# Considering some western, but I don't want to stray from my english/dressage AND bits



## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

Buy a cheap western headstall and some short (barrel?) reins, attach your D ring to it, and go have fun! There is nothing wrong at ALL with using a snaffle...or even your dressage bridle...for trail riding and I bet the trail work will help your mare a lot. Some horses need a 'real life scenario' reason to do something in the arena before they get good at it, or do it willingly. She could be one of those.

You might get some funny looks, but really- who cares? You have a quarter horse. You can pull of a western saddle  no one says you have to neck rein to trail ride!


We used to ride our OTTB gelding Noah (R.I.P) in an English bridle and western saddle...and we even asked him to accept contact in that saddle too!










I very rarely ever rode in a 'western' bit evne though I never rode English. My go-to bit was a full cheek snaffle or a French link. You don't have to have a shanked bit to enjoy yourself on the trails!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

If your horse has been doing dressage even at low level he should be able to turn on leg cues and minimal rein contact so you wont look out of place and western horses that have been trained to it can work in a collected frame


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## DuckDodgers (May 28, 2013)

First off, don't think that all of your issues will be resolved in a western saddle. It may help you FEEL more stable, but a spook is still a spook! 

I ride dressage, and I just recently bought a western saddle too. You may feel silly, but there's nothing wrong with mixing tack really. For the past month I've been riding with my brown western bridle and my dressage saddle just cause I haven't felt like switching my bit over to my other bridle. That said, there's nothing to say that you can't use a plain ol' snaffle on a western bridle. I've heard concerns from some people that you need to be careful using one eared bridles with no throatlatch with a snaffle (something about the bridle slipping off because of lack of leverage), but you can buy a brown western bridle to match your saddle. I have a snaffle on my western bridle (with browband and throatlatch) and he does not look out of place.

As far as riding goes, you need to figure that out on your own. You absolutely can do dressage with him, but how much straying you want to do is up to you. Just because you toss a western saddle on your horse doesn't mean you need to start neck reining and/or working cattle :wink:


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## iDressage (Sep 21, 2013)

Thanks everyone for the advice! Great so far.
I just talked to my trainer (texting, I think in person would help but I haven't seen him recently) and he doesn't sound enthused about the whole western thing. I think it's because he's trying to save me money and keep me from buying someone I don't "need," but it's something I've thought about for a while and something I think would really help me out. 

Thanks!


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

I wouldn't worry about bits, bridles, or cuing.

If I have to grab a horse that isn't "western" and I know what he normally goes in, that is what I use. Hence, I've ridden horses with western saddles and full double bridles, a variety of gags, whatever. If they don't neck rein, I don't bother with that.


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## Chevaux (Jun 27, 2012)

If you're looking for more security out on the trail, perhaps you should try an Australian saddle. It has an english type look to it, the poleys on the front of an aussie one are similar to western saddles with swells - they help stop you from being pitched forward - plus they have a generally deep seat with a high cantle. Otherwise, a western one will work too and don't worry about mixing tack - you see all sorts of combinations when you're out on the trail.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Some of us even make it into the show ring 'mixed and matched' Western tack, English french link snaffle, and English flash noseband, used with western bridle, probably had English boots on as well.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

this book will help you. Marty Marten is hardly known, but this book her wrote is so clear and informative, with great visuals. it will help you approach western riding as just "riding" and to have some things to do with your mare on the ground, and in the saddle. the last part of the book is on how to work with spooking. it is not an expensive book . i heartily recommend.

Problem Solving Vol. 1 by Marty Marten - The Horsemanship Shop


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

I ride with a bosal in a western saddle that I took the fenders off of and put on english leathers and stirrups.

I like the hybrid way of going down the trail. If I am in a dressage lesson I do ride in all my english gear most of the time. Sometimes I will put my horse in the bosal with english saddle and take a lesson.

What I could have said without all the history is ride in what is comfortable for you!


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

Don't worry about mismatching your tack,go with what works.so if you want to ride in english bridle & western saddle go for it,it isn't all that unusual:wink: I show Breed shows & many horses are in the warm up pen being ridden English but are tacked in western saddle:lol: The basic training is the same IMO ,I am schooling my horse in similar manner,but ride primarily western.I ride most my horses in a snaffle bit & direct reining. I actually do very little neck reining when riding western unless in a curb bit or out on the trail,Horses move more by my seat & leg cues. Western, yes as your horse advances & learning self carriage they are ridden on a loose rein,but in the schooling phase of training you do have them ride into contact.
My one mare was started by a H/J trainer,I'd drag my western saddle out there to ride her & knew little about riding English:-(. I maybe got some looks from some of the others at the barn but whatever. I found her schooling to not be any different really than my western trained horses. :wink:


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## DuckDodgers (May 28, 2013)

iDressage said:


> Thanks everyone for the advice! Great so far.
> I just talked to my trainer (texting, I think in person would help but I haven't seen him recently) and he doesn't sound enthused about the whole western thing. I think it's because he's trying to save me money and keep me from buying someone I don't "need," but it's something I've thought about for a while and something I think would really help me out.
> 
> Thanks!


If that's the case, then YOU decide if the benefits are worth spending $xxx on a western saddle, girth, and pad. If you're really looking to save money where you can in this venture, then those are the only three items that you really need to buy. No reason to spend money on anything else if you don't have it- you can definitely get by with the bridle that you have, and I'd encourage you to use the same bit. Of course, buying a western bridle is always an option, but it's not mandatory!


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## iDressage (Sep 21, 2013)

Thanks everyone for the advice! So how can I do direct reining "properly" in western without confusing my horse too much? and I definitely intend to use my same snaffle. Thanks.


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## DuckDodgers (May 28, 2013)

iDressage said:


> Thanks everyone for the advice! So how can I do direct reining "properly" in western without confusing my horse too much? and I definitely intend to use my same snaffle. Thanks.


The same way that you would in English? If I'm reading correctly, you basically want to do dressage riding in a western saddle, and ride in said saddle out on the trails for security purposes. Just because he has a western saddle on his back doesn't mean that he won't respond to his usual cues, particularly if you're using your usual snaffle.

Some may disagree, but I think that neck reining is a skill horses should have. My horse was broke western and bought green broke by his previous owner that did dressage exclusively until I bought him at age 5. During the time period that she had him they didn't do any neck reining, but he still neck reined like a champ when I got him. It's a good skill to have, and there's no reason in the world that a horse can't do both!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

If your horse has been trained for direct reining, then it won't confuse him. If he has been ridden with contact, then that won't confuse him either. 

Traditional western use of reins differs a lot from traditional English, but you can keep using your dressage style of reins while riding in a western saddle. The big difference between western & English use of reins is not snaffle vs curb, but riding with loose reins vs contact.

Having learned to ride on a spooky horse, I am a big fan of Australian style saddles. Those Mickey Mouse ears on the front have kept my beginner rider butt in the saddle on a lot of spins! My Aussie-style saddle is definitely more secure in a spin than my western saddle. You can see how close the poleys are to the thigh:










Mia on a 'mix & match' day - western reins and English saddle:


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## LovesMyDunnBoy (Aug 11, 2011)

I've always preferred a headstall with a browband with barrel reins (like bsms's picture) with a snaffle. The only difference would be that there's no nose band or flash. But you could still use your english bridle if you wanted. And you use two hands just the same as you would english, most neck reining is done with a curb bit. If she rides with contact, keep doing that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ligoleth (Sep 9, 2011)

Cross training is helpful in a variety of ways. You wont "lose" anything. if at all, you gain more knowledge and respect for other disciplines. 

I do english and western. I like English more because it feels more active to me. I want to get into dressage because I feel it is a good baseline to have. But whenever I feel like it, I just flip flop to keep myself sharp.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Actually, most western horses start their careers with direct reining. I know that all mine do, so there is nothing at all wrong with direct reining, no matter the reason. Also, like others have said, there's no real reason to buy a western bridle setup if you don't need to. You might get a funny look or two from "purists" (folks who believe all tack and riding styles should match "tradition"), but most folks won't care one way or the other.


Truthfully, what I'm much more concerned about is the reason why she's bucking. Has she always had a tendency to buck when she got spooked or overwhelmed? Does she only buck when she spooks?

I'm wondering if she might not have some pain, perhaps due to her arthritis, that is exacerbating the problem.

If you can rule out the possible pain issue, then I'd treat it as a training problem. Whenever she starts to spook and/or buck, what you should try is taking one rein and bringing her nose around tight to the side...then bumping as hard as needed with that inside leg to disengage those hindquarters. That will take most the power away from her buck and take her mind off of whatever spooked her. Normally, I'll work a horse like that, in tiny little circles, until they are huffing and puffing and really wanting to stop.

Normally, a few sessions of that will make all but the most dedicated buckers stop trying to buck completely, regardless of the situation.


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## Fort fireman (Mar 5, 2011)

I ride my wifes dreesage horse in a wade tree saddle and a snaffle with mecate reins all the time. Shes even getting some neck reining when we are out riding the pastures from time to time. I like a versitile horse and so does my wife. Don't tell my wife but I've even put her on a couple cows.:shock:

Like SMROBS said , young western horses start out with direct reining so no biggie there.


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## ropinbiker (Aug 3, 2012)

To add to this...you can neck rein in a snaffle...I "school" all of my ropers with a snaffle as often as I can, but I still neck rein them while in the snaffle. So, used whatever bridle you wish, but as others have stated, if you do get a western headstall, get one with a browband. And, keep using the snaffle, neck rein or direct rein, or both. I actually teach all of my horses to neck rein while they are still in the snaffle.


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## womack29 (Oct 30, 2011)

I know numerous horse people that use a mix of English and western tack. I always say what works for you and your horse is what matters


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

iDressage said:


> I'd like to do some western crosstraining, but I really don't want to stray from the concepts of collection, bending, rounding, etc...


My question for you is: Why do you think western riding _doesn't _do anything with collection, bending, and rounding?

It does not matter what type of saddle or tack you have on your horse, the very basic principles are the SAME. A well-trained horse, English or Western, will be collected, rounded, soft, and responsive to their rider. 






Same as how correct posture in an English saddle will be similar to correct posture in a Western saddle, for the most part. Heel, hip, and ear still matter, although by design of the saddle, your weight may be back a bit more in a Western saddle. 

Now I'm primarily a Western rider, but can't you get a strap on an English saddle near the withers that serves a function of holding on when things get rough? Yes, a Western saddle is handy to hold yourself in better and have a saddle horn to grab onto, but I was under the impression you could get a strap for an English saddle too. 

I agree with smrobs that it would be good to figure out WHY your horse is bucking and/or unsure of themselves (spooky). Changing barns can always cause strange behavior in a horse, but it should still be something you need to consider. 

Do you know how to fit a Western saddle? If you horse would be bucking or acting up due to pain, and you add a poorly fit Western saddle to the mix, you could be inadvertantly creating more problems. Someone suggested buy a "cheap" western saddle, so I caution you to make sure the saddle is decent quality and fits your horse well, if you decide to get one. 

Just use your same snaffle and bridle. Ride your horse the same. You don't _have _to neck rein to ride in a Western saddle. But as someone else already pointed out, if your horse is truly well-trained to ride English, you should be able to neck rein already, since most of the cue in neck reining actually comes from your legs. 

Either way; don't worry about mix and matching different tack. I doubt anyone would care (I certainly wouldn't).


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Western riding does not normally value collection in the sense that dressage does. Collection is a short-duration thing for most western riding, and meant more to allow a quick turn than to lift the rider. Dressage is also ridden with the horse 'on the bit', which is not the norm for western riding. Heel-hip-ear alignment is quite optional for western riding, because it works best with the higher level of collection desired in dressage but not in western riding.

They are different approaches to riding. However, I'm not convinced western riding is any more secure than either a dressage or forward seat. If the horse hits the fan, so to speak, I'd like nothing more than my Australian-style saddle and a forward seat. That is what I'm used to, and when things turn bad, I think we all revert to what we've practiced the most. I don't use a dressage position, but I don't see how it would harm your ability to stay on a horse...


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

The longer you ride and keep horses the more similarities you see in disciplines. Honestly, the differences are more in the tack than in the reining. Correct cueing, collection, weight aids are identical for Dressage and Western Pleasure trail riding. It is only Yahoos who kick and race, yank at the bit, etc., and seem to imply that "Western" riding, which is derived from Spanish Gauchos, is different from "English."
Dressage is the modern day evolution of Military riding, and Cavalry always rode with the LH on both reins and the right hand on a weapon. So, their horses responded to direct and indirect riding, just like when you direct rein AND when you neck rein. Plus, aren't you supposed to exit a test on a loose rein?
I, too, see a problem in your bucking Dressage horse. This won't be safe on the trial in ANY saddle. Test out any Western saddles that you want to buy. Some are poorly made and darn uncomfortable. Have you considered getting a Steele saddle? It resembles a Western saddle with the horn on the swells, but is equally deep at the pommel and the cantle.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Corporal said:


> The longer you ride and keep horses the more similarities you see in disciplines. Honestly, the differences are more in the tack than in the reining. Correct cueing, collection, weight aids are identical for Dressage and Western Pleasure trail riding. It is only Yahoos who kick and race, yank at the bit, etc., and seem to imply that "Western" riding, which is derived from Spanish Gauchos, is different from "English."
> Dressage is the modern day evolution of Military riding...


Thanks for calling me a "_Yahoo who kick and race, yank at the bit, etc., and seem to imply that "Western" riding, which is derived from Spanish Gauchos, is different from "English._"

But you are simply wrong, and not just in insulting me and assuming I "_kick and race, yank at the bit, etc._" BTW - Mia would not tolerate such treatment, nor would I do it to her. I ride largely because I like Mia, and not for any great goal other than enjoying her company.

There is a huge difference between the use of reins in dressage (constant contact, desiring a vertical headset) and the use in western riding (slack reins, one hand, horse chooses its head position). I do not know how much more difference is possible! 

Western riding, as it is usually conceived of, came from Texas. It developed by uncounted thousands figuring out how to ride half-wild horses. The Spanish tradition remained in California, where ranches were stable and men owned their horses for many years. That tradition lives on in the bridle horse, but bridle horses are not the bulk of western riding.

Dressage did NOT come from military riding, and most cavalry units never adopted it because it was too hard on horses and wasn't useful to what cavalries did. Please refer to the following:

The Development of Modern Riding (VS Littauer)

American Military Horsemanship: The Military Riding Seat of the United States Cavalry, 1792 through 1944 (James Ottevaere)

Both are available on Amazon if anyone wants to know the truth.

Western riding does not involve yanking at the bit. But there is a huge difference between putting a horse on the bit, and NOT putting a horse on the bit. There is also a huge difference between using 'collection' to support a rider's weight, and using it for short times to help a horse turn. That is why western riders will often talk of teaching a 3 year old horse to collect in a month! It is a different form of collection, held for a different length of time, and used for a different purpose.

Saying that does not make me a yahoo. It is a demonstrable fact. The horse who is cutting shifts its weight to the rear, but NOT in the same way a dressage horse does. They are obviously different actions...obvious enough for a yahoo, I guess, but not a cultured rider...:-x


















Both involve a horse shifting weight to the rear, but not in the same manner or for the same reason. If noticing that places me in the ranks of "_Yahoos who kick and race, yank at the bit, etc., and seem to imply that "Western" riding, which is derived from Spanish Gauchos, is different from "English_", then so be it. This yahoo has eyes, and intends to use them, combined with reason and education in history instead of myth.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the OP wanting to continue her horse in a dressage tradition. But doing so doesn't require one to accept the fallacy that western riding and dressage are essentially the same. The OP, at least, understands the differences. The good news is she can change to a western saddle if she wishes, and still ride using many of the principles and continuing the training she desires from dressage. The horse will quickly adapt to the different tack, while she can continue to train him as she desires.

My long-suffering horse, being abused by a yahoo:


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

bsms said:


> Thanks for calling me a "_Yahoo who kick and race, yank at the bit, etc., and seem to imply that "Western" riding, which is derived from Spanish Gauchos, is different from "English._"


I was also taught growing up that Western riders are "Yahoos who kick and race, yank at the bit, etc."But the more I see of _good _Western riding, the more I think it might be the right way to go.

But this is a false dichotomy anyway because most English horses don't travel around nice and rounded all the time, or even some of the time.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

BSMS, I am SO SORRY!!! You misunderstood---REALLY!!!
I think that the OP and many others do not understand the value of teaching a horse to become a valuable animal to trail ride, and do NOT understand that neck reining and using a Western saddle with a snaffle bit and English-type headstall is the way that ALL of us end up riding at some point.
I MEANT that riding disciplines are not the *only* way to train a horse to be a useful mount.
I value ALL training that results in a useful riding horse, and I would be HAPPY to use you and your horses as a good example of this.
Please forgive me. I was not thinking of you at ALL, just the average backyard rider/horse owner who has NO respect for learning how to ride and train from an instructor or master, and demonstrates their lack of knowledge by kicking and yanking.
**Corporal begs for mercy!!**


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

****sigh****


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I apologize for my misunderstanding. 

I certainly agree that it is common for western riders, as well as English, to find themselves riding with a headstall that could be either western or English, using a snaffle bit and neck reining or simply using seat cues. All the folks I know who train western horses start with a snaffle, and many never switch to a curb - just as Trooper has never needed a curb bit. The lady I took western lessons from was a big fan of snaffles, and would not let a student ride in a curb. I see no reason a horse learning dressage couldn't use a western saddle and keep everything else the same. 

I am also not sure a western saddle is much more secure than a dressage one. I don't own a dressage saddle, but I would rate my Bates Caprilli as secure as my western saddle, although I think the Australian saddle is best for staying on when things go wrong. But even there, that impression may be because my rump has logged a lot more hours in an Aussie-style saddle than either English or western.

When I first joined the forum, I was surprised when maura wrote that she felt more secure in a jump saddle than a western one. Some years later, that makes a lot of sense to me, if one is used to a jump saddle. I'm trying to make the switch to using a western saddle, but I'm not really sure I feel any more secure in it than I do on an English saddle, and I feel less secure than in an Australian one!

In any case, I wish the OP the best of luck in sorting things out. And I apologize again for my misunderstanding, Corporal.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

have you heard of cowboy drssage ? western horses are taught collection, bending etc,
western horses are started in snaffles


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

bsms--I have to say, your post with the picture of "the abused horse ridden by the yahoo" made me laugh xD Oh my gosh, so cute...

I just wanted to toss in that I feel incredibly more secure in a jumping saddle than in a western one... But that's simply because it's what I am used to, and what I have pretty much always ridden in. There is security in the familiar xD


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

ponyboy said:


> I was also taught growing up that Western riders are "Yahoos who kick and race, yank at the bit, etc."But the more I see of _good _Western riding, the more I think it might be the right way to go.
> 
> But this is a false dichotomy anyway because most English horses don't travel around nice and rounded all the time, or even some of the time.


 Good riding is good riding, whether you strive to get high marks in the dressage arena or plod around on trails in a western saddle and curb bit, a good rider is _still _a good rider.

Unfortunately, there are way too many "yahoos" in both disciplines, IMHO.

I love the look of a horse that can collect up on a loose rein, but that doesn't mean that I can't appreciate a good dressage horse :wink:.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

bsms.. well said. we western people appreciate that. also, I have ridden in a wintec all purpose saddle and an English saddle, although I am simply a trail rider. 
I am no pro in either form of riding and the wintec ap dressage was comfy, i still prefer teh western saddle , and as kid you could not get me into a saddle.. bare back , and i would even jump hay bales etc .


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## iDressage (Sep 21, 2013)

Wow, this ended up being a much more interesting conversation than I had bargained for hahaha. 

Well, thank you for all of the advice, I really appreciate it.

I understand and appreciate everyone's concern for my horse's arthritis, but the buck was simply a behavioral "spook" and I am 99% positive it had nothing to do with her being in pain. We had just finished a long ride and I was cooling her off at a slow walk, and I think it was the first week or second week that we had been at the stable, so if she had bucked me off it would have been earlier in the ride... not at the end, after she was warmed up and comfortable. 

For now, I have decided to continue doing arena work and I've taken baby steps back onto the trail, actually in my dressage tack, by walking her halfway through one of the bridle paths (big step for me hahaha) and taking her into one of the paddocks to get her out of the arena. I'm hoping that when the spring comes, with nicer weather and better footing, hopefully my confidence will come around and we can do more on the trail and out of the arena. 

Thank you for all of your opinions and thoughtful responses. Happy (almost) New Year!


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