# Western bits



## Lenuccia (Oct 3, 2009)

Hi everybody,

I'm not a very experienced western rider but I'm trying to learn 

I have a couple of questions about western bits. My paint horse is being ridden with a Pelham bit, like an English Pelham but used as a shank bit (the previous owner advised me to use it). But in some way I think she is not so comfortable with this bit, and as I have an Argentinian bit lying about, I thought of trying it on her. 

Her tongue is quite large and the Argentinian is thinner than the Pelham, so maybe that would leave more space for her tongue. At the same time I don't want to use a severe bit (my dream would be to ride her bitless but we'll have to try that when we get an arena). Is the Argentinian bit severe? (I know that it all comes up to the hands of the rider, and I'm the kind of rider that tries to be very gentle and leave the horse's mouth alone). Or would it be better to use a snaffle? She's fine with neck reining (and so am I). 

Could anyone tell me something about side-pulls? Good/bad experiences. 

She is very calm but as we are mostly trail riding, I would like to have a sure "brake", just in case...:?


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## Haley (Aug 18, 2009)

I would just try the snaffle and see how it goes, since it's your goal to have her in kind bit/bridle. You never know, you said she doesn't like them pelham, so maybe she'd do well in a regular snaffle?

Could you post a pic of an argentinian bit? I'm not familiar with them.


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## Lenuccia (Oct 3, 2009)

*Western bit*

Hi there,

this is the kind of bit I have. I THINK its called an Argentinian, at least that's what I've been reading (been googling a lot :lol: )

I am actually considering a snaffle as you say, but don't you think she'll get confused when used to a curb bit? And what about snaffle/neck reining?

Forgive me my ignorance :wink:


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

If you can use a snaffle then by all means use a snaffle!

I'd give anything to ride Sunny in a snaffle :/

That bit you have shown is made to be ridden with 4 reins. So it is like a tad harsher version of pelham, only western style. At least IMO.

Snaffles aren't made to be neckreined, so it'd be best to stick with direct reining *if you can* but it isn't a sin to neckrein one, lol.


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## Lenuccia (Oct 3, 2009)

*Bits*

Well, I kind of sensed that this Argentinian (or whatever it's called) bit would be severe :-( Out of the question, then!

So I think I'll try with a nice and simple snaffle. She was trained with a bosal (or so the previous owner told me), so I don't know if she's ever tried a snaffle. But if I just keep cueing her with legs and weight, then I'll have to try to figure out if the snaffle works with the neck reining. It kind of fells like going back, I mean, usually people go from snaffle to curb, but maybe it's just because it's not allowed to show adult horses in snaffles. 

Thank you both!


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## ridesapaintedpony (Apr 14, 2009)

I use a JP Korsteel full cheek snaffle and yes we are teaching neck reining with it.


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

Lenuccia said:


> Well, I kind of sensed that this Argentinian (or whatever it's called) bit would be severe :-( Out of the question, then!
> 
> So I think I'll try with a nice and simple snaffle. She was trained with a bosal (or so the previous owner told me), so I don't know if she's ever tried a snaffle. But if I just keep cueing her with legs and weight, then I'll have to try to figure out if the snaffle works with the neck reining. It kind of fells like going back, I mean, usually people go from snaffle to curb, but maybe it's just because it's not allowed to show adult horses in snaffles.
> 
> Thank you both!


I'm sure she'll adjust fine


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> *Snaffles aren't made to be neckreined*, so it'd be best to stick with direct reining *if you can* but it isn't a sin to neckrein one, lol.


Rubbish :]

I ride both my horses in snaffles and both neckrein.

In MG you aren't allowed curb bits, and you spend 99% of the time carrying something, so you have to neck rein one handed. 

Snaffles are FINE for neck reining. Neck reining is the pressure of the rein on the NECK, it doesn't have much to do with the bit at all.


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## Kentucky (Aug 2, 2008)

^+1 on that, ever heard of the snaffle bit fururity, or reined cow horse compations National Reined Cow Horse Association - NRCHA - National Reined Cow Horse Association , and National Snaffle Bit Association - Home 

And I only ride with a snaffle bit and with Hercules, I can do some reining too. and at a level were i can compete with him but he can do it too.


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

I know you *can* neckrein in one, but I've always been told they aren't meant for it and give wrong signals.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> I've always been told they aren't meant for it and give wrong signals.


How can they give ANY signals when neckreining works on the pressure of the rein on the neck, not on the bit? The bit shouldn't be giving any signals when neckreining, unless you are also asking for a change of pace.


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

Ask an English person. I'm not English. 

Unless of course you ARE English. Then you can ask someone else why they think this.


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## Pidge (Sep 5, 2009)

start with an easy bit like a snaffle and work up from there till you find something that gives you control but also gives your horse comfort...there are millions of different bits out there so why not try them all! LOL not litterally but you get the picture...

As for side pulls I say unless it is one with a bit I wont touch them...they are great for training and pasture riding but thats all ill trust one with. You have no real way of pulling your horses head up if they go to buck and you dont have as good of control on stops....ive had a few take off with me before and even though they were very responsive horses usually there was really no way for me to stop them....atleast not quickly anyway...

If your going to go bitless Use a hackamore....and before even trying bitless make sure you can easily stop and pull your horses head up while bitless....


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## Pony~Princess (Aug 22, 2007)

Sunny06 said:


> If you can use a snaffle then by all means use a snaffle!
> 
> I'd give anything to ride Sunny in a snaffle :/
> 
> ...


 
That bit is NOT made to be rode with 4 reins. They do NOT Ride double reins in western. But yes that bit is a bit harsh becuase of the long shanks.


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

^ An Argentine bit is a _training_ bit. The rider can ride with 4 reins if they wish to fine-tune their horse's training. It *can* be ridden with 4 reins but is not required.

I've been told this, have read it, etc. It can be ridden with 4 reins.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> Ask an English person. I'm not English.
> 
> Unless of course you ARE English. Then you can ask someone else why they think this.


I'm not in America so I don't see myself as 'english' or 'western'. I do however ride both my horses in snaffle bits and neckrein both of them. I ride mounted games one handed, sporting one handed, and work cattle while holding a stockwhip in the other hand. They neck rein fine in snaffles. 

In all my years of doing so, I have never had a horse get confused signals once they have gotten the hang of neckreining.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Also wanted to add, I dont know anyone in Australia who thinks this. It seems to be a big misconception in the US that you can only neckrein in a curb bit.


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

wild_spot said:


> Also wanted to add, I dont know anyone in Australia who thinks this. It seems to be a big misconception in the US that you can only neckrein in a curb bit.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

^ lol.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

No, one of the main problems here is that people also pull on the bit while they neck rein because their horse's are not properly trained or the people don't know how to ride. When you do that, then yes, the signals can get confusing because you are cueing for a left turn with the right rein but also pulling on the right side of the bit and cueing for a right turn. Very confusing, especially to a young horse. So long as the reins are left loose, neck reining in a snaffle is a snap.

Plus, at breed shows, any horse that is ridden in a snaffle is supposed to be ridden with 2 hands and only horses 5 years old and younger can be ridden in a snaffle. All others must be ridden with one hand in a curb bit. At least that's how I think it is. It has been a long time since I was involved in the show world.

Also, I just wanted to add that if she was trained in a bosal, more likely than not, she would probably do better in a bosal hackamore or even a soft hackamore (rope halter). But for a beginning bit, the snaffle will be your best bet.


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## Ink (Sep 25, 2009)

smrobs said:


> No, one of the main problems here is that people also pull on the bit while they neck rein because their horse's are not properly trained or the people don't know how to ride. When you do that, then yes, the signals can get confusing because you are cueing for a left turn with the right rein but also pulling on the right side of the bit and cueing for a right turn. Very confusing, especially to a young horse. So long as the reins are left loose, neck reining in a snaffle is a snap.


Exactly! You can do the same thing in a curb bit if you're not careful too. But in general I think you're supposed to ride a snaffle with two hands b/c you're working with direct pressure as opposed to leverage like in the curb. 

Theoretically, the curb bit is used on a "broke" horse that neck reins etc. That's why you can only ride the 5 and under horses in snaffles (at least in the western quarter horse world). Ideally your horse should be completely responsive to the snaffle before you move up to a curb. If you just move up to a harsher bit without addressing the fundamental issues you'll just end up with a hard mouthed horse. 

It sounds like your horse could go in either a snaffle or a curb. So it's really up to you. But I would definitely go with a bit that's a little thicker and has shorter shanks if you decide to go with a curb bit.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> No, one of the main problems here is that people also pull on the bit while they neck rein because their horse's are not properly trained or the people don't know how to ride. When you do that, then yes, the signals can get confusing because you are cueing for a left turn with the right rein but also pulling on the right side of the bit and cueing for a right turn. Very confusing, especially to a young horse. So long as the reins are left loose, neck reining in a snaffle is a snap.


Wouldn't that be just as confusing in a curb? Only more so as the signal would be magnified due to the leverage?


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

No, I don't think so. With the curbs that I use (solid mouth), even if I do have my reins too short, it picks up on the lower part of the shank and tips the bit in the mouth, essentially pushing his head in the same direction as I am reining them. Turn right = left rein, picks up shank and pushes bit into left side of face = turn right. At least that's how I think it works.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

That seems really backwards to me! However i've never ridden in a curb (something I would like to try though) so don't really have any experience of the actual action of the shank/mouthpiece...


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Sunny06 said:


> If you can use a snaffle then by all means use a snaffle!
> 
> I'd give anything to ride Sunny in a snaffle :/
> 
> ...


You are absolutely wrong about this bit. No western bit is made to be used with 4 reins. I can't tell you what the loops by the mouthpeice are for other than the style of the bit but I have never in 30 years seen anyone use four reins when riding western. That bit is a very good bit though. I have several and they work well.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

wild_spot said:


> Also wanted to add, I dont know anyone in Australia who thinks this. It seems to be a big misconception in the US that you can only neckrein in a curb bit.


There are a lot of people in th US that would agree with you (I am one). I see no problem neckreining a horse in a snaffle.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Sunny06 said:


> I know you *can* neckrein in one, but I've always been told they aren't meant for it and give wrong signals.


Guess you were told wrong!!!!


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I understand that the rings on the side of the bit are designed to be used when transitioning a young horse from a simple snaffle into that kind of bit/mouthpiece before introducing the curb pressure. Put your reins in those loops, then as they get comfortable with the feel of the bit, then you can use 4 reins if you wish just to ease the transition and gently introduce curb pressure. Just like the old vaqueros used to make a bridle horse, they would use the spade in conjunction with the hackamore and 4 reins to complete the transition.


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## Pidge (Sep 5, 2009)

smrobs is right with her last post....but that bit is also designed to be ridden after a transition with a curb strap, and one set of reins.... I fixed up a pic lol  

As for neck reining in a snaffle yes it can be done with absolutely no problem....its not the bit its how your ride lol though the event your in can affect this also....


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## Pony~Princess (Aug 22, 2007)

kevinshorses said:


> You are absolutely wrong about this bit. No western bit is made to be used with 4 reins. I can't tell you what the loops by the mouthpeice are for other than the style of the bit but I have never in 30 years seen anyone use four reins when riding western. That bit is a very good bit though. I have several and they work well.


 
Thank you!!!


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## Erin_And_Jasper (Jul 5, 2008)

Pidge said:


> smrobs is right with her last post....but that bit is also designed to be ridden after a transition with a curb strap, and one set of reins.... I fixed up a pic lol
> 
> As for neck reining in a snaffle yes it can be done with absolutely no problem....its not the bit its how your ride lol though the event your in can affect this also....


im pretty sure its not for the curb strap. i agree with people that say its to beused in a transition


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## Pidge (Sep 5, 2009)

I know it can be used for transition but it can also be a riding bit...in which case you would put a curb strap there....I have a friend who rides three of her horses with that bit...or ones that are almost exactly the same anyway...

Point is they are mostly used for transition but people do ride with them and there is a curb strap attatched when riding with it....I personally dont like them myself but thats just me...I prefer solid mouth pieces....alot of people dont....go figure eveyone is different.


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## Lenuccia (Oct 3, 2009)

*Wow, thanks!*

I'm amazed! So much information and such an interesting discussion  Thank you all!

Well, okay then, I guess I'll settle for the snaffle and the neck rein. But what about the curb strap? I have seen people with snaffles AND the curb strap (well, I don't know what it's called if it's not attached to a curb bit, but you know what I mean...). I have read that it's put to prevent the snaffle from being pulled into the horse's mouth. But if it's neck reined, that doesn't apply, right?

So curb strap or no curb strap with snaffle/neck reining? :-?


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> Guess you were told wrong!!!!


I guess..








But I still stand by what I said..


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> Well, okay then, I guess I'll settle for the snaffle and the neck rein. But what about the curb strap? I have seen people with snaffles AND the curb strap (well, I don't know what it's called if it's not attached to a curb bit, but you know what I mean...). I have read that it's put to prevent the snaffle from being pulled into the horse's mouth. But if it's neck reined, that doesn't apply, right?
> 
> So curb strap or no curb strap with snaffle/neck reining? :???:


I don't know about the US, but in AUS, we call that a 'lip strap'. I use one, simply because while I neck rein most of the time, when i'm doing fast work such as a working class, cattle work, polocrosse, I do direct rein, and it prevents the bit from pullinh through the horses mouth. It's not really a problem unless you will be doing fast work while direct reining, when the situtation may call for a pretty sharp, fast turn. Normal trail riding/general riding, you wouldn't need one.


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## Erin_And_Jasper (Jul 5, 2008)

kevinshorses said:


> Guess you were told wrong!!!!


 wow thats incredibly rude thing to say


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## qtrhrsecrazy (Aug 2, 2009)

That bit pictured is not an Argentine bit.. it's more of the reiner style with the longer shanks. Argentine bits have a short shank
Argentine Bits


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## Pidge (Sep 5, 2009)

Lenuccia said:


> I'm amazed! So much information and such an interesting discussion  Thank you all!
> 
> Well, okay then, I guess I'll settle for the snaffle and the neck rein. But what about the curb strap? I have seen people with snaffles AND the curb strap (well, I don't know what it's called if it's not attached to a curb bit, but you know what I mean...). I have read that it's put to prevent the snaffle from being pulled into the horse's mouth. But if it's neck reined, that doesn't apply, right?
> 
> So curb strap or no curb strap with snaffle/neck reining? :-?


 
I would use one just in case...You never know when something might pop up and you need to move your horse quick with a direct rein...esspecially if you horse isnt real sensitive to the neck rein...and if you do need a qick direct rein its much easier when the snaffle isnt being pulled through your horses mouth...

I also knew a mare once who would pull the ring of the snaffle into her mouth and suck on...when she did you had to pop the bit back out of her mouth to regain control and i was always worried someone was going to hurt her teeth yanking it out...(this was at camp)...after looking around I found out she wasnt the only horse to do this...so a curb strap can prevent this odd little situation as well


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

Erin_And_Jasper said:


> wow thats incredibly rude thing to say


I think I can be the judge of that considering it was directed towards me. 

I took no offence to it.

I _know_ I wasn't told wrong, so it dosen't mean much to me


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Yeah, with all my snaffles I use a curb strap, though I have heard it called a bit-hobble by some old cowboys and learned that it is also called a lip-strap from Wild_Spot. On a horse who neck reins, it is not a necessity and doesn't really serve much purpose but IMHO, it is better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. Most of the reason that I have one on all my bits is that I ride lots of young horses and they can be perfect for the whole ride and then something scares them where I have to take their head. If they fight or try to evade the bit by opening their mouth, no hobble means that the bit ends up on the side of the face. Not a comfortable feeling on a young horse LOL. But it's really your call with that. I always use them but other people never do and don't have any problems.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> I _know_ I wasn't told wrong, so it dosen't mean much to me


So you don't think snaffles are suitabel for neckreining?

Come visit me and i'll prove otherwise :]


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

^ That wasn't what we were talking about.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Then what were you talking about? *confused face*


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

No, they were talking about 4 reins with the shanked bit....................... right?


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## Erin_And_Jasper (Jul 5, 2008)

kevin was rude imo but she said I _know_ I wasn't told wrong, so it dosen't mean much to me


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> No, they were talking about 4 reins with the shanked bit....................... right?


Ah, that might have been it :]


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## Lenuccia (Oct 3, 2009)

Well guys, I think I got the information I needed. The Argentinian bit on the photo is not Argentinian, you can neck rein with a snaffle and it's a good idea to put on a curb strap/chin strap or whatever we'll decide to call them :lol:

What a nice comunity full of helpful people!

Thanks again all!


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

Erin_And_Jasper said:


> kevin was rude imo but she said I _know_ I wasn't told wrong, so it dosen't mean much to me


Huh??


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

^ Lol, that's what I thought :]

Glad to help, Lenuccia!


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## Erin_And_Jasper (Jul 5, 2008)

i thought you were saying it didnt bother you that kevin was rude to you


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

^ I was


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## xEquestrianx (Aug 30, 2009)

Personally I don't like Argentines...my friend uses one on her horse and he fights it so much..(I've ridden him in it).


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## Rod (Aug 26, 2009)

Hi All, 

This thread is about dead but I haven't been on the forum for several days- been busy lately. I guess I have too many horses to ride. How can some of you have thousands of posts and still get your horses rode?

I took a bit and spur making workshop in 1991 at the Elko Cowboy Poetry Gathering. Have made about 250 bits and spurs since then. I think there are some inaccuracies about this bit that I'd like to try and clear up. 

You can set this bit up anyway you would like and I won't tell you it is wrong but the bit was designed to be used a certain way. There has been some discussion about the middle ring. The middle ring is to prevent the mouthpiece from sliding up and down the shank. It is an easy, simple way to stabilize the mouthpiece that looks good if done right. It was not designed for a set of reins or to attach a curb strap to. In fact if you put the curb strap on the middle ring you would loose the mechanical advantage or leverage this bit was designed to give. If you put the reins on it, it would work like a d-ring snaffle and again would loose leverage. If you put a set of reins on the rein loop and a set on the middle ring I think I would need three hands to make it work properly- one hand for each direct rein and another hand for the indirect reins. 

BTW- here in the Great Basin Buckaroo Culture if we use two sets of reins such as with a thin bosal under a bridle bit, we call that a two-rein set up or outfit (or simply a two-rein) not a 4 rein. 

This bit is relatively severe because of the ratio between the upper and lower parts of the shank. It would work exceptionally well for someone with good hands. 

Rod


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

Lenuccia said:


> Well guys, I think I got the information I needed. The Argentinian bit on the photo is not Argentinian, you can neck rein with a snaffle and it's a good idea to put on a curb strap/chin strap or whatever we'll decide to call them :lol:
> 
> What a nice comunity full of helpful people!
> 
> Thanks again all!


I think the OP got the answer. If they ever come back to this site I would like to recommend the Myler Comfort snaffle
I've never ordered from that site but that is a darn good price.

I would like to apologize to you Lenuccia, a fairly new member, for all the snipping. We are usually more friendly ;-)


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## Lenuccia (Oct 3, 2009)

*Forums*

Hey Vidaloco,

don't worry, I know that there are as many opinions as there are persons. I am also a registered user on a Danish horse forum (I'm originally from Denmark, Scandinavia  ) and I can tell you that the discussions there are very similar , people don't always agree and they don't hesitate to tell the others. There are not so many western riders in Scandinavia though, and the Italian forums are kind of... not so serious... so that's why I found this forum. 

So far it's been very helpful.

Lene


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