# Non refundable payment for lessons



## bkylem (Sep 21, 2013)

Sweeney Road said:


> Last Friday (November 22) I pre-paid my riding instructor/owner of the stable for a package of 12 lessons. Later that day I had a terrible lesson which was the last lesson from the previous package of 12 lessons (given by her daughter). I had had issues with the daughter before, but thought the owner had straightened everything out with the daughter. Apparently not! I was working on a posting trot in the arena with the daughter behind me and by the time I was facing the direction of the daughter, it seemed that the daughter had left halfway through the lesson.
> 
> I contacted the owner via e-mail later that day (Friday) and told her I would not be returning since it was obvious that my goals and riding abilities were not compatible with the riding philosophy of the staff. After telling her in two separate e-mails that I wanted a refund of my money, she told me today (Tuesday) that she doesn't give refunds, even though I have not started with the current package of lessons.
> 
> ...


I understand the documentation that emails offer, but why didn't you just speak to her directly ?


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## Sweeney Road (Feb 12, 2012)

She had gone out to deposit my money and was not there before I had left the premises. Additionally, I have very poor telephone service, and I have no intentions of physically returning to the stable. E-mail offers documentation, a telephone conversation does not.


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## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

Did you write a check? Can you cancel it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ladygodiva1228 (Sep 5, 2012)

Does the daughter normally give the lessons? Did you explain to her that her daughter had left you halfway through the lesson? Do you like the mother as an instructor? If so I would tell her that you will do this last set of lessons, but only if she is the one giving you the lesson. 

It is a tough call is there anything in the agreement that states the lessons are non-refundable?


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## OutOfTheLoop (Apr 1, 2012)

Just fyi, small claims court can order them to pay you monies if the judgement goes in your favor, but nothing actually makes them pay you that money. At least thats how it is where I am.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PaintHorseMares (Apr 19, 2008)

OutOfTheLoop said:


> Just fyi, small claims court can order them to pay you monies if the judgement goes in your favor, but nothing actually makes them pay you that money. At least thats how it is where I am.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's right. You can get the judgement in your favor, but you still have to try and actually collect it.


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## Tazmanian Devil (Oct 11, 2008)

Did you pay by check or credit card? If so cancel/dispute payment. Always better to make them chase you for the money.

If you paid by cash, do you have a receipt? Does it state "non-refundable?" Did you sign anything or receive anything (release form, lesson coupons, etc." stating non-refundable? Are there any sings posted in the office stating non-refundable?

If non-refundable was communicated to you, you have little chance of winning in court based on the info given.

Even if not, it doesn't sound like you have a good case. You took 11 lessons and liked them enough to buy another package of 12. You had a bad experience with one lesson and suddenly - without any attempt to work things out - you want a full refund? 

I'm not picking in you, but you have to look at it the way a third party will. The big hole in your position is buying the second lesson package.


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## Sweeney Road (Feb 12, 2012)

Lessons were paid for in cash, no receipt. I have actually had several sets of lessons, usually from the mother or an associate, but not normally the daughter. Lessons from the mother and the associate were fine, but the lessons from the daughter were half-hearted at best and I had told the mother on previous occasions that I was not pleased. Her daughter apparently believes that if I just tried harder, I could undo built up scar tissue from a decades old back injury which prevents me from moving very quickly and which makes riding over jumps rather unpleasant during extremely cold weather. The daughter insisted on having me attempt jumps during the lesson, even though I had that very morning pointed out that I would be loathe to do any jumping that day. As a relative beginner, it's fairly easy to change the focus of the lesson (which is what the mother always does), but it seemed that the daughter felt that I just wasn't trying hard enough and after a great deal of rolling of eyes and exasperated sighs, she left. I obviously didn't communicate to the mother as well as I thought since she had her daughter teach the last lesson. One last thing, the daughter much prefers to teach children how to jump, and has little to no empathy for me as a much older student who simply wants to learn how to safely ride a horse and is willing to spend a lot of time working on the basics of flatwork. Jumping is not my main focus, and I have discussed that several times with the mother and the associate.

I have e-mail communication acknowledging receipt of the money, but nothing in writing that says PRE-PAID lessons which have not yet been taught are non-refundable until the last e-mail.

I will take the suggestion that I communicate with the mother that I would be willing to take the lessons with her only, but no one else.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Sweeney Road said:


> Lessons were paid for in cash, no receipt.


If you end up taking her to small claims court, this is going to hurt you. 

ALWAYS get a receipt. Or don't give the money. 

What does your contract for the lessons say? (although I would assume you don't have one) Again, this is where things in writing can stop a headache before it starts.


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## Sweeney Road (Feb 12, 2012)

I will be taking the 12 lessons with the owner and then leaving for a more beginner friendly barn.

Thank you for all the advice.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Glad it all worked out for you, that's what I was going to say, if they don't give refunds, you might as well just use up the lessons. Small claims court is a gamble and usually not worth it if you have to pay officials to collect your settlement.


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## Chevaux (Jun 27, 2012)

A little thought, Sweeney Road: Don't suppose you could sell the lessons to someone else you know or from the barn? Even selling them at a discount will be of some benefit to you assuming you'd prefer not to take the lessons now.


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## Sweeney Road (Feb 12, 2012)

Chevaux, an interesting thought! However, I have arranged to have lessons strictly with the mother, and then will move to another stable for lessons. There are quite a few places within easy driving distance (at least three in under ten minutes) so I am fairly certain that I will find a place where I am comfortable.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

I'm sorry to hear you had a bad experience. Horse people can be crazy ._. I certainly would have refunded you xD


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## Left Hand Percherons (Feb 1, 2011)

Explain to me why the instructor is pushing beginners to jump before they have basic skills. That should of made you run the other way a long time ago. I understand the "kool" factor with kids but you're going to screw up any balance and rhythm you might have and it will take you much longer to develop a good seat.


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## PrivatePilot (Dec 7, 2009)

Sweeney Road said:


> Chevaux, an interesting thought! However, I have arranged to have lessons strictly with the mother, and then will move to another stable for lessons.


That was exactly what I was going to suggest you do. Hope that works well for you in the end, but at the end of your business with her don't be afraid to tactfully/politely tell her WHY you're not coming back. Sometimes business owners need to know why they may not be keeping their clientele, otherwise they're left thinking "Bah, crappy customer" instead of the other way around.

And IMHO, never prepay for lessons ANYWHERE until you're extremely comfortable with your barn. Where we are now I'd prepay in a heartbeat as we love it there, but if it was a new barn where we had no idea if a situation like this could occur, sorry...pay by the lesson, of a few lessons at a time tops.


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## Sweeney Road (Feb 12, 2012)

Oshawapilot, I have been at this stable for almost a year, and am comfortable with the mother and the associate, just not the daughter. 

I will absolutely let her know why I am leaving. I was very disappointed that the daughter heard the first couple of words out of my mouth and stopped listening.

LHP, I wasn't being asked to jump big jumps, but larger than what I am used to. Large enough that I would need to canter in order to jump them, however, and I am still working on getting the cue down for cantering. I was supposed to be working on picking up the canter to the right, not jumping! 

So frustrating when the daughter doesn't bother to listen.


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## DuckDodgers (May 28, 2013)

Sweeney Road said:


> Oshawapilot, I have been at this stable for almost a year, and am comfortable with the mother and the associate, just not the daughter.
> 
> I will absolutely let her know why I am leaving. I was very disappointed that the daughter heard the first couple of words out of my mouth and stopped listening.
> 
> ...


This right here! If you don't have cueing and riding a canter down pat, then it is dangerous for an instructor to be pushing you to jump. Especially if it's anything bigger than tiny!


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## Left Hand Percherons (Feb 1, 2011)

Honestly even an 18" cross rail that the horse could step over. What value is it in a lesson when one can't WTC with ease and confidence? It's too easy to demoralize and destroy one's confidence making one do that when they aren't ready to. The instructor and the student both lose.


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## PrivatePilot (Dec 7, 2009)

If the coaches daughter is young, she's probably at the life stage where she has no clue. She's invincible, doesn't understand why other people "just don't get things", and because she probably grew up around horses and had the benefit of riding every day from a young age and learning rapidly, she doesn't understand why others don't instantly pick up on things as well. 

Aches and pains that can slow down us more mature riders? She has no idea there either.

However, none of that is an excuse for ditching out in the middle of a lesson. That's just ignorant. Her mother really needs to call her out for that and realize that she's doing their business a huge disservice treating paying customers like that. Even when things are going well, with that sort of attitude I doubt that even a "successful" lesson is a gratifying one for most people.


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## Cacowgirl (Feb 19, 2011)

Glad you got that worked out. Always get a receipt, especially for cash. I just bought some tools for hubby, & when I drop off the money later today to a neighbor, I will get a receipt, as I'm taking the lesson here to heart.


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## Sweeney Road (Feb 12, 2012)

Osawapilot, the daughter isn't *that* young, she is probably around 30! When I explained to her that my back injury prevents me from moving as quickly as I'd like, her response was that 'she'd had back injuries and could still do things quickly'. This is why I had talked to the mother in the first place, and still don't understand why the mother had the daughter give the lesson that day. The daughter won't understand the problems a more mature student has until she gets to that age and those aches and pains start creeping up on her, assuming that she can even still ride herself!

When these lessons are done, I will be moving to a barn where the students are started bareback to ensure that they have the proper foundation. I think I will like that much better.


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## PrivatePilot (Dec 7, 2009)

Sorry, off topic...but...Started bareback? Hmm. I know more than a few people who would never have started riding (or quit very early after a fall) in that scenario - it's hard and the chances of falling off are exponentially higher. One fall early on with some people and they're done, especially if it's a bad one and they get hurt. 

My older sister just started taking lessons and is a very nervous rider at this point, very worried about getting hurt in a fall. If she did have one this early on I'm thinking she'd walk away from riding. Six months down the road when she has much more confidence and skill, if it happens I think she would stick with it nonetheless – however at the very beginning it would be a dealbreaker for a lot of people I'd think.


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## Sweeney Road (Feb 12, 2012)

Yes, I though it was an interesting concept, but she's been doing it that way for 20 plus years and it seems to work for her. Students know in advance that she will start them that way, so it probably winnows out most of the people who would be most nervous about it.

I think I mentioned earlier that there are at least three barns in the immediate area which give lessons. I was off by about five barns! I believe there are around 8 barns within 8 minutes driving distance for me, so there's quite a few choices for students.

I confess I hope that the school horses are short.


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