# Let's talk about racism.



## northwesten (Apr 28, 2012)

Meh I don't really care myself as lone she is good looking.. hot and a horse rider and out going to social stuff and she has a great personality and a worker. 

Anything else I don't care really.


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## uflrh9y (Jun 29, 2012)

Well I think Kevin is super cute and it's nice seeing people on Youtube saying things worth listening, too. I completely agree! (of course I am mixed race so of course I think it's fabulous, lol. AfroCuban Dad and a White Jewish Mom...I'm a mutt.) Shalom Amigos!


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## Houston (Apr 15, 2012)

I've never heard of Kevin until today. Seems great enough to follow!

Racism is an unfortunate thing, for lack of better words. I don't think it will ever die out but I think a lot of people need to change their views.

My immediate Black family isn't _racist, _however whenever I express interest in someone outside my race they question it. Fortunately they seem to be getting the picture that I am who I am; colorblind when it comes to love!


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

That is funny! I think racism would all but disappear tomorrow if the concept of the individual were to replace the need to race "hyphenate".


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## uflrh9y (Jun 29, 2012)

Missy May said:


> That is funny! I think racism would all but disappear tomorrow if the concept of the individual were to replace the need to race "hyphenate".


Oh my, I completely disagree. I assume by race hyphenate you mean like calling myself Cuban-American or African-American or Irish-American? It is not being proud of one's roots/culture/ancestors that cause racism. Racism is a problem of tolerance and acceptance. My calling myself Cuban-American is not what perpetuates racism. 

Just out of curiosity, do you really think if African-Americans stop using that term right this minute it would change the feelings of people who discriminate and hate them for the color of their skin? I sure don't. You are putting a lot of responsibility for racism on the wrong people, IMO.


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

Well, most African-Americans I know call themselves black. And tolerance is different from acceptance. I may tolerate something but never accept it. Some people are colorblind, while others see only color.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I think the way he makes fun of his father and posts it on YT is disgusting.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

uflrh9y said:


> Oh my, I completely disagree. I assume by race hyphenate you mean like calling myself Cuban-American or African-American or Irish-American? It is not being proud of one's roots/culture/ancestors that cause racism. Racism is a problem of tolerance and acceptance. My calling myself Cuban-American is not what perpetuates racism.
> 
> Just out of curiosity, do you really think if African-Americans stop using that term right this minute it would change the feelings of people who discriminate and hate them for the color of their skin? I sure don't. You are putting a lot of responsibility for racism on the wrong people, IMO.


Well, maybe you misunderstand who it is that I put the responsibility "on". I am an American, what my ancestors were is something I only worry about when, as an individual, I am considering my own personal geneology. I resent being asked anything about my race, ethnicity, etc., on an application of any sort. I never ask anyone what their "race or ethnicity" is - who cares? The race-hyphenation thing was not thought up and used by millions of citizens on an independant basis. Not "joining in" on the use of it does not preclude anyone from celebrating their heritage. I am "mixed", so what? I don't like every single "member" of any race, including those I am a "member of"....I take people as individuals.

And, no I don't think that if the use of race hyphenation ceased right this minute that the benefit would be realized in the next hour. In ten years, yes - absolutely - I do! The adage "divide and conquer" has survived the test of thousands of years b/c it is true. 

Just out of curiosity, do you really think that if "fill in the blank race-Americans" that are prejudice against other "fill in the blank race- Americans" continue the use of race-hyphenation, then it will change _their _feelings? Your example was African-American. As the video in question demonstrates, no one race has a monopoly on racism.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

tinyliny said:


> I think the way he makes fun of his father and posts it on YT is disgusting.


Now tiny, ...he is a kid! All kids do that in one way or another...they might not put it on yt, but they all do that.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

tinyliny said:


> I think the way he makes fun of his father and posts it on YT is disgusting.


I wouldn't call it disgusting, but I don't find it funny personally.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

uflrh9y said:


> Just out of curiosity, do you really think if African-Americans stop using that term right this minute it would change the feelings of people who discriminate and hate them for the color of their skin?


I think it's quite a lame example. Personally I don't like term "African-American" at all. They are American. Or they are not. I think this term especially wrong if you were born here: what "African" has to do with it at all then? Because using it clearly mean calling the race. 

In fact it always irks me that lots of companies ask to fill that race/ethnicity form. That is the first step to separate people based on their color/appearance. And we talk about being "political correct"!


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

tinyliny said:


> I think the way he makes fun of his father and posts it on YT is disgusting.


Maybe not disgusting, but definitely disrespectful.


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## uflrh9y (Jun 29, 2012)

kitten_Val said:


> I think it's quite a lame example. Personally I don't like term "African-American" at all. They are American. Or they are not. I think this term especially wrong if you were born here: what "African" has to do with it at all then? Because using it clearly mean calling the race.
> 
> In fact it always irks me that lots of companies ask to fill that race/ethnicity form. That is the first step to separate people based on their color/appearance. And we talk about being "political correct"!


I'm not African-American so I have no say what someone calls themselves. Terms and labels are always changing and it's very individual.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Tiny - If you watch his other videos his dad is totally supportive and finds it really funny too.:'D Most of the time he is in on it and helps Kevin with his youtube videos.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

that's good to hear! I wondered how he got that stuff past his dad.


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## Lakotababii (Nov 28, 2010)

kitten_Val said:


> I think it's quite a lame example. Personally I don't like term "African-American" at all. They are American. Or they are not. I think this term especially wrong if you were born here: what "African" has to do with it at all then? Because using it clearly mean calling the race.
> 
> In fact it always irks me that lots of companies ask to fill that race/ethnicity form. That is the first step to separate people based on their color/appearance. And we talk about being "political correct"!



I find it personally offensive that they ask for this information as well. But companies nowadays have to prove they are not racist by having a certain percentage of minorities. They have to prove they are not withholding employment based on race, gender, etc.

I understand it, to a point. I know the cause is right, and that there hearts are in the right place trying to protect minorities. However, I think it alienates the minorities even more. If a company needs to hire a new employee, and they have say 2 applicants, one is black and one is white. They are both equally qualified, but since the company knows it will look better for them to have more minority status, they hire the black man without digging deeper. Is that racism, or is that promoting a minority? Can one promote a minority without being racist towards a majority? 

To me, these sort of things create a double standard. You cannot be equal by promoting a minority necessarily, because you inadvertently put down the other race, the majority.

Of course in a perfect world, the person would be hired based on only their qualifications and what they can do for the company. No gender, sexual orientation, or race. It is hard to do, and its a delicate balance, but I am not in favor of the current system of having to fill out race on college applications, scholarship applications, jobs, etc. I think it irrelevant to ask such questions.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

I am old enough to remember the whites only signs and riots of the 60's.
Living in the Deep South at that time is etched in my memory.
My father was in the military and I could not understand the issues because we lived next to people of all races.
The small town I live outside of until the early 1970's had a sign that said You are Now entering **** Town Texas as you turned into the area where ALL the blacks lived. You had to turn down this road to go to our house and still do.
It is still sometimes referred to as that.
Racism exist and it is good that MOST people have little to no problems with it.
That does not mean that it is still not a powerful and harmful force in this country.
I have been told that ------ steal lie and cheat. That ----- are lazy and stupid, recently.
Just because we wish it to go away doesn't mean that it has.
Missy May I commend you for looking beyond race and seeing the individual that exist. Everyone does not think like you and that is the problem. Shalom


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Lakotababi the playing field is not equal yet.
Economically and educationally minorities are lagging the whites in this country.
Hopefully there will be a day when race creed religion and sexual orientation do not matter.
However presently they still do.
Being jewish has been both an advantage and disadvantage in my life.
I have gotten jobs and promoted because of being jewish. This was in Israel and the US. 
I have also been harrassed and denied promotions for the same reasons.
Once in a review for a promotion in the USAF I was questioned about my loyalty to the US versus Israel.
I have also been criticized for not attending Christmas celebrations in both the military and the private sector. My being a team player was questioned.
It is good that we discuss race and that we as a soceity confront racism.
That is the way to end it and repair the wounds it has inflicted in this country. Shalom


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## Lakotababii (Nov 28, 2010)

dbarabians, I am not saying that racism doesn't exist anymore, as that would be a ludicrous statement. Unfortunately, racism will most likely always exist.

My point is that it is no better to promote one race, just for being that one race, than it is to hold prejudice against the same people. It is not necessarily fixing the problem, but only exacerbating it. 

Everyone comes across issues with prejudice/hate/discrimination. They need to be dealt with, yes. But putting a blanket assumption on all peoples for someone else's hate is not the right way to go about it. 

I feel the same way about hate crimes. I understand why it is a law. There were many horrendous and disgusting things done to many different races throughout America's (and the worlds) history. It is undeniably wrong to harm someone for being different than yourself. However, the laws against hate crime have repercussions that were unintentional. You can get charged with a hate crime for doing something against a minority, even if you didn't do it just because of their status. So lets say a black person is killed and a white person is killed. The perp in both cases is white. The case against the person who killed the white person would be murder. However, the case against the person who killed the black person would be murder AND a hate crime, most likely. 

So what does that say about us as a nation? Do we believe it worse to kill a minority member than a majority member? Why can't people just be people? And I know I am going to get the response of "because we are still not equal in this country," once again, I understand that, but is tipping the scale the other way really fixing the problem of making it harder for those who aren't actually racist? 

So basically equality is equality is equality. I'm all for it. But promoting one race, even if it is unintended, is by definition not equality. 

Does anyone else see where I am coming from? Yes these laws/policies/beliefs make sense, but they have many "side effects" sort of speak.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

You know,the sad thing about hiring quotas is that they damage the psyche of both sides of the equation.

For the member of the minority hired, it does help to equalize past wrongs in the workplace, but it has had an unintended consequence. I work with a black supervisor who I feel is a very gifted leader. But if you ask him, he will quickly tell you he ONLY got his promotion to fill a quota "need". I find this very disturbing as it makes me feel that, while it may have a small element of truth, he has discounted his talent altogether. He does not recognize his true value to this workplace. He seems to have a form of "quota guilt" that affects how he sees himself. This can only be very damaging to a person's self esteem, if they really believe they have little other value to a workplace than to prove diversity.

And, hiring quotas, in many ways, does more damage to a feeling of equality than help, in the long run. 

While I agree with the need for quotas, in many ways, there has got to be a time when the need for them diminishes. That people are allowed to rise to whatever levels their personal talents and dedication brings them.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

The problem is db, racism is not something that is limited to "white people". It is racism and oppression to the extremes to only recognize its existance in one race, though.

I am often mistaken for being part of a certian race to which I have zero "connection". I find it offensive when people ask me if I am part that race..._only_ b/c it is poor manners, imo - no other reason. I don't assume that if someone doesn't care for me it must be b/c they have mistook me for a member of that race and they are a racist. However, growing up one of my very close friends was black, as were acquaintances - in a nearly _all_ white area. I noticed that if I were not around them and did not care for a black person b/c I did not like _them_ as an_ individual_ not their _color,_ bam!!! Some people w _no_ black friends or acquantances immediately implied that the only reason I didn't care for them was b/c of their race. HELLO? That was way back when, and not much has changed. It does _nothing_ to further the "anti-prejudice" cause_..._b/c it removes the individual.

For every person that gets a job, accepted, etc., on the basis they are a given color, ethnicity, etc., - someone didn't b/c they weren't "that color". It isn't "healing wounds" - it is enforced descrimination, there are no other words for it. It is divisive and it is oppressive. Either oppression is good or it is not.

I don't get the **** sign thing - you failed to make it clear if it were _meant_ as a racial slur. There are towns, counties, businesses, etc., that have that name, my first thought is not a "racial slur" when I hear it...in fact, it doesn't even cross my mind.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

Allison Finch said:


> You know,the sad thing about hiring quotas is that they damage the psyche of both sides of the equation.
> 
> For the member of the minority hired, it does help to equalize past wrongs in the workplace, but it has had an unintended consequence. I work with a black supervisor who I feel is a very gifted leader. But if you ask him, he will quickly tell you he ONLY got his promotion to fill a quota "need". I find this very disturbing as it makes me feel that, while it may have a small element of truth, he has discounted his talent altogether. He does not recognize his true value to this workplace. He seems to have a form of "quota guilt" that affects how he sees himself. This can only be very damaging to a person's self esteem, if they really believe they have little other value to a workplace than to prove diversity.
> 
> ...


 
:shock:, I agree w Alison? It just gets stranger and stranger.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Missy May that sign was meant to keep people in their place.
The word **** is a derogatory slur about African Americans used here in the south. To have that sign placed there and to still hear that section of town called that is pretty telling. The small town here in texas are pretty well segregated to this day.
I did not understand it until I was a teenager.
Racism is both institutional and personal, both are harmful to the morale of everyone.
Unfortantely quotas are still necessary to ensure equal hiring and promotions. Shalom


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

dbarabians said:


> Missy May that sign was meant to keep people in their place.
> The word **** is a derogatory slur about African Americans used here in the south. To have that sign placed there and to still hear that section of town called that is pretty telling. The small town here in texas are pretty well segregated to this day.
> I did not understand it until I was a teenager.
> Racism is both institutional and personal, both are harmful to the morale of everyone.
> Unfortantely quotas are still necessary to ensure equal hiring and promotions. Shalom


I don't agree that quotas are necessary - I firmly believe in free markets. No one in a _free _market cares what color you are if you have the qualifications they need. No one that is non subsidized is going to not hire talent because of a color issue. It puts individualism back in the game, true "ownership" of your accomplishments.

If you look real hard, db..you will find low income white people living side by side - do you call it segregatioin?


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## uflrh9y (Jun 29, 2012)

The thing is, do you know who was helped the most by quotas and Affirmative Action? 

Women.

I agree that it would be wonderful to get to a place where AA and quotas are not necessary. I think we are moving in the right direction, but we are not there yet. And my point is that I would love to live in a world that when someone says American, they think of all kinds of people equally. But that is not the case. And to me hyphenating one's culture with American is not in any way shape or form the cause or what perpetuates racism. If anything it is a reaction to not being thought of as American in the past. 

The thing that makes it difficult is younger generation grow up, they don't have experiences and often not taught about things like Jim Crow and Segregation and Internment Camps, etc. And it can seem like everything is fine and why do we have to keep talking about racism and sexism and have quotas and hyphenate names and such. But all this has come from decades of intolerance and hate. It takes more then a generation to wipe the effects of institutionalized discrimination away. 

Also, more people have gotten jobs and have been admitted to colleges based on things like Legacy Preference and nepotism then quotas and AA. Can we get to a point where it is not necessary? Absolutely. But we are not there yet and they are not the problem nor the answer to 100's of years of racism in this country.


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## uflrh9y (Jun 29, 2012)

Missy May said:


> I don't agree that quotas are necessary - I firmly believe in free markets. No one in a _free _market cares what color you are if you have the qualifications they need. No one that is non subsidized is going to not hire talent because of a color issue. It puts individualism back in the game, true "ownership" of your accomplishments.
> 
> If you look real hard, db..you will find low income white people living side by side - do you call it segregatioin?


But we don't live in a free market system. We live in a world where 100's of years of discrimination has given advantage to one group. To just say "Ok, let's forget about that" is not the answer. It is something that has to be worked towards.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Missy May until recently the projects in these smaller Texas towns were indeed segregated and for the most part still are. Im talking about the last 5 years or so that the State agency got sued and was forced to change policies.
The rest of the towns are also segregated Blacks living in one specific area whites the rest. I see it everday.
Being white in this country has its advantages. In terms of education politics, and opprotunity there is a large disparity between the races.
Sad but true. Shalom


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

uflrh9y said:


> But we don't live in a free market system. We live in a world where 100's of years of discrimination has given advantage to one group. To just say "Ok, let's forget about that" is not the answer. It is something that has to be worked towards.


No, unfortunately we don't live in a free market system b/c the government imposes regulations to inhibit it. That does not mean a free market does not work, and what I said is not true. In fact, the NFL is an example of the "free market" at work. Do you see any women on those teams? I personally don't wonder why not, do you? Do you see only one color on those teams? Ditto. They want to ---gasp!!!----"win". Fortunately for those teams pocketbooks, someone voluntarily watches football (not I). Here is another example...turn on your radio - do your hear anyone identifying the "color" of the artist Does anyone care?? Are your music choices affected by "quotas"?

I am female. 100 years ago women's choices were limited and they could not vote. That does not mean MY choiced are limited in the present. Its a space time continuum thing. 

By ALL means, please DO get rid of ANY "quotas" for women, it is 2012.



dbarabians said:


> Missy May until recently the projects in these smaller Texas towns were indeed segregated and for the most part still are. Im talking about the last 5 years or so that the State agency got sued and was forced to change policies.
> The rest of the towns are also segregated Blacks living in one specific area whites the rest. I see it everday.
> Being white in this country has its advantages. In terms of education politics, and opprotunity there is a large disparity between the races.
> Sad but true. Shalom


Your example is noted. I have spent a lot of time in the south, and I have _never_ witnessed this - so it isn't some current wide spread practice. And, they can move, don't tell me there is some "hidden law" that prevents their freedom of movement. I live in area where being non-hispanic (an ethnicity, not a race), puts you at an _extreme_ disadvantage w respect to employment, and the lions share of jobs are government. If its a private business...who cares, the free markets almost always works. Non hispanic whites, blacks, and asians are the minority. This openly practiced discrimination will never be addressed - at least not for the non-hispanic white population b/c.....why??? They are the race/ethnicity that is not afforded such luxuries as "equal opportunity". It is either equal, or it is not.


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## Bearkiller (Aug 10, 2011)

dbarabians said:


> Hopefully there will be a day when race creed religion and *sexual orientation* do not matter.


 
Really???? Since when is sexual orientation a race? Or something that is out of someones control? You've proven to be intellectually dishonest in the past and *I suppose I know your answer* but last time I checked, I get to decide whether or not I have a relationship with a female or not. Black people are black and there is nothing short of some creepy surgery (Michael Jackson)that is going to change that. Last time I checked, employers can still decide whether or not to hire someone based on the decisions an individual has made or is making. On the flip side, I don't suppose I would know if someone was gay or not unless they were having an inappropriate conversation at work. Which in itself could be cause for termination.........


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Missy May people were denied housing or were delayed in getting an apartment in the case that I posted about.
The State Agency was cited and paid damages due to its racial segregation practices. So there must have been some "unwritten" law.
According to the Anti Defamation League more hate crimes occur in other areas of the country besides the south.
I need to state that fact to dispute some regional bias that may come up.
the bigotry down here is very open and bigots have no qualms telling you their true feelings. I will take that over the smile in your face while I stab you in the back type any day. Shalom


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## uflrh9y (Jun 29, 2012)

Bearkiller said:


> Really???? Since when is sexual orientation a race? Or something that is out of someones control? You've proven to be intellectually dishonest in the past and *I suppose I know your answer* but last time I checked, I get to decide whether or not I have a relationship with a female or not. Black people are black and there is nothing short of some creepy surgery (Michael Jackson)that is going to change that. Last time I checked, employers can still decide whether or not to hire someone based on the decisions an individual has made or is making. On the flip side, I don't suppose I would know if someone was gay or not unless they were having an inappropriate conversation at work. Which in itself could be cause for termination.........


I don't believe sexual orientation is a choice. I didn't choose to be straight. So I'm not sure what is intellectually dishonest about that. And why would it have to be an inappropriate conversation at work that would show you someone was gay. How about someone just putting a picture of their family in their office? Or someone's partner coming to pick them up from work? Or someone talking about their same sex partner the way others talk about their husbands/wives?

But this is a whole other ball of wax and another topic. I think she just included sexual orientation as another group that gets discriminated against.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Homophobia, racism, antisemitism, all originate from anger which is a secondary emotion the result of fear or shame.
Since the origins and causes are the same Homophobia is addressed by all major Civil rights organizations in this country. 
Once someone understands the origins of anger they can then address the issues of fear or shame .
Being Gay is not a choice and all credible Mental Health Organizations agree with this. Suggesting otherwise is pure ignorance
Bearkiller your attempt to instigate an arguement by implying that I am intelectually dishonest is without merit and a futile attempt at best. 
Everyone else Shalom


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Missy May said:


> I don't agree that quotas are necessary - I firmly believe in free markets. * No one in a free market cares what color you are if you have the qualifications they need. * No one that is non subsidized is going to not hire talent because of a color issue. It puts individualism back in the game, true "ownership" of your accomplishments.


Sadly, that is not very often the case. In a perfect world, it would be true. We have come a LONG way in the last fifty years. But we aren't there yet.


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## Bearkiller (Aug 10, 2011)

dbarabians said:


> Homophobia, racism, antisemitism, all originate from anger which is a secondary emotion the result of fear or shame.
> Since the origins and causes are the same Homophobia is addressed by all major Civil rights organizations in this country.
> Once someone understands the origins of anger they can then address the issues of fear or shame .
> Being Gay is not a choice and all credible Mental Health Organizations agree with this. Suggesting otherwise is pure ignorance
> ...





uflrh9y said:


> I don't believe sexual orientation is a choice. I didn't choose to be straight. So I'm not sure what is intellectually dishonest about that. And why would it have to be an inappropriate conversation at work that would show you someone was gay. How about someone just putting a picture of their family in their office? Or someone's partner coming to pick them up from work? Or someone talking about their same sex partner the way others talk about their husbands/wives?
> 
> But this is a whole other ball of wax and another topic. I think she just included sexual orientation as another group that gets discriminated against.


 

So is homophobia a scientific term now? I thought there was a difference between being afraid of something and believing that something is morally wrong. I'm not afraid of homosexuals. I do however believe that the idea that someone gets special treatment because of who they CHOOSE to have sex with is repulsive. Doesn't the whole idea of homosexuality being genetic go against the very basis of evolution? Wouldn't the "homosexual" gene die off very quickly in the process? By the simple fact that the homosexuals wouldn't be procreating? 
I see you referenced "civil rights" organizations. Don't they constantly HAVE to add more groups to their pile of victims in order to keep their organizations going? If they didn't their success wouldn't ultimately be their failure. Look at Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, they sell victimhood(if that's a word). If there are no victims, they have no voice or (more importantly) funding. By default they have no reason to truely desire change. 

I personally find it just as wrong to give someone *extra *help based their race/ethnicity/religion as it is to discriminate. That is racism in itself. As long as we accept it in any form, it will exist. Look at Elizabeth Warren. She claimed to be a minority and it helped her in her career. How many "non minorities" were not hired due to her priviledged status? Yet, she was a fraud. I suppose you think afirmative action is still perfectly okay, though? However, "discrimination" based on someones choices, are perfectly acceptable and it happens every single day in all parts of life.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

AS LONG AS some Americans can make a $good living being racially divisive, we will have to fight racism in America.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Bearkiller said:


> I personally find it just as wrong to give someone *extra *help based their race/ethnicity/religion as it is to discriminate. That is racism in itself. As long as we accept it in any form, it will exist.


I agree. In fact Allison gave a very good example (about the black supervisor): the guy is really good and deserves his position, however the "minority thing" makes him unsure about himself. Plus there is always a possibility of someone saying/thinking: "hey, he got it only because he's a minority". Which is very sad. If everyone would be treated equally, and people _would know_ they are treated equally unrelated of the race/nation/skin color/you name it it would be much easier on those who indeed deserve that job or position.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

Bearkiller said:


> So is homophobia a scientific term now? I thought there was a difference between being afraid of something and believing that something is morally wrong. I'm not afraid of homosexuals. I do however believe that the idea that someone gets special treatment because of who they CHOOSE to have sex with is repulsive. Doesn't the whole idea of homosexuality being genetic go against the very basis of evolution? Wouldn't the "homosexual" gene die off very quickly in the process? By the simple fact that the homosexuals wouldn't be procreating?
> I see you referenced "civil rights" organizations. Don't they constantly HAVE to add more groups to their pile of victims in order to keep their organizations going? If they didn't their success wouldn't ultimately be their failure. Look at Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, they sell victimhood(if that's a word). If there are no victims, they have no voice or (more importantly) funding. By default they have no reason to truely desire change.
> 
> I personally find it just as wrong to give someone *extra *help based their race/ethnicity/religion as it is to discriminate. That is racism in itself. As long as we accept it in any form, it will exist. Look at Elizabeth Warren. She claimed to be a minority and it helped her in her career. How many "non minorities" were not hired due to her priviledged status? Yet, she was a fraud. I suppose you think afirmative action is still perfectly okay, though? However, "discrimination" based on someones choices, are perfectly acceptable and it happens every single day in all parts of life.


I agree w you for the most part - except gays. I believe homosexuality is a genetic defect, which there is scientific evidence to support. I therefore see it as a handicap which should fall under ADA or something - not demand "more equal" treatment. I do not believe they choose to be that way. That doesn't mean there are not whackos that do "choose" to be that way.

With respect to evolution - homosexuality does not "go against it" b/c civilization and technology do not "not favor" it, and it never render them sterile in pre-historic times. I feel sorry for these people, I can't even imagine the horror of waking up in a man's body - which is essentially what I am guessing it must be like. However, I do not believe they should be treated "more equal", and I do not believe the rest of the population should be forced to be exposed to and accept their sexual behavior and lifestyles and consequential diseases on the basis to do otherwise is "intolerant".


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## Bearkiller (Aug 10, 2011)

If someone is truely gay from birth even if they "aren't sterile" they certainly would have having substantially less sex with the opposite gender. Therefore, over millions/billions of years the gene would be eliminated. I personally don't believe in evolution but the people who are saying it's genetic are doing so for *political reasons* and are generally the same people who teach evolution as fact rather than theory. Being gay is a moral/social defect. Not a genetic one. It should not be a protected "class" of people anymore than having either short or long hair is. *Individuals are who need to be protected.* Liberals (repulican and democrat) are CONSTANTLY labeling people so they can segregate them. Once they are isolated they can use one group against the other.


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## uflrh9y (Jun 29, 2012)

Bearkiller said:


> I personally don't believe in evolution but the people who are saying it's genetic are doing so for *political reasons* and are generally the same people who teach evolution as fact rather than theory.


I'm not sure how you can make such a generalization like that about people just because they don't agree with you. I believe it's genetic and not for political reasons. I love having conversations with people who believe differently then I do, but not if they are going to minimize me and my beliefs as some generic response with ulterior motives. Couple that with your accusations to dbararabians about being dishonest, makes me think you really don't want to have respectful conversation but an argument, and I'm just not interested. 

G-d Bless and have a Peaceful day.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

Bearkiller said:


> If someone is truely gay from birth even if they "aren't sterile" they certainly would have having substantially less sex with the opposite gender. Therefore, over millions/billions of years the gene would be eliminated. I personally don't believe in evolution but the people who are saying it's genetic are doing so for *political reasons* and are generally the same people who teach evolution as fact rather than theory. Being gay is a moral/social defect. Not a genetic one. It should not be a protected "class" of people anymore than having either short or long hair is. *Individuals are who need to be protected.* Liberals (repulican and democrat) are CONSTANTLY labeling people so they can segregate them. Once they are isolated they can use one group against the other.


I agree w you again about labels...there is no doubt those in power gain power w division. But, genetically - no, I disagree. If it is inheritable, it could have been "carried forward" just as dwarfism has been. Having less sex didn't eliminate it, apparently. And, alternatetively, the expression of an aberration can be induced, and a given aberration, itself, can be induced - or just random. And, multiple genes could be and probably are in play. You can also have multiple and different genetic defects on or near a given gene in two people that result in similar physical expressions. It goes on and on. Whether it evolved by accident or design, - "it" is a genetic defect, imo. Gays don't seem to like this idea, much. They don't want to be "labeled" as anything other than what they demand to dictate. That is where it really gets deadly - when science is allowed to be influenced by pc non-sense....we are all doomed.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

uflrh9y said:


> Couple that with your accusations to dbararabians about being dishonest, makes me think you really don't want to have respectful conversation but an argument
> 
> G-d Bless and have a Peaceful day.


It is none of my business and shouldn't say anything and I am aware of that - I just can't help myself. Bear said db was "intellectually dishonest", not dishonest. There is a vast difference between "dishonest" and "unbiased".


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Missy May calling someone intelectually dishonest is in fact calling someone a liar. I can assure you that I am not dishonest about anything.
Bearkillers feeble attempt at inducing a reaction bothers me not.
His limited knowledge of me places that accusation beyond his abilities to judge me.
Being gay hase been proven by sceince to be genetic and as inherent a character as race or hair colour.
Gays and minorities are not asking for special rights they are asking for equal treatment and access to soceity. Both are denied them by institutions and individuals.
I'm not saying everyone is racist or homophobic but our soceity in general still is.
If you look at the unemployment rates of blacks compared to whites this highlights the problems of equality.
If anyone can reasonably look at those figures and not see a problem they are missing the point. Shalom


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

personally i think alot of the racism would completely die out if we removed the forms with race,color, sex, etc etc and made it a fair playing game for everyone. if we can't do that then racism will exist no matter what. 
the reason i think it needs to be eliminated is because i have seen incompetent people hired for jobs that have gotten innocent civilians killed along with co workers killed. such as firemen/women. because of these stupid quotas people who should not be hired are and put peoples lives in danger and the end result is people die and the person who shouldn't have been there, lives and has caused a dent in other peoples lives all because they were given something they shouldnt be given. if you want a certain job then earn the education you need to become successful and stop thinking you are owed something.

as for the groups with hypenated names all i can say is to me that just means you dont want to be american and if you dont then save up the money to move else where. i don't go walking around calling myself irish american or german american or anything like that. i just say i am american. just like the french call themselves french and irish call themselves irish, africans call themselves africans etc etc. by hypenating i think you are showing your racist side and side of not letting go of the past. :/

i also think alot of racism or judgment towards mexicans would go away when the government stops enabling them and allowing them to stay here illegally. and then those that are here legally would not be looked down upon and would be seen as the hard workers they really are.

as for asians i honestly have never seen any racism towards them. i always see them working hard to achieve something.

as for the green (alien) people ..well we haven't met them yet but when we do i bet there will be racism towards them just because we didnt find them earlier or because we didnt help save there planet and give them all our rights right away.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

dbarabians said:


> Missy May calling someone intelectually dishonest is in fact calling someone a liar. I can assure you that I am not dishonest about anything.
> Bearkillers feeble attempt at inducing a reaction bothers me not.
> His limited knowledge of me places that accusation beyond his abilities to judge me.
> Being gay hase been proven by sceince to be genetic and as inherent a character as race or hair colour.
> ...


I won't speak to bearkillers other points - that isn't my intention or place. However, in my experience, the phrase "intellectually dishonest" is used in gentlemanly debate all the time, it does not offend me, I use it w/o hesitiation when appropriate, and it is _far_ from calling someone a liar...it is akin to saying someone is failing to employ "objectivity" in an effort to defend their position. Perhaps in your discipline its means "liar"...but not in any I am familiar with.

I am not nit-picking over semantics - I just don't like misinterpretation that leads to misrepresentation. I have been attacked unjustly on this board b/c of such "failures to interpret", to put it _politely_.


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## Lockwood (Nov 8, 2011)

kait18 said:


> personally i think alot of the racism would completely die out if we removed the forms with race,color, sex, etc etc and made it a fair playing game for everyone. if we can't do that then racism will exist no matter what.
> the reason i think it needs to be eliminated is because i have seen incompetent people hired for jobs that have gotten innocent civilians killed along with co workers killed. *such as firemen/women.* because of these stupid quotas people who should not be hired are and put peoples lives in danger and the end result is people die and the person who shouldn't have been there, lives and has caused a dent in other peoples lives all because they were given something they shouldnt be given. if you want a certain job then earn the education you need to become successful and stop thinking you are owed something....


kait18, 
I bolded the above portion of your post. 
Could you perhaps expound upon that and maybe explain why you chose that group?
Thanks
(Lockwood is curious)


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## Bearkiller (Aug 10, 2011)

dbarabians said:


> Being gay hase been proven by sceince to be genetic and as inherent a character as race or hair colour.
> Gays and minorities are not asking for special rights they are asking for equal treatment and access to soceity.


Oh, please. I'd love to see the study that PROVES it. It was scientists who used to say the world was flat. When I say intellectually dishonest this is exactly what I am talking about. You and others like you really like to throw theory and opinion out as fact. When you say that minorities don't have equal treatment and access to society, do you really have a straight face? I mean, afterall, we do have a president who is half black. I know that's an inconvenient truth for you but it's undeniable. If our society was racist, it couldn't happen. On those lines, is there anything more racist than BHO getting 96% of the black vote with Bill Clinton only getting 82% in 1996? Or John Kerry only getting 69%? I feel for the black community. They are completely handicapped by the federal government. It's a shame that our prison systems have such high percentages of minorities. But it's not going to change until people start electing politicians who respect individuals and not labels. BTW, I say this coming from the most diverse family I know of. 







uflrh9y said:


> I'm not sure how you can make such a generalization like that about people just because they don't agree with you. I believe it's genetic and not for political reasons. I love having conversations with people who believe differently then I do, but not if they are going to minimize me and my beliefs as some generic response with ulterior motives. Couple that with your accusations to dbararabians about being dishonest, makes me think you really don't want to have respectful conversation but an argument, and I'm just not interested.
> 
> G-d Bless and have a Peaceful day.


I didn't call him dishonest, ever.

I wasn't refering to you when I said "the people". I was refering to the left wing zealots and the "gay rights" people. I honestly think this gay rights stuff takes attention away from real cases of discrimination. Like our prison system. But since you are convinced that it's genetic, how would you feel about Dr's and parents selectively eliminating (killing) embryos (babies) because they carried this gene? I personally think it would be wrong, in theory. But they are doing sex based abortions so why not this? Would it be okay to kill embryos that carried strong brown hair genes? Should only blonde haired, blue eyed babies be allowed to be born? My point is that this "research" is probably going to do more harm than good for society and individuals. The only real advantage is political.


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

Lockwood said:


> kait18,
> I bolded the above portion of your post.
> Could you perhaps expound upon that and maybe explain why you chose that group?
> Thanks
> (Lockwood is curious)


they are just who i am around and know the in's/outs of what they do and how there system works.

there jobs are directly related to saving others yet with these quotas and everything put on the applications certain people can get a barely passing grades and be hired which effects how a department responds to an emergency.
for example with the fire department i associate with. there are 2 black females 8 black males and 10 white males and 1 white female and 5 hispanics. broken up into 3 shifts that work 72 hours. the passing grade for all is 71% on written and physical. the average male or female who is hired should score around 88 percentile or higher and is on a waiting list for 5 or more years. however with these quotas there are more who were hired less then the 5 year waiting list (jumping list we call it) and scored in the lower percentile who beat out more competent people. why?? because they need to fill quotas

the people who also score on the below percentile argue that the written exam is fixed for only one race (All whites) to understand. which is impossible since there have been many from other races who have scored in the higher percentile but that is only a few and the ones who did worked there but off to get those marks.

just a few months ago there was a fire and the department responded. there was 4 casualties. 3 innocent people and 1 firemen. who was to blame?? the incompetent firemen they hired. he couldnt handle anything physical so they put him on radio. how can someone mess up repeating what someone is saying. well he did and it cost those 4 people there lives. when it got out so did his score on the test. he had below the 71% percentile on written and phyiscal and was hired to fill a quota. if you cant handle it you cant handle it no matter what, just because the government makes loop holes for you doesnt mean you should be allowed to get the job nor does it mean you can handle it.

and when you look at it from a side like this there really isnt room to be trying to fill quotas it should be about how many lives you can save. when you put that for office jobs i guess it doesnt look like it can be detrimental but it will over a course of time. 


as for why i chose men and women firefighters.. well because its the biggest diversity i see. alot of women physically can't handle it. not saying all but most cant. doesnt matter what color they are. we all have a certain weakness compared to men and that is the way our body's are. but mentally they can

the tests are made for both sex's to have a fair chance against another and when it comes to physical whether in military or firedepartment or police department women have a smaller standard then men but for women its equivalent to what men would have to do. 

hope that ramble made sense lol :/


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Ok, Somebody clue me in. What's racism? Is that like discriminating against gays?


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

I date an Indian guy. We get the whispers, and occasionally, hilarious stuff yelled at us. "Interracial!" is the most popular one. Both of us are well educated, have good jobs, spend lots of money (haha) and are contributing members of society. The fact that we have (very) different skin colors and heritage is in the grand scheme of things, very minor. However, our babies might actually be cuter because they will be mocha colored.

On the subject of the LGBTQ community and their rights, I think there is a lot of discrimination there in a lot of communities, especially towards marriage. Catholics and Protestants have been joined together under holy matrimony for years. What is the difference in wedding two people of the same gender when two people of different religions can be married with no issue?? I look around me and see so many people getting married young or for the wrong reasons and end up separated or divorced a few years (or months) later. I have friends who happen to be gay that are way more committed to each other and in love but are not allowed to be married in certain jurisdictions and to me it makes no sense. That two people that are in love and have a commitment are not allowed to be married, but two people who are just out of high school or in Vegas on a fling can get married no questions asked - and the only difference between the couples is that one consists of two men or two women and the other consists of a man and a woman? It absolutely boggles me.
I think the US in particular has a long way to go until they can stop discriminating against the LGBTQ community. Marriage is only part of the issue. There are lots of kids in school getting bullied, lots of adults in the workplace getting bullied or fired, etc... Having friends and relatives that are lesbian and gay I know that it's not just a matter of throwing the bible at them and telling them that being gay is wrong. Honestly they are just born lesbian or gay and that's just how it is. No one gets to choose their skin color, social status, sexual orientation or deformities in the womb, so IMO discrimination because of things that are out of people's control is cruel and inhuman. You get to choose your beliefs and value systems and change and adapt and learn and grow. Why not learn and choose to accept people as is? It's not that tough, really, to just love everyone as they were put on this Earth by whatever deity you believe in.


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## SouthernTrails (Dec 19, 2008)

Saddlebag said:


> Ok, Somebody clue me in. What's racism? Is that like discriminating against gays?


*
*

Definition of Racism:

A belief that Race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race.

How many people today think a Race different than their own is Inferior? Yes, there are a few Radicals, but let's get Real......



Racism today is Distorted, the word Racism or Racist is used anytime someone of a different Race disagrees with another.

If the ones screaming Racist all the time would spend their energy on Unity instead of Headlines, the world would be a better pace.

For the African-American comments, I have two friends who came from South Africa, both born in South Africa, one is White and one Black, they both are now US Citizens, they have told me would both like to slap anyone that uses the term African American :lol: They call themselves Americans, they both said the fought long and hard for the Right to be called an American.



.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

The Pew Charitable Trust is a nonprofit nonpartisian research organization.
They just released a study that shows that blacks are more likely to be disadvantaged than whites.
53% of blacks raised at the poverty line will remain there thropughout their lives.
Compared with 33% of impoverished whites.
56% of blacks will fall from the middle income area to poverty.
Compared with 33% of whites.
Most telling of all was the fact that the study could not compare the top 2 levels of income for blacks because the number of blacks in that wage group was too small to study.
If racism were no big issue in employment and education then the numbers would be about the same for all groups. They are not.
Bear killer if I misinterpreted your meaning of the term intellectually dishonest. I sincerely apologize. 
In my professional circles it means dishonesty. Shalom


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## Bearkiller (Aug 10, 2011)

dbarabians said:


> The Pew Charitable Trust is a nonprofit nonpartisian research organization.
> They just released a study that shows that blacks are more likely to be disadvantaged than whites.
> 53% of blacks raised at the poverty line will remain there thropughout their lives.
> Compared with 33% of impoverished whites.
> ...


No one can dispute that minorities are more likely to be impoverished. However, the cause is easily disputable. To imply or state that it's racism is way to easy and quite frankly lazy. The areas where most of this poverty is are mostly the same areas where liberal politics and left wing social engineering have been going on for decades. Look at detroit. It is the best example.........


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Bearkiller I did not intend to imply that racism was the only reason for the disparity in incomes that I posted before.
The study also noted that not only race but income level and area that you lived in have as much to do with your chances of success as your race.
That study shows that racism is still an issue and needs to be addressed.
I am a psychologist I read a lot of sudies and reports that help me understand the issues that face my clients.
All of my clients that are minority or gay have issues with the negative impacts on their lives due to racism or homphobia.
Only a few have been so devasted by racism that they cease to function as members of soceity.
Racisms impact permeates our society at all levels and is counter productive to the demands of our countries future. Shalom


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## Lockwood (Nov 8, 2011)

kait18 said:


> they are just who i am around and know the in's/outs of what they do and how there system works.
> 
> there jobs are directly related to saving others yet with these quotas and everything put on the applications certain people can get a barely passing grades and be hired which effects how a department responds to an emergency.
> for example with the fire department i associate with. there are 2 black females 8 black males and 10 white males and 1 white female and 5 hispanics. broken up into 3 shifts that work 72 hours. the passing grade for all is 71% on written and physical. the average male or female who is hired should score around 88 percentile or higher and is on a waiting list for 5 or more years. however with these quotas there are more who were hired less then the 5 year waiting list (jumping list we call it) and scored in the lower percentile who beat out more competent people. why?? because they need to fill quotas
> ...


Yes, it made sense and thanks for explaining your point. 
The statement I referred to came across like it could have gone a few different directions so I’m glad I asked.

I agree with some of your points and it is a shame about what happened at that fire.
Just FYI, in regards to your last sentence on the tests, there are some places where the physical standard are equal for men and women period. Size, height, age and gender have no bearing on the performance expectations and requirements.
While it may not be the majority, thankfully some (ok, maybe just a few??) places do not hire based on quotas alone. 
You can’t cut it, you don’t get the job, and that way it should to be in certain types of jobs or careers.


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

Here's an example of what kait18 was talking about. My curiosity about the article was over the wording "reverse discrimination" instead of "discrimination".

High court backs firefighters in reverse discrimination suit - CNN


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Kait, I can remember when all the police officers and firemen were white.
It wasn't that long ago.
I have no problem with quotas if the hiring practices of the past have not been progressive enough to assure equal representation of races that reflect the community.
I am a Jewish American and am proud to be classified as one.
It denotes both my religion and my ancestry as well as the country that I was born in.
Being counted a Jewish American is improtant due to the fact that there are less than 8 million of us.
Individually we are nothing.
Collectively we are a economic and political force that is disproportionate to our numbers. We are the highest earning group of people in the USA.
Followed by Irish Americans who out number us 10-1.
It is important to denote our differences in race and religion.
Denying someones race is excluding who they essentially are. That is harmful to an indivduals self worth.
No one is truly colourblind. Shalom


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> What is the difference in wedding two people of the same gender when two people of different religions can be married with no issue??


 

Love is not measurable, one's sex is. No one is being descriminated against when two men or women can't get married since sexual orientation doesn't enter the equation. The law applies to all people equally, be they straight, indifferent, or gay.


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

dbarabians said:


> Denying someones race is excluding who they essentially are. That is harmful to an indivduals self worth.


True. But I am white and only American - no hyphenated anything but American. I CANNOT say I'm white and proud of it without being labeled a racist and you know it!


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

dbarabians said:


> I am a Jewish American and am proud to be classified as one.


Okay, you lost me here. I did not know that jewish was a race. 

I am in no way ashamed of my "race" or "religion", but I am proud to be an American - and the rest is just personal information. I think it brings a nation together to celebrate what they have in common - not what divides them.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Missy May I am celebrating my heritage by acknowledging it all.
That empowers me as it should everyone.
When people are in the majority it is assumed that they are members unless someone can see any difference or are told otherwise.
Missy May Jews are no longer a race of people yet we are a distinct group sharing a common place of origion, a religion, and a history.
Everywhere but the State of Israel we are a minority. Shalom


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## VT Trail Trotters (Jul 21, 2011)

Im horrible in the topic being i have no idea what to say, but we got discrimination of all types. From race to gender to appearance of people. Im sure down south in them small towns, not Atlanta people, they got discrimination of color. Its stupid that you would think of someone less because they have a different skin tone/color what ever you my call it. Were all human, we are the same biologically, we may not look the same but we are the same being. So racism i dont understand but people in a different time thought that they were higher. Oh and Atlanta is the most northern town in Dixieland. xD 

But we still got discrimination of all types and you cant talk just about racism. Still you got places that discrimiante against women, golf courses do i hear. I hate golf, and I know other places do too. Along with that you got people who are much to quick to judge like the general public on appearance of people, if you go to apply for a job you may not land it on account the hiring person may look at you, with me see my scars from cutting and say "oh no no no we cant have this guy work for us, hes got scars half way up his arm!" Its wrong to do this and you shouldnt but people still do. Oh and matter of homosexuality, people have a big issue with that cause there basically afraid of them? I dont understand their reasoning but heck i know a few gay people, there really cool people and funny. Just so many people in the world are close minded, i try to keep a open mind to things. Im not perfect... far from it actually. I dont give a hoot as to what people think of me. If you see my scars if im out in public i dont really care unless you make a big deal out of it. Im a really nice guy and just cause me or others may have scars, look different, may not "blend in" with the general population doesnt mean were bad.


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

dbarabians said:


> Kait, I can remember when all the police officers and firemen were white.
> It wasn't that long ago.
> I have no problem with quotas if the hiring practices of the past have not been progressive enough to assure equal representation of races that reflect the community.
> I am a Jewish American and am proud to be classified as one.
> ...


im not sure i understand your point above 

all i was trying to say is to hypenate a name such as irish american, jewish american, african american and so forth is like saying you dont want to be amercian. if thats the case then move out. that in no way means you can't practice what your nationalites beliefs are or things of that nature. if you want to be american then say you are american plain and simple and hold true to your hertiage by practicing your beliefs not forcing people to know how you are different. no one needs to know other then you. we all came to american for the one thing to get away from our country and there suppressive ways. but when we come to america we wont honor america by calling ourselves american we denote it by saying hypenated names. we are all equal the day people start realizing there is no difference in what type of hypenated american we are but by realizing we are all just americans with different backgrounds, is the day we will make a step forward. 

as for individuals self worth. that is up for them i know many people who know there heritage and don't know there hertiage who think they have no self worth...it has nothing to do with what there background is but who they are as an individual and how they see themselves. if they think they are worthless well there is nothing more you can do for them other then telling they are not...knowing there nationalites isn't going to change anything..

as for the test to represent all... because of the different upbrings and schooling there will never be a way to make something compeltely equal in such a manner. if we want the poverty areas to have a chance to succeed well then make a countrywide system for schooling that every state follows so everyone has the same opporunity. then its up to the individual to make their own way. if they would rather take the easy way out and join a gang or whatever then fine so be it..but dont compalin to me that you didnt have an opporunity to succeed... and dont tell me well they are poor or dont have money. find a job and earn your way out.

i might have been lucky enough to be born into a middle class family but my best friend was absolutely in the poorest family in our area and he was black. the thing that brought us together was that we both had no money. we went to two different schools and met through work. the thing that brought us together was the attitude to better ourselves and make money. my parents werent going to give me any and his parents couldnt give him any money. we found jobs in 8th grade and have had 1-2 jobs ever since even during school months and while playing sports and keeping our grades above B's. he had the choice to join gangs or do bad things but he didnt he chose to better himself. its all in the individual! if they dont want to succeed they wont, if they look to the government to find them a way out they will never get out. when will people learn in order to get something you need to work hard to get it!

oh boy that was long...sorry


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## uflrh9y (Jun 29, 2012)

kait18 said:


> im not sure i understand your point above
> 
> all i was trying to say is to hypenate a name such as irish american, jewish american, african american and so forth is like saying you dont want to be amercian. if thats the case then move out. that in no way means you can't practice what your nationalites beliefs are or things of that nature. if you want to be american then say you are american plain and simple and hold true to your hertiage by practicing your beliefs not forcing people to know how you are different. no one needs to know other then you. we all came to american for the one thing to get away from our country and there suppressive ways. but when we come to america we wont honor america by calling ourselves american we denote it by saying hypenated names. we are all equal the day people start realizing there is no difference in what type of hypenated american we are but by realizing we are all just americans with different backgrounds, is the day we will make a step forward.


Just because you don't relate to why someone identify them self a certain way, doesn't give you the right to decide they are not worthy to be called Americans. What makes this country so wonderful is it's embrace of cultures as unique and how it welcomes differences. We were not always like that. In the past, we expected immigrants to assimilate to become a single American. They came here and stripped themselves of their culture in order to become American. And those who were not willing to assimilate (like Native Americans....which one could argue is the only true American)were beaten and forced off their land and marginalized. 

Also, please realize that there is no one America. There is a North and South America and it is made up of many many countries including Canada, Mexico, the US, and 13 countries in South America. So there is no one American. However, we all can appreciate each other for what we have to offer and how we are connected. 

I am Cuban-American. I am sorry that by calling myself that in some way degrades you and offends you because to you it points out our differences. If you see nothing but our differences, then the way I describe myself is not going to change that. Why should I change the way I label myself, to make someone else more comfortable with me? 

I think the first step to ending every -ism is to stop generalizing and to see people as individuals. Your post was filled with generalizations and this thread is as well. You have spoken for entire groups of people. Until we are all willing to drop our biases and listen to each other as individuals and not put our preconceived notions on to other people, there is no way things can change.


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## uflrh9y (Jun 29, 2012)

Horse Poor said:


> True. But I am white and only American - no hyphenated anything but American. I CANNOT say I'm white and proud of it without being labeled a racist and you know it!


I guess it would depend what made you proud to be White? I have heard that statement before in my classes and my response is, "There are things about us we all have to be proud of. What is it about being White that makes you proud?" No one yet has been able to answer that. 

My father has very dark skin and my mother is white. Speaking simply color, I am white. Just being white is not something that gives me pride. That doesn't mean I am ashamed of it or don't like it or I'm not happy to be white. The word proud is a feeling that comes from the result of an action.

proud- Feeling pleasurable satisfaction over an act, possession, quality, or relationship by which one measures one's stature or self-worth:

There is nothing about just being white that causes me to reminisce about something I or my ancestors have done that I should be proud of. That doesn't mean I am ashamed, I just don't have feelings about it. But we are all more then just one thing. I am proud of many many things and we all should be.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

uflrh9y said:


> I guess it would depend what made you proud to be White? I have heard that statement before in my classes and my response is, "There are things about us we all have to be proud of. What is it about being White that makes you proud?" No one yet has been able to answer that.


I think the only point HP was trying to make is if you say "I'm white and proud of it" you'll be called racist. However if you say "I'm black and proud of it" you won't. Which is other side of racism. Personally, I don't see any meaning in saying "I'm proud to be white" or "I'm proud to be black" or "I'm proud to be gray with purple dots". 

I do see the meaning in saying "I'm proud to be the only white player in basketball team" or "I'm proud to be the only black figure skater at the championship" or "I'm proud to be among very few women in, say, physics". Simply because it means you are indeed really good in something that is not very typical for the particular environment.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

uflrh9y said:


> I am Cuban-American. I am sorry that by calling myself that in some way degrades you and offends you because to you it points out our differences. If you see nothing but our differences, then the way I describe myself is not going to change that. Why should I change the way I label myself, to make someone else more comfortable with me?


Why in world should anyone care if you are Cuban-American or Korean or Japanese or Latvian or whatever? Why do you have to label yourself _at all _and tell others about the label? In majority of cases people don't really care how you look like or where your ancestors came from, so why to even tell others if not asked.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

Okay, db, if Jews are a minority in the US - which they indisputably are - but are disproportionately wealthy (according to you), and come in ahead of white-non jews (irish americans, according to you), yet blacks are not in the top two tiers and 50+ percent are below poverty vs 33 in whites....what can one take from that? Is it that Jews are loved by all and given favor whereever they go? I can tell you this, anyone that would "take from it" that blacks are disadvantaged b/c _some_ of their pre-civil war ancestors were slaves and _some_ people are prejudice, which doesn't apply to jews who's ancestors were also slaves b/c their ancestors are more dead - is a _perfect_ example of what contributes to blacks poverty. Pandering to people is especially easy when selling them an excuse as to why they shouldn't try and giving them an alternative to trying. 

If racism were limited to one race, then no white person would be any more hesitant about walking in any all "non-white" lower income neighborhood at night vs an all white one - anywhere in the US. 

If I were going to attempt to limit racism to a race, I would at_ least_ do it by numbers...asian countries are very racist, and their populations greatly outnumber whites. I don't see any boycotts of their products on that basis, though...strange that.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

dbarabians said:


> Everywhere but the State of Israel we are a minority.


It's not quite true, dba. I know there was/is the Jewish Republic formed in USSR while back, where jewish people were the majority. I don't know about now though (because many of them could of immigrate to Israel).


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

uflrh9y said:


> Just because you don't relate to why someone identify them self a certain way, doesn't give you the right to decide they are not worthy to be called Americans. What makes this country so wonderful is it's embrace of cultures as unique and how it welcomes differences. We were not always like that. In the past, we expected immigrants to assimilate to become a single American. They came here and stripped themselves of their culture in order to become American. And those who were not willing to assimilate (like Native Americans....which one could argue is the only true American)were beaten and forced off their land and marginalized.
> 
> Also, please realize that there is no one America. There is a North and South America and it is made up of many many countries including Canada, Mexico, the US, and 13 countries in South America. So there is no one American. However, we all can appreciate each other for what we have to offer and how we are connected.
> 
> ...


i personally could careless if you prefer a hypenated name and it in no way offends me or anything like that. i just find it very un(north)american that anyone feels they need to use a hypenated name to individualize themselves. if it makes you happy fine do it, but dont expect handouts. from where i see it the majority who use hypenated names are trying to get something they didn't earn nor do they deserve but just want whatever it is because they know they wouldn't be able to get it without the help of the government and using the race card. 

and if you want to be correct as of today no other land has native people other then Africa at this point of discovery. everyone else in other countries other than africa are techincally foreigners or immigrants to those countries due to years and years of traveling and conquering new land . So techincally not even native americans are truly americans. 

the one thing that links us is that we are all american no matter what other differences we have. so to keep saying we are all different is obvisous and there is no need to hypenate becasue as a country we have multiple cultures and we all know this so why do we as whole feel the need to point out our differences when we are all different even from our family members? 

if we all truly accepted we were different there would be no need to differentiate from others because we would already understand we are different and feel no need to point out our differences. it would just be accepted as it is we are all different and no one can tell us otherwise so why do we feel the need to go around saying our differences. 

onto another ramble.. if i wanted to know your hertiage i would ask if i wanted to know what country you are from i would ask. if you are american then both answers should be different and should not be the same nor hypenated you cant be born in to differnt countries. you can but then you get dual citizenship which also does not need to be hypenated because no one needs to know if your dual citizenship holder. but people with dual citizenship have more of a right i think to hypenate the countries more so then a natural born US citizen does with a different nationality in there hertiage. 

just what i think hope that made sense... my brain isnt fully functioning today


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

uflrh9y said:


> I guess it would depend what made you proud to be White? I have heard that statement before in my classes and my response is, "There are things about us we all have to be proud of. What is it about being White that makes you proud?" No one yet has been able to answer that.
> 
> My father has very dark skin and my mother is white. Speaking simply color, I am white. Just being white is not something that gives me pride. That doesn't mean I am ashamed of it or don't like it or I'm not happy to be white. The word proud is a feeling that comes from the result of an action.
> 
> ...


 
truly i am proud to be white because that is what god has blessed me to be. if i was black green orange or blue i would think the same. i am blessed for just being alive. to need to have a reason to be proud of your color is racist in itself i think .. why cant someone just be proud of what they were blesed with from birth ??


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

uflrh9y said:


> I guess it would depend what made you proud to be White? I have heard that statement before in my classes and my response is, "There are things about us we all have to be proud of. What is it about being White that makes you proud?" No one yet has been able to answer that.


Really? Maybe they just don't mention the "western culture" in public education anymore. I, for one, am proud of it. 

Good thing they teach geography, though. People can at least find Europe on a map.


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## Lakotababii (Nov 28, 2010)

dbarabians said:


> The Pew Charitable Trust is a nonprofit nonpartisian research organization.
> They just released a study that shows that blacks are more likely to be disadvantaged than whites.
> 53% of blacks raised at the poverty line will remain there thropughout their lives.
> Compared with 33% of impoverished whites.
> ...



I'm not trying to discount studies, but if there is one thing I have learned, it is that "studies" are easily manipulated. 

There are a few things to be noted in every study:
1. Any study that claims, off of just the one study, to prove something, is not even worth noting. You cannot prove anything from one study. In fact, you cannot prove anything from multiple studies, its called error, and it is in every study done.
2. Percentages are very easily manipulated. Numbers would be better representations. 33% of the white population they studied may have been 3 million people, while 56% of the black population may have been only 2 million. So in actuality, more black people are could be getting out of poverty,but, in relative percentage, it looks different on paper. (This is hypothetical of course but you see my point). 
3. If the study was done on income, and the 2 top groups could not be studied, then it skews the results. 

The reasoning that if racism didn't exist,that the numbers would be the same for the groups is also a fallacy in thinking. Race is not the only thing that determines how well a person does in life, especially not in this country. If racism were completely abolished, the numbers would still not be the same. It's called other factors. Equal opportunity IS NOT the same as equal representation.


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## uflrh9y (Jun 29, 2012)

kitten_Val said:


> Why in world should anyone care if you are Cuban-American or Korean or Japanese or Latvian or whatever? Why do you have to label yourself _at all _and tell others about the label? In majority of cases people don't really care how you look like or where your ancestors came from, so why to even tell others if not asked.


Who says I tell anybody when not asked? Why do you assume that if someone calls them selves anything other then plain o'le American means they walk around shouting it out to everyone? Again, a lot of generalizations and assumptions. 

And it comes up quite a bit for me. One of the classes I taught at the University of Virginia was Multicultural Education and I also do teacher education on the subject.


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## uflrh9y (Jun 29, 2012)

kitten_Val said:


> I think the only point HP was trying to make is if you say "I'm white and proud of it" you'll be called racist. However if you say "I'm black and proud of it" you won't. Which is other side of racism. Personally, I don't see any meaning in saying "I'm proud to be white" or "I'm proud to be black" or "I'm proud to be gray with purple dots".
> 
> I do see the meaning in saying "I'm proud to be the only white player in basketball team" or "I'm proud to be the only black figure skater at the championship" or "I'm proud to be among very few women in, say, physics". Simply because it means you are indeed really good in something that is not very typical for the particular environment.


So according to you, it is understandable to say "I am proud to be the only white player on a basketball team". Good point. Because they are a minority who overcame stereotypes like "white me can't jump" and "white guys are not good at basketball" and they prospered despite the fact that not a lot of people like them have. 

I assume that would be the same feeling for Black people in this country. They had an entire history of discrimination, individual and institutional, and have as you said "prospered despite the fact that not a lot of people like them have".


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Lakotababi, the study also suggest that where you live and the income of your parents influences your status.
With a disparity of over 20% between balcks and whites racism has to play a role. How big a role has not been determined.

As for self identifying with a certain group, please note that certain groups have done well in this country. 
Arabs, Jews, and Asians have all prospered dispite being minorities.
The one thing they all do in common is identify themselves ethnically, by religion, or by geographic region. They use their identity as a form of empowerment and by doing so achieve success. 

Sorry about not being able to respond witha daughter in the hospital in Dallas and a farm to maitain near Paris I do not have time to scratch my watch or wind my butt. Shalom


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

dbarabians said:


> Lakotababi, the study also suggest that where you live and the income of your parents influences your status.
> With a disparity of over 20% between balcks and whites racism has to play a role. How big a role has not been determined.
> 
> As for self identifying with a certain group, please note that certain groups have done well in this country.
> ...


Hope all is well w your daughter.

Db, I see the problem, now...you don't think the US ever had a "culture" or government (doctrine, not those that govern) worth preserving. You must know that when all citizens of the US were proud to be American (i.e,. identified w a geographic location, and were proud of their what defined their country including its culture and history) - this country as whole excelled exponentially in growth on nearly every level...the arts, technology, wealth, etc.,. Now that the western culture has been "eliminated" from existance in people's _minds_ by eliminating it from education as ulrlf's example above so clearly demonstrates. Instead people are taught the US is evil, and its history is nothing but a long trail of horrors to be ashamed of, and all cultures OTHER than western culture and the US's culture should be celebrated and are superior - and WALA, you get a decline of equal magnitude. Its kind of like being pushed into the sea in the figurative sense. Yet, you think arabs, jews, and whatnot excell b/c they are not divided and its a good thing. Okey-dokey.

I am an American in every possible sense of the word, I am a DAC and native american....I don't think EITHER's history is inferior to current "sub-cultures" in this country, in fact I find that idea laughable. But, then again, eliminate history and people _think _they invented the internet....or can't think of a reason to be "proud" of their white heritage.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Thanks for asking about my daughter Missy MaY.
She has gotten an infection. I have cancelled my therapy sessions for the week and will be at the hospital or at my apartment here in Dallas.
Paris is 103 miles away and I need to be near her so the farm and horses are in the hands of Jesus and Miquel for now.

Missy May I AM an American and proud of it.
Our culture is valuable and vibrant it is also multicultural. We need to embrace that and celebrate it not ignore it.
Racial and religous diversity are an important and vital part of our culture.
My parents chose to become foster parents and my family became multiracial .
My parents encouraged my foster brothers to embrace their racial identity and they did.
Their christian customs and holidays were celebrated as well as jewish ones. 
Their traditions were not a threat to ours , so should it be with racial identity. Shalom


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## uflrh9y (Jun 29, 2012)

Missy May said:


> Hope all is well w your daughter.
> 
> Db, I see the problem, now...you don't think the US ever had a "culture" or government (doctrine, not those that govern) worth preserving. You must know that when all citizens of the US were proud to be American (i.e,. identified w a geographic location, and were proud of their what defined their country including its culture and history) - this country as whole excelled exponentially in growth on nearly every level...the arts, technology, wealth, etc.,. *Now that the western culture has been "eliminated" from existance in people's minds by eliminating it from education as ulrlf's example above so clearly demonstrates. Instead people are taught the US is evil, and its history is nothing but a long trail of horrors to be ashamed of, and all cultures OTHER than western culture and the US's culture should be celebrated and are superior *- and WALA, you get a decline of equal magnitude. Its kind of like being pushed into the sea in the figurative sense. Yet, you think arabs, jews, and whatnot excell b/c they are not divided and its a good thing. Okey-dokey.
> 
> I am an American in every possible sense of the word, I am a DAC and native american....I don't think EITHER's history is inferior to current "sub-cultures" in this country, in fact I find that idea laughable. But, then again, eliminate history and people _think _they invented the internet....or can't think of a reason to be "proud" of their white heritage.


 Can you please explain the bolded? Where from anything I have said did you get that western culture has been or should be eliminated from education and that it is a history of nothing but shame that should not be celebrated? I am very confused. Are you equating western culture the same as saying white?


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

uflrh9y said:


> I guess it would depend what made you proud to be White? I have heard that statement before in my classes and my response is, *"There are things about us we all have to be proud of. What is it about being White that makes you proud?" No one yet has been able to answer that. *





uflrh9y said:


> Can you please explain the bolded? Where from anything I have said did you get that western culture has been or should be eliminated from education and that it is a history of nothing but shame that should not be celebrated? I am very confused. Are you equating western culture the same as saying white?


Sorry for any confusion, but if someone that is white can not answer what it is about being white that makes them proud....I am guessing they haven't studied the history of western culture for any length of time - ever.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

dbarabians said:


> Thanks for asking about my daughter Missy MaY.
> She has gotten an infection. I have cancelled my therapy sessions for the week and will be at the hospital or at my apartment here in Dallas.
> Paris is 103 miles away and I need to be near her so the farm and horses are in the hands of Jesus and Miquel for now.
> 
> ...


Sorry to hear your daughter has an infection. Dallas traffic would be enough to make me wish horses were the only mode of transport, much less have to worry about my child on top of it! 

Asking that the heritage, history, culture and government (again, doctrine, not political crazies in office) of the US be celebrated and unite us ALL is not precluding anyone from celebrating anything as an individual anymore than it is asking that you remove your individual thumbprints. The two are NOT connected. You choose to ignore my point. If you do not see how the US's history (all of it as a whole), "heritage" and "culture" is treated as "the root to all evil" w emphasis on the white contribution - you need to get out more.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Bearkiller said:


> I do however believe that the idea that someone gets special treatment because of who they CHOOSE to have sex with is repulsive.


 I think you fundamentally miss the point about gay rights - they are not asking for special treatment, they are asking for the same rights as everyone else. 




Bearkiller said:


> Being gay is a moral/social defect.


 That would be YOUR opinion. In MY opinion, your statement is morally and socially defected, and thoroughly offensive. 





Bearkiller said:


> No one can dispute that minorities are more likely to be impoverished. However, the cause is easily disputable. To imply or state that it's racism is way to easy and quite frankly lazy. The areas where most of this poverty is are mostly the same areas where liberal politics and left wing social engineering have been going on for decades. Look at detroit. It is the best example.........


 I would agree that racism is not really the reason why minorities tend to be poorer. However the way this county is run does not help the issue one bit. 
Everyone is well aware that house values determine school taxes, we tend to try to buy houses in good school districts. It's in an absolutely asinine system that ensures (in the majority of cases) that the middle class receives a better education than the kids in the ghetto. The system is working against the poor of all races, not in their favor. 

I lived just outside Detroit for a good few years, I don't believe that it was anything to do with local politics - it was a lack of jobs when the car companies started to crumble. 




Missy May said:


> If racism were limited to one race, then no white person would be any more hesitant about walking in any all "non-white" lower income neighborhood at night vs an all white one - anywhere in the US.


 I work in Reading PA, it's a small town of mainly Hispanic and black people. It's also a very dangerous town with extremely high rates of violent crime. 
I frequently have to walk to my car alone, in a parking lot behind buildings. Fear is not the word I would use for my feelings, heightened senses and caution would be more fitting. It's not because of my race or the race of most people who live there - it's because of the crime rate, amount of gangs and how impoverished the city is. 
From time to time I read the rants and rave section of CL, the opinions there are that Reading is so crap because of the race of the residents, which is absolute crap - it's because of the lack of income. 





kait18 said:


> from where i see it the majority who use hypenated names are trying to get something they didn't earn nor do they deserve but just want whatever it is because they know they wouldn't be able to get it without the help of the government and using the race card.


Do you seriously believe that people get welfare because of their race? :shock:
I don't even know what to say to that comment as it is just beyond my comprehension. When you complete an application for food stamps, you are suggesting that after you complete your name, addy and all that - that there is one check box and that's your race? End of form?




As a foster parent, I have had many kids of different races living in my house. The most amazing thing that I have seen, repeatedly, is black on black racism. There is an expression of 'burnt' that is thrown around by new kids until they learn that I really do not tolerate it. 
Also amongst the Hispanic community, PR kids say derogatory things about Mexican kids. 

It blows my mind that even within the minorities there is racism. It's almost as if white prejudices have affected their thinking and lighter skin is more desirable within the races too. 

We have a very long way to go!


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

AlexS said:


> I think you fundamentally miss the point about gay rights - they are not asking for special treatment, they are asking for the same rights as everyone else.
> 
> What rights are they denied?
> 
> ...


My responses are in blue.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Missy May said:


> My responses are in blue.


What rights are they denied?

Oh I dunno, equal rights. The right to marry who they choose. The right to have legal rights to health care, which straight people get through marriage - pensions, rights to see partners in hospital etc etc. 

I'd imagine that the conversation will now move onto domestic partnerships v's marriage - however marriage is a LEGAL not RELIGIOUS institution. I managed to marry twice, both entirely devoid of religion. 
Our personal religious believes have nothing whatsoever to do with the legal sanctity of marriage. 


You made my point about racism not being limited to one race. 

I didn't think it was a requirement to disagree about everything. 

Luckily, many ancient civilization were literate, and they documened what skin color was then desirable. Japan - light, arabs - light, some others it was dark, etc.,. So, no matter how much one wants non-white people's prejudices to be the fault of "white prejudices", it is not credible. Asian countries are extremely prejudice - against, gasp, white people, for example. Asian is a race, and many don't "cotton" to "half white mixes". Whose fault is that? 

I am not sure I understand the question - you are asking me whose fault it is that people have always been prejudice, or that every race is prejudice? I have no idea who's fault this is - I think it's probably human nature for the most dominant to believe they are superior. 

My kids frequently tell me that America is the most free nation on earth. I wonder how this is possible in comparison to other developed countries - take Holland for example. Sure many might not wish to use their freedoms, but there are many countries who have equal/more. I believe this to be the most dominant feeling superior. 

And, spray tans are rather popular these days which is a deliberate attempt to darken the color of one's skin. What race would you blame for making darker skin "desirable" and causing people to engage in these dangerous (skin cancer) and wasteful (spray tan) practices? 

I am not sure this is even worth a response. In the 80s, massive hair was fashionable - was this race related? I don't think so.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

AlexS said:


> What rights are they denied?
> 
> Oh I dunno, equal rights. The right to marry who they choose. The right to have legal rights to health care, which straight people get through marriage - pensions, rights to see partners in hospital etc etc.
> 
> ...


Well, w respect to tanning, either the desirable "shade" of skin color as determined between people of the same race is worth noting, or it is not. I believe you noted it in your original post using the word "burnt", and attributed it to white prejudices. 

Yes, I agree ...the fact that prejudices of one sort or another have always exited in virtually all peoples _is _just human nature_..._not the result of "white prejudices"_. _

There is no requirment to disagree about everything of which I am aware. You both disagreed w my point, and made my point in your post. I was just pointing that out.

I have no idea why religion came into play w respect to gay rights - I didn't mention it. I simply know of no right that a gay person is denied. I am a firm believer in "equal treatment under the law" and take extreme offense to anyone that is not afforded equal treatment. With respect to the "right to marry", like I have said many times before, two hetersexuals of the same sex cannot marry, either.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

You know.....when you think about it, we are ALL African-Americans. It depends on just how far back you want to carry our ancestry. If we start thainking that way, we are going to transcend the need to use more "modern nationalistic terms.

See, we are more alike than we thought!


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## uflrh9y (Jun 29, 2012)

Missy May said:


> Sorry for any confusion, but if someone that is white can not answer what it is about being white that makes them proud....I am guessing they haven't studied the history of western culture for any length of time - ever.


Culture and race are 2 different things that are not in any way mutually exclusive.


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## uflrh9y (Jun 29, 2012)

Missy May said:


> With respect to the "right to marry", like I have said many times before, two hetersexuals of the same sex cannot marry, either.


What? If two heterosexuals wanted to get married, then they are not heterosexual. That's like saying It's equal treatment to not allow women at this golf club because men with female genitalia and who look and dress like women aren't allowed either. lol


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## SouthernTrails (Dec 19, 2008)

Allison Finch said:


> You know.....when you think about it, we are ALL African-Americans. It depends on just how far back you want to carry our ancestry.


Really?

The majority of Scholars believe The Garden of Eden was at the mouth of 4 Rivers. That would be what was called Arabia or now known as Iraq.

But then also, so many people believe Human life came from a composite of chemicals and evolved from a single cell, some say it grew and slithered from the mud and one day became a monkey and then a human, I have heard so many theories in the last 50 years, I cannot keep up. :lol:


What if everyone in America went around using Hyphenated Names?

IE: they would say, I am: European-American, Asian-American, South American-American, etc.

I already stated how a Black friend and White friend from South Africa who are now US Citizens feel, not to mention many other Blacka I know feel, they are ALL Americans and proud of it and are critical of the hyphenated titles.

If you only hold one Citizenship from The USA and no other Country you are an American and Only an American.... Plain and simple.



.


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

AlexS said:


> Do you seriously believe that people get welfare because of their race? :shock:
> I don't even know what to say to that comment as it is just beyond my comprehension. When you complete an application for food stamps, you are suggesting that after you complete your name, addy and all that - that there is one check box and that's your race? End of form?
> 
> As a foster parent, I have had many kids of different races living in my house. The most amazing thing that I have seen, repeatedly, is black on black racism. There is an expression of 'burnt' that is thrown around by new kids until they learn that I really do not tolerate it.
> ...


i truly know for a fact that race plays a huge part in welfare it is not solely based on race. for instance two of my relatives one is irish german married to another irish german man. they barely make enough and have 3 kids and should qualify for welfare. but they dont! in the same area another one of my relatives irish german female married an a man of mexican and arab nationalities. they also have 3 kids and make twice as much as my other relative and qualify for food stamps, daycare and abunch of other things. so to tell me honestly that race does not play a role in welfare is absurd. then you have the people who use there race and low income to get welfare and when a job comes up that they could apply for they wont if the wage is less then welfare check...and its allowed through our system for them to turn down a job if its less then there check.
the whole system in our government trying to help more less forunate folks is not really helping anyone. if anything it is hindering it and adding to more race conflicts.

welfare, schooling, jobs, etc all play a huge part in why racism still exists and until we can make a country wide school program that all schools have to follow, then no one will be at the same level as anyone else!

the whole system is flawed and in order to completely erase any racism we have to start over and get rid of the current ways we are trying to deal with it. 

as for racism with in different ethnicities.. well it just doesn't happen here it has nothing to do with how whites treated people back in the day. those traits of wanting lighter skin have been from the beginning before coming to america. if you go to Africa alot of the members in the lower tribes and the overpopulated cities all believe the darker skin is related to evil and the devil and death bacause of the religious beliefs. even europeans wanted lighter skin and would put on makeup to make there face white to have any color was looked down upon for some reason (Will have to look that up again) . some chinese and japanese cultures did the same with white makeup on faces but i think that it was only for events or traditional religious holiday gatherings. so to say interracial problems started or originated because of the way whites think is absolutely not true. and to add to that most religious beliefs believe white as a color, is scared and black as evil and death. again not just one religion thinks of these colors in such a way mulitple religions do. and religions play a huge part in the way people think especially if they or their parents are believers.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

STG, that is true first and formost we are Americans.
Using racial term only such as blacks, hispanic and asian implies that the person being described could be from anywhere.
Adding American includes the place of origin and therefore denotes pride in that. IMO it suggest that being American is a source of pride as well as their racial origin. Shalom


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## Lakotababii (Nov 28, 2010)

AlexS said:


> As a foster parent, I have had many kids of different races living in my house. The most amazing thing that I have seen, repeatedly, is black on black racism. There is an expression of 'burnt' that is thrown around by new kids until they learn that I really do not tolerate it.
> Also amongst the Hispanic community, PR kids say derogatory things about Mexican kids.
> 
> It blows my mind that even within the minorities there is racism. It's almost as if white prejudices have affected their thinking and lighter skin is more desirable within the races too.


So are you saying it is even white people's fault that other races are racist? :shock:

That just blows my mind. It is not inherent for just white people to feel superior. It's not like this all came out of the evil white man, and now all of the earths various races are tainted with our thinking.

Unfortunately, a lot of people think they are better than others, whether it be for skin color or other things. Look at the conflicts between Muslims, and Christians, and other religious organizations. They have issues, both within their groups and between major religions. 

Throughout history there are multiple stories of people being mutilated or killed because they are from the "wrong" tribe, or nation, or whatever. But it is not just white people who believe they are superior. 

In fact, the way that slaves were originally brought over from Africa? They were betrayed by their fellow Africans, who were black people, who thought they were better than them. Go figure. 

Is there racism amongst white people? Absolutely. SOME of them. But there is JUST AS MUCH among other races as well, and those races didn't learn it from white people. That's just absurd.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Lakotababi, years ago a study was done focusing on young girls.
Children both black and white were used and were given a choice of dolls that were reflective of both races.
The whites overwhelming picked white dolls as was expected.
Young black girls did too though.
What was surprising was the response to questions about which doll was prettier, smarter, nicer, and so on.
Young black girls mirrored their white counterparts in saying that the white doll was more desirable. 
This was done in the early 70's and again in the 80's I do not know what the results would be now hopefully they would be different.
My point being that there was and still is a preconceived notion in the African American community that straight hair, small noses, and lighter skin are preferable.
I have had several dark skinned female clients that affirmed this.
The stigma is there . 
I do not know how much racism plays a part in this but it undeniably does.
Shalom


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## Lakotababii (Nov 28, 2010)

dbarabians said:


> Lakotababi, years ago a study was done focusing on young girls.
> Children both black and white were used and were given a choice of dolls that were reflective of both races.
> The whites overwhelming picked white dolls as was expected.
> Young black girls did too though.
> ...


I've heard of this study, and it is very interesting for sure. No doubt that there is some weird preference for lighter skin, and there for sure is stigma and racism. No doubt about it. 

But I do not think it right to blame just white people for problems with racism. To me, that in and of itself is racist, because you are blaming one race for problems. 

Racism, ironically enough, does not discriminate. It happens in every color, nation, tribe, tongue, whatever. I just don't like that white people are the evil ones that get blamed for it, like they are the root of the problem. 
Right now, in our culture, yes it is popular to be lighter skinned, tan maybe, but lighter skinned. Does this have something to do with racism? Probably, but like you said, were not sure how much of a role it plays to begin with.


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

uflrh9y said:


> And it comes up quite a bit for me. One of the classes I taught at the University of Virginia was Multicultural Education and I also do teacher education on the subject.


Do you teach Western Culture in your "Multicultural Education" classes?


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

dbarabians said:


> Lakotababi, years ago a study was done focusing on young girls.
> Children both black and white were used and were given a choice of dolls that were reflective of both races.
> The whites overwhelming picked white dolls as was expected.
> Young black girls did too though.
> ...


A friend of mine is black and she says that the darker your skin the greater the blemishes show. IOW she lightens her skin so her acne scars don't show as much (more even skin tone). She also straightens/relaxes her hair because it makes it more manageable and she has more style options open to her. Doing these things doesn't mean she wants to be white any more than me getting a tan and perm means I want to be black.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

uflrh9y said:


> Culture and race are 2 different things that are not in any way mutually exclusive.


Well, I don't know any Americans of egyptian descent that refer to themselves as "African Americans" - do you? If we are not talking about ethnicity and heritage, are we talking about just physical and genetic differences? Most people can't identify what the exact genetic differences are between races by use of universally accepted genetic mapping standards - and not all of them have been identified and mapped. If we are ONLY talking about skin color, _that_ characteristic is as unique to an individual as are fingerprints. So, please enlighten me, what, exactly, are we talking about when people are "proud" to be a given "race"?? Or would it be something like, "I am proud of my particular shade of 'fill in skin tone' b/c it goes so well with most all the new designer dress colors?" WHAT?


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

dbarabians said:


> Lakotababi, years ago a study was done focusing on young girls.
> Children both black and white were used and were given a choice of dolls that were reflective of both races.
> The whites overwhelming picked white dolls as was expected.
> Young black girls did too though.
> ...


This is a rather meaningless study unless it were also performed in Brazil, Africa and Haiti, etc.,.

There are horse colors that are more desirable than others - BLACK is one of them. I really favor true grays and grullas, but I do not currently own one. My "preference" does _not_ mean that I think greys are "better horses" for_ heavens sakes -_ it is a _color_! What individual physical characteristics individuals find desirable cannot be controlled short of mind control methods beyond even Hitler's wildest dreams.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

uflrh9y said:


> What? If two heterosexuals wanted to get married, then they are not heterosexual. That's like saying It's equal treatment to not allow women at this golf club because men with female genitalia and who look and dress like women aren't allowed either. lol


No, it's like saying the law applies to all people equally, hence the term "equal protection under the law". The law does not dictate what private clubs require w respect to acceptable attire.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Missy May regargless of where that study was performed does not discount its importance.
You are an intelligent woman I can tell from your post.
Not looking at the whole picture doesn't change it.
the evidence is there what might be in dispute is how influnced by racism the young black girls decision was. That might not be measurable because how racism affects someone is probably varied in each individual.
No one is saying that only whites can be racist.
No one on this thread has said anything that leads me to believe they are racist.
This discussion is important. It helps us all gain understanding of how racism might be perceived in this country.
I have read and understand everyones post.
I have kept an open mind just because my opinion is different doesn't mean yours is invalid.
The discussion has been good and free of anger and hate.
That is good and also says alot about race relations in our soceity.
Thats progress. Shalom


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## SouthernTrails (Dec 19, 2008)

dbarabians said:


> STG, that is true first and formost we are Americans.
> Using racial term only such as blacks, hispanic and asian implies that the person being described could be from anywhere.
> Adding American includes the place of origin and therefore denotes pride in that. IMO it suggest that being American is a source of pride as well as their racial origin. Shalom


I am proud that I am an American, am I proud of my Roots?, well I am not ashamed of them, but I do not see a need to Hyphenate my description as an American and tell the world where my ancestors came from...lol..

African-American is not a Race

Taxpayers and Business wasted Billions of Dollars and re-printed Billions of Form because someone decided African-Amercan was a Race... how dumb can people be?

One is either White, Black, Asian, The Native Indians of North and South Americans? I am not sure if that is even a Basic Race, some originated from Asia, some from Europe.




.


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

dbarabians said:


> Not looking at the whole picture doesn't change it.
> 
> No one is saying that only whites can be racist.


Here's a bigger picture, db...ONLY whites can be racist and it is by design. ONLY whites can be charged with racial discrimination - anything else is REVERSE discrimination. ONLY white on non-white crimes are considered "hate crimes". Black on black crimes, not even a blip on the screen. Black on white crimes, dig hard, you'll find them, but none will ever be considered hate crimes. But white on black crime - shout it from the roof tops! And it doesn't even need to be true to have an impact (as in the case of the Duke lacrosse rape case and the Virginia student hanging noose incident). And the latest, the Trayvon Martin case, "white man kills unarmed black teen". Zimmerman isn't even white and the case is still ongoing, yet that doesn't stop the "justice for Trayvon" rioting or the media referring to Zimmerman as white. There are literally HUNDREDS of race based organizations, many of which are federally funded. Do you know how many there are for whites? Zero. There can be *insert non-white race* only schools, organizations, publications, etc. When have you ever heard of anything that was white only and not associated with racism? What do you think would happen if there was a WET (white entertainment television), or an Ivory magazine, National Advancement of White People or League of United European American Citizens organization? Can you say RACIST? I can't even criticize the President's POLICIES without risk of being called a racist. Why do you think that is?

Until we STOP identifying people by race will racism ever end.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

uflrh9y said:


> Who says I tell anybody when not asked? Why do you assume that if someone calls them selves anything other then plain o'le American means they walk around shouting it out to everyone? Again, a lot of generalizations and assumptions.


Well.. You are the one who started talking about your own skin color and where your parents came from. :wink: So no assumptions or (especially) generalizations on my side since I was referring to your own words only.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

uflrh9y said:


> So according to you, it is understandable to say "I am proud to be the only white player on a basketball team". Good point. Because they are a minority who overcame stereotypes like "white me can't jump" and "white guys are not good at basketball" and they prospered despite the fact that not a lot of people like them have.


There is a stereotype, but there is also statistics and such thing as physical differences (whether you like it or not). The reason we have so many great black basketball players or runners is simple - they are physically built to success in it (which is awesome if you ask me - I always enjoy to look at those long-legged sprinters), while many whites simply are not. So how discriminating is that and what it has to do with slavery? Frankly I don't see any discrimination here - just simple business approach: you want to win - you use the best possible candidate, doesn't matter what color or race he/she is.


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## uflrh9y (Jun 29, 2012)

kitten_Val said:


> Well.. You are the one who started talking about your own skin color and where your parents came from. :wink: So no assumptions or (especially) generalizations on my side since I was referring to your own words only.


Huh? We are talking about racism. Everyone has mentioned there race or culture or that they have a friend who is (fill in the blank) race. I don't assume Horse Poor and many of the other posters on here walk around talking about their friends of other races/cultures outside of this conversation. At least I hope not.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

dbarabians said:


> there was and still is a preconceived notion in the African American community that straight hair


I asked several black ladies why they prefer straight hair when the curly one look so cute, and the reason given was very simple (in fact same as I was thinking about) - it was easier to deal with straight hair (as well as doing haircut). 

It's funny that those of us with straight hair (me including) use all kinds of things to make the hair curly or (at least) wavy, and those who already have the curls try to straighten them up. Women........


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## uflrh9y (Jun 29, 2012)

Horse Poor said:


> Do you teach Western Culture in your "Multicultural Education" classes?


Well, my classes were not lectures about cultures and history, so there were no lectures about any one culture. But yes, there were many classes on Western Culture as there are in almost every university. And I find it interesting you think children are not taught about western culture. Every history book from K to high school is made up almost entirely of the history of western culture. I would love for you to show me a history text book used in schools that has no trace of western culture aside from elective courses focusing on other cultures. Just saying History Class one presumes the history you are learning is that of our country and western civilization.

And may I ask why you put my class in quotations?


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

uflrh9y said:


> Huh? We are talking about racism. Everyone has mentioned there race or culture or that they have a friend who is (fill in the blank) race. I don't assume Horse Poor and many of the other posters on here walk around talking about their friends of other races/cultures outside of this conversation. At least I hope not.


Frankly, I don't care at all what color or race is anyone on this forum, and I didn't mention my race either in any of my posts. You said you "label" yourself, that's something I simply don't understand. IMHO you label yourself for who you are on inside and achieved in life, not the appearance. But it's just me.


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## SouthernTrails (Dec 19, 2008)

.

Just for reference:

My color usually depends on how long it was since the last time I fell off my Horse :lol:

Bruises, Sprains and Broken Bones will cause color changes on your body:wink:


.


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

uflrh9y said:


> Well, my classes were not lectures about cultures and history, so there were no lectures about any one culture. But yes, there were many classes on Western Culture as there are in almost every university.


If there were no lectures about culture or history, then what did you teach? Please explain to me what you taught as Multicultural Education to students and other teachers?



> And I find it interesting you think children are not taught about western culture. Every history book from K to high school is made up almost entirely of the history of western culture. I would love for you to show me a history text book used in schools that has no trace of western culture aside from elective courses focusing on other cultures. Just saying History Class one presumes the history you are learning is that of our country and western civilization.


Wrong person…I never said anything about what kids are taught or not taught. I asked if you taught it.



> And may I ask why you put my class in quotations?


Because of this quote in #74



uflrh9y said:


> And it comes up quite a bit for me. One of the classes I taught at the University of Virginia was Multicultural Education and I also do teacher education on the subject.


I've never attended college, so I have no idea what Multicultural Education would be…and still don't.


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## uflrh9y (Jun 29, 2012)

kitten_Val said:


> Frankly, I don't care at all what color or race is anyone on this forum, and I didn't mention my race either in any of my posts. You said you "label" yourself, that's something I simply don't understand. IMHO you label yourself for who you are on inside and achieved in life, not the appearance. But it's just me.


Hmmm, so you have never said you were a woman or a girl in conversation about a subject that it would come up in? Just because you have not had the experience to speak about your race or culture or color (which I think is very enlightening in itself), doesn't mean you don't label yourself. We all have labels. I am a woman, a mom, a Dr., a wife, an advocate, a teacher, a professor, an American, a Cuban, a UVA alumni, white, a brunette, an equestrian, ........ Just because I label myself as a Cuban-American when talking about culture doesn't mean it's the ONLY thing I label myself as. And just because you say you have never had to think about your race doesn't mean you don't label yourself in other ways. You have labeled yourself an American many times on this post. So spare me the sanctimony, because we all describe ourselves in labels.


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## uflrh9y (Jun 29, 2012)

Horse Poor said:


> If there were no lectures about culture or history, then what did you teach? Please explain to me what you taught as Multicultural Education to students and other teachers?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ah, ok. No problem. 

I taught Multicultural Education at the Curry School of Education. It was a class open to undergraduates mostly who are seeking teaching degrees, but it was a very popular class and many students outside of Education majors took it. The mission of the class was to have an open dialogue about various issues and topics and it was solely based on respectful communication and sharing of experiences in order to learn about other view points. There was no right or wrong, and the assumption was that everyone has their own truth. 

I used the text book "The Meaning of Difference" and we did activities that revolved around things like classism and how that affects students capacity to learn. We have speaker from the LGBTU and from Lighthouse School for the Blind who discuss their experiences in school. We have mixed race group discussions where kids learn about each other's experiences (like when Black students listen to White students talk about how they often times feel ostracized and segregated when they see a large group of Black students sitting together and want to join but don't feel comfortable). I also require them to do work out in the community in any advocacy group of their choice. We also have an exercise where we hand out a button to everyone that says "Support Gay Rights" and they have to keep it for a week. They can do whatever they want with it, wear it, only wear it sometimes, stick it at the bottom of their drawer in a box. Whatever. The only requirement is they have to write about their experience. Every opinion is valid and no belief is wrong. 

And I will tell you, I have learned that the only way we can end any -ism is through talking about it with respect and listening to each other with open hearts. Not by telling one group what they are doing wrong or who is to blame or making generalizations. But just talking from our own experiences and listening to each other. 

Anyway, I appreciate you asking me about it. I miss teaching.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

uflrh9y said:


> Hmmm, so you have never said you were a woman or a girl in conversation about a subject that it would come up in?


Not really. In fact several times when I went to the conferences organizers didn't even realize I'm a woman till the very last moment.  Because it doesn't really matter to me that I'm a woman when it comes to my work, education, or hobbies (of course we are not talking about giving a birth, because man simply can't do it). And people usually don't ask.

BTW, I don't have a problem with labeling self (the way you explained it in your last post) when one talks about the culture. Because if you are from the different culture you usually have much better understanding and knowledge of it. I have problem with people saying "I'm .... (put any color or country) so I'm better than you".


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

SouthernTrailsGA said:


> My color usually depends on how long it was since the last time I fell off my Horse :lol:
> 
> Bruises, Sprains and Broken Bones will cause color changes on your body:wink:


****, STG! My arms are purple at the moment! I should of be one of that mysterious purplish people (like in japanese cartoons).


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## uflrh9y (Jun 29, 2012)

kitten_Val said:


> Not really. In fact several times when I went to the conferences organizers didn't even realize I'm a woman till the very last moment.  Because it doesn't really matter to me that I'm a woman when it comes to my work, education, or hobbies (of course we are not talking about giving a birth, because man simply can't do it). And people usually don't ask.
> 
> BTW, I don't have a problem with labeling self (the way you explained it in your last post) when one talks about the culture. Because if you are from the different culture you usually have much better understanding and knowledge of it. *I have problem with people saying "I'm .... (put any color or country) so I'm better than you".*


And so do I. I guess we can agree on something. :lol:


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

uflrh9y said:


> Ah, ok. No problem.
> 
> I taught Multicultural Education at the Curry School of Education. It was a class open to undergraduates mostly who are seeking teaching degrees, but it was a very popular class and many students outside of Education majors took it. The mission of the class was to have an open dialogue about various issues and topics and it was solely based on respectful communication and sharing of experiences in order to learn about other view points. There was no right or wrong, and the assumption was that everyone has their own truth.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your answers! If you don't mind, I have one more question and then my curiosity should be satisfied. If every opinion is valid and no belief is wrong, why place so much emphasis on the support gay rights button? Why a "support" anything button, if not designed to influence students in that direction?


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Horse poor I think the class is designed to allow the students to experience cultures and lifetyles they have yet to encounter.
also to "walk a mile in someone elses shoes".
It is hard for someoine to discriminate against someone that they know or like. Shalom


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

Now, db, horse poor didn't ask what the class's stated objectives were. 

I think hp posed a very interesting question. I just love it when logic is introduced into the equation!


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Missy May after the day I have had at the hospital I probably have not digested the meaning of some of these post.
So maybe I should bow out for now and try and read them again later.
Excuse the ramblings of a confused tired and worried parent.
My cognitive abilities might be hampered.
Then again Missy May I bet you probably already think they are. LOL
I am going to put an end to this very trying day.
Shalom Donald


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

Missy May said:


> Now, db, horse poor didn't ask what the class's stated objectives were.
> 
> I think hp posed a very interesting question. I just love it when logic is introduced into the equation!


Missy, her response to me included the mission so I know what the class's objectives are.


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

dbarabians said:


> Missy May after the day I have had at the hospital I probably have not digested the meaning of some of these post.
> So maybe I should bow out for now and try and read them again later.
> Excuse the ramblings of a confused tired and worried parent.
> My cognitive abilities might be hampered.
> ...


Good night dba…sleep well. I'm hitting the hay too...


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## uflrh9y (Jun 29, 2012)

Horse Poor said:


> Thank you for your answers! If you don't mind, I have one more question and then my curiosity should be satisfied. If every opinion is valid and no belief is wrong, why place so much emphasis on the support gay rights button? Why a "support" anything button, if not designed to influence students in that direction?


This is the actual button. 









I misspoke. It doesn't actually *say* support gay rights even though nowadays it stands for that movement. It's the Gay Pride pink triangle (which is the symbol that the Nazi's placed on gay men and women in Concentration camps like the yellow star for Jews). And like I said, it is not a requirement to wear it or even keep it on your person. It's just designed to make you reflect and deal with the situation that many people deal with. The interesting thing is that many people don't know what it stands for so when I have worn it it wasn't an issue really until someone asks or it comes up in conversation which is very much like the situation gay people go through. Then you have to decide are you going to talk about it? How much are you going to talk about? Or are you going to lie? Or are you going to put it away and not deal with it? As Donald said, it helps you walk a mile in someone else shoes. 

I apologize for the confusion.


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## uflrh9y (Jun 29, 2012)

Donald, I pray your daughter is doing better today. You and your family are in my prayers and I will add you to my list for the mi sheberahk tonight.


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## Mckellar (Apr 18, 2012)

Racism goes hand and hand with ignorance. But to be honest you have to not be stupid about it. I got lost coming home from Kentucky, went three a bad neughborhood of Detroit. I locked my doors and drove threw stop signs. Does that make me racist? No that makes me aware of where I am. 

Racism ****es me of from both ends. I live in Canada so huge multi culture, but if you are not white and something happens to you you think is because your black, Arab Asian exc. like maybe think your being treated equally? Ugh


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## uflrh9y (Jun 29, 2012)

Mckellar said:


> Racism goes hand and hand with ignorance. But to be honest you have to not be stupid about it. I got lost coming home from Kentucky, went three a bad neughborhood of Detroit. I locked my doors and drove threw stop signs. *Does that make me racist?* No that makes me aware of where I am.


 No, it doesn't make you racist.



> Racism ****es me of from both ends. I live in Canada so huge multi culture, *but if you are not white and something happens to you you think is because your black, Arab Asian exc*. like maybe think your being treated equally? Ugh


 Again, another generalization. Is it true for some minorities some of the time? Yes, I'm sure. Just like it is true for everyone. Victimization is a human concept. But to say that when bad things happen to minorities they blame the majority is a generalization that perpetuates the exact thing you say ****es you off. If that were true, then no minority would ever have succeeded and our country would not have come as far as it has. It is through the exact opposite of the victim mentality that has raised us above what we once were, from all sides. 

BTW, talking about racism is not the same as blaming it for ones problems.


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## Mckellar (Apr 18, 2012)

That is very true, I may have rushed and didn't use the right wording to get across what I wanted to say.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

dbarabians said:


> Missy May after the day I have had at the hospital I probably have not digested the meaning of some of these post.
> So maybe I should bow out for now and try and read them again later.
> Excuse the ramblings of a confused tired and worried parent.
> My cognitive abilities might be hampered.
> ...


I hope this day brings lots of improvement and goodness, db.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

I have never seen the "gay button". So, let me get this straight, a symbol "style-ized" from a _past_ terrorizing regime of a _foriegn _country that the US helped to _defeat_ is what gay's find appropriate? So, were Gay's collectively infuriated that poor Prince Harry was demonized for his past "inappropriate" choice in halloween costumes - from the same "past era"?

The US's involvement in WWII was a little more costly than the ink for some "button". Some people are thankful to those that contributed to that cost with their _life _while defending our freedoms. 

Maybe multicultural classes should have a few prerequisites - like, US history.

If someone wants to bring attention to the "unfair treatment" of their _personal _sexual preference by use of foriegn symbols...maybe they should try a _current_ Iranian symbol for gay's, a country that _currently_ does not bother w "camps" - they just execute. 

Here in the US, we have equal protection under the law....but some people want to be "more equal"....perhaps symbols taken from Nazi germany _are_ appropriate for them.


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## uflrh9y (Jun 29, 2012)

Missy May said:


> I have never seen the "gay button". So, let me get this straight, a symbol "style-ized" from a _past_ terrorizing regime of a _foriegn _country that the US helped to _defeat_ is what gay's find appropriate? So, were Gay's collectively infuriated that poor Prince Harry was demonized for his past "inappropriate" choice in halloween costumes - from the same "past era"?
> 
> The US's involvement in WWII was a little more costly than the ink for some "button". Some people are thankful to those that contributed to that cost with their _life _while defending our freedoms.
> 
> ...


To me the bolded is rude and unnecessary. Horse Poor and I may not agree on things, but she has been nothing but polite and asked me to explain my class to her. I am more then willing to have a respectful conversation and answer questions. What I won't do is share personal experiences that are dear to me as fodder for someone who's only focus is to be sarcastic and argue in order to make their point.

So, many blessing to all and I hope you continue to have these discussions with each other, because it is so important to talk with people of all beliefs as long as it can be done with mutual respect. Adios y tener un dia maravilloso!


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

uflrh9y said:


> To me the bolded is rude and unnecessary. Horse Poor and I may not agree on things, but she has been nothing but polite and asked me to explain my class to her. I am more then willing to have a respectful conversation and answer questions. What I won't do is share personal experiences that are dear to me as fodder for someone who's only focus is to be sarcastic and argue in order to make their point.
> 
> So, many blessing to all and I hope you continue to have these discussions with each other, because it is so important to talk with people of all beliefs as long as it can be done with mutual respect. Adios y tener un dia maravilloso!


It wasn't meant to be offensive, but if you took offense to it or to US history, that is your right. I take offense to the promotion of Nazism, that is _my_ right, whether you agree or not - that is the intention and wisdom of "equal protection under the law", to name one.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

dbarabians said:


> Lakotababi, years ago a study was done focusing on young girls.
> Children both black and white were used and were given a choice of dolls that were reflective of both races.
> The whites overwhelming picked white dolls as was expected.
> Young black girls did too though.
> ...




Donald, I remember that study, I was *profoundly* disturbed by the fact that small black children preferred the caucasian dolls.

I now mentor three small AA girls. I always try to get racially appropriate dolls for them and have noticed they don't seem to like the black baby dolls very much. I just want to try to encourage the love and caring within their racial group. I try very hard to keep them aware of their history but also the fact that they are part of a huge non-racial group called *American*.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

duplicate post


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

SouthernTrailsGA said:


> I am proud that I am an American, am I proud of my Roots?, well I am not ashamed of them, but I do not see a need to Hyphenate my description as an American and tell the world where my ancestors came from...lol..
> 
> African-American is not a Race
> 
> ...


I couldn't agree more about how inappropriate calling all blacks AA is. I spend a lot of time in Papua New Guinea. These people are MELANESIAN, not African. Yet they are as dark as can be...




















When two Papuan friends came to visit me, here in NC, they were horrified when people referred to them as _African_-American. Also, people I know in India would be equally appalled, even though they are darker than many American blacks.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

Allison Finch said:


> racially appropriate dolls for them and have noticed they don't seem to like the black baby dolls very much. I just want to try to encourage the love and caring within their racial group. I try very hard to keep them aware of their history but also the fact that they are part of a huge non-racial group called *American*.


They probably figured you would get them a toy horse. I am not being flip - I am seriouse. I can't imagine they are completely unaware that you interact a lot w horses?


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

Allison Finch said:


> Donald, I remember that study, I was *profoundly* disturbed by the fact that small black children preferred the caucasian dolls.
> 
> I now mentor three small AA girls. I always try to get racially appropriate dolls for them and have noticed they don't seem to like the black baby dolls very much. I just want to try to encourage the love and caring within their racial group. I try very hard to keep them aware of their history but also the fact that they are part of a huge non-racial group called *American*.


Now why isn't that considered racist? Isn't that saying to them they are not white enough to play with white dolls and that they should prefer black dolls because they're black? Isn't this along the same lines as taking a Barbie from a boy and giving them an action figure because the action figure is more "gender appropriate" while showing total disregard for the child's personal preferrence?


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

Darn it! Every time I log in, someone has stolen carrots from me. I'm DONE! 

SNACKS for everyone until I run out of carrots! Just let me know what you want, cookie, cup cake or cake and I'll send it to you!


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

Oh, stop Horse poor! I was robbed of all but one of my 12 carrots - as soon as I got them!!! I never get anything other than "maybe its for the best" when I try to take one, so I have started to hit the "decline" button on a consistant basis. Besides, zero is an intellectual concept, not a number...so those w zero are smarter.


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

LOL! I guess I just have this thing about for being stolen from. And ZERO is the response I got when I asked how to secure them! Nada…zip…nooooo response…complete silence. *narrows eyes and looks suspiciously at forum moderators* I think they know something about it...


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Horse Poor said:


> Now why isn't that considered racist? Isn't that saying to them they are not white enough to play with white dolls and that they should prefer black dolls because they're black? Isn't this along the same lines as taking a Barbie from a boy and giving them an action figure because the action figure is more "gender appropriate" while showing total disregard for the child's personal preferrence?


I don't consider my being worried about this as racist, in the true sense of the word. I would like to see these children associate their own identity as being *good*, and worthy. The study showed that AA children preferred the caucasian dolls because they saw their lighter skin as being "preferable". The study showed these children saw the darker dolls as not being as "good" as the lighter skinned dolls. Can you not see the evil there?

I believe this is the result of black children being hammered from birth, through the media/TV that caucasian is best.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Missy May the pink triangle is not promoting Nazi propaganda.
It is reminding people that gays were persecuted and put to death solely for who they were. The same as Jews, Gypsys, mentally and physically, handicapped.
When the camps were liberated and the survivors were free the men wearing pink triangles were still held in captivity.
It is now used as an international symbol for the gay community for empowerment and solidarity.
Horse Poor it is human nature to like others that resemble us or share common traits or activities.
This is what a community is based on. Those things we all share alike.
When young african american girls reject a doll that they should favour and find that the black doll is unattractive. It is disturbing.
It also does not reflect well on our soceity as a whole.
Now may I ask a question?
Understand that I am asking this because I truly would like to know.
I also promise not to be judgemental.
If you do not find that the disparity between the races is not due largely to racism can you explain to me why you think this diaparity exist?
Please keep the comments fair and as unbiased as you can. There are members who might be troubled by certain statements. I am certain the mods might be too if they are too judgemental. Shalom


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

dbarabians said:


> Missy May the pink triangle is not promoting Nazi propaganda.
> It is reminding people that gays were persecuted and put to death solely for who they were. The same as Jews, Gypsys, mentally and physically, handicapped.
> When the camps were liberated and the survivors were free the men wearing pink triangles were still held in captivity.
> It is now used as an international symbol for the gay community for empowerment and solidarity.
> ...


Here is the thing, db, how you react to a symbol not just taken from Nazi germany, but Nazi concentration camps, is different from how I react. The constitution does not guarantee me that I will not be offended....it guarantees that for no one. It is nazi-ism that I feel it is promoting, not propaganda..a minor difference. Swastika like symbols appear in ancient civilization, they clearly do not have the "same" meaning. But, when someone knowingly uses a symbol from that regime in order to gain "more equal rights", I take exception. We have gone around and around w the gay thing, the fact of the matter is they are _not _denied any rights - nor are they persecuted in this country!! If they want to change the law so that same sexes can marry, then there is a process for that - but I really resent gays trying to convince me or anyone that b/c gays can't marry they are denied "rights". They are afforded equal treatment under the law, period. They are not asking for "equal rights" they are asking for a "change in the current and looooong standing laws". BIG DIFFERENCE. When any group twists the obviouse and discards the truth and uses propoganda to influence the political process so _they_ can be "more equal" and demonize those that disagree....I immediately DO think of Nazi Germany! 

As to the color of a doll, honestly. I don't think I would knowingly take a drug where no controls were used during any efficacy study. Same for these dolls. If no one knows what the response is observed in nearly all black countries, I just can't take their preference to mean they see that it has any "self worth" meaning.

As to disparity between races...disparity between what (e.g., income, education)?


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Missy May in 1967 Supreme Court struck down lwas that prvented blacks and whites from marrying. In their opinion they clearly stated that the right to marry is a fundamental human right and therfore should not be denied anyone.
As a woman you cannot be fired simply for that. You have recourse under the law.
Gays are denied marriage rights and other rights of inheritance.
They can also be fired without impunity.
You are refusing to see these facts and to admit they are a problem.
The swatika IS a Symbol of hate, murder, and a brutal regime that sought the destruction of the free world. It is now forever associataed with that and whatever it meant befor is obsolete. the pink Triangle is also a symbol and used to confront the general population with its own history.
IT IS NOT propaganda.

The disparity in housing, economic status, unemployment, education, opprtunities, and type of jobs is great between the blacks and whites of this country. 
to ignore the effects of racism both historically and presently demans and prolongs the problem. Shalom


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Allison Finch said:


> When two Papuan friends came to visit me, here in NC, they were horrified when people referred to them as _African_-American. Also, people I know in India would be equally appalled, even though they are darker than many American blacks.


That was a good example. "Stamps" are not a good thing, at all.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Allison Finch said:


> through the media/TV that caucasian is best.


Allison, could you give the examples, please? I don't remember seeing on TV that certain color is better.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

dbarabians said:


> In their opinion they clearly stated that the right to marry is a fundamental human right and therfore should not be denied anyone.


Then polygamy should be allowed as well based on what you are saying.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

dbarabians said:


> Missy May in 1967 Supreme Court struck down lwas that prvented blacks and whites from marrying. In their opinion they clearly stated that the right to marry is a fundamental human right and therfore should not be denied anyone.
> As a woman you cannot be fired simply for that. You have recourse under the law.
> Gays are denied marriage rights and other rights of inheritance.
> They can also be fired without impunity.
> ...


 
No, db, you are refusing to see what I am saying as well as what "is". All I get from your statements is what you believe should or should not be. That is your right, but it has zero to do w facts such as what the current laws _are_, why society needs laws in general, and how laws come into being in a democratic republic.

_Current _laws are the laws that are enforced in the present. That is a fact. Current laws are the only set of laws for which "equal protection" is guaranteed at any given moment in time. That is a fact.. You refuse to acknowledge that two people of the same sex, _*regardless*_ of sexual orientation, cannot get married. If it isn't current laws that gays want changed - _WHAT,_ pray tell, is it they want? IF and when marriage laws are changed such that same sex is legal, THEN it will be the law. Should we ignore the process by which laws are enacted so that the "more equals" can dictate?? Again, _hello_ Nazi Germany. 

_If_ (I don't know) there is no law that specifically addresses "sexual orientation" in hiring and firing practices - then there is no current law. Again, laws in the US are _enacted,_ not dictated. 


The pink triangle is not my country's history - quite the opposite. This country was hardly an ally of Nazi Germany and Nazi Germany was hardly a democratic republic. 


The disparity thing. 
IMO the disparity in education, income, yada, yada is for the most part a result of political pandering to "groups" (advocating individualism would undermine their career prospects) and education (_not_ the money spent on educaton, but rather _what_ is taught). For "disadvantaged" groups, much of the percieved disparity is a direct result of pandering, disingenuous, opportunistic "civil rights leaders" and politicians. The message seems to be, you need lots, and lots, and lots of help b/c you are inferior and unable to make it w/o help. Talk about racism at its worst!!!

Education is of no value when one is taught nothing but the "opinions" of the current "rulers of education". For example, MANY democrats are unaware that the democratic party rose to power on the "pro-slavery" platform. When enlightened, they say "ah, they changed". And this changes the fact they were not taught this FACT in school, how? One does not master critical thinking skills nor the insight that "true" history brings by listening to meaningless politically motivated "opinions" of others. AND, we are told it is "education" that is a problem for some ethnic groups when in fact more money is poured on them b/c they ARE in a given ethnic group (remember, they need more help). But, the pandering powers to be don't want you to see the man behind the money curtain...they just demand you agree so they can stay in power and spend more money.

One group consistantly has a super high rate of children born out of wedlock. And, their caring political leaders respond how? Blame other groups - need more money. It's job security.

If _all_ people were given back their dignity and treated as an individual on an individual basis and held responsible for their own personal actions...there would soon be little to no measurable disparity among races in the US!

And, as far as disparity goes, there is no shortage of statistical techniques, none of which is "proven" to produce the truth for all sets of data to which they are applied, all of which are chosen by the user. What, pray tell, are the statistics for the percentage of middle class members of each "group" since, oh...say, 1962, 50 years?


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

For those who are interested, the swastika was a symbol used in Indian culture and adopted by cowboys. Below is a pair of swastika chap that was sold on ebay. It truly is rare as most were destroyed when we entered WWII. Before then, it was quite common on cowboy gear, belts, saddles, saddle pads, chaps, etc,.

N. PORTER - PHOENIX, ARIZONA SWASTIKA SPOTTED BATWING CHAPS | eBay


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Horse Poor said:


> For those who are interested, the swastika was a symbol used in Indian culturehttp://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAP...AnD2iFE%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc#ht_720wt_1398


I've heard about it in a past as well.


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

dbarabians said:


> Missy May the pink triangle is not promoting Nazi propaganda.
> It is reminding people that gays were persecuted and put to death solely for who they were. The same as Jews, Gypsys, mentally and physically, handicapped.
> When the camps were liberated and the survivors were free the men wearing pink triangles were still held in captivity.
> It is now used as an international symbol for the gay community for empowerment and solidarity.
> ...


Excuse me? I don't presume to tell you how you should post, why do you feel the need to tell me how I should post. You know what, don't even bother answering. I'll save the mods, you and any members who might be offended if I don't post exactly the way you deem fit, the trouble. 

Put a fork in me, I'M DONE!


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## SouthernTrails (Dec 19, 2008)

kitten_Val said:


> Then polygamy should be allowed as well based on what you are saying.


Can I Marry my Horse? :lol:




.... JK :wink:




.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

SouthernTrailsGA said:


> Can I Marry my Horse? :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Well, he is awful cute...has he asked you yet?


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## SouthernTrails (Dec 19, 2008)

Missy May said:


> Well, he is awful cute...has he asked you yet?


He is a She ...lol....

Too young, only a 5 YO Belgian 


.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

SouthernTrailsGA said:


> Can I Marry my Horse? :lol:


Not so sure about marrying part, but I'd LOVE to put my cats, dogs, and horses as my dependents on tax return!


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> Allison, could you give the examples, please? I don't remember seeing on TV that certain color is better.


Watch all of the ads. You will see thin, pale, long sleek haired actresses being held up as the most attractive. You will see caucasians continually being held up as the best, smartest, most attractive, most promising everywhere. It is uncommon to see ads that hold AA's up as much. I find this unsettling.

Yes, there are some programs for AA's. But so many of them are sitcoms that, while maybe trying to make fun of stereotypes, actually serve to perpetuate them. many of these programs I find offensive in their flip use of stereotypes.

Small children, who are watching this, cannot help but be influenced by seeing this.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

As a therapist I ask a lot of people about their beliefs and why they believe them.
I do this to understand their point of view.
My words of caution on the replies to the question I asked about the disparity of minorities to whites, as just that a word of caution.
I do not presume to prevent anyone from posting what they think.
I was hoping that the reponses would give me insight into why some do not see the issue of racism as a big problem in the minority community.
Missy May the pink triangle is an international symbol of the gay comuunity.
It was reclaimed from Nazi Germany and is now used as a symbol of empowerment.
The young black girls were asked several questions about the attractiveness of the dolls, which one they thought would be more honest, more intelligent, was happier, etc.
The majority of the young black girls picked the white dolls as the more desirable and intelligent onews.
The study showed that advertisements and mas media overwhelmingly portray whites as more affluent, smarter, more honest, and happier.

Shalom


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Allison Finch said:


> Watch all of the ads. You will see thin, pale, long sleek haired actresses being held up as the most attractive.


Unfortunately it's equally applicable not to just color of the skin, but weight as well then. Meaning they are discriminating all those with normal or over weight (true in fashion world as well).

BTW, I just watched the TV in dr's office other day (as usually I don't watch at all), and I have to say there were black and white women in ads, some are not very thin.  So may be depends on channel?


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

kitten_Val said:


> Unfortunately it's equally applicable not to just color of the skin, but weight as well then. Meaning they are discriminating all those with normal or over weight (true in fashion world as well).
> 
> BTW, I just watched the TV in dr's office other day (as usually I don't watch at all), and I have to say there were black and white women in ads, some are not very thin.  So may be depends on channel?


Good point about the weight. I do not watch TV on purpose...ever. So, I can't comment on the race in ads thing. But, I am sure they do discriminate against people of normal and above weight. 

On-line ads do not appear disproportionately white, at all. But they,too, appear to favor thin.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Missy May said:


> On-line ads do not appear disproportionately white, at all. But they,too, appear to favor thin.


Frankly, I don't even pay attention on what color the person is and whether she's thin/heavy in advertisements (I usually switch a channel when ads starts). The only reason I looked up yesterday is because of this discussion.  

However even though they discriminate on weight/body build pretty much everywhere (TV, journals, Internet), I definitely haven't noticed people (and kids) trying hard to follow those "thin" standards. So to me it's quite a lame argument that kids try to follow the canons of beauty based solely on advertisements and fashion journals. May be some, but not the majority from what I see.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

kitten_Val said:


> Frankly, I don't even pay attention on what color the person is and whether she's thin/heavy in advertisements (I usually switch a channel when ads starts). The only reason I looked up yesterday is because of this discussion.
> 
> However even though they discriminate on weight/body build pretty much everywhere (TV, journals, Internet), I definitely haven't noticed people (and kids) trying hard to follow those "thin" standards. So to me it's quite a lame argument that kids try to follow the canons of beauty based solely on advertisements and fashion journals. May be some, but not the majority from what I see.


I agree. One also has to consider proportionate representation of races relative to overall population. Whereas, you and I know the weight of models does not reflect the overall population. I am w you - I do not think it has an affect.

I don't know. In my experience, most school kids have friends of of various ethnic and race groups and do not talk about this stuff. In fact, they seem to find the entire "subject" something that only fossils (people over 30 :wink talk about...akin to discussing "canning tomatoes", or something. Which reenforces my belief that a majority of the "issues" are fabricated for personal/political gain.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Lets not even discuss size discrimination? That is a whole other subject.
That truly needs to be addressed.
People that will never use a racially offensive word have no trouble saying ridiculous things about people with weight issues.
Missy May and Kitten val, the times have indeed changed and for the better.
Todays young people are very race neutral.
that however does not discount the 400+ years of segregation, slavery, lynching, and abuse minorities have endured in this country.
Those effects will linger for a couple of more generations.
Something ingrained in our soceity for so long doesn't just disapear.
Thankfully progress is being made. Shalom


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

dbarabians said:


> People that will never use a racially offensive word have no trouble saying ridiculous things about people with weight issues.


Donald, that's not a discrimination - that's a pure rudeness. People say ridiculous things about appearance all the time - not just weight, but haircuts, length of the legs, size of the butt, you name it.  I had this nasty experience back at school as a teenager (I was on "chubby" side), so I have immunity.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

It is still trying to alienate a section of our population by those who are deemed desirabale.
Trying to make yourself feel or look better by putting someone else down is sad. Those doing so have very low selfesteem. And it shows. Shalom


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