# Just for fun -- What color do YOU think the foal will be??



## JennyVee (Feb 22, 2013)

Hey guys! This is my first post  I have a mare and stallion who we bred and their baby is due pretty much any day now! I've been looking a lot into horse colors and all that, but I haven't came up with much. So, I thought it would be fun to hear what you guys have to say! It's purely for kicks and giggles. Here are the parents!:
Blondie and Snazz
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r290/ccqcc/470240_326934224036238_625143818_o.jpg

Blondie is a beautiful Palomino mare. She's about 14.1-14.2 hands high and she has two white rear socks and a white blaze.
Snazz is a black and white 99.9% homozygous stallion. He is VERY docile, everyone thinks he is a gelding! He is 14.2 hands high and has four white legs with black dots.

I have seen several of Snazz's foals (before I bought him) and they are all paints. Most I've seen are like their mother, but painted up like him. Let me hear your opinions on the color of the foal! I'll keep in touch until the foal is here and we'll see who got it right!


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Did you test either for frame/OLWs before breeding? 

As for colors..

Black, smokey black, brown, bay, brownskin, buckskin, chestnut/sorrel, palomino. Pattern expression is unpredictable.


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## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

Agree with NDAppy.

And...a horse can't be 99.9% homozygous...it's either homozygous or it isn't. Simple as that.


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## JennyVee (Feb 22, 2013)

NdAppy said:


> Did you test either for frame/OLWs before breeding?
> 
> As for colors..
> 
> Black, smokey black, brown, bay, brownskin, buckskin, chestnut/sorrel, palomino. Pattern expression is unpredictable.



No, I didn't  This guy has lived just a few minutes down the road from me for about 10 years. I've seen maaany of his foals, they've all been beautiful with lots of white on them. I have a paper on hand that basically says he "meets the blood typing criteria for being homozygous in tobiano coloration." Previous owner told me his foals are usually the mother's color with patterns similar to his and he guesses it'll be a buckskin or palomino paint. I honestly don't care about the color, but it's interesting to hear what people come up with


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## JennyVee (Feb 22, 2013)

Reno Bay said:


> Agree with NDAppy.
> 
> And...a horse can't be 99.9% homozygous...it's either homozygous or it isn't. Simple as that.




Hahahah silly me, always typing too fast... sorry about that  I MEANT to say he tested 99.9% positive for the homozygous gene, so he's definitely homozygous!


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## HorseLovinLady (Jul 18, 2011)

Nice looking pair, i'm quite partial to palominos. Here's what the color calculator predicted for the foal's color: 
8.33% - ​*Smoky Black Tovero *8.33% - ​*Smoky Black Tobiano *8.33% - ​*Buckskin Tovero *8.33% - ​*Buckskin Tobiano *8.33% - ​*Black Tovero *8.33% - ​*Black Tobiano *8.33% - ​*Bay Tovero *8.33% - ​*Bay Tobiano *8.33% - ​*Palomino Tovero *8.33% - ​*Palomino Tobiano *8.33% - ​*Chestnut Tovero *8.33% - ​*Chestnut Tobiano *


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## Tryst (Feb 8, 2012)

OLWS, also known as frame overo,is a pinto pattern that if both parents have it leads to a 25% chance that the foal will die. Even horses that are not clearly frame (OLWS) can carry the gene and pass it on to a foal. ALL horses in breeds that can carry it (AQHA, APHA, appy, TB, and more and crosses of those breeds) should be tested before they are bred.

I will keep my fingers crossed for you that you have a healthy, happy baby.

For your education please read: Lethal white syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## JennyVee (Feb 22, 2013)

HorseLovinLady said:


> Nice looking pair, i'm quite partial to palominos.


Thank you, I agree!  I've always had a strong love for palominos, ever since I was a little girl!


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## Kayella (Feb 11, 2012)

And I would say just from that one picture it looks as if the stud does have frame. Do you have better pictures of the two of them where we can see all their markings?

The sire looks a lot like my boy's sire. Henny's sire was a black tobiano and his dam was a perlino. I ended up with the cutest brownskin paint baby ever, but I think I'm a little partial.  This is my goof last weekend just to give you a reference what I got out of a black tobiano and a double dilute mare.


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## JennyVee (Feb 22, 2013)

Tryst said:


> OLWS, also known as frame overo,is a pinto pattern that if both parents have it leads to a 25% chance that the foal will die. Even horses that are not clearly frame (OLWS) can carry the gene and pass it on to a foal. ALL horses in breeds that can carry it (AQHA, APHA, appy, TB, and more and crosses of those breeds) should be tested before they are bred.
> 
> I will keep my fingers crossed for you that you have a healthy, happy baby.
> 
> For your education please read: Lethal white syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Thank you very much! I'll definitely read more about it. I've heard about it a few times, but I don't know everything about it. I'm fairly sure the stallion doesn't have it, I've seen dozens of his babies and they've always been very healthy and strong and I was told only one of his foals died (I believe the mother aborted or she was born premature, but they said it was because of the mother; she has since had other foals by him that survived). He has been a public stud since he was old enough to breed and he is almost 11 now. He may have been tested by the previous owner, but the only paperwork I have regarding anything genetic is the confirmation of him being homozygous in tobiano coloration.


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## JennyVee (Feb 22, 2013)

Kayella said:


> And I would say just from that one picture it looks as if the stud does have frame. Do you have better pictures of the two of them where we can see all their markings?
> 
> The sire looks a lot like my boy's sire. Henny's sire was a black tobiano and his dam was a perlino. I ended up with the cutest brownskin paint baby ever, but I think I'm a little partial.  This is my goof last weekend just to give you a reference what I got out of a black tobiano and a double dilute mare.


Oh my, what a cutie!! I bet he's a trip, what a face  This may sound silly, but I actually had a dream that the foal was born and he looked similar to your little guy! I'd crack up if he/she really does 
I will post more pics in a sec! I have plenty!


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## Kayella (Feb 11, 2012)

Thanks, he's my baby.  

As far as his foals, maybe he's never been crossed with another frame carrier? Or if he has, maybe those foals were the lucky 75% that were not homozygous lethal. You can't take just him into account, you have to consider both sire and dam together. It's not just one copy of the gene being passed on, one copy of the gene HAS to be passed on from both parents to be lethal so both parents must be carriers.


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## JennyVee (Feb 22, 2013)

More pics!
Snazz
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r290/ccqcc/549653_320955174634143_833565392_n.jpg

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r290/ccqcc/856879_488000681262924_1025758_o.jpg


Blondie
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r290/ccqcc/428879_386899078039752_1876730331_n.jpg

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r290/ccqcc/60293_433135246749468_1352461613_n.jpg

Blondie is much much bigger now of course, I don't have any good recent pics of her though!


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## bhorselover (Aug 28, 2011)

both beautiful horses I vote for smokey black Tovero. I don't know if any one else noticed and I dont want to sound rude but in some of your pictures there bob wire for the fencing you dont want that around especially with a little colt or filly that will be running around.


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## Kayella (Feb 11, 2012)

Tovero is an outdated term that shouldn't be used anymore, even if the registries are. It's also barb wire, for future reference.

Do you see how the white is spreading across his body horizontally? That is usually a sign of frame. The white is literally framed by color on the body. Do you also see how your mare's white spreads out above her eyes? Frame also has a tendency to do that. I'm not saying they both have frame because neither of them could. But it LOOKS as if they may carry it, which can be cause for concern. Try and contact the stud owners to see if he's been tested. If he's been bred so extensively for almost a decade I would sure hope he has been tested for any genetic disorders.


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## bhorselover (Aug 28, 2011)

Kayella said:


> Tovero is an outdated term that shouldn't be used anymore, even if the registries are. It's also barb wire, for future reference.
> 
> Do you see how the white is spreading across his body horizontally? That is usually a sign of frame. The white is literally framed by color on the body. Do you also see how your mare's white spreads out above her eyes? Frame also has a tendency to do that. I'm not saying they both have frame because neither of them could. But it LOOKS as if they may carry it, which can be cause for concern. Try and contact the stud owners to see if he's been tested. If he's been bred so extensively for almost a decade I would sure hope he has been tested for any genetic disorders.



Wow Kayella I was just guessing on a color other people said TOVERO and im not in the breeding circuit and don't know the "new terms". Also I meant to put "barb wire" but I am typing on my phone and it auto spells out words sometimes so chill.


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## Kayella (Feb 11, 2012)

Sorry if you read any hostility in that post as there was none. :lol: You don't have to be in the breeding circuit, as I'm not either. You can gain a lot of knowledge just reading through the Color and genetics forum which is exactly how I learned what I know about color/genetics. It's really interesting and exciting to look at a horse and see its phenotypic expressions. You can't guess hetero/homozygousity on base colors or patterns, but you can see what they carry at least one gene of which I find neat. You'll also find that most of the color gurus are blunt about what is and what isn't. If you thought what I typed was harsh, you'd read a lot more hostility in what they post. It's a hot topic and some people are really set in their ways. When it comes to breeding, the phenotypic expressions of a horse can indicate if they carry a genetic disorder which everyone is so adament about education anyone on. It may come across as harsh sometimes, but some people need that as a wake up call.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

JennyVee said:


> Hahahah silly me, always typing too fast... sorry about that  I MEANT to say he tested 99.9% positive for the homozygous gene, so he's definitely homozygous!


A horse is either homozygous or it's not. There is no 99.9% about it. Homozygous means they have two copies of one gene. 

I am also guessing neither horses were tested for any other genetic diseases... What are the pedigrees of the two horses?


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## JennyVee (Feb 22, 2013)

bhorselover said:


> I don't know if any one else noticed and I dont want to sound rude but in some of your pictures there bob wire for the fencing you dont want that around especially with a little colt or filly that will be running around.


We are in the process of rebuilding our fence  We had a horse who tore right through it. No injuries whatsoever, but enough to damage the fence pretty badly. In the picture I posted of Snazz in front of the corral panels is where most of the damage is, that's why the wire looks distorted. The baby will not be in that pasture though


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## JennyVee (Feb 22, 2013)

NdAppy said:


> A horse is either homozygous or it's not. There is no 99.9% about it. Homozygous means they have two copies of one gene.
> 
> I am also guessing neither horses were tested for any other genetic diseases... What are the pedigrees of the two horses?


Just repeating what I was told. Snazz is registered with the APHA (waiting on the papers to get signed over to me by the owner before the previous owner, but I've seen the papers and looked over them and whatnot). Blondie's previous owner says she doesn't know if she has papers, if she does, she doesn't know who has them. I personally have not had them tested for genetic issues but I feel that I would have been notified if there was something wrong with either of them.


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## JennyVee (Feb 22, 2013)

Hey guys, I'm going to close this thread and start a foaling thread. I hope that all of you will come and keep track of Blondie! Thanks to everyone who replied!


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Just FYI, you can't close or delete threads once you have started them.


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## BlooBabe (Jul 7, 2012)

I think everyone's putting way too much emphasis into lws. Yes it could be a possibility but it's not extremely likely to happen. Tests should be done but it's too late for that as the mare is already carrying a fetus and instead of having JennyVee worry about a dead foal we should be encouraging and sending wishes for a healthy one.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Hope you have a nice healthy foal I'm sure it will be a cutie. Just to spare yourself any future heartbreak I'd spend the $25 to test for frame. Frame is known for hiding in tobiano's its worth it in my opinion to save yourself the sadness of losing a foal after 11 months of waiting. A lot of people like yourself even experienced breeders refuse to test or even acknowledge frame and when they have a lethal foal it's the mare's fault which is ridiculous. Don't assume anything when it comes to breeding thats a dangerous line of thinking. For all you know the previous owner lied to you about the lethals. My palomino mare didn't show frame outwardly but I tested her before breeding just so I would know for sure. I refuse to invest money and time into breeding a foal and it die later. Good luck I'll be watching that thread for a cute baby!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JennyVee (Feb 22, 2013)

NdAppy said:


> Just FYI, you can't close or delete threads once you have started them.


Oh I know, I'm a member of several other forums. When we want to "close" a thread, we just put *Closed* either in a post or in the title (depending on the forum--some will let you edit the title, some won't).


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## JennyVee (Feb 22, 2013)

BlooBabe said:


> .Tests should be done but it's too late for that as the mare is already carrying a fetus and instead of having JennyVee worry about a dead foal we should be encouraging and sending wishes for a healthy one.


Thank you very much! I'm definitely worried now, more so than I was before... Not that I shouldn't be, but it does make it really tough to be positive at times! I'm currently pregnant myself, so I'm double worried about babies! Lol  But I'm confident the foal will turn out just fine. If not, I know what to do if I ever decide to breed again (Which is probably a no, I don't breed on a regular basis or anything like that).


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

I hope that both your human baby and your baby foal turn out happy and healthy. 

This forum is not set up so that you can close a thread. You can, however, unsubscribe to it by going to "thread tools". I do that if people start to aggravate me.


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