# going thru with threat



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I didn't have time to watch it all (will do so later) but right away I can see that this horse has NO respect for you. That time he came in toward you would have really scared me. But, I would have had that whip right in front of me, at his face and if got within range of me hitting him, I'd have whopped him so hard he'd never do that again.

that whip is too flimsy, for one thing. Get a firmer whip that can transmit some strength.

When you bring him out to the grass you start right then and there; you do not allow him to eat. He must stand quietly , 6 to 8 feet away from you while you prepare the line. if he starts to eat, you stop that pronto! YOu do not allow him to leave you mentally and go off to eating while you fuss with the line. IF you cannot do both, then do the "you stand where I say" and jettison lunging him.


When he is lunging, start right off with getting a quality movement. so, if you said "walk" and he shambles along, then you put the whip to the ground good and hard, make a ruckus, and get him to smarten up!

He'll jump, or pin his ears, or maby move toward you. ONE step toward you and explode at him. Don't be wishy washy. He is acting in a very insulting and threatening way. You are just getting in HIS way, and soon enouhgh he'll do something to get you out of his way. 

Lastly, NEVER back up. you were backing your feet multiple times. IF you must back up to save your life, then, so be it. But, first , before you back away, you make HIM back away. think of having a forcefield around you, if he gets too close, you let him know ti. and don't wait until you can barely raise up the whip because he is so near he has pushed your "arm" back into you. As far as that whip can reach? that's the outer edge of your forcefield. the instant he breaks that barrrier, zap him!

do this a few times and you'll have a much more "yes ma'am" horse.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

A couple things just safety wise. Do not let the line drag on the ground and do not let the horse turn and walk towards you when you stop him. As well a good pair of gloves are a must.
It's good that you aren't lunging him anymore because it's honestly a disaster waiting to happen. If he gets that line tangled and trips it's at best a rope burn and at worst a broken neck. And I've seen a rope burn get infected and kill a horse.

As far as the running in towards you, from the beginning of the video it's evident that the horse is lunging you and not the other way around. Stand in one place, the horse moves around you and the line should be taught at all times. When you ask the horse to halt, he should wait for you, perpendicular to your line and wait for you to approach him, not the other way around. The horse is invading your space and dictating where and when he would like to be in the circle.

An experienced trainer is going to be your best bet, and lots of lessons.

Good luck!


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## hemms (Apr 18, 2012)

Not going to lie, I only bothered with 2 mins of your vid. 

My gut reaction to your question was "Wth is a horse even DOING threatening a person??"

As soon as the vid opened, I could see major issues. Your hirse is screaming disrespect before you even send him moving. Imo, his/her perceived image of you starts the second you enter his/her space. What I see is an unprepared, scattered person not for one milisecond commanding focus, let alone respect.

I linge for two different reasons. A flight check to spot any lameness and establish focus, which I'm always prepared to get NOW. And with a lesson in mind. I'm a very ritualistic handler. I believe animals (and children) benefit from the structure. I tie my horse or stand him at the fence while I cange out my lead for lunge. I properly gather my lunge and whip before walking off to my established lunge spot of that moment. My horses move off the instant I ask them, with polite energy and under control. Simply raising my stick off ghe ground increases their energy. If I have to snap that whip, I'm at the offended point, lol. 

If I had your horse in my hands, I'd approach it the same way. Very clear cues to send him out (I point with my lunge-holdong hand & roll the string of my whip of the ground, toward the hip). If he did not step off NOW, I'd roll that whip a second time, high off the ground and HARD on the ***. Normally, I wouldn't be this aggressive with a new horse, but his teenager 'tude toward you has riled me, lol. If he's any kind of reasonable horse, this will have gained his attention enough that you need not repeat it more than once or twice more in the sesdion. 

Re his charging/threatening behaviour, I save my voice for just this kind of thing. Twist that bum toward me and I'll growl and crack you on that *** again. Twist that front end off the circle toward me and I'll definitely get loud and mean with that whip. Lay your ears at me, and you'll move out faster. Head twisting or tossing equates moving out harder. Ignoring my whip cues gains you an attention-getting crack. Being a good, polite horse elicits my crooning voice and praise. I also never drill a well behaved horse into boredom. Even if I'm lunging for exercise, I change it up with poles, ditch lunging, anything to engage the mind and keep the wheels turning.

The whip is always between me and the offending part of them. For this reason, I prefer the NH "carrot sticks". String for fine-point articulation, and hard fiberglass stick for defending myself. 

Requiring a horse to behave civilly on the lunge isn't asking a lot. Any horse I don't feel safe around is meat-truck worthy, in the current market. Jmo. 

Sorry for the opinionated novel, but I hate to see things so on the cusp... Could go hard either way and I'm hoping for you and your friend to find your route to a good relationship.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fargosgirl (Jan 12, 2012)

IMHO, horses never make idle threats. If they are threatening, they have every intention of following through and will not feel the slightest remorse. Take this behavior seriously.


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## Phly (Nov 14, 2012)

I unfortunately suffered through the whole thing, all I can say is, it gets worse. 
For one and foremost, crappy music covers what we could hear as your cues. I do believe your horse knows how to lounge and be good, from what I seen, you're confusing him. Your leading arm in, is one issue. When you crack the whip, he changes direction? And FAST! But I don't see or obviously here a cue to change direction or you ask for speed. Then there's times where he freely walks up to you. And you give loving. Hmm what did he do to earn that? Let alone on his own choice. You should ask him to approach you and be able to stop anywhere in between.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nvr2many (Jan 18, 2011)

I also watched the whole thing, minus sound (hubby is sleeping) and all I can say is, YOU ARE GOING TO GET HURT! I would never ever let a horse get away with that crap and never ever turn your back or bend over (off guard) with a horse that obviously wants to hurt you and has no respect for you at all! If you want to do that right you have to get tough, make him work and work some more! It was just really hard to watch. I am sorry. Good luck.


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

You should never lunge without a specific purpose or end goal in your mind. Lunging the way you were doing it was letting the horse run endless circles around you without learning anything. The only thing that will accomplish is a fitter horse with the same manners you started with, and his are not good. 

What this horse needs is not endless circles, it's respect, as others have stated. If you intend to lunge him, you should decide, for example, that he is going to do "x" amount of laps at a proper speed and distance from you, and then stop when told. If he doesn't, you have to be prepared to correct and adjust, meaning back him down if he comes toward you, reverse him or shut him down if he speeds up, etc. But don't just do endless and pointless laps because lunging was something you have been told you should do with him.

My advice would be to let someone experienced work with him in a round pen, preferably at liberty, since the line itself can send confusing messages if not handled properly, and demand the respect he should be showing, and then teach you how to do the same. Barring that, I would advise doing a LOT more groundwork with him before attempting to lunge, and not give him an inch when you ask for something. You are not showing enough confidence to be his leader, and he knows it.


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## clairegillies (Nov 25, 2012)

tbforever, it might be an idea to find out if there is a natural horsemanship trainer or Parelli professional in you area that could come and help you. one of the best training over the internet sites is Quantum Savvy as they will give you tips from your video to help you. they do a lot of groundwork stuff in their level one. 

Claire


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

he is abit better now this was a while back, we longed today and he turned on command,, stopped on comand (which he has no problems with), he backs up, still with encouragement of tap on chest, he can side pass, he walks beside me, alot of the time if he doesnt want to work he chucks a stinka, hes good under saddle,,

i backed off alot, when he first pinned ears, as i was home alone, i got someone to longe today, he played up abit but with dominance back at him he was fine which gave me confidence


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## clairegillies (Nov 25, 2012)

you sound a lot more in control now, how long have you had him? glad he's good under saddle.

Claire


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

im only leasing atm and soon can buy if it all works out, i pretty much own him as no one wants him ,and i want him lol,he was going great, but he had around 2 months of just being a paddock horse,so getting him back into work is what he doesnt like LOL.

problem is ive stopped in past once he challenged me, and he's learnt that, so now i have to be consistent with discapline, and be top horse instead of him powering me...i realllly need a shorter longe line, that one is way to long for me


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Great advice already given. The horse needs to know that when he crosses the line, there will be repercussions.

And, don't EVER longe him over food again. It is a major distraction and will create resentment when they are not allowed to eat. Notice how much of his bad behavior is right after having to trot over the food and not be able to eat. Longe only on clean food free ground.


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## Fahntasia (Dec 19, 2011)

Everyone is right, he has no respect, you need to get in touch with a trainer who knows what they are doing so you can learn how to lunge properly. 

1. NEVER wrap a lunge line around your arm or wrist, if he takes off, you WILL be dragged behind him.

2. Once its "work time" he needs to get into work mode, not eating and farting around, make him give you a nice active walk, not that shambling walk he was giving you. Ask 3 times, 1st time nicely, 2nd time with more force, 3rd time -get after him!-

3. gloves gloves gloves, proper ones.Unless your into getting your nails and skin ripped off your hand, I suggest gloves lol.

My mare will "cue" me to let me know she will act up, hunches her body a bit and eyeballs me, then its off to bucking bronco world ****. She has learned that all that gets her is a near face plant with the arena wall and has realized its pointless, she will NOT get her way lol, she also has respect for my lunge whip and when that's pointed at her, even if she's freaking out, she will avoid it. 

I am not telling you to beat him with it, crack it on the ground make the snapping noise, its the noise that freaks them out. Get behind his shoulder, not ahead of him.


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

It sounds like you are on the right track, but to answer your question the short answer is - you don't worry about deciding if they are going to go through with a "threat" or not, you take every threat at face value, assume they have every intention of doing what they are doing and you react accordingly. Spending any time thinking about whether or not the horse "means it" only leaves you at risk of injury if you make the wrong call and lets the horse have the opportunity to see that there is room for pushing boundaries. If your reaction is not the same EVERY time the horse exhibits an unwanted behaviour you are creating a situaiton where the behavior is likely to escalate in frequency and seriousness.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Yeah, to me, a "threat" is an insult, and it makes me get my back up fast . I don't insult the horse, but if he insults me, I will interrupt that thinking very fast and firm, then right back to what I was asking before.

I agree that lunging over "food" will make things more difficult, but if that is all you have, then use it and raise your expecation to say, "no eating!" and I think any horse should be able to meet that expectation, resentment or not.

Lunging is not as easy as you'd think. is there anyojne there who can give you a lesson or two?


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

thanks for the advice everyone

the hay on the ground is the scraps he doesnt eat, but yeah would of been a destraction, we made a round yard

im alot more confident with him now,

im going to look into getting a short longe line as it is way to long for me


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

He actually wouldn't frighten me at all - at this stage he isn't really aggressive but doing a really good job of trying to make out he is. He resents having to work and you are not energetic enough, clear enough or dominating enough (that is not bullying - different thing) in your body language.
Learn how to fold the lunge line up and carry it at lead rein length - sign of 'I mean business authority' rather than aimlessly dragging him behind you and then rather than getting it all tangled up around his legs you let it out gradually.
When you crack that whip it has to mean it - I don't know how much you use your voice but I'm talking all the time - good horsey voice/bad horsey voice, verbal cues. Bad horsey voice has to mean 'mummy is not a happy bunny and when I'm not a happy bunny then watch out.'
I will disagree about the working him on his food - a lot of people don't have access to a ménage and a horse has to learn when its time to eat and when its time to work otherwise every time they get ridden on grass or near foliage they'll think its OK to snack.
It has already been mentioned but please always wear gloves 
Since he's broken I'd be inclined to lunge him in his tack to instill the idea that its work not some odd game you're playing - cavesson or headcollar over his bridle with the lunge line attached to that and side reins loosely attached to a surcingle or his saddle - that is not to restrict his head carriage beyond normal.


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

i say good boy, but its habit lol which isnt good because i use to ask for canter, hed trot and id say good boy, amount of times i had to correct myself LOL, he is only new to ground work,the lady that was helping gave up saying hes an aggressive animal, i dont think hes aggressive, but its mainly horse play the lady that was helping who was trying to do NH on him was swinging the end of her longe line near his face which was causing him to rear up and be annoyed,

only time ive seen him aggressive was when he charged me as i was putting his rugs on while eating he took my sleave cuff off when he went me, was very lucky he stopped after that, he never had problems with being touched while eating, which now he gets annoyed, didnt help our dog was annoying him as he retaliates to the dog, and bikes slamming acrross the road, he got a good smack to the mouth for that,

tis when i relised i need to be top dog not him


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

Fahntasia said:


> Everyone is right, he has no respect, you need to get in touch with a trainer who knows what they are doing so you can learn how to lunge properly.
> 
> 1. NEVER wrap a lunge line around your arm or wrist, if he takes off, you WILL be dragged behind him.
> 
> ...



he got cracked over the butt yesterday with the whip, as he doesnt listen and will play up, but he was great after that, he doesnt respond to the whip at all if he knows its comming, my body language was very soft tho in that vid and wasnt comming across as if i ment it, after the owners daughter longed him, it made me more confident as he is only really threatning and once u give it to him he relises hes not boss


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## nvr2many (Jan 18, 2011)

TBforever said:


> i say good boy, but its habit lol which isnt good because i use to ask for canter, hed trot and id say good boy, amount of times i had to correct myself LOL, he is only new to ground work,the lady that was helping gave up saying hes an aggressive animal,* i dont think hes aggressive*, but its mainly horse play the lady that was helping who was trying to do NH on him was swinging the end of her longe line near his face which was causing him to rear up and be annoyed,
> 
> *only time ive seen him aggressive was when he charged me as i was putting his rugs on while eating he took my sleave cuff off when he went me, *was very lucky he stopped after that, he never had problems with being touched while eating, which now he gets annoyed, didnt help our dog was annoying him as he retaliates to the dog, and bikes slamming acrross the road, he got a good smack to the mouth for that,
> 
> tis when i relised i need to be top dog not him



:shock:


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## Kayella (Feb 11, 2012)

TBforever said:


> he got cracked over the butt yesterday with the whip, as he doesnt listen and will play up, but he was great after that, he doesnt respond to the whip at all if he knows its comming, my body language was very soft tho in that vid and wasnt comming across as if i ment it, after the owners daughter longed him, it made me more confident as he is only really threatning and once u give it to him he relises hes not boss


If he doesn't respond to the whip, GIVE HIM a reason to respond to the whip. He's not responding because he knows you're bluffing. One good whack on that hiney of his will make him smart up real quick, believe me. He is asking the exact same thing you are right now. "Is she going to follow through with that aggression?" If he knows the answer is no, you're not going to get anywhere except getting hurt. This is not a laughing matter, stop taking it so lightly. This horse can KILL you if you don't already realize that. If his aggression is not stopped in its tracks now, it will only get worse and there will be one day where he WILL follow through.


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

i aint taking it lightley, its just i see his personality and hes more so a baby in the mind, if he could he would sit in ur lap, but ask him to work and hes an idiot, hes only been off the track for a year, and the racing stable owner baby'ed him gave him anything he wanted, hence why he failed as a race horse, as he was just an idiot for the trackworkers and jockeys,

yup he got a good crack on the butt with the whip, yesterday he pigrooted from it but was really great afterwards

i am glad he is good under saddle, altho after food change he is alot more lazy
he is new to ground work, altho i havent ridden him in almost 2 months as im still paying off a saddle, as other ones dont fit him.

i am also still learning ground work, and im finding it harder then riding


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## xlionesss (Jan 30, 2012)

TBforever said:


> i aint taking it lightley, its just i see his personality and hes more so a baby in the mind, if he could he would sit in ur lap, but ask him to work and hes an idiot, hes only been off the track for a year, and the racing stable owner baby'ed him gave him anything he wanted, hence why he failed as a race horse, as he was just an idiot for the trackworkers and jockeys,
> 
> yup he got a good crack on the butt with the whip, yesterday he pigrooted from it but was really great afterwards
> 
> ...




Horses are *not* puppies, and should definitely not be treated as such. As stated, if you do not start following through he very well may seriously injure or even kill you.

Don't look at his personality and say "aww he's so cute he can get away with going into my personal space, maybe even nipping will be okay today"
Horses are not stupid, they remember things. You need to be firm with him, don't let him get away with the slightest. My horse is cute, but you best believe if he even attempts to show disrespect he gets a nice long lesson in respect that very moment, not two days later.


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

yeah, im learning that, i also now know its body language, as when he did nip in the girth area i smacked him in mouth, and he came back for more 2 more times, so now when he does it i smack in mouth and shout miover and make sure my body language shows it, and he stops,


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

TBforever, I won't get into correcting you because you've received many good tips already and you are getting someone to help you. 

Usually with most horses, its not if but when they will act instead of threaten or warn. Very few will not follow through. We have one of each. Harley definitely kicks with intention. Lucy on the other hand is all bark and no bite. She'll stomp her hoof but never close at all. 

anebel, you are only the second person I've ever heard that want the horse to stop with its side to you. Not saying you're wrong because everyone has their own way. However, I prefer for the horse to turn towards me and give me both eyes of attention. If I may ask, why do you not want the horse to face you?

Working a horse on grass is not wrong because you're working it on its food. Yes, the horse can be distracted by wanting to eat. That is only if you let it. If the horse loses its focus on you, put it back to work or work harder. It makes them focus on you. If you let them lose focus, of course they'll try to eat.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

If the horse bolts, they are facing towards you, and it is an invasion of space into my circle.
As well for a horse with sidereins on you want them to stop and stand and wait for you to adjust them.

It is the way of lunging taught by all the classic lunging and ground work books. And has been taught to me by various trainers including an Olympian. It is the classic way to lunge because it is tried, true and safe.
Having the horse turn towards you is dangerous should they bolt, does not allow you to keep control of how quickly you are bringing the line in (and both together means the horse being tangled in the line). And it allows the horse to show disrespect by invading your circle. I always like to be approaching a stationary, calm horse.

But I guess with horses less high strung than a TB or less hot and strong willed than a WB it doesn't really matter... I'm used to dealing with horses who will bolt, buck and kick out without much warning or reason. And this is the safest way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

Double post. Stupid smartphone 😠


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

I can understand for ground driving but I've never had a horse bolt into the center. They've always bolted to the side or away. And yes, I have worked with some very high spirited or high strung horses. Arabs can be that way too. They can be very bull headed too or strong willed. 

Again not saying you're wrong, to each their own. I just prefer to have their head closer than their butt. It takes longer to turn a half circle than a quarter circle if they decide to kick out at you. Just saying.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## clairegillies (Nov 25, 2012)

tbforever, there is a lot of well meaning, good traditionl and respected advice in this post- however none of it has anything to do with natural horsemanship. though this is posted in the NH section of the forum.... 
if you want to learn that way of doing things its probably best to get an instructor out to see you , get some good groundwork skills . you could try joining Parelli connect, it is free for 30 days. see if you liked that way, or try Quantum Savvy, Cynthia Royal, Caroline Resnick. 
there are lots of natural horsemanship methods its a case of finding one that suits you.
sorry I am unable to post any links to any further information as links always get removed.

Claire


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

clairegillies said:


> tbforever, there is a lot of well meaning, good traditionl and respected advice in this post- however none of it has anything to do with natural horsemanship. though this is posted in the NH section of the forum....
> if you want to learn that way of doing things its probably best to get an instructor out to see you , get some good groundwork skills . you could try joining Parelli connect, it is free for 30 days. see if you liked that way, or try Quantum Savvy, Cynthia Royal, Caroline Resnick.
> there are lots of natural horsemanship methods its a case of finding one that suits you.
> sorry I am unable to post any links to any further information as links always get removed.
> ...


I have to strongly disagree with this. My advice, and that of many others, has everything to do with Natural Horsemanhip. NH should have plenty to do with making sure a hrose is very clear about where he can stand, how close he can come to the human, how promptly he must move off, and in what direction, and how he must not charge a human. There is not one thing I suggested that a decent NH trainer would not implement in that situation. even clocking the hrose in the face, if it charged them.

However, I will agree that the best scenario would be to use the slower, more careful and gentler techniques to fill in the gaps in the horse's training. That, however, requires that the handler be able to first get the horse to let go of ANY aggressive thinking. And that might look a bit rough for just a few minutes before it gets nicer, but it's still "natural horsemanship".


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## clairegillies (Nov 25, 2012)

@ tiny liny. well I ought to have known better than to try to post anything about nh in the nh section... really.
i'm so disappointed.


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

i brought a shorter longe rope today


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## Tayz (Jan 24, 2009)

You are just like I was. I was confused about how to actually lunge and it got to the point where my well broke mare would kick out and act up because she knew she had it over me. I got a riding instructor and now 2 months later I can confidently go and lunge her without anyone around. 
Your biggest thing is you need to get it in their mind that you are the herd master, your bigger then them, you call the shots. Get a round yard to help get more control otherwise keep head towards you and if he changes it kinda wiggle his head and if he doesnt turn his focus back to you then give a pull (if that makes sense thats what we do)
The biggest thing your really gonna have to be tough when he runs at you. I know how it feels to not want to hit the horse with a whip, believe me but my instructor insisted that if the horse kicked out at me to give a flick on the *** with the whip. She is now back to her former respectful self and I can lunge her perfectly. My opinion. Stop lunging, get a instructor to help you asap! It'll help you so much in the long run. The best thing I ever did was get an instructor to help me, I'm pretty sure you could benefit alot from one!

I hope this helps! I can't really say anything cause i'm still learning myself


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

You are NOT his authority. I like what Julie Goodnight said on a recent program.
"You are the captain, and your horse is your 1st mate, who must obey orders."
I'm gonna be kind. You don't know how to lunge and your horse is slow to respond. He keeps dissing you, first by not moving quickly away from the whip and then closing the circle on you. You added fuel to the fire by annoying him with the whip by not following through.
*First,* watch Clinton Anderson. THIS is the end result of correct respectful lunging. (You have to pay to watch HIM do this.)








See how these horses are both calm and obedient. Yank on that halter when he doesn't yield. He is 10x your size and it won't hurt him, just establishes WHO is in charge.
*Second,* store your lungeline, for now. It's asking to tangle and you will be hurt, NOT your horse.
*Third,* teach him to lead correctly, halt when you ask, back when you ask.
*Fourth,* _use a lead rope,_ a dressage whip and teach him to move his feet and yield. Go right, go left, go right, go left. I suggest 20 times for the first session. Then back him up about 20 steps. Use the whip on his chest IF he doesn't back using it on the lead in front of him, and MEAN IT!!! THEN, tie him up and let him think about this for an hour. Next session, same as the first.
I sympathize bc I couldn't get my original herd of horses to lunge. BUT, they were broken and constantly used for lessons. Any idiot could handle/ride them, so I didn't pursue it.
YOURS will hurt you, and YES, he will get more disrespectful as you tap at him like a girl fights, then let him win. Eventually he will just run you over.
You might want to get some help.
I am the kindest human and my horse's worst nightmare, depending upon their behavior. I pull out the monster whenEVER they willfully misbehave. It's worked for me for 27 years.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I agree with *Tinyliny *NH should be about using good traditional common sense, methods, its so diversified that as long as you aren't flogging the hide of the horse and wrapping barbed wire around its bit then its likely to come under the NH umbrella these days
I'm not sure if the OP's horse is an OTTB (ex racehorse) or maybe came off a big yard/barn but if he did then he would have been treated in a no nonsense fashion because they don't have the time for Drama Queens. He's suddenly feeling his feet and testing the water to see how far he can push things and trying where he can to call the shots. I actually like a horse with this sort of character because it means he's smart and when you use that on your terms you end up with a really interesting horse that is capable of learning a lot more than a robot type
I like Carolyn Resnick but I think the Parelli approach would just irritate him - he needs really structured work not a lot of games - he knows exactly what to do - he just doesn't see why he should be doing it right now.
If he's been bullied in the past into work rather than encouraged to work willingly then like most horses that have been trained that way the moment they realize they have an owner who is less confident they become the bully - a bit like children of abusive parents often become abusers themselves
I'm not an aggressive person but if a horse tries to pull a dangerous stunt on me then its going to get one heck of a whack that it wont forget in a hurry - and then we can move on.


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## BaileyJo (Aug 23, 2011)

You have no leadership. The lunging was really almost a joke, clumsey and awkward. He treats it as such because that what you are portraying. I wouldn't listen to you either. I almost felt sorry for your horse.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

@Clairgillies. I am sorry you feel I was out of line, but I think you are perhaps thinking that because this is a NH forum, that no dissenting opinion is allowed? Sorry, but the main purpose for creating a seperate forum for Nat. horsemanship followers/practitioners was to keep the personal bashing of NH trainers at bay. I have not said one word about a trainer, nor about you and your training. 

I only want to express that I do not think firmly dealing with a horse that makes aggresive displays is outside of Natural Horsemanship. If NH is using the language that a horse uses within its' herd, then by all interpretations of that logic, you, as the leader of that herd of two , will firmly and instantly rebuke any subordinate horse that threatens you, as that horse did the handler.
ONCE is all it takes, then the horse knows where he stands in the herd, and REAL violence is averted. That is the way a herd keeps it's balance and its' peace, and we can emulate that.

If I offended you, I do apologize. I just disagree with some folks thinking that any use of negative force is unnatural and not part of NH, because I do not see it as outside of that realm. When needed, it is the quickest and ultimately most effective and permanent solution. IN a case like this, one good hard smack is much more merciful to the horse then a long series of taps or swinging of sticks/strings and such.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

interesting videos. It might be better for a seperate thread, but when I watch that second video I see a horse that is moving in a very "rote" manner, is counter bent much of the time, very stiff in his body, mentally outside of the pen and resentful of the way the handler asks for sudden turns without any kind of preperation at all. And, the horse is very far from having a soft feel to that line. It knows the drill and it jumps to it, for sure, and maybe that might help the OP, but it's not an example of really good lunging, IMO.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

It's a start and better than the OP's horses behavior. Found them fast, excuse any descrepencies.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Like Tayz posted, it is so much easier when you have an instructor giving you hands on help. You can gets tips and pointers from forums and videos however without someone there watching and instructing you, there is too many variables to factor in. Save yourself the aggravation and get some lessons, it will be the best money you ever spent on your horsey pursuits.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Agreed.


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

jaydee said:


> I agree with *Tinyliny *NH should be about using good traditional common sense, methods, its so diversified that as long as you aren't flogging the hide of the horse and wrapping barbed wire around its bit then its likely to come under the NH umbrella these days
> I'm not sure if the OP's horse is an OTTB (ex racehorse) or maybe came off a big yard/barn but if he did then he would have been treated in a no nonsense fashion because they don't have the time for Drama Queens. He's suddenly feeling his feet and testing the water to see how far he can push things and trying where he can to call the shots. I actually like a horse with this sort of character because it means he's smart and when you use that on your terms you end up with a really interesting horse that is capable of learning a lot more than a robot type
> I like Carolyn Resnick but I think the Parelli approach would just irritate him - he needs really structured work not a lot of games - he knows exactly what to do - he just doesn't see why he should be doing it right now.
> If he's been bullied in the past into work rather than encouraged to work willingly then like most horses that have been trained that way the moment they realize they have an owner who is less confident they become the bully - a bit like children of abusive parents often become abusers themselves
> I'm not an aggressive person but if a horse tries to pull a dangerous stunt on me then its going to get one heck of a whack that it wont forget in a hurry - and then we can move on.



yes he is an ottb, hes been off the track just under 1 yr, i also have 2 instructors, 1 who works with ottb's, whose very blunt, and doesnt take sh*t from them, she had him very good, he then went to another person, who i live with, who was training him for a hack, he was getting good, but was rushed into hack, he then got laid off work for 2 months,as owner wanted her other horse back and thats when problems started when he got use to not working .
ppl i live with their type of lunging is just going in a circle to get energy out,
i dont want to just do that i want to put in place cues, i am the only one who beleives and likes NH

hes not use to groundwork, the lunging he was getting prior to me getting him were side reins, which he almost flipped himself over on his back.

our farrier loves miover's quirkyness, and personality,


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## BaileyJo (Aug 23, 2011)

TBforever said:


> hes not use to groundwork, the lunging he was getting prior to me getting him were side reins, which he almost flipped himself over on his back.


This is very disturbing for me. Did you have someone help you put these on? I am not convinced you are ready to deal with a horse at this level of training. You don't seem to know exactly what you are doing, even with an instructor. You really need a dead head for your level of expertise.


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

oh i dont use side reins this was owners daughter, i wouldnt use side reins no way, it would be deadly if i attemtped it


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

if i had a propper round yard id much prefer to not use a longe line


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

and i dont like the head down look, i like head up, normal horse walk, this was when he was training to be a hack


ETA, i dont mind other people doing head down look, its just not my style


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

hes only going to be a pony club , and trail riding horse, and way later down track few jumps, 






this was my very first lesson on miover

please dont be to harsh i was pretty anxious


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

He's a nice horse with a lot of potential. YOu did pretty well, but did you want a critiqe on your riding?


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

i know most of my faults, like balance, and heels down which i do now, if u can see more that would be great plz say

i longed miover today which video is downloading, and he did mostley what was asked!!!!!!, no pin ears or nothing!!!!! YAY!, i had a much shorter longe rope


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## clairegillies (Nov 25, 2012)

TBforever said:


> i dont want to just do that i want to put in place cues, i am the only one who beleives and likes NH
> 
> ,


I believe your heart is in the right place, however there is little information given to you on this thread that has anything to do with NH at all. the best thing would be to get into a dedicated programme and follow it from the ground up. Quantum Savvy starts from very basics and leads right up to performance level. Parelli also does that, though people seem to 'love to hate Parelli' as they are quite commercialised. 
Quantum Savvy has a friendly forum that members can use to ask for advice, and there everybody is of the same mindset so confusion can be avoided. 

Claire


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

lunging from today


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

i sound like an idiot lol


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

clairegillies said:


> I believe your heart is in the right place, however there is little information given to you on this thread that has anything to do with NH at all. the best thing would be to get into a dedicated programme and follow it from the ground up. Quantum Savvy starts from very basics and leads right up to performance level. Parelli also does that, though people seem to 'love to hate Parelli' as they are quite commercialised.
> Quantum Savvy has a friendly forum that members can use to ask for advice, and there everybody is of the same mindset so confusion can be avoided.
> 
> Claire


 Why does it have to have a name to be NH? Seems to me that you don't consider it unless it does. Big mistake. Many of us do "NH", with a combination of methods from many of the recognized names, rather than following just one. Does that mean we don't do NH? Don't think so. I think it means we are smart enough to realize that one method does not fit all situations, even with the same horse. We can all benefit from more "tools" and they all have something to offer. None of them have cornered the market on good horsemanship, IMO.

Oh-and to Anebel-we only have a grass arena-and the horses learn to pay attention. Not a bad lesson, IMO.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

clairegillies said:


> @ tiny liny. well I ought to have known better than to try to post anything about nh in the nh section... really.
> i'm so disappointed.


NATURAL HORSEMANSHIP is not a name 'trademarked' by any particular Guru. WE ALL USE NATURAL HORSEMANSHIP when we use a horse's natural 'hardwired' nature to train any horse. 'Herd dynamics' have been studied by many people and no one Clinician or trainer or instructor can claim to 'own' Natural Horsemanship. While some BNTs and clinicians try to claim it for their own and try to brainwash followers into acting like they have the ONLY answer to good training and horsemanship techniques, they are , in my humble opinion, 'false prophets' that are in the game only to make a lot of money and create 'disciples' instead of good, solid trainers and riders.

Note -- I am not naming names. I think there is more than one of these BNTs that likes to separate people from their money and create devout followers in the process. 

No one has to follow any one single program or mentor to be good at teaching horses to do what is useful and acceptable to their owners and riders. After all, if we wanted what is truly 'natural' for a horse, we would castrate none of them, turn them all lose, teach them nothing and let them be 'natural horses'. Not exactly what any Natural Training Gurus promote is it?


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

did anyone watch my lunging from today lol and is it any beter?


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Looks better to me-I would suggest that you ask-tell-demand, when you want him to do something, which is mostly what you do, but then-be quiet until you ask for something else. You are nagging him, which gets annoying to horses and people. ;-)


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

Your body language was much stronger and clearer in the last video. Well done. There is still room for improvement, but that is always true, no matter how long you have been doing it. A word of advice about the talking/scolding/praising. Use your voice when its warranted but not constantly, as franknbeans was saying. This was something I had issues with for a long time, and still have to catch myself once in a while. You want the verbal cues to reinforce your signals, but if you are always making various noises, they will eventually tune you out, as it becomes background noise to them. So use sparingly, and have a specific sound or command for what you want. For example, I click twice for a trot, kiss twice for a canter, and use whoa. If the noise does not get the required reaction, I reinforce with body language. The only other times I make noise are to shush at then as a correction (or whatever noise works for you) and "good boy/girl" only at the end when I am finished and have brought them to a halt, usually along with a good scratching and petting. Everything else is visual or line cues such as leading/pointing the way you want him to travel. 

The only exception I make to my own personal noise rule now is for my one gelding who is blind, as the constant stream of noise gives him comfort as he always knows where I am, and even then, I usually choose to hum, as he is trained to voice commands as well and I don't want to confuse him.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Same goes for clucking, kissing, etc....which is my issue. ;-)


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

From your riding he looks like a really tolerant horse - you are a self admitted novice and he actually doesn't take advantage of that
Your lunging was a lot better. I'd still like to see you be more purposeful when you lead him in - give him more direction rather than allowing him to wander wherever he pleases
People use different cues - this is what works for me
*Whooooa* - drawn out sound, voice low but insistent means slow down to halt
*Stand* - means stand
*Walk on* - Clipped with emphasis on the 'K' means walk on
*Trot on* - Clipped, lively, encouraging - a bit like the action of the trot
*Canter* - I draw out the 'ter' bit and make the sound similar to the movement of canter
I also use B*ack & Over*
I do talk to reassure a horse if needed and also other X rated stuff when they **** me off but too much chat can be confusing and cause them to lose concentration in the learning stages
You've learnt how to use the 'bad boy' voice and he understood that 
Try to reserve the 'Good boy' for when he earns it. 
If he goes into a gait on his own - no 'good boy' and insist he goes back to what he'd been asked for and then give him the 'good boy'
I do use a 'clicking' sound as an 'alert' sometimes but rather not rely on it for cues because its a total pain in the *** when you're out on a trail or in a show ring and people are clicking their horses and yours thinks its his/her cue to do something.


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## nvr2many (Jan 18, 2011)

Wow, totally better! Not perfect, but who's is, lol. I did not see the aggression I saw in the first one. Good job! You seem more confident also! I am sure he senses it! Just keep him doing what "YOU" want him to do until you decide otherwise.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Yes, better.

make your inner circle (the three tires) a bit larger, and allow yourself to actually walk a very small cirlce within it. you are almost spinning on your "inside" foot, which is practically planted in teh middle, as the outside foot steps around it. Becuase, I see you stepping backward, just astep, but it's still a body language that is uncertain and invites the hrose to think "slow" or "turn to the center", when you are trying to drive him forward. 

When he doesn't canter at the 2nd time asking, "fall apart". Get really serious and smack the ground witht he whip hard enough it makes noise, and take a step toward his middle. Be VERY sure you do not step into his kicking range, but the forward push of your body and the increased whip action should push him to leap into a canter smartly. then the next time, just a slightly raised whip and voice will do it.

When he is going well, lower the whip so it's almost dragging on the ground. Raise it for commands, and lower it when the horse answers correctly.

Upward transitions use an upward going voice, "Can-ter^" and downward, a falling voice "Tee- rot,"


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

jaydee said:


> From your riding he looks like a really tolerant horse - you are a self admitted novice and he actually doesn't take advantage of that
> Your lunging was a lot better. I'd still like to see you be more purposeful when you lead him in - give him more direction rather than allowing him to wander wherever he pleases
> People use different cues - this is what works for me
> *Whooooa* - drawn out sound, voice low but insistent means slow down to halt
> ...




saying good boy is a habit for me lol, in that video that was the best ive lunged and him!!!!

i was so happy when i got the 2nd turn right!!!!!omg first time ever!


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## michaelvanessa (Apr 25, 2012)

*lungeing*

your horse is showing a threaterning posture you must send him forward and keep his impultion going.
i noted you did.
the other think which would benifit you as your lungeing in a paddock of loveley grass is a muzzle for your horse its a great peice of equipment to have that will be an attention geter as he cant eat or bite and he has to work on the lunge.
the other thing i must say is keep your lunge line looped as your geting tangled there if the horse drops in to the circle use your wip crack it.
i know you should not hit your horse with a lunge wip but one small strike may make him think again.
or if he charges charge back and he should retreat quite rapidley.
and crack the wip as well.
try thoes and i think youll be on to a winner with your horse and dont for get to reward him for his good work.


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

tinyliny said:


> Yes, better.
> 
> make your inner circle (the three tires) a bit larger, and allow yourself to actually walk a very small cirlce within it. you are almost spinning on your "inside" foot, which is practically planted in teh middle, as the outside foot steps around it. Becuase, I see you stepping backward, just astep, but it's still a body language that is uncertain and invites the hrose to think "slow" or "turn to the center", when you are trying to drive him forward.
> 
> ...


ohhh, i noticed i do it for walk LOL
ill do that when lunge today,

i think i was caught up and excited that i got his second turn right, and he never played up!


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

yup i totally aggree with nagging....1 thing i could of made lunge line abit longer
and i was trying to get him to look at me, altho he was listening you can see that by his ears, but he kept looking away


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

michaelvanessa said:


> your horse is showing a threaterning posture you must send him forward and keep his impultion going.
> i noted you did.
> the other think which would benifit you as your lungeing in a paddock of loveley grass is a muzzle for your horse its a great peice of equipment to have that will be an attention geter as he cant eat or bite and he has to work on the lunge.
> the other thing i must say is keep your lunge line looped as your geting tangled there if the horse drops in to the circle use your wip crack it.
> ...


how do you keep it in a loop without it wrapping over ur hand?

id do carots as a treat but hes a nipper so ive stopped the carots to discourage nipping, i tried carot excercisers but took me 5 mins to get him to stop looking for more carots lol


he is a great horse, and is very very tolerant and patient with me

the lady who was attempting NH on him when he was rearing was constantly waving the end of rope at his ear and annoying him, hes never reared me on longe he usually stops or pin ears, thats why im so happy with my last lunging that there was none of this, altho the start was iffy, but turned good afterwards


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

nvr2many said:


> Wow, totally better! Not perfect, but who's is, lol. I did not see the aggression I saw in the first one. Good job! You seem more confident also! I am sure he senses it! Just keep him doing what "YOU" want him to do until you decide otherwise.


thankyou so much!, i made sure i left it on a good note, altho did feel like more then 5 minutes LOL

i still got more consisenty to work on, i really should of got up his butt when he refused to canter

but i was so wrapped up that he was being good that i didnt relise that he wasnt being good as he was refusing to canter lol

and i have a habit of saying goood boy lol which is great, but it needs to be warrented, i asked canter he only trotted and i said good boy! blah LOL


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

is the licking of the chops at the end, a good sign, or was he processing everything he did wrong? lol


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The licking is a sign of a horse being relaxed - though mine also do it after eating something nice!!!
Don't loop the lunge line around your hand but fold it up and feed it through as you need, - how can I say this - into bunches? I usually have the end in one hand and the folded section in the other, I'm sure someone else has a better word for what I mean
It all feels like a complicated juggling trick at present but you will get there
Lay off the carrots for a while - you have enough to deal with getting his respect but later on address the issue if you do want to use treats - avoidance isn't a cure for the problem. You can always give him a tasty snack in his stable or a bucket when he's finished work and been brushed over etc - and then do the whole praise thing


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

I think what jaydee is trying to describe is fold it into an accordion or zigzag, and then grab it around the middle so it is layered back and forth in your hand instead of looped. Then it will slide out as you need it without getting tangled or without wrapping itself around your hand if he bolts.


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

ohh i sort of had it that way, it was managing the whip and trying to get more rope lol that was the problem, only treat he will eat is carots,

so i usually give him hay after a workout


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

apachiedragon said:


> I think what jaydee is trying to describe is fold it into an accordion or zigzag, and then grab it around the middle so it is layered back and forth in your hand instead of looped. Then it will slide out as you need it without getting tangled or without wrapping itself around your hand if he bolts.


 See I knew someone here would do a better job of what I was trying to say!!!
Thank you


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

well todays lunging wasnt as good as yesterday,tomorow might be a better day


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

TBforever said:


> well todays lunging wasnt as good as yesterday,tomorow might be a better day


 Keep in mind that horses that are intelligent can often get really bored with too much repetition and like some children that are the same way will become disruptive, non compliant & inventive to liven things up a bit
I found it most with the arabian that I had, it was like he was saying 'I can do this in my sleep stupid human lets challenge me a bit'. I was constantly looking for new things to do with him to keep his mind working for the good.
Maybe you need to get more creative.


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

ive got him going over jumps, on the lunge, maybe i should take him over some trot poles?


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

some of yesterdays lunge


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Do you see how much better he went forward when you circled also? I mean you, walked a very small circle so that you had life and movement on your feet and you face him and kept driving him forward. YOu can make that circle even smaller, and take great care not to cut too close in front of him. What I mean, is if you start circleing too fast, you end up getting in front of his shoulder and that is the body language for him to stop, or stop and turn the other direction. Or, he may feel pinched between you and the barrier and start chucking his head or acting up due to feeling squeezxed.

Never back up. you are backing up practically the entire time you lunge him at a walk. Walk (or rather pivot) on the same inside circle, and push the horse forward. Don't back away from him to get him to go around. He ends up lunging you!

If he leans too hard on the lungeline, give it a couple of short sharp tugs to remind him to not do that. When he starts looking outward, like he does, bring his attention back toward you. either hiss at him or kick some dust , or tap the ground with your foot, or ? get creative, but some small thing to interrupt that outward thinking on his part and get him to look at you and go , "What?", then direct him on.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Proud of you!!! You took advice and applied it. Still a ways to go, but much improved.


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

Thankyou  I felt Abit insecure without. my tyers. there lol ,me and him both have the same flimsy side lol he's very hard to get cantering on one side.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Take baby steps. Try to accomplish one thing at a time....not everything all at once. Maybe wait for the canter and just work with walk and trot for a while with changes of direction. Once you have him going well that way, step it up to canter. Meanwhile, you will get more comfortable with your equipment and body language. You will also learn how to start reading your horse's body language.


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

yeah will just work on what u suggested he canters wen he throws a tanty lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

im glad to say that miover really responds well when i use the word "UH", when hes eating and im rugging him he pins ears, or turns to bite i say "UH" step towards him and he goes back to eating, when lungeing i say "UH" in firm voice when hes about to go down to eat grass he lifts his head up within seconds of saying "UH", sometimes i think he does it purpose to hear the "UH" LOL

he still has alot of manners to learn, like when grooming and hes had enough he shoves u with his hindquaters as if ur not standing their i usually shove him back to stand where i want himn to stand,, hes not a kicker but im sure he is capable of it, but hes never threatened it, i can stand behined him and play with his tail...his belly is what he hates. hes slowely tolerating it from me.

teehee i cleaned out his water yesterday, and he came over and was sticking his head under the hose...he LOVES the hose esp on face, just on the cheek near his side of mouth, i swear hes like a huge dog lol


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

That was a lot better. 
You led him in like you meant business and so positive from you from the start
He sounds like he's basically a really nice horse and just needs challenging a bit so yes use trotting poles and even get some cones and do stuff like leading him in and out of them and backing up between them - anything to keep his mind occupied
Energize your own body language as he'll pick up on that too - not threatening but encouraging. While I was watching you on that video I felt like I wanted to bounce up and down on the spot to somehow liven everything up a bit


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Yes, I agree with Jaydee....match your body language to what you are asking of the horse. Don't sit like a bump on the log if you want him to move. Moving towards him is predatory and backing away means submissive. If you want more energy, bring your energy up with your movements and body language...you get bigger essentially. When you want his energy to come down/slow down, bring your energy down and sink into yourself....making your self smaller. Remember to give him a chance and ask him first to do what you want, increasing that pressure if he doesn't respond. Once he responds, immediately release the pressure as reward. He will also learn verbal cues...so what ever words work....use them consistently.

NEVER punish and hold a grudge. If you have to correct...be firm, but fair....then let it all go and act like you are whistling a tune and nothing ever happend.


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## nvr2many (Jan 18, 2011)

^^^^ This! I cannot "like" this enough!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Oldhorselady said:


> Yes, I agree with Jaydee....match your body language to what you are asking of the horse. Don't sit like a bump on the log if you want him to move. Moving towards him is predatory and backing away means submissive. If you want more energy, bring your energy up with your movements and body language...you get bigger essentially. When you want his energy to come down/slow down, bring your energy down and sink into yourself....making your self smaller. Remember to give him a chance and ask him first to do what you want, increasing that pressure if he doesn't respond. Once he responds, immediately release the pressure as reward. He will also learn verbal cues...so what ever words work....use them consistently.
> 
> NEVER punish and hold a grudge. If you have to correct...be firm, but fair....then let it all go and act like you are whistling a tune and nothing ever happend.


 I so love it when other people make sense out of what I'm wittering on about and then explain it so much better than I can!!!
It means that I'm not talking total gibberish. My brain feels like scrambled eggs these days. I should never have volunteered to be my husbands underpaid Admin!!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Yes. that's a good explanation. Especially about having your body mirror your intention. If you want him to go, there should be "go" energy in your body. YOu stand more upright, your chest sticks out a bit, you kind of have a "lift" in your step. For the "slow down" you do the opposite, as OHL said, you kind of sink into yourself and emphasize the outward breath. It's you showing through your body the intention in your mind.

If you want him to canter, when you ask for that, have a real committment in your mind of "Canter!" and raise the energy in your body . HE willl feel this. He may play up a bit, essentially tantrumming, but that does not matter. Just stay true on your course of directing him to do what you asked. His tantrum is his releaseing of the resistance. Let him release it if he must, but do NOT stop what you are asking just becuase he is upset. that will only teach him to play up and tantrum MORE. Stay calm and go through with the request. you just keep asking , no harder, no softer, until he move on. then like OHL said, continue as if nothing happened.


I think you should learn how to "send" this horse places. it's basically making him move away from you., and to where you direct him. This might be considered a "game" by some,. since Parelli uses it. I dont 'know what he calls it, but you start sending the horse over to a barrel or a stump or something, and you can put a small treat there. (put it there ahead of time) you don't treat him by hand, and you dont' treat very often, but the idea is to sharpen your ability and his willingness to be sent away from you but still be mentally "on line".


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

awwe I couldn't hold a grudge against him lol he such a lovely horse ,lol I was practicing tone of tree rot lol . you would never have thought there was so much into lunging . he listens really well when I say " UH" which is good


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

my time with miover <3


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## Smokum (May 4, 2012)

One thing I would like to say is when your lunging your horse make your shoulders a wall towards his barrel, level with his shoulders & hip. Stay still, in the middle..
If any horse threatens you, threaten them back!
When your horse came around you.... You gave him a open invitation to come into your space, if that happens step at him, arms up & scream YO!!! & check his *** right back out in that circle!!

I would definitely try to start making his lounging a bit more mentally fun for him.
Try working all different transitions (walk, trot, canter, stop backing, turning) faster, slower. The more you make his feet move the more attention he has on you!!

When you start lounging, send him right off in that circle, dont give him a moment to think about anything but you! even when his head pulls your arm away, give him a tug back & send him off in a different direction, or make him change transitions. Make him think about distracting away from you again! or make him work for it.

&&&& for the girth!!!!
Start off slowly, like one little hole at a time if you have to, everything is baby steps! if you can put a saddle on his back & take the girth around his belly and he is fine about all that but the moment you zip up that girth he brings his head around to nip you, you maybe doing it to fast and tight. 

Bring the girth up super slowly slowly & softly to see where he starts bending his ear towards you or OR JUST BEFORE that moment when you know he turns in to nip, EVEN going slow and soft just STOP & clip it there. walk away. He will be SOO confused!!! If he was tense he will drop it & be left thinking.


See you have the power to give and take pressure.
USE IT AGAINST HIM!
If you know the second before he will do something, leave it just right there & step away, he will take a breath and be relieved. 
After he stands for a minute return, pet him & start just handling and fondling the girth, dont bring it up just play with it & wiggle it.
because here your not tightening it your just testing the waters & his attitude.
If he turns & bends in a inch to nip crack him one before he even know what hit him!
After that, try to bring up your girth, again softly and slowly up the next hole or two. If that doesnt work I would put him on the lounge line & if he tride to nip again I would back him to the moon every nippin chance he tried to get!


Your working baby steps & testing his boundaries & catching him before he can react...

He sounds like a sneaky little boy & you may just have to get one step a head.
A Lot of horse language is needed


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

thankyou

yeap he is very sneaky, esp when he turned all of a sudden,

i rode him today,i put the martingles back on him to stop him rising his head like a turkey, he didnt like it lolafter 30 mins i got a full circle with just trot without him jumping around, so i left it as that being the good note


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

i found this guys lungeing good


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

If you need a martingale he has bit problems or your hands. When you next ride, keep him circling starting with 10' circles. Keep him bent but do not put continual pressure on the bit. Open and close your fingers in a rhythmic fashion. Go both ways. Only when he will keep his head down do you enlarge the circle a bit to make it more comfortable for him. If his head shoots up go back to the smaller circles. A loose ring snaffle with an iron mouth is a good bit to use to teach him lightness.


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

the top bit is his old bit, the bottom bit is the one i use now,

i was doing circles both ways,i can say tho, he wasnt rushing towards gate

see without martingles on, he raises head, usually thats the indicater hes about to do somthing stupid,

this first vid was my very very first time ever on him u can see the lack of control i had of him, very embarrassing tho






and now


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

he bridled PERFECT! today, lunged him in morning took off to an iffy start, but by the end he did great,, we did 20 mins lunging today!, around 3pm i rode he was great! bridled great, walked great listened alot more, his trot was aweful wasnt his true trot, was a naughty trot,, but we got a full arena trot, even tho it wasnt a real trot he still done it without fighting, he even collected SHOCK he hasnt done that for ages! only collected for like 5 mins, but he done it yay, dont know what tomorow will bring lol but today he was great


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## ReneeM (Jan 11, 2012)

Sorry if someone has already said this but the first thing i'd do is chuck out the webbing halter and the light lunge lead you're using. Get a rope halter and a heavy lead that won't stretch and has some weight in it. You'll have much better control. Plus maybe find someone who can give you and him some lungeing lessons so you start working together


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

it is a rope halter?...this is the exact one i use,, only type he doesnt seem to snap


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Each to their own but I would never lunge a horse in anything but a good fitting, preferably padded leather headcollar (UK speak for halter) or lunging cavesson
IMO a rope halter is going to move around too much on a horse that doesn't quite understand what its supposed to be going and more likely to rub the face


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

I use a rope halter for lunging. I find that if it's tied correctly, it actually send signals that are much clearer that a wide halter. Plus it has the added benefit of keeping a stronger horse from leaning or bracing on the halter, since it is uncomfortable for them to do so. They have to learn to carry themselves. I have never had one rub, or even leave a mark, or be confusing.


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## Light (Mar 4, 2012)

I'm sorry but I don't have time to read every response. This may have been already said. He looks like a horse that could have ulcers. Ulcers are painful and can make a nice horse be very not nice. It is something you might want to look into. My horse has ulcers and it really can make her very angry due to the pain. (she is being treated now). Although she is only ever aggressive to her barn, corral pipes, or other horses, and only if I am not there.

I would not lunge with a line for right now. You could get really hurt. He could get really hurt. 

He is a very good looking horse by the way. 

If you can get a trainer, even one lesson a week would help you so much. Just get the right kind of trainer. Not a person to butt heads with him but one that will be smarter than him and show you how to better control his actions. 

I would work on having him walk with you, not behind or infront of you but at your side about 4 feet away from you. Work on stopping and he must stop with his shoulder at your body or he has to back up. You may want to do that with him any time you think he isn't paying attention. 

Make sure he is getting enough excersize too. 

But wait on the lunging until you are confident doing it or a real tragity could happen. Believe me, I know. 

One thing that is important is to be confident in everything you do. Even if you aren't, fake it. The horse won't know the difference, for the most part. But if your body language and thinking is that you aren't sure of what your doing, he will pick up on that right away. 

I don't think he is a bad horse by any means. He's just treating you like you are his equal, and that is a very dangerous thing. So, remember that you have to act like a leader. Be cool and calm. If he goes into your space go into his space with the whip held high and make yourself large as you can. But really I would be getting a trainer if I were you. 

If money is an issue sometimes they will let you work off lessons. 

Good luck and I do think he is beautiful

But the best of course would be to get a trainer to help you. It may take several before you find one you like but soon enough you will and that should help you so much.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

apachiedragon said:


> I use a rope halter for lunging. I find that if it's tied correctly, it actually send signals that are much clearer that a wide halter. Plus it has the added benefit of keeping a stronger horse from leaning or bracing on the halter, since it is uncomfortable for them to do so. They have to learn to carry themselves. I have never had one rub, or even leave a mark, or be confusing.


 As I said - its each to their own and if something works for you then you go with that
In the UK we just don't use rope halters - other than maybe in recent years people who've latched on to the Parelli & Co. thing and 'gone western'.
The nearest thing we have to rope halters is a canvas and rope thing considered to be a 'poor mans' halter that they leave on some auction horses as per rules that they have to be left with some sort of a headcollar and the broad white canvas ones they traditionally show welsh cobs in


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## ReneeM (Jan 11, 2012)

Yes TBForever that's the type I mean. It's funny to see how different we do things all around the world, one of the many reasons I like this forum! 
the reason i'd never use anything but a rope halter is I believe webbing or leather halters train the horse to lean and pull on the handle where as a rope halter gains much more respect and keeps your horse lighter. I also would never use a light long lunge lead like the one in your 1st video I think they act like an elastic band and no 'bump' can travel down it to your horses head if he gets ignorant.


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

i really wanted a vet out but was told its unnecessary money and had to cancel longing has improved if u watched my other videos


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## Light (Mar 4, 2012)

Hey;

You can only do the best you can and it sounds like you are doing your best. It sucks when you aren't able to do what you want to for your horse. But don't stress it. Just do what you can and continue to learn and improve.


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

lightning said:


> Hey;
> 
> You can only do the best you can and it sounds like you are doing your best. It sucks when you aren't able to do what you want to for your horse. But don't stress it. Just do what you can and continue to learn and improve.


thanks!

i tried lunging w/o a whip yesterday, no go lol, he wouldnt move and when i did get him moving he would stop, id walk towards him with a i mean it body language he just stood there and pinned ears, he was a butt, so got whip out and he listened, didnt pop him with it tho, but him seeing it encourages him to move


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

our ride today, was practising to get him to listen to my commands esp on his off side which we suceeded!, was 34mins long had to shorten it lol


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

part 2


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

ReneeM said:


> Yes TBForever that's the type I mean. It's funny to see how different we do things all around the world, one of the many reasons I like this forum!
> the reason i'd never use anything but a rope halter is I believe webbing or leather halters train the horse to lean and pull on the handle where as a rope halter gains much more respect and keeps your horse lighter. I also would never use a light long lunge lead like the one in your 1st video I think they act like an elastic band and no 'bump' can travel down it to your horses head if he gets ignorant.



teehee if ur aussie i am to


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The fact that he's an OTTB and is happy to ride so quietly on a wide open space must tell you what a basically good temperament he has


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

he is a great ottb, 7 yrs old and is just under a yr off the track


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

i found out the bridling issue, he likes ur hand holding bridle above eyes and having the bit in ur palm of hand, to slowley put in his mouth


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## ReneeM (Jan 11, 2012)

TBforever said:


> teehee if ur aussie i am to


Sure am!  What state are you from? I'm in NSW


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

ReneeM said:


> Sure am!  What state are you from? I'm in NSW


nsw central coast


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## ReneeM (Jan 11, 2012)

TBforever said:


> nsw central coast


cool  are you planning on going up to tocal field day this weekend?


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

ReneeM said:


> cool  are you planning on going up to tocal field day this weekend?


never heard of it lol what is it?


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## ReneeM (Jan 11, 2012)

TBforever said:


> never heard of it lol what is it?


lol well you need to read up  its such a great 3 days 
From their website...
The Tocal Field Days are held every year in the first weekend in May. Our visitors include people on the land who are looking for the latest innovations, hobby farmers and enthusiasts and people just looking for a great day out.
Whether you enjoy piglet races, great food and wine, fencing demonstrations or the Grand Parade you can be sure the event will not disappoint. Our Exhibitors bring to you all the latest in farming techniques and technologies from solar energy to fencing construction

If you end up going... which you should lol, come and visit my site, number 290A


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

rode again today..even tho all the other horses in next paddock were being silly, had 1 bucking, and another lot cantering and bucking up the fenceline with next doors pony, dunno what was with all the horses being silly LOL

miover went relitively well, concidering the distractions, ill be taking him to pony club this weekend, we will probably have to give him a calmer, if he is to restless for me and the 14 yr old will trade...since choco is still fairly sick and not fit to ride yet as now he will have to fatten up again as hes lost a little due to being sick

another day of a good bridling, 4th day now of excepting the bridle, dunno what ive done good but hes not fighting it no more yay


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

ReneeM said:


> lol well you need to read up  its such a great 3 days
> From their website...
> The Tocal Field Days are held every year in the first weekend in May. Our visitors include people on the land who are looking for the latest innovations, hobby farmers and enthusiasts and people just looking for a great day out.
> Whether you enjoy piglet races, great food and wine, fencing demonstrations or the Grand Parade you can be sure the event will not disappoint. Our Exhibitors bring to you all the latest in farming techniques and technologies from solar energy to fencing construction
> ...


where is tocal?


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## ReneeM (Jan 11, 2012)

TBforever said:


> where is tocal?


Near Paterson and about 20 minutes from East Maitland


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

todays ride.....his trots horrid to ride LOL is really fast!

didnt help other horses were being turkeys


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Those horses racing around would have freaked out a lot of non- OTTB's, he's got the potential to be a really good horse
His biting issues & disrespect on the lunge seem to be a different thing altogether. You just need to keep on asserting yourself.
He's quite coltish/stallionish in that behavior. Was he maybe not properly castrated? Its not uncommon for them to deliberately do it with racehorses as it gives them a bit more aggressive 'attitude' on the track.


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

i have always wondered whether he was gelded properly ,because my trainer got her 4 yr old warmblood tested for that . ppl I live with say he was gelded properly .he is a totally different horse under saddle he still chucks tantys but no where near as bad when on ground


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

i got on him other day and as I got I went flying off the other side and he just looked at me then grazed on grass lol


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

*few jumping snaps with me on tom*


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

was an alright job for first time lol, first shots best


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## Kuro (Apr 29, 2013)

Hey!
I just wanna say something about the lunge. I think you are very agressive (i'm sure that's not your goal). And this is the reason why your horse move the head and wanna leave!
The video you put before is a very good exemple, look the men is very calm, and the horse is reactiv! 
You must understand that energy is not the same than agressivity... and you have a lot of energy and agressivity.
In Parelli we speak about "phases" phase 1,2,3 and 4. You are always in phase 4. 

An exemple for the phases:
Horse Training Games - the Yo-Yo Game

*Get Started with the Yo-Yo Game*
The first step in teaching the Yo-Yo Game to start on the ground and make sure your horse has pretty good Friendly, Porcupine and Driving. Then you need to practice the phases for sending your horse backwards and bringing him back to you. 

*The Four Phases for sending your horse backwards*

_Begin with your horse’s nose at about arm’s length from you and holding the very end of your lead rope in your hand. Give your horse a "Schwiegermutter" look (means German Mother-in-Law!) like you are another horse laying his ears back. Lift up your hand and wiggle just your index finger at him. When you wiggle your finger, the lead rope shouldn’t move at all.
Close your fingers on the rope and shake just your wrist. The rope should move a little, but it shouldn’t make the halter move at all. (Keep giving him ‘the look’)
Lock your wrist tight and bend your arm at the elbow. Move your forearm back and forth. This should cause the rope and the halter to move so your horse can now feel it quite a bit.
Lock your arm really straight and swing your entire arm from your shoulder joint. You may want to even spread your legs a bit to give you some stability while you are swinging your arm. Your horse will really feel this as the rope and the halter are moving hard.
As soon as your horse takes even one little step – at any phase – stop immediately and relax your body. This is how he will know that he did the right thing. When he moves, even at phase 2 or 3, stop there and then start over again at phase 1 until he is all the way out to the end of the lead rope._


The second things is that your horse is bored to death! I think that you have to change a lot the exercices. Give him a goal, you need to get him interested...

I hope you understand what i want to say. I'm French and my english is very bad, sorry about that


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

i dont live there anymore any way.... so no need to worry about my aggressiveness


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

Kuro said:


> Hey!
> I just wanna say something about the lunge. I think you are very agressive (i'm sure that's not your goal). And this is the reason why your horse move the head and wanna leave!
> The video you put before is a very good exemple, look the men is very calm, and the horse is reactiv!
> You must understand that energy is not the same than agressivity... and you have a lot of energy and agressivity.
> ...


and as ive deleted the videos, when i was making him move his feet he would charge me, and i would rather him have his head away from me then running at me


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