# Champagne



## Carlajohnson (Mar 19, 2019)

We have a mare TWH that is listed classic champagne on her papers. I am wondering if this is correct? She looks more like an amber champagne to me. We are considering breeding her to a palomino stallion and I am curious as to what colors are possible. The mare's mom was black, sire was palomino. The palomino stallion we would like to breed her with had a chestnut sire and palomino mother. Thanks! Pictures are included of our mare.


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## Filou (Jan 16, 2014)

With a black sire and a palomino mother you couldn't get a champagne gene. One of the parents would need to have champagne to pass it down. Most likely the palomino mare was the one carrying champagne. 

With black and palomino base coats there's a possibility of classic or amber champagne, as well as the additional creme dilute. Since the mane is so dark I'm wondering if this horse is a carrier for a creme gene already as well, making her a classic creme champagne. That would be a black horse with a champagne and creme gene. 

When you start adding in the creme dilutes on top of the champagne they get lighter, and you could have a double creme champagne which would look like a cremello. 

If you breed her to the palomino stallion you have the possibility of getting the double creme champagne dilutes, or just a single creme dilute, but there would also be a possibility of getting no creme dilute as well. 

Breeding the two horses you are looking at has the possibility of producing many different combinations, especially if she is already a creme carrier.


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## Carlajohnson (Mar 19, 2019)

These are her papers if that helps. When our granddad got her mother (black) she was pregnant. The papers say the sire was a palomino, so you're saying he was actually champagne? Horse genetics are so interesting!


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

Unfortunately, registries often are incomplete or even outright wrong in terms of what color they register horses as. Gold champagne is often incorrectly registered as palomino, which seems likely in this case as your mare is clearly champagne and had to come from her sire if her dam was black. If you could see a copy of your mare's sire's papers, it may be noted he was both palomino and champagne, but those kinds of notes are often lost in progeny paperwork. A shame registries can't modernize to reflect changes in knowledge!


Testing her is the only way to know for sure if her base is bay or black, as there is a lot of phenotypic overlap, forget adding the champagne on top of it. Testing would help you narrow down the options for foal colors, though having the agouti of the stallion would also be helpful for the best prediction.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I think she look classic and not amber, but you can always test. Regardless without knowing the agouti status of the stallion (what makes black bay, and classic amber and hides on chestnut) we have to assume the possibility of it being there.

So you have black bay or chestnut as options, with or without champagne (50% chance), with or without cream (50% chance). It's possible to have both champagne and cream too, which will just lighten the horse even more. Lots of colors.

If you want to determine more accurately you'll want to figure out agouti (the test) if she's classic and doesn't have it and the stallion doesn't have it then the foal will only be black or chestnut based and the bay, and subsequent colors (buckskin for example- bay + cream) will be eliminated. You can also search the web, there's a great color calculator out there that will give you exact percentages based off genetics.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

I did some googling and found the ICHR website: http://www.ichregistry.com/colors.htm

She looks much more like the classic champagne example that they use. A bit lighter but shade variation is normal.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

I did some googling and found the ICHR website: http://www.ichregistry.com/colors.htm

She looks much more like the classic champagne example that they use. A bit lighter but shade variation is normal.


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## Carlajohnson (Mar 19, 2019)

So I just got her color testing back. Any thoughts? If I'm understanding correctly, she doesn't carry the cream gene and is homozygous recessive for agouti. So we should not get a double cream dilute foal. (Has a 50% chance of inheriting dad's cream and 50% chance of getting mom's champagne) What would the possibilities be now that this is narrowed down?


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## Filou (Jan 16, 2014)

So she is a classic champagne. 

Base coat aside- 
25% chance of creme and champ
25% chance of no creme and champ
25% chance of creme no champ
25% chance of no creme no champ

Do you have any info of the agouti for the stallion you bred her to?
If he is aa or Aa you could get chestnut base, bay base, or black. 
If he is AA you would be limited to only chestnut or bay base. 
Knowing if shes ChCh or chch would also change the options. 

I think, here are the possibilities by name- chestnut, bay, black, palomino, buckskin, smoky black, gold champagne, amber champagne, classic champagne, gold creme, amber creme, classic creme.


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## Carlajohnson (Mar 19, 2019)

Thanks for the info! I do not know the agouti status of the stallion, I will have to ask his owner if he knows. Our horse only inherited the champagne gene from one parent, because her mother was black. It's my understanding that they always show the champagne gene if they carry so she must not have had it. It came from her sire which was listed as palomino, but most likely gold champagne we are guessing.


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

Has the stallion been bred to black mares? If so, did he produce any bay or buckskin foals from those mares? If he did, you know he's got to have at least one dominant agouti.


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## Carlajohnson (Mar 19, 2019)

That's a good point. We don't own the stallion but I will ask the owner or see if he's tested him!


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## Carlajohnson (Mar 19, 2019)

I want to make sure I'm understanding this correctly. I didn't test her for Red, because I'm assuming she must be a carrier for Red. Our horse's mother was a black mare, but her grandparents on the mom's side were black and palomino. Being her sire was listed as palomino (we are assuming actually gold champagne, being she is a classic champage), she would have to carry at least one copy for Red gene correct?


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Yes if she is classic champagne and she got E from her black dam and e from the red sire then she is Ee.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Yup, your mare is Ee aa Chch (black with champagne). The stallion is ee agouti unknown Crcr.

So any combination, the foal could be black or red and even possibly bay. On top of that 50% chance of passing on cream and 50% champagne, so the foal could be solid, have one or the other or even possibly both, which I believe looks a lot like the classic double dilutes (cremello/perlino etc).


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