# Not sure what to do



## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Oh! Forgot to add...Aires LOVES having a mineral block, but I'm not going to buy a mineral block to have someone else's horses licking on it, too. Aires goes through one 50# block fast enough on his own, I don't need him helped in that department. If the other horses' owners went in on buying a few with me, then ok, but that's not likely to happen.
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## ligoleth (Sep 9, 2011)

Is there any way you can switch horse mates with other pasture boarders? Or are they the only ones?


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## Jumper Princess (Apr 28, 2014)

Is there perhaps a time when the mares are not out and Aires can go out there alone for a little while? Or the same situation with the geldings? I'm not really familiar with the term mare motel, but that with the turnout might end up being the best option. At the same time, 4x a week for turnout is a little rough. Is there maybe an arena where he can go out in?
You are right about the apply, he would probably run Aires off from his feed if he is dominant. I know what it's like to have a horse on the bottom of the totem pole. It's not fun. They lose weight, constantly have boo-boos, and they just can't find peace. I've even heard of some getting sleep deprived. Hope you find a situation that works!


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I'm not sure what your question is.


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## ligoleth (Sep 9, 2011)

I don't think it is as much as a question, as much as it is a request for advice in how to solve the situation. 

Or, potential brain storming in ways to help Aires get what he needs.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Sorry, it's late and I'm typing this in between checking in guests and folding laundry at work. :lol:

Deschutes is correct. Just seeking advice and brainstorming on how to get Aires what he needs and how to approach my BO about it.

The mares that are in turnout are all on 24/7 turnout, like Aires, the appy and the bay. The appy apparently has a barn stall, but the BO leaves him in turnout unless the weather turns nasty. The appy is nasty in his stall, too, and charges the fence when people walk by with their horses on the way to the wash rack. 

I'm not thrilled with the idea of moving Aires back into a stall. He's much happier with more space. 

I honestly don't know if the BO would have anywhere to turn him out by himself. There are two small turnouts that do not have horses permanently in them, but boarders and the BO use them to turn out their horses during the day. The trainer usually has her horses in the round pens and spare turnout when she is at the barn (because apparently they are worth too much to be turned out with the lesser horses). No one really wants their horses turned out with Aires because he's so big and they're afraid he will hurt their horses (actually heard a boarder say that).
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## ligoleth (Sep 9, 2011)

I'd probably go for it and ask. I don't think Aires would go and attack other horses, but I don't know him so I'm only gandering a guess based off the fact that he's being low man on the totem pole in his current trio. 

The fact that he won't be getting the care he needs and the fact that he is getting beat up on should be reason enough for the BO to consider moving him.


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## LemonZeus (Oct 6, 2013)

Wow, you're really between a rock and a hard place here. 
Maybe talk to the BO and see if she can come up with anything. Maybe take Aires to a smaller turnout (when one's available) to feed him and let him lick on a mineral block, then put him back out. I'm 100% sure they'd run him off his food- I have issues with my two doing it. But that leaves you with pasture mates that don't get along. This is a toughie.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

He is low man on the totem pole, but he does like to play. I think people have seen him trying to play with his turnout mates and have possibly interpreted it as him being mean (most of the people at the barn at either the "my precious pony" types or the "just show up and ride" types. They don't really take the time to observe and learn horse behavior). Also, I think they have the (somewhat legitimate) fear that even in play, Aires is such a big boy that even unintentional damage could/would be more severe than from a normal-sized horse.

I'm going to talk to my BO about it when I'm out there for the farrier on Wednesday. Then I'll have the time to really sit down with her and discuss it. She feels bad that Aires gets beat up, but I think she feels like there's nothing she can do about it.
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## ligoleth (Sep 9, 2011)

The good thing is, she actually cares. Which, from reading a lot of threads on bad barns, that seems like a real gem. 

Hopefully some swapping or fenaggling will solve the issue. Best of luck.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

I love my BO. She really doesn't make much money running the boarding stable, but she does it because she loves it. When everyone else in the area is jacking their rates every year or two, she hasn't increased her board rates in 15 years, even though the price of hay has gone up dramatically. She nearly cried when I handed her my board for this month and told her it was $185 instead of $150.
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## Chevaux (Jun 27, 2012)

Is it possible to subdivide the turnout where he is now? Is it possible to build a turnout just for your boy? I'm thinking if you were prepared to make a partial financial contribution to achieve this via portable corral panels, electric fence, board fence, etc., the BO might go for it. I realize it may be money you won't get back especially if you go with a permanent fence but you may find it worth the effort by reducing the old stress levels.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Unfortunately, the property has as many turnouts as it can handle on it. There are seven all together and all but two of them have permanent residents. The one Aires is in is the second largest (the largest has five mares in it, including one that is about to give birth any day and is mostly feral). It has already been subdivided twice, making three turnouts out of the one big one (one of the smaller subdivisions holds a permanent resident that cannot be with other horses due to severe aggression). The turnout he's in now is about 1/4 acre in area (it used to be almost half an acre before they subdivided it).

The turnout Aires is in is the only one that is enclosed with only electric fencing (a single strand of tape at about 4ft high). About once a week, Aires will test the fence to see if it's on (it is always on) and then proceed to walk straight through it. He never goes far (usually just over to visit some of the mares) and he's easy to catch. The funny thing is that neither the appy nor the bay have ever tried to follow him, even though he pulls down pretty much one whole side of the turnout when he walks through it.

I would be happy to help build another turnout so Aires could have some peace, there just isn't anywhere to put one, other than the BO's backyard (the barns, arena, round pens, stalls and turnout are on 2.5 acres, while the BO's house sits on the adjoining 2.5 acres and is fenced off completely with one walk-through gate and one drive-through gate).
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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

There are just too many horses on that amount of land. That's the real problem. That's probably not going to change so, you really only have 2 choices. Try to find a solution to his being turned out with the bully or move. Since you love it there, then I'd ask if Aires could have a small turnout to himself, rather than going back to the mare motel. A stall in the motel would be nice because he'd have some shelter when monsoon gets there or if it was just TOO hot during the heat of summer but I understand a big boy like him feeling cramped in there too. 

I'd ask for solo turnout if he was mine. Or I'd ask that the App be removed from the one they're in, but then the bay could turn into the toughie. I have a meek and mild little grey mare that in a large group is right around the bottom 3 or 4 horses. When her herd got reduced and the alpha mare moved, SHE turned into a bully until she became top mare in the group. And this was the mare who ALWAYS had fur missing from bites. So, sometimes the easiest way to restore equilibrium is to remove the one being picked on. Horses in 3s never seems to work out right, unless they've pretty much been raised together from birth.


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## Chevaux (Jun 27, 2012)

I didn't realize the size of the property was so limited in size. I agree with what Dreamcatcher has said - too many horses, too little space and, unfortunately, too few options.

I hope you'll be able to work something out.


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## LadyChevalier (Apr 19, 2013)

Is your barn owner completely adament on keeping the boys from the girls? Has your boy ever been out with mares before? 

I keep a herd of 9 at home. I do have my herd separated into two groups. One pasture has my 3 big geldings and my yearling colt (soon to be gelded this week). And the other has 3 mares and 2 older geldings (my 30 yr old pony and my hubbys twh). My twh used to be chased off alot by my bigger geldings in the back so I put him in with the mares and so far no issues. In the past years I've always run geldings and mares together no problem. Unfortunately your options are pretty limited. You are either stuck with putting your boy out with the meanies, or trying to juggle limited free space for your boy to be isolated or kept in a stall that hes uncomfortable with (which could just be a hassle for you and your BO), or your BO relents and experiements with putting Aries in with some tough no nonesense mares and see how he acts. 

All horses play. And at any time one horse could accidentally play a little too rough. But my Friesian draft cross plays with my colt who is built like an arab (QH/Arabx). And Dante is fairly careful with him but they still play. Aries, if put in with a no nonesense alpha mare, she will put him in his place if he goes too far in his playing. Just a suggestion for you and your bo to consider even if its not what she wants to do. Or you might have to consider moving if nothing can be resolved and you are that unhappy with his turnout.

Also bring a crop with you when you go get your horse and give that appy a good twack if he goes after your boy when you go out to get aries.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

DA, I agree that she has too many horses for the property size. 

She is very adamant about not mixing genders. Aires has been turned out with the little (13.3hh) Arab mare my friend had when he was a 2yo and he was good, but he was considerably smaller (15hh) and had no idea what mares were back then. Show him a mare now and he turns into a prancy, neck arched, "How you doin'?" schmuck. :lol:

I'm not overly concerned about the shelter aspect. Even when he has a shelter, he absolutely doesn't use it. He will stand out in the pouring rain, swirling snow, or beating sleet and look miserable, but he won't use a shelter. *facepalm*

I'm going to talk to my BO on Wednesday and see what we can figure out. 

Oh, and LadyChevalier, I have started carrying my carrot stick out to the turnout when I go to get Aires. I also have a popper at the end of my lead rope that I use if I forget to grab my carrot stick. The bay is good about backing off and maintaining a respectful distance. The appy, not so much.
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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Hit that appy REALLY hard once and he won't be a problem. Had the same issue with an appy named pepper. Ornery gelding would lunge over his stall at people and horses and he WOULD take a chunk out of you. I hit him REALLY hard with my lead rope across the face when he lunged at me (narrow aisle so unless i crawled under my horse i was staying in biting range). I no longer had a pepper issue, id look at him and raise the rope and he would pin his ears and back up. He would snap at me but stayed out of walking distance. seams mean but 1,000 lb animal is going to win in a fight between you an him. put him in his place and he wont be an issue. 

But talk to the bo. maybe some solitary for the appy might be good for him.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Kiger, I've chased that appy off more times than I can count. If I were to make actual contact with him, I'm pretty sure some lady at the barn who saw it would freak out. I've disciplined Aires for biting and such before with a good solid whack and been given the stink eye for the rest of the day. My BO is the only one who isn't opposed to a good smack every once in a while, but I think even she would take exception to me hitting another boarder's horse, regardless of how nasty that horse is.


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## ligoleth (Sep 9, 2011)

Even if you said it was for personal safety? If they tried saying something about it, and that horse had say, bit you, kicked you, or did any damage, I'm pretty sure you could sue, right?


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Ask them "what would you do if you had a 1000lb angry animal coming at you? let him plow you over? You are welcome to pay my medical bill next time then". Im not for hitting a horse for no good reason. But i also know horses kick the crap out of each other when they are ****ed and they live. You CANNOT hurt that horse with just a whip in your hands. it may hurt but you cannot kill him.

People used to say i was being mean and to hard on my horse, because i got on her for every little thing. then they turn around and say my horse has amazing manners and they wished their horse was that well behaved. 

Talk to BO say either that gelding needs to go somewhere or your horse needs to be turned out somewhere else. They could also make a smaller section of the turn out or ****y pants. That way no one has to deal with him and you can get your gelding. it may be a smaller turn out but its more room than a stall.


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## Chevaux (Jun 27, 2012)

So I'm thinking that if you were able to have someone film what happens when you go out into the turnout and the appy has a go at you, you could present this to the BO as testament to the problems you're having - perhaps if she sees the video/film it will drive home the point that action is required????


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Agreed! bottom line is someone is going to get hurt, and its ether a hospital bill or a vet bill from that appy attacking you or your gelding. I have seen a mini stallion take a chunk out of the face of a mustang gelding (15hh). It needed stitches and the gelding never fought back. Size dose not matter in a horse fight if the bigger one is submissive. If your horse dose not retaliate that appy can kick him and break a leg, shatter a shoulder bite and trip him, the list is endless. I won't even go into what he can do to you.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

BO has seen it happen and has had it happen to her, though not as bad as I have (probably because she handles the appy more).

My best friend and I were talking about it yesterday and we are pretty sure that Aires' recent behavior problems can be traced back to when the appy went to full-time turnout with him a few months ago.

I didn't get a chance to talk to the BO yesterday as she was in Phoenix while I was at the barn and I was hurt while the farrier was trying to trim Aires, so I went home long before she got back.
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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

soooo update?


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Haven't gotten a chance to talk to the BO. Saw her for a brief few minutes when I went to the barn on Tuesday to get Aires trimmed, but she was dealing with a colicking pony, so I couldn't pin her down. Now she's getting ready for the show on Saturday and is swamped. I'm going out to the barn every day this week, so hopefully I'll be able to talk to her sometime. I really don't want to do it when there's other people around, but there always seems to be other people around. lol


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## Saskia (Aug 26, 2009)

If the appy has a barn stall could you see if he could be put there during the day while you handle Aires, and then turned out at night?

Three horses on 1/4 of an acre is very tight.


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## Sunnylucy (Jul 3, 2012)

How about putting up some panels/fencing of some sort to separate a small area for your horse? Offer to do the work yourself if need be (get a friend or two to help). You can sometimes find some used fencing, etc. that wouldn't be expensive. Then he wouldn't get hurt, you wouldn't get hurt, your horse could have grain at night.


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## luvmydrafts (Dec 26, 2013)

I would tell her everything you told this forum in your 1st post...but the problem is the space...you said these 3 horses on 1/4 acre?? my goodness that is not nearly enough, no wonder they fight. horses will fight much much more when there is not enough space, that is not even close to enough. I think you are already knowing deep down you got to move...It is hard when the BO is such a nice person, I know, i have been there...super nice people can be hard to find, but by the time you are posting here for advice on a situation like this it is usually already untenable...I would start looking for another place unless she can open up another 3 acres for these 3 horses...also wow, that appy is a lawsuit waiting to happen...id carry a crop with me if i went out there, if not a rake or something...in the meantime arranging to move my boy to another barn...if the BO is that nice then she will understand.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

luvmydrafts, moving barns isn't an option, especially not right now. Everywhere else in my area is much more expensive and I'm the sole source of income in our house right now. I don't make much more than minimum wage, so even working full-time, I'm barely making board as it is. Add to that the fact that board may be going up here soon (hay prices jumped $4-5 per bale recently :shock: ).


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## caseymyhorserocks (Apr 5, 2010)

I am jealous of your hay prices! How much do they weigh a bale? Sorry it's off topic! Here it is $22 for 100# bale.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Casey, 100-120# bales of alfalfa are $20-22 right now. I reread my post and I see that you probably thought our hay prices are $4-5. Don't I wish.
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## LemonZeus (Oct 6, 2013)

Holy moly you guys! I have a solution- move over to Indiana! I just paid $3 for ~100 lb square bales. People were crying over $7 hay a year or two ago. Wow :shock:


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Yeah, hay prices here in AZ are ridiculous. I remember four years ago, I could feed my old gelding on $20 per week. Granted, he's a lot smaller than Aires and went through a bale of alfalfa and a bale of grass per week (got alfalfa for meals and grass in a hay net to keep him occupied), but still! It was $8-10 a bale and MUCH better quality than the junk we now pay twice as much for. 

Anyway, Aires isn't getting moved any time soon and neither are Bob and Oz (the appy is Bob and the bay is Oz). I had to run Bob off yesterday when I went to catch Aires. He ran Aires away from me when I first entered the turnout and pinned him in the corner by the water, then Bob came to investigate me. As soon as he got within twenty feet of me, I pointed and told him to get (he usually listens to that). He kept coming, so I started swinging the lead rope in a circle at my side. When he got about ten feet away, he turned his butt to me, so I took a step toward him and snaked the lead rope out toward him. Caught him right on the point of his butt and scared the crap out of him. He took off running to the other end of the turnout. Unfortunately, he ran right into Aires and then Aires didn't want to come to me. So, I walked about ten feet further into the turnout and turned my back. FINALLY, after about two minutes, Aires came to me. I haltered him with no problems (Bob kept his distance) and led him out, but as I was leading him out, he apparently thought Bob was coming after him because he spooked and bolted. This time I dropped his lead rope and let him go. He's easy to catch and there aren't many places he can go on the property anyway (and someone would have caught him for me). 

Then, when my best friend put him back in the turnout (she rode him bareback to the turnout), he didn't want to go in. At all. When she finally did get him in, Bob went after him hard. Chased him all around the turnout, then bucked and kicked out at him. What's sad is that Bob is a little thing compared to Aires. He's all of maybe 14.2-14.3hh and slender. All it would take would be one defensive kick from Aires and Bob would leave him alone for good.


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

Your poor boy. Bummer moving isn't an option, as I've left a few yards due to intractable management situations where the barn owner isn't going to change what they do, and my horse remains in a situation where she's not happy. I've had good yards as well, where the owner or manager will make sure everyone has appropriate turnout buddies or no turnout buddies, as the case may require. If someone is getting beat up or herdmates are chasing horses away from their owners, horses are rearranged. In one instance, my horse was the perp, chasing a herdmate away from her owners, and the owners bitched to the YO and my horse was moved. Is your barn owner/manager really not seeing a problem? Eeeep.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

The BO sees it, but she doesn't see it as as big of an issue. Plus, the only alternative is to move Oz and Bob back into their stalls, which would leave Aires alone, but they would still get turned out with him.

Even the BO's daughters (ages 8 and 6) see how mean Bob is to Aires (Oz really isn't an issue).

I don't know if Aires is going through another growth spurt or if he's still being run off his food, but he is decidedly ribbier than I would like.
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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

I really torn about what to do, now. Aires had mild gas colic yesterday morning and I'm pretty sure it was caused by the stress of dealing with Oz. Luckily a little bit of banamine had him right as rain again, but it was awful getting that call.

However, when I went out there to check on him (this was after the girl watching the barn while the BO is on vacation had given him banamine, then asked me to go out and check on him), he has fairly fresh bite marks on his hind legs and the one bad one he had on the inside of his leg has scarred a bit.


(There are a couple more on his other leg, but these were the easiest to photograph with my crappy little cell phone)

The only stall that I know has opened up is in the barn with an attached run that a guy just moved his 17hh TWH out of, but I don't think he'll use the indoor stall and it's $50+ more per month, which if my boyfriend had a job would be no big deal. I'll have to talk to him and see if he thinks we can swing it.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

If the BO will let you , and your BF does not care, then use a credit card buy some corral panels and make him a corral. It sounds like you have the option i just suggested, putting him in a box stall, but then he has turn out with the other horses and will still get beat up, or moving.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

stevenson said:


> If the BO will let you , and your BF does not care, then use a credit card buy some corral panels and make him a corral. It sounds like you have the option i just suggested, putting him in a box stall, but then he has turn out with the other horses and will still get beat up, or moving.


I _think_ I can get the BO to not turn him out with Bob and Oz, he just won't get as much turnout time. Which should be okay, since I'm going to start working him more, anyway. 

And no credit cards in our house (except the secured one that is for horse emergencies only). We have gotten into too much trouble with credit cards in the past.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

sounds like you just solved your problem.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

stevenson said:


> sounds like you just solved your problem.


I'm just hoping that the stall I want for Aires is one of the $225 stalls, NOT the $275 stalls. I can swing the cheaper stall for now, but until the boyfriend gets a job, the more expensive stall might not be doable (since I pay all utilities, plus rent, insurance on my car, and help buy the food [he has food stamps]). I hate being an adult sometimes. :-|


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Problem has been solved. I texted the BO this morning and asked her about a stall for Aires. She said that his old stall is available, but the stall board price has gone up $15/month. Not a huge deal. She also offered to move Bob back into his barn stall and not turn him out with Aires anymore. So that would leave Aires and Oz in turnout together, which is fine with me.

When she gets back, I'm going to talk to her about starting Aires on grain and some supplements (maybe a course of GastroGuard or GastroTec if moving Bob doesn't improve his attitude). I am willing to let her feed Oz some of my grain to keep him occupied and keep him from running Aires off his grain, if that's what it takes. I wasn't willing to do that with Bob out there because 1) I don't like Bob (I do like Oz, though) and 2) Bob would have hogged all the grain regardless.


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