# Black/Overo breedings?



## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Since your looking for a loud overo... which type of overo? And good luck finding one in utero. Your best bet is to buy a foal already on the ground. There is no way to predict how loud or subdued a horses white patterns may be.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Also, what breed? "Overos" are in many different breeds...


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## cmarie (Dec 19, 2011)

Here is an ad in my area for 2013 foal crop.
APHA Black Overo Foals


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## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

cmarie said:


> Here is an ad in my area for 2013 foal crop.
> APHA Black Overo Foals


From that ad

"Smoke N Midnite Hawk - APHA Homozygous Black Overo Stallion"

Um...I hope they mean homozygous for splash or sabino. Otherwise that horse wouldn't be alive.


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## cmarie (Dec 19, 2011)

it's for black not overo maybe they should add a comma


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## trainerunlimited (Jan 26, 2012)

I wonder why most of the foals are wet in the pictures? To make the black more black perhaps? Love the color and chunkyness of all the foals!


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

trainerunlimited said:


> I wonder why most of the foals are wet in the pictures? To make the black more black perhaps? Love the color and chunkyness of all the foals!


Looks to me that they washed or at least hosed them off for pictures. Took the pictures before they were dry because they were in a rush to get lots more foals cleaned up or had other things to do. Whatever the reason, I am glad that they took the time to make their foals more appealing in pictures by cleaning off all the dirt and muck they may have been collecting :lol:


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## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

Why no blue eyes???
Just curious


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## Gundogs1969 (Dec 5, 2012)

Breezy2011 said:


> Why no blue eyes???
> Just curious


I'm new to the paint breed, but its what my daughter wants. I have been told that the pigment around most blue eyes will be white with a hint of pink. And with that comes the very big chance of sun burn and really dry/cracking skin around the eyes.

If this is an incorrect statement, please give us some more insight.

Thanks


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## Gundogs1969 (Dec 5, 2012)

SunnyDraco said:


> Looks to me that they washed or at least hosed them off for pictures. Took the pictures before they were dry because they were in a rush to get lots more foals cleaned up or had other things to do. Whatever the reason, I am glad that they took the time to make their foals more appealing in pictures by cleaning off all the dirt and muck they may have been collecting :lol:



I noticed that too.. Makes a person wonder.


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## Gundogs1969 (Dec 5, 2012)

NdAppy said:


> Also, what breed? "Overos" are in many different breeds...



Black/Overo (paint)


Also, if a breeder has been breeding for quite some time now. They will have a darn good idea what there mares and stallions throw. So I would disagree with your statement. A good breeder will know almost down to a precise percentage of Color and blue eyes produced out of there stock.


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## Tazzie (Nov 8, 2011)

You can't guess accurately if a horse will have blue eyes in utero or not. Sure, you can hope for color, but that can't be guessed all that well either. I used to ride a mare from two very loud parents. She came out all black with a blaze, three white feet, and two blue eyes. Not a speck of white throughout her body to signify she was indeed a paint.

Also, while having a homozygous pattern like Tobi or Splash or Sabino would give you a higher chance of seeing color, all three of these patterns can still hide fairly well in their minimal form. Frame hides the best if there is not another pattern to go along with it, which is why it is recommended for any horse bred from a known frame carrier be tested for frame.


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## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

Gundogs1969 said:


> I'm new to the paint breed, but its what my daughter wants. I have been told that the pigment around most blue eyes will be white with a hint of pink. And with that comes the very big chance of sun burn and really dry/cracking skin around the eyes.
> 
> If this is an incorrect statement, please give us some more insight.
> 
> Thanks


Well I do not have a paint, but I do own a purebred quarter horse filly, with 1 blue eye. I do know that horses with blue eyes or a blue eye can be blind, that is why you have to check them. 

I have no problems with my filly and her blue eye, so I believe it all depends on the horse, but what you said could be true to, I don't really know.


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

No, blue eyes do not mean they can be blind. It has nothing to do with blindness. Blue eyes are tied to splash and frame, but I think research is leaning more towards splash causing blue eyes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cmarie (Dec 19, 2011)

Many blue eyed horses have the black eye liner around the eyes, the ones that don't can get sun burned.


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## kctop72 (Aug 25, 2011)

> I'm new to the paint breed, but its what my daughter wants. I have been told that the pigment around most blue eyes will be white with a hint of pink. And with that comes the very big chance of sun burn and really dry/cracking skin around the eyes.


Hi GD and welcome to the forum! Just wanted to let you know if the paint filly you decide on has white on her face with pink pigmented skin, she will sunburn, with ot without blue eyes. The blue eye has nothing to do with the horse's pigmentation. I've seen them sunburn not only on their face but their body (shoulders, back, rear) as well. I wish you the best of luck in your search!!!


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## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

Gundogs1969 said:


> I'm new to the paint breed, but its what my daughter wants. I have been told that the pigment around most blue eyes will be white with a hint of pink. And with that comes the very big chance of sun burn and really dry/cracking skin around the eyes.
> 
> If this is an incorrect statement, please give us some more insight.
> 
> Thanks


There can be blue eyes without having any white on the face _or_ body at all. Any white markings at all will have pink skin, therefore chance of sunburn. One of the greyed out geldings at the farm has lost pigment around his eye (aka pink skin) with age. He's 21 and he doesn't have dry or cracking skin, let alone sunburning, at all.



Gundogs1969 said:


> Black/Overo (paint)
> 
> 
> Also, if a breeder has been breeding for quite some time now. They will have a darn good idea what there mares and stallions throw. So I would disagree with your statement. A good breeder will know almost down to a precise percentage of Color and blue eyes produced out of there stock.


You are incorrect. Even if someone was breeding for fifty years, they may know what kind of colors their horses can throw, but you can _never_ determine the percentage. You could breed together two very heavily white-patterned pinto horses and come out with a solid colored (no white) horse. Depending on the genes, it's completely random.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Gundog there is no way to predict how much color/white a horse will have no matter how long they have been in the breeding business. Base coat colors, yes we an determine what a horse could be genetically but there is still no way to determine before hand the shade, and if black if they will be prone to sun fading or not. Once again, that has nothing to do with how long a person has been breeding or not.


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## Poco1220 (Apr 6, 2010)

Blue eyes with no "eyeliner" can be an issue. However I have one horse with two blue eyes and one with a single blue eye. Both have black "eyeliner" and therefore no issues.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

my filly is black with one blue eye, so she has no pigment around it, she has a star and a snip and is a purebred quarter horse. She is the only horse in her breeding lines for a long time (I don't know that far along her lines) that has a blue eye. She is 100% quarter horse.


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## smguidotti (Jul 31, 2012)

I want the first and sixth foal!! Such CHUNKY MONKEYS!!


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## kctop72 (Aug 25, 2011)

She is beautiful Breezy!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Horsel02 (Jan 6, 2010)

I have a bald faced paint with blue eyes and both have the eye liner and I don't have a problem with his eyes.


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## Gundogs1969 (Dec 5, 2012)

Very interesting everyone. Thanks for your input and I stand corrected. I guess I better just stick to dogs. Lol. 

With all that said. Anyone know of any reputable breeders producing black/overo foals? 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

What discipline is your daughter looking to go into? Not just 4H, but jumping, cutting, barrel racing, etc.


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## Gundogs1969 (Dec 5, 2012)

NdAppy said:


> What discipline is your daughter looking to go into? Not just 4H, but jumping, cutting, barrel racing, etc.



In due time she wants to run barrels and poles but with this new colt she wants to show in Halter, Western Pleasure, Horsemanship.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gundogs1969 (Dec 5, 2012)

Horsel02 said:


> I have a bald faced paint with blue eyes and both have the eye liner and I don't have a problem with his eyes.
> 
> Wow! Beautiful animal.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gundogs1969 (Dec 5, 2012)

I wish my daughter wouldn't be so set on NO blue eyes, but she is.  I have seen some very nice colts with blue eyes
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Tobiano, dark face/eyes, doesn't sunburn: 









Overo, 1 blue eye, LOTS of pink skin, sunburnt and needed Sunscreen and a heavy mesh fly mask for protection: 



















Overo, 2 blue eyes, bald face, no sunburn and no sunscreen needed: 










Cremello, 2 blue eyes, not a lot of white but still has enough pink skin to sunburn and I use sunscreen on him daily, won't wear a fly mask: 










You can have the eye liner tattoo'd on the horse and that will help with not getting cancers around the eyes. You can use sunscreen and/or heavy fly masks and fly sheets to protect them. I have several that I just get up every morning and go wash their faces, then apply the 50 SPF sunscreen and life is good.

If she's really dead set against blue eyes, will she take a tobiano instead of an overo? They tend to have dark faces with dark eyes more often than not, IME.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

What price range are you hoping to stay in?


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Horsel02 said:


> I have a bald faced paint with blue eyes and both have the eye liner and I don't have a problem with his eyes.


HE is fookin' GORGEOUS! I got a tobi mare who doesn't carry frame who would be AWESOME with this boy!


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

A brown eye completely surrounded by white, with no eyeliner, will have just as much issues with cancer as a blue eye. Just thought I would throw that out there.


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## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

How much experience does your daughter have with training? Just wondering whether purchasing an adult/already trained horse might be a better option.

The foals in the ad posted are gorgeous, but $4000 for a foal in today's market? Wowza!

Horsel02, I agree, your horse is stunning! Gotta wipe the drool off my phone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gundogs1969 (Dec 5, 2012)

NdAppy said:


> What price range are you hoping to stay in?


I really don't have a price range. Money obviously buys quality. But if I had to put a range, I would say $1000.00-$4000.00.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Gundogs1969 said:


> I really don't have a price range. Money obviously buys quality. But if I had to put a range, I would say $1000.00-$4000.00.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


In today's market, unless the foal takes your breath away, I would not pay anywhere near $4K, especially not for a gelding.


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

Hi Gundogs and welcome.

Like your daughter, most of us have colour preferences. Nothing wrong with that. However - and this is a big however, when seeking colour and especially these days, you must be very careful. Too many irresponsible breeders, breed for colour alone and pay no attention to conformation and/or temperament. There are tons of flashy coloured horses out there, who are a horrible mess conformationally. Certainly, some flaws can be overlooked, but others can make a horse break down and become unrideable, early in life. Be very careful, when plonking down your money, for 'pretty'.

But first things first. How old is your daughter? How much riding experience has she had? You ask for a 'filly'. That means a youngster who will require possibly, several years of training, before becoming able to be ridden. It will require a knowledgeable trainer. Unless your daughter is older, I doubt she will have the knowledge to train a filly.

I would suggest forgetting a colt or filly. Seek out a terrific and already trained, gelding. Mares can be nice but some can be marish. If your daughter wishes to show, make sure it is registered and the papers are actually up to date. Make sure you know the difference between Paint and pinto. Pintos are any horse with spots/colour. Paint is an actual breed. Make sure you know the difference between (for example) a black and white tobiano horse and a frame overo colouring. Find out from your daughter, which colour it is that she actually wants. Show us a pic of one of her favourite horses, so we know here exactly what she likes.

Let us know the area in which you live and then hopefully, some of us here, can point you in the right direction, of horses suitable for your daughter. It needs to be the right horse for her and not just a pretty coloured horse which could be a dangerous mount.

Lizzie


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## Gundogs1969 (Dec 5, 2012)

FeatheredFeet said:


> Hi Gundogs and welcome.
> 
> Like your daughter, most of us have colour preferences. Nothing wrong with that. However - and this is a big however, when seeking colour and especially these days, you must be very careful. Too many irresponsible breeders, breed for colour alone and pay no attention to conformation and/or temperament. There are tons of flashy coloured horses out there, who are a horrible mess conformationally. Certainly, some flaws can be overlooked, but others can make a horse break down and become unrideable, early in life. Be very careful, when plonking down your money, for 'pretty'.
> 
> ...


Lizzie,

Thank you for your input. Our daughter is a beginner. She is 7. I have had years of experience growing up and in recent past. BUT not with Paints. I use to own several QH. But our daughter wants a black/overo Paint. We live in North Platte, NE. We would love to find a nice filly close, but not against to traveling for the right one. We aren't against a 2 or 3 year old either. We have a great horse trainer already picked out. The filly we chose MUST have a great disposition and conformation. If we are going to pay the money we want to pay for exactly what we want. The filly must also have a BIG hip, kind eye, baby doll head. One that will in the Halter class all the way to Pleasure and reigning. She must also have an excellent pedigree from proven parents. I know this is all a lot to ask and look for, but I'm sure there are some fillies out there some where that would fit what we are looking for. We want a WINNER and a partner all in one. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gundogs1969 (Dec 5, 2012)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> In today's market, unless the foal takes your breath away, I would not pay anywhere near $4K, especially not for a gelding.


 we want a filly. I would open the horizon to maybe a 2 or 3 year old, but she must be exactly what we are wanting. And we are wanting only a filly/young mare. No geldings!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

It is a lot to ask, but no doubt, that horse is out there somewhere for you. I would suggest though, considering a well started, 2 or 3 year old, or your daughter will be 10 years old, before she can even ride, anything younger.

Look through all the classifieds and websites. Don't be afraid to post pics and info here, of horses you find. Most of us will be brave enough to tell you our opinions. :wink:

Lizzie


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

Forgot to ask. Do you belong to the Nebraska Paint Horse Club? If not, join it. There should be many responsible breeders there, who will help you.

Lizzie


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## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

I was very specific about what I wanted when I chose my filly too. I wanted a black quarter horse filly. I wanted it to be about 2 years old, no younger and not older then 3. I wanted her to have great conformation, a big hip, a nice head and so on. Then a person contacted me about a black yearling filly, she was untouched and afraid of people. I said, I will have a look. I could not get close enough to get a good look at her legs and teeth and stuff, but I fell in love, not only with her colour, but with her attitude, even though I could not get that close to her. And again, I did not like that she was only a yearling, but she was a purebred also, but not registered. 

I decided to buy her (only paid $150 CAD) though. Later on I realized she did have a small conformational issue (not soundness issue) Her back hooves pointed outwords just a little. 

I am wanting to use her for halter, showmanship, western pleasure, trail riding, barrel racing, etc. But in halter, that small issue will dock her points. 

A trainer told me though, when she gets her hooves trimmed, it might straighten out though. But that is only a might.

So what I am trying to tell you is, look at all the things you can when buying a horse. But if everything is good and sound, go with your gut. If you think she is the right filly for you, buy her, if not, don't.


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## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

Double post


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## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

I cannot imagine a trainer not recommending against getting a youngster for a beginner 7 year old rider... Unless, of course, the trainer is thinking about all the money he or she is going to be making during all those years your daughter is NOT riding her purdy new filly.

Good luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ace80908 (Apr 21, 2011)

I just purchased a very nicely marked, nicely bred 3 year old that has four months under saddle. She will be shown APHA. She is slated to be my project while my other mare is bred. She is hopefully going to be my 7 year old's show mare, so I see some similarities.

That said, I understand I will be riding, training, and showing this 3 year old for the next several years while my daughters participation is limited to perhaps a leadline class or a halter/showmanship class this year, and walk/trot in the next few years. In the meantime, my daughter has a broke to death 20+ year old pony named George to ride and love on.

If you are going to get that perfect young filly, do so with the knowledge a 7 year old WILL NOT BE SAFE ON IT for many years. If you are willing to do the ground work and get that mare used to the show ring in the meantime, go for it ... but do it for you, not for your daughter. I am fully aware my 7 year old may want nothing to do with showing by the time she is old enough and the filly is mature enough for them to be a team.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

And give your daughter some room to change her mind. LOL! I went to a local breed auction to buy a bay, not much white, mare, in foal or not didn't matter. What I got was, Honey Boo Boo. Chestnut, Overo, HALTER mare in foal to a stallion I would not have picked for her. What can I say, price was definitely right and I felt she was the best horse there. SHRUGS!!!! I'll buy a bay next time........










You can't see it in the pic, but she has a humungous belly spot and several small ones, she's a full color reg'd APHA mare and you could hear the thud when I fell in love with her.


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

Actually, if the trainer is worth his/her salt, he/she would be the one to find THE perfect mount for your daughter and her riding capabilities at the moment. Children don't often have the patience to wait years to actually ride a horse and until a horse is trained, should never be allowed to handle it, unsupervised.

I forgot to ask in what discipline your daughter rides. I found a cute gelding near you on Craigslist. 

https://www.equinenow.com/equine/data/photos/640524_1.jpg

Too bad your daughter is dead-set on a mare and black and white. Why does she only want a mare? Found some show mares here..

Reisinger Farms - Producing Outstanding Pleasure Horses

Half sisters to the gelding. Hopefully, they did not inherit their sire's sickle hocks. Lots of interesting paints out there. I've never actually looked before. Interestingly, our Gypsy Horses can now be registered in the Paint Horse Association. Tons and Tons of black and whites in our breed. No frames though. 

Spend some searching time on google and you'll find tons in your area or close to it.

Lizzie


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Um which paint horse association? APHA will never allow gypsys into the registry.


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## gogaited (Oct 8, 2012)

Gundogs1969 said:


> I wish my daughter wouldn't be so set on NO blue eyes, but she is.  I have seen some very nice colts with blue eyes
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm with your daughter on this.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

FeatheredFeet said:


> Interestingly, our Gypsy Horses can now be registered in the Paint Horse Association.
> Lizzie


They can be registered int the American PINTO Horse Assoc, PtHA, not APHA.


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

Ah. You are probably correct. I had heard they were invited into another coloured registry and was thinking it was the APHA shows. 

Lizzie


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## Arab Mama (Jun 10, 2012)

Horsel02 said:


> I have a bald faced paint with blue eyes and both have the eye liner and I don't have a problem with his eyes.


Holy cow! He is stunning! 

Our pretty little Starry is a blue eyed beauty, but alas, no eyeliner so we have a major sunburn issue. That's why we turn out at night during the warm half of the year and bring them in during the day/sun hours.

Here's Starry:



















As you can see, she's blue in both eyes.


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## Gundogs1969 (Dec 5, 2012)

nikelodeon79 said:


> I cannot imagine a trainer not recommending against getting a youngster for a beginner 7 year old rider... Unless, of course, the trainer is thinking about all the money he or she is going to be making during all those years your daughter is NOT riding her purdy new filly.
> 
> Good luck.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I wanted to make clear that we haven't even asked our trainer to find us a filly. We wanted to find our own and if she turned out to be not what we wanted we have no one to blame but ourselves. And about finding a youngster instead of an older broke mare is simple. The joy of bonding and growing with each other. To where our daughter is young and a novice horseman, we want them to grow together and bond. I did it as a young child and it was some of the best memories I have as a child. All trial and error! But disposition and conformation is a MUST!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

If your daughter is able to ride other horses besides her own filly, and you find a nice conformed youngun that's perfect for you...Otherwise your daughter won't be able to even get on the filly for a good few years. I've only had my TB gelding for a year and I am so incredibly anxious to be able to get on him (he's coming 5, but retraining so I'm not riding him).


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Would she be willing to look at other colors? Such as reds or bays?


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## Gundogs1969 (Dec 5, 2012)

NdAppy said:


> Would she be willing to look at other colors? Such as reds or bays?


She has mentioned that she would take a loud colored sorrel. She wants loud colored and an eye catcher. Gotta love her determination. She wants a friend, a partner and a winner. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gundogs1969 (Dec 5, 2012)

Reno Bay said:


> If your daughter is able to ride other horses besides her own filly, and you find a nice conformed youngun that's perfect for you...Otherwise your daughter won't be able to even get on the filly for a good few years. I've only had my TB gelding for a year and I am so incredibly anxious to be able to get on him (he's coming 5, but retraining so I'm not riding him).


Our daughter is able to ride other horses at anytime. She just wants her own and one to raise herself
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cmarie (Dec 19, 2011)

You can look on dreamhorse.com, horseclicks.com, and sites like that and probably find what you are looking for if you are looking for under a 3 yr old you'll have more options than just foals. Personally for a 7 yr old child I would go either with a very trained older horse or a weanling.


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## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

Gundogs1969 said:


> She has mentioned that she would take a loud colored sorrel. She wants loud colored and an eye catcher. Gotta love her determination. She wants a friend, a partner and a winner.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Friend and partner you'll definitely get if they bond together well. A winner you may or may not get even with a great trainer. My trainer has winning dressage horses and a GP hopeful...but my horse...lol, he'll just be a low level competitor and maybe not even a winner. Definitely won't stop us from trying though ;p


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## Gundogs1969 (Dec 5, 2012)

Reno Bay said:


> Friend and partner you'll definitely get if they bond together well. A winner you may or may not get even with a great trainer. My trainer has winning dressage horses and a GP hopeful...but my horse...lol, he'll just be a low level competitor and maybe not even a winner. Definitely won't stop us from trying though ;p


Absolutely agreed. Partner and friend forever. Winning is just an added bonus. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

DreamHorse.com Horse ID: 1832505 - Absoloot Glitz N Glam

DreamHorse.com Horse ID: 1823900 - R Small Time Reward

Zippin IN High Cotton (cotton)


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Well, I hope you find what you are looking for. 
Personally, I wouldn't think of getting a child a weanling. Way too much potential risk, to both the foal and child. They have a short attention span I would fear a child getting bored rather quickly with a foal they can only lead around for 15 minutes at a time. 
Maybe you daughter is different but there is no way I wouldn't NOT want to ride. i was out for hours daily on my little mutt gelding. I know I always a cute baby but no way at seven - many years, tears, horses, and bank transactions later I earned my first foal I bred in 2007. Maybe I'm old school..
Best of luck, whichever you decide.
Also beware if you get overo to test for frame if future breeding is a possibilty. Breeding a frame positive mare to a frame positive stallion you have a 50% chance of producing a LWO foal which cannot survive. 
Not saying you are going to breed, but you never know.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Loud Frame yearling = GORGEOUS APHA BLACK AND WHITE SHOW MARE | Buy this Horse at Equine.com


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Double Post.


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## cmarie (Dec 19, 2011)

Here some more
LOUD BLACK OVERO FILLY for sale in Lauderdale, Alabama :: HorseClicks
Black Overo Filly Zips Chocolate Chip Bloodlines for sale in Pickens, Alabama :: HorseClicks
Super Flashy Black & White Filly for sale in Santa fe, New Mexico :: HorseClicks
Beautiful & Gentle, Well Trained Loud Colored APHA for sale in Umatilla, Oregon :: HorseClicks
4 Year Old Black Overo Mare for sale in Jefferson, Wisconsin :: HorseClicks


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## Arab Mama (Jun 10, 2012)

So I know nothing about breeding paints. What is "frame"?

Also, our mare does have chestnut around both eyes, but still sunburns. Does the no sunburn thing only apply if the color is dark, or only if it is "eyeliner"?

I don't think I would want to have a young horse for a child either. Training a young horse takes a lot of discipline. Young horses are very unpredictable, and it is hard to imagine a child being able to manage those kind of challenges. I agree with what another poster said about your daughter having to wait several years to ride her new best friend. I know many people start their horses at age 2, but that is really too young to start a horse and very often ends up creating unsound horses that injure easily. I have seen many other families make this same mistake - wanting child and foal to grow together and bond - and it has ended badly. 

My black Arab mare was actually sold to a novice woman and her no-horse-experience children, but the seller finally decided that a green horse was a poor choice for this family and placed her with us instead.

I hope you have success with whatever you decide.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Frame is what causes lethal white foals in homozygous form. It can present so minimal on a heterozygous (one gene copy) horse that there is nothing to see of a white pattern to as loud or louder in presentation to this horse - 










Breeding to frame positive (OLWS, LWO) horses gives you a 25% chance of a foal that will not live more than 72 hours due to an underdeveloped/incomplete digestive tract. If the foals are not humanely euthanized they die of severe colic like symptoms and pain.


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## Arab Mama (Jun 10, 2012)

Thank you. That is so horrible. On the bright side, I guess we have to be grateful that we have the ability to test for many of these things now.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Exactly. 


Gundogs, please so make sure that if you end up with a halter bred APHA horse that it tests as clear for HYPP.


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## Gundogs1969 (Dec 5, 2012)

NdAppy said:


> Exactly.
> 
> 
> Gundogs, please so make sure that if you end up with a halter bred APHA horse that it tests as clear for HYPP.


I for sure will. Thank you for the heads up. Impressive was a fine looking animal, but there were A LOT of genetics that people don't want that come from him. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gundogs1969 (Dec 5, 2012)

Arab Mama said:


> So I know nothing about breeding paints. What is "frame"?
> 
> Also, our mare does have chestnut around both eyes, but still sunburns. Does the no sunburn thing only apply if the color is dark, or only if it is "eyeliner"?
> 
> ...


Thanks for everyones concerns. But we have talked about a younger horse with our daughter and she is set on that. Believe me when I say we would not put our daugghter not the filly in any type of situation that would hurt either one of them. I was raised with several colts in my youger years and had no problems with the help of my parents.
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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Yep. Also, I would really look at more of the "using" type horses over getting a halter bred one. it would have more sound/usable conformation.


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

I second the usable idea. I'd hate for your little one to get stuck in one particular class because the horse is strictly a halter horse.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Too bad your daughter is so set against blue eyes and wants Loud. I know of the most ADORABLE blue eyed filly.


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## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

I guess I am confused as to why your seven year old daughter is getting to dictate so much about this purchase. You are presumably paying for the horse and are preparing to expend a lot of time and money into her show career. Plus, you are the adult -- the one in charge of making sure she doesn't break her neck.

If my mom and dad had offered to buy me an expensive show horse when I was a kid, I would have said, "THANK YOU" and waited happily for my horse. Sure, I might have said, "I really like paint horses," but "I must have a loud colored black & white overo filly without blue eyes?" What seven year old even THINKS of that? Methinks somebody might be living vicariously through daughter, here.

Have you told your trainer that you intend to buy a very young horse for your daughter?
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## Gundogs1969 (Dec 5, 2012)

nikelodeon79 said:


> I guess I am confused as to why your seven year old daughter is getting to dictate so much about this purchase. You are presumably paying for the horse and are preparing to expend a lot of time and money into her show career. Plus, you are the adult -- the one in charge of making sure she doesn't break her neck.
> 
> If my mom and dad had offered to buy me an expensive show horse when I was a kid, I would have said, "THANK YOU" and waited happily for my horse. Sure, I might have said, "I really like paint horses," but "I must have a loud colored black & white overo filly without blue eyes?" What seven year old even THINKS of that? Methinks somebody might be living vicariously through daughter, here.
> 
> ...


Lol! Really! Your unbelievable. I will do whatever my daughter wants and NO she's not just a spoiled little brat that gets her way. Your little comments probably should be kept to yourself.

Take care
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## Gundogs1969 (Dec 5, 2012)

NdAppy said:


> Too bad your daughter is so set against blue eyes and wants Loud. I know of the most ADORABLE blue eyed filly.



Please give detail and/or info
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## cmarie (Dec 19, 2011)

I got a weanling and a 18 month old colts for my daughters first horses and they did very well with them, both became bombproof by the age of 3 because of all the handling they got from the girls. Good luck to you on your search and I hope you find what your looking for.


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## Gundogs1969 (Dec 5, 2012)

cmarie said:


> I got a weanling and a 18 month old colts for my daughters first horses and they did very well with them, both became bombproof by the age of 3 because of all the handling they got from the girls. Good luck to you on your search and I hope you find what your looking for.


Thank you! Exactly what we are hoping for our daughter. I'm a firm believer in starting to socialize both the human and horse at a young age
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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

nikelodeon79 said:


> I guess I am confused as to why your seven year old daughter is getting to dictate so much about this purchase. You are presumably paying for the horse and are preparing to expend a lot of time and money into her show career. Plus, you are the adult -- the one in charge of making sure she doesn't break her neck.
> 
> If my mom and dad had offered to buy me an expensive show horse when I was a kid, I would have said, "THANK YOU" and waited happily for my horse. Sure, I might have said, "I really like paint horses," but "I must have a loud colored black & white overo filly without blue eyes?" What seven year old even THINKS of that? Methinks somebody might be living vicariously through daughter, here.
> 
> ...



I don't necessarily see this as the daughter dictating terms but more like her "wish list for the perfect horse". Kinda like writing a letter to Santa. 

Dear Santa, 

I want the next World Champion Black, Overo, Dark eyed filly and a wagon and an EZ Bake oven and a purple bicycle with a horn and a basket. 

Thank you, 

Sarah Jane Peabody

PS, I left carrots out for Rudolph and the gang. Enjoy your milk and cookies.

If you're going to spend the money on buying a kid a horse, why would you NOT buy what they want if they have a really defined preference? I certainly wouldn't buy a solid bay if the kid is wild for pattern.


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## CCH (Jan 23, 2011)

Gundogs1969 said:


> NdAppy said:
> 
> 
> > Too bad your daughter is so set against blue eyes and wants Loud. I know of the most ADORABLE blue eyed filly.
> ...


NdAppy probably means a horse that I have for sale.

Here is the link 2012 Foals to her sale's information. However, I don't think this would be the best fit as my preference is to market her to a cutting home where she would be shown.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Don't forget CCH you have a couple of other foals due this spring as well.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I don't necessarily see this as the daughter dictating terms but more like her "wish list for the perfect horse". Kinda like writing a letter to Santa.
> 
> Dear Santa,
> 
> ...


It's not the fact that the girl wants colour that is the problem. I would buy a coloured horse for my kid if that is what they wanted too. It's the whole "unstarted youngster" for a beginner 7 year old that is the irresponsible choice, leading readers to believe that it is not the parent making decisions, but the child. I am sorry, OP, but your child's safety is at risk, don't be so dismissive. Young children should NOT EVER be given a young horse to work with from scratch, this is just going to end in pain and heartache, and I sincerely hope the only pain is that which your daughter will feel when the horse doesn't turn out to be a "winner", and not the pain of broken bones that is also likely. YOU are the parent, YOU should be concerned enough about your child's welfare to listen to advice like this. Buying a youngster for a 7 year old is not just silly, it's dangerous.


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

I wasn't a young child when I was given my first horse. She was 2 and I was 15. I can't tell you how many times I was injured by her. I wasn't prepared enough to read her body language, especially since i'd only been around school horses, who'd been there done that.


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

Arab Mama said:


> Thank you. That is so horrible. On the bright side, I guess we have to be grateful that we have the ability to test for many of these things now.


And yet there are lethal white foals born every year - many to owners who just didn't see the point in spending a few bucks to test their horse/breed to a tested stallion


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

I really don't find much fault, in the little girl wanting a specific colour horse. Many little girls want a palomino or grey pony etc. Even as adults, many of us have our preferred colour.

However, I would like to see the parents VERY seriously consider the age of the horse they purchase. I personally think that the child will bond with an older horse, which she can actually feed, lead around and actually ride now. Difficult for adults to wait three years for a baby to begin training, let alone a little seven year old girl. Who knows, by the time she is ten years old, she might not even be into horses and want to take dancing lessons or become a cheer leader. 

If the parents do find the horse they are presently seeking, it will be an untrained, large and growing animal. It will be young and even if very well handled from birth, is likely to have its wild and silly moments. Not safe for little girls to be around and trying to bond with. One rear or silly kick and the little girl will very easily become frightened of the horse.

If it were me - and I have little granddaughters who are horsey, my aim would be at the youngest, an older, very quiet mare of maybe four years old and up. One who had maybe already been shown and was the been-everywhere, done everything type of girl. Quiet enough for a seven year old to ride and show now, with supervision. One whom she could go in the stall with to feed and not be dangerous or silly. One she could groom alone and spend lots of quiet time with. This is bonding. Bonding for a seven year old, is not a very young horse, which is likely to be unpredictable for some time to come, and even possibly dangerous for a little girl. 

Many of us who have been in horses for many years, have seen tragedies, when children are over-horsed. I won't call them accidents, because they were not. It was always a parent purchasing a completely unsuitable animal, for the child's age and level of experience, or the age of the horse.

To the OP. Your little girl is obviously loved dearly. Do her a favour and purchase the right horse. Her life is more important than the age groupd she thinks she wants now. Bring home that older, quiet mare, in the colour she wants and I guarantee she will love it.

Lizzie


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## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

Yes, exactly... it wasn't so much the color as the age... it was like a whole lotta things were being demanded and if the girl was my daughter, I would probably tell her, "We'll search for a really nice black and white paint but we will be getting one you can ride now, not five years down the road, so we won't be getting a baby."

Overo? Fine. I like a nice overo, myself. (Though I found what I wanted in a Tobiano package so I "settled" for that). 

No blue eyes? Okay. I really don't like blue eyes that much, either.

Must be a filly? Well, that's where I'd start wavering. I would be looking for a horse of either gender (honestly I'd probably look for a gelding because I'm personally a gelding person and feel they are the best for young kids). I would tell my daughter I'd try to find a suitable MARE, but if the perfect package came along in a gelding, we would seriously consider it.

Young? That's where I would absolutely put my foot down. I would likely concede on all other points (I'm the first to admit that my own kid is spoiled) but when it comes to personal safety and plain old common sense I simply will not budge. 1) I want my kid to be safe and 2) I don't want to hear my kid whine about not being able to ride Horsey for the next five or so years.

Young horses plus young riders CAN work, if the parents are experienced. Sure you can get a good trainer but how many parents are actually going to listen to that trainer in all aspects? Is the horse going to be boarded at the trainers and will all interaction between the child and the horse and the child be supervised by the trainer, and NOT the inexperienced parents? I don't know many great trainers that have that kind of time.

I recently bought two ponies, a weanling and a yearling. My son is one. But I've been riding/training for over 20 years and by the time my kid is interested in riding, the ponies will be of an age where he can actually ride them (after I've put a ton of training on them). If he happens to be one of those kids that are interested in riding at the age of 2 or 3, I have an old, gentle QH he can be led around on until the ponies are kid safe.

But, that's just me. I've seen WAY too many cases of kids getting seriously injured or even killed by green horses, because mommy and daddy decided they needed to "grow up together." A child can have just as strong of a bond with an older horse. In fact, the bond is often stronger, since the horse isn't trying to kill the child. My first pony was 8 and it wasn't long at all before he would follow me around like a dog. Best part? He was safe for me to ride from day one.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I guess I just don't see where their horse choice is any of my business. Dad sounds like he's been around horses and says he knows what he's doing. Not my place to tell him what to buy anymore, he's made it very clear what he's looking for and the he doesn't require my input. That is enough for me.


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## trainerunlimited (Jan 26, 2012)

I think there is a great bonding that can happen at an early age with a child and a young horse. I got my first baby at 10 years old. He was a yearling quarter horse who was halter broke and relatively gentle. I knew nothing of breaking horses back then, but the amount of time I spent around him, leading him around everywhere, dressing him up, and playing with him made him the gentlest horse around from the get-go. When he was 2, I just switched from leading him places to riding him bareback in a halter, since I didnt have a saddle. 

My point being that although being inexperienced and young, the OP's daughter will need supervision, you can get hurt at any age on a horse, whether you're experienced or green, and if the OP is going to supervise her daughter with the horse, I see no problem with that. 

Also, they wouldn't be starting completely from scratch, the OP is obviously willing to buy something of quality, which will most likely be halter broke and have the basic ground work down. The filly is also most likely going to be gentle already. Hardly a scared, reactive 8-9m/o $75 filly with a huge gash on her pastern, never handled before, like the one I just picked up, lol. 

Instead of being judgemental, perhaps we could help the OP find the perfect horse worthy of being the nice show prospect she is looking for and will wait to find.


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

I can see the situation working with a child a bit OLDER than OP's if all conditions are right. 1st being a horse that comes from a line of horses that noted to be good minded,has some training & experience under his/her belt.To me that would mean youngest i'd be looking at would be a long yearling that has had show experience.I see alot of the yearling being shown at our shows having great manners & mature minds.Youngsters like this with a youth, under "experienced" supervision I think could learn & mature together.I know one Stallion in our area that sires very youth & Ammy friendly horses,Many of those being black overos. Many those youngsters from him are shown as weanling in halter then as yearlings in Halter, IHT & LL.They have already experienced alot By the time they are ready to have their under saddle training!!Only big problem is It will still be a while before child would be old enough to be riding said horse,that few years I can see child wanting to ride her "horsie" long before either is ready. If the child has the patience to wait great! but I don't see many would:wink: Think OP should be buying the youngster for herself as something she & her daughter can learn together with ,let mom show & ride horse with daughter helping. You can better gauge things, having worked with horse yourself will give better preception{than just watching from outside horse work with a trainer} when you think daughter & said horse will be ready to take more activities together.


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