# Serious Issues. It's becoming dangerous.



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Yes, first, have him thoroughly checked over for pain by your vet. Once pain is ruled out, find the help of an experienced trainer. 

There are things that can be suggested but with him already exhibiting such dangerous behavior, I would hate to suggest some action that would get you hurt.


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## alexischristina (Jun 30, 2009)

I'd have him checked everywhere you can, if it's become so extreme- have the vet check him for pain, get his teeth floated, maybe get a chiropractor out to re-align everything, get lots of second opinions and get your saddle fit checked out and then turn to a professional trainer.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Check him out for pain or soundness issues, but I suspect he has gone downhill because a good trainer / rider has not kept him 'tuned up' and obedient.

Horses may be trained by a professional to a World Championship level. When an amateur or youth starts showing them, they start to go downhill -- gradually at first and go off the cliff shortly after that. That is what your situation sounds like.

Amateurs and youth exhibitors may be excellent riders, but most of them are not trainers. [A few are and just don;t want to become professional trainers and give up their amateur status by going public.] So, their horses gradually lose their sharpness and finally lose respect and may get dangerous when they found no meaningful consequences for the small infractions. That is where I think you are.

Most amateurs or youth exhibitors are well-served if they: 

1) leave their horse at a trainer's barn so the trainer can keep the horse sharp and work with the exhibitor; or 

2) Take the horse for a 30 day tune up a couple times a year or leave the horse there for a week before a big show.

Most trainers, like myself, think that most horses have just so many tune-up in them. Then, they get smart enough to learn what person is at the controls. At that point, the exhibitor either needs a new horse or needs to learn how to ride better and needs to learn how to keep a horse sharp.

If you want to try to 'salvage' this horse, you need to take it to the trainer that trained him in the beginning or find a comparable trainer and level with them and let them know exactly what this horse is doing. He may be able to come back or he may be too smart and will just run over you when you get him back. You will need to take a bunch of lessons on this horse if a trainer does get him back to good form. 

I have seen this happen so many times I cannot count them. People pay a lot of money to buy a well-trained horse and then expect them to just stay that way without a good professional hand getting on them from time to time. 

Horses just do not work that way. They will always go down to the level of the worst riding they are getting. Like I have said so many times here: 
*The poorest performance or behavior you allow is the best performance or behavior you have any right to expect. *


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## Sparkyintention (Jan 21, 2012)

My mom said she 100% agrees with your first sentence. 
"Horses may be trained by a professional to a World Championship level. When an amateur or youth starts showing them, they start to go downhill -- gradually at first and go off the cliff shortly after that. That is what your situation sounds like." 

She also agrees with this as well: "Amateurs and youth exhibitors may be excellent riders, but most of them are not trainers. [A few are and just don;t want to become professional trainers and give up their amateur status by going public.] So, their horses gradually lose their sharpness and finally lose respect and may get dangerous when they found no meaningful consequences for the small infractions. That is where I think you are."

As for me, I agree as well. Being in school still has taken away a lot of my time and since I no longer show him my ambition to keep up on his training. He's very smart, and that is the problem. It is a good and bad thing, right now it seems to be going in a downward spiral! He has always had problems with his back because he was dangerously malnourished before we bought him but hes on supplements for and personally I see improvement. 
I really don't want to say names to whose barn we left because in case someone knows her I wouldn't want to offend anyone but it was more about the, and I wasn't in a comfortable environment and neither was my horse. My lessons would be spent walking in a circle because she was on the phone, so there's wasted money and were paying her phone bill. Yay! Either way it's scary for me and I don't have the patience to deal with it.


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Sounds like you know what you meed to do then.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

I hope that you see, from Cherie's explanation, that it's rather unfair to the horse if you don't want to get your savvy up! It paints a sad picture: "oh, he's bagging out & getting dangerous again; time to ship him off to trainer for a tune-up". Your horse needs you to savvy up & be there for him, & if you don't have the interest, please let him go, to someone who does!


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Take him back to a trainer, this is past the point where it's safe for you to try to fix it.


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## Sparkyintention (Jan 21, 2012)

Northern said:


> I hope that you see, from Cherie's explanation, that it's rather unfair to the horse if you don't want to get your savvy up! It paints a sad picture: "oh, he's bagging out & getting dangerous again; time to ship him off to trainer for a tune-up". Your horse needs you to savvy up & be there for him, & if you don't have the interest, please let him go, to someone who does!



A sad picture? Okay, I take blame for him being like this, I haven't put my foot down, my fault completely. It's rather rude to insinuate that I'm neglecting my horse. I love him and he will be going no where. I cannot apologize for having a separate life that needs attending to as well. I understood Cherie's post, and that is not what it meant. That horse is 17 years old and happy being a complete goofball to me when hes under control or else I wouldn't have bought him. It's like a child/mother relationship. The child may be bad and act up but its the mothers job to realize its a mistake that needs to be fixed.

So yes, he's going to a trainer. ASAP. It's just very hard with me in school etc. Is there any natural remedies I can give him to calm him down? He lets me handle him I just can't ride, lead out of the pasture or lunge him.


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## cowgirlup07 (Mar 13, 2008)

Northern said:


> I hope that you see, from Cherie's explanation, that it's rather unfair to the horse if you don't want to get your savvy up! It paints a sad picture: "oh, he's bagging out & getting dangerous again; time to ship him off to trainer for a tune-up". Your horse needs you to savvy up & be there for him, & if you don't have the interest, please let him go, to someone who does!


this is very rude. I was in school once with horses and yes mine went downhill too in riding, does this mean I also was neglecting my horses??? (BTW at that time I ran a rescue and also trained outside horses to pay for the rescues feed hay etc.) when you are limited for time its very hard to keep up with everyone and everything every single day. There were a couple of my personal horses I was riding every day and they even slacked until breaks off school. 

This is not like one horse I trained, a paint gelding 4-6 years old according to the owner 3-4 according to his teeth. I spent 1/2 the time feeding him up because he was thin then started training, the owner knew. At the 30 day mark he came to ride his horse, the horse did great for me and then continued so for his owner. Keep in mind I had told this man that the horse bucked so hard his rear came up and over ON TOP OF ME 2 days before, he said "oh he's fine, you've done a wonderful job!" I recommended another 30 days but he said no and took his horse home, left him sitting for nearly 30 more days got on him and got thrown. He shot the horse on the spot because his own stupidity. This would be the kind of thing to be rude to the owner about NOT being in school and the horse slacking due to it. After reading what is going on, this was not done purposely and the horses owner IS trying to fix it and CARES enough about the animal to go about things CORRECTLY. Ok I think I'm done with my rant now. 

Sparkyintention: Your doing the right thing by agreeing and sending him to a trainer, it will save on hospital and vet bills as both of you are in danger. It may not mean much coming from a stranger, but, I'm proud of you for doing the right thing for your horse!


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## Sparkyintention (Jan 21, 2012)

Thank you for seeing that post as I did! I obviously care about our safety as I'm on here talking to professionals. I love Red to pieces and I'm in a bad spot right now so he is in a bad spot right now and I've let him go because of the time I have. 
You know I love him when I spend more time with him than my boyfriend! lol  

I really just wanted some personal perspectives on it because something so obvious could be wrong and it just slipped my mind!


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

as rude as it maybe perceived, northern is right. for this reason:


Cherie said:


> *The poorest performance or behavior you allow is the best performance or behavior you have any right to expect. *


regardless of whether or not (or how many times) you send him to trainers.


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## cowgirlup07 (Mar 13, 2008)

very understandable and no problem. I've came here and to a couple other sites too looking for help. I'm the same way with my horse, Chief, as you are with Red. I spend way more time with Chief than my boyfriend too, lol. To me your keeping yourself and Red on a good path, without an education nobody can ever improve ya know?


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## cowgirlup07 (Mar 13, 2008)

christopher said:


> as rude as it maybe perceived, northern is right. for this reason:regardless of whether or not (or how many times) you send him to trainers.


Christopher: in a way yes your right but in others no your really not. Northern was very rude and disrespectful. What you have quoted is true BUT at least she's doing right by her horse by seeking professional help which is more than most people do in this day and age. 

If you can't see it from both sides, at least attempt to even if you've not been in this situation because if you've not been there, you don't know how hard it is. All I'm saying is try to understand and help rather than criticise. Its better for everyone to try and be understanding to others points of view.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

OP-Good on you for recognizing this and doing the right thing. I totally agree with Cherie, and remember well that when I was still in school my horse went to be tuned up every spring. It was hard, and I missed him, but he came back like a new horse, and after all he was gone when I was busy with school, etc....so it works well this time of year. I also hate the cold, so riding in the winter was never my favorite. Only thing I would not totally agree with-would be that the horse only has so many tune ups. That may be true sometimes, but I think that many riders are also constantly improving and maturing so they are better able to make sure the horse "tows the line". Send the horse now, then when spring comes and prime ride time, you both will be ready!:wink:

Northern and Christopher-just an observation here. THis is MY opinion and observation (perception, if you will) and only mine, and I will say this in the nicest way possible. I find it interesting that the people who I perceive to be champions for NH/PP on this forum can be amongst the most rude to the HUMANS here. Just food for thought. YOu might be great in bonding with your horses, but perhaps social skills have suffered.


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## cowgirlup07 (Mar 13, 2008)

franknbeans said:


> OP-Good on you for recognizing this and doing the right thing. I totally agree with Cherie, and remember well that when I was still in school my horse went to be tuned up every spring. It was hard, and I missed him, but he came back like a new horse, and after all he was gone when I was busy with school, etc....so it works well this time of year. I also hate the cold, so riding in the winter was never my favorite. Only thing I would not totally agree with-would be that the horse only has so many tune ups. That may be true sometimes, but I think that many riders are also constantly improving and maturing so they are better able to make sure the horse "tows the line". Send the horse now, then when spring comes and prime ride time, you both will be ready!:wink:
> 
> Northern and Christopher-just an observation here. THis is MY opinion and observation (perception, if you will) and only mine, and I will say this in the nicest way possible. I find it interesting that the people who I perceive to be champions for NH/PP on this forum can be amongst the most rude to the HUMANS here. Just food for thought. YOu might be great in bonding with your horses, but perhaps social skills have suffered.


you are so right franknbeans! You said it way nicer than I did, lol.


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## SunshineHorse26 (Jan 29, 2012)

how old is your horse? many, manyy, many time before i have seen horses trained at too young an age. Usually a few years later the horse will decide 'its had enough' and turn sour. I would do some serious free lunging, keep him away from you, and always make sure he's going in the direction you want him to go. This will teach him to listen to you, and respect you. Then work with the halter, approach him at the should and just pet him, rub the halter on him, take it on and off again and again until her relaxes and realizes the halter doesnt mean 'work'. It sounds like he just thinks anything involving people means work. Play some games with him, play with balls and tarps, do something different everyday to keep it interesting, and always end on a good note. Do NOT expect anything from him and praise the simplest accomplishements. Eventually, he will soften up and you should be able to start riding again. When you do begin riding, avoid anything that makes him frusturated, but dont hesitate to GENTLY remind him of manners. This is NOT the kinda situation where you can just show him who's boss, it would only create a worse relationship. Keep riding sessions simple and relaxing, and praise everything he does! 
Hope this helps!!

Edit: I really do not think sending him to the trainers will help. He may be well behaved when he comes back, but I do think he'll eventually just fall into his old habits again. This is your horse, you need to try and fix the problem and have a relationship, not the trainer. I know it's frusturating, but with time and effort i'm sure he'll be fine in a few months or so.


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## OwnedByAlli (Nov 8, 2011)

Getting him to a trainer you can work with is what I'd recomend. The trainer should be able to get the horse doing what they want, then teach you how to get this good behaivoir as well. Theres no point in the horse learning to respect the trainer's wishes and then still thinking the can do whatever the hell he want with everyone else. Also, you'd be amazed at how much you can pick up just from watching an experienced horseperson- how they hold them selves around horses, how they handle them, how they approach different tasks etc. 

Make sure you find a trainer who is willing to work with you as well as your horse, and make sure they use methods you agree with and understand. Bear in mind a good horseperson can react on impulse and instinct to anything a horse does, and get it right nearly all the time. They don't have to think their reaction through because often the moment for correction/reprimand/appropriate action is gone when the handler needs to think about how to deal with the situation.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

SunshineHorse26 said:


> h*ow old is your horse?* many, manyy, many time before i have seen horses trained at too young an age. Usually a few years later the horse will decide 'its had enough' and turn sour. I would do some serious free lunging, keep him away from you, and always make sure he's going in the direction you want him to go. This will teach him to listen to you, and respect you. Then work with the halter, approach him at the should and just pet him, rub the halter on him, take it on and off again and again until her relaxes and realizes the halter doesnt mean 'work'. It sounds like he just thinks anything involving people means work. Play some games with him, play with balls and tarps, do something different everyday to keep it interesting, and always end on a good note. Do NOT expect anything from him and praise the simplest accomplishements. Eventually, he will soften up and you should be able to start riding again. When you do begin riding, avoid anything that makes him frusturated, but dont hesitate to GENTLY remind him of manners. This is NOT the kinda situation where you can just show him who's boss, it would only create a worse relationship. Keep riding sessions simple and relaxing, and praise everything he does!
> Hope this helps!!
> 
> Edit: I really do not think sending him to the trainers will help. He may be well behaved when he comes back, but I do think he'll eventually just fall into his old habits again. This is your horse, you need to try and fix the problem and have a relationship, not the trainer. I know it's frusturating, but with time and effort i'm sure he'll be fine in a few months or so.


She said the horse is 17 yrs old. She has also stated that she has been busy with life, as happens with all of us from time to time. THe trainer can devote the time needed to correct the horse, and, it sounds like she will work with the trainer a bit also, so she will learn how to better handle the horse. It sounds like she is a minor, and I would not recommend that a minor try and deal with a dangerous horse. SHe can build her relationship once the horse is safe again. 

You nor I know this horse so we cannot say whether "showing the horse whose boss" will escalate the issue or not. It could well be that this horse needs a good old fashioned reminder of his job BY A PROFESSIONAL, not a minor. At this point the horse is scaring her, and nothing will be accomplished. 

I am appalled that you would recommend a minor put herself in a dangerous situation.:evil:


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

OK! I will give my take on some of the answers after mine:

I have to totally disagree with Sunshine here. I have known so many reiners and cutters that were shown in the 3 year old futurities and were still happily showing at a high level 20 years later. Training a horse at a young age has no lasting problems as long as the horse stays sound. 'Sourness' comes from poor riding habits and skills or poor ground handling. Doing things like letting a horse hurry out of an arena, riding straight back to a stall or trailer after showing, letting a horse take 'voice' ques from an announcer, and on and on and on. These poor riding habits will make any horse show-ring sour. Poor ground handling will make a horse ill-tempered and aggressive. These are horses with people problems -- not people with horse problems.

I do not know how long it has been since this horse has had GOOD professional training. I don't know if the trainer he was purchased from was his original trainer. I do not know if this owner ever showed him at the level he was once trained for or if she is capable of showing him at that level.

I do know that it is unfair to blame her for letting things happen if she does not know the difference. She knows now. But, I am only trying to explain horse behavior to her. I am trying to explain how and why horses go downhill. 

Back to horse behavior:

Horses can go a long time without being ridden and their performance will not deteriorate much if they are not getting ridden poorly. I have brought broodmares back into performance ready, high level showing when they had not been ridden in as long as 10 years. BUT, they were not ridden poorly during that time -- they were raising babies. They took conditioning, legging up and only a few weeks of riding before they were ready to show.

A lot of horses get pretty lack-luster in their performance and a 30 or 60 days turn-out helps them. They come back fresh and working better than ever.

There is also a huge difference between a horse going downhill in its under saddle performance and getting ill-mannered and aggressive. These are two different things entirely and need to be addressed differently. 

This horse owner needs to be taught what good manners are and how to establish them in her now, ill-mannered horse. Whether one is dealing with a yearling or an old show horse, there are just rules that every horse owner has to know about horse behavior to establish and keep good manners. 

This horse owner came here for help -- not to be eaten alive. I think she knows she has a problem. Now, she wants to know what to do with it. 

I think she should take this horse to a GOOD trainer and then needs to spend time with the trainer to learn how to effectively interact with this horse. How to set boundaries and how to make him respect those boundaries. 

She does not need to play games with him and she does not need to do endless groundwork. One or two training sessions of 'effective' groundwork should put the respect he knows back in force. One or two days of 'bitting up' and long-lining should get him to a point where he can be safely ridden. Then, after he has a trainer camping on him under saddle for 1-2 hours a day she should have a different horse in 30 days and a pretty solid one in 60. 

Back to the 'tune-up' part of this. Really smart horses will go down-hill the fastest. They are better at figuring our how skilled their handlers / riders are. Horses that have gotten really bad in both performance and manners go back to poor behavior the quickest if their owners do not learn with the horses. Some horse are more forgiving than others. Some horses 'jump' on every opportunity they are given to do the wrong thing. Others are more 'honest' and put up with a lot of mis-handling before their performance or manners deteriorate. 

When I help a novice buy a horse to show, I look for 'honesty' before I look for anything else. Some horses are 'high maintenance' and HAVE to live at a trainer's house to stay solid. Others are so forgiving that people can keep them home and show them all season before you start to see them perform at a lower level. Then, a 30 day tune-up can get them back into good form. These horses tune up time after time -- especially if their owner works at learning what it take to keep a horse solid.

So, there are many variables in every situation. They are all different. One thing stays the same;

*The poorest performance or behavior you allow is the best performance or behavior you have any right to expect. You have to be 100% consistent!*


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## Sparkyintention (Jan 21, 2012)

Yes, I am a minor. I will be 16 on Tuesday and a Sophomore in high school. Red has been through alot, but being so he was a very well behaved horse up until this last year. Hes been moved through 5+ different homes, through various states, and I'd say it's been a good 4 years since hes had professional training to whip his booty into shape. He's not a small horse, and I don't really feel comfortable being around him at all. When we bought him we were told he was for beginners which was NOT true, I'd say more intermediate than anything. He is my first horse and in 2 years I'm leaving for California for CU of LA in hopes of a music degree. The problem I'm finding myself at right now is we're both between two rocks, and the more he gets frustrated the more I get frustrated. The trainers around here are mainly for english pleasure, XC, Jumping, or western pleasure. I don't want to pay a trainer to make him look pretty or make something worse, I need someone good who will make him mind and I'm accelerating towards the option of shipping him out of state to get trained. Then, find a hands on trainer here to help me solve these problems. 

I do however find it a little upsetting that some people are saying it's my fault. I need to savvy up but the horse can be a total a-hole to me? Not happening. I love Red but he also needs to respect me. I take blame for whats happened because it's really not my fault but I have never met a single horse owner/trainer/shower who hasn't made a mistake that had needed anothers opinion or professional help in my case to fix. Now that I have said it in words, and everyone can read it, I think I can stop ranting now. 

Thank you Cherie! I'm understanding MUCH better now. I guess I never really thought of things like this before, he has just gotten soooo out of control! 

I'm considering making a short video to post on here so you all can get a glimpse of what he does at times! It's hard to explain and visualize unless everyone has seen a horse like this


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

I'm truly sorry if you perceived my post as disrespectful/rude; if you'd been talking with me face to face, you'd've seen that I was neither. Perhaps it'd help if you reread my short post while imagining my saying its words with a spirit of helpfulness, & you'll see that one can imagine that easily. 

I'll add that your calling your horse an a-hole shows a lack of understanding of your horse. Horses are not bad, ever; they're just horses. If you'd quit judging the horse as being an a-hole, he'd get better, because you got better.

Was that rude/disrespectful of me to say? NOPE! Discernment is needed between rude/disrespectful & to-the-point, with the intention of helping the human & the horse.

Intention is everything, & you misread mine. Good Luck!


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I am glad I have helped you understand horse behavior better. Knowing what makes a horse tick -- knowing how they react and respond and knowing how to elicit good behavior from them is so very important if one is going to have a fun, safe and successful relationship with them.

At this time, I would not recommend spending a lot of time with this horse on the ground or in the saddle. I think you are inviting poor manners in the way you interact with this horse. I think you are in over your head with him and I would not want to see you get hurt by him. 

I think he is a horse with a very dominant nature and he knows how to make you move. You would need to learn how to make HIM move without being mean or aggressive. You need to learn' effective horse handling' and discipline. I do not think you are there yet and more interaction with this horse will further destroy what confidence you have. You need to practice with an agreeable horse that is not going to intimidate you farther.

There is an old saying -- don't even know who first said it -- *" He who moves his feet first, loses!"*

This is ever so true. This means that when you step up to any horse and 'smooch' or in some other way ask him to step back or move out of your way, the horse should instantly step back and away from you. If you ask a horse to step over to the right using only body language and a smooch, he should instantly step over to the right -- 1 step or 10 steps -- however many you ask him to make. If you want a horse to acknowledge that you are the Supreme Leader, he should step backward however far you keep asking him to back up. 

Confidence comes from knowing that you are in control. This does not change whether you are handling one on the ground or in the saddle. It is pretty difficult to learn how to be in charge of one that is dominant and really needs a very experienced person to teach basic manners. A horse like this one needs someone that is confident and skilled and can make him quickly see that he must 'toe the mark'. 

I hope you are able to find a trainer that is a 'fit' for both him and you. Just be sure you get a trainer that will not mind you sitting around and watching some of his training sessions and will help you learn how to handle and ride him before you take him home. Good Luck, Cherie


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## Sparkyintention (Jan 21, 2012)

Northern you are straight.up getting on my nerves. We dropped it and as soon as i stated how.i felt about the statement you threw another two cents in the pot to antagonize a fight. Its not me or anyone else who has misunderstood but YOU. Look around, all youre doing is stirring the pot.

Also, a call out to Cherie and everyone else! Thank.you guys for the helo! Please feel free to post anything else that.would be helpful!


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

northern is simply telling it like it is. this situation would benefit more from you learning how to deal with issues rather than your horse's issues being dealt with by a 3rd party.


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

I'm totally with Northern here and I see no rudeness in his advice. 
Good luck with your horse, though.


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## Lifeofriley (May 24, 2009)

I'm with everyone who has recommended a trainer - I think you'd be surprised how many english trainers can make a horse 'mind'. Not all english horses are pretty little things that never put a toe out of line 

I think asking a minor to put themselves in a dangerous situation in order to 'learn to deal with the issue' is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. It's a wild animal about 10 times your weight you are dealing with, you DO NOT want to mess around. Nobody that matters will look down on you for doing the safe and sensible and getting help with something that's beyond your skillset. 

A good trainer will work with you and your horse as a team. Maybe go around to some of the barns/trainers in your area and talk to them, watch a lesson or two if you can - you might be surprised at how some of them interact with horses and find one you'd like to send your boy to.

Good luck - and don't let it get you down. I've had some rank horses in my time! I fixed the last one myself but the first one - professional help and I'm still in one piece and don't have a $40 lunge whip gathering dust in my shed!


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## Sparkyintention (Jan 21, 2012)

And Christoper, im simply telling it like it is, k? Cherie and the other forum members have it under control if you have nothing helpful or anything relevant to post than dont even open up the thread. My best advice of the day 

Lifeofriley- I'm not saying all english trainers around here are like that just most of them train for congress year round and if your horse is bad enough (mine) most likely they wont take them. Has anyone heard of Janet Youse? She taught me how to jump and fixed alot of my errors on her horse so I could come home and do them on my horse, so I'm thinking of getting in touch with her, because she has a 0 tolerance policy


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

christopher said:


> northern is simply telling it like it is. this situation would benefit more from you learning how to deal with issues rather than your horse's issues being dealt with by a 3rd party.


This is NOT the best thing in every circumstance. For example, if a horse has gotten to the point where they can intimidate the owner. Sorry, I still think you and Northern need to "tell it" elsewhere THIS IS A MINOR. SHE IS 16! Her safety is first and foremost. Sent the horse to be trained and after the horse is safe again-she can learn from the trainer how to avoid this situation again.
Just because you don't know when you need to ask for help (which I suspect in your mind would be never) doesn't mean the rest of us want to be so foolish.:evil:


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Thank You Franknbeans,

You absolutely do not want to send a fearful minor in to do things they don't know how to do with a horse that already has them intimidated.

You could be standing there in person (not on the internet or on DVDs) and can bark orders at someone that is intimidated or just plain scared of a horse and they are going to get hurt at worst or going to be backing up away from the horse at best. It will not be a positive experience for either one of them.

I have spent a lifetime working with youth and novice owners. They HAVE to either have a lot of confidence and assertiveness (this girl does not have either) or they have to learn on a well-mannered horse and then work with their own horse after a trainer has established good manners.

I used to work with the problem horse at the same time they worked the same routines with one of my 'broke' horses. They could see what it takes to get a horse under complete control and they can learn how to correctly do the maneuvers on the ground that keep a horse in line.

Asking a timid or fearful person to take on an aggressive horse and come out on top is just plain stupid.


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## Annnie31 (May 26, 2011)

Agree with Cherie...find a trainer and send him out for a tune up, its a must since you should never put yourself in harms way...then with Northern...after he is tuned up, go to the trainer, and learn what you need to know about him to prevent regression...it is very important to address both issues, safely. Best of luck with him.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

I "liked" Cherie's first post, & posted after it suggesting that you heed it, so how things got twisted to appear that I'm against Cherie's advice (at least in the main) on her detailed first post is beyond me. I also didn't echo her further advice about YOUR getting help from a teacher because I figured that the echo wasn't necessary. LOL! 

I guess an echo is needed:

I'm concerned about your being apparently unsupervised, as a 16-yr-old, with the horse going rank! My thought was, "where are her parents? where is a qualified mentor for her?" I'm not only concerned, but annoyed that no adult has been there for you in this situation, & am not annoyed with you, because you're 16 & don't have the wisdom that folks are supposed to have as adults.

So, I am for your safety & I am for the horse's wellbeing. I _am_ for your savvy improvement so the sending him to the trainer, then bag out & re-send is not his life. As Cherie explained so nicely in her first post, that pattern is bad for the horse. I am for your stepping back & building your savvy with an easier horse, (echo, echo), but something positive must be happening with your big guy in the meantime!

Again, Good Luck!


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Northern said:


> I "liked" Cherie's first post, & posted after it suggesting that you heed it, so how things got twisted to appear that I'm against Cherie's advice (at least in the main) on her detailed first post is beyond me. I also didn't echo her further advice about YOUR getting help from a teacher because I figured that the echo wasn't necessary. LOL!
> 
> I guess an echo is needed:
> 
> ...


OMG Northern. Quit "echoing." Seriously. As for "where are her parents?" In this case I find that question a bit..umm...ridiculous. I can that from experience. When I was the age of the OP my mom was ALWAYS at the barn with me-semi attached to my side, but she was worse than useless. She hated it, had no horse knowledge and was, in short, no help. It could very well be, in the case of the OP, that her parents are non-horsey people. That does not mean they don't care, nor that they should be standing there like a pillar collecting dust while she rides around, worrying ever time the horse farts. THis OP seems really very sensible to me, much more so than many here her age. Kudos to her for asking for help, unlike many her age who think they are infallible.

Things got so "twisted" because you (and christopher)seem to think that her getting her "savvy" up will make it all better. First, that word has WAY too many PP connotations, and turns me, and I think many others off instantly. she needs good horse knowledge. Not PP's brand of "savvy". SO over NH people-really I am, and I DO IT!:evil: It is the people who turn me off. JMHO.


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## Sparkyintention (Jan 21, 2012)

Northern.. Don't take this the wrong way but you have no clue what you're talking about. My mom loves my horse as much as I do, she supports me through it all and it was her idea to ask for advice. She has seen me be bucked off a green broke 17.2 thoroughbred, come off of Red over a three foot jump, be trampled and drug. She has seen it all. I'm not on this forum asking for sympathy because " hes trying to kill me" He is just a sassy horse who needs to be redirected. I'm doing the right thing, and my parents are by my side thank you very much. I have had adults with me through the process of buying him up till my show season and through now. An adult has 95% of the time has been present. Like I stated before, I have a life. Not every moment can be devoted to spending my time on a forum telling people what I think I know and what I think it right. My apologizes.views, I think they're right. Sorry  This is a problem that has to be fixed so quit wasting time being annoyed and if you really truly have something useful to say that say it. If not, quit posting and liking every comment that has to agree and deal with you. Talk about annoying.


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

Sparkyintention said:


> A sad picture? Okay, I take blame for him being like this, I haven't put my foot down, my fault completely. It's rather rude to insinuate that I'm neglecting my horse. I love him and he will be going no where. I cannot apologize for having a separate life that needs attending to as well. I understood Cherie's post, and that is not what it meant. That horse is 17 years old and happy being a complete goofball to me when hes under control or else I wouldn't have bought him. It's like a child/mother relationship. The child may be bad and act up but its the mothers job to realize its a mistake that needs to be fixed.
> 
> So yes, he's going to a trainer. ASAP. It's just very hard with me in school etc. Is there any natural remedies I can give him to calm him down? He lets me handle him I just can't ride, lead out of the pasture or lunge him.


Sending him to a trainer is not going to fix him long term...that is what Northern is saying, although it may have come across as somewhat rude. 

When he comes back, and is well behaved again, are you going to be prepared to continue to work with him, and keep him well behaved? If not, then be prepared for the behavior to return, and it may come back more quickly, and it may be more 'caustic' from the start...meaning he may be more dangerous. Not being able to ride, lead, or handle a horse is not very fun is it? I mean, that is why we HAVE horses isn't it? That's the point in owning a horse? And yet, you say you can't even handle yours? It's time to decide to get him retrained, and be prepared to actually keep UP on the training so he STAYS a happy relaxed and well behaved non dangerous companion.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

I don't believe for a second that you or anyone else is missing that my intention was to be helpful to you & your horse! "Quit wasting time being annoyed...if you have something useful to say, say it..." wow. Glad that your parents taught you to talk down to adults who don't deserve it, what to speak to be totally ungrateful to those who take the time to try to help you. 

I'm not in this world to avoid saying "savvy", F&B, because you don't like the word. lol!

*Thank you, Mom2Pride*! Jimminy Xmas, that's all that I said! (Don't mods have a "like" button?)


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

mom2pride said:


> Sending him to a trainer is not going to fix him long term...that is what Northern is saying, although it may have come across as somewhat rude.
> 
> When he comes back, and is well behaved again, are you going to be prepared to continue to work with him, and keep him well behaved? If not, then be prepared for the behavior to return, and it may come back more quickly, and it may be more 'caustic' from the start...meaning he may be more dangerous. Not being able to ride, lead, or handle a horse is not very fun is it? I mean, that is why we HAVE horses isn't it? That's the point in owning a horse? And yet, you say you can't even handle yours? It's time to decide to get him retrained, and be prepared to actually keep UP on the training so he STAYS a happy relaxed and well behaved non dangerous companion.


YOu are almost as rude as Northern! WOW. OP is 16. Life happens to all of us, like it or not. We all have differential priorities and they shift. Sometimes our horses are number one, sometimes, because of other obligations, they slip down the list a bit. OP has said she will get him retrained. She says she understands she will need to step it up when he returns.

Sounds to me like you think she should sell-that is what it sounds like from all of your "why we have horses" crap. 

I am truly surprised at your behavior for a mod.:-(


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Methinks some here confuddle "rudeness" with hearing what one doesn't want to hear.

I wasn't rude. christopher wasn't rude. Mom2Pride wasn't rude.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

mom2pride pointed out that there are dysfunctions in this relationship (re-la-tion-ship: the way in which two or more concepts, objects, or people are connected, or the state of being connected.) and implied (correct me if i'm wrong mom2pride) that although a trainer might stop the behaviour, the dysfunctions that led to the behaviour will remain, and thus the behaviour will probably return. and as the horse begins to differentiate between the trainer and the OP, the behaviour will escalate.

to combat this, northern suggested the OP get her savvy (sav-vy: noun: shrewdness and practical knowledge, esp. in politics or business. verb: know or understand. adjective: shrewd and knowledgeable in the realities of life.) up. which is entirely sound advice and deserved more credit then it got.

don't let your PP connonations cloud your judgement, and don't confuse objectivity for rudeness.


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## cowgirlup07 (Mar 13, 2008)

dude, seriously? Quoting definitions?? GET OVER YOURSELVES! This girl is 16 and in school! She has homework, classes, etc. She knows what she needs to do and is willing to do it so back off of her, ok? As for talking down to adults, she needs to stand up for herself EVEN TO ADULTS! Especially ones who are rude and inconsiderate to her, her horse and her feelings! OMG just lay off! And no this is not directed just at Christopher this IS directed at the following: Christopher, northern, and mom2pride. Oh and whoever else decides to be so inconsiderate to this poor girl also. If you don't have anything nice to say don't say it at all PLUS read the entire post and the replies before responding, it helps to know what's already been covered.


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## cowgirlup07 (Mar 13, 2008)

oh btw if anyone has a problem with my above post..... Discuss it with me. Try picking on someone your own size guys.


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

franknbeans said:


> YOu are almost as rude as Northern! WOW. OP is 16. Life happens to all of us, like it or not. We all have differential priorities and they shift. Sometimes our horses are number one, sometimes, because of other obligations, they slip down the list a bit. OP has said she will get him retrained. She says she understands she will need to step it up when he returns.
> 
> Sounds to me like you think she should sell-that is what it sounds like from all of your "why we have horses" crap.
> 
> I am truly surprised at your behavior for a mod.:-(


She came here asking for help for a dangerous horse. It's a public forum, so she was going to get varying opinions...when dealing with dangerous horses, I am straight to the point, period; doesn't matter the age...a person needs to know the implications of what the behaviors the animal could cause if not dealt with. 

I never said she needs to sell him, I only said the obvious of what 'could happen' if what happened at the trainer's didn't continue at home, in that the behaviors could return more quickly and be more dangerous. Is it not fair to prepare someone, regardless of age, what could happen, when an 1100 lb animal is involved? Especially when they came looking for help? As far as the meaning of "why we have horses"; the reason I have them is to enjoy them...it sounds like this owner can't enjoy hers, so she needs to figure out a way TO begin enjoying him again, plain and simple. There was nothing in there that said "Sell your horse"...just me telling her to figure things out, so she can enjoy her horse like she used to, before he started copping the attitude. 

I am sorry OP if I came across as harsh...that was not my intent, but I do wish you luck with your horse.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Please don't get hung up on words and whether one person likes one or the other. The general ideas were sound. And telling the young lady that she might need to consider selling, is expressing an opinion, maybe not a popular one, but is not being rude.

She may have a life other than this horse. There's no crime in that, but if THIS horse needs more than she can dedicate, then selling him is not an outrageous idea.


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## Eolith (Sep 30, 2007)

The biggest question is... what's your ultimate goal? Do you want to ride more? Do you see yourself taking him with you to college?

If the answer to either of those questions is 'no' or even a 'maybe'... it very well may be nearing the time for you and this horse to part ways. Once he gets tuned up, you may be able to find him another home where he'll be ridden and/or shown more. To be clear, I'm not advising that you sell because you're a bad owner or he's a crazy horse or anything else. It's just a question of what you want from him, and what you want for yourself.


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

I really have the feeling that someone is overreacting here. When posting in public, we ARE going to get opinions that might not go well with our thoughts, but that's why it is called "public discussion" and I don't see that it is wise to start a war about it. 
Those opinions may be blunt, honest, unpleasant, hard to accept, but, jeez, those are only opinions. Nobody is trying to pressure anyone in living by these opinons - after all, we are going to get hurt only by our own mistakes, not those of others.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Excuse me people --- Does anyone here recognize the difference between a well trained finished show horse going South (and taking several years to do so) and the usual aggressive never-trained rogues that people usually come to the boards with?

I have taken on several of each kinds -- probably more untrained rogues than once-finished horses. 

This horse will probably tune up quite quickly. He does not need to be trained from scratch but just sharply reminded to behave.

The owner does not need to be crucified here. She needs to figure out how to be more assertive and how to never step back away from a horse. She needs a few sessions with a trained non-aggressive horse and needs to learn how to then get her own more dominant horse to back away from her instead of the other way around. 

So, speaking as a moderator now, everybody that is bullying this kid, "BACK OFF"! That is certainly how I see this. Just remember that this is NOT an untrained horse that some backyard person raised without every teaching any manners. This is an old show horse that has finally figured out that he is in charge. She has just needed some mentoring or some time spent with a trainer in the last four years and did not get it. I think she now knows that horses do not just automatically stay tuned up. She now knows that behavior can go south right along with performance. 

It is probably not going to take that much time or work at a trainer to fix the horse and I'll bet she already has a lot better idea of what she did wrong and what she needs to fix -- with a trainer's help.

And OP -- I am sorry you had to listen to how it is all your fault and will go right back to the same thing when you were clueless as to what even happened in the first place. 

Good luck with him. He will be a lot happier, too after he gets his butt kicked back into shape. You will see a lot less ear pinning and a lot less bad attitude. A well mannered horse is a lot happier horse.


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

sparky, these people are trying to help you. if you want help, it is not a good idea to be rude or defensive to those trying to help you. 

i agree, that if you send him off to a trainer you should go and get some lessons as well. there is obviously something that is not clicking between you and your horse. good luck.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Cherie said:


> Excuse me people --- Does anyone here recognize the difference between a well trained finished show horse going South (and taking several years to do so) and the usual aggressive never-trained rogues that people usually come to the boards with?
> 
> I have taken on several of each kinds -- probably more untrained rogues than once-finished horses.
> 
> ...



Thank you Cherie. Well said.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Phew! I read through all of this... LOL
OP, the issue I see is THREEfold. One is that the horse is acting dangerous and you are (by your own admission) incapable of handling this. Two is that you are busy with school and a social life (things have changed in 40 years.. but I can tell you that I was in HS at your age and training horses PT and holding other PT jobs because I had to pay for college.. and I had to keep an "A" GP avg. and.. believe me.. I was not brilliant!). Three is I keep hearing how much you "love" this horse. 

Honestly? You need a professional to deal with both the horse AND with you. You need to know how to handle this horse and keep him tuned up and respectful. If you cannot do that you are putting yourself in danger (and anyone else who comes around the horse as well). 

If you cannot do that, for your own safety, selling the horse might be your best option. The problem with that is the horse is dangerous.. how are you going to sell him and what would your liability be? This means sending him to an auction and.. well.. you probably would never do that.

Last, and not least, is you "love" this horse. As a result of that, you are thinking with your heart and not your head (and yeah.. I have done that too). If the horse is dangerous.. to the extent your describe.. rearing to be put back in the pasture, I can tell you that all the love in the world won't matter. He could kill you. 

This is serious stuff. Really serious stuff. Coming here and asking questions is a start.. but when dealing with a seriously dangerous horse you need hands on help. You need to stay safe. 

It will be very hard for you to do.. but if you are afraid of this horse and he could kill you because of his behavior.. and you do not have time to work with him consistantly with a trainer (every day is consistantly).. what are you going to do? What happens when you head for college in 2 years? 

Not being mean here.. just very concerned for your safety and well being. Loving an animal that may kill you is really making the water muddy for you. 

Whatever you decide, please stay safe!


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

What I am seeing is that initially with bad behavior there may have been some excuses (he's having an off day), etc. Often when this is going on the horse is petted right after inappropriate behavior to soothe them. Soothing works for toddlers, not horses that are misbehaving. It is seen as a reward. Often times this escalates with the behaviour getting worse and the handler is in over her head, possibly displaying fear which the horse picks up on. To the horse, someone is going to call the shots and if the handler doesn't, then the horse will and he learns quickly how to intimidate the handler. I too will recommend you have a trainer, but if he/she will, come to your place whereby you are trained along with the horse. You need to be able to watch and have hands on to gain experience in dealing with a horse like yours.


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## Sparkyintention (Jan 21, 2012)

Thanks Cherie, everyone else, sorry, but you arent listening! But thank you to the few who have helped and listened to the entire thing! 
There was a slight random improvement today! I went to take his blankets off and he came trotting up to me and he laid his head on my chest and let me handle him. I did reward him for that. No im not stupid thanks, I don't reward a horse for bad behavior, give me some credit people. Either help or dont post. Easy as that.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

I've seen this problem way too often, in fact, something just like this brought me to this forum in the first place (so that was good).
I used to take in horses like this for retraining because it they made me look good as in a few days they would be behaving like they should. Most were easy fixes. Maybe 'fix' isn't the correct word. Horses aren't like you got your car brakes fixed & the owner is good to go. Contrary to popular belief car mechanics & horse trainers don't have time delay fail mechanisms installed on the car or horses they work on. We really don't like your horses coming back over & over for the same reasons.

What some of these owners are lacking is intuition or feel & that is the hardest thing to teach.

Adults have work, family obligations, households & barns to run on a daily basis & many of our horses aren't in steady work but they don't misbehave. The age of the handler doesn't really matter but actions do~feel & intuition.

I no longer do these types of horses & it's not because of the horses.


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## Sparkyintention (Jan 21, 2012)

natisha said:


> Adults have work, family obligations, households & barns to run on a daily basis & many of our horses aren't in steady work but they don't misbehave. The age of the handler doesn't really matter but actions do~feel & intuition.
> 
> I no longer do these types of horses & it's not because of the horses.



I understand this, but it's hard with school. I have no time to ride. By the time I get home, it's dark outside. How am I supposed to work him? I need an education, and that's a little more than any kind of really steady work to keep him on track. It's not my fault. I'm aware that it's a serious problem. But for the time being, there is NOTHING I can do about it on my own.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Sparky, some of us (me including) often stop riding in winter when there is an ice, or hard ground. Plus (as you said) coming home when it's getting dark is another big issue (at least for me as we don't have inside or lights outside). Spring tune-up is a great way to deal with the time-off. 

You already said you are sending this horse to the trainer. :wink: I'd also ask for lessons for yourself on him, because lessons are priceless in such situations. 

Good luck with your horse!


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

he came trotting up to me and he laid his head on my chest 

Invading your space. That in itself is disrespectful behaviour. And you rewarded him. Case in point.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Cherie, I couldn't have put it better. I add that I think this horse's schooling over the years had to have been erratic--sometimes a firm hand, sometimes not--and bouncing back and forth between the two. I'm NOT the trainer Cherie is, but* I've owned enough horses that somebody else started well* and I've maintained the training. As these horses have aged they become (or are becoming) more docile and easier to work with.
The WORST behavior that my babysitter horses (now passed on) exhibited was to take the novice rider at a walk back to their tie spot. My Mare did this about a year ago when we had friends out to ride, and she had had enough of amatuers. She pushed open the gate of the training area with her nose, walked through the turnout gate ( it was open ) and stopped at the spot I tie her to at the trailer, where I tack her up. (It WAS pretty funny!)
There is an auction house right next to Amish community an hour from us that used to have a LOT of trainers who turn around "retreads" like your horse. They buy problems, assert authority, and resell the result, but *these horses can spot a weak rider in a heartbeat. *
I think, since you do not have the tools to retrain him, you should send him to a trainer to sell him. I have NEVER owned a horse that struck at me, and MY horses are careful to not kick my dogs when they play with them. 
















*Horses are VERY AWARE of where their feet are.*
ONE MORE POINT: THIS is why so many of us are starting our own colts, now bc there are a LOT of such horses now on the market. At 54yo I'm too old to want to bother fighting them, but I used to. _This accounts for so many threads here of people getting hurt by the new horse that they just brought home._ =/


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## bellagris (Dec 6, 2010)

Sparky, I didn't read through every single post on here, but I noticed you asked about something you could give your boy to calm him down. There is a herbal remedy called 'Chill' it works really well, it doesn't make the horse sleepy or anything but just takes the edge off. Could be something you should try.

As for all the negativity towards you, you're young and need help -you've admitted that and I think thats great. Sending him to a trainer isn't going to ultimately fix the problem as that authority needs to be maintained at all times, but you are smart to send him out to someone more experienced and not try something unsafe. I wonder if once your horse goes to the trainer, perhaps when you bring him back your trainer can come to you and give you some lessons and teach you her methods so that you can send the message that syou're the boss and also do that in a place you typically ride so you're comfortable Just a thought, but one I think that would definitely be worth is as it will likely save you money down the road if you do no need to send him out anymore but rather learn how to communicate with him. But it will also improve your relationship with your horse so you're not fighting while you're up there but learning tow ork together.

goodluck!


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## Fargosgirl (Jan 12, 2012)

The issues you are having with your horse sound too big for you to deal with on your own. Many people have posted that you should SEND your horse away to a trainer, I feel that would only be a temporary fix, Please try to find a trainer who will work with your horse and you. You need to be able to see how the trainer addresses each problem behavior and learn from the trainer how to deal with these behaviors on your own, so you can maintain the level of learning your horse has achieved.

While I am a devoted NH person I don't think it is for everyone, (I know I might be really stepping in it here) If your horse has previous training in a specific sport please stick to the training your horse is accustomed to, switching training styles this late in your horse's life can lead to confusion. Find a trainer that is skilled in the discipline your horse is trained in AND is willing to help _you _with the issues your horse is presenting you with.

It is pointless for you to pay for more training if you don't know how to use the training your horse has received, I can't stress enough that horse and rider must be educated TOGETHER.


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## Sparkyintention (Jan 21, 2012)

Saddlebag said:


> he came trotting up to me and he laid his head on my chest
> 
> Invading your space. That in itself is disrespectful behaviour. And you rewarded him. Case in point.


 Ummm. I have always allowed him to do this. I find it nice to see that he wants attention and atleast he is coming up to me. Therefore, yes I will reward him. Case proven.


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## Cinder (Feb 20, 2011)

Sparky, sorry to say but I think that when you are recieving a few of these posts you have been a bit rude and immature yourself. 

You say that you do not have enough time to ride your horse. Many people have stated that this seems like a more dominant horse. Sure, you can send him to a trainer, and perhaps you'll be able to keep him acting like a doll when he gets home. But what happens when you're busy at school again? You may have the skill set you need to keep him in line by then, but if you don't ride him for a long time he may be the same exact way he is now. Yes, some horses can be left for a long time and behave pretty well when ridden again. However, other horses well definitely not behave well, and it could be to the point where he's dangerous again. 

I think you need to sit down and think long and hard about what you want. It seems like you are really focusing on academics right now, which is awesome and the right thing to do. If you would like to continue down this road, perhaps it would be the best thing for you and your horse go your seperate ways. Not just for your safety, but really long-term happiness. I know your heart might break thinking about having to sell him now, but it's better than ending up in a hospital because you let your love for your horse control your mind. 

Oh, and by the way, the horse putting his head on your chest probably was a disrepsectful behavior. I know it seems cute, but this sounds eerily similar to your horse using you as a human scratching post (I've had a few horses that liked to do this before). It seems to me that this may be a gesture that proves that he thinks he is the dominant one in the relationship, or the "Alpha". 

I'm not trying to be rude or mean at all, but this is a situation that you have to be very realistic in. If selling your horse is the best way, sell him. If sending him to a trainer will work well (you know your horse better than I do, obviously) do that.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Sparkyintention said:


> I understand this, but it's hard with school. *I have no time to ride.* By the time I get home, it's dark outside. How am I supposed to work him? I need an education, and that's a little more than any kind of really steady work to keep him on track. It's not my fault. I'm aware that it's a serious problem. But for the time being, there is NOTHING I can do about it on my own.


I'd like to say that everyone that has posted has YOUR best interest at heart. I think you nailed it with above, bold. You are inexperienced and you lack time. YOU HAVE THE WRONG HORSE!!
I won't give you any more advice. I think you may get hurt with this one. I've been hurt before and I don't want to be hurt again, but...to each his/her own.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

He can approach you and stand without invading your space. You can go into his but he's not to enter your's. His space is a 3' circle around you. What would you do if he opted to grab a big hunk of skin while his head was on your chest? Horses have done this and literally flung people like a rag doll. That is why a horse stays out of your space. Buck Branaman tells of a horse grabbing a fellow by the cheek and flinging him.


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## bellagris (Dec 6, 2010)

Saddlebag, one of the most experienced and hard assed trainers I know lost half a finger to her stallion from one misread of her horse in 18 years, bit it right off. He's not a crazy horse, he was a fabulous show horse and I rode him this spring, but a horse is a horse and like any animal they have their days.

I agree with you, the horse approaches but stays respectfully out of your personal space. That should be a rule. My mare always approaches me when called, but waits until I come to her space for a scratch. 

1200 lbs is a lot to deal with and a horse can really hurt you if you don't pay attention. Sparky, it may be that your horse requires regular handling and if you don't have the time to ride and handle him, or cannot afford to hire someone to excersize him that you may need a different horse. My mare I can leave for months in pasture, pull her out and get right on her, she is 4 years old. Not all horses are like that, and many need regular work and an experienced hand.

That is not to say sell him, but read your horse and what he needs because they are herd animals and are happiest in regular structure. He many require regular handling, at 17 if he gets hot like this, he likely needs it. Goodluck!


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## Sparkyintention (Jan 21, 2012)

I've never had a problem with personal space and I have larger problems at the moment than that anyway. First, he needs to stop trying to kill me, then I'll worry about the petting. Haha


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

With horses, it usually starts with petting and then escalates to killing. It's the small things that make the big picture.


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## Sparkyintention (Jan 21, 2012)

I've never given him a reward for being bad though. Thats why I don't understand why everyone is saying or assuming that because I havent. He's never really bitten me, or bucked, kicked or reared until now. He was A good trained horse. HE WAS ALREADY TRAINED. He isn't leaving, I'm not selling him, a trainer will work just fine and from there on out, I will have to figure out how to balance it. I've never felt comfortable with another rider on my horse, soo. I don't know what I'm going to do.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

how can he be trying to kill you if he's out of your personal space?


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## Sparkyintention (Jan 21, 2012)

OMG. You don't read. He is in my "personal space", therefore, it's easier for him to rear and strike at my face. That horse is about 1300 lbs bigger than me, he could easily kill me if hes out of my personal space.

He is already trained, for the 5th time, he just needs to be " Tuned - Up", which he will be.


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## Susan Crumrine (Oct 5, 2009)

Sparky,
I read the whole thread. Every single post. 
If I were you or you were me....
I look at my time and money as very precious resources. I know I only have a certain amount of each granted to me in this life....My time with horses is my reward for all the work I do and the way I care for everyone in my house.
I would not keep an animal I felt was "trying to kill me".... not much fun there for me.
There are plenty of horses out there who never thought about killing someone.
Good Luck to you, you sound like a hard working young woman!


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## Sparkyintention (Jan 21, 2012)

He's my first horse and though we've hit a rough spot the one thing I can come home to and he will still be my bestfriend. I can't let this rough spot take that freedom to have him away from me.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

If it _*indeed *_started all the sudden have you checked him for pain? May be ulcers? Usually there is a reason for a _*sudden *_change in horse's behavior. If it did escalate with time then it's something you are doing incorrectly unfortunately. Horses (especially alphas) are like that: you give them a finger, they bite off the arm.


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## Cintillate (Jan 8, 2012)

Was reading through this. I am a nursing student and my course can reach up to 7 days a week and depending on my shifts at the hospital I barely get some sleep myself. I have had a similar problem with one of my horses but didn't have a trainer available so dealt with it myself.

Time is not a luxury for everyone, unfortunately. Time and effort is important but I think quality is better than quantity. Safety is important and I think getting a trainer is a good idea and if possible can you get lessons together so you are working together. I agree doing it yourself would be best but if you feel unsafe getting help is best.


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## bellagris (Dec 6, 2010)

If you are set on keeping him and get a trainer to come out and train you and your horse together. Is that no possible for you to do?


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## Sparkyintention (Jan 21, 2012)

It won't be possible for me to do until atleast summer. Thats what is so hard about all of this. I have no time. Therefore, he would have to be sent away when necessary have a tune up.


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## BarnQueen (Mar 7, 2011)

I think you need to stop seeing him as "your best friend". I understand what you had, and what you want, but it he has rewritten the rules and status of the pecking order. You probably used to be on a higher order than him, but that has clearly changed. 

I know you don't have much time and daylight (at the moment) to ride him, but there are fundamental ground issues, not riding issues. Walk him with a chain, carry a whip, let him know that you are THERE and you are ready to kill him, the way that he is ready to kill you.

I am not saying to punish him for no reason - correct him, but stay emotionless. The second he stops, you stop... no sooner, no later! He clearly has no problem hurting you, so you better make sure he gets that that goes both ways. 

I know this is hard, but you need to emotionally distance yourself from it. He is not your best friend - your boyfriend can give you that affection. 

I think that you can and need to do ground work (and this comes from someone who spend hours every day doing that). It's tedious, it's not fun, and it's not instant gratification! You are scared, and he knows it. Doing the ground work will empower you!


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## Sparkyintention (Jan 21, 2012)

He is still my best friend regardless. Yes, serious ground issues. I'm going to attempt to work with him tomorrow a little on whatever I can get him to do since I'm not going to school anyway. I'll most likely try this


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## Whisper22 (Jan 2, 2011)

By your own admission, just so there's no confusion, you have always allowed your horse to invade your space because you like that he wants attention. This is just not the right thing to do. I had a three year old mare that I allowed to invade my space all the time because she was sweet and cute and I felt like she loved me. When this behavior inevitably got in the way of her training, I cut her off completely from doing it on her terms, and ONLY allowed it occasionally on MY terms. Drastic measures need to be taken, and even the small things will count big in the end. You should be willing to do anything and everything you can with what little time you have to work with him.

I know you hate to hear that selling your horse might be the right thing to do, but there might not be anything YOU can do with the time you have. Even with the help of a trainer, if you don't have the time to make it stick, you will never be able to enjoy the horse you want.

Please be careful. As a parent, and I think this may be where Northern was coming from with her parent comment, if my child owned a horse she felt was trying to kill her, whether or not I knew anything about horses, it would be bye bye horsey until said child is of age and keeping herself alive becomes HER responsibility.


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## cowgirlup07 (Mar 13, 2008)

Saddlebag said:


> He can approach you and stand without invading your space. You can go into his but he's not to enter your's. His space is a 3' circle around you. What would you do if he opted to grab a big hunk of skin while his head was on your chest? Horses have done this and literally flung people like a rag doll. That is why a horse stays out of your space. Buck Branaman tells of a horse grabbing a fellow by the cheek and flinging him.


I've been training for years now, since I was 7 to be exact. And no I don't mean going out throwing the saddle on a tame pony and taking off, I mean blood sweat and tears (literally) with the big horses and big trainers. Not too long back a lady told me I was handling my horse wrong I wanted to know what she ment as she was also a trainer herself and I'm always ready for a new trick or tip, she said when I call my horse to me after lunging that I should not "let" him approach me as I did because he lowered his head and was very close to me when he stopped. This horse was at times a problem but never "pushed his limits" so I would reward him for coming like that as long as he was calm and his head was lowered. A lot of the show horses I've met have been trained to the point that "head down" is a sign of "I will not challenge, I respect you" could that be the case here? Was he trained this way? Just asking hypothetically. Have to look at every angle here.


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## Annnie31 (May 26, 2011)

Sparky...if he isnt behaving for you, hand the lead to someone who isnt afraid to handle him (youre mom or dad or Barn Manager) and see how he reacts to them.

If his respect issue with you is simply one he has learned because he has had time to slowly undo his training, it will show. Usually one or two corrections from and experienced handler will put him back in line. (This will have to happen for each bad behavior so handing the reins or lead to someone once will not work  ) If he corrects easily for the experienced handler you know the problem is more than likely and ongoing errosion of training.

For example you are riding him at a lope and he misses his lead, or stops in stride when you have asked him to do something he knows well. You try two or three times and he doesnt get it, you feel sorry for him and call it a day because you are tired and he isnt getting it. These are things that cause a systematic errosion of a horses training. It isnt the big things, its the little things that bit by bit allow a horse to become more and more bossy, ie: with the I dont feel like doing that today attitude.... and the often pushy bad response.

I dont think anyone on here with some experience with riding dont understand your situation. In fact most of us understand it too well. While I understand you are only 16 and school is a priority, youre problem with this horse whom you have said is your BF is an experienced adult training problem. Responses from some are geared to try to make you understand that your horse needs a trainer if you are to continue working with him. 

If you can get him to a trainer that would be great, if you cant, and you were my daughter, I would not allow you to handle him until he has been put back in his place with a firm hand. If there is no one available to do that for you there really is very little advice anyone can offer on this forum that I personally would be comfortable agreeing with as your safety should be first and foremost. The advice given should be based on your ability to safely execute it and your maturity to understand the issues and resolutions. 

The best and only advice has been given already by Cherie, get a trainer, and learn what has been causing his regression and what you need to do to correct it. Getting angry at others on the forum because they dont agree with you or understand you is non productive because the advice to sell, work more etc is all good advice and seriously would be considered by most horsey parents of a 16 year old. It may be harsh but my daughter would never have been allowed to own a horse if she didnt have the time and drive to get to the barn every day and keep that horse exercised and happy. It was a rule in our home growing up. Her grades never suffered and she won awards and was an A and B student all the way through high school. Owning a horse is not a part time job even for the young. 

Best of luck with him. I truly hope you figure him out and get back to the harmony you once had with him.


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## Sparkyintention (Jan 21, 2012)

I really wish I had time to actually fully respond to everyones post! When I got him ever as a previously abused and neglected horse he acted just fine. That's why we bought him. If I work with him today I will TRY my best to make a video.


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## Sparkyintention (Jan 21, 2012)

Sooo, today he let me lunge him without any attitude. He didn't " get in my space ", let me lead him, had his head down when he was next to me, all things were good. He gave me attitude when I started lunging him but he normally kicks and gets his kinks out anyway. I'm very proud of him


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## bellagris (Dec 6, 2010)

that's great.

A thought though, perhaps if while you are in school you either hired someone to ride him even once a week, or offered him up to someone who just wants to ride and is experiences enough that you could even have him excersized for free. I know you don't like other people riding your horse, and i do understand that. But my horse neds excersize and if I can't provide enough of it for her (i was out for a month with a concussion) I hired someone to ride her for me twice a week even just in the arena.


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