# Broodmare conformation?? Let me know what you think.



## mystykat (Dec 4, 2011)

Links won't work for me...


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## alfjupiter82 (Nov 30, 2011)

I fixed them. Sorry about that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alfjupiter82 (Nov 30, 2011)

mystykat said:


> Links won't work for me...


I fixed them
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mystykat (Dec 4, 2011)

Hm, do you have pictures of your stud to see how he would compliment them?


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

IMO neither of those mares should be bred from what those images showed. Both are weak in the loin area. 

The paint is tied in below the knee and has what looks to be weak/posty hind legs. Nice neck and her head ties on nice to her neck.. and her head is nice.. but you don't ride the head. 

The black horse looks butt high and also long in the back. Maybe she has better front legs, but from this photo you cannot tell. 

I would like to see photos of the stud.. and if he is as lackluster as these two mares, I would not breed him either. OTOH if your stud is spectacular, you want better mares than these for him.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Black Tie Social is the first mare's sire and the second mare's grandsire on both sire and dam side. He really seems to me that he carries the frame, from his facial marking, some of the pictures of his progeny as well as by looking at his line and seeing at least one frame overo near him. Both mares could be carring frame (the sorrel might be a frame, I think), but you wouldn't know for sure unless you tested them for frame. QHs are also able to carry frame, so you would want to test the stud for frame before breeding possible frame carriers.

Not impressed with the conformation of either of them. If I were to choose one over the other, I would pick the black. I can live with a little butt high and a slightly longer back (which are pretty common in paints with their QH and Thoroughbred background). 

Nothing really stands out to me in the stud's pedigree (a couple in the third generation and more after that), but he could be quite the looker. Do you have any pictures of him?


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## alfjupiter82 (Nov 30, 2011)

Here he is... 

https://picasaweb.google.com/alajupiter82/January24201202#5701300856731698738

https://picasaweb.google.com/alajupiter82/January24201202#5701300901972437058


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Very poor conformation. Very light bone and tied in behind the knee. Awful hind end. Straight through stifle and hock. Bet she has back leg soundness problems.










I'd like to see better photos.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

I looked at the stud. Take down the first photo.. it really does NOTHING for him at all. When you take photos of a stud.. ANY stud.. you need to ALWAYS make him look good. 

He has good bone and is OK but from his conformation I do not see any compelling reason to keep him a stud! What has he done? Does he herd cattle all day or do other real life work? Has he, himself, earned any titles? Have his offspring done anything stellar? Won at barrels? Cutting? Dressage? If you are going to have a stud, he not only needs great photos, he needs to be proven! 

The stud is long in the back.. IF you insist on breeding him (and I would not based on these photos UNLESS he has a proven work or performance record) you need to find REALLY TOP mares. Good Bone, Short coupled and so forth. 

Really, with all the horses out there for sale and for free (and sound horses going to slaughter) you have no reason to breed any of these three horses. 

Not meaning to be harsh.. just the truth as I see it and the truth is often harsh.


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## SilverShadowStable (Dec 31, 2011)

Dr. Deb Bennet has awesome books on form to function if you find yourself questioning if the horse your looking at may not be the best. There are lots of conformation forums out there to learn from too. If these mares are your first consideration for your boy, take your time when buying a mare, she is 50-60% of the mix. Your stallion has some nice points, really scrutinize what you want for him to put into the mix and don't buy a mare that will work against his best traits. That special mare should only strengthen his weak points. And always look at the grown babies of the mares, if they aren't matching your ideal, keep looking and enjoy the saddle time with your boy while you do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MangoRoX87 (Oct 19, 2009)

Uh. Sorry. But there is nothing special about either of those mares in my eyes..


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## mudpie (Jul 15, 2011)

You know, my best advice to you would be not to breed them, and possibly to get your stallion gelded. There are a huge amount of unwanted horses... it seems to me that breeders who breed simply to breed are the source of this, you know? They're cute and all... but maybe it's best if we just don't breed these horses.


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## Bellasmom (Jun 22, 2011)

Don't hate the stud, though I agree I wouldn't breed him in this economy. Plus there are already about a trillion QH floating around out there, the most overproduced breed there is, IMO. Don't like the paint mare at all, harder to tell anything about the black one. I would ask myself--what am I adding to the gene pool to benefit the breed? The answer here would be "nothing".


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## alfjupiter82 (Nov 30, 2011)

We took over a ranch a few months ago so I have not taken any professional pictures of our horses yet. Those are to come very soon for our website. Still new to all of this but practice makes perfect and working with horses is my passion. Im learning about genetics, conformation etc but takes time so that is why I'm asking questions. I know our stallion is worth breeding. He is one of the very few papered stallions to come off the Huntsville Prison Farm and was purchased at a very rare "premium auction". I'll put a link below that talks about their horses, the link is very sad though because recently kill buyers got their hands on these horses. His babies are beautiful with very good dispositions (known in the Hancock line). Pictures of a few listed below (not professional pics). Thank you for pointing out issues with the mares. 

Link to Info about where stallion came from:
www.horsebackmagazine.com/hb/archives/10126

Pictures of 2010/2011 Colts and Fillies
https://picasaweb.google.com/alajupiter82/EddiesSportsBar2010And2011Foals#5701660339746033122
https://picasaweb.google.com/alajupiter82/EddiesSportsBar2010And2011Foals#5701659963832263698
https://picasaweb.google.com/alajupiter82/EddiesSportsBar2010And2011Foals#5701659928752804162
https://picasaweb.google.com/alajupiter82/EddiesSportsBar2010And2011Foals#5701660307994055042


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## mudpie (Jul 15, 2011)

Those babies are not exceptional by any means. I still stand by what I said before: It'd be best not to breed them.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

He's actually a fairly nice run-of-the-mill type stud (not bad conformation by any means, but not exceptional, either), but now that I know where he came from, that's actually an excellent reason NOT to breed him--particularly with so many related horses going to slaughter. That right there should tell you they aren't in very high demand or very valuable. Looks and good dispositions are extremely commonplace today. Athletic ability, suitabilty for particular disiciplines, and soundness are just as important--no, even more important--considerations.


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## alfjupiter82 (Nov 30, 2011)

Horses like him are sought after around here (Prison horses). They are super work horses and are push button. Our stallion was a prison gaurds work horse who patrolled the fields all day long along with working cattle. No one knew that those horses were going to be there. If they did I believe none of the horses would have made it into the hands of a kill buyer. Last year when that happened the drought was really bad and the only people at the small auctions were kill buyers. Of course they snatched up those horses because they were healthy and could make more money on their weight. We have a few good broodmares that were here when we took over and a few we took out of the mix so we were looking for a few to replace them. Over the last two days I have done a bunch of research and see what everyone means about the mares. I think we are going to wait until next year for the AQHA Best Of Remuda Sale consignment (we missed this years). We really like some of the Waggoner and 6666 Quarter horses. We want to turn out really great foals each year with just a few mares so we can really concentrate on high quality and not quantity.


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

> We want to turn out really great foals each year with just a few mares so we can really concentrate on high quality and not quantity.


The two mares you posted would add quantity not quality to your program. There's nothing special about them. Just baby makers.

As far as the foals he's produced...They might have nice dispositions and personality, they are cute...But I honestly wouldn't give them a second look if I was in the market for another horse.

Sorry...


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Were you looking to make money with this breeding business? I will say, iterate what everyone else here is telling you and the rest who haven't posted are thinking....you will be stuck with horses that no one will buy at a profit to you. Your stallion is pretty decent for sure, but the babies posted are just average horses that no one can make money on, just loveable regular horses, no profit for you, only work & more work. If you want to get your feet wet in the breeding business, you did ok with the stallion, but acquire a mare with a superb show record, also a proven producer. Campaign her baby and go from there. Otherwise you're chucking your money away and causing yourself more work.


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## alfjupiter82 (Nov 30, 2011)

CLaPorte432 said:


> The two mares you posted would add quantity not quality to your program. There's nothing special about them. Just baby makers.
> 
> As far as the foals he's produced...They might have nice dispositions and personality, they are cute...But I honestly wouldn't give them a second look if I was in the market for
> another horse.
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

The foals are just unspectacular. I can honestly find very comparable ones on Craiglist in the free to $500 range. They aren't "bad" horses....they just aren't great horses, either, and mediocre horses are a dime a dozen. Which doesn't mean they won't grow up to be sound, sane, useable horses. They probably will. But it's a flooded market right now, and if I was going to get a baby prospect, I'd either rescue one from a poor condition or pay a little more money and get an exceptional one.

This one, for example, is at a really awkward stage in growth, but he still has kinda wonky conformation, and doesn't look like he'd be the greatest mover or the best athlete. And it's a shame that he's a Paint that's going to gray out, for what that's worth.










Not the best photo for this one, but his front pasterns are long and weak, and that's a concern for future soundness.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Nor would I give them a second look. They are.. just horses. Lots and lots on the market and lots are free or nearly so. Many more just like these are in bad situations because people run out of money to keep them. This economy is not conducive to producing foals. Last year, by your own admission, there was a drought and the killers showed up at the auction and bought a bunch that were by your stallion. They bought them because there are so many just like them on the market. 

If you want to raise meat, get cattle. If you want to breed horses, get better foundation stock. Get a mare that you cannot afford and breed her to a stallion that you could never afford to buy. Prove her colt or filly.. use that as your foundation.

People want made horses and horses that stand out. Horses that cost a lot to buy and even more to breed. Yours are OK. 

In a poor market, OK does not cut it. In a poor market, OK horses go to slaughter and that is just sad.


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## flyinghooves (Jan 25, 2012)

They are both decent horses but as far as conformation goes...not the best. I wouldn't bother breeding them but I think they could benefit from some nice collective riding to work on their back and neck muscles. The paint has great color.


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## alfjupiter82 (Nov 30, 2011)

None of my stallions foals have gone to auction. That was a story about the prison horses, not to focus on the auction, but showing how their breeding program is very strict and keeps only the best blood. Our foals are purchased for western competition, playdays, 4H/FFA and ranch horses. Earlier I stated that we want to purchase higher quality mares. We want to move up the ladder quite a ways. We purchased the property and took over the breeding farm that the prior owners had started. I know I have a lot to learn and this has opened up my eyes for sure. I will be looking for supreme quality mares and will most likely post them for critique. Thanks for all of the comments and advice!


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

You might be able to lease a good mare. Breeding is more than that though. You need to understand bloodlines and what works well with what.. line breeding that works (and line breeding that does not work). You need to learn genetics and prepotency. 

Yes, you are starting out. If you make it in this market you are doing it right. It IS business. You cannot breed with your heart, you need to breed with your head. You need to understand there will be long years of losing money. You need to know what your target market will support price wise. You need to look at breeding operations that have made it through the years (both good and bad economies) that have fed that target market and are still in business.

Last, but not least, you need to understand the money behind those successful operations. Most are not self supporting. Most are supported by other income (oil, Wall Street, Publishing etc.). It takes a LOT of money. 

Of the ones that are self supporting, you need to understand the long years they were not until they got where they are now. Those operations also learned how to change with the economy. Most have trainers on site, facilities with boarders, and other sources of income. 

Foal sales alone are a money loser. It is a poor market even for the good ones. It is a poor market... even at Fasig Tipton... in Saratoga.... 

Remember, some of the top breeding farms in the country have gone out of business or had to sell assets to stay afloat. 

It is a business.. and it is a very expensive business not only to start but to maintain.


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## sierrams1123 (Jul 8, 2011)

I have to agree with the others.
If you are dead set on buying and breeding one of these mares with your "ok" stud then none of us can stop you, but please whatever you do DO NOT breed or buy that first mare. She has no redeeming qualities about her IMHO.


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## Jessabel (Mar 19, 2009)

I don't like either of the mares. And every single one of the foals you posted have weird necks and crappy legs. If a horse has nothing else, he must have sound legs. I wouldn't even give those foals another glance. 

Why would you want to make more foals that look just like the ones going for $200 all over Craigslist? They're _everywhere_. They're selling for $25 a pop at auction in my area. Your stallion is so-so, but he'd make an amazing _gelding_.


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