# Shady trainer, Horse Illegally Sold - What Can I Do?



## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Hm....it's not uncommon for a horse to be sold without papers but the trainer that is super helpful but backpedels and refuses to actually help is pretty sketchy sounding.


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

@Yogiwick - so i'm not going crazy.. He just suddenly pulled the plug and is calling me ungrateful! Im not going to illegally forge a bill of sale and notarize it. It's a lot to ask to speculate what is going on, though.

He has access to the papers, at least I think he does, but according to the JC i need papers to register her as retired from racing. We also have warmblood Broodmare inspections coming up in sept and i'd prefer more options than oldenburg.

Could this just be as simple as tax evasion that he doesn't want uncovered? I mean that's his problem not mine...

I think he's trying to also protect me from something. He refuses to put me in contact with the main owner, claiming she "will not help me" and gets defensive and upset whenever I bring up her name in our conversations.

Anyone else experienced this with track trainers? Had no idea it would be this difficult.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

Over the years we have gotten 2 Thoroughbreds and 1 Standardbred straight off the track and in each instance the owners gave us the papers but refused to sign a transfer because they didn't want the horses raced again. No bill of sale because they were free. In essence they became grade horses and just because the papers weren't in our name didn't mean they weren't ours.


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## ThistleRidge (Aug 3, 2010)

I recently bought a OTTB and the papers I got were signed 
but the previous owner had crossed out the entire front with a big "X"
and initialed across the front, 
*NOT FOR RACING. *
A gelding, so who really cares but nice to have.


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

Seems like your only shot is to get in touch with whoever the JC has recorded as owner. Since the trainer is a dead end, I would not bother with him again. Instead, see if the owner has any other horses registered to her and if they happen to be in training somewhere (and hope it's not with the shady trainer). Maybe you can make contact with her that way. Since you don't want to race the mare, hopefully she will be willing to sign a transfer and bill of sale (give her $1 for the horse, just so you have something official on paper).


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

Papers in your name is not the same as having ownership, as you've discovered. My older mare is not registered in my name because a couple of owners back wouldn't transfer her papers to the next owner when they sold her. I've been told that's so no one would breed her, but who knows. Personally, I think that's a really *****y thing to do to a horse, but I've learned on here that holding papers is pretty common, sadly.

You may just have to let go of getting her registered in your name.


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## SketchyHorse (May 14, 2012)

Holding papers is _super_ common with OTTBs. Many track trainers will do this so the horse can not be raced again. Technically by not having her papers she is considered "retired from racing" - it's a common practice unfortunately even though they now have that nifty option to register them retired :shrug:

I'm not sure if there's a way around getting the papers without the previous owner signing a transfer. JC does offer a DNA test so you can confirm that IS the horse. I was going to do this with my OTTB as I also got her without papers & was considering taking her through some WB breed approvals. I'm not 100% positive if this will allow you to be able to request new papers with just your current bill of sale. 

I like phantom's idea - you can always check with the JC too & see what contact information they have on file (if they'll give it to you).


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

To me, that trainers attitude is *not* shady.
It is the attitude of someone who cared enough about the animal to get it off the track where it did not want to be, potentially before it got injured or because of injury.
Jockey Club papers not given takes away any worth of the animal as breeding stock.
It should also take away the ability to race the horse. I'm not positive but trainers do not need to "own" the horse to race it...they are under contract to perform a service...training.
Because the horse was "given" away also can be because the horse was insured. If the insured horses policy was collected upon, the insurance company can require the papers in their possession for disposal.
Racing insurance is different than other types of horse insurance some hold.

I've had many a fine horse come through the barns I worked at directly from the track...
The horse was "dumped" as some just won't run, wasn't the personality or liked by the animal.
We also had many come through our barn that had a injury that stopped a career instantly...
Those animals were given a new chance on life instead of being run through a sale...and we know what can happen to many of those sale animals...:frown_color:

If you know the horses name, can read her lip tattoo then you have all the information needed to find out what she did, what she didn't do and what her past is...
You probably will never see her papers if she was given away by the trainer, then sold by someone else to you...yes, I can see the information portal suddenly closed.
If they wanted her papers to go with her they would of been provided...

There is a saying, *"You can't ride papers"....*
Enjoy the horse, do a search for her by her racing name if you need to know her past.
Getting "more" could of been her death sentence...if the papers are surrendered to the JC, then to my knowledge she is declared dead although may be walking and doing great, but as racing/breeding blood is recognized as gone.
You not holding those papers also did the same thing...:|
:runninghorse2:....
_jmo..._


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

We also purchased a mare that the previous owner held the papers on. When I contacted the owner it was a very nice older woman who refused to give us the papers because she had retired from riding and wanted a momento of her last horse. So we got a steal of a deal on a registered 15yr old MFT that because she was grade and the people we were buying her from were divorcing and never pursued her papers in the 9 months they owned her I got her for $625! Best horse ever!


for you since you seem to want to breed your mare I would talk to the Jockey Club - sometimes the registries will contact the last known owner on the papers and help you out.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Sellers do withhold papers if they can't get what they want in terms of money for the horse but when that happens they still give you a legal bill of sale, any breeding isn't mentioned and to all intents and purposes the horse is no longer a pedigree but nothing illegal has been done
That isn't the same thing as someone stealing a horse and then selling it or selling a horse that was maybe just loaned to them without the permission or knowledge of the real owner, they will often hold the papers but will have no proof that they bought the horse (that once happened to us)
If you want this horses papers and in your name then your only option is to contact the original owner, the one last recorded on the papers, and then cross the bridges as they come along.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

I don’t really think it’s that shady myself. People can sell a horse as grade for whatever reason they choose. Maybe they don’t want their name attached to the horse. There are a few reasons they could have chosen to sell her as grade. You bought her as a grade horse, so maybe you should just be happy with her as one.


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

@horselovinguy - i see... this is very important information and i thank you for posting it. It was strange that the trainer went from super helpful to super not helpful, when "an" owner (like i said there were 3) got involved. He connected us through email and when I sent them the drafted statement of lost papers both of them got extremely upset, despite asking me to create them. Trainer wanted to be mentioned nowhere on the document, and the owner didn't want the price of the horse mentioned either, nor that she was sold. I'm not explaining it right but horselovinguy is probably right in that they disposed of her discreetly. I"ll admit that, like he said, the info portal is closed and it's looking like as of right now the answers to my questions cannot be found. Maybe in years to come i can take up the search again.

The entire situation upon buying this horse was filled with lies, so understandably I am suspicious of anyone who claims anything relating to her as no information that has been orally provided has been true. we know this because her current vet records contradict the old owner's records - again, seller needed to sell and took advantage of a gullible buyer (me).

I don't want to bother the trainer anymore. He's obviously upset about something and I told him I appreciate his help but that I need to go through legal channels, so we ended correspondence there. He has no desire to see my horse in person despite multiple invitations (he only lives an hour away). He wants nothing to do with her progress, isn't interested in how she is doing, etc etc etc. But he was like her human dad so it's hard for me to accept that he's basically disowned her. This trainer has a GOOD reputation at the track so the fact that he is suddenly being so difficult is hurtful... especially when I want him to know his "losing" mare is in a forever and happy home, and loved unconditionally.

I know nothing about the track life or attitudes. I've read a lot but that doesn't come close to real world experience. Her papers were important in getting her registered in the Holsteiner mare book but it's not a do or die, just something i'd like for her to be able to fall back on. I located some barns who specialize in breeding and rearing baby horses. I'd love to keep a foal out of his mare.

Most of all, I want to retire her from racing. She's not officially retired on the JC website. Trainer dodges this comment whenever I bring it up. I really, really, want her off the eligible race list. Final nail in the coffin, as it were.

Farrier said he would LOVE to know more about her so that we can work on her hind end issues. we know as much as we know in the present day but discovering how she got injured could really, really help figure out what he needs to do, shoe wise, to support her. We're not sure if it's KS or a calcification, that's going to take x rays but we could have had a better shot at what the most likely culprit is if we knew, in fact, she fell or was otherwise injured in her back somewhere down the line. Alas, that information is not available.

Just sad... guess parts of the horse world aren't as cuddly and mushy as I thought.


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

@jaydee, thanks jaydee. The trainer does not want me to come in contact with the registered owner at all and was continually asking why I was at all interested in talking to her, when he claimed he said "numerous times" she would not help me and it was worthless to keep mentioning her?

Can someone give me some insight? I know, after this horse, the owners and the trainer cut ties. It was a bad fallout from what he described but he's pretty discrete so I've had to read in between the lines, but I am sure there is a "track life" explanation on why he might be trying to prevent me from contacting original owner?


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

thecolorcoal said:


> Can someone give me some insight? I know, after this horse, the owners and the trainer cut ties. It was a bad fallout from what he described but he's pretty discrete so I've had to read in between the lines, but I am sure there is a "track life" explanation on why he might be trying to prevent me from contacting original owner?


The only one who knows what occurred between "owner" and trainer is them...
To speculate would be wrong and probably you would err in your guess.
If you asked information of the trainer and were told you would receive no more...
Me, I would_ leave it alone._
There is more to the story.
The bottom line though is you are not going to get anymore information from the man, he will not put you in contact with the person who has the papers and you trying to get them could bring much grief on your head...and heartache.
You bought a grade horse, period.
You liked her enough then to buy her "as is...grade".

As for your farrier...get some current films done of her for a evaluation.
Hocks, knees, ankles...if you think she has issues higher take her to a college/university or race-track veterinary operation for the harder films to be shot and a eval by special vets done. Have them consult and tell your farrier how to shoe the animal...
_Did you not have her vetted when you bought her?_
You should have a report of findings that if there was a issue then it was noted...
If there was no issue then, then the farrier is dealing with "now" and you know the answers for that which occurred under your care.

If you are searching for her papers to make her a acceptable special registry potential broodmare...her conformation to me would need to be exemplary and near fault-free if she must be presented and graded to gain admittance.
If she has issues, I would _not _breed. 
Good breeders put the best of the best together to make a superior horse,_ hopefully.
_Money alone does not always open the door to a superior animal and breeding...you need the quality in the mare too. And still you can have a train-wreck.
You don't intentionally breed a horse with weaknesses physical or mental... you look to enhance offspring. That starts with a sound horse, very well built body and of good mind.

_It is all your decision..._
But if the man is telling you no more information, to leave it alone and you continue to dig...you dig your own set of problems to endure.
Enjoy your horse.
If you want to breed her, then do it.
Breed to what ever will breed to a grade mare and a mare that may have issues the way suddenly now the farrier is searching for information {?}..._that to me is a red flag of weaknesses and you don't breed weaknesses intentionally.

_ Good luck, but heed that trainers warning given..
_Leave It Alone...._
Love the horse for what she is, *yours!*
:runninghorse2:....
_jmo..._


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

I am with @horselovinguy your efforts are just making it more difficult for other TB's in the future. The racing industry is known for dumping horses with no papers - probably so they cannot be raced again. The trainer does not "care" about your mare because she was never a pet to him - he (if he is the one) tried to help her out by getting her off the track so she could find a good home and not end up on a meat truck. Your harassing him may make him think differently next time. I personally question the quality of this mare if she were "dumped" with no papers. If she were any type of quality the trainer could have found her a broodmare home or a home with a trainer to prepare her for a show career.


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

thecolorcoal said:


> I don't want to bother the trainer anymore. He has no desire to see my horse in person despite multiple invitations (he only lives an hour away). He wants nothing to do with her progress, isn't interested in how she is doing, etc etc etc. But he was like her human dad so it's hard for me to accept that he's basically disowned her. This trainer has a GOOD reputation at the track so the fact that he is suddenly being so difficult is hurtful..


What makes you think the trainer ever felt like "her human dad?"

The trainer has a good reputation for what? Training winners? Not running lame horses? Paying his staff without issue? I have worked with several trainers I would consider good and I can't imagine they would go visit a horse that left their shedrow years before. Training racehorses is a business and people know better than to get attached, as horses come and go frequently. That doesn't make them bad trainers (or grooms or exercise riders); its just reality. Its also not uncommon for trainers to be part owners, so that doesn't change anything either.

You don't need papers to be able to show your mare, so just enjoy her and try not to worry about things you can't change. While having a medical history could be helpful, it doesn't sound like that is going to happen. Instead, focus on the horse in front of you and get diagnostics as needed to address current concerns.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

thecolorcoal said:


> @*jaydee*, thanks jaydee. The trainer does not want me to come in contact with the registered owner at all and was continually asking why I was at all interested in talking to her, when he claimed he said "numerous times" she would not help me and it was worthless to keep mentioning her?
> 
> Can someone give me some insight? I know, after this horse, the owners and the trainer cut ties. It was a bad fallout from what he described but he's pretty discrete so I've had to read in between the lines, but I am sure there is a "track life" explanation on why he might be trying to prevent me from contacting original owner?


 In this situation I disagree with the member that said that contacting the owner could be somehow detrimental to the future of other OTTB's. If the trainer was honest and transparent he would have no concerns at all about you getting in touch with original owner. When that sort of thing happens it generally means that something underhand took place. The horse was maybe mis-sold in some way.
I do think that you need to be cautious though because the outcome might not end well for you.
I know someone in the UK who bought a nice TB from a woman who had its papers but as it turned out didn't own the horse but had been loaned it several years previously by someone who then lost touch with the horse as the person loaning it moved several times. When the buyer wanted to know more about the horse's history she did what you are thinking of doing now and found herself in the middle of a court battle where the horse ended up back with its real owner and she was left struggling to get her money back from the person who sold it to her.
We nearly found ourselves in the same situation. Fortunately for us we'd already met the actual owner of the Arabian we had on loan for two years so knew he didn't belong to the person who suddenly wanted to sell him to us for a lot of money and when we declined they tried to sell him to someone else right off our yard. We only lost the cost of the keeping and training a horse we'd thought we'd have forever but that went to court and didn't end well for us as the real owner decided to take the horse back and we just had some small compensation for the money we'd spent on him


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

@jaydee, that's what I am worried about. She's a very well-bred horse. She also has exemplary racing conformation, but like horselovinguy said that doesn't always equal sport horse conformation. At the same time, function > form. All I know is after racing the trainer "gave" her away to a friend to train as an eventer, and the rest of the story is described in my other posts.

I am concerned that this horse was somehow illegally removed from the active racing list, most likely to avoid her going to auction considering the trainer tells me he really did like her. I also don't understand why my searching for my horse's past would be "detrimental" to other ottb's? I'm not savvy in the racing industry; I thought it was more honest than this but apparently I'm wrong on that, too. 

Very scary situation for you jaydee... why are people so disonest?!


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Most OTTBs are "well bred," meaning they all have bloodlines going back to famous and fast racehorses. This can make them desirable to breed for short term racing soundness but undesirable to breed for a long term, hardy horse for sport. So are you trying for a young horse to race several years, or a successful and sound sport horse? 

Here's an article about breeding TBs for sport:
Morningside Stud

I agree with others that have said there often is a genetic reason for soundness issues that crop up. Unless you are certain that is not the case, it would be better in my opinion not to breed. Even a fairly young horse that has been in an accident would give me pause. Often things like tripping, falling, or tendon problems can be related to structural issues or genetic issues such that can cause problems for horses if bred on. Things such as RER or other muscle myopathies, early DSLD, or conformation that doesn't balance or line up can cause horses to get injuries that can seem like just accidents at first. A friend of mine discovered her horse had DSLD after a couple of "accidents" that caused tendon injuries.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

thecolorcoal said:


> Very scary situation for you jaydee... why are people so disonest?!


 I don't know why people are dishonest but in the horse industry its sadly common which is why I always push that its very 'buyer beware' when anyone is horse hunting.
In the case of the one person I mentioned I could sort of see her point because she has taken the horse straight from racing and put in all of the work to turn it into a nice riding horse that could also do some showing or jumping but the owner had trusted her to always give it a good home that she would have control over so it never ended up doing the rounds of the auctions until it one day went for meat. It was pre. current restrictions on passported horses so chances of that happening were high
In the other case there was no justification as the woman who loaned him to me had only kept him for a few months and he terrified her. She should have returned him to his owner rather than tell lies.


In your case, unless you are wanting to breed for racing you're better off leaving things alone. Having more info won't make a foal bred from a racing mare more valuable if you're wanting to breed a competition horse.
You'd do better to just focus on producing her as a mare that is worthy of breeding a sport horse prospect from


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

Thanks for your support Jaydee, I have found a handful of "newer" warmblood registries who will take unpapered TB mares in their inspections, so that's a relief. You're right, unless I wanted a racing foal her papers probably are worth nothing. 

It's a bummer, but that's how the chips fall.


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