# Saphiro vs Caetano...go!



## greentree

We need pictures.....


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## Dehda01

I personally think that smokey black is not a desirable thing. I would take a buckskin or palomino over smokey black all day long. 

I don't see any videos of Caetano on his website which seems very important to me particularly with the lusitanos since many of them can be sewing machine movers. Or a good conformation picture.


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## Golden Horse

Dphoto45 said:


> looking for your thoughts. Since we know Caetano can through smoky black and Saphiro will not. Caetano is one inch taller at 16 hands vs 15.3. etc... Conformation personality etc...
> :runninghorse2:


My thoughts, and this may be considered snippy or ride by some...

If you want people to give you some feedback, at least give links to the animals you are talking about. OK so maybe you are asking for people who have personal knowledge, but by the lack of response I think this is not going to happen.

If I have to go off and Google information to be able to add anything then I probably won't bother.

Your question is also quite vague, so maybe a little more detail would get you a better quantity, if not quality of answer.

http://www.horseforum.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## Dphoto45

*My apologies,*

Sometimes I think all horse people know everything about all horses out there. Caetano's web site 
Abacus Farms Friesian Sporthorses, Warlanders and Andalusians in color
A video of him as a young horse 




video of Sapphire 



Saphiro's website Saphiro | JC Andalusians

Saphiro is standing with Hyperion, Caetano with his owners in Sacramento Calif. :gallop:


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## LoriF

I'm going to be biased and say Saphiro because that is who my mare is bred to. I've seen him move better than in this video.


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## jaydee

Sorry but based on those two videos I wouldn't chose either, both lack natural elevation and have no length of stride to make them appeal to me, the 'collection' looks more like a horse that's 'jigging' because its being held back in a fixed frame rather than it having 'contained' energy and impulsion - maybe there are better videos of the second horse where he moves better because on that one he looks very choppy which isn't what you want in a dressage horse if that's what you're looking at. 
I have no clue what their personality/temperament type is
I guess you'd be better to look at the sort of progeny their producing from different types of mares?


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## Captain Evil

jaydee said:


> I guess you'd be better to look at the sort of progeny their producing from different types of mares?


What she said...

I would look at as many photos and videos of their offspring as possible, especially those out of mares who are similar to yours. I would carefully examine pedigrees, look at the ancestors and siblings of both stallions, gather pictures, make checklists, ask everyone's opinion until nobody would talk to me anymore and my DH would file divorce papers, and then I would go for Saphiro, because I am completely gaga over his babies.

I can't help it. It is unreasoned. I stalked one of his daughters on Dreamhorse, then at the owner's farm, and then on YouTube, all because in one photo the filly had the cutest smile. Then I started stalking his other babies, and....

Well, that's what I would do.


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## EliRose

Caetano's legs are a solid "run away" from me. Eek!

I've seen better videos of Saphiro.


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## LoriF

I think these are much better pictures of Saphiro


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## LoriF

Dehda01 said:


> I personally think that smokey black is not a desirable thing. I would take a buckskin or palomino over smokey black all day long.


Why do you see smokey black as undesirable?


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## jaydee

He looks better in this one, moving more freely, ridden at about 1:56 and he moves better 'at liberty' too than he does in the dressage test videos
OP - You don't mention what it is you're wanting to breed for (discipline) or what your mare is like and that's the sort of info that helps members give better advice


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## Dehda01

LoriF said:


> Why do you see smokey black as undesirable?


Smokey black is undesirable because it does not express as a dilute. It either looks like a black, or even worse... A faded black. 

If I breed my black (or any color )mare to a cremello, the whole reason is that I want a guarantee of a cream expressioned foal- buckskin or palomino. A smokey black is much less desirable from a selling point. 

So if I have a mare that has a chance to throw black ( like my friesian mare) I will lean towards a perlino, or a cremello who is homozygous for the agouti gene.


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## jaydee

That would be breeding for colour rather than breeding for any specific discipline Dehda - unless that's what the OP is doing then I can't agree with that choice


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## LoriF

I happen to like black horses so I guess that is why I wouldn't see smokey black as undesirable. My mare is genetically black (with no creme gene) and she fades in the summer. No big deal to me because I love the way she looks, rides, and her character. 

If my mare were a smokey black, I would probably avoid breeding her to a horse that carries a creme gene only because I wouldn't want to chance a double dilute. I like double dilutes but they would be too difficult for me to care for them in the Florida summer sun.


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## Dehda01

Don't get me wrong... I LOVE BLACK. But, if I breed my Friesian mare to for an Iberian cream stallion for a warlander foal- I DONT want a smokey black foal. I would be ok with a black foal, but that is not an option with a double dilute stallion. I don't like the color. Probably the one color in the entire pony world I am not infatuated with. Also called a "bad black". Particularly when they are the terrible faded black shade, and it is a possibility. 

When I choose a stallion for her I am looking at all the options, temperment and conformation first, but color is also a consideration. If I wanted a black foal, there are lovely black Andalusian or Lusitano stallions to consider. If I am going to be spending a bit more for a guaranteed buckskin... Then I need to consider a cream based stallion and decide which colors I want my options to be. The wonderful thing with color testing and a black mare is that I know what my options are pretty easily. The foal is also a bit more saleable down the road. Particularly compared to the dull, brownish off-black color that can be a smokey black.


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## Remali

I've always been partial to Saphiro, too.


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## Dphoto45

I am not even sure I will breed my mare. I am considering it now that I know my horses will not live as long as I expected. I'd like to be riding in my seventies. Do I want to buy a new horse then, probably not. I like raising my babies then riding them. I keep them for their entire lives and I keep them ridden in case anything happens to me they will be better off to find a new home. If I breed her I will be looking for a nice riding horse I can do some dressage and some light jumping with. By the time this foal, if there is one, will be able to be ridden my others horses will be 18-19 and ready to retire.
I have always loved the Spanish breeds, Andalusians, Lustianos, etc... But I love the look of warmblood, sport horses as well. I have considered several top hanoverians, all of which would match well with my mare. She is 3/4 Thoroughbred. She has a special look, she is beautiful and several veterinarians said she would make excellent foals. I have heard this from so many people throughout the years but have chosen to not breed her. Now I am considering it. As for color, I have always wanted a buckskin. If I breed her to a Lustiano I will hope to get my buckskin. Is color the only thing I would breed for? absolutely not. The first and foremost consideration would be conformation that would compliment her, as she is not perfect. One horse I think would be excellent for her is Dauphin. But he is in Canada and I think I should be able to find a stallion here in the USA. I do not want to breed her to anything over 16.2, maybe 16.3 but that would be stretching it. She is just 16 hands. 
I am only ruminating on possibilities. If I find what I am looking for it would possibly be for the 2017 year.


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## Dphoto45

As far as crumble Lustianos go there is also Zarco.




The ultimate baroque Look
He also can throw smoky blacks.


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## Captain Evil

Feeling dumb, but what is a crumble Lusitano?


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## LoriF

Captain Evil said:


> Feeling dumb, but what is a crumble Lusitano?


That makes two of us, I have no idea.


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## Captain Evil

Maybe an auto-correct for Cremello??


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## Dphoto45

LOL I didn't notice that, It is Auto correct for Cremello.


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## jaydee

If you're seriously looking at breeding a sport horse prospect for jumping and/or dressage then to be honest you'd have more guarantee of success in those fields if you use a proven WB stallion or a proven Irish Draft stallion on a TB mare
If you're desperate to have a specific colour and its really important to you then you'd do better to just buy a foal or a yearling of that colour


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