# What's with all the haters?



## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

I agree


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

And while I also agree, it is a two way street. Bashing others because they choose to not participate in NH doesn't make them abusive owners...


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## HorseSavvy (Mar 15, 2009)

I completely agree, corinowalk  I just wanted to address it here because it seemed more prevalent. We really do need to respect eachother's opinions in every forum section, unless it truly is harmful.


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## Tennessee (Dec 7, 2008)

I don't have a problem with natural horsemanship. I quite like it. I have a problem with a lot of the mainstream "NH" trainers because they are nothing but big ole money lovin' posers (cough Parelli cough).


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## HorseSavvy (Mar 15, 2009)

I also agree with that, Tennessee. I wish we had some of the old NH pros that began it all


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## PerchiesKisses (Dec 6, 2010)

Agree! I think we should keep an open mind about all forms of horsemanship and learn what we can from every piece we see.


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## palominolover (Apr 28, 2010)

Tennessee said:


> I don't have a problem with natural horsemanship. I quite like it. I have a problem with a lot of the mainstream "NH" trainers because they are nothing but big ole money lovin' posers (cough Parelli cough).



*sigh*... I''m not trying to get into an argument, but my trainers at my barn use Parelli quite successfully. Sure they don't buy all his gadgets or whatever, but they use his method =)


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

I just like trees.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

palominolover said:


> *sigh*... I''m not trying to get into an argument, but my trainers at my barn use Parelli quite successfully. Sure they don't buy all his gadgets or whatever, but they use his method =)


You see this kind of comment is where the problems start maybe, from both sides..

If they aren't buying the gadgets then the true PP people will say that they aren't really following the program.

I don't have an issue with true NH methods, I do have an issue with overpriced gadgets, and I do have an issue with both sides who say that theirs is the only way.


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

i think you can like the parelli methods with out liking the man.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

There is a specific reason we use the tools we use.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Here's my .2 cents as to why NH invites so much negative attention -

First of all, by segregating themselves from other horseman by calling themselves "Natural Horseman", thereby implying the rest of us are unnatural. 

By making it seem like "natural horsemanship" is something special, separate and apart rather than just the principles of good horsmanship. Understanding the horse's body language and herd behavior, training without pain or fear and using pressure and release have been around since Xenophon, and good trainers have been using them since then. Why the need to brand it as something new?

The PT Barnum type marketing approach and product branding of some of the current NH gurus.

The exploititive nature of some of the NH trainers that has lead many novices to believe that they can learn to train horses from watching DVDs.

To sum up, I find the principles of the so called "NH" to be interesting and useful tools for any trainer's tool box. I find some of the current NH trainers to be very interesting, well worth watching and learning from, and incorporate some of their ideas into my own work with horses. 

I find the business and marketing phenomenon known as Natural Horsemanship to be ridiculous and some times dangerous. 

So that's "what's with all the haters."


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

What I find fascinating is how people insist on differentiation. 
There is an NH subsection to discuss NH.

All the NH trainers work on negative reinforcement. They just package it a certain way.

The training methods I see discussed in the non-NH forum are also based on negative reinforcement.

So other than packaging whats the difference?

Posted this at the same time as Mauras above - not meaning to duplicate, but somewhat similar thought process.)


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## sierrams1123 (Jul 8, 2011)

**



horsesavvy said:


> why is this section of the forum crawling with haters? So many of the posts i see in here bash nh methods. I thought this was suppossed to be a section to discuss nh? Come on, people, let's all chill out. Just because someone doesn't share your opinion on horse training doesn't give you the right to bash them or their training methods. Can we please be civilized and show a little respect for both our opinions and eachother?


 

yes ma"am!!!!! Preach it!


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

palominolover said:


> *sigh*... I''m not trying to get into an argument, but my trainers at my barn use Parelli quite successfully. Sure they don't buy all his gadgets or whatever, but they use his method =)





Golden Horse said:


> You see this kind of comment is where the problems start maybe, from both sides..
> ... .


Dear Golden

Are you referring to palominolover's post #8 as where the problems start, or the post she quoted, #5 by Tennessee ? Just wondering, I've been trying a half hour to multi quote all three and can't get it, either miss one, or the embedded quote doesn't come through. 

So I just want to understand which you are referencing as the possible trouble starter, the one who first took a stab, or the one who defended? 

Thanks,
Ann


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## HorseSavvy (Mar 15, 2009)

maura said:


> Here's my .2 cents as to why NH invites so much negative attention -
> 
> First of all, by segregating themselves from other horseman by calling themselves "Natural Horseman", thereby implying the rest of us are unnatural.
> 
> ...


Maura, this is awesome  Exactly what I've been looking for! 

I don't want people to think I'm trying to start arguements, I just think we all need to cool it a little and take the time to learn more about eachother's training methods before we go around making gerneralizations.

But if you want to know what I think, I agree with Maura (see quote). I believe there is a middle ground when it comes to training. A well rounded trainer will incorporate ideas from both NH and other training styles in their programs and work with a horse's natural instincts instead of working against them. 

I want to thank all of you so far for not starting any huge arguements  I'm glad the peace is being kept!


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

anndankev said:


> Dear Golden
> 
> Are you referring to palominolover's post #8 as where the problems start, or the post she quoted, #5 by Tennessee ? Just wondering, I've been trying a half hour to multi quote all three and can't get it, either miss one, or the embedded quote doesn't come through.
> 
> ...


I was referring to the *SIGH* start to #8, and I'm not saying that is where the trouble started, I was trying to say that it just sounded to me like the sort of comment where it _could_ start to go downhill.


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

Golden Horse said:


> .... where it _could_ start to go downhill.


 
Dear Golden

Now I understand. This one I think started at the beginning. 

I'm just so happy to hear from you, I've been feeling like and outcast thread killer here lately.
:hide:


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

> All the NH trainers work on negative reinforcement. They just package it a certain way.
> 
> The training methods I see discussed in the non-NH forum are also based on negative reinforcement.
> 
> So other than packaging whats the difference?


I'd love to hear people's perspective on this question...............


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

My perspective on the question....a lot of it comes down to attitude. I can only speak from a Parelli perspective seeing as that is the program I follow. If we have to correct a horse, we do so without any emotion. There is no "Hey!" or "Quit!" or jerking, smacking, hitting, kicking, etc. All of that is predatory behavior that does not work on prey animals. We are always offering the horse a way to become comfortable and we have to set it up so it's easy for him to find that 'open door.' Do you have that attitude of justice, or do you carry a predatory attitude that has a foundation of "showing the horse who is boss?"


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## tblver (Jul 9, 2011)

Spirithorse said:


> My perspective on the question....a lot of it comes down to attitude. I can only speak from a Parelli perspective seeing as that is the program I follow. If we have to correct a horse, we do so without any emotion. There is no "Hey!" or "Quit!" or jerking, smacking, hitting, kicking, etc. All of that is predatory behavior that does not work on prey animals. We are always offering the horse a way to become comfortable and we have to set it up so it's easy for him to find that 'open door.' Do you have that attitude of justice, or do you carry a predatory attitude that has a foundation of "showing the horse who is boss?"


Well, IMO, hitting, smacking, even yelling something like "stop" or "no" mimics horse behavior---horses don't let other horses find "the open door" they say "back the heck off or my back hooves are gonna go in your face" or "I told you to leave me alone, now I'm going to tell you with my teeth" and they certainly make enough noises, and not all of them are happy nickers when they see their best friends. Of course that is assuming you follow the golden rule of training, which is timing.


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

Spirithorse said:


> My perspective on the question....a lot of it comes down to attitude. I can only speak from a Parelli perspective seeing as that is the program I follow. If we have to correct a horse, we do so without any emotion. There is no "Hey!" or "Quit!" or jerking, smacking, hitting, kicking, etc. All of that is predatory behavior that does not work on prey animals. We are always offering the horse a way to become comfortable and we have to set it up so it's easy for him to find that 'open door.' Do you have that attitude of justice, or do you carry a predatory attitude that has a foundation of "showing the horse who is boss?"


Tblver


> Well, IMO, hitting, smacking, even yelling something like "stop" or "no" mimics horse behavior---horses don't let other horses find "the open door" they say "back the heck off or my back hooves are gonna go in your face" or "I told you to leave me alone, now I'm going to tell you with my teeth" and they certainly make enough noises, and not all of them are happy nickers when they see their best friends. Of course that is assuming you follow the golden rule of training, which is timing.


Thank you both for your posts.

Spirit - emotion removed, what is the difference? You correct the horse for it's mistakes and await at the response you want (in a perfect world). Ie pressure and release, ie negative reinforcement.

TB the same - negative reinforcement.

So as per my original question, what is the difference? Ie why the NH forum when actually the methods are the same?


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

Spirithorse said:


> My perspective on the question....a lot of it comes down to attitude. I can only speak from a Parelli perspective seeing as that is the program I follow. If we have to correct a horse, we do so without any emotion. There is no "Hey!" or "Quit!" or jerking, smacking, hitting, kicking, etc. All of that is predatory behavior that does not work on prey animals. We are always offering the horse a way to become comfortable and we have to set it up so it's easy for him to find that 'open door.' Do you have that attitude of justice, or do you carry a predatory attitude that has a foundation of "showing the horse who is boss?"



This is really the core of the problem in a nutshell.

I do not agree with your explanation of correction at all.

Horses have emotions and so do humans.

Emotions have nothing to do with eating vegies or meat.

I have no problem with opening doors but that also has nothing to do with my food source.

I have seen a horse straight out kill a squirrel and a goat and a dog.
I have seen a horse kill another horse.
Are they predators too?
Can they carry a predatory attitude?

People are so busy trying to separate the horse from the human and make them so different from each other that they miss the similarities.


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## palominolover (Apr 28, 2010)

Spirithorse said:


> My perspective on the question....a lot of it comes down to attitude. I can only speak from a Parelli perspective seeing as that is the program I follow. If we have to correct a horse, we do so without any emotion. There is no "Hey!" or "Quit!" or jerking, smacking, hitting, kicking, etc. All of that is predatory behavior that does not work on prey animals. We are always offering the horse a way to become comfortable and we have to set it up so it's easy for him to find that 'open door.' Do you have that attitude of justice, or do you carry a predatory attitude that has a foundation of "showing the horse who is boss?"



I'd be interested to know how you would correct a horse if you didn't smack it? =/ Because my trainers use Parelli like following what he does for groundwork, but they are very firm in discipline.


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

Doe said:


> I'd love to hear people's perspective on this question...............


Dear Doe

I wish I could direct you to a thread I made in mid-June in the Talk to The Team Section.

Wonder if there is a way to have it moved to a public area?

*How do I start a poll, and would this be acceptable?* 
Poll

Do you agree that Natural Horsemanship should be moved from the Training section to the Riding section?

I feel awkward posting to the Training Section of the forum because I am not a trainer, nor qualified to give advice. I do read most of the posts there and try to learn from them. 

I do not visit the NH section as often. I started there but quickly found most posts were about whether someone approved of or liked NH or a particular professional, that is as opposed to people just casually talking about their experiences. Whether they be low-level or more or less experienced.

The Riding Section seems to be a bit more casual, not necessarily claiming to be or asking for Trainer/Professional level advice, but rather peer level input and discussion.

There are some who will claim that it is NOT riding so does not belong in the Riding Section. That they see many who never ride their horses, or do much of anything. My feeling on that is two-fold:

First, NH is riding as well as on-line work, and off-line work. There are people who do NOT practice NH who do NOT ride their horses much if at all, also. I've boarded at 5 different barns over the many years and at each place there were a number of people who did NOT ride, or rarely get on their horses. I have never boarded at a NH type barn, although some were more friendly than others. Many of these non-riders were middle aged women, I think I'm past that now into the older category, but I do ride, and I have been middle-aged and I rode even then. 

Second, The Riding Section is broken down to Style Sections, then further into sub-forums of those. Included in the Main Sections are Showmanship and Driving. They certainly are not Riding Styles, maybe the main Section called Riding would be more aptly named Horsemanship, if it were would you be more willing to accept NH into that arena? 



Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/talk-team/how-do-i-start-poll-would-88596/#ixzz1SyBQj600

Thank you very much for your reply, in as much as other Team members hopefully will be reading and considering my request I will address what you have said. Please do not take offense.

_NH is a training method and the riding part is the result and not the means to it._

_Driving and showmanship are styles of riding as opposed to training_

I feel that Training overall is somewhat specialized. One goes to a Reining trainer if that is what they do, same for WP, English, Jumping, Dressage, Barrels, Driving, and many others. And agreeably the riding part is the result and not the means to it. Why should NH be set apart and treated differently than the others?

Further then, if the Training Section is not divided into the separate style categories, why should NH be set apart and treated differently than the others? (please note this is not what I am requesting).

Thank you for your time, courtesy, and consideration. 

Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/talk-team/how-do-i-start-poll-would-88596/#ixzz1SyBlmQxl


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

HorseSavvy said:


> Why is this section of the forum crawling with haters? So many of the posts I see in here bash NH methods. I thought this was suppossed to be a section to discuss NH? Come on, people, let's all chill out. Just because someone doesn't share your opinion on horse training doesn't give you the right to bash them or their training methods. Can we please be civilized and show a little respect for both our opinions and eachother?


Ditto..


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

Marecare said:


> This is really the core of the problem in a nutshell.
> 
> I do not agree with your explanation of correction at all.
> 
> ...


Mare care

An interesting question.
The subtle difference is in the motive. Horses can herd and horses can kill. However the difference is in the motivation.
Horses do not hunt their food. A predator by nature relies on flesh as it's food source. Horses may kill but they do not hunt. They graze.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

maura said:


> Here's my .2 cents as to why NH invites so much negative attention -
> 
> First of all, by segregating themselves from other horseman by calling themselves "Natural Horseman", thereby implying the rest of us are unnatural.
> 
> ...


 
This is perfect. Very well said, Maura. I would also add that, at least for me, I think a good bit of the argument (in my case perhaps a bit defensive?) comes from the "NH people" who strictly follow a particular clinician like he/she is a saint to be worshipped, can do no worng, and their particular "way" works on EVERY horse. I am not a fan af ANYONE who cannot see others opinions and goes around with a closed mind. This would not be most prevelant when it comes to NH, Religion and politics. lol They become almost rabid in their defense of their "god"!


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

Doe said:


> Mare care
> 
> An interesting question.
> The subtle difference is in the motive. Horses can herd and horses can kill. However the difference is in the motivation.
> Horses do not hunt their food. A predator by nature relies on flesh as it's food source. Horses may kill but they do not hunt. They graze.



I think that is a matter of semantics.

A herd of secretaries descend on the lunch buffet to graze on a big veggie plate.

Horses hunting for more nutritious and sustaining grass to fatten for winter.

Horses hunt for shelter.

People that flock together like a herd even though they don't agree with each other.

I don't kill for sport.
Does that make me a prey animal?

We are more alike than many want to consider.

I can spook at a strange shape.
I can go off my feed if I am too hot or cold or in a strange place.
I am relaxed with friends and nervous around strangers that I do not know their intentions.
I don't like being told what to do and like being asked.
My feet are sore without shoes but if I go barefoot for a month or so they toughen up.

Look of the similarities and not the differences.


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## coffeegod (May 6, 2011)

anndankev said:


> I've been feeling like and outcast thread killer here lately.
> :hide:


I thought that was my job, killing threads.

We should start a club.


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

coffeegod said:


> I thought that was my job, killing threads.
> 
> We should start a club.


 
OK, can we have our meetings someplace cool in the summer and warm in the winter?


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## coffeegod (May 6, 2011)

anndankev said:


> OK, can we have our meetings someplace cool in the summer and warm in the winter?


**** skippy, we will....Hawaii, while not really cool has a constant breeze and is balmy year 'round...sound good?


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## Equilove (Feb 21, 2011)

i don't understand why everyone thinks Parelli is a "money hungry" trainer. he has something that is obviously working for a lot of people, and the fact he _sells_ it doesn't mean a thing. he's got something going; why would you give services away for free..? same goes with any big name trainer. they're big because what they've done works for a lot of people. if you don't like it, don't buy it...


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

Do we have a smilie doing the hula?


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

The NH methods of training has enlightened many many people that the use of corporal punishment is unnecessary in working with a horse. Let us bless the people who advocate NH training.


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## Courtney (May 20, 2011)

I like the premise behind Natural Horsemanship, but maybe I don't get the full idea. To me, natural horsemanship is mimicking a horse's natural behaviors to speak to it in it's own language. A horse doesn't understand, "oh, pretty pony. Get off my foot; you're crushing it!". It understands a quick smack on the shoulder and "Over!" If Levee does something undesirable, he gets a smack on the shoulder. If he does it again, he gets sent away from the herd (me). When he drops his head and tells me he's sorry by way of licking lips and lowered muzzle, I invite him back to the herd. It sounds hokey when you explain it, but in practice, it works.

Just today, he was acting like the bratty little yearling he is. After he picked up my grooming box and flung the contents everywhere, he got a smack. When he did it a second time, I puffed myself up and sent him away, straight to the other side of his pen. Then I fixed him with a glare, still 'puffed up'. Almost immediate, his ears drooped, he lowered his muzzle to the ground and began licking. When I dropped my shoulders and turned 45 degrees away from him, he came to me with his head still low and waited for me to rub his ears and ruffle his forelock. He understands that as, "okay, I forgive you. Come back with me now". He didn't attempt to flip my grooming bucket again.

To me, that's natural horsemanship. It's not fancy branded lunge lines and whips. It's not tarps and little cones. It's about understanding a horse's language and adapting your language to communicate effectively.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

anndankev said:


> Do we have a smilie doing the hula?


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## heartprints62 (Feb 27, 2010)

Courtney said:


> I like the premise behind Natural Horsemanship, but maybe I don't get the full idea. To me, natural horsemanship is mimicking a horse's natural behaviors to speak to it in it's own language. A horse doesn't understand, "oh, pretty pony. Get off my foot; you're crushing it!". It understands a quick smack on the shoulder and "Over!" If Levee does something undesirable, he gets a smack on the shoulder. If he does it again, he gets sent away from the herd (me). When he drops his head and tells me he's sorry by way of licking lips and lowered muzzle, I invite him back to the herd. It sounds hokey when you explain it, but in practice, it works.
> 
> Just today, he was acting like the bratty little yearling he is. After he picked up my grooming box and flung the contents everywhere, he got a smack. When he did it a second time, I puffed myself up and sent him away, straight to the other side of his pen. Then I fixed him with a glare, still 'puffed up'. Almost immediate, his ears drooped, he lowered his muzzle to the ground and began licking. When I dropped my shoulders and turned 45 degrees away from him, he came to me with his head still low and waited for me to rub his ears and ruffle his forelock. He understands that as, "okay, I forgive you. Come back with me now". He didn't attempt to flip my grooming bucket again.
> 
> To me, that's natural horsemanship. It's not fancy branded lunge lines and whips. It's not tarps and little cones. *It's about understanding a horse's language and adapting your language to communicate effectively*.


I think your examples are perfect! To me, this is exactly what TRUE natural horsemanship is about, communication, exactly as you have stated. 

I think a lot of the basics get lost in the "glitter of the lights" so to speak. Many, many people see one thing they don't agree with completely and they are totally against that trainer or that set of ideas instead of listening to the message in its entirety. We are all capable of making rational decisions based upon what we think is right, just that some people form an opinion without learning "the rest of the story". 

I also agree with all the times it has been stated before: NO trainer has all the answers, and a good trainer has a little bit from EVERYONE mixed into a program that works best for him/her.


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## WhosJackedUp (Jul 22, 2011)

I agree! I believe theres good and bad to both but the overpriced 'gadgets' are to irritating! Horses are exspensive enough. So what do people do when they have an issue with their horse and can't afford the 'gadgets' some people need to be a little more old school and just focus on training the horse not these gadgets and debates over NH methods or other programs. every horse is different and so is every trainer 



Golden Horse said:


> You see this kind of comment is where the problems start maybe, from both sides..
> 
> If they aren't buying the gadgets then the true PP people will say that they aren't really following the program.
> 
> I don't have an issue with true NH methods, I do have an issue with overpriced gadgets, and I do have an issue with both sides who say that theirs is the only way.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Doe said:


> I'd love to hear people's perspective on this question...............


There is no difference IMHO. Good horsemanship is just what it is - good horsemanship.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Well, I just bought a Parelli book today. I have never read him, only watched a few videos. And I have a slight negative feeling toward him due to seeing some not so favorable videos of his wife, and meeting some folks who are locked into playing "games" and cant' progress to the actual riding. So, I have only based my opinion on a limited source and when I saw the book, I thought I shall try to give it a go.

But for me, it's the way these clinicians systematize things and rename things (like games and such) . It requires way too much energy to learn because it's like learning a whole new language. You go to all that effort to learn it, only to find out that they are discribing a simple disengagement of the hindquarters , but in THEIR language. This very use of a special language and set of terms for movements that do not belong to them per se, sets them apart into an US and Them mentality. I think this contributes to feelings of defensiveness and hostility from both "sides".


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

coffeegod said:


> I thought that was my job, killing threads.
> 
> We should start a club.


Lol! No, follks, we don't need threads killing here. Especially the good ones.


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

Saddlebag said:


> The NH methods of training has enlightened many many people that the use of corporal punishment is unnecessary in working with a horse. *Let us bless the people who advocate NH training*.


The bold is where we start dividing. Your simple statement is enough to be offensive. In that short statement, you said much. On the negative side, it could easily come across as "If you aren't doing NH, you are doing it WRONG! and if you aren't doing NH, you are beating your horse". 

*shrug* Perception is a bee with an itch.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

> The NH methods of training has enlightened many many people that the use of corporal punishment is unnecessary in working with a horse. Let us bless the people who advocate NH training.


This is *exactly* what I was referring to in my previous post. The attitude of NH as separate, apart and superior to plain, old good horsemanship. It's offensive and it's what creates the negative backlash. 

Let's examine the implications in tha language here. First of all NH = enlightenment. Really? Anyone who does anything else with their horses is unenlightened? Or it's impossible to be an enlightened horseman without NH? 

"...that corporal punishment is unneccesary..." No one ever came to this conclusion on their own without the benefit of NH? We were all senselessly beating our horses into submission until NH came along and "enlightened" us? 
Every good horsemen's journey is *away* from force and coercion whether they call themselves NH or not.

"Let us bless the people who advocate NH training." By that, do you mean, the people who agree with you or the people who follow your particular practitioner? Or all the good horseman through the centuries who have used the same principles but didn't or don't label themselves NH? I suspect the former, because the latter is a very, very large group that doesn't attempt to be separate, apart and special.


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## HowClever (Feb 16, 2010)

My belief is that there is no such thing as 'natural horsemanship'. There is good horsemanship and bad horsemanship. There is common sense and there is foolishness. The worst thing I believe any horseperson can do is to lock on to one particular method like a dog with a come. No matter what the marketing tells you there is no one method that works for every single horse. You can not take the varied personalities of horses and come up with something that works for them all. Why not collect tools from everywhere so when the time comes you can simply reach for right response without wondering whether your chosen response fits within the constraints of a particular method.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Buckcherry (Nov 18, 2010)

I have been around horses for 16 years. I have seen horses trained with traditional methods mostly up until recently when I found a trainer who practices CA I can honestly say that his methods work way better than traditional. My two year old was crazy when we send him there and in two weeks she turned him around with CA. And I believe it works on all horses not just QH she's trained all different breeds including my TB. I don't like parelli because he doesn't explain things clearly and I've seen him use a spur to get a horse out of his space and poke it in the face.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

I despise the holier-than-thou attitudes, the idea that anyone who doesn't follow their particuar demi-god is wrong, and the superior air of the fanatical followers. Sounds a lot like religion at its worst, doesn't it? :?

When you start demeaning others for what they do and how they do it, you've lost me. If Parelli, Anderson, Lyons, Gawani Pony Boy, et. al methods work for _you_, then fine. Just don't try and tell me what I'm doing is 'wrong', 'inhumane', 'abusive', or whatever idiocy of the day your guru has come up with, and you're just vomiting out like a mindless minion.

If you can't think for yourselves and take a little bit of initiative to find out what works and what doesn't for _each individual horse_, then you're no better than an automaton who doesn't understand the methods, since you're merely parroting them without any true idea of_ why_ they do or don't work.

Not so much the other NH trainers, but the Parellis are all about telling their followers that they're better, more enlightened, and superior to people who don't buy into their circus act. _That's_ the problem I have with the Parellis, not the training methods that they've just spit shined and put new names on to make them 'fun'.


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

I had to skip over all the rest of the posters because maura summed up everything!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Buckcherry (Nov 18, 2010)

I'm not saying that it will work for everyone or that everyone 
Should use it. I was just saying that for me traditional ways weren't working and CA has helped a lot.
Because I was one of those people who were taught how to ride but the instructor never took the time to explain things as far as why we do certain things. I was never taught how to teach a horse to disengage his hind quarters or te8ach them to side pass I just knew how to ask for it on a horse that was already taught and I didnt know any better and now in my 20s I'm learning how to train a horse and thats why I like CA because he explains things step by step and give u a reason for why u teach it.


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

kitten_Val said:


> There is no difference IMHO. Good horsemanship is just what it is - good horsemanship.


Bingo. For me it's not NH vs old school, I'm middle of the road. Try to be as soft as I can be but as hard as they need me to be. It's about finding what works for each individual horse, pulling good things from varied sources and doing what works for you & that particular animal. Common sense horsemanship folks, that's what we should all be practicing instead of arguing over who's right and wrong. We all want the same thing in the end, a willing 4 legged partner. The road to get there isn't going to be the same for every horse, so following a particular method may work for some but it will not work for all. 

I will say I have a big problem with the over marketing of NH trainers, but I have issue with DVD training in general though. You can't learn from RFD-TV or a DVD what you can get from spending a lifetime working with horses and being around those that have done so as well. I get a lot of horses in to fix that have been started by new horse owners because they watched this or that dvd, regardless of training style horses get screwed up in inexperienced hands. That's my biggest problem, marketing to those who have no business training horses but I guess I shouldn't complain as it's income for me when they need fixed.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Buckcherry said:


> I was just saying that for me traditional ways weren't working and CA has helped a lot.


What do you mean by "traditional ways"?

BTW, I did use CA ground work in past on my mares and it surely helped with one (and wasn't a way to go with other).


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

I am a bit confused.
What I know of Clinton Anderson I am not aware of him laying ANY claim of being a NH practitioner.

I don't think he uses that terminology at all.

I could be very wrong here but I have never heard or seen the claim at all yet he is constantly mixed in with people that do claim to be.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Marecare said:


> I am a bit confused.
> What I know of Clinton Anderson I am not aware of him laying ANY claim of being a NH practitioner.
> 
> I don't think he uses that terminology at all.
> ...


I never actually paid any attention to who claims self to be NH trainer. But who DOES claim then? PP? Others?


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

Marecare said:


> I am a bit confused.
> What I know of Clinton Anderson I am not aware of him laying ANY claim of being a NH practitioner.
> 
> I don't think he uses that terminology at all.
> ...


Marecare 

See my thread about CA and PP.
Whether he claims to be or not, his techniques are identical to all the other NH practitioners. Therefore he is.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Doe said:


> Mare care
> 
> Horses may kill but they do not hunt. They graze.


You need to tell this to my neighbors dog. My horses will hunt her down just to watch her shake in fear of them. They love seeing animals coming into their area. Most do not leave.


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> You need to tell this to my neighbors dog. My horses will hunt her down just to watch her shake in fear of them. They love seeing animals coming into their area. Most do not leave.


I repeat. Horses may kill. They do not hunt. There is a difference. However once again in some respects we are seeing *******isation of a species via domestication.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Doe said:


> I repeat. Horses may kill. They do not hunt. There is a difference.


I think it all depends on what everyone means by "hunt". :wink: When my horses chase dogs/other animals off the property I also call it "hunt". However they don't "hunt" to feed themselves, but rather to kill.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Doe said:


> I repeat. Horses may kill. They do not hunt. There is a difference. However once again in some respects we are seeing *******isation of a species via domestication.



I have hunted since I was 4. I know hunting. My horses will HUNT the neighbors dogs or really any animal that they do not want in their area.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Doe said:


> I repeat. Horses may kill. They do not hunt. There is a difference. ...


I suspect the difference is immaterial to the kill-ee.

I had 3 horses, and now have 2. Why? Well, largely because the smallest mare and gelding hated each other, and I was tired of trying to keep them separated in the space I had available. And yes, hate is the right word to use. The small mare would provoke the gelding to the point of attacking him if he didn't respond. When he responded, it was a question of if he could catch her. Mix all three, and the larger mare (Mia) spent much of her time keeping the other two apart.

Mia, meanwhile, was available to buy because SHE wasn't willing to get along with some other horses. She had been donated to a charity & bought, but she refused to submit to a 1500 lb gelding. She dropped from 900 lb down to 750 lb, and was still willing to fight...so she was returned for fear someone would be killed (probably her).

Horse society isn't all butterfly farts and unicorn snot. Horses can be mean and even cruel and hateful to each other. That doesn't mean we need to beat the snot out of them, but it does mean that it is natural to use force in communicating with them.


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## Buckcherry (Nov 18, 2010)

Kitten val


> What do you mean by "traditional ways"?


Well now that i have to think about it I don't think our other trainer really had a technique. We ground drove him and got him used to the saddle and started with laying over him and all that and it wasn't working and I see now why it wasn't. He was absoutly disrespectful and would run you over in a heart beat. Me and my trainer new nothing and he didnt respect us one bit. LOL Live and learn.

Basically I knew nothing about training a horse and I wanted to know more. I found a new trainer who just happens to use CA and it really works for us and by no means do I see any abuse or cruelity from it. 

To each their own.. What works for me may not work for others and people sometimes need to realize that not everyone is going to agree with their technique. Everyone has a different opinion on what is abuse and what isn't..

But like others have said I don't think CA claims to be a natural horseman...


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> I never actually paid any attention to who claims self to be NH trainer. But who DOES claim then? PP? Others?



There are several that proudly wear the crest of "Natural Horsmanship" and of course PP kind of invented the term.

There are many that do NOT call what they do by that term.

Buck Brannaman ,Curt Pate, and Mark Rashid do not use the term at all that I am aware of.

It does not matter if the techniques are similar as that is the very point of the thread.

Someone is making the distinction when there really isn't one to begin with.

Is a rose a rose by any other name?


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

nrhareiner said:


> You need to tell this to my neighbors dog. My horses will hunt her down just to watch her shake in fear of them. They love seeing animals coming into their area. Most do not leave.


The concept of hunting is not exclusive to man and predators.
All species hunt for food.

All species attempt to protect their area for safety and security.
Many find comfort in numbers (herd) including man.

A hungry man gives little thought to killing a rabbit for dinner and a horse will not give a second thought to destroying a stand of corn for a snack.

Yes I believe that there are basic instinctual responses that are hard wired into a horse but they are in us also.

A dog is mans best friend but put them into a pack and don't feed them for a week and see how much of a friend he is.

All species make deals with each other.


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## AmazinCaucasian (Dec 10, 2010)

Dear Natural Horse People,

What's with all the haters? is a loaded question. Not surprised it's gotten so many responses. 

I hate them because they're like the guy that goes to church every Sunday and LOVES to make you feel bad for being somewhere else. I'm still waiting for an NH representative to knock on my door handing out literature on it. (I do go to church sometimes) They just think they have to shove the "Natural" philosophy down our throats. Yes, I'm glad Parelli taught you how to "cause" your horse to not bite. My method works too, It's faster but not as humane. 

I like to ride. I don't enjoy playing games with my horses. If I ever become too fat to ride or too scared to ride, maybe I'll buy Monte Robert's book or Parelli's video collection. Then I'll learn how to "join up" and "hook on" and feel all cuddly and special knowing my horse trusts me and will foller me anywhere.

Until then, Just let us run-of-the-mill solid horsemen use our horses for the things they're intended to do. We don't solicit our training philosophies on you unless you ask. Thanks


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## nobody2121 (Sep 6, 2010)

HorseSavvy said:


> Why is this section of the forum crawling with haters? So many of the posts I see in here bash NH methods. I thought this was suppossed to be a section to discuss NH? Come on, people, let's all chill out. Just because someone doesn't share your opinion on horse training doesn't give you the right to bash them or their training methods. Can we please be civilized and show a little respect for both our opinions and eachother?


 Great question, why all the haters? I will say it has toned down a bit from say a year ago. have fun


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Marecare said:


> The concept of hunting is not exclusive to man and predators.
> All species hunt for food.
> 
> All species attempt to protect their area for safety and security.
> ...


My point is that my horses will HUNT a dog or any animal that comes anywhere close to the property. If the animal gets into their area the will hunt it down well they will kill it if it does not leave their area. They will act just like a pack of Lionesses hunting a pray animal. Quit interesting to watch them work. They do not seem to do the same thing to the smaller dogs and rabbits though. However they will do it to mice.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Marecare said:


> Buck Brannaman ,Curt Pate, and Mark Rashid do not use the term at all that I am aware of.


I'm not very familiar with Curt and Mark I must confess (although heard about them), but I have videos by Buck. He's what he is - *good* horseman. I don't think he needs any extra-titles on top of it anyway.


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## HorseSavvy (Mar 15, 2009)

AmazinCaucasian said:


> Dear Natural Horse People,
> 
> What's with all the haters? is a loaded question. Not surprised it's gotten so many responses.
> 
> ...


See, this is what I have an issue with. Just because some people do flaunt NH as the only way doesn't give you the right to condemn every single one. I am by no means a NH trainer. I just believe everyone deserves to have a space to discuss training techniques, so I decided to address all the people who come to this section just to discredit a certain style of training. If anyone hates it, then they can do their own thing, no one's forcing them to read this section.


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## Buckcherry (Nov 18, 2010)

> If anyone hates it, then they can do their own thing, no one's forcing them to read this section


 :thumbsup:


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Doe said:


> I repeat. Horses may kill. They do not hunt. There is a difference. However once again in some respects we are seeing *******isation of a species via domestication.


**** what are you smoking?


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

I follow Clinton Anderson for two reasons #1 because he is imo hot and 2 because he makes sense in what he says and how he goes about doing things then I also love Chris Cox because he's down to earth and right down to business in his methods. I hate Parelli dunno why I just do. As for "gadgets" I have bought 2 sets of Clintons rope halter lead and the whip why because I feel his halter is superior to any other rope halter on the market. I'm for what ever method gets my horse where I need it to be.


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## Shadomoon (Jul 15, 2011)

I think those that said there is good horsemanship and bad horsemanship sum it up. That being said, I have zero tolerance for anyone taking a hand to my horse. There is a huge difference for me between training and abuse, however I do not think hitting a horse is training. However I've learned that I'm not going to tell anyone how to work with their animal. Who am I to judge someone else just because I view differently than they do? The same is true both ways.

I think everything has to do with communication and bonding. But I also think people that don't take the time to learn to communicate or bond are missing out on the full potential of the horse/rider relationship. But, again, I'm not going to tell anyone what to do. It goes the same with barefoot trimming and farriers, english and western, mares and geldings/stallions, we will always differ on something so we shouldn't jam it down each others' throats.

That being said, abuse is another thing all together. But as long as your horse is happy and healthy then who am I to tell you what to do, right?

But if you raise a hand to my horse, that is another thing all together. I had a farrier do it and a vet do it, they got the heck out of dodge real quick.


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## Mythilus (Aug 16, 2010)

Here I am, the middle-of-the-roader.
I have two very good friends who use Parelli methods and have succeeded. I have also seen novices or tunnel-visioned people use it and fail. I have used so-called "natural horsemanship" on a racehorse who was unruly and out of control, taught him to respect me. The same method did not work on another horse and I had to use smacking, etc to get through to him. It all depends on horse and human. I do know people locked into "games" and I know people who have progressed to riding in NH. I also know horses who have come from supposed NH trainer/owners/riders and be emotional wrecks. I think everyone needs to check and DOUBLE-check what they are doing is going to end in a positive way. I am not saying either way of training is good, I'm not saying its bad, I am saying DO WHAT WORKS FOR YOU AND YOUR HORSE! And don't bash others for their different ways.


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> My point is that my horses will HUNT a dog or any animal that comes anywhere close to the property. If the animal gets into their area the will hunt it down well they will kill it if it does not leave their area. They will act just like a pack of Lionesses hunting a pray animal. Quit interesting to watch them work. They do not seem to do the same thing to the smaller dogs and rabbits though. However they will do it to mice.


Indeed horses will kill, especially in defence (whether that be physical or territorial if they feel able) The matter of predation however is different, and again distorted by domestication. In fact it is interesting to consider the structure of the herd. Horse herds as I am writing in my current paper, are actually not as tightly knit as many predatory packs.

Perhaps it is due to the difference in 'need'. Horses really only need each other for procreation and safety in numbers. They demonstrate 'friendship' etc, (if we can call it that for simplicity) but in small groups. Having a greater sized herd means less chance of being singled out. It also means more eyes looking out, and more confusion for the predator when they all move. Horses do not need help to find food however.

On the other hand many pack animals cannot realistically hunt alone, or it is more efficient for them not to. Hence they need to be together as a group from a different perspective to that of horses, and that difference controls the dynamics.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Shadomoon said:


> I think those that said there is good horsemanship and bad horsemanship sum it up. That being said, I have zero tolerance for anyone taking a hand to my horse. There is a huge difference for me between training and abuse, however I do not think hitting a horse is training. However I've learned that I'm not going to tell anyone how to work with their animal. Who am I to judge someone else just because I view differently than they do? The same is true both ways.
> 
> I think everything has to do with communication and bonding. But I also think people that don't take the time to learn to communicate or bond are missing out on the full potential of the horse/rider relationship. But, again, I'm not going to tell anyone what to do. It goes the same with barefoot trimming and farriers, english and western, mares and geldings/stallions, we will always differ on something so we shouldn't jam it down each others' throats.
> 
> ...


The comment about the vet and farrier bugged me esp the farrier as an owner its OUR responsibility to make sure our horses are behaved these people put enough strain on their bodies work long hours for not alot of pay the shouldnt have to deal with an unruly horse on top of that the should be able t protect them selves from a horse falling on them kicking ect. If my horses acted up I'd ask him to step back and I' work the tar out of said horse until it figured standing still was their idea. A good farrier is really hard to come by we must keep the ones we find.


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## Shadomoon (Jul 15, 2011)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> The comment about the vet and farrier bugged me esp the farrier as an owner its OUR responsibility to make sure our horses are behaved these people put enough strain on their bodies work long hours for not alot of pay the shouldnt have to deal with an unruly horse on top of that the should be able t protect them selves from a horse falling on them kicking ect. If my horses acted up I'd ask him to step back and I' work the tar out of said horse until it figured standing still was their idea. A good farrier is really hard to come by we must keep the ones we find.


I had a vet "punch" my mare in that nice sweet spot between the neck and shoulder because she wouldn't trot in a straight line (due to a pain issue, which was why he was out there in the first place). Do you think I should have "worked the tar out of her" because she was in pain? And the farrier repeatedly smacked my gelding in the face because he'd put his head down and look at what the farrier was doing. Again do you think he needed the tar worked out of him? These are not "bad and unruly" things in my book. So please don't judge based on my comment before you know the story. And while I do agree that vets and farriers/trimmers work long hours and shouldn't have to deal with unruly horse, they will have to all the time. They don't need to resort to smacking a horse that isn't theirs to get it to listen. They should say, "This horse is being too much can you do something about it" and if the owner still doesn't know what is going on, maybe then they could ASK if they can work with it. But this was not the case for me and I think any OWNER would be upset in my situation.

That being said, I tip my barefoot trimmer extra because she sometimes has to deal with my gelding leaning on her or my other gelding needing to put his legs down (he is older and has arthritis) so it takes longer to do him, but she doesn't hit my horse and doesn't get mad at them. And while she always tells me I don't need to tip her, I plan on keeping her around for awhile and would hate for her to get upset one day. She doesn't hit my gelding for looking at what she is doing. And she doesn't hit my old man for needing to put his leg down. While I agree these are big animals and they can take some things, both of my horses (my mare and gelding with the stories above) were abused by people. My gelding so bad he had open wounds on his face when he came home and at that time I was trying to build his trust in people back up. So a farrier smacking his face for being interested is enough for me to flip my lid let alone run him off the farm. My horse's mental health means too much to me to ignore.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Shadomoon said:


> I had a vet "punch" my mare in that nice sweet spot between the neck and shoulder because she wouldn't trot in a straight line (due to a pain issue, which was why he was out there in the first place). Do you think I should have "worked the tar out of her" because she was in pain? And the farrier repeatedly smacked my gelding in the face because he'd put his head down and look at what the farrier was doing. Again do you think he needed the tar worked out of him? These are not "bad and unruly" things in my book. So please don't judge based on my comment before you know the story. And while I do agree that vets and farriers/trimmers work long hours and shouldn't have to deal with unruly horse, they will have to all the time. They don't need to resort to smacking a horse that isn't theirs to get it to listen. They should say, "This horse is being too much can you do something about it" and if the owner still doesn't know what is going on, maybe then they could ASK if they can work with it. But this was not the case for me and I think any OWNER would be upset in my situation.
> 
> That being said, I tip my barefoot trimmer extra because she sometimes has to deal with my gelding leaning on her or my other gelding needing to put his legs down (he is older and has arthritis) so it takes longer to do him, but she doesn't hit my horse and doesn't get mad at them. And while she always tells me I don't need to tip her, I plan on keeping her around for awhile and would hate for her to get upset one day. She doesn't hit my gelding for looking at what she is doing. And she doesn't hit my old man for needing to put his leg down. While I agree these are big animals and they can take some things, both of my horses (my mare and gelding with the stories above) were abused by people. My gelding so bad he had open wounds on his face when he came home and at that time I was trying to build his trust in people back up. So a farrier smacking his face for being interested is enough for me to flip my lid let alone run him off the farm. My horse's mental health means too much to me to ignore.


What I am reading is alot of excuses for lack of training imho just because a horse was abused is not a reason to amend for bad behavior I have had abused horses I have rescued several all are expected to behave in a way that is safe for the handler and the person working on or with them .


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## Shadomoon (Jul 15, 2011)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> What I am reading is alot of excuses for lack of training imho just because a horse was abused is not a reason to amend for bad behavior I have had abused horses I have rescued several all are expected to behave in a way that is safe for the handler and the person working on or with them .


You think a horse turning to look at the farrier as he is trimming is a bad behavior?!? Horses are naturally curious. How is this not safe? I encourage him to be curious with people, and now he is extremely friendly with people who he would shake if they got near him before. So I guess my not beating on him for looking at he farrier has worked...

Also a horse with a sore (three legged lame) leg isn't going to trot in a always trot in a straight line (why the vet wanted her to trot is beyond me) so again I don't see where hitting a already in pain horse is right. I also don't see how this is an excuse for bad behavior.

My gelding with joint issues needs to rest his leg from time to time, every vet that has seen him said it will be likely due to where the issue is. But yet you consider THAT bad behavior? He doesn't move a muscle, but after about 5 minutes of his hind leg in the air he will shift to let you know it is starting to be sore. So this is bad. I'm suppose to make him tolerate it. Say "suck it up," I don't care if you are sore, you are suppose to behave in this manner because you are the horse and I'm the rider. Should I hit him next time?

I want to know your training secrets because apparently I'm doing it wrong compared to you. I honestly would NEVER tell you how to work your horse but I'm shocked that this is bad behavior and would love to know what you'd do in this situation so maybe I can try it sometime and give you the results.


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## Eolith (Sep 30, 2007)

tinyliny said:


> But for me, it's the way these clinicians systematize things and rename things (like games and such) . It requires way too much energy to learn because it's like learning a whole new language. You go to all that effort to learn it, only to find out that they are discribing a simple disengagement of the hindquarters , but in THEIR language. This very use of a special language and set of terms for movements that do not belong to them per se, sets them apart into an US and Them mentality. I think this contributes to feelings of defensiveness and hostility from both "sides".


THIS!

I was recently looking at a few possible places to board. I stopped by a Parelli worshipper's facility. Don't get me wrong... I'm perfectly willing to coexist with the natural horsemen, but she was clearly very defensive. She practically expected me to disagree with her the entire time and took on a holier-than-thou attitude, making all sorts of (wrong wrong wrong) assumptions about how I treated my horses.

Part of what attracted me to her facility was the fact that it had a covered arena (a necessity here in dreary western WA). However I was disappointed to find that she had nearly half of the arena blocked off for the storage of an RV and other misc items. I sadly observed the oddly shaped space left over for actual work with horses, and politely asked if she knew how much riding area there was.

She seemed baffled that I would want to know, and I explained to her that I was accustomed to riding in arenas with space for a minimum of three twenty meter circles, otherwise known as a standard dressage arena. Suddenly the light bulb went on and she said to me, 'Oh! I was at a Parelli clinic and we called those Precision Arenas!'

Out of practically all of the time there, and all of her thinly veiled implications about how poorly my horses must be treated... this is what got under my skin the most.


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## Shadomoon (Jul 15, 2011)

Eolith said:


> Out of practically all of the time there, and all of her thinly veiled implications about how poorly my horses must be treated... this is what got under my skin the most.


This is what bothers me the most about horse people, not just about NH or not NH people. It is common everywhere. You don't use this method, you don't ride with this brand of saddle, you don't use this farrier/trainer/vet/etc. 

I don't think it is right for any of us to judge someone based on such little information. Now if I go to someone's farm and there are emaciated scarred horses in the pasture maybe I'll jump to conclusions, but my first thought may be "are those recent rescues?" But how many others would call the animal wardens first? We are so quick to judge others, and coming from competing with dogs I always say, "What you don't see with your eyes don't invent with your mouth." And my favorite is "Believe half of what you see and none of what you hear."


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

I never heard anything called Natural Horsemanship until fairly recently. It sort of reminds me of the Operant Conditioning Positive Reinforcement movement in dog training. It is a training technique based on timing and reward with punishment being of a non-corporal nature. 

Here is my take.. I will use all the tools in my tool box to get a horse trained to be a reliable mount. If he is a rehab project or an unbroken horse, I have the tools. 

I also know, from extensive reading, that cruel techniques to train horses have been around _forever_. Any piece of equipment can be turned into a torture device.. but a wise trainer will not torture a horse because it sets training BACK. 

Here is the thing.. if you are given a horse to train there is usually a level of expectation to be achieved in a certain time frame (60 days, 90 days, 120 days and so forth). If kissing the horse under the tail will get him trained, I will do it. It matters not to me WHO endorses the method.. as long as the horse comes out the other end with the goals of training achieved.

I also know that if you get 10 horse trainers in a room and two tell you how to teach a horse to trot under saddle, they probably won't agree and the other 8 trainers in the room will all tell them why they are doing it all wrong! 

What bothers me in the Dog training Positive Reinforcement Operant conditioning movement and what I have seen in the NH movement is the almost Religous Zealousness with which its proponents push it. 

Meanwhile, I have had the pleasure of watching some REALLY good trainers and in the end the ones who train at the higher levels that are NH proponents and those who train using other methods often cannot be told apart.

IOW's good training is just that.. good training.. and the horse will tell you if it is or is not by the outcome.


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## Buckcherry (Nov 18, 2010)

I have no problem with people using different training techniques because not everything works for everyone. 

What I do have a problem with is people being to soft with their horses and think that everything is cute. Heres an example this one boarder owns a QH who she grooms for hours on end. As time goes on he gets more irritated and more irrititated. He begins to kick out at her and actually kicked the brush out of her hand and what does she do she pets him and says "junior its ok whats wrong" never once correcting him and as time passes he starts pinning his ears and violently biting at her. And yet the same reaction from the owner "oh its ok honey." 

I was for sure I was going to have to call an ambulance because she was going to get seriously hurt.

People have to realize that horses are big and they aren't like little kittens are puppies you can get seriously hurt if your horse doesn't respect you as their leader. And I'm not talking about beating them there are other ways to get their respect and trust.


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## Shadomoon (Jul 15, 2011)

Elana said:


> Any piece of equipment can be turned into a torture device..


No truer words have ever been said! 

And no bit, lead rope, saddle, etc is going to save you if your horse is really in a frenzy. These are big animals and they can kill you if they wanted. Babying them is not good for you or the animal. But it is also why I look so highly to a bond as I know if my horse wanted he could run right through my hackamore and take for a ride. But his trust in me is equal to the trust I have in him.


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

Shadomoon said:


> You think a horse turning to look at the farrier as he is trimming is a bad behavior?!? Horses are naturally curious. How is this not safe? I encourage him to be curious with people, and now he is extremely friendly with people who he would shake if they got near him before. So I guess my not beating on him for looking at he farrier has worked...
> 
> Also a horse with a sore (three legged lame) leg isn't going to trot in a always trot in a straight line (why the vet wanted her to trot is beyond me) so again I don't see where hitting a already in pain horse is right. I also don't see how this is an excuse for bad behavior.
> 
> ...


Shadomoon some people like to troll.....just ignore it! Nobody else but you knows the circumstances and it doesn't sound like bad behaviour to me. You explained it very clearly.

Sure vets and carriers shouldn't have to deal with dangerous horses but then that's upto them to walk away if thats the case. At the same time I have seen many farriers with little concept of how to correctly support the horse and then wonder why it fidgets or cannot balance.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

HorseSavvy said:


> Why is this section of the forum crawling with haters? So many of the posts I see in here bash NH methods. I thought this was suppossed to be a section to discuss NH? Come on, people, let's all chill out. Just because someone doesn't share your opinion on horse training doesn't give you the right to bash them or their training methods. Can we please be civilized and show a little respect for both our opinions and eachother?


Maura answered this question perfectly.

I will add that it is ironic that we from time to time get these threads where the NH people have a snit fit because the 'outsiders' (that is the people who do not follow their particular guru) are mean to them, but those same NH people have no issue going to any training thread and stomping their feet that their way is the only way and how dare others do anything else, etc.
Respect is a two way street.
If you want the 'outsiders' to respect your training technique then you might want to consider respecting theirs. 
In a thread asking for training advice offer up your game/idea/technique/tool with out proclaiming how evil everyone else is.




franknbeans said:


> This is perfect. Very well said, Maura. I would also add that, at least for me, I think a good bit of the argument (in my case perhaps a bit defensive?) comes from the "NH people" who strictly follow a particular clinician like he/she is a saint to be worshipped, can do no worng, and their particular "way" works on EVERY horse. I am not a fan af ANYONE who cannot see others opinions and goes around with a closed mind. This would not be most prevelant when it comes to NH, Religion and politics. lol They become almost rabid in their defense of their "god"!


Totally agree.


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

Buckcherry said:


> I have no problem with people using different training techniques because not everything works for everyone.
> 
> What I do have a problem with is people being to soft with their horses and think that everything is cute. Heres an example this one boarder owns a QH who she grooms for hours on end. As time goes on he gets more irritated and more irrititated. He begins to kick out at her and actually kicked the brush out of her hand and what does she do she pets him and says "junior its ok whats wrong" never once correcting him and as time passes he starts pinning his ears and violently biting at her. And yet the same reaction from the owner "oh its ok honey."
> 
> ...


Or we could ask the reverse question....why is she insisting on grooming the horse for hours on end in the first place, and why is she not paying attention to the horses signals?


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Doe said:


> Shadomoon some people like to troll.....just ignore it! Nobody else but you knows the circumstances and it doesn't sound like bad behaviour to me. You explained it very clearly.
> 
> Sure vets and carriers shouldn't have to deal with dangerous horses but then that's upto them to walk away if thats the case. At the same time I have seen many farriers with little concept of how to correctly support the horse and then wonder why it fidgets or cannot balance.


**** troll? thinking the whole stones and glass houses thing. Our horse behavior is an indicator of ourselves. I call it as I see it if thats a troll then so be it.


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## Shadomoon (Jul 15, 2011)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> Our horse behavior is an indicator of ourselves.


I agree. My gelding came to me abused, neglected, and scarred. Now he is outgoing, barely has a spook to him, and will trust most people. I think that is a real reflection of my personality. As well as how little I have to discipline him. 

The problem with you telling it "like it is" isn't that you are allowed to voice your opinion, it is that you have no experience within the situation to have a justified voice. Which is just fine, I started off that way in dogs. At some point it makes sense. I don't think you are a troll, but I do think that, in my situation, you need to take a step back and not force your ideals or your position on others. And get a full grasp of the situation before you bash someone else. I can tell you, my horse isn't a competition pony, he probably doesn't have as much training as some, but I don't need to make excuses for his behavior. I don't have to "get on him" to do what I ask. I can ask once. And if him looking at the trimmer is so horrible, then I'd rather him horrible. I can live with his issues, I am not asking you to. I can assure you, I take no crap from him but there is a reason that even my one trainer couldn't ride him. He is a one person horse and I'm his person. So if you'd like to judge me based on his "looking at the farrier" then go for it, but I can honestly say, you aren't going to bother me one bit; the reason I decided to justify myself to you was to give you some insight, take as me trying to spread some education with no harm intended. I know I have a good behaved horse for the most part. He isn't 100% perfect, but when he does "act up" it takes a glance of a finger to get him to stop. I wish all horses were that way don't you? 

Besides our horses do not "misbehave" they just do what is natural to them. You cannot blame the horse for the rider's mistakes. In dogs, rarely does the dog make a mistake, it is usually the handler. Same is true in horses. So believe me, I don't need to make an excuse for my horse, he is fine the way he is. And while I make a lot of mistakes on a regular basis, I don't think allowing him the freedom to be curious and the protection of a "mother" is a mistake in the least bit.


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## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

People see what they want to see. It's that simple. Who is right, who is wrong? Does it matter? 
We will each do what WE think is "right" for OUR horses. While I have my own opinions on the NH folks, it doesn't make their method right or wrong. It just makes it right or wrong for Me and Rascal. And in the end, that is the "method" I'll use. The one that works on my crazy, lovable, spoiled rotten, smart as a whip, pushy, perfect horse. 
I have watched loads of videos, read a slew of books, and spent more time online looking for answers than I care to think of. The one thing that has worked for me is using my mind, Rascals personality, and some common sense to train him. Sometimes you see something and the light goes on, "OMG why didn't I think of that before?" Then others, you'll laugh and go "Not in this lifetime, he'd have a COW!" 
SO maybe NH has a place...maybe not. It always has been and always will be up to the PIC to decide how/if/why any method is used to train their horse. 
While I can't agree with some of the methods, I have learned some things from other people. Now do I want those same folks telling me "You're ruining that horse!" Ummm H**L NO. Do I want one of the practitioners, of any "method", in my face, preaching at how I am psychologically messing up my horse? I don't think they'd want to try, at least not more than once:wink:
So, does this make me a hater? Not IMO.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

Shadomoon said:


> I had a vet "punch" my mare in that nice sweet spot between the neck and shoulder because she wouldn't trot in a straight line (due to a pain issue, which was why he was out there in the first place). Do you think I should have "worked the tar out of her" because she was in pain? And the farrier repeatedly smacked my gelding in the face because he'd put his head down and look at what the farrier was doing. Again do you think he needed the tar worked out of him? These are not "bad and unruly" things in my book. So please don't judge based on my comment before you know the story. And while I do agree that vets and farriers/trimmers work long hours and shouldn't have to deal with unruly horse, they will have to all the time. They don't need to resort to smacking a horse that isn't theirs to get it to listen. They should say, "This horse is being too much can you do something about it" and if the owner still doesn't know what is going on, maybe then they could ASK if they can work with it. But this was not the case for me and I think any OWNER would be upset in my situation.


The vet was out of line on that one but I can understand the farrier. They get bit A LOT on their backs, it starts out with the horse merely sniffing them, then takes a chunck out of them! He was just trying to get the horses teeth away from him (wether your horse was going to bite him or not)



Shadomoon said:


> This is what bothers me the most about horse people, not just about NH or not NH people. It is common everywhere. You don't use this method, you don't ride with this brand of saddle, you don't use this farrier/trainer/vet/etc.
> 
> I don't think it is right for any of us to judge someone based on such little information. Now if I go to someone's farm and there are emaciated scarred horses in the pasture maybe I'll jump to conclusions, but my first thought may be "are those recent rescues?" But how many others would call the animal wardens first? We are so quick to judge others, and coming from competing with dogs I always say, "What you don't see with your eyes don't invent with your mouth." And my favorite is "Believe half of what you see and none of what you hear."


People can say the same about you. Some people might think you are too soft on your horses or don't train your horses well enough.

The topic was about training. Not about if the horse was sore. We always encourage people rule out pain from any problem they are having with their horses. 

If your horse was simply looking at the farrier, no that is not a problem (biting is though).

If your horse is sore for being in a postion for too long and needs a break or he might fall / lean on farrier. That isn't a training problem, it's a pain problem.

Personally, My Opinion is - I would rather have a trainer be a little to hard on a horse than to soft. When a horse isn't properly disaplined that is how dangerous behaviors start. I am NOT saying it's all fine and dandy to beat your horse, but O don't have a problem giving a horse a good whack with a whip if you think your horse might endanger you. (wether that be merely biting to kicking, charging, rearing)


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## Shadomoon (Jul 15, 2011)

Ray MacDonald said:


> People can say the same about you. Some people might think you are too soft on your horses or don't train your horses well enough.
> 
> The topic was about training. Not about if the horse was sore. We always encourage people rule out pain from any problem they are having with their horses.
> 
> ...


Yes the topic was about training. Which is why I responded the way I did. Of course I didn't expect someone to suggest a vet or farrier hitting an animal was right or a good source of training (not exactly what was said but easy to take it this way). I added on the pain aspect because often MANY people don't take into account the pain aspect. It is part of training. In this case I have to say, it is best to assume that not everyone will agree with your training practices. If you need to beat your horse in order to get it to listen it is not training it is fear. Your horse should want to do what you ask not fear you hitting it because it doesn't. That is training IMO.

I can agree that some may say I'm too soft (though not if they met me, people often tell me I'm mean to my dogs and horses because I don't let them get away with anything) but I'm not sure how saying I don't want a vet or farrier hitting my horse is saying I'm too soft.


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## AmazinCaucasian (Dec 10, 2010)

Shadomoon said:


> Yes the topic was about training. Which is why I responded the way I did. Of course I didn't expect someone to suggest a vet or farrier hitting an animal was right or a good source of training (not exactly what was said but easy to take it this way). I added on the pain aspect because often MANY people don't take into account the pain aspect. It is part of training. In this case I have to say, it is best to assume that not everyone will agree with your training practices. If you need to beat your horse in order to get it to listen it is not training it is fear. Your horse should want to do what you ask not fear you hitting it because it doesn't. That is training IMO.
> 
> I can agree that some may say I'm too soft (though not if they met me, people often tell me I'm mean to my dogs and horses because I don't let them get away with anything) but I'm not sure how saying I don't want a vet or farrier hitting my horse is saying I'm too soft.


 
If you'd discipline your horse, the farrier wouldn't have to. Horseshoers don't want to come to your place and tune on your horse. They have a living to make, and it's brutal enough dealing with cooperative horses. You should ride with a farrier for a day. See what they have to put up with from people and horses. And please don't tell us you already have, or your friend, cousin, dad, brother is a shoer, so you know. You don't know. It's evident. 

When I met my wife she acted the same way: Nobody better lay a hand on my horse!!!! After riding with me for a few weeks, she was yelling at me to kick their a!!. Even when the owners were there. I've spanked the horses of rich people, poor people, big people, small people, tough people, silly people, beginners, and trainers for 20 yrs. Nobody ran me off like you claim you did to a shoer, and I doubt you'd be any different.

One person did get pretty mad at me for kickin the brake shoes off a 4yo stud with no manners. I finished the job and she didn't call me back for 11 years. Then she decided she wanted to become a farrier. She called. Wanted to ride with me and learn. OK that's fine she went with me for a few days and after she went out on her own she caught me and wanted to talk. Thumb in a cast, hand bandaged up. She said she spent more on emergency room and doctor bills than she made shoeing. She apologized for getting huffy 11 years ago and said she doesn't just want to kick them. She wants to shoot em in the face with her pistol


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Didnt read all posts, so sorry. xD

I think there is something to be learned and improved on from every method of horsemanship, and a true horsemen should be open-minded enough to know that.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

I never had a large stable of horses. I had two and sometimes 3 horses. A farrrier came to my place and I was GRATEFUL because he could go to a BARN and do several horses and get paid all at once.. cut down on travel etc. 

I paid cash and my horses behaved and I did not care WHAT method I used to get that. Behave meant, "Look around once.. maybe twice.. and then stand there and put up and shut up." I had top of the line farriers (did 3 day event horses that competed at Olympic levels in a couple of cases). 

ONE TIME I had a horse that had been running wild for several years that I bought as a project (did a lot of this BTW). He had not had his feet handled ever.. and he was a big boy. I called my farrier and explained the situation and said, "Look... I need some help here and I will pay you same as if you are actually trimming/putting on shoes but we both need this horse to stand." 

He came out and we got thru the worst of it.. and he actually did rasp his feet some. I worked with the horse every day for a month and then he came back and we were all good. 

I do not care WHAT sort of horsemanship philosophy you follow to get results (as long as it is not wanton cruelty). Horses are large animals that can be very dangerous. There are times (like with the farrier) that they need to be absolute poster children of good behavior. The method that achieves this consistantly is not as important as the result. 

Like I said.. if rainbows and cookies will get that, go for it. If you need to be a little more assertive, then that is OK too. The training tool box has lots and lots and lots of tools in it. Use what you need and only as much as you need.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

I am having to work slowly with Bourbons feet because her breeder left her in a field for 2 yrs untouched she has come a long way but is now where near ready for Jason my farrier. precisely why I pick up my foals feet at least once everyday and tap on the bottom of the hooves that is one of the most important things you have to do.


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## Shadomoon (Jul 15, 2011)

AmazinCaucasian said:


> If you'd discipline your horse, the farrier wouldn't have to. Horseshoers don't want to come to your place and tune on your horse. They have a living to make, and it's brutal enough dealing with cooperative horses. You should ride with a farrier for a day. See what they have to put up with from people and horses. And please don't tell us you already have, or your friend, cousin, dad, brother is a shoer, so you know. You don't know. It's evident.


No I have never rode with a farrier or an equine vet for that matter. However I deal with other people's animals all the time. It would be wrong of me to hit a clients dog or cat even if they scratch or bite me. They are not my property, and by law animals are considered property. You wouldn't want someone denting your car because they didn't like the way you had it parked. I own a dog/cat boarding/grooming kennel. I have to work with unruly animals all the time. I worked as a dog trainer for years dealing with aggressive dogs. Dogs are much smaller than horses but equally dangerous, especially aggressive ones. However dogs learn much differently than horses but the thought is still the same. They are not my property even if they are at my kennel. 

That being said, it is funny that this farrier is the ONLY one to ever hit one of my gelding. I've had other "horsehshoers" and trimmers that have never hit my animals. And my current trimmer would never raise a hand to my gelding let alone hit them. However she takes no crap and will "get on" a horse if it acts up (watched her do this at another farm) she never hit them. There are other ways to gain respect. Pain never equals respect.

A horse can kill you, but training it out of fear will never give you respect. So I can assure you, once again, there is nothing "badly behaved" about my horses. One farrier hit a horse for looking at him, who was angry already (and apparently cannot control his anger issue). It is funny that I never have to hit my horse to gain respect. There is a huge difference between a tap on the hind end to get it to move off than a smack to the face, but hey that is me. I don't expect you to agree with me. I say lets agree to disagree. I won't tell you what to do with your animals, you clearly have a handle on what is in your training tool box. Our items are just different. 

And heck maybe in a year or so that will change for me and I'll agree with you. At this point I don't. Is it so horrible for me not to agree with you? I've never been injured or even been threatened an injury my any of my horses. But if I end up in the hospital I'll likely agree that maybe I should have been stronger handed with them.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

All horses are different, you just haven't come into contact with a horse that needs an agressive owner for it to behave properly. 

And very few people train with fear. It still happens, yes, but just giving a horse a smack doesn't equal cruel or training with fear. Tying up the legs and beating it into submission is training with fear.


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

Ray MacDonald said:


> All horses are different, you just haven't come into contact with a horse that needs an agressive owner for it to behave properly.
> 
> And very few people train with fear. It still happens, yes.


Ray you are right. I haven't come into contact with a horse that needs an aggressive owner either. The owner may think the horse does because the owner lacks the knowledge or tools to know how else to cope, but there is always another way. Aggression does not help horses or humans.

As for training with fear I see your perspective, and hopefully you are correct that such beatings are less frequent today. However fear takes many forms, and many trainers still rely on micro management and fear to mentally beat their horses into submission. That is their choice, but it is what it is. That is why I see so many horses with ulcers, vices and worse still, lifeless. No longer horses at all to me at least.

In some respects horses often cope better with short sharp physical attacks than they do some of the more modern 'NH or not' methods of torture.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

I dont think its necessarily an aggressive handler I think it would be a confident handler that takes control and is in charge in the horses eye in a herd situation it would be the boss mare position


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## Shadomoon (Jul 15, 2011)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> I dont think its necessarily an aggressive handler I think it would be a confident handler that takes control and is in charge in the horses eye in a herd situation it would be the boss mare position


Oh I agree. Confidence goes a long way for a horse, but don't mistake that with aggression. 

And Ray I have dealt with horses that require a more aggressive hand. My mare being a very "alpha" personality who will walk all over anyone if they let her. You give an inch, she takes a mile. She does respect me without hitting her. Mind you, if it ever got to a dangerous situation I'd have NO issue with protecting myself. And yes, undoubtedly, I've gave her a sharp swat once or twice, but it isn't about what I do that matters. It is about what a stranger does. And no stranger is allowed to treat my animal as they please unless I give them the permission to. This is just lawful not about training. I have no problem with ANYONE hitting THEIR horse. But you are not permitted to hit mine. Perhaps you haven't come in contact with a horse that takes a smack and is afraid of it. Have you ever met a horse that shook when a person got near it in fear? To this horse, a smack is more abuse and is something that could lead to a dangerous situation not help it. 

I watched a trainer repeatedly whip a horse in the shoulder until it listened, it was so hard his skin got raw. I watched teach a student how to heel kick a horse in the spot right past the elbow every time the horse acted up. It literally kicked the wind out of the horse every time (as the trainer said, she was injured there before and would understand better with pain there again). I watched another trainer take a horse and smack him with the handle of a rake because he looked at her when she was in his stall (a horse never known to kick) and if he looked at her she smack him in the face with the stick. Same horse now is deathly afraid of sticks. I think my favorite all these trainers did is that when a horse came up lame they'd still make him/her work. One was heard saying, "He'll get over it, he needs to learn that we are in charge." So to think that training with fear doesn't happen that often, I'd say is wrong. All of these happened in the last year and all were different people at different places. And sadly it is just a few. I know trainers who still use harsh methods. This to me is abuse, not training. But again, these weren't my horses, it is the owner's job to protect their horse, if they let it happen then maybe that is their training style, who am I to tell them what to do?

I don't deal with horses that need aggressive hands often, and as I keep saying, I have no issue with how you treat your horses. It is none of my business. I certainly am not going to judge you on what you do. I certainly don't have as much experience as some. I'm not a natural guru either. But what I'm saying it is it no one else's right to harm another person's property, unless our judicial system changes of course. (speaking only in the US, other countries other rules) I don't have an issue with people giving a sharp smack to their horse, as long as it is theirs. My horses, for whatever reason, don't need that. For the most part my guys won't respect a stranger anyway so smacking them isn't going to get you very far in the first place. But to each their own!


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

But if you treat an abused horse like there is a problem, he is going to be a problem. Now, I know you probably weren't saying this, but what I thought when you said "Perhaps you haven't come in contact with a horse that takes a smack and is afraid of it. Have you ever met a horse that shook when a person got near it in fear? To this horse, a smack is more abuse and is something that could lead to a dangerous situation not help it."

It makes it sounds like saying you walk up to the horse and just smack it, for no reason. You probably don't mean it that way.

If any horse bit me, I am smacking it. Same with kicking or anything else. Abused or not. You have to show and tell the horse that you are the herd leader but can also protect and be nice to the horse (Which is training)

Unfortunatly, abuse is out there! I can't stop that. I personally don't see it much.

As for other people hitting others horses, of course when you specifically say, "Don't touch my horse!" they wont touch it. People will protect themselves.

When the farrier has been bitten or kicked all day at work, once he/she feels a horses nose on them, they react to protect themselves, they have that right!


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

And sorry for the misconception, I should have put a confident handler not aggressive "RAWWRR" handler LOL

Just a knowledgeable person that can deal with a slightly pushy or naturally spooky horse, that wouldn't freak out when something happened (Such as horse pushed them, pulled leadline out of hands to get grass, gave a little spook to the side)


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Ray MacDonald said:


> And sorry for the misconception, I should have put a confident handler not aggressive "RAWWRR" handler LOL
> 
> Just a knowledgeable person that can deal with a slightly pushy or naturally spooky horse, that wouldn't freak out when something happened (Such as horse pushed them, pulled leadline out of hands to get grass, gave a little spook to the side)


I knew what you meant sorry to offend.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I think that one reason that non Nh folks often have a strong emotions reaction and feeling of disdain for NH techniques is that they view them as "weak" and maybe more feminine based, and far from the traditional view that we cowboy up and don't tolerate any nonsense, in a more masculine way. The terms butterfly kisses and fairy farts being used shows a feeling of real scorn and disdain, the same way that many people say, "she's just a girl" or "you sound like a girl!" implying that softness is weakness and worthy of being despised. That's a feeling I can detect in some of the posts here.

This isn't my personal feeling, but I do have a certain amount of disdain for some of the NH philosphys, but this is based more on what I see resulting in the horse itself. It's not that I don't like to see training done without force or spankings or such. (the so called " butterfy kissing") I might not have even seen the way it was trained, but when I see some Parelli horses later, I see a kind of automatic way of responding to the rider, that to ME, is not ideal.
I also find it unappealing that some of the Parelli systems , and maybe others, too, use 'steps" and systems that are so clearly defined that the new user ends up spending their energy and focus on the STEP, instead of the horse.
The good thing about the systems, that they are broken down into pieces and laid out in a systematic format that is useable by persons new to horses is their greatest strength, and their greatest weakness. The person gets wrapped up in following these "recipes" without really knowing why they are doing this ground work and if it really is necessary today for the horse that is in front of them now, and will this help the horse they will RIDE.


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## Shadomoon (Jul 15, 2011)

Ray MacDonald said:


> If any horse bit me, I am smacking it. Same with kicking or anything else. Abused or not. You have to show and tell the horse that you are the herd leader but can also protect and be nice to the horse (Which is training)
> 
> When the farrier has been bitten or kicked all day at work, once he/she feels a horses nose on them, they react to protect themselves, they have that right!


Hey if a horse bit me I'd want to smack it too. I don't tolerate that sort of behavior. But that being said, if it isn't my horse I wouldn't smack it. Partly because it could be a lawsuit waiting to happen. This is protecting myself.

And again, in this case, there was no feeling of a "nose" touching the farrier, it was a turn of the head, no touching. But I see your point. Once again, in the same situation I would have acted differently. I don't expect everyone to act as I do. But it isn't a show of weakness or lack of training. But there is a reason I use the vet and trimmer I do. Same farrier that smacked him horse (repeatedly) called me a few months back looking for work. Apparently others complained about a similar anger issue he had. He didn't remember who I was until he called. There are reasons people like him don't last long. Very few people around here tolerate that sort of behavior from a hired body. You have every right to defend yourself, just as I do. If I was ever in a situation that needed me to act aggressive I would, but in none of these situations was aggression needed. You need to be the alpha, but aggression shows a lack of confidence in a leader.

We do not need people that let their horses walk all over them. And we need to insure our horses are safe members of society. But we also need to understand when and where our methods should be used. I do practice more of a bonding horsemanship which does probably take root off of a more natural approach. But it works for me. And if my horses ever acted in a manner that is dangerous to a stranger I'd expect them to defend themselves. We can argue if the farrier or vet was right all day. Considering I am the only one on this board that was there and I have a bias opinion it really doesn't matter. We all can agree that each training method has a merit and some work better for others than they may do for ourselves. We also could probably agree that in a bad situation we have all right to protect ourselves. Where we may disagree is where that right begins and ends and what measures need to be used. But that is fine, we are allowed to feel that way. Lets agree to disagree on that.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Shadomoon said:


> Hey if a horse bit me I'd want to smack it too. I don't tolerate that sort of behavior. But that being said, if it isn't my horse I wouldn't smack it. Partly because it could be a lawsuit waiting to happen. This is protecting myself.
> 
> And again, in this case, there was no feeling of a "nose" touching the farrier, it was a turn of the head, no touching. But I see your point. Once again, in the same situation I would have acted differently. I don't expect everyone to act as I do. But it isn't a show of weakness or lack of training. But there is a reason I use the vet and trimmer I do. Same farrier that smacked him horse (repeatedly) called me a few months back looking for work. Apparently others complained about a similar anger issue he had. He didn't remember who I was until he called. There are reasons people like him don't last long. Very few people around here tolerate that sort of behavior from a hired body. You have every right to defend yourself, just as I do. If I was ever in a situation that needed me to act aggressive I would, but in none of these situations was aggression needed. You need to be the alpha, but aggression shows a lack of confidence in a leader.
> 
> We do not need people that let their horses walk all over them. And we need to insure our horses are safe members of society. But we also need to understand when and where our methods should be used. I do practice more of a bonding horsemanship which does probably take root off of a more natural approach. But it works for me. And if my horses ever acted in a manner that is dangerous to a stranger I'd expect them to defend themselves. We can argue if the farrier or vet was right all day. Considering I am the only one on this board that was there and I have a bias opinion it really doesn't matter. We all can agree that each training method has a merit and some work better for others than they may do for ourselves. We also could probably agree that in a bad situation we have all right to protect ourselves. Where we may disagree is where that right begins and ends and what measures need to be used. But that is fine, we are allowed to feel that way. Lets agree to disagree on that.


From someone with a legal degree If ya smack a horse in any form of defense you will not/cant be sued not to mention every state has some sort of livestock/horse laws


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## elnaturel (Jul 28, 2011)

are there many knowledgeable professional horse trainers here on horseforum?


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

elnaturel said:


> are there many knowledgeable professional horse trainers here on horseforum?



There are a lot of knowledgeable horse people on this forum. Nobody said that you need to be a professional to be knowledgeable.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

elnaturel said:


> are there many knowledgeable professional horse trainers here on horseforum?


I'm not gonna go into Western ones (as I simply don't know, never tried to keep eye on), but we have a bunch of very good English trainers here.


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## Shadomoon (Jul 15, 2011)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> From someone with a legal degree If ya smack a horse in any form of defense you will not/cant be sued not to mention every state has some sort of livestock/horse laws


It all depends on how you take the "defense." Case in point, a farrier got sued around here for a very similar case. A trainer did as well. So yes it can and DOES happen and with this legal system you are better off covering your butt than just doing whatever the heck you please.

I personally know a girl that owned a rather expensive hunter jumper mare. The trainer came out and rode the mare (as was normal) and anytime the mare acted up she would hit her in the neck. The girl asked the trainer to stop, she explained it was training. Did it again, she found herself with a large fine from the girl's family. There was no clear damage to the horse, but there were enough witnesses that saw the horse being hit and heard the girl ask the trainer not to that it was a cut and dry case. 

The law clearly defines the job of a farrier and vet, and to "train" the horse is not part of the job description. When it comes to a trainer it is harder to define where training starts and abuse ends, in this girl's case she asked the trainer to stop and she didn't. That is where it became illegal, but with vets and farriers even one wrong step can lead them to legal action with certain people. 

And of course rules vary from state to state but it is clear everywhere that horses are property and if that property is mistreated it can lead to a lawsuit. 

Defense is one thing but as my lawyer said, defense is hard to prove in a court of law, especially if there was no injuries to the person. 

In dog bite cases, unless there are witnesses and is a case filled out there is nothing you can do to the dog or the owners. In horses it is very much the same. If a horse kicks you and you go to the hospital you are very liable to press charges. But if a horse threatens to kick you, well you have no case. On the flip side if you have witnesses that saw someone hit your horse, dog, cat, etc then you do have a case but based mostly on conjecture. Still these cases happen with conviction so my suggestion is to not get yourself into a situation that would allow for any conviction, even if it is a very slight chance. But I'm a careful law abiding citizen.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Shadomoon said:


> For the most part my guys won't respect a stranger anyway so smacking them isn't going to get you very far in the first place. But to each their own!


If your horses won't respect a stranger how do new farriers, vets, barn staff or any number of other people handle them?
My horses respect all humans, they have to for safety reasons. Sure they will occasionally test a new rider but on the ground anyone even holding their lead rope is the boss, without question.


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

If I were training a horse and it misbehaved to the point where I thought a smack on the neck was necessary and the owner asked me to stop, stop is exactly what I would do. Stop hitting the horse? Yes...because I would be in the driveway before the owner figured out what happened. 

Trainers train. I wouldn't allow my horse to be abused but I can't see how a neck smack could do any harm. 

I let a farrier go once that cracked Froggy with a rasp. If Froggy had been doing anything other than shifting his weight, I would have allowed him to smack him with an open hand. A smack with a rasp could seriously injure him. A smack with an open hand lets him know whats up. 

My horse is required to stand quietly and patiently for vet/farrier or anyone else that is holding the leadrope. If he doesn't want to stand quietly, there are consequences. Does that mean I am taking a shovel to his face? Heck no! But he will move out of my space and it will be very uncomfortable until he is willing to stand for me. 

I don't think there is any valid reason for bad behavior.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Shadomoon said:


> It all depends on how you take the "defense." Case in point, a farrier got sued around here for a very similar case. A trainer did as well. So yes it can and DOES happen and with this legal system you are better off covering your butt than just doing whatever the heck you please.
> 
> I personally know a girl that owned a rather expensive hunter jumper mare. The trainer came out and rode the mare (as was normal) and anytime the mare acted up she would hit her in the neck. The girl asked the trainer to stop, she explained it was training. Did it again, she found herself with a large fine from the girl's family. There was no clear damage to the horse, but there were enough witnesses that saw the horse being hit and heard the girl ask the trainer not to that it was a cut and dry case.
> 
> ...


LOL so not true sorry.


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## Shadomoon (Jul 15, 2011)

natisha said:


> If your horses won't respect a stranger how do new farriers, vets, barn staff or any number of other people handle them?
> My horses respect all humans, they have to for safety reasons. Sure they will occasionally test a new rider but on the ground anyone even holding their lead rope is the boss, without question.


Perhaps it was worded in a wrong manner. They are taught respect by acceptance. So if I walk in with a new trimmer, they are expect to behave. If the trimmer walks in by themselves and the horses don't know that person, I doubt they will "go off" with them. I think this is a natural behavior for most animals. I say my guys are reserved with strangers in the sense that you aren't in charge until the alpha says you are. This is a safety measure. This doesn't mean they are stupid when I'm not around, but respectful is different than stupid. They will probably do most of what anyone asks of them but to push outside their norm and comfort zone I can say they won't do that with a stranger. That being said, they don't always need ME there, anyone they know is someone they are taught to respect. After one visit the trimmer can do them herself, the vet can pull them herself, and the neighbors could feed them. I would expect most owners would be there the first time their horse meets a person. So it is a mute point for me to have said mine won't respect strangers. But by strangers I mean someone that comes in uninvited. 

Honestly a smack to the neck doesn't seem like it would do harm, but it isn't an outsider's place to judge if the horse deserved it or not and if it was harmful or not. If the owner says stop, you better stop. That trainer had no right which was the problem. 

That being said, isn't it easier to say to the owner, "Hey can you do something about your horse doing (this or that)?" Instead of just smacking it? Allow the owner the chance to fix the issue before you take matters in your own hands. But this is just my ideal. Communication it the key everywhere. A smack to the face is a good way of getting your point across but to a person standing there seeing nothing wrong this says anger, especially if there was no prior communication made. 

We as owners need to protect our animals and those that work on them. Those that work on them need to protect themselves. If we can communicate our issues with our animals, those that work on them can communicate if they are having an issue. This is just my POV on it. Again I'm not saying that in a dangerous situation you don't have the right to hit a horse. I'm saying that I would prefer someone communicated their issue with the owner before allowing it to progress to a dangerous point. Of course that is in a perfect world.

And I love how you say it isn't true LuvMy... I will avoid making a rude comment. I can say it is true, if you have proof of the opposite please educate me. This is what I was told by three separate lawyers. If they are wrong, I have no issue firing the one I have on retainer.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Shadomoon said:


> That being said, isn't it easier to say to the owner, "Hey can you do something about your horse doing (this or that)?" Instead of just smacking it? Allow the owner the chance to fix the issue before you take matters in your own hands.


Depending on situation. 

If someone's horse would try to run me over or jump on top of me or kick me, it would get a GOOD smack wit the crop on neck. Or chest. Or whatever else close by and safe for me to do it. I won't wait for the owner to say "OK" or "correct" it when the horse (lacking the manners) tries to injury me.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

You are truly missing the window of opportunity if the person handling the horse has to beg permission from the over indulgent owner before they punish a horse for a bad act. Three second rule.

Watch herd dynamics. When a horse does something wrong the other horse(s) kick or bite it right then and there. No waiting.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

kitten_Val said:


> Depending on situation.
> 
> If someone's horse would try to run me over or jump on top of me or kick me, it would get a GOOD smack wit the crop on neck. Or chest. Or whatever else close by and safe for me to do it. I won't wait for the owner to say "OK" or "correct" it when the horse (lacking the manners) tries to injury me.



Thank you a wait and tell the owner situation may never come I mean come on its an animal that weighs 1000+ pounds I sure as heck aint gonna wait until after my brains are kicked in or after I've been stomped to say hey Ms owner could you stop your horse from killing me pretty please.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Alwaysbehind said:


> You are truly missing the window of opportunity if the person handling the horse has to beg permission from the over indulgent owner before they punish a horse for a bad act. Three second rule.
> 
> Watch herd dynamics. When a horse does something wrong the other horse(s) kick or bite it right then and there. No waiting.


Very very well said.


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## Buckcherry (Nov 18, 2010)

> I don't think there is any valid reason for bad behavior


:clap:


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## Shadomoon (Jul 15, 2011)

Alwaysbehind said:


> You are truly missing the window of opportunity if the person handling the horse has to beg permission from the over indulgent owner before they punish a horse for a bad act. Three second rule.
> 
> Watch herd dynamics. When a horse does something wrong the other horse(s) kick or bite it right then and there. No waiting.


I agree. However I'd hope that no one's horse is this dangerous (of course I'm not ignorant and I know there are TONS of dangerous horses). In this case I can see not waiting and as I am saying there is NO issue with defending yourself. Of course you are missing the point. Those moments where it isn't defense, it is just "bad behavior" are the moments where I would ask permission before acting. Likely the bad behavior was ignored first and then got to the annoying point. Before it gets to the annoying point you should tell the owner. I have a mare who will continue to invade a person's space one tiny step at a time if you don't check her back. Don't wait until she is standing on you to do something about it. This is just an example of course. This says NOTHING about a dangerous situation (though it could turn dangerous) but instead of getting annoyed with the horse in your space, maybe say, "Can you back the horse up please?" Now if it continues to happen, well you can take matters from there I suppose.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Shadomoon said:


> I agree. However I'd hope that no one's horse is this dangerous (of course I'm not ignorant and I know there are TONS of dangerous horses). In this case I can see not waiting and as I am saying there is NO issue with defending yourself. Of course you are missing the point. Those moments where it isn't defense, it is just "bad behavior" are the moments where I would ask permission before acting. Likely the bad behavior was ignored first and then got to the annoying point. Before it gets to the annoying point you should tell the owner. I have a mare who will continue to invade a person's space one tiny step at a time if you don't check her back. Don't wait until she is standing on you to do something about it. This is just an example of course. This says NOTHING about a dangerous situation (though it could turn dangerous) but instead of getting annoyed with the horse in your space, maybe say, "Can you back the horse up please?" Now if it continues to happen, well you can take matters from there I suppose.


LOL smacks hand on forehead I give up.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

I can see where Shadomoon coming from in some instances, nothing is ever black or white. 
For example, I have a mare that is a chronic ear pinner, always has been. She is also very sweet & never pins her ears when handled but looking at her in her stall she is scary. I would not like anyone to challenge her to get her to stop. It would be a fruitless venture anyway. She has been taught to 'look pretty' which is the only time she'll put her ears forward if you're looking at her.
What was my point? 
Anyway, if I'm holding a horse for a farrier or whatever, I tell them that if anything goes amiss to get out of the way fast & I'll handle it. That way we all know what is going on.


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

I have found this thread quite fascinating. Once again I am amazed at how zealously respondents defend the right and importance of being able to physically correct the animal.

Lots of talk about respect and enforcing it etc.

Yet what about respect for the owner. Another human? Yet alone the animal itself.

Shadow has never at any point suggested that a horse endangering a vet or farrier cannot be corrected. However a merely inquisitive horse does not deserve to be struck. Simple.

What is this obsession with aggression. In the same way that I read such arguments against too much fairy hugging and butterfly kisses (which I agree with largely), let me ask this. If you are so quick to physically correct a horse is it because you lack control in other aspects of your life? Is it the need to overpower something? Is it the need to feel powerful? Is it because you are simply too scared due to the size of the animal? (just posing the questions that are commonly posed in reverse)

Horses might crush or cause breaks, throw or bolt, but more people die after dog attacks than horse attacks every year. Size isn't the issue.


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## Shadomoon (Jul 15, 2011)

Doe said:


> I have found this thread quite fascinating. Once again I am amazed at how zealously respondents defend the right and importance of being able to physically correct the animal.
> 
> Lots of talk about respect and enforcing it etc.
> 
> ...


Thank you Doe, I wholeheartedly agree. And Natisha I understand that completely. There was a horse at my old stable that was the same way. Only he never perked ears at anyone. He wasn't mean, just never perked his ears forward. But he was the sweetest animal I ever met. No point in training it out of him, he obviously wasn't dangerous. But to the wrong person that could be a threat. Which is why I think communication is the key with everything!


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

Doe said:


> I have found this thread quite fascinating. Once again I am amazed at how zealously respondents defend the right and importance of being able to physically correct the animal.
> 
> Lots of talk about respect and enforcing it etc.
> 
> ...


Ummm... no.... We discipline our horses so there aren't accidents and they aren't trying to kill us.

I don't do it because I lack control over my life, don't need to over power anything, and I am not scared of my horses or other horses (being within reason).

I do it so my horse will behave and that I don't have to fight with him on anything or have him being dangerous so people wont feel the need to correct him if he is being bad.


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## eclaire23 (Oct 26, 2010)

*Not going to read all the pages!*

I love NH and the non variety! My training is a bit of everyting that seems to work!

I have issues with gadgets- and don't think they should ever be used-
But then again I enjoy using bits most people on here would kill me for!

As long as there are horses- there will be people to fight over they're training!
Kinda like the idea of "peace"! Thats it, it's just an idea! lol


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## eclaire23 (Oct 26, 2010)

Hahaha I was too interested in this thread to leave it at my original post soooo I read it all 1 hour of my life wasted on opinions Lol I made sure to let everyones opinion sink in- and with the first post I agree with will be Courtney's. That is natural. Might seem odd- but facts speak. But my post before explains I use a mixture of training styles. 

A horse should never be disciplined over 3 seconds- other wise its unfair

"And that's all I have to say about that"- Forest Gump


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## thegoldenpony (Mar 5, 2011)

It's pretty ironic that we're arguing over training methods on a thread that was meant to settle differences. :wink:


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

I have read this whole thread and have various opinions on other peoples various opinions LOL. The one thing that did strike me was the whole should a farrier strike a horse situation. My farrier is obviously smarter than your farrier. When I am holding my horse for him and she gets her head around to sniff his bum he smacks ME and gives ME the telling off because I am the one holding the rope, it's MY job to see that he is safe from my horse. Whats the point in disciplining a horse when the owner is an idiot?


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

Doe said:


> I have found this thread quite fascinating. Once again I am amazed at how zealously respondents defend the right and importance of being able to physically correct the animal.
> 
> Lots of talk about respect and enforcing it etc.
> 
> ...



Doe, the way you make it sound, I get absolutely nothing done with my horse because I am too busy beating him so furiously, I don't even have time to tack up. 

Here is an example of my day. Go feed Froggy. Fight 50+ beef cattle to get to him, all of which want his grain. Get him away from the herd, tie him and give him his bucket. Let him eat peacefully and finish. When he is done, I groom him. Usually, at some point he starts the 'ants in the pants dance' because his herd is leaving him. To counteract this dance, we lunge, hard and aggressively. 4-5 circles around and he is ready to settle and accept the grooming as scheduled. 

Tack up and go a few 'lets loosen up' lunging circles. We figure out exactly where we stand. I step up and on and off we go. About 100 paces or so away from his herd and he calls out. We circle and circle and circle til I have his mind back. 

I don't "gently" ask him to do anything. I am the boss lady. If he is misbehaving or acting out of turn, he is going to know about it. I lunge without a whip because I don't need it. Or a stick for that much. I use my body language to drive him away. I don't ride with spurs, a whip, a stick or even a harsh bit. He rides on a simple full cheek. 

In return for his good behavior, he gets a life of leisure. I ride MAX 3 hours a week. The rest of the time he is on knee deep pasture with great field mates, excellent nutrition and an owner that truly cares for his wellbeing. 

I don't 'ask' his permission for things. We don't have that kind of relationship. And if he is misbehaving for the vet or the farrier, he is going to get a growl. If the growl doesn't work, he will get a shoulder smack. If the shoulder smack doesn't work, I'll ask the farrier if we can be excused for a minute so that he can be 'aggressively' lunged.


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## ChingazMyBoy (Apr 16, 2009)

I believe that we all have our own opinion and as we were taught when we were younger, we should try to accept other peoples opinions. No matter how different they may be.

Some of us are natural-lovers, some accept some methods, some hate it. Each to their own. Thankfully our lovely admin team has made it possible for us to have so many sections where we can post things without interferring with others.

*For example : *I occasionally use Natural Methods, but I don't make a point of coming into this section - if I see a thread that interests me and I share an opinion with the OP. I'll happily post.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

The thing is, the OP asked why the "haters"? Are there really that many more haters of NH methods than, say, haters of Western Pleasure? or Dressage? or Walking horse competitions? That is the question, are there more haters, and if so, why the vehemence of their position?


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

I didn't read all the posts, but my answer is, I don't hate NH. What I do hate is people cramming it down my throat like it's the end-all be-all of horsemanship. To me the best training method is the one that works. I don't care if it's NH, cowboy logic or something I read in a magazine. If it works, it works. I hate to see people box themselves into a corner with narrow minded views that only one person or method can solve all their problems. It just makes no sense to me.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

tinyliny said:


> The thing is, the OP asked why the "haters"? Are there really that many more haters of NH methods than, say, haters of Western Pleasure? or Dressage? or Walking horse competitions? That is the question, are there more haters, and if so, why the vehemence of their position?


I wonder if it is simply that so many of us see subscribers to the NH gurus with extremely badly behaved horses?


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

kiwigirl said:


> I wonder if it is simply that so many of us see subscribers to the NH gurus with extremely badly behaved horses?


Oh yeah. I forgot that part in my answer. I know three people I would consider die hard NH horse owners. All have extremely poorly behaved horses who walk all over them. They remind me of spoiled children who's parents refuse to discipline because they don't want them to hate them. None of them actually ride their horses because they are afraid of them.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

Hey you all know what we could do? Instead of worrying about about what methods/labels people use to work with their horses we could instead look at the results of the handling. And then if an individual has a very badly behaved, potentially dangerous horse, instead of blaming the Parelli, Clint Anderson, Monty Roberts, method that that individual is using rather we could look at the individual instead. We could then honestly tell them " hey man, your horse handling skills suck, you obviously don't have the skill level necessary to correctly interpret what you are being shown, you are seriously over stating your abilities and need to go back a few steps"

Oh but that might be considered harsh and supportive. Heaven forbid that an individual should have to take some responsibility for the end result of their 'work' with the horse they ride.


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

kiwigirl said:


> " hey man, your horse handling skills suck, you obviously don't have the skill level necessary to correctly interpret what you are being shown, you are seriously over stating your abilities and need to go back a few steps"
> 
> Oh but that might be considered harsh and supportive. Heaven forbid that an individual should have to take some responsibility for the end result of their 'work' with the horse they ride.


It's just like telling someone their kid is a brat. It goes in one ear and out the other. Not their precious Johnny. He's a saint. Doesn't matter if Johnny turns out to be a 1200 animal who can cause some serious injury.


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## Shadomoon (Jul 15, 2011)

corinowalk said:


> In return for his good behavior, he gets a life of leisure. I ride MAX 3 hours a week. The rest of the time he is on knee deep pasture with great field mates, excellent nutrition and an owner that truly cares for his wellbeing.
> 
> I don't 'ask' his permission for things. We don't have that kind of relationship. And if he is misbehaving for the vet or the farrier, he is going to get a growl. If the growl doesn't work, he will get a shoulder smack. If the shoulder smack doesn't work, I'll ask the farrier if we can be excused for a minute so that he can be 'aggressively' lunged.


I disagree with these methods, it is okay for me to do so? I don't aggressively lunge my horses. My horses' reward for good behavior isn't leisure and I certainly don't growl at my horses. But if this is what works for you that is great! I think we use the tools we are given. Sometimes we are arrogant, sometimes we are ignorant, and sometimes we get it right. We should accept that there is good horsemanship and bad horsemanship but it is a matter of opinion on both. We all view different things as bad or good. 

People in both NH and non-NH ways need to take steps back and no jam their beliefs down each other's throats. Whatever you do for your horse is fine (outside of legal abuse and neglect) but never expect other people to operate the same way you do.

I'm not into butterflies and rainbows. I expect my horses to respect me but my methods differ from yours which probably also differ from another person's and so on. (using "you" generally) On most things it is better to agree to disagree and leave it at that. Most people will wake up when they get kicked or trampled or bit or etc. Some others won't sadly.


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

My issue with NH is the extremists who seem to think that NH is about making life easy pleasy for the horse, when in reality, NH is learning how to think like the horse, in order to best work with him... In other words learning why he reacts to certain stimuli, and figuring out the best way to helping him to either not react to it anymore, or to continue to react in that manner for you in an even more refined manner. I don't hate NH by a long shot, but like any other "discipline" within the horse world, if I had to send my horse to a trainer in the NH world, I would choose very, very carefully, because I have specific desires, and needs for my horses, and respect from my horses is high on that list, so I wouldn't want a trainer who doesn't earn the animal's respect when he works with it. 

There are a couple of NH gurus at my barn who have horses who are quite pushy, and reactive in certain situations...but they don't put the effort it takes for their horses to understand what it is they really are asking of them, in order for those horses to become a much more willing partner. That isn't the fault of NH though, in my humble opinion...just owners that don't know better, or just don't want to work at getting over certain issues with their horses yet.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

kiwigirl said:


> Hey you all know what we could do? Instead of worrying about about what methods/labels people use to work with their horses we could instead look at the results of the handling. And then if an individual has a very badly behaved, potentially dangerous horse, instead of blaming the Parelli, Clint Anderson, Monty Roberts, method that that individual is using rather we could look at the individual instead. We could then honestly tell them " hey man, your horse handling skills suck, you obviously don't have the skill level necessary to correctly interpret what you are being shown, you are seriously over stating your abilities and need to go back a few steps"
> 
> Oh but that might be considered harsh and supportive. Heaven forbid that an individual should have to take some responsibility for the end result of their 'work' with the horse they ride.


 


This! I have to say that I have seen some dressage and hunter folks whose horses have abominable ground skills and cannot handle any sort of environment outside of a pristine arena. Owner's fault.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

tinyliny said:


> This! I have to say that I have seen some dressage and hunter folks whose horses have abominable ground skills and cannot handle any sort of environment outside of a pristine arena. Owner's fault.


I know that this is a gross generalization but what is it with competitive sport horse riders? So many of them have such one dimensional horses, absolute maniacs that are dangers to every one who has the misfortune of having to try and handle them but by golly they can win a ribbon in an arena. Its as if they believe there has to be a trade off between training for respectful manners or performance. This is just my opinion based on my own personal experience, with the competitive people I have met, honestly they are the most ignorant horse owners I have ever come across! Its as if all their energy goes into the show and there is nothing left to invest in training a horse to be clipped without using a twitch or loading on to a float without using seven people, a bum rope and winch.

Disclaimer: not an attack on any person/persons on this forum currently competing their horses.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

tinyliny said:


> The thing is, the OP asked why the "haters"? Are there really that many more haters of NH methods than, say, haters of Western Pleasure? or Dressage? or Walking horse competitions? That is the question, are there more haters, and if so, why the vehemence of their position?


I think this is a good question.

I also think the thought that people are truly haters is because NH people fall the same way animal rights zealots do. If you are not with them you are just totally wrong, period, not chance of even being some what right.

Picking from your list - I bet most people are willing to say that watching an advanced level dressage test be performed by a well trained horse is breath taking. Most people are also willing to say that there are some training techniques that are not agreeable but that does not make the whole dressage world a horrible place, etc.

Most people have no issue with people who use some funky stick when they spin their horse in circles.
Most people do not care if you like getting additional learning by using some DVD set that you paid a small fortune for.
Most people do not care if you like attending clinics given by your favorite trainer.

What people hate is being told if you do not do it the way my guru says you are wrong, wrong, wrong. Period. 
Just like those people who insist if you do not agree with everything the animal rights group is feeding you are must think it is OK to abuse animals. Or the people who insist that because one dressage famous person does something they do not agree with then all dressage is bad.

Hmmm, I am rambling.....



Shadomoon said:


> I don't aggressively lunge my horses. My horses' reward for good behavior isn't leisure and I certainly don't growl at my horses. But if this is what works for you that is great! I think we use the tools we are given. Sometimes we are arrogant, sometimes we are ignorant, and sometimes we get it right. We should accept that there is good horsemanship and bad horsemanship but it is a matter of opinion on both. We all view different things as bad or good.


Posts like this make it sound like the person who made the post is the only one smart enough to get it right and the rest of us are "arrogant and ignorant".



tinyliny said:


> This! I have to say that I have seen some dressage and hunter folks whose horses have abominable ground skills and cannot handle any sort of environment outside of a pristine arena. Owner's fault.


Just saying - some horses end up in the jobs they have because other jobs did not fit their personality.
Some horses Do. Not. Like life outside the ring. Trees moving means something is going to leap out and get them, etc. 
Not every horse has to be able to do every job. 
Just because a horse that is tense and nervous outside the ring does not mean it is a poorly trained animal. It might simply mean the horse has limitations and a job was found that the horse enjoys and thrives in and the people in this horse's life decided there was no reason to try to make a square peg fit into a round hole and make this horse accept that a trail ride really is fun.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

It really bugs me that the walking horse shows were included in the haters rant. Have you ever been to a show have you ever seen a horse once they have gotten done with it? have you seen the front legs lathered with mustard oil or diesel fuel or what ever skin burning agent they can find then lets put a bag over it to further bake it into the skin now lets take some chains and have it so they beat the stuff further into the leg....alll this to get them to do that ugly high step walk now pad the feet on with some hoof ruining shoes that is what a walking show is all about now its a predominate southern Us thing. So please dont put them into your hating just to hate category.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Luv, they belong in that category because you can not paint the whole industry with the same brush.
Add that the TWH is not the problem, it is the trainers that are the problem.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Alwaysbehind said:


> Luv, they belong in that category because you can not paint the whole industry with the same brush.
> Add that the TWH is not the problem, it is the trainers that are the problem.


Its 95% of the industry in the TWHBEA Have you read any of the stuff on the Shelby shows their big show it has been shut down more than once because of this If you would see the horses you'd paint the whole industry. I agree its the trainers owners and the breed reg thats to blame for it the TWH is a great breed .


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## Shadomoon (Jul 15, 2011)

Alwaysbehind said:


> Posts like this make it sound like the person who made the post is the only one smart enough to get it right and the rest of us are "arrogant and ignorant".


You can take it whatever way you'd like but it is not my intention to make me sound like the only one smart enough to get it right. Believe me, I'm constantly learning and making mistakes. I have no issue admitting that. But to clarify on your post, I have no intention to sound like everyone else is wrong. I have a large ego but not one that large. 

And I agree with Luv on the TWH competitions (when it comes to the BIG LICK only). Weights and chains are a HUGE problem for me. But there are those that are trained without these and still have a Big Lick to them. It is the trainers and the owners that are the problem, but they are the ones running the competitions too. We debate this quite a lot on my gaited forums. But everyone is entitled to their opinion. I personally don't like it.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Shadomoon said:


> You can take it whatever way you'd like but it is not my intention to make me sound like the only one smart enough to get it right. Believe me, I'm constantly learning and making mistakes. I have no issue admitting that. But to clarify on your post, I have no intention to sound like everyone else is wrong. I have a large ego but not one that large.
> 
> And I agree with Luv on the TWH competitions (when it comes to the BIG LICK only). Weights and chains are a HUGE problem for me. But there are those that are trained without these and still have a Big Lick to them. It is the trainers and the owners that are the problem, but they are the ones running the competitions too. We debate this quite a lot on my gaited forums. But everyone is entitled to their opinion. I personally don't like it.


The big lick is what I am referring too.


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## Shadomoon (Jul 15, 2011)

I figured as such. Natural TWH competitions aren't bad at all (and aren't well known either). These "Big Lick" competitions aren't my cup of tea. That being said, people that have rode the "big lick" will often say it isn't very comfortable and TWH are generally a comfortable ride. So take it as you'd like. I rode a 5 gaited saddlebred who use to compete and it was horrible to ride, you have to post. Gaited to me isn't suppose to mean back jarring. But again, that is just an opinion.


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## Buckcherry (Nov 18, 2010)

Why are we putting NH people in one big box and making it out to seem like they are ALL closed minded followers. This is not like a Charles manson cult , CA, parelli and other NH aren't trying to make everyone think they are god because they have a technique that works. They are simply making it easier for people to understand horses, how to train them, how they think, why we teach them certain things. 

Because they were smart enough to turn their knowledge into a business with DVDs and books which turned out to make them money, doesn't mean that their initial intentions were anything other than trying to help people with their horse problems. 

I am not one of those people who thinks they know it all, which is why I turned to CA, because I wanted to learn more than just how to w/t/c and jump in an arena I wanted to train a horse and get him to do things I never thought possible. And it just so happens that along the way me and my horse have a great bond now and he looks forward to seeing me. 

But I also think it is possible for people to have a bond with their horse without using NH. And thats fine to, but like I've said we have different techniques because we have all different people and horses in this world and each and everyone of them learns a different way. Whats right for me might not be right for you and your horse. 

Another thing is don't knock it until you try it. How do you know what works for you unless you are willing to step out of your box and try something out of your comfort zone. And by that I don't just mean NH


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## Shadomoon (Jul 15, 2011)

Buckcherry said:


> Why are we putting NH people in one big box and making it out to seem like they are ALL closed minded followers. This is not like a Charles manson cult , CA, parelli and other NH aren't trying to make everyone think they are god because they have a technique that works. They are simply making it easier for people to understand horses, how to train them, how they think, why we teach them certain things.
> 
> Because they were smart enough to turn their knowledge into a business with DVDs and books which turned out to make them money, doesn't mean that their initial intentions were anything other than trying to help people with their horse problems.
> 
> ...


*applauds* Couldn't agree more!!!


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Shadomoon said:


> I figured as such. Natural TWH competitions aren't bad at all (and aren't well known either). These "Big Lick" competitions aren't my cup of tea. That being said, people that have rode the "big lick" will often say it isn't very comfortable and TWH are generally a comfortable ride. So take it as you'd like. I rode a 5 gaited saddlebred who use to compete and it was horrible to ride, you have to post. Gaited to me isn't suppose to mean back jarring. But again, that is just an opinion.


My first horse was an ex big lick he was your typical sored padded horse from age 2 until I got him at the age of 13 needless to say he was pretty messed up when you could ride him it was an awful ride he had 3 good years before I had to send him across the rainbow bridge he was in so much pain I had too. one of the worst days of my life.


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## goodhrs (Dec 30, 2009)

I have a problem with the Parelli games for the fact that if your not going to keep this horse forever, if someone would get him that isnt familar with the so called games or how to play them, the would think this horse was a lunatic in my opinion. All that duckin & diven. JMO.


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