# Horses With Poor Work Ethic



## enh817 (Jun 1, 2012)

It's almost entirely man-made. Horses just do what they think will get them release. If locking their feet down or going backward is how they've been able to find release in the past then it's how they will continue to try to find release in the future, until someone takes the time and patience to teach them another way to get release with lots and lots of repetition.

Unfortunately a lot of these issues start the day the horse is broke. One of my favorite sayings is "the first thing they learn is the last thing they forget". Those first 5-10 rides shape who the horse will be for the rest of his life. That's not to say that the horse can't be changed with lots of effort, but it's infinitely easier to just start them right from the beginning. It's why I'm against only walking or trotting the first rides. I think a horse needs to be taught to move forward freely at all gaits from day 1. 

Of course, a horse that was started properly can still be ruined by an uneducated/unskilled rider.


Either way, things like 'disrespect', 'lazy', 'poor work ethic', 'stubborn', 'mean' etc don't actually exist in horses. A horse just does what he has learned gets him release. Plain and simple. There's really nothing more going on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BreezylBeezyl (Mar 25, 2014)

While I agree with you for the most part, is it really unfair to say that personality/temperament has at least some merit to the train-ability of a horse? Just for discussion purposes.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

You are playing devil's advocate in the nature vs nurture argument.
ALL of this is in the training, and ALL of the fix is in the training.
It starts the way that you handle your horse when leading, grooming and everyday work.
A horse like this needs to be perfectly obedient in everyday handling, and THAT is where you begin to fix this bad behavior.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

You have presented enough clues to say the rider is new and inexperienced.

Husband"s of experienced riders don't walk along on their own two feet for moral support. The spouse either makes them ride or tells them to stay home.

I'd bet a lot of money the rider is lamenting this "isn't the same horse she bought six months ago" and she has no one to blame but herself.

Horses by nature will get away with whatever the rider lets them get away with. Some horses will take longer to take advantage but, sooner or later, I don't know a horse that won't act like that Appaloosa if a rider like you describe continues to try and ride that horse without the help of an experienced horse person.

I feel sorry for the horse as it is now wearing a bunch of negative labels it doesn't deserve. I'll bet the woman bought the horse for its looks; how well it would listen was third or lower on the list:icon_rolleyes:


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## enh817 (Jun 1, 2012)

Sure, horses have different personalities and those personalities can influence how they go about trying to find release, when they don't know the answer. One that has a tendency to be more aggressive in nature will try different aggressive behaviors when attempting to find a way out of pressure. One that tends to be more submissive in nature will try more submissive actions when trying to find release. One that tends to be more nervous in nature will try more scared actions when looking for release. 
But no matter how the horse's nature may influence his reactions, it's the trainer's job to teach the horse what is acceptable and what is not, by making sure the horse doesn't get release unless it responds in the 'right' way. 
The horse's innate nature influences how he will attempt to find release, when he does not know the answer, when he is learning something new. What the trainer does with that dictates how the horse will respond in the future. 

Which brings me back to colt starting. Those first few interactions (which is why I'd infinitely rather start horses that have never been touched before) have so much influence on how the horse's thought process will work when he is faced with new learning situations in the future. An innately aggressive, pushy, overly fearful, lazy, (etc etc) nature can be squashed if dealt with properly from day 1. Sure, you may see little glimmers of that personality peeking through, in that horse's future. But generally, if you teach a horse how to deal with pressure appropriately in the beginning, they go on to be great, easily trainable, easy to get along with, members of society. 

The problem is that too many people who have no business starting colts, think that just because they can get through it without getting hurt or having any big blowups, they should. Often times, a fairly big confrontation is necessary on the first few days, to get the horse on the right page, as the horse attempts to figure out how to respond to pressure. It's important to identify and address potential issues, in their entirety from the get-go, even if it's not so pretty to watch, so that the horse can go on to live a relatively conflict free life. I get really nervous starting a colt, if it goes too smoothly. I want to see them protest and try out different options they think might bring them release. I want things to get ugly, so I can deal with them right then and there, not later down the road once they've manifested into much bigger problems. I encourage those early 'blowups', so that I can handle them, and then move on and be done with it. 

Ray Hunt said -- Let the worst come out, and then work up from there.


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## Saskia (Aug 26, 2009)

walkinthewalk said:


> Husband"s of experienced riders don't walk along on their own two feet for moral support. The spouse either makes them ride or tells them to stay home.


Gotta disagree on this. My partner comes walking with me on trails on occasion, he likes bush walking and I like horse riding. We have some beautiful trails around so it's a bit of a compromise. It would be nice if he rode but I could never afford two. Often the trails wind so he can take a short cut with the dog and I can go faster the long way.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I won't comment on that horse in particular but I will say not every horse is created equal.

Some horses are started properly, have all thins going for them, and still won't have the mind or motivation to do anything. Horses are like people - While on a base level they can all be rewarded with release, that doesn't mean they will all train the same, or want to work the same.

When I was working under a trainer we had this a lot. Out of ten two year olds, a year of riding, all of them were good horses, all had the same amount of training and were very lovely rides, but you might get one who was a truly great horse. It is hard to explain what a great horse feels like unless you have ridden one. They are in a level of their own, that is for sure. 

That doesn't mean the others aren't good. It's just a different feeling.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I agree that horse with poor work ethics, for the most part, are that way because of human training problems.
Sure, there are horses with more 'heart/try', those that will continue to perform, even when hurting, but most horses bred today, if trained correctly have good work ethics
I agree that anyone trying to trail ride a horse, that sounds spoiled, with hubby walking along, spells 'amateur incompetent horse person
I have trail ridden ans shown numerous horses, mainly Appaloosas, and in fact, was out for a 4 day camping/riding mountain trip , just lately
My horses never refuse any obstacle, go along on a loose rein, and walk out without any need to encourage them to do so.
They stand tied all night, and are ready to ride out in the morning, after being fed-no lunging, etc
While, my hubby will get off and walk at times, as he simply gets sore, not riding regularly like I do, but no way would I consider a 'real mountain trail ride with him trying to walk the entire way, while I rode! First of all,, a trail ride often means 20 to 30 miles, crossing rivers, and I don't care how well a person might be able to walk, he is not going to even come close to keeping up with me on a horse.
Nope, not going to see anyone hiking along on foot, where I ride! 
That horse needs training, and does not belong on a trail ride until be is truly broke He then needs a competent rider to INSTILL good work ethics
As Mary Twelve ponies often said , 'there are no problem horses, just problem people"
To answer the Op's question;
I don't need to deal with a horse like this, as I train them correctly from the start


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Saskia said:


> Gotta disagree on this. My partner comes walking with me on trails on occasion, he likes bush walking and I like horse riding. We have some beautiful trails around so it's a bit of a compromise. It would be nice if he rode but I could never afford two. Often the trails wind so he can take a short cut with the dog and I can go faster the long way.



Depends on where you ride. Would not work where I ride. No short cuts-just long mountain trails, that cross rivers. The dog comes along, following the horses.
Also, while your example is a compromise, that works for you, having only one horse and a partner that does not ride, with you riding some longer loops, it is not the same as the case of the horse in this thread, who is spoiled, refuses rider cues, with hubby walking along to try and help control the horse, who does not belong on a trail, or at least, not ridden by that rider

going to have along wet walk!


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

I have had the pleasure of working with some horses with p*ss poor work ethics. And I really do mean pleasure (I'll get to why in a moment).

My belief is that some horses are more prone to give up and stall out than others, but only get that way with insensitive handling and riding. Not quick enough or ill-timed release or worse yet, no release diminish the "try", "heart" and "honesty" in any horse, but some, often those described as stubborn (who are really just very intelligent) suffer the most and become "dull" and "bullish".

I find that restoring a horse's drive to try comes from patient and soft riding with a lot of feel and rewarding even the slightest try. It also helps to find something that the horse sees purpose in. Trail riding a stubborn arena horse, incorporating obstacles into the routine for horses that get bored and are highly intelligent, putting dressage horses on cows from time to time. Doing SOMETHING that the horse finds purposeful and fulfilling. My appy (a smart breed often labeled as stubborn and knotheaded) was starting to get a bit sour at the end of last winter. This spring and summer we started over fences and he perked up. It's important to see the resistance in its beginning stages as it's much easier to correct a slightly bored horse than it is to break a horse that gets into habitual napping.

And why I like these horses when I get them: when you find a job that sparks their interest it is SO rewarding to see that personality change. A heavy, dull horse can suddenly feel light and bouncy. A sticky horse, forward and free. It is wonderful!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

True, many horses become sour from repetitive arena performance type events, and a change of a job works wonders
That is why in any good performance training program, part of that training involves time just being ridden out
My son spent one summer, while going to University, working for a well known working cowhorse trainer.
After those colts had a month on them, they were just ridden out, at least once a week
I ride all my horses out, including my show horses.
This is 'maintenance', preventing a horse from becoming sour, that is drilled over and over again on the same maneuvers, however, I still expect that horse to do his job when asked to
A horse that refuses to move forward on a trail, displaying various forms of resistance, is way different that a burned out reiner, barrel horse, ect- but is a horse that has learned he can resist the rider's aids, intimidate the rider , to get out of work or not going where asked, as in buddy or barn sour
This type of horse is purely man made, through incorrect training and handling
Horses learn bad habits as well as good habits, and why it is said that we train a horse, each and every time we handle or ride them-either for the good or the bad


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I don't agree that issues like a poor work ethic or laziness are 100% man made, but I would guess at least 90% probably are.

What the OP is describing certainly sound like nothing more than a training problem rather than anything else.

On the other hand, I have a draft cross who is what I consider naturally lazy. He has been this way since he was born. It hasn't made training him impossible, just more difficult. His favorite speed has always been "asleep" and it took a LOT of work to teach him to be responsive.

Now, at 6 years old (started him in earnest at 4), he has all the buttons that any good cowboy could possibly want and they are very sensitive. He'll pick up a lope from a standstill, collected and on the correct lead from nothing but a tightened calf, when asked to turn, he gives his best impression of a reining horse with a slight movement of the reins. He'll drag his butt and leave a nice set of 11s when I sit down and ask...but stopping has always been his best maneuver LOL.


I can get him to do all of this easily....but if given the choice, he would happily plod along an easy trail half asleep because he's just lazy and slow. I have to work hard to ride him and keep him soft.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

I sent my young stallion to a guy for a bit of finishing. I had never started a stock horse before, and he looked like a potential reining horse. I rode him for the guy, showed him what I had done, and he said he looked good, but two weeks later, he said he did not think the horse was what I wanted.....as he put it, the horse was sulling up and refusing to work. I went and picked the horse up. 

The only thing this horse has shown me he does not like is water. He will go through, but he does not like it. 

Willow, if you had driven up to the barn when that trainer was on MY horse, you would have thought the same thing you did with the Appy. It would not be the impression that EVERYONE else who has ever met my horse has gotten.....


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Well, yes, a bad trainer can cause a horse to become either sullen resistant, by pushing that horse too hard
There is also the possibility that the owner never really pushed that horse past his comfort level, and all at once, that trainer is-so that horse sulls .
Certainly, there are horses that are more responsive than others, and I would never expect a draft cross, esp if that cross was not to a hot blood (Arabian, TB ), to be responsive or 'feely, like a well bred working stock horse, esp one that is cutting bred
However, while my horses certainly work at the level of the rider, meaning if I put a beginner rider on them, they will put out minimum effort, but they will not balk, refuse to pick up a gait, if cued correctly
Lets be honest, most horses, if allowed, would rather hang out with buddies, grazing etc, than working. That is just being a horse.
However, with the right training, good work ethics can be instilled in most horses, with some horses of course, having that little extra try and heart, esp those that go on to being champions
Yes, a spoiled horse has poor work ethics, but it is who ever trained him, that allowed him to become that way
Of course, someone riding a green horse out, without the ability to push that green horse through stuff, is the creator of that horse with 'poor work ethics, as the right thing was never made easy, while the wrong thing was made hard.
If a horse balks and the rider thus lets him get out of work, he is, in the horse's m,ind, rewarding that balk, so why would he then not balk, if going down that trail by himself did not appeal to him?
Who trained him to have poor work ethics?


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> I don't care how well a person might be able to walk, he is not going to even come close to keeping up with me on a horse.


You sure about that? Think Tevis Cup v.s. Western States Endurance Run. Same course. Western States Trail. First is on a horse, second on foot. 100 miles in 24 hours for both.


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

enh817 said:


> It's almost entirely man-made. Horses just do what they think will get them release.
> Either way, things like 'disrespect', 'lazy', 'poor work ethic', 'stubborn', 'mean' etc don't actually exist in horses. A horse just does what he has learned gets him release. Plain and simple. There's really nothing more going on.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I disagree with you on this. I had a colt that I started with a very respected trainer. From day one this colt was lazy and disrespectful. He'd kick out at you, he'd nip, he refused to do as he was told. I can say 100% it was not something that we 'trained' him in. 

You can have naturally stubborn horses, and you can have man made stubborn horses. The trick is handling it to the individual horse. Some need more involved training activities, others need a stern "come meet God" meeting.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

WillowNightwind said:


> While we are discussing it, do you think that some horses are just born with a poor work ethic or is is all a result of training? Will some horses be doomed to be follow-the-leader trail horses because of it, or is there always hope?


Training. Period. 

Horses will do what you allow them to. A horse can be laid back without being lazy. There is a difference. Laid-back is a personality trait. Lazy is a learned behavior. 

So with that said, yes, you will take their individual personality into consideration when you train them. You are going to approach an "annoyed-type" of personality differently than a "sloth-type" personality. But, no matter what personality the horse has, they should still be expected to respond briskly and promptly to any cue you give them. 

And yes, some horses will challenge you more than others and some horses will always try to get away with things. Those ones (as the rider) you need to stay perfectly consistent with 100% of the time. Other horses are going to be more "forgiving" and won't revert to a bad behavior if the rider slips up. But end result is that training is training. 

For your little scenario you talked about, I'll bet if you put an experienced person on that horse's back that knows what they are doing, you'd have a different horse in about 15 minutes. Horses are smart. THey know if they can get away with something.


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

I think there is a difference between a naturally lazy horse and one who has no work ethic or sullens up.
I have ridden both and I find the lazy horse will do what you ask, just not as "sharply" while the one who has decided to quit protests. The lazy horse sometimes is too lazy to protest, lol!

ETA, after reading beau's post, perhaps when I say lazy I am really referring to a laid back horse. Semantics!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> You sure about that? Think Tevis Cup v.s. Western States Endurance Run. Same course. Western States Trail. First is on a horse, second on foot. 100 miles in 24 hours for both.


Well, maybe an exceptional long distance runner, but quite sure the average man is not going to keep up with my horse, even though my horse is not in endurance riding condition!


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

smrobs said:


> I don't agree that issues like a poor work ethic or laziness are 100% man made, but I would guess at least 90% probably are.
> 
> What the OP is describing certainly sound like nothing more than a training problem rather than anything else.
> 
> ...


My draft cross is the same way. Definitely more "whoa" than "go." One thing I never had to teach him was how to stand still. :lol: BUT, if I really ask him to, he'll go. 

However, there is a point where it becomes training and who is handling the horse.

Perfect example is my gelding. Last time my best friend rode him, he was a bear for her. Any time he thought he could tell her "NO!" he did. She even set spurs to him a couple of times just to make him walk on (never said she was a great rider...there's a reason she doesn't ride my horse anymore). She got frustrated and got off, handing me the reins with "Let's see what he'll do for you" in a disgusted tone. I climbed up on him and he was perfect. His turns were light, he moved out with purpose when asked, he even trotted a little for me (we only did a little bit because of me, not because he didn't want to). My BO was cracking up because he was totally Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde for us. :icon_rolleyes:

I find it amusing how horses seem to automatically know who will more likely let them get away with stuff. I worked at a Girl Scout horse camp as a wrangler. It was my job to ride the horses who had been naughty for the girls and get them straightened out. The majority of the time, I had witnessed the misbehavior, so I knew what to work on with them. Without fail, that horse would not put a toe out of line once I got in the saddle.


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## ChitChatChet (Sep 9, 2013)

Hondo said:


> You sure about that? Think Tevis Cup v.s. Western States Endurance Run. Same course. Western States Trail. First is on a horse, second on foot. 100 miles in 24 hours for both.





> In 1974, with the inspiration and encouragement of Drucilla Barner, 1st woman to win the Tevis Cup and Secretary of the WSTF, Tevis veteran Gordy Ainsleigh joined the horses of the Western States Trail Ride to see if he could complete the course on foot. Twenty-three hours and forty-two minutes later Gordy arrived in Auburn, proving that a runner could indeed traverse the rugged 100 miles in one day.


 From How it All Began – Western States Endurance Run


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

There is also the fact, Hondo, while those human athletes finished in the allowable time, they were far off from winning times of horses for Tevis cup

Tevis Cup Winners


While to finish is to complete that ride, that deadline of time, is not one and the same with a wiinning time!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Looking at the records though, there were a few human runners that came very close to the slower winning times of horses-truly a great accomplishment!


Best time for a human, that I found, was by Timothy olsen- 14.46
, while that for ahorse was 10.46, thus, putting best human against best horse, still have to wait 4 hours for that human to catch up!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Getting back on topic- I agree that smart horses will test a rider, and there are 'one man horses made-those that will work for that person, but show blatant mis behavior, to the point of bucking and rearing with others
Those horses in reality, are spoiled horses. I should know, having created such a horse when I was a kid, and knew no better!
Without any knowledge, I trained a filly, born to one of our draft mares to both ride and drive. I could do anything with Beauty. She came when I called, I rode her every where, taught her to pull a cutter
On the other hand, my younger brother had to often jump into the water trough, to avoid her charge. 
When it was time for Beauty to go to work, pulling a tobacco boat, only I could hook her up, as she would kick at any of the workers. I thus spent a summer out in the tobacco fields as a 13 YEAR OLD GIRL, WITH THE TRANSIENT WORKERS, (sorry hit cap key ), hooking and un hooking Beauty for the tobacco boat at the end of each row. I ultimately sealed her fate, when my step dad sold her, as she would work for no one else.
I have been very careful to never create such a horse again, and these horses are not created by good professional trainers, or they would never go on to being good youth and non pro horses
Yes, there are a few horses born with truly bad minds, but we no longer need to keep and make every horse 'useful', as in days of old, where we relied on horse power.
The truly bad minded horse needs to be culled, as there are too many good minded horses that wind up un wanted, due to over breeding
Thus, while I will concede that the very odd horse with poor work ethics are not man made, there is also the fact that we should not be breeding that type of horse, or keeping him in the gene pool.
There are afew horses that truly belong in that dog food can, looking out!


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> My draft cross is the same way. Definitely more "whoa" than "go." One thing I never had to teach him was how to stand still. :lol: BUT, if I really ask him to, he'll go.
> 
> However, there is a point where it becomes training and who is handling the horse.
> 
> ...


Horses certainly do know who is on their back, whether it be for better or for worse!!

This is Selena with four different riders - Myself running barrels, my semi-disabled Mother doing an extreme trail course, Andrew also running barrels, and finally little Maya (Age 8) doing a bombproofing course.


































Regardless of her ability to do all these things, and even though she is a wonderful companion and a great mare, she will never be what she has the potential to be. Why? Well, in the spirit of this thread, I'd like to point out she has a bad work ethic.

The mare is lazy. Always has been, always will be. I disagree with Beau who stated laziness was made by training - I think it is a personality trait. It took a lot of work to get this mare ready to show, and to get her responsive, and even with that she never will be a top competitor because she doesn't have the desire to give that extra 10% that she needs. 

Now, I want to share this video. This is a friend of mine. Both this mare (Spin) and Selena are by a son of Smart Little Lena, and out of Doc/Two Eyed bred mare. Cousins, if you will. Both are tiny - We're talking 14h with shoes on. The difference between them? Well, watch the video. Spin will give you that extra 10%. Watch how that mare turns - She's trying her darndest. Selena runs too, and she runs well, but she would never do what this mare has done, and that's okay. That extra try can't be trained in. That doesn't mean my horse is necessarily bad, it just means she has a different path than Spin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UjmbsWdu2M


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## enh817 (Jun 1, 2012)

Incitatus32 said:


> I disagree with you on this. I had a colt that I started with a very respected trainer. From day one this colt was lazy and disrespectful. He'd kick out at you, he'd nip, he refused to do as he was told. I can say 100% it was not something that we 'trained' him in.
> 
> You can have naturally stubborn horses, and you can have man made stubborn horses. The trick is handling it to the individual horse. Some need more involved training activities, others need a stern "come meet God" meeting.



How can you call a horse lazy or disrespectful from day 1? On day 1, you couldn't expect him to already know what you wanted from him? 
'He refused to do as he was told'... No. 
He didn't know the 'right' way to respond to what you were asking, so he was just trying different things he thought might bring him release (and that probably did bring him release, whether you realize it or not). 
No, you didn't train him to behave that way, those are horses' natural responses to pressure. But if those behaviors continued, then you obviously didn't train them out of him. 
That's not stubbornness, that just a horse responding to pressure in the best way he knew how. Either it worked for him, so the behaviors continued, or it didn't so he tried other options until he found the responses you were looking for. 
Your colt doesn't sound any different than most of the colts we get in to start. 


Horses don't want confrontation. Period. They just want the fastest way out of pressure, and they're very adept at finding it. It's up to the trainer to make sure that only the 'right' behaviors get them out of pressure. A horse will not act 'stubborn' and 'refuse' to behave just because. A horse that appears to be acting in that way, is simply a horse that doesn't understand that the behavior you are looking for is the one that gets them out of pressure. 100% training error.

If your 'respected trainer' wrote that off on the horse, then I'm sorry, but they aren't as skilled as you think.


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## enh817 (Jun 1, 2012)

Sorrel Horse, I agree with you that some horses have that extra something, that try, that give it all they have and keep giving, that other horses don't. And it's usually the difference between a good horse and a great performance horse. 
But, I think the point is, that even though your mare has a tendency to not want to try as hard as she could, your good training has made her into a horse that will do her job and respond when asked. 
She doesn't sull up and refuse to work does she? 
You showed examples of her working for other, less skilled riders. So I would hardly consider her the same as the horses that the OP is talking about. For the majority of riders, not trying to be super competitive at a high level of competition, I believe your Selena would be a fabulous horse! And obviously you like her a lot. So while, her 'try' and 'heart' may leave something to be desired, I think you illustrate the point we've been trying to make beautifully -- A horse, no matter his innate personality, can be made into a good, willing partner, with the right training. They might not be as great as a horse that has the heart to work itself to death, but they won't be a 'problem' horse in anyone's book  
You have an awesome mare, that will competitively run barrels with you and also take care of less experienced riders! 

Just out of curiosity, did you start Selena?


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## Chasin Ponies (Dec 25, 2013)

Smilie said:


> True, many horses become sour from repetitive arena performance type events, and a change of a job works wonders
> That is why in any good performance training program, part of that training involves time just being ridden out
> My son spent one summer, while going to University, working for a well known working cowhorse trainer.
> After those colts had a month on them, they were just ridden out, at least once a week
> ...


Soooo much truth in this!!!! A bored, burned out horse appears to have a bad "work ethic" but get them out of that awful daily roundy, round routine in the arena and you'll see what you really have. I know so many show people who never ride outside the arena and many who also never allow them even turnout for fear of a scratch. I find this to be horribly damaging to the mindset of any horse.


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> smrobs said:
> 
> 
> > I don't agree that issues like a poor work ethic or laziness are 100% man made, but I would guess at least 90% probably are.
> ...


My TB is like that but with me never wants to go but that may be a bit my fault as I spent the last 4 months asking for more whoa then go but my friend who sometimes hacks him out always likes to go fast so when she gets on him he is all run run run !


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

SorrelHorse said:


> Horses certainly do know who is on their back, whether it be for better or for worse!!
> 
> This is Selena with four different riders - Myself running barrels, my semi-disabled Mother doing an extreme trail course, Andrew also running barrels, and finally little Maya (Age 8) doing a bombproofing course.
> 
> ...



Again, poor work ethics to the point of refusing to work, exhibiting dangerous behavior, are not one and the same with natural ability, having more , heart,drive/adrenaline, than a horse that is less sensitive, has a good dash of cold blood. The latter actually make good amateur horses, as some very talented horses are not easy rides for amateurs. While these horses might never win an open, say, NRHA title, they will faithfully run an average score, time and time again, making them great amateur horses
There is a reason horses are divided into three main groups, aCCORDING TO BLOOD
Cold bloods -bred to pull
Warmbloods -most of our riding horses (as opposed to WARMBLOODS, bred for the sport horse industry )
Hot bloods -Arabians and TBs -blood used in racing, whether endurance or on the track

I know that infusing bone and size is often accomplished by breeding out to a draft horse, and sometimes that cross works, with that offspring getting that athletic movement,,, conformation from that hot blood, and the bone, easy temperament, size from that draft I have also seen the opposite, with that cross getting the conformation of that draft and the temperament of the hot blood
When you cross a draft with a stock horse, you actually have a 'luke warm'

As for your example of 'ability/try between two horses that have similar breeding-of course that exists, or we would not have those champions that stand out, heads above full siblings. Imagine the monopoly on NRHA or Tri[ple Crown winners, if all it took, and all that was at play, was breeding that same mare and stallion together, then training and managing them the same. Maybe in the future, when cloning becomes common!
Anyway, you are confusing ability, heart, something that puts those champions above the average, has ahorse out perform at times, the limits suggested by his conformation, etc, with poor work ethics to the point the horse REFUSES to work-period


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

enh817 said:


> Sorrel Horse, I agree with you that some horses have that extra something, that try, that give it all they have and keep giving, that other horses don't. And it's usually the difference between a good horse and a great performance horse.
> But, I think the point is, that even though your mare has a tendency to not want to try as hard as she could, your good training has made her into a horse that will do her job and respond when asked.
> She doesn't sull up and refuse to work does she?
> You showed examples of her working for other, less skilled riders. So I would hardly consider her the same as the horses that the OP is talking about. For the majority of riders, not trying to be super competitive at a high level of competition, I believe your Selena would be a fabulous horse! And obviously you like her a lot. So while, her 'try' and 'heart' may leave something to be desired, I think you illustrate the point we've been trying to make beautifully -- A horse, no matter his innate personality, can be made into a good, willing partner, with the right training. They might not be as great as a horse that has the heart to work itself to death, but they won't be a 'problem' horse in anyone's book
> ...


Thank you, she is a special mare. I agree definitely that good training will make any horse a good horse, but most other issues like the OP described are caused by either bad training or discomfort. 

I did not start Selena, though her and I have been through the ringer together. I bought her very young, she had been ridden in reining training for about a year, and she was a "problem child". A very long story summed up in a nutshell, she had a career change and a LOT of extra wet saddle blankets to become the lovely thing she is today. I have had her for roughly seven years now, she is coming ten. She did help me a lot though, let's just say - She really helped me develop a strong seat!! LOL.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Smilie said:


> Again, poor work ethics to the point of refusing to work, exhibiting dangerous behavior, are not one and the same with natural ability, having more , heart,drive/adrenaline, than a horse that is less sensitive, has a good dash of cold blood. The latter actually make good amateur horses, as some very talented horses are not easy rides for amateurs. While these horses might never win an open, say, NRHA title, they will faithfully run an average score, time and time again, making them great amateur horses
> There is a reason horses are divided into three main groups, aCCORDING TO BLOOD
> Cold bloods -bred to pull
> Warmbloods -most of our riding horses (as opposed to WARMBLOODS, bred for the sport horse industry )
> ...


If you read the whole thread and say my original post, you would know I am not confused at all.

I'm not touching the horse the OP described. We have all reached the general consensus that bad behaviors like that are almost always man made or a result of discomfort or something along those lines. What I AM saying, is that horses do naturally have poor work ethics. I'm not talking about a man made refusing, dangerous behavior - I'm talking about a horse who has a personality that naturally dictates they don't want to have a job, they don't want to go to work, and they don't want to do anything for you.

I've had horses like this is multiple respects. Selena, as she was my example, at least cares that you exist. She doesn't have any extra drive in her brain to go to work, but she cares about you. I've met horses who don't give a flying hoot that you even exist, will flat out ignore your presence, and don't care what makes you happy. Three years ago I started one exactly as I describe - Yeah, we got her broke. She sold to California last year. Finished cutter. We got her stopping, turning, changing leads, working a cow, etc. Yet her natural "I don't care about you at all" personality made her a natural challenge. 

That's the only point I'm trying to make. Completely disregarding man made and pain related bad behavior, not all horses are created equal, as is the case of Selena and Spin. No matter how well bred, how well conformed, how pretty or how athletically talented they are - They can still choose to flip you the hoof, or not have the drive to work. And that's fine, that's how we separate good horses from great ones. I don't really think we are disagreeing on anything at all here.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Well, I have to say, some of it is personality. I have one of those, and as some of you have heard before, this is a horse that "sulls up"-always has and always will. I will always wonder why he does what he does and continues to do it even though he knows it buys him more work. I have to believe that some of it is his personality-he has "make me do it" attitude, and can really get pretty ****y about it from time to time. Perhaps some of it was caused by the original owner, who spoiled him terribly, but whatever-noone has ever been able to train it out of him. He has had over 14 months with great trainers-including 8 months with a well respected reining trainer, who told me he will always do this. Period. Sometimes I think he is too smart for his own good-sometimes I think it is just plain attitude. He is not allowed to "get away with it", and hasn't in the 4 years I have had him. I am consistent, and it NEVER gets him out of work. Quite the contrary. 
In the ring, he also is one who will test every person who gets on him to see if they have the ability to ride him. He is never dangerous, just refuses to go forward unless he knows you will make him. On the trail-I could put a monkey on him and he will go. 
He is a challenge for sure, and definitely more "whoa than go". Parking attendant would be his favorite job.
90% of the time he is fabulous-safe, smooth and goes at whatever gait I ask, until asked to change. The other 10%-well…….he keeps me thinking. At least he is always safe and never does anything stupid or dangerous.
I also have to say I agree totally with horses souring from too much of the same thing. My friend has a Gunner gelding that was started young, and brought along aggressively at a very young age in hopes he would make a derby horse. He did not. But he has grown to HATE the reining pen. Thankfully, my friend, even though she bought him to be competitive at reining, has the smarts to recognize this. She took him out of training, brought him home, started riding out regularly, and has even started reined cow horse with him, which is more relaxed. He is a totally different horse, to the point that Aaron Ralston, who has seen this horse 2 years in a row at a local clinic remarked on the huge improvement. Win-win for all involved. No more fighting for lead changes…..he is a happy boy with a happy owner.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

SorrelHorse said:


> The mare is lazy. Always has been, always will be. I disagree with Beau who stated laziness was made by training - I think it is a personality trait. It took a lot of work to get this mare ready to show, and to get her responsive, and even with that she never will be a top competitor because she doesn't have the desire to give that extra 10% that she needs.


Let me clarify. 

ALL horses can be trained to respond briskly and promptly to a cue. If you let them be lazy to your aides, then they will be lazy to your aides. For example: If you have to kick your horse 3 times to get them to go from a stop into a walk. That's lazy. With good training, all you have to do is squeeze your legs and they should move into the walk right away. Simply because you asked them to do it and it is there job to do what you ask.

But of course, there are going to be horses that will give you 110% of the their heart, and horses that just won't. That's not what I'm talking about. So sure, Selena doesn't have to desire to give that extra "zip" in a spin. Your right; you can't train that. The horse has to want to do it. But she'll still move into a spin when you ask her to do one, without hesitation, right? Might not score as well as the horse who gives it 110%, but good training can still give you a good response from the horse. THAT'S what I am referring to.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Thanks, Sorrel, for the clarification.
These threads do go sideways, and many here , have gotten away from the original thread and type of horse, a horse that refuses cues and becomes openly resistrant. 

That horse is not a horse that has been over worked on a pattern, thus becoming show, or at least event sour, but a horse simply asked to down a trail

These horses are mostly man made.

Far as 'try, heart, ability, little bit extra a horse gives, far as willing to please, that is an entirely different topic. I think we agree on that point


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

I have had lazy, sourish type horses become very pliable, light and energetic after riding them regularly and building up their stamina. Their demeanors change when you condition them, they look forward to the endorphine release when exercised.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

waresbear said:


> I have had lazy, sourish type horses become very pliable, light and energetic after riding them regularly and building up their stamina. Their demeanors change when you condition them, they look forward to the endorphine release when exercised.


True. When mine is ridden at least 4 times a week, he is wonderful. However, working cramps my style.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

ChitChatChet said:


> From How it All Began – Western States Endurance Run


Lady I worked with before retiring rode the Tevis before it was Tevis. She knew the guy that started it on foot. I think he rode the horses too but don't quote me. Anyhow she said he was a card (cutup) type person popular with everyone. He decided if a horse could do it carrying somebody he should be able to do it carrying nothing. He did.

And it grew. Now a person has to qualify just to be entered into the drawing as the size had to be limited.

I did 14 miles of the course on foot and averaged about 3.9 MPH. Guys that run that train for a long time and take a couple of weeks to recover.

Smilie, not fair to compare an average man with a way way experienced horse woman. We gotta have a more level playing field than that.

I worked in Pagosa Springs, CO one year (1966?) and did a lot of hiking. I caught up with a couple on horses. Talked and they took off. Caught them again. And again. They finally decided their horses were getting tired. I continued. Seems the round trip was about 23 miles. I was 25 YO.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I'm gonna post a thought that keeps bugging me and it's sorta on topic. People talk about horses getting away with something if they can. To me, no matter what, they get away with nothing. No matter what they do they will have less than if running in a truly wild herd.

It's like we think they know they are supposed to be hard workers and have a really good work ethic. That's stuff people have.

I'm new, but anything and everything I receive from Hondo I consider a gift. If there's more I want to receive, I figger it's up to me to work out a way for him to give it to me. 

And that attitude has been working for me. He was a horse no one wanted and was likely to have been hanging on a meat hook somewhere.

Today I rode wing under a helicopter and at the corral worked right under the prop wash. Hondo was scared to death but stayed with me, and a bitless bridle which he loves.

Horses are not born to serve us but they do, and for the most part seemingly willingly.

Anything they can get away with they deserve, IMO.

End of rant. Thank you. Harold


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Hondo said:


> Anything they can get away with they deserve, IMO.


No.

My horse does not deserve to be re-united with his neighbor stalled next to him when I am attempting to lead him back into his stall and he tries to RUN me over.

Absolutely backwards, my friend.

Horses see opportunity, they have their own reasons for wanting to be somewhere, do something, etc.

They most certainly do not deserve things they get away with. If I were any less of a horsewoman (and not saying I'm the best or whatever) then I'd probably be in the hospital right now, all because my jughead is impatient despite multiple corrections, working with him thoroughly, and reinforcing GOOD behavior.

I know you and your horse are on good terms, and that's fine.. but you are not the spokesperson for all horses and their owners. 

In every other situation, my horse respects me. But god forbid one of his mares nickers at him, he loses his mind. And I'm right there correcting him.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Skyseternalangel said:


> No.


I'm not a fan of NH but there is one Parelli-Ism that I really do like.

A HORSE DOES NOT CARE HOW MUCH YOU KNOW UNTIL HE KNOWS HOW MUCH YOU CARE

Some say a horse knows more about us than we know about ourselves. Can't argue one way or the other on that, but I do think they readily and at once know how much and if we really do care.

And to repeat, I do not believe Hondo was placed on this earth to specifically serve me at my command. I don't believe it, I don't feel it.

But that's me. YMMV


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Ehn, I think a part of our miscommunication here is coming from how we define lazy and poor work ethic.

To me, all the things you are talking about; refusing forward, balking, sulling up, etc are 100% a reaction to a man-made situation either caused by pain (poorly fitting saddle, pinchy bit, etc) or just downright bad training.

Whereas a horse that is lazy will do what you ask, but is slow about it and will react...but that reaction may be delayed; the entire situation getting worse if it is not corrected or reprimanded. It can LEAD to sulling up, but that's a training thing, the lazy is in their nature.

I consider a horse with a poor work ethic to be a horse that just doesn't have much heart and are prone to quit on you. They'll usually what you ask, but never give even an ounce of extra effort beyond what you ask. Again, they can be forced to sull or lock up through bad training.

My red horse is lazy but he has good work ethic. He'll give all of himself to do what I ask and make me happy, but I frequently have to get after him to remind him that I need a response NOW, not 5 strides from now LOL.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

To my understanding, a horse is not lazy by nature. No horse.

They conserve and meter their expended energy as will best insure their survival. When danger raises it's head, you won't see a single lazy horse in a herd. All very active, agile, and athletic.

They just don't have a reason to expend energy until they have a reason to expend energy. By danger or by training.

Sure, some are more active and hyper by nature but that doesn't leave the others as lazy.

Disclaimer: I should still be posting in the new to horses sub-forum :/


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Hondo,

I like how you try to see things from a broad perspective instead of narrowing everything down to a horse's attitude or training. I feel we can't even begin to say things are due to a horse's training until we absolutely know the horse is not having any pain. This is something I've been learning over many years and in so many cases I've been discovering there are sources of pain we don't even think of. 

You can train a horse for years and still find that the horse is rushing, lazy, has choppy gaits, etc. What I've found in so many "lazy" horses is that their feet hurt, their back hurts, or they are not getting good enough nutrition. A horse can be fat but not getting a diet balanced with the vitamins and minerals he needs. His teeth might be causing sores inside his cheeks, because honestly I know so many people that don't float their horses' teeth even every two years.

I had a mare that was lazy and didn't like to go out riding alone. I thought she was herd bound, and didn't like to work. What I eventually discovered was that her "sound" club hoof was bothering her and had bruising inside that eventually grew out with good trimming. She also had Cushing's disease which was undiagnosed, and once she was put on the medication she had a lot more energy. I discovered her saddle was pinching her shoulders, and she also wasn't getting enough calcium in her diet. 

From this link:
http://www.admani.com/horse/Equine Library/Horse Calcium and the performanve horse.htm
The importance of calcium to the performance horse includes normal functioning of metabolism, the conduction of impulses along the nerves to muscle, the contraction of leg and body muscles for exercise, the contraction of the heart muscle for pumping blood, the contraction of the diaphragm for breathing, the functioning of the GI muscle for digestion. Calcium also plays a vital role in maintaining strong and healthy bones, cartilage and joints for *peak performance* without injury/breakdown.

So now I have a little powerhouse of a horse, and she's more energetic now than she was when she was younger. I could go on and on, but in the past I've been guilty of putting everything down to either training or the horse's personality, and now I'm learning that health factors tend to be the most important when it comes to affecting a horse's attitude toward work. I've seen that horses I thought were very herd bound became confident about leaving the other horses once their pain issues were resolved. I believe that if a horse is in pain, he may feel it is dangerous to leave a herd because he is more likely to be killed by a predator if he is not feeling 100%.


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## enh817 (Jun 1, 2012)

smrobs said:


> Ehn, I think a part of our miscommunication here is coming from how we define lazy and poor work ethic.
> 
> To me, all the things you are talking about; refusing forward, balking, sulling up, etc are 100% a reaction to a man-made situation either caused by pain (poorly fitting saddle, pinchy bit, etc) or just downright bad training.
> 
> ...


I actually do agree with you. My initial responses were to the OP and their examples and wording. I was using the terms the OP (and many people) mistakenly used to put blame on a horse for their behavior, rather than realizing it's a training issue. Which is why I used all those terms in quotations. 



Me, personally, I would use the term work ethic, to describe a horse, in the same way you do. Though, I do consider that most horses really need to see a purpose in the work they're being asked to do, before they will pour their heart into it. So, I am more likely to describe a horse as having an exceptional work ethic and the rest as just typical horses 

It's hard to get away from the ideas of assigning human attributes to horses, as it's everywhere. In the past year or so, I've really been trying hard to get away from the tendency to assign human motives to horse behavior. 
Especially negative ones, as I really think it hinders my progress as a trainer. 

Because of that, I'm hesitant to call a horse lazy, even though I agree with what you're getting at. In my opinion, lazy is one of the worst things a person can be. I think most all horses will readily exert energy, if they have enough motivation to do so. It's the nature of being a prey animal. Some may just require more motivation than others. The type of horses you'd call lazy, I'd refer to as more difficult to motivate. 

It's all semantics, but I have really seen a big change in how I approach training, since I've started trying to steer away from blaming the horse or his personality for the problems I have when training them. Instead, looking at myself and what I can change to improve my abilities to work with all types of horse personalities.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Hondo said:


> They conserve and meter their expended energy as will best insure their survival. When danger raises it's head, you won't see a single lazy horse in a herd. All very active, agile, and athletic.


Sorry, but I don't think my draft cross would qualify as "active," "agile," or "athletic" in ANY circumstance. :lol: 

My friend who I used to board with that had a high-energy Arab gelding and I were having some fun one day with my gelding, her gelding, and our trainer friend's Arab gelding. We had them in the "big" turnout (about a half an acre) and were "chasing" them around to get them to run. The amount of pressure it took to get the two Arabs to turn tail and run versus the amount of pressure it took my draft cross to get up and go was amazing. The Arabs were gone at the first hint of a stomp in their direction. With Aires, it took a stomp, arms thrown in the air and a "ssssss" (hissing sound) to get him to even consider going anywhere, even after the Arabs had gotten him riled up. All things being equal (they were all similar heights, with Aires being about 15.2hh, the trainer's gelding being 15.2hh and my friend's gelding being 16hh), try as he might, Aires just didn't have the athleticism or agility to keep up with the hotter, lighter Arabs. They were doing rollbacks, slide stops, spins, all sorts of athletic moves. He was lucky if he got from point A to point B a few strides after they did, just travelling in a straight line. He was 2.5-years-old at the time and had only been under saddle maybe six months with as many rides on him.

So no, I don't agree that all horses are created equal when it comes to athleticism and agility. Aires is like smrobs' Rafe. He'll do what you ask, it just might take him a minute. It's not a training issue, as he responds to the first, lightest cue, but his attitude when responding is "Okay, if I have to."


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> There is also the fact, Hondo, while those human athletes finished in the allowable time, they were far off from winning times of horses for Tevis cup


Ok, since this is mostly about me challenging your contention that "no man" could keep up with YOU on your trail horse in the mountains.

And I agree that it would not be fair to pit the fastest human athlete against you.

So how about this. I spectated the Western States Endurance Run one year. The finish line is or was at the football field in Auburn, CA.

I watched a 62 year old man cross the finish line in under 30 hours. No silver buckle for under 24 but it did get him a bronze.

Would it be fair for you to compete against this old guy and do you think you could cross the finish line with him?


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