# Question of horse ownership (long story, but no idea what to think)



## Karmasmygirl (Sep 4, 2012)

My sister (17 yrs old) aquired a horse (18yr old quarter horse) about two years ago from a stable she was volunteering at. The owner of the horse is in the military and had left the horse in the care of the stable. (I don't know if she was paying board or what) The horse was being used for lessons and what not, and the owner wasn't very fond of that, so she asked her friend to keep this horse at her personal barn (where the owner was supposed to send down $$ to help cover feed, but never did). 

My sister followed where that horse went and started riding him at the personal barn with the owner of the barn. The owner (military lady) of the horse liked the idea of her horse only having one rider and she gave my sister full permission to ride him whenever she wanted.

After keeping him at the personal barn for the entire summer of 2011, my sister wanted to move him cause he was getting too beat up by the other horses and she had the opportunity to move him to a barn right down the road from us. She talked to the owner (all of there communication is done by email b/c the military lady is rarely in state due to being in the military). The owner agreed to let her move him so she moved him to the barn right by us strictly under my sisters care.

My sister has been paying for his feed, coggins, vet bills, farrier bills, and anything else strictly out of her own pocket. The military owner never sent down a dime to help cover expenses.

A couple of months ago the owner was in town and ASKED if it was okay if she could come visit him. My sister said yes and they had a very nice and civil meet and greet with the horse and owner and the owner left without any problems.

Within the past week, the horse has come down with a very serious ear infection. He's getting treatment and should be fine, but the owner is all of a sudden unhappy with the situation and is telling my sister she will be down in a few months to move the horse to a new home.

Does this horse even belong to the military owner anymore? The coggins are in my sisters name and everything. There was no bill of sale or any signed documents between them, but my sister is absolutely broken hearted that this horse (her first horse, if it can be considered hers) is going to be taken away from her after solely caring for him for over a year.

Is there anything we can do or does the horse still technically belong to the owner and she has the right to do whatever she wants?

We live in Florida if that makes any difference about laws.

If you're still reading, thank youn so much for your time.


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## HorseMom1025 (Jul 17, 2012)

I don't know the laws, but in my mind, your sister was essentially leasing the horse...without a formal lease agreement.

Unfortunately, in my opinion, the horse still belongs to the owner. Now, nothing really stops your sister from asking to buy the horse and get a bill of sale. If she presents to the owner a list of expenses she has paid and makes a reasonable offer, perhaps the owner can be persuaded to sell her the horse.

Otherwise, I would suggest your sister walk away and look for a new horse. This informal situation will only end up with someone getting hurt.

That's just my $0.02
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Karmasmygirl (Sep 4, 2012)

I agree with you. I just wasn't sure if there was something I was missing or not. Should she make her pay for all the bills she has had to deal with before returning the horse or do you think that is just a part of the "lease" ?


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## HorseMom1025 (Jul 17, 2012)

You know, I would consider the bills she paid part of the lease. In some lease agreements, all bills are the responsibility of the leasee.

That doesn't mean you sister cannot ask for reimbursement. She could make a case that she paid for the horse's board and food an that she would like the owner to reimburse her for the other costs.

She could also figure out what the horse would sell for, deduct what she has already paid and offer the owner the balance if any) in return for a bill of sale.

Or, she could just request a formal lease agreement to protect her rights and let everything continue as is (with a formal agreement in place).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Karmasmygirl (Sep 4, 2012)

I'll definitely let her know all of this. Thank you for reading, I was worried no one was going to respond to it since this is one of the less popular thread categories.

Thank you very much for your time and concern.


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## DimSum (Mar 28, 2012)

I haven't much to add except that I hope your sister comes out of this okay. At very least she has learned a sad lesson that getting thing in writing is essential!


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## Breella (May 26, 2012)

I'm sending positive thoughts for your sister. I have delt with "horse people" who just wanted someone to pay the hard bills for their horses before.


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## Karmasmygirl (Sep 4, 2012)

Thank you so much, I'll be sure to tell her.

Just to update, it's pretty set that the owner is picking him up in two weeks and there is nothing that we have found that we are able to do. 

Again, thank you for your thoughts. They are very much appreciated.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I'm sorry your sister is going to come out on the 'hurting' end of this deal, but unfortunately, that's pretty much how it was set up right from the start. 

She needs to find her own horse, buy it and board it and care for it herself. Then she won't have to worry about someone coming home and wanting to take the horse away from her. It's sad.


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## Spotted (Sep 19, 2012)

I too would ask for all the fees. if she kept any e-mails, keep them, because they can be used as legal documents. I would act like none of those bills were paid for and ask for the money otherwise the horse cannot leave the property. and /or offer to pay the bills if you could keep the horse and she can visit it. As far as Im concered you already own it. people who do not pay board fees ect. lose the horse. She has nothing on you about leasing, and thats her own fault! she should have a signed agreement to protect her horse. Don't let that horse leave until she pays!!


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## Cowboy Ringo (Sep 17, 2012)

To be honest, since the horse ownder didnt care enough to send money, id find a family friend with a farm and stash the horse there. Since there was no legal docs written up, your sister could say she has no idea what the ownder is talking about lol....oh BTW, im only saying this because of the crappy owner.


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## aspin231 (Mar 20, 2010)

One thing that nobody mentioned is the potential of legal abandonment of property.

I live in BC, Canada, so the laws here could be very different, but basically, if an animal is abandonned with someone (say a boarding facility), and the bills aren't paid for 3 months, the person the money is owed to has ownership of the animal. 

That might be something worth checking in to to see what the laws are in your neck of the woods.


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## ccbmmom (Jun 23, 2012)

We had something similar happen, just not with a horse, but with a cow. Our neighbors bought a little heifer (about 10 years ago) and didn't have any place to put her, so they asked if they could put her in our pasture with our cows and they would pay any expenses. Well, some time later, the little heifer got real sick and the owners had no interest in paying vet bills, so they said that we could have her if we took care of the bills. Now, jump to last summer. We had her bred and she had a gorgeous calf, but could not nurse, so I started bottle feeding. For some reason, the neighbors wife wanted to bottle feed the calf, but my kids wanted to do it. So, she started telling everyone that the calf, cow and another of her babies from three years ago were theirs, not ours and that they wanted them back. So, I wrote up an itemized list of expenses and presented it to her. I didn't ask her to pay, but just told her that THIS is what she owed. And, I said that I was feeling generous and didn't add the vet bills that started this whole thing. Of course, the cost was outrageous. And, the husband told her that they were not going to pay that just so that she could have a little calf to bottle feed! We haven't heard anything else since.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

You're getting some ridiculous and downright illegal advice here.

The horse owner DID NOT abandon the horse. Your sister has been in contact with her all through this thing, so if she wanted the horse for herself she should have addressed that with the owner prior to now.

The way I see it, your sister has had a free lease the last two years. It's customary for the lessee to pay all bills unless otherwise contractually noted. The fact that there was no written contract doesn't mean that the animal was abandoned. In fact, since your sister and the owner have been in contact, that stipulates agreement between them concerning the horse's care.

Your sister has no legal recourse to claim the animal as her own, and stealing the horse and hiding it somewhere else can not only get your sister in trouble, but also the landowner where she hides it. I can't believe someone would condone theft, just because they were too shortsighted to get a written lease agreement.


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

Cowboy Ringo said:


> To be honest, since the horse ownder didnt care enough to send money, id find a family friend with a farm and stash the horse there. Since there was no legal docs written up, your sister could say she has no idea what the ownder is talking about lol....oh BTW, im only saying this because of the crappy owner.


 OP, it doesn't seem like your sister would do anything like this, but I think I'd better put it out there that this is downright illegal and wrong. Do not take this advice.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

It's a shame for your sister, but it sounds like she has felt ownership over a horse that isn't hers. 

As others have said, it's basically been an informal free lease. 


Anyway to salvage the relationship with the owner, so your sister could still see and/or ride the horse?


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## aspin231 (Mar 20, 2010)

Speed Racer said:


> ...
> The horse owner DID NOT abandon the horse. Your sister has been in contact with her all through this thing, so if she wanted the horse for herself she should have addressed that with the owner prior to now.
> 
> ...


I was the one who suggested this, and I was just throwing it out there as a possibility... like I said the first time around, the laws could be very different where you are, OP, but where I am, not paying for your animal for 3 months without alternate arrangements made (which could have been made in your case, verbal ones) it's considered abandonment. All I'm saying is to check in to it; look up livestock laws in your area. Good luck.


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## sillyhorses (Sep 2, 2011)

Wow... I'd start by sending the owner notice that she owes your sister $XXXX.XX at this point before the horse can be taken. Establish that there is money owing for this horse's care and keeping. Laws vary by state regarding non-payment for care and keeping. However, as said above, your sister was in contact with this woman, and it seemed to be good communication. I'm sure there were some verbal agreements here that haven't been disclosed. As in, perhaps they had an agreement to free-lease the horse to your sister, which could have been the owner's understanding? Hmm...


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## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

I tend to agree with some of the others. There was never a written agreement/contract so the horse belongs to the woman. I don't know how it works sending money to places while you're deployed...she very well could have been planning to pay the total boarding fee when she came home. Your sister paid all the expenses of her own free will. As has been noted, in most leases it is common that the responsibility of animal costs falls on the leasee (the person "borrowing" the horse). The owner doesn't owe her anything except maybe a "thank you for taking care of my horse."


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## ladygodiva1228 (Sep 5, 2012)

Karmasmygirl said:


> My sister (17 yrs old) aquired a horse (18yr old quarter horse) about two years ago from a stable she was volunteering at. The owner of the horse is in the military and had left the horse in the care of the stable. (I don't know if she was paying board or what) The horse was being used for lessons and what not, and the owner wasn't very fond of that, so she asked her friend to keep this horse at her personal barn (*where the owner was supposed to send down $$ to help cover feed, but never did). *
> 
> My sister followed where that horse went and started riding him at the personal barn with the owner of the barn. The owner (military lady) of the horse liked the idea of her horse only having one rider and she gave my sister full permission to ride him whenever she wanted.
> 
> ...


 
I have to ask what does the e-mails say? Did they mention anything about who was to pay for the horse care? Was the owner going to send money to your sister?


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## Roperchick (Feb 1, 2010)

i would just have your sister talk to the service member and see if an arrangement can be made...she basically just had a free lease.

if there was never an agreement that your sister could have the horse to own then its not her horse.
best thing to do now is contact the lady who owns the horse and see if your sister can lease him still or buy him from her or something.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

She could try asking for reimbursement but may get told Nobody asked her to spend money on the horse. In Ontario the moment board is overdue the stable owner has an automatic lien on the horse. A notice must be published in a local newpaper naming the owner and amount of debt at time of publication. If no response the horse can then be sold at public auction. It cannot be sold privately. The BO is entitled to reasonable costs plus board owing and the owner gets the remainder. So the Barn Owner would become the new owner, not your sister. Most provinces and states have similar laws. Ours is under the Innkeepers Act. Some are under the Warehouseman's Lien because the horse is being stored at the stable.


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## peppersgirl (Aug 24, 2012)

In Kansas, you cannot hold a horse because someone isn't paying you. You can file for abandonment after 10 days of non payment (there has to be a contract) AFTER a certified letter has been mailed and shown to have been recieved, but not answered. Google your states horse laws.

I agree that this sounds like she was free leasing, and there had been plenty of contact between owner and your sister. She could try Itemizing costs and what not but with no formal contract- I think your sis is SOL> 


ALSO- Im married to a service member. If this chick is still keeping a horse stateside, that kinda means she has plans to come home at some point...BUT the military pretty much decides when and to where you go and for how long. I hope she's just overseas on a PCS as apposed to a deployment, because most people DONT WANT TO BE DEPLOYED> so shame on the poster who called her a crappy owner and suggested hiding the horse- your a winner.


Oh and one more thing, Military members get free legal counsel, so I dont really suggest fighting this, as it wont cost her a thing


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Actually, military lawyers normally will NOT handle cases like this. They are often not licensed to practice law in the local state, so they can only handle federal matters and certain other things like wills. At least, that is what a military lawyer told me.

As of a year ago, in Arizona, the state bar had a phone number you could call to ask for legal advice. You explain the problem, then a $35 payment (credit card over the phone) buys you 30 minutes face-to-face with a lawyer who specializes in your problem. You might see if your state has something like this. Legal advice over the Internet is scary. If you have money already spent, spend a bit more and talk to a licensed lawyer...


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## peppersgirl (Aug 24, 2012)

bsms said:


> Actually, military lawyers normally will NOT handle cases like this. They are often not licensed to practice law in the local state, so they can only handle federal matters and certain other things like wills. At least, that is what a military lawyer told me.
> 
> As of a year ago, in Arizona, the state bar had a phone number you could call to ask for legal advice. You explain the problem, then a $35 payment (credit card over the phone) buys you 30 minutes face-to-face with a lawyer who specializes in your problem. You might see if your state has something like this. Legal advice over the Internet is scary. If you have money already spent, spend a bit more and talk to a licensed lawyer...


If you say so. Around here (army area) they use local civi lawyers hired into on post positions... same thing with doctors, dentists, vets ect. sure there may be some army educated, but they definetly have a civilian work force as well. You would be surprised at some of the crap a soldier can get himself into on the local level...so they have to have people educated in local matters.


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## peppersgirl (Aug 24, 2012)

not to say that other branches aren't different... this is just what I see on an army base.


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