-point the whole time.

I had seen some of that on the few times I rode her in our Circle Y, but what really surprised me was how well she turns in this saddle. There is a lot of flare to the front of the bars. In turn, she moves her shoulders much better in a tight turn - better than she does in an English saddle.

In some ways, I think my heart will always lie with the English/Australian saddle and the forward seat as taught by Littauer and Chamberlin. But I'm pretty sure that if I asked Mia, she would tell me to toss that western beast on her back! Either that, or tell me to trim down to my 20 year old, all running no weightlifting days, when I weighed 135 lbs instead of 175!

Time takes its toll on us all, and I reckon my odds of choosing the Martin saddle are better than my odds of shedding 40 lbs. But I think I'll keep both my Aussie-style saddle and my little jump saddle. My job now is to learn how to use the western saddle to its full advantage.


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## xxBarry Godden

By my way of thinking, the Western saddle gives the rider the opportunity of being comfortable. Horse and rider have to come to learn each other's cues.

The English rider, once he has fitted that specialist dressage saddle has to learn to follow the rules of the style in vogue.

BSMS' English cut saddle looks as though it is based on the English hunting saddle - so it should fit the purpose for all activities except those calling for a cut back saddle such as jumping. Incidentally strictly speaking it should not need a thick blanket - may just a thin cotton cover to keep the saddle clean from sweat and dust. Mr Littauer. would have approved. What is imperative is that the fit of the saddle should follow the curve in the horse's back; that the saddle does not impede the movement of the shoulder and that the saddle does not in any way touch the spine. The one illustrated is fit for a heavy male rider.



PS Happy New Year everyone Barry G


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