# Reluctant Hamlet



## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Elsewhere I have been describing Hamlet's recent reluctance to go out on the trail, and I think it's now time to get some additional advice from y'all. I will be as concise as possible in describing the problem, the context, and what I have tried so far. 

The problem: After a short distance away from the barn, Hamlet tries its darndest to do a 180º and go home.

Further specifics: Once I turn him around (after picking a moment where he doesn't pull) he walks home on the buckle - no jigging, no running. There were zero spooks about anything on that ride, neither on the way out nor home. He is not buddy sour - he currently lives with the minis, and when my wife took them out for a bit of grazing, and I took him separately, he could not care less about following them, as long as he got a good spot of grass.

History of the problem: In hindsight, this issue has always existed, but now has a higher impact. At the previous barn, all my trails were loops, and he always tried to take shortcuts home when he recognized a turn. When I didn't allow this, he soon settled into the trail that we were taking instead, without further fight - most likely because he recognized that trail too as "the way home". It never arose to an issue I'd think about addressing - it was like a lesson horse bulging his shoulder into the middle of the arena "just because": You just correct it and go on with your ride.

What I've started doing: I left the gate to the outdoor arena open for easy access and, 5 or 6 times, hustled him around in there for a few minutes before taking him back out on a loose rein. This was based on Warwick Schiller's "Why it's important to let the horse win." I have also started (on the last round yesterday) to send him forward at the trot when he got strong on me at the walk.

Why I'm still concerned: Unlike the horse in Warwick's story, Hamlet didn't show any haste in going back home once he was pointed that way. I'm concerned that I may not have found the correct "currency" yet, and that doing more of the same thing will not bring any changes in outcome. I also want to avoid a situation where simply sending him forward masks a build-up in stress level, so it's kind of important to me that his mind is with me when I ride out. I don't want the entire ride to consist of overriding him. 

So, is this a

- laziness issue (addressed by making being at the barn uncomfortable by making him work there, use the trail to relax - classic Clinton Anderson), but that didn't show much effect;
- desensitization issue ("Ohmygodohmygodwearegoingawayfromhome!"), but then he'd actually hurry and jig on the way out AND the way home. If the place is scary, it's scary no matter where your nose points, no?
- insubordination issue ("Don't tell me where to go! I'll tell you where to go!"), but when I work him in the arena, he reacts to aids in a split second without fussing

Any ideas?


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

You are a more experienced rider than I am, so you've probably already thought of or tried this, but how about just asking him to go a little farther along each day? Maybe the first day of this program you could even turn around before he starts getting worried. Maybe mixed in with a cookie or two, or some other kind of treat, when you're pushing him out of his comfort zone and he does well?

I hope that makes sense -- I have not had any coffee yet...


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

ACinATX said:


> You are a more experienced rider than I am, so you've probably already thought of or tried this, but how about just asking him to go a little farther along each day?


That's exactly what I'd do (and have done) with a horse that is reluctant to go forward. I have done this with a horse at my first barn (Gershwin): The first time I "rode" him solo we barely made it to the end of the driveway. But he was nervous and it showed - it took a lot of convincing to make him do a few more steps so I could turn him and take him back home. Ultimately, we did go on a few hourlong solo trail rides together.

Hamlet shows no such type of fearful hesitation. I can make him trot away from the barn - as long as I keep him between my hands and legs...


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

Your horse may not be "buddy" sour but he sure sounds "barn" sour to me...
He doesn't have to jig or prance, move faster when headed home...
But he has reluctance to leave, but once past a certain point is not problem..

Try riding him out and turn him back just before he gets "attitude"...
Then when partway back turn him back out to the trail...
The secret to this is it is you who determines when to turn and do it before he fusses...
Keep Hamlet guessing...
Each time you extend the distance, make several short forays instead of a long one...
_But you always are the one calling the shot of what is to occur._
He only goes home when _*you *_are ready...

I don't agree that when arriving back at the barn is the time to work them hard or long as punishment either.
They _don't_ remember their transgressions so to them, to come home after being ridden on the trail it is just work, not something connected...
If the horse disrespects or gives attitude on the trail, _it is right there on the trail the issue needs addressed_ as best you can with what you can do to make their transgression understood that to do so will make you work harder right at that instant than that quiet walk through the trails would of afforded.

But I see your issue as barn sour a horse...
:runninghorse2:...


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

Hmm. How about temporarily "bitting up" then? Just long enough to get him out of the habit?


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

horselovinguy said:


> Your horse may not be "buddy" sour but he sure sounds "barn" sour to me...
> He doesn't have to jig or prance, move faster when headed home...
> But he has reluctance to leave, but once past a certain point is not problem..
> 
> ...


I did try the "turn back before he gets attitude", only instead of turning him back out, I rode him past the barn to the opposite side. So yes, I'll try that. I like the "keep him guessing", because I did notice his propensity to anticipate and pre-empt. I should add a fourth option to what I wrote in my original post, namely that he's genuinely trying to pre-empt the next step in the ride; so yes, I'll definitely keep him on his toes on the next ride.

As for the "making him work at the barn" – that's not supposed to be punishment for past transgressions, that's just supposed to make the barn a less attractive place to return to. Instead of, "*each time* I get to the barn, the saddle comes off, I get to stuff my face and rest", that guarantee doesn't exist anymore. He *may* get all of that, but he also *may* work some more, and he doesn't know when. It's just like your "keep him guessing." It's most definitely not a correction of any sort.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

ACinATX said:


> Hmm. How about temporarily "bitting up" then? Just long enough to get him out of the habit?


Nah, I don't see how that might address his mindset. He's not blowing through the reins, it's just that I need to work way too hard to keep him between my hands and legs, because that head tries to whip around all the time. He has yet to manage to turn on me without my letting him, but I hate that constant fighting. I need his mind...


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

Ah, yes, OK, I understand. What you need to do is make it more enjoyable for him to be out there, so he wants to go. I return to my idea of treats. Or how about stopping to let him graze for a while at some point? I guess where you are there isn't any grazing right now, but could you take a smallish bag of alfalfa hay or some other nice hay and stop and let him eat it? Is there anything else he enjoys doing that you could do while out there?


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

ACinATX said:


> Hmm. How about temporarily "bitting up" then? Just long enough to get him out of the habit?


Why???
What has he done that requires a stronger bit to be applied in his mouth?
Hamlet has not done anything where needing more is necessary actually...well, not in his mouth.
He needs more leg, more mindset of we are leaving by his rider but he is not spinning, bolting and grabbing and running away or toward in his case that stronger mouth hardware might be a necessary evil.

To me "bitting up" is giving him a associated crutch in his brain... association of bit to job at hand does work.
Let him not associate being belligerent with a bit..but that he must ride the same no matter the bit he carries..{did that make sense?}

"- insubordination issue ("Don't tell me where to go! I'll tell you where to go!"), but when I work him in the arena, he reacts to aids in a split second without fussing"
This to me could be attributed to he is on alert to all things different than what is normal when working in a safe ring...
He is on sensory overload and hence not as tuned in to just you...but to all things surrounding him.
The fight/flight mechanism is never far from the surface on any alert horse...
I would rather though a thinking horse who is alert but going forward with relaxation than the spinning/whirling, bolting and lost my mind stupid horse sometimes seen and hopefully we never have to deal with ourselves.
Hamlet sounds to me more a thinking horse than a reactive one....
:runninghorse2:...
_jmo..._


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## AndyTheCornbread (Feb 3, 2019)

Destination addiction is what it sounds like to me. Find where he wants to go and work him there, small circles at the trot or lope until you feel him start asking for a break by running his shoulder out toward the trail or making like he wants to go somewhere other than the circle. When he does this let him trot or walk that way out on the trail on a loose rein. Let him go as far as he will down the trail until he wants to stop and rest. So long as he stops facing away from the place he wants to be let him rest a good while there. Then ask him to walk on a loose rein, if he turns and heads back let him go, as soon as he gets back put him in small circles at the trot or lope. If he doesn't take the offered rest and turns and heads back let him go home and then as soon as you get within sight of where he wants to be trot or lope him there and put him in small circles again until he wants to leave. Keep repeating this until he will head down the trail on a loose rein on his own. Start this early in a day when you have all day to work on this if needed. Keep doing the work / rest thing until he wants to be out on the trail and not home. Once he is over wanting to go home ride him out on the trail to about the 1/3 mark and then get off and let him graze. Then get back on and keep heading away from home rest him again at the halfway point and let him graze with you off his back. Then ride him home with no breaks or rest. You need to make him understand that where you want him to be is easier than where he wants to be so that going out on the trail becomes his idea and he wants to be there not back at the barn.

It might take several days in a row of doing this to get him further and further down the trail but if you do it right you could have this fixed fairly quickly.


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## AndyTheCornbread (Feb 3, 2019)

I found a really good example of doing this on Warwick Schiller's video site. If you have a subscription to that site use the search function to find the video called: "Solving barn sourness African style".


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Use the trail as a reward. Work on the arena(not just a warm up), then go out. I will work a horse back at the barn who is antsy coming home, and then go back out and repeat if necessary.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

He needs to make the choice, and be ALLOWED to make the choice, that brings him into the place that doesn't work so well.


So, he rides out, and not so far along, he does something that indicates he'd rather go home. LET HIM. let him go all the way home, and then start the work. Then head out, and let him choose. 



this training only really works if the horse had made the choice that lead to things not working out so well. If you just take him over to the gate and start working him hard there, it does not create the connection that when he chooses to go home, and gets there, it only results in work.


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## AndyTheCornbread (Feb 3, 2019)

tinyliny said:


> He needs to make the choice, and be ALLOWED to make the choice, that brings him into the place that doesn't work so well.
> 
> 
> So, he rides out, and not so far along, he does something that indicates he'd rather go home. LET HIM. let him go all the way home, and then start the work. Then head out, and let him choose.
> ...


^This 100%.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

tinyliny said:


> He needs to make the choice, and be ALLOWED to make the choice, that brings him into the place that doesn't work so well.
> 
> So, he rides out, and not so far along, he does something that indicates he'd rather go home. LET HIM. let him go all the way home, and then start the work. Then head out, and let him choose.
> 
> this training only really works if the horse had made the choice that lead to things not working out so well. If you just take him over to the gate and start working him hard there, it does not create the connection that when he chooses to go home, and gets there, it only results in work.


Uhm, that's exactly what I did, which is why I referenced W. Schiller's video in my OP, where he gives that very advice.

So far, it may have resulted in him not _rushing_ home anymore, but it still did nothing to quench his desire to _want_ to go home.

A concern is: If horses cannot connect corrections with behavior that happened too long ago, how can they connect behavior to consequences that are too far in the future? After all, if he turns around 10-15 minutes out, it's another 10-15 minutes back, so he may associate approaching the farm with "there'll be some sweatin' now", but that doesn't help me at the time he starts wanting to turn.

I'm still going to work him once we get back to the farm, before getting off and taking the saddle off, but I'll first try the "keep him guessing" approach that @horselovinguy recommended. He's great at anticipating, he's great at picking up on patterns and routines, so I need to throw him off his game so he tunes in to my aids rather than coming up with his own plans on how to conduct the ride efficiently, even if it results in a/some horribly tedious ride(s). I'll keep him calm, turn him around before he gets "turny", but don't go all the way home and turn him around again and go a bit farther, turn him around again, etc.; and see if I can build up the distance from the farm until he gets antsy.

It's still a good idea to make _the end of the ride_ at the farm "less comfortable", but doing this repeatedly throughout the ride has not brought any visible improvement to the behavioral pattern. And trust me, he did not have an easy ride when I took him to the arena. According to CA, hustling him and "changing directions" frequently is particularly bothersome to horses, so we did that a lot...


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

I'm not a trainer so always hesitate to weigh in on this stuff. But, I have been where you are and have also found the "work hard at the barn" approach makes absolutely no difference when the horse wants to be home and doesn't mind working as much as (s)he minds being out alone. I don't know about the "work them hard" people, but there's really no way I can physically work my youngish, fit horse hard enough that they think they are being punished. :shrug:

A lot of people will disagree with this, but would he be any better if you rode out with other horses? I know the idea is that you want him to "get his courage" from you rather than rely on other horses for comfort/confidence, but I have personally found with my one "sticky" horse that riding out with another horse sometimes changes things up enough that it's almost like a reset- I've never had trouble riding out alone again after having a few positive rides out with others. Like you, I almost always ride alone, so having a horse that can't go solo isn't an option. But for me, when I'm in a rut like this, I know I am not a skilled enough rider to "push reset" without some help that distracts me as much as the horse. You are a far better and more confident rider than me, so that might not be relevant. But just throwing that out there since no one else has mentioned it. Another reset option for me when there's no one to ride with me is a long in-hand walk- as in, 3-4 miles of me walking the horse from the ground like a dog a couple of times, which is extraordinarily boring for the horse since I have very short legs and, while I am a fast walker, I'm still a short human that makes a horse go slower than she wants. Riding seems much more fun after that! It almost doesn't matter _what _the reset is, as long as it happens.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I thought you had just taken him to the gate and worked him, without him having tried to go back. my bad.


Maybe allow him to turn for home, ask him to immediately start moving along and kind of hassle him a bit. turn him in a few circles, bump his sides but every time you turn to the 'good' direction, you stop all pressure. Is there room on your trails to do that?


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Riding out with another horse will totally solve the problem, as long as you have the other horse along.

If you are getting him to go at all, and if he is not bolting insanely toward the barn, I would say that you are doing pretty good. Ride him about on about 200 more rides, and he will be fine. 

I have been riding on a regular basis for over 50 years. (Of course I started riding before I was conceived. I also lie about my weight.)

I have trained, ridden, and outlived a lot of horses. Most of them were hesitant to leave the barn alone at some point in their training. It is a rare gem that goes out alone in a new place without hesitating or spooking or doing something wacky.

You are doing things right. Just keep it up. When you get him totally straightened out, come to Georgia. I have a horse or two I will let you ride several hundred times on solo rides...........


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I agree with Celeste. I guess I just don't see the issue? Isn't it normal for horses to want to go home and try to get there if left to their own devices? Maybe I am just at the low-end of the horse market (which I am!). 

The mare I am riding now, and I consider her an AWESOME trail horse, will definitely try to turn for home at various points in the ride if I don't keep my heel and reins on her. Pretty much anytime we are parallel to home and she thinks we might be turning. :biglaugh: 

But she goes out alone, rarely spooks, gaits like a dream and pretty much does whatever I want her to. She just is drawn like a magnet towards home. As long as she goes where I want when I want, and pretty much walks home (sometimes she can't help herself and jigs if she hasn't been out for a while) I can live with that and be happy with her. Actually, I'm very happy with her. 

Out of all the horses I've ridden over the years, I only had ONE that was in no hurry to get home. He was a foal that I raised and really seemed to like exploring the trails and never sped up even when turning for home. He was also spooky and I ended up rehoming him. :icon_frown: But that was the one and only horse I ever had that never even walked quicker towards home, or seemed drawn to it in any way. Every other horse, even if obedient and safe, would at least walk quicker towards home or try to turn towards home at available opportunities.

I'm working on getting my mare to WALK towards home after much of the winter off. We are getting there! So if your guy is walking, I wouldn't worry too much about the turning as long as he listens to you and doesn't actually blow through your aids. They do love "home."


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

trailhorserider said:


> I agree with Celeste. I guess I just don't see the issue? Isn't it normal for horses to want to go home and try to get there if left to their own devices? Maybe I am just at the low-end of the horse market (which I am!).


It's a recently occurring behavior, and after a while he's getting rather "insistent" in his efforts. I'd rather not spend the entire ride correcting him. It makes life (the ride) miserable for both of us, and him even more reluctant to go out. On the "annoying" scale, it's a little like him trying to stop every 10 paces to try to graze.

It's not the attempts I object to, it's the "not taking 'No' for an answer."


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

tinyliny said:


> Maybe allow him to turn for home, ask him to immediately start moving along and kind of hassle him a bit. turn him in a few circles, bump his sides but every time you turn to the 'good' direction, you stop all pressure. Is there room on your trails to do that?


That's a tricky one, because once he turns, he actually doesn't jig or try to speed (anymore), so I'd rather not introduce "speed" in that direction. What I have started doing is to tell him to speed up AWAY from the barn when he tries to turn around.

I also do not treat every attempt at "not remaining straight" as an offense. He really needs to try to whip his head around for me to start leaning on them...otherwise I "ask" him to stay straight with soft rein signals and slight leg pressure. It tends to work until it doesn't...that is how I get 10-15 mins away from home without drama.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Maybe you could take him on some group rides to build his confidence.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

I've also commonly seen this issue, even in horses that were not herd bound. Sometimes it's a matter of reluctance to go out until reaching a certain point, maybe once out of sight, earshot or smelling distance of the barn/home.

What happens after that varies from horse to horse. Some will remain slower paced/reluctant until turning back for home, others will be fine once they get a distance from home and are committed mentally to the ride. Some will try to rush faster toward home.

Something I've found is that minor things will contribute quite a bit to this problem. Such as a saddle that doesn't fit well, hooves that are tender on rocks, any soreness, hunger, etc. I've seen horses become no longer reluctant once a minor issue was fixed. It makes sense, because instinct would make a horse less likely to want to leave the safety of home if not feeling 100%.

I'll agree that if you do block the horse from trying to turn back home over the course of a few rides, it should diminish and eventually disappear. 
You can also work on the underlying issue, which if it is not related to some discomfort is most likely due to either insecurity or just not having enough of a positive idea of going out.

For insecurity, just adding experience will be helpful. As others have said, adding a horse buddy will help teach that the environment is safe, or if that isn't possible just getting off and leading the horse through the section where he feels insecure can help. 

If he's just feeling that home is a positive place and away is not positive, you could simply ride slightly past where he wants to turn around and find a nice place to sit on him while he grazes. Riding toward good grazing is an easy way to get horses to think positively about leaving the barn. Then later you can teach them that where they might graze is up to you, and they won't know where or when this positive action might occur.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Celeste said:


> Maybe you could take him on some group rides to build his confidence.


I think horses suck at transferring from one experience to another, which is why they happily rifle through a plastic bag with carrots lying on the ground, but flee in terror if that same plastic bag is empty and gets picked up by the wind... If you want them not to be afraid of a fluttering plastic bag, it's gotta flutter when you expose them to it in a desensitization session, if you get my analogy.

It's not like with humans: If you can swim in the deep end of a pool, you _know_ you can swim in a lake just as well. If a horse accepts a stimulus with the right side of his brain, it's not even guaranteed it will do so with the left.

Moreover, I don't see how the group ride will be a more effective learning experience for him than "Going to scary place X three times and returning safely home each time."


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

gottatrot said:


> For insecurity, just adding experience will be helpful. As others have said, adding a horse buddy will help teach that the environment is safe, or if that isn't possible just getting off and leading the horse through the section where he feels insecure can help.


But I don't think this is an issue, because a scary location, or a location that provides discomfort, remains so no matter which way your nose is pointed. However, he's not at all trying to "get out of here" when he's homewards bound.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

This is interesting, because since he isn’t wound up after the turn I can see why working him at home doesn’t necessarily handle the situation. Also, you tried consistently, and if it didn’t make a difference then you need to find another tool. 

I’m not exactly sure what I would do, because I don’t know the horse. I don’t know if spinning him a time or two when he wanted to turn around would help or create a bigger issue. What I probably would try first would be going faster down the trail on the way out. If he was loping straight down the trail he might not even think about turning around.

Good luck on fixing it! He does sound like a nice horse.


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

I find this happens a lot with horses that are ridden near home. They figure out pretty quickly that riding out means work - even if it is slow work. still work. Some horses are just naturally more lazy than others and prefer to stay at home. I think you are doing everything right in order to correct this. That being said you may never make Hamlet into a horse that looks forward to the ride out away from the barn. He may always have to be gently reminded that his job is to be ridden. Some horses more naturally enjoy being ridden out - and he may not be one of them


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## AndyTheCornbread (Feb 3, 2019)

If you ride out 100 yards from the barn and then put him on a loose rein and just ask him to walk, without giving direction as to where to walk, will he keep going down the trail or will he turn and head for home if you give him completely free rein and just ask for the walk without asking for a direction?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

mmshiro said:


> That's a tricky one, because once he turns, he actually doesn't jig or try to speed (anymore), so I'd rather not introduce "speed" in that direction. What I have started doing is to tell him to speed up AWAY from the barn when he tries to turn around.
> 
> I also do not treat every attempt at "not remaining straight" as an offense. He really needs to try to whip his head around for me to start leaning on them...otherwise I "ask" him to stay straight with soft rein signals and slight leg pressure. It tends to work until it doesn't...that is how I get 10-15 mins away from home without drama.





The horse I lease doesn't want to go out and work. We ride at the same location, and have done so for years. He balks going up the driveway, and he asks to take the side of every split in the trail that will go in the direction of home. If I stop him, to hear birdsong, perhaps, he will try to sneak in a turn for home, just in case that's what I really wanted. Once we actually DO turn for home, all such behavior ceases.


I don't make him go home and work him there. I do as you are doing; I use rein and leg to return him to the direction I'm wanting to go. And, I ask him to move forward, and if he sulks backward, physically or mentally, I swish him up with raised energy, with a flutter of legs, or a verbal hiss, or a light slap of the rein ends against his neck, such that he commits his energy in MY direction and gives up that backward thought.


This works for him becaue he never gets really stuck in wanting to go back, and never treats me to any 'drama' with that desire. And, he is old and set in his ways, and I'm not going to change him at this point. We just go along and get along. It can work, too.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

My guess is that your horse isn't afraid, or in pain, he just isn't part of the trail team. Yet. He doesn't find being with only you, safe enough when out in the world, to want to keep doing it. On the trail, I have not found "making him work harder" is any kind of useful training tool for me. Wet saddle blankets are the answer to a lot of this type of question, I think. 

My horse has been ridden alone about 80% of her rides. Especially after a long hiatus, she will go out with reluctance, dragging her feet (not literally), finding slightly-moved objects an excuse to stop dead and try to turn around, until the force-field of home is weak enough that she quite suddenly takes a big interest in her surroundings and starts stepping out smartly. Maybe you just need to go out farther -- a lot farther -- until he isn't so sure where home even is anymore. And getting far enough afield might be a struggle at first. But if you keep doing it, it will probably get easier. "It takes as long as it takes". The lesson in the middle is "we aren't trail riding, we are working on obedience and forward motion". 

Depending on the horse, and the weather, a light swat on the rear can convince them to knock off the nonsense, or turn them into an astronaut. Don't know which yours would be. It works for Brooke when she is just being lazy or stubborn. Real bad idea if she is nervous.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I wish I COULD go far enough from home that X doesn't know exactly where we are in relation to home. the few times I've hitched a ride on a trailer, he was very brave out on the trail. He's such a good boy!


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

I don't think that my horse is capable of getting lost. She always knows where home is. That is very fortunate for me because I have been known to get lost.


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## AndyTheCornbread (Feb 3, 2019)

Other than what I described before I have used one other trick that helped with a horse who liked to try to 180 out. I parked my truck and trailer way up in BFE behind my place and had someone give me a ride out. I saddled the horse and rode it a long ways through the mountains behind my place until I reached the trailer and then I brushed it, fed it and put it in the trailer and trailer-ed it home. If you do this enough times the horse starts to think the end of the ride could be anywhere and stops looking to go home all the time by doing a 180 on you. I find it is easier to work on destination addiction in an arena or close to the house though. You have to be sensitive to small things like running out of the shoulder etc. if you are going to do it in an arena so you know when to work and when to rest but the trailering home trick did work for that horse, it is just kind of a pain in the backside because you have to get somebody to bring you back to where your horse is in another vehicle unless you take a bike or ATV with you in the truck. If you use this trick, remember not to forget your truck keys when you go on the ride to the trailer


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Took him out today, but hand-walked him. I basically followed @horselovinguy 's recommendation, with two additions: grazing and a bit of grain. I could do this because I was on the ground, but I don't want him to associate riding with eating...that'd open another can of worms. So here we went:

- Walk out for a good bit. Pick a moment of relaxation, turn him back partway to the farm.
- Turn him around again, away from the barn, walk a bit farther.
- Repeat two or three times until it becomes apparent that he's getting more antsy, and the "calm" moments harder to catch.
- Stop for grazing in two or three spots at the farthest point, give him a handful of grain. (I put it on the ground so he associates the location with goodies, not me.)
- Repeat procedure on the way home: turn him back away from the farm at random times, pick the moment after he took a few steps without fuss and turn him back towards home...walk a bit closer to home each time.

This should have confused any pattern and anticipation and made the "far away" spot a positive one to hang out. I needed very few corrections, though he was a bit ticked off when I turned him around after we already reached his pasture fence...  Worked through that, and I hope he picked up the lesson.

Will try again tomorrow or the day after tomorrow and see what, if anything, changed in his attitude...then try in the saddle on the weekend.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

mmshiro said:


> I think horses suck at transferring from one experience to another, which is why they happily rifle through a plastic bag with carrots lying on the ground, but flee in terror if that same plastic bag is empty and gets picked up by the wind... If you want them not to be afraid of a fluttering plastic bag, it's gotta flutter when you expose them to it in a desensitization session, if you get my analogy.
> 
> It's not like with humans: If you can swim in the deep end of a pool, you _know_ you can swim in a lake just as well. If a horse accepts a stimulus with the right side of his brain, it's not even guaranteed it will do so with the left.
> 
> Moreover, I don't see how the group ride will be a more effective learning experience for him than "Going to scary place X three times and returning safely home each time."



Horses do suck at transferring one experience to another. You are correct there. I still find that a horse that has been on many rides with another horse is easier to train to leave the barn. Maybe it divides the lesson into two parts.

Part 1: This trail is pretty cool. 

Part 2: Maybe I won't die out here on my own.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

mmshiro said:


> Took him out today, but hand-walked him. I basically followed @horselovinguy 's recommendation, with two additions: grazing and a bit of grain. I could do this because I was on the ground, but I don't want him to associate riding with eating...that'd open another can of worms. So here we went:
> 
> - Walk out for a good bit. Pick a moment of relaxation, turn him back partway to the farm.
> - Turn him around again, away from the barn, walk a bit farther.
> ...


Do the same thing when you are riding him, including stopping, getting off, and having a bite to eat. 

Making the ride pleasurable, and not repeating the tug-of-war you have been doing up until now, will make the experience a positive one.

There is no harm in walking for a bit during a trail ride, and there is no harm in using treats/food as a reward for good behavior. Best to "catch him being good" then allow the habits you don't like to continue. 

Old saying is true, "You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar"


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Quite honestly I would just correct him by turning him back on himself and giving him a hard boot to send him on his way. 

To me he isn't being really barn sour but questioning/testing the rider.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Foxhunter said:


> Quite honestly I would just correct him by turning him back on himself and giving him a hard boot to send him on his way.
> 
> To me he isn't being really barn sour but questioning/testing the rider.


That may well be the case, but I took him out today by hand again, and (due to high winds) he showed some nervousness, but no real strong tendency to fly home as though attracted by a strong horsey magnet. We had a nice walk with lots of grazing, lots of zig-zagging, lots of turning-around at random times, and no drama ensued. So when I ride him on the weekend and he reverts to this behavior, I will know you were right -- and address it accordingly.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

If a horse turned for home as Hamlet did with you, I would never even think about letting him go back and working him at home. I would automatically correct and ride on. 

Horses will try things on, and, as I say often, correct the little things and the big things rarely happen. What he did was a minor thing, giving him the right to turn back and then working him is basically giving him his own way even if it means more work. 

As for being windy, that has never stopped me from riding them out and about.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Foxhunter said:


> If a horse turned for home as Hamlet did with you, I would never even think about letting him go back and working him at home. I would automatically correct and ride on.
> 
> Horses will try things on, and, as I say often, correct the little things and the big things rarely happen. What he did was a minor thing, giving him the right to turn back and then working him is basically giving him his own way even if it means more work.
> 
> As for being windy, that has never stopped me from riding them out and about.


My initial approach was a hybrid approach. When he attempted to turn around, I did correct him and kept him straight, so we only turned home on my cue. Obviously, working him at home is way too long after the event to serve as a correction, but it does serve to throw him off his anticipation that "back home" means "monkey off my back".

He does have a history of being immensely nervous at a new place: The first two days, I could barely take him to the opposite side of the outdoor arena (on the outside) without him snorting, huffing, jumping, etc. Then, too, I made sure I only allowed him to return once he stopped making drama. 

I can't be riding him as though his trying to turn back was exclusively an act of defiance when in actuality there is an underlying anxiety. With any desensitizing, you want to expose them to the stimulus to get a response and not take it to the point where you have a fight-or-flight reaction. Safety first! 

In any case, yesterday he showed no particular distress about being where he was, on the way out or on the way home, so I'll feel more comfortable now to have him toe the line. Last time I rode him, I had good results with just pushing him up to a trot when he wanted to turn (he never actually managed to complete a 180º against me) and try one more time at the walk after a dozen paces or so. Now I know I can do this without anything building up in his little mind that may blow up on me.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

A worry gut horse or human will build something minor into something major if they are allowed to. 

A horse that is spooky and snorting will get a hard boot to say, "Hey, listen to me. I am in charge and if I say it is OK then it is. Behave yourself!"

99% of the time they just accept and move on. 

The old fashioned way of dealing with a hysterical person was to slap them across the face to slap them out of it. It worked. Now, it is called a panic attack and slapping them would create a lawsuit! 

A year back there was a teen girl having a panic attack in the High Street. Her mother and another woman were trying to placate her soothingly. 
The girl was hyperventilating and getting worse. As I approached I couldn't help but say, in my most determined voice, "Stop this nonsense immediately!" 
She held her breath for a couple of seconds looked at me with shock but then was breathing normally as they all watched me walk on. 

I just laughed to myself.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

So...I know you were all distracted from your own rides, wondering how my ride today would be going.

The plan was to ride the same route that I had problems with, and that I had been working on as indicated above. The strategy was to give him maximum release as long as he behaved like a normal horsey. In other words, I wouldn't ask him to do gratuitous things and stay off the aids as long as he remains reasonable - to heighten the contrast between the release he gets when he behaves and the hell fire that rains down when he's being an idiot.

On the way out, he walked nicely. He looked around quite a bit, but I'm used to that. As long as the shoulders didn't move, I just reminded him with a gentle rein tug to keep his eyes on where he's stepping next. The shoulders actually did move two or three times, but I was able to shut him down with a firm press of the calf - and he took No! for an answer! There was no need to escalate! I pushed him back into alignment, and he kept walking...looking left, right, straight. In hindsight, he was no more "looky" on the way out than he was on the way home.

At the farthest point I stopped him and turned him around. He sped up, but did not break into a jig. So I had him walk like that for a few dozen meters, until we came to a nice stretch, and I asked him to trot. I know he wants to go home, he didn't pick a fight over it with me, so you get to go home faster. Before the downhill I slowed him back to a walk, and again he stayed at the walk until the bottom, so I had him trot a while again.

There was one spot where he spooked a little and broke into a trot by himself - I decided to let him do that. It was just before a hill, and before we even got to the top, he was walking again.

So, it was a (more or less) absolutely normal ride.

Back at the barn, I took him to the outdoor arena. There was nothing to correct, so I walked him two minutes in each direction and hopped off. I then had him stand in the crossties with the saddle on for another 2-3 minutes, then I took the saddle off, groomed him, and went back to his pasture.

Good news: He's not buddy sour! Even though he was on this way back to his buddies (the minis), the spring grass was way more important than the yelling minis. 

So, in the interest of science, I'll now start to handwalk him out in the direction that I ultimately want to ride: along fields, through woods, and in a loop. I'm curious to see whether the change of scenery will cause him anxiety again. I could, of course, just ride him, but if at all possible I want "me being on his back" to be a low-key, low-conflict affair. So we'll see.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Well Done! That sounds like a satisfying success. When your horse is with you, and you with him, nothing could be sweeter.


From your writings, I can see how very observant you are, naturally, and how you are starting to find your own pathway, between the book learning, the lessons, and your own actual hands on experience. This is the growth of horsemanship, which is endlessly drawing us forward


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Awesome! Just keep riding him. He'll do great. You've got this!


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