# Horse Turned Nasty, Trainer Fed Up



## kathryn (Jan 16, 2009)

I have had my lease horse for 9 months now, I have three left. My trainer is so sick of him she wants me to send him back early. Ever since this year, he has just been such a brat. A few weeks ago, he kicked me for no discernible reason. My trainer saw it happen, she said nothing spooked him she could tell he just laid his ears back and nailed me right in the knee. 

I took two weeks off, during which other riders at my barn hacked him, and now basically everyone refuses to hack him anymore since he has been so bad. It is to the point that I get congratulated for being "brave" for riding my own horse, people tell me things like "I couldn't even watch" because he bucks so hard. He has started dirty stopping and crazily over jumping when I MAKE him go over the jumps. Just cantering around you never know when he will just kick out for no reason, he has put holes in the arena walls, and he makes me so nervous riding with others, that he will randomly kick to show his displeasure at something and hit a person or horse or even hit something that hurts himself. 

On the ground he snaps and threatens to kick, and like I said, a few weeks ago he actually did kick me. We had the vet come out a few weeks ago who said he had some skin soreness, and gave him the week off and medication, but he has become worse. The vet is coming back again to look at him again tomorrow, but my trainer thinks that unless the vet finds some miracle fix for his attitude (which we thought the skin soreness explained it all) she is over him. I only have three months left on the lease and she thinks he has become a danger.

Thoughts? This is "my" first horse and the whole situation is just really bumming me out.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

I can only make guesses as to why this is happening, but those don't really matter. I can't imagine what "skin soreness" is!

If the more experienced horse people that _you have available to help you_ can not handle him and say he is a danger to you, then I hope you end the lease early and find something suitable. 

I always recommend something older and very calm for first horses.


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## kathryn (Jan 16, 2009)

Note I forgot to add:
Him being a grouch isn't new, its just to this extent. In all the 9 months I have had him so far, he has maybe kicked out twice in the first six months when I kept stopping him from swapping to his favorite lead. Today in my lesson, he kicked the wall 6 times, and has been behaving similarly for the last few months. On the ground, he would sometimes lay his ears, but never actually kick or bite like he does now. And he never ever used to buck or dirty stop.

Like my trainer used to love him and used to brag about how lucky we were to have him and now she doesn't even want to deal with him.


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## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

Ulcers? 
Saddle fit?
CTJ moment?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kathryn (Jan 16, 2009)

He has had ulcers before and he showed symptoms with his eating that he has not been showing anymore. For saddle fit, it is the same saddle I have been using and I use a halfback pad. Other people have ridden him in their saddles I believe but they have also used lots of padding because he has rather high withers. 

What is CTJ movement?


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## Thunderspark (Oct 17, 2012)

sounds like he needs a good refresher on respect........I would do ground work with him, get him listening to you and paying attention to you. When he's misbehaving he's not paying attention to you at all but thinking about what he's doing!


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## kathryn (Jan 16, 2009)

I'm honestly not even sure what I am asking here, its kind of a half-vent half-what should I do half-what could be wrong? Like I said, I am just kind of bummed.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Is he arena sour? That can bring on this behaviour. Horses do get bored with going around and around like a carousel. They need to be challenged. I can tell you this if a horse started bucking with me he'd feel the sting of the riding crop behind my leg with each buck. They usually get the message after the first whack that you don't tolerate this behaviour. Put a knotted halter on him or the chain over his nose and any time he pins his ears while you are grooming, back him up hard. keep the crop handy and slap his chest. Do this outside the barn so there's lots of room. Let him think you plan on murdering him. Don't hold him under the chin but allow lots of lead in case he rears. When you've gone a good 30' or more, just walk him back and start again. No petting, no talking. Do it again if necessary only farther this time. You need to be strict with him and let him get away with nothing, no excuses.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

DancingArabian said:


> Ulcers?
> Saddle fit?
> CTJ moment?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree with this. sounds like him saying, "I've been hurting for a long time and I've HAD IT!"


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Age of the horse, what's his history? How did you end up leasing him? What issues did you know he had before you leased him? It sounds like a pain issue to me too.


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## kathryn (Jan 16, 2009)

tinyliny said:


> I agree with this. sounds like him saying, "I've been hurting for a long time and I've HAD IT!"


I didn't think it would be either of those things, he had ulcers when he first came from his owners and barely ate a thing, since we have had him he has gained a ton of weight and scarfs down his food after being treated with Gastrogard, he still wolfs down his food now and has not gone back to picking at his food like he did before. As for saddle fit, I never ride him without my squishy halfback pad, and I am pretty sure anyone who would hack him would also use something similar. 

Hopefully if it is one of those things, the vet will notice tomorrow and we will know, I just suspect that it is not.

He is 9 and has a lot of skin issues, like he constantly gets rain rot and breaks out in hives when he gets stressed, for example when he first game to my barn. As I said above, he also had ulcers when he came but we have since treated them. He almost looks like a completely different horse then when we got him, we had a guest at our barn the other day who knew him from his old barn and could hardly recognize him. He has gained a ton of weight and muscle since we have had him.


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## kiwi79 (Nov 11, 2011)

I was thinking a pain issue, have you had his back checked? Have you spoken to his owners about this behaviour to see what their take is on it?
It could be that if he was skinny/unwell when you got him then he wasn't feeling so good and seemed a much quieter horse. Some horses can seem like completely different animals once they get some condition on them.


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

For one, squishy saddle pads don't help if the saddle is ill fitting. Having had ridden in a saddle for a long time doesn't make the saddle better fitting as well. Also, the way he shows he's hurting because of ulcers may change over life. 

So - 
* Get him and his saddle checked out by a professional saddle fitter. Not a friend "who knows saddles", not your trainer, but a saddle fitter.
* Get him thoroughly checked by a vet. Do a gastroscopy.
*Get a chiro check his back.

In most cases, such misbehavior is caused by pain or by extreme psychological stress. Then there's poor training, which may also be inappropriate to the horses character (for example, training a sensitive horse with overly dominant methods, causing aggression in response). You should rule out all the possible reasons before deciding that the horse "is just like that". They have no motivation to be like that just because.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Saranda said:


> For one, squishy saddle pads don't help if the saddle is ill fitting. Having had ridden in a saddle for a long time doesn't make the saddle better fitting as well. Also, the way he shows he's hurting because of ulcers may change over life.
> 
> So -
> * Get him and his saddle checked out by a professional saddle fitter. Not a friend "who knows saddles", not your trainer, but a saddle fitter.
> ...


Personally, I would not spend the time, $$ or effort on a LEASED horse. You only have 3 months left. I would be talking to the owners and if they are not willing to pay some of the vet and chiro bills to get this right, I would cut my losses and end the lease. I would also be really glad you did not buy him. It could be so many things, but the bottom line is he really is not your horse, so what you can really do is somewhat limited.


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## DimSum (Mar 28, 2012)

What *Frankenbeans *said-this horse is a lease and frankly I'd be thinking about ending it early for your own safety.


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

Oh, I somehow missed the fact that the horse is leased. My bad, thanks for pointing it out! In this case, I agree - it's not worth the effort and these problems are something that the owner of the horse should deal with. I'd end the lease as well!


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## kathryn (Jan 16, 2009)

Thanks for the responses guys. My trainer was thinking maybe its hormone issues? Yesterday during my lesson, he seemed so happy during the trotting portion of my flat warm up, ears pricked and willing to extend and collect as I asked and keep his pace with no encouragement. Everyone was commenting about what a good mood he seemed to be in. Then as soon as I asked him to canter, it was like a switch was flipped. His whole body tenses, he counterbends and comes off the rail, tosses his head and helicopters his tail when you ask him to canter. When you ask more firmly, either with more leg or a crop is when he gets seriously ****y and starts kicking out. Apparently he did this a lot at his old barn and it was actually surprising that he didn't do it here. We just assumed he had stopped doing it here because he was treated better, but the way he is treated has not changed. 

Either way, the vet is coming to see him today and my trainer is going to call me when the vet leaves. Like I said I am just bummed, this horse has taught me so much, I've gone from missing almost every distance over like cross rails to winning shows at 2'6" and I care about him so much, but I can feel him starting to mess with my confidence, especially on the ground since he kicked me. It is just such a bummer if the lease would end early like this.


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

> Then as soon as I asked him to canter, it was like a switch was flipped. His whole body tenses, he counterbends and comes off the rail, tosses his head and helicopters his tail when you ask him to canter. When you ask more firmly, either with more leg or a crop is when he gets seriously ****y and starts kicking out.


This really, really sounds like a classic sign of pain. Do you ride with a full seat in canter? If so, the canter movement makes you sink deeper in the saddle and it is more painful to move if the horse is in pain due to back or saddle problems. It sometimes can go unnoticed, if the rider rises at the trot and thus relieves the back a little bit. I've had a dangerous first-hand experience with this, as one day my horse was perfectly normal at the trot, if not a little more energetic than usual, but exploded into gallop and a hysterical bronc as soon as I cued for a canter. Turned out, the tree of my saddle had cracked that day and caused him pain.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

I really think a chiro could be of more help at this point, but then, I have the best one in the world, and she is more astute than most vets. I honestly don't know one around where you are. I really think it sounds like a pain issue, but that is just my initial thought. A good chiro would also be cheaper than the vet, IF you still want to continue throwing $$ at something that is not yours. I also have no idea where in MD you are, but Damascus Equine is a fabulous group with some really excellent practitioners of varied specialties who have helped me sort some pretty difficult issues in the past. Just a thought.

Interesting point, Saranda-I had one start stopping dirty years ago, and it was from someone ELSE (not me) riding him in a saddle with a broken tree that was sticking into him when he jumped.


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## kathryn (Jan 16, 2009)

Saranda said:


> This really, really sounds like a classic sign of pain. Do you ride with a full seat in canter? If so, the canter movement makes you sink deeper in the saddle and it is more painful to move if the horse is in pain due to back or saddle problems. It sometimes can go unnoticed, if the rider rises at the trot and thus relieves the back a little bit. I've had a dangerous first-hand experience with this, as one day my horse was perfectly normal at the trot, if not a little more energetic than usual, but exploded into gallop and a hysterical bronc as soon as I cued for a canter. Turned out, the tree of my saddle had cracked that day and caused him pain.


Oh really. Okay, I will definitely look into that.

And ugh I really hope there is nothing wrong with my saddle such as a broken tree, I just got it around the same time I got him aka less than a year ago. Guess that is something to look into as well.

Editing this post to death:
If it is back soreness, that is something the vet will be able to tell today, correct? Like I said the vet just checked him out about a week or two ago and determined that he had a skin infection, but that should be healed by now.


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

Depends entirely on how good is the vet, but he should be able to notice that. Good chiros, however, are better at seeing back issues, at least it's true where I come from.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I am beginning to think hoof pain. Horses can tolerate pain to a point and trotting is less painful than cantering because it can shift more weight to the hindquarters. At the canter there is that rolling motion whereby it's weight is on the forehand. Hoof soreness can be mistaken for saddle pain because of the path of the nerves. The pain will travel up thro the shoulders to the poll then back thro the saddle area to the hind hooves. Have you switched farriers? When the vet comes have him use the hoof testers. These indicate sensitivity. Have the hoof angles changed from when you and he were jumping?


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## Corazon Lock (Dec 26, 2011)

My horse Casper was no where near as naughty as your horse, but he did do similar things: kicking out at the canter, swapping leads, stopping dirty, and getting fussy when asked to canter.

Turns out he had navicular. I think this is a pain problem.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

There is a variety of troubleshooting that can go on, and if you owned the horse, it might be worthwhile.

However, if the experienced folks on the ground, who have watched this horse for months in person, are saying, "This is getting dangerous, get out!"...then my vote would be, "Get out!"

Horses can be fun, but they can also be dangerous. If it was just the horse doesn't like to canter and acts up, that is one thing. Once it reaches this point:

"_A few weeks ago, he kicked me for no discernible reason. My trainer saw it happen, she said nothing spooked him she could tell he just laid his ears back and nailed me right in the knee._"

my patience would end. I bought a horse while not knowing how to ride, she was way too much horse for me, and we're still together over 5 years later - but Mia, for all of her faults and mine, doesn't have a mean bone in her body. A kick to the knee can cripple a person for life. If an experienced person watched and said it was deliberate and malicious, then I would be done with the horse. Period.

The owner can troubleshoot the problems if she wishes. I wouldn't, but she can do as she wants. But for someone leasing, if the people around say it has become dangerous...I'd listen. They've seen the horse.


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## kathryn (Jan 16, 2009)

I was very shocked when he kicked me, and it really shook my confidence both on the ground and in saddle. I was doing the tail strap on his second blanket, so I had been in the process of blanketing him for several minutes, so I didn't take him by surprise. Like I said, we have no idea why he did that, there was no reason anyone who was around could tell. 

As for health issues, I sent my trainer a big long list of things to ask the vet to check for so we can see what he says to her about him. Ugh.


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

I think it might be a combination of factors, pain, spoiled and possibly ring sour. That said if it was a horse you owned I would suggest looking into things deeply. The problem is that whatever is wrong is probably going to be expensive to fix. The cheapest solution is going to be a new saddle or ulcers which are still a few hundred dollars.

You lease this horse you don't own it I would discuss with the owner and let them know what is going on. They may be upset if they are returned a horse that is in the state this horse is in. I would get the owner on board with whatever is done. That way you don't end up with harsh feelings when you do return the horse. 

How did you react after he kicked you?


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## kathryn (Jan 16, 2009)

He is definitely in much better condition now, my trainer's friend used to work at his owners barn and she said he was a nightmare even more so than he is now, like muzzled and constantly kicking out, not to mention very underweight and undermuscled with ulcers. He is a very hard keeper and he definitely did not get individualized attention, he came from a breeding farm where as a gelding he wasn't that important but they were unable to sell him because of his eye (I forgot to mention he was born without a left eye and wears a prosthetic but is very capable since he was born like that and knows nothing else). We are always very aware of this however and make sure to do everything possible from his sighted side, something I don't think was done at his old barn because he was very very head shy and nervous when you approached him and now he is not.

After he kicked me I didn't really do anything but my trainer disciplined him.


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## speedy da fish (May 7, 2009)

kathryn said:


> I kept stopping him from swapping to his favorite lead.


This triggered alarm bells in me. I am thinking that if he has a 'favourite lead' then it possibly is a back pain issue that is causing his unbalance.

Everything else has been said by a number of people. I think problems as severe as this (that are not easily fixed) have a number of factors tied in. Clever horses can become barn/ school sour when they become bored with work. Pain can obviously deter them from work and the only way a horse can let you know he's in pain is to act up. 

About the skin sensitivity thing, my horse get grouchy when he is molting as he gets itchy in places like where his girth goes etc. So just make sure that it's good and clean in his nooks and crannies. It can make the world of difference to a sensitive horse.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

I would definitely get him checked by the vet, and potentially have him seen by a chiro.

That said, it interests me that he is acting this way both in saddle and on the ground. I think it could be something else (maybe hormonal?). Anyway, let's wait to see what the vet says.

Also, I have to agree with what others have said... this seems like a lot of trouble for a horse that isn't even yours. And a little dangerous, too.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

Being as how the poor guy has a blind eye, I wouldn't include the fact that he kicked you with his other difficulties. I once had a mare that had no visual impairment, and she would kick anything moving that "popped up" behind her. She had no other "training" difficulties and was one heck of a horse, but had she not have been I would have kept her anyway knowing that "characteristic" could doom her. 

As many others have said, since he is leased I wouldn't get too wrapped around the axel with his troubles, but if I were I would get a new pair of knowledgeable eyes on the ground to access his behavior. I hope it works out for the fellow and he does end up with someone as willing to "get to the bottom of it" as you seem to be, I can't help but feel a bit sorry for him from your posts.


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## kathryn (Jan 16, 2009)

Ugh I feel sorry for him too which is why I feel so guilty but I am a college kid with a part time desk job who funds this all myself I can't afford to like rescue horses that also put me in danger :/ ugh this whole situation is very upsetting, we have spent the last 9 months taking such special care of him and for this to be how it is all turning out is heart breaking for me


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

If you need to send him back do that, he's not your horse not your problem. At the same time I agree it sounds like a pain thing.


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## kathryn (Jan 16, 2009)

So my trainer just called me, she said the vet still thinks it is his skin irritation, she said that he said there are a lot of really sensitive spots on his back and he keeps flicking his skin if you touch him at all. The vet put him on Dex(?) and I am going to ride him in my lesson tomorrow and see how he is, she said if that doesn't help then he will go on anti-inflammatories. So hopefully that will help!


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

kathryn said:


> So my trainer just called me, she said the vet still thinks it is his skin irritation, she said that he said there are a lot of really sensitive spots on his back and he keeps flicking his skin if you touch him at all. The vet put him on Dex(?) and I am going to ride him in my lesson tomorrow and see how he is, she said if that doesn't help then he will go on anti-inflammatories. So hopefully that will help!


And if those 2 simple and relatively inexpensive fixes don't work, are you prepared to draw the line? I'm thinking this horse has been in pain for a WHILE and is just getting fed up with it, base on your description of his behaviour before you got him.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

I dont think its skin issues. sounds like a bad saddle fit and a sore back. My mare puts up with alot of pain (I was unaware) from ill fitting saddles. she will tell me by head tossing. he could just be fed up with pain.


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## AFull99 (Feb 21, 2014)

this is screaming pain issue, to me. you need to have the vet and a chiropractor out to watch in on the ground and under saddle. maybe even an equine massage specialist. i know he's a leased horse, but who knows if the owners will actually follow up on the needs of the horse.


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## ILoveMyThoroughbredSmokey (Jan 15, 2014)

I hope the treatments work for him! poor guy. Maybe he will have a better attitude when it starts working.


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## ILoveMyThoroughbredSmokey (Jan 15, 2014)

i would also agree with the chiropractor with addition to the skin treatments. It can make a big difference in a horse. My first horse, Lottie was broke really hard way to fast right when she turned two, but she wouldn't jog for them. so eventually they decided to sell cause they thought she was worthless if she couldn't jog. well i bought her few months before she turned 3. Well it would cause her discomfort whenever i tried to tell her too jog. well i got the chiropractor out, and he said that her back was really messed up, and that he could have bet that it was because they were so harsh with their training and at so young. well after seeing the chiropractor twice, when i rode her for the first time after getting it done, she was able to do an amazing jog. so i would definitely look into a chiropractor.


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## Shropshirerosie (Jan 24, 2012)

I assume that your lease gives you the right to talk to the vet direct? If you are paying the vet bills then I hope so 

I suggest you call the vet and ask exactly what he thinks it might be, ask what the medication is and how he thinks it will act / how long it should take to see the benefits.

I _think_ that 'Dex' is probably a steroid and the vet is trying to treat some kind of allergic reaction. It would be great if a quick and easy solution is found, but as long as you remain in the dark as to what is really going on, the harder it is for you.

I feel sorry for the horse, he does appear to have been in discomfort for some considerable time - but this is the benefit of having a lease; you can give it up early if you want.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Horses with ulcers can react this way.


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

If you were the owner, I'd strongly suggest to ask for the opinion of another vet. The horse sounds in a much different pain than that from a skin condition.


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## Stillstandin (Nov 10, 2009)

Dex is short for Dexamethasone which is a steroid used to manage inflammatory conditions. It is commonly used to treat allergic reactions. But I was told that it should not be used on horses with a history of ulcers...and it can increase the risk of laminitis. It also supresses the immune system. 
IMO I would get a chiro out to look at this horse, it sounds like there may be way more going on than just a skin condition.


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## SullysRider (Feb 11, 2012)

Agree with the others, this sounds like *way* more than a skin issue. I would be talking to the owners ASAP. They need to be included in this considering they own the horse. To me it sounds like poor saddle fit, his back being sore and things possibly being out, and ulcers. What is his management like?

I own a horse that came to me aggressive, so I have first hand experience with it. And honestly this all sounds like pain. Horses are stoic about pain, but there are signs and they can only take so much.


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

What is his skin like? Does he even in the best of health have sensitive skin? I ask because I have a mare who has sensitive skin and when she has needed a skin treatment she was not shy about the fact that she did not like the treatment. Dex can help but its a bandaid. Finding out the cause of the skin irritation is the more important thing. I also think that some of this has a behavioral basis. Is this horse improved since you got it or has his behavior disintegrated.


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## kathryn (Jan 16, 2009)

rookie said:


> What is his skin like? Does he even in the best of health have sensitive skin? I ask because I have a mare who has sensitive skin and when she has needed a skin treatment she was not shy about the fact that she did not like the treatment. Dex can help but its a bandaid. Finding out the cause of the skin irritation is the more important thing. I also think that some of this has a behavioral basis. Is this horse improved since you got it or has his behavior disintegrated.


He has always had really nasty skin, for the first month or so I had him he had hives constantly, he gets awful rain rot that oozes and pusses and requires shots of antibiotics. The whole summer after I got him he was half bald. Which is why I am a little more willing to believe the vet because I have seen first hand how awful his skin gets and how often this has been an issue for him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

If he is so uncomfortable because of his skin, I would find it unethical to ride him (the same applies to riding any horse with any painful ailment). I think you'd be better off if you found a more suitable mount and encouraged his owners to concentrate on healing him.


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## Shropshirerosie (Jan 24, 2012)

kathryn said:


> He has always had really nasty skin, for the first month or so I had him he had hives constantly, he gets awful rain rot that oozes and pusses and requires shots of antibiotics. The whole summer after I got him he was half bald. Which is why I am a little more willing to believe the vet because I have seen first hand how awful his skin gets and how often this has been an issue for him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're paying for a lease horse that came with these conditions? :shock:

My old mare was allergic to grass (long story, don't ask) and when she had it _bad_ she was a total baggage. Just like us, when she was itching to hell and back she was massively less tolerant of all and any other pains. 

This horse sounds like he needs a lot of TLC and consistent vet treatment to get to the bottom of this problems.


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## OliviaMyee (Jul 31, 2012)

I would start looking at a new horse, and dont look back.


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

okay, so to me and I am not a vet and I have never seen this horse. It sounds like he has some sort of allergy. Which should be addressed before any riding is undertaken. The problem is that dex is a bandaid and may "fix" the problem but like any other steroid it has its problems. Allergy testing is expensive and treatment is even more costly. It sounds like this horse is a hot house flower. He needs special treatment and even with special treatment is a challenge to ride. It almost sounds like he needs the special home to care for his skin and a very low stress i.e. no riding home. So, he needs to be a heavily medicated and expensive pasture puff. 

So OP sell me on his positives. What makes him a great lease horse? Other than that you feel bad for him what makes you feel like you should keep him? There are loads of horses in bad situations who are also super sweet and talented. You can "rescue" one of them and still have a nice horse. You are a student and horse are expensive, are you getting your money's worth out of this horse?


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## kathryn (Jan 16, 2009)

I am not planning to renew the lease, I am going to take a few months off after my lease ends to save up money. My trainer has already been mentioning who of her horses she wants me to ride and show while I am doing this. 

He definitely has been more than I bargained for in the health and handling department, but I couldn't have asked for a better horse to teach me. Like I said, he has always been a tool on the ground, but until recently (which is why it was such a red flag) he has always been an absolute angel under saddle. He is so honest and actually a really nice horse. He is a great mover and a fabulous jumper, many shows I have been to I have been asked if he is mine and for sale, even in spite of his eye. He was such a prospect that his owner was willing to spend $20,000 on prosthetic eyes so he can show without it being an obvious lameness that could get marked against him, rather than just sewing it shut. Like I said, when I first got him I was jumping up his neck at crossrails, missing probably 2/3 of my distances, and just basically being a mess. He took such good care of me during the last 9 months and taught me so so much. He took such good care of me and never got angry at my mistakes, which allowed me to improve and stop making them. No matter what ugly set up I gave him he always had my back, which allowed me to get my business together and stop making him work so hard. He has definitely exponentially improved my riding. My trainer does a lot of business with his owner/breeder, training and selling his younger ones, and she had always seen him around and thought him a diamond in the rough. Like I said he has never been a perfectly behaved horse, but he was always exceptional when you were riding him. 

That being said, I still don't intend to redo the lease. But I hope that helps explain some of my conflicting feelings.


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## Janskee (Nov 16, 2013)

Wow, it sounds like you've been through a lot with this horse. My TB has sensitive skin and it shows when it is buggy in the summer and he doesn't like being brushed so I can understand that a skin issue could cause a lot of irritation to a horse. However, if the horse has gained a lot of weight then I would suspect the saddle no longer fits properly and is pinching. This often shows up as pain at the canter. I know he's not your horse and probably not worth spending the money on getting a professional saddle fitter out and a new saddle, but it sounds like this could be the issue.


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

Okay OP now I kinda see where you are coming from. I still think that unfortunately it would be easier to find another than to sink money and time into this one. Particularly when at the end of the day the owner can take him back.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

it could be an autoimmune disease other than allergies. Maybe the horse being blind has gotten to the point he does not feel safe while being ridden. If he is only partially blind he may see shadows or something or hear something, thinking something is behind him and after him.
My opinion is this poor guy needs a home to be a pet for the rest of his days.
I have just recently put down a horse that was going blind, he had severe cataracts, and he was not safe to lead , even in the pen he would panic . He started loosing weight and would twitch while just standing .


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## redhorse86 (Nov 18, 2012)

Has the vet pulled blood and checked for Lyme disease? This can totally make any horse act up. I agree it sounds like he is in pain and trying to tell you that.


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## kathryn (Jan 16, 2009)

He is not going blind, he is literally missing an eyeball. It's gross. I put the prosthetic in the hole. So it's definitely not shadows or anything, he really has never had any amount of sight on that side. 

So the vet thinks he is allergic to mud and now he will get arena turnout if it's rainy. He was actually back to his old self today after the Dex. He was even a little fresh as if he hadn't been ridden for a while, even though he has, which I attributed to him finally feeling better. It was a huge relief today, he didn't kick out at all, dirty stop, or any of the things he has done lately. He didn't even put his ears back at anything. My trainer did notice him practically knocking the fence over rubbing on it before the vet came, but today he wasn't doing that. 

I'm sure this is not all of his issues, but I at least feel about 10000 times better now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

O/T but do you just use the prosthetic for showing/public stuff? And it just stays in on its own? lol not trying to be icky just wondering what its like.


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## kathryn (Jan 16, 2009)

Yogiwick said:


> O/T but do you just use the prosthetic for showing/public stuff? And it just stays in on its own? lol not trying to be icky just wondering what its like.


Haha it's pretty icky so I will private message you and tell you whatever you wanna know without subjecting squeamish people haha. If anyone else is interested lemme know! I find it very interesting once I got over the ick factor.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ILoveMyThoroughbredSmokey (Jan 15, 2014)

I am so glad he feels better! I hope he continues to improve. can you send me a message explaining the eyeball? I am very curious! can you post pics of your boy? love seeing horsey pics


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## Stan (Aug 25, 2011)

Arriving at the tail end of the conversation you have dealt with a lot.
On occasion I have allowed others to ride my horse (Not often) and they turn up with their saddle. No is the reply, you ride in my saddle which fits the horse or not at all. Some seem to think one saddle fits all and it is not so. Pain seemed to be an issue and now I find it has only one eye. Now its a lease horse and you seem to have sorted some of the problems what are you going to do Keep the horse or find a new one. I personally would never lease a horse, one never knows what its been through.

A trick I learnt to get the horses attention and to set out who is boss.

All you need is a riding crop or not to long whip and a bucket and the horses favourite food. 
Feed in the bucket and stand guard stopping the horse from having it. Now be careful as its going to chuck a tantrum that's where the crop come in to tap the horse on the snout to move it off. Be careful it does not turn its butt to you and kick. If it threatens to kick hit its leg with the whip. The horse will display a bad mood then settle and watch. The I let it back to the bucket and I move off. I let it get interested and feeding then push it away again, and again it will throw a tantrum, be careful of it kicking. When it has settled again I let it have the food. While its eating I move to the back of the horse and watch its eyes and head. If it follows me with its head while eating, left and right side, I move away because it is now treating me as the boss. If it ignores me I chase it off its food and repeat.

I have found this is the quickest and easiest way to establish my dominance over the horse. When ever Bugs gets above his station a couple of minutes and he is doing as I ask again.

Good luck with the decisions on your horse

for what its worth, if you have never used this method to establish dominance.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

It sounds like the majority of the OPs issues are on the horse and it sounds like the horse is in pain.. I personally don't feel the above method is applicable to this situation.


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## Stan (Aug 25, 2011)

Yes, I agree the horse sounded like it was in pain and I mentioned my view on saddles. A horse in pain has attitude and will test the boundary.

The method I described was for establishing the pecking order with no hardship to the horse. It is the easiest method I have come across that works in minutes and does no harm.

A tool to keep handy. I did not offer it as the fix for the horse but as a natural way of getting control. Its what the dominant horse does in the herd pushing the lesser horse off the best grazing. Even with a horse that already knows its place in the pecking order, the natural instinct is to try and enhance their standing. I have found when mine gets pushy out comes the feed bucket, and in a couple of minutes I have an attitude change. An easy way to push back at 1400 pounds of attitude.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Sure, just don't see the horse being any less in pain and having a better attitude hence being safer to work with. If I was in serious pain and someone was "harassing" me (not saying OP is harassing, but basically any interaction at that point) I'd have a hard time, as a logical person, not snapping at whoever even if it was my boyfriend or boss or parent who I would respect.

Especially under saddle.


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## Stan (Aug 25, 2011)

Yogiwick said:


> Sure, just don't see the horse being any less in pain and having a better attitude hence being safer to work with. If I was in serious pain and someone was "harassing" me (not saying OP is harassing, but basically any interaction at that point) I'd have a hard time, as a logical person, not snapping at whoever even if it was my boyfriend or boss or parent who I would respect.
> 
> Especially under saddle.


I would imagine if the horse is in pain you would not put a saddle on it.

I did go through a saddle issue with one of my horses The saddle tree broke and it dug into the withers causing the horse to get out of control and I had to dismount in the middle of a bucking frenzy. The horse had hurt its back and was very tender. The trick I described was used to gain the pecking order and it also helped to get the horses confidence back so we could work with it and treat the injury. It worked, the respect it developed allowed me to handle the injury with less danger to me. But every one has different ways to get through to the horse.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Stan said:


> I would imagine if the horse is in pain you would not put a saddle on it.
> 
> I did go through a saddle issue with one of my horses The saddle tree broke and it dug into the withers causing the horse to get out of control and I had to dismount in the middle of a bucking frenzy. The horse had hurt its back and was very tender. The trick I described was used to gain the pecking order and it also helped to get the horses confidence back so we could work with it and treat the injury. It worked, the respect it developed allowed me to handle the injury with less danger to me. But every one has different ways to get through to the horse.


The horse is being ridden at least somewhat regularly. He has had time off and then is tried again.

Personally, I don't think that will do much but no harm in trying.


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## rydernation (Mar 12, 2014)

kathryn said:


> I have had my lease horse for 9 months now, I have three left. My trainer is so sick of him she wants me to send him back early. Ever since this year, he has just been such a brat. A few weeks ago, he kicked me for no discernible reason. My trainer saw it happen, she said nothing spooked him she could tell he just laid his ears back and nailed me right in the knee.
> 
> I took two weeks off, during which other riders at my barn hacked him, and now basically everyone refuses to hack him anymore since he has been so bad. It is to the point that I get congratulated for being "brave" for riding my own horse, people tell me things like "I couldn't even watch" because he bucks so hard. He has started dirty stopping and crazily over jumping when I MAKE him go over the jumps. Just cantering around you never know when he will just kick out for no reason, he has put holes in the arena walls, and he makes me so nervous riding with others, that he will randomly kick to show his displeasure at something and hit a person or horse or even hit something that hurts himself.
> 
> ...


I know that I'm new here, and I rode for twelve years on rental horses, at a stable where some of the horses that showed were hot tb's and had issues. I honestly believe that you should turn the horse back in early! It would only take a knee injury from a bad tempered horse to get me to do that. You not only rented a horse, you rented a horse that has a personality issue. Okay, my guess, people being what they are, they're going to point fingers at you and tell you that your treatment of the horse made him the idiot that he is. I would say to that, good luck on proving it. A horse like a human being, learns from behaviors that are reinforced. My take again, is that no matter the reason, you are not an animal behaviorist, which is what this guy needs to see if he can be saved. 
He's dangerous. Don't let your emotions get in the way of simple common sense!
Ali


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## rydernation (Mar 12, 2014)

kathryn said:


> Thanks for the responses guys. My trainer was thinking maybe its hormone issues? Yesterday during my lesson, he seemed so happy during the trotting portion of my flat warm up, ears pricked and willing to extend and collect as I asked and keep his pace with no encouragement. Everyone was commenting about what a good mood he seemed to be in. Then as soon as I asked him to canter, it was like a switch was flipped. His whole body tenses, he counterbends and comes off the rail, tosses his head and helicopters his tail when you ask him to canter. When you ask more firmly, either with more leg or a crop is when he gets seriously ****y and starts kicking out. Apparently he did this a lot at his old barn and it was actually surprising that he didn't do it here. We just assumed he had stopped doing it here because he was treated better, but the way he is treated has not changed.
> 
> Either way, the vet is coming to see him today and my trainer is going to call me when the vet leaves. Like I said I am just bummed, this horse has taught me so much, I've gone from missing almost every distance over like cross rails to winning shows at 2'6" and I care about him so much, but I can feel him starting to mess with my confidence, especially on the ground since he kicked me. It is just such a bummer if the lease would end early like this.


That's interesting. Does a change in gait always cause them to do this? Have you had an ortho vet evaluate their legs and hooves? Pain might be a reason, although I don't know. You can't possibly know what the horse was like before you leased him. I still say give him back.
Ali


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

It sounds to me like this horse has either a serious internal health problem or carries serious baggage.
Be thankful that you didn't BUY this horse. With ALL of the good horses on the Buyer's Market, I would suggest, Not My Property, Not My Problem. End the lease. *Your VET and your TRAINER have checked out this horse and can't fix the problem. * USUALLY trainers have a little bit of ego and would try to fix a training problem, INCLUDING saddle fit, bc that's an EASY fix, and then teach YOU how to handle it.
Again, end the lease and move on.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

I feel sorry for the horse in this case. Most horses start out really nice, and get screwed up by people. This horse has known skin issues, and possibly back pain or other problems.

The canter issues are similar to my mare, who is sound at the trot, but is extremely sore at the canter. I've had 2 vets look at her and over $2000 on diagnostics and still do not know what is wrong with her. If someone whipped her to canter I guarantee, she would turn into a dangerous horse. Right now she warns you every step of the way- tosses head/pinned ears, and little hops in the back end. She is happy to trot, but no more than that. Horses that have a favorite "lead" are probably sore as well, especially if they fight you to stay on just one lead.

I've also known horses to turn "evil" in the stable when in pain. Even my friend's nice QH acted horribly one day. He refused to walk to the saddling area. She had to get a crop to beat him to get him to go there. Once she got him saddled up, he was dead lame which is what he was trying to tell her to begin with. :-(

This horse is screaming for help. I would refuse to ride him. Dex shots are steroids which will mask pain anywhere as they spread through the entire body. I know a trainer who gives it anytime a horse is sore somewhere. The dex will help the itching as well, but it does have anti-inflammatory action. You are just putting a band-aid over a much larger problem.


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## kathryn (Jan 16, 2009)

Hey guys, so after our treatment a few weeks ago, he has been back to his perfect, grumpy self. We really think it was a bad allergy to the mud, he has been staying in or in the arena during rain lately and has been much better. His skin has always been very, very sensitive. He hasn't done his ballerina kicks or even his lead changes since we first gave him the Dex. Thank you so much for all the advice!


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## ILoveMyThoroughbredSmokey (Jan 15, 2014)

oh i am glad he is back to his old self! hope it continues to get better =)


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## Spellcheck (Sep 13, 2012)

I'm sure this has already been mentioned (I didn't read through all the posts) but it sounds to me like he's in pain, especially since the vet said he had skin soreness.

Horses very rarely suddenly go rotten without a good reason. There was a while that my mare starter throwing her head up when I picked up a canter; like yours, she has always had a bit of attitude, so I just passed it off as a lapse in temperament. Later I found out she had thrush and her feet were sensitive. 

If he used to be a great as you say, I wouldn't give up on him yet. 

I would wait until he has absolutely no excuse of pain (get his skin soreness fixed, etc.) and then give him a ground refresher to make sure the pain didn't cause a pattern that he will continue even when he feels better. 

Horses in pain can act in atrocious ways that they never would have considered before, but sometimes after the pain is gone the horse keeps up some behavior because they made it a habit. You_ may _have to spend a while on the ground after he's better before you ever get back on again. Every horse is different.


That's how I would handle it at least, but it's up to you to get rid of him if you don't feel safe.


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