# Kathryn's Potential Horse Critique Thread



## kathryn (Jan 16, 2009)

Hi, so I am starting horse shopping now officially. Yay! I have bumped my budget to a potential 10k/year fee, of which I could absolutely afford the first six months, but then the last six I would have to wait and see how the first six goes haha. 5k would be perfect and easily be within my budget.

So this guy would be 10k a year, oops which is at the absolute tippy top of my budget. What do you think? Here is a page with all his videos.

Marlaw Farms - "Islamorada" Video Gallery
http://marlawfarms.com/islamorada

I think he's gorgeous. Would he be worth 10k a year?


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## blush (Feb 10, 2007)

10k a year?? 
Are you buying or leasing? I'm confused haha.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kathryn (Jan 16, 2009)

Leasing for now, hoping to eventually buy.


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## hflmusicislife (Dec 15, 2010)

He's a nice mover and everything, but I wouldn't pay 10k a year for him. And I DEFINITELY wouldn't pay 30k to buy him. I'd imagine most people on here would run away screaming the second they saw the 30k price tag, but since I'm in MD too I know it's definitely not uncommon to see decent-quality horses going for that much all the time...
But anyways, I don't see why he'd be worth 10k a year. He's a decent mover, big, steady pace, all that good stuff. But is he a super flashy, "wow, look at him!" horse? No. At least I don't think so. I don't know how competitive you are and what you're looking for exactly, but I paid 3k for my mare and we've certainly done just fine. There's been plenty of occasions that we've kicked some of those 50k horses butts in schooling shows & low rated shows. Price doesn't always equal quality. There's gobs of big, okay movers out there for a lot less. 
I think for that much money you could do better. But that's just my opinion.


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## IslandWave (Nov 25, 2009)

So are you wanting to lease/buy a horse who you can show a lot at rated hunter/jumper shows? 

I wish they had conformation pics of him.


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## Hidalgo13 (Dec 24, 2010)

Beautiful horse! 10k? Weeeell, I'd keep looking.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

He's lovely. And if you want a packer for the AAs he may well be it. He actually goes *better* with a child/amateur than he does for a pro. 

10K/year for a lease is serious money. I *think* (I don't know, I'm no longer connected to what nice horses cost to lease.) that it's a lot of money for a horse to do the AAs. Please check, or have your trainer, etc., check what is reasonable for a nice horse to do the AAs.

I like this horse *way* more than the other horses you've posted; however, he's *way* more expensive than the other horses you've posted.


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## kathryn (Jan 16, 2009)

Yeah, I know for sure I could afford 5000 for six months, and for 10k for the year I would have to reevaluate at six months. 

A lot of my barn mates have horses around price tags like this, unfortunately for me, their parents pay for them. But I want to go to the same show as them and be competitive, and I have a very well paying internship this summer. 

Of course, the further we get from 10k the happier my wallet will be and the more likely it will be that I can continue my lease after the six months. Let me see what you think of some other horses. 

What about this guy?

Walter O? Hara





He doesn't seem to have lead changes, and seems to have a big scar on his left hip. But he is only 17k instead of 30k.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

If that's 17K, go for the other horse.


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

I would pass on that fella for much less than 17K. He looks very stiff and at that level, shouldn't his changes be pretty spot on?


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## kathryn (Jan 16, 2009)

Yeah, he didnt seem to have changes at all. He kept crossfiring and having to trot for a long time. I have my lesson on Tuesday and I will be able to talk to my trainer more.


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## kathryn (Jan 16, 2009)

What about this guy? I think he's stunninggggg.

http://www.equine.com/horses-for-sale/horse-ad-1071435.html


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

$30,000 horses - yikes. Totally different world than I'm used too. Beautiful horses, but extremely expensive.


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## blush (Feb 10, 2007)

^^ He may have a pretty color but I'm honestly not a huge fan on how he moves. Not a hunter that I would pay that kind of money for. And deffs not worth the 30k. 

His sire on the other hand, me likieeee.


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## kathryn (Jan 16, 2009)

See haha? I have no idea what I am looking for therefore I ask you guys! I am gonna have my trainer do most of the work, but she likes it if I find horses for her to look at, since I am one of FIVE clients she has looking for a horse right now. Haha


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## MoeMoe (May 27, 2011)

*Ehhh*

Ehh, not a big fan of any of them. Can I be honest with you? I will wait for a reply to that first before I go off on my thingy. Also, please don't take anything I say personally or as judgment, simply my opinion.
None of those horses look good. My OTTB could probably kick them all out of the water. I know what it is like to be at a competitive barn, and want to have a horse to match the others, but stop it! These horses have the warmblood price tag for what? A mediocre stride and barely engaged jump. None of these horses will last very long without injections and supplements, they haven't been taught to carry themselves, let alone a rider. They have been sawed on and it shows, they don't accept contact. I personally do not believe that a ribbon is worth more than correct riding, because it is a lot easier to buy a pretty picture with a few flaws that maybe the judges won't notice right away than paint one yourself, but realize that these horses have habits which will be hard to fix. 
Almost none of them can carry a rhythm, the riders really aren't doing much to help them and the jumps are too low for them to put much effort in, but they all look nappy. Bored and nappy. DO you need a warmblood? Have you looked at any tb's, qh's, or grade horses? Your horse doesn't have to be breed registered in order to compete, just within the USEF or USHJA.
Most of these people are commiting highway robbery by listing their horses at that price, which a lot of people will pay because of the trainer that trained the horse (they just want the "name" brand) even if they did an atrocious job.Trust me, look at some TB's (yes I am partial to them), it doesn't have to have come off the track, but some make the most lovely hunters. Once they develop rhythm, stride, and a little patients, they have a smooth canter that will just take your breath away (majority), their trot can be altered easily to have flash, they hunger for training and are extremely careful jumpers, knees nice and square. 
Once again, just my opinion, just my thoughts and my bias.


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## kathryn (Jan 16, 2009)

I just want something that will do great. Like I said, I don't really know what I am looking for, therefore I do go for the warmbloods. Since I don't know enough to pluck out one of the millions of TBs for the perfect one, I have to rely on what seems like a good horse based upon the price. Also, the more expensive ones are the ones that tend to have attractive pictures and videos, so they are the ones I can ask for feedback from. Its hard to ask for online feedback on "16hh bay hunter, great boy", since there are millions of those on Dreamhorse and such


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

I find his movement a little on the crude side. I think you can still do better. 

As far as the money side of this conversation goes, it is your money and if you want to spend it finding a rainbow colored horse that farts magic bubbles, by all means girl, have at it! *laugh*


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## kathryn (Jan 16, 2009)

I would love love love to find a horse around 5k for the year, that would be within the budget of the money I would make this summer, without me having to work off any of my barn charges or get a job during the school year, which is what I would have to do if I got a 10k horse. But I just am not having any luck finding any horse I like.


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## MoeMoe (May 27, 2011)

I very well may be able to help you out in that department, You seem to be located on the east coast, let me see who is down their, my friend just got done working at a few barns, and my old trainer is as well, she can do wonders with TB horses, and can seem to find just the right ones.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

I like this last one more than the others posted in the thread.

I am also not a huge fan of how we moves at the trot, but his jumping form is excellent, and he travels in a nice rhythm and carries himself to this fences. He is also eye-catching; a judge will remember his trip, and he will probably pin over some plain bays simply because of that. 

He is ring savvy enough to land on the correct lead rather than execute changes; which can be extremely nice as long as he also executes a clean change when he has to. 

I am not as shock or horrified by the prices as the other posters. Even though I've been out of the show hunters for 15 years, when I was still showing, 40 - 60K horses were pretty common in the Ammy Owner and AAs. We had 40K horses at our local affiliate shows as well. 

I suspect based on MoeMoe's comments that she comes from a different discipline, maybe jumpers and eventers, and is looking at the horses from that perspective. I do however, completely agree that the horse with only simple changes was outrageously priced. 

Finally, if your current plan is to lease something to gain mileage this year, and then consider buying, I think that's a great plan. The horse you'll want and need in a year or two is very different that the one you want or need now. Leasing a really reliable made horse for a season to gain experience, then buying something that requires a little more riding later on is sensible and wise.


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## MudPaint (Aug 14, 2010)

I like the last horse the most, though his trot reminds me of a QH trot, not a warmblood. However, I loved his round, he stay quiet and has a really smooth jump. The first one didn't have that "wow" factor... and the second one...I hope that was rider error, but either way not the right conformation for a hunter.

I don't have sticker shock either... it's the east coast. The good, made horses are expensive. If you want a horse to compete right now, you are def looking in the right price range.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

It seems to me that if you are willing and able to spend that kind of money you need to spend more time learning and researching what you want so you can better judge what you are going to get.

You CAN'T judge a horse based on the price. Period. If that's your criteria, chances are you will end up with something that you will find fault with.


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## kathryn (Jan 16, 2009)

Guys, I am not going to go out and buy the first horse I see that costs a million dollars because "he must be good." Believe me, I am TERRIFIED of spending this much money. But like I said, these expensive horses are the ones that have videos that I don't find fault with. All the horses on the East Coast, like they said, are either "FREE to a good home" or 30k+ warmbloods. There don't seem to be many in between 5k and 30k, plenty both below and above. The ones at are even like 12k are usually over 20 years old. And also like I said, a lot of horses don't have videos, so I can't ask you guys to critique them.


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## kathryn (Jan 16, 2009)

What about him?

Make A Point - American Thoroughbred - Equitation Horse for Sale













The last video is from only about a week ago. So he seems to run into his changes, and his sale price is 15k but his lease price is 10k, so that makes me go hmm.


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## blush (Feb 10, 2007)

I honestly like the thoroughbred the best out of all of them. Really cute. Andddd reasonably priced. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## christabelle (Feb 13, 2011)

Is the 10,000 including board? If not... Wow. I'd buy and pay for training. But I don't ride English, so there is a good chance I have no idea what I'm talkin' bout...lol. I know there are a couple warmbloods for sale on CL in San Diego
For less than that one year lease. Seems like you could pay shipping and get a trainer and still come out ahead.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## blush (Feb 10, 2007)

I'd honestly stay away from shipping in horses from other states especially when leasing. When horses go up for lease, most owners want to still have the horse around and be able to watch over the training and riding it gets. Leasing is tricky and things can get messy if you ship a horse in, don't want it anymore, and then try and ship it out. Go local when leasing, international when buying. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Personally-I like the TB. But, then, I have a hard time with spending $30k (or leasing for $10K) ANY horse, when you have no idea what you are even looking for. It sounds to me like perhaps you need to figure that out first. From what I am seeing-you just want something that will take a monkey to the winners circle. Relying on the internet advice of strangers who don't know you or your ability is a bit strange, IMO. Plus, you have not even seen any of these horses. You just seem to be searching for the ones with videos that look good, posting them here for us to say yay or nay to.,

I am just one who is of the opinion that it is much more rewarding to actually have to work with a horse to achieve a winning performance. I do realize there are plenty out there who disagree, but I guess I like a bit more of a challenge.

And yes, I do western now, but used to do H/J in MD. So, I do know a thing or 2 about it. I can also tell you, that the trainer I used in MD has 2 TB's she got for FREE that are winning. One went to the International in DC a few times even. So many definitely have the ability.


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

10K for the lease? Is it common for leases to go for so high? That is 2/3 rds of the purchase price.


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## CecilliaB (Jan 21, 2010)

I'm with Franknbeans. I'd rather create a wonderful horse from nothing for the cost of buying it "finished". Actually I find the process almost more rewarding then the outcome 

Unfortunately none of those horses did much for me or stood out and certainly not at that price point. Honestly I believe the decision is between you and your trainer. If you aren't sure what to look for it's important to figure that part out first. Watch other horses at your level and make your Must, want, would like lists. Then you can look threw prospects and make a short list to share with your trainer.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

I'm thinking I should buy some nice working hunters over here and sell them in america. heck those jumps are tiny!

You can buy a nice working hunter over here for under £5k, you can buy a HOYS winner for £20k


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## blush (Feb 10, 2007)

^^ so basically the horses you find there are in the same price point here. 5k in euros = $10k, 20k in euros = $40k here.
Pretty much the price range she's looking at.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

I'm not in Euro's, I'm in Pound stirling. £5k here is about $8000 and that is to buy not to lease.

HOYS is the biggest show over here if a horse has won at hoys then there is no better horse that year. So you are not buying a reasonable horse you would be buying the best of the best.


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## inaclick (Jun 6, 2010)

Edit: hm i got confused with all currencies but here's the latest currency rates!


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## MudPaint (Aug 14, 2010)

The last horse has the potential to be a nice Hunter, but he needs some finesse and will certainly need to be actively ridden on the course. You'll probably have to re school the lead changes too. You'll be able to compete right away, but may not pin as well as you would on a Made horse. His lease price being so close to his sale price is fishy. If you ended up really liking him, I'd consider purchasing if it's possible.


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

Euros? Faye doesn't live in Ireland which uses Euros, she lives in Wales which is in Great Britain which uses Pounds. Completely different currency. 

OP, have you talked to your instructor about what you should be looking for if you're unsure about it yourself?

Edit: And while I typed everyone else said what I said, bit slow tonight.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

blush I should add that even if I were dealing in Euros (which I am very familiar with as I do travel regularly), 5000Euros is only $7000 dollars.


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## blush (Feb 10, 2007)

Okay, sorry thought you were dealing in euros! No need to jump down my throat guys!  

Yes, still the prince range with the exchange is similar to what she is looking at. Similar but not exactly the same. I can sympathize with the OP as decent horses up here in Alberta are around the same price range. the horse market is different everywhere and we have to deal with what we are given, which is high prices for average horses.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

I will also just add to the OP-just because you board in a "show" barn doesn't mean you have to keep up with them either. Some you never will, no matter how much you spend
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

blush the range isnt similar, the OP is concidering paying $30k for a mediocre horse who's schooling leaves a lot to be desired. you could pay $30k over here for something that has WON at the best show in the country, that is absolutly push button and ready to go out and win. 

Admittedly the show horses here in the UK actualy use thier back ends and work into a contact instead of dragging themselves round on thier forehand but I'm sure it wouldnt take very much at all to get a horse to do that just ride it with no contact and let it dawdle, mind you they might take one look at the size of the jumps and fall over laughing concidering our 14hh ponies are expected to jump in excess of 3ft ( large M&M whp expected to do 3ft 6).


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## blush (Feb 10, 2007)

I know that you had mentioned the horses going for 30k over there are winning a big show, but we have to deal with what we HAVE over here. I'm pretty sure the OP doesn't want to import a horse from there just to lease. She needs to look locally and try to figure out something with the horses she's provided. She can't make a horse found over there magically appear here...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

I realize that I am not a mod, but please-the price of hunters in UK, as well as currency exchanges mean nothing to this discussion. Faye-it may well be that the BEST horse in the UK who has won there, would get its butt beat here because they ARE trained differently. You are trying to compare apples and oranges, which is NOT the topic we are discussing.


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## kathryn (Jan 16, 2009)

Ok guys, not to get snippy, but I don't appreciate you guys keep telling me that what I am looking for is wrong. 

I am almost 19, so I cannot show in the Children's anymore, which means I will be showing in the Adult divisions, against all the adults who have been showing forever. I pay for every single thing myself. College starts again in the fall, in September, so I don't have forever to train a horse, nor do I have the skills necessary. I want a horse that will teach me things, so that EVENTUALLY I will have the skills to get that "great, rewarding feeling" that comes from training a horse yourself. As of right now, I want a horse I can show now and not be embarassed on. I have a very well paying job this summer, so I can afford it. I am not buying a 30k horse. I could never afford that. But I could afford a 10k a year lease.

What is wrong with wanting the ability to show and win? What's wrong with wanting to fit in with my barn? If I am willing to spend the money and effort, why are you guys telling me I am wrong? I do have a trainer, and she will have the most say in what I do, but she also wants me to succeed. If I am spending all this money and time, I want it to be a sure thing that I will do well, not a shot in the dark at a 1000 dollar rescue that will magically turn out to be the best thing that happened to me.

I am not looking to buy, since I am only looking to lease I need a horse that can do what I want now, because I don't have time to train.

I am sorry if you guys get offended by this, but I am a little frustrated by everyone telling me what I want is wrong. Please understand that we are in different situations.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

what I am trying to point out is that for 30k the OP can to a hell of a lot better perticularly if willing to travel. Infact I'd say for 30k she might well concider coming over here to look for a horse.

Oh and just to point out that working hunter in the uk and your hunters over there dont seem to be all that different, you are looking for a well put together horse who moves well, would give a good comfortable days hunting and can give a classy smooth clear round

Kathryn, you posted whilst I was typing, I get what you are saying but going beyond your means just to keep up with other people is not good. I personaly would stick well within what you can afford so that you wont struggle to pay for all the needed extras. You can do far better then those horses even from my brief scan of the US sales sites.


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## kathryn (Jan 16, 2009)

Faye, I am not looking to buy. I am looking within a 200 mile radius of my barn, because I am only looking to lease. If I ever was looking for spend 30k on a horse, you can bet I would travel all around the world.

Its not just to keep up with my barn, but the entire community around here. Everyone winters in Ocala, everyone has 5 figure warmbloods. This might be a character flaw, but I am very competitive, and I like to win. Not just in riding, but in everything. All my life I've played competitive club sports, in soccer and volleyball. Even in college, I am still on the competitive volleyball team as well as the equestrian team. I don't like doing things halfway, if I am doing something I want to do it and win.

I've ridden my entire life without showing. My senior year of high school, I finally joined my barns equestrian team, and did 3 or 4 shows last summer. I rode a giant strawberry roan draft cross, and managed to do well in schooling shows, so I know that I can still be competitive without a high priced warmblood. But why wear soccer cleats to your volleyball game? I want to be prepared for what I want to accomplish, and around here that is hunter warmbloods.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Ok-first, you are on here asking for opinions. You are getting them. I did not say what you are looking for is wrong. What I said was that, IMO, it is "wrong", (misguided, perhaps) to be looking without knowing what you are looking for!

I also guess I have never personally known someone who had the ability necessary to ride a top horse, in the circuit you want to be competitive in, know how they should feel, cadence, changes, finding their spot, etc, without knowing how to teach one, at least something, even if just a refresher. After all, every time you are with a horse you are training it. 

If you only have fun if you are winning-go for it.


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## CecilliaB (Jan 21, 2010)

Would you mind a greener horse instead of retraining poor training or bad habits instilled by other owners/trainers?

From what you posted I think that may be a decision you need to consider when looking. That would open up a whole other box to look in  I am not saying find something completely green, but maybe just recently started over fences or showing lower level that you could bring along yourself. Your money might go a little further to and you are already set with a trainer to coach you both along.

To me a greener horse with great ability and potential is better then a horse thats been forced to perform. There really are horses that are good at their jobs and ones that just aren't. I just didn't see allot of potential in your listings.


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## kathryn (Jan 16, 2009)

CecilliaB, if you guys do think that these horses have poor training and bad habits, that is good for me to know. 

I think what I am looking for would fall into two categories.

A 12-15 year old horse that knows the deal and can teach me that I would lease for a year or two then move on.

Or a 7 or 8 year old that shows potential that I can eventually buy.

For the first type, size etc doesn't matter that much. But for the second type, I would be looking at it as if I would buy it, so I would be more more exacting in what I want. For example, I think a 16hh horse would be a tad on the small side for me, and I'd much prefer something closer to 17hh if I was going to buy.

It is very unlikely that I would ever own a 30k horse, unless of course it was over a 3 year lease that I would eventually pay off. But maybe a younger horse that is 15k, I could buy outright. Not right now, but maybe in a year.

Another reason I want a lease is to test drive horse ownership while I am in college. That is why I absolutely do not want to buy at this time, I have no idea how this will even work out. If I get a 6 month lease, that would be 3 months of chill summer leasing then three months of hectic school time leasing. So I def don't want to buy at this time and have to worry about selling if it doesn't work out.


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## Juna (Apr 4, 2010)

I'm with you, kathryn. I can completely understand the desire for a horse that doesn't need any further training or tuning up in order to show and win. And I understand not wanting to start in the small shows just to bring along a green horse. It doesn't make me a poor rider just because I can't or don't want to train a horse. I'm looking for a 12 - 15 year old warmblood exactly like you. I want a push button, completely trained, unflappable show gelding in the 17 hh range and it must be a warmblood. They are hard to find! lol Good luck with your search!


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## CecilliaB (Jan 21, 2010)

Ok, that made perfect sense. It also sounds like you have laid out some great criteria for your mental list of what your looking for. 

I think entirely to long term, thats where I may have come off wrong in my posts. I really know nothing about leases other but I really do believe you can do WAY better if you keep looking. Or take these to your trainer and she can go over each one with you and you two can discuss the pros and cons.

For 10k to own I would expect a whole lot more, for 10k just to lease for a year I would expect MUCH MUCH more. I can't believe that one horse only did simple changes thats just ridiculous for what they are asking. The last horse had a funny way of going, he looked crooked to me on the indoor video(maybe rider error) and then looked strung out and rushed in his changes. In the outdoor video I liked his trot and canter but then it looked like he practically fell after each fence.

There are other MUCH more skilled and trained riders that could do a better critique of them  I just know those are big turn offs for me.


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## sullylvr (Aug 13, 2009)

Look in Kentucky!! Haha this may not be within your means but one of my friend got lucky and is FREE leasing for the summer. hes a TB but built like a warmblood, auto changes, has done intermediate level eventing, but he's 15 and has slight arthritis so they're letting him slow down. She still jumps him ~ 3' and he has a bid acti e stride! She had to ship him for the summer to where we live too.. Just throwing some ideas out there!


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## kathryn (Jan 16, 2009)

What about this guy? He is 4 hours away but only 10k sale price and he seems nice. 16.2, chestnut, chrome, all my faves haha. Plus I am OBSESSED with his name, its adorable.

Great First Horse, Wonderful Teacher, Many Show Miles | Buy this Horse at Equine.com


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## kathryn (Jan 16, 2009)

Veritas, 10yo 16.2 Bay Warmblood Mare, 15k
Fantastic 3ft Hunter or Equitation Horse Must Sell | Buy this Horse at Equine.com


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

I'm not a hunter or english rider, but I do like that bay mare. If the owner is leaving for a year, maybe they will be open to a year lease?

Zoolander looks nice enough and seems to have good training, but I'm not a fan of his neck.


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## DeeSmith (Dec 8, 2010)

kathryn said:


> CecilliaB, if you guys do think that these horses have poor training and bad habits, that is good for me to know.
> 
> I think what I am looking for would fall into two categories.
> 
> ...


Hi, 

I really don't want to seem mean to rude in what i'm saying but sadly it's the truth, but i think you need have a good long think about what you actually need, because if you over horse yourself it could be a major problem especially as you have a hectic college timetable ahead (i know the feeling!) 

I'm saying this out of experience, you need to ask your self if you have the time to be training a younger horse? or if you get a older horse the extra money on caring for them if they have any health issues? 

you also have to ask yourself if you want to learn from a horse or teach a horse? because no amount of riding lessons (i don't know your background so i'm just covering all bases) will prepare you for teaching a horse, trust me I've got two young horses.. it really takes it out of you... 

all the horses you have suggested are beautiful horses but i feel like you could maybe find something a bit cheaper? maybe not a warmblood...? have you looked at other breeds? i'm in england and Irish Sport Horses make brilliant hunters/showjumpers... i'm not sure if they're popular where you are? 

and also make sure you know what the horse is like from the ground, because groundwork is the key to every rider/horse combo... because you have to take care this horse regardless of the ridden stuff, so if your fairly new to handling horses then maybe a more gentle older horse would be better...

this all depends on experience... you haven't say much about what experience level you are at? 

and remember very one want to compete with each other it's natural, but if you do end up getting a warmblood that fits the look and you over horse your self you could end up hurt or endangering the horse/other people... you have to find a horse to suit you and your lifestyle not other peoples because at the end of the day it's going to be your horse (whether you lease or not) you going to have to look after it, ride it not them. 

i hope i didn't seem rude/mean just trying to help out! 

Happy Horse Hunting!
Deanna x


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## christabelle (Feb 13, 2011)

The bay mare sure is pretty. Maybe a tad shorter than what you are looking for, but she looks (to me) like the best one offered up here. Sounds like the owner is in a good situation to consider a lease too!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hidalgo13 (Dec 24, 2010)

i really like Zoolander. The bay mare is really nice too but she seemed to lack a bit of power over the jumps. Probably because they were rather high and she isn't a giant! LOL  
Zoolander and the bay mare are much better. The other horses you posted were more expensive and although they were pretty to look at, I agree with most that they weren't great movers considering the price tag. 
However, with each horse you post, they're gettign better and better. Keep looking, and then choose your favs and show them to your trainer like you said you would. 

Don't worry with lots of looking you'll find an awesome REAL finished horse for your price range. Good horses may be expensive in your area, but there is always someone who's ready to take advantage of that and put a higher price tag on a pretty horse who isn't actually worth THAT much.


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## VelvetsAB (Aug 11, 2010)

_Kathryn,_

_I think you are doing the right thing by trying to find a (made) lease horse. First, it prepares you for horse ownership, when and if you want to take the leap, and it gives you a chance to see if you can compete competitively against the adults. You are being responsible in still putting school first, but not wanting the horse to suffer because you do not have the time._


_There have been several potentials that you have posted, and you are headed in the right direction._

_The bay mare that you just posted looks like she has an awkward jump when she goes over the fences...but maybe thats just me. She almost looks like she stalls going over the fences._

_Zoolander looked really nice going around his course. He got most of his leads in the air, but it almost looked like it was a lot of work to keep him going at the right pace. While his movement seemed fine in the flat class, he was poking his nose out in front of him, instead of being on the aids, and doing the nice long and low hunter thing. That could be rider error though...._

_"Make a Point" looks like he travels and jumps slightly crooked. He really seems to pull down after the jumps as well. He is cute though, but thats not everything..._

_The paint... I like him. But I agree with Cori and think that his movement isn't as nice as it could/should be for this price point._

_Pass on the 17K one! Pass pass pass._

_The first horse you posted gave his rider some lovely rounds. Although he didn't get every lead over the fence, his changes looked pretty decent. Best of the bunch you posted in this thread._


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

I am dismayed at the negative and unconstructive nature of some of the comments here, as well as the total unconcern for the OP's actual wishes, goals and discipline. 

Kathryn, please feel free to PM any other info about horses you're interested in and I'll be happy to give you an opinion, without commenting on the wisdom of your goals, budget, search criteria or suggesting that the horse should perform like another type of horse altogether.


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## Juna (Apr 4, 2010)

^^^ +1 ! Thank you, maura!


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

maura said:


> I am dismayed at the negative and unconstructive nature of some of the comments here, as well as the total unconcern for the OP's actual wishes, goals and discipline.
> 
> Kathryn, please feel free to PM any other info about horses you're interested in and I'll be happy to give you an opinion, without commenting on the wisdom of your goals, budget, search criteria or suggesting that the horse should perform like another type of horse altogether.


I completely agree. Why must we all focus on the price point? If the OP can afford this, why not? I can afford a $400 horse. So I ride a $300 horse and give him extra treats *laugh* Why does it matter how much she spends! 

Some of you have come off with a truly nasty attitude. The OP asked for opinions on horses, not her personal situation, her school schedule, her mindset or her riding ability.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

maura said:


> I am dismayed at the negative and unconstructive nature of some of the comments here, as well as the total unconcern for the OP's actual wishes, goals and discipline.
> 
> Kathryn, please feel free to PM any other info about horses you're interested in and I'll be happy to give you an opinion, without commenting on the wisdom of your goals, budget, search criteria or suggesting that the horse should perform like another type of horse altogether.


This is a fantastic offer - Maura really knows what she's talking about from experience. She is very kind and thoughtful in her posts and PM replies. 
Kathryn, I hope you aren't off-put by this thread. If you hadn't stated your age, I would have guessed you much older (read: mature) based on your replies. 
Welcome to the HF. Hope you stick around!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## VelvetsAB (Aug 11, 2010)

_It does make me second guess when I finally go to buy my own horse if I would post a similar thread..._

_I would also offer for you to PM me, but Maura has more experience then I, and I bow to her. LOL_


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Velvets, your reply (along with a few others) was very helpful, I found.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kathryn (Jan 16, 2009)

Thank you guys, I really appreciated most of the posts in this thread, I don't even mind those who disagreed as long as they did it respectfully :wink: I definitely appreciate the offers to PM, which rest assured, I shall take you up on. I understand my situation isn't every horsey-persons, but it is my situation. Thank you for you guys who provided thoughtful critiques of the horses I posted. 

Tomorrow I have a lesson, so I will be able to talk to my trainer face to face about our shopping. Hopefully since she has a few other clients also looking, we can be able to team up and go further away that just the usual radius around our barn, so I can extend my search even further to try to find a great horse.


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## MoeMoe (May 27, 2011)

Haha, Maura how did you know? I am an Eventer, and I guess I do have a rather jaded view


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## Gidget (Jan 19, 2010)

oops, I didn't see the rest of the videos...of all the horses I see I would pick Zoolander.

I really liked the bay mare but I agree that she looks like she is lacking some power over the jumps.

I also like the TB but he kinda did this head thing..not sure if the rider was jerking it over or if it's a habit.....he is handsome.


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## MicKey73 (Dec 26, 2010)

I like the offer from the HF member who lives in your area.  Word of mouth and personal contacts is a great way of finding what you're looking for! Us horse people are always talking about other horse people and other horses. With a few people helping keep an eye out, I bet you find an un-advertised gem that's just what you're looking for. Good Luck!!


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

maura said:


> I am not as shock or horrified by the prices as the other posters. Even though I've been out of the show hunters for 15 years, when I was still showing, 40 - 60K horses were pretty common in the Ammy Owner and AAs. We had 40K horses at our local affiliate shows as well.


I too am not shocked at all by the prices.
Not that I have that to spend myself, but I certainly see nothing wrong with spending it if you have the money.

I am horrified at how many people insist that because they enjoyed buying a green bean and training it that everyone else who does not do that is stupid and wasting their money, etc.



maura said:


> Finally, if your current plan is to lease something to gain mileage this year, and then consider buying, I think that's a great plan. The horse you'll want and need in a year or two is very different that the one you want or need now. Leasing a really reliable made horse for a season to gain experience, then buying something that requires a little more riding later on is sensible and wise.


I totally agree!
It sounds like you have thought this out and are doing the right thing.

Be sure to be upfront with everyone when discussing contracts if you are planning to do six months with option to extend for another six months instead of just doing a year.




franknbeans said:


> I realize that I am not a mod, but please-the price of hunters in UK, as well as currency exchanges mean nothing to this discussion.


There are no hunters in the UK like we have them here in the US. Hunters are a US thing. (Or so I have been told time and time again by people from that side of the world making fun of US hunters.)




maura said:


> I am dismayed at the negative and unconstructive nature of some of the comments here, as well as the total unconcern for the OP's actual wishes, goals and discipline.


I agree!

This is another fine example of how so many horse people are unable to see that the different than what they do is not wrong.




maura said:


> Kathryn, please feel free to PM any other info about horses you're interested in and I'll be happy to give you an opinion, without commenting on the wisdom of your goals, budget, search criteria or suggesting that the horse should perform like another type of horse altogether.


Maura is a great help, Kathryn. Do PM her. (She has helped me a ton.)




MoeMoe said:


> Haha, Maura how did you know? I am an Eventer, and I guess I do have a rather jaded view


Jaded?
I do not get the jaded thought.
Close minded is a better term.
Are you really thinking that a good quality, can pack around an ammy adult their first year out eventer horse does not go for big bucks?


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

maura said:


> I am dismayed at the negative and unconstructive nature of some of the comments here, as well as the total unconcern for the OP's actual wishes, goals and discipline.
> 
> Kathryn, please feel free to PM any other info about horses you're interested in and I'll be happy to give you an opinion, without commenting on the wisdom of your goals, budget, search criteria or suggesting that the horse should perform like another type of horse altogether.


Thank you, Maura. Excellent synopsis.

OP, I second, third, and fourth the others' opinions about contacting Maura. She really knows her stuff.

My last two horses have been free. If I had the money, I'd be_ more_ than happy to buy a made packer. I don't understand the reverse snobbery, nor the people making judgment calls on the OP.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Here's the problem with the arithmatic of buying a 2500 - 5000 greenie and "bringing it along yourself." Say you find a fabulous individual capable of doing the As for $5K. It's not easy, but it can be done. Campaigning in the As, in either the rated divisions or the zone award divisions costs $25 - $30 *thousand* per year on the East Coast of the US. (That includes board, lessons, coaching, entry fees, hauling, braiding, stabling, etc. - showing 2 - 3X per month.) So you could put two years on your fabulous quality $5K greenie; have $65K invested, and still not have the made packer to do the AOs or AAs or adult eq that the OP says she wants to. That's assuming your 5K greenie can go directly into the As, more likely, he'll spend a year or two at the local level and you'll have $75 - 80K invested. And 3 years of your time. 

Not to mention that trying to train a horse to this level when you've never ridden a made horse at this level is like trying to build a silicone chip after having one very carefully described to you. In this scenario, leasing for six months for 10 - 20K makes tons more sense. 

I say this as someone who made all of my own horses; the little grey horse in my avatar cost $1000. However, my stated goal with that little guy was *very* different than the OP's stated goal. I also did show a couple of "homemade" $2500. specials in the unrated divisions creditably (low ribbons.) However, if had the money and the opportunity, I would have jumped at the chance to lease a nice made horse for a season to gain mileage and experience.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

When bringing on a green horse, you also have little idea of what their potential will be. I would absolutely buy a made horse if I had the budget for it. 

good luck in your horse quest OP!


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## FoxyRoxy1507 (Jul 15, 2008)

i like the bay mare the best.. she seemed to lack power but she did not struggle so that may be that she's not really even trying over those sized fences which are good. the chestnut... you would have to do some retraining bc he is running around with his head up in the air like a giraffe which will not help with winning ribbons at the shows  but he is cute. 

the other horses bleh... not a fan


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

maura said:


> Here's the problem with the arithmatic of buying a 2500 - 5000 greenie and "bringing it along yourself." Say you find a fabulous individual capable of doing the As for $5K. It's not easy, but it can be done. Campaigning in the As, in either the rated divisions or the zone award divisions costs $25 - $30 *thousand* per year on the East Coast of the US. (That includes board, lessons, coaching, entry fees, hauling, braiding, stabling, etc. - showing 2 - 3X per month.) So you could put two years on your fabulous quality $5K greenie; have $65K invested, and still not have the made packer to do the AOs or AAs or adult eq that the OP says she wants to. That's assuming your 5K greenie can go directly into the As, more likely, he'll spend a year or two at the local level and you'll have $75 - 80K invested. And 3 years of your time.
> 
> Not to mention that trying to train a horse to this level when you've never ridden a made horse at this level is like trying to build a silicone chip after having one very carefully described to you. In this scenario, leasing for six months for 10 - 20K makes tons more sense.
> 
> I say this as someone who made all of my own horses; the little grey horse in my avatar cost $1000. However, my stated goal with that little guy was *very* different than the OP's stated goal. I also did show a couple of "homemade" $2500. specials in the unrated divisions creditably (low ribbons.) However, if had the money and the opportunity, I would have jumped at the chance to lease a nice made horse for a season to gain mileage and experience.


Bingo. 
Same thing goes (off-topic, but along the same line) for breeding for a performance baby vs. buying for $10k. You're just spreading the payments out. 
I am NOT shocked at the prices the OP stated. To be competitive at that level ... Well, its expensive. You might luck out and with the right eye get a great prospect, but as Maura said, after campaigning and training, you're just spreading your money out. 
If the OP wants a made horse and knows her skill level and what she wants to accomplish... I say kudos to her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## upnover (Jan 17, 2008)

Wow, how did I miss all of this??? 

Here's something a lot of people who aren't in the hunter show world don't understand.... HUNTERS ARE EXPENSIVE.


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## coffeeaddict (Jun 18, 2010)

I'm not shocked by the prices either, I am however a little shocked at the LEASE prices. I can see paying big bucks for a good hunter, but I would have a hard time paying 10k just for a lease that would leave me horse-less at the end of the year, and then needing to fork over another 10k or more just to keep riding. 

Spending 20-30k on a purchase seems more reasonable to me that spending half that on a lease and then ending up needing to purchase after anyway. Unless the lease price can be subtracted from the horse's total price and the option to buy is available.

But, it's not my money, and I do hope you're able to find something that suits you Kathryn. I'm not knocking your choices, just wanting to point out that leasing may cost you more in the long run if the terms aren't right.


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## upnover (Jan 17, 2008)

Sorry, i accidently pushed "Enter" before my post was done, then HF wouldn't let me just edit! So here's the rest of my post. 

Wow, how did I miss all of this??? 

Here's something a lot of people who aren't in the hunter show world don't understand.... HUNTERS ARE EXPENSIVE. As Maura has pointed out it takes years and LOTS AND LOTS of expensive show miles to get a made hunter. You realize throwing down 5k a week on a show is nothing for the top rated circuits, right? There is a girl at our barn who is looking for a made 3"6 horse whose budget was $125,000 and she couldn't find one that wasn't semi green, not competitive, or have soundness issues. That's right, 6 digits. Couldn't find one. That my friend, is the nature of the A Circuit hunter world. Are there some $3k horses out there who win a bit? Sure. It happens. But the vast vast majority of the horses that are out there showing are a heck of a lot more then that. The AAs are a tough division and unfortunately takes a bit money and a decent horse to do well. 

The going rate for a lease is 1/3 of the horse's purchase price. This is tricky b/c the market is down in that people are reluctant to buy (should the market go down even more and the horse loses value), but are eager to lease. That makes lease prices a little tricky right now. The first horse you posted? The grey one? That did the PRE-GREENS (tough division) in OCALA (VERY tough circuit) with AARON VALE (big name trainer) for $10k? Not a bad deal at all. I think that horse was lovely and an excellent deal. That would be my first choice for someone in your shoes. I also really liked that Zoolander horse! My main question with him is 1) how high can he jump competitively and 2) what kind of maintenance does he need at this age? 

To the OP- There are a lot of people on this forum who aren't familiar with the hunter show world. I don't think 10k for a lease is anything out of the ordinary. In fact, technically that's just a $30k horse, that really isn't a lot in the show world, ESP on the east coast. I think you're being responsible in what you want and what you can handle and your plan seems to be good. I'm a little disappointed that your trainer is so busy and can't help a whole lot. I wish I were in your area because I could help you out just a little more! Keep looking and you're always welcome to send me a PM if you need another opinion (although Maura's is quite good despite being out of the show ring for a few years!). Hopefully with the buying market as it is right now, you might be able to find something. Keeping my fingers crossed for you!


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## upnover (Jan 17, 2008)

coffeeaddict said:


> I'm not shocked by the prices either, I am however a little shocked at the LEASE prices. I can see paying big bucks for a good hunter, but I would have a hard time paying 10k just for a lease that would leave me horse-less at the end of the year, and then needing to fork over another 10k or more just to keep riding.



The girl I mentioned in my post above? Couldn't find a good 3"6 hunter for less then $125,000? Ended up leasing a horse instead. Found a great one... at $40,000. For the year. Traveled the country and is won everything. 

John Madden said it best when talking about horse/show prices "it's a crazy reality we live in. but it's our reality."


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## coffeeaddict (Jun 18, 2010)

Upandover, that I find insane. But again, not my money. If someone really wants to burn 40k on a lease and they can afford to do so then go for it. 

If I had an extra 40k I would no doubt spend it on things dog related or horse related. Not a lease, but it would still go towards things that other people might think is crazy. 

I do think though, that when it comes to 40k leases and $125,000 horses, what's really the point? Blue ribbons? If the only goal is to win and they are not in the horse business in some way, I can't really wrap my head around that. 

Having said that, this thread makes me think training dogs is for the low rollers and I should have gone into horse training instead! haha. More power to anyone that can get someone to cut them a check for $125,000 for a horse.


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## upnover (Jan 17, 2008)

Well that's why I like John's quote so much. Yeah, some 13 year old's horse budget is almost as much as my house. Um, Seriously? that's crazy and a little ridiculous. Esp when you consider that there are people in this world who live day and day out with no food or running water. BUT the reality is, when you're competing in the top circuits with the top junior riders that's just what it takes to play the game. 

Here's the thing though... the less there is of a desirable item, the more expensive it is right? A good 3"6 horse is hard to come by. So of all the horses out there, you weed out any horse that can't jump 3"6. That's actually a lot. Because that doesn't mean they can fling themselves over 3"6, they need to be able to easily jump it round, snapping their knees up evenly and cracking their back over it. Every time. They also need the length of stride to FLOAT down the lines with at least a 14-16 ft stride and make it look easy. How many horses can do that? The average stride out there is supposed to be 12 ft, I find that to be a little long for a lot of horses. And the horse needs to be able to coast around a course like this every time they jump. Oh, and stay sound. AND, the horse needs to be a good mover. Floaty trot/canter with little to no knee/hock action, moves well in the shoulder with a long and free stride. The vast majority of horses out there DON'T do this well. A hunter needs to have the right mindset. It's a hunter, not a jumper. they need to do this in a relaxed and pleasant manner. No rushing no getting hot. So what have we got? A horse that can easily and calmly coast around a 3"6 course on a 14 ft stride with the right movement while staying sound, nailing its perfect distances, get all of his lead changes... OH yeah, and be able to do that with an amateur. Oh, and hunters are all about pretty. So it needs to be an attractive horse.  They aren't a dime a dozen. Believe me, I horse shop all the time. The ones that can are sought out by people who think nothing of throwing down several thousand $$$ a week for ONE show. I believe Steven Spielburg's daughter who owns Rhumba (who won the Int Hunter Derby with John French last year) bought him for over $700,000. And she shows in the Children's (3") last I heard. That's a heck of a lot of money for a 3" horse. But... he's a heck of a lot of horse. Most people who can afford to spend the winter horse showing in Florida spending tens of thousands of dollars a month don't think much of spending 6 digits for a good horse.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Lol at this thread.
I agree with maura and upnover completely and imo 10k is CHEAP for a competitive, sound A circuit horse for a year lease.

If you don't like or understand the high end of A circuit and international competition and the associated prices then simply refrain from posting on these threads. You don't see anyone here on $5000 horse shopping threads ridiculing the op because of their budget.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## coffeeaddict (Jun 18, 2010)

upnover, I'm sure SS would spend three times that on his daughter's horse if she wanted. But that's a celebrity for you and I'm not shocked at all. I expect them to blow money like it's water.

I won't apologize for thinking that buying a couple blue ribbons for over 100k is nuts, because in reality that's what they are doing. Buying blue ribbons. Does it really mean anything at that point? Did they earn it or just buy it? 

I guess the whole thing just seems like a bunch of distorted priorities to me....but this is coming from someone who spent about half that remodeling her kitchen and I'm sure some people think I have distorted priorites for doing that. Value is most likely in the eye of the beholder. 

I do hope that Kathryn is able to find what she wants. I don't judge her choice to spend what she's spending, my original post was only to point out that leasing might be more expensive for her in the long run.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

There are people out there that buy $5000 wallets. Priorities differ from person to person. Some people wouldn't pay to have their nails done ever, and others maintain expensive artificials. People don't have to drive Porches or Caddillacs but prefer the luxury and satisfaction over a Honda. Still others eat out and wine and dine often. 
I cannot believe that some here are posting opinions on the OP's budget. The OP obviously worked hard for her money and knows what she wants - who are we to judge her monetary priorities? Really? Some people WANT to compete big. It isn't the ribbon, it's the sense of accomplishment and prestige - since WHEN is ambition like this a bad thing?! Just because you (generic you) don't want to compete at a certain level, or can't fathom spending $150k+ on a horse doesn't mean that there aren't those that do and will. Obviously there is a market for these horses - for a reason.
Can we go back to helping the OP, not deciding how she wants to spend her money? 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

Yes, lets do that. Kathryn, what else do you have for us. I would offer you my boy. He clears 3'6" cattle drench....problem is, he jumps like a billy goat. *laugh*


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## coffeeaddict (Jun 18, 2010)

> It isn't the ribbon, it's the sense of accomplishment and prestige - since WHEN is ambition like this a bad thing?!



Ambition is never a bad thing. Is it really ambition though, if all someone does is write a check and then sits on a made horse while it carrys them around a course? Is that ambition and accomplishment or just buying ribbons?

(I'm not talking about kathryn here, just speaking in general. And I realize this discussion is straying from what the OP was asking so this is the last I'll post about it. Don't want to get too off topic)
​


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

What is wrong with a made horse? And yes it is still an accomplishment. They are competing against other made horses and people with larger budgets. 

I would most certainly buy a made horse if I had the income to do so. Why wouldn't I or anyone else? 

When you bring on a horse yourself, you have little idea of what it's potential is going to be. How many horses would you have to bring on to find the one that can compete seriously at this level?


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

I doubt you could be a less than stellar rider, riding a made horse and still do fantastic. Good rider, matched with better horse can be wonderful. 

Kathryn, any suggestions on a breed? Do you want to stay away from any breed in general?


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Cori, you're exactly right. 

Having a made horse is more about leveling the playing field. In the divisions we're talking about, a successful rider still has to be highly skilled and on a very able horse. 

Coffee, I know this won't do anything to alleviate your heartburn about prices; but that $700K horse that upnover mentioned won a lot of money in stake classes under a professional rider - the big hunter stakes have prize money of 50 - 100K. Not saying he could earn back his purchase price like a jumper or racehorse can, but he has earned some money. It's just a different world.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

coffeeaddict said:


> Ambition is never a bad thing. Is it really ambition though, if all someone does is write a check and then sits on a made horse while it carrys them around a course? Is that ambition and accomplishment or just buying ribbons?
> 
> (I'm not talking about kathryn here, just speaking in general. And I realize this discussion is straying from what the OP was asking so this is the last I'll post about it. Don't want to get too off topic)
> ​


Your thoughts here are some what ironic to me.

You train dogs for a living.

Shouldn't these people train their own dogs so they can have the accomplishment of knowing they did it themselves? Where is their ambition when they send Fido off to you to be trained?


The OP wants to show at upper levels. Upper levels means big money. Do you think the Olympic level horses are just given away? Is it some how OK for them to have six figure price tags but not OK for the upper level hunter horses to have the same price tag?


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## coffeeaddict (Jun 18, 2010)

Always, the difference is that the majority of my clients are not competing with their dogs in any sort of event. I only train them to be obedient and have manners. I don't train them to compete and then hand them off to the owners to go win in the ring. 

There's also the fact that a lot of owners are ready to send their dog to the pound by the time they call me. They are frustrated and after having tried to do it themselves they cannot. I don't think any of those horses are in danger of heading to the meat truck.

Training dogs to stay in their current homes and have manners is very different from training an upper level competition horse. The goals and the clients are on complete opposite ends of the spectrum. 

I also think some people are mistaking my comments for me being hostile or upset by the OPs choices and that is not the case. I wish her luck and hope it works out.


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