# Anxious TB Mare won't stop fussing with bit/her mouth when worked



## Joysthe14me (Dec 29, 2013)

First off, I'm sorry this is a long read. I feel that the backstory on my horse is important in her behavior.

I have a 7 year old TB/Appy mare that I have now owned for a little over a year. I worked with her when she was a 4yr old and belonged to a student of mine. Since I have known her, this mare will fuss with her mouth when she gets anxious/upset/ or stubborn (meaning not wanting to do something). 

Against our advice one of our students bought this green 4yr old for their 12yr old daughter...who had just learned to sit her canter as a btw. She had some professional training for western pleasure, or so they had been told. For a 4yr old TB-X she was very laid back and calm, but she was still only 4 and wanted to do silly stuff. She was too much horse for this student. So they hired me to put a few more miles on her and get her to a point that the student could ride her more safely and hopefully be able to show in dressage. So I worked with this horse for about 8 months a few times a week until the family moved out of state, part of that time at their place, then the last half at my barn until they could arrange for her to be with them. Having her at my place I really got to know her and connected with her. 

What I noticed was from the very beginning, she was really fussy with the bit (a full cheek snaffle). Upon examining her mouth, she had teeth coming in. So I assumed that the gums were sore and the bit was irritating the mouth. No big deal, I switched to a hackamore to allow her teeth to come in. Well she loved the hackamore, much more quiet but she would still bite at the shanks and chew on the reins. 

So she leaves us as a 5yr old to a supposed nice facility with a dressage trainer. Didnt hear a peep about her other than she had made the trip in one piece. Two years later and we get a call from the owners of this mare asking if we knew of anyone who might want her. Their daughter wasnt interested anymore and they were tired of paying board. They were 14hrs away from us but only 2 hours away from a horse friend of mine. The owner said she was ridden maybe for 4months after she arrived down in FL. So she had been sitting for a little over 1.5yrs. 
They had also moved her to a different facility that was cheaper since the girl wasnt riding her anymore. So I get my friend in contact with the owner because I left this horse were she should have been able to do training level dressage tests with decent scores, and it shouldnt take long to be able to get her going again and rehome her. My friend was going to give her a refresher and sell her for the owners. When my friend went and got her, she was in a terrible state. She was in south FL with not shelter. Her bay coat was bleached out (seriously, the ended of her mane and tail are blonde as they can be), she had massive bug bite welts on her whole body, she had swished her tail off to the point that it was just a few inches longer than her dock, nobody had done any farrier work on her feet, and she was slightly underweight. Her feet were a constant battle when I was working with her as she has one club foot and the other front foot has no heel. So without the hoof care, her hooves were overgrown. She had stomped so much that she had abscesses just blowing out all over. The club foot pancaked out and was 2 whole sizes bigger than it should have been! So needless to say, she needed to recover before being worked with. She wouldnt have brought $500 in the shape she was in. The owner admits he hadnt been out to see her since she was moved to that place. Makes me so mad. Anyways, the owner didnt want to pay my friend board for the horse to recover and not be in training. He just wanted her gone. So my friend called me up and told me the deal and I agreed to buy her and give her the home she deserved. I at least actually knew what training she had in her. 

So now Mya is my personal horse. It has taken a while to get her feet grown out past the abscesses but they have. At first it seemed that she was not too messed up from were I had left her. She had some reservations about going back to being worked but I figured once she was into a routine again she would settle. Turns out I was wrong

I have no idea what happened to her but she now has some bad habits. All these things below that I mention she didnt do when I had her the first time. 
The first month she was here if you raised your voice at her she would toss her head up in response like somebody had smack her. That has since gone away but she gets upset if you raise your voice and does the mouth thing instead. She gets real nasty about being saddled or having her blanket put on. She threatens with the nastiest face, occasionally biting at the air or what ever is in front of her. She spooks sideways at absolutely nothing when she gets tired and decides she is done. For example, we'll have been working in the ring for 30mins and I ask her to do something harder like a canter circle or just to trot on the rail, and if she is tired she becomes this other horse that is suddenly terrified of invisible monsters, like another horse sneezing, or a jump laid up against the rail...all things she had earlier been working quietly by. She now gets really upset in the trailer if its standing still. 

And then there is the thing she does with her mouth.

Now, I have addressed the other issues and we work on them daily and have made great improvement by way of positive reinforcement and repetition. She seems to be a pattern horse, just really set in these bad patterns and because she is unfortunately not the brightest pebble on the beach, it is taking her forever to figure anything out. So I am not asking for suggestions with her other issues because I have them mostly resolved. The only one that I cannot make any progress with is her mouthiness.

Mya will fuss with her mouth, like chew, move her jaw left and right, and put things in her mouth when she gets nervous or doesnt want to do something. Sometimes her tongue goes out as well. This is not just a bit problem. She does this with the hackamore, she does this with the halter, she does this loose in the round pen or in the pasture. I have tried several bits, from mullen mouths to french links, to copper inlays, and we have settled on a nice d-ring snaffle which as far as bits go she is the quietest with. I have had her teeth checked and they didnt show any signs of why she is doing this from a physical aspect, I have had my saddle checked and reflocked so that it fits her, I have tried riding her with a padded figure 8 noseband thinking if she learned that she can work with her mouth shut that would be the new pattern but instead she rubbed the hair off of her face within 2 weeks of using it because she fought with it. I have tried making her go forward or do anything to make her work when she starts to fuss, I has tried using the crop on the shoulder when she starts to bite the air, I have longed her with the bridle on but the lead hooked to a halter and not affecting the bit at all with no change, I have given her a supplement for anxiety. 

The most response has come from riding her on a loose rein with a western style headstall so there is no noseband or with the hackamore, being better having other horses in the ring. I have her walking on very light contact most the time without chewing. She wont trot or canter without chewing unless I give her something to think about or I have her on the supplement. I have seen her make the same faces when in the pasture and something spooks her or a horse makes a face at her. Sometimes she does it after eating hay when I go to bring her in to work her. She does it the most when she is being worked in the ring. For as spooky as she has been in the ring, she is very laid back and curious about things outside the ring. Has been excellent on trail rides minus she jumped over water instead of walking through it. 

I'd like to be able to ride her and her work quietly on the bit. I show hunter and would like her to learn to work on contact and collected but I cannot do that until she has accepted the bit working on a loose rein, or even no rein first. I feel like i've hit a wall. I've never had this issue training a horse so i'm not sure how to deal with it. My mare isnt very clever and she does not catch on to things quickly. So i'm being patient and as positive for her as I can but I think she has some sort of PTSD from whatever happened when she was gone plus whatever her first bit experience was. She is such a sensitive creature, and normally very responsive but this anxiety about working i'm not sure how to fix. I've tried everything in my bag of training tricks that has worked for the other horses i have trained. 

Suggestions? Anybody have a horse that had the same sort of issues?

I have a video of it somewhere I can post up if that will help


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

This behaviour can also be an indicator of ulcers.


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## Joysthe14me (Dec 29, 2013)

I've thought of that but she doesnt act like anything gut related is bothering her. We have a TB cross gelding as a lesson horse and he gets ulcers when he has to stay in his paddock and not be turned out to the pasture every day and his medicine helps him alot because he gets cranky, indicates his belly bothers him if you go to touch it and will have more watery manure than normal. Mya doesnt care about her belly being with unless its a girth (but you can brush there no problem) and her manure is normal. The supplement helps alot other than it makes her flirty with all the other horses. It wouldnt hurt for me to try to get some of the ulcer medicine in her...if I can get her to eat it (picky eater). Aren't TB's more prone to stressing and getting ulcers or am I wrong with that thinking?


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## SullysRider (Feb 11, 2012)

Sounds like ulcers to me too, some horses exhibit sign differently, but if she were mine she'd be being treated for ulcers. My gelding likes putting things in his mouth, but nothing like you're describing with her. I know you said you had her teeth checked but did they actually do them? With sedation and a speculum? Some horses just will also play with their mouth, but I would think you could get to her quiet down. I would say make sure her teeth are always up to date (maybe even done twice a year since she seems fussy) and ride through it. Don't fuss with her face, put a soft bit in like a french link, in a loose ring so there's not much to mess with her face (like full cheek cheekpieces), have soft forgiving hands and ignore it. If she starts fussing push her into the bridle by getting her motor going and her pushing from behind, if she's working/engaging then she might not pay as much attention to her face and quiet down.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Have you tried a bit with a roller...something like this? I've never been around a horse with ulcers, so I know nothing about their symptoms. I do have a horse who likes to play with a roller when either nervous or bored.


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## Sunda (Jul 20, 2010)

My horse went from good to terrible as he was being trained. Turns out, his teeth floating had been done incorrectly. His TMJ joint was inflamed and the muscle was atrophied from the jaw swinging too far out because his front teeth came down in front like a smile. He was reacting from pain. Pain makes them do crazy things. I would have your horse's teeth checked by a good dentist who knows what they are doing. Could be ulcers, too. But obviously the horse is in pain. Pain should always be considered when a horse behaves badly: check feet, back, teeth, joints (and ulcers).


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

I definitely think its worth scoping her for ulcers or just going ahead and treating her like she has them. The air-biting thing definitely says ulcers to me because the three horses that I know of who had ulcers all bit the air when their ulcers were acting up...especially after eating or when being ridden/tacked. One of those three was a big OTTB mare who was probably the most symptomatic. She started looking unthrifty at first, then downright terrible as she stopped eating and lost weight. She'd often stand there and work her jaw when she was working, and I'm not sure why. She also would stick her tongue out and actually keep it there, pushed out to the side, when being worked while she had ulcers. I never linked it to the ulcers but come to think if it, she stopped once they were healed.

The second was a Quarter Pony mare who's only symptom was EXTREME girthiness and cranky expressions when being ridden (especially at a canter). The girthy problem started with her just biting the air and I thought she was just being a grump, but then she started actually latching onto and digging her teeth into the wooden post in front of her when being saddled, and sometimes wincing. That's when I knew there was something wrong. She wasn't scoped for ulcers since that's what I was 90% it was, but a month after starting treatment she stopped biting the air and was quiet again.

The third was another TB, but she was a filly. She was orphaned young, then started looking unthrifty. Pretty soon she started showing signs of cribbing, but not the typical "chewing on wood from boredom" cribbing. She's grab things, usually wire- and bite down hard but not take a gulp of air or chew- just bite hard. She actually ended up breaking two teeth doing it, and it progressed into windsucking as she got older. At 6 months she was checked for ulcers, had them, and was treated. She did decrease her cribbing but unlike the other horses, she never stopped. When I sold her as a 2 year old she still bit down on things and windsucked, especially when nervous/not sure what I wanted. 

All of that said to say that although your mare isn't showing any other traditional signs of ulcers, it might be worth medicating her for them and seeing if she does any better. There are also feed modifications that can be made (feeding small amounts of alfalfa as a buffer, feeling less or no concentrated feeds, slow feeding hay all day, etc) to help her out if that is the problem. Two of the three horses I talked about had no problem with me brushing/rubbing their bellies either, but definitely minded being saddled. 

Other than that, I'm not really sure. I do want to just thank you for taking the poor gal in though. Who knows where she would have ended up if it wasn't for you?


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## Joysthe14me (Dec 29, 2013)

I had her teeth floated by my vet. She said they werent bad at all, let me even reach up and feel around. No points or rough spots. So i'm pretty sure its not her teeth. 

She does not like the french link, and really does not like copper. I have tried so many bits guys, its not even funny. D-ring with copper rollers, full cheek french link with a smaller middle piece but it was also copper, a eggbutt french link, the mullen mouth, regular full cheek snaffle, regular d-ring snaffle. I have tried a few snaffles with the mouth piece being bigger or smaller. I have even played with having the bit higher and lower in her mouth. The d-ring snaffle has been by far her favorite. 

I ride out of her mouth all the time anyways so its not me being handsy. I have her trained by body ques and can ride her around with just a halter if I want. So we work on contact but its light contact, not collection, just me following her her head so she realizes that the bit isnt going to hurt her. 

I've tried pushing her forward when she makes the faces. She may stop chewing for a step or too, just long enough to push herself forward a notch but goes right back to it. I've actually had her, loose reins, walking, trip and fall on her knees because she is so busy chewing. 

If I dont have the bit in, say i have her in a hackamore or i have her tied up with her halter, she will put a rein in her mouth and hold it and slightly chew on it (she used to really chew on it when it was leather so i have switched to biothane rein which I guess doesnt taste so appealing). If she is tied, she'll put the lead rope in her mouth and hold it. When I get her shod, when she gets tired of standing there (she only has her front feet done so she isnt standing there for very long), she will reach over and grab the brushes off the shelf next to her, the rubber curries are her favorite and she hold them in her mouth for up to 2mins.

She also does that tongue thing were after some of the chewing she pushes it out like she has something caught in her throat even though she hasnt been eating.

I think it could potentially be a ulcer but I also think part of it is habit. I gave her a little of the ulcer meds we have for the lesson horse yesterday and she actually really liked it. That still only treats a symptom. 

I want her to want to work with me. I want her to enjoy what she is doing as a job. I'm willing to change around what I do as far as competitions for her because showing isnt very important to me since i've been doing it for 20 years but at the same time I want to train her to be at a level that if I just felt like going off to a show I could. Right now it looks like hunter paces might be our thing. 

There is clearly something going on and if something is hurting her I want to fix it. Some days are better than others. Some days she just chews but doesnt seem bothered and other days she chews and acts grumpy. Some lucky days she hardly does a thing although those days tend to be with the hackamore.

Here's a video I took yesterday of her and the bit. Note she stops if she is distracted by something. She chewed alot yesterday from tack up through her trot warm up and then hardly did a thing with her mouth after that. 






I'm going to try the Ulcer meds and see how that goes. Thanks guys


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

I'm not sure if I'm seeing things, but the bit looks like it should be on a higher setting.. it seems really loose


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## Joysthe14me (Dec 29, 2013)

Skyseternalangel said:


> I'm not sure if I'm seeing things, but the bit looks like it should be on a higher setting.. it seems really loose


yes, depending on how she moves her mouth it will hang and look loose. When she stops chewing however her lips have 2 wrinkles already and everything inside her mouth looks normal. I have put it up higher which and it didnt make a difference in her behavior. So i'd rather her have it pulling less on the sides of her mouth. I also considered maybe it was hanging that way because the mouthpiece was too big but yet again it looks normal when she isnt chewing. There isnt excess. This is also part of me playing with different bits, I thought perhaps it was hitting some part in her mouth that is uncomfortable. :/ 

Also, keep in mind she does this without the bit when she is ridden; bitting and chewing at the air. That's why I dont think its a bit problem


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## EmilyJoy (Dec 30, 2011)

If it were me, and this were my horse, providing health issues were ruled out, I would put that bit and bridle (take the reins off) on and leave it on for a day or so(checking so that it isn't rubbing). I would let that horse eat drink and sleep with that bit in her mouth until she thinks it belongs there.

Just my $0.02


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

hmmm...its very odd how she sticks her tongue out like that, and that she does it even without the bit. Not even my two year old mouths as much as she does.

This is completely a shot in the dark since I've never dealt with this, but has she ever had her throat scoped to make sure there isn't anything...I don't know...loose, scar tissued, growing, etc along that entire region? Maybe if there is something there she is feeling like something is 'tickling' that area, and that is why she constantly chews and thrusts her tounge. You know, like when we get an itch on the far back roof of our mouth/upper throat, and can sometimes get relieve from thrusting our tongues up from the back and forwards?

I forget what you said...did she do this before she left for out of state? Even if she didn't, you might have her throat checked...it could always be a new development. You could even have an ulcer scope done while you're at it and "kill two birds with one stone."

I really feel like this isn't a bit issue.


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## Joysthe14me (Dec 29, 2013)

Endiku said:


> I forget what you said...did she do this before she left for out of state? Even if she didn't, you might have her throat checked...it could always be a new development.


She did do this when she was 4, but she also had canines coming in so I assumed her mouth bugged her which is why I switched to riding with the hackamore. She also was not as bad then as she is now.


Sorry the quality isnt great. Cell phone video. This is after I had longed her, with the bit up higher. As seen, no improvement. I took one of her trotting but the quality is so poor it's too hard to see what she is doing with her jaws






After I set Mya loose, I haltered up my other mare to take her to the barn to get ready for a lesson and Mya followed us to the gate doing this. Other than the chewing she was not visual upset. My interpretation is that she was anxious that her buddy was leaving her. She had her other pasture-mate still in the pasture so she was not alone but my other mare and her are fast friends. 

This is why I think she does it when she gets stressed or anxious (which is also why I think the ulcers is a good possibility).


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