# White Appies



## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

Okay so I don't remember much about what high white appies are called. 
Well, now we just got one, so I want to know what to call him. 

We were told he is appy, but I possibly see some Arab in there, in his ear tips and his tail flagging when he talks. 
But he most definitely has the pink skin with the black spots on it, under his completely white body coat. 
His face is mottled, as shown in the pic, and his hooves are striped. Oh and he has the white sclera. 
Is he a few/no spot? Is no spot a name?! lol
Thanks!


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## Nokotaheaven (Apr 11, 2012)

Do you have any body shots?
Judging by the one picture you posted I'd say he's maximum white sabino


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Definitely not a max white anything. White doesn't have dark skin under it.

In terms of breed, he may well be appaloosa, we can't tell. I can see the appaloosa characteristics - the mottled skin especially. However, colour wise, he looks like a grey now. Bear in mind that is just from this one photo - more photos would be ideal.


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## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

i wondered about having greyed out. But he didn't have a different colored mane, so I assumed wasn't grey. Is that a wrong association to have? He just looked too perfectly white everywhere to be grey in my thinking.
Yes Chillaa, he has lots more black skin spots just like hiis face. 
I will get some body shots today and post them.


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

Manes and tails gray out also, you know.


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## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

squirrelfood said:


> Manes and tails gray out also, you know.


I thought they looked different color wise though  
But I guess a chestnut would have the same colors, huh?


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## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

Okay, here are some body pics. I did some close ups of the body spots as well.
Disregard some of those marks on the shoulder as they are old bites. 
Also his back leg/hip/rib connection area isn't yellow in real life, it is the angle of the hair to the camera and lighting, and dirt, I think. 
And I did some more googling, I found some grey appies that look just like him..  lol. I guess being told he was 'white' I hadn't really thought of possibly being grey. 

Not that we will truly know, I suppose, since he was sold as grade, and the old owner isn't one of those types to care about knowing the inane little things like colors specificities.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

grey appy I'm afraid. 

I don't know all the specifics of why grey expresses the way it does, or how. I have seen grey horses with manes that stayed black, dark grey horses with manes that are white, horses that were white by 2 and others that were still dark at 20. Some dapple, some are flea bitten.


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## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

BlueSpark said:


> grey appy I'm afraid.
> 
> I don't know all the specifics of why grey expresses the way it does, or how. I have seen grey horses with manes that stayed black, dark grey horses with manes that are white, horses that were white by 2 and others that were still dark at 20. Some dapple, some are flea bitten.


Thank you BlueSpark!! That issues is EXACTLY why I was confused!! All the greys I have met that I knew were grey had the different colored manes, or were flea bitten and such. 

It isn't a sadness that he is grey.  I don't care. I just wanted to be able to label him appropriately. It annoys me to get it wrong.  

So if you are like we did, and get a horse with a sorta unknown history color wise... how does a layperson tell the difference from a few/no spot appy and a greyed out appy?


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## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

I guess I should also add that he is 16 years old, so plenty of time to go white if he were a grey, right?


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> how does a layperson tell the difference from a few/no spot appy and a greyed out appy?


 the underlying skin. You can see where this guys dark spots were when he was born by the underlying dark skin. The fact that he is a uniform white tells you he greyed out. If he was a varnish roan you would still see some spots or roan bits where the dark skin was, if he was a double dilute then the spotted areas would show as cream or off white and his eye color would be different. If he was truly 'white' like a max sabino, you would have no underlying dark patches.


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## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

BlueSpark said:


> the underlying skin. You can see where this guys dark spots were when he was born by the underlying dark skin. The fact that he is a uniform white tells you he greyed out. If he was a varnish roan you would still see some spots or roan bits where the dark skin was, if he was a double dilute then the spotted areas would show as cream or off white and his eye color would be different. If he was truly 'white' like a max sabino, you would have no underlying dark patches.


Okay, so totally disregarding any ideas of paint, with the max sabino concept (also, one assumes he is not a greyed out max sabino with what basis? Say you didn't know he was appy/his face wasn't mottled?) If he were nearly max sabino and greyed out, the hair on the dark skin spots would be a different color? To throw that additional idea of a greyed out max sabino in there lol 

... But what you are saying then is that an appy with black body spots and white hair does not exist, unless it has greyed out? That at one point in his life those black spots had colored hair on them? 
And thank you for the additional info on varnish and roan. I was confused there as well! I thought maybe varnish but couldn't figure out why his knees and such weren't colored then. 

I still don't think he is pure appy, either way lol. He has fairly curved ear tips like an Arab, and he flags his tail occasionally when he talks or is happy, along with a high flag when he poops. He also has a daintier face than I would expect for his/its size, as it gets down his muzzle, which seems very similar to an Arab in how it goes. But as you can see, I am *by far* no expert! 
I just want a correct as possible label, dang it!


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> If he were nearly max sabino and greyed out, the hair on the dark skin spots would be a different color? To throw that additional idea of a greyed out max sabino in there lol


 maximum sabino is pink skinned and white. Theoretically it could also be grey, but without testing there would be no visible indicator. If the horse had dark skin for some other reason than appaloosa(say paint, sabino, heck, solid bay) and it was a grey, fully expressed(so white hair) it would also be white, like a lipizanner or andelusian, which are often born black or bay.



> an appy with black body spots and white hair does not exist, unless it has greyed out? That at one point in his life those black spots had colored hair on them?


 correct. some double dilutes have dark skin and pale hair, but that hair is not truly white. the only white over dark skin that I know of is scar tissue(think poor fitting saddle spots) or grey. grey horses are born colored.



> I thought maybe varnish but couldn't figure out why his knees and such weren't colored then.


 if he was varnish, but had white knees, you wouldn't see it. You only see varnish on the dark patches.



> I still don't think he is pure appy, either way lol. He has fairly curved ear tips like an Arab, and he flags his tail occasionally when he talks or is happy


 the appaloosa registry is still open, so crosses with arabs, thoroughbreds and qh's are still registered as full appaloosa. so a "pure" registered appy can be half arab. That said, many horses show the tail flagging and pretty heads without recent arab ancestry.

here are a few examples from my own experiences.

this is a solid bay mare at 7 years old, in the midst of greying out:


25 year old flea bitten gelding, originally bay. 


a 6 year old bay. why is her mane light while her legs stay dark? no idea.


25 year old chestnut gelding with a big blaze. You can see the black and pink skin in his muzzle, but it all blends in further up. He was born solid chestnut with a blaze.


and tail flagging, this is a registered thoroughbred:


appaloosa


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## CrossCountry (May 18, 2013)

I'm no good with wierd color genetics, but I just have to say that he is gorgeous.


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## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

CrossCountry said:


> I'm no good with wierd color genetics, but I just have to say that he is gorgeous.


Thank you. 
He is our 11 YO daughter's. She just bought him with the money she saved for a horse. So far he seems a great fit for her. 
And the more I look at him, the more I really like his build and face.  Gonna hate that white skinned pink muzzle though!


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## frlsgirl (Aug 6, 2013)

Leopard complex? More specifically mottled leopard?


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## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

frlsgirl said:


> Leopard complex? More specifically mottled leopard?


I always assumed that spots on the skin, i.e. the mottled muzzle here, meant Lp was present and active?


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## frlsgirl (Aug 6, 2013)

GracielaGata said:


> I always assumed that spots on the skin, i.e. the mottled muzzle here, meant Lp was present and active?


This is from Wikipedia:

"Although the spotting and roaning patterns that make up the leopard complex sometimes appear very different from each other, the ability of leopard-spotted horses to produce the full spectrum of patterns, from mottled skin to roaning to more leopard-spotted offspring, has long suggested that a single gene was responsible.[5] This gene was termed _Lp_ for "leopard complex" by Dr. D. Phillip Sponenberg in 1982, and was described as an autosomal, incomplete dominant gene.[4] Horses without the gene (_lplp_) were solid-colored, those with two copies of the gene (homozygous or _LpLp_) were usually "fewspots", while those with a single copy of the gene (heterozygous or _Lplp_) ranged from mere mottled skin to full leopard.[4]

In 2004, _Lp_ was assigned to equine chromosome 1 (ECA1) by a team of researchers.[1] Four years later, this team mapped the _Lp_ gene to a transient receptor potential channel gene, TRPM1 or Melastatin 1 (MLSN1).[7] As yet, the etiology of this condition remains poorly understood."


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## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

frlsgirl said:


> This is from Wikipedia:
> 
> "Although the spotting and roaning patterns that make up the leopard complex sometimes appear very different from each other, the ability of leopard-spotted horses to produce the full spectrum of patterns, from mottled skin to roaning to more leopard-spotted offspring, has long suggested that a single gene was responsible.[5] This gene was termed _Lp_ for "leopard complex" by Dr. D. Phillip Sponenberg in 1982, and was described as an autosomal, incomplete dominant gene.[4] Horses without the gene (_lplp_) were solid-colored, those with two copies of the gene (homozygous or _LpLp_) were usually "fewspots", while those with a single copy of the gene (heterozygous or _Lplp_) ranged from mere mottled skin to full leopard.[4]
> 
> In 2004, _Lp_ was assigned to equine chromosome 1 (ECA1) by a team of researchers.[1] Four years later, this team mapped the _Lp_ gene to a transient receptor potential channel gene, TRPM1 or Melastatin 1 (MLSN1).[7] As yet, the etiology of this condition remains poorly understood."


good to know.


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## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

BlueSpark said:


> maximum sabino is pink skinned and white. Theoretically it could also be grey, but without testing there would be no visible indicator. If the horse had dark skin for some other reason than appaloosa(say paint, sabino, heck, solid bay) and it was a grey, fully expressed(so white hair) it would also be white, like a lipizanner or andelusian, which are often born black or bay.
> correct. some double dilutes have dark skin and pale hair, but that hair is not truly white. the only white over dark skin that I know of is scar tissue(think poor fitting saddle spots) or grey. grey horses are born colored.
> if he was varnish, but had white knees, you wouldn't see it. You only see varnish on the dark patches.
> the appaloosa registry is still open, so crosses with arabs, thoroughbreds and qh's are still registered as full appaloosa. so a "pure" registered appy can be half arab. That said, many horses show the tail flagging and pretty heads without recent arab ancestry.


Thanks so much for explaining it all out to me. 
Interesting on all the horses who have those Arab associated traits and aren't. I won't worry about thinking him Arab, not that it mattered either way.  
Like I said, the old owner wasn't caring too much on description and such. They had called him a white appy, which seemed odd to me, and is the reason I started this whole thread.  So I have no idea if he is pure, half, registered, etc. We don't ride the papers (especially on a gelding!) so all we were looking for a a horse who was a good fit with our daughter. 

Thanks for all the help and information. 
So I can now correctly say we own a grey appy.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

I would like to see a pic of him after a bath, when he is wet. I would call him a grey Appy, he is cute. Does he have any other pink on him when he is wet ? This can show any 'hidden' blankets etc. Every Appy I owned showed a different marking when they were wet. 
they were all sorrels and bays.


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## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

stevenson said:


> I would like to see a pic of him after a bath, when he is wet. I would call him a grey Appy, he is cute. Does he have any other pink on him when he is wet ? This can show any 'hidden' blankets etc. Every Appy I owned showed a different marking when they were wet.
> they were all sorrels and bays.


Hmm, no idea. We have only had him 2 days.  It is warm enough now, and he supposedly loves bathes... maybe I will go out and rinse him off. 
And thanks.


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## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

stevenson said:


> I would like to see a pic of him after a bath, when he is wet. I would call him a grey Appy, he is cute. Does he have any other pink on him when he is wet ? This can show any 'hidden' blankets etc. Every Appy I owned showed a different marking when they were wet.
> they were all sorrels and bays.


Here ya go. hehe ...
Okay, so obviously I didn't quite get that right! 
I hate messing with new horses without someone else around, even/especially a bath, lol. 
He was very happy to get wet, and was pawing to roll, and dancing around, so I got him a bit wet, confirmed lots of pink skin under there, where he doesn't have the black spots, and then he rolled! 
Hopefully this weekend we can get a good wet bath photo of him.  Until then, I found this one funny.


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

LOL, love that last photo!

He sure is a handsome fella!


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## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

Remali said:


> LOL, love that last photo!
> 
> He sure is a handsome fella!


hehe, thanks! He is def. growing on me


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

All greys will go entirely white eventually - given enough time. Grey is an individual thing - there is no rule on how fast it happens. A lot of the time, we see greys with dark hard points still and this is how they look when they have "finished" greying. However, what actually happens is that they pass away before the greying process finishes.


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## EquineBovine (Sep 6, 2012)

Haha good luck keeping him clean! He is lovely!


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## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

Chiilaa said:


> All greys will go entirely white eventually - given enough time. Grey is an individual thing - there is no rule on how fast it happens. A lot of the time, we see greys with dark hard points still and this is how they look when they have "finished" greying. However, what actually happens is that they pass away before the greying process finishes.


Good to know.  I didn't realize that is the reason. So even flea bittens will get rid of that, if the time is available?




EquineBovine said:


> Haha good luck keeping him clean! He is lovely!


Yeah, good thing all we do is trail ride, huh?!  And thanks.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

I have a flea bitten grey TB . his flea bites are sorrel/grey . He is 32 . He has been the same flea bitten color since age 18 . He is grey registered as grey . I doubt if he will ever turn white.
same for a flea bitten rose grey Arab mare, got her at age 12 now she is 20 and is the same color.

That roll in the dirt after the bath, is an absolute must for all of my horses. I usually start working on teh mane and tails after the bath so that they will be almost dry when I put them away.  

Pretty neat to see all the pink skin when they are wet.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

I should have accounted for flea bitten greys. No, they don't lose their flea bites. But the rest of their colour will go completely too.


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## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

stevenson said:


> I have a flea bitten grey TB . his flea bites are sorrel/grey . He is 32 . He has been the same flea bitten color since age 18 . He is grey registered as grey . I doubt if he will ever turn white.
> same for a flea bitten rose grey Arab mare, got her at age 12 now she is 20 and is the same color.
> 
> That roll in the dirt after the bath, is an absolute must for all of my horses. I usually start working on teh mane and tails after the bath so that they will be almost dry when I put them away.
> ...





Chiilaa said:


> I should have accounted for flea bitten greys. No, they don't lose their flea bites. But the rest of their colour will go completely too.


I didn't mean to be contrary.  I am just one of those people who try to cover all bases to learn.  You are a good teacher.  Does anyone know why they go flea bitten instead of solid? Is it lineage, i.e. can you assume if the horse has a parent that flea bites, they will too?


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

GracielaGata said:


> Here ya go. hehe ...
> Okay, so obviously I didn't quite get that right!
> I hate messing with new horses without someone else around, even/especially a bath, lol.
> He was very happy to get wet, and was pawing to roll, and dancing around, so I got him a bit wet, confirmed lots of pink skin under there, where he doesn't have the black spots, and then he rolled!
> Hopefully this weekend we can get a good wet bath photo of him.  Until then, I found this one funny.


As someone who knows PLENTY of white horses... that is possibly the dirtiest horse I've seen!!

"white Appy" could easy be "grey Appy". I typically refer to my black (seal brown), white (grey), black and white or spotted (pinto), brown (chestnut) horses.

Particularly to non horse people, though it does come up on occasion with horse people as well.

I don't see "white Appy" as inaccurate, though it is based on phenotype instead of genotype, "grey Appaloosa" would be the most accurate. Whether or not he is a purebred he obviously has the leopard gene and short of a DNA test he is definitely grey.

Even if the guy wasn't right (said bay or something obviously not true) plenty of people don't understand horse color, so it really doesn't matter.


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## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

Yogiwick said:


> As someone who knows PLENTY of white horses... that is possibly the dirtiest horse I've seen!!


Quite dirty, isn't he?! He is very happy to get sprayed, he even backs his butt up into the hose (which is why I quit hosing him that first time, I haven't had a horse do that before! lol). Then he goes and rolls a few good times. 



Yogiwick said:


> "white Appy" could easy be "grey Appy". I typically refer to my black (seal brown), white (grey), black and white or spotted (pinto), brown (chestnut) horses.
> Particularly to non horse people, though it does come up on occasion with horse people as well.
> I don't see "white Appy" as inaccurate, though it is based on phenotype instead of genotype, "grey Appaloosa" would be the most accurate. Whether or not he is a purebred he obviously has the leopard gene and short of a DNA test he is definitely grey.
> Even if the guy wasn't right (said bay or something obviously not true) plenty of people don't understand horse color, so it really doesn't matter.


All so very true.  I just have one of those personalities who likes to learn everything I can about anything new when I encounter it. 
I do like your idea of the phenotype vs. genotype. That soothes my scientific brain.  
I, too, have met many people who were not up on horse color genetics. Heck, just a few years ago when I first met the buttermilk buckskin mare I now own, I didn't know much at all about horses, much less colors. I think I called her white with black legs.  Whoopsy! 
And just like papers, in the end you can't ride the color, so it doesn't truly matter. But I enjoy learning all about it. And since I now own a white/grey appy of some sort, I wanted to know some more.  
Thanks for your help.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

He is so cute. I think he is part Arab, too. My friend's horse is JUST like him.


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## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

greentree said:


> He is so cute. I think he is part Arab, too. My friend's horse is JUST like him.


Does make ya wonder!! 



stevenson said:


> I would like to see a pic of him after a bath, when he is wet. I would call him a grey Appy, he is cute. Does he have any other pink on him when he is wet ? This can show any 'hidden' blankets etc. Every Appy I owned showed a different marking when they were wet.
> they were all sorrels and bays.


As you request, wet horse pics coming right up! He is most definitely all pink with black spots on his entire body, once we rinsed the bookoo amounts of dirt off of him. He needs some bathing manners, I tell ya. Little dancer boy enjoys it but doesn't stand still.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

GracielaGata said:


> Quite dirty, isn't he?! He is very happy to get sprayed, he even backs his butt up into the hose (which is why I quit hosing him that first time, I haven't had a horse do that before! lol). Then he goes and rolls a few good times.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, I completely agree with the phenotype/genotype thing, we just have to remember that plenty of people, including knowledgeable horse people go by phenotype and sometimes say something for the sake of getting the point across as opposed to being completely accurate.

There are plenty more who just don't know. Some are easy, some are tricky even for the experts . In terms of sales at least I wouldn't discredit someone for saying something that wasn't that far off and was phenotypically true. 

You could always test but I'd be pretty confident with grey.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

He looks like a dalmation XD


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## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

Yogiwick said:


> Yes, I completely agree with the phenotype/genotype thing, we just have to remember that plenty of people, including knowledgeable horse people go by phenotype and sometimes say something for the sake of getting the point across as opposed to being completely accurate.
> 
> There are plenty more who just don't know. Some are easy, some are tricky even for the experts . In terms of sales at least I wouldn't discredit someone for saying something that wasn't that far off and was phenotypically true.
> 
> You could always test but I'd be pretty confident with grey.


I totally agree with that! I didn't hold the oddness of his description against them at all. 
I will even add this: on his front knee he has a spot of black hair that I am still trying to figure out if it is dirty or not, and what the skin is under it. I haven't gotten a chance to sit in good light and see it... What do you make of that?!



Yogiwick said:


> He looks like a dalmation XD


Yes, a rather large dalmatian!! lol


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

"I will even add this: on his front knee he has a spot of black hair that I am still trying to figure out if it is dirty or not, and what the skin is under it."

Hard to say without knowing more but my guess is it is dirt, or a "bloody shoulder" type marking where the grey did not take effect.

Theory based off the pictures- does he have any other spots on his legs? (On the skin or fur?) He looks to have a leopard coat so would be white where the spots aren't anyways. As we were saying before greys can change differently, some keep "grey" in some spots while they are white in others. It is possible his legs are still a darker grey while the rest of the body is white. Yet because his legs are mostly white due to the markings the only spot you'd see the darker grey is on the on little spot where he would of had color initially.

Maybe a horse like this:









Except you would only see the color through the little "windows" of the spots anyways and the rest would already be pure white. Therefore the horse could look pure white all over except for the few spots in the few darker areas.

Hope that makes sense haha. Again, just something that popped into my head based off the pics.


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## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

Yogiwick said:


> Hard to say without knowing more but my guess is it is dirt, or a "bloody shoulder" type marking where the grey did not take effect.


Bloody shoulder is roughly the same thing as a Bend 'Or spot, right? Oddly enough my mare (half appy) has a big Bend 'Or on her neck. Again, back to my non-knowing... when I first got her I thought that was her single appy spot, as her sire was a heavily spotted leopard... nope, nothing to do with that. 

Theory based off the pictures- does he have any other spots on his legs? (On the skin or fur?) He looks to have a leopard coat so would be white where the spots aren't anyways. As we were saying before greys can change differently, some keep "grey" in some spots while they are white in others. It is possible his legs are still a darker grey while the rest of the body is white. Yet because his legs are mostly white due to the markings the only spot you'd see the darker grey is on the on little spot where he would of had color initially.[/QUOTE]

He seems to only have that one spot. I checked him over some, but need to keep looking. I am getting more comfy with him as time goes on. I hate the whole new to me horse. I feel like I am starting at square one with trusting and understanding his intentions. 
Maybe a horse like this:









Except you would only see the color through the little "windows" of the spots anyways and the rest would already be pure white. Therefore the horse could look pure white all over except for the few spots in the few darker areas.
Hope that makes sense haha. Again, just something that popped into my head based off the pics.[/QUOTE]
It does.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Bloody shoulder is not the same as a Bend Or Spot. My understanding is a bloody shoulder is where the horse turns grey and the spot (doesn't need to be on the shoulder) does not. (Eg a chestnut horse turns grey but still has a chestnut mark on the shoulder) I also believe I have heard of a horse with very concentrated "flea bites" becoming a bloody shoulder but it's usually the first one.


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## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

Yogiwick said:


> Bloody shoulder is not the same as a Bend Or Spot. My understanding is a bloody shoulder is where the horse turns grey and the spot (doesn't need to be on the shoulder) does not. (Eg a chestnut horse turns grey but still has a chestnut mark on the shoulder) I also believe I have heard of a horse with very concentrated "flea bites" becoming a bloody shoulder but it's usually the first one.


Got it.  So not as related as I thought.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Just an aside, horses with the LP gene and grey tend to grey extremely fast and are white at a lot younger age than more horses lacking the LP gene.


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## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

NdAppy said:


> Just an aside, horses with the LP gene and grey tend to grey extremely fast and are white at a lot younger age than more horses lacking the LP gene.



Now that is a bit of info that seems to apply quite well here, huh? Since Drummer is pretty much solid white! Interesting!


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## Icyred (Mar 31, 2009)

Can't help but add an example about the amazing appaloosa breed, this is a pic of the changes my boy has gone through from birth to now.  Born a snowcap, he has changed on us a lot! Pretty sure he'll be almost all grey by the age of 5, hehe. 










Most recently:


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## my horse (May 23, 2013)

I would say, Appaloosa!! your horse has the, Well-shaped neck, short back, compact body, and the Appaloosa ears.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

he is so cute. I am not a color guru, but with the pink skin I would call him white and a leopard appy. He is just shy and hides his polka dots.


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## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

Icyred said:


> Can't help but add an example about the amazing appaloosa breed, this is a pic of the changes my boy has gone through from birth to now.  Born a snowcap, he has changed on us a lot! Pretty sure he'll be almost all grey by the age of 5, hehe.


WOW! That is a lot of change! Makes me wonder what Drummer could have been before! 



my horse said:


> I would say, Appaloosa!! your horse has the, Well-shaped neck, short back, compact body, and the Appaloosa ears.


  I agree on the appy for sure. Corformationally, I don't know much about them, aside from strong, compact backs, and poor mane and tail growth. I do quite like Drummer's conformation though. Both of our other horses are base narrow/knock kneed. Drummer has a nice evenly wide stance and nice large knees.  



stevenson said:


> he is so cute. I am not a color guru, but with the pink skin I would call him white and a leopard appy. He is just shy and hides his polka dots.


Thanks, I am quite enamored of him! I like that idea- hiding his spots... someone with some great literary creativity could really make a good children's book out of that, I think.


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## Dontworrybeappy (Jul 21, 2014)

My appy is a black leopard he has a lot of the same mottling your guy has. As appys get older they fade out, does yours have any spots that are on his skin but not his fur?


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## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

Dontworrybeappy said:


> My appy is a black leopard he has a lot of the same mottling your guy has. As appys get older they fade out, does yours have any spots that are on his skin but not his fur?


? Spots on his skin but not his fur- that is all he is, lol. So I am confused.  He looks just like your guy. Who is quite the looker, I might add.  Y
our guy faded- what does that mean, that his spots used to show in the hair but no longer do?


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

LP/Varnish does not make spots fade. That is typically because of grey.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

"what does that mean, that his spots used to show in the hair but no longer do?"

That seems to be the case with both horses. Remember grey is gradual so at one point they probably looked something like this:










and then it greyed out... Which is why color breeders tend to avoid grey (and dilution genes)


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## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

Thanks Yogiwick. I wondered, sort of. I trust you color gurus way more than I know about it.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Like, but don't count me in as a "color guru". I'm self taught with the basics and just enjoy it


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## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

Yogiwick said:


> Like, but don't count me in as a "color guru". I'm self taught with the basics and just enjoy it


Eh... ya have a lot more basics than I do....


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## MiniMom24 (Mar 13, 2013)

If he's an appy than he isn't known as "grey". Appy's don't Grey out like a Qh ect would, they varnish an it doesn't have anything to do with the Grey Gene a QH would carry. I think he's a Molted Fewspot (because you can see the spots when he's wet). He was probably born White with few dark spots and they varnished out. 

Leopard complex - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## MiniMom24 (Mar 13, 2013)

He might of looked something like this only Chestnut. But, because you don't know his breeding. I can't say for sure.


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## MiniMom24 (Mar 13, 2013)

Another, this one has spots like yours does. That's the Beauty of the LP gene. It can do weird things.


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## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

Huh, minimom... Interesting. I don't know enough at all about it.  
And I don't have anything on him from before we bought him. 
Wish I did though, then it would be definite! 
Those are some neat examples you found! Thanks


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

MiniMom24 said:


> If he's an appy than he isn't known as "grey". Appy's don't Grey out like a Qh ect would, they varnish an it doesn't have anything to do with the Grey Gene a QH would carry. I think he's a Molted Fewspot (because you can see the spots when he's wet). He was probably born White with few dark spots and they varnished out.
> 
> Leopard complex - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




_Unless they have the grey gene and then they will grey...:wink:_


Pretty sure this was covered early on in the thread.


All Lp horses varnish (some more than others).

Not all Appies have Lp, some non- Appies have Lp.

All grey horses will go grey.

Most breeds of horse have G, including Appaloosas. If I remember correctly this horse is grade anyways.

If your Appy has G they will grey. Same with your non Appy.

If your Appy (or any horse) has Lp and G they will still grey.. They may have a pattern under the grey but they will still grey. They will probably change color faster as they have two "greying" genes. They will varnish and grey and end up white.

Varnish roan and grey are NOT the same. Varnish leaves color in some areas and works more like an odd roan then a grey. This horse has no color. He is grey. If he was a fewspot he wouldn't have spot markings and he would still have at least some color.

To confuse you further leopard does NOT create spots. It is an enabler. It does create varnish. There are other genes (which I believe all horses carry) that do not show without the enabler (leopard/Lp) that create the spots. Which is why there are so many different types of spots and why Appies can be solid (no Lp), varnish (or varnishing with Appy characteristics) (Lp but none of the other genes), or some variation of spots (some variation of other genes with Lp, and/or some variation of other genes with TWO leopard genes.)

I understand that one leopard gene creates spots (like a leopard) and two creates the white without the spots (like a fewspot).

So this horse is varnish (with a few spots, note how the varnish did not remove them):









This is grey:









Which does the OP's look like?


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

JW, why do you think the OPs horse is chestnut?


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## MiniMom24 (Mar 13, 2013)

Ya, I was a little lost on reading some of the posts. I seen another post a while back and while the horse didn't carry Grey, he did actually carry the classic Roan gene and that's what made his spots disappear. 

I questioned with him not having the grey gene because in the picture where he isn't wet, you can still see the spots on his neck. Idunno, unless you test than you never know if it's grey or not. 

Yogiwick. I guessed it was a chestnut because she posted a picture of it's flank and it had chestnut roaning going on. Unless it was dirt?


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## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

MiniMom24 said:


> Ya, I was a little lost on reading some of the posts. I seen another post a while back and while the horse didn't carry Grey, he did actually carry the classic Roan gene and that's what made his spots disappear.
> 
> I questioned with him not having the grey gene because in the picture where he isn't wet, you can still see the spots on his neck. Idunno, unless you test than you never know if it's grey or not.
> 
> Yogiwick. I guessed it was a chestnut because she posted a picture of it's flank and it had chestnut roaning going on. Unless it was dirt?


I don't remember the pic, but would assume his flank was dirt, or the shadowing sort of thing of his dark skin spot there, as he has no colored hair anywhere.  Just his dark skin spots under the white hair, which are dispersed all over his body, big and little, clustered and not.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

MiniMom24 said:


> If he's an appy than he isn't known as "grey". Appy's don't Grey out like a Qh ect would, they varnish an it doesn't have anything to do with the Grey Gene a QH would carry. I think he's a Molted Fewspot (because you can see the spots when he's wet). He was probably born White with few dark spots and they varnished out.
> 
> Leopard complex - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Varnish DOES NOT lighten the spots. Grey does. Appaloosas can and are grey. I know quite a few that are grey actually. 

Classic roan will NOT make spots disappear. 

The ONLY gene that will make spots disappear is GREY.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

appy coats do odd things regardless of grey.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

MiniMom24 said:


> Ya, I was a little lost on reading some of the posts. I seen another post a while back and while the horse didn't carry Grey, he did actually carry the classic Roan gene and that's what made his spots disappear.
> 
> I questioned with him not having the grey gene because in the picture where he isn't wet, you can still see the spots on his neck. Idunno, unless you test than you never know if it's grey or not.
> 
> Yogiwick. I guessed it was a chestnut because she posted a picture of it's flank and it had chestnut roaning going on. Unless it was dirt?


It's unlikely that roan would make spots disappear. I guess it depends on the exact location and type of roaning/spots. I would think there would still be some color...just roaned.

You can see the spots because the skin is darker. That doesn't mean anything other than he has spots and they have (for whatever reason) greyed out. Only grey will work exactly like that. So I'm confused as to why that would be making him NOT grey?? Grey doesn't change the skin...

I guess I'm missing the chestnut roaning thing... Thinking it's probably just dirt but I will go back and check!


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## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

Yogiwick said:


> It's unlikely that roan would make spots disappear. I guess it depends on the exact location and type of roaning/spots. I would think there would still be some color...just roaned.
> 
> You can see the spots because the skin is darker. That doesn't mean anything other than he has spots and they have (for whatever reason) greyed out. Only grey will work exactly like that. So I'm confused as to why that would be making him NOT grey?? Grey doesn't change the skin...
> 
> I guess I'm missing the chestnut roaning thing... Thinking it's probably just dirt but I will go back and check!


It isn't anything on the sorta chestnut appearance Yogi! I went back and looked at the pics. It is a trick of the light on his hair right there. As the hairs were all different directions, and he might not have been completely clean, so it made them a light yellow tint.  He most definitely has no hair other than white.  Though I have found a stray greyed out mane hair here and there (Is that a derp moment on proof of greyness?! lol)


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Grey will make all the hair white... with the possibility of flea bites (hair recoloring in some areas) on some horses. 

Your horse is grey with spotted skin. May or may not be appaloosa.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

GracielaGata said:


> It isn't anything on the sorta chestnut appearance Yogi! I went back and looked at the pics. It is a trick of the light on his hair right there. As the hairs were all different directions, and he might not have been completely clean, so it made them a light yellow tint.  He most definitely has no hair other than white.  Though I have found a stray greyed out mane hair here and there (Is that a derp moment on proof of greyness?! lol)


LOL like a polar bear!! The hair shows the color underneath...in this case..dirt! :lol:


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## Icyred (Mar 31, 2009)

I couldn't help but share the color change story of my gelding. I have a picture showing his color changes from weanling to 1 1/2 year old and I added a picture of him now too. It's amazing what appaloosa coats can do! We never expected him to change like this but I love it dearly.


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## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

Icyred said:


> I couldn't help but share the color change story of my gelding. I have a picture showing his color changes from weanling to 1 1/2 year old and I added a picture of him now too. It's amazing what appaloosa coats can do! We never expected him to change like this but I love it dearly.


I can't see your pics.


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## SummerShy (Aug 3, 2014)

What a cute horse. I love the little blue 'bingo' dots on his coat.


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## Icyred (Mar 31, 2009)

Sorry about that! Here we go


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Oh wow, that's some pretty rapid transformation there!! Blink and you'll miss it, go on vacation and think someone stole your horse! lol


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## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

Icyred, your horse is beautiful. That is a big change!


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## Icyred (Mar 31, 2009)

Yogi- Hahaha we joked about that so many times!

Thank you Gracie! I love him so much... we were a bit worried about how small and gangly he was his yearling year but he's really grown into himself! I'm excited to start our showing career this next summer.


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## cheyennemymare (Oct 8, 2014)

Oh wow! Went from an adorable blanket to a white-out! He really changed a lot! My leopard app loses ALL his spots in the winter, and summer, they pop up everywhere. But your appy is beautiful!


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## hyperkalemic4 (Dec 8, 2014)

Nice looking horse. I would say definitely App. He may have been a darker color when young and he has just faded out. I hope you have shade or a barn to keep him it looks like he has that type of sunburn skin.


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## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

hyperkalemic4 said:


> Nice looking horse. I would say definitely App. He may have been a darker color when young and he has just faded out. I hope you have shade or a barn to keep him it looks like he has that type of sunburn skin.


No barn, but yes on sunscreen and I will get a UV mask if needed. So far the burning location is only the top of his nose, and possibly around his eyes.

And thanks on the compliments.


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## MiniMom24 (Mar 13, 2013)

Sorry, I meant Roan, not Varnish. If I can find the post I'll post it. There was an Appy that had spots that disappeared. She posted a picture of the horse when wet and you can see perfect black spots all over its rump. The horse was all white when not wet. She got him tested and it didn't carry the grey gene as everyone said the horse was grey and that's why the spots disappeared and it in fact carried the true roan gene which she said must of been the cause of the spots disappearing. So if Classic roan and Varnish can't make spots dispensary what would of happened to this girls horse since it didn't carry the grey gene?

The OP's horse might be grey, I don't know. I'm not saying it isn't. I'm just giving other opinions that I've come across as the OP's horse isn't tested so you don't know for sure.





NdAppy said:


> Varnish DOES NOT lighten the spots. Grey does. Appaloosas can and are grey. I know quite a few that are grey actually.
> 
> Classic roan will NOT make spots disappear.
> 
> The ONLY gene that will make spots disappear is GREY.


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