# Equilix Tubs For vit/mins



## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

Anyone use these for their horse's? do horse actually lick/ eat them? Will these tubs replace having to feed grain?

My horse's have quit eating any kind of feed grain. Eating the grass/weed hay and that's it. They need some form of nutrition other than the crap hay they are eating. They've had there hard season can't afford to have another hard season going through winter months.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

Grain/feed is fed because your horse needs extra calories that they can't get from hay alone.
Supplements like Equilix tubs are vitamin/mineral licks... are they not?

Today most horse grain/feed that is made in a commercial mill is often fortified with a balance of nutrients, but not necessarily all of what a horse should receive a day...
Some horses need extra, or special supplementing to achieve the levels best for their body to thrive.
I see empty tubs of this product in one persons fields lately, but never have I seen his horses actually "eating" from those tubs...
If these are "loose minerals" then by me they would float away during rainy season overflowing buckets.
I know there are a lot of wildlife in the area and wonder how much those animals consumed...
I think if it were me I would rather feed a specific amount to my horses daily in their feed bucket and know they got their supplement than leave it to them to find the tub and spend enough time licking the stuff to get the right percentages ingested...
:runninghorse2:...
_jmo..._


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

The tubs aren't loose granular vit/min it's a solid block. Local feed store carries equilix as does the local farm store. No wouldn't buy it if it came in a granular form horse's would dump tub out. I'd put tub inside shelter for them. 

Yeah they need calories but i can't get them to eat any kind of hard feed be it pellets or grain. They have been wormed, teeth floated treated for ulcers. Can dump molasses on the feed they eat it that way for a few times then nope won't touch it. If i leave them hungry for 12 to 15 hours as in no hay no pasture, they will eat feed then because they are hungry.:icon_rolleyes:

They will eat hay got 15 bales of alfalfa they goble that up. But the alfalfa won't last but a month if that only 15 square bales that are 75 lb bales, and no more left so can't buy more.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Unless something better has come on the market, Equilix is the best lick tub you can feed, IMHO.

EquiLix Lick Block In Tubs Support Horse's Digestion of Forages

I fed their bagged supplement for a couple of years when Duke was diagnosed with metabolic issues in 2007. I stopped because I had to drive 90+ miles to the nearest feed store that carried it. Buying six months worth at a time was not a good thing as the last bags used were at risk of going bad, even though I kept it in the house. Plus I was growing really weary of that long drive, when part of it meant I had to go thru Nashville


At first you may see the horses constantly licking the tub. Once their systems level out, they should slow down some.

Even though your horse's have been checked, I would still think ulcers if they won't eat bagged feed of any sort. Most vets don't think to check for hind gut ulcers which are NOT the same a gastric stomach ulcers.

Hopefully they will like the Equilix and [Byes, keep it out of the weather, those tubs aren't cheap[/B]. Also make sure they have white salt near their water stations, even though salt is in the Lix tubs


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

What kind of change did you see in your horses walkin?
How long before you saw a difference?
And best one is.... since most commercial feed is fortified those of us that need to feed feed for the extra calories to keep weight on...what gets screwy with them then having a free-choice lickit at their disposal?


I could see my piggy never leaving the thing alone...he would try to eat it in one day, pig that he is...
To do round-rolls I must limit hours of eating as my one will not stop the gorge even after 2 weeks, he just gorges and looks it... :|

I would fear the same result with the tub...
Then have the vet bill for over-indulgence and possible poisoning of the horse. :icon_rolleyes:
:runninghorse2:...


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

horselovinguy said:


> What kind of change did you see in your horses walkin?
> How long before you saw a difference?
> And best one is.... since most commercial feed is fortified those of us that need to feed feed for the extra calories to keep weight on...what gets screwy with them then having a free-choice lickit at their disposal?
> 
> ...


I fed their bagged product, "Equipride" so over feeding wasn't an issue. Duke was my only metabolic horse, at that time and I wanted to control how much he ate.

In terms of change - lollol. Surprise surprise, this was when I discovered Rusty had grain & soy sensitivity in less than ten days of feeding the Equipride. The change for the good was so drastic even my non-horse husband noticed the difference in his behavior.

It did its job very well, in terms of overall health, skin & and hoof condition. It was also $50/50# bag back in 2007, so not at all cheap. I think I stopped feeding it in 2009 or thereabouts because 90+ miles was just too far to drive and I had to order a six month supply.

*Lick tubs are not meant to be fed along with vit/min fortified bagged feed*; they are supposed to provide everything the horse needs. The bulk of them, however, have a molasses base which is not good for easy keepers.

Normally, I don't like lick tubs but they do have their place under certain circumstances. @rambo99 is in a position to where a quality mineral lick is about her only option to get the vit/min in her horses.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

The only time I have ever seen horses refuse pelleted feed or grain on a regular basis is when they had ulcers. They will come back if the underlying reason for the ulcers is not addressed.

I can't comment on the lickit tub as I haven't used them or researched them. I'm kind of in the camp with Horseluvinguy. I have a mare that would lickit until she foundered.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

I used to feed blocks until I had a horse that would bite them and ruined her teeth. Now it is loose minerals. Equilix does not use a molasses base from what I have read on their tubs and I have considered moving to a tub as there are no exposed edges for this mare to bite. IMO though a lick has to be licked an awful lot for them to get what they need. The loose minerals I started feeding have done wonders where the blocks only whet their appetite for what they were missing. Loose for me is a pain as I have no covered areas so I add to their feed depending on what they are actually being fed and how much.


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## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

Rambo, the times I have put one of the Equilix tubs out in the pasture, my critters flipped it over, stomped on it until the goodies fell out, and then ate 'em. They do the same thing when I set out one of the "Horse Blocks", without having to go thru the trouble of getting it out of the tub. Never had either one last more than a couple of days.
The used tubs do make an OK feed pan . . . about all the value I ever saw in them.
Mine are on free-feed grass hay, and have been getting a "Ration Balancer" feed/supplement (Nutrena "Empower": https://www.nutrenaworld.com/product/empower-balance-grass-formula-supplement), and a Probiotic ("Fastrack") for years. I can't point to anything specific and say "Look at these results!", but (knock-on-wood) they are all happy, healthy critters with glossy, luxuriant pelts, and a BCS of 5.5 or 6. Note that they are Senior animals, too; Banjo is 34, Oily is 25, and George is 18. Mandolin is the baby, at 13yo. Banjo_the_Elder is still rideable (and loves to go out), as long as you retain modest expectations.
edit to add: Banjie has PPID, and has been on Pergolide for several years. George has recently tested positive for this and/or IR, and is now getting Pergolide as well. The Empower is vet approved (our vet, anyway) for PPID/IR.


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## Boo Walker (Jul 25, 2012)

The only thing I would caution about the tubs is to know your selenium levels. The tubs have added selenium which is fine unless you live in a drought prone area, in which case your hay may have elevated selenium levels as well. Selenium toxicity can be fatal so just keep an eye on everything you feed.

If you use the tubs, be prepared to buy them pretty frequently at first. Some horses low in nutrients gobble them up quickly until they get balanced. Then they may last a month or more. At about $50 a pop, the initial frequent purchases can shock some people. They seem to hold up well in rain and snow.

Your best investment will be quality hay and lots of it. Your regional grass or grass alfalfa mix hay will keep them grazing and full, which is doubly important if there is a tendency for ulcers. The constant munching will also help them stay warm in the winter. Weaver has a great hay net with 2" holes that slows them down, reduces wasted hay and is very durable. I get mine from Amazon or eBay.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

My friend used these for her horses.....I must say that it did nothing for them. Nothing. They had 50 acres of pasture. She drove a LONG way to pick up the tubs and spent a LOT of money....for nothing, IMO, and when we paired up one of her horses with mine, the trainer said, “If you are going to use him at a show, you should probably take him to your barn. Obviously, you know how to feed a horse, and she doesn’t....” 

I know this is not a popular thought anymore, but I don’t care. This is how Man O’ War, Bold Ruler, and EVERY other successful horse born (before Purina decided we should feed horses the SAME junk food they SELL to humans) was fed. 

Get the BEST oats you can find. WHOLE oats. The “racehorse” oats are bigger, so they have more meat inside. Get a bag of Calf Manna, since your hay is not great. Make sure they have loose salt. It is only $5 for a 50 lb bag at tractor supply. Use a small bucket or a rubber tub and fill it . If it gets wet, no big deal. The horses will slurp it if they want the salt.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

I never thought about the selenium that is in it. Not going to get anything today roads are slicker than snot. Only better hay i got was alfalfa no more to get guys sold out. There is no hay to be found everyone is sold out,reason i'm asking about the equilix tubs for added nutrition. 

Feeding feed/grain is so hit and miss i can't rely on horse's to eat it on a daily basis. Not sure they will even lick on the equilix tub,they might and then again might not touch it. Have a bag of calf manna will try feeding it again also have race horse oats so will try them again also.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

If you have to supplement minerals and vitamins then buy a good one and feed it to the horse in the recommended daily amount - even if it means using molasses or apple sauce or carrot puree to get them to eat.
These 'help yourself' blocks rely on the horse actually using them at all, which many don't, or them using them in exactly the right amount which many also don't
I've had perfectly healthy horses munch through these blocks in a ridiculously short time simply because they liked the flavor that's added to them to encourage licking so I never use them.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

I started using the Equilix this year. 
They don't have the added sugar as most blocks and tubs as they dont put molasses in them. Because of that it might take them a day or do to get used to the taste of them. My sales rep gave a gallon ziplock baggie of the loose bagged version to mix into their feed for a couple days to get them going on it then they took right to the tubs.
As mentioned before do not feed additional selenium and put out salt separately as the tubs have salt added and you dont want them eating the tubs just for the salt. And at first they will go through them fast until they level out.

Also. I never had an issue with them in weather. They will slurp up the rain water or melted snow in them. They are a little bit weatherized but I wouldn't say as much as the cow mineral I put out for the cows so just keep an eye on the tubs.

Make sure if you have multiple horses on large acreage you have enough tubs to accommodate the large area and every horse otherwise you are basically throwing your money away as they wont be utilizing the tubs to their full potential.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

My friend used these earlier this summer. His four horses were eating a tub a day for over a week... no harm done to them aside from raw tongues, but then they levelled off and now a tub lasts a few months. However, for the amount he spent on tubs, you could buy a lot of hay pellets or quality hay and a bagged mineral blend. I can't say his horses look any better than they did before.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

Only have two horse's and they are locked up in a smaller area due to firearms deer hunting. really not sure what to do being horse's are thin and NEED weight. Both did eat grain this morning it's colder than it was just a few days ago so that might of helped. 

Picture of black gelding shows just how thin he is. Other gelding is also on thin side. A few pictures of black horse,he's being fed all he can eat hay now plus a few flakes of alfalfa at night. 

They will NOT EAT hay pellets neither horse likes them,WON"T touch beet pulp either. I fed a lot of hay pellets last winter and senior feed when i had old guy. By spring all the horse's were sick of eating the stuff and quit eating it. Since then they won't touch the stuff even with molasses pour on it, applesauce or carrots added.


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

@rambo99, apologies if you've already answered this elsewhere, but will they eat hay _cubes_ instead of pellets? My older mare who ended the summer ribby is loving the timothy/alfalfa blend cubes (of course, she loves pretty much anything you put in front of her :wink. You can really control the texture of them quite a bit. I soak them overnight with the cubes hand broken up into larger chunks and covered only about half way with cold water, so they still maintain some texture by morning, yet fluff up and aren't a soupy mess. Also not too hard and tough to be a choke hazard. You can obviously make them soupy, but if your guys don't like that texture you could soak with less water, cold water instead of warm, etc. I know you've mentioned before they don't like a lot of different feeds so not sure if this could be an option.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

@rambo99 do have a Triple Crown dealer within driving distance?

They sell a few different varieties of bagged hay and alfalfa that you might check into. I doubt they are cheap but with only two horses you might be able to afford feeding one of these forages, along with your regular hay to stretch your hay out longer.

Their Natural Balance forages have added minerals that do include selenium but Triple Crown has always been good about listing amounts and their formulas are fixed.

https://www.triplecrownfeed.com/forages/

*I forgot what you said --- will they eat Timothy pellets?*. If so, then I agree with @egrogan to try the pellets or cubes and mix a quality, vit/min supplement in.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

My apologies if you mentioned this....
But since your horses are "thinner" and refusing to eat much of anything...
_Why are they not wearing blankets or at the least turnout sheets to keep the weather at bay?_
They are burning calories they can not afford to lose staying warm when your picture shows snow accumulation on the ground...
_Get some turnout blankets/sheets and cover those bodies._
Every degree of warmth saved is calories not burned keeping warm = weight on the frame you are fighting to maintain.
Brush those bodies of the bulk of dirt and cover them up...if they are wet, towel them dry then cover...

:runninghorse2:...
_jmo..._


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

@*walkinthewalk* , I like that Triple Crown chopped forage product you posted- many years ago, at the first barn where I boarded, in the coldest part of winter the horses had to go all night long stalled with just a few flakes of hay (no on-site farm hands and the barn assistant left at 7pm and didn't get back until 7am to feed again)...so I was able to get that chopped forage added in a feed bin as a "hay stretcher" to help. Reading that link you shared, looks like it could also be a complete hay replacer-sounds like a potentially promising option that's different from a pellet or cube. Just checked out my regular feed/tack shop (which tends to run pricey on feed) a 40lb bag is $20- so yes, that could get pricey quickly if that was the sole forage source.


These are the feeding instructions from the site:
"Triple Crown Premium forages *should be fed at a minimum rate of 1% to 1.5% of body weight (10 lbs. to 15 lbs. on a 1000 lb. horse) per day if using as a complete hay replacement. Feed 4 lbs. to 6 lbs. per day if using as a supplement to normal long stem hay*. Feed separately in a feed bin or bucket, or mix with your grain ration. Mixing may help reduce rapid consumption (bolting) and slow the digestive passage through the gut to maximize digestion."


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Totally agree with the blankets, your horses are burning up calories just to stay warm and they can't afford to do that.
Even with the cold thing sorted though, a horse that's clearly not getting enough to eat to maintain a decent weight shouldn't be as picky as yours are.
Without wanting to cause offence, your horses are thin to the point that if you lived in a lot of areas where they were more visible to the public you'd be getting calls to local animal welfare about them.
The chopped forages, as already mentioned, can be fed from a bin of some sort. You can add grass pellets, rice bran, complete feed pellets, oats etc to the forage.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

Both horses have always been picky about feeds even when in good weight. They always eat hay even less then great hay.

They have hay all the time now. Quality is poor but weather was a huge factor this haying season. Very few farmers put up good hay. Have plenty of hay for winter that's not an issue. 

Feed store has bagged chopped forage 50 lbs for 16$ will get a bag tomorrow. Feeding 10 lbs of alfalfa at night flakes weigh 5 to 6 lbs each. 
@jaydee not offended I realize I could be turned in for horse's bad condition. We live on a dirt road and horse's can't be seen from road unless in pasture. 

Yes I have turnout blankets when outside for night I blanket. When in barn I don't barn is warmer then outside by 10 degrees. Black horse gets hot sweaty under blanket if sun is out during day. Only have one weight of blankets. Don't have sheets or light weight blankets. Current blankets are medium weights.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

So hubby picked up a bag of chopped forage alfalfa/timothy mix it kinda damp/moist stuff. Gave them 1/2 pound with calf manna & oats mixed in. They ate a little bit then walked away to eat hay . It's only to supplement hay not replace it not at 16$ a bag. From looks of it they haven't eaten any more of it.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

rambo99 said:


> So hubby picked up a bag of chopped forage alfalfa/timothy mix it kinda damp/moist stuff. Gave them 1/2 pound with calf manna & oats mixed in. They ate a little bit then walked away to eat hay . It's only to supplement hay not replace it not at 16$ a bag. From looks of it they haven't eaten any more of it.


Holy Crow -- your two have to hold the record on the entire planet for being picky.

I know the vet said no ulcers but I still find that hard to believe.

I hate saying this, especially with Thanksgiving & Christmas rolling up on us BUT, can you afford $109 for thirty days of Succeed PASTE?

https://www.chicksaddlery.com/succeed-digestive-oral-paste-30-doses

That would be 15 days for each horse. If gastric and/or colonic (hind gut) ulcers are the issue you would know by then and hopefully could afford another thirty day box, giving them each a thirty day treatment.

I feed the granules but my horses don't even get on the picky scale compared to yours:|. 

With the tubes of paste, you would have control of getting it down them and maybe give them a piece of Apple afterward --- if they eat apples, lol

This stuff works because it was the only thing on the planet that stopped Duke from having multiple colics when he was diagnosed with lipomas in the hind gut. I kept him on Succeed for around four years --- every day:|

I have Joker on it now and will keep him on it until the end of December as we are to have a hard frost this weekend and I am de-worming both horses. Joker has stopped biting his stomach, stopped swishing his tail when I run my hand down his tummy, and the hard line in the back of his barrel is gone. He never goes off his feed -- for anything, lol.

I say all that as a testimonial to spending all that money, lollol. Respectfully I say that, given their condition and the poor quality hay you have been forced to feed, I would be mind-boggled if they do not have one type of ulcer or the other or maybe both.

Omeprazole will NOT treat colonic ulcers and it's at least $150 (I think it's gone up again) in my area to get a 30 day prescription from the vet. Succeed is forty dollars cheaper, does not need a prescription, and treats both types of ulcers


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

walkinthewalk said:


> Holy Crow -- your two have to hold the record on the entire planet for being picky.
> 
> I know the vet said no ulcers but I still find that hard to believe.
> 
> ...


I'll treat them with the succeed and see what happens. To be honest i'm about ready to say heck with them and let them just eat hay...and hope they gain weight. Both are blanketed now so that should help with the calorie deal. I've got 4 or 5 bags of feed now that they don't like or won't eat,not buying anymore of the chopped forage IF they won't eat it. Only thing that eat without fail is hay & pasture. 

I'm beyond frustrated with both horse's the i don't like feed crew. My old guy wasn't picky at all. Sometimes he didn't like his feed wet. But for most part a few shredded apples mixed in and he ate it up no problem. 

These two boys you'd think i was trying to poison them.:icon_rolleyes:

With the succeed they have no choice on if they get it or not,syringe it in and tuff luck. I'll give them a peppermint after to make it a good thing.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

rambo99 said:


> With the succeed they have no choice on if they get it or not,syringe it in and tuff luck. I'll give them a peppermint after to make it a good thing.


Have a halter and lead rope on them, in case they try to walk off and spit it out, lol

Get the tube as far back on the tongue as you can (like you would wormer) then release the Succeed.

For a few years, my Arab was good at holding stuff in his mouth, then walk off and spit it out. I would rub his throat with one hand and lead him with the other until he finally swallowed what I had given him. He could hold out on me for a good five minutes every time, lollol

It took him a few years to figure out the worm meds weren't going to kill him and he finally reached a point to where I could walk up to him in the pasture and worm him without using a halter --- just a pocket full of treats, lollol

Good luck with this. I hope the Succeed does the trick and they will start eating something . 

Give them 3-4 days of Succeed, then try them with the bagged forage first. Hopefully that will go well and you can progress to your bagged products


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

I agree that there's something medical going on if thin, ribby horses are refusing all types of grain. I would also recommend the Succeed for both. Also I'd want a decent equine dentist (not a run-of-the-mill large animal vet) to check their teeth, and I'd probably have bloodwork pulled as well. There may also be a vitamin/mineral imbalance or underlying illness going on. Get on top of it. Those are not 'thin' horses, those are ribby, unhealthy horses. Something is wrong.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I wouldn't give up with the feed as a lot of horses can be funny about something new.
I don't know what feeds you've tried but maybe mixing a small amount of one of the sweet feeds in with the rest might encourage them. 
Their extreme weight loss combined with lack of normal appetite is a good indicator that's somethings not right


Have you ever tried Red Cell? 
Its a good source of iron and B12 - if your horses have bleeding ulcers they could well be anemic and that and B12 deficiency causes loss of appetite


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

Vet i have is the best i can get find ,hauling to a vet thats 5 hours away isn't happening this time of year. Horse's were scoped a month ago or so don't really recall when. Black gelding scoped clean pally was also clean of ulcers gastric wise. Blood was taken also nothing was found no illnesses nothing blood work was good normal. That was to the tune of 968$ farm call was 200$ so having vet back now is just not in the cards. Teeth were also floated and are in good shape.

They eat hay just fine it's grain/feed that's always been an issue since i've owned, them and before i ever owned them. They act fine attitude wise not depressed feeling good run around buck play. Yes they are thin i realize that but was a tough summer/fall hard riding bugs were horrible and was hot humid. So they dropped off weight. 

Ordered the succeed will try that on both. No i never have tried red cell could try it got nothing to lose. @jaydee is it a liquid supplement ? so i can syringe it in them. 

Also on the succeed it says to give twice a day for the first week. I ordered 2 boxes of it being i'm treating 2 horse's. Hubby was fine with me spending the money on it so i went ahead and ordered 2 cheaper then a vet bill. @walkinthewalk did you do the twice a day succeed to start off also? 

Not sure blankets are helping at least the one horse he's shaking when colder at night. The black gelding seems fine with blanket he feels warm under his blanket. Pally feels cold chilly under his and he's the one shaking at night time when temps drop into teens.


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

Seeing them shivering is no good. Might need to double up on blankets (liner plus waterproof medium or heavy weight on top) and/or consider a neck cover for the cold one. My one mare can't stand her neck getting wet when it's cold and as she got older, started shivering if her neck was left uncovered. She's a weird shape (very narrow through her chest but wider in shoulders/belly) so rain/sleet/snow was getting down through the neck of the blanket, soaking her on her chest and shoulders and making her miserable. The neck hood took care of that, thankfully. Having a blanket with a detachable neck for her is necessary most of the winter, and it does keep her comfortable. Made me so sad to see her shiver.


Is their hay free choice? If not, and you leave pellets/chopped forage out overnight, they _still _don't eat it even when that chilly? Do you have the option to lock them in stalls overnight with food in front of them so they can't wander away? I really don't like have mine stalled for any period of time, but if I needed them to eat more I would probably try that. Really sorry this is such a tough one to solve, wish I had better suggestions.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

rambo99 said:


> Also on the succeed it says to give twice a day for the first week. I ordered 2 boxes of it being i'm treating 2 horse's. Hubby was fine with me spending the money on it so i went ahead and ordered 2 cheaper then a vet bill. @walkinthewalk did you do the twice a day succeed to start off also?
> 
> Not sure blankets are helping at least the one horse he's shaking when colder at night. The black gelding seems fine with blanket he feels warm under his blanket. Pally feels cold chilly under his and he's the one shaking at night time when temps drop into teens.


That's great news on the blood work and scoping for gastric ulcers.

I had got to wondering about botulism from the poor hay but I'm not sure of symptoms but you said they are playing and moving. I just read about three horses in Connecticut getting botulism that were not on round bales, so it had me over thinking your situation:|

Yes, I started Joker on Succeed twice daily for the first 10 days; seven days is good but I forgot to look at the calendar, lol

Do you think your one horse's blanket isn't waterproof anymore and he's getting wet under it? Either that, or as @egrogan commented, maybe your horse is getting cold on its neck --- that makes a lot of sense

Here's hoping things get turned around very soon:cowboy:


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Yes the Red Cell is a liquid that you could syringe in if needed. Its sweetened so horses will usually have no objection to it. I wouldn't use long term as its high in iron which a healthy horse shouldn't need but if anemia and/or B12 deficiency is contributing then you would start to see a difference after a few weeks.

You could feed an antacid with a buffer like U-Gard - that might help.

If possible I would also suggest you stable the horses at night - shut them in and leave their feeds in a manger or feed tub and plenty of hay. Hopefully your stable is relatively vermin free compared to the pasture which helps to remove potential for rodents etc to wander around in their hay and taint it. 
That will give you a good idea of what they're both eating.
One of my horses doesn't always eat all her 'bucket' food in one go but she'll always finish it off by morning. If it was left outside and some wildlife got in it she wouldn't touch it again. I find the same with hay with all of them. What they don't eat off the ground in one day they'll never eat

If you think they're eating plenty of hay and still looking thin then something is wrong with the hay or wrong with them.

I don't think they have botulism because they'd be struggling to swallow by now and showing strong signs of muscle weakness
That suggestion did make me think about Weil's disease though as that causes loss of appetite and weight loss among other things but if this weight loss has been going on for a long time I'd expect them to be far more ill by now.

A heavy burden of encysted small strongyles can cause permanent damage so even if they were dewormed with Quest (moxidectin) if they'd had them for a long time prior to that it could be the reason they're so unthrifty


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Do these horses have access to a lot of fresh, lush pasture in the summer? If not, I'd consider supplementing Vitamin E and seeing if that makes a difference. Something is going on. Lots of horses are ridden hard in the summer, it's been a bad bug/humidity/mud year all over, but most don't drop weight like that. You may also consider giving them free-choice alfalfa. If nothing else works, alfalfa works wonders for adding weight in cold weather on thin horses. You can get by with stemmy hay as part of their roughage, but not all of it. If the hay is more than 6-9 months old, there is very little nutritional value in it, especially if it's coarse grass hay.


If a horse is shivering under his blanket, he needs more blanket. Might have to get a heavier turnout blanket for him, or try layers.


I hope you can figure something out. How distressing to have horses that won't pick up weight and won't eat :-(


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

Horse's were on lush pasture all summer long just recently they were taken off pasture. Because i feed round bales horse's have been vaccinated for botulism. Also up to date on vaccines including rabies do a 5 way vaccine every year. 

Blanket on pally who's getting cold is water proof yet blanket is new. No wetness under blanket at chest/neck he is dry,also dry under blanket on back,and hindquarters. They ate the chopped forage tonight i didn't add any kind of feed to it. Their eating hay fairly well it's not stemmy just was rained on, it's this years hay. The alfalfa/grass mix is stemmy,the just grass is not stemmy. 


Yes i can put them in barn at night so they can be in there own stalls. Have had them in when its been rainy and have left their grain/feed in pan for them. Grain/feed is still in pan next morning maybe a little gets eaten but not much. I don't like stalling them if i can avoid it, think it just better if they are outside able to move around more. 

Wormed with quest plus didn't see any worms in manure after, so don't think they were loaded with worms. 

Can put another blanket on pally have a medium weight turnout i could use to double up. Do not own a neck cover for current blanket so can't do that. 

Will get the red cell here local feed store carries it. Will for sure do succeed twice a day for 10 days, will mark it on calendar when i start them on it. I know i will forget when i started it otherwise. Here's the boys with their blankets on.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

This sure is a mystery for all that you do for them and all the mo ey you have spent.

Your husband may want to reach thru your IPad and throttle me but ------

How do you feel about alternative medicine?

Here is the link to Dr. Xie's Jing Tang web site. https://store.tcvmherbal.com/Default.asp?

Key in your zip code in the green bar on the left side of the page and see if there is anyone available in your district. These folks are generally willing to travel to help an animal and try to keep their road fee reasonable.

Even if you only find a small animal vet (as opposed to equine or large animal), I would still call and talk to them.

My equine chiro is a DVM who took the holistic route and has studied Chinese medicine her entire life (she's 60. There have been times when I KNOW something is off with Rusty and the traditional vet can't find anything wrong even after he has run blood tests.

I call her and she finds something every time; with Rusty it is always digestive or respiratory. Right now he has managed to give himself a respiratory issue that I figure is from running full bore across 20 acres because he lost sight of the other horse. He gets sweated up with all his winter hair and cools down too fast; our finicky weather doesn't help his cause either

She put him on an herbal compound to loosen the crap up and two days later a HUGE hunk of white snot was filling his left nostril when he came in for the night.

I'm not saying herbs might be the answer for your horse, although that is a possibility. I am trying to say is that true alternative medicine vets can often find what's wrong when a traditional vet cannot

You have done everything you know to do and spent enough money to buy a small tractor, I just think it might be time to look to a qualified alternative medicine practitioner


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

jaydee said:


> Yes the Red Cell is a liquid that you could syringe in if needed. Its sweetened so horses will usually have no objection to it. I wouldn't use long term as its high in iron which a healthy horse shouldn't need but if anemia and/or B12 deficiency is contributing then you would start to see a difference after a few weeks.
> 
> You could feed an antacid with a buffer like U-Gard - that might help.
> 
> ...


Agree with everything BUT:

OP will be starting both horses on Succeed as soon as it arrives. It addresses both front and hind gut issues. Feeding the U-Gard at the same time would be counter-productive. I would still keep the U-Gard in mind, however

I am doing a slow head nod in favor of the Red Cell but Red Cell always makes me nervous unless a vet flat out says a horse is anemic and needs to have it. If @rambo99 does decide to feed it, it will likely be one more thing that needs syringed down both horses, as these two seem to be sure anything in a feed pan equals poison, lollol

It would have to be given to them at a different time than the Succeed. Rambo really would earn her screen name because she would be out in that pasture with syringes full of stuff more than she's in the house:Angel:


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

greentree said:


> I know this is not a popular thought anymore, but I don’t care. This is how Man O’ War, Bold Ruler, and EVERY other successful horse born (before Purina decided we should feed horses the SAME junk food they SELL to humans) was fed.
> 
> Get the BEST oats you can find. WHOLE oats. The “racehorse” oats are bigger, so they have more meat inside. Get a bag of Calf Manna, since your hay is not great. Make sure they have loose salt. It is only $5 for a 50 lb bag at tractor supply. Use a small bucket or a rubber tub and fill it . If it gets wet, no big deal. The horses will slurp it if they want the salt.


I don't know that those who feed race horses should be our role models for good equine nutrition. They don't have the best track record for ulcer prevention, good hooves, bone health or anything health wise other than winning races. I guess if success means winning, it is true. But we're talking about health and longevity. 
I personally bought into the "oats are healthy" propaganda and fed my hard keeper oats. They did cause acidic hind gut and she did founder.

Here's what I learned from the reading I did after this experience:
Feeding things that are high in grain such as Calf Manna (lots of corn, high NSC at around 30%) or oats can be counterproductive when trying to put weight on horses. 

The type of bacteria in the intestines that digest grain are different from the type of bacteria that digest roughage such as hay. If you feed a lot of grain, the intestines will produce more of the bacteria that helps digest grain, and the hay will be digested poorly. Since the bulk of your diet should be hay, you're essentially making sure that the bulk of the diet is not digested well.

You would be far better off feeding things that are either digested as roughage, such as beet pulp, or by adding calories in the form of fats such as rice bran or oils. These things do not change the way horses digest hay, so you get the least wastage of what you are putting into the horse's system. Feeding grain also promotes an acidic gut and ulcers.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

Think i'll start with the succeed see what happens. Have a tub of U guard and horse's won't touch the stuff, well they won't eat the feed it's put in either. Their eating hay and the chopped forage so i'll leave it well enough alone,plus getting 10 lbs of alfalfa hay at night feeding. They were in barn for the night put a scoop of senior feed in their feed pans,hardly any was eaten this AM. 

The pally horse did a lot of walking around in stall over night,he was marching around in there when i went out to feed,let them outside. He was pretty warm under the blankets almost damp feeling. Think i will leave him naked when in barn,he does tend to stall walk and gets pretty ramped up with it. 


I typed in zip code on the site @walkinthewalk gave no one in my area. There are equine ones 4 to 5 hours south of here though. Can talk to one of them see what they have to say.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

If they're eating the chopped forage then try either Triple Crown Safe Starch chopped forage or Greenmeadow chopped forage as both also contain added minerals and vitamins
I prefer the Greenmeadow
Both companies would probably send you a sample if you call them

Walkinthewalk - my U-Gard suggestion was if the Succeed didn't work but sounds as if its already a fail!!

I would only feed cooked oats to these horses - not whole oats or even crushed or bruised oats. They're far more digestible so less risk of hindgut ulcers

In the UK we can get micronized or cooked/steamed flaked maize (corn) which is far more digestible than any of the corn sold for horses I've seen in the US. I would risk feeding it to a thin horse to get weight back on it but I've never seen it over here


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

You know, we used to use that steamed flaked corn in feed mixes.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

I tried the cooked oats added in with the chopped forage. Did 2 cups for each horse. Black gelding ate chopped forage and the oats.

Pally ate some but was shaking while eating almost like he was cold. Wasn't cold I felt under his blankets and he was warm. But was shaking while eating it. Doesn't shake when eating just hay. 

He only ate 1/4 of the chopped forage & oats. With no feed added he eats all of it. Also doesn't shake when there's no feed added.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Did you just bring him inside from the cold to feed him and he started shaking as he ate?


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

COWCHICK77 said:


> Did you just bring him inside from the cold to feed him and he started shaking as he ate?


Yes I had just brought him in. Had hay to eat first then was fed the chopped forage/oats mix. He can't possibly be cold he's double blanketed. 

Has hay to eat 24/7 so never without hay. Find it real weird, only does the shaking when eating grain.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

rambo99 said:


> Yes I had just brought him in. Had hay to eat first then was fed the chopped forage/oats mix. He can't possibly be cold he's double blanketed.
> 
> Has hay to eat 24/7 so never without hay. Find it real weird, only does the shaking when eating grain.


It's normal. I can bring my horses in on a really cold morning or even not that cold (below freezing or negative temps) and when I catch them they are comfortable outside whether they are blanketed or not. As soon as they start eating their feed in the buckets they shiver. It doesnt last long. 
Even on those really cold mornings and they may have to take a ride in an open trailer they dont shiver like they do as soon as they start eating after being brought in.
It's not the same kind of frozen, wet cold that requires more blankets.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

COWCHICK77 said:


> It's normal. I can bring my horses in on a really cold morning or even not that cold (below freezing or negative temps) and when I catch them they are comfortable outside whether they are blanketed or not. As soon as they start eating their feed in the buckets they shiver. It doesnt last long.
> Even on those really cold mornings and they may have to take a ride in an open trailer they dont shiver like they do as soon as they start eating after being brought in.
> It's not the same kind of frozen, wet cold that requires more blankets.


This was something he's never done so wasn't sure. Wasn't going to add more or heavier blankets he wasn't cold, he was warm under current blankets. Thought maybe the eating grain was causing him discomfort, so he was shivering. I was obviously overthinking it. 

I did pick up a equilix tub and they won't touch it. Will have the succeed tomorrow sometime,hopefully in 3 or 4 days they will eat feed better than currently.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

rambo99 said:


> This was something he's never done so wasn't sure. Wasn't going to add more or heavier blankets he wasn't cold, he was warm under current blankets. Thought maybe the eating grain was causing him discomfort, so he was shivering. I was obviously overthinking it.
> 
> I did pick up a equilix tub and they won't touch it. Will have the succeed tomorrow sometime,hopefully in 3 or 4 days they will eat feed better than currently.


I understand your concern especially if they're on the thin side and the weather has been cold.
I've never thought about it being discomfort as many different horses over years have done the same thing. I'm sure someone smarter than myself can explain why, but I always assumed it was blood going to their digestive system?

Back to the Equilix tubs..
The tubs aren't going to put weight on them. If they were in good weight and you had to feed mediocre hay supplement tubs help them utilize the lesser quality hay better but you aren't going to gain anything. I hope that makes sense.

Your horses are pretty picky so I'm not surprised they don't like the Equilix. They don't use molasses and sugar to get them to eat it as most use. (Same with salt, put salt out with the tubs)Even my not so picky horses took a couple days before they got hooked. Sales person gave me the loose version to feed mixed with their feed to get them used to it.

I agree with what has been said before, try the Succeed. I'm never been one to jump on the ulcer band wagon but after my sorrel horse was diagnosed and treated it made a huge difference in his weight and attitude. He wasnt even in bad shape but it has made a huge difference. Everyone has noticed the difference in his appearance.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

@walkinthewalk I talked to the one vet in the cities suggested to try some supplements,would have to find where i wrote down what they were. Probably not going to buy supplements being horse at least the one won't eat most stuff,just not willing to spend big $$$ on something horse won't eat. 

Got the succeed today gave first dosing to both boys.Pally isn't good about being given stuff by syringe, so might get interesting doing this 2 times a day. If this doesn't change things ,then i guess horse's will just be getting hay and the chopped forage. They are staying about the same weight haven't lost any ,maybe have gained a little bit.

I just can't keep throwing money at things to not get results. Xmas is coming and my kids have worked really hard all year to earn gifts they REALLY want. Maybe after the holidays i'll look into hauling horse's down to the cities to this holistic vet,but my kids come first right now,i love my horse's and do everything possible for them within reason.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Hopefully the Succeed will do something for them

If you can find where you wrote the supplements down, Im curious what the vet suggested

You're doing all you can do, it would be great if the horses can go on the glide path for the holidays with no weight loss or other health issues


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