# Riding is not a real sport vent, part deux



## Acadianartist

I met with my daughter's phys ed teacher last week for parent-teacher meetings. Very much a jock type, he said she is doing well, but he had some concerns about her "training plan". See, each student has to put together a training plan this year. They set goals that are aligned with a sport they practice. She chose riding, of course. He told me that it doesn't count because it has to have at least 15 minutes of cardio per session, and that in riding, the horse does all the work. Yep, he said that. TO. MY. FACE. 

I asked if he had ridden before and he said yes. I asked what height he was jumping. He explained that he had done some trail riding while on vacation. I explained to him that what my daughter -- a competitive show hunter/ jumper who has 8 years of experience riding -- does is quite different. A lesson consist of about 10 minutes warm-up, 30-40 minutes of trot/canter/jump work, then 10 minutes of cool down, and that when she trots, she posts, which means up-down-up-down non-stop for longer than I can go without being out of breath (ok, I'm not in the greatest of shapes, but I'm not terribly out of shape either). He did not appear to believe me and insisted that it was all in the leg, and that it was muscular, not aerobic, since all you have to do is follow the motion of the horse. 

So today, my daughter gave him a Christmas card containing a gift certificate for one riding lesson with my daughter's coach at one of her own lessons. I chatted with the coach before arranging it and explained to her why I wanted a beginner to do a lesson in an advanced group (we do not expect him to be able to keep up, but he needs to know how it feels). She agreed (with a big smile on her face) and said worse comes to worse, she'll put him on a lunge line at a trot for 15 minutes on each side. Obviously we don't want anyone to get hurt, but I felt that this is the only way I will convince him. I'm not even doing it just for my daughter, but for every girl who was ever told her sport is not a real sport because "the horse does all the work". 

I can't wait to see it!


----------



## walkinthewalk

I hope he uses the gift certificate because I can’t wait for your update


----------



## Acadianartist

walkinthewalk said:


> I hope he uses the gift certificate because I can’t wait for your update


He was quite excited about it and told my daughter he is looking forward to it! Because you know, it's EASY and he will look so cool up on that horse, not working hard at all... :rofl:

Honestly, I just want him to feel it for himself. I get that it doesn't look hard, and if you've only ever walked down a trail on a nose-to-tail horse, you might only have sore thighs at the end. I just want to educate him. I can't help but feel that equestrian sports are often thought-of as easier because girls prefer them. And that just really rubs me the wrong way.


----------



## Acadianartist

Oh, and in the meantime, if any of you know of solid studies on the athleticism of competitive riders, I'd love to email him a few of those so he can prepare...


----------



## SueC

Do you play cricket in Canada? Because that's classified as a sport, and I don't see it, it's >90% standing around... Waiting interminably to bat, and then, when you're fielding, waiting interminably for a ball to fly in your direction... OMG, the boredom when I was a student... :ZZZ::ZZZ::ZZZ:

Horse-riding is far more active. I suppose that sports teacher has never groomed or saddled his own horse or dragged a lot of gear around either? You could also give him a complimentary mucking-out voucher to see how he is with a wheelbarrow. :Angel:

I am sooooo looking forward to your lesson report! :twisted:

PS on horrid teachers: A neighbour with horses was outraged because her daughter's geography teacher told her daughter when returning her assignment, "This isn't an assignment, this is horsesh!t." Extraordinary - he used that term!!! Anyway, she was fuming and thinking of packaging up some fresh horse manure in a shopping bag and leaving it on his desk with a little gift card on it, "_This_ is horsesh!t! Just so you know the difference!" :evil:


----------



## walkinthewalk

Being a PE teacher he should know anything that is being made to look easy is because the person is doing it correctly. Doing something correctly ( in any sport) takes stamina.

I’ll betcha @phantomhorse13 would beg to differ with him regarding endurance riding


----------



## Acadianartist

SueC said:


> PS on horrid teachers: A neighbour with horses was outraged because her daughter's geography teacher told her daughter when returning her assignment, "This isn't an assignment, this is horsesh!t." Extraordinary - he used that term!!! Anyway, she was fuming and thinking of packaging up some fresh horse manure in a shopping bag and leaving it on his desk with a little gift card on it, "_This_ is horsesh!t! Just so you know the difference!" :evil:


That's hilarious! I would have had a hard time restraining myself from doing that.


----------



## SueC

I totally would have done it!


----------



## Acadianartist

Also, he will get to fetch his horse from the pasture, groom it and tack it up before his lesson. Everyone is required to do this. We do not have our horses all ready and tacked up for us! As for picking manure, well, everyone knows that you're responsible for any messes your horse makes in the cross-ties! 

But I would sure like to invite him to the daily muck-out or perhaps for hay season!


----------



## SueC

I hope the coach makes him trot without stirrups! :rofl:


----------



## mkmurphy81

I can not wait for this update! I'm sure your daughter's coach knows just which horse to use, too. You know, the one that won't actually hurt anyone but has a very rough trot and makes a newbie work for everything.


----------



## tinyliny

He, and to a certain extent, you are missing the point. Sport is not just exercise! It's about self discipline, and setting goals. And taking direction and competing with other within a clearly defined set of rules. It's about making regular commitments and KEEPING THEM. About respecting the coach, respecting your equipment, and overall, respecting you "team mate", in this case a 1000+ lb animal , with its own mind and free will. "Sport" is not exercising, It is about growing as a human being and becoming the best that you can become.


----------



## boots

He must have slept through, or skipped, the lectures in college about how muscles work. Since muscles use oxygen as a big part of the Kreb's cycle (the process by which our body turns nutrition into energy) during aerobic activity, riding and specifically the posting trot you describe, is definitely an aerobic activity.

I used to get criticized, and my riding and ranch work belittled, by my co-workers in a therapy department. I've been there 3 and 1/2 years. They quit when I won a fitness challenge (twice), am more flexible than them, and can last longer doing planks than they. All while being about 15 years older than the next closest, and being over 60.

I heard the "not doing 'real' aerobic exercise" baloney. My response was "Kreb's cycle."


----------



## Acadianartist

tinyliny said:


> He, and to a certain extent, you are missing the point. Sport is not just exercise! It's about self discipline, and setting goals. And taking direction and competing with other within a clearly defined set of rules. It's about making regular commitments and KEEPING THEM. About respecting the coach, respecting your equipment, and overall, respecting you "team mate", in this case a 1000+ lb animal , with its own mind and free will. "Sport" is not exercising, It is about growing as a human being and becoming the best that you can become.


Yes, but he wants aerobic exercise. I mean, the other stuff is fine, but you know, not like running back and forth over imaginary lines chasing a dead animal skin. :icon_rolleyes:


----------



## Acadianartist

boots said:


> He must have slept through, or skipped, the lectures in college about how muscles work. Since muscles use oxygen as a big part of the Kreb's cycle (the process by which our body turns nutrition into energy) during aerobic activity, riding and specifically the posting trot you describe, is definitely an aerobic activity.
> 
> I used to get criticized, and my riding and ranch work belittled, by my co-workers in a therapy department. I've been there 3 and 1/2 years. They quit when I won a fitness challenge (twice), am more flexible than them, and can last longer doing planks than they. All while being about 15 years older than the next closest, and being over 60.
> 
> I heard the "not doing 'real' aerobic exercise" baloney. My response was "Kreb's cycle."


Exactly. I did some reading after our conversation, and while I understand that you may not experience aerobic activity everytime you get on a horse, I am absolutely convinced that what my daughter does (sustained trot/canter/jumping for over half an hour) is aerobic activity. From a theoretical perspective (which you point out), and a more experiential perspective (ie, I am out of breath in every lesson!), there is no doubt in my mind.

My biggest concern, honestly, is that he will be so entirely incompetent, that she won't be able to keep him trotting for 15 minutes straight. But the idea of him doing a lesson with my daughter is that he will not be able to keep up with her (he's fit, but will not have the same muscles in the same places). 

Kudos to you winning a fitness challenge twice! I can honestly say that at almost 50, I am in the best shape of my life because of horses.


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians

I SOOOO can't wait to hear about how he manages to dismount because by that time, he's going to be feeling it in all the 'right' places and is also going to be having trouble walking on his legs that have turned to goo. Couldn't happen to a nicer guy.


----------



## Saigold

Can’t wait for the update!! I’ve heard this line a million times, mostly from people who never been on a horse. I’ve just learned to ignore the ignorant people. As most say that just to ruffle feathers. But in this case you can actually show this guy that you don’t just sit there.


----------



## LoriF

I would make him think that every rider has to muck their own horses stall out after the ride before putting the horse back. I would also make sure that he grooms his horse properly with a good currying for about ten minutes or when no more dust comes out of the coat, whichever comes last and then brushing and picking feet. Give him a horse that likes to lean on you.

About ten minutes of straight posting and then another five of sitting the trot on a really bouncy horse. Another five of cantering and back to another five of posting the trot, of course on the right diagonal because he has to be able to help his teammate out. And then, another grooming session after the horse is cooled off. Oops, and Whisker's feed bin is empty, "Can you grab that fifty lb sack of feed and bring it over here and that bale of hay while you are at it please?"

Boy, would I plan for this. Too bad it's not hot out.


----------



## SueC

...I would like to see some footage of him the following day... can your daughter sneak some, @Acadianartist? :Angel:

..and...



Acadianartist said:


> I mean, the other stuff is fine, but you know, not like running back and forth over imaginary lines chasing a dead animal skin. :icon_rolleyes:


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


----------



## egrogan

Haha, research challenge accepted. Here's some quick results:

Comparison to other types of physical activity: https://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/09/05/ask-well-is-horseback-riding-good-exercise/

As you said, walking along on a tourist trail ride is not going to be the same as really _riding_. Riding for an extended period at the more intense gaits of long trotting and cantering weekly give you exercise/health benefits: https://digitalcommons.wku.edu/ijesab/vol2/iss7/44/

And of course you could use any of those exercising apps to track/compare various activities. I use Endomondo to track (though mostly look at mileage, not the calories, etc.). This blogger used Fitbit. Of course I think they're all probably inaccurate compared to measurement tools in a real study, but at least they should be inaccurate across all activities so if your goal is using it to compare the relative benefit of one activity to any other, the comparisons should be useful enough.


I love that you got him a lesson and that he was game to do it. I hope it's an eye-opening experience for him, and it will be a great story at school I'm sure!


----------



## Aprilswissmiss

Every time someone would say "but riding horses must be so easy," I'd say, "Pretend you're riding a motorcycle, except your foot rests will sway under your weight, the handle bars are flimsy strips of leather, you have no back rest, your seat either rocks back and forth or jolts you up and down, your legs have to grip the sides to keep from slipping any which way, and there's always a chance it might decide not to start, or get the accelerator jammed, or not actually turn when you turn the handle bars, or unexpectedly leap forward, backward, or sideways right out from under you." They'd shut up pretty quick.


----------



## its lbs not miles

Acadianartist said:


> I met with my daughter's phys ed teacher last week for parent-teacher meetings. Very much a jock type, he said she is doing well, but he had some concerns about her "training plan". See, each student has to put together a training plan this year. They set goals that are aligned with a sport they practice. She chose riding, of course. He told me that it doesn't count because it has to have at least 15 minutes of cardio per session, and that in riding, the horse does all the work. Yep, he said that. TO. MY. FACE.
> 
> I asked if he had ridden before and he said yes. I asked what height he was jumping. He explained that he had done some trail riding while on vacation. I explained to him that what my daughter -- a competitive show hunter/ jumper who has 8 years of experience riding -- does is quite different. A lesson consist of about 10 minutes warm-up, 30-40 minutes of trot/canter/jump work, then 10 minutes of cool down, and that when she trots, she posts, which means up-down-up-down non-stop for longer than I can go without being out of breath (ok, I'm not in the greatest of shapes, but I'm not terribly out of shape either). He did not appear to believe me and insisted that it was all in the leg, and that it was muscular, not aerobic, since all you have to do is follow the motion of the horse.
> 
> So today, my daughter gave him a Christmas card containing a gift certificate for one riding lesson with my daughter's coach at one of her own lessons. I chatted with the coach before arranging it and explained to her why I wanted a beginner to do a lesson in an advanced group (we do not expect him to be able to keep up, but he needs to know how it feels). She agreed (with a big smile on her face) and said worse comes to worse, she'll put him on a lunge line at a trot for 15 minutes on each side. Obviously we don't want anyone to get hurt, but I felt that this is the only way I will convince him. I'm not even doing it just for my daughter, but for every girl who was ever told her sport is not a real sport because "the horse does all the work".
> 
> I can't wait to see it!


It's an understandable misconception. Fits right up there with water or snow skiing not being a sport (you're just riding on the skis after all) ****.

Rather than trying to explain to this lame brain his mistake tell him he has a standing invitation to come riding with me for a few days (and I'll go easy on him). This is the best time of year for it around here. I'll take him an a leisurely 3 day ride of 20-30 miles each day. Nothing difficult (won't go faster than a trot) nothing fancy and I'll put him on my lead mare who is a solid ride. After that he can tell me how his muscles did not get a workout (as he walks painfully with stiff legs for bit after each days ride ****), because "the horse did all the work". Actually, unless he's been doing some riding, he probably won't feel up to riding on the second day and already need recovery time for some stiff, sore muscles LOL. Ok, truth is I'd set him up, but just by doing normal riding. We'd do a fare amount of trotting, because on Val he would have to post (no one sits any of Val's trots...like riding a jackhammer) and after posting for 10 miles or more he will likely shut up about it not being exercise. He'd probably come away feeling like a 5K run is easier than a 10 mile trot (even if the horse is doing all the work).


----------



## AnitaAnne

subbing...


----------



## Foxhunter

A boyfriend of min was very athletic. He had boxed, done motor sports, run et al, then he found horses and found it a total challenge to his fitness and ability. 

He was hooked!


----------



## gottatrot

I can't wait to hear how the lesson goes.

When I run at 6 miles per hour, my heart rate is around 130-140. That is aerobic exercise for me. When I am long trotting or cantering my horse down the beach, my heart rate is the same. It is aerobic exercise. If you don't do it regularly, you will not be in good enough shape to sustain the activity. Galloping can be anaerobic activity on some horses, and you will end up with muscle fatigue and lactic acid, needing to slow down to an aerobic rate again.


----------



## Acadianartist

egrogan said:


> Haha, research challenge accepted. Here's some quick results:
> 
> Comparison to other types of physical activity: https://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/09/05/ask-well-is-horseback-riding-good-exercise/
> 
> As you said, walking along on a tourist trail ride is not going to be the same as really _riding_. Riding for an extended period at the more intense gaits of long trotting and cantering weekly give you exercise/health benefits: https://digitalcommons.wku.edu/ijesab/vol2/iss7/44/
> 
> And of course you could use any of those exercising apps to track/compare various activities. I use Endomondo to track (though mostly look at mileage, not the calories, etc.). This blogger used Fitbit. Of course I think they're all probably inaccurate compared to measurement tools in a real study, but at least they should be inaccurate across all activities so if your goal is using it to compare the relative benefit of one activity to any other, the comparisons should be useful enough.
> 
> 
> I love that you got him a lesson and that he was game to do it. I hope it's an eye-opening experience for him, and it will be a great story at school I'm sure!


Thanks for the links! I especially like that one is an article published in an academic journal. I will see if I can download the full-length article through my university's portal and send it to him!!!


----------



## Captain Evil

Acadianartist said:


> So today, my daughter gave him a Christmas card containing a gift certificate for one riding lesson with my daughter's coach at one of her own lessons.


Can I hit the "Love" button? Oh, where is it? That is just so brilliant!!

:loveshower: :loveshower: :loveshower:


----------



## Woodhaven

One time at a show my horse was not at her best and it was a tough ride keeping her focused on the job. When I came out of the ring I said to friends "I'm pooped, that was a tough ride" and one of them said " I don't know why you should be tired, the horse does all the work" I just want to reach out and bop them on top of their head.
I said "if you ask a 1000 lbs to do something and it says No, you will be working very hard'


A couple of things: I read somewhere once that swimming and horseback riding are exercises that you use just about every muscle in your body. And with an uncooperative 1000 lbs I can believe it'
I also read that one time at the Olympics they did some testing to see which sport has the most fit contestants and it was the Event rider who qualified for that.

I don't know if these two facts are true but I believe they could be.


----------



## phantomhorse13

I think your solution is just brilliant - kudos to your creative thinking and to your instructor for agreeing!!

Please ask his permission to video bits of his lesson.. because it would be really fun to have a 30 second clip every 5 minutes to see how things go over the lesson.

@its lbs not miles : your offer is so kind. I wish I could take you up on it myself as I am having massive withdrawl since its rifle season here..


----------



## PoptartShop

I gotta see how this goes. :rofl: That is AWESOME!!! I hope he really goes through with it though & doesn't chicken out. 

One of my biggest pet peeves is when people say it's not a sport/the horse does all the work. Or, you tell people you ride & they say 'I rode a pony once' lol...very very different. I know a lot of people just aren't educated on the sport, but come on, be open-minded. :icon_rolleyes: 

That'll be the last time he says 'it's not a sport' LOL.


----------



## bsms

Acadianartist said:


> ...She chose riding, of course. He told me that it doesn't count because it has to have at least 15 minutes of cardio per session...


He's right about that part. My typical pulse rate jogging is 140-150. Any higher is too exhausting. Lower is too easy. "_In systems that use five heart rate zones, the aerobic zone is zone 3, from 70% to 80% of your maximum heart rate. It is a heart rate where you can sustain exercise effort for a long period of time and get the benefit of improving your cardiovascular endurance._"

https://www.verywellfit.com/what-is-the-aerobic-zone-3436575

That doesn't mean riding horses isn't EXERCISE, but it is NOT generally AEROBIC exercise, pushing the heart and lungs. Not sure what my pulse hit when Mia bolted, but riding doesn't normally hit the aerobic range for me. Don't ride with a heart monitor, but no way it affects my heart like a run does. And if riding (or running, or weight lifting) is one's only form of exercise, your overall fitness will suffer. Cross training is good. Mono-training better than nothing. TV watching is bad.

Honestly, your daughter will benefit if she cross trains.


----------



## carshon

I showed your post to my husband. Who as luck would have it had his riding lesson yesterday. It was a group lesson with 3 other riders. He rides a gaited horse so does not have to post but he has to stand in his stirrups with no hands touching horse or saddle for a few laps - change his speed while standing and change directions. After a couple of laps he is begging to be able to sit down. There were 2 other riders riding western and 1 riding English 2 in their early 20's and 1 my hubbies age and they all agreed that it was hard. And there was many a red face as the lesson progressed and their tasks changed. Hubby says he can't wait to hear how coach does.

I hope he does take that lesson and I hope he is open minded enough to see how hard riding can be.

Keeping my eye out for updates on this post!


----------



## SueC

bsms said:


> He's right about that part. My typical pulse rate jogging is 140-150. Any higher is too exhausting. Lower is too easy. "_In systems that use five heart rate zones, the aerobic zone is zone 3, from 70% to 80% of your maximum heart rate. It is a heart rate where you can sustain exercise effort for a long period of time and get the benefit of improving your cardiovascular endurance._"
> 
> https://www.verywellfit.com/what-is-the-aerobic-zone-3436575
> 
> That doesn't mean riding horses isn't EXERCISE, but it is NOT generally AEROBIC exercise, pushing the heart and lungs. Not sure what my pulse hit when Mia bolted, but riding doesn't normally hit the aerobic range for me. Don't ride with a heart monitor, but no way it affects my heart like a run does. And if riding (or running, or weight lifting) is one's only form of exercise, your overall fitness will suffer. Cross training is good. Mono-training better than nothing. TV watching is bad.
> 
> Honestly, your daughter will benefit if she cross trains.


Here's the thing: To me (and maybe I'm defining it differently?), cardio involves anaerobic exercise, where you're pushing beyond the aerobic metabolism and starting to make lactic acid. This really pushes you to your limits. We used to interval train the trotters to get their cardiovascular systems really fit - and I interval trained on the beach because that training type really works (but I run like a duck so please don't look; still, it was great for my heart, lungs, blood vessels, metabolism...). The other exercises that push me that much are mountain climbing and doing fast bicycle riding (and/or hills on bicycles, and/or interval training).

Horse riding doesn't bring me to that particular level of exercise, just like flat speed walking doesn't - the only times I've worked my heart that hard with a horse is when I ran with it during endurance riding to give it a break from me while still making good time - or when I trained my yearling a long time ago and ran cross-country with her to get her used to trails, long before I could ride her.

I do think horse riding is useful _aerobic_ exercise if you're not plodding. Like power walking, like volleyball, like rollerblading, in intensity level - but combined with general horse care, it also exercises amazing amounts of muscle. But not like interval training, or fast cycling, or scrambling up steep inclines - that gets me breathing much harder.

So I think riders can benefit from cross-training that involves something that makes you breathe yourself ragged - and also, Pilates is great cross-training for horse riders (and anyone really) due to the core strength and flexibility it fosters.

But, anyone who thinks serious horse riding isn't serious exercise needs to get roped into a lesson like @Acadianartist is serving up to that PE teacher!


----------



## its lbs not miles

phantomhorse13 said:


> I think your solution is just brilliant - kudos to your creative thinking and to your instructor for agreeing!!
> 
> Please ask his permission to video bits of his lesson.. because it would be really fun to have a 30 second clip every 5 minutes to see how things go over the lesson.
> 
> @its lbs not miles : your offer is so kind. I wish I could take you up on it myself as I am having massive withdrawl since its rifle season here..


They don't separate our seasons here. Aug - New Years you can hunt with anything that's legal (bow, crossbow, black powder, rifle, shotgun all have the same start and end dates). Only difference it makes for me is that I don't bushwhack before New Years except on my or my families land where I know I can't be in line of someone shooting, but I seldom do any bushwhacking. I ride the roads/highways (ready made trails that can take me almost anywhere LOL). Roads, etc.. are safe since that's were you see a lot of the shotgun hunters set up so no one shoots in the direction of any roads (unless they want to get return fire LOL). Also, due to terrain all rifles are used in stands (also bows), because hunting deer with a rifle from ground level out here leaves your odds of getting a shot (let alone a kill) at somewhere between slim to none (and slim moved away years ago). At ground level everyone here uses a shotgun, because if you see a deer at ground level it's going to be real close and not standing there watching you (so range and time is limited). Everyone with a rifle or bow wants to get up higher or they won't see a target being still long enough to get a shot. Even some people with shotguns use tree stands just for the better visibility and less detectability.
Now there are a few people who do hunt from horseback (I use to when I was in my teens and 20's) and that does give you a small edge since deer will often not just run into heavy brush, but might stop to look back at the horse for a second or two (sometimes more than once) which can give a mounted hunter a better chance at getting a good shot with a shotgun (although there are people who have used bows for that too...I just never mastered the bow).
For me I've just gotten bored with hunting over the years. If I break down the time spent waiting and coming back with nothing against the amount of meat I got it just wasn't worth my time. Use to be better, but it hasn't been worth it for years. Today I just allow certain people to hunt set parts of my land and I get some meat from them in payment (if they have any luck).


----------



## Acadianartist

Yes, we would like to take video, however, it will have to be with his permission. My daughter was excited about it and said she couldn't wait to share it on social media. I told her she is not allowed to do anything of the sort without his explicit permission. We'll be sure to ask BEFORE the ride though, when he still thinks he is going to rock it. Because afterwards, he might feel a little differently!!!:rofl::rofl::rofl: 

While embarrassing him would certainly be tempting, what I really want to achieve is to educate him so that the next time he has a young equestrian in his class, he doesn't belittle her without knowing the first thing about what she does. This is the best way to have an impact, I think. It's not right to destroy young girls' self-confidence over and over again in these types of classes. I won't tolerate it for my daughter. 

That said, if he's a little embarrassed, I might find that just a little bit vindicating.

On a different note, the school must be really looking forward to my kids graduating so they don't have to deal with me anymore!


----------



## Acadianartist

bsms said:


> He's right about that part. My typical pulse rate jogging is 140-150. Any higher is too exhausting. Lower is too easy. "_In systems that use five heart rate zones, the aerobic zone is zone 3, from 70% to 80% of your maximum heart rate. It is a heart rate where you can sustain exercise effort for a long period of time and get the benefit of improving your cardiovascular endurance._"
> 
> https://www.verywellfit.com/what-is-the-aerobic-zone-3436575
> 
> That doesn't mean riding horses isn't EXERCISE, but it is NOT generally AEROBIC exercise, pushing the heart and lungs. Not sure what my pulse hit when Mia bolted, but riding doesn't normally hit the aerobic range for me. Don't ride with a heart monitor, but no way it affects my heart like a run does. And if riding (or running, or weight lifting) is one's only form of exercise, your overall fitness will suffer. Cross training is good. Mono-training better than nothing. TV watching is bad.
> 
> Honestly, your daughter will benefit if she cross trains.


I disagree. You may not get that level of cardio on pleasure rides, but I assure you that my daughter's lessons absolutely DO provide it. This is much like the difference between taking a walk, and speed walking. What my daughter does (I know, because I sometimes take lessons in the group before hers - I physically CAN'T keep up with her group) is competition training for show jumping. This means 30-40 minutes of posting trot at a good pace (not a Western jog) along with canter and jump work. I absolutely do feel my heart beating faster, and I have to breathe much faster after 10 minutes or so of posting trot (actually, I am huffing and puffing, and peeling off layers in the middle of winter because I am working HARD!)

If you check out some of the research posted above, you will see that competitive riders do get in that aerobic range. But not pleasure riders. That's why the teacher needs to try to keep up with my daughter in a regular lesson to understand what I'm talking about.


----------



## lostastirrup

I read an article put together by a girl in a similar situation and she wore a heart rate monitor. Ended up indicating that it was aerobic and was good to go. In HS I wrote off PE credits in my riding and manual labor at the barn. My advisor was a rider and the PE teacher was pretty clear thinking when I explained what I did every day. 

I hope your PE teacher loves his lesson and then gets excited about helping your daughter do some cross training to improve her riding. I'm told it helps, but no matter how many books I've read I've never been able to stick to it for more than a week.


----------



## Jaybirdeclipse

If golf is a sport, I don`t see why riding isn`t!
looking forward to seeing how the teacher`s lesson goes lol


----------



## its lbs not miles

Acadianartist said:


> Yes, we would like to take video, however, it will have to be with his permission. My daughter was excited about it and said she couldn't wait to share it on social media. I told her she is not allowed to do anything of the sort without his explicit permission. We'll be sure to ask BEFORE the ride though, when he still thinks he is going to rock it. Because afterwards, he might feel a little differently!!!:rofl::rofl::rofl:
> 
> While embarrassing him would certainly be tempting, what I really want to achieve is to educate him so that the next time he has a young equestrian in his class, he doesn't belittle her without knowing the first thing about what she does. This is the best way to have an impact, I think. It's not right to destroy young girls' self-confidence over and over again in these types of classes. I won't tolerate it for my daughter.
> 
> That said, if he's a little embarrassed, I might find that just a little bit vindicating.
> 
> On a different note, the school must be really looking forward to my kids graduating so they don't have to deal with me anymore!


That's the thing I like about my system. Much like what I used on my children when they were little and thought there was nothing but fun to camping (they had to learn about hiking in, setting up camp, digging fire pit, breaking camp...and you can't just go home if you get scared...and I always make the first one scary ****).

He rides the 22 miles to a place I can camp with water 50 yards away (a friend owns the land). When he gets there and is dealing with sore muscles he can't just say "ok, had enough, let's go home". Doesn't work that way. You're 22 miles from home. No time to ride back that day. Have to sleep overnight and then ride back the next day (sore muscles and all) since you can't just leave the horse (he can lead it back while he walks if he wants....the horse won't mind and it might help him work out the stiff muscles LOL). If he's too tough to throw in the towel and head home (and wants to prove riding is not work) then my next spot is sort of in the direction of home, but about a 30 mile ride to another field with a water pump about 200 yards from where we'll stay the night (he gets the joy of hauling water for his horse in both places and horses drink a lot LOL). The horses are very familiar with these places and the routine since it's where I did their final training for camping. Now day three is an easy day. We're just over 11 miles from home so it's a nice 8 mile trot so we can get home sooner (we'll walk the last 3 miles....I always walk the last 3 miles no matter what). After those 3 days, if he can walk normal for 200 yards and tell me that riding is not work, then I'll conceded. ****.


----------



## its lbs not miles

Jaybirdeclipse said:


> If golf is a sport, I don`t see why riding isn`t!
> looking forward to seeing how the teacher`s lesson goes lol


By a strict definition a great many things might qualify as sports since to be a sport it only required physical exertion and skill (by definition). Then we have to decide what defines "exertion". If hitting a golf ball qualifies as "exertion" then I suppose someone could argue that some video games meet the requirement of being a "sport" since there can be a lot of physical action with a mouse, control pad, joy stick, even keyboard typing LOL. Baling hay is absolutely a sport. For that matter so is tying your shoe ****. Just have to make a competition out of it.


----------



## Aprilswissmiss

phantomhorse13 said:


> @its lbs not miles : your offer is so kind. I wish I could take you up on it myself as I am having massive withdrawl since its rifle season here..


Just head over to Southeast PA and you can borrow my mare! It's too suburban for hunting, and I'm sure you'll get along with her being 1/2 Arabian. :biggrin:


----------



## bsms

Acadianartist said:


> I disagree. You may not get that level of cardio on pleasure rides, but I assure you that my daughter's lessons absolutely DO provide it. This is much like the difference between taking a walk, and speed walking....


Does you daughter ever need to stop riding and catch her breath? Can she answers questions audibly while riding? I understand jumping and long races will stress the rider in ways I don't encounter. But what the instructor is looking for is a sustained time of stress on the heart and lungs.

I understand riding is work. Hard work if you are going to get out of the saddle and balance on a fast moving horse. But I don't think it challenges the heart and lungs the way running does. It is exercise. It works the core and works balance and stresses the legs (although different muscles in the leg than running).

But it doesn't challenge the heart the way running does, or the shoulder and arm muscles the way weight-lifting does. Your daughter is going to ride anyways. The instructor is wrong when he says riding isn't work. But if he is trying to get her to cross-train for better overall fitness, he's right!

Suppose a student loves distance running. I'd encourage that runner to also do some weight lifting, or play some stop and go sports (basketball?), or ride horses, or even just do push-ups. One sport training is not good for all-around fitness. 

BTW, @SueC made a good point about aerobic transitioning to anearobic fitness.



> "These early results are summarized in Figure 1, which shows that below the ventilatory threshold, comfortable speech is usually possible (green zone); that right at the intensity of the ventilatory threshold comfortable speech becomes equivocal (yellow zone); and right at the respiratory compensation threshold, comfortable speech becomes impossible (red zone)....The yellow zone corresponds to the point where speaking begins to become difficult—the “equivocal” stage of the talk test. Exercising at this intensity is difficult and cannot continue indefinitely. The red zone, which corresponds to the point where smooth conversation becomes impossible, is the “negative” stage of the Talk Test and exercising at this level rapidly results in fatigue."
> 
> https://www.acefitness.org/certifie...ponsored-research-validating-the-talk-test-as


When I'm jogging, I usually try to stay in the upper part of the yellow zone. But on some days, I go for longer distances at a slower pace, or push into the red zone (sprints) and then slowly jog between for recovery.



> Cardio can be defined as exercise that keeps us around or under the 70% HR of our full capacity. Meaning it’s not high-intensity sprints and it’s also not sitting doing nothing. So movement like walking, light jogging, dancing, swimming and bike riding can all be classified as cardio because of the intensity in which you do it. However, each of these exercises can be moved from “cardio work” into high-intensity work if you were to add in hills, interval sprints or more resistance.
> 
> The way I explain light cardio is where it is movement in which you can hold a conversation at, so going for a walk with a friend and being able to chat and catch up.
> 
> More intense cardio is where you can say a few words but you also need to catch your breath.
> 
> Then high-intensity work is where you can’t talk, you need to get oxygen first and catch your breath.
> 
> Everyone’s fitness is different and how you respond to a workout may be different to someone else. So what makes you breathless can be different from the next person. That being said there are lots of different styles of riding. Some riding whereby you are able to chat with a friend while going on a hack, or the more intense like doing a competition dressage test, show jumping or a cross country course.
> 
> So to answer the question, yes horse riding is a cardio workout, but at what intensity it fully depends on the level and type of riding you are doing and the fitness of the rider.
> 
> https://dressageridertraining.com/blog/much-exercise-around-riding/


Riders get tired of hearing how the horse does all the work. But the instructor is not wrong to expect a student to do more than just riding. And he'd be right to expect someone to do more than just running. And more than just weight lifting. And more than just playing basketball. It sounds like his goal in a fitness plan is all around fitness. That is good!


----------



## txgirl

Interesting to see how this pans out!


----------



## Acadianartist

bsms said:


> Does you daughter ever need to stop riding and catch her breath? Can she answers questions audibly while riding? I understand jumping and long races will stress the rider in ways I don't encounter. But what the instructor is looking for is a sustained time of stress on the heart and lungs.
> 
> I understand riding is work. Hard work if you are going to get out of the saddle and balance on a fast moving horse. But I don't think it challenges the heart and lungs the way running does. It is exercise. It works the core and works balance and stresses the legs (although different muscles in the leg than running).
> 
> But it doesn't challenge the heart the way running does, or the shoulder and arm muscles the way weight-lifting does. Your daughter is going to ride anyways. The instructor is wrong when he says riding isn't work. But if he is trying to get her to cross-train for better overall fitness, he's right!
> 
> Suppose a student loves distance running. I'd encourage that runner to also do some weight lifting, or play some stop and go sports (basketball?), or ride horses, or even just do push-ups. One sport training is not good for all-around fitness.
> 
> BTW, @SueC made a good point about aerobic transitioning to anearobic fitness.
> 
> 
> 
> When I'm jogging, I usually try to stay in the upper part of the yellow zone. But on some days, I go for longer distances at a slower pace, or push into the red zone (sprints) and then slowly jog between for recovery.
> 
> 
> 
> Riders get tired of hearing how the horse does all the work. But the instructor is not wrong to expect a student to do more than just riding. And he'd be right to expect someone to do more than just running. And more than just weight lifting. And more than just playing basketball. It sounds like his goal in a fitness plan is all around fitness. That is good!


I can't believe I have to argue this on this forum. Yes, we get winded when we ride, and YES we take breaks from working hard because we're out of breath, and NO, I cannot speak normally when I'm posting for any duration. All I can do is yell "YEP" to the coach. In the red? No. As out of breath as if I were joggging? Maybe... close, for sure. But he never said it has to be comparable to jogging, just that it has to be 15 minutes of sustained aerobic exercise. I think posting a fast trot for a competitive rider meets that criteria, and that's what the studies have also shown. 

Of course she does other forms of exercise. That's not the point.


----------



## Acadianartist

I think this is a good, balanced response in addition to the article posted above: 

"So getting back to the original question, is dressage riding, or any riding, considered cardio or aerobic? As you can guess, it depends. Walking is considered an aerobic activity. However, you can amble down the street or you can walk vigorously uphill—the first is unlikely to be aerobic; the second is very likely to be aerobic. Similarly, the exercise you get while riding depends upon what you are doing. Hacking out on trails at a walk is unlikely to be aerobic. Focused training at trot and canter is likely to be aerobic."

https://dressagetoday.com/rider-wellness/experts-27291


----------



## PoptartShop

Let me just add that riding isn't the only thing us equestrians do for exercise, & she should also tell her instructor this. 
Lifting bags of feed, bales of hay, heck, even scooping manure...those things can be a workout in themselves! :lol: Even grooming.  So it's not just in the saddle. Also I'm pretty sure posting at the trot is plenty.


----------



## Dustbunny

LOL You are a Genie-us!!!!!!!!


----------



## beau159

Acadianartist said:


> He told me that it doesn't count because it has to have at least 15 minutes of cardio per session, and that in riding, the horse does all the work. Yep, he said that. TO. MY. FACE.
> 
> He did not appear to believe me and insisted that it was all in the leg, and that it was muscular, not aerobic, since all you have to do is follow the motion of the horse.


Of course, this is not jumping like what your daughter does, but feel free to share this picture with him if it helps explain your cause. Because clearly .... I'm just sitting there following the motion of the horse using legs only...... (I would have been out the back door had I not been using my WHOLE BODY to balance on my horse and cue him.... and why I'm sometimes out of breath after a run! HAHA I mean, you can easily see the tensed muscles in both my arms and my neck! )

People just don't know what they don't know..... I'm very much looking forward to hearing how his ride went!













its lbs not miles said:


> By a strict definition a great many things might qualify as sports since to be a sport it only required physical exertion and skill (by definition). Then we have to decide what defines "exertion". If hitting a golf ball qualifies as "exertion" then I suppose someone could argue that some video games meet the requirement of being a "sport" since there can be a lot of physical action with a mouse, control pad, joy stick, even keyboard typing LOL. Baling hay is absolutely a sport. For that matter so is tying your shoe ****. Just have to make a competition out of it.


To confuse things further, now schools are having E-sports where students are on the "sports" team for gaming...... food for thought anyway!




bsms said:


> He's right about that part. My typical pulse rate jogging is 140-150. Any higher is too exhausting. Lower is too easy. "_In systems that use five heart rate zones, the aerobic zone is zone 3, from 70% to 80% of your maximum heart rate. It is a heart rate where you can sustain exercise effort for a long period of time and get the benefit of improving your cardiovascular endurance._"
> 
> That doesn't mean riding horses isn't EXERCISE, but it is NOT generally AEROBIC exercise, pushing the heart and lungs.


 That might be YOUR definition of aerobic exercise but it is not THE definition of aerobic exercise. 



Taking about the "aerobic zone" is the not the same thing as talking about aerobic exercise. 


You also do not do the same type of riding as OP's daughter does.



bsms said:


> But what the instructor is looking for is a sustained time of stress on the heart and lungs.


And you know that how?



bsms said:


> But if he is trying to get her to cross-train for better overall fitness, he's right!


 Possibly. Of course, varied physical exercise is always good for your body; no doubt about that. However, what I am gathering from the original post from the OP is that the instructor simply does not think that riding requires any effort whatsoever and therefore OP's daughter cannot use riding for her training plan. Riding is indeed physical exercise and IMO should qualify as a valid training plan for her class homework requirement. That's what this whole discussion boils down to -- that the teacher is not allowing OP's daughter to use riding for her school project.


----------



## boots

I got excused from PE altogether in junior high and high school because I was galloping TBs before coming to school.

That was in the early 70s.


----------



## SueC

Acadianartist said:


> I can't believe I have to argue this on this forum. Yes, we get winded when we ride, and YES we take breaks from working hard because we're out of breath, and NO, I cannot speak normally when I'm posting for any duration. All I can do is yell "YEP" to the coach. In the red? No. As out of breath as if I were joggging? Maybe... close, for sure. But he never said it has to be comparable to jogging, just that it has to be 15 minutes of sustained aerobic exercise. I think posting a fast trot for a competitive rider meets that criteria, and that's what the studies have also shown.


This might be an individual thing, depending on general fitness levels, and perhaps on how smooth one's horse is? I'm pretty fit from the mountain climbing, my horses are smooth, and I've just never been so out of breath on a horse from horse riding that I couldn't speak - other than when I was a beginner and struggling to adjust to the horse, and riding rattletrap horses that jar you when trotting (and then part of the hyperventilation is discomfort). And this is doing endurance, gymkhanas, dressage training, plus jumping practice as a kid (my legs got too long :rofl, and I can assure you I ride fast on trails compared to standard recreational riders. Also, I've never understood why people complain about how much effort it is to post, because I've just not experienced that, once I was out of the beginner stage. My legs don't get tired posting; I rise minimally and most of the rise is from not absorbing the shock to the same extent as when I'm doing a sitting trot - it just seems to be mostly about elasticity whichever way I ride a trot. I can post for hours, and I just don't get tired or out of breath, not at a racing-speed trot either (I ride ex-harness racers).

But, as I said, I'm fitter than average, including from cardio, and the horses I've ridden for the past 35 years have all been incredibly smooth, long-striding horses with wonderful trots - I mostly ride actual trotters these days, but the same was true for my Crabbet/Polish Arabian mare, who won every saddle trotting race she ever entered at gymkhanas by long margins. I think having a smooth horse makes a big difference, and I don't find most riding horse breeds as smooth at the trot as a good Arabian or the specific trotting / gaited breeds.

Because the large muscle groups can be worked far harder when we're not on a horse than when we are, if you're after _cardiovascular_ fitness, then there's more intense workouts to be had than even serious riding. Yes, riding is serious exercise, and it can get people out of breath - but not nearly as out of breath as doing interval training, or sprint training, or clambering up steep inclines, where you breathe yourself inside out and get to the point of nearly throwing up if you don't moderate yourself.


----------



## Acadianartist

I'm impressed @SueC! Because I'm reasonably fit, but I can't post all day long. I have jogged, can throw hay all day long, shovel out stalls every day, do yoga and pilates, but yes, I get a workout at a lesson with my daughter's coach. Not at home, heck no. Not even when I did the 7 hour ride in Italy (and we trotted, cantered and even galloped some). However, an hour with my daughter's coach is most definitely a workout for me right alongside doing pilates. I do find posting on lesson horses tiring even though like you, I try to only rise minimally. It's easier on some horses than others. The slow ones are the worst because the coach doesn't tolerate slow so you have to get that horse moving faster and that means using seat, legs, and core at the very least. Even on Rusty, if I'm just doing ring work, I have to press with my legs at every down part of the posting trot to keep him going with good momentum (sometimes the coach comes to us and we do lessons at home). So yeah, I'm out of breath. 

Are there more intense cardiovascular exercises out there? Of course. That doesn't mean an intense training lesson at trot/canter isn't cardiovascular though. And yeah, those eventing people are nuts. I think that the problem is that riding can go from leisurely to very intense so unless the teacher can see for himself exactly what my daughter is doing, then he won't get it.


----------



## Acadianartist

According to this chart, jumping (9) has a higher MET (metabolic equivalent of task) value than football (8), cantering/galloping (7.3) is somewhere between field hockey (7.8) and basketball (6.5), and trotting (5.8) is on par with rock climbing (low to moderate difficulty) and close to track and field (6). 

https://sites.google.com/site/compendiumofphysicalactivities/Activity-Categories/sports


----------



## SueC

Man, @Acadianartist, I can't jog, I just don't have the technique - I get stitches, and feel miserable, and part of it might be my build - extremely long femurs, and slightly inward-facing kneecaps, and slightly clicky hips. Nothing kills me more than trying to jog. I do better trying to run (like a duck) on a soft surface, like sand, and do it as fast as I can for as long as I can, and then back to a walk until the oxygen debt has been paid off and I'm not snorting and wheezing like a warthog with emphysema.

One thing I'm very good at is fast walking, but because that's not enough to get where I want to with fitness, I look for gradients, and we do mountains regularly (please note: Australian mountains are not tall by world standards), and this helps the general fitness. Also we did a lot of cycling when we lived in town, and we're trying to get back into that now we've settled into a routine on our farm.

I was the kid who barely passed PE. I was all skeleton and no muscles to control it until I was 14, and I have terrible hand-eye coordination, and I don't like running after balls. But horse-riding just gelled with me, and was one activity I was actually good at compared to other people - unlike school sports.

The posting thing, yeah, I would say the horses I ride have much to do with how easy I find it. Not only are they smooth, I never have to encourage them to go faster - I suggest it, and they're like, "Oh goody!!!" 

And yes, in case that wasn't clear, it was never the intention to suggest anyone was claiming there weren't more intense workouts than serious horse-riding / horse-care. :racing: But I do think the PE teacher is way off the mark to suggest serious riding isn't serious exercise, because it's a lot more demanding physically than a lot of official "sports" on the curriculum.

By the way, I think jumping is a bigger workout than flat riding, because more adjustments need to be made to go with the horse over obstacles and through tight turns!


----------



## SueC

Acadianartist said:


> According to this chart, jumping (9) has a higher MET (metabolic equivalent of task) value than football (8), cantering/galloping (7.3) is somewhere between field hockey (7.8) and basketball (6.5), and trotting (5.8) is on par with rock climbing (low to moderate difficulty) and close to track and field (6).
> 
> https://sites.google.com/site/compendiumofphysicalactivities/Activity-Categories/sports


Yep, that seems about right, from having done / been forced to do these, and comparing!


----------



## Woodhaven

I do think taking a lesson is much more strenuous than trail riding.
With my mare I could go out and trot often close to an extended trot and keep it up for long distances and maybe some cantering (when I was younger would trot for miles) and not be short of breath. But taking a lesson on a 17H+ part draft horse could have me winded and begging for a rest (Teacher we have to stop for a bit as horsey needs a break).
It was hard work and I would have to take a break at least twice in an hour lesson whereas I could ride for more than a hour travelling fairly fast out on the trails.

I hope he takes the lesson and you keep us informed.


----------



## SteadyOn

Acadianartist said:


> So today, my daughter gave him a Christmas card containing a gift certificate for one riding lesson with my daughter's coach at one of her own lessons. I chatted with the coach before arranging it and explained to her why I wanted a beginner to do a lesson in an advanced group (we do not expect him to be able to keep up, but he needs to know how it feels). She agreed (with a big smile on her face) and said worse comes to worse, she'll put him on a lunge line at a trot for 15 minutes on each side. Obviously we don't want anyone to get hurt, but I felt that this is the only way I will convince him. I'm not even doing it just for my daughter, but for every girl who was ever told her sport is not a real sport because "the horse does all the work".
> 
> I can't wait to see it!


I am laughing out loud here. This is AMAZING! What a perfect "gift" -- for your daughter!!!


----------



## bsms

Since I believe in honesty over ego, I'll post this:



> Abstract
> 
> Oxygen consumption (VO2), ventilation (V E) and heart rate (HR) were studied in five recreational riders with a portable oxygen analyser (K2 Cosmed, Rome) telemetric system, during two different experimental riding sessions. The first one was a dressage session in which the rider successively rode four different horses at a walk, trot and canter. The second one was a jumping training session. Each rider rode two horses, one known and one unknown.
> 
> The physiological parameters were measured during warm up at a canter in suspension and when jumping an isolated obstacle at a trot and canter. This session was concluded by a jumping course with 12 obstacles.
> 
> The data show a progressive increase in VO2 during the dressage session from a mean value of 0.70min [mean (SD)] at a walk, to 1.47min at a trot, and 1.9 (0.3)min at a canter. During the jumping session, rider VO2 was 2(0.33)min with a mean HR of 155 beats· min during canter in suspension, obstacle trot and obstacle canter. The jumping course significantly enhanced VO2 and HR up to mean values of 2.40 (0.35)min and 176beats/min, respectively.
> 
> The comparison among horses and riders during the dressage session shows differences in energy expenditure according to the horse for the same rider and between riders. During the jumping session, there was no statistical difference between riders riding known and unknown horses. In conclusion these data confirm that riding induces a significant increase in energy expenditure. During jumping, a mean value of 75% VO2max was reached. Therefore, a good aerobic capacity seems to be a factor determining riding performance in competitions. Regular riding practice and additional physical training are recommended to enhance the physical fitness of competitive riders.
> 
> https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s004210000207


That said, if the instructor wanted 15 minutes non-stop, do jumpers keep repeating a 12 obstacle course for 15 minutes without a break?

I took my pulse at intervals jogging today. 130-140 was typical. When it hit 150, I needed to pause. When it was back to 130, I was ready to run again. To the extent aerobic fitness helps a rider jumping, then perhaps your daughter would do BETTER if she did some running as well.


----------



## Acadianartist

bsms said:


> Since I believe in honesty over ego, I'll post this:
> 
> 
> 
> That said, if the instructor wanted 15 minutes non-stop, do jumpers keep repeating a 12 obstacle course for 15 minutes without a break?
> 
> I took my pulse at intervals jogging today. 130-140 was typical. When it hit 150, I needed to pause. When it was back to 130, I was ready to run again. To the extent aerobic fitness helps a rider jumping, then perhaps your daughter would do BETTER if she did some running as well.


I notice it says right at the outset that these are recreational riders. I don't think it's the same for a competitive rider. I consider myself a recreational rider, but my daughter is definitely in the competitive range. 

And as for jumping for 15 minutes straight, I think you're thinking of jumping at shows. They're a piece of cake compared to the prep work that goes into it - like most other sports. She might only do 12 obstacles at a show (although to be fair, she enters about 6 classes at each show), but a lesson is entirely different. This is something you'd know if you had ridden at this level, which is exactly why I purchased a lesson for her PE teacher. Preparing for shows requires much more energy expenditure and they do ride over jumps for much longer than they would at a show. For example, they would do gymnastics - 6 jumps in a row getting progressively higher, with only one stride between jumps, then canter around and do it again. And again. And again. For the better part of 30-40 minutes. 

But I would reiterate that you don't need to jump for 15 minutes straight, only keep your cardio high enough to be getting a good workout. I would suggest that is doable at a strong trot on a lesson horse who requires you to work hard just to keep him going. 

Incidentally, my daughter is currently riding her coach's large show jumper (her personal show horse) at lessons. We don't like to trailer Harley in the winter, and my daughter needs to jump higher than Harley can go for her rider levels. This horse is a lot bigger (16h and massive build) and while he has a lot of momentum, he requires a very active rider to keep him focused and collected so he can jump efficiently. 

Of course the PE teacher will likely end up on one of the quieter lesson horses, but that also means he'll have to work really hard to keep the horse going.


----------



## whisperbaby22

Yea, what a neat idea to give a lesson as a gift. Good for you.


----------



## bsms

Acadianartist said:


> ...And as for jumping for 15 minutes straight, I think you're thinking of jumping at shows. They're a piece of cake compared to the prep work that goes into it - like most other sports. She might only do 12 obstacles at a show (although to be fair, she enters about 6 classes at each show), but a lesson is entirely different. This is something you'd know if you had ridden at this level, which is exactly why I purchased a lesson for her PE teacher...For example, they would do gymnastics - 6 jumps in a row getting progressively higher, with only one stride between jumps, then canter around and do it again. And again. And again. For the better part of 30-40 minutes.
> 
> But I would reiterate that you don't need to jump for 15 minutes straight, only keep your cardio high enough to be getting a good workout. I would suggest that is doable at a strong trot on a lesson horse who requires you to work hard just to keep him going...


I think you missed my point. For example, watching a show jumping competition, they jumped 16 times in about 85 seconds. They averaged a jump every 5 seconds. That was about average in several show jumping competitions.

So 6 jumps in a row, even with 10" between, would be 60" of effort. If there is a cool down period before starting the next run, then you have a minute of effort followed by some time of recovery. 

Not sure trotting or cantering on the flat is going to cut it for aerobic conditioning. After all, walking is an aerobic activity, but by itself it won't push your aerobic condition very high. Can't speak to what it means to "work hard just to keep him going", apart from making it sound just like what the PE teacher said - the horse is working harder than the rider!

I'm also a bit bewildered at the resistance to the idea of serious aerobic conditioning for ANY athlete! Or the idea that participating in ANY one sport is, by itself, all one needs to do for good general fitness. I'd have no respect for a PE teacher who said playing basketball was all anyone needed. Or playing soccer. Or cross-country running. I understand it is offensive when someone says, "The horse does all the work". If so, how come I can get so tired? Riding works the legs, the core, balance, the core, the back, the core...it is a good workout. But not a particularly aerobic one.

What would it hurt to add 15 minutes of running 2-3 times a week to a fitness program? If nothing else, running works muscles riding does not, and vice-versa. Any good fitness program ought to include cross training.


----------



## Acadianartist

bsms said:


> I think you missed my point. For example, watching a show jumping competition, they jumped 16 times in about 85 seconds. They averaged a jump every 5 seconds. That was about average in several show jumping competitions.
> 
> So 6 jumps in a row, even with 10" between, would be 60" of effort. If there is a cool down period before starting the next run, then you have a minute of effort followed by some time of recovery.
> 
> Not sure trotting or cantering on the flat is going to cut it for aerobic conditioning. After all, walking is an aerobic activity, but by itself it won't push your aerobic condition very high. Can't speak to what it means to "work hard just to keep him going", apart from making it sound just like what the PE teacher said - the horse is working harder than the rider!
> 
> I'm also a bit bewildered at the resistance to the idea of serious aerobic conditioning for ANY athlete! Or the idea that participating in ANY one sport is, by itself, all one needs to do for good general fitness. I'd have no respect for a PE teacher who said playing basketball was all anyone needed. Or playing soccer. Or cross-country running. I understand it is offensive when someone says, "The horse does all the work". If so, how come I can get so tired? Riding works the legs, the core, balance, the core, the back, the core...it is a good workout. But not a particularly aerobic one.
> 
> What would it hurt to add 15 minutes of running 2-3 times a week to a fitness program? If nothing else, running works muscles riding does not, and vice-versa. Any good fitness program ought to include cross training.


No, I understood your point, but you are missing mine. The riders cool down between rounds at shows, not during training for shows. It's jump, jump, jump x whatever, canter around, then jump again. Do that for at least 20 minutes (and that's after 10 minutes of trot work). It's quite an intense workout. The idea is to condition the horse and rider beyond what would be required at a show. They jump higher in lessons than they do at shows. That way, when they get to a show, it's physically easy and they can focus on the finer points or the speed if it's jumpers. 

And according to the chart posted above, cantering is a workout more intense than basketball. 

What I mean by working to keep the horse going is that not all horses naturally want to trot with impulsion, so you have to continue to urge them to trot faster using seat, legs (squeezing everytime you post) and upper body. You don't take lessons, so you may never have had to do this. When I trot around with Rusty on a trail, I don't care if he doesn't trot with impulsion, but when you are training to jump, you need impulsion or else you won't have good form getting over the jump (some hunter rounds allow trotting in to the first jump). Even if you are doing dressage, you have to be able to do an extended trot and a collected trot. You need impulsion for the extended trot, and you need to be able to rock the horse back on his hind end for collected trot. This requires your hands, legs and core to work together at a good clip, requiring energy. Lesson horses are sometimes HARD to keep trotting with the appropriate impulsion. Then add to that all the exercises the coach throws in, so while you are trying to get this slow poke lesson horse to maintain good impulsion, you have to start alternating with an extended trot on the long side, a collected trot on the short side, suppling in the corners with your leg and hands, or doing serpentines where you change the diagonal on every S. I mean, there's no way the teacher will be able to do these things because he just doesn't have the skills, but it will be fun to watch him try. 

Running is a terrible idea for my daughter since she is already having knee problems. I stopped because of my knees (believe me, I tried to push through, but it only got worse) and my mother just got a knee replaced so it appears we all have her knees. So instead, we are using an exercise bike and a series of other exercises to strengthen our knees (as per my mother's physio who said that if she'd been doing these exercises, she would not have needed a new knee). Though honestly, I don't find I get winded at all from 15 minutes on the exercise bike and I've set it at quite high resistance. But I do get out of breath during riding lessons trying to do all the above work.


----------



## Avna

I am moderately fit for a sixty-plus woman and I can tell you that there are few lessons during which I don't have to call a halt at least once while I catch my breath (not to mention letting my core relax for a minute or two).


----------



## AnitaAnne

I can't wait to hear all about the PE teacher's lesson!!! 

My first lesson with an FEI instructor, at a time when I was young and very fit (as was my horse) After 45 minutes of intense riding, I literally dismounted and slumped to the ground! What a workout...and she gave my horse a couple of walk breaks...but had to be a real marching walk too :rofl: 

We were so fit, I could ride canter for an hour at home...20 meter circles, counter canter, extended and collected...no problem.

An intense lesson is a whole different experience! To anyone who has never had one...well just trust us; it is a tough workout and yes makes the competition feel almost easy. If it wasn't for the intense stress


----------



## Acadianartist

AnitaAnne said:


> An intense lesson is a whole different experience! To anyone who has never had one...well just trust us; it is a tough workout and yes makes the competition feel almost easy. If it wasn't for the intense stress


THIS!!! You can't possibly understand if you haven't experienced it. That's why it was the only way for the Phys Ed teacher to understand. Clearly, no amount of explaining is the same.


----------



## AnitaAnne

Acadianartist said:


> THIS!!! You can't possibly understand if you haven't experienced it. That's why it was the only way for the Phys Ed teacher to understand. Clearly, no amount of explaining is the same.


True, it must be experienced. I so remember laying flat on the ground for 15 minutes as one friend laughed hysterically (she had been taking lessons for 2 months with the same instructor) and the other walked my horse over to the wash rack to take care of the poor horse. I was near comatose on the 2 hour ride back home...

I was accepted as a student after riding with this instructor in a clinic. The clinic went really well, and was tough but nothing like that first lesson. It took me a month of weekly lessons to get in shape enough to be able to function afterwards. 

I think one must be a little masochistic to keep going back :smile:


----------



## Acadianartist

AnitaAnne said:


> I think one must be a little masochistic to keep going back :smile:


Right?! I just can't follow my daughter's group - they are all teenaged girls who compete in show jumping and ride daily. One girl has two horses, one experienced jumper and a 4 year old OTTB she is training (she's 16!). She rides both horses every day for an hour so they are fit enough to compete. Everyone is in awe of her. My daughter rides about 5-6 times a week during show season and I can't keep up 

I usually try to get lessons from the coach's most advanced student who is also a certified coach, but is a little less demanding My daughter's coach is a little terrifying, to be honest, but boy, does she get results. However, you don't want to take lessons with her if your plan is to only ride once a week. It's just painful to do. But she's a competition coach, which is a special certification in Canada. 

We also have a program here called LTED - Long Term Equestrian Development. It's available for jumpers, eventers and dressage riders, and it includes rider fitness evaluations (beep tests, planks, the whole gammet of fitness requirements you would find in any sport really). My daughter hasn't done it yet because Harley can't jump high enough for this program, but it shows how structured competitive riding is in Canada if you do it through sanctioned Equestrian Canada programs (which is what my daughter does through her rider levels).


----------



## Animalia

Acadianartist said:


> Also, he will get to fetch his horse from the pasture, groom it and tack it up before his lesson. Everyone is required to do this. We do not have our horses all ready and tacked up for us! As for picking manure, well, everyone knows that you're responsible for any messes your horse makes in the cross-ties!
> 
> But I would sure like to invite him to the daily muck-out or perhaps for hay season!



Good! That's what I was thinking too! That turd of a man needs to understand that REALLY working with a horse is very physical--overall. You spend a lot of time walking or jogging around on the ground. Grooming and lunging work the arms. Tacking up works all the muscles. Cleaning stalls and paddocks work all the muscles. If he still balks about the "cardio" or lack of it after the lesson (*maybe they can make sure his horse is WAY out so it takes him 10 minutes of walking to fetch it!) then have your daughter add 15 minutes of walking and jogging--with her horse in hand-- to her "plan". She probably already does that anyway throughout the whole process. What a fun thread--can't wait to see the outcome!


----------



## Aprilswissmiss

I just remembered something relevant to this thread. One year when I was in high school, I was in the best shape I'd ever been because I was working my butt off at two different stables and riding different horses at least a few times every day. When PE started at school, which was a mandatory crossfit class, during the first week we were doing some sort of exercise rotation and the PE teacher suddenly got HEATED. He was yelling at the school's top football players because I, the "little quiet 5'2" girl," was doing burpees faster than them. :rofl:


----------



## Woodhaven

In my younger days I was a very fit rider, I could and did ride 50m in one day and other times a lot of distance riding of 15 to 30m in a day. I wore the shoes right off my horse, he had to have new ones every trimming.

I took a lesson and in it we had to do a posting trot, no stirrups, I thought "this will be easy for me". I felt no effects but when we dismounted I landed on my feet and just kept going into a puddle on the ground, my legs could not support me. That was a real surprise for me.

In my 70's now and I will not even attempt this, even tho' I can still do a posting trot for miles (with stirrups)


----------



## Acadianartist

Animalia said:


> Good! That's what I was thinking too! That turd of a man needs to understand that REALLY working with a horse is very physical--overall. You spend a lot of time walking or jogging around on the ground. Grooming and lunging work the arms. Tacking up works all the muscles. Cleaning stalls and paddocks work all the muscles. If he still balks about the "cardio" or lack of it after the lesson (*maybe they can make sure his horse is WAY out so it takes him 10 minutes of walking to fetch it!) then have your daughter add 15 minutes of walking and jogging--with her horse in hand-- to her "plan". She probably already does that anyway throughout the whole process. What a fun thread--can't wait to see the outcome!


There is one horse that is impossible to catch (I don't have problems catching it but I always bring a treat and it knows that) so maybe he can take that horse. Or the one that plants its feet and refuses to move forward so you have to do circles, go sideways, pick a diagonal route, slap its rump. And we can have someone chase the horses way out to the back of the 20 acre pasture so he has to walk back through snow, mud and ice to get it. 

He told my daughter he was bringing his son, but then I found out his son is a baby (only 1)... not sure exactly what he expects a baby to get out of this, and I sure hope he has someone coming along to look after the baby while he rides (I mean surely, he does...). But hey, his whole family can come watch! In fact, I'd like to invite the entire school if I thought hey would fit. 

But you know what? If he loves his lesson, that's even better! More business for the coach.


----------



## AnitaAnne

Acadianartist said:


> There is one horse that is impossible to catch (I don't have problems catching it but I always bring a treat and it knows that) so maybe he can take that horse. Or the one that plants its feet and refuses to move forward so you have to do circles, go sideways, pick a diagonal route, slap its rump. And we can have someone chase the horses way out to the back of the 20 acre pasture so he has to walk back through snow, mud and ice to get it.
> 
> He told my daughter he was bringing his son, but then I found out his son is a baby (only 1)... not sure exactly what he expects a baby to get out of this, and I sure hope he has someone coming along to look after the baby while he rides (I mean surely, he does...). But hey, his whole family can come watch! In fact, I'd like to invite the entire school if I thought hey would fit.
> 
> But you know what? If he loves his lesson, that's even better! More business for the coach.


He is bringing a baby to the lesson? Oh my, I am beginning to feel sorry for the guy, he does not know what he is getting into!


----------



## LoriF

When is the lesson scheduled? I'm looking forward to reading about how it went. 

I honestly don't see how he could get the same workout that the kids get just from his lack of experience and not being able to do the same things that they do. I hope that you all get good and creative.


----------



## AnitaAnne

Acadianartist said:


> Right?! I just can't follow my daughter's group - they are all teenaged girls who compete in show jumping and ride daily. One girl has two horses, one experienced jumper and a 4 year old OTTB she is training (she's 16!). She rides both horses every day for an hour so they are fit enough to compete. Everyone is in awe of her. My daughter rides about 5-6 times a week during show season and I can't keep up
> 
> I usually try to get lessons from the coach's most advanced student who is also a certified coach, but is a little less demanding My daughter's coach is a little terrifying, to be honest, but boy, does she get results. However, you don't want to take lessons with her if your plan is to only ride once a week. It's just painful to do. But she's a competition coach, which is a special certification in Canada.
> 
> We also have a program here called LTED - Long Term Equestrian Development. It's available for jumpers, eventers and dressage riders, and it includes rider fitness evaluations (beep tests, planks, the whole gammet of fitness requirements you would find in any sport really). My daughter hasn't done it yet because Harley can't jump high enough for this program, but it shows how structured competitive riding is in Canada if you do it through sanctioned Equestrian Canada programs (which is what my daughter does through her rider levels).


Not many adults can keep up with kids that are competing! They are like Hot blooded horses; the more you work them the fitter they get, but they never run out of energy!!! 

I rode two hours/day five days/week plus a 45 min lesson and was super glad the youth had their own classes :smile:


----------



## Woodhaven

I too support having separate classes for the Jrs. I just hate it when the kids beat the pants off us Sr riders.


----------



## greentree

Too bad she doesn’t do vaulting..I would love to see him do that!! Film at 11..😂


----------



## AnitaAnne

greentree said:


> Too bad she doesn’t do vaulting..I would love to see him do that!! Film at 11..😂


:rofl: priceless!!! :rofl:


----------



## Acadianartist

greentree said:


> Too bad she doesn’t do vaulting..I would love to see him do that!! Film at 11..😂


She does, actually! But we won't ask him to do that


----------



## Acadianartist

LoriF said:


> When is the lesson scheduled? I'm looking forward to reading about how it went.
> 
> I honestly don't see how he could get the same workout that the kids get just from his lack of experience and not being able to do the same things that they do. I hope that you all get good and creative.


Yes, I am concerned about this. But that's also why I want him to ride with my daughter. I think the best thing to do is have a lesson with just the two of them (my daughter usually rides with a large group of riders at her level, but I think it would be too hard for the coach to focus on a beginner and a group of advanced riders literally running circles around him). While we figure he won't be able to do everything, at the very least, the coach will keep him trotting for a good long time as my daughter trots and canters beside him. Since he'll be on a lunge line, she can work on the other end of the arena so he can still see her. He won't be able to do the things she does, and safetey remains a priority if course, but even if he just gets a little taste of how hard it is while my daughter is making it look easy beside him, he might appreciate just how much effort riders have to expend at these lessons. 

He hasn't scheduled the lesson yet. I'm not sure he realizes they ride all winter outside. They were out today, jumping since the footing was good, though it was a raw, blustery day. I told my daughter to ask him where he was when she sees him tomorrow morning


----------



## Acadianartist

AnitaAnne said:


> He is bringing a baby to the lesson? Oh my, I am beginning to feel sorry for the guy, he does not know what he is getting into!


I know right? It's kind of weird that he thinks this is a good idea. I also don't think he realizes he has to catch, groom and tack up since touristy trail ride outfits just present you with a fully tacked-up horse. Not sure what he thinks a baby will do for an hour and a half of this.


----------



## LoriF

Someone really should tell him it's best to leave baby at home. Either that or set up a babysitter because you guys no better and he doesn't that he will need one.


----------



## Acadianartist

LoriF said:


> Someone really should tell him it's best to leave baby at home. Either that or set up a babysitter because you guys no better and he doesn't that he will need one.


Well I'm assuming his wife will come along... I mean obviously he can't hold the baby while he's riding so surely he has a plan. But yeah, I think the coach will need to explain a few things to him before he comes.


----------



## gottatrot

Maybe we have moved past this, but I just now caught up on the thread.

From what I have studied about exercise, some seem to be confusing cardio and aerobic and anaerobic exercise.

Basically aerobic is synonymous with cardiovascular exercise. This can be at any level from a brisk walk to running. It will result in improved cardiovascular conditioning, and that will mean anything from being able to walk up a flight of stairs without getting out of breath to being able to run six miles or a marathon. So it is mostly measured by your own body: if it increases your respiratory rate and heart rate for an extended period of time, it is cardiovascular/aerobic exercise. 

A person can be able to sing and talk while doing aerobic exercise, or completely breathless. That depends more on your fitness level than whether the activity is aerobic or not. For some people, walking briskly will get their heart and respiratory rate up as high as another person jogging. Understand that some people can carry on full conversations or sing songs while running 8 minute miles. Others can barely talk when walking. 

This is different from what some are describing, which is anaerobic exercise. Anaerobic exercise involves quick bursts of energy and "anaerobic" means it generates an oxygen debt. This is exercise you cannot sustain for long periods of time. Lactic acid can only be removed when oxygen is present, which is one reason why anaerobic activity is self-limiting. 

Horseback riding can be aerobic or anaerobic exercise. Anaerobic exercise includes things like sprinting and weight lifting, which you cannot sustain for a long period of time but will end up doing repetitions. For most of us riding is aerobic, most of the time. For some, very low level aerobic. Some are not improving their fitness level any more than if they went for a mile walk. 

I have experienced hard core anaerobic exercise on horseback. I've had horses pulling forward on the reins at the canter or gallop where my arms were sustaining muscle tension that would be the equivalent of holding up heavy weights, and had lactic acid build until I was shaking with exertion. I've had horses galloping very fast for ten minutes while I was in two point, and the muscle tension necessary to stay on the horse was similar also to doing a squat for ten minutes. That is anaerobic exercise.

Posting or cantering is usually more of a mid-level aerobic exercise. Some of it may depend on if you need to use your arms as large muscle groups along with your legs. If your heart rate does not get high enough on some horses, you might not be able to substitute it for a run, but I have often done hour long beach rides with tons of trotting, cantering and galloping in two point that were the equivalent of an hour long run, and if I substituted the ride for a run as an equivalent workout, my fitness level would maintain. 

Here is my friend doing some anaerobic exercise - her horse is galloping between 40 and 50 mph (per GPS)








Here she is doing mid-level aerobic exercise, with the muscles in her arms and legs working with every canter stride, which we often would canter for fifteen minutes at a time. Notice her arms.








It is interesting to me that usually if a horse is doing aerobic exercise, the rider is also, and if the horse is doing anaerobic exercise, the rider often is too.


----------



## Acadianartist

Thanks @gottatrot! That is a great breakdown! Yes, I suspect things like show jumping in speed classes might be anaerobic. And I agree about the fact that a very fit person might be able to have a conversation during aerobic exercise whereas someone less fit may struggle more. My daughter doesn't think her lessons with the coach are that hard, but she's young and fit, and has been doing this for 8 years. I, on the other hand, only take lessons sporadically and I'm not so young and fit, lol.


----------



## LoriF

gottatrot said:


> Maybe we have moved past this, but I just now caught up on the thread.
> 
> From what I have studied about exercise, some seem to be confusing cardio and aerobic and anaerobic exercise.
> 
> Basically aerobic is synonymous with cardiovascular exercise. This can be at any level from a brisk walk to running. It will result in improved cardiovascular conditioning, and that will mean anything from being able to walk up a flight of stairs without getting out of breath to being able to run six miles or a marathon. So it is mostly measured by your own body: if it increases your respiratory rate and heart rate for an extended period of time, it is cardiovascular/aerobic exercise.
> 
> A person can be able to sing and talk while doing aerobic exercise, or completely breathless. That depends more on your fitness level than whether the activity is aerobic or not. For some people, walking briskly will get their heart and respiratory rate up as high as another person jogging. Understand that some people can carry on full conversations or sing songs while running 8 minute miles. Others can barely talk when walking.
> 
> This is different from what some are describing, which is anaerobic exercise. Anaerobic exercise involves quick bursts of energy and "anaerobic" means it generates an oxygen debt. This is exercise you cannot sustain for long periods of time. Lactic acid can only be removed when oxygen is present, which is one reason why anaerobic activity is self-limiting.
> 
> Horseback riding can be aerobic or anaerobic exercise. Anaerobic exercise includes things like sprinting and weight lifting, which you cannot sustain for a long period of time but will end up doing repetitions. For most of us riding is aerobic, most of the time. For some, very low level aerobic. Some are not improving their fitness level any more than if they went for a mile walk.
> 
> I have experienced hard core anaerobic exercise on horseback. I've had horses pulling forward on the reins at the canter or gallop where my arms were sustaining muscle tension that would be the equivalent of holding up heavy weights, and had lactic acid build until I was shaking with exertion. I've had horses galloping very fast for ten minutes while I was in two point, and the muscle tension necessary to stay on the horse was similar also to doing a squat for ten minutes. That is anaerobic exercise.
> 
> Posting or cantering is usually more of a mid-level aerobic exercise. Some of it may depend on if you need to use your arms as large muscle groups along with your legs. If your heart rate does not get high enough on some horses, you might not be able to substitute it for a run, but I have often done hour long beach rides with tons of trotting, cantering and galloping in two point that were the equivalent of an hour long run, and if I substituted the ride for a run as an equivalent workout, my fitness level would maintain.
> 
> Here is my friend doing some anaerobic exercise - her horse is galloping between 40 and 50 mph (per GPS)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here she is doing mid-level aerobic exercise, with the muscles in her arms and legs working with every canter stride, which we often would canter for fifteen minutes at a time. Notice her arms.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is interesting to me that usually if a horse is doing aerobic exercise, the rider is also, and if the horse is doing anaerobic exercise, the rider often is too.


Your friend has a beautiful horse!!


----------



## Acadianartist

LoriF said:


> Your friend has a beautiful horse!!


Not to mention that scenery! The motherload of beautiful riding locations!!!


----------



## Thundering Hooves

I might have missed this.. but when is the ridding lesson?


----------



## weeedlady

subbing. Waiting with bated breath for updates,


----------



## Acadianartist

Thundering Hooves said:


> I might have missed this.. but when is the ridding lesson?


He hasn't scheduled it yet. The coach will contact me as soon as he does. I think he assumed my daughter just rides when the weather's nice. She asked why he didn't go last Sunday (her regular lesson is then) and he was a bit surprised she had ridden. It wasn't that cold, but very, very windy which made it unpleasant. But we've ridden in far worse weather. Rain, snow, cold... it's rare that a lesson is cancelled and there is no indoor!


----------



## RangerMan

I love this so much. I think everyone should ride a horse not just in a trail ride at least once!!!


----------



## makin tracks

Looking forward to seeing how he goes.

When I was full-time army we had to notify of any extra-curricula sports we did. I notified horse riding and got laughed out of the office. I explained that it is one of 4 things you HAVE to declare on life insurance (along with parachuting and motorcycle racing) and it is the oldest sport in the army (with a few naughty words thrown in).
They wouldn't have it. 
Luckily I didn't have to put the injury policy to the test. 

Still can't see how army does not recognise horse riding as a sport yet they recognise War Hammer as a sport ??? Go figure


----------



## LoriF

Nascar and Indy racing is considered a sport so why the heck can't riding horses be a sport? Chess is considered a sport to some. I think that there should be no question on to whether riding horses is a sport or not. Anything that combines athleticism, strategy and competition is considered a sport. Riding has all three.


----------



## FloridaRider

Hi,

I'm a distance runner with a resting heart rate in the low 50s (i.e. a pretty cardio fit person with great endurance). My last riding lesson was very easy because we were on a lunge line working on leg position so just posting to 2-point to posting to 2-point. My heart rate hit around 114 which is in the 70% zone for my age and counts as moderate aerobic exercise. I don't have any stats handy for a "hard" lesson put based on perceived effort, I'm betting I get "hard" or vigorous rating for a canter (I'm not a great rider yet so all that balance takes a lot of work and is harder than an hour of squats). For the record, I don't get out of breath running at 80% heart rate so if you are truly fit (or a serious chatterbox) that "can you talk thing" doesn't always work. Besides, if you are only getting 15 minutes of cardio, you going to have to be doing anaerobic not aerobic exercise to get any benefit. 15 minutes is NOTHING for cardio. I'm waiting with everyone else to hear the PE teacher result. I don't think horseback riding is up there aerobically with soccer, cross country or basketball but it's going to more than hold its own with wrestling, baseball, volleyball and weightlifting.


----------



## FloridaRider

Beautiful!


----------



## CarmieJo

I just put 100 bales of hay in the barn yesterday. I'd like to invite him to help with that!


----------



## CarmieJo

Acadianartist said:


> Yes, but he wants aerobic exercise. I mean, the other stuff is fine, but you know, not like running back and forth over imaginary lines chasing a dead animal skin. :icon_rolleyes:


This is a screenshot of my heart rate via my Fitbit. I was riding from noon until 1:30. Sure looks aerobic to me! That really low peak was when I got back in the truck after riding. Pretty good measure of my mental health after a good ride.


----------



## keelan

Good grief! this is so 40 years ago. Thank goodness I have had physical therapists, chiropractors, and my regular doctor is a D.O. who understand.
Not one of them has suggested I am out of condition. I ride dressage and trail.
Find physical therapists, chiropractors, and possibly a doctor who ride and have them inform the nit wit.


----------



## QueenofFrance08

A little late to the thread here but just wanted to share my "stats" from my Apple Watch. I'm not a jumper of course but trotting should still be trotting! 

Screen shots from my Apple Watch data from 9/21/19 when I rode a 60 mile endurance ride (I remember actual ride dates easier and it's more time riding). Keep in mind (you can tell from the end of the data) my watch and phone died around 3:00 p.m. and I was riding till about 6:00. Breaks would be our hour long hold/rest periods. 

The heart rate screen shot was just for a few minutes but most of the day was in a similar range. It was generally in the 140's and 150's which I would assume is normal trotting. Some periods above 160 which was the few canter spots, some periods of 110's and 120's which I think are walking periods. It went to about 60-70 during the low activity hold time.

Moral of the story, my heart rate is the same at a posting trot if not higher than when I run on the treadmill/do Beachbody videos at home.

Can't wait to hear about PE teacher's lesson!


----------



## Shanz197642

Keep us posted I could do with a good laugh😂😂


----------



## Acadianartist

LOVING all the data folks! Maybe my daughter needs a fitbit to show him how hard she's working! The thing is, she is actually very fit. Just has no interest in the sports he likes, ie, hockey, football, soccer, etc. 

No news from the coach yet about a lesson for teacher. Maybe over the holidays? I'm starting to think he might wimp out.


----------



## Celeste

Subbing.


----------



## Zack

Hmmm Hasn't shown up yet hug.... I'll bet you anything this "Health Teacher" is craming for his first lesson/test to insure he's not caught off guard. Problem is, and as many have stated herin, it takes alot more than one round to get acclimated.

A Fitbit or similar fitness watch would be a good show of indurance and other values this 'Health Teacher' is looking for, and would allow each child to perform as they wish/can as long as the watch could compensate the correct information. Medically speaking... not everyone reaches thier heart rates the same, and endurance levels are not equal either.

On that note, I have a Fossil Smart Watch Gen 5. If Horse related activities don't count, then lets have "Mr Teacher" explain why my health app (included within the watch OOTB) has a setting for Equestrian related fitness.

Technically... he can't say what is what is not accepted as a sport unless its clearly documented, and reasons as to why. Phys. Ed teachers are required to accept all children of various abilities, and are supposed to adjust/compensate for each, not compile them into bunch. 

Jock Boy needs a few goes around the roundpen . And although you can/cannot video tape (whole other thread), theres nothing saying the whole class can't show up to watch him.


----------



## Acadianartist

Hahaha... great idea about inviting the class to come watch @Zack! Still no sign of teacher. Don't know if he thinks they don't ride in cold weather... or he's just scared. 

You're right though, he won't be able to sustain required movements for the duration of a lesson so he may not get an aerobic workout from it. I agree about the fitbit idea, but don't want to buy one for my daughter just for this. Any other ideas about ways we could monitor her aerobic workout during a lesson? I guess she can take her pulse, but that's disruptive and not terribly practical in winter when she's wearing several layers.


----------



## PoptartShop

I feel like he probably wimped out...maybe he will surprise us! :rofl:


----------



## AtokaGhosthorse

Looking for the update! Also - ****. Not a real sport or a real workout people have never ridden. THERE IS A REASON beginner riders are so sore they cannot walk the next day. If that's not a workout, IDK what is.


I've told this story many many times, but three years ago, Hubs and I did our annual check up. Doc wanted me to lose 50 lbs... but I'm going to be happy with 30... I think clocking in at 150 is much too thin for me... anyway! It was February, I said, look. Yeah, I need to lose weight... but spring is right around the corner. I do heavy lawn work, landscaping, lawn maintenance from March till November... and I have horses now, and I'm about to really start riding a lot more (Trigger and I were just almost ready to Start Over and Try Again.)


Doc looks at me and interrupts. I kid you not.... Says: You need to be walking. Don't ride a horse... just lead the horse while you walk. It'll burn more calories and use more muscles than just sitting there and letting the horse do all the work.


I stared at him and the only thing I could blurt out was: Clearly you have no idea how much effort it takes for me to stay on a horse!


It was his turn to stare at me, then he said: Well. You're right. I really don't know much about horses.




Folks... It's taken me three years to not get sore or so tired I'm losing strength and balance on Trigger... I can ride him all day long now and not be sore the next day. I rode GINA most of the time while camping this weekend and let me tell ya. She's a substantial QH, and I'm hurting today.... and it's not just in my inner thigh. My CORE is killing me. And those are muscles I WILL not be using just walking a track, no matter how speedy I go.


The benefits of riding are plain to those of us who do it. Increased balance, improved motor skills, perhaps depth perception too, increased muscle strength, better posture because to do it properly you need to use your back muscles, your but muscles, your core, your thighs, all of it. There is also a reason Hippothereapy is a thing. Doc did try to say, well... but you won't be lifting anything to help keep your bone density up.


DOC. 50lb bags of feed, buckets of feed. Scrubbing out heavy rubber water troughs... lifting 45lb saddles, shoveling poop, throwing square bales... and in my case: Manually cranking a gooseneck up...


OWNING a horse is one helluva workout and riding one is too.

OP: I am SO looking forward to hearing coach's experience. If you don't update us, we're going to have to hunt you down in person and get it out of you.


----------



## AtokaGhosthorse

Acadianartist said:


> Hahaha... great idea about inviting the class to come watch @*Zack* ! Still no sign of teacher. Don't know if he thinks they don't ride in cold weather... or he's just scared.
> 
> You're right though, he won't be able to sustain required movements for the duration of a lesson so he may not get an aerobic workout from it. I agree about the fitbit idea, but don't want to buy one for my daughter just for this. Any other ideas about ways we could monitor her aerobic workout during a lesson? I guess she can take her pulse, but that's disruptive and not terribly practical in winter when she's wearing several layers.



Does she have a smart phone? My android has a preinstalled app on it for fitness. Get her a phone holster to go on her belt. I can tell you trail riding for 2 hours exceeds my daily fitness requirements by 3xs. Also... show him the results of this study out of Texas A&M... note the last two paragraphs, especially the one about childhood obesity.


If she has a smart phone, but no apps on it for fitness, my son uses sweatcoin and really likes it.


----------



## Acadianartist

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> Does she have a smart phone? My android has a preinstalled app on it for fitness. Get her a phone holster to go on her belt. I can tell you trail riding for 2 hours exceeds my daily fitness requirements by 3xs. Also... show him the results of this study out of Texas A&M... note the last two paragraphs, especially the one about childhood obesity.
> 
> 
> If she has a smart phone, but no apps on it for fitness, my son uses sweatcoin and really likes it.


Yes, she has a phone! But no data plan. Do you need a data plan for this? Maybe she can borrow hubby's phone for a ride. Or maybe I can ask the coach if she can use her Wifi for the lesson. I'm sure it would be fine. Great suggestion! Thanks for the study link


----------



## Celeste

Just for the record, I have outlived two doctors that told me that horseback riding had no health benefits. One was the same age as me. The other a bit older. 

One of the biggest health benefits for me is the psychological benefit. My horse gives me a reason.


----------



## Acadianartist

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> OWNING a horse is one helluva workout and riding one is too.
> 
> OP: I am SO looking forward to hearing coach's experience. If you don't update us, we're going to have to hunt you down in person and get it out of you.


Hahaha... I promise I will update if he ever goes to a lesson!!! 

As for owning a horse - I can also confirm it is a great way to stay fit! I have never been so fit in my life. I'm short, and petite, so at 125 lbs, I wasn't too big to start with. Then my son got sick last year, and I lost about 10 lbs. And no matter what I do, I CANNOT regain the weight! Don't get me wrong, I figure my ideal weight is where I am now - around 115. But I have been eating junk food all throughout the holidays, and yesterday, told my husband I don't understand how it is I am not gaining weight. He said are you kidding? You never stop! Between mucking out (winter is worse - frozen turds), hauling hay, carrying buckets of water, shoveling snow, riding and exercising (I am going through groundwork training with Rusty), I don't spend more than a couple of hours resting between workouts. I go to the barn 5 times a day, every day. I can hold planks longer than I ever have in my life - and I'm 49. 

Wish the teacher could spend a day doing all that!


----------



## AtokaGhosthorse

Acadianartist said:


> Yes, she has a phone! But no data plan. Do you need a data plan for this? Maybe she can borrow hubby's phone for a ride. Or maybe I can ask the coach if she can use her Wifi for the lesson. I'm sure it would be fine. Great suggestion! Thanks for the study link



Yeahhh. I think she will need data to run it. They really use a tiny bit of data up though, so perhaps adding very limited data to her line might be something to consider. There's a lot of equestrian riding apps too that will help keep up with how long, how far, etc.


Anecdotally, I can tell you kids that Horse and start horsing early and often, have insane balancing skills and I've yet to see one that's grossly overweight. Those little turds are always the fittest kids you'll ever meet - both mentally and physically. Especially the ones with a Saint Horse that lets the kids use them for a jungle gym and/or monkey bars.


----------



## AtokaGhosthorse

So what ever happened on this? Any more word Acadian?


----------



## Acadianartist

Nope, still waiting for him to schedule a lesson. Don't know if it will ever happen. DD is waiting for him to give her a grade on her training plan. If he refuses to let her use riding as part of her training plan, I will have to take it up with him. I gave the option of trying it out for himself. He said he would do some research. If he has not done either of those things and is still insisting riding is not aerobic exercise, then we're going to have to sit down with him. 

I can tell you that after my ride on Rusty last night (lesson at my house), every part of my body aches... my legs were jello after. I collapsed from exhaustion when it was finally time for me to go to bed. We may have overdone it a little... the coach is still trying to figure out when he is uncooperative because he doesn't feel like working and when he is uncooperative because he isn't fit enough to canter for sustained periods. Turns out it's we now agree that it's mostly the latter. Maybe the teacher should ride Rusty for an hour.


----------



## QtrBel

Can't help but add that it makes my heart smile to see posts about you and Rusty.


----------



## Acadianartist

QtrBel said:


> Can't help but add that it makes my heart smile to see posts about you and Rusty.


Well then, here's a nice distraction while we wait for the regular programming to resume. My photographer friend wanted to try out a new lens and came for a visit on New Year's Eve and took some nice shots of me and Rusty.


----------



## JoBlueQuarter

Acadianartist said:


> Well then, here's a nice distraction while we wait for the regular programming to resume. My photographer friend wanted to try out a new lens and came for a visit on New Year's Eve and took some nice shots of me and Rusty.


W h o a . That is an incredible photo. If I were you I would want it framed and up on every wall :lol:


----------



## Acadianartist

JoBlueQuarter said:


> W h o a . That is an incredible photo. If I were you I would want it framed and up on every wall :lol:


I have a few amazing photos of this guy and they are hanging everywhere in my house and office! My photographer friend is very talented, and I'm very fortunate that she likes to use us as subjects!


----------



## QtrBel

Beautiful!


----------



## AnitaAnne

Words can not describe how wonderful that photo is! Can feel the love pouring out from both of you, so happy to see you have found your heart horse!


----------



## Acadianartist

AnitaAnne said:


> Words can not describe how wonderful that photo is! Can feel the love pouring out from both of you, so happy to see you have found your heart horse!


Awww, thanks. I could not have had the courage to face the issues I had with Kodak without this forum. It was so good to hear from others who had initially bought a horse that wasn't good for them, and moved on to a horse that is a better match. Kodak is still in my barn, waiting for the right person to come along, but in the meantime, folks here reminded me that there might be a better horse for me out there. And boy, does Rusty ever fit that bill! He's not perfect. He's green, goofy, mouthy, gets bored, and has been known to be a little overenthusiastic on a trail. But he's never bitten or kicked, I've never even come close to falling off him, and he is smart, and affectionate, and loves people. He's learning that there are limits, learning to respect my space when I ask him to, learning to be compliant even when I ask him to do things he'd rather not do. We are both working hard to get better, but he's the most awesome horse I've ever met, and I feel completely comfortable on him (btw wear your helmets folks! This was just me playing with him in the paddock bareback for my photographer friend). He's still a horse, I know, and he requires my attention 100% of the time or he will drift, run off, decide that something else is more interesting than me... so we have to have a "conversation" at all times when I ride. I am becoming a better rider because of it. He's truly a gift.


----------



## 3Horses2DogsandaCat

I love that photo! Wow!!!


----------



## Acadianartist

Updating this thread to say... there is no update. 

My daughter finished her term with this phys ed. teacher and got her final grade which was excellent. So I guess he decided not to penalize her for being an equestrian. She asked him why he hadn't cashed in his lesson yet and he said maybe he'd go next summer. Sounds to me like he is wimping out which makes me sad and a little mad. He had an opportunity to experience a new sport personally and at my expense. He could have had a unique opportunity. But presumably, because he is a jock and did not want to look bad, opted not to do it. 

Very disappointing. Sorry I did not deliver a much-wanted video. We tried.


----------



## Acadianartist

But to distract everyone, and make us all less angry at non-horsey people who just don't get us, here's another nice photo of me and Rusty. I can actually ride him around tackless for a bit, but it's not very precise. We just have fun. I do adore this horse though.


----------



## COWCHICK77

That is too bad. 
It would of been nice to have someone who thinks the horse does all the work feel what it takes to ride and ride well. 

Lovely picture of you and Rusty!


----------



## AnitaAnne

Horses can be scary to people that don't understand them. He does not understand, and may not ever understand. But maybe he learnt not to be so quick to judge others, at least I hope so. 

So wonderful to have a horse we love and can bond so deeply with. Kodak can just be the sweet mare that is there for companionship. She is much happier this way too


----------



## Acadianartist

AnitaAnne said:


> Horses can be scary to people that don't understand them. He does not understand, and may not ever understand. But maybe he learnt not to be so quick to judge others, at least I hope so.
> 
> So wonderful to have a horse we love and can bond so deeply with. Kodak can just be the sweet mare that is there for companionship. She is much happier this way too


She is a sweetheart these days. And you know what? My daughter has ridden her a few times recently, while Harley was recovering from his severe diarrhea, and she was awesome! No more fits, no bucking, just lovely cantering in circles! I was so impressed (with both of them, to be honest). There's a part of me that recognizes that I'm just not the rider she needed, but I can still give her a great life, and she was terrific for my daughter - who makes me very, very proud, needless to say  I may not be the rider I'd like to be, but at least I was able to give that gift to my daughter.


----------



## Acadianartist

AnitaAnne said:


> Horses can be scary to people that don't understand them. He does not understand, and may not ever understand. But maybe he learnt not to be so quick to judge others, at least I hope so.
> 
> So wonderful to have a horse we love and can bond so deeply with. Kodak can just be the sweet mare that is there for companionship. She is much happier this way too


Double post.


----------



## Acadianartist

Kodak remains a very important part of our small herd. It's funny how a herd of three is different than having two horses. The dynamics change. There is always someone to diffuse situations (usually Kodak) and to keep a lone horse company. When you have such different personalities - Harley is a loner, Rusty is extremely gregarious, Kodak is a peacekeeper -. having three is actually a very good thing. Here are photos of Kodak.


----------



## rebeccad

Too bad!! I really thought the guy was going to find a new interest. Or to experience the intimidation of a 1200 lb animal that has it's own opinion. Either would have been gratifying. 

I am a photographer too. Wish I had snow to take pics of horses in. Anyway, there are beautiful photos, and there are photos that come alive bc you have captured the heart of your subjects. That photo of you hugging Rusty made me all warm and fuzzy inside. It isn't all about the camera, or the lens, or the pretty snow(although it all helped). A good photographer has the angle, the distance, chooses the correct perspective, knows which lens to choose, watches the background, frames the photo up well, and has impeccable timing. This picture is magical. Just anyone with a fancy camera does not have what it takes to capture a moment so special and don't even get me started on never having anything that didn't come out of a phone and only lives on the internet! I digress. 

Everyone should be so lucky to have found the right horse and anyone who has done so should find themselves an actual photographer.


----------



## Acadianartist

Wow, thanks @rebeccad. I am so fortunate to have found an incredible horse and to have a friend who is such an amazing photographer. She does a lot of wildlife photography, so yes, the conditions were interesting, and in fact, she came out that day (NY's eve!) just to get shots with snow falling. She was looking for good shots. We were just happy to provide them. I recognize my good fortune every day that I get to live it. 

To be fair, Rusty deserves a great deal of credit too. I have never known a horse with so many expressions. 

Keep at photography. It isn't as easy as it looks.


----------



## Thundering Hooves

Hey did the teacher ever ride?


----------



## pheobe111

Acadianartist said:


> But to distract everyone, and make us all less angry at non-horsey people who just don't get us, here's another nice photo of me and Rusty. I can actually ride him around tackless for a bit, but it's not very precise. We just have fun. I do adore this horse though.


oh my gosh he’s beautiful


----------



## Acadianartist

Thundering Hooves said:


> Hey did the teacher ever ride?


Nope. Never did. Wimp.


----------



## SueC

Yeah, typical, isn't it? First the big mouth, opened wide in ignorance. And then this:

:chicken: :chicken1: :chicken2: :chicken1: :chicken: :chicken2: :chicken:


:runpony:


----------



## Thundering Hooves

Wimp. plain old wimp.


----------



## Acadianartist

Yep. Very disappointing. I approached this with an open mind and a desire to educate. He had the opportunity to learn about a new sport at no cost to him. He can't be bothered because what, maybe he would be wrong? or maybe he'd look bad? I don't know. 

We are still taking it as a victory. My daughter got a great mark (because he didn't want me to march into his office and contest it, thus revealing his ignorance), and he will think twice next time about dismissing equestrian sports, hopefully.


----------

