# Sorrel or Chestnut?



## farmpony84

Yes. there is a difference. I used to think Sorrel was the western description and chestnut was for english! I argued with an old-timer forever and he finally asked the vet. I was proven wrong! LOL... (the argument started because I thought my horse was a chestnut). He's a deep red w/ a matching mane. I believe the chestnut has lighter tips.


----------



## SmoothTrails

So, genetically they are the same thing, but here is a link talking about it. 

Chestnut and Sorrel


----------



## smrobs

Yep, ^^ Smoothtrails is right. Genetically, they are the same thing as there are only 2 base coats for all horses; red and black. It is the little modifiers that separate chesnut and sorrel. Also, what you call a horse may also depend on what area of the world you are in or how you grew up.

The way that I always understood it is that the lighter colored horses are sorrel and the darker, deeper ones are chesnut.

I call these horses sorrel



























And I would consider these horses chesnut.


----------



## XivoShowjumper

sorrel











and 


Chestnut











and then Flaxen- (like a brighter sorrel or more pronounced sorrel)









so definately different colours


----------



## Cheshire

Lilly of course is considered chestnut by the arabian registry, however I think she is a sorrel as does most everyone who sees her. Her growing winter coat makes her darker, but from other photos I've seen of her in the summer she is very bright and, well...sorell-y. *shrugs* It's almost as if she has orange-ish/golden tones. This photo of her in mid-shake doesn't show it, but her mane is lighter...although her tail is two-toned and I wouldn't exactly call it flaxen. idk










I too tend to think of chestnuts as a darker brown.


----------



## smrobs

Just shows you the difference. I would call Lilly a chesnut. I think that some registries call all red horses sorrel and other registries call all red horses chesnut, don't they?


----------



## Cheshire

lol, just like most everything else in the horseworld...no one can seem to agree 100% on everything.  

I'm not even 100% sure what I think Lilly is! Eh. It really does depend on the region.


----------



## QHDragon

On my mare's ApHC papers it says she is chestnut or sorrel which is what started the debate with my friend, on my other mare's AQHA papers it says that she is chestnut but my friend was saying that she should be called sorrel since she is so light, but her mane is the same color as the rest of her. I guess I agree with XivoShowjumper in that I would consider a sorrel to have a lighter mane and a chestnut to be all one color.


----------



## farmpony84

if we go off that, then my horse is a chestnut... but the vet describes him as a sorrel......?????


----------



## QHDragon

See I would say for sure that your horse is chestnut.


----------



## my2geldings

farmpony84 said:


> Yes. there is a difference. I used to think Sorrel was the western description and chestnut was for english! I argued with an old-timer forever and he finally asked the vet. I was proven wrong! LOL... (the argument started because I thought my horse was a chestnut). He's a deep red w/ a matching mane. I believe the chestnut has lighter tips.


I've always thought it was a western term. I had to look it up, and to be honest I didn't find an actual answer. I think it's still a matter of whom you ask and what their opinion is. Every single color out there had a description, but when it came to those two, no clear description or answer came up for it. Below is the best answer I was able to find online:

___________________________________________

If your horse is a Thoroughbred, there is no difference. The Jockey Club doesn't recognize the existance of the color "sorrel," all Thoroughbreds that are red and not bay are registered as chestnut. If your horse is an Arabian, there is no difference. The International Arabian Horse Association doesn't recognize "sorrel" either, all Arabians that are red and not bay are registered as chestnut. Ditto for Morgan horses, Saddlebred horses, and Standardbred horses.

So the only breed registry for which there is a distinction between "sorrel" and "chestnut" is the Quarter Horse.

At the AQHA website, you can download a free chart with the colors and markings on it: http://americashorsedaily.com/horse-colo…

The chart states that Sorrel is: "Body color reddish or copper-red; mane and tail usually same color as body, but may be flaxen; may have dorsal stripe."

Chestnut is: "Body color dark red or brownish red, mane and tail usually dark red or brownish red, but may be flaxen. Mane and tail may appear black, but lower legs will be red; may have dorsal stripe."

Now I know from experience, because I've seen it happen when we were doing the registration papers for a bunch of Quarter Horse foals, that there will be some horses where people will not agree whether the foal is actually "sorrel" or "chestnut." I've also observed that when you offer people the chance to identify a bunch of horses as either chestnut or sorrel, if you run enough horses past them, you can repeat the exercise a couple of days later and the same person will change their mind about some horses. 

For me, I have never understood why it makes such a huge difference to some people to call a horse "chestnut" or "sorrel." The breeds I'm most familiar with are Thoroughbreds and Arabians, and I am very happy to not make distinctions between "sorrel" and "chestnut." I like to use descriptors to characterize the color: e.g, a red chestnut, a liver chestnut, a red chestnut with flaxen mane and tail, a brown chestnut, and so forth. Works for me.

However, there are some people that are extremely sensitive about whether their horse is "sorrel" or "chestnut." If that's how they feel, I'm fine with going along with whatever they choose to call their horse, I'm not going to argue. 

Since the distinction is in some cases very much a matter of judgement and opinion, if I were you, I wouldn't argue about it with someone. IMO, arguing about whether a horse is chestnut or sorrel is "much ado about nothing."


----------



## QHDragon

The definition from the AQHA makes it even more confusing! They basically say they can be the same color it is just up to the person registering them what they decide.


----------



## farmpony84

the definition from aqha makes my horse a sorrel... OH THE STRESS OF IT ALL!


----------



## SmoothTrails

I pretty much call all reds sorrel, adn if the have a flaxen mane and tale I just call it a sorrel with a flaxen mane and tail. It's just how I grew up. My mom always said since there's not an actual genetic difference who cares...lol.


----------



## Cheshire

SmoothTrails said:


> My mom always said since there's not an actual genetic difference who cares...lol.


So true! Some people may also prefer using the term "sorrel" because they think it sounds "flashier" than chestnut...from my experience around these parts. Maybe I should just call Lilly a "sorrel chestnut". lol


----------



## Eastowest

I think the term "sorrel" (as a horse color) was coined in the American west, and chestnut was used in England first and gravitated to the US Eastern seaboard with the TBs that arrived there-- both terms being used early on and getting well established with the horsey populations in each area-- so it makes sense that depending on where you live/who your horsey mentors were/what breed you were/are involved with, you might see it differently than someone else.

Both AQHA and APHA have the choice of chestnut or sorrel-- both describe chestnut as dark red or brownish red, and sorrel as reddish or copper red.

I think the Appaloosa Horse club went to "Chestnut or Sorrel" as one color choice a few years back to alleviate confusion, since depending on their experience/opinion of which was what, assigning one or the other might be confusing or frustrating to people registering.


----------



## Honeysuga

Sorrel has lighter mane and tail. Chestnut has same or slightly darker mane and tail.Period. It all has to do with the mane and tail color, not the body color at all(besides that it is red of course)

I ride western and I have yet to find sorrel a broad term for red horses, most I know, know the difference.Sorrel is not just a western term nor was it developed by western riders, it came across the sea like the rest of 'em. If you want to get *really* western you don't use sorrel or chestnut, you call it a red horse regardless of mane color, it is red...

It is also explained this way in Cherry Hills books on basic horsemanship.

The colors should be universal. But then again some people call browns light blacks and dark bays too... when only a drown has a cocoa to blackish coat and lighter or same colored points and a true black has no points and no brown(depending on genes the coat may fade out to a brownish hue, but is still truly black), and a bay has to have points that are darker than the rest of the coat, never lighter to be a bay, otherwise it is just a brown...

Technically a chestnut has more true red pigment to its hair than a sorrel(they tend to be more strawberry colored...), and due to a dilution gene that also causes the light mane and tail, a sorrel has a more more "orangey" naturally occuring coat.


----------



## Qtswede

As you can see - it all depends on who you asked. Many breed registries have identical descriptions but change the name from one registry to the next. In my eyes, it all boils down to genetics. If genetically they are the same - then that's that. However, I have never heard of a chestnut with a flaxen mane & tail. I have heard of a sorrel though. To ME, it's a chestnut when it's all the same color - mane, tail & coat. Sorrel if mane & tail differ at all from the coat. Just my two cents.


----------



## Honeysuga

You are correct, it is all about genes, and where the recessives are. Here this explains it better about the genesChestnut and Sorrel


----------



## farmpony84

I'm going with my sweet pea is a sorrel. 'cus that's what's on his coggins! I say the ones that don't shine as much... are chestnuts... teehee... that's my 'splanation!


----------



## Eastowest

_>>>>I ride western and I have yet to find sorrel a broad term for red horses, most I know, know the difference.Sorrel is not just a western term nor was it developed by western riders, it came across the sea like the rest of 'em. If you want to get *really* western you don't use sorrel or chestnut, you call it a red horse regardless of mane color, it is red..._

I didn't mean used by those RIDING western, I meant use of the word in "The West". I lived in Utah for 14 years-- unless you had Arabs or TBs, chances are, you called red horses sorrel, even if you rode English. (but then who rides English in UT unless you have an Arab or TB--- JK JK JK :lol: )

_>>>> It is also explained this way in Cherry Hills books on basic horsemanship._

And Cherry Hill is entitled to her/his opinion/experience just like every other horse person is. Although I daresay the 'ol cowboys "out west" that called all their red horses sorrel regardless of mane or tail color 
(Y'know, like the famous progenitor of the QH breed, Old Sorrel, foaled in 1915 and definitely not flaxen) had been alive longer than Cherry Hill and wouldn't take kindly to being told that a comparatively recent book was right and they and their pappys' and grandpappys' ways were wrong..... :twisted: 











_>>>>Technically a chestnut has more true red pigment to its hair than a sorrel(they tend to be more strawberry colored...), and due to a dilution gene that also causes the light mane and tail, a sorrel has a more more "orangey" naturally occuring coat. _

OK then just to throw a wrench into the above, what would you call this? Because I would call it a flaxen chestnut----











....While this one could arguably be a flaxen sorrel (If I used any other term besides chestnut-- I tend to use chestnut for all of them and just add the M/T color if it is significantly different).... .










The above would sort of follow the AQHA and APHA registry definitions. (Chestnut being dark or brownish red, sorrel being reddish or copper red-- regardless of M/T color) 


But your definition of chestnut is more like this one then?










But you also said, 

_>>>>>Sorrel has lighter mane and tail. Chestnut has same or slightly darker mane and tail.Period. It all has to do with the mane and tail color, not the body color at all(besides that it is red of course)_


OK so this first one is chestnut (M/T same as body)--------but these next 2 guys are sorrel strictly on M/T color?


----------



## Honeysuga

Eastowest said:


> _>>>>Technically a chestnut has more true red pigment to its hair than a sorrel(they tend to be more strawberry colored...), and due to a dilution gene that also causes the light mane and tail, a sorrel has a more more "orangey" naturally occuring coat. _
> 
> OK then just to throw a wrench into the above, what would you call this? Because I would call it a flaxen chestnut----
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ....While this one could arguably be a flaxen sorrel (If I used any other term besides chestnut-- I tend to use chestnut for all of them and just add the M/T color if it is significantly different).... .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The above would sort of follow the AQHA and APHA registry definitions. (Chestnut being dark or brownish red, sorrel being reddish or copper red-- regardless of M/T color)
> 
> 
> But your definition of chestnut is more like this one then?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But you also said,
> 
> _>>>>>Sorrel has lighter mane and tail. Chestnut has same or slightly darker mane and tail.Period. It all has to do with the mane and tail color, not the body color at all(besides that it is red of course)_
> 
> 
> OK so this first one is chestnut (M/T same as body)--------but these next 2 guys are sorrel strictly on M/T color?


 First- That is a darker sorrel, but if you notice the coat is still orangey, maybe enhanced with really good feeding or a supplement, but I can clearly see an orange cast to it, not a more strawberry red. Sorrel can have a light or dark body, It doesn't mater as long as it is red and the mane and tail are lighter. If it was a true chestnut(genetically different than a sorrel or whatever you choose to call it), the whole horse m/t included would be the same color(well not counting any white markings on the legs and face...).

As for the last three horses, you did not read what I said, I said *m/t IF THEY ARE RED*, those horses are liver and brown, thank you, so they are not sorrel.

*The bottom line is that if a horse is sorrel to you, it is a sorrel, if it is a chestnut to you , it is a chestnut. It is what you chose to define it as.
*
I was merely explaining that *technically it is genetics that makes a true sorrel or chestnut*(though _*I*_ have always seen and heard of sorrel and chestnut as I described), if you would go to the link I posted you can see what I mean. 

Sorrels on that website are called either _flaxen chestnuts, sorrel chestnuts, or just sorrels_(so I guess It could be either of the three). Flaxen chestnuts(or the other names for it) are different than other(true) chestnuts because of a recessive(sorry in an earlier post I put dilution, oops) gene that affects their coat and m/t color. They are genetically 2 different colors, but what you choose to call it is your choice.


----------



## Alwaysbehind

Eastowest said:


> I think the Appaloosa Horse club went to "Chestnut or Sorrel" as one color choice a few years back to alleviate confusion, since depending on their experience/opinion of which was what, assigning one or the other might be confusing or frustrating to people registering.


This (Chestnut or Sorrel) is what it says on my appy's papers.
So you are accurate, they consider it one color.


----------



## Eastowest

_>>>> I was merely explaining that *technically it is genetics that makes a true sorrel or chestnut*(though *I* have always seen and heard of sorrel and chestnut as I described), if you would go to the link I posted you can see what I mean. _

_>>>>Flaxen chestnuts(or the other names for it) are different than other(true) chestnuts because of a recessive(sorry in an earlier post I put dilution, oops) gene that affects their coat and m/t color. They are genetically 2 different colors, but what you choose to call it is your choice._ 

ALL of the pictured horses would test ee, meaning homozygous for non-extension, no black pigment, which is why there are many folks that would call them all chestnut. (just like bays test at least A-, and there are many shades of bay, but they are all called bay.) 

As far as I know there are no other genetic tests differentiating sorrel and chestnut from each other. Do you have a reference for the proposed recessive gene that makes chestnut genetically different than sorrel? I have not seen difinitive evidence of one. I HAVE heard of flaxen being proposed as a recessive trait, but recent genetic speculation about flaxen is that it is a polygenetic trait. Here are a couple quotes from an article on the inheritance of the flaxen trait on thehorse.com (and note the researchers use the term chestnut throughout the article even when flaxen is present)--

_*"The flaxen trait in chestnut horses does not appear to be controlled by a single gene, even though some reports have been published stating that flaxen manes and tails are the result of a single recessive allele (reported as Ff for flaxen). The many shades of flaxen suggest that it is not simply a single gene trait which is present or absent, but more likely a polygenic trait (controlled by multiple genes simultaneously). A study in Italy by Vacchioto and colleagues in 1991 concerning the flaxen trait in 1,714 horses of the Haflinger breed concluded that "the flaxen character in the Haflinger does not appear to be due to a recessive gene, and the mode of inheritance appears complex." Similarly, our data suggest that the flaxen trait does not follow patterns of inheritance characteristic of a singlerecessive gene. "*_

_*"If flaxen were a simple recessive trait, breeding two non-flaxen chestnut carriers [of flaxen] would be expected to produce one flaxen chestnut foal for every three non-flaxen foals in a large sample of such breeding pairs. But this pattern does not fit with studies tracking the flaxen trait. Researchers believe that the flaxen trait is not likely controlled by a single recessive gene within chestnut-bodied horses."*_


----------



## Honeysuga

Did you go to the link I posted? They go over color genetics on that site.

I am not saying this is an iron clad law, it is just what I have always known and what I have read, I could be wrong(and what I have read could be too). But for the sake of argument the results of one study(or 2 or 50) does not make something 100% true either. Like in your pp, there could be a factor they are not seeing, considering they only used one breed of horse, the results are biased to that breed IMO and not a good representation of every breed and their genetics. So who is to say which is more correct?

Whether or not they have not black, they are not red horses, so IMO they are not chestnuts or flaxen chestnuts(though according to the site they *are* in fact chestnuts and sorrel chestnuts, so technically I am wrong hehe, but my opinion still stands), which is the point, if it is chestnut to you, it is, if it ins't to you then it isn,t. This is a basic sociological theory.


----------



## Britt

We had this same debate on another forum I'm on...

They're both the exact same thing. Red.


----------



## Honeysuga

With a genetic trait that makes them different, hehe.


----------



## Eastowest

Yes, I went to the link. The very first 2 paragraphs there say:

_"Chestnut and sorrel are essentially the same color, genetically speaking. These horses are red, yellowish red, or reddish brown, and they do not have black points (the points being the mane, tail, and legs). __Chestnut and sorrel are determined by genes at the E locus. Horses that are ee at that locus are chestnut/sorrel; horses with an E gene at the locus are black (absent other modifiers). Chestnut is recessive to black, meaning that a chestnut bred to a chestnut will always produce a chestnut foal. Two blacks bred together can produce a chestnut foal if both blacks are heterozygous (Ee). In that mating, there's a 25% chance of a chestnut foal, and 75% chance of a black foal. A black horse who is homozygous (EE) will only produce black foals._

_The difference between chestnut and sorrel is somewhat controversial. Some people call__ the redder versions sorrel; some call __the redder versions chestnut. Some people (such as me) call the horses with flaxen manes and tails sorrel; some do not. Some people use one term or the other for all red horses. Some consider sorrel a term for horses who are ridden western, reserving chestnut for horses ridden English. Some breed registries use only chestnut or only sorrel; some use both." _

I agree 100% with the part I quoted above. 

Further on the page it goes into the inheritance of flaxen-- which I think is the "genetic difference" you are talking about. However the papragraphs above already establish that ee means chestnut/sorrel, and that different people assign the different terms to the different shades "differently" but essentially they are the same genetically, because they are both terms used to describe the various shades of "not black".

The theory of flaxen as a simple recessive as spelled out further down that site is NOT PROVEN-- it is pure theory. The study I quoted using Haflingers which points toward it being a polygenic trait is only one such study-- there is also DNA work being done with flaxen Morgans which so far is agreeing with the Haffie study, as well as simple phenotype observation of how flaxen breeds on in other various breeds. 

I am not trying to be obtuse-- I really don't care whether someone calls whichever shade of "not black" chestnut or sorrel, and I understand the various reasons why people choose to use one or the other. 

The point I am trying to address is the idea of there being a "genetic difference" between chestnut and sorrel based on sorrel having flaxen and chestnut not having flaxen-- IMO at this point there is not an establish-able genetic difference. First off, the inheritance of flaxen is not genetically testable nor even fully understood, much less assignable to a certain type of "not black". Secondly, there is not a "set in stone" established right or wrong usage of chestnut vs. sorrel-- its kind of hard to claim genetic difference between them when there isn't even an equine-industry-wide agreement on how to use the terms.


----------



## QHDragon

Gosh, didn't mean to start such an argument! 

So, is chestnut/sorrel always recessive?


----------



## Qtswede

against black, sorrel/chestnut is recessive.


----------



## equiniphile

Okay I'm here to clarify lol:

*Base Horse Coat Colors – Chestnut*











Image from Benchmark Training Center
*Basic Chestnut*

There are two basic coat colors in the equine animal, either black base or chestnut base.
All horse colors are built on a black or a chestnut base and different colors are achieved by dilution genes and color modifiers to provide the wide variety of colors and patterns in existence today.
*A Few Chestnut Facts*


Chestnut horses have no black hairs, they have a red coat and red points
Chestnut and sorrel are interchangable terms and the same genetically
Colors range from dark reddish brown, to deep red to light red
Mane and tail can achieve a sunstreaked look making it lighter than the body hairs
Mane and tail can be almost black all the way to blonde and flaxen
*Different Chestnut Shades*

Liver or Black Chestnut 








Image from French Stallions

Darkest red color
Can be very dark, however hair will retain a red color
Common in the morgan breed
Can be confused with silver dapple
Chestnut / Red Chestnut / Sorrel








Image from Travelers Farm

Lighter red hairs
Mane and tail can be very light in color
Most common shade of chestnut
Light Blonde / Sandy Chestnut








Image from Imoan Arabians

Very pale red
Mane and tail can be very light in color
*Chestnut Dilutions*

A chestnut base can produce the following colors when diluted
Red Dun

Chestnut base with a dun dilution gene.
Image from Engage Farms
Palomino

Chestnut base with a cream dilution gene.
Image from Stallions at Stud
Creamello

Chestnut base with a double dose of the cream dilution gene.
Image from Color Thyme Stud
Red Champagne

Chestnut base with a champagne dilution gene.
Image from Evening Shade Farm
*Chestnut Modifications*

A chestnut base can produce the following colors when modified.
Mealy / Pangare

Chestnut base with a mealy / pangare gene.
Image from White Horse Productions
Sooty / Smutty

Chestnut base with a sooty / smutty gene.
Image from jwakanmorgans
Flaxen

Chestnut base with a flaxen gene.
Image from Sunset Farms
*White Patterns*

Chestnut horses can display the following white patterns.
Appaloosa

Chestnut base with an appaloosa white pattern gene
Image from evelynbelgium
Skewbald Pinto / Paint

Chestnut base with a pinto / paint white pattern gene
Image from Wagon Wheel Farm
Strawberry Roan

Chestnut base with a roan white pattern.


----------



## Eastowest

Very nice post! I do however have to question this one as being chestnut based champagne--








I am 90% sure he is black based, called classic champagne (the farm site says he sires the most champagne foals from chestnut mares but I can't find where it calls him chestnut based.)

The International Champagne Horse Registry shows these as examples of champagne on a chestnut base (gold champagne) which are varying shades of gold, coppery gold, pale gold, etc--































This is what they show for classic champagne (champagne on black) which is what your example most resembles to me--


----------



## Jessabel

I just call all reddish horses chestnut. There's light chestnut, darker chestnut, flaxen chestnut, I call them all chestnut. It's easier.


----------

