# Can we play western?



## Eolith (Sep 30, 2007)

My mom has recently found out that she has moderate arthritis in her hip. She needs to cut back on riding while she does some physical therapy to help slow the progression. Her 16hh warmblood mare who wears a wide tree just isn't really suitable for her any more. Her movement is too big, and she's so wide that it strains my mom's hip that much more.

So, next year Kasja is coming to college with me. My mom and I have always been dressage riders in the past, but since being in college I've been taking more western riding lessons. I'm thinking that I would like to try riding Kasja in a more western style with less contact, and try to start encouraging her to slow up her movement a little more. I know that she'll never be anywhere remotely close to having a little western jog or lope like the QHs, and I don't expect that from her.

My biggest concern is just that I risk allowing her to fall on her forehand too much by riding western. She is naturally very heavy on her forehand and riding her dressage is like a constant fight against gravity, trying to encourage her to pick herself up every couple of strides.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Just my perspective:

Traveling on the forehand is natural to most horses. It is where most of their weight is carried when they walk or trot on their own, and I don't see a huge reason why that needs to change with a rider.

Collected gaits, in my almost non-existent experience at them, ARE more fun to ride. And they make sense for dressage, and any horse needs to be able to momentarily shift weight to the rear to make turns or spins possible. But if you have to fight the horse, then maybe the horse is built to carry more weight on the front.

There is a difference between extended and strung out. My Arabian mare does both. When she gets strung out, I milk the reins a bit with her shoulder movement and shift my weight further back, and she usually responds with smaller steps. If I work at it a little, I can usually get her down to a slow jog, which she is actually very good at.

My guess is that she will take a little while to understand that almost no contact doesn't mean you aren't paying attention - but she'll learn fast. Carrying weight on the forehand shouldn't be a huge problem unless she has a conformation difficulty that predisposes her to front end problems.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

bsms said:


> Traveling on the forehand is natural to most horses. It is where most of their weight is carried when they walk or trot on their own, and I don't see a huge reason why that needs to change with a rider..


I disagree. Research by experts like Dr Nancy Nicholson says otherwise.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

mildot said:


> I disagree. Research by experts like Dr Nancy Nicholson says otherwise.


If horses weren't meant in nature to carry more weight on their forehand then they wouldn't have evolved that way. You can't say nature has built the horse wrong. Nature has built the horse successfully for living naturally. And it just so happens that they physically carry more weight on their front end.

Now as humans we tell ourselves that we know best, and that because they carry a rider they have to redistribute their weight and such. And who knows, maybe there is some truth to that. But the fact still remains that the horse was built to carry more weight on their front end. 

If they weren't built to be carrying more weight on the front end they wouldn't be doing it on their own time.

By the way, who says a western horse has to be all heavy on the front end? Surely you can work towards collecting a horse in a western saddle? You can start out in a snaffle and work towards self carriage with the end goal to be collected on a draped rein. That is a worthy goal to aspire to.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Im not sure where you got the idea that western causes a heavy forehand.

A horse would not be able to work a cow, turn a barrel slide stop, spin and change leads properly if heavy in the front. It is very important for a cowhorse to work from the back to the front and engage his hindquarters properly, and work lightly and quickly. If anything else working a cow will give purpose and teach him to use his hindquarters and lighten up the frontend.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I've never seen a horse walk around supporting most of his weight with his rear end. For a few seconds, in play or in turns, but 99% of the time - no.

If collection was the norm, it wouldn't require training to do it. We would have race horse owners asking, "How can I get my horse off his rump and running?"

"The center of gravity is a theoretical point in the horse's body around which the mass of the horse is equally distributed. At a standstill, the center of gravity is the point of intersection of a vertical line dropped from the highest point of the withers and a line from the point of the shoulder to the point of the buttock. This usually is a spot behind the elbow and about two thirds the distance down from the topline of the back."

Horse Conformation Evaluation: What is Balance? by Cherry Hill

"In horsemanship, the center of balance of a horse is a position on the horse's back which correlates closely to the center of gravity of the horse itself. The term may also refer to the horse's center of gravity.

For the best performance by the horse, as well as for better balance of the rider, the rider must be positioned over the center of balance of the horse. The location of the horse's center of balance depends on a combination of speed and degree of collection. For a standing or quietly walking horse, it is slightly behind the heart girth and below the withers. If a horse is moving at a trot or canter, the center of balance shifts slightly forward, and it moves even more forward when the horse is galloping or jumping. If a horse is highly collected, the center of balance will be farther back, regardless of gait, than if the horse is in an extended frame. For movements such as a rein back or the levade, the center of balance of horse and rider may be further back than at a standstill, due to the shift of weight and balance to the hindquarters of the horse

Accordingly, a saddle designed for a specific discipline will attempt to place a rider naturally at the most suitable position for the anticipated activity of the horse.[1] For example, a "close contact" style of English saddle, designed for show jumping, places the rider's seat farther forward than does a dressage style English saddle."

Center of balance (horse) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There is a reason why the US Cavalry rejected collection as an aim in training cavalry mounts. They concluded it simply wasn't appropriate for what the cavalry did.

That doesn't make training for it wrong, but it does suggest it is OK if a horse doesn't learn to move collected continuously. Horses don't break down in the front end because they don't move collected. Most of the estimates I can find say they naturally carry 60-65% of their weight on the front end. The hind legs, being at the rear, do not naturally support the majority of the weight - and thus that is not what they have evolved for or been selected to do.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Here is a nice article that made me realize that even if the "goal" is collection, how much time does a horse really spend in a collected state while being ridden? Not very much, lol! 

Of sagging backs and tickling tummies


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

This is the OP's Kasja:










Notes from her page include:

_"She was very spooky, and her previous training had been to lean most of her weight onto her forehand and into the bit."

"Before we bought her, Kasja was used as a jumper and a dressage horse. A few years after we got her, we found out that she was developing arthritis in her right front pastern. No more jumping. We still ride dressage at the normal pace, with walk trot and canter, but occasionally she'll have an "off" day._ "

The concern is, "_My biggest concern is just that I risk allowing her to fall on her forehand too much by riding western._"

Western saddles typically put your weight further back than English, and riding 'on your pockets' tends to do so even more. And in my experience, a horse responds to this by becoming slightly MORE collected, not less. When I want my horse to turn fast around a pylon, I shift my weight to the rear - and if I'm in a western saddle, I'm already closer to the rear anyways. And the horse brings himself under MORE then, and turns with a lighter front end.

That would not result in the degree of collection taught in dressage, but it certainly isn't going to cause the horse a problem of putting too much weight on the front. And while MY horses don't do it (and that is because we have other training issues to work, such as 'Don't freak because there is a piece of plywood someone dumped in the desert'), western riding tends to emphasize stopping with the rear end, not the front - simply because you can get a faster stop that way.

Western riding doesn't seek the collection that dressage does, but it also doesn't put abnormal pressure on the front end.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

trailhorserider said:


> If horses weren't meant in nature to carry more weight on their forehand then they wouldn't have evolved that way. You can't say nature has built the horse wrong. Nature has built the horse successfully for living naturally. And it just so happens that they physically carry more weight on their front end.
> 
> Now as humans we tell ourselves that we know best, and that because they carry a rider they have to redistribute their weight and such. And who knows, maybe there is some truth to that. But the fact still remains that the horse was built to carry more weight on their front end.
> 
> ...


I'm not even going to argue with you all.

I'll listen a PhD that specializes in equine biomechanics long before I listen to a bunch of internet rationalizations by people who don't have .001% of her knowledge and experience.


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

bsms said:


> I've never seen a horse walk around supporting most of his weight with his rear end. For a few seconds, in play or in turns, but 99% of the time - no.
> 
> *If collection was the norm, it wouldn't require training to do it.* We would have race horse owners asking, "How can I get my horse off his rump and running?"


In my understanding, it is not collection per se that must be taught, but how to collect and move naturally with the added burden of a rider in the equation.

Now, I'm no vet, chiropractor, or biomechanics expert, but this is what one of my riding instructors had me do as an illustration. 

Consider sitting on your hands and knees. At rest, most of your weight is on your hands, correct? If you tried to keep the same posture and take the support of your hands away, you would fall on your nose. At rest, consider having that weight on your fingertips instead of your knuckles or palms. Pretty uncomfortable. It's even harder if you try to stand still on all fours with your back hollow and your head cranked up and back.

Now, consider moving forward on your hands and knees. Your weight is automatically going to shift back to a degree -- it has to, or you wouldn't be going anywhere at all. You can even move forward on your fingertips pretty easily if you're moving forward. 

Try doing all of the above with a little kid sitting on your back -- it's much harder, isn't it? You have to balance yourself and the child, even if the kid isn't trying to hang upside down underneath you. That's when crawling on hands and knees gets harder and the unconscious weight shift becomes more difficult to accomplish and maintain without building up the muscles to do it. Most any parent/big sibling knows how much easier piggyback rides are to give to "good riders" versus wriggling sacks of potatoes. 

The horse does the same basic thing all the time. No, it isn't a passage, or a levade, but it is a shift of weight rearward. Collection in the dressage sense is very specific -- dressage riders want to ultimately have the weight evenly distributed across all 4 legs, even entirely over the hinds (levade). In the western riding world, the requirements for what is considered "collection" are less stringent, but the basic concepts are the same. Dressage just takes what happens naturally to an ideal that is required for the horse to do the maneuvers required of the sport at whatever given level. We (general we) all promote a degree of "collection" in riding as a way to allow the horse to carry us more comfortably for a longer time, and also to be as athletic as they can be at liberty (even when they aren't "collected" in the dressage sense of their own accord) at the rider's will and his/her added weight. 

Eolith, I don't see any reason why dabbling in Western would do any harm to your horse's posture or progress with traveling less on the forehand. Just keep similar considerations in mind regarding her posture as you do in English tack; encourage her to stay round, forward, moving with impulsion, responsive to the aids, etc. :wink:


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

bsms said:


> Just my perspective:
> 
> Traveling on the forehand is natural to most horses. *I don't see a huge reason why that needs to change with a rider.*


Let's try this again.

What is bolded in red may be your opinion, but it is not shared by experts in equine biomechanics.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

If the horse is designed, by selection, to carry 60% of its weight on the front end, then adding a rider will NOT cause the front end to weigh disproportionately more and thus break down. Not unless the rider is forward of the horse's center of gravity, which is rarely the case. And in a western saddle, it is darn near impossible to get forward of the horse's center of gravity. If you do, it probably won't last long...:?

A horse will not break down on the front because she is ridden western style. If anything, I'd expect a horse that is used to being heavy on the bit and hard to collect would become LIGHTER on the front and LESS heavy with a bit when ridden western. Pivoting on the rear and making very sharp turns are pretty normal for western riding, and both put weight to the rear.

If the OP's horse has some arthritis in the front, riding western should NOT make it worse. When her horse is walking around a pasture, she is already putting the majority of her weight on the front end. Adding a rider increases total weight carried, but it does not increase the percentage carried by the front end.

Also, when a rider's weight is added, a horse changes its stride to accommodate the increased weight.

_"In short, explains Wickler, carrying a load causes a horse to shorten his stride, leave his feet on the ground longer and increase the distance his body travels (the "step length") with each stride. All of these gait adjustments work together to reduce the forces placed on the legs with each step."
_​How Much Weight Can Your Horse Safely Carry?

It is not necessary to train a horse to use a collected gait to prevent injury to the front legs. They are designed to carry the majority of the weight, the addition of the rider shifts the balance toward the rear, and horses automatically adjust their total movement to minimize their pain - just as we do when we carry a heavy load on our back.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

I made no mention of tack.

You can discuss this with Dr. Nicholson. I'm sure she would be interested in your research.

She works at Miami University of Ohio.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Physics, mildot. If you are behind the horse's center of gravity, you cannot put a greater percentage of weight on the front. If someone pulls on your right arm, it doesn't make your left arm heavier.

And since I couldn't find any quotes from Dr. Nicholson on the Internet, I cannot give a specific response to her since I don't know what she has said.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

You need some perspective. Western Horseman expect their horses to be balanced, too. You should search for videos of horses like "Rugged Lark", riding many disciplines and moving in a collected frame bridleless. Even some of the best Hollywood actors love to show off their own horses--or buy them later--in their movies. In "Tombstone" Kurt Russell is riding his gelding western but in a collected frame. Next time you watch the LOTR trilogy watch Viggo Mortenson's nicely collected horse.
Gee whiz--am I the ONLY one here who catches the German-trained warmbloods on RFD.tv, when they maintain their frame on a slack rein?!?
Just watched Craig Cameron retraining a rogue and putting him on the bit in the round pen by securing the reins to the saddle between the horse's legs and working same horse on the ground, AGAIN, in a collected frame.
Chris Cox ALWAYS shows off his 3yo's in a collected frame, and he had a show where he took the same horse to a Texas x-country course, maintaining the frame while he jumped him.
IMO, enjoy your horse. If you didn't plan to take him with you he would probably have to be sold with an uncertain future.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Eolith, 
maybe, if Kazra has not experienced a curb bit, this might be the time to try it. you could work on training her to neck rein and see what she does with either a Pelham (whichy would give you both curb and straight snaffle) or try something like a junior cow horse with very short shanks. might be fun.


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

bsms said:


> If the horse is designed, by selection, to carry 60% of its weight on the front end, then adding a rider will NOT cause the front end to weigh disproportionately more and thus break down. Not unless the rider is forward of the horse's center of gravity, which is rarely the case. And in a western saddle, it is darn near impossible to get forward of the horse's center of gravity. If you do, it probably won't last long...:?


Not sure what tack has to do with much of anything besides the difference in weight between a Western saddle and an English saddle. For my part, every well-fitted, properly placed and adjusted saddle I've ever seen places the rider above the horse's center of gravity, neither forward or back of it, regardless of style or design (caveat -- saddle-seat/park saddles, but I won't throw that into the mix). The only saddles I've ever seen place the rider farther back were very poorly placed, or were in sad need of a breastplate or breastcollar. :?



bsms said:


> A horse will not break down on the front because she is ridden western style. If anything, I'd expect a horse that is used to being heavy on the bit and hard to collect would become LIGHTER on the front and LESS heavy with a bit when ridden western. Pivoting on the rear and making very sharp turns are pretty normal for western riding, and both put weight to the rear.


I find, granted through observation and cursory research rather than firsthand experience, that tack almost never changes how heavy/light a horse is on the forehand. A "bigger" bit might intimidate him off the rider's hand at first, but that effect won't last forever. It's good riding, regardless of discipline, not tack style that determines how heavy or light a horse is on his forehand. 



bsms said:


> If the OP's horse has some arthritis in the front, riding western should NOT make it worse. When her horse is walking around a pasture, she is already putting the majority of her weight on the front end. Adding a rider increases total weight carried, but it does not increase the percentage carried by the front end.
> 
> Also, when a rider's weight is added, a horse changes its stride to accommodate the increased weight.
> _"In short, explains Wickler, carrying a load causes a horse to *shorten his stride*, leave his feet on the ground longer *and increase the distance his body travels (the "step length") with each stride*. All of these gait adjustments work together to reduce the forces placed on the legs with each step."_​How Much Weight Can Your Horse Safely Carry?


As I said before, I rather doubt that the 60/40 distribution is a totally accurate understanding of the situation outside of the case of the horse standing at rest. To move forward at all, the front end must be lightened via the activation of muscles. I'll leave that question aside for now.

I wonder if the idea of "heavy on the forehand" might not be better understood, for the purposes of this discussion, as shorthand for an inverted topline, disengaged hindquarters, and "strung out" posture, rather than as an absolute distribution of weight forward versus back of the center of gravity while the horse is in motion? Someone, please correct me if that conceptualization is just blatantly wrong and floating out in left field... :lol:

The portions of the bolded quotations rather confuse me... how can the stride be shortened, yet the distance traveled each stride increase? This seems pretty fundamentally contradictory, however I confess I did not read the entire article (I should theoretically be studying for finals, but there you go... xD ).



bsms said:


> It is not necessary to train a horse to use a collected gait to prevent injury to the front legs. They are designed to carry the majority of the weight, the addition of the rider shifts the balance toward the rear, and *horses automatically adjust their total movement to minimize their pain - just as we do when we carry a heavy load on our back*.


We do not automatically adjust ourselves to the burden of added weight, at least, not always in the most biomechanically constructive way. Most everyone knows that heavy weights should be lifted from the knees, but does everybody do that in practice?? And that's after the necessity for such actions have been rationally explained and we (general we) understand the physiological consequences of using such poor body mechanics. We don't have the luxury with horses of explaining rationally why traveling inverted, strung out, disengaged (in short, "heavy on the forehand") is bad for them structurally, therefore correct body mechanics and posture must be encouraged through the aids. It isn't so much about preventing immediate injury to the forelegs as preventing long-term damage to the topline and body overall, forelegs and hind legs included. That, and if the rest of the article quoted above is as contradictory as the quote, I'd question exactly how that "natural good compensation" happens at all. I'll have to read the article when I have more time. 

Our horses are athletes, even if they're in comparatively light work -- it's not quite the same as helping Cousin Joe move his big screen tv one time with bad lifting form. That probably won't hurt you in the long run to do it one time. To move big screen tvs (or barbells) all day every day with bad form will. The best way to maximize their long-term comfort and useful life is to encourage proper body mechanics, just as for any other athlete.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Lots to reply to...

1 - Few saddles place you directly over the horse's center of gravity. A jump saddle or a racing saddle, ridden in a forward seat, probably would. Almost every other saddle will place you behind the horse's center of gravity.

I pulled this from the Internet for discussion, and I have no idea who the rider is:










At a rest, the horse's center of gravity is roughly at the front top of his boots. With motion, it will move forward. Is his weight forward or aft of the horse's center of gravity?

Aft. And that is good in a western saddle. There is a reason that my western saddle is 27 inches long, but my Aussie saddle is 21 inches long. And there is a reason why the tree extends further back with a western saddle. Western saddles were designed in part for roping. When you rope a steer, and the weight hits the horn, you need all the weight to the rear that you can get - I'm guessing, since I don't work cattle. But all that weight hitting the horn needs SOMETHING for balance...

I can't find my book right now, but Littauer discusses being aft of the horse's CG as adding a safety factor for some things, such as unexpected stops. It also tends to be easier on the rider, again according to Littauer. That would help explain why stock saddles tend to be built that way.

2 - Western riders DO expect their horses to be balanced, but that is NOT the same thing as riding with a collected gait. They definitely need to be able to shift their balance toward the rear, because that is critical in pivoting or fast turns - which is needed for working stock, or barrel racing, or reining, or most any other western competition.

Remember - no race horse ever won the Kentucky Derby by being unbalanced, OR by being collected. Balance does NOT = collection.

3 - Strung out. "I wonder if the idea of "heavy on the forehand" might not be better understood, for the purposes of this discussion, as shorthand for an inverted topline, disengaged hindquarters, and "strung out" posture, rather than as an absolute distribution of weigh..."

In my first post on this thread, I made that distinction. Post #2:

"There is a difference between extended and strung out. My Arabian mare does both. When she gets strung out, I milk the reins a bit with her shoulder movement and shift my weight further back, and she usually responds with smaller steps. If I work at it a little, I can usually get her down to a slow jog, which she is actually very good at."

A horse can get strung out either western or English. In either case, the answer is to gently restrain the front end while keeping the rear end moving, until the rear and front are working together again.

4 - "We do not automatically adjust ourselves to the burden of added weight, at least, not always in the most biomechanically constructive way. Most everyone knows that heavy weights should be lifted from the knees, but does everybody do that in practice?"

The first time you do it, you will often do it wrong. But if you are lifting heavy weights (sacks of grain or dumbbells) very often, you will either learn to do it right or give up due to pain.

I used to own a green, 750 lb Arabian. In riding her out, my 200 lbs of man & tack was a challenge for her. I could feel her adjust her balance, trying to make it work. And we went from very short rides to much longer ones as she got used to it. I also have a 650 lb mustang pony. My 200 lbs of person and tack is a challenge for him, and he adjusts to make it work. I can feel him carrying me differently than my 900 lb mare. But he knows how to do it, and has proven it by galloping as nauseum with me on his back.

5 - "It's good riding, regardless of discipline, not tack style that determines how heavy or light a horse is on his forehand"

Not entirely, in my experience. A horse can get strung out with either tack, but the further aft weight of a western saddle tends to discourage it. When my horses get strung out, shifting my weight to the rear seems to help settle them.

6 - "The portions of the bolded quotations rather confuse me... how can the stride be shortened, yet the distance traveled each stride increase?"

Good question. I do not know. Here is a more complete quote, but it confuses me too. However, please note what percentage of weight is carried on the front or rear, and how that can change without the rider trying to do anything:_
"Because a trotting horse looks like he is using his diagonal feet in perfect tandem, it might seem as if the reaction forces would be evenly distributed across the two legs that support him at each phase of the stride. But in fact, there are significant differences in the amount of forces borne by the front and rear legs. *On a level surface the forelimbs consistently supported 57 percent of the forces while the hind limbs supported 43 percent. Going uphill, this pattern of distribution shifts, with 52 percent supported by the forelimbs while the hind limbs took on 48 percent*. Time of contact also varied. At higher speeds, the two feet were on the ground about the same amount of time, but at slower speeds, the hind limbs tended to spend less time on the ground--an observation that had never been made before in quadrupeds, according to Wickler. For the front limbs, time of contact didn't change significantly whether on the level or on the incline, but the hind limbs tended to be in contact with the ground longer when going uphill._
_*
Gait*
_ 
_To study the biomechanical effects of loads, the Cal State researchers trotted five Arabians at a consistent speed on a treadmill under three different conditions: on the level with no load, on a 10 percent incline with no load, and on the level while carrying a saddle and weights that totaled about 19 percent of their body mass. To record the motion and speed of the horses' foot movements, an accelerometer was attached to the right hind hoof, and the sessions were recorded with a high-speed video camera._

_Carrying a load caused the horses to leave their feet on the ground an average of 7.7 percent longer than they did while trotting unburdened. On the level, the addition of a load caused the swing phase of the stride to become 3 percent shorter, but going uphill this phase of stride lasted 6 percent longer._

_In short, explains Wickler, carrying a load causes a horse to shorten his stride, leave his feet on the ground longer and increase the distance his body travels (the "step length") with each stride. All of these gait adjustments work together to reduce the forces placed on the legs with each step. "Forces are damaging," says Wickler, "so keeping the foot on the ground reduces peak forces and reduces that potential for injury."
_​How Much Weight Can Your Horse Safely Carry?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Rereading that last quote, maybe what he means is that the legs move a shorter distance (front leg impact to front leg impact), but the hind legs push more so that while the strides are shorter, the distance covered is greater. I'm guessing at that, and not sure it makes sense. 

But it seems obvious that how a horse moves is more complex than what we ask for. I have no idea how i could ASK my mare to leave her hind legs in contact with the ground for a greater length of time...


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## Eolith (Sep 30, 2007)

Wow, I didn't realize that this would become as big a topic as it has... though I'm glad it could become a subject of debate. I am very grateful for the advice and knowledge as well. To be clear, I never intended to imply that western riding does not involve collection or asking the horse to use its hind quarters. I am very aware that the opposite is true. I guess you could say I'm just a little gunshy given Kasja's history about how she will respond to the lower headset.

Before we got her, she was trained very much in the "rolkur" method. Because of this, she has the tendency to lean into the rider's hand. If you aren't constantly correcting her and asking her to support herself and lift her forehand, you'll literally feel as though you as the rider are attempting to support the entire head neck and shoulders of a 1200 lb horse. This is what I meant with the "fighting gravity" comment. The consequences of this include her becoming lame because the extra weight and strain aggravates the arthritis in her front pastern, she gets spookier because she feels off balance, and she begins to stumble over herself. 



tinyliny said:


> Eolith,
> maybe, if Kazra has not experienced a curb bit, this might be the time to try it. you could work on training her to neck rein and see what she does with either a Pelham (whichy would give you both curb and straight snaffle) or try something like a junior cow horse with very short shanks. might be fun.


Thanks for the input tinyliny. Kasja has advanced enough in her dressage career that we have ridden her in a double bridle, so she is somewhat familiar with the curb action of the weymouth and she does not seem to have too much difficulty with it. I will likely begin this western riding style "testing phase" by riding her in the double bridle a few times and working on using less snaffle and more curb rein. She is very skilled at following the rider's weight and leg cues when it comes to turning and bending, so the neck reining and such should come relatively easily.

The different type of contact is what I'm questioning when it comes to Kasja remaining balanced and collected. With the curb style bit, she will not be able to lean into the rider's hand as much as she has been while riding in a snaffle. But does this mean that she will begin to carry herself a little more (which would be ideal)... or will she "nose dive" without the rider's constant reminders to pick herself up?

I guess there's really only one way to find out: I'll have to give it a shot. :lol:


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Wow I can't believe this honestly turned into an argument.

Anywho. OP, my reining mare is heavy on the forehand too. She's just like that. It's taken a lot of work to get her to engage her hind end but she does it if you ask her. Before it was just a lot of fighting, bump-squeeze-rein-bump-squeeze-rein, with minimal release back to the loose rein...Now it just takes a lot of leg support. It's no easy feat but it's possible! There's no reason your horse can't do it.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Eolith said:


> Wow, I didn't realize that this would become as big a topic as it has... though I'm glad it could become a subject of debate. I am very grateful for the advice and knowledge as well. To be clear, I never intended to imply that western riding does not involve collection or asking the horse to use its hind quarters. I am very aware that the opposite is true. I guess you could say I'm just a little gunshy given Kasja's history about how she will respond to the lower headset.
> 
> Before we got her, she was trained very much in the "rolkur" method. Because of this, she has the tendency to lean into the rider's hand. If you aren't constantly correcting her and asking her to support herself and lift her forehand, you'll literally feel as though you as the rider are attempting to support the entire head neck and shoulders of a 1200 lb horse. This is what I meant with the "fighting gravity" comment. The consequences of this include her becoming lame because the extra weight and strain aggravates the arthritis in her front pastern, she gets spookier because she feels off balance, and she begins to stumble over herself.
> 
> ...


First off, I guess I took your OP wrong. Sorry about that 

I have never transitioned a horse from english to western so I may be wrong here....She will be reminded to keep herself picked up, but will not be allowed to lean on the bit. As soon as she picks herself and comes off the bit, then she is released. She will learn to stay off the bit rather than to seek it. I imagine this will be the hardest part to teach her, or it would be for me anyhow. But I agree with you, given her attentiveness to your seat and legs, neck reining will be easy for her to pick up.

As far as headset, it will not require a lower headset. In my opinion you should not force a lower headset if it is not natural. From the pic, given her conformation, she would naturally carry her head higher than a traditional QH.( just generalizing, there is even a huge difference/range within our herd of QH as far as natural headset and carriage) If she is collected and balanced it would not matter if she doesn't lope around with her nose between her knees.

And like I said before working a horse on cattle gives purpose to training. It seems to make it come together. All of a sudden they "get it" as why they need to pivot off the the hindquarters to turn with a cow as it makes them more agile. And afterwards you may find with a little crosstraining she may have renewed excitement for dressage.

I think it will be fun to play with, and I would be curious as to how she likes it! 
Good Luck!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

COWCHICK77 said:


> (A)fterwards you may find with a little crosstraining she may have renewed excitement for dressage.


PROBABLY the best quote on this thread.


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