# Julie Goodnight: shock collar for horses (o-o!)



## iridehorses

**shakes head in amazement** 

I saw that elsewhere and, at first I was appalled; then I stopped to think about it. Personally, I don't like the idea but I would like to see how this discussion goes. This idea was not from some yahoo but a very well respected horsewoman.


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## heyycutter

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE NEVER USE THOSE

i had a foster horse a few years back who was litterally driven mentally insane from those. it took 2 years to be able to touch his face after a shock collar was used on him.
it made him so aggressive he would rear up and try to kick anything that comes near him. people, dogs, horses, tractors, trucks, anything.
he finally got a foever home, but he is mentally scared for life.
those things are horrible


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## Mercedes

Well, we use them on dogs to teach them to stay within a prescribed area and to adjust unwanted behavior like barking, and it works. What makes its use on horses different? 

Now, I just know somebody is going to assume that that means I'm advocating their use for the situation being described in the link. If you wore a shock collar and you got shocked every time you made an assumption like that, how many times would you need to be shocked before you stopped making assumptions? :wink:

See, it was just a question I threw out there to make people think.


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## Mercedes

heyycutter said:


> PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE NEVER USE THOSE
> 
> i had a foster horse a few years back who was litterally driven mentally insane from those. it took 2 years to be able to touch his face after a shock collar was used on him.
> it made him so aggressive he would rear up and try to kick anything that comes near him. people, dogs, horses, tractors, trucks, anything.
> he finally got a foever home, but he is mentally scared for life.
> those things are horrible


Those things are definitely horrible when *misused* 

I have a horse who was beaten with a whip...for years. She never really did get over the beatings. Does that mean whips are horrible?

Carefully people...don't make an assumption now. Just another question. :wink:


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## SilverSpur

im just going to say that _i would never use one on a horse._!


but who here has electic fences?


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## Mercedes

SilverSpur said:


> but who here has electic fences?


:lol:

Good one!


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## kitten_Val

Mercedes said:


> Well, we use them on dogs to teach them to stay within a prescribed area and to adjust unwanted behavior like barking, and it works. What makes its use on horses different?
> 
> Now, I just know somebody is going to assume that that means I'm advocating their use for the situation being described in the link. If you wore a shock collar and you got shocked every time you made an assumption like that, how many times would you need to be shocked before you stopped making assumptions? :wink:
> 
> See, it was just a question I threw out there to make people think.


First, I don't think you advocate using it.  That's a very good question to ask. 

Personally I don't like when it's used on dogs either. However IMO dogs are very different from horses mentally (although I must admit I havnt' met the shock collar trained dogs in person). Dogs don't have, say, those panic attacks or scared by everything and such, in many ways they are also treated differently then horses. Lol! Each horse is still a wild animal (well, I'm kinda exaggerating of course, but I mean the habits and behavior). While dogs are already very far from wolfs at this point. A

Now as for electric fence, I'd compare it with the thorny bushes. It hits it once or twice with the nose and realizes it's not fun. Same with with the fence. Now with the shock collar it'll come from nowhere and as a punishment for normal horse behavior (the aggression and establishing alpha) or scary horse (kicking the trailer). I agree with heyycutter I think the use of shock collar can break horse mentally.


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## Jolly Badger

SilverSpur said:


> im just going to say that _i would never use one on a horse._!
> 
> 
> but who here has electic fences?


That's an excellent point! Basically, an electric fence IS sort of a remote-control way for the owner to keep the livestock in, without the owner having to be there and without a less visible barrier than a post and rail-type fence. The "punishment" for trying to get out is a *zap*, and it doesn't take the horse long to figure out not to touch the wire.

Not saying I support the use of shock collars on horses, and I think some of these NH "professionals" need to be a little more cautious about the methods they are recommending, considering that many of their eager pupils are relatively inexperienced with horses. 

I'd be cautious about encouraging a novice owner to attempt to use a shock collar for "training." There is a very good possibility they will end up causing the horse to become a neurotic, mental mess.


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## mls

We've used one. Had a nasty a$$ cribber/windsucker. It slowed him down but did not stop him. He was just too much of a junkie. (we did try the regular nut cracker and basket muzzle first)

Owner was ok at first but then decided it was 'natural' for him to walk about bloated all the time. We eventually had to ask her to leave. (destroying white oak fence) Sad thing is - the horse did die from colic. (after two surgery for displaced colon).

Have any of you ever used a squirt bottle to train a kitten or puppy to not jump, claw, etc? The idea behind the shock collar is the same. The correction comes with no obvious human interaction. The shock can be adjusted for the needs of the animal - just as an electric fence is.


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## Mercedes

kitten_Val said:


> First, I don't think you advocate using it.


I've yet to come across a situation where I thought one would be the best and most effective tool for a horse. And I'm unable to think of a situation where it would be the best and most effective tool for a horse. Ask me in another 20 years, I may change my mind. 

I know of a deaf dog it was used on, and it worked quickly and effectively to show the dog the boundaries of the property, which was located on a busy stretch of road. Clearly the problem with a deaf dog is that it can't hear commands, and if the dog isn't looking at the person, the dog can't obey the hand signals it's been taught. So, there's a situation where I thought it was a good tool.



> Personally I don't like when it's used on dogs either. However IMO dogs are very different from horses mentally (although I must admit I havnt' met the shock collar trained dogs in person). Dogs don't have, say, those panic attacks or scared by everything and such, in many ways they are also treated differently then horses. Lol! Each horse is still a wild animal (well, I'm kinda exaggerating of course, but I mean the habits and behavior). While dogs are already very far from wolfs at this point.
> 
> Now as for electric fence, I'd compare it with the thorny bushes. It hits it once or twice with the nose and realizes it's not fun. Same with with the fence. Now with the shock collar it'll come from nowhere and as a punishment for normal horse behavior (the aggression and establishing alpha) or scary horse (kicking the trailer). I agree with heyycutter I think the use of shock collar can break horse mentally.


I think your logic is flawed here about the differences between dogs and horses, HOWEVER I do believe you hit the nail on the head in terms of the situation the device is being advocated for...which is a change to instinctual equine behavior at a cellular level. Therefore, I do believe it's straight up bad advice.


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## FlitterBug

I personally think it is just like many other tools in the horse business, it has a good place when used properly, but can be dangerous in the wrong hands. Just like any other "training tool", it has a lot to do with timing and consistency. To say to never use it because it makes a horse lose its mind is like say never eat a cookie because you will get obese. I know, cookies taste better, but the point is that things can be used properly and in moderation without producing a negative side affect.

I know someone who uses shock collars regularly on their horses and dogs, all of the animals are working animals (cattle) and not a single one is shy of a person. I could see they could be very dangerous in the wrong hands, and with training I personally try to find the cause of the problem first, but I do have 2 cribbers and was considering trying this same thing. I have resolved ulcer issues and eliminated all colic symptoms, but the behavior still remains.

I have had many horses learn to not do something just when you are around. When a horse is left alone, the act of going over to the horse to stop a horse from doing soemthing usually stops the behavior briefly, but also get the horse the attention that they are looking for. Like mls said, instant correction with no human interaction.


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## Mercedes

FlitterBug said:


> I have resolved ulcer issues and eliminated all colic symptoms, but the behavior still remains.


That is definitely a situation where an experiment with it would be interesting. The issue as you say, would come from people using it w/o having fixed the trigger...then it would undoubtedly fail.


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## Juniper

I think they could be horribly abusive in the wrong hands, like anything. I am pretty sure Clinton Anderson suggests shock collars in certain, very limited instances. I thought I would never use one on a dog in a million years. Our lab would go berserk in the car, howling with excitement and literally throwing himself around breaking things because he knew he was going to go swimming or something. You could not make him stop, I think I could have beaten him to a pulp and no change. Got a shock collar, he gave himself one shock and lay down in the car quietly for the rest of the ride. Had to put it back on him one other time. No exaggeration, that is how much of a non stress action it was for him. I suspect Julie Goodnight uses the shock collar on horses in much the same way. It corrects the horse and there is no getting into a fight with the horse and it could be a humane solution, if done with a lot of knowledge!


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## Honeysuga

When used in gentle, well timed, experienced hands for the correct purpose, I see nothing wrong with it. It really isn't that shocking(sorry for the pun) to see shock collars on an animal for training purposes. How do you think invisible fencing works? How bird and hunting dogs are trained? Honestly a low voltage shock can be gentler, more effective, and more quickly enforced reprimand than a smack with a crop or really anything else, plus your horse does not associate you with the punishment, he just knows when he does *this*, he feels a shock.


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## Seahorseys

I use a barking collar on my shi tzu when we leave the house. Barking incessantly is something she knows she should not do, as she is often corrected for it - without the aid of the collar. You can tell from her body language that she knows it is inappropriate behavior. The collar, adjusted at a very low-level, serves as a reminder that it is unacceptable to bark, and bark, and bark when we are not there to correct it ourselves. However, she can barks as much as she wants when we go for long hikes or she is playing outside. The idea is not to get into the habit of neurotic barking when someone passes by the house.

I can't recall a horse problem I've seen that would need this type of device, but I'm not saying that means it is not useful in the right circumstance. However, I imagine there are more cases of mis-use of the collar then there are productive ones, probably because people are always looking for that cure-all short-cut. I guess this would mean, more often than not, that the unwarranted behaviour would be corrected through relying on the device, (say biting) but that it may be exchanged for another undesirable behaviour. (i.e over-sensitivity or head shyness) I don't have an electric fence, but I sometimes wish I did, because my horse tends to think the grass is greener on the other side, and rubs her mane off. I think that electric fencing is kind of an indirect way of encouraging a modification in behavior, as I imagine a shock collar would be. I tend to think that it is better that your horse know that a request in change of behavior is coming directly from you, and the importance is that he recognizes and respects that. I don't know though. Shock collars have gotten a bad rap because of their ease of being used incorrectly, but that shouldn't negate the positives that may come from using one in an educated, humane manner.

As for me, I'd rather the horse not be under the assumption that I have the power of making magic lightning bolts fly out of my finger tips, lol.


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## justsambam08

I don't advocate shock collars on dogs, and I don't advocate shock collars on horses. Wouldn't think of using one on anything that I owned, either.

The problem with electric fence vs. electric collar is that the electric fence serves more than one purpose....It keeps the horses off the fence, and it also keeps other animals out. The animal also controls when its zapped on an electric fence. They learn once and then never try it again, but with a human controlled device, its too easy to be misused.


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## mls

justsambam08 said:


> They learn once and then never try it again, but with a human controlled device, its too easy to be misused.


Are you serious? You have never had a smart horse. We've had horses (ponies are especially guilty) that KNOW when the fence is off or shorted out.

Shock collar is no more abusive than a whip in the wrong hands.


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## kitten_Val

To all people who say it's OK. Have you ever tried the shock on yourself? I had once when I was a kid (from the broken device). Well... I personally would rather have a good smack of crop on my leg or butt then shock again. After so many years I still remember it. While I may agree with using it for really bad cribbing case (because so far I haven't seen any real cure for that one) I disagree to use it for everything else. Personally I don't think it's humane whether it's dog or a horse or a cat or rabbit or whatever else.


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## MN Tigerstripes

Mls- Then you have MY horses. I came home one day and went out to the barn. Find out the fence is down. Apparently Soda rolled a little too close to the edge, caught it, and pulled 1/4 of the fence line out. 

Here's the kicker. Both horses were hanging out IN the paddock. Hadn't even stepped a foot out of the boundary. It was very muddy so I would've seen any tracks they made. 

Shock collars could be useful in the right circumstances. Just like with dogs you need to know how to use the tool effectively. I've yet to have a horse where I thought it would be useful. Although someone did suggest it to me for Soda's pasture horse-horse aggression.

Edit - My brother trains his dogs for feild trials using a shock collar. They are the furthest things from abused animals. They aren't afraid of my brother or the collar and they love their training sessions. He has tried the collar on himself before putting it on the dog. Yup, it hurts. Not excruciating pain, but not fun. But that's what it's there for. A correction when you are not able to administer the correction yourself (your dog is 100 yds away and isn't obeying hand signals).


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## kitten_Val

mls said:


> Are you serious? You have never had a smart horse. We've had horses (ponies are especially guilty) t*hat KNOW when the fence is off or shorted out.*


There is a sound (vibration) they can hear, so I'm not surprised. My horses always knew when it was off. My biggest concern with the electric fence (I'm NOT against it at all BTW) was we had to ride past it and with younger horses who could bolt it was a good possibility they could run YOU into the fence (almost happened once with BO).


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## mls

kitten_Val said:


> To all people who say it's OK. Have you ever tried the shock on yourself?


Actually - yes. To show the boarder it wasn't so terrible.

And my bare skin - vs the horse with a thicker hide and hair to cover the area.

Personally detest electric fences. We had cattle and sheep growing up. fence had to be H O T to keep them in.


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## Rule of Reason

Jolly Badger said:


> I think some of these NH "professionals" need to be a little more cautious about the methods they are recommending, considering that many of their eager pupils are relatively inexperienced with horses.


Agree with this. What a professional might use as a last resort in specially difficult situations is not necessarily something that said professional should be advocating to the far less experienced public. Especially when it has an evil-sounding name like "shock." People either respond as if it's Cuckoo's Nest for horses, or they think it might be a good idea for cribbing, which would be at the BOTTOM of my personal list.


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## shesinthebarn

I think in extreme cases in experienced hands it could be usefull. I think Julie Goodnight qualifies as experienced. I don't think she was meaning to cure ALL aggression in the horse in question, but the unreasonable and dangerous behaviour. I do think however, that she needs to clarify that it should only be used by very experienced and qualified people.

My family has trained field dogs for 3 generations and yes, we use the shock collars. You can turn them down so low that it feels like a little bump. Pretty far from a shock. Our dogs are friendly and happy. we did use the collar aggressively with a great dane once (a client dog)- the dog had a bad habbit of chasing foals and had run one through a fence. We had to turn the collar up to 50% before we resolved the issue, but at least it was resolved and the dog got to keep breathing. The owners were ready to have him put down.


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## Alwaysbehind

justsambam08 said:


> It keeps the horses off the fence, and it also keeps other animals out.


:?:

It keeps other animals out?

You must have your fence set up with lots of strands very close together, very close to the ground and very high.

On any given day I see various forms of wildlife trotting across my pasture (shortest distance is a straight line). Fence on, and it is strong. Coyote, fox, deer, turkey, etc. They all figure out how to go over, under or through with out getting shocked.



justsambam08 said:


> The animal also controls when its zapped on an electric fence. They learn once and then never try it again, but with a human controlled device, its too easy to be misused.


Do not have shock collar experience with horses but the animal does have control over getting zapped again. They quickly learn what behaviors get them a zap and what do not.


The amount of salts in our body make a dog shock collar feel different to us than they do to a dog, btw. So saying 'have you ever felt that' does not mean much.


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## kmacdougall

I hated shock collars til my boyfriend bought one to train his new hunting dog. I still hated them, but they are effective training tools and the dog isn't scared of it (plus his is adjustable). When it came down to giving the dog a shock or upsetting a flock of ducks and a whole hunting season, he didn't have much choice. 

As far as on horses, I would really have to see it in practice before I made up my mind. Also, if I was going to use it on my horse I'd try it on myself first. I was standing in a puddle and got electric fence on the forehead (don't ask LOL) and it wasn't honestly terrible. It's more like OMG I JUST GOT SHOCKED then OMG THAT HURT SO SO BAD!!. 

And as far as the fence debate thing, my electrobraid doesn't make any noise (got shocked on the ear trying to figure that one out) but my large pony KNOWS when that thing is off. He'll actually lean his chest against the rope when he knows its off!


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## Jetana

I can see using very mild electronic collars on predator animals, but certainly not on prey.
In my opinion, it's a 'quick fix' to a bigger problem. I don't know abotu anyone else here, but I'd much rather have a horse respect _me_ than a collar.
I've also seen her, and personally met and conversed with her. This is one thing I didn't see coming.

I also thoguht about the electric fences thing, before I even read through the spots. But, after a moment of consideration, the difference lies in the consistency. Electric fences are constant things that hit a horse every single time they touch it without fail. On the other hand, such a powerful device as a shock collar has the potential to be VERY easily misused, and relied too heavily upon. Once the horse figures out that the reinforcement comes from the collar, you're back to square one- or maybe even further back than you were.


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## kitten_Val

mls said:


> Actually - yes. To show the boarder it wasn't so terrible.
> 
> And my bare skin - vs the horse with a thicker hide and hair to cover the area.
> 
> Personally detest electric fences. We had cattle and sheep growing up. fence had to be H O T to keep them in.


It probably depends on person to person then (probably skin, weight and such). My experience was completely awful.


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## kevinshorses

I must be an abusive sucker because I have no problem with a shock collar. If you use one correctly (and I don't think you have to be a rocket scientist to use one correctly) it is an effective tool and can help cure horses of behavior that is dangerous for them and for people. It should be used as a last resort but it is not as cruel as things I have seen people do when horses get dangerous to be around or start destroying property. There are some times when you can not get to a horse to correct it. If a horse paws constantly in a trailer or bites other horses in a trailer there is nothing you can physically do to stop it but I bet a little bump with the shock collar would stop it in a hurry. 

Some of the previous posters have made up thier mind based on emotion and not on critical thinking. I doubt that Miss Goodnight endorsed it without some thought. She saw a tool that will help horses and in turn help people. I'm sure you can abuse a horse with one but it's probably no easier than abusing them with a whip or a chain lead or spurs. It's the mind of the person using the tool that determines if it will be abused not the tool itself. If I go out and cram a big spade bit into a two year olds mouth and go to yanking on it that would be abuse. If I took the same bit and put it in a well trained seasoned horses mouth where I would only have to lift a rein on shift in the saddle to get what I need then it is very humane and comfortable for the horse. Take out the emotional knee-jerk reactions and think critically and I believe most of you will see the wisdom in what Miss Goodnight is saying.


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## nrhareiner

SilverSpur said:


> im just going to say that _i would never use one on a horse._!
> 
> 
> but who here has electic fences?


I do not use electric fences or shock collars on any of my hunting dogs. I have dogs that I have trained who have multiple AKC titles and hunt and not one was trained or uses a shock color. If you can train you do not need one. They are simple short cuts for lazy people.


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## smrobs

IMHO, this is just like any other training tool. Very effective when used properly but can be very abusive if used improperly. I have been shocked and while it was very unpleasant, it didn't do any permanent damage either physically or emotionally. We have hot wire and all our horses get shocked, I get shocked all the time. I have never used a shock collar and probably never will but I can see how it would be effective in the right hands. I heard a success story of a stallion that would charge the stall door whenever another horse was walked past and after just a few sessions with a collar, he would stand quietly no matter how close the other horse got to the door. 

The thing about these collars is that when the punishment is timed right, the horse associates the pain with the behavior, not the human with the whip or lead rope. Horses aren't reasoning creatures like we are, they aren't going to connect the remote in your hand to the collar on their neck and they can't associate you with the pain because you don't move when they feel it so they feel no threat from you. Not the same story when you go after them with a buggy whip or a lead rope, then they learn that they have to behave when you are around but can misbehave when you are not in sight.

I have no problem with the tool, only the way it is used. I generally don't have a problem with BNTs either but it is those who preach against using force of any kind on any horse and then say it's okay for _them_ use pain or submission "in this one situation" that bother me. I don't like hypocrits. I don't know enough about JGs training methods to say one way or the other but I really don't think this would have been such a big deal if it had been Clinton Anderson or Craig Cameron to mention it.


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## kitten_Val

nrhareiner said:


> I do not use electric fences or shock collars on any of my hunting dogs. I have dogs that I have trained who have multiple AKC titles and hunt and not one was trained or uses a shock color.* If you can train you do not need one. They are simple short cuts for lazy people.*


Completely agree.


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## NittanyEquestrian

I have a cribber and I have long wondered if the shock therapy for cribbing would work. I too have ruled out ulcers, teeth, etc and it's just a boredom/learned behavior. My mare is manageable with a strap and is not overly destructive and does not get bloated like some hardcore cribbers. I also agree though that it would be very easy for the average owner to misuse this technology. However, it's very easy and common for the average owner to misuse any training gadget, philosophy, etc so I'm not sure why it's more ok to put gigantically harsh bits in horse's mouths, beat them with whips, etc and not shock them with a collar. I'm not going to reword the posts before me but I would like to pose a question of my own.

If you had a horse that was so dangerous/belligerant/etc that the only options were to try the shock collar therapy or euthanasia...what would you do?


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## Allison Finch

kitten_Val said:


> To all people who say it's OK. Have you ever tried the shock on yourself?
> 
> 
> *I sure have. I was shot with a law enforcement taser (part of my training with it) and it delivered 50,000 volts! And.....?*
> 
> 
> 
> I had once when I was a kid (from the broken device). Well... I personally would rather have a good smack of crop on my leg or butt then shock again. After so many years I still remember it. While I may agree with using it for really bad cribbing case (because so far I haven't seen any real cure for that one) I disagree to use it for everything else. Personally I don't think it's humane whether it's dog or a horse or a cat or rabbit or whatever else.


I have been lucky to have been able to retrain horse's vices without one. I have seen vicious biters that other people had been unable to fix. They were not my problem, but that is a very difficult vice to fix. I would certainly try a shock collar on a horse like that if the alternative was euthanasia.


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## heyycutter

my horse was so agressive his previous owner was ready to put him down, and i was able to rid him of his problem without shock collars. i dont think they are necessary at all.

i work at a pet store and we sell shock collars for dogs, and people all the time tell me the shock collars only stop barking when its ON and working, but, the second you take it off, the barking is back.
i dont see how shock collars fix problems, they seem to just stop them for short amounts of time.


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## roro

I have no problem with it as long as it isn't misused.


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## PaintsPwn

eh, I don't like Julie Goodnight - but if I had tried everything else, you bet I'd at least try a shock collar as a last resort.


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## Juniper

this is hijacking the thread , but why don't you like Julie Goodnight?


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## Beling

It's not at all like an electric fence, which is entirely passive. It's as if you go into your house, find it burglared, and as soon as you rise up in rage, out of the blue, you suffer an electric jolt. You might learn to hold in your scream of fear/rage, but you wouldn't understand why, nor would it address the reasons behind your behavior. If I had a horse so hopeless as those described, I'd soon euthanize him. More humane.


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## Alwaysbehind

That is a pretty strange analogy. :-?

Agree with the shock system or not you have to admit that horses are a cause and affect kind of creature. If I do this and it hurts I will try to avoid doing this. It really is that simple.


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## Beling

Sometimes I think it's not so simple. Horses have emotions too, and they grow into adults as their environment shapes them. They become individuals.

What I'm saying is that there's a reason behind why a horse gets emotional, and attacks you. You can stop the actual attack, maybe, but if you don't get to the reason, you have a time bomb. Also, I don't think a human -- or very, VERY few -- could have _at all times_ the perfect timing to coincide with the bad behavior. Anyway, my vote goes against the collar.


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## JustDressageIt

I will type more when I'm back on my home computer and not my little iTouch, but I felt the need to say this:
the difference between an electric fence and a shock collar is vast; the electric fence is a constant, and it's visible. The horse can see the fence, and EVERY time he touches it, it will zap him. It is consistant. It will not shock every other time, or only when a human is around, and there is a visual reminder that it is there. 
A shock collar (one with a remote anyways, unless someone has come up with an automatic anti-neigh collar?) is not constant. The human has to see the action and be very very swift with the shock for it to be useful at all. If they wait even a second too late, they will be zapping for the wrong action. There is also no warning, and no visual. 
I'm not commenting one way or the other, just bringing up a point I thought might be useful to the conversation. 

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wild_spot

I can see situations where they could be useful, one comes to mind.

A friends mare would get bored in the float and start attacking Wildey - Kicking under the rubber divider, and bitng at him through the metal head divider. She bit half the paint off the divider, and cut up his back legs pretty badly. We stopped and bandaged his legs halfway to Sydney but there was nothing else we could do, and we had to watch her attacking him in the camera. I think a shock collar would have been an effective tool in that situation.


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## ponyboy

Mercedes said:


> Well, we use them on dogs to teach them to stay within a prescribed area and to adjust unwanted behavior like barking, and it works. What makes its use on horses different?


My dog was kicked before I got her. Now she yelps any time somebody's feet even get close to her. They don't actually have to touch her. 

I don't think using an electric shock is _automatically_ cruel but I could see how it could make some horses worse.


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## jazzyrider

although i would never use one myself i also cant see myself disagreeing with them when used in the right hands. 

i believe that although the horse is only being disciplined for an action as opposed to treating the source of the action it still in effect teaches the horse that that behaviour was wrong. IMO a horse needs to know what behaviour is acceptable and what isnt doesnt matter where the initial behaviour comes from. for example; my tb mare can be standing over the top of a sprinkler when it goes off (auto sprinkler) and she'll startle a tad, jump to the side and continue eating. my wb gelding on the other hand jumps, snorts, kicks and farts if he is in the same position. it takes him a while to settle. same situation yet two different reactions. one is acceptable and one isnt but it shows that a horse doesnt have to lose his mind to deal with a 'trigger'. this to me is where this kind of "therapy" could pay off. a horse can still go 'aagh, that scared me' without the dramatisation of it all. this is only an example but it would apply to many cases IMO

a zap from one of those things might be uncomfortable for us but we are small and think skinned in relation to a horse. we also have little hair protecting our skin. im sure what is a rather uncomfortable zap for us would be like a slap from a hand to them. 

i do also agree though that there are flaws with regards to the effectiveness of training in some areas but in other areas i think they would work very effectively


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## twh

The shock collar should be used as a last resort. Just like any training tool, it is not cruel unless the human controlling it decides to make it cruel.


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## kiwigirl

nrhareiner said:


> I do not use electric fences or shock collars on any of my hunting dogs. I have dogs that I have trained who have multiple AKC titles and hunt and not one was trained or uses a shock color. If you can train you do not need one. They are simple short cuts for lazy people.


 It is nice that you don't have to use electric fences for your horses, I have to say though that your fences woulden't last five minutes with my horse. She has walked through a six wire fence, pushed over an eight wire fence, pushed through a pipe gate by snapping the chain that latched it and has manged to snap every railing fence that she has come across, I now electrify every inch of her paddock fence. 

We use an electric dog collar on our choc lab when we are out hunting. Boz will find, retrieve and hold game out to 300 yards often out of sight and earshot. Because he often works outside of earshot we use the collar to get his attention. He has learnt to look at us when he feels the tingle which then gives us the chance to sign what we want from him. Our dog is a very well trained hunting dog and I don't see my husband or myself as lazy. But thanks for your pomposity it is amusing.


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## ridergirl23

i see when it could be useful, and i can see where some people would think its a good idea when its not. i agree with kiwigirl. if its used properly and only in the situatiosn where it would make it better, not worse. then i think its a pretty good tool.


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## dressagebelle

I also agree that in the wrong hands, just like pretty much anything else, it can become an abusive tool that makes things worse. My biggest issue would be that just like some dogs, the horse might learn that as long as the collar is on, he/she has to behave, but once it comes off, he/she can do whatever he/she wants. I wouldn't necessarily use it on a horse that cribs, but if I had a horse that was incredibly aggressive, either towards other animals or people, and nothing else worked, then I would try the shock collar and see if it helped. But it would be a last resort. In the right hands, and for the right reasons, I think that it could be a very effective training tool that can help a horse with severe problems, but I do think that everything else should be fixed or figured out first. If the horse has ulcers, is in pain for some reason, ect., rule those out first, and then work from there, because I do agree that while you can teach the horse that behavior "a" is unwanted, if it is caused by "b" whatever that may be, and you never eliminate "b" from the equation, then teaching the horse that behavior "a" is unwanted is not going to stick because "b" is still causing the "a" behavior.


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## Tinytrainer

This is a tool to use if you are at the end of your rope and even then by an experienced person only. Otherwise it is just another lazy training method. Julie Goodnight is great at marketing herself, but otherwise I am unimpressed by her. Natural horsemanship indeed. She is ridiculous.


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## Beling

jazzyrider said:


> ...my tb mare can be standing over the top of a sprinkler when it goes off (auto sprinkler) and she'll startle a tad, jump to the side and continue eating. my wb gelding on the other hand jumps, snorts, kicks and farts if he is in the same position. it takes him a while to settle. same situation yet two different reactions. one is acceptable and one isnt but it shows that a horse doesnt have to lose his mind to deal with a 'trigger'.


Some people watch a sad movie, they cry. Others don't. Punishing a person for what is to them a natural action, or reaction, isn't going to change him, might make things worse. I like to think horsemanship is about channeling "wrong" behavior in another direction, not taking a horse's individuality and wringing it out. Or shocking it either.


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## kelseyloveshorses

*More info from the company.. interesting*

Since 1968 when electronic collars first started being manufactured people have used them successfully as a training tool for both dogs and horses. Although referring to them as shock collars is common it’s an inaccurate description. ViceBreaker is effective because it works on the horse’s natural fear of the unknown – not pain. 

Horse owners may wish for the perfect temperament, environment, level of activity and space for their horses. In reality, many owners have limited options. Regardless of the initial cause of vices and bad habits, many of these behaviors risk injury to the horse, those around the horse, or expense to the owner for vet bills or repairs from destructive behavior. In our years of experience with ViceBreaker we have not witnessed the horse exhibiting an increase in stress or typically resorting to a different behavior.
We encourage people with either a curiosity or a doubt about ViceBreaker to visit our website at www.tthorse.com <http://www.tthorse.com/> and read the testimonials of our endorsers such as Clinton Anderson, Steve Cauthen, Craig Johnson, Rod Bergen – all of whom used ViceBreaker extensively before agreeing to endorse it. Read testimonials by other owners and learn from their experiences, request the free DVD that is offered or call our customer service reps with your questions.


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## Juniper

That looks informative. Sometime I will have time to read it. Thanks for posting it.


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## PechosGoldenChance

I'm not oppossed to this at all. As long as it's in the right hands of an experienced person, there's nothing wrong. I would never use one on my horse, or my aunts gelding because they are great horses. However, the other gelding, Pecho...I'd throw one on him in a heartbeat. He constantly destroys his stall and stall door just because another horse walks in past him, or if another horse is in cross ties right next to him. 

Kitten Val: You posted something about if anyone has every tried a shock collar on themselves? I do...all the time! If we get a new shock collar, I always test it myself, and adjust it to where I think it is best. I've tested many different types of shock collars from level 1 to level 10. Yea, it hurts pretty good, but I only set it to where I can handle it because my dogs don't need anything past what I can handle because they're generally good dogs. Even if they hear the beeping of it before it shocks, they freak out and go where they know they won't get in trouble. As for horses, I'm not sure if I'd try one of those collars, if the voltage is much higher than that of a dog's shock collar, than I could easily hurt myself...or worse. Even if you touch an electric fence you can kill yourself. It doesn't take much voltage to do it. So...yea...I'm not sure if I'd try out the horses shock collar lol


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## Juniper

The person who put in our invisible fence had everyone in the family try the electric collar to see what it was like before he did the training on our dog.
It was scary but we did it. The dog has so much freedom now, with no chance of being hit by a car, it is a great thing for him.


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## Beling

I have tried and tried to come around to your thinking, to understand; all the Good; all the Great Results; but I still think it's cruel. I wonder if it's a matter of ends justifying means, whether you agree to that or not. To me, there really aren't any "ends" only the moving on. . .


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## Vidaloco

roro said:


> I have no problem with it as long as it isn't misused.


I like that answer, short and to the point :lol: I see as a simple training tool. It, like any other tool can be misused by uneducated people.


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