# ARRRRRG turnout.



## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

It sucks that he has to stay in for something as silly as "He's hard to catch".
Maybe you could say "Hey, why not give it a try to turn him out in the pasture?" Maybe say you could help catch him?

My horses unfortunantly my horses have to stay in longer than I want the to... It's because Nobody is home to watch them be outside until I get home from school. But they do get out LOL


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## PumpkinzMyBaby22 (Jul 5, 2009)

Yes, I agree with Ray. Suggest letting him out into the pasture more and that he will become more pleasant and eventually easier to catch. Explain that horses need turnout and interaction and if her horse is not allowed that he is only going to get worse. 
I wish you and her horse the best of luck!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I think with the way horses are kept in stalls most of the time in this modern world, that a lot of people have come to think that is normal. They think of horses as like cats or dogs, who might LIKE to have a nice cozy room to be in, with nice warm blankets, wraps on their legs and whatnot. They have no real knowledge of the horse as a real "animal", like one you might watch about on a nature show. It's like people who think food comes from a grocery store! There's a disconnect.
When I tell my non horsey friends about the herding behavior of horses, and their behavior changes with hormones/seasons, and the stratified nature of horse life, they are amazed that horses have such a complex life. They just think of them as standing waiting patiently in a boxstall with nothing on their minds , like a machine.

Horses that have no herd life or experience are really just shadows of what a full horse is. We have reduced them to that, for our convenieince!


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

I agree, they need to be horses. I also agree that vices like cribbing stem from being stalled and lack of exercise. My mares & pony gelding stay out 24\7 with a lean-to, studs, training horses, my yearling & very prego mare all come in at night. They need to be horses and socialize. My youngest stud was kept in a box for the 1st 3 years of his life by previous owner, I can attest to the issues being stalled can create. I'm proud to say he is now a well-behaved baby doll. It was fun to see him get to play outside the first time, the poor guy had never had a fresh blade of grass!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

I sympathize with you, Levade; it's maddening to have to witness these poor horses suffer more each day!

Do what you can, is all I can say! Good luck to you & these poor horsjes!


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I agree 110%!

I think stabling originated when horses were used for work. They didn't get overly rambunctious because they were worked almost every day for long hours. People weren't really thinking of their mental well-being, they were work animals. And they got out of the stall for riding/driving all the time anyway. 

Nowadays, the majority of horses don't get nearly enough exercise so they go stir-crazy. 

I am all for keeping them in as big an area as feasible and in a herd if possible.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Wow, that's a terrible reason not to turn a horse out. Purely to evade a problem that deserves addressing in itself.

My girl is turned out 24/7 and I couldn't even imagine the fire breathing dragon that would greet me if I were to have her stalled, she loves nothing more than to run and play with her pasture buddies!

I must admit that I do have pangs of jealousy when I take Bobbie to a show with a sunbleached coat and various scratches all over her and we are surrounded by immaculately presented show-room horses. I comfort myself in the knowledge that all the horses at shows are most likely jealous of Bobbie's more rough and tumble existence. But really, could you deny a horse of this tranquility:









I love the look on Bobbie's face in that pic, it is the look when she has just recognised that it is me and is about to start walking towards me. 

Side note: Bobbie is a horse that was difficult to catch in the beginning and still won't let most people catch her, she's pretty defiant when she wants to be. Being hard to catch is annoying but something that can be dealt with given time and patience. These days when she sees me coming up the driveway she is usually at the gate waiting for me before I have had a chance to get a headstall :wink:


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## Levade (Apr 13, 2011)

Sarahver, that's such a beautiful photo and sums up what I'm trying to say!!

Tinylily, I think you have it right, it's like people just don't click! Remember all the outcry we had a while ago about keeping caged big cats, and those animals were in significantly bigger enclosures than the average 12' by 12' box stall...


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Levade said:


> How am I supposed to answer that without calling her stupid?!
> 
> 
> How can people not see how horrendously cruel it is to keep a horse in a tiny dark box for days on end?
> ...


You would call someone stupid because she has issues with her horse? That is terrible. She asked why - she opened the door. Talk to her HELP her.

It's not cruel - even though it is not ideal - it is not cruel.

I have a gelding that CANNOT be out 24/7. He has major allergic reactions to bug bites. If he is left out when the bugs are bad, he runs himself ragged - yes even with a sheet or fly sheet. 

There are various degrees of horse keeping. Just because you don't agree with it, doesn't mean a person loves their horse any less than you do.

Open your mind and help.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

I'd be very blunt and tell her why and that she needs to turn the poor horse out.

I've got all mine out 24/7/365, including my 28 yr old and my 30 yr old. They are well rugged in winther but they are happy out.

My youngster will stable 24/7 if he has to but he is far far easier to deal with when he is out even if out is just an hour or 2 per day (when moving yards he could only go out in the school for a couple of hours a day due to quarenteen, for 3 weeks).

Stan stabled 24/7 for 6 months due to an injury and then he went mad and we had to turn him out as he became dangerous!

MLS keeping a horse in 24/7 can be concidered cruelty, I personaly concider it cruel unless it is done for medical reasons (like my stan). The RSPCA agree with me on that one. By keeping a horse in 24/7 you are preventing natural interactions that a horse needs with other horses, you are preventing mental stimulation and it can cause all sorts of respiratory problems.

Your lad I presume goes out when the bugs are not bad? totaly different kettle of fish in that case. I've no problem with anyone who gives restricted turn out but no turnout is cruel.
Stan also had a severe allergic reaction to midge bites (known as sweet itch) I brought him in for a couple of hours at dawn and dusk but other wise he was out. He had a boett blanket on but he was out!


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

mls said:


> You would call someone stupid because she has issues with her horse? That is terrible. She asked why - she opened the door. Talk to her HELP her.
> 
> It's not cruel - even though it is not ideal - it is not cruel.
> 
> ...


I have to agree with this.


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## Palomino Brigade (Mar 20, 2011)

This is pointless. Ray is hard to catch, but only because he thinks it's a game. He is out in the pasture in rain, snow, etc. etc. because we don't have stalls in our barn anymore, we have no ROOM in our barn, and we can't afford to build the new barn I have made blueprints for. (Putting all-new fencing on 38 acres is pretty expensive, on top of normal stuff and my birthday coming up next month. No telling when it'll all be finished.) Even if we had a barn, he'd be out a lot. It gives him more of a 'personality', I think.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

faye said:


> MLS keeping a horse in 24/7 can be concidered cruelty, I personaly concider it cruel unless it is done for medical reasons (like my stan). The RSPCA agree with me on that one. By keeping a horse in 24/7 you are preventing natural interactions that a horse needs with other horses, you are preventing mental stimulation and it can cause all sorts of respiratory problems.


If you want to talk cruelty - we can go there - but you won't like it. Saddles, bridles, out of shape horses ridden for miles and not cared for. on and on and on. Over fed horses, under fed horses. Do it yourself training is apparently cruel too if you read some of the threads on this forum.

As far as natural interactions with other horses - do you stop in at every single horse home and tell them they are cruel because their horse does not have a buddy? Doubtful.

For the record - our horses are out as much as possible. Rain, snow, sun, mud, bugs, etc. Our contract (we have a boarding facility) specifically states daily turnout unless medically necessary to be confined. However, if my friend chooses to keep her horses in her own barn - that is her decision. I do not label her cruel or think she loves her horse any less than I love mine.


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## Levade (Apr 13, 2011)

I'm sorry but keeping a horse in 24/7, or keeping a horse alone is CRUEL. It is. I don't care how you phrase it to try to make yourself feel better, but it is cruelty. 

If this is the only lifestyle that you can provide for a horse, you shouldn't have one, simple as.

In my opinion psyhcological cruelty is on a par with physical cruelty such as neglect of the teeth or feet. Weaving, for example, is equivalent to scars from abuse. Solitary confinement for humans in this country is technically considered torture, and horses are at least as sociable as humans...

I don't think I said it properly, girl asked why he was being a PTA, I told girl he needed turnout, she said NO because he's hard to catch... :? That's why I was angry... I obviously don't go telling people they are stupid when they ask for help, kinda defeats the object...


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

People with always type opinions like that have obviously had very little experience with more situations other than their own.


I knew a BO like you. She felt all horses should be able to go out with other horses. Period.
A family bought a horse who came with explicit instructions that he not be turned out with others. The times he was put out with another horse led to an end all type fight and injuries.
Family paid extra board for horse to have private turn out.
BO figured she knew better. She felt this horse required other horses (kind of like you do, that it is cruel for him to not have another horse to interact with) and simply turning this gelding out with another horse that was known to stand it's own ground would teach the gelding to be OK in turn out.
The gelding ended up dead.

There is an endless list of reasons why some horses do not 'do' turn out. Alone or with others.

Different is not wrong. It is just different.


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## mliponoga (Jul 24, 2010)

I completely agree!! Keeping a horse in 24/7 is absolutely cruel! It causes a bunch of different issues including joint issues, mental issues, etc.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mliponoga (Jul 24, 2010)

And to say that there are horses that can't be turned out I find that to be wrong too! Locking them in a stall is just the easiest solution.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

mliponoga said:


> I completely agree!! Keeping a horse in 24/7 is absolutely cruel! It causes a bunch of different issues including joint issues, mental issues, etc.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I would guess that most horses that are kept stalled are worked on a daily basis. It is not like they simply stand still all day.


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## Levade (Apr 13, 2011)

"Different is not wrong. It is just different."

Well a woman in our town recently had three german shepherds taken away from her because she kept them in crates... Two were literally mad, it was 50/50 whether they would have to be destroyed. Some people obviously feel that this is a perfectly good way to keep a dog, does this mean that it's acceptable? Can't all be sunshine and butterflies, you need to draw the line somewhere.

Why could this horse not have been turned out with others in an adjacent paddock, so they could interact over a fence? And don't accuse me of doing something so stupid, I have worked in various equine industries and seen how such problems were managed. Only in places like dealer's yards where they have no interest in the horse's future would they have used 24/7 stabling as a way of getting around this issue. And as a barn owner (is that what BO means?) you do as you're paid to do. 

In my very first post I said being brought in for a few hours to get away from the flies isn't bad... I'm not digging at you because your horse has sweet itch.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Had horses for the better part of 35 years. Only had a barn with box stalls for 10 years. Only had one colic in all that time (gras came in too fast). Only had one major injury at pasture in all those years. 

Run in shed and good fences with water and feed (long stem grass hay) and very little grain for non working/breeding horses keeps them much healthier on all fronts.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Dog crates are evil now too?
Oh my. Do not tell my dogs. They love their crates.


He required turn out with out touching horses. I guess if you did not like your fence or the legs of either horse over the fence contact was fine.
(For the record, he was fine being ridden in groups.)

There are parts of the country that land is a premium (think places like CA). Many many horses in that part of the world do not get daily turn out and are doing just fine.


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## Levade (Apr 13, 2011)

Alwaysbehind said:


> I would guess that most horses that are kept stalled are worked on a daily basis. It is not like they simply stand still all day.


So they stand for 23 hours a day. And all their time is spent controlled...

There's a reason why european horsefarm warmbloods are lost to colic so often. The horse is built to be constantly on the move. This is simply the way they have evolved.

Often on competition yards the horse is worked two to three times a day, an hour at a time, proper work, and also put on the horsewalker. All the yards I've worked at, the horses have all had daily turnout (yes they are bandanged and booted up to the nines) and are roughed off for a couple of months at the end of the season. 

Private owners cannot say the same, and even if your horse is worked properly twice a day (mine all are) it does not justify 24/7 stabling.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

I stand by, different is not wrong.

You are welcome to do things your way. Others are welcome to do things their way. It does not make their way wrong.


If you are riding your horses three times per day then they can not be grazing all that time, isn't it natural for them to graze all day too? How natural is it for them to carry a rider for three hours a day?


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Alwaysbehind said:


> Dog crates are evil now too?
> Oh my. Do not tell my dogs. They love their crates.


I must admit that I had never seen dog crates until I moved here and I was shocked. In Australia if you were caught keeping dogs locked in crates all day like that, yes you would be reported to the RSPCA. It would not be allowed. Things are different in the US, I do not wish to comment on whether it is right or wrong, only to illustrate that in other parts of the world, dog crates _would_ be considered inhumane. I am glad that your dogs love their crate AB, I am led to believe that many dogs learn to derive comfort from their crate while their owners are at work.

Of course I am also aware of the other end of the scale, that dogs are starved and neglected and allowed to run around the neighborhoods carrying all manner of diseases so it is a broad spectrum.

Back to the topic at hand. If I understood the OP correctly then this horse is not being turned out *because it is hard to catch* rather than any serious underlying cause that might warrant being stalled 24/7. Please correct me if that assertion is false.

 If a horse has a serious medical condition (e.g. insect hypersensitivity) that prohibits turnout, I don’t think anyone would suggest otherwise. Seems to me that in the case of the gelding that died tragically, it was not the turnout that was to blame, it was herd dynamics. In fact, if I understood that story correctly, private turnout was available, and paid for, but the horse was instead released into a shared pasture, thus leading to fatal injuries. Therefore it was not turnout that killed the horse, it was human stupidity.

Not turning a horse out because you can’t be bothered catching it is abhorrent IMO.


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## Levade (Apr 13, 2011)

Alwaysbehind said:


> Dog crates are evil now too?
> Oh my. Do not tell my dogs. They love their crates.


Well in this country you would get your dogs confiscated for keeping them in a crate


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## Levade (Apr 13, 2011)

Alwaysbehind said:


> He required turn out with out touching horses. I guess if you did not like your fence or the legs of either horse over the fence contact was fine.
> (For the record, he was fine being ridden in groups.)


What about electric tape? Or drystone, which is what we have here. I have never seen a horse with such severe agression that it couldn't have contact with other horses, NEVER, in all my years. And I suspect this problem is caused by lack of socialisation as a youngster, bet it was kept stabled. Or maybe had a brain tumour. That is NOT normal or acceptable behaviour.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

sarahver said:


> I must admit that I had never seen dog crates until I moved here and I was shocked. In Australia if you were caught keeping dogs locked in crates all day like that, yes you would be reported to the RSPCA. It would not be allowed. Things are different in the US, I do not wish to comment on whether it is right or wrong, only to illustrate that in other parts of the world, dog crates _would_ be considered inhumane. I am glad that your dogs love their crate AB, I am led to believe that many dogs learn to derive comfort from their crate while their owners are at work.
> 
> Of course I am also aware of the other end of the scale, that dogs are starved and neglected and allowed to run around the neighborhoods carrying all manner of diseases so it is a broad spectrum.
> 
> ...


Excellant post Sarah! Well said!

Horses are designed to be out as much as possible. They are created to be on the move, and created to continuously graze as much as possible due to their digestive system. I think it is unhealthy to keep a horse in a stall all day long. Even Olympic Level Mounts get turned out at least an hour a day in private turn out. Leaving them in a stall all day long, is opening doors for health issues - digestive, mental and joint.


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## arkangel (Apr 25, 2011)

i would turn him out the reason he's hard to catch is no trust


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

I agree Sarah, but there are people here saying that turn out is required because horses require interaction with other horses. Hence the example of the horse that did not do other horses.



I have to wonder what people do with destructive dogs if they are not allowed to crate them?

My one dog, that is allowed on all the furniture, had a dog bed in every room (yes, we have lots of dog beds), and you still find her in her crate, curled up sleeping, sometimes.


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## Levade (Apr 13, 2011)

Alwaysbehind said:


> There are parts of the country that land is a premium (think places like CA). Many many horses in that part of the world do not get daily turn out and are doing just fine.


 
Depends on your perception of fine. 

I've had horses that windsuck, that crib, that weave. All developed these habits after being stabled for long periods of time, they are heartbreaking behaviours to witness, and anyone can see that a horse displaying them is obviously not fine.

It's like zoo animals pacing. That polar bear here in the UK that was showing a stereotype similar to weaving, going into an introverted trance and shifting from side to side, that one animal caused all sorts of laws to be rewritten regarding the enclosure size and social management of large animals in captivity. And yet hundreds of horses display the same mental illness and people whack a cribbing collar on it, or a weave grill, or run electric wire across the top of the door - and make no change to the way the horse is kept, or the amount of turnout it gets.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Actually, the horses in Europe you speak of that are stalled "all day" are not infact in the stall "all day". Usually they are put on a horsewalker for a while, taken out to hand graze, have a nice long grooming session and are also ridden. So, not in a stall for 23 hours.
And in these areas, it is necessitated that the horses are in. They simply do not have the room for turnout paddocks.

My horse grew up well socialized in a herd. He's now 8 and had been turned out with an older, non-dominant gelding for the past few years. Now he is turned out with another 8 year old, slightly less dominant than he is gelding. The only reason is because they've been across the fence for over 6 months prior to introduction. The two have room to run, get along well and have access to shelter and water.
The only reason my horse is out with another horse is because he is well socialized, the other horse is socialized, the other horse is less dominant and the area of turnout is large enough that they aren't in each other's hair all the time.

Had I a horse who was not socialized, or with my horse if there were not a suitable other horse or turnout area for him to be with/in he would be alone. It's not cruel, it's life. Horse is valuable, so we take steps to make sure horse maintains value by virtue of not injuring horse by turning him out with dominant horses in bad turnout areas. He is dominant, but not a tyrant and I know he wont beat up on other horses, but will not back down from a fight.

Stalling 24/7, while extreme, can be necessary. In OPs case I don't think it is, however that is up to her to figure out and if she's asked for help from you then you should suggest that she try turning the horse out and bringing a carrot to catch him.

Good luck!


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Alwaysbehind said:


> I have to wonder what people do with destructive dogs if they are not allowed to crate them?


Two things:

1.) Training.

2.) Accepting that there will be some loss of property in the meantime :wink:


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Sarah, Not that simple. Great theories though.


Good post, Anebel.


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## Scoope (Oct 19, 2010)

here to it is illegal to keep a dog in a box.

not sure who said it , but somebody said their horses paddock time is restricted due to no body being home to watch them. Just wandering why somebody had to be home to watch them while they were in the paddock ? do you sit on the fence the whole time?? 

It is just that here , bording barns are a rarity - most horses live in paddocks 24/7 , and I for one , am not going to watch my two motley drafts that entire time.

Granted they're not pristine , and infact where their feathers should be white they are indeed brown and green most of the time but they're happy out there and they stay out all year round.

We have open stalls which we keep the doors too pinned back open , so if they want they can come in out of the rain - but they usually choose to stand out in the open getting sodden.

If the mud is really bad then we keep them on the fat fighters block (run way/drive) with the gate to the yard open so they can get to the stalls if they want too - but they usually dont bother. Anyone who is on 'weight watchers' lives on the drive/run way too.


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## Scoope (Oct 19, 2010)

why is it not that simple always behind??

im not a dog person by any means but if that is not the point of training (the act of training an animal do perform wanted behaviors/ not perform unwanted behaviors) than I dont know what is.

Keeping an animal in a box would land you with a visit from the SPCA and likely your animal being confiscated. The only exceptions to this is farm dogs , which are kept in large runs/kennels when they are not working but most of the time they are out working.

Seems a bit like a cheats way out really. A cheap fix if you will - I can understand for travelling in cars , as dogs (and people) become missiles in accidents if they are not restrained but for at home?? surely that is what proper training and secure fencing is for?? I could see that they could be a good place to put the dog if he was child aggressive and you had children visiting - but with that being said , I think child aggressive dogs should be destroyed - IMO its not worth the risk.

but maybe it is just the difference in culture speaking.


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## Whisper22 (Jan 2, 2011)

For the most part one of my horses is stalled all day. She is extremely aggressive with her food and only allows my arab to eat with her so she has to eat in her stall and there isn't anyone there to let her out when she's done. Even when people are home later in the day they don't like to let her out unless I will be there later to put her away. They are scared of her, which I think is pretty rediculous but that's not my decision. I'm only there 2 or 3 times a week so that's when she gets turned out for a few hours.
Her stall is connected to the corral though and the other horses spend a lot of time just standing by her so she's not exactly alone, but she does crib. I know it's because she's stalled all day but she inhales her food and then runs the other horses off. The other horses are already too skinny and she's the only one that seems to be at a good weight. 
We are working on a bigger stall for her that would give her some extra room to walk around but my situation is just an example of why a horse has to be stalled, especially when it's not your property and the decisions you can make are limited.


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## Levade (Apr 13, 2011)

Alwaysbehind said:


> If you are riding your horses three times per day then they can not be grazing all that time, isn't it natural for them to graze all day too? How natural is it for them to carry a rider for three hours a day?


Actually it is not natural for a horse to be grazing all day. In the wild they would spend time in search of grazing, shade, water, evading predators or percieved threats, time being moved and herded by the matriarch or stallion, and time spent interacting with the other horses. Not just eating. Because tame horses have no predators, and such readily avaliable grazing, if left to their own devices they would stand and eat all day, again why we need to excercise them ourselves.

But that is beside the point. I am not talking about natural, I am talking about ethical. Yes, in domesticating the horse we must compromise on what is natural, but we must look at his musculoskeletal and digestive systems, we must look at how the horse has developed to function happily and healthily, and we must strive towards re-creating that. Keeping a horse stabled 24/7 is putting_ unecessary_ strain on his mentality and physical system.


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## Countrylady1071 (May 12, 2010)

I work at a barn with 43 horses. They don't get any turnout, but they are worked 6 days a week. We only have one cribber in the barn, no weavers and or other mental issues. They're all very well behaved other than one nasty crab of a horse. Even the three stallions are extremely polite other than one of them being a bit nippy. They're kept in because they all have big, expensive saddleseat shoes on. I don't think being kept in is ideal, (my horse gets daily turnout and I'm very happy with that) but I just don't think it's cruel.. At least if they're getting exercised daily or at least several times a week..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Levade (Apr 13, 2011)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Actually, the horses in Europe you speak of that are stalled "all day" are not infact in the stall "all day". Usually they are put on a horsewalker for a while, taken out to hand graze, have a nice long grooming session and are also ridden. So, not in a stall for 23 hours.


 
I don't mean a barn like yours (on a side note, I am in awe of your riding and your horse!! Fantastic animal!!) I mean a horsefarm, or horsemill, the ones that pump out warmbloods (not well bred ones, just warmbloods) so that they can import them and get massive prices for "imported warmbloods" that gullible people (i can see the temptation!! people see big, bay and a flicky trot and are blinded to everything else) in places like germany, the UK and the US buy! I've seen one in poland, and have a horse from one in denmark. The polish one, they were kept under electric lighting 24 hours a day so that they didn't develop winter coats.

Still, that only brings it down to 20 hours a day stood in a stall. Still not ideal, but at least they arent stabled ALL day. 

Just on a side note, do horses at your yard get free turnout on grass or in an arena?


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## westernhorse (Mar 12, 2011)

I totally agree with keeping a horse out in a paddock 24/7! so long as they have shelter, water, and a decent food supply, our horses love it! i know what it is like though having a abusive horse! we have to keep my yearling under the lean-to overnight. otherwise our gelding will chase her though the fence... all it takes is one look from him in the evening while shes peacefully eating, and she goes bonkers trying to get away from him. durring the day everything is all fine and dandy... but Spartan also knows that were constantly watching him. I had to get rid of a GREAT gelding last year because he kept jumping the fence.. or running straight though it breaking all the boards. we didnt clue in till we got my yearling that it was Spartan being a massive jerk.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Scoope said:


> Seems a bit like a cheats way out really. A cheap fix if you will - I can understand for travelling in cars , as dogs (and people) become missiles in accidents if they are not restrained but for at home?? surely that is what proper training and secure fencing is for?? I could see that they could be a good place to put the dog if he was child aggressive and you had children visiting - but with that being said , I think child aggressive dogs should be destroyed - IMO its not worth the risk.
> 
> but maybe it is just the difference in culture speaking.


What does good secure fencing have to do with it when I am not home. I do not leave my dogs outside to annoy the neighbors and risk getting injured or stolen.

And yes, good fencing is a must. There is no place in my world for dogs that run loose and are untrained.

It is next to impossible to train out behaviors that happen when you are not there. Just saying.
Good basic obedience does not fix a dog that is destructive when not supervised. 

Thankfully I do not live in a country that is so narrow minded about the keeping of dogs.


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## Levade (Apr 13, 2011)

sarahver said:


> Two things:
> 
> 1.) Training.
> 
> 2.) Accepting that there will be some loss of property in the meantime :wink:


Agreed!! Works over here??


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Levade said:


> Works over here??


You are asking if it works over there?

I am guessing that there are lots of dogs that are put down because there are some issues that just do not train away easily and a crate keeps the dog safe and the home safe.

They are a tool. Like a fence, a leash, a collar. 

Sigh.

OK, enough banging my head on the wall, obviously I am stuck in world of my way or the highway people.


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## Levade (Apr 13, 2011)

Scoope said:


> why is it not that simple always behind??
> 
> im not a dog person by any means but if that is not the point of training (the act of training an animal do perform wanted behaviors/ not perform unwanted behaviors) than I dont know what is.
> 
> ...


Good post!

And I agree about the child agressive dogs. I know a little boy that has severe facial scarring because some woman took her dog (known to show agression towards children) to the park and let it off the lead, because she "knew her dog and knew if she called him he would come back." Look what happened. So not worth the risk!


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## Scoope (Oct 19, 2010)

we are not narrow minded about keeping dogs - we just do not tolerate cruelty. 

you obviously have issues if you think that every tom **** and harry wants to steal your dog - that or it defecates gold. If I thought that way I would have a house full of chickens as well as a freezer full. 

its not impossible to correct unwanted behaviors - it is impossible to correct them if you are unwilling to put in the effort, in which case I would question the ownership of a dog at all. Invest in the input of a reputed dog behaviorist, it would most likely do both you and your dog a world of good.


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## Levade (Apr 13, 2011)

Alwaysbehind said:


> Thankfully I do not live in a country that is so narrow minded about the keeping of dogs.


Or a country that is quite strict about animal welfare.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Scoope said:


> you obviously have issues if you think that every tom **** and harry wants to steal your dog - that or it defecates gold.


I never said my dog was special.

I am VERY realistic though.

I live in a part of the country that dog theft is not rare or even unusual. People who fight dogs (illegally) have no issues stealing dogs to use as bate dogs.
My dog happens to be the right breed for stealing.

You are pretty funny though. If only she made little piles of money in the yard instead of normal stinky 'ol dog crap.


It is called a different ...back to different is not wrong. Do not invent reasons that are not there and assume you know that a person does not know what they are talking about.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Levade said:


> In my very first post I said being brought in for a few hours to get away from the flies isn't bad... I'm not digging at you because your horse has sweet itch.


If you are talking to me - my horse does not have sweet itch. He has severe reactions to bug bites. Too many overload his system - similiar to a poision.

You have a right to your opinion about turnout. I have a right to mine.


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## Levade (Apr 13, 2011)

mls said:


> If you are talking to me - my horse does not have sweet itch. He has severe reactions to bug bites. Too many overload his system - similiar to a poision.
> 
> You have a right to your opinion about turnout. I have a right to mine.


Noo, not you.

Curious though, do you know what bug? Because we have one that bleeds buckets if a horsefly bites him, but the others barely show a mark, even the grey... Wondering if this is something similar.


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## Scoope (Oct 19, 2010)

diddnt say different was wrong , can perhaps understand not wanting to have dogs in the yard if there is fighting theft - now that is not something that is rife over here (not saying it dosent happen , just that it isnt rife - it is cracked down on very very hard) I used to watch 'animal cops detroit' I think It was , which is in America somewhere I think - they had dog fighting seizures featured on that fairly regularly and it was utterly horrific. I presume you have some sort of mastiff-y / pitt sort of dog then?? nice dogs if treated well - killers if not unfortunately. mind you my aunts poodle is pretty darn horrid too - only difference is she has pom poms on her butt - I think I'd bite you too if somebody shaved me to look like some sort of toddlers cotton/glue creation.

Maybe those 'doggy daycare' enterprises could be worth a look into if you work long hours?? they're growing in popularity over here (I think it was an idea brought over from America) when I first herd of them I initially though 'how stupid' but actually , it has been a god send for my friend who has a great dane (dont even get me started on big dogs living in little high rise apartments - that is a who different kettle of fish again!) he drops her off on his way to work in the morning , and picks her up in the evening on the way home - nicely tired out and happy from playing with doggy friends all day. Don't know what it costs though - money isnt really an issue for him , hes somthing of a high fligher - lucky ******. 

Wish my hens defecated gold , might smell nicer than our newly raked/composted lawn seed that is currently wafting through through the livingroom window. Heck I'd be rich , could afford chicken daycare!! one can dream can't she??


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Scoope said:


> we are not narrow minded about keeping dogs - we just do not tolerate cruelty.


Neither does Always. I'm not sure why you think crating equals cruelty. It's a training tool, nothing more, nothing less.

My dog was crated as a puppy. She has no lasting psychological damage that I can tell. 

The dogs also come to associate their crates with safety and home. That is of course, as long as you're using the crates _properly_.



Scoope said:


> you obviously have issues if you think that every tom **** and harry wants to steal your dog - that or it defecates gold. If I thought that way I would have a house full of chickens as well as a freezer full.


As Always pointed out, people steal pets to use as 'bait dogs'. They prefer pets, so that their fighting dogs won't get hurt.

I'm not sure what a house/freezer full of chickens has to do with dogs and crates, unless it's some sort of British colloquialism for something. 



Scoope said:


> its not impossible to correct unwanted behaviors - it is impossible to correct them if you are unwilling to put in the effort, in which case I would question the ownership of a dog at all. Invest in the input of a reputed dog behaviorist, it would most likely do both you and your dog a world of good.


No, it's not, and Always has utilized a reputable trainer, so I'm not sure why you think she's using a shortcut or is too lazy or cruel. Extrapolate much? :?


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

Wow has this thread gotten off topic lol! All of our horses get turnout and the dogs get run of the farm, all 40 acres. Horses go out whether we are home or not, that's what good fence is for. The dogs are out if we are out, they are very well trained hunting dogs that know their boundaries and they wear paging collars that I can hit a button that vibrates and they come if they are out of hearing range for me to call with my voice. I have no problem with dogs being crated, if not for excessive amounts of time. The only time mine go in a crate is the hunting box in the back of the truck and if they see my hubby with a gun or the tail gate down they load themselves


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## Whisper22 (Jan 2, 2011)

There is such a thing called "crate training" that is effective. Not everyone is a dog trainer or can afford a trainer, and I don't think that means they shouldn't own a dog. A crate shouldn't be used to contain the dog for the purpose of babysitting when you just don't feel like it but it is a training tool that works. I also don't think it's cruel to keep a dog in a crate for it's own safety when you're not home, as long as it's not in there all day and has plenty of time to be a dog everday.

I don't think you should own a dog if you are just going to keep it in a crate when you are home.


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## Scoope (Oct 19, 2010)

speed racer:

I meant that if I worried that everybody was going to steel my chickens because they live in the garden , then I would end up with a whole load of chickens in my house- a house-full of chickens if you will. As well as in my freezer - which is full of frozen chickens. Also , Im from New Zealand - not England. So no more a British colloquialism than an American one. 

by calling it a training tool - you insinuate that you are indeed training it into/out of a behavior. Leaving it in a crate while you are out is not training. It is leaving it in a crate while you are out, there is no learning process going on.

In my above post which I am presuming you did not/have not read I said that if dog theft for dog baiting was rife then I could see not leaving a dog in the yard as a possible option. But I still dont think that if you are leaving it in a crate all day (I am thinking a normal 9-5 working day or more in many peoples case here) it is very good for a dog. With that said , if you are only leaving the dog in the crate while you go to the shops / bank/ running errands then I wouldent have so much of an issue with it. I would rather it be in a cool box with water than shut in a hot car while you are out. Still, not ideal - but life is full of things that are less than ideal - thats just life. I don't know Always exact situation , I am not Always and nor do I spend my time scrutinizing her every move, it is just my perception - my opinion on the use of dog crates. 

Not extrapolating anything either - not sure you understand the meaning of the word or the context in which it is used. 

It is not impossible to correct unwanted behaviors, it is impossible if the necessary steps are not taken. Sometimes further avenues need to be explored. 

If crate is used as a temporary measure than I don't see too much of a problem, if it is being used as a tool to actively train the dog then I don't see an issue , if it is a permanent living habitat for a dog then I do have an issue with it. I feel uneasy at a bird in a small cage , let alone a dog.


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## zurmdahl (Feb 25, 2009)

I agree that 24/7 turn out is ideal, especially for older horses with arthritis. But I find that most horses, at least those at the barn I'm at, do fine with half day turn out. It is almost impossible to find 24/7 turn out around where I live, unless it is a small back yard barn that more often than not does not have a ring. I find most places around here don't turn out at all, or if they do it's only for a few hours. I personally wouldn't board my horse there but that's just my opinion, I know a lot of people who do and their horses are just fine. I have to disagree with all horses needing interaction with other horses, my older gelding couldn't care less about other horses. He would be perfectly happy living completely by himself. He just doesn't feel the need to socialize, he also will chase other horses relentlessly and can be rather mean so he generally stays by himself and is just as happy alone if not happier.


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## Whisper22 (Jan 2, 2011)

Scoope said:


> by calling it a training tool - you insinuate that you are indeed training it into/out of a behavior. Leaving it in a crate while you are out is not training. It is leaving it in a crate while you are out, there is no learning process going on.


I didn't say it was ONLY a training tool, but crates are not evil because they CAN be used as one. You are correct in that leaving them in a crate when you are not home isn't teaching them anything, but it's not cruel.

My personal preference would be a dog run if it is a daily need to keep them locked up. I think that, unless keeping them crated is not somethinng you plan to have to do long term, you should make an effort to give them more space.


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## MaggiStar (Mar 19, 2010)

Random thread!
I had NEVER heard of crates until i came on here. Over here dogs are free to run the garden or kept indoors with 2walks daily.
ALl my road though dogs are just left outside with a shed or stable for when it rains my dog is a guard dog so has to be out yet has never ever wandered off despite the fact were surrounded by fields, dogs, sheep , wildlife its training that thought him to stay home. I got his as an 8month old rescue puppy who thought chargin around like a lunatic was acceptable in less then three months he had free run of the place,

Regarding horses i dont think every horse needs another equine friend any sort of companion is suitable such as sheep, goat cow etc it depends on the horse how they do alone. 
Turnout is needed in my opinon but not 24-7 is suitable for everyone a few hours a day is fine, However if the horse is not being worked regularly should ideally live out doors


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## mliponoga (Jul 24, 2010)

Alwaysbehind said:


> I would guess that most horses that are kept stalled are worked on a daily basis. It is not like they simply stand still all day.


Being worked everyday is not enough, that's probably even worse. All you're doing then is letting joints get stiff for 22 hours then working them with stiff joints IMO
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Levade said:


> I don't mean a barn like yours (on a side note, I am in awe of your riding and your horse!! Fantastic animal!!) I mean a horsefarm, or horsemill, the ones that pump out warmbloods (not well bred ones, just warmbloods) so that they can import them and get massive prices for "imported warmbloods" that gullible people (i can see the temptation!! people see big, bay and a flicky trot and are blinded to everything else) in places like germany, the UK and the US buy! I've seen one in poland, and have a horse from one in denmark. The polish one, they were kept under electric lighting 24 hours a day so that they didn't develop winter coats.
> 
> Still, that only brings it down to 20 hours a day stood in a stall. Still not ideal, but at least they arent stabled ALL day.
> 
> Just on a side note, do horses at your yard get free turnout on grass or in an arena?


The horses with their own grooms can get a good few hours hand grazing alone. When my coach was campaigning for the weg her horse was probably getting walked and hand grazed for a good 3 hours, an hour of grooming and an hour and a half of riding between the hacks and training. That's life for most upper level, internationally competitive horses.

At the barn I'm at the only grassy fields are for the outdoor horses and maybe only have 2 months of grass on them. The indoor horse turnouts are mostly quite small, but the group turnout paddocks are larger. My horse happens to be in a pen adjoining the outdoor arena and we just leave the gate between the two open when the arena isn't in use. Which is 10 months a year lol.
We keep our horses under lights during winter as well. We turnout and in in the blackness during winter lol. Horses are usually out 7 to 3. We have a few that are inside 24/7 especially in the winter due to ice. They get turnout in the indoor arena for a little bit each.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Levade (Apr 13, 2011)

mliponoga said:


> Being worked everyday is not enough, that's probably even worse. All you're doing then is letting joints get stiff for 22 hours then working them with stiff joints IMO


 
This! 

Any equine vet will tell you that, speaking purely on health grounds (unless the horse has something else wrong, like that one with the bug bite allergy), stabling for more than a few hours is really not great...


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

While turnout is arguably the best way to prevent joint disease, it is sometimes just not a viable option for various reasons.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

Scoope said:


> here to it is illegal to keep a dog in a box.
> 
> not sure who said it , but somebody said their horses paddock time is restricted due to no body being home to watch them. Just wandering why somebody had to be home to watch them while they were in the paddock ? do you sit on the fence the whole time??
> 
> It is just that here , bording barns are a rarity - most horses live in paddocks 24/7 , and I for one , am not going to watch my two motley drafts that entire time.


That would be me LOL. The reason is... because my mom said so. She's the boss and she says they are not allowed to out of their stalls unless me or my father is home, and to stay home to watch them.


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## prudog (Apr 26, 2011)

I love my horses


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## Levade (Apr 13, 2011)

That's so strange Ray, never heard that before! If it's so they don't damage themselves, what difference does it make watching them? It can take one wrong stride to break a shoulder, one irritable kick to break a leg, not really something you can prevent, even if you are there to witness it! And it must be pretty boring watching them, my nags are so lazy in the paddock, they just sleep and eat


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## Whisper22 (Jan 2, 2011)

Some horses do need to be watched. My percheron cross, the one I keep stalled, got out recently and because my brother in law was afraid of her he just left her out while they ran errands all day. When they got home all the horses were roaming the property. She had pushed a panel that wasn't cemented yet until the rope broke. She will also try and jump anything under eyelevel whether she can make it or not.
Obviously these are problems that can be fixed. All the panels are above eye level now but not all of them are cemented yet, so until they are she can't be out without supervision.


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

I actually do something similar to Ray - the horses go out as long as someone's on the property to bring them in or handle them should the need arise. I don't have the luxury of a shelter (natural or otherwise) in my paddocks, or the funds to build one right now. So, the horses go out if the sky isn't falling, and when they start hanging out by the gate looking for me they come in. I don't stand around and watch them every second they aren't in the barn, but I do keep a lookout on them, and they know when they're tired of standing in beating sun or wind. My hope is that in time I can tweak my barn/paddock setup to better accommodate more and more comfortable turnout time, but as it is, my system is working well for my horses - healthy weights, good manners, and not vice one. 

As far as the difference made in watching them, my sister's gelding had a freak accident in his pasture in the nanosecond it took her to move my gelding into the barn and come back for him. He sliced his hock, cutting through an artery. If no one had been home, he may well have bled out in the pasture. Our vet is a saint. Call me a worrier. :lol:


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

Levade said:


> That's so strange Ray, never heard that before! If it's so they don't damage themselves, what difference does it make watching them? It can take one wrong stride to break a shoulder, one irritable kick to break a leg, not really something you can prevent, even if you are there to witness it! And it must be pretty boring watching them, my nags are so lazy in the paddock, they just sleep and eat


Yeah LOL I don't know why either, I guess she is afraid they will escape and nobody will be home to catch them. And I don't sit there and watch LOL That would be boring! But I do have to check on them every hour or so...

My mare Abby tried to jump a fence when she was boarded... She didn't make it LOL and got a nasty cut on her chest.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

I completely agree Scout!


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

I've only read 3 pages, so bear with me.

I am with the OP when I say that stalling 24/7 minus riding time is practically cruelty. Maybe not there yet, but it's certainly up there. Of course, in most barns with full time stalling, the horses are also in a place with constant activity to keep them busy and happy. BUT, I still believe that turning a horse out for at least a little while every day is hugely beneficial. Social interaction with a herd is nice, but it's not always feasible.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

I wouldn't like to stall a horse that I owned 24/7. But that is my choice, and influenced by the place in which I live. Over here, it's 'fancy' for a boarding facility to have more than 3 or 4 boxes. Most horses are out in paddocks 24/7. Some places do individual paddocks, others do group paddocks. The idea of having a horse in the stable the whole time just doesn't seem right because it isn't what I am used to lol. I am more used to chasing ponies around a 40 acre paddock, rattling a bucket of pony cubes, and hoping I can run the one I want into a corner lol.

Also, in Australia, crate training is virtually non existant... but my Chi is crate trained. Not for when I go out (although that might be an idea now that you mention it, she is a destructive little monster) but at night. Her crate is right beside the bed, and she jumps in there on her own when I go to bed. In the mornings I open it, and 90% of the time she looks at me and rolls over like a lazy teenager - No Mum, I don't wanna go to school! If I leave her out, she sneaks into my bed, which I don't mind, but my fiancée absolutely hates.


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## mliponoga (Jul 24, 2010)

Hmmm don't completely understand the need everyone has for always watching there horses when outside :/ I leave my horses out 24/7 in a 4 strand fence and have done so for 4 years. They have never been lame, had any health issues, all are kept at a perfect weight, get natural exercise every day, etc. I have even left them for 3 days before without any worries.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

My boy was stabled 24/7 when I first started working with him. His stable connected to a fairly large sand yard so he could stretch his legs a little, but no grazing available and always standing in sand. 
He was nervy, twitchy, spooky and had huge trust issues. He was incredibly cold backed, had zero work ethic, would leap out of his stable straight on top of you when you lead him in or out. In the morning when you bought him out he'd start shaking...

He is now out 24/7 in a large, beautifully grassed paddock with 2 other horses. Behavioural issues are almost entirely gone other than a couple of under saddle issues that will take some patience to work through. But on the ground, he is an absolute gentle and has made a complete turn around from the nervous wreck he was before. 

And people who lock their horses in for such long periods of time wonder why their horse has behavioural issues???? Please use those brain cells! 

As for dog crates... never heard of them. In Australia you'd be in significant trouble with the RSPCA if you locked a dog in a crate for long periods of time. 
Mine live outside, well fenced, but they've got space to run around. Sure, you get destructor dogs but thats why you train them. Usually the ones that dig and bark and rip things to shreds are the ones that have limited mental and physical stimulation. Our dogs have never barked and destroyed things around the place and usually they are on their own from 8am to 6pm every day. They have a large area to run around in and plenty of things to do to keep them from going stir crazy.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

My horse is out 24/7, but I wish I had a stall for him, for the hottest and coldest days. He has a shelter, but the dumb thing doesn't use it, other than to eat in there. 



Scoope said:


> we are not narrow minded about keeping dogs - we just do not tolerate cruelty.


I am English, but have lived in the US for 10 years. When I first moved here, I assumed that dog crates were cruel, but now I use one myself for my dogs. I used them for when the dogs were young, it helps them to become house trained as they don't want to mess where they are, and obviously you would not leave them too long so that this is impossible. 
Once my dogs were older, they still liked their crate, so I took the door off it, as they would chose to be in there and I didn't want them getting accidentially stuck in it. 
Now that I have a puppy again, the door is back on it and he goes in there when I leave the house, which is about 8 hours a week (not a day, an entire week). It's not cruel, it's his space, and if there are raised voices in the house, that's where he goes to. It is comforting to him to have his space. 


AB, it is just a perception thing, in England it is common to close a young puppy in a bathroom where they can't do much damage while you are at work. It really is no different than a crate, but somehow it is perceived that way. 





Scoope said:


> I used to watch 'animal cops detroit' I think It was , which is in America somewhere I think


That would be Detroit, it is a major city in Michigan, US.


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## Scoope (Oct 19, 2010)

Having read the replies - if it is being used to actively train then I can see how it could be very useful - and I like your idea of taking the door off so the dog dosent get stuck. I can see (especially from the perspective of somebody with small children) how that could be good - a place the dog can take itself away to - much like how we have the rule ' if the cat is in its basket , you don't touch the cat - if he comes out of his basket you can pet him " , somewhere the animal can take itself away to if it is feeling harassed and know that the children will leave it alone. In that sort of way I can actually see a good use for them - a sort of safe place for the animal.


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## Deerly (Apr 18, 2010)

So this is kind of a long thread and I admit I only read the first / last pages and skimmed in between but I have opinions on the matter XD

I think it's silly to be judgmental of any sort of stabling situation or the labeling of people who board their horses in stalls as bad owners.

Sure, keeping a horse in a stall without exercise or stimulation and socialization is cruel but imagine how many homeless (read: auctioned / slaughtered) horses we would have if you had to have acres of pasture at your disposal in order to keep one. 

Horses that receive daily turn out and exercise in nice, clean and well maintained stables are not abused and their owners are not cruel heartless or selfish. 

I get so annoyed when people sit and look down on others who do things differently or have a different set of circumstances to work with. Are all boarding/stall situations good? No. Do horses get neglected and left alone in stalls? Sure. Does that mean that keeping your horse in a roomy, clean stall and ensuring they get turn out and exercise is evil and cruel and heartless? I don't think so.

One of my horses is in a lovely 40 acre pasture 24/7 and the other is boarded in a roomy stall with horsey friends on either side and plenty of exercise and turn out to run around and roll on his own. Neither of them are sad or abused and both is quite content with their job (or lack there of) and present situation. The pastured horse lives several hours away at the moment as there is nothing even remotely as nice in terms of pasture closer to where I live.

What is it about horse people that drives us so deeply into the "my way or you are stupid/abusive/evil" mentality?? :evil:


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Scoope I took the door off when my dogs were older and no longer needed to be confined in it, both for potty training and destruction. Now that I have a puppy the door is back on, and it's only used when I leave him alone. 

And it is a safe place for them, that they enjoy. He currently has the towel that he is working on shredding in his. 

If I give them a bone, as I have two dogs, the puppy takes his bone to his crate and eats it in there. As he thinks it is his place, and the other dog won't bother him, if he is in there. Silly puppy doesn't realize it was my older dogs crate before it was his.


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## mliponoga (Jul 24, 2010)

Hmmm...anywhere around me you need a minimum of 5 acres to have one horse or your horses can be taken away.


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## Delfina (Feb 12, 2010)

That may be the regulations for *your* area but it's not like that around here.

Local county regulations are 1/2 acre per large animal unit and you must located in a zone that permits large animals. A relative of mine lives on 2.45 acres, so she could have up to 4 large animals if she chose.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

AlexS said:


> AB, it is just a perception thing, in England it is common to close a young puppy in a bathroom where they can't do much damage while you are at work. It really is no different than a crate, but somehow it is perceived that way.


Thanks for posting this, Alex.
I get it now. People think it is OK to close their dog small places inside or in a kennel outside, just crates are evil. God it. Sigh.

I can only imagine what my dogs would think if I made them live outside. Eeek. 




Deerly said:


> I think it's silly to be judgmental of any sort of stabling situation or the labeling of people who board their horses in stalls as bad owners.


Exactly.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

I just want to clarify a few things about the dog crate issue. Not one person has said that dog crates are evil. From what I can tell other countries do it differently, so far I think we have had people from Aus, NZ, Ireland, England and Wales chime in with their opinion or experiences. Doesn't make anyone wrong or right, it is simply different in different countries. Simple.

I wasn't going to push the issue but I just wanted to clear a couple of things up:



Alwaysbehind said:


> Sarah, Not that simple. Great theories though.


I must remember to mention that training is ineffective to all my friends that own dogs. I have many friends with dogs, all of which were trained without the use of a crate. It's just like horse training really, they are still babies for a few years and make mistakes but it is an ongoing process. With patience, consistency and effort the dog really does become well trained, I am not making up 'theories'.



Alwaysbehind said:


> It is next to impossible to train out behaviors that happen when you are not there. Just saying.
> Good basic obedience does not fix a dog that is destructive when not supervised.
> 
> Thankfully I do not live in a country that is so narrow minded about the keeping of dogs.


I must let everyone back home know this also. Several have dogs that are allowed inside the house and in the yard (doggy door) while my friends are at work do not destroy the place while they are gone. Others just have the run of the yard. Did they destroy things in the puppy years? Yes of course, but they were trained out of it and can be trusted to behave in their owners absence. Dogs are incredibly smart and can be trained to do amazing things, training them to behave while you are gone is not the most amazing training feat I have ever heard of.

It is just a cultural difference and I am sorry you feel attacked AB but just because things are done differently elsewhere does not make everyone else narrow minded. 

Anyway, back on topic...?


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## New_image (Oct 27, 2007)

*My .24 cents*

I do not think most typical cases of horse owners choosing to keep a horse stalled is cruel but in knowing horses myself it makes me beg the question... _why_ someone would choose that life style for their horse. 
A horse doesn't need 5+ acres of lush green pasture and juniper trees to nap under, saying that is un-realistic. However keeping them stalled for any period of time is a much less healthy alternative. Perhaps healthy isn't the right term, less desired from the horses point of view might fit better. Its impossible to argue that point. Not every one has acreage at there disposal or the finances to safely fence that acreage, I get that. But if you're _going_ to own multiple horses people; you're _going_ to need multiple fences! Assume this. Don't just jail time the naughty horse, make her a separate paddock. She can be outside, in the sunshine, free to toss a buck here and trot there, still see the herd and communicate. Same goes for the thin horse or the accident prone horse. Separate paddock... right next door. Why is this hard?

With the rare exceptions of a injury requiring time to heal in a confined area or the one in 10,000 horses who are allergic to a certain type of insect at a certain season causing it to be more comfortable in doors than out for those months... Horses should be kept outside 24/7 with the option of walking themselves into some sort of shelter or behind a wall that blocks wind. I do not care if its in training to become superman, neither does the horse. I do not care if it has expensive shoes, neither does the horse. I do not care if humans think its bed time, neither does the horse. I do not care if it will get wet, dirty, cold, hot, if flies are bugging it, if the sun bleaches its coat, if it gets in the occasional fisty cuff with a pasture mate, if its hard to catch or if no one is here to watch its every move. And guess what, neither does your horse. 

Horses belong outside. Period. End of story. What gives humans comfort does not give horses (or any other live stock) comfort. I like to sleep alone, with a fan on to prevent noise, in my room, on my bed. My horse would find this appalling! She likes to sleep with her buddies, in the warm sunshine standing in her field. And if its raining she turns her butt to the wind, drops her head and snoozes threw the rain. In my opinion, its not the large field and grass access thats mandatory. _Its the ability to live as nature designed, outside._ Out in the weather, be it rain, sun or snow. Out where they can see, hear and smell what is going on. Not confined to four small walls in a dark barn. Even if the paddock is small and the horse must be kept separate it can still feel the breeze, enjoy the weather, hop, skip, buck and roll when it so pleases. A horse needs this. 

Confining any horse to a life time sentence of stalling and assuming because the animal is worked every day its OK is obscene. Just because big show jerks in it for the money do this with there maulti-thousand dollar horses doesn't make it right. Any one who knows horses knows these horses too would rather spend their time outside. Or loved by a young girl who thinks to world of them, not just someone who has a fancy name and a fancy farm seeing them as a dollar sign. Lastly, confining a horse to a stall and _assuming_ because its being worked its OK blows my mind. If I locked you in my bathroom and let you out for one hour to hand rake my arena, would this make YOU happy? You wouldn't be free to take a walk, go anywhere, talk to anyone or have any kind of a life. But I'd feed you, and bathe you, put you in the bathroom and let you out once a day to do some sort of chore for me. I cannot be convinced that this would make it OK. If it is, well, come on over because I could use some help.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

New_image said:


> If I locked you in my bathroom and let you out for one hour to hand rake my arena, would this make YOU happy? You wouldn't be free to take a walk, go anywhere, talk to anyone or have any kind of a life. But I'd feed you, and bathe you, put you in the bathroom and let you out once a day to do some sort of chore for me. I cannot be convinced that this would make it OK. If it is, well, come on over because I could use some help.


Sorry - you cannot compare humans to horses.

However for the record - life in the office cube world is pretty much like stall board with limited turnout.


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## New_image (Oct 27, 2007)

MLS did you choose to apply for the job of office work or did someone demand that you do this for the next thirty years? If you chose to, then, that is your fault. I chose to have a outside occupation and am self employed. If someone demanded you do this, then, I am sorry, that does suck!


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

New_image said:


> MLS did you choose to apply for the job of office work or did someone demand that you do this for the next thirty years? If you chose to, then, that is your fault. I chose to have a outside occupation and am self employed. If someone demanded you do this, then, I am sorry, that does suck!


Reading between the lines - all the purty horsies should roam free?


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

New_image said:


> MLS did you choose to apply for the job of office work or did someone demand that you do this for the next thirty years? If you chose to, then, that is your fault. I chose to have a outside occupation and am self employed. If someone demanded you do this, then, I am sorry, that does suck!


Or like the people that live in an area that board with turn out is not an option, maybe MLS ended up in an office job because it was what was available that would pay what she needed to earn to keep her family afloat. Maybe MLS (no idea, just saying) is like so many people who does not have the option to wait for the ideal job to roll along.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Alwaysbehind said:


> Or like the people that live in an area that board with turn out is not an option, maybe MLS ended up in an office job because it was what was available that would pay what she needed to earn to keep her family afloat. Maybe MLS (no idea, just saying) is like so many people who does not have the option to wait for the ideal job to roll along.


Thank you AB.

I was a full time farmer until my husband's kidneys failed and we had to relocate for his 3x weekly dialysis treatments. Thanks for the kick in the teeth new _image.

I do have an office job. I need medical insurance and I need to pay the bills. I also have a boarding stable, train, teach and compete. I do more work before 7 a.m. than most people do all day.


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## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

sarahver said:


> I must remember to mention that training is ineffective to all my friends that own dogs. I have many friends with dogs, all of which were trained without the use of a crate. It's just like horse training really, they are still babies for a few years and make mistakes but it is an ongoing process. With patience, consistency and effort the dog really does become well trained, I am not making up 'theories'.
> 
> 
> 
> I must let everyone back home know this also. Several have dogs that are allowed inside the house and in the yard (doggy door) while my friends are at work do not destroy the place while they are gone. Others just have the run of the yard. Did they destroy things in the puppy years? Yes of course, but they were trained out of it and can be trusted to behave in their owners absence. Dogs are incredibly smart and can be trained to do amazing things, training them to behave while you are gone is not the most amazing training feat I have ever heard of.


I just wanted to chime in on this, because I believe that, like me, AB has some experience as a dog trainer in a professional sense.

Some dogs are destructive by nature. Some dogs turn to destruction as an outlet - a side effect of taking a high activity breed and putting them in a home where owners work 9-5. This doesn't make the dog bad or the owner bad. Crating a dog for their own safety as well as the owner's sanity is not a failure on the owner's part, any more than it is a failure on the dog's part for being a "get bored-get destructive" nature.

I don't crate my own dogs, but I am also home full time and most people don't have that option. In training I regularly recommend the use of crates for dogs belonging to working families. Is it kinder to the dog to leave it loose in the house and risk it chewing or eating power cords or other things that could harm it? (or like my best friend recently experienced, getting in the bathroom trash and eating insulin needles?) Protecting your dog is part of dog ownership, and that includes keeping them safe when they are unsupervised.

I have to wonder at people who claim a dog getting destructive is purely a lack of training. Yes, sometimes that is the case. But sometimes it is not, and I know first-hand some bad habits are extremely difficult if not impossible to train a dog out of when you are NOT there to observe the behavior. My own dogs are impeccably trained and have excellent manners. But two of them are counter-surfers. If I left food out in the kitchen, and left the house, I guarantee that food would not be there when I got home. They would never touch it when I am standing there - but frankly, training only extends that far. 

Anyone who thinks every dog in the world can be trained out of destructive behavior is fooling themselves and obviously lacking in experience with a wide range of different canine personalities. Protecting your dog - by crating them - is sometimes the only option, and it's silly to think of it as cruel.

I wont get too much into the turnout discussion because I think there are two sides to the story, and one is not more valid than the other. I do believe in turnout for horses - and it's what I choose to personally do with my own. But I was also outside at 2 pm yesterday shutting my horses in their stalls, until 10 pm last night, because our location was under a tornado watch. Protecting the animals that rely on me is a greater concern than living up to some fluffy expectation that there is only one answer to this question.

I've said it once, I'll say it a million times more, because "one-true-way-isms" really **** me off. There IS no one-size-fits-all answer in the horse world, not anywhere.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Indyhorse said:


> Anyone who thinks every dog in the world can be trained out of destructive behavior is fooling themselves and obviously lacking in experience with a wide range of different canine personalities. Protecting your dog - by crating them - is sometimes the only option, and it's silly to think of it as cruel.
> 
> 
> I've said it once, I'll say it a million times more, because "one-true-way-isms" really **** me off. There IS no one-size-fits-all answer in the horse world, not anywhere.


Respectfully Indy (and anyone else I managed to tick off), I just want to point out that I was simply illustrating cultural differences. I have not said that crate training is wrong or ineffective at any stage. My comment regarding it being considered inhumane in other parts of the world is true, again it is a cultural difference. Now I am here in the States and I can see that it works for people and that is fine by me. I just wanted to point out that others have a different approach that works for them. Which was then refuted. 

Just in case anyone missed these particular comments:



sarahver said:


> Things are different in the US,* I do not wish to comment on whether it is right or wrong*, only to illustrate that in other parts of the world, dog crates _would_ be considered inhumane.


And here:



sarahver said:


> I just want to clarify a few things about the dog crate issue. Not one person has said that dog crates are evil. From what I can tell other countries do it differently, so far I think we have had people from Aus, NZ, Ireland, England and Wales chime in with their opinion or experiences.* Doesn't make anyone wrong or right, it is simply different in different countries. Simple.*


To each his own.


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## New_image (Oct 27, 2007)

If its a kick in the teeth MLS, which, I apologize I would have no idea this was a sore spot with you, why do you wish this for your horse? 

Anyways, no. If you bothered to read my original post it said no where that all the pretty ponies should roam free, like I'm a blissfully un-aware air head, now did it?


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## Horsesdontlie (Mar 11, 2011)

I'm not exactly sure if the problem here is just stalls, or anything that is not pasture. My horse is currently in a 12'x24', he gets out at least 3 times a week for at least two hours. Frankly I don't know how anyone has the time to turn out there horse or ride for more. Where I live there is NO option for pasture board unless if I want to pay ridiculous amounts for a stable that won't have anything other than a pasture. Or if I just never want to see my horse I could send him over an hour away and leave him in some persons property and see him once a week........no thank you. Riding horses is unnatural, if we want to get nit picky. I go to school and work....it just doesn't really work here in the Los Angeles area.

I must be a bad pet owner, my dogs love their crates and get locked up at night. One dog pees in the house, so thats why he is crated. The other is crated just because (family reasons, if it was up to me she wouldn't be....its like freakin politics in my house) Other wise they are outside in a big back yard for 16 hours with one 20 minute walk per day.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

New_image said:


> If its a kick in the teeth MLS, which, I apologize I would have no idea this was a sore spot with you, why do you wish this for your horse?


If you read the thread you would realize that MLS' horses are not kept in stalls unless medically necessary.

I highly doubt anyone on this thread is saying turn out is bad.

Everyone is just saying that there is no cut and dried one way to do things. The other way is not wrong. Just because you do it this way does not make those who do it that way cruel.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

New_image said:


> If its a kick in the teeth MLS, which, I apologize I would have no idea this was a sore spot with you, why do you wish this for your horse?


READ.

I do NOT believe in 24/7 stalled horses. However I do not believe it is CRUEL.

It's a kick in the teeth because you assume I chose to work in a cube. It wasn't my choice - it's the life that was handed to me. And id handed to many people.

Thank the good Lord for those people who work in cube land that allow you to have and do the things you do.


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## Levade (Apr 13, 2011)

No-matter how you phrase it, if you keep a horse inside, it is for your convenience, not his wellbeing, and that makes me uncomfortable. I don't have a garden, so I don't have a dog. Yes, I would love to have a dog, but it would be unfair to keep it indoors for the majority of each day. Horses are no different. If I couldn't turn out my horses, I wouldn't have horses.


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## Levade (Apr 13, 2011)

New_image said:


> A horse doesn't need 5+ acres of lush green pasture and juniper trees to nap under, saying that is un-realistic. However keeping them stalled for any period of time is a much less healthy alternative. Perhaps healthy isn't the right term, less desired from the horses point of view might fit better. Its impossible to argue that point. Not every one has acreage at there disposal or the finances to safely fence that acreage, I get that. But if you're _going_ to own multiple horses people; you're _going_ to need multiple fences! Assume this. Don't just jail time the naughty horse, make her a separate paddock. She can be outside, in the sunshine, free to toss a buck here and trot there, still see the herd and communicate. Same goes for the thin horse or the accident prone horse. Separate paddock... right next door. Why is this hard?
> 
> With the rare exceptions of a injury requiring time to heal in a confined area or the one in 10,000 horses who are allergic to a certain type of insect at a certain season causing it to be more comfortable in doors than out for those months... Horses should be kept outside 24/7 with the option of walking themselves into some sort of shelter or behind a wall that blocks wind. I do not care if its in training to become superman, neither does the horse. I do not care if it has expensive shoes, neither does the horse. I do not care if humans think its bed time, neither does the horse. I do not care if it will get wet, dirty, cold, hot, if flies are bugging it, if the sun bleaches its coat, if it gets in the occasional fisty cuff with a pasture mate, if its hard to catch or if no one is here to watch its every move. And guess what, neither does your horse.
> 
> Horses belong outside. Period. End of story. What gives humans comfort does not give horses (or any other live stock) comfort.


So so true!

People say "nice airy light stall". But the horse doesn't care, it's still a cage!


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## Levade (Apr 13, 2011)

Alwaysbehind said:


> Or like the people that live in an area that board with turn out is not an option, maybe MLS ended up in an office job because it was what was available that would pay what she needed to earn to keep her family afloat. Maybe MLS (no idea, just saying) is like so many people who does not have the option to wait for the ideal job to roll along.


 

But she can make that decision for herself. I don't feel that we have the right to do so for our animals. If I couldn't keep my horse in a way that I felt was ethical, I wouldn't have a horse. If I couldn't afford to feed/shoe/vet my horse I wouldn't have a horse. Same reasoning, I wouldn't limit the welfare of the animal, just because I wanted a pony all of my own.


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## New_image (Oct 27, 2007)

Quite honestly I did read but forgive me for not remembering the last ten pages of who said what. I only responded to your comment, why then are you arguing with my post? Because, if you read it, you'll note I also do not like to see 24/7 stalled horses and like you did not say it was cruel. In fact, I started the post by saying not "in most cases" cruel. Boy do you people like to argue for the sake of arguing no matter "what side you are on"? And AB, I thought you were "done banging your head against a wall" LONG ago  
Lastly, MLS. Just because you're not a fan of working in a cube doesn't mean I should tip my hat to the rest of the "sorry souls" who somehow "do what they do to allow me to do what I do". My sister loves her "cube job" as president of a bank, shes an indoor girl. Several other friends are also. Anyways, office work is just as off topic as caging dogs and I for one am not trying to argue. Hence the sarcasm and smileys.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Levade, I have a Great Dane. Any reputable Dane breeder will tell you that Danes are _house pets, _and don't do well with temperature extremes. 

My dog is in the house the majority of the time, because that's what's best for her health and well being. To make a Dane stay outside is cruel, and contributes to the breakdown of their health. My dog actually_ prefers_ to be in the house.

People in California and Arizona have horses, and those states have little turnout areas due to various reasons. Telling those folks they don't have a right to own horses just because there aren't acres of pasturage to turn them out on, is pretty narrow minded.

My horses are turned out the majority of the time, and only come in during inclement weather. I like that they're out, because I think that's the most natural way for a horse to be. However, when I boarded, I had limited turnout choices. 

If someone doesn't own their own place, and let's not forget that the majority of people who own horses board, then turnout is at the whim of the BO and the acreage available. So those people shouldn't be allowed to have horses, just because some stranger thinks it's cruel if their horses aren't out 24/7/365?

Sorry, but I don't agree. _Most_ of us wouldn't own horses if we were required to have vast acreage on which to turn them out.


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## Levade (Apr 13, 2011)

> Some dogs are destructive by nature. Some dogs turn to destruction as an outlet - a side effect of taking a high activity breed and putting them in a home where owners work 9-5.


How is that the dog's fault? It is the owner's fault for bringing an unsuitable dog, that they do not have the time to care for, into their home. 

But like I said, I won't make excuses for myself, I have no yard and work long days = cannot provide adequate care for a dog. So I don't have a dog...


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## Levade (Apr 13, 2011)

> Telling those folks they don't have a right to own horses just because there aren't acres of pasturage to turn them out on, is pretty narrow minded.


Vast degree of acreage is not necessary - half an acre a horse, even just a surfaced arena or dirt lot is better than nothing.

If I couldn't afford basic hoof/teeth/vet care or feed, and yet had several horses, would that be okay? 

Because I fail to see how not having enough room to turn out a horse is any different?


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Levade said:


> But she can make that decision for herself. I don't feel that we have the right to do so for our animals. If I couldn't keep my horse in a way that I felt was ethical, I wouldn't have a horse.


But you are making the decision for your horse.
Something you seem to say is wrong for everyone else.




Levade said:


> How is that the dog's fault? It is the owner's fault for bringing an unsuitable dog, that they do not have the time to care for, into their home.


Now Levade thinks every dog with separation anxiety issues that can not find an owner who works from home should be euthanized.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Alwaysbehind said:


> You are asking if it works over there?
> 
> I am guessing that there are lots of dogs that are put down because there are some issues that just do not train away easily and a crate keeps the dog safe and the home safe.
> 
> ...


No you are not stuck on that hi way alone. I travel it with you. 

I train and show one dog in obedience.. will be doing it with the second dog 'soon.' I now have kennel runs outside (10X10x6) with dog houses but in bad weather (too hot or too cold) I crate my dogs when I am not home. Fact is, I have to go to work during the day.. it is an awful fact of life but that is what is necessary to provide a roof.

When I am at work, which is a 38 mile one way drive, I do not want to be concerned that my puppy might find it fun to chew on a light socket or electric cord or one of my cats. Dogs are crated in large crates when they are not kenneled outside. When I am home they are with me all the time in the house or out side.

Europe has its own rules. The UK does not allow personal ownership of guns. The US does (and yes I have two). The UK does not allow fox hunting anymore. The US does (and yes, I have ridden to hounds and we NEVER caught a fox por coyote but we all had a good time). In the US there is a LOT of space and most people can and do turn out horses.. and there are areas out west where horses are out all the time. Meanwhile there are working horses in stables in NY City that are only hand walked and ridden.. the rest of the time they are in stalls. 

I believe in humane treatment of animals and mine have always had top of the line care from both vets and myself.. best feed I could make or purchase (we have land here and make hay on many farms.. I used to own one). 

Would my treatment of animals be considered 'humane' in Europe? Maybe not. I don't live there and my animals certainly act fine and look good. 

And then we can see animals in countries NOT Europe, the US or Canada and see how they are treated.. often horribly (dogs are eaten in parts of Asia and Horses are eaten in many parts of the world _including Europe). _

Stabling a horse 24/7 because it cannot be caught is not smart. I don't like stabling 24/7 because it is a LOT more work and costs more and I think it can contribute to things like colic. Other than that, the horse stabled 24/7 is better cared for than a cart horse in some third world country with harness sores and ribs sticking out and sore feet. 

Before getting all bent outta shape over a horse stabled 24/7 and calling it cruel, or getting all bent outta shape over a dog being crated while the owner is at work, maybe the effort would be better spent trying to improve the conditions under which dogs and horses live in places like Afghanistan....


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## Levade (Apr 13, 2011)

Alwaysbehind said:


> But you are making the decision for your horse.
> Something you seem to say is wrong for everyone else.
> 
> 
> ...


 
Lol separation anxiety issues... Psyhcobabble 

No, I think that if you live in a flat and work 9 - 5, maybe a Border Collie or Springer Spaniel isn't the dog for you. A Greyhound or toy breed would be better. Surely people think these things through? :-| You wouldn't just go out and buy an unsuitable breed because it's pretty or whatever... 

I think it's because in my area, having a horse or dog is a pretty major thing, as they are so expensive, and the laws for keeping animals are so strict, a lot of thought goes into it...


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Elana said:


> No you are not stuck on that hi way alone. I travel it with you.
> 
> I train and show one dog in obedience.. will be doing it with the second dog 'soon.' I now have kennel runs outside (10X10x6) with dog houses but in bad weather (too hot or too cold) I crate my dogs when I am not home. Fact is, I have to go to work during the day.. it is an awful fact of life but that is what is necessary to provide a roof.
> 
> ...


Well said Elana.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

High fives to Elana!



Levade said:


> No, I think that if you live in a flat and work 9 - 5, maybe a Border Collie or Springer Spaniel isn't the dog for you. A Greyhound or toy breed would be better. Surely people think these things through? :neutral: You wouldn't just go out and buy an unsuitable breed because it's pretty or whatever...


I agree. Totally. (hey, you walked into this yourself)

The dog in question is a greyhound. 

Good try though.


And separation anxiety is so not psycho babble.


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## Levade (Apr 13, 2011)

Just because there are worse things out there, does not make it okay. That's like saying the guy who starves his horses is entitled to do so, because the guy down the road beats up his...


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## Delfina (Feb 12, 2010)

Levade said:


> Yes, I would love to have a dog, but it would be unfair to keep it indoors for the majority of each day.


Uhm.... does this mean I should go throw my dog outside and then listen to him cry to be INSIDE? My hubby and I are extremely fortunate in that we work from home. Our dog can literally do whatever he wants, inside/outside, front yard/back yard, minimum of 3 walks per day and so forth. Whatever he feels like, he gets since it's not difficult for us to walk the 10 feet to let him in or out as he requests. Guess what his absolute favorite thing is? Snoozing in his chair (yes, my 130lb spoiled Mastiff has an oversized easy chair) in our home office. 

He spent a week outside once, or at least tried. We were on vacation and he stayed with relatives, they have 4 fenced acres, 2 dogs of their own and a gigantic heated dog house. Their plan was for him and the other dogs to spend the day while they were at work, outside. My dog sat on their doorstep and cried until their renter next door felt horrible and let him spend the days in HER house!! 

So tell me exactly, how is my dog being inside, unfair to him?


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Wow, just wow. 

I have read through all 11 pages of this thread and am just amazed. 

In re: stabling vs. turnout. Of course 24/7 turnout on grass with free access to shelter is ideal. No one is arguing that it is not ideal. However, less than ideal does not = cruel. There's a sliding scale and shades of gray. The way most competive horses are kept; for example, lots of exercise, lots of attention, limited, carefully supervised turnout is less than ideal, not cruel. Locked in a stall 24/7, no turnout, no exercise, no attention, no normal herd dynamic/socialization, yes, that's cruel. 

FYI, I have known horses that could not be turned out with others. Not arguing about what created that trait (likely previous mismanagement) but those horses do exist. 

Dog crates? Interesting that there's such a clear cultural/regional difference of opinion about these. All of my dogs have been crate trained on the direct instruction of reputable successful dog trainers. The first 2 dogs were with me 24/7 as I worked outdoors on horse farms, one had an obedience certificate and one had her companioin dog rating. So 1.) they were well trained by any definition. 2.) they got tons and tons of daily exercise and 3.) they had "jobs" and 4.) the closest thing to ideal circumstances possible. I used crates for puppy training and housebreaking, and progressed to the situation AlexS describes - crate door open, and the dog coming and going at will once the training foundation was well established. All my dogs would "kennel" on voice command or hand signal willingly, all would put themselves to bed in the crate when tired without any command or interference form me. 

Calling crates cruel or comparing it to working in the cube farm is a subtle, insidious form of anthropomorphisation. Dogs are not people; they do not feel confined in crates or dens, they feel secure and able to defend themselves. A common version of this line of thinking is when owners buy/build dog houses too large for the dog, thinking the dog wants "room to stretch out." No, the dog feels insecure if he can't touch three sides of the enclosure; his instinct tells him this isn't a secure place to sleep because he can't defend it. 

Separation anxiety in dogs is real, and I have never heard a legitimate dog trainer say otherwise. Levade, perhaps you might want to research the topic before dismissing it outright? Most dogs experience it in small, managable amounts. Three of my dogs would express separation anxiety by sulking and appearing lethargic and despondent, but otherwise be their normal, impeccably behaved selves, one, the neurotic adopted dog, would be destructive. Not as bad as some, but enough that crating her when we had to leave her for longer than a couple of hours was the only safe and sensible option. 

For those who dismiss crate training as "caging" or "cruelty", have you read anything behind the reasoning or the method of training? Or do you just think it's shoving a dog in a cage until you have time to deal with it? 

I sincerely hope if I were introduced to a new or unfamiliar training tool, however odd it sounded to me at first, I would not be so quick to judge or dismiss it and would do some research first.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

I probably shouldn't even bother responding to this thread but here goes.

Personally I do not like or agree with stalling horses 24/7 unless there is a medical or other valid reason for it. However, I don't think it's "cruel" and "terrible" for all horses. I know more than one horse that actually prefers it's stall. In this particular case I don't agree with with the owner's decision.

My horses live outdoors 24/7 w/ a shelter. They have separate turnouts/sacrifice paddocks because my gelding is an abusive jerk who WILL literally take chunks of flesh off other horses or kick the crap out of them when he's "guarding" the shelter or food. I am lucky that he is ok in the pasture with other horses (generally) as long as there is plenty of space and it is a very stable herd (i.e. few horses and NO position jockeying). But I am an extremely lucky individual in my horse keeping situation. If I had to board, Soda would be in individual turnout preferably with no shared fence line for his own safety. Not to mention the safety of other horses.

Crating is not cruel if used properly. My dog was crate trained as a puppy. A good thing he was too because he was forced (due to an injury) to spend a month living in a crate and only allowed out for bathroom breaks on a leash. He also suffers from severe thunderstorm anxiety and a crate (or bathtub in a pinch) helps to relieve his fears while keeping him safe. Generally I don't crate Mo during the day, but he is probably the most relaxed dog ever. That is his particular personality. If there is a storm, he will be crated all day. Otherwise I risk coming home to an injured/terrified dog and possibly a destroyed house. How is it cruel to give my dog exactly what he needs to feel secure?

Mo's full sister is crated because she is naturally more energetic, nervous, and destructive. Before you say "oh she needs more room to run or a job or exercise" this is a well-trained hunting dog with 10 acres of space to run on while we are home (couple hours in the morning, hour at noon, and a 4-5 hours at night). 

Separation anxiety is not psychobabble, I'm not sure how you can talk about the stereotypies some horses develop as a fact while denying that dogs develop abnormal behaviors for various reasons. Crating (again used correctly) gives a properly crate trained dog a feeling of security. Dogs with separation anxiety are insecure and destructive due to the insecurity. Should a destructive dog be put down? Or managed properly so that they can have a happy life?

Training to not be destructive works for SOME dogs. Not all. It depends on the reason for the behavior. If the behavior is due to boredom or simply not knowing better it can be trained away or the dog can be managed correctly to fix the problem. If the behavior is due to anxiety or other "mental" issues it isn't nearly as easy and sometimes it isn't possible.

I'm always very leary of the words "always" or "never" when applied to animals or people. It's very important to look at the individual's personality when making decisions about training or caring for an animal. What works for one doesn't always work for another. I've associated with literally thousands of dogs over the years (from birth to death and everything in between) and have seen the entire spectrum of personality and behavoir and no two were the same.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Great post, MN. Made a couple of good points I missed.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

Thank you, I was thinking the same thing about yours!


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

MN and Maura, you said in two posts what I have been trying to say all along. Thank you.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

I also want to challenge the use of the word "natural" when it comes to how we care for domesticated horses and dogs. It's "natural" for dogs to form packs with a defined pack order and hunt food as a pack. Am I being cruel to my dog because he's an only dog? Wouldn't it be better to allow him to form a pack and hunt his own food? Is feeding him kibble instead of letting him hunt equivilent to substituting grain and concentrates for forage/grazing in horses? Am I denying him necessary socialization by keeping him by himself? It it's cruel to turn a horse out by himself because he's a herd animal, isn't it also cruel to keep a pack animal by itself? 

Isn't it more sensible to admit that nothing we do with companion animals is "natural" and work on defining best practices by different criteria?


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## Levade (Apr 13, 2011)

*If you had indeed read this through, you would have seen that I was coming from an ethical viewpoint, rather than a natural one. Natural only comes into play because nature shaped the horse's body and mind, and so we must try and replicate certain aspects of their natural lifestyle in order to maintain a physically and psychologically healthy horse.*

*I'm not saying it is 'nice' for a horse to have turnout. I'm saying it is essential to their physical and mental wellbeing, to have at least a couple of hours free turnout a day, with at least one other horse. Ideal would be 24/7 turnout, 365 days a year, but this is not always feasible due to health reasons. However, if I could only keep my horses stabled 24/7 (minus hand grazing and riding), I would not keep horses, end of.*


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Levade, I am well aware you did not use the word "natural." I was responding to someone else's use of that word. 

No one in this thread has yet disagreed that 24/7 turnout on good grass with free access shelter is the healthiest way to keep horses. We all agree on that. What we disagree is how we characterize people who keep horses differently, for whatever reason. You chose to characterize it as cruel, I think of it as a practical, pragmatic decision that's individual to the horse owner and horse. 

The problem with defining this as an "ethical" problem is that it implies there is a clear right and wrong. This is where I disagree. I don't think it's a straight forward, black and white, ethical decision. Geography, finances, available resourses, individual horse's needs, use and purpose of the horse all are legitmate factors in the decision. I think good horsekeepers get as close to the ideal as feasible given those factors.

Oh, and BTW - I keep my horses turned out 24/7, on well maintained pasture, with free access to shelter. I am not defending my horsekeeping in this argument, I am defending other reasonable, educated, informed horseowners who chose differently than I do.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

FWIW I had one horse for years. I had a 2 acre pasture and a run in shed. The ONLY time my horse saw another horse was when I fox hunted or rode at Pony Club or showed. There was no money for two horses so we had one. My Brother and I practically lived on or with that horse summers out of school and rode him bareback and double all over the countryside! He was a wonderful horse and I had him for 20 years (eventually I had two horses). For quite awhile when he was in his elder years he lived with a herd of dairy heifers. 

My point is you CAN keep a horse by itself and the horse will be fine. Certainly mine was. He was the horse I trained to a very high level of dressage (to see if I could) and he is the ONLY horse I trained to do an "air above the ground." He would hold a Levade for about 12 seconds.. very pretty and folded. He was a cremello gelding of indiscriminate breeding. He also hated stadium jumping and I taught him to push the bars off of jumps so he could just walk thru (a parlor trick found to be largely unamusing by the Jump Crew). 

As to the dog thing.. I train dogs (no horse right now). True Separation Anxiety is a medical condition. It is a dog mental health issue that can be helped with a variety of meds from Clomicalm to Prozac and is caused by a chemical imbalance in the dog's brain. It usually cannot be untrained and it can manifest in a dog that will destroy his crate and the house in an attempt to get out of the house.. often coupled with loss of bladder and bowel control. These dogs will cause severe damage to themselves in an attempt to escape both crate and house. They have complete melt downs and panic. Some dogs do not respond to medication and euthanizing is the only option. They cannot be left at a vet without being tranquilized. _A dog with true SA will hurt itself, sometimes even kill itself, in its panic (such as jumping out a 5th story window)._

FWIW the dogs I have are a high drive breed. I have German Shepherd dogs and when I had the farm I had a German Sheperhd dog who herded cattle. _They are fine when I leave them kenneled all day and go to work._

Last but not least, (and OT but I will mention it because it is mentioned above) dogs do not form a linear pack structure like wolves do. Dogs did not descend from wolves (it appears dogs and wolves share a common ancestor but dogs are not wolves that have been 'tamed'). Wolves form packs based on family groups and dogs do not. Dog packs are largely fluid with the "leader" changing depending on the situation and what is needed and what dogs have the skill at that moment that benefits the group. Take a look at this: http://www.nonlineardogs.com/


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## luckyT (Apr 26, 2011)

I agree with mls,evn though the horse does need out,you dont have to call his owner stupid.


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## Magaidh (Apr 13, 2011)

maura said:


> The problem with defining this as an "ethical" problem is that it implies there is a clear right and wrong. This is where I disagree. I don't think it's a straight forward, black and white, ethical decision.


In some cases, it IS cut-and-dry. A horse that spends 24/7 in a stall with minimal attention or work WILL suffer physical and psychological problems, versus a horse kept outside with no attention whatsoever. 

A horse that leaves his stall one or two hours a day will not be at his optimal health, physically or mentally. 



maura said:


> Geography, finances, available resourses, individual horse's needs, use and purpose of the horse all are legitmate factors in the decision. I think good horsekeepers get as close to the ideal as feasible given those factors.


I agree. Unfortunately, there are many bad horsekeepers out there. (This is not directed at anyone specifically).


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

maggie, 

No one's disagreeing that the situation described in the OP is idiotic and cruel - keeping a horse in 24/7 because it's hard to catch and wondering why the animal's behavior deteriorates. 

What I am disagreeing about is characterizing anyone who doesn't allow their horses to be out 24/7, such as someone with limited or hard to maintain turnout, or someone trying to maintain a show coat, etc., but balances that decision with others about the horse's welfare, is also cruel. I also disagree that this is a purely ethical black and white, like murder, lying, cheating and stealing. For instance, I think you can be a good horseowner, with happy, healthy, well maintained horses with 12 hour a day turnout.


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## Levade (Apr 13, 2011)

The thing is, I feel that on this subject, there is a clear right and wrong. Any vet will tell you that coming from a health and welfare point of view, the _correct_ way to keep a horse is out 24/7 in a group. 


Now for various reasons, this cannot always be accomplished. (although like I said, I feel that lack of turnout is equivalent to lack of money for basic care) People are trying to argue that they are doing it for the horse - that he likes his stall, or he is safer in his stall (this is simply not true, unless it is some medical reason, like the insect bite allergy, but this is extremely rare) but in actual fact they are doing it for their own convenience - or their horse's welfare is limited by their means, and you cannot justify this in any other way, so you must either accept it, or try to change it. 


I personally don't feel that keeping a horse stabled is cruel, as long as it gets SOME free turnout and daily interaction with other horses. This is a _basic _requirement, like food, water and hoof care. To deny any horse this, such as keeping a horse stabled 24/7 (not including riding or hand grazing) IS cruel, there is no getting away from it. 

If it were a dog or cat, kept alone in a small box 24 hours a day apart from controlled walks on a short lead, you would have this animal confiscated, and may even face a fine or prison sentence. And yet with horses it is seen as perfectly acceptable, even though potentially fatal physical problems such as colic and joint disease, and behavioural stereotypes such as box walking, crib biting, weaving and wind sucking (i.e _severe_ mental illness) all stem from excessive stabling, and so really testify that this practise is not 'okay'.


Is it okay to keep a lion - another highly social animal that roams over vast areas in the wild, and actually of a similar weight and size to a horse - alone in a 12' by 12' cage? (Or maybe not quite 24/7 - it's taken out twice a day and made to perform tricks. The metaphor is still solid) If you think that this is cruelty, and yet 24/7 stabling is not, then you have a very warped viewpoint. A viewpoint that is shared by a large number of horseowners, it is like there is some mental block when it comes to stables, people do not seem to click that call it what you will, it is still keeping a large animal in a small cage. 


Of course something like sawing at your horses' mouth with an overly harsh bit until it bleeds is cruel, and is seen frequently at yards. Certain methods used on Big Lick horses are undeniably cruel. They cause active mental and physical suffering, but are rife in the show world. Breeding horses with known (intensely painful!) genetic diseases is cruel, and is still something seen every day. Obesity to the point of laminitus is all too common in the horse world. Doesn't mean that it is acceptable, and doesn't mean that people should not be educated so that it can be avoided.


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## SenSen (Apr 26, 2011)

*Hope I can ask a question within this post*

I just stumbled on your post and it seems to be answering my question, but here's my issue .....I have a 27 year old mare that I inherited, I have been taking care of her for years whenever her elderly previous owner was ill. I have had to go to the barn everytime it starts to snow or rain and put her into the barn, she was alone so she was able to stay in the isle way, but there where times we had snow and rain for several days, and I would have to keep her in (which drove me crazy) because obviously being cooped up she would become a real snot!! Well i've finally been able to move her to her new home. I have outside stalls, and have been putting her in at night (makes me feel safer), and during the day I leave the stalls open so she can get out of the weather. It has rained a couple days, and I have left her out, her old owner told me she would not go inside during bad weather, but whenever i went to the barn rain or snow she always had her head hanging out the dutch door? So now I've been given a gelding who was never stalled, he seems to be doing ok with me stalling him at night. So I guess the eldlerly owner has be totally paranoid, is she ok? can i leave her out during rain? I would close them up if there is lighting but at this point I don't feel as if I can stall him all day during bad weather, and I don't think she'll accept being stalled while he's out? I always had strict orders with her, and absolutely nothing with him...I am used to with her 3/4 of a quart of grain morning and night, flake of hay for breakfast, had to do a flake at lunch, and 3 at close up, and now it's a guessing game for him. He's way bigger than her so i'm trying to just give him more. She had no turn out at her previous place and now there is a very large turn out area...i've kept her in the paddock area where there is only a few patches of grass for a week now, yesterday was our first day to the big turn out, I left them out for an hour and was thankful they where angels to get back in....I would love to be able to let them in the turnout area but i'm scared to death of something happening (like flounder) to her because of my inexperience. My ferrier told me to mow the grass and that would help. I feel like the elderly lady has just made me a paranoid mess!!! Thanks for any help and sorry if i shouldn't have posted here


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

I think letting her make her own decision on where she wants to stand in when the weather is bad is probably what is best (as long as the other horse is not preventing her from getting under shelter).


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## Levade (Apr 13, 2011)

*Turnout!*

Because it did all get slightly blown out of proportion  So to clear a couple of things up, I don't think I phrased myself very well! I was upset on behalf of the horse, to be fair! I apologise to anyone I offended.

The girl in my original post, for the last year or so has kept her horse stabled 24/7, apart from riding. The horse has become increasingly bad tempered and difficult to ride. She asked me why, and I said he needed to be turned out, even for just an hour a day. The girl point blank refused, because he is difficult to catch, and she cannot be bothered to try and get him. Now at this point I should have stayed calm, but instead I came on here to rant and called her stupid. I didn't say anything mean or nasty to her face, I just shrugged at the time and got on with what I was doing.

Of course I will try my utmost to educate her, instead of just yelling because of her pig ignorence, but that wasn't really the point of the post. It was purely and simply a rant!

The thing is, I feel that on this subject, there is a clear right and wrong. Any vet will tell you that coming from a health and welfare point of view, the _correct_ way to keep a horse is out 24/7 in a group. A horse's muscoskeletal and digestive system can only function 100% when he is constantly on the move. 

Now for various reasons, this cannot always be accomplished. (although like I said, I feel that lack of turnout is equivalent to lack of money for basic care) People are trying to argue that they are doing it for the horse - that he likes his stall, or he is safer in his stall (this is simply not true, unless it is some medical reason, like the insect bite allergy, but this is extremely rare) but in actual fact they are doing it for their own convenience - or their horse's welfare is limited by their means, and you cannot justify this in any other way, so you must either accept it, or try to change it. 

I personally don't feel that keeping a horse stabled is cruel, as long as it gets SOME free turnout and daily interaction with other horses. This is a _basic _requirement, like food, water and hoof care. To deny any horse this, such as keeping a horse stabled 24/7 (not including riding or hand grazing) IS cruel, there is no getting away from it. 

If it were a dog or cat, kept alone in a small box 24 hours a day apart from controlled walks on a short lead, you would have this animal confiscated, and may even face a fine or prison sentence. And yet with horses it is seen as perfectly acceptable, even though potentially fatal physical problems such as colic and joint disease, and behavioural stereotypes such as box walking, crib biting, weaving and wind sucking (i.e _severe_ mental illness) all stem from excessive stabling, and so really testify that this practise is not 'okay'.

Is it okay to keep a lion - another highly social animal that roams over vast areas in the wild, and actually of a similar weight and size to a horse - alone in a 12' by 12' cage? (Or maybe not quite 24/7 - it's taken out twice a day and made to perform tricks. The metaphor is still solid) If you think that this is cruelty, and yet 24/7 stabling is not, then you have a very warped viewpoint. A viewpoint that is shared by a large number of horseowners, it is like there is some mental block when it comes to stables, people do not seem to click that call it what you will, it is still keeping a large animal in a small cage.


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

In the area of England I live horses are only turned out on most livery yards during the spring/summer and part of autumn because there isn't enough land available to let them have all year turnout and if they had all year turnout then there would be no decent grass for the next year. It isn't the best but you make do with what you've got. This girl approached you for help, prehaps instead of coming on here and insulting her you could have offered to work with her and her horse to help her get a horse that is easy to catch. Like the others said she opened the door for your help. Prehaps she is insecure in her own abilities which is why she doesn't turn him out and is struggling more than she wants to admit and wants to blame the horse. She asked for help, give it and then if you find she's unreceptive you have tried to help. I hope she doesn't come on here looking for help and find this thread.

As for crates being unusual in England, seriously? My dog is crate trained, I know plenty of other people who use a crate and I'm on another pet forum where one of the first pieces of advice to someone getting a new dog is get a crate. They're not some fancy new thing, you can get them anywhere, Argos, Pets At Home,eBay for example. Crating isn't cruel. It provides a den for the dogs and they're happier in there. When you live in a rented house they're a godsend especially when the dog grows bigger than you were expecting and the landlord isn't too keen on dogs. I even know someone who has a crate for her house rabbits, they're quite cute in their crate at night. My dog doesn't chew anymore but he's got very powerful jaws so when he was chewing he was destructive, the crate stopped him chewing anything dangerous while we were out because puppies can get where water can't and it helped with his house training. We got a crate for our dog before him because he had epilepsy and the crate provided a safe haven for him when we were out because unlike the house walls the crate walls had some give to them and it probably saved his life by preventing him from smashing his head on the wall or the floor during a fit.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Levade, I know you said that you don't have a dog because you don't have a garden and work long hours - but hypothetically speaking, if this were not the case, and you had a puppy. What would you do with the puppy while it were home alone? Say its a 3-6 month old pup? Would you secure him in a room of the house so he could not destroy things?

I do not have a fenced in yard, however if I did, I would not allow my dogs to be out there when I am not home - because they bark when they see someone, and continue to bark until that person leaves. I do not believe in a shock collar to prevent this, and I feel it is unfair to my neighbors to subject them to this. 
Also my dogs don't want to be left outside in the heat and the cold.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Wow, just.............wow. 

To the OP. I do agree with you up to a point. To keep the horse in simply because it is difficult to catch is one of the most nonsensical reasons to keep a horse stalled. However, I am also of the same mind as many others. While I don't personally agree with keeping a horse stalled for extended periods of time, sometimes, that is simply what is best for the individual situation. Like with, was it ?mls?, who has the horse with the severe reaction to bug bites? That horse is kept inside for it's own safety and wellbeing. On the other hand, there are some areas like CA and AZ that do have very limited land available and what is available is extremely expensive. Therefore, horse owners there do the best that they can with what they have. I'm quite sure that most of them would be very grateful if someone would swoop in with half a million dollars and buy 3 or 4 acres for them to turn their horses out on but what are the odds of that.

I am going to echo Maura here. Keeping a horse stalled under ideal conditions (the horse is taken out every day for a while and worked, walked, interacted with) may not be ideal for the horse's natural state, but it is a very long way from cruel. To leave a horse in a stall every moment of it's life with no outside time at all, even for riding, and no interaction with either humans or other horses is cruel, yes.

As for the dog thing......well, I guess I am a horrible dog owner as well. Every single one of my dogs is an outside dog. All but one of them is either chained or penned up at all times when it is not being worked. The pens they are turned out in must be very tall with a ceiling and a solid floor; therefore, the pens are not large due to price constraints. I raise and train border collies and, since they are a very high energy, high herding drive animal, they cannot be left loose at any time when the handler is not present. If they are put into a pen that is typical of a backyard fence (5 foot tall chainlink or wooden), they will dig out or climb over. 

It is in their nature that they _must_ find something to herd and they will do whatever it takes to obey that nature. On the rare occasion that one of them gets loose, it is not uncommon for them to travel to one of the neighboring pastures and herd the neighbor's cattle _through_ the fence and into our front yard. Neighbors don't appreciate that so we do the best we can to ensure that they don't get loose.

And, before anyone goes to thinking "Well, they just don't get enough exercise", they most certainly do. Whenever I go out on a trail ride for a few miles at a trot, I will take several dogs with me. We keep cattle during the summer and that usually equates to 8 or 10 hours of work and movement for the dogs per day. Even with all that, when we get home that night, they will sleep for a few hours and then be back up raring to go. It _has_ happened that one gets loose during the night after a full day of working and herded the neighbor's cattle.

It is not a lack of training either, these are very well trained dogs that have a fine tuned precision in all aspects of their handling that many dog owners could only dream of finding. It is simply their nature to herd and, if left to their own devices, they will herd and herd and herd until they literally run themselves to death. Therefore, they must be kept contained during non-working times for their own health and safety.


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## Whisper22 (Jan 2, 2011)

^^
Interesting. That must be really cool to work with those dogs. That makes me laugh though because city dogs are so different from country dogs. My mom has a weimerainer (however you spell that lol) and I guess they are bred to be bird hunting dogs but she's got to be the most spoiled, prissy dog I have ever met. She spends hours sleeping and when she does go outside she does her business and comes right back to the door where she will scratch and scratch until you let her in. It's a reall pain when I watch her at my house because my dog is in the backyard all day if the weather is nice.
I went to Colorado to visit some of my husbands family on their ranch and they had two queensland heelers. They were still pretty much puppies and liked to jump but even when I was playing with them they would get yelled at because that is just unacceptable for a ranch dog. They would be appalled by my dog then.


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## Hijack (Apr 27, 2011)

It's not cruel to keep a horse inside. Believe me, my horses are spoiled rotten and kept inside 24/7. Occasionally they'll get turned out but little pasture space and we have no grass plus it's so darn hot and they're much happier being inside during the day. As long as they are in good health and are fed well then it's not a big deal.


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## Hijack (Apr 27, 2011)

I disagree horses do not need to be out in a group. I've never kept horses in group turn-out, nor will I ever. Well haven't in the past 5 years or so. Everyone stays inside they're all fat healthy and in great shape. They get free-choice hay and decent food. They're all worked 1-2 hours a day. They will get turned out in dry-lots for maybe 3-4 hours a week if that. They're happy inside especially with how hot the weather is. Never had a colic since I've been doing this and no bad stall habits. It works for me and I have no intentions of changing that.


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## Whisper22 (Jan 2, 2011)

I wouldn't say the ONLY reason to keep a horse stalled is a medical condition. I would consider it to be wrong if it was ONLY out of laziness. There are several acceptable reasons to keep a horse stalled and I think a lot of people brought up those reasons on your other thread, myself included. My horse doesn't have a medical condition and we don't have a ton of land to make seperate corrals. I think my situation is a little more ideal for a horse that is stalled compared to others but I'm not going to judge just because someone is a little less fortunate.


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

I personally agree with you about turnout...for my horse...but I am not going to suggest that others do what I do just because it works for my horse. A big pet peeve of mine is when people speak in absolutes and then **** others for not agreeing. What works for one horse won't necessarily work for all horses.

Oh and maybe I'm not the norm but my horse has an allergy to insect bites so may not be as rare as you think  do I keep her in because of it? Hell no I put fly spray and a fly mask on her and turn her out! But that's what works for me and my horse...doesn't mean it's a good idea for others.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hijack (Apr 27, 2011)

Your lucky you can just put a fly mask and fly spray on your horse. I've had a couple horses with bad fly allergies... They were kept in 24/7 with heavy duty fans on them. But they would itch until they bled no matter what. But also I'm in Florida and your in Ohio. It's not to humid there haha.


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

My horses stay turned out in a group. We have 17 acres divided into two pastures that we switch the horses back and forth..They are only put in a stall for medical reasons..They have their herd totem pole and they live by that..Most of the time my horses are put on one side and my sister's on the other because she doesn't know how to lock a gate. They have grazing, minerals, and fed everyday..and free choice hay in winter..I've done this my whole life and never had a problem besides the fence getting torn down a few times..


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Whisper, it is very cool. They are fun and intelligent and have so much personality. I guess, re-reading my post, it kind of sounds like my dogs are used only for work and nothing else and I don't want folks to get the wrong idea. They are working dogs _and_ pets. When they are with one of us, they are just as content to sit there and be loved on as they are willing to work. I know that lots of people who have working dogs like that are convinced that letting the dog be a pet when it's not working will ruin it but in my experience, when you have that bond of friendship with the dog, they are more willing and eager to try to please you. That makes them work harder and obey better, at least with ours.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> Levade, I know you said that you don't have a dog because you don't have a garden and work long hours - but hypothetically speaking, if this were not the case, and you had a puppy. What would you do with the puppy while it were home alone? Say its a 3-6 month old pup? Would you secure him in a room of the house so he could not destroy things?
> 
> I do not have a fenced in yard, however if I did, I would not allow my dogs to be out there when I am not home - because they bark when they see someone, and continue to bark until that person leaves. I do not believe in a shock collar to prevent this, and I feel it is unfair to my neighbors to subject them to this.
> Also my dogs don't want to be left outside in the heat and the cold.


Our two current dogs, 2yo now that we got as puppies, have always had the run of the backyard as well as a dog door into the laundry to escape the weather. They come inside when we are home. And yep, they chew. We don't lock them up, we just limit things they can access. 

And on the other hand, the same as Smrobs, my dad has 3 working dogs and I have 1, who live in pens on the farm. They are in the pens when not with someone to prevent them harrassing livestock.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Could this not have been said in the original thread?


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## Levade (Apr 13, 2011)

People kept replying aimed at me, saying the same things, because I had posted again further down the thread and they hadn't read that far. Got tired of saying the same things over and over!

Like I said, sorry if I offended anyone, but that is my opinion, based on sound medical evidence.


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## Hijack (Apr 27, 2011)

AlexS said:


> Could this not have been said in the original thread?


Don't you know it's more fun to post topics saying the same thing =D


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

Hijack said:


> Your lucky you can just put a fly mask and fly spray on your horse. I've had a couple horses with bad fly allergies... They were kept in 24/7 with heavy duty fans on them. But they would itch until they bled no matter what. But also I'm in Florida and your in Ohio. It's not to humid there haha.


Ohio is just as humid as florida...just without the coastal breeze!!! Lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

Partly why I'm thinking of moving down there  your winters are nicer than ours I hear lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Moonstruck (Apr 22, 2011)

Alwaysbehind said:


> High fives to Elana!
> 
> 
> I agree. Totally. (hey, you walked into this yourself)
> ...


For the record always, greyhound do not need a lot of room to roam. Jsut because they are used as race dogs for entertainment, does not require a greyhound to lead a highly active lifestyle. greyhound are lazy dogs that just want to sleep all day and love on you. Greyhound are not hyper, like border collie and springer spaniels, because those two breeds are designed to WORK. 

I had a friend of mine whose parents died in a plane crash and because there was no one else at home to take the dogs out of their crates the dogs would be inside of their crates for VERY long hours until she and her sister finally arrived home. I babysat those dogs and took them out for 1 hr runs on my bike twice a day so that they would nap for the rest of the afternoon in their crates until it was time to head out again at night. That is the proper way for a spaniel or any type of working dog that require activity, to be care for. But unfortunately, the girls were in the middle of a devastating situation and had no way of changing that.


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## Moonstruck (Apr 22, 2011)

maura said:


> I also want to challenge the use of the word "natural" when it comes to how we care for domesticated horses and dogs. It's "natural" for dogs to form packs with a defined pack order and hunt food as a pack. Am I being cruel to my dog because he's an only dog? Wouldn't it be better to allow him to form a pack and hunt his own food? Is feeding him kibble instead of letting him hunt equivilent to substituting grain and concentrates for forage/grazing in horses? Am I denying him necessary socialization by keeping him by himself? It it's cruel to turn a horse out by himself because he's a herd animal, isn't it also cruel to keep a pack animal by itself?
> 
> Isn't it more sensible to admit that nothing we do with companion animals is "natural" and work on defining best practices by different criteria?


One thing that many people don't realize is that - YOU AND YOUR FAMILY is your dog's pack. And you, as a pack leader aka "the alpha dog" are not his equal but his master. If you ever see a dog lay down and expose his belly for a rub, that is him showing you his surrender to your touch. Which is not at all a bad thing. Some people have dogs that will jump or tower over you on the couch or growl when your hands are in his bowl and that means that he is displaying dominance. Which can and most often does lead to various behavioral problems.

Crate training is the best thing invented and creates boundaries between and owner and their dog and is a useful tool in housetraining as well as PUNISHMENT. Yes folks, punishment. Because I don't know about you but I lock my dog in when she takes a huge dump on the floor or pees in my cereal or eats my shoes because she is supposed to be reprimanded for bad behavior. Period. If you keep your dog out while he is tearing up your belongings and biting someone's ear off, then you will NEVER be able to correct him. If a dog has a dominance problem, you remind him that he is not your equal by rolling him onto his back and pressing lightly on his neck and force him to display surrender so that the dog understands the way a dog is NATURALLY meant to interperet "I AM NOT WORTHY!" and knows that you as a pack leader are the alpha male/female and will not tolerate bad behavior. Dogs need to be corrected when stepping out of line because it in the way dogs naturally learn in the wild.


DOESN'T ANYONE BESIDES ME WATCH THE DOG WHISPERER?!!?!? D:


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Hate to tell you, Moonstruck, but blanket statements based on breed just don't hold water. That's like saying that all Arabian horses are hot and flighty or all Appys are stubborn and pigheaded or all Quarter Horses are mellow and steady. It just isn't true. I've known quite a few BCs that were perfectly content to just lay around and be pets instead of seeking out herds to work.


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## Moonstruck (Apr 22, 2011)

smrobs said:


> Hate to tell you, Moonstruck, but blanket statements based on breed just don't hold water. That's like saying that all Arabian horses are hot and flighty or all Appys are stubborn and pigheaded or all Quarter Horses are mellow and steady. It just isn't true. I've known quite a few BCs that were perfectly content to just lay around and be pets instead of seeking out herds to work.


Talking about dogs. Not horses. So your response is invalid.


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## Moonstruck (Apr 22, 2011)

When dogs are bred they are bred by CHARACTERISTICS. Meaning that any purebred breed of dog is going to have the same attributes as the same breed living down the street. This doesn't mean they will have the same personality. But dogs have a standard to live by and if bred properly, will have the same charactaristic attributes as each other.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Dogs, horses, cattle, even people go by the same philosophy, so yes, my response is very valid. Saying that _all_ Greyhounds are couch potatoes is just like saying _all_ Border Collies are hyper or _all_ Pit Bulls are dangerous, it just doesn't fit. It is no different than what I said about horses and the same thing can be said about different races of people. You wouldn't dream of saying that all black people are uneducated or all hispanics are illegal or all whites are racist, would you?


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## Moonstruck (Apr 22, 2011)

I'm basically going to ignore your response because again it has nothing to do with what I said. And I have yet to ever hear of a border collie that wasn't ACTIVE. And pit bulls are the biggest heaps of love that I've ever met so calling the dangerous would not be my choice of words. They are terriers and so they are stubborn and I have owned a pit mix before that displayed each of the breeds she was mixed with. Dogs are very different from horses. And people are complex beings and goes WAY beyond off topic that really wasn't necessary at all to say. 

I'm spanish, so do you think I'm illegal?


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## Moonstruck (Apr 22, 2011)

This is the difference between people and dogs, people have a conscience. Dogs do not, they live in the moment.

Its like saying that a lion thinks about chasing a zebra because its not sure that it feels like it. Lions will chase a zebra because it is in their blood to hunt. They don't think about it they just do. They have to in order to survive.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Moonstruck said:


> And pit bulls are the biggest heaps of love that I've ever met so calling the dangerous would not be my choice of words.


But just like a collie is bred to herd, and a Greyhound is bred to chase rabbits around a track, so too is a Pit Bull bred to fight. So you are saying that the Greyhound and the Collie have to conform to the stereotypes of the breed, but Pit Bulls don't?


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

:rofl: Wow, purposefully avoid the point much?

Blanket statements based on breed are not statements of truth. For you to say that all <insert breed here> are <insert characteristic here> shows lack of experience with the breeds that you are talking about. No breed is going to have the exact same characteristics spread evenly over every single member of said breed. Each dog's own personality has a huge part to play in it, along with their history and how they were raised/treated.

For you to say that ALL Border Collies are active just proves that you don't have much experience with the breed. My family has been breeding, raising, and training BCs for about 20 years and yes, there _is_ such a creature as a lazy BC who has no desire to work. To insist that there isn't just proves your lack of knowledge on the subject.


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## Moonstruck (Apr 22, 2011)

Chiilaa said:


> But just like a collie is bred to herd, and a Greyhound is bred to chase rabbits around a track, so too is a Pit Bull bred to fight. So you are saying that the Greyhound and the Collie have to conform to the stereotypes of the breed, but Pit Bulls don't?


Let me be a little bit more clear. As I said earlier, dogs are bred by characteristics, and IF BRED PROPERLY will display those characteristic attributes. I never said that life was perfect and all dogs were bred properly. Pitbulls can be bred to fight, but that depends on their pedigree/bloodlines and history. BUT pitbulls today (in a modern setting) are not bred to fight (unless someone chose to breed them into fighters). They were at one time only bred for fighting a long time ago, but some people do breed the best out of pitbulls to try and relinquish the breed into not being so aggressive. 

It all depends on how the dog was bred and if it was bred properly.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Then, by all means, explain the BCs born out of champion stock that have no desire to work?


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## Moonstruck (Apr 22, 2011)

I personally believe that every pit bull has a WILL to fight another dog and to be able to have an aggressive streak because of poor breeding over-time. But do I believe that every pitbull will use that hidden ability? No. Just like not all border collies have the chance to go out and herd some sheep but you will see them try and steer you when you walk them.


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## Moonstruck (Apr 22, 2011)

smrobs said:


> Then, by all means, explain the BCs born out of champion stock that have no desire to work?


just because a dog doesn't have a desire to do as its breed was bred to do doesn't mean that it will do it. Every puppy is born fresh, it can only be trained to work efficiently. But they will herd each other because that is in their nature. They will unknowingly have the ability to herd and steer. Its just using that ability to perform a task that would need to be trained to a dog individually.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Try and steer you when you walk with them:?? Is that supposed to mean that they try to herd you? No, sorry, they don't.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Moonstruck said:


> just because a dog doesn't have a desire to do as its breed was bred to do doesn't mean that it will do it.


Wow, you have got me really confused now. What, exactly, are you trying to say here?


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## Moonstruck (Apr 22, 2011)

Okay, smrobs, I've owned a shepherd okay. And as I would walk and slighty move to one side she would come about the other side to keep me in a straight line. 

I really don't care to convince you that I am right, believe what you really want to but dogs are my specialty. And thats fine if you refuse my logic.


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## Moonstruck (Apr 22, 2011)

smrobs said:


> Wow, you have got me really confused now. What, exactly, are you trying to say here?


A border collie that is bred through champion lines that does not have a desire to work, is not entitled to it if the owner does not teach them how to use their ability efficiently. Do you really think that a dog HAS a choice not to do something it is taught to do? Think about that next time you tell your dog to sit, and he obeys you.


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## Moonstruck (Apr 22, 2011)

And if your dog doesn't obey you he is either not focused at the momeny or because you're just not very good at training your dog or BY BREED he is stubborn and isn't going to listen to you the first couple of times. Bottom line, a dog is trained to obey no matter how many times you ask him to sit, eventually, he will sit.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

You're trying to compare apples to bananas here. "Sit" is something that every single dog in every single breed can learn to do well with the proper training. If a herding dog has no desire to herd, it can't be _taught_ into him effectively because you would be forcing him to do something he had no interest in. We're not talking basic obedience training here. If training a dog to herd was just basic obedience training, then why don't we see herding Chihuahuas or herding St. Bernards or herding Poodles? 

Even though they are bred for it, that doesn't mean that's where their inclination lies and something like that can't be forced if they don't want to do it. It has nothing to do with lack of training or improper training, some dogs just never 'latch on' to their instincts and without herding instincts, you don't have a herding dog.


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## Moonstruck (Apr 22, 2011)

smrobs said:


> You're trying to compare apples to bananas here. "Sit" is something that every single dog in every single breed can learn to do well with the proper training. If a herding dog has no desire to herd, it can't be _taught_ into him effectively because you would be forcing him to do something he had no interest in. We're not talking basic obedience training here. If training a dog to herd was just basic obedience training, then why don't we see herding Chihuahuas or herding St. Bernards or herding Poodles?
> 
> Even though they are bred for it, that doesn't mean that's where their inclination lies and something like that can't be forced if they don't want to do it. It has nothing to do with lack of training or improper training, some dogs just never 'latch on' to their instincts and without herding instincts, you don't have a herding dog.


True. But a chihuahua isn't going to have that strange itch to herd like a border collie would. Border collies have a need and a yearn to work. No matter what it is. They are one of those multi-purpose dogs because they are so bright. Any dog can be trained for search and rescue just like any dog can be trained to lead the blind, but that doesn't mean that some are better at it than others and that all dogs would past the test with flying colors.. All I'm saying is, all breeds have different characteristics, and greyhounds, being a sighthound, is going to run after a rodent if it catches his eye. Just like gun dogs would chase or hone down on a bird.


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## Scoope (Oct 19, 2010)

.... my aunts collie has a yearn to eat dirty nappies and roll in road kill ......


as for chihuahuas not hearding - a friends rounds up our geese and puts them away in the coop much to their disgust. No instruction needed.


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## Moonstruck (Apr 22, 2011)

Scoope said:


> .... my aunts collie has a yearn to eat dirty nappies and roll in road kill ......
> 
> 
> as for chihuahuas not hearding - a friends rounds up our geese and puts them away in the coop much to their disgust. No instruction needed.


 thats actually the first i've heard of that lol


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## Moonstruck (Apr 22, 2011)

Wow I guess chihuahuas CAN be taught to herd


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Moonstruck said:


> True. But a chihuahua isn't going to have that strange itch to herd like a border collie would. Border collies have a need and a yearn to work. No matter what it is.


This is just the exact point I'm trying to make. No, they don't _all_ have that itch. No, they don't _all_ have a need and a yearn to work. Granted, the vast majority of them do, but there are always exceptions to every rule and to say that _all_ of some breed is some particular way is pointless because it simply isn't true.

The Chi in that video isn't herding, it's chasing. There is a huge difference.


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## Moonstruck (Apr 22, 2011)

And poodles herd too!


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## Whisper22 (Jan 2, 2011)

Moonstruck said:


> When dogs are bred they are bred by CHARACTERISTICS. Meaning that any purebred breed of dog is going to have the same attributes as the same breed living down the street. This doesn't mean they will have the same personality. But dogs have a standard to live by and if bred properly, will have the same charactaristic attributes as each other.





Moonstruck said:


> just because a dog doesn't have a desire to do as its breed was bred to do doesn't mean that it will do it. Every puppy is born fresh, it can only be trained to work efficiently. But they will herd each other because that is in their nature. *They will unknowingly have the ability to herd and steer*. Its just using that ability to perform a task that would need to be trained to a dog individually.





Moonstruck said:


> *A border collie that is bred through champion lines that does not have a desire to work, is not entitled to it if the owner does not teach them how to use their ability efficiently*. Do you really think that a dog HAS a choice not to do something it is taught to do? Think about that next time you tell your dog to sit, and he obeys you.


I don't know if you mean to do it but it seems as though you are contradicting yourself. 

My mom owns a weimeraner, a dog I believe was bred to hunt birds. THAT dog wouldn't know that if a bird sat on her head. They never trained her to hunt birs and there is no natural instict in her to do so.

And yes I do think a dog has a choice to disobey something it was taught. My dog does it all the time. Some dogs care to please their owner more than others not because of her training.




Moonstruck said:


> And if your dog doesn't obey you he is either not focused at the momeny or because you're just not very good at training your dog or BY BREED he is stubborn and isn't going to listen to you the first couple of times. Bottom line, a dog is trained to obey no matter how many times you ask him to sit, eventually, he will sit.


I don't understand how you can say they don't have a choice but then make excuses for those that don't.


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## Moonstruck (Apr 22, 2011)

smrobs said:


> This is just the exact point I'm trying to make. No, they don't _all_ have that itch. No, they don't _all_ have a need and a yearn to work. Granted, the vast majority of them do, but there are always exceptions to every rule and to say that _all_ of some breed is some particular way is pointless because it simply isn't true.
> 
> The Chi in that video isn't herding, it's chasing. There is a huge difference.


That chi IS herding, he is at an official herding trail. Which is the fancy term for herding training. And I never said that all of one breed is going to have the same job but that they all have shared CHARACTERISTICS that make them the way that they are! If a BC doesn't want to work thats his business but if an owner had wished that their dog learn to herd its not impossible.


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## Moonstruck (Apr 22, 2011)

I feel like I'm basically saying the same thing over and over again and it isn't making sense anymore. I ALREADY SAID THAT IT DEPENDS ON HOW A DOG IS BRED. But nobody is understanding, so I choose to forfeit.


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## Moonstruck (Apr 22, 2011)

Not every dog is going to sit when you say it the first time because my point being that all dogs are different, all breeds have the same characteristics, and all of my efforts for explaining the two are not working.


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## Moonstruck (Apr 22, 2011)

> My mom owns a weimeraner, a dog I believe was bred to hunt birds. THAT dog wouldn't know that if a bird sat on her head. They never trained her to hunt birs and there is no natural instict in her to do so.


Her sire and ***** probably were not bred under a breeder who initialized this instinct.

Dogs when they are puppies seem to have an instinct tab - when a breeder wants that instinct to be active, they break the seal. If not, then that puppy will be raised into a family to be a pet. Nothing more, nothing less.


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## Whisper22 (Jan 2, 2011)

Moonstruck said:


> Her sire and ***** probably were not bred under a breeder who initialized this instinct.
> 
> Dogs when they are puppies seem to have an instinct tab - when a breeder wants that instinct to be active, they break the seal. If not, then that puppy will be raised into a family to be a pet. Nothing more, nothing less.
> 
> I feel like I'm basically saying the same thing over and over again and it isn't making sense anymore. I ALREADY SAID THAT IT DEPENDS ON HOW A DOG IS BRED. But nobody is understanding, so I choose to forfeit.


Honestly I think everyone has gone full circle and at some point said what the other person was saying in the first place. :lol:
I am actually kind of confused and don't really have anything to add.


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## Moonstruck (Apr 22, 2011)

same here X_x i'm exhausted lol


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Well, I commend you for scouring the internet to find a video of a poodle that is attempting to herd. Yes, a dog can be taught to go where you point and move when you say but that is not herding because they have no instinctual knowledge of where to be or how to move and thus, will never be a herding dog nor will they ever be very effective at _playing_ a herding dog either. That is still basic obedience training. It will be a well trained dog, but not a herding dog. A BC that has latched on will instinctively want to gather the herd and bring it to you, even with virtually no training at all. Their instincts will tell them to stay on the opposite side of the herd from you and drive them to you. Even with a well trained poodle, you still have to voice every command for every step that you want them to take. That's not herding.

This is herding.




 

And for the record, no that Chi isn't herding, it's chasing. There is no commands being voiced other than "Get'em" and "Good Girl". It is running around in circles around the sheep, not directing them in any way, that is not herding. If that was a true sheep trial, I would love to hear the placing that they got.

If people want to play like they can make a herding dog out of a dog that isn't interested in the actual herding part of it, then power to them.


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

Impressive little puppy! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I thought so too HITS.


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

That pup sure looks like he was having a good time!


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

Oh and must say this has been an interesting thread to read...er..most of! 8( maura I loved your first post took the words right out of my mouth...i have two dogs who were both crate trained. Now that they're housebroken they just have their own bedroom with beds and all  and their crates...doors left open. Guess where they like to sleep...in their crates! it's like a den to dogs which feels natural to them. 

Crates are cruel? right...that's why they're such a common part of training over here  and why given free choice my dogs choose them! They also sleep under tables and chairs...they like den-like places. It's in a dog's nature to...where do you think they sleep in the wild? 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

Smrobs, I love you. That is all. :rofl:


I find myself with absolutely no need to respond to the ridiculousness being spewed forth, because you said it already. :lol:


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

HA! I didn't even try to read all the way through this..First thought when I saw that crate training was cruel..NOT..My Nana has a jack russel and she loves her crate, she knows thats where she stays at night and you can tell her to "go to bed" and she trots over to it..Now, on the other hand..I have a pit/bulldog mix..HA..put her fat butt in a crate and leave..when you get back you will find it in pieces and her sitting on the pile of rubble laughing at you..She is the most distructive dog I've ever met..I cannot for the life of me train it out of her either..I mean I have torn her fat butt up and nothing gets through to this dog... My Dad HATES Chloe because if you leave something out (she stays outside during the day) it is torn into a hundred little pieces..I've tried all chew toys..nothing works..BUT, I love that crazy dog..I couldn't give her up for the world..I found her a few years ago. Someone has dumped her in motor oil and left her at my stepmom's work..She was really young, pregnant, and abused..We took her to the vet and had her fixed and treated for all of the oil and different things with her..Now, Chloe is the best dog. She is really protective of me and "her" cat..the only thing I can't get over is her tearing everything up..

As I type she is laying in the floor demolishing a tennis ball on a rope thing..


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Moonstruck said:


> Crate training is the best thing invented and creates boundaries between and owner and their dog and is a useful tool in housetraining as well as PUNISHMENT. Yes folks, punishment.


I have never, nor would I ever, use a crate as a punishment.


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## Scoope (Oct 19, 2010)

how can a crate be both a safe place as well as a punishment?? surely that is confusing for the animal??


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Scoope said:


> how can a crate be both a safe place as well as a punishment?? surely that is confusing for the animal??



Completely agree. I want my dog to want to be in his crate. 

I don't know what behaviors a well trained dog would have that needs punishment. Heck the only thing my 8 month old pup does wrong is to sometimes get excited and chase the cats - but that's getting better as he ages. And he is only 8 months old.


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## Deerly (Apr 18, 2010)

Levade said:


> Like I said, sorry if I offended anyone, but that is my opinion, based on sound medical evidence.


God, I need to stop coming on these forums the arrogance is just insane. Just because YOU are fortunate enough to believe that the entire world is comprised of safe, open land for every horse in every part of the world doesn't mean that's not true.

It's offensive to continually imply that people are selfish or cruel because they don't do things the way you do it. 

I guess every vet in California is a total selfish quack otherwise they would surely scold owners at barns and boarding facilities.

There are some pastures close to where I live but they are uneven, awful dirt and rocks terrain and just not the sort of environment I'd put my horses in. I don't judge anyone who does (and generally they do because it's cheaper) because I'm not an anthropomorphizing egomaniac who thinks I know more than everyone else.

Not all stalls are created equal and not all horses receive the same amount of exercise and attention and turnout and it's annoying that you feel you have the right to sit there and paint other people in other countries with a big wide brush.

You cannot compare a large, roomy stall to a 10x10 cage and you can't make assumptions that just because you've seen a person or people ignoring and essentially abandoning their horse in a stall that that is just how all boarding situations work.

My horses are spoiled rotten. They see the chiropractor, and lots of love and attention. My stabled horse gets out and stretches his legs every single day in turn out and riding. He's not abused, he has no stall vices and he's got a huge stall with horsey friends all around him and plenty of interesting hustle and bustle to watch and enjoy. 

He's the easiest horse to catch on the planet and a total pocket pony. He's in a stable because the amenities (arenas, lighting, storage areas, turn outs and round pens) and because there is no quality pasture boarding that I have found that isn't at least 2 hours away and then I'd never see him and he'd never get to be ridden or trained and have the fun life he has!

I like that my horse is in a stall where his water and food intake can be monitored to catch any health issues immediately. Same goes for being able to monitor his digestion and poop. 

I know this is the internet and there is really no changing anyone's mind on a forum but I had to rant a little bit because all this holier than thou attitude is making me kind of upset. :-x

Comparing keeping and spoiling a horse in a stable to not being able to afford to feed them or basic vet care is just really offensive and narrow minded and ignorant. Sorry.

Man, I don't think I have EVER posted a drama drama message on here but I just had to toss in my 2 cents. Sorry if I offended anyone


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

High five Deerly! 

In fact boarding a horse in an area with little turn out often costs much more than for us in the boonies. It is certainly not a matter of what people can afford.


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## Whisper22 (Jan 2, 2011)

AlexS said:


> I have never, nor would I ever, use a crate as a punishment.


A crate would be used as punishment just like your room was used as punishment when you were a child. It sucked to be in there when you were in trouble but it was still YOUR space when you weren't. A dog, even a puppy, knows when he is being punished. He may not know why, and that is your responsibilty to make sure he does, but he knows when you are not happy with him. I don't use a crate but when my dog has an accident in the house I rub her nose in it and throw her outside. Being outside will never be a negative place for her but she will dwell on the fact that I am not pleased with her, at least for a little while.

Not everyone will agree with this method, but I have seen it used effectively and the dog with still use the crate as HIS space in the future.


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## Can He Star (Mar 9, 2011)

i agree with you levade. your point of view is simple and in my eyes completely reasonable!!! my horses are turned out unless it is show night or have a injury. my pony has has had a injury. but even then she had a 5 metre by 5 metre yard to walk in whle she wasnt alowed to gallop. telll your friend whatever you like. i am just giving you my piont of view


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## PintoTess (Aug 18, 2010)

I agree with levade as well. Horses DO need turnout to stimulate their brain, muscles ect. To just be a HORSE. I would give for a stable to put Tess in of a night. But by no means, 24/7. Injury is another story. Even if the horse has to be stabled 24/7, the owner at least takes them for a walk in hand. Or a small yard (as Can He Star had) is good as well.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Tess, no one yet has disagreed with the statement that horses need turnout. 

The OP started out with some much stronger statements; including that people who didn't have a least 5 acres of turnout shouldn't have horses and that turning out less the 24/7 except for medical reasons was cruel. I think over the course of the thread that position has been softened and modified, but most of the objections and arguments were to those original blanket statements.


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## PintoTess (Aug 18, 2010)

Yeah I know, I was just stating what I thought. Sorry If I will start an argument, I am stupid like that :/


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

No worries, Tess, you're not starting an argument, that was many pages back. 

The problem with long, contentious threads like this is frequently people respond the the last poster, not the original poster, and the original point of debate gets lost. I just wanted to be clear that no one's ever stated that turnout is not beneficial, or that all horses need turnout. It's the more extreme views that got the debate going.

And for the record, the OP came back and softened/modified her original views somewhat; saying that her OP was made when she was feeling particularly passionate about a bad situation.


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## PintoTess (Aug 18, 2010)

Phew, I didn't reply to the present posts, I didn't even read them D: !! lol


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Moonstruck said:


> For the record always, greyhound do not need a lot of room to roam. Jsut because they are used as race dogs for entertainment, does not require a greyhound to lead a highly active lifestyle. greyhound are lazy dogs that just want to sleep all day and love on you. Greyhound are not hyper, like border collie and springer spaniels, because those two breeds are designed to WORK.


Moonstruck, you must have been so busy madly posting as many consecutive posts as you possibly can that you totally missed the point of the post you were quoting.

Let me give you the cliff notes version:
I was being told that if I was a responsible person and I had picked the right breed, like a greyhound, for my situation (working full time) I would not have to have a dog with behavior issues.
Greyhound is the example that the person bashing me was giving as the type of dog I should have gotten.
I was laughing at them because the dog I have the biggest issues with IS a greyhound.

Your stereotype might be true for many greyhounds, but it is, just what smrobs said it was, a stereotype.

Obviously some greyhounds do not read the manual that says they are quiet, couch potato, and do not need lots of exercise.



Moonstruck said:


> A border collie that is bred through champion lines that does not have a desire to work, is not entitled to it if the owner does not teach them how to use their ability efficiently. Do you really think that a dog HAS a choice not to do something it is taught to do? Think about that next time you tell your dog to sit, and he obeys you.


I suppose we should then force every horse that is bred to do something specific into that job, even if that job is not what they are mentally set up to do. Heck, they were bred to run barrels, so they have to run barrels, period.




Indyhorse said:


> Smrobs, I love you. That is all. :rofl:


I second this thought!


DrumRunner, have you tried toys that will keep your dog's brain busy? It might take you a while to find a set up that works, but that mental stimulation might go a long way to help with the destruction. Even something so simple as making a kong REALLY hard to un-stuff will keep a determined dog thinking/working for quite some time. (Obviously this will not work for a dog that gets frustrated/bored easily.)



Scoope said:


> how can a crate be both a safe place as well as a punishment?? surely that is confusing for the animal??


Whisper already touched on this but, the long and short of it, the same way your bedroom was a safe place and a punishment place when you were a kid.

You never put the dog into the crate in anger (in other words, you do not toss them in there). But there is nothing wrong with a dog time out.


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## Levade (Apr 13, 2011)

maura said:


> The OP started out with some much stronger statements; including that people who didn't have a least 5 acres of turnout shouldn't have horses and that turning out less the 24/7 except for medical reasons was cruel. I think over the course of the thread that position has been softened and modified, but most of the objections and arguments were to those original blanket statements.


Not ONCE did I say any of those things. NOT ONCE.

I said that 24/7 turnout was IDEAL. I said that turnout and interaction with other horses was necessary, even on a dirt lot, even for only a short while every day. That was what was stated IN MY ORIGINAL POST.

You find where I said "people who didn't have a least 5 acres of turnout shouldn't have horse." Go on, look! 

I said that I felt that keeping a horse stabled 24/7/365 days a year (apart from riding) was cruel, and I stand by that. I also said that if you had NO turnout (as in NOTHING, I'm not asking for rolling pastures, even an arena would do) and still had a horse, you didn't have the animal's best interest at heart. I said that was selfish, and it is, people seem to feel entitled to have a horse, even if they can't provide adequate care for it, which I am not comfortable with. I feel that having NO turnout, is like not being able to afford the farrier. If I couldn't afford the farrier, I wouldn't have horses, if I didn't own or rent turnout, I wouldn't have horses.

Lord, no wonder people got so angry if they didn't even read through my original post :-|


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## dudey (Dec 16, 2010)

mls said:


> You would call someone stupid because she has issues with her horse? That is terrible. She asked why - she opened the door. Talk to her HELP her.
> 
> It's not cruel - even though it is not ideal - it is not cruel.
> 
> ...


THANK YOU!! someone who is on the same wave length my horse cant go out due to problems with his feet does this mean i dont love my horse i am keeping him alive by keeping him in his stable none of my horses go out they may go out for a few hours every couple of weeks and they are healthy horses exercised properly and have an amazing life help your friend not judge her and be arrangont.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Oh cool, big print. I like big print.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Well, I just caught up.. and have a couple of things to add. 

First of all, no one has said turn out is bad and the OP understands that. I think she (as many people do) has lost sight of the fact that while we all love horses here, there are different ways to keep them that do work. She may not like them and has said she would not keep them that way and you know what? Good for her. 

I also agree, as I said in my first response, the stalling a horse is probably not so good for the horse health wise (tho many horses are stalled and live good lives). 

There was a time when it was common to have most horses in STANDING stalls (not loose boxes). The horses worked most of the day and were stalled at night. These horses may have done farm work or pulled a hack or a street car etc. They truly earned their oats. Most horses in developed countries these days are used for pleasure and do not do hard work for 5-8 hours most days of the week. The culture has changed. Horses are not viewed so much as tools and livestock these days but more as pets. There are many parts of the world where horses are still livestock and tools (a means to an ends for humans)BTW. 

As to dogs.. all I can say is MoonStruck does not have a lot of good dog knowledge. I train dogs... and I can tell you that if you use the Dog Whisperer as your basis for training (after the show displays a disclaimer at the beginning) you are off base. Using the crate as punishment is not the correct way to use a crate and the Dog Whisperer is for entertainment. Read the link I posted about nonlinear dogs (Nonlinear Dogs) and learn. A dog rolling over for a belly rub enjoys the good scratch.. is not necessarily showing submission.. and a dog that shows submission is usually also showing fear.. and I could say much more, but this is not the topic. 

IOW's MoonStruck, you may be good with horses, but with dogs, based on your posts, not so much.


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## Levade (Apr 13, 2011)

Alwaysbehind said:


> Oh cool, big print. I like big print.


 
Well people seem incapable of reading the small print. I assume they have poor eyesight so am just helping them out


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

I believe people can read your rantings of 'it is my way or you are cruel and should not own a horse or dog' just fine.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Levade, 

Just to be clear, I am now posting as a moderator; previously I have been posting as an interested member with a different point of view. 

This conversation, up until now, has been relatively civil and allowed a pretty good exchange of views. Starting another thread to state things differently, and posting things in a larger font, effectively shouting, aren't going to change the fact that some people *respectfully* disagreed with you. And yes, I edited your posts to a normal size font. 

You made some extreme points early in this thread, including that dog crates were cruel and separation anxiety was "psychobabble" and that keeping a solitary horse was cruel. You had seemed to want to back down from some of the more extreme points, which was commendable. Everyone can understand posting in passion and reconsidering later. 

Your objection seems not to be that were not reading your original posts carefully; but that we read them too carefully and applied critical thinking to them. If you post opinions on an internet message board this is to be expected. 

Rudeness, personal attacks and shouting are not the appropriate responses and will not be tolerated.


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## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

AB - well I found it funny, anyways. About the greyhound comment. Even if it was missed by where it was aimed. lol

Being a dog breeder and trainer myself, I have some strong opinions about working breeds, since that is what I raise. Like Smrobs, my dogs are carefully trained and I intentionally select my breed pairings based on strengthening working factors within my breed, as well as health. I have a very, very careful selection process about who my puppies go to, and I am a bit anal about details in that as well. My dogs are trialed and titled and prove themselves.

Yet, not all of the herding breed puppies I raise go to herding homes. I wouldn't even say that it's IDEAL that all of them would. No matter the breeding or genetics involved, you will always have a range of strengths and weaknesses within a litter. I'd say about 50% of my puppies go to herding homes. Others go to homes where the same drives can be utilized in other ways - agility homes, frisbee homes, and therapy dog homes.

Is it a failure to my breed that not 100% of the dogs I raise go to farm homes? I don't see that as the case at all. The beauty of a working breed with a high drive comes with their versatility. The fact that they are capable of turning that instinct to work effectively for a wide range of activities is one of the best things about them. Dogs are not statistics, they are individuals, and to base a decision on getting a dog soley by breed factors is about as dumb as basing buying a horse soley on what their breed says they should be or what they should do. I have met many well bred Border Collies that were terrible herders but excellent family dogs. As AB mentioned, she has a greyhound that is anything BUT a couch potato. I have worked with a Maltese who was fantastic at herding chickens. I've also worked with plenty of timid, shy German Shepherds and with Australian Shepherds who have zero herding drive what-so-ever. A dog's breed can be a rough guideline, sure, but it's still only that, a guideline, and every dog is still an individual. 

So saying someone has chosen the wrong breed is an argument that holds no water, for me.



And Maura, I love you also.


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## Levade (Apr 13, 2011)

With respect, I was having words placed into my mouth, that I had NOT said or even implied, and then being attacked for that. Not much fun 

I also never said that dog crates were cruel?? I don't even know where this came from? What I did say was that someone in my area some woman got their dogs confiscated for keeping them in a crate (not a training crate, a transport crate, literally a wooden box, I didn't even know that people used crates as a training tool) for days on end. That is a fact. Not an opinion, I know nothing about crates and will be the first to admit that, I don't even have a dog, it was others after me (and that owl person) who stated that I had written this.

I felt and still feel that keeping a horse so that it has NO interaction with other horses is cruel. I don't wish to back down from this, in this country it goes against the animal welfare act, this is LAW, not opinion.

I have my opinions, I don't mind if others disagree (even though I was genuinely surprised at the things horse lovers find acceptable) what I am upset about is that I am having words placed in my mouth. If I didn't say it, why am I being yelled at for it? 

Yes, I was upset that this particular horse has no quality of life and was outwardly displaying it's unhappiness, so was harsher than I meant to be, and written word often comes across in a more extreme sense than it was meant.


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## Moonstruck (Apr 22, 2011)

Okay, so I'm coming back not to defend myself but to totally agree to disagree. The way I have trained has worked out for me personally. I was closed-minded as far as the whole dog breeds thing went. And the kick my dog video was inappropriate.

Please do not respond to this and start bashing me.

I sincerely appologize for my ranting and no I do not know everything and yes I am very inappropriate sometimes but I will do my best in the future to act accordingly in a controlled setting such as horseforum.com..

That being said, I think a lot of what I said was misinterpreted and a lot of what was read was misinterpreted - causing a big problem. And I take the blame.

If I didn't say or appologize for any additional details please accept this one to fill in any gaps.

I admit that I am wrong, cruel, stupid, and whatever words or adjectives you would like to put beside my name.

Thanks for being a great crowd and I just hope this resolves some things. If not, well, I think I did my best and at least tried.

Again, I am sorry..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Levade (Apr 13, 2011)

To clear things up, if you want to rant at me about any of the following, please read this first.

*I did NOT say you need to have five acres of pasture to keep a horse.*
Never once! I said that I felt SOME free turnout and interaction with other horses is necessary to an equine's wellbeing. Even if we're talking about a 20' by 40' sand school, which I'm such everyone who keeps horses has the equivalent to.

*I did NOT say that putting a dog in a crate is cruel.* I had never even heard of crate training, I recalled the recent incident of someone having their dogs confiscated for keeping them confined in a box for days at a time, and then the next poster said "so now you think crate training is cruel!". Nope. I think that in that incident - dogs being kept in wooden boxes with no exercise or social interaction - it was NOT someone attempting crate training, but was also not an acceptable way to keep dogs.

I also don't appreciate my views being labelled as 'extreme'. They really aren't. I'm not someone who thinks 'all the pretty ponies should run free', or someone who thinks horses should not be tamed or ridden, I am someone who has formed an educated opinion based on medical evidence and my own experiences.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

In response to Moonstruck's assertion that correctly bred dogs within a breed will ALL have the instinct that the breed is supposed to have. 

My family has been breed Labrador Retrievers for 30 years. Our dogs are very very well bred. They are all extremely versatile hunters (ducks, pheasants, geese, doves, pigeons, you name it they will hunt it AND retrieve it). The ONLY dogs we breed have extremely high drive and a very malleable tempermant. The sires we use are national feild trial champions and carry many titles proving that they also have the high retrieving and hunting drive. More than once we have sold litters for $1500 per pup and paid a $2000-$2500 stud fee. They are quality dogs.

Even with all of this we have pups that don't have a high (or sometimes any) retrieving drive. 

Case in point. My dog Mo. His parent's litters were sold for $1500 per pup, all of the pups went to hunting or competative homes. Mo has almost zero desire to retrieve. Seriously, he'll do it once in awhile when he feels like it, but otherwise he'd rather lay around, swim, and maybe try and catch some fish. My friend has a dachshund that will retrieve for hours. This has nothing to do with training, I know how to train a dog very very well. He doesn't have the desire. 

Mo has 2 full siblings and 2 half siblings within our family. I see these dogs almost daily. They are ALL extremely driven to retrieve and hunt. Mud has incredible drive and will hunt all day long, so will Beau, Brandy, and Jazz. All four of these dogs are hunted regularly and hard. Mud and Jazz are trained by my brother for hunt tests and feild trials and they do very well. More than one pro trainer is very impressed by these dogs. Mud was just bred (yay) and we already have major interest from several pros in obtaining one of her pups. 

That is just one example of many I could pull out showing you wellbred dogs that are bred to better the breed that do not have the necessary drive/ambition to do what they're bred to do. 

I don't agree with crating for punishment. The crate is a safe and happy place. When I punish a dog I make them walk away from me and I don't let them back in until the show me they "understand" what the bad thing was. In extreme cases I will "put them" in a different room for a short while. This isn't a punishment that lasts hours or even close to a half hour. It's worked very well for me no matter the breed I've worked with... or how old the dog is.


ETA - This was written before Moonstrucks recent post.


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## Moonstruck (Apr 22, 2011)

^_^;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

I have no idea what that means.... :lol: Sorry I suck at smilie type thingys... Too old!


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

MN Tigerstripes said:


> I have no idea what that means.... :lol: Sorry I suck at smilie type thingys... Too old!


Lots of us are. Thankfully they have a nice library of smilies here for us to use so people do not need to guess what we mean.


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## Moonstruck (Apr 22, 2011)

MN Tigerstripes said:


> I have no idea what that means.... :lol: Sorry I suck at smilie type thingys... Too old!


LOL the two arrows pointing up are smiley eyes and the line between them is a smile and the ( is a "sweat drop"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Moonstruck, 

Thank you for your post and apology. I appreciate and respect it.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Moonstruck said:


> LOL the two arrows pointing up are smiley eyes and the line between them is a smile and the ( is a "sweat drop"


I figured it out, except for the sweat drop. Kinda reminds me of Japanese anime. They use a lot of closed eye smiles like that, and for some reason are always sweating.


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## Moonstruck (Apr 22, 2011)

I think I'm going to stay away from debates in the future.. WAY too heated. And I agree with Levade on how text comes off more extreme than meant to be. You can't quite tell what the tone of the other person's text is insinuating. It becomes a problem, such as this one. But between me and the rest of the thread it was an issue between right and wrong, fact and myth, personal experiences and stereotyping.

Yup.. Gonna stay far away from these situations. I don't like to be the bad guy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Moonstruck (Apr 22, 2011)

maura said:


> Moonstruck,
> 
> Thank you for your post and apology. I appreciate and respect it.


You're welcome Maura. There comes a point in time where one knows that they are wrong. This was one of those times.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Moonstruck, just stay away from words like 'never' and 'always', because there are no hard and fast rules when it comes to the right way to keep and train animals.

It's when someone takes a hard headed stance and starts throwing out words like 'cruel', 'lazy', 'stupid', and the like when their opinions don't mesh with others is where a civil debate can turn ugly.

Teens and younger adults often see the world in terms of black and white and right or wrong, depending on their limited world view. Once they're a little older and have more experience, they'll realize that things tend to be many shades of grey, and there are multiple right answers.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Wonderful post, SR.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

Ahhhh.... That makes sense! 

Thank you for apologizing Moon. 

Great post SR!


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## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

wow I didn't read all the posts (don't have all day). Personally I would never board Hunter where he only had a stall. He has a HUGE stall with a HUGE paddock off of it. I wish they were out on the grass all year but they only put them out from April to October/November here but they usually are out 10 - 12 hours a day. They only put 2 horses at a time in a each pasture. But last year Hunters pasture pal chewed his long white mane off so now he gets his own pasture to himself.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Levade said:


> I felt and still feel that keeping a horse so that it has NO interaction with other horses is cruel. I don't wish to back down from this, in this country it goes against the animal welfare act, this is LAW, not opinion.


It has been a good while since I lived in England - so I just looked into this. And I wonder if it is the law, all I could find were recommendations that horses are kept with other horses. 

From the Defra, Code of practice for the welfare of horses, ponies, donkeys and their hybrids. 

http://www.defra.gov.uk/publications/files/pb13334-cop-horse-091204.pdf


Socialisation
4.1 Horses are herd animals and prefer to
live in social groups. Ideally they should
be socialised with members of their own
species but, where this is not possible, other
animals may be used to provide company.
They also enjoy human company so, if kept
on their own, they require more frequent
human contact and supervision. Donkeys
have particular socialisation needs and can
become ill if separated from a companion.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Levade said:


> *I did NOT say that putting a dog in a crate is cruel.*



Actually I think you did. 



Levade said:


> Well in this country you would get your dogs confiscated for keeping them in a crate :razz:


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

AB..I've tried allll kinds of toys..Chloe even has one of those mini Jolly balls which she loves (she can't kill it)..She gets bored with it after a while because she can't destroy it. I've gotten one of those thick cotton lead ropes and tied alot of knots in it and she got bored with that pretty quick. I've tried those really think rubber toys from Tractor Supply Co but she chews little pieces off of them and tries to eat it so I'm a little scared to give those to her again. I have the black rubber feed pans fron TSC too and she carries those around..What is a Kong?? I've never heard of it but I'll try anything with her..


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## Scoope (Oct 19, 2010)

A kong is a little ball that you stuff treats into and then they have to try and get them out. My brothers house wrecking / dry wall eating Labrador has one and it keeps him busy for hours. He puts peanut butter in it and the dog trys to lick it out, but then it gets all stuck to the roof of his mouth , so he is busy licking that out too. THey're sort of shaped like a snowman - and I think your supposed to put dry treats in them , but peanut butter works best for my brother.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

This is a Kong. You can put peanut butter in it, and then freeze it - that way it takes a long time for the dog to lick it out. 

Dog and Cat Toys - Durable, Tough Dog Toys | KONG Company


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

Ohhh...I'm going to have to get one of those..she will eat anything so I can stuff different things in it..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Levade (Apr 13, 2011)

AlexS said:


> Actually I think you did.


 
Again. You = putting words into my mouth.

I said that you would get your dog confiscated for keeping it in a crate. _Keeping it in a crate. _As the incident with the woman and the GSs demonstrated. Not using crate training. Or putting it in there if you have a kid round, or putting it in there to sleep. KEEPING IT IN THERE. As in for days at a time. The crate itself is not cruel, it is the manner in which it was used. You just quoted me, and then put your interpretation underneath, and your interpretation is so far off the mark it's almost like you picked the quote at random.

Gahh.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Levade, you are playing with words....
Keeping in a crate is really, to the average person, using a crate for training.

I realize you now do not want to say what you said before. But you can not deny you said it. 
It is not reasonable that you would think that everyone who uses a crate was like a puppy mill who never lets their dog out of the crate.




Drum, get the black kong, they are tougher. Then try various levels of shoving. I have one dog that if you pack hers too tight she simply gives up on it until we get home and then sits there begging us to empty it for her. Then we had one dog at the other extreme, we pack the thing tight and plug the hole with a hard treat that is majorly wedged in there and he would work at it for as long as it took to get those treats out of there.

There was (have not looked to see if there still are) ideas on what to stuff your kongs with on the web site. Peanut butter is great, but messy to clean out. You can use kibble and plug the small hole and put it in the freezer and give it frozen, etc.

There is another brand of similar toy with little fingers on the bottom to make emptying even more difficult. I will see if I can find a link for you.

ETA - Here it is.


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## Scoope (Oct 19, 2010)

They go through a dish washer well , if your using peanut butter - or so my brother tells me.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

I agree, dishwasher works marvelously!


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## Scoope (Oct 19, 2010)

I am not a dog person by any stretch of the imagination but when I am dog sitting - that labrador has that thing in his mouth every waking moment , and it only costs me the price of a large jar of peanut butter haha, and he dosent bug me or wreck anything. I agree the black one is best , he just ended up eating the red ones but the black one is very tough - they bounce really good as well , but when you bounce it , because of the same they dont go where the dog expects them to - they go off on crazy directions and the dog goes mental trying to catch it - dog thinks it is very exciting haha.

theres a big hole at one end and a little onat the other. so if im feeling kind I'll put alittle piece of jerky right at the top , so it is next to the small hole , and then stuff it full of peanut butter - and he goes nuts trying to get the jerky out because he can smell it and taste it through the small hole but cant get it until hes got all the peanut butter out hahaha.


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

Oh wow..thanks..I am definitely getting her one or two..and she will go nuts if it bounces everywhere, she loves that. I'm glad I had a slight rant about her now. I'm excited about how this is going to work out..I'll let you know..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Levade (Apr 13, 2011)

> I realize you now do not want to say what you said before. But you can not deny you said it.


Oh good lord. That is because I DIDN'T SAY what you are telling me I said. Ahh. I have not changed my stance nor my opinion throughout this post. Just because you interpreted it wrong doesn't mean that I am 'playing with words'.

And so say you use crate training. Would you walk up to someone and state "I keep my dog in a crate."?! No. Because that is not saying "I shut my dog in a crate for certain lengths of time as a training tool." but "I keep my dog in a crate." VERY different use of language, very different (and very blatant!) meanings.

I do NOT feel that crate training is cruel, although it is not a technique I would use myself. I did not SAY I felt crate training is cruel, even though I would be entitled to my opinion if I did. I have no strong views on crate training AT ALL. What I said was that a woman got her animals confiscated for KEEPING HER DOGS IN A CRATE, and that in this country, you get your dogs confiscated if you _keep them in a crate_. That is what happened, it is a fact, whether I feel it is wrong or not is irrelevant. Justify it any way you will, but that is all that I said. You have misread a post and dug yourself into a hole, and I am not going to apologise when the mistake was your own.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Levade said:


> Oh good lord. That is because I DIDN'T SAY what you are telling me I said. Ahh. I have not changed my stance nor my opinion throughout this post. Just because you interpreted it wrong doesn't mean that I am 'playing with words'.


Oh good Lord indeed. I quoted you above as saying you would get your dogs confiscated for using a crate in England, and that comment was in response to this, you even quoted it when you said it. 



Alwaysbehind said:


> Dog crates are evil now too?
> Oh my. Do not tell my dogs. They love their crates.




And you are completely ignoring the fact that you lied when you said there was a law against keeping horses alone in England. It is a suggestion not a law.


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## Levade (Apr 13, 2011)

Ahhhh. I said that keeping a dog in a crate would get your dog confiscated. Not using crate training. I don't care if you put your dog in a crate, just so long as you don't leave it in there for days.

I did not lie, that is the law, and yes, it says that you shouldn't keep horses alone. It doesn't say you will get in trouble for it, but it does say that it's not something you should do. So this isn't just me being ridiculous, written law recognises that horses need company.

I'm sorry, I'm leaving this now, it's like talking to children. All I want is for the horses in the world to be healthy and happy. Doesn't make me a bad person.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Levade said:


> I did not lie, that is the law, and yes, it says that you shouldn't keep horses alone. It doesn't say you will get in trouble for it, but it does say that it's not something you should do. So this isn't just me being ridiculous, written law recognises that horses need company.


There is a very big difference between what is the law and what is a suggestion. You exaggerated a suggestion in the law to support your own argument. A suggestion is just such, it is not legally binding. 



Levade said:


> I felt and still feel that keeping a horse so that it has NO interaction with other horses is cruel. I don't wish to back down from this, in this country it goes against the animal welfare act, this is LAW, not opinion.



As far as the dog crate issue with your response to AB, it was perfectly clear that AB uses crate training and not crating her dog 24/7. 


You seem to have a problem remembering the things that you have said. And when someone challenges you on it, you claim to have not said the things that you did.


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## Levade (Apr 13, 2011)

And you seem to have a problem with reading the things I have said, and then comprehending them


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Am done.


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

Yeah levade I took your crate comment the same way the others did...that using one at all to put your dog in will get the authorities after you. Which is not true. Not sure how else anyone could have taken it actually 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

ok am not done, as this is just annoying especially with your goodbye thread that you posted. 

I directly quoted you, you said those things, I did not change your words nor did I take them out of context, in fact I posted the quotes that you were responding to. You seem to be arguing with yourself, your own words.


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## Scoope (Oct 19, 2010)

I kind of understand what Levade is saying - in that here (as in the UK I believe) if you kept your dog in the crate much as you might keep a guinea pig in a hutch - which to avoid confusion is NOT illegal (indeed it is the accepted form of guineapig keeping I believe) , just an example of an animal that might be kept in a cage 24/7, the authorities would most likely take your dog away.

now , don't jump down my throat as I am not trying to provoke/ victimize anybody - just wanted to see if I understand maybe what Levade was trying to say initially (not commenting on anybodies further posts). 

the law here (as in the UK , from what the UK posters have stated) is that it is illegal to keep a dog in a cage/crate as their predominant living space ( by this I understand it to be a similar situation as a guinea pig - that the dog spends the majority of its time within the confines of the crate) NOTE the misdemeanor is the predominant confinement of the animal to the crate NOT the use of the crate as a training tool. Using the crate as a training tool is NOT illegal. Keeping the dog in the crate 24/7 IS illegal.

just my understanding of the laws regarding the confinement of dogs to crates.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

And that is exactly it Scoope. I moved to the US 10 years ago, I am 35, so I spent most of my life in England, all my family are there. I understand the ideas there which is why I explained crate training to you rather than jumping down your throat. I understand that ideas are different there. 

However if anyone here said that they kept there dog in a crate 24/7 we would all flip out - heck at 16 hours we would be flipping out, if it were a usual situation (none emergency).

American's are not dog abusers, heck we are on a horse forum, we are obviously people who care about animals. 

My dog is in his crate on average 8-10 hours per week, and this is spread out over the 5 work days. 
I would bet $100 that 99.99% of the people here, just crate their dogs while they are away from home, and if the dog chooses at night to sleep, but only if the dog wants to. 

I have the puppy that sleeps in between Brad and I, and Tala, my older dog likes to sleep behind my knees, unless there is some mystery crease in the bedding that I can't see and then she grunts on the floor til I fix the problem and she can get up on the bed.


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## Scoope (Oct 19, 2010)

Then maybe it should all be laid to rest there?? It seems (at least to me) that both sides of the argument have been sufficiently explained, indeed I myself have learnt alot and I can now see that there is a genuine use and purpose to a crate for a dog and perhaps they are indeed a good tool for dog keeping, which before this thread was started I did not think at all , indeed I was agast to hear that people kept dogs in this manner.

I have learnt , and I am a better person for it, as indeed I am sure others out there in the realms of cyberspace reading this thread have too.

Maybe, rather than trying be 'right' and get the last word in (not talking about anybody in particular here before anyone feels like they have trodden toes , talking about everyone as a whole) we should accept our various cultural differences for what they are - differences , neither right nor wrong, just a different form of problem solving.

As AlexS said , this is a horse forum - I don't doubt that no one here is an animal abuser, it is a place for discussion and learning - both of which have happened in this thread. Maybe it should be accepted that we are different people , with different ways of doing things and those ways are none more correct than another, and perhaps it could return to the original posters topic in question?.

if all else fails - maybe people should agree to disagree and remain friends , rather than going away from this thread feeling upset and attacked?? which ever side of the argument you may be on? 


- I am having a very peaceful 'at one with the world' kind of day - share the love and all that  smile everybody - I know I am  -


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Scoope you have been very reasonable throughout this conversation, you started off not agreeing but willing to listen - I take my hat off to you.


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## Scoope (Oct 19, 2010)

I am always willing to learn and if we closed our minds to new things , we'd still be walking on all fours

its good for the soul , or so I was always taught! so thankYOU for opening a new window for me



it is indeed a butterflys and rainbows kind of day - not even scrubbing the chicken coup could dampen my mood  *skips off armed with rubber gloves and a bucket of bleach and mite spray*


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Your skipping is freaking me out a little, but do what works for you


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## Scoope (Oct 19, 2010)

haha , well your most welcome to join me on my natural high haha


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Scoope I have a feeling this thread will be closed, so we may as well side track - where are you? I am from Cheshire.


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## Scoope (Oct 19, 2010)

Im in New Zealand , originally from Hill Head on the south coast though


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

ah hah Southampton area, I am Northern but lived in the south for 4 yrs, in Brighton.


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## Scoope (Oct 19, 2010)

heh - my partner is from Nottingham though  so a little bit northern (well from a little village on the outskirts ) I find my inlaws so hard to understand!! allways calling me 'Duck' haha


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Duck means love, (for our American readers) it is cute. My grandparents were in Derby, they said Duck too. 

We say Darlin or Love in Cheshire, when Brad (the American husband) realized I called everyone this, it meant nothing to him anymore - but but but...... silly American he is 'the' darlin'


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## Scoope (Oct 19, 2010)

lol, I did wonder why they all call me 'Duckie' - my son thinks it is hysterical , and goes around calling me 'chicken' after we have been talking to his grand and great-grand parents.

Local dialects are funny things


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

Scoope agreed with what you said...sounds like our cultural differences on crates are actually the same!  levade just didn't specify the 24/7 part in the original post which is what got this going. Of course over here it's the same...you can't leave a dog in a crate for days at a time or yes the ASPCA would be all over you! That's just cruel!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Moonstruck (Apr 22, 2011)

Now the "happy days" theme song is playing in my head 

Thank you scoope for supplying the peaceful setting <3


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

Lol!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Can He Star (Mar 9, 2011)

there is quite a bit of opnion in this thread dont you agree?


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Levade said:


> Would you walk up to someone and state "I keep my dog in a crate."?! No. Because that is not saying "I shut my dog in a crate for certain lengths of time as a training tool." but "I keep my dog in a crate." VERY different use of language, very different (and very blatant!) meanings.


Just to answer your question. I do not walk up to random people and talk about how I house my dogs.
If I was having a conversation with someone about the topic I for sure would simply say, "I keep her in a crate".
Yes, worded like that.




Hoofprints in the Sand said:


> Scoope agreed with what you said...sounds like our cultural differences on crates are actually the same!  levade just didn't specify the 24/7 part in the original post which is what got this going. Of course over here it's the same...you can't leave a dog in a crate for days at a time or yes the ASPCA would be all over you! That's just cruel!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I would be willing to believe that if Levade did not go off on how they should be allowed to live outside in the yard, etc. 
She might not have understood originally, but there is no way she did not realize what we were talking about after reading just a couple of posts.
By the time she insisted separation anxiety does not exist there was no way, if she had bothered to actually read people's posts, she did not realize we were not talking about a bunch of puppy mill dog housing situations.

PS - I find 'I am leaving now you people are too mean' threads to be no more than someone begging for attention. If you want to leave, Levade, just leave. No reason to post about it.

Adios!


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Well, it was me throwing fuel on the fire also! Not really intending to of course, I was just discussing the differences between countries.

Now, if I may consider this a discussion, rather than an argument, I will share with you the specifications for dog enclosures that I alluded to in my first post. Taken from the Department of Primary Industries Website (governs the keeping of animals in Australia). I am linking the Victorian version, which was effective my state. 

In appendix 4 you can find the minimum sizes permitted for enclosures, if you can't be bothered reading that far, here they are:

Large dog (70cm and above) - 15 square metres, 240cm X 180cm.
Medium dog (40cm - 70cm) - 10 square metres, 180cm X 180cm.
Small dog (40cm and below) - 7 square metres, 120cm X 180cm.

For our American viewers: 

Large dog - 50 square feet (7'8 X 5'10)
Medium dog - 32 square feet (5'10 X 5'10)
Small dog - 23 square feet (4' X 5'10)

Phew that took forever to calculate!
Link, as promised:

http://www.new.dpi.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0007/27637/Dog-code.pdf

Also goes into length of time in enclosures etc but I seriously doubt that anyone leaves their dog in the crate long enough for that to factor in this discussion! However I am yet to see a dog crate that is 7'8 tall.

Someone mentioned earlier that dogs like and feel more comfortable in confined spaces where they are touching three walls, I did not know that but am willing to listen! I know many people that keep their dogs in crates during the day and the dogs seem fine. I have come to accept that that is the way things are done, like I said previously, it's just different.

Don't want to turn this into any more of a heated debate so please treat this material as for discussion purposes only, I never ONCE told anyone that their view was not valid, or what they were doing was wrong. However I WAS told that MY assertions were not valid and I will politely stand my ground on this one. I knew you could be fined for breaches, as a good friend of mine found himself at the receiving end of an animal cruelty charge as a result of keeping his dog in a cage that was deemed too small during the day. But anecdotal evidence never holds much water so I figured I would have to find the real stuff :wink:


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

I have found that when a person mixes their opinion about the care of cats or dogs with the care of horses it is a recipe for an argument.

This is especially true when it comes to training.

I have had dozens and dozens of borders here over the last 20 years that are very uncomfortable picking their horse up out of a large field or herd of animals.

They do not feel comfortable having to be in the herd at all and look for ways to keep the horse in for *THEIR convenience.*

Just an observation.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Forgot to mention, Scoope: I want some of what you've got!


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

Sarah, this is the dimensions of the crates we use when crating: 36"x25"x27"H 

Mo is an 70-80 pound dog (depending on whether dad or I is feeding him :lol and he adores his crate. Generally he curls up in a little ball and goes to sleep, but he can lay on his side comfortably. 

Now our *kennels *are 15 ft high x 10 ft long x 4-6 ft wide with an attached box approximately 3 ft high x 3 ft long x 4-6 ft wide. 

A crate is supposed to represent security to a dog. It's a den-like structure. Dens are small and easy to "defend" if necessary. When our dogs are afraid they will not be out in their runs, but will go into the box part of it, generally in the corner. Dogs with anxiety issues will generally pick the smallest spot they can fit their bodies into in order to feel secure. Mo will literally drag me to the bathtub or a closet in order to feel "safe." 


MC- That's surprising to me because I've never been terribly worried about going into a herd and I don't know anyone that is. I do usually check with the owner to make sure there are no aggression issues first.

ETA - I agree with Sarah, Scoope! I could use some lately!


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

^^Yep, kennels are different. Enclosure is anything that is 'enclosed' i.e. whether the door is open or closed.

Like I said, the three walls touching/security notion is new to me, but one that I do understand!


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

Huh. 

So in Australia I would get in trouble for crating Mo for any length of time in the crates that we use?

I wonder because they say earlier that the kennel must all the dog to stand, lie down, and turn around comfortably. Then a couple of bullets down they say that enclosures or restricted areas must meet the guidelines in appendix 4 (that you posted). It seems like there is a difference between kennels and enclosures by that... Otherwise why bother to note that a kennel must me "this big" and an enclosure needs to be "this big". Later they again use the words enclosure and kennel to denote different things. 

Just thinking aloud..


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

MN Tigerstripes said:


> So in Australia I would get in trouble for crating Mo for any length of time in the crates that we use?


Correct, as my friend found out and was fined for, his dog was a marvellous fence jumper. If it is enclosed or restricted then there are specifications as to the size of the container that must be met.

Not to say either one is wrong, just a different perspective :wink:


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

That's interesting because honestly if I were to leave Mo out and about in a larger space when he is experiencing his storm anxiety he is literally a danger to himself and any people around. I've found the only way to relieve a degree of his fear is to let him go to the crate or enclosed space, shut the door, put a blanket over the kennel or shut off the lights.

I guess in my opinion I would be causing my dog greater emotional distress by NOT crating him. 

It is an interesting perspective. I wonder what they would say to my situation?


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

I read those requirements to apply to housing of a dog in an outside kennel/run/enclosure. In other words, the minimum care standard for a dog - outside with at least this much room.

Not that you can not shut your dog in the powder room.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

MN Tigerstripes said:


> I guess in my opinion I would be causing my dog greater emotional distress by NOT crating him.


And I understand that! Perhaps the dogs in Australia that would be better off if they were crated during the day, I honestly don't know and who's to say? 

Most of my mates have dog kennels that the dogs use for a safe zone but of course most kennels don't have a way of locking the dog in there.

Potato Potarto (does that translate in type?!)


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Alwaysbehind said:


> I read those requirements to apply to housing of a dog in an outside kennel/run/enclosure. In other words, the minimum care standard for a dog - outside with at least this much room.
> 
> Not that you can not shut your dog in the powder room.


The heading is 'Housing'.The outside reference you are talking about is a seperate bullet point. I am heading to work so will add more later.

Here is the guideline in question copied and pasted, bullet point 4:

Where dogs are housed in enclosures or restricted areas they
must meet the minimum size requirements as listed in Appendix​
4.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

I read the heading, I went to your link.

The code is addressing the minimum care. Minimum care does not mean allowing Fido to live on your bed, in the house.

Minimum care means people who get a dog and leave it outside. Those are the minimum requirements for a dog being left outside to deal with the elements.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Ah AB you are relegating me to nitpicking status and posting while at work. Nevertheless.

NOWHERE does it specify that the minimum standards apply specifically to dogs that are housed outside, you have extrapolated that yourself. If that was the case then why is there also a specification that states adequate ventilation must be provided *if dogs are housed in buildings*? Sorry but it is not specified if the enclosure is outside or inside as both are possibilities. I'll copy and paste that too:

Adequate ventilation must be provided if dogs are housed in​enclosed areas or buildings.
 
Lastly, I believe that I have maintained a respectful view of others opinions at all times during this debate and haven't questioned the validity of anyone's statements, I would ask the same in return.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

I have no idea what you are trying to imply with the last line..... Me stating how I read the code (since reading codes is something I do every day for work) is in no way implying I do not respect your opinion. Do not read into things.


From my experience, codes in general always dictate the minimum required. 


The housing their are taking about there is an outdoor kennel or building just for the dog. The ventilation in your house is covered by a different code.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Alwaysbehind said:


> The housing their are taking about there is an outdoor kennel or building just for the dog. The ventilation in your house is covered by a different code.


Right. An outside kennel inside a building.


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## Whisper22 (Jan 2, 2011)

If everyone agrees that a dog shouldn't be kept in a crate 24/7, even those who use crates, why is this debate still going on? 

Does everyone here agree that a dog shouldn't live in a crate 24/7? Not that it shouldn't be put in it every day but that it shouldn't live in it every SECOND of the day?

Does everyone agree that a crate serves a purpose in training and containing a dog when necessary? 

At this point, If I was actually involved in this debate I would have started banging my head against the wall a long time ago lol.

Where are the people that usually close these things?


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

I totally agree with that, Whisper.

Totally!

No doubt in my mind, I agree!


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Ha ha I agree too Whisper! I never disagreed with anything crate related, just wanted to share my experiences of how it is done elsewhere, sorry if everyone's heads are sore!


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

I agree with Whisper and the others, I have closed the thread.


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