# Bandit, Cowboy & bsms...muddling through together



## Woodhaven

Bsms enjoyed reading your post. I think you are doing fine with your horses, you enjoy being with them and that's what counts.
Reading the requirements for a Gentleman's horse was interesting. I think now with the mare I have that she comes as close to this as any horse I have ever had. She is such a good horse and fast becoming one of my best ever, most favourite ever horse that I have ever had, especially gratifying as she will be my last horse.


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## bsms

My wife actually volunteered to go for a short ride with me today. I can't remember the last time she rode. She sometimes finds Cowboy a little intimidating (even at 13 hands), but she had heard me singing his praises and said she would like to ride him.

I kept the ride down to 40 minutes since she hasn't ridden in ages. Cowboy waited patiently while she mounted. He didn't argue any on the way out. Cowboy led the way (as he usually does with Trooper), although I kept Trooper close behind and sometimes beside Cowboy. We just went along a dirt road near us.








​ 
About 15 minutes in, she made the comment that Cowboy was more fun than Trooper because Trooper carried you from A to B, but Cowboy seemed to enjoy being out and about - more eager, looking around, more involved. I agree, although Trooper & my youngest daughter get along well. You can see Cowboy looking around and thinking as you ride him. It may be the first time since we got Cowboy that he's been ridden two days in a row.

Nothing special, just 40 minutes of strolling along, looking around...but she said she had fun. And a little post ride grooming/grazing - something my horses seem to understand:








​


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## DraftyAiresMum

I love Cowboy. He's adorable and seems like a blast.


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## bsms

Now that I'm riding him, I'm beginning to appreciate what an excellent horse is hiding inside him. With some practice and conditioning, he could be an excellent trail horse. He's so low to the ground and yet so well balanced and careful of his footing that he gives confidence to his rider...you just KNOW he is not going to fall and not going to run away in a panic - probably the two things new riders (does this make me a new rider?) worry about the most. It is easy to relax and enjoy the ride...and a relaxed rider is a better rider. He's the sort of horse who has me - *Mr "I Love Stirrups"* - thinking about dropping the stirrups on a trail ride.

I'm thinking by this winter we might need to stuff some saddle bags with sandwiches, hay pellets and a bottle of Lambrusco and head out for a few hours...

:winetime:​


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## SueC

When I started to think that the previous name of my journal stopped representing fully what I was writing about, I asked a moderator if they would replace it with the more representative new title I'd come up with. So I went from "Life in a Trotting Stable", which was initially meant to be about the place in Lake Clifton where I grew up and the horses that are still there, to "Trotters, Arabians, Donkeys and Other People" - as I was starting to include my wider riding life and what was happening at the small farm my husband and I are developing here in Redmond, where we also run donkeys. That way I got to keep all my journal writing in the one place - like Wallaby, who changed the name of her journal after her Arabian mare died and she started over again with a new horse - which made me realise that title changes are possible!


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## bsms

I read "Discovering Natural Horsemanship: A Beginner's Odyssey" by Tom Moates yesterday. At about 160 pages, it didn't take long. Well before the halfway mark, I was shouting at the book, "Get on and RIDE!" Groundwork, groundwork, groundwork - just ride!"Essentially all respected clinicians agree not only on the fact that groundwork is the key to safely training a horse, but that some combination of these exercises should be done every time you ride. If it is your horse you are about to ride, groundwork tunes up the minds of both horse and rider and reestablishes the relationship you have...Honestly though, groundwork alone is so rewarding its enough to keep me working with horses every day."​He later mentions doing 20 minutes of work before riding. He was new to horses in his 30s and describing his learning process. I understand. I was new at 50. But if I had been his horse, I'd have killed him to make him stop nagging me! He discussed at length his problems with mounting a horse, but he also describes it as getting the horse's permission to mount. Hmmm...I'm not huge on dominance, but I'm also not huge on letting the horse decide if today is a good day to go for a ride.

I could imagine the conversation with Mia:"So, Mia...if it isn't too much bother, and if you feel like it, may I get on your back?"

"If you have to ask, the answer is no. I don't carry squishy wimps."​The only time in 7 years that Mia bucked was when my youngest daughter tried to use her for a lesson. My youngest was sitting on her like a passenger, and the instructor said that after 5 minutes Mia stopped, then very deliberately bucked hard until she came off. Then Mia just stood there: "_You are unworthy_."

I think much of NH comes down to this: "_all respected clinicians agree_". It is tough to hold a clinic where 4,000 fans go ride with you for 10-15 miles. It is tough to sell the idea that trust comes with time, and *is earned by being trust-worthy*, not by round pen gimmicks.

Horses need a leader. A leader doesn't stand around and say, "So...what are we doing today?"

On another thread, SueC wrote: " "_If you think about it, *the babysitter who continued to mentor from beside or in front of the young horse was taking exactly the same physical, and psychological, position as the mother* of a foal will._" 

That is an excellent one-sentence statement of what I would call real natural horsemanship - horse training that works with how horses naturally learn things. If I dismount, then lead Bandit past a scary thing with me between him and the scary thing, I'm not just teaching him the scary thing is not scary. I'm teaching him I care about his well being and will protect him - to the point of putting myself at risk.

A horse in a strange environment needs to learn what is scary and what is not. It would naturally learn that from its mother and the herd. But if you take a horse raised in the very open country of the Navajo reservation, and put him in a place where he often can't see very far and where there are garage door openers and chain saws and things he never learned about, how is he going to learn?

It seems to me he needs training, not domination. He needs to be introduced to the new world by someone "older and wiser" and taught the ropes. That ought to build a trust that isn't built in round pens. Shouldn't "Natural Horsemanship" involve some measure of "natural"?


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## bsms

This response I started on another thread is getting out of hand. The more I write the more I want to write, and it relies heavily on things I've been learning over the last 6-8 months, first with Mia and now with Bandit...and some with Trooper. That isn't fair to the OP of the other thread, so I'll move it here.

It is in response to this post by tinyliny:



tinyliny said:


> ...I do not think that ground work or round pen play is all bad, nor is it worthless for a horse who is already pretty good under saddle. a lot of the time, a horse is not as good under saddle as people think, and probably not as good in the round pen, either.
> 
> however, I will agree that for most people, working in the round pen is as much for them as it is for the horse.
> I can think of it more as a "let's see if . . " sort of place. I want to see if a horse will choose to come in, if he'll allow me to send him away, and how will he leave? on autopilot, or with an ear to me waiting for further instructions? how does he feel about being asked to move, then to move faster, then to slow? is he resentful and sticky, or is he goosing out fearfully?
> that reaction will practically perfectly duplicate the reaction you'll get on that horse when you are in the saddle. so, at the very least, round penning gives te human a test cycle to see what sort of horse is in front of them today...


http://www.horseforum.com/natural-horsemanship/cant-join-up-622649/page2/#post8027241

"_That reaction will practically perfectly duplicate the reaction you'll get on that horse when you are in the saddle_."

I disagree. Here is why:

There is an old phrase. "Horse sense" dates back at least as far as 1805 in England. The Cambridge dictionary says it refers to someone with "practical knowledge and good judgment about ordinary life". Writing in modern times, and I suspect with scant experience around horses, they assume it is connected to horses meaning country, and the crude supposed wisdom of county folks.

But after 7 years around horses, I think it means the sense that horses have - a surprisingly practical approach and one that, given time, can see thru a lot of artifice ("a clever trick or something intended to deceive"). It is pretty easy to fool a horse once or twice, but I think horses show, over time, good sense in assessing people and their intentions.

It is one of the reasons I believe you build trust by being trust-worthy. Gimmicks work in an arena for a week-end show, but don't hold up over the years.

And while Mia could not sidepass to save her soul in an arena, she never failed me when I had a reason to ask her to do it on a trail - maybe because the trail provided context and it thus made sense to her.

If I asked her to do 5 Figure-8s in the arena, she became frustrated and irritable. If we did them waiting for Trooper to catch up to us on a trail between cactus, she relaxed.

She also was extremely calm when next to me on the ground. That was not true in the saddle. It is true of Bandit too. If he is very afraid of something, I can dismount, put myself between him and the 'danger', and he understands that I'll be eaten first. When I'm on his back, he's not convinced - reasonably enough.

I was taught round pen work almost before I rode horses. I took lessons in how to do round pen work several YEARS before I took riding lessons. Mia was the last of my horses to work with a professional trainer, and by that time I was getting skeptical.

I understand doing round pen work with an unbroke horse or one who is worried about being near people. I've seen it done, done it, and seen good progress.

But I don't think it has zip to do with "respect", "leadership", or even enjoying a person's company. Since my horses live in a corral, I spend a lot of time in their company in a "round pen" - sort of. You know the best way to do join up with them (other than carrying a bucket of pellets with me)? Just stand near the corral fence and talk with my wife. If the two of us are talking, the horses frequently come over and pay close attention.

An experienced farrier told me he never tries to catch a horse in a corral. He just talks to the owners and lays out his stuff and ignores the horses. Then (most of the time) the horses come to him. That might not work in a pasture, but I've done it often enough in our corral.

But if I want to be seen as the leader from the saddle, then I need to establish my bona fides in the saddle. And it seems to me - and I'm struggling to figure this out - I ought to do it the way Mia did: take charge, but then also establish a track record of taking care of my horses. I need to show them I understand the difference between scary and scary-looking. I need to show them I won't put them in a spot where they will be hurt.

I think tinyliny's thread on Harry Whitney ( http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/harry-whitney-619937/ )brings up a good point by Mr Whitney. Horses crave clarity. They do not like uncertainty. So when I ride them, I need to be as clear as possible about what I'm after.

OR - I can let them work on things by themselves. It goes back to Tom Roberts idea of letting a horse go past scary things on a slack rein - giving them freedom, and support, and letting them work out at least part of it for themselves. But when doing that, I need to be emotionally clear - sending a message of "I know you can do it" and total confidence in my horse. If I don't overwhelm him by putting him in a situation he can't handle, then the horse will learn confidence in himself and trust in me - in himself, because he succeeds, and in me, because I knew it all along.

I think THIS is what creates willing teamwork between horse and rider.

If my horse senses something that worries him, I don't tell him to "Shut up and color!" I respect his concern. We look at it together...for 5 seconds. If it is nothing, I tip his head away and cue him forward. In essence, I say, "I see it, it isn't a problem, let's get on with work". But if the horse is too scared to get on with work, then I try to set him up for finding out I was right all along.

I limit some options very forcibly, if need be. We do not spin around. Any spinning WILL end up with us still facing the threat. We do NOT try to run away. I might ASK him to turn 180 and walk 75 feet, and then ask him to turn 180 back to the threat...but we will NOT run away. I limit those options.

But WE then face it together. If it is bad enough, I'll dismount, put myself in between, and then let the horse move closer one step at a time WITH me - and knowing I'll be eaten first. When the horse eventually realizes it is nothing bad, I mount up and we move on - in mutual agreement that it wasn't bad.

If I can do it without dismounting, all the better. On one of our last rides before Bandit hurt his knee, it took 5 minutes for us to go 100 yard in the face of a terrifying garbage can. But I wasn't worried, we did not turn around, we did not run away, I waited, he assessed the threat, I told him it was OK and he could do it...and we eventually got past it. And THEN we walked away. Together.

No one episode will win the battle. And since this is something I started trying with Mia, and am now still working on with bandit...well, it might fail. But it is based on my theory that horses have "horse sense", and that to get my horse's trust I must be trust-worthy.

And that won't happen in a round pen, because the round pen is too artificial and the horse knows it. The principles of "join up" work to convince a horse that something that seems scary is actually something you can relax around. But I don't see how any amount of round pen work will ever show the horse I (or humans generically) deserve his trust.

A horse would need to be an IDIOT to think that - and frankly, *it seems to me much of the horse training I read about ASSUMES the horse is an idiot*. I could be wrong on this, but I think building a willing partner requires me to assume my horse has a brain and he uses it with some degree of effectiveness!

BTW - I'm reading Tom Moates SECOND book now. He has, in his second book, concluded traditional round pen work involves dominance rather than trust, and he has a chapter saying "natural horsemanship" is a myth. But he also obviously still values round pen work for experienced horses. I haven't finished the book, but will post here when I do. It is MUCH better than his first book.


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## enh817

I think your point of view is intriguing and i agree that trust must be earned by proving that we are trust worthy. But I feel I can accomplish that any where, be it out on the trail or in the round pen, by always being fair and consistent. Being fair meaning -- never asking the horse to do something he is not ready for, making sure i properly prepare him for things in life so that he's not thrown into a situation where he has zero idea where to look for release, not putting the horse in a situation to get hurt, making sure the punishment fits the crime and when correction is needed, getting in them a right out quickly forgiving and moving on. Those are just some examples.

I use the roundpen for a number of things, even with older horses, mainly 'checking up'(my saddle has way better feel and timing than my hand will probably ever have). I like the fact that i can leave them alone to figure things out on their own and i believe it helps them step up and take responsibility for themselves instead of me having to be right there all the tine babysitting and constantly applying corrections. I'm a big believer in letting them work it out themselves whenever possible. 
I do like to work on lope to trot transitions a little when they're checked up, as it is one of the most (if not THE most) important piece of the puzzle when teaching sliding stops, spins and rate on a cow. In the round pen the horse can work out how to balance himself in the transition without me interferring on his back and i can see exactly what his feet are doing (i don't always trust my feel. I oftwn question myself)
Doug Williamson has a drill he does in the roundpen where he can teach a horse to go into a reiner spin with just a cluck from him and they will keep spinning until he says woah. I have yet to master this drill; according to Doug most people never do. I will also use the roundpen to take some of the fresh off one that has sat for a bit and is likely to get stupid with me if I just climb on. I don't try to tire them out, just looking to get their mind focused and on me.
Any work i do with them in the round pen (or anywhete really) I'm always careful not to over do it. I don't like standing in the round pen, I'm pretty sure it's only a mile from the sun. I'd much rather ride. So when i do need to do work in there,i always have a clear goal in mind and i try to look for the first place the horse shows signs of getting it and quit there. I want round pen sessions as short as possible.

I feel like thequote you posted from Tom Moates first book ahould read something more like:"Essentially all respected clinicians agree that we lack the experience and ability to really teach anyone the more nuanced and advanced skill involved in sucessfully work and training a horse from it's back. Otherwise we'd be successful upper level trainers. But we're just guys who know how to sell people crap, sooo excessive, mindless groundwork it is!!"
I'm sure someone's going to be butthurt about me making fun of their NH gods like that, but for real have you seen some of those guys try to actually ride a horse? Underwhelming is putting very nicely.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinyliny

Well, then I 'm just gonna say that what I've been doing in the round pen is for me. it makes me a better rider /handler of a hrose. especially recently, as I've learned a bit more about waiting a bit and making sure the hrose isn't searching for the answer before I jump in and "correct him". that bit of waiting for him, allowing him to think aobut and maybe struggle a bit has made a big differnence in the way the horse feels to me. in fact, today, I was really aware of how he changed his feeling in minute ways. there's just a way the skin goes from tight to lose , that tells you he's feeling better about things. 

and, approaching the encounter with the paradigm that you are going to try and help them feel better, that gets ME to be more aware of what I am asking. it improves my clarity such that I need to do less and less, and THAT ALONE makes the horse feel better.


in fact, as I think about it, my whole time with horses has been about being able to do more and more by doing less and less. horses really HATE it when we put in more pressure than necessary, and especially when they were ready to respond to a lot less. it's a real affront. that's not to say that I won't put on a fair amount of sudden pressure to a hrose that is sleepwalking. HE wouldn't have responded to less, so if it upsets him, that's his own fault.


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## bsms

"_Especially recently, as I've learned a bit more about waiting a bit and making sure the hrose isn't searching for the answer before I jump in and "correct him". That bit of waiting for him, allowing him to think aobut and maybe struggle a bit has made a big differnence in the way the horse feels to me._"

I suspect we all learn lessons, and some lessons are learned from different angles. With me, riding Bandit, there are a lot of things just in our neighborhood - riding down residential streets - that stress him more than what is in the desert. That makes sense, given that he has roamed loose in a herd on the Navajo reservation. The desert makes more sense to him than a residential area.








​ 
With Mia, last winter and spring, I was trying to trust her to work her way past things on a slack rein. We were making some progress, but I was still focused on 'getting past' instead of 'figure it out with my support and encouragement'.

With Bandit, I've been trying to give the time it takes to let him work it out - with some constraints from me. No spinning, no running away...but what else can you think to do? The lady I took lessons from had some faults, but she said something that stuck with me. She said we cannot MAKE a horse make the right choice. But we can reject his wrong choices and wait for him to make the right one.

If Bandit was calmer, I might need to find a way to do that in a round pen. But since he does get nervous just walking through a neighborhood, I can use that as a teaching moment:

"_You are nervous. I am not. We won't run away, but what else can you think of to do? Let's work on this together._" I never did that with Mia. But after reading some of the HF journals and thinking about what is going on, I'm trying it now. I'm trying to teach him to think about things and respond sensibly.

"*If you think about it, the babysitter who continued to mentor from beside or in front of the young horse was taking exactly the same physical, and psychological, position as the mother of a foal will*_._" 

So a 57 year old guy is trying to assume the role of a mother horse. :eek_color: A foal assumes the mother will take care of him and knows best. I need to teach Bandit that humans are like his dam - knowledgeable about the world AND willing to guide and protect him. But like the dam, my goal is for him to '*grow up*' instead of *'join up*' - to learn for himself AND to accept that when we go out alone, he is NOT alone. That we are alone together. We are a herd.

"_There's just a way the skin goes from tight to lose , that tells you he's feeling better about things._" 

I agree. With Bandit, it is extreme - from neck vertical to neck at 30 deg. From back like an I-beam to relaxed.

But riding Trooper the other day, it was much more subtle. Trooper was severely spurred by a cowboy. He doesn't like guys. He'll obey men, but he doesn't enjoy our company. Trooper's spur scars:








​ 
On another journal thread, folks have speculated that a horse who has been overloaded with pressure finds the mere presence of a human to be pressure. In Trooper's case, maybe he finds a guy with a type A personality stressful - not because I'm DOING something to him, but because I am what I am.

" _Horses really HATE it when we put in more pressure than necessary, and especially when they were ready to respond to a lot less. It's a real affront._"

Arguably, Trooper has been grossly offended, then. By a guy. And probably by me, too. I rode him a lot during the time I stopped riding Mia. But my goal was all about ME - MY balance, MY learning to ride. After all, Trooper was an obedient horse. What more could I ask?

But Mia & Bandit & Cowboy are showing me that if I ask more, I sometimes get more. I've been working with Bandit to get him to "talk to me" - to feel free to let me know he is worried, or concerned. That he is free to look around, and if he sees something of interest we can look at it together. And work together to handle it.

Trooper does great with my youngest, who is probably the least demanding rider I've ever seen. Maybe 16 year old Trooper needs to learn what I've been trying to teach 7 year old Bandit - it is OK to talk to your rider even if your rider is a type A guy!

"_In fact, as I think about it, my whole time with horses has been about being able to do more and more by doing less and less._"

If I had read that sentence two years ago, I'd have thought you had lost your mind. Now I think maybe you've found it. Maybe I'm finding mine, too.

I cannot speak to those who compete with horses. But for those more interested in trail riding or even just arena riding for fun, getting a horse who feels free to talk with you, who interacts with you and who is engaged in what you both are doing together - THAT feels like 'horsemanship' to me. Not just riding, but understanding and interacting with the horse. Teaching the horse confidence with humans. Getting a willing partner instead of just an obedient servant. To go from being the command center to the coach...


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## SueC

bsms said:


> I cannot speak to those who compete with horses. But for those more interested in trail riding or even just arena riding for fun, getting a horse who feels free to talk with you, who interacts with you and who is engaged in what you both are doing together - THAT feels like 'horsemanship' to me. Not just riding, but understanding and interacting with the horse. Teaching the horse confidence with humans. Getting a willing partner instead of just an obedient servant. To go from being the command center to the coach...


We started with arena and trails for fun 35 years ago, with our family's first two horses. (Dad had ploughed with horses as a young boy, and been taught by the farmers he worked for in order to help support his family during the war, when his father was in a Siberian prison camp for years, to drive carriages and ride bareback on the carriage horses as well.) This was exactly our ethos, and it seems it's a far more common ethos in Europe than in Australia or the US. Lisbeth Pahnke-Airosto sent me a recent copy of Ridsport (Swedish horse magazine) for which she wrote some features. She and her team have just finished arranging the 2015 European Championships for ponies in Showjumping, Dressage and Eventing (and Lisbeth was happy that the Swedish got the bronze medal ). She also pointed out to me an article on horse education written by a Bulgarian trainer she works with, and I'm not surprised that all the photos show happy, relaxed horses and humans who have a very obvious affection for their horses (the biggest photo shows the trainer and horse cheek to cheek with the most marvellous expressions on their faces). Now I just have to translate what he's actually saying from Swedish to English!

Anyway, Lisbeth Pahnke-Airosto wrote a very influential and educational series of horse novels based on her own experiences, that guided and inspired many young riders in Europe, including yours truly, from the 1970s onwards. It was this very ethos that was embodied in her books and that she passed on to many of her readers. Lisbeth Pahnke-Airosto can speak to this ethos working wonderfully in competitions - Showjumping has been her personal favourite. And our family can confirm that this ethos also works marvellously in competitive harness racing, which my father has now done for 30 years (coming runner-up in the Triple Crown Classic with his very first horse as a qualified trainer-reinsman back in 1986, and having had a row of successful horses over the years). I can confirm it works marvellously for competitive endurance, ridden gymkhana events like barrel and bending races, and dressage and horse shows, which I participated in with my late Arabian mare, who was the first horse I trained from scratch, and educated to saddle and harness according to this ethos... which was an ethos that was also shared by my instructor in the European riding school where I learnt to ride at the age of nine.

Nobody I knew in Europe ever did "join-ups" or anything like that, and we've never done that either. The European style of training is very different. It has a spectrum ranging from kind to cold like anywhere, but in my youth I was surrounded mostly by people with the kind approach, who, it was my observation, never seemed to have the same sorts of problems with their horses as the ones who didn't seem to prize making a genuine connection with their animals, and who were in it mostly for ambition.


I'm just going to post the two photos that went with that baby-sitter quote bsms has been citing, so people can see for themselves what that looked like in harness education:

_This is my father and me in the mid-1980s training Classic Juliet to go in the cart when she was somewhere between one and two years old, which is the usual age we were getting young horses used to a cart.
_









_At the critical stages we always had two people with a horse. Here I elected to drive and dad to lead. This was her first lap around the sand track with a driver. She'd been long reined extensively in preparation and had been familiarised with the cart. Next stage after this would be my father driving and me babysitting at the head, without a lead rope, just for the horse's confidence. The person at the head got pretty fit! :smile:
_









_If you think about it, the babysitter who continued to mentor from beside or in front of the young horse was taking exactly the same physical, and psychological, position as the mother of a foal will. We found that this helped the young horses' confidence no end, and they soon did independently what they had been taught initially with their babysitter present - just like in a herd learning situation. (In a herd, the inexperienced horses will never be pushed to the front in a scary situation - they will be shielded by their mothers, and other mentors. Yet many humans will, unnaturally, push the horses to be the first when there is a scary situation...instead of protecting them.)

I make a similar argument about the helpfulness, in certain situations, of getting off a riding horse and adopting the same physical and psychological position when dealing with something scary or new. I always find the horse really relaxes if it sees me touch the thing of which it is so frightened. Pretty soon, in most cases, if you give it time and are relaxed about it (and don't try to _force_ the horse closer), the horse will be approaching and sniffing the scary thing itself.
_
Italicised parts were excerpts from the original post. To me, of course, this is all second nature and makes complete sense in a way that some of the ideas I've seen on horse training really do not. Some of them seem to completely ignore that the horse is a sentient being with intelligence and dignity, and no less an intrinsic value than a human being actually (although many people subscribe to the humans-as-the-pinnacle-of-life idea...well, I don't, and as a result of not looking at horses with low expectations, I see how magnificent they actually are).


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## bsms

I don't think working WITH the horse is as rare as some DVD trainers make it seem. There are ranches where a cowboy will spur a horse bloody like was done to Trooper, but there are many ranches where the cowboy would be fired on the spot. Trooper's home ranch assigned him to working sheep because that was what he was good at, while his sire was assigned to working rough cattle because that is what the stallion loved to do.

I think the 'total dominance' approach is more common in competitive sports. If you are riding like this, the horse MUST be engaged:










_Emory H. Sager, of the Shoe Bar, on "Old Blue" his favorite cutting horse, working the herd out on roundup grounds. Shoe Bar Ranch, Texas_, 1912

Erwin E. Smith Collection Guide | Collection Guide​ 
If you do a search for pictures of cutting horses, you won't seen much resentment. They mostly look like this random Internet picture:








​
I honestly haven't seen any resentful looking horses on a trail ride. I certainly have been on a horse who became scared during a trail ride. I've been on tired horses. But I haven't seen or ridden one who seemed to resent the ride.

A person can take it to the opposite extreme. Tom Moates second book was better than his first, but it still drove me nuts. Near the end, he describes riding a horse he's owned for years.I grew completely aghast to find out that with every step or two, Niji left me mentally...Before, what I considered to be a horse willfully following my lead as we rode ten steps calmly and happily, instead was really nothing more than Niji going where he wanted to go. I just happened to be up on his back and wanting to go to the same place by coincidence. Then, when I asked for something different, his mind was long gone elsewhere and he wasn't real happy about changing it...

...I started to ride after that sideline help by checking in with Niji every step or two. Literally, I advanced a step and lifted one rein a little to see if his head gave to the ask instantly...If his mind was elsewhere and not right there available to my request, then I worked to bring his head around and disengage the hind quarters until his thought came around too." pages 101-102​That just struck me as sooooo wrong! If I'm out jogging with a friend, we might cover a half mile without talking. That is OK. We're jogging together. If I go out shooting with my SIL, we don't talk much - but those are the times when he is likely to talk about what happened during his two tours in Iraq. You ought to be able to ride a horse like walking with a friend - together, but not obsessed with each other! I don't want my horse continuously trying to stay with me mentally. Who could have fun like that?

And making a horse turn and disengage is hard on the horse. It is no gentler than hitting the horse with a crop every time it stops focusing on you! Now the horse isn't with you because you are a good person to be with, but because you will "_bring his head around and disengage the hind quarters_" if he doesn't! Between that sort of pestering and the never ending round pen work he advocates, the horse probably feels like he is being stalked - like a cute girl getting 23 phone calls a day from someone who wants her attention. Moates wants to build a relationship with the horse, but the phrase "*He's Just Not That Into You*" comes to mind!

There ought to be a happy medium between trying to control the horse's every step and expecting the horse to fall in love with you. If you want obsessed devotion, get a Border Collie. Mine is 2 feet away right now, and he'll follow me to the bathroom whether I want it or not. I have to close the door to keep him out. After all, one never knows if sheep will come tumbling out of the faucet and need to be herded!

It seems to me we should set boundaries - ones that are acceptable to us - and then give the horse freedom within those boundaries. Like kids, horses need and want boundaries. And like kids, horses need freedom. I shouldn't beat them, but neither should I be offended if we don't "bond". "Working together" is fine.

It is OK if my horse doesn't send me flowers (or in my case, buy me a box of ammo :loveshower: ) for my birthday!


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## SueC

Nice post! Man, bsms, that TM quote in your post above seems like pure megalomania to me! Maybe RCD could write a little psychological profile based on such a statement for us, but it seems to me control is a huge issue for this person, and of course you can't work effectively and ethically with horses or with people when that's the kind of emotional baggage you're lugging...and I will observe again that those who carry on the most about "respect" (by which they mean having to have it) are the least likely, from my observations, to actually _offer_ any, whether to humans or other fellow creatures like horses, or the earth in general. It seems to me that it always has to be about them, and that the horse doesn't really figure except as an object to act upon and a being to subjugate - as a possession to which to do as they please. And that, to me, seems not just psychologically, but also spiritually immature. And that just can't lead to anything profound either...


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## SueC

...and how lovely, by contrast, is Alicia Burton and how she works with her horses and thinks about them:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxuqbZ0Q_9c

I especially like how she words her philosophy about horse training and working with "problem" horses around two minutes into this clip. I also think "you're amazing" is a far better attitude than "you owe me". ;-)

Like all the horsepeople I admire, she oozes warmth and calm, and is exactly the sort of person you just know horses are going to enjoy working with.

Also this lady:

http://augustusthemustang.wordpress.com/

You can just see it in the way she works with her horses. I'd want to work with her too!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

bsms said:


> I grew completely aghast to find out that with every step or two, Niji left me mentally...Before, what I considered to be a horse willfully following my lead as we rode ten steps calmly and happily, instead was really nothing more than Niji going where he wanted to go. I just happened to be up on his back and wanting to go to the same place by coincidence. Then, when I asked for something different, his mind was long gone elsewhere and he wasn't real happy about changing it...
> 
> ...I started to ride after that sideline help by checking in with Niji every step or two. Literally, I advanced a step and lifted one rein a little to see if his head gave to the ask instantly...If his mind was elsewhere and not right there available to my request, then I worked to bring his head around and disengage the hind quarters until his thought came around too." pages 101-102​ There ought to be a happy medium between trying to control the horse's every step and expecting the horse to fall in love with you.


 For reference is he talking about in the arena or riding in the open?

Old Ghost will actually take a little snooze if a rider is on his back and not providing direction just standing there. Lift the reins and his head comes up, the eyes fly open and he is immediately ready for your next request. I liken it to a computer going into standby mode. 

Doing trails with Oliver, he does get into a rhythm of relaxation where I'm not telling him what to do because the status quo is fine. His head is low, his pace is even and we just go. Again if I lift the reins or lay a foot on then his mind is comes back on me. I don't expect him to constantly obsess about me out on a three or four hour ride, that would be neurotic behavior and take the fun out of it for both of us. 

_"I grew completely aghast to find out that with every step or two, Niji left me mentally..."_

Though I don't understand how he could suddenly realize this, without it having been readily apparent before, a place where I could see it being an issue is in the arena. Depending upon the kind of riding he is doing, such as flat work or even pole bending a horse that is tuned out to the rider between poles or in the middle of a dressage pattern would be an issue as the cues come fairly rapidly in some cases. 

Ollie gets like this sometimes in the arena, especially when a pretty mare walks by waving her tail in the air! In that case, yes I do try to get his interest back on me. On the other hand, we also keep arena work to a minimum; he and I prefer trails much more.


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## bsms

"In the past, our issues manifested when we left the confines of the corral and got out onto the farm roads....usually the first trip went pretty well. Then...I'd notice Nija become less willing to go where I wanted. Finally, things deteriorated into a huge battle where he wanted to go one way and I another, and we spun circles where I tried desperately yet futilely to pressure and release him to my idea. Eventually it led to my dismounting and walking him back home for safety." - pg 98​There is a balance. Mia mostly got over her fears, but she would startle severely at times - usually when everything was calm and relaxed and she seemed utterly content. Then BOOM! - for 5 seconds, and then she'd look back to me as if to ask for an explanation of what just happened. My best guess is that she would mentally fall asleep strolling down a trail, then wake up and be startled to find herself somewhere she didn't recognize.

For a situation like that, mixing things up enough to prevent her from falling asleep while walking would probably have helped. At least, that was my plan to try about the time I had the chance to trade her for Bandit. I had worked for so long to calm her that I had, perhaps, gone too far!

But what Moates seems to be talking about is needing to have the horse mentally tied to you constantly. The idea is that you direct the horse's thought, and the thought needs to be with you for you to direct it. Then you 'send it left' and the horse turns left to follow 'his thought' that you just sent left. Frankly, it is all a bit weird to me. 

My idea is that we keep doing what we were doing until I say it is time to do something different. During that down time, the horse is free to look around, smell, let me know the trail is too rocky and he/she needs to slow, etc. But unless I say otherwise, we'll keep doing pretty much what we were doing.

I think the problem was that horses like a confident rider. They do not like uncertainty. Most do not like making big decisions. They want a rider who is intent on going from A to B, and who will tell them at B that he wants to go right to C. They want a confident leader, and confident leaders don't say, "_So...would you like to go right? Right feels good to me, how does it feel to you? I want you to be happy if we go right. Will right make you happy?_"

Even when a horse is getting scared, they like someone to suggest options. They don't want to be beaten into submission, but a suggestion "Let's go right and move 50 feet away. That will give us a buffer zone and, when you are feeling safer, I'll show you why I'm not worried." If you leave the decision making totally up to the horse, with zero input from you...well, a horse on its own doesn't like making those decisions.

If you try to force a horse into a situation that scares him, you need to be able to totally dominate the horse. If you work with the horse, you can give him suggestions before the fear hits the "blind panic" spot, and teach him. But if you leave the decision making up to him, or push him until he is hitting the blind panic zone...then it gets ugly.

If you respond by then dismounting and leaving the area, the horse learns the way to avoid a scary thing is to get you to dismount. If you dismount before that stage, and put yourself between him and the scary thing, and show him it wasn't scary to begin with, then dismounting can work well.

But reading it, I don't think Nija was afraid. I think he just didn't feel like it. His rider wasn't the boss. His rider wasn't confident. And Nija didn't feel like it and so he rebelled. Cowboy will do that with a rider. If you want him to go right and he wants to go left, you'd better be ready to back up the cue to go right. If you don't, Cowboy will dominate YOU. But if you jump in his chili and insist, he quickly figures out you are serious about things and he might as well go along. And then he relaxes.

Apart from fear, Mia would do the same. She was willing about 98% of the time. But if she wasn't, you'd better to be ready to go toe to hoof with her and insist. If not...she'd take charge and ignore you.

I don't believe in starting a fight with a horse. But if the horse insists on one, the rider needs to engage. Trooper and Lilly both were/are horses who will work with a submissive rider. Mia and Cowboy were/are horses who are willing to dominate a submissive rider. Bandit is in between, as he is in so many other ways.

And all new riders, including me after 7 years, will judge their horse and thus their response incorrectly at times. But I don't try to ride by some sort of spiritual bonding with my horse. It is a two-way thing, not all horse or all rider, but a give and take that depends on the horse's personality and desires as well as the rider's.

And sometimes, the correct response to a horse is "_I don't give a rat's rear end what you want!_" If the horse is willing to work, work with him. If the horse wants to fight, then fight. But with most horses and in most cases, if you are clear and confident, they'll go along - without a fight and without needing to keep their focus on you every moment and every step.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

bsms said:


> I don't believe in starting a fight with a horse. _*But if the horse insists on one, the rider needs to engage.*_ Trooper and Lilly both were/are horses who will work with a submissive rider. Mia and Cowboy were/are horses who are willing to dominate a submissive rider. Bandit is in between, as he is in so many other ways.
> 
> And all new riders, including me after 7 years, will judge their horse and thus their response incorrectly at times. But I don't try to ride by some sort of spiritual bonding with my horse. It is a two-way thing, not all horse or all rider, but a give and take that depends on the horse's personality and desires as well as the rider's.
> 
> And sometimes, the correct response to a horse is "_I don't give a rat's rear end what you want!_" If the horse is willing to work, work with him. If the horse wants to fight, then fight. But with most horses and in most cases, if you are clear and confident, they'll go along - without a fight and without needing to keep their focus on you every moment and every step.


 
I bolded the part that I both agree and disagree with as I think to some extent it comes down to knowing your horse. 

I think I posted this before a while back but since Oliver generally doesn't give me much guff, I don't have too many recent stories to share and end up having to repeat some.

We were out riding with another horse-rider pair, we had gotten "lost" and finally found the trail again. I wasn't worried about being lost, but I know my human buddy had been. When we came back to the trail it was a right or left choice. My buddy went right, Oliver wanted to go left (it happened to be the shortest way back to familiar territory). A fight ensued and I reciprocated his stubbornness with my own considerable version. After a minute or so literally going in circles and sideways and everywhere but up thank-goodness, we had gotten nowhere and emotions on both our ends were running high. Rather than grabbing a switch off a branch and further escalating, I stopped fighting by simply asking him to stand. He stood and stopped fighting too. We sat for a few seconds, took some breaths and I asked again to head to the right. We went along without a problem. 

In the end, what worked best for him was to settle both of us down and ask again. Otherwise it could have ended like this.

two men fighting both get knocked out - Bing Videos 

Sometimes I think we are not all that different from our horses and our brains get stuck in a loop!


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## bsms

I had a similar case with Mia once, when she wanted to trot quickly home. I couldn't hold her back, but I was trying and we both were getting ****ed. I got her stopped, both of us panting. Then I tried something besides direct confrontation - we 'compromised'. She could choose the speed and I would choose the direction. Want to trot fast? Great - turn away from home and let's go!

That's not what you wanted? OK, since you are walking, let's turn and walk home. It took her about 5 minutes to decide HOME is what she wanted, and we then walked all the way home. But by giving her some choice, she stopped fighting. And since I wasn't sure I could come out on top, avoiding a fight to the finish made sense.

BTW - just finished a ride on Bandit for the first time in 2 weeks. His leg owwwies seem to be healing. No limping. He rode today like he did 2 weeks ago. Spooked once at a mail truck. He did a 180, so I turned it into a 360. Since we ended up facing the truck, I suggested we move to one side to get more buffer room. He agreed. We then watched the mail truck. It started up and moved past us, never "charging" us. 

I asked Bandit if he felt stupid. He obviously did not. But we once again worked together to get a mutually acceptable plan, and we both lived. Other than that, he behaved beautifully the whole 40 minutes. We'll go out longer next time.

Oh - and as I walked from our little arena to the corral area, he went to the gate & met me there, nickering. After getting him tacked up, I mounted and he walked out with quick strides, ears forward. I think it felt good to him, too. Sure did to me. He's not as sensible about things as Cowboy, but he's less likely to tell me something rude, too.


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## Zexious

I will admit that I did read every word of every paragraph (my retention is not what it used to be after my accident!) but I feel the thing I am going to propose is relevant regardless.

In the same way that humans are complex creatures, and (psychological, in particular) studies (try as they may) often fall entirely short of evaluating the human condition, I think that blanket statements for horses fall short as well. What works for one horse, may not work for another and it's an owner's responsibility to try out new things and take opinions into consideration. I'm not sure coming to some divine truth about anything (except, perhaps, the statement 'get a trainer' xD As I have seen so many times in the training section of this forum) regarding horses will ever be found.

In this way, I applaud the way you explore different texts, bsms. I'm not sure how seamlessly textual information translates into practical knowledge in these cases, but it certainly isn't hurting anything!

Any updates from Mia's new owners?


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## bsms

I talked to him on the phone about a week ago. They have realized she sometimes startles pretty hard, but they all have been riding a long time and even the kids have butts like glue. So they stick on and keep going. I'm told she is mostly being ridden by kids since she is so "willing and responsive".

If she does OK having a foal this spring, then they will try to have her artificially inseminated by a good Arabian sport stallion next year. In the meantime, she'll mostly be ridden by fearless kids with sticky butts, so to speak! And in all honesty, I think that would be a great combo with Mia...something a 57 year old guy who started riding very late couldn't really provide.

I agree there is no one answer. Even the same horse might need a very different answer depending on who is riding her. I simply could not ride Mia the way a 10 year old kid who grew up on horses can.

Or another example: the saddle I had made for Mia has more 'rock' than Bandit's level back needs. It is an OK fit, but...today I tried putting the front half of my Wintec riser pad in the front. Bandit is SO narrow, and his back is so level. Well, one day's ride makes it too soon to declare total success. But I was VERY happy with the feel - the saddle felt more stable and less forward. Bandit acted comfortable. At the end, the sweat marks were very even all the way from the very front to the back.

A small change, but I felt more balanced and more confident riding. "More balanced and more confident" is HUGE to a horse. So that small change may make it easier for me to ride Bandit in a way that helps Bandit to relax and feel confident. So many variables in riding! That is why ultimately a rider needs to mount up and LEARN. Constantly learn, mostly from our horses. Not my beloved books, or the DVDs some like. Doing. Failing. Trying again. Seeing what works and doesn't work. Finding out a different horse behaves differently. Keep learning. It never ends. But who would want it to?


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## Bondre

Interesting quotes from Moates. From what you have shared of his writing here, he sounds likes a monumental PITA to his horse, picking up the rein and checking in every two steps. No wonder his horse got barn sour, if he was riding like that on the trails too. 



bsms said:


> But what Moates seems to be talking about is needing to have the horse mentally tied to you constantly. The idea is that you direct the horse's thought, and the thought needs to be with you for you to direct it. Then you 'send it left' and the horse turns left to follow 'his thought' that you just sent left. Frankly, it is all a bit weird to me.


This does seem an odd way to communicate, but it also reminds me of what Tinyliny wrote about Harry Whitney's methods in her thread. Although she was referring to groundwork in the round pen, and it sounded like much more of a contemplative exercise. Whereas Moates is trying to do it in the saddle. 

Or maybe he's just riding like anyone else and he uses this terminology of directing the horse's thoughts in order to stand out from other NH trainers? In your second quote, where he says they would circle while he made futile attempts to pressure his horse to "release to his idea", that just sounds like normal pressure and release to me, but he sticks in the word "idea" to make it sound more special and communicative.... like putting whipped cream and a cherry on a sponge cake and calling it a gateau. 

I don't think Niji was afraid either. I don't know if he lacked confidence in his rider, or if he was just fed up and couldn't see the point of what they were doing. Does TM mention praising his horse at any point, or just niggling him?

With respect to picking a fight or not, I agree that it's best to know your horse here so you know how much of a fight you can win before you start. As you said yourself that you did with Mia when she wanted to run home. I reckon that lateral thinking on the rider's part in these situations is very useful. Find a way to win the situation over without going into a head-on confrontation.

In your example, you offered to share the decision-making with Mia, and ended up convincing her to do things your way. Very nice! If you'd gone heavy-handed on her, I'm sure the result would have been more uncertain. And in RCD's example, she takes time out with her horse, and they both discover that the issue isn't actually an issue at all (great technique for managing high - tension situations between humans too, lol ). This is very similar to what I did with Macarena recently, when she didn't want to cross a buried irrigation pipe. We followed the pipe uphill for 100m, and I asked her to cross several times, but she baulked. In the end, I stopped her and let her graze for five minutes. Turned her round and asked her again, and she went straight over.

I'm glad to hear that Bandit is back in action, and that he is pleased to be doing things again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms

I had an interesting ride on Cowboy today. Started with him bucking and trying to throw me - not pain, since he settled down quickly enough and then rode well for 2 hours. It also included being shot at by some idiots shooting in the desert without any attention to safety. Heard more bullets go by today than I heard in 6 months in Afghanistan.

However, the wall of text that follows simply interested me from a historical viewpoint. It was written in 1868 - 147 years ago, which is well before natural horsemanship supposedly discovered horses and men could work together. I post some excerpts to show how a cavalry officer approached riding in the mid-1800s, underlining mine:The French say, when speaking of a horse that shows restiveness, "il se defend" - he defends himself...There is much truth in this expression, and it is one that riders should constantly bear in mind, for insubordination is most commonly the result of something having been demanded from the horse that it either did not know how to do or was unable to perform...

...There is another thing to be considered with regard to the horse's character - it loves to exercise its powers, and it possesses a great spirit of emulation; it likes variety of scene and amusement ; and under a rider that understands how to indulge it in all this without overtaxing its powers, will work willingly to the last gasp,which is what entitles it to the name of a noble and generous animal...

..Horses don't like to be ennuye, and will rather stick at home than go out to be bored ; they like amusement, variety, and society : give them their share of these, but never in a pedantic way, and avoid getting into a groove of any kind, either as to time or place, especially with young animals. It is evident that all these things must be taken into account and receive due attention, whether it be our object to prevent or to get rid of some bad habit a horse may have acquired ; and a little reflection will generally suffice to point out the means of remedying something that, if left to itself, would grow into a confirmed habit, or *if attacked with the energy of folly and violence*, would suddenly culminate in the grand catastrophe of restiveness...

...Here, too, we find a practical hint for the treatment of full-grown horses that shy at particular objects and sounds, or object to passing certain spots. Treat them as the English trainer does his young ones, lead them about as described above, and reward them for their docility with a bit of bread, sugar, or something of the sort ; you will thus avoid all conflicts, the danger and evil consequences of which are enhanced a thousandfold if you attempt to mount your horse under such circumstances. Of course, when shyness arises from defective vision, which is often the case, this method will be of no avail.

----------------------------------------

Bolting. The first step to be taken is to ascertain why the horse bolts. A nervous and excitable temperament is sometimes the cause, and the only remedy will be quiet and judicious treatment...

...The first impulse of the great majority of riders whose horses bolt is, to put a sharper bit into their mouths, or at least to shorten the curb, and perhaps rig the horse out with some sort of martingal or running-reins that gives them a good hold of the head, to secure which more effectually they plant their feet firmly in the stirrups, probably at the same time throwing their own weight as far back as possible towards the horse's loins. *Energy is an admirable thing, but the energy of stupidity seldom avails much* ; and the above plan of proceeding is nearly sure to make matters worse, and convert a terrified animal into a vicious one. For whether the anguish the poor horse endeavours to escape from has its seat in the hind quarters or in the head and neck, severe bitting is sure to aggravate it, and a rude hard hand will do the same. The best, in fact the only, remedy for a bolter is, a very carefully fitted and well adjusted bit, a perfectly painless curb, a light hand, and last, but not least, a very firm steady seat, somewhat forward with horses that have weak hind quarters...

...Let us take the case of a horse running away in a field or open space, in the first instance, as being more easy to deal with. Here the principal object must be to take your horse off the straight line and on to a circle at first, of course, a wide one, but by degrees gradually narrowing. On a circle one has room enough even for the tiring process, seeing that it never ends, but the thing is to know how to get and keep the horse on to it. In the first place, then, it requires simply coolness and self-possession sufficient to enable the rider to sit well down in his saddle, bringing his legs well back and keeping his body upright the legs being required there to regulate the action of the horse's hind legs in the manner already described, whilst the upright position of the body affords a basis from which the arms can work. Next, instead of pulling a dead pull on both reins alike, the rider must take intermittent pulls on the one at the side he wishes to turn towards, gradually increasing the strength of the pull, and then as gradually relaxing to begin again...

...The circle affords, however, not merely an opportunity for avoiding dangerous obstacles ; its great value is, that it also enables the rider, by gradually obtaining command over his horse, to demonstrate to the latter the utter futility of its attempt to get rid of him by running away, and that, too, without violence or severity. One single attempt at bolting away, if taken advantage of in this manner by a judicious rider, may prove the means of effectually subduing a troublesome animal...

...Rearing would occur much less frequently if it were well understood that it is almost always the last stage of disobedience, and very seldom if ever the first. In fact, its occurrence is evidence of injudicious management of some kind, either from untrained horses being brought into positions for which they are as yet unfitted, or from something being demanded of them that was beyond their power ; or from the rider not knowing how to recognise and subdue the very first symptoms of disobedience; or, finally, from his using violent and intemperate methods of doing so.

On Seats and Saddles, by Francis Dwyer, Major of Hussars in the Imperial Austrian Service (1868)

https://ia802607.us.archive.org/25/items/onseatssaddlesbi00dwyerich/onseatssaddlesbi00dwyerich.pdf​I'll write more about the ride Cowboy & I had with a friend riding Trooper later.


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## waresbear

Oh brutal bsms, nothing can destroy a ride more than gunfire, reason why I stick to the roads now, hunting season here. While I never had a problem, better to be safe than sorry and I can still hear shooting while riding on the road. As for your horse trying to unload you, well horses just be like that. Testing, always testing, apparently you passed the test, well done. I just acquired a new horse from my daughter, trained to the nine's, former provincial champion and some AQHA points to boot. ****** still tested me first day he officially became mine, tried bolting on me twice at lessons. He doesn't do that anymore, lol. Oh, and he ran away last week, in heavy, pouring rain. I chased him for a bit, got soaked, he ran into the bush, I went home and went to bed, good bye champion show horse, I don't chase nuttin' in the rain and into the bush. Woke up a few hours later, look outside, there's Otis waiting at the paddock gate ready to be let in. He's been the perfect horse since then, nickers at me whenever I go outside, I have a feeling your Cowboy might be the same....


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## bsms

Well...we started with bucking. However, I just went to clean the corral in the evening twilight, and Cowboy strolled over and asked for attention. I've owned him for close to 3 years, and that is the first time he ever sought me out on his own in the corral. So...maybe I passed some sort of test. I gave him face and back rubs, then he strolled off to eat a bit of hay.

The guy who went riding with me has been around horses his entire life. He agreed with my interpretation - Cowboy wasn't hurt, just telling me to go to hell. I kept his head up and he couldn't buck hard. He then tried the "I won't move" thing. I guess I had a premonition, because I had a leather strap hanging from the saddle horn for the first time in ages. I smacked MY leg hard, and he'd jump forward for 3-4 strides, then try to buck, then I'd smack my leg, we'd move forward & he'd buck again. We went at it for 3-5 minutes - felt longer to me, but might have been more like 2 for all I know. 

Then he saw the opening of the arena onto the road and trotted fast for it. I asked my friend - an A-10 pilot - if he was ready. He laughed, said yes, and we started our ride. And Cowboy worked hard and honest for the next 2 hours. 

He was genuinely SCARED when we were being shot at. My friend told me after the ride that when he moved to one side, he could see the bullets whipping thru the vegetation to the side of Cowboy & I. So probably Cowboy sensed how close it was.

We were kind of at a loss about what to do. The shots were near us and coming straight down the trail we needed. But turning around would make a very long ride (my worry) and leave us within range of the shooters for the next mile or so (my friend's worry).

He was on steady Trooper, and decided to trot/canter forward. It was a very smart call. When being shot at randomly, the time in the field of fire is what increases your chance of being hit, so moving forward fast gave the best chance of not being hit.

That is what we figured out later. He told me he just got ****ed off, so he urged Trooper forward. Cowboy didn't WANT to go forward, but when he saw Trooper going fast - well, to use the terminology of Moates, Cowboy's thoughts were about 150 yard in front of Trooper. He cantered and I worked the bit to try to get his thought closer to us. It must have worked. At one point Trooper went left around an obstacle, and I was able to direct Cowboy right in a shortcut. 

When we spotted the shooters, my friend insisted on confronting them. We pointed out someone shooting needs to know WHERE THEY ARE SHOOTING. The guy on Trooper is about 6'3" and was armed, so he probably made the point more emphatically than I did! Still - I don't think it registered in the shooters' minds (if they had any) that they had done something wrong.

Still, it was kind of fun to see a good rider urge a horse to go fast on a twisting trail. And we both survived - as Churchill said, few things are as exhilarating as being shot at and missed. And Cowboy TRIED. He was certain something was very wrong, but he never totally lost his nerve or his mind!

As we left, Cowboy was nervous enough that he wanted to trot, so little 700 lb Cowboy trotted the next half mile with 200+ lbs of rider and tack on him, and after 90 minutes of hilly, rocky riding. It didn't seem to bother him physically in the least. That little tank seems entirely capable of carrying my weight...at around 30%.

And like I said, this evening was the first time in nearly 3 years that he has crossed the corral to ask for attention from me.

Trooper, riding off trail:








​ 
On a dirt road - 6'3" looks even bigger on Trooper's 14.3 hand, 850 lb body here...but Trooper also never faltered or hesitated today:








​ 
The closest thing I got to a picture of Cowboy today:








​ 
We may have had a rocky start, but Cowboy continues to impress me overall. He has spunk and sometimes some attitude. Unlike Mia, he will see what he can get away with. But he also has a lot of good sense, good balance, he's strong for his size and he has a lot to give a rider. And when he got SCARED, he wanted me to provide direction!

I missed riding Bandit - his front feet are still to tender for the trail we used today - but he might have had more problem with gunfire. Or not - I seem to recall his previous owner say he's been ridden while hunting coyotes that were harassing the sheep. So he might have been like Trooper - unhappy, but not too put out.

But Cowboy is proving to be a darn good horse in his own right. All 13 hands of him.:loveshower:


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## bsms

I wrote this on another thread, but then realized it is all about Bandit and what he & I need to do:



bsms said:


> Mia, Trooper and Cowboy have all gone barefoot. They have no problems walking on desert trails, and trotting in some places. They could not handle cantering on all the trails, nor could they handle going 10+ miles a day.
> 
> Bandit is still transitioning. His rear shoes were pulled in May - no problem at all. The fronts were pulled on 6 June.
> 
> The good news? His feet now measure 5.0 inches across instead of 4.5 inches. That means roughly 20% more area to contact the ground. The toe is growing at a steeper angle, so I assume he was shod in a way that pulled the toe out.
> 
> He tends to stretch out his stride and slap his feet down at both a walk and at a canter. I think that is because of how he was shod and ridden. He thinks that is "normal". At a walk, he is almost able to handle the trails here barefoot. He CAN handle them when I walk beside him. That reduces the total impact since I weight 20% of his weight (the saddle is close to 5%). It also forces him to slow down.
> 
> At a walk, he is starting to use his feet like a normal horse. I'm hoping he doesn't have internal damage due to how he has moved for the last few years (he is 7). I'm starting to ride him on trails and using the "Owwwyyy" factor to get him to slow down, watch his footing, and bring his stride back in. One of the ways a horse adapts to a heavier rider is to take shorter steps and leave each foot on the ground a little longer - about 10% IIRC, which is not something we would notice without a video and timer. I think that is also part of adapting to being barefoot - learning to move in a more natural way.
> 
> I think Bandit is STARTING to use his heel more and slap his toe down less. He doesn't do it at a trot, BTW. But walking around on the hard ground of his corral isn't enough. And while I'm tempted by boots, I think what he really needs is to learn to walk and canter without shoes and without being long in the toe. I'm afraid booting him would allow his bad habits to continue.
> 
> So I ride him on pavement. I'm working him more in our little arena - it isn't just his feet, it is how he uses his entire body. He prefers to brace his back, go in straight lines, use long strides and slap his feet down. So I've set up cones, and we're doing turns around cones, changes in directions and starting to use more transitions in gaits. I spend most of my arena time in two point, which is pretty odd for a western rider!
> 
> We're making some progress. The groove next to the frog was less than 1/4" deep when the shoes were pulled. Maybe closer to 1/8" - almost none. It is about 1/2" now. His feet have gotten wider and rounder. He braces his back less. He is losing muscle, I think - from the bottom of his neck! Yes! He is using his head more for balance. Yesterday, he even curled his neck looking back at me. We stopped after 25 minutes yesterday. In part because of the wind getting bad, but mainly because he gave me a couple laps of the best western jog he's ever done - loose, decent balance and calm. I even settled some of my weight in the saddle and he didn't tense up. So I decided to end while things were going good!
> 
> I'm not convinced horses are all that stoic. I think many of them have been cowed into silence. Ridden by someone who will listen, a horse ought to tell you if it is getting painful. But the rider needs to understand he is conditioning his horse, which means taking baby steps until the horse's capacity increases.
> 
> I haven't owned many horses, but I suspect Bandit may be typical of a lot of transitioning horses. It isn't just pulling shoes, and it isn't just walking on rough ground. He needs to learn a new way of moving. He also needs a thicker sole. And I need to build him up - not just his feet, but his back, his strides, his balance, his head position, his neck, his confidence, his calmness, his willingness to "talk to his rider", etc. He's been in shoes for years. He's improved over the last 4 months, but it may take another 4-8 months. I need patience...which is hard for me.
> 
> This was the first week of July. There is just so much wrong in this picture! A horse who moves like this on a rocky trail will have problems - ones that go beyond the feet alone. The feet are a symptom as much as a cause.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​


Bandit has a good attitude. We have a long way to go, but he seems likely to turn into a good little horse (around 800 lbs). It is finally cooling off, which will make riding easier, but we've also had a ton of rain (sorry, California). I hadn't thought much about it, but we probably need to do more arena work in order to set him up for success on a trail.


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## bsms

Bandit is making some progress. His feet are getting thick enough and broad enough that he can start going on trails again. He's moving a little better. He is teaching me to be a better rider. Mia taught me a lot, but I became very defensive in riding her...and that defensiveness hurt my riding. It was almost certainly counter-productive as well. I think I'm gaining better balance and getting better at moving in synch with my horse on Bandit.

He got nervous today when on a street that passed by a guy loading tree branches into the back of his truck. In his defense, it DID look like some bushes had grown legs and were walking toward the road. There was a time, though, that I might have needed to back off and dismount. But he is slowly becoming more confident, and he seemed more worried than afraid. So I pressed him to go forward, and he did. By the far side of the road, but it was forward! 

The main goal for today was to get him on some trails and see how he handled them with my weight on his back. His hooves are growing, and the grooves of the frog are now about 1/2-5/8 inch deep, versus about 1/8" deep in June. And happily, he mostly walked the same as he did before getting his front shoes off. Not quite the same. Better. In the rockier patches, he slowed down and watched where his feet went. He moved to stay on the smoothest sections of the trail. And I think he is doing more of a heel first landing than toe first in shoes.

He likes the trails better than the streets. He likes pavement, but he doesn't like the houses and all the people stuff involved in walking thru a neighborhood. We did do a lot of trotting on the paved roads...he still tends to brace his back and trot very fast. It was a struggle, and not an entirely successful one, to slow him to a jog.

We did have a surprise today. While going through the wash (dry creek beds, usually sandy in southern Arizona), Trooper stopped and laid down on his belly. My youngest got off quick, then screamed bloody murder and he got back on his feet. He didn't try to roll, but Trooper is our "Steady Eddie" - *The Horse Who Does No Wrong*! But lying down with a rider on your back counts as WRONG!

With him back on his feet, my daughter chose to lead him until we were out of the wash. He didn't try to lie down again. Bandit just looked at him with a sneer on his face. Well, I think it was a sneer. We climbed out of the wash about 100 yards down, and she remounted on solid ground. Trooper has been having problems with flies on his belly. I've been trying to keep enough fly spray on his belly to give him some relief, but my wife suggested that might have been the problem. I don't know. But it shows even the steadiest horse can have his moments.

Bandit had one too. After 75 minutes of riding, and a few hundred yards from our house, my daughter trotted Trooper. That is OK. Bandit doesn't need to go faster just because the other horse is. That was MY thought. Bandit didn't share it. He tried to speed up. I blocked with the reins & bit. A second time & a second block. Bandit pinned his ears and dropped his head to start bucking. I once again did my Arizona Ranger imitation on him: "_Reach for the sky, Bandit!_" Before he could get his head down and get a good buck in, I was giving him a choice: Raise your head, or I'll tear it in two. He raised it.

I was ****ed. Bucking? I rode Mia for 7 years and she never bucked once. Bucking? I don't think so! With his head at stargazer levels, I pulled his head around and yes: I jerked hard on the reins several times. I think it qualified as "punish the mouth". Not nice on my part, but bucking is not nice on his part.

Bandit and Cowboy are both very different in personality from Mia. Mia was afraid, or willing, but rarely rebellious and NEVER mean. But if Bandit or Cowboy gets upset, they are not above trying to throw a hissy fit that includes bucking. Bandit pulled it the first time a couple of days ago. He tried again, very briefly today, on pavement. Had his head stayed down, he might have been able to make a mess of things. I'm hoping I convinced him this is NOT a productive tactic.

I'm not big on dominating a horse. But I'm also not big on being dominated by the horse. Mia wasn't like that. She had plenty of attitude, but no thought of hurting a human. It makes me wonder if Bandit and I will ever click.

I've told people to ride the training, not the bond. I mean it. And I am certain Bandit is a safer horse to ride than Mia. He spooks at times, but he calms quick. He doesn't lose his mind. He's gaining confidence, and we are starting to work well together. He is beginning to trust my judgment about going ahead when nervous. But he doesn't have that "_ooohhhhhh, what are we going to do together today_" feel that Mia had. I'm riding a horse. He is starting to be a good horse to ride. But I'm not out with a friend. It is kind of like when I ride Trooper: *I'm riding a horse. Just a horse. Not my friend.
*
My extremely tentative plan right now is to ride him thru the spring, then sell him as a good riding trail horse and look for another Arabian mare. He's been very good for me, but he might make a better horse for someone else someday. I think he'll turn into a good horse for a relaxing trail ride, who is pretty much the same horse every day. Skip a week of riding, get on and he'll be pretty much the same as if you rode him a few hours ago.

And that is a great horse for many people. I'm just not sure it is really what I want. I adored both of the purebred Arabian mares I've owned, so there may be another in my future. But not until I get better at riding and training a horse. Bandit may be a great horse for me to work on. I've gained a lot of confidence. I'm actually a better balanced rider now. I can feel the improvement. If he teaches me how to put a good base on a horse - nothing fancy, just a horse who will go forward with confidence, can jog side by side with another horse and who will stretch out and walk fast and easy down a desert trail - then he'll have taught me some valuable lessons.

But 6-9 months from now, if we are just working together and not having fun together, I might put him up for sale.


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## enh817

I know you didn't ask for advice, so feel free to skip this, but I just saw a few points where I could offer some insight you might find useful 

re Trooper laying down -- sometimes they just forget for a moment that someone is up there  He probably just hit the nice soft sand and was like 'hmmm this is a fabulous place to roll, OH whoops forgot you were up there!' Not that it makes it okay for him to do that, but don't hold it against him  It's a pretty distinct feeling when their knees start to buckle and they're about to go down. Advise your daughter to remember that feeling and especially be prepared that it could happen again in soft sand or dirt, or water. If she feels it happening in the future, kicking the horse forward (or slapping their rump with the end of a rein, if she can), will get them moving so they don't lay down. 

re Bandit bucking -- since you describe him as a pretty level headed dude, I suspect that he has had success in the past getting someone off by bucking, and he still sees it as a viable option to get away from pressure and in this case, back to his buddy. I don't really think he has bad intentions, just that is a learned behavior from his past. You are skilled enough to get rid of this behavior. Just make sure that when he goes to bucking you put a lot of pressure on him, however you can, and release when he quits. If you are able to successfully win a number of those battles (number depending on how many times he was able to successfully win in the past), you'll likely feel him get to the point where he thinks about bucking, but then remembers that it hasn't worked for him recently and chooses not to. Reward the heck out of that thought process, maybe even dismount and loosen the cinch, to really drive home the point.

For the bracing and trotting fast, I would use what is called hinging. Work on it at a walk, before using it for speed control at a trot. The goal is to have the horse travelling straight in the body, with his head and neck soft and bent to one side or the other. It helps with speed control, because they can't trot as fast like that and it's also more work for them to move in that way, than to move straight ahead. With you using either one rein or the other, to hinge their head and neck to the side, they can't lock up their spine and brace against you like they can if you pick up both hands at the same time. To do it, you just reach one hand down the rein and slowly pick up and ask the face to the side, to somewhere between 45 degrees and 90. If you're in a curb, it's more of a straight back and up motion, if in a snaffle, it's a wide opening hand. Use your legs to keep his body straight if he tries to follow his nose, while maintaining feel in your hand (give and take as he gives and tries to take his face). In the beginning just look for one step, then as that becomes easier, ask for two and build from there. You're looking for him to be soft in the face and neck, and follow your hand around in such a way that he maintains slack in the rein, and keep his body straight on his own without you needing to use leg. This drill is used for a lot of things, but I really like it for slowing them down in the trot (and it will also help him relax and soften all the way through his spine). Once you've trained him to do it, when you feel him start to speed up, you can hinge him until you feel his feet slow and him relax, then release him back to straight and repeat as needed. If you are deliberate about it and don't let your hand get too fast, he'll start to anticipate that when he gets quick and you pick a rein up he is going to have to slow his feet and relax his body in order to hinge to the side, so he will go ahead and do that without you actually having to hinge him. You do that enough and he'll get to where you can just pick up one rein ever so slightly and he'll relax into a slower pace, and then to where he mostly just maintains that slow relaxed pace.
It's not a quick process, but I have found that it's the best way to put speed control on them without having to get into a pulling match or teaching them to brace against your hands, as can often happen if you're applying pressure to both reins at the same time, with their neck straight. 

Note: don't try to prevent him from speeding up. Don't protect him from his mistake so much that he never has a chance to learn. Let him get quick, then correct him and leave it alone until he speeds up again.


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## tinyliny

Ive never heard of such a thing as "hinging". you are asking him to keep going straight, while allowing you to pull his head to one side? does this not teach a horse to run right through the rein?


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## enh817

tinyliny said:


> Ive never heard of such a thing as "hinging". you are asking him to keep going straight, while allowing you to pull his head to one side? does this not teach a horse to run right through the rein?


If you do it before they have a solid understanding of following their nose, then yes it will. Or if it's all you ever do, then yes. 
If the horse will follow their nose with their body, then it's just the next step toward getting them more broke in the face and neck. It's being able to 'disconnect' the head from the rest of the body. It's something you NEED to have on a lot of performance horses. Like if I'm working a cow, I need the horse to be able to give his head in the direction of the cow while keeping his shoulders stood up and continuing to travel straight. 

To make sure I don't lose what I've already taught them about following their nose, I will use hinging in combination with other manuevers. I will ask for the head, while keeping them moving straight, then when that feels good, I will use my legs to tell the body to follow the head around in a circle, not moving my hands much, then put the body back on the straight line, then use my legs to ask the horse to circle the other way in a counter-bent circle, and back on the straight line, all while keeping their head to the side where I've asked it. The first step in training is always to get them following their nose with their body, but the next step in getting them more broke is getting them to where they can give their head without moving anything else. 

Remember, the reins should only control the direction of the face. The reins do not control the feet. You should never try to pull a horses feet with your hands. That's what your legs are for  If you feel a shoulder popping out somewhere or not following the head when you ask for it, you correct it by either slapping that shoulder with your foot or with the end of a rein, to get them to put it back in place.


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## bsms

enh817 said:


> I know you didn't ask for advice, so feel free to skip this...


I wouldn't think of skipping it! I'm a backyard rider of backyard horses, but I'm a well read backyard rider of backyard horses. Until a week ago, I had never had a full sized horse try to buck on me. When it happened, I reacted mostly from "instinct" - and instinct created by having read advice many times. I don't always choose to follow advice on a given horse, but a person's bag of tricks can never be too full.

I agree about Trooper. He's had a problem lately of flies on his belly, and he probably just thought all that sand was too good an opportunity to pass up. My youngest does 99% of her riding on Trooper (says she has no desire to ride another horse, although I have talked her into riding Cowboy and Bandit before). She also tends to daydream while riding...and Trooper is content with that. It was a struggle to get her to actually hold the reins while on a trail, and she still considers stirrups to be for mounting a horse. They are, in her opinion, strictly ornamental after that...:icon_rolleyes:

I agree about Bandit's bucking. I seriously doubt he ever got away with it. His previous owner probably weighs 220 in his socks, and Bandit is about 800 lbs. Bandit's bucks with me are not the serious "I'm going to get you off my back somehow" type of bucks I've read about. They are more like the "hopping mad" I've seen with horses even in the corral - the sort of "I'm ****ed but I don't know what to do about it" kind of hopping.

When Mia felt that way, she'd trot with a stiff-legged, jarring trot. I'd respond by just bouncing on her back until she decided to relax.

If Bandit feels cornered by the other horses in the corral, he'll rear. If I let him out of the corral, into the more open area of our back yard, he bucks for the fun of it. Both of the times he had 'bucked' - both in the last 3 days - have been little stiff hops that I think are 99% releasing frustration. However, he can find a better way of releasing frustration!

In one of my books, a lady writes about being thrown from their "beginner's horse" - the steady horse used for their newest riders. She thought about it afterward, and realized the beginners never asked the horse to do anything hard. The horse had been trained to a high level, but the beginners didn't ask him to work like that. They were riding him because he didn't mind carrying them, but he resented her pushing him to do more.

That may be what is happening with Bandit. He was genuinely scared about some human things - baby carriages, weed wackers, etc - at the beginning. I understand fear and respect it. But he isn't afraid now. He doesn't enjoy those things, but he isn't afraid. So I push him to keep going. And he does. But I think he kind of resents it and bottles it up inside. Then, when he REALLY wants to do something and I say no, it comes out.

It isn't a response to pain, a bad saddle or anything like that, so it remains unacceptable behavior. But after thinking about it (and your post), I'll probably just pull his head up immediately (so his little bucks can't get bigger) and then ignore it. Go back to Tom Roberts rule of "This profits you not" instead of punish. The same lady I mentioned also wrote a common reason a horse bucks is if it feels it is being unfairly punished. She said punishing little bucks can make it worse, while ignoring them tends to make them non-productive: "_remembers that it hasn't worked for him recently and chooses not to_". The more I'm around horses, the less I want to punish. The US Cavalry manual said few people, even experienced riders, knew how to punish a horse effectively, and that no punishment is better than bad punishment. 

So looking back, I think I overreacted yesterday. I should have just got his head up, asked him what he thought he was doing, and then gone about our business.

I won't try hinging. I'm not saying it is wrong, but a man has to know his limitations...and I'm pretty sure I would do it wrong. My horses are very good at following their noses, and that is very helpful to me. Even Mia on her bad days would do a fast 180 on a narrow trail if I pulled her nose around. That fact saved us from backing off a ledge more than once. 

I have been on a bolting horse who didn't follow his nose. It happened visiting a ranch about 35 years ago. The horse bolted, I got his nose turned all the way to my knee, and he didn't slow at all. So I ended up kicking his shoulder to turn him, which taught me that a horse may not follow his nose, but he must follow his shoulder!

I'll keep hinging in mind, and may try it a few years down the road. I find there are a lot of things good riders do that I just cannot do - yet. My riding position is improving on Bandit, but in fairness to me...I couldn't have done it on as spooky a horse as Mia. And even after she lost most of her spookiness, the fear of it remained in my mind and limited me from trying things. My position today is probably more secure than it was last spring, but I simply was afraid to experiment too much on Mia. She was a wonderful horse and I miss her. But by the time I traded her, I was the limiting factor holding her back, rather than her hindering me. She was ready to go on and learn more, but my fear preventing me from moving ahead and doing more on her.

For that, I have to thank Bandit and respect him. We may or may not "bond" over the next 6-9 months, but he is certainly a good horse and a good horse for me now. If I sell him someday, I think I'll still be grateful to him.

Late for a meeting...gotta go. Hope there are no spelling errors in this post!


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## enh817

I agree that it's better not to make a big deal out of the bucking, if he's not really trying to get you off. 
I never think about punishing a horse, that would imply that the horse had bad intentions thought out. I just don't believe horses think like that. I think all 'bad' behavior is just an attempt to find release, whether they're trying it for the first time or it's been successful in the past. 
It very well may be that Bandit never got anyone off, and I believe that assessment is correct on your part, as horses that have successfully gotten people off tend to buck with more confidence than you're describing and don't tend to think about stopping until the person is clear from their back or the rider has put a TON of pressure on them to get them stopped. BUT, even though he didn't throw someone, it still may have worked for him, in that the person riding quite asking him to do what they were asking when he through the fit, and then possibly avoided asking things of him in the future, that they were afraid would make him want to buck. Like in the example you gave, if you had gotten scared when he started bucking and then just let him go catch up to Trooper. That would've been enough to reinforce that behavior. 
So, I believe you're on the right path of thinking with this issue. Just make sure that bucking is never a way out of what you're doing, be keeping him on task and not releasing pressure until he quits, and that you reward him when you can feel him think about it, but choose not to and I think you'll get it gone in no time.

Give yourself a little more credit  I think you're capable of more than you think!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

My trainer has a saying “Ride the horse you have today”. In essence, it doesn’t matter that the horse has never before done _______ or that yesterday he could do ________.He is doing it or not doing it today, deal with it.

About 5 years ago, I was riding a “lesson” horse at a now former barn, I asked for a lope and got a crow hop (pig root etc). I persisted and got a 45 second four –off-the-floor, heels to the sky bucking fit. I managed to stay on but had no control at any time during the bucks (my bad).It scared the crap out of me because it completely caught me off guard as this was a horse that I had been riding for months who was used by nearly everyone, advanced beginner through advanced riders both western and English. The BO said he had only done that once before in the year they employed him….THAT DAY, that second though, he didn’t want to lope and expressed his opinion in no uncertain terms. I wasn't off balance and he had his head, he just didn't want to. We eventually got into the lope that day, but yep, you need to ride the horse you have in that moment. 

Since then I began training two “green-as-grass” horses for personal use. From that lesson horse I learned several things. 

Yes, while you ride the training not the “bond”, a bond is sometimes the only thing left standing behind you and an unfortunate accident. Sometimes training fails, sometimes the “bond” fails. When you have both integrated and working together, you have exceptionally fulfilling rides where you feel at one in thought and movement. 

With Oliver, there have been two times during his beginning training rides with me when he “almost” bucked. Both times he seemed to snap back into reality when upon feeling him round out his back, tense his shoulders and begin to lower his head, he heard me say “don’t even….” , as I then pulled his head up (we were riding in a bosal at the time and he could have easily pushed through it). The "training" wasn't there yet, I believe that is the result of “bonding” as he had indeed successfully bucked/reared with other more experienced riders he did not know, I believe he recognized my voice and thought better of it for whatever reason.

Now that his training has come along and he has settled into good habits, gained some experience and learned a few things, the “bond” has morphed into a type of babysitting (unexpected as I had him pegged as a ‘you take care of your end and I’ll take care of mine’ kind of horse). 

The other day, we were cantering out on the trails and I lost a stirrup. Out of habit, I looked down to put my foot back in and when he felt me do that, he dropped down to a gentle trot for me. I was off balance with my head to the side, he felt it and slowed. Before, in his lack of experience, he might not have known what “off balance” felt like (training) but because I am normally “on balance” he knew something was up and compensated for me (bond).

I ride his training, but I also simultaneously ride our “bond” (which I would define as an deeper kind of communication that comes with knowing each other’s quirks and habits) as well; the two have become inextricably integrated.

I know that when we are out on the trail and his head goes up in the air and he is looking, there REALLY is something there and not 600 feet away minding its own business. He knows I hear what he is telling me, we are both ready for it and he expects me to tell us what to do about it. He “talks”, I listen to what he has to say, and I decide. That is our deal. Sometimes he will still argue his point, but not often.

One without the other can work okay (like when I ride our Cowboy or a lesson horse), but there is no comparison to having both at your disposal. especially in a hairy situation.


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## bsms

I think what I wrote about "Ride the training" comes from having read this a few years back, by Deb Bennett:_"When a horse loves you, he will wait for you, even when he is busy saving his sorry backside._

_ When a horse does not love you, he will not wait for you at the bottom of the shy. For as you know, a shy consists of two parts: first, the horse executes a power-dive which brings the fore part of his chest close to the ground. Then, he pushes off sideways. So, the overall shape of a shy is generally "L" shaped._

_ Because the horse powers himself downwards, he goes down faster than he would fall if falling were merely what he was doing. You, however, are not power-diving but simply falling. Therefore, the horse will always arrive at the low point of the "L" before your butt does. And if the horse does not love you, and does not wait for you to arrive at this low point, but instead simply saves himself without caring about you, then he will already be moving sideways by the time you arrive and it is then a 100% guarantee that you and he will separate._

_ But when he loves you, then he'll wait for you before he goes sideways, so that when he's done with it, you will still be something like in the saddle._"​Having ridden quite a few spooks and sideways jumps and bolts, that just chaps my butt! It does not in any way describe what I've seen. I would sum up what I've often seen pushed by "Natural Horsemanship" as "Establish a bond so you can ride safely". I think the real order is "Ride safely (from the horse's perspective) to establish a bond".

BTW - I know of no way a horse can "power dive". In terms of going down, only gravity can move their center of gravity down. Going down faster than gravity seems mechanically impossible to me.

When Mia bolted, the most important thing I could do was remind her I was there. Calling her name softly. When an ear flicked back, her mind had returned and we were a few strides from a stop. Until then, pretty much nothing worked reliably. She just forgot I was there.

And a horse can think well of you in an arena, and not be at all convinced you are competent to keep it safe in the real world. That is why, with Bandit, I've tried to take the time to teach him that when I say something is not scary...I'm right. I think that is why I increasingly can do it from the saddle. It is because when I've dismounted to show him, I've always been right. I've got a track record building up. We're now mostly working on it from the saddle. But if I need to dismount in the future, I will - to show him that I know what I am talking about. But to do that, I need to saddle up and ride. I can't do it with foam noodles...

A well trained horse should already know that. It should accept that humans, the generic human, knows best. A horse like that will give its best effort for someone it likes, but will be safe to ride by just about anyone. And that is my goal with every horse: anyone can ride him safely. If not, then he is no better than green broke, regardless of how many miles he has been ridden or what cues he knows.

The French proverb at Samur was "_The horse should believe God is on his back, and the Devil is at his belly_" - meaning the rider was all knowing, and any resistance would be spurred viciously. For my part, I want to drop the "Devil at his belly" part. I understand why it worked for the cavalry, but I'm not in the cavalry and I don't plan to go to war - although I have been shot at while on horseback (with Cowboy).

I also want the horse to talk to me. If he is uncertain, I want him to be free to let me know. But if I tell him it is OK so press, then I want him to press on. That attitude is far more important to me than collection, or sidepassing, or flying lead changes. And it may be that if I reach that point with Bandit, we will bond. If he becomes a very willing, eager and trusting horse, I might like him better and he might feel free to like me better. 

When I was in the military, we used to joke that "shared misery creates bonds". There is more than a little truth to the joke...:think:


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## Sharpie

I am not sure that is a joke. Just telling the truth with a smirk in my experience. While I agree with you about the mechanics of falling (power-diving?), I think I see some truth in the meaning of your quote.

Some horses act towards people such that when something bad happens, they "take them with." This is my horse with me. He's taken off, bolted at a run in a random direction, spooked, and all manner of things. But he's always 'taken me with'. At no point has he made an effort to get rid of me or fight me as part of the problem. Yes, he was leaving, but he was happy for "us" to leave as a herd and has momentarily tempered his reaction to facilitate that.

Some horses have the opposite train of thought. When scary things happen, humans compounded the problem (from the horse POV) in their experience so they know they need to dump the human in order to escape the demon together. Spin, buck/rear, bolt, etc. Surely this is caused by rushed or improper training, but it happens none-the-less.

It sounds like Mia was somewhere in between. You were not "part of the problem" for her, but neither was she going to take an extra moment to make sure you were coming along too.


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## bsms

I think Mia just lost her mind and forgot. But there was not an ounce of "mean" in her. She was glad when she found out I was still there. The one fall I had, she took off running. But when she heard me cussing her name, she spun around and sprinted back to me. As I struggled to my feet, she put her head next to my chest, shaking, waiting for me to take care of her. Since at that point I needed her help to stand, I was glad she didn't realize how much I was hurting.

I'm slowly learning there are more horses than I've met. I haven't had much experience with a horse who really wanted to get rid of me. I know they exist, but I tend to forget about them because I haven't met them. It makes me hesitant to post sometimes, because the horses I've met are different than the horses some people have owned and need to work with. Much of what I did with Mia worked or didn't work because she was the horse she was.

Bandit isn't nearly as smart as Mia. That is good for me in some ways. It also hurts, sometimes. Mia was far too smart to have any business being ridden by a beginner rider...but darn it! That intelligence was a part of what I adored in her. You could feel her thinking as we went down a street or trail. It could be overpowering at times, but there was never any doubt that BOTH of us were out for a ride.

I used to joke that at the end of a ride, she'd hand me a cigarette and ask if it was as good for me as it was for her. I really respect Bandit for who he is, and he's a darn good horse for me...but I miss the twinkle in Mia's eye, if you know what I mean. 

And darn it! I hate it when I get dirt in my eyes. Makes me look weepy & silly. Old guys shouldn't look like that!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

bsms said:


> A well trained horse should already know that. It should accept that humans, the generic human, knows best.


 I agree, but unfortunately there are those who were _not_ trained well initially and learned that only *some* humans can be trusted to know best and in the future require each human to prove themselves worthy, at least for a time while they re-learn about humans as a general category. 

Horses learn by experience. If the general experience is that humans=pain, inconsistency, bad decisions, unfair punishment, then that will be their overall view until they gather enough experience to override that conclusion and they will act accordingly (stimulus-response). It is one of the possible pitfalls of owning horses you did not breed, raise and train yourself. Put someone on a horse with consistently bad experiences, who proves the old theory correct and you are reinforcing the horse's old beliefs. 

I "kind of" understand what I think Bennett was trying to say about the gravity thing. I once rode a horse that when it spooked, moved so quickly out from under me that I swear I floated in mid-air briefly like a cartoon long enough to think "this is going to hurt when I hit dirt". I don't think though that is a "love" issue. It simply is the way the horse moves. IMO that is the responsibility of the rider to learn "how a horse spooks" and then make the adjustments, not a reasonable expectation of the horse to adjust its spook to the human. :wink:


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## bsms

I agree it FEELS like the horse is powering down out from beneath you. But in terms of mechanics, I can "power" my arm down because my center of gravity doesn't move. My arm is moving with my CoG as the pivot.

A horse's center of gravity is roughly at the withers, so unless there is something overhead that it can push against...

A horse can power sideways, though.

My main objection is the 'if your horse loves you, he'll take care of you' idea. There is an element of truth there, but the bigger truth is that horses count on us to protect them, not the other way around. My bond with Mia wasn't doubted by any who watched us, but my SAFETY riding her sure was!


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## phantomhorse13

Once you ride an ayrab, its hard to go with anything else. But I may be biased. :wink:

I think, however, you have the right plan with Bandit. Ride. See how things go. Give you both a chance to get to know one another. It could be that nobody in Bandit's past was interested in bonding with HIM, so he doesn't even have that kind of thing on his radar. For some, work is very different than play and even at play, some people aren't looking for a _partner_ necessarily.

Every horse has lessons they can teach us.. and hopefully vice versa!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

bsms said:


> I agree it FEELS like the horse is powering down out from beneath you.


 That was my point. She did a very poor job of explaining that feeling. And yes, also I think that saying if your horse "loves" you they take you with them in a spook is also a bad assignment of motive. 

If they "loved" you they wouldn't rattle your nerves by spooking in the first place! :thumbsup: Silly horses!


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## bsms

Had an interesting "trail" ride today. After 2 days of rain in southern Arizona, and as our summer monsoon just slides seamlessly into our winter monsoon, a friend from church came out at 9 AM to go for a ride. Since it was muddier than normal, we decided to stick mostly to the pavement today.

We assigned Cowboy to our friend. She is 64, hasn't ridden in a few years, but has ridden a variety of horses over her life...just not often. We warned her that Cowboy sometimes tries to take advantage of his rider, but on the plus side? He likes to go out with the other horses. She preferred Cowboy to Trooper, and wanted to try the Australian-style saddle instead of the Abetta western one. 

We eventually got most of the mud off the horses, and she climbed a bit slowly aboard little 13 hand Cowboy. Did Cowboy buck a little? Did he try to move? Nope...stayed stock still. She took him for a lap in our little arena, which Cowboy hates. But Cowboy was a perfect gentleman.

Hmmm...At least one of one of Cowboy's six previous owners was a good rider. You can tell because he knows stuff and can be ridden well when he isn't fussing. And one of the six was an old woman on a ranch whose health was failing. Cowboy was her final horse, and she rode him until her health would no longer allow her to ride. Did he remember her? Are there some happy memories of going out with an older and understanding lady? Hmmm?

It quickly became apparent that Cowboy was trying to take care of his rider. Not a moment of fuss. No bother. If he needed to trot to stay up with Bandit, he did so - but in a jog that we didn't know he had in him! Not his "I'll make you pee blood" trot. A bouncy jog, but a jog never-the-less. He DID enjoy stopping at times to grab a few mouthfuls, but our friend didn't blink an eye. She said he'd stop in a moment and rejoin the others, and Cowboy did...jogging to catch up. She also commented on what a responsive horse he was. "_He doesn't need to be told much, just give him a hint and he takes care of it_".










Yeah, he's still dusty even after a good effort to clean the mud off!​ 
One might fault her equitation for position (heels), but if equitation is getting your horse to work willingly with you, her equitation was excellent!

Bandit got nervous a few times, but it was the "_I'm uncomfortable_" type of nervousness, not "_I'm really scared_". For that, I'd just urge him forward. One time he balked, and I popped him in the gut to get him going...but he went. We trotted a bunch of times when he was uncomfortable, and that seemed to help him calm and focus.

I posted this on another thread, but will add it here so I can find it if I want to, and because it pertains to how Bandit and I are approaching things:



bsms said:


> "_If she gets nervous about something, I ask for self-control first, and once we have achieved that, I cue her to a faster gait (trot) which is a great way to get her concentrating. But first we must control our nervous reaction, so the trot ISN'T an escape from the scary stimulus in any way._"​I've tried this with Bandit a few times lately, and been pleased with the results. If he is a little nervous and tries to trot without being asked, I slow him, we do a circle, then we move forward and I ask him for a trot.
> 
> I think of it as threat rings, probably because I used to be an electronic warfare officer dealing with surface to air missile sites. There is a threat ring around a surface to air missile. It isn't a perfect circle because it is easier to shoot someone coming straight at you than someone on the side, and a target moving away from you has to be run down - which is tough.
> 
> I think horses instinctively know that. They obviously don't want to go straight at a predator. If they are going past one, then having a little speed will make any escape easier. And it is obviously tough for a cougar to run down a horse from behind.
> 
> I don't think a trash can is likely to EVER run down a horse, but Bandit seems to understand the trade-off between distance and speed: At a walk, he wants more distance between him and a threat. At a trot, he'll cut it closer since he's already moving faster. But I want to be the one telling him to do it.
> 
> This nailed it: _
> 
> "*I ask for self-control first, and once we have achieved that*, I cue [him] to a faster gait (trot) which is a great way to get [him] concentrating..._"


http://www.horseforum.com/member-journals/macarena-flamenca-2015-a-536297/page10/#post8186626

If he was AFRAID, it would not work very well. But when he is just uncomfortable, it seems to help. His mind is still engaged, so telling him, "_I know you can do it, but we can trot if it helps you feel better_" keeps it a learning experience for him.

Meanwhile, Cowboy chugged along. We took a dirt road that brought us close to a paved road where folks were doing 60. When some motorcyclists went by on the paved road, "*** - *** -***!", Cowboy did startle and hopped a little forward. Our friend didn't wobble, and just sympathized, "_I know, those motorcycles just aren't natural, are they!_" By that time, I think Cowboy would have died from shame if his rider fell off.

Trooper took care of my youngest. She tends to daydream a bit. Maybe a lot. So Trooper stayed alert, but calm. At least one of them was thinking about THIS world:








​ 
We went back through the housing area, where Bandit has his most problems, then took a shortcut through the desert. Nothing strenuous, and Bandit and Cowboy chugged along. The rain had laid bare some extra rocks, and Bandit had a couple of stumbles on a few patches, but his feet are almost trail ready. He was kind of tense for the first 45 minutes, but the second 45 minutes...he had all the boogers out of his brain. Calm, relaxed, willing. I've debated trying to sell him, but he & I might make a good team as he starts to relax, and as I start to gain confidence in him.

As usual, Bandit led. Cowboy followed, while Trooper brought up the rear:








​
90 minutes seemed like plenty for a 64 year old woman who rarely rides. Seemed like plenty to my back, which has never fully recovered from one of Mia's early bolts, which was the only time I was dumped. I took some Motrin for my lower right back when we got home.

But our friend DID make it off of Cowboy's 13 hands, and they made a fine team. I had nearly cancelled last night, and more rain at 3 AM didn't encourage me. But it cleared, and we had brilliant sunshine, no wind, 65 degrees, horses who were happy to get out of the mud, and riders who each matched the personality of their horse (that would be a little tense and worried for me...poor Bandit, it takes ME 30-45 minutes to get the boogers out of MY brain too!)

First time riding in 3 years - success! Happy horse & Happy rider:










:loveshower::loveshower::loveshower:​


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## smrobs

I just love little Cowboy. Seriously, if he ever needs a new home, let me know.


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## enh817

Good man, Cowboy! 

And it sounds like Bandit had a good ride as well. Just continue doing what you're doing, helping him deal with his hang-ups and I'm sure he'll continue to let down


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## Bondre

It sounds like you all had a good ride! I'm glad to hear that you and Bandit are shaking down together better and starting to make a team. As you well know, it takes time to build a relationship with a horse, and the more you put into it, the more they will give too. And I can see that you are putting a lot into Bandit and have already raised his confidence a ton.



bsms said:


> When some motorcyclists went by on the paved road, "*** - *** -***!", Cowboy did startle and hopped a little forward. Our friend didn't wobble, and just sympathized, "_I know, those motorcycles just aren't natural, are they!_" By that time, I think Cowboy would have died from shame if his rider fell off.
> 
> Trooper took care of my youngest. She tends to daydream a bit. Maybe a lot. So Trooper stayed alert, but calm. At least one of them was thinking about THIS world:


Just love the way you describe things! Your friend sounds a very empathetic person.... and your daughter DOES look as if her head is in the clouds 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms

Bandit finally had a chance to be seen by a dentist. The wolf teeth I thought he had were just very small canines. HOWEVER, his rear molars were in such sad shape that they were cutting his cheeks, leaving ulcers. She had to rinse his mouth out because (she said) horses like that keep some hay between the cheek and teeth for hours to cushion their cheek from the sharp edges of their tooth. In this case, on both sides.

Bandit was great about it. He waited patiently while she rinsed out his mouth (to get all the hay out, several hours after he had finished eating). She opened his mouth and filed and filed and filed, and knocked one of the sharp points out (it was perhaps 1/8" or larger).

She did say his teeth were consistent with his age (7). But she agreed that no one had probably worked on his teeth before. Happily, she felt it would only take hours for Bandit to realize his teeth were no longer gouging his cheeks. She said he might end up eating less, now that he can chew it more completely.

I tend to be cheap where vets are concerned, but I do like to have a dentist come out and check their teeth every year or two. Cowboy & Trooper were looked at in the spring, as was Mia. She had a fair bit of difficulty with Mia, but she agreed that much of her problems were probably that she was too high strung to live in a corral and never get to run hard. She also thought Bandit had a very kind eye, and he certainly behaved well. She also cleaned the sheath - no bean & only a little bit of gunk. Some horses don't have much problem that way, and Trooper and Cowboy are both examples of horses who don't need much help. It seems Bandit fits that category as well...it was pretty clean before she started.

I also talked to her about bitting Bandit. She said I had the right idea in raising the bit some past "the corner of the mouth" because otherwise it would hit the canine (the little one I thought was a wolf tooth). She gave a name for Bandit's mouth, but I forget what she said. However, she said while the corner is very low on his mouth, that type of mouth actually has a lot of loose lip. She hooked her finger in and pulled the lip WAY up, and said it didn't bother Bandit because he has a lot of lip...it just hangs low.

Her recommendation was to raise the bit another hole on each side from where I was putting it. "It will look awful, but if anyone complains, tell them Bandit's dentist recommended it." She said with his very loose lips, he'd be happier with the corners pulled up into wrinkles than he would on any chance of it banging his teeth. And that makes sense.

So we skipped riding today. Hopefully tomorrow, with a mouth that feels better.


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## bsms

Rode Bandit for a short ride today - had to keep it short because my wife & daughter were willing to go riding with me, but only if I kept it under an hour. My wife had ridden Cowboy a week ago, so this was two times riding in under 10 days for her. She rides about a dozen times a year...so I figured I'd take it.

She brought the camera, and there were a few pictures of Bandit & I, using our small Abetta saddle. It feels a little awkward to me, but it gives plenty of grip to the thigh. Three pictures, all while turning around to wait for the others. Bandit does NOT lollygag on a trail (or road):








​ 







​ 







​ 
It was only 70 degrees today, so I wore my vest for warmth. I figure that ought to make those in colder climates hate me!

I was being directive in all 3 pictures because Bandit doesn't really like circling back to pick up stragglers. He'd rather wait with barely concealed impatience, and then resume. Probably 90% of our riding today was done with one hand on the reins. Bandit is starting to neck rein well...except for when he is not in the mood.

Nothing exciting, but that is a good thing. Bandit was alert, but there were no hesitations and no spooks or startles. He is gaining confidence. I've joked that I don't know how to ride a horse who doesn't spook, but Bandit is headed in that direction. There were times where he hesitated just a little. I'd give him slack and tell him he could figure it out, and he would then push forward without any urging from me. That is what I really wanted to see - a horse gain confidence and start trusting himself without my needing to push or urge him.

I also like how he looks around as we ride. I figure a horse who is constantly looking around, but who is not hesitating or spooking, is a horse who is enjoying the ride.

One thing odd I figured out:

Bandit has steep shoulders. I used to put the saddle closer to his shoulders because I had read (on the Nikkel's website, one that I love for info on western saddle fitting) that the shoulder would slide underneath. But with Bandit, it really doesn't. His shoulders are steep and long, and he stretches out...and the shoulder has been hitting the saddle.

He has an uncommonly level back:








​ 
so I can get away with placing the saddle more like what they say to do with an English saddle. I put the leading edge of the saddle a few fingers behind the shoulder, and he can then move his front without any interference. That wasn't the way it worked with Mia, but it really seems to help Bandit move in a more balanced fashion.

The saddle does not go anywhere on his back. By the time we got back, the cinch was plenty loose - I could put 5 fingers between Bandit's side and the cinch - but the saddle didn't shift at all. That sounds pretty uncommon, but it is a good thing. But his trotting was smoother and his turns more fluid. I started trying it a week ago, and it has really helped.

And here is how his feet look after 5 months without shoes. This is his problem foot - and yes, I pulled the stone out just after taking the pictures:


















​
Compare that to earlier this summer:


















​
In June, the groove of the frog was about 1/8 inch deep. It is now pushing 3/4 inch.

So while neither Bandit, his feet nor I are anything to boast about, the trend is our friend. He's going to turn into a pretty confident horse, I think. And it is much easier to be a confident rider when on a confident horse!


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## bsms

Started what was supposed to be a short post on the over 50 thread, but my keyboard bolted and ran away with my fingers. Since it has a lot to do with Bandit, I'll post the end result here as well:



bsms said:


> A couple of guys from our church came out yesterday to ride. One guy is about 6'3", and has ridden a lot in his life. His friend is a couple inches taller :eek_color: and hadn't ridden. So the guy who has ridden a lot took Bandit. 800 lb Bandit with a 6'3" guy. That meant Trooper got his friend...maybe 6'5"? With the stirrups full down on our 16" Circle Y, the guy still looked scrunched up. My youngest, who turns 18 today, rounded out the bunch on Cowboy.
> 
> A couple of big military pilots are not the sort to ride circles in a little arena, so they all went out to the desert. I suggested an area that has limited paved roads getting there, and that they then just wander around.
> 
> They got back 2 hours later, all smiles. OK, the two larger geldings looked tired. Not sore, but tired. The new rider has now walked & trotted. They tried a canter, and the new rider & pilot agreed his experience mirrored my first time cantering - it was "flying in close formation" with the horse!
> 
> The more experienced rider agreed Bandit had a lot more "spunk" than Trooper. My youngest later told me he had tried to push Bandit past something that Bandit was afraid of, and Bandit bucked enough for his rider to end up hugging Bandit's neck for a moment. Then he remembered what I had told him about allowing Bandit some freedom to pick his way past scary things. So he asked Bandit to turn and angle AWAY, and then they walked between the cactus, keeping an extra 30 feet between them and the scary thing (and none of the humans were sure WHAT was scary, only that SOMETHING in a certain spot bothered Bandit a lot).
> 
> But once past, Bandit accepted it wasn't really scary since whatever it was didn't give chase. And he rode for the next hour without hesitation. I don't think horses tend to think "win-lose". Maybe lesson horses, or horses who are sour. But this sounds like what I've seen before - a horse who was being asked to give more than he could give at that moment, but who could give a little less and would give it if his rider didn't insist on "winning"."The French say, when speaking of a horse that shows restiveness, "il se defend" - he defends himself...There is much truth in this expression, and it is one that riders should constantly bear in mind, *for insubordination is most commonly the result of something having been demanded from the horse that it either did not know how to do or was unable to perform*..." - On Seats and Saddles, by Francis Dwyer, Major of Hussars in the Imperial Austrian Service (1868)
> 
> Yes, I love that quote!​However, I think it was good for the horses. They responded well to riders who had confidence - the confidence of youth. At 57, I'm a lot more cautious.
> 
> But in my 20s, having only been on a horse a few times, I was given the chance to take a green-broke horse on a two day trip in the mountains...and took it. At 20 or so, it didn't occur to me that someone who barely knew how to get on a horse might not be the best match for a green broke horse in the mountains of Utah. So we did it...and both horse and rider did fine, since we didn't have any trainers or instructors to tell us we couldn't do it.
> 
> At 57, I think I'll continue to wear a helmet and sometimes chose the easier path. As King Solomon said:"A simple man believes anything, but a prudent man gives thought to his steps." - Proverbs 14:15
> 
> "Plans fail for lack of counsel, but with many advisers they succeed." - Proverbs 15:22
> 
> "Make plans by seeking advice; if you wage war, obtain guidance." - Proverbs 20:18​When I was young, I trusted luck. But as I was told in the military, everyone has a bag of luck, and they don't know how much is in it. You also have a bag of skill, and you know what is in it and can add to it. You can trust your bag of skill or your bag of luck...but if you use the second bag too often, you will someday come up empty!
> 
> BTW - I rubbed the geldings' backs this morning. No sign of soreness or tenderness. They both will get the day off today. But give them credit: they both gave a good effort and showed no "quit"! I speculated earlier on the possibility of selling Bandit, but he's growing on me. He may not match Mia's personality, but there is a lot to respect in a horse who gives an honest effort, AND who is also willing to tell a 6'3" rider to go to hell!
> 
> This was the smaller guy on Trooper about a month ago, for perspective. He rode the more slender Bandit yesterday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​


FWIW, that was kind of how I did my first riding, in my 20s. Got about 5 minutes of instruction, then got on and rode a good-natured horse. Did a little riding then, but life and work got in the way and I didn't get on a horse again until 50.


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## bsms

Posted this on another thread, but I'll expand a bit here:



tinyliny said:


> I haven't read the whole thread.
> 
> but, are you saying that your horse was so nervous because he had been punished every time he spooked before? and when he spooked, and you did nothing in the way of a punishment, he gained confidence?
> 
> 
> I remember earlier in my riding journey i was riding a hrose who would periodically spook and do the 180, and he'd gotten me off 5 times! the owner of the barn said, "well did you spank him when he did that? he knows better than to do that".
> 
> i did not spank him, and I am not sure if that is a useful response. h m m ..





bsms said:


> I'll throw this out FWIW, since I've adjusted my position on it:
> 
> Mia was a very spooky horse, but she was an utterly HONEST spooky horse. If she balked at something ahead, she was afraid. She was sufficiently 'willing' that she would forge ahead on 'uncomfortable', 'nervous', 'not entirely sure', etc. If she put on the brakes, or more frequently, if she jumped sideways or spun around, she was scared.
> 
> And a scared horse doesn't get better by hitting them for being scared.
> 
> Enter Bandit. After 6 months riding him...he's a different horse. He will fake being scared when he is really just _'uncomfortable', 'nervous', 'not entirely sure'_, etc. He also has times when he is SCARED - but when he is genuinely scared, he's more responsive than when he is just balking. Genuinely scared, he WANTS his rider to take charge. Balking...he's trying to take charge.
> 
> There is a different feel to his balks. In some ways, they imitate his fear - but he does the outward signs without the stiffening of his back, and there is something a little different about how he moves his head. It is hard to describe.
> 
> But when he does that, he needs to be pressured harder, not given relief. Because he isn't really afraid, and he is still entirely capable of learning and thinking - he's just rebelling.
> 
> Mia sometimes got ****ed at me, but I never felt like she was truly rebelling. Bandit will try to get out of doing what I want just because he doesn't want it. It isn't fear and it isn't 'you hurt my feelings'. Just a case of I don't want to and if it looks like I'm afraid them maybe he won't push me.
> 
> I'm thinking of switching to riding him in my old Aussie-style saddle. It fits him well enough, and my slick western saddle is excellent for a relaxed trail ride, but not so good for getting in a fight. It has a little too much room, a "slick seat" and a "slick fork", a "slick" is not what I need on a rebellious horse. With the Aussie-style saddle, I can get my legs around Bandit and tell him I'm going where he is going, but I'll make him very unhappy if he goes where I don't want to go.
> 
> It has me missing the two purebred Arabian mares I've owned. Both had their faults, and I can ride Bandit in places I could not have ridden Mia, but I miss the "_Oooohhhhh, what are WE doing TOGETHER today?_" attitude of the mares.


I bounce back and forth on keeping Bandit. I'm pretty sure he'll turn into a good trail horse. He is already a better "trail horse" than Mia ever was. Going out alone isn't his favorite, but he's starting to do it. With another horse, once you get him away from the houses and into the desert, he's pretty willing, forward, likes to take the lead and move out.

He's certainly not a push button horse, but a push button horse isn't really what I want anyways. I don't know if this will make sense, but I'll give it a try:

Mia and Lilly were 'people'. They had 4 legs and they thought like horses, but they were very interactive with their rider, with humans in general, and most of the time I think they enjoyed being ridden - because they enjoyed the interaction with the human.

Bandit and the other 2 geldings we own are 'horses'. Yes, they have personalities. They are decent riding horses. But if someone would invent a machine that would provide the corral with food, water and clean it 3 times a day, the 3 geldings would be quite happy.

They don't get pouty or have their feelings hurt the way Mia & Lilly would sometimes. But it feels as though they view riding as "work", while Mia & Lilly viewed it as "fun".

Bandit has already taught me a lot. He'll go places and do things Mia couldn't handle. He'll meet me at the gate because he wants to get out and stretch his legs. But green-broke Lilly and nervous Mia both seemed to enjoy being with humans in a way the 3 geldings don't. The 3 geldings are more practical, but not as much fun.


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## gottatrot

I think there are mare people and gelding people. Perhaps you are a mare person. 
Personally, I love riding a good gelding and I find them enjoyable once in awhile. But for my day to day horse life I prefer mares. My best friend, on the other hand bought a mare and decided she is a gelding person. She just doesn't bond as well with mares, finding them difficult and moody. I think geldings are just too "flat."

All horses are great, in my book. But I find mares more interesting and get more out of the relationship.


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## bsms

^^ I think you are right. I don't think I will ever "click" with Bandit like I did with Mia. But to give the horse credit, he rides well. He'll sometimes balk, sometimes get scared, has even been known to spin or buck a little...but those can be solved if I ride him consistently. He's teaching me more than I'm teaching him, but I think he'll work out to be a level-headed, trustworthy (but slightly independent) trail horse.

At that point, I'll have to decide what I want out of riding. With Mia, I rode for the pleasure of her company. With Bandit, I can already ride him in situations I was never able to ride Mia...but we don't interact nearly as much.

Ideally, I'd like both. It may boil down to keeping my eyes open for an Arabian mare who can handle trail riding better than Mia could...and making a decision then. There are not many Arabian mares around here, and a lot of Arabian breeders wouldn't want to sell a horse to me for just "trail riding". So I guess I'll have to wait and see.


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## phantomhorse13

bsms said:


> There are not many Arabian mares around here, and a lot of Arabian breeders wouldn't want to sell a horse to me for just "trail riding".


No sure exactly where you are, but I think you may be pleasantly surprised when you are ready to shop. Arizona has a very active distance riding community, so there are certainly "just" trail riding horses around. Ironically, my newest arab is Arizona-bred (Al-Marah).

A quick search on Dreamhorse gave me this one and this one.. and that is only one site! When its time, you will find your horse. Meanwhile, enjoy what Bandit is teaching you.


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## bsms

^^. Thanks. Didn't know about Dreamhorse. Realistically, I need to spend the next 5-6 months riding Bandit and working with him...then see. We both need more miles.


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## bsms

Posted this on the over 50 thread, but it has everything to do with how Bandit and I are progressing, and says a bit about Trooper too:



bsms said:


> I did get a very short ride in on Bandit. My DIL was over, and she wanted to ride, so we took Bandit and Trooper out. We hurried to get going since the winds were supposed to pick up. It takes me 15-30, and more like 30, minutes to loosen up my back and legs and relax in the saddle. But since the DIL was here, we headed out immediately.
> 
> 5 minutes later, the front arrived. Winds went from 5 mph to 25 mph. Bandit was very tense after being cooped up for a week in his corral, and my tense legs and back did nothing to help. Someone had parked a boat in their drive, and the tarp covering it was threatening to come off - with loud cracks and snaps. A neighbor's flag was snapping so hard it sounded like it would come off. Someone had put 2 inflated snowmen in their yard, and the gusts caused these 4' tall ghosts to whip back and forth.
> 
> It seemed like every 100' was another strange thing put in a yard for the sole purpose of scaring a horse. Bandit started trotting like he was in a dressage test, with a very vertical movement that didn't cover much ground. My tight hips and legs did not respond well, so I brought him back to a walk. And bless his pea-picking heart, he walked! Trooper had already fallen behind, so it felt like we were out alone. After 5 minutes of that, I turned him back for home.
> 
> I have to give Bandit credit, though. He was very tense, very unhappy - but he went forward without a single stop. We may have pranced up and down, but he didn't try to turn, spin away, or scoot off the pavement into someone's yard. Turning around meant going back past the angry ghosts, and when we got there some metal was apparently bending in the wind, making a groaning sound. I've got to admit - it made the ghosts SOUND like ghosts!
> 
> But bless Bandit's nervous heart, he kept moving forward. I slipped my legs forward to act like a fence on either side of his shoulder, and he kept going forward. That was a real improvement, and it came after a week off.
> 
> When we got back, I unsaddled him but my DIL wanted to ride Trooper around the block. So I led Bandit while she rode. Bandit kept his head next to my shoulder and walked with surprising calmness back past the ghosts, tarps, flags, etc. After we went about 400 yards, my DIL stopped and got off because even Trooper was acting nervous - and she rides about 6 times a year. 6 times a year means she isn't ready to handle a nervous horse!
> 
> We walked the two horses around. There is a yard with a 120 lb dog (my guess) who always barks from behind his fence. But the gate had blown open, and he came out. After barking along side us, he started darting at the horses' feet. Both Bandit and Trooper, to their credit, stayed alert but calm. When he got too close to Trooper, Troop got in a glancing blow.
> 
> Then I got ****ed, so I turned and charged the dog. Problem: I was leading Bandit. Not a problem: Bandit charged with me. 120 lb dog decided to run hard for his yard, and he stayed in it while we left. Barking, but barking from behind the safety of his fence.
> 
> Not much later, we were back and the horses went into their corrals. DIL volunteered to clean the corrals, and I thanked her for the "Christmas present".
> 
> Tomorrow is supposed to be close to record cold with lots of wind, so probably no riding tomorrow. But I may walk Bandit around.
> 
> So it was a very short ride, and then a walk...but I was very happy with Bandit's effort. I was way too tense, but that is a fact of life for me. I'll always need some time to work the kinks out before I can relax into a saddle. But he tried hard, and kept going in the face of what to him had to look like genuine threats. He *tried*, which is all I can ask of a horse.
> :loveshower:​


​ 
I sometimes miss Mia and blame Bandit for not being Mia...but there is no way at all that Mia could have made it out today. She would have gone into blind panic even before the ghosts, and certainly afterward. She would have LED ok, but she would have turned into a nightmare the moment the wind hit.

Bandit wasn't a Steady Eddie, but he never panicked and never quit. When I led him, he stuck by my side and didn't act upset at all - other than to keep his nose next to my shoulder...as in inches away. I've got to admit, there is something to be said for a horse who is very unhappy about going forward, and who has reason to be unhappy, but who keeps moving forward when asked! And he did it from the saddle as well. He did today what Mia could not have done after 7 years. That is something I can respect!


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## Bondre

Good on Bandit! All those Christmas ghosts were quite a test for him. All your work together is clearly paying off, and he now knows that the world around him may seem strange but that he'll be safe with you. Plus he charged the dog with you! He wanted to help you keep the herd safe. You can tell he's got Arab blood in him ;-) 
:clap: :clap:

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms

Finally got a short ride in on Bandit this morning. I think it is the 4th ride since 1 Dec, and the first since Christmas.

Everything thru mounting went as normal. He then walked about 20 feet...and decided it was time to buck. Pulled his head up hard and rough, kept it up until he stopped (and they were mild bucks, he isn't good at it), then pulled his head around and asked him WTH. About a minute later, he tried again. Some result. I think we did 4-5 of those in the first 5 minutes.

He also decided to thrash his head around and fight the bit. Each time he did, I kept the pressure on the bit until he stopped - then slack reins. Asked for a trot, and for the next 15 minutes or so we trotted around our little arena. When he behaved, I rode in two point and slack reins. When he didn't, I rode in tight reins with a heavy seat.

It took about 5 minutes for him to give up fighting the bit and acting ****y, then 10 minutes or so of increasingly relaxed trotting. I took him out on the pavement briefly...went past some garbage cans without noticing them, which was good. When we were back in the arena, we trotted a few laps, then walked and did figure 8s, tight turns into the fence, etc.

Had to quit after 30 minutes because I was running out of time. Won't be able to ride him for several more days due to other commitments in town during the daylight hours. But at least he FINISHED moving soft and responding well. After the 5 minutes of head-thrashing, he neck reined exceptionally well the rest of the ride. His trot was more relaxed and he used his back more than normal, which was also good.

I think he just had too much energy to burn after several weeks cooped up in a corral in wet, cold and windy weather. Guess I "should" have lunged him, but I honestly would rather just deal with it from his back. He sucks pretty bad at bucking, which seems to be something he does when he is feeling frustrated.

But once he got the "You're Not the Boss of Me!" boogers out of his brain, he settled and rode well. Mia never tried bucking with me during 7 years of riding, but Bandit will give it a shot sometimes. Not well, but he'll make a show of it.

But Tom Robert's rules of "*This will profit you; this will profit you not*" and "*Quiet Persistence*" seemed to work. Trot relaxed, working with me = two point and slack reins. Get ****y, get a deep seat and directive rider. Buck, get your face pulled up and pressure in the mouth - not anger, but not letting him get his head down and not trying to protect his mouth, either. The moment he relaxed: slack reins and two point. Rinse, repeat until he was moving smooth and calm - and where I asked him to go.

Also: unlike Mia, he calmed down well. Mia would have spun up and been tight as a drum for the entire ride. I don't mind some fussing if, in return, he'll calm quick.

And it isn't fair for me to expect him to stand around in a corral for 2+ weeks and not have some **** in him - or "boogers in the brain" as I like to call it, since it ends when he starts snorting and blowing hard. The first 10 minutes were a lot of work today, but the remaining 20 or so went quite well. Wish I had more time to ride, but I've got some short term employment that is going to take up much of the daylight hours.


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## bsms

This involves no riding, but it is an important update on Bandit's progress:

The 3 horses are FINALLY sharing one corral without fuss, and even with some mutual interaction.

A few days ago, Bandit banged up his chest and shoulder charging the dividing corral panels. Since the ground was dry, I decided they would either learn to mix or Bandit would be sold. It has been 8 months, so they have had plenty of time around each other.

This time, it finally clicked. They have been mixed for several days. When I go out to feed pellets in the morning, Bandit claims the first bucket and the other two let him do so. But later, Cowboy will come over and take Bandit's bowl, and Bandit allows it. If Trooper decides to take someone's food, both of the other horses will allow it. It means it will be harder to feed Bandit extra pellets, but he works at eating his hay flakes with a lot more enthusiasm than the others - so maybe what he loses in pellets, he'll make up for in extra hay.

In any case, when Cowboy was finishing off Bandit's pellets this morning, Bandit hung around and near the end even got a few bites out of the bucket along with Cowboy. Bandit has always been the socially awkward one, but he seems to be learning. Cowboy has also figured out that he can be dominant to Bandit UNLESS he acts too aggressive, in which case Bandit will turn around and fight...so it behooves Cowboy to be a relaxed dominant horse. If it becomes a fight, Cowboy (13 hands vs 15 hands) loses. 

Apart from eating pellets, the 3 now seem content to get along. That might end up making Bandit more herd-bound, but I'll take that in exchange for him being able to share a full corral with the other two. I think it will help him mentally and emotionally to interact with the others horses 24/7, since they FINALLY are doing so with little fuss and anger.

However, there ARE 2 panels still up, in an L-shape at the shelters. That is to prevent one horse from claiming both shelters. But Cowboy and Trooper have decided they can do "bitey-face" over that short section of panel. 6 feet to one side, and there would be empty space between them. So they stayed at the one spot where they could have a panel between them, so they could do bitey face (long range photo thru a window because I figured they would stop if I came out):


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## Sharpie

What is it with geldings and bitey face? Apparently it's a great way to pass the time... :headdesk:


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## gottatrot

I'm curious about how you divide the riding/exercising of the three horses. Do you primarily focus on one horse while the others are ridden by your daughter, etc? Or do you try to work all three? Do you try to spend more time with one or two for training purposes? Do you try for any particular schedule?

My ideal is to get each horse out twice a week since that seems manageable even if I'm super busy. In a good season I get them ridden more, in a bad season sometimes once a week only or less. There is a twenty-something year old girl who comes most Fridays to ride Amore out with me and Halla, which helps since then I can get both horses out at once.

I'm not hinting you don't ride enough or anything like that, I'm just wondering if you have a focus or plan for one horse in particular, such as Bandit. If I can only get one horse ridden I choose Halla since Amore is 24 and doesn't need the energy burned off like Halla does.


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## bsms

Geldings and bitey-face:

Mia used to watch Trooper and Cowboy doing it, then turn to me with a look that said, "Those are not horses. They are invaders from a foreign planet. Send the darn things back to whatever planet they came from!"

Then she would look at them with utter contempt on her face. I've had people tell me that is impossible, but anyone who knew her would say otherwise.

It is also embarrassing if we meet any neighbors on the street, and they notice the multiple hairless spots on the horses' faces. How do you explain that geldings seem to LIKE biting each other on the face? I'm waiting to have someone turn me in for abusing my horses. "_Look, he must whip them on their faces ALL THE TIME!_"

But I am happy to see Bandit starting to learn to socialize with the other two. He's the most active of the 3, so he can race around the corral while the other two look at each other as if to say, "_What got into him?_" "_I dunno - bee sting maybe?_"


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## bsms

Riding time: For a long time, Cowboy has been ridden about 6-8 times a year. I agreed to take him because my DIL, daughter and wife all SWORE they would ride him regularly. Then they did not. And at 185 lbs, I was too heavy for him. At 160, I'm questionable.

Happily, Cowboy is the same horse when ridden 3 days in a row, or after 3 months. I did get some riding in on him last summer and fall, and hope to do so again. I actually really like him as a riding horse. If he was just a little bigger, he'd be my Number One Choice.

Trooper is my youngest daughter's horse. He is the only horse she enjoys riding. He likes her. Trooper was ridden about 2-3 times a week during the summer. But the weather has been the worst riding weather in Nov/Dec during our 7 years with horses, and he's being ridden about once a month right now. I honestly think she is losing interest in riding, and I wouldn't mind selling him to a good owner. But how do you find a good owner? And if I do sell Bandit, then I might ride Trooper. We've never clicked as horse/rider, but he has a lot going for him as a horse.

Bandit was ridden 5-6 times a week during the summer. Maybe 4 times a week during the fall. Then almost none for the last 6 weeks. Bandit is the sort who DOES need to get out regularly. Living in a corral is not fair to him, not unless he is ridden. And while I'm glad I've found a few months of work, I'm leaving just after sunrise most mornings, and getting back just before sunset. I went jogging today (worked Saturday & had today off). That was the first time in 2 months that I've gone out for a run.

I may start walking Bandit on a lead rope after I get back from work. If I have a half hour of light...well, it only takes a couple minutes to switch to jeans, put a halter on him and go for a walk. He's bored, and then full of **** when he is ridden - for the first 10-15 minutes. Settles, though.

I like Bandit better than Trooper, but by spring I need to seriously look at selling him. Or giving him away, if I can find a good match for him. He'd be a darn good ranch horse, but that isn't an easy life either. In the summer it is easy: sun rises at 5, I feed them a few pellets at 6, then saddle up at 7 and ride for an hour. Maybe two next summer, since his feet should not be bothering him...he actually has exceptionally good feet barefoot, according to our farrier.

In the winter, it should usually work. Our normal weather pattern is 2-3 days of cold or wet, then 3 days of dry & sunny. Ride the sunny days and skip the cold/wet ones...but we only hit the average high once in December. And now I'm gone during daylight hours most days.

If I sound unhappy about our arrangement, I am. Daughter hates the idea of selling Trooper, but she isn't riding him much either. I like Bandit well enough, but not nearly as much as I liked Mia and he isn't as content to laze around the corral as the other two. Cowboy is a good little horse, but borders on too small for me - but he is the only one my wife seems to enjoy...and she MAY start riding for real if the weather cooperates.

I don't know what to do. Trooper and Cowboy at least are happy to be corral lizards. Feed them, water them, and leave them alone - and they are happy. And they will be ready to ride a month from now, if you wish. Bandit is not. And I'm not really that attached to any of the geldings. I think I'd prefer an Arabian mare. Darned if I know what to do!


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## gottatrot

It sounds to me like you don't own the right horse for you, but possibly out of the other three there is one that could be the right horse for everyone else you ride with (assuming they are more casual riders/less involved). I know it is hard for me to keep more than one horse conditioned, and I believe it might be best in the future to only have one serious riding horse. But that can be tricky when others want to ride with me, so I do like having a second horse for that. 

In the past I might have said I didn't believe in selling on horses since they're like family members to me. But life is short and I've learned through good friends that sometimes it is better for the horse to find them a perfect partner in life instead of thinking they have to stay with you always. That can be very difficult in many ways, as you know. But I wish for you that while you still have some good riding years left you could find a horse that was "the one". A real pleasure to spend time with.


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## bsms

Long time / no entry. But finally got a short ride in this morning, only the second for January and either the 4th or 5th since November. Second ride since Christmas. The last ride wasn't pretty so I had low expectations. 

I used our old & slightly small Abetta saddle. The good saddle is a little big for me. A 16" slick seat feels more like a 16.5 inch saddle, and I'd be ideal with a 15.5" one. The 15" Abetta is a little tight, and it puts my feet further back than I like, but it has a much grippier seat. It also is a much smaller saddle. My good saddle is about the same as the Circle Y saddle in this picture and you can see how much smaller the footprint is - almost "English" small:








​ 
But that smaller footprint is narrower as well, which allows my legs to hang down instead of being pushed out sideways first. Combined with the grip of the seat, I figured it would serve me well if we did some dancing today.

I also switched him back to the Billy Allen snaffle:








​ 
Mounted up and did about two laps of our little arena. No bucking, no thrashing...so we headed out to go around the block. No big goals for today, not for a horse going out alone after only 4 rides or so in the previous 60 days. 

He acted tense, so I asked him to trot. We trotted a quarter mile, then he paused because of a trailer in the front yard. It was the same trailer he had seen about 6 months ago and had a fit over. Long missing, but now it was back. He walked a little sideways and tried to turn around. We did about a minute of "No, no way in hell are you turning around". Then I asked for a trot...and we trotted past it. He sped up a little.

All of his trotting was his nervous trot - tense back, lots of lift, VERY bouncy. Instead of trying to hold him back or to spare him, I just bounced along. "Wham, wham, wham"...my butt bouncing into the saddle. If he softened a little, I'd switch to two point. If he got tense again, I did Bounce Butt.

He didn't try to avoid anything else and we trotted about a mile like that. Then he blew out some ******s and wanted to walk. So we went past the turn to home and did another lap. He spent about 100 yards fussing, then settled. The next lap had very little trotting. We mostly walked, with him relaxed and looking around. We went past The Trailer...and he didn't even look at it. He was looking at the flag in a yard on the other side of the road - but JUST looking. Not sure he even noticed the scary trailer.

A little further, and a kid ran out into the yard cutting multiple imaginary enemies to pieces with his light saber. Bandit looked at him, but with curiosity, not fear. No hesitation.

The wind picked up. No indication he cared about the wind. Trooper saw him and started calling. He ignored Trooper. After all, while the 3 horses are mixed, there is no love between the other two and Bandit. No fighting and biting, though, which is good - Bandit is covered in old bite marks that are healing nicely. He's the number 3 of 3, but he has established that he'll fight if pushed - and he can win that fight. So the bite marks are healing.

Called it quits when we got back. I was already going to be late for church and the wind was picking up. When I untacked him, he put his head next to my chest and so I spent 3 minutes giving head & face rubs to him - the first time he's asked for any.

Overall, I was extremely happy. Mixing has NOT resulted in him getting herd bound. He did need to get out. But like _gottatrot_ mentioned in her journal, he may be one of those horses who just need to get out and GO for a little while. And he doesn't seem to need to canter or gallop. A fast trot will do, at least on pavement.

Forgot to mention that on lap two, we took a short detour to the desert. Very short since I was already out of time, but he had no problems.

And after a mile or so of trotting, he settled and seemed quite happy to be out and about. Looking around, watching things, but watching without fear.

There is a sticky thread on HF that says:_I NEVER let a horse look at things, examine things, go up to new things, 'sniff'' things or any of that. If you do any of these, you are teaching to stop and look or sniff everything instead of go on down the trail..._

_ If you let a horse look at things, then you are teaching him to be afraid of everything that is new and telling him that things should be looked at instead of ignored. You are not telling him that it is OK to go right past it. I want a horse to ignore everything but me..._

_ Do you want a horse that is afraid of everything and stops at every new thing he encounters or do you want a horse that goes everywhere you point his head without questioning you? Remember, you just can't have it both ways._​Well, I want it both ways and we're getting there. Bandit still expresses concern, and sometimes expresses it with some vigor, but he will go on past now. Didn't before, but does now. Get the boogers out of his brain, and he seems willing to go around, looking at things without fearing them. 

Not saying he is bomb-proof or anything close, but he is headed toward being about to look around and enjoy his time out.

I think my mistake - MY mistake - last time was keeping him in the arena to work the boogers out instead of taking him out to GO somewhere. He may be one of those horses who works best on an open road, even if it is paved. Oh - and we did about 95% of the ride with one hand on the reins.

But yeah, I was really impressed by him today! The Abetta saddle gave me a grippy butt and allowed my legs to hang at his sides. He didn't fuss even a little in his Billy Allen snaffle. He wanted to trot for a mile...what is wrong with that?

Wish I could ride again this afternoon, but the winds are now 20-30 mph and the forecast is for gusts up to 60. A 60 mph gust MIGHT be too much to ask of him right now. Still...

:loveshower:​


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## Alhefner

Sounds like real progress!


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## phantomhorse13

bsms said:


> The good saddle is a little big for me. A 16" slick seat feels more like a 16.5 inch saddle, and I'd be ideal with a 15.5" one.


Ever think about trying a seat saver on that saddle? I find that generally makes a saddle feel slightly smaller and it certainly helps with the slickness.


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## bsms

^^ I've got one sitting in my "cart" at an online shopping place. I've been debating back and forth on it:










22 5-star review and 3 4-star reviews. A merino wool version has 13 5-star reviews and 1 4-star.

https://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail...00b0d0204ae5&gas=merino seat saver#tab-review

I'm leaning toward buying it. The slick seat is good for longer rides where nothing exciting happens, but bare smooth polished leather is slick as snot on a door knob! It took living with it for a while to realize that a "slick seat" has good points...AND bad. Not the best saddle for a horse who might feel like dancing at times!

This one:

Merino Sheepskin Deluxe Western Seat Saver | Jeffers Pet

Also has 7 5-star reviews. Add them up, and that is 42 5-star reviews and only 4 4-star, and nothing below that. And yeah, a 16" slick seat is just a bigger saddle than my rump needs.

So I'll probably order one and try it. It could be the difference between using an $1800 saddle daily and rarely using it. I'll give a plug for Abetta saddles, though. Bought it for my DIL to use, and it was $370 new including shipping. Darn good saddle for the price!


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## phantomhorse13

We use the JMS brand and love them. The original full saddle cover I had on my english saddle had probably 5000+ miles on it before it showed enough wear I considered replacing it!

There are also seat-only versions for a western saddle, if you are concerned about having more bulk under the lower thigh/knee:

seat cover only


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I know that this brand gets slammed a lot, but I will tell you that it has been an awesome saddle for me. A friend of mine with fibromyalgia swears by her Tuckers and Circle Y's, got into my saddle one time and immediately offered to buy it from me!
 
Hilason. 

I paid under $500 for a leather one, delivered new about 2 years ago and put about 40 miles (about half, not so easy miles) each week and it has held together wonderfully.

The one I got has a memory foam seat and a wide tree for Oliver’s big shoulders and I think they come in half sizes so a 15.5 might fit you better. You can choose between the smooth seats or rough out. Even with the wide tree the seat itself is fairly narrow in comparison to the Tuckers and Circle Y’s I have sat in, easier on the hips.

It isn’t popular to go “cheap” but I ride that saddle over my twice as expensive Herfords and it has worn very well for both Ollie and me. Maybe I just got "lucky". Wouldn’t use it for roping, but for trails, I have never had reason to be sore, nor has my horse.


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## bsms

After a month on the fence, I've been knocked off. Order this one:

JMS Endurance/Western Sheepskin Saddle Cushion - Deluxe










Should arrive in a few days...not sure when I'll have daylight to try it out.

I've debated trying a dressage saddle for Bandit. The saddle I had made for Mia (15.3 hands) fits stocky little Cowboy (13.0 hands) but is just WIDER than 15.0 hands Bandit's back. The much smaller footprint of the Abetta works well on him. I might end up trying a 16" Abetta with a seat saver...or a used dressage saddle. I'd have to think a lot before trying a Hilason, given that I know the narrow sized Abetta fits Bandit.

But I'll try the seat saver on Mia's saddle and see if it helps with the "slick"!


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## knightrider

bsms, I do not agree with that sticky you posted about not allowing your horse to sniff things. Just like so many things in life, every horse is unique. Some horses NEED to sniff things. If they go up and look at it a minute, dismiss it, then forever after, they know it is nothing to worry about. I've had a bunch of horses like that. I didn't "teach them to stop and look and sniff." In time, given time, they were steady trail horses. On the other hand, I have had horses that needed to be ridden quietly past things without the rider giving any indication of concern, ignoring the horse's spookiness. And there was a marvelous post on here once (which I cannot find) about a horse in India who spooked every single time he had to pass a certain ox cart. The rider tried an experiment and let the horse go as far away from the ox cart as it wanted. Each day the horse went a little closer to the ox cart until it was no longer a concern at all. So, every horse is different. A true horseman/woman senses what works best for each horse and does it.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

^^^Double like!


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## Bondre

^^^^^Triple like :thumbsup:

The oxcart experiment was just one of bsms's many interesting quotes from great horsemen of the past century. And very true to boot. That is an example of the horse desensitizing himself in response to a repeated stimulus, helped by the calm and indifferent attitude of his rider. If the rider had made a fuss about the oxcart ("no, you mustn't look at it") it could have made the threat worse, as perceived by his horse. 

I wonder if this differing reaction to perceived threats is an intelligence thing? I mean on the horse's part. Do more intelligent horses do better with an equal-to-equal approach ie: let's check this scary thing out and you'll see that actually it isn't a threat? And maybe intellectually less-advantaged equine citizens are happier to be told, "don't look, just keep going" and be relieved of the responsibility of thinking...?


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## knightrider

Bondre, I don't think the need to sniff goes along with intelligence. My very very smart appaloosa mare, the one who earned me $21,000, was one who needed to walk unconcernedly past things that scared her. The more you made her look at it and tried to get her to sniff it, the more upset and anxious she got. Yet she knew 21 tricks and performed flawlessly before crowds of 6,000 people. She could jump 4 feet and did dressage. She was an amazing horse, caught on to things very quickly, and was a true trooper. Also (unfortunately), she never let other people ride her, except me. I don't know if that was particularly intelligent, but she tossed other riders in creative ways that always managed to injure them. Then she'd gallop wildly slamming into trees so that she damaged my tack as well. She always put herself under me if I felt like I was coming off of her. She was certainly a character.


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## gottatrot

knightrider said:


> bsms, I do not agree with that sticky you posted about not allowing your horse to sniff things. Just like so many things in life, every horse is unique.


I also disagree about not letting the horse look around, etc. The oxcart story was a good one too, and shows how being flexible with different horses can help find solutions for them. 

I believe horses have different kinds of intelligence, like humans do. Some horses are kinetically intelligent and adjust to terrain where other horses might stumble. Some horses can sort through mental puzzles like how to open a gate or untie themselves. Just because you're not smart at math doesn't mean you're not talented at playing a musical instrument or doing a sport. One of my mares can run through brush up the side of a mountain and never put a foot down wrong, but when she was in a field with a bridge she couldn't figure out how to get to the pasture on the other side when a string was put across the bridge. Her pasture mate either jumped the string or ran through the creek, but my mare would stare longingly over at her friend eating the lush grass and be stuck on her own side.


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## bsms

"_If you let a horse look at things, then you are teaching him to be afraid of everything that is new and telling him that things should be looked at instead of ignored._"

All I can say is that this is not a true statement in my limited experience. My experience is with an exceptionally intelligent and willing (but spooky) Arabian mare, and a gelding who is 50:50 Mustang:Arabian.

Bandit arrived here having been taught you stop to investigate NOTHING. You cannot win a race if you stop to figure something out!

But something I noticed walking him on a lead line was that if I urged him forward, he would do it - but he would still consider the scary thing scary. I might be able to dominate him enough to get him "by", but I didn't get any "buy-in" from him that our course of action was safe.

If I gave him some time, and we checked it out together, then he would realize it was not scary. That was true of Mia as well, except it was almost impossible to dominate her into going by. But if you did, it was still scary.

My theory was that if I could show Bandit that my judgment was correct, and build up a track record of being right about what was scary and what was not, that he would eventually figure, "_Bob has been right 93 out of 94 times. If he says I don't need to be scared, the odds are very good that I do not_". In essence, my THEORY was that he was a sane, rational, thinking animal capable of learning trust the way a human learns it - by evaluating the track record of the person asking for the trust.

Initially, he went downhill and became spookier. He got worse, not better. He began spooking at things he had passed earlier. I chalked it up to him learning it was OK to talk to me and tell me something was scary. So I continued.

I've now owned him over 8 months. And he is much more likely to forge ahead on a loose rein now than he was when he arrived. More and more, it seems as if my theory is proving out: He is learning to trust my judgment. Not my dominance, but my judgment.

That may not be the best approach with a ranch horse. Ranch horses generally don't get 8-12 months to figure things out. They need to go and get the job done now, or very soon. And a thousand miles of riding will cover a multitude of sins. Enough sweaty blankets, and the horse WILL figure things out.

But like I said, I want it all. I want a horse who trusts me, but who also feels free to tell me he is too tired, or the footing is bad, or he THINKS there is a snake nearby, or whatever. My joy in riding is not getting from A to B, but going from A to B with a friend. That is very different from a horse being trained for ranch work, or to go to busy shows, etc.

I am not, in any way, trying to suggest my way is the only way. I am certain it is not! It also may not be the best way, and it certainly takes a lot longer than other methods people use. But it is consistent with my goals and my philosophy of riding. If I continue to see improvement, then it will be worth every day, week, month and even years of effort.

And while I am eccentric, I find myself sometimes posting "_What HAS been done, by definition, CAN be done!_" When I'm told you MUST use a "snaffle only" approach until the horse's behavior is flawless - well, I violated that rule and had great results with Mia - and "_What HAS been done, by definition, CAN be done!_" I'm trying a different approach that what others have told me in teaching a horse confidence. So far, the results are looking promising - and "_What HAS been done, CAN be done!_"

The oxcart story, for anyone who hasn't seen it, is this (from Tom Roberts):








​ 
Dang! Nearly 100 years ago!

That story gave me better advice on how to handle Mia than anything else I've seen or read. It has worked very well for Bandit, as well. When a friend took Bandit out in the desert (with the other two horses) a few months ago, I told him not to try to force Bandit past something, but use any available room to the side or a little extra time to allow Bandit to get past willingly.

About an hour later, Bandit saw something in the desert he didn't like. My friend tried to push bandit past, and Bandit bucked hard enough that the 6'3" guy ended up in front of the saddle horn! But being 6'3" tall, he got back on the correct side soon enough.

Remembering what I had told him, he did a small detour thru the desert to get around the scary thing. Later, when they came back, Bandit passed the scary thing with nothing more than a contemptuous glance. At least with Mia (and now Bandit), giving the horse enough freedom to go by on a slack rein helps get the horse's "buy-in". A very scary thing, like the bullocks carts, might need a dozen trips by - with reduced detours.

If there is not room for a detour, then going by SLOOWWWLY seems to work. It may take 5 minutes to get by the first time, then 1 the next, and then Bandit will stroll by the third time.

OR...trot past. A trotting horse is already going faster, so it can afford to go closer to a thread and still be able to get away.

There is more than one way to crack the nut. But the key, for how I want to ride, is to do it in a way that the horse ACCEPTS it, rather than going past because I'm scarier than the scary thing.


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## bsms

A week since my last ride, got another one in. First time since at least Christmas that I've taken Bandit out with another horse...maybe 6 weeks plus. Also got a chance to try the new wool seat:








​ 
JMS Endurance/Western Sheepskin Saddle Cushion - Deluxe​ 
So how did it go? In a word: OUTSTANDING!

There are three factors that could be playing in to today's ride:

1 - Bandit has been mixed with the other horses for a couple of weeks now. He doesn't actually LIKE them, but they are living in one corral now. That could be helping him

2 - It MAY be that my theory on building confidence in a horse is working.

3 - The seat cover made me feel like my butt was glued to the saddle. It could be my confidence in my seat was flowing into Bandit's mind.

Or it may be all three combined. Regardless, he was the calmest, most forward and most relaxed he has ever been on a ride...and it was only his third ride since Christmas!

My youngest asked me about 3 minutes into the ride how I liked my "cushion". I told her I'd know more by the end of the ride. In reality, I knew in 10 minutes.

A "slick swell" saddle with a "slick seat" - aka "hard seat" - is a slick saddle. I've admitted I sometimes get scared on a horse. But while I really like a slick seat saddle for a horse I have total confidence in (Cowboy) and think they are great for long rides...they are SLICK. It sometimes feels like my butt is a skater on ice. The seat is a bit big for me anyways, and I never touch the cantle. It is easy to feel like you will slide back if your horse darts forward when it feels like there is nothing but air behind you. The saddle has a 4" cantle. But I cannot FEEL it when riding, so my mind feels like there is nothing there at all.

Meanwhile, if the horse comes to a sudden and unasked for stop - which is something my Craigslist Horses do at times - there is nothing to grip. It feels like I'm an empty aluminum can being blown down a paved road. To compensate, I keep my feet a bit forward so there IS something to stop me - my stirrups!

It is very different with the sheepskin. Mine is tied kind of loosely on, but it doesn't slide around at all. Not even a tiny bit.

Meanwhile, it DOES give me something to grip. If I squeeze a little - or a lot - with my thighs, I don't squirt up and out of the saddle. I just...grip.

A few minutes into the ride, he acted a tiny bit "fresh", so I asked for a trot. There was just enough grip and cushion that I could stay stable and soft at a sitting trot. For his part, Bandit decided 250 yards of trotting on pavement was all the "fresh" he needed, so we slowed to a walk. This shows some learning on my part - I think we may do that sort of thing frequently. Unlike Mia, he doesn't lose his mind with excitement. By giving in to him - yeah, by letting HIM do some of the deciding - he gets a little of the frustration of being corral-bound for weeks out of him, and I think he then TRUSTS me to understand HIS needs instead of making the ride all about ME. It sounds counter-intuitive, but horses can be like kids. Sometimes you need to give up CONTROL before you will be listened to. By relinquishing control, you gain it.

Trooper briefly got ahead of bandit, and Bandit's competitive nature kicked in. He darted to the inside of a turn to get in front of Trooper - which made Trooper happy, since he prefers to bring up the rear.

As we headed out into the desert, I realized I wasn't resting my free hand on the horn. It was just hanging by my side. And I also noticed my heels were almost underneath me. Apparently, since my body was no longer worried about what would happen if Bandit stopped without warning, it stopped putting my feet forward. Hmmm...

I also wonder if the steadiness of my seat in the saddle made Bandit more confident. He really didn't turn a wrong foot today. He gave a few things the stink eye, and he kind of questioned if we were REALLY going to enter the wash, but it was just a tiny hesitation. A moment of urging with my seat and he slipped forward, taking up his "point position" that he loves.

I was shocked at how easy it was to relax in the saddle. My feet were light in the stirrups most of the time. I thought getting the fuller sized cover might make my already wide feeling saddle feel too wide, but the opposite happened. I don't know why, but it felt wider when I sat in it on a saddle stand, but not on the horse. On Bandit, it left my leg hanging vertically down his vertical sides - see him in the avatar. He is a very narrow horse with a deep chest and very vertical sides...and my lower leg just hung there next to his side.

Coming back, we went past a neighbor who had added a small windmill to his yard as a decoration. Not sure I understand what was decorative about it, but the wind was blowing at about 15-20 mph, the windmill spinning hard - and Bandit didn't care. Gave it a short glance and continued on. Maybe he saw real ones on the reservation? Or was he just feeling confident?

As we got closer to home, the youngest asked Trooper for a canter and he started cantering away from us. Bandit didn't like that at all and started to fuss, then a charlie horse hit my right thigh. I yelled at my daughter to stop her %#@! horse, then took my foot out of the stirrup and cussed some more until the pain went away.

Then I thought, "_I've never trusted Bandit to canter well outside an arena...isn't it about time? He'll feel very frustrated if I try to hold him back..._"

So I asked my youngest if she wanted to try it again. She said yes, asked Trooper to canter...and I didn't need to ask Bandit. He might have stayed behind if I got real bossy about it, but it didn't take more than a click of the tongue for him to canter.

Cantering outside the arena, going straight, even down a paved road, he turns out to have a very smooth canter. He did NOT like being behind Trooper, so he powered it up and quickly passed Trooper - who, in fairness to him, likes to walk very slow, trot very fast, and canter kind of slow. Passing him at a canter was easy.

I was using two hands and trying to keep slack. Trying to TRUST instead of CONTROL. I used my ring and pinkie fingers to take a little slack out in a back & forth movement, and Bandit settled into a good, smooth canter. That opened up a gap on Trooper. As we got near home, only about 1/4 mile, I asked him to slow and turn in. He understood (yes, horses can think - _they are rational animals if anyone will listen!_) and did so without fuss.

I wondered, and now I know. The seat cover worked great at a canter. No sliding in the saddle, just staying with the motion. Very nice.

At the end, as soon as I took the bridle off, Bandit asked for face rubs. I agreed, and he ended up sticking his nose under my armpit so he could get both sides of the face rubbed at once. I didn't mind in the least. Yeah, my sweatshirt is now covered in horse hair, but I figure he wouldn't do that if he didn't feel comfortable with our ride.

So...Bandit has the makings of a great trail horse. I think he will always tend to race another horse, but he doesn't go wild with excitement. Maybe all those 4-12 mile runs when racing on the reservation convinced him running isn't THAT exciting, although he does want to get in front and stay there. I can see how he would make a good racing horse. But I also think that he and Trooper could learn to work together, with Bandit being the leader and Trooper content to be a few strides behind. There are not many good places to canter near me, but if he is content to canter for 1/4 mile at a time on pavement...we can probably make things work.

So, both a review of the saddle cover (outstanding!) and progress with Bandit. It obviously is a lot less likely that I'll sell him this spring. I spite of very minimal riding, he is making progress toward becoming a very confident trail horse.
----------------------------------------------------

BTW, came across this quote in an article I read in preparation for trying to discuss balance and motion in horses:I agree that the net effect of hyperflexion is more to do with getting better submission of a ‘hot’ horse rather than achieving gymnastic improvement, but this cannot be condemned, as submission of animals is an essential part of domestication in general and is at the heart of what we do with horses (and especially in dressage). In other words, we make them do exercises that they are physically capable of, but which they would never perform in nature if not forced to do so by circumstances. If you are of the opinion that humans should not impose their will on animals, then stop your equestrian activities.​I agree we need control because we are, hopefully, smarter than the horse. At least some of the time. But there are things a horse knows more about than we do - how he feels, what he smells, how stable the ground it under his feet, how tired he is, etc.

But I strongly oppose the "one or the other" model the writer is suggesting! I don't need to be totally in control of everything. In return, my horse seems willing to GIVE me control of much more. Riding a horse is less a physical activity and more of a mental one to me. It is the give and take between the minds of two animals of different species that fascinates me. *Maybe that is the lasting legacy Mia will have given me*. She would never make the trail horse Bandit is capable of becoming, but she tried hard and made it clear she MUST be respected, not dominated. And yes, I guess I still miss her, while learning to appreciate Bandit for who he is!

But I'm NOT interested in imposing my will on my horse. And I guess Bandit is becoming "my horse". We are slowly coming to a meeting of the minds. But if I can't get a "willing partnership" with my horse, then I'll "stop [my] equestrian activities"! 

*If I need rollkur to control my horse, then may the Lord strike me off of him!

And thank you, Mia!
*​


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## Woodhaven

I have a very small oxcart story. I had an Appaloosa/Arab gelding who was the spookiest horses I ever rode.
One day I was walking along the dead furrow at the edge of a ploughed field which had lots of bushes and my boy did not want to walk along beside them but away from them in the field. I thought to myself "if you want to move over into that heavy, heavy going, be my guest, and he did but after a while he began to realize how hard he is working and moved back to the dead furrow where is was much easier going. His decision and no thought of spooking then.
As far as smart horses and no spooking, I can say that I had over the years two horses that were quite intelligent and smart and they were both non spookers. I don't know if this is standard for that type of horse or just what I had.


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## Bondre

bsms said:


> A few minutes into the ride, he acted a tiny bit "fresh", so I asked for a trot. There was just enough grip and cushion that I could stay stable and soft at a sitting trot. For his part, Bandit decided 250 yards of trotting on pavement was all the "fresh" he needed, so we slowed to a walk. This shows some learning on my part - I think we may do that sort of thing frequently. Unlike Mia, he doesn't lose his mind with excitement. By giving in to him - yeah, by letting HIM do some of the deciding - he gets a little of the frustration of being corral-bound for weeks out of him, and I think he then TRUSTS me to understand HIS needs instead of making the ride all about ME. It sounds counter-intuitive, but horses can be like kids. Sometimes you need to give up CONTROL before you will be listened to. By relinquishing control, you gain it.


Bsms, you posted this when I was thinking the EXACT same thing! My clicker training session with Macarena had led me to this same conclusion, as she surprised me by showing herself to have a greater grasp of what I'm trying to teach her than I had suspected.

If you've visited my journal you'll have read this already,* but basically I'm working on her baulking and barn sour issue with the clicker as positive reinforcement for free forward movement. I had a problem with the minutae of how to reward her for moving forward when I have to stop her to give her the treat. Tried micromanaging with the clicker with variable results. Then tried leaving it up to her. I reached for the treat, she stopped to take it and then spontaneously carried on walking.

Maybe this sounds insignificant but it was a HUGE thing for us. Seeing as she has become so sticky about being ridden anywhere on her own, we are doing very basic stuff, ie: only stopping when requested and moving forward without a fuss. And here she was, having stopped of her own accord (danger, this normally precedes a baulk) she then walked forward again *of her own volition*. Shows that she knows exactly what I'm trying to teach her, and responded perfectly when I gave her the opportunity to take a decision.



bsms said:


> I was using two hands and trying to keep slack. Trying to TRUST instead of CONTROL. I used my ring and pinkie fingers to take a little slack out in a back & forth movement, and Bandit settled into a good, smooth canter. That opened up a gap on Trooper. As we got near home, only about 1/4 mile, I asked him to slow and turn in. He understood (yes, horses can think - _they are rational animals if anyone will listen!_) and did so without fuss.


OMG, Bsms, a thinking horse! Be careful there, many people prefer obedience over free thought. :rofl: This reminds me of the clicker training book, whose author states that this sort of approach to training teaches your horse to think and solve problems. And warns not to start on it unless you want a thinking horse, with all that this implies..... apparently they are not every one's cup of tea!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms

"_Maybe this sounds insignificant but it was a HUGE thing for us. Seeing as she has become so sticky about being ridden anywhere on her own, we are doing very basic stuff, ie: only stopping when requested and moving forward without a fuss. And here she was, having stopped of her own accord (danger, this normally precedes a baulk) she then walked forward again *of her own volition*._"

I'm glad to hear it. Steps may seem small, but if they result in a horse understanding and accepting, then they ARE big steps. When the horse "buys in" to a concept, they become willing instead of just obedient. Obedient is faster for some people, but I don't have the riding ability or self-confidence to demand too much obedience.

Got a short ride in today. Bandit broke my camera, and I think we took a step back, and then leaned forward a little. Hard to say.

The horses had been nervous in their corral for an hour prior to the ride. My wife had volunteered to ride Cowboy with me, but she isn't a confident rider and she backed out when she entered the corral. But she DID agree to walk Trooper from the ground, which limited my doing much trotting but at least gave me the confidence to go.

Bandit was jumpy as we left. About a 1/4 mile down the street, he bolted. I have no idea why. I don't think he did, either. We were walking, and then he was either cantering or galloping. The reins were slack. We were on pavement. There were a bunch of large boulders just to the left of us, so I gathered myself (and was extremely happy I had the sheepskin under me) and bumped. Hard. Bumb, bump, bump. One hand. He stopped at about 50 yards, so it all happened quickly.

He started backing up on his own, so I spun him around in a 360, then another. He stopped trying to back up. I asked him forward. He moved forward, tense, rigid back, elevated withers. But he moved. He was looking all around as if he was trying to figure out what startled him. We did Figure 8s...maybe 6-7 of them. Yes, I was in his mouth. Very much so, using two hands on the reins. He started to relax.

My camera was jarred out of my front shirt pocket by the initial surge, and my wife told me it was broken. Oh well. $80 camera that I had for 3 years. Certainly got my money's worth out of it!

Bandit relaxed a little, so I went to a little slack in the reins. Not much. Wasn't feeling very trusting. A car went past us, but Bandit mostly ignored the car. Trooper went past us and took the lead. Bandit doesn't believe in that! So I gave him a light squeeze and he moved into a trot, thru a section of cactus-free desert and back in front. Then slowed immediately when asked.

Then we walked/trotted in a tense, up/down motion for the next quarter mile...with slack in the reins. Not tons, but slack. I think Bandit would have preferred me in his mouth, but we were not in danger and I want him to learn to listen to my seat, my legs and my attitude without me in his mouth. When we got too far ahead of Trooper, we'd turn and go back for him.

We did a big circle (about 200-300 yards in diameter) where the dirt ATV trails circle. He was nervous, but a couple of laps calmed him a little. Not much. Turning up a dirt road, I trotted him forward, then back. There is a place where the ATVs have churned a tight circle in the desert (and a place where people-pigs all too often dump trash). We did a loop there, then back to the dirt road. My wife took a couple of pictures. I was back in his mouth because he seemed about to walk without looking into a yucca plant (just to the right of us), and the spines going into his legs would have created a rodeo I did not need:








​ 







​ 
I guess I'm happy with my position, but not at all happy about how he was moving or his attitude. You can probably see there isn't a lot of love going on in those pictures! Unhappy rider and unhappy horse!

She also took a selfie of Trooper, who was quite content to watch Bandit and I getting ****y with each other:








​ 
Before long, we were back in the neighborhood. Bandit was relaxing his neck (finally!)...but no, it wasn't over. A few hundred yards of paved road and he jolted and stopped. No idea what it was. So we did 2 full circles, and he resumed walking forward. Then I trotted him, and we mostly trotted and turned back for Trooper and turned forward and trotted and turned back for Trooper until we got home.

I wish I could claim we made progress, but it was mostly one of those hard feeling rides where you wonder when the fun is going to start - and it doesn't!

"_This reminds me of the clicker training book, whose author states that this sort of approach to training teaches your horse to think and solve problems. And warns not to start on it unless you want a thinking horse, with all that this implies....._"

On the positive side, Bandit did not profit from any fussing. He never got to take control. I guess we had a few more instances where I told him it wasn't scary or worth fussing and was proven right. And if he was a pain in the rear at times, and moved poorly...well, he WAS expressing what was inside him instead of bottling it up! And shortly after the pictures were taken, he did a bunch of head dipping, which may have gotten some of the tension out of his neck But no, it wasn't pretty today. 

More this: :angrily_smileys: than this:  At least it wasn't this: :falloff:

The old joke in the military was that bonding occurred with "shared misery". If so, maybe Bandit and I did some bonding.

On another thread, there is a discussion on if a horse will "hollow" its back when it raises its head. While saddling Bandit up today, he was cycling between head sky high, looking at some people working on their roof, and dropping to grab a mouth of dried grass, and in between. The result is as Racinet described in "Falling for fallacies": Head very high or level with the withers had almost no effect on how his back felt just behind the withers. A high position elevated the withers some, but did not raise or lower the back behind the withers. When he dropped to eat, his shoulders moved apart and he sank down between them. That pulled his back forward and down.

Oh...and we're going to call the vet tomorrow. Trooper has one eye clouding over. Hope it is just some sort of infection and he isn't loosing his sight in that eye!


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## phantomhorse13

Sorry to hear your camera was broken, but I think how you handled this episode with Bandit says a lot. Also shows you why so many people riding reactive ayrabs really appreciate seat covers! :wink:

Hope you get to the bottom of Trooper's eye issues.


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## smrobs

bsms said:


> A "slick swell" saddle with a "slick seat" - aka "hard seat" - is a slick saddle. I've admitted I sometimes get scared on a horse. But while I really like a slick seat saddle for a horse I have total confidence in (Cowboy) and think they are great for long rides...they are SLICK. It sometimes feels like my butt is a skater on ice.


LOL, that's why I always go with roughout :wink:.


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## bsms

^^ If I had to do it over again, I'd go rough-out in a heart beat! But since I've gone "slick", the sheepskin may be a lifesaver - literally. Like having soft velcro on the butt...


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## bsms

My second non-Sunday off in 4 weeks, and the winds are 25 with gusts to 40 mph...and supposed to increase thru the day! I tell you, it is a conspiracy!

However, I got a short ride in on Sunday. Bandit trotted for a while beside Trooper and it was his nicest trot yet. Then he decided to go into "racing mode" and his back went rigid and he got ****y with me for not letting him race his opponent (who had no interest in racing anyways).

He didn't like being told no, and his neck went inverted and he got very fussy. OK. So I got in his mouth, aggressively, and stayed there until he dropped his head a little. Then I gave him slack. Wash, rinse, repeat. The third time he dropped his head, it stayed dropped and we walked on with slack reins.

I asked him for a trot a little later, and he started off fine, but then got tense and tried to brace against the bit. So he got a bump, bump, bump of the bit. "_Sorry Bandit, but you are not going to get anything solid to brace against_". On the fourth bump, he settled in his trot, and then slowed to a walk when asked about 50 yards later.

On a positive note, we later were going along the neighborhood road and a truck pulling a pipe trailer came down. Pipe trailers tend to bounce and rattle horribly, and this one was no exception. I asked Bandit to step off the pavement, and stand still while it passed. As it passed, the trailer hit a bump and all the metal pipes rattled against each other. Bandit flinched, but he didn't move a single foot - while on slack reins.

On another thread, I've been told horses need contact to be safe to ride - as in continuous contact. Otherwise they may try to rip the reins out of your fingertips, or bolt. And while there is an element of truth to that - a person DOES need to be ready to jump in a horse's mouth if the stress they are facing exceeds their ability to control themselves or listen to their rider - there is also a falseness about it. The goal should not be to accept that limitation, but to train beyond it.

I wrote on the other thread:"_'the lack of proper contact was your problem with Mia_' is 180 out from what actually made her better. She did not need MORE contact, or CONTINUOUS contact, but *less contact and more trust*. And I know that was the answer because that is what worked. It is hard to argue with results...

...Bandit has some big issue with how he moves, related to having raced with a very heavy rider and having been shod poorly. His feet are much better and he twists his front left leg less often, but learning how to move naturally instead of unnaturally will take a lot of time.

But contact is NOT the answer for him. His previous owner told me to just push him past things - just "make him go" - but that left a horse who was submissive but nervous. My approach was (and is) to let him tell me when he is scared, and then take the time to show him he had no reason to be scared - to include going past most "scary things" on a loose rein. The result is not a spookier horse, but a much more confident horse. He increasingly checks in with me, not because he is worried I'll whip him, but because I've been right a bunch of times in the past and he wants to know MY opinion - ie, TRUST."​It seems to be working with Bandit. He is hardly a bomb-proof horse, and he has a LOT of issues with how he moves. But the trend is my friend. He is gaining confidence, in himself and in me, as testified to by his increasingly handling "scary" things either on his own or by checking in with me.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Harry Whitney told Tom Moates:

"*Hanging between those reins is a thought...it is not too hard to send or lead or direct a thought*." ("A Horse's Thought" by Tom Moates)

That is a bit esoteric for an engineering sort of mind. Engineers (and I never was one, but I spent much of my adult life working with engineers and engineering thought) like plain, simple, easy to see things. Preferably something open to measurement and repeatable tests.

But I had my youngest canter Trooper ahead of us up a dirt trail/road, and let Bandit get ****y about not going. As we struggled a bit, I muttered, "_Your mind is with Trooper, boy. Bring it back...I want it between my hands, not 100 yards down the trail!_"

Uh-oh! Does this mean I'm becoming "*Zen Rider*"? Does this mean a book I poo-pooed when I read it is still teaching me? "_Snatch the pebble from my reins, Grasshopper!_"

I tend to dislike word pictures, but the mental image of trying to get Bandit's mind off of Trooper and back between my hands (or just in front of my one hand) helped. 

"*Zen and the Art of Horse Riding*" might make a good book title someday...:think:​


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## elle1959

Been missing you around these parts! Glad you got a bit of a ride in with Bandit. It sounds like he's doing well; very impressive that he handled the passing trailer so well.


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## tinyliny

cool stuff, bsms. but, I hope you don't think I said you have to have your horse on constant contact to forestall a spook. if you do, then you have put words in my mouth.


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## bsms

No, tinyliny, you did not. Others, at least how I read it, say one does need constant contact. This quote from the Internet shocked me because it never occurred to me that someone might WANT to ride with their elbows or shoulders instead of their fingertips:"The energy continues to travel over the horse’s neck, down to the (hopefully) relaxed mouth/jaw where it meet the next part of the circle of aids – the bit. The bit, through the reins connects back to the rider’s seat, completing the circle of aids. The reins determine the length of the frame, positioning and a degree of bend. Without that limiting action of the rein, the energy would just “fall out” the front of the horse, leaving him running on the forehand. With the rein connecting to the rider’s seat, the energy is recycled back to the hind end...

...but let me reiterate that holding the reins in the first joint or two of the fingers truncates the connection right there. Besides being very unsafe, as it takes very little to pull the reins out of the rider’s hands, it also leaves the rider feeling the connection, literally, in their fingertips. The horse’s energy has no hope of connecting back to the seat. Properly holding the reins in the closed hand with bent thumb on top allowed for the energy to flow uninhibited through the forearm aligned to maintain the straight line from the bit to the elbow, through the supple, but not floppy wrist. Now *the rider should be able to feel horse’s mouth in her elbows, instead of her fingertips*."

Role of the seat in the circle or aids and circle of energy​I guess as it has bounced around in my subconsciousness, what Harry Whitney said is making sense: "*Hanging between those reins is a thought...it is not too hard to send or lead or direct a thought*." Keeping the horse's thought with me DOES help, but it isn't the reins or the bit that allows me to keep his thought between my hands (or just in front of one hand). It is understanding my horse that allows me to work his thought back to me, or to realize it is wandering in the first place.

In this old picture of Mia & I, I'm not using the bit to control her. Yet while she is not focused on me, she was very much with me:








​
This even older picture is one that I replicate all the time with both Bandit and Cowboy. They both are content to leave Trooper behind...to a point. But like Mia, they don't want to go past a Y in the trail without letting Trooper catch up enough to see which fork they take. I've seen it too often for it to be coincidence, and it reinforces my belief that horses are thinking, aware persons.








​
I know what they are thinking at times like these. I could push them onwards, but then their thought would be behind me: "_What is happening with Trooper, and will he take the correct fork?_" When you know what your horse is thinking, you may or may not need some contact (or some movement) to get his thought back with you. But that control comes from understanding the horse's thought, and working with it, rather than acting as if he has no right to think for himself.

Don't know if that makes sense. It does to me, but I don't know if I am communicating it very well.


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## Sahara

bsms said:


> All of his trotting was his nervous trot - tense back, lots of lift, VERY bouncy. Instead of trying to hold him back or to spare him, I just bounced along. "Wham, wham, wham"...my butt bouncing into the saddle. If he softened a little, I'd switch to two point. If he got tense again, I did Bounce Butt.
> 
> ​


Why would you 'bounce butt' on a tense back?


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## tinyliny

the interesting thing about this, is that, if you did push them on , past the fork, and if you got their thought with you, they would be as happy to have their thought with you as they could be by having it back on the stragglers.

it's amazing to watch a really good rider just ask the hrose to give up that backward thought, and then kind of carry him forward, and in two steps, or three, that horse has his ears pricked forward and is going OUT there, ahead, with no thought behind.

in fact HW talks not just about getting a horse's thought, but then "sending" that thought out ahead of you. he likes to get the horse enthusiastic about going somewhere, like your horse appears to be. isn't it a wonderful feeling to be riding a horse that is moving with a "I wonder what's round the next corner?" feeling , (read that with an upturned , optimistic tone to your voice. 

as opposed to a horse that is moving forward with a "oh , no, I wonder what's around the next corner" (read that with a a minor chord, da, da, daaaa , Debbie Downer sort of voice) that was the way Mac was, the appy that would spin me off regularly. gah!


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## bsms

Sahara said:


> Why would you 'bounce butt' on a tense back?


Consequences. Thus going to two point when the tense, jarring trot softens. Incentive.


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## knightrider

The president of my riding club sent me these cool pictures. I don't know exactly how to post them, but you post all kinds of historical pictures in your journal and I thought you might enjoy them, and perhaps share them with others. I especially was mightily impressed with the 40 horse team! I cannot imagine how the driver handled horses so far ahead of him! He must have had outriders to help.

I love your journal. I value your thoughts. I hope you are able to see these photos.
http://webmail-classic.windstream.net/do/mail/message/view


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## Woodhaven

When I am out trail riding I am not using contact unless I need to. I like to just walk along through the woods with the horse walking on a loose rein and I am watching and enjoying the area around me.
Sometimes when trotting for a long stretch I leave the horse on a loose rein and then change my pace up and down for a little variety such as post slower to slow the horse (not as easy on the way home) or a little leg pressure to increase the speed then slow back again. When I am ready to pull up I usually just sit deep in the saddle and if I have to, say "easy" and the horse comes back to me.
When riding out for pleasure I try to leave her head alone as much as possible unless she is being a jerk then back to contact and some schooling until she relaxes again.
Yesterday I went out for a ride, it was extremely windy and sloppy going (which she hates)and she was pretty fresh and when I could I put her into a trot for 1/2 m or more and I left her on a loose rein but was ready to pick up contact should I need to but she was pretty good considering the weather so didn't need to correct her at all.
The one thing with Arabs is that they have great stamina and letting them go to get the friskies out doesn't always work with them.


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## knightrider

My pictures didn't come through. I'll try something else.


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## knightrider

Here are only a few of those interesting pictures for you bsms. Enjoy!



The description said the people are packed into the stagecoaches knee to shoulder for 22 days!




40 horses! Ten lines of 4 abreast! Can you imagine controlling 40 horses!


The man found these two moose as babies and raised them on bottles, then trained them to pull a wagon.

There were many more interesting photos, but I only put these in Photobucket. I don't know how else to get them on here.


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## ChitChatChet

knightrider said:


> The description said the people are packed into the stagecoaches knee to shoulder for 22 days!


And no deodorant.... or showers.


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## bsms

Some bad news on Trooper, who isn't exactly the subject of this thread but who is involved in it...

We notice a little while back that he had an eye infection, and it looked like the eye was turning cloudy. We had a vet out last week. I wasn't home, but he charged $400 to give shots to the 3 horses, tell us Cowboy is a little fat and Bandit a little lean, and...Trooper's eye? "Go see a specialist!" He wouldn't tell my wife squat. If I had been there, I'd have told him to cough up an opinion or walk away with no payment!

A follow-up with an "eye specialist" was going to run $500. But reading up on things, it seemed likely Trooper is either getting "moon eye" (which has no cure or successful treatment) or not. If not, he'll get better. If so, he'll lose the eye regardless of the vet.

Talked to my old college room mate, who owned Trooper from birth. His sire didn't have any eye problems, but his sire's half-brother lost both eyes and was put down. He said he'd have run off any vet who came out to his place, charged him $400 and wouldn't even talk to him about the problem that motivated the visit!

We didn't do the eye specialist. We'll try to deal with any repeat infections, and hope that if Trooper does lose the eye, it will just be the right one. He a calm trail horse who likes being 100-200 feet behind Bandit on a trail, and I suspect he could live a long and contented life with one eye. Both...that would probably finish him.

The farrier was out today. All the horses had excellent feet, I'm told. He's very happy with how Bandit's feet are doing. He thinks Trooper has moon eye - says it looks like what he has seen before. He also says he works on a few Appys who have lost an eye to it, and they are all still doing fine. One is still a working ranch horse, and the others are still trail horses. He did know one that had it happen to both eyes, and it had to be put down.

So I guess we'll see. He's a darned good horse - doesn't like me, but still a darned good horse. He would probably be a darned good one-eyed horse, if it comes to that. Losing him would suck.

The last three times the vet has come out, I've spent $300-$400 a visit and learned nothing I didn't already know.


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## gottatrot

That's too bad about Trooper. When you first mentioned it I thought it seemed likely to be moon blindness since it's so common in Appaloosas. 
However, is it possible it might be a cateract instead? 








Have you seen any redness, tearing or light sensitivity? Those would be more likely to happen along with cloudiness if it was moon blindness since it is a chronic inflammation.

Hopefully it will be limited to one eye. The most sure-footed horse I ever rode was One-eyed Jack. His eye got poked out by a tree branch on a trail ride, or so we heard. He was a 16.3 hand TB, never ever put a foot down wrong because he watched carefully where he went. I felt safe galloping on him. Another horse I knew, even the owner didn't realize he was blind in one eye until a vet pointed it out. Since Trooper has a good temperament, I suspect he would deal with it well.


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## bsms

Posted this on Bondre's thread:

http://www.horseforum.com/member-journals/macarena-flamenca-2015-a-536297/page12/#post8753218

Linked to it here so I can find it if I want to make a point quickly on someone's thread in the future.


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## bsms

Bandit saw me take the saddle out to our little arena. Snapped this picture while carrying the next load of tack out:








​ 
You can see his "_I'm alert_" posture is a very head up position. He's also right next to the gate, which is where he still was when I went to get him. I opened the gate to halter him, without bothering to step inside. He obviously is not reluctant to get out and go somewhere.

We just did a lap around the block. About 300 yards up the road, a neighbor was loading a trailer with stuff to haul to the dump. He was putting the tarp over the stuff as we got close. I stopped Bandit to let him look. He was a bit stressed, but I guess he found standing still more stressful, so we continued on. Yes, I had one hand on the saddle horn in case he decided to do a 180 fast. He danced a little, but kept going mostly forward - with slack reins in my one hand. As we got almost abeam the trailer (did I mention the wind was gusting today?), Bandit broke into a trot.

I normally consider that a no-no, but he was tense and I figured it was better than having him try to turn away, so I ignored the no-no and we trotted the next 250 yards. Then he wanted to slow, but I told him that since he wanted to trot, we could do another 100 yards - and he did, without much reluctance. Then we walked.

Took a detour into the desert. It was the furthest we've gone solo to date, which wasn't very far...but hey! The farthest solo is STILL the farthest solo. He was glad to turn around when we did, but he never hesitated about going forward, either. With less wind, we would have gone farther.

When we got back to pavement, we went thru the neighborhood and past the barking dog. That dog ALWAYS barks, and Bandit responded by blowing, snorting and lowering his head and relaxing his shoulders. The dog has barked at us so many times that Bandit finds it relaxing. With the boogers out of his brain, we went home and I shortened the stirrups. The added cushion of the sheepskin has left me feeling like I'm reaching for the stirrups.

With them one hole shorter, we did a bunch of turns in the cones of confusion, and also trotted and cantered. His trotting is MUCH better. His canter was kind of sloppy today, but not horrible. He sometimes fusses with the bit at a canter, but not today. Then we called it quits. I wasn't supposed to work today, but a lady took sick so I'll go in a few hours from now and work until 9pm.

Still...I like the trend. He is getting more confident. He's going forward where he once would have refused. We're going in the right direction, at least.


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## weeedlady

subbing


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## bsms

"Being on the bit, flexion, collection, are very much abused terms. People who are unable to ride on loose reins, and who have not the slightest idea of what soft contact is, talk freely about riding on the bit and collecting their horses. Never having felt a soft, educated mouth in a horse and not having soft, educated hands themselves, they don't realize they are merely riding pulling - hence abominably stiffly-moving - horses. Many people think that collection means just an arched neck, that flexion is merely dropping the bit: and quite often horses which are pulling are referred to as being on the bit.

*These misconceptions are a hang-over from 19th century teaching when, in Dressage, these three fine points of riding were taught to rank beginners, because without them there was no Dressage type of riding: and anything different was not considered riding at all. There still are, in fact, people who think this way.*" - Page 185

"I personally, appreciating the scientific part of riding and devoting this book primarily to it, because it is the part that can be taught, am very much for individual artistic expression. If someone were to obtain a magnificent performance from his horse, neglecting most of the advice in this book, I would be the first one to appreciate it. *Rules are not made for geniuses. The trouble is that the artistic part of riding does not allow itself to be analyzed or imitated; it is the property of an individual.* And even if one is born with it, his natural talent will not manifest it from the first day in the saddle, but only after education or long experience...

...Translating this into terms of riding, it means that while the rider is exclusively interested in himself; that is, in how HE looks in the saddle, in how HE makes the horse take a jump, in how HE holds his hands, he will remain a rider and only a rider - not even an artistic one. In order to be a horseman he must forget himself, identify himself with the horse, feel that it is he, himself, who has changed leads at the canter or taken the jump; only then will there be that complete union and harmony that produces true art." - Page 191

"Believe me, you will never become a horseman if the only type of suggestions you are going to look for are such as these: "keep your heels down and hold your stirrups under the balls of your feet", "to start the canter on the right lead keep your right leg at the girth, while with the left leg etc., etc." These are secondary and elementary considerations. *In riding, as in everything else, an understanding of fundamental ideas is all important, while details like heels down don't make horsemen. Appreciation of the importance of the horse's balance is basic* and hence the whole of this chapter is devoted to it. There are no shortcuts, and to make your efforts in the saddle worthwhile you just have to learn the basic theory. To cheer you up - it is very simple." Page 31

Common Sense Horsemanship, VS Littauer​I'll go a bit further, and say there is artistry in knowing one's limitations. I will never be a great rider. I will never be a good rider. I started jogging at 14. I am now 57. I still love jogging every bit as much as riding, and jogging tends to create tight hips - and tight hips make for bad riding. During the first 20 minutes of a ride, my 57 year old body will be tight and tense in the saddle. 

Ideally, I would warm up before heading out. But Bandit likes to get out, and is frustrated if we start a ride doing arena work. So we head out, into the scary real world, riding on pavement. I look like a stiff, awkward fool - but I'm a stiff, awkward fool who has a happy horse - one who is learning confidence and trust, even if the monkey on his back is a stiff and uncomfortable monkey!

Horsemanship is practiced the way it is spelled - by putting "horse" before "man". A rider who does not work within his limitations, even if trying to stretch those limits, is not a horseman. Just a rider.

A good rider - a horseman - who wants to teach a horse to collect will get no disagreement from me. If one has the skill to do it, and a horse who is ready for it, then by all means - enjoy! I'll enjoy watching the result.

But a Craigslist rider of Craigslist horses - which seems as accurate a way of describing me as I know of - needs to adapt how he rides to how he CAN ride, or reasonably hope to! And a Craigslist horse may need many things taught before collection can properly be brought into the list. In fact, my Craigslist horses will probably ride fine for their entire lives without being trained for any degree of collection that they do not innately possess - which is more than many educated riders seem to be willing to admit horses have in them.

I have never had a "dressage lesson". But it seems to me that true dressage - and true horsemanship - is showing the horse that it will be happier moving well than moving awkwardly, and that "well" has a different meaning when a rider is on his back. It should be based more on trust and confidence than any position or "aid". It is a mental activity, not a physical one.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

The controvery/misunderstanding seems to come with an either-or (collected or not) rather than an "and". 

What I mean by that is the horse can carry himself collected when asked to do so AND also do so when the horse himself decides it benefits them.

The root of dispute seems to be whether or not collection should be asked for/taught by the rider rather in every case rather than "sought" and "found" by the horse themselves without intervention by the rider.

BSMS you are correct that it comes down to purpose, rider ability, motivation and conformation of the animal in question. 

For instance, Oliver sometimes finds collection for himself when we are out on the trails. Seemingly, when he has hit a sweet spot of movement in the trot on a long, wide open trail, it appears he finds efficiency in it. He almost seems to have "fun" with it. Whether or not he would ever seek it without having had some training towards it at some point, is up for debate. Cowboy almost never seeks it unless he is being asked to back up a hill or do a quick stop. May be due to a difference in conformation or training. Might be BOTH.

For Oliver (who is also literally a Craigslist horse), it seems to make many things easier for him so I do not feel bad when asking for it as it comes naturally to him in more than a few situations.

This is opposed to Cowboy (a highly bred horse with five AQHA hall of fame horses in the most recent generations on his pedigree) it seems to be a huge effort for him with only a few exceptions and since for our purposes, it isn't necessary, I don't ever bother to ask.

Of the two you would expect the pedigreed horse to be the one for whom collection comes easy so I tend to disagree with the premise that good breeding is a needed requirement for achieving "collection".


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## bsms

"Seemingly, when he has hit a sweet spot of movement in the trot on a long, wide open trail, it appears he finds efficiency in it. He almost seems to have "fun" with it."

This. It is (from what I've experienced) an in between thing...some collection (ie, SOME raising of the withers and SOME lifting of the back), and some horses seem to enjoy it. They have fun doing it. There is an increase in suspension. With Mia, my oldest daughter called it her "Happy Feet" trot, because she seemed to break into it spontaneously when in a good mood, with ears forward and looking ahead.

I guess I have two problems with Dressage, neither of which has to anything do with "dressage" itself:

1 - The belief that all horses need to do it, and

2 - The belief that new riders ought to be taught to try it.

After 7 years of riding, I might be capable, on my good days, of asking for some collection from a horse and encouraging it to be done, but if so...then barely. Unless one is born a genius, and few are, then it is something that requires the riding time needed to form a secure seat and, most importantly, an understanding mind: what James Fillis referred to as "Equine Tact" as far back as 1890.

Rembrandt could paint like this:








​ 
I'm lucky if I can paint the side of a house without it running. I couldn't even get it right with the old "paint by numbers"! Good dressage is like a Rembrandt. Bad dressage is like me trying to paint a Rembrandt.

Far from being the base which all riders should learn first, it is a branch that SOME riders should enjoy reaching after learning to ride with their minds. But bad theory, drilled into impressionable minds, leads to bad riding. One might luck out and achieve a good result, if the horse is uncommonly willing and capable, and if one is lucky, but the odds of success go up greatly if one starts with a solid foundation - a true understanding of what the horse actually does in motion.

BTW - my "Cowboy" is unlikely to ever collect noticeably. It would be like asking a tank to perform ballet.








​


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

The value I have found though in dressage is this: You are taught to communicate every movement of the various parts of the horse. I'll use my 12 yo daughter who is not an overly advanced rider as an example. 

As one example, she knows how to do more than simply ride forward and turn with balance and control at all three gaits... among other things, she has learned how to get a horse who is rubbernecking (moving forward, despite having a neck bent) to straighten up and fly right using leg cues alone at any speed where it might happen and the horse has learned to understand and respond to the cues. 

I do think on its basic levels it will help any rider seeking to improve skill sets or any horse in need of more disciplined focus. 

Though he will always look like Dolph Lungren trying to do ballet, even Cowboy (my 1300# 15.3 hh tank) 

http://www.horseforum.com/horses/photos/0855f76c166bbe276ff134d88a87a42a_full.jpg

has benefited from the use of riding with the basics of dressage which is much more than just collection. 

As another for-instance, one of the things my instructor teaches early on is three cues for turns, all turns are not equal and when cued properly from the seat and legs communicates far more than reins alone. When running poles for instance, I use one type of cue to weave through the poles (move the shoulder) and an entirely different leg cue to do the 180 degree turn around the end (move shoulder first followed by swinging the hind) each type of turn has come in handy at different times on the trail. Smilie would call that "body control" or good riding rather than "Dressage". 

BSMS, it seems your issue with big D Dressage, or more accurately the people who learn it is the 'tude that some have. Honestly I have encountered 'tude with colt starters, bronc riders, barrel racers and even "backyard" riders. But I don't see the individuals as indicative of an entire discipline. I would advise you don't throw the baby out with the bath water though. If you don't think of it as dressage per se and instead think of it as learning a new riding technique or gaining body control, perhaps you will find more value in it.


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## bsms

I have no objection to someone taking dressage lessons, or enjoying it or participating in it as a sport. But I don't think it has universal value.

Let me put it this way. A collected horse is supposed to be valued because a collected horse can change speeds, gaits, and turn quickly and easily. They have the balance and muscle to do so. And dressage - at least, based on some articles in the USDF magazine - says collection comes from getting the horse's energy to go from the hind legs, thru the back, then bounce off the bit, back into the rider, and then back to the horse's hind legs. I'm starting to think "The Circle of Energy" was intended for kangaroos. They don't use their front legs much, either..."Abstossen is a German riding term meaning “to push oneself off.” The offcial instruction handbook of the German National Equestrian Federation, Advanced Techniques of Dressage, states:

“Pushing off from the bit is a sign that the horse is fully accepting the contact.... [The horse] yields to the contact by bouncing back lightly and almost imperceptibly from the bit. The rider feels the contact become even lighter and more refined.... In a correctly trained horse which ‘comes through,’ bouncing back or pushing away from the contact is...a frequently repeated process....”

When a rider is well trained, the aids are very subtle and they happen every step of the way. At every stride the rider’s seat and leg give a small aid to encourage the horse to seek the contact by engaging his hind legs, lifting his shoulders and the base of his frame, and stepping into the bit. There is a moment when the horse is strong, and then the educated horse “pushes away,” which shifts weight to the hindquarters and causes the horse to become lighter in the hand."

The Heavy and the Light, USDF Connection​Now, here is my problem: I'm not God's Gift to Horses. I'm not a genius. I'm not and never will be a particularly good rider. I don't think I can use my hands and a bit to generate collection, or to use a bit so the horse "bounces off" the bit. 

But maybe I don't need to! If the goal of collection is not show, but to create a horse who can change paces, gaits, start, stop, and change directions with light cues and good balance, then maybe...

...Maybe I can simply focus on teaching a horse to change paces, gaits, start, stop, and change directions with light cues and good balance, and ACHIEVE collection!

By using hills to naturally shift the balance toward the rear, and letting the horse learn that acting that way can be fun, and by working on turns of various sizes and at varying speeds, and doing transitions in speed and gait...the end result should be a horse who can do those things. And I can teach all of those things with very little contact with the bit. I'm willing to bet I could teach most of them bitless, although bitless might be tough when Bandit gets to feeling competitive. But I don't need to be a great rider, or even a good one. I can let the horse's natural laziness teach him efficiency, and get enthusiasm via the nature of the horse:"...There is another thing to be considered with regard to the horse's character - *it loves to exercise its powers, and it possesses a great spirit of emulation; it likes variety of scene and amusement ; and under a rider that understands how to indulge it in all this without overtaxing its powers, will work willingly to the last gasp,which is what entitles it to the name of a noble and generous animal*...

..Horses don't like to be ennuye, and will rather stick at home than go out to be bored ; they like amusement, variety, and society : give them their share of these, but never in a pedantic way, and avoid getting into a groove of any kind, either as to time or place, especially with young animals. It is evident that all these things must be taken into account and receive due attention, whether it be our object to prevent or to get rid of some bad habit a horse may have acquired ; and a little reflection will generally suffice to point out the means of remedying something that, if left to itself, would grow into a confirmed habit, or if attacked with the energy of folly and violence, would suddenly culminate in *the grand catastrophe of restiveness*..."

On Seats and Saddles, by Francis Dwyer, Major of Hussars in the Imperial Austrian Service (*1868*)​The horse's nature will convince him doing things with me is fun, if I teach him in accordance with the horse's nature, while his laziness will convince him - without effort from me - to find an efficient way of having that fun. Instead of framing a horse, and teaching collection via "Abstossen", I can have fun with the horse and let him learn lightness and an acceptable degree of collection as a result.

Taught the way some dressage enthusiasts recommend, we would spend a few years working on collection so I can have a light and responsive horse. Instead, I plan to teach my horse to have a good time while being light and responsive, and learning how to turn and transition speeds and gaits. The result may be collection, but I'm focusing on the actual outcome I desire.

And I can do it even though my body is stiff, my balance marginal, and my training grounds frequently paved. All without bothering with containing my horse between the driving aids and the restraining aids, which sounds like a recipe for a frustrated and bitter horse in the hands of anyone who is not a genius.

Have fun with my horse. Let my horse have fun with me. And get the end result that is supposed to be why collection is valued. Dressage, meet Judo. Take the idea of dressage, flip it in a mirror, and achieve the result without exceptional ability or taking years of lessons.

Interesting theory. It might take me a year or two to find out if I'm right. But I really like what I've been seeing in Bandit so far!

However, I went for a run today instead of a ride. We're short handed at work this week, so I'll spend most all of the daylight hours for the next 6 days at work. So I figured...what's the point, if I won't be able to work with Bandit again until next Sunday at the earliest? So I tossed him and the others some timothy hay, and they were still eating when I finished 32 minutes of jogging. In truth, I doubt Bandit missed me all that much. But that is OK. He's a horse, and nothing says "I love you" like food...

:cheers:​


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Oh BSMS for Pete's sakes! You don't have to be an exceptional rider to teach the basic principles of dressage to a horse! It's just a name for riding in an environment that gives you and the horse a chance to concentrate on specifics and not worry about the unexpected and then testing yourself and your horse to make sure you both get it and it becomes automatic so that either of you don't have to think about it and communication is smooth when you need it.

Here is the patterns for the Ranch Horse Western Dressage tests.

http://www.northamericanwesterndres...anch-Style-Western-Dressage-Patterns-2016.pdf 

I think you are making it far too complex in your head . 

Something as simple as shoulder over....which I used multiple times just this morning riding on the trail to keep my head firmly attached to my shoulders vs having it knocked off by tree limbs...that is one of the principles learned in dressage and fundamental body control. 

Maybe you will get there on your own, but an instructor taught it to myself and Oliver in about five minutes. It wasn't something I learned on my own even after 30 years of experiential riding. It wasn't necessary. Why use it when I can use the reins? Now that I have it at my disposal, it is kind of like air conditioning. Didn't miss it until I had it and realized it's many uses.

We are to a point now where I can lope weaving through a grove of hanging branches or prickly pear or devil's walking sticks, never lift my reins off his whithers, switch leads and still not get knocked in the head or poked in the eye by a single stick. 

To watch it, you would think the horse is so amazing watching out for his rider's head like that! Ha! On occasion (like July 100 degrees and 70% humidity), I am sure Oliver is quite disappointed to realize at the end of the run I am still firmly attached to his back like the sticky leech that I am. 

In all seriousness though, Oliver and I really enjoy one another sometimes a little too much to the exclusion of the other people riding with us. It has been a good learning experience for both of us, not just me.

I ain't no spring chicken either (call me grandma x4) and I intend to learn as much about the things that I enjoy as I can and actually DO them, before I take a permanent dirt nap. So once a week I get off my duff, load the horse up, go to my trainer's and we ride.

We warm up in the arena, he gives me a few new things to try, we practice them and once Oliver understands and I am cuing correctly with some muscle memory, we then apply them out on the trails for a couple of hours, which by the time we get back, both of us have it reasonably solid. 

Then I come home and practice them with my horse the rest of the week, maybe head out to his place for a larger group ride on Sunday with my daughter and the horse she is being taught to train. 

My daughter's goal is to ride as much as possible.

My goal by late fall is to be ready to take Oliver through MSAR certification, mounted search and rescue. 

We had a neighbor lady 67 years old go missing last Saturday morning. She went out to look for her dogs who had gotten loose. The dogs came home and she did not. We helped look for her on foot on the mountain and the pros we were with located her shortly after we showed up to help. She had slipped on algae covered rocks and fell into a deep narrow canyon. She was bruised up and was unable to climb the slippery rocks back out. If that had been one of my kids or another's, I would want to do anything I could to help. 

I have always ridden for myself, so now I have a good horse and a few years left in me and I'm done dinking around, time to start applying what few skills I have to help others.

There is no way I could even think of doing MSAR if I had not learned those basic principles. Nothing worse than a rescue rider who ends up in need of rescue themselves or causes someone else to have problems. Who knows, that "dressage" stuff might even save a few lives before the year is out.

All I am trying to tell you is keep an open mind...pretty please? Not all dressage instructors are over paid eletists and not all dressage is useless dithering in circles.


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## egrogan

^^ I like how you put it Reiningcats

It seems to me that all riders starting out need some foundational blueprint to learn from. For many people around the world, that foundational set of principles, a common language, is dressage. That doesn't make it THE ONLY WAY, but it's a useful jumping off point.

I'm just a weekend warrior happy hacker type, but I'd describe my mare and I as doing basic dressage because it established an image in the mind of other horsey folks as having the ability at all paces of thinking about basic rhythm and suppleness, the ability to ride in a "connected" manner and thinking about impulsion and straightness. Now as a couple of out-of-shape middle aged ladies, do my horse and I generally achieve real impulsion and straightness on a given day? Nope, but it gives me an image in my mind of what it would take for both of us to use our bodies well-out on the trail I might add, not riding around endlessly in a ring.

I totally appreciate your point that not everyone has to aspire to Grand Prix level, and some of the concepts may be outdated, but I maintain the belief that a common language and generally accepted standard are helpful if you tend to ride on your own and don't get a lot of regular feedback from others about how to keep your horse moving well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms

"_It seems to me that all riders starting out need some foundational blueprint to learn from. For many people around the world, that foundational set of principles, a common language, is dressage. That doesn't make it THE ONLY WAY, but it's a useful jumping off point._"

Dressage, as a method of learning how to ride, suffers from some significant problems in its underlying theory. What are some of them?

1 - Constant contact. Why would anyone WANT constant contact? Why create "white noise" in the horse's mouth, that the horse needs to learn to ignore? And in what sense, then, is dressage teaching lightness? A magazine a few years back used sensors to see how much pressure a reiner used to stop a horse (in a snaffle) from a canter, and how much a dressage rider used. The reiner used about 5 lbs. The dressage rider had pulls in the 20-25 lb range.

This is what the rein pressure is when a dressage rider was examined:










Notice the slack rein pressure is about 1 lb, the 'light contact' bounced between 2-6 lbs, and a "half-halt" needed 8 lbs - because the horse had grown accustomed to a background pressure of 2-6 lbs.

An approach to riding which encourages constant contact, and "bouncing off the bit" as a goal of riding, leaves a lot to be desired.

That is why Littauer insisted new rider learn without constant contact. But Littauer never addressed WHY ANYONE would want to ride with constant contact.

2 - Head position. While dressage gives lip service to riding 'back to front', the accepted goal is to get the horse riding with a vertical headset. But a horse has limited binocular vision, and only a small area of truly good vision - and to see well, that requires freedom of head movement.

A horse-centric approach to riding would strongly encourage the horse to move its head as needed - both for balance and to see well. The FEI definition of "on the bit" requires putting blinders on the horse's eyes - blinders limiting his forward vision, which is worse than limiting it to the side. An approach to riding that praises a rider whose horse keeps its head vertical is a problem for me. Particularly for new riders.

3 - A book I have on dressage emphasizes the need to ride with your fists on the reins. Contact is to be maintained using the elbow and "supple shoulders". I've read - and been told on HF - that it is DANGEROUS to hold the reins in your fingertips, because your horse will rip the reins out of your hands.

Frankly, if my horse WANTED to rip the reins out of my hands, I'd have a problem!

4 - I've been told this is for control, and that it is dangerous to ride with slack reins on a road. Yet western riders ride by the roadside with slack reins all the time. Their horses don't go out of control

Indeed, the more I try it, the more I find that the BEST way to ride a horse past something scary is with slack reins, as Tom Roberts suggested. If the horse can't handle it, then the horse has not bought in to the idea that the thing isn't that scary, and/or that the rider knows what is scary or not.

This is my favorite picture of Mia & I riding:










My goal with Bandit is to ride like that. We have work to do, but we are getting there. Yet the dressage books tell me that is bad riding...

5 - Dressage is founded on the submission of the horse. "The acceptance of the bit, with submissiveness/throughness (Durchlässigkeit) without any tension or resistance... The Horse thus gives the impression of doing, of its own accord, what is required."

That is a bit nicer, but it really is founded on the idea of Master and Servant from Medieval times. Just as the commoner owed total obedience to his Lord, the horse (an inferior being) owed total submission to his master. The "masters" of the time were fine with beating a horse senseless, and the Duke of Newcastle recommended that a horse whose tongue hung out have the offending part removed with a red hot chisel.

Yes, I'm uncomfortable with a philosophy of riding based on total submission by the horse. Mia and Bandit both seem to be horses that resist total submission, and part of the pleasure of riding is teaching them that going along with my ideas works out well.

6 - "Rounding". I'm sick of that subject, but I have serious issues with an approach to riding that wants to contain the horse between the driving aids and the restraining aids. It might be a very good rider could do it well. I assume so, since some dressage riding is beautiful. But that is NOT an approach for someone starting off riding. I'm not convinced it is an acceptable approach at all. The horse lifts with withers by using energy. It does not bounce off the bit and go back to the rider, and then into the horse for recycling! It is USED, at the front end, to counteract gravity.

But that is not easy for the horse. And that is OK, except dressage is too often sold as something that makes the horse's life easier. Collection is supposed to make it easier to carry a heavy rider, yet NO horse, faced with the need to carry a very heavy rider, collects! 

I want to emphasize again that I have no trouble with an accomplished rider moving into these areas. If they can do it, and do it with a happy horse, I'm happy for them.

But as an approach to LEARNING riding...yeah, I think dressage is a poor way to start. As a normal way to ride...I have problems with it. I find it counterproductive to a good working relationship with a horse because it is rooted in the belief that the horse should have no say - that the horse, indeed, is incapable of thinking.

Jean-Claude Racinet wrote an excellent book, "Falling for Fallacies: Misleading Commonplace Notions of Dressage Riding". He was a huge dressage fan, and devoted his life to dressage. But he also admitted there were some serious problems with how people approached dressage, and he (like me) believed truth is found in testing and questioning, not simple acceptance of ideas.

"Twisted Truths of Modern Dressage: A Search for a Classical Alternative" by Philippe Karl is not nearly as good, but it also discusses some of the problems.

Here is another example: Mia did not know how to sidepass. Not in an arena. At least, I never got her to sidepass in an arena. Yet if we had a reason to move that way in the desert, she would do it. No problem. Maybe she had me buffaloed. Or maybe, as a thinking creature, she understood and worked with me when it made sense.

I think dressage has it backwards. Particularly in the hands of a common rider. You do not teach a horse collection to make it more athletic. You train it to be an athlete, and then collection - or sidepassing - might also happen. Or not. Because if the goal is an athletic horse, cooperating with the rider, then what does that have to do with putting a horse on the bit?

Riders do not round the horse's back, nor lift it. The HORSE adjusts its strides, and shifts its balance, in ways we have only recently been able to measure. The lift is the RESULT of strides and muscle work, not the CAUSE. Teaching the horse to be supple, or to change gaits freely, or to turn well, both slowly and at high speed - those are pretty easy to teach compared to framing a horse and containing him between the driving and restraining aids...all to supposedly get the same end result.

I think dressage training makes mountains out of molehills. And it needs to IF the goal is a high level of collection, such as would win in competition. But teaching a horse to use his rear end more can be done by riding him up hills. He will shift his balance automatically - no bouncing of the bit required. A horse learns to turn well by practicing turns, not by being "held together" by the rider.

Yet the language of dressage is ALL about the rider! The horse's energy will "spill out the front" if the rider doesn't hold it in. No understanding that there is someone ELSE there, the horse, and that the HORSE keeps the energy from spilling out. The HORSE holds himself together! The HORSE adjusts it strides. And on it goes.

For advanced riders, and maybe for intermediate ones - certainly for riders better than I am - dressage may be a worthwhile approach. But for a beginning rider, it has some serious holes in its approach to horses and riding.

BTW - when I work with Bandit in or near The Cones of Confusion, I am not practicing dressage. I'm just working on getting him to listen and to turn better. When we trot up a hill, I'm not teaching him collection. I'm just giving him exercise. When I try to get him to respond to finger pressure instead of arm pressure, I'm just trying to teach him confidence - not lightness. The language of dressage is all about control, and heavily focused on the rider. I think too many riders focus on themselves already, and beginning riders need to appreciate that they ride people. Not horses. People. People with four legs and big muscles, but people.

< / rant >

Yes, I may be having an overreaction. It happens sometimes. But when I post on HF, I often feel like Po in "Kung Fu Panda". The experienced riders set themselves up as "The Fabulous Five", and resent some dumb panda who intrudes in their closed world. After all, the panda has bad kata. What can anyone know in just 7 years?

But 7 years of riding people HAS taught me that I ride a person...


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## gottatrot

I don't want to clutter up your journal with a long post of my own opinions, but I put my own perspective on dressage in my journal, in case anyone wants to read it.
http://www.horseforum.com/member-journals/why-i-gotta-trot-645777/page8/#post8784162

It was particularly amusing for me to read that I seem confused about dressage terms due to the fact that I question them. I've studied dressage for years, and a quick glance at some of the books in my home library included:
"The Complete Training of Horse and Rider" by Alois Podhajsky, 
"Training the Horse In Hand: The Classical Iberian Principles" by Alfons Dietz, 
"Cross-Train Your Horse - Simple Dressage for Every Horse" by Jane Savoie,
"More Cross-Training" by Jane Savoie, 
"Horse Training In-Hand: A Modern Guide" by Ellen Schuthof-Lesmeister, which are just a few of my dressage based books.

Not to mention I have studied through many websites and resources completely more than once such as:
::: Sustainable Dressage - - Welcome to my Site about Sustainable Dressage! :::
Deb Bennett's theories of collection:
http://www.equinestudies.org/true_collection_2008/true_collection_2008_pdf1.pdf
Dr. Ritter's ideas of classical dressage:
Welcome to Artistic Dressage - Dedicated to the Preservation and Promotion of the Art of Classical Dressage
And I've been influenced some by the "Writing of Riding" blogger's opinions on dressage:
The Difference Between Classical and Competitive Dressage - Writing of Riding
And lately,
Science Of Motion™ Horse Trainer,Lameness ,Dressage Jumpers and 3 day event Horse Training
Just to name a few. 
Honestly, I own two dressage saddles at this moment.

When I found dressage probably about 23 years ago, it was something I loved, dreamed of, aspired to, watched constantly on videos, attended shows, went to clinics and began studying. Then began taking lessons as soon as I got my own horse about 13 years ago. It was not something I gave up on easily or decided one day to begin questioning. It has been a long, agonizing process to even allow myself to think that dressage might not be the center of all riding. So I definitely understand how others can think that way. I believe it can be an emotional attachment, almost a romantic feeling that people have toward dressage. Which is similar to natural horsemanship, and is also why many people say they "do dressage" just like they "do natural horsemanship," even if the people who are the real money makers in those disciplines would look down their noses at what these amateurs would call "dressage" or "round pen work."


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## Bondre

bsms said:


> But 7 years of riding people HAS taught me that I ride a person...


Yes indeed! But better be careful where you say this or some over-literal soul will accuse you of anthropomorphism and trot out the old "a horse is a 1000lb prey animal capable of killing you - it is NOT your friend". :shock:

I'd say that in seven years you've also learnt to sift through the available knowledge and discover the grains of true wisdom. Like Po?

I read your post right after reading Gottatrot's great post about dressage. No time to reply fully now but just wanted to say 

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

and thank you both for giving me some interesting stuff to think about while I'm milking the goats. Back later.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## egrogan

I appreciate your perspective BSMS. And I don't want to argue a subject that's been argued to death 

I do wonder though what you would introduce to a brand new rider who has no aspirations of showing as a set of "basic fundamentals" for riding? If not dressage principles (and I'm thinking of low on the training scale; collection, for example, is certainly not something to be introduced to a beginner) as the common language, then what instead? 

It's just hard for me to imagine coming to a hobby/sport/pursuit as a complete blank slate and having no guiding principles. I have a statistical/research background by training, and you come as a new student knowing some math concepts, some probability maybe, but as you learn to become a _researcher_ you are forced to subscribe to a "camp"- quantitative vs. qualitative, for example. You do have to decide what set of fundamentals you believe to move forward, even though you know there are other people on the "other side" equally as passionate about their chosen approach. Some of them can be real jerks and argue up and down that you're an idiot and their way is.the.way and others can understand why you believe in your approach but chose to go another way themselves. 

This dressage-as-fundamentals vs. something else feels like that argument. I guess maybe I'm just that kind of literal person, but it's hard for me to imagine someone brand new to riding not being introduced to some conceptual framework to start out- and of course, if they develop skill and aptitude, and a deeper understanding through their own experience, they can chose to go a different direction. But don't they have to have some fundamental blueprint first to know whether they accept or reject it?


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## egrogan

gottatrot said:


> So I definitely understand how others can think that way. I believe it can be an emotional attachment, almost a romantic feeling that people have toward dressage. *Which is similar to natural horsemanship, and is also why many people say they "do dressage" just like they "do natural horsemanship," even if the people who are the real money makers in those disciplines would look down their noses at what these amateurs would call "dressage" or "round pen work."*


Oh, yes, guilty as charged. Anyone who watches me ride Isabel would certainly have this reaction- we are just piddling around and it sure doesn't look pretty most days :wink: It may not be evident just by looking at pictures of Izzy and I, but I do think about these things while we're riding. Can I achieve real impulsion or straightness? Not most days. Partially because of the horse and her prior training, as well as her age and conformation. Partially because of my lack of skills and lack of experience riding with good instructors. But again, "doing dressage" gives me a mental image of using the body properly vs. being "strung out" (our more "natural" way of moving).


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## Bondre

bsms said:


> But as an approach to LEARNING riding...yeah, I think dressage is a poor way to start. As a normal way to ride...I have problems with it. I find it counterproductive to a good working relationship with a horse because it is rooted in the belief that the horse should have no say - that the horse, indeed, is incapable of thinking.


You've made some good points in this post; it would be very interesting to have a clean, one-to-one debate on the subject to see how a dressage practitioner would respond to your six points. However I guess that's unlikely to happen, as you'd very soon be up against the Famous Five again.

I am no dressage expert, but I think the way I learnt to ride in my youth was quite typical of the English scene and is interesting to consider. And yes, what you said about dressage being a poor approach to learning to ride (what I quoted above) is spot-on. Thinking about it with the wisdom of hindsight, and thanks to a wider understanding of the art of horsemanship, I see now that my teenage riding was all about CONTROL.

I had a horse and took lessons from my BO. I learnt flatwork and jumping (note we called it flatwork, although it was much the same as low -level dressage). I competed locally and hacked out (trail riding) extensively. I consider myself to have been a reasonably competent rider at a modest level.

But I in all those years of riding as a teenager, not once do I remember anyone talking about release. I was taught to ride with contact, but no-one ever said that the horse learns from the release from contact rather than the contact itself. We were always in our horses' mouths and were generally taught to be 'anal retentive control freaks' (I borrowed that coined phrase from Gottatrot's journal - superb!), always bossing our horses around with excessive cues when we were doing arena work.

My horse didn't like dressage and successfully resisted my continued attempts to get her off her forehand. Not surprising when I think about it now. As you have said, the contact becomes white noise, and my horse probably disregarded about 80% of the contact because it was always there (more or less), so why pay attention anyway? How was I ever going to get her to "round" her back and carry her head nicely when I was just adding leg to the already constant contact? No one taught me to release as a reward, so if my horse ever did actually try to tuck her head, she would have concluded that that was also the wrong answer seeing as no reward was forthcoming. I guess all she learnt was to lean on the bit and get heavier on the forehand instead of lighter.

(Fortunately for our combined sanity, we didn't do much 'dressage' together. We preferred jumping, particularly cross country, and did just the necessary flatwork to get our act together jumping.) 

I don't think my experiences of learning to ride the English way are atypical, nor do I believe that my BO was a specially bad instructor. 

I wish someone had taught me according to Gottatrot's fundamentals of riding, paraphrased from her journal:

1) Learn to dismount in varied circumstances
2) Develop a stable base and lower leg
3) Learn to balance and move with the horse
4) Learn to manage your reins, use contact only for a purpose (ie not just 'because') and always give a rapid release
5) Aim towards reducing leg cues and towards communicating with your seat and posture.

*Egrogan*, you questioned just how a beginner can learn if they don't have the fundamentals of basic dressage as a guide. This is a good question. Undoubtedly some 'ground rules' are necessary to point the way forward. Out of interest, could you give specific examples of the fundaments of dressage that you find useful as a guide in your riding? 

Your last sentence brings us back to Gottatrot's thread on round v. inverted movement. Not saying that Isabel moves inverted at all, but if it is more comfortable for her to move 'strung out', why do you imply that it is improper for her to move like that? 

Do you agree that Gottatrot's fundamentals are a valid alternative for riders that are looking for a different kind of relationship with their horse?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## egrogan

Bondre said:


> I wish someone had taught me according to Gottatrot's fundamentals of riding, paraphrased from her journal:
> 
> 1) Learn to dismount in varied circumstances
> 2) Develop a stable base and lower leg
> 3) Learn to balance and move with the horse
> 4) Learn to manage your reins, use contact only for a purpose (ie not just 'because') and always give a rapid release
> 5) Aim towards reducing leg cues and towards communicating with your seat and posture.
> 
> *Egrogan*, you questioned just how a beginner can learn if they don't have the fundamentals of basic dressage as a guide. This is a good question. Undoubtedly some 'ground rules' are necessary to point the way forward. Out of interest, could you give specific examples of the fundaments of dressage that you find useful as a guide in your riding?
> ...
> Do you agree that Gottatrot's fundamentals are a valid alternative for riders that are looking for a different kind of relationship with their horse?


Bondre, thanks for the direction to Gottatrot's "fundamentals" in her journal. I like those basics! And to be clear, I wasn't saying everyone needs _dressage_ as their basic blueprint- it's just that it's what's commonly taught as a set of basics to people I know. My question to BSMS and others was, if _not _dressage as the basics, then what? It is hard for me to accept that we just turn riders loose and say "find your own way and experiment with how to ride this horse." Maybe some of you lucky ones who grew up in the saddle had that freedom of experimentation, but for nonhorsey kids or adults, that doesn't seem realistic. 

OK, so having established that I'm not here to be a dressage purist, I'd say what appeals to me about dressage as a foundation, it's the foundational steps in the dressage training pyramid:
1. A rider should be in tune with a horse's rhythm. Are they moving smoothly with "true" gaits (i.e., 4 beat walk, 3 beat canter) in a consistent, rhythmic way? With beginners, this looks like asking them to close their eyes and feel the horse swinging underneath, moving towards being able to identify the footfalls underneath you without looking or having someone call it out for you. With more experienced riders, it's feeling those times when there's a "hitch" in gaits, asking the horse to keep a steady rhythm through varied terrain or changes of direction, etc. It means showing a "following" seat to not interfere with the horse's movement. 
2. A rider should feel relaxation in the horse when asking for transitions or changes of direction. I think "suppleness" is too advanced for a beginning rider, but a beginner should have the sense that the horse is comfortably, not clenched or braced. That includes through their hands and through their seat.
3. And finally, a beginning rider should understand "connection" and basic concepts of "contact." Connection is developing that feel of how you influence your horse with your body, including all aids. When you see beginners first experiment with asking the horse to "go forward," you'll see them kick at the horse's side and flap the reins on the horse's neck. So introducing the subtle use of the aids involves helping a rider see that they have a physical connection between multiple points of their body and the horse's body. When they put their hands on the reins, they have some contact, so thinking about sympathetic contact feels like an introductory concept to me. 

I don't think these ideas are unique to only dressage, but for me, the language I have to talk about them come from the "training pyramid." There's probably other language for it, that's sort of what I'm asking. If you don't frame it as "dressage fundamentals," that doesn't bother me because it's not that I'm saying dressage all or nothing. But that's my question, what are other people's fundamentals? Gottatrots fundamentals make a lot of sense to me, I like the emphasis on developing balance (I'd connect that to "rhythm" in my head).



Bondre said:


> Your last sentence brings us back to Gottatrot's thread on round v. inverted movement. Not saying that Isabel moves inverted at all, but if it is more comfortable for her to move 'strung out', why do you imply that it is improper for her to move like that?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


To me, strung out is different from the round vs. inverted thread (which I read with interest). Isabel is a shuffler. That is what's most comfortable for her, but if you look at her body, she's 22 now, and her topline shows it. A more skilled rider than me could help her "drive from behind" rather than drag her hind legs along without "tracking up," pulling her body on the forehand. That would be a better way to engage her muscle groups and help strengthen her weak back muscles.

All just my two cents, the "real" dressage riders would watch me ride and pick me apart. Like BSMS, I consider myself a purely pleasure rider (I like "happy hacker" if I have to assign myself a label :wink but I want to ride in a sympathetic way that keeps my older mare from being sore and resenting being asked to work. And the only terminology I have to describe that "sympathetic" approaches goes back to the dressage training scales, probably because the last consistent lessons I took as an adult re-rider were from a classical dressage rider herself and that's the language she gave me. She was a beautiful, soft rider whose horses loved to work and didn't show any of the horrific looks of the oft-ridiculed upper level dressage horses.


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## gottatrot

Egrogan,

I agree riders need some kind of basic principles to learn versus just going out there. I know some horses where you could just throw a beginner on, but with my two that would mean a bad experience for the rider, so that is one reason I have to teach others rather than just taking them out on a horse.
I like the concept of "tact" when riding, and my mare Amore insists a rider is tactful and not rude, otherwise she will revolt.

I should mention that while I don't find many dressage principles helpful for the rider, there are several I really do like and rely on when training horses.
Forward, Through, Rhythm, and Tempo.

Forward, to me means I teach a horse that they should move forward easily and freely without the rider nagging at them. It also means they push off strongly from the hind end rather than pulling with the front.

Through, to me means the horse follows direction of motion, in a bend or straightness through the entire body. If I ask for a turn, the horse follows around the circle through his body. So the horse is connected front to rear rather than disconnected.

Rhythm, to me means that the horse has true gaits as mentioned. A trot is 1-2-1-2. A canter is 1-2-3.

Tempo, to me means the horse can move his legs more slowly or faster within a gait and still keep a good rhythm and a true gait. I should be able to ask for a slow trot, extended trot, or good working trot. I should be able to ask for a slower canter or a more extended one. 

These are good things from dressage, but I find they are things to teach the horse more than the rider. Most horses have good rhythm unless they have physical issue or have been ridden with too much contact in my opinion.


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## knightrider

How I love these discussions! I love the way people can express their valid opinions and others listen to them and comment.

Years ago, I attended a clinic by a dressage rider, and she told me, "Ya ride like a d#%n foxhunter." Which made sense because I WAS a foxhunter, and had been since I was 14. I wanted my horse to take me through any country we came across and jump any jump in our way. I didn't want to guide or control my horse. I wanted to sit up there and enjoy the hunt.

When she was teaching me about contact, she explained that contact was like dancing. If your partner holds you far away, barely touching you, the dance is awkward and jerky. If your partner (the leader, the man) holds you firmly, you can follow effortlessly. My husband was a wonderful dancer and made every woman he danced with look good. I really understood that analogy.

So I am sharing it with you. If you think of contact like the lead dancer, the rider and horse can move more effortlessly.

All these years later, I am still a "happy hacker". I would love to have riding lessons, however. It would be great to be better than I am. At least I have excellent journals like this to read and think about.


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## bsms

For approaches to learning:

In Common Sense Horsemanship, Littauer argued for 3 levels of control. He wrote it after training hundreds if not thousands of students how to jump. The first level, Elementary, used the western approach to contact - as little as possible while going places. For Intermediate control, the rider would use much more frequent contact...maybe 50% of the time. It was only something a person would start doing after riding enough to be comfortable hacking and jumping. Advanced control meant dressage sort of contact, and was something few riders would need.

He also wrote that 90% of hacking could be done well at the Elementary level, including jumping fences.

For learning to ride, taking the simple level of cues used by Littauer's Elementary control would work. I would go further, and expect most beginners to learn either with a sidepull in an arena, or with a bit 'hacking'. What I told a first time rider last fall was to hold Trooper's reins in one hand. For turning, move the hand left or right. To go faster, make a kissing sound, give a little squeeze with the legs and hold the hand a little forward. For slowing or stopping, settle back and bump the reins, with a bump meaning to just take the slack out with a backward motion. If Trooper was more excited, bump firmer.

Trooper being Trooper, they went out for a 2.5 hour ride and he got his first trot and canter in, including going cross country in the desert. Not everyone gets to learn on a "Trooper"...but it is nice. He got to see Bandit acting up some under another friend, and talked with him and my daughter about how horses think.

That would be a pretty typical "first ride" for a visitor to a ranch. When I visited ranches 30-40 years ago, not knowing how to ride, that is what I was told. 

When starting a horse, both some dressage books I had recommended to me on the dressage subforum and Littauer and Chamberlin's books on starting horses emphasized "Forward, Calm and Straight". As I tried to apply that to Bandit, I modified it to "Forward and Confident". "Straight", as used in dressage, included doing turns in an upright fashion, with the hind legs following the path of the front ones. It requires turns to teach, and is one of the thing we are working on now. Based on playing with it while working Bandit, I would say a horse who is starting, or a horse who needs to start all over again (Bandit), should be trained:

1 - Forward and Confident. I like "confident" instead of calm, because a deadhead can be 'calm', but neither trusting nor eager. "Confident" emphasizes that the horse needs to learn to trust his rider AND trust himself, and the result should not be a slow horse but an eager and happy one:








​ 
Once a horse and rider make progress there, they can move to:

2 - Balanced and responsive. Balance would include both turning while vertically upright (mostly at slower speeds, as used in dressage) and digging in (as used in barrel racing). Those are very different ways of getting around something.

The upright approach requires the horse to shorten his wheelbase (part of what dressage refers to under collection) because a short wheelbase car is more maneuverable in a parking lot, and a short wheelbase horse (so to speak) is more maneuverable at slower speeds.

But speed requires the horse to lengthen his wheelbase. By definition, you cannot go fast without covering a lot of ground quickly, and that requires stretching out. But to turn in that situation requires the horse to dig in and shove his front sideways. It is the only way to turn fast while running hard:










BTW - just noticed the RIDER's foot position. Works well for me. I doubt The Fabulous Five would approve, or approve of this:








​ 
Just as a motorcycle cannot turn fast without leaning, a horse cannot:








​ 
_Emory H. Sager, of the Shoe Bar, on "Old Blue" his favorite cutting horse, working the herd out on roundup grounds. Shoe Bar Ranch, Texas_, 1912

From a great website: Erwin E. Smith Collection Guide | Collection Guide​ 
Responsiveness comes from the horse listening. That is why I use the "cones of confusion". Since I don't know which way we are going to turn, or how sharply, or how long, until we are a second from doing it, the horse cannot anticipate. Thus he learns to listen. Bandit can listen to my leg, or to a neck rein, or to a direct rein. He gets those choices in that order, and the little practice we've been able to get in shows he, like Mia before him, likes getting it done with the least amount of mouth pressure possible. But since he doesn't always listen, he doesn't always get light cues. But the level of pressure required is up to him, and I think he will soon get more responsive.

One teaches a horse to be responsive by giving it a chance to respond at light cues before harder ones in the arena, and by showing good judgment on the trail (so the horse sees VALUE in listening to the 'monkey on his back').

The same applies to transitions in speed. You teach a horse to be responsive to soft cues by giving him the option to respond to soft cues, foll wed by using stronger cues if required. And you prevent resentment by doing just a few turns or changes in speed, not hard enough to provoke the horse, and then giving the horse a chance to go straight and relax. How one actually DOES that is the art - equine tact. We teach horses to trust us. They teach us, if we listen, equine tact. Mutual learning, and both sides will make mistakes sometimes.

Now, just as a horse needs 3-4 months to learn the basics if started from scratch, and just as a horse relearning may need a year or more, the RIDER needs time to lay a good base. That time does not come from riding in circles with someone pushing you to "progress". It comes best, I suspect, from a good horse and time spent riding.

But lessons are not set up that way. The US Cavalry had what I consider an ideal lessons system. The instructor would give 5-10 minutes of instruction while the students sat on their horses. Then they would go ride for 1-2 hours on paths intended to emphasize doing what was said during the instruction.

If you ride circles in an arena, with an instructor giving instruction, then how do you learn to listen to the horse? The "instructor" is "teaching" you, and you are paying for THAT instruction. When do you get to simply listen to the horse?

Littauer wanted his students to be able to jump 3 foot fences in 12-15 lessons. That is one of the places where I part company with him! I think that is silly and counter-productive. But then, what instructor can stay in business teaching students to spend 6-12 months getting to know horses, and emphasizing balance while riding bitless? Where do you get the show record that will encourage people to think you are an expert who deserves to be listened to?

I don't know.

As for position:








​
Jane Savoie (sp?) did that. I disagree to the extent that I think #3 also works well in some situations...or would, if the rider in ALL her pictures would get the heck out of the horse's mouth and hold the reins with her FINGERS!

This was adapted from the US Cavalry manual:








​
The forward seat and the old western seat both have value:











Erwin E. Smith Collection Guide | Collection Guide​
Both offer a greater base of support front to back than the dressage seat. If your horse explodes forward or stops without asking, a longer base of support will help. The smaller dressage base of support is fine on a well mannered horse, or one who is doing the up-down motion of "collected" gaits.

On a bolting horse, it leaves the stirrups too long to help you stay balanced on the horse, unless you adopt a vertical V, using the old cowboy leg combined with a forward leaning body - something I adopt for 2-point with Bandit when using a longer leg. However, I've also shorted my stirrups a little because reaching for the stirrups means you don't have them to help when things get rough. And EVERY rider, starting off, should learn a position that keeps them on when things get rough because every rider who keeps riding will eventually be in that spot!

I part company with gottatrot's list in this: Where I ride, an emergency dismount will almost always mean a serious injury. So I don't learn it. Can't. No where to practice it without needing an ambulance nearby. Dismount here, and you either hit pavement, rocks or cactus. Probably two of the three. This is about as good as it gets:








​
But apart from that, I like her list. I just don't know how a paid instructor would be able to attract students...:icon_rolleyes:


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## bsms

"_When she was teaching me about contact, she explained that contact was like dancing. If your partner holds you far away, barely touching you, the dance is awkward and jerky._"

I've heard that analogy, but it falls apart because I don't dance with my wife by putting a piece of metal in her mouth and then pull on it for "contact". We have BODY contact, just as we have with the horse. And THAT is dancing.

Based on the only instance I've found where constant yet gentle contact by a skilled rider was measured...it doesn't exist. The rider may THINK is is even and gentle, but the "not asking anything" pressure spikes have greater pressure than a reiner uses when stopping a horse in a snaffle from a canter!

It would be interesting to see a man and woman both bite down on the ends of a 3 foot long rope, and try to dance with constant yet gentle pressure, giving pleasure to both. But I'd rather take her in my arms, or my horse in my legs, so to speak. And just to make it clear, I am NOT criticizing knightrider! The idea that collection lessens pressure on the horse's front legs sounds pretty good until you measure the pressure on the horse's front legs and find it increases peak impact. "Rounding" sounds really good, and it is taught by thousands, and the USDF talks about it and "Abstossen":
_"Abstossen is a German riding term meaning “to push oneself off.” The offcial instruction handbook of the German National Equestrian Federation, Advanced Techniques of Dressage, states:_

_ “Pushing off from the bit is a sign that the horse is fully accepting the contact.... [The horse] yields to the contact by bouncing back lightly and almost imperceptibly from the bit. The rider feels the contact become even lighter and more refined.... In a correctly trained horse which ‘comes through,’ bouncing back or pushing away from the contact is...a frequently repeated process....”_​It is the language rider's learn, but who would dance if they needed to "Abstossen"?

And think about this:

_Pushing off from the bit is a sign that the horse is fully accepting the contact

_If the horse was fully accepting, why would he push away? We push away from things we dislike, not from things we enjoy...


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> 1 - Forward and Confident. I like "confident" instead of calm, because a deadhead can be 'calm', but neither trusting nor eager. "Confident" emphasizes that the horse needs to learn to trust his rider AND trust himself, and the result should not be a slow horse but an eager and happy one:


I like confident more than calm too. For one thing, some horses just won't ever be what some would call "calm." So I don't place so much importance on goals that are possibly unattainable. Confidence is attainable.


bsms said:


> 2 - Balanced and responsive. Balance would include both turning while vertically upright (mostly at slower speeds, as used in dressage) and digging in (as used in barrel racing). Those are very different ways of getting around something.
> BTW - just noticed the RIDER's foot position. Works well for me.
> Just as a motorcycle cannot turn fast without leaning, a horse cannot.


That's so interesting about leaning. It was something I just learned a few years ago, how to balance when the horse leans around a corner. If you weight 125 lbs and are on a 16.3 hand horse, you can ride that horse around a corner pretty much any way you want and it won't affect him. But if you're 125 lbs and on a 13 or 14 hand horse, you better balance right or you'll pull the horse off his feet. You can match his angle if he leans some, or you can keep your body slightly more vertical than his. But you better not try to either match his angle if he's leaning nearly horizontal, or sit very upright while he leans nearly horizontal. Either one will "lay it down" as they say about motorcycles. 
I've "laid down" a horse while learning this, and I've seen someone else do it too. 

I believe that foot position is what keeps the stirrups on when you're wearing cowboy boots and going fast. I've tried the heels down/balls of the feet in the stirrups in boots and stirrups without grip, and your feet just slide back out. It's effective with that type of gear, and the principle is the same...keep the stirrups on. But with a wider stirrup footbed and taller heel than most english stirrups and boots, it's still unlikely your foot will drop through and get stuck.



bsms said:


> I part company with gottatrot's list in this: Where I ride, an emergency dismount will almost always mean a serious injury. So I don't learn it. Can't. No where to practice it without needing an ambulance nearby. Dismount here, and you either hit pavement, rocks or cactus. Probably two of the three. This is about as good as it gets:


Not trying to argue but there are several types of "emergency dismounts" that are good to know. One most basic one is just knowing how to get off in a somewhat "regular" manner but very fast. This involves knowing how to push yourself up off the horse's neck or withers or pommel with your hands while simultaneously kicking your foot out of the right stirrup and putting all your weight in the left. A quick "hop" kicks the left foot off and you jump to the ground. 








If you have six inches of ground next to the horse you could stand on, you can pull this off (demonstrated below by someone very good at it). 








And the reason I like to have people I teach "practice" it, say in a corral at the walk, is because I've seen many people I'm riding with freeze up because they always stop their horse and get off very methodically and slowly, so when a quick thinking situation comes along where they could hop off and be much safer, they hesitate. If I'm riding along a quiet asphalt road and suddenly a military convoy appears with extra wide vehicles and clattering metal chains, I can be off within 5 seconds and controlling my horse from the ground. 

Another style that "might" not work in some places but is still good to know is one that is used when you're already falling off your horse. That's why I feel it's important, is because you're already coming off, so it helps control the where and when of it. That one I usually have people practice bareback because it's easier to learn that way. You walk along in an arena, then lean all the way forward so you're hugging your arms around the horse's neck, with your head on one side. Then you slide your right leg over and slide to the ground. This is one I've used when a horse has bucked me way out of position and I'm forward and off to one side, coming off. Hugging the neck allows you to get your legs free, and you often can cling to the horse long enough to choose where to land. 

A friend of mine is very good at this dismount and I saw her once clinging to the side of her cantering horse and waiting until she cleared some gravel and a few big rocks, then she released onto a patch of grass. At that point she was only a couple feet off the ground. Another time I saw her mess up a jump and most of her body was up on the horse's neck. She again picked her spot and avoided a large stump, landing in grass. What is important about it is you can get your head up above your body, and you can often get your legs off and under you, or else you can roll as you land to take less impact on one area of your back. 
But to practice the skill, you just need to learn the feel of how it feels to lay flat on the horse while clinging to the neck, and how to swing your legs off and land on the ground. 

Anyway, I have never practiced any type of emergency dismount myself that involved hitting the ground with my body or rolling, I always practice landing on my feet. But I can say getting my body used to these motions has helped me feel confident that A) I can get off quickly when needed, B) That I will have some control, and also I have instinctively used the fast dismount more than once and found myself running next to my horse with only a vague idea of how I got there. 

Because they have saved my bacon more than a few times, I highly recommend even one or two sessions of practicing them. Kids can pick the techniques up so fast, they can usually learn in one 15 minute session.


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## bsms

In a bad spot with Mia, this worked: I pulled her head around (she would follow her head), put a loop of the reins around the horn, and quickly dismounted. It took her about 1.5 seconds to get straight enough to take off, and it took me about 1.25 seconds to dismount. 

In a really dangerous situation, I'd have to learn by doing at the time. Jumping off a moving horse is almost certainly going to injure me no matter where I ride around here, so practicing is not an option. Not unless I'm willing to take a chance on a hospital trip.

If you can grab a saddle horse, then you can stay on most horses. You can get way off balance to the side and still get back on. In a saddle without a horn, I've watched my oldest daughter slow slide further and further to one side until she tumbled off. Once she was far enough over, I don't think staying on was an option. Had she been in the saddle I use now, it would have been easy.

Bucking is an exception. The rancher who raised Trooper said he would bail off if the horse was about to go off a cliff or cross a busy highway, but he also said every bad injury he or his kids have had on a horse came getting off a moving one. We had a long phone conversation after I got hurt trying to dismount Mia while she was still terrified (bad idea!) He said that if you keep riding, and balance with the horse and don't meddle with the horse, the horse will ALMOST always keep its feet.

I've seen Mia fall at a gallop (twice) without a rider on level ground, so I know it isn't 100%. I've seen Trooper slip on mud and go down riderless. So it is certainly NOT a 100% rule. 

But that is where folks need to assess their risk on their own. I wear a helmet. Others don't. Some people wear body protectors. I don't. If I had the kind of arena the riding stables around here have, with deep soft ground, I'd try it. It sounds like a good thing to learn. But my little arena is almost as hard as the pavement. I've jumped off of Mia when she was stopped (when the saddle slid onto her side and it was NOT going to be righted!) - and hitting the ground like that in our arena left me sore for two weeks. Maybe knowing an emergency dismount would have helped. But one foot was in the stirrup level with Mia's back, the other was free, and Mia was going to explode the moment I made a move - so I just leaped to get clear of her hooves, and rolled further away.

BTW - this thread got me thinking:

http://www.horseforum.com/new-horses/do-safe-horses-novice-riders-exist-688442/page2/#post8803554



bsms said:


> ...Last fall, a guy came out who had never been on a horse. At 6'5", he was WAY too tall for 13.0 hand Cowboy, and he looked pretty ridiculous on 14.3 hand Trooper. Our 16" western saddle was too small for him as a rider, too. But after 5 minutes of advice, he went out for a ride with another friend and my youngest (who was on Cowboy). They rode for 2.5 hours, did walking, trotting and cantering. They picked their way across the desert for a while. Come back with everyone safe & happy. The horses were fine, although I'm pretty sure Trooper was tired. We gave him the next week off, although he didn't act sore. But the new rider had no fear, so Trooper had no problems cantering with him - on the guy's first ride.
> 
> There may be a big difference between personal horses (which I own) and lesson horses. Maybe an even bigger difference between personal horses ridden on trails and lesson horses in an arena. A horse who has been ridden consistently by one person for the last 40 rides will pretty much behave the same for anyone on ride 41. At least, that is what I've seen. Horses who carry 15-20 different riders every week may have a very different attitude.


Reading about horses testing people, and how they often need 'tune ups' by 'good riders' made me wonder. I just haven't seen it with my horses. Once in a while, we'll have an animated discussion (argument) about what to do next, but they never act like they want me off their backs.

Lots of "experienced riders" start by riding lesson horses. They later GIVE lessons on lesson horses. And many of them assume bad behavior and bad intentions I just don't encounter, not to any real degree.

Could it be that people who start by taking lessons on lesson horses, who then go on to show and compete, and eventually give lesson on lesson horses, are telling what really HAS happened to them - *because they have spent a lifetime riding horses who are largely sour and unhappy*?

Could it be they worry about horses ripping the reins out of their riders' hands because they have been around unhappy and unwilling horses - their entire lives? 

My horses ignore my riding slightly tilted. They accept me and just set the 0 or neutral position as what I do, and adjust from there. Maybe a lot of experienced riders with a long show and competition record have reset their expectations of horses based on an abnormal situation - or abnormal to me!

If I need to work on Bandit, and I do, I have YEARS to do it! If I needed to "tune up" a lesson horse...well, I couldn't take 4 months to do it and it would be undone as soon as the students started doing whatever caused the problem in the first place.

Cowboy was free because he was a naughty lesson horse. Rebellious, too. But after living here 3 years, rarely being ridden, he is the horse I would be most willing to trust my life to on a trail ride. Very sensible. Very level-headed. Works with any rider who is willing to work with him. But he WAS a bitter and unhappy horse when he arrived, and I suspect he'd be a handful if I asked him to become a lesson horse again. Put him in an arena with 6 other lesson horses, and I bet he WOULD be a stinker!

But on the trail, with one of the big horses, he's a very solid citizen.

Could it be that my experiences with Mia were so different from "The Fabulous Five" because Mia and I were friends first? Could it be that by buying a horse and then learning riding, I was learning to ride a horse who was...normal? If, that is, Mia could be considered "normal"...

:think:​


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

bsms said:


> Reading about horses testing people, and how they often need 'tune ups' by 'good riders' made me wonder. I just haven't seen it with my horses. Once in a while, we'll have an animated discussion (argument) about what to do next, but they never act like they want me off their backs.
> 
> Lots of "experienced riders" start by riding lesson horses. They later GIVE lessons on lesson horses. And many of them assume bad behavior and bad intentions I just don't encounter, not to any real degree.
> 
> Could it be that people who start by taking lessons on lesson horses, who then go on to show and compete, and eventually give lesson on lesson horses, are telling what really HAS happened to them - *because they have spent a lifetime riding horses who are largely sour and unhappy*?
> 
> Could it be they worry about horses ripping the reins out of their riders' hands because they have been around unhappy and unwilling horses - their entire lives?
> 
> My horses ignore my riding slightly tilted. They accept me and just set the 0 or neutral position as what I do, and adjust from there. Maybe a lot of experienced riders with a long show and competition record have reset their expectations of horses based on an abnormal situation - or abnormal to me!
> 
> If I need to work on Bandit, and I do, I have YEARS to do it! If I needed to "tune up" a lesson horse...well, I couldn't take 4 months to do it and it would be undone as soon as the students started doing whatever caused the problem in the first place.
> 
> Cowboy was free because he was a naughty lesson horse. Rebellious, too. But after living here 3 years, rarely being ridden, he is the horse I would be most willing to trust my life to on a trail ride. Very sensible. Very level-headed. Works with any rider who is willing to work with him. But he WAS a bitter and unhappy horse when he arrived, and I suspect he'd be a handful if I asked him to become a lesson horse again. Put him in an arena with 6 other lesson horses, and I bet he WOULD be a stinker!
> 
> But on the trail, with one of the big horses, he's a very solid citizen.
> 
> Could it be that my experiences with Mia were so different from "The Fabulous Five" because Mia and I were friends first? Could it be that by buying a horse and then learning riding, I was learning to ride a horse who was...normal? If, that is, Mia could be considered "normal"...
> 
> :think:​


I see where you are going here and you have an idea going down the right track. Most of the lesson horses have problems. Because any time you ride a horse you are training them for better or worse, by putting sometimes upwards of 50 different people in a week on a horse they learn the good with the bad as well as to ignore a lot of static and inadvertent cues, which often can make them less responsive over time. 

This is often especially true of horses used primarily as beginner or novice horses. They often get ridden too much (most of the riders at a barn are novices) and have to literally earn their keep or they are sold. 

Boarding barns do not make a profit from boarding, they make a profit on lessons. It is a business. So is showing, barrel racing, ranch work, training...it is a different world altogether than deriving nothing more than pleasure from your horse and can be hard for one side to relate to the other, but IMO they should still respect each other. 

In that it vein of respect, it is one thing to ride your own horses and only your own horses. They get used to the way you do things, you get used to the way they do what they do and both of you know how to respond to each other quite nicely it is a partnership. 

It is a different kind of rider with a different goal and skillset who can get on any horse sight unseen, no matter how trained or untrained, sour or happy and get it to perform to its correct training in a matter of minutes. Quickly, effectively, even if it isn't exactly the ideal for what a recreational owner might seek in their own relationship with their horse. 

As an example we are boarding a brood mare, who's owner (who will be graduating from HS in June) would like to start riding her on trails. The rider does not have a lot of experience, the horse has quite a bit, but is 8 years rusty at pasture. 

This horse bolted off with the last owner through a barbed wire fence trying to get back to her baby who was freaking out. (Stupid people) and it has the current owner a little spooked I think. 

My trainer suggested to the owner, that she allow me to ride the mare and tune her back up for about a month, at which time the owner should be able to handle her. 

I will not be trying to form a bond with this horse as she is not mine, but I will be trying to refresh the horse's memory and gain a cooperative attitude. I won't have endless time to spend analyzing the horse, it has to be precursory and then get down to brass tacks of actual doing. I need to turn what could be a problem horse into a novice ready horse fairly quickly. It is a very different goal than I have with Oliver. I am getting her ready to bond with someone else.

Mentally for me, it isn't all that different than what I used to do with troubled children. Teach them so that they can cope successfully with life in society and then let them go, knowing you will probably never know what became of them. With my own children, I did the same but obviously had more time and emotion invested in it and got to see the results.


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> The rancher who raised Trooper said he would bail off if the horse was about to go off a cliff or cross a busy highway, but he also said every bad injury he or his kids have had on a horse came getting off a moving one. We had a long phone conversation after I got hurt trying to dismount Mia while she was still terrified (bad idea!) He said that if you keep riding, and balance with the horse and don't meddle with the horse, the horse will ALMOST always keep its feet.
> 
> I've seen Mia fall at a gallop (twice) without a rider on level ground, so I know it isn't 100%. I've seen Trooper slip on mud and go down riderless. So it is certainly NOT a 100% rule.
> 
> But that is where folks need to assess their risk on their own...


That is good advice. I wanted to share techniques in case they might be helpful, but different environments, different sizes of horses and riders etc can change generalities. 
I've never bailed intentionally off a horse going faster than a trot. Just like with skiing, once you hit a certain speed you're usually safer trying to stay up/on. It does help my peace of mind to know that when I've been on a horse that fell down it was not as bad as I feared. Those were actually some of my better falls, due to the horse being quite close to the ground when you actually separate. Plus the forces tend to thrust you off away from the horse.


bsms said:


> Reading about horses testing people, and how they often need 'tune ups' by 'good riders' made me wonder. I just haven't seen it with my horses. Once in a while, we'll have an animated discussion (argument) about what to do next, but they never act like they want me off their backs.
> 
> Lots of "experienced riders" start by riding lesson horses. They later GIVE lessons on lesson horses. And many of them assume bad behavior and bad intentions I just don't encounter, not to any real degree.
> 
> Could it be that people who start by taking lessons on lesson horses, who then go on to show and compete, and eventually give lesson on lesson horses, are telling what really HAS happened to them - *because they have spent a lifetime riding horses who are largely sour and unhappy*?


That is a sad commentary, which might often be true. 
Honestly, what lesson horses are subjected to is quite unfair. It's no wonder they get skeptical and suspicious. Why would they accept any rider at face value? They're probably confused and unhappy a lot of the time. 


> (Reiningcatsanddogs) It is a different kind of rider with a different goal and skillset who can get on any horse sight unseen, no matter how trained or untrained, sour or happy and get it to perform to its correct training in a matter of minutes. Quickly, effectively, even if it isn't exactly the ideal for what a recreational owner might seek in their own relationship with their horse.
> 
> ...I will not be trying to form a bond with this horse as she is not mine, but I will be trying to refresh the horse's memory and gain a cooperative attitude. I won't have endless time to spend analyzing the horse, it has to be precursory and then get down to brass tacks of actual doing. I need to turn what could be a problem horse into a novice ready horse fairly quickly. It is a very different goal than I have with Oliver. I am getting her ready to bond with someone else.


That's good. I wouldn't say I try to "form a bond" with horses I ride that I don't know, as mentioned above either. But yet even on a single ride we develop a respectful relationship with one another. It's like going out for coffee with someone you just met. Hopefully you get along great, and by the end you've found out a few things about each other. You communicate and reciprocate. With horses, I tend to admire the qualities I find. What a great new person!


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## bsms

I"ve told this story before, but it fits:

When taking lessons for a few months years ago, I was cleaning out the hoof of the horse I was going to ride. He got off balance and I shoved my shoulder into his hip to steady him, and kept it there while lowering his foot. Then I let him rebalance on his own. He actually turned his head all the way around and stared at me. It was as if he was shocked that someone would do that for him.

By the time I mounted up, he was showing interest. Before long, the instructor said he was "cheating" - that he knew what the points of the exercises were and he was making sure we did it, even if I wasn't doing it right.

She also said it was very unusual for him. I rode him a couple more times, and I think we both enjoyed it, but then I stopped being assigned him because 'the horse is helping you too much'. Which might be true in terms of learning "cues', but still...we were having fun riding together.

I don't teach riding. No one watching me ride would be tempted to pay me for lessons. I do sometimes GO riding with new riders, and we talk about horses. It seems to me that instead of teaching "DRESSAGE is the basis of all good riding", folks should say "Understanding the horse is the basis of all good riding" - and then lessons should focus as much on making it reasonable to the horse as "position".

For example, a lot of strange horses seem to respond well if I follow some advice from Chris Irwin - he used to have great free videos available on statelinetack.com. When approaching a strange horse, he said, approach from a 45 degree angle, and pause and hold out your arm and hand for a moment. When the horse moves its nose a little towards you, proceed. He said that was the polite way to enter a horse's "space".

Yet lessons are often given on horses already tacked up! Or they say, "Go get your horse...." and never talk about how to get the horse and halter them and lead them in a way that the horse will consider 'polite'. Yet even a jaded lesson horse can respond better if treated with some respect.

A few years back, we had a French exchange student for a month. While I was gone, my wife let him try riding Mia. I was not a happy camper when I got back. Mia wasn't thrilled either...but she also seemed to recognize he was trying, and she made far more allowance for him than she would for me. Pinned ears, but she was trying hard!

My son's two rides on a horse were both on Mia...and she tried very hard. She wasn't having fun, but again - he was trying, and she realized that, and she was VERY patient with him!

I've read dressage books that claimed the cues used in dressage were "natural", and that ALL horses INSTINCTIVELY understood them. When I tried them on my three, I found three horses who apparently were unnatural. They didn't have a clue what I was trying to do. I eventually concluded that almost no cues are instinctive to a horse. They are all LEARNED cues. 

Shouldn't beginning lessons mention that? Shouldn't someone be told that if their horse is acting up, to see if they are giving conflicting cues, or a cue the horse doesn't understand? Shouldn't the idea that we are training a horse every time he sees us, and we need to train him RIGHT every time (if possible), be drilled into every new rider? Yet that concept is rarely discussed in books. It wasn't discussed in the lessons I took. And it is contradicted by claims that certain cues are just "natural".

Littauer argued that riding should focus on BALANCE, not POSITION. He was right, but shouldn't beginning lessons also focus on the horse? Why is it the "Fabulous Five" type riders go bonkers if I say that we never control the horse's body, we only influence the HORSE'S MIND, and that the horse's MIND controls the horse's BODY? Why do many top trainers and clinicians talk about "body control" instead of "influence"?

Why is it considered radical and weird to say that the first thing one does with a bolting horse is "keep riding", and the second thing one does is try to turn the bolting horse into a running horse - because *"no one has ever stopped a bolting horse, only a horse who has stopped bolting*"? Advice, BTW, that I came across in a book on dressage, but that matches my experiences extremely well. 

Shouldn't it be obvious to an experienced rider that you cannot cue a horse who is out of his mind with fear, so the first thing (besides staying on) is to get the horse calm enough to listen? But of course, that will never be needed if you have "body control". 

I just need to figure out how to plug my brain into the horse's body! :icon_rolleyes:


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

GottaTrot, 

I would buy this mare in an instant and I prefer geldings, so that is saying something about what kind of horse I think she could be. 

Coming in, the horse was all but sold in the owner's mind, but with a little basic groundwork I have done, she has become "nicer" and now I think owner is contemplating keeping her. So I can't afford to get emotionally vested, I can like her, communicate with her, but cannot get attached. 

From the human aspect, the relationship you have with people when in a therapy situation is hard for a lot of people to understand. Clients share the most intimate details of their lives with you, things that no one else might know, but as a professional, you have to balance between compassion, empathy and objectivity and keep your own emotional baggage out of it.

You need them to trust you without becoming dependent upon you, the premise is that the person holds the answers they seek within, you are simply there to help guide them to it, to learn to empower themselves. 

To get there, you need to listen more than you talk. It is a hard line to walk when you see a kid sometimes five days a week for years, knowing that the goal is always to have them no longer need to continue the relationship. 

Unlike the person in the coffee shop, you do not have a choice to continue the relationship further if either of you choose. It begins and ends with the therapy. You want them to eventually forget about you, leave that past behind and move foreword with the rest of their lives. It s a very foreign concept to most people. 

I still think about kids I encountered decades ago and wonder how they are doing, and very much hope they are well, so there is some emotional attachment there, but not at all like the attachment I have with my own children. 

I think it is quite similar for people who work with troubled horses as well. 

Horses come to a trainer generally for two reasons; because they are essentially a blank slate or because they are having big trouble that the owner cannot overcome themselves. I suppose in some of the upper most levels of riding where the big money is, there are horses who come in for regular detail work, but for most run of the mill trainers, the horses fall into the first two categories.

To BSMS' point, it could very well be that over time the perception of "normal" shifts, it is an off shoot of the political concept of the Overton Window, a sort of desensitization. It is also hard to not become a bit jaded towards owners when day in and day out all you seem to be encountering is horses that have become human created horse felons, most often because a well meaning owner let too many things slide in the name of being caring. 

On the opposite end of the spectrum you find people in rescue situations who day in and day out for years see horses who have been made to suffer terribly through no fault of their own and likewise become jaded in the opposite direction, of absolutely no correction at all. 

In both cases, emotions were allowed to get the better of the people involved and allows them to lose perspective of the situation. Quite honestly, that is why I retired at age 35. I was finding it too hard to keep my perspective with people. There are only so many times you can sit and listen to a 6 or 8 year old kid tell you step by step how they were raped by momma's boyfriend or beaten by mom with a broom handle because they took a cookie, before you start to see humanity, generally in a different light. 

Our life's experiences shape our points of view. It doesn't make them wrong, but we need to take a step back every once in a while and despite the hard climb, take a look from atop somebody else's mountain.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

BSMS, it sounds like you encountered a less than good instructor.

The man I have been using for the last five years or so, (western dressage, gasp!) from day one, emphasized to both my daughter and myself, the cues being a means of learned communication and that just as humans are not born speaking "horse", horses are not born speaking "human". Learning to use pressure and release correctly forms a common language so that both can understand each other. 

I had learned that over the years, because my first experiences with horses was with horses who knew nothing, but my daughter had not, so he started from square one. We started with lunging on a loose line and teaching a horse to yield to pressure and find release, the importance of consistency, fairness, timing and feel in establishing communication and willingness in the horse and how to reward the try.

It sounds like you had a bad experience.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I remember a conversation you had a while back with ? regarding the use of a one rein stop, where you said you tried it once and it did not work because the horse kept running with the neck bent around to your boot. That is when body control measures, timing and feel come in. 

First off, what I am calling a one rein stop is more the Clinton Anderson variety, rather than the more advanced maneuver that others use. The trick is to have trained the maneuver before it is needed and practiced it until it becomes one big fluid cue for both the horse and the rider. For it to work the horse needs to have the concepts of lateral flexation, disengagement and shoulder control down pat. 

The rider also needs to be able to feel and react to the tension that happens in the horses body a split second before the feet move and yes it happens almost impossibly fast. That is what is included in the term called "feel". People develop it to varying degrees. For this purpose think of "timing" as reaction time. 

The reason that some more advanced riders will tell you that you can stop a bolting horse is because, not to be insulting or to frustrate you, but they have worked to develop a more sensitive feel as riders, muscle memory, timing and have done a lot of work to train the horses to respond snap back into their right minds. In many circles, that is what is meant by "well trained", the horse, even if it is the freak out first type, like my Cowboy, they will respond immediately to a cue without thought being necessary (think of it as Pavlovian).

The other day when Cowboy took off with my daughter, that was rider failure. She froze instead of reacting. She let her mind wander and because she is not that well trained yet, can't afford to do that. The horse has the right buttons installed, I know, because I have been riding Mr. Spooky for a while now. Had she reacted quickly, she would have been able to nip it in the bud. Once he took the first step, it was too late.

The first trail ride Oliver had ever been out on, we had a couple of things happen that could have ended horribly. There were 13 riders on horses of varying degrees of training and riders of different abilities. About an hour into the ride, the horse behind me spooked, bucked off his rider then bolted, Oliver didn't know what was going on and wanted to run first think later. We were riding that day in a western hackamore (bosal with mecate reins), so bridle less. 

I didn't wait to see why he tensed, but the way he did it told me I needed to react. His nose was at my boot and he was disengaging by the time the horse behind us had finished his spook and put his feet back on the ground. Part of that was my own recognition of the type of tenseness and training that Oliver had been put through before we ever considered riding him. As a rider, I was not responding to the other horse, there was no time to think about what was happening, I was responding only to my horse's cue (horses cue us too, so I am also pavlovian trained! ). It did not matter if he was tensing out of fear or because of an instinctual reaction to run, my reaction would be the same, better safe than sorry. Because we both had extensively trained this maneuver, it was shut down before even one step was taken. 

Anyway I know it is hard to believe, but it can be done but it takes a bit of effort and practice on both the human and rider's part.


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## tinyliny

bsms,

I have not kept up on your journal, nor read all the lengthy posts on the current topic of discussion, (which, btw, is interesting, but hopefully you are not feeling put upon by all these folks giving their 2 cents on YOUR journal)

anyway . . . you said:

"Shouldn't it be obvious to an experienced rider that you cannot cue a horse who is out of his mind with fear, so the first thing (besides staying on) is to get the horse calm enough to listen? But of course, that will never be needed if you have "body control". "

this got me to thinking . . you know I am a big proponent of "getting the hrose's thought", and so, I do agree with that statement.

HOWEVER .. (there's always a however in the world of horses, isnt there?) . . .
sometimes by moving the horse's body, you take his mind. usually, you get his mind, send his mind where you want it, and his feet/body will follow. on occasions, you move his body in a sort of automatic, trained reaction, and the mind will come and join the body.

for example, when the hrose is tense about accepting the bit, asking the horse to lower his head, all the way down (putting him "in the closet" in cowboy speak) can trigger a relaxation. why? it's a physical thing, so it doesn't matter so much why he moved his head down, so much as that he did. So, getting him trained to do the head lowereing, EVEN IF his mind is still on something else, will help create a physical relaxation that may encourage his mind to come back and join his body.,


disengageing the hindquarters can help, too. there's something about that big step under the body with the inside leg, and having the hind step over, off the pushing track of being lined up behind the shoulders , that triggers a "break" of the train of thought, too. so, if you can get the horse to do it, even when his train of thought has left the station, you have body control, without mind control, for a second, and then you gain mind control, hopefully.


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## gottatrot

BSMS, I too hope you don't find the dialogue on your own journal annoying, please just say if you do. The topics are intriguing and make a person want to participate.
I thought this quote from Reining about therapy would apply beautifully to horses. 


> You need them to trust you without becoming dependent upon you, the premise is that the person (horse) holds the answers they seek within, you are simply there to help guide them to it, to learn to empower themselves.
> 
> To get there, you need to listen more than you talk.


A horse often can be courageous, once they learn how to overcome their fears and sometimes their baggage.
From what I've seen of different instructors, what BSMS describes is common, and I would say what Reining describes is good instruction that is quite uncommon. A teen I taught several years ago had multiple lessons from various instructors and she was rather startled by what I had to teach her, but her mom called me all excited and said her daughter felt like she was finally learning to ride. But, I don't charge for lessons, I teach so others can ride out with me without getting injured or being put off riding by the often spooky and reactive mounts I have to offer. 

I also believe it is the horse's mind we engage with, and would like to know how to ESP with horses. 

I've never taught horses the one-rein stop (although I've ridden horses that know it). What I again believe is that the rider has the perception that the trained response catches the horse or stops the horse, but the cue is of little importance to the horse. 
I understand exactly what Tinyliny describes where the horse gathers and instinctively you react because of experience. However, my horses and I don't go to the one-rein stop or disengage anything. The horse bolts forward, I often shorten the reins as a reaction, and the spook stops. *ONCE* the horse has had enough experiences to understand which things are not life threatening and has practiced spooking and calming back down. Otherwise it won't matter what I do.

As I've described in Bondre's journal, I've also taught the head down cue.
The important thing is that the horse agrees that their reaction was a little extreme, and they calm down. Otherwise it does not matter what cue you use, or what part of their body is engaged or lowered. If the horse perceives a cue as conflict, and he is in the wrong state of mind for conflict, the cue will not work.

If I give no cue at all after the spook or short bolt, the horse will still stop if he is no longer worried, I've tried it out to see. Sometimes, your communication with the horse will remind him that you're there, you're not worried, and asking him to take another look will calm him sooner. 
I've also learned that if the horse is truly worried and frightened, none of the disengaged body parts will stop him from tanking off for parts unknown until he feels safe. You may just get there sideways, backwards, or in another manner.


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## bsms

_"The reason that some more advanced riders will tell you that you can stop a bolting horse is because, not to be insulting or to frustrate you, but they have worked to develop a more sensitive feel as riders, muscle memory, timing and have done a lot of work to train the horses to respond snap back into their right minds._"

There is an element of truth to this, and an element of falsehood. If, as the horse gathers to spring forward into a bolt, you turn him (or her, technically - all my bolting save one was on Mia) IMMEDIATELY, before she can get set into a run, then you can do 180 degrees turns until the horse (Mia, normally) stopped thinking of running. It would not teach her to be calm because doing 4-7 hard 180 deg turns put her emotions thru the roof. But yes, you CAN stop the horse at that stage. I believe that is what you meant by this:

"_The rider also needs to be able to feel and react to the tension that happens in the horses body a split second before the feet move and yes it happens almost impossibly fast. That is what is included in the term called "feel". People develop it to varying degrees. For this purpose think of "timing" as reaction time._" 

Warning time varies with the horse, and varies with how the horse is trained. Bandit came here believing there was no value in giving warning, so he would act 'normal' until he couldn't take it, then explode. But once he learned I would listen, he began giving a lot of warning. The more warning given, the easier it is on both of us to reach a mutually acceptable compromise. He now will let me know if something 1/4 mile or more away is bothering him. That makes it easy to defuse.

But Mia gave very little warning, which is why I rode her tense. This was a typical example of how a calm day could go bad:

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding/my-first-emergency-dismount-mia-while-377705/#post4940497

I literally had her so relaxed that I was about to slip my feet out of the stirrups, then BOOM. She then stopped after 1.5 circles, with the saddle horn parallel to the ground and her acting puzzled about how we got there. She would SOMETIMES give warning, but all her hardest spooks came, as best I could tell over a 7 year period, when she was most relaxed.

Once the horse is galloping forward in fear - the kind of fear that leaves cow-pie squirts on the trail for 1/4 mile - then I don't believe you do much to stop a bolting horse until the horse's mind is ready to listen to an input.

FWIW, I had a PM from one of the experienced riders with decades of all the right training, and going to clinics with all the right people, and she admitted she had been on a genuine bolt once in her life. I had more experience in *BOLTING* in one ride than she had in her life. Very few horses give anyone the regular practice Mia did. And since the trails here have cactus on either side, IF she got going, then turning her to slow her down wasn't going to happen.








​ 
I will also admit I get a bit tired of being told "experienced riders feel X" - as if 7 years on a horse counts for nothing. I really HAVE had more experience IN SOME MATTERS than people with decades of saddle time. Bolts, spooks and spins (and sideways jumping) - if there was an Olympic sport for it, I'd qualify. My wife was the one who wanted horses, but she gave up riding after watching Mia and I. 

I suspect the rancher who bred Trooper did more bolts than most riders will do in their lives as well. He and his sons ride out green horses in places that look like this:








​ 
They don't own an arena. They don't have round pens. They just ride them out. If they spook or bolt, they deal with it. And the advice he gave me matches my experiences with Mia. So I feel no need to bow to someone with decades of experience. If someone doesn't experience enough bolts in a short enough time frame, they will never have the chance to try different approaches and learn what works best. At least, what works best on that horse.

But since my advice matches closely the advice I've gotten from ranchers with a lifetime of riding in the open, and since I did try different approaches...yeah, I think my advice is solid:

*Keep riding*. Don't give up.

*Gather yourself* for a moment. You cannot control your horse if you are not in control of yourself.

*Calm the horse enough to listen*. With Mia, calling her name softly worked best. I've also rubbed her neck with one hand - after all, I often have just one hand on the reins, and an Australian saddle is a GREAT saddle for riding a bolting horse:








​ 
Worst case, you can gather yourself against the poleys, and adjust your seat with one hand on the horn, before gathering the horse. I remain convinced that saddle saved my life a few times over.

What you do NOT do is pull steady and hard on both reins, or hunch over, or quit riding. If you squeeze the horse with a death grip, you give the horse HUGE incentive to keep running! The lady who did so much for Mia, who broke Lilly from scratch and got Trooper sane again told me (based on 30+ years of riding in the desert) that very few horses would bolt over 200 yards unless the rider kept them bolting. Most, she said, would stop in 50-75 yards IF the rider relaxed.

I'm sure there are exceptions. But I also strongly suspect SOME of the "_He bolted for miles_" had more to do with the rider than the horse. Certainly a horse living in the wild learns bolting mindlessly is bad. They either learn, or die. If you ride in the sort of country my former room mate turned rancher lives in, you DO take bailing off before the horse goes over a cliff seriously. But like the trainer, he said he hadn't seen any long bolts that were not rider sustained. 

Bolts involve varying levels of fear. Some don't involve fear at all, in which case it is just a horse galloping and not listening, not what I would call a bolt at all. But a truly mindless fear will result in the horse running into solid objects - which I've heard of but not experienced.

When Mia dragged her hind leg into a cactus, then kicked the cactus 3 times (making it much worse), she took off across the desert. She was wearing a curb bit, and she had largely learned to spook in place. She stopped in maybe 30 yards, with cactus on 3 sides of us. But she was headed for a drop off, and was taking a route straight thru the middle of cactus at the time...so if she hadn't stopped, it would have turned very ugly. But while she was hurt and scared, it wasn't as mind-blowing for her as some of her earlier bolts.

----------------------------------------------------------

I try hard not to denigrate the experience of others, If they say X worked for them, then I assume X actually worked for them.

But I strongly reject the idea that if I say Y worked for me, I must be lying. *Or too stupid to know what I am saying* - which seems to be what The Furious Five always believe. [Note - I just realized it is the FURIOUS Five, not the Fabulous Five. But on HF, it seems to involve riders who feel they are fabulous and I am not, and that makes them furious...hmmm....]

And since so many experienced riders have told me really stupid things - that the circle of energy exists, for example, or that curb bits work thru pain, or curb bits apply poll pressure, or you can MAKE a horse go forward by whipping it hard enough, or....

The list would be long. Yet I don't say, "_No horse can be moved forward by whipping it_". I assume the person who gave me that advice with Mia had been successful doing it. It just didn't work for squat with Mia.

If someone tells me they grip the reins in their fists to prevent the horse from ripping the reins out of their fists, I feel sorry for the horse. But I don't tell them their horse DOESN'T want to rip the reins from their hands!

But when I say I've had my best success with nervous horses by working to get them past scary things using SLACK REINS - well, darn it! I have! And I'm doing it regularly, first with Mia and now with Bandit. Maybe it wouldn't work on EVERY horse, but I know darn well it worked far better on two of my horses than getting in their mouths ever did!

When I'm told this is a dangerous way to ride on a road:








​
Well, I've done it. And had it work well with a spooky horse. It is working well with Bandit. In fact, it has worked well for MILLIONS of western riders! That is NORMAL in Arizona and Utah. I truly get tired of hearing that what western riders have done for 100 years is impossible...or that I am like Panda Po, and too unworthy to know what it is I have actually done!

_Tigress: One would think that Master Oogway would choose someone who actually knew kung fu.

Crane: Yeah, or could at least touch his toes.

Monkey: Or even see his toes. 

Tigress: [seeing Po bounce down the palace steps] If he's smart, he won't come back up those steps.

Monkey: But, he will.

Viper: He's not gonna quit, is he?

Mantis: He's not gonna quit bouncing, I'll tell you that. _
_
Oogway: [walking towards Po] Ah! I see that you have found the Sacred Peach Tree of Heavenly Wisdom!

Po: [Po turns around with a lot of peaches stuffed in his mouth] Is that what this is? I'm so sorry! I just thought it was a regular peach tree!

Oogway: I understand. You eat when you are upset.

Po: Upset? I'm not upset. Why, what makes you think I'm upset?

Oogway: So why *are* you upset?

Po: [sighs] I probably sucked more today than anybody in the history of kung fu. In the history of China. In the history of sucking! _

:racing:

BTW, I'm not upset with anyone on this thread. But if my experience isn't valid unless I first spend 50 years riding - or 6 months riding, repeated 100 times, then there isn't much reason to post on HF. If people are just going to accuse me of lying when I say calling Mia's name softly worked well for getting her out of her fear and back to where we were together...then what is the point of HF?

If English Riding, and Dressage, are the only acceptable ways of riding - at least on HF - then I have nothing to add. Nor desire to do so. Right now, I can't think of why I would want to post anything on HF apart from a few journal threads and the over 50 thread. Those are the only "safe areas" where a person can post without being called a liar. Or stupid.​


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## bsms

gottatrot said:


> ...If I give no cue at all after the spook or short bolt, the horse will still stop if he is no longer worried, I've tried it out to see. Sometimes, your communication with the horse will remind him that you're there, you're not worried, and asking him to take another look will calm him sooner.
> 
> I've also learned that if the horse is truly worried and frightened, none of the disengaged body parts will stop him from tanking off for parts unknown until he feels safe. You may just get there sideways, backwards, or in another manner.


Been there. Done that. More than once, both variations!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

_"The reason that some more advanced riders will tell you that you can stop a bolting horse is because, not to be insulting or to frustrate you, but they have worked to develop a more sensitive feel as riders, muscle memory, timing and have done a lot of work to train the horses to respond snap back into their right minds."
_

Not to beat a dead horse, but the reasoning here stands. Ideally, the horse should not even get the opportunity to squat into the spring, the tension in the feel underneath you before they get the chance to do it is different than regular muscle movement and you should already have made your move and the horse should be with you before he can even coil. It may seem like there is no "tell", but there is. You simply need to find it. So I don't think you are incorrect, only that I think you are recognizing the start of the "tell" at a different point than I am. 

One bolt is enough for some of us.... The goal I had was to not *ever* be put in that situation again and sought help to teach me shut it down. I'm glad you found what worked with Mia, I'm just trying to add to your tool chest, as one day you might run into a horse that you need it for and want to train them for it. 

Still trying to find the right word. The tell a bolting horse gives is like a subliminal power surge? A different energy that proceeded any action from the horse? I have a hard time describing it, but it is there and that is your window of opportunity to shut it down. 

Believe it or not, I'm trying to help you find it so it can help you. I don't want to see you hurt!


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## bsms

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> _"The reason that some more advanced riders will tell you that you can stop a bolting horse is because, not to be insulting or to frustrate you, but they have worked to develop a more sensitive feel as riders, muscle memory, timing and have done a lot of work to train the horses to respond snap back into their right minds."
> _
> 
> Not to beat a dead horse, but the reasoning here stands. Ideally, the horse should not even get the opportunity to squat into the spring, the tension in the feel underneath you before they get the chance to do it is different than regular muscle movement and you should already have made your move and the horse should be with you before he can even coil. It may seem like there is no "tell", but there is. You simply need to find it. ...
> 
> Believe it or not, I'm trying to help you find it so it can help you. I don't want to see you hurt!


I disagree. I disagree because I rode Mia. 

If I had ridden Trooper, Cowboy & Bandit for 10 years, I would agree with you. If I had ridden horses like them for 50 years, I would agree with you. If I had ridden horses like them for 50 years, I would say it was my finely tuned rump that made it possible to prevent bolts, or that "_It may seem like there is no "tell", but there is. You simply need to find it. ..._"

I would be certain. I would be wrong. It was my fortune, or fate, to ride Mia as my starting horse. There isn't 1 chance in 100 that an experienced rider could predict her spooks from 0.25 seconds away.

Admittedly, those were her spooks, and her spooks were typically not bolts. With a lot of practice, and the survival help of an Australian saddle - whose poleys would slam into my thighs and keep my hips aligned with the horse regardless - I got to where her "turn 180 and leap into a bolt" would become "turn 180", "turn another 180", "turn another 180", "turn another 180", "turn another 180", "turn another 180", "turn another 180"...then slow to a circle, then stop.

It was something that had to be learned, as muscle memory, not conscious thought. But telling someone who had not experienced it more than once or twice what to do was as helpful as telling a kid learning to ride a bike how to use the handle bars. You were not going to get the 1/4 second warning a human needs to react. You would be in the 180 turn before any conscious thought and response was possible. So success involved doing it enough to develop a habitual response, along with the balance to still be able to cue her in the middle of a violent 180 spin.

Trooper and Cowboy, and to a lesser extent Bandit, give more warning. It takes them a moment or two to decide "I'm going to take off". They start to alert, then tighten the back, give themselves a 'half-halt', and THEN leap forward. In truth, I don't think Cowboy has or ever will "bolt". He was a wild horse at one time, and he just knows running mindlessly is more dangerous than staying put.

He will, like Mia, sometimes make a conscious decision to ignore his rider and run. Being who Mia was, you could ask her for a canter and quickly get a gallop from a horse who was NOT interested ins stopping. It wasn't what I call a bolt, though. I think of bolts as being fear reactions. 

But it was an uncontrolled gallop. Cowboy has done those in an arena, although never in the open. Mia never did those in an arena, but ONLY in the open. Either way, it isn't a case of the horse losing its mind, but a horse who has decided to act on his own wishes and the hell with what the rider wants.

In Mia's case, it could include getting off-balance, and accepting the idea that taking a shortcut across the desert instead of staying on the trail might work. It could be work just keeping her from leaving the trail, let alone stopping.

But that is just a running horse who is ignoring her rider, not a bolting horse. It is what one sometimes has once a bolting horse has stopped bolting, but hasn't stopped running.

But if Mia bolted forward - which she sometimes did - her leap forward was as sudden and as unpredictable as her spins or sideways jumps. The ride that got me to stop riding her for 8 months, until I could work on riding on other horses and take lessons, and that kept me off her back for another two months while a pro trained her 4 days/week, was when she repeatedly bolted in our little arena.

She was scared. I don't know why. She also viewed any attempt at a dismount as the captain abandoning ship, and since that only happens when the ship is about to sink, well....

Looking back, it would be a perfect example of when gottatrot's emergency dismount would be worth knowing. But I didn't. We spent two hours, repeatedly bolting for 50-75 yards. My oldest daughter drove up near sunset. Mia was lathered, and my daughter shouted out that her eyes were "rolling like a slot machine". She would stop, maybe walk 50 yard, then explode forward.

That was the evening where I wrapped the reins around the horn, tight, and then dismounted in 1.25 seconds while she took 1.5 seconds to get straight and bolt away. And being Mia, when she got 50 yards away and realized I wasn't there, she turned around and ran back. Then stuck her head next to me and shook until she calmed down.

Looking back, I guess her back was continuously tense enough to support a leap forward.

Yes, an experienced rider might well have known how to handle that evening better than I did. It was part of the learning process. But that does a less experienced rider - ANY rider who hasn't been on a bolting horse - no good. What a beginning rider needs is to know how to handle a horse who HAS bolted. After all, if the horse gives enough warning, and the rider is capable of defusing things, the bolt won't happen.

But that requires reading the horse and having a horse who CAN be read. One of the reasons I no longer own Mia was that I think she had a few wires loose in her skull, and I don't think she COULD be read. I don't think she was exactly sane... 

After switching to a curb, I was able to convince her to stay in place long enough for the scary things (motorcycles, the first time) to go away. Once she learned standing still made the bad things go away faster than running did, she was a much safer horse. No more bolting. 3 rides in a arena teaching her how to respond to a curb. About the third time out of the arena, she started to take off at some motorcycles, but with help from the curb, she stayed in one spot long enough for them to start pulling away - and the lightbulb came on. She literally never bolted again.

She would still spook, and spin. She would still jump sideways for no known reason. And then look at me as if to ask ME what happened and how we got to this new location!

She could still get hot and refuse to stop running.

But she didn't BOLT again.

---------------------------------------

Bandit, bless his soul, is not a bolter. He's a horse who wants to move sideways far enough (50 feet, 100 feet, 200 feet) to be content he could THEN run away. He used to do 180s, but all that practice on Mia stood me in good stead. And as Bandit learned it was OK to talk to me, those 180s and sideways shying largely stopped. He dropped his shoulder and THOUGHT about shying away from a "For sale" sign Sunday...got about 30 degrees of turn and then straightened back to the front. Pause, then forward. 

Forward on a slack rein.

He can get a little hot going faster near another horse. But nothing like Mia.

Judging from the number of people who tell me I'm wrong and that Mia didn't do what I say she did, I'd have to guess Mia was an unusual horse. But I've met a number of very experienced riders who have said, "Yeah, I remember a horse...". So I guess she was not totally unique.

But a person could almost certainly ride horses for 30 years and not encounter her. Particularly if they ride horses they breed themselves, or well bred horses, or mostly trained horses, or horses in arenas. The mistake is when someone with 30 (or 40, or 50) years of riding assumes they've ridden every horse possible in every situation possible. I've met people who have never ridden a seriously competitive horse. I've met people who have never ridden a very spooky horse - the sort who could work herself into a lather just standing in a corral.

I'm thrilled Bandit is so sensible. Some people would call him spooky. He's not. He has far better control of his emotions than Mia did. And no loose wires. He's not a dead-head, but he's light-years away from Mia's nervousness. HUGE difference.

And yes, I still miss Mia sometimes. What a sweet soul she was! But she could be a dangerous horse to ride in the Sonoran desert. She is better off in the open country where she lives now, and where she can run for a few miles flat out, or jump sideways, and no one will care and no one will get hurt. She has potential as a broodmare. *The intensity of her emotions made her an easy horse to love*, but they also made her a dangerous horse to ride around here. Still, people who have owned similar horses will understand both why I loved her and why she scared me so...

BTW - the trainer who worked her for a total for 4 months said she had never had another horse like Mia...:wink: :loveshower:


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## bsms

Bandit's "Dressage Training" for today:

I had my first non-Sunday off in a month. Winds are supposed to be wild this afternoon, and were starting to pick up at 9 AM...so we spent the ride in the arena. Mostly, we worked on "The Cones of Confusion":








​ 
When we approach, I can ask Bandit to turn left, or right, or keep straight. If we turn left or right, we may turn all the way and go back to the far end of the arena. Or we can swing around the outside of the triangle of cones, or go past one and enter. If we enter, we can go straight, left or right.

The point is to make turns of varying sizes and varying directions, all decided at the moment. Bandit cannot anticipate since I don't know myself. My confusion means he HAS to listen to me.

He can listen to a leg, but mostly I ask him to listen to a neck rein. I'm riding with two hands, because I want the option to direct rein if needed. But I can move my right hand forward, lay the rein against his neck halfway up it - an area reserved for turning cues - and leave the left rein off. That is what he feels when I neck rein with one hand, and he understands it pretty well now. We did very little direct reining today.

This was also trash day, so there were trash cans on the paved street next to our little arena. Bandit did NOT like that, and did NOT like the corner of our arena closest to one of them. So yeah...we spent a fair bit of time in that corner!I didn't directly respond to tinyliny earlier, but I strongly agree with this comment of hers:"_HOWEVER .. (there's always a however in the world of horses, isnt there?) . . ._
_ sometimes by moving the horse's body, you take his mind. usually, you get his mind, send his mind where you want it, and his feet/body will follow. on occasions, you move his body in a sort of automatic, trained reaction, and the mind will come and join the body_."​That was what we did. His mind (and face and head) would go to the trash can 100 yards away. So we would change directions, maybe do a figure 8, then move to the far end (away from the street), then go back to the Cones of Confusion, move his feet, etc. After 10 minutes of work, he was sighing and blowing boogers out of his brain - relaxing. So we made a FEW walks out into the street, coming closer to the trash can in the wind, and turned back. I tried to act as if the trash can wasn't there at all.

But I also said we did dressage training today. When dressage books talk about "straight", they also mean doing turns in a way where the hind feet follow the same path as the front feet. The horse stays vertical and turns as a unit, shortening his "wheelbase" to allow it. That is what we WORKED on doing today, at a walk.

Bandit's flexibility is bad enough that we needed the entire far end of the arena to work on "straight" in a trotting turn. We have a long way to go!

But he is getting more responsive.

We also worked on "collection", in a way. He tends to pull himself forward on his front legs. So I would ask for some more "oomph", either by kissing very softly or giving a light squeeze. Loud kisses mean "_Shift gears up_". If I did it while settled back in the saddle, he USUALLY would respond with more hind end effort. If I leaned forward at the time, he USUALLY would respond by accelerating. I would like him to learn both, so I could lean forward give a soft urging and have him accelerate, or stay vertical and give a soft urging and have him create more oomph (impulsion) without accelerating.

If he accelerated when I was vertical, I'd give a light bump (one) on the reins to say "Wrong answer" - and he mostly got it right afterward. I did NOT try to "contain him between the driving aids and restraining aids"! Just tried to encourage him to find the right answer...

When he got light on the front end because he was uncomfortable about the trash can, I would say, "_Thank you, let's continue like this!_" I normally tell him to calm, so that was different and I don't think he knew how to respond. I have no idea if he will pick up that it can be fun to move that way sometimes. Maybe not. If nothing else, it emphasized that I wasn't going to worry. And THEN we would do a figure 8, or a 180 and go into the CoC.

All that emphasis on turns and on moving with oomph - which sounds more descriptive to me than "impulsion" - was work for us both. I have ridden about once a week since November, so both of us are out of shape. And turning well and "oomph" is tiring for both of us. After 30 minutes, we were both feeling the effort. The winds were getting worse, so we stopped. He is eating with the others in the corral as I type.

Although the Cones of Confusion is my own invention for working on turns in a limited space, the principles we used today could be found in a lot of dressage books. They also were principles taught to me by the trainer who worked with Trooper and Mia, and whose background was barrel racing. The ideas could also be found in Littauer's book on schooling a forward horse for jumping.

However, it differed, I suspect, from dressage in that most of it was with slack reins. Not all. Bandit got fussy a few times. He wanted to take control when we were in the corner nearest the trash can, and he needed to understand that "will profit you not", to use Tom Robert's great phrase. No punishment, just "Quiet Persistence" and not letting Bandit get any profit by fussing. 

But since I am a western rider now, mostly we kept some slack in the reins. I also dropped the stirrups back down a hole - found I was reverting to bracing, so down they went so I could not rely on stirrups instead of seat.

Just because I don't show or compete does not mean I don't want a responsive horse who moves well. And to his credit, his trotting is vastly better than it was last fall. He's making progress. Of course, if he belonged to someone else, and needed to have 30 days of training, my approach wouldn't work. *Takes too long*. But I think my approach does work well for someone who is not a pro but who owns their own horse. We ARE making progress, after all. And we did start like this today, when I went to fetch him - and he knew what was coming!










:loveshower::loveshower::loveshower:​


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## bsms

Turns, per the USDF:_Turns and Circles
_ _
The rider can ride a turn or circle correctly when he is able to bend the horse’s body laterally according to the curvature of the line which he follows. He must be able to cause the hind feet to follow exactly in the tracks of the forefeet.
_ _
In a correctly executed turn or circle the horse’s inside hind leg carries more weight than the outside one. Before every turn or circle the rider should prepare the horse with a half halt and transfer his weight a little to the inside seat bone, in the direction of the movement.
_ _
The horse should then be flexed in the same direction. The inside rein should guide the horse into the turn, the rider’s inside leg, close to the girth, causing the horse’s inside hind leg to reach further forward. The outside rein should yield just enough to allow the horse to flex to the inside, while at the same time it restrains the horse from falling out over the outside shoulder. The outside leg should control the quarters.
_ _
When the horse’s forehand is guided from the straight line into the direction of the turn, the influence of the inside rein is decreased again. The rider should ‘straighten’ the horse with the outside rein, keep the horse exactly on the line of the circle. (‘Straight’ on the circle means making sure that the hind feet follow in the tracks of the forefeet, and that the horse is bent from head to tail according to the curvature of the line.)
_ _
The correct distribution of the rider’s weight is most important. In transferring his weight to the inside seat bone he should push the inside hip forward with a deep knee. This will also prevent him from collapsing his inside hip and slipping the seat to the outside. At the same time he should make sure not to leave the outside shoulder behind.
_ _
Only when sitting correctly with correct distribution of weight can the rider bend his horse as needed."

_ _http://www.usdf.org/EduDocs/Training/basicexercises.pdf
_​Whew! And I thought what I was doing today was tiring!

So I take it back. *Bandit and I were not doing dressage this morning*. I couldn't even remember all those steps to controlling my horse in a turn. 

And maybe it is being 57, and a guy who has jogged all his life and has tight hips, but...

Am I the ONLY one who could not, to save his soul, 'transfer my weight to the inside seat bone[and] push the inside hip forward with a deep knee....' - let alone the rest of it. Something about collapsing hips and slipping seats. Am I really the only one whose pelvis is more like this:








​ 
Than like this:








​ 
How in the heck do you weight the inside seatbone and push it forward? I've got a Uni-Butt! I pretty much come with a one-piece pelvis. How does anyone weight one side and push it forward? Heck, I bought a sheepskin cover so my butt will stay in place! And now I need to move parts of it independently? And if I did, would my horse feel it thru this?








​
Here is how Bandit and I did it. Once I decided it was time to turn, and which way we were going to do it, I would move my outside hand forward, about halfway up his neck, then move it sideways toward the inside about 4-6 inches, enough to lay the rein against his neck.

I tried to support him with my inside leg. If needed, because he's pretty new to this, I'd move my outside leg away from his side and push on it, trying to pull him more vertical. Bandit was on his own for where to place his feet. It is up to him to figure it out. 

"_The outside rein should yield just enough to allow the horse to flex to the inside, while at the same time it restrains the horse from falling out over the outside shoulder. The outside leg should control the quarters._"

My outside rein was slack. I guess I should be grateful he didn't fall out over his shoulder. It sounds painful. Glad it didn't happen.

But if that is how a dressage rider turns a horse, I apologize. What Bandit and I worked on had NOTHING to do with what the USDF says is critical. *Guess we're just a couple of yahoos goofing around.* Felt like we were working, though.


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> My outside rein was slack. I guess I should be grateful he didn't fall out over his shoulder. It sounds painful. Glad it didn't happen.


 Very funny.


> I disagree. I disagree because I rode Mia.
> If I had ridden Trooper, Cowboy & Bandit for 10 years, I would agree with you. If I had ridden horses like them for 50 years, I would agree with you. If I had ridden horses like them for 50 years, I would say it was my finely tuned rump that made it possible to prevent bolts, or that "_It may seem like there is no "tell", but there is. You simply need to find it. ..._"
> I would be certain. I would be wrong. It was my fortune, or fate, to ride Mia as my starting horse. There isn't 1 chance in 100 that an experienced rider could predict her spooks from 0.25 seconds away.


I'm going to use the cones of confusion, those are a great idea.

I also disagree that all horses have "tell" because I rode Amore.
I hadn't heard the theory that horses won't fear bolt longer than a certain distance unless it's due to the rider, but I have to disagree with that too because of several situations I've been in or know about. As a general rule I'd agree. But it just depends on how long it takes for the horse to find their lost marbles. 

Halla would follow that rule, having only bolted short distances before becoming able to think again, except for the time she bolted when I didn't know she had ulcers. I believe the ulcers caused pain when she began to run, I've read the acid in the stomach can splash on the ulcers at faster speeds. What I know is that she began to canter in her right mind and then bolted and something kept perpetuating that bolt because she kept it up for nearly a mile. I believe the pain as she ran kept her bolting, but it was a mindless bolt with no regard for balance or where she was going.

My friend's horse Cassie is not a spooky horse but once saw a bush that scared the living daylights out of her. When she bolted, she was still out of her mind a mile later when my friend, knowing a steep asphalt hill was ahead, steered her into the side of a building. Which the horse hit, bounced off and my friend fell off. Cassie spun and continued for home, a half mile away. They found her standing in the driveway at home, trembling and shaking all over. 

Amore has no "tell" at all. My personal opinion is that in order for a horse to have tell, they have to know they are getting upset, but with some horses the fright seems to hit like a ton of bricks falling out of the sky. We call horses "reactive," and for some that means they feel the fright and react so quickly it's almost as fast as someone pulling back their hand after touching a hot stove. 
Amore usually didn't bolt when I first started her, but instead exploded into bucking. By the time the sound that was about to make her buck entered my eardrum and fired the neurons in my brain, my horse had exploded. We'd be walking along, happy and calm when someone would start up a chainsaw a half mile away and I'd hear the sound as my horse flew up into the air underneath me. It would be like you were walking through Disneyland and suddenly fell off a cliff.
And I'm not saying she was doing something and then threw in a buck. I'm saying we would be walking or trotting along and she'd explode into a frenzy of rodeo bucking that wouldn't stop. 
She's the only horse I've personally ridden with no tell. She could be calm, happy, sleepy, and then off in a dead bolt. 


> It was something that had to be learned, as muscle memory, not conscious thought. But telling someone who had not experienced it more than once or twice what to do was as helpful as telling a kid learning to ride a bike how to use the handle bars. You were not going to get the 1/4 second warning a human needs to react. You would be in the 180 turn before any conscious thought and response was possible.


While Halla can be difficult and I discuss her a lot, she very kindly shows signs of distress or anxiety and I'm well aware when I need to be alert. Her muscles tense, her head will raise, she'll have a sharp intake of breath. Her hind legs gather underneath her. With Amore it was faster than thought. 
The only way I managed to ever get a handle on her explosions was to ride her enough times and get bucked off enough times for her to realize that she never got killed by what scared her. Which made her hesitate a time or two before expending all that energy, which gave me time to get off, which made her see someone was with her and gave her the opportunity to calm down. Lots of practice helped her panic on less and less occasions, and life experiences have made her quite rideable.
Halla can be tough but she is very sane (unless ill). What she fears are what many horses fear - I can predict it. I often am unsure if Amore is quite sane, just as with Mia. She can become deathly afraid of her own body parts...her tail, her poop falling onto the ground. She can scratch her head on her front leg, bump her own nose and startle and run off. 
Sweetest horse I've ever known, loves people and would never purposefully hurt anyone. Sanity is not the only good quality a horse can have.


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## phantomhorse13

bsms said:


> How in the heck do you weight the inside seatbone and push it forward? I've got a Uni-Butt! I pretty much come with a one-piece pelvis. How does anyone weight one side and push it forward?


Sit down evenly on a hard chair.. can you feel both your seatbones? Now very slightly raise one hip.. notice you can now feel that opposite seatbone more. Your pelvis certainly is one solid piece! To push a seatbone forward, roll the opposite hip back.

I suspect you are doing that (at least to some extent) already when you ride a turn, assuming you are relaxed when doing so and are turning your head to look where you are turning to. Just the weight of your head turning on your neck will very slightly shift your pelvis to weight the seatbone in the direction you are looking. You just aren't thinking about how every part is or isn't moving.

So see, you _are_ riding "dressage" and you didn't even know it. :wink:


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## bsms

"_But it just depends on how long it takes for the horse to find their lost marbles... I believe the pain as she ran kept her bolting, but it was a mindless bolt with no regard for balance or where she was going... My personal opinion is that in order for a horse to have tell, they have to know they are getting upset, but with some horses the fright seems to hit like a ton of bricks falling out of the sky... By the time the sound that was about to make her buck entered my eardrum and fired the neurons in my brain, my horse had exploded.... Sweetest horse I've ever known, loves people and would never purposefully hurt anyone. Sanity is not the only good quality a horse can have._"​I agree on all counts. My rancher friend & ex-college room mate would kill a horse like that. It simply would not be an acceptable risk on the ranch. He and his kids sometimes ride for fun, but often are riding for work, and doing so alone and many miles from a paved road.

Mia was such a sweetheart! She had a lot of excellent qualities. I think the guy who used to own Bandit was a little upset that she was as easy of a ride as she normally is. I think he took a measure of pride in riding Bandit, who was sometimes 'a tough ride' - and I'll bet Bandit was if you forced him to go past things! But Bandit is VERY sane, and willing to listen to someone who will listen to him. I think he will turn into a great trail horse. Alert, eager, but confident. I just have to keep showing him he CAN do it.

But Mia? I'm told the kids are having fun riding her, and laugh at her brief moments of mindlessness. And that is probably the best way to handle it. *I hope she finds the peace I never quite managed to give her, under riders who can accept things that simply scared me.* She had a beautiful soul, but was sometimes betrayed by her mind.

"_Just the weight of your head turning on your neck will very slightly shift your pelvis to weight the seatbone in the direction you are looking. You just aren't thinking about how every part is or isn't moving._"​I'll be honest. I'm sitting on a hard chair in front of the computer. I cannot raise either side of my pelvis without tilting. That may be because it IS a chair and my thighs are flat to the front. I tried spreading them, but it didn't help. 

The closest I can come is by twisting my shoulders. If I twist my shoulders left or right, they may be some unequal pressure on my pelvis. If so, then to that extent, something may be happening in my seat. And it is certainly true that I've always been taught to look in the direction of the turn...but I can do most of that at my neck. Moving my HEAD 60 degrees either way doesn't seem to do anything to my hips.

My saddle is in a very solid stand, so I just tried it there. If I twist my shoulders, there is a little shift, I think. It is hard for me to tell. It certainly would be a very subtle shift, and I doubt Bandit is that subtle of a horse - particularly thru a 35 lb saddle with a double wrapped roping tree, and an inch of wool felt under the solid tree.

Now, my hips may be less mobile than others. The one spill I took off Mia, in Jan 2009, still hurts. I just took 4 Motrin for the pain in my lower right back. It is true I keep my back much stiffer than most need to do. The short amount of work we did in working on turns this morning has my back throbbing 8 hours later.

But really...Bandit doesn't NEED any hip movement from me to cue him any more than he needs a half-halt to tell him to listen. I realize it is NOT what showing requires, but a hand moved forward enough to get the reins away from the area of the neck where he normally feels them, then moved a few inches to one side, is all the cue he needs.

My balance, forward or central, will tell him (I think) what speed and approach to use. Forward to go faster and dig in, shoving the front sideways around. That is what he learned to do going fast in his previous life. Using a central balance, and with neck reining, will tell him to keep a vertical stance and turn in an upright manner.

In all seriousness, I want to respect dressage. But the USDF makes it very hard, with talk of bouncing the horse off the bit, and by describing turns as something the *RIDER* does *TO* the *HORSE*. Reading their description, it is like describing how to dance with a mannequin instead of a woman!

"_The inside rein should guide the horse into the turn, the rider’s inside leg, close to the girth, causing the horse’s inside hind leg to reach further forward. The outside rein should yield just enough to allow the horse to flex to the inside, while at the same time it restrains the horse from falling out over the outside shoulder. The  outside leg should control the quarters._"

It is all about the RIDER. There is no conception of a horse turning in response to its rider's request. It is totally rider-focused. The rider "flexes the horse". Rider does X to horse. The rider "_causes... restrains... controls... can the rider bend his horse as needed" -_ the RIDER, RIDER, RIDER! *Where is the horse in all this? *Does the horse have a mind?

The western approach is to train the horse to perform maneuvers the rider asks for by giving the horse increasingly difficult maneuvers and letting the horse learn how to perform them. The western approach needs no half-halts to tell the horse to listen up, because the rider only has contact via the bit is there is something he wants the horse to do. To use the bit at all is to tell the horse "_listen, I'd like to change X_". I don't need to do a half-halt to break thru the white noise of constant contact.

I watched the world record dressage performance in London in a video this afternoon. I fully grant you do not teach a horse to move that way based on understanding. But I also think, for the vast majority of general purpose riders, the western philosophy makes far more sense and shows more respect to the horse than the dressage one does.

If you want the horse as a full partner, the western approach is a better foundation for building that partnership than one where the emphasis is on the rider doing things to the horse.

IMHO. Of course, others will disagree. They are welcome to.

Littauer started "Common Sense Horsemanship" with a discussion on his philosophy of riding. Starting with how he felt the horse should be treated, he moved to discussing WHY he switched from a dressage-based riding approach to a forward balance approach.

For me, and for goals of having a responsive, flexible, athletic PARTNER in riding, the western approach sets the foundation for riding the way I enjoy riding. Not "everyone enjoys", but how "I" enjoy it. I think dressage can be beautiful. It certainly takes a lot of skill to do it well. But it is not founded on the approach to horses that I want to take, or that will get me to where I want to be - *out riding in the desert with my friend, who happens to have four legs instead of two*.


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## phantomhorse13

Oh, I am not defending dressage as the 'right' way to ride. Goodness knows a dressage rider would likely faint at the sight of my eq going down the trail (though of course first they would have to BE on a trail! :wink.

I was simply trying to point out that the basics of dressage is stuff most people do while riding.. just taken to extreme (or a "higher level," depending on your POV). When people ask me about riding styles, my normal comment is I am much too lazy to ride dressage.


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## Bondre

Phew, this thread advances rapidly! I wrote half of a reply yesterday but didn't have time to finish it, and now there's a lot more to reply to...



bsms said:


> I've read dressage books that claimed the cues used in dressage were "natural", and that ALL horses INSTINCTIVELY understood them. When I tried them on my three, I found three horses who apparently were unnatural. They didn't have a clue what I was trying to do. I eventually concluded that almost no cues are instinctive to a horse. They are all LEARNED cues.


I absolutely agree! Curiously, I wrote about just this in my journal very recently:

"Until recently, I had the idea that cues were a kind of universal language that horses could understand miraculously. Weird idea I know, but as a teenager I was taught all these cues for different movements and never questioned WHY, for example, you put the inside leg on the girth and the outside leg behind the girth to ask for a bend. And if you look on dressage sites you can find lists of cues for different movements, as if they were recipes for making a cake. Outside rein, inside leg, open your seatbones, all this stuff that you were referring to when you discussed micro-managing horses.

In my early days with Macarena I tried some of this stuff and wondered why she didn't understand Stupid me! But I genuinely thought that the horses understood the cues because of the inherent nature of the cues, rather then because they've been taught to do so. Since I came to realise that ANYTHING can be a cue if you teach it to your horse, I feel so much happier about the idea of training. There's no need to worry that I might teach her the wrong cues, as there's no such thing as a wrong cue. As long as we both understand, everything will work fine. "

I vividly remember the first time I sat on her back. I naively thought that squeezing a horse's sides with your legs was a "natural" cue for forward movement. I squeezed and nudged to no avail. She stood still and she wandered, clearly confused about what I wanted her to do. I hadn't taught her to move away from pressure - I believed that horses "knew" to do that instinctively.

So much for natural cues.

All that you quoted from the USDF on turning - well, that's the sort of micro-managing recipe book stuff I was referring to. Very complicated recipe and impossible to remember when you're on horseback. A lot of it sounds plain ridiculous, like the horse falling out over its shoulder, or the rider leaving his outside shoulder behind. :shock: :shock: 

It makes me wonder how on earth we ever negotiate the bends on the trails.... and aren't stuck in an eternal straight line....

Seriously though, I am quite sure that most horses are capable of bending correctly on their own. I believe they will naturally move in the most efficient manner, which is with their hind legs following their front rather than heading off to one side in a twisted lateral fashion. So it seems unnecessary to offer such a complicated recipe for a simple thing like bending correctly - which the horse will do perfectly off its own bat if allowed to - unless the horse is so confused by micro-management that he doesn't even know what to do with his body any more without costant input from his rider.

I like your approach. Teach the horse to turn with lots of practice, and he will learn where best to put his feet all by himself. 



bsms said:


> Why is it the "Fabulous Five" type riders go bonkers if I say that we never control the horse's body, we only influence the HORSE'S MIND, and that the horse's MIND controls the horse's BODY? Why do many top trainers and clinicians talk about "body control" instead of "influence"?


I suppose it is that if you train a horse repeatedly to do a certain action in response to a certain cue, his learned reaction becomes automatic and the nervous pathways actually bypass the thinking part of his brain. The horse doesn't bother to think about why you've gathered your reins, he just knows that this is a prelude to a desired action (acceleration in the case of Macarena), and acts appropriately. Just like if I see a red traffic light. I don't bother to think about its redness, or anything at all about it, I just stop.

A trained horse may respond correctly to a cue 99% of the time. Or 98%, or maybe 99.5%. This is as close as we get to body control. But of course, "body control" is an illusion created by the horse's general amenability to our requests. There is always the remaining small percentage of times when an added stimulus will make the part of their brain that controls instinctive responses kick into action, and override the learned response. And your well-trained horse spooks or bucks or bolts, and "body control" goes out of the window for a while.

A green horse is still in the process of learning cues and developing the 99% dependable responses. Mia was clearly green, and owning her enabled you to see right through the fallacy of body control. As you rightly say, all you could do was influence her mind, and she would be the one who decided WHERE to put her feet, and HOW FAST. I also ride a green horse and I am learning that it is all about developing a partnership, so my horse will want to comply because she knows my decisions are usually solid. There is no "control" involved.

If your first horse had been well-trained and 99.9% reliable, perhaps you would still be buying into the concept of body control. You would have no reason to doubt it if your horse always responded correctly to your cues, thus creating the illusion that your legs and hands control their legs. A bit like an oversized puppet.

Until the 0.1% situation arises, when your horse does the inconceivable and doesn't respond correctly. Gottatrot wrote about that on the latest "collection" thread, about owners who felt betrayed by their horses and stopped riding because of that 0.1% moment. I guess those of us who don't buy into the body control business are lucky in that we will never feel betrayed by our horse, because we don't believe that we call ALL the shots in the first place.

I won't offer an opinion on bolting because I've never (yet) been truly bolted with. Once Macarena bolted off when she was grazing and the dog appeared out of some long grass in typical doggy fashion. I was sitting, totally relaxed, with the reins draped over her neck at the time. She gave no warning and suddenly we were galloping and I was gathering in the reins like a maniac. However, since we were in an open field - no cacti, rocks or trees - I wasn't too worried, and it wasn't a blind bolt in any case.

She was much more frightened over the dirt bike, but she didn't bolt. However, all that nervous energy has to go somewhere and, since I didn't want her to move horizontally, she moved vertically. And that's when her bucking and bouncing really began. 



gottatrot said:


> I've also learned that if the horse is truly worried and frightened, none of the disengaged body parts will stop him from tanking off for parts unknown until he feels safe. You may just get there sideways, backwards, or in another manner.


If I had allowed her to go forward as an escape, perhaps she wouldn't have learned to go sideways and backwards and upwards. Perhaps it would have been cleverer at that moment to make my stance over relative speed - you may canter but NOT gallop - instead of being so strict - you may not canter, you must walk - which caused too great a conflict for her to cope with.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms

Gotta get to work. I'll toss this out and go shave...

A French dressage rider wrote that much of his riding involved teaching the horse that it could move WITH a rider the way it could move WITHOUT a rider. Hmmmm...


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## Woodhaven

When I had my first dressage lesson and was instructed on all the steps needed for walking a horse through a turn, I listened carefully and proceeded to do them as I approached my turn, seat, weight, legs, hands etc, etc and Oh crap the corner is back there and I didn't even have a chance to do it all.
The one thing is (and I did learn it) this will all come together as one fluid motion with practice and you won't even be conscious of doing it.


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## tinyliny

bsms said:


> Gotta get to work. I'll toss this out and go shave...
> 
> A French dressage rider wrote that much of his riding involved teaching the horse that it could move WITH a rider the way it could move WITHOUT a rider. Hmmmm...



Charles DeKunfy talks about how dressage is really about taking a horse's evasions and putting them to use.

like bending. the horse will often bend and step under his belly while passing something scarey so that he keeps his vulnerable underbelly further away from the scary thing, while keeping a good eye on it.


I'll have to go back and read that book again to remember the other examples he gave. but, he does talk about not freaking out when the horse spooks/bolts a few steps, but rather riding in a way to not threaten the hrose's balance, then taking that speed/impulsion and morphing it into what YOU want, bringing the horse along with you.

it's the old "first you get with your horse, then you get your horse with you"


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## Dehda01

My young horses don't get to have a say in their training. They don't know what they dont know, and their poor decision making could get us killed out on the trail. I have no problem having a fully broke horse being a partner and offering a discussion on the trail, or in the ring, but I still have the option to veto at any time. It is not a 50/50 partnership even on a well-broke horse until the horses are will to pay the mortgage and their vet bills.

But a young horse needs to have a LEADER, giving clear cut directions, until they are well broke and fully know their job in many different circumstances. And yes, in the beginning, I am the boss and not a friend. Just like a parent... or a school teacher... or sargent in the army. That is where I use dressage training to create a good trail horse. 

Later comes an easier partnership. But breaking young horses is not always fun, and has to be seen as a job. I go in with a goal for a day... week... and month. And tweak as needed. And eventually, we can play and have a good time. I prefer a well-broke horse anyday. But you have to get there with some hard work. But the first year or two, I say go... and the answer needs to be "Yes, Ma'am- what speed?"


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## gottatrot

Bondre said:


> ...if you look on dressage sites you can find lists of cues for different movements, as if they were recipes for making a cake...Since I came to realise that ANYTHING can be a cue if you teach it to your horse, I feel so much happier about the idea of training...
> 
> Seriously though, I am quite sure that most horses are capable of bending correctly on their own. I believe they will naturally move in the most efficient manner, which is with their hind legs following their front rather than heading off to one side in a twisted lateral fashion...
> 
> I like your approach. Teach the horse to turn with lots of practice, and he will learn where best to put his feet all by himself...
> 
> I guess those of us who don't buy into the body control business are lucky in that we will never feel betrayed by our horse, because we don't believe that we call ALL the shots in the first place...
> 
> If I had allowed her to go forward as an escape, perhaps she wouldn't have learned to go sideways and backwards and upwards. Perhaps it would have been cleverer at that moment to make my stance over relative speed - you may canter but NOT gallop - instead of being so strict - you may not canter, you must walk - which caused too great a conflict for her to cope with.


It would take an exceptionally clever and physically talented rider to manage to teach a horse all the cues in those complicated recipes. I'm relieved to no longer feel I need to try. The pushing and pulling is easy. It's the perfectly timed release that rewards the horse that is very difficult. 

I feel I taught as many evasions as cues. Why is the horse falling out through the shoulder and etc? Because instead of the horse understanding they are going to travel around that cone and then head in another direction, the horse is reacting to pressures that are pulling and pushing at them. 

Another issue with bending is the natural athleticism and balance of the horse. Secretariat would line up his hind end perfectly with his front end regardless of bend or speed. When I saw Hickstead jump I could look down the channel between his legs and it was like he had a post on each corner. Some of our horses are not so perfectly aligned, and may need to compensate with the rest of their body. That's why letting the horse figure out how to use his own body is better than applying a formula. 

Regarding going forward as an escape rather than controlling the speed...that's the sort of thing these tricky horses are teaching us. It is so difficult to react perfectly when their responses are coming at us so quickly. In the moment we make mistakes. But it really stretches us as riders and teaches us how to be horsemen - reading the horse in the moment and being flexible rather than applying formulas.


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## bsms

Dehda01 said:


> My young horses don't get to have a say in their training. They don't know what they dont know, and their poor decision making could get us killed out on the trail. I have no problem having a fully broke horse being a partner and offering a discussion on the trail, or in the ring, but I still have the option to veto at any time....But the first year or two, I say go... and the answer needs to be "Yes, Ma'am- what speed?"


I have a different approach, possibly because I learned to ride on Mia, and there was no "My way or the highway" with Mia. The one time I tried, I beat her rear end with a doubled over split rein - 8' long, doubled to make a 4' long double leather whip. Whipped her hard, and harder, and the harder I whipped her, the faster we went...*backwards*!

Mia was fully aware she had 4 feet on the ground and I had zero, and she was not going to be FORCED. A horse like that teaches you about George Morris's "Back door approach" because confrontation is simply a case of "This will profit you not" - said by the horse to the rider! Morris said thoroughbreds would fight in situations cooler horses would submit to - and so will some Arabians. 

With Bandit, I'm learning it is not a dangerous approach, either. By a 50:50 partnership, I mean we BOTH get a say. If he wants to turn and run away - well, not without one hell of a fight, he isn't! But I'm not going to try to force him to go up to something he is genuinely afraid of, either. My goal is to go past scary things on slack reins, because a horse who goes by on slack reins has accepted my judgment. A horse who is forced past may still think the thing is scary.

If I say turn right and Bandit wants to go left...odds are, we're going to go right. I know more about what lies ahead than he does. But if the footing is questionable, we may go left.

It is my responsibility as a rider not to put us into positions where "poor decision making can get us killed". But I do need to accept situations where poor decision making can get us uncomfortable. Why?

Because the key to wisdom is good judgment. The key to good judgment is experience. And the key to experience is...bad judgment. A horse who never gets to make mistakes will never learn from them. And from what I'm seeing with him, and to a lesser extent with Mia before him, is that with encouragement and some timely suggestions, he is capable of better judgment than I originally assumed.

Mia didn't know how to sidepass in an arena. She did in the desert, when we needed to. Like my wife, she pretty much had already decided what we needed to do. She only 'asked me' as a courtesy. So when I cued her, I was agreeing with her - and she would sidepass nicely. But in an arena? No way.

If Bandit is afraid to go past something, we have some options. I can ask him to trot past. The threat envelope is smaller, after all, for a horse who is already going faster!

Or I can suggest we pick our way between a few cactus and go around at a 'safer' distance. This has the advantage of making him concentrate on his footing, too.

We can stop and wait. I can act confident, and wait until HE is ready to move forward. To date, the longest I've needed to wait was under 5 minutes.

Or maybe I will turn him back, WALK back 50-100 feet, until he feels safe again - dismount, then lead him slowly until he HAS walked past it. This, again, has never taken more than 5 minutes or so.

All of this avoids the explosive, "_Hell no! I won't go!_" followed by my shouting "_Oh yes you will!_" With time, what I am seeing is that he is more likely to accept my judgment right away. 

But no...I don't ride him along railroad tracks when a train is coming. I base how hard I press him on what I think he can do, not on what I know he cannot do. I didn't start math with calculus, and I see no reason to expect Bandit to accept railroad trains. Maybe someday. Not any time soon, though.

Judging from his previous owner, Bandit COULD be forced to go past things, although he told me Bandit could be a tough ride doing so. Using my approach...we don't have tough rides. We may have an occasional challenging one, and I may by accident press too hard and end up with a tough ride. But if done right, we won't have very many confrontations, because I'll be using "the back door". If I can find it. And finding the back door is another name for good horsemanship, IMHO.

"_But a young horse needs to have a LEADER_"

Yes. I agree. A *leader*, not a *commander*. I spent 25 years in the military, and there is a huge difference. Leadership is when you convince the other person that what you want is also what they want...maybe even that it was their idea to begin with! :think: Commanding is just giving orders.


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## Dehda01

A leader does not force a horse to go somewhere. Shaping is a better terminology. I ride Arabs, and I had to learn how to be smarter than they are. You can't force anything, but you need to be three steps ahead of them at all times. Shaping the body, and speed. 

Reading about Mia makes me think back to one of my first Arabs and many of the training lessons I had with him. My Arabian horses need a confident rider. You put a wishy washy person on them and they get scared. Someone has to be a leader and they will step up if they are forced to... But they don't want to. And they make stupid mistakes when they are young. 

My more experienced Arabians are whole different balls of wax! They will mention changes in terrain, wild animals, humans and we can discuss...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms

"_But they don't want to._"

Bandit (1/2 Arabian, 1/2 mustang) is like that sometimes.
Bandit: "Just TELL me!"

bsms: "Let's work on it together."

Bandit: "No, telling me is OK...really, I don't mind..."​And sometimes, that IS the right answer for him. Or at least, strongly suggest...bsms: "We could turn off the path here if you like."

Bandit: "Here is fine! Thinking is HARD!":rofl:​There is a balance there, and I won't pretend I find it all the time. Miss it a lot, in fact. That is because I need wisdom, which is rooted in good judgment, which is rooted in experience...:wink:

When we finish a ride, he often rubs his head against my shoulder. All that thinking makes a horse's head hurt! But "shaping" is a good way to think of it!


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## Dehda01

Yes, a young horse isn't ready to make decisions. They aren't wise enough, yet. And that is ok. 

It is kind of like dealing with a teenager on a hiking trip... They might think they are smart enough to lead the group and move rattlesnakes off the trail safely but they really aren't. They don't have enough life experience yet. They need to be told what to do 90% of the time. And eventually, they will know every thing they need to know in order to be good citizens and how to keep people safe. But not yet. 

So when a young horse says I need you to think for me, and you say we need to think this through together- he starts to question who is in charge. Because at that moment, he needs you to lead him through the scary thing. Because he is scared. I am not telling you to slam on his face, beat on his sides and force him over to it. In fact, I would like you to be leading from miles away from the scary thing. But you can ride a horse past with lightish( I like enough contact that I am not going to be bolted off or could do an emergency stop if I needed to depending on the horse I am riding) contact by scary things as long as there is enough room to be safe. And then school past them 3-4 times until they are no longer scary...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms

"_So when a young horse says I need you to think for me, and you say we need to think this through together- he starts to question who is in charge. Because at that moment, he needs you to lead him through the scary thing._"​I disagree. He needs support. Maybe guidance. Encouragement.

But his previous rider did the 'just push him past' thing and he was still tense after several YEARS of riding and many miles of endurance racing in the Four Corners region. He would go fine until he couldn't, then explode.

I took what I had learned from Mia over the 7 years I owned her before swapping her for Bandit, thought about it, and decided horses are more like people than people give them credit for. Humans learn to trust someone by seeing that the person knows what is going on and has good ideas. I figured horses could do the same.

I saw no evidence that horses learn trust in a round pen. To learn trust, they first need to be in a situation that NEEDS good judgment.

I'm not asking Bandit to think FOR me. But I do expect him to tell me he is worried - something he didn't do, at the beginning.

Once worried, I expect us to find a mutually acceptable way to handle things. Turning around and running away is not acceptable to me. Riding right up to it probably isn't acceptable to him. So WE find a compromise.

That may just mean I slide my legs a little forward to provide a "fence" on either side, letting him know I think straight ahead will work. And then going straight ahead slowly enough for him to see his rider's calmness makes sense.

It may mean going forward like that 20 feet to get past a bunch of prickly pear cactus, then a little leg pressure or a neck rein to say, "Why don't we move over here? We can pick our way between the cactus." By that time, he is ready to listen to a suggestion.

There are a variety of options. If I do NOTHING, then there is no reason for him to trust me. I'm just weight on his back. But if I ENCOURAGE him to go forward, with slack reins and just my legs slid a little forward, and he can handle it, then I am offering a solution, he is trying it, and when it works, he is learning I have good ideas.

But both Mia and Bandit handle scary stuff far better when I emphasize slack reins (not always possible, BTW - a person sometimes NEEDS to jump in the mouth if things go too far - but part of my job is trying to prevent situations where things have gone to far from happening) and mutual decisions.

Bandit turns 8 this year. He has run hundreds of miles in races (of a sort), and been ridden up to 30 miles a day - all before I got him. And yet, *he was still very nervous about things!* In his case, with how he had been ridden, "wet saddle blankets" had NOT made him confident or eager!

We haven't ridden much in recent months. Maybe 20 times total since mid-November. During that time, though, I can't recall him balking at much if another horse is near, and he hasn't tried to do a 180 solo. We don't ride out far solo yet. One of the lessons I learned from Mia was that it took her FAR longer to calm on the inside than I realized, and I needed to take smaller steps than I was trying.

So this is a work in progress. Not THE answer. But the improvement I'm seeing makes me thing it might be a good, if slow, answer. One that lots of riders could do, even if they don't have tons of confidence. Because it takes time, but it also allows the rider to gain confidence in the horse even as the horse is gaining confidence in the rider. When part of your goal is to PREVENT any blow-ups from happening, when you try to out-think the horse so that a confrontation won't be needed, then there isn't much to make a rider scared.

Mia sometimes scared the heck out of me! I've been shot at (badly) quite a few times in combat, but that didn't scare me. *Mia did*. If that makes me a weenie, then a weenie I am!

I'm sure I've already posted it on this thread, but I'll post it again for anyone who hasn't read the entire thread, or just because it is easy to post and it formed the foundation for how I learned to approach things will Mia, and what I've expanded in my approach with Bandit:








​ 
Giving the horse an out - keeping "the cage door ajar" - worked better for me with Mia than anything else I've tried.

That doesn't mean one abandons the horse or leave him with ZERO direction. And it allows me to still be as directive and forceful as needed to prevent really bad decisions, but I think horses do well when not limited to ONE choice.

There is a theory on raising kids. It says that when possible, you don't tell a kid "Do X. Because I say so!" Instead, you say, "You can do X or Y. Which do you prefer?" That doesn't work with a 2 year old. Works well when they are 8 or 10. By the teens...well, a parent is doing well if the teen even talks to them! But honestly, in their teens, our kids DID talk to us - maybe because at 8, we said, "You can do X or Y. Which do you prefer?"

Suppose a horse has been ridden like this for 15 years:

"_Before every turn or circle the rider should prepare the horse with a half halt and transfer his weight a little to the inside seat bone, in the direction of the movement._

_ The horse should then be flexed in the same direction. The inside rein should guide the horse into the turn, the rider’s inside leg, close to the girth, causing the horse’s inside hind leg to reach further forward. The outside rein should yield just enough to allow the horse to flex to the inside, while at the same time it restrains the horse from falling out over the outside shoulder. The outside leg should control the quarters._

_ When the horse’s forehand is guided from the straight line into the direction of the turn, the influence of the inside rein is decreased again. The rider should ‘straighten’ the horse with the outside rein, keep the horse exactly on the line of the circle._"​A horse who isn't allowed to think for himself in a turn isn't likely to think for himself on a trail. The Cavalry taught horses to be extremely obedient, to the point this could happen:








​
I don't want a horse who is that obedient. No thanks! I want a horse with judgment - "horse sense" - and I think that requires a horse who is allowed to make mistakes, and who is required to do SOME thinking on their own.

BTW: For those who don't remember Mia, this is Mia standing next to smaller Bandit on the day we made the swap:










Mia meeting Bandit's sire, who she was later bred to:​









Saw this, so I'll comment on it too:

"_But you can ride a horse past with lightish( I like enough contact that I am not going to be bolted off or could do an emergency stop if I needed to depending on the horse I am riding) contact..._"​I don't know if it would have worked with Mia initially, since I didn't try it back them. But Mia never bolted off when I had slack in the reins, urging her forward. A bolt, to me, is when the horse has lost its mind. A horse who is thinking its way past something doesn't tend to lose its mind - because the mind IS engaged, and the rider is compromising to keep things at an acceptable level. 

I've had Bandit leap forward, but he stopped fully with a bump on a snaffle in 100'. That is not a bolt. Just a forward motion startle. Mia never did a true bolt after I switched her to a curb bit and she realized STOPPING worked better than RUNNING. She still jumped sideways some times. Would sometimes spin violently for 1-2 circles. But she never tried to run away after that - and we did a bajillion bolts before that. It was her MIND that needed to learn control, not "body control"!​


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## bsms

I ought to add: 

There is more than one right way to do things. If others use a different approach and it works well for them and their horse, I'm happy for them both. But this approach is what is working well for me, and it is in synch with my philosophy of riding. It is also what I am capable of doing.

I would never insist others do it my way. I just get upset when told what I've done is not possible, or that horses are dangerous if ridden like this. Because they don't seem to freak out and behave dangerously when I do it this way. I've done the "spinning in circles on a paved road with a car coming at us" thing before with Mia, and I don't want to try it again. By allowing my horse an out - keeping "the cage door ajar" - we don't seem to ever get to that level of tension.

Turning and running away is not an option. Most anything else - we can talk about it!


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## egrogan

When is Mia due to foal?


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## bsms

^^ Wish I knew. After seeing how Bandit had been shod, we stopped using his former owner as a farrier. Haven't had any communication since. I may try calling him to ask. Can't hurt.


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## Dehda01

The Calvary was training horses to be war machines not recreation vehicles. You are comparing apples and oranges. 

I was discussing a bolt being the scoot that horses often can do going past a new scary object. I am luck enough that I do not have a single truly bolty horse in my group. I will not continue on the trail until my horse can calmly walk past the object, we will school it until that happens. Sometimes that means we can work for 30 mins. But for the most part my horses know it is easier just to look at something, snort at it. And then walk slowly past it. I am willing to have youngsters give it whoever space they need to feel safe, but my older horses need to walk wherever I put them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dehda01

So you are climbing up to Mount Everest. You are able to outpace your Sherpa. Does that make you feel more safe? Now your Sherpa says you are getting to a really scary part of the mountain that you don't really want to go through...Would you feel better if he started offering you encouragement and telling you what a good boy you were... Or would you feel better if he gave you a clear job to do? 

I would feel better letting go of the neck patting and get down to the work part... Which is where the basic school and practice comes in. If I have practiced lateral work and speed control and can put my horses body where every I need it to go, he is going to give it to me even when he is scared and not functioning at 100%.


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## bsms

^^ Maybe it has worked for you. It hasn't worked for me. And that approach left Bandit a nervous horse after a great many wet saddle blankets.

If it works for you, great! Enjoy! I'm happy for you.

But it did NOT work well for me. Maybe it is a difference in personality, or maybe a difference in horses, or maybe a difference in riding opportunities. I don't know.

But if someone tells me "X is working well for me", I'm happy for them. Yet when I say, "Y is working well for me", I'm often told I'm wrong. That it cannot be working well for me.

I've been told on HF that it is dangerous for me to ride like this:








​ 
I was told I had no control, and trusting Mia would get us killed. Yet we came much closer to being killed when I tried to be very directive."_Now your Sherpa says you are getting to a really scary part of the mountain that you don't really want to go through...Would you feel better if he started offering you encouragement and telling you what a good boy you were... Or would you feel better if he gave you a clear job to do?_"​As long as I really WAS capable, and if we were training for a future climb, then I'd want him to offer encouragement. Because I wouldn't learn by never trying. No one learns by staying in their comfort zone. No one learns by having someone else do things for them. I guess I cannot speak for you, but I never learn unless I take some chances. So why is a horse different?

My goal isn't a horse who can be controlled, but a horse who controls himself in cooperation with me. I want a horse who is eager, not just willing. I'm more interested in training the horse's MIND than his BODY. And it makes sense to me that horses learn like humans do, and the principles of leadership I learned in the military will work with horses. So far, I like the results I'm seeing. If they prove to be an ultimate failure, I'll report that too. But they haven't. Yet.

And this approach gives ME confidence, because we don't have the blow ups. Nothing big, at least. So far, at least, I stay safer and get better results by giving up 'control' and working things out in tandem with my horse. 

"_I would feel better letting go of the neck patting and get down to the work part..._"

Ummm...I really don't believe in unicorns. Riding a horse into situations where he MIGHT make a mistake, knowing it but doing it, in a world filled with rocks and cactus, IS GETTING DOWN TO WORK. Real work. But not on "body control" in an arean, but "mind control", by the horse, in the real and sometimes dangerous world.

I like riding with my fingers:








​
I am appalled that some riders say I need to hold the reins in my fists, because otherwise the horse will rip the reins out of my fingers. I've never had a horse TRY to rip the reins out of my fingers or hands!

Hell will freeze over before I hold the reins in my fists, and ride with my elbows or try to keep contact with "supple shoulders"! I'd rather admit failure and give up riding than to ride like that. I also would much rather quit riding forever than try to "hold my horse together", or "contain him between the driving aids and restraining aids", or feel a need to give a half halt before a cue because my horse has been trained to not listen to me.

I'm not saying you ride that way, Dehda01. I have no idea how you ride and mean nothing personal.

I'm not even saying no one can ride that way. But *I'd* rather never ride than ride like that. If I cannot convince my horse that being with me is MUTUALLY beneficial, I'll sell my horses and take up riding dirt bikes. I'll either find a way to ride my friend, or not ride.








​


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## Dehda01

I don't believe in wet saddle blankets. I believe in quality wet saddle blankets.BECAUSE THAT MEANS WE ARE RIDING- which is better than many people I had a very strong personalities half Arab gelding who needed me to step up as a leader. He was a horse you could NOT FORCE, you had to make him think it was his idea. So I learned how to make the wrong thing hard and the right thing easy. He was spooky, hard headed and never got tired. But if you tried to compromised with him, he saw it as weakness, and would take a mile from you. So you had to outthink him. It took me about 13 years to learn how to properly do that. He was a smart, lazy horse. And ALL the rest of my horses have been thankful for the lessons he has taught me. Or beat into me.


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## Dehda01

I don't ride with solid contact 99% of the time. But my horses know how to accept it if they need to. I got burnt out if the show ring a long time ago, but i still take the random dressage lesson and clinic with BNT a few times a year. I have even done so in a western saddle. I don't have to use all the tools, but I like having them in my tool belt.


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## Dehda01

I think people get concerned when people talk about getting bucked off or having their horse bolting or misbehaving... And having a loose rein. Loose reins just give the horse plenty of room to go and time to get there before the rider can gather up the reins. It is just people trying to look out for you. 

I like to ride my oldest mare on the buckle most of the time in the woods- I can gallop her there, and have full control but riding in the road I always gather the reins--- "just in case" because of cars, and people, and dogs and factors out of my control.


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## bsms

Dehda01 said:


> I think people get concerned when people talk about getting bucked off or having their horse bolting or misbehaving... And having a loose rein. Loose reins just give the horse plenty of room to go and time to get there before the rider can gather up the reins. It is just people trying to look out for you...


Hogwash! It is people who haven't tried it, telling someone who does it they cannot be doing what they ARE doing!

Loose reins do not cause someone to be bucked off. Or cause a horse to bolt. Or misbehave. *What I do every ride cannot, by definition, be impossible*. Particularly since I make no pretense of being God's gift to horses!

And millions of western riders do it every day of their riding life. Without lessons. Successfully."_My young horses don't get to have a say in their training...But the first year or two, I say go... and the answer needs to be "Yes, Ma'am- what speed?" _"​If you feel the need for maintaining control with the reins, or telling a horse it has no say...well, do what works for you. On your horses. Don't ask to ride mine. And don't tell me that what has worked well for me does not work at all...

Your horses may not be able to tell you no, but I can. I don't need to buy what you are selling.


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## Dehda01

If you have loose reins and you horse spooks, it will take you longer to communicate with them than if you had shorter reins. That is a fact. You can walk a dog without a leash, but you don't do it until you have a great recall. You don't expect a horse to work a horse on a loose rein until they are well broke. Same idea of good vaquero training and getting a horse straight up in a bridle. In the beginning you are really shaping with the snaffle, then you go to a hackamore (or vice a versa- or hackamore, snaffle, hackamore depending on your mentor) and the you go curb and then spade yadda yadda. I know you also don't believe in all that. But that is STANDARD training.


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## Dehda01

Lots of riders just get lucky too


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## bsms

_"If you have loose reins and you horse spooks, it will take you longer to communicate with them than if you had shorter reins_."

If the only way you know to communicate with your horse is the reins...well, time to take some lessons, and not in dressage.

"_You don't expect a horse to work a horse on a loose rein until they are well broke._"

Yet I not only do it, I'm getting better results that way. 

But people who HAVE NOT TRIED IT want to tell me I cannot be seeing what I see, and cannot be doing what I do, because they were told it was wrong and thus they haven't tried it themselves.

My horses simply spook less often and less hard when they have options. It is exactly like Tom Roberts said - they feel more comfortable when I keep "the cage door ajar". They may startle for a moment, but they don't get overwhelmed - because they know they have options. And that I'll work with them. And that I've been right 37 out of 38 times, so I'm probably going to be right on number 39 too.

"_Lots of riders just get lucky too_"

Lots of riders never try anything new, which is why so much of riding is stuck in the past and HATES it when people discuss science and mechanics.

But here is a fact - I've never come off a horse I wasn't trying to come off. Mia stopped bolting years ago. Even did pretty good with cactus in her butt. Bandit used to be nervous, but is getting better. Much better. Still has a long way to go to becoming a good trail horse, but we'll be able to start riding regularly again in a month.

Maybe I was just lucky during all those spins and sideways jumps and even bolts, back when Mia bolted. Or maybe the seat VS Littauer teaches is a good one. Or maybe Australian saddles rock. And yeah, I've been lucky too.

But I've also TRIED a lot of things, and kept what has worked and jettisoned what has not. And one thing that did NOT work for me was trying to live in my horse's mouth, and to dominate her. So I jettisoned it.

I'm getting good results from giving a nervous horse options, and teaching him I will work WITH him and not ORDER him to blindly obey. It works for me and my horses. It may work for others. Some on this thread seem to have had similar results.

It is not a cure-all. It is not the Holy Grail of Riding. No one has to try it if they do not want to. I won't hate anyone who doesn't want to do it that way. 

But it is not invalid. Not if I am doing it. Successfully.

"_But that is STANDARD training._"

Maybe that is why I see some sour horses doing competitions. Or why some people tell me their horses want to rip the reins out of their hands...


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## Bondre

I prefer a loose rein for stressful situations too. When I say loose, I don't mean hanging in loops. I like to leave my horse's head free to move as I find this promotes relaxation and helps to get us through the stressful moments successfully. 

Maybe this is because my horse hasn't learnt to accept constant contact; she understands contact as a prelude to upping the energy, ie: an upward transition. I haven't consciously taught her this but since I always shorten the reins before asking for a trot, she has made the connection. So personally, for me and my horse, the shorter the reins and the greater the contact, the more nervous and reactive she becomes. 

I found an excellent explanation of the whys of offering your horse freedom of head movement in stressful situations in 'The Horse's Mind' by Lucy Rees. This vindicates my ideas and explains why my horse feels trapped by contact in unusual circumstances.

_Horses appear to have little ability to focus by changing the shape or position of the lens as other animals do..... they have to move their heads up and down, both in order to focus and to see at all through the slit-like pupil. When a movement in a less-sensitive part of the field (of vision) attracts their attention they are likely to: EITHER swing the head round to see the thing with both eyes; OR, tilt the head or move it up and down to put the image on a suitable place in the retina; OR, if they cannot or do not want to move the head, roll the eye for the same reason. 

When moving they can see even less clearly than when standing still, and young horses often want to stop and look at strange things; if they are not allowed to they may well get panicky. When handling or riding horses we do better by remembering the differences between their eyes and ours._

And:

_To focus on objects close beside horses must EITHER keep their heads low OR, if their heads are high, tilt them sideways. If this tilting is prevented for instance in a ridden horse, she will have to skip sideways to get further away and reduce the degree of tilting. This action ('spooking' or 'shying') is often punished by riders, either deliberately or by mistake by loss of balance and snatching at the reins. The horse then learns that such objects are likely to hurt and that they should be avoided even more quickly next time._
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ManicMini

For what it's worth, my gelding becomes much more nervous if I shorten the reins during a spook. He doesn't fight me about accepting contact but I know it just amps him up more. I ride along back roads, freeways and mountain trails complete with steep drop offs. I don't need to have his reins shortened during these times when he follows my cues from my legs and seat.

I get tired of hearing other's preaching their way of training and riding as the gospel truth and coming down on others who dare to do something different. I don't care if you've been riding for 120 years, if it doesn't work for my horse, that's all there is to it! If it doesn't work, i'll approach the situation from a different perspective and method. There shouldn't be any argument from people who have never even met my horse, are not personally going to come and try to work with him and are too narrow minded to accept there is another way of doing things. The way I see it is humans have different learning styles and it's silly to think that all horses will learn from the same methods and react to stimuli all in the same fashion.

Sorry for having a rant on your journal BSMS. I enjoy reading your entries and have utilized some of your ideas and techniques with great success with my gelding. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bondre

And while I have the book open on the table, there are some more great quotes on the chapter on horses' social life:

_It is no coincidence that all the animals we find easy to train are ones that live in groups and have this natural understanding of friendship and social contact.... Once they have learned not to fear people, horses tend to naturally generalize their social feelings and extend them to us: we become, as it were, honorary horses.... if you offer friendship to a lonely horse he will treat you as a friend; and if you show the same qualities of boldness and good judgement as a natural leader, he will follow you through thick and thin._

That's Bandit and yourself! 

And on different training methods:

_Rough breaking methods rely heavily on the aggressive side of dominance; this produces fear which, although allowing habituation, tends to confuse and prevent higher forms of learning.... More successful methods of advanced training rely on the 'focus of attention' idea to achieve submission, using relatively boring and familiar surroundings to help ensure that the horse's attention does not wander from his rider. Once trained, such horses are completely reliable in the show ring or dressage arena, for they notice nothing but their rider's cues; on the other hand they may be hopelessly anxious in circumstances where the riders attention is distracted from them or where they have to think for themselves, and dangerous when they escape. _

Well yes, I prefer not to have a horse that is mindlessly obedient and has learned helplessness through endless routine drilling. It is the meeting of two very different minds that fascinates me in riding; if I have successfully subjugated the other mind through 'advanced training' then where is the enchantment?

_There are many horses, especially pleasure horses and ponies, that have established a relation of friendship and trust with their riders rather than one of dominance and submission. While not particularly obedient in the show ring, these ponies come to be safe, tolerant and willing, as friendly and communicative to their owners as they would be to a paddock companion, and confidently wise about the world. _

See, you're not out on a limb with your ideas of establishing trust and friendship, of listening to your horse, and of wanting a horse that thinks and communicates with you. Doesn't seem so radical to me! More like good common sense.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gottatrot

Dehda01 said:


> If you have loose reins and you horse spooks, it will take you longer to communicate with them than if you had shorter reins. That is a fact. You can walk a dog without a leash, but you don't do it until you have a great recall. You don't expect a horse to work a horse on a loose rein until they are well broke. Same idea of good vaquero training and getting a horse straight up in a bridle. In the beginning you are really shaping with the snaffle, then you go to a hackamore (or vice a versa- or hackamore, snaffle, hackamore depending on your mentor) and the you go curb and then spade yadda yadda. I know you also don't believe in all that. But that is STANDARD training.


Some people ride with a static rein length and use their arms to communicate. I've learned to shorten and lengthen my reins many times each ride, and it takes me a second to go from loose rein to contact. So I am confident I can get contact whenever I need it, and I've been on a loose rein and had horses hit full gallop in a stride. As we gallop off, I'm cueing, and I've not found the horse less likely to gallop off when I've had contact, so it works well for me. 
I wouldn't call bridle horse training "standard" by any means, since it's a rare person who understands or rides a horse in a spade bit. The only Arab person I heard of doing it was Sheila Varian who recently passed away. 
Also, I'd say having a horse on a loose rein is like having a dog on a loose leash, rather than unleashed. The dog may run off, but you'll catch him at the end of the lead.

To illustrate how different types of horses respond differently and how people train differently: a friend I ride with has a Quarter horse. This horse rarely ever spooks and is unconcerned about just about everything in the environment. Yet for some reason her rider feels she ought to ride the horse straight up to every object that possibly could concern a horse. Which is fine, except going out with those of us on Arabs and Thoroughbreds, we're going along fine, passing some bucket lying in the sand, when she turns her horse off the path to go "check it out." Which makes the Arab and Thoroughbred go on high alert...uh oh, what is this thing our mellow friend is so concerned about? As the QH approaches the object, their tension grows and sometimes she'll have her horse touch the object, which makes it move or rattle, and then our horses spook. "The object is attacking our friend! Prepare to run!" 
So her horse does not need the lesson, and it only makes our lives harder. Without the lesson (when she forgets), all the horses pass by the object unconcerned. Oh well, I don't say anything because it's not my goal in life to have my horse not spook at things, and if it makes her feel better, not a big deal. 

As with Bondre, I inadvertently taught my mare that rein contact means we're going to do something exciting. Because I always let her relax on a loose rein, but took up contact for trotting or cantering (so I'd have more control), she learned the cue that contact means to prepare herself for action. It's something I'm trying to untrain. On my next horse, I plan to teach from the beginning that all gaits are performed on a loose rein, and to teach that contact is for cues only such as turn, stop or slow down. NOT for collecting, gathering, half halting, or any other such nonsense. Those things teach the horse things I don't want them to learn.

That is such an interesting thought about the horses being trained in environments so boring they focus on the rider. It explains why I could never get Amore over her paralyzing fears until I took her out on challenging trails where she could focus on a thousand things in the environment and think for herself. I could never give her the confidence she needed, she had to develop it by using her own brain and solving the problems in front of her.


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## bsms

The eye of a horse:Visual acuity and sensitivity to motion

The visual acuity of the horse, or how well it is able to see details, is around 20/33. This is slightly worse than the usual 20/20 in humans, but much better than the visual acuity of dogs (20/50), cats (20/75), and rats (20/300). However, it is difficult to test an animal's visual acuity, so the results may vary between studies.

The horse also has a "visual streak", or an area within the retina, linear in shape, with a high concentration of ganglion cells (up to 6100 cells/mm2 in the visual streak compared to the 150 and 200 cells/mm2 in the peripheral area). Horses have better acuity when the objects they are looking at fall in this region. They therefore will tilt or raise their heads, to help place the objects within the area of the visual streak.

The horse is very sensitive to motion, as motion is usually the first alert that a predator is approaching. Such motion is usually first detected in their periphery, where they have poor visual acuity, and horses will usually act defensive and run if something suddenly moves into their peripheral field of vision.

----Wiki, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equine_vision#Visual_acuity_and_sensitivity_to_motion​For the most part, a horse's eye cuts down on processing power by being a motion detector. Their vision covers a much larger AREA than ours, but their brains are not able to handle the number of "pixels" it would take if they had fine vision throughout the range. So they have a motion-detector vision almost 360 degrees, but they also have a narrow, horizontal band with the density to support resolutions 30-40 times better than the rest of their eye. It is in the fine vision part of their eye that they have vision around 20/30. The rest of the eye probably sees with 30-40 times less resolution. If YOU only had 2-3% of the resolution your eye normally has, you would be called "blind".

In essence, horses are blind over most of their vision. They can detect motion, but not what is doing the moving. For that, they need to move their head to bring the object into their fine vision - and that means moving the head in the vertical.

In addition, their binocular vision works out like this:








​ 







​ 
So when you restrain a horse's head from moving, you essentially blind them. In some horses, that acts like blinders and calms them, I guess. But is it any wonder that many horses are calmer and more confident when they can SEE things? How many of us would like to walk around in the real world with 3% of our visual acuity? I sure would not!

It may be tolerable in an arena, although I find it somewhat mean. But if others are successful doing it, and their horse is OK with it, I'll be happy for them both. But in what sense is it bad riding to let a horse see well?

The theory, I guess, is that a horse who sees things spooks. In my experience, they do...at first. But before long, they figure it out. Then things get easier.

Nor does riding with slack reins mean the same as riding with draped reins. If I think the horse might get reactive, I may slide my hand (normally one) further up the reins, and keep the slack by moving my hand forward. So I've shortened the reins, except I'm giving slack by extending my arm. And since Bandit is getting used to turning on a neck rein, kind of polo horse style, higher up on the neck than normal western rider use:








​ 
I can cue a stop or turn effectively by moving one hand. No gathering of the reins needed.

Of course, I might look a little odd with one arm extended, but so what? The reins are 'slack' - not much, but the horse doesn't care HOW much, provided he can move his head and not get pressure on his tongue and gums.

Suppose you have a pool of gas on the ground. Toss a match on it, and it burns. For an explosion, you need the gas contained. That seems to be how my horses are. As long as they have options, they don't panic. Panic is what happens when fear cannot be released in action.

I'm pretty sure it would not work for every horse. That is OK. I like how it works with mine, for my riding and my goals. And millions of western riders do it every day...


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## bsms

Today: I won't leave for work until noon. Great! I can go ride for an hour at 9 AM!

So...at 8:45 AM, the wind hits. Shakes all the windows of the house. Winds are now 20 with gusts to 30. Bandit handles wind better than I do, but neither of us enjoy it and I really dislike riding when it feels like the wind is trying to remove me from the horse!

Next chance...Friday.

On the bright side, it looks like the Zilco Flower Hackamore I ordered should arrive tomorrow, so we can try it out on Friday. Forecast is 72 degrees, sunny, 10 mph winds.


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## Bondre

Funny, you've ordered the same hackamore as I did! I hope Bandit likes it. I've just tried it once on Macarena and she was fine, but I need to make further adjustments....

What a bummer about the wind. Nothing worse for riding. Horses don't like it either - when they get the wind in their tails things can go pear-shaped ;-)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms

I'll try it Friday. Won't get a chance the next couple of days.


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## bsms

​ 
Had a chance this morning to try the flower hackamore (Zilco) that arrived this week. I had thought about sticking to a bit today, since I literally cannot remember the last day I rode Bandit, but then decided to give it a try.

From the ground, I pulled back on both reins to apply pressure, and waited. He ignored it for about 30 seconds, then gave a little tip of the nose. I immediately released the reins. By the 4th time, he was tipping his nose down almost as fast as I got pressure on the reins, so I tried riding. We mostly stayed in our little arena today, working with the cones of confusion and working on stops, trotting and a little bit on a canter. We went for 35 minutes, then I felt we had both worked enough. We may try riding this afternoon if the weather holds nice.

So how was it? Too soon to be certain.

Bandit neck reins very nicely now, although we use a 'polo style' of neck rein. I'm glad, because he would have been a challenge if he hadn't been good at neck reining. He obviously was a little confused. We could ride OK, but he was acting a bit uncertain. That is not surprising, nor is it a fault of the hackamore. The cues are similar in feel, enough that he could get the idea, but it obviously is DIFFERENT without a bit.

However, with practice, he started turning well. Stops? Well, fine in the arena, but I don't think there is very much "WHOA!!!" in this set up. Still, he is not the same as Mia, and a lot of WHOA is not needed very often with him. So we did practice stops...usually using a patch of grass so I could say, "If you stop quickly, you can eat".

But he was kind of nervy today. It could be because it has been so long since we rode, or because he was uncertain just what I was asking, or because he felt less constrained and therefor less protected. However, that could be something that will resolve itself with more riding and experience.

On a very positive note, his trot was fantastic. By far the best he has ever done. He didn't pull, and he didn't brace his back. He gave a LOT of lift to the front end - don't know if it was nervousness on his part, or feeling free. I'm inclined to think the latter, because he didn't tense his back like he does when nervous. It was just a shockingly 'collected' trot - lots of lift, lots of suspension, no signs of pulling himself around on the front end.

He could be lazy, but if you urged him forward just a bit, he lifted. We actually trotted the cones of confusion some today, and he did some of them well. Not all, but by far his best effort to date at a trot.

It is interesting, because there was, by definition, no "ABSTOSSEN":
_"Abstossen is a German riding term meaning “to push oneself off.” The official instruction handbook of the German National Equestrian Federation, Advanced Techniques of Dressage, states:_

_ “Pushing off from the bit is a sign that the horse is fully accepting the contact.... [The horse] yields to the contact by bouncing back lightly and almost imperceptibly from the bit."_​Yet without the bit, he was lifting and adding "oomph" - a technical term that commoners usually call "impulsion" - to his strides.

We went out on the street briefly. He was still uncertain, but he moved forward.

Back in the arena, he spooked once. Startled at something, dipped his left shoulder and started to turn back. It got him a polo-style neck rein to stay forward along with a pop in the gut with the heels, and his startle ended with us in place, facing forward. I then pulled a "Penelope":

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/please-tell-me-isnt-common-practice-692201/

With one hand on the reins, I popped his face a couple of times, then yelled, "*Just WHAT do you think you are DOING? Huh?!?! WE do NOT do [expletive deleted] like that! EVER!*" That probably means I"m a horrible person, and abusive, but Bandit was like, "I didn't MEAN to...it just happened!"

So we spent the next 5 minutes doing circles and figure 8s in that corner of the arena, and trotted a few circles as well. Then we went back to normal riding.

It is NOT a seemless transition from using a snaffle. There is enough similarity between them, but I don't think it would be good to try on a really green horse. OTOH, Bandit might be able to transition with some more practice. He's a pretty good horse, doesn't startle often or uncontrollably, and the only question would be stopping him if he got feeling competitive. 

However, he trotted so beautifully, and didn't lose his mind when he startled, and he is still neck reining well in it. I'll need a lot more time to decide, but it has genuine potential. I could also see it as something one uses on 3 rides out of 4. A bit still has a lot to offer.

BTW, this is Bandit's lip:










When I say a bit stretches his lips, I am NOT saying it does it like the picture below...I'd as soon have my wrists broken as do this to a horse:








​
Without me pulling on the lower lip, the 'corner' is about where the lower lip touches the upper in this picture. However, you can also see how many wrinkles there are to his lip - very fleshy, with lots of folds. That is why the dentist said it would not be a problem to ride him with the bit raised higher and his lips 'stretched' - because they have a lot of stretch built in to them.


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## whisperbaby22

A a long time mechanical hackamore user, I rarely try to argue the point. I view it as a bit for a finished horse, my horses have always preferred it. Or there are just some horses that for whatever reason like it better than a bit.


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## gottatrot

> It is NOT a seemless transition from using a snaffle. There is enough similarity between them, but I don't think it would be good to try on a really green horse.


Right, I guess I'd say a flower hackamore is roughly the same as a snaffle meaning a horse that will go nicely in a certain situation in a snaffle will probably be able to go in that situation in a flower hackamore. But if a snaffle isn't enough for a horse in a certain situation (competition, scary environment), then a flower hackamore probably won't be enough either.
To me the similarities to a snaffle are that you can use direct reining, and that there is very little or no leverage. But it feels different to a horse than a bit. I think many horses transition pretty easily because they've learned about nose pressure through leading in a halter. 

I can ride Halla in the flower hackamore around the property or on a mellow ride, but I wouldn't take her out and try to gallop in it. Amore will go in it fine anywhere, but she can go anywhere in a snaffle.


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## knightrider

Wow--I just don't get why some people are so snarky with you. You just make some little innocuous comment that wouldn't offend anyone, and they jump all over you. It's a little scary. Makes me wonder if they will jump all over me. I think all of your posts are thoughtful, well written, and interesting. I look forward to reading the things you write because they make me think. Hope you know that not all of us are judgmental. And I'm sad that you have to deal with it. I hope you don't leave the forum. I wish some folks would lighten up.


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## whisperbaby22

If I offended, I'm sorry.


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## knightrider

Whisperbaby, I wasn't referring to you at all. It was on another thread, actually several other threads.


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## bsms

Not sure if I'll stay. Maybe after 8,000+ posts, it is time to quit. And no, it is definitely NOT whisperbaby22! Sharing what is going on is a way of learning, of exploring different ideas and hearing what others have encountered. But why share anything if all you are going to do is be attacked? And why is it some folks are locked into the idea that if you don't take weekly formal lessons, you are a slob of a rider? And even if they believe that, what gives them the right to say it to others, and then have no one do anything about it?

If I use the generic phrase "dressage queen", my post gets edited and I'm told to watch my tone. But if someone attacks me, personally, calling me close-minded (and to be honest, I think I have experimented and tried as many new ideas in 7 years of riding as just about anyone on the forum!) and that I ride like a slob, I'm told they are just expressing their views?

There was a recent thread on the "difficult problem" of a horse going behind the bit. But it really is NOT that difficult. Horses go behind the bit because the bit hurts. Want them to stop? Stop hurting them! I don't care if your professional instructor praises your hands. Your HORSE is telling you otherwise.

Trying to find ways to make a horse ride happy is not being a slob. It is not close-minded to try bitless options (I'm now on bitless bridle #4), and I've got a genuine, Reinsman "Tom Thumb" bit on the way, to see if it is as bad as people say, or if it truly is all in the hands. Not very many horses are subjected to trying bitless and Tom Thumb bits in the same month, but that is Bandit's burden, and Mia's before him - to have a rider who tries different things, and then LISTENS to their response!

That is far less "close-minded" than hearing something a proper riding instructor tells you, and then repeating it blindly (and loudly, and often). I've got a hunch Bandit will do well in an arena and simple trail riding bitless, but may also do fine in a Tom Thumb, since my goal is to use the bit as little as possible. But I will find out, and I will listen to what he tells me. HIS opinion counts. After all, he is the one with the bit in (or out of) his mouth!

I don't know. I don't understand people. I like Bandit a lot more than I like some of the humans I meet. Heck, he followed me around the corral when I was scooping poop today, getting wither scratches and face rubs. He wanted to go out and ride, I think. But people...

Oh well. Bandit approves of me.








​


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## Alhefner

bsms said:


> But I will find out, and I will listen to what he tells me. HIS opinion counts. After all, he is the one with the bit in (or out of) his mouth!
> 
> I don't know. I don't understand people. I like Bandit a lot more than I like some of the humans I meet. Heck, he followed me around the corral when I was scooping poop today, getting wither scratches and face rubs. He wanted to go out and ride, I think. But people...
> 
> Oh well. Bandit approves of me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​


And THAT is about the BEST endorsement a horseman can get!


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## Bondre

knightrider said:


> Wow--I just don't get why some people are so snarky with you. You just make some little innocuous comment that wouldn't offend anyone, and they jump all over you. It's a little scary. Makes me wonder if they will jump all over me. I think all of your posts are thoughtful, well written, and interesting. I look forward to reading the things you write because they make me think. Hope you know that not all of us are judgmental. And I'm sad that you have to deal with it. I hope you don't leave the forum. I wish some folks would lighten up.


I want to say I agree with Knightrider here. I think you must unwittingly threaten some peoples' comfort zones, otherwise I just don't understand why they react so negatively to your interesting posts.

I suspect that the fact you keep your horses in your backyard and don't spend a fortune on boarding or trainers or lessons, and despite all those 'failings' you persist and make advances, you observe and question and learn, makes some folks uneasy. Though I don't know why - many other forum members (like myself) keep our horses at home and don't have trainers. Perhaps it is because some of the more prominent members have followed your struggles with Mia and it sticks in their throat to admit that an adult learner who started riding a nutty mare may have learnt a ton about the art of communicating with horses thanks to the said equine headcase lol. 

Whatever, I just wanted to say that your journal is one of the few threads on the forum that I follow with eager anticipation. What has bsms done with Bandit this week? What new discovery or new theory is brewing on this journal? I love the journals (a few of them) because there is often real food for thought there, and there is always someone's small triumph to enjoy vicariously. 

Please don't stop journalling! Otherwise how will we keep up with your and Bandit's advances?? Not to mention enjoying the frequent flashes of humour.

At least in the journal section you never get to read the tiring, too-often repeated warcry of "get yourself a trainer!"

I must admit that, after almost three years on the forum, I sometimes wonder if I was criminally negligent for buying myself a young, unstarted horse when I had no prior experience in starting horses, nor did I have a trainer to guide me, or anyone at all to guide me. Yet my experiences with Macarena have been overwhelmingly positive. We have had hiccups, and are still working our way out of the barn-sour hiccup. But if I had had a trainer to fix all the problems, my relationship with my horse would not have evolved nearly so much. Nor would I have had to think things out for myself. 

A classic example of necessity being the mother of invention. If you're on your own with your horse, you try things, you observe, you listen, you think, and eventually you evolve. Together.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinyliny

I don't follow all your posts, bsms, but find they are certainly thought provoking, which is a lot more than I can say about 85% of the posts on HF.

in any case, I have to respond to this remark you made:

"There was a recent thread on the "difficult problem" of a horse going behind the bit. But it really is NOT that difficult. Horses go behind the bit because the bit hurts. Want them to stop? Stop hurting them! I don't care if your professional instructor praises your hands. Your HORSE is telling you otherwise."

I disagreed with you, (tactfully) on that thread, because, the point is that while in concept it should be easy to teach a hrose to not go behind the bit in an evasion, it isn't as easy to break that habit as you'd think, and certainly not for the OP of that thread, who was obviously a newbie. you may say, "just drop all the contact and horse will not go about avoiding it". but, you do have to have contact , at times, and that contact better work.

it's a bit like saying, " if your brakes aren't strong enough or, overheat every time you use them, stop using them" all good and well except for the time you DO need functioning brakes. and, this is really more about having the horse in front of your leg, rather than behind the bit.

if horse evades bit contact, they start evading YOU, and when the **** hits the fan, you need the horse in front of your leg, and responsive to the bit. the horse that curls way up behind it is very hard to steer or stop, which is not so easy to change, just by dropping the contact.


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## egrogan

I can't see the purpose of getting mad about what people on an internet forum say. There's too much to get mad about in real life!!

I find this journal, and several others, really useful to hear people explain how they try new things in response to puzzles their horses have laid in front of them. I have learned so much by reading for hours on this forum over the past few years. Sure, sometimes I read things that I don't agree with, or know I would never try with my own horse, or read posts where it's clear that the poster is going to get the "collective blood boiling," but I don't really get why people continue to pile on to one person. Why even read what they write if you know you don't like their opinion or think they're making a stupid choice? 

I don't know bsms, you are clearly self-aware enough to know when disagreements will be had, but I too enjoy reading your journal and hearing about the things you try with your horses. But ultimately, like we so often say about horses on this very forum, it should be fun if you're going to invest the time- so if it's more annoying than educational to post on here, why bother? I have left other forums because I didn't like the tenor of discussion or feel that I was getting much out of it, so I get it.

Since I spend a lot of my life in front of a computer, I find myself drifting to Horse Forum a good bit and will glance through topics in many different sections, but I will agree with several other posters that the "journals" section is definitely my favorite and the part I read first.


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## phantomhorse13

bsms said:


> I will listen to what he tells me. HIS opinion counts.


This alone sets you apart from many posters on HF. 

Personally, I think wanting a partner vs a robot is a lofty goal. But what do I know? I don't even use a bit (or ride in an arena) at all! :wink:

I know I would miss your posts if you go. So I hope you don't.


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## bsms

Thanks to all for the kind words. There is something wrong when simply saying one has never met a guy who got hooked on riding via arena lessons is considered pure evil and deserving of attack. But anyways...

*Bandit tries a Tom Thumb bit*​ 
I had a chance to go ride today, and the Reinsman Tom Thumb bit I ordered arrived yesterday. So today, I planned on trying it. As I took out the saddle, my wife said, "Maybe I can go ride with you today". Hmmm...she may have ridden twice since July, so saying no was not a good idea. But did I want Bandit's first ride in a curb bit, and worse, in the dreaded "Terrible Tom Thumb" be on a trail, with no arena time?

Hmmm...but Bandit is pretty level headed. And I've never been convinced a Tom Thumb deserves its bad reputation. So...just a short ride (for my wife's sake), but with Bandit needing to figure things out on the way.

Don't laugh at my wife. Riding every 3-4 months if you need to or not is not a good way to perfect one's form. But Cowboy gets along well with her, and she with him. For a horse who was given away for free with a reputation for being "naughty", he can be quite the care-taker horse - IF the rider shows him some respect and kindness.








​ 
I swapped the full sheepskin to the Abetta saddle since my wife has complained about how hard the Abetta is. No complaints today, so maybe that will help. The smaller one went on to my saddle. When my wife saw the picture, she said the wind made it look like a rabbit was attacking the saddle. Glad Bandit didn't notice!








​
But Velcro for the butt seemed a good idea in case Bandit DID panic over the "Worst Bit in the World". In fact, I got an email a week ago from Larry Trocha saying how no one should ever use a Tm Thumb, but should instead buy one of the bits Larry Trocha likes.

Well, off we went. Bandit neck reins well now, so my goal was to stay with one hand the whole ride. We mostly achieved that. I'm pretty sure Tom Thumb bits, and curb bits in general, get a bad reputation because people buy one when they have trouble keeping their horse's speed down in a snaffle. So they decide a curb bit, with LEVERAGE, will do the trick. Then they ride with continual back pressure on the reins until the horse has learned to run through the curb bit as well - ANY curb bit, although a lot of Tom Thumbs are marketed CHEAP as a "beginner's curb bit". They are not.

But ridden with slack 98% of the time, they do fine. 








​
At least, it did today. We did a few practice stops, just to see if Bandit could figure it out. By the 5th or 6th one, he was starting to get the idea. But circumstances didn't support doing a lot of practice stops.

There was one point where I needed to use two hands. I cued him to go left, and he strongly preferred right. I even more strongly preferred left, so I pulled his head around firmly to the left.

Mark Rashid, in his famous article attacking Tom Thumb bits, wrote:"_Unfortunately, confusion is precisely what happens to a horse when the Tom Thumb is used. Because of its shanks, any attempt at direct reining results in pressure on several different areas around the horse’s mouth. For instance, if you are asking the horse to turn to the left, you will be pulling on the left rein, with the idea that the pressure from the bit will be on the right side of the horse’s mouth, thereby turning the horse left. However, because the rein is attached to the bottom of a swiveling shank, pulling on the rein results in the shank turning and tipping into the left side of the horse’s face. When the shank tips, it also shifts the mouthpiece, which, in turn, puts pressure on the right side of the horse’s mouth by pulling the right side of the bit into it. You now have pressure on both sides of the horse’s mouth, as well as a shifting of the mouthpiece inside the mouth."_​Well, it does not happen. Nor could it. When I pulled Bandit's head to the left, using direct reining and force, it pulled the entire length of the shank (or cheek) to the left. It pulled the entire length of the shank AWAY from Bandit's face. No contact on the left at all. Plenty on the right. So Bandit did as he was used to doing in a D-ring snaffle - he moved away from pressure, and turned left. It worked perfectly.

You see, the shanks of a Tom Thumb (or Billy Allen) cannot twist around. A Jr Cowhorse bit can, but not a Tom Thumb or Billy Allen. There is no possibility of it twisting into the horse's face because the design holds both firmly in the vertical. So the one time I used both hands and direct reining today, the Terrible Tom Thumb behaved just like a D-ring.








​ 







​"_If this wasn’t bad enough, tipping the shank also results in the tightening up of the curb strap that is under the horse’s chin. Suddenly, the simple act of asking the horse to turn to the left is no longer a simple act. The bit is applying so much pressure in so many places, that the horse has no clue as to what you were asking for in the first place_."​This also did not happen. Sorry, Mark."_He then tries to tell you that he doesn’t understand what you want by twisting his neck and shaking his head. Of course, we look at this as him being belligerent and not wanting to do what he was told. So, we simply apply more pressure to the rein which results in an even bigger fight on his part._

_ Eventually, the horse does finally turn to the left – but only as a last resort. Before he does, he will first try several different options. Among these will be: 1) turning to the right, because the left shank tipping into the side of his face is forcing him that way; 2) lifting his head as high as he can get it; 3) dropping his head as low as he can get it; 4) backing up. Rearing is also an option which sometimes happens as well_."​Not even close. Nor is it mechanically possible for it to happen that way. In his article, he offers this evidence:










What I saw when I used two hands and direct reining with Bandit today was the entire shank pulled away from the face. Maybe my bit is of higher quality than that one, although that one looks pretty tight for the size horse wearing it.​ 
We did back up once today."_Asking the horse to stop or back up, using a Tom Thumb, often results in much the same behavior. The reason for this is, again, the bit’s design. Pulling back on the reins causes the hinged mouthpiece of the bit to collapse and jut forward and then downward inside the horse’s mouth, putting pressure on the horse’s tongue. At the same time, the bottoms of the shanks (where the reins are attached) tip backward, causing the top of the shanks to tip forward. This, in turn, causes the curb strap to tighten under the horse’s chin. Again, pressure is being applied in several different areas and this results in total confusion for the horse._"​Again, did not happen. In order to "collapse", the sides would have to come together. But the width of the horse's mouth prevents that. This is one of those things that sound like it could happen UNLESS you try it in the horse's mouth - assuming, of course, the bit otherwise fits.

I asked Bandit to back up the way we have done it in a D-ring, and in his last ride with bitless - a light bump to the reins with a small squeeze of the leg. Bandit showed no confusion. I have no sympathy with anyone trying to back their horse with brutal pressure to the rear. IIRC, it was Larry Trocha's video that taught me you back a horse by asking for motion with your leg, but blocking forward movement with the bit...so the horse tries going back. You release pressure, and soon the horse knows what the cues mean._"However, because the Tom Thumb has so many moving parts, even the lightest pressure during neck reining with it often results in the shifting of the bit. Again, the shanks tip and turn causing the curb strap to tighten, the mouthpiece to collapse and the horse to become confused. The horse usually responds by raising his head and tipping it to the outside, or in the opposite direction that you want him to turn. Our response is usually to grab the reins with both hands and direct rein the horse back in the direction we want him to go. Of course this begins the series of problems that I mentioned earlier, head shaking, head tossing, and almost total unresponsiveness to anything we ask the horse to do."_​Didn't happen with Mia. Did not happen today with Bandit. Bandit neck reins well, although we use the "polo" approach - which is also what the US Cavalry manual taught...maybe because its main author was a champion polo player.

Just about every complaint in Mark Rashid's famous and often parroted article is rooted, not in bad bit design, but in bad hands and bad training. Mia learned neck reining and stopping in a Billy Allen curb bit. She was pee-poor at both in a snaffle. Once she was good in a curb, she also was good in a snaffle. But she learned it in a curb because she resisted (successfully) in a snaffle.

Bandit never learned to resist in the snaffle. Mia did at least teach me how to teach a horse to not resist, by showing me what I did that went wrong - she also believed in "_This will profit you. This will profit you not._" Don't know if she ever met Tom Roberts, but she practiced what he preached!

So by not doing those things, Bandit never learned to resist. But since he was already good at stopping and neck reining and using an opening rein in a snaffle, and since I'm not big on jerking a horse around...it worked fine.

I rode Mia a number of times in a cheaper Tom Thumb. Eventually threw it away when cleaning out unused tack. I bought a good quality Tom Thumb this time. And I may use it. I really need to spend some time in the arena with him, working on turns and stops in a Tom Thumb, but I see no sign of the problems folks claim exist. I think the problem with the Tom Thumb is with the people who buy it "to make their horse obey", and then do the same mistakes in the Tom Thumb that they were doing in the snaffle."_What is true is that this particular style of bit has been the cause of more problem behavior than any other I have seen and is definitely not one I would recommend using – especially for the inexperienced horse person._"​I agree and disagree. The style of bit is NOT the problem. The rider's hands are the problem. But I do think a Billy Allen with 7.5 inch shanks is a better curb bit for a beginning rider to learn riding with one hand than the Tom Thumb. With ANY curb bit, the key is not to use it with constant pressure and constant contact. It is possible to ride well that way, but only if the rider is truly expert. For almost all general purpose riders, curb bits should be ridden with as little contact as possible. IMHO. But the longer shank and mouthpiece design of the Billy Allen allows for more rider error than the Tom Thumb.

This transitions into my thoughts on tinyliny's post:"_I disagreed with you, (tactfully) on that thread, because, the point is that while in concept it should be easy to teach a hrose to not go behind the bit in an evasion, it isn't as easy to break that habit as you'd think, and certainly not for the OP of that thread, who was obviously a newbie. you may say, "just drop all the contact and horse will not go about avoiding it". but, you do have to have contact , at times, and that contact better work._

_ it's a bit like saying, " if your brakes aren't strong enough or, overheat every time you use them, stop using them" all good and well except for the time you DO need functioning brakes. and, this is really more about having the horse in front of your leg, rather than behind the bit._"
​_"Doctor, Doctor, my elbow hurts every time I play tennis. What should I do?"

"Stop playing tennis!"

"But I WANT to play tennis!"

"OK, now we have a harder problem..."_​ 
Horses do not enjoy going behind the bit. Not for more than a second or two. It is work for them. It is a fundamentally uncomfortable position for them to take and hold. So why do they do it? Well, because the discomfort of the bit and how it is being used is greater than the discomfort of going behind the bit. IOW, because going behind the bit is the only way they have to avoid the pain of how the bit is being used.

So correcting it IS easy. Stop hurting their mouth. Stop going down a trail, trying to restrain your horse's forward motion with constant back pressure on the bit - which is how I taught Mia to go behind the bit! That was when I realized I was going to have to give up some control in order to have any control at all!

If she wanted to press hard to go forward, I needed to TURN her 180 and go the other way. Maybe a bunch of times, because I could turn her without getting her to go behind the bit, but I could not constantly constrain her without her going behind the bit.

I began to think of the bit as setting limits, within which she could choose. If she choose to go too fast, and wouldn't listen to a simple request to ease off the pace - the verbal cue 'easy', followed by a light bump - then maybe we needed to come to a full stop. Her personality needed freedom to make choices. With that freedom, she would accept some limits from me. So if she wanted to go fast going home, we would compromise: She could pick the speed, but I would pick the direction. We could walk home or run away from home. I needed to pick some boundaries, which would be enforced, and then allow her freedom within those boundaries.

Some horses may go well in constant contact with marginal riders. I honestly think it is more a case of many horses being unbelievably patient with riders who spend too much time in their mouths! When a horse goes behind the bit, he is telling you it hurts. I don't care if someone's instructor praises your hands, or if a judge praises your soft contact - if the horse goes behind the bit, the HORSE is saying your idea of contact hurts, enough for him to want to evade the contact.

Littauer thought riding with contact was for intermediate riders, although he said such riders should still do most of their riding without constant contact. From the videos I've seen, I think few riders really ride with light and constant contact. When a dressage manual says to keep the contact using the elbows and "supple shoulders" combined with fists on the reins to prevent the horse from ripping the reins out of your hands - YGBSM!

Ronald Reagan used to say that there WERE "simple" answers, but never "easy" answers. Doing the right thing may be simple, but it is rarely easy. But if a horse is going behind the bit, it seems to me the answer IS simple: stop applying constant and uncomfortable pressure thru the bit. But if the sport you like (jumping or dressage or some other sport) requires constant pressure, then...well, maybe you need to accept that you are not ready for the next level of that sport, or even the level you are currently at, until you have softer hands. But that would require admitting that it is the RIDER who needs to change, not the HORSE. Simple. Not easy.

BTW - this was my wife and Cowboy at the end of the ride:








​ 
I'm threatening to rename Cowboy to "Joe Cannon":










The YouTube link below is to the Joe Cannon diet...Cowboy tested, Cowboy approved:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6phteRZpLtU

And because I can...in the background, if you look carefully, you can see how Trooper feels about the other horses going out while he stays behind...he got a harder workout today than the two horses being ridden:








​


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## bsms

Looked it up...should be the FRANK Cannon diet. Cowboy to "Frank"...hmmm...guess my memory is going.

Also, just got a text picture of Mia:


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## gottatrot

Looks like Mia's breeding was successful?

Interesting topic of the Tom Thumb. I've been prejudiced against them, somewhat. But I think many of the reasons I thought they were not a good bit do not now make sense to me.

Honestly, I think there are a couple of reasons some horses do not do well with Tom Thumbs. One is that if the bit is ridden in with a curb chain, that can feel quite sharp to a horse and combined with the leverage could be more than many horses can easily tolerate. 

That's not an issue with a horse that is not ridden fast and furious, or is neck reined and ridden on a loose rein. But I think there is the same issue as with a broken-mouth kimberwicke (which I've ridden lots in), if you pull strongly on the left rein in a backward and upward motion, the horse might feel the chain biting on that side of the mouth. So instead of turning into that pressure, the horse may turn the head the other way to avoid it. This might give the idea that the bit confuses the horse, but instead it might just be too strong to be used for that type of hard direct reining. Changing to a curb strap could eliminate this problem.

As you said, the shanks work in a similar way to a full cheek or large D ring snaffle, applying pressure on the opposite side of the face to where the rein is pulling. This effect is what I've also noticed in my Myler curb. 

The other issue is that with the straight shanks, some riders with fast hands will give the horse no signal, and this can create a horse that shakes the head as the curb chain hits with no warning. So this is rider error. Also, there are very cheap Tom Thumb bits that have sharp edges and poor balance, which is true of many cheap bits. Which is why I became prejudiced against these bits in the first place, seeing them used on horses that were not trained to neck rein and with riders that startled the horses with their cues. Horses tolerate that much better in snaffles or sidepulls. 
Rather than saying the Tom Thumb is a "bad bit," I revise my opinion to saying it is a bad bit for a rider who does not understand its action and a horse that is not educated enough to use it. It could work with a green horse, but only with a very good rider who understands the bit. Similarly to a mechanical hackamore, which someone can use very carefully on a green horse, but there are much easier things to start out with.


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## egrogan

Nice to see a Mia update!

Your wife looks like she had a great time riding with you.


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## bsms

My wife enjoys Cowboy. She always rode Trooper when we went before, but Trooper tends to lag behind unless his rider insists on keeping up - and she didn't have the confidence to do that. Cowboy keeps up on his own, and will take the lead if asked. And at 13.0 hands, and with a very level head in the desert, he builds confidence. I'll go back to being an unemployed retired guy in May, so there will be a lot more time to ride together. She's the one who wanted to get horses, but watching Mia & I scared her off of riding. I think Cowboy may get her interested again. Not bad for a free pony who was "naughty"!

Tom Thumb bits have some definite faults. For a curb bit, I prefer the mouthpiece of the Billy Allen, allows the shanks to move but keeping the mouthpiece stable.

The straight shanks are something I've avoided since this picture:








​ 
If the horse carries its head at 45 degrees, the weight of even slack reins rotates the bit enough to tighten the curb strap, so any pressure then put on the reins will go instantly to the horse's mouth. If the shanks are bent 45 degrees, then the weight of the reins holds them directly below the mouthpiece, and there is still 45-60 degrees of rotation available before any pressure is put on the horse's mouth.

I haven't checked this Tom Thumb to see if it acts like that or not. It may depend in part on how the horse holds it. This picture would be fine, except there are no reins to cause the rotation:








​ 
I'll check it out further by Sunday. On the flip side, it may make it more stable in the mouth. I could imagine some horses preferring a constant pressure without movement while others would prefer no pressure and some movement. The shanks of this bit give about 2.5 times leverage, versus 3 times for most of the curb bits I've seen.

I've never used a curb chain. I bought a bit with one once, tried it on the back of my hand, and threw it away. I think a broad leather strap works to hold the top end of the shank in place, but does so in a way the horse will respond to the mouthpiece instead of the chain digging in. Haven't TRIED it, but I plan to stick with leather curb straps.

OTOH, I did get an email sent out from Larry Trocha just a week or two ago, selling his bits, and calling the Tom Thumb the worst bit ever made by man. I can go online, though, and find hundreds of bits that are far worse - English double twisted wire snaffles through some nightmare western bits that look like medieval torture devices! A Tom Thumb is a perfectly good bit for someone with experience using curbs on a horse who isn't inclined to fight back against the rider. They are NOT good bits for someone trying to learn to use a curb bit, nor are they good for someone who wants to be able to "punish the horse" when the horse acts incorrectly.

On the over 50 thread, boots mentioned a rancher who uses tom Thumb bits almost exclusively, with excellent results. But he is a very experienced rider who knows how to use a curb bit well. And the Reinsman TT runs $80 online...got mine off ebay for $40, but it is NOT a $12 bit...or $7.57, from Statelinetack:








​ 
I may or may not continue using it at times with Bandit. I need to ride him in it a few more times. But if it isn't the optimal bit, it certainly is not pure evil! It has a bad reputation in large part (IMHO) to Mark Rashid's article (and I like his books, BTW) and to people buying cheap ones and using them badly, with bad results. 

Spade bits can be used well and kindly, but they would be incredibly bad bits if bought cheap and used by someone who didn't understand what the bit was designed to do! A TT is easier to use well than a spade bit, but I would never put one in the hands of a new rider.


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## bsms

A couple more pictures and thoughts on using the Tom Thumb bit today:

It is threatening to storm, but my only day off until Sunday is Tuesday, and it has an 80% chance of rain, storms and heavy winds all day...so I got in a short ride. I could smell the moisture in the air, winds were gusty, and it is TRYING to rain...but couldn't quite get up to the level of STARTING to rain. I rode Bandit in the Tom Thumb, in the arena and out on the street. The winds were gusting harder than I've ridden him before outside the arena.

If it is giving him confusing signals, he hides his confusion well. He wanted to spook at some rocks that he has gone past many times now, but he was faking it - looking for an excuse to spook. So I held his head as straight as one can with one hand, polo-style neck reining, and popped him in the gut with both heels. He hopped forward. But he wasn't panicked or confused!

We did the cones of confusion, both neck reining and direct reining, both walking and trotting. He did it all nicely. We did a few teardrop turns around cones at a trot, and no trouble or reluctance from him. The wind and dark clouds were distracting, but I could get his attention using both one hand and two, with no sign of resistance or resentment on his part.

At one point I leaned over and took this picture, neck reining:








​ 
Not the best picture, but you can see the curb strap is loose. I also tried to see if there was any sign that the swiveling shanks caused any pressure on his face. I couldn't. The round top angles in a little, but it pulls away as much as it angles in. 

This end of ride picture interested me. This is with him standing, maximum slack in the reins - and the shanks have barely rotated:








​ 
I'm wondering if it is either because the shanks of this bit have less leverage, or if it is because Bandit has thick, fleshy lips that tend to hang down, and the bit is being prevented from rotating by the weight of his lips. I feel like I'm pulling his lips up as I put the bridle on, but there is no wrinkle to his lip. The curb strap is hanging loose. I need to try it with minimal slack in the reins as well...just forgot to, today.

So I don't know if it is the shape of Bandit's lips - which are unusual ones for a horse - or something in the design of the bit, but slack reins are not causing rotation the way they did with Mia. But I need to get my wife to take some pictures from the side to get a better idea. The end of the bit is only slightly in front of the mouthpiece, so maybe the shorter length keeps it steadier?

I've also ordered this bit:








​
Very little leverage, solid mouth...I'm thinking this might be good for a horse who neck reins well and for a rider who uses a leading rein when riding two handed, but almost never pulls back with the reins (except to cue a stop if the horse hasn't responded to seat and voice first). A mullen mouth with a bare minimum of leverage...hmmmm.... Bits fascinate me, and I don't know how to tell if one works or not without trying it. There is a lot of bad poop floating around the horse world concerning bits....


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## Chevaux

I'm really liking the look of the bit you're ordering, bsms. May I ask where you ordered it from?


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## bsms

^^ It was $60 on Statelinetack, but I ordered one 'lightly used' from ebay for $25 + $5 shipping. I'll be really interested in how Bandit responds to it.


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## bsms

Thought I'd share my riding world. These were all taken within 3/4 mile of my house, and it is the prime area I ride in. It is what we need to pass thru to get just about anywhere else, but it is also a very convenient area for riding a horse.

This is a dirt road my horses have been on uncounted times. Mia bolted on this road a few times, and got super-competitive a few more times - "*I'm fast. I'm fast. I'm fast. I'm fast.I'm fast.I'm fastI'm fastI'm fastI'm fastI'm fastfastfastfastfastfast...*", as gottatrot would put it:








​ 
I think you can see why circling is not a good option here, and neither is falling off! But it is the best place near me to let a horse go fast. It helps, though, if you can STOP them!

This is a Palo Verde tree. Most of the year, it only has green skin, no leaves. But at certain times (now), it is covered in yellow blossoms:








​ 







​ 
The other cactus get in the act this time of year, too:








​ 







​ 







​ 
Even the Ocotillo (Spanish Whip) gets in to the swing of things:








​ 
This is a wash - a dry creek bed. Anyone riding in southern Arizona is familiar with them. They are the interstates of the desert in the equine world:








​ 
It used to freak Bandit out to have plants growing on either side of him, but he now handles it fine. It look like a good place to run a horse, but I jog here regularly on foot and know there are rocks just below the surface that make the footing unstable. Good way to sprain a horse's leg, at least in the ones near me. There are some huge ones, though.

Besides that...the wife went riding with me today, on little Cowboy. She kept saying how much she likes him, in part because he looks around and acts interested in everything:




























​
He may be the horse who can get her interested in riding again! :loveshower:

All the above pictures were taken today.

BTW - a big wash about 15 miles from me, picture pulled off the Internet:








​


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## tinyliny

great photos. it's like totally the opposite from where I ride. I ride on narrow trails between tall, tall trees, green all around , and speckled sun, (if any) coming through. our trails are even narrower ( like a third that wide) so doing the circling/disengaging work can be challenging. we don't have cactus to fall onto, but there are all kinds of broken branches or sawed off stumps that can pierce your rib cage hidden under the underbrush, so a fall onto the trail side could be either soft, or deadly, you never know.


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## bsms

I spent 3 years on Whidbey Island. Well, three years with about half of it deployed to the Middle East. There is beautiful country there, but 180 out from southern Arizona.

What I noticed today was how often my thigh was 6 inches from something with big thorns. And how close Bandit came, himself. I don't know just how aware he is of them. The area he grew up in is totally open, without anything more than knee high to be seen for miles.

The big problem with Mia was her tendency to jump sideways sometimes, or spin 360-540 degrees without warning and for no known reason. But that would be a tough problem in a LOT of places, not just southern Arizona. I wasn't worried about falling off, but about going thru the cactus WITH her!

That, and the flat out running. The dirt road I pictured is the best place within a few miles of me for a running horse, but it is 1/3 mile long, and has a 90 deg bend at one end (which a galloping horse might not make), and crosses a road where people drive 60 mph at the other - and then a barbed wire fence. It wasn't running ON the dirt road that bothered me, but the challenge of getting her to stop before we ran out of dirt road!

When they raced her in open country in her new home, they went 4 miles before she was ready to call it quits. 4 miles, not 1/3 mile! I had 1/12 the distance I needed.

The wide open country of the Navajo reservation is much better suited for Mia's personality. Bandit, OTOH, may prove to be level headed about it. I'm starting him by trying to get him to trot side by side with Trooper on a paved road...trying to teach him he doesn't need to race. But I also need to have him canter up a dirt road, by himself, sometime. But I'm a coward about riding, and want to start riding again regularly for a few weeks before I try it. I think he'll do fine. I think. But I turned 58 yesterday, and age tends to make cowards of us all....

I guess the good news is that my old age caution also drives me to try to find less dangerous ways to approach riding. I've learned a lot about how to ride Bandit without ever reaching the explosive stage. And that is better riding than the courage of youth.


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## tinyliny

oh, man. I am all about comfort and safety. I do modest canters only, these days, where an obvious "stopping place' is at the top of a hill. even then my back will scream during the canter. it's pitiful. 

glad you had some two-time with the wife. it's so cool that you have that time together. my husband only ONCE put butt to saddle with me. once, about 28 years ago. he is a computer nerd and will never see the value of riding.
oh well . . . .


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## gottatrot

What a beautiful and treacherous place to ride. It seems rather amazing you rode Mia out there as long as you did. A horse that can gallop four miles has a special kind of mind, one which many Thoroughbreds do not even possess. To keep that kind of energy controlled without the ability to run off the steam regularly requires a lot of careful management. It can be quite dangerous, as you know. 

It's always a balance with horses between what is safe and what we are comfortable with. I've learned that every rider has issues with confidence in some sort of scenario. Some people who jump horses over huge, solid obstacles might get nervous in open country or on a road with traffic. That amazes me, but just like horses we become desensitized to what we are used to. Or we are frightened about things we've had bad experiences with. I've thought myself cowardly too, until I learned that some things I laugh at frighten riders far better than myself. I like the phrase, "has not yet built up the confidence for..." It applies well to humans and horses. 

My husband swears he will enjoy riding more once he learns how to post the trot. He's about a once a year rider, but always rides on vacations so has been on a horse in Montana, Ireland, Iceland, Australia and Japan. I guess you'd say he's more of an international than a domestic type rider. :wink:

It's not a bad thing, my cousin has a spouse and they are both into horses yet have strong, conflicting opinions about shoeing, supplements, breeds to own and vet care. Imagine your opposite horse person on the forum and being married to them...better to have someone more casually interested in horses, I say.


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## bsms

A lot of it boils down to trust. Can I trust the horse to slow when I say slow, or stop when I say stop?

We have an 'arena' - but it is 80' by 120' at the maximum, and an irregular shape. About 70' x 100' usable, so more a big round pen without walls than an arena. After that, all schooling has to be on pavement or on the local trails. I'm lucky. The section of land just 1/4 mile away is 160 acres of private land whose owner is in California and who has never seen it. The ATVs have created some trails on it. The section of road in the picture is a dirt road dating back to 1960, when the area around here was subdivided and mapped out for development. In 2005, 120 homes were built just east of that section, on land owned by the same guy. The plan was to build on that section, but the market collapsed and the builder went out of business - hence the two foundations sitting out there.

Along with the paved roads in our neighborhood, it it where I can experiment. Bandit still gets competitive when trotting side-by-side with Trooper. He'll do it for about 100-200 yards, then try to pull away. I think I can canter him by himself in the open without a problem, but that is going to have to wait until I have time to ride him daily for a few weeks - soon. Not sure how many days left before work ends and I go back to being retired. But NLT 1 May, maybe sooner!

My youngest canters Trooper all the time out in the open. There is no question of him taking off. He'll go fast if asked, but has no desire to do so. She's been known to drop the reins while cantering him in the desert, which gets me ****ed because I'm not willing to trust ANY horse THAT much. But in fairness to her, she's never had a problem with Trooper.

"_Even then my back will scream during the canter. It's pitiful_."

Me too. The right side, where I got hurt, is the worst. But yesterday reminded me - when I crawled out of bed this morning - just how out of riding shape I'm in. In 15 minutes, I"ll swallow 4 Motrin and get ready for work. It is true of Bandit too. In deference to my wife, we walked the whole time. By the end, he was lunging his neck and head down. Some say that is stretching the back. The discussion on how horses move has convinced me he is actually relaxing the sling of muscle that keeps the withers up. Briefly moving down to a grazing position drops his neck and back between the shoulder blades, which ought to stretch and get tension out of the sling of muscle supporting both of our weights. Either way, it is a sign he's getting tired.

I was too. 5 months at once a week means neither of us is in shape for riding. I think gottatrot has mentioned it on other threads. Sport or not, riding is an athletic activity, something both horse and rider need to work up to doing.

In fact, it says a lot about Mia's competitiveness. She was riding fit, but just for walking around. Certainly not racing fit. Yet when raced in open country against racing fit horses, with a 220+ lb rider, plus tack...she kept the lead for 2 miles out of sheer will, and kept going for another two miles before being ready to slow on her own. It probably was a good experience for her. An out of shape horse who runs that hard and that long before giving in must have a very strong inner urge.

That was why they wanted her. She comes from Crabbet lines and Russian racing lines, and they are hoping that she will pass on that will to win. If it works well this year, he hopes to get the money together to use artificial insemination to breed her to a national level endurance stallion. She has the papers, and the will! 

But gottatrot is right. That will to win is a very good thing in the right context, but a very dangerous thing in the wrong one. And my riding in the Sonoran Desert was the wrong context! Even if my nerve could handle it, there is no safe area to run a horse 4 miles, or even 1 mile, around here. And even if my nerve could handle it, my back could not.

When I start riding regularly on Bandit again, my goal will to get him cantering up that short dirt road by himself. And trotting side by side with another horse. I can understand why his previous owner said he would never be a beginner's horse, even though he hasn't a mean bone in his body. Neither did Mia. But he does have some urge to run and win in him. If I can channel it into a will to run well until asked to pull back, then he'll turn into a great trail horse.

On another thread, I talked about working with the horse's nature. His nature is not rebellious, but he has enough spirit to need it channeled constructively. Mia was simply too much for me...but I was all she had for 7 years, and she was a genuine sweetheart of a horse. Part of me misses her, but part of me is glad, too:








​

Good horse, but too much for me and my needs. I wish her well.


----------



## phantomhorse13

Does Bandit get nervous if the horse he is with gets too far away? If not, perhaps have your wife take Cowboy to the far end of the road (where you plan to stop) and stand there waiting. That might will give you some additional confidence that Bandit will stop.

I don't blame you (or anyone else) for being cautious and aware of surroundings. The thought of falling is bad enough, forget landing on spikey things!


----------



## bsms

This is copied from another thread, but it is about the things I've been learning from Bandit:



bsms said:


> Nothing wrong with being dominant and fair. Works very well for a lot of people.
> 
> Pretending one does NOT use a dominant approach, so one can sell stuff to other people, is dishonest. I think Parelli is dishonest in his approach.
> 
> I think a lot of his marketing is oriented to people I can fully understand - folks who got into horses in middle age, not sure how to go about it, maybe having been hurt before (I got hurt at the end of a bolt on Mia a couple of months after I started), overhorsed...and he markets his approach to horses as the answer for them. And me, because I was EXACTLY the sort of person he sells to. Folks who have lived around horses their entire lives, or who started off when young and fearless, aren't his target audience. The ones without experience who are overwhelmed and struggling to get their head above water - WE are the ones who are ripe for the picking.
> 
> Heck, I spent the first 3 years insisting on riding bitless, because....bits are CRUEL! Of course, I'm now fond of curb bits, and hope to try a new one with Bandit tomorrow...but I had a lot of learning to do, and Parelli's program would have dug my hole deeper.
> 
> Mia did not need daily lunging. She did benefit from a few weeks of it, by a pro (who was also teaching me), for a specific purpose.
> 
> With a lot of help from a good Australian saddle, I survived a lot of dumb things on Mia. A couple of years ago, after reading Tom Robert's books, based on his experiences starting with the British Cavalry before WW One, I began to experiment with getting my horse involved in some of the decision making. I found Mia responded much better when I included her, and tried to guide her thinking rather than substitute my own.
> 
> When I got a chance to switch her for Bandit, I took it. I'd be overhorsed with Mia if I rode her tomorrow. She's now a broodmare, and when she isn't too pregnant, will be ridden by experienced riders in open county - a much better solution for her! And me, too.
> 
> What I'm discovering with Bandit (I think, final results are not in) is that a marginal rider, with uncertainty and plagued with doubt, can feel more comfortable and trusting by taking what George Morris referred to as 'the back door' - giving my horse freedom within certain boundaries, and keeping his mind engaged by insisting he use it. If he always has an alternative that is acceptable to me and him both, then we don't have explosions. Maybe a short hop at times, but none of the spinning through someone's yard like we had at the beginning.
> 
> My guess is that a lot of older and less confident riders, including others with minimal riding skills (like me), might benefit from choosing a less dominant approach. I don't remember the book, but there is a theory of raising kids that says you get less explosions if you give kids a choice between alternatives you can live with, and let them choose which one. I think that might work as a safer but very RIDING oriented approach for folks like me - and I'm in the heart of the audience Parelli markets to.
> 
> But there is nothing wrong with being dominant AND FAIR with a horse. It probably takes more skill than I have, but it works well for a lot of people. And horses. I'm just not up to it.





bsms said:


> I read this last night, and maybe it was because I was thinking about this thread at the time, but it seems to me it applies. If so, then Baucher in the 1800s was using an idea I've been struggling to figure out over the last couple of years:"Therefore, everywhere - out-of-doors or in the haute ecole - success with horses is to him who applies this maxim of Baucher...
> 
> *'Let him think that he is our master, then he is our slave.' There dwells an eternal equestrian truth!*
> 
> '_The horse is the sole master of his forces; even with all of our vigor, by himself, the rider is powerless to increase the horse's forces. Therefor, it is for the horse to employ his forces in his own way, for himself to determine the manner of that employment so as to best fulfill the demands of his riders. If the rider tries to do it all, the horse may permit him to do so, but the horse merely drifts, and limits his efforts to those which the rider demands. On the contrary, if the horse knows that he must rely on himself, he uses himself completely, with all of his energy.'_" - 5 May 1922
> 
> -- Horse Training Outdoors and High School, Etienne Beudant (1931)​There are things my horse may want to do that are unacceptable to me, and I should oppose those with any force needed - ducking & turning & running away, bucking, bolting, etc. But I need to understand that there are things I may want to do - things that seem simple enough to me - that my horse considers unacceptable. But we are rarely confronted with situations where only two options exist, so finding a third and fourth, and deciding together with my horse which to take, prevents explosions. My horse learns to talk with me, because he knows I'll listen and take him seriously. I'm learning Bandit is a sensible fellow at heart, and doesn't view our rides as a competition between us. It would never occur to Bandit to laugh at me or denigrate me. Not unless I first provoke a spirit of animosity and grow it inside him. [Note: Earlier on the original thread, I quoted Parelli as using lungeing to convince a horse not to laugh at his rube of a rider]
> 
> It seems to me true horsemanship is working WITH the horse, not ON the horse. There are a lot of specific things that the horse needs to be trained on HOW to do, before he can willingly do them FOR the rider. Those are legitimate teaching and riding goals. Using a round pen or a lunge line to teach specific things is entirely fair, as is using one with a bad mannered horse who needs to learn humans are formidable if provoked. There are riders who bully horses, but there are horses who bully their rider. A horse who is used to bullying his rider needs to first learn that the rider sets limits and has wishes that need to be respected.
> 
> But unlike Parelli, I don't see that as a suitable lesson to continue for life. Horses have great memories. Once they learn it, move on, and teach them something else - that it is possible to work WITH their rider, together. And maybe even *'Let him think that he is our master, then he is our slave.' *If we are not capable of out-thinking our horse, we shouldn't try riding...


I've always pictured Baucher as a guy who was harsh with horses, but I think I've been unfair to him. Some of his writings indicate he was very interested in working with the horse's mind every bit as much as working with its body. *I had a person on HF tell me once they wouldn't waste their time reading a book written before 2000, because people back then didn't know all we know about horses now!
** :eek_color::eek_color:*​ 
I read Baucher's ideas for training a new person to ride. His approach would be radical, but I wonder if it wouldn't work well. He recommended what were essentially a series of stretching and balance exercises on a standing or walking horse, and repeating them daily for about a month. If I understood it, the idea was that a rider wasn't ready to ride until he had taught his body how to conform to the horse, and it wasn't fair to horse or rider to insist they do much before that change took place.

Given how tight my hips are, and how much that harms my riding...maybe Baucher was on to something!

And THIS quote could be the basis for a text on western riding:"_Therefor, it is for the horse to employ his forces in his own way, for himself to determine the manner of that employment so as to best fulfill the demands of his riders. If the rider tries to do it all, the horse may permit him to do so, but the horse merely drifts, and limits his efforts to those which the rider demands. On the contrary, if the horse knows that he must rely on himself, he uses himself completely, with all of his energy."

_:loveshower::loveshower::loveshower:

It is probably entirely unfair of me, but I love seeing that coming from a French Cavalry officer, and one who loved haute ecole too!​


----------



## bsms

This is from a thread on buying horses, but it is also about Bandit. And Mia. And me.



bsms said:


> I love reading the comments on training horses! I started at 50, spent the next 7 years completely overwhelmed with a "too much for him horse" - who I adored - and am now trying to learn riding at 58 with a horse who is much closer to my ability. I'm a better rider from the last year with Bandit, but I got hooked on riding because of Mia, and what she taught me shapes how I work Bandit.
> 
> I guess that is true of most who get horses. Unless you are a dullard who resists learning - and there are PLENTY of those around, riding after 40 years the way they did after 40 days! - you try different things, keep those that work and toss aside those that do not. One of the things I really respected about the lady who worked with Mia was that she was a bit overwhelmed too, although she had 40+ years around horses. But instead of saying, "This has worked for me before", she watched, thought, adapted, and ended up taking a very different approach with Mia - because different was what Mia needed.
> 
> Bandit has a much higher tolerance for rough handling, but that doesn't mean rough handling is what he needs. Most of the time.
> 
> "_I don't use excessive force and I only get after them if I need to. Corrections if needed are hard and fast, not drawn out with a lot of yelling._"
> 
> "_They are two sides of a same coin, meaning both are lacking in sensible use of moderation._"​
> Both of those comments struck home (as did many others). Even a Diva needs to be reminded at times that she needs to get on stage and perform...and even a stage hand can respond well to "Please".
> 
> This was yesterday:...So in the snaffle, we went riding down the street. He saw a trashcan lying on its side. So what? I asked him for a trot. As we got closer...he ducked and did a 180!
> 
> I'm not a big fan of "My Way or The Highway", but I'm also not a fan of "Duck & Spin". So I yanked his face around, and the 180 became a 360. He decided to fuss, shaking his head and stargazing. I decided if he wanted a fight, he'd get one. So in the middle of the paved street...when his head went up, my hands went up. We did lots of side to side pulling. As long as he was going to fuss, I was going to be a jerk. Literally, I suppose.
> 
> When he stopped, I stopped. Told him to go forward. He went. Not happy, but he went. We went 100 yards forward, did a 180, then 200 yards back. Then a 180, and we spent the next 25 minutes riding back and forth past that darn garbage can. With slack reins, although not a LOT of slack!
> 
> Then we went home and did some trotting in the cones of confusion. Then called it quits. When I cleaned the corral at sundown, he followed me around begging for wither scratches (which he got), so I guess he isn't traumatized. I'm all for MUTUALLY ACCEPTABLE solutions, but "Duck & Spin" ain't MUTUALLY acceptable!
> 
> Need Motrin for my back and left leg. I suspect he could use some Anbesol. The difference is I'll GET the Motrin! Wouldn't mind some red wine, but we're all out.
> 
> Horses...tell me again why I like riding? :icon_rolleyes:
> ​Looking back...I misread Bandit and pushed him harder than he was ready to go. But Bandit misread me, too, and expected to get something he didn't get from his "Duck & Spin". And after thinking about it overnight, I suspect I need to push Bandit harder. Not in the sense of kicking him or getting a whip to "make him" go forward. I think that would prove little more use than it proved on Mia years ago. But I need to accept some risk of an explosion in order to get him out of his comfort zone, because his comfort zone won't get bigger unless we push the boundaries. And when you push the boundaries, sometimes you make a mistake and PASS the boundaries!
> 
> In terms of getting a horse for a new rider, although not a totally inexperienced rider...I wouldn't worry about having all the buttons. Learning how to put the buttons on in an arena is not all that hard if you have a good instructor. It is harder but not impossible if you are trying to do it on your own, as I have. But the mutual learning is a big part of appreciating what horses are like.
> 
> Bandit came here with a lot of miles on him, mostly in a bosal. A bit, to him, meant "Slam on the emergency brakes", because that is how he was taught. He used his leg and thus his back wrong, although an 800 lb horse who carried 250 lbs of rider and saddle might have used his back poorly regardless. Try to do circles on him, and he'd do pentagons instead. Maybe squares. I was told he neck reined, but he hid it well if he did.
> 
> Without a trainer to help, he'd be too much of a problem for a brand new rider. But with a trainer...well, he likes people. He's a forgiving horse. He lacks confidence, but isn't timid. He'll tolerate rough handling, but doesn't like it. He needed 6 months without shoes to figure out how to use his feet and leg correctly. He still prefers to be trotted in two point, but two point is an outstanding way to learn and practice moving with your horse's balance.
> 
> If his leg hadn't been screwed up with bad shoeing, I suspect elle1959 and a trainer could have had him doing well in 3-4 months. A Colonel told me once he hired people based on attitude. "_I can teach them how to do the job, but it is hard to teach a good attitude._" That mirrors my experience. If someone had a good attitude, I could teach them almost anything. If they didn't, then sometimes my best efforts left me with a lump of rock salt wearing a uniform.
> 
> I've come to appreciate Bandit for who he is and what he is teaching me. I might sell him in a year. Or I might keep him for 20. I miss the manners and attitude of the two Arabian mares I've owned, and would actually like to replace him with a young Arabian mare...just not quite as much of an "Arabian Mare" as Mia was!
> 
> It is also OK to buy a horse knowing you might ride him for 1-3 years, then move on. If you improve the horse in that time, and get him/her softer and more responsive, there will be a market at the end. But if I ever buy another horse, I'll look for decent conformation and the right attitude. I'll assume the buttons are missing, and it is up to me to sew them on - maybe with a trainer's help. That is part of the fun.


Bandit won't be up for sale any time soon. He needs a lot of work to get him to "good trail horse" status, and he has a lot he can still teach me. He might stay with me until he dies. He isn't perfect, but he is teachable. Hopefully, he feels the same about me!


----------



## bsms

This is from the same thread on buying a new horse, and has me wondering...boldface mine, not in the original:



walkinthewalk said:


> ...I have one perfectly fine horse in the pasture. Excellent ground manners. I can move his 16.1H self with one finger on his chest, his forearm, his rump.
> 
> I can pick up his hooves with a one-finger tap on the fetlock joint.
> 
> I fall under him sometimes and he holds his breath until I get up.
> 
> But there is the little matter of his insecurity when he is alone, going down the road. He can dip & spin to give me change for dime, and make a lot of QH's who do that for a living look bad. *It's his inherent nature, he's never grown out of it, no matter how many miles I put on him.*
> 
> The last time he did that, I honestly heard my back snap while I was "riding him out". I probably should have had a saddle on him but I didn't. Now he's gained so much weight I don't have a saddle that fits him.
> 
> PLEASE buy a horse so I can stop looking at all these great finds:grin:


Mia got a lot better, but she still had times when she would spin without any reason I could figure out, or jump sideways. She would be totally calm before, explode, then be totally calm again.

Bandit doesn't have those episodes, and he is much less jumpy than he was last May. He also almost always gives some warning...easily 90% plus with warning.

But to what extent are these things inherent to horses? I cannot imagine Cowboy spinning hard without a lot of warning, and I cannot imagine him jumping sideways for no known cause. Trooper has been known to give a jolt in his back, and maybe slide over sideways, but I cannot recall him ever spinning 180. I'd like to believe one could train bad reactions out of a horse, but I'm pretty sure a good Border Collie will have a strong herding instinct regardless of how much training one does.

So is it something a rider just needs to learn to deal with? I know they make a mechanical horse to help teach riders to sit a trot or canter. Should they make one that ducks its shoulder and turns 180 hard, so a rider could practice a "Duck & Spin" while surrounded by pillows instead of pavement?

I'm pretty sure Mia will ALWAYS have a sideways hop in her, and a violent spin in her, too. I berate myself for not being able to train it out of her, but I pretty much concluded last spring that it was just something I needed to accept, and learn to ride it out and keep going. 

Then the chance came to send her someplace where the riders were experienced and she would never be surrounded by cactus, and for Bandit to come here. Win/win for both of us.

But is the rare D&S just something Bandit will always do? It IS rare. It has been months since he did a 180, versus nearly daily when he arrived. But it seems to me riding instructors ought to teach new riders about staying on when the horse hits the fan, so to speak. 

And that is why the Australian saddle was probably a life-saver for me. The poleys make it very hard for a horse to spin out from under you. This saddle design is practically made for a horse who spins, versus what I also tried riding Mia in (below):








​ 






​ 
The other day, if there had been no sheepskin on my saddle, I'd have slid off Bandit. Completely unpadded, hard polished leather combines with blue jeans like roller skates combine with sheet ice. Add in that I probably should have bought a 15" saddle instead of 16", and the sheepskin is, IMHO, a more important safety feature than my helmet - although I plan to keep using both. The thought of slamming into a paved road head first is enough incentive to ride with a helmet for life! Heck, that is how Caprilli died!

But I'm curious as to what others think. Has anyone else come to the same conclusion? Or a different one?

:think:​


----------



## knightrider

My heart horse Chorro is a champion at duck and spin-bolt. I bought him as a yearling and trained him myself. He is now 12, and though he can do a pretty big spook, his duck and spins have calmed down a lot. I imagine at age 17 or thereabouts, I won't have to warn people who ride him that he jumps very far very fast with NO warning. And it doesn't matter if you are completely relaxed or riding tight and aware. It doesn't matter if you have an Aussie saddle (I do). If he jumps five feet sideways while doing a 180, I am OFF.

On the other hand, I have not come off him in 3 years. I can tell that he is toning down his spin bolts. He is doing much better.

My neighbor had a gaited Cracker horse appropriately named Booger who could even outjump outspin my Chorro. He toned down at 17, just doing normal spooks now.

I believe that both of those horses have that "inherent nature" that they will not completely grow out of, but do improve quite a lot with lots of riding and age.


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## weeedlady

*Knightrider* you have given me hope. Raven is 13, so maybe I only hav to hang on for 4 more years and she will calm down also


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## walkinthewalk

I think the spook factor in a horse is the same as in humans. 

Each of us not only has a different *level* of reaction but a different *type* of reaction to the same Stimulus.

Dip-and-spin Rusty has been with me 19 of his 22 years. If he is on a trail where his own safety is in jeopardy, he will never spook. He bears down and gets the job done with hardly a cue from me.

Get him in the wide open or going down the road without Duke beside him and all bets are off, except there might be a trip to the ER.

He is such a contradiction.

Back when I was hard trail riding, he got a lot of miles put on him by various intermediate level riders. What they all had in common to successfully ride Rusty was the "no-fear" t-shirts they all wore, lol

I think the inherent natural instinct to spook in the manner each horse does, never leaves them. In the 18 months since I have laid Duke & Streeter to rest, I have watched Rusty's spook factor increase in the pasture.

He has allowed himself to become afraid on my John Deere when I am mowing and have the front bucket clear up, so I don't take out the fence. Even though he never has liked the noise from the diesel motor, he used to pin his ears and stand-------------safely beside Duke.

When I have said in the past that Rusty fell completely apart, losing Duke & Steeter, I was not making that up.

Joker has always been the #4 horse in the pecking order. He still acknowledges Rusty ahead of him but when it comes to spooking over dumb things, he thinks Rusty has a screw loose, lol

When I was riding, Joker would either spook in place or jump forward just a bit. He never flat out bolted. 

Duke and Streeter didn't have a lick of spook to them. Except for one time when a fawn came out of the thrashing, ran under Duke's belly and he left me in mid-air to crash to the ground like a cartoon character, lol. Again, no saddle, I don't use saddles but I like the looks of *bsms* saddle with the knee braces


----------



## bsms

Our bit arrangement today:


















​ 
I gave up using that Billy Allen curb as a curb because the small, almost round rings at the mouthpiece sometimes got caught on the curb strap, which tends (with this bit) to hang down vertically. But it has a very nicely shaped sweet iron mouthpiece, with a copper roller in the middle, and it occurred to me those rings might work well for using it like a snaffle.

So I tried it. Think of it as a Billy Allen Baucher Bit! Looks to be very stable and quiet, and Bandit rode great today with it. This is Bandit going down the wash with slack reins. Not DRAPED reins, but slack:








​ 
The wife volunteered to go with me, riding Cowboy. She was laughing and smiling at the end of the hour ride, so I think it went well. Don't know if it was our CTJ meeting on the last ride, or the additional horse, or the lack of garbage cans...but Bandit rode great. Mostly walking because my wife gets nervous about trotting, although we trotted 50 yards a few times just to get her started.


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## waresbear

:cowboy: Bsms and his bit studies, lol.


----------



## elle1959

I love it. I wish I'd had time to do a proper bit study on Gracie while I was back east. Her owner thought she'd do best for a "novice" in a hackamore, but she pretty much walked through that and the snaffle I put her in later. She shook her head equal amounts in both, and I never did really feel like I had firm control all the time. It was more like she allowed me control when it suited her, but isn't that pretty much always the case? I think some horses just allow it more than others.


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## tinyliny

does that mean he would go as well in a billy allen mouthed snaffle? and, do you hang the curb strap from the loops at the mouth piece, or the ones where the bridle pieces attach? (the uppermost ones)


----------



## bsms

The curb strap attaches to the upper end. But it then hung straight down, and as you can see, that put it next to the round part. The curb strap had a round area where it folds over and buckles, and that section could catch on the round ring. It happened enough that I stopped using that bit.

I have two Billy Allen snaffles. The one by Dutton is shaped in a way that, using a D-ring, it curves down in Bandit's mouth, too close to the canines for comfort due to the shape of his mouth. It also feels like there is a weak connection, as it it could break apart someday.

The one by Greg Darnell is built like a tank, but the roller is only for show - it doesn't, in fact, roll. Nor are the sides independent. It is totally fixed:










It is the bit I've used the most with him. And it works OK. But I saw the old one sitting on my bookshelf and I really like how it is built. The truly independent sides, the copper roller that actually rolls, the shape of the sweet iron, the way it is very solid feeling without being heavy...and it seemed a shame to just have it sitting there on the bookshelf!

So I tried it today. One good ride does not mean success, particularly since we didn't actually DO much today. But it looks to be more stable than a D-ring, and worked well for plow reining and using an opening rein. He seemed to neck rein OK, but like I said...we didn't do anything demanding.

He did fine in the Tom Thumb as well, but I needed to concentrate more with it, and I could see it being too severe if he acted up and I needed to get in his mouth. The other one I bought was a total loss, other than proving that what looks good to me may go over with my horse like a turd in a punchbowl. I'll probably alternate between this bit and bitless for a while. He goes well bitless in our little arena, but I'm not sure it would be up to having an argument with him...and we have those at times. Not often, but it would really suck to lose one of those arguments!

BTW - I just looked up Baucher bits. 3 of 8 websites said it had leverage, which is false. Four more said it created poll pressure, which it does not. One web site used this picture and said it showed the poll pressure:










I'll be darned if I see it, and of course, Bandit never holds his head like that. His nose is 45-60 degrees below the horizon, and a pull back cannot rotate the bit.


----------



## gottatrot

Thank you for the bit studies, they are useful and interesting. I can't figure out why you could even make that center piece in the Greg Darnell bit. Why not just make it a smooth mullen if it doesn't roll or allow the sides independent movement? Odd. 
I agree that the Baucher does not add any poll pressure. I made a Baucher with my Pelham by riding on the snaffle rein, and I could not create any poll pressure when I tested it with my hand under the crown.


----------



## bsms

My wife called in to where she volunteers to tell them she would be in late - so she could go riding this morning. Its the first time she's ridden 4 times in a week!

She took the camera today, so the pictures were of my daughter and I. My youngest, riding Trooper, who hasn't been ridden in a month but who is the same as he always is...with her. None too fond of ME, but he'll fall asleep being ridden by my youngest:








​ 
After waiting for the other two, Bandit and I are turning to enter the wash I pictured earlier. This is what I mean by polo-style neck reining. Not a draped rein, and not against the withers. I've read that placing the reins against the horse's neck like that confuses the horse, since it apparently pulls the bit the other direction. All I can say is Bandit had no trouble learning it, and now does it well. Once the cue is learned, it is learned. The horse doesn't think, "_But the bit feels like X when he is asking for Y_". He feels the rein against his neck and knows what to do. It only goes against his neck like that for one reason, so there is nothing for him to be confused by. 








​ 
The Palo Verde tree near Bandit's head is the I one used to take the pictures of its yellow flowers a few posts back.

This is a good picture of the desert I love. Small white flowers in the lower right corner. Yellow flowers. Teddy Bear Cholla on the far left, growing face high to a rider. Yellow flower on a prickly pear cactus in the lower left corner. Click to enlarge if you are curious about the southern Arizona desert:








​ 
Bandit & I killing time on a nice dirt road, waiting for my wife and daughter to catch up:








​ 
I think the security of the sheepskin - "Butt Velcro" as it is called around here - is helping my position. I don't tense up as much because my butt isn't going anywhere. Not with Butt Velcro on it! Using two hands, but that is OK since I'm using my Billy Allen Baucher Bit!








​ 
Bandit did great today. He led most of the way, as usual. We went to an area we don't normally go, where there is a drop into a wash and a climb out, with loose rock on both sides. I never trusted Mia to keep her footing. Bandit did, though. The little wash has big rocks in the bottom and is only a few feet across. Bandit snorted, I gave him slack and a kiss sound, and he crossed and climbed out. It wasn't anything major. It was laughable to any real trail rider. But it was the trickiest footing I've asked him to handle, and he did great. As we climbed out, I rubbed his neck and told him he was an incredibly brave and bold horse!

Trooper crossed with no trouble. Of course. He's Trooper.

My wife almost chickened out. I told her Cowboy would have no trouble. As I was speaking, little Cowboy accelerated and was across and back up with the others before my wife could tell him no. She told me she could feel him sizing it up as I talked, then HE decided and she just tried to stay out of his way.

The fact that Cowboy could darn near trot across says how minor of a spot it is. But Bandit lacks the experience, and he was in front - so cheers for a Bold & Brave Horse! Bandit the Magnificent, Chiefest of Calamities! (Or was that Smaug's title?) And Trooper was the Steady Eddie he always is, and Cowboy showed my wife she had nothing to fear. Just hang on and stay out of the way, and her 13.0 hand mustang would handle it for her!

She later trotted 100-150 yards on Cowboy, and told me it wasn't bad as long as she let her legs hang there instead of tensing against the stirrups. Amazing what a darn good little horse can teach a person in a few rides! We won't discuss the habits I learned on Mia...

Bandit wanted to spook near the end. We had ridden for about 90 minutes, and were 1/4 mile from home when he saw...a Trash Can! And not just any trash can, but A Trash Can On Its Side! Those, of course, are the worst kind!

But we were only 1/4 mile from the corral, and water, and hay, and being lazy...so in the end, he walked past it. He did the whole "Snake Neck" thing, and gave it The Evil Eye, to let it know HE wasn't fooled by its apparent meekness. But at that point, home sounded better to him than drama, so he reduced the drama down to Snake Neck levels.

Both wife and daughter were laughing and making jokes at the end, so I'd have to say it was an excellent ride!

PS - Looking at the pictures, I'm reminded just how small Bandit really is. He's 15.0 hands, but the vet estimated his weight at 790. At 160 lbs, I look big on him. Hard to think about him being ridden by someone who is probably 230 lbs...and doing it with a twisted front left leg. Along with his growing confidence, the thing I['m proudest of is how much better he is moving now. But he is actually a very small horse.


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## Bondre

That's so cool! All your three horses out together on a family ride. I'm glad your wife is enjoying Cowboy so much. Four times in a week speaks for itself. Heck, it's more than I ride in an average week (sadly).

If nothing else, Bandit has given you this: you say that Mia put your wife off riding, but it sounds as if Bandit's sensible nature is convincing her that she can safely accompany you without having to witness your horse spinning and bolting. And that makes Bandit worth his weight in gold. Plus the fact that you and him seem to be shaking down into a good team.

The desert is beautiful in those photos. Have you had rain to bring on all the flowers?


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## bsms

We've had a little rain, but I'm surprised at how many flowers we're getting without more rain first. But we had a wet winter, so maybe that made up for it. And I agree about Bandit. The combination of Bandit and Cowboy is teaching her that horses and riding doesn't have to be scary. The fact that Bandit is always willing to "Take Point" and risk himself first makes it easier on the other horses, and Cowboy - who is such a pill in an arena - is such a great fellow on the trail. Maybe more important, he is a caretaker horse when ridden by older women. It would be interesting to know what all has happened in his past that has made him so good with older women riders. My guess is that he had one he adored.


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## bsms

From another thread, but all about Bandit and Cowboy and learning to ride:



bsms said:


> Mia was bred for racing. I suspect a lot of horses bred for competitive spirit - and she had it in spades - are also less submissive and more self-reliant than horses bred to do work on a ranch. Her self-will was a big reason her new owner wanted her. They are using her as a broodmare to breed racing horses for the Navajo style endurance races. The "You Cannot Conquer Me" attitude is great for a race horse, not so much for an "Old Guy Learning to Ride" horse...
> 
> Bandit bucked with me today. We just finished a 2 hour trail ride. We went into territory he hasn't seen before. He was OK with it. Then I asked him to take up the trail position, instead of riding point. He did NOT like that. Never has. He also was bred with racing in mind, and it sometimes shows. After a couple hundred yards of being behind, he had enough. Crossing a small wash, we dipped into the wash, and starting to climb back out...he decided to buck.
> 
> Rocks underneath us, cactus on either side, climbing up out of a wash, and HE decides to buck. I put one hand on the horn, to help me if he started spinning (he didn't). The rein hand came up hard and violent, bringing his head with it. He tried bucking but couldn't get much power into it with his head up. I was cussing up a storm. We ended up on the level ground just past the wash, with him not bucking.
> 
> But my cussing spooked Trooper, who doesn't like me and who has always, for the 8 years I've owned him, assumed I'm a monster pretending to be nice. So my youngest told me to shut up and ride, which isn't exactly what your youngest is supposed to say, but...she was right. Hard to knock someone for being right when you are wrong! So Bandit and I did a few quick 180 degree turns while I tried to talk nice to Trooper. Enough to help my daughter calm Trooper. Then Bandit had to ride behind for 1/4 mile because there was no place wide enough to pass. And when we DID take the lead, he spent the next 1/4 mile prancing.
> 
> That is OK. Lots of people pay good money for a horse who will prance, and take lessons on how to get him to prance. So if I get it for free, I'm a lucky guy!
> 
> Then he calmed down, and the rest of the ride was uneventful. Winds picked up and he didn't care. Did the OMG Crouch at a plastic bag blowing in the wind. I didn't care, so a second later he moved on. Score a point for "Confident rider, confident horse".
> 
> But here is my point: After 8 years of riding, that is all OK. I wasn't scared. ****ed, but not scared. Unlike Mia, Bandit will buck when he gets upset. My job is to teach him bucking is one of the few "*Aw HELLLLLLL No!*" rules in our riding. 8 years ago, that would not be OK. And for the 60 year old woman who may go riding with us in a few weeks, it would not be OK. Having the poor judgment to buck in a spot with pee-poor footing & cactus on either side, on a 45 degree slope, was a sign of a poor trail horse. But a horse cannot get good judgment without experience, and the mother of experience is bad judgment - so it was a training opportunity.
> 
> But I would not consider asking my daughter or wife to ride him now. I'm up to it. They are not. Although my wife, on her 5th ride this week (after maybe 4 rides in the previous YEAR), was very proud that she didn't get nervous on Cowboy. It would take a lot to get very nervous on Cowboy, but that is OK. Part of what makes him a very good trail horse is that, in a spot like that, a very green rider COULD feel proud that she kept on her horse. That is why I really like that rolly-polly, 13.0 hands of chubby pony! He was going to stay safe, and keep his rider safe, regardless of what Bandit did!
> 
> But most of the time, when people have told me to just "Be confident", they were telling me to be stupid. When your horse is spinning on a paved road, with her eyes rolling, being confident...well, it might not hurt, but I was always too busy staying on to worry about being confident! And a HORSE like that is no horse for a beginning rider, particularly a beginning rider who is learning riding from the horse.
> 
> There are undoubtedly riders who baby their horses into becoming spook monsters, but there are also just horses that beginning riders should not be on. Mia was one. Bandit is another. While Cowboy is a great beginner's horse. Unless you ride him in an arena, where he was so "naughty" and "rebellious" that they gave him to me for free, with free delivery! But he is a great beginner's TRAIL riding horse!
> 
> And Bandit? We'll get there. If we don't die first. BTW - a couple times today, I had to raise my leg level with his back to keep it from going into cactus. Then I realized that if he hit the cactus passing 2 inches from his side, while I had one leg raised level with his back, things would go bad. So I started working harder at getting him to keep more room from the cactus, regardless of the footing. Part of teaching him to be a good trail horse. It is not something born in him, although the potential is there.


I had to dismount to open a barb wire gate, just about 1/2 mile past the prancing section. So I stayed on the ground and walked him for 5 minutes, getting the kinks out of my legs and trying to unwind. He kept his head by my shoulder the whole time, then put his head next to me when I prepared to mount. It was like he was saying he was sorry, and I rubbed his head and told him I overreacted too. He's not a mean horse. He's going to be a very good horse, I suspect. But he is not a beginner's horse. Nor was Mia. *But I'm not a beginner any more*.


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## bsms

Took this one prior to riding today. Bandit saw...a neighbor! A human, in the wild without a horse! OK, he was walking down his driveway. 

*BUT HE DIDN'T HAVE A HORSE! WHAT HAPPENED TO HIS HORSE?!*​ 









mg:​


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## Bondre

^^^ :rofl: humans are so ****ed unpredictable. Imagine, going out without your best mate. 

Bandit looks to have every bit as MUCH character as Mia - though fortunately not the SAME character. ;-) You can tell he's figuring things out with you:
"This guy wants me to tell him what I'm feeling. Great, will do! Right now I'm p***ed off about seeing Trooper's butt in the way. _Bucks_. Have I made myself understood??"

Sounds like you both understood each others' point of view by the end.


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## egrogan

Yes, Isabel really dislikes seeing people walking while we're riding. I now make a point to say hello to them as soon as we're within hearing distance, and ask them to say something so Isabel knows that it's a person, not a bipedal horse eating monster


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## walkinthewalk

My horses have always over-reacted to people on bicycles. They do much better with walkers, motorcycles, ATV's.

To them, human on a bicycle is right up there with that big mouth alligator coming out of the water beside the dad and daughter who were paddle boating, lollol


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Thanks to all of you I just figured out something I haven't shown Oliver yet; water skiers! Still a little too early in the season, but soon, very soon.....


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## bsms

I can't imagine how mine would react to a water skier, or even enough water in one place for someone to waterski!

Bicyclists are worse than walkers. I also call out a greeting to walkers, so my horses will know they are human. Two days ago, a rather large lady was walking and wearing an incredibly bright yellow top. And Bandit was like, "_A giant yellow flower! And it MOVES!_" When he heard her say hello back, all the tension left...just another weird human!



COWCHICK77 said:


> ...It goes both ways too, taking horses that have never seen a patch of asphalt, never been to town can be challenging as well. Some take to it better than others, sometimes it's not fun but you can get it done.
> 
> Someone who mentioned horses that have been ridden only in an arena/show situation have not learned to handle situations on a trail. I've found it easier to take town horses outside than outside horses to town. If you give that town horse a job like focusing on chasing a cow down a brushy draw you'd be surprised how fast they take to it. I think the key to it is focusing the mind whether it be a cow, navigating rocks and brush rather than aimlessly wandering letting the horse think on its own. That comes later.


http://www.horseforum.com/horse-talk/what-definition-trail-horse-698825/page4/#post8946473

She raises a point I hadn't thought much about, but seems to be true. With my horses, at least, walking in a neighborhood - being a "town horse" - love that phrase! - is mentally and emotionally tougher on them than being in the desert.

Bandit pretty much understands this...at least, if Trooper's rump isn't in his way:








​ 
But this is much harder on him, emotionally:








​ 
Where I see an open, paved road, familiar surroundings and nothing to worry about, he sees...threats. Walking flowers, people whose horses have been eaten, probably by one of the trash cans that lie on their sides and wait to jump unsuspecting riders and horses (and mainly horses)...what looks simple to me is anything but for him.

But might that mean it is a good place to teach him trust, and confidence, and that if I say it is safe, it IS safe? I've always felt bad at the wimpiness of my riding, with so much of it being just riding down a paved neighborhood road. But for a horse, might that be tougher than the desert?

Maybe instead of being ashamed that my horses spend so much time walking on pavement, I should be proud that they usually CAN walk down a paved road. I still have a weak spot for purebred Arabian mares. If it comes to it, maybe someday I could advertise Bandit as a good "Neighborhood Horse" - one who can safely take a green rider on walks around a neighborhood. Although, to be honest...he IS more like Mia than I once knew, and (to piggyback on to the other thread) he is probably a horse who needs a confident and assertive rider in order to walk on a neighborhood road. He seems to me the sort who would, under a green rider, turn nervous again...

And:

"_This guy wants me to tell him what I'm feeling. Great, will do! Right now I'm p***ed off about seeing Trooper's butt in the way. Bucks. Have I made myself understood??_"

*Can you hear me now?
:rofl:
*​


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

This is something that is quite popular around here. The place we bought my daughter's Caspian from routinely does this as a desensitization exercise for the horses they sell (Caspian didn't get to do it he was too young). 






Though quite often I think it ends up more like this and the videos never make it to the web.






PS don't feel bad, Oliver will ride the pavement, even in town, but you can tell he much prefers riding past the monsters like this:

http://arwc.camp7.org/Resources/Pictures/Blocked culvert.jpg

Than he does riding in the neighborhoods (kind of like his rider )


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## bsms

Hmmm...my nearest drive thru is about 10 miles away & on the other side of an Interstate. But the church I go to is very small, and only 5 miles away! Something to work toward. Bandit the Baptist?


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Ha! Bandit the Baptist (baptism by fire?). 

Yeah, ours is about the same distance but we have a nearby town with a couple of gas stations and bars. There is a park on the lake with a cove which is where I hope to find the water skiers.


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## Bondre

I remember as a teenager I used to sometimes ride to the local village and tie my horse outside the village shop while I bought myself a Twix. I would no more think of doing this with Macarena yet than I would think of taking her for a swim in a lake. Like Bandit, she's never seen enough water for someone to waterski on, and doesn't enjoy close encounters with water either - she's a dryland horse. Nor does she like riding through human habitation. All those weird and inexplicable structures that humans live in and around! 

Garbage containers may be Bandit's nemesis, but there are so many human artifacts that could seem threatening to a horse. Macarena loathed all the concrete irrigation structures when I first got her, which are common as muck round here. But seeing as they're always the same, day in, day out, she soon got used to them. The neighbour's houses in our tiny village are more challenging for her; their aspect changes (doors open and close), their sounds change (people put music on or use power tools), even their smell changes (smoke from fireplaces in winter), the list of unpredictability is endless. 

One day we were riding past a house when the neighbour opened an upper story window and threw the contents of a bucket of water out into the street. Macarena jumped about three feet sideways, stared at the offending window and gave a sharp snort of alarm: WTH was THAT??? Cowchick is spot on: urban riding IS emotionally tougher for a horse.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I took Oliver to ride with this woman who owns a touristy type trail business here a couple of weekends ago.

Oliver does not have the fastest natural walk out there, he’d rather trot if time is of the essence…anyway that lady’s horse was moving so slow *I *could walk faster and about a half hour in, Oliver started trying to nudge that horse’s butt right out of the way. Just stuck his face right under the butt cheek and threw his head up. I swear the butt ahead went up at least a foot momentarily. We spent most of the ride with he and I discussing how close was too close and how he had to learn to slow down with the crawling pace. 

He wasn’t too pleased with that kind of riding. Being used to riding walk-trot-canter out on the trails he was in his own personal hell that day, but to his credit didn't pull any real garbage.


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## bsms

I got to discussing Bandit & hackamores and sidepulls on the Over-50 thread. Got a lot of advice on various ones, and tried making a sidepull out of a bridle, a couple of rings and a couple of curb straps, but didn't like how it fit. I also ordered a sidepull noseband made of parachord from eBay.

It arrived the other day, and I tried it out this morning (end of ride picture, and I think he was thinking of getting to the corral and eating hay pellets):








​ 
Spent a few minutes at the start standing by his head, pulling back on the reins. Nothing. So I gave it a little see-saw, and he dropped his nose and I released. The next pull back only took a few seconds before he dropped his nose & I dropped the reins. After a half dozen, all good except the very first, I got on.

And he did fine. We practiced some turns and stops in our little arena, and he was doing fine. So I took him out on the road. He's gotten a little bit herd bound lately. He and Cowboy have finally made up and now sometimes share a bucket of food just because. But we didn't try anything big for today - just a quarter mile or so, then back. 

Unlike when he was in the Zilco Flower, he didn't search around to see what I was doing. Maybe it is because he was ridden a LOT in a bosal, and they only used a bit with him as emergency brakes when racing.

The parachord sidepull is soft, but has a very rough texture. It fits snug. And we did our riding either with my pinkie finger inside the reins for cues, or with one hand and neck reining. Most of our slowing was done by me saying "Easy" - which Bandit knows very well and USUALLY responds to well. He did, every time, today.

Back in the little arena, we did some cantering. No matter which direction we went, he took the wrong lead. That is OK...I don't mind riding a 'counter-canter' and our goal is to canter on trails. We had practiced some walk to canter transitions the previous day, and he was a bit excited to canter. So we did a few of those, and he was fine except for getting the wrong lead. And since I don't cue him for a particular lead, I can't complain!

Back on the pavement...fine. More relaxed than he has been in a bit. Didn't fuss. Of course, wetting him down with fly spray probably helped a lot too! 

But my impression - based on ONE ride - is that he is more comfortable bitless. He has an odd mouth, and it is hard to find a position where the bit neither bangs against his teeth nor pulls his lips back. The one time he thought about cantering instead of trotting, I gave a little wiggle back and forth with my pinkies, and he settled into a trot.

So I called it quits, early, after 30 minutes. He was just doing so well that I wanted to end on a high note. We may try another ride later today, if my youngest can get her lazy rump out of bed on a Saturday. But on the whole...I was very impressed. He would slow or stop with a whispered "easy", and turned just as well bitless as with one. He was, if anything, calmer on pavement bitless today.

I'm a big fan of curb bits. And I do think a bit allows for a lot more finesse. But Bandit and I are not "finesse riders". And for trail riding, how much more finesse is needed if your horse is willing to slow at a soft "easy" and accelerate at a soft "kiss"?

I'm not saying he will always do it. And we only have one short ride in. But he can act up pretty hard in a bit when he gets upset, so a bit may not make much difference. I'll have to wait to see how he acts when he gets upset in a sidepull...but the signs are good. At least, the first ride went much better than I expected!


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## bsms

Yesterday's "ride". From another thread, but it is part of how Bandit & I are learning together:



bsms said:


> Yesterday, I was too sore from the previous day's jogging to want to ride. My wife didn't want to either. So she put a leash on our 2 year old white German Shepherd, I put a lead line on Bandit, and we walked together for 3-4 miles. We did some walking beside a road that has little traffic, but all the traffic there goes at 60-65 mph, including 1 semi. We stopped for about a minute to look at a garage where someone inside was using a table saw to cut metal. We went past a section of desert where both horse and dog were alert about something. It was garbage day, and Bandit has always disliked garbage cans, but he passed by 30 or so without paying any attention.
> 
> My right arm was soon covered with horse boogers, as Bandit blew the boogers out of his brain. "Brain-boogers" are a leading cause of tension in a horse - little known fact! After about 30 minutes, his head dropped and he spent most of the remaining walk feeling relaxed. I actually tried to get him interested in some garbage cans toward the end, and he just didn't care about them - no interest at all.
> 
> Neighborhoods are Bandit's high stress areas. He can handle the desert fine. Its humans and houses and weird human things that make him tense. So I guess we were desensitizing him, or working on trust, or doing 'groundwork', or something. It looked like we were just a husband and wife out for a walk, taking a dog and horse with us. And I'm eccentric enough that my neighbors don't blink an eye at my walking my horse like a dog.
> 
> That doesn't mean I could take Bandit out today, by himself and under saddle, and have him handle it. I think about 25-50% of groundwork carries over to 'alone & under saddle' work...but 25-50% is more than 0%, and the walk was an enjoyable hour regardless. Simple as it was, I consider it good training for both horse and rider. Walking beside a horse is a great way to learn to read their moods, and them walking beside you is a good way for them to learn trust and confidence in humans.
> 
> If you like Parelli, but aren't able to go whole hog into his system, then think about what parts you like and adapt it to what you have the time and skill to do. I think Parelli had some good ideas which he largely ruined by turning it into a "system", instead of a bag of good ideas to reach for when you face a challenge. I personally like the part of Parelli that says a horse does best if it trusts its rider, and that there are things we can do to build trust. I dislike the parts that say I should teach trust in a corral with a carrot stick. So, like with most of the books I've read, I take what parts interest me and adapt them to match my situation.
> ._"...Here, too, we find a practical hint for the treatment of full-grown horses that shy at particular objects and sounds, or object to passing certain spots. Treat them as the English trainer does his young ones, lead them about as described above, and reward them for their docility with a bit of bread, sugar, or something of the sort ; you will thus avoid all conflicts, the danger and evil consequences of which are enhanced a thousandfold if you attempt to mount your horse under such circumstances. Of course, when shyness arises from defective vision, which is often the case, this method will be of no avail." - On Seats and Saddles, by Francis Dwyer, Major of Hussars in the Imperial Austrian Service (1868)_​.
> I think both Francis Dwyer, Major of Hussars in the Imperial Austrian Service, and Pat Parelli would approve of my walk yesterday. More importantly, I think Bandit found it relaxing to walk with a couple of humans and a dog. We need to do it more often...


----------



## bsms

Wish I could claim today's ride proved how well Bandit & I were bonded...but he was a PITA today. Started bitless, and about 2 minutes later I dismounted and switched him to a bit. Didn't make him behave any better, but gave me more options to handle him.

He wanted to canter and was NOT happy with just trotting. Spent 30 minutes feeling like I was riding a coiling snake. Oddly enough for a guy who likes a 'feet forward' position, I did notice during pauses in the fussing that the back of my heel was directly under the saddle string that also marks the center of my hip. We didn't leave the arena. No way I would have trusted him on a paved road.

After 30 minutes of fussing, he settled and we did 10 minutes of calm, light, responsive riding. Then I quit, because we were 'ahead' at that point and I was POOPED! Riding a coiling snake is work!

But I guess if I wanted a calm horse who never fussed, I could buy one. Or ride Trooper, who doesn't like me but who is calm. Or Cowboy, who likes me well enough and who is calm on a trail. Bandit's previous owner told me he could be "feisty" - and I'm a lot smaller and a lot older than Bandit's previous rider. And a friend in his 20s who has ridden his whole life and who is 6'2" once ended up on Bandit's neck when he tried to push Bandit past something. I'm older than both of those guys COMBINED.

So maybe it is just a part of who Bandit is. A friend told me Trooper's sire was the sort of stallion who you sometimes needed to ride 20 miles "_just to get the fresh off_" - and that he could be like that after riding 50+ miles/day for the previous 3-4 days! (He also said the stallion was the best horse he would ever ride in his life) So I'll take some Motrin, say a prayer of thanks for phantomhorse13's suggestion on butt velcro (which she called "sheepskin"), and maybe say a prayer of thanks that a 58 year old guy still gets to ride a horse who sometimes "talks" more than I really want to listen to.

Does Motrin go well with red wine? Maybe I'll just stick to wine...

:winetime:​


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

bsms said:


> Does Motrin go well with red wine?
> :winetime:​


No it eats your liver.


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## gottatrot

Bandit is such a mare, probably why you like him. Makes life more interesting. :wink:


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## phantomhorse13

Was this the first time you have seen the feisty Bandit in this way? Perhaps since you were able to work him through it until he got calm, it won't take as long to get him to chill out next time.

Was he channeling his inner Mia?! :wink:


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## bsms

Bandit gets this way at times. If we had gone out and gone somewhere, he'd have calmed faster. But for going out alone, on pavement, through neighborhood roads to get to the desert...sorry, I want a horse who is feeling more cooperative.

He's more like Mia than I understood. A few weeks ago, my wife had the 3 horses out of their corral. That meant Bandit could get to the horse trailer we use for a hay shed. But that was OK because the doors were shut.

About an hour later, she noticed Bandit was at the rear of the trailer messing around. He managed to push the lever up with his nose, allowing the door to open. He then stuck his head in and started eating. She let him eat for a while, figuring he had earned it. And we now know who our Houdini is, who opens the corral gates at night if we don't chain them shut! Mia used to do it, too!

His previous owner and the 6'2" friend who grew up riding have both experienced Bandit's 'spunk'. But Bandit didn't buck or bolt or really do anything horrible today...just acted like a snake between my legs instead of a horse. Heck, he was "behind the bit" before I removed the bitless bridle! He tried that too in his bit, but found I could make the bit uncomfortable even when he ducked behind, and that he would only get relief by behaving. I could have done the same thing bitless, but might have rubbed the hair off his nose doing it!

He's a good horse, but I understand now why his previous owner said he would never make a beginner's horse. And he'll never be a horse I could honestly sell as a "husband horse" (and I hate that term, but y'all will know what I mean).

But he still calms faster than Mia. When Mia and I had a few days like that, I sometimes ended up wrapping the reins around the horn, tight, then getting off before she could explode. She could go for 2-3 hours like that, and I didn't have the strength to keep pressing her through it. And if there had been another horse, I'd have felt comfortable taking Bandit out and letting him go somewhere. I do think we'll just have to have a few of these until he decides "*This will profit you not*".

I'll add...in a way I'm glad. It was Mia's personality, and the challenge of needing to work with her, that got me hooked on riding. If I wanted calm and reliable, there is Trooper. But Trooper doesn't capture my interest! He's "just a horse" to me.


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## egrogan

@bsms, I know you're a student of historical and military riding, so when I saw this video pop up I thought of you- looks like quite a ride on some brave little Morgans in Vermont:


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## bsms

Great clip! That just looks FUN!

And I like that form of instruction. The instructor is out front, picking paths to increase the challenge for the horses and riders, not standing in the middle of a circle shouting, "Eyes front!"

I'm also jealous. It would be so much easier to convince Bandit not to worry if there were 50 other horses riding with us...


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## gottatrot

I'd be insecure, not knowing what snow feels like when it is safe versus unsafe footing. Snow is super rare around here. I'm guessing these riders know the difference, except at the end where they make a slight miscalculation. If you changed the footing to sand or grass, I'd be all for it.


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## egrogan

@gottatrot- I ride in the snow a bit, but at a wimpy walk  

What you really have to worry about is whether there is ice as a base layer under the snow. We hardly rode outside this winter despite the fact that we only had a few inches of snow on the ground at any given time-the problem was that we had a significant period of thawing and re freezing, so the base layer of footing with frozen mud.

Usually snow as deep as what they're riding in is ok because it's so thick you don't reach that ice. But that part of the clip towards the end where all the horses start wiping out...you can tell they hit a patch of ice under the snow by how their legs all go out from under them sideways. Definitely scary, but having had falls like that while on my own two legs, I can say the snow really does cushion your fall!


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## bsms

Living where I do, riding in deep snow isn't likely to happen! But I remember riding my motorcycle in the dead of winter north of Logan Utah. It was about 15 below. I managed to ride 40 miles without a mishap, into Idaho and back, then hit a patch of ice entering the driveway and went sliding down the street.

Sliding down the road wore a hole in the metal engine cover of the motorcycle. Me? I was dressed like the Michelin Man. I just bounced and rolled and finished without a scratch.

People in the cavalry were also inclined to take chances that exceeded my comfort level:








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## Hoofpic

Glad to have found your thread bsms :;


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## phantomhorse13

So often, clips of military riding (or irish foxhunting) makes me cringe.. and people think endurance riders are nuts.

But I would take that snowy trail over bsms' horrible cactus any day!!


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## knightrider

Ha ha! Your photo of the man letting the horse jump between his legs was part of our act at the Maryland Renaissance Festival. We did something we called "The Jump of Death" where the horses jumped over the man on his hands and knees and then "The Upsidedown Jump of Death" where we jumped through the man's legs. I did not really enjoy doing those jumps because they are dangerous, not so much hurting the man's "jewels" but if the horse miscalculated and knocked the man down, the horse might land on the man's chest. I really repected and cared for my jousting partner and wondered if I could ever get over it if I accidentally killed him. I was secretly glad when we took that out of the show.


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## bsms

bsms said:


> The Army taught riding by having a 5-10 minute talk by the instructor. Then everyone rode out behind the instructor, and he led them where he thought they would be challenged but not overwhelmed...although it they were, they were in the Army so tough!
> 
> Many rules come from competition, which means the artificiality of competitions then create an unnatural way of riding. The shoulder-hip-heel rule is designed for the up/down motion of a collected horse, and it is a good rule - for dressage. Once one gets used to it, it works OK on the trail too...but better than something else?
> 
> I find that once I'm used to something, it becomes "right" for me. I got used to riding with my stirrups long enough that, when sitting stretched out in the saddle in my socks (on a saddle stand), the floor of the stirrup barely touches my heel. That came about because bracing against my stirrups had become my big problem, and lengthening my stirrups until bracing was impossible fixed that problem.
> 
> But I've been trying to shorten them because A) everyone says the stirrups should be shorter, and B) I do believe an inch or so shorter (about 2 holes of adjustment) would make it easier to balance. But I've gotten so used to my current position that I find it hard to change without it feeling "wrong". In fact, I tend to go back to bracing and straining my knees. Part of me thinks I should ride with them shorter until my mind and body gets used to it. Another part of me wonders why I worry about it. My weight is always mostly in my thighs, so I'm not sitting back with my weight on his loins. And lots of folks have ridden without stirrups, and many recommend practicing that way...so why is a very long stirrup "wrong"?
> 
> I believe this painting goes back to 1810. The guy who made it was an experienced rider. The toes are down because (I think) they rode with slick metal stirrups and slick leather soled boots, and toes down kept the stirrups from coming off.
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> Another one:
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> Other than riding deep with a long leg, that is pretty much the forward seat 80 years before Caprilli. And this one was a Rembrandt done in 1655:
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> I hate the way folks back then docked the tails, but...the position he is using could be found on a polo field today. And from the western side, these are a couple of stunt doubles on the old TV show Bonanza, racing their horses [Note: Looking at their horses, I think the second guy is getting a better gallop]:
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> I don't know the answer. I know I get stuck in a rut, but I don't know if doing something different would improve my riding or not. I'd like to take some lessons in jumping, but I have no idea where I would find decent lessons around where I live. That would certainly shake up my riding, but does it matter to the horse? Was VS Littauer right, and the only real test of a position be that it allows you to move "in fluid balance" with your horse (and be able to cue your horse the way you desire)?
> 
> I wish I were trying to figure this out at 20 instead of at 58, though...:icon_rolleyes:


Honesty time: After a month of riding with a shorter stirrup, I dropped them 2 holes today to where they had been before and...felt weird! So after 5 minutes, I shortened them a hole...and it still felt off! So I put them back to where I've had them for the last month...and it felt right. It has become my new "normal"! I think I'll keep them there for another month, then try raising my stirrups another hole.

But how pathetic is it to need a month or two at a new stirrup length just to feel good about raising them a notch?!

All "arena work" today. I've decided I need to "up my game" before taking Bandit out for solo rides. I still have a pretty strong fear inside, and I think the best way to beat that fear is to simply get better at riding!

I'll say this: At the higher stirrup position, *IF* I also move my rump more to the rear, it is easier to stay stable in two point. I started with 7 holes remaining below the Blevins buckles. I've been at 9 holes for most of the last month, and experimented with 10 holes at the end of today's ride. Based on books, I think 11 holes would be about right...maybe 12 if I went for a truer "forward seat" position. That might be a bit odd for where I live, but most everything I do on a horse is a bit odd...:wink:

Also, I may get some ground poles and start riding Bandit over those. Teaching him some tiny jumping might improve his balance. But here is something I"m VERY happy about. I looked hard today, and his chest is wider than it was. This picture was taken a week or so after he arrived:








​
But comparing him to Trooper today, his chest is almost as wide as Trooper's. Of course, Trooper (3/4 Arabian, 1/4 Appy) isn't some thick chested QH. But since Bandit went barefoot, and SLOWLY stopped twisting his front left leg, I think it has freed up his entire shoulder and allowing him to work wider. After all, the shoulder blades of a horse are not attached to the spine, so there is nothing structural about the bones that require a certain width.

We also worked on flexions from the ground.

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/question-flexion%3B-neck-flexions-good-bad-706610/

We worked on Warwick Schiller style flexing. Bandit sucked at it. He was taught 'I can pull your head around' type flexing (Bandit's previous owner on Mia...and yes, I cringe a bit seeing it):








​
And in riding, I've been using polo-style neck reining about 90% of the time. But we tried for light flexing, and he started, near the end, getting a little bit of the idea. That would, I'm sure, make him a better horse for riding out on the trail. He flexes better when I'm sitting on him than when I'm standing on the ground next to him, but it is easier to get a very good release from the ground.

So daily flexions, of this style, is on his training sheet for the next few months. MY training sheet will include trying to get used to a shorter stirrup without bracing and seeing if I can ride in a Littauer-style forward seat using my western saddle:


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## tinyliny

don't cringe too much for this photo:










here's waht I see . 

on the bad side, the rider has takent the rein BACK instead of UP. this can make the rider twist in the saddle and throw the hrose onto his INSIDE hip (where what you want is to put him onto his outside hip). I cannot tell if she/he is giving the horse enough rein on the outside to allow him to come around to his right, so there might be some conflicting rein action.

on the good side . . . she/he seems to be holding that position, waiting, allowing Mia time to think her way through this. mia has her head tilted a bit to the outside, but not so much, all she'd have to do is lift a bit from the base of her neck, and drop her nose a bit, and she would be able to straighten out the tilt AND flex from the poll to the right. 

the rider using more LIFT rahter than PULL can help her achieve this. when mia does, you would see her start to think about rocking back onto her hind. in this photo she would hae to step her left hind out first, before she could step under herself with her inside hind, in preperation for a turn. so, one thing that helps is to have the horse set themselves up better in teh first place, with front feet stopped evenly, and weight already on the rear outside. then, you can get them to soften the body and step under. 

read Cowchick's post on the flexion thread. she has seaid everything I wanted to say but did not know how.


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## bsms

Here is what makes me cringe:

When I wanted to take pictures of a Tom Thumb bit being moved to see how the bit acted in the mouth - namely to see if what Mark Rashid's article says happens actually does - it was very hard to do with Mia. As soon as you would move the rein to the outside a little, or pull back lightly with 2 fingers, she would move her head...and correctly. Two light tugs with the rein held lightly between the thumb and index finger and she'd bring her head around (mainly to see why you felt a second motion was needed).

When she was in the mood to get along, you could give all cues with your pinkie finger on a slack rein. Of course, when she DIDN'T feel like cooperating, it got much harder. But that was her knowing what you were asking, and saying, "_Nope! Don't want to! I'm going to beat Trooper in this race by 100 lengths!_"

But when she hadn't decided to resist with her mind, she was very responsive. What she would not have understood is having her head pulled around that far.

I think those are separate cues to a horse. Mia would do figure 8s while waiting for the other horses to catch up to us, doing 180 after 180 on a 6-8 foot wide trail, all in response to fingers.

If you wanted her to disengage, and move her hind feet, that required a leg cue. That is the way the lady trainer taught her, starting with standing next to her on the ground and pushing into her side with the empty stirrup. If Mia was already wound up, disengaging her made her more upset. I discovered that leading her around on a lead rope. Back her up if you were upset, and she'd pay attention and lick her lips. Turn her around and make her disengage, and she'd get ****ed. For whatever reason, backing her meant, "_You are not going to take charge here, Mia!_" Making her spin and disengage meant, "_Fights on!_" I do not know why. Maybe disengaging made her feel trapped.

And once she learned, in a curb bit, that standing still resulted in the scary thing going away from her, she never bolted again. When she bumped to a stop in three bumps after filling her leg with cactus spines, and the result was my pulling out the cactus spines and continuing the ride, she didn't jump forward again.

She'd spin up her own butthole at times, and sometimes jump SIDEWAYS, but no leaping forward or trying to bolt.

When I did flexing with Bandit this morning, I realized he KNEW how to have his head pulled hard to one side. From his back, he understood a leading rein (which I use a lot) and a neck rein (which I use most of the time). But he did NOT understand softly yielding his head to a direct rein.

Pretty embarrassing. I had assumed he MUST know that, since he HAD been ridden in a bit before and I knew he had been 'flexed' as in the photo of Mia. Bandit's former owner told me he always started every ride with 5-10 minutes of it - just like Clinton Anderson teaches. So yeah...I can pull Bandit hard and he'll put his nose to my toes. But he will not yield SOFTLY to a direct rein. We did 4 session of 3-4 minutes each today, and by the last session he was starting to get the idea.

But while he has become very comfortable with this:








​ 
he seems to have almost no idea of a light direct rein. And while I almost never use it...maybe I should?

I'm not going to try to discuss it on the thread about flexing because I think people would totally miss the point. I obviously rub some folks the wrong way. Sometimes it isn't worth trying to discuss a finer point. But particularly after this morning, I think a soft cue is very different than a harsh cue. And the flexing being done TO Mia strikes me as very harsh for a horse who would turn her head further (and while connected to her neck) in response to a finger.

But she isn't my horse any more, and she needs to learn his approach to riding. In return, she'll be a momma soon and has been able to roam (at times) with 100+ horses on thousands of acres. Also, in fairness to her new owner...I'm sure he'd cringe to see some of what I've done with Bandit. He believed in just 'pushing Bandit past things' and probably thinks my idea of letting Bandit tell me what he thinks is stupid. So it works both ways, and at least Bandit really likes humans! That would not have happened if his former owner had harsh intentions, and I'm sure Mia will judge him more by his intentions than anything he does. At least, she always gave ME the benefit of the doubt!


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## bsms

Just spent a few days visiting a ranch. They have mostly sheep plus some cattle. 3 of the 4 horses used to trail the sheep from the desert thru town and up into the mountains were half-brothers of Trooper. They were all half-Arabian. They like half Arabians because the land where they run the sheep and cattle requiring riding long miles and the owner believes some Arabian blood helps.

They said they try to take the foals out with their mothers into the desert and mountains both. An adult horse used to the desert finds the mountains challenging mentally and requires a good rider until they adapt, but a foal who is exposed to both will do fine. Their horses largely learn not to spook by the work. After all, if you are going thru town with 2000 sheep, the horses can pick up on the calmness of the sheep.

I'd love to take Bandit up there. A 15 mile ride with sheep would help get boogers out of his brain fast, although he is calming nicely. The owner (my old college room mate) said the most nervous his horse got was on a 4th of July weekend, when the mountains filled with campers, ATVs and people blasting boom boxes loud enough to hear from miles away. Even the dog spooked, and tried to hide under the horse, who was not helped any by having the sheep dog trying to hide under him! That matched Bandit. He learns a natural environment very quickly, but find "human stuff" very hard.

One of the sons said they had one horse who bolted a lot. He said he gave up trying to ride the horse, but that his brother was a better rider and could keep the horse from bolting far. But he said you had to ride that horse with constant attention, and he didn't want to be paying attention to the horse when working sheep or cattle. He also said that when the horse bolted, he usually ran for miles.

From the safety side, they did match horses to rider ability. Trooper's sire was a very difficult ride, and only the family rode him - and only the Dad until the stallion became 'calmer'. They just accepted that some horses were more challenging to ride. The owner said in his 30s, he owned a horse who spooked a lot. He was a good ranch horse other than that, so he kept using him...but he never stopped spooking. He wasn't a good horse for riding in some circumstances, and thousands of miles and 15+ years of regular riding didn't train it out of him. He said Mia sounded like one of those horses who would do their best for you, but who just were not capable of staying calm all the time. They are not always "training holes", but part of who the horse is and how it was bred.

I found it interesting that the entire family accepted that animals were different and some animals were good for working cattle, and others good for sheep. Some were demanding rides but did valuable work, while others were valuable because they COULD be ridden safely (or as safe as you get on a horse) by guys with 5 minutes of instruction (ie, horses like Trooper, who was the opposite of his sire). If a horse hated cutting cattle but worked well at the much quieter sheep herding, they didn't blame "training holes". They just plugged him in to where he performed well. And if he didn't fit anywhere well, they got rid of him.

But I'll admit - ranch work would be a great environment for teaching a horse. They estimated that Trooper's sire was ridden 25,000 miles in his life, though, and he was never an easy ride. But he was such a great horse for going 50+ miles a day, and so good with rough cattle, that he was worth it. He also was 14 hands and only 800 lbs...but he'd go 50+ miles/day for weeks on end.

BTW - my youngest daughter spent 8+ hours in the saddle the first day. She didn't volunteer to ride the second!


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## elle1959

Sounds like a wonderful time, and a good learning experience to see working horses in action like that and be around people who work with them. 

My new horse, Charlie, has a background in ranch work, and I wonder if that's why he's so calm. This horse barely spooks at anything, and when he does spook it's just like a quick skip and it's over. He gets a little looky at times but it's usually easy to bring his attention back to work. Well, I should say, it's getting easier. He's still getting used to being asked to do things he hasn't done in a long time. 

Sounds like it would be a great idea to have Bandit ride out with a group like that. Can you bring him there for a visit?


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Sounds like a good experience. 

I always wondered how Oliver would react to cattle. Supposedly his first owners raised them, but I had never tested it out other than going past them with a fence between. Found a lady who had regular cattle, longhorn cattle, pigs, llamas, goats, sheep, chickens….according to her the worst are the Longhorns. For some reason she said even horses used to cattle melt down when they see them. Maybe it is the 8’ horns that do it? 

She suggested when we rode through the pasture with the Longhorns that she would need to pony Oliver and myself. Turns out she didn’t need to. Oliver took one long look at them. Sighed, lowered his head and we walked on right past. Now the big 6’ culverts with the river running through them that made strange noises and disappeared into a black hole, that was something that he wasn’t too sure about so I feel you on the “people stuff” vs the nature stuff. 

BSMS did you get to do any rope work?


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## bsms

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Sounds like a good experience...BSMS did you get to do any rope work?


The suburbanite in me found it very interesting. I did not do any rope work, for two reasons: I can't rope anything at all, and the work didn't require roping. In fact, I spent most of the time on foot.

Some pictures, and narrative below the pictures:








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These are the Manti Mountains. The sheep had been 2 days on the trail moving from the desert to a spot near here. The next two days moved them about halfway up, and then they will spend the summer grazing up to the tops. There are multiple allotments, each about 8,000 acres. The place in the movie "Unbranded" where they lost the horses was in this area of the mountains.








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Starting off for the first day (the third for the herders and sheep).








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Crossing open country prior to the town. The US government tells the rancher when the animals can arrive. The family figures out how to get them there, and the county sheriff blocks off the highway for a few minutes for crossing. The picture above was taken after the highway crossing, but before town.








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In town. My wife is on the far side, trying to keep sheep off of lawns. I'm on the near side, on foot, doing the same. One of the professional herders is on the right, looking back. My youngest is about 1.5 hours into an 8.5 hour ride. She is on the only horse NOT related to Trooper.








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Clearing a path thru the sheep. My daughter is doing her part, but it really works best to clear a path on foot. When working the sheep on the road, the priorities in terms of effectiveness are:

1 - Rider with dog.

2 - Walker with dog.

3 - Walker

4 - Rider

When riding without a dog, the sheep mostly ignore you. If you are clearing a path on foot, the sheep move further away. Also, the sheep get hot (it broke 90 degrees and they had 15 miles to cover). They will try to get shade by going UNDER the vehicle, and some are often run over. On foot, it is easier to spot and signal the driver to stop so you can clear them out. Happily, there were ZERO losses this year.








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The above picture was taken on the second day. My daughter had no interest in riding after her 8.5 hours the previous day, so I started off. However, the sheep had bedded down near the mouth of the canyon. By 6 AM, they had recovered from the previous day and were anxious to move out. The canyon quickly narrowed, and soon it was a bunch of sheep moving up a narrow canyon. On horseback, I was as useful as teats on a boar. You can see one of the herder's horses in front of me. I might as well have been a sack of beans on top of the horse, and that didn't seem fair to her, so I got off shortly after this picture. I may have ridden a whopping 1.5 hours, but I was doing nothing useful on horseback.








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Nearing the end of the second day. The mountain sides in the background are part of the grazing area. This is just a few miles from the allotment. Those mountainsides will need the herder to ride up and down with the sheep. If it gets steep enough, the herder will walk instead of ride.








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My wife rode for the final couple of hours on the second day. Things were well under control. The sheep were grazing, but the herder would spend the remainder of the afternoon pushing them the last distance on to the allotment. 








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One of the dogs in the pickup for the ride home. Two days of working in the heat and on pavement was hard on the dogs. Their feet were sore from all that running on hot pavement. The herders were left with a couple of dogs and a couple of horses each, and told to alternate so both dogs and horses could recover. BTW - I love Border Collies! Mine doesn't ever get any work, though.


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## bsms

From another thread, but related to the vacation:



bsms said:


> ...I wrote earlier: "_I'm about to go on vacation and visit a friend's ranch....I'll ask this week if there have ever been any serious injuries._"
> 
> I asked. Between family and hired herders, they have only had one horse riding accident that required a trip to the doctor, and it didn't require an overnight stay. A herder's horse fell and rolled on him, and his shoulder was hurt (but not broken). One son broke his wrists when young, but that was riding a donkey bareback for fun.
> 
> They don't have fancy gear. No helmets. When I rode with them, I borrowed a 13.5 inch saddle - which was surprisingly comfortable for someone who normally uses a 16 inch saddle. The bridle throat latch was made of bailing twine.
> 
> That doesn't mean one of their herders or family won't get hurt tomorrow. But they have ridden uncounted thousands of miles in mountains and deserts. They ride on mountain slopes that you could not pay me to ride on, or even walk on myself. They prefer half-Arabians for their horses, since endurance is more critical than brute force.
> 
> So just how much risk reduction is required? The regulation would cover ranch hands...so do ranch hands need to wear helmets? Do they require riding for weeks in a round pen or arena to teach them to ride if they do not already know (and sheepherders from South America don't always know)? Just how safe is safe? And who gets to judge?...


People from an English riding background tend to think western riders are nuts for not wearing helmets, but this family has gone 4 generations of riders without helmets and without a significant head injury.

What surprised me was that the sons and the herders were wearing flat soled rubber bottom shoes, since they would also do a lot of walking. I was always taught that was a HUGE no-no. But they think nothing of it. The riding during these two days is pretty benign, but they do spend a lot of time in rough country. They used to trail the sheep thru this area (before losing that about 20 years ago):








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They have a cattle allotment south of this area. But in 3 decades, they have had only one riding accident requiring a trip to the hospital, and that didn't require an overnight stay! And while they grew up riding, their herders mostly learn after arriving, and on the job. I honestly don't know what to think of it.

I did get a kick out of one thing, though. The reins when I rode had a mecate, and I asked him how to ride with that set-up since I never had. His response was, "_Out here, there is no 'correct way'...but if you want to know how I like to do it, I'll show you. But others will do it differently_." So I did it the way he does it, but I got a kick out of that: *"Out here, there is no 'correct way'."*​


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## tinyliny

What an education! Thank you for sharing.


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## Bondre

What a great experience! Fascinating stuff. How many sheep were in that flock? Are they merinos? And how far is the trek up to the mountain grazing? You mention 15 miles but not sure if that was the approximate daily distance the sheep cover. 

Do the herders stay up there with the sheep all summer? 

Lovely horses. I like the grey Arab cross in the town photo. And yes, learning a job like that is great training for a horse. I'm sure Bandit or Macarena or any of our overfed and underworked recreational horses would benefit enormously if they could do a job like that. The first day they might spook at the unfamiliar sights but the second day they'd be too tired to bother. And why fret about rushing home to the barn when home is a different place every night.


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> I found it interesting that the entire family accepted that animals were different and some animals were good for working cattle, and others good for sheep. Some were demanding rides but did valuable work, while others were valuable because they COULD be ridden safely (or as safe as you get on a horse) by guys with 5 minutes of instruction (ie, horses like Trooper, who was the opposite of his sire). If a horse hated cutting cattle but worked well at the much quieter sheep herding, they didn't blame "training holes". They just plugged him in to where he performed well. And if he didn't fit anywhere well, they got rid of him.


Very interesting, great pictures and such educational information. 
I have the same questions as Bondre about how far they go, do the people stay with the sheep, etc.

I like this philosophy a lot. My perspective too is that people judge or brand horses based on what they think a horse should do or how a horse should behave. Also they have values about what makes a "good" horse and they base how useful a horse is on what they use horses for and their own level of riding and skill. 

Isn't it possible that the horse you find useless for one task might be a very useful and valuable animal for someone else who uses horses for a different task? Perhaps rather than putting a horse down, you could find someone with a different skill set and experience level who will enjoy the horse. Sorry, but this is a pet peeve of mine, having known several horses that were put down for their "attitude" and being "untrainable," when the horses were actually good horses plugged into the wrong area of life and with the wrong people. 
I've also known several horses that were not valued in one setting, and later became highly valued "once in a lifetime" horses for their new owners in another setting.


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## egrogan

Thanks for sharing @bsms- amazing adventure. This is the kind of opportunity that you simply can't get where I live. The photos were excellent to live vicariously through you.

I will admit I'm one who just doesn't understand why a person wouldn't want to wear a helmet. The risk of a serious brain injury just doesn't make sense to me- but I suppose that's because I'm one of those (unlucky) people who has to make a living sitting behind a desk and without my brain functioning, I don't have much to offer the working world  Seriously though, a friend of a friend here in town just had a horrific mountain biking accident- he slid after landing a small jump he'd done hundreds of times, flew off the bike and slammed into the ground, severing his spine on a rock and becoming a paraplegic in seconds. The helmet saved massive brain damage though. He's got a long way to go in his recovery and adjustment to his new life, but were I in his situation, I think I'd be glad to have had the helmet on (of course, who can really say how they'd react faced with a challenge like he's facing?). Anyway, I know it's none of my business what people do on their own property/horse, but I can say with confidence that anyone I ride with using my property or my horse wouldn't ride without one.


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## bsms

Bondre said:


> ...How many sheep were in that flock? Are they merinos? And how far is the trek up to the mountain grazing? You mention 15 miles but not sure if that was the approximate daily distance the sheep cover.
> 
> Do the herders stay up there with the sheep all summer?
> 
> Lovely horses. I like the grey Arab cross in the town photo...


This flock had about 2,000 sheep. I think they have another 700-1000 to move up in a couple of weeks, but their lambs are young enough that they will move them by semi. I know I heard what kind of sheep they are, but I didn't recognize the name and have forgotten.

The total trip to the mountains was 55-60 miles. The part that takes them thru town is hard because you need to keep them moving, there is traffic to deal with, and they are on pavement most of the time. They also don't have any place to get water during that 15 mile section. By the end of that day, the lambs were shaking and quivering - but they fully recovered with an evening of grazing and water. By 6 AM the next day, they were ready to move. The final day was only about 10 miles, and I guess sheep will move that far normally during a day's grazing.

The herders will be with them 24/7 for the rest of the summer. The family did their own herding for a long time, and the boys said you needed to be out watching the sheep before sunrise. Otherwise, they would start moving without you! That was something I didn't understand. They said the only way you could get sheep to overgraze was to hold them in with fences or work very hard to keep them in a confined area. They will typically move 10 miles/day, but the herder will be riding twice that. His job is largely to guide them to grazing in the right areas - on the allotment (which is purchased by the rancher from the government & is NOT free), and try to keep them out of any campgrounds.

They also need to keep an eye out for noxious weeds. Some years back, on a different allotment, they lost 600 sheep before realizing there were poisonous weeds scattered in small patches thru the allotment. That wiped out any profit for that year and then some.

The herders will stay with the sheep until they are all bedded down for the night...maybe 9-10PM. A guy who hasn't ridden before will get a few days of extra supervision, but riding 70-150 miles/week is their main training in how to ride. I noticed they pretty much rode like an 1885 cowboy - long leg, almost completely straight, angled forward.

The horses alternate days of being ridden with days of grazing with the sheep, but the herder will be riding every day. And cell phones are now mandatory equipment for the herders (by law), but cell phone coverage only reaches the tops of the ridge lines. So a herder who falls and can't walk or get back on his horse may go days without anyone knowing anything is wrong. Until someone notices sheep are grazing where they shouldn't be and complains, or until someone goes to resupply and check on them (1-2 times/week), there will be no help.

It seems to me this is the REAL root of "western riding". It doesn't try to save the horse's back and energy as much as it tries to keep the rider alive and going. The horse will get to rest tomorrow, but there will be no rest for the man! And the horse needs to move with efficiency in mind. The horses don't get grain or extra feed, just what they can graze on their own. But they may also need to pick their way thru heavy timber or go up a 45 deg slope. Walk slowly, trot fast, and canter only when essential - which explains why Trooper behaves as he does.

For herding, this is perfectly acceptable movement by a horse (although my daughter and I have more bend in the leg that what I saw during herding):








​ 







​
I know the boys showed horses and competed in high school, but it really boils down to this: "_Out here, there is no 'correct way'...but if you want to know how I like to do it, I'll show you. But others will do it differently_."

It isn't a feed lot. It isn't an endurance race. It isn't dressage or jumping. It isn't pleasure riding or trail riding, although it comes closest to the latter. It may not be the best approach to use in California or Arizona, or while branding. But it has its place and has for a long time:











_Zack T. Burkett going down a steep incline on his cow pony. LS Ranch, near Tascosa, Texas_, 1907​ 
Erwin E. Smith Collection Guide | Collection Guide



egrogan said:


> ...I will admit I'm one who just doesn't understand why a person wouldn't want to wear a helmet. The risk of a serious brain injury just doesn't make sense to me...


I'm sure if I wanted to wear a helmet while riding there, no one would laugh or make fun of me. Well, at least not in front of me. But we make decisions based on perceived risk. If 4 generations have ridden in that country without helmets, and no one has ever had a significant head injury, then why would they wear a helmet? Why would they perceive a risk that justifies a helmet?

If you and your family and hired hands rode 500-1,000 miles a year, every year for 10 years, without helmets and no one had injured their head, would you grab a helmet to go ride? It would be like putting on a helmet to drive to the store. Yes, it might save your life in a crash - but would you do it?

Me? I'll probably continue to use a helmet. I'm riding for an hour a shot, not 12, and I don't ride at all when it is very hot or the weather sucks. I'm a recreational rider - AND I don't have the sort of "seat" that comes with riding 100 miles/week! And while they were using flat soled shoes, I'll continue to put on my cowboy boots with a good heel before riding. Heck, I even ride with a sheepskin cover on my saddle! - although I'll admit, that 13.5" saddle rode fine without it. Of course, when my rump is in a 13.5 inch saddle, there is NOT room for anything extra! 

I'll never tell anyone to NOT use a helmet. When I rode with them last week, I did not. If I ride today, I will. But I liked the way they accepted others way of riding. And yes, if my daughter had worn a helmet during her 8+ hour ride in the heat, she would have found it uncomfortable. Even my cowboy hat was pretty hot.

And I'll admit - I think this is a good looking horse! (Different horse than the one I posted earlier, but you can see the relationship)


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## whisperbaby22

Yes, way cool and thanks for sharing. Really enjoyed it.


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## egrogan

bsms said:


> I'm sure if I wanted to wear a helmet while riding there, no one would laugh or make fun of me. Well, at least not in front of me. But we make decisions based on perceived risk. If 4 generations have ridden in that country without helmets, and no one has ever had a significant head injury, then why would they wear a helmet? Why would they perceive a risk that justifies a helmet?


I _promise _I'm not going to hijack your journal to talk about helmets so this the last thing I'll say. But to answer your question, yes, I still would because I would just consider that my family had been lucky despite not taking a simple step to protect themselves. Why? One, for anecdotal reasons, namely, people I have worked with who have TBIs that could have been prevented with helmets (primarily from motorcycle accidents with no helmets), and two, because of the data:
*



Horseback Riding

Click to expand...

*


> While head injuries comprise about 18 percent of all horseback riding injuries, they are the No. 1 reason for hospital admission. A 2007 study by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found that horseback riding resulted in 11.7 percent of all traumatic brain injuries in recreational sports from 2001 to 2005, the highest of any athletic activity. Of the estimated 14,446 horseback-related head injuries treated in 2009, 3,798 were serious enough to require hospitalization, for an estimated 4,958 concussions and 97 skull fractures. Subdural hematomas and brain hemorrhages comprised many of the serious injuries. According to the Equestrian Medical Safety Association, head injuries account for an estimated 60 percent of deaths resulting from equestrian accidents.
> 
> There are factors that may increase the risk of falling, such as a green horse, slippery footing or bareback riding, but it is the height from which the rider falls that most significantly impacts the severity of the injury. According to the Ontario Equestrian Federation, a rider sitting on a horse is elevated eight feet or more above the ground, and a fall from just two feet can cause permanent brain damage. Riders ages 10-14 are most likely to be involved in an accident with a horse.
> 
> While serious head injury can occur while wearing a helmet, the data very clearly shows that the severity of the head injury can be decreased through helmet wear. According to the New England Journal of Medicine, helmets can reduce head and brain injuries by 85 percent. While helmets are required in equestrian sports that involve jumping, including eventing and show jumping, in high-level dressage competitions, the riders generally wear top hats, which provide no protection. Accidents are less common in competitive dressage, but accidents can occur. While most dressage riders do not wear helmets even when practicing, they are allowed both during practice and competition.
> 
> 
> The United States Equestrian Federation strongly encourages all riders while riding anywhere on the competition grounds to wear protective headgear with harness secured which passes or surpasses ASTM (American Society for Testing and Materials)/SEI (Safety Equipment Institute) standards for equestrian use and carries the SEI tag.


But yes, I know this topic gets heated, and there's really no changing anyone's mind on it, nor is it my place to do so. So we can all move on :wink: I am glad you had a great trip and shared it with us!


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## bsms

When it comes to safety, perhaps HOW one rides, and for what purpose, affects the outcome. Jumping with horses creates a much greater risk of head injury - 10 to 40 times greater, depending on the study. So anyone jumping with a horse and wearing a helmet, even if it reduces the risk of head injury in a fall by 85%, would be at greater risk than someone who does not jump and does not wear a helmet. In a study done in the 80s, they looked at where injuries occurred in 3 day eventing. 88% came during jumping. 11% came in ground handling. 1% occurred during dressage.

You wear a helmet because you believe the risk is great enough to justify it. I do so as well, riding for an hour at a time mostly on pavement or in rocky terrain. But someone who has grown up on a ranch, and who has never known anyone with a significant head injury - even when riding tens of thousands of miles - will not perceive the risk the way you do.

How one rides and where and for what purpose affects safety. Western riders base their risk assessment on THEIR riding. If western riders were dropping like flies due to head injuries, they'd all wear helmets. But they are not. In the case of this ranch family, in 30 years of ranching, they have never had any injuries requiring an overnight stay in a hospital. They have only had one injury, to a hired hand, that required treatment by a doctor. One of their former ranch hands died about a year later of heat stroke while working in California.

It is hard to avoid the conclusion that THEIR riding environment - the mix of horse, saddle, goals, training, etc - is already surprisingly safe. When I asked about injuries, I was expecting to hear a list of people with broken arms, dragged, falling down slopes, etc. I assumed there would be a few head injuries to discuss. AND THERE WERE NOT. No significant head injuries in 4 generations of riding.

Just as competitive football (and cheerleading) have more injuries than walking down the street, maybe competitive horse riding is driving the accident statistics. Maybe non-competitive riding is safer than many people realize.

Just a thought. And it is not derailing the thread, since the journal already has a strong element of "How can one ride safely?" in it.


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> But someone who has grown up on a ranch, and who has never known anyone with a significant head injury - even when riding tens of thousands of miles - will not perceive the risk the way you do.
> 
> How one rides and where and for what purpose affects safety. Western riders base their risk assessment on THEIR riding. If western riders were dropping like flies due to head injuries, they'd all wear helmets. But they are not.


I can't blame the ranchers for not seeing a risk of head injury since it has not happened in their sphere. I can't equate Western style riding itself with a lower risk of head injury, but ranch riding at a slower pace with horses that have been raised on the land, that would certainly lower your risk. 

But the head injuries I've had personally and seen others have were not related to the style of riding or tack, since when I was training Amore and getting bucked off I was using a Western saddle, and the most common head injuries I've seen happened when the horse fell, either from slippery footing or just tripping and falling. Such as my friend who had a concussion recently when Amore fell down.

Even the most die-hard people can change their mind if it eventually does happen to them or someone they know. The excellent Dave Rabe was known as a rider who thought helmets unnecessary and was famous for jean shorts and ball cap. His balance was so good he could pick up things from the ground from horseback. By 2014 he had 60,000 lifetime endurance riding miles.








In 2013, he had a freak accident and his horse bucked, throwing him onto his head and giving him a traumatic brain injury.
He is back riding now, but with a new addition to his gear:


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## bsms

People CAN undoubtedly be injured. And I could POSSIBLY save my life by wearing a helmet when driving to the store. Or climbing a ladder. I've had some hard falls on ice, back when I lived where it got cold. But I don't grab a helmet every time I use a ladder or see ice, because the risk doesn't justify the degree of protection.

I'm not trying to talk anyone into not using a helmet. I plan to continue using mine. But is someone loads a pickup full of helmets and goes trying to sell them to ranches, the pickup is likely to wear out before the bed is empty.

A western saddle is probably safer than an English one (at least for a new rider), due to the deeper seat and the option of using the horn to regain lateral balance. Position also may play a role, in the sense that someone riding a western saddle using English rules may be making a mistake - and I write that as someone who tends to ride a western saddle using a forward seat.

I do think style and goals of riding are a factor. The very vertical position of a dressage/WP riders strikes me as mechanically unsound for safety if a horse balks or stumbles - just as a standing bus rider might want to keep one foot forward in case the bus stops. The shorter leg of the forward seat is a necessity for jumping, but certainly raises the center of gravity. But habit patterns may train our body to compensate, too. And an experienced English rider might be safer staying in a jump saddle, if their habit patterns match that tack.

I've been experimenting with a shorter stirrup, one that puts the floor of the stirrup a little above my heel when I'm in socks. I may go back to a more traditional western length - though not to the WP/dressage position, but the traditional 'heel forward' position used by old cowboys (and on a lot of current ranches). That would not be good for an endurance race, but it helps in a stumble and feels good for sitting a trot.

In the end, each rider needs to determine when they are "safe enough". Heck, I rode with a bucking strap for several years on a horse who never tried to buck me in 7 years...and now ride without one on a horse who will sometimes buck a little. I would feel VERY uncomfortable riding with flat soled shoes, regardless of saddle (unless I had some sort of stirrup cover).

But that is why I liked my friend's comment: "_Out here, there is no 'correct way'...but if you want to know how I like to do it, I'll show you. But others will do it differently_." I think we build habit patterns, and then assume they are 'good ones' because they work for us. But there is almost no empirical data on how various styles of riding affect safety. It may be there are so many variables involved that no scientific study is possible.

For example, SueC (before she quit the forum) commented that the men she knew tended to ride with their feet further forward than most of the women she knew. Given that men, on average, have tighter hips that women, might men use that position to get wrapped around the horse better? Could it be that sex, age and physical condition would make one position superior to another - but with the 'right' position varying from person to person?

But based on track record, the ranch I visited is doing OK for safety. They ride their horses extensively themselves before turning one over to a new rider, and matching the horse to the rider and job (sheep vs cattle, trail driving vs cutting, etc) MIGHT be the most important factor in riding safety. Not tack, helmets, stirrups, saddle or position, but putting the right horse with the right rider. 

Food for thought. I'm thinking out loud, so to speak, and reserve the right to change my mind later! :wink:


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## Zexious

Can I just comment on how astounding 60k+ miles is? o,o Talk about life goals.

Helmets is one of those binary things in the horse world, and always will be, because there isn't really a middle ground or an in-between.

I think much of the reason that so many English riders choose to wear a helmet (aside from the increased risk of head injury with jumping) is because wearing a helmet is a requirement, rather than a suggestion, in so many events and at so many levels.
I can think of no western events that require helmet usage?

I can sort of take or leave a helmet. I've ridden with them (as they are required in shows, clinics, and during all lessons I've ever taken, regardless of my age) and I've ridden without them. 
But frankly, they're kind of a fun status symbol when you get one that's coveted ;o; #ThoseGPAsThough


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## elle1959

I frequently forget to wear my helmet when I ride. The English riders at my barn always yell at me for it and the other Western riders don't seem to care. I have nothing against them and try to remember it, especially when I'm doing something new or riding outside the arena on more difficult terrain.


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## gottatrot

Interesting topic about perceived safety. I noticed just now that Dave Rabe, my example of someone who is riding more safely after an accident does not have any stirrup cages on his stirrups yet is riding in sneakers. I guess a head injury did not convince him he is at risk of getting caught in a stirrup. 

I was looking at images of riders that got dragged by their stirrups recently and saw an interesting case of a steeplechase jockey who got dragged. He did not actually catch his foot in the stirrup, but his boot got caught in the _stirrup leather_. Apparently his foot came out of the stirrup, went between the loop of the stirrup leather and then twisted around his leg. That was something I would never have thought of worrying about! 
'I thought this was it': Horrifying moment jockey was knocked out and dragged 200 yards by his horse | Daily Mail Online
Writing about perceived risks of riding got too long, so I posted it on my journal:
http://www.horseforum.com/member-journals/why-i-gotta-trot-645777/page18/


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## knightrider

I really love the give and take of ideas in your journal. I like the way people can state their views and opinions and not get bashed.

My neighbor has been riding all his life. His father was a horse trader. He has probably started 200 colts in his life and he has won 4 saddles. About 10 years ago he was riding his horse at a walk to his job when she suddenly fell. He hit his head on a rock (a ROCK! In FLORIDA! We have no rocks, only sand. It must have been a stray piece of limestone) and was knocked unconscious. For 6 months he had blinding headaches and dizziness and could not work. He was finally diagnosed with traumatic onset Parkinson's disease and has to take medication for it for the rest of his life. Nowdays he wears a helmet whenever he rides. Who would have thought he would have been so seriously injured on a calm horse falling on a rock where there are almost no rocks.


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## bsms

In your thread, you write:

"_In some worlds, I believe the risk of head injury is small. For many people it would take a seriously freak accident to land on their head. If you’re only walking in an arena on an unflappable horse, you may be more likely to be hit by lightning than to land on your head. 

In my world, horses go down with riders. Horses buck, rear, bolt, spook and I myself have gone down with horses at the walk, trot and canter. I have also observed others go down with horses at walk, trot and canter. Horses slip and horses fall. They get tangled up in bushes. 

In my world, horses almost go down but right themselves, and this flings the rider off like a slingshot. If you’ve ever landed across a ditch thinking the dirt was dry but it was slick as snot, the horse’s shoulder can drop to within an inch of the ground, and the horse can sometimes still right themselves but I’ve not ever seen a rider yet that wasn’t hurled onto the ground. In my world, sometimes when riders fall off they hit their heads on rocks or sides of barns or logs._" 

This is where goals meet risk & response to risk. If I were to try racing across the English country side following foxes, I'd DEMAND a helmet. If I was going to jump, I'd DEMAND a helmet. For me, at least, if I were to try barrel racing and spinning as tight and as fast as possible, I'd demand a helmet. If I was starting a colt, I'd demand a helmet. Riding a high strung horse? Helmet, for me!

OTOH, it doesn't bother me in the least to ride helmetless on Cowboy thru the desert. He's small, but the real reason is he is steady, sensible and well balanced. He's too small to buck hard, and too smart to bolt. (And yes, a smart horse like Mia can bolt repeatedly, but Cowboy has the experience and smarts to understand the desert).

If I forgot my helmet with Mia, I didn't dismount and run back for one. She was usually pretty decent. Once she stopped bolting, her antics were spins. Spinning on pavement scares me, but I had become pretty good about staying on in a spin. She never showed any desire to jump anything. But I still used one 99% of the time on her.

But ranch work in Utah strikes me as different. The lowlands are pretty flat and open:








​ 
That doesn't mean there are not tough spots in it, but those are short sections of tough spots. And when crossing a tough spot for work, one tries to be careful. It isn't a race, after all!

The horses are trained for the countryside. They prefer to take them across it all as foals to get them used to it. They may stop breeding their own horses, but horses they buy are ridden by the family until they think the horse is safer. The HORSE is expected to take some responsibility for not falling. That is why I accept my horses slowing sometimes on their own - because I want them to slow if the footing isn't right, or if they are concerned about rocks ahead. In a wash (dry creek bed), they alone know if the sand is deep, or barely covering rocks. Horses in the wild do not fall often. The western approach to riding, as I understand it, uses that. Good western riding, IMHO, requires the horse take initiative and vote on what to do. That is why I find this so abhorrent as a form of western riding (reining):








​ 
That is contrary to good English riding as well, I think, but the sport of reining arguably ignores a crucial factor in good western riding - the horse's mind and initiative. When working very rough cattle out in the desert, Trooper's sire would sometimes spin around and blast a steer with both hind hooves. He wasn't taught a cue for that. He just took it personal when a steer tried to refuse too hard. The stallion was cutting cattle, as much or more than his rider was.

Ranch hands & herders need to ride in all weather. They ride in snow and have become lost in blizzards, and had to depend on their horse to find the camp. They often work into dark, and the rider cannot see any more and it is up to the horse to get them home. And since there is no cell phone coverage in some of that country, a fall means you either crawl out on your own or die. No one is likely to come looking for you for at least 2-3 days, and maybe a week.

The riding on a ranch is not about having fun. It is work, and it can be dangerous work - but not normally from the horse bucking or bolting, although those do happen. The goal of the riding is to stay alive and get the job done.

I found it interesting that the herders and boys often had a riding position almost identical to the picture below:











_Henry Lyman and another cowboy out looking for cattle. LS Ranch, Texas._, 1907​
Erwin E. Smith Collection Guide | Collection Guide

1907 to 2016. When a horse stumbles in that position, inertia drives you deeper and against your stirrups. When visiting ranches, I have rarely, if ever, seen someone's heel under their hip. And I do not often see a lot of fold in the leg. To borrow a picture from Jane Savoie's book, the typical ranch rider is using an unbalanced and improper position (G):








​
But for defensive purposes, G is a good position. That is why it is hard to separate good position from "Good for what?" G just needs to straighten her back to ride like a rancher...

All of this factors into risk and risk reduction. If one wants to reduce risk in riding, it involves far more than what you wear. And BTW, if one rides for 10-12 hours/day in the deserts of Utah or Arizona, they MIGHT be more concerned about sunstroke! Ranch hands have been know to die from sun stroke as well as falls - maybe more so!

I'm certainly not ridiculing anyone who wears a helmet. I do so myself, most of the time. But maybe, just maybe, the ranchers of the Intermountain West know what they are doing, too! Their goals are different, and thus their risks are different, and thus their response to the risk may differ as well. I'll admit I was surprised that they had not had more injuries.



knightrider said:


> ...Who would have thought he would have been so seriously injured on a calm horse falling on a rock where there are almost no rocks.


True - but I can fall in many circumstances, and yet do not wear a helmet everywhere. I grew up playing baseball as a kid, without a batting helmet. I rode my bicycle lots of strange places, without a bike helmet - which would now be illegal for a kid in Arizona, I think. I've been slammed into the ground by a horse 4-5 times while working around them with my feet on the ground (versus once from the back of a horse), yet I don't wear a helmet to clean the corral and handle them.

I've lost my footing and fallen down on rocks while out jogging, but I don't wear a helmet for jogging. I don't wear them climbing a ladder up 20' to do stuff on the house, although I've thought about it a few times.

I will never object to someone wearing a helmet while riding, but I honestly think the experience of the ranch I visited, over the last 30 eyars, indicates there is more than one way to reduce risk to an acceptable level.


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## Zexious

^Uggghhh I'm so jealous of your 'ranch riding' experiences!
I've never really been in a situation (at least not participated in a situation) where horses were used for something 'practical,' and it's really fascinating to me. I'm frankly like a fish out of water in a western saddle, but I would kill for an opportunity like this. 

One thing to consider about the "inherent risk" is the "average" horse and rider.
Your "average" horse is not going to be as bomb proof, nor as handy as the horses you deal with in a ranch situation--horses that are handled daily by highly skilled riders. Too, your average rider is not going to have the skill set of a ranch worker, who deals with horses day in and day out.
On the other hand, the 'average' horse is not a GP Dressage animal. 
I'm not really sure how necessary helmets are with your 'average' horse and rider combo.


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## bsms

Here is another way of looking at it:

I sold my Bates English saddles (with CAIR), but am thinking of buying a Wintec 250 or 500 so I can ride English sometimes. But suppose my daughter wanted to learn English riding. The first thing I'd do is require her to use the saddle below:








​ 
Until she convinced me she could ride out spooks and spins in THAT saddle, I would not let her ride in an English saddle. The Australian saddle feels very English - the one in the picture feels identical to my butt to my Bates Caprilli AP saddle, although less bouncy since it doesn't have CAIR (which I came to hate).

Australian saddles may have saved my life. I'd sometimes finish a ride on Mia with a bruise on my thigh where the poley has slammed into it, twisting my hips around as she spun and thus keeping me on her. There were times when she would get too competitive, or when bolting, where I would brace my thighs against the poleys so I could do a pulley rein stop - would that make it a poley rein stop? - which in my experience were pretty violent stops. And when Mia first tried cantering, she got so heavy on the forehand with me that I thought me might flip, so I braced my thighs and used brute strength to pull her head UP. _NOW! Before you kill us, silly girl!_

Later on, I realized I hadn't hit the poleys in ages. But they may have kept me alive while learning to ride. And if my youngest wanted to try English, she'd get to start Australian. The design is obviously mechanically superior for staying on a horse when the unexpected happens, while retaining a very English feel.

Yet many people would be offended if they read this post. How DARE I suggest an English saddle isn't an acceptable way to start! How DARE I suggest falling off is NOT the way to learn! I've seen a lot of posts on this forum saying a person needs to fall 10, 12, 20, 30 times (pick a number) in order to learn to ride.

If someone says, "But a helmet reduces the risk"...I'd agree. So does an Australian saddle. ANY fall can kill or cripple you, helmet or not. But suppose I argued that Australian saddles ought to be mandatory for dressage, "Just in case". Or suppose I argued that people should not be allowed to learn jumping on a horse until they were adults, because they are not old enough to accept the additional risks. That would result in howls of protest.

I'm all for riders (and parents) who investigate, and then take steps to reduce the risk of riding to a level acceptable to them. But they need to take a holistic approach to risk reduction. Helmets may or may not be a part of one's risk reduction program. They usually are a part of mine. _But they are not such an established part of mine that I would turn down a chance to ride on a ranch because I forgot to bring one with me!_ Yet if someone DID feel that way, I'd honor their decision and not look down on them in any way. I've been scared enough times on a horse that I see no reason to look down on anyone who rides with some extra protection. I think anyone who has been on 1,000 lbs of mindless muscle, wondering if they are going to be alive in 60 seconds, can understand folks taking steps to make them safer!

PS - I once asked my old college room mate about helmets. He said he had never used one, but he thought I should if I felt it would help me. And I did.


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## elle1959

Zexious said:


> Your "average" horse is not going to be as bomb proof, nor as handy as the horses you deal with in a ranch situation--horses that are handled daily by highly skilled riders. Too, your average rider is not going to have the skill set of a ranch worker, who deals with horses day in and day out.


I would agree with this. Ranch horses are worked, hard and often, and ridden by people who also ride hard for hours a day, every day. It's a recipe for competence on the part of the rider and for calm compliance on the part of the horse. A horse that's temperamentally unpredictable will never make it as a ranch horse. 

If I were in that position as a rider, I'd probably not even think about the helmet, not only because my parents and grandparents and ranching peers never wore them, but because it's likely very rare to see a head injury. 

I think in life we all make choices based on our understanding of the risks. When I take Charlie into new situations, I'm more cognizant of safety. When I have him in the arena, I feel confident I can ride out anything he dishes out there, and the sand is thick, so I don't worry. I may or may not remember to wear my helmet there.

Different situations, different risks, different choices.


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## Zexious

^Interesting you feel that way about English saddles. 

I mentioned in my last post that I feel extremely uncomfortable in western saddles. Even doing simple things like trail riding, and certainly doing more advanced things, like the few times I attempted barrels and reining. I have ridden in an English saddle (predominantly an all-purpose or a close contact) since I began riding almost twenty years ago. 

I wonder how much of that security is perceived?
I'd like to see some statistics on the matter.


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## bsms

I think someone who is used to an English saddle is probably safer in one. I personally find them very different in feel. My Australian saddle allows my legs to go DOWN around my horse, while the width of the western one (and all the stuff under the fender) makes it much harder.








​ 
My friend said he had one of his saddles recovered in rough-out leather because it was too slick feeling. I've done the same thing, in essence, by following the advice I got on this forum (and on this thread) and going from slick to plush:








​ 







​ 
For riding in my western saddle, I think the sheepskin is probably a better safety measure than my helmet. 

My last ride on Bandit before going on vacation was in the Australian saddle, and I was surprised that I felt more confident and secure riding it than my western saddle.

Part of it is my western saddle is too big for me. I ought to ride a 15 inch saddle tops, and a slick seat, slick fork 16 inch saddle gives me too much sliding room. But mostly, it is the narrower twist that lets my legs stay closer to my horse that makes me feel more secure. In my western saddle, it takes me 20-30 minutes to stretch out enough to feel 'melted' in the saddle - and melted is a GOOD way to feel! I get there in about 5 minutes Australian.

I can fully understand how an experienced English rider would be more secure in an English saddle than a western one.

BTW - my western saddle is a good one, but if I had to do it all over again, I wouldn't. I'd go with a rough-out 15 inch saddle with association swells.


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## Zexious

I'm sure much of it has to do with the type of instruction you receive in the beginning--both in terms of quality, and in terms of discipline/style. 

Your saddle is gorgeous, by the way.
When my mother was searching for a trainer all those years ago I wanted to start with western, because I thought the tack (saddle in particular) was much more aesthetically pleasing. Sound logic, right? xD


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## Bondre

It's about what you're used to. I learnt in English saddles and when I bought my horses as an adult I bought an English saddle to ride in. I feel comfortable and safe in it. My first sale was a beaten-up old thing that had been good in its day, with the leather in the seat polished super-smooth by all the butts that have sat in it. I'm still using that saddle, and will miss it when I finally buy something better and lay it to rest. It's been through a lot with me in the last three years. 

My DH is not a rider and he hates the thing. He used to accompany me occasionally but he feels very unsafe in an English saddle so we bought a vaquero saddle. They have a large, squareish cantle and are covered in sheepskin so It's easy to stick in there. But I hate them lol. They force your lower leg away from the horse and it's impossible for me to ride 'correctly' according to my precepts. The vaquero saddles have even more stuff between you and the horse than a western saddle, so you can imagine.....

About lower leg position, I too have evolved into the 'incorrect' position of a more forward lower leg. As you say, it's a good, secure position for sitting out spooks or silliness. It makes posting harder as your foot isn't under your centre of gravity, so I find myself leaning forward slightly to compensate. So all in all, I wouldn't bring home any prizes nowadays in a show class as my riding has become more functional than elegant. But I stick on the horse and communicate effectively, which is what is more important to me at this juncture in my life than looking stylish. My leaning forward bugs me a bit, but it seems to be the inevitable consequence of keeping my feet forward, which I do positively prefer.

Photos of me with lower leg and upper body forward in a delicate situation and at faster gaits for added security and ease of anticipating unexpected movements on Macarena's part.


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## gottatrot

> ...There is no 'correct way'...but if you want to know how I like to do it, I'll show you. But others will do it differently.


Now this is a good horse quote for all time. It should be applied to the horse world as a whole. There really is no correct way of riding, or dealing with horses, or for how all horses should be trained. 

This is one thing I find interesting when I ride with horse people from around the country and in different parts of the world. A wide variety of saddles, pads, bridles, bits, and other equipment is used. Something I've observed is that most accomplished riders put their leg farther forward than we are taught is ideal (myself included), and most riders lean forward more when horses go faster than we've been taught is ideal. In fact, I believe the rider in (f) in BSMS' figure would be out of balance with her legs going behind her if the horse took off or refused a jump. Combining the upper body of (f) with the lower body of (g) is what I see working well in the real world. 

I think there is no correct way when it comes to safety measures. That is something you have to decide based on your own skills, the horses you ride, and the environment you ride in. I don't use the same safety equipment on both my horses even. I don't really care if I lose the reins on Amore, at any speed. I'll get them back before something bad happens. If they are too slippery to hold onto, no big deal. With Halla, the right reins and gloves are a critical safety feature. 

Some of us have gone back for the forgotten helmet. The reason is because we've seen Murphy's law applied so many times we've started to almost believe in it. When you've said, "Don't worry, I've never seen this horse kick," and that day she kicks another horse, and when you've said, "I haven't fallen off in over a year," and that day you fall off, then when someone says, "I forgot my helmet, but what's going to happen?" You look at each other and go back for the helmet. 

But refuse a ride because of no helmet? Not happening. I might not let a little kid I'm with ride with no helmet, but I worry far more about risk to others than to myself. And I know the risk is probably greatest with the horses I know versus ones I ride when visiting others.

My friends have a funny safety rule that I've never heard of or thought of: "No riding in slippery pants." That's after both of them fell off on different days due to slick pants.


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## Zexious

@Bondre -- I definitely think there's a difference, too, between 'practical' riding and 'competitive' riding. 
If you're not paying for a judge's opinion, and something works for you, I don't really think there's a wrong way to go about doing things.


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## bsms

The wife & daughter agreed to go out riding with me, provided we started early enough. Bandit is getting much calmer about stuff. There were roofers working on a house nearby (and he HATES humans on a roof!), and he only moved to the far side of the pavement. Out in the desert, he did fine. At one point, someone had dumped some trash ( :angrily_smileys near the path. He did not like it (neither did I, but for a different reason), so we stopped. And waited. About 30-40 seconds. Then he took a step. We waited about 20 seconds, then he passed by without any problem. My wife & I discussed why I did that, and my conclusion that a horse who walks past something on slack reins is much less likely to explode and much more likely to 'agree' X is not scary than one who is pushed past it.

About an hour out, they were walking slow. It is mostly uphill from our place to where we were, and it was starting to warm up, and there was no water, so we turned around a little later. And guess what? They had energy to spare when heading back! Funny how that can work!

We tried this dirt road heading out:








​ 
I thought it would be easier on their feet. None of the horses agreed. I don't know if it was the washboard, or if the ground was just as hard as pavement and had rocks on top. We could actually HEAR the difference. It sounded like we were riding on top of a drum! The horses were not happy. My wife, BTW, decided she didn't want to wear a helmet...after-effect of her ranch riding. I didn't argue, in part because it would have done no good whatsoever and in part because I have a very high opinion of Cowboy's good sense and balance. But I had my helmet on. After nearly 30 years of marriage, I'm careful about picking fights...:shrug:

Coming back, Bandit kind of bucked in the same spot he had before, climbing out of a wash. My wife was behind us this time, and said it was more like he was using his hind feet together to get up the climb, and not bucking. In any case, I decided to ignore it. He started to canter after we were out of the wash, and I said no to that since I don't think my wife is ready for a canter. But Bandit settled quickly. About a half mile later, I took a quick ear shot:








​
If you look just to the left of his left ear, you can see the trail we will soon be on, and the telephone poles next to the paved road is where we will briefly be on pavement again. The closest telephone pole marks the end of state-owned public land. The mountains to the left of him are about 40-50 miles away & 9,000' high. We're at about 4,000' MSL.

My wife is gaining confidence on Cowboy. He may try to nibble his way clear thru the desert, but he has a lot of good sense in his 13 hand body. I'm gaining confidence on Bandit.

I think my theory on trust and confidence is proving out. He is not just desensitized, although that is happening too. He just seems to understand that we will handle things TOGETHER, and that I'll respect his wishes if he respects mine. Passing the people working on the roof coming home, he moved about 3 feet off of centerline and strolled by without even a turned ear. But I didn't once feel he was doing anything without me.

He has changed a lot in the last 12 months. So have I. It is really starting to feel like we are a team working together on a common goal. Of course, that goal is "just trail riding" - but I can easily imagine him becoming as sensible as Cowboy! And that is a pretty good compliment, from me...:wink:...and a sensible horse who can handle both neighborhoods and desert is nothing to sneeze at.

:cheers:​


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Don't worry too much about the "pop" coming out of the wash, that isn't unusual for a horse to do coming up a steep incline. 

Your wife was correct. It really isn't a buck, more like an extra final heft to the top where they don't seem to realize that their rear feet are at the top and they just keep pushing from underneath. 

Be ready for him to do it, ride it out and the more often he is asked to do those kind of climbs, he'll get used to it and the "pop at the top" will disappear.


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## bsms

^^ Thanks. "pop at the top" - I like it! It never occurred to me. We climb out of steeper spots in the area just a few hundred yards from my house all the time without any hops. But that is a wider wash, so his body is level in the wash before it is time to start the climb out. The two places where he did it today are small washes, so he is going down and then up - and starting up the far side before his rear feet are all the way down the near side.

My daughter rides behind me all the time, but she is usually somewhere between Mars and Venus. My wife actually notices what Bandit and I are doing. It is kind of nice to have a second set of eyes, even if she is not an "instructor" or even a good rider. She can still see things and wonder about them.

I find myself increasingly believing that for the average rider, horses respond better to ignoring the 'bad' than getting after them for it. I hate to think of how many times I thought a horse was doing something 'bad' only to find out later that the horse either didn't know what was expected, or had a reason why it could not do what I expected. There have been too many times where I've gotten upset with a horse who was giving me all she/he COULD give, given the horse's training, experience, physical conditioning, mental state, emotions, etc.

I cannot help but wonder how many horses have lost all faith in humans because humans thought they were 'naughty' or 'disrespectful', when they really just had not been set up for success by the rider! The longer I ride, the more I appreciate the wisdom of Tom Robert's rule:

*"This will profit you. This will profit you not."*​


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I was riding out once with a semi-large group of my trainer's students. There was this lady behind me that I knew had been taking lessons for a while. Well, Oliver and I cantered through this gully and as I got out of the wash, her horse minus the rider flew past us and I had to chase it down. 

Her horse had 'popped at the top' and she wasn't ready for it and she landed in the gully. She hadn't been ready for it and she was a decent rider, just hadn't done a lot of trails with big deep hills. 

Good for you staying on. Keep taking him through there at different speeds and he'll get used to it eventually.


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## bsms

My wife & I found a different trail to ride today. It doesn't look like there is one, but go around a corner and it is there. It requires about a mile on pavement first, though.

It had another small wash. I lead Bandit across it going out, and he just walked it. Coming back, I rode, and he did the Bunny-hop thing and kept hopping at the top until I jerked on his mouth and told him to knock it off NOW! Of course, about 5 seconds later, my wife crossed on Cowboy, and sure-footed little Cowboy decided to race up the far side. That was not helpful, although Bandit calmed down OK afterward.

And this is NOT some deep wash...maybe 5' deep and I'm pretty sure the total climb to level ground isn't even 10 feet! Bandit has climbed up steeper and longer pretty regularly without a problem.

My wife speculated that he might feel trapped because the wash is quite narrow at the bottom. She pointed out his previous owner weighed 220+ in his socks (260-ish with saddle and clothes), so rode Bandit at 30% or more of Bandit's 800 lbs. Not a fan of using percentages for affecting a horse, but over 30% is getting up there. Maybe he lost his footing in a narrow wash before and has bad memories? I've taken him up steeper, rocker and taller many times without an issue. It is only on the narrow LITTLE washes that he has a problem.

My wife suggested next time we look to see if we could go off trail and angle down into and out of the wash. However, the vegetation along washes often prevents that.

The good news is that I anticipated a problem, kept my leg and weight forward and long, so his hopping was easy to ride. I just worry about him hopping us into some cactus.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Maybe Bandit has an issue with the feel of the ground going up in that wash, like maybe it isn't quite as stable as he would like? Could be a bad past experience as well.

Even though he will follow another horse in, my daughter's horse doesn't like to go through ruts, like the kind that you can get when you get a lot of water running down a hill over a period of months. Like this

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_qudJsVkP_bs/S99kbmH7c2I/AAAAAAAAA_w/EYMJJGYu-sE/s1600/water+erosion.jpg 

Oliver will walk right along in them without a problem, seems to prefer walking in them over going along the sides. Maybe try walking Bandit along in the bottom of the wash for a while and see if it makes him nervy.


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## bsms

^^^ I plan on trying both my wife's suggestion (see if I can angle him in and out even if the ATV trail goes perpendicular) and yours. There is a perfect spot for trying your suggestion about 600 yards from where I live.

There are some steep climbs he has gone up before where bunny-hopping would likely result in him (and I) sliding downhill into a rocky wash...so I need to find a solution. The hops don't bother me except for the fact that hopping in the wrong spot could kill or injure us both - too much loose rock near the washes!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I didn't think to ask this before but going up the incline is he walking, trotting or loping? 

I'll mention this as well just in case you hadn't heard it before. When going up a hill you lean forward at an angle as if you are a tree growing out of the side of the hill. 

When we were first training Oliver, I took him for a relaxed little ride up to our house from the pasture (our house is on top of a hill). 

As a training oversight on my part, I never told him NOT to run hills. 

We did really good going up, but coming down...whoa Nellie! I was not ready for him to gallop on the narrow trail, down the steep hill, in a forest, with trees a mere 6" from either side of his flank. As soon as that first foot hit the drop off, he took off at a full gallop. I managed to get him stopped but for a moment there, I thought I was going to have my leg broken. Needless to say we spent the next month taking hills up and down, in a controlled manner!

Bandit may never have been taught by his previous owner how to take hills with a rider on his back and stay in control.


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## bsms

Except we DO hills. Not huge ones, but we do steep hills higher than the sides of these little washes, and we do bigger (but less steep) hills all the time. He's careful to walk down. He walks up out of washes all the time. Heck, the paved road going past my house has a pretty good slope to it, and we do that every time we ride. At a walk, unless I ask for a trot.

Exiting the wash nearest me - which is big enough for him to comfortably walk in the bottom - he never bunny hops. He just walks out. To date, this has only happened in LITTLE washes, less than the length of a horse in width. And honestly, all of our horses seem to find the small washes more challenging than bigger hills. Maybe they think they can jump to the top, because they are small? Or do they feel trapped because the washes are only 2 feet across at the bottom? But Mia, Trooper and Cowboy also like to rush the little washes, but walk out the big ones. Bandit walks carefully down a small 45+ degree slope where there is open ground at the top and at the bottom. It is only at these little washes, that look much easier to me, that he bunny hops out of...and he WALKS carefully down into them.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I’m going to throw out a list of possibilities if he were my horse and solutions for your consideration to check off as you see fit:

Pain issue (back, feet, legs) – vet exam
Rider Balance – pay extra attention to helping your horse stay on balance
Saddle slippage/saddle fit – crupper and breast plate, different saddle and/or pad
Training issue – incremental practice on hills at all different gaits, exercising rider control (he doesn’t get to pick his own way for a while), obstacle work
Reasoned fear or mild panic - desensitization
Footing issue – obstacle work and desensitization
Bridle issue – make sure you are giving the horse his head
Claustrophobia - can try behavior modification; results iffy
Attitude/doing it because he can – well timed, fair correction

Instinct - With your military background, you have probably at one time or another had to "clear" a building. At the point of highest danger such as entering a room through a doorway, is your instinct to go slow or to rush it? That is what training is supposed to do, stop you from following through on what is a dangerous instinct. 

Horses are sensitive to attacks from above, such as a big cat pouncing on them from a rock outcrop or tree. In a deep wash, they can't smell, see or hear as well what might be on the top of that ridge. It puts them on edge. The only way I can think of to overcome instinct is to teach them that it is okay through repeated experiences where eventually they learn through experience. 

Anyway that would be my check list to go through, maybe someone else can come up with some other ones.


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## gottatrot

Agree with all the possibilities mentioned regarding Bandit hopping out of the washes.

I think one good possibility is that he tried it once and liked how it worked out so now he has it in his head that it's a good way to do things. 

On one poker ride I was on, Amore got it into her head to jump over every ditch, wash or creek on the ride. The first ditch we came to was deep and boggy. We watched the big horse in front of us sink up to his hocks in mud and struggle slightly to get out and up the other side. Amore thought that was too dangerous, so when I turned her nose to follow through, she leaped the ditch. The other side was slick, her feet slid and shoulder dropped almost to the ground, dumping me into the mud. I got back on, and she thought that had worked out pretty well so began to leap over each of the progressively wider creeks along the way. When we got to a six foot wide one, I felt her gather up (even though I'd reprimanded her for leaping each prior) and so had to stop her, get off and wade through leading her behind.

I think it was good you reprimanded Bandit for hopping, and hopefully he will quickly learn you don't agree with his idea of hopping out of washes. Amore came around to my way of thinking after another ride or two. Hopefully if you can feel Bandit gathering or preparing to hop, you can turn him a little or stop him with the reins before he gets into it.


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## bsms

I'm going to go with this as my starting theory:

When the wash is wide enough, or it is a hill, Bandit can use all his body approaching the slope and FEELS CAPABLE OF HANDLING IT. But when it is a narrow one, where his front end starts to climb before his rear legs are in the wash bed, he hops to get his rear feet together on level ground...and then continues to use them together to get out.

Since these are not steep slopes, I'm going to try turning him into the wash, then backing him and trying to climb out after he is all the way in the wash. Where that doesn't work, I'll see if I can stop him DURING the climb out - again, these are NOT steep, tough slopes. He could safely stop and then start again, it is just hard to stop when riding an 800 lb rabbit. I'll ask my wife to dismount and hold Cowboy out of the way, in case I need to try turning Bandit around and exit the side I entered.

We've also noticed our Australian Shepherd mix dog (100 lbs, built like a tank) uses both hind legs together when he is worried he won't have enough strength to move up something using them individually. But since Bandit has walked up steeper and longer slopes, I don't really think that is the issue. Still, he tends to bunnyhop into a canter (about 10-15% of the time), which may come from having been ridden at a very high weight load and being worried that he needs to use use both legs to power the initial switch. While I don't like using percentages of body weight, I do believe riding at over 30% of body weight - as Bandit was for a long time - is a bad idea. At least for anything except walking on level ground.

I sometimes ride Cowboy at 30%, but I get off when the terrain gets challenging. I can feel him struggling with balance otherwise, which is not fair to him. So could Bandit have picked up some bad habits trying to cope with a heavy rider who did NOT dismount in tight spots?

However, a heat wave has struck, and the highs for the next 3 days are supposed to go over 110 degrees - VERY rare for where we live! So I'm not likely to get anything done for a few days. 

My saddle fit is fine. It doesn't slip or slide when on steeper slopes. My balance is not an issue. He doesn't act sore. The footing is not as tough as others spots, he pretty much always has his head (90% of our riding is on slack reins, and 100% when things get challenging). So for now, I'll go with the narrow nature of the little washes, where he cannot get level before he needs to start going up, as the root problem.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I slept on it and something else came to mind to add to the list.

You mentioned that your wife rode Cowboy fast up right behind you. There are two habits I have found when riding with groups on steep hills, even with people who are fairly experienced trail riders. 

The first is that people tend to stop or slow and wait for other riders at the tops of steeper hills and not providing enough comfort space at the top. 
The second is that the riders behind don’t think to wait for the other horse in front of them to completely clear the obstacle before cuing their horse into it, they tend to continue to follow the horse in front at nearly the same distance as they did on the flats.

Bandit’s behavior could very possibly be a message to the other horses, “Don’t run up my butt!”

This might also explain why he is suddenly doing this more frequently since you began riding with your wife, who may just be letting Cowboy do his own thing rather than controlling his decisions there. 

In Bandit’s experience, Cowboy is going to come flying up behind him before he feels secure with all four feet on solid ground and has cleared the lip. He feels the need to give Cowboy a preemptive warning in the form of a butt pop, which can be a precursor to a kick if the other horse doesn’t get the memo.

In the narrower washes, he may feel this is more of an issue.

Solution: 
1)	When you get to the top don’t slow down or wait (or watch to make sure that they made it up okay) for other riders until you are well clear of the edge; continue on at least three horse lengths before catching your breath. If they don’t make it up, you will know soon enough. 
2)	Ask your wife/fellow riders to wait until you have cleared the edge before cuing Cowboy up the incline.

***This can sometimes be difficult as the horse who is left behind will get nervous. If your wife is uncomfortable with that, then have her go first, completely clearing the lip and beyond, then you go with Bandit.

#1 will also solve the issue if it is a “because he can” behavior in that you will be getting his focus back on you with the cue to continue to move forward past the lip.

Timing: cue him to continue to move forward just as his front feet hit the top of the ridge; before he has the chance to “curl” for the final push.

Just something else to consider.


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## bsms

^^ Interesting thoughts. I'd "like" more than once, if possible! They make sense to me, and I'll try doing that.

I just finished a 45 minute ride with him. It is now 94 degrees and climbing fast, so we went solo. By myself, I can have him saddled and ready to go in 5 minutes. When all three of us go out...well, lets just say we are NOT ready in 5 minutes. Or 15...:icon_rolleyes:

He got a bit herd-bound over the spring, but we went 45 minutes today and he acted the same as he would with another horse. I still have confidence issues solo...Mia and I never got to a point where she could go out solo and NOT have drama. But he barely flicked an ear going past houses, and stayed calm as can be in the desert.

The only time Bandit did anything, it was something he might have done anyways. We reached my planned turnaround point and he realized there were horses ahead. They live there, but he sometimes seems surprised. The people like roping and sometimes have cows there too, so that may be the difference.

Anyways, he put on the brakes and started backing up. But he neck reins better than he direct reins, so I asked for a 180 with one hand and he did. We then went 2 steps straight, then I asked for another 180. We stopped & waited. After 30 seconds, he was ready to try forward. I halted him and we waited another 30 seconds, then I asked and we went forward. Since we were already at the turn point, we only went about 20 yards forward...just enough to establish the principle. Then we turned for home.

Along the way, I saw a spot where it is level above and below, but the slope was the same height and steepness as coming out of the wash yesterday. So I took him there...and he carefully walked down. We turned around, and he carefully walked up. No trace of a bunny hop.

So maybe it is the narrowness of the wash, where he is starting up with his front feet while his hind feet still need to go down. Or maybe he is anticipating Cowboy coming up too soon behind him. I'll talk it over with my wife the next time we are out where there are narrow washes to cross. But I'm pretty sure it is not slope, balance, saddle or lack of strength. He walked up letter-perfect this morning. Zero tension or concern.

Now...time to hibernate as the day turns miserably hot! :x


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

bsms said:


> Now...time to hibernate as the day turns miserably hot! :x


I feel your pain. Currently it is 87 degrees with a "feels like" of 97.5 Nasty humid! High today is supposed to be 98 so a "feels like" in the 100's + teens. Ugh!


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## tinyliny

just a short chime in here: something like 60 degrees and raining here, and has been gray and wet for two weeks. odd, after temps in the 90's in April!


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## Bondre

I think it must be quite a strain on a horse's back crossing a narrow wash like you describe. When he is in the bottom, he has his front feet starting to climb before his hind feet have finished descending, right? So he is straddling the narrow bed with his feet slightly above the bottom on either side. If I was a four-legged creature in that situation I think I might well give a good thrust with my hind legs to push off, and then maybe continue to propel myself upwards with them, which would result in the bunny-hopping action. 

Could you recall your daughter from the realms of Jupiter and station her in the bottom of a narrow wash to catch Bandit on video? 

There's an old gypsum scrape where I ride (I say scrape because quarry is far too grandiose a word for a small and irregular hole in a very small hillside) which has a largeish mound of earth (presumably gypsum slag) with a45 degree slope up to a flat top. Great for jumping with the dirt bikes! I've gone up and down it several times with Macarena, (but it seemed to stress her out) and when I went up at the canter she would often do a jump in the air at the top, which I found rather disconcerting. Thinking about this again, I wonder if she did this because she was still climbing with her front legs and suddenly the slope ended so she always ended up jumping when she reached the flat ground at the top.


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## gottatrot

Just have to say, I am interested in all the terms being used for the changes in terrain. "Quarry, scrape, wash, slag, hole, mound, bank, ditch..." If anyone plans to write a novel, come to this thread to find your appropriate descriptor for the landscape. It occurs to me that riders may use more terms for terrain than most other people.


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## bsms

95 degrees and climbing as of 8:55 AM. I may go jogging today, but I just don't feel right about asking the horses to go. If nothing else, we have to go 1/4 mile on pavement to get to dirt, and the pavement is getting hot. This is about 10-15 degrees hotter than normal, but it puts a crimp on taking Bandit out.

The more I think about it, the more I think it is the narrowness of the wash that gives Bandit fits. However, it could also be worrying about Cowboy. Bandit is 3 of 3 in the corral, but takes on the role of #1 as soon as we head out. He is smarter than the other two, and they know it. For his part, Bandit barely tolerates the others. Cowboy is actually fairly smart, but as far as Bandit is concerned:
.Cowboy: You're that smart?

Bandit: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Trooper, Mia, bsms?

Cowboy: Yes.

Bandit: Morons.​


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Having a really smart horse can sometimes be a PITA, but I'll take it any day over a relatively dull one!


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## phantomhorse13

well you do like an ayrab! :wink:


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## bsms

*Farrier visit*

Talked to our farrier today about the bunny-hopping. He said in his experience, some horses just did it in a narrow wash. He wasn't sure if they felt claustrophobic or if it was a vision thing. Said he once had a 17 hand horse who hated small washes.

Also said he once had a mule who not only hated small washes, but also jumped shadows. I asked him what he meant, and he said that if the mule came up on a long, straight shadow crossing the path, he'd jump it. Every time. He never found a way to teach the mule that it was OK. So when he got close to a shadow like that on the mule, he'd lean forward and they'd jump the deadly shadow together.

I told him that I was trying to teach Bandit about coming to a mutually acceptable compromise. He said that was something he loved about mules. "_With a mule_", he said, "_you reach a mutually acceptable compromise, or he kills you!_" He thought a good mule was a great animal. He also said he didn't understand why people would buy a horse with a given personality, and then spend years trying to change it.

All 3 horses, he said, had excellent feet. He brought his son, and Cowboy spent most of the time licking his son's arm - something I hadn't seen Cowboy do before. The son didn't mind. He thought it was funny. Meanwhile, Bandit kept a close eye on everything. At one point, the farrier looked up and told Bandit, "_Come on, boy, give me some room_"...and Bandit backed a few feet away. Kept looking, but not QUITE so closely!

He had 10 horses to do at the start of the day. My 3 were first, and he was done with all 3 in 25 minutes. He expected the rest of his day to be a lot more work. His advice on Bandit was not to sweat it. '_He's half-Arabian and half-Mustang. He's going to have opinions, and they won't always agree with yours. But if you can work out a compromise you can both agree on, what of it? That isn't a hole. Enjoy your horse!_' (paraphrase)


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## bsms

Saw this article on the Internet. I loved this section:

"Horses benefit from repetition when it comes to training, but Koenig said that just doesn’t hold true for mules.

“A mule isn’t going to go around in circles around an arena for no good reason,” she said. 

Koenig also noted the difference between horse and mule shows.

“At a horse show, if a horse pulls back at the trailer, everybody runs and says the horse is terrible for pulling back,” said Koenig. “Go to a mule show, and if some guy is riding past you on an obviously partially out of control mule, everyone just says:*"There goes Earl!”*

Added Koenig, “You can’t have an ego with your mules.”

Unraveling the mystery of the mule | Hayley Thomas

Maybe that should be my theme:

*"There goes Earl!"*

:rofl:​


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> “A mule isn’t going to go around in circles around an arena for no good reason,”


I guess I didn't realize it, but I've been riding mules! 
My friend and I were talking about this today, she thought it was funny Halla will only trot on the narrow, bumpy trails where it isn't conducive to cantering. She will absolutely not settle into a long trot on the beach. I told my friend that Halla sees no reason why she should have to trot on the beach when it is so much nicer to canter. On the trail, she can understand and agree with my reasoning when I ask her to trot. 

*"There goes Earl!”*
I think Earl chased me and Amore once at a poker ride when he ran away with his packs full of clanking glass bottles and decided Amore was going to save him. He pursued us around in small circles for awhile until I was able to finally hop off Amore and get them both stopped. I don't think Earl was going to stop until Amore did. 



> He also said he didn't understand why people would buy a horse with a given personality, and then spend years trying to change it.


People seem to confuse training with personality. They think a person can train the personality out of a horse. "Why is she so alert/why so much energy/why doesn't she want to...?" Etc.
I think traits like being a prize shadow jumper makes an equine much more interesting.
Halla used to cringe and flinch when light filtered down onto us from between leaves in the forest. She seemed to see the light as a solid object coming down on top of us.


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## Bondre

gottatrot said:


> People seem to confuse training with personality. They think a person can train the personality out of a horse. "Why is she so alert/why so much energy/why doesn't she want to...?" Etc.
> I think traits like being a prize shadow jumper makes an equine much more interesting.


This is such a good point! It's a singularly futile endeavour trying to change any sentient beings' character - be it a human, a horse or a hamster. And yet many people seem to think that when a horse manifests his character, he is being disrespectful/showing holes in training/ etc etc and that a good lunging/round pen/groundwork session will set it all to rights. Learning to comprehend your horse is one of the most wonderful things about having horses, and working on improving that relationship within the constraints offered by her character and yours. Just as you're going to have a hard time making a dressage horse out of a free and independently-spirited horse, you're going to have a hard time making a dressage rider out of a person that loves speed and open spaces. 



gottatrot said:


> Halla used to cringe and flinch when light filtered down onto us from between leaves in the forest. She seemed to see the light as a solid object coming down on top of us.


Macarena mistrusts manmade patterns on the ground. She's not bothered about shadows, but she dislikes the chalk marks that the local mountain bikers paint on the trails for their annual route. And recently I rode her in some uncultivated fields that the owner is cleaning up and preparing for planting. A stone grinder had gone over the stony areas, leaving an interesting pattern of finely tilled 'earth' strips (actually ground stone) separated by the tyre tracks of the grinder. There were several concentric strips that went all round the edge of the field that was reminiscent of a race track, so I put her in one and suggested a trot, thinking it would be great for a fast canter, but she was quite unhappy about going at speed on that surface. She preferred the untilled earth, bumpy and irregular and covered in dry weeds.


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## bsms

Mia had a baby. Filly. Told she and the foal are doing well. Our only picture:


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## Hoofpic

Im lovingac your journal bsms, great read


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## Zexious

What an adorable filly!
Many congratulations to her new owner!


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## egrogan

That's amazing! So glad you got an update and she foaled without incident. Cute baby.


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## Hoofpic

that baby is so cute.


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## bsms

Thanks, all! I'm obviously very biased...but I'm also glad she has the chance to be a mother. She had excellent bloodlines, and was in many ways a very good horse...maybe too much for me, but she tried.

But I'm also glad I've got Bandit. He is like a "Mini-Mia". He has many of the same personality traits, only not so extreme. So I still need to learn, but he isn't 'way too much horse' for me. His behavior around the farrier yesterday was identical to hers. When I was cleaning the corral, he pulled one of her old tricks and nosed over my wheelbarrow - then sniffed the poop, and turned and looked at me, clearly puzzled that his human collects it. You can almost hear him echoing her: "Bob, it's just poop!"

But I snuck in a very short ride (15 minutes or so) just at sunset today, with the wind blowing. He actually acted a bit concerned at all the shadows in our little arena - we rarely ride at sunset. But he ignored the wind and ignored Trooper literally kicking up a fuss every time we disappeared from view. He bucked pretty hard the other day, but it got him nowhere and there was no repeat this evening.

I still miss Mia sometimes, but Bandit is a much better match for me as a rider. I'm getting to try things on him I didn't dare to try with Mia. And Mia gets to pass on her bloodlines...and maybe her competitive nature, which will be good for racing horses.


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## bsms

I'm about halfway thru "The Fundamentals of Riding" by Lucy Rees, but it has been disappointing so far. It has too many errors on riding mechanics that could be caught simply by trying. 

For example, she says that putting weight into your heels instead of your stirrups, will push your knee into the horse and stabilize you. "_She does not try to grip with her knees, which would push her upwards out of the saddle. But her knees are firm on the saddle because her weight is on her heel, not on the stirrup. Dropping her heel changes the shape of the muscles in the thigh, pulling the knee in. The more she puts weight on her heel, the firmer her knee._" - page 16

That is incorrect, and can be easily discovered by any one who tries putting weight into the stirrup (where it MUST go) via a relaxed and flexible heel WHILE also keeping the knee off the horse. The firmer the knee is against the horse, the LESS weight that can flow into the heel & stirrup, since the pressure of the knee interrupts it.

"_He does not try to spread his legs wide, like the classical rider, but keeps them in; and his weight is on his heels, not the stirrups. Both these actions increase the firm hold of his knees which...tighten still more. Thus his 'grip' is not so much a conscious action as the mechanical effect of having his stirrups short_." - page 18, same error. 

Some are differences of opinion. "_...most beginners tend to lean forward without realizing it. This is partly a natural reaction to fear, and partly because your body is not very good at telling where it is unless your feet are on the ground....Another common mistake is to have the leg too far forward_." - page 23

I'd suggest our bodies ARE good at feeling position, and since many beginners NEED to have their feet forward (being too tight in the hip to bring them under), they automatically try to balance above their stirrups (feet). It also often unites them with their horse's center of gravity, which is usually farther forward than a classical seat. That natural tendency is then taught out of them by instructors, not by the horse.

"_The pictures are of a sitting trot. The rider absorbs all the horse's movement in the small of her back...the curve of her back springs in and out with each bounce._" - Page 30 

Maybe it is just me, but I think Littauer was more accurate talking about "hinges", with the waist being one. I don't think it is possible to absorb any significant up/down motion by increasing and decreasing the curve of the lower back. Instead, we lean slightly forward and aft, so the HINGE that exists at our hips will deflect the motion.

"_For the beginner, then, the easiest and most certain way to stop is to lean back, pushing your bottom firmly down into the saddle, and stop your hands moving...You do not need to pull. It is your WEIGHT that stops him more than your hand. A horse can, if he wants, set his jaw against the bit and still charge off with you. But he cannot charge off if you are tipping his see-saw backwards, no matter how rude a horse he is_." - page 74

That was written by someone who never rode a horse like Mia, or at least never tried stopping an excited horse using their weight alone! No mortal man can shift enough of his weight to the rear to make Mia or Bandit stop. Heck, when I was 185 lbs, I rode Cowboy just after he arrived here. I wish I could find the picture of him charging around at full speed, utterly unaffected by the backward weight of my 185 lbs on his 650 lb body! He did about 10 laps of our little arena before he slowed even a little. Honesty, it sometimes IS the pain of the bit that stops a horse, which is why a pulley rein stop can sometimes shock a bolting horse into stopping.

I can't find it right now, but she also says that turning the toes out means you must grip with your lower leg. That would be a shock to most western riders, many of whom ride with minimal lower leg contact AND toes turned out. It also comes as a surprise to me, because I never have and never will ride with my toes straight ahead, any more than I jog or stand in the shower with my toes straight ahead - yet I keep my lower leg NEAR the horse, but have to consciously decide to squeeze for contact.








Yet perhaps the scary thing is that it is, on the whole, the best book I've seen on the mechanics of riding. *It is frustrating that so many books on how to ride and how our riding affects the horse seem to be based on hearsay rather than experimenting!
*---------------------------------------------
On a separate note, I was extremely happy with Bandit today. My wife and I went riding, and we decided to try exiting the wash where there was no trail. It was far steeper than anything I had tried Bandit on. I knew I could trust Cowboy with my wife - he'd go or not based on his own assessment, and do it his own way.

So I pointed Bandit at the climb, stopped him, and gave him about 30 seconds to assess. When I thought he was ready, I gave a little squeeze and he started up. And HE was doing it. I focused on staying out of his way. I did suggest a slight turn left, then right partway out, and he accepted my suggestion. But if he had bunny-hopped, we both would have had a very nasty fall, and I'd likely be in the hospital. At one point, I was standing in the stirrups and his neck was just in front of me, all 4 legs moving independently of each other as he scrambled, much as I would if using all 4 appendages to scramble up a steep slope. There was ZERO attempt at "body control"!

He pushed on at a walk after we went over the lip since the ground continued to rise. When I could afford to look back, Cowboy and my wife emerged at a different spot, so I assume Cowboy decided there was a better path out. My wife was smiling, and shouted, "_We did it! Cowboy was giving everything he had, and I tried to stay out of his way, and he got us up!_" For a fat little pony, Cowboy is an outstanding horse!

But I was happy with both. Mia would NEVER have agreed to try it. Bandit assessed the situation, decided we could make it, and then moved out with just a LIGHT squeeze, and gave it his best effort. That, to me, is the difference between a PARTNER and a SERVANT. Same with Cowboy, whose judgement was critical since he knew, full well, his rider didn't know how to get there.

It wasn't some incredibly difficult spot, but it was enough to challenge both horses - and they both willingly rose to the challenge. Not out of humble obedience, which neither horse possesses, but out of willing desire and the pleasure of being a TEAM with their rider! It also justifies the time I've spent trying to convince Bandit that we will work together or not at all, and trying to give him increasing challenges. Had he told me he wasn't ready, I'd have scratched his withers and turned him around. I think one of the reasons he went up with such determination is that I was counting on him, yet not forcing him. It was my suggestion, but HIS choice to go. A valid choice, no deception: I'd have turned around without complaint if he wasn't willing.
.
_'The horse is the sole master of his forces; even with all of our vigor, by himself, the rider is powerless to increase the horse's forces. Therefor, it is for the horse to employ his forces in his own way, for himself to determine the manner of that employment so as to best fulfill the demands of his riders. If the rider tries to do it all, the horse may permit him to do so, but the horse merely drifts, and limits his efforts to those which the rider demands. On the contrary, if the horse knows that he must rely on himself, he uses himself completely, with all of his energy.'" - 5 May 1922_

_ -- Horse Training Outdoors and High School, Etienne Beudant_​


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## gottatrot

Agree with your assessment of the recommendations in that book.
What I believe is the most important part of "toe angle" is that your thigh and foot angles match. Many riders twist so the leg is not mechanically able to use the joints well. I think this is poor body mechanics and will lead to pain and body issues as well as preventing the rider from having the weight go down the leg correctly.

I look down once in awhile to make sure my toe lines up under my knee. I believe a rider can have their toe facing many different directions and still be correct, some riders with thin, flat thighs may have their toe facing nearly forward while some with oddly shaped large thighs might have their toes pointing straight out. If that is where the hip angle puts the thigh when seated in the saddle, it can be correct. I find my angles change on different horses with different builds.
CORRECT:








Two versions of INCORRECT:


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## Zexious

It sounds like the book you're reading at present is describing what's preferable for most english disciplines. 

Preferable and practical for the average rider are not always the same thing.


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## tinyliny

you might enjoy Mary Wanlass books. or, Heather Moffet. but, both are based on dressage riding.


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## Bondre

I have dipped into that book but it didn't really engage me. I suppose one positive thing about her approach of breaking down the mechanics of riding is that it makes you think about how you do it, even if you don't agree with her. I'm with you on the sitting trot quote - my back doesn't seem to absorb the bounce at all - maybe that's why I've always been bad at sitting the trot on your average bouncy horse. And I don't understand either how you can stop a horse infallibly with your seat. It's hard to separate the effect of the seat and the reins for stopping a horse because I use both, but I think judicious use of the reins gives better results if your horse is trying to speed off. Stopping the horse off your seat alone is fine with a relaxed horse but I at least need to use the reins too if there's any adrenalin in the equation. 

Her book on horse behaviour is FAR superior in my opinion. 

Glad to hear about your successful experiment in the wash. I put Macarena up a steep climb once, just to see how she did, and she went up boldly for me but she scrabbled a bit nearing the top. I had a horrible feeling that I had overfaced her while she scrabbled but she got her hind leg back under her and up we went over the lip. I wouldn't do it again unless there was a pressing need to do so. If she had stalled before reaching the top we would have been in a nasty mess, and one or both of us would have got hurt. She was slimmer then too - I suspect nowadays those extra kilos might turn the balance against us lol.


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## bsms

I posted this on gottatrot's journal (good discussion on dominance, training, genetics,etc going on there (http://www.horseforum.com/member-journals/why-i-gotta-trot-645777/page14/#post9264033), but this is about how I'm doing with Bandit and what we have been working on, so I'll add it here:



bsms said:


> The first time I saw this was about 3-4 months after we got Mia. We already owned a small Arabian mare named Lilly, and Lilly and Mia had been corral mates for two years with a previous owner. Then they were donated to a charity, someone bought Mia and we bought Lilly. A few months later, Mia was returned, underweight and battered from constant fighting with the two large geldings she had been put in with, but would not submit to. I liked her and bought her, and began a 7 year journey with her.
> 
> Anyways, to make a short story longer...Mia became upset with a 2 year old QH filly we owned at the time. She was basically round penning the filly - for two hours. Then sensible little Lilly decided she had seen enough. She stepped in between the two of them, and stared at Mia. Mia was #1 in the pecking order and a very dominant mare. The QH filly was actually #2. Lilly was #3. Lilly just stood there, making it clear Mia would need to go over the top of her to get to the QH filly. After about 20 seconds, Mia snorted and back away. She then studiously ignored the other two horses.
> 
> This did NOT result in Mia becoming submissive, nor did Lilly move up the pecking order. But Mia respected Lilly, realized Lilly was right, and backed down. According to a lot of folks who write about horses, that meant Mia "lost". I have no idea how many times I've heard that I should never 'lose' to my horse. But Mia didn't lose anything. She was still number 1, and she was so in part because she WOULD back down when in the wrong. There is a difference between a bully horse and a horse who deserves respect - and Mia earned the respect of the other horses.
> 
> Since then, I've watched her back down a bunch of times. She was tough, but she was always FAIR.
> 
> Now, Bandit is #3 of 3. But he is the smartest of the 3, and the other two know it. He may be the last to eat, but he is the one the other two go to when worried. On the trail, he takes the lead and the others cue off of him (and me). He is the most cautious of the three, but once he makes a decision, he is the boldest of the three.
> 
> I was told on another forum a little while back that horse society is based on antagonism and trying to raise your status over the others, and that if I didn't know that, it proved I didn't know much about horses. I think the writer genuinely had a lot of experience...but maybe not with horses in a long-term, get-along social structure. But how sad is it that some people can spend a life around horses and not see how fairness, cooperation and teamwork play into their nature!
> 
> I know I've shared this old quote before, but the more I'm around horses, the more I wish instructors made new students memorize this! The more I apply it to my horses, the better they work with me:
> 
> "_..There is another thing to be considered with regard to the horse's character - *it loves to exercise its powers, and it possesses a great spirit of emulation; it likes variety of scene and amusement* ; and under a rider that understands how to indulge it in all this *without overtaxing its powers*, will work willingly to the last gasp,which is what entitles it to the name of a noble and generous animal...
> 
> ..Horses don't like to be ennuye, and will rather stick at home than go out to be bored ; *they like amusement, variety, and society* : give them their share of these, but never in a pedantic way..._" - On Seats and Saddles, by Francis Dwyer, Major of Hussars in the Imperial Austrian Service (*1868*), boldface is my emphasis.
> 
> Tom Roberts said a person training a horse could hardly ever go wrong if they remembered:
> 
> 1 - This will profit you. This will profit you not.
> 
> 2 - Quiet Persistence.
> 
> I would add #3 - We can do this together!
> 
> My wife has been riding regularly with me, and she has encouraged me to start riding Bandit off the trails. The first few times I asked Bandit to enter or exit a wash where there was no trail, he was pretty nervous. So I kept things simple, and we are working our way up in difficulty. We still are not tackling the really hard spots, and I'm not certain my wife's 13.0 hand mustang would handle those with my wife's inexperienced rump anyways.
> 
> But something I'm coming to love about Bandit is when I point him at an exit/entry, and ask him to stop. Then I'll tell him I think we can make it. He'll look. Maybe 2 seconds later, or maybe 30 seconds later, his ears will click forward, his back shift, and then I know he is ready for us to make our move. Then we go together. Afterward, he seems to feel good about himself - and about "us".
> 
> And I am convinced that "together" is nearly irresistible to a horse - be it jumping, dressage, western pleasure, roping, or just picking our way between the cactus and trying to find a place to drop down into a wash. "We can do this together!" motivates a horse in a way "release of pressure" cannot match.
> 
> "_*it loves to exercise its powers, and it possesses a great spirit of emulation; it likes variety of scene and amusement...*__*they like amusement, variety, and society"*_​


Abandoning the trail and going across the Sonoran Desert is something I never tried with Mia. She did get much calmer while I owned her, but she still jumped sideways sometimes, or spun a 360 or more for no apparent reason - and she still does that, I'm told, but in very open country where it doesn't harm much.

With all the cactus, Bandit and I divide our responsibilities. He is often responsible for how we get from our present position to 20 yards out. I'm scanning from 20 yards to 100+, trying to find a route that will minimize our trouble. Sometimes I'm more directive, but sometimes I give him full slack and let him make all the decisions. And that includes honoring his opinion if he feels something is too hard. Horses are much smarter than they get credit for being. If you are lying about trusting them, they will figure it out. If you genuinely trust them, they will figure that out too!


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## bsms

This is something I've been experimenting with a LOT over the last month.

Chenevix_Trench_A History of Horsemanship

"_Modern European horsemen, brought up to the 'balanced seat', have plenty to say against the old fashioned Western stock-saddle. The rider's weight is placed too far back; the saddle is useless for what foxhunters call 'riding across country', since one cannot jump with it and merely climbing a steep bank one is butted in the midriff by the horn as one leans forward...*But these criticisms of the old stock saddle are the objections of ignorance, and are usually voiced by people who have tried to ride with a bent leg on a saddle not designed for it.* A hundred and thirty years ago nearly everyone in Europe and North America - cowpunchers, foxhunters, soldiers - rode with a more or less straight leg, the feet rather far forward, leaning rather far back: any hunting or military print proves the point. The weight-distributing stock-saddle was admirably designed for its purpose and for the contemporary seat...

...In moments of crisis he can grab the horn; even the best riders do not disdain this help when, for instance, a cutting-horse whips around at full gallop; it is a great deal better than hanging on by the reins. Above all, by distributing the rider's weight, the stock saddle is perfect for long distance riding.

A few statistics bear this out. And Australian stockman, on an American stock-saddle, without changing horses rode from Murray River to Melbourne, 143 miles by the route taken, in twenty six hours. A constable of the Royal North-West Mounted Police, on a forty-two pound stock-saddle, rode from Regina to Wood Mountain Post, 132 miles by sunlight, without changing horses, and his horse bucked him off at the finish. Most of the Mounted Police constables and ranch-hands moving between Fort Macleod and Calgary in the 1890s covered the distance, 108 miles, in a day. Kit Carson with a party of five Mexican gentlemen rode from Los Angeles to San Francisco, 600 miles, in six days, and only two of the party changed horses._" (Pages 225-226)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Barry Godden, 26 Feb 2011 - http://www.horseforum.com/western-riding/posting-while-trotting-male-riders-79035/page4/#post942370

"_Years ago I was taught to ride 'Western' by an old, bent bow legged Canadian cowboy who had been involved with horses since he was a kid. In the 1930s he had been a winning rodeo rider. By the time I met him he had formed a Western riding club in Surrey, where anyone who rode horses used the English hunting seat. Kennie's first job with new members was to teach them how to ride Western on his Western schooled horses.

The first lesson was to adjust the stirrups so that the leg was carried almost straight. Enough bend was left in the knee to just lift the butt off the seat of the saddle even at the trot.

The second lesson was to learn to ride with significant weight carried on the stirrups at all times.

The third lesson was to move with the horse, if it leant over, then lean with it.
The rider sat upright and straight using the feet to compensate and resist the Forces of gravity and movement by pressing down on the stirrups - which were almost being used as 'pedals'.

The rider leaned with the horse - if the horse went to the right at speed then the rider would lean over with the horse into the bend.

We always were to ride on a loose rein held in one hand only. The bits were all Western lever bits and we were told never to ride collected as the potential for accidental pressure on the horse's jaw was too great.

When we trotted - which was usually on level tarmac - we always posted.

If the weight was held on the stirrups, then the rider could not rise too high so long as the stirrups had been adjusted correctly for Western. The knee joint took the strain of rising to the trot.

The riding technique as described above was regarded as almost heresy by regular English riders trained by the British Horse Society. But it worked.

My horse would accept being ridden English or Western.
_
Underlining is mine for emphasis
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------








​ 
Jack Woffard of the Shoe Bar outfit flanking the trail herd. Shoe Bar Ranch, Texas, 1912

Erwin E. Smith Collection Guide | Collection Guide

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Based on my own riding, how does this style work out? What happens if you do what Barry Godden was taught in a western stock saddle?

First, I disagree with Chenevix-Trench on this: "rode with a more or less straight leg, the feet rather far forward, leaning rather far back" - because as the picture shows, they did NOT lean back. As a rule, they stayed straight up or slightly forward. The hunters of the early 1800s went further, and leaned FORWARD, not back:

A painting from 1829:








​ 
Drawings show western riders in stock saddles often leaned forward when going fast, although some certainly DID lean back. All possible variations could be found in western riders of the 1800s. Notice the second stunt rider in this scene from an old Bonanza show - very similar to the 1829 foxhunters:








​ 
Here is how it feels to me, when I lengthen my stirrups and ride as Barry Godden describes. My lower leg is forced away from the horse's side and my foot moves forward. Riders used to the idea that the lower leg provides security by gripping the horse (or by doing so with the knee) will hate this approach, because in a western saddle - mine, at least - one MUST bend the knee to keep lower leg contact.

However, with my feet further forward and further out, I now have a triangle of support. It is an inverted Isosceles triangle. The two stirrups are now about 6-8 inches further to the side, and about 8-12 inches further forward. Depending on how much weight I put into the stirrups, my rump may form the third point of the triangle. Or, if enough pressure is applied, my rump gets slightly out of the saddle - maybe a half inch? - and all the rear weight is carried in my thighs.

If I lean slightly forward, moving my shoulders about 3 inches, I feel as if my center of gravity is inside the triangle. And the result IS a very stable position. If the horse turns left, he'll move my left leg while my right stirrup provides stability to the outside of the turn. If my horse hops forward, my center of gravity was forward of my base, and so I stay stable. If he stops suddenly or stumbles, inertia drives me deeper into my stirrups (and thus deeper into my saddle). It does NOT, as one rider on HF speculated, create a "pivot point". It is like a bus rider who has one foot forward when the bus stops - the forward foot protects him from the stop. It does not catapult him! But it would if he started with a bent leg and THEN braced...

Descending into a wash, it works very well. Most riders put their legs forward as the horse descends a steep slope. Surprisingly, to me at least, it works rather well climbing out of a wash! Moving my lower leg forward moves my center of gravity forward. It does not and cannot move my center of gravity BACK. Too much speculation has been done based on two dimensional drawings and illusions from them! Moving weight forward on the horse must move the center of gravity forward. And to the extent it moves forward BELOW the waist, I do not need to lean forward ABOVE the waist! When doing this, all my weight is transferred to the stirrups or thighs (mostly thighs when climbing out). A small inclination forward at the waist is all it takes to then keep balanced.

One area where it seems to work extremely well is when we are going across the desert off trail. The horse needs to take care of his own footing and watching to avoid the near cactus. I'm looking 20-100 yards ahead to plot out our future route. In some cases, such as when riding parallel to a wash and trying to find an entry point (washes are the Interstates Highways of the Desert), it keeps me very stable and predictable for my horse even when I'm looking back to see if I've missed a path through the dense brush that lines a desert wash. If I am too busy to pay attention to what my horse is doing, at least I can be stable for him - regardless of his choice. And with a triangular base of support, he can go in ANY direction he needs - and I will stay stable.

Something I like is that it seems to wrap me around the horse's center of gravity. And I see no sign my horse objects to this style of riding. If anything, he seems comfortable.

I also tried this approach in an Australian saddle on Mia. Frankly, it did not work nearly as well. And it might not work well at all on a horse built differently than Bandit's A-frame, slab side build. Or in a different western saddle. I don't like it when dressage riders tell me everyone needs to ride their way, and I won't begin to pretend this is a good approach that everyone should consider.

A big drawback is that it is tiring on the legs. It is much easier to just sit on the horse. Carrying my weight in my thighs is hard work, and I figure those old cowboys had to have legs of iron. It is easier, not harder, to let my legs hang and my weight just go thru my rump.

Stability is a mixed bag. In designing a jet fighter, the designers want the fighter to be unstable. An unstable object can maneuver faster than a stable one. Ocean liners are stable, but do not turn well. And if you want to maximum perform a horse, then being too stable harms the horse. 

Still, the performance disadvantage may not be as great as folks think. When jockeys went from a long leg to perched above the horse, the average race time improved 6% in 10 years - and has only improved 1% in the 100+ years that followed. But 6%, while huge in a race - it means 317 feet over a mile, so more than 100 yards at the finish line! - is not nearly as huge when walking thru the desert. It is the equivalent of a 10 mile ride turning into a 10.6 mile ride.

But this approach is probably a bad way to get maximum performance out of your horse. I like it at a walk and trot. I dislike it at a canter. I have mixed feelings about it in a climb. If the climb is not too steep or too long, then I like it. If the place was truly challenging, then I think I'd prefer my stirrups underneath me.

After trying this approach, I realized that it was and is most commonly used by people who do a lot of what I like it for - riding off trail, or riding when the rider is working at a job. If I'm busy with something besides riding, then it clicks.

When playing at herding sheep last month, the sheep herders - the real ones, not me - were not riding behind the sheep. The horse was behind the sheep, but the herders were paying attention to the sheep. If one was weak or hurt, they'd dismount and carry it to the trailer being pulled behind us. The the hurt sheep could rest, and the herder would trot forward and get back on his horse. It was a moment like that when I took this picture:








​
But the old time cowboys also had a different riding environment. The ranch I visited has grazing allotments covering 25,000 acres this summer, and a winter allotment that covers 30,000. There is no cell phone coverage. If you fall and get hurt, with no trail, you will need to crawl to a ridgeline and hope for cell phone coverage. So stability may have a higher value for them. It has a high value to me when riding down a paved road, or going between cactus.

This is just my thinking right now. I'm certain I will continue experimenting with this approach. The more I try it, the more I tend to like it - and my horse seems very content as well. At a minimum, it is not a BAD way to ride. And FWIW, this anatomically correct male who has spent a lot of time riding this way now is saying categorically: It has NOTHING to do with protecting the 'man parts'! :icon_rolleyes:

You can see Bandit's slender build in this picture, when my legs are relaxed and hanging down at the knee. He is about 1/2 of a Quarter Horse - so does that make him an "Eighth Horse"? :rofl:








​


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I do tend to wonder how much anatomy plays into what riding on balance is.


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## tinyliny

OH MY GOD!!! I am just about to die from laughing!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

From this experiment, my observational theory is this: a man with his weight on the balls of his feet under his hips and his shoulders tipped forward is not on balance, which is why he cannot stand up with the chair. A woman in the same position remains on balance. 

It might explain why the “home” stirrup position (pressure on the more centralized area of the foot), with the feet more forward in what is typically called “a chair seat” is more on balance position for a male rider who is also tipping his shoulders forward at the same time. 

In contrast, a female rider can get away with being on the balls of her feet, feet beneath her hips and still tip the shoulders forward and also remain on balance.

I knew when I played ice hockey, that if I wanted to take down a male puck handler, my best bet was to take his shoulders out of balance with the rest of his body. If it was a female, that same hit had little to no effect, it had to be a hip check. 

When defending a one on one, (skating backwards and controlling the gap between yourself and the puck handler), watch a man’s chest and a woman’s lower belly those were the parts that led on any quick change of direction.


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## bsms

^^ That is a very interesting thought. It never occurred to me, but it might explain a lot. I did the "chair experiment" in college, back when chairs were first invented, but it didn't occur to me to link it to riding.

I do believe riding can vary greatly from rider to horse, and the tack then adds another wrinkle. My wife is learning to ride by following Bandit & I on Cowboy, and she tries different things and see how she feels and how Cowboy reacts. After 29 years of marriage, the closest I come to instructing is to say something like "Have you tried shortening your reins?" - and I offer that much about once/week.

I'm glad she is learning on a good-natured yet independent pony. She told me last week that "_Cowboy understands give and take. So just because I give him his way once doesn't mean he gets it all the time, and in return, when I need him to really go to work, he gives me his best._" From time to time, if I see something edible, I'll steer Bandit to it and then stop him and let him eat. Cowboy joins us, and my wife & I talk for 2-5 minutes while the horses eat and relax beneath us. Then when we say it is time to go, they go without question or complaint. The longer I ride, the more I'm convinced that horses instinctively LOVE quiet cooperation! And when they do something challenging for them, and you then tell them they are the biggest, bravest, boldest horse in history...well, they might not understand the words, but they seem to appreciate the spirit.

I have no intention of imitating "Jack Woffard of the Shoe Bar outfit" all the time, but for me in my saddle and on my horse, it really works better than I expected. But the stability I feel could be a male vs female balance sort of thing. And for an "1/8 Horse", Bandit is really impressing me with his spirit and try.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

We did it back in 8th grade as our prelude to a Science chapter on anatomy and “the difference between boys and girls” AKA “the birds and the bees”; which in a Catholic school is always prickly subject matter.

Good to hear your wife is enjoying your rides together, it gives me hope for DH.

After 28 years of marriage and 40+ years after we first met, DH is finally riding as well…sort of. He got on Cowboy the other day bareback and the horse wouldn’t move a muscle until I helped DH get balanced and then the steps were very tentative.

My Hubby said that Cowboy just knew “this guy doesn’t have a clue what he’s doing, so I better not move or he might fall off.” 

He might be right; the horse is smarter and a bigger babysitter than I gave him credit for.


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## gottatrot

I think the variety of upper body positions seen in good riders (forward, straight or back) might also have to do with balancing on an individual horse. 
I've ridden two or three horses whose balance felt best when I had my torso slightly behind vertical. These horses were not built downhill, but their balance seemed to sit farther back than most horses.

With most horses I've ridden, I've felt most in balance when sitting straight up or slightly forward. Amore has a very forward balance with a super short back and wide barrel. As she goes faster or jumps, a person has to get very forward or put her off balance. 

As I develop as a rider, I'm learning to adjust my balance to the horse and whether I feel behind, with or in front of the motion. So I don't believe anymore that a person should say the torso should be at this angle or that - it depends on what you are riding.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Oliver is nearly level but ever so slightly up hill, whereas Cowboy is almost exactly level. Both have huge round barrels. 










I haven't shown since I was 12 so never really consciously thought about my body position relative to the horse's build. I just feel the balance and follow it, my instructor has never corrected me (other than "look where you are going") so I assume it isn't too bad. I have ridden some saddles though that I felt were constantly pushing me out of balance; no fun.


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## Dehda01

Men's balance and women's balance points are significantly different in the saddle for two reasons- 1) center of gravity- woman(even though we have a larger chest) usually have larger hips, and thighs which drops our COG- and are often shorter- though that is not my case. 2)Men need to rotate more their the tail bone to avoid certain genitalia. That puts you more into a chair seat.


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## bsms

Are these two members of the same species?








​ 










:shrug:

A "One-Eighth Horse"...​


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I think so!

I know....Oliver is a goon. :redface: Late gelding. Wonder what he'd look like if I actually rode him everyday?

Check out this butt (he goes dark bay certain times a year)....all I can say is "Hills".


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## bsms

​ 
"I don't need hills...just meals..." - bsms's Cowboy :wink:

"Remember: 

*Nothing says 'I love you' like food!*"

My theory is the rolls of fat on either side of the cinch keep his saddle stable...:winetime:

I guess that is a case of 'whatever gets the job done'!​


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I had a lady once insist after watching me ride him, that he was an Arabian. 

I smiled and then thought can I join you?....:winetime:


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## phantomhorse13

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> I had a lady once insist after watching me ride him, that he was an Arabian.


Someone thought ^^ was an _arab_?!

Two of our guys have pretty decent booties for arabs..











but don't think someone will mistake them for Oliver. :rofl:


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

^^Yep. I told her that from what I know of arabs he'd be a monster, but she kept insisting that there are some arabs built like him and from the way he acts and the way he moves he wasn't a full QH (that part we agreed on).....it was an odd ride that day.


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## bsms

Posted this on Bondre's journal, but it applies and I'll expand here:



bsms said:


> ...I generally think men do best with a horse who challenges them. A lot of men would quickly get bored with Trooper, which isn't entirely fair since Trooper can sometimes remind you he is a horse. My daughter had her first fall in 8 years of riding two days ago, when Trooper fell too far behind Bandit and got a bit rowdy trying to catch up. And a girl who like to ride with a LOT of slack and sometimes with feet out of the stirrups did a slow roll off and on to her butt, followed by a face plant that dented the desert! Happily, we were off the trails, so the desert was a bit more yielding than it normally is, but her face is all scrapped up on the right side. BTW - after talking about it, we're thinking Trooper may be losing the vision in his right eye, which may require him to be ridden closer to Bandit than he used to need.
> 
> Although earlier in the ride she had cantered Trooper down to the end of this dirt road, and then back - much to Bandit's frustration, but Bandit needs to learn how to let other horses go away and come back...but Trooper did fine:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> Still...Mia got me hooked on riding, and a truly reliable horse may not have done so....


My youngest is fine, and perhaps a little less cocky now. I really think she just gave up riding, because Trooper had slowed to a canter and then she just..."fainted". Not a real faint, but that is how it looked to me. It didn't help matters ANY that she squealed like a teen at a rock concert when Trooper took off!

Bandit & I whipped around, but she "fainted" before we could get to Trooper. After her face plant (happily not into prickly pear), Trooper ran back about a hundred yards, then turned and looked with his rein draped over one ear. Bandit rose to the occasion, as he often seems to do. He was rock steady. Once I got my daughter on her feet, she got to steady herself against Bandit while I went to get Trooper. Trooper was a bit nervous about me - we've NEVER been buddies - and started backing fast when I grabbed the reins. I went back fast with him, expecting him to back into some cactus. Then he'd leap forward, and if I timed it right, I could fling myself sideways and spin him around. Goodness knows, I had done that often enough with Mia!

But he stopped just short of the cactus, I got him to quiet down, and got the reins off his ear and on to his halter. After rejoining my daughter and Bandit, we started walking for home - daughter didn't think her rump would allow her to get up into the saddle. Part way back, we switched horses and I led Trooper and she led Bandit. I'd swear Bandit was trying to calm her down. He walked beside her with his head below his withers, which he never does - at least, never before.

My daughter has agreed to try my sheepskin seat saver for her next ride. "Butt velcro" may help...but mainly she needs to be more aware of her horse! We've talked about it before - me talking to deaf ears - but this really is NOT the best way to ride a horse, even Trooper:








​ 
BTW - now that my sheepskin has been donated to another saddle, I put on the "bucking rolls" and it looks like this:


















​
I think of it as "*Butts on Ice*", a thrilling spectacle for watchers but not always so much fun for me! A "slick seat saddle"...well, it has a slick seat! The bucking rolls act like poleys. Tried them out yesterday, cantering Bandit in our little arena. Didn't slam into them, but it was nice knowing they were there, just in case. I'll probably buy another sheepskin, full size, because that gives me "thigh velcro" as well. My western poleys can stay on until I then. I do like being a bit closer to the horse's back, but I tend to view sheepskin as a safety device for when things go wrong.

Although Bandit was a champ the other day! I think he'll eventually be an excellent trail horse.

Also: saw this the other day, although it might upset some people:

"_Many horses could benefit from opportunities for generalization. As mentioned earlier, horses in specific riding disciplines are frequently not allowed to participate in activities other than what interests their riders. As a result, they go through mechanical motions that rarely enhance any cognitive skill. Evidence of this can be seen in a recent study that showed that, compared with horses involved in other disciplines, high-level dressage horses displayed the lowest level of learning performance in simple tests. It was hypothesized that because these horses are trained to perform highly sophisticated, precise behaviors, riders give them minimal freedom; therefore, they are inhibited from learning to learn or generalizing._" 

- The Thinking Horse: Cognition and Perception Reviewed

Evelyn B. Hanggi, MS, PhD

http://www.equineresearch.org/support-files/hanggi-thinkinghorse.pdf

I think much of what people "know" about horses is based on horses in an almost institutional environment. :icon_rolleyes:


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## tinyliny

that's the beauty of full seat breeches; you take the 'stick-'em" whereever you go, whatever saddle you sit in.


you might look into having some chaps made for you.. they help a lot with 'stick em' but they can make you pretty hot, though.


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## gottatrot

I hope your daughter isn't too sore and also that she won't lose her confidence. There's a fine line between relaxing and enjoying a ride and staying alert enough to be safe. 

Our brains are very interesting though, and our subconscious is very talented at helping us avoid things that hurt. We sometimes do this by stiffening parts of our body we don't even know we're controlling. But also I learned through falling off horses that my brain could pick up cues relating to things that had precipitated previous falls, and that falling itself helps prevent one from falling again. After the pain of this fall, her body will most likely force her to pay attention if a horse makes a similar move to take off again. Which hopefully will help her prevent it.

That article about horse cognition was very interesting. 
I think that as the author said, they probably have not found a good way yet to test how horses learn by watching others. In my own personal experience, I've seen how one horse will step and slip, and the horse behind will avoid that spot. Or how one horse will put their head under a fence and find good grass, and another horse will do the same. I don't know what else you would call that other than learning by example. 

I want to retain this information and always remember that horses become better at learning when their environment and what they do is more varied and flexible.


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## bsms

I'm convinced horses learn by watching others. Trooper, Mia and Bandit all wanted nothing to do with being hosed down until they watched Cowboy getting sprayed and loving it. Then Mia slowly approached and stood rigid as a board as I hosed her down...and then realized it felt pretty good when it was 100+ outside. Same with Bandit. Trooper now accepts it, but I'm not sure he enjoys it - but he would fight to avoid the water until he watched both Cowboy and Mia getting soaked.

And when a horse who balks over a scary thing then follows once another horse goes by...what is that, if not learning something by watching?


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## knightrider

Learning by watching is very true about eating things. I've never acquired a horse yet that liked watermelon. But after they watch another horse loving watermelon, they start trying it. Sometimes it takes a couple of tries, but finally they all start loving it too.

Also, the man who "taught" me to do tricks with horses was Johnny Bergeson. He said that if your horse can watch another horse doing the tricks, your horse will learn them much faster. I have found that to be true. Except for our "World's Greatest Pony" Tico. He was pretty good with tricks until he saw his (then) rival doing tricks. After that, he wouldn't do any of his tricks and to this day, still won't. But he has a LOT of personality. He's a very unique pony.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Dr. Hanggi is doing some amazing research into the cognitive abilities of horses. She is one of the few. Most research is done on humans, or rats and then cross applied to horses.

Examples would be saying that a horse cannot do X because they do not have the prefrontal cortex of a human therefore it is automatically a physical impossibility for them to possess a particular trait such as reason or feelings. They say any other belief is anthropomorphizing and unscientific.

I have always found it ironic though, that the same people who quite often accuse others of anthropomorphizing, don’t think twice about taking what we know of the human brain, juxtaposing it upon a horse brain. Somehow THAT is scientific.


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## bsms

Sorry for the blurry pictures, but whenever I went out, they stopped. Trooper almost never plays, and sometimes I thought he was taking things seriously. But I think Bandit was playing, and the last picture is how they finished. But being in a fairly small corral, our horses haven't played much...until now. I've watched Bandit and Cowboy obviously playing almost daily, and then this. Hope it was play...

Oh...and my wife's stuff for her chickens was in the way, and a couple of chickens were watching.








​ 







​ 
End state:








​ 
I'd gladly put up with a bit more herdbound if, in return, they started playing with each other!


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## bsms

Just fed them and cleaned the corral. Not a mark on either, so they couldn't have been too angry...

Bandit likes rearing, I guess.

;>)


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## Bondre

They look like Macarena and Flamenca. Bandit is saying "let's play!" (Macarena) and Trooper (Flamenca) is saying "push off and bother someone else".

Bandit is much younger than the other two isn't he? He'll just have to play on his own if the other two aren't very interested. Macarena has bouts of high spirits when she goes bucking and rearing round their corral. Flamenca retreats into a corner meanwhile with her butt facing outwards, and if Macarena gets too rowdy or too close for comfort she gives her two hind hooves to warn her to keep away. Flamenca isn't interested in games!


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## bsms

Mia didn't play. At all. "*WE do not engage ourselves in physical exertion with commoners!*"

Trooper and Cowboy played...about 3-4 times/year. Bandit is 8, vs 17 for Trooper (and probably around 15-18ish for Cowboy, although we don't know for certain).

However, Bandit and Cowboy have been sharing flakes of hay about 50% of the time, and this last month we've seen them playing 3-4 times/week. Bandit has been trying to get Trooper to share a flake of hay, but has only been marginally successful.

However, Trooper was going back and forth with him the day I took the pictures.

Yesterday, we let them out of the corral because all the rain left it muddy. We have a fenced in "outer backyard", but zoning rules don't allow us to use it for keeping horses. But once in a while....

About an hour later, I heard the "thundering of hooves". Went out back, without a camera, and the 3 were chasing each other. The chasee frequently turned into the chaser, and one of the three would often duck into the corral to take a short cut. But Bandit (#3) was chasing Trooper (#1) as often as the reverse. They pretty much ran for 15 minutes. Chubby little Cowboy would sometimes peal off for a breather, but Trooper and Bandit only slowed down for tight corners. No pinned ears, no anger...just having fun. The previous two days had given us 15% of our annual rainfall, so they probably felt cooped up and ready to go.

Bandit seems awfully fond on George Morris's "back door". He's #3 of 3 in terms of dominance, but he seems to get what he wants a large percentage of the time. His previous owner told me he didn't mix well, and it took almost 8 months before I could mix Bandit & the others without bloodshed. And part of why he would wait for me at the gate (he doesn't do it as much anymore) was that he didn't LIKE his corral mates. 

"_Get me out of here! I don't like them.._.":​ 







​ 
But with time, it is changing. Most of the time, now, I enter the corral and the three of them are side by side. I shove Cowboy out of the way, and halter Bandit. Bandit has no reluctance, and he sometimes will wait for me at the gate - but he no longer stands off by himself all day.

And while we have 3 shelters built, the three now typically crown together under one. Mia didn't share a shelter, not unless it was very cold. Commoners were not welcome to touch Her Highness. So maybe it is having 3 geldings.

But I love seeing them together! I loved watching them chase each other yesterday! That trust and pleasure in each other's company must be good for their souls!

The drawback is that Bandit worries more now when I take him out by himself, and we don't go that far away by ourselves. 

I don't think he has any worries for himself. People have told me that a herd bound horse doesn't trust his rider. But Bandit's trust in me is obviously vastly greater than a year ago. He doesn't act scared if we go out alone. He is not on alert, looking around like he does if he feels threatened or unsafe. But his mind isn't totally with me. The three horses all know Bandit is the smartest. And I think Bandit is worried about how the others will get by without him there to lead - even though he is supposed to be #3 of 3. 

Looking back, Mia was like that. People told me she had problems because she didn't trust me, but her behavior was similar to Bandit's - distracted, not scared. Her Arabian neck might be all the way down with her withers, but she'd keep turning an ear toward where "her herd" was, and keeping "her mind between two reins" was tough! And of course, a distracted horse is more likely to startle than a focused one.

But once again, what a lot of very experienced riders with decades of experience have told me doesn't seem to match what I see and experience. If Bandit gets worried, including when we are going down a trail, it looks like this:








​
There is no doubt when Bandit is concerned about safety! When I take him out alone now, his head may be down, his back relaxed...but his mind is not all there. Mia was clearly Number One of Three. Bandit is clearly Number Three of Three. But both had a responsibility to take care of the others. Both were (and are) The Horse The Others Hide Behind In Trouble. And that responsibility is one Mia and Bandit both accept.

The flip side is nice. When I go out with my wife, or daughter, or both of them...well, the truth is my daughter's mind wanders. My wife's doesn't, but she is a beginning rider and Cowboy knows it. But Bandit and I are in the lead. Bandit is "The Horse The Others Hide Behind In Trouble" - and Bandit usually looks to me for decisions. If Cowboy and Trooper accept Bandit's decisions, and Bandit accepts mine, then it is a lot easier for me to lead a safe trail ride.

As my wife improves her riding, that may change. Cowboy is actually an uncommonly sensible horse, and I think Bandit will accept things from him - once my wife is ready to be trusted by Cowboy. So it is a mixed bag.

Still, the horses spend most of their time with each other. If they reach a point of feeling very confident in each other, and can play with each other and totally relax with each other, that is a good thing. A *VERY* good thing! Mia was too intense to relax, even with another horse. Bandit prefers to sneak in the back door rather than kick down the front, and I think he is turning the 3 horses into a herd. Via what Tom Roberts called "Quiet Persistence"...

:winetime:​


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## bsms

Oh...and it rained again last night, and now is raining at 8 AM. No riding for another day. It doesn't just get the trails muddy. It is that super slick kind of mud. I went jogging yesterday, and almost lost my footing a couple of times. There is a reason why the horses dislike mud here...it is the Sonoran Desert equivalent of ice. It scares them, with good reason.

I put my sheepskin pad on my daughter's saddle. I think she is going to go back to wearing a helmet, at least for a little while. The full sized sheepskin is on my wife's saddle. I've ordered another full sized piece of Butt Velcro for me. It is supposed to arrive Thursday. I honestly think Butt Velcro is more important for safety than a helmet is. I've been spending time this last week riding my slick saddle with the 'bucking rolls' - or 'western poleys', as I think of them - but it is much harder to ride well and follow the horse's movement that way. It isn't impossible to ride with the slick saddle, but it is about 10 times harder. I'm looking forward to Thursday's mail. And if the forecast is correct, I may not ride before then. There is a good chance we're going to get at least 30% of our annual rainfall this week.


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## Mulefeather

Very interesting about the equine cognition study! I do believe that's another vote in my mind for cross-training horses across disciplines as much as we can. Not only do new challenges and new things keep them fresh and engaged, to me it almost helps provide a "context" to the training the horse has learned when they can apply it somewhere else. 

In the documentary "Buck", one clinic attendee they spoke to talked about having her dressage horses chase cows, and how she felt it refreshed and invigorated them for their dressage training. 

When I was doing clicker training with miniature horses, I found that it helped me to practice individually with another horse I was working nearby. One little mare in particular really took to it like a duck to water, and I ended up teaching her how to "fetch" like a dog.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I think a lot of people don’t comprehend what it means when Dr. Hanngi says that horses have the ability to think conceptually. It means they can reason and think abstractly and not just act on instinct.


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## bsms

The nearest weather station to me shows 2 inches of rain today, on top of 2.5 inches in the previous three days. That would be 4.5 inches in 4 days in a place where the typical annual rainfall is 15 inches.

I had two vertical sided buckets sitting out in the front yard. One of them still had some pellets in it, after I gave Bandit some extra groceries Saturday (he didn't finish, the guy is NOT food oriented). Both buckets had over 7 inches of water in them after the rain stopped at noon. I didn't put any water in them, and my wife swears she didn't, nor would there be any reason for either of us to do so. The little wash that runs next to my corrals then crosses the street I live on about 100 yards down. There are 12 inch diameter rocks in the middle of the street, and about 6 inches of dirt/sand.

Forecast is 50% chance of rain for tomorrow. Of course, rain is generally welcome here, but 30-50% of our annual rain in 3-4 days may be a bit too much of a blessing...


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## gottatrot

That is _a lot_ of rain. We occasionally get rain like that in the winter. Even with roads graded for rain and drains everywhere, things will overflow. 

It's great the horses are becoming a herd and playing with each other. Amore will play if there is no food, but otherwise she eats and sleeps. Halla plays, but her play is driving other horses around and pretending aggression at them. I've noticed that geldings tend to rear and bite each other when they play, and mares tend to squeal and paw or kick more. 


> (*BSMS*)
> People have told me that a herd bound horse doesn't trust his rider. But Bandit's trust in me is obviously vastly greater than a year ago. He doesn't act scared if we go out alone. He is not on alert, looking around like he does if he feels threatened or unsafe. But his mind isn't totally with me. The three horses all know Bandit is the smartest. And I think *Bandit is worried about how the others will get by without him there to lead* - even though he is supposed to be #3 of 3.
> 
> Looking back, Mia was like that. People told me she had problems because she didn't trust me, but *her behavior was similar to Bandit's - distracted, not scared*. Her Arabian neck might be all the way down with her withers, but she'd keep turning an ear toward where "her herd" was, and keeping "her mind between two reins" was tough! And of course, a distracted horse is more likely to startle than a focused one.


Halla has always been herd bound and is still very confident when out alone. She is distressed if I take her out and saddle her by herself, but once we get a little distance from the barn she becomes calm and focuses on the work at hand. She feels very responsible about running the herd at home. She worries that things will fall apart without her there supervising. She has no distress about going out to get tacked up with Nala. Apparently Nala is a job that takes priority. It's like taking her work on the road with her. She has two jobs; one is managing the horses at home, and the other is going out for rides. She will become torn sometimes while getting ready to go out alone, but once she decides on which job is priority, she settles into it.

Amore has no distress about leaving other horses. She does get worried when out alone, but it's not about being herd bound, it seems to be more that she feels when other horses are with us they will get attacked first while she runs off. If we leave a big meal at home, then she does worry about it getting eaten before she can return to it. That's her real concern, she is "food bound." If she discovers our ride is taking us toward green grass, she no longer cares about going home at all. 

It seems helpful to know the reason why a horse doesn't want to leave the herd. Makes it easier to deal with.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Our yearly average rainfall is 21” a year with 266 days of sunshine and a summer average high of 97 and an average low of 76. It is considered a semi-arid desert. 

It looks very different here than where you are. I wonder how much of that is HOW the rain comes?

We have two rainy seasons where we get somewhat regular rains maybe once a week and then it isn’t unusual to get no rain at all from June to August and sometimes September. In the past couple of years, coming out of our drought, we had days of over 12" in as many hours. 

One of our biggest weather warnings here is flash flooding. 

Our property has two “wet weather” creeks, the main one flows into a nearby chain of lakes (a dammed up river). It isn’t unusual to have it go from dry as a bone to this, in less than two hours. 









Sometimes you can see from the debris left on the banks in the morning that it has risen over 10' overnight. It does tend to recede quickly since it flows into a lake.

Our horse pasture is on the other side of the creek from the house so we have a climbing rope stretched between two trees (upper left corner) and we put on a climbing harness in order to cross and feed/check on them when the creek is raging.








The water has gotten so high as to nearly be at the top of that swale on the other side. The previous owners told us that he once had to move his cattle out of the pasture because there was three feet of moving water in it. In the 14 years we've lived here it's never gotten quite that high. 

Right now some rain would be really, really nice as the creek is dry for the first time in over a year and a half. It refreshes the soul!


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## bsms

A big problem for us is that at least half of our rain comes in 'gully washers' - 2 inches in an hour, all of which runs off. That is why the area near me looks like this from the air (click to enlarge, if curious):








​ 
The spot where the trail crosses a wash just before getting to part of a square, in the upper right hand corner, is where Cowboy & I were shot at by idiots emptying their handguns without regard for any backstop or trails. The reddish area in the middle looks like this:


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## Bondre

Your rainfall is very similar to ours - we officially get 370mm which is 15". And the landscape has many parallels. We are lucky that there are still a lot of scrubby pine trees on the hillsides which fortunately no-one ever bothered to cut when such things were still permitted. Their presence makes a huge difference to maintaining the sparse vegetation cover and reducing erosion. Apart from the pine trees there are various woody shrubs, some prickly and others aromatic like rosemary and lavender, and lots of esparto grass. 

Typical hillside vegetation:


We often get the same summer deluges that you have been having. They are invariably destructive and the local farmers shudder when the storm clouds gather. The low-lying land is irrigated (by channelled river water, not bore holes) and used for fruit and vegetables, both of which are susceptible to summer storms especially when they start with a good hail storm. 

Bit it seems like there's no such thing as an average year, climatically, any more. Every year is different. The expected rainfall in autumn and spring is now a plus rather than a given, and this year it's rained so little that I don't know how the cereal farmers north of us have managed to harvest anything. I guess the minimal rainfall we have had has come at just the right time in order for the dryland cereals to complete their cycle.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Way off topic, but Bondre, the Spaniards who first settled the area I live in called it Balcones.....what does that word mean?


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## Bondre

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Bondre, the Spaniards who first settled the area I live in called it Balcones...


Balconies :shock: just as it sounds. Which rather begs the question of why they would choose such a name. Are there inland cliffs with ledges like balconies or anything like that?


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Leave it to Texans to murder a word...they pronounce it bal-cone like this:










I suppose it could come from the layered over hanging look to many of the limestone outcroppings.





















You can be riding along on the flats through the brush and oops! Nothing there!


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## bsms

I sometimes complain about riding for 10 minutes and not being able to find a spot to drop into a wash. Makes me wonder how the explorers felt when they came to places like these:








​ 







​ 







​ 
There you are, just riding your horse along, feeling like you are making good time, and then: "Oops! Looks like we may need to detour...for the next 3 days... :eek_color: ...":


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## phantomhorse13

bsms said:


> Makes me wonder how the explorers felt when they came to places like these


I happened to catch a show about the Donner Party on tv the other day, and had never put together that where they got stranded was the start of the Tevis trail. That trail, which is well-established and maintained in present day, is scary as h#ll.. I can't imagine coming into that area back then. And with wagons, cattle, etc!!

Luckily, falling off a cliff is not generally an issue here. Tho I have to say I think I would take (avoidable) cliffs over your attacking cactus.


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## bsms

This is part of a post I made on gottatrot's journal, shortened a bit and I'll add some at the end:



bsms said:


> ...One of the things I liked in Littauer's book was his statement that average riders should NOT look to the example of top riders, because riders and horses at the top of their game had a level of athletic ability no recreational rider could hope to match.
> 
> "_I personally, appreciating the scientific part of riding and devoting this book primarily to it, because it is the part that can be taught, am very much for individual artistic expression. If someone were to obtain a magnificent performance from his horse, neglecting most of the advice in this book, I would be the first one to appreciate it. *Rules are not made for geniuses. *The trouble is that the artistic part of riding does not allow itself to be analyzed or imitated; it is the property of an individual. And even if one is born with it, his natural talent will not manifest it from the first day in the saddle, but only after education or long experience...
> 
> ...Translating this into terms of riding, it means that while the rider is exclusively interested in himself; that is, in how HE looks in the saddle, in how HE makes the horse take a jump, in how HE holds his hands, *he will remain a rider and only a rider - not even an artistic one. In order to be a horseman he must forget himself, identify himself with the horse, feel that it is he, himself, who has changed leads at the canter or taken the jump; only then will there be that complete union and harmony that produces true art.*" - Page 191
> 
> "Believe me, you will never become a horseman if the only type of suggestions you are going to look for are such as these: "keep your heels down and hold your stirrups under the balls of your feet", "to start the canter on the right lead keep your right leg at the girth, while with the left leg etc., etc." These are secondary and elementary considerations. In riding, as in everything else, *an understanding of fundamental ideas is all important, while details like heels down don't make horsemen*. Appreciation of the importance of the horse's balance is basic and hence the whole of this chapter is devoted to it. There are no shortcuts, and to make your efforts in the saddle worthwhile you just have to learn the basic theory. To cheer you up - it is very simple." Page 31
> 
> _I'm obviously no genius like Eric Lamaze, nor my horse some genius of a horse. But I'm slowly coming to appreciate that even what we do together is a blending of my horse's abilities and desires, my tack, my goals and my limitations (and strengths) as a rider. Thus what works well for me might REALLY be something that most people should NOT do. It could just be, for example, that the straight legged approach to riding used by old time cowboys works for me because it is something that works well for a very slender horse ridden in a western saddle with a relatively larger rider. On a thick Quarter Horse, it might have no place at all.
> 
> And I'm convinced Reiningcatsanddogs' video demonstrating the difference in the center of gravity of the average male and average female also demonstrates why some men might instinctively keep their feet further forward - because when our heavier upper bodies start going forward, we're screwed if our feet are directly under our hips! Unless, of course, you are an Eric Lamaze and have reserves of skill, balance and strength that most of us lack.
> 
> When someone tells me I MUST get to toes pointed forward and my heels under my rump to ride well, I think they entirely miss the point of riding. Littauer said the first principle of good riding was to stay in fluid balance with your horse. Apart from the fact that in my saddle, pointing my toes straight ahead would first require me to take a sledgehammer and shatter my ankles and legs...the fact remains that my current angle of foot works very well for me, my horse & my saddle. We are working with each other and my knee doesn't throb afterward.
> 
> I'm also becoming convinced that "mutually acceptable compromise" is the key to good horsemanship...[and] "Horse" comes first in "horsemanship"...:grin:


OK, I'm no genius. But that doesn't mean that I cannot learn things by experimenting as I ride, so that I tailor how I ride based on what works for me and my horse. It doesn't mean it would be good for a new rider taking his turn on a lesson horse who is ridden 25 times a week, each time by a different rider. But even I can adjust based on my individual situation - IF I care more about results than following rules of equitation.

The last ride before our week of rain, I finished Bandit with some cantering in our very small arena - 80' across, and Bandit doesn't want to be right next to the rails, so more like 50' in diameter for turning. I got my third sheepskin cover yesterday (now we all have them), but was riding in my "*Butts on Ice*" slick saddle last week. And I mean ON, not IN!

I asked for a canter, but just before we started a turn, he switched to a gallop. As we turned around, my inside leg slipped back, bent, and was gripping tight on the inside. My outside leg went forward, bracing both to the front and well to the side. To be honest, all I really was doing was trying to keep from sliding off my slick saddle. It wasn't planned or thought out. But this:








​ 

was doing MY butt no favors! I can see where they would be great saddles for an experienced ranch rider putting in 12 hour days on a solid horse. They are not such a great design for me.

Had anyone taken a picture of me, they would have said my equitation sucked. NO ONE is supposed to brace against the outside of the turn with their leg stuck out and forward. But I really think that was all that kept me in the saddle. Other than dropping the reins and grabbing the horn with both hands, I don't know what I could have done and stayed on.

Since it worked, we did two tight laps like that, then I asked him to slow and he did. We called it a day. And I now have a full sized sheepskin on my slick saddle, turning it into a super rough-out saddle. Maybe it would have made a difference. Maybe not. Maybe the optimum would be to use the position that keeps me on PLUS the improved grip of the sheepskin. Maybe I should ride both with and without the sheepskin (they are easy to remove and put back on). Then I can experiment with position as well as using grip.

But riding for effect is much different from riding for show, or a totally new rider on his first few lessons on a strange horse! Even a rider like me can strive for artistry, if I care more about working WITH my horse than how we look while doing so:

_*"...he must forget himself, identify himself with the horse, feel that it is he, himself, who has changed leads at the canter or taken the jump; only then will there be that complete union and harmony that produces true art.*"

:racing:
_
BTW - I'm grateful for some of the discussions on the journal threads that speculated on using the stirrups as a substitute for the ground. If the ground starts to slide out from under you, you instinctively put a foot and leg out to stabilize you in the direction of the slide. I think that is what I did last week, just instinctively using the stirrups as my "ground" to keep my balance when I was about to slide off and out...:icon_rolleyes:​


----------



## bsms

*I think he is finally skittish*

Got a short ride in today, first in a week, and my youngest daughter's first ride since her fall. With 7 inches of rain this last week, things were quite different. Folks around here say that rain "makes the rocks come to the surface". I suspect it is more a case of the surface lowering around the rocks, but it is an expressive description. Even our corral will need to have some dirt hauled in and dumped. They have pretty rocky footing in their shelters right now!

I wore a helmet today because I wanted my daughter to wear one. Trooper believes a rider falling off means he did something bad, and I thought he might be nervous. And it was her first time using a sheepskin seat. And I knew it would all look and smell different, and Bandit might be 'elevated' - kind of like the rocks! But if I wanted to tell my daughter to wear a helmet today, I couldn't very well wear my cotton hat.

This is how Bandit looked saddled up, as I got Trooper's saddle on his back:








​ 
I think it illustrates just how much his withers can LOWER when he puts his head down. It doesn't always work that way:








​ 
But when he wants to, he can open up his shoulders and his spine lowers between his shoulders. The saddle actually fits him OK - a little too much rock, but close enough that I'd need to buy a custom built saddle to fit him any better. When he wants, he can also graze with no more back-lowering than Trooper. I took this picture just to show what happens in a week when we DO get plenty of rain:








​ 
The horses, of course, loved it.

My youngest and I had a short conversation about my new sheepskin cover:

YD: "_If a NYC pimp rode a horse, that is what he would ride in!_"

Dad: "_Just what experiences have you had with NYC pimps?_"

YD: Silent. 

I think I won that round, although now I may need to put some pink tassels on my horse, or gold plate the saddle horn, or something...don't have too much experience with NYC pimps myself, either!

Only one picture today while riding, going down a nearby dirt road. This is one of the few places where a horse can trot or canter without hurting his feet. It is also a place where we stick to the dirt road. I've tried walking off to the side as a human, but the prickly pear are just too thick. Bandit spent the first part of the ride constantly twisting his head left or right, although I caught it in between in this picture:










Coming back this way, we trotted & my youngest immediately protested. I guess her back is still sore and not up to trotting. So we walked the rest of the way.

*I think Bandit has graduated to being "skittish".*​ 
There was a time he'd explode sideways and take off thru someone's yard. That is spooky. But it isn't fair to him to call hm spooky any more. He was elevated, very aware, keeping his options open. The ground still had puddles of water, everything smelled different (even my human nose noticed)...but he wasn't spooky. Just elevated. I don't know what trotting in place is called in dressage, but we sort of did that in one spot, briefly. But I never felt like he might explode. A skittish horse is much nicer than a spooky horse! It has taken us a year, but I think I can now boast that my horse is skittish - "The word is thought to have come from the Scandinavian word skyt, meaning 'very lively, frivolous.'"

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/skittish

Full Definition of skittish

1: lively or frisky in action...

2: easily frightened : restive...

3: a: coy, bashful b: marked by extreme caution : wary...

Skittish | Definition of Skittish by Merriam-Webster

Skittish works for me. Beats spooky.​


----------



## Alhefner

Just a note on the rocks appearing. You're right that it is more that the smaller particles get below the rocks and THAT causes them to rise. If you ever notice gravel bars in a river, you'll see the top covered with pretty large rocks! What has happened is that the smaller things such as smaller rocks and grains of sand, have worked their way below those larger rocks and pushed them upward. When you start digging down, from the top with the big rocks, you see that the material gets smaller and finer the deeper you go.

I found that to be the case as I prospected in California and Nevada...


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## Bondre

bsms said:


> Folks around here say that rain "makes the rocks come to the surface". I suspect it is more a case of the surface lowering around the rocks, but it is an expressive description.


The regular passage of a herd of sheep has just the same effect. Their cleats erode all the 'flesh' off the land and leave the bare bones. 



bsms said:


> And I knew it would all look and smell different, and Bandit might be 'elevated' - kind of like the rocks!


I love this mental image of an elevated horse surrounded by levitating rocks. I think Dali would have done it justice. I will remember this one next time Macarena starts elevating ;-)



bsms said:


> There was a time he'd explode sideways and take off thru someone's yard. That is spooky. But it isn't fair to him to call hm spooky any more. He was elevated, very aware, keeping his options open. The ground still had puddles of water, everything smelled different (even my human nose noticed)...but he wasn't spooky. Just elevated. I don't know what trotting in place is called in dressage, but we sort of did that in one spot, briefly. But I never felt like he might explode. A skittish horse is much nicer than a spooky horse! It has taken us a year, but I think I can now boast that my horse is skittish


I like skittish too. Skittish is fun without being scary. I think you've just invented a succession of 's' words: scary ..... spooky ..... skittish ..... ? ..... staid. I'm missing a suitable word in the middle there - suggestions anyone?


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## bsms

Bondre said:


> ...Skittish is fun without being scary...


That captures the difference well. He was animated without being scary, because I never thought he was about to explode and take off anywhere. In fact, if something HAD gone wrong, I think he would have focused and settled immediately. You can be laughing and joking at a party, but if your kid gets hurt, it takes about 1/4 second to become all business.

He had been cooped up for a week and had energy to burn. So he burned a little off, indulged in some frivolous thoughts of Martians, or maybe a Dali painting come to life...and then relaxed. We only did 45 minutes (my daughter's back took a solid blow and she had ZERO complaints about making it a short ride). By the end, he was strolling. 

Even *staid* - "of settled or sedate character; not flighty or capricious". 

There was green grass growing beside the paved road as we came back, and he and Trooper both thought it looked mighty good. So we made multiple stops for grazing. A county dump truck being used for road repair a quarter mile away came blazing by, belching smoke, and Bandit and Trooper were both going "_Green grass! Mmmmm. Munch. Munch. Sigh. Chew, chew, chew. Ew, that got stuck on the bit! Ya ya ya - got it off. Nibble. Chew._" By that time, a big, clanking, belching truck just couldn't compare with soft, green grass. "_Nothing say I love you like food. I love you too...let me grab that clump before we go._"

And a short distance away, Cowboy, his BHF (Best Horsey Friend), was calling, so even moving on seemed right. A good day for a short ride! Or maybe a short ride on a good day. They blend together in a horse's mind. And mine.


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## phantomhorse13

bsms said:


> To be honest, all I really was doing was trying to keep from sliding off my slick saddle. It wasn't planned or thought out.
> 
> Had anyone taken a picture of me, they would have said my equitation sucked.


I don't think an oh sh!t moment is the time to judge eq.. other than did you manage to stay on. I personally think what your body does in that unplanned moment has a lot more to do with instinct and less to do with learned/taught behavior. 



A not-very-flattering moment of canter on a very reactive horse. While my eq would hardly win awards, it would be passable by most standards:











A few moments later, just after a bucking tantrum:











I am sure people would be happy to point out all kinds of things that are wrong. However, I stayed on the horse and was able to correct the behavior!

Same horse, but bolting instead of bucking:











But again, stayed on and made the correction.

Anybody who claims that having good eq means you are _never_ out of "proper" position has not ridden enough horses. For me, having good eq (or at least practical eq) means you will still be riding the horse during and after an unexpected move!


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## bsms

*Fear, Horses and Tolkien...and a congratulations to Golden Horse*

This is from the journal of Golden Horse. We've certainly had our differences, but I want to comment about fear and horses:

17 July 2016:



Golden Horse said:


> Now once again this is a complete nothing for most people, but yesterday was a big day for me, Trainer is away with the hunter jumpers at a show, so arranged to meet up with some other borders and ride. It was a beautiful afternoon, so we went to the outside arena, and just had a nice hour sharing some time together. Fergie and I did some nice work, and some nice relaxation, and I even managed to lope, both reins, and go large in the arena.
> 
> Yeah, no biggie right? Well it is to me, just a couple of weeks ago I was still to scared to try...


21 July 2016:



Golden Horse said:


> Every journey is series of steps that when you put them together make a journey....and todays step was riding 'outside', after my lesson I was about to jump off when coach asked if I wanted to ride her back to the barn...I couldn't think of a good reason why I shouldn't so my lesson buddy and I ride back to the barn, all of 1000 ft, at most. Why is that a big deal? well it is the first time I have ridden her out of an arena environment....and to me it WAS a big deal and a first step....


http://www.horseforum.com/member-jo...e-puff-diva-journey-658057/page6/#post9263833 

Golden Horse deserves a lot of respect for what she has done. I've never had the kind of injuries she has had, but I know what it is like to mount up with your guts twisting inside you.

This comes from one of my favorite books, written by a combat veteran:

"As he went forward it grew and grew, till there was no doubt about it. It was a red light steadily getting redder and redder. Also it was now undoubtedly hot in the tunnel. Wisps of vapor floated up and past him and he began to sweat. A sound, too, began to throb in his ears...This grew to the unmistakable gurgling noise of some vast animal snoring in its sleep down there in the red glow in front of him.

It was at this point that Bilbo stopped. Going on from there was the bravest thing he ever did. The tremendous things that happened afterward were as nothing compared to it. He fought the real battle in the tunnel alone, before he ever saw the vast danger that lay in wait. At any rate after a short halt go on he did..." - JRR Tolkien, The Hobbit, page 184

 This phrase has stuck with me since I first read the book when I was 13: "*He fought the real battle in the tunnel alone...*" I wonder if Tolkien was remembering World War One.

My oldest daughter was in the US Marine Corps. She has been shelled at while in Iraq. She also had one fall from a horse. She got off balance to the side while riding Trooper. Trooper actually tried to duck back under her, but it was too late and she fell - at slow speed, on to sand. She was a little bruised. She has never been on a horse since. She enjoys hiking out to Angels Landing in Zion Park, which I cannot do: 








​ 
But she has never tried to get on a horse again.

I only had one fall off of Mia. I think the pain in my lower back has finally gone away - from Jan 2009 through June of 2016. But I think it is gone!

That was my only fall, but Mia...she had a heart of gold, but she could get wound up and boil over. Afterward, for 30 minutes, she would be like a pot at 210 degrees. Not boiling over, but it didn't take much to get her there! Coming home sometimes, I'd wonder how we were going to GET home in one piece. She eventually got over most of her fears, and became a pretty reliable horse - but I just didn't have it in me to trust her properly. And of course, my lack of trust made things more difficult.

I spent 8 months debating if I should keep Bandit, but he has been wonderful for me. He could explode pretty hard when I first got him, but Mia had taught me to stay on, and he calmed down far better after his explosions. My trust in him probably lags when he has EARNED my trust by 3-4 months, but it is a wonderful feeling to be able to trust a horse and feel I have someone I can count on rather than someone who will make things much worse.

"_Yeah, no biggie right? Well it is to me..._"​ 
It *IS* huge! No one can come back from injuries without first facing a lot of 'the battles in the tunnel alone'. I don't know if GH ever did this - we aren't exactly best friends - but I know I'd often make excuses: too windy, too cold (in southern Arizona!), it was too...whatever! What it really meant was that I was turning back in the tunnel, before I ever saw Smaug. And often times, the hardest part of the ride was simply mounting up - getting on the horse when everything inside me didn't want to go on. It was always so much easier to look around and think it might rain, or that my horse was just too frisky, etc. *Any excuse to turn back in the tunnel*.

Golden Horse has given an utterly admirable example of how to claw back and conquer fear. Not all at once, and not easily - but by keeping on mounting up, and trying a little more, and refusing to entirely quit. "*At any rate after a short halt go on he did..*." 

But I also think her example is how we sometimes need to worked a scared horse. The big mistake I made with Mia was that I never really understood how afraid she was inside. I'd tell her what I'm sure GH heard and I heard often enough - "_There is nothing to be afraid of, so stop being silly. Just relax and go!_" But that was putting expectations on her that I could not fulfill myself. Some fears are rational and some are not entirely rational, but they are just as real regardless. Mia's fear of a shrub could be just as crippling to her as my fear of mounting up could be to me. And fear is only conquered in little steps, slowly overwriting the bad memories in our subconscious with good memories.

I pushed her too fast and too hard, refusing to respect her fear. And she was such a willing horse that she tried, really TRIED, but sometimes her inner fears won out. She had her flaws, but she was a very willing horse who gave me her best - and her best wasn't always good enough, because I didn't understand how hard she was trying and how willing she really was.

I'm told she is now a horse the kids ride. I'm glad for her. She deserves to be a "kids horse".

And I guess I needed a change in horses before I could learn trust as well. Happily, Bandit has followed one of Tom Roberts' training principles: "Quiet Persistence". Horses can train us, just like we train them.


----------



## knightrider

I just loved your post. "Like" is not good enough!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I like your concept of respecting their fear…..

We tend to:

Fear their fear.
Resent their fear.

Want to:

Eliminate their fear.
Control their fear.

…but we hardly ever just respect it.

Our Cowboy is a fearful horse.

Just this morning when we put out a new round bale, he was biting little pieces off of the outer edge when the outside layer (we remove the netting), fell away to the ground.

You got it, he spooked. Took off running about fifteen feet and stood there snorting at the bale, before eventually returning to eat again. It was like he was eating it and it suddenly decided to eat him back. His herd-mates stood their looking at him like he was nuts.

We have had him now for three years. The first year and a half he spent recuperating from an injury and some mysterious neurological symptoms the vet was never able to get to the bottom of. The next year we worked on building back into being ridden, developing basic muscles and de-spooking.

I spent so much time trying to get him to accept me, it wasn’t until I set my needs aside and essentially gave up on trying to get him to “like” me and “trust” me that we turned a corner. I wanted something from him for myself, rather than wanting something for him, for himself. Now he downright cuddles.

I saw a definition somewhere regarding the definition of abuse, it stuck with me though I am sure it is arguable.

Abuse: anything that is done to a horse that does not benefit the horse.

I found that very thought provoking.


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## tinyliny

this little story , regarding spookiness in horses, is told by Harry Whitney, the mentor of my trainer:


_A student complained that her sometimes-hot horse spooked at a rock near her barn. “The horse had walked by that rock every day for years, and this one day, she decides to spook at it!” Harry then tells us a story to illustrate his philosophy regarding the horse spooking at the rock._

_“You are at home, alone, at night. A storm comes up complete with thunder and bright lightning, and you are feeling a little scared—glad to be safe in your house. Suddenly, a loud clap of thunder makes you jump just as the power goes out. A second later the phone rings and you jump again, your heart pounding as you grab the phone. On the other end of the line is someone, someone breathing heavily. “Who is this?” you shout—really scared now! They hang up. There is a knock on the back door. Who is out there in this weather? Is it the caller? You decide to barricade yourself in your room. As you head to the door in the dark, suddenly you bang into a table. You SCREAM and jump back, terrified…_

_The story stops there. We all just sit a minute in silence, thinking about what Harry has just said. “It’s not about the table,” Harry tells us. “You are not afraid of the table. It’s about how you were feeling right before you ran into the table.”_


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## bsms

It is an interesting story, and Harry Whitney has influenced my thoughts about riding...sometimes many months after I read something he said. Maybe that will happen this time, too.

But my first reaction is that my horses don't spook due to inner tension building up and seeking an excuse to be released. It doesn't explain why, on trash day, Bandit can walk past 19 trash cans without a flicker, then get upset at #20. He used to get upset over pieces of wood in the desert. Unfortunately, there are pigs with two legs who insist on using the desert for a dumping ground. But a year on, he mostly ignores an odd piece of wood. So I think he believed 'strange wood' was a legitimate threat, just as some garbage cans still seem real to him.

Mia had an exceptional memory, even by horse standards. When she was being trained, the trainer took a week vacation. Mia went 9 days without a lesson. The next lesson had just started when the lady laughed. "That's Mia", she said, "9 days is like 9 seconds!" An excellent memory is a good thing when the horse has learned a helpful habit, but a terrible thing when the horse has decided something is scary.

Making it far worse, I tried to control her in a snaffle, and she knew how to resist a snaffle. So the emotional high of fighting the snaffle (even though she lost in the end) confirmed her fears. She associated 'the thing' with the fight and stress, so it became even more scary. That was why I needed a curb bit. She respected it, would not fight, and THEN could start to reason.

Bandit is just a more sensible horse. He can get excited as fast as Mia, but he calms fast too. The pot of water doesn't stay at 210 degrees with Bandit! And after watching him on a walk on a lead line about a week after I got him, I decided to take a very different approach with him than I took with Mia. Instead of being content to get him to go past on slack reins, good as that was, I'd take whatever time and do whatever needed to convince him that the scary thing was not scary. If it took us 10 minutes on a lead line, so be it.

It doesn't matter to me if we've passed 19 garbage cans. If #20 is scary to him, then we will work as needed until he is convinced that #20 was nothing to be scared of. If it scares HIM, then I'll honor it and work with him to find that "mutually acceptable compromise". I used to get frustrated with Mia, but that frustration just made her more excited and made the scary thing scary again.

She would get scared at a tree that suddenly broke out in blossoms. Why? I don't know, and I would get frustrated, and sometimes angry. I'd shout, "*That's STUPID!!!*" - and we would take 6 steps back in her training. It wasn't stupid to her, any more than my fears about mounting up and riding her would have made sense to her. Wasn't she a sweetheart? Wouldn't she do her best to keep us safe? How could I be scared? But Mia, with her equine patience, NEVER told me that I was stupid! She might sigh a long sigh, but she never started shouting, *"You're an idiot!!!*" - no matter the temptation!

My bargain with Bandit is, "Tell me you are scared. If you are, WE will deal with it together. *You are never alone*. If you are scared, I'll do whatever is needed to get you un-scared and show you that you are safe. If you will talk to me, you never have to deal with your fear alone..."

Horses are like gasoline. To get an explosion, it first needs to be contained. The explosion only comes when the pressure becomes greater than the container.

A gallon of gas, in the open on a driveway, just burns. Slack reins makes the container weaker, so the explosion is smaller. But if you refuse to push the horse into fear, then there is never a reason for an explosion - not once the horse understands you are on his side. And if he eventually realizes you've been right 235 times out of 235...then the path of safety and no fear lies in checking in with you, and doing what you say. 

For many horses and many riders, there are faster ways to eventually get to the same spot. But for me, this has been a very good way. But of course, I started Bandit with a base of knowledge and skill based on seven years with Mia. I started Mia with nothing but good intentions...:icon_rolleyes:


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## waresbear

If your horse's attention is somewhere else, there is always the chance they will spook at something. Lesson learned the hard way here. Sure they can look at stuff, snort at it, but jump and attempt to run, no, attention back to me please, I will help you get through the scary stuff, I am the leader, remember?


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## bsms

I guess what I'm saying is I had to EARN my "leadership" spot. For example, horses will often follow another horse past something. Bandit didn't care if Trooper and Cowboy went past something. As far as he is concerned, they are morons - lucky morons, maybe, but morons - not someone to follow.

My theory, which seems to be proving true, is that horses can learn trust the way humans do - by the other proving he has good judgment and knows what to do. To this day, Bandit doesn't give a rat's rear end about what Cowboy and Trooper think. But after a lot of work, he's checking in with me.

Cowboy and Trooper then follow us, because they trust Bandit and Bandit trusts me.

I think a lot of horses will accept dominant, and then the dominant one can demonstrate they are trustworthy, and thus they arrive at the same end in a shorter process. Clinton Anderson seems pretty freaky to me, but a lot of folks say he has helped them and his techniques have worked with their horses, so who am I to say otherwise? What works...works!

But Bandit had been ridden and trained the Clinton Anderson way, and was still willing to freak out and buck or spin or run sideways. So I had to establish a few boundaries: 

1) We do not spin. If you spin, you will keep spinning until you are facing ahead.

2) We do not run. Not sideways, not backwards, and we do not turn 180 and run. EVER. I will make your life suck if you run.

3) We do not buck. Bucking is rude. I can be rude too. Knock it off!

But within those boundaries, I could work something out. Maybe take more time. Maybe take a detour. Maybe trot past instead of walk. There were options, and there were "not options", spelled out in my 3 boundaries.

Time was often a good one. Bandit doesn't like standing still forever, so after a few minutes...he'd take one step. Then after a minute, another. Then two steps, then walk on past.

Detours were good too. It was amazing how ASKING for him to detour by 10-20 feet was enough for him to feel safe.

But I had to establish some dominance (my 3 rules would be enforced), and then honor his fear and show I could work with him.


----------



## waresbear

Sounds like good rules to me.


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## Bondre

knightrider said:


> I just loved your post.* "Like" is not good enough!


I* loved it too! In fact the last two paragraphs made my eyes water....



bsms said:


> The big mistake I made with Mia was that I never really understood how afraid she was inside. I'd tell her what I'm sure GH heard and I heard often enough - "_There is nothing to be afraid of, so stop being silly. Just relax and go!_" But that was putting expectations on her that I could not fulfill myself. Some fears are rational and some are not entirely rational, but they are just as real regardless. Mia's fear of a shrub could be just as crippling to her as my fear of mounting up could be to me. And fear is only conquered in little steps, slowly overwriting the bad memories in our subconscious with good memories.
> 
> I pushed her too fast and too hard, refusing to respect her fear. And she was such a willing horse that she tried, really TRIED, but sometimes her inner fears won out. She had her flaws, but she was a very willing horse who gave me her best - and her best wasn't always good enough, because I didn't understand how hard she was trying and how willing she really was.


I was going to write a reply yesterday morning but didn't have time - and it seems like Macarena got wind of my intentions because she gave me a refresher on the matter of fear when I rode her in the evening.

I very much agree with your opinion that we should learn to understand our horses' fears, respect them and work them through this in an understanding fashion. People who say you should just make them get on with it, or come to Jesus, or recommend tough love, perhaps have never experienced a truly scared horse - or I think they wouldn't recommend any of this. But there is SO MUCH advice along these tough lines, and so few people recommending a more empathic approach, that it is hard for riders that are inexperienced in such matters to know how best to deal with a scared horse. I know that I for one didn't know how to go about it and all the advice I found was to work them through it and not take any bull.

When Macarena first got seriously scared over the dirt bikes last year, it took me some time to come to terms with the extent and reality of her fear. At first I was like "come on,* we've been going out and about for months on these tracks, you can't be THAT scared all of a sudden. Nothing's changed after all, it was just a noisy bike".

But for her it was like the difference between the beginning of Jurassic Park when all the dinosaurs are safely contained, and the action later on when the T-rex is on the rampage. As far as she was concerned, a hungry T-rex had arrived in the neighbourhood - and to make things worse, her rider was totally oblivious to the fact, and was insisting on business as usual! One day when we heard it roaring in the distance, her very understandable reaction was to get back home FAST, while I was insisting that we did this at a walk. I'm not saying that I should have encouraged her to bolt back, because that clearly would have been worse; I managed to get us back home in one piece at a reasonably slow pace and her in a calmer frame of mind, so I think we did the best we could in the circumstances.*

An unseen fear is harder to deal with than a visible object. If our horse is scared of a pile of rocks or a plastic tarp, it's relatively simple to demonstrate that in fact it is an inoffensive object - but how do you do that with a noise? And above all, with a noise that doesn't always provoke the fear reaction? Our ears aren't the same as theirs (less sensitive to start with) and we have the benefit of knowledge so when we hear the distant roar of a motorbike, we mentally say "motorbike" and pay no further attention. We don't bother to analyse the sound (unless we're a bike freak lol) which can vary hugely from bike to bike, because we know what's making the noise. But your horse doesn't know about generics, neither with noises nor rocks nor with garbage cans, which is where they catch us out and we fail to understand their fear. One motorbike noise is scary and another isn't - but which is which, and why? To us the noises are all motorbikes. Horses are very specific in their fears, which is intelligent -* after all, why waste time being scared of ALL garbage cans when it's only the tenth garbage can that smells bad?? - but which makes it harder for us to comprehend just where the problem lies.

Anyway, back to Macarena. As those of you who have read my journal know, I tried getting tough with her over our initial T-rex problem, to no avail. She had rapidly got to the stage when she wouldn't leave the immediate surroundings of the barn - extreme barn sourness. Not surprising; after all, there was a T-rex out there waiting to snap us up. Fortunately I started to think and didn't pursue the tough approach because it certainly would have been catastrophic. We made progress through empathy, doing clicker training to reward any tiny try on her part. Gradually, VERY slowly, we have expanded our safe boundaries for going out alone. We haven't met a bike in ages which had undoubtedly helped.

Yesterday we went our furthest yet. This was a well-known route where we have ridden recently with Flamenca with no problems, but not on our own. She did really well and gave visible proof of trying hard for me despite her nerviness on one occasion. We stopped and relaxed briefly at our furthest point and I gave her a treat. On the way back I encouraged her to nibble the scattered clumps of wild alfalfa along the side of the track, to help make being relatively far from home positive for her. She did very well and mostly walked home on a mostly loose rein, until we came to a crossroads where three cars past on the other track. This upset her a bit. I have a maybe far-fetched theory that she doesn't like vehicles passing her close to dusk because she feels she's getting left behind. I have noticed this on many occasions with her, be it a bike, a car or a tractor, and always when dusk is approaching. She wants to be home and that vehicle is going home faster than her! and she wants to go with it. So she had more or less settled down again after the cars and home was in sight when I heard a rumble behind us and **** there was an approaching atv. It wasn't a noisy sporty atv but a working model, and the guy who rides it goes slowly and sensibly, but an atv none the less.

Now, this is where I don't know if I involuntarily contributed to her fear. We were in almost the exact same spot as the first dirtbike scare. I didn't want to send her into the same fields and have a repeat. On the other side of the track were more open fields with small broccoli plants - no good for a possible meltdown either - but further ahead was her favourite peach plantation. I urged her into a trot to get there before the atv closed on us. She was fine about the trot but she heard the atv behind us when we were getting close and started to flip. We got to the edge of the trees and I turned her to see it, which always helps. She was scared and explosive by then and did a small rear followed by a jump, one of her favourite stress moves, then ran back into a tree, and thought of bolting between the trees. I turned her to look at the atv again (which had almost stopped and was not making an offensive noise at all) and praised her and reassured her while she sidled and pranced. The atv crept past on the track and she gradually came out of her panic. We were helped by the surrounding presence of the peach trees. Her desire to stay and look for windfalls was even stronger than her desire to go home and hide from the T-rex - which had gone past meekly without a single roar after all, and was maybe only a harmless triceratops. 

The questions in my mind now are - did I scare her by my own fear of the situation? I was worried but not scared, I tried to transmit calmness and decision, but she is very sensitive and possibly she saw through my facade. What would have happened if I had just kept walking down the track and stopped her while the atv trundled past? Was this a positive experience for her? After all, it was only a small meltdown with no bad consequences, the vehicle left and she relaxed afterwards. Or was it an "I told to so! It's NOT SAFE out there!" moment for her? 

I guess I'll find out today when I ride her.


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## gottatrot

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> We tend to:
> 
> Fear their fear.
> Resent their fear.
> 
> Want to:
> 
> Eliminate their fear.
> Control their fear.
> 
> …but we hardly ever just respect it.


Yes, I found this idea thought provoking - that we for some reason have the right to be afraid whether our fears are rational or not. Yet our horses do not have that right, they are playing games or having one over on us. I read that on some thread, someone said since a horse was an Arab, if he spooked he was playing games with the rider and wasn't truly afraid.

So I'm wondering if this should be a new approach for teaching a fearful rider. "Get on, and stop playing games with me!" Perhaps we should get very firm and push them onto the horse, since they are just trying our patience for fun. Obviously I am joking here.

As with pain, fear of fear makes things more difficult for us to tolerate emotionally. It's my goal to only experience fear, and not to be afraid of fear beforehand. 

Many kudos to Golden Horse for facing her fear. Fear is a beastly thing, either for us or for horses. I think some are better equipped to deal with fear, but I believe all of us (and horses) can learn strategies to deal with it better, regardless of whether we tend to react more strongly or to take things more in stride.

What helps me with horses' fear is to imagine what they are seeing, and then to explain to them it is even more frightening than they believe. This is some sort of psychological game that distracts me entirely so I laugh, and when I laugh I find it difficult to be fearful as well. As Bondre's horse sees the T-rex lurking, mine have seen dragon's eyes peeking over the hill. 

In reality, they were a pair of large, round concrete pipes, but when I said "they're pipes," I found I was worried about my horse's over reaction. When I told the story of the monstrous dragon, hiding behind the hill with only his eyes visible peeking over, my horse's response seemed much more reasonable, in fact, the horse was bravely continuing by although rather stiffly. We were both so brave to continue on, and I explained that if the dragon sprang up we'd gallop as fast as we could to escape. Laughing, relaxing, my horse's reaction was reasonable and quite minimal.

Yesterday the lab we see every day spooked Amore terribly. She saw him appear twenty feet away, and then all her legs were going every which way and she was galloping and snorting on the end of the lead line. At first, I saw just a black dog. Amore looked again and panicked again. And then I saw how his eyes were glowing red in the sunset light and how he had crept out of the bushes and was now blocking our path with legs braced, and smoke was coming out of his nostrils. It was the Hound of the Baskervilles! I laughed and he transformed into a regular dog, and Amore looked again and became calm. 

They have fear, and it is legitimate. I have fear, and it also is legitimate. But fear is also a completely normal part of life. That may not help you, but it does help me a lot to think of the fears I have as normal stepping stones, part of working with horses. I don't want to be afraid of having fear, but to see fear as normal and to expect that I will have fear at times and have to overcome it. 

I like to dissect my fear, to take it apart and find out what it is I am truly afraid of. My horse gallops, I feel fear. Why do I have the fear? Is it because I am afraid of speed? Is it because I worry about falling off? Is it because I am afraid of injury? Is it because I am afraid the horse will get hurt? Am I afraid of harming someone else by running into them? Am I worried I won't be able to stop? 

I find that breaking down my fear into the true "why" helps me find a simple thing I can deal with. I might think at first I'm afraid the horse won't stop. But then breaking it down, I'm actually afraid if I don't control the speed, the horse will run into bad footing and fall. And then further, my true fear is not of myself falling, but of the horse harming herself. That may seem odd, but I often find that what I'm truly afraid of is not what I expected. Then my solution might be very easy, such as watching horses falling at the gallop on video, and seeing them get up and walk away again. The next time I feel fear, and I know why I have the fear, I might replay the video in my head to reassure myself that even if my horse fell, she would probably not be injured. 

What can be interesting about fear is how specific it often is. A person may do things far more dangerous, but still fear one certain thing. I've known people that rode many difficult horses, but were only afraid of one specific horse, with only a single, freak incident to cause that fear. I went through some phases of being afraid of riding Amore, all the while riding her and many other horses that were bigger, stronger and had worse behaviors than her. Someone who jumps horses over 4 ft jumps is terrified of walking on a horse alongside a rural road because a car might go by. It would not surprise me if a jockey was afraid of doing a sliding stop, or if a top eventer was afraid of running a horse around a barrel. 

So for me, it helps to understand that we all have fear, regardless of whether we see evidence of it in others. Those who appear very brave may have just had more battles with fear than others.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

My personal response to fear has always been research as a first step.

Fear is always about lack of control. Fear is believed to originate in our primitive brains. 

Knowledge, training, practice/experience brings more control. Sometimes it is only an illusion of control, but it makes us humans feel better.

In humans, specifically in those who have been in abusive situations where control has been taken from them, one of the biggest healing aspects is re-teaching them that they have control over their lives through free will; which has often been taken from them. 

There are those however, who are then afraid of having control and in an odd way, prefer the state of giving their control over to others because it is familiar (little confidence in the abilities of the self).

So I suppose the question then, as it relates to horses, are there some horses who find comfort (absence of fear) in giving their control to others and some who find that having control assuages their fear? This would very much indicate a need for very different approaches to training.


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## bsms

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> ...So I suppose the question then, as it relates to horses, are there some horses who find comfort (absence of fear) in giving their control to others and some who find that having control assuages their fear? This would very much indicate a need for very different approaches to training.


An excellent question. I think independent thinkers want their own control, but it is possible to teach them to consider "advice" from the rider.

In flying, there are emergency procedures called "boldface". That is how they are printed in the tech order. The boldface must be memorized and used. You might go 18 years without ever being in a spin, but if the jet spins, there isn't time to experiment. It can also be terrifying. In the F-111, for example, the only jets that ever recovered from a spin were test jets with special equipment!

But if you know what to do, your fear...lessens. I'm not saying there is no tension, but you have a release in action.

With a horse, we want them to learn one boldface procedure: 

"*When scared, do what your rider says*".​
The majority of horses are submissive, and content to learn the boldface because "OR ELSE!" Teaching "body control" in an arena works for them. 

For the independent thinkers, they have to learn, thru experience, that the boldface applies "BECAUSE IT WORKS!" I think Trooper and even Cowboy are in the first category. Mia & Bandit are in the second. Lilly, our other purebred Arabian, might have submitted to the first, but she would do better using the second.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

The other day during the evening feeding, we were cleaning the water troughs when Ghost started panicking. He was running along the fence whinnying, obviously distressed. He is separated from the rest when he eats because he gets a lot more food, eats slowly and the others will take his food.

Two mule deer does chased him off his food pans! The mule deer, is a small deer a bit larger than a large dog (nowhere near as large as a white tail) 

Ghost would not eat that night unless I was standing between him and the deer which had moved off to the back pasture to graze. He is a horse that feels he has no control and looks to his humans and the herd to “protect” him. This is in direct contrast to what I have seen in Oliver which is that he will either share with the deer, or chase them off. 

It makes me feel useful that Ghost looks to me for protection, that he thinks I am She-rah, princess of the universe who can do all, fix all, knows all. He’s a nice ego boost, but he also makes me sad.

Oliver on the other hand makes me happy. He doesn't need me to feel safe or to make decisions for him. He’s not afraid to investigate a new object or confront a threat. That last part is big. He is confrontational.

There is something inside of him that makes him very different from Ghost, Cowboy or Caspian. Not only will he meet a threat head on, he will attack it if it threatens him or the herd. He has little to no fear. 

My trainer said that Oliver will do anything for me no questions asked. So far, he has been right. He wanted to know how I did it because the horse makes it quite clear to horses and humans alike that he doesn't need a leader, he is an entity onto himself (yes, my horse is a snob)....honestly, I am still trying to figure it all out. He doesn't need me to make decisions, but he wants me to? Is it trust, respect or something more?


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## bsms

I posted this on the over 50 thread, but it really applies to Bandit, and fear, and the odd way humans and horses can interact:



bsms said:


> Here is how stupid fear can be.
> 
> I nearly didn't ride this morning, but decided even 15 minutes was better than none. Bandit and I went out alone. We rode about 30 minutes, and *I spent the first 20 minutes with one hand on the horn, just in case he started spinning*. I adored Mia, but she left a mark on me, inside.
> 
> How was Bandit? About a minute down the pavement, we both were surprised by a migrating swarm of bees. I ducked. Bandit flicked an ear, then merely walked faster to get us past. Our exterminator says the worst thing you can do around a bee swarm is make any sudden movements. Bandit handled it perfectly. The bees, happily, paid no attention to the guy with sweat already rolling down his face.
> 
> Even in the face of that evidence, I remained tense. Bandit wasn't. I stopped him a couple of times so he could grab some grass. Unlike yesterday, he buried his face and just munched as fast as he could. He literally acted more relaxed and 'safer' when I was riding him alone than when I walked him with the other horses yesterday. I don't know how any horse could have behaved better with me today than Bandit.
> 
> But I still held the horn with one hand for 20 minutes, waiting for a violent spin that Bandit wasn't even imagining doing.
> 
> It's stupid! It's just darn embarrassing! I've been shot at in combat without even getting a faster pulse, but my guts could twist themselves today while Bandit...was superb.
> 
> I'm beginning to notice that Bandit rises to the challenge. If it is a steep slope out of a wash (not too high, we're working with shallow washes for now), I can stop him and let him take a look. When his back shifts and his ears click forward, he's ready to take responsibility. All I need to do is stay out of his way.
> 
> If I'm feeling completely calm, he acts skittish. It would be an insult to him to suggest he acts spooky. He used to. Not now. But if I'm totally calm and relaxed, he feels free to spend the first 30 minutes acting as if he is wandering around a Salvador Dali painting [thanks, Bondre! - great mental image!]. Unless another horse spooks some, in which case he is back to business.
> 
> But today, when I was tense and uncomfortable, he was Mr Calm. I really wasn't up for skittish, even - and he rose to the occasion. I finally managed to relax a little, got two hands on the reins and we trotted a few laps around our little arena. Then we called it quits. I had seen Smaug and not retreated in the tunnel, to use a Hobbit reference. And Bandit seems likely to become a truly remarkable trail horse.
> 
> So I let him munch grass for 15 minutes while the sweat continued to soak my shirt. Hot & humid...but my mongrel horse earned every mouthful!


My wife and I decided it was too hot to ride yesterday, so my wife took Cowboy & Trooper and I took Bandit and we spent an hour walking the 0.75 miles around the block, letting them eat. Trooper and Cowboy would bury their face and eat. Bandit would grab some grass, then raise his head and stay alert while chewing. For the number 3 guy, he seems to accept responsibility for the others, and they are content to let him.

Today, I was twisting inside...and Bandit came thru for me. I was really tense. That is supposed to make horses really tense. But it was as if Bandit was compensating for me. Call me stupid if you wish, but I believe Bandit knew I was having a bad day and so he took care of me. That is what friends are for, isn't it?

But if horses read and believed what is said about them on the Internet, he'd have been a spook-monster today.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

bsms said:


> But if horses read and believed what is said about them on the Internet, he'd have been a spook-monster today.


Some horses are like that, some horses are not. 

Some will take care of their riders, like my Ghost (which is why I bought him after my daughter got trampled by a lesson horse and she almost quit), others expect you to take care of yourself, like Oliver though, even he has his compassionate moments! 

Sounds like Bandit is a bit of a "filler" horse. Good for him and for you! Congratulations!


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## bsms

This has been really bothering me for a while now. I'll pose the question here, and maybe consider posting it in a different section of HF depending on the answers I get:

Horse sense is a term that goes back to the 1800s. It means:
.

Good sense and shrewdness : horse sense needed before taking on something like that (1832+) - The Dictionary of American Slang,
 
Historical Examples
 
He was deficient in sound judgment, or what is sometimes called " horse sense." - Scientific American Supplement, No. 841, February 13, 1892 
 
"There is a streak of horse sense in the Wimbourne blood that has been the saving of all of us," she said." - The Whirligig of Time, Wayland Wells Williams
 
"But horse sense made me pass it by and stay on my own home diamond." - The Gorgeous Girl, Nalbro Bartley
 
"Trust Rob, Tubby; give him credit for horse sense, won't you?" - The Boy Scouts Under Fire in Mexico, Lieut. Howard Payson
 
Sound practical sense, as in "_She's got too much horse sense to believe his story_". The exact allusion in this term, which dates from the mid-1800s, is disputed, since some regard horses as rather stupid. However, they tended to be viewed more positively in the American West, where the term originated. - The American Heritage Idioms Dictionary
 
Horse sense | Define Horse sense at Dictionary.com
​.

So in the 1800s, at least in the American West, to have "horse sense" was a very admirable quality! If I had to define it, based on my reading and how I've heard people use it, I'd say it was the ability to be fooled briefly, but to eventually see the truth in the matter and act accordingly. It means to be practical, calm, not to panic but to know inside what the right thing to do is, even though you have little or no schooling.

Now then, reading on Horseforum.com and other websites, and watching Clinton Anderson videos and looking at the training advice in articles:

*Who in modern times would associate horse sense with practical, calm and level-headed?*​ 
Based on how horses are said to behave, shouldn't "horse sense" mean:

Flighty. Stupid. Easily fooled. Reactive. Maybe even vindictive. Seeking to climb to the top over others. Constantly seeking to advance to the detriment of others. Incapable of making any worthwhile decision.

Horses are constantly testing us. Seeking to find any weakness they can exploit. Spooking for no reason. Deserving of neither trust nor respect. "_1000 lbs of muscle with a 1/2 lb of brain_", as one person told me once.

Why is it, in the 1800s, when people supposedly knew so little about horses, horse sense meant level-headed, calm & able to see the truth? Why is it in the Enlightened 21st Century, horses are viewed as stupid, near mindless beings needing man to make every decision?

I have some ideas, but they are not very settled. Bandit came here with a Clinton Anderson approach to training. His rider obviously did some really good things because Bandit came here adoring humans, but he had a hard time thinking. He didn't WANT to make choices. It was like that old Barbie Doll thing where Barbie said "Math is hard!" - except for Bandit, it was "Choices are hard!"

Yet I'm starting to believe he has a lot of "horse sense".

So I pose the question, 

*"When did horse sense stop meaning practical, sensible and even shrewd, and instead mean flighty and even vindictive?"*​
Or am I imaging this?


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## Alhefner

I don't think you are imagining anything but, the change came as horses started transitioning from "utilitarian" to "pleasure" animals.

In those times of old, horses were treated much differently! They were "broke" and put to use and stayed "in use" in whatever manner the owner needed. As a means of transportation, the rider often relied upon the horses ability to see things long before the ride would ever notice them. thus, "horse sense".

Today, the vast majority of horses are strictly pleasure animals that get used/ridden maybe once a month, if that. They do not get the constant interaction that horses got back in the old times at all with the exception of working horses on ranches and such. They simply to do not get the CHANCE to develop that "horse sense". go to a working ranch and you'll find that the horses they use regularly DO have that level headed horse sense.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I think of "horse sense" in a different way entirely. 

If you say someone has horse sense, to me it means they understand horses, they have a feel for working with them, selecting a good horse etc.

What you are describing as "horse sense" from way back when, is what we call "common sense" today.


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## Alhefner

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> What you are describing as "horse sense" from way back when, is what we call "common sense" today.


Which is no longer "common"....


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Alhefner said:


> Which is no longer "common"....


Unfortunately, no it isn't.


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## bsms

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> ...What you are describing as "horse sense" from way back when, is what we call "common sense" today.


True. But given what I see written on the Internet and some books, and what I see in training videos, who would now feel complimented if told, "You're as sensible as a horse!"?

Why are horses generally viewed now as flighty and/or stupid, but in the Old West were viewed as level-headed and practical?


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## gottatrot

> _*BSMS*_
> Why are horses generally viewed now as flighty and/or stupid, but in the Old West were viewed as level-headed and practical?


It's almost like people are suspecting horses of things they feel themselves...something I've seen becoming much more common is that suspicion of horses being sneaky or vindictive, looking for ways to get back at us or to get around what we ask. I've heard a friend talk about her horse plotting at night about ways to frustrate her.

I wholeheartedly believe that horses are "team" and "together" creatures, much more than most we are around. Horses do have good sense. If they don't do something we ask, it's either because they don't understand what we are asking, or because they think there is something more important that overrides what we ask. But unlike most people and other animals, if they do understand us and nothing more important is getting in the way, they will actually do what we ask even if it means working very hard and experiencing some discomfort along the way. Wouldn't it be nice if we had more friends like this?



> Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. _W.C. Fields_


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

bsms said:


> True. But given what I see written on the Internet and some books, and what I see in training videos, who would now feel complimented if told, "You're as sensible as a horse!"?
> 
> Why are horses generally viewed now as flighty and/or stupid, but in the Old West were viewed as level-headed and practical?



I don't know that they are seen as stupid and flighty. 

The flighty part can be attributed to our litigious society, even here in Texas where we have a lot of protections in place for equestrian professionals and owners, if you misrepresent the nature of an animal though, such as saying your dog doesn't bite and then they bite someone (different from saying your dog has never bitten anyone), you become liable; as a for instance. 

Our home is next door to a prayer/meditation center. We get a variety of visitors who wander over to our horses. Usually I make them leave. One lady though, took the effort to walk the mile to the house, up the hill in the heat to ask permission to be with the horses. She said they bring peace to her soul like nothing else. I allow her to be with them.

She is now a full time volunteer at the prayer center. She knows nothing about horses. I set down rules for her. She cannot go into the paddocks/pasture with them unless I am with her. She cannot feed them anything, unless she asks me first. 

I warned her they can bite (we have an 16 month old colt as a boarder), kick, move their heads around quickly, rear, paw, take off suddenly at a noise or a rustling of a bush....ran the gamut. 

By the end she was probably thinking these are vicious unpredictable beasts. Is that who my horses are? No, not to someone who knows horses. 

She, however, as a nu-be, needed to know the dangers as much for my own protection as for hers. 

There are so many people new to horses out there, I wonder how much of the perception you are picking up on is directed at the new horse owners who are the primary audience of many "how to" books/dvds/websites?


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## egrogan

bsms said:


> I sometimes complain about riding for 10 minutes and not being able to find a spot to drop into a wash. Makes me wonder how the explorers felt when they came to places like these:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
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> There you are, just riding your horse along, feeling like you are making good time, and then: "Oops! Looks like we may need to detour...for the next 3 days... :eek_color: ...":


I've been watching a South African TV show called "The Ride," where a couple of guys recreate historic long distance rides. They've done three now:
TV Shows - The Ride
(I am watching the series on a new Dish Channel called "Ride TV," which is a horse-oriented channel, but not sure if there's a way to watch online.)

It's really quite fascinating to watch...even with modern GPS technology and a support team following them, they have still run into problems where their route ends up being impassible and they lose considerable time having to double back.


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## egrogan

^^PS, I didn't realize how far behind I was in your journal, and realize my post sort of interrupted an ongoing discussion. Sorry about the detour!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

The “stupid” part comes from pop science.

We’ve all heard how size matters when it comes to intelligence. The ratio of the size/weight of the animal vs the size of the brain.
That is not entirely true.

It is actually the surface area of the brain that determines intelligence.

The Gyri and Sulci of the brain (folds) add surface area.

If you were to take the human cortex (surface of the brain) and stretch it flat it would measure about two and a half meters. So even though a brain can be quite compact, the actual surface area can be much larger due to the folds.

The cortex is what contains neurons. Neurons are what communicate information within the brain. There are many different kinds of neurons and the ratios possessed of different types in each animal/person varies.

The long and short of it is, the more of a certain types of neurons you have in a brain the smarter you are (assuming you actually use them). Therefore, the more surface area you have in a brain, the higher the intelligence of the organism is believed to be.

As size goes, Neanderthals had much larger cranial cavities, indicating larger brains than humans. Still here we are and Neanderthals are nowhere to be found.

Here is a horse brain:










Here is a dog brain:










Yes the dog brain is bigger, but note the difference in the number of folds that each possesses. Also note the proportion of the cerebellum(the part to the back) to the brain over all, as well as the numbers of folds there. The depth of the folds also matters as does the uniformity of the folds over the different areas of the brain. Where the dog brain has some areas that are nearly smooth, the horse brain has folds throughout.

There is also the old adage that the two hemispheres of a horse's brain are not connected, which is false. They are connected just not as obviously as in humans.


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## bsms

I think I largely agree with Alhefner, although that then raises the question, "Is part of the problem HOW we train a horse?"



Alhefner said:


> ...Today, the vast majority of horses are strictly pleasure animals that get used/ridden maybe once a month, if that. They do not get the constant interaction that horses got back in the old times at all with the exception of working horses on ranches and such. *They simply to do not get the CHANCE to develop that "horse sense"*. go to a working ranch and you'll find that the horses they use regularly DO have that level headed horse sense.


 - Boldface mine, because it raises the training issue.

On another forum, a woman who participates on this forum questioned people who differentiated between riding for effect and riding for show, arguing that riding for show WAS riding for effect. I argued that the 'rules of equitation' were based on showing, not effect, and used "toes front" as an example. After all, many great riders and many disciplines - polo, jumping, cutting - reject the idea of toes needing to be straight forward. I was told I needed riding instruction, because "toes front" was critical to a secure seat.

I haven't finished participating on that thread, or maybe I have. If you really want people to **** on you, suggest online that dressage is NOT the equivalent of "good riding"! But it isn't only "equitation" that suffers from "riding for show". Far worse, I think THE HORSE'S MIND suffers from show riding. After all, in a dressage competition, it is impossible for the horse to understand that he should start an extended trot at the letter "E". And at the higher levels, the result is a rider who is giving cues with the spur ever single stride. Watch the video below, and in particular, ask yourself, "Does the rider EVER get the chance to put his toes straight ahead, or does he perform almost entirely with toes out because he is directing the horse EVERY SINGLE STRIDE?






OTOH, it is nice to see that even a dressage rider can ride with his toes out, since he's so busy with his spurs. Well, maybe not. But there is certainly no way to ride a horse like that via letting the horse use judgment. Dressage is FOUNDED on the idea that *Man is God to the Horse* - that man provides the mind, and the horse is just a body. Thus we have show riders selling videos on "Body Control" - because when you ride in the arena, pretty much none of it CAN make sense to a horse! Most, including Mia, are willing enough to canter or trot or turn because it pleases the rider and the horse loves "TEAM". But the timing and just how fast they turn, or do a lead change, is solely done for the rider's pleasure. It doesn't make sense to the horse and cannot, other than in response to a request from the rider!

I don't think I'll ever forget the description of the "circle of energy" where it started with the rider's leg creating impulsion. Really? The RIDER's leg creates impulsion? When the rider's leg doesn't even touch the ground? It is the HORSE's leg that MUST create impulsion. But dressage and many other show riders get in the habit of thinking they control the horse's body, so much so that they speak of creating impulsion with THEIR leg, because what the horse wants or thinks is irrelevant.

And in a show, that is true. I think it HAS to be that way in a show.

Outside the arena is where one trains a horse's mind. It is there that a horse can exercise judgment. A horse who stopped suddenly in a show because it smelled something that might be a predator is a darn bad horse! But if my horse balks at entering a wash, and then I see some javelina scooting out the other way, my horse has prevented a possible conflict and fight - good horse!

When horses were used for transportation, horses could learn to use sense. Think of the scene in Black Beauty, when the horse is worried about crossing a bridge because it heard the creaking and realized something was wrong. Or I can think of a couple of weeks ago, when Bandit had half the trail washed away, so he was crowding one side and I had to raise my leg level with his back because there wasn't room for it to clear the cactus at his side. I held the horn in case his rump hit the cactus and he reacted, but he was watching the cactus too - and he in fact walked calmly by, carefully balancing to stay out of the gully yet not hit the cactus (cholla, too - very nasty stuff!).

Bandit was trained by a guy who followed Clinton Anderson. This is a video on how CA teaches a horse to not spook:






I'll admit it: I hated the video. '_If the horse is scared or nervous, move his feet! Show him you are the boss. Make him work hard. Make the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard, go get after him and don't allow him to think!_' - my paraphrase, and _I'll admit I may be acting very unfairly to Mr Anderson_. Bandit's previous rider did a lot of good for Bandit, in the sense that Bandit came here adoring humans. So following CA wasn't a total loss, and Bandit couldn't have resented it too severely. 

But Bandit would only obey until he couldn't, and then explode. His previous rider was happy about that, since it showed Bandit had a lot of spunk. I was not happy because I don't like spinning around and I don't like going 100 yards off the road on a horse going sideways - and we did some of that. He even bucked another rider hard enough to put the guy on the wrong side of the saddle horn. What CA teaches is what most of the NH types I see teach, and its rooted in their background of starting a lot of horses every year. Get as much done in 30 days as you can, then sell the horse. And those are the people - Parelli, Anderson and others - whom we look to for lessons in training. Because they have started a LOT of horses with reasonable success.

But is that the BEST way to train your own horse? If you don't have experience with 200 horses, aren't really good at sticking on a scared horse, or just want a horse you can trust, a thinking horse...is that the best way?

Is it possible to teach a horse good judgment? Within limits - breeding has its effect, and some horses will always be more worried and more reactive - can you teach a horse to think on its own, and to look to you for 'good advice' when it is confused?


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## bsms

egrogan said:


> ^^PS, I didn't realize how far behind I was in your journal, and realize my post sort of interrupted an ongoing discussion. Sorry about the detour!


Not a problem! Part of the joy of the journal threads is that they are like getting together for lunch with old friends and talking about horses and life! Detours happen, and I'll look up the show you mentioned - sounds interesting.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I do believe a horse can be re-trained to think.

If you imagine the pathways of the brain as a dirt road….the more you travel down the same places in the road, the deeper the ruts become. Eventually if you travel down that road enough times (especially in bad weather/stressful situations) the ruts become so deep that even if you wanted to, you could not turn off that road and onto a different path without hanging up on the undercarriage.

In the brain, this is called entrenchment. The neurons follow the same path of thought, and it becomes harder and harder to veer off into another direction. The older a horse is, the more training they have had, the deeper they are already entrenched.

That is why I believe that it is so important, if you want a thinking horse, to give a horse as much variety in training as possible as well as exposing them to many different things.

Arena, trail, obstacle courses, games, jumping, dressage….you don’t have to get deep into any one thing, but let their brains explore those other pathways so that they don’t become so deeply entrenched that it becomes impossible for their brain to take another path…..


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## Alhefner

bsms said:


> Is it possible to teach a horse good judgment? Within limits - breeding has its effect, and some horses will always be more worried and more reactive - can you teach a horse to think on its own, and to look to you for 'good advice' when it is confused?


I think so! That's what I'm trying to develop in Barney. The method I'm using is a mix of Anderson and Trocha but boils down to making the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard. So, when Barney is spooking at something and not even investigating it, I make the spook into real work until Barney decides to start investigating...THEN, I leave him alone! I let him find out on his own that the "scary thing/place/sound/smell" wasn't a monster after all.


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## bsms

Although people may not believe it, I think a good rider can get their horse enthusiastic about dressage. It is that "together" thing - when the horse starts to enjoy something because you enjoy it.

The cavalry and Littauer both admitted, for jumping, that a very good rider on a very good horse could get a better performance by guiding the horse. But the average rider, they taught, would get the best results by teaching the horse to jump and then staying out of the horse's way. 

There is nothing wrong with riding in an arena, but it is important to remember the horse's mind. And this remains a classic description of polo:

-------------------------------------------------------------------

[After Lutyens breaks his shoulder]: The Maltese Cat had put his nose into the front of Lutyens’ shirt, and was trying to say how sorry he was.

‘He knows,’ said Lutyens, proudly. ‘The beggar knows. I’ve played him without a bridle before now — for fun.’

‘It’s no fun now,’ said Powell. ‘But we haven’t a decent substitute.’

‘No, said Lutyens. ‘It’s the last quarter, and we’ve got to make our goal and win. I’ll trust the Cat.’

*‘If you fall this time you’ll suffer a little,’ said Macnamara.*

*‘I’ll trust the Cat,’ said Lutyens.

‘You hear that?’ said the Maltese Cat proudly to the others. ‘It’s worth while playing polo for ten years to have that said of you.* Now then, my sons, come along. We’ll kick up a little bit, just to show the Archangels this team haven’t suffered.’...

...It takes a very good man to stand up to the rush of seven crazy ponies in the last quarter of a cup game, when men are riding with their necks for sale, and the ponies are delirious. The Archangels’ back missed his stroke, and pulled aside just in time to let the rush go by. Bamboo and Who’s Who shortened stride to give the Maltese Cat room, and Lutyens got the goal with a clean, smooth, smacking stroke that was heard all over the field. But there was no stopping the ponies. They poured through the goal-posts in one mixed mob, winners and losers together, for the pace had been terrific. The Maltese Cat knew by experience what would happen, and, to save Lutyens, turned to the right with one last effort that strained a back-sinew beyond hope of repair. As he did so he heard the right-hand goal-post crack as a pony cannoned into it, crack, splinter, and fall like a mast. It had been sawed three parts through in case of accidents, but it upset the pony nevertheless, and he blundered into another, who blundered into the left-hand post, and then there was confusion and dust and wood...

...Besides all these things and many more, there was a Commander-in-Chief, and an Inspector-General of Cavalry, and the principal veterinary officer in all India, standing on the top of a regimental coach, yelling like school-boys; and brigadiers and colonels and commissioners, and hundreds of pretty ladies joined the chorus. But the Maltese Cat stood with his head down, wondering how many legs were left to him; and Lutyens watched the men and ponies pick themselves out of the wreck of the two goal-posts, and he patted the Cat very tenderly.

‘I say,’ said the captain of the Archangels, _spitting a pebble out of his mouth_, ‘will you take three thousand for that pony-as he stands?’

‘No, thank you. I’ve an idea he’s saved my life,’ said Lutyens, getting off and lying down at full length...

...‘Hurrah! Bring him in,’ said the Archangels; and his sais, who was very happy indeed, patted the Maltese Cat on the flank, and he limped in to the blaze of light and the glittering uniforms, looking for Lutyens. He was used to messes, and men’s bedrooms, and places where ponies are not usually encouraged, and in his youth had jumped on and off a mess-table for a bet. So he behaved himself very politely, and ate bread dipped in salt, and was petted all round the table, moving gingerly; and they drank his health, because he had done more to win the Cup than any man or horse on the ground.

That was glory and honour enough for the rest of his days, and the Maltese Cat did not complain much when his veterinary surgeon said that he would be no good for polo any more. When Lutyens married, his wife did not allow him to play, so he was forced to be an umpire; and his pony on these occasions was a flea-bitten gray with a neat polo-tail, lame all round, but desperately quick on his feet, and, as everybody knew, Past Pluperfect Prestissimo Player of the Game.

https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/k/kipling/rudyard/days/chapter9.html


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## bsms

Alhefner, I liked your post for the bolded parts:

"So, when Barney is spooking at something *and not even investigating it*, I make the spook into real work *until Barney decides to start investigating*...THEN, I leave him alone!"

That may be what Clinton Anderson wants people to do and I just missed it. I fully agree with getting a horse to investigate and not just run away. But too often, I've been told to just "move her feet" and "make her work", and I think that is how Bandit was taught - and that is punishing a horse for being scared, and very unfair IMHO.

Teaching a horse "We don't run away. We can figure this out. Think, and I'll help you." is very different from punishing a horse for being scared.


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## bsms

Since I want to be honest and don't want to pretend it is all unicorn farts and snuggles, here is how today went...

I didn't try to ride him. With all the rain we've had, there were areas that look and smell very different from normal, and I wanted to take him there by himself. But with rain threatening and with my suspicion that things might not be peachy keen all the way, I chose to lead him on a lead line (my 9' long Parelli yacht rope rein - who says I don't like Parelli? It is a good set of reins for the price, IMHO).

Started off good. My neighbor was bring out a flapping plastic 50 lb dog food bag to add to her garbage on garbage day. She likes horses and didn't mind my using it as a training opportunity. After 20 seconds of hesitation, Bandit was fine. He was fine for a mile or so, then we hit an area we don't go often. Some open garbage cans by the side of the road. Lots of mud. One guy trains his horses for roping, and he had some cattle there. Had I been on his back, I don't think I could have 'pushed' Bandit thru. Leading was tough enough.

The community water tank's pump kicked in. Oh my! We had an argument about stay or run, and we stayed. So then I took him into the largest wash within a couple miles of us. Oh my again! In his defense, I was shocked at how much it had changed after the last week of rain. 

We reached a spot that used to be level, but now has a lower side and a higher side with 18" of wet sand piled on the west. Going across that, Bandit decided he had enough, and nipped at my sleeve. No, not in a friendly way.

*I looked at him, and he looked at me, and I think he saw the thunderclouds in my eyes.*​ 
I have few rules, but those rules are pretty firm. It was time for some chili:








​ 
He got to do a 10' diameter circle, with me screaming like a banshee. My goal was to have Clinton Anderson, if he saw me, tell me to tone it down! Or report me for abuse. If Google Maps took a picture of us from space, I wanted folks who saw the picture to know I was ****ed.

After the circling, a straight line back, plowing thru the sand and rock with me in his face.

Then I stopped. "_If you have a problem, boy, we can start Round #2_" He looked like he didn't have a problem any more, so we resumed our walk. About 50 yards ahead, there was a place I could lead him out of the wash and back on a path he knew well.

With his attitude somewhat adjusted, I walked him along some muddy areas and in some narrow spots. He was raised in a wide open area, and he doesn't like narrow & confining places. Oh well. I still had some resentment in me.

He had to deal with a large garbage truck going by, belching smoke, but he handled it better than I expected. Back at our little arena, I let him graze. Then I led him back to the corral. Except he preferred to continue eating. REALLY preferred!

So he got dished up a second helping of chili. Then I led him back to the corral, no questions asked. 1.5 hours of walking. I was soaked with sweat. I'm pretty sure Bandit doesn't adore me right now, but he'll get over it.

But I don't want anyone to think I believe you teach a horse by just being nice and understanding. Sometimes THEY need to understand. It helps if one keeps just a few rules - but keep them clear and keep them enforced. I don't believe in round-penning for respect, but I do. Sometimes. If that makes any sense. Even without a round pen. But sometimes you do need to go toe to hoof with the horse.

I prefer to train with unicorn farts, but sometimes the chili gets pulled out instead. Oh well. If I want a thinking horse, he may sometimes think things that will lead to conflict. Good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgment. No learning without it! But it was a good day to be on the ground and not in the saddle. Now its time for some Motrin...


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## gottatrot

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> The “stupid” part comes from pop science.
> We’ve all heard how size matters when it comes to intelligence. The ratio of the size/weight of the animal vs the size of the brain.
> That is not entirely true.
> It is actually the surface area of the brain that determines intelligence.


I think much of this is true, but I also think we still have so much to learn about brains and how they work. Scientists are continually discovering that this animal or that animal is surprisingly much more intelligent than once thought. What was once said as fact (such as certain features are required to have certain types of thought processes), keeps getting disproven as we learn more. 

For instance, they have learned that slugs use the same chemical processes in their brains to store information as dogs or cats. Slugs think and learn. This does not surprise me much, since we had a pack of slugs that would come in for dinner at a certain time each night to eat whatever was left in the dog bowl on the deck. To me it was apparent they were following a schedule based on what they'd learned about when food was available.

We first thought intelligence was based on size, now we're thinking surface area, but we don't completely know how all the chemical processes affect intelligence, etc. So we may find out at some point that there are many more factors determining intelligence. 



> Although people may not believe it, I think a good rider can get their horse enthusiastic about dressage. It is that "together" thing - when the horse starts to enjoy something because you enjoy it.


I can believe there are some horses that enjoy a strict and rule filled life. I've not yet met one, but this dog I have right now has the type of personality where he would love dressage and having every step controlled and cued by the rider. If I don't make enough rules, he makes his own and also points out when the cat is not following the rules. With this type of personality it is part of his happiness to have rules and follow them strictly. I believe this is a tendency with his breed, and a horse bred in a similar way would probably enjoy dressage very much. 

It was very interesting to read through this article with interviews from the riders after the cross country phase of the Olympics:
Riders React To The Rio Olympic Cross-Country | The Chronicle of the Horse
The riders seem to have a better understanding of their horses and also the limitations of training than many riders. They talk about the horses being "brave," and "honest," and about how generous they are. They also talk about things like how they suddenly just "have no steering." What? Didn't you teach the horse body control in the arena first? You mean you can just find yourself unable to steer your horse that can perform world class dressage and jump a 4 star course? They seem to know that if the horse does not have the right mood and brave feelings that day, there's no chance they can just make the horse perform.
Good lessons for the rest of us.


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## waresbear

bsms said:


> Alhefner, I liked your post for the bolded parts:
> 
> "So, when Barney is spooking at something *and not even investigating it*, I make the spook into real work *until Barney decides to start investigating*...THEN, I leave him alone!"
> 
> That may be what Clinton Anderson wants people to do and I just missed it. I fully agree with getting a horse to investigate and not just run away. But too often, I've been told to just "move her feet" and "make her work", and I think that is how Bandit was taught - and that is punishing a horse for being scared, and very unfair IMHO.
> 
> Teaching a horse "We don't run away. We can figure this out. Think, and I'll help you." is very different from punishing a horse for being scared.


Spooking can be a form of evasion at times, however it's because they are distracted, either by their rider's lack of guidance, pain or discomfort. I recently found out one of my horses was developing huge spooks where there was minimal spooking before. With a few other symptoms, I mentioned to the vet when I had the horses there for spring maintenance. He did some pressure points and gave me some tubes of omeprazole and a list of aftercare treatments I could try. Within days, the huge spooks were gone. He still hates the corner of the arena where the tree fell, but when he's working and his ear tilted back towards me, he is not going to shy at silly things.
Then there is Otis, he's pretty rock solid but he can spook too, they all can. I know one of his former owners, a youth competitor used to punish him harshly if he spooked. Then my daughter owned him, his spooking was becoming worse, so she took him to a RCMP de-spook clinic where she learned a few techniques to control the reactions. Then I acquired the noble steed. I took him to fall fair show, outdoor arena where at the one end was a dumpster for manure from the show barns. During the first class, a tractor with it's bucket raised dumps a load in there. All the horses in the arena go nuts, Otis trembled, I put my hand on the side of his neck and said "Easy". He was fine, then I had to negotiate around the freaked horses, fortunately the announcer called "halt" and they let some horse & rider combos out as it was dangerous. Needless to say, we won that class, hands down.
I decided to do my own spook clinic with Indy, using umbrellas, flags, tarps, pinwheels, anything that he used to find scary. I found if I focus his attention to the task at hand and not the scary object, he is fine. Reassure, calm and carry on seems to work on the trail as well, even when crazy grouse jump out at you.


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## Zexious

Sounds like you nipped that in the bud! <3


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## bsms

From the Rio article:

_"Watching those first few horses you can see it’s asking questions all the way and a lot of them weren’t coming up with the answers.”_

_ "He’s so brave and honest, he just does it."_

_ "For the horse it was question after question after question. You get through one tough jump and then you come onto another tough jump and I’m so thankful I was on an old racehorse from Kentucky because he kept fighting the whole way home."_

_ "Then honestly she dug down and she gave it her all. I couldn’t have been more proud of A Little Romance today."_

_ “Yeah, my horse is a star! She’s a cross-country machine and tries her heart out. I just have to steer her and she’s does it for me, so what a star.”_

_ "“She’s fine. By the time I got back to the vet box she was jigging and trying to bite me.That’s her usual self. She’s a tough mare. I think she was more just winded. The mares, they are so stinking smart."_
​ They are riding at a 99 out of 100, and I ride at maybe a 3 out of 100. But just as a 7:30 mile may need everything this 58 year old has going down a desert path one afternoon, I think we need to judge our horses by what they are ready to give - and when Bandit is going up a minor climb that these horses wouldn't even notice, he can be giving me what HE has that day.

I also took some comfort from the biting comment. Bandit has always been mouthy. I think his previous owner accepted it. I don't because he sometimes gets a bit pointed about it - "_Hey, I'm really not happy with where you are leading!_" Like an occasional buck, it may always be a possibility, but it will NEVER be an accepted part of communication for me. 

At the same time, I'd rather deal with it than have a horse who is emotionally shut down. One of the reasons I stopped taking lessons was it broke my heart. The horses...if you showed an interest in them, it was like they were struggling out of a deep sleep. Then they would start trying to help me...and then the next rider would treat them like an ATV. There were a couple I'd have loved to take home, although I had no room for them. We ended up with little Cowboy, and he's been a champ for us...but he was a bitter and badly shaken horse when he arrived.

That's part of why I love this picture, when my wife was just starting to get interested in riding:








​ 
The burnt out lesson horse giving a lesson on a trail, looking around and taking it all in! It seems to me riding lessons OUGHT to include getting out of the arena, even in our litigiousness society!


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## Zexious

^Can I ask what type of lesson program you were in? 
I don't think I've ever participated in something where the horses were so disheartened, but I can imagine that wouldn't make for a fun experience. 

As for Bandit's mouthiness and his nip today--you handled it the same way I would. 
I make a big deal out of things that other riders and handlers don't seem to mind. Pawing, impatience, pushiness... they're all things that lead to a bigger problem if not addressed, and things I personally don't tolerate for my horses.


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## bsms

*Warning - Rant and "Old Man Rambling" ahead!*

I took group lessons at a local stable - about 20-25 miles from me, which is as close as I could find. The horses were a mix. Some were owned by the instructor and some were used by their owner's permission.

As lessons go, they weren't bad. The instructor actually tried to focus on how to get the horse to work with you. But she had two problems:

1 - Many of the students didn't seem to listen. This is where not being "show oriented" may have hurt. Something I find impossible to understand but seems to be true is that a lot of riders WANT an ATV. They just do not care about the horse as an individual. Without having some goal - jumping higher, or running barrels, or some other outside incentive - a lot of my fellow students put in minimal effort at improving their riding, and most showed no interest in their assigned horse as an individual.

This is where Mia was a very good first horse for me in some ways. She had such a strong personality that NO ONE could ride her and not be constantly aware that a thinking, feeling being was carrying them. The normal advice for someone starting out is to take lessons for a year, then get a 'been-there, done-that' horse, and then maybe a few years later graduate to a more challenging horse. And there are a number of stock horses available where I live who don't have much personality, but who will haul a butt around more effectively than Bandit does right now.

Had I started with a horse like that, which was very unflappable and that would tolerate being ridden with a heavy rump and heavy hands, I would either have lost interest OR turned into a heavy rump/heavy hand rider.

Clinton Anderson may be a much better rider than I give him credit for being. To his credit, when discussing his current project horse titan, he says Titan was bred to be lazy, rather dull-witted and cold-blooded - and he likes that because it will make him easy to train for reining. For any reiners out there, I have no idea if that is true. But at least he admits that he wanted a horse who would want to stop as soon as you stopped urging him forward. I am certain the heavy approach to riding that I was taught when I took some lessons for a few months around 1975 and at the University in 1978 would work fine for many horses. I think my current approach would work BETTER, but why would I try for better if I already had good enough?

After all, it isn't as though a lot of books or DVDs or Youtube videos or, sadly, a lot of online horse forums discuss working with a horse's personality or trying to draw that personality out. Bandit, when I got him, would go until he couldn't go & then explode. So the first thing I had to do was teach him it was OK to talk to me. *But almost nothing in my many books and certainly almost nothing in the DVDs and videos I've seen ever discusses drawing out a horse's personality and teaching it to use judgment!*

I find this the most frustrating part of riding. I've been accused or just repeating what I've read in books, and not having an original thought or any experience with horses. Yet almost everything I write about horses is rooted in what I've learned from the horse, not from the book! I probably have 30+ books on riding. Most will discuss "rider position" at length. Advice on spooking tends to focus on "position" and "bit". Or the advice is to "_Be confident. A horse won't spook if the rider is confident!_" - which is utterly false. I've both watched and participated in some pretty impressive spooks while feeling totally confident, or under a very confident and experienced rider. Or it is to "_Move his feet! Take his head away and show him you are The Strong Leader!_" - which may work with some horses, but makes others even more afraid. Do that with a nervous type of horse, and as James Fillis wrote back in 1890, you'll only make him worse.

But I've never seen, in print or on video, anyone say a horse can learn confidence in its rider the same way a human learns to trust another human - by experience, *when the other person demonstrates both concern and competence*. The NH types want to teach "trust" in a round pen, which may work with an expert (although I doubt it) and certainly is easy for a beginner to totally screw up! Others teach that you just need to be the Chuck Norris of Riders - open a can of whooping chili on the horse, regardless of context. Just use a roundhouse kick and teach the horse to stop thinking! 

I'm overstating things in my frustration. There are certainly passages in some books that discuss a horse's personality, but it is such a small part of most instruction that it disappears from the view of a new rider. I've seen pages written about the exact position of the foot in the stirrup, almost nothing about WHY that position is helpful, and far less still about using your horse's personality, or teaching him to be confident and bold (within his genetic constraints).

Sorry. Rant off, for a moment. Back to my 2 point list:

2 - The lessons I took had us going around and around in an arena. She tried to break it up with working on cueing certain types of turns, or going over a 12" obstacle, or trying to get a horse to put one foot into the center of a tire - but a horse who had been there for a few years had been there and done that ad nauseum.

I think riding is taught in an arena for the benefit of the instructor. It makes it easy to watch the student at all times. If a student gets hurt, you can tell the court you did everything possible. And it keeps the student focused on the instructor, who must be earning her pay because she is constantly "instructing".

I think a far better model is how the cavalry taught it: 5-10 minutes of discussion, then head out and ride through terrain that will give you an hour or two to work on the thing you just had instruction on. But in fairness, very few riding places have that option.

I'm extremely lucky. 1/4 mile of paved road leads to a 1/2 mile by 1/2 miles section of private land owned by a guy with thousands of acres of investment land scattered around the western US, open to anyone who feels like crossing it. It has 3 washes. Up hill and down hill spots. Lots of cactus. Two dirt roads. Spots the horses from Rio literally could not cross, and easy spots. Deep sand, and deep rocks. Right next to it, there is empty land, both private and public, stretching on for miles. I'm limited by my horses' hooves and by the lack of water. And my 58 year old body. And lack of skill. But within a mile of me exists a lot of terrain that challenges both me and my horse.

These four pictures were taken within a 1/4 mile of each other:








​ 







​ 







​ 







​ 
No pictures of when we are picking our way between cactus. Haven't gotten to the point where I feel comfortable enough doing so to take pictures at the same time. Guiding a horse between cactus at a walk is not physically demanding, but it demands a lot of trust. But I have places very close to me where a horse can gallop, and places where a slow walk is tough, and places a horse cannot pass. Heck, it has places _*I*_ cannot pass, when on my own two feet! And places within 10 miles of me I don't have the nerve or skill to try.

Honestly, my biggest limit right now is fear - both unjustified AND justified. There are places within jogging distance of me where a solo rider could get hurt and not be found for a day, and Bandit can be great...or not so great, on any given day. Some of my fear is also "good judgment"...

But in my 8 years of riding, I've been blessed by horses who challenge me, open land near me, neighborhood roads that often freak out my horses in a way the desert never does, great riders who have written good books, and an online forum where I can think out loud and hear thoughts on riding from around the country and around the world. I'm a very lucky rider!


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## Zexious

I disagree with your analysis of why lessons are taught in an arena.
In my opinion, lessons are typically taught to people who want to compete. Though there are exceptions (and those exceptions are typically schooled outside of an arena anyway), competitions happen within arena walls. There's no point schooling a cross country course if you're only looking to participate in H/J; no point in lessoning in a Dressage arena if you're looking to run barrels. 
The setting and instruction should grow and change as the rider does, and once a rider has got the basics down (and really, how long does that take?), I think lessons should move on to being specialized to desired discipline. 

I'm sure your deductions have relevance in more "lesson mill" type barns, but my experience with those are minimal at best. Maybe I'm just ignorant from my relatively limited view of the horse world?

I can say I'm enamored and envious over the photos that you share <3 Though my experiences are fairly limited (and almost all entirely inside of an arena) I should love to someday ride in a place like yours. You're very lucky! <3


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## tinyliny

I don't think good horse training is trying to 'teach' trust. trust comes as a byproduct of a bunch of other things, just as happiness is a byproduct of doing other things.

anyway, I am trying to think if there is any one, central core that is applicable to all good trainers, and I think it is CLARITY. the trainer that is very clear to the horse, and Clinton Anderson is pretty darn clear, offers the horse what horses offer each other; clarity. they are never wishy washy with each other, at least not for long will indecision last.
the trainer who is clear in his requests to the horse is the one who will have good timing, becuase he/she never forgets what she /he is trying to get from the horse, so they SEE it when it comes, and reward it immediately, which is so satisfying for the hrose. that builds trust.


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## bsms

Zexious said:


> ...In my opinion, lessons are typically taught to people who want to compete....The setting and instruction should grow and change as the rider does, and once a rider has got the basics down (and really, how long does that take?), I think lessons should move on to being specialized to desired discipline...


It probably has to do with where I live. Most of the lessons I've seen were oriented more towards someone learning the basics. And I agree - that shouldn't take very long, at least not in a western saddle. In my case, I was there with a specific goal: getting comfortable enough that I wouldn't make Mia any worse by my riding. I took lessons for 4 months, then quit.

Many of my fellow students were using it more as a substitute for owning a horse. You paid for lessons, but there were social times where you could ride for free. So paying for weekly lessons bought you a chance to ride 2-3 hours/week with no cost for the horse...not a bad deal at all! For someone in their 20s, as most were, who couldn't afford the land to keep their own horse and who didn't want to pay all the bills to stable one, a great deal.

But they really didn't seem very interested in the horse's mind. Again, I started my riding with Mia. She was borderline on being a mental case, so paying close attention to her mind was essential. With her strong personality, it was going to happen.



tinyliny said:


> I don't think good horse training is trying to 'teach' trust. trust comes as a byproduct of a bunch of other things, just as happiness is a byproduct of doing other things.
> 
> anyway, I am trying to think if there is any one, central core that is applicable to all good trainers, and I think it is CLARITY. the trainer that is very clear to the horse, and Clinton Anderson is pretty darn clear...


As a rule, horses are very trusting animals. Again, I see things from my limited perspective. Look at the 3 horses I own now:

Trooper - Very trusting by nature, had that trust badly damaged when he was spurred into a bloody mess, still has physical scars and needed professional help and time to regain his trust.

Cowboy - trust destroyed by poor quality round penning and use as a lesson horse. From the few I've seen and heard about, mustangs tend to be more independent thinkers than many horses, but it didn't help that he was often ridden badly. I fault the instructor for not stepping in and protecting him from heavy riders and from being round penned by a younger woman who shouldn't have been allowed to round pen anything, let alone anyone!

He arrived very arena sour, and took time to settle. He had been ridden well by some of his previous owners, which may be why he works so well with older women. But he had no trust left in him when he arrived.

Bandit - raced in the sort of endurance racing popular in the Four Corners area. An uncommonly smart horse, he wasn't given a vote or allowed to think - which is common around here at least. But at least he came here LIKING people!

And then there is me. I started at 50 and am now 58. I spend time riding in neighborhoods, on pavement, and in the desert. I've ridden out my fair share of explosions, but the next one could slam me down on paved road or dump me in cactus or jagged rock. My one fall DID land me about 2 feet from a field of large, jagged rock. 3 feet further to the side, and I might not be alive.

The reason I dislike Clinton Anderson is so many of his videos seem to be based on "_Don't think. Obey! Or I'll make your life suck!_" That approach has nothing to do with trust. Or teamwork. And I've concluded the third fundamental rule in training a horse is "*Horses love WE*". If someone is content with obedience, and it seems most are, then the CA approach makes a lot of sense. But if you want a horse who enjoys riding, and who is working with you instead of for you, then something more is needed.

I've posted this before, but I love it and it is germane to my point:

"_Therefore, everywhere - out-of-doors or in the haute ecole - success with horses is to him who applies this maxim of Baucher...

'Let him think that he is our master, then he is our slave.' There dwells an eternal equestrian truth!

'The horse is the sole master of his forces; even with all of our vigor, by himself, the rider is powerless to increase the horse's forces. Therefor, *it is for the horse to employ his forces in his own way, for himself to determine the manner of that employment so as to best fulfill the demands of his riders*. If the rider tries to do it all, the horse may permit him to do so, but the horse merely drifts, and limits his efforts to those which the rider demands. On the contrary, if the horse knows that he must rely on himself, he uses himself completely, with all of his energy.'" - 5 May 1922

-- Horse Training Outdoors and High School, Etienne Beudant (1931_)

If it hadn't been for Mia, I'd have been content with a horse who worked for me instead of with me. Mia changed me, irrevocably. And if the last 8 years have taught me anything, it is that I aspire to ride the horse's mind. If I do that, then being effective is easy.

That is why I loved those quotes from Rio. Again and again, the riders focused on their horse and not themselves. That is what Littauer said had to happen for artistry in riding. To go beyond painting by numbers, one must give up thinking "me and my horse" and become "we".

I suck at riding. Not hideously. I don't yank on my horse and I keep some semblance of balance. But what I enjoy about riding is not the physical effort. It is the friendship of the horse. Once in a while, I'll ask my horse if he (or she) thinks we can do something. When the horse responds, and then WE are doing it together - even if it is as simple as walking relaxed down a neighborhood street - that is heaven to me!

I'm a jogger, not a rider. I'm a jogger who enjoys the company of a horse while getting out in places that I also jog. It is a very different perspective than what a lot of people seem to enjoy, and I need to learn not to attack them for not thinking like me. I'm the weirdo. I cannot have fun on the back of a horse who is not engaged and happy. Maybe briefly, like yesterday's unhappy walk. It isn't always fun. But if I can't get my horse to enjoy being with me, I'll quit.


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## tinyliny

Is that a post agreeing with my remark or disagreeing? Or just not related to it. I just didn't quite read it clearly.


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## tinyliny

bsms said:


> The reason I dislike Clinton Anderson is so many of his videos seem to be based on "_Don't think. Obey! Or I'll make your life suck!_" That approach has nothing to do with trust. Or teamwork. And I've concluded the third fundamental rule in training a horse is "*Horses love WE*". If someone is content with obedience, and it seems most are, then the CA approach makes a lot of sense. But if you want a horse who enjoys riding, and who is working with you instead of for you, then something more is needed."
> 
> 
> ok. I think I better understand what you are getting at.
> 
> and , yes, I agree mostly. Anderson's approach is very clear, which is really important, but it is not based on the horse having any sense of choice in anythig. this is very much different from what my teacher teaches. her foundation is that we work on teaching the horse to look for answers, and in the case of a hrose who thinks he already has the answer to things (like . . . 'things will be better at the barn", "I have to move, now" " I can't stand still" " I must be in front of this line" "I can't slow down" "I don't want to give to the bit"  "bit contact means I brace into it" . . . . etc. etc.) , then the trainer has to interrupt that thought long enough for the hrose to be free of HIS thought, so that he can search for something new , a new way.
> 
> (whenever I write this out, and read it, it sounds like gobbledy ****, but when you see it done, it makes perfect sense)
> 
> the trainer puts just enough pressure on the hrose to block that unwanted thought, then gives the horse some time to think about what to do; to 'search' for an answer. when the hrose finds the way that is easier, finding it himself, it will take on that idea much better than if it is forced there, either by pressure of bit and spur, or by making NOT doing that so horribly hard (super hard pressure) that the horse flees that pressure to the other side. not really any time to 'search' , just time to run away from the 'impossible'.
> that's why Dorrance said not to make the wrong thing impossible, just a bit harder, . . like . uncomfortable.


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## waresbear

The videos I have seen with CA, and granted it's only been a few, he was working with spoilt brats and shrinking violet owners, so I think he had to step it up.


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## bsms

I suspect that just as my approach has been formed by the horses I've known, Mr Clinton's has been shaped by the riders he has met - and I bet a lot of them have been pretty...well, words fail me, which doesn't happen often. I cannot imagine the sorts of people he meets.

I agree with interrupting the horse's wrong idea so they can start searching for the right idea. I really like that phrasing, too, and plan to steal it! However, I also really like Tom Robert's phrasing: "_This will profit you. This will profit you not._" After decades with horses, he resorted to that terminology because "_Make the wrong thing hard"_ is often taken in a way I suspect Mr Dorrance would not like.

Speaking as an inexperienced rider who has struggled to find ways of getting a horse to do what I want, I am simply more productive in my approach and less likely to take 12 steps back if I combine "_Quiet persistence_" and "_This will not profit you, try again_". And if I add "_WE_" to it, then I'm eagerly awaiting my team-mate's figuring out the right answer!

If I think of it in terms of "_WE are not getting the right answer, WE need to keep trying until WE get the right one together_", MY attitude changes.

Now if the horse already knows the right answers and chooses the wrong one because he is not happy with me, then it is time to break out the chili. There is a world of difference between "_I don't know the right answer_" and "_Up yours, Bob!_" But horses have such good natures that I find it hard to believe very many horses who know their owner well prefer "Up yours!" - at least as the initial response. Maybe I've just been lucky in the horses I've known, but maybe some of my luck has been created from listening to them.

That said, the occasional "Up yours" needs to get a thunderstorm response, not a gentle soaking rain!


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## Alhefner

bsms said:


> That said, the occasional "Up yours" needs to get a thunderstorm response, not a gentle soaking rain!


hehehe... I think all horses occasionally do the "Up yours" thing. With Barney, it looks to me to be more like "I'm not gonna and YOU can't make me!"... A look of supreme stubbornness on his face. Of course, he IS gonna. I simply change thing up to "Well, if you're gonna refuse to do that, then we'll do this!" with the "this" much less pleasant that the original "that". It usually only takes a few seconds of "this" (which is often spinning his hinny away from me in both directions) before HE decides that the original idea wasn't so bad after all and suddenly says "OK, I'm gonna...".


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## gottatrot

tinyliny said:


> I don't think good horse training is trying to 'teach' trust. trust comes as a byproduct of a bunch of other things, just as happiness is a byproduct of doing other things.


I think also as BSMS' horses lost their trust in people, horses can lose trust in an environment or in a skill. If a horse is in an accident, they might lose their trust of riding in a trailer, or if they fall over a jump they might lose their trust in the safety of jumping. The way I try to build trust in my horses is by being fair, consistent and reliable. If they have lost their trust in other things, such as the safety of the tie rack, I try to show them it can be reliably safe to go there, be there, etc.


tinyliny said:


> ...anyway, I am trying to think if there is any one, central core that is applicable to all good trainers, and I think it is CLARITY. the trainer that is very clear to the horse, and Clinton Anderson is pretty darn clear, offers the horse what horses offer each other; clarity. they are never wishy washy with each other, at least not for long will indecision last.
> the trainer who is clear in his requests to the horse is the one who will have good timing, becuase he/she never forgets what she /he is trying to get from the horse, so they SEE it when it comes, and reward it immediately, which is so satisfying for the hrose. that builds trust.


I like where you're going with these thoughts. They gave me things to mull over today. 
I was thinking clarity is not necessarily wonderful all by itself, because it is only useful if it goes hand in hand with fairness. I've seen people who are communicating very clearly to the horse and yet the treatment is unfair, and the horse overreacts or is resentful. In my mind it would be similar to two different parents who gave consistent and clear reprimands to their kids, but with one the punishment fits the behavior, and the other always beats them with a stick. 

Horses are not wishy washy with each other, true, but they don't always kick each other hard with both hind legs. They often begin slow and build if the horse doesn't respond, only making contact physically if a horse ignores other cues. Humans tend to go straight to the "double barrel" kick, and based on horse behavior it would not seem fair to a horse. 

For instance, do you usually see a horse back another clear across the field first thing if he steps into the other horse's space? Usually that is reserved for the horse that has ignored the ear twitch, then the warning look, then the ear pinning, then the repositioning of the hind end. But if the horse steps into our space, many trainers don't first ask them to move with our look, then give a physical warning, then perhaps use the lead rope, but instead will begin with backing them clear across the field (I saw an example of this today). 

Yes, my horse will chase another for a few dozen feet, but that's after it's been made very clear that the other horse is not allowed to do such and such (enter the shed when she is in there, etc). So the horse already knows he is doing something unacceptable, and a larger punishment is warranted to prevent future occurrences.

And good timing, as you mention, is important. Watching Edward Gal riding in the Olympics, I remembered how when he rode Totilas everyone thought the horse was brilliant, but others could not get the same performance out of him. The horse he was riding in Rio (Voice) also had a good performance, although he was not expected to do extremely well. Watching him, I thought that Gal had good timing, in that he could almost always cue the horse exactly at the moment when it would make the horse lift more or appear more expressive. Perhaps that is his best talent as a rider; very good timing. I don't know if his horses trust him, or if he is fair, but I believe he has timing down.


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## bsms

I think "trust" and "respect" are frequently used incorrectly. If a horse doesn't obey, he is being "disrespectful", in NH terminology. But frequently, the horse is just not obeying - because he doesn't understand what is being asked, because he doesn't feel capable of doing it or because he thinks doing it will get him hurt. But there he goes again...thinking on his own and not automatically submitting to our will, so he is "disrespectful". And since he is insulting us, we respond with resentment.

It may be common for some of the scared, submissive acting new riders who expect their $800 horse to be flawless out of love to have horses who disrespect them. I'm certain it happens. And I'm pretty sure I'd feel pretty disrespectful myself of many of the people who show up at clinics! If Clinton Anderson is getting burned out, as some say he is, I understand that part fully.

But a horse moving into my space is not being disrespectful. My horses regularly stand side by side, an inch apart, swatting flies off of their faces. Cowboy & Bandit often eat with their muzzles inches apart, even with another flake of hay sitting untouched in the corral. I've seen my horses go up to another horse and rub their head against the other horse, and the other horse takes no offense. Heck, the picture below is Bandit busy PLAYING with Trooper!








​ 
I wouldn't accept that from him because I could get hurt, but he wouldn't be disrespectful...not when he was just socially interacting with the #1 horse in the corral!

Same with trust. If we chase a horse around a round pen, and only offer him relief when he stands next to us or follows us around, we call that "trust" and "joining up". I call it teaching the horse he has to appease the psycho by acting in a way I've never seen my horses act. I never, ever saw another horse following Mia around like a lovesick teen. It is tough to get Cowboy into a round pen. If you can, he'll immediately try to follow you around like a dog. That doesn't mean he has suddenly developed "respect" for you. He just figures it is his only hope of avoiding your attack. Some trust! :icon_rolleyes:

I trust my wife, but I don't obey her every whim. Sometimes we argue. It doesn't mean I don't trust her or don't respect her. If I lived a life of blind obedience to my wife, she'd have no respect for me! Sometimes I know more than she does. And sometimes I simply WANT something different than she does. So WE work out a mutually acceptable compromise. Or fight (argue). Trust does not mean unquestioning submission!

But that is how it is often used in horses and NH. If your horse doesn't immediately go where you point him, he doesn't trust you. Well, maybe he smells something you don't - and knows it. I'm pretty sure that at some level Bandit understands that he can smell things I miss, and I see things he misses. So WE compensate for each other. If he smells carnivore breath coming from a large green object next to the road, the problem isn't his trust. The problem is he smells something that worries him, and I cannot. 

So now, at this point in our relationship, he warns me. And I reassure him. But he KNOWS it smells like a carnivore, and that I am missing the smell. I know it is a garbage can, and it doesn't have a mountain lion hiding in it. But from the viewpoint of a thinking, reasonable creature, he has a point. It DOES smell dangerous to him, and I don't have the sense of smell to detect it. So we work out a compromise, and he is finally beginning to realize that big green things beside the road that smell like carnivores are not, in fact, bushes hiding a mountain lion.

I understand how a ranch horse needs to be trained differently. I understand a show horse also needs to be trained differently. You can't have a dressage horse (or WP, or barrel racer) slam on the brakes and stare for 90 seconds at someone selling hot dogs in the stands. I'll admit, though, that I'd LOVE to see it! :rofl: 

But for my goals, a good horse will smell snakes or javelina that I am oblivious to, and help US to avoid the threat by warning me and maybe by insisting that WE will not go there. I neither need nor want unquestioning obedience. It has nothing to do with trust or respect. Well, it does - MUTUAL respect, and an understanding of how each member of the team can best contribute to achieve OUR goals.

Trooper is a very trusting horse by his nature. He doesn't want to make decisions, although he will if he likes his rider. During a lesson my youngest was getting years ago, the teacher started laughing and stopped the exercise. My daughter was supposed to cue Trooper to weave between the cones, and if she did her part right, Trooper would weave back and forth between every cone. But Trooper figured out the goal, and then he would ignore the cues (if needed) to achieve the goal. So they had to alter the game, so that she would need to weave after X cones, and the instructor would shout out what number X was after every weave. It was the only way to prevent Trooper from making sure his team "won". But as a rule, Trooper doesn't like to think. He is an embarrassment to his 3/4 Arabian & 1/4 Appy breeding!

Bandit didn't want to think either, at the start. Thinking got him in trouble. Then he was uncertain for a while because he had never practiced thinking. But now he's getting pretty good at it. He seems to like being responsible. And he seems to think harder when other horses are around because he assumes he has to do the thinking for them, too. But he also is beginning to recognize that I think, and think well. So trail riding is becoming a collaborative effort - both of us thinking so the other two horses won't need to. That may not be right for some showing, and it might not be best for ranch work, but it works well for us - in part because Bandit CAN think. Not all horses do.


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## Sharpie

bsms said:


> I suck at riding. Not hideously. I don't yank on my horse and I keep some semblance of balance. But what I enjoy about riding is not the physical effort. It is the friendship of the horse. Once in a while, I'll ask my horse if he (or she) thinks we can do something. When the horse responds, and then WE are doing it together - even if it is as simple as walking relaxed down a neighborhood street - that is heaven to me!
> 
> I'm a jogger, not a rider. I'm a jogger who enjoys the company of a horse while getting out in places that I also jog. It is a very different perspective than what a lot of people seem to enjoy, and I need to learn not to attack them for not thinking like me. I'm the weirdo. I cannot have fun on the back of a horse who is not engaged and happy. Maybe briefly, like yesterday's unhappy walk. It isn't always fun. But if I can't get my horse to enjoy being with me, I'll quit.


I think you said this very well. I'm more or less the same. I like horses and I like riding, but I don't ride to compete or show. I ride because I enjoy going out in the world, covering a distance, and being with my horse. I cover distance on foot myself jogging, hiking, and rucking. Covering distance on a horse is similar and I enjoy it just as much. It's just doing it with a friend, and being able to go further and faster, and notionally at least, carry more than I could on my own. I sometimes get bored running very long distances too often. I have never yet been bored covering those longer distances on a horse.

Riding in a way that WE can both enjoy it safely and learn to work well together is really the goal... not looking a certain way or having my toes point forward. I really enjoy your thread BSMS, because I learn a lot from the sources you share with us. 

I like to think I have some success... at times my gelding will respond to a request I've made with a distinct pause that clearly communicates the question, "Are you sure about this?" Sometimes, when I'm asking something that I know will take big effort (physical or mental) on his part, I can easily answer, "Yes, I am sure." And when I repeat the request, because he trusts my judgement, he'll then oblige me. Sometimes he's asked me if I was sure in situations I did not think were dangerous or challenging and it turns out that in those cases HE was correct and that it was a Bad Idea because he saw or smelled something I didn't. So I've learned to trust his judgement as well and make sure there's not more to the situation when he questions my direction unexpectedly.

Trust and respect have to work both ways. All too often I think that's what people forget.


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## bsms

Today was my first ride since the walk & the double helping of chili. I decided to try something I hadn't done in quite a while & go Australian:








​ 
My original plan was to simply get some time in riding in the arena because I had a meeting to go to and not much time to spare. But Bandit, for obvious reasons, felt the arena was dedicated to eating...so we went out. First solo trip in a while, too.

Bandit acted completely comfortable in the Australian-style saddle. I say "style" because REAL Australian saddles don't have horns, and they start at about 4 times what this saddle runs new. The saddle is too wide for Bandit (and Mia before him) in the front, so I cut a white Wintec foam pad in half and use the front half to fill in. I use it sometimes with my western saddle for the same reason - Bandit is slender. And the white, closed cell foam is both very dense AND very grippy, so I can use it without worrying that it will make the saddle more likely to slip. My pad was, this time, a blanket made of Australian wool. Without the Wintec pad, the saddle slopes down at the front and is very hard to ride.

What surprised me was how confident I felt in it. It isn't nearly as wide as my western saddle. That makes it much easier to "stand" in the stirrups versus "sit in the saddle". And it brought back memories...

I first bought an Aussie-style saddle after getting hurt pretty bad in Jan 2009. At the time, I couldn't lie down on a bed without stabbing pain. So yes, I still rode. About a week after I got my Aussie saddle, I was on little Lilly when she spooked at some quail. She did a hard 180 left, leaped forward to clear some unknown thing, then another 180 left so she could see what scared her. In spite of my only having ridden a few months at that point, and in spite of my back being very painful and weak...I stayed on. To be more precise, the saddle kept me on. It wasn't me. It wasn't my position. It wasn't my skill. The SADDLE kept me on when I had no right to stay on.

In the years that followed, Mia & I did uncounted spooks, spins, sideways jumps and bolts. I eventually got to where the poleys were not leaving bruises on my thighs, then to where I pretty much stopped contacting them at all. There were times, though, when Mia wanted to beat the other horse in her self-imagined race by 100 lengths, where I braced my thighs against the poleys so I could use all my strength to slow her down. And a few times when she got off balance, way far over to the front, and tried to keep running and I needed to pull her head UP with sheer brute force.

Riding solo today, I realized I wasn't afraid of anything Bandit was going to do. I've never been on a bucking horse in this saddle. Mia didn't buck, ever, with me. But we did most anything else I can think of that a horse can do with its body, and the saddle and I stayed on. I could slide my leg forward or back or anywhere in between that I wanted for what we were doing. 

We matched our not very far maximum solo penetration of the desert, and then went 20 yards further just because, and only turned back because I was already going to be late for my meeting and didn't want to miss it entirely. Otherwise, on we would have gone. It felt great!

No pictures, since we were alone. At the end, stopped in the arena, I took one blindly in hopes of checking my leg position...pictures are the only feedback I get.








​
Not bad. Pretty much what I like. Toe out some, foot homed in the stirrup, maybe a little further back than I like, but not excessively so.

Since Bandit had no objections, and since I just felt GOOD in this saddle, I think I'll continue to use it. I'm a huge believer that if some piece of tack gives you confidence or just "feels right", then use it. My western saddle would be more comfortable for a 3 hour trail ride, but my old Australian one felt awfully good today!

A long ago picture of Mia and I using this saddle, just because. I still miss her in some ways, but Bandit really is a much saner horse. And he shares enough of Mia's personality that my wife has been known to call him "Mini-Mia"...but I never rode Mia between two cactus tight on either side. I'm willing with Bandit.



















BTW, I'm probably the only person who uses dally wrap on an Australian horn. It is NOT meant for roping. I just like the way it feels in my hand with dally wrap.​


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## bsms

Another solo trip with Bandit & the Aussie saddle this morning. He was a bit jumpier today. Maybe an upset tummy. He passed a few farts that...well, he was in violation of at least two or three international treaties! However, he seemed comfortable enough with the saddle, and it felt good to me. I looked at Down Under's web site...my girth is 7 years old and showing its age. They have a pad that covers the entire flap of the Australian saddle and has pockets for shims, but I may stick with the Mayatex New Zealand (not Australian) wool blanket plus the Wintec shim. It felt stable and none of the hair was ruffled.

Haven't bought any tack for a while, though, and this looks like it might be nice:










Or maybe:










Since my wife would probably question how much it is needed, I've got some time to think about it while coming up with a good excuse. Did I mention the red in the current one is turning pink? You can't expect an ex-military officer to ride a horse wearing pink, can you?​ 
We went about 100 yards further today than last time. It seemed like the kind of day to concentrate on getting a solid base of "We can do this" laid down versus a "How much can we do" kind of day. We did swing past the community water tank that he dislikes, with its pump running, and he didn't do anything bad.

I asked him to trot more today than the last time. Coming home, we trotted past the spot in my avatar just because he seemed to have some boogers to blow out of his brain. About 200 yards of trotting on pavement got him thinking about how much better his feet feel at a walk. 

So on the final leg, climbing up the hill to our place, I asked him for a canter. It was his first off-property, out alone canter. My luck being my luck, as soon as he switched to a canter, my neighbor turned on his boombox so he could rock while doing whatever it was he was doing. 

Still, when I asked him to slow, Bandit had a choice - slow and turn into our arena, or not slow and go closer to the boombox. He chose the former...but then wanted to canter as soon as we were in the arena. I said no, and we discussed it with some vigor. As soon as I gave him slack, he tried again, and I said no with some vigor again. So we walked half a lap, then I asked him to canter...and we did, for a lap. Then he wanted to stop, and we stopped. I had achieved my goals for the day's training - solo, desert, further than before, nothing too exciting, but more trotting and a solo canter - which doesn't seem to blow his mind any. Without another horse for competition, I think Bandit will decide walking is usually preferable to trotting, and trotting to cantering. But we are now working on it solo.

One of my mistakes with Mia was rushing her to do more without laying a solid foundation of mental relaxation. I'd rather spend the next few months dotting my "i"s and crossing my "t"s with Bandit rather than seeing how fast we can get to "z".


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## Zexious

^Oh, the second one <3
Much more in tune with contemporary fashion -- I know that's your number one concern while traversing the trails


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I vote for #1. A lot of white is a no go for me. Too much dust flying around in the air here! It would look filthy after the first ride.


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## bsms

I came across this on the Nikkel's website discussing where the rider's center of gravity is. 

Center of pressure under a saddle

Standing still, with a pressure mat, the computer calculated it as being at the green line:








​ 
I've long liked my heel just in front of my belt buckle, which would be about where the center of gravity is. If my heel is brought back under my hip, it would be BEHIND the overall center of gravity (although doing that would bring the CoG back some too). Moving my heels forward, but leaving the rest of my body the same, would shift my center of gravity a little further forward - because if all else remains the same, shifting body parts forward must shift the CoG forward!

If nothing else, this shows that the leg, thigh and stirrups are carrying a lot more weight than they often get credit for carrying. This may be more true of western saddles, which are designed to distribute the rider's weight over a larger area of the saddle, just as they are designed to distribute the total weight over a larger area of the horse's back. Lower psi for rider and horse means longer hours in the saddle without pain to either.

Our farrier came at 8AM today, but I got a quick ride in on Bandit at 7 AM. Bandit was a little 'elevated' this morning, so we did more trotting than usual. I asked him for a short canter on the pavement. The loudness of his hooves was a reminder of how much harder his hooves were hitting, and so I said, "Easy" after just 50 yards...and he immediately slowed. Without another horse to compete against, Bandit might actually become a little lazy, which wouldn't bother me at all. After all the rain the last few weeks, the trails are very rocky. We went off the trail much of the time in order to protect Bandit's feet. In fact, it was Bandit who asked to leave the trail...so we did.


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## tinyliny

having a feeling for a good portion of your body weight being carried through the thighs is a good way to think of it. this promotes better 'adhesion' , as well as spreading out your weight over a greater area. 

Mary Wanlass has a good book that talks about somethig like 8 riding points and explains them in ways that are really helpful, at least to me. she talks about how you don't want your thighs to be as flacid as jello. they should have some 'tone' to them, as should your gluteal muslces. that 'tone' helps spread your weight more evenly, and less 'floppy'. if a rider is as loose as jello, they will be jostled about a lot more than having a bit of 'tone' in the thighs and gluts, which make you able to stick with the motion of the hrose. the trick is not tighten so much that your seatbones are lifted off the saddle by a thickened glut muscle. just a wee bit.
I've noticed that when I keep just a tiney bit of engagement of my glut muscles, I don't get the sore seatbones I get if I sit in the saddle like a sack of potatoes. (who sees sacks of poatoes anymore? or sacks of vegetables of any kind? not like the 25 or 50 lb burlap ones we used to buy)


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## bsms

I think that is why I prefer some weight in the stirrups. It helps to firm the leg and thigh. I've tried lengthening them and riding very light, but then I feel floppy as you say. I'm trying to figure out a balance that isn't tense, but that also keeps me prepared for the unexpected. 

Something I noticed today: In my western saddle, I often ignore 'heels down'. Particularly if I've got the sheepskin (aka butt velcro) on it. But in my Australian saddle, which rides very "English", getting my heels down or toes up is like an anchor. My western saddle cradles my thighs but leaves my lower leg a little off the side. My Australian saddle doesn't cradle my thighs. My lower leg is on the horse, and the lower leg is the anchor of my position.

Western:










Australian / English (it would be closer if we were moving, Bandit was stopped when I took the picture):










Australian, I pretty much always have lower leg contact while moving. Not squeezing, but it is there. Western, the extra leather and shape of the saddle puts my leg off of Bandit below the knee. *Also, compare my resting toe position western vs Aussie*. Hmmmmm....

I've read a lot of folks who say they ride the same English as Western. I don't know how they do it. Maybe it is something funky about my saddles or funky about me, but they feel VERY different to me! 

I do understand why English riders tend to be more 'anal' about position. I find western saddles very forgiving. If I bounce a little in a western saddle, the saddle still protects my horse's back. I normally don't try to get off his back, certainly no more than 1/2". It just doesn't seem needed. And with rough-out leather (or sheepskin), the saddle tends to hold me. Where my thighs go depends far more on the saddle when I ride western than Australian.

I can't trust my Australian saddle to protect my horse's back. Being AUSTRALIAN and not English, it does give me outstanding support if the horse spins, stumbles or slams on the brakes - but that isn't true of an English saddle. OTOH, no knee blocks on an Australian saddle, just smooth hard leather where the knee would grip - which may explain why I hate the idea of the stationary knee. Maybe that is the effect of riding Australian vs English. But I have to be more careful of MY balance because the saddle won't do anything to help outside of an emergency. Good riding in an Australian saddle means never touching the poleys, which are for emergencies.

All speculation. But I find it feels very different, and I think riding English in a Western saddle is probably an error on the rider's part, as much as riding western in an English saddle is.​ 
BTW - I once lived in Logan, Utah. Idaho was 20 miles away. We used to be able to buy 100 lb sacks of potatoes for $10. They were getting pretty tired by the end of the sack, but the price was hard to beat!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

About seven years ago, I rode a six hour trail ride in the Rockies without any stirrups at all. They were uneven and I was too lazy to fix them so I just dropped them. 

We rode both up and down the mountain (a real one, not a foot hill), in the pouring rain. The saddle was a slick seat 16" (rented) and I usually ride either a 14" or 14.5" so I was slipping around. At the time I really didn't think much about it, as in I didn't feel uncomfortable or anything.

The next day I was as sore as I think I have ever been in my life! As a competitive elite athlete who had a lot of training in strength and flexibility, that is saying a lot. 

Every ligament and tendon in my pelvic saddle was screaming at me. I was gripping with my knees and thighs instead of using the stirrups to help with balancing and keep from sliding forward and backward in the seat. NOT ever doing that again! Major note to self, probably not doing something right to be that excruciatingly sore.

I think western saddles are to be ridden quite differently than English.


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## phantomhorse13

bsms said:


> If I bounce a little in a western saddle, the saddle still protects my horse's back. I normally don't try to get off his back, certainly no more than 1/2". It just doesn't seem needed. And with rough-out leather (or sheepskin), the saddle tends to hold me. Where my thighs go depends far more on the saddle when I ride western than Australian.
> 
> I can't trust my Australian saddle to protect my horse's back.
> 
> I find it feels very different, and I think riding English in a Western saddle is probably an error on the rider's part, as much as riding western in an English saddle is.​




I don't think you give your Aussie (or english) saddles enough credit in terms of dispersing force and "protecting" the back. Assuming you aren't riding like a sack of potatoes and that the saddle fits, you should not be injuring your horse's back just because you happened to ride your trail in the Aussie today instead of the western.

How do you feel riding in various western saddles? Do you feel your position is the same regardless if the saddle happens to have a horn? Do you feel different in an english saddle vs the aussie?

I find the concept of riding english in a western saddle as an odd one.. I ride in a bunch of different saddles and don't feel it makes much difference to my basic eq. I looked for pics taken from roughly the same angle at the same gait to compare.

a Rubicon (english):











a Boz (endurance):











a Freeform (english):











a Stonewall (endurance):











a Torsion (endurance):











So am I riding 'english' in a 'western' (endurance) saddle? Or just _riding_ and pick your saddle of choice?​


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## bsms

*Warning - picture intensive!*

A western saddle distributes weight over a larger area of the back. How much depends on the saddle, but they are designed to carry weight over more area:








​ 







​ 







​ 
That doesn't make my Aussie saddle cruel. I wouldn't be using it if it were. But to give an example, Mia used to think a sitting trot in my Australian saddle was worth slowing for in about 1/4 mile. The first day I rode her in a western saddle, she did the final mile at a sitting trot, and cantered when we got to our little arena. It is, after all, meant to distribute the weight even when a large steer hits the end of a rope.

As such, a western saddle is a very forgiving saddle for a horse. Thus, as I posted earlier:

"_A few statistics bear this out. And Australian stockman, on an American stock-saddle, without changing horses rode from Murray River to Melbourne, 143 miles by the route taken, in twenty six hours. A constable of the Royal North-West Mounted Police, on a forty-two pound stock-saddle, rode from Regina to Wood Mountain Post, 132 miles by sunlight, without changing horses, and his horse bucked him off at the finish. Most of the Mounted Police constables and ranch-hands moving between Fort Macleod and Calgary in the 1890s covered the distance, 108 miles, in a day. Kit Carson with a party of five Mexican gentlemen rode from Los Angeles to San Francisco, 600 miles, in six days, and only two of the party changed horses." (Pages 225-226) - Chenevix Trench, A History of Horsemanship
_
That doesn't mean a modern endurance rider can't do better in a different saddle. They obviously do, or else they would all be riding stock saddles. But the western stock saddle is very good at protecting the back, regardless of the rider.

My Australian saddle feels, to my butt, identical to my Bates Caprilli AP saddle, only not as bouncy. It also offers more security when a horse spins or stumbles, and so I kept it and sold my two English saddles - both Bates, both with CAIR, and I'll never own another saddle with CAIR. 

Western saddles vary in feel. They have two parts:

The tree, which distributes the rider & saddle's weight over the horse's back, and the "ground", put on top of the tree, which distributes the rider's weight over the saddle tree. The ground depends on what the rider wants. This is a saddle a forum member posted a picture of on another thread. Compare it to mine, and to a cutting saddle:








​ 







​ 







​ 
You could make those saddles using the exact same saddle tree. What the saddle maker does in building the ground makes the difference. Comparing those to my Aussie saddle, my western saddle is probably the closest:








​
But if I rest my legs in my western saddle, my leg position and toe position will differ from my Aussie saddle - because the western saddle places the thigh differently, and moves my lower leg off the horse (unless I fold my leg under to bring it back into contact. It HAS to - the "twist" would be much wider, and there is a lot more leather between my knee and the horse:








​
I tend to ride my western saddle in a forward seat, which isn't too surprising since I learned by reading and applying Littauer's writings:








​
But there are good reasons why the vast majority of western riders do NOT ride like that. I'm wrong and they are right:


















​
I'm not attacking English saddles or English riding. But I think it is obvious that the saddles and goals are not identical, and thus how they are employed changes. Just as a fighter pilot's tactics change depending on the ordnance and radar the jet carries, the saddle impacts the best way to ride.

Short of twisting my ankles until they break, I cannot use the same foot position in my western and Australian saddles. My THIGH lies differently, and that results in my FOOT being different. A western saddle is designed to distribute weight on the loin of the horse, which is generally thought a no-no in English saddle design. Unlike my Australian saddle (and western), an English saddle has panels that extend down the front. My western saddle is hard polished leather. It doesn't offer the grip most English saddles do (even my Bates Caprilli CC saddle). And neither my western nor my Australian saddle includes knee rolls.

A western saddle, with the tree extend way beyond the cantle, can handle this approach easily:








​ 
Most English riders consider that an abomination, but their dislike fails to understand the difference in how weight is distributed and in the goals of the rider.

Mia was a picky horse. That was good in a lot of ways. If I rode "on my pockets" in my Australian saddle, she got ****y. In a western saddle, she didn't give a rat's rear.

I tend to take inspiration from cutters. Why? Because in a cutting competition, the horses essentially act the same as a spooking horse...and do so for the entire ride, and with a power my horses cannot match. So I figured early on that if I wanted to stay on a horse who might jump or spin without my asking, maybe cutting riders could teach me a thing or two:











That is why I've taken to following the advice of Larry Trocha more, and Harry Chamberlin less, when riding western:








​
In any case, it was driven home to me today in realizing how much "heels down" helps to anchor my lower leg and provide security while riding in my Australian saddle, while it frankly doesn't seem to do much for me in my western saddle. This advice from Gen Harry Chamberlin & the US Cavalry works well in my Australian saddle. I don't find it very useful in my western one:




















If I didn't value both Littauer and Chamberlin, and if I didn't like and feel good riding in my Aussie saddle, I wouldn't have used it today. I don't think I'm selling it short. I've made a deliberate choice to use it and leave my $1800 custom built saddle sitting on a saddle rack. But what gives me my best result from the horse and most secure feeling seat differs between the two styles.​


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## gottatrot

Nice collection of riding pictures, Phantom, fun to see. One thing that is different with those saddles is I think they all have thinner style stirrup leathers versus the thick fender of a Western saddle. 

I don't ride "the same" on a Western or English saddle, but I also do ride the same on any saddle. So I could argue both points. On the one hand, different saddles do affect your body differently. As BSMS points out, some saddles, particularly Western ones sort of carve out a spot for your body and due to that design and the wide leathers, you end up putting less weight in the stirrups. Some Dressage saddles actually do this too. Versus the very flat profile saddleseat and close contact saddles that attempt to have no influence on the rider's position.

I prefer to ride English, because if that spot the saddle carves out for you is not right for your balance, it becomes difficult to ride effectively. So in a Western saddle that fits you well, you can be safer, but if it fits you wrong and puts you off balance, you may be more likely to come off the horse should worse come to worst. 

Over the years, I believe I've figured out how to find my balance point in various saddles on various horses. So in that way, I ride "the same" in any saddle, because I put my feet under my center of gravity (the "ground"). But where that is can vary a lot. The key factor is that I can rise out of the saddle in balance, and that's just an automatic check for me. I sit, I rise, I adjust my position quickly so that is possible, and then I'm ready to go. 

As much as the saddle affects the balance, I think the horse and the speed and terrain you are riding over affect the rider's balance. Knowing how to find that balance point is very important. If the horse starts trotting or cantering and you find yourself thrust forward or back, the balance point is wrong and you have to adjust by putting your "crouching stance" forward or back. 

Because it is more secure, I believe it is best to try to distribute your weight down the saddle and the horse's side as much as possible in any saddle. Even if I am a bit heavier in the stirrups in an english saddle, I still distribute the weight along the length of my leg and not just into the lower leg. If I need to push the horse forward in order to get the hind legs under her so she can stop more effectively - versus letting the horse fall into the halt - I do not want to just use my calves, but instead the pressure comes primarily from my upper leg. That is much stronger and more effective for me.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I went from four years of western lessons in the Midwest, to a summer of English at a "proper" place on the east coast and then back to western....many, many moons ago. 

I do remember getting "yelled" at for a couple of things when changing over. I know accepted techniques can change over time, so take this with a grain of salt and I can't say whether the instructors were top notch or not, like I said it was a very long time ago and my parents paid for it, not me. 

The English instructor got after me about having my reins too loose, sitting too much on my seat bones, and not using enough leg pressure to cue. When I switched back, the western instructor got after me for being in the horse's mouth and sitting too far forward on the front bones of my pelvis rather than the seat bones. 

I guess my leg just fell into place on both based on the saddle, because neither one got on me about the actual position of the leg. 

Nowadays, no showing involved, I just ride however I need to in order to move with the horse. Forward, backward, sideways 

For me that is most secure on my seat bones and back a bit further than either the pics of Phantom or BSMS. That said, when we gallop I ride more forward with more weight on my stirrups (still on the balls of my feet). I've been riding since 1976 and the last time I came off unintentionally when riding was 1984 and I've ridden a lot of quick, rank, lll mannered horses since then. Anyway, whatever "technique" I've developed might not be perfect according to books or judges, but it seems to work for maintaining a sticky seat at least for me. IMO, the biggest thing is maintaining a loose back at all times, especially when the horse moves suddenly. Instinct is to tense and I think that is where a lot of people come off.


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## tinyliny

I should learn from you all, ' cause I keep coming off, oh about once every 18 months or so.


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## bsms

When I took western lessons, the main position advice I got was to "Get on your pockets!" That is reasonable advice for a western saddle, but it got Mia irritated in my English and Australian saddles. On the whole, I think on your pockets with a limber back is probably optimum for a western saddle.

Littauer taught riding with a firm, slightly hollowed loin. Given the injury I had shortly after I started riding, that was probably the only way I could keep riding. I was protecting my injured back, just as a horse trotting with a heavy rider may tense its back to save it. But using a forward seat in my western saddle changes the balance and puts more pressure to the front of the saddle. Riding like I rode Trooper above, it changes the sweat marks even. It is OK because the saddle distributes weight over a large area and getting my weight a little too forward doesn't bother the horse the way getting it too far back in my Australian one does. And while it isn't optimum (IMHO), it is what my habit patterns are based on. When things go wrong, it is the position my body takes without conscious thought.

Littauer's book was recommended to me by maura, a former moderator here who rode and taught forward riding much of her life. She told me she felt more secure in a close contact jump saddle than a western one because decades of riding made her habit patterns fit the jump saddle better than the western. And that makes perfect sense to me - then and now.

One of the first books I read on riding was "How Your Horse Wants You to Ride" by Gincy Bucklin. She wrote: 

"_There is one particular spot on your foot that is intended to be the center of weight bearing. In martial arts this point is known as the bubbling spring. Riding with your stirrup under the bubbling spring will result in a foot and an ankle that are truly relaxed and flexible, and will give you a feeling of strength and security in the stirrups._"

An English stirrup, IIRC, has a tread about 2" deep. My western stirrup and Australian 4-bar stirrups are about 3 inches. My wife and daughter use western stirrups that are 4" deep. Regardless of the stirrup, I like my bubbling spring to be centered an inch from the front of the stirrup.

As Littauer and Chamberlin taught, I want my center of gravity to allow me to stand in the stirrups at any time and be balanced in them. OK, that isn't true. As I've experimented, there are times I want my feet well forward. It works well in some situations - defensive, or when I need to be stable and predictable for my horse while my horse deals with unstable terrain. But as a rule, I agree with Chamberlin:








​ 
That is what feels right to me, perhaps because that is how I learned it and I'm as stuck in my ways as anyone else can get. That worked for me during a lot of spooks and sideways jumps. I trust it.

But as the Nikkels demonstrated, this centers the balance in a western saddle:


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

bsms said:


> When I took western lessons, the main position advice I got was to "Get on your pockets!"


I dislike the term "on your pockets" when people are teaching beginners. Unless I have droopy drawers jeans, my "pockets" are higher up than I think they are typically on men's pants and if I were to sit on them I'd have hunch over to maintain vertical balance.

I like the way it was described to me as sitting on the rear bones of the pelvis instead. It has a way of making you become aware of your body-seat connection more.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Tiny, have you ever taken dance lessons? Samba, Salsa (not tango because it doesn't use the hips) It's kind of fun and it teaches you to keep that back loose, in control, but loose. 

I swear every time I've seen someone come off it is because they tensed that area of the body. Rigid muscles have less ability to move (in balance) with external movement if that makes sense...


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## phantomhorse13

gottatrot said:


> Over the years, I believe I've figured out how to find my balance point in various saddles on various horses. So in that way, I ride "the same" in any saddle, because I put my feet under my center of gravity (the "ground"). But where that is can vary a lot. The key factor is that I can rise out of the saddle in balance, and that's just an automatic check for me. I sit, I rise, I adjust my position quickly so that is possible, and then I'm ready to go.


This is what I was trying to say (and apparently did not express it well at all).

The important part is finding your ideal balance, whatever you might be sitting on. IMO that is what makes an effective rider, not the specific details of position.


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## bsms

I can sit balanced in my Australian saddle, but I'm more secure if my heels are down and my position anchored by my lower leg in a way that isn't needed in my western saddle. And if I had my saddle made with rough-out leather (and I'm tempted to take it to a saddle repair place and see if they can do that), then it would be easier still.

With Cowboy, it doesn't matter much. It is hard to imagine Cowboy throwing in a tight 180 without giving a LOT of warning. I've ridden him on the trail in my slick seat saddle with my feet out of the stirrups. With a horse like Mia, that would be darn near suicidal. With Bandit...we're getting there.

From Littauer's Common Sense Horsemanship
-----------------------------------
"_4) Then the stirrups will come directly under the body and the rider can at will stand in them as he would on the floor.

When doing this I felt that were the horse to be suddenly withdrawn from under me and my body lowered in that same position to the ground I would find myself standing on the ground, squarely on both my heels.

5) Put part of your weight in the stirrup and, pulling your heels down, feel as if the weight in the stirrups actually went into the heels.

When this happened the muscles of my calf stretched while those in the thigh contracted- this made my leg hard and I was able to grip the saddle more strongly.

6) Tilt your torso forward from the hips - until your body gets balanced in the stirrups.

Then I realized that with only a small inclination forward of my body I was united with my horse moving at the walk.

7) ...When my head was up and my chest open my hollowed loins started pressing the pelvis forward wedging it further into the saddle. With an alert position of the torso I found it easy to balance myself and to remain united with the horse in motion. After I was able to execute the above points I found myself about half standing in the stirrups with a very springy body...

8)... I felt that the benefits of these springs could be lost by: a) greatly decreasing the weight in the stirrups. Without using the stirrups the tension in those springs was completely gone. b) If I pinched the saddle strongly with my knees the flow of weight into the stirrups was partially cut off.

9) At the walk, trot and canter, when the horse behaves, use the grip which merely consists of a permanent, effortless contact between the saddle and the lower thighs, inner surfaces of the knees, and upper calves.

10) During the gallop or jumping, or when the horse misbehaves, increase the frictional grip with these three parts of the leg_."
-----------------------------------------------------
Having learned to ride like that, I expected it to apply to riding western as well. But the difference in saddle means what I learned is not particularly helpful. Leaning forward with a hollow loin isn't helpful in a western saddle and borders on harmful. Heels down, with a taunt lower leg to provide grip if needed, doesn't have the same effect. Is that because there is less lower leg contact? Is it because the shape of the saddle provides more thigh contact, or places the leg further forward? Is it because sliding my feet forward in a western saddle is more relaxing and still provides a brace if needed against a sudden stop?

I don't know. One drawback to western riding is that almost no one writes anything from a theoretical view. Most books on western riding, frankly, steal from dressage books without regard. The guy I took a quarter's worth of lessons from in college, for example, repeats the dressage position in his text. However, in 100 pictures of him riding, the only time he USED that position was in the photo taken at a stand still illustrating the 'correct' position.

A lot of people complain a western saddle "puts me in a chair seat" - which it often does, if you define a chair seat as 'heels anywhere forward of the hip'. Not all do that. Our Abetta leaves my heels so far back that I feel like I'm going to fall. But most will tend to put the heel forward of the belt buckle - and that position results in an even distribution of weight in the saddle as measured by instruments on the horse's back. It IS balanced, if you want your weight evenly distributed by a typical western saddle tree.

As I've ridden western the last few years, I've drifted away from Littauer...but am reverting quickly when back in my Australian saddle again. That is what I meant by riding English in a western saddle or riding western in an English one.

It isn't only balance, but how one can regain that balance if it is disturbed. The video Reiningcatsanddogs posted a while ago about how the natural balance of a woman allows her to keep her heels under her hip and lift a chair, while men cannot - that suggests to me that a woman can recover her balance if her horse does something that tilts her upper body forward even with her heels directly under her hip, but that a man might not. The higher center of gravity of the man puts him more at risk if his balance is disturbed too far forward of his hips.

Littauer postulated that there were two rules that applied to all correct riding positions:

1 - Are you in fluid balance with your horse?

2 - Can you give the cues you need?

Perhaps there is a third:

3 - Can you regain your balance if your horse does the unexpected?

The last is pretty critical to keeping the horse between you and the ground, assuming your horse sometimes moves without being asked! And how one regains their balance to get back in synch may depend on things like body build, saddle type and construction, how aggressively the horse departs from the expected, etc.

Just thinking out loud. The part of riding that gives me pleasure is trying to get my horse and I mentally together. But another thing that fascinates me is the tack used and how it affects our riding. How does a curb bit work? Is it just increased leverage? (No, IMHO). How does a 3" wide stirrup leather affect one's riding, versus 1" wide? What is a chair seat, and do saddles put us in one? Why do instructors tell people to use a certain position, and does that change with goals and saddle type? Very few instructors, judging from their writings, contemplate "Why?" I do...which is part of why I've gone thru so many saddles, stirrups, bits, reins, mixed English and Western tack, tried sheepskin, bucking rolls, etc. I don't think I've ever seen a book discuss how our tack influences our riding.


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> Having learned to ride like that, I expected it to apply to riding western as well. But the difference in saddle means what I learned is not particularly helpful. Leaning forward with a hollow loin isn't helpful in a western saddle and borders on harmful. Heels down, with a taunt lower leg to provide grip if needed, doesn't have the same effect. Is that because there is less lower leg contact? Is it because the shape of the saddle provides more thigh contact, or places the leg further forward? Is it because sliding my feet forward in a western saddle is more relaxing and still provides a brace if needed against a sudden stop?...
> 
> ...And how one regains their balance to get back in synch may depend on things like body build, saddle type and construction, *how aggressively the horse departs from the expected*, etc...
> 
> ...Very few instructors, judging from their writings, contemplate "Why?" I do...which is part of why I've gone thru so many saddles, stirrups, bits, reins, mixed English and Western tack, tried sheepskin, bucking rolls, etc. I don't think I've ever seen a book discuss how our tack influences our riding.


Looking at pictures of me riding in a Western saddle and trying to remember exactly how it feels. One thing I'm thinking is that if you don't put your leg forward (or wherever the saddle places your leg naturally), then the fender interferes with your contact. The thick fender is definitely a factor since it is not a passive piece of equipment. It creates a stable leg, and protects the rider from sweat and heavy brush and from chafing. If you put your leg forward a bit more, you are able to let your lower leg rest passively on the horse. If you put it back, the fender gets in the way.

I agree with Tinyliny, it's very lucky to not have come off a horse for so long. I'm rather positive there are many other factors to coming off a horse rather than tensing a part of the body, including the lower back. There are times I've been riding loosely when a horse slipped and I didn't even have time to know the horse _had_ slipped before I was on the ground. And I've viewed some lovely, loose and balanced acrobatics good riders have taken prior to reaching the ground. Perhaps tension might factor into certain telegraphed spooks or bucks, but I could write a book about the 101 ways to come off a horse. But as I've said, there are horses that are far better than others at getting people off. Amore has a particular talent where she vanishes like the Cheshire cat, leaving behind only a grin. Which is why she taught me how to actually have a secure seat, and why I've come off Halla less than ten times over the years (and at least two of those she fell down), off all the other horses I've ridden in life less than five *total*, but off Amore innumerable times. 









Something I was thinking about today is that quite a few stock horses run with this type of balance. I have tried cantering and galloping in a forward seat in an English saddle with this type of movement and it creates balance problems for the horse. A big motor with a build that tends toward downhill can put the rider very forward, and a saddle that helps put the rider back with the feet farther forward can help. If your torso is upright or back, you can't balance if the feet are too far back. Speed makes this worse, and that's when you can really find out if you are using your knee as a pivot point, because you _will_ pivot around it when the horse takes off (been there).

My guess is tack has come about both from the job a person was doing and also the type of horse you were riding. I was looking at pictures of cutting horses using both stock horses and Arabians. I noticed the stock horses' riders were using a Western seat with legs farther forward, and that the Arab riders were using a more forward seat. Although stock horses can have a very fast acceleration, I've never come over the back of the saddle on one. I have come over the back on an Arab cross, on Amore, and on a TB. I think with some builds you're more likely to shoot over the horse's head, and with some you're more likely to come off the back. And some few horses can get you either way. If a horse is going to stop suddenly or is built downhill, it is more balanced to have your feet forward and your balance back. If a horse is built uphill or is going to accelerate out from under you, it behooves you to have your feet a bit farther back and your balance more forward.








Here's a TB racing where the rider looks like he'd rather not get shot off the back of the saddle.








Here's QH racing where the riders look like they'd rather not get shot off over the horse's head.


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## tinyliny

@gottatrot:

_I am sooooo glad you are on this board. you say much that I would say , if I were as smart as you, or as experienced. well said, sister.


_


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## gottatrot

tinyliny said:


> _I am sooooo glad you are on this board.
> _


Ditto to you, it's a great place to learn.  Plus peoples' eyes glaze over if you talk too much about horses elsewhere.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

gottatrot said:


> I agree with Tinyliny, it's very lucky to not have come off a horse for so long. I'm rather positive there are many other factors to coming off a horse rather than tensing a part of the body, including the lower back. There are times I've been riding loosely when a horse slipped and I didn't even have time to know the horse _had_ slipped before I was on the ground. And I've viewed some lovely, loose and balanced acrobatics good riders have taken prior to reaching the ground. Perhaps tension might factor into certain telegraphed spooks or bucks, but I could write a book about the 101 ways to come off a horse. But as I've said, there are horses that are far better than others at getting people off. Amore has a particular talent where she vanishes like the Cheshire cat, leaving behind only a grin. Which is why she taught me how to actually have a secure seat, and why I've come off Halla less than ten times over the years (and at least two of those she fell down), off all the other horses I've ridden in life less than five *total*, but off Amore innumerable times.


I agree and disagree. Luck may have something to do with it to a point, but there ARE indeed other factors that play a roll. Over 40 years of regular riding, I doubt that luck is the primary factor. 

Over the years where I was coming off, I came off fairly equally front and back despite having ridden almost exclusively QH's. 

QH's have a higher percentage of fast twitch muscle than Arabs or TB (slow twitch/endurance) and while they may not spook as often as some other hotter breeds, when they do, it happens very quickly and very powerfully. 

The pics you showed of the racing and the jockey's positions may also have as much to do with the length of the race itself, the point in the race at which the picture was taken and the importance each sport places upon reducing friction, drag and using draft to their advantage. 

Horse racing: Scientists say secret of success is the pack 

Is keeping a pliable back the only factor? No, but it is one common factor I have seen in all people coming off, they might stay soft for a moment or two but get a hair off balance and tense to correct...then they're off. Combined with other factors, not the least of which is the saddle you ride, it certainly will not hurt to stay soft in such a situation.


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## gottatrot

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> I agree and disagree. Luck may have something to do with it to a point, but there ARE indeed other factors that play a roll. Over 40 years of regular riding, I doubt that luck is the primary factor.


I agree that luck is not a primary factor for staying on horses. I'm the first to say everyone should learn techniques to help them stay on better. 
However, "unluck" can be a factor for people coming off horses. 

For instance, in my experience: A slightly missed turn, front legs getting tangled in brush and the horse falling onto her face in the bushes. Trotting along, the two legs on the ground slip out and the horse is suddenly parallel to the ground and six inches above it. Then the horse rights herself just in the nick of time...while gravity has already claimed the rider. Tack fails. Bees sting horses right in the sheath. Something falls on the horse's head. Trees grab people or horses. 


Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Over the years where I was coming off, I came off fairly equally front and back despite having ridden almost exclusively QH's.
> 
> QH's have a higher percentage of fast twitch muscle than Arabs or TB (slow twitch/endurance) and while they may not spook as often as some other hotter breeds, when they do, it happens very quickly and very powerfully.


I should clarify: I wasn't meaning coming off the horse more to the back or the front. I was meaning coming over the back of the saddle versus riding on the horse's neck. QHs are the fastest sprinters and can accelerate extremely fast. Those fast twitch muscles make them the best over short distances. But speaking of tack and why it was made certain ways...you're more likely to have too sudden of a stop on a QH than too sudden of an acceleration. On a reining horse, you say whoa and you better prepared or you will end up on the horse's neck. 

During a spook, a person that falls might end up in a variety of ways, and yes, QHs can spook fast and powerfully (IMO Arabs do win the prize, though). 
We used to have running spots that the horses were used to, and took a variety of horses and breeds out and galloped them. Knowing where they were supposed to run, the horses would take off like they were going out of a starting gate when we gave them the command.

The sprinter types had a good "launch" as we called it, but their build tended to take the rider with them. It might actually be due to them having that bigger motor, that it would send the rider forward. But with some of the TB/Arab types the launch could (and did on several occasions) send the rider over the back of the saddle if we weren't in a forward seat. None of us fell off, we just started our gallop behind the saddle on the horse's loin and had to lift and throw ourselves back over into the saddle against the horse's momentum. I didn't fall off the horses when I went over the back of the saddle (except Amore -she's not one to keep going in a straight line to assist you with getting back in place). 

I was watching some video of the NFR finals barrel racing, and those women were riding in a western seat despite the fast and powerful sprints their horses are known for coming out of the gate. It seems they also are more concerned about ending up too forward rather than too far back...and their horses do have amazingly fast stopping power. 
When I first started Halla I did not ride her forward seat because is built downhill with powerful muscles and stopping power. She'd stop dead so fast I'd end up hitting my chest on her neck and with her ear inside my nose. 

And I do agree that being overly tense does contribute to people coming off horses. The right tension applied at the right time will prevent someone from coming off. 

I'm sure there were other reasons for the way western saddles are made, but I think watching cutting and reining classes that the build of the horses and what they did with them helped develop the way the saddles are made. Therefore I'm not sure we should be so quick to say that everyone should ride in a certain alignment regardless of saddle or discipline.


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## bsms

My age when I started, the horse I started on and the environment I'm learning in have probably all driven me to look for ways of staying on, including "cheating". I'm 100% certain that some tack and some positions work better than others. The Australian saddle I bought in Jan 2009 kept me on when Lilly spooked and spun and leaped just weeks after I was hurt, and did so without any assistance from my body. Sheepskin does act like butt velcro for me, although I have mixed feelings because it also raises me higher and forces my legs to spread wider - and my legs don't spread well at all. Riding with feet in the "home" position is extremely common in sports where the movement is fast and unpredictable. I think it is obvious that a bucking horse is easier to stay on when riding with a long leg than a short one, although plenty of people can stick to a horse regardless.

But I also wonder how much boils down to training our bodies by putting ourselves in progressively more challenging situations, just like I've been working on Bandit's balance by giving him small hills to work, then slightly taller one, and slightly steeper ones. I just look at some pictures of ropers...and I'll be darned if I can imagine how they stay on!








​ 







​ 
Not many use their lower leg as an anchor of their position! How much of it is just athletic ability? Same with barrel racers:

















​ 
But as I look, a LOT do look like this:








​ 







​ 
The last guy's position seems like a good starting point for a western rider. That balances the saddle for even distribution of weight and looks like the 'center' position in sports - ie, in racquetball you may lunge to one side to take a shot, but then return to the center because it sets you up for the next shot.

What I do NOT see in western riding are things like:

Ball of foot in stirrup.

Toes front.

Straight vertical line thru shoulder - hip - heel.

Heels down.​ ​ In fact, I don't see much emphasis on "position" at all! If anything, it seems they are all following the advice of phantomhorse13:



phantomhorse13 said:


> ...The important part is finding your ideal balance, whatever you might be sitting on. IMO that is what makes an effective rider, not the specific details of position.


Or maybe they are instinctively following Littauer's advice on artistry, and focusing on what "WE" - both horse and rider - are trying to do rather than "ME" - my position, my balance, my movement. Maybe my anal emphasis on what _*I*_ do riding detracts from becoming one with my horse. Although, in my defense...learning to ride by riding Mia in neighborhoods and the desert made for a tough way to learn!

Given that Bandit is a fundamentally saner horse, who may get excited but who will calm and focus quickly too, perhaps what _*I*_ need to do is try for the next level of learning, where it is *WE* riding *together* instead of *ME* riding *him*...

:think:​


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

bsms said:


> *But I also wonder how much boils down to training our bodies by putting ourselves in progressively more challenging situations*, just like I've been working on Bandit's balance by giving him small hills to work, then slightly taller one, and slightly steeper ones. I just look at some pictures of ropers...and I'll be darned if I can imagine how they stay on!



I think the highlighted portion has a lot to do with it.

BTW one of the reasons that I advocate *not* getting into the habit of leaning forward, ESPECIALLY with performance horses is an instance that my daughter had with Cowboy, who is a performance bred QH, AQHA competitive in the higher levels of team roping. (someone blew him out when he was five)

DD wants Cowboy to be her move up horse. So for the last six months or so, I have been riding him and getting him back into work. Our instructor came to the house to give us a lesson (I got my boarder a lesson with him for HS graduation). So after 1/2 hour of me riding him, my daughter wanted to ride him. 

Okay, he's kind of spooky, but he's generally a good boy especially in the arena, M is a pretty decent rider with good balance. Cowboy is 16.1 h and pushing 1300# and very obedient (not a thinker, blindly obedient). 

Instructor says he thinks she can handle him, I think she can handle him so DD, gets on; my saddle's stirrups even on the shortest setting are too long for her but since she spent the last three years riding either bareback or without stirrups, nothing new. 

She walks two laps...looking a bit like a flea on an elephant's butt, but sitting good and in control. Instructor says get ready to trot, but before he can tell her how to properly cue him, she lifts her reins, leans forward slightly in the seat and taps her legs on his sides.

He takes off like he is coming out of the gate after a calf.....full gallop. At this point she is in a panic, taken completely by surprise. I'm yelling at her to just ride it out, she's holding on for dear life, on the second turn in the arena he starts to slow to a canter and he loses his footing in the dirt and down he goes with my daughter on his back. He fell on her.

She was shaken up and had a bruise on her ankle and her leg the next day but luckily that was all. The only difference in the way she cued him and the way I cued him was that she rolled forward onto her forward pelvic bones. 

Performance horses like y'all are talking about (ropers, reiners, cutters) are highly trained to seat cues. Even my Ghost who was just the rancher's lead string horse on a small local ranch is trained to the seat. All I have to do is roll my hips onto those front pelvic bones and he goes to a trot, roll back onto the coccyx he slows, stay there he stops. 

Likewise, Oliver is trained to the seat. If I was to lean forward, he won't take off like Cowboy, but he will speed up, without a leg cue. My seat tells him to speed up, my leg tells him how fast. And yes, Whoa, brings an immediate stop for both of the working horses and you better be ready for it. (though these days, Ghost no longer rides). 'Easy" is the verbal cue to slow.

If that position is good for the way you ride and works for you and your horses then that is wonderful, just be careful if you ever have the opportunity to ride a horse trained for western working competition, especially if that horse is trained to ask no questions and do exactly as they are told.


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## bsms

I'm not liking what happened to your daughter, but you make an excellent point. And most of what Bandit and I are doing now involves him understanding what I'm thinking plus VERY simple cues! And I fully understand I do NOT want a well trained performance horse! The training not only would be wasted on me, but it would take me months of re-training to get the horse to something I wanted to ride. That is kind of like Bandit, whose training was very different than how I like to ride. He thought just lifting the reins meant slam on the brakes, while I like to use contact sometimes (and Bandit does now, too).

The screenshot below were taken about 1 second apart. It was a record setting performance, and I would HATE to ride a horse that way:








​ 
I can appreciate the skill that goes in to the training and riding, but I like my cantering smooth and forward. Besides, when I watch reining or dressage, it seems the rider is cueing the horse every stride and I am far too lazy to want that! I suspect Bandit may take me to my 70th birthday, and maybe beyond, so I might never buy another horse. If I did, it would be either Arabian, Mustang or a mix of the two. And ideally it would be green broke, because the simple cues of a green broke horse covers most of what I want - that, plus saddle time so we can understand each other.

Just finished a short ride on Bandit. Removed the butt velcro. No western poleys (bucking rolls). Smooth, polished leather. And FWIW, my "central position" NEEDED heels down. Without sheepskin, weight flowing uninterrupted into my heels really helped.

Apart from that, I just concentrated on balancing and what WE were doing. Bandit's hooves were trimmed yesterday, maybe a little more on the backs than I wanted, and our paths are still super rocky after the rains. We went off trail a number of times because the desert is softer than the trails. We did our first solo canter in the desert - and Bandit was totally fine with it. Didn't object to cantering, but had no desire to keep cantering out of excitement. Maybe all those miles he cantered in races taught him to save it for a race...


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## bsms

Post-ride reward....Nom Nom Nom...you can remove the saddle later...Nom Nom Nom!!










Be glad when fly season is over. :icon_rolleyes:


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## Zexious

^Loving the chrome <3


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## phantomhorse13

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> If that position is good for the way you ride and works for you and your horses then that is wonderful, just be careful if you ever have the opportunity to ride a horse trained for western working competition, especially if that horse is trained to ask no questions and do exactly as they are told.


I can verify this!

Many years ago, i used to work with a (wealthy) guy who would pull likely-looking horses from the local auction (New Holland) and work them a bit and then re-home them - generally to local 4H or Pony Club kids at super reasonable prices. We picked up a skin-and-bones plain bay QH and brought it home. Fed it up for a bit, then I got on for the test ride. The horse had obviously been well schooled on the ground and took the saddle on the longe with no issues. I climbed on (in my english saddle) and sat for a minute. No reaction, just quietly standing horse. I shifted my weight to adjust my stirrup.. and that horse spun around. I managed to stay on more by dumb luck than anything. We were both stunned, esp as after the 360, the horse stood totally still again. It took us stupid english-based people a little bit to realize we had an exceptionally well-trained reining horse on our hands! But boy did I learn to sit still.. :rofl:


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## bsms

Posted this on the over 50 thread. Didn't expect to write so much.



bsms said:


> I rode Trooper for the second time in 2-3 years, and the first time in the arena in at least 2 years. After my daughter fell a few weeks ago, she lost her mojo. So I thought we would take turns riding Trooper in the arena today to help her gain confidence.
> 
> She rode first, for about 15 minutes. She was tense. The girl who used to canter Trooper lap after lap with her feet out of the stirrups and the reins tied to the horn only managed to trot a few times for about 6-7 strides, then slowed down.
> 
> Then it was my turn. Trooper has NEVER liked me, and he was visibly tense when I mounted up - and stayed tense for my 15 minutes. He also hasn't been ridden with any contact except for me - and this was my second time on him in several years. No, he is not used to contact of any kind, and very tense and inverted with me on his back. I hesitate to post this because it is so awful looking, but we spent 15 minutes struggling and fighting, even:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> I needed my stirrups shorter, but it would have been ugly regardless. When the horse sticks his head up in the sky and you are just about to mount, you know it isn't going to be fun!
> 
> So then it was my daughter's turn...and maybe my struggles with Trooper helped. Trooper was ready to relax, and he and my daughter started to fall back into their groove:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> She went for 20 minutes before calling it quits, and trotted multiple laps with Trooper. She wasn't truly relaxed on him, but she made progress. For his part, I think Trooper was THRILLED to have her back on...:icon_rolleyes:
> 
> She has always had pretty good balance on him, but she is a VERY undemanding rider. More like a passenger on a very willing horse. Trooper...there was a time I rode him daily for about 8 months, and he was steering with leg and would canter or gallop relaxed with me. But that was some years ago, and he's mainly been ridden by my daughter since. I rode Trooper on the trails a few weeks ago and he calmed down as soon as we exited the arena with the other horse.
> 
> But Bandit and I have become a team. We both might get fussy with the other sometimes, but we both fundamentally trust the other. WE ride TOGETHER.
> 
> There was none of that with Trooper today. Nada. Zilch! It was one of those times where, when you're throwing your leg over the horse's back, you find yourself thinking, "_Oh D___! Am I really going to do this?_" Happily, Trooper didn't buck or actually fight, but we were two separate entities struggling. Absolutely no "WE" going on!
> 
> But on a plus note, I think he was so glad to go back to my daughter that she started to relax on him. She doesn't have her mojo back, but she's starting down that road. Maybe I helped. The Dad in me never knows what is right. Sure wish I could be a TV Dad and always have the answers...


I need to ride Trooper regularly. He needs the exercise, and he needs to have a rider expect more of him. My daughter got a short video of us cantering. Trooper was flopping his head around, inverted, tense. I was bouncing and unable to get get any rhythm with him. He wanted to drop his head, but I suspected he would buck if he could and wanted him to keep his head higher. He didn't like that at all. Tried raising his head way up, so I raised my hands with him and kept the pressure until his head dropped, then released. It was the only time he tried that.

The few moments when he relaxed, I let him stop and grab some grass. He was improving over my 15 minutes, but I just haven't had to deal with that much tension in quite a while. It made me realize how far Bandit and I have come. WE ride. And WE riding together is vastly more fun than what Trooper and I did today. 

But he did settle a little, and he was SOOOOO happy to have my daughter back on his back!

It doesn't look like it, but a shorter stirrup would have helped me. I was reaching to keep the stirrup on. I could have relaxed and followed better with the stirrup a hole shorter. It was a very good day to have the butt velcro on! It would have been really rough without it.

But I was never in danger of coming off, and sometimes "_I'm going to continue with what I want and you need to adjust to me because I'm not going to let you take control_" seems fair to me. But 15 minutes was 15 minutes of hard work! I'll take 2 hours on Bandit anytime over that...except I think Trooper needs it. But I had forgotten how much easier it is when WE ride as opposed to I'm riding you!

Time for some Motrin!


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## gottatrot

> I hesitate to post this because it is so awful looking, but we spent 15 minutes struggling and fighting, even:


It doesn't look bad, what it looks like is a rider in good position on the horse, and a horse that is a bit revved up and difficult to follow at the moment. It looks like it was a bit of work, but sounds like he needed it. Judging from the pictures, everything worked out well and the end result was a relaxed horse. 

It's funny though, you can sure see some attitude from Trooper in the first photo. I'd be thinking, "Are you planning to buck me off today?"


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## bsms

I'm the only person Trooper has ever tried to buck off. He wasn't successful and hasn't tried it since...but something inside me said he was thinking about trying it again. That was part of why I kept his head up. He would have it up and his back inverted, and then would try to lower his head with his back still tense. No thanks!

The other photo from that day of me riding is this one:








​ 
That is not "contact". That is "_I don't trust you! Your head is not going down._"​ 
This older picture is of the last time I rode him in the arena several years ago. See any "WE" there? Nope! This, again, is not contact. This is a fight:










Compare me riding Bandit about a month after he arrived - beginning stages, but WE are riding:​







​ 
Trooper has always disliked me. When I ride him regularly, he calms down and accepts me, but he never likes me. Mia sometimes lost her mind, or got scared, or would get ****y...but she never disliked me! At worst, we were friends with different ideas. Or she was darned scared. But she never, ever gave me any feeling of ill intent.

Bandit and I sometimes have disagreements too. He's not nearly as affectionate as Mia was, but he trusts me and shows no sign of disliking anyone. There are things I dislike about how he was ridden before, but he came here _genuinely liking people_. That is a compliment to his previous owner, IMHO, and one of the best ones possible. He just sometimes disagrees, or can be pushed until he can't take it, and then he tries to survive. There is no ill will involved, just a horse protecting himself and asserting what he thinks in the only way he knew how - so I've needed to teach him more productive ways of disagreeing. But I've never thought, "_He dislikes me_." There is no animosity.

Trooper dislikes me. I don't know if it was how he was spurred on the Colorado ranch (not his home ranch). He doesn't dislike other men. Maybe it was because he was in love with Mia, and I kept taking Mia away from him - and Mia obviously liked me a lot more than she did Trooper. (She barely tolerated Trooper...) But whatever it is, he dislikes me, and has disliked me for so long and for so little reason that I now dislike him. I respect him for what he does with other riders. He is in many ways an excellent horse. But if it was just me, I'd get rid of him in a heartbeat.

When I ride him, there is no "We". I will dominate him or he will dominate me. On the trail, he does better because I think he then feels he needs me to keep him safe. In the arena, he doesn't need me or want me or like me - and I feel the same in reverse. Now. I really tried to like him, but I can't do it. I tried to put my feelings aside for the ride, but when I go to mount and his head goes way up and he is braced before I have weight in the stirrup...

Some horses and some people just do not belong together. Riding him did make me appreciate Bandit all the more. Mia too! And Cowboy! We are riding together beats the tar out of I'm riding you - but sometimes you take what you have and go from there. :icon_rolleyes:


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## bsms

*My wife's informal riding lessons*

My wife and I went riding for the first time in a couple of weeks. She was unexpectedly offered a part-time job, which seems to be turning into near full time work. Good for our finances, not so good for riding time!

As usual, Bandit and I led. Bandit turned on his own initiative early on and took us toward a narrow wash he dislikes...so I went along. Near the entry point, one drops down twice, then passes a burnt log (it looks like people spend the night or party there sometimes) and then drops again into the actual wash. Bandit disliked the burnt wood. We waited for about 15 seconds, then I asked my wife to take the lead. Cowboy dropped down to the level of the burnt wood and hugged the shrubs to give himself the biggest distance from it - but he went! And Bandit then had a choice - not go, follow Cowboy, or push past Cowboy to regain the lead. As much as he disliked the burnt wood, he disliked being a follower even more, so we pressed past, cutting to the inside of Cowboy & my wife, then dropped into the narrow wash.

My wife is getting into the spirit of things. She praised Cowboy for taking the lead, and Bandit for being willing to cut between them and the burnt wood.

It was our first time in that narrow wash since the heavy rains. We both got a surprise. About a dozen times during the next 200 yards, the footing went out from underneath Bandit. It would look like solid sand, and then one foot would drop 6-8 inches. Or a section of sand would slide sideways, typically taking Bandit's rear feet with it. I asked, and my wife said it was happening to Cowboy too.

The difference was this:

Cowboy would respond, "Don't worry, I've got this!"

Bandit was saying, "What the heck!? Do YOU know what is going on?" And I didn't. I've never had that happen to me, not on foot or on a horse.

So after a couple hundred yards and a dozen drops, I stopped, dismounted, and led Bandit. I didn't think it fair to ask him to work on his balance with me on top. To his credit, he never acted like he was going to stop going, or run away, or turn, or balk...but he was having a problem. I had adopted the Old West straight leg forward style. That makes me very predictable, and I figured he needed me to be predictable more than he needed my "help". But he was uncomfortable with what was happening.

I explained to my wife that while Bandit was still willing, my bargain with him was that we would face problems together - that Bandit was never alone, and I'd do my best to help him. So I led him for another couple hundred yards, until the wash had widened out and it wasn't happening. Then I mounted up.

My wife told me she was really starting to love Cowboy. "_I've heard about bonding with a horse, but I've never experienced it. But I'm much more confident than I was, and Cowboy responds and we are doing this together. He's taking care of me, but he is also feeding off of my belief we can do it!_"

I had never talked to her about my theory on the power of "WE", but since she mentioned it...

I explained that while horses are social animals, they also tend to keep an element of competitiveness and hierarchy. Some horses - Bandit and Mia and Trooper and Cowboy fit this - may get along OK, but they don't totally click as a team. A human offers a non-competitive acceptance that most other horses do not give. In that sense, I think we can become a friend that they can trust and respond to in a way they rarely get to with other horses - and they love it as much as we do.

In this case, using different methods, we were both supporting our horses and encouraging them, and they, in turn, were trying hard for us.

To me, this is why I don't worry about formal lessons. My wife is discovering balance with Cowboy in a tougher environment than an arena. But she is also discovering how a horse can interact with a human, and how both can build each other up. She made the comment, "_The more I trust him, the more he trusts me, and the more we work together as a team._" That was music to my ears, and something I think a lot of people miss out on in formal lessons.

We had to keep our ride today short because we had to meet some people at our house...but my wife asked for (and got) an extension thru another wash just because she was enjoying the time outside. That wash had better footing, but we did end up turning back to keep our appointment.

Also...climbing out of the washes, I tried again using the forward leg approach. It worked very well. It put my weight into my thighs, with a forward balance. Very different from the traditional approach of being in a vertical line, but Bandit seemed very comfortable with it! This guy, who rode his 800 lb stallion thru hundreds of miles of extremely rough terrain, would have appreciated it:








​ 
People can complain, and it LOOKS like I'd be heavy in my seat...but it felt good to me and Bandit seemed happy. It isn't optimum for a lot of things. But climbing up out of a wash with uneven footing, or walking thru a wash where the footing was giving way unexpectedly...it worked very well for us.

But mostly, I was proud of my wife's informal lessons and results. She is learning how to work WITH her horse. She's discovering how much fun it is to have a horse respond and work with his rider. *"The Power of We"* works both ways. It is intoxicating to horses, but to my wife and I as well. When you can feel your horses saying, "_We did it, together!_" - that has to be one of the great experiences in riding!

Bandit will never have Mia's looks. But in his defense, I never even considered trying with her what Bandit and I did today. I always trusted her good intentions, but I couldn't trust her judgment. Bandit is learning good judgment...with some help from me, and that help is based on what I learned from riding Mia. The pity is that I didn't know how to take that approach, or even conceived of it existing, when I got Mia. I wish her well, and I'm glad she has a foal, but in part due to her help...Bandit is a much better ride for me.








​ 
Heck, he's starting to be a better looking horse, too!










And along with Mia, I got some help from a long dead cavalry officer:

"...There is another thing to be considered with regard to the horse's character - *it loves to exercise its powers*, and it possesses a great spirit of emulation; *it likes variety of scene and amusement* ; and under a rider that understands how to *indulge it in all this without overtaxing its powers*, will work willingly to the last gasp,which is what entitles it to the name of a noble and generous animal...

..Horses don't like to be ennuye, and will rather stick at home than go out to be bored ; *they like amusement, variety, and society* : give them their share of these, but never in a pedantic way, and avoid getting into a groove of any kind, either as to time or place..."

On Seats and Saddles, by Francis Dwyer, Major of Hussars in the Imperial Austrian Service (1868)​


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## bsms

This is the "head" of the wash closest to me. Until about 6 weeks ago, there was a clogged culvert and just dirt. The road sometimes cracked after a rain, so they finally decided to fix it. They put in a new and larger culvert, added a bunch of dirt and rock, then added concrete. Hopefully this will last.

But this may be why the wash was so freaky when we last rode down it. It may be getting a lot of water flow it wasn't getting before, or at least in a different manner. The picture also shows why I call the washes the "Interstates of the Desert". It gets much narrow and deeper just around the bend, but you can see how dropping into a wash and following it for a half mile can be much easier riding than going across the countryside:








​ 
But that doesn't mean it is a good place to run a horse. Just under the sand is a lot of rock, and I've jogged it enough to know that what looks like good footing can be very uneven in reality. I've twisted my ankle on "smooth sand", so I figure my horse could get hurt too. And as we discovered the other day, "firm sand" can have holes underneath...

But I'll admit, THAT section of wash might be good for a canter for a few hundred yards. I'll check it out in my jogging shoes sometime soon.


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## bsms

*"That's not a bug! It's a feature!"*

I nearly posted this on the ongoing thread about bit scars, but it is well off the OP's original and long forgotten question, and I'm pretty sure anything I write on that thread will be taken in a way it wasn't meant, regardless. So I'll put it here:

*Is it a bug, or a feature?*​ 
When I worked military test and acquisition, a running joke is that those of us on the test side would tell the contractor, "You have a bug in your design" and the contractor would reply, "That's not a bug! It's a feature!"

When I rode Bandit around the block this morning - and that was ALL we did today - he got nervous three times. My youngest was walking along on foot, talking. Two of the times, she spotted coyotes very close by (a dozen yards or so, just to one side in the brush). The third time, nothing. Bandit never stopped going forward, but he was clearly uncomfortable. He isn't afraid of coyotes, but he seriously dislikes them. [_Note: There is a house visible in the picture in the previous post. One of the coyote spots was next to that house's front._]

I went back to the third spot, took a closer look on foot, and that neighbor had sprayed his yard with herbicide. That may sound odd, but around here, many yards are gravel to save on water bills, and he had sprayed his to kill the plants. So what I couldn't see, my horse could smell - and it was a poison, after all.

If my horse goes on a higher state of alert when he smells something, is it a hole in his training? A bug, or a feature?

When we pass trash cans on garbage day, and he passes by 15 but gets very upset by #16, it seems like a "bug". But when we are in the desert, and he smells something that seems wrong, and it is a rattlesnake, it seems more like a "feature". *What is bad behavior in one context is good in another.* I don't particularly want to descend into a wash, and then discover myself surrounded by coyotes or javelina. I don't want to be strolling down a trail and surprise a rattlesnake. I want my horse to use his senses to warn me.

Of course, when he warns me about a yard sprayed with herbicide or pesticide, or if is a garbage can with rotting meat inside, that doesn't sound so good. But from HIS perspective, he is behaving just the same and warning his rider that something seems wrong. He'll press by if I tell him to, but he'll first make it clear he is very concerned! If I try to train him not to warn me of foul smelling garbage cans, would he stop warning me about foul-smelling predators in the brush?

He also gets very competitive going fast with another horse. His previous owner used him for relay races common in NE Arizona and NW New Mexico. They used him on the final leg. In part because he was fast, but mostly because he was competitive. If he could see another horse beating him, he'd give his very best to pull ahead. That isn't a bug! It's a feature!

To me, a reining hose taught to spin hard is a huge bug! Yet reining trainers work hard to install that bug. It's a feature!

There are times Bandit's competitiveness is a pain. I'd like him to trot side by side with other horses. OTOH, if and when my wife is confident enough to gallop with Cowboy...little 13.0 hands, fatty Cowboy can be competitive, and he and Bandit seem to genuinely like each other. They play together at times and often share food together. Skinny 15.0 hand Bandit would have no trouble beating fat little Cowboy...but I suspect he'd merely win by a little...just like when they play. But that competitiveness could be fun if my riding companions wanted to try. 

*One person's "training hole" is another person's "training goal"*. As my farrier pointed out, if I wanted a totally submissive horse, I own the wrong breed. Mustang-Arabian mixes are not known for shutting off their thinkers and just obeying. I like that, most of the time. But not always, I'll admit!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I think when people talk about “holes in training” they are talking of things that a typical horse with a typical rider would be expected to be able to do without difficulty.

For a western rider that would be something such as stand tied, know leg cues, ride on a loose rein or with contact, stop, go, lead politely, stand still for mounting, not baulking when a rider tells the horse to move on……Spins are advance training and not something you will accidentally trigger inadvertently, the cue for it is actually a series of cues and releases even though it might not look like it.

I also like that my horse will tell me when there is something I need to be aware of, but Oliver really is quite exceptional at filtering out the real from the imagined, which is also appreciated. I like my horse to inform me on a need to know basis rather than trying to fill me in on every little detail. I do have eyes and ears of my own after all! Give me at least a little credit. 

I don’t need him to tell me that the stump we have passed by 100 times before, looks different today in a different light or that this garbage can is a new addition from our previous ride. 

On our rides over the years, because Oliver proved himself worthy on numerous occasions, my trainer actually learned to listen to Oliver. I would shout up ahead/behind to my trainer that there were deer coming (he broke three ribs after some deer spooked his horse a few years back). If Oliver said there was something not right about the ground around a creek or boggy area, we found somewhere else to cross. 

There is such a thing as being hyper sensitive and it can get annoying. I have ridden horses that alerted at every-little-thing outside the arena and it is a PITA (My Cowboy). A lot of it though has to do with Cowboy's personality and our interactive chemistry. 

He will go past and do as he is told, but he is on edge. He is much less hyper-alert when he rides with my husband and with Oliver along for the ride. Bottom line is that Cowboy doesn't trust me as much, but he will obey me (Respect?). 

I can understand why that hyper signaling can be perceived as a hole in training especially with a horse who is expected to ride the same with everyone and anyone. It is easy to confuse nature with nurture (training) with the concept of "Leadership", "Respect" and "Trust" being thought synonymous or causational adding to the confusion. 

There has to be a balance of communication there; too little and you can find yourself in a pickle, too much and it takes a lot of the enjoyment out of trail riding.


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## gottatrot

What I dislike most about the term "holes in training" is that it implies that training is a ladder or step by step process and that missing one piece makes the whole thing fall apart like a poorly knitted shirt or a Jenga puzzle. 

Also, the same people who say to take a horse back into the arena and work on getting softer to cues admit that top trained show horses might be ultra soft and compliant in one setting but stiff and non-compliant when out on a trail. I personally know a warmblood that was in full time professional training for over ten years, was a pro at jumping and showing, and a complete mess on trail rides. He would rear and panic when he thought other horses were leaving him. 
I know for a fact that some people would say he had "holes" in his training. The only holes he had were needing experience in a new setting, needing to learn how to deal with his fears, and practice responding to the same cues he already knew by heart when out trail riding. 



> *Reiningcatsanddogs*:
> *I can understand why that hyper signaling can be perceived as a hole in training *especially with a horse who is expected to ride the same with everyone and anyone. It is easy to confuse nature with nurture (training) with the concept of "Leadership", "Respect" and "Trust" being thought synonymous or causational adding to the confusion.


I agree, and I would like more people to understand the difference between training and personality. I think too many people send horses to trainers over and over or think somehow they are missing something in the training with certain horses. I think instead of getting frustrated, people should understand that some horses are only going to improve on being hypersensitive to a certain degree, and that they will never become "bombproof." Either the rider has to change their expectations, or the horse should go to someone who can accept the personality. It would make for a lot less frustration for horse and rider. But instead I see people doing more and more ground work, and going to clinics looking for that magical missing piece that will fix the "holes" that aren't there. 

ALL horses can improve significantly with many experiences that are handled the right way. But many horses will never improve to the point where an average trail rider can hop on and have a carefree ride. But a horseman can instead think of the sensitivity of his horse as a "feature," and find the positive side.


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## bsms

One of the "Holes in Training" folks mention regularly is a horse who stops easily in an arena, but is "strong" in open country. Or one who is competitive. And then the advice is to plug the holes in the arena...but how to you train a horse in an arena to stop doing something they already never do in the arena? And some folks...not me to be honest...enjoy a horse who is strong and eager to cut loose out in the open.

I don't think anyone wants a horse who simply will not stop at all out in the open. That is suicidal. But today's ride was just in our little arena. There were dogs going nuts all around the neighborhood, I was alone, and Bandit was pretty concerned just grooming him. So we stayed in our tiny arena.

As it turned out, he really wanted to canter. Not trot. Canter. Maybe gallop a few strides. He got pretty fussy about trotting. 

So I did what I'm not supposed to do, and let him canter a bunch. Thus we did a lot of walk to canter transitions, and slowing him sometimes involved me saying "_I'm not interested in hearing you say no!_"

That doesn't bother me. I'd be a lot more bothered by a horse who refused to canter. Bandit and I actually found our groove today, and instead of cantering on a loose rein...we cantered with contact! Pretty freaky, a western rider using contact. My guess was that it helped him balance a little since we had to make near constant tight turns to stay in the arena. Outside, going straight...no contact is fine by him. Turning tight, he liked a little contact. And my hand motion was informed by my seat, and we had a number of very unified canters. For a lap or two, then it would start to fall apart. I also was soaked in sweat after 20 minutes, so today's ride only last 30. I had a meeting to go to anyways and I was late. Oh well. We got our ride in.

But I get a bit upset with riders who admit they carry a crop or whip to ensure their horse will move forward, but who seem to worry about MY horse having a training hole...because he doesn't always feel like stopping! 

There is the story my farrier tells of riding the crazy horse for the first ride of each day. Galloping a horse who refused to stop until he had 3+ miles of running in, but who would THEN take care of a total beginner or little child for the rest of the day. What his grandfather taught him was that horses, like people, have their oddities, and you should judge them by the totality. Heck, that is the way my horses judge ME! They forgive me a lot because they take all of me into account, and don't worry too much if I sometimes tense up or am stiff or get irritable once in a while.

Oh well. The lady who worked with Lilly and Mia and Trooper said horses had taught her to love the individual horse for what he is, and not for what he could never become. Not bad advice, and not limited to horses...

--------------------------------------------

I'll add this story:

Late yesterday afternoon, I went out and found the horses had no water. Their buckets were dry. So I started filling one, and all 3 crowded up and drank from one bowl. So I started filling the second tank.

When I had about 4" in it, Bandit came over, took a look - and jumped in with his front feet!

SPLASH! SPLASH! SPLASH!

If looks could kill, Cowboy and Trooper would have been guilty of equinicide. I grabbed the hose and sprayed Bandit between the eyes. He backed up about 5 feet, then looked enormously pleased with himself.

"_Wasn't that cool guys! Did you see the splash! I had it empty in no time!_"

The two older horses GLARED at him, and I think I know how their water got empty and left them without anything to drink!

And Bandit was like, "_Guys! Guys? It was funny! Ha Ha Haaa...guys?_" He was like the fourth grade kid who tried to be a clown and cannot understand why the rest of the class is upset about losing recess. And I felt a little sorry for Bandit...because I'm not so old as to forget BEING that 4th grade kid...:icon_rolleyes:


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## Bondre

gottatrot said:


> What I dislike most about the term "holes in training" is that it implies that training is a ladder or step by step process and that missing one piece makes the whole thing fall apart like a poorly knitted shirt or a Jenga puzzle.


BRAVO!! I have to admit that it is a relief to read this. If there's anything I hate more than the term 'holes in training' it's the idea that training has to follow a set programme and if you skip Wednesday, or week 2, or whatever, you **** up the whole business and you might as well not bother to continue because you have left a ##shock horror## TRAINING HOLE. 

And on top of screwing your horse irremedially so now she will NEVER know how to stop from a flat out gallop with your seat alone, you have joined the ranks of the sub-par trainers who must hang their head in shame and silence themselves in public lest they lead others astray into the same mire of unwholesome confusion :shock:

I jest but you get the gist of what I mean ;-)

I think we owner-riders are in the privileged position to be able to leave our horses with as many - or as few - holes as we please. My horse is getting to be as solid as a cheddar cheese for me - but for someone else she might be more like a Swiss cheese, all full of holes. As you have rightly pointed out, what is a gaping hole for one person could be a plus for someone else. 

I like my horses to be light off the leg and move forward readily. I like them to move laterally in response to indirect reins and leg. I like them to have regular gaits. I like them to stretch their necks out and relax when we're dawdling. I like them to come off an adrenaline high in a reasonably short time.

BUT I don't mind if they jump when a woodpigeon flies noisily out of a tree - the clatter of their wings make me jump too at times. I don't mind if they try to jump over a moving dust cloud or a tiny stream of water, instead of walking through it calmly - that is fun, and we are both alive and full of zest, so why fuss about a bit of harmless exuberance? I don't mind if they walk sideways past a bunch of weird agricultural equipment, or get all archy-snorty when we meet a tractor plus odd-shaped rattling equipment - I understand their concern and I too am wondering what the heck it's all for??

I think that when your horse is at the point that you both are comfortable together and you work well as a team, then their training is adequate for the situation. And if an outsider wants to point an accusing finger at my horse and utter the dreaded words, well, I could politely suggest they put their pointy finger somewhere else and go pick holes in someone else's affairs.


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## phantomhorse13

Bondre said:


> when your horse is at the point that you both are comfortable together and you work well as a team, then their training is adequate for the situation.


I think the "team" is what is missing in many, many cases. And perhaps for people showing or teaching lessons, they don't want a horse that does anything but mindlessly obey the cue of choice. I personally want a partner, not a robot.

To go along with the wonderful 'holes in training' term, I got a good laugh about how the 'natural aids' were to be used first and foremost. Somehow I don't think they mean my using my hand to whack the side of my fake-spooking, looking-for-an-excuse horse's neck while growling "quit it!" in a loud voice - despite the fact both of those cues are natural! :wink:

I would never call myself a trainer though.. heck our horses have never seen an arena, unless it happens to be where a vet check is held! :rofl:


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## weeedlady

"archy-snorty" great descriptive term. I will probably have to borrow that some time in the near future.

_M_


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## knightrider

I would like to mention on your journal (because I know I would be blasted if I wrote this on the regular forum) that in my experience of 60 years, I have found NO correlation between ground manners and riding behavior. I have had horses with horrible ground manners that rode like a dream and carted around beginners. I have had horses with impeccable ground manners that were insane to ride. I spent years and years working with the ones with the horrible ground manners, enduring all kinds of ugly unfair comments about how I had better fix those "holes in their training," with no success at all. Those horses rode beautifully, won many championships in shows, fox hunted, and jousted. Whatever corrections I dealt out had no effect on their ground behaviors. I'd never let a horse bite or kick me, but a couple of my mares over the years could really be aggressive and intimidating. They never actually did anything, but their behavior upset other people. Finally I just said to myself, "They are who they are. I'll just love them the way they are." I've had some amazing wonderful horses, but like they told us when we adopted our kids, "They are NOT blank slates. You will get what you get."


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## egrogan

I had never heard of "ground manners" or "ground work" or "lunging for respect" until I joined this Forum. Of course, as a kid, I learned how to lead a horse safely to and from a field, how to correct a fidgety one on cross-ties, how it should behave while tacking up etc.-it just wasn't something that people focused on or set aside special time to do, these were all lesson horses who knew their jobs.* But when I bought my first horse (I was in my early 30s, she was 18), it never occurred to me to "do groundwork" with her. She had a bad habit of diving for grass when you were trying to close a gate behind her. But that's just because she was handled by a lot of different people and no one ever said, "hey, knock it off, that's rude." Once I did that 2 or 3 times, she didn't do it again. I can't see any way that annoying, "disrespectful" behavior had anything to do with how she behaved under saddle.

*I should asterisk all my posts about stuff like this saying I know I've been fortunate to have ridden in decent lesson barns as a kid and bought a first horse who is generally kind, willing, who seems to have had a very solid riding foundation put on her as a youngster. I know that people much more well rounded in training than me have seen situations that are well beyond what I know how to deal with. And that's fine, because I'm pretty sure I'll always be looking to buy a well-broke, kind-hearted type


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

We spent quite a bit of time on ground manners before training the two that we got in un-broke.

For one, it was because he was un-ridable because he was recovering from starvation. It was a great way to get to know each other and set some boundries and methods for further training.

The other it was because my daughter was still a bit in freak-out mode after being trampled by a spooked lesson horse she was leading. Her horse was only two, so both with lots to learn still.

IMO if you don’t have a problem under saddle, your farrier is not walking away in disgust and you aren't having issues with visitors nearly getting injured, then you are good to go. When you do have a problem undersaddle, going back to the basics sometimes helps, sometimes not.

An example is a horse that does not yield to rein pressure and tries to run through the bit. Sometimes (it depends WHY the horse is running through the bit), getting off the horse and working the word “whoa!” or "easy" into the horse’s vocabulary can help. 

Also, one of the things I have used with good success is making sure the horse will lunge on a loose line so that if even light pressure is applied, the horse gives to it rather than strains against it. 

That said, I am ever in the pursuit of lightness in cuing so it's not everyone's cup of tea and probably not a hole per se, though a horse ignoring bit signaling would be for most.


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## bsms

The lady who broke Lilly and spent time training Mia used ground work. In the hands of the right person, it works well. Cowboy, OTOH, was being ruined by people doing ground work to correct him - and these were people I paid to give me riding lessons, which may be why I stopped taking lessons!


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## Bondre

egrogan said:


> I had never heard of "ground manners" or "ground work" or "lunging for respect" until I joined this Forum.


That's me too. I knew to teach Macarena to lunge and lead when I got her, but the concept of ground work was totally new to me. Perhaps fortunately I hadn't yet investigated the training section when I was starting her, so I did what I knew and once she lunged nicely with tack on, I got on her. I say fortunately because I'm sure that if I had been reading the training forum I would have had so many confused novel ideas that I might well have messed her up. I would probably have got into round penning, as that is so heavily advocated here by so many people who start young horses. And I might have a horse now who sticks to me like a leech but for all the wrong reasons. 

As it was, I certainly left all sorts of holes in her training and have had to go back and patch some of them. I have even started doing ground work with her, but seeing as I now know a bit better to separate the sheep from the goats lol I think the things we do together are useful and fun for her. I certainly don't ever oblige her to run round in mindless circles. We practice lateral movements, leading skills, hoof care and stretches. The lateral movements translate into her being more responsive under saddle, but the rest of it, while useful, has nothing to do with whether she rides well or not. 

BUT (and this is a big but) I managed to work through her balking episode using ground work. I think it did the trick because it helped recover her confidence in me when her confidence had taken a big blow. Not because the exercises we did were amazingly relevant to her problem of not wanting to go forward or leave the barn, but because it was something easy and different we could do together to restart our relationship on a slightly different footing. 

Perhaps it was like having a major crisis with your partner in business. The solution isn't to try doing the same thing again and again and again until it works out. The solution is to try something different until you strike on a compromise that you can both live with. And I think that is what groundwork, specifically clicker training, did for us. It was a compromise that offered a way forward for a horse that had seen through the "we do this because I say so" regime, and a rider that didn't have the heart - or the ability - to enforce mindless obedience.


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## knightrider

I did not mean to imply that I don't teach my horses ground manners. I usually buy yearlings and then with the long wait for them to grow up, I do lots and lots of activities with them on the ground. What I was trying to say was that there appears to be little or no correlation between good behavior on the ground and good behavior in the saddle. Some of the horses that I have started from yearlings have lovely ground manners and some of them have lousy ground manners. Some of them are hot and stay hot; some turn out to be gentle as kittens.

What brought this whole idea to mind was the gray Tennessee Walker, Gracie, that @Elle came to my house to try for a week. She is rather pushy and difficult on the ground. Her behavior put Elle off and was one of the main reasons why she decided not to buy her. We talked about it quite a lot. I told her it wouldn't affect my decision to buy at all. Pushy on the ground, to me, is just annoying (also, in my experience, doesn't seem to go away with training). My neighbor just bought Gracie for his very fragile wife to ride. Although this lady can only walk about 10 steps and falls sometimes in the house, she misses riding and asked her husband to find her a good gentle horse. Gracie will suit her perfectly, as she goes along quietly, doesn't spook, yet is animated and lively enough to please an experienced (albeit fragile) elderly lady. Gracie's lack of ground manners didn't bother my neighbor (or his wife) one bit, as she rides like a dream. Gracie may have a "hole" in her training, but it has been my experience that my neighbor could work with her for years . . . and she'll still be pushy on the ground . . . and a lovely ride under saddle.


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## egrogan

^^@knightrider-I got what you meant. Was more reacting to the idea (which I have heard on this Forum) that you shouldn't ride if your horse doesn't have "perfect" ground manners. Again, I've never been around a mean bully of a horse-but I think there's a difference between a horse who is safe and relatively pleasant to handle/ride and one that is "drilled" on manners ad nauseum. Which, to be clear, I know you're not saying either


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## carshon

I am going to chime in and second the idea that correcting with ground work can be counter productive. I had a horse that had been abused and then became unruly so she ended up in the meat pen at an auction. On a whim I purchased her. It did not take me long to figure out that when someone in her past thought she misbehaved they made her back up aggressively - both on the ground and under saddle. so anytime a voice was raised around her she literally ran backward to the point she could flip herself over! It took some time but she became a great riding mount - just very very sensitive,

Then a friend had a horse whose trainer used backing as punishment - her horse exhibited much of the same behavior as my mare - she could run backward in hand and undersaddle - they sold the mare because the episodes were so frightening and eventually the horse used it as a method to avoid doing what the rider wanted it to do

I like a horse with good ground manners but agree with knightrider that at times behavior can be so ingrained it may never fully go away


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## tinyliny

I've gotten a lot less anal about requiring good ground manners. maybe I'm just lazy, but I don't get after every slip. if the horse needs to move around, I pretty much let him. X is that way. he isn't aggressive or mean, but he is a bit pushy. that is partly my fault in that I hand feed him treats. he is so motivated by treats, that I can get a lot of cooperation from him that way. but, he MUST take them from my hand in a polite manner, and he does. but, he moves around a lot when grooming and tacking. I just get out of his way. I am not going to change this habit and I don't care. he's a good ride, and we get a long a lot better now that I am not being a Nazi at him.


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## weeedlady

tinyliny said:


> and we get a long a lot better now that I am not being a Nazi at him.


^^What Tiny said. Raven and I are both happier when I relax a bit and don't require perfection. I expect her to behave nicely, but she's not perfect and never will be. I was just getting frustrated trying to make her into something she is not.

_M_


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## bsms

During this time of year, we have grass growing in our little arena. So I let Bandit graze while I groom and tack. He usually lifts his feet for me for cleaning without interrupting his meal. I do expect him to come along with me when I need to go grab a brush or saddle, but then I let him eat while I adjust the saddle. I just don't care.

Now today, when I went for a short ride, he decided he didn't want to go between the garbage cans on either side of the street. He was more in the mood to go back and eat. He got popped in the gut with my heels, and we trotted between the garbage cans until he was willing to walk relaxed. He was NOT afraid of them. Just wasn't in the mood.

And when we got back in the arena, he wanted to trot instead of canter. Then he wanted to canter instead of trot. We didn't have a pretty ride today.

I've got to be honest. That doesn't entirely bother me. On page one of his book, Ray Hunt writes, "*When you ask your horse to do something it should be his idea. This is the goal.*" That sounds nice. But it just doesn't always work that way for me. I think Bandit would be pretty content, all told, for me to spend the rest of his life leading him around on a lead line and letting him eat as much as possible. But I'm not interested in that. I'm not interested in a horse who takes but never gives.

Bandit is not and probably never will be as "willing" as Mia. When Mia wasn't scared, she was almost always willing. When Bandit isn't scared...sometimes he'll still tell me to shove off.

However, he also isn't as sensitive as Mia (and Lilly). Being a bit pig-headed himself, I think he can tolerate my own pigheadedness in a way that Mia could not. I've said Lilly and Mia were "Please and Thank You" horses. Say please and thank you, and they would try very hard. They were, in their own way, very polite horses.

Bandit is not. In some ways that is good. He can tolerate rougher handling than Mia could. He probably needs rougher handling than Mia did.

I don't see any way around it. A horse who says, "_We've come 250 yards, now lets turn around and go back, and you can watch me eat for two hours_" - and who is not afraid - needs to hear, "_Nope! Get going!_". IMHO.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

If you know where Ray Hunt got that idea and the reason it was said it might make a bit more sense.

"The style of horsemanship that I do is, probably the best way to describe it is, if you ask the horse to help you make up the rules, how you get him to understand…that’s kind of how you approach it. You approach things in a way that you don’t make things happen, you fix it up and let it happen. To where your idea becomes the horse’s idea so, it’s based a lot on psychology and the horse’s ability to learn and make decisions and you discourage the horse from doing the wrong thing but you don’t punish him for doing the wrong thing. And you reward him and give him relief when he makes the right choices." -Buck Brannaman

Both Hunt and BB studied with Tom Dorrance. "Make your idea, his idea". 

Brannaman was talking more about training up a horse than working with one that was already trained by someone else. Hunt may have also been.....sorry gotta run, the ground beef is starting to burn.


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## bsms

"*When you ask your horse to do something it should be his idea. This is the goal.*"

As a GOAL, I understand it. As a day to day reality...not there and never will be. I don't know how one gets around the fact that, at least on some days, my horse quite reasonably prefers to stay and eat rather than go ride.

It is kind of like jogging. The hardest part of most of my jogging is the first 1/4 to 1/2 mile. After that...I'm out, I'm falling into the groove...I'm happy. But I often have to press thru for 1/4-1/2 mile first.

My youngest daughter loves to ride - provided someone else gets her horse ready, so all she has to do is stroll out and mount up. Not happening, though.

I understand trying to think about it from the horse's point of view. But what happens when I do that, and conclude the horse very reasonably prefers to do nothing? And once you get Bandit out for a while, he relaxes and gets in the groove, kind of like I do when jogging. Today, I planned on going back to the arena and doing a little work, then heading out again. But by the time we fussed around in the arena, the garbage truck was making its rounds. Some days Bandit can handle it. Others...nope! And I can certainly understand his point of view:










Given how everything else was going, I decided that was a bridge too far. Although he did stand by me and watch it from about 75 feet away as it gathered up the neighbor's garbage and "ate it"...and he did OK.

I've only read Hunt's book for about 20-30 minutes. Probably won't finish it for a few days. But right now, I think I'm working on getting from C to D, and Ray Hunt is talking about what happens after N or O or P....


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Okay I have prevented dinner from bursting into flames...

What works with Ollie may or may not work with Bandit but it is worth a try. He rarely really baulks, but when he does it is for one of two reasons: there is genuinely something ahead that is not quite right or he is letting his opinion be heard.

Both are an attempt to communicate with me which I encourage and see as an asset.

You questioned on another thread “The horse is never wrong”. From a person’s perspective it might seem like hogwash. Now take a step back and look at it as a horse which is the perspective Dorrance and often Hunt write from. He is a horse and he is going to do what a horse thinks he should do in his own best interests, because, he is a horse. Therefore, a horse is never wrong. Don’t know that I explained that any better than Dorrance did….

From this perspective, Bandit was trying to communicate something to you (in his own best interest). You might not like what he had to say any more than he probably liked your response, but he was “talking” to you in his own way.

Oliver hates going in circles in an arena. He’ll do it, but without the Joie De Vivre that he has on the trails. At the start of summer, the weather was constantly crappy and where we usually rode was too wet, so I decided to ride him out just on our property. It is a mile from front to back and I have cut in three loops only one of which will eventually take you off the property and out onto some low traffic roads where you can then ride for days if you so desired. 

We had done the first two loops, but not the one that leads out to the road. We had gone only for about 15 minutes so I thought we would just repeat and then call it an evening before being eaten alive by mosquitos. 

“Hey!” said Oliver

“We didn’t do the fun loop. I want to do the fun loop!” As he stopped dead and would not cue forward

My first reaction was to push him forward with my legs. He didn’t budge. Instead he looked over at the entrance to the C loop and then at me. 

I said “I know boy” and met his eye. So I sat there and sighed wishing we could take a longer ride that night. He stood still and sighed and put his head down. Then I asked for forward again on the previous loops and he acquiesced. 

He wasn't being stubborn or a poo, he was doing exactly what I like him to do...communicate with me. He was doing precisely what he thought he should do. Not going to get angry at him for doing what I "trained" him to do!

I don’t know if it was a release of emotion, or a loss in his train of thought (think computer stuck in a program loop) that does it, but I gave it a moment and my idea became his idea. The whole thing took all of five seconds. No skin off my nose or his. Might be worth a try?


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## bsms

^^ Interesting post, and thanks for sharing the story.


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## bsms

Ray Hunt quotes

"Your horse learns he can do anything you want him to do and he's glad to do it; he's ready to do it. You've set it up for him. You've never discouraged him, you've never belittled him, you've really bragged on him and his good qualities. When he did something wrong, you didn't make a big thing of it. You went along with him there, too, and showed him that wasn't too good a thing to do - yet you didn't criticize him or hammer on him. So, as time goes on from day to day, week to week, month to month, and year to year, I'll grant you that you can build a friendship and something that is unbelievable." - page 38

"But this other way, there's never a doubt; when you ask him to do something, it's not a kidding sort or joking sort of thing. You ask him to do something, he knows you mean it and that there is a reason why you ask him. So he does it because he is your friend and you're his friend and you have taught him this....You have let him learn it because you've gone with him when he was discouraged, disappointed, worried, and bothered. You've accepted it and you've shown him a softer way." - page 39

------------------------------------------------------------------

I put it differently, borrowing heavily from Tom Roberts and the exchanges on the forum with SueC, gottatrot, Bondre, and others.

I think it is both simpler and more accurate to say you want to teach a horse to use good judgment, and good judgment cannot be learned unless bad judgment sometimes happens. So you give the horse choices - real choices - in settings where bad judgment won't do too much harm, and let the experience teach him better judgment.

*You also teach the horse trust by being trustworthy*. When the horse doubts your judgment, you take the time to show him you were right, until the horse starts to think, "_He's been right 273 out of 275 times, so why not trust what he says on situation #276?_"

But it is NOT "because he is your friend and you're his friend". That is bonding nonsense. I say that because Mia REALLY liked me, but that didn't mean she trusted my judgment and it didn't mean she understood the cues I used or why I used them. A horse will be more confident under a dominant but fair and trustworthy person than under a friend they like but don't understand or do not trust. Training - creating a habit of obedience - will create a more reliable horse than being wonderful friends. And when the reliable horse sees that humans consistently ask him to do things he CAN do, and do safely, then he will learn to trust humans. Not just "Rider A".

I think Harry Whitney said something to the effect that sometimes a horse needs to do something in order to learn he CAN so something. That is why a strong & dominant rider can often get better results than an understanding rider who doesn't ask much - because the more dominant rider pushes the horse into situations that the horse doesn't believe he can do. And then he does it. Successfully. And then the dominant rider is proven correct, and the horse learns confidence in himself and trust in the rider.

That doesn't mean friendship is wrong, but the best way to get a horse's friendship is to demonstrate to the horse that you are worth having as a friend. And that is done, not in the round pen, but outside. Riding. And sometimes pushing the horse, and sometimes getting off the horse and demonstrating, and sometimes - in the case of a horse who has learned to dominate humans - by showing the horse that a human can be one tough hombre who cannot be ignored.

It is like being a parent. Sometimes it takes toughness and taking charge to raise a child until the child is ready to handle more difficult things. And sometimes it takes understanding. But if a parent focuses on being his child's friend, his child is screwed. The child can have friends, and love the parents, but the parents cannot FOCUS on being friends. That isn't enough to raise a child - or to train a horse! 

-----------------------------------------------------

"How do you get a horse to go away from the barn?

You wouldn't try to take him away from the barn; you'd just make it difficult for him to hang around there. You would make it difficult by not letting his feet stop - just keep his feet moving...You've made the wrong thing difficult and the right thing easy." - page 52

This is just pressure and release. The rider isn't hitting the horse with a whip, but he is applying pressure by making the horse work harder. He is giving the horse, ultimately, a 3 way choice: 1) go where I want, 2) work hard, 3) be punished for not moving. I consider that nagging. The equivalent of saying, "_If you don't move when I make a kiss sound, I'll squeeze lightly. If that doesn't work, I'll nudge you with my heel, and if that doesn't work, I'll keep nudging you with my heel until you ignore me totally!_"

I would prefer a sharper correction. If the horse is NOT AFRAID and understands what is being asked, but doesn't feel like it, then one softens the horse to a cue by going from kissing sound to light squeeze to sharp smack - because DARN IT! You KNOW what is being asked!

A horse cannot learn confidence in himself and in his rider's judgment unless he goes places that tests both horse and rider - and most horses will be reluctant to try that test. The rider needs judgment and not ask too much of the horse too soon - which was a problem I often had with Mia. Her fears were deeper than I understood. But a horse who never has to handle a challenge will never learn to handle it.

In an ideal situation, you do NOT "make the wrong thing harder". If the horse exercises bad judgment, then the result of the bad judgment should be the "harder". Ideally, you've supplied a learning exercise where failing creates its own punishment. Then you just help the horse move on.

But ideal doesn't describe the world where I live. So yes, sometimes I have to be the one who provides the negative result. But what Ray Hunt is describing is just another form of negative result, and I think a horse will learn better if the negative result is both sharper (more memorable) and more immediate. In this example, Ray Hunt IS punishing the horse. But he is doing it in a mushy way that the horse may not connect with the undesirable behavior.

Of course, Ray Hunt is famous and spent decades with hundreds of horses, and I've got 8 years mostly riding 2. And his book arrived yesterday and I haven't read it all, and I may be misunderstanding him.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Keep in mind as you read, that Hunt is most likely speaking from his perspective of starting a horse from scratch and not taking on a horse who has been trained prior. 

If you can get your hands on a blank slate and develop a relationship consistently from the beginning, teaching them what humans are all about where can that lead?


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## bsms

Starting from scratch is harder in some ways and easier in others. And there is much I like in what Ray Hunt writes, although I find Tom Roberts easier to understand and apply. Consider the following:

"Whether you are just starting a horse or working with a more advanced horse, a big key to remember is to always prepare ahead of time. In the boldest word of all, remember the word *THINK*. Be aware and alert, visualize what you want. Realize you are working with a mind. A lot of people think it's just a horse, but there is a mind operating that horse. The mind gets him to doing things because he wants to do them. Or you teach him to do things he doesn't like to do but feels he has to do them anyways.

Sometimes people try to teach a horse to do something he's not really capable of. It is important to recognize how much a horse can do and how much to ask him. We need to recognize the smallest try, realize the slightest change. Many of us don't know a horse is trying to do something for us until he's already done it...

...We often don't even get him in a learning frame of mind before we begin to train him...

...Well, what they have done is that they have overdone. The horse was trying to figure them out, but when the rider wanted more and better without even rewarding the horse for what he tried to do, the horse said, 'This is the wrong thing to do because I get punished for this.' So he quits. He bucks them off, or blows up, or freezes up..." - pages 6-7

To be honest, I think he is saying what you and gottatrot and SueC and Bondre and egrogan and phantomhorse13 and Hondo and others describe, although I also think I learn more from the concrete examples, such as @*Bondre* : 

"_Her reaction was more of offended surprise than anything else. As if I had broken the rules of her game. She didn't respond by moving forward however; she went backwards and sideways. We went round in circles. We sidled and pivoted. After she had made her disapproval clear by misbehaving and going everywhere but the place she was meant to go, we finally got back to where we had been before I hit her (both physically and mentally)._"

That is such a great description of what happened to me many times on Mia. And sometimes on Bandit. But that makes the point that I've concluded independently from Ray Hunt:

_We never control the horse's body. The horse's mind controls the horse's body. We can only influence the horse's mind, which in turns controls the body. Body control is a myth. If you want to be safe on a horse, *ride the mind*! If you can ride the mind, then staying safe on the body is easy!_

And @*Hondo* made a comment about humans feeling confident about ponying a horse that I think sums up some of Ray Hunt's teaching very clearly and concisely (not a direct quote, but something like this):

'_If doing X makes you tense, maybe try doing less than X?_'

A lot of injured riders would never get hurt if they would write that on their saddles, and read it before mounting up! How often have I told my kids, "Take a smaller bite!" And how much easier is it to train a horse and learn to ride if we would sometimes just remember:

"*Take a smaller bite!*"​
Ray Hunt discusses that, but I don't think he communicates the idea as well as Hondo did.

As I've been reading "Think Harmony with Horses", I find myself wanting to write the publisher and ask if they would put out "The Horseforum.com's Annotated Guide to Think Harmony with Horses" - with real life examples pulled from the member journals.

If I had read Hunt's book early on, he wouldn't have helped me. Some of it is stuff I needed my horse to teach me, but some of it is stuff that folks on HF have taught me as they shared their lives with their horses! Those examples of their own struggles illustrate what I think Ray Hunt is trying to say. But I fault the book for the lack of examples! An "HF Annotated Guide" would make great reading! 87 pages might become 250 pages, but I think it would benefit a lot of new riders and stick in peoples' minds better than the 87 page book.

In the final chapter, another person discusses Ray Hunt's method. They write:

"You put a horse 'in a bind', and then you give him a 'way out'. Let him find it as his own idea...A Hunt-trained horse is never defeated. He always responds to you because you have made his move his own idea. And he does this amazingly well...because he notes right away that you are the one who gives him a "way out'". - pg 70

As a practical matter, I find applying the Tom Robert's rules of

"This will profit you. This will profit you not." & "Quiet Persistence" 

easier to figure out while on horseback. I also prefer my own argument of setting boundaries and then giving the horse freedom within those boundaries, while searching for a mutually acceptable compromise. So "_We will not spin away, because I will do whatever it takes to prevent you from profiting by that behavior. We will not buck, because I will make bucking useless to you. And we will persist, until you either come up with a *mutually acceptable compromise* on your own (your own thought) or are ready to listen to my suggested options_." And when the horse listens to my suggestion and decides to follow it, my thought HAS become his thought!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Here is the thing about body control, you can't just slap it in there but once you do have the horse's mind with you (however that is accomplished, there is not just one way) then the horse is ready for that training. In the beginning neither Oliver nor Caspian had body control, even though we might have had their minds working with us. Body control is tangible result of training once you have the mind with you if that makes sense. All it really means is that if I ask for one step, the horse gives me one step not two or three. If I ask for him to move his shoulder one step or two then pause and go the other way, he will do that. Ask only for the hip and you will get that, no more, no less. It is a function of training or "installing buttons" as some call it. 

I also agree with Hondo's do less of X, pearl of wisdom. I had been off of a horse (not counting rent-a-rides or 'come ride my horse for me' here) for almost 8 years after the birth of #5. My trainer watched me ride and expected me to do all sorts of things that my body and mind were not ready for yet. 

Once I pointed out to him that I wasn't ready to jump right back in where I left off, that my head had the knowledge, but the body was not back there yet to the degree I was comfortable with, then he understood and let me set my own pace. It was the best thing he could have done for me. 

I didn't need to be pushed into doing anything because I was an eager and willing participant, I wanted, enjoyed, learning. I also happened to know my own limits and I ride on feel. I wasn't "feeling it" yet. Just as he expected me to trust in him as a trainer, he needed to trust in my judgement as a rider when I said 'not yet'.

You are correct that Hunt is not for beginners, neither is Dorrance or Brannaman. A beginner needs a "how to" manual and none of these men are really that type of trainer. These guys, you have to be ready to put the pieces together on your own without having your hand held.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

My husband and I are learning to dance. Now, I have actually had a lot of prior training with ball-room dance and know what it is supposed to feel like. 

He, however has no idea how to lead, how to signal me when to turn, when to spin, when to dip. 

I told him he better start leading or I will. Threats didn’t work either, so I closed my eyes.

He said “what are you doing?” 
I said “trusting you not to slam me into another couple or drop me.”

Suddenly once given total responsibility, he started leading for the first time and I could move entirely off of that feel. I imagine that being a horse with a rider on your back is a lot like ballroom dancing with your eyes closed. It takes trust, it takes feel and it takes a mutual understanding of what the other person is communicating through that feel.


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## tinyliny

I should have done that. but, when hubby and I did a ballroom dancing class, it was pre-horse days. I just expressed my frustration at the lack of leadership, and he expressed his frustration at the lack of patience. we never took another class.


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## bsms

I just don't dance. Two left feet wouldn't begin to describe it. My horses are more forgiving than my wife...:lol:


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## Hondo

I think the ballroom dancing example is brilliant! I have tried to imagine what it must be like to have a monkey on my back with strings going to my face or mouth and trying to go or do as the monkey directs. Pretty amazing that the horse can do what it does.

As a beginner, I started taking Hondo on daily walks leading him. Invariably we came upon a dish of pellets somewhere along the trail. He was always led back to the herd before being turned loose rather than letting him go whinnying to find them.

This went on for about three months. I think that's a good place for beginners to start.

Prior to that I had volunteered, requested actually, to pen and feed 23 horses night and morning when they came in during the cold month of January just to learn their names and who they were. I was constantly asking questions about their backgrounds. That was my introduction to, "All Horses Are Different", among other things.

And as I've mentioned, reading Powell and Rashid got me started, I think, off on the right foot with a better "attitude" toward the horse than I might have gotten elsewhere.

I'm still learning of course and it doesn't appear that it will end any time soon.

Yesterday brought home again the degree to which a horse will pick up on internal confusion and distress of the rider, arising outside events, and become as nervous and unpredictable as the rider. It is easy to forget how much in tune and in sync to us they are and how closely they actually watch us and monitor everything about us. If we want them to be calm, our internal selves must be calmed, I think.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

A lot of my experiences growing up helped me to see the perspective of the horse. Having gone through something that touched you deeply, builds empathy for others (even animals) going through a similar situation. 

I have had partners (I did competitive ice dancing also, which is why I took the ball-room classes years ago), who didn’t just lead they manhandled me. There was no attempt to communicate or allowance for me to respond. Instead of just cuing a move, they tried to control every aspect of my response. One-sided partnership; not a partnership at all. Leader-minion was more the feel of it.

I have had partners where every mistake was always mine even after I pointed out that they cued me wrong or were not where they were supposed to be to give me the needed support (Cue; dip. Hey! Where is the knee that is supposed to be there? Heck if I’m dipping!). I couldn’t trust them.

In the case of them cuing wrong, the momentary confusion it caused for me was enough to literally miss a beat, your timing was off and then partner gets mad at you! To say that it is frustrating and eventually downright enraging is an understatement. You feel like your perception does not matter and there is no communication, no plan. 

Given a choice, you don’t stay with a partner where you are always at fault very long (there is a shortage of men in dancing). You just try to make the best of it, but there comes a point where no partner is better than suffering through that kind of partner. You stop enjoying it, suck it up and just go through the motions, without feeling, without heart....or you fight.

I have also had partners who were klutzes. They just didn’t have good balance or body awareness (this was especially noticeable in ice dancing) and because they outweighed me sometimes by 100 lbs and at times you are moving across the ice at 10 or 20 mph their lack of balance easily pulled me off balance. To me it felt less like dancing and more like a constant battle to hold my own.

IMO, feel, timing and balance is one of the building blocks of trust.


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## Bondre

Hondo said:


> Yesterday brought home again the degree to which a horse will pick up on internal confusion and distress of the rider, arising outside events, and become as nervous and unpredictable as the rider. It is easy to forget how much in tune and in sync to us they are and how closely they actually watch us and monitor everything about us. If we want them to be calm, our internal selves must be calmed, I think.


^^^ very true. I have a good example of this from yesterday. As I have written in my journal, Macarena has had a couple of frights over dirtbikes - both coincidently in the same place. About a month ago she panicked over an atv that approached us from behind in the exact same place on the road as the other two incidents. The atv slowed right down and did nothing wrong, but I got totally stressed when I saw the thing approaching, remembering her previous panics. My fear of Macarena's possible reaction evidently made her scared and provoked a third panic reaction. 

I suspected at the time that most of her fright reaction, at least on that last occasion, was my fault, and yesterday proved that to be the case. I was riding with my DH and we met the same atv coming towards us, nice and slow. His horse Duna is fine about such things. Macarena was leading and I told myself she would be fine, we weren't in her panic place, the atv wasn't making a filthy noise, no reason for her to get scared, and I kept myself calm. She barely looked at it. A slight edging to one side as it passed but no more.


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## bsms

"If we want them to be calm, our internal selves must be calmed, I think." - @*Hondo* 

One of the bad bits of advice I got with Mia was to pretend I was calm. "_Just act calm - sing or do something - and when you pretend to be calm, she will be calm._" But there were two problems with this advice. 

1 - My calmness didn't always remove her fears, and in fact her worst episodes tended to come when I was genuinely feeling very calm...maybe because I was so calm that I didn't recognize the tension in her. 

2 - I'm no good at lying to my horse. I might get away with it once in a while, but they get pretty good at seeing thru me.

Instead of pretending, I needed to create a new reality - based on what was real. So if I had legitimate concerns about falling off, then I needed lessons, or to get more experience on a different horse, or a change in tack or position or SOMETHING that would give me genuine reason to have less fear.

And then I needed to ignore the advice so many gave - push through, ignore your fears, don't let her look, never back off and dismount, etc - and simply:

Take smaller bites, and chew thoroughly.​ 
"You stop enjoying it, suck it up and just go through the motions, without feeling, without heart....or you fight." - @*Reiningcatsanddogs* 

That was me at times. And it was Mia at others. Because what I'm learning with Bandit is that trust and confidence is MUTUAL. We ride as teams, even when we refuse to admit it. *Your discussion of ice skating is spot on!* And a TEAM cannot move with confidence and timing and balance and feel unless BOTH are working together and trusting EACH OTHER. Mutual trust.

When Reiningcatsanddogs's partner treated her like a sack of potatoes, it prevented trust. When I would try to push Mia on regardless of her tension, it created fear. When I tried to push on in spite of MY fears, it reinforced those fears!

I needed to honor Mia's fears, but I also needed to honor mine. She could not relax and be confident with a scared, tense partner. And neither could I. So we needed to take smaller bites, and chew thoroughly. Stay mostly within our capabilities - our capacity as a team - and slowly build on the time we spent working together at a level where our trust in each other was genuine. It is important to expand the envelope by taking small excursions past each of our comfort levels, but pushing past our comfort level should have been done in smaller steps, and only after building a solid foundation of trust.

There were times I was afraid and my horse was not. OK, back off. Mia would not have objected. She, like most horses, was not very goal oriented! There were times she was afraid and I was not. OK, back off. A little discomfort, for a short time, is a teaching experience. Pushing past our fears, OTOH, merely reinforces those fears - for both members of the team!

People get upset that I often reject the common wisdom of riding instructors. I think that common wisdom is built on having a lot of experience with compliant lesson horses and young riders who can break an arm and be ready to ride the next day. I think a lot of riding instructors have almost no experience teaching an older rider to ride a nervous horse. Heck, many of them (IMHO) focus so intently on what worked for them while showing that they forget to teach a rider how to ride defensively - how to keep the horse between you and the ground when things aren't level, smooth, and the horse is green or scared.

But so much of the advice I got with Mia was flat out WRONG. It not only did not work, it made things worse. It helped me dig a much deeper hole, and then made it much harder for me to fill it in!

And the root of the bad advice was a refusal to admit the horse has a mind. And a heart. And feelings. And a refusal to view the horse and rider as a team. I was supposed to make Mia fearless by dominating her, and by lying to her about my own fears and weaknesses. But Mia wasn't the sort to accept dominance, and I wasn't able to lie to her, and *I should never have been encouraged to do either one*!

I reject a lot of "proper riding" because I tried it and it FAILED. Yet much of that advice came from people with 40+ years (or so they claim) of riding. Either they had forgotten what it is like to be a newbie, or they learned bad habits on compliant horses and never got beyond the "CA with a problem horse" stage of training.

If I had spent the last year riding Bandit using what I was told to do with Mia (and did, or tried to do for the first few years), Bandit would be getting worse instead of better. I took a nervous but very willing Arabian mare and made her worse, and didn't start crawling out of the hole until I did two things I was told not to do - switch her to a curb bit, and follow Tom Robert's advice about slack reins and giving my horse some real choices...

And yes, I feel awful about what I did wrong with Mia, and I have some anger for the many experienced riders who encouraged me to treat her like a machine...and to sometimes treat myself like one. :evil:

I'll add this: About a month ago, Bandit and I were out riding. He didn't put a foot wrong. He never stopped going forward. But I felt he was very tense. Heading back, I finally decided to dismount and lead him. He walked beside me for about 5 minutes, then blew hard a few times, and then rubbed his head against my shoulder. I swear he looked apologetic! By the time we got home, he was relaxed. Truly relaxed.

Did I teach him to dominate me by pretending to be tense? Or did I teach him to trust me because I would put aside my goals and respond to the tension inside him?


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Do keep in mind however that when people are giving advice/suggestions over the internet, through a book or even in a DVD, it is general. Those same people given an opportunity to know you, the horse and actually watch, might give a totally different response. It is one of the flaws of this type of communication. 

There is so much that a good horseperson will see in a hands on situation, sometimes without really realizing it, that it is often difficult to give an accurate opinion. There is no substitute for getting it straight from the horse's mouth without the filter of an owner who may see only part of the picture. Someone else sees another part, a third person sees yet another part and while no piece can solve the puzzle alone, putting all those pieces together gives the complete picture. 

So much of understanding what is going on inside a horse has to do with seeing the whole horse before deciding how to approach.

I was already walking rapidly for three or four seconds towards my trainer and Oliver before he dumped him. I knew what was about to happen. The teens that witnessed the whole crack up asked me how I knew. (I had uttered a rather loud expletive before heading across the arena. Apologies to their parents). Oliver's whole existence told me what he was going to do long before he did it. I can't tell you exactly what I saw in total that told me he wasn't just annoyed but, was about to explode. I just absolutely knew it when I saw it. 

That is a very important missing component when seeking advice for a behavior issue and, as you found out with the differences in horses between Mia and Bandit, it can make all of the difference in the outcome.


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## bsms

Got the saddles out, just about ready for my wife & I to go riding Bandit and Cowboy...then put my cowboy boots on. Had my big toenail removed Thursday afternoon & still have a thick bandage around it. Does fine in sneakers, but my boots squeezed it down on top, at the nail bed. Tried another pair of cowboy boots, same thing. Hurts just to sit in a chair like that!

Soooooo...begged off, and my wife AND DAUGHTER and I will take the three horses out of a walk, on lead ropes. I can walk fine in sneakers. But while I don't mind skipping a helmet, I refuse to ride in western stirrups in sneakers. Even if the sheepherders I was with in June did it...

Need to get some toe cages for my Australian saddle. Of course, by the time I got them, my toe should be better. :icon_rolleyes: And it is a gorgeous day in southern Arizona today - currently 72 degrees, partly cloudy, slight breeze...PERFECT riding weather. Figures, doesn't it!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Jealous. High of ninety here today and I put laundry out on the line last night, just checked it again and it is still damp. Humid as heck out!


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## Hondo

bsms said:


> And @Hondo made a comment about humans feeling confident about ponying a horse that I think sums up some of Ray Hunt's teaching very clearly and concisely (not a direct quote, but something like this):
> 
> 'If doing X makes you tense, maybe try doing less than X?'





Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> I also agree with Hondo's do less of X, pearl of wisdom.


I can't allow that "pearl of wisdom" to be attributed to me. That would be more than a little white lie! 

That concept is taught both casually, in DVD's, and on site instruction in a sport I was once involved it. If you're scared to do X, well don't. Dox.

When that feels safe and comfortable, do a little more. Pretty soon you'll be doingX in total control and with total safety, well, almost.

There, glad to get that undeserved accolade off my chest. But thanks for the thought.

I thought I was getting in tune with Hondo a bit but RCD makes me feel like a first grader. And that's a good thing.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Hondo, I don’t mean to make you or anyone else feel like a first grader! My sincere apologies for doing so.

I just have always had a bit of a philosophical streak in me….I think about “things” deeply, even when I am doing something else. Maybe my father’s tactic of sending me to my room to think about what I did wrong when I misbehaved worked a bit too well? (I spent a lot of time there) :0

Sorry, I really don't mean to come off high and mighty. It really is meant to just get y'all thinking your own thoughts and weaving your own philosophies out of your own experiences.


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## bsms

^^ You don't come off as arrogant. You come off as someone to inspire those of us with less saddle time to experiment and try for riding a horse with understanding instead of an iron fist.

Heck, it was pretty exciting to me to see that Ray Hunt - a very respected trainer - taught stuff that I've been learning from Mia, Bandit and the folks on HF. There are certainly a lot of folks who poo-poo the idea, so its nice to hear success stories - and stories about learning along the way!

Also, I found the skating analogy very helpful. It really is like hearing the horse's side of riding...


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

bsms said:


> ^^ You don't come off as arrogant. You come off as someone to inspire those of us with less saddle time to experiment and try for riding a horse with understanding instead of an iron fist.
> 
> Heck, it was pretty exciting to me to see that Ray Hunt - a very respected trainer - taught stuff that I've been learning from Mia, Bandit and the folks on HF. There are certainly a lot of folks who poo-poo the idea, so its nice to hear success stories - and stories about learning along the way!
> 
> Also, I found the skating analogy very helpful. It really is like hearing the horse's side of riding...


Thank-you for that. My husband tells me that sometimes I come off the wrong way so I try to be aware of it.


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## Hondo

@Reiningcatsanddogs

Oh Me! I'm afraid I am the one that doesn't say things right, not you.

Notice I said, "And that's a good thing!".

That was just my way of recognizing and appreciating the very high level of experience and knowledge you have. I mean it.

I came in from my puttering around outside to post and idea you inspired.

There needs to be a book, or a DVD series, or even better, a TV series entitled:

_*DANCING WITH HORSES*_

If a TV series, the program could show gradual progress over a long period of time. If a year or two was taken to produce a DVD set, the same could be shown. That would be much more meaningful than what could be done in one training session.

And the concept of Dancing With Horses could embrace the teachings of Dorrance, Hunt, Rashid, and all of those things that we like ( and that the horses like). Dancing with horses describes very much the quest I have been and am on.

I don't have a TV but for that I'd get one!

Edit: To me, Dancing With Horses is a step beyond the concept of horse whispering. In many ways, I think, it really is a dance.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Thank-you Hondo. 

You might be interested to know that there is actually a book, I have not read it so I can't speak to its value, Dancing with Horses: Communication with Body Language by Klaus Hempfling. He was actually a professional dancer at one time a lot of his things you can find for free on line are highly over produced and have that "artistic flare" that Europeans seem to appreciate more than we Americans, but a lot of what he does is solid. I have one of his other books though and found it useful.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I found two video relating to this you might find interesting. At least these are not so artsy-fartsy as a lot of his other ones!

The Interaction Between Man and Horse - AOL On

How to Behave with Horses - AOL On 

Oh dang, I forgot you have limited viewing power right now. I leave them here for you and you can come back and watch them when you get the opportunity.


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## Hondo

[MENTIONReiningcatsanddogs][/MENTION] Thanks for the video links. I watched 2.5 of them. I'll have to wait until I get back to Windows 7 for the rest. Pretty amazing stuff!


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## bsms

Just received a book by Tom Dorrance. I doubt I'd recommend it. It costs quite a bit for a slender volume, and I don't think it is written very clearly. However, I'll post a couple of quotes:

Tom Dorrance "True Unity"

"Many people don't realize how easy it is to destroy this confidence the horse has built up in the human - the closeness between the horse and the person. If the person will allow the horse to use this confidence and closeness, it will be strong in the horse. But the person generally doesn't realize what the horse is trying to apply - what it's really wanting the person to grasp. That is very seldom recognized by the person, but the horse is chuck full of it...We are searching for, and trying to find, some way to get this into print, so people will be able to out it to use for the benefit of themselves and their horses. It has to be a togetherness...Without that understanding we might just as well throw the whole thing in the creek." - page 11

"Some people feel the rider makes a mistake when the pressure isn't released AFTER the horse comes through. It is released when the horse is going to yield - that is the time when you ease the pressure, BEFORE it happens. IF YOU SEE THAT IT IS GOING TO HAPPEN, I'd say you withdraw your pressure BEFORE it happens, because if he is starting to do it, and the pressure is still there, it's in the way of the horse. He is trying to use his own mind and body to do this, and if the person won't allow that to happen, he interferes with the process." - page 20

I've just started skimming thru the book, and I may be taking this wrong. It is easy to read one's preconceived ideas into something.

But it seems to me he is talking about what I've called 'The Power of We' - that seemingly innate desire of the horse to be part of a team, and the way we humans can offer them a form of teamwork that other horses rarely do.

It seems to me if you set boundaries, and tell the horse there are certain things you cannot tolerate, and then give him freedom and real choices within those boundaries, you allow the horse to come to you. By genuinely making the horse a part of the team, you give him something the horse craves - but in return, you have to listen to him and honor choices made within your boundaries.

"Some people will ride a horse as long as the horse lives and they will never get what I try to get just as early as I can, for a foundation. I don't mean that I'm trying to get everything completed, but to get enough there to where if the horse gets troubled he will come to me; or to where I can get him to come to me for security and cover. Without that foundation I feel very insecure on a horse...

...The best thing I try to do for myself is try to listen to the horse. I don't mean to let him take over. I listen to how he is operating; what he's understanding or what he doesn't understand; what's bothering him and what isn't bothering him...

...Usually, the horse is supposed to do everything the rider decides to do. I LIKE TO WORK FROM WHERE THE HORSE IS, TO GET HIM TO BE ABLE TO OPERATE WHEREVER AND WHENEVER I NEED HIM." - page 13

I have come to feel very insecure on a horse who won't talk to me. If they won't talk to me, then they can end up feeling trapped. Then they explode. But my daughter is right, "_Horses are very practical creatures. The reason more horses don't talk is that so few people listen - and horses see no value wasting time talking to someone who refuses to listen._"

That doesn't mean you let the horse take over, but you do allow him to seek a compromise that works for you both, so you both can then act as a team. From what I've seen so far, and I'm experimenting with it...if you make a suggestion (not command), and the horse accepts it and takes responsibility for performing it, then you HAVE removed the pressure before the horse has acted. You DO get out of the way, and the horse performs because you and the horse are a team, and the horse wants his team to win!

Anyways...it is another slender volume, and I can already see how many would get frustrated reading it. I already have in spots. He jumps around and switches gears a lot. OTOH, he may be discussing what I'm trying to learn. But not entirely, certainly! I've read some pages where I have no clue at all what he is saying or why. It is entirely possible he is often writing about things beyond me, so I can understand the part my horses have taught me, but not the stuff we haven't ever gotten to...yet.

But like Ray Hunt's small book, it seems to be very much about the *mutual teaching* that should go on between horse and rider - and can go on when the rider listens to the horse. It is pretty obvious to me that horses listen to us FAR better than we listen to them!

---------------------------------

BTW - winds are 30 gust to 45. I've no desire at all to ride today!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

The way I have used Dorrances book is to take what I can from it each time I read it. You won’t understand some of it at first but, you understand some and try to apply it. 

Then a while later you are working with a horse and a lightbulb goes off about an explanation that stuck in your head and you wondered at the time what he meant by that….now you get it! Curious, you go back and re-read. 

Once again, you get a few more concepts on the 2nd round that you didn’t understand the first time but there are still others that are puzzling. You go out and work with the horses some more and months go by and it happens again, now you understand what was once perplexing. You head back to the book again.

It just keeps going on and on...confusion, lightbulb moment, confusion, lightbulb moment. It's like Willie Wonka's everlasting gobstopper.

That is how it went for me anyway.


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## Hondo

I've got True Unity. Tom Dorrance is not an English Literature graduate or major. He's just an old time cowboy that is so close to horses that he is hard to understand.

Einstein said the hardest part of what he understood was finding ways to put it into words that others could understand. Einstein then understood things about the universe that were not attached to words. I think it is the same with Tom Dorrance and horses.

To really understand him I think demands a whole new plane of thinking.

Yes, when I first read the book, I thought........what???? But I did read Zen and The Art of Archery, a few times, and have watched TV specials showing what Zen masters could do that is unimaginable.

But I don't think Zen necessarily has anything to do with Tom, or Albert. Anybody that is at the top of their game, and then beyond, seem to reach a point where it is difficult to impart what they know to most. Or at all until that "whole new plane of thinking" is reached.

That said, I'm far from that point.

Only recently I read where a few pages of Zen and the Art of Archery was sent to him for comment.

He underlined, "the archer is surprised when the arrow flies". There really is a subconscious operating in all of us. It is impossible for our sequential conscious mind to direct us to run backwards, reach behind us, and catch a flying baseball. It's too too slow.

But we can do it. Well, some can. There are things we are doing every day every second that are directed from an area of ourselves that we are not aware of. Reaching into that is what the practice of Zen, umm, practices. Going above our controlling selves and allowing a deeper self to act.

I think Tom reached into that just by reaching as far as he could into the horse.

One author offered that Tom had no ego. Becoming egoless has been described as one of the objectives, or is it outcomes, of Zen.

The part of us that is actually running backwards reaching behind has no ego.

Ok, nuff of that. I'm not even close to any of it.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Zen-ness (is that even a word?) is relative to “other”. Are you closer to Zen than you were yesterday? If so, then you are on the correct path. That path never ends. 

Those who are egoless realize that they will never reach the end. It is not success they seek, only truth and enlightenment. If it is success you seek, you are already doomed to fail.


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## bsms

I suspect Tom Dorrance tends to REVEAL what the horse has taught us. He verbalizes what we have to first experience.

The operational test and evaluation guy in me rebels against it. I like clear directions. In that sense, I really DO think Tom Roberts is a much better writer for a new rider to learn about horses. I suspect Tom Dorrance would have appreciated Tom Roberts, and vice versa. But I think a good writer - or maybe a good editor helping the writer - should give something more concrete and less zen. A good editor would have pressed Tom Dorrance to discuss examples, or suggested metaphors that might help someone understand.

I got another book today. It is the third in a series Tom Moates has written. The first was worthless, IMHO. Parelli to the gills. The second started introducing ideas by Harry Whitney.

In the third, he gives a very good discussion of what I mean by boundaries, in a chapter called, "Electric Fences Don't Chase Horses". An electric fence can give quite a zap to a horse. Painful, even. Yet horses don't fear the electric fence, and might graze happily inches away. That is because the horse understands: If he doesn't try to cross, the fence leaves him alone. The fence is a firm limit, but it never chases or harasses the horse. Only the horse can make the fence zap him. The horse controls the zap, and thus the horse is at peace.

I find my horses seem to understand boundaries better than control.

It is all well and good to be the horse's lawyer, but if the lawyer fails to convince the jury, the client gets convicted. I think the Hunt / Dorrance books may prove valuable to me, but they could be much more valuable if more concrete. As it is, I suspect many who need to hear them the most will not, to the horse's detriment.


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## Hondo

bsms said:


> The horse controls the zap, and thus the horse is at peace.


That is actually pretty good. My horses are around an electric fence every day. Well, they think they are. Hasn't been turned on in over a year.

Another way to look at it rather than being in control might be, "If I don't bother it, it won't bother me".

I have to tell about when Rimmey first got introduced to my fence about a year and a half ago. All 20+ horse were here milling around. Some had been introduced, some not.

When Rimmey touched the fence, he whirled around and attacked everyone that was anywhere near him in herd status. I read it as, "Somebody did that. If I get everyone I'll at least get the culprit". He finally settled down.

It was funny at the time. He was MAD!!


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## Hondo

Thought occurred to me while outside puttering and pondering. I wonder how many books on horses Tom Dorrance read on the way to the mastery that he did achieve?


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I have one that he was said to have particularly enjoyed called "Kinship With All Life". 

You can probably find it for free somewhere on the net because it was written back in 1954. It is the story of a German Shepherd called "Strongheart" and his handler's experiences with the almost eerie ability of the dog to communicate and understand humans.


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## bsms

Hondo said:


> ...I wonder how many books on horses Tom Dorrance read on the way to the mastery that he did achieve?


My guess is not many. According to the introduction in the book, he recommended the one mentioned and "Dressage" by Henry Wynmalen. It also said when asked if there were any books to read, he replied, "_There may be, but I have not read it yet_."

But he grew up on horses, and I started at 50. At one point, his Dad had 150 horses. I have three. And he met a lot of very experienced riders, and I've met very few.

Books can't teach you everything, but they can teach a person a lot. The principles taught by Tom Roberts were huge in giving me a foundation to stand on when puzzling out what to do next. What he wrote about horses and freedom and not forcing a horse to go exactly where he wanted was huge - for me, and thus for Mia, and Bandit has benefited from it as well.

It was a rider on HF who sent me a PM suggesting I might try a curb bit with Mia, and that PM may have saved Mia's life - because she was getting dangerous and no one around me seemed to know what to try next. It was a suggestion on this thread that introduced me to using sheepskin on a saddle, and I now view it as more essential for safety than a helmet - AND a great way to learn to move with the horse!

It is very important to go test the ideas one reads. I've read a lot of utter horse pucky, and some of that from very experienced riders. Many of the things written about dressage, particularly about how a horse balances, moves and best learns motion, is either simply wrong or inadequate - see the thread on 'rounding backs' for a discussion. But I'm way too old to try to learn only from the horse. I believe horses are our best teachers, but I learn a lot from books and from reading about peoples' experiences with their horses here on HF.


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## Hondo

@bsms What's the deal with sheepskin?


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## bsms

This is my saddle, plain. It is 16", which works OK for me with a padded seat but too big for me as a slick seat, slick swell saddle:








​ 
The problem is that it is like skating on ice. At any sudden change in the horse's speed or direction, either I'm braced against that motion with the stirrups...or my butt slides. I can recover, but any time my rump is sliding, I'm not moving with the horse. In cantering, some folks say to scoop the saddle, or to "polish it" with your seat. But the truth is my saddle moves with the horse, and any time my rump is sliding, I'm NOT with my horse.








​ 
What shocked me when I tried to shrink my saddle with a sheepskin was how incredibly easy it made it to simply move with the horse. No sliding. Even if Bandit leaps into a walk to canter transition - which he does when we are in the arena because the arena is small and he has a tough time with the tight turns - even when he leaps into it, my rump just follows the motion. I can be relaxed, doing nothing with the stirrups, nothing to anticipate the change - and my body just goes along with the horse. That is probably the closest thing I can do to imitate a spook-based jump forward. With the sheepskin, WE just leap forward.

I had people tell me it was easier to learn to canter bareback than in a saddle. If so, then it is probably because the horse's back is muscle and hair and it grips you the way the sheepskin does.

I don't know why. Not for certain. But I do know it makes staying very steady on the saddle and horse very easy. It has improved my cantering even when I take it off, because it taught me what the horse's actual motion was.

And where I first noticed it was when Bandit would slam on the brakes - something he has largely stopped doing. But when he did, I didn't slide forward. At all. It is like having a super-rough out saddle, covered in sticky stuff - except comfortable! The extended version gives grip to my thighs (not my knees). And it is automatic.

So I've taken to calling it butt velcro. I insisted my wife use it. I told my daughter after her first fall a while back that if she didn't want to use a helmet, then she WOULD use the sheepskin.

Once in a while, I will ride without it. That helps me to check my position and balance. But 90% of the time, I go with sheepskin - and plan to for the rest of my life. I consider it a safety device, and I think it helps more than a helmet does.

Of course, it doesn't rain here either...:wink:...but it takes me about 2-3 minutes to put it on, and about 1 minute to remove...


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## Hondo

There goes my budget again..................


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## Hondo

@bsms


Still pondering. I'm leaning toward the notion that the fact that Tom Dorrance was raised around 150 horses and many experienced horse people does not in any way account for the degree or level to which he could interact and work with horses. And people.

I'm thinking that it seems much of that had to come somewhere from within, who he was, inner core, or something along those lines.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Have you ever met someone briefly in say a store or a bar that just the proximity of them raised the hairs on the back of your neck and you just knew deep down they were bad news? Not at all based on appearances, but on feel. Perhaps the opposite has happened where you saw someone and you just immediately knew they were a person of the best kind?

I ran into a man in a Wal-Mart once that had that latter effect on me. We met in line as a hurricane approached us and we were all in the scramble of buying last minute supplies. People tend to get really self centered in times of crisis. His "vibe" was so different than anyone around us. 

I went home and told my husband that I thought I had just spoken with what felt like an angel on earth. There was just some kind of light that shone from him that I cannot explain. 

That was decades ago but it must have made an impression on my husband because recently he came home and said he just had a similar encounter in the equipment rental line at Home Depot. 

I think that same instinct that we have so long buried as humans is what horses use to see us from the inside out.


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## bsms

I think there are people who like horses and want to work with them, and people who like riding horses and who care about obedience first and foremost.

I think some of it came from inside Tom, but I don't know how many years of trying were involved before he began to pick things up, and I'm 100% certain that a large part of his actual ability to DO things with horses had its roots in his large experience.

Philosophically, after 8 years with 2 horses, I'm headed in some of the same direction - independently, having read nothing by the Dorrance brothers or Hunt until last week. I've obviously been helped a great deal by people like Tom Roberts, but some of it has simply been watching the horses and trying things. I've been influenced, unfortunately, by other approaches as well - and I tried them, and rejected them because they did not work for me.

The first time I realized that horses are not straight-line dominance, and that a horse could back down and still be a leader, was from watching Mia & Lilly interact just a few months after I got Mia. There are people with decades of experience who tell others to never back down, that you can never let the horse win - and I think that comes from inside them, their need to dominate others, combined with a refusal to watch horses.

But I'd bet Tom Dorrance could do in minutes what might take me months, because my interaction with horses is less sure, and I miss a huge number of opportunities that he would respond to without thinking. I simply cannot have the feel he had, based on 8 years and mostly with 2 horses! And I never will!

That is why much of my thought runs to how a NEWBIE needs to interact and train and ride a horse. A genuinely good rider, for example, with ample experience, may never have a problem keeping the stirrup on using the ball of foot position. Harry Chamberlin, a genuine expert rider, recommended the home position for a beginning rider because a beginner needed the stirrups more, and could keep them on better when things got wild if he used the home position.

Over time, my stirrups have moved forward some, but I'll always ride deeper in the stirrups than a lot of people say. I think it works well for someone who rides a few hours a week, and who needs to anticipate things getting rambunctious at times. What an expert does is irrelevant to me, because I'm NOT an expert and never will be. That was a point Littauer made. He said new riders shouldn't imitate great riders, because great riders had better balance than average people, and they rode more in a day than average riders ride in a week - so they COULD do things well that average riders could not do.

I think that applies to training as well. I'm 58. If Bandit stays healthy, I may never own another horse. I don't enjoy riding every day, and I don't enjoy riding for 3+ hours - just as well, because there is no water around here for a horse! But I will never, ever be an expert.

Just as Littauer taught an "Elementary Level of Control" for new riders - and thought many regular riders ought to stay at that level for their entire lives - I think many of us need a simpler approach to training and working with a horse. Maybe cruder. Maybe less effective. But horses are forgiving creatures if you care about them, and slow but steady beats trying to bite off more than a newbie can chew. 

An approach to teaching newbies must also be something they can read and understand, or, at most, watch a short video on and understand. If I'm going to fault Ray Hunt and Tom Dorrance, I would fault them for failing to communicate their ideas. I really believe an "HF Annotated Guide to the Dorrance Brothers and Ray Hunt" would be hugely valuable to new riders - with the understanding that Littauer had, that *many of us will ALWAYS be "new riders"*!

My approach to riding and training is like a 5 Ingredient Cookbook. No one becomes a master chef using 5 ingredients a meal, but some of us NEED to know how to make something edible. Period. Because edible is an improvement over what we would get otherwise.

Riding position. Use of reins. Basic training of a horse. If I can find a way to make me and my riding "edible" to the horse, then I'll be happy. I won't ever be a gourmet rider. I know that and my horses understand that. They will be happy with me if I can be a good 5 Ingredient Rider. And FWIW, *I think a "good 5 Ingredient Rider" would still out-ride and out-train a lot of very experienced, life-long riders! *Simply caring and being willing to listen to the horse can put a 5 Ingredient Rider ahead of many of the life-long riders I see (and read and hear and view).


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## Hondo

I just re-read the introduction to True Unity.

In the introduction Bill Dorrance describes how Tom was a "peacemaker" from an early age when any of the brothers got into an argument. That may well have been the basis on how he approached horses and why he was so successful with them.

And based on what RCD said, "I think that same instinct that we have so long buried as humans is what horses use to see us from the inside out", part of it may just have been what the horses saw when they looked at Tom.

Ray Hunt had a horse named Hondo! Awesome! And my middle name happens to be Ray. And my son and grandson's middle name also.


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## Bondre

Hondo said:


> Ray Hunt had a horse named Hondo! Awesome! And my middle name happens to be Ray. And my son and grandson's middle name also.


I've always wants to ask you how Hondo acquired his name? It seems an odd sort of name for a horse, though nice if you consider the meaning of Hondo in Spanish (which I presume is its origin). Hondo means deep, which just like in English can be depth of water or depth of philosophical thought, or anything in between referring to depth. Seems appropriate for the lines this conversation is running along now.


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## Hondo

Cool! I'm liking the name Hondo better now.

As the story goes, Hondo was purchased at an auction that was held at the onset of the GREAT recession. He came with the name Hondo and the new owners did not change it. Nothing is known about his background other than the lady who sold him more or less had him in her backyard and the new owners said from the sound if it, he was a pet.

There were people frequently at that time offering the ranch horses for free. People losing their jobs, their house, their little acreage and so on. Horses were dirt cheap at that point I'm told.

They liked the looks of Hondo and brought him home. He was a fully developed treat hound. But he knew cattle as it turned out. Knew side passing to gates etc. So they used him a few years until he almost got out from under the owner at a gallop chasing cattle. Yep, spooked at a gallop. Her youngest daughter, born and raised on the ranch and now in her early thirties said Hondo was the only horse that ever got out from under her. That was at a walk down a wash.

When I was first here feeding 23 horses night and morning, my first impression of Hondo was when I looked over and saw him on his knees, head turned sideways and flat on the ground and slid under a pipe panel straining to reach a single pelled he had spied in a locked pen.

Some time later I was trying to get a piece of baler twine on a horse to lead him to the pens where the others would normally follow. But they were on the South side of the house where they always acted spooky for some reason and no one wanted me to put a rope/string on them.

And then up strutted Hondo, right up beside me and almost touching my shoulder, with a look on his face that I interpreted as saying, "Here, take me. The rest will follow". I did and they did. He knew he wasn't getting anything to eat until everyone got in their pens and he was hungry.

Even though not particularly popular on the ranch, every person agreed that Hondo had personality.

Below is a picture of when I was going to start riding Hondo on roundups as a trial to see how I did. They did not want to sell him to me unless it was a match. They also decided to have me sign a waver hee hee.

The next picture is several months later after I had his fecal tested and finding him loaded with small and large strangles had been treated and put on a few pounds. And I've lost 20 pounds since that picture. Can you guess from where?

















Sorry, you asked a teenie question about Hondo but once I start talking about Hondo it takes me a while to rein myself in


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## Bondre

Hondo said:


> And then up strutted Hondo, right up beside me and almost touching my shoulder, with a look on his face that I interpreted as saying, "Here, take me. The rest will follow"....
> Sorry, you asked a teenie question about Hondo but once I start talking about Hondo it takes me a while to rein myself in


It sounds like Hondo chose you - perhaps he wanted to go back to being somebody's pet again instead of one ranch horse amongst 23. These are the sorts of stories I love reading about people's horses 

He's a nice-looking fellow. Funny I realise that although I've studied umpteen photos of his hooves, I haven't seen many of his whole handsome self.


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## Hondo

On a cold winter morning when the sun and breakfast rendered him unable to stand.


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## bsms

bsms said:


> ...According to the introduction in the book, he recommended the one mentioned and "Dressage" by Henry Wynmalen. It also said when asked if there were any books to read, he replied, "_There may be, but I have not read it yet_."...


If anyone was thinking of reading Henry Wynmalen's book...don't. Unless it is free. And then read it looking for an occasional nugget of goodness lurking in the BS.

For example, only the most highly trained horses can move under control on a loose rein. "_Normally, the horse is in a sense a prisoner, enclosed between the effects of hand and leg._" And, "_So, in any serious riding, we use both hands; there is not the slightest merit in trying to do with one hand that which can be done infinitely better with two._"

Spurs and whips are essentials for riding. Not to punish, of course, but as necessary ways of communicating. And without a spur, one is left with just a clumsy heel - which I suppose may be clumsy, if your goal includes keeping the horse a prisoner between your hand and leg! :shrug:

Discussions of center of gravity are utterly meaningless, he says, since on cannot know exactly in advance what the horse's center of gravity will be - as though we cannot feel it and do not, in fact, almost instinctively try to match it with our own.

The loin of the horse, BTW, cannot carry any weight, since the spine functions to carry weight, and the spine is reinforced by the ribs. So where the ribs are not, the horse cannot bear any weight - regardless of the fact that they undeniably do - just as I can carry an 80 lb sack of pellets on one shoulder, well offset from my spine.

Perhaps the greatest divergence is revealed in a section where he and I are also strongly in agreement:

"_In training a horse, we are in reality trying to form a partnership, wherein the horse shall supply the motive power and the rider the directing power or brain. But the horse is possessed of a brain himself, and this cannot be short-circuited...the horse and the rider must learn to think alike, in order to be able to act alike._"

The first underlining highlights were I disagree, and where I in fact dislike much of traditional or classical dressage - the horse is the muscle and we are the brain. Fundamental to how I wish to ride - even if it means I will never go beyond being a 5 Ingredient Rider - is that I believe horses can be taught judgment, and SHOULD be taught judgment, and that the secret of good riding is to truthfully convince the horse that he WANTS to do what the rider also wants to do - normally. But it also includes the concept that the horse can and should refuse the rider at times, and that is what makes horse and rider a real team and not a phony one.

But I also agree that all our work is done through the horse's mind, and that "_the horse and the rider must learn to think alike, in order to be able to act alike_".

I can see some nuggets of goodness, but I find them overwhelmed by a lack of understanding about how a horse moves and how a horse carries weight.

But in fairness - he writes with a very different goal in mind. He views dressage riding, which he says needs to be done in a level, controlled arena, as the pinnacle of riding. I view any riding that must be done on level, smooth ground as circus training. And while I believe some dressage riders manage to make their horses full participants - I think the current Olympic champion has done it - I also think it takes a truly gifted rider to do so.

And in fairness, I really like what Harry Chamberlin wrote about position and balance, but dislike his approach to reins and spurs as strongly as Chamberlin disliked western riding and riders! But this is NOT a book I'd recommend to anyone who doesn't consider Haute Ecole the supreme goal of riding. And even then, too much of what he writes simply conflicts with what I have watched and ridden and done. I do not understand how anyone can reasonably expect to train a horse in movements if one does not first understand what the horse DOES to get that motion.


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## Hondo

bsms said:


> ...According to the introduction in the book, he recommended the one mentioned and "Dressage" by Henry Wynmalen. It also said when asked if there were any books to read, he replied, "There may be, but I have not read it yet."...


I have True Unity and just re-read the introduction which is by Bill Dorrance. There is no mention of Henry Wynmalen or the "I have not read it yet" quote in my book. Mine is Seventh printing March 1994 but there is no indication of a different copyright other than the original in 1987.

The prologue by Milly Hunt Porter does mention the "I have not read it yet" quote but again does not mention Henry Wynmalen.

About where in the introduction did you see Henry WYnmalen? I've read it twice in the last few days without seeing it but still, I could have missed it.


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## bsms

Prologue, page xvi, footnote. Mine has a copyright of 2010, 21st printing 2013.


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## Hondo

Well shoot. I missed the footnote. Yep, years later after the quote she says he reccomended that and another book.

I got mine off Amazon used so and older copyrite.


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## Hondo

Wow, did you read the reviews on Amazon? It wasn't free but for $0.68 it almost was so I ordered it. 

I also went ahead and ordered Kinship With All Life. It was $0.01.

All plus shipping of course.


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## bsms

I read the reviews. I disagree with them, but then, someone who learned riding by reading VS Littauer probably wouldn't be enthused about a book that considers a vertical head as an essential of fine riding. Mind you, he does NOT advocate pulling the horse's head to that position, far from it! But he considers it an essential result of fine riding, while I think the horse ought to be free to look where he is going - AND to think about it!

And the western rider in me rejects his idea that the hands serve to regulate the horse's balance. After all, I think it is desirable to ride with intermittent contact, and believe the horse should be trained to regulate his OWN speed and balance. Good luck trying to regulate a horse's balance climbing out of a wash using the reins - and pity the horse whose rider tries!

There are quite a few areas where I disagree with him, but then, my disagreement is with the fundamental approach of classical dressage - what it considers desirable balance, motion, and how it treats the horse's mind.

On another thread, Hondo, you discuss a horse moving to avoid being hit by a rope. Is that willing movement? Well, yes...in a way. And that approach may be needed at times. But I think true willing movement, and true unity with the horse, comes when the horse WANTS to do what the rider suggests because he has learned that the rider is worth obeying - because the horse's mind agrees with the rider's mind. Only then will it be true that "_the horse and the rider must learn to think alike, in order to be able to act alike_".

That may be a much higher goal than what I'll ever achieve, but I won't even come close unless I try...and I have, sometimes, hit it.


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## tinyliny

I think Ray, and Bill , and Tom, would be worried if they thought that their books caused a person to doubt themselves as a horse person, and consider horsemanship something that is more learnable by books than by doing.

in fact, I think they'd be distraught about that.
remember , they brought forth these ideas in a time when most horse people felt that if force didnt' work, there was no other way, . . . certainly not any that was not laughable.


but, these authors came to their conclusions by trial and error, and while they might have 'ruined' several horses in the growing up of their knowledge, YOU might not have to do that. 

still, NO , and I mean NO horsemanship can be totally booklearned. 
if that were the case, there'd be no real, bone seated reason for learning to ride. if we should ever lose that, this 'bone seated reason' for learning how to coexist with animals that are many times our weight , yet dependent on us, . . well then, who cares about any of this. it's tine to consign it to history books.,


it HAS TO BE something truly, and only, learned by 'feel'. and 'feel' cannot be transmitted with ink and page. only a shadow of it can be taught. 

you want it? you must seek it beyond any online libraby or Amazon sold text.


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## bsms

​ 
"We are like dwarfs sitting on the shoulders of giants. We see more, and things that are more distant, than they did, not because our sight is superior or because we are taller than they, but because they raise us up, and by their great stature add to ours." 

- 12th century theologian and author John of Salisbury​ 
Standing on the shoulders of giants - meaning and origin.​ 
For my part, I don't claim to see very far at all. But when I look at horsemanship, I prefer to do it like a dwarf sitting on the shoulders of giants. I cannot afford to look while standing on my own feet. I'm too short! 

I've always liked this quote from one of the "giants":

"Because of the widespread preconception that you can only learn, in a sort of intuitive way, by doing, and that reading or even thinking seriously about riding is rather pointless, too many young riders are doomed to groping too long in a forest of problems solved long ago. I can recall my astonishment, when I first began to collect books on the techniques of riding, at finding, in books written two or three centuries ago, minute descriptions of "discoveries" that I had made for myself only after a long period of trial and error...Once we become interested in learning about riding, and are not content to repeat interminably the same errors, there is much that we can learn." - William Steinkraus, Riding and Jumping, 1961.

I started at 50. 58 now. I don't have time to waste "groping too long in a forest of problems solved long ago"! So I read, and then try to see if what I read works. In the case of this last book, I can see a number of things that DO work, and a great many that do NOT - at least, not for someone with my goals in riding.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I find this interesting….Tiny with the soul of an artist and BSMS with the soul of an engineer. 

So I will posit this question: Is horsemanship equine science or is it an art?


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## tinyliny

You'd have to answer , then, what separates science from art.


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## Hondo

tinyliny said:


> You'd have to answer , then, what separates science from art.


I'll have to jump in here and say that one of the basic tenets of scientific knowledge is that evidence supporting that knowledge must be repeatable.

I have read that that true jazz is never played the same twice. I'd think that would be the same for painting or any other form of art as a self expression in a moment of time.

My view or understanding of art is that it is a self expression from within, and of science that it is a collection of knowledge from without.


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## Bondre

In my opinion, unequivocally an art. Horsemanship requires feel, and feel is neither scientific nor repeatable. For sure that books or any other form of information can be invaluable but all the book knowledge or theory in the world won't make you into a good horseman until you develop feel for your horse. 

In science a+b should always equal c, if that is their established relationship, whereas with a horse there are so many variables that a+b could equal anything from c through to z. In fact, the same is true of any biological system and I have read RCD's question applied to biology too - is it an art or a science? I think biology is a science but a softer, more borderline one than physics, for example. It is the art in biology, the variables, that make it fascinating to me. And what about psychology? Reiningcatsanddogs, I've lobbed the ball into your court. Is psychology an art or a science?


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Bondre said:


> And what about psychology? Reiningcatsanddogs, I've lobbed the ball into your court. Is psychology an art or a science?


It depends what philosophy you follow (please note the irony in that response). 

If you are a strict behaviorist then it is a soft science. If you are an experimental psychologist then you are also more to the facts and figures side. If you are a cognitist, you are both because while the medical side of it is part of your understanding, you know that it cannot explain all and in practical application it is all very much about feel for the individual you are working with and your ability to read them in order to help them in a way that works for them specifically.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

tinyliny said:


> You'd have to answer , then, what separates science from art.


Tinyliny, here is the difference between science and art that I think you can relate to; paint by numbers. There is a scientific component to painting that allows one to paint by numbers and get a reasonably good painting. Light hits at certain angles, creating shadow that is perceived by the eye a certain way to create depth. By the magic of science everyone can be an artist! Not. I have never run across though, a paint by numbers painting that conveys feeling like those done by an artist with their heart put into it free hand. That is what makes y'all special. Put what you see to a scientific equation and something gets lost there.

In dancing it is the difference between doing correct steps to the beat of the music and expressing the music with each of your steps through your whole body. I can do the steps that Ginger Rodgers can but, she was an artist so I will never dance like her.


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## Hondo

While waiting for RCD's response, I'll venture that the study of and research into psychology is a science, the application of which is an art.

BTW, Xenophon agrees that horsemanship is an art.


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## bsms

I think horsemanship is an art informed by science - and I think too many seek art at the expense of science.

For example, the horse's back does not "round up". Period. I don't care what horse you buy, or how you train him, the horse is not a cat. The horse's back will NOT round up. Attempts to make him round his back, which he cannot do, may eventually allow you to stumble with the horse into a way of making you FEEL he is rounding his back, but neither the journey nor the end result is likely to be very pleasurable to the horse!

What we find is that horses who adjust their stride to make it feel they are rounding their backs end up with higher peak impact on their front hooves, caused by a theory that says it will lengthen their lives by reducing it instead!

Part of the way a horse can imitate a rounded back is by using the muscles in the shoulder to lift the spine a little, and help bear the higher peak impact forces. This is called "building the topline". And it does CHANGE the topline. But is it changing it in a desirable way, or is it like a bodybuilder who focuses on his biceps and ignores the rest of his arm?

If one ignores the science, then one can justify the art. If one looks at the science, then it becomes harder to justify.
."Ideally, the horse’s energy should travel from his thrusting hindquarters through his back and to the bit. Then the energy should recycle, transferring some weight from the front end back to the hindquarters. This circle of energy is ongoing. Let’s take a look at how that happens...

 ...As we’ve explained, the horse’s energy should travel from his thrusting hind leg, through his back, to the bit. However, if the energy went only from back to front and stopped there, then the horse would lean on the bit and be heavy. That’s what happens when a rider drives the horse forward and forgets to half-halt.

 Most riders understand that the energy needs to get from the hindquarters to the bit, but some forget that there must also be a connection through the bit to the hindquarters. When the rider uses rebalancing half-halts as frequently as the driving aids, the horse’s energy recycles."

 ...The German word for this concept is Abstossen. When the horse pushes of from the bit, he continues to reach forward, but the energy “bounces of” the bit and transfers to an engaged hind leg that is flat on the ground and carrying weight. Then the horse thrusts again to perpetuate an ongoing cycle of energy...

 ...Abstossen is a German riding term meaning 'to push oneself off'. The official instruction handbook of the German National Equestrian Federation, Advanced Techniques of Dressage, states:

 “Pushing off from the bit is a sign that the horse is fully accepting the contact.... [The horse] yields to the contact by bouncing back lightly and almost imperceptibly from the bit. The rider feels the contact become even lighter and more refined.... In a correctly trained horse which ‘comes through,’ bouncing back or pushing away from the contact is...a frequently repeated process....” - November 2013 • USDF Connection​.

That apparently SOUNDS good, but it is mechanical drivel. A horse who is nervous about something ahead may well shorten his steps and lighten on the front end, and we might say he is 'recoiling in fear'. But the theory of dressage is that the recoiling motion of a nervous horse is also desirable in a calm horse. So how do you make a calm horse ACT as if he is recoiling in fear? By "Abstossen" - bouncing the horse off the bit.

You use your legs to urge him forward, but hurt him just enough in front to make him recoil a little. And then he lightens on the front end by increasing the impact on his front hooves to lift his front higher.

"But now suppose he has attained to the grand style when ridden—we have accustomed him of course in his first exercise to wheel and fall into a canter simultaneously; assuming then, he has got that lesson well by heart, *if the rider pulls him up with the bit while simultaneously giving him one of the signals to be off, the horse, galled on the one hand by the bit, and on the other collecting himself in obedience to the signal "off," will throw forward his chest and raise his legs aloft with fiery spirit*; though not indeed with suppleness, for the supple play of the limbs ceases as soon as the horse feels annoyance. But now, supposing when his fire is thus enkindled you give him the rein, the effect is instantaneous. Under the pleasurable sense of freedom, thanks to the relaxation of the bit, with stately bearing and legs pliantly moving he dashes forward in his pride, in every respect imitating the airs and graces of a horse approaching other horses. *Listen to the epithets with which spectators will describe the type of horse: the noble animal! and what willingness to work, what paces, what a spirit and what mettle; how proudly he bears himself — a joy at once, and yet a terror to behold.*" - Xenophon, On Horsemanship

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1176/1176-h/1176-h.htm

"Abstossen" - bouncing the horse off the bit. Art. But if science informs art, then it is art caused by what "Dressage" by Henry Wynmalen describes as the normal state of a well ridden horse:

"_Normally, the horse is in a sense a prisoner, enclosed between the effects of hand and leg._"​ 
If that is art, it is bad art. It is art that focuses on this:

"*Such are the horses on which gods and heroes ride, as represented by the artist.* The majesty of men themselves is best discovered in the graceful handling of such animals. *A horse so prancing is indeed a thing of beauty, a wonder and a marvel; riveting the gaze of all who see him*, young alike and graybeards. They will never turn their backs, I venture to predict, or weary of their gazing so long as he continues to display his splendid action." Xenophon

Art. But science and basic mechanics and even a casual observer know the horse is working much harder to cover less distance, and doing so to make his rider look like a hero to other humans. I'd rather be a hero to my horse.

That doesn't make it wrong to study or perform dressage for competitions, IF you can do so on a willing horse. And I think a horse will do a great many things willingly if made a part of the team. If you have the ability to teach the horse WE are performing this, then you get a performance such as I think I've seen the current Olympic champion get.

But it is an uncommonly hard thing to teach a horse to do cheerfully because it is, in the end, a circus performance - and that sort of performance is much further from the average horse's mind than simply going somewhere, working cattle, or jumping.

Indeed, when man concentrates on riding as art, man often ends up viewing the horse as a lump of clay, waiting to be molded. And clay doesn't have a mind. If the riding artist wishes to impose his will on the equine clay, the first step is to remove the horse's mind from the equation.

-------------------------------------------------------------

I also reject the idea that "feel" is neither teachable nor repeatable.

When we first got horses, we bought an unbroken Arabian mare named Lilly. The lady we hired to break her was very happy to have us work with her, so my wife and I did round pen and lunge work with an unbroken horse under the eye of a pro. And the lady would say, "Look at her ears. Look at here her head is. That means XYZ." And she was right. We could have spent a few years trying to figure it out. And a pro who has lived with horses will obviously have better feel than a beginner - but it IS teachable.

There were also videos back then of Chris Irwin available free. He would say, "When I go into the arena, I will do X, Y and Z. The horse will respond in this way to each." Then he would do it. And I could go out to my round pen, bring Lilly in, and replicate it.

We had a two year old horse, unridden, named Annie. I found her difficult to approach and halter. Chris Irwin said I needed to move a certain way, and lead her off in a certain way. When I went outside, I did it his way - and magically, all the problems went away! Annie was not broken or trained. We later gave her to the lady who broke Lilly, and she trained Annie and used her for years to give riding lessons. I think she has since sold her to one of her students. But what Chris Irwin predicted would happen did happen. With a totally unbroken horse. Because many things ARE repeatable.

You can try to learn balance by just getting on a horse, and falling off, and trying again until you eventually stop falling off. You could also read Littauer, think about what he says about "fluid balance", start with his "position" and then test yourself the way he says...and stay on a spooky mare who would spin, bolt, and throw on the brakes hundreds of times in the following years.

I've had one fall in 8 years, and that came when I was already trying to dismount and had one leg above Mia's back. Yet I've read on HF that a rider needs to fall 5, 10, 20 times - pick a number - in order to become an acceptable rider. In my riding environment, if I fall 20 times, I'll probably be dead. Or severely injured. Yet a combination of reading books, and then trying out what I read, and keeping what seemed to work and rejecting what seemed to fail, has done well by me. That doesn't mean I won't fall today, if my sore toe allows me to ride.

I do not have good balance. I am not and never have been athletic. I bring almost no natural ability to riding. It often takes me 15-30 minutes of riding just to feel comfortable on the horse! I've never met a rider with less natural ability than I have. So if I can learn to stay on Mia thru her spooks - and yes, 'cheat' with an Australian saddle - by reading and then trying, the physical art of riding can be taught via a combination of reading and trying.

I would never say "_Read a book. Now you can ride. Go do it!"_

But I will say, "_Read a good book before you first get on. Watch some good videos on how a horse communicates before you first get on. Then get on and start learning to apply what you read._"

*We have giants willing to carry us on their shoulders*. ​ 
Why do we insist on refusing the offer? And why is it we think other people should read our posts on HF, or that we should read theirs, if reading cannot help? If riding is not rooted in mechanics and behavioral science, then why hire an instructor? If painting is totally art, then why take lessons?


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## Alhefner

bsms said:


> But I will say, "_Read a good book before you first get on. Watch some good videos on how a horse communicates before you first get on. Then get on and start learning to apply what you read._"


Agreed! It's what I'm doing now. As for the falling off thing, I also credit my old roping saddle for the fact that I haven't ended up on the ground through Barney's spin/spook sessions and stayed on during his one and only bucking episode.


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## tinyliny

no one said Feel is unteachable. it just can't be gained without actual experience. it has to be 'done', not just understood, intellectually.

'feel' is only one half of a dialogue. without the horse, providing the other half, it cannot exist. and, every horse, in every moment is a bit different, thus the human's response, his 'feel', depends on what the horse is saying.


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## Hondo

In defence of the concept of The Art of Horsemanship, to me, horsemanship does not include veterinary experience or knowledge, nor would, IMO, knowledge of the anatomy of the horse's back.

To me, and it may be only to me, the art of horsemanship more or less begins and ends with the mind to mind relationship with the horse.

Veterinary, farrier, anatomy and so on would, I think, be properly placed in the Science of Horsemanship, which in itself is very important for any owner or rider to know. I am much more involved in learning the science of horsemanship than I am in actual riding since I only walk, or stroll, around with Hondo and Rimmey.


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## bsms

Well...I don't think ANYONE has ever claimed one can learn to ride a horse or work with a horse without ever meeting a horse!

And I've got books on parenting. Some have good ideas (ones that match what I see when I try something) and some do not. But no one learns to be a parent or a teacher without exposure to kids!

My wife and I have gone to marriage counseling seminars. Particularly early on, it was nice to hear that others faced the same challenges. That we were not the only ones who argued over how to spend money, or time, or how to raise kids. I'm told some priests are good marriage counselors without ever having been married, but...sometimes a friend who says "_Of course! Jan & I face the same thing!_" is a huge help.

I've pointed out that no matter how hard I try, I cannot have the 'feel' of Tom or Bill Dorrance. I didn't grow up surrounded by 100+ horses! **** Francis, who became best known for writing mysteries, was a champion jockey. He said he didn't think it was realistic to become interested in being a jockey if you hadn't been riding by the early teens at the latest. He felt you could not be competitive at the top unless you started riding early, preferably as a small child.

I understand that. And I take a perverse sort of pride in calling myself a "5 Ingredient Rider". Someone who has 100 good 5 Ingredient Recipes is no gourmet, but he will be able to make a variety of OK meals. And in 99% of cases, that covers the requirement. That person is better off sticking to the 5 ingredient recipes than trying to attempt gourmet - just as VS Littauer argued a recreational rider is better off using a basic set of cues than trying to ride like a champion. Horses can be subtle, but they prefer clarity to subtlety!

If someone makes enough 5 ingredient meals, they WILL start to add in a few extra ingredients at times, or even learn to mix a few leftovers into something pretty good - what one college room mate of mine referred to as "What the Heck is This S___ Stew". And after 8 years, I do experiment with things a 5 Ingredient Rider should not - like cantering with continuous contact.

I know a few people who can pick up a foreign language in days. One guy was speaking in long conversations with Japanese after 5 days in Japan! But that is the exception. A person like myself, who takes up riding at 50, will never have "genius".

But my horses don't care. They don't ask for genius from me. They ask me for a "good faith effort" - which is also what I ask of them. Science and extensive reading provides a foundation for that good faith effort. It is certainly true that I will ride much better if I incorporate reading and science into my learning than if I just make it up as I go. And by doing "science experiments" - taking someone's theory out and finding what happens when I try it - I can sort the wheat from the chaff. There is a LOT of chaff, promoted by people who have become so expert that they have forgotten the horse!

---------------------------------

Got in my first ride in over a week. My toe nail bed is starting to toughen, and the last 4-5 days of high winds and rain have stopped. Bandit was a little touchy. I was more awkward than normal and stiff from weightlifting last night, so we stayed in the arena. After a few minutes, I decided to start a lesson on using a curb bit. We hadn't used one in a long time. So I put Mia's old bit on him, adjusted it, and we worked on turns and stops at walk. That will become the foundation for doing it at a trot, and that in turn will become the foundation for doing it at a canter - and THAT will be the foundation to using it regularly on a trail.

Bandit did his first spook in a long time. I have no idea what it was. I had also lengthened my stirrups. He was going along calm as could be, then suddenly we were dancing sideways - one of those "I'll save us!" type spooks. We moved over 50-60 feet, as far as there was room, then HE initiated a turn back to face the scary thing...and there was nothing there. I just stayed with him. His first ride in a curb bit (and mine!) in ages was NOT the time to get in his mouth and demand. The sheepskin helped.

And then I asked to move forward one step at a time, and he did. Then I asked him to turn sideways, and we did figure 8s as we slowly worked our way into the area he spooked at. He gave me one of those "_But it was HERE! It isn't now, but I SAW it! Really! Believe me..._" looks. And since he is a good hearted horse, and was trying, I did. Would Captain Kirk lie?










https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nightmare_at_20,000_Feet​
"_Admire the horse for the good things he does and just kinda ignore the wrong things. First thing you know, the good things will get better and the bad things will get less._" - Ray Hunt.


----------



## Reiningcatsanddogs

Loved that Twilight Zone episode! I was glad to see it make it into the movie. That is me on a plane BTW. I married a private pilot, son of a commercial pilot and I hate flying! I feel more secure giving my control to an unpredictable animal prone to flights of fancy and imaginary ******s than a machine and trained humans...go figure!


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## bsms

I'll confess - after spending much of my life strapping into ejection seats, I don't like getting on a plane without one...:wave:


----------



## Hondo

That'd be a good signature quote!

"Admire the horse for the good things he does and just kinda ignore the wrong things. First thing you know, the good things will get better and the bad things will get less." - Ray Hunt.

I really really really like that!


----------



## Bondre

bsms said:


> I think horsemanship is an art informed by science - and I think too many seek art at the expense of science....
> Why do we insist on refusing the offer? And why is it we think other people should read our posts on HF, or that we should read theirs, if reading cannot help? If riding is not rooted in mechanics and behavioral science, then why hire an instructor? If painting is totally art, then why take lessons?


I would never say that reading can't help everyone to learn. I love reading, and although I haven't read many actual books on horsemanship, I have received much useful inspiration from perusing the forum. 

But like with everything, what you read is only useful to you if you are ready to understand it. So doubtless I have read great posts in the past on working with nervous reactive horses, but it mostly went over my had until my own horse became nervous and reactive. Then thanks to my own experiences I was ready to comprehend better other people's advice. For example, Knightrider has written several excellent posts on working with a reactive horse bard on her wide experience and particularly her mare Isabeau. I have always enjoyed her posts but once Macarena started balking and going sideways and backwards, I could understand what she said so much better - and put it to good use. 

This is when the art (the experience and the feel) and the science (do this and the horse will react thus) combine, and when that happens then you can make real advances. So yes, I understand what you're saying about not everyone needing to rediscover the wheel for themselves. There's a huge amount of wisdom out there to tap into, and people who deny this are going to lose out. But just as the art without the science is a slow and inefficient way of learning (everyone has to reinvent the wheel for themselves) the science without the art is even more ineffective and prejudicial to true learning.


----------



## Hondo

Tom Dorrance does an excellent job, I think, of discussing the in's and out's of reading in the first two pages of the chapter Approach and Unity in the book True Unity for those who have it. Almost a summary to some degree of everything that's been said here.


----------



## tinyliny

i love flying. I will never forget the first time I flew, ever. at age 18. on a DC 9. the g force just made me feel so excited, so alive. maybe a fighter jet would be too much, but to me, the acceleration of take off still is one of those minor miracles I never cease to enjoy..


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## knightrider

Years ago, someone loaned me a copy of "Kinship with All Life" and I have to say it changed my life forever. I've thought about it many many times, and done things differently because of it. If you ever get a chance to read it, I recommend it.

Also, I want to say that I might be unique, but I really can't imagine that I am all that unique. When I was 12 years old, some school friends of mine got a two year old unbroken shetland pony stallion for Christmas. The family knew nothing about horses. In fact, they didn't even know he was unbroken. They brought him to the stable where I boarded my horse because they soon discovered they could not ride him, and they did not have a clue as to what to do. As a typical 12 year old, I said airily, "No problem. We'll just break him. _I have a book_." I had never broken a horse in my life, but I thought, "How hard can it be?" Every day we'd try whatever the book suggested, and as BSMS said, it worked. So the next day, we'd do the next thing. It wasn't long before they were riding the pony around with us. The book said what to do--we did it. It worked. A few months later, my mare surprised me with a foal (we didn't know she was pregnant) and with my limited experience, I waded right in and trained that colt too. We didn't geld him either. We just didn't know that was supposed to happen. This all happened in Ecuador, where macho guys ride only stallions, and stallions are bred there to be tractable and behave around mares. Ones that don't, don't stay stallions. They get gelded and sold to ladies. My point is, you can learn an awful lot from reading books.


----------



## Hondo

knightrider said:


> Years ago, someone loaned me a copy of "Kinship with All Life" and I have to say it changed my life forever.


My copy was ordered 9/30 and should be here soon. Looking forward.


----------



## gottatrot

Sorry to have missed such interesting discussions while I was away on vacation...I'll chime in late: I think there are many factors involved in the art and science of horsemanship.

For one thing, our brains are very diverse. One person might learn very well from reading, while others might only learn from doing. Some learn step by step and others make leaps as their brains connect multiple ideas together into a pattern. 

I also think how much artistry versus science we apply to our riding may depend on how we use our brain as an individual. The two could be thought of as synonymous in a certain way - meaning a very realistic AND artistic painting can be achieved either by a very artistic person who doesn't understand exactly how they decide to put the lines they make in certain places - going by feel, versus another science based artist who might use a grid system and mathematics to create the same thing.

In other words, your art might be my science. Two people might get a very good attitude and result from a horse but one might think they are applying feel, and another might think they are using logical and scientific steps. In my mind, someone like John Lyons is very much on the step by step logical side of training, while some natural horsemanship types are very much on the more artistic and feeling side of training. 

Probably most of us are somewhere in between. Horses are not machines, so no purely mechanical method can be applied to train them. They also are not magical beings, so no purely artistic method can be entirely successful either. 

I personally can be artistic, but my art must be guided by reasoning. My brain is not intuitive enough to just pick up on things and learn that way. I must understand concepts and work through ideas that guide and direct what I am doing. My photos are better if I understand how light affects a subject, and how my camera works. Others can do this by "feel." Some can also cook and do many things by artistry rather than books. I need books and concepts. 

I don't think we can say working more through feel is right or working more through science is right. We need to have both in the amount that our brain requires to get good results for ourselves. If I tried to work mainly through feel the way some people do (as I've seen and read), I'd be wandering around lost and so would my horse. My brain requires more concrete structure than that. But I believe a good deal of artistry and feel is also required in my horsemanship, it just in my case sometimes comes after the basic concept is mastered.


----------



## bsms

I'm going to quote myself at length, but these posts on other threads have everything to do with what I'm learning and seeing with Bandit - and I'll be darned if I want to re-write it all:



bsms said:


> There is a double trailer - a smaller trailer inside a larger trailer - with a couple of leaky gas cans parked on the road about 1/2 mile from me. The first time Bandit saw it, he refused. I ended up dismounting and leading him, but he wasn't convinced. Not really. So the next 3-4 times, we rode near it but turned away before getting there.
> 
> Yesterday, we rode there with Trooper. Trooper ignored the double trailer. Bandit kept Trooper between himself and the trailer...then stopped to eat grass about 5 feet past the trailer.
> 
> Had I pushed him, it would have become traumatic. By letting him see it a few times, getting a little closer but never very close...and then having Trooper near by...I think Bandit has now decided it is OK. And that may help a few months from now, when we next see a strange looking trailer or there are leaky gas cans making things smell bad.
> 
> I've spent 17 months trying to lay a foundation of "Talk to me. We will do it together, or not at all. You are never alone." That hasn't completely overwritten his "Just do it - or else!" experiences...but yesterday's ride was bitless, and he went past on slack reins. He's 8. Even if it takes me another year or two to get a truly solid foundation laid, I'll still have 15+ years of riding ahead (Lord willing)!
> 
> I cannot make him confident. I can give him chances to succeed, and let HIM teach himself confidence - in himself, and in me. And if it takes 2-3 years, but I can get 15 back in a trustworthy horse, it is a great investment.





bsms said:


> I may have learned riding on a horse who shares some of Duna's personality, but even 17 months with Bandit haven't erased some of the defensive bad habits I built. It is an interesting question: Would I be a better rider, or worse, if I had learned on another horse? My guess is worse. Not in terms of position or balance. I think I would have been so comfortable with the "Just do it!" training approach used locally and taught in many books that I would have never considered the horse as anything other than a servant.
> 
> On a different thread, a poster said their horse had the entire day to eat and be lazy, but when this person came to ride, 'This is MY time, and doing what I want is the horse's JOB!' - not an exact quote, but close. And I've heard it many times on HF. I now consider it to be an incredibly sad statement on human nature and how we treat horses - *but I shared it!*
> 
> I have a ton of books, and so many of them share that approach.
> 
> The YouTube flip side seems to be the Parelli-ish 'Your horse will do what you want if you are just nice and play games with her' - and that didn't work either! Without a horse like Mia, I would never have learned how to approach Bandit. *And I'll trade the bad habits I acquired in exchange for discovering 'We will ride together or not at all'...*
> 
> Of course, I didn't have anyone else in the area to let me know it was possible to ride any differently. So it is something of a false dilemma, based on where I live and where I grew up. And the beauty of HF - when it happens - is meeting people who also believe in "Let us ride together" versus "I will ride you"!





bsms said:


> Many accepted safe practices are like many accepted practices with horses: They survive for ages, unchallenged and untested.
> 
> It is said that some people have 40 years of experience, and others have a year of experience repeated 40 times. Certainly before the Internet, when even a very good bookstore might only have 1-2 books about riding and training, it was possible for one of those with a year of experience repeated 40 times to become the Gold Standard as a trainer. After all, Old Joe had been getting results for 40 years. Who better to learn from?
> 
> And no, I am not talking about any of the participants on this thread! There are a number of very experience riders on this thread, and each one of them is discussing ideas, not pontificating! As something of a newbie, it is nice to see experienced riders asking if there is a better way.
> 
> I like some of what Baucher taught and reject a lot more. I read a comment by a guy who knew Baucher. He said a horse who didn't respond to Baucher's method quickly was quickly and quietly sold. It seems Baucher's business model didn't include admitting failure. Having "The Method" and wowing crowds is not a new phenomena!
> 
> I'm glad I didn't take formal lessons very long. I've often seen written on HF something like, "My horse has the entire day to eat and be lazy. When I come to ride, it is MY time, and doing what I want is the horse's JOB!' And when taking lessons, it normally IS "the student's time". The student is paying, and the lesson horses pay the price. It IS their job! If there are 6 students, and the instructor says trot, EVERYONE is supposed to trot! And if a horse doesn't want to, the instructor isn't likely to point out the student is bouncing so much that the horse doesn't want to trot. Or that the horse has given 3 lessons earlier in the day and is sick of trotting in circles.
> 
> In a way, I'm giving my wife lessons in riding. After nearly 30 years of marriage, I'm not going to waste my time telling her to do X or Y or Z. But she rides Cowboy, and she and Cowboy and Bandit and I go riding. She's learning to balance and move in a trot because Cowboy trots to catch up to Bandit. As she gets better at it, Cowboy is willing to trot farther and faster, and they sometimes canter now. Briefly. It is R+ motivation for Cowboy. He wants to catch up to Bandit.
> 
> And my job is to make sure we don't get too far ahead, or to see the trotting is going well and ask Bandit for a trot, because two horses trotting near each other - even side by side sometimes now - is more enjoyable for the horses. It is even worth keeping a trot going across some short rocky spots - because the horses want to do it.
> 
> I mentioned going past the trailer. I wasn't sure if Bandit would do it. I mentioned it to my wife. Her reply?
> 
> "So what? If he doesn't do it today, we can turn around and go home the other way. Why does it matter if he does it today or next week?"​
> *"So what?"*​
> She may be new to riding, but she is also teaching me. That isn't bad advice for teaching a horse. "So what? Why does it matter if he does it today or next week?" I'd have stopped digging a hole with Mia, and climbed out a lot faster, if I had only asked myself, "So what?" Mia needed a solid foundation of confidence, and my training schedule and training goals didn't include giving her the time she needed. If lesson A was learned one day, we immediately went to B. Or maybe even jumped to D. *And if she couldn't do D, she failed!* The goals became the focus instead of the horse!
> 
> We tend to learn training by watching professional trainers. But professional trainers don't have 1 or 2 or 3 years to shape a horse. A famous Old West horse breaker said he could do a lot better with more time, but "*No one wants to put a $40 finish on a $10 horse!*" The numbers have changed, but I probably spent $2500 on a trainer for $1200 Mia after several years of floundering, and that only got Mia ready to ride in an arena. The trainer wasn't certain she would ever be safe to ride in the desert.
> 
> I think our conventional training methods are largely shaped by what it takes to turn out an acceptable product in 30, 60 or 90 days. Or to compete in a show, where the standard of judging may have nothing to do with good movement, balance, and certainly not with how much the horse is enjoying himself!
> 
> After all, "When I come to ride, it is MY time, and doing what I want is the horse's JOB!" *And darn it, I've been there, done that and said that!*


From a couple of days ago, on the over 50 thread:



bsms said:


> Had Bandit's best ride to date today. My wife rode Trooper for the first time since she took up riding again in June. I rode Bandit bitless, using a sidepull setup that I tried last spring and decided he wasn't ready for. But he did GREAT today - very relaxed, forward...did at least 98% of the ride on slack reins attached to a sidepull!
> 
> Trooper has become more nervous. We've been wondering if it was because he is losing sight in one eye (may or may not be happening) or if it was because my youngest daughter relied too much on letting him take charge. So my wife rode Trooper and made a point, if she thought his mind was wandering, of asking him for a short trot, or to detour around a cactus. And Trooper acted like a champ! Did everything, without hesitation or fuss.
> 
> And for the first time, Bandit followed behind Trooper part of the way without acting up. In fact, he seemed to think, "If he wants to take point, let him! I'll just chill back here..." His ears in this picture are listening to me fuss around with my camera:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> But we cut across the desert, went on trails, went down the wash, went past a ton of garbage cans, went past barking dogs...no problem! I pointed Bandit at the steepest section (only about 10 feet high, just in case) that I've tried him on, and he never hesitated. *Zipped up, and Troop zipped up behind him with my wife. Bitless, slack reins...zip, zip, zip!*
> 
> I think I'm finally going to take measurements and have a leather sidepull made for him! I think we're going to have three excellent trail horses...


I haven't ordered the leather sidepull yet. The one I would like is now pushing $200, so I may wrap the nosepiece of the parachord sidepull with bandages to reduce the abrasion while seeing how Bandit responds. But I can see where he might do very well in a sidepull. He isn't a bolter and isn't nearly as competitive with other horses now. It isn't that I dislike bits. I actually like curb bits. But Bandit has a very short lip line. Pulling the bit up high enough to avoid his teeth gives him that Joker-smile look, and may be creating tension. But I may need to experiment more before I commit to a $200 sidepull!

I'll finish with a couple of Ray Hunt quotes that seem to fit:

_ "Don't be afraid to expose your horse to something he hasn't quite been exposed to yet, but don't snow him under."
_ _
"Admire the horse for the good things he does and just kinda ignore the wrong things. First thing you know, the good things will get better and the bad things will get less."
_ _
"A lot of people say, 'Well, you can't show a horse down the road every day that way.' To me, that's the only way you can - or the only way I'd want to go with a horse."_​


----------



## bsms

And Tom Dorrance:_

"Some people will ride a horse as long as the horse lives and they will never get what I try to get just as early as I can, for a foundation. I don't mean that I'm trying to get everything completed, but to get enough there to where if the horse gets troubled he will come to me; or to where I can get him to come to me for security and cover. *Without that foundation I feel very insecure on a horse...*"

_Me too!


----------



## gottatrot

Great posts. 

Not sure if you have any leather nosebands around, but I made a leather sidepull for Amore by taking a leather bridle, shortening the cheek pieces and putting them around the noseband instead of a bit. Then I put metal rings also inside the cheekpieces so they pull on the noseband. The trick is that you need to get the sidepiece of the noseband inside the part of the bridle that holds the bit, so the bridle cheekpieces don't slide up and down. 
I am using a larger metal ring, but I'll probably switch it out for a smaller one because it has too much play.









I'm not sure if this only worked due to the particular bridle I have, but it might be worth experimenting with if you have any extra headstalls or nosebands.


----------



## Bondre

gottatrot said:


> Not sure if you have any leather nosebands around, but I made a leather sidepull for Amore by taking a leather bridle, shortening the cheek pieces and putting them around the noseband instead of a bit. Then I put metal rings also inside the cheekpieces so they pull on the noseband. The trick is that you need to get the sidepiece of the noseband inside the part of the bridle that holds the bit, so the bridle cheekpieces don't slide up and down.


This is a great idea! I'm tempted to do this myself as I'm also on the search for a reasonable sidepull for Macarena. I made a sidepull noseband to exchange for her crossover noseband, but currently I am short of a bridle so keeping my eye out for something I like. 

In the UK there's a very nice sidepull available called Transcend, excellent quality leather, but not really worthwhile for you guys with shipping, currency exchange etc.


----------



## gottatrot

Another option is to use a so-called "jumping hackamore" noseband on a regular bridle.








https://www.amazon.com/Tory-Leather-LEATHER-Jumping-Hackamore/dp/B00BSH5N4W/ref=pd_lpo_200_tr_img_3/161-2719654-2511839?ie=UTF8&refRID=QYBBB6SCA1G5RJB5KKVG


----------



## phantomhorse13

bsms said:


> I haven't ordered the leather sidepull yet. The one I would like is now pushing $200


If you don't have the parts you need for @gottatrot 's idea, you might want to look at picking up a synthetic one to see what he thinks, before spending $200.

I know a couple people that have this sidepull and have only good things to say about the quality. And you can always get it in brown or black so it looks like leather.


----------



## Hondo

I use a Cooks with scissor clips. It looks like I could just clip to the ring the crossover runs through and have a sidepull?


----------



## bsms

I've ordered a rope sidepull ($20) already, but think I try the synthetic one also. I like the idea of a jowl strap, and it is pretty much a synthetic version of the $180 one. The jumping hackamore looks interesting but I don't know about fit. Bandit looks to me like he has a big ole noggin, but the measurements put him at the small end of cob. Guess I've spent too much time around Arabians...if that is possible.

I tried him solo today bitless. I'm not sure if he was more nervous, or I was. I also tried using Mia's old one, but it slides way up on his head - as it did for her, too:








​ 
That was SOOOOO not the right solution for her back then!

Not optimum on Trooper back then either.










Bandit did well with it in the arena, but I don't think it would be a good choice for the desert or neighborhood.​


----------



## phantomhorse13

Hondo said:


> I use a Cooks with scissor clips. It looks like I could just clip to the ring the crossover runs through and have a sidepull?


That is certainly worth a try. You will just need to watch that using the rein doesn't make the whole bridle shift over, as that may cause the cheekpiece to hit his eye. 




bsms said:


> Bandit did well with it in the arena, but I don't think it would be a good choice for the desert or neighborhood.​


One step at a time. Start with it in the arena until you are both comfortable in it. Then you can try riding out in it with your bridle on over it. Two sets of reins are a handful to start with (though you can knot the ones attached to the bit and leave them on his neck), but then you will have a backup just in case the sidepull isn't enough. Ride that way until you are comfortable the sidepull is enough. That is how I transitioned ours from bits to the hackamores. It looked a bit funny the first few rides out, but I was concerned with safety not looks!


----------



## bsms

Since I said unkind things about this writer earlier, I'll include this quote from another thread about where I think he is correct. It is in response to a post Hondo made, discussing Dressage by Henry Wynmalen:



Hondo said:


> Today I recieved my copy of Dressage by Henry Wynmalen. That is the book Tom Dorrance did recommend to his students years later, as pointed out to me by bsms.
> 
> I was surprised that an old time cowboy like TD would recommend a book written for Dressage. If nothing else, I think I found the answer on page 29. Here is a partial quote. And I do believe it is part and partial to the thread topic.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> "Confidence is absolutely essential because without it the horse just cannot make a sufficient surrender of himself, mentally and physically, to learn and to absorb our teaching. Mental and physical processes are so intimately connected, that they cannot be separated.
> 
> Everyone understands that it is an essential object of our training to obtain control of the horse's voluntary actions. But it is less well understood that it is impossible to succeed in doing so with any degree of complete success, unless we gain control of his involuntary actions also. And that is much the more difficult task of the two.
> 
> Involuntary actions, or rather reactions, are called forth by the working of the horse's nervous system independently of his own free will................................."
> 
> 
> I had to stop reading at this point and think. I got chills. I'm still thinking. This passage is not about dressage or cutting, it's about a horse.





bsms said:


> Maybe it is my engineering background - I was trained in Biology, but spent my life flying jets and working with engineers - but I looked at that statement and thought it was nonsense. Saw it late last night and it bugged me.
> 
> But here is some additional context:
> .It is perfectly certain that animals of different species can understand each other quite well and can and do communicate amongst each other satisfactorily provided only that fear has no part in the proceedings; that there exists, in other words, a degree of confidence...They imply that we shall not be understood by the horse unless we possess ourselves, or acquire, the aptitude of talking to him by attitude and behavior; and even then we shall never succeed fully unless we do so in that calm and quietly determined manner whereby confidence is inspired." - page 29​.
> This is what I think Foxhunter is describing. I suspect Smilie would agree as well, particularly with a green horse. There is a confidence horses gain around someone who is firm but fair, whose reactions are proportional and justified by the circumstances. When horses understand you are formidable - someone who cannot be ignored lightly - yet also that you care about them and are truly on their side - they become safe.
> 
> It is what I cited much earlier in the thread, about "Electric fences don't chase horses", creating boundaries that are enforced, but letting the horse decide if he is going to challenge that boundary. Horses don't fear an electric fence. They honor the boundary, but they may graze right next to it. Like Foxhunter, I've chased a horse around the corral while the other two just wanted to stay clear. The others knew WHY the one was in trouble, and it didn't concern them.
> 
> Heck, I once watched Mia finish the job! It was almost like she was saying, "_Want to see how to discipline a herd member? Watch and learn._.." She spent 20 minutes or so finishing what I had started. Then she strolled over to me, put her head beside me and looked at me as if to say, "_Got it?_" That mare was SOOO wrong for me, yet so right for me! :???:
> 
> Much of traditional horse training is based on this. Tom Roberts:
> .I am going to ask you a question, and before you read on I would like you to answer it clearly – to yourself.
> 
> Question: “Why does a horse stop or go slower if you pull on the reins?” If you answer, “Because it hurts the mouth,” I am sorry to have to break the news to you – you have failed.
> 
> But no, I'll give you another chance: “Why do you jump up instantly if you sit on an upturned tack or drawing pin?”
> 
> If you answer again: “Because it hurts” - you really do need to read every word in this book!
> 
> The horse stops – and you jump up – not just because it hurts, but to stop it hurting. By no means the same thing.
> 
> And there isn't any doubt: if jumping up didn't stop the pain, you would try doing something else. So, too, eventually, does the horse. ​.
> You don't teach a horse through pain, and you don't teach him by making him fear you. But traditional approaches DO say you create a boundary, and give the horse responsibility for not crossing the boundary. Then the horse can have freedom, safety and contentment - by honoring the boundary the human set.
> 
> That may be using R-, but it is NOT using punishment. The difference is critical to the horse. Horses don't fear electric fences, and they don't fear someone who sets firm boundaries.
> 
> Here's some more context on the involuntary part of the quote, which bothered me until I saw the context:
> ."It follows that, since the horse cannot himself control such reactions, the trainer cannot do so either, at any rate, not directly. But the trainer can realize these reactions arise, involuntarily, under the influence of outside stimulants, such as fear and nervous excitement; it is an important, perhaps the most important element in the trainer's art not to create any such disturbing influences himself.
> 
> No one can avoid occasional upsets in a highly strung, high-couraged horse, under the impact of extraneous influences...But the talented rider shall be able to insure that no upsets or excitement are caused by his own conduct on the horse....the merit of the horse's calmness is in the confident and willing acceptance of his rider's requirements; there is no merit in calmness due to virtual "extinction" of the horse's liveliness and brilliance." - pages 29-30, underlining mine​.
> I think Tom Roberts made it easier for a newbie like myself to understand with "_This will profit you. This will profit you not._" But I'll admit I really wish I had read the above passage early on with Mia. As much reading as I do, it wasn't until a few years down the road, when I read James Fillis on how to handle a nervous horse that I found someone writing what I was learning - *if you try to punish a nervous horse for being nervous, you get a more nervous horse!
> 
> **Been there, done that, got the bruises!*​
> This is where I'm sure Wynmalen, Roberts, Fillis, Hunt and others would part way with Clinton Anderson's approach to spooking - that you make spooking "hard" by...well, by punishing the horse via making it spin hard back and forth for 3-5 minutes until the horse gives up.
> 
> Again, this does not imply rejecting R-. The act of the spook itself is punishment enough. The horse has already punished himself by spooking. All I need to do is restore confidence.
> 
> In my limited experience, horses don't enjoy getting scared. They do not enjoy spooking. It might be different with a bored horse in an arena, doing lap 567 under a student...but in trail riding, horse's don't enjoy the jolt to their nervous system caused by sudden panic. They WANT to calm down fast, and not do it again, unless the rider gets in the way. And while some people - not Smilie, BTW - find it presumptuous for a rider of 8 years to talk about having learned anything, one lesson that has been driven home to me is that as a trail rider, good riding normally consists of getting out of the horse's way.
> 
> Maybe an advanced rider can improve a horse. I'm not advanced, never will be, and feel no need to bite off more than I can chew. For many recreational riders, an attainable goal is to let the horse be under saddle as he would without a rider, except perhaps calmer and more confident. The horse is able to improve himself unless I interfere. In so many cases, it is my weight, my balance, my attitude, my desire that limits the horse. I wonder why the horse doesn't improve, and he wonders why I won't let him do better...
> 
> Morning rant off!


It only seems fair that on my journal, having said unkind things about the book, I balance it out.


----------



## Hondo

bsms said:


> Since I said unkind things about this writer earlier, I'll include this quote from another thread about where I think he is correct. It is in response to a post Hondo made, discussing Dressage by Henry Wynmalen:
> It only seems fair that on my journal, having said unkind things about the book, I balance it out.





bsms said:


> I think Tom Roberts made it easier for a newbie like myself to understand with "This will profit you. This will profit you not."


I finished reading Chapter 2, Horse and Man this morning. I was moved. Particularly by the passage you quoted above.

Working with the horse's involuntary actions seems to be very close or at least associated to the idea of "riding the horse's mind".

I think all newbies may be different also as I prefer Wynmalen over Roberts, but to be fair, I've only read quotes from Roberts that you quoted. Hello Amazon...........


----------



## bsms

Some stuff pulled from some other threads along with some extra detail. Two days ago:



bsms said:


> Well, just got back from a short ride with my wife and Bandit and Trooper. By your definition of body control, neither of us has body control of our horses. But we HAD a relaxing ride. Bandit got a good look at his first jackhammer. Did fine. I had shortened the stirrups 3 holes, trying something, so I stopped at the jackhammer and dropped them down a hole. He observed, then I mounted up and we walked away.
> 
> My wife and I are part of a very small church, so we're part of the 4 person "choir". Singing ability is not required in a church as small as ours. As we walked down the wash, Bandit keeping a close eye and getting a little claustrophobic, as he tends do, I guess I started singing the song we're going to sing next Sunday. I realized it when my wife joined in.
> 
> Any good Natural Horsemanship trainer will tell you studies of wild mustangs have NEVER found a case of mustangs singing to each other. Oh well. Our horses, as they do so often, took it in the spirit it was offered - 75 degrees, sunny, two horses and two riders strolling down a wash in southern Arizona, singing a gospel hymn somewhat out of tune. IOW, life is good.
> 
> Took a new place to climb out of the wash. Bad choice. When we got to the top, cactus everywhere. There was a trail about 300 yards ahead, but we took 10-15 minutes to weave our way, back and forth, hitting dead ends, asking (not demanding) our horses slip between cactus inches from their hooves or rumps, turning every few steps - and Bandit and Trooper did it like champs. No hesitation, no balking, just getting the job done. I've been told what we call neck reining isn't REAL neck reining, but our horses were content.
> 
> We didn't have what apparently is body control, just as we didn't apparently do genuine neck reining. But our horses stayed with us the whole ride. If I needed Bandit to push through dead brush - which he hates - he looked, accepted responsibility, and went. We may not have had what reputable clinicians would call body control, but we both felt safe and confident on two horses who were working with us every step of the way.
> 
> Folks need to decide how they like to ride and what works for them. If they love arena work, have fun! If they want body control first - well, not my horse, not my issue. Enjoy! My approach may be beneath most riders...but Bandit isn't their horse or their problem. The more I ride Bandit, the more I trust him. He's starting to have a lot of horse sense! We had fun together today - all four of us, out as a team.
> 
> And others are welcome to do what works for them and their horses.
> :cheers:​


I don't actually believe "And others are welcome to do what works for them and their horses." In fact, a lot of people define "what works for them and their horses" as anything that works for the rider, or even what the rider thinks will work for them - without any consideration of the horse. Using me for example, from a thread called "Most Aggressive":



bsms said:


> Well, I've whipped my mare hard with a 4' long leather whip made by folding over a split rein. The harder I laid in to her, the faster we went - backwards.
> 
> There is a long thread discussing how aggressive one might get here, primarily written from the "I own the horse" perspective:
> 
> http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/willing-compliance-aversive-reflex-727450/
> 
> The problem with "_Be as light as possible, but as firm as necessary_" is that many people believe they need to be "firm", when they really need to be more understanding or more inventive. As a trend, the longer I ride, the less aggressive I need to be - 8+ years now, so it sure isn't as if I was born on a horse. I understand there is also the other extreme, where the rider believes Ol' Littlebitofhell just needs more pampering.
> 
> But here is a very recent example, for me, from yesterday:
> 
> I was trying two new things with my horse - a bitless bridle (rope sidepull) and a shorter stirrup length for me. As we started a canter, he started bucking. Not real hard. I pulled his head up, he stopped bucking, and we continued.
> 
> Then it happened again. Same response from me.
> 
> Then we did 6 short canters - my arena is more like a round pen than an arena - and all went fine. I fussed over him a bit, then put him in the corral.
> 
> Later in the evening, I realized both bucking spurts took place when I asked him to accelerate just as we turned directly into the setting Arizona sun, probably blinding him. So he defended himself. He did it in a way I consider improper communication, so he was wrong. But I was setting him up for failure, so I was wrong too.
> 
> Had I shown better judgment, he probably would not have bucked at all. I'm glad I didn't punish him for bucking, apart from getting his head up. I did find out that this particular sidepull worked fine when I needed to get his head up, and that the shorter leg didn't bother me when he hops. But I set him up to fail when a better horseman would have avoided the issue. IMHO. Firm only became necessary when I acted stupidly.


I had adjusted my stirrup up to the shortest position I had tried the other day. That might work OK if I get used to it. It was not a problem when he started hopping. 

*But too often, we set the horse up for failure, blame him for that failure, then punish him for failing, and then wonder why we don't have an eager, willing horse!*​
And I'm not the only one who has done it! 

Bandit in his sidepull. Needed a little more adjusting, which I did after taking the picture. I don't really like the knots on the bridge of the nose. I've ordered another (they run about $20) without the knots. Notice his lip line ends almost even with his nostril. Another inch, or even another half inch, would allow me to keep the bit away from his teeth without pulling his lips:








​ 
I tried the biothane bitless, but it is not going to work. It was built different from what was shown on the website, and the noseband is held at an angle across the face, so that only the rear edge of the noseband is contacting the face. I've emailed the retailer about returning it. It also was smaller than I expected. I had it on the very last hole with Bandit. That wouldn't be too bad because Bandit has the largest noggin of my three and I suspect Cowboy and Trooper could both trail ride fine bitless. But not with the noseband sticking up 30 degrees toward the front...


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## Hondo

What brand was the biothane bitless?


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## bsms

No riding today.

Saturday afternoon, our Australian Shepherd/something mongrel was off his feed. That isn't unusual, since he will eat odd things and then be sick a few days. Saturday night, he wasn't interested in playing with the grandkids. More unusual, but if his tummy is sick...

By Monday afternoon, he was having trouble moving. Last night, we thought he might die. My wife claims she doesn't care about dogs, but she spent the night on a pad sleeping next to Rusty. This morning, he was very sick. Got him to the vet. Diagnosis: cancer, lots of it, to the point the internal growths were interfering with his heart and lungs. Inoperable. Unlikely to live more than a few days, and that with pain.

It's the worst part about owning a dog. 

We have enough land to bury him here. So now we're down to two.

Rusty & Jack the Slipper on Jack's first night in Arizona. Rusty was 3 months older. Later, Jack spent his first night here in a crate. Rusty spent the night pressed against the gate of the crate.








​ 
About a year ago, three dogs looking for treats.










We always joked his real breed was Australian Love Dog. He wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer, but you never could question his heart...​


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## Alhefner

Sorry that you had to put down a loved companion.


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## egrogan

Awwww, sorry to hear that. This will sound like a silly comparison to a lot of people, but this Saturday we lost one of our pet chickens. She had become seriously anemic and laid down in a corner dozing off in the morning, and never woke up. She was the flock leader and the rest were sitting guard around her until I took her away. They're still not quite sure what to do without her-joked with my husband we've got no leaders left in the flock since we lost all our older ladies to the perils of chicken old age this summer.

Feathered or furry, it hurts to lose an animal you care about!


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## Hondo

My last dog hurt as bad or worse than any human has when he was gone. Condolences.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I never know what to say when someone loses someone they care about. If it makes you feel any better, we put down our lab this year. He had cancer and they told us the pain could be managed. They were wrong. I wish we had put him down earlier. You did right by him....


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## gottatrot

Very sad, so hard to lose a great friend.


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## bsms

The vet was uncommonly kind about it. I've had vets who were out & out nasty. But this one, hearing we had horses and enough property to bury our dog, said she had recently put down her own horse after over 30 years together. _'When you've shared your life._..'

She understood. And it helps to have friends here who also understand. Thanks.


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## elle1959

I'm so sorry for your loss  Dogs are so special. There's nothing like the love they give. May Rusty Romp In Paradise.


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## tinyliny

at least you saved him from a single further day of pain. 

so sorry. he looks like a super nice dog. just the kind I'd like to own.


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## bsms

Today's ride was a bad ride, but in a good way.

Bandit is very slender, and I've always had to pad up Mia's saddle. I've used the front half of a Wintec foam pad, which is very dense and also grippy. It doesn't slide around under the saddle like the felt pads they sell. But Bandit is filling out, at 8. He used to use his front left leg crooked, which crowded in that shoulder. Since going barefoot, and time, and a good farrier, his chest has started getting wider. So today I tried him without the extra padding.

I was also trying a different bit, just a single joint D-ring. I've ordered yet another as I get more disgruntled trying to find a good bitless option, but plan on using this one until the new one arrives. The new one should stay perpendicular to his tongue:








​ 
He was also wound up today. We did a very short ride out of the arena and he trotted most of it on alert. When we got back, we did canter after canter and trot after trot - most of it initiated by Bandit. He was fussing with his head, and I stopped a bunch of times to try adjusting the bit at different lengths. In the end, what had him calmest was also the loosest setting. Loose enough it would bang his teeth, except Bandit was holding the bit himself with his tongue.

While he was calmer, he was still pretty...well, I call it loosey-doosey. Just squirming around. I dismounted and tried to figure things out again and again. Then, finally, I checked the cinch. Without the foam pad, and having deliberately tried to leave the cinch a little loose - well, I could stick my hand in perpendicular to his side, no problem! That is a lot looser than normal - yet I had mounted and dismounted a bunch of times and not noticed anything.

I tightened it up some, adjusting the nylon latigo I use on both sides. We then did a couple of decent canters and nice, flowing trots. My arena is so small that we do these in a 50 foot diameter circle, mostly, so the constant turning is tough on us both. We also did a couple of counter-canters because Bandit doesn't take the correct lead going to the right. But we don't DO circles in the real world, and we never canter more than 300 yards or so due to rocks. So I don't worry much about leads.

In any case, once I tightened things up - not super tight but not sloppy - and with the bit adjusted pretty loose and with him holding it himself, he relaxed and gave a good faith effort at all we did.

So we stopped. End of Lesson. Not the same as ending on a good note. But Bandit had been talking to me the entire time, and I finally figured it out. And then he relaxed, and we were happy, and we were working as a team. End of lesson. But he never bucked, possibly because I was trying all the time. He didn't need to shout, "_*Can you hear me now?!*_" He knew I was listening, just confused. And like a good horse trainer, he rewarded the try while still getting me to seek the right answer. And when the right answer came, he removed the pressure. He teaches me the way I teach him, and we both have come to assume good will on the part of the other.

And I really like a horse who feels free to talk to me when something isn't just right. We did quite a bit with a loose saddle, and I didn't feel the saddle going anywhere, but it wasn't "right" for Bandit. And he told me, as best he could.

Yet how many people would have looked at him fussing and punished him for not focusing, or not trying? How many will assume the worst, and then complain when they get it?! People knock green + green, and neither Bandit nor I qualify as green. Not any more. But while a green rider with good intentions can create bad habits, *I sometimes think it takes a pro to REALLY screw a horse up!*

-------------------------------------

On a slightly different note, I posted this video for another member recently. I also re-watched it, and realized I had gotten lazy. I was once again mounting up perpendicular to my horse, one hand on the cantle, rather than mounting up in a diagonal direction. So today, I once again tried hard to mount up in the way @*DanielDauphin* teaches - and yup! It works well. Did before, and still does. Don't know if it works that way in an English saddle, but it really does help to think about moving FORWARD and over, rather than just over:






He has a bunch of very good videos. However, I DO start facing backwards. I need to jump pretty good to get my foot into the stirrup. By standing next to his shoulder facing back, my left leg is close to him and close to the stirrup, and I can keep a hand on Bandit for balance. Then I twist around. It sucks trying to ride when one has no athletic ability!

PS - Rusty spent much of his time with my youngest daughter. I hadn't really expected to miss him so much. But now that he isn't here, I realize I did spend a lot of time with him and he with me! Having the same number of dogs as I have petting hands is good in a way, but things seems awful empty without our 100 lb Aussie Mongrel.


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## gottatrot

I don't understand how people can ride with loose cinches. The theory makes sense to me, that the horse can breathe better. But after reading the studies about over tightening and how it affects horses, I don't think I could physically get a cinch that tight. We are putting the cinch over the rib cage, so it's not like a belt compressing in on soft organs. 

As I've said, I've ridden a horse quite a ways without realizing I didn't have the cinch attached on one side. But under normal riding conditions, my saddles that fit very well will move back and forth if the cinch is too loose, and this annoys the horses and irritates their skin. If I ever take a saddle off and the hairs are ruffled up, I've noticed the skin will be tender there for several days. 

Amore is like Bandit; if something is wrong, it is just wrong and it bothers her to no end. Halla will keep working fairly well unless something is quite off. Amore will buck if her girth is too thick and touches her legs. Once in awhile I forget but she reminds me if I put the wrong one on. She'll also buck if you put a pommel bag on the front of the saddle and it touches her neck. Anything wrong with the bridle or bit is just a disaster to her.

On the bright side, the horse double checks the tack for you so you can be sure everything is adjusted right. 

There's a sad feeling when you catch yourself unconsciously expecting a dog to be sitting in his usual places or think you spotted him going around a corner. We usually have one dog at a time so I have to get a new dog right away to fill that empty space. Young dogs are so much work, they are very distracting.


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## bsms

My daughter once was riding Trooper at a canter toward me. It looked odd, and then I realized the cinch had become so loose that it was hanging 6-8 inches below his chest, banging on his front legs. Did Trooper care? If he did, he hid it VERY well. I had to stop my daughter and tell her.

With Bandit, cantering and trotting in a circle no more than 60 feet across...his trot was fast and somewhat hollow. The truth is that is common. I think he trots based on racing with a very heavy guy (220+ in his socks, I'd guess) on his back. If I work him long enough, he'll settle in and give me a nice jog. But that is NOT his first response!

Cantering, he usually goes immediately to a fast canter, sometimes alternating with a gallop. In a 50' circle, my inside leg is gripping him and my outside leg is pushing out, trying to keep me from sliding sideways. A week ago, he gave me a slow, relaxed, gentle canter. I guess a "lope". I nearly fell off - from surprise!

But the longer I'm with him, the more I respect him and the more I trust him. I think that says something good about us both!

BTW - I don't like a loose cinch. But I think when you can mount from the ground with a loose cinch, and the saddle doesn't shift, then the saddle fit is probably above average. If you have to crank down on the cinch of a western saddle to keep the saddle stable for mounting, either your horse has a round back (none of mine do) or your saddle fit is suspect - or your mounting technique is bad.


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## Bondre

So sorry to hear about your dog, bsms. He was a handsome fellow. I'm glad his misery was short-lived as cancer can be a horrible long drawn-out torture. I'm like gottatrot - we just have one at a time. Our previous dog died of leishmaniasis which is a real nasty, it brings them down very slowly (on medication). He lasted a year after it was diagnosed, during which time he had a lot of good periods, but you get to the point when the medication does as much damage as the parasite. 

Re: girths. I can't ride with a loose girth since Macarena has such a round back that I would never be able to get on her without tightening it. And even so I can't mount from the ground our the saddle goes sideways. I like to be able to slide four fingers between girth and horse (but not very easily). Interesting that Bandit was so clearly complaining about the girth. That's a great horse you've got; he makes his point in a friendly and acceptable fashion. I guess perhaps if you didn't listen he would resort to more extreme manoeuvres! But since you are listening and aware of his state of mind, things never get that far.


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## bsms

English saddles puzzle me. Why a smooth leather bottom? The two I owned and used with Mia were slick as snot on a doorknob. The CC saddle was the worst, because it also had a narrow channel and just kind of perched on top of her, ready to slide sideways - and Mia had good withers and an A-frame back. Add a smooth cotton cloth underneath, and I was never able to mount from the ground - no matter how tight I got the girth!

My Aussie saddle is easier. The channel is wider and it has coarse cloth bottoms - something to grip. I could and did mount from the ground using it, but it still really helped to have a mounting block (or hillside).

The western saddle has a lot more surface area, a wide & smooth channel and just doesn't slide the same way. I read what Rod Nikkel (a custom saddle tree maker) said about downhill horses yesterday. He said the saddle will tend to slide forward, and the only thing he found to counteract it was a very good fit and a lot of surface contact area.

Our Circle Y saddle, Abetta and my Bates:








​ 
I still wonder why they don't make an English saddle with the same fundamental shape, but room for 1/2" felt pad underneath AND a grippy surface of some sort. I suppose it wouldn't sell. But the Abetta doesn't have much more surface area than my CC saddle, yet it grips fine.

I really think an inventive person could make a modified version of the Abetta, with a flatter seat and English stirrups, and have a usable saddle for moderate jumping and various English sports. As it is, it only weighs 15 lbs, so...without a horn, maybe with an interchangeable gullet, a much flatter cantle, English stirrup bars...I'm thinking a 12 lbs saddle, good grip for the horse and rider (Cordura), and it would still sell for about $400. Ours is about 5 years old and looks like it has never been used...

And I'd love to see the faces of the judges, when someone rode into the show ring, with a pink and purple English Cordura saddle, maybe with a NZ wool pad underneath, kind of like what I used on Mia:










Maybe like this, only with no horn, no cantle and English stirrups:​ 







​
I have this vision of tea spewing across the arena...:mrgreen:


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## Bondre

Well, in that photo of Mia you've already got quite a mix of tack what with the Western bridle, the English saddle, the NZ wool pad (gorgeous), and the stirrups - what are the stirrups?? - so I think any orthodox judge would spew their tea at the sight of her.... despite her dazzling beauty. 

I think that saddle you've just designed could be a seller. Saddlery is advancing rapidly with modern materials - though I guess the die-hards would scoff at your idea - but it combines practicality and elegance at a reasonable price. Maybe you could start a cottage saddlery industry? Not entirely tongue in cheek. With your engineering background, your common sense and your ever willingness to challenge tradition and established views (when they are clearly wrong or could be improved on) then you might just triumph with a new concept of hybrid saddles.


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## LlamaPacker

Loved your commonsense advice, bsms, about going with what I've got for the 4H program, so thought would come take a look at your journal and see what else I can learn. Great to have lots of pictures to demonstrate things, such as those saddles, and find out why things are done as they are. Thanks for the help you've given me and I'll keep coming back here to check on what's new. --LP


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> English saddles puzzle me. Why a smooth leather bottom?
> 
> I still wonder why they don't make an English saddle with the same fundamental shape, but room for 1/2" felt pad underneath AND a grippy surface of some sort. I suppose it wouldn't sell. But the Abetta doesn't have much more surface area than my CC saddle, yet it grips fine.


I'd like a very hybrid saddle too. I'm interested in these Tucker endurance saddles, although I've never seen one in real life:








The problem is that I like different things about english and western saddles. I like the wider weight bearing area and non-slippery underside of western. I like the smaller amount of leather around the tree of the english saddle. I don't like a horn, and I like the twist of the english seat. 

I'd like a visible channel so I can see everything is getting clearance, and stirrup bars you can adjust forward or back and use different styles of leathers. I like an english style girthing system, preferably one that self adjusts like the one on my treeless saddle:


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## bsms

I'd LOVE an overgirth system, with multiple slots so I could pick the rigging:










I guess it bothers some people, but I love being able to inspect the entire system that holds the saddle on. But I also like the twist of an English saddle, yet cannot have that on a western one. I like the closeness of an English saddle, but like the protection to the horse's back offered by a western one. I like a horn, but I tend to ride with one hand on the reins and one resting on the horn. That keeps my hands close together, but also helps if my horse spins hard. But since I don't rope, you could actually have a detachable horn - one that screws in, or you could screw in a leather covered plug instead.

And while there is much to like about fine leather, cordura nylon and ralide trees have a lot to offer as well. Oh well.


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## Hondo

bsms said:


> But since I don't rope, you could actually have a detachable horn - one that screws in, or you could screw in a leather covered plug instead.


Now THAT'S and idea! Instead of the saddle makers needing to make one with and one without, they could just make one saddle. That should drop the price also.

I used a hacksaw on the saddle horn on my Ralide when I installed it in my endurance saddle.


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## phantomhorse13

@bsms : I am so very sorry to hear about Rusty.. but thank you for making the best decision for your friend, not your own aching heart. They are never with us long enough, but the final act of love is taking their pain and making it our own. 




bsms said:


> English saddles puzzle me. Why a smooth leather bottom? Add a smooth cotton cloth underneath, and I was never able to mount from the ground - no matter how tight I got the girth!
> 
> I still wonder why they don't make an English saddle with the same fundamental shape, but room for 1/2" felt pad underneath AND a grippy surface of some sort.


They are out there if you know where to look!

[Excuse its filthy state, as I haven't cleaned it since the ride this weekend.]





























Our English saddles - Lovatt & Ricketts Rubicons - have wide channels and the panel exteriors are a thin, grippy wool felt. If they are flocked/fitted appropriately, there is no need for a super thick pad. [Notice the panels in this saddle are uneven in the rear view pic, as Phin is still asymmetric in his muscle development from left to right.] We use either plain cotton pads for training rides (because they are cheap and easily washed) or else wool for competitions. No issues with slippage under normal circumstances and we ride with what most people would consider loose girths.











The pads we use for competition are actually a super clever idea (though being still under patent they are not a cheap clever idea :icon_rolleyes. They have thin wool fleece under the flap of the saddle, a slightly thicker fleece under the panels, and the edges are fluffy to help prevent potential seam rubbing:











I don't use a 1/2" felt square pad because of the amount of heat that would hold, though they are super durable which is nice otherwise. In my experience, wool felt doesn't disperse heat nearly as well as wool fleece. I want a pad that covers as little extra space outside of the saddle as possible unless I am specifically heat training, in which case I use a square dressage pad:












As always, you need to find what works best for your own riding type and horse. One size definitely does not fit all!

My perfect saddle would have the Rubicon as the base, but instead of the current girth system (which uses 3 billets in the traditional english way), I would steal the Stonewall's V girth system, which allows for normal rigging, 7/8s rigging and center fire rigging without changing anything, only adjusting the straps with the buckles.


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## bsms

^^ That looks pretty close to what I think should be normal for riders.

I'd love to try something like that with Bandit someday. Today? We did a lot of sideways dancing today, and some "Let's turn around and run / Let's not" moments. Went out solo with Bandit for the first time in a month. My wife, bless her heart, decided to take our 100 lb White German Shepherd out and go look for us. Suffice it to say, Bandit was not happy when "found"! I spent some of the time using Mr Horn, and some of the time where I'd swear I could have dropped the reins and just held the bit in my hands.

There was a truck and trailer parked beside the road in a place no one had parked before. That was pretty scary. I eventually led him up to it, but he got fussy when I was about to mount up, so I started leading him. 30 feet past, turn around, walk by until 30 feet past, turn around...maybe two dozen times, until he relaxed as I mounted up.

He was still on edge, and we went into the desert on a dirt road we use all the time. Did some detours off trail to calm him. Was starting to make progress when someone in pink (my wife) with an enormous white horse killing dog (Sam) came walking toward us. The wind didn't carry smell or sound to us, so all he had was sight. And Bandit freaked.

So we spent time dancing and twisting. Tried turning him 180. He wanted to run. So we didn't. More fussing. More turning and dancing. He finally WALKED away until I found a spot off to the side where he felt safe enough that I felt safe enough to dismount. Led him over until he realized the pink monster was my wife, and the white one a dog he's seen...oh...1,000 times. So then he nibbled a weed and tried to act nonchalant. 

I mounted up, and my wife asked if she should follow us. I stifled the urge to say over 50% of the many cuss words I know, and finally gasped out, "_That won't be necessary!_" I would tell my Baptist preacher how proud he should be of my restraint, but he's kind of touchy about just how many cuss words I know, and how well I can string them together...

I will say that when we came back, Bandit walked past the truck and trailer without any extra urging. He didn't like it, but he stayed on the paved road and never slowed. Didn't speed up, either.

My avatar was taken passing a yard where a 100 lb dog almost always barks at us. It was empty going out. Coming back, the dog came racing out to the fence line from behind us. Bandit's back jolted, then he realized it was just "Faith" (the dog's name). Then he sighed. When we got home, he just looked at me as if to say, "_I had a really rough day. Can't I go into the corral and hide?_" 

I guess in some ways it was good, but it was not the sort of ride that I'll be eager to repeat. My shoulders and back feel like I've been mugged. But I guess we survived death again, and if we do it long enough, Bandit may conclude it is not as dangerous as he thinks. Then again, too many days like today may drive him in the opposite direction.

On another thread, a person asks about riding levels - beginner, intermediate and advanced. I guess for today, my riding level was "survived". Stayed on when I wanted to, got off when I wanted to, got out and got back. I think I could probably have bitten Bandit between the ears a couple of times, had I thought of it. At one point, I'd swear I had no more than 12 inches of rein in each hand - don't know why I bought 10' reins. Heck, 3 foot reins would have worked today!

And I think Bandit will always be like that. Later, I went out to feed them, clean the corral, water, etc. After I gave them food, Bandit left his food and went to the north side of the corral to stare at something. I have no idea what. He was still staring, full alert, when I left 30 minutes later. A horse who leaves his food to others and stares for 30+ minutes straight isn't likely to turn into Mr Steady Eddie. Not soon.

Oh well. If I wanted Mr Steady Eddie, I guess I own the wrong horse.

I know this marks me as a lowly rider, but on some days, my goals don't go farther than "_Stay on and don't give up!_" I must suck at riding, because I don't know where people get the idea that keeping the horse between you and the ground is easy...


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## gottatrot

phantomhorse13 said:


> Our English saddles - Lovatt & Ricketts Rubicons - have wide channels and the panel exteriors are a thin, grippy wool felt. If they are flocked/fitted appropriately, there is no need for a super thick pad.


OK, now I'm going to have to get a Rubicon. I have an Ellipse that I ride in all the time, and I've had an Elan (both Lovatt and Ricketts) which I sold recently because it didn't quite fit. Nicest saddles I've owned. 
But I'd like that better girthing system too.


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## phantomhorse13

bsms said:


> Led him over until he realized the pink monster was my wife, and the white one a dog he's seen...oh...1,000 times. So then he nibbled a weed and tried to act nonchalant.


OMG that is _such_ an ayrab thing!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: I can't even count the number of times ours have done that exactly.. and look at you like you are the crazy one.





bsms said:


> I guess in some ways it was good, but it was not the sort of ride that I'll be eager to repeat. My shoulders and back feel like I've been mugged. But I guess we survived death again, and if we do it long enough, Bandit may conclude it is not as dangerous as he thinks.
> 
> I know this marks me as a lowly rider, but on some days, my goals don't go farther than "_Stay on and don't give up!_" I must suck at riding, because I don't know where people get the idea that keeping the horse between you and the ground is easy...


Forgive me for chuckling through so much of your post (especially the part about the cursing), but it strikes such a chord! But as miserable as the ride was, I still think it counts as a success.

You are only a lowly rider because you *gasp* got off. The more advanced maneuver would have been to stay on board until the horse assisted you in dismounting. :falloff:

And personally, I think anybody who says riding is easy (or that dismounting is bad :icon_rolleyes has not ridden enough horses enough places.


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## Alhefner

bsms said:


> I spent some of the time using Mr Horn, and some of the time where I'd swear I could have dropped the reins and just held the bit in my hands.


_I love Mr. Horn!
_


bsms said:


> There was a truck and trailer parked beside the road in a place no one had parked before. That was pretty scary.


Yep. ANYTHING new or in an even SLIGHTLY different place gets Barney very snorty too.


bsms said:


> Led him over until he realized the pink monster was my wife, and the white one a dog he's seen...oh...1,000 times. So then he nibbled a weed and tried to act nonchalant.


He was puttin ya on the whole time...



bsms said:


> I would tell my Baptist preacher how proud he should be of my restraint, but he's kind of touchy about just how many cuss words I know, and how well I can string them together...


Sounds like military training...



bsms said:


> I guess for today, my riding level was "survived". Stayed on when I wanted to, got off when I wanted to, got out and got back.


I'm pretty happy with that level!


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## tinyliny

what a good ride! when you come home with your sense of humor intact, it's a good ride. well done on staying with a scared horse and helping him out.


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> So then he nibbled a weed and tried to act nonchalant....


So funny...Amore never is ashamed of over reacting but Halla pretends like she didn't spook. She tries to look extra casual or extra tough after spooking. If she spooks and then another horse spooks, following her lead, she looks at them like "Oh, _please_." As if they were scared but she wasn't. 


bsms said:


> At one point, I'd swear I had no more than 12 inches of rein in each hand - don't know why I bought 10' reins. Heck, 3 foot reins would have worked today!


Such an entertaining post, hilarious. I bought some endurance reins that have a nice, grippy woven material almost all the way to the end. The problem was that I often found myself trying to hold onto the slippery, colorful part near the bit rather than the grippy part! I was thinking, whoever made these reins did not ride Arabs.



bsms said:


> I guess for today, my riding level was "survived".


That's what I think...ask what someone's riding level is _after_ the ride. It certainly can differ from day to day. But some days my riding level is "survived," or "still alive" too. :wink:
Some days it's "What happened? Something happened." That's what I said on a recent video I made when the horses spooked. I think that's a common thing for my riding "What happened?"


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

My daughter and I were riding up the hill through the woods from the pasture to the house and the neighbor boy was out on their back deck beating a rug against the railing. Oliver stopped, tensed raised his head and I knew it was go time. 

"Hey C- say something!"

"Huh?"

"Say something, Oliver thinks you are the rug monster! Tell him you are human!"

"Oh! Okay, hey there Mrs. H-, Hey Oliver."

Oliver calmed down immediately. I did the same thing with the first bike monster he saw, the riding lawnmower and the jogger and the lady with the baby stroller...They seem to recognize strange implements with humans attached and in control as safe, at least mine do?


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## phantomhorse13

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> "Say something, Oliver thinks you are the rug monster! Tell him you are human!"
> 
> "Oh! Okay, hey there Mrs. H-, Hey Oliver."
> 
> Oliver calmed down immediately. I did the same thing with the first bike monster he saw, the riding lawnmower and the jogger and the lady with the baby stroller...They seem to recognize strange implements with humans attached and in control as safe, at least mine do?


Ours do as well. I do that with ANY strange thing a human is doing that the horses eyeball like monsters.

Back where I used to board my mare, the local roads were very popular with road bikers come spring. While my mare didn't have issue with bikes, I hated when one suddenly whooshed past and surprised me.. so I started asking any bikers I saw to speak to my horse so she wouldn't think they were a monster. While I got some strange looks at first, all complied. Soon any biker around was calling out to us (some by name we saw them so much). When I happened to go out with my BO, who was also the president of the local trail club, we saw several sets of bikes, all of whom talked to us. After a set passed us that we knew by name, my BO turned around to stare open-mouthed at me and exclaimed, "YOU are why the bikers are suddenly talking to us!"

Apparently, it was all the talk among the trail riding club that the bikers were suddenly vocally making themselves known. People were so happy to have less spooking horses, but nobody could understand what had changed. I found it amazing that these people had been riding that area for years and none of the riders had ever thought to educate the bikers!!

Quiet and shy, I am not. ;-)


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## bsms

Yes, voice is important. Yesterday, though, the breeze was blowing toward the two vicious monsters. My wife realized what was happening - it was pretty obvious, actually - and started talking. I didn't hear her, although Bandit might have.

I've explained to most of my neighbors that a _"Hi! How's the ride going?_" can be the difference between a relaxed horse wanting to see what they are doing in their yard, and a scared horse who could injure himself (and me) trying to get away. We're the only people in the immediate neighborhood who own horses, but a lot of my neighbors say they enjoy watching them.

I also regularly hear, "_Your horses are so intense about things. Why don't they just stand around in their corral or stroll by, like most horses?_" That then gets us talking about Arabians, hot blood versus cold blood, and what a person likes in a horse.

We have a neighbor who only stays here a few months each year. He was born and bred in Mexico, although he has lived most of his life here. He sold his last horse (in a different state) last year. He told me there are few things better in life than riding a "dancing stallion". I told him I did more dancing on my gelding than I really wanted. "Give yourself another 10 years...", he said.

Confession: When I'm 68, I don't REALLY think I'll want to own a stallion who dances. Bandit should be 18 by that time. And knowing him...

A few months after we got our horses, I watched a lady riding an Arabian in an arena. The mare was full of ****, so to speak. The rider handled her fine, but the mare was obviously pretty challenging. Being a newbie, I asked her afterward how old a horse got before they settled down. "_Well,_" she replied, "_I've owned this mare from a foal, and she's 28 now. *Leave me a number and I'll give you a call when she 'settles'!*_"

I slunk away. If scorn could kill, I'd have been blasted into eternity.

At sunset yesterday, my wife offered to help me clean the corral. We used a wheelbarrow. As we got close to finishing, Bandit strolled over, casual like. My wife said, "_He's not going to..._" I said, "_Bandit don't you dare!_"

He dared. Tipped the wheelbarrow over, as Mia had done so many times before. I suppose I should have gotten mad or something. But my wife started laughing. I told Bandit, "_If you are working on your 'Just Like Mia' merit badge, consider it awarded!_" Then I scratched his neck, while he looked enormously pleased with himself and my wife continued laughing.

But realistically, a horse who leaves his hay and spends over 30 minutes on high alert, staring at nothing (that I could see), while his corral mates never even raise their heads or flick an ear, and while his owner is cleaning the corral - a horse like that will never be Mr Calm. He will gradually get used to more things, but he'll always retain the option of going on high alert. 

And while it sometimes helps to let him take a look, as he proved yesterday in the corral, he can look for over 30 minutes without moving a hoof, concerned about something I can't see. And we were upwind of whatever it was, so I don't think he was smelling or hearing much, either. It is just who he is. As the trainer who worked with Trooper and Lilly and Mia put it, "_Sometimes you have to love who they are, not who they will never be!_"

I've been experimenting with shorter stirrups. I strongly suspect a little shorter stirrup would make it easier for me to get a better trot or canter out of him. But when he gets squirrelly, I like to have my leg almost straight, maybe full straight with heels down and slightly ahead of my center of gravity. I'm not saying that is optimum. It is just something that has worked for me, and now is a habit pattern. If something starts to go wrong, that is what my body does without my thinking.

I started by reading Littauer. I learned the forward seat first. I love it. In the arena, I love the way it feels when I'm a little out of the saddle, balanced over my stirrups, with my horse moving very freely underneath! But outside the arena...for that environment, I think I'll drop my stirrups down to one hole shorter than what I used with Mia. That will be short enough.

The good news is that Bandit, unlike Mia, seems to stay aware of his surrounding environment, and he isn't likely to take us into cactus, big rocks, off of drops, etc. He stays aware enough to use what ground it is safe to use, which makes him a MUCH safer horse to ride in the desert than Mia. But when he turned into a squirrel yesterday, my staying on him seemed a lot more important to me than how well I could float above him...and I can imagine Bandit, 20 years from now, acting like he did yesterday. "_*Leave me a number and I'll give you a call when he 'settles'!*_"

Welcome to my world! Until I can learn to float above a horse without a horse, I'd better plan on sticking to the horse. If that makes more work for him - well, exercise is good! Maybe it will help him settle. Then again, maybe it will just make him fit when he is unsettled...:rofl:


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## egrogan

Yep, Isabel is 22, and she can still crowhop and give me hell when she wants to. Luckily, most days she agrees to go along for the ride.

I too have found that having people talk to her when we approach makes a world of difference. We've had successful encounters with hunters, bikers, motorcycles, and men in lawn chairs on a lunch break by just simply asking them to identify themselves as humans as we went by.


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## bsms

I also find that people LIKE helping the horse. Sometimes an ATVer will come over and touch a horse for the first time in their life. And it helps to have neighbors who like horses and who want to help them feel better!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Since Lance Armstrong started living near here biking has become big thing. We have a tongue in cheek phrase "Militant Zombie Bikers". 

MZB's are often ill tempered and think that both the roads and the trails belong to them and seem to get ticked off when they have yield to a horse (or a truck/car). Many don't and are downright dangerous about it. It has set up an adversarial situation between the mountain bikers and the equestrians (far too many car v bike accidents here too but that is a different topic). 

Maybe we need to set up an organization that educates biking clubs as to how to share the trails with horses.


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## carshon

BSMS we had a similar experience a couple of weeks ago. My mare was having an off day - and we met a rider who had dismounted and was squatting near the trail by her horse. Simply Hair Rising! About 1/4 mile up the trail we spotted a GeoCacher hiding in the brush - well worth the energy to spin 180 degrees and try to knock my daughters horse down. And further down the trail we met 2 hikers with walking sticks. - simply too much for a black mare having a bad day! Had to ask the hikers to PLEASE just stop and talk to my bug eyed mare so that she understood that they were just people. Once she figured that out she quickly frisked them for treats and upon finding none made her way down the trail. 
After the hikers the model airplanes flying over head just simply became a sport for her to shy at anything she thought was making that terrible buzzing noise.

My inner thighs were screaming the next day!


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## bsms

This is a response to a post ( http://www.horseforum.com/member-journals/tiny-things-tiny-journal-713826/page5/#post9532666 ) on tinyliny's journal. As it got longer, and possibly more controversial, I decided to post it here. I didn't want to disrupt her thread, and it was turning into a rant:

I've argued the founding principle of horsemanship is simply:

*The horse is alive!*​ 
That means it has thoughts, feelings, needs, desires. And they think and feel in a way quite different than what is too often taught. That is why I found that old quote from a cavalryman in the 1860s so helpful. So many people, including many life long riders on HF, told me what a very experienced rider on HF wrote a couple of weeks ago - that the only thing horses care about is eating. VS Littauer, in 1935, after years in the Russian Cavalry and becoming a jumping instructor, wrote the same thing - that no horse enjoys being ridden, and that all any horse wants to do is be lazy, eating food in the company of other horses. It wasn't until 20 years later, in the 50s, that he mentioned going out on a relaxing morning ride with his horse, both of them enjoying being out. 

It is reflected in the often taught idea that if a horse is scared, you should not dismount. Why? Because by dismounting, you "reward the horse". It is reflected in the often made statement, "That horse has your number!" It is a bit contradictory, actually. All horses care about is food, yet they also spend their nights plotting ways to dominate their riders and take control of the world the next day!

But the cavalryman affirmed what I was starting to suspect: 
."...Horses don't like to be ennuye, and will rather stick at home than go out to be bored; they like amusement, variety, and society: give them their share of these, but never in a pedantic way, and avoid getting into a groove of any kind, either as to time or place, especially with young animals."​.
"*they like amusement, variety, and society*" - They are alive!

I'm not picking on dressage. This comes from the USDF, but a similar approach to riding can be found in many show disciplines, and is often found in basic riding instruction:
.In a correctly executed turn or circle the horse’s inside hind leg carries more weight than the outside one. Before every turn or circle the rider should prepare the horse with a half halt and transfer his weight a little to the inside seat bone, in the direction of the movement.

The horse should then be flexed in the same direction. The inside rein should guide the horse into the turn, the rider’s inside leg, close to the girth, causing the horse’s inside hind leg to reach further forward. The outside rein should yield just enough to allow the horse to flex to the inside, while at the same time it restrains the horse from falling out over the outside shoulder. The outside leg should control the quarters.

When the horse’s forehand is guided from the straight line into the direction of the turn, the influence of the inside rein is decreased again. The rider should ‘straighten’ the horse with the outside rein, keep the horse exactly on the line of the circle. (‘Straight’ on the circle means making sure that the hind feet follow in the tracks of the forefeet, and that the horse is bent from head to tail according to the curvature of the line.)

The correct distribution of the rider’s weight is most important. In transferring his weight to the inside seat bone he should push the inside hip forward with a deep knee. This will also prevent him from collapsing his inside hip and slipping the seat to the outside. At the same time he should make sure not to leave the outside shoulder behind.

http://www.usdf.org/edudocs/training/basicexercises.pdf​.

Notice the RIDER is performing a turn on a horse. The RIDER. But no rider ever performs a turn! The horse turns. Sometimes because we ask him to, and sometimes because he wants to, and sometimes the two meet and we decide to turn together. 

You never turn the horse. You can tell the horse "Turn or else!" - as I did on Bandit the other day, when his attention suddenly leaped a few hundred yards ahead and focused on my wife and our white German Shepherd - in a place where Bandit could not imagine them existing. Once in a while, "...or else!" is needed for safety.

But with a few rare exceptions, we ask or command a horse to turn. Maybe to turn in a certain way. Having been bred for many years for docility, many horses will do so without resentment. Most of the time.

When one studies the horse's motion, be it the back, or the footfalls used in a turn or even in a trot or canter, it becomes obvious we don't even know HOW the horse moves and turns! It took the invention of high speed cameras to show a horse can trot with a moment of suspension. There are still people who teach the horse's back rounds up, forming an arch, when collected - although there is now very good data showing that never happens. We see a horse moving his hind legs deep underneath him, and think he is transferring weight to his rear - not understanding that ALL he is doing is moving his feet further forward than makes sense in order to make his rider leave him alone.

In riding lessons and shows, it is ultimately all about the rider. Even when the horse is supposedly being judged, the horse is being judged on moving in a way that pleases humans - to include rollkur, or the WP peanut rolling! Or a 2 or 3 year old horse is pushed to spin repeatedly, fast, with a heavy weight on his back, without regard to how that affects his body. I've yet to see a horse, on his own, spin around again and again. I've seen a horse on its own slide while stopping, but I'm pretty sure it was accidental.

Jean Luc Cornille argues that false practices tend to dominate shows, that the standards to which a horse is expected to perform ignore the root meaning of what the dressage masters were trying to do. It arguably takes a genius to feel with a precision that allows horses to correctly execute - biomechanically correctly execute - training maneuvers meant to build up the horse's body, but that done incorrectly tear it down.

Somewhere on his website ( Gestures verses Energy ), he argues that a horse faced with this lack of genius in his rider responds in a way that increases effort, pain and likelyhood of injury, effectively pretending to do X. And the buffoon on his back, and the buffoon in the judge's stand - my description, not his - is happy, because they are trying to do the very difficult without the understanding and feel required to do it right!

That is why I reject the idea of a rider performing a turn on the horse. I think true horsemanship, at least for those of use who are not geniuses, consist of presenting the horse with graduated challenges, and letting the horse figure out how to perform them. 

How do I turn a horse? I ask him. Sometimes with a look, and sometimes with moving the reins sideways a little further up his neck than where they normally rest. And my horse then takes care of the turn. That will never win him an award in reining, or WP, or dressage. But it recognizes that the horse is alive!

A quote from Ray Hunt then applies:

"There's a purpose and a meaning behind each thing you ask the horse to do."​ 
A horse will do a lot just to please his rider. I often ride Bandit in our little arena. But ideally, I want the context to teach the horse. A horse turning back and forth between cactus (or trees, or shrubs, or rocks, or following a path that does so) understands what we ask because it makes sense to him. Like a word we don't know can have its meaning deduced from the surrounding context, the horse learns that we ask him to do things that make sense because they DO make sense! And then the horse learns that the monkey on his back is smart, and worth listening to!

And when the horse does stuff because it makes sense to him, he also figures out how to do so most efficiently. Maybe not TRULY the MOST efficiently. Jean Luc Cornille argues a horse who has learned how to do X adequately will stay at that level by habit - just as humans do.

But since I do not understand my horse's motion, because I am NOT a genius and refuse to pretend otherwise, I think the best way to improve the horse's motion is then to offer increasing levels of difficulty, until the horse needs to break his habit pattern in order to achieve the goal. And at some point, when a horse does what you would like him to do adequately, safely and cheerfully - just how much "improvement" do we need?

Long rant, which is why I moved it here. Some people would tell me that if I don't rebalance my horse with a half-halt regularly, even constantly, that means I suck at riding. I honestly feel the opposite. If someone is trying to micromanage their horse so intently, and gives the horse so little freedom to explore that the horse NEEDS to be rebalanced by a human before a turn - then THAT rider sucks!

_Caveat: Given how fast a horse can move, and how fast they can turn, a rider can get a turn that would flip the horse. We do sometimes need to give the horse some warning. But if we have taught the horse correctly, the horse will still get the job done safely. I've watched Mia, without a rider, fall at high speed when scared and running mindlessly. But I think we would all agree running mindlessly is not the goal of a good rider - but it is something we sometimes need to handle!_

Because here is a truth Mia taught me, drilled into me, early on - a horse who wants to turn can turn far faster than I want to experience, and do so with maybe 1/10th of a second of self-induced rebalancing! Mia and Bandit both can turn with a speed and violence that darn near rips me out of the saddle, and do so starting from a relaxed, extended, uncollected walk.

Applying a sequence of cues to control the horse's motion may be good riding, but teaching the horse to control himself and respond to your wishes because it makes sense to do so is, IMHO, good horsemanship! Because:

*The horse is alive!

*< / rant >

:icon_rolleyes: :icon_rolleyes: :icon_rolleyes:
​


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## Hondo

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Maybe we need to set up an organization that educates biking clubs as to how to share the trails with horses.


Already done for motorcycle and likely bicycle also. Pull off the trail, stop, turn off engine, pull off helmet.

Problem is too many yahoos get full of adrenaline and just don't care.


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## tinyliny

I don't know about all that, bsms. It's a lot of info to digest 

I used to show dressage, on a very low level, and I know that there's a lot of 'pushing and shoving' going on, and the horse trying it's best to fill in, and a huge dependence on equipment. but it's not horrible. most of those horses lead a pretty good life.


my experience listening to Charlie Snell talk about wanting the horse 'to take us somewhere' was an eye openner. I don't know how to describe how this differs from someone 'making' a horse go over there'. there's just something that is more acceptable to the horse. I think that when you MAKE a horse go somewhere, and you definitely can do this, you make his body move somewhere, but his mind is somewhere else. that 'shcism' feels bad to the horse. jsut as they feel bad when a human is emotionally split from their actions, is, in effect, faking it.

but, back to the hrose . . . . when you ask the mind to go somewhere, and you then ask the feet to go there, too, it's very easy and the horse feels better about the going there, since HE has , in effect , committted to it and it becomes his decision. 

it's not all like jsut saying , 'pretty please, go that way'. you still control the horse and use your body to 'make' him do things. but it's more like you make your intention clear to him, until he joins his intention with yours, and he takes you somewhere.

the slight difference, is that in as much as possible, you don't force him to go somewhere until his mind IS ready and wanting to go there.

obviously, in high speed situations you cannot do this. but, while building a connection with the horse, you do have time to work slow and 'tease' him into having his intention line up with your own.

yesterday, out riding, X was particularly baulky. Five or six times when coming to a fork in the trail, he refused my request to take the one that added time to our ride. he knows the way home. he wanted to go home. I did not allow him to turn for home, but I did not get harsh, nor swat him. I continued to keep using the rein, my hand, my arm pointing, offering a door that way, to keep channeling my intention down the fork I wanted us to go. I looked for his mind to consider the possibility of going that way, and when I saw his eye and ear go that way, I added a bit of leg to energize HIS legs to take that door and go there , with me. I did not try to move his legs while his mind was still locked in going the other direction.


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## bsms

In your post, @*tinyliny* , you wrote:
."...my trainer, her mentor. and folks that have worked together and descending from Ray Hunt, and then Harry Whitney,* have a viewpoint that is simply not commonly seen out there*.

they are extremely careful not to try and quantify this teaching, and in any way organize, or systematize, in such a way that it no longer can offer the perspective that *is simply absent from the vast majority of online trainer or horsemanship gurus*. 

*this idea is that the horse has a mind, . . he /she has feelings*, and any training that does not take that in to account will be missing in a fundamental element of true horsemanship, through feel. " - boldface mine​.
That boggles my mind, yet I do think it is an uncommon approach. But take another look, and think about what you wrote:

"*this idea is that the horse has a mind, . . he /she has feelings, and any training that does not take that in to account will be missing in a fundamental element of true horsemanship*"​ 
What in the world do we do that results in it being unusual, "not commonly seen" and "absent from the vast majority of online trainer", "*this idea is that the horse has a mind, . . he /she has feelings...*"? :eek_color:

How much more fundamental can you get, to good riding and good horsemanship, than the seemingly novel idea that the horse has a mind and feelings, and that mind and those feelings need to be taken into account when riding him/her?

My wife and I were planning on going for a ride. When I was getting Bandit ready, I found a cut bleeding about 1/4" from the corner of his lips. I didn't have a sidepull with me, and couldn't justify putting a bit on top of the cut, so my wife suggested we take them for a walk instead. Which we did.

We ran into a neighbor who had horses prior to a bad back injury about 5-6 years ago. She wanted to see our horses, and we ended up talking while Cowboy and Bandit chowed down on weeds. Mustangs are not real particular!

She mentioned she had done most of her trail riding bareback with a hackamore. She also MAY go ride with us sometime. Her back is feeling better and she wants to get on a horse again! She admitted you don't provoke a fight with the horse bareback and miles from home...you work with him. You are in no position, bareback, to do more than "_ask, explain, convince_" - which is a very different approach to "_ask, tell, demand_".

It seems to me that "Ask, Explain, Convince" is a way of restating "_it's not all like just saying , 'pretty please, go that way'. you still control the horse and use your body to 'make' him do things. but it's more like you make your intention clear to him, until he joins his intention with yours, and he takes you somewhere._"

I find I need to limit options I cannot accept (turn and run, for example). Then work out something the horse and I can do together.

But why is that an unusual approach? Another poster, on the same thread and at the same time as the post about horses just wanting to eat, described what she did with horses as "_It's his JOB. He can please himself on his own time._" (paraphrased). I find that incredibly sad, and I don't care if the person is riding dressage, reining, doing pony express racing, etc. I DO understand it on a ranch, and in an odd way, I think horses understand it on a ranch too. But to ride for pleasure, and say the only pleasure that matters is mine...that takes my breath away. But it seems very common.

I told my daughters that if they would settle for sex, they wouldn't find love. A movie director who will settle for action isn't likely to build suspense. And a rider who doesn't care what a horse thinks cannot then complain about a horse who doesn't think - or care, or try his best.

When Bandit accepts responsibility for accomplishing X - which is how I phrase what I think you are describing - it is heavenly. Then WE do it TOGETHER, and he is bolder and I feel safer and we both take pleasure in having done it together. We don't hit that goal a huge percentage of time. But I cannot now imagine riding toward a different goal...


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## tinyliny

well, I guess it's not common in training because even without getting the horse's mind on to what you'd like him to think about, even without having his mind and his feet going the same direction, you can still get a horse to do a lot. sometimes, the mind comes along, and there's plenty of times you DO have to get super firm.
but, what these trainers I am talking about do when they get firm, and say, snap a flag noisily, or hit their chaps, or give a firm snap on the line, it isn't so much to force the hrose to do what they said, or to make his choice difficult, but to interrupt the horse's thought so that they have another chance to get the horse's intention to align with theirs. kind of a shake up so you have an open place to try to gently move the horse's thought toward your intention. 

maybe they are the same action, but if the person sees the firm / big/ harsh action as the thing that "makes' the horse do the desired action, they loose sight of the small 'ask' that they are shooting for. because they get really firm until the horse , just to run away from this harsh action, does the required thing, thus it appears that the harsh action is needed and affective.

but, if you think of getting firm as a way to interrupt a horse who is geting hard and distant in their thought long enough to access their mind with a soft suggestion, then you keep the goal of the 'ask' paramount in your mind, rather than going straight to the 'demand' because it works so well in getting action from the horse.


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## Hondo

I really like the ask, explain, convince! I'll be using that phrase. Plus a bunch of other stuff in both posts.

About the ranch horse though, if there is cattle work to be done, my experience is that there is a less need for directing. The horse knows whats going on and what needs to be done. He likes it and goes for it. I just hang on.


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## bsms

I sometimes used a whip with Mia. I never, ever, hit her with it. That would probably have been spectacular, but not in a way I'd like. I used it on my own leg, then she'd snap to...but since I used it about twice a year, I gave it up entirely. 

"_to interrupt the horse's thought so that they have another chance to get the horse's intention to align with theirs_" - @tinyliny

I thought about taking the whip with me, and again try hitting my own leg when Bandit...well, it is as though he gets focused on something and then becomes stuck in that train of thought, with his mind going further away - or, at least, not coming back to me. It would be interesting to see if that "snap" of a whip against my leg would pull his attention away from his fixation, and allow me a second chance to communicate with him. When his attention focuses hard on something, he stops listening at almost all levels.

Not sure how he's been treated in the past, so it also might get a reaction I wouldn't like. If I do, though, it will be more like shouting, "_Hey! I'm here! Now let's work together rather than you taking total control..._" 

"_...if you think of getting firm as a way to interrupt a horse who is getting hard and distant in their thought long enough to access their mind with a soft suggestion, then you keep the goal of the 'ask' paramount in your mind..._" - @tinyliny

That is a good description of Bandit at times, like when he stood in his corral, staring and not moving 12 inches for over 30 minutes. When he gets stuck, it is like he is in a trance. Getting him unstuck can be a challenge. But the goal is to get him unstuck so we can work together, not to make him, or "demand", anything. "_Ask, explain, convince_" translates "_Ask, Tell, Demand_" from a language of obedience into a language of cooperation. You tell and demand a subordinate, if you aren't good at leading. But it is an approaches that destroys friendship and a spirit of cooperation, one that recognizes the horse "_has a mind, . . he /she has feelings__, and any training that does not take that in to account will be missing in a fundamental element of true horsemanship..._"


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## LlamaPacker

Ask, Explain, Convince does sound like the modern way to manage employees, although my DH, being old-school, would probably still stay that for his workers the Demand part makes more sense and I think his employees have probably learned after all these years to hear his Demand as something that they want to convince themselves to do since they do learn a lot and get the satisfaction of finding a job done right. Interesting to hear middle-aged son get after dad as needing to handle employees more like thinking human beings... maybe DH will get it more if I explain it in this "horse-training" vernacular, as a near accident was caused by using force too soon on a creek crossing during pony's first pack trip this summer. Think the idea of more patience got through for 2nd trip, but, it is sometimes hard for old dogs to learn new tricks :\


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## Hondo

I do also slap my leg with the reins occasionally. But it's a gentle thing on the line of coaxing a little with my heels. I think of it as communication only and I believe Hondo does too.

I actually hit Hondo in the rump the other day with a lead rope when he was showing too much aggression toward Dragon to my liking. He looked at me with an expression that I read as, "What do you think you're doing?"

If I had done that during the first year it would have sent him off. The degree to which he showed no fear or alarm that I might actually hurt him made the day for me. Yes, he got some TLC.


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## bsms

One of the things I had to accept in the military was that some people just won't respond to positive motivation. Near the end of my career, I had a passed-over major dumped on me. He had 5 months left to retirement, had been passed over multiple times, was in Korea and bitter. During those last 5 months, I never found a way to get him to do anything more than just enough to avoid court martial.

But in my defense, he was 'given' to me by a guy who was about to court martial him in the hopes of not ruining the guy's life that way. There were others, too. Some folks just will not work without threat of punishment.

During the final 6 months of my career, I tore a civilian a new butthole. He'd been obstructing things, and I caught him lying to me. I chewed him out in front of a bunch of witnesses. He said he'd report me. I offered to go with him and chew him out in front of whoever he wanted to report me to, then took a deep breath and started in again. He wasn't in my 'chain of command', but I was sure going to make everyone know what I thought of him.

Didn't get in trouble, although my boss told me a better officer would inspire people. But that was the guy who couldn't have motivated an angry cat to get out of a paper sack, so I took his criticism...well, I went home, had a brew and laughed about it.

The last week on duty, we had a conference wrapping up a project. Folks came in from around the country. Two Chief Master Sergeants pulled me aside and asked me how I did it. "Did what?", I asked. "Get XXXX to do his job!", they replied. Said that XXXX had been there 7 years, and I was the first one who had ever gotten any work out of him. A TSgt who worked with XXXX overheard and started laughing. Said XXXX hated me with a passion and would have killed me if he thought he could get away with it, but he did his job to keep me from storming into the office and publicly chewing his butt again. The two CMSgts laughed, then agreed it was sad that some people acted that way - and sadder still that so many LET them get away with it.

There were people I could not motivate. But Bandit is a more cheerful fellow. He'd be a self-starter in business terms.


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## bsms

Since Bandit had a cut near the corner of his mouth, I brought out his new sidepull halter and we tried it in the arena this afternoon. My wife actually took movies, which were weird because they were done in slow motion. It is kind of cool to see Bandit trotting and cantering in slow motion. I need to get a Youtube account.

My wife said I was bouncing. I pointed out that I had shortened the stirrups, and my crotch probably touched the saddle at time, but only briefly and lightly. Afterward, I realized I had a Buck Ranger knife in my back pocket, which is a big hunk of steel to be riding with - but my butt didn't spend much time touching. That is OK - my goal for this afternoon was to work on shorter stirrups and going bitless.

I think Bandit was a bit wound up, so to speak, about being bitless. But I enjoyed how forward he was. The pictures are blurry because they are enlargements from a video. I really got a kick to see Bandit and I in slow motion. It was revealing....I remain a "5 Ingredient Rider" - a guy whose riding is very simplified because, frankly, I'm not good enough to do more.

Trotting:










Cantering: 








​ 
In the cantering picture, Bandit's right rear hoof had just touched down, while the other 3 are airborne. And I was also trying to make sure he didn't veer right and leave the arena.

My stirrups were two holes shorter than normal, but I liked them that way for arena riding. I've got to think hard about shortening them for trail riding. How would a spook be like this? I dunno...not sure I want to find out.

OTOH, I'm not exactly riding with super short stirrups anyways.

PS - I sometimes accuse Bandit of being a little homely, kind of like me. But I think Bandit looks nice in these pictures. Pity I'm not as good an athlete as he is...but I'm a lot older, too!


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## tinyliny

in the trot photo, you both look loose and forward. love it.

in the canter, you are leaning forward, but since this is his strike off portion of the canter, he will be in his most front-lifted position, and you will feel slightly as if on an uphill angle. you could lean back a bit more, but there's hardly a single amatuer rider who doesnt lean forward to much. I know I do.

the stirrup height is perfect, in my eyes.


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## gottatrot

Great pictures. I see a rider in balance and a horse using his body well. 

For me, the perfect stirrup length is short enough I can get off the saddle during a gallop or a patch of rough ground where the horse is very bouncy, but long enough that my ankles, knees and feet don't hurt after five minutes. This varies from horse to horse and even saddle to saddle. 

Very rough horses require a shorter stirrup because they will bounce up higher and you won't stay clear of the saddle otherwise. Very smooth horses can be ridden in a very long stirrup because you can be an inch off the saddle and never get "hit" by it during their strides. That's how it works for me, practically.

*******************************************
What floors me the most about the pervasive inability to see the horse as an autonomous creature with feelings and emotions is that it is just as common among natural horsemanship people as it is among the rough rider types.

Just the other day I read a post on a group on FB for bitless riders. It went something like, "It was just terrible. I was on my horse and suddenly it was like there was no control, no connection and I'm devastated because this means our bond is completely gone."

I thought, why is it all about you? What was going on with the horse? 

It seems to me that people don't value their horse as an individual, a creature with a completely unique personality they can get to know and appreciate with all its pleasant and difficult aspects. Instead, they want this weird thing where the horse gazes at them with starry eyes, worships them and does everything they ask without questioning because of their great bond and relationship. Or (for the non "natural" types) the horse behaves the same way as an obedient slave because they demand unquestioning obedience. 

In life, dogs are the closest creature I know of that can possibly fit this bill, but even dogs aren't quite up for that task. Sometimes a rat will run across the path under the dog's nose and instinct takes over. 

I'd love to have either of these types take Halla on for a bit and see how it goes. Although I'd have to specify that her current tack was used for everyone's safety. Ask, explain, convince is the ONLY thing that will work for a horse like her. 
Yesterday, she would have preferred to choose her own path although the beach had debris scattered everywhere. 

I'd ask Halla to take a path to the left. She'd say "No, thanks, this path is fine for me." 

I'd say, "Please take a path to the left because there is a log on the right we're about to trip over." 

She'd say "Weeellllll....OK. You've convinced me." 
Then abruptly, we'd go where I'd been asking her to go.

If I did ask, tell, demand, we'd end up falling over the log with Halla's neck cranked around to the left as we went down in a heap. 

Yes, in an emergency you will push a good friend out of the way of harm, even if it's rude and you hurt them a bit. But for everyday life, you don't insist that they do everything you want to do, when you want to do it. A friend doesn't always go to the movie you want to see, eat the food you think they should, follow your exact timelines. That's a slave, not a friend.


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## bsms

Thanks, tinyliny. I appreciate your comments. I'm weak at cantering because we don't do it much. The arena is kind of small and Bandit needs work on his flexibility before he'll be able to canter OK in it. And I doubt he'll ever be much better than OK. There are places off property, but my wife isn't up for any real cantering and I still have trust issues with Bandit cantering alone. As in many things, I limit Bandit more than I enable him...but we're building trust.

I was pleased at how he went bitless today, but we'll need to experiment more.

So we're working on it...
_
"A friend doesn't always go to the movie you want to see, eat the food you think they should, follow your exact timelines. That's a slave, not a friend._"

Indeed. Yet obedient slave is what we seem to train people to want from a horse. Control = safe. Except a horse who is in agreement with you is a much safer ride. A horse who understands and accepts is a much safer ride.

Bandit has some issues. I have some issues. It really isn't anything like what a lot of NH types discuss, but I think we are starting to feel comfortable with working on our issues together. It is very much a two way street, a continual give and take. It isn't a "bond". It isn't something supernatural that descends after 3 round pen sessions, or by my whispering something. It is trust rooted in experience, but it is also trust that requires accepting some risk. Trust has to be tested and challenged for it to grow.


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## tinyliny

I don't canter much either. it's really ridiculous. but, X soon becomes very bunched up at the canter, and I've worked the last year in getting him to lenthen out and lower his neck and stop sucking back. as soon as we start cantering, all that goes to hell.

when I ride my friend's horse, he will canter at the drop of a hat, but my back is not able to deal well with the motion. it's truly pitiful.


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## Cammey

bsms said:


> Since Bandit had a cut near the corner of his mouth, I brought out his new sidepull halter and we tried it in the arena this afternoon. My wife actually took movies, which were weird because they were done in slow motion. It is kind of cool to see Bandit trotting and cantering in slow motion. I need to get a Youtube account.


If you ever do get a youtube account please post it - I would love to watch your videos.


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## bsms

Cammey said:


> If you ever do get a youtube account please post it - I would love to watch your videos.


You won't love it after you see it! This is cantering. I've got to say, watching myself in slow-motion is embarrassing. It is kind of scary. Every flaw in slooo-mooootioooon.


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## LlamaPacker

Agreed! Maybe time for you to get that YouTube account so we can see slow-motion canter and good riding position. From what I've read, YouTube is so simple even a six-year-old can do it ... and, the article went on to say, "unfortunately, too many of them do."


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## bsms

LlamaPacker said:


> Agreed!...so we can see slow-motion canter and good riding position...."


So much for good riding position... But I'm honest, I guess. And slow motion is VERY honest!






At least my legs are taking most of the shock, and not my butt and his back (directly). I think. I had a large Buck knife in my back pocket and forgot it was there, so I can't be sinking too far into the saddle...sure looks awful, though.

I do think these videos show a trot and canter in an easy to see way in terms of how the horse moves...


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## bsms

Got a very short ride in on Bandit. I feel bad about my videos and I wanted to experiment with some things. His lip had scabbed over, so I took a chance on his new bit. Jeffers sent me the wrong one. I wanted the one with a knuckle in the middle with one joint, and they sent me the dogbone version with a roller. Said some bad words, then decided to keep it and try it.

The advantage to it can be seen in this photo. It will keep the mouthpiece crossing the tongue at 90 degrees and won't allow things to sag toward his teeth - which are just in front of his lip corner:








​ 
Just one ride, so too soon to say. But it looks promising. I've got about a half-wrinkle in Bandit's lip, but I might be able to drop it another hole without it sagging into his teeth. He seemed very relaxed in it, but like Mia, he has now been in a LOT of different bits.

I took the sheepskin off the saddle, dropped my stirrups two holes and tried how it felt. The sheepskin covers a multitude of sins. With bare, hard leather underneath...yeah, I slide more. The cantle curves around enough that the sides touch me where my buttocks meet my thighs. But because I have no more butt than Whinnie the Pooh had brain, there is then a big gap behind me - easily an inch, maybe more. So the saddle would be the right size if I could convince my fat to end its love affair with my belly button and migrate to where it would do me some good. Of course, after 58 years, I doubt my fat will pay any more attention to me now than it has during the previous 5+ decades....

In terms of position and motion, though, it is a mixed bag. I was trying to do a two point yesterday and stand in the stirrups. If that is my goal, I need to shorten my stirrups more so I can get further out of the saddle. 

But it was and is easier to scoop my rear along and sit the canter with the longer leg - preferably a hole longer than what I used today. What I did yesterday results in my needing to poop or get off the pot - one of the other, but halfway in between allows me to do neither right.

But I tried something I hadn't tried before. I put my fingertips under the rear of the saddle tree (at a standstill), and tried to compare how the TREE was affected by my leaning back as far as I could, or as far forward without moving my hand. And the result was that the tips of the saddle tree may have moved 1/4" tops. I'd guess closer to 1/8". That would be in line with what the Nikkels say about a good saddle tree - that a cowboy can rope and haul cattle all day without needing a rear cinch. I suspect the results would be different with an English tree. Leaning forward DOES match my center of gravity to my horse's as he accelerates. But I don't think it is affecting the PSI under the saddle much, or the saddle balance much. The western rider can never get very far forward on a western tree, and the stirrups are hung on 3" leathers much further back. In fact, the rear edge of the leathers is almost centered on the tree:








​ 
This would also support why my horses often act indifferent to my position. If the tree fits, and the cinch is medium tight...maybe it just doesn't change things much. They KNOW I'm moving, but the tree might not be shifting enough for it to cause them a problem.

Hmmmm....more to think about.

Also, I did try cantering with my fingertips under the rear of the tree. All I learned was that it was a great way for me to look and feel like an idiot. It was so awkward that I didn't learn squat, other than that I was glad my wife didn't come out and take pictures.

What I'm leaning toward now is saying that I don't care about proper position. Maybe my compromise stirrup length is perfectly acceptable to my horse. Bandit didn't seem to mind it. It felt secure to me. And my hands were OK.

I realize I grossly overthink things, to the point of being hopelessly anal. But the mechanics of riding and how tack affects the mechanics of riding fascinates me. I'd love to try some of this with a pressure pad...except I've read that interpreting the results is tough. But it is frustrating. They can spend money to study rollkur on Warmbloods, but not to find out what happens when a 5 Ingredient Rider rides a Craigslist horse. I'd like to see a study: 

The Effects of Six Riding Positions by Doofus Riders Riding a Craigslist Horses ​
That would be something that might apply to millions of horses. Rollkur? Who needs to study it? Isn't the Yuck Factor enough?


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## tinyliny

bsms,

I watched about half that slo mo video of you posting the trot, and , guess what? to me, you aren't posting at all. you are sort of lalf seating it.


you are going up and down with every footfall. you are rising both on the right AND the left shoulder. I looked at this several times and it looks like rather than posting , you are just moving long sort of loosely and lightly standing in teh stirrup, absorbing the motion with slight up and down with every foot fall. I guess that is what you would call a half seat.


watch it. watch yourself rise and say, which shoulder is going forward as I go up? oh, the right one. ok . . .but then when you go up the next time, the left shoulder is going forward. it's double time of posting.


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## bsms

I wasn't trying to post. I wasn't trying to sit. I was trying to stay just out of the saddle. My main focus was my hands, and trying to keep Bandit going in the right direction without using much pressure on his face.

This is at 4:24 in the video. It is my lowest point to the saddle in that cycle:








​ 
About 2 seconds later, at the high point:








​ 
Enlarged like that, I don't think I was too far off at a trot. I'm not cycling very far down into the seat, nor very far out. My legs are doing OK as shock absorbers, but there is a lot of room for improvement. Ideally, my center of gravity would graph on a straight line, so that Bandit would not be wasting effort moving my weight in the vertical - but that goal is beyond me.

And Bandit is still too tense and stiff in the back. He will once in a while give me a nice jog, and sometimes he is much stiffer than in the video. Given his past experience being ridden at 30% or higher body weight, he used to automatically go to "steel I-beam" stiff. Now he is merely tense and hard. The goal is supple...but we both have challenges.

The cantering bothers me a lot more, but I haven't practiced it much and the lack of practice shows. On a straight line, I think I get in better synch with Bandit, but my cantering really needs work. I may press Trooper into service. He is less stiff at a canter. He needs the exercise, and unlike Bandit, he doesn't care how many laps we do. Bandit, OTOH, is not fond of arena work. I actually appreciate how patient he was yesterday and today. Like Mia, he just doesn't see much purpose in working hard to go in circles...

PS - I hate posting. I'd rather walk or stand than continually get in and out of a chair, and I feel the same way about posting a trot. If we went for miles, it might be different. But we rarely have more than 1/4 mile good for trotting at a time, and for that, I can stand. I don't mind a sitting trot, but Bandit protects his back, I think, and anything I can do to get off it seems worth a try.


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## tinyliny

that explains it. I somehow, in my mixed up brain, thought you had said it was a video of you posting. my bad, mr.

I see exactly what you are talking about. I used to do that on Mac, the apaloosa I used to ride, because he had a short choppy trot that was easiest to sort of 'float' over it. 


I think to be in that position, you have to be leaning a bit forward. it's not possible otherwise.


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## tinyliny

Bandit would be an interesting horse to work with Harry Whitney. you might consider trailering him over to do a clinic at his Arizona ranch.


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## gottatrot

tinyliny said:


> I see exactly what you are talking about. I used to do that on Mac, the apaloosa I used to ride, because he had a short choppy trot that was easiest to sort of 'float' over it.
> 
> 
> I think to be in that position, you have to be leaning a bit forward. it's not possible otherwise.


Agree, I think of it as a very low two point. You're off the saddle but barely, and your weight goes up and down onto your thighs and down through your legs (but not onto your butt) with each stride.

I was just impressed at how nicely Bandit tracks up and how straight he travels at the trot. Each hind comes up equally into the heel of the footprint of the front hoof. He reaches very well and stays even around the bends. Really a nice, straight mover, uses his body well.

Your discussions are _not_ helping me with my decision about getting another saddle. Why ARE english stirrups attached to the front of the tree? No wonder we always struggle with pressure there. Perhaps for a heavy two pointer and galloper like myself, it would be helpful to have the stirrups attached to the center of the tree to distribute the pressure and not unbalance the horse.


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## Cammey

bsms said:


> You won't love it after you see it! This is cantering. I've got to say, watching myself in slow-motion is embarrassing. It is kind of scary. Every flaw in slooo-mooootioooon.


Thank you!

See I think this is awesome - just to be able to see the details of the movement and the riding in general. That said, I also can see how this would be a really nifty way to self-correct and pick at things if that's what floated your boat.


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## bsms

tinyliny said:


> Bandit would be an interesting horse to work with Harry Whitney. you might consider trailering him over to do a clinic at his Arizona ranch.


I'd love to do that some day. If you will remember, at first I didn't like Harry Whitney and considered him too "zen" for my tastes. But over time, I've come to appreciate his way of thinking. I think sometimes we need to have certain experiences, or come to certain conclusions on our own, before we can understand what another person is really saying.

If I'm at A, and someone is teaching about D, it may make no sense. But if I've got A down, am thinking hard about B, and encountering something that is making me consider C, then the same passage can fill in the blanks and get my MIND to A, B, C & D. Unfortunately, my body may not be able to perform D. Or my mind may not be able to read the horse well enough to do D. But if I can grasp D, I can then work on it.

And a lot of times, I find my horse is already operating at E, and reaching back to me. But my horse may have physical limits too. Bandit can canter OK in our arena counter-clockwise, but he needs to take an egg-shaped circle. At the top of the egg, you could see how he falls into a trot and then resumes a canter coming out of it. And in the opposite direction, he takes a counter-canter.

I ought to do more arena work to loosen him up at a trot clockwise. Just as stiffness in MY body hampers MY riding, stiffness in Bandit's body hampers his ability to be ridden. I guess one advantage to taking Motrin before a ride is that I can understand when he is stiff, and not complain he is being rebellious or stubborn!

I think Harry Whitney allows for auditing. If so, I might try that first.

_"He reaches very well and stays even around the bends. Really a nice, straight mover, uses his body well._"

I was happy with his attitude. He was tense because we don't do this sort of thing often, and it was his first try in that sidepull (which I like a lot better than the first - softer rope and no knots on the bridge of his nose). He also doesn't like just going in circles. But he was willing enough..."_If it matters to you, I guess I'll give it a shot_" type of thing. Horses seem like very eager to cooperate creatures, which is why I don't understand the folks who think their horses spend their nights plotting to take over the world.

"_Why ARE english stirrups attached to the front of the tree?_"

Because there is no where else to put them. I think the question ought to be, "_Why does the English saddle tree end at the stirrup bars?_" Some folks are experimenting with flared ends to the English tree, but I think the English tree is fundamentally flawed. Suppose, instead of the front ending in a point, one placed a ball bearing at the point, and underneath had something similar to the front of a western tree, about the size of a persons hand, and rounded like the western one so the muscles could slide easily underneath. The ball bearing would automatically allow the front of the saddle to adjust to an angle it was resting on.

The English saddle panels now extend down the sides, forming an L. The Australian style never gained that downward panel - it just goes front to back. I think that L-shaped panel was added to help distribute weight toward the front, but a panel running nearly vertical on the side doesn't do that. It seems to me English saddle makers need to replace the "point" with a "palm".

When people talk about saddle fit, they discuss the spine and the ribs as if the bones carry the weight. But what bothers the horse, IMHO, is pressure against the muscle and skin. Heck, the front legs of the horse aren't even attached - if one looks at skeletons. The muscles in the shoulder bear all the weight of the horse's body, plus the rider. We are carried by muscle and skin, not by bones. So why would we EVER design a saddle tree with a front end like this:








​ 
I realize there are panels and flocking underneath. But when I tried my western saddle on a short wool pad, where the pad barely reached the front of the saddle, even THAT created a ridge of pressure in the front.

But a western saddle has a very wide twist, so to speak. Keeping lower leg contact is easy n my Australian saddle. Rarely happens with my western one. Which then raises the question: Why do so many people say they can ride a Western and English saddle the same? I try to, so I know it CAN be tried. But the western saddle does NOT fit me anything like the Australian (and English) one. 

What I tried yesterday, leaning forward and back, has convinced me I can probably ride an adapted forward seat in my western saddle, and my horse won't care. As long as my center of gravity lines up with his, the saddle will take care of protecting his back. But I think this photo, probably taken around 1930, shows how a western saddle it designed to be ridden:








​ Erwin E. Smith Collection Guide | Collection Guide​ 
I would feel incredibly uncomfortable riding fast like this:








​ _Emory Sager, of the Shoe Bar Ranch on "Old Blue", his "Wonder Horse", cutting out cattle from the herd. Shoe Bar Ranch, Texas_, 1912

Erwin E. Smith Collection Guide | Collection Guide​ 
Same guy here:








​ 
I don't have it in me to ride that way. But I'd also bet my horse wouldn't mind if I did. Almost all modern teaching is that the rider above is abusing his horse, but most modern teaching is rooted in the English saddle. I've only been able to find a handful of western riding books, and not a single one discusses western riding.

The guy I took lessons from at Utah State one quarter, who was an ex-cowboy, wrote a book. He did a cut & paste from a dressage manual. He included a cut & paste about how shoulder - hip - heel all need to be in a vertical line. Yet in a hundred photos of him riding in the book, the ONLY one where he obeyed that rule was the one taken to illustrate it!

I guess that is why I feel free to experiment with Mia and Bandit, and try to adapt the forward seat to my western saddle, while keeping my main goal - keeping the horse between me and the ground, even when the horse doesn't tell me what he is going to do - as my top priority.

I truly get frustrated when almost all the studies about weight and balance in riding are oriented to riding dressage with warmbloods. I know that is where the big bucks are available. But it would be soooo nice to see a study done of weight distribution, in motion, using a western saddle and multiple styles of riding. Which one IS best for the horse? Instead, we study rollkur...


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## Bondre

I enjoyed your videos. You both look good and I second gottatrot's comment on how nicely Bandit moves. As for you, for sure, you can pick yourself apart at the canter - but can't we all? Or at least, those of us who aim for functional riding rather than winning ribbons for elegance. Staying balanced on top of the horse and enabling him to do his stuff is that first consideration. 

I tend to lean forward myself, and I am aware of this and try to not do it; but it's very hard not to at times. I think I could use my stirrups being a bit further back, so then I wouldn't need to lean forward to keep my centre of gravity in the right place. So your ruminations on saddle trees are most interesting. Are the stirrups actually placed further back on a western saddle? (never having met one in the flesh).

Have you come across Jean-Luc Cornille and his website The Science of Motion?Horse Trainer,Lameness ,Dressage Jumpers and 3 day event Horse Training I Have barely dipped into it myself as it is enormous and full of information on equine biomechanics. I really like the articles he writes called 'Chazot thoughts', about the world seen through the eye of a retired racehorse Chazot. Well worth a look. 

A little quote from the first page which caught my eye, and reminded me of what you say about spending several years digging yourself into a hole with Mia.
_Molly Ivins says, “The first rule of holes: When you’re in one, stop digging”. Walter Zettl wrote, “Ride your horse into heaven and not into the ground”. When your horse is in the hole, stop digging his grave. _


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## bsms

I wasn't thrilled with my riding, as revealed in slow motion, but I do think I've been being too hard on myself. For now, I'm breaking it into three sections:

1 - Hands. Score: B+. For an A, I would have needed to have the exact same amount of slack in the reins at all times. I failed. But I didn't do bad, and have seen far worse. I didn't quite manage to follow the motion of his head while compensating for my own motion...but I wasn't far off. And since I rarely canter, and usually ride with one hand, I did better than I had a right to do.

2 - Matching my balance to Bandit's. Score: C+. I intentionally try to stay a little behind my horse, because that gives me something to play with if my horse acts unexpectedly. But I was too far behind Bandit in the canter. Not gross, but needs improvement. Still, I don't think I was throwing him off balance. I had enough balance to mostly follow his mouth, and that couldn't happen if I was too far off in balance. I don't think you can follow with the hands if you are not also following with the seat - or stirrups, since I was mostly out of the seat.

A lot of our riding is done at a walk, off trail. I do need to practice more in the arena. Maybe do 5 minutes at the end of a trail ride, so Bandit won't get bored.

3 - Protecting his back. Score: A. Not because of my riding, but because the saddle fits him pretty well and is well designed to protect him from my problems as a rider. At 1:07 in the cantering video, I come down more against his back than I like to admit. But it wasn't gross, and the saddle offers him good protection from what was there. For me...maybe a B. After all, I was riding with my Buck Ranger knife folded in the bottom of my rear pocket. It isn't a tiny knife (Internet picture):








​ 
It was closed, of course, but I couldn't have been slapping down into the saddle if I forgot it was there.

So I need work, but that is a given. Bandit also needs some work, and we'll try to get it in - a little here, a little there. Maybe more cantering, because he likes the speed even if he has problems with maintaining it through the egg shape pattern.

Jean-Luc Cornille's website was where I first read about how horses actually move. What he said differed from most people, but he backs it up with studies and reason. The idea that the primary function of the back is to transmit power from the rear so that it moves the front, the idea that horses do not round their backs, that they do not support weight when bringing their hind legs deep underneath them - and most of all, that horses will find a way of moving that pleases us, even if it hurts them to do so. But if you horse lifts his back (rounds) by increasing the peak impact on his front legs so he can vault you higher - how in the heck is that helping the horse? True practices never violate true motion, but false practices do - and we have many false practices because we don't try to understand how a horse really moves!


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## egrogan

Bondre said:


> As for you, for sure, you can pick yourself apart at the canter - but can't we all? Or at least, those of us who aim for functional riding rather than winning ribbons for elegance. Staying balanced on top of the horse and enabling him to do his stuff is that first consideration.
> 
> I tend to lean forward myself, and I am aware of this and try to not do it; but it's very hard not to at times. _... _


I so agree with this! In my favorite picture I have of me riding, I wish I could just reach through the screen and just puussshhhh my upper body/shoulders backwards a few inches.


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## bsms

FWIW, Anne Kursinski recommends leaning forward about 30 degrees at a posting trot. Less at a canter.


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> But a western saddle has a very wide twist, so to speak. Keeping lower leg contact is easy in my Australian saddle. Rarely happens with my western one. Which then raises the question: Why do so many people say they can ride a Western and English saddle the same? I try to, so I know it CAN be tried. But the western saddle does NOT fit me anything like the Australian (and English) one.


Which is my dilemma. I want the balance of the western tree on my horse's back, but I want the narrow twist of the english seat. I want the english stirrup leathers that help me adjust my leg position easily to what the horse is doing. But I know that my horses' backs have been good only because my saddles fit very well and I am very light. My poorly fitted or cheaper english saddles were very unforgiving and the horses could not do long, fast rides without getting sore backs. 

My friends that are large and ride fine-boned horses have had to go to western trees.
But when I sit in their saddles it is uncomfortable to be so wide. I do keep riding in two point and off the saddle, but my body has to do a lot more work to not bump around.



bsms said:


> I wasn't thrilled with my riding, as revealed in slow motion, but I do think I've been being too hard on myself...
> 
> 1 - Hands. Score: B+. For an A, *I would have needed to have the exact same amount of slack in the reins at all times. *I failed.
> 
> 2 - Matching my balance to Bandit's. Score: C+. I intentionally try to stay a little behind my horse, because that gives me something to play with if my horse acts unexpectedly. But I was too far behind Bandit in the canter. Not gross, but needs improvement...
> 
> 3 - Protecting his back. Score: A. Not because of my riding, but because the saddle fits him pretty well and is well designed to protect him from my problems as a rider.


I honestly didn't see anything in the videos to critique. What I find amusing is that all of you thoughtful, studious riders (@Bondre, @tinyliny, @egrogan, @bsms) lament about leaning forward. I've noted for several years how many very good riders say "but I lean too far forward." This has made me dismiss the idea that _*I *_lean too far forward. Every good rider I know leans forward? Perhaps leaning forward is good riding. Do you really want to be galloping on this horse (Nala) and not leaning forward to match her motion?









The point in #1 about following hands...I don't see pressure put on the sidepull, so it doesn't matter if the reins change in the amount of slackness. In my mind, a rider with an independent seat does not cue the horse unless he means to. What the reins do when "neutral" is a non issue.

#2 I can't comment on because only the rider can feel where the balance point is and if they are behind the motion, with it or in front of it. I do believe there is no rule except to stay with the horse's motion.

#3 If the rider contacts the saddle gently enough to not to give the horse a sore back, rides efficiently enough to not get sore before the ride is over (losing the ability as a rider to stay with the horse and out of the horse's way), does not throw off or restrict the horse's balance, then it's all good.

I do see some riders that start out well and then get tired and flop all over the horse. Our riding style needs to be efficient enough that we can keep it up for the entire ride.


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## bsms

Just had an excellent ride on Bandit! A short one. 30 minutes. The weightlifting I did last night left my lower back tired and I almost skipped riding. Glad I didn't, but 30 minutes left my eyes bugging out. So I decided Bandit needed "End of Lesson". Had nothing to do with the gasping I did while dismounting...

In the "poop or get off the pot" category, I decided to repeat having my stirrups up short, to the length I used in the videos. That is the shortest I've ever ridden with. I also gave Bandit's new bit a second try.

In his mouth with the throat latch too tight...got that corrected before mounting:








​ 
End of Lesson...yeah, Bandit got to eat some today:








​ 
It seems to work really well. He doesn't have much of a wrinkle, but the design keeps it well away from his teeth. Given how forward he acted bitless, and in the last two rides with the new bit, could his previous bit have sometimes given him trouble? Maybe. Because El Bandito was ready to go!

We did some trotting, but someone put his "Auto-canter switch" to on. Spent the ride trying to convince him we didn't NEED to canter. Went for a short 1/4 mile trip on pavement. He trotted part of it. Cantered briefly. When we turned around, he wanted to canter home. I insisted we walk, because I don't want him to start thinking about racing home.

As we entered the arena...120 feet straight ahead. He noticed. I figured what the heck, so we cantered. Only 40 yards, but it was straight. He liked it. A lot.

Instead of trying for a half seat, I tried to stay in the seat. Wasn't great at it, but not bad. And I couldn't have been too bad a couple of days ago, either, because I don't think he'd have been so eager if it had bothered him before. He would trot at the very thought, and wanted to canter more often than I did. I took to bribing him: "_Here's some grass...come on, eat some...(pant, pant)...go ahead, grab another bite..._" We'd walk, he'd chew, and then he was ready to go again.

We did one of our first stop to canter transitions. We were stopped, he was thinking about it, I said, "Do you wanna..." - and at the "w", we started a canter. We even powered through the small part of the egg shape several times. By the end, I was going, "_No, easy, you can trot...nothing wrong with trotting, you know..._"

I think the shorter stirrup is going to be my new standard. It was feeling pretty good after 10 minutes, and by twenty I was thinking about shortening it a hole. I didn't, and don't plan to anytime soon. But by End of Lesson, MY lesson was that it was feeling really good. Heels were getting down and (interestingly) my feet were creeping back out of the stirrup, from the normal "home" position to almost ball of foot. I've been using the home position for 8 years straight, so that was very unusual.

But it was FUN. WE had FUN. Bandit didn't complain about being in the arena.

I don't know if it was the change in my position, or the change in bits. I really think, tho, that it was mostly bit. I got to thinking. At a canter or trot, wouldn't any sagging in a snaffle be emphasized by the downward beat? Could some of those downward beats have pulled the regular snaffle far enough down to hit his teeth? That has been my struggle with him - how not to pull his lips back like The Joker but still not hit his teeth. On a trail ride, with him mostly walking, maybe it wasn't hitting his teeth. But maybe, with the downward momentum at a fast trot and canter, it was.

I don't know. I do feel pretty good now that, as much as I disliked how I looked riding, it wasn't bothering Bandit. From the moment I mounted up, he was ready to GO. And I think that is really cool! Even if I do need to take 800 mg of Motrin...



gottatrot said:


> ... Our riding style needs to be efficient enough that we can keep it up for the entire ride.


That, or we make sure our ride ends before our body does???!!! The over 50 crowd understands...:mrgreen:

BTW - Did I mention what a great guy Bandit is? :racing: :racing: :racing:
:cheers:​


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## horseluvr2524

I like the looks of that bit. My mare also prefers a French link snaffle over a regular snaffle. I've tested both on my own arm and personally think that the French link is more comfortable, but I've ridden horses who liked the regular snaffle better (D ring).

Isn't that an amazing feeling when you figure out what was wrong and all of a sudden your horse is just so happy and he wants to go? When I finally found a solution to Shan's saddle fitting issues, all she wanted to do was canter on that trial ride! She was just so happy to be comfortable, which made me happy too.

Their joy is so infectious :grin:


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## bsms

horseluvr2524 said:


> ...Their joy is so infectious :grin:


Worth repeating. Worth my renewing my friendship with Mr Motrin tonight! When your horse is excited about being out and riding, it is just incredible - *Their joy is so infectious!*


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## horseluvr2524

bsms said:


> Jean-Luc Cornille's website was where I first read about how horses actually move. What he said differed from most people, but he backs it up with studies and reason. The idea that the primary function of the back is to transmit power from the rear so that it moves the front, the idea that horses do not round their backs, that they do not support weight when bringing their hind legs deep underneath them - and most of all, that horses will find a way of moving that pleases us, even if it hurts them to do so. But if you horse lifts his back (rounds) by increasing the peak impact on his front legs so he can vault you higher - how in the heck is that helping the horse? True practices never violate true motion, but false practices do - and we have many false practices because we don't try to understand how a horse really moves!


Interesting point, I will have to check out his website. I am still figuring out my own views on collection and whether, when done truly and correctly, it is actually beneficial to the horse.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Before some of the hell fire discussions on the forum, I guess I just never got into the whole collection thing; never really thought about it a whole lot. I can just feel when the horse hits a point where he is freed up in the way he/she is moving every part and then that is collection (I only know because I’ve had instructors yell “there it is!”). 

The thought of “asking for collection” never occurred to me (being a western rider) it is just something that happens when everything you are doing is right for the horse and the horse finds it for itself.

IME, if you have to ask for it, then something isn’t quite right and you have to fix something with you; balance, position of weight in the seat, head position, maybe consider that something else is making the horse uncomfortable…something, so that the horse can find that sweet spot of movement not because you ask but, because moving that way is the most comfortable, most efficient for the horse. It might look a little differently for different conformations of horses.

To me collection is an efficient, comfortable and natural way of moving that benefits the horse and so he will seek it; not an artificially created thing that we "ask" for.

Collection might be a bit of the chicken and the egg situation. It is something that happened naturally when all things were right and then in an attempt to prove that they were riding correctly, people tried to create collection instead of just letting it happen......


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## bsms

From the dressage position, collection is a tucking under of the rear, a lifting of the withers, supposedly with a transfer of balance to the rear, with a vertical head. In a collected trot:
."The Horse, remaining “on the bit”, moves forward with the neck raised and arched. The hocks, being well-engaged and flexed, must maintain an energetic impulsion, enabling the shoulders to move with greater mobility, thus demonstrating complete selfcarriage. Although the Horse’s steps are shorter than in the other trots, elasticity and cadence are not lessened." - Rules of Dressage​."When riding the horse long and low, the back came up, the bow from hindquarters to mouth was put in tension, the entire muscle chain was stretched. There is no difference when collecting the horse, except the stretch is now directed upward instead of forward. This elevation against gravity, without getting tight in the process, requires a great deal of basic tension (and requires the horse to be closed in between the driving reins and restraining aids). The "rubber band" may never lose its arching oscillations. Especially during collection, the oscillations become rather pronounced, and the horse's back moves increasingly up and down as the horses steps and strides become loftier and more cadenced. This of course requires that the horse is well contained between the pushing aids and restraining aids, because this relatively high basic tension with is necessary for collection can only be obtained in this way...Prolonged collecting work is very strenuous for the horse." - Balance in Movement, The Seat of the Rider by Susanne von Dietze, page 120​.
There is a long and bitter discussion of rounding the back here:

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding/horse-movement-inverted-round-674346/

My own take is much like Reiningcatsanddogs, I think: A horse who self-collects because he knows he can and wants to is a pleasure and it is good exercise. A horse who has collection taught to him - unless taught by a sensitive and expert rider - doesn't truly collect anyways. What Susanne von Dietze describes, accurately for many horses, is not beautiful:
."This of course requires that the horse is well contained between the pushing aids and restraining aids, because this relatively high basic tension which is necessary for collection can only be obtained in this way...Prolonged collecting work is very strenuous for the horse."​.
Unless one has the needed skill, tact and understanding, you get what is written above - a horse trapped between the "pushing aids" and "restraining aids" - which is why old texts showed a horse learning by restraining its forward movement by tying it to two posts while someone used a whip in the rear.

Thus Gen Chamberlin's comment: "*For the most part, a high state of collection is totally unnecessary, and except with the most finished rider is the proverbial razor in the hands of a monkey.*" 

However, even a simplistic rider like myself can easily work on encouraging self-collection. A horse trotting up a 10 deg hill automatically shifts it balance to the rear, from 57:43 to 50:50. A horse trying to turn without leaning - and leaning is a normal and acceptable way for a horse to turn - will shorten its strides and shift its balance on its own. A horse who transitions between gaits will often realize it does so easiest if it rebalances and momentarily collects.

Bandit gets hill work, just because there is almost no level terrain where I live. Transitions can be done while going down a trail. Since we often have smooth ground for 100 yards, then rocks sticking out for 30 yards, then smooth for 50 yards, then a sharp turn, etc - it is easy to ask for a trot or (if I trust him and anyone with me doesn't object) a canter, knowing that we will need to be walking in 100 yards to preserve his hooves.

All of this only teaches a modest degree of collection, and it has nothing to do with putting a horse "on the bit". VS Littauer was my first "instructor", and my favorite writer, but I've completely parted ways with him here. He said loose reins were for a beginning rider, constant contact marked an intermediate rider, and putting a horse on the bit marked an expert rider. I think every horse should learn to deal with near constant contact for short periods, for those times when things are tight and you need to be very directive. But I also think relying on constant contact indicates a poorly trained horse.

There, I said it. I might survive writing that on a journal page, but it would cause a meltdown anywhere else. I think relying on constant contact indicates a poorly trained horse. I think this is the primary difference between a western approach and an English one - although many "western" arena sports use intimidation instead of constant contact, which is even worse.

But if you accept that the horse has a mind, and that a horse likes to show off its powers, that they are social beings who love variety and amusement, and thrill to having a human team mate, then I do not understand how constant contact and worse, putting a horse on the bit, is higher riding. To me it is lower riding.

I accept, as Littauer did, that a tight show jumping course requires the rider control almost every step and movement. No horse, on its own, can understand a modern show jumping course and perform it to the maximum. But then, Littauer also considered a modern show jumping contest to be as much a circus trick as dressage became:
."But then there occurred in riding what has often happened before in other human activities - man's ambition to attain the barely attainable took over jumping; it forced many international horsemen to drop Caprilli's method and to search for other, more forcible means of making horses negotiate almost impossible combinations of obstacles. Today many of these horsemen will rightly tell you that Caprilli's basic tenet, that "there is little in common between ring riding and cross-country riding" could be altered to - "there is little in common between cross-country riding and international show jumping.' Show jumping has become a narrow specialty...Artificial jumping problems, and the corresponding artificial means of solving them, have placed such jumping just around the corner from the tanbark of the circus. Just as in former days our ancestors admired the particularly artificial feats of High School, so today many of us enjoy a new type of circus - unnaturally high obstacles assembled in tricky combinations..."​.
What the Cavalry taught, and Littauer strongly preferred, was that you taught the horse to jump, and then got out of his way. I would say you teach a horse to negotiate a trail, then get out of his way. You teach a horse to turn smoothly, then get out of his way. You teach a horse to transition gaits. And Bandit showed yesterday even he and I can transition from standing to cantering with little more than a thought - IF THE HORSE WANTS TO!

You present the horse with increasing challenges. The horse learns how to handle them. The rider gets out of the way of the horse, so the horse can handle the challenge for the rider, which makes the horse feel proud of himself.

That approach would never win a dressage competition, a reining competition, a WP show or a jumping competition. But to me, winning competitions has nothing to do with horsemanship. Maybe equitation, but not horsemanship.

And since many "for fun" riders are no better than I am, we should accept our status as "5 Ingredient Riders" and set goals within our grasp, ones we can reach without overwhelming the horse and without ignoring his mind.

*< / rant >*​ 
This is one of the few dressage riders and horses I enjoy watching. I think she is brilliant. So is the horse. For the most part, I really enjoy watching them. But this canter has nothing to do with how I want my horse to canter, and I honestly cannot understand why anyone would admire it. This is an amazing rider and an amazing horse, doing something utterly worthless - in a record breaking performance:








​


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## bsms

Another Littauer quote, just because I can and because I find his views on a forward seat instructive:

""Seunig also fails to recognize the fact that the Forward Seat and the Dressage Seat (he calls the latter the Normal Seat) have little in common, *because the balance of the first is primarily based in the stirrups and that of the latter in the saddle*. Obviously not realizing this, he believes that the 'forward seat is developed organically from the normal seat'. He also believes that it is impossible to maintain the Forward Seat "by balance alone" - which is precisely what beginners learning the Forward Seat are required to do by many American riding teachers. The Germans, who have apparently never discovered how easy this is when properly taught, make a strong point of the fixed knee, *and teach that the rider should raise himself above the saddle not from the stirrups but "from the knees"*. Although I know a few excellent riders who ride with pinched knees, *such a seat used by the majority would be quite disastrous, both from the view of security and that of softness.*" - The Development of Modern Riding, VS Littauer

$0.01 plus shipping from Amazon, and a great read on dressage, its origin, how the forward seat developed and why he believes folks now do it wrong...from someone in the Show Jumping Hall of Fame.

He includes long quotes from old texts, such as the English rider who recommended you get a horse to go forward by having your footman tie an "angry cat" to the end of a long pole, and lowering on the horse's backside anytime the horse balked. He also discusses, near the end of his life, some unusual ideas on training. For example, he sees little value in teaching the shoulder-in, likes having a green horse canter on the wrong lead, and says no stirrup work does more harm than good.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

This is a picture from Oliver at a jog, maybe a month under saddle, first ride with a bit.










My trainer is riding him, which is how there is a picture! (no one with a camera is ever around to take pictures of me riding and I never think to ask). His rear is somewhat reaching under but, his head is still higher than what would be natural for him when not under saddle and I know he reaches even more underneath now. You can see that he is fighting against my trainer's hands.

Initially, my trainer/friend was telling me to ask him to lower his head. Being me and sassy as I am, I told him that I preferred to see if Oliver would find it on his own (Oh the trials and tribulations of teaching adult experienced riders!). 

It goes back to the whole concept that I hold to of “Manana” and that the horse is always right (does what best benefits him). 

If he isn’t collecting naturally, then I’m not creating the proper conditions for him to go there. He’s not wrong and in need of correction, I am. 

Instead of artificially asking/creating a position, we rode, waited and rode some more. My hands and legs got quieter, my seat got more solid, we got to know how each of us moves and became more comfortable together. He began to relax. Looking back at that picture, he was still very tense.

Then, like magic, one day, a few months later, there it was, and the difference in feel was night and day. He found it and now when we go he is in what western riders call “self-carriage”. I had gotten out of his way. 

Somehow the concept of “collection” and “self-carriage” have become interchangeable; they didn’t used to be at least from my experiences years ago and my brief encounter one summer years ago, riding English on the East Coast. 

In perusing articles that might be useful on this thread I found myself “Pffff-ing” at some of the titles such as “Teaching self-carriage”; mostly written in the English riding perspective. 

I’m sorry if anyone finds this insulting it is meant as an observation, while “self-carriage” and “collection” might be referring to similar positions in the horse, the underlying concepts of how you obtain each are somewhat different.

The whole concept of self-carriage, at least the way I was initially taught years ago in western, is that it is a natural (as in not taught) balanced, highly efficient (meaning it makes the horse less tired and not something that is only maintained temporarily) comfortable, proper way of movement for the horse.

They seek it not because we ask but, because it benefits them when the rider is quiet and balanced. If they are not finding it on their own then IMO, there could be several reasons for that from expecting an artificial position that conflicts with conformation, to rider position, to health or tack issues.

IME one does not “teach” self-carriage, the rider gets out of the horse’s way with a secure seat and quietness and allows it to happen!


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## bsms

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:​


Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> ...It goes back to the whole concept that I hold to of “Manana” and that the horse is always right (does what best benefits him).
> 
> If he isn’t collecting naturally, then I’m not creating the proper conditions for him to go there. He’s not wrong and in need of correction, I am...
> 
> ...They seek it not because we ask but, because it benefits them when the rider is quiet and balanced....
> 
> IME one does not “teach” self-carriage, the rider gets out of the horse’s way with a secure seat and quietness and allows it to happen!


"*If he isn’t collecting naturally, then I’m not creating the proper conditions for him to go there. He’s not wrong and in need of correction, I am...*"

Of course, my problem is that I am often interfering, or failing to create the proper conditions. But the answer is found in fixing me, to the extent I can be fixed. Fixing ME will be a life-long journey. Bandit and I both have physical issues, but I cannot help him without first fixing me. Only then can I allow him to get better. I'm the roadblock!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Sometimes though, getting caught up in all of the mental details of equitation are as much of a roadblock as anything. Supposedly, what is considered correct equitation evolved from the way to best move with the horse. Therefore, assuming that is a correct assumption, it would be a function of logic that by moving correctly with your horse, you will attain correct equitation. 

My logic is why not start there, move with your horse through feel and feel alone. Forget the should and ride through feel. If you are listening, they will tell you if you are succeeding or failing by whether or not they move freely and relaxed and naturally.


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## horseluvr2524

@Reiningcatsanddogs

Much of what you are saying is right in line with what I managed to understand reading some of Jean-Luc Cornille's articles last night. Forget what they taught you, ride by feel, get out of the horse's way.

Thinking back on the few lessons I had with my latest trainer, I realize that much of what she was trying to teach me also falls in line with this.

My thinking after years of different trainers and methods: "Do this, do that, fix it, fix it, fix it!" This resulted in me having 'busy hands' and 'disco dancing' in the saddle, as my trainer called it. One time she yelled at me 'stop disco dancing! She's perfect when you sit still!" Shan responded so well to me just getting out of her way. Then we had to solve the 'leaning on the bit' problem. In reality I think we both leaned on each other, and I can't wait to get back and start riding again, get out of Shan's way, and not be something that she leans on!
(I miss my horse and riding so much! Currently out of state, going back in December XD oh well, lots of time to read horse stuff and think about it)

There was one time out on a trail ride that I think we had some kind of self-carriage. We started going up a hill, Shan wanted to rush up. I said no, please walk. Going uphill, with the light contact I had, it was not possible for her to lean into my hands. As a result I felt that powerful rush of energy and movement coming up to 'meet the bit' as some dressage riders might say. It truly was an incredible feeling. 

My goal when I do get back will be to work (bad term, more like work less so as to get out of her way) on helping her produce impulsion and self-carriage. This will entail more sitting still, quiet hands, decently long rein, no leaning on the bit, but also not letting her drag her head and hooves on the ground doing that old horse grandma walk lol.

I remember a long while back @gottatrot posted a thread about how the position of the horse's head has nothing to do with collection, or something like that. At first, I was on the bandwagon with everyone else, defending collection and long and low and all things dressage holy. I had just come across some 'traditional' dressage techniques and discovered long and low, and since they seemed to be working for me and my horse I defended it. Then one of our lovely people on the dressage bandwagon posted that "horses do round their backs, they proved it in a study on cats." Kid you not. Totally serious, that is what they said. I don't remember who it was but I wish that I could thank them for showing me the door off that bandwagon. I certainly do not want to be part of a group of people that thinks a study on cats proves anything about a horse.

Honestly, I think riding shouldn't be as hard as everyone makes it. Its really not. The happiest times I've had on a horse was when I was riding by feel. I think its time I get back to that.
@bsms

I also do not understand the whole knee pinching and heavy hands thing either. Not only did I find trying to post with my knees uncomfortable, it was also counterproductive. I had one dressage trainer who taught heavy hands. Shan hated it and we didn't stay with her for too long.


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## tinyliny

the horse cannot always 'find' these things on there own. not when they have a history of some kind of riding against which they have built a mental defense system. they are mentally all about finding that position that protects them the best, or doing the action that most kept them out of trouble in the past. 

these horses may need to have some work with the bit that can look somewhat forcefull, becasue you have to do what it takes to show them another way. and, you have to let them figure it out, otherwise they dont' really learn.

so, you have to put them in a bit of a bind, say, for a hrose that has a habit of bracing, you take up just enough contact that he goes into his bracing reaction, but you stay with him . you don't allow that behavior to ever work for him, but you dont' force him to change. he will have to figure out how to get himself out of that bind. 

eventually, he realizes that there IS an easier way, and the bracing life that he's carried for years, and has made him feel miserable about being ridden, is not necessary.

It required more than just getting out of his way, though.

yesterday I rode my friends horse. this horse has some kind of issue in her hind that makes cantering under saddle hard. she crow hop/canters. I had no intention of cantering her, (I'd surely fall off), but when I was working her, and asking for her to trot, she would speed off, through up her head, and start to pin her ears and even 'think' about reaching around to bit my foot. at first I thought it was becasue she felt I was putting on mtoo much leg. but, later, after a bit, I realizedx she was worried I was going to ask her to canter. 

so, I just shushed her verbally gave a little tiny upward snap of the rein (to address the bad stink eye expression), gave my inside hand forward, so she could see my indicating to let go of that backward thought and go forward, and kept posting. after about 4 times of this, she started to accept having a looser rein, and not worry about the canter. it wasn't great, but I interrrupted her assumption of trouble and all ended well.


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## bsms

Harry Chamberlin argued that horses need gymnastic training to develop as an athlete. It is a fundamental difference between Chamberlin / Littauer and largely the English approach to riding, and the western style I think works better.

Bracing? Bandit would brace his back and create tension in his neck. My response was to remember what my Mom told me - it takes two to fight. A horse cannot brace against what is not there.

Could someone like Chamberlin or Littauer or any top rider get better results faster? Probably. But if the horse is bracing, what is he bracing against?

The theory of dressage is the rider holds the horse together - a phrase I've actually seen - until the horse feels good about being held together and then starts to hold himself together. That may well work in the hands of a genius, but almost no recreational rider will pull it off. I sure as heck cannot, nor do I see any reason to try.

That doesn't mean a horse never needs to push past his comfort zone. The question, I think, is this: _Does the rider control the horse until the horse figures the new balance or motion out, or does the rider give the horse increasing challenges that require the horse to push beyond what he already knows?_

I don't think one rider in 100 knows enough about how a horse SHOULD move to even think about improving his movement by taking control. But anyone can gradually increase the difficulty of what one asks, and let the horse figure out the movement.

The following is a long quote, but a good one:
-------------------------------------------------------------

*I firmly believe that so long as the horse is not a soulless machine, so long as he enjoys mental faculties permitting him to receive impressions in all parts of his being more quickly than we can apply the aids deduced from our calculations, his training by the hard and fast rules of mathematics will ever remain the idle dream of a Utopian.*

*I am convinced that the main requisites of training are: to observe the horse at liberty, to reflect, and to strive to perfect one's self rather than to blame the horse's unwillingness or imperfections...*

...To observe and to reflect, these are the rider's surest means of success.

Unfortunately for him, we all to often blame the horse, and generally wrongly...The fault is nearly always with the rider...

The rider must reduce his actions to the very minimum and leave the horse the greatest possible freedom in his.

To be understood readily and quickly by the horse, the language of the aids must be the simplest, but in scientific theories it is rarely so, and the lessons are as difficult to give as to take. Training thus becomes as boring to the rider as to the horse...

It is calmness, and nothing else, that converts disordered jerky gaits into smooth, flowing ones. Here is a very important phase of training in which there must be no struggle. A teacher must first get the confidence of his pupil, and then reveal the presence of kindness, gentleness and a will, that though calm, is inflexible. This is the immutable and sovereign law of teaching, whether the pupil is man or beast.

To others more skillful, I leave the doctrine of violence. I have not the strength to practice it even if I wished...A spoiled horse, made stubborn by harsh treatment, sometimes has a bad disposition - an unbroken horse, never...

...Everyone who has watched horses move in open country at liberty, or under riders making no effort to balance them, or even when used as pack animals, is amazed at their cleverness and skill. A horse ridden in a halter or with nothing at all on his head is always straight and his gaits are regular. Usually it is otherwise when the rider attempts to guide of balance him....

*...The truth is that skill may rectify gaits which have been spoiled by man and become habitual with a horse controlled by the rider's aids; but it was obedience to these aids that ruined the gaits...*

...the horse carries our weight [the rider's] and his own, which, together change the balance and the horse therefor instinctively feels, much more accurately than we do, HOW and WHEN the formula should be modified. That is why the horse must be left free to dispose his forces (strength) as he sees fit, so as to obtain the results that we are seeking.

Horse Training Outdoors and High School by Etienne Beudant (1931)


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

tinyliny said:


> the horse cannot always 'find' these things on there own. not when they have a history of some kind of riding against which they have built a mental defense system. they are mentally all about finding that position that protects them the best, or doing the action that most kept them out of trouble in the past.


Let me clarify. I wasn’t assuming a horse with other issues that need work prior to working on collection. I am assuming a horse that rides nicely and is already open to learning; no major hang ups.


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## gottatrot

> (*@Bsms*)He said loose reins were for a beginning rider, constant contact marked an intermediate rider, and putting a horse on the bit marked an expert rider. I think every horse should learn to deal with near constant contact for short periods, for those times when things are tight and you need to be very directive. But I also think relying on constant contact indicates a poorly trained horse.


So many good thoughts in these posts.

Honestly, I don't care for the term collection anymore. What I'd like to strive for is a horse that has self balance or independent balance. This requires the nearly endless (with some horses) struggle of discovering how to get out of the horse's way so they can learn to use their own athletic ability and balance. This can be so much more difficult for some horses than others.

I'd say some horses are naturally very athletic but have a difficult balance point with a rider, so it takes a lot of skill to allow the horse to be so athletic and still stay out of their way. So sometimes horses that need more frequent contact (I agree that constant contact is a training problem) are not as naturally balanced and need some assistance from the rider. Hopefully they can attain more balance as they work on developing their bodies. 

From what I've found, the most independently balanced horses are the ones that can be ridden on the most loose rein. Of course most horses are ridden on a loose rein at the walk, but you can see as the horse and rider pick up speed and transition through gaits, if the independent balance is not there things fall apart on a loose rein. 

In general, a horse that can be very athletic on a loose rein is a very balanced horse. But some unskilled riders have very balanced horses, and stay out of the way just enough. But the horses could do far more athletic things with a good rider. 

I agree some horses have a mental defense, and often these can come from the horse having a difficult time due to physical issues or a rider that does not compensate for balance issues. It is amazing to me how quickly a horse will accept a better way of going as the problems are fixed. 

I am wondering if what happens in disciplines that require constant contact is that the rider creates a balance problem for the horse which requires assistance from the rider. The so called ring of muscles and feeling that the motion is going back and forth between the rider and the horse is the horse's body falling out of position and the rider using the leverage of the reins to help the horse stop falling and use his muscles to stay in position. 

A few horses can learn how to achieve that desired position by balancing on their own, over time and are praised for having self carriage. More horses only develop taut muscles and joint problems by trying to find positions they are unable to sustain due to their skeletal balance with a rider.

What I often come back to is that true collection seen naturally is a state that is brought on by excitement or fear and does not last for long. Throw a new horse in a herd of Arabs and you'll see them bouncing all over the place with their necks arched over. It requires a lot of muscle strength and excitement and lasts very briefly. Physical balance is different and is something horses can sustain for long periods of time and will only help their bodies and never harm them.


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## tinyliny

the horse moving out across wild open country will really be moving out. that isn't always the most comfortable horse to ride.

but even more uncomfortable is a hrose trying to move like that, and a rider holding the rein tight, so that the horse falls even harder on the forehand. if the rein weren't there, he might pick up his own head and move more balanced. but, that trot could still be kind of rough on the rider.

sure, a lot of riding is about making the ride more comfortable for the rider.


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## bsms

Honesty requires I point out that while I really like some of what Etienne Beudant wrote, he also used methods I find disgusting - although he restricted their use to an expert horseman.

That then brings up an important point. I write about the part of the horse world I experience - a long term owner with no interest in competing. The horse world is very fragmented. I cannot imagine buying a horse so I can spend two years moving up to level X, then selling him because I'll need a different horse to take me to level Y. I also am not in any way a pro, and a professional trainer is required to get good results fast.

Cowboy was miserable to ride when he came here. But he's the third horse. We didn't need to ride him often. And after a few years of being ridden rarely and only on trails, most of his bad habits disappeared. Bandit arrived using his left front leg at a 40 degree angle. I didn't improve that, other than I took his shoes off and rode him on pavement until I observed it. What straightened it out? A good farrier doing the trimming, and plenty of walking - mostly the walking he does in the corral. Unridden. Remove the source of the problem, and the horse recovered. Slowly. It took 6 months to see a better wear angle (about 10 degrees now), and another 6 months for his chest to broaden - as much as it will, although he remains a very narrow horse. If I were a trainer, and someone brought me Bandit and wanted me to straighten him out before the show season started in 6 weeks...????? No idea.

We set artificial goals - the horse must move like X. We impose human time restraints. We often judge movement in an unnatural way - WP being a prime example, and saying we now BREED horses to move like that compounds the error! We now even breed horses for highly artificial goals, without any understanding of the underlying motion or mechanics.

And then we want a pro to get results in 6 weeks. Or we want trainers to do it in a few days, in an arena. Even more bizarrely, we then take what they do in that highly artificial situation, and say that is ideal training!

I showed this picture once, and was immediately told how hollow Trooper was, inverted, stiff, awkward, unbalanced - apparently just 850 lbs of dog food on the hoof:








​ 
Just look at his face? It isn't vertical, or even close! The horse is uncontrolled!

But the truth is my daughter would not have been able to stay on him lie that if he was stiff, awkward and unbalanced. She isn't that good a rider. And he did about 4 laps like that, no reins, then slowed when she wanted to slow - so he obviously was NOT out of control. It is just that Trooper was controlling himself in response to my daughter's desires - something he will do often enough with her, and almost never with me.

The other day, when Bandit & I did a stopped to canter transition...I don't have a clue how to cue for that, other than to encourage the horse to go fast. He really likes cantering in a straight line. He also seemed excited to just be able to canter short distances without anything negative happening to his mouth (my guess at the root change). But I don't know the proper way to cue him to canter. I just kiss, or give a squeeze and we go - sometimes on the wrong lead.

That "wrong lead" is where a better rider could teach Bandit how to move better than I can teach him. A good rider could train him to be capable of either lead, and how to know which his rider wanted. 

"_the horse cannot always 'find' these things on there own. not when they have a history of some kind of riding against which they have built a mental defense system._"- @tinyliny

Bandit's difficulties with a right lead (vs left) is something he probably won't find on his own. I could help him find it. Some round pen or lunge work to help him, some time spent working on his flexibility so he becomes physically comfortable cantering in a right turn - even at my level, I could do that. I probably won't, because my goal is for him to be able to canter mostly straight on trails where 1/4 mile of cantering is a long canter. Maybe longer, if I can get him good enough with the ups, downs and avoiding rocks across the trail.

If I lived in a place where we could canter a lot, it would be worth my time to work more with him. If he gets to liking arena time, then maybe I'll work with him anyways. But that reflects laziness on my part. And I agree with tinyliny - Bandit is not going to find his right lead without help.

But even then, most of what I would do would involve working him in increasing circles, working on doing some circles "straight", and working him unridden in a right canter until he would pick up the lead on his own. Maybe a skilled rider could hold him together thru a right turn until he was comfortable enough to canter to the right well. Maybe. I surely could not, so I would simply work on physical challenges - mostly turns to the right, and hills - until Bandit had the flexibility to canter well to the right. Heck, if I had a big arena, I could canter him to the right now - and then slowly decrease the size of the circle. But I would still rely on the advice of Etienne Beudant:
.I am convinced that the main requisites of training are: to observe the horse at liberty, to reflect, and to strive to perfect one's self rather than to blame the horse's unwillingness or imperfections...

...The truth is that skill may rectify gaits which have been spoiled by man and become habitual with a horse controlled by the rider's aids; but it was obedience to these aids that ruined the gaits...

...the horse carries our weight [the rider's] and his own, which, together change the balance and the horse therefor instinctively feels, much more accurately than we do, HOW and WHEN the formula should be modified. That is why the horse must be left free to dispose his forces (strength) as he sees fit, so as to obtain the results that we are seeking.​


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## bsms

gottatrot said:


> ...Honestly, I don't care for the term collection anymore. What I'd like to strive for is a horse that has self balance or independent balance. This requires the nearly endless (with some horses) struggle of discovering how to get out of the horse's way so they can learn to use their own athletic ability and balance. This can be so much more difficult for some horses than others...
> 
> ...I am wondering if what happens in disciplines that require constant contact is that the rider creates a balance problem for the horse which requires assistance from the rider. The so called ring of muscles and feeling that the motion is going back and forth between the rider and the horse is the horse's body falling out of position and the rider using the leverage of the reins to help the horse stop falling and use his muscles to stay in position...


Based on what riding manuals say, I fear it has more to do with the rider believing a horse cannot balance himself. I find this instruction from the USDF mind-boggling:

_"The inside rein should guide the horse into the turn, the rider’s inside leg, close to the girth, causing the horse’s inside hind leg to reach further forward. The outside rein should yield just enough to allow the horse to flex to the inside, while at the same time it restrains the horse from falling out over the outside shoulder. The outside leg should control the quarters...The rider should ‘straighten’ the horse with the outside rein, keep the horse exactly on the line of the circle._ "

I mean, really - the REIN "_restrains the horse from falling out over the outside shoulder_"? YGBSM! We should straighten a horse with the reins? Have you ever tried to straighten a horse with reins? It can't be done. The reins don't control a horse that way!

Some western riders use a leather strap running from the chest to the nose. I don't remember the name. But they say a horse can balance himself better if he can brace his neck against that strap. Could that be a part of constant contact - giving the horse something to brace against? Because when I started riding Bandit, he often seemed to balance better if he could brace against the bit...although I doubt he liked the feel. And for my part, I usually refused to give it to him.

But I really think constant contact is rooted in two things. 1 - the desire for control. 2 - the NEED for constant communication in arena competition. I don't think many horses could win a competition based on self-carriage.

BTW - the quote I made from the lady about keeping the horse between the driving aids and restraining aids? The USDF recommends it (and many others):

L Education Program


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

bsms said:


> Some western riders use a leather strap running from the chest to the nose. I don't remember the name. But they say a horse can balance himself better if he can brace his neck against that strap. Could that be a part of constant contact - giving the horse something to brace against? Because when I started riding Bandit, he often seemed to balance better if he could brace against the bit...although I doubt he liked the feel. And for my part, I usually refused to give it to him.


I think what you are referring to is called a training fork in western also a tie down or martingale. I like the term "Training" fork because at least it insinuates that it is temporary.....


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## egrogan

Something's going on with Isabel that I can't quite figure out right now- she's sore somewhere in her body but she's not telling me where. It's just a feeling you get when you look at her- she looks crabby and defensive when she knows you're going to touch her. 

I haven't been riding her because of that, but it was very warm yesterday so I thought if part of her discomfort was arthritis stiffness from cold weather, she might be comfortable moving around on a sunny, 60*F day. I had no real expectations for our ride- just a stroll around the property at whatever speed she felt comfortable.



gottatrot said:


> From what I've found, the most independently balanced horses are the ones that can be ridden on the most loose rein. Of course most horses are ridden on a loose rein at the walk, but you can see as the horse and rider pick up speed and transition through gaits, if the independent balance is not there things fall apart on a loose rein....In general, a horse that can be very athletic on a loose rein is a very balanced horse.


Isabel came to me absolutely expecting her rider to hold her together. If you did not have very firm, tight contact when asking for a canter, she would literally stumble into the circle and risk falling over. When I first started free leasing her, we took a few lessons with a dressage pro, and I didn't know enough to question why I was even asking her to canter if she was so unbalanced (and she was not a young, green horse- she was 18 with all the basics). 

Neither she nor I are particularly athletic- and we are both very out of shape right now. Still, we have come along enough that she asks to stretch her neck to a nice long rein and maintains decent rhythm at a trot.



tinyliny said:


> she would speed off, through up her head, and start to pin her ears...I realized she was worried I was going to ask her to canter.


I have ridden that canter depart! She is so defensive about it, particularly when riding in the arena. I guess I've been her only rider long enough at this point to have to accept that the problem is me somehow, though I don't know how I've created this anxiety in her. She does not react this way out on the trails- in fact, when she gets to our "canter spot" on the trail, she enthusiastically asks for it. And I do give her the choice- I ask her "want a canter?" and she will or she won't.



Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> IME one does not “teach” self-carriage, the rider gets out of the horse’s way with a secure seat and quietness and allows it to happen!


Though I don't think I would have this language had I not read your explanation, in my mind this is what I've been trying to do with teh trot/canter transition over the last few weeks that I've been stuck riding in the arena (long backstory, but basically trail access got cut off by developers so I'm moving barns this weekend). Since I can now ask Izzy to move freely and (seemingly) happily on a long, comfortable rein in the arena, I have focused on being like a tiny fly on her back, as still and quiet as I can be without interfering with her movement. If I can get her moving freely and relaxed at the trot, I might think of asking her to canter when she has that less anxious state of mind. But because of the lack of balance, I haven't yet figured out to help her through teh trot/canter transition without a lot of contact, and as soon as I pick up the contact, her mind flips back to anxious/defensive. She'll make the transition, she doesn't fight it or buck or crowhop or anything- but she worries about it. So now to figure out what it is about my body that changes the feeling of security and balance to worry and defensiveness...

We didn't even try to canter yesterday, as I know she's not 100% comfortable right now. We mostly walked, doing lots of loopy serpentines, going over poles, walking through the fields. We trotted a little just to warm up in the ring, but out in the pasture she preferred to walk.

We're moving to a new barn this weekend. It feels like a fresh start. I'll have access to a new set of professionals (farriers, chiro, vet) and get their opinion on this tricky body soreness. We'll have a new arena with no old associations, and lots of new open space to explore. I'll be going into this experience slowly bringing her back into shape, at first with lots of walking and a little trotting, and building up to other work. 

But it will be nice to keep these big ideas in mind while doing that...stay out of her way...help her find her own balance...work through the old defensiveness to get to a more comfortable place... Feels exciting!


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> Based on what riding manuals say, I fear it has more to do with* the rider believing a horse cannot balance himself*....
> 
> But I really think constant contact is rooted in two things. 1 - the desire for control. 2 - the NEED for constant communication in arena competition. I don't think many horses could win a competition based on self-carriage.


Yes, this is key. We are taught that the horse needs us for balance. This is important to me. I've been at that crossroads where the horse is unbalanced and because of what I'd been taught about the principles of riding, I believed the horse needed me at that point to become more involved. Now I believe that is the point where the rider needs to help the horse develop more athleticism without resorting to trying to balance the horse with rein and leg aids. 

I am still learning this, remembering the first couple of times I focused on just getting out of the horse's way and wondering over how good it felt. It seemed the horse was moving so freely, so balanced, and was no longer struggling with transitions. This contradicted everything I believed, especially that I needed to keep the horse traveling in a manner that did not appear "inverted." 

Our competitions don't celebrate the horse, they celebrate the games and rules we've devised to satisfy our need for competition. I'm not saying competition is wrong, it is very natural for us. But we put most of the pressure of the performance on the horse, with little regard for how this affects him.


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## tinyliny

bsms

when they say 'rein' in that quote from the dressage manual, they mean the hand/rein, meaning the effect of the rein . 

the rein asks the hrose to position his head, and if well trained, it asks the horse to think in that direction. by so doing, the horse prepares himself for movement that way, which should result in all the actions described there in the hind end. 

but, if the horse is not really soft to that rein, not really thinking and connected to the leading rein, then you are only pushing a heavy braced horse around with your outside leg and rein.


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## bsms

It is similar to when manuals say we need to create impulsion with our leg. What they should say is we ask for impulsion with our leg, or cue the horse to do X or Y. It isn't just semantics. There is a reason I say Bandit and I are going to go for a ride, instead of saying I'm going for a ride. It is a different mindset. One is the automatic language of a rider-centric, rider-control approach. The other is the language of a team.

If one asks, one understands the horse must be trained, consent and do. But the language of much of our riding assumes the rider is all important - we cause, we prevent. *We control. We make things happen*:

"_the rider’s inside leg, close to the girth, causing the horse’s inside hind leg to reach further forward. The outside rein should yield just enough to allow the horse to flex to the inside, while at the same time it restrains the horse from falling out_"

But we don't. We ask. And we TRAIN a horse to not "fall out", unless we are interested in "body control" and assume a well trained horse WILL fall out unless we restrain him with the rein. And maybe he WILL fall out, if he has never been taught the judgment to control himself.

Some years back, when Trooper would do a circle with his nose tipped out, the trainer we hired said to use the inside rein to tip his nose in, carefully, not too much. So I did, and it worked. Sort of.

When Bandit did the same thing (and he still does sometimes), I shifted MY weight to the outside, and then he didn't need to tip his nose. As his balance got better, he largely stopped doing it...except we rarely practice those things any more. But his nose tipped out didn't mean he was thinking toward the outside, although that is what I was told at the time. It really reflected Trooper's attempt to balance, and maybe reflected my tendency to pull him into the inside with MY weight.

What I had done with Trooper - what I was taught to do - was try to control his balance, rather than control mine and let him find his own. What I have been trying to do with Bandit, during our rare times in the arena, has been a fundamentally different approach.


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## bsms

This is a saddle fitting geek post, in response to a comment in an article posted here. Since it has lots of pictures and doesn't really involve anything directly in gottatrot's journal, I moved it from here:

http://www.horseforum.com/member-journals/why-i-gotta-trot-645777/page24/#post9550169

One thing I don't understand in the article cited is the part about forward girth grooves. She wrote:

" _Forward girth grooves. You see along with those well sprung rib cages and laid back shoulders comes a very forward girth groove. If you draw a line straight up from this mares normal girth groove you would be on top of her neck almost. Surely we can’t put a saddle there can we? Do you see how forward this mare’s natural girth spot is from where the billets would join in? In a traditional billet system the saddle would be pulled forward on the mares shoulders no matter how well fitting the saddle was otherwise. Girths always travel to the smallest circumference I don’t care how many “anti-slip” pads you use._"

Three backs: purebred Arabian mare, 1/2 Arabian gelding and 3/4 Arabian-1/4 Appy:








​ 
The purebred mare and Bandit's white purebred Arabian sire:








​ 
Bandit's half-Arabian back:








​ 
With the exception of the stallion, who I don't own, they all fit a "J" western saddle tree best:

"_J - Semi-Quarter Horse (Semi)/Arabian (Arab) - Steeper front and rear rafter angle and closer-spaced bars relative to Standard Quarter Horse fit when positioned at standard spread. In addition, sufficient bow (rocker) enables this fit to conform well to the short Arabian back having a narrow wither dropping off quickly to the shoulder._"

Steele has a different tree that also fits a lot of Arabians:

"_AW- Full Wither (FW)/Arabian (Arab) - Flared out front and rear to allow for full or mutton wither with no pockets. The resulting bow enables this fit to conform well to the short Arabian back having wide withers rounding out into the shoulder. The AW has also been found to work for more dipped-back draft horses._"

And to complicate it further, this is the tree that Steele used to make for Circle Y "Arabian saddles" (no longer, but quite a few years ago):

"_D- Standard Quarter Horse (SQ) - Approximate 92º front rafter angle. Good front flare, bow and upturned tails to avoid bridging and bar edge pressure points_."

Bandit's back is flat enough that he might benefit from a custom saddle tree. I was adding a pad in the front to take out some of the rock of my saddle tree. I stopped, but I may go back to it:








​ 
My Australian saddle normally sits with the girth angled forward (on Mia):








​ 
I think that was true of my English one, too:








​ 
The Nikkels argue it is completely acceptable with western saddles for the cinch to be angled forward. They argue:

"...*it is the tree that determines the proper position of a saddle, not the rigging position.*"

Saddle fit - Western compared to English Part 3

They argue using a full forward rigging on a western saddle, in order to achieve a vertical cinch, harms the horse because it prevents the shoulder from being able to slide underneath. My western saddle is rigged 7/8, and I wish it was 3/4. Maybe even a little further back. I angle my cinch anyways on all of my western saddles...

But none of my Arabian horses have been the full withered type. Mine have all ended up needing narrower trees, not wider ones. They all have A-frame backs. I also wonder if having smooth leather on the bottom on an English saddle makes it more prone to sliding forward. But what I really think is that the girth/cinch should go where it results in the smallest circumference, while the saddle goes to where the shape best fits the horse. If that creates an angle, so be it.


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## gottatrot

Saddle fitting nerd stuff is interesting, I wouldn't have minded having it posted on my journal either. 

I agree that it can be irrelevant whether the girth goes straight down or forward into the girth groove, as long as the saddle fits. However, until you've had the extra wide horse with the tiny girth groove problem you might not understand that in some cases this is simply impossible.

Here is a photo of Amore:








This is the first horse I learned about saddle fitting on, and it was an extremely challenging task. Notice her very tiny girth groove just behind her legs. That's fine, just put the saddle a little farther back behind the withers and let the girth go forward into that groove. 

Except this is impossible. See where the belly gets round just behind the girth groove? From the front view you would see that this tiny horse balloons outward at that point and it is many inches larger in circumference than the part of her body where the girth groove is. If you put the girth forward, it always pulls the saddle forward to that area that is so much narrower around. That happens regardless of whether you use curved, anatomical girths, and no matter if the tree fits that area behind just perfectly.

I'll also mention it's just a physics problem and happened when I used well fitting western saddles also, unless the cinch came out of the front of the saddle so it could go straight down into her girth groove. 

This is the only thing that works:








A dressage saddle with a very wide tree sits down over the wide barrel, and it has the billet points coming out of the very front of the saddle. This way the girth tightens in the girth groove while still hanging straight down. The saddle has to have a straight flap or it interferes with her shoulder. Plus due to the tiny girth groove, she has to have a flat mohair girth so it doesn't rub against her leg when she moves. 
Another shot:








Compare this to Halla who also has a forward girth groove and big shoulders which make her saddle fit tricky...but far easier than Amore because her circumference does not change much along her barrel and I can put the girth anywhere and have a well fitted saddle stay in place.


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## bsms

gottatrot said:


> ...Here is a photo of Amore:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...If you put the girth forward, it always pulls the saddle forward to that area that is so much narrower around. That happens regardless of whether you use curved, anatomical girths, and no matter if the tree fits that area behind just perfectly.


This still puzzles me. I'm not saying it is wrong, just that I have a hard time conceptualizing it. I can understand how the girth would migrate and thus loosen the girth, but I don't understand how it "pulls" the saddle forward. 

I could probably understand it with an English saddle. They are pretty slick on the bottom. In the picture of Mia in an English saddle, you can see I went with a grippy girth to counter the slickness of the saddle. And I'm not convinced that flocking really conforms to the horse's back as well as wool felt and a good fitting wood tree.

And again, this may reflect my own experience with two Bates saddles, and not having owned a horse who is downhill, or who doesn't have pretty big shoulders to resist the saddle's movement. But if a western tree really conforms to the back, then it has a lot of stability. That is why the Nikkels say a good fitting saddle, even on a beer barrel QH, should allow a cowboy to rope cattle and pull them without needing a breast collar, and often without needing a rear cinch. That steer generates a lot more "pull" than ANY cinch or girth!

Finding a good match in a western saddle can be tough because we cannot see under the completed saddle. I figure if the saddle stays very stable when mounting with a loose cinch (or without one), and if it stays stable when going up and down hills, then it is a good fit. If it doesn't, I suspect the saddle doesn't fit as well as we believe.

That is why I really liked the Steele "Fit to Be Seen" program. For a couple hundred dollars, I could try multiple forms on my horses and see - easily - which ones conform best. I think when I mounted Mia without a cinch, from the ground, I was sold on what good saddle fit can do. But Circle Y, for example, normally gives you a choice of 2 instead of 10: medium or wide. Abetta doesn't even tell you what saddle tree size they use. There is no standard, but a Billy Cook seems to come in "QH" or "Full QH" - and any individual model normally comes in one or the other.

A study done in New Mexico, looking at (IIRC) over 125 saddles, concluded over 50% were a poor fit for the horse. Yet their riders all thought their saddles fit.

I would LOVE to see a good study done on western saddle fit. Although I also suspect folks like the Nikkels and Steele already have a good idea. The Nikkels use 8 variations unless a horse has some very special need. Steele has 10. But if you buy a saddle online or on Craigslist, you MIGHT be able to find out if it is "medium" or "wide". I think that borders on obscene.

Would something like that work with Amore? Beats me, and if you don't like western saddle - and I truly understand why someone might not - then there is no reason to try to find out. I'd love one of the saddles from the Arabian Saddle Co, but I'll probably stick to western. I'm really tempted to try the Steele fitting stuff with Bandit. I wonder if this one, or a slight variation of it, would fit Bandit better:

"*NE* - Straight-Back Quarter (SBQ) - Similar flare and rafter angle to the 'D' fit with much less bow. Developed for straighter backed, well collected horses. Also works well for mules that require a flatter front rafter than the 'SE'."

Bandit is flatter than Mia. But he does well enough in Mia's saddle that my wife MIGHT object to spending another $1200-1500 for a saddle for him. Maybe if I could sell the Clinton Anderson FQH bars saddle first...:icon_rolleyes:

PS - With Bandit's slab sides and level back, I can darn near put the saddle anywhere on it and it stays in place. He's very slender, but saddles don't seem to move much on him. Trooper is also very forgiving. Cowboy is trickier, mostly because his shoulders blend with his body and he has a short back - being 13.0 hands will do that to ya!


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## phantomhorse13

bsms said:


> ​
> Bandit's half-Arabian back:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​


That grey has a forward girth groove. Bandit does not. Where the girth groove is varies by individual horse, not by breed. Of the 4 arabs we have, only 1 has a forward girth groove.




bsms said:


> But what I really think is that the girth/cinch should go where it results in the smallest circumference, while the saddle goes to where the shape best fits the horse. If that creates an angle, so be it.


And you may get away with that, depending on what you are doing with the horse and for how long. However, having the girth angled that way changes the way the tree functions on your horse. While it may not result in the saddle coming forward noticeably, it does modify the way the tree distributes pressure as it changes where the deepest part of the seat is. It can also cause issue with girth rubs, as the girth runs forward and contacts the back of the front legs.

I learned more than I ever wanted to know about this subject when trying to find a girth to suit Phin. He has a forward girth groove, a wide back (just shy of an extra wide as a matter of fact), an well-sprung ribs. Not the best picture as he is looking at the camera, but you get the idea:











You can see how the billets would direct the girth to be just behind the non-clipped hair under his belly, but his ribcage pushes a straight-cut girth forward, leaving it angled. The saddle fitter warned me about it. He also explained how riding with an angled girth changes the dynamics of the saddle by altering where the rider's weight lands in the seat. I rode the saddle that way to start with as I did not relish having to buy a bunch of new girths. It seemed fine on training rides. In fact, it seemed fine until I went over 35 mountainous miles.. at which point Phin started getting girthy. He finished the 50 mile ride, but he had obvious swelling on both sides of his girth when we were done and the next day he was slightly back sore along his loin. That pesky change in dynamics the fitter warned me about!

Then began my mad search for a girth that would allow the tree to work as it should. I sure didn't want to have to buy a new saddle (one with center fire rigging) if I could help it. I tried different girth materials with varying levels of success and then tried various shapes.. I finally found what he needed in a contour /shoulder relief girth that had quite a bend to it:











While it still didn't make the billets 100% vertical, it was darn close and certainly a huge improvement over the straight-cut models:











I wound up moving the billets from the 2nd and 3rd attachment points as seen in that photo to the first and second points (if you look very hard, you can just make out the 1st attachment point about an inch to the left of the 2nd one). That resulted in the billets hanging vertically and the saddle tree no longer being distorted, as shown by the chapstick test (or in this case, the aerosol can test, as the saddle cover doesn't allow something as small as chapstick to roll freely :wink:











And what a difference it made! Phin finished his next 50 mile ride without a hint of issue with either his girth or his back, before during or after the ride.


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## bsms

"The saddle fitter warned me about it. He also explained how riding with an angled girth changes the dynamics of the saddle by altering where the rider's weight lands in the seat." - @phantomhorse13

That makes no sense to me. However:

"That resulted in the billets hanging vertically and the saddle tree no longer being distorted, as shown by the chapstick test (or in this case, the aerosol can test, as the saddle cover doesn't allow something as small as chapstick to roll freely :wink:" - @phantomhorse13

That may provide a good clue. An English tree is a lot more likely to be distorted by angled pressure than a western one - which is designed, after all, to have a steer slam its weight against the horn!

This looks like the tree could be twisted with modest pressure:










This would take a heck of a lot of pressure to twist:


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## phantomhorse13

bsms said:


> "The saddle fitter warned me about it. He also explained how riding with an angled girth changes the dynamics of the saddle by altering where the rider's weight lands in the seat." - @*phantomhorse13*
> 
> That makes no sense to me. However:
> 
> This looks like the tree could be twisted with modest pressure


It's not about twisting, it's about force and the angle it's applied. A treed saddle should not allow much if any twisting movement, but instead move as a whole unit.

Assuming a saddle is built and fit correctly, the tree will sit in such a way that the force/pull from the girth goes straight up and down, and the rider's weight will therefore hit the seat of the saddle squarely, and apply pressure in a straight downward direction. This allows the best distribution of force/weight over the entire tree without pressure points.

the big arrow shows the force applied by the girth, the smaller arrow the resulting weight of the rider:











Notice that this angle allows the weight of the rider to be balanced over the widest part of the seat, where the widest part of the panels are underneath. Because those panels are being pushed straight down, they do the best job at evenly applying the force along the whole of the saddle.

But look what happens when the girth is angled forward:










So now a couple different things may happen. Depending on the conformation of the horse, the saddle may try to creep forward, as the pressure is making the front of the tree points lift. It's also creating a pressure point at the back of the tree point, whether the saddle moves forward or not. The saddle balance changes to match that girth pressure, meaning the rider weight is no longer pushing straight down, but instead the rider is rocked back into their butt (riding "on the pockets" so to speak). This increases the pressure on the back of the seat, therefore increasing the pressure towards the back of the panels.

The same thing will happen with a western saddle too, but I would think the broader tree and skirting helps mitigate that compared to an english saddle. I would still suspect that riding that way long term even in a western saddle would not do the horse any favors.

As a side note, roping a cow - assuming the cow was in front of the horse - actually would do the opposite: it would rock the saddle forward onto the front of the tree, creating pressure points on the front. I suspect if you were to ride your horse backwards always attached to a cow in this fashion, you would soon have a very sore horse!


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## bsms

"the big arrow shows the force applied by the girth, the smaller arrow the resulting weight of the rider:"

For goodness sakes, why? Do riders tighten the girth with greater force (100+ lbs) than the rider?

Nor would angling the girth forward do anything to the rider's weight - or its vector.

If the girth is angled forward 15 degrees, it would create a forward vector roughly 25% of whatever the total tightening force would be. Unless the seat was distorted, the rider's weight would still be down.

The rider's weight would no more lift the points with an angled girth than a vertical one. The angled girth doesn't lift the points. All it does is add a small forward vector in addition to the downward one (which would still be over 90% of the original, and much less than the rider). The simplest test would be to sit in the saddle without the girth, and see how it responds and balances.

With a western saddle, the Nikkels experience mirrors what I've seen:

"However, when you put the rigging forward, it pulls the front of the bars down tighter, making it far more likely to impede the shoulder blades from slipping under the front bar tip, so you can actually cause saddle fit problems by doing this."

Saddle fit - Western compared to English Part 3

I can go out and replicate that using the variable rigging design of our Circle Y saddle, which allows rigging from 3/4 to full.


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## tinyliny

@phantomhorse13 what kind of saddle is that? I sure like the looks of it.


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## bsms

Since I'm very unfamiliar with point billets and English saddles, here is a picture:










"If your saddle slides forward, it could mean that you need a point billet attached to the tree. A point billet holds the head of the tree (aka, the gullet plate) in place. This keeps the front of the tree from lifting off the back, which in turn keeps the saddle from sliding forward."

https://totalsaddlefit.com/2014/04/billet-design/






I confess it still confuses me, but that may be due to my not having a horse and saddle where it matters.


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## tinyliny

rode in a reactor panel saddle once, . . hated it!


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## gottatrot

I'd have to think more about the idea of the girth position affecting how the rider's seat goes. Not sure yet if I'd agree with the theory.

I'd agree that many horses' saddles don't fit. It is an odd thing I've found, that there are many horses with body types that will hold a saddle in place even if it doesn't fit particularly well, and these horses might suffer more often from an ill fitting saddle. For instance, many Thoroughbreds have high withers, big shoulders, and barrels that are fairly flat between shoulder and flank. 

This could never happen to Amore, it's physically impossible. To get the girth all the way back to her flank, it would have to be hanging loosely under her belly after saddling. If you tied a string around the neck of a light bulb, you could never slide it back over the wider part.









This rider's leg is on the girth, and you can hardly see her calf past Amore's wide barrel.









With those A frame, slab sided types, nearly any saddle will stay in place and some people only concern themselves with clearing the withers and spine. So the horses often end up with sore backs due to poor fit. Horses like Amore don't usually get ridden in ill fitting saddles because the saddle just won't stay in place unless it fits. 

Many horses have shoulder muscling that sticks out wider than their barrel. If a horse has a flat shoulder that ties into the barrel with no definition, and no real withers, the saddle tree might fit perfectly on the barrel, but there's no real difference between the barrel and the shoulder so it can migrate forward. The only thing that keeps it in the right place is the fact that a cinch attaches it under the belly. Amore could bend her neck down and shrug her saddles off over her neck if she wanted to. 

Look at this shoulder:








Versus this shoulder:









You can see how a big, wide barrel might push a saddle forward onto those flat shoulders in the first pic if the cinch is not angled straight down. And why a saddle stays in place nicely behind the big shoulders in the second photo.


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## phantomhorse13

bsms said:


> "the big arrow shows the force applied by the girth, the smaller arrow the resulting weight of the rider:"
> 
> For goodness sakes, why? Do riders tighten the girth with greater force (100+ lbs) than the rider?
> 
> Nor would angling the girth forward do anything to the rider's weight - or its vector.
> 
> If the girth is angled forward 15 degrees, it would create a forward vector roughly 25% of whatever the total tightening force would be. Unless the seat was distorted, the rider's weight would still be down.
> 
> I can go out and replicate that using the variable rigging design of our Circle Y saddle, which allows rigging from 3/4 to full.


The size of the arrows was simply the first two I found on the internet and their size has nothing to do with anything. 

The girth tightness is a constant (and while I do think some people overtighten their girths, that is not as issue for me personally), so I do think it potentially has more influence on saddle position than the rider (who in theory can move around to correct their balance).

The seat position changes slightly when the girth angle changes (at least with the english saddles I had around here to use to do the chapstick test on). Its subtle, but there. And that change can cause problems over time with what I do with our horses.




tinyliny said:


> @*phantomhorse13* what kind of saddle is that? I sure like the looks of it.


It's a Rubicon, which is made by Lovatt & Rickets under the brand Arabian Saddle Company.




bsms said:


> Since I'm very unfamiliar with point billets and English saddles, here is a picture:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "If your saddle slides forward, it could mean that you need a point billet attached to the tree. A point billet holds the head of the tree (aka, the gullet plate) in place. This keeps the front of the tree from lifting off the back, which in turn keeps the saddle from sliding forward."


That is exactly what I said in an earlier post. Using a point billet will make the girth attach more vertically.

I really like the billets in this saddle, but that setup is not yet the norm for english saddles (though maybe is becoming more popular with dressage saddles, which only benefits the horse). Most saddles will have 2 or 3 fixed billets and you just have to deal with them in the position they are.

I think this page written by an english saddle fitter, does a good job illustrating this topic.


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## bsms

It is all very interesting to me, and confusing at the same time. I suspect a lot of us Craigslist riders get away with a lot simply because we don't do anything very demanding. My horses are ridden no more than 10 hours a week, and the vast majority of times more like 5. We do lots of walking, some trotting and an occasional canter. The only demanding times are when we go up or down something steep. Or a spook. Those probably test a saddle, but only for a few seconds.

I rode Mia for a year in a FQHB Martin. As best I could tell, she loved it. I think, for her, the big thing was it kept pressure away from her spine - WAY away, being too wide for her. But that was all it took to make her happy. I really liked it too - except for when it slipped onto her side during one of her spins. There is a lot I dislike about my riding, but I'm still proud of the fact that when her saddle slipped all the way on her side, with the saddle horn poking out parallel to the ground, I stayed on TOP of Mia. I had to be doing something right that day!

I've thought about buying a flocked Wintec for Bandit. My Aussie saddle doesn't fit him as well as I'd like. I don't know if there is someone in Tucson who could reflock my cheap Aussie, or who could do reflocking on an English saddle if I bought one. I really like the looks of some of the Arabian Saddle Co saddles...but doubt my wife would approve spending $2500+ for a backup saddle. But a Wintec might pass, and if the fit wasn't perfect...for a saddle ridden a few hours a week, tops? MY rump and legs like the feel of an English saddle.

But I don't know. Happily, a horse built like this is an easy fit:








​ 
This chubby little fellow is tougher. But our Abetta stays steady on him and he never shows signs of objecting, so I guess I should count my blessings. I've never read any saddle fitters discussing how rolls of fat along the ribs help hold a saddle in place... Darn good little horse, though!








​


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## phantomhorse13

bsms said:


> It is all very interesting to me, and confusing at the same time. I suspect a lot of us Craigslist riders get away with a lot simply because we don't do anything very demanding. My horses are ridden no more than 10 hours a week, and the vast majority of times more like 5. We do lots of walking, some trotting and an occasional canter. The only demanding times are when we go up or down something steep. Or a spook. Those probably test a saddle, but only for a few seconds.
> 
> I don't know if there is someone in Tucson who could reflock my cheap Aussie, or who could do reflocking on an English saddle if I bought one.


I think the first part is very true for a lot of things. My sneakers do just fine on my feet for what I do with them - the most running I do is to play with the dog for 10 minutes. Would those same shoes work for a marathon? I would imagine not.

I bet there are saddle fitters somewhere local enough to you to make the search worthwhile.. even having to drive a little bit to get that saddle to them would sure be cheaper than a new saddle!


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## knightrider

Every great once in awhile, I pull out my old Equus magazines and look at old articles. It's fun to look at the old advertisements and see what was once popular. I was looking at August 1988 Equus, and came across an article called, "And THAT'S What Changed the Way I Work With Horses . . . " Among the experts interviewed, Robert Miller told about his veterinary work in his younger days, when they manhandled horses to restrain them. "'But I began to realize that he [his assistant] made already gentle horses defensive with his techniques of restraint.' In effect, the horses were being put into a position where they felt obligated to fight the people who were working with them." "'Then one day, I decided this was a bunch of baloney. I simply threw out everything I had been taught about restraint.' In place of the wrestle-them-into-submission approach, Miller turned to horse psychology, devising techniques that seemed to have a natural calming effect."

Lendon Gray's a-ha! moment came when she was working with Olympic caliber trainers who were pushing her and her horses to be ready on a certain time schedule. "'I found myself pushing my horses physically and mentally. I let my coaches make me do things that I knew weren't right because they were high-muck-a-mucks, who surely knew more than I. My horses were injured while working under these coaches. I never would have done that on my own. I let myself be dictated to by the schedules.' It was her horses' training-induced injuries and a nagging internal voice repeating,'That wasn't fair to the horses, these very, very generous creatures that finally convinced Gray to reject competition-oriented training and return to the 'if it happens, fine' school of scheduling."

And my favorite: Matthew Mackay-Smith "There's riding, as in horse bearing the burden of his passenger, and then there's riding, as in the fluid physical communication between partners in an equestrian dance. Mackay-Smith tells of a OTTB that he was attempting to rehabilitate without success. "I had heard about 'riding' and I knew people like my friend achieved some effects that were different from the effects I achieved. I heard them say if you do these things in a certain way, you will get certain effects because that is where the horse's controls are, but I just flat didn't believe it because I had tried, I thought, and got nothing but a little aggravation, a little head tossing." He continued to struggle to rehabilitate the horse, although his friend could get amazing things from it. Mackay-Smith says, "I realized that you can't do it by brute strength. You have to find a sensitivity. Horses are more responsive to subtlety than coercion." The magazine ends the story by saying, "He likens the sensation to dancing with a truly compatible partner. 'Riding is not anything mechanical. It's got everything to do with attitudes and relationships and mutual understanding and respect and nothing to do with where you put your hands and your feet. If you dance with your horse, you don't have to pay any attention to where you put your hands and your feet. You don't even know ahead of time where you're going to put your hands and feet. Instead, it's willing your center of mass in such a way that your horses's center of mass gets the message. Riding wasn't just something you do to the horse. but something the horse and you do together." 

Written 18 years ago, and we are just finally figuring it out!


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## bsms

We've had weeks of incredible winds. We normally get this for 4-5 weeks in the spring, but we've had winds of 25+ and gusts up to 50 for weeks now. So I've only ridden a couple of times.

The last time I rode was the day after my son expanded our little arena, by removing about 5-6 feet along part of the eastern side, filling in a sink hole, removing some large rocks, etc. It lengthens and slightly widens the usable area, from about 70 feet long to 110 feet long. Still small, but not quite a round pen any more.

But I knew Bandit would be pretty upset about the new look, and I took a whip along with me for my ride. The good news is that I didn't need it. He was NOT happy, but he went. Without using a whip. Sometimes at a 45 degree angle, but he went. He eventually calmed and relaxed, but it took about 30 minutes of work. Yes, he can prance quite well at a walk. Or trot.

The whip was me feeling impatient. I'm still very goal oriented. I can understand why people use them. It is very hard to be patient and let the horse tell you "No". But I'm not proud that I took the whip, and it is gone now. I really think my wife is right. I need to remember *"So what?"* So what if we take longer, or I sometimes need to dismount and explain? So what? Why would I whip a horse for being uncomfortable, and just how do I expect whipping him to increase his comfort? Or trust? And why DO I ride? :frown_color:

"'_I found myself pushing my horses physically and mentally. I let my coaches make me do things that I knew weren't right because they were high-muck-a-mucks, who surely knew more than I._" quoted by @*knightrider* 

I don't like to admit it, but I do the same thing. I don't compete...or do I?

The culture of riding and riders is really pretty ugly. "*Ask, Tell, Demand*" is nearly universal. "*Ask, Encourage, Explain*" makes a rider a weirdo, and it sure takes longer than "Whip harder!" And people REALLY believe that we teach horses how to move! They really believe that we improve their movement! How can anyone watch horses running and playing without a rider, and think, "I could teach that horse how to canter better"?!?!?!?!?!

I know I can get in my horse's way, but I'll be darned if I know how I can improve his agility and balance by holding him together, or blocking his shoulder, or seeking a near vertical face.

But yeah, I took a whip with me on my last ride. Doesn't say much good about me...:evil:


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## tinyliny

dont feel too bad. I always have something that can function as a whip with me. usually, it's the tail end of the lead rope. the point being that I did not have the energy to enter ( end complete) the discussion of "who will decide where we are going today"). so, I over and undered X when he baulked. something I said I was not going to do. 


he WENT. 
I WON. '


was it awful? was it him losing all trust in me? was it a step backward?

I don't think so. he just bucked once. . . .and went my way. 

both methods work. the horse is adaptable. nothing is THE way. nothing is THE WAY to NOT do things. horses are adapable. and, . . 


forgiving.


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## Bondre

I take a whip with me on nearly every ride, partly because my right hand feels weird without it but also because it can be a useful item. Both Duna and Macarena are happy with its presence and respond to it when I use it. Of course, I don't hit them with it. No!

I use it often with Duna to touch her shoulder and remind her to keep straight when she's trying to drift sideways. I use it on Macarena to drive the flies and midges away - I can wave it between her ears with impunity because she knows it's a fly-whisk. It's also useful for rubbing her lower belly when she halts and starts contorsioning to try and reach an itchy spot. 

On the handful of occasions when I've tried using the whip as originally intended, it's always backfired on me. I've written in my journal about Macarena'a offended reaction on one occasion when I whacked her butt. I tried it with Duna once when I was feeling very frustrated about her not wanting to take one single step away from home. She bucked - the only time she's ever bucked. I didn't bother using the whip again. We all make mistakes, but the important thing is not to repeat them. 

I'm sure your intention with Bandit wasn't to hit him with the whip, was it? Perhaps you would have tapped him if necessary, just to remind him not to be silly, but that's no different to tapping him with your heels or tweaking the reins. JMHO.


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## bsms

^^^ Interesting, and I thank you for your perspectives, @*tinyliny* and @*Bondre* .

I was prepared to smack him on the side with it. I'm glad I didn't need to in order to keep him moving. And he initially moved at a 45 degree angle, so he was feeling some tension.

He really dislikes dealing with life when life serves up something that just looks different. I don't know as that he is deeply scared, but he gets genuinely tense. The question then becomes how to deal with it. I wonder if a smack of the whip against my leg would help. Mia treated that as meaning "_Hey, I'm serious about this!_" OTOH, he is getting better about trying when asked with a little nudge...it is just a graaaduual better.

Maybe it would be OK to take a whip, and sometimes tell him to knock off the silliness and focus.

Riding horses is sometimes like raising kids. You want to do what is right, but don't know what "right" is. At least, I never batted much over 50% on my good days. My son is actually a much better Dad to his kids than I ever was.

Winds today are currently 30 with gusts to 35 mph. Tomorrow is supposed to be more of the same. I am sick of wind! You shouldn't need the strap on the helmet to keep the helmet from blowing off one's noggin! The horses are huddled together with their butts to the wind. It really doesn't seem fair to Bandit, or to me, to go ride when neither of us would take any pleasure in it. Makes me glad I don't work on a local ranch and need to ride in this anyways.

When I was visiting the ranch in June, one of the sons told me about the previous winter. They had the sheep in a sinkhole area where the cold gathered. Mornings were 30 below and he'd need to tack up, mount up and ride. He said one of his brothers is an excellent rider, very good with horses and fond of riding challenging horses, but that he and his Dad both ride horses mainly because they need to ride them. They like the horses, and respect them, but he said too many 14 hour days and too many days of riding while bitterly cold or in heavy winds took the fun out of it. He had covered uncounted thousands of miles on horseback, but had a hard time thinking of it as "fun".


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## tinyliny

I would never have under and overed X if he was baulking out of fear. never. he was baulking at the very beginning of our ride, just after I had mounted up and pointed him to the trail. he wanted to kill the ride and go home. that is just spoiled obstinance. 
in your case, such a sudden and severe response might not help.

I would try slapping your leg noisily, while asking him to turn and move in the direction you want to go. if he jumps, you just go back to quietly asking again.

also, when I say I over and undered X, I did it on his shoulders, not his hind end. he is more reactive and likely to buck if I do it on his flanks.


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## Hondo

I agree very much with @tinyliny to never never punish a horse in fear. And most things I've seen called sillyness is fear. Fear that we perceive as silly which is not to the horse.

@Bondre uses a whip as I understand it is to be used. As a simple non threatening communication tool.

One reason I will never take a whip is that I don't trust myself when frustrated. And frustrated I do become.

On another note, I am happy to report just returning from a very successful first of ponying Rimmey with Dragon following along. Three horses and I really enjoyed it. Pretty rocky ride and Dragon trimmed his feet a little. Both Hondo and Rimmey were barefoot and neither were looking for easier footing. May be because of the rain softening up the surface a little.


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## gottatrot

Agree with @tinyliny, horses are very forgiving. If we could only train them if we never did anything wrong, I'd have been out a very long time ago. 

I'm with @Hondo in that I don't bring a whip because I don't trust myself. But I don't think it's always wrong to use one. It is wrong to punish fear or misunderstanding. If I had any context where the whip might be useful and I felt I could use it intelligently and without emotion, I would bring one. I brought one when I had to ride through fields of loose horses, because sometimes they would want to start pestering the horse I was riding, and I would use it to wave them off. 

But I have seen some really big, bulky horses that are just questioning if they really have to go exercise, why not just stay in the field and eat? 
It's going to be good for them to go out, and the rider is some 70 lb skinny, short kid whose legs don't really mean much. There are horses that are good hearted enough to just go, but there are some where you give the kid a crop with a little flat smacker on the end, and if the kid can't produce any movement from the horse (who is well trained and compliant with adults), then you teach them how to cue with the seat and legs once, and then give a smack on the rump if there is no response. Then the horse sighs and rumbles into a walk. I don't think that's wrong. :smile:

If you can say with certainty you can see why the horse is refusing, and it's not fear, pain or injustice, then I don't think it's wrong to give a smack.

To me that is the context of how @tinyliny used her cues too.


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## bsms

50 degrees and overcast isn't normally my idea of great riding weather - but zero winds, after several weeks of wind, wind, WIND - and the forecast is for 25-30 mph winds this afternoon.

So Bandit and I got in a short ride. He obviously has decided the newly expanded arena is completely safe. I'll never know, but I wonder - if I had used a whip on him last time, how would he have been today? Calmer, the same, or more nervous? We did a few straight line canters, then stop to grab a mouthful of dried grass. We did one full 360+, using the corners - it feels much bigger and lets him relax in a canter along the long sides. We still have some good sized rocks to rake out, but it is going to be nice.

Took a short stroll by ourselves down the street. Didn't go far. But he stayed relaxed, even when I started singing "_We are so blessed_". My singing...well, I understand how it could make a horse nervous. It would probably annoy the neighbors, too, but none of them were out in their yards. Bandit doesn't care when I hit a wrong note, or a bunch of wrong notes, or sing "Duh-duh-duh" because I can't remember the words...

Ended early because I was a little bored and a little cold. Even in my heavy sweatshirt. Folks in my neighborhood start to bundle up when it drops below 80.

I had the whip with me, but I'm inclined to agree with @*Hondo* : "*And most things I've seen called sillyness is fear. Fear that we perceive as silly which is not to the horse.*"

Bandit sometimes gets stubborn, and that is different. He'll buck a little, or get an angry, stiff pace and be resentful. But that is rare, not even once a month. He usually resists leaving the arena to go out alone, but I think he still views a walk in the neighborhood like being on a war patrol, and who can feel relaxed when they are on point, by themselves, in a war zone? But he does leave with just a little squeeze of the legs.

*I call it silly, but I don't think it feels at all silly to Bandit*. It costs me nothing to leave the whip hanging around the horn, but I'm not certain I ought to use it. I've got a temper and I'm very goal-oriented, and could see myself misusing it a lot more than using it right.

But...it felt good to be riding again, even if only 30 minutes.

Oh...and before the ride, Bandit was entertaining himself by picking up the 40 gallon feed buckets and tossing them around. He needed to get out. We now have three 100 gallon rubber buckets for the hay, which is letting us feed them hay in moderate winds. I'm going to buy Bandit one of those balls they can toss.








​


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## phantomhorse13

bsms said:


> I'm going to buy Bandit one of those balls they can toss.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​


Don't be surprised when he wants nothing to do with it.

Our horses - Phin in particular - find great delight in messing with anything they can get their teeth on normally (saddle pads on the fence drying, the wheelbarrow or fork if i am cleaning, the hose when the tank is filling, etc). Heck, I intentionally went to the dollar store and bought a bunch of pinwheels and flags and other flappy things to help with Phin's distrust of mailbox decorations.. and they didn't last 24 hours.

I decided to buy a couple jolly balls, figuring that would give him something to play with that wasn't destroyed within hours. I tossed one into each paddock. And if it wasn't for me pushing them aside when I mow, they would still be sitting in the Same Exact Spots. The horses pointedly ignore them. Go figure!!


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## bsms

I had one once before. It sat unused for months, and then someone (Mia?) slung it about 50 yards from the corral. But they are not expensive, and Bandit likes to move the buckets - including the 100 gallon ones - at night. If there is ANY chance he'll play with it instead of making me listen as he drags a 100 gallon Rubbermaid bucket around the corral at 2 AM...:-?


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## Hondo

I posted a video over in saddle fitting which seemed to be the best place. But I posted it mostly for you @bsms and since I've decided you're not going to see it there, I'll post the link here.

I just thought it was a really good visual confirmation of the charts you posted showing the movement in the horse's vertebrae. It just looks so strange to see Hondo rump going all over the place with the camera image remaining so still.

http://www.horseforum.com/saddle-fitting-issues/horses-movement-saddle-fit-area-736433/


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## bsms

Well, THAT'S a perspective one doesn't see often! Certainly shows the side to side motion.

I like this video. Apart from being funny, it gives a good view of how a horse's back moves in slow motion at the 20-30 second mark. It moves, but it really doesn't flex much (rounding) under the saddle area. Of course, the horse is moving fast then. Being a geek, I downloaded it and then watched it in extra-slow motion. I'd love to find a video of a trained horse moving collected without a saddle in slow motion...


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## Hondo

I'm wondering what training techniques were used to train the horse to do that. Treats or flooding?


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## egrogan

What about this @bsms- I'm certainly no training expert, but I know several members here think highly of this straightness training website.

Collection on the longe line

The website has a series of still shots, and this is the video embedded there, not slo mo but I guess you could geek out and slow it down:





Similarly:





Ok, back to work....no more oogling the pretty horses...though I do love a gorgeous dapple grey...


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## Bondre

bsms said:


> I'd love to find a video of a trained horse moving collected without a saddle in slow motion...


Something like this one of Klaus Hempfling? (ignore all the sentimental nose-rubbing and retouched still shots)


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## bsms

OK, I'm going to geek/nerd out here. From the third video, which I downloaded in its best definition and then ran in very slow motion, with screenshots of the horse at rest (top), on the down stroke of a collected pace (middle), and the top of a collected pace (bottom):








​ 
What I see is a back that sags a little on the down beat, but that doesn't exceed the standing position during the upbeat. And all three have a pretty stable back, in terms of back shape in the saddle area. I'll take another geek-look when I have more time.


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## gottatrot

I think that the natural purpose for collection is the same as when a snake coils to strike or a cat crouches to spring. It is getting ready to use the kinetic energy of the muscles for explosivity. I believe the shortening and rounding we feel is related to the muscles. Those long shoulder and back muscles that run underneath the saddle - if shortened/flexed they get larger just as our bicep gets larger when we flex it. As you flex the bicep it gets rounder and lifts, but the bone underneath does not change at all or get shorter. The distance between the elbow and shoulder do not change at all. 

But muscles are far different from a spine. The concepts of using the spine so it does not get injured, of helping it round up so it is stronger underneath the rider like an arch, all of this is irrelevant if the changes are related to muscle movement. If the hindquarters and shoulders and legs are what move and flex to create bend, collection and extension, that is important to know. As @bsms has pointed out, we need to know if we are trying to influence the spine or if we are trying to influence the legs of the horse. 

This is important to me because if you believe that one way of using the horse creates a strong back and teaches the horse to move properly, and that another way of using the horse might be damaging or detrimental, it affects what you do with the horse. People say, "Of course you don't ride a horse collected on the trail." But if you read all the theories about how these things affect the horse, you feel that you may be damaging the horse by allowing him to run around "hollowed out" all the time, if the horse has a naturally high neck set (see my avatar). Believing these things can make a rider feel they need to keep going back to the arena and working on "roundness." Which I am learning is something we don't need to worry about. We need to think about balance and relaxation and the ability to perform athletic movements. These things create a strong back.


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## knightrider

Don't mean to change the subject, but my neighbor bought a jolly ball for his horse, and the horse played with it constantly, so much that he wrecked it, and he bought another one. The horse plays with everything he can find.


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## egrogan

knightrider said:


> Don't mean to change the subject, but my neighbor bought a jolly ball for his horse, and the horse played with it constantly, so much that he wrecked it, and he bought another one. The horse plays with everything he can find.


I have never seen a horse care about one. In fact, I think there's one laying in the back corner of my mare's new field and she's not even looked in its direction. I would be so curious to see research on what makes some horses "playful" and others not at all.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

egrogan said:


> I have never seen a horse care about one. In fact, I think there's one laying in the back corner of my mare's new field and she's not even looked in its direction. I would be so curious to see research on what makes some horses "playful" and others not at all.



Young Geldings. We have a Jolly ball and the horses that play with it are the two youngest males (5yrs and 18 mo); they are still mouthy. Keeps them from destroying the rubber feed pans. They are also the two that play with the dogs. Everyone else ignores the dogs and the ball. Curmudgeons!


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## bsms

Trooper & Cowboy both ignore Bandit as best they can. 

Rode him yesterday. He was a PITA the entire ride. He resists taking a lead for a right canter. When he got it wrong yesterday, he tried bucking. I realize he felt awkward and probably uncomfortable, and would not have cared if he dropped to a trot, but I REALLY dislike him bucking in protest. Had the whip with me, hanging on the saddle horn, but was too busy to think of using it to say "This is completely unacceptable to me!"

He got pushy later when I went to feed them, so he was chased all around the corral while the other 2 stayed out of the way. If anything, they may have enjoyed watching me get after Bandit. He's a different horse than Mia - much more likely to tell his rider to go to H E Double L. When he gets ****y, it usually isn't pain or fear. Just attitude.

Days like yesterday are when I think about selling him and looking for a young Arabian mare, preferably unbroke...not fun at all. It could be breeding, or how he was ridden before I got him. I'm pretty sure once a horse learns a bad habit, they never entirely forget it...and Bandit has some bad habits. Just a discouraging ride.


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## Hondo

I have always wondered about all the playful horse stuff I've read. Then Dragon the 5yo gelding was added to Hondo and Rimmey in the 60 acre field.

He will leave nothing untouched and examined. Unless he's eating, it's hard to sit and relax in a chair when he's around. As bad as any attention seeking dog I've ever had. 

When I read about the ball I decided he definitely needed one.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

bsms said:


> He got pushy later when I went to feed them, so he was chased all around the corral while the other 2 stayed out of the way. If anything, they may have enjoyed watching me get after Bandit. He's a different horse than Mia - much more likely to tell his rider to go to H E Double L. When he gets ****y, it usually isn't pain or fear. Just attitude.
> 
> Days like yesterday are when I think about selling him and looking for a young Arabian mare, preferably unbroke...not fun at all. It could be breeding, or how he was ridden before I got him. I'm pretty sure once a horse learns a bad habit, they never entirely forget it...and Bandit has some bad habits. Just a discouraging ride.


I like a slightly sassy horse. Not mean or sneaky, just one who tells me what they are thinking. That's the thing with encouraging honesty/opinions, sometimes you get told something you don't like to hear! 

That doesn't mean though that I can't also tell them what I think of their opinion. NO BUCKING! Find another way to express yourself!

Oliver will also routinely tell a rider to go to hell and it ain't pretty. Still trying to figure out why he hasn't done it to me.....yet. All I have are educated guesses.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Here’s a funny adage to the horse not forgetting what they have learned. I was doing some work yesterday clearing some overgrown brush away from the fence line of the new paddock. I was singing and Old Ghost (30 yrs? Old) was standing next to me while I worked, just chilling out (who says that some horses don't prefer human companionship?). The song I was singing was:

Just hear those sleigh bells jingling,
Ring-ting-tingling too,
Come on, it's lovely weather
For a sleigh ride together with you,
Outside the snow is falling
And friends are calling, "YOO HOO !",
Come on, it's lovely weather
For a sleigh ride together with you.
*Giddy up, giddy up, giddy up,
Let's go*...let's look at the show,
We're riding in a wonderland of snow.
Giddy up, giddy up, giddy up,
It's grand... just holding your hand,
We're riding along with a song
Of a wintry fairy land.

When I got to the _Giddy up, giddy up, giddy up let’s go_, Ghosts head shot up and he looked at me….

Old words I have never used with him but, obviously someone had….funny creatures with long memories.


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## bsms

Bandit usually is pretty good. His previous owner told me he was normally a pretty willing horse, but would never be a "kid's horse" because of the times when he'd "get feisty". Without sheepkin, in a slick saddle that is a bit too big for me, I'd have problems. As it is, I don't worry about coming off....just get annoyed.

The Arabian mares I've owned really liked having things explained to them, but both were very willing once they heard the explanation. Mia got scared and would lose her mind at times, but there wasn't a mean bone in her body. Her intentions were always honorable. Not her actions, but her intentions were always good. Don't know if it is his mustang half or what, but Bandit will probably always have some "_Who the heck are you!_" in him. I don't mind that, by itself, but the crow-hopping nonsense gets very old very fast. Just not interested. Toss your head if you wish. Stiffen your back and your gait if you wish. But don't drop your head and try to buck...don't like that at all!

What it may mean is that I need to learn to ride Bandit like Bandit and not like Mia. People got mad at Clinton Anderson when he said Titan was sometimes like an adolescent boy who needed to get his butt kicked at times. I understood it...not that I ever hit my teen son, but I can certainly understand that some horses may be more inclined to say no, and need a rider who will get pushy back. Mia never needed a harsh hand. She was confused sometimes, but never pushy. Bandit gets pushy and may need me to act in ways I'd rather not act.

Don't know. Wish I knew. It was the same with my kids. I tried to do right, but often didn't know what "right" was...

Note: I loved the "Ghost Story", but they only have a like button.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Pushy, is Oliver and the boards in my riding area are proof (it's why we use tensile wire fencing everywhere else). My husband's reference for him is "your bull". As in "guess what your bull of a horse did this time?". The upside is nothing can stop him when he puts his mind to something. The downside is that nothing can stop him when he puts his mind to something!

Is there any chance that Bandit might have been gelded late? Paired with his confidence and his stallion habits, Oliver has some very studdish tendencies, one of which is getting pushy. If you give him an inch, he'll take a mile. In short if you don't catch the thought when it occurs to him and shut it down immediately, as my trainer said "he gets really strong, really fast". 

Wondering if that might be part of Bandit's attitude.

Just so you know how strong and pushy they can get. Oliver has snapped several 2x8’s in half not by kicking, by pushing. The way our arena is set up, it is part of our pasture area and makes up a fourth “dry lot” area which we used at feeding time to separate out the old horses who get more feed from the younger ones who will chase them off of it. A little fence never stops Oliver. He’s even broken 6” wood fence posts set four feet deep in concrete. Bull is an apt name for him.


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## tinyliny

now you've got me singing that song! you put an 'earworm' in my head.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Sorry! The cure for an ear worm is to actually listen to the song. Merry Christmas!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Wonder if this is a mouthy gelding?


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## jaydee

bsms said:


> Bandit usually is pretty good. His previous owner told me he was normally a pretty willing horse, but would never be a "kid's horse" because of the times when he'd "get feisty". Without sheepkin, in a slick saddle that is a bit too big for me, I'd have problems. As it is, I don't worry about coming off....just get annoyed.
> 
> The Arabian mares I've owned really liked having things explained to them, but both were very willing once they heard the explanation. Mia got scared and would lose her mind at times, but there wasn't a mean bone in her body. Her intentions were always honorable. Not her actions, but her intentions were always good. Don't know if it is his mustang half or what, but Bandit will probably always have some "_Who the heck are you!_" in him. I don't mind that, by itself, but the crow-hopping nonsense gets very old very fast. Just not interested. Toss your head if you wish. Stiffen your back and your gait if you wish. But don't drop your head and try to buck...don't like that at all!
> 
> What it may mean is that I need to learn to ride Bandit like Bandit and not like Mia. People got mad at Clinton Anderson when he said Titan was sometimes like an adolescent boy who needed to get his butt kicked at times. I understood it...not that I ever hit my teen son, but I can certainly understand that some horses may be more inclined to say no, and need a rider who will get pushy back. Mia never needed a harsh hand. She was confused sometimes, but never pushy. Bandit gets pushy and may need me to act in ways I'd rather not act.
> 
> Don't know. Wish I knew. It was the same with my kids. I tried to do right, but often didn't know what "right" was...
> 
> Note: I loved the "Ghost Story", but they only have a like button.


 Honey comes over as pushy and I'll admit she is the bossy type but when she's being resistant to doing something I've never found that getting aggressive with her helps at all, she just gets more resistant because she then over reacts as well - I'm sure her troubles all come down to her being as 'thick as a brick'!!!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I agree with Jaydee, if a horse like Oliver wants to push through a bit, my puny arms and even a bigger bit aren’t going to stop him (he does not have a strong pain reaction either. Seen him double barrel kicked by several mares right to the ribs and he didn’t flinch much less move…ever. Another left over from his breeding days). Smack him with a whip or gab him with spurs, Oliver just laughs at you “Ha! Puny human! You want a piece of this?”. Once he has finally determined you are unworthy to ride him, you will be outta there. 

My goal is to always, each and every ride, prove myself worthy of riding and being with him, not for him to prove to me that he is worthy of being ridden and being with me. I’m not afraid of him and I don’t let him get away with anything and he knows it and no longer tries it. I have never had to hit him though to gain compliance. I respect him as a horse and all of the majesty and power that he is as well as the mental limitations that imposes which I use to my advantage (I may not be stronger but, I am smarter…usually). I am truly humbled by the fact that he lets me on his back at all, each and every time. 

Do you see the difference in the mental approach? Goes against everything taught by Alpha theory but, that mindset worked better with this particular horse (other ways were tried). As hard as it can be, leave all of your ego at the corral gate.

IMO with some horses, you have to get the mind working with you, then you will be allowed to have the body (this is said just like it sounds. The horse chooses, not you). With a horse like this, I believe that you control the mind first, not the feet. Get their head with you first and the feet and attitude come along for the trip.

Okay, another funny, courteousy of my husband….he just walked up after eating lunch and wanted to know what I was working on so intently. I told him about my approach with Oliver, and he was noticeably smirking while drinking his soda.

I said…”What?!” and he said “Our horses are a mirror of ourselves” and walked back into the office. BRAT!

In DH speak, he means the way I deal with Oliver, is exactly the way DH has learned to deal with me! His point; Oliver and I are symbiotic and that’s why we “get” each other. We’re both bulls in a china shop, pushy, obstinate, opinionated, passionate, value freedom to be ourselves and will go to the ends of the earth risking everything for someone or something we deem worthwhile. Get aggressive with us and we will eat you for dinner. Get our minds and the rest of us comes along, willingly.

I’ve just been told that I am my would-be-difficult horse. Not sure if I should be insulted or not! 

PS. Oliver is of indeterminant breeding. Guesses are far ranging; Mustang and Arabian are two of the more common guesses for crosses.


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## tinyliny

better than being told you're the old gray mare.


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## Bondre

bsms said:


> Days like yesterday are when I think about selling him and looking for a young Arabian mare, preferably unbroke...not fun at all. It could be breeding, or how he was ridden before I got him. I'm pretty sure once a horse learns a bad habit, they never entirely forget it...and Bandit has some bad habits. Just a discouraging ride.


I had a "day like yesterday" this afternoon with Macarena. They happen. I'm hoping that it was an isolated incident, just as Bandit's bucking was probably an isolated incident and the fact he was a PITA yesterday probably doesn't mean he'll do the same tomorrow. Or at least that's what we hope. And when I go out to ride tomorrow or the next day, I'll try to not remember today's antics because I can be fairly sure that Macarena won't be thinking of them. 

What happened: (copied from fb) - get the idea?

Ever found yourself looking yearningly at your stable yard just 200m away and wondering how the heck you're going to get back there in one piece? 
I took Macarena out for a little walk on the lead this afternoon. It was a food tour, first the broccoli and then the lettuce field. She was full of energy so maybe it wasn't a great idea. In the lettuces she managed to wind the drip-irrigation pipes round a hind leg and she freaked a bit, but allowed me to unwrap her, and then we decided it was time to go. 
About halfway home my friendly mare suddenly turned into a stressed stallion - for no apparent reason. She started to do the Spanish Prance, complete with levades and even a corvette. We advanced with difficulty. I concentrated on trying to keep a semblance of control, avoiding flying hooves, not getting flattened, and keeping my footing in the slippery mud. 
Meanwhile my husband arrived on the scene. 
"She looks like a stallion!"
(I know she does)
"She's doing the Spanish Walk"
(I wish she wasn't)
"You're going to come to grief with her one of these days"
(That's what I'm trying to avoid)

I've rarely been so pleased to shut my horse safely away. 😩


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## Hondo

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Wonder if this is a mouthy gelding?
> 
> Horse playing piano - YouTube


That looks exactly like Dragon's upper lip. Guaranteed if there was a piano he could get to he'd be playing it. And ripping off the ivory of course.

I think you'r just out to infect the entire forum with that song.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Hondo said:


> That looks exactly like Dragon's upper lip. Guaranteed if there was a piano he could get to he'd be playing it. And ripping off the ivory of course.
> 
> I think you'r just out to infect the entire forum with that song.


Busted. It's a conspiracy. I want everyone to enjoy these next 24 days!


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## bsms

I really appreciate the thoughts and ideas. I went for a run today instead of a ride and let it percolate in my noggin. I used to do that sometimes in the military - when bogged down and confused in the office, go the the gym or hit the road. When I got back to the office, I usually knew what I wanted to do.

Bandit will have a number of good days, then a rotten one. Although I've argued often and loudly that we should ride the mind and then the body is easy...well, darn it! Riding the mind is TOUGH!

And so often, reading or talking to people, they all have "Christmas Card Horses" - flawless, perfect, going from one success to the next! Then I look at my family, my kids, my dogs and horses and my life - and it is NOT all going from one success to another! Sometimes it is 2 steps forward, 3 back, 1 forward, 2 laterally, 3 forward and 2 back. By the time I catch my breath, I don't even know where I"m going!

I'm also pretty thoroughly steeped in the "Get a bigger whip" paradigm. And it is kind of like the old pastor's saying, "_If you pray for patience, God will send you trials..._" God has blessed me with horses who won't just go, "_OK, you're The Big Cheese, I'll do it!_" If my horse never presented me with a problem, I wouldn't have to search for answers. And that search is what has hooked me on horses and riding. If "Kick harder and stay on!" was all it took, riding wouldn't interest me.

Still, it means a lot to have very experienced riders say it is OK to be confused, OK to have rough days, OK to find a horse such that "_I've never found that getting aggressive with her helps at all_" @*jaydee* , that "_Oliver just laughs at you “Ha! Puny human! You want a piece of this?_” @*Reiningcatsanddogs* , and even this all too familiar feeling: "_Ever found yourself looking yearningly at your stable yard just 200m away and wondering how the heck you're going to get back there in one piece?_" @*Bondre* . Mia gave me so many moments of "_A half mile to go, she won't let me dismount, I've got a powder keg between my legs, oh WHY did I take up riding?!_" Yet she was also incredible sweet and giving. [_"She looks like a stallion!" (I know she does)_" - been there, done that, SOOOO many times]

Of course, that is what makes horses...interesting. By the time I got home from my run...slow jog...I knew that whipping Bandit into submission, even if it worked, would destroy the progress we HAVE made. If that is what it takes to win, I don't want to play the game. Maybe some horses are nails. Mine is a screw. Maybe a loose screw. Hitting harder with a hammer won't help. Even if it gets him to go, it won't be the kind of go I want.

It really helps to know I'm not the only one who encounters horses like these. And that I'm not the only one who struggles with what to do...


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

The Lord helps those who help themselves.

Round about the time I turned 35 I had five children (age 15-newborn), six dogs, four cats, a fixer up house, a husband that worked far too much, two kids home schooling and I was recovering from double pneumonia in three of my four lobes (being asthmatic, only because I begged, the doctor didn’t hospitalize me)…not to mention I had mare that hated my guts. She tried to kill me on the ground once. Loved the non-horsey neighbor girl though...

To say that my nerves were frayed beyond belief would be an understatement. I’ve never been a patient person but, like an addict that hits bottom, I had nowhere left to go. I dawned on me that 90% of the stress in my life was a self-imposed pursuit of an unattainable perfection.

Either I could let all the stresses of life kill me, drive me crazy or I could learn to stop trying to control everything and everyone. Perfection, while an admirable goal, is not something I will lament not having reached when the good Lord calls me home. I started letting some things go and found, much to my surprise that not only did my stress start to disappear but, that in some areas where I had been suffocating in mediocrity, I made more progress than I had ever hoped (like patience).

You are not alone. We all have had horses that have “issues” that left us scratching our heads and feeling down. Any horseperson who tells you otherwise either hasn't been around horses much or is suffering from selective memory!

Last night I made Gingerbread cookies and the first batch came out overdone (slightly burnt). The old me would have been really ticked off and ruined the whole mood. Last night though, I shrugged and figured I now had a dozen dog treats. Oh well....at least I made the dogs happy!


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> It really helps to know I'm not the only one who encounters horses like these. And that I'm not the only one who struggles with what to do...


It helps me a lot too. This sharing of information is invaluable. 

Something I always try to think about is that the weather and the time of year can really affect horses. Several days ago when we went out riding, it was the first time out in over a week. Nala was very beside herself. I was still bridling Halla when Nala's rider got on, and they must have circled around behind me twenty times in the couple of minutes while I was adjusting my bridle. I don't think the trip out to the beach was very fun for the rider, and there were lots of circles going on there too. Halla for some reason walked resolutely (probably due to the strong head wind).

The most difficult "moods" I've dealt with in horses were during either the spring when the weather suddenly got nice, and after a spell of bad weather in the winter.

There's something I want to say, but I am not sure how to express it. There's a difference between dominating and beating down a horse, and between giving a horse a good smack. I hope that I am a compassionate rider and slow to reprimand. I agree completely that I don't need to hit a horse except for possibly in the worst of circumstances. Yet I swear, the horse I know named Booker asks for it. When I say "asks for it," I don't mean it like he is bad. I mean, he seems to find some sort of comfort in testing where the boundary line is, and he wants to know where it is. Once he knows, he feels secure and you can feel that he is satisfied and more happy. It seems to make him anxious to not know where the line is. 

That seems strange, and I hope it doesn't seem abusive or unkind. But he will push and push, and his owner says he is looking for his "daily beating." No one ever hurts him, but he will do this on the ground or under saddle until you say "knock it off!" and slap him on the neck or the rump. I don't believe a flat palm smack really hurts to a horse. But it makes a loud noise. And in this case, it is always done without anger, and only because Booker will literally keep goofing off until you do it. This is the same under saddle. He takes the bit in his teeth unless you tell him not to. He will shake his head and cavort around until you give him the slap or a little jab with the knuckle on your fist, and then he settles down and is very happy and obedient.

I'm not saying Bandit is the same, but I am a little curious if somehow he looks for a boundary like Booker does. I would never try this with a horse that is afraid or worked up emotionally, but Booker never is.


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## tinyliny

I can totally see that happening in horses. the loud, "Smarten up!", with a swift, loud smack can do wonders!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Gottatrot, please don't take my comments as that I have never hit a horse with a whip or lead rope. If that is what works best, depending upon the horse and the situation, then by all means, I don't see it as a beat down. Oliver was a special case, the first one in fact where I saw (from watching his response with others) that hitting him or getting aggressive, really was pointless and was more likely to have an opposite affect. 

No problem with either whips or spurs when used prudently. I guess I should have made a point of saying that.


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## bsms

I don't have a problem with some people using whips on some horses. Given my temper, I may not be one of them. To create a loud noise...yes. And about a year ago, Cowboy decided to buck with me. I smacked my leg, he tried even harder, I smacked him a couple of times, and it all ended.

Bandit? I don't think he is looking for boundaries. I think he just gets frustrated at times. Yesterday, he was on a left lead and we needed to turn right. He doesn't know how to switch leads, and we have often just cantered some on the wrong lead. [Note: VS Littauer is the only person I know who actually recommended regularly cantering on the wrong lead with a young or inexperienced horse. He thought we made too much about leads...just an odd historical FWIW!]

But I'm sure it was uncomfortable, and he bucked. Dropping to a trot doesn't bother me. That is an acceptable way to say, "This isn't comfortable. I need to reset." Bucking is NOT an acceptable way, and he had his head jerked up (both to prevent him from getting in solid bucks and a bit of punishment - punishment that is a natural result of his behavior). It didn't get him anything (This will profit you not) and we continued. But he was ****y from the start, so we had a few more episodes that sprang out of the first one, probably. And he got the same result - did not work, did not get him anything he wanted, and we continued on.

Given how little he has been ridden this month, it shouldn't have surprised me. Heck, lots of people lunge a horse before every ride, and a lot more do it before riding a horse who has been standing in a corral for weeks. If I'm going to just mount up and ride right away, I shouldn't be too surprised.

For me, riding Bandit, I think I'd be whipping him for not being ready and willing to do more. Yes, I'd be doing it at the time of some bucking, but it would REALLY be me acting out of my frustration over too little riding, too much solitary riding, too much arena time on a horse who isn't very fond of arena riding, etc. At least he always moved forward, and I'd rather deal with a bucking horse than a balking one.

My feeling frustrated is a pee-poor reason to whip ANY horse.

Heck, Bandit was ****y with the other horses yesterday too. And the other horses left him alone. They didn't go, "_You're in a bad mood? Let me set you right by kicking and biting you!_" They pretty much backed off and let him sort things out for himself.

As I've thought more about it, I think @*jaydee* 's comment : "_I've never found that getting aggressive with her helps at all_" may fit Bandit as well. He's reasonably intelligent, but he's stubborn and independent. I'm pretty sure he thinks he is in the right and I'm in the wrong. If so, then punishing him would provoke instead of correct. He's probably an "Ask, encourage, explain" kind of horse.

Glad I went for a run this afternoon instead of a ride. Even if my decision is the wrong one, I'm now proceeding on the right reasons. Having honorable intentions counts for a lot with horses. They know. I'm always amazed at how a run can clear my mind.


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## Hondo

Ok, here comes my 1 1/2 cents worth.

I hit Hondo hard one time. Hard to believe maybe, but I did.

I was working on his feet. It was hot. Sweat was in my eyes. Hondo was figiting around. He was making it harder on me. I scolded him and finally whacked him pretty good.

His face looked expressionless. He came to attention and just stood. Helped pick up any foot I wanted. Would not eat anymore of the food in front of him. Didn't want any treats. The message I was getting: You want to work on my feet? So work on my feet. I had become convinced we were kinda friends but I guess not. My bad. You can't scratch me or hug me and work on my feet.

I'm not exaggerating. I don't know how he did it but he gave me a very big stink eye and cold shoulder.

I was totally devastated.

But forgiving as horses are, it seemed it wasn't too long before he had decided that I had learned my lesson. And I had. And I have.

But that was/is Hondo. As always, YMMV.


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## gottatrot

Agree very much with all of the above posts. What comes through strongly is that we need to know ourselves and our individual horses. What makes one horse feel safe and comfortable will offend another. 

Oliver seems far above reprimands, a kingly horse. Hondo seems a sensitive soul. Bandit seems like he would like everything to line up properly and gets frustrated when it doesn't. That is what I think I get from reading? 

Amore focuses hard on the minutia of life and is surprised by the things outside of her line of sight and thought. Halla wants structure (similar to Booker), and tries to figure out the rules and whether you are deciding what the rules are or if she is. She is a heavy communicator and would like feedback all the time. 

Booker wants to have feedback once, clearly and loudly and then to be left completely alone. He gets very offended if you try to keep talking to him through seat or reins. You say, "I am here, I'll talk to you later on when I need you to do something." So he gets offended if you don't say, "Hello," at the beginning, but then he also gets offended if you talk too much. 
Horses!!!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

gottatrot said:


> Oliver seems far above reprimands, a kingly horse.....
> 
> Horses!!!


I don't know how kingly he is. Though he does tend to have that air about him. He takes reprimand just fine _if and when _it is justly earned; only it doesn't come in the form of a whip or a slap. He will accept that, as long as it is fairly applied. I just personally haven't ever needed to hit him. 

He's been trained to softness in the cues so a harsher leg or more rein than normal serves as a "reprimand" to express my displeasure. If he is openly being a turd, a simple disgusted "Oli-ver!" often suffices. As Ghost reminded me again the other day, the human voice can be a powerful communication tool and he seems to understand inflection quite well.


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## Hondo

@gottatrot Hmmm, you describing the horses or their humans?


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## bsms

A couple of pictures of Bandit's back and general shape (think saddles):








​ 







​ 
Not real clear, but recent - and when he isn't eating:








​ 
I'm thinking of getting an inexpensive English saddle to use with him. It would probably be used 1/week, so inexpensive is important. I was thinking a Wintec 250...but there are no places around where I can check out panel shape, channel width, how much it curves, etc. Statelinetack allows returns and they currently have a 30% off sale.

Any suggestions for what might fit him or a good used saddle type to consider would be appreciated. I dislike the leg blocks used on a lot of dressage saddles. I don't jump, although I actually liked the Bates CC saddle I had - EXCEPT it had both CAIR and a narrow channel. I hate CAIR, and Mia disliked narrow channels - and I'm sure Bandit would as well. But it doesn't bother me in the least if my bare leg (jeans) hang down below the flap. Kind of like it, actually. This picture is about 7 years old now...obviously not a traditional jump position on a jump saddle:








​ 
His back is a little flatter and a little shorter than Mia's was. He has big shoulders (now) and pretty good withers. His back is A-frame. Slab sides. He's using a semi-quarter horse western saddle.

What should I buy - if it won't cause too much marital discord?


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## egrogan

I will say that I really like a dressage saddle vs. AP for hacking out. Not all dressage saddles have those huge thigh blocks- I really dislike them too. My current saddle has a bigger block than I'd ideally have, and my old County Competitor had minimal blocks that I loved (unfortunately it was really too small for me, fit Izzy well though).

Current saddle (Trilogy Debbie MacDonald). Believe it or not, these blocks are considered fairly slight:









Old saddle (County Competitor)- Much slimmer profile on the block:









You might check out Pelham Saddlery- they usually have a large inventory, will work with you virtually using wither tracings, etc., and ship out used saddles on trial.


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## gottatrot

I also dislike most thigh blocks, and that is something I am happy with about my new saddle - it has blocks that velcro on so I can remove them if I wish. Something I don't like about most dressage saddles is that they often have such a deep seat and high cantle. What this means to me is that sometimes when the horse speeds up suddenly or starts trotting, the cantle might bump me forward if I am not prepared. I find this is more important on a rough gaited horse. 

I've had Thorowgood saddles on my list of possibilities for awhile now. What I like about them is that they have good width between the panels, they are wool flocked so will conform better to the horse's back than the foam panels that are sometimes used, they are shorter for horses that are shorter backed, and they also make models for either wide backed, standard or high withered horses. They are also reasonably priced, and if you don't mind synthetic you can probably find a used one for around $200 on ebay. Just make sure it is the model you want since they do make broadback versions versus high wither versions.
I have never ridden in one myself, so am only going off good reviews online.

Thorowgood - Saddles specifically designed to fit different conformations
Here's a pic of the panels:









I've ridden in four different Wintec saddles. I liked one, which was an Isabell dressage saddle. The entire saddle was suede. I bought one like it that was synethic but not suede, and it didn't fit Amore and also the material made me stick, then slip, then stick again so it made my back sore. It also did not fit, but I didn't know much about saddle fitting then so assumed I could just stick the right gullet in. The third Wintec had CAIR and it was terrible to ride in but also didn't fit the horse - the owner liked it but she only walked. If you trotted, the horse would buck. The fourth Wintec I was indifferent to. It fit the horse and I didn't ride the horse very long or hard so I didn't notice anything terrible or great.


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## bsms

My youngest got back from her 2-month trip overseas a few days back, and we had decent weather. So we took Bandit and Trooper out. Trooper had probably been ridden 3 times in the last 2+ months. Bandit has been ridden very little this last month or so, and that only in our little arena. So how'd they do?

In a word - great.

This is the day one trash company picks up the main trash, and the other one in our area picks up recycling - so every house had at least one trash can. Bandit obviously doesn't like them, but he never slowed down, not even for the ones with open mouths.

On 31 Oct, I wrote:



bsms said:


> ...There was a truck and trailer parked beside the road in a place no one had parked before. That was pretty scary. I eventually led him up to it, but he got fussy when I was about to mount up, so I started leading him. 30 feet past, turn around, walk by until 30 feet past, turn around...maybe two dozen times, until he relaxed as I mounted up.
> 
> He was still on edge, and we went into the desert
> 
> ...I will say that when we came back, Bandit walked past the truck and trailer without any extra urging. He didn't like it, but he stayed on the paved road and never slowed...


The trailer has remained a pretty disturbing sight, and this time there were dead plants in the back of it, so I told my daughter to be prepared to take the lead. The trailer was on the east side of the road. Bandit edged to the west side, off the pavement but between it and a 4" high "wall" of brick a neighbor had used to edge their yard. He still doesn't like it, but crowding the 4 inch edging was enough to keep him moving. Didn't step over the bricks once.

Trooper? He didn't care. I think he was pretty well content to have "his" rider back.

About 5 minutes into the desert, Bandit sighed, lowered his head to where it is in my avatar...and then stayed relaxed and willing the rest of the ride. It was all in an area he knows well, but he went past all the spots he gets sticky in without getting sticky. Gave the stink eye to one or two things, but he didn't slow. We spent over an hour walking the horses in the 200 acres of desert near us, going along washes, on trails and off them. Neither horse put a foot wrong or fussed...and it had been at least a month since Bandit had been in the desert.

Coming back, he passed the trailer without hesitation and barely glanced at it. Then the garbage truck turned the corner and headed toward us. They often zip by at 40 mph in a 25 zone, belching smoke. I didn't want to press my luck, so I dismounted.

This garbageman, however, slowed his truck and idled by as quietly as he could. I waved and shouted thanks. My daughter stayed on Trooper, and Bandit didn't even LOOK at the garbage truck. He was looking at our corral, where an excited Cowboy was running around and calling out in frustration at being left behind.

We were only 5 minutes from home, and I normally walk once an hour and was overdue, so I led Bandit the last 5 minutes, including the garbage truck passing us again.

One of the reasons I had considered taking a whip was to "unstick" him at the trailer. Glad I didn't, and haven't, because he is now accepting the trailer as a minimal threat. Would he have done so if I had whipped him to get him to go by? Or would that have cemented the idea that trailers are dangerous?

Don't know. But Bandit and Trooper were very well behaved for two horses who have been cooped up in a corral most of the last month. We even trotted them a little ways, side by side, and they didn't get too competitive.

It can be such an up/down, hot/cold thing with horses that I often miss signs of progress. And Bandit is making progress. If he is sometimes "silly" - well, *HE* doesn't think it is silly! FWIW, I tensed up at a couple of spots where I thought he might tense up...and he didn't follow 'my lead'. He stayed relaxed.

People talk about us needing to be "The Strong Leader". I suppose that works with some horses. Bandit is, however, an "Independent Horse" - a horse who makes up his own mind and who doesn't really care much about what other horses or humans think. He hasn't so much become calmer because I'm Superman, but because he is learning that a lot of things that used to scare him just do not merit fear. He has gained some respect for my opinion about how scary something is, but I don't think he'll ever become a "_Whatever you say, Boss_" horse. Don't really want him to, either. Paying attention to his fears is embarrassing in a land filled with stock horses who just obey, but maybe some embarrassment is the price I pay to have someone I ride with instead of on.

Still thinking about English saddles. I searched the Internet for a place that reflocks saddles. The closest I could find is about 3 hours away, and it is primarily a western saddle repair shop. I'm sure there is someone in Scottsdale that does it, but maybe it is word of mouth. Can you mail a saddle somewhere for reflocking? I realize that wouldn't give a custom fit, but it might be my best option. Not sure I want to buy English if getting it reflocked someday isn't a viable option.


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## Hondo

I have to wonder if Bandit "notices" whether you are carrying a whip or not and also if he picks up on any tiny differences in your immediate persona when you do or do not.

If they are really the "Zen Masters" at reading a person I suspect he does. I have noticed anytime I have anything other than my normal being the ears go erect and the eyes widen a bit.


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## bsms

When I have a whip, it is draped over the horn. I don't think Bandit notices. I carried one for years with Mia and used it about 1/year to whip my own leg. She noticed immediately if I picked it up off the horn. I've never taken it off the horn when riding Bandit. It's a hunch, but I think using it once would take us about 6 months backwards...

I think my giving weight to his feelings is a crucial part of whatever trust we've built up. He may seem silly to me at times but I don't think he ever feels silly. Thus smacking him, or even my leg, would be an unjustified act of aggression.


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## carshon

BSMS glad to hear you had a good ride. What I read most from your posts is that it is important to "read" your horse. And I truly believe this. Bullying a horse rarely works in the long term.

Thank you for posting and being a thoughtful rider. It is interesting to see your perspective.


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## jaydee

We tried a Thorowgood saddle on K - it was the synthetic version of the Kent and Masters saddle and looked really well made so I was hoping it would work but she started getting antsy the moment it was on her and when ridden in it started broncing - which she doesn't do. We ended up buying the Kent and Masters leather saddle which looked identical and she went great in it to start with but this year was clearly not comfortable in that one either


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## bsms

*Bandit's best ride to date!*

Got a ride in before church today. We've got grandkid duty all afternoon. My wife calls it "pleasure". "Duty" is about as nice a word as I would use. Since riding this afternoon (70s, sunny, no wind, perfect riding weather) may not happen...went early. Still was beautiful out!

Swapped out the TT I used recently due to a different thread for the O-ring snaffle.

We were solo because no one else wanted to ride. NO IDEA why not! Bandit had not been to the desert solo in ages, and only had one trip there in the last 4-5 weeks. So we went there solo today...just felt like the right thing.

When we got to the trailer by the road, he moved about 12 inches off the pavement on the other side and trotted past. He's half-Arabian, so if trotting helps his mind...it's his birthright.  Once safely past, he walked.

Turned into the desert. He acted relaxed. Blew some snot and relaxed more. We took some zig-zags off the ATV trail. He was fine. When I turned him to the path that goes past the community water tank, I needed to direct rein for 5 seconds - then he said OK. He's not fond of that path, but he went.

Dropped into the wash solo for the first time. Only spent a few hundred yards in it, then climbed out. He was aware, but not nervous. Probably could have gone much farther - but I've decided I want to lay a SOLID base in calmness.

At a smooth part of the ATV trail, where it is really a dirt road, I asked him for a solo canter. He liked it. Built up some speed. The few times I've cantered him in the open, I've held him back. This time I gave a lot of slack and let him decide. When I said "Easy", he didn't drop to a trot. So I bumped the reins a couple of times, lightly, and he trotted. Said "easy" again, and he walked just before we hit the rocky spot.

I think that made sense to him. Going fast on rocks would hurt. Good call by his rider! So we did a walk-canter transition right after the rocks. As we approached another rocky spot, I said "Easy" - and he dropped to a trot, then a walk. So we detoured and avoided the rocks entirely.

When we came back into the neighborhood, he only moved about 2 feet off the center-line of the road when passing the trailer. He slowed, looked curiously at it for a moment, then strolled on by - all with plenty of slack.

He alerted at the sight of two people walking two dogs ahead of us. I thanked him, said I had it, it was no problem - and he went on fine. Finished up. Removed his bridle and he rubbed his head against my arm. Some say that is bad, but he and I have always done it, and I did it with Mia before him.

Solo ride. Past the trailer twice. Past the big community water tank. In the wash. Zig-zagged between cactus off trail. Cantered fast...ok, needed the reins for a moment to say slow down. Did it again and he responded to voice alone. No fuss. No problems. Whatever his faults may be...in seven years, I never had a relaxing solo ride in the desert with Mia! Not sure how Bandit could have been much better behaved!

Forecast is for a week of very nice weather. Let's hope we repeat this! A few rides like this and maybe BOTH of us will learn to relax and trust each other. He was wonderful!


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## Bondre

It brought a smile to my face reading about your best ride to date with Bandit.  You're starting to trust him more and he's responding to you. It's such a good feeling when you can give them a bit of rein - even at speed - and you know that the communication is still there. 

I had a similar ride with Macarena on Saturday. I came back feeling on top of the world. We reached a spot where she would have preferred to turn for home, and she said so. I said let's go a bit further. We discussed it amicably and we continued. We cantered in some big unploughed fields. We SPED. Then we turned for home and she trotted - TROTTED - on a loose rein with her head low .... towards home. I was amazed. And very pleased. 

We met the herd of sheep on the way home. Had to go off the track into the field so as not to be engulfed. Macarena was mildly interested but not bothered in the least. I even managed to take a photo. 

But then shortly after the sheep we spotted one of the sheep dogs lurking on top of a high bank - a menacing black silhouette at eye level - and she said 'let's get the hell out of here!' And we did. All the way home. But she was listening, and it was a joint decision (more her's than mine but whatever) so it was ok.


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## bsms

Love the picture and hearing of your ride with Macarena. I'd so love to be able to take Bandit to the ranch in Utah someday and do some 'herding' with him. Riding him in a place and situation like this will probably remain a fantasy...but it isn't all wrong to dream:










Note: if you click on the picture, it enlarges.​ 
Speed is tough for me. If Mia built up speed, it was always very hard to slow/stop her. It wasn't her fault. Her breeding and our limited environment created a problem that neither of us could really solve. We did enough bolts and enough "Must keep running!" episodes that I find tough to trust a horse to keep his mind and balance.

Meeting me has enabled Bandit to start using his left front leg correctly and to start giving up his fear. Meeting Bandit is - equally slowly - enabling me to ride less defensively...and to start giving up MY fear.

Odd as it sounds, I think some of our best times come when I'm cleaning the corral. He'll follow me, looking for attention, scratches & rubs. I try to keep him from tipping over the wheelbarrow of poop...and give him attention, scratches and rubs. I guess I shouldn't blame him for needing a long time to give up HIS fears, when I'm still working on giving up my own. Guess I'm glad he doesn't try to whip the fear out of me...


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## carshon

Your riding post made me smile. I have owned Tillie since mid Aug and have only cantered a few strides once. Leaving it for a time when she trusts me more. 

Everyone needs a relaxing solo ride occasionally


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## Bondre

bsms said:


> Speed is tough for me. If Mia built up speed, it was always very hard to slow/stop her..... We did enough bolts and enough "Must keep running!" episodes that I find tough to trust a horse to keep his mind and balance.


After Mia I can quite understand that you are still cagey about cantering solo in the desert. But you're getting there! And you've only had Bandit for a year and a bit. With longish periods when you haven't been able to ride. So I'd say your joint progress is remarkable. 

After all, some people are still in the round pen with their horse after a year ;-) :rofl:



bsms said:


> Meeting me has enabled Bandit to start using his left front leg correctly and to start giving up his fear. Meeting Bandit is - equally slowly - enabling me to ride less defensively...and to start giving up MY fear.
> 
> I guess I shouldn't blame him for needing a long time to give up HIS fears, when I'm still working on giving up my own.


It does sound like you needed him just as much as he needed you. Interesting to consider that mutual trust is a work in progress, and that if you still don't 100% trust him (for understandable reasons), maybe he feels the same and also needs more time to overcome his fears. You must have a high level of empathy with him to see that. 



bsms said:


> Guess I'm glad he doesn't try to whip the fear out of me...


Should be the quote of the week!


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## Hondo

"Guess I'm glad he doesn't try to whip the fear out of me.."

I got a chuckle out of this also. A creative artist could make great cartoon that would be a teachable cartoon out of that quote.


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## bsms

*Just finished an interesting ride on Bandit this morning...*

I've been experimenting with shorter stirrups, but dropped them for today. I was thinking about gottatrot's comment in her journal about exercising her horse and not needing to max perform her horse - so why get way out of the saddle with a very forward seat? Good thing I was thinking about that today...

The good news is Bandit & I went solo to the desert using the street he dislikes, and he was mostly OK with it. Started into the desert on a narrow trail that goes between trees - what passes for trees where I live. Good dirt, tho, so I asked Bandit for a canter. He gave it too, but we did some of that angular cantering, angling left then right then left then right as claustrophobic Bandit cantered thru the narrow (and thus scary) gap. Got him slowed OK, and turned up the dirt road/ATV trail that gives our best place for cantering. Asked him for a canter...and we did an immediate walk/canter transition.

And he FLEW. I'm 90% certain it was still a canter. Didn't feel like he switched to a 4-beat gallop, but that boy was hauling along faster at the canter than Mia galloped at a bolt. I had no idea he had it in him. They told me he was their fasted horse for relay races, and that they used him for the final leg of the relay - but I had no idea. Let him go for a little ways, but we very quickly approached the section with rocks. Tried to slow him, and he nearly swerved off trail. That would have been a high-speed entry into a LOT of cactus. Corrected him hard enough to get pointed straight again, told him to slow, and he tried a high speed bucking canter.

If my stirrups had been shorter, he'd have thrown me. No doubt. If my heels hadn't been forward and down, he'd have thrown me. If I hadn't had one hand on the horn and pushed back to stop my shoulders from going forward, he'd have thrown me - fast, and into rocks.

If any experienced riders want to laugh at me for often riding with one hand on the horn, laugh away! I'm not in the hospital...or more likely, lying out in the desert waiting for my wife to discover something is wrong.

*As it was, he ****ed me off*. One handed, I got his head up - UP! - and jerked him so hard that he came to an immediate stop. I was ****ed, and jerked hard again for good measure. Was that right? Not sure I care. Punishment WAS in order and I had every right to be ****ed.

So ****ed, I turned him around and we walked back to the start point, turned around, and cantered again. Fast again, but he didn't swerve or buck when I said to slow. Turned, walked back, turned, and cantered again. And again. Then trotted - and he trotted fast. He usually only trots fast when I get out of the saddle. I wasn't, but he trotted fast. So we kept repeating, again and again, until he gave me a nice, comfortable western jog.

Rode him past a few sets of rocks. Where it smoothed out, asked for a canter. Gave me a nice western lope instead, and slowed at the verbal cue "Easy". We walked the rest of the way back to the neighborhood, and I dismounted and led him home over the pavement. He was much more relaxed by then, but "Angry Bob" had turned into "I Can't Believe We Did That and Lived Bob". He seemed contrite as we walked 1/4 mile home. Or not. Hard to say. Behaved well at least.

I now know why I don't canter him with another horse. Don't need two horses racing, and neither my wife nor my daughter have any business on a horse going that fast. For a scrawny little Arab-Mustang, that boy can GO!

I also don't know how to train him to act better without repeating some of what we did today. I won't try cantering him in that narrow section again. I think that wound him up pretty tight. Maybe try riding him at a walk for 30-45 minutes before trying any solo cantering. There is another section of trail I might be able to use that is rocky without being TOO rocky. That might give him some incentive to keep the speed down.

I also need to get one of those things that will sense if you don't move for 5 minutes and then automatically dial for help - and tell them where to find you.

--------------------------------------------

But I've been experimenting with different stirrup lengths and trying to figure out how to keep safe while letting Bandit go fast comfortably. I think *that experiment is OVER*. If he can haul like that when I'm as deep into the saddle as I can get, then I don't need to worry about his back. If he can buck while trying to canter, as hard as he did today, then he does NOT need me out of the saddle and leaning forward!

I can be as deep into the saddle as I can get, and that scrawny boy can canter faster than I feel a need to gallop. He can trot darn fast that way too! I might as well plan on riding deep and secure. A horse who knows how to buck isn't ever going to forget it. And if I need to guide his direction when he is upset, I need to be solidly in the saddle to do it.

I had ZERO idea he would pull some of that stuff today. I'm certain I made it back because I had a defensive position BEFORE I needed one. There would not have been time to GET defensive. By the time I needed it, I'd have been on the ground - ground a lot like concrete.

So I'm going to stay with longer stirrups. It won't prevent him for going fast, and it is a huge part of staying safe on a horse who sometimes decides to take control. I think that is part of his nature. Might as well learn to live with it. If VS Littauer wants to rise from his grave to yell at me...well, I honestly think VS Littauer would have understood. If not, I'll yell back.


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## egrogan

I will be interested in what other more experienced folks have to say. As you know, I'm generally a bit of a chicken and I don't like feeling out of control. My solution, at least at first when I was experimenting with what "go fast" would mean for Isabel out in the open, was to only ask her to canter when there was a natural point where she was going to want to stop on her own (she is sensible enough that self preservation means something to her. I know that's not true for every horse. And I also know that many people would say a horse shouldn't get a choice...). After doing that enough and feeling confident that she was listening to me when it came time to slow down, and actually _would_ slow down without fighting, I was comfortable enough to ask her for speed in places where there wasn't always a natural stopping point. Like most things with riding Isabel, the challenges were more about my confidence/comfort level than what she can or will do. So I don't know if it's helpful in your riding landscape, but maybe there's a way to pick a spot for cantering where Bandit is going to see a natural "barrier" or "end point" and agree with you that slowing down makes sense, making a fight less likely. The rocks coming up was obvious to you, but maybe not as obvious to him as a fence, or treeline, or something like that? For Isabel, it is almost always a safe bet that she will be ready to slow to a walk at the top of a hill/incline.

Another thought, maybe his behavior today was more excitement than "disrespect" - if I'm remembering correctly, it's fairly recently that you've been taking him out in the open at faster speeds, and could be he's just having a moment of "wow, Bob is into this whole racehorse thing too, how cool, let's keep going!" I get that you need to trust the downward transition, so not making excuses for throwing his head around and bucking...

And yeah...I don't need to repeat my recent lesson learned about positioning oneself in too forward a seat...so if you disregard my thoughts, totally understood!


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## carshon

BSMS- glad you are OK. You have a lot of past poor training to make up for - especially at the canter. It is going to take some time to re-train his fast brain to do the right thing. Keep working on that canter and using your "easy" cue. He will get it - and you will get the seat you are looking for. I agree with the turning around and cantering/trotting again and again if needed. They have to learn and since you ride by yourself he needs to be controllable.

I am a self taught rider so I would never criticize anyone's seat. Since I have no technical back ground and never have shown out side of 4-H I feel you ride in the seat that makes you feel safe.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Glad you are okay. That's a two finger ride; go back home, pour two fingers and down the hatch!

Far be it from me to tell someone not to grab the horn. I don’t, but that’s me. One of the reasons I chose to stick with our trainer was that he didn’t yell at my then 8 year old novice daughter for sometimes grabbing the horn. She has no interest in showing so what was the harm if it gave her a confidence boost…glad my trainer was willing to let that go and concentrate on helping her find her balance so she didn’t feel the need to use it to find her seat.

After getting to know him a bit and doing hundreds of hours of trail riding with him I caught him several times grabbing his cantle when Oliver would alert us to the fact that deer were about. His young horse was a spooky thing! In his sixties he got dumped riding out alone after the horse spooked at some deer. He broke two ribs and had a painful ride home. At his 70+ age group, I sure as heck am not going to fault him for being safe rather than sorry. BTW, Craig Cameron has suggested in a couple of his videos, that grabbing the back of the cantle during a lope is a good way to learn to sit it……

One of the things that clued me in that Oliver is not a QH, is his trot and canter. We would be out with QH’s that could not keep up with his trot while they were loping. When he lopes, unless they are full out galloping, they are left in the dust. His gallop is flat out frightening at the speeds you reach. His extended stride and long legs are such that he covers some serious ground. I love it, but not a horse for the faint of heart. Now you have me wondering if he was bred to race. 

My biggest fear with Oliver is that he also likes to jump things like barbed wire fences so if he was to decide not to slow when asked, who knows what we might literally be jumping into? He never had met an obstacle that he thinks can't be jumped, if only he goes fast enough....ooooh, Oliver. I don't think so!

I think Bandit is Oliver’s spiritual Doppleganger. :biggrin:


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## Hondo

If y'all don't quit talking about this stuff so much you're gonna get me into trouble. I really enjoy just walking along but I gotta admit when I see Hondo trotting or galloping out in the field I do often look long and wistfully.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Hondo, you could always try a gentle trot and see what you think. Personally though I find the lope much more pleasurable (and thrilling). The sitting trot always felt like too much work...


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## Hondo

@RCD;I have my stirrups so low and tied so far forward because of my knees I'm not sure it'd work. I am going to temporarily bring them back and higher to learn posting. @gottatrot suggested I just trot at two point and try to catch a correct post now and then until I tied them together and started posting. That sounded like a good idea to me.

If/when I learn to post with feet in the stirrups, I'll try to learn posting with feet out of the stirrups.

Then I've read that a good way to learn the sitting trot is to catch one now and then while posting until now and then becomes all the time.

If I can sit the trot with no stirrups, then hopefully I can sit the trot no matter where my stirrups are.

That's the plan, but only a plan.

I'll say this, the very first time Hondo made a spin and bolt was before fear locked up my body and I just spun with him and holy cow was he moving out. I have no idea if I was sitting or standing but I clearly remember, "Wow, this is fast and smoother than a walk!", before I finally decided I should try reining him in which was not hard.

That memory has stayed with me. I admit to it being incredibly fun and exhilarating. I have no idea of what his gait was. It just felt like RUNNING FAST.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

One of the big problems with the sitting trot in western is that people get bracey and tight in their legs. 

I remember getting corrected all of the time for stiffening my ankles and my instructor would have me drop the stirrups completely until I could sit it without the horn and without stirrups. 

That technique annoyed me enough that I convinced myself that dropping the stirrups was BS invented by riding instructors to torture small children. That was until...

My daughter had a hard time finding a saddle to fit her; she was too big for a pony saddle and too short to reach the adult stirrups without running out of room on the fenders (only so many extra holes you can put in before the fender gets in the way). 

She ended up riding in an adult saddle without stirrups and then went bareback. She now hates saddles and prefers bareback. 

I have to tell you she impresses me with her ability to sit the trot for long distances bareback on her flat backed, no withers, rolly polly horse. I know I can't sit it bareback without serious focus. I no longer believe that dropping the stirrups and learning the sitting trot that way is BS. It has worked incredibly well for her. She still can't post worth a darn.


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## Hondo

If she sits that well it may be anti-reflexive to post. Just doesn't compute since she wants to stay with the horse. I would actually prefer to ride bareback but the first bareback spin bolt with Hondo convinced me otherwise.

Ah well, there's a lot of things that look fun but at 75 (in a few days) one just has to sometimes shrug them off.

Problem is, my shrugger sometimes quits working


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Her little horse has to trot to keep up with Oliver so she ends up trotting at least 70% of our rides which are often 2hrs + 

Her rear end gets a bit sore....you're right though. She doesn't need to post for the most part. Back when she was struggling to sit (the barn she started at had a saddle that fit her. When we left, the saddle stayed), posting was one of the suggestions. It just worked out better for her to simply not use stirrups at all and learn to sit. 

Can't rightly blame you for not wanting to do bareback after a spin and bolt!


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## Hondo

That bareback spin and bolt was almost exactly two years ago, just a few days before I recieved Hondo as a gift for my 73'd. I had no idea what happened. I just found myself stretched out on the ground. Hondo was hiding behind a bush peeking out at me.

I did not tell the ranch about it for fear they'd decide not to "sell" him to me but at the same time I wondered if I was doing the right thing at all. It was mentally very traumatic for me. It was a long time after that before I ever started a ride without some dread and trepidation.

Happily, fear and trepidation is nowhere to be found as I embark on a ride now-a-days. I am, however, somewhere around 6,000 % more aware of my horse at all times now and know that it can again happen at anytime. When things git a little nervous, I play my video of the slow motion bolt in my head and that has got my confidence back. I rode his very first spin bolt which was his biggest no problem. The bareback spin bolt was my downfall, pun intended.

Edit: BTW, I was pointing the same direction we were traveling while laying on the ground so apparently he just spun right out from under me.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I’ve become a pasture rider to a large extent. I don’t do much arena work anymore and I’m lazy when it comes to stealing a quick ride. If I’m going out for a real trail ride it is going to be a long one and we tack up. 

With my daughter and school schedules, we end up being able to just snag an hour here and there on the trails on and around the property; then it is just tie up the lead rope to the rope halter and jump on (with helmets of course). We don’t bother with tack, it cuts into riding time.

I’m sure though that if Oliver or Caspian ever pulled a spin, bolt or bucking fit, we’d be doing tack or not riding. The only time Caspian has dumped my daughter was when she was riding him bareback alone over to the neighbor’s house and a deer jumped up out of the grass not three feet away. Cass spooked, at which time my daughter ate dirt and then he took off after the deer. I guess he figured the deer knew what they were running from, so best follow it. 

I haven't gotten dumped (knock wood) in many years. 1989? But, about 7 years ago I had a nasty true bucking incident with a "lesson horse" that made me a bit reticent about that particular horse for quite a few weeks. Still rode him but, as you said you become much more aware of what that horse is doing underneath you.


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## bsms

Been in town all afternoon.

Bandit was not being disrespectful. I got his emotions up with the first canter between "trees". He was elevated, and I should have let him walk a ways. Asking him to canter immediately afterward was probably not the smartest thing I've done on horseback. He obviously enjoyed 'opening up' and didn't want to quit. Nothing wrong with that, except he cannot see what lies ahead as well as I can.

Don't know if he was cantering or galloping. When in the arena, we're almost always turning and I can easily feel him shifting gear. Maybe he shifted gears today but I didn't notice because we were going straight. I honestly wasn't in the mood to go, "_Is that 1-2-3, or 1-2-3-4?_" Either way, when he decided to move, he moved. And that will be a very fun thing IF we can get it controlled a little.

Regardless, bucking at speed ****ed me off and I had a right to be ****ed. His previous owner said he couldn't call him a "kid's horse' because a kid could ride him no problem - until the kid couldn't ride him. He could probably run over the rocky spots without hurting himself or me, but I'd hate to find out I was wrong!

The horn, to me, is very helpful when a horse spins hard or bucks. Spinning, holding it with one had and freezing my arm means my shoulders WILL stay over the horse's back - huge for staying on in a spin. Bucking, I need to push back with something to keep my shoulders from being tossed forward. PULLING on the horn would really screw me, but PUSHING against it helped.

My daughter calls Bandit "Mia 2.0". He is much less likely to lose his mind, but far more likely to tell me to XXXX OFF! But like Mia, thankfully, you are always WITH someone. Owning Mia and Bandit means I'll never say, "_I'm going for a ride!_" - it will always be "_Bandit & I are going for a ride!_" We. Always WE.

It is that MUTUAL TRUST thing we need to work on. In retrospect, other than revealing a vocabulary my pastor wouldn't appreciate, I think I handled it well. Of course, @egrogan, any ride that doesn't result in my putting frozen corn on my face is at least an OK ride!  But I am SOOOOOO glad I wasn't trying shorter stirrups and a forward seat!

---------------------------------------------

Bracing has long been one of my big problems. If the stirrups are short enough to brace against, I will. I cannot sit a trot to save my soul with short stirrups. Don't canter all that well either. Long stirrups, angled forward, shifts my balance forward without requiring me to lean much. Saves my back. And there seems to be something about having my legs wrapped around the horse's center of motion that makes it easier to sit the trot or stay solid in the canter...or whatever it was we were doing today.

If my stirrups are long enough that I automatically use the "home" position to keep them from falling off, I can sit the trot and feel good in the canter. Any shorter and I'll need to post and to half-seat the canter. I can post with the stirrups long if I rely more on thigh. And I think I need to practice posting with Bandit so I can use the rhythm to adjust his speed.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Bandit caught me by surprise today, but I need to give him credit. The narrow alley between the 15' trees? *He'd never gone there alone before*. It was the first time he went there solo - and Dumb Bob asked him to canter thru it! But he went...

And he obeyed when I asked him to return to the start and try again.

And he didn't try to buck on any of the subsequent canters or trots.

And the last time we cantered, he slowed on voice command.

In some ways he did quite well today. And if he caught me by surprise, I may have caught him by surprise when I insisted on going back and trying again. And again. And again.

Sure wish I had a mile or more of smooth ground, though!


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## egrogan

^^hey, all that time with the bags of frozen corn meant the black eyes were gone in just a week!!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

bsms said:


> Bandit caught me by surprise today, but I need to give him credit. The narrow alley between the 15' trees? *He'd never gone there alone before*. It was the first time he went there solo - and Dumb Bob asked him to canter thru it! But he went...
> 
> And he obeyed when I asked him to return to the start and try again.
> 
> And he didn't try to buck on any of the subsequent canters or trots.
> 
> And the last time we cantered, he slowed on voice command.
> 
> In some ways he did quite well today. And if he caught me by surprise, I may have caught him by surprise when I insisted on going back and trying again. And again. And again.
> 
> Sure wish I had a mile or more of smooth ground, though!


I think Bandit is a good boy. He just needs you to show him the way.


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## whisperbaby22

I think that the way we learn to ride just kind of sticks with us. Most of us ride as much as we can, but with busy lives it's hard to really spend a lot of time in the saddle now that we drive cars to get around instead of riding horses. I did most of my early riding on a bareback pad, and have always felt uncomfortable in a saddle.  When these treeless things came out, I was really happy about that, kind of have the best of both worlds.


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## gottatrot

Great job staying on with the bucking. Bucking is my least favorite horse motion, I think because I still have bad memories from Amore's early days. I always yank hard on the reins if a horse bucks. They need to know that is _not_ acceptable. Halla is a wimpy bucker. I've thought several times, "Uh oh, here she goes," and it always fizzled out. Thankfully most horses are not excellent buckers. But horses seem to have their "go to" thing they like to go to when they're feeling frisky or upset, and it sounds like Bandit's is bucking. Amore's has always been bucking too. If in doubt, buck it out (her motto).

It's good you know what Bandit's motivation was, and I think that was a great idea to bring him back and do it again. It will diminish the excitement of doing it the next time, most likely. It sounds like his mind blew up for a second.

Also I think it can be important if you don't have a lot of space to work on teaching the horse where the end of a run will be. My equivalent of where you ride was when we were close to and rode on the mountain trails, several years ago. You had to stop where the run ended, or you might hit a tight curve or shoot off a cliff. So I would decide where the runs were, and then we'd practice a few times. First we'd trot at speed through those areas, dropping to a slow walk at the end. Then we'd do a controlled canter several times. By the time I let the horses gallop, they knew where the end was and that helped them honor it even when racing other horses. 

I bet you were galloping. Amore has a distinct change between canter and gallop, and you can feel it quite obviously. Halla and some other horses I've ridden start galloping and you can't tell unless you listen to the beats. She does have a gait change between her mid-gallop and fastest gallop though, which you can feel distinctly because it gets rougher. 

It gets very tricky knowing how soon to ask for a horse to slow down if they go faster. Wait too long and you'll end up over shooting your mark.


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## Alhefner

WOW! you had a serious ride! It sounds to me like Bandit was having some fun and then objected to your trying to interrupt that fun, thus the bucking.

Glad you stayed ON and, personal opinion, you did exactly the right thing by taking him back to do it over and over again.

I have not yet cantered on Mr. "I ain't gonna and you can't make me" Barney. Still have jangled nerves from being bucked out of the saddle twice at a walk! We're working things through though.


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## bsms

"_It sounds like his mind blew up for a second. Also I think it can be important if you don't have a lot of space to work on teaching the horse where the end of a run will be...[&]...I bet you were galloping._" - @gottatrot

This makes sense. The spot we were at yesterday is one of the safest spots around for going fast, but it has 2 sections of rock in it that can mess with a horse's hooves - proven by my youngest cantering Trooper over those spots a few years back. I think I'll work on going out and TROTTING those sections, with slowing to a STOP just prior to the rocks.

Looking back, another mistake was giving him his head. His background includes relay races in NE Arizona. The horsemanship and finesse used in those relay races - at least from what I've seen on YouTube - underwhelms me. They aren't anything like a standard endurance race. Based on his background, giving him his head might be the equivalent of a specific cue to tell him to go as fast as he can. It might be a human-based trained response: "When I give you your head, pour it on!" If so, he may have been doing what he thought I was asking for - and then upset that I changed my mind just as he was giving it his best! One never knows what lurks in the background training of a horse you didn't start from scratch. 

Subsequent canters were done with me telling him, in no uncertain terms, "_Cool it! I'm not giving you free rein!_" He may NEED that, at least until time and a lot of experience has over-written previous experience.

That is also why I get so upset with people saying a horse with issues needs more time in the arena using a snaffle to soften him up. If you start your own horses, you may not have experienced what happens when you inadvertently flip the wrong switch in a horse's mind. Re-training a horse is different from starting a horse. Heck, 18 months ago, a bit was an emergency brake to Bandit. I nearly ended up on his neck just from lifting the reins the first time I rode him! If - big IF - he was taught being given his head means going full bore in a race, then giving him his head in an arena will do nothing to retrain him. There is nowhere for him to cut loose in an arena. Some problems have to be dealt with where they ARE a problem. 

Looking back, I'd bet he was galloping too. My arena is so small that cantering has largely been done in circles. At least in that environment, switching gears on him is like an automatic transmission that needs adjusting - a firm clunk I can feel thru the saddle. Going straight is much easier on him. I don't see how he could have hit that speed in a canter...I'm just used to feeling the shift. It was at least Mia-bolting speed. Probably more. Brought back some unpleasant memories.

We just cleaned up and expanded our little arena and we've started doing straight-line, 100-110 foot long canters, dropping to a walk & turn at the end. We need more of that.

I don't need many rides like yesterday. I think my way ahead includes:

1 - Arena work, including straight line controlled canters to a walk.

2 - Trotting with "End of speed" marks on the short dirt road near me.

3 - CONTROLLED canters, similar to how I approached the follow-up canters yesterday.

4 - With more trust, gradually reducing control of the canters in the open.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bucking ****es me off. However, you may be right:

"_But horses seem to have their "go to" thing they like to go to when they're feeling frisky or upset, and it sounds like Bandit's is bucking. Amore's has always been bucking too. If in doubt, buck it out (her motto)._"

But 'praemonitus, praemunitus' - 'forewarned is forearmed'...not that I know Latin: ('Forewarned is forearmed' - meaning and origin of this phrase). I didn't know that some horses might just naturally respond that way. It makes sense though, riding and observing Bandit. It helps to know I'm not the only person in the world whose horse believes "_If in doubt, buck it out"_.

If so, then prudent defensive measures are called for - perhaps riding him a little deeper (particularly when in the real world), wearing a helmet with him more often, sheepskin on my slick saddle, etc. And, if warning bells are going off in my head, maybe putting a hand on the horn and remembering to push away from the horn if he bucks.

"Proper riding" often is used to mean "_Look like someone riding a well trained horse in an arena for show_". For me, proper riding means expanding MY horizons and my HORSE'S horizons outside the arena without either of us getting hurt. If that looks odd, then I'll be Odd Rider! *Horses are great at teaching humility*.


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## bsms

Alhefner said:


> ...I have not yet cantered on Mr. "I ain't gonna and you can't make me" Barney. Still have jangled nerves from being bucked out of the saddle twice at a walk! We're working things through though.


Jangled nerves are, IMHO, a key element in becoming a good rider. People have told me, particularly online people, to ignore my nerves and press on. If I did that, I'd be stupid. I suspect those are the same people who say you need to fall 20 times to become a good rider, or the people I've met with decades of experience but who still believe the answer to every training issue is "Get a bigger whip!"

Jangled nerves and bruises create an excellent opportunity to pause and reflect. One of the Dorrance brothers said something along the lines of '_I had to learn to ride well because I wasn't strong enough to ride poorly_'. Something like that. Without questions, we'd never need answers. And there seems to be plenty of experienced riders who have never met a screw they couldn't hammer...

I'm sure you and Barney will work things out. Maybe with a few detours along the way. I've got a couple of days of high winds and cold to work out my way ahead with Bandit. That's what makes riding fascinating.


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## bsms

There is a multipage discussion on gottatrot's journal about balance and bits, with some excellent riders discussing it. I'm the least experienced and least skillful of the bunch, but Mia gave me a lot of experience in bolting horses, and this is my contribution:



bsms said:


> ...here is what I've felt with Mia & Bandit and using snaffles when they get excited:
> 
> The first thing I tried with Mia when her nose went out was lowering my hands. It seemed to make sense - lower my hands to get the pressure against a sensitive spot instead of her molars. I could get my hands down about a foot before it would cost me more in strength than I could gain with angle.
> 
> Didn't work. Mia would just tilt her nose further out. In this sort of situation, the problem is the horse doesn't WANT to listen. And she could easily counter my lower hands.
> 
> So I tried a side to side motion. It was recommended in books. Snap the left hand back and to the side, then the right. Pop, pop! Pop, pop! Pop, pop! Left/right...pause...left/right...etc. That has worked very well for keeping a snaffle effective with Bandit. If he braces, even if I'm using a Billy Allen snaffle, which is close to a mullen bit, it works. In fact, with Bandit, it works if my total rein motion is only an inch or two, twisting my hands to shorten each side: "Pop, pop! Left/right...pause...left/right..." - and by that time he is not fighting the bit any longer and is listening.
> 
> That did not work with Mia. It probably would have, if we had a huge meadow to try it in. But she'd be racing down the ATV road, and ANY side to side motion with my hands would result in her swerving left/right, big time. I think I made two attempts before the cactus flashing by my sides convinced me to give up. A sharp turn was coming up and she would never have made it at speed, so I reached into my bag of untried tricks, used the Pulley Rein that I saw in a Julie Goodnight video - and Mia slammed on the brakes. I'm sure I hurt her mouth and she was ****ed - but we were alive to fight about it, so I credit a Julie Goodnight video with saving my life that day - and Mia's.
> 
> I believe in reading books and watching videos. Your bag of tricks can never be too big!
> 
> The next ride, I switched her to a curb bit. I stood next to her, using very light pressure on the reins, and waited until she gave a tiny response that I liked. Repeated until she was yielding good to the bit, both laterally and vertically. Then mounted up and we did turns & stops at a walk for 45 minutes. Next ride included some trotting. Third ride included some cantering, including this picture my wife took of our first canter to full stop transition:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> Not a thing of beauty, but she obviously understood. Fourth ride was into the desert. She freaked at a motorcycle, 3 pops in the mouth with the bit and she stopped in a straight line, paused...the motorcycle went away - and a light bulb popped on above her head. She could stand still and the scary thing would move! Cool! She never tried to bolt away in fear again. We still did lots of spins and lots of OMG Crouches, but she gave up bolting - because why bolt if you can wait and watch the scary thing run away?
> 
> A quote on a recent thread suggested it took 3,000 successful repetitions for a horse to learn. Mia took one. There was one time, about a month later, when she dragged her rear leg into cactus, kicked at the cactus, covering her leg in spines, and then leapt away. Three pops with the curb and she stopped - with cactus surrounding us on three sides. But her mind was back and she moved sideways - something she never learned to do in an arena - and then I dismounted and removed a hundred spines from her leg. Then we continued our ride.
> 
> I know most folks here have far more experience. But I like to think I shared some characteristics with Mia and Bandit, to include not needing to do something 3,000 times before I figure it out.
> 
> I'll add one thing: If I could afford to let Mia run in a bolt, the best way to stop her was to just keep riding her, pry my knees apart, keep a loose rein, and call her name. When an ear flicked back, her mind had returned and she would stop easily. The problem was that we didn't always have enough room to do that - thus trying different ways of using a snaffle, the Pulley Rein, and the switch to curb bits.
> 
> I change my mind daily, but I suspect Bandit will mostly be ridden in a single joint O-ring. I think he is a little happier bitless, but he can "_get feisty_" as his previous owner put it. That may only happen every 30-40 rides, but when it does...well, a good sidepull is adequate. But in my experience, a bit makes it easier to deal with a horse who "gets feisty". That may not be true with every horse. Almost certainly is not, in fact. But for Bandit and I, a simple snaffle is a good compromise between freedom and control. I sometimes LIKE direct reining and contact, and snaffles are good for that.


I would like a sidepull that works better than the rope ones I've tried. I ordered a biothane one from Two Horse Tack. It was a bad design. It was too small for Bandit, but I figured I could always use it on Trooper. But the noseband was firmly attached at an angle, resulting in this on Trooper (and my other two):








​ 
I complained. It took WEEKS & lots of emailed photos to get them to agree to take it back, and then they applied their policy of a partial refund. So it was about $65 including shipping, plus nearly $15 to ship it back, and they refunded me about $35. $80 spent, $35 back - for a defective piece of tack. I would have understood if I was returning it because the color was wrong, or I ordered the wrong size. But a sidepull should NOT fit like that. Ever!

This company has a design that might work better:











Sidepull - Moss Rock Endurance - Your Source for Custom Biothane Competitive Tack​
My tack budget is pretty well blown for the last couple of months, but I've bookmarked them and may try their sidepull when my checking account looks fatter. I've also considered trying him in a Dr Cook's. I know some folks have had good success with them, but it seems to be either/or - the horse loves it or hates it.

Still - Bandit has convinced me he can haul buns pretty quick and freely in an O-ring snaffle. And when he gets feisty, the O-ring seems a good balance of gentleness and control. FWIW, I was also surprised at how heavy the biothane sidepull was. It was a heavy bridle - much more than Bandit's headstall and bit.


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## phantomhorse13

If you are on the book of faces, you can try stalking the various endurance tack groups for a used one - great place to find good deals, especially if you are flexible on color.


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## bsms

Dunno...bright yellow might be cool on Bandit! Although I rode him while I wore a bright yellow sweatshirt the other day and some bees followed us for 1/4 mile...


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

We have a Dr. Cooks. I got it for Caspian when x-rays revealed that he had a cracked jaw and un-erupted baby tooth that was also cracked. Doc said no bits for a while until he gives the okay. We are still waiting. We think he got kicked in the head. 

Anyway, Caspian loves it. Ollie and Ghost tolerate it. I don't like it though, probably dislike it more than the horses. Not enough feel through the reins for my taste. I'll use it if there isn't any other option but, not my preferred.


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## bsms

Thanks for the advice. Bandit has an odd mouth, and we both think he should be able to grab a bite to eat while riding. And that yellow...and Christmas is coming fast. Hmmmm....

Hopeless tack geek. That's me!


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## Hondo

@Reiningcatsanddogs The crossunder can be had in nylon, leather, or beta. I've read that nylon has the least feel. Especially when it get's old and hard. For Christmas I'm wishing for a Nurtural Beta in orange with matching reins. Doubtful it will happen this year. I do believe the Beta would have a better feel for both horse and rider.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

We got the one in leather. My daughter loves it. 

I'm just a crotchety, persnickety old-ish woman who likes a lot of give and take coming through the reins. Beta feels sticky in my hands and we ride with split reins in a bridged position so a lot of sliding of the hands. I much prefer my Bosal and horse hair mecate. Had to spend a year re-learning how to cue correctly with it so after all of that work, if I'm not in the four knot halter, or the triple barrel Mylar bit and head stall, then the bosal it is. 

I find the bosal can communicate many of the refined movements of the bit, such as "no I would like to turn with the inside shoulder up" without having to put a bit in their mouth.


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## Hondo

Therein may lie the difference. I'm more like, hey how about we go over that-a-way. I let him decide which shoulder etc and path to take.

The paths he chooses reminds me that color blind people in the war could see camouflaged netting with guns under it as netting with guns where others could see nothing.

I know horses are not supposed to be color blind but they see different colors. I at least suspect that trails sort of jump out at them long before we can ever see them. His batting average is so much better than mine I just try to give an early indication of a general direction and leave the finer points to him.

He tends to take very good care of himself and will not go anywhere he has doubts about unless encouraged to do so. I almost got us buried in quick sand from my encouragement. I'm sort of glad he doesn't trust me completely in some situations. He'll even turn his head and appear to be asking, "You sure about this?", on some occasions.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Hondo said:


> He tends to take very good care of himself and will not go anywhere he has doubts about unless encouraged to do so. I almost got us buried in quick sand from my encouragement. I'm sort of glad he doesn't trust me completely in some situations. He'll even turn his head and appear to be asking, "You sure about this?", on some occasions.


Oliver is very good in the judgement department as far as what *he* his capable of. However, he is convinced that I am a much more physically capable rider than I am. He isn't generally what I would call a babysitter (a horse who takes care of his rider), though he does have his moments. :grin: 

And yes, what your way of going is has a lot to do with your selection of headgear. So will your preferred riding style. I prefer to ride soft, where all of my cues are almost imperceptible, even if you are looking for them. That requires a horse who is also very soft and will respond to those light cues. It is not a way of riding for everyone. When Oliver is bitted up or in a bosal, I can ride him that way. When he is in a halter, it requires less subtle rein cues; still very light and soft but, not as soft as in the bit. 

All I have to do is touch the bit to Oliver's lips (no sticking my fingers in his mouth) and he takes the bit. I've never been rough with him in his mouth, banged his teeth taking it out, pulled hard, yanked or jerked (I have seen some people use that as a technique of disciplining a misbehaving horse). I also took a lot of time to find one that fits his mouth well; not one based in control (like I have said, that is in his mind) but one he finds comfortable. He has no reason to dislike it any more than a cinched saddle and so he doesn't.


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## Hondo

I guess that would be my bottom line on a bit. If the horse accepts it as well as any other head gear, it must be fine with him, and if it's fine with him, it's certainly fine with me.

Avna mentioned that her horse actually reaches for the bit. If Hondo had done that, I'd likely never have went to bitless. But maybe........


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## whisperbaby22

That's to bad about the side pull. But that is the reason that I started making my own bridles. In a perfect world every horse would have a custom bit and bridle. Have you ever tried a mechanical hackamore.


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> I ordered a biothane one from Two Horse Tack.
> ...It took WEEKS & lots of emailed photos to get them to agree to take it back, and then they applied their policy of a partial refund. So it was about $65 including shipping, plus nearly $15 to ship it back, and they refunded me about $35. $80 spent, $35 back - for a defective piece of tack. I would have understood if I was returning it because the color was wrong, or I ordered the wrong size.


Sorry you had issues with Two Horse Tack. I've been tempted to order from them because my friends down the coast have some bridles and reins they really like from them. But they warned me that I had to be positive it was what I wanted and that I didn't get the wrong size, because they also had a terrible time trying to get them to take returns. My friend said it took forever to get a woman to reply, and then the response was rude and about how her time was being wasted, even though my friend paid the restocking and shipping fees plus bought a replacement. I looked them up online and there are other negative reviews. 

I hope you all get the tack you want for Christmas!


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## egrogan

Too bad about the issues with Two Horse Tack. I've had two good experiences with them. First, I bought a custom piece of headgear that we designed to work for one of our therapy horses who did lessons with a bit in his mouth for a leader to control him a little more clearly from the ground, while the rider had rope reins clipped to the rings of the halter-bridle we worked out. They essentially made us a custom-fit biothane grooming halter out of their thinnest material so it could go underneath a regular English bridle in place of the cavesson.

Also, Izzy's fabulously ugly orange reflective headstall came from their Western bridle line (I was adding the zilco flower hackamore so didn't need something with a cavesson), and they were willing to customize it with a horse-sized browband on a cob-sized headstall (she has a huge forehead given her otherwise little body).









I never had a need to deal with customer service on returns, but I did deal with customer service to finalize both those orders. Could be they're less interested in helping people who are dissatisfied, so I don't discount those bad experiences, but all in all I found them easy to work with.


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## bsms

I felt this was a design problem:








​ 
Essentially, when they make the bridle, the nose piece is held at a certain angle, set when they make it. If your horse's head differs, then it will not lie flat. It creates a line of pressure just like a rope would. This design allows the nose piece to wobble, and should result in it lying flat:








​ 
Regardless, I'll never order anything from Two Horse again.

No idea if I'll ever order another bitless bridle. I like the idea, but I'm not certain Bandit really cares. I thought he did, but after a couple of rides in ANYTHING different he's back to his normal self. Maybe it is just the change that interests him. If so, I've already got enough bits to label them 1-31 and pick them based on the calendar...:rofl:


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## waresbear

I don't know if I could ever bring myself to use synthetic yellow tack. A friend of mine loves flash, bling. When she say my work tack, plain as can be, but nice quality soft leather, she turned her nose up, too boring, lol. While I use all the silver & flash in the show pen, outside of the show realm, I am as low key & simple as I can be. I would say that yellow set up would be useful during hunting season no doubt.


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## bsms

I enjoyed this video:






FWIW, Bandit was NOT a "Happy Athlete" today. After 2 days of rain, wind and cold, today was sunny, calm...and not too cold. So I took Bandit out, cleaned the mix of pee & mud he used to cover half of his body, and tossed on my old Australian saddle. He was obviously a bit wound up, so I wasn't sure switching saddles types made the most sense, but...oh well.

I enjoy an English-style saddle, and an Australian saddle is a variation of a dressage saddle. Bandit was OK in the arena. A bit bouncy. So we went on the street.

"OMG! A TRASH CAN!"​ 
Nope. It isn't garbage day. But our neighbors are away, and it was *the same garbage can he's gone by for 2 weeks without noticing*. Just off the pavement, the ground slopes up and has spiny bushes. I took him between those and we got past...so I turned around and we went back and forth. 100' past in each direction, turn, go past. On pass 5 or 6, he snorted and relaxed. A little. 

Did a few more passes, on slack reins, then went on. 100 yards later...

"MUD! A 2 FOOT CIRCLE OF MUD! MUST ESCAPE!"​ 
He squirted sideways and I got ****ed. We went past, turned around, and went next to it. Then across it on passes 3 thru whatever. It was a trampled mud spot by the time we quit.

In his defense, some coyotes were yodeling within a 1/2 mile of us, and dogs in yards were barking back. A coyote entered our back yard yesterday for the first time and tried to kill a hen. Oreo lost some tail feathers, but managed to stay out of the jaws long enough for my wife to notice and run out. Not sure if the coyote would have fled from my wife, although he would have been wise to do so. But our 100 lb white German Shepherd raced out with his Mommy and the coyote decided discretion was the better part of valor, or better than a valorous death.

Bandit isn't afraid of coyotes, but he doesn't like them and it added to the tension.

Now he was worried about the trash can again, so we started making trips back and forth, passing the trash can and mud spot, again and again. Some might describe it as using body control to gain mind control - or at least mind togetherness. Which I think is valid, depending on reading your horse - as most things do. I might differ in believing that it only takes some simple cues. It seems to me left, right, forward and back are really the only ways a horse can move, with everything else a variation or combination of those.

But Bandit wasn't actually afraid. Just tense and unhappy inside. The corral was a sea of cold mud this morning, so I cannot really blame him. We finished with some time in the arena, again telling him to listen to me and not to the coyotes yapping nearby. When he settled, I quit. Below 50 degrees is "cold" for here, but I was sweating. Still, I think Bandit got some of the boogers out of his brain.

Not a bad day. More work than I enjoy, but it isn't fair to expect a horse to act calm and relaxed when he's spent two days straight in cold, rain and wind and mud. If there had been someone to go with me, it would have been interesting to see how he handled the desert. Then again, that might have been "A Desert Too Far" for today, so to speak. Good day to work on a deep seat and heels down.

DownUnder has a mono-flap model that uses an English girth on sale for a few more days for about $760 new. I'm also looking at and thinking about a used Passier Grand Gilbert from eBay. Probably won't buy either. My old Aussie saddle isn't a perfect fit, but he rode OK in it. Never touched the poleys, so maybe a used dressage saddle would be OK.


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## gottatrot

That video is great! 

I was thinking something similar last night, about how the easiest fix for things like jigging is to fix the reason for the tension. I took Halla out to the beach last night...it had been raining all day, it was time for the horses to get fed and it was only about a half hour before dark. When I brought her to the tie rack, I didn't have time to bother with bringing the saddle up to where she is comfortable, I just brought her down alone and threw the tack on a dancing horse. She was worried about the schedule and the time of day and what Amore was doing. I rode her down to the beach and she did fine, but was watching very intently everywhere for danger. It rained, which made her unhappy. On the way home, she jigged about half of the time, and once we got within 1/4 mile of home she was tossing her head up and down and I had to tell her to stop it. She knew it wasn't good behavior, and just a verbal reminder made her stop, at least for a few seconds at a time. 

Honestly, she did well considering all the factors. I wasn't unhappy with her, and just stayed relaxed. But I remembered the various times she had jigged and hopped and done other things instead of just walking calmly, and how I'd spent so much time circling her or turning her to stand quietly facing the other direction. I could stop the action temporarily, but usually this all just kept her worked up and we'd have the same issue whenever we started going the way we were before. 

But what really did work with her and other horses was to just remove the anxiety that caused the problem. I know that if I brought Halla out six times in a couple of weeks at this same time of day and with the same routine, she'd grow calm about it. She's learned that the routine is to go out a bit earlier, usually with Nala, and that is what makes her feel most secure right now. The other period of time when I had issues with her getting jiggy and excited was when her balance and strength were bad from vitamin E deficiency. My friend's horse that would always jig downhill was fixed by a chiropractor - he said her pelvis was "out," whatever that means, but regardless of if it is scientific or not, it was obviously a pain problem because he got it to go away. 

My point is that the horses could not move smoothly and use their bodies freely without shortened strides unless they were happy. Illustrated nicely by the dog in the video. :grin:

I think there is a difference between always making an excuse for a horse to not behave, and understanding why a horse is having difficulty being calm and amenable. Lots of things can make horses unhappy, such as Bandit was on his ride. What I've seen is that with work and training, horses behave much better when unhappy and we can at least get them out there if we wish versus having a really bad ride. But that doesn't mean they're necessarily going to behave perfectly or give us their best when they're not having a good time of it. This happens to me too, when I'm tired or cranky - I don't give my best either.


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## bsms

When I get hungry, I'm horrible to be around. Super grumpy. My family learned a long time ago when I get too unbearable - or perhaps too "Bear-like" - that some cheese or even, in a pinch, a candy bar can transform me into a human.

Bandit wasn't afraid. I know him well enough by now, and he knows me well enough, that he would have simply refused if it was too scary. He was just in a very distracted mood. I don't know if my way of handling it was best, but I never knew that raising kids either! Sometimes you just take your best stab and hope they - kids and dogs and horses - will forgive you when you blow it.

In retrospect, perhaps not the day to switch things and go Australian. But he handled it OK. I do enjoy an English-style saddle. The Thorowgood T4 Compact GP High Wither might be a good match, and has good reviews:








​ 
I think if he and I got to where we trusted each other, we might do well in an English saddle. It would probably catch a lot of folks by surprise, out where I live...

:cowboy:​


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## jaydee

I won't pretend to like Thorowgood saddles but a UK friend has one and she loves it, I'm not crazy about Wintec either so maybe its just a snobby anti-synthetic saddle thing?
To go back to the canter seat discussion - I learnt to ride in typical British fashion - so you start out in a sort of low level dressage type seat, posting trot and full seat canter. I only use 2 point when I'm in certain parts of a jumping course or extended canter and gallop and even then I'm more likely to use a light half seat especially if the grounds bad or I don't totally trust the horse I'm on


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## bsms

I probably use terms in a non-standard way at times, particularly since I'm a self-taught rider whose learned using texts written in the 20s-50s. I also learned a stirrup-centric approach, which time has convinced me is as oversold at a seat-centric approach, or any approach that says one way is superior for all riding.

If a jockey getting completely out of the saddle only increases his horse's efficiency by 6%, then do I really need to do it? Particularly since I don't race, have horses who can use some extra work, and seem to ride on horses who can get excited enough to want to ignore their rider.

Mia had an amazing western jog when she was in the mood. I got used to sitting her 'trot', which really was more comfortable to sit than her walk. She could cover ground nicely with a smooth, relaxed motion...as long as she didn't get excited!

Bandit had an incredibly stiff, harsh and fast trot. It is a legacy of using his left front leg crooked plus trotting a lot of miles with a rider who weighed in at over 30% of Bandit's weight. I used 'standing in the stirrups' to keep from irritating his back and to try to convince him to trust me with his back. We've made progress, but let him get excited at a trot and he immediately and almost instinctively goes rigid in his back.

A couple of weeks ago, I decided to start posting with him. I'm hoping he'll learn to take the speed of my motion as a cue for how he should trot. But bad habits die hard. I haven't posted for so long that I feel like a total beginner, while Bandit reverts to "_must protect my back_" mode very quickly.

He relaxes much better at a canter - provided I keep him under control. I'm not certain, but giving him his head seems to act like a cue for "give it everything you've got". And again, thinking about the videos I've seen of the relay races he was used in, that may make sense. If so, then I probably need to adapt my riding to his training. We don't have enough open and safe ground for me to insist on re-training him.

It can all be confusing, and yet, isn't horsemanship all about dealing with the horse you are on that day, at that moment? And isn't that horse a result of both breeding and past training, including negative training? My long term goals may include getting Bandit to do a relaxed jog and relaxed canter, but I keep coming back to what the lady who re-trained Mia and used to give lessons to my daughter said:

"_Sometimes you have to love a horse for who he is, and not for who he can never be_".​ 
I used to get upset or hurt when people told me I rode "wrong". But since I don't compete, and since I ride...well, unusual horses in unusual places...maybe wrong can be right, and the score that matters is simply "_Is the trend my friend with my horse?_" The longer I ride, the less I know but the more options I can try.

I really feel my horse is training me using the same techniques as I use with him: "This will profit you. This will profit you not. No reward behind Door #1, do you want to try Door #2?" Heck, "Let's Make a Deal" could be a slogan of my riding, and it works both ways.

BTW - if I do get an English saddle, I plan to try sheepskin with it. My neighbors all seem to accept my being insane, but that would confirm it:








​


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## bsms

Early Hollywood history involving Tom Mix's horse "Tony":

"Tom was tempermental, but it ran in streaks. Oddly enough, the horse Tony was very much like his owner. Pat Chrisman would rehearse him in some tricks for a picture and he would perform beautifully, but when it came time to shoot - nothing! He could be whipped, pulled, jerked, have bits changed, but still no performance. Come out the next morning and he would run through the whole scene with barely a rehearsal. Then he'd look at you as much to say, '_How do you like that? Yesterday I didn't feel like working'...

..._Still, Tony often took risks along with his master. On one film, a dynamite blast, ill timed by the special effects man, threw Tom and Tony 50 feet and knocked them both unconscious. Tony suffered a large cut; Mix's back reportedly looked as if he'd been hit by shotgun pellets." 
















​ 
- Hollywood Hoofbeats, The Fascinating Story of Horses in Movies and Television

Cool book for me since I love watching movies with horses. Tony became the first horse to have his hoofprints in cement in Hollywood.


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## bsms

A few years ago, I paid for a course from Larry Trocha. I liked it. It helped me. I really liked that one of the audio clips started with '_I've just a a bad ride and I want to describe what happened..._'. I like a trainer who admits he sometimes has rides where things don't go well.

Since then, I get emails from Larry Trocha offering training tips. This was in my email today, and I enjoyed it. I also like that he starts with, "_Here are some things that have worked for me..._" I'm impressed by trainers who talk about things that have worked without describing them as the only way to tackle a problem.

Bandit doesn't walk off, but sooner or later I'll meet a horse who does.


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## jaydee

I wouldn't want to use the backing up method on a horse that was really sharp about setting off before you ask them too or one that was 'hot' to ride because it puts their weight in exactly the right place to launch themselves upwards and forwards in a leaping or even a rearing action


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## bsms

In a military tech order for a plane, they distinguish between procedures and techniques. A technique is something that works for a lot of people, but it isn't mandatory and a different technique might work better for a different person or situation. A procedure is mandatory. Failure to follow a procedure is likely to result in damage to the aircraft or death/injury to the crew.

I like that Larry Trocha phrased it as a technique - something that has worked well for him with a variety of horses. I appreciate his willingness to admit that other ways might work better for someone else, or with a different horse or situation.

That said, jaydee, do you have any techniques you prefer?

For my part, all I did when Mia and Trooper tried a little walking off was to stop them, and then wait calmly. Wiggle my butt a little to stretch my legs and get comfortable, scratch their withers, sit there and sound like I was blowing boogers out of MY brain - basically, try to make standing still after mounting a good relaxing time for my horse as well as for me. (_"__Make the right thing easy and the wrong thing...well, ignore it mostly._") I didn't have a big enough problem for me to feel like backing them. 

Once in a while, Bandit will need a reminder to just stop and stand still. If we have any patchy grass growing near where I mount up, I like to mount close to the grass, get settled, then drop the reins and pat the withers, which is our signal for "_Go ahead and grab a few bites_". Nothing says standing still is a good idea like a chance for a dry lot horse to grab another mouthful or two of grass! 

Another thing that I believe helps prevent a horse walking off is to square their legs before mounting. It is surprising how many people get on a horse whose legs are not squarely underneath them. Hard on the horse for mounting, and a perfectly understandable reason for the horse to move around immediately afterward.


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## Hondo

I was advised early on by the ranch that Hondo needed to stand still for mounting, which makes sense, and which he does really well now, taking a half step forward if asked to line up with rock, stump, log or whatever mount assist is available, if any.

I was advised he should not start walking until I asked. I reasoned that when I mount, 99% or more of the time I'm ready to go. I reasoned that asking him was just like one more un-needed keystroke on the computer. If I've forgotten to put on my gloves, get out the GPS, need to do something to a pony lead, whatever, I'll say Ho Buddy, Wait a minute, hang on, as i mount. He stands after I mount until I do something indicating I'm ready to go, and he goes.

Otherwise when he sees my right foot enter the stirrup, and not before, he starts walking. Fine with me. Fine with him. That's the way be both like it.

So, there ya go. Different horses, different riders. Many of these rules rules rules are guidelines that don't necessarily need to be followed. IMHO, of course.


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> For my part, all I did when Mia and Trooper tried a little walking off was to stop them, and then wait calmly. Wiggle my butt a little to stretch my legs and get comfortable, scratch their withers, sit there and sound like I was blowing boogers out of MY brain - basically, try to make standing still after mounting a good relaxing time for my horse as well as for me. (_"__Make the right thing easy and the wrong thing...well, ignore it mostly._") I didn't have a big enough problem for me to feel like backing them.


Actually, I prefer your method over Trocha's. As you say, it's a technique, and works for many horses. But like @jaydee, I've seen some horses with issues, and that makes me want to not put the idea for those issues into the horse's head if possible.

My friend Booker's horse was taught to back up if he didn't stand for mounting. He turned it into a trick where he'd wait until a rider was just swinging a leg over, then he'd run backward three steps very quickly. Many people ended up on the ground in front of him. My friend cured him of the habit, but you always had to make sure he wasn't thinking about backing up when you got on.

Something that makes me nervous is seeing people getting on with super dangly reins or their hand nowhere near the reins. I've seen more than several horses get spooked right at the moment of mounting, and it's an easy time to do some awkward dismounts when you're not properly settled into the saddle. I usually don't have contact, but I have the ability to make contact within a split second if necessary.

My own horses were properly trained to stand for mounting. But mostly we take off the second my seat is in the saddle. You can tell them to stand, but if you don't say it, they walk off. I guess I like a choice either way, but mostly I prefer to just get going.


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## Hondo

Funny about the backing up. Oh, you want me to back up after mounting? Here, try this on.


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## bsms

I prefer a horse who waits. Maybe it is my physical awkwardness at getting into the saddle. I became a jogger at 13 because I was too awkward, clumsy and uncoordinated for team sports. Once, choosing teams in the 7th grade, a kid with a broken arm was picked over me - for football!

I suppose that is one of the reasons I no longer care if people dislike how I ride. If they saw me trying to play basketball or tennis or most any other sport at any time in my life, they'd KNOW why I look awkward on a horse at 58! Heck, I took jumping lessons for a few months in 1984/85. On the plus side, I was told I could come ride for free on most of their horses, which were largely very expensive ($20,000-80,000) horses whose owners would helicopter in for a ride 3-4 times a year. So I couldn't have been totally awful. But at the end, the gal instructing said she had no idea how I stayed on going over the jumps.

Come to think about it, I never saw her ride anything but western, so maybe she LITERALLY didn't know. No helmets back then, just get on a horse and start going over small jumps.

Still, there is no getting around reality:

*Some people mount a horse. I climb on top of one.*

Heck, I'd use a hammer and pitons if I didn't think Bandit would object!

I've been trying to find a wool felt pad with an accessory like this - so far without success:








​ 
Part of it is probably also an effect of jogging. Jogging tightens thighs in places where good riding needs them loose. It takes 30 minutes of riding before my hips and thighs loosen, and I have no idea how to ride for 30 minutes without climbing aboard my horse first.

So yeah, I like a horse who waits patiently. *Longsuffering* is an old word, but apropos. Patient is inadequate to describe what I need. Longsuffering fits. A horse who understands _"__longsuffering, bearing with one another in love"_.

Historical note from Hollywood: Remember the scenes in old westerns, when the posse would mount up and race off together? This would get the horses quite excited, particularly after 8 or 9 takes. It wasn't unheard of for the posse to need 1/4-1/2 mile to get the horses stopped and turned back.

So off camera, they had 1 or 2 people whose job was to watch and make sure everyone was safely mounted. They then would verbally cue the riders to race off. A guy who played bit parts in hundreds of westerns said he was in one where the watchers got it wrong. The posse raced off on cue, but the guy who wasn't all the way on fell and was dragged to his death.

That has nothing to do with mounting Hondo or anyone's personal preference.

Another irrelevant Hollywood story: Slim Pickens had a favorite movie mount called "Dear John". He said he and that horse spent 6 months fighting before they understood each other. They then rode together for years, although the horse would sometimes dump Slim Pickens - which wasn't easy. Slim taught him to buck on cue, so he could use it for comedic relief.

He didn't own the horse, and the horse eventually was retired. A few years later, he woke up in the middle of the night and told his wife "John's dead". Sure enough, Dear John was found the next morning, having died in the night, age 30. And, BTW, notice I'm not the first person to use a forward seat in a western saddle!


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## bsms

Old School mounting technique:



















_A couple of Bar Diamond boys trying to manage a bronc. Bar Diamond Bar Ranch, Texas. [Actually Bonham, Texas]_, 1906-1907

Erwin E. Smith Collection Guide | Collection Guide​


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## gottatrot

It can be almost like that if you run into "horse got excited but then I had to get off and adjust something." We're like, "Want me to hold him while you get on?" It doesn't mean the horse will stay completely still, but at least the rider has a better shot at making it into the saddle. Slightly more challenging is to try to hold the horse being mounted from atop your own horse.

In that second photo I don't know if the guy getting on really wants his hand inside the cheekpiece if the horse takes off. 
The advanced technique is to do it without the header. You have to get a quite shortened inside rein so as you're getting on you can make them circle into you while you get your other foot in the stirrup. Good friends usually are taking photos as you attempt this maneuver rather than offering to help. Of course those are not just excited horses in those old pics, but probably completely unridden horses that are also frightened out of their wits. Scary stuff.

My friend is always trying to catch shots of us mounting, here is another friend hopping on Booker, the horse that used to back up...and I forgot to mention the little pop up he'd do with his hind end to help you fall off if he did manage to get you off balance. 
My horses stand like this too, until I'm on, but whatever cue I give to take off, it's an unconscious one. All I know is that if I get on and want them to go, they do. But if I'm ponying another horse or doing something else, they usually stand until I'm adjusted. Somehow I relate this through my body language I guess. 









This conversation reminds me of the times I've tried to help people get on who were ponderously slow mounters and their horses were not trained to stand like statues. Try as you might, you can feel the horse slowly beginning to lean and then you just know that foot is going to move...right before the rider finally is thinking of committing. Best chance is to get the rider really high, like on a picnic table or pickup bed. I watched a friend get her horse lined up about five times before he got an inch too far away for her liking. Finally I tried to help, but we'd just get him perfect and then he'd step a foot away which would make his whole body just a tad too far from the mounting block. 

My personal most difficult mounts are when I'm off a 16.3 or 17 hand horse with nothing to use as a booster. On those horses at my height, my stirrups are so short they're almost beyond the flexibility of my leg to get my toe up there. I've had to put my toe in straight up, wedge it around the side of the stirrup and then jump and strain all my arm and leg muscles trying to hoist myself up there. Usually these horses have really tall withers so the saddle doesn't slip, so I kind of just have to use the saddle as a handle. People say "why don't you put the stirrup lower until you get on?" For some reason I never think of that at the time. Getting on 40, I probably won't be able to do that in 20 years or so.


----------



## knightrider

When my friend gave up riding, she sent me an English stirrup that becomes longer when you twist it so that you can mount, then twist it back to ride. It's hanging in my tackroom waiting for the day when I will need it.


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## Hondo

Lady at the ranch pointed out that short people have to have the stirrups higher and exclaimed, "It's just not fair!"

Looks like long toes are nothing new......


Erwin E. Smith Collection Guide | Collection Guide


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## bsms

I love browsing thru that website. Many pictures were posed, of course, but even the posed ones can show things like hoof trims, the sort of tack used, etc. Many of the cow horses back then were ponies. Look at the comparative size of man and horse in the pictures I posted. The average man in America back then was 5'7" tall and 140 lbs (based on Army physicals given to recruits). And look at how tall the cantle is on that saddle! I'd bet that horse is the size of Cowboy's 13 hands. And yeah, I've noticed how vastly easier it is to mount Cowboy at 13 hands versus climb aboard Mia's 15.3 hands!

Even with Bandit's 15 hands, I need to jump to get my toe into the stirrup. That is why I have to start with facing the rear. I need a hand on Bandit to keep my balance as I jump to get my toe in. But the stirrups are "twisted", and once my toe is in, I need to pull the fender away from Bandit's side as I swivel forward. Otherwise the edge of the fender will rub hard against him and irritate his side.

I'm also wondering now if trying to keep my hands forward and mount in a forward movement is best. It DOES keep the saddle stable on his back, but he's become irritable about mounting. Yesterday, I went back to having one hand on the cantle. We only rode about 15 minutes. Winds were running 25 gusts to 35, and neither of us was having fun. But I got off and back on every 5 minutes or so, and by the third mount he was back to normal. Maybe having both hands at the front of the saddle is digging it in there against his withers?

Too soon to know. Winds are currently 20 G 35. Hope they die down. Or I might go ride again anyways, and emphasize mounting techniques for today's 'lesson'. But being hit by gust after gust at 35 mph doesn't make for a fun ride. My house is in a funnel between two 9,000' mountain ranges. 5 miles from here, the winds are not too bad - but getting there would require about 3 miles thru paved roads and neighborhoods. Very frustrating. I may need to buy a stock trailer and start hauling them to flatter, softer ground with less wind. Might be good training for them anyways.

I believe a horse's eye acts primarily as a motion detector, with a much smaller area of good binocular vision to allow them to turn and look at the moving object. If you think of a horse's brain as a computer with limited processing power, that gives a horse a much wider range of vision than a human - nearly 360 degrees - plus the ability to see almost as well as a human, but achieves it with much lower demand on the computer than detailed 360 degree vision would require.

"Unless I am wrong, and I am never wrong...", all those waving branches and plants blowing in the wind overwhelms the horse's brain. When my Mom had Alzheimer's, we were told her brain had lost a lot of computing power. If we took her to a crowded & noisy restaurant, her brain couldn't keep up with all the stimulation and she would become violent. But if we took her to a quiet place, her brain could handle the load and she would enjoy a meal out. Same with stores. She would become violent at Costco's, but could shop in a smaller store with fewer sights and sounds.

Wind obviously interferes with a horse's ability to use their senses of hearing and smell. But maybe they are also like my Mom as her brain deteriorated. Maybe their brain becomes overwhelmed with stimulation, and they - like my Mom - become more reactive and prone to inappropriate defensive reactions. They can be taught to ignore it. Lots of ranch horses need to ride regardless of high winds. But maybe there was a good reason lots of horses in cities in the 1800s used blinders...and maybe Bandit's greater reactiveness in the wind is understandable, if not desirable.


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## whisperbaby22

I second the idea of getting a trailer. I used to ride down to my trail, when they paved everything over I got a cheap trailer to go the few blocks down there. Not only do I have a horse that will jump in the trailer, I save money on vet visits, and just enjoy my rides so much more. No riding down boring roads.


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## bsms

We've talked about it. It is a significant chunk of change to put out. OTOH, we have some incredible trails within an hour's drive, and I could be pretty happy taking Bandit 3 miles, parking beside the edge of the subdivision - and then striking out into the desert where the ground is much softer and the winds less than half of what we get here.


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## Hondo

I bought one off Craig's for $1,100.00. Not fancy and certainly doesn't measure up to the Jones's but it's durable and solid and pulls nice and straight.


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## bsms

^^ Durable, solid and pulls straight would be ample for me to take Bandit & Cowboy the <5 miles needed to put us on flatter land with fewer rocks and less wind. My pickup is rated for <4000 lbs towing, but should be OK with a small trailer plus a 700 lb pony and 800 lb (maybe 850, he's gained some weight since the last vet visit) Bandit. Not many people use two horses with a combined weight just a little over 1500 lbs.



gottatrot said:


> ...I had my new fleece saddle cover on for the first time (Christmas present) and it was very comfortable. @*bsms* sold me on the idea of trying one. It didn't slip around at all. My stirrups felt a bit longer suddenly due to the lift, and I asked Nala's rider if she thought it would squash down after a bit. She said it might take awhile since I don't sit down very much! :wink: ...


I'll be interested in how it works out. For a western saddle, they have two sizes. One just covers the seat, and the large extends part way down the thighs. My youngest daughter and I talked about them yesterday. She hadn't realized just how slick a slick seat saddle can be. She likes the cover for cold weather but doesn't care for it when it is hot. Mine hasn't packed down much, so I shorten my stirrups a hole compared to a naked saddle.








​ 







​
My naked saddle is in some ways like riding the Bates CC saddle I used to own. I took the knee and thigh blocks off, so the Bates Caprilli didn't offer much to help grab on to a horse if things got interesting. And of course, it had a flat cantle. My western saddle has a 4" cantle, but my butt doesn't touch it - normally. If my horse leaps forward, it would catch me, but emotionally - how I feel - it doesn't exist. I probably should have bought a 15" saddle instead of 16", but what is done is done. But if my horse suddenly stops, I slide forward unless my stirrups save me. I will stop sliding when I reach the fork and horn, but the only way to stay in one spot is to use the stirrups to prevent me from starting to slide.

Same if he jumps forward. I will slide across the seat until my butt hits the cantle. But if I haven't leaned forward in anticipation, I will slide. Heck, I'll slide even if I've leaned forward. It is just that I slide more balanced and am prepared for impacting the cantle if I lean forward.

For my last ride, a couple days ago, I removed the sheepskin and put on the bucking rolls. I figured Bandit bucked often enough that it wasn't silly to use bucking rolls. He didn't buck, and he rode OK for the few minutes we were riding (wind)...but I needed position, position, position to keep me solid. Stirrups under my CG, weight flowing into my heels, leaning forward as required, using the strength of my legs, not for grip, but to keep my weight flowing uninterrupted into my stirrups.

As an exercise in balance and forward riding and VS Littauer's "stirrup-centric" approach, it was great. The slick seat saddles are meant for horses who don't act up often and riders with ample time and experience to handle it if they do. They are meant to allow the rider to shift around, constantly, during a 10-12-14 hour ride. They are not meant for riding a horse who spooks.

But Bandit spooks a lot less, and a lot less hard than he used to do.

It only takes me 2 minutes to put a sheepskin on, and even less time to take one off. So the bucking rolls have come back off, and I think I'll make choices based on what I plan to do on a given day. Mostly ride in the arena? Take the sheepskin off. Normal ride? Use the smaller sized sheepskin. I need to try it more, but I think it keeps my butt from sliding while allowing my legs freer movement. Going out on a very windy day, or when Bandit is likely to be very fresh? Put the large sheepskin on, so my thighs can have some grip if things get interesting.

My saddle has no cushion built in. You can knock on it like knocking on a door. If anything, the sheepskin has polished it to a fine shine, almost mirror smooth. It sometimes takes living with something for a while to appreciate what it can and cannot do. Without the option of using sheepskin, I'd sell my saddle to someone with a laid-back horse who likes to ride long hours. I can appreciate the virtues of a slick seat saddle, but this is ridiculous:








​ 

As it is, my wife uses her sheepskin for cushioning on her Abetta saddle. She finds her Abetta too hard and too rough for her tastes. My daughter will probably use hers this winter and stop when the weather gets warmer. 

I've been thinking about getting an English saddle, but I also wonder if I might go western again. Dakota will makes their saddles with any tree you want (they use Steele trees). Maybe, for my style of riding, a barrel racing saddle built on a "J" tree. 24" long, round skirts, forward hung stirrups...maybe something like this but with less bling:








​ 
Or send my current saddle off to a saddle repair shop and have them replace the seat with rough-out leather, and maybe add some leather to the front of the cantle to cut the seat size down.

BTW - a horse trailer seems like it would be an easy thing to steal. Has anyone heard of any problems along those lines? Of course, if I bought an old trailer, maybe no one would WANT to steal it...:think:


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## Hondo

bsms said:


> ^^ Durable, solid and pulls straight would be ample for me to take Bandit & Cowboy the <5 miles needed to put us on flatter land with fewer rocks and less wind. My pickup is rated for <4000 lbs towing, but should be OK with a small trailer plus a 700 lb pony and 800 lb (maybe 850, he's gained some weight since the last vet visit) Bandit. Not many people use two horses with a combined weight just a little over 1500 lbs.
> 
> 
> BTW - a horse trailer seems like it would be an easy thing to steal. Has anyone heard of any problems along those lines? Of course, if I bought an old trailer, maybe no one would WANT to steal it...:think:


Mention a couple of things. Hondo has been hauled a lot in a trailer similar to the one I bought. Before that I attempted some training on a small enclosed two horse trailer that is on the ranch. He absolutely did not like it at all. Many horses I understand have some trouble with the claustrophobic effect of the small two horse trailer, although there are plenty around.

Padlocks are available that go through the safety pin hole in the tongue latch for theft prevention/deterrence. There are also some very heavy duty cables that can be ran through the wheels. But of course, anything is only a deterrent.

If you're mostly interested in running up the road a few miles you should be able to find one for what I paid if you're diligent in looking on Craig's.

Mine is very old, 1975, it has bias ply tires instead of radials, leaf springs instead of torsion, but the tires are 12 ply with a new spare and show very little wear or weather cracking. I did replace one spring hanger that was getting nervously worn. I power wire brushed the entire trailer and repainted except for the outside top. Wiring was more exposed underneath than I like so I redid that a bit. Boards in the floor were absolutely great. Old strong wood. I put down 1/2" of rubber matting. Pulled all four hubs to check for grease etc and everything was good there.

I think it was a fair deal. There is a cattle trailer that is capable (in a sqeeze) of hauling 5 horses down in your area for $2K. Not a bad deal but for your needs I still think you could keep it down around $1K. 

Mine was bought mostly for hauling to the backside of the ranch which is only 6.5 miles but it takes a 4wd in low range about an hour to get there.


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## Alhefner

bsms said:


> BTW - a horse trailer seems like it would be an easy thing to steal. Has anyone heard of any problems along those lines? Of course, if I bought an old trailer, maybe no one would WANT to steal it...:think:


There are ways to lock up the hitch to prevent theft. Here's just one device:


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## jaydee

I'm always on catch up with this Journal!!
When I have horses that won't stand still to be mounted or want to walk off as soon as your backside hits the saddle I usually find that patience is the best long term solution. You have to stay calm and relaxed (the hard part because its so easy to go tense!!) and keep asking them to stand still and then reward in some way when they do. 
My son created a problem with Honey by vaulting on her as she was going along (a boy thing!!) but that was useless for me and it took a lot of time and patience this year when he moved away to work and I had to train her out of something she'd been trained to do. I still have occasional trouble with her when we trailer to anywhere to ride and though she'll stand still when I get on I'm having to use a sort of 1 rein stop the minute I'm on to bring her round in small circles to get over to her that I don't want to set off at speed. It's working. I did a similar thing with Flo when she was first broke and couldn't stand still to save her life and would rear and leap if you tried to force the issue


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## whisperbaby22

Yea, the best theft deterrent is to buy an old crappy one, fix it up like Hondo, and don't paint it. I always keep the hitch locked, but don't worry to much.


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## bsms

These quotes come from a thread titled: "*How long does it take to train a horse??*" I had no reason to comment on that thread, but two answers stuck out as worth saving:



Foxhunter said:


> How long is a piece of string?...





boots said:


> Training a horse takes less than a minute and a whole lifetime...


I've mentioned on gottatrot's journal that I've made progress in getting Bandit to relax. We're well past the "must explode" stage - the '_violent spins or racing sideways thru someone's yard without looking'_ stage. Leading him yesterday morning (after he had been mostly cooped up in a corral for a week of cold, rainy weather), he jumped out of his skin a couple of times in the first few minutes, then did so a few more times during the next 15, and then spent most of the remaining hour...OK, but alert. Coming home, we had to pass some heavy equipment operating, including spraying water thru the air, belching smoke, etc. I had just about calmed him down and then that tightened him up again. At the end, he sighed and looked at me as if to say, "*I tried, but that wasn't easy!*"

Rode him in the afternoon. A little tension, but a half hour of riding settled him nicely - mostly arena riding, though. I was home alone and didn't want to push it without anyone I could even call if things went bad. Showing my age and some of MY internal fears about riding, I guess.

I've thought of selling him. We have no need at all for 3 horses, and the times when he ends up cooped in the corral for a week are hard on him. Trooper and Cowboy could live the rest of their lives in the corral and show no signs of strain. Under Cowboy's previous owner, he lived in a 20' by 20' stall, with lots visible but very little freedom to move. If standing still for 8 hours bothers them, they hide it well. These two could handle life in a corral until they died of old age, contented:








​ 
Bandit, like Mia before him, needs to move. He gets cabin fever - just like I do. I've spent my life jogging because I get tied up in knots inside if I can't get out regularly and move. Jogging (and now riding) keep me sane. I can't blame Bandit when I experience the same thing. If I had the option of selling him to where he could live in a large pasture, or be ridden regularly for a few hours a day, I'd seriously consider it. For his sake. That was part of why I swapped Mia - so she could go someplace where she could move more.

But I'm not likely to find someone with that arrangement in southern Arizona, and I'd be scared that Bandit would end up with someone of the "Just Do It!" approach - which he will do, but which obviously left him tense inside. I mentioned PTSD semi-jokingly on gottatrot's journal, but now I wonder if many 'problem horses' have a form of PTSD. Do horses who WILL go out and go where you point them sometimes do so with knots in their stomachs? Could that be part of why so many horses have low grade ulcers?

Weather and my wife's work schedule have interfered with riding in pairs for the last couple of months. Life does that, and it looks like I might be working 40 hrs/week for the next couple of months - good for income, but hard on riding. During some of Bandit's last few rides with other horses, I thought I noticed a deeper relaxation in him than what I've seen before. Doesn't happen solo, though. At least not yet. A year and a half of riding has not trained him to relax while riding out solo, and is (at best) just starting to get him there riding in pairs. My goal is to get the 'deep relaxation' - not lethargy, and not boredom, but interested calmness, alert yet relaxed - even if we go out solo. Then I could ride him 5-6 times a week much of the year. But I get the feeling it might take all of 2017 and more, even, to get there - *if we ever do*.

So...*"How long does it take to train a horse??"* Even if you use simple cues, and are a low-grade rider doing simple trail rides?

* "How long is a piece of string?" "Training a horse takes less than a minute and a whole lifetime..."*​ 
And RE-training a horse...takes longer! :icon_rolleyes: :wink:


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## Hondo

bsms said:


> These quotes come from a thread titled: "*How long does it take to train a horse??*" I had no reason to comment on that thread, but two answers stuck out as worth saving:
> 
> 
> 
> At the end, he sighed and looked at me as if to say, "*I tried, but that wasn't easy!*"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I mentioned PTSD semi-jokingly on gottatrot's journal, but now I wonder if many 'problem horses' have a form of PTSD.
> 
> 
> Then I could ride him 5-6 times a week much of the year. But I get the feeling it might take all of 2017 and more, even, to get there - *if we ever do*.


Not to assign human qualities to horses, but those sighs get me! They sure seem human to me.

I read up on PTSD and do take it seriously for horses. That's what got me to thinking about the heart rate monitor.

I'll bet if you took him out leading 5-6 times per week for most of the year you'd be having some nice solo rides before the end of the year?


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## bsms

Neither the wife nor the daughter felt like riding today, although the weather was perfect. But they did agree to walk Trooper & Cowboy along.

Interestingly, Bandit was content to stay between the other two, with Trooper in the lead. He normally gets upset if he isn't in front. But on the last few rides before the bad weather hit, he also didn't seem to mind. And in a couple of areas, where things were questionable, I noticed he paid very close attention to how Trooper was doing. For most of the last 18 months, his attitude has been, "_Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates? Morons!_"

But today, Mr '_The Only Opinion That Counts is Mine_' Bandit seemed interested - for advisement only, mind you! - in what Trooper and I thought. There was a 'strange' (ie, not seen before) trailer 'hiding' in some brush. He watched Trooper stroll by. He heard me talking to my daughter and ignoring the trailer. He moved about 12" over, but walked past the trailer, giving it the Stink Eye. Once past, he looked all the way around - walking forward, but looking 180 back - and watched Cowboy stroll past it. Then Mr Know-It-All snorted...and sighed.

He also ignored every trash can - and every yard had at least one - and every mud puddle along the way. And as it turned out, the puddle sharks stayed in their puddles.

If Bandit is willing to finally take some advice, maybe even LEARN from another being...we might have turned a corner. Trooper and Cowboy are both very experienced and very level-headed horses. He could learn a lot from them in a short time if he's finally WILLING to learn.


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## Hondo

Interesting again. Rimmey has always been a hot and nervous horse. And he is dominant over Hondo. But on 11 salt packing trips plus numerous other training trips he has been just perfect. Could not ask for anything better.

And the hope is that after more packing he will be better under saddle.

So you may be onto something there.


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## bsms

These are two posts I made on the over 50 thread. They are all about Bandit & I and what I need from him and what I think he needs from me, so I'm adding them to this thread. Long post warning, though!



bsms said:


> It was a beautiful morning in southern Arizona. Rest of the family had no interest in riding, so I rode Bandit solo. He was doing decent until we got closer to home and he heard Trooper screaming like he was dying. Bandit is #3 of 3 for food, but he seems to be #1 of 3 for deciding what to do - so he decided it was time to hurry home and take charge.
> 
> So I decided it was time to head back out, and we had a fight. Then we went a little ways back out, and had another fight, then went a little further out and I turned him back. Had one more heated discussion on the way home which resulted in our turning away to go down a side road we almost never take. Then Bandit calmed and we turned and went home.
> 
> I equate weight flowing uninterrupted into relaxed heels as "security". Blame VS Littauer for my belief, along with a former HF moderator who told me about his books (maura). I had shortened my stirrups today, but I spent so much time seeking "security" that, by the end of the ride, I could almost stretch my legs straight and still have my rump touching the saddle. That has to be the most my calf muscles have stretched in AGES.
> 
> Mia was an extremely willing horse who sometimes - too many times - was overcome with fear. Bandit, and maybe it is the mustang in him, is a lot less "willing" and a lot more inclined to "take charge". So we had some discussions today about the difference between "mutually acceptable compromises" and "Bandit is the Boss".
> 
> When I got home, my daughter told me Trooper got more exercise than Bandit did today, since he spent the entire time racing around the corral squealing. But hey! - at least I exercised two horses in the same time it took for one!





bsms said:


> I haven't tried the CA approach, but it isn't in line with how I want to treat horses. My horses spend the vast majority of their time together anyways, and Bandit is NOT the sort who would be bothered by working the heck out of him for 15 minutes. He's done relay races where he did 10+ mile legs. In some, I gather, he did two legs to fill in for another horse. My arena is an area originally flattened to build a house. When the house couldn't meet zoning requirements, we eventually bought the lot. It is 120' long - absolute maximum from paved road to where it drops 10' vertical into a wash. About 70 feet wide, max.
> 
> I suppose I could turn him a bunch to try to wear him out, but I'm pretty sure my 58 year old body will wear faster.
> 
> I also decided, shortly after I got him, that he was often scared (and he was, back then) and that a horse can learn trust the way a human learns it - by the other person proving themselves to be WORTHY of trust. That makes me responsible for being SUPREMELY REASONABLE. Telling a horse, "_We're going to do X because I enjoy it and it isn't very hard for you to do_" seems reasonable to me, and seems OK by my horse. Telling him, "_Now you've reached a place you feel comfortable, I'm going to kick your [expletive deleted] [expletive deleted]!_" does not.
> 
> If Bandit gives me The Middle Hoof Salute, I feel justified and "SUPREMELY REASONABLE" in kicking his butt - then and there. I don't believe in picking a fight with a horse, but I also refuse to back down if one is offered. I've come to really believe in mutually acceptable compromise. I want us to always be doing something both of us believe is reasonable. A compromise, perhaps, but a mutually acceptable one. And that means telling my horse sometimes that HIS choice is not acceptable to ME!
> 
> But that has to be done at the time the unacceptable choice is made. If he makes an unacceptable choice, and then 5 minutes later I kick his butt, what will he learn? Seems to me he'll learn, "_Be careful around the Psycho! You don't know WHAT will set him off!_"
> 
> But if he makes an unacceptable choice, and I immediately takes steps to block him from carrying it out, then I think he learns his choice was not acceptable and he'll have to try something else. "_We can do A, B, C or D. "A" is unacceptable to you. B is unacceptable to me. If you pick C or D, we will both be content._" That is a lesson that must be taught while C and D are viable options. If he cannot choose C or D, then he is trapped and I'm completely unreasonable, demanding...what? And he won't be able to answer it because I couldn't answer it - with anything other than "unquestioning obedience".
> 
> And I don't want unquestioning obedience. I gather some do, and they can make their own choices. In some circumstances, it probably is the right choice. But it isn't the right choice for me, riding the horses I like to ride where I like to ride them.
> 
> I've been reading a book about Hollywood horses. Slim Pickens rode a horse for the movies named John. Apparently they jumped a lot of things, and there is a picture in the book of Slim Pickens, on John, jumping over a buckboard in a western saddle, with rifle, field gear, etc. Slim Pickens was NOT a trained jumper. Apparently, a lot of the jumps scared Slim. But he'd let John consider the jump. If John was willing, then he'd do the stunt - and John always got them over anything John decided could be jumped.
> 
> That is what I want out of Bandit. Not the jumping - anything I'd jump in southern Arizona would likely land me on cactus and rock! But I want Bandit to assess the situation before us and tell me if WE can handle it. So far at least, if Bandit decided we can handle something...we can. All I need to do is get out of his way. And when he accepts responsibility like that, I've never seen him panic or try to back out halfway. Then his stubbornness becomes an asset.
> 
> I'm not slamming Clinton Anderson or anyone else for their choices. When Mia got scared, she sometimes did stuff that scared the tar out of me! The things I had success with in riding her, and what I've built upon in riding Bandit, is what I need in order to let go of my fear. *I need Bandit to trust me. But I also need to trust Bandit* in a way I never truly was able to trust Mia.
> 
> My way might be wrong for many people, but it is as much about teaching me calmness and trust as it is about teaching my horse.
> 
> Sorry for the long post. My approach doesn't make sense to a lot of people. It makes sense to Bandit and I, though, because he had a lot of fears inside him 18 months ago, and we've both made a lot of progress together. *He's a better horse for meeting me, and I'm a better rider for meeting him*. Can't ask for more than that.


Clinton Anderson has helped a lot of people, apparently. And I'm happy with that. If his methods work for some, and result in a confident & relaxed horse...good for them! But it just isn't me. And I've never been good at fooling my horse, not for long, so what I do has to make sense to me.


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## Bondre

I truly believe that, while the CA approach may give results with a bolshy horse, if your horse is truly scared then this gung-ho 'I'm the boss and you best do as you're told' approach will only cause more damage. 

I tried the CA method for barn sour horses with Duna. I did a couple of sessions with her. Work her hard up and down the fence, and take her away from the fence to relax. Did she learn to relax where she was supposed to? NO SHE DIDN'T. She was tense as anything from all the apparently meaningless running up and down the fence and sharp turns. This was when I realised that the most meaningful reward for a horse is to stop work - end of lesson - and that trying to create perceived rewards by giving them a hard time and then letting up on them is absolutely NOT the kind of training I want to get into. So that was my brief flirtation with CA, lasted less than two days, and I'm all the better for not following on with it.

There are so many other, infinitely preferable approaches to training a nervous horse. None of them are fast. But I'm not a trainer that needs to turn horses around in 60 or 90 days. I'm sold on clicker training and R+. It worked wonders for Macarena - not that I'm very good at it - but it seems that, mistakes on my part and all, it was still highly effective at rebuilding our relationship. The clicker is not a necessary part of the equation. It's just a useful signal as it greatly helps the human to clarify their message to their horse. But the important thing is the R+. Motivation. Give your horse a reason to do things. Make him want to. 

That's what your past year with Bandit has been all about. You've been finding a common language. Finding what makes him tick and what he wants to do. Telling him what you want to do. And gradually aligning your mutual desires. It isn't fast at first - but when it starts to happen, it snowballs.


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## gottatrot

My friend used CA methods with her mini horse to start him. They worked very well, but your typical mini is a very bold and tolerant critter. 

I tried CA methods to teach Amore how to get into a tiny two horse straight load trailer. She was happy to jump into any larger trailer, but absolutely would not get into the small one. We thought since she was the smallest horse and we wanted to bring four horses out in one large three horse trailer and this tiny two horse, Amore should be the one to ride in the tiny trailer. 

I tried doing the lunging near the trailer, "working the horse" near the frightening object. She lunged fine away from the trailer, as taught. Once closer, she grew more afraid and started running up on the ramp, tripping and hitting the sides of her legs as she stumbled over it because it scared her (the ramp could not detach from this trailer). She is one that will harm herself while frightened, thinking so hard about self preservation that she will fall in a hole or fall down. 

This all made the trailer much more frightening than it was before, so then I had to spend a lot more time calmly desensitizing her to it after I gave up on the CA method. After several days of work, she walked calmly into the trailer and stood. Once I fastened the butt rope (before tying her solidly because I didn't want her to pull back - mistake), she crouched and shot backward, skinning the hair off her spine as she shoved herself under the butt rope. 

She still trailers fine in all other trailers, but Booker who weighs about 1,000 lbs compared to her 775 lbs was the one who had to ride in the little trailer. We'd stuff him in there and he'd ride along, completely happy in there all alone. 
Could I have trained Amore to ride in that trailer? I'm sure I could have, but it wasn't worth the possible injuries that might have occurred.

I agree that the mutual desires of horse and rider have to align. I will freely admit that if I have a desire and it seems the horse will never agree to that desire, I will abandon it. It's not that I'm lazy or not determined about training, but sometimes I think about how much work it will be to make the horse do something versus how much work it will be to find a way around it, and I will choose the easier way. As Nala's rider says, "Is it worth it?" If it's worth it, I will put in the hours and the time. If it's not, I will abandon my idea of this perfect behavior my horse should have and work around it.


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## horseluvr2524

gottatrot said:


> she crouched and shot backward, skinning the hair off her spine as she shoved herself under the butt rope.


Shan did this same thing, I believe it was the first year I had her. Surprised all of us and put off riding for a while until it grew back (she took it right down to the skin clean off). Its amazing to think how far she has come since then. She's gone from being the unpredictable, sometimes high strung nutcase to my steady eddie who I can always trust when it comes to trailering! She's always calm, cool, and collected whether alone or with buddies in the trailer. She loads in anything too, although I don't think either of us are too keen on slant loads. I prefer stock or straight loads, especially the straight loads with the aisle and door in front of the horses (many warmblood trailers are made this way). I've just seen too many accidents happen in a slant load.


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## bsms

As is often the case, there has been a roaming discussion about saddles and saddle fit. Thought I'd add this:

When we're walking thru the desert, I can reach back and comfortably slide my fingers about an inch under the rear of my tree. I always feel under the front when I'm positioning the saddle and place it so Bandit's shoulder barely makes contact with the front of the tree with his leg out front (when the shoulder blade is full back). Any time his leg is not fully forward, I can easily slide my fingers 1-2 inches under the front of the tree.

I believe my saddle tree has too much rock to be ideal, although it probably fits better than many do. It really bothers me that so many western saddles come in two sizes: standard and wide. 

This is the Steele form that is an exact match for the tree used by our old Circle Y. It is on Mia's back, but Trooper's back is almost identical to Mia's - and my youngest has used that Circle Y on Trooper for 8+ years now:








​ 







​ 
That is Steele's "D" model:

"_Standard Quarter Horse (SQ) - Approximate 92º front rafter angle. Good front flare, bow and upturned tails to avoid bridging and bar edge pressure points_."

The tree used for Mia, which also fits Trooper extremely well, is the "J":

"_Semi-Quarter Horse (Semi)/Arabian (Arab) - Steeper front and rear rafter angle and closer-spaced bars relative to Standard Quarter Horse fit when positioned at standard spread. In addition, sufficient bow (rocker) enables this fit to conform well to the short Arabian back having a narrow wither dropping off quickly to the shoulder._"

In talking to Steele, they recommended a modified SE for Mia:

"_Mule (Mule) - Reduced bow and steeper front rafter angle to conform to the distinctive mule back. Helps prevent the back of the saddle rocking up when cinched, which creates tremendous pressure under the stirrup leather when the rider's weight pushes it back down._"

Steele Saddle Tree LLC - Fit To The Horse

They offered to modify, at no cost, an SE to include a little more flare to the front, which is what they felt would result in a near-perfect fit for Mia. I chose to go with a more standard shape so I could feel good about selling it later if I wanted. Telling someone the saddle had a "mule tree" instead of "Semi-Quarter Horse Tree" would limit my customer base! I also felt better about having any error in fitting be in getting a saddle with too much curve rather than too flat.

Combined with rear skirts that were deliberately intended to lift away from my horse's back, it makes my saddle look like it has too much lift to the rear. But my 165 lbs (167 after Thanksgiving and Christmas) don't need quite as much 'weight distribution' as some.

And of course, my daughter riding Trooper lightly with significantly less weight distribution isn't a problem either. I also never noticed any signs of concern or bother using her saddle with Mia or Trooper even when I weighed 185.

I think "Don't poke!" is crucial. For rides under 3 hours/day & 4-5 days a week, I suspect most people don't need to worry about weight distribution. I also believe the old cavalry practice of dismounting every 1-2 hours, loosening the cinch and walking beside the horse for 10 minutes before remounting covers a multitude of sins. I'll admit Bandit always seems refreshed and more enthusiastic after such a break.


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## tinyliny

i've read that even the best fitting saddle will still have the effect of cutting off , to some degree, the blood circulation to the skin right under the tree. I , too, dismount every 1.5 hours and walk for 10 minutes. refreshes me AND the horse, and allows the blood circulation to come back fully to that area.


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## jaydee

The older I get the more likely I am to be seen walking or even jogging alongside my horses. If it isn't my knees its my feet and if it isn't either of those it's my backside - more often its all three!! Lou seems to appreciate it but she's not a very stoic horse and I think she believes that working horses to hard is very over rated


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## phantomhorse13

tinyliny said:


> i've read that even the best fitting saddle will still have the effect of cutting off , to some degree, the blood circulation to the skin right under the tree. I , too, dismount every 1.5 hours and walk for 10 minutes. refreshes me AND the horse, and allows the blood circulation to come back fully to that area.


I have to wonder.. how long does circulation have to be cut off to cause damage? Or is it more a combination of how much and for how long?

The reason I wonder is that lack of circulation from pressure is what I was taught causes the white hairs that hallmark an ill-fitting saddle. However, if even the best fitting saddles are still doing it to some extent.. why don't 100 mile horses all have marks? Is the circulation blockage minor enough it doesn't cause damage? Is the duration not long enough (as generally there are holds every 2-4 hours, which at least would remove the rider from the saddle if not the saddle from the horse entirely) to cause an issue? 

I also wonder if the speed of the horse (and therefore the position of the rider) affects this in some way. I know my body complains a lot more while riding at a walk and I will certainly get off and stretch my legs regularly at that speed. But at a trot or canter, I can and do ride the entire 2-4 hour segment without issue. Does the movement of the rider while posting (or even shifting around while sitting a jog or sitting a gaited horse's gait) help keep the tree from creating such strong pressure points?


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## bsms

Bedsores (Pressure sores) Causes - Mayo Clinic

Bedsores (Pressure sores) Risk factors - Mayo Clinic

"The time it takes for a pressure ulcer to form will depend on:


the amount of pressure
how vulnerable a person's skin is to damage
Grade three or four pressure ulcers can develop quickly. For example, in susceptible people, a full-thickness pressure ulcer can sometimes develop in just one or two hours. However, in some cases, the damage will only become apparent a few days after the injury has occurred."

Pressure ulcers - Causes - NHS Choices

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressure_ulcer

"Human patients with prolonged exposure to pressure above 4.26 kPa (Chang and Seireg 1999), just above the capillary closure pressure, are considered at risk for pressure ulcer formation. In this study, the critical pressure of 15.3 kPa [2.2 PSI] at walk is >3 times higher; the healthy control group shows (Pmean walk: 7.8 kPa [1.1 PSI]) that the horses tolerate much higher pressure than human patients. Although the mechanisms of developing pressure ulcers and saddle sores are assumed to be similar, a possible explanation for the horse's higher tolerance is that human pressure ulcers occur when the patient is permanently confined to a bed or to a wheelchair, whereas in horses, the pressure load of the saddle and rider is only transient and during motion (Herrman et al. 1999)....

...Werner et al. (2002) attempted to define an upper tolerated pressure value in relation to back pain symptoms. Mean pressure values of >15 kPa and maximal pressure values of >35 kPa [5 PSI] measured at the sitting trot correlated with back pain. Compared to the present results, the mean pressure values were clearly lower. This could be due to the fact that in Werner et al. (2002) the whole saddle area was taken into account and not a selected area of interest (Fig 1) as in the study reported here. In general, much lower pressure values occur in the peripheral region of the saddle area, which consequently lowers the average pressure values....

...The mean pressure of the healthy horses (Group C) at walk was 7.8 ± 1.7 kPa, which can best be compared with the cranial third of the saddle area in the study by Meschan et al. (2002), which lay between 7.4 and 7.6 kPa for the saddle with the lowest overall force (i.e. the best fitting saddle).

At trot, the values in the study by Meschan et al. (2007) are around 14 kPa in the lowest overall force saddles, whereas in our study the mean pressure was 9.8 kPa in the area of interest (Fig 1). This might be because the tree size with the lowest overall force was not sufficiently well fitting, leading to higher pressure in the more dynamic gaits. In our case, all horses in the control group had individually fitted saddles, and therefore showed a lower pressure....

...Beside the normal force, shear forces also enhance the development of pressure ulcers (Chang and Seireg 1999; Linder-Ganz and Gefen 2007). It must be assumed that the area underneath the headplate is the area with the most shear force, since there is significant muscle movement due to the pro- and retraction of the front legs (von Peinen et al. 2009). Furthermore, the stirrup bars overlie this region and directly transmit the weight of the rider to the withers area, especially in the situation where the rider stands in the stirrups. If the saddle construction fails to distribute and/or absorb this pressure, a local peak pressure point occurs. Therefore, it has to be emphasised that, due to the exposure to pressure and shear forces and because of the anatomy of the horse, the withers area underneath the headplate is probably the key area to be considered when fitting a saddle."

Relationship between saddle pressure measurements and clinical signs of saddle soreness at the withers - Von PEINEN - 2010 - Equine Veterinary Journal - Wiley Online Library

*"Results:* With foam filled panels stride maximum pressures under the hind part of the saddle increased by 7–12% and the area under the saddle with a stride mean pressure >11 kPa increased by 114 cm2 in trot and 127 cm2 in canter. With v-system girthing, the latter variable also increased, but only by 53 and 38 cm2 in trot and canter, respectively. In addition, stride maximum pressures under the front part of the saddle tended to increase (≤9%).

*Conclusions:* Both flocking material and girthing have a significant influence on the saddle pressure and should thus be considered in saddle fitting. Wool seems a better flocking material than foam of the type used in the current study. For girthing, traditional placement seems equally good if not better than the v-system. However, further studies are needed to show if these results are valid for a larger population of riding horses."

Influence of girth strap placement and panel flocking material on the saddle pressure pattern during riding of horses - BYSTR[]M - 2010 - Equine Veterinary Journal - Wiley Online Library

Offered as food for thought. Not sure what I think.


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## gottatrot

Foam panels do seem much harder and they don't change. Wool tends to be softer and more forgiving of the natural, small assymmetries of the back muscles. 

I've seen people put white hairs on horses' backs from shorter rides of less than an hour. It seems that if you have enough pressure or force it will cause actual damage that is different from just having the circulation restricted. My belief is that most often those white hairs are from "poking" type of pressure rather than an even pressure from a well fitting saddle that just lasts too long. I know someone who put white hairs on the horse's back from riding bareback several times a week, although I've known other people who rode bareback for many years and the horses' backs were great. I am guessing it has to do with how you sit on the horse and whether you move around or just sit "deep" with your seatbones on the horse's back muscles. 
The same rider tried to ride Amore bareback and she kept trying to buck. I am guessing she just wasn't tolerant of that pressure, however it was happening.


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## bsms

From the Mayo Clinic link on humans:

"Three primary contributing factors are: 

 *Sustained pressure.* When your skin and the underlying tissues are trapped between bone and a surface such as a wheelchair or a bed, the pressure may be greater than the pressure of the blood flowing in the tiny vessels (capillaries) that deliver oxygen and other nutrients to tissues. Without these essential nutrients, skin cells and tissues are damaged and may eventually die. This kind of pressure tends to happen in areas that aren't well-padded with muscle or fat and that lie over a bone, such as your spine, tailbone, shoulder blades, hips, heels and elbows.
*Friction.* Friction is the resistance to motion. It may occur when the skin is dragged across a surface, such as when you change position or a care provider moves you. The friction may be even greater if the skin is moist. Friction may make fragile skin more vulnerable to injury.
*Shear.* Shear occurs when two surfaces move in the opposite direction. For example, when a hospital bed is elevated at the head, you can slide down in bed. As the tailbone moves down, the skin over the bone may stay in place — essentially pulling in the opposite direction. This motion may injure tissue and blood vessels, making the site more vulnerable to damage from sustained pressure."








​ 
I'm guessing, but the white spots on Trooper's withers came when he was loaned to the ranch where he was also spurred raw. There is no hard bone underneath, so maybe sheer, possibly combined with intense pressure when used for roping with a too wide saddle?

Seems to me mixing things up ought to help - not all walking or all trotting, but mixing a variety of gaits. Maybe combining sitting deep sometimes with two point or posting. Varied leg position.

It would be interesting to know if endurance training toughens the skin in some areas too. It certainly works that way on MY feet. Maybe skin needs time to adapt, just as muscle does?

When I had English saddles, I originally used cotton underneath. Got rid of that fast, though, because they would sweat and the cotton would hold it. It seemed to work better with a woven wool blanket underneath:








​
I wondered if thin wool felt would work, but never tried it.


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## Hondo

bsms said:


> Maybe skin needs time to adapt, just as muscle does?


Early on at the ranch I was told that was absolutely true. They are not correct about everything, but a lot.

I do know that my own personal, "pressure points" do tend to toughen up with use 

Edit: Maybe the white spots came from a too narrow pommel pinching. Don't think it would have to be on bone for that.


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## bsms

Just watched a 45 minute video by Larry Trocha on selecting a western saddle so it will fit the rider. I don't think he has the full video posted on YouTube unless you're on his mailing list. I found it interesting. My saddle has most of what he says makes a good saddle. He starts, though, with talking position, and demonstrates on a saddle stand what he considers optimum. 

It is probably best to point out that he frequently references sitting the stop and feeling good staying on in a spin, although his conclusions differ from mine. Oh well, can't expect a follower of Littauer to fully follow Trocha's advice. But here is what he considers optimum for sports like cutting and reining:








​ 
He definitely likes a shorter stirrup. I suspect part of my difference is that I view stirrups as things you constantly move around. It would be interesting to try his position...but...yeah, a forward seat kind of guy feels really weird trying to ride slouched on his pockets! And I believe a past thread would reject HIS riding as "bad equitation".

That is OK. He pointed out that good "equitation" had little to do with good cutting and reining and being good at sitting fast stops and spins. "TOO VERTICAL" - and he is right.

I also believe we build habits and automatic reactions as we learn to ride. And just as maura (who recommended Littauer) said she felt far more secure in her jump saddle than a western, after 50+ years of competing and teaching jumping, it may well be that MY reactions and habits have already been set. For me to react right, I might need to ride like I ride because what I learned from Littauer has become the foundation for my reactions. 

Only had time for 15 minutes of riding before sunset, and the sun was in Bandit's eyes (and mine) and he was frisky and...we did some animated riding in our little arena, until he blew the boogers out of his brain. He settled and relaxed just as we needed to stop...not optimum, but life hands those things to you sometimes.

To have used Trocha's position while Bandit was bouncing around, trying to canter and not trot, doing a half-canter/half-trot spastic something or other, trying to tell me HE would set the pace and the heck with me, etc - I honestly cannot imagine it. But I also bet Larry Trocha could have used his position and rolled a cigarette while Bandit was fussing.

I did like what he said about a saddle sitting you close to the horse. If I was going to fault using sheepskin, it would be that it lifts you higher off the horse's back. As Bandit does fewer and fewer violent reactions - I cannot remember the season, let alone the month, it was when he last spun 180 degrees - I can see where "butt velcro" may become less needed and getting closer become a higher priority.

I also liked that he freely admitted that someone with different interests than cutting and reining might well choose a different saddle. He did, however, say a good cutting or reining saddle was also a good all day trail saddle - IF it was made right. He also felt most cutting and reining saddles sold were built wrong.

I may not always follow Larry Trocha's advice, but he seems to have thought things out, gives explanations, and doesn't worry if someone else with different goals takes a different approach. I suspect if he had watched me this evening, he might have asked, "_Did you feel good? Did you feel like you would go anywhere your horse went? Did you feel secure and balanced? Yes? Good...._" I may not follow his advice, but I respect it - AND how he gives it.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

You are never too set in your ways to learn a new way of doing things. After twenty-five years of riding and approaching horses one way, I did a 180 degree turn and re-learned everything. 

Don’t sell yourself short. Like most things in life it depends on how badly you want to do them.

Perhaps something to serve as inspiration….

I just watched a video posted by Remali on another thread http://www.horseforum.com/horse-videos/best-742041/#post9688681 
If you don’t know much about Sheila Varian, she was a breeder and trainer of Arabian horses in the Modern Vaquero traditions.

There were a few things that I wanted to say about the way the rider (Lester) approached working with that horse and how it was very different from the advice and common training methods you hear. However, it seemed inappropriate to do so on that thread, as the video is in memorial to Shelia. Who has since passed.

It has much to do with things you talk about here BSMS. If you have about 25 minutes to spare to watch, I’d be interested to hear what you see….


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## gottatrot

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> There were a few things that I wanted to say about the way the rider (Lester) approached working with that horse and how it was very different from the advice and common training methods you hear.


I agree very much with how the rider worked that horse in the video. I've been on similar rides with very green horses, just letting them get comfortable and not asking them to do much except be calm. I think there's a lot to be said for having a horse mostly packing a rider on their first trail rides rather than trying to get them to remember all the cues they've learned or to try to have them focus on the rider. 
Several years ago I took a young Arab out on a trail ride and she was very green, had never been out in a snaffle yet. I think she'd had about 2 short rides outside, in a bosal.

So I just followed a couple other horses and rarely and only lightly ever cued her, mostly just riding off my seat. We went up and down some steep grades, crossed some streams and more but she did really well just following the others. I think it is a good way to help them develop confidence so they can think more about the rider and cues later when they are not so overwhelmed.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

@gottatrot

This has always puzzled me.

So why is it that very few try to apply those same calm exploratory methods to a horse who needs re-training?


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## gottatrot

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> So why is it that very few try to apply those same calm exploratory methods to a horse who needs re-training?


Agree 110%. The way I see it, green means very little training, but it also means "green to me." Any horse I have not worked with very much is green to me and my riding, so should be treated in much the same way as a very green horse. Now if I ride a horse for twenty minutes and they are very calm and seem to understand my cues very well, then we can progress rapidly forward. But if they don't? Then they are still green "to me," and I need to treat them as if they know hardly anything until they learn what_ I _mean by this cue or that one.
Then there's also green to the environment. You can have a very experienced horse that is green to a new setting, and they also should be treated like this IMHO.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

That is exactly what we did/have been doing with Oliver. Oliver (and Caspian) has in essence been one big experiment. 

Stubborn, Hot, Ornery, Pushy, Studdish, dead sided, hard mouthed were a few of the words used to describe him. My trainer assessed that whatever training he had was not good. He made me start back at square one and re-lay a completely new foundation to build on.

I started back at the beginning, the VERY beginning with things he should have been taught as a yearling. From lifting feet to standing to be caught, Yielding to the lightest pressure, to lead manners. We re-taught everything using the least amount of pressure and a lot of waiting. 

To be clear, misbehaving was corrected quickly and fairly but as long as he stayed within the parameters, he was allowed to take his time, explore and investigate. He caught on very quickly. Once and done.

I remember standing up to my waist, maintaining steady light pressure on the lead, in a flowing creek of cold (for Texas) water for more than five minutes, waiting for him to take one step forward towards me. Another five, another step. Five more… eventually he was standing with me in that creek and splashing, happy to be there. I was soaked, cold, pruney, with runny mascara and happy with his progress.

A friend, who was a trainer quipped at the time that he could have gotten the job done in two. I have no doubt but, it wouldn’t have been Oliver’s choice to come to me because I asked and he was trusting me, it would have been because the pressure was overwhelming. We have had no problems crossing running water, stagnant water or entering a lake since. In my mind, that twenty or thirty minutes extra I took, saved me time under saddle in the long run.

I read an article about Sheila Varian and her thoughts on using "modern" vaquero methods stuck with me.

Over the years, she has refined her approach to fit today’s better-bred horses. “I’ve learned to get softer and softer with my training,” says Sheila. “The Vaquero way is a long-term training approach, but it’s not [traditionally] a soft training approach. With today’s softer horses, the rougher methods they used back then are not necessarily as productive. If I don’t frighten a horse from the beginning, the better and easier the training is. I’ve done those old ways, and in truth, for me it works better to not be so harsh.”

She adds, “I hear people use the phrase ‘taking things slowly.’ Well, I call it taking things easily, meaning being easy on the horse both mentally and physically. The easy way is often the quickest way to train a horse. I still ask a lot of my horses, but I don’t do things that frighten them or make them defensive. I’ve found that this approach to training goes a lot quicker in the long run because I don’t then have to go back and fix something that concerned the horse.”

It blows my mind that more non-professional people who train aren't incorporating the concept of "the slower you go the faster you get there" idea in training.


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## Hondo

@gottatrot & @Reiningcatsanddogs Buckets of likes to you both on the last posts. Can the video be purchased as DVD? I'm on a Verizon connection.

@Reiningcatsanddogs 180 degrees from where you seem to be now sounds like a very scary place for the horse.

I checked the price for the DVD on her life but it's out of my price range.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Hondo, a hundred and 180 degrees ago was a scary place, it was ignorant.

Sheila has some things on youtube. This one gives you a bit of the flavor of what she was about. Very logical and very horse centric which is why I liked her.






I take it that you couldn't view the vid? I found it on you tube:


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## bsms

Had to download the video overnight since our Internet is VERY slow in the evenings. I'll watch it after work. But on training:

Parelli, Anderson and others learned to train horses by starting hundreds quickly. OK results FAST defined success. Others learned training in 'barns' with many horses, lots of turn-over, and to become a trainer means to get results in weeks. MAYBE a few months. OK results FAST = Good Trainer! "_Let's have a challenge, and see who can start a horse in 3 days!_"

And "experienced" riders applaud. After all, clinics are taught by people who learned to get OK results fast. Many shows start with 3 year old horses. And shows and even most competitions center on arena riding because you cannot have a paying audience watching what a great rider you are out by yourself in the mountain (or beach, or desert).

"Proper riding" is riding that shows off your well-trained and TOTALLY obedient horse. Instead of judging a cue by "Can the horse easily understand it?", we judge by how little obvious movement our HANDS make. So when you watch a reiner or a dressage rider, try watching their HEELS. I laugh if someone tells me dressage wants the foot straight ahead because all the top dressage riders I've watched - and watching them in slow motion is enlightening - are too busy giving cues with spurs to have their toes straight ahead!

People train for a "spur stop" because using the reins is too easy to see. Or people use massively draped reins so the weight of the heavy leather reins applies pressure to the mouth while the rider thinks, "_My hand barely moves! My reins are slack! I'm riding without contact!_"

For shows, maybe that is tolerable, although I find it silly. But instructors who are qualified as instructors BECAUSE of their show record then teach new riders to ride "properly" by trying to imitate what they did to win those shows.

I rode Bandit for 15 minutes in the arena last night because it was getting dark by the time I got him out, but I merely rode some of the fresh off of him - let him move enough, after being cooped up in the corral, to get the boogers off his brain. But because I'm not show oriented, and because I'm self-taught, I wasn't worried about how I looked, or trying to control his every step, or using spurs to cue instead of my total body (arms, legs, voice, reins, whatever). I could focus on BALANCE, not POSITION.

Not that I'm totally free! I learned from Littauer - but Littauer wrote for beginning riders on experienced horses who would soon need to jump on cue - NOT for beginning riders riding greener horses on the flat - but also in the wild. And "wild", to a horse, includes human neighborhoods - until they have ample experience in human neighborhoods! But my riding position, while balanced, and certainly good enough, may not be optimum for riding a green horse outdoors in a western saddle of the flats.

Don't have time to continue my rant - good thing, maybe - but I've come to believe a horse OWNER is always a trainer, but we owner-trainers should ignore much of what the professionals teach. What a pro must do in 30 or 60 days has nothing to do with the best way for ME to work with a horse for the next 20 years...

And I need to think and play with some of the ideas Larry Trocha teaches. For my riding, on my horses, in my western saddle...maybe the BEST way of doing it is different than how I learned riding Mia n an Australian saddle after reading Littauer. Maybe. Maybe not. But unless I experiment, how will I know?


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## knightrider

I am loving all these posts.
Years ago, I spent a week at a dude ranch that took beginning riders for 6 hour rides. I couldn't imagine how they pulled it off. They told me it was easy--they made the beginners get off and walk for 15 minutes out of every hour. It kept the horses and riders from getting sore.

About training horses slowly, I often joke to people that I have a lifetime to teach my quirky Isabeau what she needs to know, so I don't have to rush her. She is so interesting. Many trainers insist that for a horse to learn to do something they don't want to do, you have to "move their feet" in the place where they'd like to be, and let them rest in the place where they don't want to be. 

But Isabeau gets bored and wants to move. I've discovered that sitting on her quietly and thinking about stuff is much more effective in getting her to go where she doesn't want to go. After a bit, I feel her start swinging her head and shifting her feet and I know she'd rather go where she didn't want to go than not go at all. "Moving her feet" just makes her more agitated and upset, and if it continues, she loses her mind, and if even that continues, she hurls herself to the ground.


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## bsms

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> ...It has much to do with things you talk about here BSMS. If you have about 25 minutes to spare to watch, I’d be interested to hear what you see….


I finally had the chance to watch it last night. Haven't watched the other posted videos yet. And as I watched it I agreed with what the rider was doing...but was also very jealous. 

If I understood the situation, the stallion had a solid foundation in the arena, and understood paddocks, but didn't know how to be ridden on the ranch. The video showed his first ride in open country. And I loved much of what the rider did. He accepted that the stallion would need to learn where to put his feet, and how to balance on a small slope - simply because he had not been exposed to those. He wanted the stallion to think! It has taken me a long time to understand that there are people who do NOT want a horse to think, and who even believe horses are stupid animals, not to be trusted!

There are a lot of people who at least claim to have decades of experience riding, and who have won awards and seem to genuinely HAVE decades of experience, who would define "horse sense" as "_Stupid, flighty, incapable of thought, not safe to cross a street without adult supervision_". Yet it means "_unschooled, but with more practical knowledge and foresight than many well educated people_".

So it was very nice to see a genuine expert, that just about everyone would agree was an expert, encouraging a highly bred, expensive stallion...to THINK. And accepting that the intelligent stallion who had never been out in the open would need to gradually learn, through making mistakes, how to balance going down a small slope, where to put his feet in a rocky spot, etc. AND who was willing to invest the time in building a foundation of calmness, safety, confidence and engagement.

But I was also very jealous! How nice it must be to have a private ranch to teach the horse on! I am lucky. I have several hundred acres just 5 minutes from my home with varied terrain. Many, many riders would LOVE to have that!

Of course, since I don't own it, it means my horses need to start with riding thru a human neighborhood - cars, dogs, kids, garbage cans, garbage trucks, buses, radios, power saws, wind chimes, etc. And when we get to open land, it is open to anyone - including people who dump their trash, who race around on ATVs, who walk dogs, jog, etc.

The video helped me understand WHY some things take me a long time. I don't have the facilities to allow me to run a horse full speed any distance. My "arena" is 110 x 70 feet at its largest point. Until a few months about, it was about 60' x 80' usable - a glorified round pen. We have to make the jump from "These are numbers" to "This is Algebra" in one leap. Since that isn't possible, I have to use smaller times of exposure and take a longer time building the base than I would if I could introduce a horse gradually.

Something I began to appreciate in my final couple years with Mia was how a person's environment could limit what they could do with a horse.

Bandit shocked me. I assumed a horse who had been raced in relay races would be very knowledgeable about riding in the open. But "open" on the Navajo Reservation is VERY different from "open" in the Sonoran Desert! While he still had front shoes, for example, he would slap his front feet down. Hard. I really worry he will have joint problems in the future because of how he moved before I got him. 

Barefoot was a shock to him. It took about 6 months before he could be ridden on anything but the simplest, smoothest patches of trail. He ignored rocks, branches, etc. Like Mia before him, who had to be taught to pick her feet up to get over a 4" high rock in a trail, Bandit needed to LEARN that a prudent horse doesn't slap his feet down ANYWHERE in the Sonoran Desert. He needed to learn that a steep slope required caution. He had a lot of experience running in very open terrain, but apparently none in picking his way across rough ground, and absolutely none in human neighborhoods!

So I really liked how that rider approached riding! None of the Clinton Anderson method of teaching a horse to go down a slope - by constantly stopping the horse and backing him up, and by teaching him to wonder, "_Will my rider insist I stop and back up hard at any moment? I need to focus on what unreasonable demand my rider may make than on how to get us safely down the hill!_" And none of, "_I'm the Boss! When I say cross this gully, you say 'Yes sir! Right now sir!' and move, because I am The Strong Leader and you are ignorant, stupid, otherwise-helpless Stupid Horse!_" 

It isn't just Arabian stallions who benefit from this sort of understanding. It goes back to the statement that 'Mules MUST be ridden the way horses SHOULD be ridden'.

I've taken a lot of grief from experienced riders. I no longer care. I've gained the confidence in what my horses have taught me to feel good about flipping their argument. Their rationale goes, "_How can you, with most of your experience limited to two horses and less than 10 years riding claim to know this?_" My response now, if I respond at all (and it is frequently more productive to ignore), is "_How can you have ridden many horses for decades and NOT have figured it out?_" And what I want to add, but may not, is "_How blind and even STUPID must one be to ride for decades and still think horses are stupid and that they need humans to control their every step?_"

I blame how we train riders. We tell new riders to take lessons from people who established themselves by competing. They go to clinics by people who learned about training by training hundreds of horses over a few years, professionally. They compete, and get their feedback from human judges, and listen to what their fellow competitors think. And eventually, they take up training new riders in how to be like them.

I was lucky. I bought a horse and started riding. I read, but since there wasn't anyone live there to insist I do things THEIR way, I could watch what worked and what didn't, and try until something started working:

*"This will profit you. This will profit you not."*​
My horses - not just Mia, but Trooper and Lilly and Cowboy and even a few lesson horses I got to ride - had apparently read Tom Roberts and used his principles to teach me.

I'm never going to be a good rider. I don't have the athletic ability and balance, and I think I'm too old to acquire the level of balance and fluid motion that many teens can get without work. I'll never be graceful on a horse. I sometimes use the 'Old Cowboy Style' because it IS easy. Maybe not fluid, and maybe not optimum, but it makes me both secure and a very predictable weight on my horse - _and my horses can adapt their own balance as long as I'm a very predictable load_!

But if I am too old to ever be a good rider, I may be old enough to become a good horseman. I don't have the balance, athletic ability and endurance to control my horse. Just to ride safely in the open, I must understand what my horse thinks and why he feels the way he does - and adapt to him. And if a horse had to choose - and mine probably do - I think they would choose an awkward rider who listens and responds to them over a rider who is graceful but deaf (or, to be more precise, simply uninterested in their horse's thoughts).

And although I've primarily ridden two horses, for less than 10 years, I am totally confident in this statement: *Horses care more about how we ride their minds and hearts than how we ride their backs*. It is obviously best if one can do both. I probably cannot. So I'll focus on what I can do, even if it takes a long time for me to rebuild Bandit's foundation.


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## bsms

knightrider said:


> I am loving all these posts.
> Years ago, I spent a week at a dude ranch that took beginning riders for 6 hour rides. I couldn't imagine how they pulled it off. They told me it was easy--they made the beginners get off and walk for 15 minutes out of every hour. It kept the horses and riders from getting sore.
> 
> About training horses slowly, I often joke to people that I have a lifetime to teach my quirky Isabeau what she needs to know, so I don't have to rush her. She is so interesting...
> 
> ...After a bit, I feel her start swinging her head and shifting her feet and I know she'd rather go where she didn't want to go than not go at all. "Moving her feet" just makes her more agitated and upset...


This. Over and over again. Maybe there are horses who need to have their feet moved. I honestly think that in SOME situations, it helps Bandit - more than it would have helped Mia. Having different techniques to use with different horses is fine. In fact, it is critical. I respect the experienced riders who say, "It depends...do you see X or Y or Z? Have you thought about D, E and F?" My beef is with the ones who tell me A works, always works, and anyone who doesn't get great results with A is stupid. The pity is I think they probably say the same thing to their horses...:icon_rolleyes:


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## Hondo

Another great quote: Mules MUST be ridden the way horses SHOULD be ridden


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

bsms said:


> He wanted the stallion to think! It has taken me a long time to understand that there are people who do NOT want a horse to think, and who even believe horses are stupid animals, not to be trusted!
> 
> There are a lot of people who at least claim to have decades of experience riding, and who have won awards and seem to genuinely HAVE decades of experience, who would define "horse sense" as "_Stupid, flighty, incapable of thought, not safe to cross a street without adult supervision_". Yet it means "_unschooled, but with more practical knowledge and foresight than many well educated people_".
> 
> So it was very nice to see a genuine expert, that just about everyone would agree was an expert, encouraging a highly bred, expensive stallion...to THINK. And accepting that the intelligent stallion who had never been out in the open would need to gradually learn, through making mistakes, how to balance going down a small slope, where to put his feet in a rocky spot, etc. AND who was willing to invest the time in building a foundation of calmness, safety, confidence and engagement.



IMO, our perspectives have a lot to do with purpose and purpose is reflected in methods. 

As a function of where I live, I am around a lot of cattlemen. Some of them actually own their own places, a lot of them though, are hired hands. 

Either way, riding is how they put food on the table; it is a business. They have neither the time nor the inclination to deal with a horse who is being less than cooperative (or is lamed or sick) and their methods develop out of that. 

I can't hold that against them, not really. I wish it could be different but, as a practical matter, it can't. They do tend to have "good" riding horses, meaning that no matter how terrified they may be, they won't buck you off and head for the hills. Ghost is one of those horses (he came from a local ranch). 

What seems to me happens though, is that because they do produce safe horses quickly, that is the method that ends up so permeating the horse world and are sometimes perceived by those just getting into horses as the only means available for producing a good, safe horse. 

If you want something different, you have to seek it. To seek it, the thought needs to occur to you that something just isn't right but, when everyone is telling you that it is, "see how well it works...." you believe that YOU are the fool. That was how I ended up stuck where I was in horsemanship for so long. 

I could ride almost anything but, something was always missing in that. At the risk of not being PG, it was like sex without love. Fun while it lasted and you got the job got done but, over time, leaves you with this nagging feeling like you are missing out on something more. At some point, you grow up and realize that it isn't all about you.


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## Hondo

The people on the ranch here have said that if they were to go out of the cattle business they would likely stop riding all together. Be interesting to know how many cattlemen and cattle workers feel the same.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I think there are those who ride because it is a function of their job and there are those who do the job because it allows them to ride.

My trainer was one of the latter. He had a degree in chemistry and worked cattle and trained horses to supplement his “real” job. It was a good excuse to his wife for buying a “ranch” where he could keep his personal horses and make it pay for itself.


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## tinyliny

I can forgive or understand working people who use the methods that get a horse 'working' as fast as possible. but, for folks that hire trainers to do this to their horses, so they can get them out into the SHOWING world as fast as possible, that I find irritating.


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## bsms

When I visited my friend's ranch last summer, one of his sons and I got talking. That son said his older brother was turning into a horseman - an excellent rider who was good with horses and rode for enjoyment as well as work. He said he wouldn't ride his brother's favorite horse because the horse was too much work to ride. He also said he was like his Dad - he rode to get work done, but wouldn't miss riding if he could do the work in a truck.

All that said, his Dad had learned some good ways of working in order to save time. Their work ranges from mountains to desert, steep wet slopes, going along cliffs, thru places with no trails, etc. A horse who freaked at a canyon because he had never seen such a thing would be dangerous. So they mostly raised their own horses, and the young horses would spend time with their dam, following the sheep herd and learning about deserts and pushing thru heavy brush and crossing creeks and cliffs as a yearling following Mom. By the time they were three, they knew loading inside out, could scramble up anything possible and know what wasn't possible - all before their first ride.

All of them had been out long after dark, and had their horses carry them back to camp in pitch black darkness, trusting their horse to find the way and get there safely. The Dad and a couple of their sheepherders had the horse do so in a blizzard, saving their lives. The time spent with their dam wasn't wasted. It taught them to be a good, practical, level-headed horse before the first ride. At 'breaking', they mainly needed to learn to handle the rider's weight in addition to their own.

When I got off to work the sheep, my wife got on. An hour later, her horse was walking on the edge of the road with a 75-100 foot drop down to the river below. The horse KNEW what it was doing. No way he was going to freak, jump sideways, etc - not next to a cliff. The same horse would freak in NYC, and might freak at the sight of the ocean, but he understood his environment.

You couldn't pay me to ride a horse on the slopes in this picture (the mountain slopes are where the sheep would spend the next few weeks and the herders need to follow them), but they do it all the time:








​ 
Years ago, they moved sheep thru these canyons:








​ 
They used their horses hard, but they understood them. My friend estimated he had ridden his favorite horse over 25,000 miles. A reasonably perceptive person who spends that much time on another person's back WILL learn about their horse. And, of course, people can ride for decades and never notice their horse is a living being.

All that said - I fully understand and support the need to get good results fast for pros and for work horses. No one is going to take their horse to a pro and ask them to get the horse riding good within two years!

My point is that there ought to be an acknowledgement that the owner-rider/trainer can and SHOULD use methods that differ from a professional trainer and a working cowboy. Most of the clinicians and 'recognized programs', however, make no distinction. Clinton Anderson's method, and Parelli's, are really based on what they learned getting hundreds of horses 'good enough' in weeks, and are not really appropriate as the foundation for an owner-trainer.

Owner riders/trainers - and to ride is to train, when you ride the horse you own - have both different needs and different options open to them. That ought to be common wisdom. It is stating the obvious, yet I've rarely seen it acknowledged. Outside of the journals on HF, I'm not sure I've EVER seen the concept discussed.


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## bsms

Told this story on the over 50 thread, but some of you youngsters might appreciate it:



bsms said:


> On a lighter note...
> 
> Ran into a guy today who is on the far side of *90*. He and his wife were talking with me and they noticed my cowboy boots. They asked if I rode. I said I did, but I was sometimes so sore at the end of the ride that I wondered why...and then I'd ride again the next day.
> 
> The guy is in a wheelchair, and he told me to enjoy it while I can. "_I think horses are dangerous. But my brother-in-law_", and he looked at his wife. "_How old is he now? 85?_" She shrugged.
> 
> "_By 85, a guy ought to be developing some good sense. But that fool boy,_" - and the wife smiled - "_that fool boy will toss a leg over anything with hair and hooves. How often has he broken his back now?_"
> 
> The wife, still smiling, shrugged her shoulders.
> 
> "_Broken more bones than he's kept whole! That boy will be riding 'till he's dead. And I'm telling you, young man - if you enjoy riding, keep doing it!_"
> 
> Sounds like good advice. After all, a fellow ought to be developing some good sense by the time he's 90 plus...:clap:


:racing:

:winetime:​


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## gottatrot

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> If you want something different, you have to seek it. To seek it, the thought needs to occur to you that something just isn't right but, when everyone is telling you that it is, "see how well it works...." you believe that YOU are the fool. That was how I ended up stuck where I was in horsemanship for so long.


Me too.

Really, really great posts above. 

I've had the same problems. What was wrong with me? Why did "what works" leave me with such a bad taste in my mouth? Or why didn't it work for this particular horse? Why did I feel conflicted inside when I used the training methods and they obviously caused distress to the horses? 
It wasn't that I believed horses should never feel distress. But why was _I_ causing them such distress and angst, and was it worth it?

Agree with @tinyliny. I understand that people who need horses to do a certain job have to cull out the ones that will never be suitable. I have less understanding for those who are presenting themselves as the answer to every horse problem and also cull horses out because they are too difficult to train quickly. Or because they don't meet what people want to be successful in the show ring or to make money.

All of this culling would be fine if it was universally understood across the horse world that it's not just about training, and that horses need to do things that fit their personalities. Instead, this is a hush hush thing, and the horses trainers reject are shuttled quietly off to other places. And what is universally understood is that if a trainer can't immediately fix up or train a horse, the horse is crazy, unbalanced, worthless. 

I think because of a glamorous and fake view of how horses are, people with backyard horses take the same approach. They send a horse to a trainer, but 30 days later the horse still has problems. So obviously this is a bad horse and must be rejected. When in reality so many horses need far more time and effort put into their training than what a "trainer" can give them. They must be retrained to each new situation, and may not adapt to what every person wants to use them for.

The average non-professional horseman has much more opportunity to work with the horses that have been rejected from training programs, because the horses that are culled out end up in our world. Our horses haven't all been bred for several generations to have the temperament to do a certain job such as working cattle. Instead, we often end up with a horse that we have no idea what their temperament is best suited for, and it might not even be something we know how to do or have the right environment and facilities for.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

gottatrot said:


> I think because of a glamorous and fake view of how horses are...


I thought this would give everyone a good laugh...


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## Zexious

I totally agree with you, bsms. 
I think too many people (not just in the horse industry, but in all industries) get caught up in the way they do thing. I don't think anyone would ever admit that their way is the only way to go about doing things, but I do think people get caught up subconsciously prescribing to such mindsets.

Really, I think it goes beyond "pros" and "cowboys", I think a respect and understanding that everyone can do things differently and still get results (plus a recognition that 'results' mean different things to different people) should be applied to the entire horse world.
But I guess this is drawing too much on an already heated thread from elsewhere in the forum? xD


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## whisperbaby22

I think there is also a difference between people who got into horses before the internet, back when there were a few books, a few old timers around to learn from, and you learned to work with the horse that ended up in your back yard.


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## Zexious

^I'd disagree with the above.
I "got into horses before the internet", in the late 90s. That's certainly not the way I learned. My first lesson (and first realy experience with a horse, was at an A H/J barn that my mother's friend recommended (I think they actually found it from an ad in the newspaper. My, how times have changed xD) and I lessoned/leased/competed there for years. 
Again, more than one way to skin a cat... even before the internet


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## whisperbaby22

I was just making more of a general statement about the times (and probably the area, too) that people get involved with horses. Probably not making myself to clear, but then I started in the 50's.


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## bsms

Since I have a weak spot for old westerns, and since learning about horses in the 50s has been brought up...found this on the Internet, about Doug McClure (who played Trampas on "The Virginian"):

"I’ve almost always had a horse. I got my first one when I was seven years old, and had three altogether - one at a time, of course - until I was out of high school. I was just a little silly over horses, that was all. Other kids would have cats, or parakeets, or tropical fish, or dogs. Me, I had horses. I’d spend all my spare time hanging out around the stables where I boarded my horse. I’d talk the owner into letting me clean out the stalls, in return for riding his horses. *Now, how crazy can you get? Begging to clean out stalls!* I must have been pretty hard for my family to take in those days, always coming home smelling of the stable!" 

"In the summers away from Santa Monica Junior College and UCLA I was a roamer. Most of the vacations I’d spend on ranches in Nevada where I’d work the range, break horses and once in a while get into a rodeo. It was with horses that I might have discovered what having a heart really meant. *Every once in a while when I broke a horse I’d feel terrible. I’d get the impression that I had taken something immeasurably precious from a beautiful animal*." 

"I’ve always had a couple of horses. When I was around eight I started going over to Will Rogers State Park, that’s the ranch where he lived, and working around with the horses. I helped bury Soapsuds, Roger’s roping horse. When I was around fifteen I spent several summers working on a cattle ranch in Nevada, near Reno. I had five horses in my string. No special breed, but just good working ranch horses. I learned a lot of tricks for handling horses and how to rope calves."

Trampas Gallery - Doug McClure's Portrayal of Trampas

IIRC - and I was trying to find the story on the Internet when I came across that bit about Doug McClure - Sara Lane (Elizabeth Granger on The Virginian) said her first horse was one her parents bought her and kept in the backyard. They didn't have money for a saddle as well, so she'd climb on until she fell off, and eventually she stopped falling off - and that was how she learned to ride.

At 50, riding on pavement and in the desert, that was NOT the way I wanted to learn to ride. But I suspect it is the BEST way to learn to ride! Learning like that, I'd think you would automatically pick up "balance" instead of "position". And learning to read your horse would be as much a part of riding as learning where to place the saddle (when you eventually got one). Maybe more so.


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## weeedlady

@bsms thank you for reminding me of The Virginian. I loved that show. Watched EVERY day after school. That and the Big Valley and Bonanza. I still enjoy those old westerns-mostly looking at the horses. Just like when I was a kid.


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## whisperbaby22

Yes, some of those actors could really ride.


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## bsms

Eli Wallach wrote about doing a spaghetti western with Clint Eastwood. Eastwood warned him to be careful about the stunts because the safety standards he was used to would be absent.

Not long after, a scene called for the actor to have his hands tied behind his back, on a horse, about to be hung. A squib would fire, parting the rope to look like the hero shot the rope. He wasn't entirely comfortable, but there was a guy there to hold the horse, so...

The squib fired. The horse reared. The handler ran away. The horse then ran away, bolting for over a mile. Fortunately, the actor had played polo in Texas. So he rode the bolting horse until the horse stopped bolting, then dismounted and waited for help.

After that, he understood just what Eastwood had told him!

A genuine expert (and polo lover) was Dale Robertson:










A young stuntman was hired to take his place. Watching him ride, he wondered why he had been hired. Dale explained that the studio wouldn't allow him to do anything risky because an injury would halt production. They became friends as well as co-workers, and he wrote that Dale knew more about horses than anyone he ever met anywhere.

"Mr. Robertson was a skilled rider at 10 and training polo ponies by the time he was a teenager. He often said that the only reason he acted professionally was to save money to start his own horse farm in Oklahoma, which he eventually did...

...Mr. Robertson never made any bones about his desire to get out of show business one day. He said movies had gotten too sexy for his tastes. *He said he got tired of having to hold his stomach in*. Mostly, he wanted a ranch. He bought one in Yukon, Okla., about 20 miles west of Oklahoma City.

Mr. Robertson never lost his disdain for Eastern actors, who he thought just played at being cowboys. He said you could spot them by the way they walked around a horse." - bolding mine, but I'm at an age where I can appreciate the sentiment!

Dale Robertson, Actor, Dies at 89 - The New York Times

There were plenty of actors who couldn't ride for beans, but there were some genuinely good riders, too!


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## whisperbaby22

Just for fun, check out the opening sequence of "Forty Guns" starring Barbara Stanwyck.


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## bsms

Came across these in a 1970 book on Western Equitation:








​ 







​ 







​ 
Hmmmm.....








​ 







​ 







​ 
Turns out I'm not so much a bad 2017 rider, but a reasonably competent 1970 rider...


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## gottatrot

Either of you look a lot more securely seated than many Western riders I see nowadays in the show ring. 

The '70s were possibly a little more into "what works." 









Although I don't think this really worked.


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## egrogan

That ^^ is fabulous!


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## bsms

Yesterday evening, I fed and watered the horses while my youngest finished cleaning the corral. At the end, I started filling a 100 gallon bucket with water. It is the only way we have of preventing Bandit from splashing all the water out with his hooves. It is just too deep for him to get his front feet in, and too heavy for him to drag and dump it.

Not sure what went on while my daughter was cleaning up before I got out. But as I filled the water bucket, we had the following conversation:

DAUGHTER: Bandit has a knack for wreaking havoc in the corral.

ME: Mmmmmm.

DAUGHTER: For a creature with limited manual dexterity, he certainly can do a lot of mischief.

ME: Mmmmmm.

DAUGHTER: *We are SOOOO lucky that boy doesn't have opposable thumbs!*

ME: True.

DAUGHTER: What do you suppose he'd be doing now, if he DID have opposable thumbs?

ME: He'd probably be at the neighbors, stealing some carrot cake from the kitchen and leaving a few of Cowboy's tail hairs for the police to find.

:cheers:​


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## horseluvr2524

I often feel the same way about my Shan. Everything within reach is 'hers', very much like a small child! She puts her lips on everything, plays with everything.

The real kicker was when she started taking off her bell boots by herself. They are the velcro kind. I would tie her up after a ride, go to the tack room, come back, and find her pulling the velcro off. Maybe she's like my mother and husband, in that she does silly things just to see the look on my face.


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## bsms

Just finished a mostly boring ride with Bandit. Boring in a good way. Haven't ridden for a few days due to wind and rain and cold - at least, cold by OUR standards. After riding with my stirrups adjusted to 10 holes showing below the Bevins buckles for the last month, I dropped them down to just 8 holes showing. Wanted to see how that felt compared to the 'shorter' stirrups.

Did a little W/T/C in the arena first. Dropping to 8 holes means I have an almost straight leg when there is weight in the stirrups, kind of like how Barry Godden described being taught years ago. It is at a point where posting really isn't an option, not unless one abandons the stirrups and posts without them. But with the stirrups like that, a sitting trot felt pretty good. To me. Bandit, however, shifts gears to a canter at a slower speed, so he adopts more of a jog/lope than a trot/canter. I assume he does so because lifting my weight requires more energy, and he shifts to a higher gear to compensate:










As the "Cost of Transport" goes up, the horse shifts gears earlier. And it seems reasonable that this is where the trot/canter vs western jog/lope is rooted. After all, it is a pretty safe bet that this guy didn't do much posting, nor worried about getting off his horse's back (1888):










Also, I thought this photo was revealing in terms of what old time western saddles looked like:










Look at the cantle on that thing! No one would worry about sliding off to the rear! I also liked this picture of kids learning to ride dressage :wink: ... group lesson. Or would that be "Western Pleasure"?










Images reveal the hardships of early travelers in America | Daily Mail Online

In any case, I'll admit the dropped stirrup and straight leg felt pretty good. And that points out how that style of riding depends on long stirrups. At 8 holes showing, it feels good. At 9, OK. At 10 holes, with the stirrup strap maybe 1.5 inches higher, it feels awkward. I don't think I could ride that way at all with 11 holes showing, although that would only be about a 2" difference.

Solo trip for Bandit today. He was nervy until we got to the desert. He really doesn't see much point to going out without the herd. He understands LEADING the herd and keeping them safe by his alertness, intelligence and courage. But if there is no herd to protect, what's the point?

But he WENT, and went better than I expected. He is regularly asking to move off of the ATV trails. The ATV trails are compacted as hard as concrete, but have 1-1.5 inch gravel on top - so like asking a horses to walk on a paved road with rocks on top! When possible, he prefers to get off the clean trail and zig-zag around the cactus. It seems good for his mind and easier on his feet - so win/win.

I'm trying to build Bandit up to believing there is nothing wrong with going out solo, so we did nothing adventurous or hard. Stayed in very familiar territory, but we pressed further than he had gone solo before - and I turned him back before he got more than moderately tense. One of the big mistakes I made with Mia was pushing to go too far without first laying a solid foundation of calmness and trust. Then she'd explode, and we'd both regress in our confidence and ability! This is about the level of emotional challenge that I want for Bandit for the next month or so. Until he can do this RELAXED, we don't need to push farther.

==========================================

My previous ride a few days back was with my son riding Cowboy. My son (35) had been on a horse twice in his life - Mia. She was actually very good and patient with him, but she intimidated him. She...was like that. Most people who rode her felt some of that. It's been at least 3 years since he had tried riding.

He enjoyed Cowboy far more, and we left the arena immediately. Winds were blowing 20 mph with gusts to 30, so not my idea of a great riding day. But my son suggested going along, and since he hadn't considered riding in years....

I told him to start with riding like Cowboy was a Harley. "_That will keep you stable and you can relax whenever it feels right._" About 10 minutes later, I asked him how it was going. He said he abandoned "Harley-style" after 5 minutes because it was easier to relax in the saddle. He also said riding a horse was like dancing - that the horse's back REALLY moves, and it just makes more sense to move with it than to resist.

Good boy! :iagree:

After about 15-20 minutes, we dropped briefly down a slope into the wash, and then climbed out a few minutes later at a spot that has a trail but which is a little steep. I told him to keep his body vertical with the center of the earth while going down or up. My son is as impervious to advice as I am, so I didn't see any reason to give much.

After we climbed out, he exclaimed, "_Holy Cow, Dad! I really had to lean forward climbing out or I'd have felt like I was throwing Cowboy off balance!_" 

Good boy! :iagree:

We headed back because the winds were picking up and 30-40 minutes of trail was enough for someone's first time on a horse in 3 years, and third time in his life. But afterward, he commented that Cowboy would get fussy if you tried to stop him from grabbing a bite, but he'd then trot to catch up and was really easy to ride if you gave him a little freedom. And his main take-away was the dance analogy - that the horse needs to move his back a lot, and it was important to move your hips WITH him. He also thought it was easiest if you tried to balance by matching the horse's balance.

Not a bad lesson at all. He would never have listened to me, but he was fine discovering it for himself - with some help from a wonderful 13.0 hand mustang.

BTW - my son is adopted from the Philippines. He's 5'2", so a 13.0 hand horse is fine for him. And Cowboy, regardless of his height, is a HORSE. 

A very good one, too!


----------



## bsms

Some interesting videos:
















I don't expect it to be a problem for Bandit. He had a very heavy rider earlier in his life, but is pretty lightly used now. And he obviously doesn't have a congenital condition. But I freaked when I first saw a swaybacked horse (many years ago, now). I think it gives food for thought...how DOES a horse use its back? Not, I think, the way WE think.


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## bsms

I measured it with a ruler. The holes in my western stirrup leathers are one inch apart. Since stirrup leathers form a loop with two sides, tightening things by one inch only raises the stirrup by 1/2". A 30 inch circle reduced by 1" to 29 inches, when folded in half, results in a reduction of 15 inches down to 14.5.

So going from 8 holes remaining to 11 holes remaining only raises my foot by 1.5 inches - yet it seems HUGE to me! Even lengthening from 9 holes to 8 is very noticeable, and that is only 1/2 inch...


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## gottatrot

I remember the days when I would get on horses and just ride at whatever stirrup length the previous person had set them on the saddle. After more experiences, I began to realize how important my stirrup length really was for each horse I was riding. Getting better with my riding meant that I learned how to use my body better and found out that things I'd considered minor like stirrup length could make a huge difference in my comfort level, balance and safety on the horse. Eventually it came to a point where I began to feel a little insecure if my stirrups weren't just right. The more years I ride, the pickier I get about my stirrup length. Having exactly the right hole can make a huge difference, and this becomes more noticeable the faster and longer you go.


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## phantomhorse13

bsms said:


> I freaked when I first saw a swaybacked horse (many years ago, now). I think it gives food for thought...how DOES a horse use its back? Not, I think, the way WE think.


I think comparing an animal with a congenital defect to a normal animal is apples and oranges. We all know animals can and will make incredible adaptations.

Look at pictures of Faith and Duncan:



















Would you then say normal dogs don't use the 4 legs they possess?





bsms said:


> going from 8 holes remaining to 11 holes remaining only raises my foot by 1.5 inches - yet it seems HUGE to me! Even lengthening from 9 holes to 8 is very noticeable, and that is only 1/2 inch...


In English riding, changing stirrup length (generally 1-2 holes, with standard leathers having 1" between holes) between flatting and jumping is pretty standard practice. I used to do this routinely when I was showing a million years ago. I used to do an even more extreme adjustment between riding the just-broke racehorses versus riding the ones further along in training (that was such a big difference we didn't even use the same leathers). I never thought much of it.

Not long ago, I put my stirrups up 2 holes because I was going to do a bit of jumping with Phin. I felt so unbalanced, I wound up putting them back down because I was afraid I was going to be giving him unintended cues with my very unstable leg. Just goes to show what an amazing thing muscle memory is - and that I don't have any for a shorter stirrup any longer!


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## bsms

phantomhorse13 said:


> I think comparing an animal with a congenital defect to a normal animal is apples and oranges...


Yes and no. If it was ONLY swaybacks due to a congenital condition who could be ridden without pain, while those caused by 17+ foals could not, then it might be unfair. MIGHT. But it seems even horses with fairly severe swayback due to non-congenital problems can function fairly well. Not "top sport horse" well, but much better than many people expect.

Further, the reason a swayback horse can move without pain, and be ridden without pain, is because the back functions properly as a rigid structure. Some of the people doing research on horses' backs and how they use them say the rigidity does two things:

1 - Prevents damage to the spinal chord.

2 - Allows the power of the hind legs to be transmitted through the body and move the front end.

The latter assumes a horse moves like an airplane - thrust and lift. The hind legs are primarily for thrust while the front legs prevent the front end from nose-diving into the ground. But there is a LOT of weight on the front end that needs to be moved, and the horse uses a pretty rigid back to transmit that power.

The muscles along the back do not work to lift the back. They seem to work along the spine to make things more rigid. I'm in over my head here, but I believe they work at a 45 degree angle to the spine, but in an opposing manner on either side. And while it looks like the muscle acts as something running from front to back, the actual attachments and design of the muscle means it does not. The opposing 45 degree angles act to stiffen, not to lift or flex.

There is a theory that the abdominal muscles contract, to bend the spine up. That is the bow and string theory, with the bow being the spine and the string being the tummy muscles. But the tummy muscles tighten when the back is EXTENDING, and relax when the back is lifting - so the tummy muscles are not playing a string to the back's bow. It is more likely they tighten as mine do when doing push-ups: to prevent the gut from sloshing downward near the bottom of the descent.

Racinet simplified it to look like this:










I think that is a far more accurate simplification - one that accounts for how a swayback horse can move without pain, congenital or not. The rigid rail provides lift in 3 ways:

The back legs coming under and providing some of their thrust in a more upward vector.

The thoracic sling - the muscle at the front that carries the weight - can tighten, lifting the front end via muscular strength. 

The front legs act like pole vaults, stopping the descent and translating it into upward thrust. If the rider wants an artificially high lift in the front, as felt in a "collected" horse, then the peak impact force on the horse's front legs would increase - which has been measured.

The important part, IMHO, is to realize a horse in NOT a cheetah, greyhound or human. They do not flex their back to increase their motion. Instead, they use a very rigid, unflexing structure to transmit power differently.











The horse in that photo doesn't have any sag to his back, but the curve of his back is remarkably close to the curve of an unridden horse's back. I don't think a horse can lift his back any further than shown in that picture. 

All of which explains something that puzzled me early in my riding. The books all said collection was needed for an agile horse - one who could turn quickly with a rider on its back, for example. But Mia could turn so hard and so violently that the poleys of my Australian saddle would leave 4" wide bruises on my thighs, and do so without first collecting! How could she turn so quickly if collection was needed for agility?

The answer can be found in getting on our hands and knees, and putting a child on our backs, and then trying to turn. If one turns "straight", for example, with the right knee following the right hand's path, the turn will be comfortable for the child - but it will be a slow turn and hard work for us to perform. To turn fast, one shifts weight toward the rear and pushes sideways with your hands. At a maximum, it becomes a pivot. And it is all possible to do with a very firm spine. Below, the hind legs are providing thrust while the front legs are shifting the front sideways:










https://www.aqha.com/journal/alliances/2016/february/02262016-barrel-racing-horses-at-the-american/

Or, as used on a ranch long ago:










A lot of folks will tell you the above two horses are moving "wrong", that they will be injured or break down sooner because they are not "collected". I think, OTOH, they are turning efficiently, using the same method they use when unridden. They keep enough tension along the spine to protect it, and then move their legs and balance in the way that gets them the most turn for their effort.

Many people have said my horses are moving badly - hollow backs, ungainly, repulsive looking:


















Based on the theory of back motion taught by many instructors and pushed in many books and videos, they are right. Ughh! Disgusting!

But if I'm right, then both horses are doing just fine. Bandit, at the time this photo was taken, WAS over-protecting his back. His previous rider was a BIG guy, easily 220-230 in his socks. Add a 30 lb western saddle & clothes, and that would be 260 lbs on a horse who weighed 790 lbs (vet's estimate - and Bandit has gained weight, although he is still probably lighter than Trooper's estimated 875 lbs). I don't believe in the "20% Rule", but I do believe that a horse ridden at 32%+ ought to be at a walk - and Bandit was raced like that.

In my early posts about Bandit, I mentioned his "I-beam back" at a trot. Perfectly understandable, given how he was ridden. I ride him at around 25%, and our trotting and cantering is never for more than 300 yards...rocks won't allow it. His back is far less tense now than before.

But I find beauty in a horse who moves under saddle the way it moves unridden. Riding is an unnatural thing, and I think we DO owe it to the horse to help them strengthen their backs so they can protect their spines and move efficiently without needing a back like an I-beam. I worry about Bandit's future, given how hard he was ridden for so many miles as a young horse.

But I also believe the ability of very swaybacked horses to move comfortably, even with a rider, demonstrates the falseness of the "Round Back Theory". The horse's back will NEVER form an arch, nor does it ripple lengthwise like a cheetah's:






I think equitation is riddled with theories that are oft-repeated but rarely tested, and that are harmful to horses and good riding. I also think correct theory allows us to progress and become more effective partners with our horses.

BTW - I've spent the last week trying to get back to doing pull-ups. I won't say how few I do in a set, or how few I can do total in a day right now. But the exercise has left my back tired and a little sore. Belly, too! That might sound odd, because many would expect the ARMS to be what does the most work, not the back and belly. I think humans doing exercise can learn a few things about how exercise affects a horse. And I think one of those lessons is that athletic movement affects our bodies in ways a watcher might not expect...:-?


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## phantomhorse13

bsms said:


> Further, the reason a swayback horse can move without pain, and be ridden without pain, is because the back functions properly as a rigid structure. Some of the people doing research on horses' backs and how they use them say the rigidity does two things:
> 
> 1 - Prevents damage to the spinal chord.
> 
> 2 - Allows the power of the hind legs to be transmitted through the body and move the front end.
> 
> The latter assumes a horse moves like an airplane - thrust and lift. The hind legs are primarily for thrust while the front legs prevent the front end from nose-diving into the ground. But there is a LOT of weight on the front end that needs to be moved, and the horse uses a pretty rigid back to transmit that power.
> 
> The muscles along the back do not work to lift the back. They seem to work along the spine to make things more rigid.


I actually like the comparison of a plane's wing to a horse's back.. not because the forces are acting upon them in the exact same fashion, but because its a great example of "pretty rigid" versus totally-solid-and-unmoving.

A plane with truly rigid, fixed wings would have a heck of a time flying and dealing with the stresses of constantly changing air currents. Assuming the wings didn't break off outright, I suspect they would wear out a lot faster than the somewhat-flexible wings that are actually used on aircraft. Yet most people don't think of a wing as being "flexible."

I see a horse's back in the same way. The muscles contract and relax to allow the spine to flex, which helps transmit and/or absorb the force depending on the movement. That flex doesn't have to be the huge changes some seem to expect, but at least some change will hopefully be there for the sake of the horse's longevity. A horse moving with a not-moving-at-all back is not going to last (just ask Bandit his opinion of his previous owner). This same principle can be applied to a non-congenital swayback, too. If you were to ask such an animal for a _high_ level of athletic activity (be that upper level dressage movements, cutting a cow, or bucking in a rodeo event), that horse would likely break down faster than a more normally conformed horse.


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> The important part, IMHO, is to realize a horse in NOT a cheetah, greyhound or human. They do not flex their back to increase their motion. Instead, they use a very rigid, unflexing structure to transmit power differently.


The entire post on this subject is excellent. I agree with phantomhorse that yes, a horse does use his back muscles and we've seen how completing bracing them is not natural and detrimental (as in horses with poor fitting saddles or back pain). 

But it is important to understand that the popular view of the back rounding, lifting and carrying us as a strong arch is completely false. It is important for so many reasons, and for myself understanding this has taken me away from feeling guilty about allowing my horse to travel naturally and instead realizing that the back can be as strong or stronger when a horse moves with the head and neck at a natural level as it is when the horse is held in a "rounded frame." 

If the back functioned as the popular belief insists, a horse with lordosis would be completely disabled. They would not have enough athleticism to carry a rider even if they were built up to it and also had a wonderful attitude. But the horse I observed with major lordosis did not act as though he were overcoming a major disability such as loss of a limb, and it was obviously not just because he was living in the moment as animals do, or accepting his circumstances. He did not appear to have any effort carrying his rider, and lifted into a canter effortlessly. 

The Arab, Satin that I ride sometimes also has some lordosis, and she has no lack of wanting to go and gallop. My thought is that a horse with lordosis does lack some ability for seriously physical endeavors, but it may not be because of the lack of the spine itself to form an arch, but because it is less possible to hold the back muscles straight and keep the back stable enough to transmit all the power necessary. So the curve means a loss of connection, sort of the opposite of what dressage teaches which is that a curve is necessary. 

Regardless, because the spine is actually very rigid, horses like Satin can jump over logs, gather themselves up with their legs underneath themselves, or extend their gaits. Anyone riding her feels they would like her to be a little less athletic sometimes, because she is a handful.


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## bsms

phantomhorse13 said:


> I actually like the comparison of a plane's wing to a horse's back.. not because the forces are acting upon them in the exact same fashion, but because its a great example of "pretty rigid" versus totally-solid-and-unmoving...
> 
> ...A horse moving with a not-moving-at-all back is not going to last (just ask Bandit his opinion of his previous owner)....


The truth is rarely found in absolutes. Bandit's immediate response, when asked to trot, of holding his back like an I-beam was strong evidence he was being asked to exceed what his back could handle, so he compensated in a very defensive fashion. 

I'm not fond of absolute rules about a rider's weight as a percentage of a horse's, but my experience riding Cowboy at over 30%, and how Bandit behaved after being asked to RACE at around 32% (my best guess) suggests that even a well-conformed horse is facing a significant challenge in protecting its back by the 30-35% range. 

I think they can handle it at a walk, where the legs remain in contact with the ground most of the time and the back doesn't move much up and down. I think the rotating motion of a horse's back at a canter may be able to handle high loads better than at the trot. A fast trot, a RACING trot, looks like it creates a lot of up/down vertical forces on the back. I think it is significant that when I ride a deep sitting trot, Bandit shifts into a canter sooner.

I don't think there is a hard line to draw. I didn't do much riding from 1 Dec - 30 March, for a variety of reasons. As I've started up riding, I've been very proud of how much Bandit has retained mentally and emotionally. It also has been obvious he tires sooner. He isn't physically riding fit. Not for more than an hour or so. He can do it without complaint, but I can feel him stretching his back and shoulders - lunging his face down and stretching the 'thoracic sling' area - at the end of the ride.

Some riders call that 'reaching for the bit'. I know darn well bandit has no desire to 'seek the bit' when he does that. He's tired and stretching his tired muscles. He's such a slender horse that riding at 25% can tire him in a way I never saw it tire Mia. In 7 years, I never once got the feeling Mia was tired of carrying my weight. Poor, slender Bandit does. 

Today Bandit and Trooper and my youngest daughter rode for less than an hour, but we dropped into a narrow and very challenging wash we have normally avoided. It has some narrow spots, where the walls are 10+ feet high and there is no place a horse can go except forward or back. Bandit used to get very nervous in spots like that. Today, he barely noticed. I was very proud of his calmness.

But the sand! It was firm for 40 feet, then we'd suddenly sink 6" into it. We could sometimes move sideways to avoid the softest spots, but then the ground was rocky and uneven. My youngest said Trooper watch Bandit and changed his stride based on where Bandit started to struggle. Scientists say horses cannot learn by watching, but maybe they need to ride Trooper behind Bandit in some challenging ground!

We did some more riding after that wash ended, including some good up & down spots, then I turn Bandit back into it and we rode it the full length back, climbing out in a spot where the horses had to lunge up - a very short distance, but it worked them.

By the time we got back on pavement, it was obvious Bandit was pooped! He's getting tomorrow off - just as I took a day off from doing pull-ups today. The body needs some recovery time when building strength. I'm sure Bandito could use some rest. For his legs and for his back. But my slender Arabian/Mustang did his job, like a...well, like a little trooper, as the saying goes. No complaints. No quitting. No avoidance. But he's earned a rest tomorrow.

If his back was strictly an I-beam, and it didn't require muscular strength to hold and carry my weight, then it wouldn't be a problem. But I'm a 59 year old guy who knows how exercise feels, so he'll get a day off tomorrow.

There is certainly SOME movement in a horse's back, and it certainly requires muscular strength, and we certainly can overdo it and be unfair to a horse. I honestly don't think I EVER tired out Mia's back, but Bandit is an amazingly slender horse. People don't see it until they mount him, and then even people used to Arabians wonder where the rest of the horse is!

But I wouldn't do him any favors by trying to get him to 'round up', or trying to restrain his forward motion and turn it into upward motion. When he gets tired, I do best by him by simply dismounting. A 5 minute rest will buy us some more riding, and exercise followed by rest periods will build his strength. He doesn't need me to tell him HOW to move. Only to be aware when he gets tired, and respect it. To listen, and respond.

BTW - I fully agree that a congenital swayback is different from one suffering from too much weight, too long. The congenital swayback has a difference in how the bones are shaped, and its back may function close to full strength. An overused back has stretched things that ought to be tight, and I'm old enough to feel some of that in my own body. Went for a run in the early afternoon, and combined with riding...well, I just took 4 Motrin. Don't need a doctor to tell me to do so...


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## waresbear

:thumbsup:Motrin is my friend during hay season.


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## bsms

*Welcome to Bandit's World - Lotsa pics*

*Welcome to Bandit's World
18 May 2017*​ 
Remembered to take a camera with me today, but didn't get very good pictures. The darn camera snaps the picture about a second or so AFTER I push the button, and that makes it tough to get good pictures while riding. And as always, clicking on a picture allows you to see it full sized.

This was taken near the end of the ride, while heading south, but I'll put it here because we dropped into this wash first thing on getting to the desert, only heading north:








​ 
It is the sort of wash that used to scare Bandit. There are not a lot of exits, and he's not fond of places where his running away is limited. Even after an hour of riding, coming back, I think you can see he's...involved. Where would you go if attacked by a cougar? That is the sort of thing Bandit needs to constantly consider. He's in front, as he almost always is, and the other horses (in the desert at least) expect him to take charge. But he never hesitated, so that is good. He's learning.

But Cowboy hadn't been ridden much lately, and steady COWBOY was a bundle of nerves at the start. So instead of following the wash, I turned Bandit out and across country - so Cowboy would have to work and think about his feet and focus. I thought I had a picture, but then I realized Bandit was about to step on a cactus, so post-button push and before shutter-snap, I asked him to turn. And he started to, bending his neck, but it made for a tilted picture:








​
Got a picture of Trooper and my youngest a little while later.










Trooper continues to loathe me. I put his saddle on this morning, and he acted like I was going to kill him. Which always, in turn, makes me FEEL like bumping him off!

This was taken to the side as we went along. Not sure where or when. 








​
It is pretty typical of where we ride. I think it is beautiful. It is an acquired taste, I suppose. It is open enough that we can usually find a way, but also enough work that both horse and rider stay involved. The big concerns are

A) Little cactus, like miniature barrel cactus, that have lots of spines but hide, barely sticking above the ground and hard for a human to see. I usually spot them just over a stride away, which is why I sometimes need to turn Bandit right away. But all that zig-zagging is good for practicing turns and neck-reining. Bandit gets frustrated if we do lots of turns in an arena. He accepts it perfectly, as useful guidance, when we are in the desert.

B) Pack rat holes, some of which get big enough a horse could sink a leg into unexpectedly. I can usually spot those areas far enough ahead to avoid them, but you can pop up out of a wash and suddenly find yourself surrounded by holes.

This was a lucky over the shoulder snap as we climbed out. It is a bit awkward, trying to take pictures and ride at the same time. Happily, it only caught a part of my shoulder:








​ 
We practiced dropping in and climbing out of washes a few times. In one spot, Bandit had to drop about 12-16" straight down, something we don't do often. It would have been OK but the sand turned out to be very soft. His feet sank about 6" in when they hit, making it hard for him to move forward as he had planned. His front end was stuck but his hind end was still moving...so he stumbled some.

I was using my compromise 9-hole stirrup setting, which allowed my weight to flow past my horse and into the stirrups. I had experimented earlier in the day with the 10-hole setting, but that is getting short enough that I need to use grip with my knee sometimes. When my horse is stumbling as we go forward, I prefer having the weight flow into the stirrups instead.

The other horses saw Bandit stumble, and they were prepared for the soft sand. They had no problems, but that gets back to MY belief that horses DO observe and learn. They adjusted their movement after seeing Bandit sink in. After all, if you KNOW your front feet will get stuck for a moment, you don't try to bring your hind feet forward right away. Sink, pause, get front feet clear, THEN move hind feet. We don't do any difficult riding, but it is the kind of place where a person and his horse can get surprised easily! But Bandit, to his credit, accepts the responsibility of path-blazing.

As we returned, we once again passed a place where the walls of the wash would prevent a horse from escaping that direction. Bandit being Bandit, that will probably always concern him. Not enough to stop him, but he stays alert and watchful. If your escapes are going to be limited, it is important to know of danger the MOMENT it appears, and not a millisecond later:








​ 
Still, it is the sort of riding I love. I love a horse who is looking around, observing, and thinking for himself.

A final shot, shortly before we climbed back out and returned to the neighborhood and paved streets and home:








​ 
In other washes, the sand is stable enough to go faster. This particular wash seems to constantly change. But it is obvious why I consider washes to be the highways of the desert. And on a sunny, relaxed kind of day, I think they are fun. Good for putting some muscle on the horses, too!

Bandit DID get spooky once today. Back on pavement, someone had parked their truck on the side of the road. It hadn't been there when we headed out. Danger! Change! OMG!

Bandit and I started doing S-turns because we were NOT going to turn around and run away. I called for help, and my daughter brought Trooper up to the front. Bandit made certain Trooper was closer to the truck than he was - so Trooper would die first - and then we walked past. Trooper strolling, Bandit dancing at his shoulder.

I guess that is "*Welcome to MY world!*" So we danced while Trooper strolled, and Bandit showed no signs of embarrassment afterward. Bandit is who he is. He's actually pretty brave out in the desert. He's ALWAYS the first to try something that looks difficult or hazardous.

But a truck parked beside the road? A TRUCK! BESIDE THE ROAD! YGBSM!

Still, it makes me remember Mia. And a ride shouldn't be TOO mundane. And so I don't get upset with him, and he doesn't get upset back. We've become a part of each other's world. ​


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## egrogan

The first thing I notice is what an incredible blue the sky is. And all I can think of is how horribly sunburned I'd be if I rode there 

Thanks for the tour though! It's fun that your family is so into riding together.


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## bsms

It was a fun ride. It is interesting how horses get used to different environments. Bandit came from this:










Mia now has places to RUN, which is probably good for her. Bandit has taken a long time to get used to places where a horse is hemmed in. And I can't help but wonder what he'd do if confronted with a...cornfield:

"_An ARMY of skinny GREEN SNAKES! Standing at attention! Rustling! Hear that? Skinny Green RATTLESNAKES! Go in there? ARE YOU INSANE!_"​ 
We don't do any challenging riding. All of our riding today was in a section of 300 acres of so. We were never more than a mile from the house as the crow flies, although a crow can fly a much straighter line than a horse can walk in the Sonoran Desert!

There is more challenging terrain and desert not far away, but my DIL & daughter aren't all that adventurous anyways. And Bandit needs a foundation of "This is normal. I can do this." before we tackle harder stuff. I pushed Mia to progress faster than she was capable of, and then we'd go backwards. Often literally...

But between going for a two-legged run yesterday and today's ride on Bandit where it seemed like we were always going up or down, and only level when transitioning between the two...my back is throbbing. It was fun though. And SPF50 is my friend!

Oh...and all three of my horses think a single drop of rain hitting their backs is EVIL. Pure EVIL. Every bit as bad as a truck parked by the side of the road...:???:

PS - Seems I can't post a picture of Mia without missing her. But I don't know if I could EVER have gotten to where I could ride her where I rode Bandit today. But I still miss her.


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## phantomhorse13

bsms said:


> Bandit has taken a long time to get used to places where a horse is hemmed in. And I can't help but wonder what he'd do if confronted with a...cornfield


Well, I can describe to you what Phin thought of a cornfield the first time he saw one (h*ll, what he still thinks of them some days!). Having gone from Arizona to a big field on the side of a hill in West Virginia, I am pretty sure I got to experience his first time seeing such a horror. Because like Bandit and the washes.. the corn itself isn't the issue so much as the surprises that come out of it!! :rofl:


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## bsms

Some pictures I came across that I found interesting - click on them to enlarge:








​ 







​ 







​ 
The sheer WORK involved in getting READY for work was incredible.

Started reading a book on the gunfight at the OK Corral yesterday. One of Wyatt Earp's early jobs, in his teens, was hauling freight from San Bernardino CA to Prescott Arizona and back in the late 1860s. I still have a hard time imagining it - moving freight, using horses and carts, from San Bernardino CA to Prescott Arizona just after the Civil War - at an age where most kids are now in high school!

Another story from the book: A reporter from Chicago took the stage from Tucson to Tombstone. It cost $10 at a time when working men made $25-30/month. It took 17+ hours in the stage coach, with an overnight stop. At the stop, a fellow traveler complained about eating that staple of western food - BEANS! Made it clear he would NOT suffer the indignity of eating more BEANS!

Another passenger pulled his Colt Single Action Army revolver, cocked it, stuck it against the man's temple...and told him to shut up and eat his beans. The man did, and arrived alive at Tombstone the following day. :clap:

I probably shouldn't laugh, but the parent in me gets a kick out of the mental picture...

Nothing to do with Bandit or Cowboy or Trooper. Just sharing some stories and pictures.


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## bsms

I'm copying some stuff I posted on gottatrot's journal, with some editing and expansion (boldface note). Then I'll add some thoughts at the end.



bsms said:


> I twisted my knee a couple of days ago while out jogging. Had to limp home. Used a knee support for the rest of the day.
> 
> Riding today, I initially lengthened my stirrups to where they were about to fall off my foot. It felt good for my knee, but Bandit was having one of his days...his "[expletive deleted] you!" days. Probably spent about 45 minutes out of 75 minutes riding giving me the Middle Hoof Salute, and me giving him the Middle Finger Salute back.
> 
> In that sense, he is not at all like Mia. Mia was always very willing, but not always able. Bandit has days where he is completely able, but not the least bit willing. I joke that it is being a mix of Arabian/Mustang, because I've had people who owned mustangs tell me mustangs are like that sometimes - just not in the mood, regardless of what the question is. On any given day, I don't know if I'm going to ride an Arabian or a Mustang, but I usually find out 10 minutes into the ride.
> 
> Anyways, when I shortened the stirrups at a Stop & Munch, things felt GREAT - except my knee started aching. It obviously is not swollen, red...nothing to see or feel. But I sure can feel it! During the intervals on the ride home where Bandit and I weren't arguing, I'd stretch my knee.
> 
> I suspect that happens to horses, too. They twist or overuse something, their leg gets sensitive, and since they ALWAYS use their legs, it takes a long time to fully heal. Nothing visible, but then it aches. A willing horse will try, but just can't say, "Bob, my leg is achy".
> 
> Bandit's attitude today wasn't an ache. I'm sure of that. He just had attitude. I spent part of the ride thinking of the video of Halla, moving her head side to side while going forward. Bandit did that a lot today, went behind the vertical a lot, got prancy and snorty - just full of himself.
> 
> *[Note - It was most pronounced about 45 minutes into the ride. We were just heading home along a fairly smooth section of trail. But we had finished riding thru a section of human neighborhood he hadn't been in for a year or so, and he only kept going forward a few times because Trooper and Cowboy were along side of him, and his pride would NOT allow him to fall BEHIND them! He wasn't truly scared, but he'd have preferred to go another way.
> 
> Except there wasn't another way. Not without making the ride much longer, and forcing him to go places he also would not like. Sometimes, I do know better than my horse! A rocky patch of 100 yards might need to be crossed to save a couple of miles of riding. I know that, but Bandit just thinks about the rocky patch ahead. This is all VERY different from a FRIGHTENED horse. Balking from fear is one thing. Balking because "I don't wanna" is another. I don't recall Mia EVER giving an "I don't wanna" balk. If she was able to go, she'd go. Very sweet, very willing. Just sometimes unable.
> 
> But that is not Bandit.
> 
> So at this point, I turned him into a wash that would get us home fast. Bandit had only been in that section of the wash once before, but it is only a couple hundred yards from a section of the wash where he has been at least 100 times. And Bandit balked. After a couple hundred yards of head tossing and saying "Nya-nya-nya, you aren't the boss of me!"...he refused.
> 
> He wasn't scared. After 2 years of riding him, I can usually tell.
> 
> So we started spinning and working like something out of a Clinton Anderson video. I don't like CA, but I've tried to admit regularly that he has helped a lot of people with certain types of problems. So Bandit and I did some spinning, some tight serpentines, some back & spins, about half initiated by Bandit and about half by me.
> 
> Then I said What the H E double L, took out all the slack from the reins, and kicked him hard in the gut. Didn't know if he'd buck, spin, rear or go forward, but I planned on staying with him. And he jumped forward, like he was going to leap into a canter...but the sand was DEEP. So the next couple of strides were at a trot. But the sand was DEEP. So then we did a high stepping walk, down the narrow but smooth wash, for 200 yards - and came out where Bandit had been 100+ times before.
> 
> Meanwhile, the other two strolled along behind us, smoking their joints and wondering if they should share their stash with Bandit.
> 
> And when Bandit realized where we were, he snorted...and calmed down. At least for the next half mile, until we got home to our little arena.]
> *
> ....edited as irrelevant here...
> 
> _Stop & Munch_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​


That was in response to a post about @*egrogan* 's Izzy.

In response to a post by @*Hondo* , I added:



bsms said:


> My daughter's comment at the end of the ride:
> 
> "_And you wonder why he's always covered with bite marks?_"
> 
> :think:​





Hondo said:


> ...Dragon is the most submissive horse on the ranch. No attitude whatsoever that I see. Why he gets picked on I have no idea.
> 
> My position remains, which both you and your daughter disagree with, that both you and your daughter are wrong and the horse is right...


Well, maybe the difference is that I do know why the other horses get fed up with Bandit at times. Like when he stomps all the water out of their buckets. Or when he sneaks up behind them and nips them (without biting) on the butt, trying to get them to chase him. Or when he decides there is a threat they need to respond to, and they disagree and want to stand still and swat flies off of each other's face. Like when he pulls a tool out of the farrier's pocket. Or tries to take advantage of the other horse's immobility while being trimmed to nip the other horse.

Or like at the end of the ride today, when I asked him for a canter and he gave me a crow-hopping canter for most of a lap, then settled into a nice smooth canter for a lap, and I stopped him. Took his bridle off, hung it on the end of the fence, started to removed his saddle...and he pulled the bridle off the fence and threw it on the ground. Then looked at me. And THEN my daughter said, "*And you wonder why he's always covered with bite marks?*"

In some ways, he reminds me of Lilly - a purebred Arabian mare I really liked. Lilly was MUCH more polite, but if you offended her sensibilities, she'd give you a ton of attitude. And Cowboy has attitude in spades, at times.

My son got his third ride in his life on Cowboy a little while back. At the end, he decided to try trotting Cowboy around the arena - while the other horses were getting their tack removed. Cowboy went into a stiff-legged trot. His trot is never smooth, but he can trot in a way that makes you want to pee blood! So a half-lap later, my son cued a stop and shouted, "He's slapping my balls. Cowboy is spanking my balls!"

Even I doubled over laughing at that. Yes, when Cowboy feels put upon, he can get your attention. Particularly if you are male and want to trot when the other horses are calling it a day!

I don't really mind Bandit having attitude. Or being mischievous. I tried to teach him to talk to me, and I succeeded! Not sure I always want to hear what he has to say, but we work it out between us.

And Bandit being Bandit, I can go ride him tomorrow with no hard feelings. He doesn't hold grudges. He won't be upset. He'd probably be much harder to ride tomorrow if I hadn't offered him some attitude back...

*Bandit is not Mia.*​ 
That is bad in some ways, and great in others. He is NOT a nervous or high-strung horse. He has some attitude. He doesn't mind telling me where to go. But he also doesn't mind if I cuss or get annoyed with him. He's not Mia, and I cannot afford to ride him as if he were. And the flip is also true: It would be wrong to ride Mia the way Bandit needs to be ridden.


----------



## waresbear

I would ride any horse you gave me through that desert, that looks so awesome! Dang, wish our plans to retire to Arizona could have worked out, *sigh* but no, I get this crap or worse, ice, for 5 months:


----------



## bsms

These are posts I made is response to a discussion on gottatrot's journal. Some NH trainers say the horse is never wrong. I think they are, and try to explain why, and why my approach with Bandit is evolving and not staying like my approach to Mia:



bsms said:


> ...In communication, context is critical. I've had Mia behave that way, particularly at the beginning of a ride, and all she meant was:
> 
> "_Gotta get out! Gotta get Going! Gotta Move! Shake the boogers out of my brain!" Then, looking back at the other horses, "Come OONNNNN, lardbuckets! We're burning daylight!"_
> 
> But 45-60 minutes into the ride, and having ridden Bandit for 2 years now, I'm pretty sure he was saying, "_I'm SOOO not in the mood. Mood for what? ANYTHING! Not in the mood. Not in the mood. NOT IN THE MOOD!_" And when I cued him to turn off the road and into the wash, an unfamiliar section of wash, he decided it was time to chant, "*Heck No! We won't go!*"
> 
> Not fear. Oh, he might have been a little worried, but his worries weren't very strong. His worry was an excuse to make a stand there: "_You aren't the boss of me!_"
> 
> I'm not huge on dominating horses, but I'm also not big on letting them make critical decisions - like which route we take home! My wife was watching our grandson and needed to be relieved so she could go to work. We needed to get back and not spend the next 3 hours wandering aimlessly around under Bandit's control.
> 
> There were multiple ways of handling it. I could have turned him around, put him on the rear side of the other two horses, and let him follow or be left behind. I'm about 99% certain that would have worked. I could have dismounted, and maybe led him - although since this wasn't a fear issue, that might not have worked.
> 
> But I chose to make a stand too - that sometimes Bandit needs to accept my judgment and direction even if he doesn't feel like it. Why? Because I truly DO know more than my horse. Not about everything, but the map in my head and what route can get us home is much more accurate than what is in his head. At least when I can see and know where I am! And if that means crossing 100' of rocky terrain, or pushing between some bushes, or going somewhere he hasn't seen in a year (or ever)...so be it.
> 
> My horse isn't always right. Not even close to it. My horses - all of them - regularly misjudge things. Their sense of what is dangerous is USUALLY not nearly as good as mine. And they have no concept that spending the next hundred yards being uncomfortable will gain them an easy, smooth path home.
> 
> About 5-10 minutes earlier, we had to pass on a paved road going over drainage pipes. Bandit can sense them even when he cannot see them - and it truly worries him. At those two places, Trooper and Cowboy came up, and the three of us crossed over side by side. A year ago, Bandit would not have trusted Cowboy and Trooper enough for that to make any difference to him. Now he does. And he trusts my judgment more than he used to trust it.
> 
> Had I been solo, I would have dismounted at those spots and led him - even if it took 5-10 minutes. *Genuine fear or deep concern is one thing. Telling me to take a direct route to Hades is another.*
> 
> I don't remember Mia EVER balking out of stubbornness. She'd go until she couldn't, and THEN balk. She would RUN out of excitement and pleasure, and get really upset about needing to slow - and that was dangerous because she didn't REALLY care WHERE she ran, once she got going fast! We had some battles over slowing or stopping before a bunch of rocks or a paved road...but she never balked except for deep fear.
> 
> Bandit is different. He needs to be ridden differently and trained (taught) differently. He isn't Halla, Hondo, Mia, Lilly or Cowboy. Did I make the right decision? I think so. I don't think he would have actually walked - on alert, but WALKED - down the wash because I kicked him in the gut with my heels if he had been too afraid. He didn't spin, rear or buck, so he didn't feel it was impossible. I didn't use a whip, spurs or crop. I know Bandit. If he had been truly afraid, he'd have spun hard and refused no matter how much I kicked him. Like Mia, a whip or spurs or a crop or anything else would not make him move if he was deeply afraid. But his behavior when afraid is different too. And learning to READ my horse correctly is a huge part of learning to ride well.
> 
> It involves making mistakes. I'm allowed to make them, just as Bandit is and Mia was. My horses have never held my mistakes against me any more than I hold theirs against them. But I may differ from some because I *DO* believe my horse is sometimes wrong. He isn't a mystical being descended from heaven. He's fallible - like me. He made a bad choice yesterday. And we worked thru it. I may make a bad one today - but I don't think I did yesterday. I think Mia and Bandit share this: Neither would respect a push-over.
> 
> Mia's current owner is a Clinton Anderson fan. He's also a big, strong guy with depths of endurance my 59 year old body cannot match. He went 4 hours working Mia from the ground once. I was exhausted watching, but he was smiling (and his smile got BIGGER with each hour!) - and at the end, *Mia was happy too*. His approach to riding is much more dominating than mine, but I really believed Mia was going to be content with him. I wouldn't have made the trade otherwise.
> 
> I don't like all that he did with Bandit because I think Bandit was too often pushed thru things when Bandit needed an explanation instead. But I want to be honest. Much of Bandit's improvement has been simple acclimatization - getting used to his new surroundings. Some of it IS trust - growing trust for me, and growing trust in Cowboy and Trooper. Cowboy and Trooper are now allies who can help me teach Bandit, unlike a year ago when Bandit didn't care WHAT they thought. But Bandit is also capable of giving his rider The Middle Hood Salute. When he does, like Mia, I think he needs someone to go toe to hoof with him.
> 
> Maybe I'm wrong. Time will tell.





bsms said:


> I think horses can very a lot, and I've gotten very careful about saying "Never" or "Always".
> 
> I'm 100% certain that many people have never dealt with a horse like Mia. So they would tell me it was MY nervousness that made her spooky, or that I just needed to "push her past things" - to include the advice "Get a bigger whip!" People like SueC & gottatrot would share what they had seen or done, and I could replicate it with Mia. What many others said to do - move her feet, circle her, act confident, etc - it just didn't work. But that doesn't mean it doesn't work with SOME horses. I may not care for Clinton Anderson, but I've read a lot of posts on HF saying "His method turned my horse around..." - and who am I to deny them?
> 
> Mia was a bit of an extreme, but it probably took an extreme horse to teach me how many experts are wrong.
> 
> *Bandit is not a nervous horse. He is cautious, but he is NOT high-strung, super-sensitive, etc. He is also not always willing. He can be pig-headed. That doesn't bother me. I'm pig-headed too.
> *
> Some of what I learned with Mia has been very helpful with Bandit. But some of what I learned I need to store in the attic, until I find myself dealing (if ever) with another high-strung horse. And at 59, Bandit could be my last horse. *So I need to learn to train and ride the horse I've got, not the horse I had.*
> 
> Mia, for whatever issues she had, was a genuine sweetheart compared to Bandit. A more dangerous ride. Not as trustworthy as Bandit. Bandit has many qualities, though. He is often willing, often in a good mood, likes to get out, feels responsible for the herd and accepts challenges. If we were in a tight spot, I'd trust Bandit to give his best. I'm regularly riding him in spots I never came close to daring with Mia. I need to appreciate him for who he is. And the truth is...he is NOT the most sensitive of souls.


http://www.horseforum.com/member-journals/why-i-gotta-trot-645777/page61/#post9977433

I learned a lot about riding and training - because you cannot do one regularly without also doing the other - nervous, high-strung horses from Mia. Many of the things people said worked for them I tried - and they didn't work with Mia. Doesn't mean anyone was lying to me. But there are certainly people with many years of experience who never rode a horse like Mia.

Bandit is unique, as all horses are, but he's a more common type. He isn't an extreme horse in any sense. I want him to enjoy our rides, and I think he often does. We get along well, mostly. But he is NOT the arch-typical Arabian mare. He is more of what you would expect from a Mustang/Arabian mix gelding. By the time we leave the pavement and enter the desert, I usually know which half I'm riding that day. And I appreciate both halves. But there are days he needs my understanding, and days more like this:


----------



## bsms

A couple of old videos (April 2014) my youngest found on her computer. The first is just Mia & her herd helping to clean the backyard. The second is just 15 seconds...Trooper and Cowboy are cleaning weeds in the backyard. At the end, you can see Mia following me in the corral as I clean up the poop. Don't know if that qualifies as "Join-up" or not...











Since it was very hot, I hosed the horses down this afternoon. Trooper may not like me, but even he stuck around to get cold water sprayed on him. Then I let them out to roam in the extended back yard. Naturally, they went to the place with dried poop and rolled. Bandit managed to cover himself from ear to tail in old poop. Nirvana...

About an hour later, I brought the garbage cans in from the street. Cowboy was back in the corral, and he and Trooper were playing Bitey Face at the north end of the corral - with the corral panel separating them. Bandit was standing there, but they refuse to play with Bandit most of the time. Like today.

As I brought the garbage can to the south side of the corral, Bandit made his way from the far end, past the narrow spot, between two small trees, and joined me. Not sure if that is "Join-up" either, but he didn't seem too traumatized by our argument yesterday. I couldn't find a clean spot to scratch. I asked him if he wanted some hay. He blew snot on my arm.

Studies of wild horses show blowing snot on the forearm is incredibly disrespectful and a sign of failed leadership by the snottee.

OK, I just made that up. Sometimes snot is just snot.

So I got a flake of alfalfa, and Bandit followed me into the corral. I guess he "Hooked on" to the hay, because he stayed by the bucket and ate. The second flake got Cowboy's attention, and Trooper wandered around from the far end as I brought in a third flake. He may not like me, but he's not going to let that get in the way of eating!

So another low-key day and low-key ending. No riding. I didn't do anything to improve my standing with the horses. Wasn't a strong leader or anything. But they didn't seem to mind.


----------



## horseluvr2524

egrogan said:


> The first thing I notice is what an incredible blue the sky is. And all I can think of is how horribly sunburned I'd be if I rode there
> 
> Thanks for the tour though! It's fun that your family is so into riding together.


The bane of my existence... I have very fair skin that burns from sun exposure faster and more easily than most people. So I get to be miserable in long sleeve shirts that button at the neck and be covered everywhere except face and hands. Even then, my face is usually slathered in sunscreen and covered by a hat or helmet.

That and the half hour ride on the roads is all worth it though when I finally get to my rock free trail and just let go for a bit... :gallop:


----------



## bsms

Started this on another thread, got part of it typed out, and then wondered if I wasn't really sidetracking someone else's journal. Since it is a rambling, I'll place it here:

Hmmmm...Mia was a fundamentally willing horse. And she was pretty light in an arena, where slowing meant saying "Easy". But get her out in the open, and slowing her might mean a Pulley Rein stop, or strong insisting with a curb bit.

I'd like to think that I could have trained her to slow better if I had a place where I could run her consistently. But since I didn't, that would always have been a challenge. And since she was competitive, slowing while another horse was still running would have been very hard for her.

Philosophically, if a horse trained for lightness consistently obeys light cues...is that a horse who shares in the decision-making process? Or is that a horse who is expected to lightly yield to his rider's wishes? If you lightly suggest it is time to trot, and the horse consistently yields, then how does he tell you his feet are tired and the ground a little rocky, and I'd rather not trot right now?

In some contexts, the horse cannot afford to have an opinion, or at least cannot afford to express it. When it was time for the cavalry to charge, it was NOT time for a horse to say he was tired and would rather charge tomorrow, preferably after a good meal and a rub down! And neither sheepherder nor horse can be to thrilled at saddling up and moving out when it is 20 below - and the sheep still need tending!

I don't know if there is a right answer. It might be one of those things that each rider and each horse needs to explore on their own. One of the ladies I took lessons from came from a Western Pleasure background. You don't win much in WP if, in mid-competition, your horse says, "_I spent 8 hours standing in a trailer, I'm hot, tired and we can save the cantering for tomorrow!_" And since she was used to being judged, teaching "_Seat, leg, reins if needed_" made sense.

I get in trouble posting on a lot of threads because my goals are so out of touch with much of the riding world. Littauer recommended 3 levels on control (cues), but his levels were completely based on Dressage - which he claimed to reject. My own interests lie in Craigslist horses ridden by week-end riders.



bsms said:


> ......On a separate but related issue: "soft cues"
> 
> I've come to view Cowboy as being about 4 inches shorter than my ideal horse. He's a bit too small for me, as a rule. But I REALLY like him. He has attitude, but the sort that says "Work with me". He's level-headed, knows what needs to be done, will listen to his rider if he gets scared, accepts a "Give & Take" approach to riding ("Let me grab a bite now and I'll cheerfully haul your butt across the spots everyone else dismounts for in 5 minutes"), cheerful, cautious but not cowardly. He proving himself to be a great horse with beginning level riders - if they will work with him. If they won't, he'll make them wish they had.
> 
> Cowboy takes larger cues than Bandit. That is fine by me. I don't value a high degree of subtlety with my cues. No one is watching. No one is judging. And my long-term goal with Bandit is to make him a good BEGINNER'S trail horse.
> 
> Neck reining, to me, means "_Move the reins forward 6" so the horse will know the next thing is a request to turn. Them move my hand left or right 6 inches._" I want my horse to respond well to an obvious request to turn - because I want him to be a horse just about anyone can ride...
> 
> ...*I've actually regressed in my riding, deliberately.* I almost never use my legs to cue a turn. I used to and Mia would do it very well. But I'm the only rider in my family who did it. And one day I asked myself: "_If my horse will turn fine when I move my hand forward and to the right, WHY do I also need to be cueing with my leg?_" If I regularly want my horse to continue straight ahead while I twist back and forth looking for a way to enter a wash, why would I want him to listen to "seat cues"? If he turns just fine combining his judgment with my hand motion, why worry?
> 
> I want a horse who can be ridden by a new rider with 5 minutes of instruction, and who will do so...well, like Cowboy does. So my goals in what cues to teach are Clear, Consistent and Simple...
> 
> ...My goal is for them to be trained to be ridden simply, by simple riders. And then to use THEIR judgment to get the rest of the job done.
> 
> Not objecting to anyone training [horse differently]. I just want Bandit to turn into Cowboy, only younger and 8 inches taller...
> :winetime:​


Littauer tried to strip jumping down to its bare essentials. He believed - and he kept track, so I guess it was more than just a belief - he could train 75% or more of his new students to jump 2.5-3 feet in 20 lessons. Provided they were the right lessons, and he had the right horses.

I guess my goal is stripped down far more: What does it take for a horse to be ridden safely in the desert in a small group? On the right horse?

And my idea for what to teach a horse comes from that goal. About all a horse can do is go forward, go back, go left or go right, or some variation on those. The rider needs to stay on, try to stay out of the way, and negotiate a mutually acceptable plan of action.


> You can also go online to find a web site that promises to teach you to ride in 4 days; that is* IF* you’re an adult and* IF* you spend from 9 AM to 5-6 PM in the saddle for those 4 days, on the trainer’s well trained horses. After 40 hours, an average adult _should_ be able to ride a reliable horse on a trail. They might not be able to walk the day after, but they will be able to ride a horse!! Seriously, can you imagine anyone who has never ridden putting in about 10 hours a day on a horse for 4 days in a row? Oh, the pain of it!
> 
> The length of time it takes to learn to ride boils down to who you are, what you want to do, and how much time you’re willing to invest. Learning to ride a quiet horse on trails can be achieved in 6 months, opening the door for a lifetime of enjoyable rides.
> 
> - How Long Does It Take To Learn To Ride A Horse? |


 I've had guys ride Trooper after about 5 minutes of instruction. On the trail, and off trail. With other riders who can give advice if needed.

My rancher friend sends new sheepherders out with two horses, needing to ride them alone in rough country, based on talking and showing them things for part of a day.

If it takes someone 6 months of instruction, just WHAT is that instructor teaching?


----------



## egrogan

@bsms, Izzy thought Bandit would appreciate this virtual Memorial Day postcard from our neighborhood ride this morning- so.many.trash.cans (and trash day's Wednesday!) and flags galore! :wink:


----------



## Reiningcatsanddogs

bsms said:


> Philosophically, if a horse trained for lightness consistently obeys light cues...*is that a horse who shares in the decision-making process? Or is that a horse who is expected to lightly yield to his rider's wishes?* If you lightly suggest it is time to trot, and the horse consistently yields, then how does he tell you his feet are tired and the ground a little rocky, and I'd rather not trot right now?



It is neither and it is both. It is a horse who willingly listens to his rider. This is the horse who is “with” you, as you are with him as Tom Dorrance would say. 

As to how do they tell you that maybe they are not up to the challenge? That is part of feel. 

Some riders are better at finding feel than others. 

You can feel it through the reins, you can feel it in the way they move, where their head is, the look in their eye, where their ears are… the whole package.


----------



## bsms

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> ...As to how do they tell you that maybe they are not up to the challenge? That is part of feel...You can feel it through the reins, you can feel it in the way they move, where their head is, the look in their eye, where their ears are… the whole package.


The problem I have with this is that many questions are not yes/no. If I ask for a trot with a kissing sound, and the horse declines my request...does that always mean no trotting? But if it is a good time to trot for a variety of reasons the horse may not appreciate, then do I repeat the kissing sound? Or do I kiss and squeeze?

When Mia was in the mood to slow down - like in an arena, where she quickly decided there was little to get excited about if running merely meant literally running in circles - then you could slow her with a whispered "Easy". On a trail stretching to the horizon? Forget it.

If there is a give and take between horse and rider, then I don't think highly consistent agreement in response to very soft (think of "whisper" instead of physically soft) cues is plausible. I don't see the mechanism, unless it is repeatedly offering the whispered cue - a whisper the horse has already said "No thank you" to. At some point, I think the rider needs to be able to say, "I don't think you understand - this is important to me even if you aren't in the mood!"

For example, per the other day, I needed to get home and relieve my wife of grandson-sitting duties so she could get to work on time. Bandit didn't know about that and probably wouldn't care. So told it was time to take a shortcut, he said, "See no value in it, not interested."

Nice, but the clock was ticking and we NEEDED to get back - for purely human reasons. Didn't matter if he felt like it, wanted to, was happy or reluctant - I needed to get back, and I didn't have time or interest in hearing the answer no. So it was time to up the ante.



> This is the horse who is “with” you, as you are with him as Tom Dorrance would say.


And in some settings, that is wonderful. If we are about to tackle a challenging bit of terrain, I really WANT my horse and I to be of one mind. But I also have something of the rancher in me...because sometimes my horse DOES need to just shut up and do the job.

In my concept of give and take, it is time to act like Bandit acts when he REALLY wants to be the first horse to eat the pellets. When that happens, #3 of 3 in the pecking order Bandit sends the other two horses running for cover. Most of the time, if told to move away from food, Bandit yields. But there is nothing soft about it when Bandit decides it is important to him!

I find 'softness' in the arena easy, because my horse rarely gives a rat's rear end about what we do next - in the arena. When my horse doesn't care, I don't need to shout. The shouting comes when my horse disagrees with me - as a partner is allowed to do, although a subordinate may not.

Then we have a debate, or heated discussion, while we settle on *who wants what the most*. If my horse cannot respond with, "Just who in the [expletive deleted] died and left YOU King of the World?"...then is he a partner? Or a subordinate? A marriage, or the military?

If my wife always said yes when I whispered a request, I'd wonder what space alien had taken over my wife's body! I wouldn't want her, or my horse, to be any other way. From our ride this morning:








​
Bandit already was getting unhappy about standing still, waiting for my daughter to take a posed picture. He doesn't believe in standing still, patiently, while we are out. Another picture, taken just a moment later, shows Bandit moving ahead, and the slack is gone as I try to keep him from surging towards Trooper.








​
Notice the difference in my leg, too. Not much softness going on! I didn't blame Bandit. I wasn't thrilled to pose there either. But my WIFE wanted it, and it was time for me to shut up and color. And for my horse too.

About a half-second after the second picture, I said "Aww Hellll..." and Bandit and I - at oneness, utterly "with" each other as I suppose the Dorrance brothers might say - turned around again and started covering ground. As one! Bandit may have heard what I muttered under my breath. And agreed. But it was best my wife didn't hear!

And my wife, who had gotten most of what she wanted there, didn't get upset. Bandit & I both gave her a good faith effort. But not softly. Neither of us. 

*It was one of those times where Bandit and I were truly a lot alike...

:loveshower:
*​


----------



## bsms

One more picture from today. My wife trying to use her phone to take a picture of my daughter who was taking a picture of us:










Cowboy being Cowboy, my wife didn't mind dropping the reins to concentrate on picture taking. It is one of those times where a wonderfully sensible pony demonstrates how to be a good trail horse. There is a reason why our grandkids will learn to ride on Cowboy...

PS - Probably the first time in 2 months or more that my wife has been on a horse. She will NEVER get to where she needs to ride refined - provided we have the right horses. She may ride 10 times in 2 weeks, then not again for 3 months. That is part of why I'm interested in horses who are simple rides.

PSS - Bandit is a simple ride too. Except for when he isn't. But he's becoming a good, ORDINARY horse.

*It's taken me 9 years to experience "normal"!*​ 
PSSS - Bandit behaved like a champ, overall. Unlike our last ride, we were very much in tune with each other today. And mostly relaxed. As long as we weren't being asked to pose for some blankety-blank pictures!

PSSSS - I have no idea how my wife was weighting her seat-bones. Good thing Cowboy didn't care!​​


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## horseluvr2524

Is that your wife in the last picture? Nice red boots! :grin:

Shan does the same thing. Standing still for longer than the two seconds it takes to consider how best to get down a hill or over some rocks makes her far too impatient. She won't even stand completely still for me to get on. I've kinda just accepted that and let her get away with it, so long as she swings in towards my body while I'm getting up and not away from it! She's good for DH to get on, so long as I stand at her head and hold her :lol:

Yet the same horse who doesn't like standing still while you are mounted will also stand quiet and steady for you on the ground when you dismount. She had no problem chilling and keeping me company in a very cowboyesque style while I picked up rocks along our galloping trail, even though she was out there alone, just her and me, and there were strange horses out trail riding (remember that horse phobia she used to have?).

I agree that while you can get a horse quiet and light in the arena, it may not always be that way on the trail. I wish I could watch those Olympic level horses out on a trail ride! I am ever so curious how those top level horses compare to 'hobby' horses.


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## bsms

Perhaps I'm approaching things from the wrong angle. Perhaps what is needed for teaching some types of softness is not in focusing on softer cues, but on removing the horse's resistance to listening.

For Bandit, for example: Certainly a part of why he now goes forward at my heel, when no amount of pressure used to, is because of the time teaching him his fears were baseless. Perhaps he can now follow Trooper's lead - such as when confronted by a BABY CARRIAGE today - because his fear is less. The fear used to out-shout Trooper's example. But with less fear, he can "hear" Trooper's example, and go past the baby carriage...well, not easily. But on a slack rein, with Trooper volunteering (at my daughter's request) to be the Sacrificial Lamb.

To that extent, if you remove the horse's resistance, he can hear the softer physical cue.

Of if you can convince the horse that X is enjoyable, it will be easier to convince him to do X at a light cue.

Although, if he REALLY likes X, he may then need a stronger cue to STOP doing X - such as Mia with running toward the horizon.

That gets back to trying to understand WHY a horse is willing to do X, or to stop doing X, and to try to remove whatever it is that makes listening too hard. All of which is a long-term process which may need a short-cut on any given day.

Also - my daughter and I went for a hike yesterday. One of the things we discussed was doing more road riding, in deference to Bandit's tender feet. She believes Trooper likes road riding - no decisions to make about where to go, smooth footing, and (for Trooper) no fear. One possibility is using Trooper this summer to build Bandit's acclimatization to human environments.








​


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## bsms

> Whenever my horses have had poor attitudes, not wanted to be caught, had difficulty being girthed, felt sluggish and lazy, been spooky, or wanted to rush and push through cues; *each time it has been removing a source of pain that improved my horse’s attitude*.
> 
> Horses are easy to train. They are willing creatures that head for the path of least resistance. Although they have a tremendous variety of personalities among them, they still are not ever evil or malicious. They may do things we dislike out of fear or high spirits, but the more we work with them, the more malleable they will be. *Any horse that does not seem cooperative or seems difficult to train has pain or fear that is blocking the process*. After a certain amount of time, fear resolves, but pain can keep a horse in a particular state for many months and even years....


 - @gottatrot

It?s Always Pain | Round Pen, Square Horse

Perhaps the pain is sometimes emotional or psychological?


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## gottatrot

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> It is neither and it is both. It is a horse who willingly listens to his rider. This is the horse who is “with” you, as you are with him as Tom Dorrance would say.
> 
> As to how do they tell you that maybe they are not up to the challenge? That is part of feel.
> 
> Some riders are better at finding feel than others.
> 
> You can feel it through the reins, you can feel it in the way they move, where their head is, the look in their eye, where their ears are… the whole package.


This is an interesting discussion, and I'm still thinking it through. One thing is the conflict of how long it might take a horse to become a certain way, what you might have to sacrifice for that goal, which comes down to the value you place on pursuing it.

This is something I ran into yesterday, a conflict of values which makes one person perceive a horse as having issues based on their experience and values, while another person might be perfectly happy with how the horse is. I'll write about that more on my journal. 

That goes along with the thought about whether a horse is a certain way (light) in every setting and situation, or only particular ones. For example, I rode Halla out alone last night, and was contemplating that I could still be riding her in a different bit if I just rode her by herself. It's the combination of endless, flat open space and competition from other horses that makes me need to use "more." 
When we rode with other horses competing on steep, twisting mountain trails, I could use less bit. And riding her alone last night she easily complied with much lighter bit cues to slow down or stop. Before going to the curb I currently use, I tried several bits when riding her alone, thought they were great, and then discovered they didn't work when we galloped with Nala. 
They still work for her when we are alone...the only thing that changes is her state of mind.

Regarding the above quote, I do believe some riders are better at finding feel. But I believe feel is not just something that belongs to a person, it is something that changes quite a bit between horses you are working with. My friends and I complain a lot about horses that won't tell you anything. It has happened that we discover a horse has had pain and remained silent and stoic about it while being ridden. 

The longer you work with a horse, the more you get to know all their subtle cues. So while you might be able to get a feel for a horse that you just met, and good horsemen can do this well, that knowledge of the horse will get expounded on over time if you keep working with the horse. 
But there are some horses that will scream their feelings at you, and some that are so difficult to read that it is almost impossible to tell what their opinion is. 

I have to say that the only horses I've been around that were always light, every time, were that way because of issues. I'm not saying this is the case with Oliver, or with another horse I know that is being trained with a long, slow natural method. 

With that horse, however, I know that the owner believes you can never take a step beyond where you're at until the horse keeps responding perfectly and lightly, and each time this doesn't happen you go back a step. So three years in, the horse does not go out on trails alone, or canter out on the beach, because she hasn't achieved that yet. She may yet get there someday. 

But her horse has an easier mind than Halla, for instance, or Amore. If I were to go that route I'd be a few steps behind where she's at, but after maybe 8 years of training. My values are different, and I'd rather use a combination of riding skills and tack to find a way that I can get the horse out and working hard for me even if the horse is not calm at every moment or super light. 
Perhaps I am wrong, but I don't see signs of unhappiness, and I don't believe that excitement/high spiritedness equates unhappiness as some do. 

I read about this a lot on bitless pages, with people scolding those whose horses are doing hunting with galloping and jumping in groups of excited horses, and they find they can't do it on certain horses without leverage. So they ask how it can be done, and are told they must just not take the horse out doing these things until they've spent months and years working off seat and legs alone, somehow (and I find this all mysterious) getting the hot, competitive horse to rate up to the jump, to turn at the last second at 25 mph, and slow down two notches when breathing fire eye-to-eye with another horse with a seat cue. 

The reason I find this mysterious is because I've trained horses to do hard stops, turns, and change gaits off the seat, but I've never yet been on a horse so finely tuned that they would rate up and down in the gallop off the seat. Trot and walk, yes. Canter, yes. Gallop, no. Reins are such useful tools. It's so easy to use them to rate a horse, set them up for a jump, or do a quick turn when heading straight for a tree. I don't see why I wouldn't use them that way. 

The horses I've been involved with that were super light in all situations were mental messes, because they were brought there unwillingly. Poor Scout, he'd leap or spin off the slightest cue, but would protest nothing, not even the screw that was sticking out under the saddle and digging into his spine - until we noticed the hematoma that formed. 

Another reining horse and a WP horse, both so light but unable to communicate. I couldn't get a feel at all for how they felt except for lame/not lame. They would always go/stop/transition off a light cue, all the time. So I've spent time un-lightening horses. I didn't want Scout to be sweating stiffly with a deadpan expression while trying to figure out if I meant to shift my weight to the side a half inch and if he'd turned fast enough. He'd try to respond quickly so he wouldn't get punished, but sometimes he'd guess wrong and then he'd freeze up while waiting for you to punish him.

If a trainer values lightness, and wants it in every setting, they can work on it extensively and do it with kindness without making the horse mentally unstable, I believe. If teaching lightness is a rushed process that only involves punishment, it can really mess up a horse and make it impossible to get a feel with them, due to their reluctance to communicate. I've seen riders with horses that looked to one side at movement and got a blow to the head for "spooking." Obviously this type of training shuts down communication completely. The horse stops showing even normal body language or environmental interest. 

But I don't think every horse can be taught lightness in every setting, but perhaps it could be done over many years of training if the horse never had an opportunity to learn they could ignore a light cue and run through it.

It's like people who teach a dog to watch them and focus on them, it works to get a very light and well trained dog, "with them" as Dorrance might say. But not every dog is able to keep that focus while running him with a pack of dogs chasing deer, because natural high spirits and instinct might take over. Even with a lot of training, you might need a leash and some correction and still have a mind that is a little split between interests. And a Papillon might learn to still be with you after acclimating, but a Husky might not.


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> 613]
> It?s Always Pain | Round Pen, Square Horse
> 
> Perhaps the pain is sometimes emotional or psychological?


Interesting to read an old blog post...I always stand behind my words but also keep learning, and what we write is often a snapshot of what we understand currently. 

There was pain, and my horse became so much calmer minded with different tack. I've seen this a few times with the ulcers, vitamin E deficiency, etc. But unfortunately there are a few factors that go into a horse being calm, including acclimating to the setting/situation, going out with other horses (or not), etc. 
However, the difference for Halla is hysterical and running through everything, versus a calm mind but still consciously strong and willful about choosing speed at times.

For me, there is a big difference between an anxious horse running through cues and an excited but happy horse asking to keep going, but complying with cues (even if they are somewhat strong at times).

So as you know, the bitless did not work long term, and although a bitless with a little more leverage did work, I found it easier for me to use the curb, which has clearer turning signals.


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## horseluvr2524

Perhaps it is from years of riding a certain type of horse, but horses that have so much go they don't like stopping really frighten me. I do my best not to communicate that to such a horse when I ride, but those types of horses are not my favorite ride. Thus why, unless I happened across one of those rare exceptions, I will never be an arab person. I love all horses though, so what is my favorite and not my favorite has little meaning.

I enjoy a horse that even in the excitement of a race will come down off the adrenaline high and listen to me, even if I have to shout a bit signal wise to get through. I've ridden horses that even if you shout couldn't give a flying bucket of manure what you thought. There is something so incredible to me about taking a horse out for a gallop, and mid-run while they are clearly enjoying themselves, slow down when asked. Having such a powerful animal not only allowing me to take part in his world, but actually listen to my requests and make me feel like I'm actually commander in chief in control (control over a thousand pound animal is really an illusion, IMO) is truly amazing.

That's why, honestly... the people that think it is so horrible how horses are 'controlled' and 'mastered over' are kind of funny to me. I truly believe that if any horse really wanted to, they are more than capable of enacting their freedom and will. It just proves what an incredible, amiable animal they are... for example, that Shan will even allow me to tell her "eh! wrong answer".

Maybe not, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe horses are not capable of overpowering us when they are covered in tack contraptions and human manipulations. I just am reminded of some elephant cases I've read about. Humans think they can control an elephant with the bull hook. Some elephants have proved how silly that notion is.


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## bsms

My first real lesson in horses came when people told me to just push Mia past things. If need be, "Get a bigger whip!" Which I did, doubling over an 8' long split rein, so a double strap, 4' long, of heavy leather. And I used it. With increasing vigor, as we went increasingly fast. Backwards! She had 4 feet on the ground. I had zero. So if she wanted to enough, we would go ANYWHERE she wanted, at whatever speed she wanted.

I also had a horse years ago, visiting a ranch, bolt. When I pulled his head around, so his nose was at my knee, we were still bolting straight ahead. Except now he couldn't see where we were going.

Tack can raise the cost of disobeying a rider, but it can't prevent the horse from disobeying.

I love gotttrot's post 843. I sometimes wish HF had a string of buttons, not just "like". From "Double love!" down to "Are you insane?".

Some of it involves individual choice and values. But to the extent a horse is a living person, with strong emotions and individual thoughts, then softness seems like the wrong goal. Understanding soft cues, and able to respond? Yes! That is wonderful. Frequently WILLING to respond? That can be great too. I sure wouldn't want to fight with my horse every step of the way, or even every ride.

But when people tell me - always on the Internet, so I cannot check - that their horse does everything on a trail ride with seat cues, I'm reminded of a time my Mom came back from a formal dinner. She was dripping with contempt for the base chaplain (I'm a military brat). She was sitting next to him for the entire dinner, and he went on and on about his perfect marriage and how he & his wife never argued or got upset.

"_What's wrong with that?_", I asked.

"_A chaplain shouldn't lie, at least not repeatedly and in public!_", she replied. 

"_And besides...I've MET his wife!_" 



bsms said:


> ...If my horse cannot respond with, "Just who in the [expletive deleted] died and left YOU King of the World?"...then is [it] A marriage, or the military?
> 
> If my wife always said yes when I whispered a request, I'd wonder what space alien had taken over my wife's body! [It would scare the heck out of me....:eek_color:]
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> ...Not much softness going on! I didn't blame Bandit. I wasn't thrilled to pose there either...
> 
> About a half-second after the second picture, I said "Aww Hellll..." and Bandit and I...turned around again and started covering ground. As one!
> 
> ...Bandit & I both gave her a good faith effort. But not softly. Neither of us.*It was one of those times where Bandit and I were truly a lot alike...
> *


Some days are diamonds, some days are coal. Yesterday, Bandit and I worked fine together. We were on the same team, if not always of the same mind. Marriages involve "Mutually Acceptable Compromise". A wife who lived to please my every whim would belong in a padded cell, not on a trail ride with me. Same with a horse, IMHO.

Bandit likes to move. Good horse! Bandit doesn't want to stand still unless there is something to eat. Good horse! Bandit feels free to TELL me he doesn't want to stand there, and won't much longer! That is fine too.

I tend to relate to middle-aged riders who take up riding when well aware of their mortality. But too many clinics and NH videos seems to promise the "perfect" marriage of rider and horse. Some promise it using force. Others say you can charm your spouse into submissiveness. Part of me likes the terminology of getting a horse's mind with the rider, but not when the rider wants it to happen 100% of the time. That's a zombie, not a horse!

People are told they need flawless "body control" in the arena before they can ride on a trail. But a horse can go left, right, forward or back, or some combination of those - and it can ALWAYS choose a different combination than what it's rider says.

Seems to me a lot of those middle-aged beginners should be told the truth: Sometimes, you just need to ride things out. And then be taught some tips on riding things out.

A dressage position is NOT the best way to ride out a horse. Shoulder / hips / heel in a vertical line has nothing to do with handling a scared or resisting horse.

I keep trying to shorten my stirrups so I can free up my horse's back, the way VS Littauer taught. But darn it! When my horse gets fussy, I like having my legs as far around my horse as I can get.

They need to be told that too little bit is as cruel as too much bit, and that not all horses can be ridden bitless.

Very few problems cannot be handled with some degree of success if you can stay on and not throw your horse off balance. The middle-aged weekend riders need to learn about simple riding, and staying on, and sometimes arguing with your horse. Refinement can come later. If at all. Because a week-end rider out on a trail doesn't spend the time it takes for horse and rider to achieve great refinement.

Someone riding a bridle horse in front of middle-aged beginners isn't doing the new riders a favor. Someone teaching "collection" to middle-aged beginners isn't doing the new riders a favor. Someone talking about seat cues, and never needing to use more than a pinkie on the reins to middle-aged beginners isn't doing the new riders a favor.

If, after 6 months or 6 years or 16 years, the no-longer new riders want to explore more advanced riding, great! But it seems to me too much of the industry sets an imaginary goal of flawless control BEFORE anyone can trail ride. And I don't think we ever truly control our horses. Most of us should be happy if we're just on the same team...and can just stay on and stay out of the way long enough for some teamwork to develop. 

< / long rant >


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## waresbear

One of these days, Imma come riding with you bsms.


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## bsms

Bandit's front right foot:










It has been 8 weeks since his last trim. Frog depth (if I measured it right) is about 5/8", or 15 mm.The farrier & I are going to talk in an hour about putting shoes on his front feet. He did fine yesterday on pavement, crossing the desert and in the wash. He stumbles a lot on the ATV trails that make up most of our riding trails.

He also splashes water out of the buckets and stands in the mud. Could be cooling his feet on a hot day, or it could all be play. He sometimes drags a water bucket around if it isn't too heavy. But I wonder if he isn't also seeking some relief for his feet.

He spent one month here with shoes on front - pulled the back ones right away but left the front ones. IIRC, he didn't stumble on the ATV trails like he has since. The only trimming done in the last 8 weeks is beveling the toe a couple of times. Otherwise the toe seems to stretch out.

Any thoughts? I really know nothing about hooves, other than Mia and my other horses all have been fine...so I kind of have an idea of what "workable" looks like.

Bandit's other front hoof looks better. Seems odd, because it was his LEFT front that he was using at a 45 degree angle when he came here. It took about 8 months for him to consistently use his left leg straight (or closer to straight). Over the last year, his left shoulder has gotten bigger. Heck, BANDIT has gotten bigger - gone from a 26" cinch to fitting OK in a 28" one.

I'm inclined to say, "Shoe him. If it doesn't work, then pull the shoes and try something else." If he is shod, it will be from May-Nov, which are our main riding months. We get very little riding in, and then mostly on pavement and the arena, from Dec-Apr.


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## bsms

Bandit has shoes on front now. The farrier said his left foot was firm but his right front sole was kind of soft. Options were to try boots or shoes. I opted to try shoes. I walked Bandit after he got one shoe on, and he walked fine. Same with two shoes. The farrier will come back in 6 weeks instead of 8 and will stop by sooner if I feel they need to be pulled.

He only charged $20 more than for a trim. I mentioned that it was less than I expected. He said we were long time customers, Bandit's feet needed very little prep, and Bandit behaved so well that shoeing took less time than a lot of horses took for a trim.

And I WAS proud of Bandit. As soon as the farrier started to bend over at each leg, Bandit lifted his foot to knee height and waited. He didn't move a muscle while getting shod. When asked to bring his foot forward, he promptly put it on the rest: "_Ah, nice of you to put this here for me!_"

​ 
So we'll try it. If it doesn't help, we'll know it is NOT the right answer.


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## waresbear

Never mind come riding with you, I am going to come and trim those hooves. He has a marvelous frog, beautiful toes, however his bars are overgrown causing his heels to underrun, he's not balanced.


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## bsms

Just tried looking up overgrown bars, but couldn't figure out what I was reading.


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## waresbear

The bars are part of the sole, left untrimmed, they grow up and out, like your horse's and cause the heels to underrun, or they grow inward, then the horse feels soreness, like walking around with ingrown toenails. Some farriers argue that the bars are there for support, nonsense, they grow just like the hoof and should be trimmed otherwise you get the problems I mentioned. Here is my daughter's horse trimmed a month ago, bars left, heels underrun, by a certified farrier. I get called because her horse is lame, so I balanced her up and fixed the bars and brought back the heel so everything is hitting the ground equally.

Notice how her heels are not at the back by the bulb of her frog? That is unbalanced, her toes are stretched as well.








I trimmed her bars, brought the heel and toe back under this mare, she's balanced now.


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## bsms

I took a camera out with me feeding the horses, but forgot to grab a hoof pick. Here are Bandit's feet, now shod, left front and right front:








​ 
I don't recall any of the trimmers trimming the bars much, except one - and the horses were so sore for the next few days that we never brought him back.

The bars on Bandit's seem more flared out to me than they were just a few days ago. We went on some really rocky spots yesterday. I dismounted because he didn't need my weight added to his, but the rocks chewed up his feet some. I'll try to get some pictures of Cowboy's feet tomorrow for comparison.

My horses' feet never look like what I see pictures of on the Internet. My horses NEVER have "concave soles" - not unless they are trimmed to make them concave, and then the horses can't go out on anything but pavement for the next week! This was Mia's hoof from who know when:








​
It is frustrating. One wants to do right by their horses, but what is "right"?

I went for a jog today. Coming back, I saw Bandit racing around the corral. He does that sometimes barefoot as well. He seemed to be trying to get Trooper to play, and Trooper wanted none of it. I hope to get a ride in tomorrow before the winds pick up.

The farrier said if I changed my mind to just give him a call and he'd swing by to remove the shoes. I'm going to need to give it a few weeks to make an honest test, though.


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## waresbear

Like I said, I wish I could come out and trim your horses. But some horses accommodate for improper balanced hooves and do fine, some are off, lame, just can't tolerate it. Your farrier ignored the bars and left the heel underrun, but that horse has a good hoof, short toes, wide frog, he's learned to accommodate for the imbalance, he'll be fine. The shoeing, from what I can see is decent, used forward three nails, supported the heel, can't see the rest.


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## bsms

I worry a lot more about Bandit than the others. Trooper's hooves have tended to crack at times, but he only gets tender if you RUN him across the rocks - which my daughter has finally quit doing! The farrier today mentioned his hooves don't have any small cracks like they often have.

Cowboy...well, everyone who has seen his hooves say they are great. I'll try to get pictures because no one has ever had a bad word to say about Cowboy's feet.

But Bandit was raced long miles with a guy who is easily 50-60 lbs heavier than me. I told the farrier today that his previous owner was as big as the farrier and had raced Bandit in the relay races (pony express races). He looked at me and replied, "As a young horse?"

"Afraid so."

"Well, at least he has gentle use now!", the farrier said. But he arrived in 00 shoes and was shod in size 1 today. And what happened INSIDE the leg, to the bones and knees and all the other stuff that can be damaged...darn it! Bandit didn't deserve it! I could easily see him turning arthritic a few years from now with nothing I can do to stop it. And if he sometimes gets frustrated by me, he is still a darn good horse. It would be horrible to have something go wrong in his legs or feet, but I can't be sure the damage hasn't already been done. It gets scary.

I do wish you could come down and ride with me and show me about hooves, waresbear. You could see what wimpy riding I generally do, but it IS fun just to ride the washes and squeeze between the cactus - even within a mile or so of here! I've avoided learning about horse feet, but I guess it is time for me to start...


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## waresbear

Well, if you came here, I could hook you up with a farrier buddy of mine. She gives farrier clinics where you get to trim cadaver hooves, she makes sure everyone understands what is a balanced hoof. I have training with her for about a year now.


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## gottatrot

@waresbear did a nice trim. I disagree slightly with one thing, the bars don't cause the heel to run under, although they do need to be trimmed and can cause all kinds of problems. The running forward problem usually begins at the toe, and the heel follows.

It looks like the farrier ignores your bars completely, which is common. Sometimes it causes no problems, and sometimes it causes serious problems. Many farriers see the hoof wall as a round rim when actually it curves around and forms the little triangle area of the bars. 

Bandit will be more sound over rough ground with shoes on. Regardless of whether the trim is good or not, the shoes will lift his sole up so he won't feel the rocks and hard matter very much. Shoes make horses more sound unless the farrier does a terrible job. 

It's the long term health of the hoof that is often affected by shoes, and that can be less easy to spot because it happens gradually and the shoe will cover for many issues that would lame the horse barefoot. 
I'm not saying it is wrong to put shoes on or to not shoe Bandit. But I believe if a person puts shoes on horses, they need to be more aware and watchful for problems that may develop over time.
It can be legitimate to shoe for part of a year because protection is needed and you don't want to boot. It's less ideal, but a choice many people make. 

What I don't like about the shod pictures is that it's not clear where the hoof breakover is supposed to be. A knowledgeable farrier will peel back the tip of the frog and find out where it attaches to the sole. From the barefoot pic, the frog looks too close to the end of the sole. That either means someone has trimmed the toe back too far, or the frog is stretched forward. More often the frog is stretched.
The center of the toe of the shoe should be 1 to 1 1/4 inches in front of the actual tip of the frog, on a horse Bandit's size. 

It's good you're not getting charged much for the shoes...but it's not a great job, I'm afraid. It looks like the shoes' edges are not flush with the outer hoof wall edges, which puts them at danger for being ripped off if the horse steps on those edges. The ends of the right front do not match up evenly with each other, and stick out past the frog! Again, any overtracking and Bandit can step on those ends and rip the shoe off. A farrier needs to match the size of the shoe exactly to the hoof, and if either hoof or shoe is a mm oversize, the wall or shoe needs to be rasped to make the edges flush. Good farriers I've had will heat the shoe and hammer it narrower or wider to adjust it slightly to fit the shape of the hoof. The shoes just out of the box often don't fit the horse perfectly.

The bars will probably wear off some if you ride over abrasive enough surfaces, even with a shoe on. But left laid over the way they are, they can trap small gravel which can wear into the sole under the bar, which can cause bruising or abscessing. I've seen many horses that the farriers shoe without trimming the bars, and I've dealt with some of the abscess under the bars for people. 

On hard surfaces like yours, taking out sole will lame a horse. But a trimmer should know how to remove bars which are hard hoof wall and press into the sole versus taking out sole which is there to protect the hoof. 
Going six weeks instead of eight is a good move.

I'm working more on the information on hooves I'm posting on my pages, so if you ever get time to read a bit it could be helpful to learn how to assess your own hooves.


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## gottatrot

There was mention of how thick you estimated Bandit's sole, and also that your hooves did not have concavity.
Just wanted to clarify how you were estimating sole thickness, and how you were checking for concavity.

As Ramey mentions in this post, the depth of the collateral grooves in the back of the hoof can vary and not relate to the sole thickness under the coffin bone where it is critical.
This image shows how to measure the sole depth from just behind the apex of the frog to the top of the sole ridge. You measure to the bottom of the rasp.








Of course if there is a shoe on or the hoof wall has not been trimmed, you can't measure this way. 1/2 to 5/8ths inch is ideal.
Reading Sole Thickness
Sole depth in that part of the hoof is synonymous with concavity. That gap under the file seen in the photo is the concavity of the hoof. Concavity in any other area is irrelevant (and possibly unhealthy). A flat sole means there is no depth to that part of the hoof.
This hoof has no concavity:


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## bsms

gottatrot said:


> ...This image shows how to measure the sole depth from just behind the apex of the frog to the top of the sole ridge. You measure to the bottom of the rasp.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course if there is a shoe on or the hoof wall has not been trimmed, you can't measure this way. 1/2 to 5/8ths inch is ideal.
> Reading Sole Thickness
> Sole depth in that part of the hoof is synonymous with concavity. That gap under the file seen in the photo is the concavity of the hoof. Concavity in any other area is irrelevant (and possibly unhealthy). A flat sole means there is no depth to that part of the hoof.
> This hoof has no concavity:


Cowboy may make a liar out of me when I look at his feet later this morning. I don't do his feet very often. But Mia, Lilly, Trooper and Bandit have never had can concavity with their feet, unless it is cut in - and that lames them. Based on your photo, none of them would have any sole depth.

Frog material stretches forward and falls off. It also tends to stretch sideways. I can't be certain none of the farriers we've used have ever trimmed the bars, but I don't remember seeing it done. Enough travel on pavement will wear it smooth, and the rocks will chop it up and remove parts at times. I had never heard of trimming the bars until yesterday. They will cut off some near the rear, but the part that extends along the frog is generally left there.

Cowboy is a desert mustang. The farriers we've used rarely do more than rasp his feet slightly. If he was wild, he'd probably COULD go without trimming and without harm.

Bandit's rear feet are never a problem. He has longer, pointed toes in the rear. The farrier says he'd like them to be less pointed, but that just seems to be what his feet want - and he shows no problems on the rear. Maybe because he carries less weight back there, of course.

When I took up riding, one of my huge frustrations was with the conflicting advice I'd get. My toes should be straight ahead. Or 30 degrees to the side. Legs should be nearly straight. Or bent. Heels should be under my hip. Or not. I should be "on my pockets". Or not. I should only ride bitless. Or only use a snaffle. One guy, in his 80s who raised and trained horses for 50 years (good ones, I'm told) told me to throw away my snaffles - that all horses should be ridden in a low port curb bit. Period.

But with riding, I could go try different things and see what worked. Or WHY it worked for X but not for Y.

With humans, I've known very good athletes who were moving like old men by 40 because of wear and tear inside their bodies - while feeling fine and being very good athletes when young! It can take 20-30 years for premature and excessive or incorrect wear on the body to reveal itself. So experimenting with one's body is tough for a human, let alone what we do TO a horse!

It amazes me that over hundreds of years of riding, we cannot say, "Hooves need to be like this in Kentucky, like this in England, like this in Egypt and like this in Arizona." We humans have spent 2000+ years with horses, and we still don't know much!

I appreciate the advice I've received. I'm not getting ****y, or 'have some attitude' over that!

I'm just incredibly frustrated when the horse depends on me to get it right, but I can't say what "right" is. My farrier has 30 years of experience with uncounted horses, and training - so if he doesn't know, then how am I going to figure it out? It seems I need to hope for what @waresbear wrote:



> But some horses accommodate for improper balanced hooves and do fine...


I almost wonder if the best I can do is continue letting the horse decide what they can do in terms of ground, distance, speed, etc - and hope THEY know their limits.

Signing off my rant as "Frustrated in Arizona"...


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## bsms

To put it another way:

I can't get doctors to agree on if it is OK for me to eat bacon and drink coffee. Why should I expect anything about horses to be any easier?


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## egrogan

I'm with you @*bsms* . I look at some of these pictures and wonder how Isabel is even still standing because her feet look nothing like what's shown in the "good" pictures. But then every farrier- whether "traditional" or "barefoot trimmer"- that's ever looked at her says they wish every horse had feet like hers. When I ask why her bars look like the pictures of "overgrown" and her frog is small and narrow, they say not to worry about it, her feet are great. But then BO points out some "uneven wearing" that for the life of me I truly do not see at all and "can't believe no farrier ever told me to watch for that." 

I can admit when I don't know something. But I can't seem to educate myself because I just don't see the difference between good and bad. Then I'm in a downward spiral of questioning whether I should even own a horse so I sort of make myself stop. Sigh.


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## bsms

egrogan said:


> ...I can admit when I don't know something. But I can't seem to educate myself because I just don't see the difference between good and bad. Then I'm in a downward spiral of questioning whether I should even own a horse so I sort of make myself stop. Sigh.


I find myself looking at pictures of "good" and thinking, "I've never seen a horse hoof like THAT before!"

Bandit's feet today:




























I like his rear feet better than his front.

For today, the wind was picking up & I told my DIL I wanted to stick to the ATV trails mostly to see how Bandit did. I walked him the 1/4 mile of pavement to the desert. Garbage pickup was delayed due to the holiday, so lots of overloaded trash cans, jaws gaping and plastic carcasses still sticking out. I figured Bandit would be a bundle of nerves and I didn't want to try any spooks with shoes on pavement today.

So I led him and he stayed pretty calm. Even paused to sniff one of the monsters. Mounted up when we got to the desert.

He stumbled a little with an "OW!" at the very beginning, but quickly adjusted. I took us on the rockiest ATV trails within an hour's ride of the house, and that initial "OW!" was also the last one. He didn't slap his front feet down like he did in June 2015. He showed care...but going where we went today, I would have expected 8-10 flinching "ow!"s and a couple of stumbles. But after the first one...none. 

After a little bit, he started walking a little faster on the ATV trails, although still slowing for the rockier spots. At the rockiest spots, I'd give him a bump of the reins and say, "_Easy! Pick your way_..." - and he did. Halfway thru the ride, my DIL commented on how calm he was staying, even though the winds were gusting. And he was.

The only downside was when I took him down a very short (4') but steep and bare spot I used to teach him to carefully take baby steps down. I think the slickness of the shoes made it harder for him there, and he rushed the last foot. So if we are facing a steep spot that might be slippery, I probably need to dismount. He seems to find that tougher.

But he had no trouble with deep sand, and he started acting and feeling noticeably more relaxed on the ATV trails. Visible even to my DIL. I could feel it in my butt, even with my 30 lb western saddle.

Of course, there may be more drawbacks or he might have other problems as we gain more experience. I definitely need to take my "equestrian knife" with me - I can see how a hoof pick might be needed more often. But the first trail ride went much better than I was expecting!










PS - Cowboy has been getting a little fussy about stopping with my 100 lb DIL, so I switched him to a Billy Allen curb. My DIL said he rode MUCH easier - easy enough that she started dropping back and then practicing her trotting behind us. She was confident he would slow when asked. Said it just took one quick bump and he'd slow, unlike when he'd try fighting her in the snaffle.


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## waresbear

The bars can and do push the heel forward, seen it happen.


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## gottatrot

Bandit's hooves look pretty good from the side, and I doubt there is no concavity in your horses' hooves. You wouldn't be riding them around where you live without noticing they had thin soles. They'd be limping a lot. 

In the photo of Bandit's hind hoof, the frog does not look like it's sitting on top of the sole at the tip, it's buried in there and the picture of Mia's hoof shows concavity also. 

I rode horses for many years while knowing nothing about their hooves. We always did OK, and it's mostly important to know the very bad things rather than striving for perfection. That is why we have farriers to keep the hooves near some form of normal. However, I've seen quite a few farriers that do things like carve out sole. Ramey said he was taught to trim sole until he saw small drops of blood. So any knowledge we can have about whether a trimmer is doing a good job or a poor one will help.

It's true that there is conflicting advice, but there are good sources and bad sources. For me, knowing normal anatomy and how the hoof grows can help separate out the good information from the bad. There is a range of healthy, and that is the same no matter where horses live. Eating bacon and drinking coffee will generally be within a range of healthy, unless you're eating pounds of bacon and getting ulcers from too much coffee. Some will strive for "perfection" but that's within an unknown range. No one knows what perfect is, whether it relates to a diet or to a horse hoof. But we can all avoid extremes that are obviously unhealthy.

For example, I can't know if learning that Amore's hind toes were too long and pointy before she was age 20 might have saved her from arthritis. What I can know is that trimming her club hoof differently than all the farriers I'd had trim her over the years helped her feel much better, evidenced by how easily she began to pick up leads on that side and how she no longer had difficulty turning to the left.
Her hind hooves were in an OK range, just could have been better. The club hoof was outside of healthy, and I wish I'd known about it sooner.








So don't just accept what farriers say...even one piece of information can help.


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## bsms

Got in about a 2 hour ride this morning. My DIL volunteered to ride with me, so my youngest got to watch the grandkids. 

Went out on to state land, where Bandit has only been ridden once before. The trail there DID get rocky enough that he had a few problems, even with shoes. And the cactus was too dense to go off-trail. But he still acted less tender on that section than he used to act on good sections of ATV trails. He had one small stumble all day on a section that was all jagged rock. No flinching. He did start to understand that when I said, "_Easy, boy. We've got all day._" that it meant be cautious. Shoes don't make him invincible.






But they helped. 

Went Australian today. If I keep it up, I may need to buy some good chaps. An inch of leather on an English stirrup doesn't offer much protection from cactus. But Bandit's back has filled out. His shoulders are bigger. And the Aussie saddle now fits him similar to Mia. I've ordered a wool felt Australian saddle shaped pad, 1/2" thick. Along with a Wintec 3/8" thick closed cell foam pad, it might make a good option.

Still, it might be a sight that would turn a few heads. An old guy wearing a Tilley hat, T-shirt and heavy chaps in an English-looking saddle with Mickey Mouse ears on the front.


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## bsms

On a thread posted by @MyTyPony ( http://www.horseforum.com/dressage/head-too-low-achieving-roundness-761170/ ), this comment was made:



tinyliny said:


> ...yes, drive her forward when she barges down on the rein, or, if she curls up behind the bit. but, if you use the reins to sort of 'pop' her a bit in the mouth to say, "Hey!, lift your head!" , do it with one rein much more than the other.
> 
> really, all snaffle work should be done with one rein being much more dominant than the other. never with both reins equal.





tinyliny said:


> yes. I agree. but, very likely one rein is 'speaking' at a time.
> or, at least the hrose is 'listening to' one rein at a time. and when both reins are pulled hard, the horse's likely reaction will be to just push back, freeze , tighten up. dialogue over.


The thread is in the dressage sub-forum, and my goals and purposes are too remote to dressage for it to be of any value for me to discuss things there. Heck, I view the reins as the communication line of last resort, rather than a constant. 

However...

In some situations, I agree that a snaffle is best used side to side. For example, if slowing a strong horse in a snaffle, it is often more effective to wiggle the bit side-to-side rather than pull back on both reins because A) a steady pull back allows the horse to brace, and B) if the horse has the bit in his teeth, then the side to side motion may break it free.

And it may be that for DRESSAGE, or for English riding where constant contact is desired, then a side to side motion - which is what using one rein stronger than the other creates - is needed. Don't ride that way normally, so don't know.

However, I often ride a snaffle one-handed. If neck reining, as I was taught by the Cavalry manual, then it would create uneven pressure on the bit as well, although one handed.

However, for a stop, I often do light bumps straight back - the dreaded Two Rein Stop. As I explained it to my DIL the other day, you '_annoy the horse into stopping_' - just keep a bump-bump-bump going, not too hard, until the horse slows. Then stop the bumps, but start them up again if further slowing is needed. Before long, a lot of horses will slow and stop based on rotating your wrist to generate the 'bump'.

Now, the question raised on the thread was:



MyTyPony said:


> ...Anyways, she'll go round in trot but then she'll shove her head down pulling at my hands as if she thinks I want her to stretch or something?!
> 
> Does anyone have any ideas as to how I can keep her head and neck up more and stop her pulling her head down?...


Bandit and Mia would both do that. I think it is often quite different from 'rounding' and from 'seeking contact', particularly since I've had them both do it bitless. So as a non-dressage rider, here is my theory on what I've seen with Mia and Bandit:

First, how does the horse's back REALLY work?

As a lever.








​ 
The spring in the front are the muscles of the thoracic sling, which can lift the front of a horse higher. They cannot ROUND the back. Nothing can, really. But they can lift the front. 

I ride Bandit and Mia at around 25% of their body weight, and I notice the behavior MyTyPony discusses most frequently when they are tired. My THEORY is the motion forward and down represents the horse trying to stretch and relax the muscles of the thoracic sling - releasing tension from the spring in the diagram.

It is tiring enough to move a rider forward. If you need to LIFT the rider, and the rider weighs 25% of your weight, that is a lot more work to do. And a horse who isn't used to it will tire. And do what I do with tired muscles - stretch them.

What has worked well with Mia and Bandit - both ridden without constant contact, and thus it may not apply to dressage - is to ask them to keep the work up a little longer. How? By urging forward, but then using my one hand to lift the reins, bring the head up and back some. Both reins, an even pull up and back. As the head lifts, ease pressure on the reins and urge the horse's body to move underneath its head. Do that for a minute. Maybe two.

Then quit. Let the horse stretch out however he or she wants, walking. "_Relax. You've earned it!_" Find something else to do for 5 minutes, then maybe ask for another good effort. For a minute. Then End of Lesson.

When my back gets tired doing pull-ups, trying to do more risks injury and destroys my balance. Not to mention discourages me when I fail.

If it comes near the end of a trail ride, I may dismount and walk my horse home. If we are too far away, then dismount, walk, and try to find a little grass somewhere in the desert so my horse can chill and eat, head down, with a loose saddle and no rider.

As I get back into running and doing pull-ups, I limit myself. I get too discouraged if I spend the night to sore to sleep. I mentioned on yet another thread that much horse misbehavior isn't the horse disrespecting us, but rooted in our disrespect for the horse. If my horse is getting tired and sore, my asking for still more is going to discourage him. It might "_...culminate in the grand catastrophe of restiveness..._"

If we understand the horse is an animal and not a machine, and if we value his mind as much as his body, and his willing spirit maybe even MORE, then our respect for his efforts requires us to sometimes ask for a LITTLE more, then quit. With lots of praise for how hard he has worked for us.

I think we too often discount a horse's fear. And discount his weariness at hauling our butts. And in Bandit's case, I'm thinking I've discounted how sore his feet sometimes got on our trails. And then we blame the horse for not "respecting us", when we first failed to show respect to the horse!

OK. Rant off. At least in the riding I do, an even pull using one hand on the reins works fine. Of course, I also don't worry about a horse being 'straight' while turning. My goal is for my horse to move under me the way he moves without me. I view myself as a hindrance to be removed from the equation, not a teacher to explain how my incredibly graceful and agile horse could move even better. Because I haven't seen any horses move more athletically, more balanced and more powerfully under a rider than without.

Certainly someone like myself, who also wants to simplify his riding, is best off freeing up my horses movement rather than correcting it...because I've seen him move without me! If I could restore that, I'd be a genius.


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## bsms

BTW - Tried an Australian saddle shaped saddle pad under my Australian saddle today. Bad, bad idea!

First, the pad was too slick. It left my horse encased in wool felt. A few thousand ants had invaded my arena yesterday, so I was trying it out on our trails. Rocks and cactus all around, and I felt like the bottom of my saddle was covered in ball bearings. Or grease. I had tightened it until Bandit protested, and it still slipped around.

Also very bad, I couldn't give leg cues with my calves. My calves now had an inch of wool felt between them and my horse. He may be able to feel a fly on his back, but I'm not sure he can feel a fly land on his back when there is an inch of wool between them! I was reduced to using my heels. Kick instead of squeeze. 

That wasn't helping, and on a solo trip out into the desert - well, it wasn't 15 minutes before I dismounted from my increasing nervous and worried horse and walked him all the way home. He was getting upset. Justifiably, IMHO. And I was in a saddle that felt like it was going to roll. That would suck in a sandy arena. Alone, and surrounded by rocks?

I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer. I may be, as my wife has claimed, a spoon in the knife drawer! But even this SPOON figured out bad things were on the way!

The pad is being returned. I'll never try THAT again!

BTW - all my saddles tilt forward when Bandit is leaning down to eat...but not THAT much. Can't say I noticed just how far it went until I saw the picture - and that is with the front half of a Wintec foam pad under it:










This arrangement works MUCH better:


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> I ride Bandit and Mia at around 25% of their body weight, and I notice the behavior MyTyPony discusses most frequently when they are tired. My THEORY is the motion forward and down represents the horse trying to stretch and relax the muscles of the thoracic sling - releasing tension from the spring in the diagram.
> 
> It is tiring enough to move a rider forward. If you need to LIFT the rider, and the rider weighs 25% of your weight, that is a lot more work to do. And a horse who isn't used to it will tire. And do what I do with tired muscles - stretch them.


Some horses learn that if they stretch their neck out far, it makes it more difficult for the rider to pull on the reins. For example, I've ridden several horses that would stretch their neck out quickly, and as the rider is adjusting the reins, put on a burst of speed while they have the advantage of leverage. Halla knows how to do this. 

I don't think that's what is being described in the thread, or by you. I agree the stretching down is often from muscle fatigue. In my past, I've used rein pressure or side reins, and worked a horse until their neck muscles grew too tired and they finally drooped their neck over the way I wanted them to. With a lunge whip or leg pressure, I'd drive them forward to supposedly achieve the drive from the rear, and the proper "collection" or "engagement." This is common and popular.

From what I've seen in horses displaying to each other when excited, holding the neck up in an arch is a fast twitch muscle/anaerobic activity. It involves holding the muscles in contraction, and horses on their own do it for short periods of time. 








We think it looks pretty, or feel somehow it is related to them using their muscles properly, and so try to get horses to do it for long periods of time. This is very fatiguing, like lifting heavy weights or sprinting. You can get more endurance for the activity over time, but will never be able to sustain it as long as aerobic exercise, and dressage horses that train regularly at this have large, weight lifter type muscles developed in their necks and shoulders. 








I feel really bad about all the times I basically forced a horse to "lift weights" with their necks until they were too sore to keep muscle tension in their neck anymore. It's pretty common to make a horse hold this position for fifteen or thirty minutes without any slow build up training, adding a couple minutes at a time.

When I've used a thick wool felt pad under a saddle that fit with a thinner pad, I've had the same experience. The saddle wanted to slide and felt super slick underneath.


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## bsms

I've use a 1" Diamond endurance pad under the Aussie saddle. It worked fine. Maybe the wool felt is better quality. Maybe it ends far enough up the sides that the saddle has some grip. Maybe it allows the girth to fit more closely. Not sure which, but that slick pad felt scary.

I think it scared Bandit too. 

And having effectively no leg, only heels, bothered us both. Even if I don't consciously cue him with leg, my moving my leg based on what I anticipate undoubtedly communicates my expectations to him. With an inch of wool felt between my leg and him...the communication was gone.

When I first was riding Mia in a bit, I'd try to hold her back. That constant pressure on her mouth resulted in her seeking relief by jerking her face forward and down, then bringing it up to enjoy relief I didn't give her. She also learned to 'get the bit in her teeth', and stretch her nose out and let me pull as much as I wanted. She no longer cared.

It was that bad training - errors on my part - that I needed a curb bit to correct.

When Bandit gets faster than a medium trot, he needs some contact. Not a lot, and it can be one-handed contact. But he considers slack in the reins at a canter to be either permission or direction to go as fast as he can.

In a way, the neck reining I learned is counter-intuitive. If you move the reins up and over to the right, the left rein pushes on the neck toward the right, but the left side of the snaffle gets pulled back - which is normally a left turn cue, not right. But I almost never pull back on the left rein for a turn, but instead use an opening rein to the left.

In any case, Bandit quickly figured out that the totality of the cue and responds to it in context. Even if scared, he usually honors that sort of highly directive neck rein. That is good because when he is scared, I like to hold on to the horn with one hand. That helps keep my shoulders centered above his back during a spin or sideways movement, and if my hips and shoulders stay centered, then I stay on. I seem to value staying on more than a lot of folks. Maybe it is my age...


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## bsms

Only got one picture today, with Bandit standing still - against his will, obviously, but he tolerated it for about 5 seconds. Just long enough for me to grab a picture, then put my camera away on the go (as usual, click on the picture to enlarge):








​
The housing area I live in is visible on the horizon. We're less than a mile away. We angled right from here, couldn't find a way thru, so turned left and went parallel to the vegetation until we found a spot to press through. Bandit used to resist pushing thru brush but is quite good about it now. 

Before the picture, we had climbed out at a spot Bandit found acceptable, but my daughter protested, "_Trooper is following Bandit, but he says to tell you you're a jerk for expecting him to push thru all this stuff!_" But he DID follow.

Still, my daughter dismounted before we got to the spot where we went through the line of vegetation ahead of us. I told her that was fine - that she should never worry about dismounting and leading versus riding! But Bandit looked at where I was asking him to go and decided it was doable, so we did. It wasn't really that thick except for horses used to the open ground of deserts. Still, it was nice to see Bandit accept responsibility and press on.

I don't think we ever even trotted today. I'm reminded of a passage I read a while back, from the 1880s, saying folks in southern Arizona could see a landmark 50 miles away. But if they pushed their pony faster, he'd give out...so Arizonans got used to squinting patiently at the distance while their pony covered the ground slowly and carefully.

Bandit was super relaxed today. He kept his eyes open, but he just FELT like a horse totally comfortable with what we were doing. I've probably ruined him from ever being a race horse again. I think he is happier just picking his way while I...*squint*.

But I'll also admit riding a horse thru all the twists and turns, and sometimes needing to back out, and going across gullies and up and down - maybe I'm getting old, but it is more work that I'd have guessed. I'm sure as heck not just picking my nose and admiring the scenery! It is totally unlike a stroll thru a neighborhood.

But I love it when I point Bandit somewhere, and I can feel him processing the route ahead, and then accepting responsibility for it! "_So...whadda ya think?_" Processing. Processing. "_I've got it. Chill._" And I can relax, because when Bandit accepts it, I don't have to worry about him quitting, spooking, acting stupid, etc.

I'll get some pictures of his feet in another week or so. I think Bandit approves of his shoes. I also am noticing the "bars" are getting more vertical and not pulled across the foot. If and when he does return to barefoot for a while, I think I will trim the bars myself. Maybe it is an optical illusion, but I could imagine the bars flattening across the foot and pulling the heels forward. In any case, I don't think it would harm anything to try trimming the bars. I think I'll get some nippers and try it on Trooper.


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## bsms

A short ride this morning. My DIL needed to get back in time to take the granddaughter to have some teeth pulled.

My DIL (5'0", 105 lbs) used my 16.5" saddle on Cowboy. She liked it except "_I can't feel anything behind me!_" I pointed out I'm 65 lbs heavier and have never felt the cantle of that saddle, either. But she liked it, and it actually fits Cowboy well. The skirts are only 25" long, which helps. And Cowboy & Bandit both use the same tree (semi-QH bars) that Mia used.

So I went Australian today. After 3 years of western riding, and largely because Bandit is so much more NORMAL than Mia, I find I tend to relax more and SIT more than I did riding Australian with Mia. All three horses did well today. There was ONE spot coming back where someone had placed an orange traffic control sign next to the ATV trail. We detoured through the desert going out. Coming back, Bandit didn't seem to need the detour...but then we trotted past.

And my DIL shouted out, "_Hey Dad! Bandit was just like a show horse! He trotted sideways with his neck curving, just like those horses in the videos! How did you teach him that?_"

So I had to admit it wasn't something I taught him: 

"_He just gets in touch with his inner Arabian, and then we trot south while he faces west. But he kept moving on by, and my agreement with him is the direction he faces when trotting is HIS choice, provided we keep moving down the trail._" And yeah, I thought of @*gottatrot* and was glad we weren't galloping, at least! :mrgreen:

I rode him on pavement with his shoes on for the first time today. He was pretty relaxed the whole ride...most of the whole ride...and did fine in the neighborhood. For the final couple hundred yards, my youngest decided to trot Trooper. That meant Cowboy HAD to trot because he does NOT like Trooper passing him. So of course, Bandit trotted, in his shoes, along the pavement. I started to hold him back, then decided he needs to be trusted...so "CLIP CLOP! CLIP CLOP! CLIP CLOP!" down the road we went, up hill to our property and little arena. Cantered two laps around the arena and called it quits.

Bandit isn't Cowboy's level of sensible yet, but he's getting there. He broke into a trot several times today on his own. I tend to think that is a good thing. I still worry about it turning into something uncontrolled. Lots of deep seated memories of Mia. Some very good, but some very bad. I'm learning to trust Bandit, though. He just doesn't lose his mind. He might not always AGREE with me, but he never loses his mind!

I used the front half of a Wintec foam pad under the front of the saddle. At the end, there was a dry spot perfectly matching where the Wintec was, although Bandit showed no signs of complaint. I think the Aussie saddle needs the front raised to feel balanced to me, but don't know if that is causing more pressure to the front, or if it is because I ride more forward when using the Australian saddle.

Don't know if it is true, but I've read that 'dry spots' are OK if they are large - and these were essentially the size of the front half of the saddle. And the rest had just started to sweat, so it may not be a big distinction. I guess I'll have to try it without the foam. Bandit has filled out a lot in the last couple of years. And I have a hunch I'll have to get my DIL's permission to use "my saddle" again. She said Cowboy felt great to ride with it - "_very stable and very roomy_" - so it may not be "my saddle" any longer!


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## knightrider

The July issue of Equus is out and full of intriguing articles. I tried to find this article on-line so I could share it, but I can't find it on-line. It is called "The Power of Indirect Training" and bsms, you would so resonate with the author, Janet L. Jones. She pretty much says everything you've been trying to tell everybody, but she has a PhD in cognitive science, the study of the human mind and brain. It seems that she knows a lot about horse minds and brains as well.
Like our "Bullock Cart Story" she espouses letting horses take their time, think about challenges, and discuss them with their riders.
I will quote a few paragraphs from a very fascinating article, but every paragraph in this article is worth reading. [If you are thinking that] "Settling would be 'letting him get away with it'. Some readers have been thinking that throughout this article, so let's pause to unpack the idiom. What exactly are we letting the horse get away with? Taking time to observe? Mastering natural fear? Learning how to perform a task? Developing trust? Yes! These qualities are exactly what the best trainers are trying to teach.

"Direct training often biases human commands over a horse's fear. The horse must do as we ask. Why? Because we asked. I don't know about you, but every time I demand behavior 'because I said so,' the results stink. It doesn't work on anybody--children, teenagers, adults or horses. On the rare occasion that this attitude appears to solve a problem, it creates many new ones.

"I am not suggesting that the direct method be discarded. There are times when a horse must learn to obey. Period. Horses need to be brought up short when they mow you down at the stall door, head for the barn at a dead run or bite to get attention or treats. . . . 

"Now, here's the hard part: Sit down and think. Why is my horse evading this task? Is he sound and pain-free? What exactly is he afraid of? How does he perceive the situation? How can I break the task down into small steps that will be easier for him? Put yourself in your horse's position and imagine how you would feel if you were forced to approach something that scares you. . . 

"Small goals are best for horses--we're not trying to cure cancer here. Fear is every teacher's enemy, so your plan must reduce the horse's fear one small step at a time. The most common error with indirect training is making the steps too large.

"Develop your plan on an equine time frame. Step 3 begins only when the horse has mastered step 2, and we have no way of knowing how long that will take. If you ask the horse for too much one day, go back to the previous step. Give him a chance to succeed at something he has already learned. Remind yourself to slow down.

"Revise your plan freely, but not during a moment of equine resistance. Remember the often-repeated definition of insanity: 'Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.' Note your horse's responses to your efforts, and change your steps as needed after you've had a chance to reconsider them. If you listen well, your horse will tell you what you need to know."

These ideas segue with Gottatrot's reminder that well-known trainers have to train horses in a hurry, on a timeline. We amateurs do not. I have a lifetime to get my horses trained, and slower is better.


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## bsms

Tried the Aussie saddle today both with and without a full-sized Wintec pad:








​ 
I didn't notice it at the time, but look at how the stirrup strap is angled forward. Without something extra under the front end (and front end ONLY), the saddle tilts down. It isn't just this photo. I took a half-dozen pictures while riding, blindly & at arms length, and all of them showed the same thing - me sliding forward in the saddle. Same thing happened without any Wintec pad. You can see where the stirrup strap normally rubs.

Bandit behaved nicely. He was a little squirrelly but that could just be how he acts when we spend 30+ minutes in the arena. Of course, it could also have been throwing him off. But he gave me a good faith effort, W/T/C. At end of ride, he felt free to use me as a rubbing post. People tell me that is wrong, but I did it every ride with Mia and every one with Bandit. I hold my arm up and let him decide where his face needs rubbing, and how long. Dropping the bit is the signal that it is time for face rubs to begin, and Bandit usually calls it quits after 30 seconds.

But if I go Aussie, I'll return to using the front half of a Wintec pad to hold the front up. I'd like to try English, but don't know what sort of saddle to try - and worry about what I would do if it needed "reflocking". Not sure anyone local does that sort of thing. I like the feel of an English saddle, but western has a lot more local support...


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## bsms

@knightrider: Can't find the referenced article, but this one is good reading too:

https://equusmagazine.com/riding/visual-discrepancies-31223

And:

"Because his eyes are on the sides of his head, he has a 350-degree view, almost four times greater than the range we see. Think of how dependent we are on sight, how important it is to us. Now imagine we had four times that much vision to process every second of the day. We’d be edgy, too!...

...Why? First, from the front, human eyes can see an object clearly, but a horse’s wide-set eyes cannot. All Hawkeye knows is that her rider is upset, forcing her forward to a place that she considers threatening. Second, as she reluctantly approaches, the light-snake vanishes from Hawkeye’s line of sight, which of course makes it all the more frightening. Third, standing still concentrates the horse’s fear rather than alleviating it. Fourth, when Hawkeye cocks her head and pivots to the side for a better view, her rider pulls on one rein and presses with the opposite leg, pushing her back to a stance where equine vision is worst...

...Instead, remain mounted and distract her with a task that moves her away from the threat. Yes, this feels like “letting her get away with it,” but it’s only one step of a larger process. Try riding to a distance the horse considers safe, with the object in view. Trot back and forth in a way that places the object most frequently at the horse’s side. Focus on pace, relaxation and inward bend; ignore whatever scares her. When Hawkeye is calm, quietly enlarge the loops, maintaining any distance that allows her to remain tranquil...."

https://equusmagazine.com/riding/eye-eye-31022

"Usually we define “work” as physical labor. But mental work is taxing, too, especially for a horse. We know what we expect, but the horse doesn’t. He has to decipher our cues, interpret our demands, ignore his own needs and acquiesce, and he has to do all that with a brain that was designed to run away."

https://equusmagazine.com/behavior/time-15902

The last is an argument, IMHO, for trying to ride a horse as simply as possible. I was taught "Seat, leg, reins if needed" for turns, but if "reins right = go right" works, then maybe that is more relaxing to a horse than seat, leg, rein if needed?

The articles on eyesight in horses should be required reading for every new rider. Same with how horses see details versus general categories. I joke about Bandit memorizing our neighborhood and reacting when anyone parks their car in the wrong place...but it isn't a joke. 

Then we get upset because they express confusion or uncertainty. Bad horse! Or is it, "Stupid rider!"?


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## bsms

Pasting this in from another thread, but it reflects my beliefs about training horses:



bsms said:


> ..."My notion is that the trainability of horses is mostly due to their psychological make up of being a highly sociable animal." - @Hondo
> 
> I almost think the opposite. While horses can like other horses, and obviously feel comfortable in a herd structure, their social structure doesn't strike me as much fun. I think a big part of why Bandit likes me is because I like him...and the other horses do not. I make it clear I enjoy being with Bandit and doing things with him as a team - something other horses do not!
> 
> I also liked Mia. While the other horses accepted Mia as Leader, she was aloof and nearly unapproachable by the other horses. I think she liked my company because I gave her relief from the role of Great Leader. I took some of that burden away, allowing her to relax in a way she never did around other horses.
> 
> Watching my three horses, Bandit is valued for his tail. The other two admit Bandit is excellent at swishing flies from their faces. They also accept he is smarter than they are, and they go to him and expect him to make decisions when things are scary. But apart from that...they don't like him. It won't bother them in the least if he is left outside the shelter in a hail storm - even when there was ample room. He had to FIGHT to get them to accept his presence.
> 
> *I can always offer two things to Bandit that he lacks: Very good judgment, and delight in his company.* The first provides safety and the chance to relax while the second is something he has come to enjoy. I can offer him a type of acceptance and interaction he never gets with other horses.
> 
> I've come to believe what the cavalry officer wrote in the 1860s: "_...There is another thing to be considered with regard to the horse's character - it loves to exercise its powers, and it possesses a great spirit of emulation; it likes variety of scene and amusement; and under a rider that understands how to indulge it in all this without overtaxing its powers, will work willingly to the last gasp, which is what entitles it to the name of a noble and generous animal..._"
> 
> I've been told horses are lazy. My experience is that horses are lazy when they see no purpose, but can work very hard when they see a reason. Visiting a ranch last June, we moved the sheep up 26 miles of paved road in uncommon heat. My daughter started riding their 'guest horse' a few miles before the pavement, so close to 30 miles that day. The next morning, before sunrise, I mounted the "guest horse' - and he was ready to go. EAGER to go. The sheep were anxious to move. I had to do figure 8s with the horse off to the side because he was too anxious to get started to be held back by the bit.
> 
> That wasn't lazy. That was a ranch horse who understood his work and who obviously wanted to go do it! All he needed was a human to enable him. My daughter riding him the first day in 90 degree heat and with very little water - hot, dry work:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> I believe we have a symbiotic relationship with horses. Mutual benefit. Our corrections, on the whole, are much milder than what another horse would offer. Our judgement is better and our acceptance of the horse much more freely given. They are not zebras or truly wild horses. I think they have been bred to find completeness in man.
> 
> Xenophon writes about horses making us feel like gods. I think we make horses feel like a god. Or we can.
> 
> *Or maybe we make them feel like PARTNERS to the gods.*​


I think when we ride with understanding and in the spirit of teamwork, we enable both horse and rider to transcend ourselves. We joke sometimes about becoming centaurs, but at our best...we do. We become more than we can be by ourselves, but we also ENABLE our horses to exceed their limitations. When we ride right, at our best, and train the horse right, we both become creatures of heroic myth - and we are both vain enough, by nature, to crave that!​


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## horseluvr2524

Yes, it is insanely hard to find any leather worker knowledgeable about english saddles around here! I was terrified of allowing anyone to work on my dressage saddle, because I know that I can't replace the quality of the saddle if it were to be ruined. I managed to find a way around getting the saddle reflocked.

I say 'once you go english, you'll never go back!'. It's somewhat of a joke, as I know that's not true for everyone. Maybe it should be once you go dressage, as I haven't ridden any other kind of english saddle as comfortable as dressage saddles are in general. And every western saddle I ever rode in hurts my rear... but then again, I don't think I've ever ridden in a western saddle of equal value and workmanship as my dressage (originally a $2k saddle).


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## gottatrot

> Bsms: I've been told horses are lazy. My experience is that horses are lazy when they see no purpose, but can work very hard when they see a reason.


That is my experience too. Trying to get a horse to work when they find the work mind-numbing at best or a period of enduring nagging and punishment by the rider is very difficult. My biggest goal is always to see things from the horse's perspective. 

When I was able to imagine what it looked like to the horse when I was doing "practice sessions" in the arena, it changed everything for me. In my mind, we were schooling through movements and practicing. To the horse, she was going along nicely when I'd start pulling on the bit and squeezing with my legs, and bothering, bothering, without doing more than giving a break to rest now and again. Of course I'd reward the proper response with a release of pressure, but I don't think the horse could figure out why I had to keep bothering her so much and I could tell it created some annoyance. 

Practicing something like haunches in is: "Bend like this, now my leg will keep pushing, pushing, pushing, keep moving, keep moving, stay bent, etc." Nag nag. And horses are supposed to enjoy this? No. They endure it. Take the same horse out and let her trot down a trail, and then push her haunches over to avoid hitting your leg on a stump and you will find a more compliant partner. I've decided these things don't need to be taught by drilling in an arena, but rather using the real and tangible world a horse can understand. But of course I don't show anymore...it's just not fun enough for my horses. I tend to think they should enjoy life.

That Equus article was great! Along with the quotes shared by @bsms. Thanks for sharing, Knightrider, I went and read it too (get the magazine). I'll comment a little on my own journal.


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## egrogan

gottatrot said:


> That is my experience too. Trying to get a horse to work when they find the work mind-numbing at best or a period of enduring nagging and punishment by the rider is very difficult...
> When I was able to imagine what it looked like to the horse when I was doing "practice sessions" in the arena, it changed everything for me. In my mind, we were schooling through movements and practicing. To the horse, she was going along nicely when I'd start pulling on the bit and squeezing with my legs, and bothering, bothering, without doing more than giving a break to rest now and again. Of course I'd reward the proper response with a release of pressure, but I don't think the horse could figure out why I had to keep bothering her so much and I could tell it created some annoyance.


This is a very accurate synopsis of why I started hacking Isabel out. She had been a lesson horse (of variable success) for several years when I bought her. She had no trouble communicating that she was very much _done_ with riding circles around the arena. You could literally see her eyes go dull and sad. She still despises the ring, and drags herself around as though she's dying. The tricky part is that in our climate, sometimes there's just no other choice- if we have sleet and ice, and I want to ride, it has to be the indoor. 

I suppose the next question is whether she should _have to_ do something she clearly dislikes just because I want to. I'm comfortable saying yes, occasionally, but I can't really justify why.


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## bsms

There is a balancing act. Bandit understands going out with other horses and leading them safely through dangerous territory. He doesn't see much purpose in going out alone with me, exposing him to some danger and leaving (in his eyes) the herd leaderless. I think he feels important going out with others, but not going out by ourselves. And the arena tends to bore him.

So...what to do? We don't go out solo a lot. He tolerates it, but his heart isn't in it. If he was a work horse with something we NEEDED to do, I think it would be different. I think he'd make a good sheep-herding horse. At least, with me & in summer. Not sure he'd get along well with all sheepherders, many of whom don't care or know much about horses. I suspect he would be like the horse my daughter & I rode visiting the ranch, who seemed to view the sheep as his charges who needed HIM to take care of them.

But that is a hard life for horse and rider. No one enjoys riding when it is 20 deg below zero and the sheep still need a herder!

We don't have snow to worry about, but heat. I don't think it bothers the horse too much to be ridden when it is 100 degrees, and I can accept it, but the paved road going to and from the desert get mighty hot! But if I only ride with others, on cool mornings...well, we won't ride much.

In an ideal world, my horse would always enjoy being ridden. I'm sure he doesn't, and my world isn't going to become ideal, either!

*Or maybe we make them feel like PARTNERS to the gods.*​ 
As a GOAL, that is fine. But it is hyperbole, playing off of Xenophon's comments about horses making US look like mythical heroes. Truth is, my horse doesn't always make me feel heroic or important, and I certainly don't come close to doing that with him!

Maybe it is like jogging. Some days things click and my run feels fantastic. But lots of days...it is just work. Exercise.

Bandit doesn't feel like a partner to the gods each ride. Most of the time, it is just exercise. At least he is getting out, moving his body, getting boogers blown out of his mind and releasing tension that would otherwise build up from living in a corral. If he had 100+ acres, he might not want to be ridden at all. But like most horses, he doesn't have 100+ acres. And his corral-mates don't particularly like him. He needs to get out, even if it often is 95% exercise & work with nothing mythical about it. Or 98%.

Welcome to reality, Bandit! During my military career, I flew in combat. But I also spent many days writing reports, being a training officer, scheduler, wearing chemical warfare gear in exercises, getting yelled at, etc. I was a WSO, not a pilot, but I have fond memories of strapping into an F-4 and:

Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of earth,
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
Sunward I've climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth
Of sun-split clouds, --and done a hundred things
You have not dreamed of --Wheeled and soared and swung
High in the sunlit silence. Hov'ring there
I've chased the shouting wind along, and flung
My eager craft through footless halls of air...
Up, up the long, delirious, burning blue
I've topped the wind-swept heights with easy grace
Where never lark or even eagle flew --
And, while with silent lifting mind I've trod
The high untrespassed sanctity of space,
Put out my hand, and touched the face of God.​
But there were a lot of times I just hauled my butt in at 3AM to work on the schedule, or to get in a flight and then spend the next 8 hours doing drudgery. At its best, riding gives me a chance to once again "_...chase the shouting wind along...Put out my hand, and touch the face of God._" But a lot of times, it is just exercise.

At least I think about making it fun for my horse. And once in a while, things click and we wheel and soar and chase the shouting wind along. 

But we don't live there. That is life.


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## bsms

Cowboy and my DIL, this morning's ride:








​ 
I didn't zoom in a lot because I wanted to emphasize the distance. We don't always ride close together. We were about twice the distance it looks - cropped it because otherwise they almost disappear. Bandit was fussing about waiting this much. Bandit and Cowboy actually make a good riding team. They like knowing the other is in the area, but they feel comfortable with 100 yards or more of separation too. It allows us to spend part of the time 'riding solo' and part of the time riding together.

Cowboy is 13.0 hands. 3 feet 4 inches at the wither. My DIL is 5'0" to the top of her head if she stretches, so they make a good match. But Cowboy is such a little tank! So comfortable with himself and his rider! If any horse was born to ride through the desert, it is Cowboy. I think he is spectacular!

My DIL is nice, too. The cinch got loose and by the end of the ride the cinch was barely touching Cowboy's chest. She thought about stopping to tighten it, then decided to just make sure she stayed centered. She did, and it worked - in part because her horse is utterly sensible. 

The picture below was taken a year ago, with my wife riding. Also zoomed in, but also with Cowboy being Cowboy. Try telling me he doesn't take pleasure in riding across the desert!








​


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## bsms

Adding this here because it deals with how I came to feel safe about riding:



bsms said:


> ...
> 
> 2 - "_So what does asking louder do if he's already heard us? I can't see how it would do anything unless it entered at least some realm of minor discomfort_"
> 
> Depends, and A-T-D can be done differently. In terms of showing, for example, if you are supposed to canter once you reach the letter X, then the demand is a form of punishment. You cannot win a dressage competition or a WP competition if your horse only canters when he is in the mood. You don't win a jumping competition if your horse only jumps the fences and in the order that feel right to him.
> 
> So for deliberate, intentional and knowing disobedience, if you are doing something that requires obedience, you punish. And since horses have been bred for willingness and submission for a few thousand years, that works. Works with humans, too. Ask any military drill instructor.
> 
> When I was in the military, I preferred to get people to do things because it made sense. But not everyone accepts that, and the job still needed to get done. I had people under me at times whose ONLY reason for obeying ANY order was the threat of punishment. Not my choice. Theirs.
> 
> But since the horse understands, and ALWAYS has the option of obeying at the ASK, they don't get afraid.
> 
> ----------------------
> 
> A second form of escalation is more normal to my riding. I don't expect or demand regular obedience. I've come to feel safer and more secure on a horse who can tell me no.
> 
> We then enter negotiation. "Tell" then becomes "This is pretty important to me!" And if he still says "No, I don't want to!", then...it depends. He may have a reason: the trail is rocky, his feet hurt, and cantering here is just too hard. Or he may be genuinely afraid, deeply afraid, that the trash can ahead will kill us both.
> 
> So if "Tell" doesn't work, I will reassess. How important is it? Are there alternatives that will keep BOTH of us happy - moving 50 feet to one side to pass the scary garbage can, or trotting past, or waiting until the trail is smoother for a canter, or check his feet for rocks, etc.
> 
> But sometimes my horse is wrong. Mia was willing, once she got running, to veer off-trail into the cactus to try to pass another horse. I thought we were going to die. Literally. Got her back on the trail and I was NOT gentle or considerate! I used a Pulley Rein stop with her once, very harshly. I'm certain I hurt her mouth. She was galloping and the trail was ending. I didn't want to die.
> 
> Or sometimes...I'll assess that my scared horse isn't really very scared. I've had him refuse to go forward at an Ask & Tell, but then move forward at a Demand - and still be calm enough mentally to realize the scary thing didn't do anything. I've also had HIM respond to MY demand with a demand of his own: "_I've got four feet on the ground and you have zero, and nothing you can do will make me go forward!_" That can be powerful logic, particularly after you go sideways 100 yards.
> 
> That was something Mia taught me: If the horse really, truly CANNOT do something...then I could not MAKE her. Same with Bandit. And when I started riding Bandit, there were lots of things too scary. Over the last two years, very little remains that is just too scary. I've developed a good track record. Hundreds of times in a row, I've said it was safe - and it proved to BE safe. We now have enough trust in my judgment that I can usually get him to go past scary things.
> 
> But that is trail riding, and it is a type of negotiation that not everyone values. That is OK. I like having a conversation with my horse as we ride. I don't mind telling him, "_You don't understand, this is important to me!_" He doesn't mind telling me, "_YOU don't understand, this is CRITICAL to me!_"
> 
> For US, ask-tell-demand is a form of negotiation. The payback, for me, is that if I want to tackle a tough spot of trail, or there is a genuine threat (loose dog, for example) ahead, and WE decide to tackle it...then Bandit becomes an outstanding companion. If the loose dog tries to attack, he'll be met with hooves and teeth. If the trail gets tough, Bandit buckles down. If a cactus grabs hm part way, he won't buck, bolt, spin or try to get away - he just keeps on with the task.
> 
> This became the basis of how I got over my fear of riding. I adored my Arabian mare, but years of riding her left me sometimes so afraid that mounting up made me feel like puking. It wasn't her fault. What she taught me formed the foundation of what I did with Bandit. Maybe it would have worked with her - if I had tried it. I'll never know for certain. I was certainly moving in that direction with her. But it was a couple of weeks after swapping her for Bandit that I decided to use negotiation with my horse as my basis for riding.
> 
> Now? I cannot conceive of a different way of riding. That doesn't mean I will never push my horse, but he has the option of pushing back. For me, safety on a horse has come to mean a horse I can negotiate with so as to come to a common, acceptable compromise which WE then carry out. And yes, our negotiations can get heated at times. That is OK, because Bandit and I both cool down fast. We also have developed the trust in each other to listen.
> 
> A good horse, started right, should be taught that sort of trust from the beginning. I haven't had that luxury. If I ever sell Bandit, I'll probably take out an as: "_Arabian mare wanted. Spooky is fine, but must like people._" 10 years after taking up riding, I think I could make that work. What I don't want is a horse like our horse Trooper, who just does what he is told without much question. Trooper works fine for my daughter, but isn't what I want in a horse.
> 
> < / rant >
> 
> Long, but the concepts are important. I'm not in any way telling people they should NOT train a horse to obey first and foremost. It just isn't what I'm interested in. But I think it also works very well for many horses, done by fair and caring people.


Also...I fed the horses today at about 2 pm. At 4 PM, I found out my youngest daughter had just given them hay. I pointed out they got pellets just 2 hours earlier. She said she knew.

"_You don't understand! Bandit stared at me. Then he turned his bucket upside down. Then he turned it upright. 
And then he stared at me & I could see the longing in his eyes. 
I had no choice!_"

*So...who is training whom?*​


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

bsms said:


> Also...I fed the horses today at about 2 pm. At 4 PM, I found out my youngest daughter had just given them hay. I pointed out they got pellets just 2 hours earlier. She said she knew.
> 
> "_You don't understand! Bandit stared at me. Then he turned his bucket upside down. Then he turned it upright.
> And then he stared at me & I could see the longing in his eyes.
> I had no choice!_"
> 
> *So...who is training whom?*​



Ha! Thanks for the laugh BSMS! So true!


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## bsms

This, again, is a part of how my views of training and riding horses is changing over time:



bsms said:


> I think you interpret "demand" as "you will submit totally to my will".
> 
> It can be used that way. *And needs to be for some activities*. You cannot perform a series of required movements if the horse has been taught he can negotiate everything. Even if he had the moves, Bandit could never compete in a reining competition, or WP, or dressage. Not without FIRST learning that his behavior in the arena MUST differ from how we ride trails.
> 
> Outside the arena, you don't do these sorts of things with horses without first teaching the horse that man's will is, if not irresistible, at least extremely important:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> ​
> Our modern riding tends to blind us to the fact that horses have been selectively bred for teamwork and submission for a few thousand years. The Fire Departments developed a dropping harness. When a fire was announced, the horses would go to their position in front of the fire carriage, and harnesses suspended in the air were then dropped onto their backs. This allowed the horses to be harnessed very quickly. It also required horses to go to their spot within inches, and wait quietly while people ran around shouting. At the fire, they needed to stand quietly while a building was burning next to them.
> 
> *This ability and this sort of thinking is just as much bred into them as anything people watch mustangs (feral horses) do in the West*. Using it is just as "natural" as the NH taught by people watching feral horses. The circus used teams as large as 80 IIRC to pull equipment. 80 horses cannot negotiate squat with the driver!
> 
> There is nothing really wrong with requiring submission. Tinyliny pointed out all of us change our opinions as we learn more, and that is an area where I have changed. Arabians and other hotter breeds are not the end-all of riding or life with horses. Just my personal preference.
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> But "demand" is not always "_Do X or I'll kick your butt!_" It is also, "_Doing X is not acceptable to me_", or "_My goal is to get home, which requires getting past this scary thing. My goal is inflexible, but my means of attaining that goal are open to negotiation._"
> 
> That is where people talk about blocking options. Or in Tom Robert's training dictum: "_This will profit you. This will profit you not._" I do not know how one trains a horse to do anything without the ability to say, "_This choice is unacceptable. Try another._" When you tell someone X is not acceptable, you obviously do so from a position of authority, and are demanding they not use X.
> 
> Bandit arrived here two years ago quite willing to turn and run away when he thought things were too scary - which happened once or twice a ride. I guess I was imposing my will on him in rejecting that option, but his option wasn't safe for either of us. Two years later, he is not a beginner's horse, but he is much closer to being one.
> 
> Fair and persistent demands create a calmer, more relaxed and steadier horse. Switching Mia to a curb and teaching her stop meant "STOP" didn't create fear. It eliminated a big chunk of her fear....


I spent the first 8 years riding horses who could explode with very little notice. This last year...not so much so. I think I've learned some valuable lessons about how to ride and train and live with a nervous / cautious horse. But as Bandit gets calmer - more "normal" - I am learning there are options available to me that didn't exist before.

As for "natural horsemanship"...do we really learn all that much about training domestic dogs by watching wild dogs? In what meaningful sense is my highly bred Border Collie a "wolf"?


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## bsms

From Horse Control Reminiscences by Tom Roberts. His book on the Young Horse is better, IMHO. Still...



> This horse was a confirmed jibber. He would not move when ridden alone. He just stood.
> 
> We were all eyes - and ears! How would the Captain fare with THIS horse?
> 
> [The next day] Promptly at 9 am, the Captain mounted and began to talk, as was usual. He was a most interesting lecturer, and he went on, and on. He made no attempt to move the horse, which was what we students were all waiting to see.
> 
> He talked and he talked. It was not until about 11:30 am again, that he suddenly seemed to realize the time. Again, the Captain drew his watch from his fob pocket and appeared to be most surprised to find it was so late.
> 
> "I'm sorry Gentlemen", he said , "I had no idea I had been speaking so long. Now what was the matter with this horse?"
> 
> "Try and get him to move", yelled several voices simultaneously.
> 
> To our utter astonishment and confusion, the horse cantered straight off down the School.
> 
> After a few minutes work, the Captain returned smiling..."Gentlemen, I have deceived you...Yesterday, when I mounted this horse, I immediately recognized I had to deal with a jibber [horse who would not go out alone]. I could feel he was determined not to move. The hour was late, and I knew I would need time. ALWAYS ALLOW YOURSELF TIME. Never fail to allow yourself plenty of time when about to start on a difficult horse - whatever the difficulties he presents.
> 
> "This morning at 9 o'clock, I mounted this horse with several hours ahead of me. The horse was determined not to be ridden forward. But I, too, was determined not to move.
> 
> At half-past 9, we were both still determined not to move. 10 o'clock came, and he was still determined not to move. So was I.
> 
> At 10:30, I could feel he was starting to become a little restive - but I was still determined not to move.
> 
> Now, at 11;30, we are BOTH ready to move."
> 
> ========================================================
> 
> *[....Years later, in Australia, given a horse to work who would jibber]:
> *
> ...I mounted the horse and rode off.
> 
> It was a beautiful night, full moon, still and quite warm. India at its best.
> 
> In accordance with Capt Pearce's advice I allowed myself plenty of time. I had at least 12 hours - should I need it.
> 
> The horse appeared to be enjoying the evening too, and we walked some two or three miles before he stopped. He chose as his excuse a very faint track in the grass: a track made by a few bare-footed Indians. It was little more than a faint mark. It was certainly nothing resembling an obstacle.
> 
> I first tried the driving aids to ask the horse to continue on, but at the end of 30 minutes he had not moved a foot forward - or in any other direction...
> 
> At the end of that time I was satisfied that being 'nice' to him had failed and that the time had come to try the effect of whip and spur. *I really 'laid it on' before I accepted the fact that he was prepared to suffer any punishment for a much longer time than I was prepared to administer it*.
> 
> Ordinary methods had definitely failed, and the time had come for me to try to put Capt. Jimmy Pearce's theory into practice. *This is what I had really come to try.*
> 
> I intended now to sit...just sit...on this horse's back until we were BOTH ready to go forward.
> 
> QUIET PERSISTENCE
> 
> It is all in the distant past now, and I am unable to say exactly how long he stood and I sat, motionless. It was one of the very few occasions in my life when I wished I smoked, just for something to do. The horse just stood - and stood still - and I just sat - and sat still.
> 
> Eventually he began to show signs of wanting to go back to camp, but I kept him standing still and facing forward just where he had stopped....I saw not a soul through the evening and night.
> 
> It was not until several hours more had passed (it seemed longer to me) that the horse reluctantly stepped over the so faint track. I had made no attempt to drive him forward when he became restless: he knew what was wanted of him and eventually he decided to move forward without any driving.
> 
> With voice and hand I then immediately showed my approval, and when he had all four feet over the faint track I turned him and rode him back to his Syce and his feed. Myself - I had breakfast before trying to sleep...
> 
> IMPROVEMENT
> 
> The next evening I set out again and followed the same course in every way. Another beautiful evening...and the horse stopped at the same spot.
> 
> For a few minutes I again tried to get him to continue by using the usual quiet driving forward aids, but only for a few minutes, and then I dropped the reins and just sat still. I wanted him to notice that his failure to respond to my leg aids would be followed by this spirit-breaking stillness, which would continue until he decided to do what he well knew was required of him.
> 
> After a while (some 45 minutes that seemed like hours to me - and I am sure to the horse also), he just stepped on. Again, with hand and voice I showed my pleasure and immediately turned him toward camp again...
> 
> ...Off we set the next evening, same route, and again he stopped at the same place. After a few light forward driving aids I again dropped the reins and sat. After only some 10-15 minutes on this occasion on he went, and I again told him what a good boy he was....
> 
> On the next night, the 4th of my rides, he paused for a matter of seconds only, then over the track, and again, "Home, James'.
> 
> After the fourth night he did not even pause...
> 
> ...This was the end of his jibbing...Never again did the horse stop - to my knowledge. Certainly, if he did, nobody saw or heard of it.


This is an example of "demand". Not a violent one, but an example of just not taking NO for an answer. I'm pretty sure Bandit would react differently, and try to move sideways a lot. I'm also sure I don't have the patience to try it. But it is a good example of thinking outside the box, and using a horse's nature to put the pressure on the horse.


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## bsms

These are some 30 year old reining videos. It is not how I ride. Particularly at a canter or faster, I would find it very odd. But it is probably close to the Old West style:











Looks to me like they were violating almost every rule of 'proper riding', yet getting the job done. I don't really know what to think of it. It certainly is at odds with what I was initially taught, although I have long since concluded the "Forward Seat" was also oversold - good for some things, but not the way I need to ride on a walk through the desert!



> The verb 'to sit' should be eliminated from our vocabulary where riding is concerned, for the idea it conveys is intrinsically misleading. Were it not for its indecorous connotation the word 'perch' would more aptly suggest the position that the rider should assume in what is commonly described as the 'forward' seat.
> 
> By saying that if the back of the saddle were cut away the modern horseman out never to notice its absence, we would be giving an extreme but accurate illustration of the only poise which makes the rider elastically one with the horse. - Piero Santini, Riding Reflections


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## bsms

*Ask - Tell - Demand: When is it immoral?*

At what point does a "demand" - as in "ask - tell - demand" - become immoral?

People draw differing conclusions. Some people will sore a horse, or deaden the tail, to win a competition. People used to watch bear-baiting as well.

This is a shot of a horse backing up "softly" in a recent reining competition:










A different screen capture, lower quality, of the horse going forward "softly":










Both seem to reflect the modern desire for a horse to "round" its back. And since a horse cannot round its back, they get a round appearance via unnatural head carriage.

It is very likely this horse was taught "softness" and "responsiveness" using Ask Tell Demand. The horse assumes that position at a light touch because he was taught the way Clinton Anderson taught Titan - lots of running around nose-to-toes.

That, to me, is using ATD to intimidate a horse into doing what no thinking horse would ever do on its own simply to please a fad in judging. Same here:



















Contrast that with this photo, which also required equine submission:










With 33 horses performing a single task under the supervision of one human, there isn't a lot of room for discussion or negotiation with the horse. But the difference to me is "WHY". In 1902, in Washington state, if you needed to harvest a crop, the last picture makes sense. And if it required a high degree of unity from the horses, it didn't require any unnatural movement. I doubt any of the horses in that group felt anxiety or fear. I don't think you intimidate 33 horses into doing much at once.

This one is from a record-breaking dressage performance:










I may prefer it to the reining shots, but I see nothing very natural or balanced about riding that way. I have this idea that a horse whose vision is OK ought to be allowed to look where he is going. At the end of a dressage performance, the rider loosens the reins and...the horse stretches its head out. So...why refuse to let the horse look where it is going?

I think it is clear that horses can understand going across the countryside:










Bandit has some tension here, but that tension comes from leading his herd - as he seems to view it:










He is more alert when we go out with others than when we go out alone. I think he feels responsibility for the others, so he works harder when we are with them. He also enjoys it more. I'm not taking him out much by himself any more. He rides OK. He behaves. But his heart is with his herd, and it bothers me if we are a mile away & hear one of the others calling, and a jolt goes through his body.

Maybe I'm making excuses for myself. It is possible. I get uncomfortable at times out alone. But even alone, Bandit sort of understands trail riding.

I think horses often enjoy competition with others. I think they enjoy showing off their strength, speed and physical prowess in the company of other horses. I can understand how horses might view some sports as fun.

So if I use Ask Tell Demand to prep a horse to do what I think the horse is going to enjoy doing, then I'm acting like a coach to expand the horse's horizons and make having fun with humans possible. If I did it for work, which I don't, well...I don't always enjoy work myself, but it needs to get done. I understand that fully.

But if I use ATD to get a horse to "lightly" or "softly" do something that can never make sense to the horse, then I cross the line. 

For me. Others will draw the line elsewhere. So far, at least, I've seen no sign my horses object to stretching their horizons. Yes, I sometimes push too fast or too far, and then they object. But that is a mistake on my part, not an intentional act. I never deliberately push them too far because I know that always backfires.

Can't ride right now because Bandit cut his front leg Saturday. My wife is an RN who regularly does wound care, and she is in charge of treating it. It seems to be responding well right now. But he'd go bonkers if we took the other two out and rode them, and bonkers won't help him heal.

I also need to buy some good hay. We're on our last bale, and this one has some nasty stuff in it. Don't know what it is, but even Bandit and Cowboy refused to eat it - and they will both cheerfully munch on dried tumbleweeds! They got hay pellets for breakfast, but this final bale is going to the trash.


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## bsms

BTW - the style of riding used in the reining competitions 25+ years ago kind of freaks me out, but I like the way the horses moved a lot better.


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## gottatrot

^^^Good post.

I agree very much about the component of ATD only being humane if the horse is asked to do something natural for them. If I am about to hit a tree and ask the horse to move sideways, he doesn't, so I cue stronger and then yank him away suddenly before we hit it, the horse will look at the tree and give me this "aw shucks, I didn't realize" type of reaction. He understands later that I was saving our bacon and knows why I got a little harsh with him. 

Demanding that a horse does things that are unfair, or teaching new people that this method is "the way" before they have a good feel for horses is a wrong approach. 
I'm sort of "six in one hand and a half dozen in the other." Yes, good horsemen use the approach judiciously. And also people use it to beat horses into submission and create horse zombies. Or discard horses that won't comply.

It is the attitude that grates, as Hondo suggests, but as Horseluvr2524 said, I don't think this is something you can change in others or even teach. Those who use terms that blame the horse constantly seem to not understand the difference. Which is why I see those who allow their horse to step in close and they give scratches and pets, and then the next time the horse steps in close they yell and start shanking the horse because he's not allowed into their personal space. And the horse looks confused and reacts strongly, because you know, he's got a bad attitude. Once I told someone (and this is not my style), "I think_ you _have the bad attitude."

Your comments and @Hondo's about the horses getting upset when near their herd reminds me of how I used to come riding home on Halla near dusk at our last barn. The setup was that we'd ride away and all the horses would be out in the various pastures around the barn. When we'd come back, often the horses would have been put in for the night. I'd have this relaxed horse walking down the road, and then we'd round the corner and the pastures would come into sight. Halla's body would tense and she'd raise her head in alarm at the sight of the empty pastures. It always made me laugh, because I wondered if she thought there had been an apocalypse that wiped out all the horses while we were away. "Where did everybody go?"


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## bsms

In the process of consolidating two households under one roof, a lot of stuff needed to be thrown out. I got rid of hundreds of books that didn't make the cut. And somehow, unintentionally, my copy of "Hollywood Hoofbeats" went missing. Couldn't find it, couldn't find it, so I swallowed hard...and bought a second copy. An Amazon review said the hardback had better pictures, so I bought the hardback. Going by memory, I think the pictures ARE better in the hardback. I bought it largely for the pictures. I think I'll enjoy leafing through it for a long time.

Anyways, I'm posting this from the book. If anyone enjoys both movies and horses, I strongly recommend it as a fun read and a fun book to look through. This is Slim Pickens riding 'Dear John' for a publicity photo. I'm thinking the landing had to hurt:








​ 
Not all the pictures are ones that bring a smile to my face. It also has a picture of two horses in the 1939 movie "Jesse James" being ridden to their deaths off a 75 foot cliff. The stunt riders jumped off in time. That was enough to invoke government intervention, and is why many following films included the phrase "No horses were hurt..."

Haven't ridden for a week. Bandit somehow opened a 4" gash on his left knee. The good news is it is healing. My guess is that Cowboy was involved, because the two of them used to share food buckets and now Bandit won't allow Cowboy to come close to him.

My wife does wound care as a nurse, and I think Bandit has decided she is his "_Personal, Private, Executive Wound Care Nurse_". He gets prancy when I take a look at it, but lifts his leg and watches with interest when she doctors it. It is pretty much at the 'wound spray' stage. But he looks at me with a look that says, "_Amateur! Go fetch my personal nurse!_"

Don't like watching Cowboy get a bit bullied by the others, but it started at the same time Bandit was hurt. It may take quite a while to get things calm in the corral. Cowboy has done more running in the last week than in the previous year. He is starting to get fitter...but I don't like watching it! Don't know what else to do but let them sort it out.


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> My wife does wound care as a nurse, and I think Bandit has decided she is his "_Personal, Private, Executive Wound Care Nurse_". He gets prancy when I take a look at it, but lifts his leg and watches with interest when she doctors it. It is pretty much at the 'wound spray' stage. But he looks at me with a look that says, "_Amateur! Go fetch my personal nurse!_"


You know what they say, "Dogs have owners, horses have staff."

Amore has taken to pooping whenever she sees my husband walk up with a pitchfork. 
He asked, "What am I supposed to think about that?" 
I told him she is thinking, "Oh good, the staff are here to clean things up."


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## bsms

@gottatrot posted this thread the other day:

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-tack-equipment/bau-cantilevered-saddle-764769/#post10053417

Some pictures from their website ( buasaddles ):



















From a review:










Bua Saddle Review ? D&L Performance Horses​ 
At $2300, it is out of my "I'll try that!" price range, although it look competitive. That is the "upper mid-range" for English saddles.

It also looks very close to what I'd design myself if I had the facilities and chance to experiment. The tree looks like a great idea. You cannot see it in the pictures one can link to, but it is rolled at the front, and suspended everywhere else. It looks like a great way to absorb shock without transferring it to the horse's back.

Something that would drive me nuts are the thigh blocks. I think the dressage version is in the picture, but all of them have very pronounced blocks. That might sound odd from someone who still regularly rides an Australian saddle, but the poleys are higher up. I have a lot of freedom about where to put my leg in an Aussie saddle.

The way I learned riding, reading Chamberlin and Littauer, an inexperienced rider should rely on the stirrups rather than the knee. The Italian school emphasized a fixed knee, but Littauer noticed his students who used a fixed knee tended to rotate forward and off, face first, when the horse misbehaved. So while he agreed a fixed knee would work very well for a talented and dedicated rider, he concluded it was dangerous for a beginner or a recreational rider.

In Riding Reflections, a contemporary of Caprilli commented that saddle makers had started extending the panel under the saddle down along the front, providing extra grip for the knee. He also said some had started adding knee rolls on top, which he also liked - since he liked the fixed knee.

An Australian saddle differs in part from an English one in that they never added the extended panels for the knee under the saddle.

Since much of my "English" riding was done in an Aussie saddle, and since I rarely added the knee blocks to my Bates saddles, I never tried the Italian, fixed knee approach to riding. It has become very common. A video @jaydee posted about posting emphasized the knee should not move and the thigh should rotate around the pivot of the knee - exactly what Littauer and Chamberlin rejected.

Using my Aussie saddle just before Bandit hurt himself, I realized gripping with the knee would be extremely difficult. The leather is slick, and the lack of any padding on top or underneath means there is nothing for the knee to grip against. You trust the poleys as a safety stop, but if you ride "properly" in an Aussie saddle you won't touch the poleys except during emergencies. You do what Littauer taught, and let the stirrups be your foundation rather than your knees. 

I also find it very hard in my western saddle to grip with the knees, although the sheepskin allows for some grip with the thighs. Without the sheepskin, my slick seat / slick fork western saddle makes it very hard to grip with ANYTHING, so one once again needs to rely on the stirrups and moving the leg forward to catch you in a balk or stumble.

I don't know if the company has a "no thigh pad" option. They may, but I'm not QUITE interested enough to spend $2300 on their saddle. We may need to replace our AC unit soon, and my wife might think the money better spend on THAT!

Anyways, I'm glad to see some innovation. The endurance folks are about the only people who seem interested in getting a modern saddle versus continuing to use what was used 200 years ago because it was used for 200 years and "_If it was good enough for Great-Grandfather's horse then it is good enough for mine_". :evil:

Note: Actually, I'm pretty sure Cowboy kicked Bandit on the knee, and Bandit will not let Cowboy come close now. Cowboy is getting so beaten up that we are going to make a separate corral for him later today. From "We share bowls of food" before the gash appeared, to "I'll kill you if you come close" now. In truth, Cowboy is my favorite horse. If I could only keep one of them, it would be Cowboy.​


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## bsms

Couldn't find a decent Internet picture. This one is marginal, but it will illustrate the bottom of my Aussie saddle, with the front at the top:










Sorry for the blur, but it is good enough to illustrate my point. The front extends slightly downward, but nothing like this:










By BLW - Own work, CC BY-SA 3.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=1956507


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## bsms

Cowboy is now in a separate corral. It isn't as large as I'd like, but he's been getting beat up. There is a 5-7' gap between the two corrals, so I don't think they can do much "Bitey-Face". I really dislike needing two corrals. Don't have the room or the patience for it. I'm hoping that once we start riding out again that Bandit will start accepting Cowboy again.

We'll try it for a while. If it gets worse, then Bandit would be the one to be sold. Cowboy has had at least 6 previous owners. He spent a couple of years as a lesson horse. He is terrified of round pens, which says a lot about how people around here abuse the concept. As used around here, they are often "punishment pens". And Cowboy has a history of taking good care of his riders, even if they have never been on a horse before.

He has EARNED a safe place, where people will trail ride him and let him stay mentally relaxed. People tend to look at him and think, "_Oh, he'd make a good barrel racing pony for my 9 year old!_" But he's been there, done that before. He shouldn't be put thru it again.

If it comes to it, Bandit would make a good ranch horse. Or a good trail horse for someone who rides a lot.

But HOPEFULLY they will get it sorted out. :-(


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## jaydee

Sorry to hear about the warzone thing - Our lot now spend most of their time in separate paddocks, they can interact over the fence and seem perfectly content. Maybe its because they're all mares but we always had something with an injury when they were together though I've kept horses together in the past and mares and no trouble at all. I did have a pony that wouldn't tolerate anything in her paddock and Honey wouldn't allow Willow to be in with her and Flo.


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## bsms

Rode for the first time in 2 weeks. Only 10 minutes. Got a late start, and it was like riding in an oven. 100 degrees, no wind, intense sun. 10 minutes had sweat pouring down my sides & getting in my eyes, and Bandit was wet with sweat when I removed his saddle. But we did W/T/C, and he acted relaxed and comfortable. He was playing with Trooper yesterday. I figured if he was healthy enough to race around, chasing and being chased by Trooper, then we could ride.

His wound is healing nicely. My wife is doing wound care for several patients right now. She says Bandit's wound has healed much better than her patients', and she feels like she ought to use 'wound spray' on them! Of course, that is both unethical and utterly illegal. But she now knows why I used to use it on myself at times, early in our marriage, before she put an end to it.

*Cowboy is settling in to his own corral very nicely*. ​ 
We are now wondering if that would be a good permanent solution. He is grazing at his food. Give him hay for breakfast, and he'll wander by regularly, chew a few bites, and then move on. Breakfast lasts him until dinner. He also has been lying down more than we've seen before, and is NOT hanging out at the part of the corral closest to the other horses. If anything, he seems to enjoy having a bachelor pad.

So we'll see. My daughter suggested that desperation may have given us a better answer. Or it could be he had a very rough week and needs some time off. But he sure isn't showing any signs of separation anxiety. He acts very relaxed. In his past life, he has spent years living in his own 20 foot by 10 foot stall - and he has far more room than that here, and can always see the other horses. So....we'll see. He could afford to lose 50-75 lbs anyways.


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## egrogan

bsms said:


> But she now knows why I used to use it on myself at times, early in our marriage, before she put an end to it.



Back in the spring, I sliced off a huge piece of my fingernail with a chef's knife. I had to go to the emergency room because hours later I couldn't stop it from bleeding. They covered it with some sort of artificial scab that stayed on for a month or so, but when the artificial bandage finally came off, it was back to bleeding every time I bumped it on something. I finally sprayed it with Vetricyn, and I swear that was when a funky looking but solid scab formed and stayed put. I think that stuff is magic!


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## bsms

I still use it, provided the ouchy is somewhere my wife isn't likely to notice the red or purple stain...:cheers:


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## bsms

The farrier will be here tomorrow. I think I'm going to have him pull Bandit's shoes.

On the one hand, the shoes REALLY help Bandit in the mid-high level of rockiness. They aren't enough when things get REALLY rocky - that requires a dismount to save his feet, regardless. And they are not needed on all the trails. But there definitely are sections of trail where he can go comfortably in shoes and not so without them.

On the other hand, I've been avoiding paved roads with him. Yes, horses can certainly be ridden on paved roads in shoes. But the loud "clip-clop" of the shoes reminds me with every stride that he doesn't have the grip he does barefoot. We can get to desert with just 1/4 mile of paved road, but going anywhere besides the area closest to me requires a mile or so on paved roads. I realize I am avoiding those, and also avoiding riding him on pavement solo. If we're alone, and I want to do a little arena work broken up by 5-10 minutes on the paved roads...I just don't ride. I'm not worried about falling off. Just worried he will fall and take me with him. On paved road, that sounds incredibly painful.

My youngest daughter actually likes riding through neighborhoods. She points out Trooper likes it too - easy on the feet, and Trooper can easily guess where we are going for the next 1/4 mile. I need to work with Bandit to get him comfortable in neighborhoods...but any riding outside of the couple hundred acres of desert next to me means riding on pavement.

And I'm avoiding it.

So I think the metal shoes will come off, and I'll try boots. I'll also try more barefoot on pavement, with the goal of the ride including ample time on paved roads. Bandit hasn't spun away to avoid something in a year or so, and it probably isn't fair for me to worry. But I do. Maybe too many memories with Mia that still need to be overwritten. I'm pretty comfortable handling things on pavement with a barefoot horse. I assume boots would work pretty good too. The metal shoes make me nervous.

I've been reading about trimming the bars, etc. It seems like everyone has a different idea. On Bandit, the bars seem to get spread out flatter and then break off in chunks. So I may include trimming the bars a bit to see how things respond.

Just before shoeing:










A few days after:


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## bsms

Happy note: 12 years after we moved here, the Internet service was upgraded to day to 8 times faster than what we've had for the last 12 years. We were literally the last block to get the upgrade! There is only one company that provides Internet service here, so switching wasn't an option.


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## gottatrot

You and Bandit might both like boots once you get the hang of them. If you get the right type for the horse's hoof shape, they fit well, and you get used to putting them on, they are great. 

When I first tried boots I thought they were terrible and such a pain to put on. We didn't get a good fit and I kept having them come off during rides or rub the pasterns. But over the years they've improved boots tremendously and things like rubbing and the difficulty getting boots on are much better than they used to be. 

Having the ability to gallop on gravel roads with good traction and no worries about sole bruising turned me into a boot fan. Having the ability to take them off and have the horse barefoot the rest of the time was also great. In the end I liked them better than shoes, because they ended up costing less (assuming I put shoes on year round), giving me more ability to go over rough ground than even shoes, and my horses' hooves were healthier. No worries about a shoe ripping off a huge chunk of hoof wall if it got torn off. 
My favorite boots are Renegades, with Easycare boots coming in second.
I can put most types of boots on in 30 seconds per hoof if the horse cooperates. 

I know what you mean about feeling insecure on asphalt with shoes. I haven't been on a horse that slipped and fell on pavement, but many times I've had horses' feet slip and slide when we were on asphalt and they were shod. Boots have great traction on pavement.


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## bsms

Bandit is barefoot again on all four feet. Rode him briefly afterward. Now that Trooper and Bandit share a corral by themselves, Trooper squeals shamelessly when he can't see Bandit. In Trooper's defense, we think he may be gradually losing the vision in one eye. If so, that might explain it.

Or it could just be that Trooper doesn't like being left alone.

In any case, I took Bandit for a short ride on the pavement. We had a lot of rain last night. The corrals are seas of mud, and mud had washed across the pavement where the wash crosses it, about 300 yards down from my house. Bandit seemed a bit bewildered by the lack of his shoes. Me? I loved how silently we moved along.

He got light on the front end with the smell of the mud and debris washed across the road (which the county will probably clean up in a week or two). So I gave him some slack, with my hand well forward in case I wanted my reins short again. Told him to figure it out. And he did.

Best part? I wasn't worried. Maybe it was false confidence on my part, but I figured if he did something stupid, he'd still stay on his feet. And I don't plan on coming off, so we would stay upright. 

Maybe not in the same location! But upright. The rest I can deal with. And it felt good! :cheers:


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## bsms

bsms said:


> Sorry to hear the problems. I hope to ride out on Bandit in a little while, maybe with Trooper. Bandit has spent the last 3 weeks healing and getting a little light riding very close to home, but I suspect he is getting "barn sour". His leg is healing nicely but I've got a hunch today will be more work than fun. Barefoot again, so if he acts up on pavement...I won't worry. As much...


Well, just did a 75-90 minute ride with Bandit & Trooper. I'm soaked with sweat. He has sweat running down his sides. It was a good ride in the sense we did a lot of things that were good to get done, but it was work from the get-go.

The good news is that he is starting to trust Trooper. Going thru the neighborhood, Trooper had the lead. Winds were 10 gusts to 30, with few 30 mph gusts but lots of 20 mph ones. Bandit was tense but watching Trooper and learning.

Went into the desert, and Bandit took the lead. He was a bit ouchy in the rocky spots without his shoes, particularly since we've had days of rain and mud to soften his feet. There was a guy doing work on his arena with a large earthmoving machine - and OMG! Big thing, his horses were making noise, smoke, dirt and mud moving...like my farrier said, if I wanted a calm horse who would glide past things without glancing, I bought the wrong horse!

At one point, Trooper had to take the lead and show it was OK to go down a section of wash. But Bandit was trying. He was just tense. No, I didn't need to kick him to get him to go. He would move at a kiss or squeeze...but it wasn't easy for him.

When we got back, Trooper was dry. It is uncommonly cool for this time of year. Bandit had sweat rolling down his sides. That was just mental tension. But he didn't give up. He was trying. Can't ask more than that, IMHO. 

Some disagree. I read on the Internet yesterday that you should NEVER ride without a whip! So...I guess I suck at riding. Glad I know others who suck the same way! My T-shirt looks like I dropped it in a bathtub. Good ride? I dunno. Worth it ride? Yeah. Well worth it. Now it is time for Motrin & a shower!

:cheers:
:riding:​


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## bsms

This thread:

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/arab-gelding-refuses-go-forward-766705/

plus a thread on another unnamed forum where I sometimes post renew an old question:

Do horses feel rewarded when we dismount? Do they think, "_Oh good, he's off my back, I need to do again whatever it was that got him off!_"?

If my horse was that eager for me to dismount, I'd have to rethink riding altogether!

I try, when riding around the local area, to dismount once an hour anyways. I walk the horse for 5 minutes with a loose cinch, then tighten it and mount up again. My horse acts refreshed. My legs & knees feel refreshed. My thighs feel refreshed. So I do it for no other reason, and perhaps that is why my horses don't notice dismounting in connection with anything. It may truly mean nothing more than I noticed we had been out 60+ minutes!

Or maybe it is because there is a difference between dismounting & "End of Ride", and dismounting and leading them somewhere. Horses seem to enjoy the "End of Ride", particularly if they have done a good job. But if I dismount on the trail and lead them somewhere, it isn't the end of ANYTHING. It is often the beginning of 2-5 minutes of mild apprehension as we walk closer to something that looks scary. 

Can't say I've ever had a horse just balk and refuse to continue a ride, so I don't know how that would work. But it seems to me that if the horse decides it is time to stop going forward, and one dismounts and does what it takes to get the horse moving again, and then a short time later you mount up and continue...then it is just "_This will profit you not_" combined with "_Quiet Persistence_".

On the other forum, it seemed a point of pride for people to claim "I've never dismounted!" As with so much of riding and what I seem to find so often in "highly experience riders", it seems it is more about rider pride than getting a horse to do what one wants and doing so quietly and low-key.

A few weeks ago, I saw online the comment to the effect that 'I wouldn't stoop to bribing my horse with treats. Not as long as I can hold a crop!' I felt like asking if their Boss stooped to bribing them to go to work...

I like horses, but I admit a lot of riders make me very sad. And ashamed. I know some on HF have felt I'm too demanding and harsh with my horses, and I understand that we won't all draw the line in the same place. But it seems riding is so often cast in the light of "Me Win. You Lose."

To a certain extent, I understand that when it involves work. A guy who is going to ride his horse on a ranch in the Sonoran Desert may need to do so when it is 100+ and both man and beast will be worn down. I have friends who have mounted up when it was 20 below to go work the sheep. Not much fun to be had, I'm thinking.

But when we ride for FUN? How can it be fun if the horse always has to lose? How can we feel like winners if winning means conquering our horse? How long would you want to play a game if the other person beat you 100% of the time? I like horses, but I really have doubts about people!


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## gottatrot

I agree very much with the above post. 
I do think of what we ask horses to do for us as their work. But I hope my horses have enjoyable and fulfilling careers that they might have chosen for themselves rather than working in a forced hard labor situation. 
It seems better to have someone working for me because they get paid and the work is fair, rather than working for me because if they don't, I will punish them. 

For me, dismounting is not about being so experienced you can do everything from the saddle. It's about taking into consideration the horse that you have, and what will work best for them. I can't actually remember ever getting off Halla because she got "stuck" or fearful. I do remember going many directions faster than I wanted to, or sudden abrupt stops because something startled her. But she is courageous and will face her fears or zoom around them. If she wants to stop for a second to think, I let her because she just needs a second and then will make a decision.

Probably most horses I've ridden could be easily influenced to go forward just by the rider's confidence and they just didn't get "stuck." 

Amore, on the other hand is a fearful horse, and was fearful of the entire world when I started her. I tried riding her through being stuck with pressure, anticipating slow downs and correcting before she stopped, making her move her feet and/or circle instead of standing, etc. She was always happy to go out with other horses, or when led. Pushing her through was quite difficult, moving her feet did nothing but make me tired and dizzy, but hopping off and trotting her by things soon taught her that she had to be confident and try because stopping and freezing up wasn't going to happen anymore. 

This horse probably isn't thinking about how much she hopes the rider doesn't get on her. Rather, she's scared of the moving waves. Looks like the kind of horse that gets "stuck."








Sometimes it's probably a good move to get off and see how the horse reacts, no matter how good of a rider you are.


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## horseluvr2524

I feel the same about people bsms.

I remember in my youth, at a gymkhana, hearing about other riders' moms saying things like "good riders don't fall off". "Barrel Moms" I called them, and I learned to stay away from the gymkhanas to avoid seeing and hearing the atrocities and things that just really made me grit my teeth. One particular little girl ruined a horse EVERY YEAR and got a new horse EVERY YEAR, but all anyone could say is what a great little rider she was.

In fact, I'm missing out on fun things like trail classes due to my refusal to go to that particular arena anymore. I will not set foot on the property. Too many bad memories, and a few burned bridges with some people who frequent that arena that I have no desire to run into.

Apologies, not my intention to hijack or segway.

As far as dismounting goes, I'd follow my gut instinct when it says to get off than risk being on the back of an out of control animal that I have no hope of stopping (been there, done that). If somebody has an issue with how I handle my horse and my life (because we are talking about risking your life here), then they can just eat their dirty gym socks. :razz:


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## bsms

I guess I ought to add that I understand physical reasons from not wanting to dismount. When I watch my youngest spring into the saddle...well, it doesn't remind me of me. It reminds me of birthdays, and how many I've had!

It is the antagonistic attitude folks sometimes have. Not on the thread I linked to so much as on a couple of forums where I sometimes lurk. One I don't even try to post on, and the other...when I post, I usually regret it. It is like pulling the lid off a septic tank.

When people who have had horses for 40 years or more tell me horses constantly try to move up the food chain, and watch me for any sign of weakness...I wonder what horses THEY have met, because that does NOT describe any of the horses I've known! Mia could be a dominant horse, but I never once felt like she was trying to make me subordinate to her. We went toe to hoof a few times, mostly when I pressed her too hard for her understanding and capability. Once in a great while - maybe once a year - she'd just be in a foul mood. But I have days like that, and more than once a year!

But 99% of the time, it is a sign I've pressed hard and the horse is confused, nervous, worried - and protecting himself. Maybe even screaming, "_I can't do this!_" to a human who is acting deaf that day! Bandit is less "willing" than Mia. Honestly, the Arabians get a reputation, but I find Arabians incredibly willing by nature. I swear Arabians are genuine sweethearts on hooves! Bandit is more likely to tell me to go to Hades - and provide a map of the fastest route - but he still isn't trying to dominate me. I suspect a better description would be that he is feeling too dominated by me and trying to get room to breathe.

People say horses want to follow a Great Leader - the Wise, Strong Leader they can follow without thinking at all. I don't see much sign of it. Don't know if it is owning Arabians and mustangs, but my horses all seem to want to be participants. *They want a reasonable, fair work environment - preferably with pay.* They like to understand the work they are given, to know how to do it, to believe it is within their capabilities, to be appreciated when they succeed and helped when they are feeling overwhelmed.

BTW - one of the things I've thought about with Bandit & going barefoot is maybe I just need to dismount more often when the trail is getting rocky. Doesn't matter if the OTHER horses don't need to be led. If getting my 170 lbs off his back means his feet have less pressure on them & he can cross that section without discomfort, then WHY AM I STAYING ON HIS BACK?! I'm such a doofus at times!

And no, I don't think Bandit will feel like he has beaten me...:evil:

PS: I've been on a horse spinning mindlessly on pavement with cars coming at us. If anyone made a T-shirt like that, I could honestly own it. And I will gladly go the rest of my life without a repeat!


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## bsms

@*egrogan* , I copied this from your journal​ 
http://www.horseforum.com/member-journals/my-mare-star-trail-today-can-431322/page49/#post10084033

I really enjoyed your story. But I also got a smile when I saw this picture:








​ 
I look that way sometimes on my horse, in a western saddle. Not all the time, of course, but sometimes it feels right. Glad to know there are much more experienced riders who look like that sometimes too!

:winetime:

BTW - has anyone heard of using English stirrup leathers and stirrups with a western saddle? Would it work OK? Or do they make toe cages for western stirrups? I'd like to try riding in sneakers. Seems to me it actually would be safe enough provided my foot could slip easily out of the sneaker. But I'd feel MUCH safer trying it using a toe cage.​ ​


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## horseluvr2524

There are these:

Tapadero Stirrups









But honestly, I think if your foot was going to get stuck, it would get stuck regardless. Might even be worse with the tapadero stirrups if your foot went in the little gap between stirrup and hood.

Lots of endurance riders ride with gym shoes. These are a clever idea.
https://www.horseloverz.com/english-riding-boots/riding-sneakers


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## bsms

These say they can be used with a western saddle:

E-Z Ride Nylon Caged Endurance Stirrups

E-Z Ride Aluminum Ultimate Endurance Stirrups w/ Cages

"_The newly designed top bar system allows stirrup leather widths ranging from 1"-3" to be used without having to switch out top bars_."

They look pretty tempting. When visiting my friend's ranch last summer, I noticed one of his sons wore sneakers. One wore work boots with lugged soles ( :eek_color: ). Both of the full time sheepherders wore sneakers. No one used caged stirrups. When I asked, they said their feet would slide out of the sneaker if the shoe got caught.








​


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## AtokaGhosthorse

The 'kids' around here (Meaning late teens through to 30s) have been wearing those Twisted X boot/shoe looking things to ride. I... am not convinced I want to give up my Ariats just yet....


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## bsms

I am probably over cautious...but I am what I am. The two sheepherders were starting (IIRC) their third year at the ranch (and are now doing their 4th). They do 12+ hour days in the summer, all kinds of terrain (and weather). The mountain slopes ahead of them were used a few weeks later for grazing, so they had to ride on them.

When I was many years younger, I spent a summer doing vegetation surveys on those slopes. Some of them were tough going on two feet. I really cannot imagine riding them on top of four. Particularly not now, almost 4 decades later!










Not cheap...but tempting!


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## phantomhorse13

bsms said:


> Not cheap...but tempting!


Look for the older model EZ rides in nylon (aka plastic), as the older style aluminum ones can crush. 












Places like Riding Warehouse generally have the best prices. They also come in different bar widths. The new type (what you pictured) are insanely expensive and there isn't nearly enough difference to account for it, from what I have heard from a handful of people who use them.

If you are on the book of faces, you can likely find a used pair for under $50.


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## bsms

Ordered the nylon version, along with this bit:










Weaver Sweet Iron Medium Port Curb Bit​ 
Both will be an experiment. A friend of mine is 85 and raised and sold horses for over 50 years. He told me to toss all my snaffles and just use a solid shank low port curb. Said he ditched his snaffle bits after his first couple of years, and then rode and trained with nothing but a low port solid curb. And some folks who had ridden some of his horses said they were great to ride.

Still, I have ZERO intent to toss my snaffles! However, with Bandit, I'm doing more and more neck reining, to include times when things get tense. He often seems to respond quicker and more accurately to one handed neck reining than direct rein.

Got to thinking about it, and I can see how a solid shank curb might give cleaner cues with one hand than many snaffles do. So...I'll try it. On Bandit. I've never tried a solid shank curb before. Bandit hasn't either, although he goes fine in Tom Thumbs & Billy Allens. So we'll try it and see how he responds. I have no expectations. Not good, and not bad.

The old guy sold his last horses a few years back. His idea of fun, for MANY years, was to trailer out a couple of horses and he and his wife would ride across the desert home...then go and fetch the trailer. 20-25 miles typically. He loved TWHs. Says they are "The Cadillacs of the Desert". "_It is hard to find a place to trot a horse in the desert_", he says, "_so why not use a horse that walks fast and goes forever - and smoothly!_" 

I told him I didn't know how to ride a horse who wouldn't snort and trot sideways. He just laughed.

He might have some eccentric ideas, but he said he figured out early on that the lower key his training was, the better the horses turned out. And a guy who rode one of his horses said the only problem was they would go ANYWHERE, and he was too new a rider to want to TRY to go anywhere!

It could all be a total failure. I've had plenty of those in riding. But unless one tries new things, one won't learn much.

And if I'm going to do a lot of hopping off and on my horse, maybe sneakers will feel good to my feet!


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## horseluvr2524

Curbs are very common in the gaited world. I'm not super sure why. I know they don't go practicing laterals in the dressage arena with their gaited horses, so there is less need for fancy bending and turns, pretty much just turn, whoa, slow down, etc. My brother in law has a TWH stud back in Ohio, and he breeds a few mares, had a few foals. I missed both of the most recent foals :sad: I need some kind of teleportation machine to teleport me and Shan and DH back to visit and ride for a day. lol.

I am very curious, and I'm asking because I'm hoping you might know. How do the sheep herd owners graze their herds? Do they graze them on state land? Is there a lot of red tape with that? Do they stay out with the sheep 24/7? Is there special preparation (calling counties, permission, etc.) they have to do to move the flocks through all those towns and over all that state land?
Just my curiosity at work here. I know things can be very difficult for people still trying to farm the old ways.


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## bsms

The sheep move around depending on where the owner can find grazing rights. He prefers private land because the federal land tends to be more trouble than it is worth. He once spent $100,000 on grazing rights, and the next year they cut him 90%! No reason either...it would take a while to explain, but it was more of a clerical error than anything else. But that didn't matter. 90% of what he went in debt to buy was gone and never came back.

I don't know if he uses any state land. I'm sure he would if it was available and the price was right. He uses semi-trucks to move them around.

Moving them from the low desert to the mountains is based on when he can get permission from the feds to move them. IIRC, he has multiple allotments covering the summer months...something like 8000 acres in a unit, and multipe units with on & off dates determined by the government.

The herders are with them 24/7. They need to move out with the sheep a little before dawn, and usually bed them down at sunset. THEN they can return to camp, care for horses & dogs, eat and catch some sleep. During the winter, he tries to keep them on his own land when he can, but they do spend time on public land - and that means someone needs to be with them, 24/7. If it is 20 below, someone still needs to move out and watch them!

Decent sheepherders are impossible to find in the USA. They actually fall under a special, no limit visa program. The rancher has to fund tickets, pay a certain wage, provide medical insurance, tickets home once a year (IIRC), provide cell phones (which often cannot work due to no coverage). It is highly regulated.

My friend knew nothing about running a sheep ranch when he started. He had a little experience with cattle, but has mostly learned by trial and error - and the errors have nearly driven him out of business several times. One of his sons has grown up doing the work and LOVES it, and has started buying land and working to expand things.

It has been a brutally hard life. My friend has taken it easier the last 10 years physically, and for the first time in 10 years can once again raise his arms above his shoulders! When you've worked THAT hard, you have worked HARD. But he also has loved it and has no regrets at all.

I couldn't imagine doing it. Visiting for a few days is fun. We've stayed in touch for 40 years. But the amount of work he has done, and the number of times weather or the US government has knocked him on his back, staggers me. I worked 12 hour days most of my adult life, but I didn't take the sort of financial risks he took all the time. I've been shot at in combat, and I prefer that to the sort of risks and work he has done.


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## trailhorserider

bsms said:


> They look pretty tempting. When visiting my friend's ranch last summer, I noticed one of his sons wore sneakers. One wore work boots with lugged soles ( :eek_color: ). Both of the full time sheepherders wore sneakers. No one used caged stirrups. When I asked, they said their feet would slide out of the sneaker if the shoe got caught.
> 
> ​


On the subject of sneakers, I ride in sneakers all the time. That's all I ride in. I used to get a lecture from a friend I rode with about how I should be riding in cowboy boots, but you know what, those things take some effort to get on and off. And I've heard of rodeo riders cutting the backs of their boots so their feet will slip out in an emergency.

I have come off many times and (knock on wood) have not got hung up. I've thrown a shoe (from my own feet) a few times though. I wear my sneakers loose enough that I can slide them on and off without untying the laces. So when the crud hits the fan, my shoes come off pretty easy. Like I said, I actually had to retrieve a shoe on a few occasions because the horse spun and I lost it, or I got dumped off the horse and I lost it.

I don't want to test my theory out, but I truly believe loose sneakers are safer than a lot of boots people wear. Some of those boots are so tight, or they are lace-ups, that if your foot ever DID become hung up, there would be no chance of you getting your foot out of it. I know from experience my feet will slide right out of my sneakers. And besides, they are so comfortable and cool compared to boots.

I also like the bit you are buying. I used to be a big fan of Argentine snaffles but have gradually moved towards ported curb bits with my trail horses. I am a big fan of Myler bits too. But the bit you are purchasing is a good bit and I'm sure it costs a lot less than a Myler. I have also gone towards riding gaited horses. I don't know if that has effected my choice of bits because it wasn't a conscious decision on my part. I used to ride everything......Arabians, Mustangs, Paints. But my current riding horses just happen to be Missouri Fox Trotters. I do think most gaited horses are trained to ride in curbs with light contact. Which I do as well. Back when I owned my Arabians and the Mustang I was more of an Argentine snaffle person. But I don't really know if breed has anything to do with it. It might just be a natural evolution in my riding and understanding of bits. But it's hard to beat a simple curb like the one you posted a picture of. You should be able to use that on almost any western trained horse. It's mild. It's simple. It's versatile. Most horses should accept it.


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## bsms

trailhorserider said:


> On the subject of sneakers, I ride in sneakers all the time. That's all I ride in... I wear my sneakers loose enough that I can slide them on and off without untying the laces. So when the crud hits the fan, my shoes come off pretty easy...


That is perfectly logical. It also contradicts what I was brought up believing. I tried using some older lace-up cowboy boots (packers?) that I had owned for years hiking, but while the boot couldn't go thru the stirrup while the heel held, if the heel came off...well, the boot sure wasn't going to ever come off my foot!

I usually wear my Red Wing work boots. They are loose enough to slide off easily and very durable. My previous pair still sees use at times, and I bought them in 1990! But they are HEAVY cowboy boots.

I'm actually starting to think about dismounting more, not less. Maybe try for 5 minutes out of 30 instead of 5 out of 60. My horse won't mind. I'd like to think we have some special, unicornical relationship that makes his highest pleasure hauling my rump around, but....um, he won't mind my getting off and walking!

So...I'll start with some caged western stirrups and see what I think. But riding in loose sneakers makes sense to me. It just...well, it doesn't exactly follow the crowd, does it?! :wink:

I've used Billy Allen curb bits. Bandit (and all my horses) do just fine in a Tom Thumb. But since I mostly neck rein Bandit, maybe the firmness of the solid shank will help? I hadn't thought about the old guy I know owning mostly gaited horses. And maybe that affected his outlook. But for going across the desert, much of the time off trail, one DOESN'T trot much, and almost never canters. You can move at a good pace along a trail, but once you turn off it...yegads:








​ 
And even that photo is a section about 150 yards long, bracketed by two sharp drops that cross small but very rocky washes. While a horse could jump the rocks, he'd land on a loose shale slope. No thanks! Too old for that!

-----------------------------------------------------------

I wonder of the old guy's success wasn't rooted in simplicity. He had clear but fairly simple goals - to be able to cross desert country safely, without too much fuss or bother. He's the sort who would take his time teaching his horses. And once they learned what the goal was, he allowed them to figure out the details for themselves.

If the horse understands at some level that A is behind us, B is somewhere ahead, and we're going from A to B and then I'll have shelter, food, water and companionship...he'll figure out how to get to B. He might needs some guidance, of course, but horses understand crossing country to get to shelter, food and rest. Heck, a zebra would understand that!

In terms of cues, you need to be able to tell the horse go forward, go back, stop, turn left, turn right, or do any of those with more vigor. But you sure as heck don't need to teach the horse a half-halt to tell him to rebalance himself because we're then going to turn on a 10 meter circle while I show how little I can move!

Bandit wasn't born in this environment. He has needed and still needs experience in where we ride so he can learn how to move his best, how to choose good footing, when to slow regardless of me, etc. But there are two opposed philosophies of riding at work.

One says I am the brain, the horse is the muscle, and I need to control the horse's muscles. People write about learning to control each part of the horse's body, and then worry no end about "his shoulder is falling in" or "he came apart in the turn".

The other says the horse has both brain and muscle, and we set goals for him to achieve. That approach won't go far for show jumping or dressage. The FEI probably doesn't care about it. When you ride that way, you probably won't need to tie the horse's mouth shut. You won't need a double bridle. You may, however, have to get used to seeing a wall ahead and having your horse choose to go thru the gate off on the left!

Most of the horse world considers high riding to be getting the horse to do things he would never consider doing on his own. I lean toward thinking 'high riding' is encouraging the horse to do things that make sense to him while I stay out of his way as much as possible. High riding, to me, is about having a conversation with the horse and doing together what you have agreed on. If I'm the only one allowed to speak, it isn't much of a conversation! And if my only tool for communication is the bit or spurs, then I'm practically deaf and mute on horseback.

Sorry for the long rant. I like to think out loud. HF is one of the few places I can think out loud without being shouted down and called names because I don't have a show record and haven't owned 100 horses.


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## horseluvr2524

Very interesting on the sheep herders, thanks for the info. I agree, it is really sad how hard the government makes things for our ranchers. Definitely sounds like you have to love the lifestyle.

If the weather was right and the terrain was pretty (=not desert), I think I'd like to try sheepherding someday, maybe for a couple weeks or a month. Probably would be a voluntary position, as I can't see anyone hiring somebody that short term. :wink:

Zebras are incredibly intelligent, and POWERFUL. Stronger than horses actually. I'd equate a zebras pulling power to probably what a draft horse has. I love them, it's too bad they are so wild, unpredictable, and reactive, otherwise I would go into owning one lol.

I'm considering trying show jumping. I like show jumping because all that matters in the scoring is a clear round and your time. Doesn't matter if the judge likes you, your horse, or the way you ride, because your judge is the timer and it only cares about how fast you got a clear round. Problem is jumping is one of those things that is a big no no to train on your own. I figure I can probably lay the foundation, which is all cavaletti work, and then see where that takes us.

Oh, the reason I brought up show jumping, is because it is one of the few sports where your horse can take part in the decision making. They talk about 'rating the distance' to a fence and making adjustments in your horse's stride... but I wonder if the horse can't be taught how to rate the distance himself?


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## bsms

The approach the Italian & US Cavalry taught and what Littauer taught was that you trained the horse to jump. The rider's goal was to not interfere. That approach fell out of favor as jumping put more emphasis on tight courses and very challenging jumps. One couldn't win without counting strides between the jumps, and horses DO benefit from the rider setting them up for success on very challenging jumps.

The Cavalry obviously could not afford to count steps to a jump, and needed masses of riders of various talent to all be able to go over successfully. Their approach made sense for their goals.

VS Littauer wrote about jumping from the perspective of the recreational rider who is doing it for fun. He also coached Bernie Traurig early on:

*Q: Your philosophy as a horseman?*
A: Imagine you are a horse. Speak (communicate) in a clear, simple language and be able to read and evaluate the horseʼs reactions. Keep the horses friendly, you want them to like you. Get involved with the horse, study horsemanship, become a horseman.

Also: DVDs Available For Sale | Equestrian Coach​I've thought about buying the DVDs even though I don't have anything for Bandit to jump. I keep bouncing back and forth between my very western goal of just riding quietly across the desert and my 'forward system of riding' roots - from Littauer's writings. Very different, yet a lot of my thought (and conflict) lies in trying to reconcile them both.

Statistically, jumping horses is 10-40 times more dangerous than riding them on the flats. But it would be interesting to know if it is that much more dangerous if one uses the approach of teaching the horse to jump, then learning to stay out of his way while doing so. Littauer taught hundreds if not thousands jumping. He said 75% of his total beginning riders could jump 2.5-3 feet in 20 lessons - IF the horse already knew how to jump! And I doubt he had many paralyzed or killed riders, back in the time when NO ONE wore helmets for jumping! Even future presidents:








​ 
Bandit isn't built for success at jumping, but I suspect he cold learn to jump a couple of feet. Just not sure when I'd ever get to use it, even if he did learn...


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## horseluvr2524

I'll admit, it's the adrenaline rush. I will just never forget the huge smile that appeared on my face, without me knowing, when we went over a set of raised cavaletti. It made me so happy. I mean, I thought riding already made me happy, but I never found myself smiling much while riding. But jumping, I was like a kid at Christmas. It STILL does. I put up a plastic wrapped bag of shavings (soft if she hit it, best option at the time) to pop over a few times, and we both had a blast jumping over that stupid thing lol.

I think most riders can jump a couple of feet safely without massive amounts of instruction. But a full course, especially one at 3' and higher, its quite a bit more risky. That's what I'm struggling with. I would love to compete at around 2' to 2.5', but the lowest starting height in show jumping is 3', and they often have jumps in the same course go up to 3'6". It's not something you can casually compete in... which sucks.


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## Alhefner

hehehe... snaffles and neck reigning... The snaffle bit is associated with "direct reign" by just about everyone and the idea of really neck reigning when using one is sort of discounted by most.

I'm not most and Willy recently made it very clear that he is a dedicated neck reign horse regardless of what is on his face or in his mouth! I only use a snaffle on both Barney and Willy.

I was trying to "correct" Willy's tendency to look all around as I rode by keeping my hands "low and wide" with a fairly slack reign but short enough that when Willy turned his head, he would "run into" the pressure of the bit.

All that did was frustrate him to no end!

When I gave up direct reigning almost completely and just used my legs and a SLIGHT BIT of neck pressure with the reigns when needed, I found that Willy calmed right down. He also maintained a fairly straight path no matter ho much "looking around" he was doing. If he started to drift to one side or another, a little leg pressure generally puts him back on track.

Of course, Willy is a 16 year old "been there, done that" horse. Due to his lack of work before I got him, he would rather not go there or do that! He's coming around nicely though as yesterday's ride demonstrated.

As for jumping? I would rather not go there and do that! Willy will jump if he feels he absolutely needs to do so. Barney, when just carousing on his own, will see an opportunity to jump and go out of his way for it sometimes!


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## bsms

I neck rein closer to how a polo player might do it than how most western riders do. I tend to direct rein when we are both relaxed and resort to neck reining when things start to get exciting. Or in preparation for impending future excitement, such as going somewhere that makes Bandit tense. 

It probably comes from all the hard spins and sideways jumps I did with Mia. If the horse moves violently enough, keeping my shoulders above the saddle is tough. One hand resting on the horn can quickly become a brace that prevents my shoulders from going left or right in a violent move.

Now...the truth is that Bandit hasn't offered any of those violent moves in over a year. Maybe closer to 1.5 years. Mia was down to about one violent spin a month, which is what I heard she still does. It just seems to be something not quite right in her head.

Fear is a funny thing. It often makes no sense. But what works best for me when I do get nervous is to prepare to stay on regardless and keep riding. People talk about horses sensing fear. Maybe mine are just used to it? I still have times where everything is going fine and my insides will twist in a knot for a while. So when that happens, I drop one hand to the horn, feet a little forward, heels down...and keep riding. And for whatever reason, my horse doesn't seem to worry about it. Mia didn't either.

I must be one of the few people in the world who have owned independent thinking horses. Everyone says that if the rider tenses up, the horse will. But my horses tense up or relax on their own schedule. There are 5 horses I've ridden extensively enough to KNOW how they responded to my tension, and 5 out of 5 didn't seem to care.

But in seriousness...an old back injury means I tend to ride slightly off balance. My horses all compensate for that. It is just who I am. Maybe they feel the same way about my tension. Like dismounting, it is just something we do. No particular association with it being due to an external cause. Dismounts often mean I noticed we're near the 60 minute mark. And tension in my body, and preparation to stay on regardless, often comes...for no reason the horse can discern. It is just something the guy on top does sometimes, and there is no value in thinking about it. He also leans some. So what? 

*Arguably, my horses are desensitized to my fear* since it strikes often enough and we just keep going. So if I get in my "cutting horse seat"...it means nothing to them.






But back to neck reining...

The Cavalry taught polo more than slack rein trail riding, and they taught to move the hand forward and then firmly to the side. Mia and Bandit both responded better that way, and that style allows me to steer them even if we are galloping (very rare, and NOT smart with Mia in the open around here). It works well next to traffic, or when a dog is at their heels. Just a LITTLE slack in the reins, my hand forward, the reins at least a third of the way up their neck. I get better results like that when my horse is tense than I do with direct reining.



Alhefner said:


> ...I was trying to "correct" Willy's tendency to look all around as I rode by keeping my hands "low and wide" with a fairly slack reign but short enough that when Willy turned his head, he would "run into" the pressure of the bit.
> 
> All that did was frustrate him to no end!
> 
> When I gave up direct reigning almost completely and just used my legs and a SLIGHT BIT of neck pressure with the reigns when needed, I found that Willy calmed right down. He also maintained a fairly straight path no matter ho much "looking around" he was doing. If he started to drift to one side or another, a little leg pressure generally puts him back on track...


I experience the same thing. First, I don't care if my horse does SOME looking. If he 'locks up' on something off to one side, I'll make a point of staring at it too. He seems to NEED to know I've seen it and am evaluating it. Then I'll say, "It's OK" and then briefly direct rein his head more to the front and use legs to keep us moving.

Don't know if it is Arabian blood or me, but I've ceased to care if we trot sideways past something as long as we GO PAST SOMETHING!

I was told once that if I slid my feet forward some it would crate a "fence" on either side of the horse. Or maybe a reassuring hug of the horse. The horse can obviously and easily break thru the fence, so it doesn't trap them...just reassures them that you are there and wish to go forward.

That advice works much better for me that trying to hold them in a frame via the bit. I joke that *the bit is there to hold the far end of the reins*. Some English riders jumped on my case and said I just didn't understand refined contact and how to communicate with my horse via the bit. Maybe they are right. Or maybe there is a world of communication open to someone who doesn't rely on the bit!

I'll say this though: The more I use the bit trying to get a horse past something, the more likely I'll end up in a fight with an agitated horse. I like to use just a LITTLE slack because if things go wrong I do want to be directive. In a sense, the bit is then used to create a boundary: 

_"Don't spin and don't leap forward and race off, and the bit won't get used. But it WILL grab you if you act stupid. If you act sensible, tell me if you are just too afraid to go forward, but keep moving forward if you are not TOO afraid, and the bit won't ever be used. All you will have is my legs guiding you forward and my reins even along your neck."_

And I would much rather use leg to correct drift than use reins. The lessons I took were mixed in value, but there is a lot to be said for "*Seat, legs, reins (if needed)*".


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## bsms

*Frustration!*

Good news: New tack arrived!

Bad news: Stuck inside watching grandkids. Then we'll leave for Scottsdale for 2 days. So no way to TRY the new tack! :evil:








​
Between my sneakers and the rubber pad, it felt like 2 holes lower would be about right. Feels very comfortable standing in the stirrups...on the bloody saddle stand! Won't be any worry about feet slipping thru or losing the stirrups, I think. They are wider than my old ones. Very easy to find and slip my feet in while wearing my old jogging shoes.








​
I was surprised at how light it is. Lighter than my O-ring snaffle. But no way of playing with it until at least Saturday afternoon. Just holding it in my hand, I think it might be easy to understand. But of course, no idea if Bandit's tongue will agree with my hand!


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## bsms

Got home too late to try a ride. I'm going to go back to regular stirrups while trying Bandit in the new bit. I don't think it works well for me to try TWO new things at once. If something is different, which of the two is it?

The second video down on this page is a fun video to watch. "*Video Clip of the Italian Cavalry 1929"*. The Italians taught a strong grip with the knee. It obviously works when done right, but I don't know if I would like to try it. But I loved watching it!

The American Hunter/Jumper Forward Riding System ? EquestrianCoach.com Blog


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## bsms

Just finished listening to this. I don't agree with every comment, but I liked it overall:






In particular, I liked his defense of a western riding position, his comments about teaching a barrel horse that barrel racing is fun and not accidentally punishing the horse, and his comment about getting off a nervous horse if he felt he didn't have sufficient control of the horse to press on. I didn't like his comment about getting "respect" from a horse. Wish he would just say "obedience", which is both more accurate and less personal.

Got a 30 minute ride in on Bandit before church. Ran out of time because I knew I would need to get the grandkids ready. Tried Bandit with the new bit. It puzzled him some.

A week ago, there wasn't a blade of anything green in the arena. Now it is about 75% covered in grass. It is amazing what steady rains do in the desert! So each time he gave me a good stop, I'd give him lots of slack, pat his neck, and he'd pause to eat. When he had a mouthful, I'd bring his head up and we'd walk while he chewed. Then try something else.

Nothing like giving a horse who lives on dry lot a chance to eat to convince him a good stop was worth doing! I'd rate him about the same for neck reining, which is worse than I had hoped for. But OTOH, his direct reining still worked fine. My direct reining for turns involves an opening rein, and it worked the same in this bit as any other. Far too small a sample to draw any conclusions yet. I think he liked the fit and feel, overall. But that often happens on the first ride. It is the third or fourth that will tell me what I need to know.

I had hoped to ride him after church, but I barely got them their lunch before the rains started. I hope I got the buckets far enough under the shelters because it started pouring about 10 minutes later. No way I'll get another ride in today.


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## phantomhorse13

Hopefully you aren't in any of the areas with the bad flooding - some of the pictures on the news have been horrifying.


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## bsms

We haven't had the bad flash floods here, but riding thru the biggest wash near me today, it looked like it may be taking a new channel.

Cowboy's swelling is gone and we got all three horses out today. Since my wife & DIL prefer using the good leather western saddles to the Abetta, I let them use our two good ones while I went Australian. Australian with a solid shank curb.

The horses did great today. Particularly Bandit. He has always been jumpy if things are 'different' - and things were very different today. I think we got 1.5 inches of rain yesterday afternoon, in a place which gets 15 inches a year...so about 10% of our annual rainfall in an hour yesterday. There was plenty of mud on the trails, the trails had a lot of erosion, and the wash looks like a section 100 yards long has swapped from the main wash to a minor one that was running parallel - but the little parallel one is now the main channel, if that makes sense. Soft sand in piles, debris, etc.

And Bandit was largely unconcerned. When we needed to push through some interlocking branches of two small trees, he just pushed his way through. That is quite an accomplishment for a horse who used to be genuinely claustrophobic! He worked when he needed to work, but his back stayed relaxed. He was alert and looking around without being worried or nervous. We often pushed 50-100 yards ahead of the others and had to go back to find them. Bandit was fine with all of it. 

I think the only time I had the slack out of the reins was when we were off trail and I spotted some hidden cactus near his feet close in. I direct reined for that because I needed his feet to move NOW to avoid cactus he had missed. There were a few times neck reining where the slack was gone. But I mostly had slack, and left my fingers loose so that if he needed to pull the reins through my fingers to extend his head, he could. If I needed to neck rein, I'd squeeze my fingers to grip the reins and move my hand. Then let the reins go loose again.

The new bit is working well. He acts very relaxed and comfortable. He understands what is going on. I also trust him enough now to let him make a lot of decisions, and he knows enough about what I expect to make ones I agree with. It makes for a very relaxing ride.

They talk about "Forward, calm and straight" as being the foundation of a horse's training. I don't care about "straight', not in the dressage sense of the word. Bandit is now "forward and calm", but I think "confidently forward" expresses it better. *He goes forward easily because he is confident he can handle anything that is likely to come up*, and can get help from me if it is bigger than he feels comfortable handling on his own.

A horse who is unafraid and confident goes forward like a well-greased machine. No stickiness or hesitations. *I don't have to ride defensively because I have no need to defend myself. Why? Because HE has no need to defend himself*. It has taken 2 years to get there, and we could both backslide some in the future. But fundamentally, Bandit is now a relaxed and confident horse. *Relaxed because he is confident*.

That is what all horses should be trained to be - forward because they are confident and enjoying themselves, not because they will be "kicked and whacked" if they are not! I find it terribly sad that lessons are often designed in a way that teaches people to kick and whack instead of build the horse's confidence. We give bad instruction to beginners, and then they practice bad horsemanship for years.

Note on Cowboy: After a few weeks of separate feeding, there are no longer rolls of fat to hold the cinch in place. He didn't have dimples on his butt today. I could see muscle on his hind legs. Another 50 lbs, and he's going to be a solid looking little horse! 

Bandit and I did get far enough ahead that we sometimes had to backtrack and find what happened to the others. On this occasion, the reason for the delay was obvious... Nothing says "We are pals" to a horse like food!

:cheers:​ 









Note: Bandit is 9 years old, so still relatively young. Trooper is 18, and Cowboy may be past 20. Bandit rarely eats while riding because he likes being the Great Leader of the Herd. He is more forward than the others in part because it is more "Old Hat" to the older horses. I'm not sure THEY view Bandit as "_The Great Leader of the Herd_"...but if Bandit does, it is OK by them. They would be content to simply eat their way across the desert...:wink:​


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## phantomhorse13

bsms said:


> They talk about "Forward, calm and straight" as being the foundation of a horse's training. I don't care about "straight', not in the dressage sense of the word.


Actually you do, at least in the way it was explained to me once upon a time. "Straight" doesn't so much mean the horse is traveling in a literal straight line, more it means there is a direct connection from the horse's body to the rider. This concept means you can request where and how the body goes.. and being able to ask Bandit to move a specific leg is mighty handy when you need to avoid the cactus!


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## bsms

"Straight", in the dressage sense, means the hind legs follow the same track as the front legs. Even in turns. A horse who turns like that remains vertically straight up & down, so easy to ride - but it is not an efficient way to turn. 



> A horse is straight when its hind feet travel in the same path the front feet take. Within the above requirement, the horse must also have its spinal column and neck bent exactly on the form of the line being ridden. The horse can be (and must be) straight even while riding on a circle, or bent lines. - The Dressage Formula, Erik F Hebermann


That definition is arguably impossible for the horse to perform. Philippe Karl uses pictures taken from above of a properly ridden dressage horse, ridden by an expert, to show it simply doesn't occur. This came from a website, but I think it originally came from some of the same photos Karl used:








​ 
However, I've tried it on all fours on the ground, and trying to make my knees follow the same track as my hands would make me very easy to ride and stay on. It just doesn't allow me to turn quickly or easily. And since I value efficiency and speed over my ability to stay on...I don't value it much.

The track of the hind leg can follow the track of the front one, but it is a somewhat specialized movement the horse learns. On their own, horses don't value "straight" either.

This is part of a larger photo, placed here cropped under fair use:










Other good pictures of barrel racing at the owner's website:

2013 WNFR: Wrangler National Finals Rodeo Qualifiers: Barrel Racing ? Matt Cohen Photo​ 
That is how I turn as well if I am on all fours and trying to turn efficiently. I keep forward thrust from my legs and use my arms to shove my shoulders sideways.

That is also why Mia could do a 180 on a 6 foot wide trail with violent speed, even without "collecting" first. Horses KNOW turning. They can turn out from under me if I'm not careful! My goal in riding is not to improve the unridden horse's motion, but to interfere as little as possible with it. And I'll never entirely succeed.


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## gottatrot

I was going to say something similar to what Phantomhorse said, but agree that my definition of "straight" is not exactly the dressage definition. 

What I mean by straight is that the horse follows the head with their body, in the degree of bend that you ask for. So if you ask for the horse to do a large, gradual turn because looking ahead you see a large log is on your path and you want to go around it, they only turn that much. 
But if you ask them to do a smaller, tighter circle they do that as well, following their head with their body (but I allow the hind legs to go off the exact track of the front ones if this is more efficient for the horse). 

Versus the horses we've experienced that turn their neck to one side but don't follow the degree of bend asked for, so keep going straighter forward with their head and neck canted off to one side. That is what I call "not straight." 
Or the horse that doesn't bend the neck OR turn with the body, which is too straight and inflexible. Some horses achieve the turn just using a high and fast leg action, but I prefer they learn to both bend and follow the bend, for safety and I believe better body mechanics for the horse.


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## bsms

I like a horse to follow its head. Years ago, visiting a place in southern Idaho, I had a horse bolt. I got his head pulled clear to my knee and he kept going right on 'straight'. Happily, an old cowboy had told me that if a horse does that, kick his shoulder as hard as you can. Move the shoulder and the horse WILL turn. So I tried it and we got turned a little before the barbed wire fence that was waiting for us.

That is one of the reasons I dislike the Clinton Anderson super-flex training, or any training that regularly requires the horse to go where it is not looking. Bandit was trained by a CA fan and has more flex in his neck than I would like. Or maybe it is just "him", something genetic, something he was born inclined to do.

A good thing about going off-trail and dodging vegetation, cactus or brush or anything else, is it makes sense to the horse. Cues that help them make decisions (or that suggest human decisions to them that work out well) are then helpful to the horse, so he wants to do them. 

I don't think a horse understands "do a 20m circle with your hind feet falling in the same path as the front feet". They can be taught to do it, but teaching them things that are stupid (to the horse) conveys the idea that the rider isn't very bright, or fair, or reasonable. Punishing them - I mean, "correcting" - with a whip may make obedience the lesser of two evils, but it still doesn't convey "_the person on my back is smart and asks me to do things that are good and helpful to me_".

I've been told I'm wrong, that horses are not smart enough to think that way, and all they care about is the moment-by-moment release of pressure. But horses can travel several miles to water, which suggests they can learn to do things where the reward is an hour away.

Riding is "_How do I stay on and get the horse to do what I want?_" Horsemanship is "_How do I stay on and get the horse to want what I want?_" The first is easy: Kick and Whack hard enough the horse will be afraid of doing anything other than what you want. The second is a lifelong challenge with many setbacks and no easy answers. The second often cannot be done on a moment by moment basis, but horses are herd animals. They understand doing things because overall it is better to get along than to be on your own. They understand it so well that they can be beaten or whipped and still remain pretty willing animals.

But shouldn't we _*TRY*_ to motivate them, rather than always reach for a whip?

If the structure of a "lesson barn" is such that horses need to be whipped to stay motivated, and new riders learn early on to carry a whip and be willing to whack - and whack hard, light whacks are not helpful! - _then maybe the standard lesson structure is contrary to teaching good horsemanship_? 

I think there are times a good horseman may need to use a whip, but so much of the standard approach to riding is so adversarial! I'm so tired of hearing lifelong riders tell me horses spend their lives trying to claw their way to the top, to figure out ways of defeating us!

I've been told, "_Never end on a bad note!_" But I've ended there more than once, and never had a problem the next day. It makes sense to me to sometimes say, "_You're feeling stressed and miserable. So am I. Sure wish we hadn't reached this point. Let's call it quits and tomorrow will be a new day!_" And when I've done that, I've never had a horse behave worse the next day. If anything, they seem intent on proving that tomorrow IS a new day, and that they can figure it out with me now that we are both refreshed!

There are some highly experienced owners and riders who I love listening to! But after 9+ years, I've concluded there are a lot of highly experienced owners and riders who are incredibly stupid and blind. They have to be, to have gone 40+ years around hundreds of horses and still think horses are conniving animals seeking to defeat their riders and take control of the world.

Bandit is proof I don't have all the answers. If I had started riding 50 years ago, I wouldn't have all the answers. I've had a lifetime of experience around thousands of humans, but I couldn't always motivate my subordinates in the military. But shouldn't we TRY? 

< / rant >​


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## bsms

BTW - if Bandit isn't following his nose, and there isn't a good reason why he shouldn't be following his nose, then I instinctively revert to what the old cowboy told me and boot his shoulder. OORRRR, since it is sometimes me, I'll weight my opposite leg to pull his body - or perhaps more accurately, to stop ruining HIS balance with MY imbalance!

I've read about using the inside or outside rein to support a horse's shoulder, but that honestly sounds like hogwash to me. Why would I use tension on the rein against his NECK or MOUTH to support his shoulder, when I have a foot just inches away?

And of course, he sometimes is just looking somewhere else, and that is often fine.


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## bsms

This is kind of a response to egrogan's thread & post:



egrogan said:


> Yep, I hope I didn't give the impression that I equate a horse's quality with the amount the horse cost...
> 
> That said, in my next horse, I want to find something with good conformation, a good mind, more athleticism than Izzy, and a solid start to training...And I can completely respect that people who care about show bloodlines and having that "ring look" will laugh at that budget, as that has nothing to do with my end goals.


http://www.horseforum.com/member-journals/my-mare-star-trail-today-can-431322/page50/#post10110017

Mia's sire was Gazarr++:



> *Gazarr++*
> 
> According to his owners, Gazarr was the first of his type of breeding to make it to their area. He was a dominant breeding stallion who sired type, size (like your boy at almost 16hh - Esquire seems to be doing the same
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ) and especially correctness on his foals which were about 90% bays, the rest Grays & a few colored foals. He sired over 250 Purebred foals (and is on the AHW's leading sire list). He also sired 63 Part-bred foals.
> 
> According to his owner, Gazarr has sired 9 National Champions, with grand-get that have been winning & several that are National Champions, then the great grand-get such as Esquire as a US TT winner along with many other great-grand-get doing as well!
> 
> Gazarr's daughter Revelrie (out of the Cross-U-Bar bred mare NA Nusiata & Esquire's grand-dam) not only was a Two time Scottsdale Top Ten Mare (1983 & 1986) She also was Region 1 Top 5 mare, a Halter Champion Mare & Jr. Champion filly. Revelrie's full brother, Revelation+ was a Canadian National finalist in 1983, a US National Finalist 1982, received his Legion of Honor, Region 1 Top 5 Stallion 1982, Region 4 Top 5 Stallion 1979, Pacific Slope Top 5 Stallion 1979 & 1982, English Pleasure Champion, Blue Western Pleasure with 19 Halter Championships.
> 
> Most likely, Gazarr's most noted son Zarr Hassan +/ (out of Belleza) was 1982 Canadian National Champion Stallion, 1982 US National Reserve Champion Stallion, US Top Ten Stallion 1980, 1982, 1983, Canadian Top 10 Stallion 1981 & 1982, Received his Legion of Supreme Honor, Region 1 Champion Stallion 1982, Region 2 Top 5 Stallion 1980, Pacific Slope Top 5 1980, and also had 17 Halter Championships. - post #6, Gazarr++ - The Crabbet and CMK Breeder's Forum - A Black Horse Community


Her dam was heavy on Russian racing lines. If I could take what I know now, and go back in time 9 years and apply it to her fresh, I think I could get her to being a solid trail horse. Too tall for my tastes at 15.3, but I think she would have made a solid citizen. But I didn't know then what I know now, and what I know now is based on what we learned together.

Good lines, but Lilly was probably a better all-around horse - lots of spunk but a very good mind. 

Bandit is rougher in almost every way. Big noggin, not a real sensitive type of fellow, and I worry about what was done when he was racing long distances at speed while using his left leg at a 40 degree angle. But he is sensible. I didn't realize it at first because this area is so different from what he was used to, and he seemed "hot" because going fast was all he knew. But he has a good mind, learns quickly, plans on staying alive with or without me, stays aware of his surroundings...I swapped $1200 Mia (which goes to show how prices can drop if the horse doesn't get good training regardless of bloodlines) for scrubby looking Bandit...but Bandit is the better all-around horse.

I would love to train him for low-level endurance work, but I doubt MY body will hold up to it. If, 5 years from now, we COULD do even one event, that would be one of those life-long goals accomplished!

Izzy has taught egrogan tons about horses - just as Mia taught me so much. Mia is now a broodmare, and Izzy may not take egrogan into the world of endurance...but they give so much! And I'll admit, if I had SEEN Bandit before swapping, I might not have swapped. When one looks at them side by side:











*YEGADS! Let's face it, Bandit looks like a scrubby reject!*​ 
But between his injury and my reluctance to ride alone, he's gone 6-7 weeks without a solo ride. Rode him a little solo today. Apart from worrying about Trooper racing around screaming, Bandit was doing fine. When he looked too much toward Trooper, I'd ask for a trot. We'd trot until he didn't feel like trotting - not long on pavement - and then walk. We didn't go far. It has been so long since we went out solo that *I'm* not fully comfortable, either. But he was utterly sane. Aware, but not worried.

I think he is an ugly horse to look at, but he rides much better than he looks!

BTW - about a week ago, when I took Bandit out into the arena to get him ready, there wasn't even a WEED for him to nibble on. Brown everywhere. Today, at end of ride:








​
No, he didn't even break a sweat today - and he sweats when nervous. He's quite a bit heavier than in the top photo. He was estimated at 790 by the vet when he first arrived, but he's...well, he eats more here. And it shows. 

But he isn't much to look at! 

Of course, neither am I. :cheers:


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## phantomhorse13

bsms said:


> Mia's sire was Gazarr++:
> 
> Her dam was heavy on Russian racing lines.
> 
> And I'll admit, if I had SEEN Bandit before swapping, I might not have swapped. When one looks at them side by side:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​




If there is one thing I have learned doing endurance, it's that pedigree and looks are not everything.. and in some cases, they aren't anything!

Here is Phin (current horse, in the front) and Dream (retired due to injury, behind). Not the best photo ever for a confo comparison, but one of the few I have of them both standing side by side:










Dream is _regally_ bred in terms of racing bloodlines (she is by Sam Tiki out of a *Wiking daughter - pedigree is here). She should have been one of the best racehorses around.. except oops, she is a confo train wreck who didn't want to run. She was sold to the guy I started riding for sight-unseen.. and after her arrival he realized they had sent pictures of her half sister by mistake (or maybe not!).. surprise. She is super long backed, build downhill, low-set ewe neck, and one hock is bigger than the other from an injury as a yearling - I can't imagine anybody picking her as a potential endurance horse. But she was amazing endurance horse: 2200 miles with a 90% completion rate (and of her 6 non-finishes, 1 was a shoeing issue, 1 was an abscess and 4 were lyme-related rider options), six best conditions, and three hundreds. And over 90% of her finishes were top 10s. She never had issues with saddle fit or girths or electrolytes.. she just went down the trail smooth as glass and effortlessly.

Dream did well despite her confo. Since her forced retirement, I have had countless people ask why I didn't breed her. My answer was always what if the resulting baby, no matter how carefully I picked a stallion, came out looking just like her, but without her amazing brain and heart?

Phin, on the other hand, is a model of lovely conformation, giving credit to his pedigree full of athletes. He was bred by a big-name CMK breeder. His sire has won tons of stuff in sporthorse and dressage events. Phin, however, is like riding a pogo stick.. I don't think I could sit his trot if my life depended on it. While he has come a long way in learning how to trot forward versus up, he is never going to be comfortable or have an effortless 12 mph trot. I have had issues with saddle fit, girths, and am still working on his electrolyte protocol.

What is that saying.. beauty is as beauty does? But [email protected] he is cute in pictures! :wink:
​


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## bsms

My Mom always told me beauty is as beauty does...maybe because I'm not much to look at?

Rode Bandit Aussie-style today since all three horses were out. My DIL used the caged stirrups on my western saddle on Cowboy, and loved them. She said they were "super comfy". 

Bandit led the whole way today, including more time than normal in the neighborhood. I want him to get fully comfortable with paved roads surrounded by human-made equine mind-torture devices.

But I tried something I hadn't tried with him in the open for 6+ months - cantering.​ 
The first time, we cantered away for 100 yards and he slowed when I said "Easy". We then spent some time in the washes, and I trotted him and cantered in it once - our first time trying a canter in the wash. Coming back on the ATV dirt trail/road, I cantered him several more times. 

By the final time, he was getting harder to slow. I think he had forgotten cantering, and by the end he was remembering it as FUN. So I bumped the reins a couple of times before a patch of rocks, he wasn't interested in slowing, so I gave him slack and we went over the rock patch and on to another clear spot.

I'm glad it was a curb bit. It would have been a fight in a snaffle. With the curb, I could continue using one hand. And it didn't matter what he did with his head. He could move it up, stretch his nose out, tuck it down, and I could move my hand and just keep 'bump, bump, bump'. After 12-15 nagging bumps, none of them harsh, he slowed - and the bumps went away.

We had to make a lot of trips back to rejoin the others. Little Cowboy is probably around 20 years old and he did NOT feel like racing today! Neither did Trooper. So the two of them hung back, and we'd go ahead and then turn around to get them.

But it was fun. I hadn't cantered Australian in ages, and the saddle felt harder to get in the groove. Maybe I just wasn't used to it. It brought home today what I realized a little while ago - there is NO KNEE SUPPORT with my Aussie saddle. The western saddle with sheepskin offers far more support and grip for my thighs. The first canter felt like "What the hell?" Bandit's canter is smooth, though, and easier to ride than his trot.

He was obviously getting excited about it by the end. I was worried that Trooper and Cowboy would get wound up, and their riders were not interested...but they didn't care, and cantering Bandit away gives Bandit SOME incentive to slow down. Eventually.

He so obviously enjoyed it that I now have a new and good motivation tool. "_Do what I ask for a little while, and then we can go fast for a little while._" I'm going to need to work with him on the whole "*GO and SLOW*" thing. But he doesn't lose his mind with excitement, and I think the solid curb bit is working well for him. He doesn't fuss at all, understands it well, and I can steer and insist on slowing while riding one-handed.

He did a little roaming head thing. We'd be cantering down the trail with him flexing his head around. I decided to borrow a lesson from Halla and not worry about it. In a snaffle, trying to correct it, I think I'd have made him mad. As it was, I ignored it and it didn't do us any harm. He stayed on the trail - not "dressage straight", certainly, but not unbalanced - and he was just plain happy. So I was happy too!

One good thing about his background: He had no trouble cantering on varying terrain. We even briefly went off trail. That...got me nervous...a "Canter Too Far" for me, at least. LOTS of cactus out there!

When we got back to paved road, he was still full of beans so we trotted a lot. Forward, turn around to gather the others, forward. He was happy, though. Happy without going stupid. 

Over 9 years of riding, and it was the first time I was cantering AND feeling comfortable on a horse in the open. Not afraid. Not tense and worried he would blow his mind. There wasn't a flicker of stumble in him. I'm pretty sure he can safely canter across just about anything out there - unlike Mia.

BTW - his feet without shoes are doing much better now than before I had him shod. His 6 weeks in shoes has done wonders for his bars. We were cantering today on sections where he used to stumble when walking, so his feet MUST be better. One option might be to have his front feet shod 6 weeks out of every 4-6 months. 

My daughter and I talked about trying to teach Trooper and Bandit to do a low level endurance event someday. With the possible exception of Bandit, none of us would care where we placed. She asked Trooper to trot a quarter mile today (on pavement), the first time since her fall nearly a year ago.

Maybe. Maybe someday. I'd be thrilled, though, to get Bandit to where we could canter off trail and be cantering regularly. I think the trails will give him enough incentive to slow that we can work on it.

BTW - Cowboy was out of the frame, but here are Trooper and Bandit at end of ride. I did wet down Bandit's back, but the wet spots were already wet. I just rinsed him some to get the salt off. And 10 days ago, there wasn't even a green WEED in the arena!


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## bsms

Remembered I had given a camera to my youngest and asked her for pictures. Good news - she took about 30. Bad news - most were far enough away that my T-shirt is a white dot in the distance!

However, she & Trooper did trot down the street we live on along with Bandit and I, while Cowboy continued his leisurely stroll with my DIL. So we turned around to join with Cowboy, and this picture came when Bandit and I were turning around yet again. *My DIL looks good on little Cowboy. 13.0 hands and 5'0" are a good match. She just looks like she belongs there! :smile:*

Me? I notice two things. One, when my heels go down, my toes go out. I think that is because heels firmly down creates pressure on the stirrup, and EVEN pressure across my foot only happens if my toe turns out. This is even more true in the 4-bar Australian stirrups. That is OK by me. It is what happens if I focus on balance while using this tack. It may happen western...don't know. Can't say as I look at my feet unless I'm relaxed, and I relax if my horse is relaxed, and Bandit did enough cantering today that _*.I.*_ at least wasn't totally relaxed!

But I also see how Bandit and I have worked out our neck reining cues, which is not much like the draped rein approach often seen in western riding!








​ 


> *CUE*
> 
> noun
> 1. (in the theatre, films, music, etc) anything spoken or done that serves as a signal to an actor, musician, etc, to follow with specific lines or action
> 
> 2. a signal or reminder to do something
> 
> 3. (psychol) the part of any sensory pattern that is identified as the signal for a response


There is currently a thread on how to cue a horse for a turn in dressage. I don't do dressage and haven't commented. However, I was tempted to say the correct cue is whatever the horse was taught.

Comments were made on the thread that any backward pull would cause the shoulder to collapse, although how one collapses the shoulder of a horse by a small movement of a piece of metal in their mouth isn't very obvious to me! Still, I think the point valid:

We use cues. The correct cue is whatever the horse has been taught and understands, in terms of knowing what to do (what lines to say, so to speak) after receiving "the cue".

It doesn't matter if I have interpreted the Cavalry's manual on neck reining correctly or not. What matters is that I taught it to Bandit, I taught it the way I wanted to do it, and have been very consistent in applying it. It means only one thing and it means the same thing each time. Thus, regardless of what effects it has, it is very easy for Bandit to understand and perform.

And I understand that a horse who wasn't taught my way would need to be taught my way before I could expect him to do it my way.

So I moved the reins forward with a little slack, and then over hard to the left to cue a hard left turn. That means the rein on the right is tight against his neck about halfway up his neck. Some people say the tight rein pulling back (as it must) on the right side will convince him to turn right instead of left.

But it is JUST a cue. When you feel X, do Y. Same cue, same meaning, not used for anything else, always the same. And thus Bandit accepts the totality of the cue, and is turning LEFT, as asked, ears forward, head and neck turned left (NOT right), ears forward, concentrating on turning left with his feet - *it's a CUE, not a CONTROL!* I'm saying the correct thing to do at this time in the play is to turn firmly left, and he is. Simple as that!

Right or wrong, we understand it. And any cue, IMHO, needs to be taught to a horse. If you ride a new horse, check it out. If it understands the cues you want, great. If not, use the cues it knows or teach it new ones. Don't assume, and don't overthink them.

A cue REQUESTS the horse take some action. A cue goes to the brain, the brain interprets, and tells the body what to do. Cues are not handed down from the Lord, written in stone by His finger, nor are they genetic and known without training. If you and your horse are speaking the same language, and understand the same set of cues, it is fine. Just remember a strange horse might NOT understand that language...

BTW - I'm riding with one hand on the reins. It is just that my other hand remains very close by. It feels unbalanced to me to have one hand on my thigh, nor do I know why I would want it there.

PS - All that time doing it the same way also meant I knew what to expect and he knew what to perform when we were cantering today. All the twisting and turning among the cactus meant we were both singing from the same sheet of music regardless of speed, body position, etc.


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> Over 9 years of riding, and it was the first time I was cantering AND feeling comfortable on a horse in the open. Not afraid. Not tense and worried he would blow his mind. There wasn't a flicker of stumble in him. I'm pretty sure he can safely canter across just about anything out there - unlike Mia.


That sounds like fun!

I agree about the cues.
Amore has taught me that a cue is just a cue, not a control. Today on our ride she responded lightly to a gentle tug on her lead line...until she got nervous on the beach and then the cues she knows and responds to normally on the lead had her throwing her head up and shaking it. Meanwhile, Halla was responding to neck reining and seat aids, going every which way I asked. She was following suggestions, making guesses about things I've never officially taught her to do, such as one handed cues which I rarely use. My guess is that many horses out there have figured out what cues mean on their own even with rather inept trainers.

It's so dependent on the mentality of the horse. 
I never used anything more than a gentle snaffle on Amore, because of the type of horse she is. Halla is such a thinker and the nuances of different bits can help the ride a lot. Amore is not a thinker, and she'll either respond lightly to the gentlest bit or sidepull, or else she'll have totally lost it and there's nothing you can do. You could put the most severe bit in her mouth and she would still run through it if she was in that mental state. This was obvious to me even without trying it.

It would make some anxious to think they did not control a horse. I have no control over Amore. Her mental state controls everything. She either has it, or doesn't. On occasion, she loses it. But we've come to no harm so far. I have no control over Halla either. She just chooses to work with me. But makes no bones about letting me know on occasion that this is her choice, and it could be taken away if necessary.


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## bsms

I was going to post this on the over 50 thread, but it turned into too much of a rant:

I wear a helmet about 98% of the time. I wouldn't turn down a chance to ride because I didn't have it, but I feel better wearing it. I do lots of riding on pavement and around rocks...and one's head could land on the only rock within 20 miles regardless. Only one person made fun of me, back when I owned Mia.

"_You afraid of your horse?_" a guy yelled out at me. "_Yeah_," I replied, "_And so would you if you rode her more than once!_"

One of the reasons I get tense about cantering is that I watched Mia fall on her side, multiple times, cantering/galloping on dry level ground without a rider. She didn't seem to understand how to move outside of a corral, and this being Arizona, she might have had no experience moving outside a corral without a rider! 

Can't blame her for not knowing what she had no way to know. Her new owner has let her roam with a herd on thousands of acres. She probably has much better balance now.

Regardless, I'll probably continue using a helmet 98% of the time. But I also don't like it when people lecture others who don't wear one. I have no problem, if asked, telling someone "_I wear a helmet because I'm old and want to get older._" But I'll never go up to someone and tell them they are stupid if they don't wear one! I've seen that done.

On the flip side, I don't think riding needs to be as dangerous as many people claim it is. I know too many people who rode in rough country for 50+ years without hurting their head in any way. I think a lot of falls are due to rider error.

I often ride defensively, with my center of gravity behind my stirrups. VS Littauer and Harry Chamberlin, my favorite writers on riding, considered that a gross sin. I think it is good riding on a horse who may throw it in reverse without asking, or spin, or jump sideways, or bolt - all of which I did too many times as a beginning rider. 

A lot of books and a lot of instructional videos say to always ride with a vertical line from ear to hip to heel. Once I decided my 16" slick seat saddle was too large, one of the things I tried was a "seat shrinker" - padded leather that goes on the cantle. It reduced my seat from about 16.5" to maybe 14". It automatically resulted in my heel being directly under my hip, and it felt good...until Bandit threw on the brakes without asking me. Between his neck and the saddle horn, I didn't come off. But if he had spun around tight instead of just stopping, I'd have gone off _face first over his shoulder_! Not sure a helmet would help much if I land on my nose!

The Cavalry Manual would say my longitudinal base of support was insufficient for aggressive maneuvers - and they would be right. My 5'0" DIL sometimes uses the seat shrinker now and likes it. But it is dangerous for me. If I had to choose between a helmet and a defensive position, I'd leave the helmet behind. Fortunately, I don't have to choose. But then, I also don't ride for 12+ hours in the desert. And my horses don't have the experience and underlying sensibility that can come with a lot of 12+ hours days. 

But I get real tired of hearing that cowboys are stupid for not wearing helmets. My family are the only ones around here to trail ride in helmets. And I just know too many people who rode some tough horses over some very tough terrain for many decades without a head injury. Often without ANY injury.

Too many falls are rooted in bad position or from pushing a horse to do something the horse has not been prepared to do. Most of the danger I've been in while riding has come from the latter, and I think far too many people just assume a horse understands something. If the horse doesn't rear or buck, then push him on! My biggest problem with Mia was pushing her too fast and not laying a solid foundation before going on the the next step.

Bandit & Cantering: It is nerve-racking to canter a horse in the open who isn't willing to stop. But a horse who never canters can easily lose his mind with excitement when he finally gets to canter. Thus I need to accept some risk and some challenges so cantering in the open can be fun without being mind-blowing. So yes, a rider needs to accept some risks to make progress with a horse.

Where to draw that line is part of the lifelong challenge of horsemanship. I don't know. I'll never know for certain, at least not until it is past and I can see the results. I'm not the sort to "send him to the trainer" to get him past the hump. We'll have to figure it out, right or wrong, between us. And I'll feel free to use things like sheepskin, or helmets, or a curb bit, or anything else that I think might give me an edge if we push too far too fast. If that is cowardice, sign me up as a Master Coward!

But I've ridden Cowboy for hours in the desert with my cowboy hat on and not felt a flicker of fear. *Let folks make their own judgment, unless they are kids or too inexperienced to assess the risk on their own*.


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## egrogan

I don't know, I have a real problem with the "let people make their own decision" argument because ultimately the fallout from a TBI is not just on the person who made that decision. It's on their friends and family who have to rearrange their lives to care for them, and on the universal "us" if the person does not have health insurance or does not maintain the job that provided the health insurance. From a recent study at Northwestern:


> For the average adult with brain injury, the unemployment rate two years after diagnosis is 60 percent, compared to the national unemployment average of 5.1 percent. Complicating matters is the high cost of treatment. The lifetime costs of a patient’s treatment for a traumatic brain injury are estimated to run from $85,000 to $3 million.


Of course a helmet is not going to prevent all possible horse related injuries, but it's such a simple thing to do, what are the reasonable arguments against it? Outside of "it's hot" or "it looks dumb" which are arguments I truly don't even want to hear. I just don't get it.

I agree with you that many injuries can probably be traced to poor preparation of both horse and rider, but accidents do still happen. I still carry that sort of primal, irrational fear from when Izzy went to her knees after tripping over rocks and I came off over her neck, landing square on my face and cracking my nose. My helmet didn't help me with the initial impact or knocking the wind out of myself. But I'd still rather have had that fall _with _a helmet on than without, because while black eyes from a broken nose was unsightly and annoying, if I had fallen slightly differently and hit my head on that rock instead, a TBI would forever and completely alter my life. For better or worse, the only reason any employer is willing to pay me is to use that brain :wink: I suppose I'm risking that any time I walk outside or get in the car, but when I'm intentionally engaging in an activity with the potential of a fall from some height at speed, I guess I will take the insurance that's available to me rather than not.

PS- I know arguments about issues like this will never change anyone's mind.


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## bsms

egrogan said:


> ...Of course a helmet is not going to prevent all possible horse related injuries, but it's such a simple thing to do, what are the reasonable arguments against it? Outside of "it's hot" or "it looks dumb" which are arguments I truly don't even want to hear. I just don't get it....


I'll give you my opinion. I wear a helmet almost always, but don't consider them very important. It is a long read, but you are asking an interesting and honest question. My answer may not be yours, but I'll be content if we can understand each other. And since I wear a helmet habitually, I think I understand where you are coming from...so...

Helmets are a type of safety equipment. They are a specialized piece that only function when someone falls and hits their head hard. There are lots of pieces of safety equipment one can use. 

I like sheepskin. I shaved mine down in the area where I sit, down to about 1/2" instead of 1", and may try to shave it down lower. 1/4" would be about perfect. It makes it much easier to feel the horse's movement and learn to move with the horse, IMHO. When a horse slams on the brakes or stumbles, it makes it easy - as in effortless - to stay steady in the saddle. Yet most ignore this safety device that I rate higher than a helmet. It doesn't feel right. It doesn't look good. Just never tried it. I can stay on without it. Etc, etc.

A bucking strap can help. I had one for some years. Only used it once. When my oldest daughter managed to fall off Trooper 7-8 years ago - in spite of Trooper's best efforts to stay under her - I got on Trooper. And as soon as my rump hit the saddle, he started bucking and spinning. Happily, it was an Aussie saddle with a bucking strap. Trooper expected to be punished for his failure to keep his rider on, and he was defending himself. With enormous help from the bucking strap, I stayed on and eventually got him settled. The D-rings in the front were twisted, but they held. Yet how many use a bucking strap? I don't any more.

Body protectors are another one. Most western riders, when they fall, land on their back. Land spine first on a rock and you may be crippled for life. Yet almost no one uses them. They are hot, uncomfortable, etc.

The rancher I've known for 40 years rode Trooper's sire an estimated 25-30,000 miles. And that was just one horse. His favorite horse, but he's certainly ridden 50,000+ miles. Since his great-grandfather bought his first horse around 1880, he and his family have ridden their entire lives - and no one has ever had a significant head injury. Pushing 150 years of riding, in rough country, and a few broken arms, ribs, etc. Plenty of bruises. But zero head injuries. So...why would he want to wear a helmet?

He hires herders who don't know how to ride. They learn on the job, riding in rough country. And none of his herders has ever spent the night in a hospital due to a riding injury. Only one has ever been taken to a doctor, and since there were no bones broken, he was wrapped up and discharged. Went back to work the next day. About 25 years of hiring people who don't know how to ride, putting them on horseback, and having them ride many thousands of miles - with zero broken bones and no head injuries to date.

*So...how dangerous is riding?*

Seems to me that if you are not trying to push a horse or yourself to near your maximums, and you use a fundamentally defensive riding position (think Old West Cowboy)...it is pretty safe. Pushing Mia until she exploded was unsafe. Riding Bandit was somewhat dangerous until he learned he could tell me he was afraid and I would take care of him. He might still fall. Riding two days ago, I got the distinct feeling he was about to try jumping up a vertical 4 foot bank to leave the wash. Not sure why I got that feeling. Just...something. I turned him away ASAP! He's not ready for a 4' jump. I'm not ready for a 4' jump. And the bank WOULD have given way under his weight regardless.

So yes, there is still risk involved. But I think the evidence supports the idea that riding horses is pretty safe if you work with the horse and don't try to make him do scary things.

As for the cost...

I think the biggest one is *no perceived benefit*. I know a number of people who rode 30-50+ years without helmets, their family and friends rode without them, and none of them have ever known anyone who hurt their head. I make a point of asking people. Again and again, the answer I get is "No one."

It comes back, perhaps, to the difference between riding defensively and riding for max performance. Back to this:

""_It automatically resulted in my heel being directly under my hip, and it felt good...until Bandit threw on the brakes without asking me. Between his neck and the saddle horn, I didn't come off. But if he had spun around tight instead of just stopping, I'd have gone off face first over his shoulder!_

Many people are taught defensive riding is BAD riding. Ear! Shoulder! Hip! Heel! All in a vertical line! Always! Anyone who doesn't do that is some idiot yahoo cowboy who can't ride worth squat!

This is Larry Trocha's idea of a good defensive riding position - one that will keep you in the saddle when cutting or reining:








​
This is from a painting done in the early 1800s in England:








​
Functionally, they are almost identical. Both have been criticized as a "chair seat" and bad riding. In both cases, though, the horse can stumble or balk or shy, and the rider will just be driven deeper into the saddle and stirrups.

VS Littauer taught two ideas judged good riding:

1 - Are you in fluid balance with your horse?

2 - Can you give the cues your sport requires?

I would make those rules 2 & 3, subordinate to my #1:

1 - *If your horse does the unexpected, will your position make it easier to stay on?*​ 
That comes from learning riding on Mia, and working to get Bandit largely past his spooking stage. But to a certain extent, I want to ALWAYS ride defensively. I don't want my staying on to depend on my horse always doing what I expect him to do. And I cannot afford to fall. Going face first into prickly pear is just not an option I'm willing to consider.

If I am killed on a horse, and I may be, it will mostly likely be my horse rolling over me when the ground gives way beneath us.

Second point concerning costs:

Where I live, wearing a helmet for an hour is OK. Maybe 2. I have no desire to wear one longer than that. It is way too hot. It feels like my brain is being baked and the sweat running down into my eyes and glasses is a safety hazard of its own. Lack of water limits most of my riding to 3 hours. But on longer rides, I don't wear a helmet. I love southern Arizona, but on long rides, I use my Tilley cotton hat. HUGE difference in comfort! And a lot of people I've known consider a 3 hour ride a short one...








​


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## bsms

I posted this on egrogan's journal, and I guess I should have anticipated it opening a can of beans. *I didn't, but I should have...
*


bsms said:


> ...So humans have created artificial ways of moving, and judge based on artificial ideas of how a horse moves. No sane person would want to canter down a trail like the horse in the video, and no sane person would want their horse to canter across a field looking like this world champion setting a record:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> And of course, once you get outside the smooth, level arena, most people want their horse looking where it is going, so the whole vertical headset disappears...


Substitute "trail" for "field", and I think what I wrote was precisely correct. In a level, 100 acre pasture, maybe a sane person WOULD want to try cantering like that, but it would be totally inappropriate on many trails:








​ 







​ 
That sort of high energy, exaggerated movement would be hard on the horse's feet, set him up for a fall or nasty sprain, and use up tremendous energy without actually covering much ground.

That doesn't mean Valegro is abused, uncared for, or that dressage is evil. But using power in the vertical rather than crossing country is inefficient. Doing so increases the impact of the feet and makes an injury or fall (on uneven terrain) more likely. And having a horse move with power when it is not looking where it is going works in an arena or level pasture, but is totally inappropriate on uneven terrain. It would also be a lot of work for the rider, and one wouldn't canter very far like that before both horse and rider would be exhausted.

I think dressage has some serious fundamental issues underlying its entire approach. It doesn't make it cruel, and I enjoyed watching Valegro perform...but as a sport and theory of riding, I find it flawed.

For example, it wants to shift weight from the front to the rear legs. A horse having weight on the front will supposedly break down early and lacks agility. But as my favorite dressage writer, Jean Claude Racinet, points out, in reality a collected horse does NOT shift its weight significantly to the rear - and it has been known for at least 100 years. He goes through his analysis, and says the horse's center of gravity moves, at best, an inch or so to the rear. Studies I've read bear it out. "Collection" is a lot of work, and it will not save wear and tear on the front legs by shifting the balance a whopping inch!

Further, the front end of a horse is better built to handle weight. All the weight is carried in a sling of muscle, and that flexible muscle tissue should be able to reduce peak impacts. And again, I've seen studies indicating that happens - that "collection" increases peak impact on the front legs. But happily, horses cannot maintain collection for any great length of time, so it probably doesn't do any harm either.

I've already pointed out my problems with "straightness", as defined by dressage. I think it is generally conceded to be physically impossible for a horse to bend its spine around a curve. And Racinet has a good chapter in one of his books pointing out why he believes it MIGHT be slightly possible, but why the idea that we bend a horse around our inner leg is ridiculous. However, he does explain how he thinks one can manage to generate slight bend...although he doesn't explain why it is worth doing.

A place where Racinet and I totally disagree is his belief that you create balance in a horse and only THEN allow the horse to move. And if he starts to get out of balance, you stop him, rebalance, and try again. He strongly believes horses learn balance by being positioned correctly by the human and it is unfair to expect them to learn it via experience.

I think that is ridiculous. No one would try to teach a fullback balance by tying him up or restraining his arms or legs, and only then tell him to run! It also assumes humans know enough to understand how a horse SHOULD balance, and I see no sign we truly understand how a horse uses its back or legs!

There was a thread long gone by about rounding the back, which is another physical impossibility - as Mr Racinet understood. He is dead now, but I would have given a lot to be able to spend just 30 minutes talking to him and riding with him. He loved dressage - or "Dressage" - but also was open to discussing what could and could not happen, and why.

Ideas like "on the bit" - which makes a lot of sense if called "responsive to cues" - seem harmful when it means a vertical headset with constant contact. We know a horse with a vertical head is looking just in front of his feet. Why that is valued is beyond me. Constant contact as a required element of good riding also puzzles me. I think of good riding as having a conversation with my horse, but I see no reason why I would insist it be via the bit. If the horse wants it - and I think Bandit sometimes does - that is fine. But setting it up as a critical requirement seems proven false by millions of successful western riders.

So yes, I have problems with Dressage as a philosophy of riding. For me.

*As a sport...I have no problem at all with it.*​ 
I don't jump, but I don't object to those who do. My horses don't always feel like going out on a trail, but I take them anyways. Dressage is certainly closer to what I admire than WP is, but I freely admit many western pleasure horses are loved, well cared for, and happy. Although I'm more of a western rider, I'd much rather watch dressage than barrel racing...although I'd rather watch cutting.

But big whoop! What sports I enjoy watching are irrelevant to anyone other than myself.

However, I do think a person should explore what they feel right about asking a horse to do or not do. That is the essence of a philosophy of riding - what do you, as an individual, value in riding and feel justified in getting on a horse and asking it to do.

My five favorite authors on riding are VS Littauer, Harry Chamberlin, George Morris, Tom Roberts and Jean Claude Racinet. Tom Roberts is the only one I know of who said nice things about western riding. Harry Chamberlin loathed western riders. And Tom Roberts started a dressage club in Australia, so it wasn't like he was a hard core western fan!

Like safety equipment, I think what we are willing to do on a horse varies enormously. Many would look at me on Bandit in some recent pictures and say I suck at riding and am cruel and abusive. More than one poster on HF has said so, and several have said they find Bandit's way of moving repulsive.

Oh well. I don't like much, if anything, about WP. But I'm convinced many WP horses are happy and content. Bandit understands what we do, or seems to, and seems genuinely to like being with me. We do not all need to share the same approach. It's OK.


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## egrogan

I didn't feel like you opened a can of worms?? I hear you that the kind of lofty, "up" canter of the dressage ring isn't needed or desirable for the environments you and I ride in. My point was only that I think balance really is an issue for Izzy, precisely when we leave the groomed, level arena and ride "off road" through the woods. She's been ridden plenty in the woods, and I'm sure it's helped some and made her stronger, but I don't think her natural carriage serves her that well...for her, if my circumstances allowed "cross training" with semi-regular dressage lessons, I do think our trail rides would be better (by better, I mean less tripping over the many rocks and down trees we encounter-and I do absolutely think her natural tendency to move on the forehand, which I'm not great at influencing, contributes.). 

I guess that's what I was trying to say about Valegro-I didn't think you were saying he is abused or had a bad life. I think having a competitive dressage horse get that mental and physical cross training by hacking out does help his movement overall, wherever he's working.

Anyway, I'm bad at typing on my phone so will leave it there, but I didn't have any issues with the conversation in Izzys journal?

And-I told you I wasn't trying to convince you that helmets are good :wink:


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## bsms

I often give offense without meaning to. It has made me gun shy...


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## egrogan

bsms said:


> I often give offense without meaning to. It has made me gun shy...


Luckily I am not a person who's easily offended. Horses are supposed to be fun!


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## bsms

*Cantering can be fun?*

Today’s ride was good. Interesting. And good. But it was also work!

It was dry and sunny this morning, unlike our last few, and my DIL & I took Bandit and Trooper out. My DIL rarely rides Trooper. She thought it would be OK for Bandit & I to canter ahead while Trooper walked and she took video. I told her Trooper was likely to act quite different from last ride’s “staying behind with Cowboy” versus today’s “staying behind by myself”.

Once we reached the desert, I asked Bandit to trot. Sure enough, Trooper started trotting a few seconds later, and briefly cantered to catch up. But as soon as I slowed Bandit, Trooper slowed. He had no desire to pass Bandit...just didn’t want to be left behind & alone.

The wash we use all the time had changed some more with the last few days of rain. Uneven, with soft pockets. The sort of spot Mia sometimes had problems just walking. But both horses “had their blood up”, and we alternated trotting with some animated walking. Not “scared” animated. Just excited, ‘ready to go again’ animated. Trooper fell too far behind once. My DIL called out as he cantered, Bandit & I turned to block his forward movement - and again, he slowed with light reins as soon as he got close to Bandit.

I asked my DIL if it was OK if we climbed out at a spot we hadn’t tried before. It wasn’t steep, but had lots of brush & I didn’t want my DIL to stress. She said OK, and both horses plowed their way forward where needed, then climbed a gentle slope up to another trail. We spent the next 20 minutes trotting and walking around, looking at how the rains had changed things. Bandit spooked once. I didn’t see anything, but my DIL said some animal moved off in the brush just to one side of us. But his spook was mild and ended in 2 seconds, so what the heck? Reasonable. He’s half Arabian.

When we got back to the dirt trail/road where we had cantered a few days ago, Bandit was ready for another try. My DIL said she was game, so we did a short canter. Bandit did fine, and Trooper slowed when close. We did a longer one, going over some uneven terrain that I never trusted Mia to handle. Bandit and Trooper both covered it as if it were level ground. However, when I heard my DIL calling Trooper’s name and the pitch got higher, I asked Bandit to slow. Then insisted - glad I still had the curb bit, because we needed to slow and needed to do so in a straight line, and quickly. He gave in, but wasn’t happy. We did a 90 degree turn, blocking Trooper, who did a C-T-W-Stop transition in short order.

Earlier, she had told me she didn’t think Trooper had much speed. I told her she was wrong. This spurt of cantering changed her mind. She now agrees Trooper can move quickly when he wants...but she also said he was still pretty smooth. And that a canter isn’t hard to ride!

For my part, other than getting excited, I think Bandit is both smoother and better balanced at a canter than at a trot. His time racing undoubtedly gave him lots of miles cantering. He seems to start thinking ‘race’, but...if I can convince him cantering is NOT racing, but just showing off until it is time to slow...then we’ll do a LOT of cantering. I’m starting to trust Bandit to stay upright, or to know if the footing requires him to slow. Along with a canter to bolt transition, my greatest fear with Mia was that she would fall and take me with her. Her canter wasn’t nearly as balanced or agile as Bandit’s. She sometimes scared the hell out of me cantering in the arena. We had a few stumbles nearly to her knees cantering on smooth, level ground - so my fears were not baseless. And any canter in the open with Mia was just a breath away from "_Must run! Must run! *MUST RUN!*_"...

This is a new experience for me - cantering toward uneven ground, with gullies and rocks, and feeling I can trust my horse to handle it - or slow if he cannot. Mia has probably learned her balance now, in the open country of northern Arizona and in company with a herd of horses. Bandit obviously KNOWS cantering! Trooper has always known it, although my youngest daughter’s fall last summer took the wind out of her sails.

But my DIL and I both felt good enough that we did one final canter, turning and then slowing as we went up the hill that then drops us into the neighborhood. Bandit slowed with an “Easy” as we neared the crest, and Trooper slid into position beside us. Once in the neighborhood, 18 year old Trooper felt like strolling the final half mile home. He knew where we were. He doesn’t feel threatened in a human neighborhood. And he had done more trotting and cantering in the previous hour than in the previous 6 months...so he was OK with strolling. Bandit pressed ahead, walking the downhill spots and trotting the uphill ones. Entering our little arena, he wanted to canter. I didn’t need to say anything, just ‘assumed the position’ and let him do a couple quick laps. Then we stopped, I dropped the bit, he dropped his head, and started eating the Bermuda/Alfalfa mix growing lush now!

He and Trooper both got 10+ minutes of grazing fresh food before returning to the corral. They had worked for it, and for the most part, behaved very well. My DIL was all smiles and telling me cantering was easier than she thought, so I suspect the horses have more days like today in their future. For the record, we both wore helmets.

*No pictures. No video.* I suspect my DIL was maxed out staying on. But she had fun, and I'm convinced we learn much faster and much easier if we are having fun than when we are scared. I'm also more convinced than ever that


> ...Horses don't like to be ennuye, and will rather stick at home than go out to be bored ; they like amusement, variety, and society : give them their share of these, but never in a pedantic way...


We humans had fun, but I'm convinced the horses both had fun too! I'll say this much anyways - you sure don't need a whip to get them moving! :loveshower:


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## bsms

Want to add...tried something else today. I've been told many times you cannot use a curb bit like a snaffle, that they are for one hand only, and you REALLY MUST NOT EVER use a solid shank curb like a snaffle. But so many things I've been told don't seem to bear out, so....

I tried using 2 hands and treating the solid shank curb like a snaffle. Not all the time, but for relaxing along the trail and for turns like this one a few days back where neck reining just looks ugly:








​ 
I generally hold reins between my thumb and index finger, and this bit only has a 2:1 mechanical advantage anyways (3:1 is pretty typical for western bits)...but Bandit had zero problems if I used two hands, particularly for cuing a tighter turn. If he had ANY problem with it, he sure hid it well. I think he also likes the low port and the total smoothness of the bit. There is NOTHING to catch anything on anywhere. I probably spent 60-70% of my time today riding with one hand, including the canters. But for a roll back kind of action, or tight turns, or even just so I feel better balanced strolling on a trail - direct reining worked fine. One hand or two, Bandit didn't care! 

Just don't use it too much...:clap:...it's primary job is to hold the other end of the reins up!


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## gottatrot

For me, riding two handed in any bit is more balanced, and I think if you have an independent seat so you can use your rein cues meaningfully, it doesn't matter much whether you use one or two hands, regardless of the bit. 



bsms said:


> However, I do think a person should explore what they feel right about asking a horse to do or not do. That is the essence of a philosophy of riding - what do you, as an individual, value in riding and feel justified in getting on a horse and asking it to do...
> 
> Like safety equipment, I think what we are willing to do on a horse varies enormously. Many would look at me on Bandit in some recent pictures and say I suck at riding and am cruel and abusive. More than one poster on HF has said so, and several have said they find Bandit's way of moving repulsive.
> 
> Oh well. I don't like much, if anything, about WP. But I'm convinced many WP horses are happy and content. Bandit understands what we do, or seems to, and seems genuinely to like being with me. We do not all need to share the same approach. It's OK.


I really like that part about how we should think about our philosophies and why we feel justified about what we do with horses. It is very individualized. Many things are a bit "gray" and vary from horse to horse and rider to rider.

I'm getting into the conversation late about helmets and such. I do agree that adults are responsible for their own safety and it's not my responsibility to tell them what to do. Also our perceived risk is based largely on our own experiences. One thing I would say is that people have the right to insist that people wear a helmet when riding their horses, and I do tell people they must put on a helmet if they want to ride mine. This is for a couple of reasons. One is that I would feel absolutely terrible if someone had a possibly preventable head injury on one of my horses. Another is that as a nurse, I want to increase the odds that I can help and save someone from an injury that happens when I'm around, and I believe a helmet does that. 

I don't know all the different variables that make it possible for some people to ride for many years and not know anyone that has fallen off a horse and hit their head. All I know is that in my world, these variables seem to be highly in favor of people hitting their heads, and perhaps it is as simple as the footing we ride on or the more commonly used breeds/builds of horses. The friend who cracked her helmet on Amore last year was a good, defensive rider, but I watched as the horse dropped out from underneath her. As well, friends of mine (and myself) have had horses' legs slip out suddenly going around a corner, and one friend's head landed right on a rock, which cracked her helmet in two. Mild concussion for the rider, but almost certainly death or permanent disability without the helmet. 

These words are not to say "people absolutely should wear a helmet," as you say there are many variables which make things different for different riders. In my part of the world, you'd be smart to do it but I'd probably be smarter to only ride horses like @Smilie owns, and I don't.


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## bsms

I think a big part of risk avoidance comes from incremental training and breeding. And from matching horse to rider.

The ranch I referenced has horses of varying challenge. One of the brothers said his other brother often uses a horse no one else rides, and that he wouldn't try getting on that horse. His own interest in horses lies, like his father's, in getting work done. Not in horses for the sake of horses. The same brother said he was nearly injured a few summers back when the trail he was on gave way. He had just enough warning to throw himself off on the uphill side, then the horse rolled sideways down a 50' drop. When he finally got down to where the horse was, he was shocked to have the horse shake himself, get to his feet after a couple of tries...and be able to walk back. No particular injuries and the horse was back in service a few days later.

But as he pointed out, what probably would have killed him in the fall was being rolled over again and again with the saddle horn against his chest. I think that is the way I would most likely die on a horse - taking a roll when the ground gives way and having my chest crushed.

So...do I cut off the saddle horn? Sorry. I like saddle horns. My Aussie saddle has one. So, I take my chances. As we all do, when riding.

Honestly, a couple of the times I've come closest to dying on a horse was when Mia would back rapidly to a vertical 8-10' drop on to rocks. If I hadn't been able to spin her in time to see the drop...well, backwards off 10' ain't "Rocky Mountain" in height, but still very dangerous to us both.

Someone who needs to max perform a horse will need to take more chances. As long as Bandit & I can both take a look at a slope, and both have veto power, our odds are pretty good. 

At the ranch, they try to match horse to role. New sheepherders get caretaker horses. Rough cattle are reserved for the family, who have more experience and who ride more challenging horses.

Mia & I were NOT a good match for safety. Riding today, and seeing how easily Bandit handled cantering - not on rough terrain, but not on smooth footing either - and thinking of the times we nearly went down in the arena...and thinking of the spins and bolts and mindlessness that occupied much of our first few years together...glad I'm still alive! I cared for Mia but I took way too many chances for my skill level (or non-skill level, as it was). Challenging horses belong with riders prepared for them, and those may be rarer than often admitted!

I think a huge part of it may be the type riding most people I know have done. The guy in his 80s who rode for 50+ years trained horses, but took his time. And his desired end state wasn't a horse who could win competitions, but a horse who could cheerfully and safely cross 20-30 miles of Sonoran Desert...mostly at a fast walk.

The majority of ranchers I've met rode horses to go somewhere and do work, then have the horse get you back. Often in the dark. Lots of trotting. Lots of walking. Not a lot of high speed stuff. Some pictures from last summer:








​ 







​ 
In some ways, this photo I took is instructive:








​ 
The professional had dismounted to grab a tired ewe and set her aside for the trailer to haul, while his horse continued walking with the sheep. He jogged up a few minutes later and mounted up. But the professionals were watching the sheep and getting off regularly to do work.

The horse is a tool you use to get the job done, and when you work alone in places that STILL have no cell phone coverage - well, you work at a pace that keeps you alive, first and foremost! If you don't like the footing, you dismount. No one there but sheep or cattle to laugh at you, and they don't!

Decades ago, the US Air Force crashed thousands of planes. I forget how much the accident rate dropped once they started investigating all crashes. I think it dropped 95% or more. Many crashes were pilot error, and some were engineering. I think a lot of falls are still rider error because no one investigates. No one looks at riding from an engineering standpoint. No one *ASKS* "_Did bad rider position set up the fall? Did the rider have the training? Was the horse trained for success - or set up for failure?_"

After all, what instructor is going to say, "_Yeah, well...shoulder - hip - heel in a vertical line may have been what I taught you, but when your horse spooked and dropped a shoulder and spun, you didn't have the longitudinal base of support to stay on!_"

I watched an "instructional video" on YouTube a couple of days ago on mounting. The person shall remain nameless, but he got up and then hung his body across the horse - "This lessens the sideways pull of the saddle!" Yeah, it does. Good on you. I suppose. But if your horse moves out, you are not in a position to do anything other than fall. It was bad advice for anyone who doesn't have an amazingly calm and forgiving horse - but the guy has a lot of YouTube followers.

In his defense, I see very little correlation between what respected books and trainers teach and what happens when I try things - such as doing some direct reining with a solid shank bit, or even when training Mia to use a curb when we both were bright green! But still - his advice sucked. Bad. And lots of people see it.

They also get bad advice from people pushing riding techniques that work on well trained horses moving in a controlled manner. I was rereading a book on dressage earlier today. He wrote a few pages that could be summarized as, "Horses are easy to stay on as long as you are in control of everything they do." Yeah...well....ummm....good luck with that, dude! Not MY world!

But I suspect a lot of safety comes down to:

1 - How hard to you push the envelope?

2 - Do you and your horse train incrementally to expand your envelope?

3 - Do you observe what works and doesn't work, and adjust accordingly?

My riding may be more boring for not pushing the envelope as hard, but I'm safer for it. I do need to expand the envelope for both my horse and I, but I try to do so in small bites. And I accept I can still be killed on my next ride. By pavement, rocks, cactus or my saddle horn...:eek_color:

PS - My friend's ranch uses half-Arabian horses almost exclusively. Trooper, our Steady Eddie, is 3/4 Arabian. I joke about Arabians, but I'm convinced they can be uncommonly safe horses to ride. Same with mustangs. THINKING horses can be taught.


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## bsms

Speaking of safety on horses, this was just posted on another thread. My comments below have nothing to do with that thread, but I'll comment here:



Joel Reiter said:


> ...Ten years ago an area teacher was mounting a horse when it took off running. She stayed on for about 50 yards. When her family caught up with her she was unconscious and rescue workers were unable to revive her. Her obituary said "training and riding horses was a passion for Kay."
> 
> Three years ago a woman was riding with two friends along a road when a horse in an adjacent pasture somehow caused all three horses to spook, all three horses ran out of control, and all three riders fell. Two had minor injuries, the other was flown to a nearby hospital and died two days later from head injuries. On her profile she listed horse training as an activity she loved.
> 
> Just this March a woman in our area "was riding with a friend in the woods near her home when her horse suddenly spooked. Laney suffered a fatal head injury after falling from the horse Wednesday afternoon."...


The ex-US Air Force Safety School graduate in me looks at that and thinks...

"an area teacher was mounting a horse when it took off running. She stayed on for about 50 yards."

When I first took lessons at Utah State University (one quarter's worth of weekly lessons), the old guy teaching it emphasized that when mounting, you did so in a way that allowed you to bail if the horse bolted, or got you on fast enough to STAY on if the horse bolted. I no longer have the thread bookmarked, but a thread on HF from around 2011 discussed using the horn (or not) when mounting with a western saddle, and many of the comments were based on what would happen if the horse bolted across country while mounting.[Note - Found it, 2010: http://www.horseforum.com/western-riding/mounting-using-horn-47065/ ]

There are techniques in mounting that make it easier to get on or drop off in mid-mount if the horse bolts. But apart from the lessons I took at USU in 1978...I don't recall ever hearing an instructor (my daughter had three) discuss how to respond if the horse bolts in mid-mount.

The ex-Safety Officer in me considers this dereliction of duty by instructors. You cannot prevent horses from bolting in mid-mount, but there ARE techniques that will improve your chances of survival if they do. 

Of course, this woman MAY have done everything right. If training and rider were her passion, MAYBE she did everything right! The ex-Safety Officer in me understands that not all accidents are pilot error, and a person can die while riding while doing everything right. But you ARE more likely to die if you do things wrong. And in a safety investigation, I needed to be convinced the pilot did nothing wrong. Why? Because MOST plane crashes involve some degree of pilot error.

"somehow caused all three horses to spook, all three horses ran out of control, and all three riders fell"

My horses don't see a lot of other horses. When they do, they get pretty interested. And alert. But even if they spin and run off - and Mia had a phobia about strange horses, we did our share of spins on pavement when she saw a strange horse - WHY did their riders all fall off? WHY! When riding outside the arena, your horse may spook at lots of things. Mia once spooked because a plant we had passed 100 times had dared to BLOSSOM without asking her first! If "spook = reasonable chance of falling", then I'd be dead by now.

So...what is it, either gear or training, that led 3 out of 3 riders to fall when their horses spooked? I'd bet a combination of not listening to their horses, poor tack choices, and bad training. When people come ride with us, we put them on our most trustworthy horses. But we also try to explain how to ride and how to respond to minimize the chance of injury in a spook. *Assume the spook*. But I've had lessons that emphasized "toes front" without regard for horse and rider build. And read many times that I should NEVER be "behind the horse"...








​ 
Don't you want a "balanced seat"? Doesn't everyone! But one of her "unbalanced seats" is actually a pretty good way to ride - not for top performance, but for defense in a spook. If you are balanced per the first two, and your horse slams on the brakes and drops a shoulder and spins, and you don't have excellent reflexes, you will become a badly balanced rider in about 0.2 seconds! What a highly experienced or expert rider can do is irrelevant to many of us mortal riders. And trying to ride like an expert can be mortal...

I think this should be within the average trail rider's ability, and it should be taught as good riding:










It isn't luck. It isn't supernatural reflexes. Heck, as a very green rider, my Australian saddle kept me on, regardless of my inability, in spooks like that! In my western saddle, I think sheepskin helps me stay on when the unexpected occurs. And yes, I still wear a helmet. But I think too many instructors, too many videos and too many books - including my much loved books by VS Littauer and Harry Chamberlin - set riders up for failure.

I think too many instructors, too many books, and too many riders accept falling as an "Act of God". Zeus throws down a lightning bolt and BOOM! You are out of the saddle. And yes, I understand that strange accidents can occur, and one can use the right tack, ride well, etc, and still fall. I knew a couple of guys who punched out of their jet when a fan blade came off, went sideways, shredded both jet engines and the hydraulics (flight controls), and they went from "everything good" to "impossible to fly" in half a second. It DOES happen.

And the closer you fly to the edge of the envelope (or ride there), the greater the chance you WILL go out of the envelope! *There is a reason fighter aircraft have ejection seats and cargo planes have parachutes and passenger planes have nothing!*

But yeah...I think a lot of riding instructors teach bad riding. Bad in the sense that they teach how to ride a calm horse on level terrain and omit how to ride when things go sour! 

Now...I also watched my oldest daughter give up riding after SHE gave up and slid off Trooper even while Trooper was doing his best to stay between her and the ground. And I watched my youngest daughter, a year ago, give up and slide of Trooper when he was cantering (not really a spook, just trying to get closer to Bandit) while crossing the desert off trail. She just quit riding! And paid the price. Those were BOTH falls from rider error!

And in 9 years, including riding out with brand new riders, those are the only falls we've had. Unless you count my trying to dismount from Mia when she was still very scared (rider error), or jumping off after the saddle slipped sideways when she spun violently (mechanical error - saddle didn't fit well). There has yet to be a fall for us that wasn't preventable! ​


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## egrogan

Hmm...now you have me thinking about how many of my falls have been preventable. I'll guess probably most but need to think about it.

One memorable one that still makes me laugh is a time I was in the indoor and a massive ice sheet slid off the metal roof. One second Izzy was under me, the next second I was basically standing on my feet on the ground with no horse there. She disappeared like a cartoon where the character magically zips to one side in the blink of an eye. My instructor was working another horse at the other end of the arena and happened to look over her shoulder right after Izzy pulled off her magic. My instructor just looked at me and said "how'd you end up on the ground?" I had to tell her I had no idea!

But, probably still rider error because I knew Izzy hated the sound of that roof letting go of the ice and put myself in a bad situation to get a ride in.


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## bsms

^^ There are degrees of defensiveness. I rode Mia VERY defensively. That helped me stay on, but it was exhausting. Bandit is more trustworthy, and I'm starting to be less defensive, and thus a better rider...but if he pulled a Mia tomorrow, I might come off.

But Bandit being as cautious as he is, I need to always ride on the assumption he will throw it in reverse without asking, or take a few hops sideways. If I tried to ride him the way VS Littauer taught, I'd come off. Maybe not if I had 50 years of experience, or superb reflexes...*but I'm me, and I'd come off*.

I don't think we can prevent every fall. But I think we need to review every fall, and think, and decide what (if anything) we are willing to do to prevent a repeat. You cannot fly a jet fighter like a cargo plane or you would fail at the mission of a fighter plane. You MUST take chances. But by taking accidents seriously, and asking if they were accidents or preventable events, we were able to cut our accident rate enormously while still flying hard!

After all, we could ALL ride safer if we only rode deadhead 13 hand ponies on level ground...but that wouldn't be the same, would it! And no, 13.0 hand Cowboy is not a deadhead - but he IS a safer ride than Bandit. And I ride Bandit. And I want to ride Bandit...:think:


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## bsms

Had an excellent ride today. My DIL rode Trooper again and I rode Bandit (of course). We covered the same ground that would normally take us 90 minutes in 50 minutes. Lots of trotting. Bandit was offering a trot, and I usually accepted his offer. My DIL actively wanted it, other than a few sections of trail where the rocks were too bad.

Trooper sometimes shifted into a canter to catch up, and she was fine with that because he always slowed when he got closer to Bandit. I asked Bandit to canter a few sections, particularly coming back. Every time I asked him to slow he did, usually at a verbal cue. He stayed balanced, and once slowed on his own to cross a small gully, then accelerated back. It is a lot of fun to canter in the open IF you trust your horse!

The last time I asked him to canter, he did...and then slowed to a stop on his own about 100 yards down. I was puzzled, but I didn't urge him on. The I looked back. My DIL had decided to let Trooper walk instead. I normally don't want Bandit to take too big of a lead on Trooper. We think Troop's eyesight is questionable and it makes him nervous.

Well, cantering while Trooper strolled opened a big gap fast...so Bandit slowed on his own to keep Troop within an acceptable distance. I praised Bandit profusely because he made the decision I would have made, if I could see behind me and knew what was going on! A horse who uses JUDGMENT rather than just obeying cues is exactly what I want.

He did balk once, at the mean-looking branch sticking out over the wash. Since he has decided Trooper's judgment is OK, we let Trooper take the lead for that short section - and Bandit followed quietly. It will make it MUCH easier to calm Bandit past things if he is willing to learn from Trooper!

No pictures. We were both busy riding today. Bandit did an OMG Crouch at one point - no idea why, and he didn't seem to know either. He also got very light on the front end about 100 yards from home, passing a neighbor's yard. So much for the "They spook going away, not coming home" theory! I have no idea why he got nervous, but we cantered past, then turned and trotted past twice, then walked past. By then Trooper caught up and strolled past. I then had Bandit go to the scary spot and stand there. After about 30 seconds, he sighed, relaxed...and we finished the last 100 yards. Then cantered a single lap around our little arena, dismounted and let them eat for 15 minutes.

Bandit accepts the solid shank curb bit VERY well. It is the best bit I've tried on him. With it, I'm using draped reins. Not draped in the WP sense, but draped in my fingers. If he needs to, he can pull the reins through to extend his head. I'll gather them up later. If I need to use the reins, I can squeeze to grip them and then cue him. Mostly, they are just draped between my fingers. That included several canters today...draped in my fingers, modest slack in the reins, and slowing at a verbal cue. Hard to beat that for an "_I feel safe cantering_" feeling!

:loveshower:​


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## bsms

I apologize for the quality of the picture, but the video it comes from is not very good. The video was used on another thread as an example of a "major spook" - and how to handle it. Frankly, it didn't look like a very big spook, but I rewatched the video and can see why the guy riding thought it was. After all, he nearly fell off.








​
OK, this is why I mention the longitudinal base of support. This is Jane Savoie's examples of balanced riding and imbalanced riding:








​ 
You don't want to be Rider G, who is out of balance. According to the book. But consider what happens if you are one of the balanced riders, and your horse spooks, major or not. It takes about 1/4 of a second for you to go from "balanced" to "_so unbalanced you are about to fall off_" - as in the pictures from the video.








​
But if you are willing to ride defensively, particularly when you know your horse MIGHT spook, all one needs to do is slide the feet forward some. When the horse throws it in reverse, your vertical grip with your legs doesn't throw you off balance. Instead, your loose leg slides your weight deeper into the stirrups. Your base of support is ready for what happens next instead of your being caught off guard!

Another advantage is you are NOT gripping with your leg. You have no tendency to. You can be nervous, prepare for a spook - and not squeeze your horse.

I've been wondering why people say when they get nervous, their horse gets nervous. One possibility is that my horses are SOOOO used to my being nervous that they are desensitized to my nervousness. I actually think this is a real possibility. But it also occurred to me that maybe people respond differently when nervous. 

I respond my moving my rein hand forward while shortening my reins a little - giving the horse SLACK while giving myself the right to take it away quickly. But all the horse feels is....slack. And my heels move forward and slightly AWAY from my horse as I straighten my legs out - removing pressure from my horse's sides, or at least not adding to it.

Could it be that my horse interprets the lack of pressure in his mouth and on his sides as me relaxing? Might my "nervous" position be understood by my horse as "confidence"?








​
Very simplistic, but it gets the idea of how it feels to me in a western saddle. Haven't tried it English, but it feels close to the same Australian. Still, as I've pointed out, an Australian saddle has some significant differences in design from a modern English one.

But what I call the Old Cowboy approach, with the added wrinkle of leaning slightly forward, puts the star (my center of gravity) within the triangle of support.

Last night, on a saddle stand, I tried to fall off sideways. If I use the standard approach of lower leg right next to my saddle, even a small lean puts my shoulders too far to the side and I have to grab the horn to keep from falling. But if my feet are further away - and the straight leg of the Old Cowboy approach tends to do that, in a western saddle at least....then I can lean pretty far to the left or right without any problem - because my latitudinal base of support is then wider and my center of gravity remains within the triangle of support.

Add in having been taught to let my weight flow uninterrupted through my knees and totally into my heels, and the result (IMHO) is an easy way to stay on in a spook.

Don't know if my theory is correct. Truth is, Bandit is getting good enough that I may never find out. We sometimes go a little sideways, but not too bad. He's only half-Arabian! I don't remember the last time he did a 180. We sometimes go from moving forward to moving backward, and the Old Cowboy style still works very well for that, or for stumbles.

But my horse may not be spooky enough for me to experiment much more. Not sure if that is good or bad....safer, I guess.

-----------------------

To put it another way...suppose you were standing upright in the bed of a pickup, and you knew it was about to turn left. You would crouch a little, and put your right foot forward and further right. When the truck went left, your right foot would receive your weight and keep you from falling. If you just stood vertical with your feet together, the truck turning left would make you fall to the right. In this case, you have the saddle under your rump and don't know if you are about to go left or right. So you let both feet go out, and can receive weight on either your left or right leg as you turn hard.


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> But if you are willing to ride defensively, particularly when you know your horse MIGHT spook, all one needs to do is _slide the feet forward some_. When the horse throws it in reverse, your vertical grip with your legs doesn't throw you off balance. Instead, your loose leg slides your weight deeper into the stirrups. Your base of support is ready for what happens next instead of your being caught off guard!


Good post. Along with the wider base of support, it is extremely important not to let your lower leg swing back as the rider does in your example. In my opinion and experiences, letting the lower leg pivot back is very natural and also makes you far more likely to fall off. I had to consciously train myself to push the leg forward when the horse spooked or took off with me, because it was a weak point in my riding. Swinging the leg back removes your base of support. When the horse moves fast, you need more weight in the stirrup to prevent the leg from swinging back, so you have to train yourself to push down (and out) when something bad happens. The natural response is to cling and go into a fetal position, which pulls the base of support narrower and pushes our lower leg back.


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## bsms

The forward seat taught in the 30s put a lot of emphasis on heels down. It entered into riding lore without an understanding of WHY it was taught.

I noticed on my last ride that my normal stirrup setting is at the upper limit of where I use the 'old cowboy' approach. One hole higher and I can't use my leg quite the same way without having a negative effect on my seat. On my last ride, I shortened the stirrups one hole up and needed to switch to the forward seat fundamentals - weight in the heel, heel depressed, slightly more bent leg and an almost vertical lower leg. The feeling it gives me is that my lower leg becomes a unit and my weight can be behind my stirrups. It is similar in feel to what happens with the longer style, but gives more grip along the horse's side.

In many ways, I think it is a BETTER way to stay on a reacting horse, but it is also harder to teach. I can tell someone who is visiting us, who rides every couple of years, to ride my horse like a Harley if they get nervous or feel they may be coming off. I usually tell them to start off the ride that way and then relax as soon as they feel comfortable - which is usually just a few minutes. But if they get nervous, or if they feel they need a more secure position (such as if they feel their horse is going too fast), they can briefly revert to "Harley style".

I also tell them if they get worried to A) Never give up, B) Put one hand on the saddle horn and hold on, and C) Give the horse plenty of slack. I explain the horses they ride - Cowboy or Trooper - will NOT run more than 50 yards on their own, but squeezing or jerking on their mouth will scare the horse and make them run faster and farther. Worst case, I tell them, drop the reins and just hold on with the horn and with your legs forward and out.

Trooper and Cowboy are not bolters. I've never seen them keep running from nerves unless their rider squeezes them. And they have never tried to pass Bandit when scared, although they will try to catch up with him. And for his part, Bandit as leader is very sensible.



> ...For a beginner, it is well to have the stirrups a little on the long side, rather than too short, as this permits, and almost forces the rider to work the thighs and knees well down around the horse, and thus overcome the usual instinctive tendency to raise the knees, which makes the seat unstable and weakens the grip of the knees and calves.
> 
> It is the ability to grip with the calves of the legs, and to a much lesser extent with the knees and thighs, that provides the strength of seat through which a good rider stays with his horse when difficulties, such as shying, kicking, plunging, stumbling, bucking or jumping arise...
> 
> Heels
> 
> After putting the feet in the stirrups, the ankle joints should remain relaxed, and the heels be forced down as far as possible. The importance of keeping the heels down cannot be too greatly emphasized. It produces the strength and stability of the whole seat.
> 
> With heels thus placed, the calf muscles can be powerfully contracted when it is desired to grip the horse, either to drive him forward, or to keep the seat when balance has been disturbed from any cause. With the toes lower than the heels, it is physically impossible to contract the calf muscles and grip tightly...
> 
> ...The toes turn out at an angle which is comfortable, and which allows the calves of the legs, particularly the inner portion just below the knees, to close against the horse. The feet will usually form an angle between 20 and 45 degrees with the longer axis of the horse. This angle varies slightly with the length of stirrup-straps, as well as with the conformation of the horse and rider...
> 
> ...Gripping too tightly with the knees or thighs is fatiguing, produces general stiffness, and squeezes a rider out of his seat...*Unfortunately it is a habit instinctive with beginners. The leg grip should be most powerful just below the knee, and is produced by the calves*. The knee also tightens, however, to hold the seat in place if the horse pulls, or when much tension is required on the reins. The brace of the feet against the stirrups (due to the very low position of the heels), assisted by the pressure of the knees when necessary, permits a rider to maintain the forward inclination of the body and hold his seat in place while restraining a pulling horse. Also, in case the horse stumbles, 'pecks' in front of a jump, or stops unexpectedly, the grip of the knees increases to help keep the seat fixed in place.... - Lt Col Harry Chamberlin


If I am very nervous, I revert to the Forward Seat. My stirrups are longer but it still works pretty good. Particularly with 3" wide stirrup straps, you can get the lower leg very solidly connected and it will resist any forward motion due to a spook or stumble as well as anything else.

Good riders will do what they will do, although many experienced riders do not pay attention to staying on an emotional horse. On our last ride, cantering, Bandit spotted a large and brightly colored used sack of potato chips some jerk had trashed beside the trail. There was no room to avoid it laterally, and he cantered by while giving it the stink eye and twisting his body slightly toward it. We were past it before I realized WHY he was doing that - another case of him acting nervous when I had nothing to be nervous about!

I can't tell you how I ride a canter in the open. I'm busy enough monitoring what Bandit is doing, if Trooper and my DIL behind me are OK, how rocky the trail is or is about to get, etc. I'm too busy thing about what *WE* are doing to notice what *.I.* am doing. In our little arena, a canter is just a continuous turn on level ground. I can spare thought. But in the open I need to make decisions - faster, slower, is Bandit watching his feet, is my DIL getting overwhelmed?

I know I feel GOOD cantering with Bandit, and feel like WE are cantering...but I have no idea what my position is. Littauer's phrase "fluid balance" is my general memory, perhaps because I'm thinking about what WE are doing TOGETHER instead of "position"!

But a lot of people who have ridden a long time seem to do so without monitoring their horse's emotional state. I was surprised when I went back and saw the rider's legs going far back and his seat out of the saddle. He was in no position to do anything with his horse at that point other than stay on by any means necessary. I can understand pushing his horse forward IF the goal was to get a video of a spook, but then why not adopt a more defensive position?

A good defensive position is still ridden loosely. It doesn't involve squeezing, tightening the reins or hanging on to the horse before the horse has done anything. You can have a firm leg, with weight flowing into the heels, without first squeezing. You can shorten the reins some without jumping in the horse's mouth. You can give the horse freedom while still preparing for the worst. 

This was taken 2 months after Bandit arrived. We were still working on the idea that contact was acceptable and didn't mean slam on the emergency brakes. At the time, it was possible he would slam on the brakes while trotting, so I needed to be ready. But "ready" meant keeping my center of gravity behind my heels, and my weight mostly in my heels. Slamming on the brakes would have resulted in my upper body tilting forward, but my SEAT would not have moved!








​
"Chair seat"? Unbalanced? Or merely a good defensive position? Almost every book I have on riding would describe that as a bad position. It would not be a good way to win a race, jump a fence, or show off how calm and responsive my horse is. But I think it IS a good position. I'm not interfering with Bandit, but I'm ready in case he spooks or stops suddenly.


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## bsms

gottatrot said:


> Reading my latest issue of Equus magazine tonight, came across some interesting and thought-provoking information I thought I'd share...
> 
> ...Finally, there was an article about how genetic testing is getting far more advanced, with tests for many genetic diseases and colors. There is now a test for a mutation called "curiosity versus vigilance." The mutation affects dopamine receptors in horses' brains. If a horse has two copies of this recessive gene, they are defined as more curious. Horses with only one or no copies of the gene are more vigilant.
> 
> I've believed for a long time that many horses are born much more wary or "spooky" than others, and that this is not always something that comes from their life experiences or training. Some young horses I've met are so nervous and jumpy, while others are just open and curious. Yet born in the same stable, handled by the same people, etc. I'm guessing there are many differences in the DNA that affect how horses react to things, handle things and respond to training...


http://www.horseforum.com/member-journals/why-i-gotta-trot-645777/page69/#post1970236249



> If Bandit is in fact GENETICALLY cautious, then Bandit's rider may not want to hang it out, basing his balance on the assumption Bandit will never do anything or go anywhere unless the rider first directs him!


I nearly bought some DVDs on riding in the forward seat from Bernie Traurig. I may still do so, sometime. But against it is this: How "forward" can I afford to sit if my horse may regularly decide to throw it in reverse, hard, over a smell? If a pickup drives on a smooth road at a constant speed, I can stand in the bed and balance easily. If the driver feels free to change direction or speed at will, then I might prefer to brace. 

One of the reasons I haven't bought the DVDs or watching privilege is that I find it almost painful to watch some of the riding. Jumping high objects requires the rider to get well off the back. I understand. But that is foreign to what I do. And the impact of that on the rest of one's riding...watching someone post high off a horse's back...I'd as soon be seen riding in a swimsuit! Not sure my neighbors would agree, but neither is ever going to happen. Not as long as I stay sober. 






But as I watch some of the video on YouTube, I think, "But what would happen if the rider's horse suddenly says, "_Hey! What is that really stinky thing pretending to be flowers next to the jump? And WHY in the HECK would I EVER jump ANYTHING I can't see over? Who is the moron on my back that expects me to?!!!!_"

Bandit's very lean build would work against him as a barrel racer or cutter. His stance is far too narrow - and I cannot train him to be wider:








​ 
It would be like asking someone with my short, dumpy body to play in the NBA. Some things are not meant to be! And maybe Bandit just 'wasn't meant to be' ridden in a so-called "balanced seat"? If he is genetically cautious, then maybe he is genetically unsuited to being ridden "balanced"? After all, what is balanced at one moment in time may be unbalanced 1/4 of a second later, and thus fluid balance for the riding one does is more important than position (from Littauer):











"Does your seat enable you to control your horse efficiently?" 

Hmmm....*do I need to stay on if I want to control my horse?*​


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## bsms

PS - The video above reminds me that a slow motion video is a devastating evaluation tool! If you want to look totally incompetent, watch yourself ride in slow motion! And since the folks in the video are experts (IIRC, one of the riders is George Morris)...then maybe 'good riding' encompasses a lot that doesn't look pretty?


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## bsms

This is over 9 minutes, but it makes me want to watch more. And without hitting play, the guy in the lower right corner is one of the great riders, doing what almost everyone watching would say is bad, but isn't:






I obviously do not want to jump. The places I would LIKE to jump would be gullies, but the place the horse would need to land would almost certainly have rocks and be at an angle - good for injuring the horse! But I'd love to be able to spend 1 minutes explaining where I ride and WHO I ride, and then get 2-3 minutes of advice from someone who truly understands the forward seat!

If nothing else, it was fun listening to WHY some top riders use a different approach at a different jump or with a different horse!

It also would be in conflict with one of my goals - how an occasional rider can ride safely AND without getting too much in the horse's way. Riding a forward seat well would take practice - for both technique AND the physical strength to use it right! 

Gotta admit...I'd like to take jumping lessons - on someone else's horse - if I knew of a GOOD place for instruction. But around here, I suspect I'd only find the squished-leg version of dressage being taught as a forward seat...and Bandit would not be a good horse to learn jumping on! Particularly since he doesn't know anything about it himself!


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## bsms

Did a screen capture from the video. I hate to think how it would be critiqued, including by me, but it makes sense when seen in context:











Rodrigo Pessoa

​That is part of the difference between a great rider and mortals. And I'm not sure I even qualify as a mortal. More like a piece of furniture the horse has to endure on his back...a 59 year old piece of furniture. Poor Bandit! But Bandit forgives me my failures and I try to forgive him his flaws. A rider like myself cannot afford to point fingers at his horse!


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## bsms

From 4 days ago, on another thread:



bsms said:


> Got in a 90+ minute ride with all three horses going out. Bandit was feeling his oats, even though he doesn't get any oats. We did a lot of trotting and cantering, and going back to get the others. Even when I had dismounted and walked him (something we do at least once an hour)...we had a good lead.
> 
> I think this picture shows how slender Bandit is. He's 14.3 or 15 hands, and weighs around 800-850 lbs. He has some depth to his chest, but he's built slender...don't think there is a drop of QH blood in him. Supposed to be half-Arabian, half-Mustang. I use a 28" cinch on him western, but a 26" would fit him better.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> Later, my daughter & DIL caught up, sort of, but then needed their own lunch break. We've had a wet summer. You don't see grass like this often around here! Made a good chance for the horses to get used to traffic doing 50+ mph...hard to get excited about a mere car when you have GREEN GRASS!





bsms said:


> BTW - the second dismount for the ride came at the end. Walked beside him for the last 5 minutes. Maybe I'm out of shape. Maybe it has a little to do with being 59. But it felt SOOOO good to walk after 90+ minutes of animated horse. He was acting as light on the front end at the end of the ride as at the beginning.
> 
> I prefer my western saddle and felt awkward in my Aussie. But if we take all three horses out, the females in my family all want good leather western saddles to ride in. If Bandit can be that "Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah" all ride long Australian, maybe I'll just get used to riding Aussie again.
> 
> And dismounting and walking every 45 minutes or so...:wink:


He had plenty of "Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah" today, too! I rode him solo today (and western). Heading out on the street, he trotted a lot outbound. Turned him around, and he trotted most of the way back. Hitting the arena, he was ready to MOVE! We did a couple of laps at a canter, then had an argument because he wanted to accelerate. Did another lap, then he took the snaffle bit in his teeth and we had a fight because I'm NOT going to let him take control because he is in a snaffle. Probably 20 seconds of fight, but not pretty.

Then we did a few more laps at a canter, took a breath, and trotted. And he had a HUGE trot! No idea where it came from! I didn't know he had it in him. Caught me totally by surprise. I've worried my longer-leg setting on the stirrups puts too much pressure on his back...but if he can trot like that, then he doesn't have a problem! I was left scrambling for a moment.

For a scrawny, skinny, narrow horse, he can generate a lot of "oomph" in his stride!

He was just starting to settle, then started shaking his head hard from gnats. He has that problem at times on the trail, too. I looked at my watch...twenty minutes of riding. TWENTY MINUTES????? Sweat running down my face, my T-shirt soaked, my jeans damp with sweat - and only 20 minutes?! Did my watch stop? No....just an energetic twenty minutes.

But I tried something. Dismounted, bent my finger, and slid it into his left ear. I thought he would object, but he tilted his head and pushed like a dog. For 30 seconds, my finger was his Q-Tip. Went to the other side, repeat. He doesn't normally like me touching his ears, but he was fine with it today!

So we quit. Were we "on a good note"? Beats me. Couldn't tell you ANYTHING about position today, other than I stayed on and was too busy to think of anything else. He was settling, but the bugs were driving him nuts and I was soaked and my jeans were sweaty...so we quit.

A few hours later, I went into the corral to clean up the poop. He came over to ask for head rubs. No sign of resentment. My daughter says Bandit is no more pigheaded than I am, and "_both of you are genetically incapable of holding a grudge_" - and maybe she is right.

Part of me wants an easier ride, but like my farrier asks, "_So...if you want easy, why do you ride Bandit? You have two other horses..._" And it actually was fun, for 20 minutes. Work, but fun. His back was wet with sweat under the pad and around the cinch, with salt, so he was working hard too.

Sometimes Bandit likes to stroll. Not today. I would have been happy enough with a stroll today, but one needs to ride what your horse offers on any given day. Or, as Rodrigo Pessoa was doing in the screen shot, ride the horse who is under you at THAT moment. Frankly, I'd have liked to hand Rodrigo Pessoa the reins for a few minutes today and watch a real rider ride. But Bandit had to make do with me, and neither of us gets too put out with the other.

Wasn't pretty, but I sort of think we both had some fun. Now...off for my second dose of Motrin. My back. May be getting old for having "fun"...

:cheers:​


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## gottatrot

The video of the different jumping seats is very good. I didn't listen to all the commentary (they are cleaning the floors here near my desk and it is loud) so if I say something redundant, I apologize.



> *BSMS* - Jumping high objects requires the rider to get well off the back. I understand.


Before I ever jumped, I thought the rider got off the back so the horse could jump better. Once you jump a few times you realize that getting off the back is something you need to do in order to keep your seat well. Basically, if you try to sit the horse over a jump with the saddle on, you feel the horse's front end rise up off the ground and if you don't rise with it, in the second phase where the horse pushes off with the hind legs, his back will hit your bottom and throw you up and/or forward.

In the first phase, the horse is basically rearing, and that's easy to ride no matter what you do.









It's this next phase, where the horse pushes powerfully off the ground with the hind legs that can throw you forward if your bum is on the saddle instead of in the air. Which is why higher jumps mean most riders use shorter stirrups, so they can get high enough in the beginning that the horse won't hit them with the saddle if they push off and throw the back up very far. 









The security is really mainly about the landing, and this person is unlikely to land centered over her horse's back and in the stirrups _because she got thrown up in that second phase_.









On a good jump, that big bouncy motion feels like a big canter stride, and you think "I could sit that, no problem." On a bad jump, that hind end pops up and the saddle hits you in the butt so fast and hard that you get bumped up high and lose your stirrups. 





Strangely, it's not too difficult to jump bareback but it is difficult to sit down jumping on a horse with a saddle. Somehow your body can feel the muscles moving bareback and your timing works out much better so you can flow over the jump with the horse. The landing can be brutal, however, if the horse's spine is not well padded.

It was interesting to see in the video which different horses needed the different seats. The driving seat was for two diverse types: Either very stocky, sluggish horses that needed pushing into the jump, or for very hot, high headed horses like the one Pessoa was riding. Hickstead also needed that seat. For horses that get too strong or hot, the rider needed that leverage to keep them striding well, and also I am guessing the horses occasionally stop suddenly before a jump and the rider is less likely to get thrown forward. When I watched Hickstead jump at the Equestrian Games, he would sometimes bolt off right after a jump and the rider would be sitting back and getting him slower.

In my opinion, the full seat is for those horses that have a very smooth, rounded gait and the rider can stay in contact without getting bumped out of the saddle. I usually ride in a half or light seat, but with long stirrups. Even if it might seem less secure to be somewhat off the saddle, it is more secure to avoid getting bumped by the horse's back. The horse's back is so often what gets you - if you hit rough ground, or the horse bolts forward, bucks, trips, if you are sitting down you will get bumped out of position by the saddle. If your seat is off the saddle, things like jumping, bucking, etc don't throw you out of position.
My friend here has a very secure half seat here, much more so than if she were sitting down.


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## bsms

gottatrot said:


> ...In my opinion, the full seat is for those horses that have a very smooth, rounded gait and the rider can stay in contact without getting bumped out of the saddle. I usually ride in a half or light seat, but with long stirrups. Even if it might seem less secure to be somewhat off the saddle, it is more secure to avoid getting bumped by the horse's back. The horse's back is so often what gets you - if you hit rough ground, or the horse bolts forward, bucks, trips, if you are sitting down you will get bumped out of position by the saddle...


I disagree, and here is why...

The horse's pivot point for its back is its center of gravity, somewhere around the withers.

As I shorten my stirrups - and I never get them short enough to be where the cavalry and Littauer taught - WHERE I sit is affected. As my stirrups come up higher, I have two choices: bring my heels back under my hip in what I call the "Squashed leg dressage seat" or leave my stirrup straps hanging straight down - as Littauer taught. Not surprisingly, I prefer to keep my stirrup straps hanging straight. Doing that forces my rump to the rear. It MUST. It has no where else to go except up and out of the saddle.

Thus raising my stirrups moves my rump to the rear, and I need to lean forward (forward seat) to get my center of gravity over my heels - a 'balanced seat'.

But the reverse also takes place. As I lengthen my stirrups, my seat must come forward in the saddle. By the time I go to this extreme (not often), I'm scooted way far forward:








​ 
If my stirrups were hung for it, I could use our leather seat shrinker to shrink my saddle down to a 13.5-14" seat and feel very good in the saddle - except my stirrups are NOT hung for it, so I end up with a too-short longitudinal base of support.

The result is a trade-off. The longer and more forward my leg, the closer I am to the horse's area of least movement. The more I raise my stirrups, the more my rump is moved back - into an area where the horse's back moves more! AND as my legs go forward, my legs start to wrap around the horse's center of gravity.

If you take that 1880s cowboy and remove the rifle, etc, and then the horse bucks or does any other movement which lifts the rear of the horse's back - "_if you hit rough ground, or the horse bolts forward, bucks, trips_" - then except for the bolt, the cowboy is merely going to be thrust into his stirrups. And that is how it feels when Bandit stumbles or bucks - I am thrust into my stirrups, but it isn't a violent motion because his back doesn't have far to rotate since my seat is well forward. The exception is a bolt, of course, but my western saddle has a 4" cantle and the old ones had up to a 9" cantle - no one slid back when using the old style western saddle!

Now, what would happen if I had an English saddle? I don't know. With my Aussie saddle, the poleys are the safety catch. If the horse does anything that would thrust my hips forward, the 4" Mickey Mouse ears will catch me. My GUESS is that if I had an English saddle, and it had any kind of knee blocks or padding, then a very stable lower leg combined with getting out of the saddle WOULD work best.

It also plays into posting. If I raise my stirrups to about the bottom of my ankle bone, then I both CAN post and NEED to post, or need to go to two point so my butt doesn't slap the saddle. In the picture of the 1880s cowboy, I'd bet he couldn't ever reach the stirrups with his heels without his boots. My normal stirrup position, used today, means the stirrups barely touch the bottom of my heels when I'm barefoot and legs as straight as I can get them.

Now...can I prove any of this? *No.* I'd LOVE to see someone study it, but no one spends money studying these sorts of things. The money goes to examining rollkur...

I certainly cannot prove anything involving an English saddle.

It is a good description of what I feel playing around with different stirrup lengths in a 16" western saddle. If I could do it over again, I'd get a 15" saddle, tops. It would fit how I ride better. Maybe 14.5.

I looked today at the textbook I got at Utah State in the late 70s. By chance, just saw it and got curious. In discussing saddles, he said it was common in the 40s to have an adult male using a 14" saddle and he argued people using 16" saddles or larger were sitting too far back. He also said the 30s saddles often had a 5-6" cantle, and then went to a very low cantle in the 40s-50s.

The saddle my daughter was borrowing below was a 13.5". I rode it the next day and it felt pretty good. She's 5'2" and about 110, I'm 5'8" and about 170 - but I ride differently than she does.








​I've drifted a long way from the approach taught by Littauer. There are elements that are much the same - forward center of gravity, stirrup-centric. I'd love to have been able to sit and talk with him for an hour about why I've changed, and how much it relates to the tack I use. But Littauer and Chamberlin had a low opinion of western riders, so they probably wouldn't even be interested...


And, just because it makes me laugh, a reposting of Slim Pickens jumping. I'm thinking the landing had to hurt...
​


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> If you take that 1880s cowboy and remove the rifle, etc, and then the horse bucks or does any other movement which lifts the rear of the horse's back - "_if you hit rough ground, or the horse bolts forward, bucks, trips_" - then except for the bolt, the cowboy is merely going to be thrust into his stirrups. And that is how it feels when Bandit stumbles or bucks - I am thrust into my stirrups, but it isn't a violent motion because his back doesn't have far to rotate since my seat is well forward. The exception is a bolt, of course, but my western saddle has a 4" cantle and the old ones had up to a 9" cantle - no one slid back when using the old style western saddle!


This is true, unless you are a person who has not learned to keep the lower leg forward and instead pivots it back. It is quite possible to pivot forward over the shoulder in a western saddle, as I've seen a few times. This sort of thing can happen in any saddle.








I've come over the back of a western cantle and english...both were quite a bit lower than 9 inches but the dressage one was fairly high! The problem was that I was still spinning from the 360 when the horse bolted forward. A twirling seat is more likely to slide up and over, I've decided.

All of those things you mention are why I don't see how anyone can say "this is how you measure your stirrup length." It depends on so many factors. It depends on the horse; their build, their gaits, your build and flexibility, the terrain, the saddle and more. 

On a rough gaited horse I will have a shorter stirrup. But that is not something I could do unless my joints were flexible enough to settle my body down around the horse. Otherwise I'd be too high, stiff and out of balance. Some horses will force your legs straight out to the sides, others make your legs circle around and overflex at the ankles. Some have a nice little groove where you just settle naturally. And depending on the way their balance point is when they move, you may need to have your seat out behind to stay with their motion, or that might put you behind their motion. This all can change also at different gaits, so you then you sometimes have to prioritize. If it's not too comfortable to sit a horse at the walk with a certain stirrup length but I plan to gallop awhile and know that if I have my stirrups too long this horse will throw me out of the saddle and I'll be jostling all over, then I may choose a shorter length. 

So my point I guess is that you might consider when riding different horses doing different things, and especially different sizes/builds/styles of horses, that you might have to adapt your stirrups to compensate. But finding that sweet spot on your own horse in your own saddle is very important.
I am very picky about my stirrup length. It can make all the difference between having a comfortable, safe ride and having an uncomfortable or out of balance ride. Some friends and I have discussed this, that oddly enough the better we get at riding the more particular we are about our stirrups.

When Halla gets very uppity and is bounding all over the place, we have these airborne moments where I have learned to NOT adjust the weight in my leg or else my stirrups will go flying. Then I have to coordinate exactly the moment in her stride where the stirrup is not weightless and I can sling it back over my toe. Then it sometimes takes two strides of perfect timing to adjust the stirrup just as we hit the ground, a little each time until it's back in the right place on my foot. I think a good rider should not fall off just because they lost a stirrup - at the moment they lose it, meaning they shouldn't be so unbalanced that the stirrup breaking off makes a difference. But depending on what you are doing, having one stirrup might make you fall off later!


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## whisperbaby22

Yea, it is interesting to look at westerns filmed in the 40's and 50's of how different the western saddle were. The weird "show" type huge saddles around today look odd.


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## bsms

The guy in the spook video nearly fell forward out of a western saddle. His legs were too vertical for what was about to happen so his horse almost managed to disappear out from under him. Lots of people say, "You should ride so you will land erect on your feet if your horse disappears - but in the REAL world, a horse who disappears from under you tends to move violently first, and one's position should account for that.

Western arena riding is becoming infected with dressage theory. Dressage theory works very well for dressage, and it works for a predictable horse "on the aids" - listening to and responding to the rider's wishes. It works for collected gaits. I assume it works OK for WP and similar sorts of riding. But it wasn't designed for riding outside the arena on a horse who isn't fully trained. And very few backyard riders have fully trained horses....

In response, more western saddle makers are boasting they have hung the stirrups for "equitation", or for balanced riding, obeying the all important universal rule of shoulder - hip - heel in a vertical line. It is what sells, after all! People are being taught to look for a saddle that will put them in that position, and western saddle makers are producing for the market. If one looks at paintings and statues going back thousands of years, it is obvious the normal rule of riding, for a few thousands years, has been to have the feet forward of the belt buckle...but modern riding involves far more arena work than almost anyone would have been able to get prior to 1950, or maybe 1980.

I still believe a good forward seat would be more secure than how I ride daily. However, it is also more work to do and requires regular practice. My family and visitors would have no interest in doing the work to learn it.

Part of me does. But I also think how much work it is compared to longer stirrups and just being willing to slide my feet forward in certain situations...and I wonder. My "arena" isn't much larger than a good round pen. Outside it, I will rarely find a place to go fast that lasts more than a few hundred yards. Off-trail, almost everything needs to be done at a "mosey". Jumping in the desert is close to suicidal.

That is why I increasingly feel awkward about posting my thoughts. My riding is very atypical because my riding environment is very unusual. My horses are rather unusual. My biggest horse now is less than 900 lbs. Bandit is crazy slender - feels like there is only half of a horse underneath me. Doesn't stop him from MOVING...but how much of my opinion is based on riding slender horses? Would some of what I do still work well on a thick QH? Would any of it work well for a gallop on a beach? A lot of what I believe may have NO application to riding in an arena, or in horse sports. I'm a desert rider. A Sonoran Desert rider.

I enjoy it, but is it such a small niche of riding as to be meaningless to anyone else? 

Maybe. :-?

BTW, @*gottatrot* , that is a GREAT video. Watching riding in slow motion if very revealing. My video player on my computer has the option of adding a slow-down button, so I can watch any video in very slow motion. I like watching some of the great riders in the world riding SLLOOOWWWWWWW. What I see often conflicts with what riders say and teach.

@*whisperbaby22* , I love old westerns. Their saddles tended to be very 1950s style, though. I gather there was a sport that needed a lower cantle, and those saddles were the rage for a few decades. I wouldn't mind trying one someday.


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## bsms

Made the mistake of reading another thread on another forum...and got depressed. Horses, the expert riders say, view humans as food dispensers. They don't actually enjoy being with us or doing anything with us. If we are consistent, they obey us. If we are not, they get confused. Humans are just humans to them. All they really enjoy is the company of horses and eating.

The idea that horses are social animals, or enjoy showing off, or take pleasure in doing things and get bored riding circles with beginning riders - all emotional nonsense. Cowboy didn't suffer anything as a lesson horse. No idea why he still hates arenas and enjoys trails. Bandit doesn't have feelings! That is just anthropomorphism. He just exists in the present. How he finds his water bucket if he can't remember enjoying a drink there an hour ago, I don't know. Guess it is totally smell. But how can he associate the smell with the relief of his thirst?

It is just my imagination when Bandit anticipates what I'll want and does it. And while I may enjoy the physical act of running or sports, a horse cannot. Horses would all just rather...stand around motionless, conserving energy.

Sorry. Doesn't match what I see in my horses. If your horse views you as nothing more than a food dispenser, then why in the heck own a horse? Why not buy an ATV and fill it up with gas? Why would anyone WANT to ride if their horse can't be enjoying the ride too?


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## phantomhorse13

gottatrot said:


> So my point I guess is that you might consider when riding different horses doing different things, and especially different sizes/builds/styles of horses, that you might have to adapt your stirrups to compensate.





bsms said:


> but how much of my opinion is based on riding slender horses? Would some of what I do still work well on a thick QH? Would any of it work well for a gallop on a beach?


I think a lot of this depends on the person and possibly on the saddle.

This is my Torsion, which is a treeless saddle I use as a catch-ride saddle, on Fyre, a 15.2h arab I would guess would weigh about 1000#:











On Fluffy, a 16.3h 1/2 percheron 1/2 arab who goes about 1250lb:









On Duroc, a 16.1h 3/4 TB 1/4 welsh who goes about 1150lb:









On Sultan, a 14.3h arab who is about 830lb: 









On Romeo, a 15.2h Morgan who I would guess goes about 1150lb:









On Phin, who might be 14.1h and weighs about 815lb:










My stirrups are in the exact same hole on each of those horses. I can't even think of the last time I put that saddle on a horse and needed to adjust the stirrups. The last thing I claim to be is an equitation rider and I think my seat varies between a forward seat (throwback to my hunter perch days) and a chair seat (thank you reactive horses).. but apparently stirrup length has nothing to do with my ability to use and/or maintain either of those positions.

The only thing I adjust my stirrups for is jumping, generally a hole or two higher. Any more what I am jumping is so low that I don't even bother. For your amusement,as my jumping form leaves a lot to be desired. :icon_rolleyes:

"appropriate" length stirrup, so the bottom of the iron hitting my ankle:



















and you asked what happens when something goes wrong.. it looks ugly, but it's apparently effective. here a refusal:










and this mare spooked hard at something outside of the arena and flung herself over one of the jumps as she fled. again, ugly but effective:











here is with my stirrups at my normal riding length, where the stirrup pad just hits level with the bottom of my shoe:




















At this point, I am so used to riding with long stirrups, just the act of shortening them a couple holes would have me needing to find my balance point again.. I am not sure how you can alter yours so much and not go crazy!


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## phantomhorse13

bsms said:


> Horses, the expert riders say, view humans as food dispensers. They don't actually enjoy being with us or doing anything with us. If we are consistent, they obey us. If we are not, they get confused. Humans are just humans to them. All they really enjoy is the company of horses and eating.
> 
> The idea that horses are social animals, or enjoy showing off, or take pleasure in doing things and get bored riding circles with beginning riders - all emotional nonsense.


While I agree that being consistent with horses (or any creature) is important, I sure don't think my herd views me as _only_ a food dispenser.

I will just sit here in my happy bubble of emotional nonsense.. with the cat curled up on my legs and the dog napping beside me as I type..


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## bsms

phantomhorse13 said:


> ...My stirrups are in the exact same hole on each of those horses. I can't even think of the last time I put that saddle on a horse and needed to adjust the stirrups. The last thing I claim to be is an equitation rider and I think my seat varies between a forward seat (throwback to my hunter perch days) and a chair seat (thank you reactive horses).. but apparently stirrup length has nothing to do with my ability to use and/or maintain either of those positions
> 
> ...At this point, I am so used to riding with long stirrups, just the act of shortening them a couple holes would have me needing to find my balance point again.. I am not sure how you can alter yours so much and not go crazy!


I really appreciate your post and the effort to show how it works for you.

I think I was oversold on the forward seat as a way to free up the horse's back and as a way of being "gentler". I also genuinely like the feel of trotting with my rump a few inches off his back, never touching the saddle.

But I also feel more secure and in synch with my horse using a setting where my heel barely touches the stirrup if I'm in socks. I don't know why I feel that way. Maybe it is my saddle, or my horse...or maybe I just need to stop anally overthinking everything and just ride! :icon_rolleyes:

The former moderator who introduced me to Littauer said she felt far more secure in a jump saddle. Said a western saddle made her feel like a total newbie. And it makes sense that someone who spent 50+ years riding and teaching jumping WOULD be most secure doing what they have done the most.

Yesterday's ride was a bit eye-opening. I felt pretty good about how I was riding Bandit at a walk and canter, but always worried that trotting was impacting his back. But he trotted huge yesterday. Don't know why and didn't know he was capable of it. But I guess if he feels like it, he is entirely capable of trotting with lots of energy and oomph, even with my stirrups where I feel comfortable. If my horse can have lots of "*"Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah" all ride long*" when I ride the way I am comfortable...then why the heck worry?

*Does it really get much better than being able to ride for as long as I physically care to do so on a horse with "Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah"?*​ 
I really appreciate the thoughts and the effort that has gone into the responses here. @gottatrot included! I know it is a pain to find and post pictures and videos and explain WHY something works for you, but this is really the only place I can get knowledgeable feedback. There is an 85 year old guy at church I'd love to go riding with, but he gave up his horses and riding a few years ago when he remarried. I've heard his horses were amazing, and I think anyone who knew him could understand why they would be...but he feels the risks outweighs the rewards at 85. I can't blame him.

This forum is about the only place where I can pick the brains of experienced riders. I guess I sometimes need to know it is OK to be unconventional - as long as one's horse is happy!

Except, of course, horses cannot be happy with us. We're just food dispensers! ARGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! :evil:


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## whisperbaby22

I guess I'm lucky that I grew up without the internet or a bunch of horse show snobs to tell me I was doing it wrong. I do not care what anyone thinks of my horse, my riding, my tack etc. For me, the most important thing in riding is how the horse is moving. Someone who does not know what they are doing can allow the horse to move better than some of these so called experts. 

And we are food dispensers, comfort dispensers, discipline dispensers, personal body grooms and massagers, etc.


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## bsms

A book arrived this morning. I haven't had a chance to read it, but I took the liberty of reading the end first. Although I like western curb bits, I can identify with what this woman wrote when I was 2 years old:



> Adventures Unbridled - Moyra Williams 1960
> 
> Away from horses, and especially from those with which I had been so emotionally involved, I think I can see more clearly the value of these adventures. I started with the idea of evolving a new technique in horsemanship - I finished with something quite different; an enhanced understanding of horses in general, a certain insight into my own shortcomings, and three intensely personal equine friends.
> 
> I had started with the intention of making my bitless horses do all that other horses did. I was treating Nona as a slave and plaything; a piece of putty to be molded to my will, an automaton which would only move at my command. It was not till I met Portia that this attitude began to change. From Portia I discovered the limitations of this outlook. I discovered how cramping is the desire to dominate, how many of the horse's own abilities are overlooked if man replaces by his own judgments the inborn intuition of the animal....
> 
> When I gave up trying to control Portia and tried instead to find out what she was, both she and life took on a different complexion. Here in my very back garden and under my own hand was the novelty and thrill I had missed while traveling over five continents. Here was the adventure, knowledge and inspiration which some people seek in outer space, others in the unexplored centre of the earth's surface. Here, in front of my eyes as soon as I opened them to it, was excitement enough for a lifetime...
> 
> ...Ridden by neck-aids, the horse is a free individual. It cannot be forced. It can not be controlled, but it can and does have to be guided. *It has to have everything explained to it, and its cooperation has then to be won over.* If it is asked to do anything absurd, it will merely say, "This fool rider does not know what he is talking about," and go its own way. It is hopeless to try riding by neck-aids until one has learnt the horse's language...
> 
> ...As soon as a person is prepared to follow his horse, his seat will come automatically. His only problem then is the eternal one of the educationalist and the politician - that of getting what he wants out of his subject. This is an art, not a technique; it is a skill, not a science. When to give in, when to press forward; when to exert authority and when to withdraw it - these are moments whose recognition cannot be taught by rule of thumb. They can only be recognized by the sympathetic - by the person who is not entirely engrossed in his own welfare. Only two laws can, I think, be said to hold for all occasions. The first is "Know your goal before you set out", for the unguided horse, like the mass of human beings, will go nowhere if left to itself. The second is "Don't give orders without a reason".
> 
> Can the attitude I have described not be attained just as well with the use of a bit as without it? Yes, I am sure it can. There is no magic in gadgets or in the lack of them. A good horseman can assuredly talk to his horse through the bit just as well as I can talk to mine through his neck. The only drawback is that he has less encouragement to do so. It is too easy to transform a request into a command. It is too easy for Man to be supreme.


Ping to @*Hondo* because he might enjoy it. Underlining & boldface added by me. She used a home-made all leather sidepull.


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## phantomhorse13

bsms said:


> I think I was oversold on the forward seat as a way to free up the horse's back and as a way of being "gentler". I also genuinely like the feel of trotting with my rump a few inches off his back, never touching the saddle.
> 
> But I also feel more secure and in synch with my horse using a setting where my heel barely touches the stirrup if I'm in socks. I don't know why I feel that way. Maybe it is my saddle, or my horse...or maybe I just need to stop anally overthinking everything and just ride! :icon_rolleyes:
> 
> Yesterday's ride was a bit eye-opening. I felt pretty good about how I was riding Bandit at a walk and canter, but always worried that trotting was impacting his back. But he trotted huge yesterday. Don't know why and didn't know he was capable of it. But I guess if he feels like it, he is entirely capable of trotting with lots of energy and oomph, even with my stirrups where I feel comfortable.


When Bandit was trotting out so strongly, what were _you_ doing (sitting, standing, posting, flopping around, two point, holding on and praying :wink?

I don't think a long stirrup and a non-weighted seat (call it a forward seat or whatever you like) are mutually exclusive. I can do both in the same saddle on the same horse using the same length stirrups.

Best example I have of my normal stirrup length:









And that gives me this:









or this:









or this:










Bet you can too! Just experiment with your position when you and Bandit are in a comfortable place. It may take a bit of time to develop your balance and some muscle memory, but you should be able to have several different seats without changing your stirrup length.


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## bsms

phantomhorse13 said:


> When Bandit was trotting out so strongly, what were _you_ doing (sitting, standing, posting, flopping around, two point, holding on and praying :wink?....


When Bandit started doing a really big trot, I...uh.......grabbed the horn with my free hand to get myself centered again. Then said a few words most ex-military guys know. Then said, "_If this is what YOU want, it will be what I want too!_"

And then rode it OK - leg almost straight and a bit ahead of my belt buckle. Kept the reins loose and after a minute he switched to a canter.

It seems to me just leaning forward at my normal stirrup length is enough to put most of my weight on my thighs. I won't say my rump never touches the saddle, but it doesn't settle or pound there because my weight is in my thighs. In any case, if my HORSE is OK with carrying me that way, and maybe even feels like accelerating more, then maybe that is good enough. Particularly when I normally ride 60-90 minutes and rarely get the chance to ride daily. He doesn't seem to find me a burden.

I really like this picture:










You look in balance and "with" your horse. At the same time, an unrequested change in direction or pace wouldn't put you face first into the ground.


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## gottatrot

Interesting conversation, thanks for letting us have it.
@phantomhorse13 is obviously a skilled and effective rider. And I hope my comments weren't meant as "I don't see how anyone can just keep their stirrup at one length," but rather, "I don't see how anyone can say this is how you know where to put your stirrup length." Which I have had people many times tell me about a formula to measure for flatwork or jumping, and I really believe this is an individual thing depending on horse and rider.

I _can_ adapt and ride different horses using the same stirrup length, which might feel a little bit wrong to me. Often I've ridden a horse for someone where they don't want me to change the stirrups, or I've been on a horse on a trip where the ride owners fix everything for you the way they want it and send you off. Funny how they will accept that you can canter or even gallop on their strange horse but won't accept that you might have an opinion about the stirrups.

And I'm not saying it makes me a better rider being so picky about the exact hole my stirrup is on for each particular horse. But I think the fact that it does make a difference to my riding is possibly due to the fact that I am a rather inflexible person (physically, not mentally) so it is more difficult for me to just absorb the motion if the stirrups are too short. And I definitely don't want to be on a spooky, rough horse with my toes reaching for the stirrups. But also I will say that rarely have I had the chance to use my own saddle on different horses, but often are in other peoples' saddles due to fit.

For me, it seems helpful to give beginner riders advice about the length of their stirrups and how it affects the riding position, but I'd never for example have an opinion on Phantomhorse or my friend on Nala or Bsms' stirrup length. Any experienced and thoughtful, secure rider has figured out what works for them and their riding style. But I find it interesting to think about the whys and hows of position to see if I can improve my own methods any. 



bsms said:


> Made the mistake of reading another thread on another forum...and got depressed. Horses, the expert riders say, view humans as food dispensers. They don't actually enjoy being with us or doing anything with us. If we are consistent, they obey us. If we are not, they get confused. Humans are just humans to them. All they really enjoy is the company of horses and eating.
> 
> The idea that horses are social animals, or enjoy showing off, or take pleasure in doing things and get bored riding circles with beginning riders - all emotional nonsense.


This is what frustrates me too. It reminds me of the recent thread about whether horses test us or not. My opinion is that horses are extremely smart, emotional, and complicated animals. It helps me to understand them by empathizing with what they might be feeling and thinking. Yet I feel too many people believe horses are in some sort of maniacal power struggle with us all the time, and are often devious and wicked. 

Animals often do things we don't want them to, and are extremely smart. Yet I always try to think of their perspective and when I do, I believe I see a difference in our thinking and theirs, in that we have this global understanding of our actions and I don't think animals think that "big picture." Such as, does a horse think that if he kicks his pasture mate who is also his friend, that the horse might get injured so badly he may die and then he will lose his friend and be alone? I think horses think more like "he annoys me, and I will do this to stop it."

They also have this entirely different view of the world than we do, having senses that work differently and better than ours. How can we truly understand how a dog senses, with the incredible sense of smell he has? Or horses that can see so much better in the dark, and perhaps feel the ground vibrations through their feet and sense changes in the weather, etc?

If I say something like this, people point out how smart horses are, and how they do so many things that require intelligence. Which I believe wholeheartedly, yet still don't think they plot evil against us or want to engage in a continual battle for dominance. Kids will throw rocks and not realize the consequences. If a child throws a rock and hits their parent in the head, the parent can be upset and teach the child not to do that. The small child will change his actions, but does he really understand that the rock could have killed his parent and all of the implications to himself emotionally and the changes in his living situation? Of course not. That doesn't mean a small child is not incredibly intelligent too.
Sorry for the rant.


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## phantomhorse13

bsms said:


> When Bandit started doing a really big trot, I...uh.......grabbed the horn with my free hand to get myself centered again. Then said a few words most ex-military guys know. Then said, "_If this is what YOU want, it will be what I want too!_"
> 
> And then rode it OK - leg almost straight and a bit ahead of my belt buckle. Kept the reins loose and after a minute he switched to a canter.
> 
> It seems to me just leaning forward at my normal stirrup length is enough to put most of my weight on my thighs. I won't say my rump never touches the saddle, but it doesn't settle or pound there because my weight is in my thighs.


Have you ever learned to post? It really does make trying to deal with an enthusiastic trot a lot more bearable long term. And I haven't found it to be an english vs western thing, unless you are speaking purely of the show ring (not sure if posting is allowed in rail classes that do an extended jog?). The handful of times I have worked cattle from horseback, you better believe every rider was posting unless they were actively throwing a rope. Phin's jog is like a pogo stick - I would need to be holding the horn with one hand and the cantle with the other if I wanted to stay on him sitting an active trot!!

My goal in riding now is to stay on top, try to stay out of my horse's way, and hopefully have a lot of fun while doing it. I, too, like that cantering pic, though I can only imagine the review it would get when compared to 'proper' riding.


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## phantomhorse13

gottatrot said:


> And I'm not saying it makes me a better rider being so picky about the exact hole my stirrup is on for each particular horse. But I think the fact that it does make a difference to my riding is possibly due to the fact that I am a rather inflexible person (physically, not mentally) so it is more difficult for me to just absorb the motion if the stirrups are too short. And I definitely don't want to be on a spooky, rough horse with my toes reaching for the stirrups.
> 
> Any experienced and thoughtful, secure rider has figured out what works for them and their riding style.


Oh boy, my post about the same length stirrup on difference horses wasn't meant to say you were doing something wrong, but perhaps to gently suggest to @bsms that he was overthinking things a touch and perhaps not doing himself any favors by changing his stirrups around so frequently. 

I agree that most experienced riders have figured out what they do or don't like and generally for good reason. I am glad not to have someone imposing their guidelines on me, as my body is much less flexible and forgiving now than it used to be. [Over the winter, I did a training ride in Lani's saddle, which has the leathers taped, so not adjustable. They were about 2 holes shorter than I normally ride, so what would be standard english length. I felt like I was posting 3 feet off the horse's back and it was a tossup about whether my knees or my ankles were screaming the loudest. To heck with proper!!]


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## bsms

I was taught posting back when I took a quarter of lessons at Utah State in the late 70s. The old cowboy - well, he seemed old to me at the time - said posting was how you got somewhere with a horse who could still work once you arrived.

Rarely do it here, though. It is a function of where I live and ride. We may trot for 100-150 yards, and then need to slow for the rocks. And then speed up again. Then go off trail at a walk, so sitting. For the short time we're trotting, I figure I might as well just stand. Two point for a mile sounds painful, but I'm lucky if we can go 1/4 mile at a trot. 



phantomhorse13 said:


> ...My goal in riding now is to stay on top, try to stay out of my horse's way, and hopefully have a lot of fun while doing it...


That is a pretty good summary of what I think riding is all about.


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## bsms

All three went out today. My DIL took pictures and video.

Spent much of the ride teaching Bandit about neighborhoods. Went on some paved roads he hadn't seen before. He startled a few times, and balked a few, but always started moving again after 30 seconds or so of looking. I'll start with her selfie on Cowboy:








​ 
Not sure what we were doing here, but I guess I was happy with Bandit...we were moving down a dirt road here:








​ 
Bandit looking and moving. It is a solid shank curb, so turning his head has tightened the far rein and rotated the bit. But pain? If so, Bandit doesn't seem to care. He's busy LOOKING:








​ 
By this time, Bandit was obviously not interested in waiting forever for the others to catch up:








​ 
Bandit gets a chance to eat...waiting isn't so bad if you can eat while waiting!








​ 
Trooper & my youngest, as we come home via a wash. Bandit used to freak if he saw this wash - too narrow for him - but he's obviously gotten over his claustrophobia...we're in the background. Trooper, as always, is our Point & Go horse:









​After 75 minutes, I decided my horse & I were ready for a break - and since we were 5 minutes from home, this became "Miller Time"!








​
Overall...a fun day. The solid shank curb rotates more often than I had realized, but Bandit relaxes in this bit like he does in no other. Not real happy about the amount of rotation, but if my HORSE acts happy...who am I to insist he use a bit he fusses in instead of one where he relaxes?

Oh...and EVERY SINGLE PICTURE showed my left foot pointing out 20-30 degrees further than my right. Happens in the shower too, so I guess it is something about how I'm built. I also lean...which has been true since Mia exploded during a dismount in Jan 2009. All these years later I still seem to be protecting the injured side of my back. Looks HORRIBLE...but if that is me relaxed, then so be it. Better relaxed and wrong than tense and right!

And wonderful creatures that they are, both Mia and now Bandit totally ignore my lean. It is who I am, and they see no reason to worry about what I cannot control. It has taken me a long time to return the favor to them!


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## bsms

Video of walking in the wash coming home. The horses have been here a bajillion times. Great job by my DIL riding and holding the camera in her hand at the same time!


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## bsms

Gotta figure out what to do with my right hand! Hold the horn? DORK! By my side? Unbalanced! Use two hands on the reins? Folks will freak! Oh well...may use two hands more.

Excellent job by my DIL riding Cowboy's "I'm Gonna Make You Pee Blood" trot and filming with a hand held camera!


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## phantomhorse13

bsms said:


> Gotta figure out what to do with my right hand! Hold the horn? DORK! By my side? Unbalanced! Use two hands on the reins? Folks will freak!


:rofl:

I tend to either rest my free hand on my thigh or else my hand is flapping around in the general vicinity it would be if I was using two hands on the reins. That seems to keep my shoulders more square than just letting it drop straight down. Of course where I ride, I am often using it to deflect branches (or spiderwebs!), so I don't notice it being without purpose so much.

I enjoyed seeing the terrain you ride in. The washes look lovely but not so sure about the rest of it!


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## bsms

gottatrot said:


> ...It reminds me of the recent thread about whether horses test us or not. My opinion is that horses are extremely smart, emotional, and complicated animals. It helps me to understand them by empathizing with what they might be feeling and thinking. Yet I feel too many people believe horses are in some sort of maniacal power struggle with us all the time, and are often devious and wicked.
> 
> ... I think horses think more like "he annoys me, and I will do this to stop it."
> 
> They also have this entirely different view of the world than we do, having senses that work differently and better than ours...
> 
> ...yet still don't think they plot evil against us or want to engage in a continual battle for dominance...Sorry for the rant.


Your post has been percolating inside me. I just read some more posts on the testing thread. Comparing two rides ago with today's ride...was Bandit testing me two rides ago? Or did going back to a single joint snaffle throw him off? If you've gotten used to a smooth piece of steel in your mouth with a port, and go back to having a knuckle in the middle, on your tongue, might he have been bothered by it?

And in wanting to run in our little arena...was he "testing me"? I treated him like he was, but wasn't he REALLY just saying "Fast is fun" - maybe without thinking of the consequences of galloping in an arena that is only 80' x 120' at best, and smaller where he uses it? Was he "testing me" to see if I'd make him mind, or was he just enjoying the moment?

Back in his very simple bit, and with the chance to burn off some steam cantering on a desert trail, then trotting a number of times with 2 other horses at his side...he didn't "test me" today. He was very trusting, on the whole. And he tried hard. At one point, I remember telling him we were not going to race. But why would I or anyone else call that "testing me"? Wasn't it just a horse living in the moment, feeling good and ready to up the ante? And when *I* asked _*him*_ to back down, would it have been testing if he had said, "_But I'm faster! And fast is fun!_" Or just living in the moment?

In not pushing for his way, wasn't he being very giving? Wasn't he being the exact OPPOSITE of testing?

Why don't we appreciate them for what they give, instead of insisting a horse who lives in the moment is trying to dominate us? 

*Or do horses challenge people who insist on dominating them? *

* Do horses constantly try to see what they can get away with, when ridden by people determined not to let them get away with anything?*​ 


> "It was during the next week that Nona and I really found a true understanding. As I gained confidence in her and came to realize I could trust her in emergencies, I allowed her more freedom; concentrating less on the stops and turns, I had more time to think of widening her experience. *She in turn obeyed my orders with more alacrity as the number of orders decreased*. She began, it seemed, to take a pride and pleasure on guessing my intentions." - Adventures Unbridled - Moyra Williams 1960, page 42


The book I've been reading is interesting. She wasn't just bitless. Her goal was to ride using just her hands at the withers and neck to steer, slow, stop and guide her horse - while show jumping, chasing hounds, and racing other horses on courses involving miles. Most of the time, she had reins on a sidepull as an emergency backup. But she did miles across Oxfordshire without reins. Bridleless, in the heart of the UK, running across the countryside, jumping fences, racing and following hounds!

No, I'm not interested in trying Bandit without reins. He seems pretty relaxed in his new bit, and I can learn to work with him without taking the chance of bridleless in the desert. Horses are creatures who live in the moment and who may decide X is just too fun to pass up.Starting with Mia, based on Tom Robert's story of the Bullock Carts, I experimented with being less controlling as a way of having better control. Bandit is now a 2 year long experiment - one where I have been very inconsistent. It is just good riding to sometimes say, "_Not now. It might seem fun, but 'wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat' - so trust me. You'll get to have SAFE fun later!_"

But Baucher was right:

*'Let him think that he is our master, then he is our slave.' *​
We won't get a willing horse unless we are willing: Willing to let our horse make choices and have fun - in cooperation with the human, who knows when fun is safe and when it is not. If we insist on control, we'll get a horse who tests our control. If we give the horse freedom (when possible), we get a horse who welcomes our restraint. 

Written, of course, by the guy who two rides ago had a fight with Bandit. But in fairness, the fight was more me than Bandit. Had I been smarter, I think I could have won without the fight - and that is true winning!


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## bsms

Wish I'd had more slack in the reins than this, but I don't think Bandit minds. I wanted him to slow instead of accelerate, and he did. He has some tension, but it is the tension of a horse who is ready, not the tension of a horse who is unhappy, or whose back is sore. And, as you can see, I'm fairly big for a horse his size. Not outrageous, but he's a surprisingly small horse. He always feels a lot bigger than he is, if that makes any sense.


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## horseluvr2524

Just wanted to say that Bandit looks SO GOOD now that he has been with you for a while. He has filled out, doesn't look awkward anymore, and is shining with health and happiness.

Also, if I had a wash as nice as that one to ride in, I'd be going for a nice long gallop, spooky things in bushes be darned! Tucson is only a few hours from me. Maybe this winter, if you wanted to, my mom and I could trailer down to meet you and ride together. Don't worry, we won't be expecting or insisting gallops, canters, or even trotting. :wink:

The whole 'we are just food dispensers' doesn't explain why my mare was always more affectionate and much happier to see me and behaved better for me, than her full care 'food dispenser people'. Doesn't explain how or why she got separation anxiety from me being gone for a few months, despite food, comfort, and other horses.

Reminds me of the people who say 'dogs (or animals in general) are incapable of love'. Really? What about all of those dogs who gave their life to protect their owner, or who lay at their owner's grave for weeks on end?


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## egrogan

Loved the videos!


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> We won't get a willing horse unless we are willing: Willing to let our horse make choices and have fun - in cooperation with the human, who knows when fun is safe and when.


Excellent post! Now I will have to percolate on it for awhile. :grin:


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## bsms

horseluvr2524 said:


> ...Maybe this winter, if you wanted to, my mom and I could trailer down to meet you and ride together. Don't worry, we won't be expecting or insisting gallops, canters, or even trotting...


That would be pretty special. We have state land near us. Hard going at times for horses, but worth exploring. 

We're working on getting them used to going out further (and faster). If I can get Bandit truly comfortable with riding in human neighborhoods, it would open up some other areas for us to explore. Bandit is getting very good at cantering and slowing when asked...helps to do it often enough that it isn't incredibly exciting! Trooper seems completely content to canter behind Bandit and slow any time he does.

Still, today wasn't an easy ride. My youngest & I took Trooper and Bandit out for a road ride. All paved. Bandit did well heading out. We then rode on a paved road that borders a neighborhood, and he didn't like something about the neighborhood. We logged some 'trotting forward while looking 90 degrees to the side' time. Turned down a mile stretch (I think) toward home, but in an area where Bandit has almost never gone.

We were doing...OK, not great...until we were only 200 yards from where we would once again be on a road Bandit has been on a hundred times. But then there was SOMETHING going on in a backyard. I don't know what. Neither did Bandit, but he didn't like it at all. He still went forward though, and that may have not been good. As we got quite close, he started to get VERY nervous...and at the same time, a car came barreling down the road behind us at 50-60 mph. I couldn't see it, just hear it. And while most of the folks out here are extremely forgiving of horses, I just knew THIS car wasn't going to slow at all.

Trooper's shoulder was at Bandit's hip. I decided the car sounded close enough we HAD to push forward to keep from getting hit. I used my heels on Bandit, and everything went to pot. Bandit started doing some funky up/down/twisty thing, and as he twisted, I saw Trooper & my daughter go by with Trooper looking like Bandit. She's been scared of riding since her fall a year ago, but she didn't give up and had no trouble staying on Trooper.

As soon as the car was past, Bandit & I had more room, and Bandit did his hoppy, bouncy, working-hard-but-going-nowhere thing for a moment...then settled.

Without the car, I don't think it would have been a problem. With it, I think the horses felt caught between threats. They don't worry about cars normally, but it was cutting off their best avenue of escape. I have no idea if urging Bandit forward was needed or not.

My daughter defended Bandit. She said Steady Eddie Trooper made the first move, or maybe simultaneous with Bandit. I don't know.

It was all sorted in a few seconds, but something about traffic doing 50+ mph being part of the scenario did nothing for me. Happily, my daughter not only stayed on but seems to have gained a lot of confidence out of it. She stayed on, got Trooper sorted and calmed, and it all was over in a few seconds.

I started chewing Bandit out, telling him I don't get real directive often, but "*WHEN I DO, YOU NEED TO SHUT UP AND COLOR! EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE, JUST OBEY WITHOUT QUESTION!*"

Then my daughter started laughing. 

"_What's so [expletive deleted] funny?_", I snapped at her. 

"_Trooper_", she said. "_He's staring at Bandit like an older brother who is enjoying seeing his younger brother get chewed out by Dad!_"

I looked, and darned if he wasn't! Nerves forgotten, he was clearly enjoying Bandit's butt-chewing. And then I laughed too, and it is hard to stay mad while laughing. So we strolled the 5 minutes home, and I held up my arms and fists together for Bandit to rub his face against for his "end of ride face rubs", and all was over.

My daughter and I agree we need to do more of these rides. Dealing with human nonsense is Bandit's biggest challenge. If we can get past it, some good riding areas will open up for us. AND we could look next summer at getting a good trailer and taking Bandit and Trooper out together. They are sharing the same corral and are really getting along well now. Trooper is 18 and Bandit is 9, and they sometimes seem like Travis and Arlis in Old Yeller.

BTW - When we we leading them back to their corral, I told Bandit, "_I don't know what in the h___ you were scared of!_" 

My daughter responded, "_And Bandit says, 'If I knew what the h___ it was, I wouldn't have been scared either!_"

:winetime:
​PS -Bandit felt plenty big enough for me today!​


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## bsms

Just a picture off of Wiki ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waler_horse ) via the Australian War Memorial:








​ 
I love historical photos, but sometimes the history behind the photo includes pain.



> Australian light horsemen riding waler horses. The soldiers are of the original contingent of the Australian Imperial Force and the photo was taken prior to their departure from Australia in November 1914. The soldier on the right is Trooper William Harry Rankin Woods, 1st Light Horse Regiment, who died of wounds on 15 May 1915, one of the first light horsemen to die during the Battle of Gallipoli.


From the cited Wiki article:


> The preferred Walers for cavalry duties were 15 to 16 hands high (60 to 64 inches (152 to 163 cm)). Those over 16 hands were rejected for use in the South Australian Bushmen Corps. Unbroken horses, as well as those with grey and broken (spotted) coat colours were also rejected. The selected horses *had to be of a good type that could carry sixteen or seventeen stone (102 to 108 kg (224 to 238 lbs)) day after day.*


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## bsms

Made my 5th ride in the last 12 months with the Aussie saddle, this time in our little arena. I think I need to use it all the time so I can get used to how it feels again. Used a curb bit - Mia's old Billy Allen - with the reins attached at the mouthpiece, so basically like a western version of a Baucher Mullen snaffle. I had hoped to get 15 minutes of loosening up before my DIL arrived, but no such luck. 

Didn't ride Bandit much, but I figured he got some work in. Posted 2 of the videos to YouTube, below. She took a third, but it was more of the same. When I watch the video, it looks like my butt is slamming into his back, but it wasn't. I guess this is what is sometimes called scooping. The sheepskin in the western saddle makes it easier to grip than to slip, but the bare saddle needs to slide underneath me since my Aussie saddle, like my western one sans sheepskin, doesn't allow any grip.

I understand better what I saw in the English video. With virtually all your weight in the stirrups, you aren't slamming down, regardless of how it looks from the side. Your butt just polishes the saddle. It is very different from the feel of the western + sheepskin.

Most important, though, is Bandit is moving well. He used to fall out of a canter trying to turn within the 80' width of the arena. Now, he mostly stays in a canter covering about a 40' diameter circle. His canter is feeling very fluid to me. He only falls out when he feels like it, not because he is too stiff to maintain the turn.

No, he isn't collected and I don't care. He is fluid, though. Not tense. He feels fun to ride and is very self-controlled.

You can also see how simple my riding is. Not sure what the proper cue for a canter is, but I'm pretty sure shouting "_Come on!_" isn't it! Didn't use leg cues very often today, mostly verbal. I see no reason to give a leg cue if he can figure out what I want without one. When we're in touch with each other, we don't need many cues.











Got another reminder today of WHY Bandit doesn't trust me to notice things. He stopped and looked intently, head very high. I looked too, and about 15 seconds later a large coyote trotted down the center of the paved road next to us, totally unconcerned. Bandit wasn't frightened, but he thought it was worth observing - and he IS smart enough to realize I didn't smell the coyote.

Seems stupid to get upset if he sometimes gets worried over something he smells, when he knows darn well my smeller doesn't work!

I'd have ridden longer if my DIL hadn't been there. Got feeling very self-conscious after a bit. But it is really nice - not in the 'I love what I see' sense, but nice in the 'I want to know' sense - to watch the video using VLC Media player with the slow-down button. I can watch myself at 1/10 speed and see many things I cannot feel.

But mostly: Bandit felt fluid today, and I'm getting back into using an Aussie saddle. Good day!

*PS - I really feel better riding using two hands!

PSS - Bandit couldn't have been any sweeter today. He's turning into a pretty special horse!
*


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## tinyliny

it's cute to hear your REAL voice!


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## bsms

^^ THAT isn't my real voice! I've been listening to myself for nearly 60 years, and I don't sound ANYTHING like I do in videos. Some evil genius has, for unknown reasons, altered video recordings to make me sound like a total stranger!

FWIW, my DIL says HER voice doesn't sound anything like the video. It does, though. The evil genius only alters MY voice! :think:


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## tinyliny

I sound like some kind of deep voiced dike. Who IS that person, anyway?!


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## gottatrot

Really nice canter depart at 1:20 on the second video. Looks like a nicely balanced horse and some good riding. 

At least neither of you sound like mickey mouse on audio like I do. My husband always wants to know what his voice sounds like. Someone told him he sounds like Keanu Reeves...which he sort of does in a weird way, because his voice is about the same pitch and tone. But he speaks with a lot more inflection, and the actor speaks somewhat monotone so they don't sound similar really. It's very hard to describe to people what their voice actually sounds like.


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## bsms

At the 1:18 mark in the second video, I ask Bandit "What do you think?" I'm offering him a choice of trot or canter - I didn't care which. Had he indicated he wanted to walk some more, we would have walked. It was his choice what we would do next, although my preference was trot or canter. It turned out his choice was canter.

When the horse decides to canter from a walk, it makes a pretty nice transition. He controls his body. I don't need to use my legs or reins to set him up. He just does it.

There was a time when he would jump hard into a canter. He was ridden many, many miles with 260-270 lbs on his 800 lb back - 33%. While I don't like percentage rules, I think it is obvious that 33% is a challenge for the horse. Not surprisingly, he spent a long time bracing his back hard - very rigid - to protect it at a trot. And an 800 lb horse trying to put nearly 1100 lbs into a canter can be forgiven for needing to throw himself into the canter.

That is part of listening to the horse. If a horse needs to hurl himself into a canter, or braces hard at a trot, he's telling you something significant. Listening, to me, meant trying to spend time in two point and to get off his back as he trots or enters into a canter.

The trot is still a challenge for him. He can trot nicely. But on a trail, he often STARTS with a rigid trot, and then eases slowly into a more fluid one. The day we were riding into the neighborhood, he was very tense in the early trots - me too, since the Aussie saddle with 1" English stirrup straps is harder to ride in two point than a sheepskin covered western saddle with 3" stirrup straps! 3 inches of heavy leather hold the stirrups very stable, and the sheepskin provides tons of grip. Australian stirrups (no rubber pads) and 1" English stirrup straps - well, _they dance all over, don't they!_ And the hard, smooth leather of the Aussie saddle - no panel extensions down the front, no knee blocks, no padding or grippy leather to the front - it shows no mercy to any fault in balance.

The Australian's saving grace is the poleys. I know that if my horse violently spins or stops or stumbles, the poleys WILL keep me on and aligned with my horse. I've tested them. I could be drunk and they would still do their job! Sheepskin would help, but there is also something to be said for a saddle that emphasized balance instead of grip, while also giving good protection to the rider in a spook!

But back to my story. During the second half of the neighborhood ride, he started trotting on his own initiative. That is why we started opening up large gaps, and needing to wait or go back. As both of us got used to the saddle, BANDIT started offering 20-50 yards of trotting. His will, and I accepted it. Those were more relaxed, closer to a jog than a trot.

When I look at the videos, I tend to be appalled. I suck at riding! I'm a horrible rider!

But...Bandit's trots are vastly more relaxed than they once were. He trots better at the end of a ride than at the beginning. He initiates trotting - HE decides to do it. And he feels better about a canter than a trot (except on pavement). His canter transitions are nice when HE chooses them, and not horrible when I ask.

Of course, I'm comparing his movement now to when he was ridden at 260+ lbs! *I'm not as hard on him as that! - Some boast!* So maybe my conceit is just that Bandit had a hard life of riding prior. But he does seem content, increasingly, to trot relaxed and to offer canters. There is more spring to his step as we end rides, and he'll often offer a lap of canter at the end of our rides. So...suck bad or just suck some, Bandit seems content with me. The trend is our friend.

BTW - The friend who recommended the solid curb raised TWH as trail horses. He also rode them tons off trail. He calls them "The Cadillac of the Desert". And I can understand that. For someone weighing in the 170-225 lb range, a 16 hand, 1100 lb horse bred to walk fast & smooth, going across ground where trotting could run you into cactus - that's just about ideal. A 900-1000 lb Arabian would be a better match for me than Bandit. I'm not exactly huge at 170 lbs, but with western saddle and gear...Bandit is pretty light! He rides bigger, but this is NOT a big horse:








​ 
But Bandit seems content with me, and I'm getting pretty content with him. Don't know where I'd find a horse to buy who would suit me any better. He's kind of small for me and my weight and my awkwardness, but we can compensate for each other. But look at that picture, and imagine a guy who was at least 50 lbs bigger than me, and probably more, going for a 30 mile ride...


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## Zexious

^I think being a "pretty" rider is really only relevant if you're showing. If you're not, I think it's way more valuable to be an effective rider. Ideally they'd go hand in hand, but when you're not in the mindset of constantly critiquing your eq and you haven't been raised in a show ring, I simply don't think it's realistic. 

If you and Bandit are happy, I think that's the most important thing! I see a happy, alert horse in that screen grab. Enjoy your desert adventures!


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## bsms

^^ Thank you, @Zexious. I worry about things Bandit doesn't seem to notice. A former squadron commander of mine used to say, "_Happy wife, happy life_". The corollary* applies to riding. If Bandit & I can have fun, then we're doing something right.

Rode Bandit solo into the desert - briefly - today. It was hot enough that no one else wanted to ride. Not sure Bandit felt like going out alone. Used the Aussie saddle. Trusted the poleys to save me if things got interesting and just relaxed and enjoyed the ride. Bandit startled a half-dozen times, but didn't spook. He was TENSE much of the ride, though. Nervous tense. But he behaved very nicely the entire ride.

If he started feeling too nervous, I'd lean forward and invite a trot. Then sit back, relax, and let him work. He would slow down soon enough. But that way, I wasn't holding him back. I just made walking feel better than trotting...but he could trot or canter any time he felt.

He never feels too small when I am on him. The Aussie saddle may prove a better match for him than the western one.

*Note: I had to look it up. "_Its 'corollary' is a statement so closely related that it doesn't need to be proven independently._"


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> When the horse decides to canter from a walk, it makes a pretty nice transition. *He controls his body. I don't need to use my legs or reins to set him up. He just does it.*
> 
> That is part of listening to the horse. *If a horse needs to hurl himself into a canter, or braces hard at a trot, he's telling you something significant.* Listening, to me, meant trying to spend time in two point and to get off his back as he trots or enters into a canter.
> 
> When I look at the videos, I tend to be appalled. I suck at riding! I'm a horrible rider!
> 
> But...Bandit's trots are vastly more relaxed than they once were. He trots better at the end of a ride than at the beginning...His canter transitions are nice when HE chooses them, and not horrible when I ask.


These are all marks of good riding, not horrible riding. If the horse's body, movement and willingness to go and work improve, those are not the result of poor riding. Staying off the horse's back, even to the detriment of your own upper body balance during a hard downward transition...every cue purposeful without ones you didn't mean to give...staying out of the horse's mouth...stable lower leg...hands that give when you do make contact...not seeing horrible riding here.


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## tinyliny

this is a minor thing, but do you have a thinner pad for your Aussie saddle? that thick wool one seems to put the saddle pretty far off his back. Aussie saddles, like English style saddles, have built in padding. A person could ride in it with NO pad at all. a thinner pad might allow it to settle closer down to his back. He's a thin, narrow horse, and every inch you are off of his back (farther from his internal center of gravity) makes it feel more like you're in a place to be spun off if he spooks. 

I've ridden a few times with shims under an old western saddle, on Mac, the appy that spun me off 5 times. His saddle seemed to bridge a bit, so I tried shimming it out. just that additional lift of about 3/4 of an inch or less made me feel too far off his back. IN fact, I think that's why I like English saddles, in general; becaue the tree allows a person to be closer to the horse's back.

Bandit is really a beautiful fellow and seems happy under you. Yes, you are leaning too far forward but it doesn't seem to bother either him or you. And, you're out there doing and going, which is more than I can say for myself these days.


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## bsms

It is a one inch pad, @*tinyliny* . In theory, these sorts of Australian saddles don't need anything more than a cloth. But IMHO, the stuffing gets hard and could really use some padding. I could get a half-inch pad, similar to what I'm using but half as thick. It might work. Next month - let's just say I've blown my tack budget this month!

I like the poleys and basic design of the Australian saddle, but I always hate to recommend them because A) the quality you get for a given price isn't as good as with English or western saddles, and B) the underside of these saddles is probably stuffed with really cheap stuff. If there was someone who worked on English saddles, I could ask them to restuff the saddle I have...but I don't know of anyone who does that sort of work. Maybe in Phoenix.

I'll say this, though: At a canter, while it might look bad, it felt good and balanced. Maybe it is the leaning forward, so that the large majority of my weight is in my thighs. It is kind of like when trotting with Bandit today, when he'd get nervous. If I wanted to DISCOURAGE him, I'd sit the trot in a more upright position. Doing so kept my butt in more stable contact with the saddle - but it also meant more weight in the saddle, more weight to the rear, and Bandit would quickly decide he didn't feel like trotting. In a trot at least, I can be both more upright AND keep good contact between rump and saddle - but at the cost of Bandit's enthusiasm.

Leaning forward like I did the other day, my butt barely touched the saddle in a canter, and was sliding across it as it did. My weight was in my stirrups and thighs. Bandit likes that. At a trot, I was mostly paying attention to Bandit paying attention to the other horses in their corral 50 yards away...but most of my weight was in my stirrups.

It is a dilemma. I hate the way it looks, but I honestly feel pretty good in the saddle. I feel "with Bandit". OK, _a doofus-looking yahoo with Bandit_...but if we ARE with each other, then maybe it is ok to be "_a doofus-looking yahoo_". 

I expect to visit Scottsdale before the end of the month. I need to do some searching and see if there is a place that will work on my Aussie saddle's flocking. I'll probably try the 1/2" thick wool pad next month. 

But I may also end up going with my instincts and use the Aussie saddle the way the forward seat was taught in the 30s. They put a lot of emphasis on the stirrups, being "perched" instead of sitting, lots of lean, etc. As Chamberlin wrote, "_Even when fully seated at the [slow canter], no effort is made to keep the seat glued tight against the saddle...a large part [of the rider's weight] slips through the relaxed knee and ankle joints into the heels._" - quoted in "The Development of Modern Riding" by VS Littauer.

I'll add more tomorrow. Certainly today I kept glued in my saddle when trotting - but I was doing so to discourage Bandit. Simply leaning forward shifted the weight to my thighs, and Bandit responded by trotting with more enthusiasm.


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## bsms

The picture below is a set of 6 screen captures covering one second of Bandit & I. Even when I slow the video down, it is hard to see how things change. This gives me some insight into what we were doing:








​ 
If they are ordered:

1 - 2 - 3
4 - 5 - 6​ 
Then it is best to start with 5. That is the high point in the canter stride. I expected to see Bandit's back lift more to the rear than the front. I've certainly seen that happen in pictures. But Bandit is giving a smooth canter here, and his back remains surprisingly level.

In 6, he has started to sink, but I have not.

In 1, he is getting lower and so am I - with some lag.

In 2, he is at his lowest point. My stirrups are not short enough to keep my rump off the saddle and I make contact.

In 3, he is starting to rise and his back is tilting up slightly from the rear. I have NOT started to rise, but he is pushing my forward across the saddle in what feels like a scooping motion.

In 4, his body is rising and I am rising with him. I have finished the 'scoop'.

In 5, he is back to his point of highest elevation. Then in 6, I once again will lag as he starts to lower beneath me.

I vary in tilt from tilted forward (6, lagging his high point) to being almost vertical (3, again lagging his motion by about 1/6 of a second).

A far more experienced rider, in a record breaking performance, varies from tilted back to slightly forward - IIRC, these were about 1/2 second apart. And of course, her horse is making a much bigger movement:








​
Contrary to what I've seen taught, people do not absorb motion by flexing their spine. Littauer was right. Think of hinges, folding and opening. Hinges include ankle, knee and waist (hip). The world champion's leg stability is aided by her knee block. I have none, and my approach is more one of slip than grip. Rather than come down in the saddle vertically, I slide across it. That is why I don't feel a slap coming down - the slide spreads the pressure out over 0.1 seconds or so - longer duration, but lower peak pressure.

At least, that is my memory of how it feels. The experimenter in me would LOVE to be able to get saddle pressure readings, both at the bottom and the TOP of the saddle, to see what Bandit and I experience.

In my western saddle, with full sheepskin added, I have more grip than slip. Thus how it looked in a video my wife took last November - back when Bandit had a hard time maintaining a canter through the 180 degree turns, and tended to fall out of a canter on the smaller west part of our arena:






What does all this mean?

Beats me!

I don't see it changing how I ride. I would rather vary between tilting forward and vertical than between tilting backwards and vertical. There will always be a lag time. The Australian saddle might benefit if I shorten my stirrups a hole and see how much I can minimize touching down in the saddle...but I doubt it makes a big difference to Bandit. 

For my own interest, I may buy the video lessons Bernie Traurig offers. Next month - my budget for August is already shot to pieces! 

The Australian saddle does allow me to ride less defensively while still offering me decent safety if things get interesting. Traurig was coached by VS Littauer, so I suspect his teaching would seem familiar to me - in principle at least!

With Mia, I quickly dropped my stirrups lower and focused more on staying on at any cost. Bandit is a more predictable horse and he tends to startle now instead of spook. I can afford to try things with him that I just didn't dare with Mia. It might also give Bandit and I things to work on when there is no one to ride out into the desert with us. Bandit LIKES leading other horses thru enemy territory. He doesn't seem too thrilled about going thru enemy territory just because bsms feels like it! :wink:


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## horseluvr2524

> If there was someone who worked on English saddles, I could ask them to restuff the saddle I have...but I don't know of anyone who does that sort of work. Maybe in Phoenix.


:rofl:

Good luck! I tried! Closest dedicated english saddler/leatherworker I found was in Prescott. I didn't dare hand my favorite and only saddle off to a western leatherworker, no matter what they said they knew how to do! Especially when at the time I wanted it reflocked, and that is a very important part of the saddle and must be done correctly. Quite a bit different than just lining the bottom of a western saddle with sheepskin.

I also thought "Well, Scottsdale surely must have english saddlers, a lot of english riders up there". No such luck! Seems us english riders are aliens out here in the Southwest desert.


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## tinyliny

To me, you look more comfortable and in sync in the Western saddle, as opposed to the Aussie. I think the aussie puts your leg out more in front of you , making it almost a requirement , if standing in the stirrups, to lean forward. 

I have never been any good at standing in the stirrups, and staying that way. I tend to flop all over and punish the horse's back. If I can get in sync and sit down, INTO the canter, it works better, but to be honest, I totally suck at it because I don't have enough chances to practice prolonged cantering. 

Who is this Bernie Traurig?


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## bsms

@*tinyliny* , Bernie Traurig


> *Q: What inspired you to become a professional? *
> A: I loved riding and wanted nothing more than to make this my lifelong profession. My Dad, however, really wanted me to go to college. It was over dinner one evening with Vladimir S. Littauer, my coach of 4 years, William Steinkraus, the captain of the United States Equestrian Show Jumping Team, and my Dad, that Steinkraus informed us that there was a spot open at Gladstone, New Jersey with the 3-day team. Gladstone was the USET training headquarters and I would be under the tutelage of Stephan Von Vischy, the coach. This made my Dad comfortable with my decision not to go to college and instead , pursue my passion. Knowing that my education would continue at the highest level, my Dad gave me his blessings.
> 
> *Q: Your philosophy as a horseman?*
> A: Imagine you are a horse. Speak (communicate) in a clear, simple language and be able to read and evaluate the horseʼs reactions. Keep the horses friendly, you want them to like you. Get involved with the horse, study horsemanship, become a horseman.
> 
> About Bernie | Equestrian Coach





> Traurig represented the U.S. Equestrian Show Jumping Team several times, including the 1982 world championships in Dublin. He competed in eight world cup finals and is the winner of over 60 show jumping grand prix events.
> 
> He won fifteen grand prix and grand prix special classes in dressage and was short-listed for the 1986 world championship trials and the 1988 Olympic Games. He also won the high point dressage award in 1988 at the Olympic selection trials.
> 
> Note: I find it impressive that he did high level work in both showjumping and dressage.
> 
> https://eqliving.com/at-home-with-cait-and-bernie-traurig/


The Aussie doesn't put my leg out in front, actually. To the extent it does, it is MY riding, not the saddle itself. I could ride it with less weight in the stirrups and have my heel almost under my hip. And interestingly (to me), with less weight in my stirrups, my toes point more to the front. Not straight, not by a long shot, but I was experimenting the other day and realized my toes go out to equalize the pressure on my foot across the stirrup.

*It boils down to what do I want to do?* I read VS Littauer's book at maura's suggestion not long after I got hurt (Jan 2009). But I needed, first and foremost, to stay on a horse who might spin two full circles hard without warning - and without cause, that I ever discovered. Last told, she still did it about once a month in her new home - so maybe some wires not connected in her head? I chose to lengthen my stirrups to get my legs more around her, and that sent me down a path somewhat different than Littauer's teachings (and Chamberlin).

I've tried enough to know the forward seat as taught by them is harder work than just relaxing on my horse. But it IS a secure seat! You cannot do the riding the cavalries did in it with an *IN*secure seat!

Gen Patton










I've dropped into a lot of washes now, courtesy of my ability to trust Bandit, but never like this!










And if God is merciful, I'll never feel tempted even to do this:










And my neighbors might get tense about this:








​
I cannot imagine keeping a forward seat, per the US Cavalry, for an 8 mile gallop or for a 25+ mile endurance race. The back injury I got in Jan 2009 would probably cause my back to explode in pain long before the finish line of either!​ 
And it is in strong contrast to traditional western riding, which I have come to love and respect. I genuinely feel more comfortable cantering in my western saddle, and I think I do so better than I did last Nov. Why? That video was taken when I had shortened my stirrups two holes, and I find it easier to feel the rhythm when my stirrups are long enough that my feet are barely holding them on.

Lover of old books that I am, I got a copy of Margaret Cabell Self's "Horseback Riding Simplified" today (1963 ed). She recommended learning to canter without stirrups. Although she taught a forward seat, she felt the stirrups got in the way of learning to canter. Of course, I don't think she taught students on horses who tended to bolt to the horizon (Mia), or who have tried bucking in mid-stride when told to slow (Bandit)! But I agree with her. Put sheepskin on the saddle and lower the stirrups until they are barely there, and cantering feels easier.

But that is where I may need to poop or get off the pot! Western riding and forward riding are both integrated systems. You cannot take a few things here and a few things there, jumble them together and get good results. I suspect riding Bandit in a forward seat, and truly protecting the back of a horse who once did 30 miles a day with 260-280 lbs on his back, will REQUIRE me to shorten my stirrups enough that I can fully get off his back.

I don't know if it would be a good idea for rides through the desert. But I think it would help when we practice for 5-10 minutes in our little arena/glorified round pen. Bandit has every reason not to trust humans with his back. I've gotten past some of it. I would like him to think, "_When I trot or canter, I am free to do it the way I was born to do it. My rider wouldn't hurt me or get in my way._"

I also view it as cross-training, like a dressage rider learning barrel racing, or vice-versa. And I guess it was my first love in riding. I'm convinced BANDIT is capable of a beautiful canter or trot. He does it sometimes now! He is hindered in part by my riding, but also in large part by what happened to him before I owned him - just as my riding is hampered at times by memories of Mia & I.

But standing in the stirrups...*I have to admit, those one inch stirrup straps really let the stirrups dance around!* And the Australian saddle is all about slip - nothing for the leg to grip, just poleys waiting to catch you if you screw it up too bad! It is balance or fail!


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## bsms

Hate eating my words at any time, and particularly in less than 24 hours. They always taste extra nasty when fresh. But I got a lot out of today's ride in our little arena.

Bandit was not in a 'get-along' mood. Maybe it was the change to a new bit, very similar to the solid shank one but with rings at the mouth. I figured I could use it as a snaffle and maybe he'd like it. Well...maybe not. Not QUITE the same:








​ 
Looks like a good bit to me, though. Maybe I'll try it again. In a week or so.

Maybe it was using a wool blanket to lower the saddle - 3/8th inch thick instead of one inch.








​ 
Don't think so, though. After the ride, his hair was smooth and glossy and his back looked good. I'll try this again, @*tinyliny* . It felt good and I saw no sign it caused Bandit any problems.

Or maybe it was just one of those days. I have them, but I get to choose not to ride when I'm feeling like *Mr. Grouchy*!

In any case, when Bandit isn't feeling happy, then he makes sure his rider feels it too! I went thinking I'd try riding with stirrups one hole higher, and try hard to get just off of his back, balancing with the stirrups. The pictures below were in Littauer's "The Development of Modern Riding", showing Lt Col Harry Chamberlin demonstrating the American Military Seat, as it has become known:








​ 







​ 
Trot.

Slow Canter.

Fast Canter/Gallop.​ 
Now, what is MISSING in those pictures? What is missing in the pictures I posted in the previous post?

* TURNS!*

*TURNS!!!!!*​ 
In our glorified round pen I call an arena, trotting means we spend 75% of our time in a turn. Cantering, 90%. Sometimes 100%, if Bandit is feeling like Mr Grouchy and saying, "_You want a turn? How's THIS!?_"

Now, it is all well and good to balance in your stirrups when going straight. It is OK if doing a collected turn, I suppose. I'll never know. Don't think Bandit is real big on collection, particularly when he's Mr Grouchy.

But when your horse feels like turning hard, leaning in, the pretty pictures go to hell. When he does a 30-40 foot diameter 180 degree turn at a canter, I find myself bringing my inside heel back and around to hang on to him, and my outside foot straightens out to the front and side, so I can brace against the turn. I looked in the videos the other day, and it is not as dramatic a movement as it feels, but when you need it, the 'balance in your stirrups' thing gets tossed out of the window!

What is the point in protecting Bandit's back if, in doing so, I have problems STAYING ON his back?

And when Bandit and I canter down a trail, he won't go OFF the trail, but he feels free to shy to one side without asking me first. The last time, it was an empty bag of potato chips that had blown into the desert. _It doesn't pay to get too close to an empty bag of potato chips, you know! After all...SOMETHING had to EAT the potato chips. Right? Whoever ate the chips, he won't find Bandit flat-footed and unaware!_

So....by the end of today's ride, my stirrups were back to where they originally were. But now I know WHY I like them there.

* I'd rather risk pressure on Bandit's back *
*than have him suddenly cantering down a trail*
* without any pressure on his back at all!*​ 
Also, to check - I had my Buck Ranger folding knife in my back pocket today. It is a big knife, and it hurts to sit on it. I knew that if I smacked his back, the knife would smack me pretty hard. And I never felt it. Not until I came in, sat down - and remembered it was there.








​ 
And darn it, it ain't my gluteous maximus that hits the saddle. It's more my crotch - particularly given how much I lean forward. I'm old, but I haven't been gelded. If I was smacking down, it was going to hurt me WAY more than it hurt him...and it wasn't a problem.

*So the heck with my "first love"! How many people marry their first love anyways?* 

For the riding *.I.* do, on the *horse* I ride and *where* I ride, I need long legs wrapped around my horse, free to move independently of each other and do whatever it takes. 

There. Words eaten!

But at least now I know WHY I feel that way! 

And Mr Grouchy is back in the corral, swatting flies with his tail. Maybe he'll be happier tomorrow...

Good ride, though. Not much fun, but a ride that helps you understand something is always a good ride.


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## updownrider

bsms- you are taking Bernie's and Littauer's forward seat and comparing it to Charlotte's dressage seat. Charlotte sits deep and upright in the saddle. Bernie rides mostly out of the saddle with a closed forward hip angle. The positions are nothing like each other and will only confuse someone if they try to find similarities. I think of it as watching Derek Jeter and Michael Jordan. They both excelled at ball sports but it is not the same game, same rules, same positions, and most importantly, same goals.

Your leg and seat position is actually very good for a self taught rider. Except for that wayward left foot position, but you are aware of that. There is one thing I'd like to point out, if you don't mind. You are trying a little too hard with your arms. Trust that Bandit is not going to go anywhere in the arena when you are cantering. He is a very nice horse. When he picks up the canter, let him canter. He has to establish his pace and rhythm before you turn him on a small circle. It is only fair to him. Relax your arms and think about instead of forcing your elbows to follow his mouth, keeping your elbows relaxed and allow them to follow his mouth. I never thought I would say this to you, but you can even lengthen your reins a smidge. Again, Bandit is really nice. He trusts you. I say this with 50+ experience watching and giving lessons. 

I found a video of a very tall rider on a small-ish horse for you to watch, and see how he keeps his arms quiet. 

Adding on- this is a hunter round, and the riding in the ring is meant to show off the horse. I only used this round of Archie's to show how he uses his arms.






Sorry for jumping into your thread with unsolicited advice, but I hope this helps a bit.


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## horseluvr2524

Still don't quite get it.

So you don't like the military seat as much, or like it more, or? Are you advocating any seat now, or just use bits and pieces of everything, or?

Truly trying to understand your ramblings. 
(I get rambling. I ramble a lot, and don't make sense to anyone including myself. Well, excepting the animals, they always seem to know what I'm going on about).


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## bsms

Well, to a certain extent, my journal IS my ramblings. I try to figure things out, and work on them out loud. For example:



> Western riding and forward riding are both integrated systems. You cannot take a few things here and a few things there, jumble them together and get good results.


Well, it sounded good at the time. And it IS true, but maybe not in the way I was thinking.

It is true that taking one part of how something is done and applying it by itself, without the other parts, can be bad. It may be true that the real benefits of a forward seat may require shortening the stirrups enough to easily get out of the saddle, or that the folding of the body that results can add stability. If you try to ride a forward seat with longer stirrups, you may not be getting the real benefits possible.

But it is also true various styles of riding evolve based on things that might not be apparent. And a lot of what I do has evolved based on where I live and the horses I ride. I try lots of different things. Try to keep what works and discard the rest.

One of the things I keep coming back to is my need to stay on. If I started younger, or had meadows to ride in, or loved arena riding - and had a decent arena, not a rock hard & small one - I could afford some falls. But my one fall to date, during a dismount, has caused me years of pain. I ride on pavement part of the ride almost every day. And Bandit feels free to make sudden movements independent of my asking. I want that. If he feels more comfortable swerving to the very edge of the trail because of an empty bag of chips, I want him free to do so.

But if I'm going to ride horses without the same degree of control that other styles desire, and if I'm going to ride in places daily where my next fall could be my last, then I need to accept that many things that work for others will not work for me. Heck, the average rider is probably a better athlete and better balanced than I am. Maybe I need to know my limitations and be content to live within them.

What I seem to keep coming back to is that the real judge of my riding is my horse. If he is getting more confident, more willing, more agile and more interested, then my riding is good enough. If the trend is my friend, then that is good enough to be a decent recreational rider - a decent Craigslist rider of Craigslist horses.

So....the American Military Seat, like the dressage seat and the reining seat and the barrel racing seat, is something to think about, something to consider, but not something to imitate blindly.



updownrider said:


> ...You are trying a little too hard with your arms. Trust that Bandit is not going to go anywhere in the arena when you are cantering. He is a very nice horse. When he picks up the canter, let him canter. He has to establish his pace and rhythm before you turn him on a small circle. It is only fair to him. Relax your arms and think about instead of forcing your elbows to follow his mouth, keeping your elbows relaxed and allow them to follow his mouth. I never thought I would say this to you, but you can even lengthen your reins a smidge. Again, Bandit is really nice. He trusts you....


I appreciate the comments. I agree.

I adored Mia. But I ended up very defensive. Bandit IS a nice horse. Even when he is kind of grumpy, he actually is still a nice horse. And he deserves trust. I really like this phrase: "_instead of forcing your elbows to follow his mouth...keeping your elbows relaxed and allow them to follow his mouth_". Now, if I can just DO it!

The last 2+ years has been a time for both of us to learn trust. I'm certain Bandit LIKED his former owner, and I certainly LIKED Mia. But liking someone and truly trusting them are not quite the same. This quote really resonates with me:



> "It was during the next week that Nona and I really found a true understanding. As I gained confidence in her and came to realize I could trust her in emergencies, I allowed her more freedom; concentrating less on the stops and turns, I had more time to think of widening her experience. *She in turn obeyed my orders with more alacrity as the number of orders decreased*. She began, it seemed, to take a pride and pleasure on guessing my intentions." - Adventures Unbridled - Moyra Williams 1960, page 42


But I admit, trusting my horse, trusting myself to him, giving him the freedom to let him be the horse he can be...that is tough. I struggle with it. When I get nervous, I tend to get into his mouth too much. I know I do it. I hate that I'm doing it. Yet I do it.

So thank you for the comments. I'm certain you are right. It is one of the things I struggle with and hope to improve.

PS - Just downloaded and watched the video. I liked it.


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## greentree

I can just about promise you that if you relax your leg and let it fall back, you AND Bandit will find riding more enjoyable. Your stiff leg is locking up your hips, and Bandit is not happy about it.


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## bsms

Well...my stiff leg is to the outside of the turn and Bandit's movement improved when I started doing it. This screen capture from a few days back shows both my inside leg wrapped back and my outside leg resisting the outward roll:








​ 
Obviously, it doesn't happen going straight. 

And that is part of what I learned today - it helps to use each leg independently of the other. The advantage to being the rider is real-time feedback from the horse - what makes his back smooth out and relax, what gets him irritated, etc. Bandit, like Mia before him, is my riding instructor. I can gather ideas from books or videos, but it is his response that tells me if X is working for us or not.


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## tinyliny

Those rapid, shoulder falling in turns are ugly hard to ride!! I've come off at the canter in just such a turn. That's one reason I really like to feel the horse bent to the inside, but connected to the outside rein, which helps to keep both shoulders up and not falling inward. I wouldn't know how to do that in a solid curb, except with a lot of leg on the inside. Then you end up all tight and gripping. It's a hard one to ride, quick little horse. 

I watched some of Traurigs videos. Very interesting.


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## updownrider

Bernie has free videos on his Equestrian Coach | Your Online Equestrian Video Instruction Site 
Some are previews of longer videos that are for purchase or if you are a member, just a download, and some of the free videos are much longer. Every month there is a very good free video. It may be by a rider from a different discipline but it is usually a useful topic.

This month's free video is Riding Your Rhythm - Presented by Mandy Porter. I haven't watched it, yet, but I have watched other videos she has done for Equestrian Coach.


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## bsms

tinyliny said:


> Those rapid, shoulder falling in turns are ugly hard to ride!!... That's one reason I really like to feel the horse bent to the inside, but connected to the outside rein, which helps to keep both shoulders up and not falling inward....


I agree. When Trooper did it years ago, I was taking lessons - well, whenever my daughter was sick I jumped in and took one - from a former barrel racer. Her advice is what you said to do. It worked.

When Bandit did the same, I was using the western saddle. When I put my outside foot forward and out, he almost immediately corrected without my doing anything with the bit. However, when I tried that the last couple of times in the Australian saddle, it didn't work. Maybe the more rigid tree of the western saddle poked his inside shoulder, so he 'straightened' as a result?

Along those lines, I'll offer these quotes on the subject, from Chamberlin and Littauer:


> Keeping the horse's head turned inward while working on the circle is occasionally beneficial as a gymnastic and disciplinary exercise but should not be insisted on normally...It is unnatural, impedes the inside shoulder, shortens the stride and instigates resistance...
> 
> The pernicious custom, frequently seen in high-schoooling and elsewhere, of striving to hold the horse's body on an absolutely straight line while at the gallop, and the even more ruinous one of habitually bending the spine and neck outwards [sic] to conform to the curve being traveled, shorten the stride, cramp and annoy the horse. These faulty methods are to be carefully shunned in the practical training of outdoor horses. - Chamberlin, quoted by Littauer





> Littauer continues: I must confess that it was hard for me to relinquish the belief once taught me that the horse should be bent to correspond to the curve of the line along which he moves. I had preserved this tenet of Dressage longer than any other. Evidently it is equally hard for many other horsemen to abandon this idea, and even today some of them, by requiring small circles, induce the bending of the horse which according to Chamberlin is a "ruinous" procedure....
> 
> ...Much of what Caprilli taught and Krassnoff described, Chamberlin wrote. The same belief in free gaits, in absence of real collection, in not bending the horse in the sides and neck when making a turn, in disregarding the lead (that is, cantering false) and in riding on either loose reins or on soft contact, is there.
> 
> - VS Littauer, Development of Modern Riding, pages 243 - 244


Ruinous or not, it sure the heck FEELS better to me if I can get him to ONLY drop the inside shoulder when the turn is tight enough that there is no other choice. If I can get him to lift and curve merely by weighing my outside stirrup to the front...I'm going to do it. It isn't like we spend a lot of time practicing in the arena anyways. I'd do more if I had more room, though. My DIL & I were talking about it the other day. We both would LOVE to have an arena about 4 times as large, or larger. But...I need to be grateful for what we have. Not many have the luxury of ANY arena in their front yard, or of 3-400 acres of desert to play in free of charge just 1/4 mile away!

Along the lines of @updownrider comments, I went reading in Chamberlin's book and found these quotes:


> An additional reason for allowing great liberty of head and neck is manifest, when it is realized that the horse employs the gestures made by them to assist in all his movements, precisely as a man uses his arms in running, dodging, jumping, and recovering his equilibrium....Your judgment should regulate his speed prior to reaching either bad ground or an obstacle, but once there, as well as for several moments during the immediate approach, you should give him his head, maintaining, with elastic arms and hands, only the slightest feel on his mouth, thus allowing his ability and judgment while crossing.
> 
> *This oftentimes tests the rider's nerves and coordination, for every instinct urges him to grip the reins and tighten the arms*, the exact opposite of what should be done in such circumstances. In bad places, the rule to follow is: tighten the legs and soften the hands....
> 
> ...By contrast, a good rider, when his mount unexpectedly increases the gait slightly, instantly relaxes his arms and fingers for a moment. He then adjusts his seat and balance, after which he very softly collects the reins and regulates the gait. His horse is never afraid to accept the bit or lengthen his strides in response to the call of the legs or spurs.
> 
> Often, if the rider will lean farther to the front when he thinks his horse is pulling, he will discover that he, himself, and not the horse, is at fault. Riding and Schooling Horses pages 167, 168, 170


The underlined spots were emphasized in the text. The boldface is MY emphasis. When I get nervous, *"...the rule to follow is: tighten the legs and soften the hands....*" As in so many things with riding, my instincts are often the opposite of what will work best.

I'll add this, though: When I do try to 'straighten' Bandit in a curve is when he often gets most irritated. If I have the nerve, it would be interesting to try regulating the degree of turn and letting Bandit decide if he is going to lean. If I could do it, it would be very "Old West":


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## bsms

I plan to subscribe to Traurig's site next month. Even if I don't DO things his way, I think I'll get a lot to think about.


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## AtokaGhosthorse

Just want to say I've really enjoyed reading your blog, sir.


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## tinyliny

your quoted bit:

Keeping the horse's head turned inward while working on the circle is occasionally beneficial as a gymnastic and disciplinary exercise but should not be insisted on normally...It is unnatural, impedes the inside shoulder, shortens the stride and instigates resistance...

The pernicious custom, frequently seen in high-schoooling and elsewhere, of striving to hold the horse's body on an absolutely straight line while at the gallop, and the even more ruinous one of habitually bending the spine and neck outwards [sic] to conform to the curve being traveled, shorten the stride, cramp and annoy the horse. These faulty methods are to be carefully shunned in the practical training of outdoor horses. - Chamberlin, quoted by Littauer

Is I believe appropriate for riding a horse in a jumping situation, going hell bent over the country side, chasing cows perhaps. But, for the comfort of the rider, and for ease of staying balanced over the horse , and at slower speeds, the old fashioned asking the horse to stay lined up on the arc of the curve is more appropriate. The horse can definitely corner faster without that. You just have to be able to deal with that kind of speed and shift of trajection. Me? I'll take the 'ruinous' approach.


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## bsms

Didn't expect to get a ride in today due to grandkid watching. But there was a short time available in the morning, and my DIL agreed to try riding Bandit. I took 3 short videos of her. As of two weeks ago, I don't think she had cantered a horse in over 3 years. She did some riding with us 3-4 years ago, then didn't ride again until they moved in with us. It was maybe 2-3 weeks ago that we started cantering with her for short distances on the trail.

And apart from my youngest daughter riding Bandit at a walk for a couple of minutes a year ago, this was the first time since Bandit came that someone else rode him. It has been all-bsms for over 2 years...which raised the worry, will Bandit behave? Or will he try to "take advantage" of her? It may be significant that Bandit has only had two owners and two primary riders, both of whom like him. I was VERY proud of how well Bandit behaved. _I think he LIKES having someone who is 60 lbs lighter and 30 years younger on his back!_

It also makes updownrider's point about him being trustworthy in the arena. Also - went back to the solid shank low port curb bit. Bandit just seems to understand it. She is kind of all over with the reins, but it doesn't matter. Note: It was her first time trying to ride with one hand. 

Bandit is happy with slack reins and gets the job done for her:
















Like many western and self-taught riders, she prefers to lean back instead of forward. My lower back is so stiff that it hurts to watch...but it obviously works well for her. As a beginning rider, really, she did well - and Bandit did well for her.

Then I got a turn. This video is longer. I wish I had given Bandit more slack. I struggle to figure out what to do with my free hand.

But amazingly, for only the second time since I've owned him, Bandit did a canter to the RIGHT for more than 180 degrees of turn. He felt stiffer in that direction, but he moved OK. And in my defense, my rump touches the saddle, but with very little pressure. The western saddle is easier for me to ride, but I'm going to have to arm wrestle my DIL for it on a trail ride...






The big thing is I was *very* proud of Bandit. Mr Grouchy from yesterday (bit? saddle? pad?) was Mr Sugar today!

Now...if I can figure out what to do with my free hand...and why did I wait until 50 to take up riding? 

:winetime:​


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## bsms

Note: I've been told this type of bit should never be used with two hands. I did at times. And when you neck rein and take the slack out as you press one side of the rein against his neck, it rotates the entire bit around. In theory, it isn't a great bit.

But gosh darn it, Bandit hasn't read the books, listened to the videos or care! He really seems to feel good in this bit.


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## updownrider

Whoa! So much improvement! Congratulations! :loveshower:


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## bsms

This morning got me thinking. My Aussie saddle - does it not fit as well as I like to think? Does it need re-flocking (yes!)? Does a western saddle cover my flaws as a rider, or is Bandit just more used to the feel? 

So I tried another ride while DIL & grandson are out shopping, using our 15" Abetta that both daughter and DIL have rejected as acceptable. How did it go?

Bandit moved well. We did multiple laps of left-turn canters. We trotted right turns. I urged him on in a fast right turn trot, and he cantered right. Then did it again without urging. Then did it from a walk at his decision. Did a 180 degree right hand turn in about a 40' diameter circle, and cantered up the middle of our arena. Then stopped, uncertain of which way to go.

For me...not so much fun. The stirrups are too far back for me and I have to make an effort not to let them slide behind me. Had we been trail riding, I would have needed to keep a hand on the horn - to push myself back if Bandit stops without warning.

But I think I can adapt. It won't feel as good as the saddle I had made for Mia. Still, no getting around it. Bandit rode better in it than in the Aussie saddle. I can play around with the padding, but I think I can adapt. If Bandit prefers it, that is good enough. The only time I'll need it is if all three horses go out at once, and that isn't very often.

Also - for the first time ever, I didn't wear jeans. Tried Wrangler Cargo pants. They worked well, but feel very baggy to a guy who has worn jeans since he was 10. Made it easier to mount, though!


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## updownrider

Do you still have an English saddle? For your arena work that might help your position now that you are doing so well with your cantering. If I recall, you switched to your Aussie and Western saddles for security, but Bandit is such a gentleman in your arena you do not need the added security.

Your arena work is not meant to be your real riding because that is not your goal, but a practice place so you can do the fun stuff safely and less defensively in the desert. I know you would switch back to your Western or Aussie saddle once you leave the arena.

Just a thought...


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## bsms

I sold both of my English saddles a couple of years ago. Now I wish I hadn't.

Hindsight...


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## greentree

bsms said:


> Well...my stiff leg is to the outside of the turn and Bandit's movement improved when I started doing it. This screen capture from a few days back shows both my inside leg wrapped back and my outside leg resisting the outward roll:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> Obviously, it doesn't happen going straight.
> 
> And that is part of what I learned today - it helps to use each leg independently of the other. The advantage to being the rider is real-time feedback from the horse - what makes his back smooth out and relax, what gets him irritated, etc. Bandit, like Mia before him, is my riding instructor. I can gather ideas from books or videos, but it is his response that tells me if X is working for us or not.


I was referring to your ride in the wash. In the latest arena canter work, it looked much better. If you can use that inside leg independently to push him to the outside of the circle, while lifting that inside hand just a little bit, he will soften up and become even easier to ride!! Good work!!


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## updownrider

bsms said:


> I sold both of my English saddles a couple of years ago. Now I wish I hadn't.
> 
> Hindsight...


What, you sold a saddle?!? I thought being a tack hoarder was a mandatory requirement if you were a member of horse forums. :rofl:


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## bsms

greentree said:


> I was referring to your ride in the wash. In the latest arena canter work, it looked much better. If you can use that inside leg independently to push him to the outside of the circle, while lifting that inside hand just a little bit, he will soften up and become even easier to ride!! Good work!!


It didn't occur to me you might be referring to the wash video because my legs weren't stiff. They were stretched out part of the time, but I ride that way frequently. Not at a canter, normally, but often at a walk or trot. I refer to it as the "Old Cowboy" style because cowboys in the late 1800s rode that way VERY frequently.








​ 
Barry Godden described in on HF years ago:



xxBarry Godden said:


> Years ago I was taught to ride 'Western' by an old, bent bow legged Canadian cowboy who had been involved with horses since he was a kid. In the 1930s he had been a winning rodeo rider. By the time I met him he had formed a Western riding club in Surrey, where anyone who rode horses used the English hunting seat. Kennie's first job with new members was to teach them how to ride Western on his Western schooled horses.
> 
> The first lesson was to adjust the stirrups so that the leg was carried almost straight. Enough bend was left in the knee to just lift the butt off the seat of the saddle even at the trot.
> 
> The second lesson was to learn to ride with signficant weight carried on the stirrups at all times.
> 
> The third lesson was to move with the horse, if it leant over, then lean with it.
> 
> The rider sat upright and straight using the feet to compensate and resist the forces of gravity and movement by pressing down on the stirrups - which were almost being used as 'pedals'.
> 
> The rider leaned with the horse - if the horse went to the right at speed then the rider would lean over with the horse into the bend.
> 
> We always were to ride on a loose rein held in one hand only. The bits were all Western lever bits and we were told never to ride collected as the potential for accidental pressure on the horse's jaw was too great.
> 
> When we trotted - which was usually on level tarmac - we always posted.
> 
> If the weight was held on the stirrups, then the rider could not rise too high so long as the stirrups had been adjusted correctly for Western. The knee joint took the strain of rising to the trot.
> 
> The riding technique as described above was regarded as almost heresy by regular English riders trained by the British Horse Society. But it worked.
> My horse would accept being ridden English or Western...


It seemed odd that millions of cowboys rode poorly 12+ hours a day, 7 days a week, for decades. So I tried it, just like Barry described.

It obviously is NOT the was to canter nicely, jump a fence, win a race or move fluidly with your horse.

It *is* a very easy position to take, and very stable and predictable. If you want to cover uneven ground, while paying attention to a herd of cattle, while your horse just moves forward - it works. I don't know about an English saddle. Western with long stirrups, adjusted as Barry described, and with pressure in the stirrups as he described...it works.

I consider it a good defensive seat. It is deep, and it gives you a strong, stable position to tell your horse "WHEN AH SEZ WHOA, AH MEANS WHOOOAAA!!!" in your best Yosemite Sam voice. As an added benefit, it removes all pressure from the lower leg. 

Mia used to be a bolter. Bandit used to go fast with any lower leg pressure, although he has learned different with me. Trooper, who still has scars from spurs on his sides 9 years later, can go very fast if you squeeze. But a beginning rider who adopts the Old Cowboy position is stable, has no lower leg pressure, and if he/she drops the loop reins...any of my horses will slow. The horses I own now will slow within 50 yards if the rider just removes pressure - no squeezing, no hauling on the reins, no screaming - just get stable, hold on to the horn if needed, and the horses I own now WILL slow very soon. Unless racing...

Another thing it does is put part of your body, from the knee down, in front of the horse's center of gravity. Which brings the rider's center of gravity forward without any bending at the waist.

Bandit was used for relay races. In the open, with other horses going at a trot beside him, he can start getting excited. He was bred and trained to run for miles. He was valued in part because he wanted to win.

None of that was a worry in the wash. In the wash, I stretched my legs because I was tired and it felt good. Less than 10 minutes later, I dismounted and led Bandit the rest of the way home - because it just felt good to dismount! And I often dismount at least once an hour and lead Bandit because I think that is good for him. Dismount, loosen the cinch, walk beside him for 5+ minutes, tighten and remount. He always acts refreshed afterward.










Miller Time with Bandit a week ago.​ 
I appreciate the advice. Hearing different perspectives and ideas is good for me. I'm not trying to argue. I'm explaining why I do some unorthodox things. Something can be wrong, even - but if Bandit & I understand it, we can be happy together.

Let me put it this way: I don't know the correct cues for a canter. I "know" them mentally. I've read them. But I've never tried them. Put me on a properly trained horse and I would be lost. At 59, though, I may never be on a properly trained horse.

If I bought a well trained horse, I'd have to do what I had to do with Bandit - retrain him. Just a different sort of retraining. Bandit had carried a very big guy 30+ miles a day. His back was like an I-beam. He had been ridden in a bosal, with a snaffle added as an emergency brake. The first time I tried to take the slack out of the reins, with a snaffle, I nearly landed on his neck. And of course, I rode extremely defensively!

We both had to learn a new way to ride. And since I don't know much, that meant Bandit needed to learn how to think for himself and anticipate my desires. I've had to learn to read him and convince him bucking was NOT a good way to express frustration, for example. And that I can use a bit without wanting him to throw out an anchor!

The payback comes when Bandit learns to read us, so my DIL can get on him for the first time in her life and have him behaving based on her desires instead of applied cues...because she doesn't know how to cue a horse to canter.

Right or wrong, I choose to reject the idea of "body control". From the time I started this thread, and before even, I've argued that the horse's mind controls its body, and we influence its mind. When I say we should "Ride the mind", I mean we need to teach the horse that he WANTS to listen to us. Then we communicate our desires and he gives what his body is capable of giving.

I realize why sports horses, horse trainers, work horses, etc need a different focus. My approach would only work for someone who owns their own horse and is willing to reprogram any horse they buy. And Bandit and I still have tons to learn. I suspect we will be exploring - not testing, but exploring - each other until we part company.

In May of 2015, when I realized that Bandit was then more reactive than Mia, and that he had no idea how to ride in a bit alone...I had no idea if it would work. I would love to see Bandit someday become a horse a beginner could canter across rough desert - and I don't even know if that is physically possible. I know we could not hope to do it tomorrow! That would be suicidal!

But that is why I'm so excited about what I am seeing. He's 9. I'm 59. His legs were abused by how he was ridden before - just too much weight, too fast, too soon and too long for my comfort. His rider cared deeply for Bandit, just a different approach. But if Bandit stays healthy and sound, he could take me into my 70s - as a horse I *trust*.

Didn't expect to write so much. But after nearly 10 years of riding, I'm starting to get a horse I feel very confident in. Perhaps I can be forgiven. It has been a long road, and I'm just now seeing fruit.


----------



## gottatrot

bsms said:


> And that is part of what I learned today - it helps to use each leg independently of the other.


Talking about cantering, using your legs independently, etc. Forgive me if this is too obvious and elementary. I might be misunderstanding your discussion. But in case you haven't thought about it before...

When cantering, our legs do different things depending on which lead the horse is on and the size of the turn. When I took lessons, my instructor wanted me to know which lead I was on without looking. It was easy to tell on a circle, but on the straight she told me to feel which of my legs was moving more. 

The horse's barrel has a lot more motion on the side of the lead he is on. So we can't really hold our legs still or "together" on each side of the horse. The leg on the leading leg side will move forward and back. 
I always wondered if this was where the idea for cueing for the lead came from. You slide one leg back, while holding one at the girth, which is basically what the legs do naturally at the canter.

You can see in this video how the rider's leg moves more on the leading side. The video also shows eventually how his leg is more still on the opposite side.





When I'm making a sharp turn, my inside leg is the key balance point and my outside leg provides some counter balance. I believe that might be what you are describing? 

Horses that canter and gallop frequently learn the feel very well of your stillness and weight in the non-leading leg on the straight, and their body bends slightly away from the stretched out/leading side. Soon you can provide a slight bend the other direction and weight the opposite stirrup more to induce a flying change. Horses also can learn which lead to land on after a jump by your weight in the stirrup and seat in the air. 

I stopped using the "cues" for canter years ago, because basically that is the most rudimentary way to ask a horse. Horses can quickly learn more advanced canter cues just based on your seat and weight. The last horse I had to actually cue to canter was Indy, the draft cross my friend bought. He didn't yet know how more advanced cues so I had to squeeze and slide one leg back to tell him what lead I wanted. Bandit looks like he uses more advanced cues and doesn't need the simple cues anymore.

I'd say yes, in all gaits you can use your legs independently of one another. Walk, canter and gallop are not symmetrical gaits so your legs are not either. At the trot, one leg is slightly lower with the leg that is landing.


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## greentree

No, the cowboys did not ride poorly 12+ hours a day, you are correct. They did what they HAD to do. The horses did what they HAD to do. We need to ride the horse that we HAVE every time we ride, because to the horse, every day is a new day. One day it spooks. One day it doesn't. The more WE go with the flow, relaxed and happy, the more the horse does. Once WE quit placing blame (as in "my horse is a rescue, he was abused", or "why does this horse do this when none of the others did"....NOT saying that you are doing that.....and just respond to the horse AT HAND, on THIS day, everything goes much smoother.

Thos old cowboys did not analyze everything, or probably ANYTHING. They just rode the horse that was there. We seem to want a little more from ours, make excuses for them (saddle fit, bits, not enough padding on the bridle, etc., etc, etc....), and all of that is really unnecessary in many cases.


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## bsms

I'm more rudimentary than that, @gottatrot. Going straight, I don't know what lead we're on unless I look down and concentrate - which I never do, because cantering straight means we are in the open, and I'm concentrating on the terrain ahead and listening to hear if my daughter or DIL are struggling behind.

In a turn, I'm judging more by roughness of gait than anything else. And I found it helpful to read that both Chamberlin and Littauer LIKED a young horse to canter on the wrong lead, and Littauer saved asking for lead until later in training. 

In the video from Nov 2016, Bandit often fell out of the left canter and dropped into a trot coming around the smaller west end of our arena. He was welcome to do so if he could not comfortably make the turn with me on top. Over time, he dropped out shorter and shorter, and eventually continued the canter left.

To the right? He rarely took the correct lead, and often dropped out in any right turn. Too hard! At least, too hard with ME on his back. I was content to let him canter on the wrong lead going right, if he could hack it. My theory was that over time, Bandit would get better going to the right, and would eventually use the right lead. When he did, he would feel more comfortable. 

That really happened for the first time yesterday. And when I rode him in the afternoon, if I stopped and dropped the reins so he could eat, he'd choose to start going and pick up a canter - often to the right, and each time on the correct lead (I think...based on roughness). It was like he was saying, "_I've got a new trick! Look at me!_" So, of course, I did, praising him profusely!

He lives in a dry lot corral. He passed up the chance to eat new grass so he could canter, and often chose to canter to the right. He has a new trick!

If he doesn't get it right again for two months...well, he will eventually. He figured it out for trotting a long time ago. And if he feels a need to switch leads at a trot, he will.

I want a horse with an automatic transmission. We don't show. We don't compete. No one else in my family has even read how to ask for the correct lead. My daughter was taught it in lessons, but has never practiced it since. She rides Trooper, and she expects Trooper to handle leads. I expect Bandit to figure it out.

When we are on a trail, the turns will either be gradual enough or brief enough that leads are not important.



> When I'm making a sharp turn, my inside leg is the key balance point and my outside leg provides some counter balance. I believe that might be what you are describing?


Yes. Maybe even cruder. I'm basically holding on to the horse with my inside leg and bracing against sliding out of the saddle with my outside leg.








​ 
It is much easier now that I have sheepskin, but this is the saddle that forced me to use my inside leg and outside stirrup just to stay on! If I didn't get help from my stirrups, I'd literally start to slide sideways out of the saddle.

If I bought a horse with a lot of "buttons", the first thing I'd have to do is teach the horse to ignore them all. "Body control", for my family, consists of:

Left.
Right.
Faster.
Slower.​
Anything else is a variation or combination of those. I pick where we are headed and at what speed. The horse figures out HOW to get there at that speed. Or IF he can. If not, he tells me and we revise out plan. Automatic transmission.


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## greentree

Try stepping in the OUTSIDE stirrup in a turn, and using your inside leg to push out. This keeps you from leaning into the turn, and the horse from becoming a motorcycle, and leaning, which is why the circle gets consistently smaller. Lift the inside hand about an inch at the same time.


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## bsms

greentree said:


> ...Those old cowboys did not analyze everything, or probably ANYTHING. They just rode the horse that was there...









​ 
The herder in the picture had never ridden before being hired 4 years ago. The bridle on the horse has baling twine for a throatlatch. The bit is a Tom Thumb without a curb strap. My daughter, in front of the car, has an equally patched together bridle.

Both horses are doing fine. They have more experience herding sheep than either the herder or my daughter. And the herder's job isn't to ride well, but to watch and care for the sheep. They have an automatic transmission...VERY automatic:








​
Good saddle fit is important because otherwise they will sore the horse. The pros covered nearly 30 miles that day, mostly on pavement. My daughter did 26 miles. The next day, the horses were ready to get back to work before sunrise. I had to do figure 8s on mine, waiting for sunrise and the real workers to get ready to move out.

We just trail ride. Starting in human neighborhoods, then the desert. My daughter is the only one who has taken a lot of lessons. I'm the only one who reads books about riding. So we are extremely simplistic."_No spinning; No bucking; No biting; No bolting. Anything else, we'll work out._" It has taken me a long time to realize how different MY goals are from the goals of many others.



> Try stepping in the OUTSIDE stirrup in a turn, and using your inside leg to push out. This keeps you from leaning into the turn, and the horse from becoming a motorcycle, and leaning, which is why the circle gets consistently smaller. Lift the inside hand about an inch at the same time.


The leg use is largely what I'm trying to do, within the limits of my ability. Hanging on with my inside leg DOES create pressure against the horse. Stepping on the outside, by itself, isn't enough to keep me from sliding sans sheepskin, so my leg comes out and forward some.

Yesterday afternoon, I let Bandit lean in. I merely adjusted how tight a turn I was asking for. That seemed to work well, although it felt unnatural. The circle didn't get smaller because I simply asked him to stop making it smaller - but he could lean if he wanted. He over-leaned, I think, but he hadn't been given that choice before. It eliminated some of the fussing and he stayed more focused. My DIL might freak if he tried it, though.

_If I don't worry about leaning, will Bandit learn to lean only when and as much as he needs to?
_
Interesting question. I don't know the answer.

I do appreciate the suggestions, though. And sometimes, 6 months later, I'll try a suggestion I originally ignored. Every suggestion puts an extra tool in my toolbox.


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## updownrider

bsms said:


> Let me put it this way: I don't know the correct cues for a canter. I "know" them mentally. I've read them. But I've never tried them.


Ask a few different people and you will get a few different answers as to what the correct canter cue is, but after watching your videos and Bandit's behavior, I would suggest from a walk, sit up straight with no leaning, and use only your outside leg. Don't keep too much of a hold of his mouth, because if he jumps into the canter and he feels pressure on his mouth, he may get a mixed signal. Once your canter is established, then you can close your hip angle if that is your preference. In a smaller arena, I know I would mostly sit up, especially on the turns.

On a straight line, you decide which is your "outside" leg. 

Bandit is trained I am pretty sure because he naturally picked up the correct lead each time you picked up the canter, even to the right. 

One thing that you could practice in your arena is when you want him to canter from the walk, don't let him ignore your outside leg and trot faster. If you want a canter, and he doesn't canter, whether it is rider error or horse error, you ask him to come back to the walk, reorganize, and ask for the canter with your outside leg again. 

I will bet it takes no time at all before you have that upward transition exactly when you want it.


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## updownrider

gottatrot said:


> The horse's barrel has a lot more motion on the side of the lead he is on. So we can't really hold our legs still or "together" on each side of the horse. The leg on the leading leg side will move forward and back.
> I always wondered if this was where the idea for cueing for the lead came from. You slide one leg back, while holding one at the girth, which is basically what the legs do naturally at the canter.
> 
> You can see in this video how the rider's leg moves more on the leading side. The video also shows eventually how his leg is more still on the opposite side.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25n9Aim7NT0


If a longtime rider told me they can't keep their leg still while cantering I would say they need more no stirrup work and a lot of two-point practice to tighten their lower leg. The rider in your video seems to have spurs on. I would worry about spur rubs with a rider whose leg swings like that. Watch this video.


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## bsms

Tried for totally relaxing today. My daughter walked Trooper on a lead and I rode Bandit for a walk/trot around the block - just to get them out and a chance to look around. I used the Abetta.

I needed to work to keep the stirrup from sliding back, but things felt good other than that. The cordura has lots of grip, the saddle is firm, and its footprint is small.

When we got back, I shortened the stirrups a notch and tried trotting/cantering a few laps. It felt better with the stirrups higher. I could stay off Bandit's back at a trot. Cantering - he used the left lead going right, but he kept going anyways. I let him lean in a little and he did a 50' diameter circle on the wrong lead. Did some trotting, then got him to do a right canter on the right lead - and we called it quits. I want him to remember the right lead...

The Abetta started feeling pretty good. It has such a small footprint that my jeans were wet with horse sweat along the calf...which I liked. Very easy to feel Bandit. It felt secure on him and close to his back. 

I'll try to add 5 minutes of arena work to each ride. Bandit cantered and trotted while Trooper grazed. Bandit didn't care. But he doesn't know his leads. He knows a left lead in a canter, but not the right. He had to learn them in a trot - had no idea which to use when he came here. If he can figure it out for trotting, he'll get it for cantering. With practice. If I think about it more, maybe I can help him catch on quicker. 

The Abetta might work for me. Need to try it out on a 90 minute ride, though, to get a better idea if it fits Bandit OK.


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## bsms

Breezie Madden's video was of a different circumstance. Her's was a more collected canter versus flat out, and her style of riding differs. It emphasizes a secure lower leg.

The rider of the cob was scooping and not focused on a stable lower leg. More like me riding Bandit for one second of time:










If you look at the two pictures on the right, you see the two extremes during a 1" cycle. It felt good to me and seems to feel fine for Bandit. There is no grip there with the lower leg. None intended either. It FEELS like I'm flowing with my horse.

Littauer taught the Breezie Madden approach. I've parted company with him and adopted a more free-wheeling approach. My lower legs will move all over, depending on what I'm planning to do. Maybe under my hip. Maybe old cowboy. Maybe under my hip on one side and old cowboy on the other.

It is pretty typical in western riding to keep the lower leg slightly off the horse. Given my background, I enjoyed getting sweat on my jeans today, but a mobile lower leg is normal. This is slightly old school, but I appreciate it. It is probably more relevant to where & how I ride than Littauer was...


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## updownrider

Then the advice I have given isn't very relevant at all.


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## bsms

The first dog I owned on my own was advertised as a collie mix. When I got to the farm, the mother was clearly a Border Collie. But the litter! The one I took looked like a German Shepherd. Another looked like a Bloodhound. And others in the litter...well, I looked at the farmer.

He shrugged his shoulders. "_She was gone 3 days_", he said. "_Guess she warn't too particular!_"

When it comes to riding, I'm like that Border Collie *****. Brett Stone riding Boomernic winning the 1992 NRHA Futurity has plenty to teach me. So does Beezie Madden. But with either one, I have to adjust. My lower back is rigid. I cannot ride like Brett Stone. Nor can I ride like Beezie Madden. I can't be too particular!

My horse is also more likely to spin 180 and leave Dodge City at a gallop than what either of them competed on. Going down the wash about a month ago, at a trot, Bandit suddenly threw it in reverse and backed up, fast, 60-70 feet. Because my feet were out in front of me, the change drove me deep into my stirrups and deep in my saddle. Turned out Bandit objected to a dead branch sticking out the side of the wash. We eventually passed it, Bandit prancing and giving it the SNEE - Snake Neck Evil Eye.

But Littauer taught me the basics, and I plan to subscribe to one of his pupils - Bernie Traurig - for more ideas on how to free up Bandit's back and hopefully help him move WITH me the way he can WITHOUT me. But I have to remember MY goals. 

Those goals include letting Bandit make decisions, to include letting him shy sideways or jump forward or throw it in reverse without first asking me. It includes trying to sit calmly on him as he inches forward, knowing he may move suddenly and violently. Mia and Bandit convinced me the best way to control a nervous horse is to give up control, to make the horse a voting member - knowing I may not always like how they cast their vote. I would as soon die as give my horse a half-halt.

For me, and to get over the fear of riding I built up with Mia, security on a horse comes from the conversation we have, and my Golden Rule of Riding: "*We will do this together, or not at all!*" Security isn't based on a secure lower leg, or knowing and using cues, or position, or being directive. It comes from understanding my horse, and my horse understanding me. TOGETHER, we can face darn near anything.

For me, delight in riding comes from saying, "_You tell me, Bandit. Trot or canter?_" - and then accepting whatever he chooses to offer. I want to learn different techniques, but I need to remember my goal - a horse who obeys with understanding, anticipating my goals and maybe sometimes telling me to go to Hades. I would much rather deal with a horse who bucks than a horse who needs me to hold him together in a turn.


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## bsms

I rewatched the Beezie Madden video, both in real time and in slow motion. For show jumping, I'm sure it applies. For a desert horse...not so much.

It is rooted in control of the horse. "_You should always be able to stand on your horse. There has to be good submission. Stand with a little contact._" If you want a counter-canter, you should be able to tell the horse to do so - and the exercise is to get him "_to listen to my inside leg_". From the perspective of show jumping, I'm sure she is right.

But for a western rider crossing the Sonoran Desert, or perhaps more specifically for a rider of MY riding philosophy crossing the desert, it is not. When we go between cactus, only Bandit can place his feet accurately enough to get us to the far side in one piece. _*.I.*_ cannot hope to teach Bandit balance and suppleness, not by use of rein aids or legs. But _*Bandit*_ can learn it, given progressively more challenging scenarios, and given the freedom to decide for himself how to accomplish a goal.

Given my philosophy of riding, and my goals, I don't want to add "buttons" to my horse or learn how to control his body. Bandit controls his body better than I ever can. A walk to canter transition performed by a horse who wants to go from a walk to a canter will be better than anything I can cue him to do. If he understands I want a relaxed canter and is willing to do it, he can do so better than I could via the reins and legs. He is the master of his body.

Watching the video again, Beezie was getting a movement I would not want. And of course, she would not want to go jump with Bandit. She probably wouldn't want to ride him at all. 

I've learned a lot from Harry Chamberlin, even while rejecting much of his riding as unacceptable to me. He's taught me a lot, even though he despised western riders. I can learn from people with very different approaches, provided I keep my own goals and philosophy in mind. I need to "cast a wide net" when listening, but be careful about which fish I keep...


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## gottatrot

I agree with @updownrider that riders can benefit from having a "still" lower leg, but I'm talking more about understanding the physics of what happens during the canter rather than equitation. You can see in this video that even with a stable lower leg, the physics of the barrel moving at 2:30-2:35 or so is also moving Beezie's leg. It has nothing to do with our stability or strength, but rather it is just part of how the horse's motion unavoidably moves our body. That motion will be exaggerated on a choppy gaited, round barreled Irish cob versus a narrow sided TB or WB. 





That aside, 


> *Bsms:* Security isn't based on a secure lower leg, or knowing and using cues, or position, or being directive. It comes from understanding my horse, and my horse understanding me. TOGETHER, we can face darn near anything.


One reason I like riding is because it is an individual sport. None of us will ever ride quite like each other. We have to do what works for ourselves and our horses, and also for the environment we ride in. I like reading the philosophizing of Bsms, because I think it's a different journey for each of us. All of us choose which fish to keep or throw back. 

Probably the #1 thing that helps me deal with horses is flexibility. I know that every horse I ride and every time I ride, things will be different. It's best to have a whole lot of tools and knowledge to fall back on when things don't go as planned. Riding is sort of living in the moment, and that's one thing I like about it. 

What I enjoy is reading about how everyone's horses behave and respond to how they are managed. That's how I get more tools for my mental toolbox. I never cared about what lead I was on when going for a straight trail ride, until I began going longer distances. Then I realized if I didn't want a horse with one giant shoulder muscle maybe I shouldn't let my horse canter for two miles on the same lead all the time. :smile: So for me everything is "practical-based," not about what is proper or recommended. What works? That's what I'm all about.

For example, the WB I rode the other day...his owner said he often CAN go out on a loose rein and she likes to give him rein as long as he stays in a gait and doesn't just run off. Which he will do, as long as he isn't in a group of more than 3 horses, and as long as he's been ridden in the past week, and had turnout, and he is not with Cassie when she's excited. So I had none of those factors in my favor, so I only was able to give him a loose rein about half the time. I have ideals, and then there is what works with all the X factors of the day. 
I think we've all seen this, with our various bits, saddles, weather, riding buddies, and etc.


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## bsms

Watching the video above depressed me. George Morris grew up in the tradition of the American Military Seat, as he admits, and his book on the American way of jumping - don't remember the exact title - was firmly rooted in the American Cavalry's manual on equitation written largely by Harry Chamberlin. His comments on warmbloods versus thoroughbreds and his examples of good riding when writing in the 90s, versus what I see him approving now...what happened?

Decades earlier, Littauer wrote:


> But then there occurred in riding what has often happened before in other human activities - man's ambition to attain the barely attainable took over jumping; it forced many international horsemen to drop Caprilli's method and to search for other, more forcible means of making horses negotiate almost impossible combinations of obstacles. Today many of these horsemen will rightly tell you that Caprilli's basic tenet, that "there is little in common between ring riding and cross-country riding" could be altered to - "there is little in common between cross-country riding and international show jumping.' Show jumping has become a narrow specialty...Artificial jumping problems, and the corresponding artificial means of solving them, have placed such jumping just around the corner from the tanbark of the circus.


When I see this from the 1930s:










Or even my own approach to level riding:










Replaced with this, even while discussing the difference between good riders and great riders:










I find myself thinking, "Artificial problems lead to artificial solutions".

Admittedly, no one always has ideal riding. Bandit will get frustrated with me at times, and our riding can be contentious. He has bucked before and may again. But compare the video above - the whole thing, not the snap shots I took, to Caprilli's comments on the forward style of riding:



> The military horse must be essentially accustomed to the field, since it is here that the cavalry must perform in war uneven and varying terrain should be as familiar to the rider as it is to the horse. . . .
> 
> I call a field horse a horse that is of good disposition, calm and confident in the rider, fast and strong, accustomed to galloping for long periods over any kind of terrain, calm and alert in difficulty. . . .
> 
> Long years of practice and of continual observation have convinced me that the horse acquires these qualities without effort provided that the rider subjects him to rational and uninterrupted training, throughout which he tries to make his own actions the least disturbing that he can to the horse, and tries not to impede him in the natural development of his aptitudes and energies. ... By this I do not mean to say that one should let the horse do as he pleases; one should, instead, if necessary persuade him with firmness and energy to do the rider's will, while leaving him full liberty to avail himself of and to use as best it suits him his balance and his strength. From this fundamental and unchanging principle stem all the practical rules of equitation with which I shall deal. . . .
> 
> . . . the first rule of good riding is that of reducing, simplifying and sometimes, if possible, even eliminating the action of the rider. If the hands are used to turn and check a horse, and the legs to make him move forward and to give him resolution and decisiveness this is enough . . .
> 
> If natural work is required of a horse [field work] and not artificial [manege work] he will be better able to make use of his impulses, instincts and his natural balance . . .
> 
> . . . the horse who has rational exercise, during which he is allowed to balance himself as he pleases, not being punished with needless suffering, develops in the most efficient fashion, with great advantage to his way of carrying himself, and becomes docile and submissive to the wishes of the rider.


Caprilli liked more rein contact than I think needed, and Chamberlin approved in sometimes spurring the horse very severely to insist on forward movement, so it isn't as though I'm in total sympathy with either of them. But when casting my net for ideas, there was more fish I find worth keeping in their shoals than in much modern competitive riding - to include modern western competitions, which also depress me.

The military goal was field riding. I may not jump, but field riding is the bulk of what I do and desire. I'm old, my back often hurts, I'm stiff and didn't have much athletic ability even when young. I often create negative interference with my horse.

But *my goal remains to have a horse who moves under me the way he can when I am not there*. I will never achieve it, but good riding, to me, is about restoring the horse's natural movement, not imposing an artificial one.

The rare times I see an unridden horse moving like the one in the video, it is because the horse is angry, upset, or very irritated. And yes, I've had rides where Bandit (and Mia before him) got angry and upset. Rides like that are sometimes needed, something you have to press through. But I'm not seeing a horse who is being rewarded or being told he is doing the right thing. I see a very artificial answer because the sport insists on asking very artificial questions. I don't see a horse being given "_liberty to avail himself of and to use as best it suits him his balance and his strength._"

If that is the answer, then I want to ask a different question.

That is why a philosophy of riding is important. It gives one a basis for asking, "Is this advice consistent with what I do or what I want to be?" A philosophy isn't just 'what do I enjoy', but also sets limits based on who the rider is and who they are willing to become. It makes riding horses - animals who cannot defend themselves from man - an exploration into what sort of people we are, and who we wish to become. Riding horses is as much an exploration of our inner selves as it is a physical act involving another being.


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## bsms

This is from the book "Adventures Unbridled" by Moyra Williams:








​ 
Her intent as I understand it was to guide using her hands on the neck, with the reins & sidepull there for emergencies. She later tried riding without the reins at all.


> It was true that...the encumbrance of my reins seemed to be an outstanding recollection. Portia, untutored and untaught, had developed for herself a way of turning very similar to that of the American cow-ponies. At my signal, down would go her nose, her front feet would jam into the ground, and she would swivel round on a pivot. Frequently the action was so sudden and so complete that I had difficulty in keeping up with her. Often the momentum carried by my body was so great that had it not been for the knee-pads on my Toptani saddle, I am sure I would have sailed into space. When turning like this, Portia never showed the slightest tendency to slip...not only without losing speed but without loss of balance, As soon as I got used to turning on the edge of a precipice (as this felt like) I quite enjoyed it. - Page 144


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## phantomhorse13

bsms said:


> I would as soon die as give my horse a half-halt.


Why? What is a half-halt to you and what makes it such a bad thing?


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## bsms

phantomhorse13 said:


> Why? What is a half-halt to you and what makes it such a bad thing?





> "The main purpose of the half-halt is to rebalance the horse, asking it to carry its weight slightly more on his hindquarters and less on its forehand. Additionally, it may be used as a warning signal to the horse, calling its attention back to the rider to tell it that it is about to be asked to do something, such as perform a transition between or within a gait, make a turn, perform a difficult movement, or jump an obstacle."
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-halt





> "The half halt should be one of the earliest things that riders learn to master when learning to ride their horse. It is a vital part of riding well and being able to performing accurate, balanced movements with your horse...
> 
> ...When ridden correctly, the half halt can be used to re-balance your horse, to ask him for his attention, to prepare him for an upcoming movement, to ask for more self carriage or collection, to steady or slow him down, to set up transitions and, in fact, should be sprinkled generously throughout your ride from start to finish."
> 
> https://stridesforsuccess.com/half-halt/





> "Half-halts give the rider the possibility to activate the horse (a more springy stepping) without changing the rhythm, while in motion. It also serves as an introductory signal to the horse, before corners, before changing the bend and before all transitions. It helps the rider maintain the horse's centre of balance beneath his seat, without the horse taking the hand (leaning)."
> 
> - The Dressage Formula, Erik Herbermann, page 73





> "In a correctly executed turn or circle the horse’s inside hind leg carries more weight than the outside one. Before every turn or circle the rider should prepare the horse with a half halt and transfer his weight a little to the inside seat bone, in the direction of the movement."
> 
> http://www.usdf.org/edudocs/training/basicexercises.pdf


To summarize, the half-halt serves as a "preparatory command", in military speak - "Listen up, I'm about to tell you to do something." It serves to tell the horse to rebalance, bringing his center of gravity back under the rider. It asks him to "collect" in preparation for doing something. "_It is a vital part of riding well..._"

Oddly enough, most western riders go their entire lives without giving a half-halt. Western horses cut cattle, cross rough country at all speeds, rope and respond without half-halts.

If a rider needs to tell the horse, "_Start listening to me, I'm about to give you a cue_"...then something is wrong. If the horse is engaged with the rider, working as a team, then the horse should already be listening. My oldest daughter, before giving up riding, rode Mia once. She said afterward that Mia was obeying her thoughts before she could give Mia the cue. My youngest daughter once gave Trooper the cues to canter even though she was (secretly) afraid to try - although she told me she was ready. Trooper ignored her, doing what she wanted instead of what she asked. That is MY idea of how a horse should behave. Ideally.

If the horse needs to be rebalanced prior to a turn, or to slowing or accelerating...why? Mia could be trotting down a trail 6' wide, be startled, and swap ends so fast the poleys on my Aussie saddle would leave 4" bruises on my thigh. She wouldn't be the least bit collected, yet she could change directions so fast that I needed a hand on the saddle horn to stay on. She and Bandit have both stopped so hard that staying on was a challenge, and done so without first "collecting".

My conclusion is that horses can accelerate, decelerate, and turn any number of degrees with a force that will take the rider's breath away, if not his seat - and do so instantaneously. If the horse decides to move!

Now...consider my goal: "...*my goal remains to have a horse who moves under me the way he can when I am not there*. I will never achieve it, but good riding, to me, is about restoring the horse's natural movement, not imposing an artificial one."



> 'The horse is the sole master of his forces; even with all of our vigor, by himself, the rider is powerless to increase the horse's forces. Therefor, *it is for the horse to employ his forces in his own way, for himself to determine the manner of that employment so as to best fulfill the demands of his riders*. If the rider tries to do it all, the horse may permit him to do so, but the horse merely drifts, and limits his efforts to those which the rider demands. On the contrary, if the horse knows that he must rely on himself, *he uses himself completely, with all of his energy*.'" - 5 May 1922
> 
> -- Horse Training Outdoors and High School, Etienne Beudant (1931)


Half-halts assume the opposite of what I believe. It says I am going to impose my ideas of balance because the horse isn't capable of balancing himself correctly.

Meanwhile, Ive watched all of my horses, in my own yard, move with a speed, power, gracefulness and agility that I've never seen matched in a ridden horse. My goal is to conform my balance to my horses, not my horse's balance to my ideas.

Philosophy of riding. When it comes to use of the reins, I am very western in my approach. When it comes to balance, I am very traditional western in my approach. Balance is what the horse does. Staying on and not getting in the way is my responsibility. Riders set goals. Horses execute the goals. Riders do not tell horses HOW to execute goals. We are not smart enough.


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## phantomhorse13

bsms said:


> To summarize, the half-halt serves as a "preparatory command", in military speak - "Listen up, I'm about to tell you to do something."
> 
> If a rider needs to tell the horse, "_Start listening to me, I'm about to give you a cue_"...then something is wrong. If the horse is engaged with the rider, working as a team, then the horse should already be listening.


I use a half halt in exactly that way, as a 'hey, something is about to happen' heads up. I don't see that as my horse isn't engaged with me, simply that he may be looking around (as I often am) or thinking whatever thoughts he is thinking as we move down the trail. I don't expect my horse to have 100% of his attention on me 100% of the time, any more than I am paying 100% attention to him while riding. 




bsms said:


> Oddly enough, most western riders go their entire lives without giving a half-halt. Western horses cut cattle, cross rough country at all speeds, rope and respond without half-halts.


I don't believe this, as I was originally taught the half halt concept, as I apply it, from a 200-year-old cowboy who spent many years working cattle and breaking horses for a living before semi-retiring to the luxurious life of a farrier. That man had forgotten more about horses than I likely will ever know. I know people use the concept in the show pen too, using weighted reins so the cues are almost imperceptible to watchers.

I wonder if you are thinking of the half halt only in a dressage-type context: more pressure on the reins, restrictive seat, etc. I agree dressage people would expect some change in posture by the horse. However, my version of a half halt is generally to simply breathe out, lift my shoulders, and let my weight down sink down into the stirrups (and as I am generally posting or in half seat, it doesn't change my contact with the seat of the saddle). Depending on the horse (and the speed we are traveling), I may lift my rein hand slightly (but that doesn't create contact as I am normally riding with a loose rein). Maybe what I am doing wouldn't be considered a half-halt by DQs, but I don't know what else to call it.




bsms said:


> Now...consider my goal: "...*my goal remains to have a horse who moves under me the way he can when I am not there*. I will never achieve it, but good riding, to me, is about restoring the horse's natural movement, not imposing an artificial one."


If I have spotted a potential monster before my horse has, I would like to bring it to his attention before he is sideways into the next county. I am well aware my horses can naturally outmaneuver me, so do my best to avoid that situation as much as possible. I am all about natural movement, but I need to be able to stay on top!


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> Oddly enough, most western riders go their entire lives without giving a half-halt. Western horses cut cattle, cross rough country at all speeds, rope and respond without half-halts.
> 
> If a rider needs to tell the horse, "_Start listening to me, I'm about to give you a cue_"...then something is wrong. If the horse is engaged with the rider, working as a team, then the horse should already be listening.
> 
> If the horse needs to be rebalanced prior to a turn, or to slowing or accelerating...why?


I'm going to debate the half halt, but I mean it all in good spirit and I understand your points. They make sense. But I think there is another perspective.

The idea of pre-cues or half halts can be important to riding, regardless of whether you do them by taking up slack on the rein or using your weight in the saddle. 

It can be a downside to some western training that some riders don't believe in giving pre cues. I believe I have seen some very anxious horses that have been created because they are expected to always be ready for the rider's cue and to leap into action immediately when the cue is given. In my opinion, letting the horse know that you are about to ask them to leap into action can be very beneficial. 
Something that eliminates the need for pre cues is when the horse already knows what is going to happen. If a horse sees the cow and feels the rider's body language getting ready to go for the cow, those are performing the basic idea of a half halt.

It is true that many riders take it to the next level, and try to get their horse bunched up before every single change in gait, but that's not truly the concept of a half halt.

I agree that we don't need to rebalance a horse. But we might need to ask a horse to rebalance himself because he doesn't know what we are planning to do next. At speed this becomes very important. A horse that is galloping is stretched out and if he doesn't know that in thirty seconds I plan to turn sharply to the right and cut into the dune trail, he won't gather himself up and make the turn. I let him know I am going to ask him to do this by giving him a half halt and saying, "Plan to turn soon." I'm not asking him to turn yet - it is too soon. I'm also not asking him to just stop or drop a gait, because I don't need him to do that. But I don't want to try telling him two seconds before the turn that I need him to make that sharp turn. He might not make it at 30 mph, I might not make it, etc. 

I also don't want to give my horse an insane adrenaline rush by asking him to just suddenly gallop. If I plan to gallop at a point on the trail, I'll tell him a few seconds before hand that we're going to take off here, and then we are both ready. It also prevents me from being caught in a launch so hard I almost go over the back of the saddle. 

I've also ridden some green horses that don't have the strength and balance yet to carry a rider well. I want to use them athletically and exercise is the primary way to teach them to balance. But also I will sometimes pretend I am going to slow or stop them by giving a half halt, as a way to make them think about the fact that we might be doing transitions and to keep that in mind instead of just lurching around mindlessly. It can be too taxing to make them keep doing frequent transitions while they're learning and getting strong. But thinking about doing transitions can help them keep considering the rider as part of what they are doing.

*Edit: Just read what Phantom wrote...agree.*


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## bsms

phantomhorse13 said:


> ...I wonder if you are thinking of the half halt only in a dressage-type context: more pressure on the reins, restrictive seat, etc...However, my version of a half halt is generally to simply breathe out, lift my shoulders, and let my weight down sink down into the stirrups (and as I am generally posting or in half seat, it doesn't change my contact with the seat of the saddle)....Maybe what I am doing wouldn't be considered a half-halt by DQs, but I don't know what else to call it...


Going down the road, it would be common for me to give a jiggle to the reins, or maybe a quick tug on the left rein if my horse is getting focused to the right. That says, "_Hey, I'm here...and BTW, I don't think what you are starting to stare at deserves a stare._" If he shrugs off my jiggle or tug, he is telling me he IS concerned about it - and if I want to stay in union with him, I need to do SOMETHING about the thing. I don't know what to call it, but I do it almost every ride, usually a number of times.

If he is getting worried, I may get deep in my heels, maybe prepare my legs in anticipation of a possible spin, etc - all while still saying, "_Come back to me, we can do this together!_" Still no idea what to call it other than part of the ongoing conversation that is a normal ride.

Bandit had a relaxed back at this point. He was just curious, not nervous. But if he'd been nervous, I would have taken action to get his mind back with me:








​ 

When I use hyperbole and say I'd rather die than use a half-halt, I'm referring to this:



> The half-halt may be performed two ways, both of which are commonly used by various skilled horsepeople. The first is a split-second application of the driving aids, to create energy, which is then quickly and immediately harnessed with the restraining aids, and then released. The second is the opposite approach: an application of the restraining aids, asking the horse to "almost halt" and bring its hindquarters under itself in the process, then immediately applying the driving aids to maintain the gait. - Wiki, "Half-halt"


Either way, the goal of that process is not to communicate, "_I'm here. Stay with me. We do things together!_"

I'm using it in the DQ form, if you will - as a preparatory command to get the horse to collect so it will be balanced to execute the command that is about to follow.

I'm not saying that is WRONG. It may make perfect sense if your goal is for the horse to change gaits when it passes the letter "E". In fact, I don't know how else you could do it, if that was your goal.

But it is completely foreign to how I want to interact with my horse. It is as foreign as using spurs with every stride, as is often done in "western" competitions now. It is as foreign as asking a horse to bow his head when he backs up, as is common in reining competitions now.



> If a horse sees the cow and feels the rider's body language getting ready to go for the cow, those are performing the basic idea of a half halt. - @gottatrot


For the purposes of what I wrote, I disagree. A horse who feels me thinking about accelerating, who then starts to position himself to do so, and who then hears me whisper "Yes" and accelerates, is NOT responding to a "Half-halt". I don't know WHAT Bandit was responding to in his Walk to Canter transitions...but I loved it!



> The half-halt is preformed in exactly the same way as the complete halt; to be correct and effective, the horse must respond to the forward driving aids. The only difference being: once the rider has driven the horse into the restraining hand, the hand yields just BEFORE the horse comes to the halt, allowing uninterrupted forward motion... - The Dressage Formula


The horse who notices me looking left, and starts thinking about what he needs to do if we will turn left...that is mental. I'm not using my legs to drive him forward or my hands to yield just before the horse slows. It is THAT process of formal notification and attempted re-balancing that I find foreign.

Anticipation? I'm happy with that. Bring his mind back to me? All the time! Much better than a spook!


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## bsms

Posted this on phantomhorse13's journal. Some people would consider this a sign of bad training, while I like it in a horse:



bsms said:


> Bandit and I encountered the Tree Limb of Death again today. I'll share because we've dealt with the Tree Limb of Death a dozen times now, with varying levels of success, but today's encounter was interesting.
> 
> It is a dead tree branch that hangs out and over the narrow wash, maybe horse head height. We've always approached it from the north before. We usually get past it, but invariably with drama.
> 
> This time, we had zig-zagged across desert, dodging cactus and dropping into the wash south of the TLOD. As we got closer, Bandit balked. My DIL was on Cowboy, and he pushed a little closer...but Bandit was balking, so Cowboy decided it was too scary. But Cowboy was closer and not in a good position to turn around.
> 
> At that point, without any further urging from me, Bandit pressed forward. He pressed against Cowboy so hard that both Cowboy and my DIL were riding thru branches themselves, but Bandit stayed a little forward and between Cowboy and the TLOD. Bandit stayed in the exposed position until Cowboy was safely past as well, with Bandit keeping close watch on the TLOD. Then both sighed, and we continued on with relaxed horses.
> 
> Had we been alone, I don't think Bandit was going past it today. It may look scary from the north, but from the south? SCARY!
> 
> I think the only reason Bandit went by today was to help Cowboy. When Cowboy stalled out, too close for comfort but without much room to turn, Bandit very deliberately moved into "danger" and kept Cowboy protected until both were safely past. He's the most cautious horse I've owned or met. But if he sees a reason to do something, why it is needed, he becomes my bravest horse.
> 
> It was similar to when we were crossing the desert. Bandit hates to be confined, and he hates to push into brush. But we reached a point where we either needed to turn back, or push between two 5' tall, spine covered trees (_well, that is what we call 5' shrubs in Arizona!_) to get to an open area. Bandit hesitated, but he could see the open area as well as I could. So after a moment of thought, he pushed through, scratching both of us. Reliable Cowboy followed.
> 
> If I put two poles up in the arena, and attached pool wands to them, Bandit would buck rather than go between. Why risk death by pool wands if you can go around? But he's the bravest horse I own IF he sees a reason. If he doesn't...well, he doesn't and we won't.


Used the little Abetta saddle again today and I'm starting to really like it. It is easier for me to get my legs all around Bandit. I have to work the stirrups a little, but the seat feels excellent!

Also rode in Wrangler cargo pants again today. They may become my standard riding pants. Lots of pockets for cell phones, multi-purpose tools or anything else. Flat inner seams, like Wrangler jeans. 100% cotton, good for southern Arizona. And the baggy legs are good for an extra 4-5 inched in height when trying to get my foot into the stirrup - a totally unexpected benefit!

Nearing home, the garbage truck showed up. When I realized it was coming down the street I live on, and had just turned in to, I turned Bandit around and took him back. But the driver saw us. At the T-intersection where the street I live on dead-ends, before driving back down it the opposite direction, he stopped his truck and turned off the engine. He was obviously going way out of his way to make it easier for me.

Bandit walked on loose reins past, with about 50' to spare, but we had to use part of our neighbor's yard to keep some extra room. Once on pavement, Bandit wanted to trot fast. Since the driver was waiting for us, that seemed like a good idea. 

Where the road climbs up the hill to our place, I asked Bandit for a canter. He gave it, with enthusiasm - but he did NOT lose his mind. He was still in total control of his emotions...he just thought my idea of a canter was a prudent expenditure of energy! So we cantered up the hill while Cowboy followed, slowed to turn in to the arena, and then cantered to the far end. Turned, went to the center of the arena and stopped, then watched the garbage truck drive by and pick up my cans of garbage.

This old picture is of a different company, but it gives a good size comparison - and it was about this distance that Bandit kept between us and the truck as he walked past:








​
So thanks to the guy from Waste Management. Like most drivers in this area, he was very nice and did his best to help out. Bandit is getting there. I love that he can then canter, and canter strongly, but do so while in total control of his emotions. It is very easy to stay calm on a horse when you are certain the horse is going to act sane! For someone who had built up a lot of fear, this is HUGE - even if others would find it "normal"!


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## phantomhorse13

You are so lucky to have considerate drivers in your area. That could have ended very differently without a sympathetic driver.

Awesome on both your parts to then be able to canter without worry - that is a huge improvement!!


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## horseluvr2524

No such luck with garbage truck drivers in my area. We even have multiple trash companies service the same small group of streets. So during the 1/2 hour trek through the neighborhood out to the trails, I would often have upwards of four garbage trucks pass me. They don't give any thought to the horses (well, one did, one time. But that was one out of a thousand). So the girls just have to deal with it. There were only a couple times they got a little nervous, and that was only when I was riding one alone.

I've got to say, it is really nice to have horses that are pretty much 'no spook' after all these years. Not to say they don't have their moments, but for the most part, they are even better than those average well behaved horses I used to be jealous of. They are just awesome. Dealt with helicopters landing 100ft away, traffic, rattling trailers, and motorcycles whizzing by 10 ft away, bicyclists, etc.

Now the only things I have to worry about are when Shan sets out to make me look a fool. And even after all these years, she's still pretty capable of doing so!


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## egrogan

Izzy and I had never encountered ATVs on rides until this past weekend, when we saw BO's neighbor on an ATV in the woods three days in a row. He's been her neighbor long enough that he's got horse etiquette perfected- he pulls over and turns the thing off, all while making small talk so the horse starts to put together that this wheeled creature is a human. I know not every person on an ATV will act that way, but I feel really lucky that our first few encounters have established that there's nothing to worry about!


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## bsms

Mia's first encounter with a dirt bike was like that. The guy was wearing a bright green suit and a lime green full face helmet. He stopped. I led Mia by hand. When he talked, it helped. When he took off his mask, she breathed a HUGE sigh of relief. "_Oh, so you are coming home from a costume party dressed like a giant horse fly!_"

But he was very nice and helpful!


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## updownrider

bsms - I'm still catching up on your journal but to clarify, I posted the Beezie Madden video in response to a comment Gotta made. I never intended it to be a way for you to ride. I thought I was clear in my posts that I am aware your goals are desert trail riding and not arena riding and only posted some advice to further your trail riding goals.

The book I believe you mentioned that is depressing you (can't remember your exact quote and I do not mean to put words in your mouth) is George's The American Jumping Style. George is clear in the beginning of the book that the book is not a training book, and he has written other training books. 

It is a book about the evolution of the the American Jumping Style. 

The military seat is a part of that evolution, and characteristics of that seat make up the American Jumping Style. But show jumping is not a static sport, it is a dynamic sport. Horses, venues, courses, etc. change. Not just for the excitement of the sport but for the safety of the horse and rider. But as things change, they do stay the same. If you compare the still shot of Beezie you posted from the video, there are many in the book that are similar. My sister's picture that George used in that book demonstrating an exercise is still an exercise she uses for her horses and students horses today.

As I said above, your goals for desert trail riding and show jumping goals are very different, and your riding will be different and it is impossible to compare them. I saw a huge improvement in your canter the other day.  Keep up the good work.


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## updownrider

> I'm using it in the DQ form, if you will - as a preparatory command to get the horse to collect so it will be balanced to execute the command that is about to follow.


What is the DQ form?


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## bsms

There are aspects of a forward approach to riding that I believe are helpful for me. I may ride too long-legged to get entirely off of Bandit's back at a trot, but just getting forward rather than being "on my pockets" as my western riding instructor wanted me to be, helps build Bandit's trust. His back has been used hard. Thinking about the underlying PRINCIPLES led me to a deep two point, if you will - which isn't traditional forward seat riding or traditional western, but combines elements for my unusual needs. 

After all, @updownrider, how many people REALLY enjoy riding a horse at a walk across the Sonoran Desert, off trail? My daughter and DIL think it is...OK. My wife & I enjoy it..._because we're getting old enough not to want to dash madly across the countryside? :think:_ 

I have this vision of a new arena sport, with potted cacti used to create a maze, and riders would win based on how quickly they solved the maze and how little blood they lost doing so. Somehow I doubt it will catch on...

But something I've noticed in the last few rides with the little Abetta is how "English" it feels. It seems to fit Bandit better than the Australian saddle, but is shorter, narrower and has more built in "grip" than any of my western saddles. In the arena, at least, I can comfortably get entirely off of Bandit's back - which would raise other implications - posting? Actually using a position that Littauer would recognize? I tried it a couple of days ago - heels down, lower leg contact, stabilized by lower leg, rump entirely out of the saddle. *Didn't do it very well, honestly*. Hadn't seriously tried in in years. But...Bandit was happy. If I could do it successfully, he might be even happier!

Part of me would really like to try a real English saddle again, with knee pads, knee rolls, short flaps, etc. Bandit is SOOOO much calmer than two years ago. My youngest says I would need to buy a red coat to go with it, and polish my boots! But Bandit is so much more stable, emotionally, than what I've experienced over the last 9 years of riding that I could experiment with approaches that would have been unsafe for me a few years back.

Besides...wearing a red coat might help during hunting season...:rofl:


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## bsms

updownrider said:


> What is the DQ form?


When @phantomhorse13 used it, I assume she meant her approach to a half-halt might differ from standard dressage terminology.

When I said I'd rather die than do a half-halt, my point was that they are completely foreign in concept to how I wish to ride. Not that they are "wrong", but not helpful to reaching my goals. Bandit was ridden - NOT by a dressage queen - but none the less in a very directive, "rider in charge" style. As his then rider pointed out, you cannot win a race if you need a 5 minute discussion on why going past a scary looking rock is a good idea!

And his previous owner was entirely correct - for his goals. Bandit was one of their fastest horses, but only if they didn't need to discuss everything with him!

In my case, fear - how can I ride without explosions - forced me to look at a different approach.

Trooper honestly does best if a confident rider just says, "_Don't question, just go!_"

Mia would melt down. When she lost her mind, it took a long time to find it! Thus those times where I'd be a half-mile from home and have no idea if we were going to get there!.

Bandit WOULD go, I'm told - but I was also told "_He'll get feisty, but if you can stay on, you can push him past..._" Not what I want to do on a road that might have cars coming at 50 mph, or going between cactus. There is a saying that starts, "_You demand a gelding.._." But MY gelding is vastly more confident and bolder if I consult with him, and then HE decides to do it with me. I've never seen him back down or away or do anything other than give me his best effort once HE decides we need to do X.

And that is curing my fear. Mia wasn't really the problem by the end. It was my bad memories that were the problem. She could be strolling along, as willing and as sweet as could be, and I'd suddenly get a huge knot in my stomach. By the end, *.I.* was the problem!

And finding I can consult with Bandit and then have a very reliable partner is huge. I think it is important to Bandit, too. He's blossomed with that approach.


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## updownrider

If DQ means Dressage Queen, I am sure the Dressage riders objected heavily when the term was used last year.


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## updownrider

A cactus maze sounds like a fun time but because I am directionally challenged, I need to do it as a team sport. Or else no one will ever see me again.

I have been on trail rides in Arizona and it was walk only. I have done the same in other places in the country and the world. I think you would be surprised at how many riders, even high level riders, love to just walk their horses and go on trail rides. Everyone I know started riding because they love horses. The people that have become professionals are pros because they figured out a way to make money and spend their life with horses all day.


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## horseluvr2524

Lower level dressage is a great foundation for all horses, and it doesn't necessarily have to be done with english style rein contact either. The principles are the same: forward with good energy and impulsion, stop when asked, go when asked, don't rush uncontrollably but move in a more balanced manner, learn how to turn correctly, and pay attention to the rider and rider to the horse.

Truly, IMO, just foundation training. Sure, when you get into the competitive stuff especially at higher levels, it becomes more of an... artistic take on training, so not everyone's cup of tea. I don't agree with all the dressage riders out there, even the top level ones. But a good bit of them have good training principles and practices.

As the legend goes, dressage was first developed as a standard for training war horses. So while not all of it is useful and good, you can find some diamonds in the rough.

FWIW, as you know I school dressage (though God forbid I ever try to do anything with those arena letters and patterns, it would be a disaster lol). However, the two horses I ride regularly will go through just about anything without a second thought, and they do it while clearly thinking and choosing the safest way. We have discussions too and they offer their opinions, and at least half the time they get their way. But they also listen when I tell them 'no, this time my way'. I just consider it all a product of those good foundation training principles used not only in the arena, but out on the trail as well.


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## bsms

horseluvr2524 said:


> Lower level dressage is a great foundation for all horses, and it doesn't necessarily have to be done with english style rein contact either. The principles are the same: forward with good energy and impulsion, stop when asked, go when asked, don't rush uncontrollably but move in a more balanced manner, learn how to turn correctly, and pay attention to the rider and rider to the horse...l.


If dressage is defined as "any training", then perhaps. That would make every western trainer a dressage trainer, which is a bit problematic.

Perhaps important to the distinction is "move in a more balanced manner. learn how to turn correctly..."

What does that mean?

Horses know how to turn. They know how to balance. They do so with far greater grace and athleticism unridden than what I see ridden - by anyone.

If the training is to turn "straight" - to insist a good turn is one in which the horse's body bends on the circle (impossible) and the feet follow in the same track (very artificial) - then I'm starting to think that is counterproductive to the horse's ability to turn. If Mia could turn on a 6' wide trail, hard enough to bruise my thigh, without collecting...then are we working on agility, or working on turning in a way that is easy for a rider to ride?

Balanced? A well balanced horse SHOULD be on the fore. After all, the front is where the horse has a built in shock absorber - the thoracic sling. Think of the horse's weight being suspended by two large rubber bands. THAT is where you want weight carried because that is where the impact can be turned into a longer-duration, lower-peak impact event.

If we teach the horse to lift in the front, it does so in part by tightening the muscles which should be absorbing shock - making rigid what should flex to protect the horse.

Learning to be responsive may be a shared goal of dressage and other approaches to riding, but again - what is the horse learning to respond to? Is he learning to let the rider control each step? If so, then isn't that CONTRARY to what anyone does if the horse & rider is in danger of falling - when we STOP trying to control and belatedly ask the horse to save us? And if he can save us then, why don't we trust him before?

And is riding with constant contact even a worthwhile goal to strive for?

And why should anyone, other than for the sport of dressage itself, even WANT to place a horse "on the bit"?

As a sport, I'm fine with dressage. As a method of training, it seems to me to be founded in incorrect ideas about how horses move. It insists on teaching them to move for us, instead of us moving for them. And the latter, I believe, is a fundamental principle of forward riding.

"As the legend goes, dressage was first developed as a standard for training war horses."

As Littauer describes at great length in his book, that IS a legend.


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## horseluvr2524

I feel that you misunderstood my intent. "Dressage" (supposedly, could be more false information as the war horse thing is) in French means 'training'. So that is how I use it and what I consider it as. So for the way I use it, yes, it's something that spans disciplines and riding styles.

All training principles are of course applicable to when the horse is being ridden, and not really any other time. Horses already are able to move with grace, balance, and agility without a rider. A good dressage riders intention is to attempt to gain that same grace and agility under saddle that they see in the field.

Balance-get the horse moving comfortable at all gaits, with a rider. Both horse and rider should feel secured and balanced. Riding out a horse that is anxious (spooked, heightened adrenaline, etc.), you often find yourself on something that does not even feel to have control over its own body. It feels like the legs are everywhere. I'm sure you know what I mean, with Mia losing her mind on you at times and spinning and being out of control. Green horses often feel similar, just out of control and legs everywhere because they haven't got their balance with a rider yet. Don't know how else to explain it.

I never mentioned anything about being on the forehand, just that I desire the horse to move in a balanced manner. What that looks like for each horse will be different depending on anatomy.

Turning: again, moving balanced. Not stumbling or tripping. A gentle wiggle of the inside rein to let them know we are getting ready to turn, and a follow through on the turn. I don't know about all this 'turning on a straight line' stuff. Honestly, I've never heard of it before. It doesn't sound right to me. It definitely wasn't something I was taught. Basically on a turn, if I'm trying to make a circle, I don't want an oval or a zig zag.

In the ring, I am not controlling every step no. But we do work a lot on obedience if we are in the ring, and doing things when I ask, the way I ask. The back area where I school is full of bushes and some uneven terrain, so the horses still have to think through where they are putting their feet. When we go out on the trail, they know they are out of school. They know I'm for the most part on auto-pilot and not actively riding every step. They are making the decisions. The reason the arena schooling is useful is because when I come off auto-pilot and take command, they know that I don't just want but need and require their obedience in that moment. It's a matter of being able to take orders when necessary, because usually it's a safety thing.

I like being able to take up contact. I enjoy the greater feeling of connection with my horse, and the fact that I can make tiny signals nearly imperceptible to watchers, and have my horse listen to those tiny signals on a literally feather light contact (and I ride in a loose ring snaffle, so no curb action there). I use this method as basically a 'listen up' on the trail. Now that I think about it, that's really the moment I come off auto-pilot and go back in command, and they know it's time to listen. An absolute maximum of ride time I spend on close contact is 15%. Most other times, it's a long rein with very light contact, or close enough that I can take up a light contact with any real shortening of the reins required.

So all of that to clarify that the principles I listed are for creating a comfortably ridden riding horse. 

My favorite trainer ever is Frederic Pignon. His training philosophy is all about letting the horses have a choice. I suggest looking him up, you might find it interesting.


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## evilamc

So using your reasoning, you think a person without training to use their body correctly could climb mountains better then a person that got training? Because the person without training would be working off instinct and doing what seems easier? Just because its how we naturally want to do it doesn't mean it can't be done better and in a way that benefits us more?

Just because you may not see a horse move a certain way in the field doesn't mean how its moving is "better", they do whats easier. Sometimes we as the rider need to help them and prepare them because what we may ask them to do is hard and we want them to use themselves in a way that they hopefully wont get hurt/sore.


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## bsms

horseluvr2524 said:


> ...A good dressage riders intention is to attempt to gain that same grace and agility under saddle that they see in the field...Green horses often feel similar, just out of control and legs everywhere because they haven't got their balance with a rider yet. Don't know how else to explain it...
> 
> ...I don't know about all this 'turning on a straight line' stuff. Honestly, I've never heard of it before. It doesn't sound right to me. It definitely wasn't something I was taught. Basically on a turn, if I'm trying to make a circle, I don't want an oval or a zig zag...
> 
> ...I like being able to take up contact. I enjoy the greater feeling of connection with my horse, and the fact that I can make tiny signals nearly imperceptible to watchers, and have my horse listen to those tiny signals on a literally feather light contact...
> 
> *So all of that to clarify that the principles I listed are for creating a comfortably ridden riding horse...*


Boldface mine.

In terms of historic dressage - what makes dressage a word that describes something different than "any riding" - the goal is, I believe, a comfortable riding horse, obedient yet flashy. The roots are in riding parties held by the extremely wealthy in medieval times. Littauer gives an excellent review, including his own translations of various texts, in "The Development of Modern Riding". The horse was to look "proud", because a horse ought to look proud to carry a nobleman. The horse HAD to be obedient, because it is hard to look noble while being bucked or while spinning. And by obedience, the powerful horse was an example to the common people, who had to obey their nobles without question.

After all, if a horse could question a nobleman's judgment, what might a common man be tempted to do? "_No Bishop, No King_" as King James told the translators of the King James Bible. Bad enough the idea that a commoner could choose a church leader. That could lead them to wanting to choose political leaders, and where is there room for a king in that? And if a HORSE can question a King...:think:...could the American Revolution be far off?

And all of that is fine for the sport and tradition of dressage. MOST people want a comfortable riding horse. I have no problem with either the sport or the tradition. 

I agree, a horse doesn't automatically know how to balance with a person, or even balance themselves. I don't think Mia had ever cantered outside a corral until I tried it. Initially, she put way too much power in with her hind legs, while not stretching her front legs out far enough. That literally drove her over, her nose to the ground, and it felt like we were going to flip over.

That was one of those scary times on Mia! But we worked past it, although I never trusted her to keep her feet if the going got rough. A good thing about her going to NE AZ. She has now run loose with a herd of horses on thousands of acres. I suspect her balance is much better now than it was in May 2015!

But yesterday, when Bandit cantered back down the middle of our arena at the end of the ride, he did so on the left lead. I turned him right, ignored his leaning a little, and he did a 180 degree turn cantering on the wrong lead in about 30' - no problem. For him. Not too bad for me, other than I haven't practiced riding a horse who leans in a turn.

Given my approach to riding, maybe that IS a good thing to work on?



> Portia, untutored and untaught, had developed for herself a way of turning very similar to that of the American cow-ponies. At my signal, down would go her nose, her front feet would jam into the ground, and she would swivel round on a pivot. Frequently the action was so sudden and so complete that I had difficulty in keeping up with her. Often the momentum carried by my body was so great that had it not been for the knee-pads on my Toptani saddle, I am sure I would have sailed into space. When turning like this, Portia never showed the slightest tendency to slip...not only without losing speed but without loss of balance. As soon as I got used to turning on the edge of a precipice (as this felt like) I quite enjoyed it. - Adventures Unbridled, Moyra Williams, Page 144


I think I might come to enjoy it as well. Maybe Bandit's frustration with some of our arena riding is due to my stiffness, my darn inflexible lower back...and maybe some is due to my imposing my idea of balance. As I was taught to do, by a former barrel racer of all people!

I'm obviously thinking out loud. No one in my family would spend 60 seconds on a discussion of how a horse should move! The people on HF may understand. And I'll say this for formal dressage: *They have thought it through*. Good dressage riders understand what they are trying to do, and how to get there! They are, I think, the most articulate and most deep thinking of riders. Good luck finding a book on western riding that is worth a darn! There are a lot of good western riders, but not good writing about western riding. Which leaves me, thinking out loud and hopefully watching videos on English Riding next month...

:cheers:​


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## bsms

evilamc said:


> So using your reasoning, you think a person without training to use their body correctly could climb mountains better then a person that got training?...
> 
> Just because you may not see a horse move a certain way in the field doesn't mean how its moving is "better", they do whats easier...we want them to use themselves in a way that they hopefully wont get hurt/sore.


Mountain climbers don't study ballet to help them climb. They study climbing. And hopefully take lessons from someone who knows MORE about mountain climbing that they do!

I don't think humans know squat about how a horse really moves! When you increase the rider's weight, a horse will adjust, on his own, by slightly shortening his strides and leaving each foot on the ground a little longer. We know that because we have used high speed cameras to watch them. Not because we ask them to do so, and not because we feel it!

Riders talk about horses rounding up their backs. It is common dressage verbiage, but it doesn't happen. A horses can LIFT the back, but that has other repercussions - and since no rider knows what the horse's FEET feel, we don't understand. We just know it feels good to US.

I think everyone agrees that if the balance equation gets really complex, give the horse its head and hope he can save us. We only dare to try to "improve" the horse's balance when things are simple - level terrain, starting with balance. So...who is the expert? Someone who can solve difficult equations, or someone who frankly doesn't even get simple ones right very often?

Horses do what is easier BECAUSE it is easier on them. And they KNOW, because they FEEL their body. They know if they are stretching their legs too far underneath them for their build. They know if "collection" is causing higher peak impacts on their front legs, because they get instant feedback with every stride. We motor on in ignorance, knowing how our rumps feels but not how their joints, feet, shoulders, backs, and legs feel!

Ask me to lengthen my strides while jogging, and I can tell you quickly what happens to my feet. No matter how closely you observe me, you will not know that answer. The difference is I can tell you, but a horse cannot. Not unless we give him choices, and listen to his responses.


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## evilamc

Guess this is just where we can't agree! IMO Anyone or anything with training (proper training) would be better off then when left to their on devices. Yes sometimes we depend on our horses instincts to get us out of sticky situations, but they have better awareness then we do IMO. So they may see a better way out then we do. That still doesn't mean we can't help them more better and work better muscles so they can do their job better. 

If I let my gaited horses just speed up at their own desire, they pace...have you ever ridden a pace before? Its not fun. Why do they do it? Because its easier. They just drag themselves along. They also stumble more when I just let them "have at it" and move how they want to. Now when I ask them for a little suppleness they do a beautiful gait and move along more surefooted. They seem to pay attention more because they're in "work mode" and they use their back muscles better. Its a wonderful feeling when riding bareback and I feel their backs lift up under me, they put their heads down and chug along at an even balanced 4 beat gait. So you may think asking them to do this is only for my benefit, more comfortable to ride but it works better muscles and they pay attention to their feet better. I use dressage training principals to work on their gaits and I've only seen good come from it. Nice strong backs, more surefooted, heads not up in the air worried. They carry their heads lower and are just more mellow about it all.


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## bsms

It may be obvious I feel strongly about this. Let me give some examples from my own body:

When I was younger, I tried to run for speed. I was told lengthening my stride would help my speed. I tried it. I got faster quick. 

I also started getting injuries. My knees and shin splints. So I tried different shoes. Paid over $120 back in the early 80s for some. Didn't help. I tried a variety of things, but the only thing that worked to stop the injuries was...running slower. Seems my body isn't built well for fast distance running, but I could JOG for decades.

It is like the old joke:

"_Doctor, Doctor! Every time I play tennis, my elbow hurts! What should I do?_"

"_Stop playing tennis. That will be $200._"​ 
A few months ago, I started doing pull-ups again. Good for the chest, arms, shoulders. And I made good progress until...my inner elbows started hurting. Figured whatever it was would get stronger, but it just started hurting more and more until I quit. I'm now back to trying. If I am careful about my position, I can do sets of a whopping THREE. Any more, and the next day my elbows start aching. It remains to be seen if I'll be able to build up to more.

But no one who writes books on body weight exercises - at least none of the ones I've read - say anything about "elbows". I also notice another area that gets tired fast is along the sides of my spine. It seems stabilizing my body during a pull-up requires more back strength than I expected. Again, I haven't seen any books or videos that talk about using pull-ups as a BACK exercise. Right now, the few pull-ups I'm doing are worth it just for my back. It seems to be helping the damaged area.

Push-ups are good for the chest and triceps. Except I notice my tummy muscles. Guess they are more out of shape than my triceps.

I could go on. Things often affect parts of my body that I don't expect. And I know my body. At least, I know IT far better than I know a horse's body! But I didn't know doing pull-ups would affect my elbows. Or my back. And the well-intentioned people who told me to lengthen my strides were good competitive runners, backed up by coaches who did it professionally. And THEY failed to predict how my body would respond!

Yet we feel free to say a horse needs to reach under more with its stride, to balance better! I was taught, at least, to discourage a horse from leaning into turns. But if I crawl around on all fours, I can feel WHY a horse may want to lean in. The trainer who did a lot for my horses told me to use the reins to correct the "problem", and talked of supporting the inside shoulder, holding the horse together, etc. *But since he is far more agile on his own than with me, why not let HIM tell ME how to turn best?*

If I trust him to save me when things are hard, why do I presume to tell him he is wrong about how to do things when it is easy?

I feel driven to the conclusion that the person whose body, legs and feet are doing the work, and who can do it incredibly well when I'm not on his back, is the one who should be deciding how to do things when I ride. _I need to focus on MY balance, and on how I can get out of his way_ - to restore his athleticism, rather than presume to teach it to him!

Of course, that is for a horse who will be ridden by an aging guy with a stiff back across countryside. If someone wants to compete in different sports, they may NEED the horse to move in a way the horse doesn't learn on its own. 

I think Charlotte Dujardin on Valegro has been a great example of how the right rider and right horse can ride dressage AND have the horse enjoying it. Looks that way to me, at least! It may have been work for Valegro, but he seemed to understand it and enjoy it. But I'm certainly not Charlotte Dujardin, and Bandit certainly is not Valegro, and my tiny arena is not anything like a good training ground!

So for what we do - for what we are realistically capable of doing - I think Bandit will do best if I do least.


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## evilamc

Considering all I do is trail ride and through some pretty rough trails..I still expect my gaited horses to gait out properly when we can. If I don't prepare them for the transition and set them up right they pace...then stumble...then I may die. Now if I ask them to supple up then move out they move along so surefooted I don't have a single worry. Would you not want your horse to move in a way thats smoother and more comfortable for you too? I mean thats the whole reason people love gaited horses is for their smoothness...if they aren't going smooth you have to try and fix it!

Sure we can't FEEL how everything we ask them to do affects them but I can check them for soreness after rides/next day...and I go by their attitudes and willingness. Pretty sure when their ears are perked forward and they're chugging along they aren't in discomfort. We do 8-12 mile rides some days, up and down mountain hills...rocky terrain...No soreness. I do give them their head when the trail gets more rough so they can find the best footing but I still control their speed. I do not want them to try and race through it. 

But we have to work up to things, train and condition. When I first started asking them to supple and worked on their gait we may only get a few strides...but we built off that. Sure if I jumped right into it and tried to force them to do it without the proper training I'm sure they'd be sore and unhappy. While at the same time some horses can't do certain things just like we can't. Everyone and everything can have limitations, with the horses we just have to pay attention so we don't push passed them.

If my horses ever seemed unhappy or unwilling to do something I ask, I'd take a step back and evaluate what I'm doing. Some horses can be stoic but you just have to make sure you listen. 

I'm not a good runner, I tried to become one but its just not in the cards for me. It hurt so I stopped. If when I asked my horses to move properly, it hurt..they would let me know and thats when I'd try and figure out whats wrong. Sure every horse may not be able to be as athletic as another and thats OK...But saying its bad for EVERY horse is just ignorance imo.


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## bsms

evilamc said:


> Guess this is just where we can't agree! ...
> 
> If I let my gaited horses just speed up at their own desire, they pace...have you ever ridden a pace before? Its not fun. ...
> 
> ...They seem to pay attention more because they're in "work mode" and they use their back muscles better. Its a wonderful feeling when riding bareback and I feel their backs lift up under me...it works better muscles and they pay attention to their feet better. I use dressage training principals to work on their gaits and I've only seen good come from it. Nice strong backs, more surefooted, heads not up in the air worried. They carry their heads lower...


Well, we'll certainly have to agree to disagree. And that is OK.

I'm not saying the horse should just run wild under the rider. In the last video of my riding, there were several times I told Bandit, "_No, we're not going to do things that way!_" He can slide into "race mode" pretty easy, but his race mode was learned carrying a very big guy long miles - and thus is a very protective mode of movement.

But I would dispute the idea that horses lifting their backs "use their back muscles better". What is better about it? And HOW does the horse do it? From what I've seen, they do it by 

1) Increasing the strain on their hind end to direct the forward thrust more upward- something their joints have not evolved to do.

2) Lifting with the inner muscles of the shoulder - which takes the absorption out of their built in shocks.

3) Increasing the peak impact on their front legs to 'vault' their forward body up.

Contrary to what is taught, there is almost no change in center of gravity to the rear. There is no "Circle of Energy" bouncing off the bit. And the horse's back is being worked HARDER. I fail to see how increasing impacts and harder work is an improvement in how a horse moves.

Want to help a horse use its back well? Two point.


> The stability of the rider in the _Y_-direction was significantly highest in the two-point seat, followed by the rising trot and the sitting trot, respectively. In the _X_-direction, there was no significant difference between the three positions. The significantly highest load on the horse’s back was at the sitting trot (2112 N), followed by the rising trot (2056 N) and the two-point seat (1688 N). The rider was most stable in the two-point seat while transferring the lowest load on the horse’s back. The rising trot was found to be more stable and less stressful for the horse’s back compared to the sitting trot.
> 
> A comparison of forces acting on the horse?s back and the stability of the rider?s seat in different positions at the trot - ScienceDirect


 That is a 20% drop in the highest load the horse experiences between a sitting trot and two point. If not two point, post:


> At trot, two force peaks were present during one stride cycle. Both peaks in rising trot were significantly lower compared to sitting trot (peak 1: 2.54±0.30 versus 2.92±0.29; _p_<0.001; peak 2: 1.95±0.34 versus 3.03±0.32; _p_<0.001). This supports the general assumption that rising trot is less demanding for the horse than sitting trot.
> 
> Vertical forces on the horse's back in sitting and rising trot - ScienceDirect


Two competing philosophies. I like Jean Claude Racinet's books. Bought them all. But his approach to riding is 180 out from mine. He believed you taught the horse balance, and then added motion. I think the horse learns balance THRU motion - REAL balance.

I think a horse builds a more athletic body the way a human does - by progressively challenging himself. Turns, hills, sand, uneven ground - those teach a horse and improve his balance and physical strength - for turning, climbing, working, balancing. I've jogged for 40 years and I cannot tell YOU how to run down a steep hill. YOU have to figure that out, by starting with small & shallow hills and building up. I cannot explain balance to you, nor would it help if I put electrodes on your body and shocked you to try to "hold you together" as you did some sport.

Now...if someone WANTS a special movement, be it dressage or WP or some other show, THAT may need to be taught using special techniques. But a healthy, strong, responsive, balanced body? That comes from USING the body in progressively more challenging ways.

And if we try to impose OUR ideas of how it should look, we are far more likely to harm the horse than help - because we cannot feel what he has to do to satisfy us.


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## bsms

evilamc said:


> ...If I don't prepare them for the transition and set them up right they pace...then stumble...then I may die. Now if I ask them to supple up then move out they move along so surefooted I don't have a single worry. Would you not want your horse to move in a way thats smoother and more comfortable for you too?...
> 
> Sure we can't FEEL how everything we ask them to do affects them but I can check them for soreness after rides/next day...and I go by their attitudes and willingness. Pretty sure when their ears are perked forward and they're chugging along they aren't in discomfort. We do 8-12 mile rides some days, up and down mountain hills...rocky terrain...No soreness. I do give them their head when the trail gets more rough so they can find the best footing but I still control their speed. I do not want them to try and race through it....
> 
> ...If my horses ever seemed unhappy or unwilling to do something I ask, I'd take a step back and evaluate what I'm doing. Some horses can be stoic but you just have to make sure you listen...
> sure every horse may not be able to be as athletic as another and thats OK...But saying its bad for EVERY horse is just ignorance imo.


1 - Check out Bandit's walk to canter transition when he decides to do it. It is plenty fluid. I don't need to supple him up first, then set him up, then cue him. HE can do it.

Has he always done so? No. He had a lot of issues when he came, largely from bad farrier work and too heavy a rider for what was being asked of the horse. 

If your horse stumbles dangerously when you ask something, then the HORSE is almost certainly unhappy about it as well. He doesn't want to fall, either. But unlike the rider, the horse can feel HOW trying certain things affects his balance and ability. Let HIM discover the answer.

2 - I don't want Bandit to just take control and do anything. There are hill sides I still won't ride him down. He wouldn't be ready, and some may not ever be safe for both horse and rider.

But the solution is found in progressive challenges, not in me "holding them together". My reins CANNOT support the shoulder. That is physically impossible. I can only cue them - let them know I am looking for something else. The rider cannot hold the horse together. He can only ask the horse to move differently.

But if we don't understand HOW they move - and 60 years hasn't taught me how I move MY body - then we are not ready to teach them "good movement".

3 - Is teaching dressage bad for every horse? Of course not. Done well, and done in controlled amounts, by a knowledgeable person, you can get good dressage movement from a happy horse. What Chamberlin and Littuaer claimed, both former cavalry officers who watched hundreds of professional riders working using principles of dressage (James Fillis had been hired to set up Russia's equitation program for their cavalry), was that few cavalry men were capable of doing it right.

Guys who worked full time with horses, many hours a day, who attended classes and had others watching them ride and train - and THEY screwed it up more often than not.




> Anything can be done better, and there is no question but that the average hunter or jumper under the average rider would perform better if given more schooling than he receives today. But, as in everything, it is easy to go overboard, and one can waste a lot of blood, sweat and tears with the best intentions in the world by barking up the wrong tree.
> 
> It is possible, in the confusion of ignorance, to choose a method of schooling which does not suit the cross-country horse or jumper, or a too elaborate method which will waste time...or a method which is too difficult for technically underdeveloped riders.
> 
> About twenty years ago Gen Harry D. Chamberlin said in his book RIDING AND SCHOOLING HORSES:
> 
> *'It is undoubtedly true that, except when executed by expert riders, too much collection and schooling are more apt to ruin a horse entirely, than are too little*. As in the case of so many other things, the middle course in training seems the safest, sounded, and surest.”
> 
> An accomplished rider, of course, can give his horse, purely for his own satisfaction, some extra, really unnecessary knowledge, without the slightest detriment to his horse's performance. B*ut unquestionably most of us are more successful with simpler aims and correspondingly simpler methods*. In this case Forward Schooling fits the bill.” - VS Littauer, Schooling Your Horse, page 11.


They were both far more experienced than almost anyone is today because they lived and worked with thousands. Chamberlin once had over 500 horses and riders he was totally responsible for training - at one time. 

I don't think it is ignorance to listen to them. I think it is humility.

But...we disagree. Pity we can't go ride together and talk over a meal later. The Internet is such a poor way to communicate! I often create hard feelings without any intention of doing so. If I've done so, I apologize. Folks need to think and then do what seems best to them - as I try to do.


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## bsms

Just did a very short ride on Bandit. 20 minutes or so. I tried him bitless, with shorter stirrups and staying off his back entirely at a trot and canter.

Kept it short because I was giving him VERY little guidance, and exploring what a rider wants when the rider isn't saying much is tough work for a horse. Mentally. He guessed wrong a few times, and found it...different.

But he did a few things very well today. He got a right lead on a right canter over half the time. I THINK he did a lead change, going from a right canter to a left. Not sure - I'm not much of a rider and sometimes screw up what lead he is on - and after a couple of strides he stopped as if he was puzzled by what he had just done. But I think he did a lead change, on his own.

He had a couple of rough trots - fast but braced, race mode. That is his default stride. But he also gave me several nice western jogs as well. The one I was happiest about was a decent trot straight, then a 180 deg right turn, then straight, then a 180 left turn, then straight, then a 180 right turn. All turns were about 20' in diameter, with a little lean. But he was bitless. I had slack in the reins. I didn't move my hand. I didn't knowingly use my leg. Just looked hard in the direction of turn, and he did. Right, left, right, and no more than 20' diameter.

For that, he got a lot of praise and a chance to eat grass for a couple of minutes. Any time he did well, we stopped and he got a minute of eating, followed by a minute of walking and chewing.

Near the end, he gave me a rough trot. I stopped him, said lets try again, and he gave me an OK jog. While today was only 20 minutes of riding, he was concentrating, trying to figure it out. So we stopped before he got frustrated, and when he had just done something right.

I'm liking the Abetta. When he slows from a canter, he sometimes drops into a tight trotting turn, like a flourish at the end of a signature...for those old enough to remember cursive writing! He also struggled a few times with what I was asking. Regardless, the Abetta felt secure even in two point or a half-seat.

And while he was uncertain, he was a total gentleman the entire ride. Not a moment of resentment. Just, "_Is this what you want? Is this? This feels a bit odd...are you sure? Well, OK...I'll eat!_" :thumbsup:

Minimalist set-up today:










Compare to:


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## gottatrot

It might seem like a subtle difference, but it is a huge difference to ride with the goal of creating balance in the horse by what the rider does (aids and holding the horse on the bit), versus riding with the goal of teaching the horse to balance himself based on what the rider does (learning to move with the rider's balanced seat). 

Staying out of the horse's way does not necessarily equate to leaving the horse to his own devices. 

If a horse does not stay in a gait and speeds up or breaks gait unless a certain seat and rein contact is in place, that is simply because the horse has been trained that this seat and contact means to gait. It does not mean the horse cannot balance and gait on a loose rein without the contact. We feel the horse must be held together, and thus teach the horse that the cue for that gait is to be "confined within the leg and rein." 

I've tried retraining horses that were originally taught to go on contact, and it is very difficult to teach them that they can go on a loose rein. But I firmly believe this is not because they need the balance of the rider, or that they can't keep the gait without that "support." I've definitely changed my mind on this completely. 

I've ridden many horses that were trained to go on a completely loose rein, and many that were trained to go completely on contact. The most unbalanced were those that were trained to move in an unnatural position - or learned to go that way due to tack/rider error- regardless of contact or lack thereof. This is seen across the board in western and english riding. 

Ideally, whether we lean more towards communicating frequently with the horse through the tack as @horseluvr2524 does or talking less and seeing what the horse's decisions are, we will let the horse use his body as naturally as he can with the added weight of a rider. In my opinion, this is one of the biggest mistakes we can make as riders; thinking that how the horse carries himself at liberty is less balanced or less correct/beautiful than how we can make him move under saddle.

Watch how your horse moves when loose! That's how he's supposed to move (unless you're watching him when agitated or sick). 
Look at this picture...on the web it was recommended to work with the horse on rounding his inverted back.








But look closer at the saddle. He's not moving like this because the rider is doing something wrong or because he doesn't have a strong topline. The saddle is apparently far too wide and jacked up in the air with pads so it doesn't sit remotely close to the horse. Most horses I know would find this type of fit uncomfortable.

Once upon a time, I'd only seen warmbloods in the dressage ring or being ridden. I believed what I was told, that the riders had developed the horses to do these beautiful gaits through their gymnastic, progressive training. Then I was around some warmbloods in person and saw that a) untrained warmbloods moved as beautifully or even more beautifully than ones that had been trained in dressage when at liberty, and b) warmbloods I saw ridden often moved much better without a rider on their back. The training involves performing certain gaits on cue, and tolerating the aids. It does not involve teaching the horses to move better than their natural movements. If your horse is ungainly and awkward in the field, chances are they'll be ungainly and awkward when ridden. All you can do is strive not to make this _worse_. 

And because I couldn't resist after reading about horses and people with elongated gaits:








Seriously, I notice how this horse trots on his own and have seen many similar that the rider took credit for "creating" with wonderful riding.


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## evilamc

Replying quickly, little break from work.


So if my horse is stumbling when I let them choose how they'd like to go but not stumbling when I ask them to go the way I want, by your logic that stumbling is unhappy/pain, would that mean they're happier doing it the way I ask?

Also, yes I COULD let my horses pace and 2 point it, but why would I want to do that when I know they know how to gait properly? Because I've seen them do it in the field? I mean the smooth ride is the whole reason I bought my TWH! Obviously if they never gaited in the field I'd think something could be wrong but if they can do it out on their own they can do it with me!

But then we can say I'm the one interfering and causing the pace, which is true to some point. I untrained my gelding some when I first got him because I was clueless with gaited horses, now I'm fixing that.

My horses can give me good transitions too sometimes without my help, but then they can also give me horrible ones. The more I set them up for success the easier it gets and the less I have to ask though. The more they do it properly the more it becomes ingrained. I'd rather help more at first then later on it be automatic then just hope for the best every time?

The more I work on my geldings gait the better he gets, he steps into it on lose rein and just goes along, loose rein, no holding him in. But it takes baby steps to get to that. I think the more he does it the more he realizes it is better too!

Not saying every person should be out doing dressage but in a lot of ways it can be very beneficial to every horse and rider. No we don't need to know enough to compete but once I started using more of a dressage foundation with my twh everything seemed to click more. Maybe I just got lucky.

In the end every horse and rider combo is different though. What works for one may not work for the other! hardest part about being a horseman is keeping an open mind.


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## gottatrot

To illustrate my last post: Check out the movement of these dressage foal prospects with their mothers.


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## tinyliny

gottatrot said:


> It might seem like a subtle difference, but it is a huge difference to ride with the goal of creating balance in the horse by what the rider does (aids and holding the horse on the bit), versus riding with the goal of teaching the horse to balance himself based on what the rider does (learning to move with the rider's balanced seat).
> 
> *Staying out of the horse's way does not necessarily equate to leaving the horse to his own devices. *
> which of the above points is 'staying out of your horse's way"? the green or the blue?
> If a horse does not stay in a gait and speeds up or breaks gait unless a certain seat and rein contact is in place, that is simply because the horse has been trained that this seat and contact means to gait. It does not mean the horse cannot balance and gait on a loose rein without the contact. We feel the horse must be held together, and thus teach the horse that the cue for that gait is to be "confined within the leg and rein."
> 
> I've tried retraining horses that were originally taught to go on contact, and it is very difficult to teach them that they can go on a loose rein. But I firmly believe this is not because they need the balance of the rider, or that they can't keep the gait without that "support." I've definitely changed my mind on this completely.
> 
> I've ridden many horses that were trained to go on a completely loose rein, and many that were trained to go completely on contact. The most unbalanced were those that were trained to move in an unnatural position - or learned to go that way due to tack/rider error- regardless of contact or lack thereof. This is seen across the board in western and english riding.
> 
> Ideally, whether we lean more towards communicating frequently with the horse through the tack as @*horseluvr2524* does or talking less and seeing what the horse's decisions are, we will let the horse use his body as naturally as he can with the added weight of a rider. In my opinion, this is one of the biggest mistakes we can make as riders; thinking that how the horse carries himself at liberty is less balanced or less correct/beautiful than how we can make him move under saddle.
> 
> Watch how your horse moves when loose! That's how he's supposed to move (unless you're watching him when agitated or sick). that's how he's supposed to move without a burden on his back.
> Look at this picture...on the web it was recommended to work with the horse on rounding his inverted back.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But look closer at the saddle. He's not moving like this because the rider is doing something wrong or because he doesn't have a strong topline. The saddle is apparently far too wide and jacked up in the air with pads so it doesn't sit remotely close to the horse. Most horses I know would find this type of fit uncomfortable.
> 
> Once upon a time, I'd only seen warmbloods in the dressage ring or being ridden. I believed what I was told, that the riders had developed the horses to do these beautiful gaits through their gymnastic, progressive training. Then I was around some warmbloods in person and saw that a) untrained warmbloods moved as beautifully or even more beautifully than ones that had been trained in dressage when at liberty, and b) warmbloods I saw ridden often moved much better without a rider on their back. The training involves performing certain gaits on cue, and tolerating the aids. It does not involve teaching the horses to move better than their natural movements. If your horse is ungainly and awkward in the field, chances are they'll be ungainly and awkward when ridden. All you can do is strive not to make this _worse_.
> 
> And because I couldn't resist after reading about horses and people with elongated gaits:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously, I notice how this horse trots on his own and have seen many similar that the rider took credit for "creating" with wonderful riding.


my comments above, in red.

I think I know what you're saying, but would appreciate clarification on this 'difference'.

If I ask a horse to lift up it's lower neck, flex at the poll, step more under itself and keep both shoulders up. (my attempt at asking it to move in a balanced manner) I think of it the way a dancer walks, compared to the way you or I or Joe Schmoe walks. We slouch, we flump along the ground, our abdominal muscles lax, our gluts not engaged, our neck dropped down between our shoulders , etc. We CAN walk this way, all day long. It's the way we will walk when not required to do anything else. It takes the least amount of physical and mental engagement. 

But, it's bad for our posture, our circulation, we are more often in a position to trip, we put unnecesary compression on our knee joints and we have less mentally centeraing and awareness in our bodie. 

Now, a dancer? He walks mentally centered, neck elongated up and out of the shoulders. ribcage lifted (to enhance breathing) pelvis tucked, core engaged, gluts making the leg move, and landing softly on the front part of the foot. He walks in balance and beauty.
Can he do this all day long? No, not initially, it's HARDER . but over time, it becomes habit. at the least, he must know how to take and hold this way of moving.

I want to be able to ask my mount to move with mental and physical engagement. Both for his own development, AND, it feels good to me, the rider. 
Selfish? you betcha. I only ride an hour or two, a few times a week. that horse can work harder for me than he'd like to, were he just on his own in the pasture. 

I don't have any compunction at all about asking the horse to move that way. If it's constraining him, I think he can learn to move that way. If he puts some energy into it, and if I am tactful with my hands, I can work him into trying harder, since it IS work. A horse should be flexible. You should be able to compress and expand him, and he should be able to cope with that.


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## bsms

tinyliny said:


> ...If I ask a horse to lift up it's lower neck, flex at the poll, step more under itself and keep both shoulders up. (my attempt at asking it to move in a balanced manner) I think of it the way a dancer walks, compared to the way you or I or Joe Schmoe walks. We slouch, we flump along the ground, our abdominal muscles lax, our gluts not engaged, our neck dropped down...
> 
> Now, a dancer? He walks mentally centered, neck elongated up and out of the shoulders. ribcage lifted (to enhance breathing) pelvis tucked, core engaged, gluts making the leg move, and landing softly on the front part of the foot. He walks in balance and beauty...
> 
> I don't have any compunction at all about asking the horse to move that way. If it's constraining him, I think he can learn to move that way...


Is a dancer moving more balanced? You have set up a false dilemma - move like a dancer, or move like a slob. But there are many other ways to move in balance - like a jogger, like someone running hurdles, like a wrestler, like a boxer, like a fullback, etc. Carrying a 70 lb sack, very few dancers would opt to move like a dancer. Wasted energy and not as stable under the load.

When I jog, I am balanced. Long, low, smooth strides. Watching - almost stepped on a snake last month...so I "spooked". Cover rough terrain, rocks, hills, sand, pavement - and adjust to each.

"_mentally centered, neck elongated up and out of the shoulders. ribcage lifted (to enhance breathing) pelvis tucked, core engaged, gluts making the leg move, and landing softly on the front part of the foot_"

Not hardly. Not when I jog. When I jog, I'm chugging along - and moving efficiently.

After all, I don't WANT to dance. *I want to cover the most distance for the least effort*. And that is what I want of my horse. 

If my horse dances on the rocks, his feet will be destroyed. And he'll sweat hard and soon be out of breath and out of water. Been there, done that myself - coming home dizzy, shaking. Ill. Not fun for me. Dangerous. And not what I want for my horse!

I want my horse to save his energy for when he needs it, not to lift me higher while he dances down a jogging trail.

I think dressage is a coherent, well thought out, systematic approach to riding - with the goal of using the most energy possible to cover the least distance possible. Like a dancer! Since it is a well thought out SYSTEM of riding, with a long history, I think it deserves respect for what it is.

But what it is NOT is a system designed to help a horse cover rough ground efficiently. It is not designed to develop a horse who turns on a dime. A horse may be very responsive after dressage training, but a horse is very responsive after cutting horse training:









​ 
Just don't confuse the goals. You don't spend time and effort teaching a horse to get "on the bit" so he can cut cattle. You don't spend 2 years training in boxing so you can compete in wrestling. You don't climb rock walls to learn how to become a marathon runner. Rock climbers and marathon runners are both very fit, but in different ways. Train for your goals.

"_He walks in balance and beauty..._"

I've watched Bandit playing in the corral. He raced around, darted back and forth, jumping over water buckets, twisting through the shelters, dodging and provoking the other horses. I put railroad ties and rocks in the corral to teach Mia to lift her feet, and he FLEW over those! *HE PLAYED IN BALANCE AND BEAUTY!*

I was in awe watching him. Watching, I had no idea how I'd be able to stay on him. It certainly would have been darn hard! 

He wasn't staring at the ground right in front of his feet. He wasn't trying to 'round' his back. But he was moving with a power and grace and agility that puts to shame any dressage test I've ever seen. Because he could.

Obviously, not everyone shares my tastes. That is OK. But I've watched videos of wild horses racing over terrain that would make most riders wet themselves, including me. I've watched Bandit play. And MY GOAL is to restore Bandit's ability. And I cannot restore the beauty I've seen by putting him on the bit, or constraining him between the driving aids and restraining aids.


> There is no difference when collecting the horse, except the stretch is now directed upward instead of forward. *This elevation against gravity, without getting tight in the process, requires a great deal of basic tension (and requires the horse to be closed in between the driving reins and restraining aids).* The "rubber band" may never lose its arching oscillations. Especially during collection, the oscillations become rather pronounced, and the horse's back moves increasingly up and down as the horses steps and strides become loftier and more cadenced. *This of course requires that the horse is well contained between the pushing aids and restraining aids, because this relatively high basic tension which is necessary for collection can only be obtained in this way*...Prolonged collecting work is very strenuous for the horse." - Balance in Movement, The Seat of the Rider by Susanne von Dietze, page 120


Don't take boxing lessons to compete as a wrestler. Don't study ballet to compete in marathons. My goal of restoring Bandit's ability by getting out of his way many not be shared by everyone, and I don't ask them to. But if I want to restore Bandit's ability, it won't come by putting him on the bit. It will come from getting out of his way.

No one is required to share my goals. But I've seen no evidence that my goals are wrong...


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## tinyliny

I am not comparing dancing to jogging or slogging with a backpack.

My analogy is in walking the way we walk, and how a dancer walks. I would rather ride on the dancer's back than on your jogging slogging back. (that should give you a chuckle!)

of course it is not the be all and end all of riding. However, if the horse is capable of having changes in his self carriage, this is a 'flexible' horse, and one that does it willingly , when you ask it to, is even more useful than one that knows only how to run hellbent for leather across the countryside, and only that. 

Horses that dog cows are quite often compressing and extending their balance. they do it on their own, but they are also taught how to do it. using a bit helps a lot with this training, and being able to have the hrose be on the bit, and know what that means in terms of his whole body carriage is a useful tool to have in any discipline; jumping, dressage, cowdogging, trail riding. IT is being able to request the horse to collect, compress it's energy . Sometime this is only for a short time, and then you ask the horse to explode outward. Others ask the horse to maintain this much more challneging way of going, becuase it is comfortable for the rider, becuase the horse does not pound the ground as hard, becuase it is beautiful to watch and ride, and because it IS difficult, it becomes part of gymnastisizing your horse.

Just as having a dressage horse jump now and then is good for the horse, it gymnastisizes them too.

When a horse allows you to take control of its mouth and it's poll, and it gives over it's speed and energy to your hands, and pauses and waits for you to let it out, it is an expression of trust and partnership. Now, this is not always done so beautifully or kindly, as we all have seen bad examples of dressage, but when it is, it is a beautiful thing, both to watch and to ride.


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## bsms

"_However, if the horse is capable of having changes in his self carriage, this is a 'flexible' horse, and one that does it willingly , when you ask it to, is even more useful than one that knows only how to run hellbent for leather across the countryside, and only that_." - @tinyliny

Another false dilemma. NO ONE wants a horse who can only run hellbent for leather across the countryside.

But neither does one need to put a horse on the bit to control him.

"_being able to have the hrose be on the bit, and know what that means in terms of his whole body carriage is a useful tool to have in any discipline; jumping, dressage, cowdogging, trail riding_."

No. Not unless you redefine being "on the bit" to mean "can be ridden with a bit".


> In all the work, even at the halt, the Horse must be “on the bit”. A Horse is said to be “on the bit” when the neck is more or less raised and arched according to the stage of training and the extension or collection of the pace, accepting the bridle with a light and consistent soft submissive contact. The head should remain in a steady position, as a rule slightly in front of the vertical, with a supple poll as the highest point of the neck, and no resistance should be offered to the Athlete.
> 
> https://inside.fei.org/sites/default/files/DRE-Rules_2017_GA_approved_clean.pdf
> 
> Sorry, but not interested.


One doesn't work cattle with constant contact, nor does anyone I've met ride a trail like that. Nor does having the horse using contact have ANYTHING to do with having a responsive, calm, often obedient, willing, flexible, athletic horse.​ 
What makes anyone think a horse needs to be ridden with contact - let alone be "on the bit" - to turn with agility, to stop willingly, to extend eagerly, or do most anything well? Am I supposed to believe western horses, working cattle, ranging across mountainsides, or even half-mustang Bandit doing a walk-canter transition, would do so best if ridden with two hands and constant contract?

"_IT is being able to request the horse to collect, compress it's energy . Sometime this is only for a short time, and then you ask the horse to explode outward._"

Ummm....as I have pointed out, horses do NOT need to collect to "compress energy". Energy is not something that can be compressed, and every horse I've met has been entirely capable of suddenly expending energy, forward, sideways or backwards, so thoroughly that staying on is a challenge - without ANY collection!

Darn it, that has been much of my challenge for the last 9 years - staying on a horse who can change direction and speed without bothering to collect first!

I could go on, but why? MY approach, the one I am determined to use, is one virtually all western riding has been based on - until arena sports started perverting the western tradition. What Bandit did for me today impressed ME more than any dressage test I've seen.

That doesn't in any way say others cannot study and compete in dressage. But I'll be darned if I am going to have English riding stuffed down my western throat with claims it is beautiful and traditional western riding is not. 

Not interested. It repels me, frankly. I have come to conclude, after some painful experience, that *the best way to control a horse is to control him least*. I believe what Baucher said but didn't seem to practice:

"*'Let him think that he is our master, then he is our slave.' 
*
*There dwells an eternal equestrian truth!*"​


> "It was during the next week that Nona and I really found a true understanding. As I gained confidence in her and came to realize I could trust her in emergencies, I allowed her more freedom; concentrating less on the stops and turns, I had more time to think of widening her experience. *She in turn obeyed my orders with more alacrity as the number of orders decreased. She began, it seemed, to take a pride and pleasure on guessing my intentions.*" - Adventures Unbridled - Moyra Williams 1960, page 42


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## evilamc

So for fun...IF you did have a gaited horse....and that horse chose to pace...hallow backed high headed dead pace whenever you asked for speed (Most gaited horses pace rather then trot...some do still trot though..Pace is a 2 beat gait like a trot but its lateral instead of diagonal)...Would you go along with it since its what the horse chose to do and seems more comfortable doing?


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## gottatrot

tinyliny said:


> It might seem like a subtle difference, but it is a huge difference to ride with the goal of creating balance in the horse by what the rider does (aids and holding the horse on the bit), versus riding with the goal of teaching the horse to balance himself based on what the rider does (learning to move with the rider's balanced seat). Staying out of the horse's way does not necessarily equate to leaving the horse to his own devices.
> 
> 
> 
> Which of the above points is 'staying out of your horse's way"?
> I think I know what you're saying, but would appreciate clarification on this 'difference'.
Click to expand...

I think I am reading into your response to my post that you believe a loose horse with his head up is moving in a way that makes his back less strong, and that perhaps you believe as I used to that a horse will move better and keep the back stronger if he lifts and arches his neck which supposedly creates an arch in the back and is supposedly stronger for carrying a rider. 

To me, the difference in the above after riding both ways and studying both, is that when you think the horse must move like this:








Most of us end up interfering with the horse's natural balance and motion. This is not just an english idea anymore, but is very pervasive.









As you describe, many, many people believe that horses moving like this are stronger, building better muscles and carrying the rider better and more correctly.









I don't think it's wrong for a horse to carry a rider in a way that is more comfortable for the rider - to a point. I know a rider who taught his non-gaited horse to pace and carry himself in a way that ruined his body because it was more comfortable for the rider than trotting. The horse was destroyed by age 20. 

But I don't think we should delude ourselves into thinking this is better or more athletic for the horse. What some people do is try to make a horse travel using anaerobic muscle strength for long periods of time. If we were to walk with our abdominal muscles compressed and tensing our muscles to create an artificial posture, we would be using fast-twitch, non-endurance muscles. This will build larger muscles, because those are the fast-twitch type. But that doesn't mean it is "better" to travel that way. It is less efficient. Some think it looks nice. People march in parades in fancy postures. 

Letting a horse move more efficiently is not wrong. It does not make a horse less able to carry a rider. If you get the horse very fit, the gaits will be smoother and more elastic than they were before. The flying changes and collected gaits I've felt that were the most effortless and required the least energy were on very fit, lean muscled horses that galloped a lot and not on beefed up arena horses. 

This horse is not moving inverted and wrong. He is using his body well for his own genetic build and developing strong, correct muscles.








He will be able to collect when he needs to.









My biggest issue with "on the bit" is that we (speaking of myself in the past here) believe we are doing what is best for the horse. We are teaching him to balance and use his body correctly. Right? But studies are showing that horses dislike contact with the bit - all horses, even well trained dressage horses that are used to having it every ride. Horses will avoid getting a food reward if they can also avoid bit pressure. Horses don't "seek contact." They seek release and we confuse and unbalance them.

I use the bit a lot, especially on strong horses and ones that are excited and going to choose the wrong pace or direction unsafely. But I release the pressure quickly and whenever I can, and aim toward the least amount of pressure and the least often applied pressure I can get. I plan to spend a lot of time with my next horse training to work without bit pressure most of the time. My ideal is to teach the horse to balance, move and change direction off my seat and not have to give lots of cues with lower leg or reins. And to react to light rein aids versus strong ones. 
That is a different type of training, not merely allowing the horse to use his body "wrong" or lurch around out of control or out of balance.

Someone (maybe @bsms) said that the only time you see many free horses moving the way they do in a dressage ring is when they are fighting or in distress. It is a very short term movement - because it is anaerobic/strength-based and not efficient. 
Why is that our goal and our idea of beauty? But, as my previously posted video shows, some breeders have worked to create that movement genetically so the horses move that way naturally. Most of us don't have those genes in our horses, so what may be their natural movement is not going to be best for our horses.


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## gottatrot

evilamc said:


> So for fun...IF you did have a gaited horse....and that horse chose to pace...hallow backed high headed dead pace whenever you asked for speed (Most gaited horses pace rather then trot...some do still trot though..Pace is a 2 beat gait like a trot but its lateral instead of diagonal)...Would you go along with it since its what the horse chose to do and seems more comfortable doing?


When you are talking about pacing, I assume you are not meaning the horse's natural gait? I'm a little confused by the question because I've been on some gaited horses and they didn't pace, but rather when going fast wanted to use their natural gait or trot. So for example, on the Peruvian Paso I used to ride, he would do his four beat gait and an Icelandic horse did the tolt. Both horses when in their gait were using their body well, even though their natural neck carriage was high. Ditto for a TWH I used to ride. 

I'd say if the horse wanted to pace rather than gait or trot, he needs more work on learning to gait, or to trot comfortably. Some horses like Standardbreds are taught to pace, and I've not ridden one. The only horse I rode that paced was doing it unnaturally due to being taught by his rider, so we worked on making him trot instead. But that didn't mean he had to carry his head a certain way, he was just in the wrong gait.


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## evilamc

gottatrot said:


> When you are talking about pacing, I assume you are not meaning the horse's natural gait? I'm a little confused by the question because I've been on some gaited horses and they didn't pace, but rather when going fast wanted to use their natural gait or trot. So for example, on the Peruvian Paso I used to ride, he would do his four beat gait and an Icelandic horse did the tolt. Both horses when in their gait were using their body well, even though their natural neck carriage was high. Ditto for a TWH I used to ride.
> 
> I'd say if the horse wanted to pace rather than gait or trot, he needs more work on learning to gait, or to trot comfortably. Some horses like Standardbreds are taught to pace, and I've not ridden one. The only horse I rode that paced was doing it unnaturally due to being taught by his rider, so we worked on making him trot instead. But that didn't mean he had to carry his head a certain way, he was just in the wrong gait.


Basically referring to like a TWH that chooses to do 2 beat bouncy pace instead of a nice even 4 beat gait.

In my experience with my guys if I let them carry their head up high they do more of a step pace and as they get faster a full out pace. When I ask them to lower their head it seems to break it up and they go into nicer flat walk/running walk. I ride them on loose rein and just pick up contact if they fall out of their gait. By doing that they learn to carry themselves without me constantly holding them together.


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## tinyliny

@gottatrot. 
I only asked you to clarify your two points, when you said there is a difference between A and B, then you started to describe a situation, and I did not understand if you were talking about A or B.


I am not saying half of what you think I am saying. I feel that it is beneficial to the rider, in terms of having smoother gaits and more specific control, to be able to put a hrose on the bit. being on the bit doesn not mean a tight rein, as it is the horse who chooses how much contact he needs in order for him to 'give' to the bit. I , too, seek to give big releases , and do them often. But, sometimes a hrose knows one thing; to brace up against you. 
To teach him to soften to the bit WILL help him feel better, eventually. A horse that is holding a brace in his neck is holding it in his body, and his mind. You can ride that all day, and get work done, if you like. Or, you can help the horse feel ok about giving over his head to you.

people say ride with your seat and legs, and that's very good. the best riders do. but, they usually start with putting on a good handle with a rein, first. And, it doesn't have to be a BIT, to put a horse on the bit. It's ins't the bit, it's the release of a brace and the act of lifting the rider more and having more upward energy, verses forward energy.

If you have never felt this, you can poo poo it all you want. Until you feel this, you will not really understand how good this feels to the rider. I would hope the horse is not suffering, and I wouldn't do anything to cuase him to suffer. I might expect him to work harder, though.


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## gottatrot

tinyliny said:


> I am not saying half of what you think I am saying.


My apologies if I was inferring too much. 



tinyliny said:


> ...it is the horse who chooses how much contact he needs in order for him to 'give' to the bit. I , too, seek to give big releases , and do them often. But, sometimes a horse knows one thing; to brace up against you.
> To teach him to soften to the bit WILL help him feel better, eventually. A horse that is holding a brace in his neck is holding it in his body, and his mind. You can ride that all day, and get work done, if you like. Or, you can help the horse feel ok about giving over his head to you.


Bear in mind this is just one person's opinion, and hopefully @bsms doesn't mind the bloviating.

In theory, we have a giving hand and the horse chooses the contact. In practice, if we don't release the pressure when the horse responds by moving his head or neck in the direction we ask, the horse does not have control over the contact. He is forced to keep fighting, to brace, or to hold himself in a certain position. This is what a person might call choosing the contact or accepting the bit. If he leans into the pressure or braces, we let the horse know he is wrong. If he feels as though he is slightly backed off the pressure with his face so it is lighter in our hand, because he learns he must not fight the pressure (it gets him nowhere), we feel that he is accepting the contact and the bit. In reality he is merely obediently holding his neck in a position because we have not given him another choice.

The horses that feel the best to us "on contact" learn to move their neck throughout the gaits in just the position we ask them to hold it, as we move our hands in the same motions, so it feels very soft to us. We are proud of ourselves and the horse for maintaining the contact. But he has just developed enough muscle to maintain that position, learned that this is the only option we will allow, and that riding involves pressure from the bit in his mouth. I'm not saying this is cruel, and I've ridden this way many times and felt that elastic feeling when the contact is maintained and you feel the horse's movement through his neck and the feeling of his stride in your hands as you ride. But I believe we glorify this and believe it is so much more than it is.

It is work, and asking a horse to work hard is not the wrong part in my mind. The wrong part is that we believe this is helping the horse, that we are teaching him balance, and building the correct muscles versus the incorrect ones. It is also wrong to believe horses that will not accept contact because mentally the pressure is too stressful so they keep gnawing or leaning or bracing despite corrections, are less skilled, athletic or useful. 

I've rarely met a horse that will not accept gentle contact with a bit as a cue to turn, stop, change gaits, etc. Nearly every horse can deal with a pressure that is quickly released. But many horses can't adjust mentally to constant pressure even if it is light, giving, consistent. That is one clue that helped me change my thoughts about horses needing to accept contact or being on the bit. 

I believe horses ride better and more powerfully underneath you when they are taught to carry themselves. Ride them in all gaits in well fitting tack, take them up and down hills, do lots of turns in both directions and transitions...that horse will be comfortable and balanced to ride. I've found when taking the horse back in the arena after this type of work that suddenly he can balance, turn, lift all on his own and I don't need to hold him together. But folks will often not look at his beautiful, balanced gaits and musculature, but will instead notice he does not have his neck curved over and held in an arch. The unbalanced, unmuscled horse being ridden around in frame will seem more advanced and proper to them.


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## bsms

tinyliny said:


> ...I feel that it is beneficial to the rider, in terms of having smoother gaits and more specific control, to be able to put a hrose on the bit. being on the bit doesn not mean a tight rein, as it is the horse who chooses how much contact he needs...
> 
> ...And, it doesn't have to be a BIT, to put a horse on the bit. It's ins't the bit, it's the release of a brace and the act of lifting the rider more and having more upward energy, verses forward energy.
> 
> If you have never felt this, you can poo poo it all you want. Until you feel this, you will not really understand how good this feels to the rider...


1 - I think the way to get smoother gaits and better control is to put the horse "OFF THE BIT". Realistically, as @gottatrot points out, a horse does NOT get to choose how much contact he gets when the contact is constant.

A bit manufacturer studying rein pressure and bit design concluded any contact below 2.5 lbs was too minimal to even look at. Normal contact involved pressure in the 4-5 lb range, minimum. That agreed with what Clayton found:










An experienced dressage rider had contact bouncing around between 3-6 lbs when just maintaining contact. Her half halt was 8 lbs - because after all, if the horse is constantly experiencing 3-6 lbs of pressure, it will take MORE to cue ANYTHING.

A magazine looking at rein pressures found an experienced dressage rider used 15-25 lbs to cue a full stop in a snaffle, while a reiner using the same bit used 5. Why? Because slack reins generate 1-2 lbs of pressure, and a horse can tell the difference between 2 & 5. But a horse who gets constant half-halts of 8 lbs is NOT going to stop on 5 lbs!

There is no such thing as feather light pressure with constant contact. If people say they '_give a feather, take a feather_', they are blowing smoke up their own butts! It doesn't happen - as Clayton admitted:


> Rein Check
> On contact, rein tension, and the myth of lightness
> 
> By Hilary M. Clayton, BVMS, PhD, DACVSMR, MRCVS
> 
> "...As dressage riders and trainers, we value the quality of lightness; but when I measure the amount of tension associated with a contact that feels correct to an experienced rider, it oscillates from about one pound to five pounds. *Although five pounds sounds like a lot of tension to hold in your hand, it really doesn’t feel like a lot of weight in a dynamic situation.* Some dressage texts lead us to believe that fully trained horses should take only a few ounces of contact with the rein. *However, this advice is highly subjective and is not supported by actual measurements*. Moreover, if rein tension is a consequence of the natural movements of the horse’s relaxed neck, then the mechanics of the motion dictate the amount of tension...
> 
> ...It is difficult for a rider to correctly assess the amount of tension in the reins when the contact is dynamic and tension is constantly changing. Our goal as riders should be to offer our horses a consistent and predictable contact that allows them to seek the bit confidently and, in so doing, to use their entire bodies correctly..."
> 
> http://cvm.msu.edu/research/researc...usdf-connection/copy_of_ReinCheckJune2011.pdf


2 - to quote Clayton again:



> Our goal as riders should be to offer our horses a consistent and predictable contact that allows them to seek the bit confidently and, in so doing, to use their entire bodies correctly...


She claims contact - constant, consistent contact, is needed for a horse to "use their entire bodies correctly".

For competitive dressage, she is right. I assume. *But millions of western horses use their bodies fine without it!*

3 - "_the act of lifting the rider more and having more upward energy, verses forward energy. If you have never felt this, you can poo poo it all you want._"

I haven't poo-pooed it. I've been very clear - if someone enjoys it and wants it, that is between them and their horse!

But it obviously has no meaning for going across the country side. It is totally inappropriate for desert riding. Going UP instead of FORWARD is stupid IF your goal is going somewhere ahead!

Have I experienced it?

Yes. Both Bandit and Mia have done floaty trots for the fun of them. I mentioned earlier in my journal that I recently got back from a ride, and Bandit gave me a huge trot - LOTS of lift - because he felt like it. ANY reasonably fit horse can move with tons of lift if they want to, and for a short time. You don't need a bit. You don't need to train them.

A horse can do that naturally, while still looking where he is going!

I've owned two purebred Arabian mares, and currently own a 3/4 Arabian gelding and a 1/2 Arabian gelding. Arabians have no problem with using the vertical - when they feel like it. But I only value it as an expression of their "joie de vivre".

As Gen Chamberlin & VS Littauer noted, training a horse toward that goal by someone who is not an expert is far more likely to destroy the horse's "joie de vivre" than encourage it! This is NOT how Mia or Bandit look when filled to overflowing with the joy of life:








​
I don't feel SAFE on a horse who needs constant contact. If the horse isn't balanced and using his body correctly without contact, that is a training hole that needs to be filled. If people cannot control their horses without constant contact, that is a huge training hole. If someone has to COMMAND their horse past something, the horse has not "bought in" to the something being safe. If my horse cannot go past something on slack reins, he just isn't ready to go past it at that distance. 

I obviously use contact at times, but I will not live in my horse's mouth. Mia and Bandit have hammered home in my head the belief that "*He controls best who controls least*".

From post #8 on this thread:


> ...There is an old phrase. "Horse sense" dates back at least as far as 1805 in England. The Cambridge dictionary says it refers to someone with "practical knowledge and good judgment about ordinary life". Writing in modern times, and I suspect with scant experience around horses, they assume it is connected to horses meaning country, and the crude supposed wisdom of county folks.
> 
> But after 7 years around horses, I think it means the sense that horses have - a surprisingly practical approach and one that, given time, can see thru a lot of artifice ("a clever trick or something intended to deceive"). It is pretty easy to fool a horse once or twice, but I think horses show, over time, good sense in assessing people and their intentions.
> 
> *It is one of the reasons I believe you build trust by being trust-worthy.*...
> 
> ...But if I want to be seen as the leader from the saddle, then I need to establish my bona fides in the saddle. And it seems to me - and I'm struggling to figure this out - I ought to do it the way Mia did: take charge, but then also establish a track record of taking care of my horses. I need to show them I understand the difference between scary and scary-looking. I need to show them I won't put them in a spot where they will be hurt....
> 
> ...I can let them work on things by themselves. It goes back to Tom Roberts idea of letting a horse go past scary things on a slack rein - giving them freedom, and support, and letting them work out at least part of it for themselves. But when doing that, I need to be emotionally clear - sending a message of "I know you can do it" and total confidence in my horse. If I don't overwhelm him by putting him in a situation he can't handle, then the horse will learn confidence in himself and trust in me - in himself, because he succeeds, and in me, because I knew it all along.
> 
> I think THIS is what creates willing teamwork between horse and rider...
> 
> ...No one episode will win the battle. And since this is something I started trying with Mia, and am now still working on with bandit...well, it might fail. But it is based on my theory that horses have "horse sense", and that to get my horse's trust I must be trust-worthy....


Over 1000 posts later. 

What I'm seeing develop in Bandit is good enough for me. I think Bandit is proof I have chosen the right path.

Philosophy of riding. Everyone should have one. They don't all need to agree with mine. But mine is consistent and seems to be working well for my goals.


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## updownrider

Question for Gotta- I am trying to follow what you are saying, are "contact" and "on the bit" the same?


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## evilamc

I don't no know how to quote from my phone lol!

"

1 - I think the way to get smoother gaits and better control is to put the horse "OFF THE BIT". Realistically, as @gottatrot points out, a horse does NOT get to choose how much contact he gets when the contact is constant."

That doesn't answer my question! A lot of gaited horses if given loose rein and no correction when needed will pace because it's easier. So you'd ride the pace? Or would you pick up contact to correct, then go back to loose rein to keep them from pacing. End goal is gaiting on a loose rein but you can't train it without using contact st first so they get what you're asking for....imo. But just letting a gaited horse move along a lot of the times they'll pace, especially if they've built up the wrong muscles/have the wrong muscle memory...no one should WANT to ride a pace! So you have to train them back out of it.


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## bsms

evilamc said:


> ...A lot of gaited horses if given loose rein and no correction when needed will pace because it's easier. So you'd ride the pace? Or would you pick up contact to correct, then go back to loose rein to keep them from pacing. End goal is gaiting on a loose rein but you can't train it without using contact st first...


I know nothing about gaited horses. I didn't respond because I've never even SEEN a live gaited horse.

That said, my GOAL is to get the horse "off the bit". But yes, I use contact often. When Bandit arrived, he had been ridden primarily in a bosal for direction, backed up with a snaffle for emergency brakes if he got too fast and wouldn't stop. Pony express racing looks like this, BTW:











The first time I started to take slack out of the reins, with a snaffle, Bandit stopped so fast that only the poleys of my Aussie saddle kept me off his neck. Our first ride together was pretty unusual looking. THAT was when I called and was told he mostly used the bit as brakes...

We spent a few weeks working on using a snaffle with short contact, or for turns. I also still find contact useful when we canter in the open. If I gave him his head in the open, he'd go all out...contact kept him with me. But he has recently been slowing off of voice, or slowing because the other horse was falling too far behind, or slowing if I sit up straighter. In return, I've been using less contact.

My goal remains for him to be able to accelerate or slow based on my posture and voice, backed up with a little wiggle on the reins - if needed. When I took western lessons, I was told "_Seat, leg, reins (if needed)_" for turns, and "_Seat, voice, reins (if needed)_" for slowing.

If the horse has been taught constant contact...not my style, and I would retrain a horse I got like that...but it isn't "wrong". Horses get used to it, and millions ride that way all the time. But for crossing the desert, I prefer to teach a horse to get "Off the bit" instead of "On the bit". 

My point is that a horse who is "on the bit" may be better for dressage. He may be better for jumping, and maybe for some other sports. But he is not "better balanced" and doesn't "move better" by being on the bit. Millions of western horses move athletically and under reasonable control without constant contact. In that sense, I think I am a very mainstream western rider:

"_Seat, voice, reins (if needed)_".​


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## gottatrot

updownrider said:


> Question for Gotta- I am trying to follow what you are saying, are "contact" and "on the bit" the same?


I wouldn't say just using the word contact alone necessarily means "on the bit," because the way I've seen the term "on the bit" it refers to "consistent contact." So of course many riders contact the bit, unless riding a horse that is advanced at neck reining and only rides off the seat, legs and neck rein. 
So contacting the bit intermittently for cues would not equal riding "on contact," with "consistent contact," or "on the bit." I'm not as well read up on Western riding, partly because as @bsms said, there isn't a ton of writing on Western riding theory. If there is a different use of the term "on the bit" in Western, I'm not aware of what that might mean.

"On the bit" (as I've seen it used in my readings) is different from responding lightly to bit cues or bit pressure. A horse can be light and giving, responding quickly and softly to bit cues but not ridden constantly on the bit.
@evilamc, I'm not aware of anyone who thinks you should just let a horse do whatever they want and never contact the bit. Otherwise why would you use a bit, if you never needed it to give signals? Well, probably there are people who do some type of "freedom riding," and let the horse do whatever he wants. But I've never had a discussion with someone about that. I'm not sure why comments about not riding on constant contact would mean to never cue or correct a horse with the bit. I think that's a different topic. But yes, if a horse takes off in a gait or speed not asked for, the bit is helpful to cue them and say "wrong answer" or "slow down."


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## updownrider

> So of course many riders contact the bit


Gotta, your concept of contact and mine are not the same. When I discuss contact, it is with the horse's mouth, not the bit.


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## gottatrot

updownrider said:


> Gotta, your concept of contact and mine are not the same. When I discuss contact, it is with the horse's mouth, not the bit.


Puzzled...how can you have any appreciable amount of pressure/contact with the bit and not the mouth?


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## bsms

> Riding on contact is also called riding on the bit, or being, or moving on the bit, and unquestionably it is. I prefer, however, to differentiate between the two degrees of the same thing, "on contact" being the milder form. Now what precisely is the difference?
> 
> Unfortunately it is one of those things which are so easy to point out in actuality and so difficult to describe in words. Here is my best attempt:
> 
> Suppose that after you have established contact between your hands and the mouth of a schooled horse you were to continue to urge the horse forward and you were to do it with increased strength. What will happen then? Evidently the horse will try to increase the speed of the gait. But if, at the same time, you restrain him with your hands just enough to maintain the original speed yet continue to urge, then the horse will accept the bit more firmly, slightly leaning on it. Concurrently, the energy which your legs have created and which your hands have prevented from being transformed into speed will form a reserve of energy enclosed between legs and hands. It will keep the horse in an animated state and he will begin to move more vigorously although maintaining the ordinary trot.
> 
> The cooperation between your legs and hands will enable you to obtain the maximum unity between the actions of the hindquarters and of the forehand. The horse's gait may become what is called "brilliant". A movement of better quality, academically speaking, is characteristic of riding fully on the bit.
> 
> In spite of my last remark I would suggest your riding merely on soft contact. I have at least two reasons. First of all, "brilliance" of gaits is not an advantage in hunting or ordinary jumping. It is rather an evil, because a very alert emotional state in the horse tends to border on excitement....
> 
> ...A second reason (an unpleasant admission) is that the average rider, if riding on the bit in the full sense of the word, will stiffen his horse, harden his mouth, excite him and turn him into a habitual puller. It requires a technique the mastering of which calls for more time than the majority of amateur riders in the United States have at their disposal. - VS Littauer, Schooling Your Horse, pages 53, 54


Although I normally like Littauer, this passage is one of those which shows why someone who is not an expert may see more clearly than someone who is.

I agree with how he differentiates between "soft contact" and "on the bit". You need the former before you can gain the latter, and it is certainly easier to do "soft contact" well than going for "on the bit". But it also reveals a blindness, an unquestioned acceptance of dogma, like a fish who cannot imagine air.

For starters, he assumes soft contact is a requirement for good riding. But if the goal is to give a cue, softly, then certainly is it easier for a horse to notice and respond to a 5 lb cue from someone who normally allows the horse to move with 1-2 lbs of pressure in the mouth - slack reins. There is no option to "communicate" with the horse at less than 5 lbs of pressure if one continuously rides with 3-6 lbs of pressure!

He also is stuck on riding the horse's body instead of the horse's mind. This:



> "Concurrently, the energy which your legs have created and which your hands have prevented from being transformed into speed will form a reserve of energy enclosed between legs and hands."


Is poppycock.

First, your legs do NOT create energy. Your legs ASK THE HORSE to create energy, using HIS legs. This is not semantics. It is very important to understand that WE do NOT create energy. WE are sitting in the saddle. The HORSE creates energy.

Second, your hands to not contain the energy. You ask the horse to divert the energy, or to use it in a different way. Your hands ASK THE HORSE to do something with the energy other than go faster.

This combines to create the third problem. By putting the horse on the bit, you do NOT "form a reserve of energy enclosed between legs and hands". *Just as your legs do not create it and your hands do not hold it in, there is no reserve of energy created. It is used.* Energy is not steam held in a boiler, ready for the rider to turn the valve and use it. Energy, with EVERY STRIDE, is created BY THE HORSE, IN HIS MUSCLES. The muscles move the legs, and the created energy becomes kinetic energy - energy in motions.

AND IT IS USED. It can be used to go forward or it can be used to go up, but it cannot be stored. It never bounces off the bit and goes into the rider. There is no circle of energy, and no amount of writing otherwise or talk by infinitely experienced riders can change that fact.

The horse's muscles create the energy. The legs convert it to movement. That movement is used. With the next stride, the horse's muscles once again create energy. The legs convert it to movement. It is used.

That is why Mia could be trotting down a trail, utterly uncollected, and then spin 180 in a 6' wide opening and leap into the opposite direction with enough force for the poleys to bruise my thighs. Because SHE was creating energy. She had to do it for every stride. *And SHE - and SHE ALONE - got to decide how it was used*.

All I could do was ask. That is all I can EVER do. I never, EVER control the horse's muscles. That means I never, EVER control the energy. I can only ASK the horse to USE it.

And that strikes at the heart and soul of the "on the bit" theory.

When I keep constant pressure on the bit, I am NOT holding energy. I am applying pressure to the horse's mouth. If I do it constantly, I am not communicating anything either. I am just creating a steady state - or not so steady, as it turns out - of background noise. Any attempt at communication will then require a louder noise - *like shouting in a bar* to be heard instead of _whispering in the forest_!

If I am not holding energy in, if the horse will need to create it anew for every stride, then there is no justification for "Abstossen":


> ...ideally, the horse’s energy should travel from his thrusting hindquarters through his back and to the bit. Then the energy should recycle, transferring some weight from the front end back to the hindquarters. This circle of energy is ongoing...
> 
> ...As we’ve explained, the horse’s energy should travel from his thrusting hind leg, through his back, to the bit. However, if the energy went only from back to front and stopped there, then the horse would lean on the bit and be heavy...
> 
> ..Most riders understand that the energy needs to get from the hindquarters to the bit, but some forget that there must also be a connection through the bit to the hindquarters. *When the rider uses rebalancing half-halts as frequently as the driving aids, the horse’s energy recycles. The energy reaches the bit and the horse “pushes away from the bit,”* causing the weight to transfer back to an engaged hind foot. Then the forehand lightens. The German word for this concept is *Abstossen*. When the horse pushes off from the bit, he continues to reach forward, *but the energy “bounces off" the bit and transfers to an engaged hind leg that is flat on the ground and carrying weight*. Then the horse thrusts again to perpetuate an ongoing cycle of energy.
> 
> The Heavy and the Light, by Lendon Gray, Lilo Fore, and Beth Baumert
> November 2013 USDF Connection





> Pushing off from the Bit: Abstossen
> 
> Abstossen is a German riding term meaning “to push oneself off.” The official instruction handbook of the German National Equestrian Federation, Advanced Techniques of Dressage, states:
> 
> “Pushing off from the bit is a sign that the horse is fully accepting the contact.... [The horse] yields to the contact by bouncing back lightly and almost imperceptibly from the bit. The rider feels the contact become even lighter and more refined.... In a correctly trained horse which ‘comes through,’ bouncing back or pushing away from the contact is...a frequently repeated process....”
> 
> When a rider is well trained, the aids are very subtle and they happen every step of the way. At every stride the rider’s seat and leg give a small aid to encourage the horse to seek the contact by engaging his hind legs, lifting his shoulders and the base of his frame, and stepping into the bit. There is a moment when the horse is strong, and then the educated horse “pushes away,” which shifts weight to the hindquarters and causes the horse to become lighter in the hand.
> 
> http://blythdale.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/Abstossen.pdf


No thank you! 

A horse who is mentally engages with his rider, who is anticipating and using judgment acquired through progressive challenges, doesn't need to be pushed into the bit, nor bounce off of it! The easiest way to get a horse lighter on the hand is not to use the hand all the time!

Ride the horse's mind. His body will then be yours.​ 
*'Let him think that he is our master, then he is our slave.'*​


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## updownrider

bsms- when you join Bernie's website, watch this video. It may say everyone wants to ride on the bit, but we know that is not true. You don't because you have different goals. But Bernie demonstrates many different degrees of contact, also a horse "on the bit", a horse hyperflexed, and a horse with no contact. Bernie worked with Littauer so he is showing us what Littauer taught him, but modernized. 

Riding on the Bit | Equestrian Coach


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## tinyliny

you are thinking of these things too literally, too much as if they are engineering equations.

Of course your legs don't 'create' energy. Of course they make the horse create the energy. They 'ask ' the horse. but, in that sense, they are the start of something.

and , if there is no reason for the hrose to NOT respond by speeding up, moving in a more forwardly energetic trajectory, then that is what you'll get. You arrive at a different reaction by use of the bit, or , the training that you've imposed, either with a bit, or a side pull, or a neck rope, that says to the horse, NO, do not actually speed up, is what 'compresses ' generated energy. it contains it, and slows it , pauses it, and 'gives' it into the hands or seat of the rider.


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## tinyliny

@updownrider . . . nice vid.


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## bsms

tinyliny said:


> you are thinking of these things too literally, too much as if they are engineering equations.
> 
> Of course your legs don't 'create' energy. Of course they make the horse create the energy. They 'ask ' the horse. but, in that sense, they are the start of something.
> 
> and , if there is no reason for the hrose to NOT respond by speeding up, moving in a more forwardly energetic trajectory, then that is what you'll get. ...NO, do not actually speed up, is what 'compresses ' generated energy. it contains it, and slows it , pauses it, and 'gives' it into the hands or seat of the rider.


The problem is that people DO believe these things literally, as your last two sentences show.

My legs do not "make" the horse create energy. They only ASK the horse to create and use energy. The European theory of equitation is so pervasively based on the idea that the human provides the mind and the horse provides the muscle, that experienced riders find it almost impossible to write without reverting to that thought. 

"_if there is no [physical] reason for the hrose to NOT respond by speeding up, moving in a more forwardly energetic trajectory, then that is what you'll get_"

I added physical, because the assumption seems to be that the horse REQUIRES a physical cause to create an effect.



> ...As soon as a person is prepared to follow his horse, his seat will come automatically. *His only problem then is the eternal one of the educationalist and the politician - that of getting what he wants out of his subject. This is an art, not a technique*; it is a skill, not a science. When to give in, when to press forward; when to exert authority and when to withdraw it - these are moments whose recognition cannot be taught by rule of thumb. They can only be recognized by the sympathetic - by the person who is not entirely engrossed in his own welfare...
> 
> ...A good horseman can assuredly talk to his horse through the bit just as well as I can talk to mine through his neck. The only drawback is that he has less encouragement to do so. *It is too easy to transform a request into a command. It is too easy for Man to be supreme.* - Adventures Unbridled - Moyra Williams 1960, my emphasis added


If one rides the mind, then one is forced to persuade. How does one get a horse to think, "_I want to do what my rider asks of me?_"

I think it starts with listening to the horse. He has no incentive to talk to someone who refuses to listen. And once one listens, and the horse opens up, one can then start making "mutually acceptable compromises". The horses gets some of what he wants - all of it sometimes, none of it sometimes, and part of it sometimes. But he also has to give the rider what the rider wants in order to also get what he wants.

Over time, if the rider makes good decisions and is fair, the horse will have good reason to listen. Wouldn't you want to listen to someone who almost always has good ideas, and who wants you to be both safe and happy? 


> ...Ridden by neck-aids, the horse is a free individual. It cannot be forced. It can not be controlled, but it can and does have to be guided. It has to have everything explained to it, and its cooperation has then to be won over. If it is asked to do anything absurd, it will merely say, "This fool rider does not know what he is talking about," and go its own way. It is hopeless to try riding by neck-aids until one has learnt the horse's language... - - Adventures Unbridled - Moyra Williams 1960


Of course, that is a life-long process. Bandit and I are total beginners. After 7 years with Mia, and 2.5 with Bandit, I am just beginning to seriously consider what is possible if one tries to work WITH the horse rather than DIRECT the horse.

*For the first time in my riding life, I'm seeing possibilities*. I'm seeing Bandit SOMETIMES do things based on my desires before I've asked him, or do them in contradiction to my cues - a horse who understands what WE are trying to do and who is pulling his weight as a partner.

But is also means I need to accept that, like a politician, I often will fail to persuade my followers to follow. It means I need to be ready to adapt my plans. It means I won't always get what I want. And for safety's sake, I may sometimes need to intervene, very forcibly. But IF it is for safety's sake, then I think Bandit will understand.



> ...There is another thing to be considered with regard to the horse's character - it loves to exercise its powers, and it possesses a great spirit of emulation; it likes variety of scene and amusement; and *under a rider that understands how to indulge it in all this without overtaxing its powers, will work willingly to the last gasp*, which is what entitles it to the name of a noble and generous animal... - On Seats and Saddles, by Francis Dwyer, Major of Hussars in the Imperial Austrian Service (1868)


That passage has become huge in my thought. I am just beginning to learn how to ride.

"_NO, do not actually speed up, is what 'compresses ' generated energy. it contains it_"

No. It is used. All of it. It never, ever "_slows it , pauses it, and 'gives' it into the hands or seat of the rider_". What the horse apparently does is increase the stride and uses the extended front part of a given stride to SLOW - to dissipate the energy it first created. On the front legs, he takes smaller strides, with higher impact pressures, and vaults the front higher.

It doesn't compress or contain energy. It doesn't return to the horse, nor is it made available to the rider. The energy available to you for the next stride comes from the horse's effort.

Note: That is not entirely true. There is an elasticity to muscle that CAN receive some of the "slow-down" energy of a stride and bounce it back out in the next one. But that is automatic and happens to some extent with every stride a horse ever takes. Primarily, the energy for the next stride is from the horse's muscle.

Mia used to sometimes jump sideways. It was rather disturbing for someone who rides around cactus, and even Mia eventually gave it up. But she could jump sideways 6 feet without me doing anything, and with no prior warning. 

She sometimes jumped invisible threats. She eventually gave that up as well, but it is one of the reasons I tend to lean forward so much. I just never knew when we were going to jump something in her mind. It has taken me a long time with Bandit to start giving up my worry.

Horses excel at explosive power. The explosive power that comes in the next stride, and the one after that, primarily comes from new energy created by the horse. I don't need to urge Bandit to create some energy, then store it up, then create some more, then store it up, and eventually have a horse who is ready to do a walk-canter transition. If BANDIT wants to transition, we will. Smoothly, on his part.

I don't need to store Bandits energy over a 10 second period to get a horse who is able to do a 180 degree turn that will nearly rip me out of the saddle. Bandit can do that any time he wants.

The challenge, of course, is how to get HIM to want what I want.


> *His only problem then is the eternal one of the educationalist and the politician - that of getting what he wants out of his subject. This is an art, not a technique*


PS - Excellent video, @updownrider. Less than 60 seconds, and it shows how that approach to riding should be done. But it doesn't answer what Littauer didn't explain - WHY would I want to use constant contact?


----------



## tinyliny

I know this is YOUR journal, and I shouldn't engage in lengthy discussions that verge on arguments with you. but, here goes . . 




bsms said:


> The problem is that people DO believe these things literally, as your last two sentences show.
> 
> My legs do not "make" the horse create energy. They only ASK the horse to create and use energy. The European theory of equitation is so pervasively based on the idea that the human provides the mind and the horse provides the muscle, that experienced riders find it almost impossible to write without reverting to that thought.
> YOu must know that I DO NOT believe the horse is not a part in 'mind' equation. Never have I said or implied this . quite the opposite.
> "_if there is no [physical] reason for the hrose to NOT respond by speeding up, moving in a more forwardly energetic trajectory, then that is what you'll get_"
> 
> I added physical, because the assumption seems to be that the horse REQUIRES a physical cause to create an effect.
> Yes, If there is no 'signal' from the rider to NOT speed up, the addition of leg cues from the rider is likely to create increased speed. and, the cues are physical, because no matter what we do with horses, they are physical beings, so even the minutest cue , barely visible to the onlooker , IS physical. Me being not a magician with a horse, I will use the typical things;
> rein/hand closure, firming of the abdomen , more thigh on the the horse, maybe a pause in my breathing, even a voice cue. so, yes, it's physical. I didn't think a person even had to say that, since it's obvious.
> 
> If one rides the mind, then one is forced to persuade. How does one get a horse to think, "_I want to do what my rider asks of me?_"
> 
> Again, you know me and you know that I am all about riding the mind. All about using persuasion and enticement. However, I am not a magician. I , like millions of riders, use a bit. the bit does create discomfort, or even pain. I "ask", but I am not begging. If the horse cannot slow, due to anxiety, lack of fitness, rough ground, the fair rider eases up and tries again, when the horse is better able to answer 'yes' to your ask. But, yes, we do put requests/demands on the horse to try more, work harder, be different. perhaps this is what irks you so.
> I think it starts with listening to the horse. He has no incentive to talk to someone who refuses to listen. And once one listens, and the horse opens up, one can then start making "mutually acceptable compromises". The horses gets some of what he wants - all of it sometimes, none of it sometimes, and part of it sometimes. But he also has to give the rider what the rider wants in order to also get what he wants.
> The rider who does not listen with compassion and fairness should not be asking. I agree.
> Over time, if the rider makes good decisions and is fair, the horse will have good reason to listen. Wouldn't you want to listen to someone who almost always has good ideas, and who wants you to be both safe and happy?
> Of course, that is a life-long process. Bandit and I are total beginners. After 7 years with Mia, and 2.5 with Bandit, I am just beginning to seriously consider what is possible if one tries to work WITH the horse rather than DIRECT the horse.
> If you think what I have said is not in agreement with this, then somehow I am not communicating well.
> 
> *For the first time in my riding life, I'm seeing possibilities*. I'm seeing Bandit SOMETIMES do things based on my desires before I've asked him, or do them in contradiction to my cues - a horse who understands what WE are trying to do and who is pulling his weight as a partner.
> 
> But is also means I need to accept that, like a politician, I often will fail to persuade my followers to follow. It means I need to be ready to adapt my plans. It means I won't always get what I want. And for safety's sake, I may sometimes need to intervene, very forcibly. But IF it is for safety's sake, then I think Bandit will understand.
> Yep. agree here, too.
> That passage has become huge in my thought. I am just beginning to learn how to ride.
> 
> "_NO, do not actually speed up, is what 'compresses ' generated energy. it contains it_"
> 
> No. It is used. All of it. It never, ever "_slows it , pauses it, and 'gives' it into the hands or seat of the rider_". What the horse apparently does is increase the stride and uses the extended front part of a given stride to SLOW - to dissipate the energy it first created. On the front legs, he takes smaller strides, with higher impact pressures, and vaults the front higher.
> I am not talking about a mathemetical formula. Ok, I doubt you could do trajectories and logorythms and find all that energy compressed.
> It is about potential energy, having the horse pause, like you said, letting the hind legs move a bit faster, further forward, in preperation for a change in action. Even if not explosion occurs, the action of preparting for this makes the horse's mind pause, too. In riding with a horse where the trust is good, you asking him to pause, slow, collect is asking him to make himself more available to you for a following request. That is what is meant by having compressed energy
> It doesn't compress or contain energy. It doesn't return to the horse, nor is it made available to the rider. The energy available to you for the next stride comes from the horse's effort.
> 
> Note: That is not entirely true. There is an elasticity to muscle that CAN receive some of the "slow-down" energy of a stride and bounce it back out in the next one. But that is automatic and happens to some extent with every stride a horse ever takes. Primarily, the energy for the next stride is from the horse's muscle.
> the compression is from the horse , in theory, putting more bend in his hock joints. when they are flexed, they are ready to push the body either forward or upward or both.
> 
> Mia used to sometimes jump sideways. It was rather disturbing for someone who rides around cactus, and even Mia eventually gave it up. But she could jump sideways 6 feet without me doing anything, and with no prior warning. I know the feeling. Mac used to spin so fast it was blinding, and I hit the deck 5 times! But, he always bounced off his front legs, so it was more of drop of the body down between his shoulders, and a powerful push off those front legs, and a sidways swing. that's one reason he could do it so fast; he wasn't rocked back on his hind legs. but, that slight 'drop' onto his front legs is what put me off balance, followed by the swing of the whole body sideways, which was with a feeling of 'whiplash' toward the front, was like being on the very furthest point of a gate from the hinge, and having someone swing the gate rapidly sideways; very hard to resist the forces.
> 
> If you are closer to the hinge, , or if you have a swinging mechanism that is not at one edge of the gate, but closer to the middle, and you are sitting on top of the gate there, it will be much easier to stay on top of the swinging gate.
> My guess is that Mia is pretty balanced and could shift back with enough power and speed to dodge sideways like lightening. Mac did not shift his weight backward, but, like I said, sort of 'bounce' off his front legs, planted further out in front of him. devastating hard to stay on!
> 
> a horse CAN swing/ jump sideways mighty fast, and it would be good for a cowboy working a steer, if he's a good enough rider. But, if the horse is prepared by that 'pause', asked to compress the hind legs slightly, they will be more able to turn ever so slightly over the hind part of the body, which is easier for the rider. not faster. not as efficient to catch /dodge a cow. but, eaiser to stay on for the rider.
> 
> She sometimes jumped invisible threats. She eventually gave that up as well, but it is one of the reasons I tend to lean forward so much. I just never knew when we were going to jump something in her mind. It has taken me a long time with Bandit to start giving up my worry.
> 
> Horses excel at explosive power. The explosive power that comes in the next stride, and the one after that, primarily comes from new energy created by the horse. I don't need to urge Bandit to create some energy, then store it up, then create some more, then store it up, and eventually have a horse who is ready to do a walk-canter transition. If BANDIT wants to transition, we will. Smoothly, on his part. Of course. YOu don't need to. many times I transition into a canter not by any sort of containment at all. I just raise the energy in my body and the horse feeds off of that change and leans forward and falls into a faster gait that becomes a canter. That's fine. But, if I want a depart that is controlled, at a certain speed, on a certain lead, at a certain place, I use the 'pause' to ask the horse to compress a bit, slow and get ready to move as I ask.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't need to store Bandits energy over a 10 second period to get a horse who is able to do a 180 degree turn that will nearly rip me out of the saddle. Bandit can do that any time he wants.
> who ever said anything about that? do you WANT him to nearly rip you out of the saddle?
> The challenge, of course, is how to get HIM to want what I want.
> 
> Here is where I come back to the original discussion (one I should have exited from way back, if I had any sense) That at least being ABLE to get a hrose onto the bit, ABLE to get a half halt, ABLE to get a canter depart that isn't one of just speeding up into it . . . are things that develop, not inhibit, the overall relationship with the horse. A horse that can, and will , do that for a tactful rider is a beautiful thing.
> Do it on and on? hold them there, all day? no. That would destroy the trust they put in you and make them resent you for asking so much.
> PS - Excellent video, @*updownrider* . Less than 60 seconds, and it shows how that approach to riding should be done. But it doesn't answer what Littauer didn't explain - WHY would I want to use constant contact?


My remarks in red, as usual.

I didn't see the person in the video using constant contact. Maybe , but it was living contact, light, responsive, dialogueing contact. my assumption is that it would be used for a while to build up the horse's acceptance and ability to respond to it without resistance, to slow the horse when doing a round wherein you need them to slow down before a jump, etc. I doubt they ride like that all the time.


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## bsms

Personally, I think animated but polite discussions between folks coming from different perspectives are helpful. I can't learn anything from an echo chamber. Although it is hard to write in a way that clearly indicates one is discussing IDEAS and not saying someone is a bad person, or bad rider, etc. 

I am well aware you are concerned with the horse's mind and willing obedience. And western riding, like ANY riding, has a strong element of "Obey or else" riders.

That said....

Where we disagree is on the value of a horse being on the bit.

Your goals include some I don't share. I have no idea how one teaches a horse to use a collected gait without doing SOMETHING with the bit. And since I see no value in collection for its own sake, I'll never try. 

The vertical headset thing does bother me. It raises a question: If a horse is tucked under at the rear, and lifting at the front, but his head is at a 45 degree angle while he looks ahead - is he "collected"?

"_That at least being ABLE to get a horse onto the bit, ABLE to get a half halt, ABLE to get a canter depart that isn't one of just speeding up into it . . . are things that develop, not inhibit, the overall relationship with the horse._"

WHY?

If I can get Bandit to ride bitless someday, accelerating when asked, slowing when asked, twisting and turning between cactus, dropping into and climbing out of washes, keeping the other horses in line when they get nervous, etc - why would THAT not be indicative of a better relationship?

Frankly, what in the heck does a "Half-halt" have to offer me? Or any horse outside the show ring? When I need Bandit to go up a steep spot, I don't need to give him a half-halt. In a brief ride this morning, letting him lean slightly - which is all it takes as he learns how much lean to get an effect - Bandit was turning in about a 30 foot circle, sustained, cantering. Trotting in about a 20' diameter turn. With a little practice, I think we can cut that in half.

Today, as the other day, he gave me some 180 degree turns without my using the reins at all. No leg use that I was conscious of. So in what sense is that not BETTER than needing to give a half-halt, then direct him thru a turn? Why is being able to TRUST him to understand and perform a sign of a poorer relationship and poorer training than it would be if his head was vertical and he did the turns staring at his front feet?

And Bandit - half-mustang ridden in pony express races, retrained by a 59 year old self-taught rider with a perpetually stiff back - has NO trouble NOW with canter departs _"that [aren't] one of just speeding up into it"_. I can get that without using a bit at all. So why is THAT inferior?

This is what I believe is the fundamental difference between English and western riding. People focus on the saddle. I think it is the use of the reins and bit, and the western belief in "self-carriage". You don't cut cattle or rope much if using a horse who needs the rider to pay attention to the horse. Now...I don't have any cattle...but I have no idea how one could rope or cut rough cattle if the rider needed to focus on the horse. I can only see it working if the rider can do HIS job while the horse takes care of the rest!

Getting my horse to look at his front feet when we are moving beyond a crawl is detrimental - detrimental to balance and to reasonableness. I don't think any horse thinks it is reasonable to stare at his feet. If my goal is to get Bandit to listen to me, not because I demand it but because I am truly worth listening to, then a great way to destroy that trust would be to trap him between the driving aids and restraining aids, and insist he look where we are not going. 

"_But, if I want a depart that is controlled, at a certain speed, on a certain lead, at a certain place, I use the 'pause' to ask the horse to compress a bit, slow and get ready to move as I ask_."

Western riders, traditionally, have not. Traditionally, western riders have been able to train horses to do controlled departures, at certain speeds and leads and at certain spots, without doing half-halts. What HAS been done, CAN be done. And if it can be done, why not do it?

Now...can I do it reliably? No.

But Bandit and I aren't exactly diamonds of riding. More like sacks of coal. I'm a sack of coal who reads but who has had very little live instruction, and has ended up rejecting most of the live instruction I've received. A Craigslist rider on a Craigslist horse. *Two scrubs, six legs!*

But when I wrote "No", I really meant, "Not yet". Because we ARE getting there, and doing it while rejecting collection and on the bit and soft contact and conscious use of leg and almost everything else that the English riding books tell me I need.

But thanks for all the effort you are putting into your replies. It would be so much easier if we could go for a ride together and talk horses over dinner! The Internet is great for meeting, but it is so hard to have polite and thoughtful disagreement on!

I don't think the traditional English approach is "wrong". It is hard to argue with millions of horses doing things well. But then, I feel that way about western riding. Millions of horses getting the job done can't be all wrong.​:cheers:​


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## tinyliny

think of it not as necessary, but just an additional fun thing to do. like Dancing. it isn't necessary, but it is fun. I hardly ever ask X to come onto the bit. but, knowing that I can, and that he will gives an extra element.

Sometimes I ask him before we head down a hill, so that he is aware that he should slow down a bit, again, for me. I don't want him just ambling or crashing down the hill I ask him to slow, collect, pause, balance back a bit, then I give him head to start down the hill. I will sometimes stop mid hill and ask him to rebalance, and BACK up a hill. this is to build his muscles, and his willingness to stop when asked, even if it's easier for him to slog down the hill. it's an exersize.
That's about what I might use putting him on the bit for , as a trail rider. 
it's just about slowing, rocking back, rebalancing a bit, and getting ready for a change.


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## updownrider

bsms said:


> PS - Excellent video, @updownrider . Less than 60 seconds, and it shows how that approach to riding should be done. But it doesn't answer what Littauer didn't explain - WHY would I want to use constant contact?


To be fair, you read books and watch videos about Dressage and Jumping, and there must be some level of control and training to ask a horse to jump or ask a horse to execute dressage movements. 

Yes, I say ask a horse. Dressage and Jumping horses are asked by a cue to perform a movement or jump an obstacle and trained to say yes.

Note: You only watched a preview of Bernie's video.


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## gottatrot

> *Bsms* - WHY would I want to use constant contact?


This is what it comes down to for me. @Tinyliny talks about many things that I've been taught as well, and for me the issue comes when you believe making the horse accept continuous contact is important, necessary, that the horse is using his body better, that he is not well trained as well without it, etc. 

It's not that I feel many horses ridden with the contact such as in the video are being mishandled, but why is it believed so pervasively that we must train horses this way? Again, it's not just English riders that are training this, but Western riders as well. I have seen over and over the show horses practicing before their Western classes with the rider "reminding" the horse that he must hold his head and neck in a certain way, and riding him into the contact until he "softens" and then the rider drops the contact and tries to get the horse to hold the position. The winning horses hold the position for a long time with few reminders.

It is the belief that horses must move this way and not raise their neck or "hollow" the back that drives so much of training, especially for showing. One time I tried an experiment. At one show I let my horse move naturally with her head up and nose out, and didn't win any ribbons even though her transitions were sharp and she was moving quietly in a nice, balanced rhythm. The next show I rode her on bit contact, putting her neck down unnaturally low and her nose behind the vertical. This made her canter transitions more on the forehand, her trot more stilted, and I won ribbons because she had the right look even though she was using her body worse. 

I've just read so many convincing things including the recent post by @bsms that have changed my beliefs away from those widely held but not scientifically backed philosophies about how and why we ride horses with the neck elongated or arched rather than held up, and about how we contain the horse's energy and balance him with our hands and the bit. 

This old guy is crazy...the way he rides. But his points are very thought-provoking. As he points out in the article below, if energy was from limb angulation (such as the hocks), then how can a tiny dog with straight legs leap several times his own height in the air? The truth is that the muscles and tendons themselves store the energy and release it. It's not the bend of the hock that allows for more propulsion if the horse can get his weight over his haunches. The entire body of muscles, joints and tendons store energy and propel the horse, with the front end creating more upward force than the hind in measured studies. 

This you can easily see in the rearing horse at about the 1 minute mark. It's his front end that provides the most lift. I'd never thought a lot about this before, but when horses have reared with me I realize now I didn't feel the hind legs pushing but rather felt the front legs thrusting me up. 





Mechanoresponsiveness 34

I believe that understanding these concepts will help my riding. It's not that I want an easier way. I just feel that it is a lot of wasted time and effort working to get a horse to accept a constant contact and work into it, if it doesn't actually help their balance or locomotion the way I've always thought it did. If it doesn't strengthen the back or build the correct muscles so the horse can carry a rider better, if it doesn't lead to more balanced turns and get the horse off his forehand, then why would I spend the time training the horse to do it?


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## updownrider

> but why is it believed so pervasively that we must train horses this way?


I will try to answer and I will speak for the riders I know who have a goal to ride dressage or jump. As I said above, there must be some level of control and training to ask a horse to jump or ask a horse to execute dressage movements. Safety of the horse and rider are paramount.


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## gottatrot

updownrider said:


> I will try to answer and I will speak for the riders I know who have a goal to ride dressage or jump. As I said above, there must be some level of control and training to ask a horse to jump or ask a horse to execute dressage movements. Safety of the horse and rider are paramount.


But see, you are equating control and training with the ability of the horse to be on the bit. As others have pointed out, a horse can do quick turns and one tempi changes at a certain point in the arena without having a constant contact on the bit. Same with jumping. A rider can go around a course without having bit pressure. A very hot horse is probably going to have more contact with the bit to keep him from rushing, but is that better training? That is actually my point, that it is believed that a horse is better trained if they are taught to accept a constant bit pressure. That is the bias I've had in the past, but I don't believe it anymore. 

As with my experience in the show ring, dressage has become so congruous with the ideas of keeping contact with the bit, that a person could not show successfully without putting the horse on the bit. There are many examples of horses in collection and extension doing all the dressage movements without a bridle on the internet. So obviously it is not necessary, but as threads on this forum have shown, people are very against the idea of showing dressage without a bit. Jumping is a different story, and there are many cases of riders going around on loose reins, bitless, bridless, etc.
















Again, I'm not against the idea of using bits, or cueing with bits, or having contact with the reins at times. I'm against the pervasive idea that horses must be taught to move into prolonged bit pressure and "accept" it, in order to be well trained. Not even for athletic, fast paced events.


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## bsms

tinyliny said:


> think of it not as necessary, but just an additional fun thing to do. like Dancing. it isn't necessary, but it is fun..
> 
> Sometimes I ask him before we head down a hill, so that he is aware that he should slow down a bit, again, for me. I don't want him just ambling or crashing down the hill I ask him to slow, collect, pause, balance back a bit, then I give him head to start down the hill. I will sometimes stop mid hill and ask him to rebalance...
> 
> ...it's just about slowing, rocking back, rebalancing a bit, and getting ready for a change.


Done for fun, I understand. I'll ask my horses to do something just because I want to do it, and they generally do. Particularly if they trust I'll let them do something THEY want to do a little later.

What I object to are terms like "better balanced" or "using their backs better". The word and judgment "better" is what I object to.

Now, before I head down a hill, I want my horse to have experienced other hills, shorter and less steep, and to have built up his experience in going down hills. When we head down a hill, I don't collect him so he'll know to slow down a bit. He does what is needed, because he has been trained to know how to go down hills.

He'll amble down some, if our general pace is ambling. He won't crash down any. Not prudent. Dangerous, even. The steeper it is, the more cautious he'll be going down. Trooper is more experienced, having been ridden in the mountains. If need be, he'll test each step,moving his hoof around until THAT foot feels right, and then the next step.








​ 
Those sheepherders are not trained riders. They don't know anything about collection, and neither do their horses - both half-brothers to Trooper. But a couple of weeks after this picture was taken, they were grazing their sheep on the mountain slopes ahead. And riding their horses on those slopes, all day. I did vegetation surveys on some of those slopes nearly 40 years ago, on foot. Tough going!

But horses can do it. Trooper did. Bandit could not, not unless he learned more first. But no one rides there using half-halts, on the bit, or re-balancing their horse. I think that is superior to a horse who needs to be re-balanced, who cannot be trusted on his own. The horses ridden on the slopes above the cliffs are ridden with slack reins. No one has the guts to do otherwise!

If someone wants to suggest putting a horse on the bit is best for competing in dressage or jumping, have at it! I don't object to either and I wont tell anyone how to train for them!

But I strongly object to the idea that a horse "on the bit" is *better balanced* than one "off the bit".



gottatrot said:


> ...One time I tried an experiment. At one show I let my horse move naturally with her head up and nose out, and didn't win any ribbons even though her transitions were sharp and she was moving quietly in a nice, balanced rhythm. The next show I rode her on bit contact, putting her neck down unnaturally low and her nose behind the vertical. This made her canter transitions more on the forehand, her trot more stilted, and I won ribbons because she had the right look even though she was using her body worse...


I posted this picture some years back, and was told emphatically that Trooper was hollow-backed and out of control:








​ 
The saddle and pad cover his entire back, so they were not basing their assessment on his back. His legs? His hind feet are going underneath & his front are not stretching out, so he obviously is not strung out. And if he had been hollow backed, he'd be stiff and rough and my daughter wouldn't have been comfortable riding him.

Same with out of control. The reins are resting on the saddle horn, but he is playing with my daughter. They are goofing off. He was doing exactly what she wanted, while she wanted it, and changed what he did when her desires changed.

But...he isn't looking at his feet. Same with Bandit a few days ago:








​ 
I've had a number of people tell me a horse like that is moving badly, unbalanced, hollow-backed, tense, completely undesirable...but I was on him. My DIL rode him, ans she was all smiles and saying how easy it was to canter on him. _It isn't fun to canter on a strung-out, hollow-backed horse!

_


gottatrot said:


> ...Again, it's not just English riders that are training this, but Western riders as well. I have seen over and over the show horses practicing before their Western classes with the rider "reminding" the horse that he must hold his head and neck in a certain way, and riding him into the contact until he "softens" and then the rider drops the contact and tries to get the horse to hold the position. The winning horses hold the position for a long time with few reminders...


What a lot of western show riding has descended to makes me sick. They will intimidate a horse into holding a false position so they can satisfy the superficial judgment of judges, and that is winning?

I pulled this from the Internet. Don't know who it is, and their face isn't showing anyways. I find nothing to admire in this:










“_Unfortunately, it is much easier to turn to false practice than to achieve what is correct.” François Robichon de laGueriniere (1688-1751_)​ 
An emphasis on "round" and a misunderstanding of dressage has turned some western arena sports into caricatures. Using intimidation makes it worse, far worse. I think that picture is proof that people can love horses, be very experienced - and blind to what they are actually doing.



> For what the horse does under compulsion, as Simon also observes, is done without understanding; and there is no beauty in it either, any more than if one should whip and spur a dancer. - Xenophon


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## bsms

updownrider said:


> I will try to answer and I will speak for the riders I know who have a goal to ride dressage or jump. As I said above, there must be some level of control and training to ask a horse to jump or ask a horse to execute dressage movements. Safety of the horse and rider are paramount.


I have no problem believing most horses and most riders with those goals will get better results from using a bit. In jumping, at least, if most got better results bitless...they would.

And I'm a fan of curb bits. I hope to try Bandit in a leather sidepull later this week (supposed to arrive Wednesday). But I am not certain he'll feel any freer in it than in his solid shank curb.

I certainly would NOT want to have tried retraining him to ride MY way rather than how he had been ridden, and to introduce him to human neighborhoods - which he still finds scary - while bitless.

When I got Mia, I didn't know enough to reject the Internet advice about bitless...and made Mia worse. Much worse, because I couldn't control her enough to teach her or to keep her safe until she DID understand!

But if one horse needs a bit to do X, and another horse can do X well bitless, which has better training? If one horse needs to be on the bit to do X safely, while another does X safely off the bit, which is better trained? I'm a big fan of bits. And I believe some sports & horses need them to perform at their best.

But I'm a trail rider. All of my horses will be ridden by occasional riders. I want Bandit to get to where Trooper is now - a horse I trust to take a young or brand new rider out on a trail ride. Cowboy regularly takes new or very infrequent riders out, using a curb bit. And it works. I've never known anyone to jerk his face with a curb bit. Brand new riders understand that.

My only real objection to putting a horse "on the bit" or teaching collection is when it is claimed to be universally superior to a horse who is off the bit.


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## updownrider

Gotta - First, you seem to again be using the terms 'on the bit' and 'contact' [with the horse's mouth] interchangeably. They are not necessarily the same and this discussion is just going around and around. 

In my opinion, the riders in those pictures you posted will not be able to progress to a higher level as they are riding in those pictures. There is nothing wrong with that, however, the goals of the riders I discuss and the books that Littauer, Morris, Cronin, etc. write educate riders so they can advance to higher levels. There are many beginner riding books, even Morris wrote one, but even those discuss contact. English riding books discuss contact. 

If someone does not share the same goals as a Dressage rider or Jumping rider and rejects the ideas of tried and true methods, then that is perfectly ok. But to be vocally against a necessary and successful method of something that you do not participate in because your goals are completely different is puzzling to me.


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## updownrider

> My only real objection to putting a horse "on the bit" or teaching collection is when it is claimed to be universally superior to a horse who is off the bit.


Universally superior? :eek_color:
My answer to that is don't believe everything you read on the Internet, especially from anonymous people. :shrug:


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## bsms

Back to riding...

Here is a comparison of my $1800 leather saddle and my $400 Abetta:










Rode the Abetta today, using slightly shorter stirrups than I normally do. It has limited stirrup adjustments, so I'm either a little longer or shorter - went shorter today.

Rode Bandit solo just a little ways, with Trooper screaming in protest. For whatever reason, Bandit gave me his hardest startle in months while going down the paved road. We went on, then turned around. Coming back, he startled again at the same spot, then twice more in the next 60 seconds.

The good news? I may need to work a little to keep the stirrups from slipping back, but I felt like I was glued in the Abetta's seat. Combined with heels down (to keep the stirrups from sliding back on me), I felt absolutely comfortable! 

The leather saddle is wider. That is fine on Trooper and Mia, who had wider backs. But on narrow, slab-sided Bandit, it shoves my knee off him and then my legs hang down parallel to him. The smaller Abetta leaves my legs hanging AROUND him - or as "around" as that straight-sided fellow can be!

So after the 4th startle, I got ****ed, jumped in his mouth, spun him around (one hand), then popped him in the sides and we went back past the startle spots. Then turned again, and repeat. Then two more times. Very directive.

As I understand it, western riding uses the bit as a barrier. 
."_Do what I want, and I won't use the bit at all. Need guidance? I'll use it a LITTLE. But act stupid, or do something dangerous - shying away, or dropping your back while twisting 45 degrees - and I'll jump in your mouth. You've now hit the electric fence. It won't CHASE you, but if you insist on grabbing it with your mouth.._."​.

Coming back the last time, he decided to trot. I said no. We don't trot because he is worried about something behind him. Bad training. Once he walked 100 yards, I asked him for a trot. He then got to do what HE wanted, because he first did what I NEEDED.

He was still tense when we got to the arena, so I gave him all the slack and let him eat. Except he didn't WANT to eat. So I tried something. Kept tons of slack, and just sat in the saddle while he trotted, walked, cantered, turned fast - whatever he wanted to get the boogers out of his brain. The Abetta felt GREAT. Very easy to just sit there and let him do all the work.

After 10 minutes, he settled and ate. So I dismounted, took the tack off, and let him eat some more.

I'm shocked at how good the Abetta felt today.


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## greentree

I was scrolling through a page that I thought I read before, and something caught my eye, but I had already pushed the button fo r "last"(page), so I have NO idea where I saw it.....sorry. But here is what I saw, and what I thought immmediately:

Feeling. Feeling is the difference between the horse that spooks (and bucks, and bolts, and....) and the one that does not. There are some VERY good riders who never have any feeling. It may correlate with skill somehow, but skill and feeling are not the same. 
Feeling allows a rider to sense the signals of the animal and react (or relax) at the exact moment that is require to de-escalate the behavior. It is feeling that makes it seem like the horse always acts perfectly for someone else(trainer). 
In just a flick of an ear, or a glance of an eye,or a certain tightening of a muscle, A rider with feeling knows to pick up on a rein to avoid a buck, use a little inside or outside leg to avoid a spook, push forward to avoid a balk or stop. 

Horses are quite sensitive to frustration, and it usually escalates the problem. Whoa may be a better alternative. If he spooks, say whoa, and have him stand there , with YOU paying close attention to your relaxation. Then , pay attention to his relaxation. When everyone relaxes, walk on.

Good Luck!


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## bsms

greentree said:


> A rider with feeling knows to pick up on a rein to avoid a buck, use a little inside or outside leg to avoid a spook, push forward to avoid a balk or stop. ...If he spooks, say whoa, and have him stand there , with YOU paying close attention to your relaxation. Then , pay attention to his relaxation. When everyone relaxes, walk on.
> 
> Good Luck!


I'm sure that works with some horses. But for some, asking them to stand there would be torment. I think that is a part of "feel" - learning what will help a given horse, which may be very different from what helps a different horse.

Yesterday, when we got back to our little arena, I gave Bandit plenty of slack and let him eat grass - usually a high priority for a horse who lives in a dry lot corral. But he was unsettled and didn't WANT to eat. He wanted to move.

So for the next 10 minutes, we moved. When he wanted, where he wanted, at the speed he wanted. I just stayed on and waited. I stopped him a couple of times, on a patch of green grass, but he didn't want to stop.

With Bandit, and Mia before him, there was no such thing as using a little leg to avoid a spook. If Bandit is starting to feel a little nervous, then there are often things one can do to help him relax - mainly by either convincing him the rider has seen whatever is bothering him and it is OK, or by letting him move in such a way that he will feel less threatened.

That works for garbage cans, a horse or bicyclist approach, etc.

But if something startles him, if it catches HIM by surprise, he will respond immediately. After a couple of years, he now holds his ground after his initial startle reaction. But his startle reaction may include a jump sideways, like when we were cantering and he spotted an empty bag of chips by the trail. It may be like yesterday, when a jolt went thru his back and he dropped and turned 45 degrees all as one motion.

Now...he then took a deep breath and straightened up. I figure that is all I can ask of a horse. If he can startle and then hold his ground, and then straighten back up...I'm happy.

Our conflict yesterday was when he didn't shake it off his mind, but started reacting several times in a row and wanting to speed up to get away. THAT was not acceptable. It is just too dangerous a behavior. He USED to do it, but we're not going BACK there.

He has calmed a lot, and is not a "hot horse". A hot horse, to me, is one who gets elevated to near boiling, and then STAYS elevated. Mia could stay at 205 degrees for 20 minutes, no problem! Bandit, OTOH, can react just as hard. May even boil over. But a minute later, he can be at 180 degrees, and 3 minutes after that be room temperature! That ability to calm quickly, combined with his inability to hold a grudge against his rider, makes him a MUCH easier ride. He can even get ****ed at me, and 2 minutes later be asking, "_So...what are we going to do together now?_"

I don't comment on @phantomhorse13 's journal often, but I love reading it. After countless miles - well, OK, I think phantomhorse13 counts them, but they seem like uncountable miles to me - Phin may still get...animated.



phantomhorse13 said:


> ...We didn't even get out of the yard before Phin's first heart attack, which was a result of the OMG-Where-Did-That-Come-From (new) Deck, which was occupied by the Horse-Cooking Grill from H#ll (which had a slighty flapping cover over it). I would have laughed if I wasn't so busy trying to keep him from leaving the area.
> 
> ...Walking itself is apparently hard because it gives the monsters a longer window to attack. And there were monsters everywhere.. :icon_rolleyes:
> 
> Note the Horse-Eating Trees..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After climbing the Sugarloaf did nothing to settle him down, I decided to change things up...
> 
> Well it sure mattered to Phin! Even though he has been that route a bunch of times, seeing things from the opposite way was Very, Very Bad.
> 
> Here we have the Impaling Sign of Death, which was located alarmingly near the Killer Soybeans..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This path was a huge conundrum for Phin as it was heading towards home, but had both Killer Soybeans _and_ Horse-Eating Trees......6.89 miles, 1042 feet of climb, 4.1 mph average pace, 62F real feel...


It has helped my riding AND my horses to understand that horses can and will react. And yes, when they get elevated, there ARE things one can do to help them. But when I owned Mia, I read thousands of posts about how I just needed to be confident, or work with her in the arena until she would respond to my seat (she would - in an arena), etc. Then she would stop spooking. Supposedly.

Looking back, what helped her some and helped Bandit more was just accepting them for who they are, and accept what they can give me at a given time...and keep going. If I wasn't the CAUSE of it, then I could accept that time and experience would reduce it - but never eliminate it. Like my farrier puts it, "_If you want to ride a horse like Trooper, then saddle him up and ride him. But if you keep saddling Bandit...ride Bandit._"

In many ways, I agree with you, greentree. There ARE things a good rider can do that will help the horse. Subtle things. Things a person watching probably won't even notice. But I know of no way to learn how to do that besides mounting up and letting the horse teach you. It comes from both an observant nature AND experience. As they say, "*Good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgment...*"


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## bsms

Cowboy today, doing part of what makes him a wonderful horse.








​ 
A foreign exchange student wanted a chance to ride. She hadn't ridden in over 10 years. So we put my good saddle on Cowboy along with cage stirrups. Three of us went riding in the desert, with a friend and my wife walking along. The girl was nervous about trying to control a horse, so my wife led Cowboy. After about 45 minutes, the girl felt ready to try riding on her own. I put a circle over her face since I don't have her permission to post a picture of her. But Cowboy was careful and sensible while my wife was leading, and just as careful and sensible while she was not. Walked, trotted briefly, and didn't do any wrong at all. 

If I had to trust my life to one horse, it would be Cowboy. He can be a handful at times, but he seems to always come through in a pinch. The former lesson horse knows full well when someone is new to riding, and he once again kept everything calm and sane for the new rider!

She did get in a short section of riding in a wash, and one brief episode of going across desert.

I don't know if she'll have any interest in riding again, but at least stocky little Cowboy gave her a taste of riding. A calm, sensible, good-hearted pony taste. He can have a lot of attitude, but he also seems to know when to stow it...


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## bsms

Ordered "_Fundamentals of Flatwork_" by Bernie Traurig. Amazon had the three DVDs for $45. I think I'm the sort who needs to read or watch something multiple times over months, and my goal doesn't include jumping. I suspect my initial response will be "_That's not me!_" - but there are books whose approach to riding 'isn't me', yet I've read many times and gotten a lot out of...over time.

I'm pretty argumentative by nature. But things will percolate inside me, and sometimes pop out a year later.


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## bsms

My son went riding with us today. He rode Mia twice in the arena about 4 years ago. He didn't ride again until a few weeks ago. This is his 4th time on a horse other than Mia. So no trotting - well, not much - today. No cantering, intentionally. It was a chance for him to ride and learn to work with Cowboy.

I think he did well, all things considered. Notably, he was so busy paying attention to Cowboy that he didn't notice the trampoline someone set up in the desert! It was Bandit's first time past there since someone put the trampoline there. He was curious, but not worried.

Near the end, Cowboy gets nervous about passing a piece of trash in the wash, until Trooper shows him it is OK. For someone on his 4th ride in the last 4 years, my son did fine. He said at the start that the horse was going to do all the work. At the end, he was sweating. Said he had no idea it was so much work riding a horse...


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## bsms

Part 2. At the 20 second mark, Bandit thinks about leaving the wash. I decide to follow his suggestion, but we end up with too much cactus and too little space. At the 2 minute mark, Bandit looks carefully at where we need to go and cautiously drops back in the wash, placing each foot deliberately. Cowboy feels no need to look. He is less cautious and more experienced than Bandit.

At the end, Trooper (whose reins are on the saddle while my DIL films) decided to canter. Then Cowboy decided HE needs to speed up. Bandit hears the commotion and turns around to take charge, if need be - but neither Cowboy nor Trooper REALLY want to canter anywhere stupidly, so they stop.






Bandit remains a careful horse. That is OK. Humans give medals to brave people. Horses would give medals to careful horses. But it took a long time for Bandit to feel comfortable and relaxed doing this sort of thing. Now that he does it relaxed, we can start adding more to the ride. 

When my son isn't along. He had fun with Cowboy today, which is all a beginning rider needs. For his part, Cowboy is an awesome confidence builder. Unless Trooper starts cantering behind him...:shrug:

But learning to deal with that, on a horse who won't go nuts, is important. I had to learn on Mia...

And at end of ride, we found Trooper had poked his leg with cactus somewhere along the ride. It had bled and dripped on to his hoof, although it had closed by the time we got back. My DIL had no idea when it happened. Trooper isn't the sort to fuss over that. His time herding sheep taught him about keeping going and not complaining. He got some antibiotics put on it, and all the horses get tomorrow off.

PS - This is my short stirrup position. It works fine on the trail, and gives me the option of standing in the stirrups, rump entirely off the saddle. Also, while Cowboy is in a curb bit, the reins are attached at the mouthpiece.


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## egrogan

:think:

Random trampoline in the middle of the desert? And I thought there were weird discarded things on the side of the road where I ride! Huh.

Horses are awesome though. I love that they just go right by. What would they do if there were a bunch of kids jumping on it?! :wink:


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## bsms

The one time Trooper saw kids jumping on a trampoline, the trampoline was hidden behind a fence. All Trooper could see was squealing kids being thrown high into the air! He stopped. And for the next 20 minutes, he didn't move a single hoof as much as an inch!

I dismounted after 5 minutes. We OBVIOUSLY were not going anywhere. Finally, he sighed, looked at me in disbelief...and I led him home. He had enough for one day. That was about 5-6 years ago.

Judging from the beer bottles nearby, I think some of the neighborhood kids meet in the desert to drink, goof around - and leave the place TRASHED. I need to take the pickup there soon and clean it up. I'll leave the trampoline, I guess. For now. I wouldn't mind except they feel no need to clean up after themselves.


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## egrogan

Having packed out nearly a case of old Milwaukee's Best and Bud Light earlier today, I sympathize. Leaving broken glass around is just tacky...

(ETA: Not mine! I nearly rode right over broken bottles on the trail this afternoon. I am a beer girl through and through, but craft beer please...and I clean up after myself!)

The Trooper story is priceless. If horses could talk!


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## bsms

Something I wanted to point out because it has become a big part of getting past my fear of riding...

In the second video, at 2:03, Bandit pauses before re-entering the wash. I didn't stop him. In a spot like that, he likes to pause. Look. Smell. Listen. Just for a few seconds. THEN he'll move.

That is what I mean when I say "_He accepts responsibility..._" He knows what I want, but he also knows that if he doesn't like something, I'll let him back out. So...he pauses. Looks. Smells. Listens. He knows my eyesight is good, but I have no nose worth the name and my hearing is pathetic. And of course, you cannot blame a human for lacking "horse sense"! From 2:04 to 2:08, we don't move.

When he is ready, then WE proceed. Once he has done that, I've NEVER seen him act nervous or scared. If something starts to go wrong, he'll listen to me or he'll make a reasonable attempt to handle it.

By letting him take part in decisions, by listening to him and allowing him to say "_No_", I've gained a horse who can carry out something with a lot of determination. _When he agrees to what I want, WE are pretty safe_. Cowboy will do the same thing. Trooper will not. He'll just go where you point, which may be why Bandit has a low opinion of his judgment.


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## bsms

Just tried Bandit in two types of sidepulls. Details later, but...he wasn't BETTER in either of them than in his solid curb, and he was noticeably WORSE in the rope one. Not worse as in "uncontrollable", but worse in the sense of more tense, less eager and unhappy.

He did better in the sheepskin lined jumping cavesson. It was easier to adjust, very soft on his face, and he may have been about 90% in it compared to 100% in the curb. He only got about 10 minutes in it, and we were riding at sunset, and his feet were trimmed today...so it deserves further testing. No problems with control, but he wasn't as forward in it. But that could be the setting sun and having his feet done earlier. Or just 

"*What is this hairy thing on my nose?*"...









​I guess it could be the lack of color coordination, but that REALLY isn't the sort of thing he would worry about.​


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## bsms

Got "_Fundamentals of Flatwork_" by Bernie Traurig today. Watched PART of the first video. Liked it.

It assumes the rider has decent knowledge of riding and position. The focus is on training THE HORSE, not the rider. Some of it is stuff I have done with Mia and now with Bandit, but it also gives some ideas of things I could work on. I stopped part way thru the video because I need to think more about the initial segments. These gave me ideas for some things Bandit and I can do in the arena. A lot of it, not surprisingly, is like a video version of VS Lattimer's book Schooling Your Horse. But it IS nice to watch someone discuss and show things, using green horses who are starting their training.

While my end goal will be quite different, the first DVD at least could be helpful to a lot of backyard western riders like myself. There is plenty of emphasis, at least at this stage, on letting the horse use his head and trying to gain the horse's understanding. 

Even if the first DVD ends up being all I use, I figure it this way: A private lesson by a typical instructor around here would run $40/hour, and frankly the level of instruction would be much lower. Take $45 for the three DVDs, and another $10-15 for a copy of Littauer's book, and for $60 I have things I can work on with Bandit for the next few months.

I suppose there is something to be said for "eyes on", but only if those eyes are found in someone worth listening to - which isn't easy to find where I live. There is also something to be said for this:



> This example should bring home to the reader the importance of taking note of what may seem trivial and not leaving it to the instructor to discover all the problems. Feeling will only be learned by the person who uses his brain and interprets what he feels.
> 
> Applying this, the rider himself is the best judge of whether he has learned to 'go with the horse's movements', for he should feel himself bumping about in the saddle and can form a judgment as to whether he can remedy it...
> 
> ...If a rider has to ask other people if his leg position is a good one, he has no 'feel'. It is necessary that this self-judgment be cultivated, for only the rider knows whether his leg position is comfortable, if his stirrup leathers are the right length, if he is able to keep his stirrups and if he is keeping in light but constant contact with the horse's body..." - Riding Logic, Wilhelm Museler, pgs 31 & 39


One learns listening BY listening, and there is something to be said for learning to listen when no one else is interrupting. _Horse & Rider, discussing riding_.

I consider it $45 well spent. Not entirely sure my wife would agree, but it's my HOBBY, blast it! This interests me a LOT more than any vacation we'll ever take. Besides..."_I don't smoke, drink or chew, or go with girls who do_"...so think of all the money I save on booze and cigarettes!


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## bsms

From yesterday, posted on the over-50 thread:



bsms said:


> Rode with Bandit & Trooper & my DIL in an area of state land we hadn't been on in several years. Remember why, now. LOTS of rocks. Enough that I dismounted Bandit a half-dozen times to protect his feet. He's about 850 lbs, so 210 lbs/foot. My 170 lbs increases that to over 250 lbs/foot. When it gets rocky, he needs me to dismount. He also needs to learn to take little steps. We can walk fast later, silly!
> 
> He was on full alert, though, and I had a flashback to riding Mia. Had my stomach tied in knots for a couple of miles. Not Bandit's fault. I just have spent too much time on top of a scared horse. Is it anything like PTSD? Odd that I could have been shot at multiple times in combat and not worry, but riding a horse can sometimes tie me up in knots inside. Can't say it is much fun riding like that, but it went away eventually.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> My DIL barely breaks 100 lbs, so she stayed on Trooper - who is also about 50 lbs heavier than Bandit. But even Trooper started looking for excuses to rest his feet:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> Still, this isn't a bad sight:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> The little Abetta is leaving OK sweat marks, and feels good when I get nervous. Two hours of riding. Well, of riding, dismounting, walking, mounting, riding, dismounting, etc, etc.
> 
> Near the end, I asked Bandit for a canter on the only stretch I know of where we can canter 1/4 mile safely. He did so willingly but not stupidly. When I said "Easy...", we went from canter to walk in about two strides. :grin:
> 
> PS - Bandit grabbing a bite while DIL remained on Trooper:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​


Bandit acted tender today, so he may have some bruising. I got to thinking about a post @*gottatrot* made (IIRC) on another thread, about how maybe the abrasive dirt and rock is wearing Bandit's soles too thin. Looking at his feet before heading out today (we stayed close to home, my wife was riding for the first time in a while), his soles DO seem like they have been sanded down.

I have a nearly full thing of Durasole. I'm going to try using it. Not to make his sole hard and impenetrable to rocks - I know Durasole doesn't do that - but to try to slow the wear on the soles. Maybe if it toughens, his sole will get thicker.

We've also put that route on the "Not again" list. There were also places where you had to drop in and climb immediately back out of a little wash, but with very uneven, hard and slick sides. Bandit slid sideways a little just trying to go forward into a wash. Only about a 4' drop. With level terrain beyond, no trouble. But with an immediate climb back out, and too much brush to work around to the sides...he went slow (Good boy!) and then his feet shifted sideways. Only a couple of feet, but SIDEWAYS slips scare me.

Besides...the horses were NOT having fun out there. Heck, they can act happy trotting down a paved road in a neighborhood. Why insist they walk along a track working hard and unhappy? Fun is having fun WITH the horses.

And I think my DIL insulted me. There were a couple of spots I had to lie flat on Bandit to get under a branch. She said Trooper was an inch shorter, and she knew if Bandit and I could get through then she & Trooper would have no problem at all. That's what I get for riding with someone 60+ lbs lighter than me. :rofl:








​ 
Tack note: A mullen eggbutt snaffle I ordered arrived. I was disappointed to realize it is just as thick and heavy as the "Billy Allen snaffle" I already own. But I'll try it soon. Bandit actually got ****y today in the solid shank curb. My wife had dismounted to check Cowboy's feet, and Bandit was not in the mood to wait around - or to do figure 8s, etc. We had a very heated discussion about trail etiquette. I won, to the extent one can win such a discussion. And 10 minutes later, when we got home, Bandit acted like it was all past and forgotten.

Not saying it would have been any more fun or any calmer using a snaffle, but I would at least know exactly how much pressure I was applying. I think he'll slow just fine in the mullen. I think we are now doing enough cantering and trotting in the open to keep it from being mind-blowing.

And I used Mia's leather saddle today. I like the Abetta much better than I used to, and might like it more if I get fenders which allow better adjustment to stirrup length. But with sheepskin, the big leather saddle works fine too. Without it...well, I'd never recommend a slick leather, slick seat saddle to anyone whose horse sometimes engages in heated discussions...:cheers:

PS - Bandit is still a good boy. I'm not sure I want a horse who never tells me the most direct route to Hades. And he doesn't hold grudges.


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## bsms

A one minute video of cactus dodging. We're experimenting with things like helmet mounts, etc. And I found out yesterday that VLC video player also allows you to "record" any portion of a longer mp4 video. Thus this was cut from a boring 12 minute video...not that it is very exciting to watch. It is more interesting to DO, since one:

A - MUST trust your horse!

B - MUST keep an eye out for "pop-up" cactus, like the small Teddy Bear Cholla that appears on the right side at around 50 seconds. A horse who brushes against it - and Bandit came darn close - would probably become intensely unhappy, and proceed to make his rider intensely unhappy.

C - If in the lead, must also be looking ahead for paths that won't dead-end in a 4' drop off, or have the way barred by an impenetrable mass of vegetation.

It is mental effort, but it also gives the horses a good workout at twisting & turning, in a way they fully understand. Bandit firmly believes that he, and he alone - with a little advice from his rider - can bring his herd through safely. He obviously felt good about himself when we continued past the end of the video, dropping briefly into a wash, then climbing out, then crossing more open ground before returning to the trail. A horse who feels good about himself is a horse who enjoys going out and being ridden.

And...we're only about 1/4 mile from the nearest house. Not exactly deep in the wilderness! But it FELT "Old West" when doing it...


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## gottatrot

Great video. 

In case anyone is searching for an easy video editor, I downloaded about six including some rather complicated ones. In the process, gave my computer a virus, which was not fun to eradicate.

Anyway, the one I like the best is Windows Movie Maker. It's free and super easy to use. What I like about it is that you can add multiple videos to a timeline, then it allows you to create unlimited cut points so you can delete out even a few seconds by making a cut on each end and deleting the clip. You can also easily add audio, text, and it's not really "pro" or anything but it's fun. The little clips you cut into the video can also be set to run in slow or fast motion. 
Once you save your video, it's easy to upload it to Youtube.

This is the link I used and it did not give me a virus or any problems. Normally I use Cnet to download safely, but this one is not on there.
https://www.winmoviemaker.com/


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## waresbear

Wow, that is a lot of different types of cactus, or cacti? Totally different world than mine. Keep on riding sir.


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## Dragoon

I am horrified by how dangerous that looks! I know I'd be sticking to that nice, wide, dirt road. 

Something tells me you must also enjoy 1000 piece jigsaw puzzles...
Kudos to your and your horses' bravery!
D.


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## Chevaux

Good video, bsms -- keep them coming.

Is this land (where you were riding) government owned land?


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## bsms

It is privately owned land. The owner is a real estate investor in California. I doubt he has ever seen it. It is used mostly by ATVs. 

State land is a few hundred yards away. State and federal land then goes for many miles, but there isn't any surface water most of the year. The state land is often VERY rocky, but I want to explore a small trail I saw the other day branching off from the ATV trail.

The ATV trails are all pounded hard as concrete, only with rock on top. The horses genuinely prefer going off-trail, where it is rocky but the ground has some give to it. It is just going off trail is very slow and one sometimes has to turn back and try a different route. In places, the cactus is impenetrable.

This was taken on state land about 1/2 mile away. There really isn't any way to take a horse anywhere off of this trail:


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## bsms

Not a fun day's ride with Bandit today. All in the arena, but he started fussy and got worse. I tried to film it, but I was using a chest strap and I mostly got mane & neck. It cut off after he gave me a choppy, annoyed canter. After the camera quit, he tried bucking at a canter, which I ignored. So he tried it again, and I tried to slice his head in two using the bit. He didn't try it again.

NOT the way I like to ride. I don't try to boss Bandit around. But I will NOT let HIM boss ME around, either! I was looking for a relaxed 20-30 minutes. The fight was on his side, not mine.

After the second bucking episode, I started lining him up to canter straight down the middle of our little arena - only 120' long maximum. Then we'd slow, turn, he'd trot ****ed off back to the starting point, and we repeated. After about 8 runs, he started to settle. So we tried doing a couple laps. When he gave me two controlled, decent, balanced,unbraced canters...we quit for the day.

I wish I could claim Bandit & I always rode in synch, but the truth is we have some very good days, lots of average ones, and some where it's a fight. I believe in mutually acceptable compromises, but there are days when Bandit isn't interested in a compromise. When that happens, I need to give him a reason to compromise in the future - ie, make it clear that attempts to boss me will get his butt kicked.

Oddly enough, Mia was a sweeter, more willing horse. She could lose her mind, but she rarely started a fight. She ended a few, which is how I learned about making compromises. But she rarely initiated them. I've racked my brain, but I think Bandit was 99% at fault for the argument today. And while my shoulders are sore, I don't think he'll be interested in an argument tomorrow.

Of course, on the plus side, Bandit is a saner horse...

PS: Told my youngest to clean the corral and feed the horses. "_Will I get gas money for it?_", she asked. "_No_", I said, "_but I'll let you eat tomorrow for FREE!_" She said "_Oh well._.." and went to care for the horses.


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## DraftyAiresMum

bsms said:


> Not a fun day's ride with Bandit today. All in the arena, but he started fussy and got worse. I tried to film it, but I was using a chest strap and I mostly got mane & neck. It cut off after he gave me a choppy, annoyed canter. After the camera quit, he tried bucking at a canter, which I ignored*. So he tried it again, and I tried to slice his head in two using the bit.* He didn't try it again.
> 
> NOT the way I like to ride. I don't try to boss Bandit around. But I will NOT let HIM boss ME around, either! I was looking for a relaxed 20-30 minutes. The fight was on his side, not mine.
> 
> After the second bucking episode, I started lining him up to canter straight down the middle of our little arena - only 120' long maximum. Then we'd slow, turn, he'd trot ****ed off back to the starting point, and we repeated. After about 8 runs, he started to settle. So we tried doing a couple laps. When he gave me two controlled, decent, balanced,unbraced canters...we quit for the day.
> 
> I wish I could claim Bandit & I always rode in synch, but the truth is we have some very good days, lots of average ones, and some where it's a fight. I believe in mutually acceptable compromises, but there are days when Bandit isn't interested in a compromise. When that happens, I need to give him a reason to compromise in the future - ie, make it clear that attempts to boss me will get his butt kicked.
> 
> Oddly enough, Mia was a sweeter, more willing horse. She could lose her mind, but she rarely started a fight. She ended a few, which is how I learned about making compromises. But she rarely initiated them. I've racked my brain, but I think Bandit was 99% at fault for the argument today. And while my shoulders are sore, I don't think he'll be interested in an argument tomorrow.
> 
> Of course, on the plus side, Bandit is a saner horse...
> 
> PS: Told my youngest to clean the corral and feed the horses. "_Will I get gas money for it?_", she asked. "_No_", I said, "_but I'll let you eat tomorrow for FREE!_" She said "_Oh well._.." and went to care for the horses.


I really hope that the part I bolded was hyperbole on your part. For all your preaching against contact, that one sentence, if true, has the potential to do more damage than years of riding with contact, a la dressage. The "argument" may have been on Bandit's side, but you ignoring the buck the first time was directly contributory to him thinking he could do it again and get away with it. Basically, you ignoring that first buck set Bandit up for failure by making him think that if you didn't "answer" his complaint (the buck) the first time, he needed to tell you again that he didn't like something (whether it was something you were doing or that he was uncomfortable). Surely in all the reading and theory you've studied over the years, you've heard (if not learned) that part of your job as a rider (and by dent, a trainer of the horse you are riding) is to listen to your horse and to set them up for success whenever possible. Trying to "saw his face in half with the bit" is neither listening to him nor setting him up for success. It's reactive and petty, at best. I must say that, regardless of the light you sometimes paint Bandit in, he sure seems like a saint of a horse.


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## updownrider

> Not a fun day's ride with Bandit today. All in the arena, but he started fussy and got worse. I tried to film it, but I was using a chest strap and I mostly got mane & neck. It cut off after he gave me a choppy, annoyed canter. After the camera quit, he tried bucking at a canter, which I ignored. So he tried it again, and I tried to slice his head in two using the bit. He didn't try it again.
> 
> NOT the way I like to ride. I don't try to boss Bandit around. But I will NOT let HIM boss ME around, either! I was looking for a relaxed 20-30 minutes. The fight was on his side, not mine.


After reading almost every post you have made on this board, I think the perfect storm was created today. Bandit was fussy. Horses get fussy just like people have their days that aren't their best. Because of that, probably without even noticing it, you were riding more defensively than you usually do in your arena. That is something you self-admittedly do. No one blames you for that, after all, you are a self-taught rider that rode a mare for many years that had her moments. Once you tensed up Bandit picked up on it. My first comment in this thread was for you let go when you pick up the canter or else you will catch Bandit in the mouth. But because you were tense, you were unable to allow your elbows to follow Bandit's mouth as much as you should have. You made him fussier. Then you were also concentrating on a camera that is strapped to your chest! You had a distraction. Honestly, I would have bucked, too.

So, no, he was not bossing you around. He was expressing something was not right and you did not read him correctly. You were fighting him, and he did not deserve to have his 'head sliced in two using the bit'. It is absolutely not my place to say this, but I will anyway, I am disappointed.


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## Whinnie

I believe you could use the services of a good instructor who can coach you on how to work through a horse's resistance and lack of focus without punishing. It isn't that hard, it just takes patience and a willingness to keep working. Sometimes I have a similar issue with my mare, but ALWAYS I can get her relaxed and listening using the tools given to me by my instructor. I have never jerked, hit or otherwise physically punished her. Horses get distracted. Or they feel the rider's tension and react to it, even when the rider does not realize he is being tense or unbalanced. Please find an instructor to help you sort this out.


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## bsms

*Oh Good Grief!*​ 
Let me see...*did I literally try to rip his head into two pieces? Probably not. In any case, his head remained intact.*

And no, that has NOTHING to do with "constant contact". That was raising his head in mid-buck, with enough force to MAKE his head come up, so he would stop bucking AND get the idea that it was not profitable!

When using contact - NOT constant contact - you use what it takes to accomplish the job. I've pulled harder on a Tom Thumb bit getting Bandit to raise his head from eating grass than I did yesterday or EVER from a saddle. And did he thrash his head in pain? Nope. Just raised it. Like he did yesterday!

It did not "undo" SQUAT! It isn't as though Bandit has never bucked before. He once put a lifelong rider - all 6'3" of him - on the wrong side of the saddle horn. Doesn't have anything to do with how he behaves 5 minutes later. I don' think he has tried a buck in 6 months, so the intervals are getting longer.

In normal western riding, contact is used long enough to get the needed effect, then stopped.

"_Basically, you ignoring that first buck set Bandit up for failure by making him think that if you didn't "answer" his complaint (the buck) the first time, he needed to tell you again that he didn't like something...It's reactive and petty, at best._"

No. Bandit and I have two plus years together. Mostly, if one ignores a buck, he'll stop doing it anyway. I'd rather ignore than punish. But when he repeated...I made it clear that if HE wanted a fight, he would get one. And I guess he didn't, since he didn't buck again. Nor did I "saw" anything!



> "Admire the horse for the good things he does and just kinda ignore the wrong things. First thing you know, the good things will get better and the bad things will get less." - Ray Hunt


"_My first comment in this thread was for you let go when you pick up the canter or else you will catch Bandit in the mouth. But because you were tense, you were unable to allow your elbows to follow Bandit's mouth as much as you should have. You made him fussier._"

No. I was there. Bandit and I have done this a ton of times. *In fact, the first half of that ride was done BITLESS*, using a jumping caveson! Pretty darn hard to catch a horse in the mouth WHEN THERE WASN'T ANYTHING IN THE MOUTH! Nor was I tense.

Every once in a while, Bandit wants to take over. One cannot make "mutually acceptable compromises" with a horse who isn't interested in compromise. Once in a while - maybe every few months with Bandit, and maybe twice a year with Mia, one needs to make it clear you are formidable enough that compromising with you is a good idea.

That is who Bandit is. He was that way before, according to his previous owner. And I'm certain he ALWAYS will have that in him.

"_So, no, he was not bossing you around. He was expressing something was not right and you did not read him correctly. You were fighting him, and he did not deserve to have his 'head sliced in two using the bit'. It is absolutely not my place to say this, but I will anyway, I am disappointed._"

Oh well. When you are on a bucking horse, you can give him all the rein you want. When I am on one, if he doesn't stop it pretty quick, his head IS coming up. And yes, after 28 months of regularly riding Bandit, I know his moods. I did not start the fight. Not bitless, and not bitted. 

Sometimes it IS my screw up. But NOT ALWAYS! And after nearly 10 years of riding, I know better. Frankly, @*DraftyAiresMum* , @*updownrider* , and @*Whinnie* ...I don't think for a moment that any of you would have done better, or even as well. Why? Because I've had 28 months of regularly riding to learn who Bandit is, and you have never even seen him!

It always amazes me that folks on the Internet feel they know more about a horse than someone who has lived with that horse for years. I've had people tell me Bandit did NOT weigh just 800 lbs when he arrived. Why? Because they saw his pictures. Oh golly. So the horse-only vet who measured him and estimated his weight was wrong, and someone looking at a picture the size of a hand knows more. Not buying it.

And I'm not buying the idea that people who have never laid eyes on Bandit know more about him than I do after my 28 months of regular riding with him.

"_He was expressing something was not right and you did not read him correctly._" - @*updownrider* 

*This chaps my butt!* 

I did not read him correctly, after 28 months of riding, and after riding him both bitless and bitted yesterday, but YOU can read him correctly without even being there - or EVER having been there! You have never seen him, touched him, gotten on him, led him, ridden him ANYWHERE...but you know how to "read him" by reading 7 sentences on the Internet - sentences that I wrote!

*Amazing!*​ 
---------------------

Now...back to my regular abuse of my saintly horse:

This is a combined video, something I just barely figured out today. Used YouTube Movie Maker because the MS Movie Maker gave me a combined black screen. May or may not keep using this software. YouTube wants me to pay them $30 to do anything but the basics.

Anyways, I thought my wife & I would go for a ride, but my DIL & son both wanted to - so my wife, being the mother she is, let them do the riding. It was my son's 7th time on a horse.

In the first 1:30, Bandit balked. Why? He was starting to get used to the trampoline in the desert, but sometime in the last 2 days the trampoline was torn up, broken, and the shredded remains were blowing in the wind. At around 5 seconds in, he nearly screwed us both. Got himself together, and my feeling was that I could get him to move down the slope and past the damaged trampoline.

But Trooper was there, and starting in June Bandit FINALLY decided Trooper hadn't survived by luck. That Trooper actually KNOWS something. And MIGHT be worth listening to. Sometimes. So we waited, and Trooper being Trooper, he strolled on by - and my DIL caught Bandit deciding it was OK to continue. It only took Bandit 2 years to decide another horse might know something.

In the second half of the video, my son is getting some lessons in trotting. Cowboy is teaching. My son wouldn't listen to anything I said anyways, and there is something to be said for just trying and finding out. The "Highways of the Desert" aren't SAFE to fall on. Plenty of rocks in the area. But they are smooth enough for the horses, and the sand keeps them out of racing mode. And there are not many spines in the wash, which beats a lot of places!

My son and DIL watched the video afterward - all of it, until the camera died - on TV, and laughed and talked about riding. They both work. Their schedules often overlap. So seeing them together, laughing and talking about horses, was a good feeling. *It made my wife much happier than riding today would have done!*

And by the end of the ride, I sometimes heard, "_Coming thru! Don't worry! I asked him for this_!" Then he and Cowboy would slide past us, annoying Bandit a little but not too much. And he is eager to go riding again. On Cowboy. He says Cowboy adjusts any time my son's balance gets off, to include stopping if need be. Not bad for a free pony!


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## updownrider

Easy there, bsms. My post was meant to be helpful, so please do not rip my head in two pieces. I have been supportive of you in the past, and going by how you 'liked' my posts and responded positively, I believed my support was appreciated. 

Do not lump me in with other independent posters. Take the time to read what each of us said and realize what we said at different times throughout the day was not necessarily the same and should have been addressed individually and appropriately. 

I thought you probably handled the incident incorrectly and that you took it out on your horse and gave suggestions for improvement. I also said it was not my place, but I was disappointed that you, in your words, ripped your horse's mouth. You have discussed your temper in the past, even once throwing a rock at Mia when you were mad at her. I read your post and reacted as a horse lover and longtime respected horsewoman. When I said in my first post in this journal to let go of Bandit that is at the upward transition, "When he picks up the canter, let him canter" were my words. If Bandit was so fussy, so disobedient, so likely to buck today...why did you canter? 

Do not tell me you can sit a buck better than me and it is ok to rip at your horse's mouth. I can ride a horse's buck as well as anyone and I have never done anything after it is over but to let it go and finish my ride. Anger and horses do not work. 

I am sorry if your feelings are hurt, but I was advocating for Bandit in my post.


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## bsms

Fair enough, @*updownrider* . Please accept my apology for my reaction. I had a lot of fun on Bandit today. He did a great job of monitoring the horses behind us. If he felt we were getting further out front that he knows I like, he'd stop and turn his head, encouraging me to twist my body, look back, and see that he was right.

Although he has an odd racing background, and doesn't like to be passed, he accepted it with good grace.

And as we went along a steep bank, he suddenly became concerned. He twisted his head to stare, then move a little further from the bank and then jogged lightly by. As we went by, I saw a hole in the bank, about 4-5 feet up, and heard something moving inside. Rabbit? Rattlesnake? Gopher? I don't know, but I was happy BANDIT was staying aware and taking appropriate action.

He balked once, but going from intact trampoline to busted up trampoline is legitimately concerning to a cautious lead horse. And I think he would have continued on if urged, after 5 seconds of looking. But since I had the option of letting Trooper take the lead, and since Bandit is now willing to follow Trooper's lead - why not?

My DIL was all smiles. My son was laughing. When we got back, Cowboy strode over to where we untack. My son asked him to turn around. He did...and then turned again, and went back to the untacking spot, and planted his feet. My son laughed hard and said he figured Cowboy had earned his keep today, so he dismounted and rubbed Cowboy.

I got a video done - combining two of them, the first time I've managed to do that - and then found out I suck, I'm cruel, ruining Bandit, etc. All based off a few sentence I wrote about yesterday afternoon's ride. *It was like getting punched in the gut, and for what?* Because Bandit is - as I've written many times here before - as incapable of holding a grudge as I am. It is what makes him a much easier ride than Mia: He can get upset, and then be calm a few minutes later. We can even have a bad ride, have everything just be miserable, finish on a bad note - and the next day is a new day.

As for me, I can get ****ed. The time I threw a rock hard at Mia was recounted here:


> I pulled myself upright in time to see Mia fall flat on her side at a full gallop. She got up and galloped to the far side of the corral. I limped over again, and she started dancing around before I even got there, threatening to bolt. I was a bit perturbed by this point. "What Would Clinton Anderson Do?", I asked. Then I decided CA could go copulate. I picked up a rock about half again bigger than my fist, and chucked it at Mia. Caught her on her rump, and she took off again. I met her back at the point we had parted ways after I tried to shove the saddle upright, and she stopped next to me and hung her head. At least THAT was better! I would have asked, "What Would Parelli Do?", but I didn't have a carrot stick to shove up her nether regions.
> 
> http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding/my-first-emergency-dismount-mia-while-377705/#post4940497


I won't swear all of that is entirely literal. Mark Twain said you should never ruin a story with too much truth, and that works for me. Poetic license. But yeah...I chucked a rock at her, and she responded by running TO me. And waiting for me to make things better.

Now, a few other points, hopefully written without rancor:

"_When I said in my first post in this journal to let go of Bandit that is at the upward transition, "When he picks up the canter, let him canter" were my words._"

Well...given that he canters at a verbal cue, typically a kiss, and often enough by just leaning forward, I'd have to conclude he is not afraid of my hurting his mouth at the start. And since his fussiness started bitless, it seems obvious to me that too much bit wasn't the problem. 

But then, that comes from having ridden him yesterday, and having been there the entire time, and not relying on a few paragraphs that can be read in 60 seconds or less.

I used more bit with him today than I would like, at times. When he gets "concerned", taking the slack out - at a walk, or trot, or canter - seems to help him deal with things. When he relaxes, he gets more slack. But that comes from having lived with him. When I got him, taking the slack out - even before you got it all out - meant slam on the emergency brakes. It took time to get him used to the typical "sometimes contact" of normal western riding.

And unlike Mia, or Trooper, or Cowboy, he seems to LIKE it - but only when he is feeling concerned, or wants to know how fast to go. 

"_If Bandit was so fussy, so disobedient, so likely to buck today...why did you canter?_"

To the best of my memory, I don't think he has bucked since...April? Early May? And he generally LIKES cantering in the arena. He often prefers a slow canter on the trails to a trot. Not always, and I think it has to do with the footing as much as anything else. But when he dropped his head the first time, he caught me by surprise. And I was inclined to ignore it, because ignoring "not desired" things from Bandit often leads to them disappearing without further issue.

But the second time? No thanks, Bandit. His head was coming up, regardless of how much force it took. And how much did it take? About the same IIRC as it takes to lift his head when he is eating grass. By that time, I had already dismounted twice in the ride, checking the saddle, the bitless bridle, switching to his favorite bit, etc.

Was it the setting sun? Was it working while the other two horses watched? Don't know. Don't entirely care. There are acceptable ways he can communicate "_I'm not having fun today_". If we are in the arena, I normally end those rides in 10 minutes. Reluctant to go faster, acting bored, sighing - he can talk. And I will listen. But not when he tells me to go to Hades. Not unless there is a REASON for it, other than "I don't wanna".

"_Do not tell me you can sit a buck better than me and it is ok to rip at your horse's mouth._"

What I said was, "_...I don't think for a moment that any of you would have done better, or even as well. Why? Because I've had 28 months of regularly riding to learn who Bandit is, and you have never even seen him!_" - underlining added this time for emphasis.

Didn't say anything about your physical skills. But yes - I know Bandit and his personality and his behavior better than you do. Hardly a shocking statement. And I couldn't have been too far wrong and have Bandit & I both acting happy 15 hours later.

As for rip at a horse's mouth - when a horse puts his head down to buck, I'm lifting it. You do whatever you want. Both Harry Chamberlin and Tom Roberts would agree that there are TIMES when it is OK to "punish" a horse's mouth. Not often, and Bandit and I are currently running a couple of times a year. 

"_I have never done anything after it is over but to let it go and finish my ride_"

And just what do you think I did? Hmmm?

"_After the second bucking episode, I started lining him up to canter straight down the middle of our little arena - only 120' long maximum. Then we'd slow, turn, he'd trot ****ed off back to the starting point, and we repeated. After about 8 runs, he started to settle. So we tried doing a couple laps. When he gave me two controlled, decent, balanced,unbraced canters...we quit for the day._"

Rode him until he settled. When he settled, and we had a couple of nice, decent-effort canters, we called it quits.

And 15 hours later, went out and had a very fun ride. As I said yesterday:

"_I believe in mutually acceptable compromises, but there are days when Bandit isn't interested in a compromise. When that happens, I need to give him a reason to compromise in the future..._"

That future came 15 hours later. And it worked fine. We were back to riding together. But at some time in the future, Bandit WILL make it clear he is not in a compromising mood. When that happens, I won't compromise either. Not until he is ready to work with me again. I believe in give and take - not all give from him, and not all give from me. Compromise is something that happens when both sides are willing to give some to get something else. Not when one does all the giving.


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## bsms

In terms of contact...Using a solid shank curb bit, with a solid mouthpiece, rotating one side rotates the entire bit. That is why, in the picture below, the bit is rotated. Bandit turned to look, and that twist pulled the outside rein tight and rotated the bit. Clicking will enlarge the picture.








​ 
But notice, this is contact Bandit is giving Bandit. He wanted to look, so he turned his head while we went forward. And that took all the slack out, and rotated the bit, and Bandit didn't care in the least.

But then, we didn't maintain that contact for 90 minutes that day. Or any day.


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## Dragoon

That was an awesome video!
Cowboy is priceless, and your son did so well! He is learning to read the horse, and that is better than learning to pose in perfect riding postition. 

Now that you have more family members interested in riding, you need another horse. Go buy Mia back, then all of you can go ride. Perhaps she'll be a safer ride in a group setting...some horses are more secure that way and liable to keep their heads...

Is that someone's front yard in the above photo? I never knew cactus could be so beautiful, no wonder Bandit wanted a better look!


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> Oddly enough, Mia was a sweeter, more willing horse. She could lose her mind, but she rarely started a fight. She ended a few, which is how I learned about making compromises. But she rarely initiated them. I've racked my brain, but I think Bandit was 99% at fault for the argument today. And while my shoulders are sore, I don't think he'll be interested in an argument tomorrow.


I've not yet ridden a horse that was the same as another. It's interesting to me what makes one more difficult, or difficult in a different way. 

Amore was so very difficult for a very long time. But she did not ever want to fight. If you did the wrong thing, you would scare her and she'd stop thinking. But there was never anything aggressive, only self-preservation involved. Never any opportunity for strictness or punishment, because even if I gave in to my instincts and did it, that would just backfire. No matter what - bucking, bolting, etc. the only response you could have was calm, calm, soothe, soothe. Or get off or fall off.

I believe Halla is a lot like Bandit. If you ignore an undesirable behavior and keep riding, 95% of the time that is the best response. But 5% of the time she gets a wild hair and then she escalates until you push back and get more "big dog" than her. Then most of the time she'll settle to a tolerable level. A few times it took all the big dog I had to just get her down to the edge of crazy, and then we just cruised along there with me wondering if I was going to tip over the edge. What you call a "wild ride." 

Cowboy looks like a great ride...a big little horse.


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## bsms

My son says Cowboy is the only horse he wants to ride for now. He said he got a bit off balance today, and Cowboy ducked back under him. Cowboy is an ex-lesson horse. He knows how to take advantage. But he seems to like my son - all 5'2" of him! My son was enjoying riding, but he enjoyed it because of Cowboy. Hard to believe the little guy was free. Cowboy, I mean.

Halla sounds like Bandit times 10, @*gottatrot* . Similar, only much more so. What makes Bandit so much easier to ride than Mia are two things: Bandit calms fast, and Bandit never loses his mind. He did a couple of times when I first got him, but he has become VERY good at keeping track of what is around him. That is huge when things get tense. 

Halla would be interesting to ride here. I suspect she would respond more like Mia. It sounds like she would NEED to run and be frustrated in a place where a quarter mile run was as good as it gets. It would be interesting to know how Mia has responded to living in a place where she sometimes gets to roam on thousands of acres with other horses, in a genuine herd. My guess is that it would have helped her a lot. I miss her, but I also couldn't give her what I think she really needed. She would have been an awesome Oregon coast mare, though!

Well, if she ever admitted the ocean wasn't going to eat her!

OTOH, Bandit was moving his head around at a canter the other day in a way that reminded me of Halla (it is her, isn't it, not Amore?)...only about 1/10th as much. I started to correct him, then thought of Halla and let him do his thing for a little bit. After all, we don't get to canter far anyways and it wasn't like he was going to get lost. When we slowed, he acted as if nothing had happened, so maybe it was OK for him? For that time? Because he doesn't do that often.

Trooper, OTOH, is a point and go horse. And he likes to know what his rider expects so he can do it right the first time. But even if he liked me, I wouldn't want to ride him.



Dragoon said:


> ...Is that someone's front yard in the above photo? I never knew cactus could be so beautiful, no wonder Bandit wanted a better look!


That is a house about a mile from me that I didn't know existed. It is HUGE. I looked it up...think it is 6000 sq feet! Beautiful yard! Bandit looked, but he wasn't even slightly nervous. Not until we went another 300 yards, and he saw a horse wearing a fly mask! I'm guessing most Navajos don't use fly masks on their horses, and mine don't. When the horse trotted toward us, Bandit didn't know what to think! A horse with the head of a fly?

I think he was too shocked to be worried. Trooper realized it was a mare, and he wanted to get friendly. Bandit just hoped to survive the encounter! Of course...I've known a few girls who had that effect on me, too.

The Sonoran Desert isn't for everybody. I don't remember living in Scottsdale in 1961. But when we came out for a visit to Arizona in 1969, I felt like I was coming home. My DIL was born in the Philippines, but we talked outside for a while this evening, with a warm, dry breeze and the smell of the desert. She misses the beaches, but she also likes the desert.

I want to get Bandit started on riding in the evenings. During the summer, there is an hour after sunset where is it hot - but beautiful and comfortable. Temps at our elevation usually max out at 100-102 during the summer. Not bad, really. Once the sun goes down.


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## updownrider

Since we have moved on from your not fun ride with Bandit, I have to ask, what is "constant contact"? It is not a term I am not familiar with. I can't find the term in the FEI Dressage rules, or the USEF Dressage rules. Being more involved in show jumping it is not something a rider would do. Can you explain what you mean when you use it?


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## updownrider

updownrider said:


> It is not a term I am not familiar with.



Holy typo. 
This line should read: *It is a term I am not familiar with.* Take out that first not. It changed the whole meaning of the sentence.


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## bsms

updownrider said:


> Since we have moved on from your not fun ride with Bandit, I have to ask, what is "constant contact"? It is not a term I am not familiar with...Can you explain what you mean when you use it?


Sure. Think of Littauer's 3 levels of control. Elementary control meant riding with slack in the reins. Intermediate was riding with "soft contact", and Littauer gives very good descriptions of what he means in both Common Sense Horsemanship and Schooling Your Horse. Advanced is essentially High School. If you are thinking about "_Abstossen_", you are working in what Littauer would call advanced riding - and what I would call, instead, difficult riding. I don't view High Schooling as "advanced", but merely more specialized and more difficult to train.

I think "constant contact" is a better description than "soft contact". Does one ride primarily with slack in the reins, or primarily with a straight line from bit to hand to elbow? The former does not use "no contact". It may even use frequent contact. But the idea in traditional western riding is to only use contact when you are giving a cue.

If the reins are thought of as a telegraph line, does the operator rest his finger on the key, or only touch the key when sending a message?

Typically, a western horse will move toward riding with a curb bit & one hand. In that sense, "Elementary Control" might be considered riding with a snaffle and two hands, and "Intermediate Control" riding one hand using a curb.

Based on actual measurements of rein pressure, soft contact - the softest an experienced rider can maintain continually - runs 3-6 lbs. If there is slack in the reins - English levels of slack - then there is about 1-2 lbs of pressure. I don't know if draped reins have ever been measured, but I'd guess heavy leather reins draped would produce more pressure.

The pressure with slack reins tends to be more even because it is impossible for a rider to perfectly follow the horse's mouth, and a little slack won't create the spikes.

If you want to ride a horse fast, using one hand and a curb bit, you do NOT want to ride with constant contact. Take the 3-6 lbs of pressure an educated rider creates as a minimum, and them multiply it by the typical 3:1 ratio of a normal western curb bit. That would be 9-18 lbs of pressure all the time! The rider wouldn't feel it, but the horse would! And that 9-18 lbs of pressure would literally have no meaning. To send a message would require exceeding that background noise. But riding with slack gives 1-2 lbs of pressure as the background noise.

And it seems obvious to me that the less background noise one has - the quieter the room - the easier it is to have a quiet conversation.

The 8 lbs of pressure used to give a half-halt would become 24 lbs of pressure with a 3:1 curb. For a half-halt, although most western riders don't do a half-halt (using the dressage/FEI definitions).

Soft contact isn't really all that soft to begin with. Multiply it by 3 (or by 2 using my solid shank curb), and there would be nothing soft about it.

But that doesn't mean that I or anyone else using a bit rides with "No" contact. I joke about the bit's purpose being to hold the far end of the reins up, but one only uses a bit because one CAN put pressure inside the horse's mouth with it. Otherwise, we would all use sidepulls.

BTW - typically, I want to ride Bandit with just a little slack, but with the reins loose in my fingers. I want him free to pull the reins thru my hand any time he needs. I also want to be able to tighten my fingers and not need to pull my hand 18" to send a message.


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## updownrider

> I think "constant contact" is a better description than "soft contact".


Instead of using a long acknowledged term, you made up the term "constant contact"? 
Because no one rides with constant contact. Everyone has to let go at some point. 

As for lbs. of pressure, it changes by horse, movement, bit, leg pressure, many things. I do not know anyone that teaches how many lbs. should be kept during a training, coaching, schooling session. 

What riders strive for is "consistent contact".


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## bsms

What riders *CANNOT* provide is "consistent contact". Regardless of what they THINK they do, they cannot provide it. This is what happens:










Soft contact is not "soft". It is not "consistent". If you want soft and consistent, one needs to use slack. Regardless of what we THINK we do, no one who measures rein pressure says it happens. 

So...should we continue to ignore reality so we can substitute how we feel? Should we talk of "Take a feather / Add a feather" while ignoring the 5 lb dumbbell in our hand? Should we continue to talk of horses "rounding" their backs, although it doesn't happen? Should we discuss the Circle of Energy and cling to the idea that a horse working hard to lift his back and barely move forward is "advanced", while a free moving horse is unbalanced?

Fundamentally, should we let horses balance themselves and their riders, or try to teach the horse how to balance according to OUR ideas? And if the latter, what arrogance does it take to assume WE know more about a horse's balance than the horse, when the horse alone knows what he has to do to achieve our ideas of balance?

Again: Why is it we assume we know more about balance than the horse, when we ALL agree that in a difficult situation, we need to trust the horse? If one student knows how to do basic addition, and another can do calculus, why should the one who knows addition assume he is better at math than the one who can do calculus?

In addition: A western rider uses contact. He wants it to be soft, but he doesn't want it to be constant. So...does a western rider use "soft contact" per Littauer's description? No. How does it differ? Because it is occasional, not constant. The "soft contact" I desire is different from Littauer's "soft contact"? And how does it differ? My desired steady state is no contact unless I need to transmit, while Littauer wanted to keep his hand on the button even if he had nothing to say.

The difference between Littauer's description of soft contact and the soft contact I desire is how constant it is. Do I want my reins to be a straight line from bit to hand to elbow, or do I want to take the slack out only for specific reasons? Do I want my horse's mouth to live in a quiet room, or a noisy bar? What level of background noise is acceptable to me?

Thus "constant contact" versus "intermittent contact". I think it more accurately describes the difference. I want a quiet room, with very little "white noise" that my cues need to rise above.

-----------------------------------------------

All that said: If someone wants to use a different approach, that is their business. Not mine. But how I wish to ride IS my business, and my right to decide. I find riding with contact, even when one has nothing to say to the horse, incomprehensible. But then, I have zero interest in controlling my horse's every step. It wouldn't work, not when we are zig-zagging between the cactus.


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## updownrider

I have never told you how to ride. I have made suggestions. 

I do not ride by charts, and the tension of a first level sitting trot is irrelevant to me. I have studied the sport for over 50 years, ridden many different disciplines and hundreds of different horses. I can't feel that irrelevant chart but I can feel consistent contact with any rein length that is appropriate. Part of being consistent is being able to adjust. 

I do not know why you get so worked up about lbs. of contact when it is not specifically necessary for your style of riding and Bandit. He is perfect for your goals, riding on your terrain. Why try to fix something that is not broken? He is a very nice and beautiful horse, and you have a lovely family that you can enjoy and share him with. Everyone should be so lucky :loveshower:


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## bsms

updownrider said:


> ...I do not know why you get so worked up about lbs. of contact when it is not specifically necessary for your style of riding and Bandit. He is perfect for your goals, riding on your terrain. Why try to fix something that is not broken? He is a very nice and beautiful horse, and you have a lovely family that you can enjoy and share him with. Everyone should be so lucky :loveshower:


I agree. The journal is supposed to be sharing what I'm learning about Bandit and riding and my enjoyment (or set-backs). To be honest, I feel like it has turned in to my needing to justify how I ride Bandit and why I don't take lessons, etc.

In the interests of being honest, and since I believe some of the folks posting are very sincere and well-intentioned in their comments, I've tried to explain why I came to certain conclusions. But it really isn't why I keep a journal.

The journal is to help me see trends over time. On any given day, or week, I might get set 3 steps back. But it helps to remember where Bandit and I have both come from, and to see how his feet have improved, his bracing is much reduced, how he has stopped spinning and trying to run away, or take off across peoples yards.

It is a chance to share an unusual environment that I love. My wife & I spent an hour this morning watching some big buzzards and a hawk working back and forth overhead. I once had one of the big vultures swoop down and miss Cowboy & I by about 5 feet - and Cowboy barely flinched!

Moseying across the desert countryside is also an unusual goal in riding.

So is simplified riding - trying to answer how a person who has ridden 3 times in the last 10 years can go riding safely in the desert. And a big part of the answer is obviously in having horses with good sense and good feelings about humans. A horse like Cowboy, who moved back under my son when he got off balance, and prevented a fall.

I'll use the videos by Bernie Traurig and other comments to spur my thinking, and to see if there are different approaches that might work well for us. The Forward Seat was my first love. But it is also predicated on the horse learning to move forward with confidence...and too many where I live teach horses to move forward or else! All three of my horses have experience with that approach to riding, and I suspect we all agree there are better ways. 

But my main pleasure in riding Bandit, as it was with Mia, is just interacting with the horse. Learning to read them, find ways of making them feel confident, trying to find ways to make riding enjoyable for them, so that they will WANT to go ride with me.

And that is a very individual rider / individual horse sort of thing. What worked with Mia has helped with Bandit, but I've had to backtrack and drop some ideas and try new ones - because Bandit is NOT Mia. And Cowboy is not Bandit, although he remains my family's favorite horse. All 13 hands of him. The combination of good sense, excellent balance, a willingness to tell his rider to go to Hades...but to also work hard for a rider who gives him something back, all wrapped up in a free horse they spent 3 months trying to give away before they thought to call me.

There are a number of horse sports, western and English, I can't bear to watch. So I don't. And I don't go try to tell someone who loves those sports they are wrong.

If asked, I will explain why I've come to the conclusions I have. But I'd rather have it focus on what Bandit and I are doing, and what my family is learning. I'd rather share what I enjoy about horses than worry about someone who prefers something else. Their horse. Their sport. Their business. Not mine.

Maybe I've changed over the years. Maybe spending time with horses has changed me. But I'd rather focus on why riding is fun than the negatives. *If that is a change, then perhaps horses are changing me for the better?*


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## bsms

"_Anyone who watches the video might think I have a double standard, since I've talked so much about bit contact yet it might appear I am riding with contact on this green horse...My hold on the reins is such that if he moves his head in any direction, the reins slip right through._" - @*gottatrot* 

Bandit was started in a bosal, and probably by one that wasn't...optimal? He has white hairs all over his face. The snaffle was added as an emergency brake. Thus when he arrived, there was no such thing as "contact". Before the slack was out, he'd slam on the brakes.

Just thinking out loud, but the bad day Bandit & I had a few days back started with me trying to use the jumping cavesson without the sheepskin cover I had used earlier. Might it have reminded him of the bosal he used to use, and bothered him? Looked gentle to me, but maybe it reminded him of his racing days?

In any case, the first step was to get him used to contact. He was far too excitable to ride bitless, and I cannot use a bit if I can't touch it! But where I differed (and most western riding differs, as I understand it) was that my goal was to establish contact and basic cues, so that I could move him to riding without continual contact. But first he needed to trust me with his mouth, and then he needed to understand basic cues could be given in his mouth - including that it was OK to slow, or turn, and that there was no need to stop.

When he isn't excited, I like to leave the rein loose in my fingers. Not much slack, but loose so they can slip thru any time he wants. If I then need them, I can tighten my fingers, capture the reins, and make my request. But he is also free to move his head, shake it for flies, turn and gawk, etc. Even with a curb.

I view the bit as a boundary. Like a fence around a pasture. When the horse is in the pasture, the fence doesn't hit him. It only makes contact when the horse tries to leave.

As long as Bandit will control his own speed, his own energy, or turn with the flick of my wrist, he is in 'the pasture'. He is controlling himself, so I don't need to. But if he tries to go straight when I need him to turn, or to go faster when I need him to slow, he'll hit the fence. The bit and reins are there to keep him within a zone of acceptable behavior. Inside that zone, he has freedom.

Some riders talk about "body control". It is an old bugaboo of mine. Cues are not controls. They are requests. Maybe demands, if needed. But they inform the horse of what we want, and the horse's brain then controls his body. HOW he controls his body is often something we don't even know.

For trail riding, and for trail riding by my family and friends, I want a horse who handles all the "how" and sometimes the "if". If I keep the pasture fairly large, the horse HAS to make judgments - and the bit or reins or my legs or voice will tell him if his choice strikes me as unacceptable. My son wants to ride Cowboy tomorrow. If he does, it will be his 8th time on a horse, and he'll be out riding in the desert. He'll be busy trying to figure out how much to use the stirrups (or not) in a trot. He needs a horse who will handle all the rest - and maybe save his bacon if he gets too far off balance.

I've said it before: If I had to trust one horse with my life, it would be Cowboy. I hope to be able to say that about Bandit someday. I think Bandit may get there. Or he may end up staying like his previous owner described him - "_...a great beginner's horse, except for when he isn't. Then hang on...he can be feisty!_"

That wouldn't be all bad. If my family keeps riding, they should someday be able to handle a horse telling them to go to Hades, and what the most direct route is. And how to say, "_No thank you. Not interested. But we can try X - if you are willing to compromise..._"


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## bsms

This next post is NOT a defense of Tom Thumb bits. I've defended TTs before and probably will again, but this is NOT about Tom Thumb bits. It is based on watching Bandit in a solid shank, low port curb, and about bits and pressure and why I believe lots of lessons and going to clinics can make a person a WORSE rider instead of better...

Mark Rashid wrote an article about TTs. I think he spurred the 'they are garbage' meme. He wrote:


> Because the horse is taught to go away from pressure, it then makes sense that if you are pulling to the left, and the pressure from the bit is on the right side of his mouth, he will naturally turn his head to the left. This is the simple principle that is commonly referred to as direct reining, or "plow reining". It is also a principle that is almost impossible to perform properly with the Tom Thumb, due to its design...
> 
> ...Unfortunately, confusion is precisely what happens to a horse when the Tom Thumb is used. Because of its shanks, any attempt at direct reining results in pressure on several different areas around the horse's mouth. For instance, if you are asking the horse to turn to the left, you will be pulling on the left rein, with the idea that the pressure from the bit will be on the right side of the horse's mouth, thereby turning the horse left. However, because the rein is attached to the bottom of a swiveling shank, pulling on the rein results in the shank turning and tipping in to the left side of the horse's face. When the shank tips, it also shifts the mouthpiece, which, in turn, puts pressure on the right side of the horse's mouth by pulling the right side of the bit into it. You now have pressure on both sides of the horse's mouth, as well as a shifting of the mouthpiece inside the mouth.
> 
> If this wasn't bad enough, tipping the shank also results in the tightening up of the curb strap that is under the horse's chin. Suddenly, the simple act of asking the horse to turn to the left is no longer a simple act. *The bit is applying so much pressure in so many places, that the horse has no clue as to what you were asking for in the first place*.
> 
> http://www.markrashid.com/docs/tomthumb.pdf


Julie Goodnight's perspective:


> Tom Thumbs are VERY harsh and a commonly misunderstood bit (this bit is sometimes called a western snaffle or shanked snaffle). People tend to think they are mild because they think it is a snaffle, because the mouthpiece is jointed. In fact, it is a leverage bit, not a snaffle at all, and when you pull back on both reins at the same time, the joint pushes into the roof of the horse's mouth, causing a gaping mouth, and the sides of the bit squeeze the jaw in what is referred to as the "nutcracker" effect. *Almost all horses with this bit will open their mouth and try to evade the pressure and pain*.
> 
> USING A TOM THUMB BIT


Apart from Mr Rashid's factual errors - such as the shanks pivoting into the face - I think he completely misses the point about how bits work and how to train a horse to use a certain bit.

Here is Bandit using a curb bit. In one case, he is applying pressure to himself. In the second, I'm asking him to turn sharply around.








​ 







​ 
Mark Rashid says a horse analyzes the movement of the bit in his mouth (and on his face). "_I have pressure A asking me to do B, but pressure C is asking me to do D, and the curb strap applies pressure E asking me to do F...what should I do? I'm SOOO confused! I think I'll toss my head and open my mouth so my rider knows I'm confused!_"

I don't think horses do any of that analysis. In the bottom picture, I'm apply pressure to the right side of the neck, but that pressure is pulling the bit to the right and applying pressure that says go right, not left. It also pulls both shanks back (solid bit), so it is asking him to stop.

So what is Bandit doing? Turning left, as asked. With head tilted to the left, with his feet supporting a sharp turn left, and his ears forward and no attempt to slow down.

Now...WHY?

When I transitioned Bandit to a curb, I used a Billy Allen the first ride (IIRC) and then switched to a Tom Thumb. In transitioning him, I started by standing on the ground next to him, working on flexing slightly - NOT rubber-necking - both in the horizontal and in the vertical, depending on the type of pull. When he moved even an inch, he got release. We did that until he was responding well in all directions from the ground. Then mounted, and worked on it at a walk. Correct response / release. Correct response / release.

Did so at a trot when the walk was good, and a canter when the trot was good. In both cases, I ended up taking Bandit out after about 15 minutes total. And he has never shown a problem with the curb bits, including the Tom Thumb.

Watching Bandit in the solid shank curb, I know why. Bandit doesn't analyze things like Mark Rashid suggests. I doubt any horse does. He simply seeks relief. He wants release, and will adjust to whatever gives him relief. Since he learns what will give him relief before I ever mount up, it isn't a problem. The same was true when I transitioned Mia.

They don't analyze bits. *They just seek relief*. If you show them how to get relief, before you ever mount up, you never get the problem Julie Goodnight says is almost universal with TTs: "_Almost all horses with this bit will open their mouth and try to evade the pressure and pain_."

But I think this has serious implications for the idea of riding with constant contact. ​ 
If the horse doesn't analyze things, but simply seeks relief, doesn't that indicate that release of all pressure is highly desired by the horse? When I'm teaching my horse a new bit, I'm standing still. Next to a still horse. I'm making my pulls with the reins held lightly between my thumb and index finger.

Even so, the release / relief from that very mild pressure acts as a strong reward to the horse. So much so that Bandit was going out on a trail 15 minutes after first having a curb bit put in his mouth, and less than that on his second ride when using the Dreaded, Cruel, Confusing Tom Thumb Curb!

If relief from my applying pressure at a standstill, with zero bouncing going on, and pressure applied by two fingers holding both reins lightly, if THAT is enough that the relief is highly desired by the horse...what does that say about constant contact? Constant contact that isn't very constant or consistent because no one has ever measured a rider providing truly consistent pressures on a ridden horse.

Seems to me that while a horse learns to submit to pressure, the pressure remains fundamentally unpleasant to them. Not grossly painful. And because they dislike feeling pressure in their mouth, they become easy to train to a bit. Just give them relief. Quickly, at the correct response.

Then it doesn't matter HOW MANY places a bit applies pressure to, because all the horse cares about is "The Right Answer" - and the right answer is WHATEVER gives them release.

And yes, I sometimes ride Bandit for a few minutes at a time without giving him total release. After all, he applies pressure to himself when he feels like it. IT IS NOT CRUEL TO RIDE WITH PRESSURE IN THE MOUTH. NOT ABUSE!

But neither do I see any indication that horses LIKE pressure, and prefer it to no pressure for any sustained length of time.

That is part of why I find this riding, by a great rider, objectionable:








​ 
Yes, she can get excellent results anyways...although that does NOT look like a happy horse to me. I think it remains an open question:

*What could she get if she gave the horse more freedom?*

PS: I've tried to word this so it is not attacking anyone or their riding or their chosen sport. I'm doing it to explore how a horse can have fun being ridden, and part of that is by removing aspects of riding they don't enjoy...when possible. I'll address riding instruction later, after going for a ride.​


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## phantomhorse13

bsms said:


> If there is slack in the reins - English levels of slack - then there is about 1-2 lbs of pressure. I don't know if draped reins have ever been measured, but I'd guess heavy leather reins draped would produce more pressure.
> 
> The pressure with slack reins tends to be more even because it is impossible for a rider to perfectly follow the horse's mouth, and a little slack won't create the spikes.


From a purely analytical standpoint, I would be very interested to see how different reins and rein setups would relate to pressure. I would also expect heavy leather reins (potentially with slobber straps or rein chains) to create more pressure with slack than an average laced leather English rein, and a laced rein is heavier than my beta rein.

And is a slack rein really more even at speeds over the walk? How about a draped rein? I would be interested to see a pressure study on that, too. I sometimes realize I have let my reins loosen until I am holding the very end because they start flapping around as the horse is going down the trail at a trot or canter. My reins are pretty light, so that likely adds to the flapping.. but the force of gravity acting downwards on the reins would be a constant and increase as the weight of the rein increases. So with each stride, the horse is getting a pull from the weight of the rein itself. So what kind of pressure reading would a draped heavy leather western rein with a rein chain create at a trot? [Maybe another reason some western show horses have such modified gaits? Much less wiggling of stuff if there isn't much forward or upward movement to the gaits.] And of course slack vs contact would depend upon the rider giving the horse enough rein to maintain the slack at all times..

Fun things to think about when I should be cleaning the house!


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## bsms

@phantomhorse13, I wish equine research looked at various options of recreational riding instead of focusing on horses used in sports. I also wish there was more research done involving western styles and western tack. There are research reports on peak back pressures using an English saddle, but what about western? How do they compare?

Conventional wisdom is that western saddles spread the pressure over a much larger area. But the tree of Mia's western saddle fits on the Wintec pad about the same as my Australian saddle, and my Australian has about the same footprint my Bates AP saddle does. Further, the majority of saddle pressure measurements I've seen done with western saddles almost always show higher pressure to the front, and almost none at the rear of the tree. I have a theory about how western saddles handle movement, but there is no money to look at that. Tons was spent looking at rollkur, but that is something very few people ever use or will ever want to use.

With curb bits, does mechanical advantage increase the pressure in the mouth while slack is in the reins, or only after the curb strap is engaged. I'm pretty sure it is the latter, but that is an educated guess. That could affect what happens, particularly since some long shank western curbs give a 4:1 mechanical advantage.

And how much does pressure matter? It seems to me that the horse gets to determine how much pressure is used, provided the horse knows what is expected of him. Unless, of course, one uses the reins constantly. But even there, peak pressures can be vastly higher than the 3-6 lbs of 'soft contact'. 

Philippe Karl (sp?) cites a look Cavallo magazine did. Using the same snaffle, a western rider did a canter - halt transition using 2.7 kg/rein, applied once. Dressage riders used repeated half-halts measuring 8-10 kg/rein, then stopped using 10-12.5 kg/rein. After a short discussion, Karl asks, "_...apart from bodybuilding its followers and sacrificing them to its rites, what is the purpose of competitive dressage?_"

The question I'd like to see answered would be this: _If a rider uses constant contact, uses half-halts to rebalance the horse, etc, then what rein pressures are needed to communicate a request?_ Is it more or less or the same as a horse ridden largely without rein tension? - and rein tension starts well before the reins are straight.

Science would reply that there are 1000 variables in riding a horse and thus there is no scientific answer. In terms of peer-reviewed results, that is correct. But SOMETHING would be better than no attempt to quantify anything!

A friend sent me this quote:



> “It’s been said that only the educated are free, but I contend. Only those who are educated with TRUTH can be inherently free. Otherwise, you are simply indoctrinated with error.” ― J.E.B. Spredemann


To what extent is standard riding instruction based on fact instead of indoctrination? Without some factual basis - something measured in some way - how does one become educated instead of indoctrinated?

I think dog shows prove people can love dogs, dedicate their lives to a certain breed - and do terrible things to the dogs they love to make judges happy. I experiment with my own horses, trying to figure out what will give us the best results, but I own 3 horses and my riding niche - inexperienced riders riding in the Sonoran Desert - is a minuscule niche! But I've read lots of books, watched countless videos, participated in uncounted discussions on HF...and how does on separate the wheat from the chaff?

My son had his 8th ride, I think, yesterday. About 90 minutes. I have deliberately given him very little advice. I honestly don't know what advice to give. He wants to try cantering on Cowboy in the arena today, if time permits. Rather than give him my advice, I showed him some instructional videos, showed him the difference between his wife's cantering and my stiff-backed cantering...and if time permits, he'll see what he can figure out while riding Cowboy.

In reality, my son is learning riding from Cowboy, and from watching what happens when I ride Bandit. We went through a human neighborhood yesterday. Bandit got very tense inside, although he only did a couple of mild OMG Crouches. I asked him to trot a couple of times to get the sillies out of him. When I had an option to turn and go into the desert, I took it - explaining that it wasn't fair to Bandit to insist he continue going with that much tension inside.

When Bandit got tense, I reverted to what I call "Old Cowboy" style. I also explained that with my stiff back, I simply cannot ride as well as a lot of people can. My choice was one that helped me in part because I can't even turn around in the saddle. It is something I do because it works OK even with my limited body.

He played around, and I think he prefers to ride more like our wives do than how I do it! But he wants to shorten his very long stirrups to see how that works - for him.

The good news? At the end of the ride, I dismounted and led Bandit the final 1/4 mile. Bandit did not have fun yesterday, but he gave me his best the entire ride. I felt I owed it to Bandit to dismount and walk beside him for a little while.

My son & DIL hung back a little, talking. As I got near our property, my son & Cowboy came along at a fast trot. Cowboy's ears were forward - maybe because he knew the end was near! My son had an enormous smile splitting his face as they went past. At out little arena, he asked for and got about 5-6 strides of canter. Then he dismounted, removing tack and praising Cowboy and fussing over him. Cowboy was like, "_Yes, I know I'm spectacular. Spectacular horses deserve hay and water. How about it?_"

_I'll be pretty content if the only thing my son learns about riding from me is to appreciate what his horse does for him._


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## bsms

Short video from the beginning of yesterday's ride. Had the camera adjusted too high. However, it is the first time I've had any video of Bandit's cantering in the open. I think one can see Bandit has a really nice canter. This is by far the best place to do so, but I didn't know how the horses behind me would react. So we stopped - at a verbal cue, good Bandit! - and looked. Cowboy had trotted. Trooper, bringing up the rear, felt he needed to close the gap - which he did. My son said he wanted to do more trotting - and we did a fair bit once back on pavement. 

BTW - I'll delete older videos sometimes. Not sure I want to someday have 100 YouTube videos that no one will want to see...

Oh, and at the beginning, Bandit is off the dirt road because he finds it easier on his feet along that section. His choice. Fine by me.


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## phantomhorse13

bsms said:


> Short video from the beginning of yesterday's ride. Had the camera adjusted too high.


I like the adjustment being focused upwards - videos looking at the horse's neck always make me motion sick.. and you miss so much scenery!

One day, after I win the lottery and start my country-wide riding tour, I am going to invite myself over so I can see your trails for myself. :grin:


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## Whinnie

As you addressed me directly regarding my suggestion for you to find an instructor, I would like you to understand my reasoning. I have followed you for more than 2 years and see that you read volumes and watch numerous videos regarding horse training and riding. Apparently, you have never come across a good remedy for avoiding the bucking incident that occurred with Bandit. I am speaking about *preventing* it rather than what you did to stop him when he was bucking.
You said that Bandit was anxious, gave a choppy annoyed canter, etc. and then bucked. I have been instructed that when a horse is unfocused, jiggy, giving attitude, circles will calm them down. The more anxious the horse, the smaller the circles, trotting, keeping bend and workingto relax the back and neck. Changing direction, keeping calm and moving, usingseat, hands and leg all working to relax the horse. Horse relaxes, circles getlarger. I have been instructed to NEVER ask a horse to canter unless he isrelaxed and ready for it. That is usually where the bucking problem arises.
This has been recommended by more than a few instructors andI have used this on more than a few horses that gave me a little attitude.Doing this has resulted in never having it escalate into a buck, which I wouldhave a hard time riding out and don’t want to try.
I am not good at describing things, I am no instructor anddon’t pretend to be. I just know that someone who is on the ground, watching,correcting, adjusting and encouraging is better than any and all books and videos.Although I have come off more than one horse, I have NEVER been bucked offbecause it has never gotten that far. I have ridden many more years than you.
I believe that if time had been taken to get Bandit relaxedit would very probably have not resulted in a fight. I am certainly notrecommending you do this in the desert with cactus, but a little warm up in thearena when necessary might avoid a blow up in the future.
If you can find some reference to this in the books youread, and it is probably there somewhere, maybe you will understand what I amtrying to say.


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## bsms

> Apparently, you have never come across a good remedy for avoiding the bucking incident that occurred with Bandit. I am speaking about preventing it rather than what you did to stop him when he was bucking.
> 
> You said that Bandit was anxious, gave a choppy annoyed canter, etc. and then bucked.


I summarized a 30 minute ride in a few sentences. I didn't include, for example, that we did the first 10 minutes bitless. Or discuss anything I noticed about his emotional state prior to the ride. I also feel that single post was taken out of context from the other 1,000+ posts on this thread.



> I have been instructed that when a horse is unfocused, jiggy, giving attitude, circles will calm them down. The more anxious the horse, the smaller the circles, trotting, keeping bend and working to relax the back and neck. Changing direction, keeping calm and moving, using seat, hands and leg all working to relax the horse.


Not true of my horses. There may be horses who calm when asked to do circles, and tighter ones until they do. I've never seen any sign they had that effect on Mia (7 years of riding) or Bandit (2+ years). Enough people report success with it that I assume it is true for some horses. Mine calm using straight lines, and get unhappy with lots of circles. I would swear Mia would sometimes, asked to do circles or figure 8s, would look back at me after a couple as if to ask, "_Are you lost? Do I need to buy you a MAP?_"



> I have been instructed to NEVER ask a horse to canter unless he is relaxed and ready for it. That is usually where the bucking problem arises.


I had already cantered him multiple times. Some OK, some not so OK. If anything, I should have taken him out on the street to ride for 10-15 minutes...except it was the end of the day & the pavement was hot.

I've never had Bandit buck in a canter because he wasn't relaxed first. I've had him do it because he wanted to go faster, or because he wanted to keep going. He may have done it because he didn't like the setting sun in his eyes. Or maybe....based on knowing him, he did it just to be a PITA.

Some people claim the horse is never wrong. I think that is as great an error as saying the rider is never wrong. Bandit OFTEN has multiple bite marks. I don't put them there. The other horses think he is sometimes a pill. I am not always right - but neither is Bandit.



> I just know that someone who is on the ground, watching,correcting, adjusting and encouraging is better than any and all books and videos.Although I have come off more than one horse, I have NEVER been bucked offbecause it has never gotten that far. I have ridden many more years than you.


I disagree. First, many riding instructors suck at it. To put it mildly. I've been told to "Get a bigger whip" or to "Get back on your pockets". I've read, many times, that I should NEVER let my horse get away with anything. I've had lifelong riders tell me horses are always seeking to dominate their riders, probing for any signs of weakness. I've had instructors tell me to kick my horse and at the same time pull back so my horse would "round up" underneath me.

Second, it goes back to the indoctrination problem. A highly experienced person who shows dogs will often evaluate the dogs they love using standards that have nothing to do with the welfare of the dog. I think it happens with horses, too. I don't know how anyone can look at a WP lope and think "_That is beautiful and balanced!_" To be honest, I don't know how anyone can look at Beezie Madden in that video and think, "_That is how I want my horse to look!_"

If I thought I had a bucking problem with Bandit, I'd hire a pro to come out and help me - IF I could find one around here who seemed to like horses. But...

Bandit doesn't have a bucking problem. He did have one, back when he put the 6'3" guy on top of his neck. He also had a spinning problem, and a tendency to have a bolting problem. Those are gone. He has, IIRC, offered crow hops during a canter twice in 2017. A horse who knows how to buck will never entirely forget it, just as a horse who knows how to evade a snaffle will always retain that knowledge.

To a certain extent, I don't mind if Bandit sometimes bucks a little - or more precisely, tries to get his head down and thinks about bucking. My youngest daughter has watched us both. She says Bandit and I are a lot alike: "_You sometimes cuss at Bandit. Bandit sometimes cusses at you. Neither of you mean it and neither of you remember it 5 minutes later._"

It goes back to what my farrier has told me: "_If you want a point and go horse, you have Trooper. But you ride Bandit, in part because he ISN'T a point and go horse._" If someone could tell me how to suppress Bandit's occasional temper, and get him to stop telling me sometimes to go to Hades - and offer me a map - I wouldn't want their advice. Bandit and I mostly accept each other as we are, and accept that we sometimes cuss. I talk all the time I ride, and Bandit, in his own way, talks too.

He didn't do that, when I got him. Unless he was overwhelmed. Now he talks a lot, and I feel far safer. But I have no idea where I'd find an instructor around here who would laugh when we go at an angle past a pile of sand beside the road, like we did yesterday. Or when we climbed up yesterday and crossed some pretty rocky ground yesterday to avoid a tarp he had already passed 3 times this week because this time it looked different (and that Trooper proceeded to stroll past without a glance). Or who would understand a horse who nearly went off the trail at a canter because he spotted an empty bag of potato chips beside the trail (same one in the video above), and a week later got upset because the bag was GONE.

FWIW, I talked with an ex-rancher last fall, a few months before he died at 85. I mentioned Mia spooking when she saw a Palo Verde tree that had blossomed. He started laughing, and asked if she spooked again when the flowers fell off. I said yes. He laughed and replied, _"Horses! You have to love them!" _*I want to grow up to be like him! *If he was alive and willing to give lessons, I'd take them. Another friend, the one who trained all his horses strictly in a solid shank curb, is another person I'd like to take lessons from. But he is 85-ish and gave up riding 5 years ago.

I'm not trying to say instruction is bad. A good instructor can be wonderful. But most of the riding I do is outside the philosophy of the instructors around here. It is like with Bandit's previous owner. He started following Clinton Anderson because Clinton Anderson was so much GENTLER than the local guys. :eek_color: And my riding philosophy is much milder than Mr Anderson's.

I thank you, @*Whinnie* , for your sincere desire to help. However, I honestly think Bandit and I are forming a pretty good team. Heck, I've been married for over 30 years, but my wife and I still bump heads at times.


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## updownrider

> Constant contact that isn't very constant or consistent because no one has ever measured a rider providing truly consistent pressures on a ridden horse.


As I said previously, most riders do not ride by charts, and there are many variables to measure contact. Nothing is static, no ride or horse the same. No one would ever get the same exact result. We ride by feel, and I do not believe feel can be measure accurately. 



> Seems to me that while a horse learns to submit to pressure, the pressure remains fundamentally unpleasant to them. Not grossly painful. And because they dislike feeling pressure in their mouth, they become easy to train to a bit. Just give them relief. Quickly, at the correct response.
> 
> Then it doesn't matter HOW MANY places a bit applies pressure to, because all the horse cares about is "The Right Answer" - and the right answer is WHATEVER gives them release.
> 
> And yes, I sometimes ride Bandit for a few minutes at a time without giving him total release. After all, he applies pressure to himself when he feels like it. IT IS NOT CRUEL TO RIDE WITH PRESSURE IN THE MOUTH. NOT ABUSE!


Pressure applied correctly (with allowing your elbows to follow your horse's mouth) should not be unpleasant to a horse. Holding the horse's mouth without release is not necessarily abusive, but it might unintentionally lead to a horse developing what is called a hard mouth. This could create other issues that did not exist before.


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## bsms

"_Pressure applied correctly (with allowing your elbows to follow your horse's mouth) should not be unpleasant to a horse._"

Grossly unpleasant? No. 

More desirable than no pressure? More effective?

Unless one is going to ask for a lot of things in a short time frame, what would make it helpful? What is the upside that would make it worth learning and then using all the time? What can a horse do with it that they cannot do without it?

It seems axiomatic that it is easier to ride a horse without a following hand, using a little slack and making requests as needed. I can understand how a polo player might as well use it, and I understand why dressage teaches it. I use it at times with Bandit, who can sometimes get wound up with a slack rein. But there, my goal is to teach him to not need it, not to teach him to accept it.

And I want to be clear that I believe millions of horses are taught to accept it and are NOT ridden cruelly, harshly, abusively, [insert-negative-word-here]-ly. But Littauer, my all time favorite writer on riding, wrote:


> Chapter 10 Learning Control on the Intermediate Level
> 
> On the three chapters on the technique of controlling a horse this one is the most important. Elementary control, after all, should be primarily regarded as a passing stage in learning to ride, *or as a substitute for good riding for people who for one reason or another are not interested or are unable to aim for anything beyond a very primitive form of riding*... - page 144 Common Sense Horsemanship


I'd love to let him ride with a good western rider (not me, obviously) and then ask him, "Why?" Why are virtually all western riders people "who...are unable to aim for anything beyond a very primitive form of riding..."

I think it is obvious it is not needed for my highly limited goals. But what makes it a step UP? What is better: Doing math for a student, or teaching them to do it themselves?

I have ZERO problem with people saying, "_This is how to do sport X_". That is obviously the right of someone who actually knows and performs that sport. But for general recreational riding, and certainly for trail riding, isn't it desirable to teach the horse instead of control it?

That is perhaps the fundamental difference I see between what I desire to do as a rider and what so many tell me I should want. They want to control their horse. I want to teach my horse to control himself, and to work with me because I am worth being listened to.


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## waresbear

Good luck with that. Your are the leader, you battle the scary monsters and your horse gains confidence from that. Of course once the horse trusts your leadership skills and you don't betray that trust, you don't have to babysit him as much. Just my take on it. A broke horse moves away from pressure, hence the term "broke", meaning the resistance is broke, gives to pressure. I apply pressure with my calves on a certain part of my horse's side and he responds by lifting his back muscles to become round. I want him to lengthen his stride, I set up the back muscles, force it ahead with my seat pressure and set the bit pressure ahead, etc. Knowing where those pressure points are takes finesse and practice and skill, and finding & developing on different horses takes experience. Just what I have picked up from the years of riding and working with horses. Works well for me, and I thoroughly enjoy my horses. Bsms, you do whatever it is that makes you keep riding and enjoy your horses, that's all that matters.


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## updownrider

:eek_color: How do you take a few sentences I wrote and turn it into a novel? And include polo? Polo? I don't know anything about polo except at the games in Wellington and Greenwich I have attended the spectators drink champagne and stomp the divots. :cheers:

I enjoy reading your journal.


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## bsms

_"Works well for me, and I thoroughly enjoy my horses. Bsms, you do whatever it is that makes you keep riding and enjoy your horses, that's all that matters._"

Worth repeating.

"_Good luck with that. Your are the leader, you battle the scary monsters and your horse gains confidence from that._"

From post #8 at the beginning of this thread:



> OR - I can let them work on things by themselves. It goes back to Tom Roberts idea of letting a horse go past scary things on a slack rein - giving them freedom, and support, and letting them work out at least part of it for themselves. But when doing that, I need to be emotionally clear - sending a message of "I know you can do it" and total confidence in my horse. If I don't overwhelm him by putting him in a situation he can't handle, then the horse will learn confidence in himself and trust in me - in himself, because he succeeds, and in me, because I knew it all along.
> 
> I think THIS is what creates willing teamwork between horse and rider.


Two plus years later, it has worked the way I want - in the desert. We spend far less time in human neighborhoods and it shows. My honest evaluation of how well my theory works is that it acclimates the horse to a given environment, and teaches the horse to ask the rider what to do when things start to get overwhelming.

It will not get a horse to "point and go". At least, not unless that is part of the horse's nature. The stronger the horse's instinct for self-preservation, the more often compromise will be needed. I doubt it would be a good approach for a cavalry horse. Probably not good for sports horses.

Maybe it comes with starting at 50, but I do think it is a very good approach for a nervous & older rider. I've met middle-aged beginners who don't get out of the arena due to fear. I understand that fear. I've felt it.

But starting with Mia, and progressing with Bandit, it gives me a handle on my fear. Present tense, because I still sometimes tense up without reason. It has also seemed to turn Bandit from a horse who felt he needed to defend himself to one who will listen to me when he gets nervous, or when Plan A starts to fall apart and a Plan B or C is needed. I think he accepts that I come up with good alternative plans faster than he does.

A person's philosophy of riding should include both their starting point and their goals. That is why different people should have different philosophies.


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## bsms

I came across a website that has translated Caprilli's brief writing. Caprilli DID teach riding with 'soft contact', but I still find what he wrote very helpful. He was also writing about training new riders for the cavalry - not for show jumping, or for sports, but for masses of horses crossing rough terrain. The translation is copyrighted, but brief quotes are allowed for public discussion (which also comes under "fair use"). The translator notes:



> This naturally resulted in a very simplified, easy to teach and extremely effective system of military equitation that was far superior to anything that came before it. No longer was a rider required to learn useless school riding that had no real application in the field nor was a horse forced to move in an unnatural way...
> 
> Caprilli considered the jump not as an end unto itself but rather a tool for teaching his cavalrymen not to pull on the horse's mouth under any circumstances and to not interfere with nor attempt to assist the horse in any way that causes the horse to resist the rider's hands or other aides. - Federico Caprilli, The Natural System and Forward Riding


 As for a short quote from Caprilli (underlining mine):


> ...The first rule of good riding is to simplify the aides and reduce the interference of the rider with the horse. Enough of applying the hands to hold back a horse while at the same time applying leg to move it forward to instill resolve and determination in the horse! If at the appropriate time the rider applies one of these actions and then releases it and remains passive and does not disturb the horse under work, the results will be beautiful. To do otherwise will result in discomfort to the horse...
> 
> ...Care should be taken to eliminate all unnecessary bend and forced balance, as well as all leg action except that which is necessary for forward impulsion of the horse...
> 
> ...In performing these steps a rational progression must be observed, and to require that the horse is quiet and performs these steps with the least possible expenditure of energy, not only because the horse can preserve his energy for unexpected trouble but also so they do not form an aversion to work. The rider will get the horse into a state in which the horse pays attention and understands what it is required to do and then the rider must not disturb the horse once it is in this state...
> 
> Federico Caprilli, Per L'Equitazione Di Campagna - On Cross Country Riding


I would encourage anyone who hasn't read Caprilli to read the entire article. It isn't very long, but *it remains a radical approach to riding* - even today, 100+ years later! I honestly don't see much of Caprilli's teaching, or Chamberlin's, left in show jumping or hunt seat riding. I can only go by the videos I watch, but listening to George Morris say '_We can never do too much dressage_' leaves me wondering when the Forward Seat folks decided to toss Caprilli in the trash can. I'm guessing it came when artificial problems, as Littauer said, created artificial solutions - when the "Forward Seat" became the "Jump Seat". :evil:

The following is also from Caprilli, out of a book (not sure which one):



> "I marvel that with this goal understood and admitted, i.e., that field riding should be the ultimate aim of the cavalry, *they continue to want to teach a soldier a type of equitation whose principles are diametrically opposed to those of that which must be called the school of field riding itself*, and while they consider the latter a necessary corollary, they still consider it no more than a necessary corollary to manege equitation."
> 
> "Things cannot go on in this manner. In fact manege riding presents such difficulties and so many demands, such fine tact in practice that it is impossible that a soldier, considering the brevity of his enlistment and the variety of his other instruction, should succeed in learning its principles and applying them properly.
> 
> "... a horse 'in hand' in the manege is not a horse 'in hand' in the field; instead he will often be out of hand precisely in those places where the soldier must be complete master of his horse."


It interests me that Caprilli and Littauer both believed riding without stirrups was harmful instead of helpful. Caprilli argues that it causes a rider to tense those muscles Caprilli wanted relaxed. Both say it creates bad habit patterns in a rider who wants to protect the horse's back.

All that said, rapid movement across country is not particularly applicable to the Sonoran Desert. Heck, TROTTING isn't entirely applicable to much of what I like to do.

OTOH, Caprilli's interest in being able to teach new riders to ride well and securely across rough country, and his insistence on SIMPLE riding for simple riders, is entirely in line with my own. Pity my body was 50 years old when I started.


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## updownrider

> but listening to George Morris say 'We can never do too much dressage' leaves me wondering when the Forward Seat folks decided to toss Caprilli in the trash can.


George has never tossed Caprilli in the trash. Horses and courses have had to change. There are not many (any?) wide open fields left that serve as venues for horse shows. Loss of land is one of the many reasons courses have changed. Since the horse shows have had to move into smaller arenas the riding and horses had to change, too. No longer is a long galloping stride the only way to ride a course. When George says "dressage" he means more flatwork so a rider and horse work together to practice adjustability of stride length, turning, and other necessary movements to safely navigate the modern courses.


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## tinyliny

bsms said:


> OTOH, Caprilli's interest in being able to teach new riders to ride well and securely across rough country, and his insistence on SIMPLE riding for simple riders, is entirely in line with my own. Pity my body was 50 years old when I started.



those are very interesting points raised by Caprilli, very relevant back when you were training legions of young hearty and hale men to ride horses , flat out over rough terrain AND work a sword! Must have really been a sight to see.

I admire that , and wish I could experience that personally, but it does require a great deal of physical strength and balance to be able to stay with a horse, when it is allowed its full freedom of movement and speed, and the human is responsible for making any adjustment to NOT interfere with that.

That's why having the ability to 'shape' a horse into a more easily ridden frame/speed (read; 'dressage'), is what this almost 60 year old prefers. Horse might not like it as much, but I do.


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## bsms

^^^ That gets back to goals in riding. I don't suffer from loss of land. The state land 1/2 mile away joins to federal land and goes much farther than the lack of water will allow the horses to go. We're also considering getting a trailer to take the horses out to places like the Dragoon Mountains and Cochise stronghold. That is at least a year away...but the focus of show jumping (and it seems jumping in general to this outsider) has left the field. In a sense, I have more use for a cavalry horse than a jumper:


> The military horse must be essentially accustomed to the field, since it is here that the cavalry must perform in war uneven and varying terrain should be as familiar to the rider as it is to the horse. . . .
> 
> I call a field horse a horse that is of good disposition, calm and confident in the rider, fast and strong, accustomed to galloping for long periods over any kind of terrain, calm and alert in difficulty. . . .
> 
> Long years of practice and of continual observation have convinced me that the horse acquires these qualities without effort provided that the rider subjects him to rational and uninterrupted training, throughout which he tries to make his own actions the least disturbing that he can to the horse, and tries not to impede him in the natural development of his aptitudes and energies. - Caprilli, and I think it came from Littauer's translation in The Development of Modern Riding, currently available for $6 including shipping


Another issue for me might be purely physical - my stiff lower back, particularly on my right side, stemming from my one fall from a horse in Jan 2009. Both dressage and normal western riding emphasize a flexible back. It is like that scene in Rocky Balboa:


> You know all there is to know about fighting, so there's no sense us going down that same old road again.
> 
> To beat this guy, you need speed - you don't have it. And your knees can't take the pounding, so hard running is out. And you got arthritis in your neck, and you've got calcium deposits on most of your joints, so sparring is out.
> 
> So, what we'll be calling on is good ol' fashion blunt force trauma.


No use training to do what my body cannot do. OTOH, getting a little out of the saddle and turning the stiff back into a feature instead of a fault might help my horse:


> However, many of my friends who had "gone forward" after many years in the saddle along classical lines have complained to me that they get stiff backs from keeping the loin caved in, and stiff ankles from having their weight in the stirrups. It is true that complete relaxation of all the rider's muscles and joints can be had when walking with the leg hanging down and the back slack, but this practice makes the horseman "ride heavy" (a dead weight on the horse's back). So, while indulging occasionally in the slothful luxury of riding like a sack to rest one's weary bones, I think that all should give a thought to the poor animal for whom this way of riding is just that much more work. (Especially at fast gaits, or during really long walking periods, particularly if the rider is heavy). - Common Sense Horsemanship


Playing with it today in our little arena, using slightly shorter stirrups so I could stay just off the saddle at a trot and canter, Bandit seemed to move better - particularly in turns to the right.

Caprilli is a much closer match to my goals than much modern thought. A horse who is calm, forward and willing, covering rough terrain and ridden by new riders who have no desire to spend years perfecting their cues, balance, body, etc - a way a new rider can quickly and simply ride safely in the open. And I put over 200 lbs, saddle and rider, on 850 lb Bandit's back, then ask him to go up and down in places where he needs to use his back.



tinyliny said:


> ...but it does require a great deal of physical strength and balance to be able to stay with a horse, when it is allowed its full freedom of movement and speed, and the human is responsible for making any adjustment to NOT interfere with that.
> 
> That's why having the ability to 'shape' a horse into a more easily ridden frame/speed (read; 'dressage'), is what this almost 60 year old prefers. Horse might not like it as much, but I do.


Valid points. Part of why different people should use different approaches. Maybe it is because of maura's influence & getting me to read Littauer, or maybe it is how much my lower back hurts when I don't brace it while riding, but I find it much easier to get out of the saddle than to stay in it with a 'following back'. I suspect having 3" stirrup leathers, and sheepskin for grip, also plays a part. I borrowed my daughter's 4" deep stirrups today, and that helped too. My toes point more ahead with wider stirrups. Interesting.

I sometimes take 4 Motrin before a ride, but even that doesn't loosen my lower back enough. It is significant that my wife, DIL and even my son have no desire to get out of the saddle, nor do the horses seem to mind - when THEY ride. But they also have no desire to put in the time needed to learn "_to 'shape' a horse_". Not on their agenda. Fortunately, it doesn't matter with Trooper and Cowboy.

PS...Cochise stronghold...I'd love to try riding there someday. On my bucket list. I suspect I'd have to dismount a lot:











http://www.americansouthwest.net/arizona/cochise-stronghold/index.html​


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## phantomhorse13

bsms said:


> I sometimes take 4 Motrin before a ride, but even that doesn't loosen my lower back enough.


Do you have a diagnosis as to what is wrong with your back? I know it stems from the fall, but did you seek medical treatment for it at any point?

I ask because I have back issues after being trampled years ago. That event "altered" a couple lumbar vertebrae. As a result, I am not very flexible and am prone to sciatica .. but I have found things that help dramatically with my range of motion and overall comfort. What have you tried with yours?


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## bsms

@phantomhorse13, they told me 'just soft tissue damage' and sent me to a massage therapist. 3 months of treatment had zero effect, so I stopped. It has SLOWLLLY gotten better. I can jog now, although I've never gotten back to where I was before. It doesn't hurt every time I ride. But don't ask me to turn around in the saddle...

It may or may not affect Bandit's balance in right hand turns. I need to spend some time trying him doing right turns in the arena when my rump isn't touching the saddle at all.


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## phantomhorse13

Try yoga.

Not sure if your ex-military self is now seizuring on the floor at the very thought, but I am totally serious. Between regular chiropractic care and basic (and I mean basic) yoga, I have probably doubled the range of motion in my back and hips. I was a complete skeptic to start with but got cajoled into it by a good friend - and she was right. Since I am not much on going to classes where I always feel like people are staring at me, I do it at home where only the cat and dog mock me.


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## bsms

I'll....think about it. I'd have to do it alone. If I did it in a class, I'd soon be alone...

;>)


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## gottatrot

Hope you don't mind a little advice:

Soft tissues create most of the back pain people suffer from. It's true that people can injure the vertebrae or discs, and have nerve pain related to those. The openings the nerves run through can narrow or degenerate. However, I've heard many times from doctors that people with terrible looking backs on x-ray often have no pain, and people with great looking backs can have very bad, chronic pain.

The good thing about soft tissues is that even though they can cause a lot of aggravation, the pain can often be resolved if you find the right remedy. 

I have a couple of personal examples. I was kicked by a horse very hard in the left buttock. It developed a big hematoma (bleeding) in the muscle that formed a hard lump, then eventually went away after about a month or so. I thought I was fine, but didn't correlate this incident to the low back pain I began having soon after. 

My lower back hurt every time I rode for a couple years, especially on that left side. It would get tighter as I rode. Cantering was the worst. Finally, I'd be walking around and there would be shooting pains down the left leg, and my toes would go numb. That made me worry that I'd really hurt my back, so I decided to look up what caused sciatic nerve issues. 

Sure, it can be from spine injury to the lower back. But it also is commonly caused by piriformis syndrome. That's when a blow to the buttock, usually from a fall, causes the piriformis muscle to shorten. That can happen just during a couple weeks where you're limping and not using the muscle as much so it atrophies. But the sciatic nerve runs right under that muscle, so if it shortens it begins to rub on the nerve. That gave me lower back spasms. This will cause problems forever until you stretch the muscle back out again. 

Within two weeks of doing stretches several times a day that targeted the piriformis, my low back pain when riding went away and my leg/toe numbness stopped. 

I've also had IT band syndrome which causes pretty severe hip and knee pain when running. That also was cured just by doing the right stretches. 

All of this to say: it could be very helpful to pinpoint exactly where the muscles are spasming (that's what back muscles do with soft tissue problems), and the source of the pain. Often if you look up that exact area of the body, you can find the right stretch and just work that one spot. You have to be dedicated to doing this daily for at least a couple weeks.

I'm not personally committed enough to do yoga since I've got running, riding, and a lot of other time consuming things. Plus I scored in the 17th percentile once on a flexibility test done by a physical therapist. But I use targeted stretches whenever I have a sore area or injury, and it really helps, and can even solve issues that are quite debilitating.


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## tinyliny

sometimes flexibility is NOT an asset. In my case, my ligaments are so 'flexible' that my sacro illac joints move from aligned to disaligned quite easily. the doctor can move it back, and I will feel marked relief, with Chiropractic adjustments, but over a short period of time, it moves back out again. being hyper-flexible is not a good thing.

I agree, though, that soft tissue is more often than not the source of pain. I will say, however, that as you get older, you just don't heal as easily, and you can work hard at stretching and healing, and get some benefit, but the older body just does not every seem to get to being 'healed' and pain free. It's either low pain, or higher pain. not pain free. I vaguely remember being younger and getting 'all better'. Now, I get 'better'.


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## phantomhorse13

gottatrot said:


> I'm not personally committed enough to do yoga since I've got running, riding, and a lot of other time consuming things. But I use targeted stretches whenever I have a sore area or injury, and it really helps, and can even solve issues that are quite debilitating.


This is where I was going with the yoga suggestion, as the basic yoga I am doing is a combo of stretching exercises and some balance/strength exercises. I find both helpful because it makes me aware of just how crooked I actually am - which I didn't realize doing just the stretching, as I was more focused on stretching the problem area and not both sides. For me, it's not a big commitment as I try to do the yoga every other day for about 20 minutes. I don't run unless something dangerous is chasing me and I happen to be unarmed. :wink:



tinyliny said:


> you can work hard at stretching and healing, and get some benefit, but the older body just does not every seem to get to being 'healed' and pain free. It's either low pain, or higher pain. not pain free. I vaguely remember being younger and getting 'all better'. Now, I get 'better'.


I agree, as depressing as thinking about that is. However, for me anyway, the work is worth it to get to "better" even knowing it will never be "all better." Sounds like bsms isn't unwilling to work (not if the crazy man jogs on purpose!), so maybe if he can find the right thing to address his problem, he can have his back be better.


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## bsms

Posted this thread in the Riding sub-forum. Not to create argument (thus no added comments or emphasis from me), but because I thought folks might enjoy this perspective on riding from 1901:

*Federico Caprilli (1868-1907) Thoughts on training a Cavalry Horse*


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## bsms

Today's ride. The focus was on helping my son figure out how to ride Cowboy. Trotting side by side (nearly) was tough on Bandit, too. I think he remembered his racing days and was expecting me to ask him to push it up...and I didn't. A big part of my son's 9th lesson (7th since he started riding again) was the idea that holding the reins tight did NOT 'control' Cowboy. It is tempting to feel like that if he accelerates when you give him more rein, but trying to hold hm back will teach him to brace. Both my DIL & I tried to explain that you cannot hold a horse back with the bit. Not our horses, anyways. But you can say, "_Slow down. What? You decided to speed up again? Then slow down again. You have to control yourself because I refuse to play that game._"

Still, he was getting better. He has now cantered multiple times in the open, which is a whole different ball game than cantering in the little arena. Mia & Cowboy & Bandit all quickly decided "_Cantering in the arena means going in circles, and why do that?_" Cantering straight, with the horizon ahead, is a whole different ballgame.






One time I didn't catch on video was when I trotted Bandit briefly in the wash and Cowboy cantered to catch up. I looked back and little Cowboy was coming up like a charging grizzly bear. Then he passed us and tried to figure out what to do now that he was in the front. 

"_What to do? Hmmm...eat!_"

You can't sit on Cowboy. You work with him. You have to stay engaged or he will take over. But that, to me, is an important lesson about riding. And after the ride, once again, my son & my DIL were both laughing and joking about it. Truth is, I rode today so THEY would have someone to ride with while my son learns. I think the future will hold a time when they ride out together, just the two of them. That would be cool!


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## tinyliny

what a great ride! you are so lucky to have family that want to engage in this activity with you! and, Bandit is so pretty from this perspective; his glossy mane and pointed ears. Well done, all!


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## egrogan

Trotting side-by-side is hard work! My trail buddy is an 85 year old woman with a mare about Izzy's size. She loves to invent patterns and games for us to do on the trail or in the field. Our mares are pretty well matched, stride-wise, but Izzy is much more competitive than Jazz so it's a lot of work to keep her at a reasonable pace so they stay next to each other.

So happy your son is "hitting his stride" :wink:


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## bsms

Wish I had worn my movie camera today. It would have provided a couple minutes of interesting viewing. But my wife went with me today so I planned to keep everything low key. She rides a few times in a week, then goes a few months without riding. Unlike our son, she isn't interested in adventure, although she said she would like to try a little trotting today. My DIL had the day off so my youngest daughter got grandkid watching duties for a couple of hours.

Most of the ride WAS pretty mellow. I tried Bandit with the 'one hole shorter' stirrup position I had been using in the arena. When trotting, it is just enough that I won't touch his back...and he felt pretty smooth and relaxed trotting like that. I had my hand camera along, but only tried for a few snapshots:








​ 
The horses were behaving well. We did some trotting in the wash and some cross-desert riding (with Bandit sometimes trailing, which he did not appreciate but tolerated).

Coming back, we took the little wash that empties out where the trampoline is, followed by two small rises emptying out into a large open area. We had "Steady Eddie #1" Trooper in the lead, "Steady Eddie #2" Cowboy second, and a frustrated Bandit bringing up the rear.

Unfortunately, passing the trampoline while in the lead was more than Steady Eddie #1 could take, at least in the lead position. As he passed beside the trampoline ruins, he broke and bolted up the little hills to the flat area on top. My DIL said she felt him gather, decided she wouldn't be able to hold him, so she leaned forward and just rode it out.

Seeing Trooper break proved more than Steady Eddie #2 could take, so he bolted up the little climbs at a full gallop. That caught my wife by surprise, but she stayed on and decided she could do a big circle at the top to get him back in control - so that was what they did. When he galloped into the large open area, she turned him in a circle until he settled. Which wasn't long. Trooper was there. Some dried grass was there. BLM mustangs don't believe in wasting opportunities to eat, so he settled fast and went to grab a bite.

That left Bandit and I on the far side of the trampoline. My rule is '_No biting, no bolting, no bucking and no spinning. We'll negotiate the rest._'

But with both "Steady Eddies" bolting, he felt he ought to join in. I felt he ought NOT join in. So we did some spinning on the far side of the trampoline, with crow hops thrown in, maybe 3 full circles worth. Plus one more because he almost backed over a drop onto some rocks which would have ruined our day, so I spun him around to look at that.

No way I was going to hold him on the far side away from the other horses, so I told him to go past. Walking. So we did a swerving, crow-hopping, "_I can't BELIEVE you are insisting on this!_" walk past the trampoline. Bandit was VERY unhappy, but he walked. While twisting and crow-hopping, but darn it all, he walked. Up both little climbs, at a walk. OK, a hopping kind of walk. But he didn't trot, canter or gallop up. We rejoined the others - still at a walk.

Nothing pretty about it, but give the boy his due. No matter how unhappy he was, he was the ONLY one who WALKED. And if anyone had the right to run, it was the tail-end Charlie who had watched two Steady Eddies break and run!

So with all together again, I dismounted and led Bandit back to the trampoline. This picture was taken with me standing on the remains of the Beast. 








​ 
Bandit wasn't convinced he had anything to be embarrassed about, but he finally sighed. Then I led him back to the others, remounted, and we came home.

Back home, my DIL said she knew Trooper was very tense inside but she felt obligated to push him past. We talked about options, but I admitted that sometimes things happened fast and the best options end up behind you, so you have to make do. And if you can't hold the horse, then going WITH him is not a bad option. Certainly not the worst option!

My wife has been afraid of the idea of a horse taking off. But she said she was too busy riding to be nervous DURING the short bolt, and thinking about what to do next kept her from being afraid. Then it was over, as most bolts tend to be unless the rider gets scared. And once it was over...there was no reason to be scared. After all, it was over.

In fact, _both of them said it was kind of fun_, in hindsight. Not that they want to seek out a repeat, but needing to deal with a live animal, one with thoughts and feelings, is part of the fun of riding!

Me? I've always thought I could shorten my stirrup 0.5-1" without it affecting my staying on in trouble, but Bandit has been so well behaved that I haven't had a chance to test it. Today was the first trail ride I kept it a little shorter than normal...and it was 100% fine. Didn't cause any trouble at all. Of course, like the ladies, I was too busy RIDING to get scared, and then it was over.

The extra half inch seems to help Bandit to really relax in a trot, and he did some fast ones today without bracing. And I'm actually very happy with Bandit. He doesn't enjoy bringing up the rear, and having our two 'rock solid' horses take off was harder still. But the boy listened. To the best of his ability, he obeyed. The only horse who kept it at a walk, if crow-hopping qualifies as a walk. I think he gave me all he could, and much more than he once could. And he was in a D-ring mullen snaffle. And it all worked out, which gives Bandit reason to listen to me again in the future.

Just wish I had taken the video camera...:???:

PS - Part of me thinks I really need to go remove the trampoline remains. But I think I'll wait a few weeks and use it as a training opportunity for a little longer. Can't blame the horses for thinking it REALLY doesn't belong there!


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## Zexious

^I also wish you'd had a video camera ;D!

Sounds like a 'battle' (discussion?) won. 
Glad to hear you had a mostly uneventful ride!


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## bsms

Also got this picture today. This is the small cactus that blends in well with the desert & hides well in other plants - but that I think the horses would not be happy about stepping on:








​
Put a little grass next to it, and it is darn near invisible until you are almost on top of it.


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## tinyliny

sorta like a landmine


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## gottatrot

I think that's pretty amazing that Bandit was able to walk after the other horses took off. Also good that your wife and DIL weren't bothered by the little adventure. It might serve to help them even want to do more exciting riding in the future. I've been on quite a few horses that would not have been able to accomplish a walk when the other horses left, but a lot of it came down to your riding. Good job.


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## egrogan

gottatrot said:


> I've been on quite a few horses that would not have been able to accomplish a walk when the other horses left, but a lot of it came down to your riding. Good job.


I agree! Being in a situation like this was one of the few times I felt truly in danger riding Izzy. I think I posted about it here, but basically the friend I was riding with had her glasses knocked off when a big buck charged at us from out of a corn field and her mare shied away, throwing her head up and brushing my friend's face. My friend got off to get her glasses, was remounting by standing on a random pipe sticking out of the ground, and her mare bolted out from under her. Mare proceed to gallop for home. Isabel was frantic. My friend told me to just ride for home to make sure Bella got there ok (I still regret leaving her as she was a little shaken) but I did go towards home. Izzy demonstrated that a horse _does _know how to do a piaffe and passage even if not trained for it. :eek_color: She demonstrated this the whole.way.home (a couple of miles).

I still don't know if I did the right thing trying to hold onto her. If I had let her canter, she certainly would have cantered all the way home and we would have gotten there faster. She probably would have gotten less stressed out if she was allowed to move faster. But it just seemed like a really bad idea to put the idea in her mind that when she got scared, running home was the right decision. 

At any rate, we survived to ride another day, but it was dicey.


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## Zexious

The territory you ride in is unforgiving, no doubt about it!
The good news is that now you can ride just about anywhere


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## bsms

A friend of mine runs sheep in country like this, eventually following them as they graze on the slopes:








​ 
He used to trail them through here, but domestic sheep were banned from here decades ago...over 20 years since their last trip thru here:








​ 
They also work the sheep (and thus the horses) in canyons where they have to jump over deadfall and pick their way through heavy brush. I worked some of that country for the Utah DWR about 40 years ago, and you couldn't pay me enough to ride a horse there! The flats between the slopes? I'd love to. But the actual slopes themselves? No thanks!

My friend was riding Trooper's sire once, and came to a spot where there was a series of 3 foot "steps", with bare rock between them. It occurred to him if he could get a horse up there, he could cut 5 miles off the trip back to camp. Before he could think much further, the stallion - all 14.0 hands and 800 lbs of him - surged forward and jumped the first step, then the next, and they soon were at the top. It became their regular route...but that stallion was the ONLY horse my friend ever tried the shortcut with!

I guess I'm getting old, but I can't imagine trying something like that.

I look at the pictures people post of riding back east or in heavy woods, and I can't imagine that either. Poor Bandit would freak, at least for a few months. I'd probably be nervous longer.

--------------------------------------------------

Thinking about yesterday...maybe our "Steady Eddies" have been steady in part because they usually have followed Mia, and now Bandit. Their trust isn't in their inexperienced riders, but in Bandit. Seems to me that Bandit needs to stop being the leader 95% of the time and start sharing responsibility.

It also occurred to me my family NEEDS some time working on riding - in the little arena. Luck played a part in their staying on yesterday. And the former USAF Safety Officer in me doesn't like trusting luck. My training is to trust skill, good equipment and proper procedures. You can't prevent every accident, but you can certainly make them less likely!

Things like being able to take up contact for a few minutes, or trotting in two point in a figure 8, etc would help them. I'm glad they stayed on, but some additional skill would help their margin of safety!

I also assured my DIL that if she felt Trooper was getting nervous, then it was OK to NOT take the lead. We can always turn back, dismount, then lead them forward. I believe skill in PREVENTING explosions is more desirable than skill in riding them out! Both is best, of course. Things sometimes go to Hades pretty darn quick.

---------------------------------------------------------

We're heading to Utah tomorrow. My youngest, my son and my DIL will care for the horses & dogs. We're taking the two grandkids. My friend expects to bring the sheep down the mountain this week. The exact day isn't set in stone, but we'll try to help get them through the town without eating everyone's flowers. I greatly prefer a vacation like that to one where I go sightseeing.


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## Zexious

^Amazing!
I'd love a job like that.
Really, horseback riding comes with a certain degree of danger, whether you're sticking to a well footed arena, or scaling rugged trails. 

Have fun in Utah!


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## phantomhorse13

bsms said:


> came to a spot where there was a series of 3 foot "steps", with bare rock between them. It occurred to him if he could get a horse up there, he could cut 5 miles off the trip back to camp.
> 
> I look at the pictures people post of riding back east or in heavy woods, and I can't imagine that either. Poor Bandit would freak, at least for a few months. I'd probably be nervous longer.


Making a misstep in heavy woods generally won't kill you, whereas it just might when jumping up 3 foot rock faces or winding up with cactus that attach to you!

While there are certainly some unpleasant things here, even the pokiest stickerbush doesn't look nearly as horrible as any of the cactus you have pictured.. and unless you are riding at a very fast speed, you are unlikely to come upon it by surprise!


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## bsms

*Update on Mia*

We were on vacation and passing through where Mia now lives, so my wife called Mia's new owner - well, new since May 2015. He was as nice as could be. He was out of state so he couldn't invite us over to where Mia lives for a visit, but he talked about her. The next couple of paragraphs are filtered through what my wife said and my memory, but I've tried to make it accurate:

Said it took a couple of years, but Mia finally got over her spooking. She hasn't spun 360 or 180 in quite a while, and he now likes to ride her bareback! He & his wife both ride her in just a halter. She gets plenty of chances to run, so running isn't mind-blowing exciting. She is NOT used for racing, just as a brood mare and a horse to have fun on.

Part of what he liked about her when he met her was her feisty nature. I was worried he might be disappointed since she was MOSTLY an obedient horse in 2015, and had always been a willing horse. But he said he & his wife adored her, that it was fun to have such a horse who would try so hard and who was so willing. They simply have fun riding her. Which I can understand. Even at her worst, she was still the horse who got me hooked on horses.

This is a typical view from the general area where she lives. I don't know the exact location:








​ 
VERY different from here, which may explain some of Bandit's reaction to living in the Sonoran Desert! 

Having ridden both Mia & Bandit for years, I am certain Mia is a MUCH stronger horse than Bandit. I never, for a moment, thought my weight was too much for her or tiring her out. Bandit never quits on me, but my weight is enough for him to obviously feel it after 90 minutes. He doesn't complain, but it is VERY different from Mia. Mia's current owner is a big guy, much bigger than me. I think Mia would be the sort who would love a rider jumping on her back, riding her with a halter, and taking her out for long rides - including running. AND she is strong enough to deal with it.

Bandit is not. The first time I got on him, I thought, "Where is the rest of my horse?" He is very slender. The vet who looked at him when he arrived estimated him at 15.0 hands tall and 790 lbs. He is 2-3 inches smaller around than Trooper - who the vet estimated as 875 lbs. When he arrived, he braced his back at a walk and like an I-beam at a trot. That suggests to me he simply wasn't strong enough to handle heavier weights.

It sounds like Mia is working out very well in her new home. I think she NEEDED to run, and I simply couldn't meet her need. And honestly - even now, with a horse I trust, I wouldn't feel good at jumping on bareback and taking a strong horse out for a gallop. Not sure that makes me a weenie. I spent last week visiting an old friend with a ranch, who had ridden uncounted tens of thousands of miles. He said you couldn't pay him to get on a horse and go galloping away bareback. Things just look different when you are in your twenties. Mia needed the new environment and a fearless rider. I think it is working out well for her. And for Bandit, and for me with Bandit. Nothing wrong at all with "Win / Win"!


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## phantomhorse13

So glad you not only got an update on Mia, but that it was such a positive one! That foal is super cute, too.


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## bsms

Came across this: The full text of "Common Sense Horsemanship" online, free. The first allows a download of a pdf file.

https://ia600307.us.archive.org/1/items/commonsensehorse010454mbp/commonsensehorse010454mbp.pdf

Also:

https://archive.org/stream/commonsensehorse010454mbp/commonsensehorse010454mbp_djvu.txt


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## bsms

Had an interesting afternoon. Bandit's previous owner was in town & came by to see Bandit. Didn't ride - had a friend & his daughter along - but we had a chance to talk. Different talking face to face for an hour versus a few minutes of a phone.

Said Mia really didn't do many hard spins after her move. He thinks having a foal and spending time in a herd helped calm her down. I told him I thought having a confident rider and lots of room to burn off energy probably helped more. She had a second foal - a colt. He showed me some pictures of her being ridden with both foals following along. I forgot to ask him for copies, but my wife has texted him and asked. He also said they wouldn't start riding the horses until they were 4, maybe a little older. I was glad to hear he doesn't believe in starting early.

Said he sometimes used Bandit to haul a sled with his little girl on it, so Bandit couldn't have been very reactive. He did say Bandit was very good except for when he wasn't, and told of one time Bandit took off with him, bareback and in a halter, and nothing he could do would slow Bandit until Bandit was ready to slow. He & his friend said Bandit was one of their fastest horses, faster than some good Arabians they bought.

I mentioned Bandit had braced his back pretty hard. They said one of the guys who used to ride Bandit was at least 260 lbs, and he'd take Bandit out for a 10-15 mile ride. If a saddle was involved - and maybe it wasn't - then that would be 300 lbs on an 800 lb horse! Not a fan of using percentages, but *37%*?

He also said an old guy who hadn't ridden in years rode Mia just recently and had a great time. They view her as their most trustworthy horse. So yeah, I guess they are doing better with her than I was able. But they also said Bandit looked like he was enjoying his life here. They didn't think he really missed being a race horse. They thought he looked relaxed and contented. Maybe they were being nice...but maybe not. From watching the change in his attitude, I think Bandit finds life here relaxing and low stress.

He said he'll stay in touch via text. Also said if we got a trailer and started hauling our horses, we'd be welcome to go do a group ride with Mia and Bandit. That gives me more incentive to look at trailers. A chance to go for a trail ride in NE Arizona with both Bandit & Mia together...THAT would make me a very happy guy!


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## bsms

Posted this on the over-50 thread, but wanted to share it with some young ones too!



bsms said:


> Got some pictures of Mia and her foals...letting the filly get used to the feel of a saddle while out with Momma:
> 
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> The filly:
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> The colt with his sister:
> 
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> 
> Mia meeting the sire of both of them:
> 
> 
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> 
> Yeah, I feel like a grandfather showing pictures of his grandkids! Oh well...:loveshower:


I'm sure it has helped a lot for her to live in a place where they can spend time roaming like that. She wasn't meant to live in a corral. Some horses handle it fine. She wasn't one of them.


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## carshon

I think the fact that they are riding her in a bosal speaks volumes on where she has come in her confidence - and I am sure you played a huge role in the horse she has become. But I also believe as you stated that some horses do better in wide open spaces rather than small. We can "force" them to live where we put them - but it does not always mean it is what is best for them.

Her cold and filly are really nice looking.


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## egrogan

Wow. That little colt is truly a mini Mia. I would be a sobbing wreck if I was looking at pictures like that of Izzy :wink: I'm very glad you got the update, it must be very satisfying to see how well she's doing and how valued she is by her new people.


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## gottatrot

Great to see the pictures of Mia and her colt and filly! She has some nice looking babies. Between your training and her new environment, it sounds like she is a different horse. I think with very energetic horses, just having a lot of space to move around in without being cooped up can tone down their temperament quite a bit for riding. Plus her foals have probably used up a lot of her energy - bet they needed a lot of watching from their mom.
Obviously you made the best decision for her.


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## updownrider

I do like it when the grandkids come to visit. Mia's colt is a mini-me.


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## bsms

A note from history, gleaned from "I See By Your Outfit - Historic Cowboy Gear of the Northern Plains". I'm still reading it, but liked these pictures:








​ 
From the OW ranch in 1885. Notice the stirrup position. And from Wyoming around 1900:








​ 
Guess I'm not the only one whose toes sometimes point out!

The author cites a man writing in the late 1890s saying, "._..the stirrup was held under the arch of the rider's instep, as it should be_." 

The author also noted:_ "Ox bow stirrups began replacing the box style toward the end of the 1880s. They allowed the rider to place his foot in the stirrup all the way to the heel of the boot, thus allowing the boot heel to lock into the stirrup. The old time cowboys claimed this made for both a more secure stirrup when on a bucking horse and for a far less fatiguing ride._"

Not saying by any stretch that it is THE way to ride. I don't ride with my heel all the way against the stirrup. But it certainly was a COMMON approach used, and used in part because they felt it helped when a horse bucked - as many would have on a ranch back then. However, the author also noted that there was no one way of doing anything then, and some cowboys used regular street shoes. Or lace up boots. And a few did ride with just the toe in the stirrup.

BTW - I don't like oxbow stirrups. I find them uncomfortable. If I can get used to them, I think caged endurance stirrups would be the answer for me. Or maybe some wide Monel stirrups:








​


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## bsms

OK, the history buff in me is coming out. The below video is 40 minutes. It fascinates me! I don't think I appreciated the extent to which horses pulled, and people walked...in 1896! I can't help but wonder. Did horses gain a sense of security from the sheer numbers of horses always present? And the street sweepers apparently did an excellent job!


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## bsms

*What a difference a day makes!
*​ 
Yesterday, rode Bandit out with my DIL on Cowboy. Bandit hasn't gotten out much, and he's been in the small corral to keep him from re-injuring his foot. So I wasn't surprised that Bandit was tense heading out - tense as in a rock hard back. To give him credit, he didn't actually GO anywhere or DO anything wrong. But he spent the entire hour READY to jump sideways in an instant! It made me nervous. So much so that I dismounted twice.

Now...I was mounted while we were going parallel to the road, about 100 yards inside the desert, when an ambulance wailed on past at 60 mph. Bandit was very uncomfortable, but again - he didn't actually DO anything wrong. Later we had a helicopter pass low and nearby. Not buzzing us, and Bandit again did nothing wrong.

But even at the end of the ride, he was very tense.

Got to thinking about it. He showed no signs of foot injury, and he's been cooped up in a small corral for a month. Decided to put him in the big corral with the other two.

Everyone behaved fine while I was out. As soon as I started hauling tack inside, the running around began. I'd walk over; it would stop. As soon as I started moving gear back in the house, they would start up. Decided to let them go.

About an hour later, I heard a lot of noise in the corral. Looked out thru the window and Bandit and Trooper were rearing, spinning, kicking heels at each other, etc. So I stepped outside. In a flash, they turned toward me, side-by-side, ears forward, curious. Hmmm. Went back inside. Moments later, watching thru the window, they were chasing each other. Who was chasing whom varied, back and forth. Stepped outside. They turned, standing side by side, staring at me. After a few more repeats, I just watched them through the window. They added "Bitey-Face" to their contests.

Cowboy stayed off to one side. His relationship with Bandit has been pretty tense since he kicked Bandit in the knee and tore it open. Trooper and Bandit were going at it in play, but I think Cowboy realized it was NOT the right time.

Went out this morning, and the three were under the shelter. Bandit in the middle, facing west. The other two on either side, facing east. Tails hard at work brushing everyone's face.

My son & daughter went riding with me this morning. Got all three horses out. First time all three have headed out in quite a while.

*What a difference a day makes!*​ 
By the time Bandit's hooves hit the paved road, he was melted. Totally relaxed. For the next 1.5-2 hours, his ears rarely got more than 6 inches above his withers. When I ride with one hand, I find it awkward to put my free hand by my thigh. Unless I'm totally relaxed. I'd guess today it spent about 80% of the time hanging there. My rein hand probably didn't move 3 inches from Bandit withers for 98% of the ride. Other than dodging cactus, he pretty much steered himself all day using cues I don't know I'm giving.

My son hadn't been on a horse in over a month, and I think this was his 10th ride. So we mostly walked. But we walked all over, going off trail, dodging cactus, dropping into and climbing back out of washes. Bandit in the lead, as usual. Cowboy in the middle, as usual. Trooper bringing up the rear, as usual. And everyone completely relaxed!

I realize a lot of folks like to race around, and I wouldn't have minded some cantering. But my son wasn't up for it. And frankly, the 3 horses were so totally calm that it would have almost been like tossing a rock at a stained glass window. Speed can be fun. But the horses have had issues with each other since Bandit's knee was split open. Watching them all settle into their accustomed roles, RELAXED in their roles, acting like nothing could be more relaxing than the three of them taking a stroll in the desert - that was special too!
* Guess I've got a herd again.*​ 
PS: They spent the afternoon sharing the shelter, side by side, swatting flies off of each others' faces. Bandit DID splash all the water out of the water bucket, and then turn every bucket of every type upside down. Dennis the [expletive deleted] Menace in equine form. For better or worse, I think El Bandito is back to normal. As normal as he gets.

It is good to have him back!


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## bsms

Rode Bandit while my daughter rode Trooper. Bandit was more tense today. Oh well. We got a few short trots and canters in. We also went to a section of the neighborhood where he's been before, although not often. SCAARRRRYYYYYY!

Oh well. He got a few small spooks in, but nothing too bad. Nearly went to his knees, though, doing an OMG Crouch on pavement. But...we've done them before and we'll do them again. It's Bandit. I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for it all to disappear.

Afterward, my granddaughter - a very small 1st grader - got her first ride on a horse. Trooper. And Trooper earned his pay, behaving flawlessly. I'm thinking...for someone who has had zero instruction, not bad position! Particularly for such a small girl in a 16 inch saddle:


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## gottatrot

Your granddaughter is adorable! It's amazing how kids naturally stay loose and follow the movement of the horse. Throw an adult on a horse for the first time and they're all stiff and erring toward the fetal position. I imagine little Cowboy will be the right size and temperament for teaching kids to ride.


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## bsms

This thread:

http://www.horseforum.com/saddle-fitting-issues/saddle-issue-arab-782298/

evolved into an interesting and detailed discussion of saddle fit. As I read it this morning, I got thinking about Cowboy. He has very narrow shoulders, but very broad loins. I've been using a Semi-QH bar Abetta saddle with him. It fits at his shoulders. But my son has complained it wiggles around too much. I was chalking it up to him being a new rider, but my DIL said it wiggles some - more than Trooper's saddle.

So I got thinking. Maybe instead of trying to fit the front 25%, I should fit the very broad 75% past the shoulders? The Clinton Anderson/Martin saddle that had slipped on Mia has FQHBs. Never got around to selling it. So my DIL tried it on Cowboy today. As I got ready to saddle Cowboy...well, where Bandit has a spine, Cowboy has a dimple! Inverted U shape, not an A-frame.

With the saddle on, I moved it forward because the width of the tree and the flare meant his shoulders could move under the tree without touching the tree. At the rear, the flare of the tree extended just beyond his side. But it seemed stable, and it didn't shift when my DIL mounted up. 

She rode Cowboy alone in the arena while I saddled Bandit, which is an accomplishment in itself! I think we've had Cowboy 4 years and it was the first time I've seen him calm in the arena. He was a VERY sour lesson horse!

We were in the desert before my DIL remembered her helmet - and lack thereof:








​ 
Cowboy (eating in the picture) is the only horse I feel OK about riding helmetless. I've ridden Bandit without one a number of times...makes me feel naked. But Cowboy's idea of a spook is to race forward 20 yards and reassess. If really scared, he waits for his rider to tell him what to do. I truly believe he is our best horse.

I told her we would keep it at a walk, but we did multiple drops into the wash and climbs back out, including a climb out at one of the steepest spots we've tried. By the halfway mark, she said it felt very stable and secure. So when Bandit started to offer trots, I started accepting. We'd trot forward on loose reins for 50-100 yards, then Bandit would slow and Cowboy would catch up. Again, my DIL said the saddle felt more stable than the Abetta.

For his part, Cowboy looked totally relaxed.

I also tried a different saddle pad with Bandit today. We bought a 'Tacky-Too' Reinsman pad about 10 years ago. The horses sweated more in it and it has been used as a saddle stand pad for years. But it is a denser material than felt and I thought it might offer Bandit's back more protection.

I'll say this - it offered more grip! The saddle felt solid as a rock with it. And Bandit seemed happy. He was offering trots. When I took them, two point was effortless and Bandit acted happy and relaxed. We didn't canter on the trail - not with my DIL trying a different saddle and helmetless! But when we got back home, he perked up as we entered the arena. So I said, "_OK_" and he did a walk-canter transition, cantered smoothly to the far end, then turned 270 degrees and looked at the place where we take the saddles off. I laughed and told him "_OK, you're finished_" and we called it quits.

I plan on trying it again. It is winter. Upper 70s today, but we're not in the dead heat of summer. First impressions are often wrong, but it felt good to me and Bandit was moving well.

BTW - heading out, we needed to pass a giant reindeer. Made of wicker, painted white, placed near the road. Bandit was tense, but not deeply afraid - so I asked him for a fast trot past. 

Coming back, he moved off the pavement and just inside a neighbor's yard - but the house is for sale and no one there, and he was only about 2 feet off the pavement. Did it at a walk, staring at the white wicker reindeer. I can't blame Bandit for believing people want to torment horses! I mean...just who in tarnation WANTS a 6' tall, white, wicker reindeer in their yard???!!!! And then places it ready to spring at an unsuspecting horse - and Bandit will NEVER be an unsuspecting horse! *That boy plans on living a long life....*

Oh well. Today has provided more food for thought on saddle fit, saddle pads, etc. My DIL really liked the CA saddle. I always thought is was a very comfortable saddle to ride:








​ 
Also, I tried to capture the shape of Bandit's back. I can see it clearly outdoors, but the camera never seems to capture something subtle about the shading that my eyes can see:








​ 
Not perfect, any more than Bandit was clean at the time, but it is the best I can get. He's got some withers, not gross, and it falls away faster than most horses.

Apart from giant reindeer, he rode nice today. And I can't blame a horse for being suspicious about giant reindeer.

Also, today as I've noticed in the past...*the less I try to control him, the easier it is to control him*. 

Lots of folks say horses want a "Strong Leader". I'm sure many do. But I also think some horses ARE "Strong Leaders". Horses like that - like Mia or Bandit - need a "Confident Partner". Someone who hints at good decisions, but allows the horse some latitude in what follows. Someone who will suggest, "_Let's keep going fast a little longer_" or "_If we trot fast, the reindeer won't be able to get us even if it is alive!_" And then let's the "Strong Leader" horse decide the human advisor suggested a good plan...

PS: I looked it up. I'm using advisor as a job description:



> In the U.S. and Canada, _advisor _is commonly used in official job titles, but _adviser _is still generally preferred over _advisor _in North America, and _advisor _is only marginally more common in American and Canadian English than in other varieties of English.
> 
> Adviser vs. advisor - Grammarist


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## bsms

Accidental double posting!


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## evilamc

> BTW - heading out, we needed to pass a giant reindeer. Made of wicker, painted white, placed near the road. Bandit was tense, but not deeply afraid - so I asked him for a fast trot past.
> 
> Coming back, he moved off the pavement and just inside a neighbor's yard - but the house is for sale and no one there, and he was only about 2 feet off the pavement. Did it at a walk, staring at the white wicker reindeer. I can't blame Bandit for believing people want to torment horses! I mean...just who in tarnation WANTS a 6' tall, white, wicker reindeer in their yard???!!!! And then places it ready to spring at an unsuspecting horse - and Bandit will NEVER be an unsuspecting horse! That boy plans on living a long life....


Ha! Those fake reindeer always get my horses too. I think its that they LOOK like an animal...but don't move or smell...so it confuses the crap out of them. The first time one of mine saw some he literally lost it. Now hes gotten pretty used to seeing fake animals but he still stares them down.


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## phantomhorse13

bsms said:


> I mean...just who in tarnation WANTS a 6' tall, white, wicker reindeer in their yard???!!!! And then places it ready to spring at an unsuspecting horse


I have yet to encounter anything like this with Phin. Another fun one would be the inflatables that seem to be all the rage for lawns every holiday. I can only imagine the horror..


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## gottatrot

It will be interesting to hear about how the horses do with the different saddles.

From the photo, it doesn't look like Bandit has a back very similar to the Mustangs around our area, which are generally a mix of spanish and draft blood. They tend to have somewhat low withers, a straight shoulder and quite rounded back muscles with a barrel that is rather tubular front to back. Because their shoulder is not large and laid back, and the back tubular, they're rather easy to saddle. 









Bandit's back looks like the back muscles slant down on either side of the spine rather than forming a rounded surface. That is normal for many horses. However, since you've described his past with a very heavy rider and bracing back, it makes me wonder if his back would have been more rounded without that history.


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## evilamc

phantomhorse13 said:


> I have yet to encounter anything like this with Phin. Another fun one would be the inflatables that seem to be all the rage for lawns every holiday. I can only imagine the horror..


LOL we've met those AND giant moon bounces...surprisingly Jax handled that better then the fake deer. Fake deer...he REALLY didn't approve of. The first time we encountered them it was a display of them pulling santa's sleigh...He literally shot backwards and of course started pooping...neighbors just watched in horror not sure if they should do anything. I finally got him to STOP and look at it...still fidgeting but stopped. This was in like the first month of owning him so I didn't want to test my luck so we left at that.


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## bsms

Son's 11 ride, 9th since he started riding again after a 3-4 year break. Something I like is that he is starting to insist Cowboy do what my son wants (sometimes, at least) instead of just letting him do what he feels like. He's starting to tell Cowboy, "Let's leave these horses and go look over this way".








​ 
During the "Where's Cowboy" section, he took a wrong turn but then insisted Cowboy listen to him and depend on him to get them back with the other horses. He finds riding Cowboy a lot of work, but he really enjoys it.






My daughter, meanwhile, continues to insist stirrups are optional. That is part of why I don't let her ride Bandit. That, and Bandit EXPECTS direction from his rider and doesn't want to drift along...








​ 
Unfortunately, I didn't get the video of where my son rode Cowboy across a gulley my daughter & I dismounted for. It is a sharp descent followed by a sharp climb. Cowboy is like an ATV. He is in the gully and then climbs out. Bandit and Trooper are like trucks whose rear wheels are still going down while the front needs to climb out. My daughter and I both think the horses could handle it. But if we're wrong, the horse could break a leg on the rocks in the gulley. So...being 90% certain isn't good enough. *I'm at an age where keeping my horse safe is vastly more important than me looking macho...*

But 13.0 hand Cowboy fits. He is also very surefooted and won't go somewhere if HE isn't certain he can make it. He is one HECK of a horse! Now...if I could find some fenders that would fit my 5'2" son and 5'0" DIL...

PS: Cowboy is being ridden in a curb, but the reins are attached to the mouthpiece. So it functions as a mullen snaffle.

PSS: I think at the very end of the video, Cowboy was saying, "_If you aren't smart enough to dismount, I'll just take you back the the corral with me.._."


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> He is one HECK of a horse!


I agree! The way he comes down that wash so fast but with every step solid. He's quite a leg mover, very flashy. Your son stays very balanced on him. Both the trot and canter cracked me up, seeing how Cowboy goes along like Mighty Mouse. He moves more like a gaited horse, with his body staying so level but his legs just going like crazy. 
It would be tough to learn to post on a horse like that - the tempo at the trot is so fast.


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## phantomhorse13

bsms said:


> Now...if I could find some fenders that would fit my 5'2" son and 5'0" DIL...


I didn't notice your son have trouble keeping his stirrups in the video, but they do make youth-sized fenders. My SIL needs them as she is only 5'. I know she has gotten both leather and synthetic ones from amazon.


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## Chevaux

I really like Cowboy -- he's one of my favorites on the forum.


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## bsms

Chevaux said:


> I really like Cowboy -- he's one of my favorites on the forum.


Cowboy is probably our favorite as well. I'm the only person in my family over 5'2", so being 13.0 hands isn't a drawback for the rest of them. And his "What in the heck makes YOU think you are the boss of ME?" attitude combined with his genuine desire for his rider to take control if things are nerve-wracking means he has "spunk" when spunk does no harm, but is reliable in a pinch. So you get "attitude", but only when attitude does no harm. The more you NEED him to listen, the more he listens.
----------------------------------
For a variety of reasons, I haven't ridden since last Saturday. Felt better today. But my son works as a school bus driver, and he has the day off. Sleeping in. My college daughter has the day off. Sleeping in. Beautiful morning and Bandit hasn't been ridden in nearly a week....so time to ride, alone, in the arena. Depending on Bandit, we might go out alone.

Well, we didn't go out alone. I suspected he would have a lot of energy built up. He did. My main goal was to get the boogers out of his brain, that being the main cause of tension in a horse. I know this because my horses all act calmer after they blow a lot of snot out 20 minutes into a ride. Anyways, I gave him freedom to decide the pace. I would, to some degree, choose the direction - but if he wanted to tighten a circle, that would be OK by me.

For the first 15 minutes, we did almost all trotting and cantering. I was using the Abetta saddle, which is a little small for me. Combined it with the Tacky Too pad and a looser than normal cinch. I didn't ask Bandit for a trot or canter during those 15 minutes. I just rode whatever he offered to do. And he offered to move. All of which was fine. No one else was in our little arena so we could do whatever we wanted - and I wanted to do whatever he felt like doing! So we did.

I was careful on saddle placement, positioning the Abetta more like an English saddle. Bandit normally gets antsy with a looser saddle, but he was fine today. The Tacky Too is a grippier pad. Enough so that Bandit was content. And while the saddle is a little small for me, the ground - the shaping of the upper part of a western saddle added to the top of the tree - is just about perfect for my thighs. I had no desire to truly honor "No Stirrup November", but I kept them long and tried to pretend what one western riding instructor told me to pretend - that I had a raw egg between the ball of my foot and the stirrup. The Cordura nylon top of the Abetta offers plenty of grip for my jeans, so it all felt pretty good to me.

I assume it felt pretty good to Bandit, because he remained pretty forward during the second 15 minutes of our ride. We started to get a few walks in, but a shift in my balance was enough to get a trot or canter going.

People talk about "soft horses", and a lot seem to think a trail horse who hasn't been taught to collect isn't soft. But to my way of thinking, a horse who will canter at not much more than a thought, or who will turn 180 degrees when you look intently that way is a soft horse! I'm not going to pretend Bandit does it all the time. There are days where he isn't much interested in what I want, and on those days he isn't too "soft". We had minutes like that today, too. But we also had plenty where I don't recall doing much more than thinking 'maybe a trot now' - and we'd be trotting.

I think Bandit is like a lot of horses ridden by one rider for a few years. He has times where he isn't interested. But when he is, he picks up on things I don't even know I'm doing.

A lot of his trotting today was done head up, with some tension in his back. We were trying to get the boogers out, so I expected that. But most of the time, he was also being very responsive - maybe because he knew he was welcome to canter 100 feet, turn at a trot, trot 75 feet, turn, canter 50 feet then slow. Maybe he was so responsive because he knew I wanted him to do what he wanted to do anyways?

During the last 15 minutes of riding, we did more walking. And his neck was only slightly above his withers. He did some major nose-blowing and I could feel the tension going out of his body. I called it quits then.
--------------------------------
I needed the longer stirrup setting. I needed to get my legs all around him. When your horse has the right to turn a tight 90 degrees without asking...well, I'm sure a GOOD rider could make it work while perched on his back. But I don't have the balance or grace, so having my legs down around him felt good.

I read a thread this week on a forum where I never post. The thread was like some found here, with lots of talk about how may times they have fallen. I assume they were English riders because they complained that western saddles made them fall more.

Personally, I think there are techniques that make it easier to stay on a horse, and practicing riding a horse who is varying his speed and sometimes his turn based on HIS will is a darn good practice. If your riding philosophy is one where the horse must always go at the pace you set and turn in just the way you require, then how do you learn the reactions that keep you on when a horse STOPS being predictable?

Today, for example. The Abetta puts me in a more vertical body position than I like. So I needed to adjust by keeping more upright, almost to the point of being 'on my pockets'. Otherwise, sudden stops or slowing got my torso too far forward for my seat. A 16" version of the saddle might be 'just right' for me. But the 15" version doesn't make me fall or get off balance. It just means I need to adjust my habits to match the situation.

I'm embarrassed to admit it, but in many ways I prefer the $400 Abetta to my $1800 leather saddle. I could rope in the leather one..._but I don't know how to rope_. The narrower twist and smaller footprint of the Abetta works very well on my super-slender Bandit's back. It feels like someone molded it to match the shape of my thighs. I suspect a lot of English riders would prefer the Abetta to my leather saddle. Heck, my jeans have drying horse sweat all along my calves. And I'll admit a 15 lb saddle is more inviting to carry out than a 30 lb saddle...

Does anyone make an English saddle out of Cordura nylon?


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## bsms

My son took the camera today & mounted it on his helmet. He moves his head a LOT...and the video was mostly painful to watch. Fisheye lenses don't work well when moved around. They distort too much.

However, he had a plan to teach Cowboy to listen to him and for him to get to work on trotting and cantering on a day when my daughter was feeling tense. While I kept the speed down with my daughter, he would hold Cowboy back...working on getting Cowboy to listen to HIM and not just tag along with the other horses. But once some distance opened up, he'd let Cowboy go any speed Cowboy wanted for catching up...teaching my son how to balance at a trot and canter/gallop.

At the 6:20ish mark, he rides past one of those cacti that requires a rider to trust his horse.

Also: He is getting very confident riding COWBOY. He is afraid to ride Bandit (and I wouldn't let him) and has no desire to try riding Trooper. Much of his confidence is confidence in COWBOY. The flip side is that he & Cowboy do seem to relate well to each other. I don't think my DIL or wife could have done this.

By the end of nearly two hours of riding, Cowboy was tired. But as the final seconds of the video show, even at the end, Cowboy was entirely willing to go fast. If asked.

Now...when we got back to the arena, Cowboy walked directly to the untacking spot and made it clear he had done enough work for one day. And he had! That little BLM mustang is a great guy! But it fascinates me to see how much confidence my son has in Cowboy after a dozen rides total in his life. AND how well Cowboy responds to that confidence.






Still shot of Bandit & I using the little Abetta. Bandit doesn't like another horse passing him:










PS: The trails are in uncommonly good shape right now. Bandit was entirely willing to trot or canter. But my daughter wasn't feeling good about her control of Trooper at speed...so we held back. I told her my years on Mia had taught me just how hard it can be to mount up and ride on a day where you don't truly trust your horse. AND if that meant Bandit & I kept our pace down, so be it!

Some days are diamond. Some are coal. On a coal day, having a companion who rides beside you instead of berating you is important. And my son, in his 30s, is old enough to fully understand as well.​


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## bsms

Copied part of the above post on the Over-50 thread, but then got philosophical. And since this thread is about Bandit as well as Cowboy, I quote myself from the over-50 thread:



bsms said:


> ...PS: Bandit did very well today. He got a little tense when riding down the paved road, but he was wonderful in the desert. At one point, we were stuck. No good option to go forward, but my daughter had ridden up on our tail and wasn't up to getting Trooper out of the way. So I looked careful at the narrow gap between the cactus, remembered how Bandit walks like a gal in high heels, placing each foot in front of the other...and asked him to press while telling my daughter to turn around in the gap we would open.
> 
> Bandit somehow threaded his way between the cactus, including a VERY tight 90 degree turn. I wouldn't have tried it with any other horse, including Cowboy.
> 
> It is a thing of beauty to be able to trust your horse. I don't think the best rider in the world could direct a horse between the cactus using body control. Not when it gets THAT tight! You really have to just give yourself over to your horse. It is amazing just how graceful a horse can be! And how precise! His feet were going down within a couple of inches of some big spines. And he was acting totally relaxed about it!
> 
> But I also enjoyed watching my son's trust in Cowboy. I think some horse/rider combinations just click. Bandit & I took some time, but we really ride as a team. As new as my son is to riding, he teams up well with Cowboy. My daughter, today's ride even, has no desire to ride any other horse than Trooper.
> 
> There have been times where I've asked myself, "_Why not just use a dirt bike? It would be SOOOOO much simpler!_" But then, you can't put your trust in a dirt bike! You can't say, "_I don't have the skill. I need YOU to take care of US now!_" That, to me, is the glory of horses.
> 
> The Thousandth Man ​
> ONE man in a thousand, Solomon says.
> Will stick more close than a brother.
> And it's worth while seeking him half your days
> If you find him before the other....
> 
> ...But if he finds you and you find him,
> The rest of the world don't matter;
> For the Thousandth Man will sink or swim
> With you in any water.​
> I guess that is kind of how I feel about horses. *It may take one man in a thousand with men, but the odds are a heck of a lot better with a horse!*


Bandit has his faults, as do I. But you can feel it - yes, even through a western saddle! - when your horse says, "_OK, I've got it. Chill, dude!_" When Bandit accepts responsibility for something, he is very determined and very steady. At one point today, I was defeated twice by interlocking branches on a route to drop into the wash. My son on 13.0 hand Cowboy thought he had a way that would work. Let's just say it was one of those places that worked better for a 13.0 hand pony and 5'2" rider than a 15.0 hand horse carrying 5'8". To get thru, Bandit raised his head so the branches would brush past his throat...and then smack me. Oh well! They were soft branches at least, and Bandit accepted getting through. So all I had to do was protect my face.

My daughter dismounted and led Trooper thru. Not a bad decision. Right now, the three horses each has a rider who works particularly well with THAT horse. And each of us comes up with different solutions. But when you can say, "_Now it is up to you!_" - that's intoxicating! And I'd swear the horses respond with, "_Yeah, well...I am amazing!_"


> ...There is another thing to be considered with regard to the horse's character - *it loves to exercise its powers*, and it possesses a great spirit of emulation; it likes variety of scene and amusement; and under a rider that understands how to indulge it in all this without overtaxing its powers, will work willingly to the last gasp, which is what entitles it to the name of a noble and generous animal... - On Seats and Saddles, by Francis Dwyer, Major of Hussars in the Imperial Austrian Service (*1868*)


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## bsms

Added this screenshot of Bandit from yesterday's ride:








​ 
That isn't typical of how we ride, except for when Bandit chooses to ride that way. Between the shirt and too-small saddle, I look like I outweigh my horse. And the use of the reins...not exactly how I like to ride, but Bandit wasn't interested in the "STOP" on the road.

That was part of why we moved into the desert then. Nothing like a bunch of cactus at your feet to say, "FOCUS!"

And is it just me, or is his tail longer than it was two years ago?








​


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> And is it just me, or is his tail longer than it was two years ago?


Wow, yes. His neck and hindquarters look more muscled up too.


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## bsms

This is part of a post I made on gottatrot's journal. It is about yesterday's ride. I was home alone, riding Bandit in our little arena, and I tried going fully slick on my saddle...with 'bucking rolls' added as mini-poleys:








​ 
I had forgotten just how slick it is when slick.



> Bandit got feeling pretty frisky, as far as I could tell. But in my fully slick saddle, I wasn't up for it. I felt like I was going to slide out of the saddle on some of the turns and transitions. Bandit was ready to roll, but I wasn't up for it. We ended up having some pretty heated discussions. He isn't used to me worrying I'll come off during a turn and he didn't want to hear "_Slow down! Take it easy! I'm struggling here..._" When I have one hand tightly on the horn, trying to keep from sliding sideways off my horse, I'm not having fun.
> 
> We ended the ride "on a bad note". I was getting ****ed and it wasn't likely to improve, so I did what people say one shouldn't do and ended it before I totally lost it. But thinking back, I wonder how many horses have had rides where they felt the same way?
> 
> I was struggling, and my horse wasn't doing squat all to compromise. He wasn't paying any attention to MY problems. After 30 minutes, I was about to totally lose it. But...how many horses have felt like that? I didn't see any signs Bandit was deliberately causing me difficulty. I'm not sure he was aware, really. And how many horses experience that day after day? Asked to do stuff they are not physically, mentally or emotionally ready to do, feeling like their safety is compromised, while the guy on top is thinking, "_What a fun day for a ride!_"
> 
> 
> 
> While it is easy to abuse your horse mentally without noticing the little inconsiderate things which one may do without meaning harm, it is also as easy to acquire a habit of thinking about your mount as a living being. It is encouraging to realize that the horse by his nature normally tries to cooperate and be good, and it is disturbing to know how often he is not given a chance to do so. Great satisfaction can be derived by any civilized human being out of the consciousness that he is kind to his animals, particularly those he uses for his pleasure.
> 
> There are thousands upon thousands of riders in this country who have a great accumulation of delightful experiences derived from companionship with their horses. If you don't happen to be one of them I would like to suggest your trying it; it will increase greatly your pleasure in being in the saddle. *I am particularly addressing these words to a young woman who, while sitting on the horse's kidneys and pulling with all her might on the curb, was overheard to say*:
> 
> *“Oh boy, ain't riding fun!"
> *​
> - Common Sense Horsemanship, VS Littauer
> 
> 
> 
> I think that was what Bandit was doing yesterday, and it isn't much fun being on the receiving end!
Click to expand...

Not sure if I'll keep the saddle slick for a while or not. It might be I could handle it with better attention to my balance, use of stirrups, etc. Or it might just lead me down the road I've already trod with Mia, when my position becomes all about staying on.

The saddle like that works well when the horse is going along calm and steady, like Bandit was doing initially. I can see why it would be a very good design for someone spending long hours riding a good horse in the open. But it isn't a design I'd recommend for barrel racing, or for an excited horse in an arena that measures 80' x 120' at the absolute maximum! Particularly if the rider has been telling the horse it is OK to lean into the turns...:icon_rolleyes:


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## bsms

*The Glory of Sheepskin!*

Did a short ride this morning. What a difference sheepskin makes! Left the bucking rolls on because it didn't seem to do any harm.








​ 
Today's ride went SOOOOOO much nicer than yesterday's. Used two hands for the reins for everything today, comfortably. Perhaps the best test came when I had dropped the reins (10' yacht rope loop) so Bandit could grab a bite to eat. Our butts were turned toward the vegetation along the arena. As I leaned forward to keep a hand on the reins, some quail (I think) decided it was time to explode out of the brush and get further away.

Of course, Bandit had the same thought at the sudden and unexpected sound right behind him. He gave a jump forward, then a dropped shoulder 90 degree turn and landed in a canter.

Yesterday, I would either have come off or been left desperately grabbing for the horn. Today, it was "_Oohhh Bandit!_" as I started gathering the reins. Scratched his neck and he started to slow before I used the reins, so we stopped that way and I told him he was silly.

I didn't convince him, of course! None of MY horses ever feel embarrassed over an excess of caution. None of them even know what the phrase means! How can someone have an "excess" of caution? That is like being too good looking, or too much hay. Some sets of words just don't go together.

He gave me some nice relaxed canters. Some fast trots with tight turns, *but what a world of difference sheepskin makes*! So easy to go, "_Well, if you want to, go ahead!_" So easy to keep slack in the reins and ask for a turn with an opening slack rein. So easy to be STABLE and feel secure!

Also, FWIW, here is about as good a picture as I've taken of Bandit's A-frame back. Not a horse most folks would want to ride bareback, and maybe not horse who would want to be ridden bareback. And yes, I cleaned him up more before riding...:wink:


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## horseluvr2524

Yup, riding bareback on an "A-frame" is like sitting on a pole. Yeeowch! Shan has the same kind of back. Big old "shark fin withers" I call them. Her chiropractor always commented on what a huge set of withers she has for a little horse :lol:

Once she gets enough exercise to muscle that topline up, it's not so bad, but still not something I endure for longer than twenty minutes.


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## horseluvr2524

Hey @bsms , hope you don't mind the little segway, but I was wondering if you have any tips for removing desert dust from the horse's coat? I always feel like the horses end up dirtier after grooming than they were before, despite meticulously cleaning the brushes. I sometimes think of just bathing them not only after riding but before as well!


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## bsms

^^ I've never figured out a way to get the dust out. I've been told wetting the brush would help, but it doesn't seem to. If anyone knows of something that works, I'd love to hear it.

Also, I was wondering about @*gottatrot* 's comment. Could it be that he is this much of an A-frame because he had to carry 300 lbs running while younger? Could that much weight have reshaped his ribs a little? Guess there is no way to know. But working hard with upwards of 40% of his body weight on his back HAD to be wrong! I worry about my 170 lbs plus saddle on his back walking and trotting and sometimes cantering a little. But add another 100 lbs on top of me, and run him for 10+ mile training runs?


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## bsms

There is a discussion on @gottatrot's journal concerning saddle fit that I've stayed in too long and am going to drop out of. I apologize to gottatrot for getting drawn into pulling her journal off-course.

However, some of it got me thinking about a college course in ecology that I took in the 70s. We were discussing ecosystems and factors affecting them, and the professor asked when an ecological factor could be considered significant. His answer was that, at a minimum, we had to be capable of measuring the impact before we could call it significant. That raised the issue of tools of measurement. After all, if our tools became more precise, then something that wasn't significant would become significant merely by our acquiring better tools of evaluation.

The professor's response was that as a practical limitation, how could we be concerned something was worth noticing (significant) if we couldn't measure it for investigation. Science is always limited by its technical ability. Isaac Asimov wrote an article whose gist was that many advances in physics only came after our tools of measurement improved.

With horses, our understanding of saddle fit (for example) depends on how accurately we can observe effects. If the only time we consider the saddle to "not fit" is when it results in the horse bucking, then our measurement is very crude - and so is the resulting understanding. If I position Bandit's saddle a little more forward, I can cause him problems at in cantering long before he starts to buck in protest. So I can start thinking about saddle fit & position issues earlier.

But a horse needs to move its shoulders more aggressively to turn at speed. So if I include looking at how well Bandit turns in a canter, I might notice issues that don't appear when he is moving straight.

Trying to fine tune my tools more, I might move into more subjective measurements, such as how eager does he seem? If he shows reluctance to canter or trot fast with a given saddle or saddle position, or tends to fall out of a canter earlier in a turn, then I may pick up on issues I otherwise wouldn't notice.

Of course, if I rode him for 20, 40 or 60 miles a day, I might also be able to detect issues I won't ever see while riding him for 1-2 hours maximum.

So...when do I have a significant saddle issue? If I cannot detect it, it doesn't mean the issue doesn't exist at all. But it certainly is true that if I cannot detect it, it will be hard for me to do anything about it! And it seems reasonable to me that at my level of riding, with shorter durations and a lot of walking, a saddle issue that would be significant for a top barrel racer or an endurance rider or someone who ropes may truly be "insignificant". A 10 lb difference in weight in the Kentucky Derby is enormous, but pretty insignificant to my horses with our lifestyle.

If we talk about how complex or simple horse riding and ownership is, a lot depends on our desired outcomes. It won't take long for me to learn to strum a few chords on a guitar, and lots of folks spend their lives happily strumming a few chords. OTOH, a lifetime isn't long enough for someone to truly master classical guitar. I can learn strumming and a good variety of chords from reading a book and trying it out at home. If I wanted to play like Segovia...well, I never could. But I'd certainly need to plan on many years of lessons and practice at a minimum.

Years ago, I looked at my unimpressive waistline and concluded my levels of fitness would always be a compromise between my willingness to exercise and my fondness for pizza and ice cream. Although I'm obviously anal about riding, adjusting my tack day to day and fiddling with my stirrup length several times during a ride, my riding IS pretty simple because my horse and I are happy strumming a few chords over a beer, so to speak. A horse and a rider focused on having fun with each other for 20-120 minutes can have a pretty simple life. At least until my horse gets a splinter in his foot and I need to worry about infection, or I try going full slick with my saddle so my horse needs to worry about me being flicked off in a turn (although HE didn't seem to worried in the least, if truth be known). Then things get "complex" until we learn enough for things to go back to being "simple".


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## gottatrot

Good stuff. 

Really like this Littauer quote you posted. 



> Great satisfaction can be derived by any civilized human being out of the consciousness that he is kind to his animals, particularly those he uses for his pleasure.


What I see as a common theme among a few here on the forum is kindness and trying to understand the horse. Even when debating the details. 
I don't think it's likely that people who are watchful and think of their horses as friends are going to be unknowingly abusing them. Also, as we were talking about balance, what would be the use in distressing ourselves over the subtlest things and taking away from the fun we might be having? 
That's still my goal anyway, and if my horse seems to be enjoying things most of the time I'm not going to worry too much. 



bsms said:


> Of course, if I rode him for 20, 40 or 60 miles a day, I might also be able to detect issues I won't ever see while riding him for 1-2 hours maximum.


Several times when you've mentioned this, I've thought to comment. Oddly, saddle fit issues that are going to bother a horse usually show up in those 1-2 hrs. From what I've seen and heard from others, you're not usually going to have a problem show up with the saddle or back in mile 30 that didn't show up at mile 5. If there was a problem at mile 5, obviously it will be worse at mile 30. But almost guaranteed if you are riding two hours in a saddle with no issues, your horse will go all day in it just fine.
What does show up later is usually things like subtle girth rubbing, saddle pad issues, even bridle or bit rubbing or hoof boots. Those things you don't notice in a couple hours but they get aggravated over time spent on a sweaty horse.


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## phantomhorse13

gottatrot said:


> From what I've seen and heard from others, you're not usually going to have a problem show up with the saddle or back in mile 30 that didn't show up at mile 5. If there was a problem at mile 5, obviously it will be worse at mile 30. But almost guaranteed if you are riding two hours in a saddle with no issues, your horse will go all day in it just fine.


I think this goes back to just what is the problem and the individual horse. Of our 4, we have had 3 where a saddle seemed to work fine for training rides, then did not work for competitive distances. And I am not the only one, as two of the saddles currently in my tack room were sold to me because of similar issues for friends' horses.

You know from my journal all the shiitake I have gone through trying to find the right saddle for Phin (though I guess an argument could be made that the _saddle_ wasn't the issue, but the girth was.. but surely all the parts need to work together for a positive outcome). I compare saddle fitting to trying to buy jeans or shoes.. the measurements are just a starting place!


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## gottatrot

phantomhorse13 said:


> I think this goes back to just what is the problem and the individual horse. Of our 4, we have had 3 where a saddle seemed to work fine for training rides, then did not work for competitive distances. And I am not the only one, as two of the saddles currently in my tack room were sold to me because of similar issues for friends' horses.
> 
> I compare saddle fitting to trying to buy jeans or shoes.. the measurements are just a starting place!


Thanks for this, I acknowledge that my experience is a lot less than yours and you have a broader knowledge base in this area. 
It reminds me that I've also seen saddles that work very well even over long distances for one rider but a different rider in the same saddle makes the horse sore.


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## phantomhorse13

gottatrot said:


> It reminds me that I've also seen saddles that work very well even over long distances for one rider but a different rider in the same saddle makes the horse sore.


I have seen this too.

Then you have the lucky situation where one saddle works under any and all circumstances, no matter who is riding the horse for how long. That happened with my mare and I had no idea just how unusual it was.. sure wish I could get that lucky again!!


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## bsms

phantomhorse13 said:


> ...You know from my journal all the shiitake I have gone through trying to find the right saddle for Phin (though I guess an argument could be made that the _saddle_ wasn't the issue, but the girth was.. but surely all the parts need to work together for a positive outcome). ...





gottatrot said:


> ...It reminds me that I've also seen saddles that work very well even over long distances for one rider but a different rider in the same saddle makes the horse sore.


I've posted recently that I really like our Abetta saddle but felt it was borderline dangerous because it left me too forward. The stirrup adjustments on Abetta fenders only allow for about 1" changes in length. So today, I replaced the 5.5" deep stirrups with another pair I had that are 5" deep - thus shortening my stirrup length by 0.5".

I still believe a 16" Abetta would work better for me...but that one change made it a much more comfortable saddle to ride. I also stuck my front-half Wintec foam pad under the front, raising the front of the saddle 3/8" - and that also helped with my balance.

Meanwhile, I had replaced Bandit's normal mullen snaffle with a single joint D-ring. After all, we've ridden many times in a single joint O-ring.

Don't know if the O-ring makes it easier for Bandit to place the bit where he likes, or if I was unconsciously using too much rein. He got fussy for a while about mid-way thru. Started moving his head a lot and acting irritated. I started getting mad, and we fussed at each other for a while.

Then I started telling myself, "_The less control I take, the more control I have. The less control I take, the more control I have. The less control I take, the more control I have._"

I gave him a lot of slack and tried to position myself to ride out any reactions. So what happened? About 3 minutes later, he was cruising along with his head barely above the withers, mostly steering with leg. "*The less control I take, the more control I have.*" But did the D-ring versus O-ring also help start the conflict? It also is 1/16" smaller in diameter than the O-ring, and the copper inserts in it a little rougher. 

It would be nice if we could all ride in perfect tack, fitting us and our horse flawlessly. I might buy a 16" Abetta some time...but it might still need the Wintec to help flatten out the saddle's rock for flat-backed Bandit. Some leather youth fenders are on their way, but they may end up on my good leather saddle for my son & DIL to use with Cowboy while I make do in the Abetta - in part because I can compensate, while they need all the help they can get.

When I see threads asking about bit A versus B, or will this piece of tack help or hinder, I don't know what to say. I often reply anyways. :-? Something may be better than nothing. But if small changes make a big difference in how my horse & I interact, after several years of regular riding, what does one say to someone about a horse & rider you've never seen, using tack similar to but not the same as what you have tried?

In any case, neither Bandit nor I are temperamentally capable of holding a grudge. By end of ride, we were both feeling like pals. He used my arm as a rubbing post, as always, and looked pleased with himself. I told him he was a fine horse and I'm sure he agreed. My DIL was happy with Cowboy, while poor left-behind Trooper was soaked with sweat from running around in the corral, screaming. So all the horses got hay pellets as a thank you. Nothing says "We love you" like food. But...

"*The less control I take, the more control I have.*"​


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> "*The less control I take, the more control I have.*"​


This is the advice I needed to hear today.


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## bsms

I've been thinking about it some more, and I feel I need to add that gaining true control by not imposing control is something Mia needed, but Bandit has learned.

Most approaches to training horses are based on stamping out their will. HF has a "sticky" on how to train a trail horse. It starts with, boldface mine:



> Here are the best tips and 'rules' I have for making a good trail horse:
> 
> 1) * Obedience is NEVER optional.* A good trail horse is nothing more than a horse that does everything 'right away' that a rider asks. *Absolute and quick obedience -- 100% compliance without an argument should be the goal. *
> 
> 2) Your job (as the rider) is not to let your horse look at everything new and decide it is OK. That is your job. You should NOT show him that there is nothing to be afraid of. Your job as an 'effective' rider is to teach him that he needs to trust YOU and ONLY YOU -- not his natural instincts. *It is your job to teach him to pay attention to his job (doing whatever you ask)* and not his surroundings. Your goal should be to teach him to ignore anything he 'perceives' as fearful.


Reining is a "hot" western sport. It takes the same approach:


> To exemplify that reining is a team effort between a "highly educated horse and an extremely skilled rider," *the NRHA handbook describes the goal of reining competition: "To rein a horse is not only to guide him, but also to control his every movement." To English riders this description may ring familiar. "Reining is almost western dressage," says [Mike] Flarida*...
> 
> ...*He also looks for a horse with average intelligence*. "A horse that's too smart soon learns to anticipate everything. I become 'old hat' to them and they don't listen anymore. A horse that's too dumb doesn't retain anything. The best horses are the ones of average intelligence that I can motivate."
> 
> Reining: Fun, Fast and Challenging


Note the writer doesn't even notice a conflict between saying "reining is a team effort" and that its goal is "to control [the horse's] every movement"! 

Mia was frustrated with the whole "The Divine Right of Riders" approach from the beginning. Bandit had been trained using Clinton Anderson videos as guides to more humane treatment of horses...but Clinton Anderson takes the reining approach. And Bandit accepted it.

When I got him, he didn't want to think. Not most of the time. He was used to being pointed, told to go, and have bad consequences if he did not. If sufficiently afraid, he'd fight. But he wasn't used to thinking on his own while being ridden. Giving him 'control' confused and worried him - at first. We started small and built up. I don't know how many times I've told him, "No, you tell me!" When facing a problem, I'd wait for a moment to see if he had ideas. Or 'suggest' an option - which he usually took, but I offered it as a suggestion, not a demand.

I frequently see western riders say things like, "_I tell my horse to go at a certain pace, then expect him to maintain it until I say otherwise._" That is like the story a guy told me at church last Sunday, about a guy who told his wife, "_I don't need to tell you I love you! I told you I loved you 25 years ago. If anything changes, I'll let you know!_" But in what sense is a horse a "partner" if he cannot tell you he is tired, bored, his feet are sore, the rocks hurt, the other horse is lagging behind, etc?

Dressage riders write about a horse "seeking the bit". As usually described, it comes when the tired horse stretches his head forward. The rider maintains "light contact' because, after all, the horses is "seeking the bit". 

No! Blast it all, that is a tired horse stretching. Being tired, he doesn't have enough energy left to AVOID contact...so he accepts it.

Seeking the bit is what Bandit does when he is excited (because we are going fast) or worried about something ahead, or just curious about what I want to do next. SEEKING the bit comes when the horse believes the rider has something to say that is worth knowing, so he "asks". I think there is a huge difference between a horse seeking contact, and the rider imposing contact.

Horses seek contact when they trust their rider. Riders impose contact when they DON'T trust their horse.

I understand being afraid of your horse. I've been there many times. More with Mia than Bandit, but I get tense on Bandit sometimes too! When you don't trust your horse, you want to impose control. And sometimes it is needed! There are times I need to tell my horse, "_Stop thinking! Just do! *NOW*!_" Particularly in human neighborhoods, or traffic. Horses find cars hard to understand and predict. I find them easy to predict - and dangerous.

It is hard to find that balance between the need to control (sometimes) and giving a horse (or child, or subordinate at work) freedom to make mistakes. I wanted my kids to grow up, but worried they could kill themselves before they became adults. I want my horse to grow up too, but he truly lacks the instincts and understanding to handle SOME situations.

But an intelligent horse will resent being told to obey mindlessly. And I think there are more intelligent horses out their than there are sensitive riders! I've read that the large majority of sports horses have ulcers. So many that some people theorize that horses SHOULD have low grade ulcers! But maybe the horses are just stressed out from suppressing fears and being punished at the first sign of thought!

As a rider of a horse who is starting to enjoy thinking, I struggle almost every ride to balance my need for control with his need to be a thinking partner. I struggled with it yesterday. I'll struggle with it today or tomorrow. What bothers me is how few riders DO struggle with it...:think:

*"**Absolute and quick obedience -- 100% compliance without an argument should be the goal. ...To rein a horse is not only to guide him, but also to control his every movement."* Yegads!


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## bsms

*LONG post warning!*
​ 


> "A horse, whose response to rein pressure is to stick head up, stiffen neck...never taught how to give to a bit correctly
> 
> You do not force this give,by using 'more bit',but rather by creating a conditioned response...creates horses that never resist any bit in the first place...
> 
> As the one article stated, hard mouth is really a hard mind....
> 
> ....Everytime you reach for the band-aid solution, you might get physical control of that horse, but he remains hard in his mind...." - @Smilie
> 
> "bingo!" - @Reiningcatsanddogs
> 
> http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/bits-traning-%3D-more-whoa-tips-785090/


Part of me wanted to respond on the thread where these comments were made. But my response would be more about philosophy of riding, and what one wants from a good horse. And that wasn't germane to what the OP was asking. But it IS very much about what my last few posts on Bandit have been about, and a big part of why I like Bandit. So I'll reply here.

"_BSMS, have you run competitive games? I have,in my younger days, and have national titles in pole bending, plus year end hi points in gymkhana..._" - Smilie

As you know Smilie, I don't "compete" on my horse. But what you wrote shows no connection with competitive events that I have experienced - such as running. Not running a horse, but running as a runner. Sports, not on someone's back, but using MY body.

Raw athletic ability is critical. With enough athletic ability compared to those around you, you can win. Easily. But as humans go up the scale in competition, they reach a point where athletic ability is a given. EVERYONE at that level has a very high physical ability. What then takes over is mental. And if one reads about top runners, being "mentally soft" isn't a compliment! Running, or riding a bike, etc - if you cannot persist into pain, if you won't keep going when it is very hard and your body is screaming, you won't win. Because at the high levels of competition, the OTHER person will pay the price!

As one coach put it, "_If you don't collapse at the end of the race, unable to take another step, you haven't given your all!_"
-------------------------------------------------
In the movie Hondo (going by memory), the woman tells Hondo, "Y_ou chose the most stubborn, difficult horse we have!_" And Hondo replies, "_Yes Ma'am. I wouldn't own a horse who gives in easily. If he gives in easily to me, he'll give in easily when the Apache are chasing us. I need a fighter._"

I don't compete. And I don't plan on being in a life and death chase anytime soon.

But Bandit is "mentally tough". He has a hard mind. When he gets an idea, he holds on to it. He doesn't just give in to me because he believes he is carrying Jesus on his back. He is not and I hope he will NEVER be a horse who just obeys.

When there is a patch of difficult trail ahead, I let Bandit look and think. When his body tells me he has accepted it, we go. And WE GO, and Bandit isn't going to turn back or give up because some branches hit him or some cactus sticks him or because the footing is tougher than he expected. I have confidence in Bandit because he'll respond by buckling down and trying harder. He's not the sort to just give in and wait for a new idea from his rider! 

That is part of why they used him for the final leg in his relay race days. They said if he could SEE the horse ahead, he could PASS the horse ahead. Or if he couldn't, it wouldn't be because he was giving anything less than his best. The other horse might beat him, but he would never beat himself. Like any good racer, human or horse, he didn't just give in. He had to be beaten.

--------------------------------------------------------

A horse who never resists a bit, who never resists his rider, is a soft horse. But he isn't a tough horse. You've asked me before, Smilie, what Bandit would do if he was halfway across a river and saw a scary rock ahead. Based on 2.5 years of riding him...he'd get across the river and then deal with the rock. Once he decides to do something, he is not easily detoured.

Now...in an arena, Bandit will normally slow from a canter at a whisper, or at a seat cue. Why not? He's only going in circles. What is the fun of that? He's being pretty obliging, from his viewpoint, in cantering at all. On a trail, if he is in the mood, he will also slow at a whisper.

If he is not in the mood? If he is excited? If he is in 'race mode'? If he hasn't been ridden much lately and is full of beans? Then he won't stop at a whisper. He probably won't stop the first time I use the bit. I've cantered on him while he bucked enough times to know he resents being told to slow down when HE wants to run! I just need to sit deep and keep at it until he accepts that I'm not going to give up, and that I've already ruined his fun. Then he slows. And we will both be mad at each other, but we will both get over it in 1-2 minutes. No grudges on either side.

Cowboy, our BLM mustang, is much the same. He has his own opinions, and more than enough will to try to impose them on his rider. AND THAT IS PART OF WHAT WE LIKE ABOUT HIM! He is small enough, surefooted enough and smooth enough at speed that it isn't too hard for the rider to push back. But a rider has to work while riding Cowboy. Bandit is more easy-going...except for when he isn't. His first owner's comments when I got him have proven true for me as well: "_He's a beginner's horse except for when he isn't. And then you need to ride it out!_"

I use a mullen snaffle or a short shank low port curb with Bandit. He isn't some fire-breathing dragon who needs some incredibly harsh bit.

In an arena, where I've been told to get a horse "soft", Mia got very soft. Why? Because she was a very willing horse, and the arena bored her. So there was no reason to put up a fuss. Once we got past some issues, I did 99% of my arena riding using my pinkie finger on slack reins. IN THE ARENA. But get her going fast with a trail going to the horizon, or worse, with another horse running nearby, and she was TOUGH to stop. Not because she didn't understand. But because she had a ton of will of her own. And when she was excited, she used it!

Bandit isn't quite as soft in the arena, in part due to how I've been working him. I don't ask him any more to turn "straight" - ie, easy to stay on. If he can turn more efficiently by dropping a shoulder, I've told him that is OK. His job to do X. My job to stay on while he does. I don't ask for slack and he doesn't give me much. 

In the desert, he is actually softer than Mia because he just doesn't find it as mind-blowing exciting. He gets excited. He'll tell me to go to Hades and provide me with a map. But one of his qualities is that he doesn't ever lose his mind. Thus we often use a mullen bit.

If George Morris can recommend a double-twisted wire snaffle for some horses, I'm not the only person who has ever encountered a willful horse.

Here is what Larry Trocha writes:



> "A two year old colt will have a much more sensitive mouth than a ten year old horse. The more pressure or abrasiveness the horse’s mouth is subjected to, the quicker it will toughen and lose its sensitivity.
> 
> That is why I want to use as mild a bit on the horse as I can get away with...I did NOT say I’m going to use the mildest bit possible, no matter what. I said, I want to use the mildest bit possible that WILL GET THE JOB DONE. If a horse absolutely refuses to respond to a very mild bit, then I’ll step up to the next bit in the sequence...
> 
> ...My favorite training snaffle has a thin, smooth mouthpiece that is 3/16” in diameter. I call it a “thin, smooth-wire snaffle”....I’ll stay with the smooth-wire snaffle just as long as I can. *The horse will be taught the majority of what he needs to know wearing this bit.*...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> ...Okay, now let’s get back to the bitting process.
> 
> Again, as soon as the horse lightens up and is responding well, I’ll switch back to a milder bit.
> 
> The practice of using a stronger bit to lighten a horse up and then switching back to a milder bit for every day riding, works really well to preserve the horse’s mouth while keeping him working right."
> 
> https://www.horsetrainingvideos.com/bittinginfo.htm


I don't have a problem with Bandit's mouth getting dull from too much training and too much rein - which is why I think horses get dull to a bit. The bits I use with him are arguably some of the mildest snaffles and curbs made. But he is a mentally TOUGH horse. Not mean. Not rebellious. *Determined*. And I want him to always be like that. I want Cowboy to stay like that. We don't expect our horses' thoughts to always "be between the reins". Sometimes our horses thoughts are in their heads, or 200 yards down the trail, and we have to deal with it. If that requires more bit, then so be it.

And since barrel racing was the subject of the thread where bits were being discussed, here is a video of the Calgary Stampede in 2017. Not a lot of snaffles being used. Guess almost none of them know how to "properly" train a horse to run...softly...


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## whisperbaby22

Yea, I took issue with that trail riding thing. But then I have always just ridden my horses my way, if I have a problem I just work it out.


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## Tazzie

bsms said:


> Dressage riders write about a horse "seeking the bit". As usually described, it comes when the tired horse stretches his head forward. The rider maintains "light contact' because, after all, the horses is "seeking the bit".
> 
> No! Blast it all, that is a tired horse stretching. Being tired, he doesn't have enough energy left to AVOID contact...so he accepts it.
> 
> Seeking the bit is what Bandit does when he is excited (because we are going fast) or worried about something ahead, or just curious about what I want to do next. SEEKING the bit comes when the horse believes the rider has something to say that is worth knowing, so he "asks". I think there is a huge difference between a horse seeking contact, and the rider imposing contact.
> 
> Horses seek contact when they trust their rider. Riders impose contact when they DON'T trust their horse.


So how is it only a trail horse will seek the bit, but a Dressage horse on contact seeking the bit is a tired horse stretching it's neck? The freight train I typically ride who gets MAD if you don't have contact begs to differ that it's only when she's tired. She wants a rein she can stretch and reach into, and if she has to awkwardly reach for it, she doesn't like it. She wants it easy to find. I can, and have, ridden that horse in an open field bareback and in just a halter. But she hates it. She wants a bit, she finds her comfort there, and that is where a lot of our communication comes from.

Being half Arab she is RARELY tired. Me stretching her at the end of the ride is similar to an athlete stretching out after a workout. I have really and truly never made her tired, even riding on contact and her seeking the bit when I give her a bit more rein. I see little use in entirely wearing out a horse. I prefer mine be ready for more, but ending where we are both happy.

Seeing as I started her calmly without force, she trusts me 100% to not put her in a situation that could hurt us. And yet, she is a Dressage horse that is ridden on contact most often in our riding.


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## whisperbaby22

These are just musings that bmsm has about his own riding. We all do our own thing, and ride different horses. I thought the trail riding essay was way off base. But it might work for some. Obviously, it did for the author.


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## Tazzie

I get that. I'm not trying to be rude, just trying to show a different stance on the seeking the bit concept. I feel we can all learn from one another, hence why I wanted to speak up on this. As anyone that has ever ridden my horse knows full well she's not tired. We've actually tossed people on her to learn what a horse seeking the contact is like to ride so they can attempt that feeling on their own horses.


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## whisperbaby22

OK, I do see where you are coming from, and it is good that we all put out our ideas. That's why this forum is so good.


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## bsms

Tazzie said:


> So how is it only a trail horse will seek the bit, but a Dressage horse on contact seeking the bit is a tired horse stretching it's neck?...


I didn't say only a trail horse seeks the bit. I have noticed that what is often described as "seeking the bit" matches my horse's behavior when he is tired, and stretching his neck down and out to stretch his muscles - including when he is bitless.



> "Rollkur, Deep'n'Round and LDR should not be confused with letting the horse stretch *Forward-Down-Out*, chewing the reins out of the hands of the rider, seeking contact with giving reins. That kind of stretching was never intended as a training outline as such, but a mere control of the horse's seeking contact and letting the horse volontarily [sic] stretch, and to be allowed to relax for a moment, and stretch the back, in relaxation. It does not involve any placing of the neck by the rider since the horse is left to himself to stretch down naturally. This position approaches the grazing position, and has the same effect on the back."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good: Stretching forward-down-out, long and low to relax.​
> ::: Sustainable Dressage - Rollkur - How And Why Not? - What? How? :::


I don't think a horse who assumes this posture is seeking to feel pressure on his mouth, versus stretching the muscles of the thoracic sling (that help him to lift at the withers), similar to this diagram from Jean-Claude Racinet:








​
Bandit, with his nervous temperament, will often lift at the withers on his own. But being a small, slender horse, he gets tired eventually, and stretches out and down just like the picture in sustainable dressage. He does it even when bitless, and thus I feel safe in concluding he is NOT "seeking the bit". Just tired of lifting at the withers (with the "spring" that is made up of the muscles in the shoulder - the thoracic sling).

This has NOTHING to do with energy for going forward, or overall tiredness. It is a tiredness that comes from exercising specific muscles against a rider's weight. It is like my shoulders right now, that are tired from doing pull-ups. I don't use those muscles a lot during the day, so doing pull-ups - while it doesn't exhaust me or mean I am generally tired - does tire specific muscles. And stretching tired muscles feels good.

To repeat what I wrote, with added emphasis:



> Dressage riders write about a horse "seeking the bit". *As usually described*, it comes when the tired horse stretches his head forward. The rider maintains "light contact' because, after all, the horses is "seeking the bit".
> 
> No! Blast it all, that is a tired horse stretching. Being tired, he doesn't have enough energy left to AVOID contact...so he accepts it.
> 
> *Seeking the bit is what Bandit does when he is excited (because we are going fast) or worried about something ahead, or just curious about what I want to do next.* SEEKING the bit comes when the horse believes the rider has something to say that is worth knowing, so he "asks". I think there is a huge difference between a horse seeking contact, and the rider imposing contact.
> 
> Horses seek contact when they trust their rider. Riders impose contact when they DON'T trust their horse.


That does not mean a dressage horse CANNOT "seek the bit". But true "seeking" comes when the horse wants to know what the rider is thinking/desiring. That can be done by a good dressage rider. It can be done in a variety of circumstances. If a horse is being ridden in a pattern, and needs to know what obstacle/jump/movement is expected of him next, he might well "seek the bit". Why? Because the rider knows something the horse also wants to know.

But at the time of writing - *and I didn't explain it in my post (my fault & I apologize)* - I was thinking of something I had read (and disagreed with) a few hours earlier, arguing that a horse needs to be taught contact from the very first ride if he is going to be successful in dressage. Remember please, I disagreed with what I read! But what that woman was describing was contact imposed, not contact sought.

This doesn't mean every dressage rider is imposing contact, nor every jumper, nor every English rider. It does mean I believe we need to think about WHY the horse does what it does. The idea that a horse wants to feel pressure on the bars of his mouth for the joy of feeling pressure seems silly. That doesn't mean they won't seek it.

I am mostly a "no contact" rider. Pretty typical of western riding. That doesn't mean no contact. And at times - like in a forward canter, or when we are doing a lot of changes of direction in the arena - Bandit seems to want contact. For good training, be it trail or dressage or anywhere else, it is important that the horse genuinely be seeking the bit - internally motivated to feel it - rather than have it imposed. And the lady arguing that green horses ought to be ridden totally on contact struck me as someone IMPOSING contact.

*When the horse wants contact, it seems pretty rude not to give him some*. But I also find a lot of English style contact excessive, imposed, and out of fear. I once shared this picture of my spooky mare Mia going down the road:








​
I was told that picture showed dangerous riding. That my horse was out of control because I didn't have enough rein contact to be safe riding her in public! And in that sense, I am an unabashed western rider. I don't apologize for believing that contact is NOT something needed all of the time, or even most of the time.

It is part of an individual's riding philosophy. I don't believe dressage is cruel or that people harm their horses by riding that way. I also don't believe that people need to let their trail horses look at things, and I seem to be in the minority of all riders in believing a horse has the right to tell his rider to go to Hades. I freely admit to being eccentric as all get out.

It boggles my mind, though, that people believe we improve a horse's balance by telling him how to move per our standards. And I don't understand why riding with more pressure in the mouth - UNLESS ASKED FOR BY THE HORSE - is in some way better than avoiding it. But that involves MY riding philosophy. I meet or talk to very few riders who agree with my approach. *And as long as they ride happy horses, I'm fine with it.*


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## gottatrot

I think there are many possible reasons why a horse might "seek the bit." 
The horse I am currently working with is built downhill and does not yet have a strong hind end.
What he'd like to do is similar to below.








His initial response to being ridden was to want to lower his neck and let his forehand do more of the work, especially after being ridden for awhile. He also would like to lean on the bit. In the past, I would have thought it was lovely that I already had him stretching down "long and low," that soon he'd develop a strong back due to this posture, and be pleased at the solid feel on the bit he offered. But I don't want to be carrying part of his weight for him in the reins when we ride, and I don't want him to depend on me for balance.

With some horses, it is not optional. I tried often to get my now retired mare to work on a loose rein, and she would always proceed to working heavily downhill. She would balance better with intermittent help from the rider. But although very athletic, she was built asymmetrically and downhill. A very balanced and athletic horse can work and drive strongly off the hind end, making turns and transitions without the help of a rider on the bit. But many horses learn they can use the rider to help with balance.

A horse using the bit for balance is choosing to do so in spite of discomfort, based on his priorities. We know bit pressure is not enjoyable, but it is not necessarily painful. In studies even horses used to bit pressure won't move into bit pressure when given the choice of doing it and having a food reward, or avoiding both the pressure and the reward. But if a horse sees moving unbalanced and moving into bit pressure as both negative things, then the horse might choose to gain the reward of more balance and take the pressure from the bit as well. Choosing a negative to gain a positive (food) is a little different from choosing a negative to avoid a different negative. One negative (loss of balance) might seem worse to the horse. Or the horse might learn that he can use the front end more easily than learning to use the hind.

Other horses seek the bit because that is the only option the rider gives them. I've seen these horses being ridden, and they definitely stretch toward the bit because although constant pressure is uncomfortable, the rider makes it more uncomfortable for them until they do so. Soon it becomes the way they believe they need to move and carry themselves when ridden. I've taught horses this way myself. 

To me, all of that is different from a horse that prefers to be ridden not on heavy contact, but with the rider having a frequent touch of the reins on the bit. It is quite possible to ride where the horse and rider feel each other through the rein, but there is no real pressure being put on the bit. Rather than riding "on contact," it is "in contact." That I believe is something that many horses do well with, as in the top quote. The horse can communicate through the reins to the rider, and this is something I think many horses do seek out.
Probably the rider below has that type of contact.








I don't think studies have been done, but I'm quite positive if a horse had to move into the hands of someone with a "feel" on the bit rather than strong contact, he'd do it gladly for a food reward. 








That's a lot different contact than these horses and riders who are leaning on each other.


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## bsms

whisperbaby22 said:


> These are just musings that bmsm has about his own riding. We all do our own thing, and ride different horses...


I really appreciate this thought. Journals differ from posting on the rest of the forum. On my journal, I can think out loud. It is like discussing riding with a friend over a beer. Very personal. Not judgmental, although the one talking may be making judgments.

When I think out loud, be it horses, politics, where I might want to live next, etc, I often make mistakes. Or say something judgmental, which is purely meant to be how I personally find something. 

For example, my wife and I are discussing moving from southern Arizona to...where? One place that is NOT on my list is Puget Sound. I lived on Whidbey Island for 3 years. Beautiful area. Very fond memories of riding ferries, particularly the one to Victoria. But moss grew on our roof, and I hated LIVING there. I swore I would never willingly live some place I needed to scrape moss off of my roof!

Some of the places we are discussing include Holbrook AZ, Blanding Utah and Richfield Utah. A lot of people would rather be shot than made to live in Blanding Utah. Holbrook AZ isn't a small town because of all the people who want to move there!

The videos gottatrot posts of running along the beach look heavenly, but you couldn't pay me to live there. And if I move to Holbrook or Richfield...I'd be very surprised if gottatrot became my neighbor! These are VERY individual choices. 

Same with how I ride, @*Tazzie* . No one needs to feel bad because I ride differently, or dislike some aspect of what they enjoy. If someone has a happy horse, I'm happy for them. But I may strongly prefer a different approach. On my journal, I feel free to think out loud - to say "_Puget Sound sucks!_" But of course, homes on Whidbey Island are expensive because so many people love it there, while the homes in Holbrook AZ go...somewhat cheaper! :rofl:


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## bsms

​ 
When I rode Mia in a curb bit, my goal was to ride her totally in the "signal" phase of a curb, before I got all the slack out. On many rides, we succeeded. With some spectacular failures, too!

I've noticed Bandit sometimes likes to feel a little contact, even with a curb bit. When the slack is barely out. Particularly at speed. He just seems to feel more "with me". He acts more relaxed. Going down a trail, or a wash, or even twisting between cactus, he seems to find it annoying. Maybe because those are times where there isn't a lot to say? For either of us? But when HE wants to talk...


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## Tazzie

I started Izzie the concept of little contact and allowed to find her own balance. I can walk/trot/canter that horse with zero contact. However, she hates it at this point. I've had to yell at people to either take up more contact or give her all the rein or she's going to get ****ed (she starts her ****y dance). And I now get where you are coming from regarding tiredness, however I take all of that into account too. Izzie is built down hill with MASSIVE shoulders. So my beginning rides when legging her up are short and correct to rebuild that muscling. To exhaust her beyond her capabilities would just create an upset, unwilling horse. I prefer her to continue WANTING to work, and leaving her wanting more at the end of the ride. I get that perhaps you've met or read about a lot of really crappy Dressage riders who force heavy contact and work past the point of muscle exhaustion. But I can assure you that the reason Izzie stretches for the bit at the end of the ride is because she is 100% following that contact out. It's a stretch she likes, but she will reach for that contact regardless of how much rein you give her. It's not a control factor. It's working her where she's comfortable and happy.

I have zero issue with people riding differently. In different set ups and different bits. I have a best friend who rides in bits that make me cringe, which is the nature of their sport. And I have friends that ride entirely bitless. I just don't see a need to bash contact all together because of a few bad eggs. One ride on Izzie would show why you want contact on her. And she's taught quite a few people what it feels like to have a horse on the bit and working over her back as well as teaching a horse to stretch and follow the contact down.


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## gottatrot

Tazzie said:


> Izzie is built down hill with MASSIVE shoulders.


Downhill horses with a lot of front end weight are the ones I've found will tend to choose contact to help with balance. 


Tazzie said:


> I have zero issue with people riding differently. In different set ups and different bits. I have a best friend who rides in bits that make me cringe, which is the nature of their sport. And I have friends that ride entirely bitless. I just don't see a need to bash contact all together because of a few bad eggs. One ride on Izzie would show why you want contact on her.


To me it is just a difference in philosophies. Certain beliefs will make you ride a horse one way or another. The downhill horse I'm riding now would easily learn to go with a solid amount of contact. But my philosophy is that he will get stronger and more athletic by learning to carry himself. When he tries to get solidly on the bit, I bump him with it and make him lift his head and carry himself. Once a horse learns to use the bit for balance, it's difficult to teach them not to. But my mare Halla pretty much needed the bit on occasion to help her, and perhaps this downhill guy will too at times if he can't get strong enough to carry himself through speed work or fast turns. 
That's not wrong, I just would like to see how much he can do himself through fitness before providing him with a crutch.


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## bsms

Tazzie said:


> ... I just don't see a need to bash contact all together because of a few bad eggs. One ride on Izzie would show why you want contact on her...


I haven't bashed contact all together. In the post that originally raised concerns, I wrote (with emphasis added):



> Seeking the bit is what Bandit does when he is excited (because we are going fast) or worried about something ahead, or just curious about what I want to do next. *SEEKING the bit comes when the horse believes the rider has something to say that is worth knowing*, so he "asks". I think there is* a huge difference between a horse seeking contact, and the rider imposing contact*.
> 
> *Horses seek contact when they trust their rider.* Riders impose contact when they DON'T trust their horse.


Although I view myself as a western rider, I'm happy to have Bandit sometimes "seeking contact" - which is, as @gottatrot pointed out, a way of him seeking my thought, of wanting to stay in touch with me. I wouldn't want it all the time since trail riding has a lot he can do independently - and should. But if he has concerns, then when HE wants contact, it means WE are functioning as a team.

Assuming, that is, that the contact is a needed part of our communication. Much of western riding focuses on communication outside the mouth. And while I've tried to simplify my cues with Bandit, the fact that I've ridden him so much means he picks up on cues I don't know I'm giving. One way to preserve the mouth is to use it little. But I don't agree with not using it at all. Although I tend to like bitless, I find Bandit acts better over several rides if he has a bit. Not because I'm intimidating, but because it is an easy way of working together.

Now...would I want contact all the time? No. I'm not in a show ring and we don't do anything requiring sustained contact over a long period of time. And philosophically, I find sustained continuous contact lacking in imagination. When my horse is faced with passing something scary, I get my best results by using almost no contact. He seems to get enough of my thought from my posture, where I am looking, and a flick of the reins - and he seems to need the freedom.

Dressage...I find problematic. The sort of contact used in dressage for things like "re-balancing", "half-halts", and far worse, "Abstossen" - that is 180 out from how I wish to ride a horse. 


> The energy reaches the bit and the horse “pushes away from the bit,” causing the weight to transfer back to an engaged hind foot. Then the forehand lightens. The German word for this concept is Abstossen. When the horse pushes off from the bit, he continues to reach forward, but the energy “bounces off" the bit and transfers to an engaged hind leg that is flat on the ground and carrying weight. Then the horse thrusts again to perpetuate an ongoing cycle of energy.
> 
> The Heavy and the Light, by Lendon Gray, Lilo Fore, and Beth Baumert
> November 2013 USDF Connection


I honestly find that repulsive. Not cruel. Not entirely. But I'd love to know what the horse is supposed to be getting out of being bounced off the bit! It certainly does NOT recycle energy!

Regardless if it is European Dressage or Western-taught 'Body Control', I find the idea that we can help a horse by controlling its body - a body we don't come close to understanding - totally faulty. I've never seen a horse with a rider move with the athleticism of a horse moving without a rider! I've watched my horses playing in the limited area of my corral, or sometimes playing in my extended back yard. For agility, quick changes in direction, turning, spinning, accelerating, covering rocky terrain - I've never seen a dressage, reining or any other ridden event that can match it.

I know some people enjoy dressage. *I think some horses, ridden right, enjoy it every bit as much as their rider*. When that happens, I am happy for both!

But overall, I agree with the assessment of VS Littauer (whose initial training came under James Fillis and the Russian Cavalry) and Gen Harry Chamberlin (Samur, extensive training of cavalry officers, all of whom spent far more time with horses & under expert supervision than almost any recreational rider):



> 1) *SCHOOLING must restore in the mounted horse his natural balance and way of going*, those which he would instinctively use when free, quiet and alert.
> 
> 2) CONTROL should be complimentary to the results of schooling, and promote efficient movement. *Which means that, at least most of the time, the rider must allow the horse to move freely (on light contact) with neck and head extended, not interfering with his natural balancing efforts of the body and gestures of the neck. *
> 
> 3) THE SEAT must unite the rider and the horse, *interfering as little as possible with the horse's efforts to balance himself*. It should not abuse the horse and must give the horse an opportunity to move almost as if free. ..
> 
> ...let me quote from TRAINING HUNTERS, JUMPERS AND HACKS by Lt. Col. Harry D. Chamberlin (English edt., 1946, page 59):
> 
> "As has been indicated, high collection should be undertaken only by finished horsemen. The periods of collection should be very brief and it should be thoroughly realized that all preceding work, done for the purpose of producing calmness through developing a natural head carriage, may be quickly nullified by an inexperienced rider in his efforts to obtain a higher head carriage, more flexion and collection. As a matter of fact many experienced riders, in their efforts to proceed too far in collection and high-schooling succeed in inculcating nothing more than irritability, nervousness, and inability to jump or gallop fast across country.”...
> 
> ...Furthermore, I believe that certain points of artistic riding, like always riding "on the bit," the "half-halts," "full collection" and some others should be preserved only for unusually good riders schooling exceptionally able horses and taking time at it. *In the hands of the majority, attempts to attain the above result in abuse of the horse and, instead of contributing anything for hunting and jumping, are detrimental to both of these games. For efficient riding by the majority a merely "soft contact" most of the time, loose reins part of the time, and always a freely going horse* (if calm and obedient) is much more sensible. - VS Littauer, Common Sense Horsemanship, 1963





> "For the most part, a high state of collection is totally unnecessary, and except with the most finished rider is the proverbial razor in the hands of a monkey." LT Col Harry Chamberlin


IOW, I long ago adopted the approach of Littauer and the proponents of a forward seat and forward system of control. I've modified it since with a more traditional western approach of long legs and much more emphasis on loose reins & self-carriage. And for the vast majority of recreational, part-time riders, I believe the best approach to riding is the least approach.


> . . . the first rule of good riding is that of reducing, simplifying and sometimes, if possible, even eliminating the action of the rider. If the hands are used to turn and check a horse, and the legs to make him move forward and to give him resolution and decisiveness this is enough...
> 
> If natural work is required of a horse [field work] and not artificial [manege work] he will be better able to make use of his impulses, instincts and his natural balance...
> 
> ...the horse who has rational exercise, during which he is allowed to balance himself as he pleases, not being punished with needless suffering, developes in the most efficient fashion, with great advantage to his way of carrying himself, and becomes docile and submissive to the wishes of the rider. - Caprilli


I don't know of any way to reconcile that approach to riding with the approach used in dressage, reining, WP, or any other approach that believes humans know more about how a horse moves than the horse does.


> There is another term which is somewhat more definite a "horseman." The very word implies the cooperation of two beings and it always sounds to me as if it designated some sort of partnership between them, instead of the mere mastery of the one by the other. *To me a horseman is not necessarily a man who uses his aids artistically, but rather a human being who practices his riding on the basis of complete consideration of his mount's abilities and limitations.* If one accepts the term horseman in this sense then a High School rider may be a horseman and may not be; the same applies to the primitive tribesman and the latter, despite the simplicity of his aims, may happen to be a better horseman than an educated rider of the Western world. For instance, a man who cripples his horse in a supreme effort to win in a competition may be considered a sportsman (at least by some), may be a good rider, 'but his lack of consideration of the horse deprives him of the right to be called a horseman.
> 
> Many years ago I heard somewhere a definition of horsemanship which I have repeated ever since. It runs: "*Horsemanship consists of obtaining from the horse the best possible performance, using the least of his nervous and physical energies.*" This definition should be accompanied by the notation that this ideal performance can be obtained only through a happy combination of schooling, control and seat. Hence every rational method of riding consists of a harmonious use of these three elements. - VS Littauer


I don't expect to convince anyone, nor can I say anyone needs to be convinced. Those who do the opposite of what I believe and end up with a happy horse have managed to achieve a good and worthwhile end. But I believe the minimalist approach, with emphasis on self-carriage, is the best approach for the masses - and MY riding is utterly common!

At an absolute minimum, I feel confident in saying that _I_ should use the minimalist approach.


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## bsms

There is currently a thread on extending a horse's trot ( http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/teaching-horse-extend-trot-785530/ ). I'm not going to comment on the thread. Doing so would create a lot of heat and little light. But I think it illustrates why I have a big problem with the underlying principles of dressage, and the idea that we should control how a horse moves.

First, I had to look up what an extended trot meant. It turned out to be close to what I thought:

_EXTENSION/EXTENDED (WALK, TROT, OR CANTER)
At trot and canter, a pace that shows maximum length of stride, frame, and phase of suspension. The uphill balance is greater than in the lengthening pace. The tempo remains nearly the same as in the collected pace._

https://www.usdf.org/EduDocs/Competition/2015_USDF_Glossary_.pdf

"_To get that extension where the horse really sits back and goes slowly while making huge strides, the horse is ridden from behind uphill to the extension. Some horses are by nature born more uphill than others, but you work at it as we discussed, with transitions, building collection, then you can make the horse more uphill._"

The Dressage Basics with Clemens Dierks Part 3 ? The Trot | The Horse Magazine










Steffen Peters on Rosamunde in extended trot. © 2015 Ken Braddick/dressage-news.com​ 
Steffen Peters Performs 1st Grand Prix on Rosamunde for Near 80%, Within 1% of Legolas Score at California National Show ? Dressage-News

Since I've spent much of my life jogging (trotting), let me approach it as a runner, not a rider.

Suppose someone asked me to carry a cute mouse on my shoulder as I went for a jog. And let's pretend I agree. So I jog (trot) along, adjusting my stride to give me minimal overall impact. By that, I mean I balance things like how fast I want to go, the terrain, how my feet feel hitting the ground, how far I expect to keep jogging, etc - all to minimize the total impact on my body. Near the end I may extend my stride to increase my speed because I have energy still to burn and I know I'm near the end.

Me being me, it is pretty unlikely I would choose to expend more energy by increasing how high I go during each stride...but I certainly COULD do that.

But now suppose someone told me I needed to increase how high I go up with each stride, making each stride longer but not substantially increasing my speed. "_Why?_", I ask. "_Because the mouse thought it was fun!_" comes the reply.

I might point out the mouse doesn't know what it is costing me to move that way. Lengthening my stride will cause greater impact forces on my feet, which is why joggers who use a shoe with more cushioning tend to increase their stride length without realizing it. And even if I cushion the impact, 40 years of jogging has taught me increasing my stride length can easily result in sore knees. And meanwhile, I'm increasing my energy use...for a mouse? So I work harder, and do so because the mouse on my shoulder thinks it is fun?

Not being a horse, I'd probably tell the mouse to do his own expletive jogging!

Horses, including Mia and Bandit, tend to be much more willing & tolerant.
----------------------------------
Cowboy, on the other hand...

Yesterday, my DIL tried riding Cowboy in the arena (with Bandit and I). It was the first time in years that Cowboy was asked to work in an arena for more than a minute or two. And while he was relaxed and calm and responsive at a walk, his trot and canter were brutal, with a lot of resisting.

My DIL asked why he moved so much smoother when her husband had been riding him in the desert. I pointed out that her husband first held Cowboy back. When he asked Cowboy to trot or canter, he was asking Cowboy to do what Cowboy wanted to do - catch up with the others! And Cowboy can move fast and smooth. When he wants to.

But he was a free horse that no one wanted at a lesson stable because chubby little Cowboy resents being asked to move fast while going in circles. And the experienced lesson horse in him had learned how to make trotting and cantering uncomfortable to the rider.

Cowboy and Bandit are both fun to ride and quite reliable when they understand WHY they are being asked to do X. If they think X is stupid or a waste of their energy, they tend to think about getting rid of the mouse. Bandit is more willing largely because he has more energy to burn off, while Cowboy is probably around 20 and inclined to believe round is a good shape. At 59, I find myself sympathetic! :cheers:








​
I think there is a good review here:

That Big Trot by Duncan McLaughlin​ 
Not saying it is wrong to ask for a big trot, at least sometimes. I do, and Bandit in particular is often inclined to reply, "Sure!" But a big trot comes with a price, and I think the horse should have a say in it. I also think a horse both understands and can more safely give a "fast trot" instead, with less lift and thus less impact coming down.

Also...I continue to believe that horses like to look where they are going. I have some real problems with any approach to riding that doesn't let them look. Including the idea that horses on a trail ride should ONLY look at their footing.








​


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## bsms

"...To maintain proper stride length, aim to keep your foot strike under your body. When you want to accelerate, avoid the urge to lengthen your stride, and instead quicken your turnover steps....

..."Finding your perfect stride length is a matter of finding the stride that reduces your braking force," Suydam says. "If you land with your foot in front of your body, you end up slowing yourself down until your body weight is over the top of your foot. Reducing your stride length so your foot lands under you reduces that braking force.""

https://www.active.com/running/articles/how-to-find-your-perfect-stride-length?page=1

"The researchers concluded: "Our findings demonstrate that subtle changes in step rate can reduce the energy absorption required of the lower extremity joints, which may prove beneficial in the prevention and treatment of running injuries."Some of those findings: *** As stride length decreased, the runners bounced less, landed closer to their center of mass, and produced lower braking forces against the ground. *** A shorter stride allowed the knee to do less work absorbing energy. A 10 percent higher-cadence stride allowed the hips also to do less work. *** A shorter stride allowed the knee to bend less during stance, and decreased many hip motions."

https://www.runnersworld.com/peak-p...s-that-shorter-strides-can-have-many-benefits

"The findings suggest that increased stride rate (decreased stride length) affects impact peak, kinematics, and kinetics and therefore may be considered as a mechanism with which to influence injury risk and recovery of a runner. Specifically, similarities are seen across all studies, with decreased center of mass vertical excursion, GRF, impact shock and attenuation, and energy absorbed at the hip, knee, and ankle as step rate is increased or step length is decreased at a constant speed."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4000471/

Also see:

https://runnersconnect.net/changing-your-stride-frequency/


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## carshon

This is your journal and it is meant for you to express your thoughts and opinions. I want to just point out that it is not just dressage riders that ask their horses to extend their gait. Whether it be the trot, lope or any other gait. Like you I am a trail rider. The terrains you and I ride in could not be more different. (thank God no cholla cactus here!) But I work with my horse to lengthen her stride to step over obstacles on the trail- much like riders use trot pole spacing. I am not asking her to go faster just lengthen her stride. There are some trails that we ride that are gloriously flat and allow for maximum gaiting - and I want my horse to gait in as smooth and ground covering manner as possible. In order to do this she must make long sweeping strides while engaging her back end and collecting her front. I can tell if she is not engaged as her stride is much choppier to ride. I work with my mare on extending her stride and trying to get natural collection so it helps her engage her top line muscles and use her hind end. Again this is for her own health as well as a smooth ride for me.

I agree in concept that a horse has a say in where they place their feet - but only if that means we are travelling in the direction and at the speed I indicate. To me giving a horse too much say can and will lead to disaster - such as a horse that will take advantage of its rider and turn around, a horse that refuses any obstacle or a horse that acts dangerously when the rider asks for something the horse does not want to do.

I appreciate the articles you post and read them to see other points of view - but I also know that any written word is written from the authors point of view and must be read as such. Research can be found to back up any idea we can think of. I am a firm believer is riding the horse you have - in a way that works for you. 

Thank you for posting thought provoking articles.


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## bsms

It will be interesting to see if these new posts ever appear AFTER the posts made before a week of posting turned into a black hole. However...

My concern is that lengthening a stride is easy to do, but lengthening it without causing harm is much harder. If humans can overstride while running, and only find out years later they have damaged their joints, then what happens to horses who are required to stride longer by humans who cannot feel what price the horse is paying?

I'm confused by the statement, "_I work with my horse to lengthen her stride to step over obstacles on the trail_". ANY horse can momentarily length its stride to clear an obstacle that appears, as can pretty much any runner. But speaking as someone who loves running...if I had a coach who insisted he knew more about what my stride should look like than I could feel, I'd change coaches. Lots of runners now accept the idea that shoes meant to protect us with lots of cushioning can actually harm us, by protecting us from the obvious signs on overstriding (foot pressure) until we suffer from the less obvious but much more serious effect of damaged knees.

"_To me giving a horse too much say can and will lead to disaster - such as a horse that will take advantage of its rider and turn around, a horse that refuses any obstacle or a horse that acts dangerously when the rider asks for something the horse does not want to do._"

Define "too much say". It is a balancing act. Too much say is, IMHO, when the horse is the boss. Too little say, another evil, is when the rider is the boss. And the right amount is when they work together as a team, making "mutually acceptable compromises". When I jog, my body and mind face the same dilemma. My body says, "_Get on a couch, eat potato chips and watch TV_". My mind says, "_Run like the wind!_" And if I want to keep jogging into my 60s, I had better do neither. My body needs to be pushed harder. My mind needs to be told to shut up and back off. Both benefit from finding a middle ground. A compromise acceptable to both.

At least when jogging, I can feel my body. If I take "No pain, no gain" too far, I'll be crippled - but at least I'm the one feeling the pain! But the horse, and only the horse, knows what it is costing him. And when we tell him, "Do X or else", he has no way of understanding the long term costs. He has to choose between pains, and he'll normally choose the lesser short term pain. But at what cost?


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## carshon

But that is my point. Who am I to define to you - what you feel should be the point of compromise? Who are you to define for me what I feel is the point of compromise? We all must ride as WE feel fit. The do no harm concept is subjective - you may not like how I ride my horse and I may not like how you ride yours - but unless it is out and out abuse (and I mean whipping, chemical soring etc) it is subjective.

I work on lengthening my horses stride over long periods of time because I am looking for responsiveness. I work on other things as well because repetition is the key to success with horses. I then use what I have schooled into my horse when I feel the need. I do not feel that a dressage horse or a trail horse being asked to extend their stride for an few passes around an arena a couple of times each week can be compared to a jogger who does this for miles at a time most likely on asphalt or other hard surfaces and sometimes on a daily basis. 

I cannot and will not draw comparisons to how my horse feels to how I feel. These are apples and oranges. If I assume that asking for an extended stride causes future issues for my horse how am I not then to draw the conclusion that riding that horse also causes future issues - and therefore the horse should not be ridden? Again these are subjective to the person handling/owning that horse. 

My hope is that as a horse owner we are also horse lovers and that we would look out for our horses and not cause undo injury - understanding on my part that each person has a different understanding of what undo injury is.


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## bsms

Just tried an experiment. I tried walking in my living room, increasing my stride length while keeping the same pace. As best I could figure it, it meant adding pauses in between my strides, because stride length times stride frequency equals speed. This made for a choppy motion. Very ugly. So to increase my stride length without adding pauses, my stride needs to become much more elevated - to kill time by using the vertical.

If I was carrying my grandson, he might enjoy the result. "Keep going!" But of course, he cannot feel the effort it takes or how a bounding stride affects impact on my feet and legs. It wouldn't be long before he'd hear, "_Grumpy Grandpa says NO MORE!_"

I then checked the mail. Not here yet. My dogs came along with me. I then wondered what it would take to make Sammy increase his stride length without changing his speed. I suspect he'd be puzzled, at first. And then annoyed. And since he weighs 110 lbs and has big teeth, I didn't try to teach him how to check the mail while using his body properly. He is amazingly agile for a big dog...in what sense does he not already know how to use his body properly?








​ 
Proper movement? Or do they need a human to teach them?

It is a fundamental disagreement that I see no way of resolving. I've watched my horse moving freely, and I've never seen a ridden horse match him. No, he doesn't jump a 6' oxer. He would go around. _But if I needed to cover some rough ground quickly, I'd give him his head, try to match his balance, and try to stay out of his way_. I don't know how to reconcile that vision of horses with me telling them how to move properly over simple ground.


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## bsms

carshon said:


> But that is my point. Who am I to define to you - what you feel should be the point of compromise? Who are you to define for me what I feel is the point of compromise?...


I haven't. That is the simple answer. I've been very clear that I am not telling anyone else how to ride.

But I am using my lifetime of jogging to think about what happens to a horse, and to explain both WHY I reject certain things, and to maybe give food for thought to someone else.

Much of "proper riding" is based on humans telling horses what is proper, instead of humans asking horses to tell them what works. Like Caprilli, I reject that in my riding. That is why I have argued Caprilli is as relevant and radical today as he was in 1906. Or Littauer was writing in 1963.

But I haven't told anyone else how to ride. Merely explained why I've chosen the approach I use. And I'm glad I encountered Littauer, and thru him Caprilli, because their arguments convinced me to go the same way. Or at least, similarly. Because they wouldn't approve of all my riding either.

Very individual choice. However, I believe every individual should examine their choices. If it leads some people to stop riding entirely - and it has - I'll respect their decision without following it. Free country!


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## phantomhorse13

bsms said:


> Proper movement? Or do they need a human to teach them?
> 
> It is a fundamental disagreement that I see no way of resolving. I've watched my horse moving freely, and I've never seen *a ridden horse* match him.


There I think is the key. A _ridden horse_ is not the same as a horse at liberty. How can he be with a big old lump of human sitting in the middle of his back (which was designed to handle suspended weight)? There is nothing natural about a horse being ridden. Nothing. But being unnatural is not necessarily bad or harmful.

Example. Imagine you notice something on the floor. You bend over to pick it up, but then realize it was a trick of the light and there is nothing there. You stand back up. Assuming no preexisting conditions or surprise attacks, that whole motion should happen without your feeling any pain. Now this time, you bend over in exactly the same way but pick up a 20 lb barbell. You stand back up in exactly the same way you did when you were not holding anything. Did your lower back complain? Likely depends on how you stood up while bearing the weight.

How did you figure out that "lifting with your legs" was necessary when picking up weight to keep from straining your back? Maybe you learned it by trial and error. Maybe you got lucky and one of your parents had a bad back already so was conscious of your posture and taught you as a kid. Maybe you have a back of steel and can pick things up any way you please and never blink.

I see riding horses in the same way. If we as riders aren't asking horses to do too much while we sit on them (equivalent to bending over without picking anything up), then we can mostly leave them to their own ways. However, if we are going to ask them do to specific athletic maneuvers (big jumps, reining stops, piaffe, etc), especially repeated over time, then they are less likely to hurt themselves if they are using their muscles to keep the most appropriate posture possible, always remembering that big squishy lump of human is sitting up there.

What a rider feels is fair to ask of their horse is a personal decision.. but a ridden horse will never be 100% natural.


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## bsms

phantomhorse13 said:


> ...If we as riders aren't asking horses to do too much while we sit on them (equivalent to bending over without picking anything up), then we can mostly leave them to their own ways.
> 
> However, if we are going to ask them do to specific athletic maneuvers (big jumps, reining stops, piaffe, etc), especially repeated over time, then they are less likely to hurt themselves if they are using their muscles to keep the most appropriate posture possible, always remembering that big squishy lump of human is sitting up there.
> 
> What a rider feels is fair to ask of their horse is a personal decision.. but a ridden horse will never be 100% natural.


If the goal is riding over big jumps, then letting a horse move freely was shown to work better than moving "correctly" a long time ago. If the goal becomes sufficiently artificial, a bunch of really big jumps close together, then as VS Littauer wrote:


> But then there occurred in riding what has often happened before in other human activities - man's ambition to attain the barely attainable took over jumping; it forced many international horsemen to drop Caprilli's method and to search for other, more forcible means of making horses negotiate almost impossible combinations of obstacles. Today many of these horsemen will rightly tell you that Caprilli's basic tenet, that "there is little in common between ring riding and cross-country riding" could be altered to - "there is little in common between cross-country riding and international show jumping.' Show jumping has become a narrow specialty...*Artificial jumping problems, and the corresponding artificial means of solving them, have placed such jumping just around the corner from the tanbark of the circus*. Just as in former days our ancestors admired the particularly artificial feats of High School, so today many of us enjoy a new type of circus - unnaturally high obstacles assembled in tricky combinations... - - The Development of Modern Riding, VS Littauer, pg 252


I would put the same description to both reining stops & a piaffe, although if you want an EFFICIENT, JOINT SAVING stop, then maybe letting the horse stop as it knows is best.

But of course, if reining, or dressage, or western pleasure, etc are one's goal, then meeting the movement required is...well, required. And as long as it doesn't harm the horse, it is no business of mine.

But I do think it is important to remember that in asking the horse to move a certain way, we don't ever experience that movement ourselves - and thus we rarely know what price the horse pays for an unnatural movement.

For example, some time back, I posted the results of a study showing a collected horse INCREASED peak impact forces on the front legs. That bought me a lot of heat, but it makes sense. The horse needs to lift the front to give the feeling of a 'round back' - and that involves tightening the muscles inside the shoulder and using the front legs more like a pole vault.

Horses are entirely capable of doing that on their own. Bandit will do it when nervous. Littauer described dressage as teaching a horse to move like he does when excited, but doing so calmly.

Again, that is fine. Provided we understand the horse is working harder to give a motion we like, and in not moving "better" in terms of what makes him functional. It isn't "better balance". Doing so doesn't teach the horse anything he needs to know unless he is playing the game of a human.

FLIP SIDE: While no horse can move with a rider the exact same way he can without, I think - my philosophy of riding - the rider should try to minimize his impact, and give the horse the smallest challenge possible for balancing with a rider.


> Long years of practice and of continual observation have convinced me that the horse acquires these qualities without effort provided that the rider subjects him to rational and uninterrupted training, throughout which *he tries to make his own actions the least disturbing that he can to the horse*, and tries not to impede him in the natural development of his aptitudes and energies.... By this I do not mean to say that one should let the horse do as he pleases; one should, instead, if necessary persuade him with firmness and energy to do the rider's will, while leaving him full liberty to avail himself of and to use as best it suits him his balance and his strength. From this fundamental and unchanging principle stem all the practical rules of equitation with which I shall deal...
> 
> ...the first rule of good riding is that of reducing, simplifying and sometimes, if possible, even eliminating the action of the rider. If the hands are used to turn and check a horse, and the legs to make him move forward and to give him resolution and decisiveness this is enough...
> 
> If natural work is required of a horse [field work] and not artificial [manege work] he will be better able to make use of his impulses, instincts and his natural balance...
> 
> ...the horse who has rational exercise, *during which he is allowed to balance himself as he pleases*, not being punished with needless suffering, *develops in the most efficient fashion*, with great advantage to his way of carrying himself, *and becomes docile and submissive to the wishes of the rider*.
> 
> ... in order to accustom horses to the field without ruining them and making them bad-tempered, *one must always profit by the natural instincts of the animal substantiating his movements and way of going*, and one must give him the least possible discomfort in the mouth, loins and ribs. One must abolish the forced position of balance, and any action of the horse's legs beyond that which is essential to move him forward. - Caprilli


Now I obviously do not have Caprilli's experience and cannot say if his conclusion is correct. I will say that giving the horse progressively greater challenges, and letting him figure out how to carry himself PLUS HIS RIDER THRU THEM, is an easy way of getting a horse to use his body effectively. Even a very new rider can understand it and practice it, while highly experienced instructors like Chamberlin and Littauer say imposing an artificial balance on a horse only works with extraordinary riders. 

Were they right? Let's just say that in watching top trainers make videos of how to do X or Y or Z, I find Littauer and Caprilli very plausible. And since I'll never be God's Gift to Horses, it is an approach I will use. A man needs to know his limitations, Harry Callahan said, and I suspect horses would be better off if more humans appreciated our own. Certainly it applies to ME.

Two books, both by avid dressage riders, have colored my views. I strongly recommend them both for interesting reading:

Falling for Fallacies: Misleading Commonplace Notions of Dressage Riding by Jean-Claude Racinet

Twisted Truths of Modern Dressage: A Search for a Classical Alternative by Philippe Karl

I doubt either man would be impressed by my riding, any more than Harry Chamberlin (who loathed western riding) or Caprilli (who remained very European in his use of the reins). Both authors love dressage, but they raise questions worth pondering.

PS: I took up running at a time no one in a shoe store knew what a "running shoe" was. A few months later, jogging entered the national consciousness. At the time, few people understood the mechanics of PEOPLE running. A lot of research has been done since. With humans.

We are still in the Dark Ages, in many ways, concerning how horses move. I've got a bunch of books telling us to train horses to turn "straight" but only one (written by an engineer) explains why straight is harder for a horse. And how many people, even now, think a horse reaching under with his legs is balancing his weight more to the rear, when we have good evidence it is not so? Or that horses round their backs, creating a weigh-supporting arch, which is physically impossible for a horse's spine?

I just see no evidence humans understand horse movement well enough to dictate to a horse how the horse should move.


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## gottatrot

Interesting about the running. My uncle was really into the barefoot movement (for humans, not horses), and wore Vibrams. He talked me into trying it but I think it would have taken me a year to get my calves to adjust. 
I've experimented a lot with tempo and forefoot landing, it's interesting how those adjustments can affect us. But I agree, we have input and adjust accordingly. 

Running at slower speeds, is it more efficient for a certain body to stretch out more or increase the tempo more? For me, if I don't increase the tempo I will start feeling soreness in a joint somewhere. Apparently the most efficient runners run at a pace of about 180 steps per minute. 



phantomhorse13 said:


> What a rider feels is fair to ask of their horse is a personal decision.. but a ridden horse will never be 100% natural.


I don't really think of my goals for riding as being natural, but when I look at the evidence with my horses, I can see clearly that things I tried to get them stronger and using their bodies better by enforced posture worked a lot less well than when I was able to get them athletically using their bodies themselves (the rider trying to stay balanced and out of the way).

My goal is to retrain myself to use less assistance and to focus on getting out of the horse's way. 

Here's my mare from when I was doing a lot of work with long and low stretching, and riding on the bit a lot, trying to keep her working from back to front, doing dressage lessons and etc.

Then later after I stopped working her into contact and instead did more athletic work - jumping, long rides, hillwork. Even though I allowed her to use her "natural frame" which is a rather high neck and head carriage, her hindquarters got noticeably larger and more muscular, and her neck did too. 








There is more going on though, which to me is a testament to keep learning, keep reading, keep changing. In the show pic, my mare's left front club was something I didn't know much about, so you see it had a tall heel and was very steep. In the second pic, she has had the hoof rehabbed and can reach forward and step down on the frog due to the lower heel. 
In the first pic, the saddle is too narrow and far forward, my best attempt at saddle fit. In the second pic, the XW tree is probably still a smidge too far forward but allows for her shoulder movement. 

In the first pic, my shoulders are tense, my hands fists trying to keep the consistent contact, my leg is sitting there and pushing the stirrup forward because I thought balance had to do with my "seat." In the second pic, I've learned to put my leg on the horse, and communicate better through the reins. 

Shortly after the first pic, my mare had a meltdown in her class and bucked me off. Shortly after the second pic, we cantered down the beach and had a lovely ride home.
Was I being cruel or harming my horse before the changes? No, but she was a lot happier without all the work on contact and "stretching." 

That is how knowledge and flexibility to new and changing information has helped me so far.


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## bsms

The following comments were made on this thread:

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding/collection-without-bridle-785985/

I'm responding here because I think the subject is interesting, but I also think it has little to do with what the OP of that thread wanted to discuss:



gottatrot said:


> ...The western definition of collection requires that horses use the braking muscles to slow their movement without shortening their bodies. This leads to horses that can do maneuvers such as flying changes in a downhill posture rather than uphill...





Smilie said:


> Not sure where that first pic was taken from, but here is a western riding a pattern, and while the hrose keeps a level topline, I don't see him being down hill doing those changes. Not a big deal, just clarifying what a western riding pattern is...


Not sure "downhill" is always accurate, but the goal is certainly a different approach than dressage. A reasonable example of good movement, defined by WP, can be found in the AQHA Video "A Judge's Perspective 2015 World Show Senior Western Pleasure" on YouTube:








​ 
That is obviously a different goal than seen in this young warmblood being started in traditional dressage. If WP isn't "downhill", it is certainly less "uphill".








​ 
I only took lessons for a short time. Some of the lessons had value, but I stopped in part after hearing an instructor shout, "_Collect his head!_". That is the job of a taxidermist, not a rider!

In reading HF, I hear four elements people associate with collection (apart from 'collect his head'):

Shifting the center of gravity to the rear.

Rounding the back underneath the rider.

Lifting at the withers.

Tucking the pelvis under.​ 
The first two essentially do not happen. As far back at the 1800s, people made calculations about the extent that a horse ridden forward can actually shift its center of gravity to the rear, and the answer is "Very Little" - somewhere around 0.5-1 inch. That is in line with measurements I've seen done with modern instruments. An unridden horse can shift his weight further to the rear, and of course, a horse doing a sharp turn or backing can shift its weight more.

Nor can the back round up under the rider. At best, it may sag less. If THIS doesn't make the horse's back round up, then it ain't going to round up:








​ 
The last two are physically possible. As some one watching videos rather than riding either, it seems to me WP considers collection to be a lifting at the withers, while dressage desires BOTH lifting at the withers AND tucking under with the pelvis. I can see where a WP would be lifting, at least given how the horse is built. I don't see the tucking under of the pelvis.

People tend to discuss the horse 'reaching under' with the hind FEET, but that misses the point. This was Bandit, ridden shortly after he arrived. His hind feet are moving nicely under him for the type of riding we do, but his pelvis is not tucked under and - having been on him when the picture was taken - his back was like an I-beam: braced solid.








​ 
That is part of why I prefer to emphasize a SUPPLE back. You can't see it in the photo, but the wear on Bandit's left front hoof back then showed the force of his foot ran from 1:30 to the 7:30 position - twisted. His back is rigid. He had learned not to slam on the brakes when I took some slack out of the reins, but he was far from soft.

This picture was taken 1.5 years later. He happened to be bitless that day, but many people see this picture and think, "YUCK! Hollow! Braced!" But I was on him, and he was relaxed and moving his back freely:








​
He will never look like either a WP horse or a Warmblood. This is where Bandit comes from, and he's not particularly well bred by those standards either:










Mille Fiori Favoriti: Navajo Nation, Arizona​
And of course, Bandit is hampered both by how he used to be ridden, and by how he is ridden now. My intentions are honorable, but I'm stiff and awkward and do my horse no favors. And the bulk of our riding will always look a lot like this - Smilie's "natural frame", which seems a good description:








​ 
In terms of keeping Bandit sound, or at least not doing further damage, I think it boils down to:

1 - Good trimming and being barefoot has allowed his left front leg to straighten out. I have no idea how much damage has already been done inside his leg, but it won't be damaged that way any more. His front feet have gone from 4.5" across to a little over 5" across, about a 20% increase in total surface area for the foot.

2 - He's carrying 200 lbs total now instead of 250-300 total, and we spend a lot more time walking than running. What goes up must come down, so the easiest way a person can reduce downward shock to a horse's back is letting them walk with long, flat strides.

3 - Don't over do it. How simple is that? Heck, if your horse is starting to drag butt, for any reason, dismount and let him walk without you on his back for a little ways. I see nothing wrong with this when my horse is acting pooped:








​
And I've yet to offend Bandit by doing so! He can be quite energetic, but he also understand the old advertising idea of "Miller Time". Sometimes, horsemanship means more than 'good riding':






PS: I'd like to move closer to the Navajo Nation. It would be windier and colder, but I love the open country in NE Arizona. Almost as much as I love the red rock country of southern Utah. We saw a number of riders when we passed thru last October, and even my wife thought it looked like it would be a fun place to go out for a gallop. It is tough to let your horse stretch out and enjoy a run when you are surrounded by cactus and going over rocks - all the darn time! I love the Sonoran Desert too, but....

PSS: Jean-Claude Racinet mentioned his surprise at how QHs move. When he came to America to teach, he assumed the longer backs and general build would make collection - including his traditional dressage definition - tough. But he said the QH has so much power in its hind quarters that the feel was different from the look. They are never going to be warmbloods, but he said they collected better than he thought would happen - because genuine collection starts with power from the rear. I thought that was interesting. I've had almost no time on back of QHs. Slender Bandit does pretty good for who he is, and I never came close to using up Arabian mare Mia's strength and energy. But they are both more endurance types than raw power types. Just as well, because Mia's spooks were hard enough to ride out without adding any more power!


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## bsms

This is another comment made on another thread that I want to mention here. That is because my response is based totally on Bandit & me and our riding, and may be irrelevant to how other people ride.



Smilie said:


> You just need to stay in balance with the horse, the horse has to keep inside shoulder up, to prevent falling in, and stay out of the horse's way.
> When you are riding one handed, you keep that rein hand where it needs to be,


After close to 3 weeks of getting my butt kicked by the flu or something nasty, I finally got to ride Bandit while feeling good yesterday. My plan was to take him out solo for the first time in 6 weeks or so. But it was Christmas Day, the street was filled with visiting cars, and the 70 degree & sunny weather meant several neighbors were having fun in their backyards.

Fun as in "squealing kids", and Bandit thinks squealing kids and cars parked on the road are both serious threats to the life and limb of horses. So we did arena stuff. Yeah, I was a chicken!

On the whole, Bandit did well. For him. I was using the solid shank curb bit, so riding with one hand. He was full of **** and wanted to move & we did a lot of cantering. And on the whole, he turns better at speed ridden with one hand than when I ride with two. I assume this is because I have to focus on MY balance and MY body, rather than using the reins to try to correct issues my bad riding is causing.

To me, this is a corollary to "_Hand without legs. Legs without hand._" Part of the point is that it becomes easy to cheat, and use the reins to try to compensate for errors that start in the leg. Or in my case, in the poor balance and stiff body that is integral to who I am.

One hand with a solid curb is both easier and harder. Harder because I cannot cheat. Easier because Bandit will reflect the flaws of my riding, and I have to address the flaws instead of applying a bandage.

Not trying to talk about any one else's riding. But that is how it seems to work with me.


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## bsms

From the Over-50 thread. Video moved from the quote to the post so it will preview correctly.



bsms said:


> Beautiful day for riding, but I only got about 3-4 minutes in. Used a "jumping cavesson" for a sidepull today. Bandit seemed a bit awkward when saddling, and felt worse once underway. He shifted into a canter once while the camera wasn't rolling...not a bad canter, actually. But he felt awkward, and the camera made it pretty obvious it was NOT my imagination!
> 
> He's on corral rest now. Maybe he sprained something playing with Trooper yesterday afternoon. The two of them went at it for about 15 minutes, turning the corral into a dust storm, kicking, spinning, rearing, playing Bitey Face, etc. Then relaxed and stood side by side, swatting each others faces.
> 
> Or maybe he rolled on a rock last night or this morning.
> 
> Regardless, he's on rest until he gets better. But for a sore horse, he behaved beautifully today. I think he just wanted to get out an MOVE, even if moving hurt. I've felt that way at times as a life-long jogger, but experience has taught me pushing it will NOT make the pain go away! I decided to post some of the video just to show of what a good-hearted horse he is:







The Dr Cook's bitless bridle arrived about 30 minutes later. I bought a medium. I need to try it on him before removing any tags. I think it will be long enough, but the maximum diameter of the nose piece is about an inch larger than the smallest setting on the jumping cavesson. I think it will just barely fit Bandit.

Don't know if Bandit will like the head-hugging part of the Dr Cook's, but he might. And he was finger light today in the cavesson...for the 3-4 minutes of total riding done.


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## bsms

Bandit is his sidepull, just before mounting.​


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## bsms

Can't remember the last time I rode Cowboy. Not sure I've done it since Bandit arrived. The first couple of times we rode Cowboy, it was in an arena and it was VERY clear he hated being in the arena. So, for 4+ years, he hasn't been ridden in the arena for more than a minute or two.

But Bandit's leg is sore. He's definitely favoring his left rear leg. 

So today I tried riding Cowboy in the arena. He's VERY heavy in the hand. Likes to stop fast, duck his head and maybe get in a crow hop, so one can't just relax. With his low set neck, and very thick neck...when he dives, it helps to have your legs out in front to resist.

And he WOBBLES. Rocks back and forth at a jog like no horse I've ever been on. The 20-30 second mark shows just how much side-side motion he gives - at times.

The positive is that he'll accelerate at the slightest hint. The negative is that you sometimes have to be brutal to get across the idea that whoa means WHOOAAAA!!!! He uses running & turning tight to intimidate his rider, I think. So when need be, I kept one hand on the horn (Cowboy leans, and my shoulders are way above his back) and let him do it. Just so he would figure out it wasn't working. 

With time, I think he could become a pretty soft and fun ride in the arena. However, both son & DIL bounce too much on his back when he goes all out in the arena, and that doesn't give a horse any incentive to get lighter. He also needs a rider who will insist on some things. That describes my son & I, but not my wife or DIL.

It was a fun ride, but short. It was hard on my lower back. And I felt bad for Bandit, who watched from the corral with a "_What am I? Chopped liver?_" look on his face. :frown_color: The squeals came from my grandson, who thinks all horses are "Bandit". The bit is a Billy Allen snaffle, so essentially a mullen.


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## whisperbaby22

Boy he's cute! He does have a bit of a wobble at the jog, I would like that because it keeps my back loose.


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## bsms

He's actually a great little horse. There's no horse I trust more on a trail. But his first time back in an arena in over 4 years...yeah, he wasn't too happy. It doesn't help that my wife & DIL let him get away with a lot trail riding, mainly because you can do this:








​ 
But he doesn't like to be told to slow down, or turn left instead of right. And in an arena, you can speed up, slow down, turn left or turn right - or some variation / combination of those. Left on his own, he'd be content to stand still for 30, 45, 60 minutes. Not an option. But I think with time and some practice, he could be a lot of fun. During the brief times where he stopped fussing, he was quite light. He can even jog without the heavy side-side motion. He's very agile and has a very smooth canter. But he needs to learn: We can do it easy. We can do it hard. I prefer easy, but if Cowboy chooses hard, hard it will be. You cannot make "mutually acceptable compromises" with a pony who thinks he can intimidate you into getting off and putting him back in his corral.

Still, a fun little horse. Fun in the arena too. He has the experience and agility to be a blast...if I can get him to work WITH his rider.


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## bsms

Went back and looked at the video and saw this. Wasn't sure even what happened at the time. I've slowed it down 8-fold, so the entire sequence takes place over 7 seconds real time, and about 1.5 seconds of actual bucking canter. Not very elegant. Won't win me any awards. But he didn't try it again - maybe explains why I was keeping his head up during the rest of the ride.






It was still a fun ride. But it is the sort of thing Mia NEVER tried with me. We've got some kinks to work out, though, for arena riding with Cowboy...:-?


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## bsms

Bandit has been off riding for some time now. He was acting sore on his left rear leg. 3 weeks later, or more, his left rear foot looks like this:








​ 
He moves fine in the corral, chases and is chased by Trooper...but I think he is still tender there. That is how his heel looked after he had a splinter make an abscess for a few weeks, some months back. In this case, I think he smacked himself on a rock...but don't know. May be a while before he is fully up to speed.

I bought him a Dr Cook's bitless bridle after thinking about some of @*Hondo* 's posts. 








​ 
I rode him for 20 minutes a couple of days ago, all at a walk, getting him used to turns and a few stops. Today I rode him for another 20 minutes, with a half-dozen short trots thrown in, and a couple of short canters. Bandit canters very relaxed...but my guess after 2.5 years of riding him is that he wasn't enjoying the cantering. I blame his foot. Didn't seem to mind the trotting. But we still did mostly walking.

Based on 2 very short rides...looking good. People talk about it not giving a release, particularly in biothane. That is true...sort of. It doesn't go SLACK, but I think it releases pressure. And Bandit seems to understand it well. It hugs his face a little, but Bandit used to be ridden in a bosal with a snaffle bit as an emergency brake. He has a lot of white hairs on his face, so I assume the bosal didn't fit too well. The Dr Cook's may squeeze a little...but I think it mostly just stays in place on his face. Much more so than a rope sidepull.

For the most part, he responded just like a snaffle, only without any fussing with his mouth. I think having nothing to bang on his teeth or to hold up with his tongue may be good for Bandit. I'm confident it gives good lateral control. He got a little animated once today, trotting, and I gave about 5 seconds of seesaw to annoy him into compliance. And 3-5 seconds sufficed. He settled. I scratched his neck. And he relaxed.

Far too soon to declare victory. I plan to do at least 4-5 more arena rides...and probably more since I'm not sure Bandit needs to go out on any trails with his rear foot like that. To give the Cook's a genuine, fair trial, he needs to get a SOLID feel for my cues in it before we head out. I've put 3 cones in the arena so we can do figure 8s and LOTS of turns in a wide variety of patterns.

But so far? I'm impressed. He acts like he understands. Being Bandit, and given my riding philosophy, he sometimes says, "_How about turning THAT way?_" - and I may or may not go along. But he's acting relaxed and confident, which is good. VERY relaxed, actually. Given how hard he is to fit for a bit, and that he is now a pretty responsible fellow, this is showing a lot of promise!

Also - rode him slick saddle both times. The second ride, I added the bucking rolls on for a bit of security if things got interesting. Slick forces me to be very aware of MY balance, and I have to use the stirrups in a way to increase my security. It makes a harder ride for me. That's OK. Bandit hasn't exploded in ages, and challenging myself - particularly in the arena - is fine.


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## horseluvr2524

bsms said:


> But he needs to learn: We can do it easy. We can do it hard. I prefer easy, but if Cowboy chooses hard, hard it will be. You cannot make "mutually acceptable compromises" with a pony who thinks he can intimidate you into getting off and putting him back in his corral.
> 
> Still, a fun little horse. Fun in the arena too. He has the experience and agility to be a blast...if I can get him to work WITH his rider.


And therein you have discovered the type of horse I am used to riding. I will admit that at times I had difficulty wrapping my brain around the ideas the arabian and other hot-blooded, forward horse riders would post. I tried the "always be gentle" approach, and to never ever get physical with my mare. This led to all sorts of frustration, dangerous situations, and embarrassment. Once, it nearly caused my mare to be get out on a busy road where she would surely have been hit by a car. I was at the local arena trying to load her into the trailer. Though she had been trailered many times successfully, she was being stubborn and did not want to. I was being gentle and not assertive. She tore the line out of my hands and took off twice, and others present managed to catch her before she hit the road. The third time I snapped the lead to a side ring on her halter and yanked her head in a circle around me when she tried to take off. After that, she loaded fine.

I can, do, and have made "mutually acceptable compromises" with forward, eager to please horses. I've ridden a couple arabs (@gottatrot 's Satin being one), several thoroughbreds, quarter horses, etc. It's TRUE, you really can't push them hard or get real physical with them. The same approach tried on a horse like Shan or Cowboy, Shan almost seems to take it as a sign of weakness or submission and happily takes charge to do as she pleases. One solid correction to tell her otherwise, and she ceases arguing and willingly follows directions.

While sometimes she can still be a bit hard to get forward and active, I would not trade Shan or her personality for anything. After struggling through figuring out how best to communicate with her, she has turned into the most dependable horse I could never have thought to ask for. She's not looking around the corner for the next booger, but ready and willing to follow direction or auto-pilot the next rocky trail or hill. Sure, I occasionally have to remind who's leader, but overall she's great. I sure do love my stubborn, independent thinking horses, and I think once older and mellowed they are wonderful babysitters and throw their whole heart into their job.

There is no other horse I would want in a sticky situation, like the time we were precariously balanced on the edge of the cliff and another horse racing past knocked my mare to her knees. With only a couple inches between us and the ledge, I sat absolutely still and just encouraged her as best as I could with my voice. With great effort, she didn't give up as I feel a lot of other horses would have when faced with exhaustion and injury in such a situation, but got up from her knees and found the strength to climb up away from the cliff and onto safety. I wouldn't trade her for the fastest, most sensitive thoroughbred in the world. She is worth her weight in gold.

Sorry, I love bragging on my mustang. I think Cowboy is this sort of horse too


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## whisperbaby22

I'm glad the bridle is working out for you. I love bridle conversation, and have made my own for years. You really have to try different things to find out what the horse likes.


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## Zexious

Give Bandit my love, and wish him a speedy recovery ):

Glad to hear the bridle is working out! (Most things are a work in progress in the equestrian world xD)


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## Rainaisabelle

Sorry I just have to ask but why would you seesaw on your own horse ? Or annoy him into compliance ? What is the reasoning/logic behind it?


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## bsms

Well, if the horse doesn't want to do what you want him to do, you can either do things HIS way (and I view that as a valid response at times), or convince him to do things YOUR way. 

Bandit always moves fast with his nose out so he can see where he is going - which I like:










In that position, any pressure on a snaffle is applied backwards against his molars instead of against the bars or tongue. So backward pressure isn't very helpful at convincing him HIS answer isn't THE answer. And with a sidepull - and a Dr Cook's is a variation of a sidepull - one again doesn't do much to convince a horse by light tugs to the rear.

So...with a snaffle or a sidepull, slight seesaw motions - moving the bit side to side in the mouth, or moving the head a tiny amount side to side - annoys the horse. "_This will profit you not._" When the horse yields, even slightly, release: "_This will profit you._"

Another term found in books about riding for 'seesaw' is "vibrations".

Like @horseluvr2524 's Shan, I trust Bandit to back me in a tough spot. He's stubborn, and stubborn can be a great quality when things go bad. In both the book and the movie Hondo, the woman tells Hondo he's picked their most stubborn, feisty horse. '_Yes ma'am_', he replies. '_A horse who has some fight in him won't quit me when things get tough!_'

Not an exact quote, but it is something like that. A stubborn horse facing a tough spot buckles down and works harder. But he's also more likely to say, "_I feel like going faster now!_" - and that is OK. We negotiate a lot. But I need to be someone worth negotiating WITH, rather than someone to be rolled over...


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## Rainaisabelle

So you’d rather use force and aggressive tactics then train your horse properly ? I’m not sure where you’re from but where I’m from seasawing is extremely frowned upon as a method of intimidation, force and violence. I’m sorry as this is your journal I shouldn’t be telling you how to do things but this is just really unsettling.


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## bsms

Use force and aggressive tactics? What planet do you live on?

"where I’m from seasawing is extremely frowned upon as a method of intimidation, force and violence"

Then maybe you need to open your horizons. Just what do you THINK I'm doing? Hmmmm???? I'm wiggling the bit with my fingertips! And in the example you are worried about, doing it without a bit! Other than dropping the reins entirely, I couldn't get lighter!



Rainaisabelle said:


> I have a TB and he used to be incredibly lazy even though he was OTT he just had no forward in him whatsoever and I could kick him hard, flap around and make loads of noise and he still wouldn't go forward. I started riding with a dressage whip and once he realized I would go further if he didn't listen to my leg he didn't need the whip anymore. I still carry it occasionally...
> 
> ...Once I got the crop out I never had another problem because he knew I would make good on my cue.
> 
> ...Eventually the horse will realize when you have the whip and you won't even need to use it.


You are giving me lectures on gentleness? I've never touched Bandit with a whip. Haven't carried one in 5+ years. You ride around with a dressage whip in your hand, and a crop, and worry about my FINGERS on a bitless bridle????? Most of my riding is done with one hand and slack reins. But if I have a horse who is resisting slowing down, instead of applying more pressure and pulling, I wiggle the snaffle to enforce the idea that he won't have fun by accelerating. If need be, I would use more force. In a pinch, I would use a Pulley Rein - which is brutal, and I've only used it once - and that was years ago, on a bolting horse who was running out of trail. Beats both of us taking a fall at a gallop! 

But using "*intimidation, force and violence*"? On *BANDIT*? Have you read ANYTHING in my journal? Maybe you need to put your whip/crop down & try an approach to training where "Ask, Tell, Demand" isn't needed BECAUSE one can take a more low-key approach! I can be accused of being too EASY on my horse, but "*intimidation, force and violence*"? *you've got to be kidding!

*I can be accused of being to wimpy in my riding. But "*intimidation, force and violence*"? From someone who gives his horse slack reins to get past scary things? From someone who lets his horse have ideas, and sometimes to reject my ideas? From someone who mostly rides with slack in the reins, and who doesn't OWN a whip or crop, and whose last ride included plenty of one hand/slack reins/bitless bridle? *NO ONE has the right to accuse me of using "intimidation, force and violence" on Bandit!*


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## updownrider

For what it’s worth, I am going to agree, seesawing is one of the least desirable actions someone can take on a horse’s mouth. There are so many other ways to ask your horse to slow down or stop or listen to you. Never have I been instructed to seesaw, even if I had a horse taking off on me. To me, vibrations on the reins are more of a thought rather than an action, and that is because I already have a hold of the reins. I might slightly milk the reins, but it is so subtle it would never be confused with seesawing. Seesawing is a visible action, vibrations are not.

I hope Bandit heals quickly. I wonder if it’s the best time to try a new bit when a horse is sore. Bandit’s not at peak performance level because he’s not at his peak physically. As always, best of luck to you both.


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## Rainaisabelle

I’m sure you’ll find most people will agree that seasawing is something so undesirable that even they wouldn’t do it to their own horses. Have I used a whip on my horse? Yup, am I ashamed? Nope. Mostly because my horse listens to me without the need for seasawing. Sorry if you don’t like my opinion just trying to stop you from possibly ending up in a cactus one day when you do it to the wrong horse.


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## tinyliny

Moderators note:

This is a personal journal, and as such, falls into a unique category as to acceptable posts . Here is the beginning of the 'sticky' that describes this approach for journals:

PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING

The Journal section of the forum is a place for members to chronicle their personal journey with horses and with life. 

More so than a query thread posted in other areas of the forum, discussions that occur in this area are in the control of the Journal owner as they can set the direction, topics and tone. Things such as advice and critiques should come about by request only and may be best posted on a separate thread in an appropriate area of the forum. 

While participation in this section is open to all members, please be aware that the forum’s Conscientious Etiquette Policy will be strictly enforced.

the full information can be found at this link:

http://www.horseforum.com/member-journals/please-read-before-posting-714522/


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## tinyliny

I'll have to agree that see-sawing, as most people think of it, isn't a normally advisable part of riding. Certainly my dressage teacher never advocated it.

However, I do not think bsms was really talking about SEE-SAWING. I think he was talking more about 'tickling' the bit, side to side. (or rather tickling the reins on the bitless bridle).

Yes, he WANTS to make it uncomfortable for the horse. The horse has an idea about how he wants to go, and bsms has another idea he'd like the horse to consider. He could FORCE the hrose to lower its head. He could goose if and ask for more forward, and the horse might lower it's head. He could bend it into a circle and wait. Or, he could make having it's head up high uncomfortable, and reward the smallest change. To call that violent, or intimidating is really going overboard.

it's one way to get a horse's attention. Once you've broken the horse out of his fixed thought (I've got to keep my head up and and stargaze! . . . or, I've got to run off!"), then you can start to access them and approach with more standard aids.

I've seen riders use a tipping of the hrose's head to one side, then the other, then back, then back, . . in a gentle way to gently break up a brace in the poll, laterally. what happens is that the horse will release that brace, a bit each time, and the head will come down and relax. I'm not sure if you'd call that see-sawing , or what, since the person holding the rein gives a small reward after each turn of the head.

to me, real see-sawing is sort yanking, and does not even attempt to time a release with the horse's compliance to each side.

But, back to bsms's idea about using an annoying action as a training approach. This is NOT violent, or cruel or bad. It's actually a perfectly acceptable approach. For example. . . harkening back to a Warwich Schiller video I saw . . . when the horse turns away from a spooky object, the rider lets him, but the minute the hrose is turning away from the ST (scary thing), the rider makes that choice uncomfortable, by using annoying flapping of the leg on the horse's side. It's not a severe punishment, just something that the horse would rather stops. as soon as the horse turns toward teh ST, the annoying stops. Horse soon learns that he CAN turn away from teh ST, but it will be annoying. (profit him not). So HE choosed to go back toward the place where the annoying thing stops.

While I don't have the issue of a stargazing horse, I could see using a flapping of the rein, or a tickling of it , or a bumping to make that uncomfortable so the horse looks for another choice.

personally, I would use a more solid contact, such that the horse pushes into the contact on his own, creates his own pressure, and can more easily find the release. However, if a hrose could not figure it out, I might stir things up a bit by some kind of rein movement that was not steady, not inviting of a horse to meet it with a brace.


Everthing that I've ever read about bsms's horses leads me to believe that they are very well cared for and treated fairly and compassionately.


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## bsms

updownrider said:


> For what it’s worth, I am going to agree, seesawing is one of the least desirable actions someone can take on a horse’s mouth. There are so many other ways to ask your horse to slow down or stop or listen to you. Never have I been instructed to seesaw, even if I had a horse taking off on me. To me, vibrations on the reins are more of a thought rather than an action...but it is so subtle it would never be confused with seesawing. Seesawing is a visible action, vibrations are not...


Thanks for the healing thoughts for Bandit. Right now, he's acting so relaxed in the Dr Cook's that I'll keep trying it...once the wind dies down in a few days. The main sign something is off to him is his lack of enthusiasm for accelerating - although he will, easily. Just doesn't seem thrilled, and his foot gives him good reason!

What follows is not directed at you, _updownrider_, or at any one person, but may explain some of how I choose to ride. Others can and will choose otherwise...but I will NOT accept charges of abusing my horse!

As for seesawing, much of my reading comes from the 1920s - 1960s. Seesawing was used interchangeably with vibrations by Harry Chamberlin and in the Cavalry manual he largely wrote. That manual borrowed heavily from Baucher. Racinet wrote about his surprise at reading the US Cavalry manual and finding direct translations of Baucher. But that isn't too surprising, since the 1912 US Army manual on equitation was a direct translation of the French, and since Harry Chamberlin was a graduate of Samur.

When I "seesaw", you aren't likely to see it. If the horse takes the bit in its teeth, that is another matter. Then you WOULD see the side to side motion to break the bit loose. But my seesawing is done with my fingers, primarily my ring finger and pinkie finger. 

English riders may take offense at what follows, but oh well. Here are some quotes on rein and hand (fist) use:



> In its function as a regulator of pace, the hand can be compared to the nozzle on the end of a garden hose. When the rider does not take up the contact (loose rein), it would be the same as completely removing the nozzle from the hose; *the water, not being restricted, just falls out*....
> 
> ...The rein aids must be transmitted though a continuous contact; never from a flapping, slack 'wash line'. The softness, elasticity and sensitivity of the contact originates from an entirely independent upper body and is transmitted through *SUPPLE, RELAXED SHOULDERS, ELBOWS AND WRISTS TO WARM FRIENDLY FISTS.* (Such as a friendly handshake between people.) The limp, opened little hand, that holds the reins toward the fingertips, is to be avoided.
> 
> The Dressage Formula, Erik Herbermann
> 
> Any attempt to influence with the reins can only be made sensitively if a soft contact has been established between the hands and the horse's mouth. *A slack rein means that swift movement with it will inevitably have the effect of jerking the horse on the mouth*....A passive maintaining of the rein tension on both sides or on one only in which *the fists remain still.*
> 
> Riding Logic, W. Museler
> 
> What is correct contact in dressage?
> 
> In the most basic terms, contact refers to the situation in which the reins are stretched in a straight line between the mouth of the horse and the hands of the rider with no loop. As an observer, a correct contact looks like this: The line from the rider's elbow (which should be held above her hip) to the mouth of the horse should extend unbroken...*Many riders try to have what they consider a very light contact by opening their fingers in the piano position. But instead of having a light-feeling contact, they have almost no contact or no feeling.*
> 
> https://dressagetoday.com/learn-by-levels/dressage_correct_contact_051310-12409
> 
> *In dressage we ride with a closed fist. Believe it or not, this is the kindest way to ride for the horse’s mouth.* It allows us to feel more nuanced pressures and forces us to remain elastic and giving with the major giving joint of our bodies – the elbow...
> 
> ... It is a common misconception and leads some riders, in a effort to be kind, to ride with the previously mentioned opened fingers. Your finger joints should not open. *It is the elasticity of our elbows and somewhat in our shoulders that allows for a giving hand.* In dressage, but also in all riding, there are some parts of our bodies that are responsible for stabilizing and other parts that are responsible for movement. The key to riding well is knowing which parts are your mobile parts and which are supporting those mobile parts. *Your fingers are not one of the ‘giving’ portions of your position.* While you might supple a horse with your wrist or even by squeezing your fist, you do not reward by spreading your fingers open.
> 
> https://dressagedifferent.com/2013/07/29/anatomy-of-riding-the-hands/
> 
> The Dressage Fist: No Jazz Hands Allowed!
> 
> My recent lesson learned is that your hand should become a part of your rein. *This means that all fingers are tightly closed on your rein in a way that it cannot be pulled out by your horse* (I am so guilty of letting my reins get gradually longer). To Rheirattack a loose hand means very little to him, in fact I think it almost confuses him. In fact at the recent Robert Dover Horsemanship Program in Wellington Robert went as far to say that “*Elasticity comes from the elbow. An open finger is not kind, it allows the contact to be inconsistent and unfair.*”
> 
> https://dressageaholic.com/2015/01/15/the-dressage-fist-no-jazz-hands-allowed/


To which I reply, "*Would you hire a heart surgeon who planned to wield his scalpel with giving elbows and supple shoulders, or would you want him to manipulate the scalpel with his fingers?*"

It is utter drivel to pretend our elbows are as sensitive as our fingers, or that our fists move as lightly as our finger tips! Just as it is drivel to pretend a horse's speed will "fall out" the front unless contained. And if I needed to hold my reins in my fists to keep my reins from being pulled out of my hands, I'd quit riding all together!

When Bandit and I are in synch, he'll turn if I look longingly in a direction. He slows at a whispered "Easy" and accelerates at a kiss. Maybe 10% of the time, I'll need to follow up a kiss with a squeeze of the calves...but I really don't feel a need to take lessons in lightness from anyone who carries a crop to enforce their leg. I realize I can afford to take this approach because we spend so much time at a walk, and my horses ENJOY a chance to accelerate. If I used them for sport, I'd have different demands.

But since I ride for the pleasure of my horse's company, I can afford to take my low-key approach. Doesn't mean others are cruel, mean, domineering jerks or bad riders. Just means my low goals allow me a lot of latitude, and I take it. But again - I will NOT ask for lessons in lightness from anyone who needs to carry a crop!

As for slowing...that may take more effort. Bandit was brought up for racing in relay races. He mostly now understands I'm not interested in racing. If we open too big a lead - about 100 yards - then he'll often slow on his own. Good horse! But if he does revert to his racing days...we won't be in synch.

Same with turns. Sometimes he wants to go right instead of left. Sometimes he REALLY wants to go a different direction. That is OK. Sometimes I'll say, "_We can do it your way!_" He knows the local area we ride in. If he wants to take trail X, or leave the trail...that may be fine by me.

Or not. And if not, then I might become very directive. Same with Cowboy. Cowboy is an excellent trail horse. But he is very opinionated, and very willing to take over. And when that happens, be it Mia or Cowboy or Bandit, then I will get bigger. I might even use my fist on the reins until we've come to an agreement! As I wrote about Cowboy, "_We can do it easy or we can do it hard. I prefer easy, but you can choose hard if you wish!_"

But frankly, I prefer that to riding hard all the time. If you need gloves to spare your hands, or ride with fists to prevent your horses from snatching them out of your hands, or if you never give your horse slack reins in the open because you are worried about what he will do - then don't talk to me about riding light. 

This is a few months old, but it is where we ride and how we ride. As always, Bandit & I are in the lead:






*For emphasis: I am not attacking how anyone else chooses to ride.* Compete in any sport you wish. If you AND your horse love dressage, have at it! 

I realize my goals are low and relaxed, and thus my horses don't need to stress much either. Horses seem to genuinely understand moving as a group across countryside, often at a walk. Accuse me of having low goals if you wish. Accuse me of being a wimp on my horse if you wish. But do NOT accuse me of dominating my horse, intimidating my horse, or controlling him through pain!

Tom Roberts wrote of two fundamental principles of training. I'll quote him here because almost every challenge one faces on a horse can be dealt with by following these two principles:



> I'll give you another chance: “Why do you jump up instantly if you sit on an upturned tack or drawing pin?”
> 
> If you answer again: “Because it hurts” - you really do need to read every word in this book!
> 
> The horse stops – and you jump up – not just because it hurts, *but to stop it hurting. By no means the same thing.*
> 
> And there isn't any doubt: if jumping up didn't stop the pain, you would try doing something else. So, too, eventually, does the horse. These are not trick questions. If you really believe in and act on the answer you gave to the first, then you think that all you have to do is to hurt your horse's mouth and he will stop.
> 
> On the contrary, the important thing is to let him know – to teach him – how, by doing what you want of him, he can avoid any pain, irritation, inconvenience and discomfort the bit (or whip or spur) might otherwise cause. Good trainers do everything they possibly can to avoid hurting the horse or even letting him hurt himself. Our real goal should be never to have to hurt our horse.
> 
> Reward and punishment is often cited as the secret of successful horse training and undoubtedly both rewards and punishments have their place. But – we should seldom, if ever, resort to punishment when teaching our horse anything new.
> 
> Punishment, when we use it, should be reserved for exceptional occasions. Don't think “Reward and Punishment.”
> 
> Encourage and discourage is a better guide, as it drops the term “punishment.” When riding a young horse we alternate from encourage to discourage very frequently and quite often change from discourage to encourage several times in a matter of seconds.
> 
> But the term “discourage” still has the drawback that it can include punishment; and we should discard any term that could include punishment as a normal training procedure. Punishment and teaching are “divorced.”
> 
> It is to avoid using any expression that could possibly include punishment as a normal teaching procedure that I suggest you think in the terms:
> *“That will profit you – that will profit you not.”*​
> These terms mean exactly – exactly – what they say.
> 
> “To Profit” is to benefit or gain: to be better off. The profit to the horse can be any reward or encouragement the trainer may think his pupil should receive – and it must, of course, be available to give.
> 
> “To Profit Not” means that the horse will gain or benefit not at all. Just that. It certainly does not mean that he will suffer a loss or be worse off – as he would be if he were punished.
> 
> This is what is so important about these expressions – and why I use them. By no stretch of the imagination can “Profit you not” be construed as punishment.
> 
> It consists of *withholding any gain*, reward, encouragement and profit. That, and only that.
> 
> *Quiet Persistence*​
> “It will profit you not” means that the horse will not be encouraged to follow a line of conduct other than what we have in mind for him. We withhold any gain – which means we quietly continue with our demands, whatever they may be.
> 
> We persist. We quietly persist with our demands.
> 
> *This gentle discouragement of “quiet persistence” is something that horses seem to find irresistible. Whenever you are in doubt as to what course to follow, mounted or dismounted, revert to “Quiet Persistence.” Your quiet persistence is the real “That will profit you not.” It discourages the horse without punishing him.*
> 
> Punishment does have its place in the training scheme, with some horses more clearly than with others – but even then it should be used only occasionally. Do not revert to punishment when you are trying to teach the horse something new. It upsets the horse and destroys the calmness so essential to his taking-in a new lesson. So punishments are “out” when teaching any new lesson.
> 
> - Tom Roberts, Horse Control - The Young Horse


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## bsms

Perhaps my all time favorite picture of Mia. Not the best fit for me or where I live, but a wonderful horse:








​ 
When I can cue my horse with my pinkie, I don't feel ashamed of anything. Others have different needs and goals, and that is OK. Mia on a good day was spectacular, and it looks like her new owners are having a lot of good days with her:








​
Neither picture describes how everyone else wants or needs to ride. But there is nothing wrong with it, either! And yes, I still miss her. And I still understand her life is better now. Perhaps my best defense is her new owner (since spring of 2015) thinks Bandit looks happier here than before.

He & I are trying new things. Maybe he's ready for a jumping cavesson, or a Dr Cook's. Maybe not. But it is worth a try:


















I heartily approve of using bits, but will also be happy if Bandit and I can find a way to stop using them...


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## whisperbaby22

Boy, one thing I have picked up from the internet is that people would tear me apart for my tack, riding, etc., so I rarely comment. I do answer questions about things that I feel I have some experience with, but even here on HF I have gotten flack for my comments. I just ignore that, and respond to people who really want to know what I have to offer.


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## gottatrot

whisperbaby22 said:


> Boy, one thing I have picked up from the internet is that people would tear me apart for my tack, riding, etc., so I rarely comment. I do answer questions about things that I feel I have some experience with, but even here on HF I have gotten flack for my comments. I just ignore that, and respond to people who really want to know what I have to offer.


Everyone has something to offer, even if it only shows a perspective that someone else might want to avoid. Too bad it can seem so critical. 
It seems a better approach to just try to counter facts or state reasons for why your opinions are different rather than using personal attacks. 
@bsms has described his horse interactions as horse-centric, thinking of their safety and mental well being. I think he is one who has described more than most how to consider the horse's opinion, to err on the side of giving the horse the benefit of the doubt. Also he has persisted with sensitive and difficult horses, riding them out in terrain where he can't just let them burn off energy by running them for awhile. Yet the horses have become better trained, more accepting, and those are all signs of great tact and timing. I also would defer to his experience on how to deal with horses in that setting if I were to ride there, since I don't have a good concept of the hazards of that terrain. 

Agree with @tinyliny that personally, I would consider the term "see saw" as one that could be misconstrued. Similar to the long discussion in another thread about using the term "round." It also brings up a mental image for many people of someone hauling on one rein, then the other. This is something I've seen only in beginner riders when a horse goes too fast, and they either pull straight back and up on both reins, or else see-saw the reins back and forth. It's not so much abusive as it is just not very effective, and very easy to show people a better way once they have a little balance in their seat.

This is @bsms' journal so not the place to say "you're using the wrong term." So I'll just say that I personally avoid it because it makes me think of the above scenario. However, I've heard people use it and they simply mean they are contacting one side of the bit or bridle, then the other. This is something I rarely do, but I believe that's because I'm not very ambidextrous. If I need to have a horse listen up, I usually focus on one side of the mouth for a little while and then the other. It is easier for me to control the pull and release on one side than to switch back and forth. Probably that's also been engrained in me from dressage lessons. 

But I've been reading lately about how many top dressage riders have been revisiting Baucher's ideas about jaw flexions and/or jaw releases, and many people say they really work to get a responsive horse that is not locked up or braced anywhere. Although seesawing brings a different image to mind for me, what @bsms is describing is more similar to jaw flexions or what I've also heard termed in some english lessons as "sponging" or "vibrating" the bit.


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## bsms

> Lt Col Harry Chamberlin on "seesawing" or "vibrations"
> 
> "Vibrations" to relax the jaw are executed as follows: the snaffle bit is worked back and forth through the mouth by a soft, sawing action on the reins. This sawing, or vibration, is produced by closing the fingers of the right hand, for example, while the fingers of the left hand simultaneously relax to let the bit slip an inch or so through the horse's mouth, toward the right.
> 
> Then smoothly, slowly, without delay, the fingers of the right hand partly relax, while those of the left close and slide the bit back toward the left. The wrists may assist the action of the fingers, by bending inward and upward, so that the palm of the hand turns toward the rider's chest.
> 
> Vibrations are usually executed with a snaffle bit, and the reins remain lightly stretched, the hands careful to avoid any abrupt or harsh effect on the mouth. Allowing much slack to exist in the rein creates a jerky, irritating effect, which causes immediate stiffening, rather than decontraction of the jaw.
> 
> With a little patience, this gentle sawing, effected by the fingers on the stretched rein, will cause a horse to relax his lower jaw muscles and open his mouth. It is undesirable to force the mouth wide open; it should only open part way. A rider not accustomed to this work, and whose hands are not trained to feel when the jaw yields, should watch the horse's mouth in order to see when it opens. The opening should be INSTANTLY rewarded by ceasing the vibrations, and a momentary decrease in the tension on the reins. The cardinal principle of instantaneous reward for obedience applies.
> 
> At first, this exercise should be executed while the pupil is at a walk or slow trot, For two reasons it will expedite the softening of the jaw, in many cases, while moving on a circle of about ten yards in radius [_Note, about half the width of my arena_]: First, it facilitates seeing the horse's mouth, since his head is turned slightly in on the curve over which he is traveling. Secondly, in order to keep the horse on the circle, the action of the inside hand will dominate. Where one hand acts more strongly than the other it favors a quicker response to the vibrations than when the two hands act evenly, as when moving on a straight line. After rewarding the horse for softening the jaw, the exercise should be repeated at short intervals of time. - "Riding and Schooling Horses", pages 106-107, *1934*


I'm not quite enough of a Baucherite to be convinced that flexing the jaw is the key to overcoming resistance. However, a couple of years ago, Bandit got excited and started a strong canter down the paved road in our neighborhood.

I didn't want to get into a fight with him. I wanted him to yield, but without strong action from my hands (or elbows, or shoulders, or back). I was trying to avoid using a curb bit to get the point across, and was actually using my Billy Allen D-ring, which is essentially a mullen snaffle. I wanted "_to avoid any abrupt or harsh effect on the mouth_" while still getting the point across in a way where we would slow before needing to make a 90 degree turn on paved road at a canter.

I suppose I have no business arguing equitation theory with Harry Chamberlin (or Baucher). But my OWN theory is that a snaffle just works better when moving a little sideways in the mouth, back and forth, about an inch of rein movement each way, than a snaffle pulled back against the lips. Certainly when dealing with a horse who looks ahead when going fast - which I strongly desire. I ALWAYS want my horse looking where he is going! He can look at his toes when the farrier is here!

I had tried some of what Chamberlin wrote in the arena, but now I was trying it on an excited horse cruising down a paved road. And it worked.

Instead of creating resistance, and getting him to stiffen his neck and fight back, he thought momentarily about fussing...then dropped to a trot. We could make the corner at a trot, but a repeat of the little wiggling, back and forth motion, and he was down to a walk. Without a fight.

I've used some variation of it many times since. Chamberlin said if practiced enough, you could get the horse to relax his jaw without any vibrations. Maybe. Just haven't done it that much. After all, most of our riding is done with ONE hand on the reins, and slack. Outside of the arena, I rarely take all the slack out while using two hands. 

But...it worked. Then, and many times since. I think it causes a mild annoyance in the horse's mouth. Not a sharper pain, like pulling hard. And not something the horse CAN resist with a stiff neck. A stiff neck will not, in any way, gain him relief from the annoyance. He can stiffen all he wants, but "_This will profit you not!_" 

And using one hand, I can often get the same effect by bring my hand back 1/2", then back forward, then back...not exactly a "bump" but shifting the bit 1/2" repeatedly forward and back, 3-5 times in 1.5 seconds. Kind of "_Hey, Hey! I'm still here, how about taking some advice!_"

Now go from a snaffle to a sidepull. What will pulling straight back win you? Pretty much ZERO. It won't give you any leverage. The Dr Cook's probably would squeeze more, but I think confining a horse creates tension. Part of why I reject trying to contain a horse between the aids. My horses don't like feeling trapped. So instead of pulling back on the reins, I see-sawed. Or used a gentle sawing motion per Chamberlin to get him thinking about slowing without resisting - and a horse who chooses to resist in a sidepull can do so with ease!

Not sure it really is a jaw thing because it seems to work well in both the jumping cavesson and the Dr Cook's. Regardless, THAT is where I first read about sawing on the reins. I admit I'm nearly 100 years out of date on the fashion of equine terminology. I also have ZERO to do with showing, and have never seen a new rider on our horses try to jerk a horse around side to side. Just never seen it. Not in all the times we've had new or very occasional riders ride with us. Maybe that sort of temper tantrum is more likely among competitors. Part of what we try to convey to inexperienced riders riding with us is that we want to ride WITH our horses, and that we want the horses to enjoy the rides too.


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> I also have ZERO to do with showing, and have never seen a new rider on our horses try to jerk a horse around side to side. Just never seen it. Not in all the times we've had new or very occasional riders ride with us. Maybe that sort of temper tantrum is more likely among competitors. Part of what we try to convey to inexperienced riders riding with us is that we want to ride WITH our horses, and that we want the horses to enjoy the rides too.


Maybe the imagery I gave was wrong for what I've seen with newbies "see sawing." I don't think they were trying to yank the horse from side to side, but more like they just didn't know what to do with the reins, and since it's kind of natural from what I've seen to just pull your elbow straight back and/or to the side while holding on to the rein, some beginners seem to pull back with one, then the other trying to slow the horse. Not like they're upset but just clueless about how to tell a horse to stop. Then an instructor (or onlooker) will say, "Don't see saw," and teach them how to move their hands up and down the reins, to keep their arms next to the torso, and make less exaggerated motions.

My personal experience with see sawing: 
I have found it is the only thing you can do if a horse is running with the bit clamped in his teeth. You basically have to force it out of whichever side of the jaw has a weaker grip, so yanking hard on each side separately will hopefully knock it loose. I'd heard the term "bit between the teeth" and somehow I seemed to envision the horse doing something with the incisors, but when the bit is in the teeth you immediately realize what you're feeling, how strong the horse can clamp down those molars and jaw muscles and that you're in a pickle. 

The other time I have used see sawing is with a horse that had balked and I thought I could get him going if he would take a step. In that case I was trying to force the horse off balance enough to take a step by pulling him from side to side, until his balance was affected and he moved a step (it did work). 

I wanted to comment earlier on the Dr. Cook and the release it gives. I think the biothane releases faster, and there is enough release for most horses to feel comfortable. Where it hasn't worked for me is where the horse is claustrophobic, but then there is a time where the horse is excited and wants to rush off, and you need to keep putting pressure on the reins over and over. That is where I think a non-tightening type head gear or bit can be better if the horse is claustrophobic, because it can work them up quickly if you keep squeezing their face and can't provide a long enough release. In those cases I would usually clip the reins and nose ring together so it was now a sidepull, which seems to be more of a tolerable constant pressure when needed.



> I suppose I have no business arguing equitation theory with Harry Chamberlin (or Baucher). But my OWN theory is that a snaffle just works better when moving a little sideways in the mouth, back and forth, about an inch of rein movement each way, than a snaffle pulled back against the lips. Certainly when dealing with a horse who looks ahead when going fast - which I strongly desire. I ALWAYS want my horse looking where he is going! He can look at his toes when the farrier is here!


I agree, to me a snaffle works better (or any broken mouthpiece) when used asymmetrically. Whether you use just one side or go back and forth.
Your discussion makes me wonder again why nosebands are used in dressage. Everyone talks about the jaw relaxing and giving, and it seems to me that if you wanted the horse to be most likely to give the jaw, you would not put any pressure around the nose. I've seen horses reluctant to graze with a noseband on, and felt the pressure when a horse opens the mouth even with a loose one. It seems to be a pretty universally accepted principle that a horse is not really giving unless they give with the jaw, and the nose position has nothing to do with it. So it can be difficult to see if a horse with a noseband on is giving with the jaw. I don't think salivation is enough proof, because excess salivation can be seen with discomfort or lack of ability to swallow.


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## whisperbaby22

Yes biothane is more forgiving than leather, therefore works better in a crossover. It's kind of rubbery, and does not "set" like leather. Which makes it very easy to keep looking new, because any time you put pressure on leather it's apt to leave a mark, and also why it sometimes makes using it in a bridle more difficult. Since it doesn't "bend" I have to try different ideas to get the bridle to work. 

And I have old photos of the Spanish Riding School horses in full bridle and no noseband. And beautiful whiskers, too! (Hate the shaved look of show horses.)


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## bsms

gottatrot said:


> ...My personal experience with see sawing:
> 
> I have found it is the only thing you can do if a horse is running with the bit clamped in his teeth. You basically have to force it out of whichever side of the jaw has a weaker grip, so yanking hard on each side separately will hopefully knock it loose...
> 
> ...I agree, to me a snaffle works better (or any broken mouthpiece) when used asymmetrically....It seems to be a pretty universally accepted principle that a horse is not really giving unless they give with the jaw, and the nose position has nothing to do with it....


I've only truly had a horse get the bit between its teeth once, with Mia. That felt more like using a hammer to break the bit free.

For side-side effects, take a jumping cavesson as an example: 








​ 
It gives good lateral control. If you want to pull a horse's head to the side, you can. Lateral flexions work fine with it. VERTICAL ones do not. I suppose if one combined with with a martingale - something I've never actually seen in use - then one could replicate the pressure it takes to get a vertical flexion while standing beside the horse. But when your hands are above the withers, and the horse is excited, options are limited. Most pulling will just pull the noseband back up the face.

The Dr Cook at least tightens and isn't likely to climb the face. But it certainly cannot affect the jaw, and doesn't have much to soften the poll. When Bandit is cruising along like this:








​
even a snaffle doesn't give a clear cue to slow - when pulled back. The sawing Chamberlin spoke of stays effective without using more than my fingers. When I can convince a horse to slow using two fingers/hand, that is '_light_' enough for me. 

However, wind gusts of 35 mph yesterday and today mean I won't get much chance to try it out. Between wind and work, it might be next week before I get another chance. Jan-March is a tough time to ride, given the shorter days and the winds. So...try to keep Bandit's bad foot clean. A few more days of no riding won't bother him too much.

PS: My son fed the horses breakfast and cleaned the corral this morning. Bandit got to eating standing with his hind feet inches apart on some poop. My son tried pushing him from the side, but no go. So he took the poop fork, standing well behind, holding it by the end in case Bandit kicked, and slipped it oriented vertically between Bandit's legs. He said Bandit didn't look up, flick an ear..."_just spread his legs like a suspect on a cop show_". Didn't raise his head out of the feed bucket while my son pulled the poop back. A fellow needs his priorities, you know...


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## updownrider

Bsms- thanks for your novel, I mean explanation :wink: If you go back to what I believe was my first post in your journal, I mentioned allowing your arms to follow Bandit’s mouth at the canter and keeping your arms relaxed. It’s post #1005. We had a nice conversation in the following posts. I’d quote it here but I’m using my phone which is my not favorite way to post or read forums.


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## bsms

If anyone ever wants to feel humble about riding, I suggest taking a video, slowing it down, and watching yourself ride in slow motion. OTOH, if you want to feel better, download a video of a top rider and slow IT down!

The video below comes from some cantering on Bandit on 25 Aug. I've slowed it down by a factor of 4, so we're cantering in quarter time. In terms of rein use, my GOAL was to have just a tiny slack all the time. If I succeeded - and I did not - there would be just a little slack present all the time. That would indicate I had followed his mouth perfectly.

As I watch it, I see it varying between a little slack and straight. I'd say my problem is that I'm trying to FOLLOW his mouth, but I need to ANTICIPATE his mouth.

Thinking about it, doing that isn't likely to ever happen with me. I just don't spend enough time cantering on Bandit. And in the open - which is the whole point of what we do - the varying terrain and footing would make concentrating on the reins...imprudent. So more recently, I've been trying to keep more slack in the reins, and almost never take it out.

I'll say this in my favor - Bandit doesn't mind. And since there is some slack with almost every stride, that means there is very little pressure being applied even when the reins straighten out. It is uneven, which I dislike. But the reality is when highly trained competitive riders ride with contact, the contact varies in pressure from 2-6 lbs steady state. I've seen no readings that indicate ANYONE truly rides with soft & constant rein pressure. People THINK they do. Heck, _I_ think I can, but the instruments - and my varying reins curve - says it doesn't happen.

That is why I plan to move my riding to loose reins even when cantering. Bandit used to speed up if you gave him slack, but he hasn't been doing that lately. As a training goal, I think any trail horse needs to be able to canter on slack reins and rate himself. If you need to use the reins to adjust the flow of water in the hose, rather than allowing the guy at the faucet to regulate it, then the rider is doing what the horse should do.

BTW - the best way to judge would be to watch the movement of the shanks...which DO move, and that MUST come from my hand not matching his head. But the shanks are rarely clear, so the reins are an OK substitute. And of course, if we make the transition to bitless, then 'contact' would largely be meaningless to use both.

Also...the last couple of months, I've been working on sitting up straighter. It doesn't come easy to me due to my stiff lower back.


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## updownrider

^that is the video I congratulated you on. In my first post to you the day before this video was taken, I suggested you lengthen your reins. 

Bandit is such a nice horse. How is his foot?


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## bsms

His foot is healing, @*updownrider* . It will take a little while to grow out and come off, but he's getting better. And he IS a nice horse. He sometimes gets irritable, but I increasingly believe he sometimes hurts himself playing in the corral and then just doesn't feel good about riding. As I type, my lower back is sore. Not entirely sure WHY, but I'm feeling it. Even if it was beautiful out right now, I wouldn't be enthusiastic about riding!

I think Bandit has days like that, but he can't tell me "_I did a lot of rearing at Trooper earlier today and over did it. Now my back is sore. Can riding wait until tomorrow?_"

The lessons I took on western riding some years ago were of variable quality. There are a number of things she taught that I dislike. But some of what she taught has worked very well for me. One thing I liked was that her goal was to be 1/3 as subtle and aware as a horse before she died - and that she wouldn't achieve her goal. A part of the rider's life that never ends is developing an awareness of what the HORSE feels and thinks, and drawing it out of them so we can act on it. Maybe people who grow up around horses pick it up easier - although I've met plenty of long-time riders who were totally deaf to their horse!

But when you start riding at 50...well, I'm a few months from being 60, and becoming as aware of my horse as my horse is of me will NEVER happen. Like the instructor, I won't live long enough to be 1/3 as aware of them as they are of me. 

But horses remind me of when I travel in a foreign country. If I TRY to speak the language, even just a few halting words, the natives tend to be very forgiving. If I just blast along expecting the natives to learn English for me, then things don't go so well! Horsemen use phrases like, "_Reward the try_". I think they LEARN that from horses, who are very good at teaching us using things like "_Reward the try_" and "_This will profit you, but this will not_" and "_Quiet Persistence_".

My family recognize Bandit is the Corral Clown. They also realize he is the smartest of the three, and that he is very good at training his humans...and more than once, I've looked at him and thought he was laughing inside.

PS: I think the rein lengthening, which I'm trying to do, boils down to a trust issue. Bandit merits the trust. I struggle with giving it to him. And he "quietly persists", waiting patiently for me grow up to his level.


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## whisperbaby22

Boy they sure are pretty when they're slowed down! I read somewhere that until moving pictures came along, no one was really sure how a horse galloped. That's why some of the old hunt painting masters showed the horse at gallop with both front feet way out in front.


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## updownrider

How is Bandit?


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## bsms

Thank you for asking, @updownrider. It is growing out and he shows no sign of pain while moving around the corral now. I haven't ridden him for the last 10+ days. I've been busy and haven't had a lot of time. The weather hasn't cooperated - lots of "winds 20 gust to 35" days lately, including the next 3 days. And it won't harm Bandit any to have some healing time.

MAY try a short ride this afternoon. If so, I'll get a picture. I think he would ride fine now, but I also think he is one of those who would ignore pain in exchange for a chance to get out and move around. I haven't even looked at it the last couple of days since he was moving fine in the corral.


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## holdyourhorses

I'm mostly a lurker (I think I've posted once since 2015) but I wanted to say how much I admire your riding philosophy and the way you've trained your Bandit. I've read your whole journal and it is so refreshing to see someone actually care about what the horse has to say and trains/rides accordingly. I know there's more riders out there like you, but from my experience they are the minority. I grew up showing Paints at the breed level so I've seen the way those horses are trained, and as you know, it isn't pretty. Just wanted to give you a thumbs up and let you know that you have my support. Happy trails!


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## bsms

Rode Bandit today for 30 minutes. Didn't get a picture, but the split in his heel has migrated down to the frog. I expect the flap to come off sometime in the next couple of weeks, or when the farrier comes. I think it still annoys him, but he doesn't act like it is painful.

Don't think I had more than 15 minutes saddle time tops in January, so today was really our first time riding since he hurt his foot at the end of December. I decided to try the Dr cook's, and am glad I did. For the most part, he acted just like I was using the O-ring snaffle, only more relaxed.

He is very herd-bound now, which I expected. Haven't had him out by himself in 3-4 months. We went just a little way down the paved road and he got nervous. Not worried about himself, but very mindful of Trooper - who was racing around the corral, screaming. Two homes are for sale near me, with For Sale signs waving in the wind. I really don't like picking a fight with my horse, and REALLY don't like to push it on pavement. So we did approach & release, riding toward it until the tension rose in his back. Then I'd stop him, count to 10, then turn him around. By the final time, we got to the For Sale signs...with Trooper squealing bloody murder. Each time we walked back.

Gotta admit I didn't feel like I had any less control of Bandit in the Dr Cook's. If anything, I may have had more. He seemed a little calmer. Let him eat a wad of dried grass a few times, strolling along afterward while he chewed and swallowed - and I think he appreciates being able to eat freely. I did try a little 'see-sawing' to remind him I was there as we approached the evil signs...and he acted the same as he would with a bit. "_I know, I know...but Trooper is scared and the signs are strange and Trooper NEEDS me to take care of him!_"

Felt good to be on him. We did a couple of VERY brief canters, but I think pushing forward caused the split in the frog to dig in. He moved very nicely but lacked enthusiasm. He was much happier trotting, me in two-point and him with nothing in his mouth. Wish I had someone to take a video, because it felt like a VERY nice trot.

Good to be riding again, even if briefly. And I'm feeling very good about the Dr Cook's right now. :cheers:


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## bsms

Short update...been working and haven't ridden Bandit since my last post. I have one day a week off, and it has either been 30+ mph winds, or rain. Had this morning off...and it rained all last night, then snowed this morning. Snow isn't sticking, but slick caliche mud everywhere.

Bandit's foot has healed. It grew out and the farrier trimmed the last bit off last week. Just as well since he is slipping around in a muddy corral right now.

Broke down and ordered a 16" Abetta saddle. Stateline has them for $420 in a black 16" SQHB version. Ordered it this weekend, but they haven't shipped yet. I like the 15" Abetta, but I feel it leaves me too far forward in the saddle. I'd like a bit more room and to start further back for the shoulder-dropping turns. The good news about working long hours is I made enough to pay for the saddle during a 2 day period at work. My wife took the news surprisingly well, saying I was working enough hours to justify getting something just because I wanted it.

The horses look miserable in the corral, though. I think Bandit REALLY needs to get out, but sliding around in mud wouldn't do anything good for either of us.

On the days that I've had daylight, my wife & I have been walking in the desert. Met some dirt bike riders a week ago who do 50-70 mile rides. They also grew up with horses. They pointed out a trail that would quickly lead us to a wash/dirt road that runs for miles, and has a number of 1/4 - 1/2 miles stretches good for a horse to canter. It is by far the best place I've seen for riding a horse - and it was only about 400 yards from where I've ridden/hiked before. But you can't see it until you are almost on top of it. Without the dirt bike riders, I would never have entered that section to explore. Pays to be friendly to other people! 

We're looking forward to trying it out when things get more settled. Maybe in a couple of weeks.


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## bsms

The 16" Abetta finally arrived, getting here a few hours before we got back from vacationing in Sedona. Tried it on the saddle stand, then put it on top of Bandit with a thin blanket. It felt better than the 15" to my rump on the stand. On him, it seems a little flatter front to back, which is a good thing. The tips of the bars flare too much in the front, but that is vastly preferable to flaring too little. So I put a pad on him, pulled the tags, and mounted up.

Bandit hadn't been out of the corral for a week & the winds were 20 mph gusting to 30 mph. Add in a neighbor cutting some metal pipe, and he was bouncy a few times - not bad, although we did do a right lap in a left canter when the saw attacked the metal pipe. 

That was good because I wanted to see how it would feel. And it felt really good to me. Like every other saddle I've tried on Bandit, it is not a perfect fit. But I think it is good enough, although it will require more than 30 minutes of riding to know! Like the 15", it has more of an "English" feel to me. It is 3/4 rigging, which I prefer to 7/8ths, and the tree is small enough that I'll need a bigger cinch to get thing just right.

The tree bottom is about at the red line. The match isn't perfect and I'd like a little less flare:








​ 
His back looked fine at the end of ride, but 30 minutes isn't a good test. Still, it felt stable and easy to ride doing a counter-canter and during a few Horse-Decided stops.

Video from Sedona after we hiked to Submarine Rock. The grandkids were with us so no strenuous hiking allowed. My youngest took the second part of the video:


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## gottatrot

The end of the video is very cute.
What a beautiful place!


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## bsms

I think my youngest daughter & I will try to go to Sedona in summer and explore some of the hiking trails. It hits 100 there and most tourists avoid the summer, I'm told. But 100 degrees feels pretty normal to my daughter & I, and it IS a beautiful place.

Got a 15 minute ride in this morning. It was about 30 degrees colder than the other day and the wind was still blowing, but a ride before church seemed like my best bet - however short.

Forgot to take out the cleaning brushes, but I knew I'd be lucky to get in a 20 minute ride and Bandit was relatively clean. Still, he hopped sideways twice in the 3-4 minutes it took to saddle him up. Once for someone walking their German Shepherd past, and once for...????? But I certainly didn't have time to lunge him, nor would I choose to do so anyways.

Not surprisingly, the first 10 minutes of our 15 minutes was kind of bouncy. We got some sideways hops in, and a good, fast lap at a canter - the German Shepherd again. Or the cold. Or the wind. Or whatever. We did a number of short canters (120 feet max) straight up the middle, and he sometimes turned at a canter (dropping his shoulder) or dropped to a trot in the turn. Regardless, the rough nylon of the seat and fender was very grippy. I can see how it might be annoying on a 3 hour cruise ride, but it was wonderful for a somewhat jumpy horse. Very easy to stay with him. 

It also is a very narrow western saddle. Underneath the leg, the width measured straight across the skirt is 15" instead of 18". On a narrow horse like Bandit, it allows me to have just nylon fender between my thigh and my horse MUCH sooner. That adds to the secure feeling and was one of the things I always liked about English saddles.

The last 5 minutes, Bandit was starting to settle. But we quit because I needed to get him back in the corral and get off to church with the family. Fortunately, or maybe by design, the church I go to is quite content with folks wearing jeans and smelling a little of horse. The deacon who died last year had his own ranch in Montana for a number of years, and a current deacon is the guy who spent 50 years raising and working horses and who told me to ditch my snaffles and just use a low-port solid shank curb - advice which which I ignored, although it isn't entirely wrong. He's in his 80s now but always enjoys talking horses. 

And one old lady (80?) in the church once pointed out a long scar on her arm. In a quivering voice, she said, "_Got that when I was twelve and my horse reared up and went over on me! My Dad looked at me, said he told me to give the horse slack, then put the horses away before driving me to the doctor!_" So...if I'm a bit "horsey" when I get there, this is Arizona and many in the church are older than me and most seem to use it as an excuse to talk about horses.

The afternoon was warmer, but thick with clouds and very windy. Glad I rode when I did. 15 minutes is still 15 minutes better than no minutes!

PS: 17 lbs is very noticeably lighter than 30 lbs when swinging a saddle up and over a back! His OR mine...


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## bsms

I came across this quote from Les Vogt. I'm not too fond of some of his teaching, but I liked this quote:

"After almost 40 years working with horses, I've figured out a few things. Mostly, I've learned that horses aren't so different than people. They can frustrate us, deceive us, and disappoint us, but they should never make us mad. As with humans, every interaction with a horse is a negotiation, and if you learn to negotiate, you'll get more done with less effort- I can't make a horse or person do anything, but I can sure make them wish they had! And, like people, horses do best what they do easiest. Life is much more pleasant when I remember that horses and people are after the same things- good food, good times, a meaningful job, and comfortable companions."

About Les


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## whisperbaby22

Well said.


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## SueC

_Amazing_ landscape on that film! Gorgeous colours and shapes. Is it often cool enough to go climbing where you live, or do you usually have to get up early in the morning to do it? (heat-intolerant person speaking)


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## bsms

Highs in Sedona were running around 70-80 degrees while we were there. Last full day, a cold front came in and it tried to snow. But in summer...highs will be 100 in the afternoon. It doesn't bother me, but not many try hiking during the summer afternoons.

Finally got Bandit out briefly in the desert today, first time since December. The Abetta felt good. Our route takes us past a house that sold in January, and now has two horses living there. Bandit was fairly tense, and one of the horses was trying to rear...in an open stall about 20 x 20 feet. But Bandit didn't lose it, and the grippy Abetta was good for confidence.

A short time later, there was a plastic bag along the trail. As we got close, it tried to attack. Either that, or a small gust of wind blew it toward us. I backed Bandit a little - figured it might as well be my idea since he was about to anyways - then pointed him to some open ground between the plastic and cactus. And he went. Good for him! And once he decides to take a path, you don't have to worry about him backing down. In his own, cautious way, he's a brave horse.

Just a very short ride out. He did very well in the Dr Cook's, at least as well as he would have in a bit and maybe better. He may be one of those horses who will end up better off bitless. He is not a bolter. He also doesn't like feeling he is being forced to do things. And once it becomes his idea, he is a determined horse.

May be another month before I have time to do much riding. My DIL has been a good riding companion but she had an operation for goiters in her neck. It was supposed to be a 1" cut and an hour operation. Turned into a 5" cut across the base of her neck and a 6 hour operation. She is healing fine, but we joke that no one can touch her head or it will fall off and roll across the floor. She asked the doctor and was told it would be at least a month before she could ride horses.

PS - The new horses are on a lot with ample room for a corral, but are kept in side-by-side pipe stalls, about 20 x 20 each. Dry lot horse keeping is unnatural enough. Mine don't have much room to roam, but they at least get to to interact with each other. Maybe the owners plan to expand later on, but...I don't understand. Maybe they can't mix. The one horse was rearing and calling out when he saw Bandit. Maybe they get aggressive with each other. But still...I don't understand.


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## SueC

@bsms, I'm not sure if I asked this before because it's been such a long time, but do you ever take a dog on your solo rides and if yes, does that reassure your horse? (was just reading the top post on this page)

I do all my trail riding solo since we moved "out here" and once I got a dog who accompanied me four years ago, my horse was far less likely to bother about wildlife rustling in the bushes. The dog always runs ahead and the horse seems to feel she's "onto it". It's funny that such a small kelpie can have such a significant effect. It's not like the two are "buddies" in real life, but he definitely likes her to accompany us! When she's not with us, he's definitely more wary.


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## bsms

I wish I could take the dogs with me. I can see where the horses would come to accept their company if only as creatures with excellent senses of smell and hearing who could 'scout ahead'. But we have to go on roads through a neighborhood. Leash laws, and a number of neighbors who would report us for violating them. 

I would also need to train the horses to leave the dogs alone. Trooper is an ex-ranch horse. His previous owner strongly suspects some of the sheepherders who rode him also had the dogs chase him, although he never caught them at it. Bandit has been used to chase coyotes. Mia seemed to like dogs, but she was the only one. The couple of times Bandit has seen loose dogs while riding, he shifted into 'fight' mode.

OTOH, Bandit is no fool. If I could convince him our white German Shepherd was useful for finding threats and giving warning...Bandit would accept him. But I don't know how to get him from thinking 'threat' to 'scout'. And...I also have this vision of our large white dog racing back towards us with a bunch of angry javelina hard at his heels....


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## bsms

Ought to mention that when I rode Bandit the other day, my DIL was walking Trooper along. After a few months in the corral together, Bandit is herd-bound. When I went to get him today, Trooper moved to the gate and wanted to come out with him. And for the first time, Bandit nuzzled Trooper's neck as I led him by - the first sign of affection for another horse I've ever seen in Bandit.

So today's ride was to start, like every spring, getting my horse to think about going out alone. The problem is the paved road and neighborhood we have to go thru to get to the desert. I suppose I could lead him to the desert, but I rode him along the pavement, then turned back, then tried again, riding a little further, then back, etc.

I think this Abetta is going to be my saddle for life. I'm a saddle snob, but this $400 saddle is the first western saddle that just lets my leg flow around my horse. The seat is grippy, I can feel my leg beside my horse, and it just fits my butt. You cannot get more low-brow in a saddle. And I've never felt more comfortable and secure.








​ 
The previous ride, I used my white foam insert to lift the front. But it looked like Bandit might have some rub marks in the loin at the end of ride, so today I went without. Looks low in the front, but it felt balanced - and at the end of ride, every hair along Bandit's back was smooth. No sign of any rubbing. Bandit moved freely and showed no concern. By the end, the new Alpaca cinch had become loose, but Bandit didn't seem to notice. Neither did I. That's a good sign. Feeling free to ride with a looser cinch is a very good thing!

The Dr Cook's...well, at the finish of the ride, I put Bandit's snaffle and curb bits aside. The Cook's now sits in pride on the bridle rack as Bandit's bit & bridle. On the whole, _he is easier to ride and guide in the Dr Cook's than in his bits_. Enough said. Just before mounting up, he looked...ready to fall asleep :biggrin: :








​ 
Meanwhile, Trooper worked much harder during the ride than Bandit did. He would start squealing and racing around the moment we left the arena. He worked up a good sweat today. Bandit was dry. And while Bandit wasn't EAGER to leave the arena, he behaved and gave me a good faith effort.

I've concluded the mark of a good rider isn't how well they control their horse, but how well they motivate him. VS Littauer defined effective riding as moving in fluid balance with the horse. I think I define it by how successful I am at keeping my horse with me mentally and emotionally. When we are one mentally and emotionally, balance is a piece of cake! I'll also admit that it is hard to imagine selling Bandit after a ride like today's. He's a good hearted fellow. Maybe we'll get old together. We'll see.


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## tinyliny

It's interesting to see that abetta sit like that. I have a friend who wants me to trade my synthetic Big Horn for her Synthetic Abetta (that one you have). But, her's sits like that in front; down a bit. I also did not like the way the fenders sort of 'catch' on the D ring (for the cinch). So, I didn't even bother to ride in it.

I like that " the mark of a good rider is not how well they control the horse, but how well they motivate him".


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## bsms

I find the fenders do catch a little on the D-ring - which is a HUGE D-ring. But I often ride with my legs far enough forward that the fenders are already past the rear lip of the D-ring. It definitely looks down in the front, but if I slide my hand under, the front of the tree is flaring away from the horse. The test of any saddle is in the riding, and so far at least, the Abetta looks like a winner for both Bandit and me. But I'll need to have more time free for riding to test it on a 2 hour ride to know for certain.


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## SueC

bsms said:


> I think this Abetta is going to be my saddle for life. I'm a saddle snob, but this $400 saddle is the first western saddle that just lets my leg flow around my horse. The seat is grippy, I can feel my leg beside my horse, and it just fits my butt. You cannot get more low-brow in a saddle. And I've never felt more comfortable and secure.


I have a Bohemian little secret this past fortnight. On the farm I usually walk around either in farm boots or in comfortable old trail walking shoes with worn-out profiles - still good enough for the farm, when I need new shoes for walking trails. And I do often ride in the farm boots, which are steel caps but similarly cut to the Aussie-style short riding boots with the elasticised ankle, when I happen to be wearing them, rather than change into the "proper" riding boots.

About two weeks ago I found myself about to mount my horse but, "Oops, still got my walking shoes on!" Then hopped on anyway. And oh my - it was sooooo comfortable for my feet to ride in these; like they were in personal clouds. Also they gripped the stirrup much better, so less risk of losing stirrups around hairy bends or when wildlife appears suddenly. As they are low-cut and come off easily, no risk of getting trapped in the stirrup in a fall. So I've been riding in them ever since; I just can't go back to being less comfortable... I wonder if I can find a pair of foot-supported, cushiony, Cloud-9 type "proper" riding boots for more formal occasions...

Comfortable is sooo nice... and so necessary for riding, too.


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## bsms

Finally got a ride in on Bandit. Didn't know my DIL took a short film. These 60 seconds were during the first few minutes. For a horse who has been cooped up in a corral a lot the last few months, Bandit was pretty calm. Something interesting I noticed - when Bandit is coming toward the camera, look at how close his feet are. His legs angle in and his actual track is very narrow:






Viewed in slow motion, it looks like he actually swings his leg out a little to miss the foot on the ground, and then back in. His front left and right feet are probably landing in a straight line with each other. More so at the trot than in a canter.


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> I've concluded the mark of a good rider isn't how well they control their horse, but how well they motivate him. VS Littauer defined effective riding as moving in fluid balance with the horse. I think I define it by how successful I am at keeping my horse with me mentally and emotionally. When we are one mentally and emotionally, balance is a piece of cake! I'll also admit that it is hard to imagine selling Bandit after a ride like today's. He's a good hearted fellow. Maybe we'll get old together. We'll see.


Very nice to hear how you and Bandit are working well together. Agree very much with motivation rather than control. Sometimes the motivation is also motivating a horse not to do something such as kick you, rather than just positive fluff all the time. I guess one approach I have is to make the majority of time spent with a horse positive, rather than never doing anything negative. Such as today when I spent probably two minutes being firm with Rascal, telling him to not jump around, not paw or kick, and the other 28 minutes walking, grazing, telling him good boy, etc. 

I don't think letting a horse know your expectations must be negative, per se, because they don't really know you don't want them to bump into you or grab their hoof away when you pick it up until they try it. So motivation can involve correction too. But it's not a battle, it's not control, it's showing the horse that the easiest route is working with you, letting them know what you don't want them to do, and then being trustworthy so they soon understand that you really do have their best interests at heart. That's when they'll start giving you more of themselves and find it interesting to work with you.

Bandit does seem very narrow. I've seen a couple horses that were limited athletically by being too narrow to the point of actually interfering in front. However, some horses seem to learn to move in order to compensate, and can be just as athletic with different builds. It's that unknown factor that can be tricky when buying a horse. I watched some videos on buying Thoroughbreds and they basically said some that seem put together funny become amazing athletes with long careers, and some that look perfect end up having issues. I believe that is the same with most breeds. So how do you know? I guess I haven't had to figure it out recently since horses seem to come to me instead of me going out to find them. :smile:


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## bsms

Bandit in slow motion, approaching. Not the finest quality, but it reveals his foot-fall pattern...yeah, I'm a geek:


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## SueC

That's interesting, @bsms - I could see it so much more clearly in the slow-motion version! It's almost like he's on a catwalk! 

A lot of geldings are narrow because gelded very early, which is why many in the racing fraternity around here like to put it off until the horse has developed his chest some more, at 3-4 years old rather than as weanlings / yearlings. Chest development is in part a secondary sexual characteristic, like in human males, and goes best with normal testosterone levels in the growing years. (Mares actually have more testosterone in their blood than geldings do - so less likely to be narrow. Testosterone is a key hormone in both sexes, although commonly thought of as a "male" hormone only.)

Your horse has learnt to get out of his own way, and it's great he's not hitting himself. A lot of West Australian endurance horses when I was competing were slightly cow-hocked, my mare included; and when you filmed their action their hind feet described an arc horizontally that brought them to land outside of, and past, the front hoof still on the ground, so that the rear hoofprint would be half a foot to a foot (as in the measurement) in front of the front hoofprint. This stopped the horses from stepping into their own front feet, and allowed them to use their hindquarters to great propulsive effect. Amongst the harness racing fraternity these would be described as _passing-gaited_ horses, as opposed to_ line-gaited horses_ which have front and rear hooves following the same lines. A lot of passing-gaited harness racers aren't cow-hocked, but I have wondered if the genetic tendency in some Arabian endurance lines for the rear feet to turn out slightly came with a specific advantage - in harness racing, the passing-gaited horses are usually faster trotters, i.e. it's more biomechanically efficient as a gait. Effortless long-striding trotting is a huge advantage for an endurance horse.

Since I too am a geek, I would be interested to know if, on his front feet, his outside hoof wall is, in your estimation, the same length as the inside hoof wall, or if one is a shade longer than the other...


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## bsms

Here is a picture of Bandit's front left foot from today:








​ 
I'd guess the inside hoof is a little longer than the outside, but not by much. If I get more riding in, our time on pavement will auto-trim things to adjust for his movement. That might provide more insight. He's had VERY little riding the last 4 months!

So worked today on getting him out alone. After 4 months of being inseparable with his 'herd', he's herd-bound. Gotta expect it, though. It would be unreasonable to expect a horse who has spent virtually all his time for 4 months in a corral with his mates to feel good about going out alone. Particularly with Trooper squealing like he was dying...

Adjusted my stirrup a hole shorter today. I like long stirrups, but I often have to reach with my toe to keep the stirrup on. That doesn't bother me as much as it does some. My boots have good heels and the home position means the fender is already wrapped around my lower leg. This felt a little tight to me, but I don't think it is too short:








​ 
I'm thinking about trying English stirrup leathers with the Abetta. Don't know if it would work, but I'd love to have the easy adjustment and finer-tuning that I can get with English leathers.

A couple of pictures from my wife and I walking on the "Arizona Trail" yesterday morning. My camera is dying. It has banged around too much and the lens is getting stuck a lot. The pictures I tried today with Bandit mostly failed because the camera won't focus. But this is a nice time for the Sonoran Desert:


















​


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## bsms

My DIL & I took Bandit & Cowboy out today. Trooper got HIS exercise racing around the corral & screaming.

Mixed feelings on the shorter stirrup length. Think it will be fine IF I learn to ride with some bend in my leg. Bandit was fairly tense for 15 minutes, then less tense. After he blew a big wad of snot out his nose, he settled into an almost unflappable horse. "Boogers on the brain" are a huge source of tension and silliness in horses. 

*I swear, Bandit gains 10 points in IQ every time he blows his nose!* 

Made me wonder...if I fed him Mucinex 15 minutes before a ride, could I start off with a smart horse?

My DIL had an operation last month to remove goiters in her neck. Ended up with a 5" cut across her neck, and the 1 hour operation turned into a 6 hour one. May have saved her life, though. Some of the growth is stage 1 cancer, so they are discussing options for treatment. She has permission to ride again...we were kind of worried a fall would result in her head rolling across the desert!

She rode Cowboy this time and loved it. Cowboy is such an utterly SENSIBLE horse. First time out on a real desert ride since December, he was totally at peace, totally sensible, just a genuine confidence builder! What a great little horse he is! You just know, whatever happens, Cowboy will respond with good sense and safely! He's a total jerk if you ride him in the arena, but out in the desert? He looks around, enjoys, but just exudes safety.

We were buzzed today by a couple of turkey vultures (Internet picture):








​ 
They made a couple of low passes - maybe 10 feet or less above us - passing over Bandit & I. Interestingly, Bandit was utterly calm. Guess he sees them enough that he doesn't view them as a threat. Not very pretty on the ground, but very graceful in the air. They kept us company for a couple of minutes, sliding back and forth beside us, then caught a thermal and went back up. They find their beauty in motion.

We also had a Ferruginous hawk come check us out on the return trip. It would have been a good ride to carry a camera. Hopefully my new one will arrive today. I know a lot of folks use their phone, and my wife bought me an iphone 8 to try to drag me into the modern age...but if my "camera" takes a fall, I'd prefer it be a $90 camera...

A good morning's ride. Bandit had a couple of small spooks at the beginning, but settled and returned with his head barely above his withers, strolling thru the neighborhood. I may drop my stirrups a notch, though. My knees are tired and the long setting prevents me from bracing. The best solution would be to learn to bend my knees...:evil:...but longer is almost like riding with no stirrups. Gotta think about it.


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## whisperbaby22

Darn, couldn't see the picture.


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## bsms

Hmmm...that's the problem with an Internet picture, @whisperbaby22. Never know when it will disappear. 








​ 
With attribution: By Cathartes_aura_-Florida_-USA_-flying-8.jpg: Doriderivative work: Snowmanradio (talk) - originally posted to Flickr as 20100130_9554 and uploaded to commons as Cathartes_aura_-Florida_-USA_-flying-8.jpg

Big birds! Very impressive when they fly a wingspan or so over your head. I thought it interesting that neither Cowboy nor Bandit even flickered when they buzzed us. Bandit may have problems at times with trash cans or empty potato chip sacks, but turkey vultures? No sweat!


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## Woodhaven

They are big birds and when they fly/glide over they can leave quite a shadow.
Today when I was out riding a big one lighted in the field just few feet ahead of us. My mare raised her head up and was watching very suspiciously. I told her that it was no big deal as she has had geese land in her field. I yelled and waved my arms and it flew away. That was good. I think they can appear pretty scary.

One time years ago I was riding on a horse that I didn't know very well and went past a tree, I just happened to look up and there were about 25 vultures sitting in it watching us. Fortunately they stayed where they were, I imagine that many taking off could be pretty frightening for a horse.

Glad your horses took it in stride.


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## whisperbaby22

Wow, that's a beautiful bird. I have red tail hawks here that are about the biggest raptors, they are really cool to see.


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## SueC

Your horse has very nice feet, *bsms*! It's winter wet here so our (barefoot) horses' hooves never get to resemble mustang hooves. I asked the question because in horse racing, if a horse is knocking its knees at speed (which yours won't be) - and this is more likely with narrow horses - then often they will slightly lower the front hooves on the outside, which gives them a little more clearance. Turns out your horse already has that configuration! Hooray for barefoot.

Those cactus flowers look tulip sized - or have I got the wrong idea of scale here?

Love the raptor. The biggest one here is the Wedge-Tailed Eagle:


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## bsms

Response to http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/bitless-bridle-help-789459/#post1970528193



bsms said:


> Glad Bandit doesn't have Internet service. He didn't seem confused at all.
> 
> Maybe the difference is that I don't do two-handed pulling with a Dr Cook's? When I use the reins, I'm using left or right rein, and mostly not using rein.
> 
> I'll go try the Dr Cook's on Bandit and feel with my fingers to see if I can determine where pressure is applied. After all, I've read countless authorities who claim western curb bits apply pressure to the poll - but I've never been able to duplicate it. And I've read many who claimed a Baucher bit applies poll pressure, although that seems obviously wrong. So....I'll go try it...and report back. Whatever the result is.





bsms said:


> OK...tried the Dr Cook's on Bandit. Placed my fingers under different spots and pulled on the right rein to apply pressure. Here are some things written about it:
> 
> "_The Dr. Cook’s bridle controls the horse primarily through poll pressure. When you put pressure on one – or both – reins, there is also a squeeze (or hug, as they define it) to the entire head, but the most pressure is applied to the poll. When the pressure on the reins is lessoned, the pressure on the horse’s head is reduced/released._"
> 
> https://equineink.com/2008/09/30/dr...ill-a-cross-under-design-work-for-your-horse/
> 
> "_This bitless bridle communicates by distributing mild pressure around the whole of your horse’s head - across the bridge of the nose, under the chin, along the side of the cheek, and over the poll. Its action can best be described as a ‘whole-head-hug’ over a large area of relatively insensitive tissue_."
> 
> https://www.yourhorse.co.uk/bridles-blog/six-of-the-best-bitless-bridles
> 
> I didn't feel a "whole head hug". I think both descriptions above are wrong.
> 
> Pulling on the right rein, there was pressure on the top of the nose and the right side of the jaw as that side tightened. It then has a pull to that side but most of the actual pressure feels to me to be on top of the nose and along the lower right jaw. There was more pressure there than I expected, maybe because the ring on that side becomes the focus, where two sections are being squeezed together. If there was pressure on the far side of the face, I couldn't feel it - or see any sign of pressure.
> 
> Releasing the rein did not result in slack against the jaw & nose, but it did release the pressure on the jaw and nose.
> 
> I rarely use both reins at the same time, but it felt to me like it created pressure on the nose and sides of the face, not the bottom. I didn't detect any poll pressure, but can try again later when I have more time.
> 
> I need to try again using the jumping cavesson instead of the Dr Cook's. Might make for an interesting comparison.
> 
> FWIW, Bandit was more interested in moving his head due to flies annoying him than due to my pulling on the reins. And since he knows a pull of the right rein means to tip his face toward the right, getting very much pressure there while standing next to him is difficult. He just releases it himself. Poor Bandit seemed mostly confused at why I was sticking my fingers between him and the bridle in various spots, but he's a patient fellow used to me doing odd things.


I need to try this more when I have time. Got grandson watching duties today, so going out and fiddling with horses isn't a good option. He'll wander off if outside, and cannot be trusted to stay out of trouble if left indoors unsupervised. Not at 4! Very bad idea! So the few minutes I had before my wife left the house were the limit of my trial today.

I'll say this: I was surprised at what my fingers felt.

But I also have concluded horses are horses, not engineers. Detailed, analytical straight-line reasoning is not their forte. They don't break the feel of a bit (or bitless) into subcomponents, compare each to previous experience, and then get confused because some of the subcomponents are providing "conflicting" signals. They just experience the total feeling, then try to figure out what action restores a feeling of peace and harmony after feeling the total experience.


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## bsms

*Long Post Warning!*

Yesterday, I wrote:



bsms said:


> ...I can't remember the last time Bandit reacted with more than a couple of quick steps sideways or a sudden halt. Add in the Abetta with its built in grip and the bitless bridle, and it is almost like trying to learn how to ride all over. I don't know if experienced riders ever feel that way. It is like a door has opened to a different room in the house of riding. I'm standing in the doorway wondering if I should enter. If you have stayed safe doing X, it is hard to try Y....


But I'm thinking my answer might be to NOT enter the new room. I think there are many approaches to riding, all of which can be "proper" - provided one has asked, "Proper for what?"

A while back, I posted this video on a thread:






I also posted some pictures of fairly typical western riders, including Craig Cameron and Chris Cox.








​ 
My point was that some positions offer greater safety than others, particularly on a spooky horse. It was in response to a person arguing that heels forward meant you would fall if a horse spooked, which would mean I would have fallen about a thousand times - if true.
@*tinyliny* made this comment:



tinyliny said:


> ....anyway, the big difference between how the cutting horse riders work, and the position illustrated and called 'G"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> If that the rider in G has her foot totally braced FORWARD into the stirrup, and to do that, she probably has a rigidly locked knee. That means so much of her weight is down, pushed hard against that stirrup, FORWARD of her center of gravity, that when the horse props, she will be projected forward, with her stirrup being the pivot point. If she grips hard with the knee, it can become a pivot point.
> 
> You watch that cutting rider. His knees are soft, and his feet are IN the stirrups, but never pushing it hard forward. His weight is in the SADDLE, and he leans forward and stays soft in his waist and shoulders, absorbing this movement.
> 
> a limp rag cannot be projectiled, but a stiff stick can!


I didn't respond because I thought the thread was going downhill fast and I figured I'd feel dirty of I kept on posting. But tinyliny's comment stuck with me. I almost responded at the time because her comment was so spot on...although I've never found the stirrups to act like a pivot point. But a requirement for this approach is hinted at in something Barry Godden posted years ago:



xxBarry Godden said:


> Years ago I was taught to ride 'Western' by an old, bent bow legged Canadian cowboy who had been involved with horses since he was a kid. In the 1930s he had been a winning rodeo rider. By the time I met him he had formed a Western riding club in Surrey, where anyone who rode horses used the English hunting seat. Kennie's first job with new members was to teach them how to ride Western on his Western schooled horses.
> 
> *The first lesson was to adjust the stirrups so that the leg was carried almost straight*. Enough bend was left in the knee to just lift the butt off the seat of the saddle even at the trot.
> 
> The second lesson was to learn to ride with significant weight carried on the stirrups at all times.
> 
> The third lesson was to move with the horse, if it leant over, then lean with it.
> 
> *The rider sat upright and straight using the feet to compensate and resist the forces of gravity and movement by pressing down on the stirrups - which were almost being used as 'pedals'.*
> 
> The rider leaned with the horse - if the horse went to the right at speed then the rider would lean over with the horse into the bend.
> 
> We always were to ride on a loose rein held in one hand only. The bits were all Western lever bits and we were told never to ride collected as the potential for accidental pressure on the horse's jaw was too great.
> 
> When we trotted - which was usually on level tarmac - we always posted.
> 
> *If the weight was held on the stirrups, then the rider could not rise too high so long as the stirrups had been adjusted correctly for Western*. The knee joint took the strain of rising to the trot.
> 
> *The riding technique as described above was regarded as almost heresy by regular English riders trained by the British Horse Society. But it worked...*


I started trying this back when riding Mia, both in response to watching cutting videos and thinking, "_That looks like Mia walking down a street!_" and Barry Godden's post. When my legs are long enough that they mostly hang loose, I visualized it as if a pin ran thru my hips, and my legs were free to slide around almost at will.

That is anathema to Littauer's approach, which had security based in a stable lower leg. After all, if you are going to get out of the saddle as your horse gallops for hours, or to jump obstacles as you go along, your security NEEDS to come from your lower leg.

But if you use your legs like Barry was taught, then A) you tend to put more weight on the horse's back. Sorry, horse! But...a walking horse won't object much, and the large majority of my riding involves walking - horse hiking, so to speak!

And B), when the horse suddenly changes direction, your freely moving leg tends to slide out in response. As the horse spooks and spins, the leg on the inside is pushed back by the horse's shoulder. The free outside leg continues forward and out, which leaves your foot in the stirrup in line with your momentum (forward and off the shoulder), putting the leg in a great position to push back against the forces trying to tear you off of the horse.

Suppose you were trying to stand in the bed of a pickup truck, and you knew the truck was about to start a hard left turn. You would move your right leg forward. That would allow you to counter what your momentum does when the truck starts its turn. If your legs are free to pivot, and if you don't try to have a stable lower leg, the horse's sudden turn will sling the outside leg forward - where you can support yourself in the turn.

After all, falling comes when your center of gravity goes outside your base of support. The two ways of stopping that are to either keep your center of gravity from moving or pushing your base of support out.

Coming back to where I ride...I don't have anything to jump. In the desert, if you jump an obstacle, you will almost certainly land on rock or cactus. Bad news! And there aren't many places where a horse can trot more than a quarter-mile without encountering rocks that will trash its feet. And if you DO fall, you are royally SCREWED. No matter where you land, you are screwed!








​ 
I can keep a stable lower leg. If I want. Littauer taught me that. So has a lot of two point. And if I wanted to jump, or to gallop for miles (or trot for miles), then what he taught would be superior to what I've kind of drifted into doing. But...for doing 90% walking in the desert...maybe what I've been doing really IS good riding - FOR THAT PURPOSE. And as tinyliny wrote, "*a limp rag cannot be projectiled, but a stiff stick can!*"

I've turned 60. If I ride with limp legs that are free to move, and free to stiffen up on the outside when momentum carries my leg there, and my inside leg is free to curl up even and hold on to the horse's side...kind of like how I tend to end up when Bandit drops his shoulder a little in a turn...then it is relaxing AND pretty safe.

Honestly, I think teaching Bandit it is OK to drop his shoulder if he needs to in a turn has helped us both. My last ride a couple of days ago, he had energy to burn. I didn't want him to blow his mind in our little arena, and I didn't want to try to hold him in, so I let him pick the speed while I chose the turn. The horse who sometimes had problems cantering thru 180 degrees of turn on a 60-70 foot circle 'straight' (and in his best direction!) was cantering and / or fast trotting in 20-25 foot circles, both directions. As in 4-8 circles at a time, until he'd settle for a moment. Then we would straighten out. And if he got too excited, we'd turn again.

It allows him to turn more freely. It also gives me practice staying on a horse who is turning hard, while I focus on staying balanced with him and staying ON him. 

If we ever move to northern Arizona or southern Utah, to someplace where a horse CAN cruise along a dirt road for a mile or two, then I will need to adapt. If I had a chance to take lessons in some horse sport - jumping, for example - then I'd need to use a different approach. But right now, *WHERE I ride shapes HOW I ride*.

On days when I know I'm going to stay in the arena with Bandit, shortening my stirrups and trying to return to my Forward Seat / Littauer roots may be a good thing. For fun. But what I've been doing really does work well for WHAT I'm doing, and what I do is imposed on me by our terrain.

PS: All this assumes there are multiple good ways to ride. I think that is so obviously true as to be axiomatic. Unfortunately, many riders believe their approach is the ONLY approach.


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## whisperbaby22

I think you are right. The best way to ride is the way that works for you the best.


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## bsms

I'm now pretty strongly in the camp of "_If you are happy, and you ride a happy horse...how bad can it be?_"

PS - Rode Bandit today. Started with the longer setting - the 'hard to keep on my foot' setting. It felt really comfortable, actually. I'd be content to ride like that. But I also noticed that when I shortened the stirrups one hole up from the _'hard to keep on your foot'_ setting, Bandit got a lot more enthusiastic. We even knocked out a bunch of very fast and very tight trotting circles...his choice, not mine. So I think that is where I'll leave my Abetta. I'd like just a tiny bit longer, but he is happier with just a little shorter. And while I wrote, "_Sorry, horse!_"...well, there are horses and there is Bandit, don't you know. If I need to compromise a little to make him happier, well...that will make ME happier. Happy horse, happy life.

Just don't tell my wife I wrote that. SHE thinks it is supposed to be, "Happy WIFE, Happy life!"


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> PS: All this assumes there are multiple good ways to ride. I think that is so obviously true as to be axiomatic. Unfortunately, many riders believe their approach is the ONLY approach.


Thanks for the good post. I think you just helped me figure out what the difference is between a secure seat and one that is less secure. I hope you will not mind some musings if I type and work through this mentally.

I agree, there are many good ways to ride (many bad ways too). My personal search and teaching of those I want to keep safe is not about what is "correct." Except it is, because I think what is correct is what does not injure you. So however you do it, you must not torque your joints or use your body in a way that puts it under destructive pressure. If your joints are not good enough (thinking of those with bad knees) to two point or ever get off the horse's back, you probably shouldn't be trying to jump or gallop, but I'm not saying you can't because with the right horse and tack, you could do it safely while staying on the horse's back. Probably one that doesn't buck or dart out from under you.

This picture was on FB today:








People were saying this guy looks so relaxed he could be eating cereal or chatting on the phone. To me it is a good picture of an independent seat. But back to my point, is it really his lower leg that is keeping him secure? Or is it his hips that are giving him the stance over the horse? His lower leg appears to sit on the horse, but really he could have any angle depending on how his hips flexed in relation to the width of the horse, his knees and toe could point outward and he could be as secure. He also could have his stirrups shorter or longer. All he really needs is for his hips to adapt to any balance changes in his core, and if his hips are loose, his leg stance can follow to balance him either by swinging forward, back or to the side. 

For some reason when I heard that "your security is in your lower leg," it helped me attach the whole leg to my hip. But I read through your explanations and the truth that @tinyliny said about the limp rag, and I think the issue is the disconnection of the rider when they tense parts of the leg. 

What you say about being able to swing your leg out, back or forward is important, I think. That is where I feel people lose the security, because they don't keep the leg connected from the hip. I think I'm just understanding that the knee flexion, if you have your stirrups shorter is important _only_ because stiffness there can create a block between your hip and the ability to move your leg. 
When I am two pointing, the crucial thing is that my hip is connected to my stirrup so I can move my leg wherever it needs to go to keep the balance point. The reason the lower leg is on the horse is to help with the balance that is coming from the hip. 

You can sit on your hips and have decent balance. Especially at the walk, trot or a nice canter. You can't sit on your knees or your feet alone. You have to keep the leg connected or not use the leg at all. Otherwise it will create imbalance. It must be a line that is not stiff or else it does create a catapult instead of connection. Moving the leg off the horse too wide and pressing on the stirrups tends to create that stiffness. Laying the leg on the horse helps keep a dynamic connection.

Hopefully some of you can point out whatever flaws you see in this line of thinking.


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## gottatrot

Double post


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## tinyliny

so fun to see myself quoted multiple time! makes me feel like a celebrity!

With regard to how to sit, I think talking to a ParaOlympian who , perhaps, has no knees or lower legs, or whose legs are dead weights, for example, and asking how HE/SHE balances , would really be interesting.
I know that really great dressage riders will often show such a loose lower leg that it flops around. 

Ive been riding more lately, and more vigorously and really enjoying it! and so has X. I try to think of having an adhesive seat in terms of letting everything from thigh to the middle of my back do all the work. my back is supposed to 'allow' for movement. (hard to do as you get older!!!) , my glutes contract a bit (not too much , but enough to have static fullness there, and my inner thighs bring my thigh in so that it really 'follows' the hrose's back , no matter what. My lower legs flop around mostly, maintaining just enough pressure to not lose the stirrup. (unless the doo-doo hits the fan!) 

If , I end up with my heel coming up , then I know that I am contracting the muscle along the back of the thigh, which brings the heel up. it is part and parcel with 'freezing' caused by tension or fear. Freezing, anywhere in the rider's body prevents him from going 'with' the horse. 

That is why it is useful for half halting the horse; because once you freeze up, your lack of movement with the horse is very evident to him and 'makes' him pause to allow you to catch up with him. Your freezing sort of makes him tentatively temp-freeze, and make himself available to your next command.

I wish I ONLY did that when I wanted to half halt, instead of when I'm scared or out of balance, or . . . you name it!



I can't 2 point worth beans. I wish Gotta would teach me.


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## bsms

Part of what I posted on gottatrot's thread:



bsms said:


> ...If I shorten my legs too much, I find it hard to move my legs around independently and freely. I think of it as ball bearings in my hips, so my seat is seated (or just a little above the seat) but my legs can move freely to apply momentary, fluid pressure against the stirrups. While needed.
> 
> Good riders can obviously compensate. **** Francis didn't go flying off of Devon Loch when the horse did something totally unexpected:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> But I don't have that level of experience or athleticism. I need help from my stirrups, my saddle, etc. ANY help I can get! Heck, **** Francis in that picture looks like he could step off Devon Loch and just stroll along beside the sliding horse! That is SOOO not me!
> 
> "_That is where I feel people lose the security, because they don't keep the leg connected from the hip. I think I'm just understanding that the knee flexion, if you have your stirrups shorter is important only because stiffness there can create a block between your hip and the ability to move your leg._"
> 
> Now that you've said it, it makes sense to me. At 60, often taking Motrin BEFORE a ride, I just can't do what **** Francis did - but if one can, then by all means!
> 
> I sometimes think of Bandit as an 850 lb surfboard. My legs need to move around so I can stay balanced in the stirrups (if I have them). And if not, then having my legs aligned as if I did have stirrups still seems to give me my most balanced seat.
> 
> Although I like to think of myself as a western rider, I also like this:
> 
> "_The verb 'to sit' should be eliminated from our vocabulary where riding is concerned, for the idea it conveys is intrinsically misleading. *Were it not for its indecorous connotation the word 'perch' would more aptly suggest the position the rider should assume*..._" - Riding Reflections, Piero Santini, 1933


Much of how I think about riding is affected by my reading texts on the Forward Seat, written in the 30-50s. That...and watching cutting horses. No idea how to reconcile the two. As Bandit moves less like a cutting horse and more like a normal one, I can afford to get more off his back. But staying CLOSE to his back is very reassuring for an old guy whose spooks occur 90% on pavement!

*"Surfing on Bandit"* sure isn't a mental picture that will win me many admirers, but it kind of describes how I feel. And while I've never surfed in my life, it seems like a sport where fluid balance and staying grounded above your feet would be important. Staying loose, but not floppy. I think it allows me the option of having my seat OFF Bandit, yet be both secure and fluid.

Yeah, I'm a riding geek!


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## bsms

Saw this and cracked up. About a minute in, he explains WHY Clint Eastwood treats actors like horses:


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## bsms

Larry Trocha recommended this video as an example of ranch sorting done right. I can only DREAM of being that fluid on a horse...no bracing here!






Looks like it would be a total blast to learn.


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## whisperbaby22

That does look like fun.


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## carshon

I exercised cutting horses at 18 and 19 (feels like eons ago) I am a self taught rider with some lessons from a 4-H leader and mainly rode bareback unless at a show where my sisters and I rode Western and English and did some jumping. I can tell you that 30yrs ago when I rode the cutting horses it was all about an independent seat. Your legs were meant to rest easy on the side of the horse and only give very subtle cues - and only if needed. I was allowed to move my upper body any way I wanted (I rode young horses and legged up the seasoned ones) but my legs could not "grip" the horse in any way. Many years of riding bareback taught me a good independent seat but it also taught me to grip with my legs - so relearning some of those skills was fun. 

Going back to gotta's post about the hips. I can tell you then supple hips made all of the difference riding those horses. Now that I have been battling piriformis syndrome for months and my hips are extremely tight I can tell you it has most definitely negatively impacted my riding skill.


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## bsms

"_my hips are extremely tight I can tell you it has most definitely negatively impacted my riding skill_"

Amen! Preach on!

Jogging tightens my hips and screws with my riding. Good for me in many other ways, but add an injured lower back to my tight hips and YEGADS!

Last time on Bandit, I told him all I wanted to do that day was to stretch out my hips after jogging. So he kind of wandered around, nibbling an odd spot of grass and only sometimes being asked to briefly trot. When he got back in the corral, I'd swear he turned to Trooper and said:

"_That boy is learning. Another year or two, and I'll have him sitting there while I spend 10 hours grazing my way across 2 miles of desert!_" :rofl:​


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## bsms

While briefly riding Bandit, I worried that @*carshon* might think I was making light of his medical condition:

"Piriformis syndrome is an uncommon neuromuscular disorder that is caused when the piriformis muscle compresses the sciatic nerve. The piriformis muscle is a flat, band-like muscle located in the buttocks near the top of the hip joint. This muscle is important in lower body movement because it stabilizes the hip joint and lifts and rotates the thigh away from the body. This enables us to walk, shift our weight from one foot to another, and maintain balance. It is also used in sports that involve lifting and rotating the thighs -- in short, in almost every motion of the hips and legs."

https://www.webmd.com/pain-management/guide/piriformis-syndrome-causes-symptoms-treatments#1

Since there was a "like" when I got back, I guess no offense was taken. Good. I've battled pain in my lower back, running down like a hot wire into my thigh, ever since I took my one fall from a horse, from Mia, in Jan 2009. Started hurting again today, which is part of why I don't understand the idea that it is OK for riders to fall off a horse. Ever. One fall and over 9 years of pain, without even breaking anything!

My ride with Bandit was short. 25 minutes. The first 5 minutes were very lazy. Then the lady across the street brought some branches to stuff into her garbage can on the other side of the street from our tiny arena.

 OMG!

OMG!

She's offering a sacrifice to the Trash Can Monster God!​ 
Bandit figured we'd best get the heck out of there. I disagreed. So we did a 90 right, then 180 left, then 180 right, then 180 left.

Remember when I wrote "Looks like it would be a total blast to learn." Belay my last!

After we bounced around a bit, I decided we could turn away. Bandit ran. "_Oh no you're not!_" So we worked our way toward the horrible Trash Can Monster God. Gave a little slack, and off we...cantered! "_Oh no you're not!_"

So for 15 minutes, we did tight turns, canters, counter-canters, runs up the middle, figure 8s, etc. At the end of those 15 minutes, Bandit was mostly walking in our tiny arena next to the TCMG, separated by the pavement. We got in another 5 minutes of riding. Mostly calm. No leaping horses, at least.

Then I called it a day. My lower back feels like someone sucker punched me there. I have a cut on the back of my hand - how in the heck do you cut the back of your hand riding?! - and I'm feeling my 60 years. But Bandit was acting pretty sane, and I figured I had done the best I could do.

I was using the "one hole up from having problems keeping my stirrups" setting, and it worked just fine. No problem while surfing on Bandit's back! Bandit wanted his face rubbed at end of ride, just as always. Was relaxed walking back to the corral.

I bought an instructional DVD from Bernie Traurig. I enjoy watching the fluid motion of the horse just sliding along under his rider. But today was *the world I live in, where an innocuous act by a neighbor can leave me on a horse who is doing "ranch sorting", just without any cattle!* First real reaction Bandit has had in ages. Glad we weren't on pavement at the time! Spooky horse and pavement = YUCKY!

It is good for me in a way, though. I now KNOW this stirrup setting is secure enough. I used to be able to practice spooks all the time. Bandit has been so calm for so long that I haven't had a chance to experiment. And in reality, he mostly listened to me. I mean, we may have hopped back a forth a little, but he didn't bolt. He didn't LIKE returning to the end of the arena near the TCMG, but...he did. Was eager to get away, but he followed my commands adequately. Didn't try to take him all the way to the TCMG. THAT would have been a Monster Too Far, so to speak. And we finished, if not relaxed, at least sane and listening without much tension in his back.

HIS. Not mine. Mine needs some help from my old friend, Mr Motrin!

Actually, I still think ranch sorting looks like it would be fun. I wonder...do they allow you to wear a back brace?


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## phantomhorse13

gottatrot said:


> I think the issue is the disconnection of the rider when they tense parts of the leg.


Tension is the enemy. Tension in the leg makes for all sorts of unexpected consequences as can tension in the core or the upper body. Learning to keep all one's bits relaxed while still giving cues and staying on top of the horse is not nearly as easy as it sounds!




tinyliny said:


> I can't 2 point worth beans.


Are you unable to two point because of pain issues (bad ankles or knees?) or because of balance issues? If the issue is balance, then I don't see why you can't work on developing things.. but if the issue is pain, I don't think it's worth worrying about unless you plan to start doing a lot of jumping or galloping long distances.





bsms said:


> The first 5 minutes were very lazy. Then the lady across the street brought some branches to stuff into her garbage can on the other side of the street from our tiny arena.
> 
> OMG!
> 
> OMG!
> 
> She's offering a sacrifice to the Trash Can Monster God!​




:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Probably unkind to laugh, but I could picture all this in my head so perfectly! What is that saying, be careful what you wish for?! However, having a horse perform those kind of moves intentionally and with purpose is very different than trying to contain one that is trying to flee.

I hope your motrin supply was helpful.​


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## SueC

bsms said:


> I wonder...do they allow you to wear a back brace?


There's a thread called Krones & Kodgers where there is lots of useful advice on back braces, posture supports, joint supports, supportive exercises, Zimmer frames, hoists to get you on a horse, you name it! 

Here's a shoulder brace/posture support I've found useful, not just for re-setting muscle memory to lose the tall person stoop thing, and for supportive use during and after my recent shoulder injury, but actually for helping with the lower back area, where I have a pre-existing injury best managed by regular Pilates.

The shoulder brace immediately supports the thoracic spine, which is overly curved out in me without Pilates, shoulder brace, posture training etc (because not dealt with when I was young and as it happened, in the middle childhood growth spurt when muscles were trying to catch up with the skeleton). And...by decreasing the thoracic curvature, my somewhat excessive lumbar curvature flattens out more too, automatically, which makes riding much more comfortable and less likely to aggravate my lumbar injury. Even though the shoulder brace is nowhere near the lumbar area, it has a follow-on effect. Super comfortable to wear:

https://www.posturebraceguide.com/re...h-bad-posture/

I'm not sure if this would be of any help to you, but you may be able to pass the info on to someone whom it would benefit...


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## bsms

I didn't want to comment on this in the thread where it appeared ( http://www.horseforum.com/new-horses/comfort-bridle-help-789805/ ). But it struck me as both very accurate and succinct:



Avna said:


> ....It is a very rare equine professional who has any sense of the real biomechanics of riding and tack. The amount of peer-reviewed and tested science used by riding instructors is infinitesimal. Doesn't mean they don't know how to do stuff, it's just that riding is more of a 'learned feel' than anything else.
> 
> There are only two reasons to do anything with training and tack:
> 
> 1. because it gets the results you want. The cost of those results being a somewhat separate issue.
> 
> 2. because it is your unexamined habit, whether it gets results, doesn't do anything either way, or is a net detriment....


I'm largely self-taught, so I can't complain I picked things up from X discipline. But there are things that have worked for me, and I find it hard to change - even knowing a change MIGHT make things better! If I have done X with some success, then trying Y in hopes of more success is difficult. It just "feels" wrong, even when it might really be right.

I try to experiment and keep and open mind. But I am such a creature of habit!

And yes, I find so much of what is written or discussed on video to be rooted in unquestioned assumptions! So often a simple search of photos or other riding styles will make it obvious someone is just blowing smoke. Is it really so hard to look around?


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## whisperbaby22

So much of what I see with bridles now is silly. Manufacturers are having a field day with all this stuff. Since I make my own bridles, I feel I have a right to comment. Years ago I made a snaffle bridle copied from some pictures my husband had brought back from china, so I call it my chinese snaffle. When I saw the miklem stuff, I was like hey, the copied some of my design. But my design is more simple and elegant, a much better bridle.

But yes, most of this stuff is just to make money. What works is what works. A lot of cow horses were ridden in a one ear split which you never see nowadays.


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## bsms

Just had an excellent ride, by far the best of the year. My DIL rode Cowboy. I rode Bandit. And we putzed around on the couple hundred acres of open land near us. As usual. Except we didn't putz as much.

During the first half of the ride, I asked Bandit for a trot. He gave me a fast trot with me in two point. My DIL hasn't ridden much lately, but give her credit - she is game. After 20 minutes, my legs and back started to loosen up. In the wash, in heavy sand, I asked Bandit to move up to a canter. He did, although he struggled a bit with the deep sand. Cowboy is 8 inches shorter, 10 years older - and every bit as game as my DIL! We couldn't ever canter long. Ever couple hundred yards, at the very best, the sand turned into lots of big rocks. We climbed out of the wash, dodged cactus off trail, got on trail, trotted and even briefly cantered along the trail - briefly, again, Rocks. 

I looked back and it looked to me like my DIL had uneven stirrups. I asked and she said one the left was a hole longer. She hadn't noticed until we were along the trail and didn't want to stop to correct it.

"_But, but...your stirrups are uneven!_"

"_It's OK. I don't use them much._"

*HERETIC!*​ 
A couple minutes later, she agreed it might be best to fix them, so we did. Dropped back into the wash and cantered again - when we could. Eventually ended up heading back on the uneven dirt road. Cantered - and Bandit and Cowboy decided to race. 8 inches shorter, double the age - and Cowboy wanted to race. I think it was a bit much for my DIL, so I tried to slow Bandit. Things got bouncy. Bandit didn't want to slow and he hopped and twisted around. Finally got him down to a trot and my DIL joined us. 

"_What does it mean with Cowboy and Bandit shake their heads back and forth?_"

"_It means we're telling them to slow down, and they are shaking their head, 'No. No! No! Wanna runnnnn....'_"​ 
We both agreed it would be soooo nice if we could take them out to a smooth dirt road and let them open up. Cowboy is not built for speed but he'd sure give it a try! And Bandit simply was having fun!

There was one more smooth spot, where the road turns and climbs to the top of a small hill and enters the neighborhood. That is where the new horses have moved in. So I let Bandit canter, and Cowboy was willing to trot along behind. He's also overweight - so old, fat and short - but he gave a good faith effort.

I insisted Bandit walk past the strange horses. When we got to paved road, Cowboy wanted to trot fast. So we let them. Insisted they slow to a walk where we turn 90 degrees on to a steep downhill spot, then let them trot (their decision) up the hill to the arena and home. Bandit accelerated into a gallop at the arena, doing one lap then agreeing to stop and get his tack off. Cowboy still hates arenas, so he slowed and did a very reluctant lap at a trot.

It was probably the most we've ever cantered. Bandit got excited sometimes, but never lost his mind and MOSTLY would slow when asked. It was so nice to canter in a straight line, one hand on the reins! Cowboy DID chip a hoof on a rock somewhere, but it is a round chip along the side, no crack. It will be fine. It was obvious the two were starting to feel competitive. But my DIL didn't get scared on Cowboy, and Bandit never went stupid.

That's what was hard with Mia. She could get excited to the point she stopped thinking, stopped looking at her footing, and did NOT want to listen to me. We'd be hurtling along the track, her not thinking about anything but speed - and I'd watched her fall enough times without a rider to know she was no great shakes at keeping her feet!

Bandit doesn't go stupid. He may get resistant. He may want to keep going, but he doesn't lose his mind. Worst case, if a rocky spot comes up, he WILL see it and WILL adjust. And Cowboy - that great little stubborn mustang pony - will not lose his footing either. No matter how excited he gets, he takes care of himself - and thus his rider. 

My son and I riding Cowboy and Bandit side by side last fall:








​
Not exactly a fair race competition, but don't tell Cowboy! He reminds me of the scene in Hondo, where Ward Bond shouts, "I was born game!" Don't let his size fool you. He's one hell of a horse!

BTW - Trooper gets scared if he falls too far behind Bandit, then stops thinking. That is a big part of why even my daughter doesn't like cantering him along a trail any more. We think it is his eyesight. Trooper may not be a safe cantering horse outside the arena any more, but it probably isn't his fault. My daughter knows him better than anyone and she believes his eyesight is going. If so, it isn't fair to him to put him in that situation.


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## tinyliny

so fun to hear about your great ride! I can totally relate. I mean, I'm older now and don't canter a lot on my rides, but lately I've been restretching those limits.

I try to pick spots that have a good sight line (being as how I ride in a thick forest, straight sight lines are limited). The nice thing is that X will go up to a canter, and back down to a trot with a whiff of my breath.

I am usually in the lead, so I don't have to deal with the 'race' mentality. But, the other day, I was following a group who started the usual canter up the hill. I held X back, and when I stopped holding him, he SHOT out and galloped back to join the group. No amount of pressure on the halter rope (I ride in a halter) would slow him. At my age, little thrills like that are enough to tickle my soul.


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## bsms

I liked your comment on another thread, @*tinyliny* , about horses sometimes just getting excited and not wanting to stop. I don't know why people find that hard to accept. I gather a truly well-trained, very obedient horse may not do that...but darn it! Horses ought to be able to have fun while being ridden, too! And if Bandit and Cowboy start to get a bit competitive and feel like stretching out...well, as long as it doesn't overwhelm my DIL and doesn't take us across places that can harm their feet, then why not indulge them?

My time with Mia left me with some mild PTSD-like stuff. When Bandit starts to get 'strong', I can feel tension in MY body. But Bandit is safer than Mia was. He has already ridden fast many, many miles and his mind never stops working. He may not be interested in slowing when I am, but...if it isn't unsafe, then maybe tell him "_OK, we've got another 100-150 yards...enjoy!_"

*"At my age, little thrills like that are enough to tickle my soul."*

Amen! A lot of folks would, if they rode my ride today, be going, "_Ho-hum, yawn, um...trying to stay awake..._" But for a 60 year old guy whose stomach sometimes twists itself into knots for no reason, presumably from bad moments on Mia in my subconscious..."_little thrills like that are enough to tickle my soul._"

In my defense, some people on a horse who resists slowing immediately when asked would freak. I just cannot relate to the idea that if I still my body, my horse will slow. I mean...really? All the time? Cowboy is short, fat, and out of shape, but he has more spunk than that!

If Bandit never shook his head "_No!_" at me, and never strengthened his stride and made it clear he really wanted to keep going, I'd lose respect for him. 20 year old Cowboy can go, "_Game's on, I'll take you this time!_" It is part of why my family loves him. Cowboy is like Mia & Bandit. Never lets you forget there is another person involved in the ride, and THAT other person is the one with 4 feet on the ground!

But like my DIL said afterward, you also know Cowboy is always thinking and always aware of WHERE he is running. Worst case, just hang on and it will be alright. And a horse like that is a darn fine horse, even if there is only 13.0 hands of him!


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## weeedlady

"At my age, little thrills like that are enough to tickle my soul."


 Love this ^^^^. Made me smile.


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## tinyliny

I know that dropping in the pit of the stomach feeling , when you ask them to slow, and they don't. But, it is short lived, and when the dash is over, and you LAUGH, (which is my go to method for distilling pent up negative stress energy), you are GLAD you had that moment of minor terror.


As much as I poo-poo my lower level of riding, I can STILL outride a few of the newbies at the barn. will be a sad day when I can't even say that.

on a recent ride, X had a very rare spook. He's such a solid guy 99% of the time, it makes me complacent. But, we came around a corner, and low and behold! the construction people had left a bale of straw on the ground. 

He saw that and was like, "I'm outta here, and the fastest way is to back up at lightening speed, wheel and go!" He got the back up, and then started on the wheeling, but I had the rope up and had his head around faster! So, he tried the other directiuon. Nope! then he was just sort of shaking in his 'boots', and then I kept asking him to just not turn away from it, and then step forward, (at a tangent to it) and then, silly guy, he decides HE MUST GO SEE IT. My riding buddy said , "watch out, he may spin again". But, I just sat in nuetral, and he walked over with purpose and sniffed, then ate of it! I wasn't seriously worried he would spin. somehow I could feel that he was totally committed to investigating it.

That's what comes of riding the same horse for years. With a new horse, I would have been more worried they'd approach, then spin again.


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> *"At my age, little thrills like that are enough to tickle my soul."*
> 
> In my defense, some people on a horse who resists slowing immediately when asked would freak. I just cannot relate to the idea that if I still my body, my horse will slow. I mean...really? All the time? Cowboy is short, fat, and out of shape, but he has more spunk than that!


Probably the reason horses have always been my passion is because they always "tickle my soul" as @tinyliny says. My stomach will randomly tie in knots too, despite the fact that I've ridden and survived many things and many "wild" horses. I have these little pep talks I give myself frequently in my mind when I'm riding. When the horse does not slow, I tell myself that I will expect her to start to slow in another 100 feet. By then I'll invent something else to tell myself. This is calming (ish). 

I believe it is quite natural to feel nervous if you want a horse to slow down and they don't, or even accelerate. For me, the nerves are half about my survival and half about the horse getting hurt. A horse that will take care of himself like Cowboy is priceless. 

It's not that I appreciate having butterflies or the rare occasion where I am actually terrified. But I am always looking for that beautiful place somewhere south of that where you can find the thrill which is a feeling only horses can give you.

Today I had to decide whether or not to have butterflies, taking Hero around the outer rim of the pastures. Although he's not quite "fit" by my standards he's getting to be a little bit "on the muscle" as they say, and when he gets worried now he is starting to feel like a ball of explosive energy. 

So he's going to get tense, practicing going out alone, and I have to learn his limits. But my pep talk was going on and on. "He's not going to back into the fence. You're going to let out the energy at the right moment. Forward, push him forward. You've caught every thought of bucking before it happened. You will keep doing it. You are directing his steps. You can move him where you want at the right moment. Do it."

And out loud to Hero I was saying some nonsense. "Feel the calm. Be the calm. Learn the energy." Something like that. But it works, I can convince myself to feel relaxed and breathe regularly and deeply, and that horse kept coming down for a moment, and staying directable, and when we got close enough for him to feel safe again I tested to see if I could have him walk calmly, and then stop, lower his head and stand while I got off. Which he did, so I made a big fuss over it. 

How can horses enjoy the work if we don't? It sounds like the ride with your DIL was very enjoyable.


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## bsms

Riding Mia & Bandit has convinced me that with SOME horses, you need to be willing to give up control in order to gain control. I eventually concluded what Mia needed to become a reasonably calm horse was to get out and MOVE, regularly. But I didn't have many places to safely try it. She had proven herself challenged by rough ground and very excitable when allowed to run. Looking back, trading her to someone who lived in a more open area was truly best for her.

If I still owned her, given what I've now learned from Bandit, I would try walking her off-trail and slowly introducing her to rougher ground. She had lived most of her life in a corral. She needed to learn the balance that would allow her to be safe when running on uneven trails or down a wash. She actually liked being led by a human, so I could have started with leading her across rougher and rougher terrain, then gone back and added my weight to increase the challenge.

I was never going to get the spook out of her while she had a lot of pent up energy needing release. My lack of riding experience and lack of good places to let her run made that difficult. It wasn't impossible, but it may have been impossible for ME at THAT time. I simply didn't have the experience. But...I was all she had. :icon_rolleyes:

Bandit had the experience, but I think he needs to run sometimes as well. Not nearly as much as Mia did, and his experience makes it safer to give up control. A rider does need some sort of ultimate veto. I think learning to deal with that conflict, learning how to persist in asserting your will without totally freaking out a horse, is an important part of learning to ride.

I used to get so frustrated when people would tell me to just teach Mia to stop well in an arena and then it would all be OK. I was told hundreds of times that if she was trained right, I would always be able to slow her with subtle seat cues. I'd swear some threads were like a ridiculous competition:

_I can stop my horse with light rein._

_ Oh yeah? Well I can stop my horse with my seat._

_ Oh yeah? Well I can stop my horse by looking at him from across the arena._

_ Oh yeah? I can be on vacation, get a phone call, and stop MY horse by staring at the phone and thinking slow, from 2000 miles away!_​
10 years after I got Mia, when I hear someone say they can stop their horse reliably by just stopping their own motion, I think, "_What a lazy horse you must own!_" Maybe I'm being unfair, but no more so than those who told me Mia just needed to practice stopping in an arena until I could stop her from racing another horse by just stopping my seat!

A strong-minded horse who is enjoying her strength may take a while to slow down. If I really need to slow down in 200 yards (road coming up, for example), I may need to start the process of working him/her down now. That doesn't make me a bad rider or him a bad horse. It just means your approach to riding is rooted in negotiation rather than instant and total surrender of the horse's will.

SOME horses simply will NOT surrender their will to the human. It isn't a matter of training. It is a matter of who they are. Most, like Bandit, fall somewhere in between. But I feel safer on a horse who talks to me and negotiates than on one trained for unquestioning obedience.

And a horse like Cowboy is pretty special - one who can shake his head, "_No, no, NO!_" without scaring a newer rider because you know that Cowboy will keep himself safe and thus keep his rider safe.


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## bsms

This comment on @gottatrot 's journal summarizes what I tried to say, but in just two sentences:



ChasingDreams said:


> ...Sometimes the battle isn’t worth the fight. Lose the battle, win the war...


:clap:​


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## ChasingDreams

*Bandit, Cowboy &amp; bsms...muddling through together*

I know some people talk about interacting with horses in a way that mimics the herd hierarchy. Now, my horse is currently in an all-gelding herd which is pretty much just a huge smooch-fest.

But before we moved, he was in a herd with 4 mares and one other gelding. Most of the mares had been together for YEARS, so there was a very definite hierarchy. But, the lead mare was not the one who was always flashing teeth and pinning ears and making a show of dominance. The second and third in command were the ones always pushing the boys and each other around. But, none provoked the lead mare. And all it took was a look or step in their direction and they would yield to her. She wouldn’t hesitate to kick them in the butt if they needed it, but I think I’d seen her enforce herself maybe once or twice the whole time we were there. It was pure respect and trust that drove them to obey her.

I feel like I want to be that kind of leader with my horse. I don’t want to be a bully that constantly has to throw their weight around to get noticed. I want my horse to trust my decisions and react out of respect. Power struggles don’t build trust or respect IMO


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SueC

I'm still playing catchup with your journal, but I remembered a saying today that was often cited when I was beginning to ride as a kid: "A horse descends steeply to the right and left and is after the life of the rider." I just wanted to congratulate you on being someone who managed to take up riding after leaving behind the elastic stage of childhood and its accompanying delusions of immortality. It gets a lot harder to do a few things if you weren't used to it as a kid - such as horse-riding and eating deep-fried tarantulas (an actual delicacy in parts of South America). High five!


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## weeedlady

@SueC I am so glad you have reappeared. Your posts often make me smile.


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## SueC

Thank you, @*weedlady* , you're very kind.  It's a good thing if we can bring smiles to other people's faces. It's sort of the antithesis of the 24 hour news cycle (which we avoid engaging with, because there is more to real life than natural disasters, war, car crashes, train crashes, plane crashes and inane political soundbites...)

Very best wishes to you and to all reading.


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## bsms

Had a relaxing ride with Bandit & Cowboy & my DIL. Heading out, Bandit felt very stressed at needing to pass a truck parked on the side of the road. I suppose I could have dismounted, but I decided he wasn't THAT worried. When he got to where we were 5 feet off the pavement on the far side & he was still tense, I asked him to trot quickly past. That was acceptable to him and we squirted past. Then we stopped and looked back as Cowboy strolled by. Later, coming back, Bandit strolled on by with barely a glance.

We did some fast trotting in deep sand, but mostly walked. Climbed out of and dropped into the washes at some spots more challenging than normal and both horses did fine.

I was experimenting with using more knee and less stirrup than I have in the past. It wouldn't work well with my slick saddle, nor with my Australian saddle, but seemed OK with the grippy Abetta.

A few years ago, I reviewed a book by Piero Santini and criticized it for its heavy emphasis on use of the knee. After playing around with how things felt today, I ordered a copy of Santini's "Learning to Ride". At $30, it is overpriced. But OTOH, it is cheaper than a single lesson with an instructor. And since I plan to be playing around with his idea using a western saddle...well, where could I find a jumping instructor in southern Arizona who would allow me to try it in a western saddle? And a couple hundred pages by a very influential rider/writer versus the often dismal instruction available locally.

There is an interesting article here (plus a sample):

_Together with those themes, also not surprisingly, Santini declares any school of dressage comprising “exercises based on avowedly artificial balance’’ as irrelevant, indeed antithetical, to “a system”—forward riding—“devised solely for cross-country purposes.” Insistent on that purpose, Santini regards “any training not directly and continuously aimed at open air activities of some kind not only useless but deleterious to both horse and rider,” and so cautions instructors, archly, that there is “not much sense . . . in imparting even the most elementary instruction under any roof but that of the sky.” 
_
_ Santini’s archness, in general, can be harsh: here, he disparages grooms who “shorten cheek pieces until the poor animal’s facial expression is one of grinning idiocy,” and advises course designers that a ditch should not “resemble the handiwork of grave diggers.”
_
Revisiting Piero Santini, Apostle of Forward Riding ? Part 1 | Eventing Nation - Three-Day Eventing News, Results, Videos, and Commentary

Another interesting article is here:

Caprilli in the Words of His Students - U.S. Horsemanship

Another, by Jim Wofford, here:

_"Remember, Caprilli was interested in getting men and horses safely across country, which meant security was a prime concern. The lower-leg position that developed due to his influence was a very strong and secure position, but it was fixed rather than supple. Caprilli did not view this as a defect because of his attitude toward what he referred to as “school” or dressage, as opposed to his own system of “natural” equitation. At one point in his Notes, he states that the rider’s “calves and heels should never touch the horse except by the rider’s deliberate desire.” The contrast between Caprilli’s system and present-day usage is stark because such a position is not suitable for more sophisticated communication between the rider and his horse.”_

https://practicalhorsemanmag.com/training/cro-30296

However, he is incorrect in this statement: "_Under Chamberlin’s influence, the foot was no longer home in the stirrup; instead, the stirrup rested beneath the arch of the rider’s foot._" That is 180 out from what Chamberlin taught.

"_The increased competitive demands for control of the horse’s speed and length of stride required a very supple, sophisticated lower-leg position._" That is actually something Chamberlin, Littauer and Santini would all have disagreed with, since THEIR concern was average riders riding across country and not show jumping. The artificiality of competitive show jumping was harmful to good riding, IF THE GOAL WAS "GOOD FOR AVERAGE RIDERS ON AVERAGE HORSES". Littauer, in particular, was adamant that great athletes riding horses at the extremes could do what they found best, but his teaching was geared to normal people safely riding normal horses.


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## bsms

*Weird ride today!*

Had an odd ride on Bandit today. Short, too. I was riding alone and stayed in our little arena. After a couple short trots, I mostly just relaxed and was thinking about other things. Wasn't paying attention to Bandit other than 'go left', 'go right', 'go straight'. He does that without any effort either, so just walking around for 15 minutes or so while I was thinking about other things in my life. Sometimes it is easier to think when on a horse.

Then he stumbled. Well, not really stumbled. Didn't feel like a stumble and there was nothing to stumble on, and his tracks didn't indicate a stumble. He just...went down on his knees. May have caught himself in time to avoid putting his nose in the dirt, but if so, barely. We were just strolling along...and he dropped to his knees.

Startled us both. Maybe this is weird, but it seemed to me like he just fell asleep while walking forward. I've no idea if horses ever do that. I was on autopilot. He was on autopilot. And suddenly, "What the HECK?!"

He got up quickly. I asked him to move forward and he started cantering. Slowed him, got him to walk a few steps, then he cantered again. Loped, actually. SLOW lope. Cantering with plenty of back movement, but at a walking speed. Stopped him. He didn't want to walk and it took a little work to get him to trot - with a big trot. Did a few more short canters and finally got him walking again.

After 5 minutes, I dismounted. No sign of cuts. Didn't flicker when I moved my hand over his knees. No sign of a limp. But I called it quits.

*Honestly, it felt like he fell asleep at a walk.* And the fall startled him, so he wanted to move after that...except his canter involved lots of back motion but not much forward motion.

Two thoughts:

1 - The Abetta and I work well together. I could not have been caught more off-guard. But I didn't go anywhere, either. It fits my body well enough and is grippy enough that my seat just stayed where it was with no conscious thought on my part. That is good.

2 - I think Bandit's background makes cantering his "comfort" gait. When in doubt, canter. Trotting with very heavy guys on him probably taught him trotting can hurt. And he wasn't allowed to do a lot of walking. So...when in doubt, canter.

I would love to have had a video. Would a canter like that, with lots of movement but very little forward motion be a collected canter? I sure as heck can't say based on feel, since collection and I are strangers.

I saw no signs of injury while walking him back to the corral. And while untacking him, he seemed almost affectionate, as if he was pretty shocked and glad I didn't make a fuss about it. He acted like he wanted some reassurance, so he got face rubs. Then he put his head against my chest and sighed, which he never does. I told him it was my fault for not paying attention. He didn't disagree, but he seemed...reassured. Mouthed my shirt with his lips, which I never allow. But did this time. Then took him back to his corral.


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## tinyliny

it's another examply of how being relaxed (limp) can keep you from being catepulted, which is what happens when you are braced (stiff).

I've had hroses go down on their knees under me , maybe 5 or 6 times. Twice at the canter, where I was lawn darted into the ground. HARD falls! scary, too. the other times, I went forward a bit, and bounced off the neck with my hands, (I don't have a horn/ large pommel like a western saddle). or, just sort of rolled off the neck if the horse couldn't right himself immediately.

in all the cases where I didn't actually lawn dart, it was the 'whiplash' to my neck from going down, and then quickly back up, that was the most disconcerting.

and , the concern for their knees.


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## Dragoon

Sounds like he was embarrassed, and asking forgiveness!

No, really...they don't have human emotions exactly, but...
Since he is a part of your herd of two at that time, and screwed up, he needs reassurance from the herd boss. He likely expected a reprimand. A kick or a bite would have been delivered, were you a normal equine. I think the canter was nervousness anticipating a kick or bite from you. That he knows he just earned. 

Now, why did he stumble? Has something made him go longer than normal without sleep, like wind, storms or pestering bugs? Tuned too much to your state of mind (dreaming_)?


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## bsms

^^ I think we were both daydreaming. A rare warm, sunny, windless, quiet morning, walking, relaxed, drifting, relaxed..."_You are getting sleepy...very sleepy..._"


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## bsms

Expanding on a comment I made on gottatrot's journal:



gottatrot said:


> ...For some reason I was thinking of riding Amore, and the term "get out of his way" made me think of how little and spry she is and what a fine line between getting out of the way and falling off her.....


One thing I'm noticing is that "staying out of his way" also makes "staying on" harder! Not surprising, since the faster he can accelerate or change directions, the tougher it can be to stay with him.



> "It was true that...the encumbrance of my reins seemed to be an outstanding recollection. *Portia, untutored and untaught, had developed for herself a way of turning very similar to that of the American cow-ponies.* At my signal, down would go her nose, her front feet would jam into the ground, and she would swivel round on a pivot.
> 
> *Frequently the action was so sudden and so complete that I had difficulty in keeping up with her.* Often the momentum carried by my body was so great that had it not been for the knee-pads on my Toptani saddle, I am sure I would have sailed into space. *When turning like this, Portia never showed the slightest tendency to slip...not only without losing speed but without loss of balance*. As soon as I got used to turning on the edge of a precipice (as this felt like) I quite enjoyed it." - Adventures Unbridled - Moyra Williams 1960, Page 144


Consider this spook:








​
Apart from the head still looking toward the threat, that is pretty close to how Bandit will suddenly reverse course in the corral.

If I try to ride it out "properly", maintaining a vertical line from shoulder to hip to heel, I'm screwed. It is like when Larry Trocha was asked why he didn't teach a "classical seat". He said it was because he taught cutting and reining and he wanted his students to stay on their horse!

But suppose the above rider was about to ASK the horse to suddenly reverse course, and put his right foot forward and leaned back and left as it started. He'd stay with the horse and the horse would have gone from
​ "_Westward Ho!_"


to 
​ "_East bound and down _
_ load it up and truck it_
_ We gonna do what they say can't be done_
_ We've got a long way to go and a short time to get there_
_ I'm east bound *just watch ol' Bandit run*_"

---------------------------------------------------------------​ 
I've argued that "dressage", even if thought of as just 'training', is not universal since a person might train a horse to do things contrary to anything recognizable as dressage. I've argued that the basics of riding cannot be divorced from the goals of riding, and that what many teach as 'fundamentals of all good riding' have nothing to do with how I wish to ride.

I haven't ridden anything as violent as that with Bandit in the arena, but I've ridden motions like that on both Mia and Bandit many times when they spooked. Not sure how to teach Bandit it is OK to do that just because. When we're in an arena, that much energy seems like a waste of energy to Bandit.

But the idea remains: If Bandit knows how to do it, and if I can learn to stay on while he does it, then it is OK for him to do it to meet our desired outcome.

I've watched some videos recently on working with show jumpers (Bernie Traurig). They discuss the need to collect the horse so it can make the tight turns needed to get set up for the next jump. Seems to me that if you taught the horse to turn similar to the one in the picture, you could jump a fence, turn, and jump it in the opposite direction lickety-split, without collection. Although possible without his rider on the return jump, too!

As an added bonus, if we taught horses and riders to turn like this, we'd also be teaching how to stay on in a spook. The problem with a spook is that the horse is choosing to move as HE (or SHE) already knows how to, only the rider hasn't learned how to stay on while it happens.

At the end of a canter, Bandit often drops to a fast trot then spins 180 and stops. I joke it is like the flourish on a fancy signature, kind of a "_Yeah, I can do it!_" moment.I have no idea how to teach him that is acceptable to me as a way to turn. He has had enough stress on his legs from his previous life, and has such a narrow base of support, that I don't want to push him to do sudden turns just for practice. And he already knows how to do them if there is a need. I just need practice to learn how to do them with him...and not find myself sitting on the ground, watching him finish the move without me!

PS - Something I've concluded from watching Bandit zip around in the corral: *Horses don't value circles. They do turns.* When I took lessons, the two instructors I tried both emphasized teaching a horse to do nice circles instead of octagons. But horses are very practical. No horse gives a rat's rear end about making a flawless circle. They do "turns" - going from one direction to another. Only humans value beautiful circles traced on the ground by their horse's feet...

In Bandit's 'training program', I've abandoned circles. To the extent we work on things in an arena, we now work on "turns"...and horses KNOW turns!

PSS - Piero Santini's book arrived. Wish I hadn't wasted the money. Do not EVER buy "Learning to Ride" by Piero Santini. It is the worst book on riding I've ever read.


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## whisperbaby22

Interesting idea on the jumping.


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## bsms

From VS Littauer and the US Cavalry, on how a horse moves forward:



> Not only the movement of the horse, but that of all animals, including the human being, *is based on the losing and recapturing of equilibrium*. In walking, for instance, a man shifts his balance forward, taking it off the foot which is left on the ground and catching it again on the one which is being put down ahead of the body, aiding himself with balancing gestures of his arms. *If he were to carry on his shoulders a monkey who, with some arrangements of ropes, were to try to keep his torso back and confine his arms it would certainly make the man nervous, awkward and impede his progress forward.*
> 
> *The repeated loss of and retrieving of balance is more pronounced at fast, free gaits than at slow, collected ones*. The horse's ability to maintain balance during fast movements and the jump depends on his strength and agility and knack of using those two factors. Exercises which call for rapid changes from slow collected to fast extended gaits unquestionably develop this important agility; but the mere fact that the horse is well balanced at collected gaits does not mean that he will automatically have as good balance when moving free. This is the glaring mistake in the passage which I have quoted from my first book which, as a matter of fact, only repeated the then popular conceptions.
> 
> The correct, intelligent understanding of the horse's balance in motion is very well expressed in the Fort Riley Cavalry School's manual HORSEMANSHIP AND HORSEMASTERSHIP, 1945 edition; in essence it says:
> 
> "Theoretically, movement is determined by the various positions of the center of gravity with respect to the base of support. In the state of rest the center of gravity is sustained by that base. *Movement is but disturbance of that equilibrium, the members intervening to steady the mass and prevent a fall.*" (page 207)
> 
> On page 208 we find the following axioms:
> 
> 1) "With rare exceptions, as soon as the horse is mounted, the natural equilibrium is disturbed by the rider's weight."
> 
> 2) ". . . the voluntary or involuntary actions of the aids provoke numerous contractions so that a part of the horse's muscular power is employed in resisting the rider . . . the less the horse resists his rider, the better he can balance himself."


The same is true for how a horse turns. It displaces weight in the direction of the turn and then "falls" in that direction, and would actually fall if the inside leg didn't catch it. The losing, and then recapturing of equilibrium - only to the side instead of directly to the front. 

We do it too. If you trace a circle in the ground and then try walking it while keeping a foot on each side, equidistant from the line the entire time, you will feel how awkward it is to turn without any disturbance in our equilibrium. Moving forward, we also fall forward and catch ourselves, fall forward and catch ourselves. We never move "collected", keeping our weight constantly even on each foot.

A horse who moves that way, very collect and "straight" in a turn, disturbs our balance no more than a car does. But a horse is not a car...


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## bsms

On @*phantomhorse13* 's journal, I made this comment:



bsms said:


> ....He's raised his own horses, basing them on breeds who are not famous as beginner's horses. He lets the foal tag along with momma for the first few years, following her across all sorts of terrain. By the time they are broken to ride, they already have a pretty good idea of what needs to be done and how to do it. The herders need to concentrate on the sheep. The horses take care of getting the rider from A to B in one piece...
> 
> ...Still, it will be interesting to see if the ranch has the same safety record 10 years from now [after they stop breeding and training their own horses].
> 
> I know when I think of his ranch, I'll remember this...the mountains, the sheep and the grey Appy/Arabians. It will seem a lesser place if the grey horses are replaced by standard stock horses:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​


It raised this question:



AnitaAnne said:


> @bsms that is a sad change, no more lovely sane Arab/Appaloosas. The last one looks like my old Dreamer, he was an Arab/paint but went grey.
> 
> What does your friend do with the older horses?


The answer is one I find painful to think about, so I'm answering it on my own journal rather than potentially drag phantomhorse13's into an ugly area. What follows isn't a direct quote, but it is as accurate a summary as I can remember of his answer when I asked:

"_When my horses can no longer do their job, I sell them at auction for whatever I can get. Assuming I don't just find their corpse in the pasture one morning._"

He could see I was startled, so he went on:

"_This is a ranch. A business. I've got thousands of sheep, a few hundred cattle. Used to have 50+ horses, but I didn't need that many so I sold the excess. And when you own thousands of animals, you see death all the time. It would be kinder to shoot a horse who goes blind or crippled, but this is a business. I lose money as many years as I make money. When I make money, I make less than lots of office workers. If I don't make enough profit often enough, I'll lose everything I've spent a life building.

If a horse gets sick, we compare the likely vet bill to the price of the horse. An experienced horse is more valuable to us, but still...a big vet bill ahead means a dead horse.

Most of our horses die during the night. We go out and see a corpse the next day. Usually don't know why and we sure don't pay a vet to come tell us. We bury it and continue work. If a horse goes blind and I can sell him at auction, I do. If I can't sell them and they can't work, they die. With very few exceptions, we don't get sentimental about horses. 

It's a hard life. I have no retirement. I'll work as long as I can. If I can't, I've got to hope my kids will take me in. I love this life, but it doesn't cut you any slack. A few bad years and I could lose everything. So if a horse can't do the job on the ranch, and I can sell it, I will. If I can sell it to someone as a recreational horse, great. If not, I'll still try to sell it. If I can't, it dies._"

--------------------------------------------------------------

Part of me finds that repulsive. Part of me finds it refreshingly honest.

I studied to be a biologist in college. Modern humans live protected lives. We have AC when it is hot. Heat when it is cold. We buy meat at the store. We can get veggies all year around. Most people have never eaten an egg that hasn't spent time in a carton.

The reality of nature is that you struggle to live. Struggle to reproduce. Struggle to live more. Then die. Often painfully. Most of human history has been the same. You hunted. Planted crops, You were cold when it was cold. Hot when it was hot. Struggled to stay alive, and often died in pain.

The link below is not for the faint-hearted. It describes what happened when President John Adam's only daughter came down with breast cancer:

Abigail Adams Smith | History of American Women

I cannot imagine such a terrible thing! The reality of life is that it is often brutal. I get upset with the wild mustang groups who want to hold to their image of free and happy mustangs racing cheerfully across the plains. It sounds good. But that isn't reality. We talk of "Mother Nature" - but "Nature" isn't at all maternal!

My friend says Trooper is the luckiest horse on his ranch. Trooper has spent 10 years with us. Three meals a day, water, hanging around with 1-2 other horses, sometimes doing light work, feet taken care of by a professional, vet visits. He'll never go to auction. Doesn't have to work carrying someone around when it is 20 below - because sheep still need to be herded in the winter, and someone spends time on horseback with them in bitter cold! It isn't always summer or fall!

It is a hard life. I respect ranchers. But I'm glad I'm not a rancher. I don't think I have the toughness it requires. I spent one winter working manual labor outdoors when it was below freezing. Swore I'd never do it again! Spent a few summers working all day in the desert heat. Decided I wanted to find work using my head instead of my body. I like visiting a ranch. I respect ranchers. But I sure don't want to be one! It is far too close to "nature" for me.

----------------------------------------------------------

This lioness kept a crocodile busy long enough for her cubs to get across the riven, then got away herself. I bookmarked it as an example of nature and the constant struggle to survive:










Motherly pride: Brave lioness takes on deadly crocodile to allow her cubs to cross a river in safety | Daily Mail Online​


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## gottatrot

I agree. Nature is tough and unrelenting. 

To me it seems there is a balance between being cold-hearted and unfeeling, and living in some fairy tale world where reality doesn't exist.
I guess it has to be a personal decision, knowing what you can tolerate or ignore. For me, if I went out and killed animals for sport or ignored a suffering animal, I would have to harden my heart to the point where I would be capable of being a serial killer. 
I guess other people can do that kind of thing and still have a heart. I'm not against hunting for meat, but still can't imagine looking at the beautiful life in front of me, full of health and then kill it when I didn't need to in order to survive. The ranchers and farmers that do their jobs are valuable to us. Not all of us could do that kind of job, or have animals as a business. 

I don't think any type of animal is more valuable than another, if we are against eating horses and dogs we should be against eating cows and sheep too. But somehow people see it as different, like some animals personalities matter more than others. 
I know if I were starving I could kill an animal I didn't know and eat it. I'm also sure that my dog and I would starve to death together. If I died first and he ate me, I would consider that just fine. If he died first I'd eat him too.

The baby rats I saw dying at the barn, or a baby bird fallen out of the nest...I can't walk away and not think about them. Other people I know can love their own pets but say "that's nature," and walk away and somehow not think about the little creature cold, starving and afraid. In my mind it would be better to care enough to kill the creatures quickly rather than letting them suffer.

Suffering is part of life and sometimes unavoidable. Yet suffering is often worse than death. Sometimes I think that people don't see suffering enough anymore, so don't understand it, being out of touch with nature. I've seen people make their loved ones suffer terribly in hospitals, prioritizing having them alive for a few more hours, days or months even though death is inevitable. I'm sure Abigail Adams Smith would have rather died once her cancer spread everywhere rather than have someone give her IV fluids when it was too painful to eat or hold the pain medications when her blood pressure dropped too low just so she could live a little longer. 

Being one who has faith and belief in God, I see the cruelty in the world as a frequent reminder that this is not my home. "I'm just passing through." On a trip, you can have good times and bad, but in the end you're going to go home, where you really belong.


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## phantomhorse13

gottatrot said:


> Suffering is part of life and sometimes unavoidable. Yet suffering is often worse than death. Sometimes I think that people don't see suffering enough anymore, so don't understand it, being out of touch with nature. I've seen people make their loved ones suffer terribly in hospitals, prioritizing having them alive for a few more hours, days or months even though death is inevitable.


This X 1000.

When I worked in the vet ER, people used to often ask me how I dealt with animals dying all the time. They seemed quite surprised when I said that while I didn't enjoy watching animals die, what bothered me the most was the people who allowed their animals to suffer needlessly. There are worse things than death.


The question about how the rancher deals with his older/unusable horses is a tough one. I can understand that ranching is a business, but _I_ would not be able to send a horse who worked hard for me down the road (knowing that was likely the road to a Mexican slaughter house). I would much rather see that horse shot and know its fate. 

However, there are people who would call me out on shooting an otherwise healthy horse just because it's not able to work, so I know there is no "right" answer.


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## bsms

I'm uncomfortable with sending a horse who has given 20+ years of service to the auction. I don't know how much they bring at auction. But I have a hard time believing it is enough to change the bottom line on annual profit. Given the lifespan of a horse, and with 30-35 horses on a ranch, and most dying on their own...would it really involve more than a horse a year, tops?

I see cattle and sheep differently. For one thing, if you cannot sell them for meat, then there isn't much reason to raise them at all. Their primary reason for existence is to end up on the table, or to produce others who will. Also, the cattle and sheep I've been around are not, in any way, like a good horse. Not in terms of intelligence, relation to humans, initiative or excitability.

I cannot understand sending any decent horse to an auction where they might end up being shipped to slaughter. Certainly not when the slaughter involves shipping to Mexico. If it was the only way to keep my family going, I'd do it. But I suspect it isn't required. My guess is that it is rooted in how things have always been done. It is just the accepted way of doing things. It bothers me, but I'm conscious when visiting a ranch that I'm an outsider. I'm a guest, but very much a 'foreigner'. It is like seeing dog meat for sale in Korea. It bothers me but it isn't my place to object.

Back when we were college room mates, he mentioned a neighbor from Ohio. I asked him how long his neighbor from Ohio had lived there. He paused, then laughed, and said his "neighbor from Ohio" had lived there for over 40 years...but everyone thought of him as the guy from Ohio. He was still a 'foreigner' after 40 years.

Like a tourist, I can observe. I can try to understand. But I'll never be part of that culture.

PS: I'm a military brat who spent most of his adult life in the military. I've flown combat missions. I know pacifists. I respect them. But I flew missions and went to Afghanistan doing staff work. Lots of people would ask how I could support killing people. I've discussed "Just War" theory and had people stare at me as if I was from Mars. I'm not claiming any virtue. I fully understand looking at someone and saying, "You just don't get it."


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## phantomhorse13

bsms said:


> Also, the cattle and sheep I've been around are not, in any way, like a good horse. Not in terms of intelligence, relation to humans, initiative or excitability.


This is a very poor picture of me and Chuck, Lani's Jersey steer:










Chuck lives with Lani and Kathy's horses. He is supposed to help teach the young horses not to be afraid of cows.

Chuck is halter broke and has actually carried a rider on a couple occasions (and yes, alcohol was involved in those occasions). He will come when called. He will open gates with certain kinds of latches and will take the grazing muzzles off his pasture mates if they have normal buckles. He finds the round bale feeders to be excellent toys and can often be seen shoving them all around the pasture.


Which animal species are valued as companions vs pets varies wildly by society. Most livestock (pigs especially) are just as intelligent as horses, but we generally don't see it because they live in unobserved feral groups. Most Americans would never consider eating a dog, but they are bred as food in other countries..


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## carshon

the question of what to do with older non-usable horses is age old. For many that board or have limited space the dilemma of feeding and having space for an unusable horse for 10 or more years is a deal breaker. Even in my local area Craigslist is full of ads for horses in their 20's that are pasture sound or light riding only and looking for a "forever home" I too would find it almost impossible to rehome a faithful equine companion just because it is no longer ridable. Fortunately I have the space and money to feed a horse like this. For those "looking" for the good homes for their aged friends they are willing to believe any story of a future home just so they do not have to make the decision to euthanize.

I am not anti-slaughter - and have no issues with those that want to eat horse meat, dog meat, goat meat etc. As long as the animal is raised and ultimately slaughtered in the most humane way possible.

We raise a small group of steers every year - and they are spoiled and named, you can pet them and they will eat treats out of your hand. But when it is time for them to go in for processing I look forward to the steak and hamburger they will produce. It is a sad say when they have to go in but I know that I have raised them with love and kindness, something they would not have been given in a feedlot.


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## whisperbaby22

In my area I also see lots of these looking for a forever home for my unridable horse ads. In my opinion it is part of the problem with people wanting animals without the hassle of really learning how to properly manage them.


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## egrogan

And here I've been for the past month looking for a companion-suitable mare needing a retirement home and there are virtually NO ads like that in my area- I guess it's just the time of year, as pasture is finally in here so people are a little less pressed. In November those ads will start popping up again.


(PS- I did end up finding a semi-retired mare looking for a good home, thanks to @*phantomhorse13* overhearing a conversation while she was doing a ride in my neck of the woods!)


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## bsms

It is a tough problem. My horses have been young enough and healthy enough that I haven't needed to think about it - AND they already have "light riding" duties. But Cowboy is 20 and Trooper is 19. I may need to face those issues in a few years.

Like @*carshon* , I have the option of keeping them while they are healthy, even if not very rideable. The farrier was here yesterday. I thought he didn't own any horses any longer, but he said he had two lawn ornaments who hadn't been ridden in ages. He has no problem with keeping them until they show signs of pain. But he & I don't need to pay $500+ /month / horse to keep them, either!

I guess if my friend said he shot his horses when they were no longer useable, I'd have no real problem. It IS a ranch and making a profit is an annual problem. If he could haul them to town and have them slaughtered, I wouldn't object. But selling them at auction, knowing they will be hauled to Mexico for slaughter?

That bothers me. And I know he could see it in my face. But it is no more my place to tell him what to do than it was to lecture Koreans in Korea about dogs. And as @*phantomhorse13* pointed out, my fondness for bacon is in part because I refuse to think about how pigs are kept, treated, and slaughtered. Pigs are quite intelligent, and apparently even cows can be quite the individuals.

Many years ago, I dealt with tame deer and tame elk owned by Utah's Division of Wildlife Resources. Since then...I've had no problem eating deer. I haven't had a bite of elk, though. I found them too much like horses - friendly, inquisitive, curious, and rather playful.

I don't know how I would handle it if I was a rancher with a few thousand animals and 30-50 horses. Maybe the same as my friend. Modern American life allows me to hide from reality. My bacon is bought already wrapped...as Doc Holliday says in Tombstone, "_It appears my hypocrisy knows no bounds._" Socrates supposedly said at his trial that "_The unexamined life is not worth living._" I'm not too sure any human life can stand too much examination.


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## egrogan

I have had chickens for ~6 years now and haven't eaten chicken since. Even my husband can't eat chicken wings anymore. I'm mostly vegetarian, but will occasionally have a turkey sandwich. Can't begin to explain why I can do that but not chicken. And cognitive dissonance bugs the hell out of me! :wink:


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## bsms

​ *
Bandit before the ride. *​
It is how he rode today, too. No idea what it was about, but he was on pins and needles. I dismounted part way and dropped the stirrups a hole. As it turned out, he never spun or balked and only went sideways once. But until we got within 300 yards of home, he felt like he was going to spin within the next few strides.

My daughter was on Trooper. He was nervous too. She said it wasn't Bandit...just Trooper not being happy about something. After 10 years together, I trust her analysis of Trooper. So we turned coward, returned home earlier than planned, and I let Bandit canter a few laps at the end. He & Trooper are still Looky-Loo in the corral, so it wasn't me, wasn't the neighborhood and wasn't the desert. No idea what it was, but I ride for fun. And I don't think it was much fun for any of the four of us today.

Tried the smaller pad with the Abetta today. The sweat marks - and Bandit worked up a tension sweat on a 30 minute ride in beautiful weather - seemed fine. I'll try it some more. It looks better with the small Abetta.

Some days are diamonds. Some days are coal. Today was a coal day. Oh well.


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## carshon

Best to trust your gut. Obviously something was in the air - and as long as its not the flying body of a rider then best to let the horses figure it out from home.


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## bsms

carshon said:


> ...something was in the air - and as long as its not the flying body of a rider....


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Indeed. I've got about 2500 hours in military jets. Unless the Air Force wants an old fart to come back to fly...I'll be content if my flying days are done!


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## whisperbaby22

Bandit looks terrific. I know he is "up" in this photo, but he is a beautiful horse. And I like the saddle.


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## bsms

Bandit & I did our first solo trip out in at least 7 months. I was planning on some arena work, but there was no wind, a blue sky, no one who wanted to ride with me...and what the heck! I walked him on the paved road past the houses with barking dogs and strange horses. One of the horses kept calling out. Bandit didn't approve. I think both of us were glad I was on solid ground, leading.

On the dirt road, I mounted up. I've decided my stirrup length will depend on where I'm riding. One hole up in the arena, where we do a lot of trotting. One hole down in the desert, where I like my legs to hang loose.

I just edited a short clip from the trailer for the movie Hondo. John Wayne was in high school in the early 20s. He was doing westerns in the 30s, where many of the extras would have learned their riding in 1900. Or earlier. So this may be a pretty good example of how that older style did a gallop:






I mention it because I'm probably one of the few who have ever tried that approach in the last 20 years. Not for galloping. That would feel freaky. But I find it is a very STABLE position. STABLE is good in a cargo plane. Bad in a fighter. If you want your horse to perform his best, ride him like a fighter. But if stable seems good...use him like a cargo plane.

Since he hadn't been solo in ages, my position today was much like Wayne's - feet forward and out, with 3 points of the triangle for stability. Bandit was tense. He'd initiate a trot. I'd stay STABLE and give a big, loud sigh. He'd slow to a walk, until he felt tense again. Then he'd trot, I'd stay stable, give a big sigh, and he'd slow. By our 4th trip on the dirt road near us, he was...well, blowing snot. Not HAPPY to be there, but less tense. 

So we called it a day. I'm having problems finding anyone to ride with me, so Bandit & I may make a project of learning to go out alone. I think I'll plan on short rides, several times a week, and try to slowly stretch him into 60-90 minutes rides in the local area he knows so well. He may come to enjoy it as a chance to go stretch his legs and burn some energy.

He didn't enjoy it today, but he stayed willing. If he acts like he's miserable, we'll stop. If I see improvement, we'll keep it up. Maybe even get to riding him in a normal position while solo...

Well, I can dream, can't I?

Of course, one never knows when one may need to draw a gun and shoot someone behind you...


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## gottatrot

I'm impressed with how well John Wayne gives his reins forward at that speed. He really follows the movement of the horse's neck. Doesn't look tense at all either. 

Solo rides are difficult on many horses. I'm hoping to get Hero well versed in going out alone too.


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## bsms

I was told on the forum a few weeks ago that the position he was using was unbalanced and would cause a rider to fall off. I have ZERO desire to ride a gallop in that position...but Wayne was stable enough to pull a gun with one hand and turn and shoot (blanks - real guns recoil a lot harder!) - and he followed his horse's mouth surprisingly well for an actor in slow motion using a curb bit!

There are many things we cannot ask a horse. And I've given up hoping to find a study looking at back pressures on a western ridden horse using various approaches to riding. But...what has been done can be done. That's a pretty small horse hauling butt with a pretty big man riding "wrong". It may be the horse was sore the next day. Or it may be that style isn't pounding the horse's back as much as some people claim. It raises a question in my mind. Unless I buy a pressure pad, though, I'll never KNOW the answer...:evil:

Gincy Self Bucklin wrote a book How Your Horse Wants You to Ride: Starting Out, Starting Over. She describes a variety of "seats", using an English perspective. But she discusses one for a few paragraphs that sort of sounds like what Wayne was doing, and what I sometimes do at a walk or easy trot. I'll transcribe it sometime and post it in my journal as food for thought.

Since horses cannot tell us and since researchers aren't interested in things that interest me, I'm left with looking around the riding world to see if something is universal or if it is merely TAUGHT as universal. An example would be the idea you are in danger of being dragged if you dismount while leaving one foot in the stirrup. I find that hard to reconcile with the folks who dismount from a moving horse all the time in their sport - while leaving one foot in the stirrup until almost down. Differences in tack, yes. But exploring how those differences can lead to different outcomes is about the only way I can learn. Too many things about riding and horses are just accepted without question because "my instructor told me..."

There has been an ongoing thread about stirrups and footwear to avoid being caught in the stirrups while riding out. I've been tempted, but have resisted posting there, this picture:









​ When I asked, I was told if the sneaker gets caught, the sneaker comes off the foot. Ummm....*NOT for me!* But it kind of goes against the idea one MUST wear top of the line cowboy boots with a big heel to prevent being dragged.

Of course, they seem to use the stirrups for mounting and dismounting, not for "riding". Maybe they simply "fall early and avoid the rush at the end"? Maybe it is safer to fall off a horse cleanly as the horse accelerates past 10 mph than to hang on for dear life until the horse is hauling butt across rough terrain, or throwing a fit that can slam your foot thru the stirrup before one falls?


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## Dragoon

Hello
I looked at that book by Gincy on Amazon...it has tons of positive reviews!
Do you yourself recommend it? 
I do love books, but have purchased a few that were...meh....


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## bsms

Riding Bandit yesterday, he was kind of owwwyyy. I think the farrier took off too much sole Tuesday. Then he and Trooper were playing a few hours later, racing and twisting and jumping and spinning - all in a corral that is only 90' long. My guess is he has bruised his foot to match mine. So we turned back early yesterday & I decided he'd be "arena & street" only for at least a week, maybe two.
@*egrogan* posted this picture of a covered bridge near her new home:








​ 
My comment:



bsms said:


> Bandit would take one look at a bridge like that and offer to swim across...
> 
> He got jumpy yesterday, during the final 25 yards home. Why? The lady across the street had the back of her hatchback open.
> 
> "OMG, look at the size of that mouth! And you expect me to walk past it?"​
> Well, he did. In the end. Sort of. Wasn't a pretty sight, though. *The final 25 yards home*! :shrug:
> 
> But a bridge like that? We'd have to swim for it.


Yeah, he got all jumpy in the final 25 yards. Maybe I should try to register him as a half-Arabian, although his sire doesn't have papers. I'm not sure he'll ever meet my goal of becoming a beginner's horse. Like his former owner said, *he is really good except when he is not*...:icon_rolleyes:

So today I rode him in the arena, focusing on relaxing. I'm concerned about the white hairs on the bridge of his nose. He's always had some there, but I'm worried it may be getting worse with the Dr Cook's. Need to take a picture and then compare a few months from now. For today, we went back to a snaffle:








​ 
We focused on relaxed. I want to take the next few weeks to work on using the slightly shorter stirrup. Makes me feel like my leg is squished, but it really is only one hole up from "hard to keep my stirrup". What I've done has worked, but if I can get used to a little shorter stirrup, I think I can do better. Since we have some arena time ahead, why not?

Well, a couple of minutes later he spotted the comforter being aired out on the metal swing seat in our front yard. No wind, so nothing flapping. But...*it wasn't there yesterday!*

"_Oh! Blow! Snort! Shift sideways. Shake head. Blow! Snort! You're giving me slack rein? OK, trot away quickly with my head twisted around. 'Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty!'_" ​ 
The original quote is one Bandit messed up, although it is close:

“The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance.” - John Philpot Curran, 1790. But I doubt John Philpot Curran said it while trotting away from a comforter!

So I got to practice riding with a shorter stirrup, trying to keep my legs loose, while Bandit made it clear he took no comfort in the comforter. For 10 minutes or more, we kept the comforter on the beam, while I sang "The Boredom Song" (counting to 12 in a sing-song voice), proving that * I * was relaxed and bored, even if Bandit was not.

Then a moving van pulled into a nearby driveway on the other side of the arena. Suddenly, the comforter was no threat, not compared to the moving van! So we did more work, the comforter ignored and the moving van on the beam, until Bandit finally gave a big sigh and released some of his tension.

After 30 minutes, we called it quits. It was a beautiful morning, 75 degrees, and he worked up a sweat. OK. He tired me out too. Tomorrow will be a new day. As Jesus put it: "_Therefore don’t worry about tomorrow, because tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own._" (Matt 6) And if there is no REAL trouble...well, Bandit can imagine some! New day, new threats! Eternal vigilance! That boy plans on living a LONG time...


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## bsms

Dragoon said:


> Hello
> I looked at that book by Gincy on Amazon...it has tons of positive reviews!
> Do you yourself recommend it?
> I do love books, but have purchased a few that were...meh....


I like the book. It was one of the first I read, but it wasn't basic enough for me at that time. Since then, I've found it covers the basics well but with a lot more nuance than most books. In terms of seat, for example, she suggests there are 7 seats:

Full seat, legs in the "n" (upside down U) position

Full seat, legs in the "A" position

Full seat forward

Three Quarter seat

Half seat open

Half seat closed

Half seat balanced 

After describing the full seat "A" - with pictures - she says, "_The position you have found, full seat with legs in the A position, has several uses, none of them very frequent. The first is as a training exercise to help your body get used to the stirrups...The second is to add security to the sitting position. Suppose you are walking along the trail and you see something ahead that might cause your horse to spook and spin. Besides the other Seven Steps stuff, you would immediately put your legs in the A position to give you extra lateral stability, while maintaining your full seat to give you longitudinal stability.

Another use is if you are sitting on a young horse or a horse who has a mild back problem and want to keep your weight distributed as much as possible over his back without leaning forward. Putting a small part of your weight on your stirrups, which happens when you are pressing them outward, spreads that weight over the tree instead of only under your seatbones._" 

I think that nails it, except I've spent a lot of time on a horse who was willing to spin violently without needing to see anything out in front of her. Bandit doesn't spin often any more, but he'll swerve hard at times. And if I am nervous, as I too often am, then the "Full Seat A" position gives me the feeling I'm doing all I can and will now ride out whatever comes my way.

It also gets me a little off of his back when we go over uneven terrain, while still keeping me deep in the saddle.

She also wrote - and I found this helpful years ago:

"_Many riders find it difficult to relax their foot in the stirrup, which means grounding is impossible. Part of the trick is in having the stirrup in the right place. There is one particular spot on your foot that is intended to be the center of weight bearing. In martial arts this point is known as the bubbling spring. Riding with your stirrup under the bubbling spring will result in a foot and ankle that are truly relaxed and flexible, and will give you the feeling of strength and security in the stirrups....

Many riders have been taught to place the stirrups close to the toes. The theory behind this is that your foot will come out easily if it needs to, plus it really keeps your toes up. However, with the stirrup in this position, your foot will also come out easily when you don't want it to, plus...creates a lot of tension. This makes your ankle stiff, so while your toes may be up, your heels won't be down._"

I tend to emphasize security over all, so the best analogy I've found is in climbing a ladder. Where do you put your foot on the rung of a ladder? That is a secure weight bearing position - and everyone knows where that spot is! Put your stirrup there.

So yes, I'd recommend the book. As I re-read it years after first reading it, I'm struck by how much I've concluded after riding Mia & Bandit that was there all along.

How Your Horse Wants You to Ride: Starting Out, Starting Over by Gincy Self Bucklin. Currently, used hardback copies run under $6 with shipping.


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> Many riders have been taught to place the stirrups close to the toes. The theory behind this is that your foot will come out easily if it needs to, plus it really keeps your toes up. However, with the stirrup in this position, your foot will also come out easily when you don't want it to, plus...creates a lot of tension. This makes your ankle stiff, so while your toes may be up, your heels won't be down.
> 
> I tend to emphasize security over all, so the best analogy I've found is in climbing a ladder. Where do you put your foot on the rung of a ladder? That is a secure weight bearing position - and everyone knows where that spot is! Put your stirrup there.


I really like the ladder illustration. That is something I have a very hard time explaining to new riders. The problem is that you can't see the right spot for another person outwardly, when their foot is in a boot. So you can't really adjust their foot for them on the stirrup. The spot that works best also depends on the width of the stirrup and the size of their foot, I believe. In a narrow stirrup, if you push your foot all the way in you will be trying to balance behind your arch, near the heel. In a wide stirrup, you might need to put the foot quite far in to find support for the spot where you would stand to climb up a ladder. 

I don't think at all about putting my heels down, but find in pictures that they often are down quite far. That's also what happens naturally when climbing narrow stairs or a ladder, as your weight goes down into your foot for balance.
I've never understood the toe riding some people do in dressage. 

People ask me if Arabs are crazy and I say they have a heightened sense of self-preservation. Nothing is going to catch them by surprise.


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## phantomhorse13

bsms said:


> I just edited a short clip from the trailer for the movie Hondo.
> 
> I'm probably one of the few who have ever tried that approach in the last 20 years.





bsms said:


> I was told on the forum a few weeks ago that the position he was using was unbalanced and would cause a rider to fall off. I have ZERO desire to ride a gallop in that position.


That position is very, very common when looking at endurance racers in the Middle East:



















I personally think it looks very unpleasant and wonder how on earth the horses aren't horribly back sore.. but you see it a lot.. and for lots of miles. :shrug: :confused_color:


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## bsms

I didn't know anyone tried it for galloping any more. I think it would be exhausting, both for the horse AND the rider. However...when I do it (walk, sometimes trot), much of my weight is in my thighs. My rump is barely touching the saddle. At a full gallop, though, it looked to me like John Wayne's rump was being pushed by the cantle. I'm about 9 inches shorter, though, so maybe that has something to do with it.

I can't say I've ever tried it at a canter. Certainly not at a gallop. It might be interesting. So many things look different than they feel.

One does lose any ability to cue the horse with the lower leg. At a walk / trot, I also lean slightly forward. I figure my stirrups and my seat form an isosceles triangle, with my center of gravity inside the triangle. The triangle is my base of support. As long as my center of gravity stays inside the triangle, I cannot come off the horse.

Still...endurance racing? I'd never have guessed it!


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## bsms

I won't repeat it here. @*egrogan* 's journal has an interesting discussion going on. How it affects Bandit and I is found here, although the discussion starts earlier: http://www.horseforum.com/member-jo...l-today-*update-431322/page83/#post1970546133

@*phantomhorse13* posted a video a little before my post of riding Phin in a challenging area. I guess it inspires me to try a little more with Bandit, to realize I need to learn how to give him confidence - which also requires me to learn some confidence from him.


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## Zexious

@phantomhorse13 - The position in these photos gives me anxiety.
But I try not to pass judgement on things I don't fully comprehend. And hey, if so many people do it at such great distances, it can't be as bad as I assume. I wonder if it has something to do with the saddles manufactured there?


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## phantomhorse13

bsms said:


> *phantomhorse13* posted a video a little before my post of riding Phin in a challenging area. I guess it inspires me to try a little more with Bandit, to realize I need to learn how to give him confidence - which also requires me to learn some confidence from him.


One of my mentors (the owner of Iggy actually), once said that working with a nervous or reactive horse was like carrying around a jar and some pennies. For every good thing that happened, a penny got added to the jar. For every less-than-ideal thing, one got taken out. The goal was to end the ride with pennies in the jar. To start with, Phin didn't even HAVE a jar, but we built up our confidence in one another one step at a time, starting on the ground. IMO, it's an ongoing process any time a horse and human interact.




Zexious said:


> *phantomhorse13* - The position in these photos gives me anxiety. But I try not to pass judgement on things I don't fully comprehend. And hey, if so many people do it at such great distances, it can't be as bad as I assume. I wonder if it has something to do with the saddles manufactured there?


I try not to either, but I have a lot of personal bias against what goes on in that region anyway.. Part of me says well it must not be that bad, but then I remember flat track jockeys used to ride like that on racehorses until someone figured out a better way. If you get the magazine Equus, Dr Deb Bennett did an fascinating set of articles evaluating the skeletons of several historic horses. One was a famous racer and the damage to his spine from the backseat style of jockey was pretty clear.. and those races weren't nearly as long as endurance races are. I don't think their saddles are any different than saddles available here, as least from what I have been told by acquaintances that ride internationally.


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## bsms

IIRC, during the decade when jockeys got off the horses' backs, there was a 6% improvement in race times. In the 100 years since, a 1% improvement. That suggests at a gallop, the cost to the horse of staying on his back is 6%. The Belmont Stakes is 1.5 miles, so 6% would be 475 feet (over 150 yards). HUGE in racing!

But for a 90 minute ride in the local area, it would be like riding 95 minutes instead. Pretty trivial.

I suspect the impact on times would be greater if trotting or cantering. My trotting is always short distances. 300 yards is a long trot for us. My horses all seem to strongly prefer trotting when I use two point - which you CAN do with your feet somewhat forward. Cantering? The way the horse uses his back, with a real revolving motion using the withers as a stable point - seems to me flowing with the motion would be critical. However, when your feet are that far forward, your center of gravity is moved forward. So...maybe the average work being done by the horse may not be so bad?

I don't know. I thought of trying to get my youngest to video Bandit and I trying it in our little arena today, but went for a run on my two legs instead. And now it is too hot and I'm too pooped to try!

I'm guessing what the Middle East riders are doing looks worse to us than it feels to the horse. But my time stationed in the Middle East didn't give me a lot of trust that anyone would care if the horse was being abused. Neither Saudi Arabia nor Afghanistan struck me as supportive of HUMAN rights, let alone rights for "lower animals". Heck, I'd have been killed within a half mile of the FOB if I had been stupid enough to walk off the FOB alone. Maybe that makes me a biased observer. Oh well. I'm just glad I never have to go back...and in fairness, they are probably glad I'm not coming back, too.


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## bsms

​ 
OK, I tried that way today. Or tried to try.

Couldn't do it. If I try to shove my legs that far forward, the 2" nylon stirrup straps and fenders get twisted up under my leg, leaving my leg WAY off of the horse and uncomfortable to boot! I could only get there by grabbing the horn, twisting and shoving my leg forward - and then it left me heavy in my seat!








​
The farthest forward I can get my feet without things twisting up is with the stirrup near the front edge of my saddle, and my heels roughly at the rear edge of the cinch. That puts the back of my heel just in front of my belt buckle. A British Army manual from the early 1800s recommended dropping a plumb line from the soldier's chest. It recommended the back of the heel be 1 inch in front of the plumb line.

In my case, a plumb line dropped like that would get caught on my belly.  But I think my forward leg position, at the most, is about that spot. In that position, my heels jammed down lifts my butt just off the surface of the saddle. Kind of like an invisible two point.

I took this a while back. It is my resting position. Full forward, to me, puts my heel about where the stirrup is in this picture, and my stirrup about where my toe is:








​ 
These screen captures show John Wayne's leg position. His legs were a lot longer than mine, but the picture on the right is about as far forward as my leg can go without twisting my fender. Any further forward, I get heavy on my butt! But Wayne was galloping. Bandit & I mostly strolled today.








​


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## carshon

I think that the saddle size has a lot to do with his posture in those snap shots. We went to a John Wayne museum in his hometown and was amazed at how SMALL the saddle was that he rode in for one of his movies. He was a big guy and the saddle was a 15" seat at best. The saddle was almost flat in the cantle area (like a lot of older saddles) and the stirrups hung way down. As you can see he rode almost straight legged and probably used his thighs an knees a lot for stability - saddles have changed a lot since then.

I still have the $10 saddle I learned to ride in - it's probably 60 years old and has a short forward horn and almost no cantle to speak of and the pommel was small. we rode western pleasure, barrels, poles and plugs in that saddle - but believe me you had to have a good seat because there was nothing on that saddle to hold you "in"


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## bsms

I've ordered Cavallo Sport Regular Sole Hoof Boots for Bandit, Size 4. Measured his front feet today, a few days after his last trim. Got 5.25 wide by 5.125 long on one foot, and 5.25 wide by 5.25 long on the other.

Not bad, given his hooves were 4.5 inches across when he got here. He's right on the border, though, between sizes. So I went with the larger. Guess I'll find out when they get here. Mia, Trooper, Lilly & Cowboy have never had a problem. But Bandit does. If this works, his life will be much easier!


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## Zexious

@bsms - Do you think maybe some of why you couldn't replicate that position is because of the structure of your saddle? I feel like these types of fenders can be pretty rigid, and easy to force forward.
I know I could, more or less, replicate this seat in an english saddle, as the stirrup leathers would offer no hindrance to my attempts. Not that I would want to, of course xD!


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## bsms

I'm pretty sure I could replicate it in my Aussie saddle. The 1" English straps would probably allow it. It wasn't until I tried it that I realized my western fenders - even Abetta 2" nylon ones - just wouldn't do it.

I've long argued that feet forward can make a good defensive riding position. I still believe it, but you can take a good thing too far. I'll try it sometime, though, with my Aussie saddle.


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## bsms

Hoof boot fit for someone who has never used them and never met anyone who uses them:

Bandit is right on the border for Cavallo hoof boot size. They recommend going one up. The boots arrived today and would hold a 5.5 inch foot. His are 5.25. It is sunset and they are eating. I put one on his left hoof. It obviously goes on. It will not twist 90 degrees, but I can shift it back and forth a little - maybe 15 degrees of rotation? This was holding his foot in the air.

I don't want to start riding him in a try out tomorrow if the boots are too big and need to be sent back.

Looking at some videos, it looks like I'm supposed to snug them down after his foot is back on the ground. Is that right?

The good news is the velcro zip sound didn't phase him in the least. Unlike when we put a fly mask on Mia and it took an hour of hard work to get it off (blunt end scissors). Bandit was busy eating and didn't seem to give a rat's rear about it one way or the other. I was worried he'd freak and I'd be chasing him around the corral, trying to get him to stop long enough to get the boot off.

How much can the hoof boot wiggle on the foot and still be OK?


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> How much can the hoof boot wiggle on the foot and still be OK?


That is a tricky question. Also, is that the larger hoof and how is it on the smaller one?

Unfortunately, I have limited experience with Cavallos, have only used them a couple of times. In general, the type of boots that go up to the pastern such as Cavallos have more flexibility with the sizing. The boot should never be able to turn all the way sideways or especially not turn all the way around. Fifteen degrees sounds minimal. Since you're barely into the hoof trim cycle, I'd say you probably need that room so the boots fit throughout. 

Yes, you snug the boots tighter once the hoof is back on the ground. Do not put your head in front of the knee to look at things (very tempting), they will always pick up the hoof and knock you in the head. :smile:

You might want to watch Bandit moving in the boots in the arena to see how he does at faster gaits, he may have a slight learning curve, thinking about how he moves in a narrow track. The adjustment to boots usually appears seamless after a couple awkward steps, but he might have to figure out that his base is slightly wider. Cavallos are what I think of as a bit "clunkier" boot, and Halla would sometimes interfere a little in a clunky boot, although only when going faster than a canter. 

It didn't take my horses long to figure out that their hooves were invincible in hoof boots and they enjoyed kicking rocks out of their way.


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## bsms

I was trying it on the smaller hoof. They do seem HUGE on his feet, like boxing gloves on a fist. I have two worries. 

1 - We have no level ground. If it isn't uphill or downhill, then there are gullies in the paths that lean left or right. It seems like having dinner plates strapped to his feet might accentuate the problem.

2 - He moves on a narrow track. His front feet in a trot already swing out and around the other. It might be good for him to learn to use a wider base, but a 10 year old horse?

Unfortunately, there may be no way to figure it out short of trying them - and then having used $135 hoof boots if they don't work out. I guess I owe it to at least strap them on and let him walk a minute to see if there are any obvious signs of problems. It sounds like Cavallo will take boots back as long as they are clean and essentially unused. 5 minutes in a sandy arena shouldn't cause any objectionable wear.

I figured my first try at boots might not be successful, and a different pair might be needed. A pair costs a bit more than a farrier visit, but I think Bandit needs something. Iron shoes help him in the desert. Boots ought to help him more. But I pulled them out of the box and thought, "_Trash can lids for horses?_" Not sure I can ride out this:


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## bsms

Well...sending the boots back.

With the boots on, wrapped tight as I could get them, I could slide my hand into the boot! I walked Bandit for about 100 feet. My wife was watching. She said the boots were wobbling on him. It might not have helped that Bandit was walking like he was wearing snow shoes, but...if that is "right", then we'll stay wrong.

Cleaned the boots thoroughly and will ship them back. Will try again - maybe a smaller size, or maybe a different brand.

The good news is that Bandit stayed completely calm, even while lifting his feet like he was in 3 feet of snow. The velcro sound didn't even get him to flick an ear. Behavior-wise, he was flawless.

Any recommendations on alternate brands would be appreciated. Nothing too wrong with these really other than just too big.


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## gottatrot

I like the Renegades more than any other brand, myself. The only people I know of who have had issues were people who had them come off in deep mud, and I don't think you will have that problem. :smile: I personally rode them in deep mud a few times and they didn't come off for me. I lost them galloping in extreme situations a couple of times, but the boots were not damaged and we put them back on. 

Also I've used them a lot on Mustangs and Arabs, so probably Bandit has the right shape of hoof for the Renegades to fit very well. They are the only boot that I was able to keep straight on Amore's hinds, because she would put her hoof down and twist her hip and that would torque the hoof around inside many boots, especially on grippy pavement.

Amore walked worse than that dog the first time I put them on her and almost fell over. She also had issues again when I put them on her hinds for the first time. In fact, she kicked out at a dog and it was an Easyboot with a pastern gaiter, and the boot came off and the gaiter stayed on. Then she seemed to think the dog had latched onto her pastern and she was bolting in circles panicking. But even Amore quickly figured out the boots and then they didn't affect her gait.

Halla took one funny step and then was like, "I got it." That is how most horses react, maybe funny steps for thirty seconds or so. Once they have the feel of the weight and motion, they adapt intuitively. But I personally would prefer a less clunky boot if I had a narrow tracking horse like Bandit.


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## SueC

Seconding the Renegades! Also much easier to put on / take off. Am onto Set 2 of Renegades after finally wearing out Set 1 - took 5 years, and determined by shells finally wearing out - all the other parts are easily replaceable.

I'm sure you've heard me going on about Renegades before (because of expensive start trying other, ostensibly less expensive brands that simply didn't stay on), so I'll spare you the long version.

If you _do_ want a long version on hoof boots, I wrote an article about this very thing for the Australian magazine to which I contribute, and can post the manuscript if you think it might be useful to you. The article was aimed at entry-level riders / dabblers - to make them aware of this option, why, cost comparisons with shoeing, boots that stay on versus boots that come off etc. You'll already know most of what's in it because you're not a dabbler!


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## bsms

I'm considering two options right now. The Easyboot Trail Original is only $100 for a pair. The sizing has more options than the Cavallo, so a closer fit ought to be possible. Even if I only used them short term, they might tell me if boots are an option I want to pursue.

The Renegades look like something I'd have to order from the maker. They say the extra length normally isn't an issue. The Viper model has options that would match Bandit regardless - his feet are a little wider than long, and the Viper allows for that. The $200/pair....gulp. OTOH, they do offer free exchanges within 30 days, which allows a person to try them thoroughly and return them if it just isn't working. THAT is nice.








​ 
My guess is that I'll try the Renegades. The option of riding them for a couple of weeks and then exchanging if a different size is needed is a big selling point. "*Penny wise and pound foolish*" may apply!

PS: For reasons unknown to anyone but him, Bandit spooked a couple of times today. Gave 3 pretty good sideways hops at a spot he's been past...oh...400 times before. With nothing happening. But unlike Mia, he hopped sideways and a little forward into a gap between the prickly pear, then sideways until my leg was about 6 inches from the cactus, then stopped. Even as the cactus grew nearer, my mind was thinking, "_He won't go into it!_" But I was kind of ****ed because there was no reason.

He remained jumpy the rest of the ride. I walked him along the paved road on return. Told my daughter he was being a jerk and I wasn't having fun, although Bandit probably didn't think he was being a jerk. She said this was one of the few times Trooper would agree with me. Said every time Bandit got hoppy, Trooper would look back at her as if to say, "_What IS that boy's problem? Can we exchange him for someone more sensible?_" In fairness to Bandit, he was sweating hard when we got back, on a cool day and in the early morning. So he was tense about SOMETHING.

Rode him for 20 minutes this afternoon (100 deg F, sunny, 25 mph winds) in the arena. Used the solid shank curb. Used an entire Wintec foam pad under the saddle. I want to see if it gives some extra grip between the saddle and the pad. He was not thrilled about some cars, some kids running around nearby, etc. But he didn't put a foot wrong. I may go back to the solid curb. He's good in the Dr Cook's, but it doesn't give the best of releases and it seems to be rubbing his face. With the solid curb, he was neck reining beautifully this afternoon. Both are good option, but he may be easier to ride lightly in the curb. You can't get much simpler for a design and he understands it well:










Being hoppy at times...told my daughter what the farrier has told me before: "_If you wanted smooth sailing and an effortless ride, you shouldn't have gotten a Mustang/Arabian mix._" Or like his previous owner says, "_He's really good. Except when he isn't! Ride it out and keep going._"​


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## whisperbaby22

What works, works. All these new fangled expensive do dads (like a Cook's) work great for a few, but yes - rubbing could be a problem. I like your curb. Solid and functional without any give. Some horses just do better in a bit that is direct and to the point.


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## SueC

@bsms, they have a "cut back" option when you order Renegades, which I take (all around) for my horse because of his configuration (fairly round, not oblong) and I don't want him stepping into the fronts from behind. Also I get the fronts (only) factory-padded - better impact absorption where you need it, reduces wear on boots too. Measure well before deciding whether or not to cut back. You can always email them for advice.


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## SueC

By the way, I use the Originals with cut-back, haven't tried Vipers because 100% happy with first set of Originals so can't comment on how they compare.


With all your gulping about $200/pair (which I did first too, and then had to pay postage from the US to Australia as well), maybe you would be soothed by the cost comparison per year I did for Ezyboots vs Renegades vs conventional shoeing, for me. The Renegades were actually far cheaper per year than the less expensive boots because they lasted us over 10 times as long (pastern elastic material always breaking on the Ezyboots within 6 months in our case and can't be repaired) - and actually _worked_. I was getting so fed up with having to get off the horse and put boots back on, every time I didn't want to just plod along... My Renegades cost me around $120/year for my 5-year interval (including postage and spare parts). Full shoeing is $1000/year here (10 x in 12 months if you do 5-week intervals, and you wouldn't want to go longer), trimming alone is $500/year here (if 10 x in 12 months), so Renegades + trimming is $620/year. If you trim yourself, it's less; plus if you barefoot a lot, or touch up with your rasp between trims, you're looking at maybe $400/year for boots/trims because it will reduce farrier visits.


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## SueC

gottatrot said:


> Since you're barely into the hoof trim cycle, I'd say you probably need that room so the boots fit throughout.



Just on that point, if you have a horse that overstrides with their rears and tends to catch front boots going around turns etc, or you have a lot of mud or water on your rides, the other option is to buy a boot with very little room to "grow into", and keep working with the rasp once a week to keep the foot close to the original conformation - simulating an ideal wear situation. I'm doing it that way because I really, really didn't want to lose boots anymore... and in our grassy paddocks, there is ******-all wear on the feet between rides...

My (retired) farrier who usually comes once a year (more if I'm flat out) and gives me feedback / tips for my trimming recently showed me how to sharpen a hoof rasp easily. He has this bench grinder at his place with a special sort of buffing wheel, and just passes the rasp over that for a minute or two, at the correct angle to do the job. The rasp was working like new again after that, and he says he does his once a week when he's trimming (people won't let him retire completely because he's really excellent at what he does). I'll have to get myself that kind of setup; it's so much easier working with a sharp rasp than a blunt one...


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## gottatrot

I used to really have to do that hoof boot math/justification when I had both my horses going out on the logging roads. I would boot all four hooves on both Amore and Halla, and we'd wear all the way through the boots in about a year and a half with our hard riding. But the other option was shoes, and that would have been much more expensive. Or riding less (not optional).

But @SueC reminded me...I have the Vipers now but I honestly preferred the original Renegades, and I must have bought new ones three or four times. Amore also had the round hooves so I bought the cut back version and they fit her perfectly. The Vipers didn't fit her as well. 
After I started using the Renegades, three or four people at my barn bought them, seeing how easy they were to use. I timed myself once, and I think I could put on a boot in 20 seconds, so could boot up both horses in about four minutes if I tried to go fast. That's not really very inconvenient. I think I spend more time fiddling with my girth. 

The mouthpiece on your curb is about the same as the one on the Kimberwick that Hero likes. 
What do you think about independently moving side pieces, like the ones on Myler bits? Do you think they have advantages?


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## Zexious

It's a bummer the Cavallo didn't work for you, as those would have been my suggestion. What about trying one of their other models? 
Either way, let us know how the Renegades work out for you! (That green is such a cool, eye-catching color-I know: not the purpose, but a fun little bonus <3)

Sending Bandit good vibes; sounds like it was just "one of those days". Hopefully tomorrow will be better!


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## bsms

The expense isn't really that great. I buy very little tack any more. My horses don't see a vet regularly. Some say that is bad, but they have very little interaction with any other horses. They all ACT healthy. And the vet bill to have someone come tell me, "Your horses are healthy. I gave them shots." runs $400+. I need to have their teeth looked at but the person who did them no longer works in Arizona. So I'm trying to find a replacement...but the vet who did Trooper's teeth years ago managed to make them WORSE. Bandit's the only one who gets sore feet. So why complain if I spend $200/year on 'shoes' for him?

As a side note, the one time I had iron shoes put on him, the farrier only charged me $10 extra. I was surprised, but he told me I was a long time customer and my horses were child's play to handle. But he might charge more if I wanted it regularly.

More to the point, the iron shoes don't offer as much protection as the hoof boots obviously can. I'm not worried about wear or chipping. Just tender soles. Rocks! Rocks, rocks rocks! What I'd give to be able to ride them somewhere without rocks!

------------------------

Bits. I've got several Billy Allen curbs with moving sides. Mia did very well in them. Trooper and Cowboy seem fine regardless of what is in their mouth - maybe because they are almost always following my horse! Not much need for a bit in a horse who is following someone else.

The old guy who told me to try the solid shank curb said it was better for neck reining than one with moving sides. I've always used an "opening rein" a lot. The swiveling sides probably are better for that. But I'm starting to think the old guy was right. Bandit has always responded well to neck reining. He responds a little better with the solid bit. 

When he gets hoppy like yesterday, I can shove my heels down and a little forward, put one hand on the horn to help keep my shoulders over his back, put my left hand forward so the neck rein cues are halfway up his neck - and we can handle "very scary things" with excellent responsiveness from Bandit. And if the cinch holds and the saddle doesn't slip, I'll go anywhere Bandit goes.

Myler bits bend too much for me:








​ 
They say it is gentle and gives the horse tongue relief. I used to have a couple bits like that. Mia hated them. Bandit too. They both objected to very curved bits the way some people say their horses object to Tom Thumbs. Mia quickly got to where she wouldn't open her mouth. Bandit, the one time I tried, acted VERY irritated. On the ground, and then worse in the saddle. After 15 minutes, I dismounted and got another bit. Wasn't worth the fight. Put a $20 O-ring in and he calmed right down.

Lots of people love Myler bits. It is part of why I now am very cautious about saying a given bit design is "bad". Mia and Bandit have both had 20+ bits used with them. But they did NOT like curved mouthpieces! IIRC, the Cavalry taught a bit like that was "harsh" because it gave "tongue relief" by putting more pressure on the bars. All I know is a LOT of people get good results with them, and I do not.


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## SueC

bsms said:


> I just edited a short clip from the trailer for the movie Hondo. John Wayne was in high school in the early 20s. He was doing westerns in the 30s, where many of the extras would have learned their riding in 1900. Or earlier. So this may be a pretty good example of how that older style did a gallop:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IBWG3LeqVg
> 
> I mention it because I'm probably one of the few who have ever tried that approach in the last 20 years. Not for galloping. That would feel freaky. But I find it is a very STABLE position. STABLE is good in a cargo plane. Bad in a fighter. If you want your horse to perform his best, ride him like a fighter. But if stable seems good...use him like a cargo plane.


I thought that was really interesting! And comparing my late 14.2hh Arabian mare (built like @phantomhorse13's endurance Arabs as same Crabbet/Polish based breeding) with more chunky 15.2hh Sunsmart, my riding differed with these horses. I'm tall (5'11"), and that is a factor, especially in a smallish horse. I spent a lot more time off my Arabian mare's back and forward, and by request of the horse / general harmony I'm spending a lot more time on Sunsmart's back, as if in a dressage ring even on trails.

This is the mare and myself winning a bending race 25 years eek ago:










To do things like that with her, I had to get very good at not being in her way; as much as possible not hindering her movement and balance.

With my mare, when doing dressage I mostly sat, except some posting at the trot. On the trails, I mostly posted her trot (always medium to extended when covering ground on trails), mostly sat her canter, and came forward into jumping seat at a gallop, and around some turns, like in the photo above.

With Sunsmart, ditto with doing dressage. On the trails, I sometimes sit his slower medium trots, but post the faster ones (and he trots as well and fast as my Arabian mare did). But when he canters/gallops, I stay in the seated upright position much longer than I did with her, and when I tip forward into jumping seat, it is far less forward than it was on my mare. It's a different balance point on him. You kind of work out what works best for the horse and you in different situations. My mare didn't move freely at speed unless I was off her back. Sunsmart doesn't move freely at fast canters and even the slower end of the gallopping range unless I stay put. I really only come forward into jumping seat when he gallops fast, canters or gallops uphill, or actually jumps an obstacle.

He likes me in this position:











My mare could turn on a thread, Sunsmart not so much - he's a bigger boat to turn. She was capable of rapid changes in pace and direction, which made her excellent at gymkhana games - Sunsmart wouldn't be great at those. On the up side, he's more predictable and stable a mass to stay with when riding. And on the trail he's her equal in all respects, performing very similarly - and he's a much better jumper.

Sunsmart is wide chested - so was my mare. She was a hand shorter, but had about the same girth, width, and general barrel shape in the chest.











This is a riding friend in jumping seat gallopping her massive TB along the beach:











And having fun in the water:










I think it's so true what has been said here and on @gottatrot's journal - forget about "correct" as per rulebook - truly correct is what works best for you and your horse in various circumstances, will change with the circumstances, and can change with time. Every combination is different.

:cowboy:


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## bsms

The other day, @SueC, I read Larry Trocha's advice on staying on a horse. He trains reiners and cutters. He described trying to learn to ride a top cutting horse. His eventual solution was to slouch into the seat, relaxed as possible. If he felt himself getting even a little tense, he would stop and spend a few seconds trying to shake himself loose, then resume.

That is quite different from VS Littauer's forward seat. So I went out and tried it. Dropped my stirrups to my "desert-riding" position and slouched, trying to stay as loose as possible. Bandit wasn't spooking, so I had to imagine how it might work if he did. 

Then I kissed Bandit into a trot, and he felt like giving me a big striding, "_I've got power to burn!_" trot. Let's just be honest. I looked like dog poop on him until I leaned forward and got more off his back. I also started laughing, because it was the sort of trot one doesn't associate with cutting horses! As Mr Slouch struggled to catch up with my horse, it was obvious that what might be best for competitive cutting wasn't working so good for the old guy with a horse who sometimes enjoys an enthusiastic trot!

Had he shifted into a canter, it would have been fine.

You can't define "proper riding" until you first define "Proper for what?". My horse will probably always sometimes spook a few hops. I need to always ride in a way that allows me to stay on. But when he gets energetic, it is like riding a surfboard! Not many slouching surfers. 

Better to get up, get balanced on my feet, let my horse do his thing while I do mine...
:cheers:​ 







​ 
Dogs shred waves at Huntington Beach surfing competition | Daily Mail Online​


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## gottatrot

Agree with both of the above posts and was thinking along these lines today about bits. No one can say what bit will work or what riding style will work for you and your horse. 

With bits, I was thinking that it is multifactorial. The horse first has to find it comfortable just having the bit in his mouth. I don't see how some like @Smilie used the same bit with every horse, I guess if the horse didn't care for it they just learned to deal with it. But Mia and Bandit don't like curved bits, and Amore could really only tolerate double jointed bits. 

For awhile I was simple enough to think that since Amore was so picky and she liked double jointed bits, horses in general must find them comfortable. But Halla didn't like double jointed bits. 

Still, that's only step one. The horse also has to both tolerate and respond to the particular action of the bit. And then there is the other factor which is the rider and how they use their hands.
Just like there are many seats that are correct, depending on the rider, horse and what you are doing, I believe there are many correct ways to use your hands. 

This also can be highly individualized between a particular horse and rider. But I think many times the way a rider uses a bit can make it work better for them and their horses than for some other people. So the rider believes the bit is good, and it is the way they use it, but someone else might use it differently and that might not be the best bit for their riding style and hands, in regards to how it affects the horse.

Some riders have very slow hands. That can work very well for some people. I'm thinking of Daniel Dauphin's videos and how he uses his hands with horses, which I admire. 
Some people like me have very small, weak hands. Many popular reins I can't even close my fingers around. 

When I took riding lessons, it was a "one size fits all" prospect and I tried to both close my fingers as instructed and also not clench my fists, but was always being scolded for one or the other. For me thin reins, gloves so I don't drop them from my unclenched fingers, and faster hand movements make up for the weaker grip. But this also might affect what bits feel good to horses with my style. 

The Myler "comfort snaffle" is not just curved, it is also flat across the tongue. The idea of having tongue relief is not really accomplished if the bit is still flat on the tongue and when you pull back, it pulls the tongue back. I haven't used many Myler bits, but I've tried a "comfort snaffle" on Hero and he didn't care for it. He also didn't like the one I tried with a high port, which reached his palate. He seems to like a port best, but it can't be too high. I'm going to try the bit Halla liked on him, which was a low port curb. I think I'd like to have the independent cheek movement that I don't have with my Kimberwick, because I also use the opening rein a lot. But if he doesn't like it I'll keep in mind it might be about the curved mouthpiece.


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## SueC

bsms said:


> The other day, @*SueC* , I read Larry Trocha's advice on staying on a horse. He trains reiners and cutters. He described trying to learn to ride a top cutting horse. His eventual solution was to slouch into the seat, relaxed as possible. If he felt himself getting even a little tense, he would stop and spend a few seconds trying to shake himself loose, then resume.
> 
> That is quite different from VS Littauer's forward seat. So I went out and tried it. Dropped my stirrups to my "desert-riding" position and slouched, trying to stay as loose as possible. Bandit wasn't spooking, so I had to imagine how it might work if he did.
> 
> Then I kissed Bandit into a trot, and he felt like giving me a big striding, "_I've got power to burn!_" trot. Let's just be honest. I looked like dog poop on him until I leaned forward and got more off his back. I also started laughing, because it was the sort of trot one doesn't associate with cutting horses! As Mr Slouch struggled to catch up with my horse, it was obvious that what might be best for competitive cutting wasn't working so good for the old guy with a horse who sometimes enjoys an enthusiastic trot!


It's not your age, @bsms. It's just that you don't have the right saddle for this kind of thing yet! ;-)




















Very cool dog by the way!


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## whisperbaby22

Ha! I imagined something like this when I was a kid, but my imaginary setup included a fishing pole with a carrot. To go faster you reel the carrot out farther, to go right or left use the carrot to the side, and to stop reel the carrot in.


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## Zexious

@SueC - Now that's my kind of riding! xD


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## bsms

I've thought a little more about it since posting. Larry Trocha also says many cutters use their stirrups too long. Right now, I'm alternating - one up for the arena, then lower for the desert. I've never met or talked to Mr Trocha in person, but I'm sure he'd tell me my 'desert' length is too long, that I'd stay on better when a horse reacts hard if my stirrups were shorter AND I stayed very relaxed.

So...if I was riding in the desert or along the street, and we were not moving energetically and there was potential for Bandit to suddenly hop sideways...try to get and stay very relaxed, even slouch some, on my pockets in my western saddle. That was what worked for Trocha riding very powerful, cutting-bred horses. But that would also allow me to get off of Bandit's back better in a fast trot - just assume a forward seat and my stirrups would already be adjusted to allow it.

So I'm going to try that. He also warned in the same article that if you've done X for a long time, Y will take a long time to feel comfortable. I'm certain that is true. I'm starting to feel OK about riding one-handed. It changes my balance if I drop my right hand. I feel better balanced keeping my right hand at my belly button or resting on the horn, so the weight of my arm isn't just hanging on my right. Two hands for steering is better for very precise steering. Two hands are good when we're weaving between cactus and I need to be on the look-out for the "pop-up" cacti that neither Bandit nor I see at any good range:








​ 
Even these when they aren't blooming. They can hide very well in an innocent-looking bit of dried grass:








​ 
But the rest of the time, he's probably better behaved neck reining than direct reining. That also affects bit use. I've read about people using "bit hobbles" to keep a snaffle from pulling thru the horse's mouth to the other side. Really? Seems like if that is a huge worry, there are other problems that need to be addressed!

All of us have times we'd prefer to to have pictures taken, but someone below is happy and someone is not:








​ 
It certainly isn't gentler to ride with one hand, but it is a lot harder to pull sideways with one hand. Different pull, different action. I suspect riding with one hand makes some mouthpieces acceptable to a horse, and the reverse is also true. Of course, remembering your horse is a thinking, feeling being and not an ATV would help a lot of riders. I've noticed his older brother often seems to have a happier horse playing polo...just chance, I guess. :icon_rolleyes:

PS: Bandit and I don't always ride in perfect peace and harmony either. But as a rule, if Bandit is unhappy, I'm unhappy too...an equine variation on "_Happy wife, happy life_"!

PSS: I'd really LOVE to see X-rays done with a wide variety of bits and a wide variety of riding styles. I don't need a study on rollkur to figure out I don't want to do it, but how bits work INSIDE the mouth would be very nice to know. No money in it, though.


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## SueC

@*bsms* , re that photo, that's so stupid and insane! :angrily_smileys: And yet many people maintain that "the snaffle bit is the kindest bit" - total BS. In situations like polo and gymkhanas, where there's lots of twists and turns and rapid acceleration and deceleration, this is the common result of riding in the "mild, kind" snaffle with its 1:1 transmission of force from the reins directly to the jaw / lips. Most people who ride horses don't remotely have the kinds of soft hands and instant responsiveness required to be able to get away with this. I've seen this a hundred times and it makes me sick. :eek_color:

A nice soft curb is far more forgiving in situations like this - which is why my mare, in the gymkhana photo above, liked a port-mouthed pelham for that kind of competition. Far less likely to accidentally and painfully bump the horse - since a rein displacement will turn the lever a fair way _before_ it applies gradually increasing increments of force to the chin strap/flat chain, which will give warning to the horse, to which it can immediately respond by lowering its head, which will also tend to slow it down rather than have it going mad with sudden pain like happens in the situations you've depicted in your photo.

And yet many people will argue till they are blue in the face that "the snaffle bit is always the kindest bit" and "curb bits are harsh and beginners shouldn't ride in them". What monumental bollocks. Curb bits can be harsh if people keep on pulling on the reins when the horse has already given - something that requires award-winning ham-fistedness, since it requires the rider to keep gathering the reins in - with the snaffle, it just requires the rider not to follow the motion of the horse properly to cause an impact.

The understanding of physics among the general public is unfortunately not of a competent enough standard to challenge these silly dogmas that somebody invented by writing their pet theory unexamined in stone. The evidence is overwhelmingly against that one, but people keep parroting it and refusing to engage their brains in a serious way to properly understand the issue. And it's the horses who are suffering as a result.

It's not like this is new - my very first German dressage book pointed out this fallacy, and said kids were better off riding in a pelham or other unjointed simple curb than in a snaffle. Tom Roberts went into the physics of all this in detail in Horse Control - The Bit. And if you weren't asleep in high school physics classes, it should be possible to work it out from first principles. My 15-and-16 year olds in Physics class would have been able to understand this. But many riders? Oh no. :evil:

When I'm teaching a beginner, I certainly wouldn't give them any sort of bit until they have found their balance and something approaching an independent seat. They can go in an English hackamore, or a broad-strapped halter. And the snaffle wouldn't be the first bit I'd teach them on either.

/end rant


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## gottatrot

> (@_SueC_ Curb bits can be harsh if people keep on pulling on the reins when the horse has already given - *something that requires award-winning ham-fistedness*, since it requires the rider to keep gathering the reins in - with the snaffle, it just requires the rider not to follow the motion of the horse properly to cause an impact.


Yes! Good posts.

1:1 is not light pressure if you're leaning your entire weight against the horse's mouth!



> I'd really LOVE to see X-rays done with a wide variety of bits and a wide variety of riding styles. I don't need a study on rollkur to figure out I don't want to do it, but how bits work INSIDE the mouth would be very nice to know.


Me too. I know it is a good sign when horses feel comfortable enough to keep their mouth closed.

About the bit hobbles or guards...I did use them briefly when first starting Amore in a small O-ring bit. When I pulled on one rein (and I mean lightly, she was a loose cannon), she'd just open her mouth up and let the bit run through to avoid the pressure. It took her one or two rides to figure out that giving to pressure was harder than avoiding the pressure altogether. Since I didn't want to strap her mouth shut, I put bit guards on to make the bit too large to go inside her mouth.
In general, I'd agree they should not be necessary. :icon_rolleyes:


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## Zexious

I think you're absolutely right, @bsms : doing something different in riding can feel uncomfortable. The degree to which it does varies from person to person. For example, I have no issues switching from direct to neck reining/two handed to single handed riding. On the other hand, I feel horribly out of place in a western saddle. I'm sure it'd get better with just a little practice! Keep us updated on what position seems to work best for you. I think it's really commendable that you pay so much attention to it, despite having no desire to enter the showring. 

Those cactuses are so cute--probably less cute when encountering them in real life!

This picture confuses me, a little. The device below the bit doesn't look like any bit hobble I've ever seen (which are typically just a strap beneath the jaw), and this looks to be a gag bit, not a snaffle. I get that the horse in the photo is an unhappy one, and the crux of what you're saying is true, but I think some of the details are a bit off.


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## bsms

I think you are right @*Zexious* . Not exactly a traditional snaffle. My error in picking a picture. In fact, I have no idea how to describe this arrangement (click to enlarge)!








​ 
I guess my bias is showing. His older brother often looks like he is riding a happy, engaged polo horse, while the younger brother often looks...like the picture! But...I don't know what sort of bit arrangement THAT is! I know this - I won't try to imitate it on Bandit! :eek_color:

Edit: Going got the geek award now...enlarged further from the original picture:










Like rollkur - even if this works, it just has to be wrong! I mean...every once in a while, I see something that makes me think, "_What the heck?!_" Only I use a more emphatic word than "heck", but HF's software won't allow me to say what I really think!

One other comment: If I could have found good riding lessons, from someone who really knew their stuff, I wouldn't need to unlearn habits picked up by learning on my own. Unfortunately, good riding instructors - particularly good ones oriented to trail riding - are really hard to find! But if I had to do that to ride a horse, I'd get an ATV. But at least the rider was happy...:evil:​


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## SueC

If you want a more emphatic word than "heck" that will pass, try "barnacle"! 

Me, I'm still trying to find the "vomit" emoticon for when I see photos like this, but there doesn't seem to be one here. So you'll all have to imagine it! ;-)

You may find this little tool very helpful when trying to express yourself in relation to people who do these things. And, it will pass the test! 

http://www.pangloss.com/seidel/shake_rule.html

Have fun!


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## Zexious

To see more than one person refer to it as a snaffle...I definitely thought I was going crazy! xD

A snaffle applies predominantly direct pressure, and a gag applies predominantly poll pressure. So, in actuality, they're really not all that similar. To call it "not exactly a traditional snaffle" isn't really fair, as it's not a snaffle at all. 
What we see in the photo is a gag bit, draw reins, a standing martingale, and rubber bit guards. I'm still not totally sure what's going on with the piece in front of the bit. My first guess was that it's meant to act similarly to a flash noseband but, given the gaping mouth, I don't think that's the case. 

I can't really comment on the rest of the royal fleet, as I'm not familiar with them--I'm also not particularly familiar with polo. I've never played it, and I've never ridden a finished polo pony.
As for never imitating this on Bandit--I don't see why you would  While it's true that each of these pieces of tack likely serve as a bandaid (especially because they are present in such abundance), they would have no place on a trail horse plodding his way through the Arizona desert. I'm not saying what's going on in the photo's is "right", but I am saying it's important to keep a little perspective.


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## bsms

Is the rein that runs from the saddle, thru the sidepiece then to the rider a "draw rein"? It would apply direct pressure, maybe slightly less since a 2" pull might result in a 1" movement.

I'm not convinced a gag applies poll pressure that the horse cares about. I suspect the horse cares more about the pressure generated in its mouth than on its poll. Gags create a slightly different pressure than a snaffle, but it seems to me they operate similarly with linear pressure applied in the mouth. 

IMHO: There is no excuse for putting all that garbage on a horse. I think it is obscene. If you need all that [expletive deleted] to ride your horse, you need to get off the horse! Maybe give up riding entirely. Certainly give it up until you learn some feeling for your horse! I'm not anti-bit or anti-polo, but if that is the way to get a horse to obey while one plays his game, then STOP IT.

I'm willing to "use a bigger bit" for specific training goals. I'm open to lots of things I wouldn't try - like chain mouthpieces. But when a rider slaps all that garbage onto a horse's face so the rider can go play a game...it makes my stomach churn.

As a matter of morality...we sometimes NEED to have horses do things they dislike to achieve a higher goal. I accept that and understand the horse may not voluntarily comply with that higher goal. But having a good time on a polo-field doesn't justify what is being done in that photo. The rider is a *villainous full-gorged hedge-pig*, to use a phrase from the Shakespeare Insult Kit.



> While it is easy to abuse your horse mentally without noticing the little inconsiderate things which one may do without meaning harm, it is also as easy to acquire a habit of thinking about your mount as a living being. It is encouraging to realize that the horse by his nature normally tries to cooperate and be good, and it is disturbing to know how often he is not given a chance to do so.
> 
> Great satisfaction can be derived by any civilized human being out of the consciousness that he is kind to his animals, particularly those he uses for his pleasure. There are thousands upon thousands of riders in this country who have a great accumulation of delightful experiences derived from companionship with their horses. If you don't happen to be one of them I would like to suggest your trying it; it will increase greatly your pleasure in being in the saddle.
> 
> I am particularly addressing these words to a young woman who, while sitting on the horse's kidneys and pulling with all her might on the curb, was overheard to say:
> 
> *“Oh boy, ain't riding fun!"
> *​
> - VS Littauer, Common Sense Horsemanship


I don't mean any of this personally, @*Zexious* . All of us have to figure out where to draw the line. My line? I'd take a whip or a gun to anyone trying to tack up a horse of mine like that. I think it is obvious, before the rider ever mounts up, that the rider is going to be 100% about the rider and the horse be damned. Not sure if HF's software will allow that word, but I'm using it as proper English. I'd like to see the rider condemned, harshly, for smiling so happily while riding in tack that so obviously is meant to hurt the horse into submission. I honestly don't WANT to understand:

*“Oh boy, ain't riding fun!"*
​ 








BTW: The photos I've seen of his older brother playing polo always look like his brother knows he is riding "someone" rather than "something". Maybe not 100% of the time. All of us will have moments when it looks like we don't care about our horses. All of us sometimes get off balance, or misjudge something, or try a piece of tack that doesn't work the way we expect. All I'd really ask is if someone sees a picture of them riding like that, they repent. I've often counted on my horse forgiving me. They always have. They seem to judge me less by my actions than by my intentions. *Thank God for that! *I've needed their understanding!

But I don't understand how any rider could walk up to a horse tacked up like that and NOT think, "_What in the heck is going on? I need to get something fixed BEFORE I mount up!_"​


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## Zexious

Draw reins are actually intended to teach a horse to maintain light contact with the bit while still actively engaging the rest of its body (namely its hind end and topline), and moving forward into the bridle. That doesn’t appear to be what’s going on here but, again, that’s it’s /intended/ use. 

The draw reins are completely separate from the gag bit. I’ve never seen them used together in “real life”—I’m not sure I’ve ever seen them used in conjunction in photos beyond this one. 

To be fair, you don’t have to be convinced of something for it to be true  It’s valid that it will create a joint pressure—the lesser direct pressure (when compared to something like a snaffle) combined with the poll pressure is used as a training device to help a horse into a nice frame. Sometimes gag bits are used on strong horses (which is probably why you see them so frequently on the polo fields) as they provide increased control but, again, this is not its intended use. To call a snaffle and a gag the same thing is simply incorrect. 

I’m trying to deduce whether your issue is with all of these pieces individually, with the fact that they’re all piled onto the horse, or the fact that they don’t appear to be used for their intended purposes. I’m not sure you are familiar with their intended purposes (no offense intended), so I’m inclined to think it’s not the latter. 
If it’s the first of the three, then I guess I should hang up my saddle for good. I’ve used three of these things (never together). I ride Gator in a gag bit while hacking. I’ve used draw reins on green horses. Things like standing martingales are really quite common place in the Hunter/Jumper lesson arena. These are tools that are supposed to be used under the watchful eye of skilled professionals to help convey or teach a particular thing. What you see in the photo is not representative of what this type of equipment is meant to achieve. 

I believe, with soft, skilled hands, you can put a bike chain in a horse’s mouth and still have a happy mount. (Extreme example, but hyperbole seems to be the name of this game) In my opinion, the skill of the rider will always trump any piece of tack. A simple snaffle or a bitless bridle in harsh hands is infinitely worse than a gag in gentle, experienced ones. Just my opinion. 

You have posted this picture four times now, and have referenced William twice. Yes, we get it: it’s disgusting. No one is arguing with you there. Yes, we get it: William appears to ride happier horses. (Again, I haven’t seen, so I wouldn’t know)
Unless your actual point is literally simply that “The horse in this single photo has too much equipment; it’s overkill, unnecessary, and cruel” then I’m not sure what your point is. 

PS, that looks like an awful lot of hardware to me—in fact, it appears to be almost exactly the same combination of tack. Happier horse, or a more timely photograph?


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## bsms

I tried using a couple of types of gag bits. I concluded they didn't do anything I couldn't get by pulling harder - and that pulling harder wasn't the answer either. I was told the "poll pressure" would cause my horse to drop her head. With each horse I tried the gags on, I got a raised head instead - which makes sense IF the horse is responding primarily to increased pressure in the mouth and thus ignores some milder pressure on the poll.

"_To be fair, you don’t have to be convinced of something for it to be true  It’s valid that it will create a joint pressure—the lesser direct pressure (when compared to something like a snaffle) combined with the poll pressure is used as a training device to help a horse into a nice frame._"

I don't have to be convinced of something for it to be true, but when I am convinced of something, I usually can offer reasons why I came to hold a particular belief. One of the beliefs I've come to hold after trying LOTS of different bits is this:

*Horses are not engineers. They do not break a bit action down into sub-components, and then respond based on 25% pressure asking for A, 25% pressure asking for B, and 50% pressure asking for C. They just try to find a way to relieve pressure, and whatever that is, is "right".*

The horses I tried the gags on had not been taught the "right" response to the gag, and therefor did not respond "correctly" and give me a frame. That "frame" is a learned response on how to relieve pressure, not something inherent in the design of the bit.

The framing doesn't come from the design of the bit, but from the rider giving some release when the horse stumbles upon performing a "frame" and then GETTING release. That is how the horse learns the frame is the right answer. If it was due to bit design, an untrained horse would give the right answer - but they do not. Not the three I tried. Yeah, not a huge sample. But 100% is worth considering...

*I have seen no sign any horse inherently understands any bit.* It is trial and error, and release of at least some pressure at the right answer. When a pro came to work with Mia - after I had been riding her for a few years - she noticed Mia thought "pressure" meant "go to Bob". If I stood on Mia's right side, and she applied pressure on Mia's right, Mia would push - violently if need be - right (into pressure) to get to me. One of Mia's first lessons became "move away from pressure". It was one of a number of signs that convinced the trainer that Mia had never been trained to ride - that we had operated for several years off of a lot of mutual good will but no coherent training!

"_Things like standing martingales are really quite common place in the Hunter/Jumper lesson arena...What you see in the photo is not representative of what this type of equipment is meant to achieve._"

In some rare cases, a standing martingale may be needed for safety. But it really seems to me like a sign of bad former training (which I obviously was guilty of at times with Mia, just in a different area). As a tool "_used under the watchful eye of skilled professionals to help convey or teach a particular thing_", no problem. As something a trained horse needs...I've got a problem with it. And not entirely then. I've read barrel racing horses sometimes use them to brace and help their balance. If so...fine. But as a means of preventing a horse from excessive head movement - apart from a short term training device - then someone needs to ask "_Why is the horse thrashing its head around?_" Previous bad riding taught a bad habit? I understand. But needed on a well trained horse?

How about a band around the horse's face below the bit?

"_A flash is a thin strap attached at the center of a regular noseband (also called a cavesson) and secured under the horse’s chin. It is supposed to stabilize the bit in his mouth and prevent him from crossing his jaw or putting his tongue over the bit—actions that allow him to evade its influence._"

https://dressagetoday.com/instruction/flash-noseband-27218

Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noseband

Odd that I've never seen a western rider using one, yet they apparently are common is some styles of English riding. A horse can stabilize his own bit. My backyard horses do so. And if it is used to prevent the horse from evading the bit, then again - BAD TRAINING.

When Bandit arrived here, I put my Aussie saddle on him (in case things got rough) and mounted up. The first lap or two was feeling pretty good, going with slack in the reins. Asked him to trot, and he did - with slack in the reins. Then I started to take the slack out. And way before I go the slack out, he slammed on the brakes. Full stop, hard enough that I hit the poleys for the first time in years!

The next 45 minutes turned into a lesson on my being able to remove the slack in the reins without my horse hitting the brakes. I called his former owner later and was told he was ridden mostly in a bosal & the snaffle was only used as an emergency brake. Not how I wanted to ride, but it didn't take long to recalibrate Bandit.

If I can recalibrate a mustang without a flash or standing martingale, then anyone getting paid to train a horse ought to be able.

"_Yes, we get it: it’s disgusting. No one is arguing with you there...Unless your actual point is literally simply that “The horse in this single photo has too much equipment; it’s overkill, unnecessary, and cruel” then I’m not sure what your point is._"

Well, you summarized it rather well. "_It's disgusting_" - my point exactly; "_it’s overkill, unnecessary, and cruel” _- my point again!

I am aware a gag bit is not a snaffle. I had never seen draw reins used, ever. It was the rein going thru the ring to the rider's hand that I would call a snaffle. The only advantage that I can see over a traditional snaffle attachment is the the draw rein will always exert some downward pressure, reducing any thrashing of the head. 

Horses don't thrash their heads for fun. Bandit will do it when he gets a fly in his ear. But if your riding or use of your hands is resulting in a trained horse thrashing - STOP IT! Whatever you are doing that causes the horse to thrash its head, stop it! Don't get a bit to keep downward pressure. Don't tie the head down. The horse is telling you something - so listen!

If the western riding world can ride horses (and yes, we have hideous riders as well) without flash bands, without tie-downs, without "lipstick", often with slack reins, then why can't others? A rare horse might like a chain bit, but I suspect most chain bits are sold to intimidate a horse. Some of the bits sold in the western section of a tack store are obscene. And most of the western riders I know agree.

Very few people read my journal. Maybe fewer every passing month. But it is my journal and I feel free to say some things are abusive. Not always cruel. I doubt Prince Harry has ever thought about his horse. Just like the time I whipped Mia hard, he may think he is doing the right thing. I doubt his horse agrees any more than Mia did 9+ years ago. The difference may be that I listened to Mia.


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## tinyliny

I wince when I see Flash nosebands. It just looks like your are stuffing something in the horse's mouth, and then forcing it closed. That CANT be comfortable. and for what? In my opinion, you don't WANT the bit to be so 'stable'. you want it to be adaptable, and moveable. when the hrose moves his tongue and jaw to play with and reposition the bit, it helps to keep him from bracing in the jaw or poll. Classical dressage calls it 'mobilizing the jaw'. I don't think one sees a flash band on the classically trained dressage hroses. I could be wrong. I will NEVER use one.


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## SueC

Zexious said:


> A snaffle applies predominantly direct pressure, and a gag applies predominantly poll pressure.


This horse isn't raising its head and opening its mouth because of "poll pressure", but because of what is happening in its mouth!

It's exactly the same reaction as a horse getting hurt with a "normal" snaffle.

With a snaffle, the horse will raise its head to try to avoid pain / discomfort. With a curb, horses drop their head.

The getup depicted in that photograph creates further mechanical advantage over the horse's mouth by turning reins into a pulley system. It makes it easier to hurt the horse, and harder for the horse to avoid the this. To my mind, anyone who has to resort to increasing the force on a bit that acts like a snaffle needs to go back to basics in their riding. They've cut corners somewhere with the horse's training.

When there is trouble with a snaffle, the answer is _not_ to make it harder for a horse to avoid a snaffle, by turning reins into pulleys, and/or strapping its jaw tightly shut (and some people even add a martingale on top of it all to this grisly equation). News flash: Try a bit (or bitless setup) that might be _more_ comfortable for the horse, and more forgiving on the rider's flaws. If you try various bits, the horse will soon let you know what it's happiest with, and a happy horse is a horse fully capable of learning, and of enjoying its work.

People use all sorts of justifications and rationalisations for abhorrent use of gear in horse training, but situations like the one @*bsms* posted are not OK by any stretch of the imagination, and I've seen them lots of times.

In that interesting old German dressage book of mine, the author has two photographs on this problem. The first shows a snaffle setup with reins drawn through the ring as pulleys, on a jaw virtually wired shut with a narrow tight noseband, similar to what @*bsms* posted (and the author calls this a snaffle arrangement). The second is a showjumping horse in a plain martingale and plain snaffle getting into the exact same body language as the picture @*bsms* posted. I'll translate the caption: _Looking at this (first photo) brings goosebumps, and even the second photo hardly animates one to imitation. Here, desperation reigns._

And here's what he says under "_*Choose Your Means*_" on the same page:

_It would be an idealised situation to be able to stick to the simple snaffle or simple curb. But the aim to create a soft mouth does not always allow this, so it is crucial that the choice of other means is at least equal in fairness, and at the same time more functional for the situation.

In England (text from 1970s!), non-standard bits are everyday and at home, no less so with children and juniors. The style of riding there creates a comparatively long-reined and soft-handed contact to the horse's mouth, which is made simpler by such "harsh" bits, and really only made possible by them.
_
He shows a photograph of tiny German children trotting on massive Warmbloods three abreast, with relaxed, happy body language all round, horses and riders alike. He says: _Simple curbs and pelhams were permitted for children and juniors in competitions in Berlin in the 1930s. This arrangement worked well. What was taken for granted in Germany back then is unthinkable these days (1970s). "Harsh" bits in "such" hands are rejected._

_Little children's hands are generally gentle and sensitive, and they especially are in a position to manipulate such bits (curbs, pelhams, hackamores). Only as a result of rougher or numbing deadening of the mouth with thick standard snaffles, which possibly also get jammed in the drop noseband, does pulling and locking-up happen. The sensitivity dies, and the rider's hands get rougher...and with this, the situation that was, well-meaningly, supposed to be avoided, is now occurring.
_
Unlike Tom Roberts in _Horse Control-The Bit_ (the best thing I've read on the subject), this author doesn't get into the physics, or debunk myths about curbs, but he makes very similar observations on the riding.

The world isn't binary, and there are many grey areas. But, I do think that in clarion-clear situations of unhappy horses in pain, like the one in the photo @*bsms* posted, it's our ethical responsibility to draw the line, and to be 100% clear that it's unacceptable.


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## SueC

I just wanted to add: It doesn't matter who is riding in the photo. We've all made mistakes, and we've all caused our horses unnecessary discomfort, either in ignorance, or by sticking to the "correct" method as advocated by some "expert", or by turning the horse into a scapegoat for a situation that was really caused by us in the first place. I think though that in order to learn from mistakes, one must be capable of admitting the mistake, and repenting from it, as @*bsms* says - which is an old-fashioned way of saying: to change what we are doing, to make amends, to seek reconciliation.

While *villainous full-gorged hedge-pig* is a very creative mock-epithet, I would only apply it to the rider if I knew he had seen the photograph and wasn't shocked. (How many of us have looked at photos of us working with horses and not seen a problem until then? Photos can be very useful like that.) Although then I might apply *artless folly-fallen nut-hook* instead, since the real villain in the piece is often the "expert" person / people advocating such gear in such circumstances, and not backing down from it. Maybe an excellent rider could ride a horse in that kind of getup, and not hurt them - but an excellent rider could also ride them in more sympathetic gear instead to achieve their goals. I think one has to consider the lowest common denominator in these situations, and when there are problems like this, that's usually because of the rider, not the horse.

Prince Harry seems to be a fairly decent bloke in general, and to be maturing. I did very much appreciate that he spoke out for men's, and general, mental health recently, and talked about the stupid things that suppressed grief and denial can lead to in your life. Men seem to find it harder than women to seek help for childhood and other issues, and it's great when a public figure can take away some of the unnecessary stigma and openly say that they have gone to talk about these things with someone who might be able to help them work through it. Good on him for that!


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## tinyliny

that German book needs a better translator. can make all the difference in the world.


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## bsms

If my riding was photographed with telephoto lenses every day, there would be a lot of ugly pictures of me riding. I've lost my temper, been an idiot following bad advice, jerked without realizing it, pushed when I should have backed off, etc.

I've also repented a lot. One advantage is that I normally ride the same horse all the time, so I can scratch his head the next day & ask him (or her) if we can make today go better. Horses seem to judge me for my motive more than my acts, which makes me grateful!

That said, I think it is both reasonable and valuable for the community of riders to discuss what 'going too far' means. I realize we all draw the line in different spots. Some years ago, I had a long argument - and it was probably more argument than discussion, given my abrasive personality - with @Hondo about "Ask, Tell, Demand" - and when did "demand" cross the line and become abusive. 

In the time since, I think I've drifted towards Hondo's position. I've certainly defended people using whips, crops, and 'I'll make your life suck until you comply' with horses. To a limited degree, I still do - when the safety of horse and/or rider is involved. Perhaps it is because of my anger issues, but I find myself more and more rejecting that school of thought. I increasingly believe it is my responsibility, as a supposedly mature 60 year old man, to find ways to make riding about "us" instead of "me". I want to concentrate on "_How can I make my horse WANT to do it?_" instead of "_How can I MAKE my horse do it?_" Because if I have to resort to make for anything other than a safety issue, I've failed.

So many of my riding issues with Mia were rooted in me and in the riding culture I've seen around me. I was very disappointed a few years back to read a trainer I liked saying all riding was rooted in the desire for instant submission by the horse to the rider. And he accepted that goal! Maybe that makes sense for a ranch or the cavalry. But as a horse owner, I want thinking cooperation, not instant submission! I want a companion, not a tool!

And that means rejecting much of the accepted riding practices I've been exposed to - on the far periphery - since a kid. It isn't an English vs Western thing, although I think both communities need to cross-pollinate and try to learn from the best practices of both sides. After all, it was a western rider who told me Mia just needed to be hit with a bigger whip!

I'll say this: _The more I ride, the more I want to ride together, even if I'm riding alone!_ In fact, I may make that my signature for a while...


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## SueC

tinyliny said:


> that German book needs a better translator. can make all the difference in the world.


Is that right? I translated it from my German version, and I'm bilingual, and I've given the full sense of what he was saying. Which bit isn't clear? This is actually how he talks, and I didn't alter it to "Anglicise" it so as not to put words in his mouth.


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## gottatrot

> (_*@SueC:*_)
> I just wanted to add: It doesn't matter who is riding in the photo. We've all made mistakes, and we've all caused our horses unnecessary discomfort, either in ignorance, or by sticking to the "correct" method as advocated by some "expert", or by turning the horse into a scapegoat for a situation that was really caused by us in the first place. I think though that in order to learn from mistakes, one must be capable of admitting the mistake, and repenting from it, as @bsms says - which is an old-fashioned way of saying: to change what we are doing, to make amends, to seek reconciliation.
> 
> Maybe an excellent rider could ride a horse in that kind of getup, and not hurt them - but an excellent rider could also ride them in more sympathetic gear instead to achieve their goals. I think one has to consider the lowest common denominator in these situations, and when there are problems like this, that's usually because of the rider, not the horse.





bsms said:


> If my riding was photographed with telephoto lenses every day, there would be a lot of ugly pictures of me riding. I've lost my temper, been an idiot following bad advice, jerked without realizing it, pushed when I should have backed off, etc.
> 
> ...I've also repented a lot...
> ...That said, I think it is both reasonable and valuable for the community of riders to discuss what 'going too far' means.


 @Zexious is right that the "snaffle" is a gag when we inspect it closer. I can understand the argument of saying a person shouldn't be against things just because it looks complicated. Such as I can understand a horse such as Hickstead being ridden in a hackamore and a bit, with an expert rider using both actions at different times around a course.

But I think we also have to think about our principles and really critique how and why things are used, and how they affect the horse. For instance, draw reins. I can believe there may be a reason they could help with a rare circumstance. But I also believe the reasons they are most commonly used are wrong on principle, including the idea that having the horse curve the neck over will round the back and help develop a green horse, when in actuality it is teaching the horse to move on the forehand, something that is not a goal for me with a green horse or any horse. But I can't say it is never appropriate, for example my friend's horse that reared over and over straight up was taught usefully in draw reins to stay down on the forehand when she was frightened. 

For myself, I definitely have a history of "we've all made mistakes, and we've all caused our horses unnecessary discomfort," but also "repented a lot." But one thing is that I've tried to learn and not believe things are right just because I've done them myself. I've done many things that were wrong, and continue to make these mistakes. But hopefully learn from them! And the best way to learn is to listen to the horses and to see what they are telling us. If horses don't automatically lower their heads in a gag, then regardless of what we're told, that's not what it is telling the horse to do. Perhaps it might be an easier tool to teach a horse to lower the head, but perhaps if you used more release in a regular snaffle, it would teach the horse the same response. But bigger picture: Why is the horse raising the head? Does he need it for balance because he's not strong enough for what we are asking? Does he have a physical problem? Are we causing pain? Does the saddle fit? What is he avoiding? Does he carry it there naturally in the field - then why would we ask him to lower it?

I'm against some things because of a bigger picture view. Sure, one person might use a chain mouthpiece and not hurt a horse. But it would be a rare thing to see a gentle, expert rider that went to a chain mouthpiece because that was the one bit this horse preferred and worked best in, and other options did not work. I'd be skeptical. My own principle with a bigger picture is that it is too risky, because horses do trip and my hands slip, and on principle I don't want to abrade the horse by mistake. I find it easy enough to abrade my horses by mistake, using smooth mouthpieces, padding, and other non-abrasive materials.


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## bsms

*Long and a bit of a rant!*



gottatrot said:


> ...And the best way to learn is to listen to the horses and to see what they are telling us...But bigger picture: Why is the horse raising the head? Does he need it for balance because he's not strong enough for what we are asking? Does he have a physical problem? Are we causing pain? Does the saddle fit? What is he avoiding? Does he carry it there naturally in the field - then why would we ask him to lower it?...


In 1890, James Fillis wrote, "_In place of first putting the blame on the horse, which is only natural, the rider ought perhaps begin by trying to find out if he himself is not the culprit._"

A professional musician told me once that anytime he played the wrong note, he blamed his instrument. He said it was stupid but the natural response: "_My clarinet betrayed me!_" After that initial response, of course, the pro then concentrated more and played the right note. He didn't send the clarinet out for repair!

A large part of the riding world focuses on control. I can't count how often I've heard, "_It's his job! He can eat and hang out with others for 23 hours a day, but when I show up, pleasing me is his job!_" There are many variations of "_Get a bigger whip!_"

Typical rider training drills the attitude into riders. They are paying for a lesson. The horse is there to give them a lesson. If the horse is bored out of his skull with doing laps 4 hours/day, or tired or sore, so what? Get a crop! Ask, tell, DEMAND! "_He's got your number...show him who the boss is!_" After all, you are paying and it's his job!

Where I took lessons, most students brought their own saddles. Any saddle the student brought was used on any horse assigned that day. If 13.0 hand Cowboy has a short back, slender shoulders and a wide loin...doesn't matter. ANY saddle the student brought was used. It's his job, you know! And little Cowboy was a stubborn, naughty horse!

I have no problem with using tack as a "Band-Aid". I use bandages from time to time, when I have a cut. But if someone kept showing up for work wearing 15-20 band-aids, I'd suspect a deeper problem. I have no regrets about using a curb bit to help break Mia from bolting. I have no problem with using sheepskin to prevent me from sliding across my saddle. If you are worried about your feet getting caught, nothing wrong with caged stirrups. Nothing wrong with using tack to help you with a specific problem.

But when you blame the horse first, and use multiple bandages to keep control, there is a bigger problem going on. When Bandit accepts responsibility for crossing a piece of terrain, my tack merely helps me stay on. When my horse wants to do what I want him to do, riding is pretty darn easy!

If one rejects control and thinks motivation, a new world opens up. Instead of what, you think about why. Why is a question that opens up near limitless possibilities. That is what I mean by riding the horse's mind. Fortunately, horses seem to love teamwork. They enjoy working with a rider as partners. They are social creatures, disliking boredom but enjoying games. If you can get a horse to think he's out having fun with you, then control isn't an issue. 

Well...sometimes. I don't own any unicorns and I'm not an Elf Lord whose purity of spirit makes a horse do things for me. I still have days when my stomach twists into knots, where my body tenses up - and my horse is just strolling along, wondering what my problem is. Or my horse really won't enjoy what we are doing, and finding a compromise that is mutual...well, sometimes it doesn't happen! We even get mad at each other sometimes!

But yes, when I see this, I think, "What the heck?"








​
That screams to me, "Something is wrong!" Like a coworker showing up with 15 bandages every day for weeks, something is wrong! Get that [expletive deleted] off and start troubleshooting! *Underneath all that garbage is a problem waiting for a solution. Find it!*

"_they would have no place on a trail horse plodding his way through the Arizona desert_"

No, they would not. But a horse in the desert may face stiffer challenges than a horse on a polo field, too. In a sense, control - some control - is more critical in the desert than on the polo field. I've heard bullets whizzing past me twice while riding in the desert. Doubt that happens in many polo matches. And even my arena has more potholes and rocks than the average polo field. If I was going to fall somewhere, I'd MUCH rather fall on a polo field than into the cactus and rock that are my daily companions.

And if Bandit sometimes plods (fine by me!), he also prances. He hasn't done a 'turn and burn' - spinning 180 and racing off - in a long time, but he's changed directions and slammed on the brakes without my asking.

Not many rattlesnakes on the average polo field, nor javelina, nor dirt bikes. We had 5 Turkey Vultures checking us out Friday, a couple at pretty close range. Made me wonder if they knew something I didn't, until I finally shouted up at them, "_I ain't planning on dying today!_"

The point being that anyone can find an excuse for needing more control. I've come to believe horsemanship involves selectively giving up control in order to gain control. When we're twisting between cactus, I could use tight reins, be highly directive and point out a few inches of error will mean spines in my legs or face. If I give up control and ride looser, my horse provides better control than the reins will ever give me! But that requires me to think about "why" instead of "what", to motivate my horse instead of control him. I have to LET my horse work with me.


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## SueC

bsms said:


> If my riding was photographed with telephoto lenses every day, there would be a lot of ugly pictures of me riding. I've lost my temper, been an idiot following bad advice, jerked without realizing it, pushed when I should have backed off, etc...


Because there is no "love this" button, I just wanted to say that this was a fabulous, fabulous post in its entirity, and so were the next two long posts. I'm really enjoying especially this journal and @*gottatrot* 's for the serious nitty-gritty discussions, the thinking and reflecting, the learning, the honesty, the amazing synergy of people thinking together and bouncing off each other. It makes all of us better thinkers, observers, writers, horse stewards, riders, and people. Thank you everybody. :happydance:

Someone once said, about music (and I've got music on my brain just now due to the lovely things going on in my own journal presently), that some people didn't want to see the glossy surface, the manicure, the perfection. They wanted to see the dirt under the fingernails, the raw thoughts, the contradictions; the acknowledgement of the imperfection and the humanity. I think that's so true about a lot of things.

Very best wishes to all of you.


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## SueC

Reading that last post of yours, @*bsms* , I was thinking that it's unfortunate that Tom Roberts' four slim, yellow-jacketed volumes about horses and riding are called the "_Horse Control_" series - considering he was actually far more about horse motivation, horse stewardship, trying to understand it from the horse's point of view, and thinking things through. The title may give a lot of people the wrong impression. Or conversely, maybe it was done deliberately to get the people that needed it the most to buy these books! :rofl:


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## bsms

@*SueC* , what I find sadder is the books are out of print! There was some out of date information - bits that one probably couldn't find anywhere, etc - but I'd love to see the four books edited into one. And preferably with a different name!

I don't come close to agreeing with everything Larry Trocha teaches, but he does something Tom Roberts did: He says WHY he came to a certain conclusion. None of this "_I am The Oracle of Horses! Listen to Me and Obey Me!_" stuff where all need to bow down to various assertions! Littauer, likewise. The WHY behind how a person handles something often makes it possible to translate that idea to a different situation - a western rider listening to a former Russian Cavalry officer who taught jumping, or to a guy who help start a dressage club. The WHY also admits the writer doesn't have all the answers. The writer may even be wrong, and he (she) knows it.

It is hard to find ultimate truth in horse riding or anything else. I don't know if it is modern society, or the Internet, or if it has always been this way, but I find so many people are utterly and implacably dogmatic about darn near everything. Evidence isn't needed. Explanations aren't needed. Just assert something, loudly, and expect others to obey. 

I recently posted this picture from Tom Roberts on another thread. I've posted it a lot of times. It was crucial to turning Mia around:








​ 
He doesn't tell anyone WHAT to do. He shares his experience. And it makes sense, to some of us at least. I could adapt his experience to what I was going through - and it helped. A lot!

At the time, I had a lot of very dogmatic advice. Mia should not be ridden out of an arena until I could stop her, 100% of the time, in every situation, from my seat. How I was supposed to know I could stop her "in every situation" without leaving the arena first wasn't spelled out. And I'll say now what I didn't type then: If my horse was that lazy, I wouldn't keep her! Not all horses WANT to stop, or find standing still a reward! 

I was told I needed "body control", and shouldn't ride my horse out until I could control every motion of her foot, nose, presumably tail. Mia obviously was smarter and more self-aware than a lot of horses, since she already understood that she had four feet on the ground and I had zero. As the Army is fond of saying, "_It takes boots on the ground to take control!_" - and only my horse had "boots on the ground"!

So yeah, Mia and I both knew the truth: Mia ultimately controlled where we went and at what speed! I could only advise...

I was told curb bits are cruel. I was told no horse could be safely ridden in a curb unless they were already flawless in a snaffle - which made me wonder, "_If they are flawless in a snaffle, why would you spend money on a curb?_" I was told only highly skilled riders - like the people posting all apparently felt themselves to be - could transition a horse from snaffle to curb. But honestly? It's easy! It has to be because I've done it without difficulty. If I can, anyone can. Except a hamfist who wants total world domination...

The four books Tom Roberts wrote have some excess. He sometime went off on tangents, or discussed tack more relevant to 1950 than 2020. I don't know if there is any way legally to combine and revise what he wrote, editing all four into one volume. And a new title: "Working with Horses: Willing Obedience" maybe. NOT "Horse Control". I've always wondered if that title wasn't pushed on Tom Roberts by a publisher. His approach was more "Horse Convincing" than "Horse Control"! It would be wonderful if someone could edit and reorganize his books. There is a lot of wisdom being neglected and forgotten...


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## gottatrot

SueC said:


> ...I was thinking that it's unfortunate that Tom Roberts' four slim, yellow-jacketed volumes about horses and riding are called the "_Horse Control_" series - considering he was actually far more about horse motivation, horse stewardship, trying to understand it from the horse's point of view, and thinking things through. The title may give a lot of people the wrong impression. Or conversely, maybe it was done deliberately to get the people that needed it the most to buy these books!


That's what I was wondering...maybe he thought that those who wanted to control the horse would be attracted to the title and learn other approaches.


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## bsms

This is part of a post I made on gottatrot's journal, but it is about what I've been doing on Bandit lately:



bsms said:


> ...As I've practiced in my little arena on Bandit, trying what Larry Trocha suggested, I'm conflicted. I'm not sure Bandit has EVER twisted like Nala does in the video. He hasn't spun past the 3-9 line, that I remember, for 2 years plus. None of his spins have had the violence of Mia's. And realistically, Bandit may be the last horse I'll ever ride intensively.
> 
> I was comparing today how I interpret Larry Trocha's comments and how I interpret Harry Chamberlin's teachings. Lets face it, I've never met either man. I'd love to take some lessons from Larry Trocha, but probably never will. Chamberlin died during WW2. So all I have are my best guesses at what they meant, and my guesses might be slandering both of them!
> 
> Both in the desert the other day, and in the arena today, I wasn't happy about sitting heavy on my horse's back. I've never done that before and I don't like it. I don't think Bandit is impressed, either. I wonder if I accept riders riding smaller horses at heavier weights because all of my "instruction" has been to get OFF the back as much as possible, to use my legs to protect my horse's back so my horse doesn't have to do it!
> 
> If getting on my pockets and slouching helps me stay on, but at the cost of being heavy on Bandit's back, it isn't worth it. There is a spot we often ride, where I take Bandit just off the trail while we drop into the biggest wash we have. I slouched the other day...and Bandit struggled. At a walk. The rest of the ride I did what I've always done - put pressure on my stirrups, got a little out of the saddle, used a forward balance, and freed Bandit to move without Sack of Potatoes Bob slouched on his back. Bandit told me that was better.
> 
> What works for a few minutes of cutting action in the arena may not be fair to my horse. It is part of what I believe is one of the two fundamental principles of Forward Riding - *the rider will work harder so the horse can work less*.
> 
> The other, BTW, is: *Instead of teaching my horse to shift his balance back under me, I'll move forward to put my balance above his*.
> 
> Assuming Bandit will NEVER move in the way Nala moves, what Littauer and Chamberlin taught may be safe enough. Particularly with my narrow but grippy Abetta saddle, with 4" cantle behind and a horn in front.
> 
> There is a thread I'm not going to return to. I lost my temper on it this morning. As many who read gottatrot's journal know, I'm a jerk when I lose my temper. But these conversations on the journals are a big part of my "riding instruction". I get to hear how diverse riders...try to solve the riding puzzle. Then I can take the idea to Bandit and ask, "_How does it feel when I do X1? How about X2? X3? X3 is pretty good in this spot, but causes a problem over here? What if I swap between X1 & X3, since you thought X2 sucked?_"
> 
> Then someone will mention X4, and I'll be like a hobbit saying, "_They sell PINTS?_"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> I would love to be able to jump in a time machine and take lessons from Littauer, or Tom Roberts, or get a graduate of Samur to teach me some lessons. But I can't. And no one I know personally would even understand why I ask these questions...


I'm starting to like a little shorter stirrup position. I think I can use it the way Littauer and Chamberlin discussed, maybe just a little longer. Bandit spent enough of his life with heavy riders riding heavy. I just don't think it is fair of me to ask him to do it again. He's too fundamentally sane a horse to spend the rest of my life worrying he'll twist like Mia. Unlike Mia, I've never seen Bandit fall anywhere. And I've never seen him spook into danger. He stays very aware of his surroundings and only spooks to the extent he can do so safely. He seems to take my legs into account as well.

So...that will be what I try next.


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## SueC

Just reflecting on posts 1417/1418 - and on that thread I stayed right out of (even the question, I was just thinking, "Nope, I'm not going there!") - I dipped a little this morning when it was closed down and just confirmed to myself that it's not the kind of discussion I would have enjoyed. I did notice, as I had when I first joined HF, this sort of snobbery and dismissal on reading about horses, training and riding. Well, since I personally ceased to have lessons at age 9, I owe much of my development as a rider, and the successful education of several riding horses to competition level, beginning when I was 11 and trained a yearling Arabian completely unassisted from scratch, to serious reading and experimentation, combined with practice, practice, practice; and _listening_ to the horse is so paramount, the horse is actually your greatest teacher.

I remember explaining that once as a newbie on the forum and copping a lot of derision and being told I was sounding ridiculous and I should stop giving advice to people because it was dangerous. Whoa! And by whom? And I asked myself, why the hostility? Why this cattiness? Because I'm not a product of the standard equestrian sausage machine? Because I didn't have money for further arena lessons, nor a way of getting there? Because I think critically instead of accepting the "rules"?

And just as an aside, at the same time there's a lot of unquestioning reverence for so-called horse whisperers (anyone ever noticed how few of the revered figures are female, and asked why?). And so where did they get their expertise? Was it bestowed upon them from a heavenly cloud? There is so much unquestioning submission to authority in Western mainstream society, and yet if you look at the biggest breakthroughs in ideas, whether in biology or quantum physics, whether plate tectonics, evolution, relativity, the germ theory of disease (as opposed to evil spirits or the deleterious effect of goats, seriously), the heliocentric model of the solar system, the idea that the earth isn't flat - all of these ideas were once ideas for which some people would happily burn others at the stake, and it seems that malevolent instinct is still there.

And what is so hard to accept about people learning things from books? People do it when studying medicine, flying jet fighters, even when learning to drive - there is always theory and practice. It's also the only way I was going to get (virtual, but also real) lessons from a horseperson as broad, nitty-gritty, accomplished and intelligent as Tom Roberts - and in my view he's a dying breed, because horsepersonship is no longer a broad thing in modern times, it's often a very specialised thing now, dressage OR jumping OR endurance OR harness OR campdrafting OR cutting OR polo OR ploughing potatoes etc etc etc, instead of lots of these things cross-pollinating each other, and a person's understanding of horses and riding. TR lived and worked in an era where the horse wasn't just a hobby for people, it was a way of life and and very broad-ranging. He was a person who himself read widely about horses, but also an empiricist and a critical thinker, and a person who wasn't beneath discussing all things horse with his peers to get further understanding.

Do I defer to him? No; I just read his stuff on horse training and riding, tried it out, and had excellent results, and most of the time (but not all of the time) I agree with his ideas. So I think he's an excellent source of ideas and approaches, and the biggest one is: Think about it yourself, don't just take it from someone else.

I'm a general lifelong learner - and that's actually one of my strongest talents, I've walked away with top graduate starting at middle school, then at senior school, then from my university degree programme - never because that's what I was aiming at or expecting, but because I loved, and still love, learning and thinking and reflecting - and I've always applied that to everything, whether horse riding or whatever. And my husband and I, with no prior practical experience in the building industry, owner-built a farm shed from scratch and then designed and built our own passive-solar off-grid farmhouse, chiefly by reading the relevant manuals and experimenting, and calling in help when we needed it.

I also spent my professional life doing science research, and providing education to undergraduate science students and high school students (teaching at university entrance level, Biology, Human Biology, Physics, Chemistry, Physical Geography, and also English and English Literature - in an age where it is unusual to teach "both" sides of science - life science and physical science - and almost unheard of to teach English and Literature as well). I've always been interested in the bigger picture, not in specialising in just one area; and I really do dismiss the idea that a person can't be excellent at several specialties - in fact, it helps to be - and once upon a time, not too long ago, nobody would study science OR philosophy, you'd automatically do both. Anyway, I always find it so ironic when people think my approaches to learning and to teaching are dangerous, on a fairly anonymous platform like a forum where people usually don't know each other (and BTW I think that's currently being nicely remedied in certain journals we like ). I'm actually an education and learning specialist.

I'm also a member of the Australian _Grass Roots_ community, a bunch of nature-loving, reading, thinking, reflecting, hands-on DIY self-sufficiency people with a national magazine that's like a paper Wikipedia project as our centrepiece. I read and I contribute, and learn like the rest of the bunch. It's very friendly, very like these HF journals I love hanging out on - that way of living and thinking is understood by everyone participating, and then you don't get any of these pointless and ugly discussions which are about as worthwhile as getting in a debate with the Flat Earth Society, or a door-knocking missionary, or a political devotee. You know? But I think much of the modern mainstream sees us as a bunch of retrograde hippies. And that's not really true, and I don't think any of us GR folks are losing much sleep about it. ;-)

Have an excellent day, all!


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## bsms

There are conversations I need to learn to avoid before posting anything. There are times I ought to know I'm going to end up where I don't want to be. Not all roads need to be traveled.

However, this is Bandit's new bit. Just like the previous curb, but copper. After a couple of trials, I see no sign he knows the difference. But its flashier than the sweet iron version, and Statelinetack had it for $25 and I'm a hopeless tackaholic:








​
Cowboy has inherited the iron version. Not a waste. Just don't tell my wife...although I suspect she knows. After 31 years of marriage, I'm not fooling her on much.


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## tinyliny

that is a nice looking bit. 



I haven't tried X in a curb of any sort. He is so apt to curl up behind the bit , and 'worry' it with his mouth, that I have found him happiest in a halter.


Tonight, I tried on my old french link snaffle mouthpiece. he mouthed it with distaste, so I took it out and we headed out with halters only. It's just, well, we've all been spooked lately because a black bear keeps hanging around the park and the surrounding neighborhoods. there have been multiple sightings, in and around the park. 



In fact, we think it was the bear who caused X and his paddock mates to burst through the hotwire fencing and roam the suburban streets, at 4 am, for an hour or more, last week. 

It is SOOOOOO amazing that no horse or human was hurt. In all the 15 years I've been at this barn, no horse has ever gone on walkabout like these 3 did; down the driveway, out on the street, over to the tennis club, to the fancy, schmancy hunt club, then back down all the way to the golf course. quite the little adventure they had, in the wee hours of the dawn. were it late in the day, it could have been a tragedy, not a little laugh.


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## bsms

I liked the Dr Cook's except I worry about some white hairs on his face. They may have nothing to do with the Dr Cook's since some of the white hairs are between his eyes, and that surely didn't come from the bridle! He likes to rub his face while in the corral. And he was ridden in a bosal before I got him, with the snaffle as a brake. I could see where that might cause some white hairs. I'm just so unobservant that I don't know when the white appeared. I'm 100% certain he had some white hairs on the bridge of his nose when I got him, but how many? And is it worth worrying about?

I've been impressed by how well he acts in the Dr Cook's. The curb allows a little more finesse, perhaps...but...

The decisions with horses never ends. In this case, I doubt there is a truly bad answer. He goes so well in either that neither can be too wrong! That is part of how he has changed over the last 3 years. He's so much more receptive now to "_Hey, why not give it a try...ease a little to the right, go to a trot if it helps, and try going on by..._" If I could get my courage up he might not need much at all from either bit or bridle. He is well aware of my thought regardless.

The story with the bear is amazing, @tinyliny! I did survival school in north Washington during the summer. The black bears didn't bother me much, but the time a grizzly strolled thru where 30 of us were sleeping on the ground...those guys don't mess around if annoyed!

Mia, Trooper and Cowboy got out of both layers of fences a few years back. We got home after dark and no horses! Couldn't find a flashlight, kept looking, very worried, found a flashlight. They had managed to cross the wash on the west side of our property then wandered to the south side of the south fence. But none of them could figure out how to get back to the gate on the north side. 

Nor did they make any noise. When we got the flashlight, all three were lined up side-by-side on the south side of the fence, waiting patiently for us to make things right. People help horses. That's why God made us, to help horses! In the end, we cut the wires, got them in the corral, then fixed the fence the next day.


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> Cowboy has inherited the iron version. Not a waste. Just don't tell my wife...although I suspect she knows. After 31 years of marriage, I'm not fooling her on much.


I deleted a few of the emails with titles in bold advertising how much my latest saddle cost. It was sort of just avoiding the embarrassment of admitting it out loud to my DH. Something must have popped up because one day he said, "Wow, that must be some new saddle you have." I said, "Yes, it really is!" Then a couple nights later I dreamed he was explaining to me how he finally understood just how special my saddle was, despite never having sat in it. When I told him about the dream it made him laugh. 
@tinyliny, your story reminded me of a friend who told me as a kid her horses got out and ran all around the golf course down the street. The golf course made her spend hours putting all the grass divots back into place. Glad X and his friends are OK!
@SueC, great post! I really like how you and @bsms and some others on here think. It's truly critical thinking, and that is driven by a hunger to learn and a desire to know the truth in order to better ourselves and our horses. 

I don't get upset about disagreeing with people, what I want is for arguments to be based on facts. I want to know why. If your thoughts clash with my thoughts, explain to me where I am wrong so I can understand! I am happy to be proven wrong, but I will argue because I need to find the flaws in my own argument as well as yours. 

There is a super sharp nurse I work with and we've had some amazing debates that led us to life-changing conclusions for patients. A couple of times people have observed these and thought we were angry at each other because we were so intensely into the back and forth. Once one of us has the irrefutable fact, the other concedes and we get things moving for the patient. This type of thing leads us to a strong supporting case to present to the doctor, and that sends them quickly down the right path to saving the patient's organs, or even life. You're at the mercy of your nurses' skills and perceptions if you run into trouble in the middle of the night in a hospital. 

What I don't have patience for is holding onto ideas because of emotional attachment. Someone I know likes to debate, but in the end she'll say, "Well, I just feel it is true." I can't accept that. 

For some reason people adopt a view and hang onto it emotionally, and it feels dangerous maybe or threatening to have it questioned. Sometimes I've noticed when you question something that in my opinion is impersonal (example: how much pressure should you put on the bit with your rein?), people will act like you told them they had big, ugly feet. How dare you? Who are you to question how much pressure I should use? Then instead of responding logically, discussing signs they've seen about how it might feel to a horse, how studies show horses respond by releasing stress hormones, what it means to have jaw flexion, or other things that would assist learning, it basically comes down to belittling a person for engaging in discussion.

Sometimes I've learned the most when dearly held beliefs were torn down. How could someone tell me after years of riding I had an insecure seat? And how could I ever get a secure seat if no one ever told me that? Sometimes I actually get excited when someone tells me I'm wrong. I'll have this sinking feeling that quickly whooshes up into excitement. That's because I know that if I've been wrong, finding out what is right could open up great possibilities. 

An example was that it was my belief that white blood cells did not elevate in response to viruses, but only to bacteria. I'd made the leap that since we treated elevated white blood cells with antibiotics, it was due to the knowledge the patient had a bacterial infection (versus using antivirals). This was something I debated with my nurse friend, and she was adamant I was wrong, so I looked it up and I was. I'd often said, "Well, we know it's not a viral pneumonia, look at the white count." How many people just agreed with me? Finally I met someone who challenged my belief, and this was very important. 

I've met doctors who state false things as facts, which of course has made me look up what the truth is. We all have false beliefs, and holding onto them dogmatically will lead us astray. Yes, super smart doctor (honestly, a seriously smart person), high blood pressure can cause headaches. Yes, super smart horse person, I will argue with you and hope you will debate back and teach me some things.


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## SueC

@gottatrot, I had noticed that you definitely have the right disposition to be hosting discussions like this - and so it's only right that much of what we are all talking about goes on at "your place"! ;-) You even sound endearing when you've just fallen off a horse. If I were a horse, I'd listen to that and think, "What's she doing down there? Better go over there so I can get back to working together properly with my lovely monkey!" ;-)

I completely agree debates are great if people play the ball, and not the person. It should be about evidence and mutual learning, not about a popularity contest, and it shouldn't have sniping and bad manners in it. And the latter two always drive me away really quickly, because when people resort to those, it's not a discussion worth having, to me.

Or when people take, for example, "Books are helpful for all sorts of learning" and twist it to say, "Such and such says that you can learn X just from books" and then bash away with all their might at that argument as if it was the position the original person had stated, instead of using their energy to try to understand the _actual_ position. I think that's dirty fighting, and illogical fighting, and about point-scoring and "winning" the argument. People who "debate" like that are in my experience usually very dogmatic and seem to assume superiority in expertise and/or experience, when that's often not actually the case. 

And unfortunately, much public debate these days is like that. In Australia, discussion around politics is a total sewer. Only rarely is someone having an actual, productive discussion instead of trying to annihilate or ridicule someone, or a caricature of their position. And on the Internet, sheesh, I blush to read what's written in some general comments sections regarding social issues etc.

And despite of the fact that I won't participate in these kinds of debates anymore on the open forum here, I think compared to the general Internet standard, HF has done an excellent job at encouraging a friendly culture overall. And good spelling! ;-)


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## bsms

I don't mind when someone presents evidence that I'm wrong. I'm pigheaded enough - an insult to pigs, btw - that I rarely admit it at the moment. But a day, week or month later, I may build on what I learned.

What helps me are explanations or evidence. It doesn't have to be published. After all, I strongly disagree with some published papers, too. But I need to know WHY doing X has helped or harmed. And I need to see some correlation between what others say and what my horses say. 

I've just conducted a week+ experiment on taking weight out of my stirrups and concentrating it in my seat. I'm 175 in clothes, 195+ with tack, on an 825-ish horse. He's not thrilled when I ride heavy in the saddle. And since it is HIS BACK, it is also HIS VOTE that counts! I really like Larry Trocha. He seems pretty open and honest and explains his biases and why he likes certain things. I'm pretty sure he'd tell me if my horse gives better responses doing something different, then indulge my horse!

And I will. I don't mind asking Bandit to work hard for my pleasure, but I need to be respectful of how much work I ask him to do. If I change something and he loses enthusiasm, then I need to change back. That's our bargain.

PS: Internet discussion seems to have low standards. I used to discuss politics on political forums, religion on religious forums, shooting on gun forums...and been frustrated into silence on most. Maybe it was always that way and I just didn't notice until the Internet allowed me to participate in public forums. For my own peace of mind, I need to learn to walk away. Heck, for the good of my SOUL, I need to learn to walk away - "_For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God._" My anger helps no one and hurts me. *One would think I'd have learned that by 60!*


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## SueC

...some things, @*bsms* , are programmed into our young impressionable brains really early on by the circumstances in which we find ourselves, by how our caregivers handle us, by early experiences in schooling etc etc. (Ha, why do I _immediately_ think, "And this can also happen with horses, with their early experiences of humans?") And those things are really, really hard to shift. Anger and fear I think are often two sides of the same coin. It's all very primal, and about survival.

For my unfortunate misprogrammings and flaws, I've found the best approach is not to flagellate myself, or to curse myself, or to otherwise bash myself up, or denigrate myself, or think I'm weak-willed... (ever noticed how much easier it is to write than to live? ;-)) I tried all that as a young person and it only makes these things worse.

Just thinking out loud about my own life: It's not about blame - blaming your parents or the bullies at school or the war or the way things were done at the time or whatever, although it's fine, and actually really necessary, to acknowledge these things as factors that were instrumental in creating a bad programme (which once upon a time usually had survival value for you when you were little and really defenceless). Or blaming yourself because you're not perfect. It's not about whose fault, and make them pay, but understanding that all of us, to greater and lesser extents, have inherited this stuff, and while not to _blame_ for this, are _responsible_ for stewarding ourselves and working on those programming errors (some of which also are written by ourselves after childhood). And the only way that really works, for me, is to learn to be compassionate to myself as well, and to treat myself as well as I would a friend, and to think reasonably well of myself, and to be patient, and to keep trying, and to not give up, and to cultivate good cheer, and to celebrate small milestones, and to do high-fives and cheers, and to believe that I'm going to get there, and to have humour and to be able to burst out laughing at some of the stuff I do. (And again, that approach also broadly works in training a horse! :rofl

My biggest psychological Achilles heel is something called complex PTSD, which is like the war PTSD or other traumatic event/time frame PTSD, except that cPTSD happens when children are very young and consistently exposed to violence between their caregivers and from their caregivers; physical violence, emotional violence, and for some of my friends with these kinds of backgrounds, even sexual violence towards them as children. These children never have a home environment that is emotionally or physically safe for them, nor a healthy loving relationship with their primary caregivers - the home itself is a war zone they are born into. Unlike children born into healthy families in war-torn countries, these children don't have the buffer of a safe family between themselves and the war, so it's actually worse.

Typically you grow up hypervigilant (since you need to take care of your own safety from the time you start to think), conflict feels dangerous, and you tend to have difficulty relating to other people (because your earliest bonds were trauma bonds instead of healthy bonds). People from these environments tend to either repeat the cycle and become violent with others as soon as they find people smaller and weaker than them somehow (or animals), or they go the other way early on and become people that can be walked on because that's what they are used to, and will put other people's concerns above their own, even to their personal detriment, and try to save everybody and everything, and end up with all the unwanted puppies in the world etc. :rofl:

If you're tending to the latter category as a young person, it's a bit of a lengthy process to learn healthy self-love, instead of self-loathing (or narcissism, if in the former category). It's actually been pointed out that _love thy neighbour as thyself_ points to exactly that: You're not worth more, you're not worth less, love as a principle applies to yourself and to other people equally. It's the petrol that needs to be in everyone's tank.

You can think of yourself as a horse from a place where it had bad experiences, that you need to re-train, get the trust of, help enjoy life again, etc. It's funny how helpful that shift in thinking can be. Hope you like carrots. ;-) And "goooood boy"! And "end-of-lesson" rewards, to build upon subsequently! :rofl:


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## SueC

A little postscript here: Equine therapy indeed! ;-) It was actually working with horses when I was surrounded by unsafe people that allowed me to have positive social interactions in my spare time as a child and adolescent (I was generally isolated from other children except during school hours), and to see what functional, healthy, affectionate relationships were like, where both sides counted equally. I had a person with huge psychiatric expertise say to me in my 20s, "Considering how you've scored on emotional neglect, it's really amazing how you have compensated, how you're really sociable and personable, and how you're not in the gutter or drug addicted etc." Wow, that was a high compliment!  I felt like Mowgli. ;-) Mowgli socialised by horses! :rofl:

That was one side, the in-the-world side. The other was that I started to believe, at 14 years old, that there was something bigger than us, and not messed up like human beings, and that this person was very interested in my positive development, and in teaching me about love. And whether or not this is based in reality (or in what the human mind will create for its own survival), that was a hugely helpful factor in helping me live positively. Other friends from difficult backgrounds who have this in common with me refer to this as their "positive parenting experience" / "re-parenting experience" and I can see why. And you don't even have to believe in God to see the justice and rightness and love and good sense of the Sermon on the Mount, or the beauty of the Gospel of John. ;-)


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## tinyliny

i appreciate gottatrot tolerating our discussions, that often meander far from her world. please, don't let us keep you from posting YOUR comments on YOUR life. We love hearing about your adventures. 



you are , in a way, the 'ideal' of what _I _would be if all my horsey dreams were to suddenly just come true.


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## SueC

You know, @*tinyliny* , @*gottatrot* , @*bsms* and others - I just read through the entire closed thread and I actually think that went a lot better than some of the stuff I saw here in early days. People with different views were in some places actually listening to each other, even people who wouldn't necessarily have done this a few years ago. I was able to "like" loads of stuff. But the "personal insult and ridicule" brigade is still there as well, thankfully more in the minority this time. Same people who used to snipe at me though, and it seems they still don't know how to argue rationally or engage in a disagreement with dignity. This makes things unpleasant, and if it hadn't been for that, the discussion need not have been closed. Shame really.

I don't know how you moderators have the patience. Not a job I'd want. Not online! So from that, then - thanks for doing that, @*tinyliny* &co! :clap:


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## Fimargue

SueC said:


> That was one side, the in-the-world side. The other was that I started to believe, at 14 years old, that there was something bigger than us, and not messed up like human beings, and that this person was very interested in my positive development, and in teaching me about love. And whether or not this is based in reality (or in what the human mind will create for its own survival), that was a hugely helpful factor in helping me live positively. Other friends from difficult backgrounds who have this in common with me refer to this as their "positive parenting experience" / "re-parenting experience" and I can see why.


I just complete shut down and build a wall. And all the feelings of sorrow became anger. I felt like Hulk ready to explode, and I did. To this day I feel like I have two personalities, the one that cares and the one that really doesn't care. I'm quite unable to commit to people.

Horses are the only thing that helps me, I can actually feel something.

**

About the discussion. I hope I didn't like any post that was belittling someone, I was just agreeing that there is indeed a circle of energy. My horse is in perfect self carriage (there are videos of her in the Dressage Talk) because that's where my focus was before I started to teach her contact. The circle of energy (I don't tend to think things in a very complex way so it's just energy that is contained) is what is able to keep the horse in front of leg and on aids, being able to have those nice walk to canter transitions and not "hello? I gave you a canter cue, nothing is happening? Do you mind?". This will eventually lead to collection, needing powerful hind end so that the movement goes up instead of forward and on the forehand.

Here is when a horse learns to go up with the energy:



What got me was people saying that you can't learn feel from the books... Well, to me feel is something that you either have, or don't have - but yes sometimes when we have learned bad habits, we need to be re-educated in the feel.


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## SueC

Dear @*Fimargue* , it gets better as you get older. :hug:


The circle of energy thing I see as a metaphor, and one that can help some people, but I think it's important for people to understand that there is no basis for those statements in the physical universe. Since you're from Finland, you probably got that from school there; but then you do have the best education system in the world. ;-)


I could also go on about metaphors versus facts in religion...but I won't. ;-)


I think if it's described well, you can learn about feel from books, and go out and practice it. It depends on the effectiveness of the metaphors! 


I like that mare of yours. Enjoy!


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## Fimargue

Dear Sue, :hug: I could cope if it wasn't for the depression. 

Yes, it's a metaphor. And some people maybe take it too far, like many things in dressage. I hate anything too complicated because I have difficulty to digest it. Yes, why is that other countries do not try to copy the system? Here they talk about it at least once a year, but nothing is done (because it's too much work to change things). Here they don't even teach about religion because it can trigger something? We covered all religions at school. Health and nutrition, animals, nature and environment are also big part of our education. We were forced to study plant names until we were bored to tears :lol: AND, collect those flipping things. And we have to learn CPR. And physics and chemistry indeed - god that I hated those subjects, had to learn the periodic table by heart.

I'm not a religious person, but having read good part of the Bible for/at school, I think it is indeed full of metaphors.

Why, of course you like her because she is a bit like yours.  She is quite the package and I do enjoy her. She is my best friend.


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## SueC

Ha, @*Fimargue* !  I like all performance horses, with a soft spot for performance Arabians who look like my late mare - very true. ;-) But I also look at horses before I say it! 

Depression is a tough one. But it's actually a sane reaction to insane circumstances. Take good care of yourself. I'm glad you've got your horse; my Arabian mare got me through my teenage years in the war zone and was my most constant friend until she died when I was in my early 40s. Thankfully I have a nice husband now. ;-) And a dog. Both are very helpful. ;-) I do miss this mare, but I'm glad to have known her. And every time I see someone riding a mare like that, I get this little spark of happiness that other people are also having such great experiences with their horses somewhere in this world. Not necessarily everyone with an Arabian mare - it's a metaphor! ;-) But in your case, I think it's the real deal too.

I had to :rofl: about your education commentary. I think part of the reason other countries don't copy it is because you guys have the most qualified teachers in the world - from what I've read, they have to score very highly, like people wanting to study medicine or engineering, to get into teaching. Whereas in Australia, the pass mark to get into an education degree is 50%. Last survey, half the people entering teaching didn't pass basic literacy and numeracy tests themselves. And people would scream if they suddenly had to have high entry scores to teach. It was a bit better in the high schools here; because in Science, for instance, they preferentially employed people who had actual B.Sc. qualifications, with Grad.Dip.Ed. on top, which is what I have, to people with B.Ed. studies majoring in Science. But they've watered down the system so much in the last twenty years that many degree specialists actually ended up leaving, and now non-subject specialists are teaching specialist subjects because they can't get many really qualified people to play their stupid games...

@*bsms* , we're chatting in your house and making ourselves quite comfortable; is that OK with you? I can take a hint! ;-)


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## bsms

It never occurred to me that calling the "Circle of Energy" stupid would be very controversial. As in my real life, I often misjudge how people will take things.

If someone had said, "It's a mental image that is supposed to help you use the bit in a way that shifts balance more to the rear"...well, how does ANYONE argue about mental images? They help a person or not, and it is totally personal in how much they help - or harm.

Still, as a mental image, the energy doesn't "recycle" at all. It is used.

I don't mind asking Bandit to work hard for a short time for my pleasure in riding. He doesn't mind either that I can tell. Maybe even enjoys showing off a little. But I need to remember he IS working hard. When he gives me a big, floaty trot, he is choosing to burn off some excess energy. Which if fine. But I shouldn't pretend he is floating effortlessly. Ballerinas float effortlessly too - and they work extremely hard to make it look effortless!

The other serious issue I have with it, even as a mental image, is the focus on the bit. As Jean Claude Racinet (a dressage rider) said, why not the poll? Why not the lips? Why not the front hooves, where it might actually be returning some energy to the rear? Why the bit?

I think the problem is with the concept of "round". Like the instructor who told me that if I urged Mia forward with my leg, and held her back with the bit, she would "round up" in between like a Slinky:








​ 
"_Squeeze both ends and she'll round up!_" - and people wonder why I'm underwhelmed by the local riding instructors! And to quote a book recommended by the USDF:



> This elevation against gravity, without getting tight in the process, requires a great deal of basic tension (*and requires the horse to be closed in between the driving reins and restraining aids*). The "rubber band" may never lose its arching oscillations. Especially during collection, the oscillations become rather pronounced, and the horse's back moves increasingly up and down as the horses steps and strides become loftier and more cadenced. *This of course requires that the horse is well contained between the pushing aids and restraining aids, because this relatively high basic tension which is necessary for collection can only be obtained in this way*...Prolonged collecting work is very strenuous for the horse." - Balance in Movement, The Seat of the Rider by Susanne von Dietze, page 120


Racinet published the following diagram:








​
Once you accept what the horse cannot do - round up like a Slinky - you can think about asking him to do what he CAN do: tuck under and lift at the withers. Once you accept that you cannot get energy to bounce off the bit and return to the hind legs, you can start asking and rewarding the horse for doing what is possible -to divert forward motion into upward motion.
------------------------
When I was stationed in Korea, a one star general had one of my fellow officers preparing a briefing for the general to give the next day. At 4 PM, the general didn't like it. But he couldn't say WHY. Same at 6 PM. Same at 9 PM. He told the officer to work on it over night. My friend tried to get the general to give him some guidance on what he wanted.

"_I'll know it when I see it!_"​
So my friend, under lawful orders, worked through the night. At 6 AM, it wasn't right. At 9 AM, it was closer. At 11 AM, the general said it would have to be good enough and went to give "his" briefing.

Of course, if the general actually knew what he wanted to say, preparing the slides and organizing the text could have been done in an hour!
---------------------
Racinet's point is that too often, we train horses using the "_I'll know it when I see it!_" method. Wrong answer, horse. Still wrong answer. Still wrong. Still wrong. A little closer, maybe. Gotta think about how it felt to my butt. Keep trying. "_I'll know it when I feel it!_"

Racinet believes it is very unfair to the horse to ask him to do something that we don't understand ourselves. My friend in Korea would agree! A rider who holds the wrong mental image cannot even ask the horse the right question, let alone be ready to recognize the right answer!

There is a third aspect I dislike about the "Circle of Energy". If we believe we use the bit to "recycle energy" and return it to the rear, then our use of the bit becomes a favor to the horse. Keeping him between the driving aids and the restraining aids (bit) HELPS the horse move efficiently. But let's face it: A collected horse is not moving efficiently. It is not going from A to B with the least expenditure of energy possible! 











By Original work by: User:Chefsna From:nl.wikipedia - Own work (see http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afbeelding:Uitgestrektedraf.jpg), CC BY-SA 3.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=2825387

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dressage​ 
Surely we can agree that the motion above is not the most efficient way to move between two points!

It is OK to do that, just as it is OK for me to ask Bandit to work hard for a time for my pleasure. It isn't "wrong" - but can't we admit we are asking the horse to work hard? That he is working HARDER, not "lighter". And I am totally OK with it provided we admit what seems an obvious truth: We are asking the horse to work hard for our pleasure!

One of the best places to ask Bandit for a trot, and where he is most likely to give me a big, floaty trot, is in a section of sandy wash. The sand makes it hard work, but it is soft on his feet. If I stand in the stirrups and stay out of his mouth, he'll often give me a big, elevated trot for that short section (50 yards). Then...rocks. Rocks, rocks, rocks! ARGHHHHHH!!!!! *I love the desert but I hate it!
*
But it is straight and the footing is as good as it gets, and he doesn't mind. I just don't pretend it is easy for him.

And yes, he'll do it as well bitless and with a bit. That is part of the western tradition of riding - a horse needs to carry himself because the rider WILL NOT do it! Western riding says you are very directive with a young horse and rarely touch the mouth of a trained horse. That seems the opposite of the European tradition. 

It is something Littauer preached for average riders jumping, too. He said you should teach the horse to jump, then the average rider should stay out of the way and let him do it. He admitted that wouldn't win top show jumping competitions, but that it was the gentlest and safest way an average rider could jump. I don't jump so I'm taking his word for it.

I think we should be very careful focusing on using the bit more instead of less. That may bother some, but I'm a western rider in my approach to using bits. A Littauer disciple in terms of balance. Maybe I'm just confused!



SueC said:


> ...The circle of energy thing I see as a metaphor, and one that can help some people, but I think it's important for people to understand that there is no basis for those statements in the physical universe...


I see SueC just used 38 words to say what I wrote an article about...:clap:


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## bsms

Something of a PS: Three weeks after hurting MY foot jogging in the desert, I had X-rays to see why it is still sore. No sign of damage. A clean bill of health! The PA told me it will go away in time - and a week later, it is a little less awkward. But when I go jog, I find I use my left foot a little twisted to protect it.

If I was a horse, my owner would say, "_Didn't I have the vet X-ray your feet? Didn't you get a clean bill of health! NAUGHTY PONY! REBELLIOUS PONY! Don't you slow down, or Mr Crop will meet Mr Butt!_"

I'm sooooo glad I'm not a horse! :icon_rolleyes: 

My last run was two days ago. 95 F degrees. I was all out of zip before I got home, so I walked the last 3/4 mile. Bandit would understand: 

"_When it's time to relax._.."  ​ 







​


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## tinyliny

you're RUNNING in 95 degree heat??????!!!!! 



I'd be running for the swimming pool! or the fridge where I've got the cold beers.


The ONLY time I run is if I'm chased by a monster. And, of course, that happens like . . . . . . never.


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## SueC

bsms said:


> Still, as a mental image, the energy doesn't "recycle" at all. It is used.


Maybe there's an atomic reaction we don't know about when riding, which "recycles" matter into energy thusly: *E* = *mc*2

_Especially_ with Arabians!

;-)

Or maybe the energy is being stored as elastic potential energy! ;-) And then used again, but unfortunate to call that recycling!


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## SueC

Apologies for the superscript not working. Please imagine it, everyone!


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## SueC

tinyliny said:


> you're RUNNING in 95 degree heat??????!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> I'd be running for the swimming pool! or the fridge where I've got the cold beers.
> 
> 
> The ONLY time I run is if I'm chased by a monster. And, of course, that happens like . . . . . . never.


I can't even run properly, @tinyliny. That's why my horse thinks I'm special needs and he's my wheelchair. He tells me as much when I get off him to open gates on trails and walk a little with him; after a while he snorts a "let's go" and looks at me and stops and expects me to get on, because he knows he'll never get a proper run in if I'm leading him! :rofl:


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## bsms

I regularly dismount Bandit and lead him for 5 minutes. My daughter has noticed that when I go to mount up, Bandit often shoves at my butt with his nose. My daughter thinks Bandit is saying, "_Mount up old guy, time to get going!_" I kind of suspect he's thinking, "_How about I bite your butt so you won't get back on?_"

He acts good once I'm back on, so maybe my daughter is right. I hope so...HOPE so...:think:


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## bsms

Back to riding....

I've been thinking about trying something closer to what Littauer & the US Cavalry taught for the Forward Seat. I raised my stirrups one hole up from my previous "short-riding in arena" position, which was one hole longer than what the Cavalry recommended for flat work. Bandit was a little nervous - we hopefully will get rain today. The smell of it is in the air. The wind is blowing. But we were staying in the arena so mount up and ride.

Here is the cavalry position, from then Lt Col Chamberlin's book:








​ 
Let me give you a big hint about how things worked out by showing Bandit doing the Lookey-Loo in the Abetta:








​ 
Hmmm...one of these things doesn't look like the other!

Felt good at a walk. Time to trot! And as you've probably guessed - "whop! whop! whop! whop!"

Ever notice how interconnected things are? The shorter stirrups allow you to "fold" more above the stirrups. With more fold, more weight is put further to the front and to the back, stabilizing the body like a tight-rope walker's pole. The good news? Stable!

The bad news, as I'm sure you have guessed, is the 4" cantle of the Abetta was whopping on my butt! It occurred to me it might be a stability problem, although I felt stable. Since I had one hand free anyways, I took hold of the horn and we trotted with me being rock-solid stable! 

"whop! whop! whop! whop!"

Didn't annoy Bandit. They were mighty light whops, actually. But they annoyed the tar out of me! I made a number of attempts. Canter wasn't bad. But no way could I tolerate that trotting.

After 15 minutes, I dropped a hole. Back to my "arena" length. Less fold. A little more vertical. Stayed inside the seat of the saddle. W/T/C - all good. Tried sitting and standing. Preferred standing for the trot, sitting for the canter. Bandit preferred standing for the trot, had no discernible preference at a canter.

My neighbor climbed on his roof and started working on the tiles with a hammer. Bandit thought that was evil, but he stayed obedient. Elevated, and I didn't take him out of the road and try to push him past. I urged him close to the road a few times and he accepted it reluctantly. The arena stirrup length was fine for urging a reluctant horse on. It may become my do-all riding length.

But no higher. Not with a 4" cantle!

"whop! whop! whop! whop!"

Sigh.

The best laid schemes o’ Mice an’ Men
Gang aft agley, 

An’ lea’e us nought but grief an’ pain, 
For promis’d joy!

- To a Mouse (1785) by Robert Burns


https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43816/to-a-mouse-56d222ab36e33​


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## gottatrot

@bsms, if you figure out the mystery of stirrup length I will be interested to know the secret. I have never been able to figure it out. My suspicion is that things change as the horse is in different levels of shape and/or carries different weight. All I know is that I might ride for two months with a certain stirrup length, and then one day it feels too short or long. Maybe the leather also changes slightly with changes in the weather. Or maybe it is my legs since I also get into different levels of fitness. 



bsms said:


> It never occurred to me that calling the "Circle of Energy" stupid would be very controversial. As in my real life, I often misjudge how people will take things.
> 
> If someone had said, "It's a mental image that is supposed to help you use the bit in a way that shifts balance more to the rear"...well, how does ANYONE argue about mental images? They help a person or not, and it is totally personal in how much they help - or harm.
> 
> Still, as a mental image, the energy doesn't "recycle" at all. It is used.


Very good post. I guess others understand the concept of the circle of energy as a metaphor, but my instructors always taught it to me rather literally, and it definitely led me down wrong paths. There was always this paradox that was impossible to fulfill, where you both didn't focus on the horse's head because if you rode correctly from the rear, the head would supposedly drop over and the horse would look correct. But also you were always focused on the horse's head because the bit was recycling the energy back to the rear, and also you needed to "round" the back. 

Look at @Fimargue's horse. You can see how the balance point is far different for her with a rider than a large warmblood. I don't think physically she could shift her weight to the rear and also achieve that curved over look. When you have huge shoulders and a giant, muscular neck it is a far different balance point than when a horse has small, light shoulders and a small neck and head. Yet how many Warmbloods do you see that can get on the hind end like that. That is also why metaphors can't work universally for something like dressage. 

My mare Amore is built similarly, with most of her weight behind the girth. If you tried to "recycle" her between bit and leg as I was instructed, you were working with a small percentage of her body. Versus a warmblood with so much "horse" in front of the rider. With that type of horse the metaphor might be more useful for dressage. If you push that horse forward, you're dealing with a weightload of runaway force. So when you contact the bit it feels like you have to get the horse to bring that energy back toward the rear. 

And actually, the heavier a horse is on the forehand, the more you have that feeling. I've ridden a Thoroughbred that was so clumsy and heavy that we called him "Bowflex," and when he was green it felt like a rubber band of energy going back and forth between hind and head. 








An Arab (usually) does not feel like a runaway train. First, you usually don't even need to push the horse forward, they have self impulsion. The issue is that the rider often weights the forehand too much so the horse feels the need to hold the neck very high. If we try to hold the head low, it unbalances the horse more. If the horse is not willing to fall on the forehand, they will struggle.

They need to learn to_ move out_ freely with the rider in a good tempo so they can find the balance, and then they will shift the weight backward and use the base of the neck and shoulders more. But it will never look like a Warmblood. The constant cues required in dressage also require a lot more patient mental focus than most Arabs are capable of. Amore hated drilling in circles, although she always tried for me.



















bsms said:


> The other serious issue I have with it, even as a mental image, is the focus on the bit. As Jean Claude Racinet (a dressage rider) said, why not the poll? Why not the lips? Why not the front hooves, where it might actually be returning some energy to the rear? Why the bit?
> 
> I think the problem is with the concept of "round". Like the instructor who told me that if I urged Mia forward with my leg, and held her back with the bit, she would "round up" in between like a Slinky:
> 
> "Squeeze both ends and she'll round up!" - and people wonder why I'm underwhelmed by the local riding instructors!
> 
> ...Racinet's point is that too often, we train horses using the "I'll know it when I see it!" method. Wrong answer, horse. Still wrong answer. Still wrong. Still wrong. A little closer, maybe. Gotta think about how it felt to my butt. Keep trying. "I'll know it when I feel it!"
> 
> ...Racinet believes it is very unfair to the horse to ask him to do something that we don't understand ourselves. My friend in Korea would agree! A rider who holds the wrong mental image cannot even ask the horse the right question, let alone be ready to recognize the right answer!
> 
> ...There is a third aspect I dislike about the "Circle of Energy". If we believe we use the bit to "recycle energy" and return it to the rear, then our use of the bit becomes a favor to the horse...


Great points! 

Ask any horse and they will tell you the bit is something they put up with, not something they look forward to having so they can balance better. I'm learning about trying to find a bit the horse is fine about carrying in neutral, and also will tolerate cueing with. Then I can use the bit for my own needs, such as making sure the horse turns in time to prevent falling in a hole, or to make sure I can steer the horse if he decides to head in some unexpected direction. Or (currently), making sure going into a canter that if a buck turns into BUCK-ING that I can pull his head up in time to save my hide. Plus the bit or bitless is how I teach the horse to follow my weight and legs initially. As time goes on, they follow more with the rest of the body and you don't have to steer the front end as much.


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## bsms

Looking at the chapter on it in Racinet's book, I found he quoted Littauer as someone who agreed with the idea that you could hold energy between your legs. Sad to say, it was there. Evidence that someone can be very open to innovation in one area but never consider other approaches in a different area. Littauer's original schooling was heavily in dressage, as taught by James Fillis to the Russian Cavalry. One of my regrets is that while Littauer thought heavily about balance and the forward system of riding, he retained the idea that slack reins = beginning rider and more rein = advanced rider. I obviously fall under the common western influence that more rein is what you use on a green horse, and advanced riding means the horse has to do it all without reliance on the bit for balance. Or even for much control.



> Suppose that after you have established contact between your hands and the mouth of a schooled horse you were to continue to urge the horse forward and you were to do it with increased strength. What will happen then?
> 
> The horse will try to increase the speed of the gait. But if, at the same time, you restrain him with your hands just enough to maintain the original speed yet continue to urge, then the horse will accept the bit more firmly, slightly leaning on it. Concurrently, the energy which your legs have created and which your hands will have prevented from being transformed into speed will form a reserve on energy inclosed between legs and hands...
> 
> The cooperation between your legs and hands will enable you to obtain the maximum of unity between the actions of the hindquarters and the forehand. The horse's gait may become what is called brilliant. A movement of better quality, academically speaking, is characteristic of riding fully on the bit. - VS Littauer, Schooling Your Horse pg 53


Regardless of my fondness for Littauer, that is filled with stupidity and blindness.

"_then the horse will accept the bit more firmly_"

"Accept" is not the right word. It may accept the bit, in the sense of not actively fighting it, but it isn't "seeking" the bit. Seeking is what the horse does when he is interested in the rider's thoughts, not something resulting from being held back with the bit. Because let's face it. The rider is ON the horse! When the horse moves faster, the rider moves faster too. If his hands do nothing, then the bit remains motionless relative to the horse.

When I was in the rear cockpit of an F-4 going 1.2 times the speed of sound, I could still drop my mask and shout to the pilot in front of me. That we were going faster than the speed of sound didn't mean he couldn't hear me because we were both moving the same speed at the same time.

You cannot drive a horse on to the bit while riding the horse because the additional drive pushes your body and hands along with the horse. You can tell yourself you are driving the horse on to the bit, but the mouthpiece will not change pressure in the horse's mouth unless the hands create more pressure.

"_if, at the same time, you restrain him with your hands just enough to maintain the original speed yet continue to urge_"

A much more honest assessment of what he is describing! But now the horse has conflicting signals - go fast because the rider's legs are asking him to, and to hold back because the rider's hands are asking him to do that. So...what to do? Simple case of diametrically opposing cues.

And the horse does what he always does - seeks release. Seeks to please, if you will. What will make my rider happy, so he will stop squeezing me and pulling on me? The horse now starts to experiment. What movement does the rider want? And when he stumbles on the answer - because the rider sure isn't setting him up for success! - he hopefully remembers what gave him relief.

Eventually, if he guesses right enough, and gets release quickly enough, he figures out: When my rider does these things, respond in this manner. And that is precisely Racinet's point. How do we teach the horse when we ourselves are not sure what we want him to do? The poor horse is like my fellow officer, working thru the night, trying to solve a puzzle without the pieces!

"_Concurrently, the energy which your legs have created_"

More hogwash! The rider never creates energy. The HORSE creates it in response to a request by the rider. *That is not mere semantics.* To understand that the horse does work in response to our requests is a huge leap in understanding for anyone used to thinking, "_I create impulsion!_"

"_which your hands will have prevented_"



> Last but not least, the new axiom is set forth: *‘Hands without legs, legs without hand.*”
> 
> “As he heard it, Major Gerhardt, an adept of the ‘first manner’ exclaimed, ‘Then Baucher is no longer Baucher!’ Quite the contrary, Baucher was becoming Baucher. This axiom ‘hand without legs, legs without hand’ appeared for the first time in 1864, with the 12th edition of the ‘method’.
> 
> Baucher, Francois | The Horse Magazine


As a rule, I prefer Baucher's "Hands without legs, legs without hands" to Littauer's using both to squeeze the horse into "brilliance"...

"_will form a reserve on energy inclosed between legs and hands_"

Horses are not batteries. They do not store energy. They use it. There are some instances where a stretched tendon, for example, can store potential energy. But that is not what is being described here.

I can say this categorically: Mia could have and use tremendous energy without being collected! ANY horse can create so much energy so quickly that we are left clinging to them, hoping not to fall, because we cannot handle the energy they can create in a fraction of a second! I suspect Nala's rider would agree!

"_obtain the maximum of unity between the actions of the hindquarters and the forehand_"

If the horse was inanimate, that might make sense. But my horses move around all day, coordinating motion between the front legs and the rear, doing so with amazing grace and power - all without me being within 100 feet of them!

I had to go back to November 20 2015 for the pictures below:








​ 
Back then, Bandit often showed a disconnect between front and rear. My theory was that the 800 lb horse carrying up to 300 lbs on his back got used to using front and back disconnectedly - since I had never seen any other horse do this all the time!

I don't think Bandit has done that for several years now. Without a lot of weight between the front and back, he is free to use them as he does when not ridden. And even back in 2015, I never saw Bandit act like that *un*ridden!

On rare instances, a horse will disconnect between his legs because of terrain or some awkwardness of motion. But by November of 2016, a year later, Bandit's motion almost always looked like this:








​ 
Regardless, it is just silly to say a rider needs to or even CAN unify the front legs and the rear. We can only force a disconnect.

--------------------------------------------------

Unspoken in what Littauer was writing or in what others often write is the idea that a human rider replaces the horse's brain! As one book on dressage put it, we become the horse's "control center". We hold a horse together. We "prevent" them from dropping a shoulder with a rein - which is another incredibly stupid statement. "Body Control" - taught by western or European - is DUMB. We do not EVER control the horse's legs, neck, tail, shoulders, etc. Not unless we rope him and tie him up motionless. Because all motion by a horse starts in the horse's BRAIN. The horse's brain, and ONLY the horse's brain, tells the horses muscles to contract, release, etc!

ANY instructor or writer who suggests otherwise - including Littauer, who has taught me so much - is blowing smoke up the rider's butt!

With horses, ALL MOVEMENT STARTS IN THE HORSE'S BRAIN!

PS: Riding Bandit today, I sometimes dropped the reins (a 9' loop) and let him choose direction and speed. It made it a bit harder to stay on him since he could change direction without MY anticipating it. Good practice for my seat, I think. And amazingly, he held himself together and turned coordinated turns, all with my reins hanging from the horn.


----------



## SueC

A couple of points from back a little...



bsms said:


> What helps me are explanations or evidence. It doesn't have to be published. After all, I strongly disagree with some published papers, too. But I need to know WHY doing X has helped or harmed. And I need to see some correlation between what others say and what my horses say.


I think that's a very reasonable position. And about those papers, I think a lot of people misunderstand science, and the purpose of papers. The purpose of scientific papers is discussion and peer review. And yet people will say to you, "Oh, but @*bsms* or whoever, I saw this published in this prestigious journal, how dare you question it, and clearly you think you're more of an authority than Expert X." That's how it often goes, no? I mean, I've had that here, and I'm a qualified scientist with research experience! :rofl: But I'm not supposed to participate in "expert" debate. You what? ;-)

That's science as an organised religion, a hierarchy of authority. I don't even think you need a degree in science to participate in the debate, but you do need an open mind, and faculties for logical thinking and fair, rational debate. I think one of the reasons our society is so lame is that so many people love to hand their brains over to be moulded in a jelly mould. Ooooh, I like _that_ shape! I'll have that one! :rofl: So much easier than being responsible for it yourself, and instead of thinking for yourself, you can sit in a chair and snipe at others whose brains aren't the same shape jelly mould as yours, and accuse them of altitude and thinking they're better than everyone else. (Which are psychological projections of their own flaws back onto other people, anyway.)

Research papers aren't supposed to be dogma, they're hypotheses and theories up for evaluation, by peer review. Not soccer clubs to join and barrack for, and wear the colours of.

Often though, scientists themselves, being human and carrying various baggage, forget this, and this is a disservice to science. Science at its best does what @*gottatrot* related about her switched-on and forthright debating with her colleague. That way it's an evolutionary process, and understanding improves, instead of being obscured and mythologised.


And now a photo critique:









So dressage isn't about effective ways of moving from A to B, it's a dance with your horse. We don't tango around the athletics track. ;-) But it can be fun in a hall.

And I love (classical) dressage, but this photograph, and I don't know and don't care who it is, displays so much of what I don't like about the way some horses are encouraged to move in modern dressage. To me, the horse looks forced into a frame here, instead of carrying himself with grace and enjoyment. His neck is so jammed up. Also, the whole rear end has disengaged and is out of harmony with the front end. The rear leg isn't stepping under the horse's centre of gravity, and the front leg is doing a Spanish Steps impersonation.

Compare that to how @*Spanish Rider* 's lesson horses move in her Dressage thread. I'll cut and paste a really lovely clip here which she kindly posted on our 40+ social thread. Just love this. She has taken this on as something different to learn and only started 5 months ago.






If I had a TARDIS I'd save up my beans and take a lesson on that horse ASAP. This is a horse who enjoys his dancing and does it well. I think Arabians and Spanish horses have a great disposition for classical dressage because they're natural show-offs and love to learn new tricks, given the right atmosphere and rider. This horse is moving beautifully, and carrying himself beautifully, and makes many modern dressage horses look totally robotic and pedestrian. This horse is expressing part of his natural personality, instead of just being trained to regurgitate dressage moves.

It's expression, teamwork and joie de vivre I love about classical dressage - as opposed to modern dressage's focus on submission to the rider.

@*Fimargue* , what do you think?

@*Spanish Rider* , you? (you lucky duck you )


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## SueC

Great posts, everyone - very productive and interesting! 



gottatrot said:


> Ask any horse and they will tell you the bit is something they put up with, not something they look forward to having so they can balance better. I'm learning about trying to find a bit the horse is fine about carrying in neutral, and also will tolerate cueing with. Then I can use the bit for my own needs, such as making sure the horse turns in time to prevent falling in a hole, or to make sure I can steer the horse if he decides to head in some unexpected direction. Or (currently), making sure going into a canter that if a buck turns into BUCK-ING that I can pull his head up in time to save my hide. Plus the bit or bitless is how I teach the horse to follow my weight and legs initially. As time goes on, they follow more with the rest of the body and you don't have to steer the front end as much.


When it is at its very best, I think your connection to the horse's mouth feels like holding hands with your horse. And skipping along together!


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## SueC

Oh, and I forgot this.
@*bsms* , you gave us Burns. :clap:

Here's Causley. ;-) Another bard of great depth.


*I Saw A Jolly Hunter*

I saw a jolly hunter 
 With a jolly gun 
Walking in the country 
In the jolly sun. 

In the jolly meadow 
Sat a jolly hare. 
Saw the jolly hunter. 
Took jolly care. 

Hunter jolly eager- 
Sight of jolly prey. 
Forgot gun pointing 
Wrong jolly way. 

Jolly hunter jolly head 
Over heels gone. 
Jolly old safety catch 
Not jolly on. 

Bang went the jolly gun. 
Hunter jolly dead. 
Jolly hare got clean away. 
Jolly good, I said.
 

 _By Charles Causley_


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## SueC

Hello again. ;-) Sorry to make a tapeworm of posts; but you're all asleep and it's daytime here, and this thread has been moving fast.

*Quote:*
Originally Posted by *bsms* View Post 
_It never occurred to me that calling the "Circle of Energy" stupid would be very controversial.

_:rofl: I can see both sides of this one.

I admire @*gottatrot* 's high standards of diplomacy in these debates. It's an excellent example she's setting. Because if someone told _me_ something I'd discussed was _stupid_, it's only human that I'd turn off. Even, God forbid, if it were literally true! :rofl: I certainly wouldn't feel respected, or heard. Despite the fact that the epithet was directed at the _statement_, not the person! - Directing it at the _person_ is rarely ever OK; even if they demonstrably are, and have been measured and standardised as such against a universally accepted definition. ;-)

_Mea culpa_ though, from a way back anecdote here, because I also really get where @*bsms* is coming from. First year university, I was set an essay in the theme course _Evolution & Change_ (a cool course including chaos theory, amazing astrophysics concepts, social issues etc) where we had to look at religious fundamentalism vs Darwinism. I was still 16, which isn't the pinnacle of social and emotional maturity even if your intellect is fine, and the dirty fighting antics (as talked about before on this thread) of the fundamentalists in these debates really annoyed me. They were so disrespectful of both the topic and the persons, so ready to ridicule things they actually made no discernible effort to understand. So sure they had _all_ the answers, and that the world was black and white. So sure that because they didn't understand how something worked, it _must_ be wrong. And often so gleefully tribal, like those hooligan soccer teams.

(And you know, it's actually interesting that Dawkins and others from that side also often argue dirty like a fundamentalist as well; and good on Alain de Botton and others for pointing out exactly that.)

And I used the word _stupid_ at one point in my essay to describe an argument of theirs. In this case it actually was a stupid argument, in the true sense of the word, not just "stupid" as in shorthand for "not sufficiently congruent with my own opinion". 

But I got called in for a chat about that one, by the course coordinator. He'd given me a C on the essay, and I was shocked! He was trying to explain to me why this wasn't the best approach. And I opened the dictionary and read out the various definitions and said, "But it's demonstrably all of A and B and C, so why can't I use the corresponding word in the dictionary for it? Do we have a word taboo, words we're not allowed to use? How does that work?"

In part it's a cultural thing. In Germany, saying that something is stupid because it actually is, is far more acceptable. Germans are very direct. And when they say something is interesting, they mean it as a compliment - as I always do, when I'm using that word, even if I'm using the English word, and even though the English often use the word to mean almost the opposite - it's what they say if they can't say something nice, because they have such difficulty with directness!  I'm aware of that, but I'm determined to reclaim that word for its positive and honest meaning.

Anyway, I really struggled with that, at 16 - because logically it makes no sense. What I had to learn is that we human beings aren't logical... :rofl:

I think that's one reason why the UK drama series _Doc Martin_ is so amusing - because he says it how it is, and it's such a faux pas to do it, and yet many of us have a part of ourselves that's just dying to say what he's saying! And we go: :rofl: :clap:


I'll leave you with a song about this topic. In the album sleeve, the illustration for this song is a black knight and a white knight approaching each other with weapons, and the words below them, _Each sees his own side but no other_.


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## egrogan

I don't have the language of biomechanics nor dressage to really engage in these conversations, but have a few uneducated thoughts kicking around about all this debate.

I think I can accept the metaphor of "circle of energy" or "working from behind." It's been a couple of months since I've had lessons. But, even at the very elementary level we were working, as BO helped me with how I was asking Fizz to "engage" and "step under," it was a bit of asking to go forward with leg while also "containing" with hand. 

She is very forward moving and "creating energy" is not an issue with her. But to get her to really start to bring her hind legs up and under herself, rather than "trailing out behind her" the best exercises we did were lots of trotting over poles. Once BO convinced me to stop letting her charge toward the poles but actually ask her for a relatively slow, controlled approach so she really had to think about how she stepped up and over each one, everything else about how she felt would change for the rest of the ride. Change how? Well, I guess I would say she felt more like a united whole, rather than a couple of pieces fit together. She would feel more powerful in the "up" that I got from the surface I was sitting on, and have more "up" than forward. And she wouldn't feel like she was rushing "out the front" like she would in our warm up. Anyway, musings of a novice, take for what you will :wink:

I think most people would watch her and say she likes to travel a little "strung out" when left to move as she pleases. I don't have a lot of pictures of me riding, but here she is moving forward pretty much as she'd like to, and I am clearly not helping her much with my awkward balance.








Forward yes, but her hind legs are not "pushing" as much as she can.

Trying poles for the second or third time- certainly got her paying attention to her hind legs! But all sorts of rushing and discombobulated....









But got more rhythmic as we practiced, and when I figured out how to ask her to come into the poles in a more balanced, controlled way, she started really reaching under with the hind legs. (And I assume it goes without saying for readers on this thread that I do NOT think this is an example of an advanced, well educated horse OR rider, I know this is baby stuff and that's where both of us are).


















And of course, she is proving she can be quite rounded up here :wink:









To move to a decidedly non-novice though...has anyone watched this video that made the rounds a couple of months ago of Isabell Werth on her retired champion doing piaffe, passage, and flying changes bareback and in a halter? Pretty clear evidence that the bit is not the key here, at least not at this stage in Satchmo's education. Interesting though that he is still "mouthing" at the non-existent bit. And you can also see the power through his back as she's sitting that huge trot.





And here she is on Weihegold in the 2017 World Cup championships





For some reason I have a satellite channel that shows lots of dressage, so I've watched her ride dozens of times over the past couple of years. I always thought she seemed like a fairly "forceful" rider - not aggressive exactly, but she is very active with her hands. Though the horses she rides do, at least to a casual tv viewer, seem to enjoy what they are doing. I don't know anything about dressage politics so don't know how she is regarded as a horsewoman. But it was nice to see her in the other video having fun bareback and brideless and telling the horse how good he was.

And speaking of Iberian horses who love their dressage jobs, is there any that looks prouder of himself than Fuego?? Those one-handed flying changes (and "good boy" pats he wasn't supposed to get) :grin: And the beautiful walk.





I'll stop now because I've probably said way more than I'm "qualified" to say.


----------



## bsms

SueC said:


> ...We don't tango around the athletics track. ;-) But it can be fun in a hall....
> 
> ...Compare that to how @*Spanish Rider* 's lesson horses move in her Dressage thread. I'll cut and paste a really lovely clip here...This is a horse who enjoys his dancing and does it well. I think Arabians and Spanish horses have a great disposition for classical dressage because they're natural show-offs and love to learn new tricks, given the right atmosphere and rider...


I agree. When Bandit feels like giving me a big, floaty trot around the arena, it is fun. But - this is important - I haven't taught him any cues that allow me to ASK him to do so. That tool is missing from my tool box! And there is ZERO wrong with wanting that tool! 

Bandit had a lot of baggage when he arrived - almost literally, for carrying 300 lbs of rider and tack on his 800 lb body for 10-15 mile runs! His front feet have gone from 4.5 inches across to 5.25 inches across. He used his left front leg at a 40 degree angle which may be why he still is reluctant to canter to the right.

I'd LIKE to have that tool, but Bandit has needed to learn he can be ridden like a normal relaxed horse! If I ever decide to try to acquire that tool, though, I'll read up on clicker training. Bandit often enough will give me floaty movements on his own. I think simple clicker training would allow me to install that button, so to speak, without even using the bit.

Mia would actually have been a good dressage horse. You would have to keep mixing things up. She got bored easily. But she loved doing things together with her rider, was very aware, and a hopeless show-off! A good rider could teach her to love her dressage lessons! And once she loved it, she would work very intently. It was her nature.

But she would have needed a rider who could teach her it was "play" first. Then "showing off". Once he got her thinking it was about her showing off for fun, and that it made her rider happy, she would work at it. But make it "work" at the start and she would have hated it!

I'm often accused of hating dressage. I don't. I hate forced dressage and I hate the idea that everyone needs to do it to have a healthy, happy horse. I hate the idea that the horse needs a human to tell it how to balance. And I'm enough of a western rider to dislike the look, at least, of constant tension on the reins.

But done with the right horse, in the spirit of fun, then I think dressage training could be a joy for both horse and rider.

Science: When I was getting my degree in Biology, I was told the most important part of any scientific paper was the part describing how the experiment was set up. "_The data collected may be statistically significant. The conclusions drawn from the data obvious. But if the experiment was set up wrong, it all is worthless!_"


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## bsms

SueC said:


> ...When it is at its very best, I think your connection to the horse's mouth feels like holding hands with your horse. And skipping along together!


Not so sure about the skipping part. I've been told often, by people who have never met me or my horse, that I don't know what good contact is. As if I never use it. But one uses it a lot in the beginning. The difference is many western riders will try to use LESS contact as the horse progresses rather than more.

There are times Bandit wants to know what I think. At those times, the reins are a very good tool. If things are happening fast, contact may need to be kept until things slow down. That, to me, is "seeking contact". It isn't something I do TO the horse, but something he ASKS from me - hence the word "seeking"! In that case, it doesn't need to be super light, either. If I overdo it, he won't mind. Because HE WANTS TO KNOW.

But needed for safety? While strolling along a road? And "on the bit" with a vertical head carriage? What in the heck does THAT have to do with ANYTHING? And yes, even Mia got to where she could stroll along a road. At the end, she would only toss in an occasional 360 degree spin every couple of weeks....:icon_rolleyes:

Probably checking my reactions, like Cato in the Pink Panther:






I'll add this. I used to go jogging with other people sometimes. I never felt the need to hold hands with them while jogging. My wife and I go for long walks together. We may holds hands briefly, but we don't do it for 2 hours straight! The horse will feel some pressure in his mouth, even with a snaffle, before the reins are a straight line. Thus I was actually riding with contact in the photo below:








​ 
Nothing wrong with it, but like I said: I don't hold hands for 2 hours, even with my wife of 31 years! She likes being independent too! :rofl:








​


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## SueC

That Clouseau! 

When I described what good rein contact feels like, I wasn't implying that it's supposed to be a permanent state!  Or that it's always me who seeks the contact. And there's naturally a lot more hand-holding in dancing than there is in bushwalking, skiing or skydiving. ;-)

I just loved that bareback, halter-only dressage clip @egrogan posted. Great stuff.

How much annual rainfall does your area get?

...oh no, I've temporarily run out of words. Have a good weekend, all!


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## bsms

egrogan said:


> ......But to get her to really start to bring her hind legs up and under herself, rather than "trailing out behind her" the best exercises we did were lots of trotting over poles...
> 
> ......She would feel more powerful in the "up" that I got from the surface I was sitting on, and have more "up" than forward...
> 
> I think most people would watch her and say she likes to travel a little "strung out" when left to move as she pleases. I don't have a lot of pictures of me riding, but here she is moving forward pretty much as she'd like to, and I am clearly not helping her much with my awkward balance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​ Forward yes, but her hind legs are not "pushing" as much as she can...
> 
> ...I'll stop now because I've probably said way more than I'm "qualified" to say.


You actually are extremely qualified to say. I have little interest in dressage as practiced by professional riders on specially bred horses. My interest and sometimes conflict is with what people say about dressage at the "average" level. Particularly when I'm told all horses need to do it.

Racinet convinced me - along with every bio-mechanical study I've seen - that horses cannot "round", but certainly can "lift". "*More up than forward*" is a good description, I think, of what a horse CAN do. Bandit does it when he's feeling his beans, but I lack any way of telling him "Do that now". A part of dressage training is to teach the horse the cue. I have ZERO problem with that! I find it 100% reasonable. May even try it with Bandit a few years from now. Or not.

I don't think your horse is "strung out" at all. Not in a bad way, unless you are looking for "lift" instead of "forward". I strongly dislike terms like "strung out". I know how it feels. I've been on Mia and Bandit when they WERE strung out. But I also know they can feel vastly different while maintaining almost the exact same appearance.

I posted this picture some years back and was told Trooper was "hollow", "strung out" and "out of control". 








​
I've ridden Bandit a LOT when he used to hollow all the time, and it is rough riding. My daughter wouldn't be having fun if Trooper was "hollow". Nor is that "strung out". It is a very natural frame. And when my daughter felt they had enough, Trooper slowed without her consciously asking - because Trooper really stays in tune with her and often responds to her wishes before she gives a cue. THAT IS CONTROL - or as Baucher put it, "*Let him think that he is our master, then he is our slave.*"

After I posted this picture of Bandit, I was told (on this thread IIRC) that he was unbalanced and disgusting:








​ 
Why? Well...look at his head! How can a horse like that be called "balanced"? I dunno....








Bandit used to show a huge disconnect between his front and rear. I suspect a horse who carries 35% of more of his weight on his back is reaching a point where the weight prevents him from using his legs together - particularly when ridden. Because Bandit STILL moved balanced without a rider.

Bandit is certainly not "unbalanced". His balance is very natural. Unlike Mia, I've never seen him fall (and happily, Mia never fell WITH me, only while unridden). I've watched Bandit racing around loose. His balance is superb. He retains some of that with me, although he has had to learn he can trust me with his back.

"Hind legs pushing". The section below is from Science of Motion. I find dressage puts too much emphasis on how far the hind legs travel under the horse in the mistaken belief that hind legs underneath support the horse better. The quote isn't easy reading, but I think it is correct:



> The problem and the reason why these riding and training techniques are keeping talented horses below their real athletic abilities and cripple a large percentages of them is that *the supporting hind leg does not propel the body upward as soon as ground contact. At the contrary, the supporting hind leg decelerates the horse’s body from impact and until about 45% of the support phase.*
> 
> The joints of the alighting hind leg fold resisting attraction of gravity and inertia forces. This cumulus of forces is often referred to as “impact forces.” This sequence of the stride is referred to as “braking phase.” The term braking is confusing. A good comparison is the work of your leading leg as you are walking down hill with a back pack of about 15 pounds. Your leading leg impacts and your knee extensors muscles decelerate your body resisting attraction of gravity and inertia forces. Without this decelerating action, gravity would make you run faster and faster until the bottom of the hill. Technically, your leading leg is ”braking.”
> 
> However you leg is not rigid bracing against the ground; forward motion never stops. The joints of your leg fold resisting attraction of gravity and inertia forces. The work of your knee extensor muscles is essentially eccentric, which is a powerful type of muscle contraction. As you are walking and not jogging, the strain energy created by the eccentric contraction is not immediately reused and therefore is dissipate as heat. If you are not trained at hiking up and down hill, you will experience muscle soreness the next day.
> 
> At impact and until the peak vertical, which is the instant where the hind leg is acting vertically onto the ground, *the supporting hind leg decelerates the horse’s body. The decelerating phase is the sequence of the stride where the supporting hind leg is involved in controlling balance*.
> 
> *After the peak vertical, the supporting hind leg propels the horse’s body forward. The hind limb is no longer under the body but is rather behind the horse’s body.* The net effect is therefore a force in the direction of the motion.
> 
> The thrust generated by the hind legs travels forward through the horse’s thoracolumbar column and is submitted to the attraction of gravity. A percentage of the thrust generated by the hind legs is therefore loading the forelegs. The forelegs are designed to compensate for this loading effect propelling the horse body essentially upward....
> 
> Medium Trot


I believe horses figure out how far they NEED to bring their legs under them simply by practicing riding with a rider. The more varied the terrain, the more accomplished they become. I put railroad ties in the corral so Mia would learn she sometimes needed to pick up her feet. She had lived in corrals. Bandit has roamed unrestricted on thousands of acres, but it was this sort of terrain:








​ 
He didn't get the practice of scrambling up or down steep hills. Trooper, OTOH, grew up in the mountains of Utah. He doesn't blink an eye at steep hills!

What I reject - because I see no evidence for it - is that horses need a rider to teach them balance. They need experience. But it seems obvious that when the terrain gets rough, we give the horses' "their heads" - and hope they can save us! I think everyone knows, in their hearts, that horses can balance best when we try to balance them least.

As much as I get frustrated by the rocks here, I love the fact that we have no level ground. Walking down a wash, the horse will have many challenges to his balance. Big rocks hidden just under the sand will threaten to twist his legs. I know because I jog along those washes. I've felt it! ATV trails constantly tilt from side to side. We drop 5-10 feet into a wash, then later climb back out.










I'm also lucky to have a few hundred acres to ride in any time I want. That is pretty rare.

Living where I do and riding where I do, I put very little emphasis on a horse lifting. Others do and that is fine. We don't all need to take the same approach to having fun with horses!

My beef comes when I'm told I need to teach Bandit balance. I've seen him zip around, dodging obstacles, jumping, twisting, harassing Trooper - and Bandit needs no lessons in balance from me! My beef comes when I'm told dressage is "proper riding" and trail riders suck. Or when I'm told dressage is the foundation that all other riding rests on.

No objections to people doing dressage to have fun with their horses!

Sorry about responding with a novel, but I respect your opinion and wanted to take it seriously. Besides...we FINALLY got some rain today! The Tucson Airport has gone 105 days without even 0.01 inches of rain, @*SueC* ! Tucson averages 11 inches of rain/year. Where I live, we get more...think I saw 14". Regardless, after over 3 months without a drop, southern Arizona NEEDS this rain. The corrals are gloriously MUDDY now! But...I'm stuck inside! ​


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## bsms

People get mad at me when I post this picture from a record setting performance:








​ 
I have ZERO desire to canter with Bandit that way! It looks like very hard work. It looks like it would be miserable to try to balance on the horse riding with one hand. It just has nothing to do with what I call fun!

Doesn't make it wrong. There are dressage riders I cannot stand to watch, but she isn't one of them. My goals with Bandit are for either a relaxed, gentle canter. Or a fast one. All I ask is for people to accept that Bandit and I can have fun, stay balanced, and be safe without taking dressage lessons. That doesn't seem too much for me to ask.

Oh...and as @SueC points out, my "tact" could use some work! :rofl: I know it. Like Ray Hunt wrote:

"_Admire the horse for the good things he does and just kinda ignore the wrong things. First thing you know, the good things will get better and the bad things will get less._"​


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## Fimargue

Oh, wow, there is a lot of stuff going on here.

First, Trooper in the photo is not hollow. Out of control... :icon_rolleyes: Lord have mercy. 
Second, no, horses do not need us to balance them. But we can put them out of balance, which happens when folks ride their ponies _oh so nicely_ on the bit on the forehand.

Dressage is not everything there is. I'm actually fairly new to it myself. Before I was riding the distance wanting to do endurance. I remember very clearly telling my mentor that if ever do dressage, it is something like training level. Dressage is her discipline of choice, but not once she tried to sell it to me, or said I needed it. She liked to talk about it, and I listened because it was interesting and made sense the way explained things. 

She herself had a burnout from the modern dressage and left to the US to work in ranch. When she came back she took off the shoes and rugs (unless really needed) and people would tell her "Friend, your horses are out... F: Yes? Nosy Person: .. it's raining F: I know. NP: They're getting all wet! *shock horror*". Then she found the classical training and then Nuno Oliveira's student found her and proposed to work with her because she didn't ride like the others (meaning with force and two kilos in each hand for contact like they bloody teach).

Back to me. So yes, the switch just went on out of the blue and I started to do dressage and got hooked on it. And now my ambition would be to go to Prix Saint Georges someday.

I try to use reins as little as possible, they're there to refine the cue, but they do not pull, collect or "keep the horse "together. Is the core that does that. The people who half halt only with reins, do not understand what a half halt is.

Half halt to me is the moment between and before the next cue when you stop moving with the horse to ask him something else. Because technically a well started green horse slows down and eventually stops when you stop moving with him (unless it's a horse who wants to go go). That makes half halt exactly what it says it is. On the other hand there is a half halt from the rein that does notify something is coming. But technically these two should go hand in hand. Reins are needed when you teach and refine stuff. And before time you find that your horse reads your body signals so well that the reins are not much needed

Anyways, a complicated subject.

What comes to Valegro. When you have a big uphill canter.. Well, he is not falling on his nose that horse, because he has a powerful hind end. Amazing horse and a good rider. She herself said that "short reins bring medals", so it's unfortunately not a choice when you're at that level.
@egrogan, you don't have to be a dressage guru to have an opinion and discuss about it. 

You know what gets you a horse that sits - *rein backs*. I can never repeat this enough. I do lots of transitions to and from rein back. When I teach my student on my previous mare, I ask her to do lots of rein backs and transitions between big and small trot and trot, walk, halt, trot, halt. Because that horse is forward and she will just run if you let her. Everything always starts from behind and ends there. 

With her other horse we lots of big trot, small trot - but to get him more forward, he has to react to the leg, and walk to trot, which is trot then 2-4 strides of walk and you have to prepare the horse forward before you give the cue.

I don't like Isabell Werth because even though she is without a doubt very effective in what she does, she is a very hands on and mechanical rider. She believes in riding the horse deep and has used hyperflexion.


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## Spanish Rider

@SueC told me to get my butt over here to add my two cents' worth. I don't know that I have even that much to add!

First of all, I am very embarrassed to see my video here. For those of you who do not know me, I broke my back 4 years ago and have had an arduous recovery. For years I rode hunt seat, although I was no longer jumping. I was trained that a forward "light" seat was best for the horse's back, that forwardness was our goal, that I had to ride a huge jumper because of my size. However, my back could not handle hunt seat anymore (3 unfused bones), and I decided to try dressage as a last ditch effort this past December (by that time, I had developed so much inflammation and pain that I could only work at a walk in a hunter/jumper saddle).

I was leary of Dressage, though. I had read the articles, seen certain evidence. Immediately, I was unsure of the bits (TWO!), thicker noseband, etc. But, I immediately noticed the difference in the quality and wellbeing of the horses I began riding. No cracked skin or white spots on the withers, no wrapping necessary after riding because of all the inflammation, no sway back. These horses are built, muscular, with well-developed backs, strong yet supple. Contact is light (I could not use a stronger contact if I wanted to because of my back), responses are instantaneous because there is a desire to work together and please, not because the horse is being forced. And, my pain is gone. Literally gone. I started trotting my first class and cantering by my third, and I previously had not been able to canter in more than a year.

As @egrogan mentioned, working from back to front in search of contact is something hard to understand if you have never done it, but it is very gratifying. In that instant, we balance each other, horse and rider. It is not a case of the horse finding its balance under me and I trying to follow the horse. No. The horses rely on me to provide them with balancing (more contact, less contact, head position, bend, flexion, etc.) so that they can understand what I want and physically respond correctly, and we find a joint balance, working as one. If a horse is too forward, with no contact, it cannot balance itself and respond with a passage or Spanish step. In simpler circumstances, an unbalanced horse cannot provide a collected canter, cannot resist falling in or drifting out in circles. Furthermore, there is a sense of implicit trust: as that horse collects and lowers its head, it also reduces its field of vision. He is concentrating on what I want, trusting me to be the leader. I do not like the term "submission". I am not forcing the horse to do anything. He is doing his best to do what I want out of trust. And, which I had never thought possible, as that horse collects at a canter and lowers his head in trust, I can release my contact out of trust in him (and if you've ever had a major accident, you know that this is a BIG thing).

So, I don't know if anything I have to say is relevant to this discussion. I glanced at the last couple of pages quickly. I know that @SueC used the video of Presu to exemplify a naturally moving, expressive horse. He is definitely that! After all, his name is "Presumido" meaning "Show Off". As a Spanish Purebred, he has what we call "_mucho arte_". It is interesting to see how the horses in international competition are moving towards more "automated" movements. I wonder if at some point Dressage will come to have two subdivisions in the future, one more stringent and athletic, another more artsy and naturally free-flowing, sort of like figure skating vs. ice dancing.

But, of course, what do I know?


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## SueC

these posts!  Thank you, ladies. Sorry if I embarrassed you, Spanish!


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## bsms

"_No cracked skin or white spots on the withers, no wrapping necessary after riding because of all the inflammation, no sway back. These horses are built, muscular, with well-developed backs, strong yet supple._" - @*Spanish Rider* 

Don't really know what you were exposed to before, but if it was what you described, then it was simply abuse. Consider the horse below. His rider has never had a single lesson. During the previous 2 days, he covered about 55-60 miles total. And like any of my horses, no swayback, no wrapping needed, etc. He normally is ridden 10-14 hours/day, 3-4 times a week, with an untrained rider:








​ 
Bandit came here after being used much harder. One of the riders who worked him for training weighed "at least 265 lbs in his socks", so about 300 lbs total with gear. He was cantered/galloped 10-15 mile training runs. Bandit weighs 800 lbs. That is 37.5% of his weight!

Bandit DID brace his back like an I-beam when he arrived, but there were no sores and no sign really that his back has been injured. His legs may have been. I'd need X-rays to make a guess, but he can move pretty fluidly now. And I'm a self-taught rider who ignores almost everything taught in traditional dressage.

BTW - Bandit is 15.0 hands tops & I weigh 170 lbs in my underwear on a light day! Like many in the western US, I ignore what a lot of people say about how much weight a horse can carry.

"_It is not a case of the horse finding its balance under me and I trying to follow the horse. No. The horses rely on me to provide them with balancing (more contact, less contact, head position, bend, flexion, etc.) so that they can understand what I want and physically respond correctly, and we find a joint balance, working as one._"

That is part of dressage, but also something I refuse to do. My horse's job is to balance himself. My job is to let him & stay out of his way. That is obviously not a traditional dressage approach, but it has worked well for us. That doesn't mean you should follow me! It merely means there is more than one way to ride a happy horse!

"_Furthermore, there is a sense of implicit trust: as that horse collects and lowers its head, it also reduces its field of vision. He is concentrating on what I want, trusting me to be the leader._"

That simply would not work for us. Could not. It is fine in an arena, with even ground. Where we go, there is no even ground. And I CANNOT do the seeing for him! He CANNOT trust me with his footing. It is part of why I don't worry about dressage. Dressage is oriented to arena work, but my horse is expected to handle both of us going thru the desert.








​ 
I want to emphasize again that doesn't mean you shouldn't be happy doing what you are doing. It looks like you and your horse are having fun and working as a team. That is great!

A few years ago, a lady posted a question on HF. She didn't like dressage lessons. Her horse seemed to dislike them. Both of them enjoyed going out on trails by themselves. Her question: Would it be OK to stop taking dressage lessons and just go ride trails? I was the only person who said sure. The rest told her she would become a slob rider, jerking her horse around and throwing him off balance - unless she continued weekly dressage lessons!

THAT is the sort of thing that chaps my butt! When in this area, the sheepherders who work on my friend's ranch have to ride to the top of this hill to get cell phone reception. So they ride up and down it regularly.








​ 
Shortly after this picture was taken, the new rider went off the edge to collect some sheep about 30 feet down, then rode back up:








​ 
You couldn't pay ME to do that! Yet in 30 years, they have never had a rider stay overnight in a hospital. They have only had to take a rider to the hospital once in 30 years. The horses get the job done. They train their horses as foals to handle the terrain, and the riders quickly realize they can trust their horses.

That is my goal with Bandit. Trooper came from the ranch. Cowboy was born wild and already has outstanding balance in rough terrain. And I don't abuse my horse's mouth. My daughter rarely gets the slack out of the reins since Trooper seems to read her mind. They have ridden together for 10 years now.

I have no objection to anyone training in dressage as long as they do so in a way that keeps their horse content. I just strongly object to being told it is necessary to having a balanced, contented horse! I've watched my horse move. I've never seen ANY ridden horse move that well.


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## SueC

bsms said:


> I'm often accused of hating dressage. I don't. I hate forced dressage and I hate the idea that everyone needs to do it to have a healthy, happy horse. I hate the idea that the horse needs a human to tell it how to balance. And I'm enough of a western rider to dislike the look, at least, of constant tension on the reins.
> 
> But done with the right horse, in the spirit of fun, then I think dressage training could be a joy for both horse and rider.



:iagree:


And love those examples of terrain-only horses. No, dressage is not completely necessary for every horse and rider. That would be like saying classical ballet is the necessary underpinning for all other human athletic or artistic pursuits. That they can't possibly learn balance and finesse without it. Tell that to a martial artist, or an ice skater, or a BMX rider, or a downhill skier or ski jumper, or loads of other sports. Because yes, they certainly can! 

Many roads lead to the mountaintop, Grasshoppahs! ;-) Choose your donkey. Dismount your donkey at the summit. :gallop:


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## bsms

SueC said:


> ...Many roads lead to the mountaintop, Grasshoppahs! ;-) Choose your donkey. Dismount your donkey at the summit. :gallop:


Very true. Heck, we aren't even all interested in the same mountain...:wink:

*Now, something that has nothing to do with dressage, bits, or balance!*​ 
My wife's chickens had been let out of their shelter for a while this afternoon. They like some exercise and a chance to hunt bugs. But around sundown, I looked out the window and Cowboy was racing around, clearly agitated. Looked out the other window, and Trooper & Bandit were upset. Bandit, assuming his role as herd protector, looked like he was thinking about fighting.

We went out and by the time we got to the corrals, two of the horses were calming down. Bandit stayed alert for another 5-7 minutes, then relaxed.

Our guess? Coyotes noticed the chickens were out and came for a meal. They weren't expecting 2300 lbs of horses to thunder around, attracting human (and canine) attention.

The chickens are back in their roost now. The sun is setting and the horses calmly munching hay. I'd say the coyotes are going hungry, but the ones in the local area always look well fed. More than one neighbor has 'donated' a cat or small dog. But with some help from the horses, they won't be eating chicken tonight!


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## SueC

Over here, the sun is getting nicely up now and spreading some warmth, and Brett and I just went for a walk around our forest and swamp tracks with the dog. And chatted and laughed. Brett was reminding me of the catty girls in the Albany equestrian scene, when we had Sunsmart there in 2009. It was usually just immature people who wanted to build themselves up at the expense of others. The decent riders weren't usually catty. But the catty girls were so proud of their ribbons, if they had them! And liked to look down their noses at others. ;-)

Your horse and you can do an excellent trail ride, but you won't get a ribbon for it. So.... what _possible_ value can this pursuit have? :rofl:

If Thor was handing out ribbons, what would we see? ;-)

Some of these "dressage is the only way and I have many ribbons" persons who spend most of their lives in an arena, wouldn't you just love to invite them on a proper trail ride? "BYO superglue!" ;-)

It would be so nice if people could just appreciate a range of different pursuits, without saying, "Ah, but my pursuit is the best/most important/most refined/most skilled." Whether that's horses, or anything else. Just to broaden out and lose the tunnel vision and the kneejerk recruitment of flying monkeys. 


https://littleredsurvivor.com/category/flying-monkeys/


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## gottatrot

I really like @SueC's discussion on science and criticism. You have a good way of describing and clarifying things. And getting people to open up and share thoughts. 
@egrogan, I like your post about metaphors and working with Fizz. To me it looks like your teaching her included a lot of letting her figure out how to use her own body. Your thoughts are not only valid, they are interesting and important. There are a lot of people on the forum I'd like to take a lesson from, and you're one of them. 

Even on a controversial thread, people seemed to agree that a reason to get a riding lesson would be to have someone else's perspective of your riding. Imagine all the different people we've all had lessons from, and in all different parts of the world. Chances are very high that you have some little nugget of information that could help my riding immensely. Or even a question about why I do something that I can't answer. Which would lead to introspection and study. 

I like metaphors and do use them a lot. I guess if we use them for important things, we should think about what they actually mean and if that is matching our use of them. 

An example is "containing the energy." I can understand the metaphor. But what is the goal? Is it to hold the powerful energy of a horse in our hand? Not possible. Plus, as @bsms points out, we are moving at the same speed as the horse so the only way to increase pressure on the mouth is by pulling back.

Pulling back is a cue. So what are we trying to teach the horse? Do we want him to ignore the pull, to slow down, or to balance himself differently? How we use a reward for the pulling will teach him different things. 

How about running out the front end? It seems like that feeling is relating to the balance of the horse, and so what is our goal? What we really are trying to do is usually either trying to slow the horse down into a slower version of the gait, or else to get him to find a nice, relaxed tempo in the gait, or else to get in rhythm with the balance point of the horse. Which might require him finding a better balance under the rider. 

A horse on contact or a loose rein can give us any of these feelings. I'm more used to teaching with a closer contact, but you can view western trainers teaching the same ideas about balance and tempo on a loose rein and intermittent contact from a longer rein.


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## phantomhorse13

Happy Father's Day!


I hope you are out sharing some saddle time with your family.


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## bsms

gottatrot said:


> ...Do we want him to ignore the pull, to slow down, or to balance himself differently? How we use a reward for the pulling will teach him different things.
> 
> ...or else to get him to find a nice, relaxed tempo in the gait, or else to get in rhythm with the balance point of the horse. Which might require him finding a better balance under the rider...


I'm convinced very few cues have any instinctive meaning to a horse. It is how we reward them that gives a cue meaning.

I've also suggested a major difference between the Forward Seat and the Dressage Seat is that the forward rider aligns his balance to the horse. He works harder to make it easier for the horse. Dressage teaches the horse to shift his balance under the rider. The horse works harder so the rider can relax.

The Forward Seat wasn't taught as such, but was largely instinctively used for hunting. This painting is from 1829:








​
Oddly, they used the forward seat on the flat, then shifted backwards for the jump. Now many use a dressage seat on the flat, and go forward for their "jump seat". I learned the Forward "System" from Littauer and Chamberlin, who believed it was to be used 99% of the time.

As Littauer points out in his historical review of riding ("The Development of Modern Riding"), there was a long standing conflict in approaches between indoor riding and outdoor riding. The focus of the 'dressage masters' was getting royalty ready to ride in parties. The hunt field was largely ignored. BTW - Littauer's book is an excellent read. Currently $6 with shipping from Amazon...

Hard to imagine teaching riding this way:


















​
That is why when we talk about a horse having "better balance", we need to include "better for what?". For riding in enclosed spaces, covered or not, the 'classical' approach is probably best. It matches the rider's goal better than slack reins or forward seats. 

In the cavalry, where you might have 20 horses and riders practicing in an arena, the "free the horse to be himself" approach that I like would be a disaster! But as Littauer noticed when he left the riding halls and rode to war in World War One, the Russian Cavalry had to ditch most of what it had learned, and learn to ride "like Cossacks" to survive!

I've disagreed with Littauer in a lengthy post, but I largely agree with his ideas on riding. His philosophy on riding - his principles on how we should approach riding - included the idea that horses aren't entirely thrilled about being ridden, and we need to make it as easy for them as possible. Which is why my approach to western riding owes more to Caprilli than to Larry Trocha...or John Wayne! It matches where and why I ride.


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## bsms

phantomhorse13 said:


> Happy Father's Day! I hope you are out sharing some saddle time with your family.


Thank you. We've had an inch of rain in the last 36 hours. About 7% of our annual total. Clear skies again, so I might ride after church. My desert horses think a half-inch of mud is totally unsuitable for riding. As are skies with more than 50% cloud cover!

But after 3 1/2 months without any rain...it was WONDERFUL. A slow drizzle for hour after hour instead of the thunderstorms dropping an inch in 30 minutes and all of it washing away!


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## SueC

I'm very interested in this horse. I looked a the large version of the photo and isn't he gorgeous! And looks like he could do many miles without raising a sweat. Who is he, what sort of breed(s), and what work does he do? This sort of working horse is fabulous; give me that instead of a halter class horse any day.


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## bsms

He is 3/4 Arabian, 1/4 Appaloosa. Or 50:50. Trooper has the same sire - a14.0 hand, 800 lb stallion who was a 50:50 mix. The sire started off hating riders. He'd bite or kick any chance he got. But he also loved covering ground. I'm told the first 10 miles were the hardest, but he'd listen OK after 20 miles. My friend used him for times when he needed to cover 50 miles a day, day after day.

What really broke through to the stallion was when they took him out to work cattle who had been on the range for a couple years or more. Those cattle were really rough to work. The stallion loved it. My friend said he'd hang on for dear life because he knew if he came off, both the stallion and the steer would gladly trample him! But the stallion learned to work the cattle, using teeth and hooves with enthusiasm. Once the stallion decided working WITH a human meant he could go 50+ miles a day, or work the meanest cattle...well, THEN he decided humans were OK.

When he came down with cancer, they bred him to every mare they could get hold of. I guess his final year of life was filled with sex! Not that bad a way to go, I guess! They mostly bred him to Arabian mares. Their work requires such long distances that QH don't tend to do well.

These three all came from him. Trooper (next picture) is the only one who didn't turn out grey. Trooper was an unplanned mating. The stallion broke down one fence and mated a purebred Arabian mare through another fence. Trooper, however, inherited his dam's personality - laid back, willing, mostly calm...which isn't the stereotype of an Arabian mare, but I guess the stereotype isn't 100% true:








​ 







​ 
I love this picture. It is something you rarely see anymore. I think the sons may use trucks to move the sheep when they run the ranch. Last year, they took over 3,000 sheep through the town:








​
And my wife, a few years back, after the sheep had been moved up the mountain - about 50 miles in two days, mostly on pavement:








​
The summer range for the sheep includes the slopes and tops of the mountains in this picture. 








​
The herders follow the sheep, on horseback, up & down and all around those slopes. Untrained riders, but it doesn't take many weeks before they have more experience than most of us will ever have on rough terrain!

It is a dying way of life. I'm very glad I've had the chance to see it and even take part on a couple of the drives. It also colors my thoughts on things like "_What is good balance in a horse?_"

One last picture. They no longer are allowed to run sheep in this area. They were banned about 20 years ago. But for years, they trailed the sheep through this canyon:










I know I've posted these pictures before, but I think they are amazing horses and amazing country. It has been a hard life for them but I can understand why they love it.​


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## bsms

Mia meeting Bandit's sire. The sire is an unregistered Arabian. Looks small compared to Mia. Bandit comes by his bendy neck naturally. Kind of wish he had his sire's color. And head. Bandit needs a pretty big headstall.










And just because I can...my daughter, granddaughter and Trooper in one picture:










I think I've been blessed with 3 pretty darn good horses. I sometimes knock Bandit but that isn't fair of me. He has to be an incredibly tough horse to have survived how he was used for racing. And he's even starting to be affectionate at times. Big noggin, but at least he has something in it!​


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## Chevaux

I had seen the photo before, bsms, on more than one occasion of your wife on the gray out with the sheep smiling at the camera -- it remains one of my favourite pics on this forum.


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## bsms

Thanks, @Chevaux. My wife goes 3-4 months without riding, then rides 6 times in a week, then goes months without riding again. She normally won't think of getting on a horse without a helmet but these horses...they are NOT dead-heads, but they ARE sensible. She just felt safe on them.

I've been told that is wrong, and I understand any horse can have its moments. But some horses...well, Cowboy is an example. He's kind of sassy, has some attitude, but there is something about him that gives people confidence. It wouldn't be impossible to get hurt riding him. But those ranch horses, 50-75% Arabian, just project safety even while being energetic. I don't know how to describe it, but she REALLY likes riding there.


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## SueC

bsms said:


> ...as Baucher put it, "*Let him think that he is our master, then he is our slave.*"


I have a variation on this theme that you may find amusing - and particularly your wife may find amusing!  I have a very good friend originally from South Africa, who told me that in their very conservative religion, the man was always considered the head of the household. "But," she said to me, "We women are the neck, and we can turn that head whichever way we want to!"


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## SueC

On Posts 1467/1468, such wonderful photographs and fascinating reading. It seems you are very lucky to live in an area where true working horses still exist in reasonable quantities. My Arabian mare was from Crabbet/Polish lines, with racing ancestors. This was her in the paddock at 27, when she was still in light work:




























She had a conformation flaw in her relatively long back, from the Autumn Sunshine maternal line. I can't copy the photo over, but here's a link to the page, which also has lots of other working horses from that quarter of her pedigree (select the "photos" option from the "reports" menu; if that doesn't work go directly to the database http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/ and put in the horse's name):

Autumn Sunshine Arabian

Photos of her sire Centurion's ancestors:

Centurion Arabian

Her dam Iraki Noire's:

Iraki Noire Arabian

This is a great online resource for looking up horse ancestry information. And the horses pictured in the above links were all working line horses, and feature heavily in the pedigrees of today's endurance Arabians, who, together with the Arabian-derived working horses you've shown, are the remaining carriers of what the Arabian horse once was, before the showring produced a lot of deformed mutants no longer useful for serious work. The horses in @*phantomhorse13* 's journal too all look like the ones in those old photographs, because they are real working horses.

My mare was just 14.2hh, I grew to 5'11", and she worked and worked with me for hours at a time, riding through the Australian bush and saying, "Can I please do some more proper running?" which by her definition was a fast, floating trot or a ground-covering canter - with the odd flat-out gallop up a sand slope. We also practicing dressage in the back paddock for fun and variety ;-). She was excellent at gymkhana games and endurance, and did well on her ridden show outings too - albeit our outings were comparatively limited due to distance and disinclination from my parents' side when I was young. One of my favourite ways of remembering this mare is from this photo, from Cosy Corner beach:










It's a shame I never had the money to breed a foal from this mare, but a working Arabian stud just up the road from us in Redmond had her full sister Lowanna for years, so her bloodlines are still around, and maybe one day I'll track down someone from her line and bring her here again. Right now though, my hands are full with Sunsmart, and I'm thinking of saddle educating Julian (and getting a house cow, and finally buying chickens, and finishing that attic, and planting another few hundred trees this winter etc etc etc...). Speaking of Sunsmart, I know you've seen this clip before, but I'll post it again because it's so funny:






The instinct seems to be in some horses to herd cattle, especially stallions, who have strong herding instincts. Sunsmart was a gelding by the time this clip was taken, but a few years before that, he too might well have used his teeth to effect if given the opportunity.

I think it's interesting to think about true working horses. The Arabian and the French Trotter/Standardbred (Sunsmart is a mix) are very different breeds, but look how alike these two individuals are in their movements at about 1:10 into the clip - my mare was 31 and getting ancient and out of shape, but still moved like a working horse. She was a huge trotter as well, like Sunsmart is.






The true working horse to me is an all-purpose horse who can cover miles and miles of terrain, run fast, and do all sorts of different things. The racing Standardbreds these days are changing; Albatross (Sunsmart's grandfather) was an old-style Standardbred, very like a Morgan (@*egrogan* 's horses, such as Fizz pictured here the other day), to whom they were closely related at the beginning of their establishment. He had huge length of rein:










These days, STBs are tending towards shorter and shorter necks, and finer builds, and an example I rode a while back felt like I had no horse in front of me, sort of like sitting on the edge of a cliff. I really prefer the old type; and the French trotter was an old type breed as well, bred from French carriage and all-purpose horses, as well as TBs.

My working line Arabian mare and my French trotter/old style STB cross Sunsmart were very similar to ride, in terms of how their gaits felt, and how the horse as a whole felt. Modern Arabians and modern STBs are very dissimilar, also from their ancestors...

Thanks again for talking about and showing us your own lovely working horses, and those in your general area. It's nice when one realises that pockets of them still exist!


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## SueC

Forgot to add these, from the beach outing day in 2008:


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## Fimargue

I have thought about creating a new dressage breed with a French trotter in to give THE trot. And when I saw your video, Sue, the thought is very valid. The mare that I use to ride at my previous workplace, had this powerful trot that I loved to watch. No toe flicking there (look at almost any high level dressage horse... The prime example being Totilas and Weihegold of Werth), but a powerful trot that pushed from behind. It's just that the trot is not all, and not the first thing for a dressage horse to look at so would need to add a breed with a facility for canter and collection. 

When I was still looking at Arabs, I got very fed up of seeing that there weren't many that look like my mare (or they just don't want to sell them which is fair enough), even in youngsters still. And it makes me angry when people advertise the "things" that we see nowadays as true Arabian horses. We have lots of endurance horses here, but most of them are horrible as well. All rectangular, pointy and long legs. And they all are similarly bred. The old lines are dying.

Talila will be most likely my last Arabian, unless I breed her to an Arab stallion, which was my original goal, but now it doesn't serve as much a purpose as they don't cut for the level of dressage I want to do.

Unless I can find something like him:





He is a pure Polish by Wojslaw, and apparently costed an arm and a leg when young. He is now 24 I think. The fat shiny dark brown horse who comes to check him at 0:57 (notice how the others disappear, that one is a bully) IS bred for dressage. And has no go at all.


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## Fimargue

gottatrot said:


> An example is "containing the energy." I can understand the metaphor. But what is the goal? *Is it to hold the powerful energy of a horse in our hand*? Not possible. Plus, as @bsms points out, we are moving at the same speed as the horse so the only way to increase pressure on the mouth is by pulling back.
> 
> Pulling back is a cue. So what are we trying to teach the horse? Do we want him to ignore the pull, to slow down, or to balance himself differently? How we use a reward for the pulling will teach him different things.
> 
> How about running out the front end? It seems like that feeling is relating to the balance of the horse, and so what is our goal? What we really are trying to do is usually either trying to slow the horse down into a slower version of the gait, or else to get him to find a nice, relaxed tempo in the gait, or else to get in rhythm with the balance point of the horse. Which might require him finding a better balance under the rider.
> 
> A horse on contact or a loose rein can give us any of these feelings. I'm more used to teaching with a closer contact, but you can view western trainers teaching the same ideas about balance and tempo on a loose rein and intermittent contact from a longer rein.


Not in the hand, just hold it until ready to release by saying with you body "wait, wait, not yet", and not with pulling, never with pulling - a trained horse does not need that and un untrained horse should not be doing this kind of work.

That's the thing with dressage, you are trying to achieve many many things at the same time that before were just, slow down and go. That's where horse's fitness, sensitivity to the aids and strength of the hindquarters becomes critical.

Dressage is training and the more training the horse gets, the more complicated it becomes. You have to find all these nuances between the things you ask. 
@SueC, you asked what I think of @Spanish Rider's video. I think I would take that horse any day, he has not an ounce of tension in his body, he is ridden correctly by Spanish Rider who herself is a good rider. I love watching her schooling videos. There is this feeling factor and that she she is not just going around at trot and canter, which I find boring as hell.


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## bsms

Fimargue said:


> Not in the hand, just hold it until ready to release by saying with you body "wait, wait, not yet", and not with pulling, never with pulling - a trained horse does not need that and un untrained horse should not be doing this kind of work...
> 
> ...There is this feeling factor and that she she is not just going around at trot and canter, which I find boring as hell.


The first part I partially understand and partially don't. I obviously don't train Bandit in dressage. When he collects, briefly, it is because he wants to. When he is nervous about something or just full of himself, he'll collect for a short time. And yes, there is a feeling on energy bundled up underneath you.

In my case, that isn't an entirely good feeling. When Mia got like that, she was about to explode. I didn't know how to redirect her or even that I might need to back off and take her someplace else to calm her...so I rode out a lot of explosions. Anyone who has ridden a horse spinning madly on a paved road, seeing a car coming at them at 50-60 mph and not slowing down, can understand how the memory could be a bad one! If you associate collection with a horse losing their mind, then feeling a horse collect isn't much fun. I view it as a form of PTSD.

Still, Bandit does it sometimes with a lot more self-control, so I can see the fun side of it.

Where I reject it is when someone takes it to an extreme and says collection is NEEDED for the horse to use its body powerfully, or NEEDS it to turn quickly! Mia could jump an invisible fence, do so sideways even, or do a 180 degree turn and explode into the opposite direction from a relaxed, almost sleepy & strung out walk. She could do so in a way that would have torn me out of the saddle if my saddle hadn't been the fake Australian! I'd get bruises on my thighs from the force of the poleys (mickey mouse ears on the front) slamming into my thighs, twisting me around with Mia in spite of myself.

There is no energy "stored" beneath the rider. It is continuously being created by the horse. It can create upward motion. It can create heat. But it cannot be stored. But if you can ASK the horse to create it, without the horse starting to lose his mind, then yes. I can see how it would be enjoyable. At least for people who don't have bad memories hiding in their brains!

So I partially get it. As a picture in words. But I also appreciate the reality - the horse working hard, ready to respond, pleasing his/her rider - but continuously creating the energy. And the trail rider in me, who rides on spooky horses, needs to accept the other part of the reality, that my horses can create that vast energy faster than I can react to it! The HORSE almost always has it available - to him! Maybe not to ME, though, which is where dressage training might be useful.

Except for me it includes some unpleasant feeling, too!

Yesterday, when Bandit was unhappy about our neighbors working in their front yard, and the giant black snakes on the pavement (the county came and sealed the cracks, leaving black tar lines ALL over the road) - while he was 'concerned', his energy went up. So we did some trotting and cantering while his head was sideways, did some more vertical striding - but mostly with slack reins. 

We did a game we often do. He'd choose the speed and I'd choose the direction, or he would choose the direction and I'd choose the speed. Letting the horse choose part of the equation is good practice for one's own balance and seat. If you aren't sure when your horse is going to turn 90 degrees, it is like practicing for a low-level spook. If you are going along and he gets to suddenly stop, or suddenly accelerate, it is good practice for those things. And with Mia & Bandit, those things WILL happen. Might as well practice it!

I like the comment about boredom. If you ask Bandit to do the same thing 3 times in a row, he acts like Mia did: "_Are you lost? Do you need a map!? I'm glad to do it once. I don't object too much to doing it twice. But THREE TIMES IN A ROW?_"



> ...Horses don't like to be ennuye, and will rather stick at home than go out to be bored; they like amusement, variety, and society : give them their share of these, but never in a pedantic way, and avoid getting into a groove of any kind...


Written 150 years ago, but it matches how my horses act today! And in my limited experience, when Arabians get bored, they find ways to spice things up! They "don't like to be ennuye"...


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## Fimargue

bsms said:


> In my case, that isn't an entirely good feeling. When Mia got like that, she was about to explode.


Yes! See, that's why when my friend's GP trained Trotter lifted his back, all ready to do stuff, the person who got on him thought he was going to spook.

It's a wonderful feeling when it's controlled. 

Of course it's the horse creating the energy, but we are the one giving the cues  Collection is something that you build up to little by little. 

I already said earlier here that I don't ride the horses same way out that I ride in the arena. I do know plenty of folks though who ride their horses in full contact even then... I got to a little debate once when I had to tell one of the girls I took for hack, to let go, I was leading one handed myself on the buckle (on an Arabian who never spooked) and having re-trained and ridden the horse she was on I knew he was not going anywhere and said so to her. I can do my dressage training in the trails, but it's not something constant and only in the flat parts. The horse will need to have a different range of motion when we are going through terrain and past objects and none of the dressage focus is there.


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## SueC

That's a great photograph, the framing, the angle, and it really brings out the colours. And I think that's a great colour, very unique too. Over here we don't see Appy/Arabian crosses. Appaloosa colours are spectacular. They just give me a pain in the toenail. Let me explain. ;-) When I brought Sunsmart down to Albany in 2009, at the start of his saddle education, he'd never seen an Appaloosa before, and there was one in the paddock down the road. I took my horse for a walk on the halter around the neighbourhood to get him settled in, and he was going, "Oh, grass! So much of it! Wow!" and kind of distracted, when he saw the Appy out of the corner of his eye and concluded instantaneously that it was a space alien. Oooh aaah etc. We kept walking down the road, and there was asphalt as this was town, and he had shoes on. The Appy was friendly and came running up, and Sunsmart leapt sideways in terror, and the edge of his hoof caught my right foot as I was bracing myself instinctively for more mechanical advantage. Ouch! No steel toe caps on that walk! It's not often a horse steps on my foot by accident, but when it does...

There's a chestnut in Trooper's ancestry somewhere, isn't there? What do you know about the colours of his dam and his grandparents both sides?

I was thinking about the "hollow" comment on that other photo of him. The only thing that appears to me to be hollow is the craniums of people who make comments like that...












This is such a super photo. Three horses, three people, three dogs, and all that countryside, and just the way everyone is looking relaxed and happy, two legs or four!

I was thinking about bicycle riding. As far as I know, noone takes many lessons in that, yet we all end up with pretty similar techniques (one glaring exception, rpms on pedals; some people are such slow pushers that they make life very hard for themselves - spinning it is far more efficient). A lot of riding is the physical part of finding balance and going with the movements instead of being a passive sack of potatoes. I think there are clearly many different contexts in which that can be learnt, and I'll scan and post sometime soon an article on an alternative riding course from a 1982 alternative German horse diary, which aimed to minimise the discomfort for the horses with beginners by training up the beginners in certain ways before they got on a horse, and then doing specific exercises with them when they did get on a horse - with really excellent results. And the rest of riding is basically about effective communication both ways.

I think an advantage the rural working folk have over urban people taking their first horse lessons is their physical shape - having very well conditioned bodies, good reflexes, being used to all sorts of physical situations already and adjusting their bodies in it. Most of the West has a problem with really out-of-shape, underexercised people, and it's much harder for them to learn to ride, than people who already look like their sheepdogs!












I hope this one is on your wall, what a great shot - like a real-life painting, and look at that lovely joyous smile!

I'm digging through an old photo album for a sheep shot - you know, an actual one when photos used to be on paper - and want to scan and post it. It's sheep going along a town road in Tasmania, past a speed limit sign...


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## bsms

SueC said:


> ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is such a super photo. Three horses, three people, three dogs, and all that countryside, and just the way everyone is looking relaxed and happy, two legs or four!...


They had moved roughly 3,500 sheep close to 60 miles over the previous 2 days. The sheep were out ahead of them, starting to graze and drink at the water hole where they would bed down for the night. The 3 sheep camps (small trailers) were already set up, and they were riding the final mile for the day. They were going to spend a day there, resting the sheep, then move them about 10 miles for a couple more days of rest.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure horses, dogs and riders were all feeling pretty good! And they had made it the entire distance, going thru a town and crossing a state highway, without losing a single animal! They ALL had good reason to be proud of themselves!


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## bsms

Want to build on a comment I made on gottatrot's journal:



> "Just finished a short ride in the arena. Goal? Get my legs & hips stretched out after yesterday's jogging. Bandit has no objections to being ridden 20-30 minutes just to get my tight muscles to relax. Particularly since he gets to nibble at dry grass a lot. This probably says something about our riding, though:
> 
> There was some tall, DRY grass on the edge of the arena. We stopped. Nom, nom, nom! He got a huge mouthful. I figured we'd stroll for a minute while he chewed this big wad of grass sticking out both sides of his face. But...Bandit offered a medium trot. He chose the speed, so I got to choose the direction. So for the next minute or two, he trotted around the arena, me standing in the stirrups, and while he trotted, he CHEWED. Nothing like having a horse chew a big wad, with a Billy Allen bit in his mouth, trotting efficiently while his rider stood in the stirrups and asked for direction changes! Bandit seemed utterly happy, though, zipping around with grass hanging out both sides of his face! So...happy horse, happy rider!"


I think what Larry Trocha says is going to work for me. I need to make some adjustments in how I react to sudden slowing, but I can practice it while Bandit does freestyle in the arena. That means he'll sometimes slow, or turn, or switch speeds without asking my approval. In turn, I get to practice my balance and seat. The shorter stirrups help me get further off his back and he seems more enthusiastic in his trotting that way. I get whacked by the cantle once in a while, but never hard and not too often if I fold my body just right. We did some fairly tight turns with me standing in the stirrups and it was fine.

When he gets nervous - didn't happen today, but did a couple of times yesterday on the trail - I can slouch in the seat. My security actually remain mostly in my lower leg, but slouching prevents me from bracing. You cannot brace in the stirrups and slouch in the saddle at the same time! Seems to work fine at a walk, and lets me get up and off his back at a trot. Tried it at a canter today...if Bandit cared, I couldn't tell it. Not at a canter. But he seems more eager to trot if I get higher off his back.

I really wish someone had been taking pictures today. He had such a massive wad of dried grass, and was chewing it contentedly WHILE trotting a medium trot. I tried Mia's old Billy Allen bit today instead of the solid shank. I didn't detect any difference in how he responded. It is quite unorthodox, though. Western saddle. Billy Allen long shank bit. One hand. Plenty of slack in the reins. But standing up in the stirrups, while he trotted cheerfully, grass sticking out both sides of his face. He kept offering trots. I didn't ask for much today. He just seemed to feel like it. I'd give him some slack and a moment later, he was trotting. 

I'm going to try more cantering in a half-seat. I want to see if I can get Bandit to forget about exploding into a canter. He slides nicely into one once in a while, but his default is to gather himself and hurdle himself into a canter. I doubt he'll ever forget it entirely, but I'd like to seem him relax into a canter more often.


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## SueC

An update on current technical and photo problems, and how to fix them, here:

https://www.horseforum.com/horse-fo...ures-not-showing-791315/page2/#post1970557743


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## SueC

bsms said:


> Quote:
> _...Horses don't like to be ennuye, and will rather stick at home than go out to be bored; they like amusement, variety, and society : give them their share of these, but never in a pedantic way, and avoid getting into a groove of any kind..._
> 
> 
> Written 150 years ago, but it matches how my horses act today! And in my limited experience, when Arabians get bored, they find ways to spice things up! They "don't like to be ennuye"...
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULDGLrvDtJw


That's such a fun song! 

I wonder why the age of a book is often used by some people to imply that it is "outdated" - as if good thinking is some kind of fashion, like shoulder pads or winklepickers. While in some areas of endeavour books can get outdated by new evidence, philosophy is philosophy, whether the Greeks did it 3000 years ago or Jesus 2000 years ago with his parables and his Sermon on the Mount etc, or whether I'm reading Alain de Botton's latest book. A good thought is like good wine, and it's always good to try to see things from other perspectives.
_
“The German poet Goethe once said that "he who cannot draw on three thousand years is living from hand to mouth." I don't want you to end up in such a sad state. I will do what I can to acquaint you with your historical roots. It is the only way to become a human being. It is the only way to become more than a naked ape. It is the only way to avoid floating in a vacuum.”

― Jostein Gaarder, Sophie's World 
_


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## weeedlady

@SueC I know what shoulder pads are, of course, but what on earth is in winklepicker?


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## SueC

weedlady said:


> @*SueC* I know what shoulder pads are, of course, but what on earth is in winklepicker?



A shoe roughly like this:











Later, like this:











More here, including modern versions produced by subsequent fashion cycles:


https://www.google.com/search?q=win...JoObbAhUBbbwKHeW_CKwQiR4I4AE&biw=1680&bih=854


The mind boggles!  Which pair will you be purchasing? ;-)


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## bsms

SueC said:


> That's such a fun song!
> 
> I wonder why the age of a book is often used by some people to imply that it is "outdated" - as if good thinking is some kind of fashion...A good thought is like good wine, and it's always good to try to see things from other perspectives...





> I have found as a tutor in English Literature that if the average student wants to find out something about Platonism, the very last thing he thinks of doing is to take a translation of Plato off the library shelf and read the Symposium. *He would rather read some dreary modern book ten times as long, all about "isms" and influences and only once in twelve pages telling him what Plato actually said*. The error is rather an amiable one, for it springs from humility. The student is half afraid to meet one of the great philosophers face to face. He feels himself inadequate and thinks he will not understand him. But if he only knew, the great man, just because of his greatness, is much more intelligible than his modern commentator. *The simplest student will be able to understand, if not all, yet a very great deal of what Plato said; but hardly anyone can understand some modern books on Platonism*....
> 
> ...Every age has its own outlook. It is specially good at seeing certain truths and specially liable to make certain mistakes. *We all, therefore, need the books that will correct the characteristic mistakes of our own period*. And that means the old books. All contemporary writers share to some extent the contemporary outlook—even those, like myself, who seem most opposed to it. Nothing strikes me more when I read the controversies of past ages than the fact that both sides were usually assuming without question a good deal which we should now absolutely deny. They thought that they were as completely opposed as two sides could be, but in fact they were all the time secretly united—united with each other and against earlier and later ages—by a great mass of common assumptions. We may be sure that the characteristic blindness of the twentieth century—the blindness about which posterity will ask, "But how could they have thought that?"—lies where we have never suspected it, and concerns something about which there is untroubled agreement between Hitler and President Roosevelt or between Mr. H. G. Wells and Karl Barth. None of us can fully escape this blindness, but we shall certainly increase it, and weaken our guard against it, if we read only modern books...
> 
> ...Not, of course, that there is any magic about the past. *People were no cleverer then than they are now; they made as many mistakes as we. But not the same mistakes.* They will not flatter us in the errors we are already committing; and their own errors, being now open and palpable, will not endanger us. Two heads are better than one, not because either is infallible, but because they are unlikely to go wrong in the same direction. *To be sure, the books of the future would be just as good a corrective as the books of the past, but unfortunately we cannot get at them.*
> 
> --- C.S. Lewis, Introduction to "Athanasius On the Incarnation"


I confess. I've never read "Athanasius On the Incarnation". I encountered the introduction on a compilation of CS Lewis's writings in "God in the Dock". But CS Lewis did get me to read medieval poetry. Like some foods, I tried some, more than once...and haven't tried again. 

But he is right about how we share various blindnesses common to our age. In 1800, many men made excuses for slavery. We can condemn them now, but it was the sea they swam in. It is easy for us, safe on the shore, to wonder how anyone could have swum in THAT sea. Two hundred years from now, our descendants will look at us and wonder about blindnesses we have but do not notice.

What does this have to do with riding horses? First, there are writers from the past who can open our eyes to the blindness of our age. As open areas become less common, and very few people are immersed in horses in the way people were 150 years ago, and horses become more recreational and more often found in arenas than crossing miles of open country, our IDEAS about riding become shaped by both our modern environment and our lack of experience.

Consider Harry Chamberlin. He was sent to Samur for a year. The Italian Cavalry school for a year. Spent less time in Germany. Then returned to the US, and started training riders at Ft Riley. The school there was a year, IIRC, and each student rode 100 different horses. He dealt with thousands of students, new and experienced. Later, he was responsible for over 500 horses and riders and their training at Ft Bliss. WHERE DO YOU FIND AN INSTRUCTOR OF THAT EXPERIENCE? He had bind spots, but as Lewis points out, "_[He] will not flatter us in the errors we are already committing; and [his] own errors, being now open and palpable, will not endanger us_."

The second point is this. Horses are like reading Plato. Riding instructors are like reading about Plato. You can learn from both, of course. But it is easier to learn about Plato if you have first read Plato, and those who read Plato will believe less nonsense written about him by some academic!

On another forum, someone attacked the idea of new riders owning a horse, saying new riders ruin horses. Some do, of course. So do some experts. But a new rider riding the same horse daily is like a student reading Plato. "_The student is half afraid to meet one of the great philosophers face to face. He feels himself inadequate and thinks he will not understand him. But if he only knew, the great man, just because of his greatness, is much more intelligible than his modern commentator._" I find that true of horses as well. A horse, taken on his/her own, is more level-headed, practical, and easier to learn from than those who write about him! A person who likes horses and tries to learn from them won't get everything right, but they'll be less likely to get really big things wrong!

I've recently written that horses are like onions, and each layer you peel reveals more. But...each layer is still essentially an onion. Onions don't lie. And onions don't pretend to be what they are not. Horses have a type of complexity, but they remain horses and honest creatures. No one learns rollkur from a horse! That requires a human teacher!

So yes, I like to read and I like to read old books on riding, too! But I like to meet my horse first, and then the check what I read against Plato himself, so to speak! If in doubt, read the great man, not about the great man. If in doubt, read the horse, not humans telling you about the horse. " _But if he only knew, the great man, just because of his greatness, is much more intelligible than his modern commentator._ "


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> ...The second point is this. Horses are like reading Plato. Riding instructors are like reading about Plato. You can learn from both, of course. But it is easier to learn about Plato if you have first read Plato, and those who read Plato will believe less nonsense written about him by some academic!...
> 
> ...Horses have a type of complexity, but they remain horses and honest creatures. No one learns rollkur from a horse! That requires a human teacher!...
> 
> ...So yes, I like to read and I like to read old books on riding, too! But I like to meet my horse first, and then the check what I read against Plato himself, so to speak! If in doubt, read the great man, not about the great man. If in doubt, read the horse, not humans telling you about the horse...


Yes! Great stuff!
That is a deep thought, how the horse is the original author. Who knows his own story better than the horse?

I know it's popular to modernize films so it appears that people of all races, men and women were equally respected and integrated in all time periods. That is something I disagree with. History as it was, in all its ugliness is what can teach us the most. Pretending that things were different will mean we can never learn from mistakes that were made. 

It's the same with our horses. I've met many who pretend that they've always trained and ridden their horses flawlessly, but I think it's more important to be critical and see what we've done wrong. Somehow because we have good intentions toward our horses, that means everything we do is right? That seems to be a philosophy many people have. 

I've with good intentions tied Amore's head down into Rollkur and driven her around with side reins and a lunge whip to develop her muscles "properly," teach her "collection," and get her "round." 
But that doesn't mean I can't hear anything bad said about Rollkur, or roundness, just because I've done it myself with good intentions. Good people can be wrong. We can all make mistakes. But being open minded to review critically all kinds of information, even information that goes against the grain and makes you realize you've invested tons of time and effort into the wrong things, can help you.


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## bsms

"_History as it was, in all its ugliness is what can teach us the most._"

Movies that ignore the reality of race in the interest of inclusion drive me nuts. A 1900 wealthy Anglo-Protestant who married an Italian Catholic would cause an uproar. Better to learn from history than to ignore it!

Good ride with Bandit today. He gave me things to think about while behaving well. He is still tender on his feet, so we spent almost all of our time off trail. The ATV trail might be 20 feet to one side, going our way, but we zigzagged between the cactus. The ground there LOOKS rockier, but Bandit obviously preferred it.

Talking about the blindness of a given time...I was trying Larry Trocha's advice. For my part, I tried to imagine I had ball bearings installed above and below my pelvis, so my hips could go any way needed. I slouched. I think Littauer and Chamberlin, had they been there to watch, would have been appalled! "_Like a sack of potatoes! Heavy on the back! Horrible!_" But I've been told a good western rider doesn't wait for his horse's back to move his hips. He anticipates. IF the horse has to move you, the horse is wrestling with you. If you anticipate and move in tandem with the horse, you are dancing. So...slouched a little, letting my hips move, but trying to get the rhythm and move with Bandit rather than be pushed by Bandit's back.

Don't think it would work for a race, but Bandit seemed pretty relaxed when I got it right. When we went to a trot, I could stand just off his back, weight in my stirrups, and he trotted freely.

I know Chamberlin disliked western riders. I've never noticed Littauer writing anything about them. Both were rooted in European Cavalries: Russia, France and Italy. I'd bet a lot of money neither of them ever took any lessons in cutting horses...Neither have I, but for what we were doing, it worked fine. Bandit tripped on something once, almost to his knees, and I didn't go anywhere. He was back up before I could really think about it. At one point, we were riding in an area covered with ocotillo cactuses (sorry, but cacti sounds too posh). A single one, after the rain, looks like this:









​ 







I couldn't find a picture, but these were thick enough that they almost touched. I was giving Bandit lots of slack, just flicking the reins a little to let him know left/right, then letting him handle the spacing. It occurred to me that if he took off, I'd be shredded! Bandit would be able to go under intersecting branches that my face would hit. I remembered being told how slack reins gave me no control. So...

I trusted my horse anyways. If that makes me stupid, then I'm stupid. I felt safer working with him than trying to tell him what to do each step of the way. 

I could have kept him on the ATV trail. Harder on his feet, but a lot less spines near my face! But if we're a team, then I need to take care of his feet and he needs to take care of my face. And we both did our part. "_A lot of people say, 'Well, you can't show a horse down the road every day that way.' To me, that's the only way you can - or the only way I'd want to go with a horse._" - Ray Hunt . I wasn't showing him. We've done it before. I was trusting him. He might spook in a human neighborhood, but we were in the desert.

But I slouched, trying to dance with my horse thru the cactus - _sounds very foo-foo, but actually very practical!_ - and my horse seemed very content. I think horses know when we are trusting them. When we are counting on them. And if we've laid the groundwork (saddlework?) first, then they want us to succeed!

These are some old pictures. 
















​
We went straight down the wash where the second picture was taken. When we got to these spots, Bandit felt like trotting. So we did. I got out of the saddle, he trotted as easily as a horse can in sand and rock like that, then we slowed when things got very rocky. Practical Cowboy trotted part of the way with my DIL, then slowed early and just walked faster to catch up with us. He's 10 years older, fatter and saw no reason to waste calories!

I could get to liking riding like this. It is more traditional western and it works fine in the Southwestern desert in a western saddle on a Mustang/Arabian cross!

--------------------------------------------------------------

Onion time, and something I got thinking about. I've mentioned Bandit's feet. I've assumed his stumbling/tenderness is his FRONT feet. When he gets like that, if he drops his head, I've tried to correct him. Get his head higher, get his balance shifted to the rear, get some weight off his front feet. Sounds reasonable,no? Well, it has to me.

Today, I decided to give him MORE slack. He did get heavier on the front, with his nose very low, walking across the ouchy spots. But...when I did that, I think he stumbled LESS. I've been telling him he needs to watch his own feet. But maybe he couldn't SEE his rear feet since his body and mine were between his eyes and his rear feet. MAYBE dropping his head low, regardless of his balance, allows him to watch his rear feet as well as his front, and place them where it won't hurt!

I don't know. I tried it. It seemed to help. I won't try to decide yet. Maybe he was watching his front feet from up close. He seems to have a narrower area of good vision than most horses. He's very precise about how he holds his head while looking at something. Maybe his area of good vision is limited. Maybe he needs to get his head in just the right spot to avoid the rocks on the ATV trails. I'll try it some more. It will be embarrassing, though, if it turns out that my attempts to help his balance have been harming his ability to see where he needs to place his feet!

To be determined! *Is a puzzlement!*






There are times I almost think
Nobody sure of what he absolutely know
Everybody find confusion
In conclusion, he concluded long ago

*And it puzzle me to learn
That tho' a man may be in doubt of what he know
Very quickly he will fight,
He'll fight! To prove that what he does not know, is so!*​


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## bsms

Ordered Bandit a pair of standard Renegade hoof boots. 5.25 wide and 5.5 long. He's 5.2 wide and - just checked - 5.1/5.2 long. The boots will be a little long, but they say that is usually OK. They say they can exchange sizes within 30 days, which helps.

Also took photos of his face. I'm going to put him back in the Dr Cook's for a while, then I'll take more pictures and compare to see if the white hairs are increasing, or if he just has white hairs on his face. It isn't fair to blame the Dr Cook's for white hairs when I knew he came here with SOME...so I need to look for changes over time. Used a snaffle with him today, but there really isn't any bit that will go in his mouth that doesn't either bang his teeth or pull his lips back (the latter being preferable, of course).


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## SueC

bsms said:


> I've been told a good western rider doesn't wait for his horse's back to move his hips. He anticipates. IF the horse has to move you, the horse is wrestling with you. If you anticipate and move in tandem with the horse, you are dancing.


I totally agree, and I've never ridden Western! ;-)

(Even though Terence Hill makes it look so relaxing and appealing! ;-))

A good dancing partner doesn't step all over your shoes, no matter what type of dancing! ;-)




> Don't think it would work for a race, but Bandit seemed pretty relaxed when I got it right. When we went to a trot, I could stand just off his back, weight in my stirrups, and he trotted freely.


I think I'd personally have a good chance of an involuntary dismount if I tried to trot like that!  Maybe it's my back injury. And anyway, Sunsmart prefers me upright until he gets to a fast gallop - just a combination thing. So I'm very upright at a trot, whether sitting or posting. (But did lean slightly forward on the French mare when she dropped her hindquarters at the fast trot! Different balance.)

I'm translating something at the moment which I think you will find interesting in that regard. I'll post in on my journal soon. We've even got photos to scan in, which makes it extra useful. A picture's worth a thousand words and all that!

Beautiful cacti! (Sorry! Ingrained! At least I don't say _fora_, even though it's correct! At least not unless I'm talking anatomy!)




> I remembered being told how slack reins gave me no control. So...
> 
> I trusted my horse anyways. If that makes me stupid, then I'm stupid. I felt safer working with him than trying to tell him what to do each step of the way.


For what it's worth, when a horse is aware of the obstacles etc, I also give them their head to handle it themselves. And support with slight weight cues. I'll use reins (and/or voice) to communicate an alert to the horse for something I think it mightn't have seen, but usually it's the other way around, the horse is a far better observer of the environment than the human, on average.

Working all the steps together pre-planned sounds exhausting outside of the dressage arena, and even there horses get "breaks" if you do it the way I was taught anyway. That's what the trails are for - horse and rider recreation in an informal setting!  



> I think horses know when we are trusting them. When we are counting on them. And if we've laid the groundwork (saddlework?) first, then they want us to succeed!


Oooh, that's so congruent with the alternative riding school translation I'm currently working on!




> When he gets like that, if he drops his head, I've tried to correct him. Get his head higher, get his balance shifted to the rear, get some weight off his front feet. Sounds reasonable,no? Well, it has to me.
> 
> Today, I decided to give him MORE slack. He did get heavier on the front, with his nose very low, walking across the ouchy spots. But...when I did that, I think he stumbled LESS.


I think the horse knows what to do about his problem!  He's piloting his own body like that for a reason.

That prose poem/song! :rofl: It's good to have a "radio" to listen to when visiting someone's thread.

I still like that old ditty from the Prosh paper, a charity paper produced by the University of Western Australia once a year. It's so Zen, and it's stayed with me for three decades now!

_Happy is the moron
He doesn't give a ****
I wish I were a moron
Oh no! Perhaps I am!
_


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## SueC

bsms said:


> I confess. I've never read "Athanasius On the Incarnation". I encountered the introduction on a compilation of CS Lewis's writings in "God in the Dock". But CS Lewis did get me to read medieval poetry. Like some foods, I tried some, more than once...and haven't tried again.


That was an excellent and very pertinent quote from CS Lewis. Yes, exactly. And excellent thinking from you on how that applies, in this case, to horses and practices around them and riding. I wish more people thought broadly instead of getting deeper and deeper into tunnel vision.

The increasing specialisation of individuals in modern society is also leading to more tunnel vision, and a loss of the bigger picture, and a loss of really basic skills that everyone used to have. In German there is a really good word that has no direct translation into English - _Fachidiot_ - which means _specialty area idiot_, and refers to this problem. What's the point of being able to perform quadratic equations if you can't look after your most basic needs yourself, for instance? Which is how it's getting. They say we're only three meals and a haircut away from savagery, but those savages could at least cater for their basic needs.

CS Lewis, have you read _The Screwtape Letters_? Most amusing. And one book that made a real impression on me was _Out Of The Silent Planet_. The hypothetical situation in that book is about an Oxford philologist who gets kidnapped by two evil scientists who take him to Mars as a sort of human sacrifice for the natives there, whose planet's resources they are hoping to exploit.

But he gets away, and the three intelligent native species have no interest in human sacrifice. They can't even understand the human propensity for evil, and why someone would be unfair to someone else. It's just not how they operate. The protagonist learns their language and communicates and lives with them, and has a really hard time explaining the concept of war, or of competition for resources, or of selfishness and greed to them. Some of the conversations in that book are amazing. And then you think, why aren't humans like that? Why are they the very worst animal on the planet?

The protagonist tries to explain the motivations of his two kidnappers to the Oyarsa: _One cares for nothing but (gold), because in our world he can exchange it for many pleasures and powers. But the other means evil to you. I think he would destroy all your people to make room for our people; and he would want to do the same with other worlds again. He wants our race to last for always I think, and to leap from world to world...always going to a new sun when an old one dies...or something like that.
_
The Oyarsa's reply made me laugh: _Is he wounded in his brain?_

Part of the beauty of this too is how the protagonist translates things that can be made to sound so reasonable by these powergrubbers who kidnapped him into such basic language that none of the spin and the distortions they dress up their lunacies with survive... and it just gets to the core of it. And in doing so, it critiques things which our societies seem to have come to see as acceptable. It points a real mirror back at us. Great book!


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## bsms

CS Lewis was one of my favorite authors growing up. Out of the Silent Planet was one of my favorites - the idea that an Infinite God created lots of planets and lots of life, but that the life on other planets has little in common with our way of living! Recently read a book by one of his adopted sons about growing up with CS Lewis. I liked his description of what CS Lewis and his brother “Warnie” considered a perfectly normal evening - both reading quietly by the fire, smoking & drinking.



SueC said:


> ...In German there is a really good word that has no direct translation into English - _Fachidiot_ - which means _specialty area idiot_, and refers to this problem....


 Oh come on! We have that word in English! At least, in the USA. We just stick an "N" in the middle, between the h & the i...:thumbsup:...Although, we apply it a bit more broadly!


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## whisperbaby22

I think you have to look at this historically. Humans have a habit of destroying. We killed the neanderthals and there is a possibility that we killed off another race that was closer to China. We did interbreed with the neanderthals some, and I like think that the kinder and more artistic among us have some of their genes.


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## SueC

bsms said:


> Oh come on! We have that word in English! At least, in the USA. We just stick an "N" in the middle, between the h & the i...:thumbsup:...Although, we apply it a bit more broadly!


OMG, I had to really think about that one before the penny dropped! Hahaha! You know why? Because of how the "ch" is pronounced when correctly pronounced - it's one of the hardest sounds to teach people learning German. It's not a "k" sound! :rofl:


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## bsms

On vacation in Sedona AZ, so the horses are stuck in their corrals. I doubt it bothers them much. Two pictures from today's hiking:








​ 








​
Summer, so temps hit 100 by the afternoon. Only saw 4 people today on this trail, which was originally done as a bicycle trail. We finished around 10 AM when temps were breaking 90 F. Well worth some extra heat, to me, to have easy parking at trail heads and avoid the tons of people. This is also a rather little used trail, although a nice one. My left foot is still bothering me. Uneven terrain and rocks make it throb. Oh well.


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## whisperbaby22

Wow, really pretty.


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## egrogan

Agreed, beautiful scenery!

Seems like that would be the kind of place where you could take a mule ride?


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## bsms

A number of the trails are no horse trails, including that one. Haven't looked to see if anyone offers mule rides. The trails around Sedona get such heavy use that managing them must be a nightmare. I prefer southern Utah, but GETTING to Utah takes a lot more driving!


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## SueC

Have _y'all_ (it's a new form of address I'm trialling ;-)) got Tiger Balm in the US? We like the red type, it's really good (they make a white type which doesn't stain clothes but doesn't work as well, nor does it smell as good). Plant essential oils based sore-muscle, sore-joint, sore-foot, sore-all-sorts-of-things balm. We find it really effective, and racehorse trainers even use it on horses...

Tiger Balm

Sore foot when hiking = not good. I hope you take the same care selecting your footwear as you do with your horses' saddles! ;-)

Happy holidaying!


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## bsms

I'm GUESSING I have a form of plantar fasciitis.








​ 






​ 
"About 90% of plantar fasciitis cases will improve within six months with conservative treatment, and within a year regardless of treatment. Many treatments have been proposed for plantar fasciitis. Most have not been adequately investigated and there is little evidence to support recommendations for such treatments."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantar_fasciitis

In my case, it would be the part of the band going to the #4 toe, next to the little toe. I assume horses cannot get it, but it is making me sympathetic with "bad horses" who "act up". The longer I'm around horses, the less likely I am to "blame the horse first" (in James Fillies' phrase). I understand horses can get grumpy or have bad days or get lazy just like humans, but I'm disgusted how many resort to using a crop without any attempt to analyze the horse's issues! I'm truly convinced fear and pain cause a great many issues that humans brutally correct by whipping the horse. I'm sure Balaam's *** agreed...

Then the Lord opened the donkey’s mouth, and she asked Balaam, “What have I done to you that you have beaten me these three times?” 

Balaam answered the donkey, “You made me look like a fool. If I had a sword in my hand, I’d kill you now!”

But the donkey said, “Am I not the donkey you’ve ridden all your life until today? Have I ever treated you this way before?”

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=numbers+22&version=CSB​ 
I've finally been able to resume jogging after getting hurt on Mia in Jan 2009. Starting up jogging again at 60 has been TOUGH and I have no intention in giving it up now. If my self-diagnosis is correct, then jogging mostly on paved roads to prevent any local pressure against the injured site is probably my best bet. And I could easily be looking at 6+ more months of intermittent pain. Happily, no one says, “You made me look like a fool. If I had a sword in my hand, I’d kill you now!”


PS: Home again. Our 9+ year old Border Collie hadn't eaten since we left. Losing his adult humans was bad enough, but losing his 2 small kids at the same time? What was the point of living? Lots of tail-wagging and jumping when we got home, followed by a large meal!


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## bsms

Doesn't look like I'll get a ride in today. Got "watching grandkids duty", although I might be able to do a short ride in the arena in the heat of the day. However, I had 15 minutes to try Bandit's boots on him. I had to file one side of one foot a little. These needed to be pushed and tapped to get it all the way on his foot. He didn't act up any with the first boot. Once the second was on, I started walking him around. It took 50-100 feet for him to adapt, then his interest was in trying to find tiny dried clumps of grass to eat. I walked him over the rockiest areas on our property, up a short 30 degree incline and back down, several times. Asked him to trot beside me. He seemed content. 

When I went to remove them, he held his foot up and waited for me to pry it off. It is a fairly tight fit. His feet are at the maximum width for this size boot, but I think 1/4" bigger would be too loose for where we ride. So...for now, looks promising. Need to try to ride him in the arena next. Probably need to play around with the adjusting, too. But it went vastly better than the previous attempt. This was just a check to see if there were going to be major issues. Need to watch videos on adjusting them...but at least he wasn't doing the "OMG! What ARE these things?" act. And he seemed fine going up and down the steep spots.


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## gottatrot

I've tried to do a few different things with the extra length of strap on Renegades. I've cut them off and tried to seal the ends, but that made them difficult to un-velcro after a ride. Also they unraveled after awhile.

I've tried to glue the extra end under to itself with gorilla glue. That didn't leave enough left to velcro well. In the end, what I find most effective is just folding the extra part back and putting it under the rubber bands. The velcro always tears up my fingers around the nail beds, so sometimes I wear gloves. 
Some like Smilie and @Hondo have added buckles I believe instead of using the velcro. 

My DH has a chronic form of plantar fascitis called plantar fasciosis, which never goes away. However, I've had the acute form a couple of times, and have known many people who have. It usually can be resolved quickly, within a week or two with stretches, icing, padding, rest. When DH went to an ortho doctor, and a podiatrist, they told him people get better if they rest, or if they continue to run and exercise, so there is no real recommendation about either. They said whatever makes it feel better is probably correct for you.


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## SueC

The size fit is looking very good. You won't have long velcro in the bottom strap if you adjust the wire cables and make them a little tighter; and that way all the hook velcro will stick to all the loop velcro as intended. It will make the velcro strap stick strongly and reduce wear and shear on the wires, and undue stress on the plastic shell where the wires come out (long wire = cheesewire effect).

You just rotate the little round metal knob in the front and loosen the hollow screws in there to release the wires, then tighten, then screw back up. I was a little over-enthusiastic when I started with adjusting Renegades and stripped a thread (had to replace the whole part because I could no longer work the screw), so I am gentler now. They have excellent online instructions for everything, with pictures.


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## SueC

An ABC item I saw today that you might enjoy.

Drovers say Australia's legendary outback stock routes in danger of collapse - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

Horses have been mostly replaced by four-wheeler ATVs except on the stations and rangelands in the lower-rainfall areas of Australia.


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## tinyliny

Here are some suggestions I have to offer for managing Plantar Faciatis:


(and, if it gets really bad, it won't really every totally go away, so it becomes a game of management)


after your run, ice your foot. freeze solid a medium sized coke , and when you are sitting at your computer or watching tv, put it under your bare or socked foot, and roll back and forth, using the arc of the bottle to stretch out the fascia. press hard, and stretch, and let the cold reduce inflammation.


at night, you can wear either a 'boot', or a special sock, which helps to keep your toes up and the achilles tendon slightly elongated.
this may or may not do much for you.


Don't walk barefoot. and, avoid super soft shoes, like rubbery flipflops. Negative heel shoes, like Birkenstocks, SEEM to help but actually make things worse.


around the house, if you want to wear slippers, get ones that have good arch support. I recommend heartily the Haflinger brand. the compressed wool , shaped for the arch, is very comfortable


for running shoes, get ones with very good arch support. I am a big fan of Brookes brand. The Addiction, or Adrenalin, or 'The Beast".


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## bsms

Tried Bandit in boots today. Riding. My wife came out and recorded 3.5 of our first 5 minutes. I hadn't ridden in a week, and I'm always stiff the first 10-15 minutes. My wife zooms in part way, but I had set the movie camera for a lower resolution to save on file size. I think the zoom was digital, enlarging a low resolution video. Oh well. I'll change it.

But I think it shows Bandit adapted quickly to moving around in his hoof boots. We did another 30 minutes after my wife left and he was moving more relaxed and more fluidly by the end. BTW - he's back in the Dr Cook's bridle, and I went back to my normal trail riding stirrup length just in case things went bad and he got upset. But things didn't go bad. He didn't get upset or fussy. Just a little puzzled at first.

I did need to put a roll on his front feet with a file to get a better fit. But right now, I'm happy with what I am seeing:


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## bsms

Sounds like good advice, @*tinyliny* ! Thanks! I'm thinking more arch support - ordered from Amazon, supposed to arrive today - in my running shoes. When healthy, it doesn't seem to matter for me. But once injured, I think arch support will help. I've also found I need to wear shoes indoors while healing. We have tile floors. Good for sweeping up dog hair, but not much support or cushion for the foot!

I "liked" your post, @*SueC* , but it is hard to like. I understand changes come, but as the world gets tamer, it becomes a sadder place too. We've become so separated from the natural world! I'm guilty too. I find horses help me. Hiking thru the desert WITH my horse adds a connection I cannot match hiking on my own feet. Bandit is sooooo much more in tune with nature, and he shares some of it with me. Without a horse's help, I miss out on so much when hiking!

Even the half-hour of arena riding today. He was aware when a neighbor went down his driveway on a skateboard, and of people working on a roof several hundred yards away. Horses are just so much more in synch with nature than we are. I think they share some of that with us when we ride, or do if we ride "together" with them instead of "on" them.

Speaking of which, I think I noticed something recently. Gen US Grant was a very respected HORSEMAN in the US Army. George Custer was a very respected RIDER in the same era. I've read many accounts of how well Custer RODE, but people discussing GRANT mentioned his skill with horses.

I posted this on another thread, but I'll put it here because I love history and this - from the 1840s - is an interesting glimpse at a past LONG gone by. Then Lt US Grant, remembering 1846:

--------------------​ 
My company commander, Captain McCall, had two good American horses, of considerably more value in that country, where native horses were cheap, than they were in the States. He used one himself and wanted the other for his servant. He was quite anxious to know whether I did not intend to get me another horse before the march began. I told him No; I belonged to a foot regiment. I did not understand the object of his solicitude at the time, but, when we were about to start, he said: “There, Grant, is a horse for you.” 

I found that he could not bear the idea of his servant riding on a long march while his lieutenant went a-foot. *He had found a mustang, a three-year old colt only recently captured, which had been purchased by one of the colored servants with the regiment for the sum of three dollars. It was probably the only horse at Corpus Christi that could have been purchased just then for any reasonable price.* Five dollars, sixty-six and two-thirds per cent. advance, induced the owner to part with the mustang. I was sorry to take him, because I really felt that, belonging to a foot regiment, it was my duty to march with the men. But I saw the Captain’s earnestness in the matter, and accepted the horse for the trip. 

*The day we started was the first time the horse had ever been under saddle. I had, however, but little difficulty in breaking him, though for the first day there were frequent disagreements between us as to which way we should go, and sometimes whether we should go at all. At no time during the day could I choose exactly the part of the column I would march with; but after that, I had as tractable a horse as any with the army, and there was none that stood the trip better. He never ate a mouthful of food on the journey except the grass he could pick within the length of his picket rope.
*
A few days out from Corpus Christi, the immense herd of wild horses that ranged at that time between the Nueces and the Rio Grande was seen directly in advance of the head of the column and but a few miles off. It was the very band from which the horse I was riding had been captured but a few weeks before. The column was halted for a rest, and a number of officers, myself among them, rode out two or three miles to the right to see the extent of the herd. 

The country was a rolling prairie, and, from the higher ground, the vision was obstructed only by the earth’s curvature. As far as the eye could reach to our right, the herd extended. To the left, it extended equally. *There was no estimating the number of animals in it; I have no idea that they could all have been corralled in the State of Rhode Island, or Delaware, at one time.* If they had been, they would have been so thick that the pasturage would have given out the first day. People who saw the Southern herd of buffalo, fifteen or twenty years ago, can appreciate the size of the Texas band of wild horses in 1846.

https://www.bartleby.com/1011/6.html


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## bsms

"*though for the first day there were frequent disagreements between us as to which way we should go, and sometimes whether we should go at all. At no time during the day could I choose exactly the part of the column I would march with*"

That approach - not getting all upset, but giving the horse a chance to figure things out, trusting it will get better - is how I think horse training ought to be done. He doesn't say, but one doesn't get the impression he whipped his horse or got angry or sought to show him who the Big Boss is. Just slowly plugging away, taking a little improvement here, ignoring a digression there.

I could be wrong, or reading things into it. But that is the impression I got.

"Admire the horse for the good things he does and just kinda ignore the wrong things. First thing you know, the good things will get better and the bad things will get less." - Ray Hunt​


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## bsms

"William West is the horseman who once arrested a president. He forced President Ulysses S. Grant to go with him to the police station where he booked the chief executive on charges of speeding. Grant was driving his favorite team of horses at what West thought was excessive speed. He ordered the president to stop, chased him down, gave him a lecture in approved modern traffic cop style, and then arrested him.

Grant and West became solid pals after the incident, and in one of their frequent chats West informed the president that he, too, was a speed maniac, and that while off duty he had been arrested more than 20 times for speeding. West owned a stable of fine horses that at once attracted Grant’s admiration, and provided for the two men a strong bond of common interest....

...Old timers around Washington yet remember West’s remarkable horse, “Dan.” This animal was so trained that when his master had cornered an offender, he would seize the culprit by the coat with his great front teeth. As a rule, the horse was careful not to catch a man’s flesh, but if the offender offered resistance the great teeth would grasp flesh along with clothing. The pair were a familiar sight for years at 7th and U Sts. N. W., where they were stationed....

...Whatever the details are of this story, the fact is, President Grant was arrested just after the Civil War and Emancipation Proclamation by an African-American Washington policeman. That’s a terrific story and a great piece of trivia with which you can impress your history-loving friends...."

https://ghostsofdc.org/2014/03/04/metro-policeman-arrests-u-s-president-speeding/

Also, a good short article here:

http://civilwarcavalry.com/?p=3521


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## SueC

Yeah, @*bsms* , I find it hard to like that too - whole traditions disappearing, and animals being replaced with machines. The only good thing about it from my point of view is that certain people with certain attitudes are better off on four-wheelers than horses! 

So I'm glad the Amish exist too, and some of those still have the old hay wagons, and plough with horses etc and generally maintain old practical traditions.

About the hoof boots, I had a chat to the farrier who mentors me, because Sunsmart has one front hoof which is really hard to get his boot over these days. We had a discussion about "sidedness" in horses' front hooves; their tendency to graze with one preferred foot leading can cause a little disparity in how the hoof grows, but in my horse's case it was partly from birth as well. Anyway, I mustang roll the horses in general, and it helps the boot fit for Sunsmart. So when the farrier was last here, he showed me that I don't need to be afraid of correcting the wall of the horse hoof till about halfway up with a rasp if necessary, to get the breakover point back where it belongs in horses with funny feet. He did this for Sunsmart's funny hoof, and the boot was much easier to fit afterwards. (By the way, warming the boots up in the sun for 10min before fitting can also be helpful, especially when they are new! Tight fits are a bit of a pain, but at least they stay on.)

The take-away point is that Greg says it's no worries to shape the hoof wall a little with the rasp so that it can ease into the boots better. And in the corrective case for my horse's funny foot, it's not about getting the boot to fit, but primarily about encouraging that hoof to stay in shape in general. Case in point is our old Romeo, who has long toe/low heel configuration and has had that for over 30 years, since he came off that truck from the dog auction. This is how his foot looked after Greg last trimmed him.



_Original Caption: Sue usually trims the horse and donkey hooves, but once a year, in mid-summer, our farrier comes to trim rock-hard horn and give general feedback. This is his very well made mustang roll to bring back the breakover point of our 33-year-old gelding, who has a genetic tendency to long toes and low heels. It is actually composed of three different lines of attack with the rasp around the toe – one slightly bevelling the sole at the toe, one bringing in the hoof wall, and then the blunt connector between the two. The old horse was immediately more comfortable walking, and we took a reference photograph.
_

I'm a bit of a wuss when trimming, so it's good to ask a professional, "How far do you go?" in cases like that. Greg did corrective trimming and shoeing for racehorses for 40+ years and is now semi-retired. Loves hoof boots. Also he has this gadget that makes mustang rolling much easier on a person's back. It's a hollow, blunt rod with a round base to make it stable, which he props the hoof on. It's much taller than other examples I've seen farriers use, or what's commercially available here, and he is urging me to make one to save my back because I'm tall. (I've been propping them on my thigh.) And when he's between horses, he turns it around and sits on it like a stool!


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## bsms

@SueC, Bandit tends to grow a long, thick toe. It gets much thicker there. I found today that his own wear is a little lopsided - kind of like what happens with the heel of my cowboy boots, only on the front. I think so time rounding off the entire toe will help him barefoot, too.

Also, the side about halfway back tends to flare out. Our farrier says that is no big deal and it is no big deal if it chips off there. I needed to file 1/16-1/8 inch off for a bulge in the sidewall. Not a lot, but we're over a month since his last trim. I'd rather file regularly, though, than have his feet twist around in the boot. We don't do demanding riding, but he'll still shy 10 feet sideways sometimes, and we do practice some tighter turns. We also go places where a fall would be a disaster for both of us.


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## SueC

By the way, re your riding clip, that's all looking good. I was interested in how the boots would affect Bandit's gait arcs at the trot and canter, on the booted hooves. Adding a little extra weight causes most horses to elevate their action slightly, and you can just see this when you compare the arcs described by Bandit's booted and unbooted hooves, in your clip. There's not much in it, and by the way, your horse is what the harness racing fraternity would describe as a "daisy cutter" - a horse who has a very efficient gait for running and covering distance because he doesn't waste any energy on unnecessary, but showy, elevation of his action when running. Another difference in selection pressure between working horses and show horses!  

The Arabian seems to have two modes - daisy cutting on endurance tracks, and elevating when saying "look at me!" in company.


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## bsms

When the former owner & his friend visited us a while back, they both said Bandit was the fastest horse on their team. They did relay races, I think 4-5 horses running 10-15 mile legs. They traded in hopes that Mia would improve their stock. Her sire was Gazaar and the lines on her dam's side were Russian racing lines.

This is copied from another website concerning Gazaar. That website went down for a while but seems to be working again. I'll post it here in hopes of keeping the information:

_Gazarr was purchased by Mr. & Mrs. Booker in Perris, CA (Stardust Arabians) at age 16 months where he lived out his life till he passed away at age 33 in 2001, fertile to the end.

According to his owners, Gazarr was the first of his type of breeding to make it to their area. He was a dominant breeding stallion who sired type, size (like your boy at almost 16hh - Esquire seems to be doing the same







) and especially correctness on his foals which were about 90% bays, the rest Grays & a few colored foals. He sired over 250 Purebred foals (and is on the AHW's leading sire list). He also sired 63 Part-bred foals.

According to his owner, Gazarr has sired 9 National Champions, with grand-get that have been winning & several that are National Champions, then the great grand-get such as Esquire as a US TT winner along with many other great-grand-get doing as well!

Gazarr's daughter Revelrie (out of the Cross-U-Bar bred mare NA Nusiata & Esquire's grand-dam) not only was a Two time Scottsdale Top Ten Mare (1983 & 1986) She also was Region 1 Top 5 mare, a Halter Champion Mare & Jr. Champion filly. Revelrie's full brother, Revelation+ was a Canadian National finalist in 1983, a US National Finalist 1982, received his Legion of Honor, Region 1 Top 5 Stallion 1982, Region 4 Top 5 Stallion 1979, Pacific Slope Top 5 Stallion 1979 & 1982, English Pleasure Champion, Blue Western Pleasure with 19 Halter Championships.

Most likely, Gazarr's most noted son Zarr Hassan +/ (out of Belleza) was 1982 Canadian National Champion Stallion, 1982 US National Reserve Champion Stallion, US Top Ten Stallion 1980, 1982, 1983, Canadian Top 10 Stallion 1981 & 1982, Received his Legion of Supreme Honor, Region 1 Champion Stallion 1982, Region 2 Top 5 Stallion 1980, Pacific Slope Top 5 1980, and also had 17 Halter Championships.

Please keep in mind these are just a few of his winning offspring. There were many many more. Gazarr also sired horses who won on the racetrack!! Alluring Lad made his debut on the track in 1996, racing 3 times, winning all 3 races! He received a non-race injury that retired him for the balance of 1996. If you can locate a "Horsetrader" February 20, 1997 magazine, there is a photo of Alluring Lad on page 37 shown winning the $23,750 California Futurity! Zarr McKenzie was Gazarr's first get to go into race training - winning his first time out!

In 1987, Gazarr was brought out at age 18 to be presented under saddle at the Fall Spectacular at the Mekeel Ranch after not having been ridden in 8 years!!!! There might even be some ol' timers lurking these boards that remember seeing him there! Linda Riley tuned him up and rode him for the presentation where he was just as good as he had ever been!

Gazarr had been known to most Arabian Enthusiast back in the day as "The big bay horse that Kit Hall rides" and actually was Kit Halls first major English Pleasure mount!_

Gazarr++ - The Crabbet and CMK Breeder's Forum - A Black Horse Community

Mia was a 2000 model, so she had to be one of the last from her sire - who was 32 in 2000!

Bandit looked pretty bad in comparison when he arrived:









At the time, and for a while after, I wondered what in the heck I had done! But Mia needed a place where she could run, and Bandit...well, he doesn't object much to moseying along a trail now, although he still goes faster than the other two. He's a quick learner and never loses his mind. 

Trooper, FWIW, walks SLOW - but trots fast and will haul butt in a canter. That came from his training. Herding sheep, you walk. You walk LONG distances, each day. The sheep aren't in a hurry. But if you need to go somewhere, at a trot and certainly at a canter, then you NEED to go somewhere! We didn't understand why he was so content to stroll, but then moved fast in a trot or canter...until we went out with the herders for a few days!


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## SueC

bsms said:


> I understand changes come, but as the world gets tamer, it becomes a sadder place too. We've become so separated from the natural world! I'm guilty too. I find horses help me. Hiking thru the desert WITH my horse adds a connection I cannot match hiking on my own feet. Bandit is sooooo much more in tune with nature, and he shares some of it with me. Without a horse's help, I miss out on so much when hiking!
> 
> Even the half-hour of arena riding today. He was aware when a neighbor went down his driveway on a skateboard, and of people working on a roof several hundred yards away. Horses are just so much more in synch with nature than we are. I think they share some of that with us when we ride, or do if we ride "together" with them instead of "on" them.


This is so true, and I had this for such a long time in my life that I found it hard to understand that this wasn't everyone's "normal". From the time I was 9 in particular, and riding that super-calm, clever, protective French Trotter mare - she was actively teaching me things, sort of as older female who'd had five of her own offspring, to young "cub":

_See here, see there, this is what we do. _

_This is the safe thing to do._

_Did you notice that? Look over there._

And on that occasion where I got stuck barefoot in a patch of prickles when walking around the bush on our farm as a kid,and she found me. _I see you got yourself into trouble. Let me help you out._ Dropped her neck so I could slide over it and elevated me up (her usual procedure for bareback mounting) and I was on her back and she took me home to the farmhouse, no reins etc, and when I got off rubbed her head on me before going back to the other horses. Wow. Special horse, but horses are much deeper than a lot of people realise. Especially old souls like she was.

Then there's the Zen-ness they can teach us, the being in the moment and really seeing and hearing and being present, instead of going in loops inside our own heads.

And wildlife is so different out there when you're on horseback as opposed to walking. Being on a horse seems to make you one of them, not the enemy, and you see things you'd never see if you weren't with a horse. It's kind of like being on CS Lewis' version of Mars for a while! ;-)

It was friendship and this extraordinary freedom that horses gave me during a difficult time as a young person - a freedom I could only really see with them, riding in nature. You've seen what I typed out after doing those flower memorials on Friday, and when I re-read that myself I thought it was so fitting and so full circle that this is exactly what I'm trying to give them now that we're on our own farm - freedom and friendship, with their own kind and with us - horses that never had much of either, whom I've known since they were little.

That's a fantastic story about that mustang colt! Like like like. Brett was saying about the huge herd in Texas those days, "I wonder who was lead mare!" :rofl:

PS: I've just finished that translation project, when we scan the photos and I post it I think you'll really like it - re trusting the horse type riding school! :cowboy:


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## bsms

Not exactly about horses, but the idea may be the same. Let us all hope our horses give us good reviews and don't race as far away as possible!












​


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## bsms

Well, Bandit has hurt himself again. A patch of skin bigger than a silver dollar missing from one knee and a good scrape on the other. He is the only horse I recall EVER cutting his legs, other than one time with Mia when she tried to kick thru a fence. His previous owner said his dam was the same way - if there was a way to get hurt, she would find it. His legs were fine this morning.

My wife's favorite part of nursing is wound care. She has ended up doing a lot of it and developed a reputation at her work for getting wounds to heal quickly. She says it isn't as bad as it looks, that a good cleaning (done) and regular Red Kote applications should heal it. But no riding for him for the next few days, minimum!

And I think he'd be upset if I went out riding on one of the other two and left him behind. I'm pretty sure he'd consider that a violation of natural law! So probably no riding for me for a few days, although it might be good for me to ride Trooper a few times in our little arena (within visual range of the corral).

It will be a miracle if his legs stay sound for another 10 years. The good news, I guess, is that his current life involves low stress on the legs - lots of walking, sometimes trotting and cantering, but not for long. I can't undo any damage already done, though...:evil:

As usual, his behavior while being cleaned and sprayed was flawless. The Red Kote obviously stings, and he knows it stings, but he behaves beautifully while being treated. I assume it comes with so much practice. That, and whatever else was done to him in his previous life, he came here believing people do good things to horses. You can almost hear him say, "_It's going to hurt, isn't it? Well, soonest done, soonest mended. Strange Monkey Who Rides Me, how about some face rubs while The Mare-Lady Who Doesn't Ride makes the bad things go away..._" Darn good horse in his own way. Weird, but good.


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## SueC




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## bsms

Harry Chamberlin:


> *General Chamberlin, before his death in 1944, was generally acknowledged to be America’s greatest horseman.* Brig. Gen H.D. Chamberlin studied at the French (Samur) and Italian (Tor di Quinto) cavalry academies in the 1920’s. He brought modern Italian and French concepts home to the U.S. Army Equestrian Team in the 1930’s and early 1940’s. Chamberlin’s method was generally based on the Italian school of Caprilli. His books, which included the Fort Riley Cavalry Manual, set forth these ideas very clearly. Fort Riley pupils (enlisted men and officers) had an enormous influence on American riding from at least the 1930’s through the 1970’s.
> 
> Brigadier General Harry D. Chamberlin | Equestrian Coach





> Harry Chamberlin, rather than just a rider and competitor, was a student of horsemanship. He requested, and was selected to attend the French Cavalry School at Saumur, France in 1922. He had a desire to add more knowledge about Caprilli’s forward method to the sound foundation he’d received at Saumur and was selected to train at Tor Di Quinto, Italy once his time at Saumur was completed. Harry Chamberlin excelled in the forward system at Tor Di Quinto. When his time was finished at Tor Di Quinto, Harry Chamberlin visited the German school at Hanover and also the British Cavalry School at Weedon.
> 
> From 1925-1927 Harry Chamberlin was stationed at Fort Bliss,Texas where he taught horsemanship and played polo. Under his leadership, the 8th Cavalry Polo team won championships in 1925 and 1926. He played polo in addition to his regular duties which included responsibility for his squadron of more than 300 troopers and 500 horses.
> 
> Harry Chamberlin - Teacher & Horseman - U.S. Horsemanship


This comes from "Riding and Schooling Horses" by Harry Chamberlin. To the best of my knowledge, the copyright has long since expired. It is an excerpt, posted for educational purposes and discussion. Italics are from his text, for emphasis. Any underlining is my own emphasis.

Chamberlin Riding Position

...the racing seat over the shoulders is mechanically of great advantage to the race-horse. It has the disadvantages of being most uncomfortable for the rider over any long periods of time, and being insecure if the horse makes any violent or unexpected movements, particularly sideways. The shorter the stirrup-straps, the greater becomes the insecurity of the seat. Then comes the thought that since long stirrups make for security, why not always have them extremely long, as do cowboys? The answer is that such long stirrups are only suited to certain types of saddles, as, for instance, the western cowboys', and obviously the seat resulting from such long stirrups is disadvantageous, both to horse and rider in sports like polo, hunting, steeplechasing, and jumping...

..._The principles of the seat advocated herein remain the same for all types of riding. There are only minor variations in the length of the stirrup-straps, and in the resulting change in the forward inclination of the body. It will be found that the shorter the stirrup becomes, the more the body must be inclined to the front to remain in perfect balance, and thus minimize interference with the horse's efforts._...

...In hacking, since the distances ridden are usually not great, and the time on the horse's back is short, the stirrups may be adjusted primarily to suit the rider's comfort. They should be fairly long. In breaking and training a young horse, there is a marked advantage in having the stirrups quite long, since the rider's legs are then well down around his mount, where they may be employed strongly as aids in teaching the lessons at hand, and also wrapped about him to provide security of seat in case the youngster bucks or violently plays up. No matter what the length of the stirrup is, the body is _always inclined to the front_; slightly with long stirrups, and progressively farther as the stirrups become shorter...

...it may be said that _the seat to be described is an exceedingly simple and natural one._ In fact, most children, as soon as they have gained a little confidence on a horse's back, assume the correct posture instinctively, Unfortunately, their natural tendencies are often ruined under the tutelage of the ignorant grooms and unqualified riding teachers abounding in this country...

Stirrups and Legs

...For hacking and normal training of the horse, when he is not to be schooled in jumping, the rule for the length of the stirrup straps is as follows: _Being seated as described above, with the legs hanging down in a natural position by the horse's sides and the feet out of the stirrups, the treads of the stirrups should hang even with the center of the large bones on the inner sides of the ankle joints._ This is a general rule...

...For the beginner, it is well to have the stirrups a little on the long side, rather than too short, as this permits, and almost forces the rider to work the thighs and knees well down around the horse, and thus overcome the usual instinctive tendency to raise the knees, which makes the seat unstable and weakens the grip of the knee and calves, It is the ability to grip with the calves of the legs, and to a much lesser extent with the knees and thighs, that provides the strength of seat through which a good rider stays with his horse when difficulties, such as shying, plunging, stumbling, bucking or jumping arise. No matter how much the stirrups are shortened, it must be understood that the _stirrup-straps, when the seat is correct, always remain vertical, and that as a result of shorter stirrups, the knees, though raised, go very little farther to the front....as the stirrups are shortened, the seat and buttocks are necessarily pushed farther back on the cantle. This demands more forward inclination of the body from the hips_...

...Position of Foot in Stirrup

After the stirrup has been adjusted so that the tread strikes the ankle bone, _the foot is placed well home, so that the tread rests under the instep, and not against the ball of the foot._ The almost universal habit of putting the ball of the foot on the tread is very faulty, and should only be done in schooling of a technical order, such as high school work and early training of a colt, where light touches of the spur are frequently needed. For cross-country work, polo, jumping, and other real riding, the foot belongs well home in the stirrup where it will not jar out at the least mishap, and endanger or momentarily incapacitate the rider. Moreover, unless the foot is pushed home, it is much more difficult to keep the proper position of the heel, ankle, and leg from the knee down, which is of fundamental importance in riding correctly. 

Heels

After putting the feet in the stirrups, _the ankle joints should remain relaxed, and the heels be forced down as far as possible. The importance of keeping the heels down cannot be too greatly emphasized._ It produces the strength and stability of the whole seat. With heels thus placed, the calf muscles can be powerfully contracted when it is desired to grip the horse, either to drive him forward, or to keep the seat when balance has been disturbed from any cause. With the toes lower than the heels, it is physically impossible to contract the calf muscles and grip tightly, Also, the lower legs should continuously rest against the horse's sides. _With properly adjusted stirrups, and the heels forced down as far as they will go, the calves of the legs just below the knees are forced against the horse automatically._ The ankle joints must be habitually relaxed. This in conjunction with the slight inclination of the body to the front, which forces some weight constantly into the stirrups, make it simple and natural to keep the heels down. The stirrups should be short enough so that, with the heels down, the calves of the legs can, with ease, be kept snugly against the horse's sides. If the straps are too long, the calves do not rest against the horse, the heels come up, and the whole seat is less steady, stable, and comfortable.

Feet

The toes turn out at an angle which is comfortable, and which allows the calves of the legs, particularly the inner portion just below the knees, to close against the horse. The feet will normally form an angle of between 20 and 45 degrees with the longer axis of the horse. This angle varies slightly with the length of the stirrup-straps, as well as with the conformation of the horse and rider.

Manner of taking seat

An excellent way to take the correct seat is, first: - place one hand on the pommel of the saddle to steady one's self, and stand in the stirrups, completely out of the saddle. The body leans forward slightly while standing in the stirrups. Next, relax the ankle joints so the heels, driven by the body's weight, are forced far down, at the same time taking care that the stirrup-straps are vertical, and that the lower legs are fixed in place against the horse's sides. The legs should not be allowed to change position during the rest of the procedure of taking the seat. Allow the toes to turn out naturally so that the calves come automatically against the horse's sides. Then, _holding the lower legs in place with the knees fixed against the saddle_, let the seat down into the saddle by flexing the knee joints and leaning forward from the hips at the same time, so as to place the buttocks far to the rear over the cantle...Straighten up the body from the hips until seated in a natural and erect position. There should be a very slight forward inclination from the hips, which distributes part of the weight of the body and legs down the thighs, through the relaxed ankles and knees, into the greatly depressed heels...

...The natural position of the spine - slightly hollowed out at the loin - should be maintained. This and the forward inclination of the body will permit only the anterior portions of the pelvic bones to rest on the saddle...When riding, the weight of the body borne by the heels (through the stirrups) and in addition, that of the legs themselves, keep pushing the heels and knees down with each stride. This closes the calves against the horse if the knee joints are relaxed, makes the contact constant, and gripping with the calves, or even the knees, very easy. The rider is in balance....

...Knees

The knees rest snugly at all times against the saddle, which follows naturally if the trunk, seat and thighs are placed just as described. _They do not grip hard except in emergencies, or to prevent the seat from slipping forward in the saddle, in case the horse slows his pace of halts abruptly._

Gripping to tightly with the knees or thighs is fatiguing, produces general stiffness, and squeezes a rider out of his seat, just as a lemon seed can be forced out from between the thumb and forefinger by squeezing. Unfortunately it is a habit instinctive with beginners. The leg grip should be most powerful _just below the knees_, and is produced by the calves. The knees also tighten, however, to hold the seat in place if the horse pulls, or when much tension is required on the reins. The brace of the feet against the stirrups, (due to the very low position of the heels), assisted by the pressure of the knees when necessary, permits a rider to maintain the forward inclination of the body and hold his seat in place while restraining a pulling horse. Also, in case the horse stumbles, "pecks" in front of a jump, or stops unexpectedly, the grip of the knees increases to help keep the seat fixed in place. It is vital in all these cases, that the back be kept naturally straight, and not humped over, in order to keep from falling forward. _Always, the body is inclined forward from the hips._...

...A common fault always to be guarded against, is stiffening the knee joints. Only when purposely standing in the stirrups should this be done. Normally, the knee joints are almost completely relaxed. They are not entirely limp, but work sufficiently to keep the lower legs in place...

...Loin

The body, although held upright, should be devoid of stiffness and rigidity. The loin functions as a spring that takes up much of the jar due to the reactions of the horse's movements. It must remain in a natural position, _just as when standing erect_, so that it can give in a supple manner to either the front or rear. It should be constantly under voluntary muscular control, _partially relaxed, but not collapsed_, as is often erroneously taught. The hip, knee, and ankle joints, together with the loin, absorb and soften the jars resulting from the horse's movements.

-------------------------------​ 
Took a long time to type that up, so I'll add my comments later. Pheww!!! 

I like what he wrote about POSITION, although for reasons I'll discuss later I don't always follow it. I found what he wrote about use of spurs and about rein use hideous, largely because I am NOT in the cavalry and do not share the same needs in a horse.


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## gottatrot

I found the description as quite accurate to how I ride.

I agree that a longer leg is more stable - but only if done as described, where you can still get the heel down. If you have to lower your toes to reach the stirrups, it negates the ability to use the stirrups and leg on the horse as well. Certain saddles can compensate for this, but meaning if you are talking about seat and position alone. 

It is a very good description of how to ride securely. When he talks about using the stirrup in the "home" position, I think of myself as having the stirrup on the ball of the foot, but it's actually just behind the ball on the mid-foot. That's the part of the foot most stable to stand on. It's really the only part of the foot where you can use the leg as he describes, with the weight going down effectively. Too far back at the heel, and your heel won't drop down. Too far forward and you'll lose the stirrup if you temporarily lose the weight down your leg during a canter transition, or etc.

It's very true, the description of having the heel down but the ankles relaxed. This can't be done if you're forcing anything. Same with the knees relaxed but the calf against the horse. Many good descriptions here. 

He also describes a dynamic seat, where you don't grip - unless you need to, and your joints are relaxed, unless they need to tighten temporarily. That is accurate to my experiences. 

Depending on what you are doing, I believe the longest stirrup possible is a good guideline. If you're going over big jumps, over rough footing, or galloping/long trotting on a rough horse, you'll want to shorten your stirrup enough to keep your seat clear of the horse's back during big movements. Otherwise you'll be banging around on the horse. But the shorter your stirrups, the more difficult it is for most of us to remain flexible and loose, because of the increased angles your joints must achieve - as in the description of how your stirrups stay hanging straight down, but your seat angles increase. And the less of you that is in contact with the horse, the less secure your seat. So it is a trade off, to decide what stirrup length provides the most security in these cases.


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## bsms

Something that hadn't caught my attention when I first read it was his discussion about different needs in riding. The book included more examples, but I guess I glommed on to the pictures of "correct length" and ignored his distinctions between saddle types, trade-offs in security, young horses, hacking versus cross country (which means something very different to him than to me!) versus 'hacking'.

Most of my riding involved what he considered hacking, or in working...well, not "young" horses, but horses whose spookiness was off the charts by cavalry standards. If you rode a horse for hundreds of hours in the open while surrounded by another 50 horses, spookiness might not be a big issue. It is like with the sheepherders: horses don't spook much when there are 1,000 sheep there acting calm!

Mia's "startle reaction" - her reflex to something startling her - was often a 360 spin. Then she'd stand still and wait for me to tell her what to do next - assuming I stayed on thru an unexpected 360 spin! Not too surprisingly, a bit of practice led me to using a much longer stirrup than his "normal" setting - because normal for Mia & I was not "normal" for the cavalry!

My wife took the picture below while Mia and I were discussing the advisability of going down a street that had a very large moving van parked on the side, with people moving stuff inside - a huge predator whose stomach was growling! It says a lot about her fundamental willingness that she soon went past the van. I doubt Bandit would. He's saner, but fundamentally far less "willing". He is much more of an independent thinker, not entirely interested in doing what his rider wants just because the rider wants it.

But much of what Chamberlin wrote is there, with the added wrinkles that I had a horn on my saddle (good for keeping your shoulders above your hips during a violent movement) and my belief in the western approach of using loose reins as much as possible. Chamberlin seemed to believe loose reins were anathema in riding - a sign of gross incompetence. He was very much into totally dominating a horse. Quoted approvingly a French proverb that "The horse should believe God is on his back and the Devil is at his belly" - meaning any resistance by the horse should be met with aggressive "attack" with the spurs! 

That is why I like what he wrote on position and balance, but HATE much of the rest of the book! Still, to get around to the actual picture, much of what he said about position and balance is there below:








​ 
I was going to go anywhere Mia went, and I was going to do so without throwing her off balance!

His love of the "home" position may be rooted in something he didn't mention. He taught security is based in the lower leg - as did Littauer. It isn't your BUTT that keeps you on. It is your lower leg, from just below the knee down, that provides the security. It can be briefly aided by the knee and even thigh, but he wanted "heels down" to stretch the calf muscle, making it constantly firm (even when relaxed). Firm calf against firm horse's side, with a very stable lower leg and a vertical stirrup strap meant the rider goes sideways when the horse does!

Although it is not physically true, my mental image is of my weight all residing in my calves and heels - uninterrupted by a squeezing knee! If all my weight is below the horse's back, then I cannot come off the horse's back! Not unless he bucks hard enough to lift my lower leg above his back.

But here is something I've noticed about using the home position:








​

My stirrups were further back than normal in that picture. But notice how the stirrup strap tends to wrap around my shin. If my horse suddenly slows, my entire lower leg is braced against forward motion - my feet by the stirrups, but my entire lower leg against the stirrup strap wrapped around it.

I now MOSTLY ride with a little longer stirrup and have it placed further forward, with the leading first inch of the stirrup placed where I put my foot climbing a ladder. But the full home position Chamberlin liked gives me support all the way up my shin. It is a trade-off though, and I like what Gincy Bucklin refers to as "the Bubbling Spring" - where we would carry our weight if we get ready for a fight - on the leading inch of my stirrup. And my current stirrups have a 3" tread depth, so the rear edge is then close to my heel anyways. 

I also like how he says to take the saddle. I'm pretty stiff, but I'm finding it helpful to take a couple minutes and let my horse walk in the arena while I 'stand in the stirrups', thinking about letting my weight FLOW past my knees and into my heels. "Then, _holding the lower legs in place with the knees fixed against the saddle_, let the seat down into the saddle..." Doesn't take much lowering with me since my stirrups don't lift me very far. But a couple minutes of two point helps stretch my legs and hips. If my horse spooks 3 minutes later, my thighs will be lower and more firmly around my horse. That helps during the first 0.25 seconds of a spook.

And @gottatrot, the video you posted of Nala has me thinking staying on in a spook is really about the first 0.25 seconds, before our human bodies have much time to react. If we are anticipating trouble, I think we can start reacting in 0.1 - 0.15 seconds. But the initial violence of the spook is already halfway thru by then. And if caught unprepared, I think our reflexes are more around 0.25 seconds...and Nala proved a horse can move a LONG way in 0.25 seconds!

The video, slowed down 8-fold, is below for anyone who hasn't seen it:






If our position and balance can keep us in the game the first 0.25 seconds, then staying on becomes much easier. Still no time for conscious thought, but we can at least start responding via good habit patterns. If the first 0.25 seconds puts our shoulders far enough out of line with our hips and our horse, then we WILL come off. Basic physics: If the center of gravity moves outside the object's base of support, the object tumbles.


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## SueC

I don't know if you've seen this, but it's gold...

Halloween Darwin Awards Aviation Style! | Adventures of Cap'n Aux


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## bsms

From a post on gottatrot's journal:



bsms said:


> ...On a good note, rode Bandit in the arena for a half hour today, second time in the last 3 days but also the second time in almost the last 30. His knees are almost healed up and the big patch of missing skin on his back is starting to grow hair again. I used my old leather saddle because the tree is a lot bigger and I figured that would mean less PSI on Bandit's bare spot.
> 
> The stirrups are hung further forward. Had forgotten how nice that is for how I like to ride. Stretches my leg out more due to the much wider tree. Not so thrilled by that. But after Saturday's short ride, having trouble getting the cinch tied, I went and bought Bandit a 30" cinch! Now, it might be a little big for him. But he used a 26 inch cinch for the first couple of years, then a 28" cinch. The 30 inch cinch looks like it will now be a good match. Bandit isn't exactly chubby, but he's thicker! His feet have gone from 4.5" across to 5.25" and maybe just a hair more. He stands a bit wider and, if the cinch is a guide, is a good 3 inches bigger around his chest than when he was 7 years old (2015). When the 30" stretches out, it will be a little big. Not bad, though, for a horse growing between 7 & 10 years of age!


Felt good to ride again. Was solo. The rest of the family is on vacation and I'm tending the dogs and horses, which sounds like a vacation to me! But my worst hurts riding have all come when I'm home alone. Bandit hasn't been out in close to a month. So we stayed in the arena. On Saturday, he felt awkward. Today, he was getting his groove back. Offered more canters, including a stop to canter transition - we were pointed to the far end of the arena, which is only 120 feet away tops, but it is one of the few places where he can canter, briefly, straight and with no rocks to worry about.

I used a bit with him both times. An O-ring snaffle on Saturday, but he fussed the entire ride with it. You would never have guessed he's been ridden in it a LOT. Today I used Mia's old Billy Allen. I can direct rein in a solid curb, but figured the BA is a better design for it. He was no fuss, no bother today. Other than the flies! We might have done some cantering just to briefly get away from them.

And I managed not to get hurt riding while the rest of the family is on vacation. Yet! Got two more days to go...Also, tried dismounting Bandit at a walk due to some discussions about emergency dismounts. Didn't try it at a trot since...well,this is a historically bad time to try new things. But at a walk? By the time my right leg cleared his rump, he had stopped. Seemed to figure the old guy had forgotten to give the stop cue, so he filled it in for me! A responsible horse needs to account for the foolishness of his rider. And the forgetfulness of his senior-aged monkey. If I forget to tell him to stop when I OBVIOUSLY need him to stop, he'll fill in the blank and not mention it. No need to shame the old guy for getting forgetful!


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> I used a bit with him both times. An O-ring snaffle on Saturday, but he fussed the entire ride with it. You would never have guessed he's been ridden in it a LOT. Today I used Mia's old Billy Allen. I can direct rein in a solid curb, but figured the BA is a better design for it. He was no fuss, no bother today.


It makes me wonder if he has been used to not having something so mobile in his mouth recently, so it bothers him more than it used to?
Kind of like wearing a watch or ring when you haven't been for awhile.

It's been interesting discussing emergency dismounts on the other thread. Funny how Bandit knew he should be stopped if you were getting off. 
Smart horse. 
I doubt someone who rides mindfully such as yourself would need to practice. People who have been athletic and used their bodies a lot can perform things more intuitively in a bad situation. I've done a _regular_ dismount onto bad footing several times and nearly sprained my ankle stepping in a hole. 
This past week I rode with four different riders I am certain would not be able to dismount safely if their horse was not standing perfectly still.


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## bsms

I used to defend buying a horse and learning to ride. I still think it is doable, but it takes a certain sort. My wife enjoys being around horses. She has good instincts around them. But she would no more watch a 10 minute video on how to mount a horse well than she would leap off a roof onto a horse's back a la Hollywood! She will always need a caretaker horse. Horses like Cowboy & Trooper, who know their jobs and will cheerfully follow Mia / Bandit, putting their trust in their lead horse instead of their rider.

She never tried to ride Mia. I think Mia intimidated her from a riding perspective. With good reason, since Mia was patient with those who tried and failed but had no tolerance for someone who wasn't trying at all. The only time Mia bucked in 7 years was when my daughter tried to use her for a lesson. My daughter wasn't paying attention. Partway thru the lesson, Mia had enough. She bucked hard, threw my daughter, stared at her on the ground, then turned and walked away! The instructor was a patient lady, but she said she understood how Mia felt.

I don't understand it. How can you genuinely like horses and yet pay no attention to how you ride? I've become convinced many people can ride for 30 years and not ride any better at the end than they did after 3 months.

I often claim to be a self-taught rider, but I'm not. Not after reading 30-40 books, often more than once, and watching hundreds of videos! I cannot imagine riding for years, as my family members have, without once asking yourself, "_How can I make mounting easier on my horse? Is there a safer way to get on or off?_" I've largely learned to deal with it. Except for when my wife decides I need her instruction on how to ride based off her long experience watching TV...:angrily_smileys:


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## knightrider

@bsms, I hear you on the part about family being gone and riding alone. When my kids were little, I very rarely had them both gone so I could do a long ride. About once a year, usually in July, both kids would be gone for a week. Then I'd ride, ride, ride, taking advantage of having the extra time and freedom. And it was usually alone, because none of my neighbors wanted to go out for 5 hours. And it seemed like almost every year, during that time, I'd have a bad fall and get hurt. It got so my daughter was afraid to go off to grandma's for a week for fear she'd come home to a hurt mama. She'd try to make me promise not to ride alone . . . but I wouldn't promise because I knew I was going to.

This is the second July in a row in which I have not gotten hurt! Of course, my kids are big now, and I can ride whenever I want, but as with everyone, there usually isn't that much time. I think it has helped that Chorro is now 13 years old, and pretty much over his silly stuff. Still, I always wonder the month of July, _is this the time I'm going to have a bad fall?_

My neighbor back in Maryland never did learn to ride, and she had horses and rode for 20 years. She never learned to put her saddle on, never gained any confidence, never improved her riding. She rode with me at least once a week. She had one of those babysitter ponies that are worth their weight in gold. As you said, she rode for 20 years and didn't ride any better than she did after the first 3 months.


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## SueC

bsms said:


> And I managed not to get hurt riding while the rest of the family is on vacation. Yet! Got two more days to go...Also, tried dismounting Bandit at a walk due to some discussions about emergency dismounts. Didn't try it at a trot since...well,this is a historically bad time to try new things. But at a walk? By the time my right leg cleared his rump, he had stopped. Seemed to figure the old guy had forgotten to give the stop cue, so he filled it in for me! A responsible horse needs to account for the foolishness of his rider. And the forgetfulness of his senior-aged monkey. If I forget to tell him to stop when I OBVIOUSLY need him to stop, he'll fill in the blank and not mention it. No need to shame the old guy for getting forgetful!


:clap::rofl::clap::dance-smiley05::clap::rofl::clap:

Aaaah, I love hilarity, both as a medicine and just gratuitously... thanks for this...



bsms said:


> I used to defend buying a horse and learning to ride. I still think it is doable, but it takes a certain sort.


Of monkey, and of horse! 

You couldn't say this on the open forum without howls of outrage echoing through cyberspace, but yeah!

You learnt to ride after buying a horse, at around half a century old. :bowwdown::clap::thumbsup:

I learnt to train a horse from scratch without any supervision or help and just the good old TR training manuals, at age 11 - and it was not the disaster many would predict, it turned out very well. 

The problem I think is mostly that many people aren't efficient self-educators. This sort of thing would have drawn a lot less howling from the mainstream 100 years ago, when successful DIY was a more common idea, and outcome.

Lower your expectations, and people will slide further downhill and then, from the lowest place where gravity can take them, will write long treatises on the dangers of altitude... :cheers:



> I've become convinced many people can ride for 30 years and not ride any better at the end than they did after 3 months.
> 
> I often claim to be a self-taught rider, but I'm not. Not after reading 30-40 books, often more than once, and watching hundreds of videos! I cannot imagine riding for years, as my family members have, without once asking yourself, "_How can I make mounting easier on my horse? Is there a safer way to get on or off?_"


Because you don't think you've arrived. That's the big thing, I think. I don't think I've arrived either, and I bet nobody in our journalling group does. Because when you think you've arrived, you don't think there's any need to keep working on it.

Some people think they've arrived because they feel their competence is super high, especially in relation to others - and then interestingly it's often not so when looked at objectively, but because they _think_ it is, they sort of talk down to others and aren't interested in other perspectives. 

Some people think they've arrived because they have attained a workable level at which they are happy to remain - and that's OK.

The people who never feel like they've arrived are the best learners, and the best teachers of others.


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## gottatrot

My dangerous month used to be April. That was when the weather got nice enough that my friends decided to ride out more regularly, after not keeping their horses well exercised over the winter.
However, the ground is still a bit muddy in April. Those couple of weeks while their horses adapted to getting out again were pretty tricky sometimes.


SueC said:


> The problem I think is mostly that many people aren't efficient self-educators...
> 
> ...The people who never feel like they've arrived are the best learners, and the best teachers of others...


Great stuff!


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## egrogan

bsms said:


> She bucked hard, threw my daughter, stared at her on the ground, then turned and walked away! The instructor was a patient lady, but she said she understood how Mia felt.



:rofl: People are staring at me in the coffee shop because I'm laughing too hard.

Mia's reaction is a perfect metaphor for how teachers everywhere feel sometimes!


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## knightrider

> You couldn't say this on the open forum without howls of outrage echoing through cyberspace, but yeah!


The last 3 times people have written on the Forum about being young and wanting to start a colt, I thought about answering and then thought, "Nah, better not. I'd just get howled at." I think that 13 year olds, CAN start young horses if they have the right mindset. I was 12 for my first unhandled colt. He was a Shetland pony stallion. The family who bought him for their kids had no idea about horses. I told them with total confidence, "Don't worry. I've got a book!" And you know what? That pony did just fine. Every couple of days, I would do the next thing the book said to do, and the pony just came right along like the book said he would. Then, when I was 13, my mare had an oopsie foal and I trained him too, and after that, I knew I loved training horses.

I stopped commenting on the Forum about these issues because I wondered, "Am I really that unique?" I don't _think_ so. I don't feel unique. I am not particularly skilled and certainly not especially brave. But I really really don't like being howled at.


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## bsms

The instructor was a former school teacher. She said a picture of Mia's face would have been priceless. That's the part of her I will always miss. The two Arabian mares I've owned just radiated their feelings. It is like when I'd ask her to do some Figure 8s. She was fine with one. OK with the second. By the third or fourth, she'd stop, turned her head around and look at me, and EVERYONE watching her knew she was saying, "_Are you LOST? Would you like me to buy you a map? How about you get off, walk Figure 8s until you are satisfied, and then mount up when you are ready to go somewhere!_"

She presented some serious challenges for a new rider. But she was so ALIVE! Bandit truly is a better horse for 95% of my riding. But if a true trail rider (I'm a putz trail rider!) wanted to buy him & would give him a good home, I'd sell him without much regret. And then look around for a young, spooky Arabian mare who needed an owner who wasn't in a rush to fix her in 30 or 60 days...


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## bsms

knightrider said:


> ...I thought about answering and then thought, "Nah, better not. I'd just get howled at."...


More and more, I find myself typing a reply and then not posting. I'd just get howled at. Once in a while, I'll type something and then think, "_What the heck! Let folks get mad!_" Not too often. I usually make people mad without knowing I've stepped on any toes.

I've largely learned to stop posting when someone says they want their horse to round up. I want to suggest they should have bought a cat instead, but it's a fight I cannot win and I'm not sure it affects me any. The "_I weight 145 lbs. Am I too heavy for my 16 hand horse? Is he too small for my leg?_" posts are different. I think people with a "Riding horses is cruel" agenda pushed a 20% rule, and now are pushing a 15% rule - or even 10% - as a way of stopping people from riding.

The idea that Mia was too small and too weak to carry me blows me away. It would have blown Mia away, too. Or she's have blown the person away.








​
The guy on her back is about as wide as a door. He's got to be 220 in his socks. I feel like a kid in comparison. He'll jump on Mia bareback with a halter and take her out for a gallop. Personally, I think that is probably what Mia needed all along! I sure as heck couldn't do it for her, but he & his wife now view Mia as an utterly reliable, bomb-proof and wonderful horse. Not sure they'd feel that way if they tried riding her through my neighborhood, but I'm very glad to hear they think they got a much better horse than Bandit. I'm also glad they don't try to competitively race Mia, but that is another story.

The idea that the average Arabian cannot carry an average male in a western saddle just astonishes me. They not only DO IT, they do it in endurance racing - with vet checks to make sure there is no harm! In 7 years of riding, I *NEVER, EVER* got off Mia thinking, "*She's worn out. No energy left!*" Part of what was scary at times was how exhausted I could be while on a horse who felt like she had another 50 miles in her easy...


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## Knave

@bsms I completely agree with that! I never have looked at a horse and thought badly because of the rider’s size. It is just a different culture I guess. Then I hear all of these things about weight and horse size and I think that so much more important is rider skill.


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## SueC

Quote:
_You couldn't say this on the open forum without howls of outrage echoing through cyberspace, but yeah!_



knightrider said:


> The last 3 times people have written on the Forum about being young and wanting to start a colt, I thought about answering and then thought, "Nah, better not. I'd just get howled at." I think that 13 year olds, CAN start young horses if they have the right mindset. I was 12 for my first unhandled colt. He was a Shetland pony stallion. The family who bought him for their kids had no idea about horses. I told them with total confidence, "Don't worry. I've got a book!" And you know what? That pony did just fine. Every couple of days, I would do the next thing the book said to do, and the pony just came right along like the book said he would. Then, when I was 13, my mare had an oopsie foal and I trained him too, and after that, I knew I loved training horses.
> 
> I stopped commenting on the Forum about these issues because I wondered, "Am I really that unique?" I don't _think_ so. I don't feel unique. I am not particularly skilled and certainly not especially brave. But I really really don't like being howled at.


Exactly the same experience here as you are describing, dear @*knightrider* , and the feelings about it. It's a weird one: Everyone in this little group has worked with "difficult" horses, a number of us have been educating our own horses from scratch since we were pre-teens, we make horses better instead of worse, we're pretty much all interested in multiple equestrian disciplines and approaches, we have valid and well thought through and backed by empirical evidence critiques of modern mainstream approaches, what we do works, and it's not all the same either, although I think our underpinning philosophies are; and those of us who have competed stand up well in open competition, some of us way exceeding average. But we don't have big heads about it or think we're the bees' knees or the ants' pants or ought to be worshipped for our mere existences or even our _objectively_ (!) considerable achievements. None of the group give me the impression that they think they are better than everybody else - but I tell you what, some of the howlers on the main forum have given me just that impression. :icon_rolleyes:

I like everyone in this group as human beings, and I know my horses would like you too, and work with you all; and they won't work well with just anybody. I like that none of you are bullies or talk down to others or think you're superior or think your animals exist to serve your whims. I like that you are multidimensional people and critical thinkers and DIY-ers, and that you all have good manners, and are helpful to each other and to people in general. I like that you all have such great senses of humour and that you're playful and cerebral and ethical and work with feelings in yourselves and other creatures. I like that none of you are dogmatic and that none of you think there is only one road to the mountaintop. I like that you listen - to each other, to your horses, to the universe if you will. And though we write prolifically, that's only the tip of the iceberg of all the thinking, observing, connecting, reading, hearing, seeing etc we do under the surface of the posts. I like how you speak of, think of, feel about and treat your horses and dogs. 

Last thread about starting horses when you are young - my contribution: 
https://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/how-old-were-you-when-you-792257/page2/#post1970575487 - I still feel the frostiness about it - and it's interesting how when you look at the likes, most of them always end up with the people who say, "I made a dog's breakfast out of it, I ruined a horse, lalalala" and it's like a mutual misery reinforcement society, and nobody seems to be interested in talking to someone who's actually made it work for them.

Oh, unless they have official "horse whisperer" status or tout themselves as "professionals" by dint of making income from it, and do a lot of posturing. Because those persons are frequently hero-worshipped and can do no wrong in the eyes of many, and to question them is heresy, and results in the enthusiastic and malicious building of little bonfire stacks.

This isn't unique to the equestrian world - it's in every area of human endeavour to at least some extent. Martin Luther King talked about the need for a creative minority for positive change, and that it never came from the mainstream, and I think he's spot on.

This is the thread where, when I was new to HF, I first discovered exactly the sort of thing you're talking about, @*knightrider* . I gave some advice based on my own experience, and was really astonished by the blowback, and the cavalier disrespect on the thread for the OP and for those offering alternative points of view to _impossible_, _dangerous_, etc.

https://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/breaking-7-year-old-gelding-432746/


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## knightrider

Wow, @SueC, those two past threads were certainly educational! At least, on the second one, you had two defenders. One of the people putting up negative posts is no longer with us. When Horsetopia stopped getting much traffic, and I started to look for other forums, I checked out Horse Forum and because of the rude posts from that certain person (who shall remain unnamed), I continued to look elsewhere. But none of the others were any better, some even snarkier, and I have a riding buddy who said she liked Horse Forum, so I gave it another try.

That same riding buddy, who can ride rings around me, has a degree in horse science, and knows tons of stuff about horse health, feet, trimming, and medicine, has put up a few posts asking for advice. I am kind of ashamed of some of the condescending answers she is given. She says it doesn't hurt her feelings. It would mine. 

One thing that no one thought about when they urged that second girl to get a trainer: THERE ARE A LOT OF LOUSY TRAINERS OUT THERE. Recently there have been several threads about trainers doing harm to horses rather than helping them; people getting the horses back WORSE than when they sent them. "Get a trainer" does not always equal "a fixed horse."


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## SueC

Did that unnamed person end up becoming a moderator by any chance, @*knightrider* ? Although there were a few like that who would always run in a group snarking and sniping and reinforcing each other. I've got no time for that kind of rudeness on what is supposed to be an educational forum helping people to work better with horses, and that's why I ended up largely confining myself to journals and social threads, which had a different breed of people - cruisy people with manners and a lot more horse experience that these self-proclaimed "experts".

And I completely agree, the world is full of really lousy, professional horse trainers. From my personal observation, there are more bad ones than good ones. The attitude expressed in that thread I linked to by one of the queens of negativity was that she was a professional trainer of 50+ years and that you could never make a mistake with a horse because it would be so hard to fix. That is utter bonkum! Of course you can make mistakes, and will make mistakes, and of course you can fix them. If you have aptitude and you do your research, you will prevent many more mistakes than you will make, but you're not going to be perfect, and you don't have to be, you just have to be consistent and persistent and positive.

I think the problem with a lot of people who do something for a living is that it becomes like a sausage machine unless you're really careful. People whose main motivations for horse training are love of the horse, enthusiasm and wanting to learn have a better basis than people merely doing something for profit. And if you're professional - in _anything_ - and you don't retain your passion and your openness to learning, you're going to be really ordinary at best, and appalling at worst.


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## bsms

In all honesty, I truly have been hot-headed at times and have undoubtedly provoked a few fights. Often without intending anything. Kind of like with the BHS dismount and commenting "Good GAWD Almighty!" - then finding out a LOT of people dismount that way all the time! My only defense is that it never occurred to me someone would do that intentionally...

*Tongue in cheek here*: *The Cardinal Principle of Western Riding* is to ask, "WWJWD?" Yep, Lil Pilgrim!

"*What Would John Wayne Do?*"​ 
Would the Duke belly flop on his horse and then slide off? Well, yeah....but would he do it SOBER? :rofl:

Of course, most of how I ride differs from how John Wayne rode. But I suppose a part of me will always apply the WWJWD rule...BTW, in 1971, John Wayne visited Glen Campbell on his show. Glen rode out and said how he always rode the smaller horse in True Grit and it didn't seem fair. So, he said, since John Wayne was visiting HIS show:










I think, for the horse's sake, John Wayne dismounted about 10 seconds later. ​ 
However, getting back to Bandit & riding. Some time back I tried shorter stirrups and said it caused the cantle to whack my butt in a trot. But Bandit has gotten pretty reliable and I gave it a try today. The heat was building up and it wouldn't have been fair to ask Bandit to walk on black pavement that was roasting in the sun, so it was going to be a Little Arena ride today regardless. I shortened one hole, then after a couple minutes shortened it a second hole. That raised my stirrups 1.5 inches.

First attempt at trot was like the last time. Whack! Whack! Whack! Then I humiliated myself & took hold of the horn to see if I could balance myself better. Bandit was giving me a big trot, so he either felt good about it or nervous. Hold the horn, try to feel right, release for 1 sec, grab, release for 1 sec, grab & adjust and try again, release for 2 seconds, grab, release again...

That is what I mean by using the horn to help figure out two point. I think I discovered this: My problem was that I was used to being closer to the saddle, and I was folding more than needed to give me the right look to my eyes. But if I accept being further out of the saddle, and staying a little straighter, I can stay out all the time without hitting the 4" cantle. Less fold means my butt goes less distance back so it stays away from the cantle.

Mind you, I never saw John Wayne ride like that! But Bandit got pretty energetic. We did a lot of Bandit initiated trotting. Cantering...it felt better to stay seated, but if anything my butt felt more solid in the saddle. My lower back has been getting stronger with jogging. We did walk to canter transitions and several stop to canter transitions. We'd be stopped in a spot where Bandit had the length of our Little Arena ahead. He'd kind of tense. I'd say, "Well, do YOU want to?" And then he'd jump forward and we would canter all 100 - 120 feet available. Pretty ridiculous to any real riders, but it is all the practice area we have. As we ran out of room, he usually slowed to a trot and did a quick trotting turn with me resuming two point, hanging on with my lower leg.

We were also bitless today. It may have been the combination. But Bandit seemed pretty happy to zip & walk, so to speak. I gave him a lot of freedom to choose directions. One time, he started to turn left, changed his mind, and did a hard right reversal to miss the railing. I could REALLY feel my right leg hanging on! But that is part of the purpose of going freestyle sometimes. If you want to feel good about staying on a horse who suddenly changes direction without asking, you need to PRACTICE being on a horse who changes direction without asking!

A half hour had my long sleeve cotton shirt dripping wet, and my T-shirt underneath was worse, so we quit. Bandit was only a little damp, so I don't think he was working as hard as I was. It goes back to what Knave wrote:



Knave said:


> ...It is just a different culture I guess. Then I hear all of these things about weight and horse size and *I think that so much more important is rider skill*.


There are a variety of ways you can help a horse. I was mentored, in a way, by VS Littauer long after his death through the power of books. Getting off a horse's back is not the only way, and not always the best way. But it can be a good way. Rider skill & thoughtfulness. After all, in the end, *if I finish the ride more tired than my horse, then just how "abusive" have I been?*


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## bsms

SueC said:


> ....that you could never make a mistake with a horse because it would be so hard to fix. That is utter bonkum! Of course you can make mistakes, and will make mistakes, and of course you can fix them. If you have aptitude and you do your research, you will prevent many more mistakes than you will make, but you're not going to be perfect, and you don't have to be, you just have to be consistent and persistent and positive...


I suspect a lot of professional trainers get tired of fixing other people's mistakes. But then, many of us don't ask them to do so. Even when I had Mia restarted...the trainer worked with Mia 4 times a week for 2 months, all from the ground. Then she held Mia while I mounted up...and we spent the next two months, twice a week, with ME riding and the trainer helping ME work with Mia on problems. She was the same woman who gave my daughter lessons, BTW. After that, I spent a couple more years riding Mia. Certainly didn't get her perfect. I think I needed room for her to gallop and I didn't HAVE that environment. But her next owner said from the start she was the softest horse he had ever ridden. And with lots of open space for galloping, HE took her further.

I think I've taken Bandit far past where he was when he arrived, so it has been win-win for all four of us! I've also been underwhelmed by the professionals I've met. I've come to believe many horses need a year or two of supportive riding before they are ready to be a trusting team mate. 

And there is this:


> So the hard part of horse training isn't really about the horse at all. *It is about knowing who YOU are, while learning about who the horse is, and figuring out who you need to be to bring the two together in mutual respect and trust.* To teach your horse to stop resisting and be calm, responsive, trusting and brave, you must first acquire those qualities yourself. You can't just appear to be confident and in control. You must let go of your masks and conflicts and fears and simply BE confident and in control. Nor can you apply rules you read in a book - even this book. You have to find the parts of yourself that will tell you at a level below conscious thought what you have to do and how you have to act....I believe that becoming more horselike in our awareness of the world and how we achieve our place in it will make us more complete human beings who work and relate well with others, yet know how to stand our ground. - Chris Irwin, Preface to "Horses Don't Lie"


Good horse training involves training ourselves, using our horses as guides. They teach us the way Tom Roberts said we should teach them: "This will profit you. This will profit you not." If you are willing to listen, horses are willing to talk. And they teach us to teach them in a mutually beneficial training cycle.


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## SueC

Wow, @bsms, that second quote I'd not come across before, but it's excellent. The relationship between a person's psychological baggage, and horse training - good to see it broached!


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## knightrider

> Did that unnamed person end up becoming a moderator by any chance


Nah, @SueC, she's long gone. Haven't heard from her in years.


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## whisperbaby22

When I have pontificated on some of my whacky ideas, I've gotten some negative feedback, too. I will respond if someone asks, but keep more to myself now.


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## gottatrot

John Wayne on the pony is hilarious!

I agree, there are many bad trainers out there. Also, if you have a horse that is difficult, many trainers will just take a pass on the horse. I've had the opportunity to watch quite a few trainers at various barns I've been at. There have been a lot of them that I would never let touch my horse. Others are very good at what they do, but they train for one particular style. Also, not every trainer will start horses, and some will not do anything other than start horses. There is a pair of trainers around here that work together, the one only starts horses, the other only works on horses after they have 60 days under saddle. 

I've also ridden out with a few trainers, and talked to them a lot about their techniques. It's interesting when you are not a client, how they will share things. Also I used to hope that since these were pros, they might have secret answers to my questions that I hadn't been able to find. I remember asking a trainer, "What do you do about separation anxiety?" It was just ride them out, force them to leave the other horse, and try to stay on. Your basic flooding technique. 

A trainer told me he hated Arabs and usually wouldn't take them unless he really needed funds. I've known several trainers that would not take the horses they worked with outside of an arena. So over the years my awe of trainers had diminished quite a bit. The best trainers I've known have been personal friends who did not train professionally and gave remedial horses a new lease on life. When I was younger I knew a couple of kids who trained their own horses to where they were winning shows. 

If we couldn't make mistakes with horses, we would be unable to use and ride them universally across the world. I always cringe when I hear that someone "ruined" a horse. What in the world does that mean? Was Amore ruined because I introduced her to a bit the wrong way and she pulled apart a fence in the process? If you could ruin a horse because of trying things that didn't work, I would have discovered this with Amore and Halla. 

But the only way you can "ruin" a horse is if you destroy them physically, or traumatize them emotionally so badly that they can't get over it. I haven't seen that last one yet, but have only seen that it can take a long time to build up trust.

Consistent, persistent, positive...as @SueC says, those are the keys. That's why some of us very stubborn people are good horse trainers. I've not seen a ruined horse, I've seen challenging ones that required me to learn new things. You don't ruin a horse, you discover that you have to go to plan B or C.

What @bsms says is key:


> I've come to believe many horses need a year or two of supportive riding before they are ready to be a trusting team mate.


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## bsms

gottatrot said:


> ...That's why some of us very stubborn people are good horse trainers. I've not seen a ruined horse, I've seen challenging ones that required me to learn new things. You don't ruin a horse, you discover that you have to go to plan B or C.


 This. Or sometimes, you stick with Plan A, only less so. Plan 1/4 A, then another 1/4 later. But you DO need to be determined. They're your horses, dammit! They are counting on you. So you plug away, shift tactics, research, learn, reach inside you and pull out something you didn't think you could do - and along the way, YOU are changed, too! And THAT is the real beauty of horses. I may still be a jerk, but I'm a better person for having owned Mia and Bandit. Quiet Persistence. As Tom Roberts once put it:

"_This gentle discouragement of “quiet persistence” is something that humans seem to find irresistible. Whenever you are in doubt as to what course to follow, mounted or dismounted, revert to “Quiet Persistence.” Your quiet persistence is the real “That will profit you not.” It discourages the human without punishing him_." OK, that might be a slight paraphrase...


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## SueC

Totally agree with all of the last two posts. 

Here's a thought. I've always excelled academically - dux of middle school, dux of senior school, umpteen school prizes and wins/placings in national competitions for schoolkids in science, geography, spelling, etc. "A"s in all my leaving subjects, Top 0.5% in the state in four of them. 98% in my English Literature exam. Into a science degree on a scholarship at age 16, younger than all my contemporaries, came out with a double major and top graduate. Science research and education most of my life, now farming and writing, after we built our own house that is a total eco-house and uses less than 10% of the energy to run than a standard house. (https://sustainablehouseday.com/house-profile-view/?house_id=38556 has correct technical specifications in the drop-downs but don't bother with the blurb they put in bottom left!)

Is this skiting, or is this stating objectively verifiable facts? It's what's on the official academic paperwork, it's how you'd summarise it from another person's perspective, but God help you if _you_ say it. I've never had a big head about it, in fact been a bit surprised at each major achievement. I didn't aim at the prizes, they just happened as I went along learning and loving the process.

I have this very clear recollection of something... as a new, first-year university student. Someone said, "You're the academic elite, you know!" and I thought about it, realised that according to the numbers that was the case, and said, "Well, then God help the world, because then we really are all stuffed!" As a 16-year-old I couldn't see the magic solutions - well, there aren't any really, but that's another story! :rofl:

You know what I think it is? And I've observed this with all the students I've taught as well who were really outstanding. These people don't generally preen themselves about how much they know and how clever they are. These are the people who realise how much they _don't_ know. These are the people who don't think getting straight "A"s means they are full bottles on knowledge and wisdom; they have this acute awareness of our collective ignorance, instead of thinking humans are so marvellous and that we can blunder on like lemmings because someone else is going to make a bit of technology to save us all from our collective and personal failings.

There is this saying amongst high-achieving women in Australia: _Carry yourself with the confidence of a mediocre white man._ It was coined because in Australia, when you look at it objectively, the people running the show are mostly mediocre, as well as white and male. We've got a huge problem here. Obviously, not every white man is mediocre, we know that! But it's the mediocre ones who mostly end up in power, and they don't have much of a clue, and yet they think they do.

It's so amazing that it's the mediocre people who think they know so much, and how they airily swipe away all the ideas and objections by people who actually have more considered and educated positions and lots of personal and experimental experience as total garbage without even _understanding_ them. They can't even _conceive_ of these ideas, evaluate these ideas, think clearly about them. They wouldn't pass the objective tests.

The people who know a lot, compared to the herd, see the huge amounts they don't know. The people who don't actually know a lot often don't realise they actually don't. I think that's what the saying, "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing!" is getting at.


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## bsms

In many ways, @*SueC* , I have to disagree. I find many serious academics scary, mainly because they DO think they know it all!

"_*I'd rather entrust the government of the United States to the first 400 people listed in the Boston telephone directory 
*_
_*than to the faculty of Harvard University*._" William F. Buckley, Jr.​ 
I have far more confidence in DO-ers than in THINK-ers. My youngest daughter can consistently score in the top 99% in test taking, but at least will cheerfully admit she can't fix a leaky faucet. I have more trust in the judgment of a woman who has run a restaurant successfully than an economist. The "real world" is quite good at knocking someone flat on their back. Sometimes it IS bad luck. But bad ideas will also lead to failure. The academic world is the arena. It can cover a multitude of sins. I'm not sure what "failure" means in the academic world. Not enough published?

As much as I love books, reading books by themselves would really screw me on riding horses. Too many write without any check on reality. You need, according to one respected book, to use the reins like the nozzle on a hose. Your FISTS - because the author says you cannot ride well with reins held by mere fingers! - your FISTS meter the horse's energy. Let the reins go slack and the horse's energy just spills out the front! He can quote the "Great Masters" but he apparently has never watched horses play. Or move without a rider holding them together!

The "20% Rule" is pushed by unthinking academics. And unthinking people blindly trusting unthinking academics. When I read the experimental design USED by those unthinking academics, I concluded they HAD thought, and deliberately structured an experiment to discover what they wanted to believe! Perhaps the most fundamental flaw in their experiment was the idea that if the horse showed any sign of stress - blood markers showing stress, or massage therapists detecting stress - then the horse had been asked to do "do much" and carrying that weight had been abusive. 

Now...as I type, my back is throbbing. It wouldn't take a massage therapist to detect signs of stress in me. The 4 Motrin I took would be a good indicator. Bandit & I had a good ride this morning. Later, as the heat rose, I went for a run. A run where my legs felt like mush before I took my first step. My first step of the next 3 miles. Yeah, I'm TIRED. *And I hope to do it again tomorrow!* It is exercise, and exercise that doesn't leave you at least a little tired isn't going to be very effective at increasing your strength - or at my age, stemming the loss of strength! I'm not arguing for "No pain, no gain!" - and yet I am, within reason. If I never overload my body, it will never have a reason to get stronger.

A GOOD scientist WANTS some failure. A scientific person, not necessarily a trained scientist, attempts to check every theory against reality. I would have LOVED to put some of those "scientists" who discovered that a horse can't carry more than 20% on Mia, along with any weight that would get the load up to 25% or more, and sent them out for a ride. An hour later, when Mia was boiling along at 210+ degrees and refusing to let them dismount and they felt the despair I had often felt - _would I live to get the final 1/4 mile home?_ - I'd come along and ask them if Mia was too weak for their tastes!

Check every theory. If it doesn't match reality, then change your theory. I may think the BHS approach to dismounts is scary as all get out, but if millions have done it without getting hurt, then it is my THEORY that needs adjusting, not how they get off a horse! If 200+ lb guys have ridden 850 lb Arabians for 20-30 miles a day for years, without harming the horse, then it is the 20% Rule that needs to get tossed!

When I looked at steer wrestling the other day, I assumed they HAD to have some incredible accident statistics. HAD TO! They MUST be dying like flies!







Yet the statistics I could find indicate they have an excellent safety record. Ample broken bones, perhaps, but they are not dying from being gored, hung up on their horse, hitting their helmetless heads, etc. It blows a lot of my ideas of good risk management out of the water. Good scientists and good thinkers LOVE finding a disconnect between their ideas and reality. It gives them a reason to rethink their positions and get closer to the ever elusive truth! *When your theory can't explain reality, you are a step closer to the truth. It is wonderful!*

I just see no sign most academically successful people understand how good it feels to discover you are WRONG! 25 years of military experience taught me to be afraid of smart people, or at least, of people who are confidently smart. Few things scare me more than a general who thinks he knows more than the people around him - and so maybe we DO agree. Donald Rumsfeld had ample faults, but I agreed with him here:

"_Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don't know we don't know. And if one looks throughout the history of our country and other free countries, it is the latter category that tend to be the difficult ones_."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_are_known_knowns
​The Wiki article includes this great summary:

A thirteenth-century Persian poet, Ibn Yamin, said there are four types of men: 
​One who knows and knows that he knows... His horse of wisdom will reach the skies.

One who knows, but doesn't know that he knows... He is fast asleep, so you should wake him up!

One who doesn't know, but knows that he doesn't know... His limping mule will eventually get him home.

One who doesn't know and doesn't know that he doesn't know... He will be eternally lost in his hopeless oblivion!​


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## bsms

Just want to add, I'll be very happy if "_[My] limping mule will eventually get [me] home._" 

Not sure I want a horse of wisdom carrying me up into the skies. I've worked for some people with stars on their shoulders who THOUGHT they were on a horse ascending to the heavens, but who looked headed the other way to me! _"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat_".
Give me a limping mule every time! :cheers: 
Bandit is right. I shouldn't go out alone. Need someone with some horse sense to bring me back to safety. Lots of generals could use a stubborn horse. A mule even! Bet General Grant knew.


----------



## SueC

bsms said:


> In many ways, @*SueC* , I have to disagree. I find many serious academics scary, mainly because they DO think they know it all!


:rofl: That was actually part of the point I was trying to make, but it's a complicated business! 

I actually think we agree more than you realise! ;-)

I wasn't talking about serious professional academics, I was talking about people in general. For around 15 years I worked with the broad population, when teaching 12-to-17 year-olds - not a selected group, as I had before, when teaching undergraduates.

I'm a bit written out and fuzzy at the moment, but will just comment that, for example, the really outstanding people at high school graduation actually don't end up in the top university academic positions as much as may be imagined. I agree with you about your perceptions on a lot of academics, and that's why I wasn't interested in academia - its emphasis on extreme specialisation fosters tunnel vision (I'd never enjoy devoting my whole life to investigating the toenails of a rare species of Brazilian skink, for example), and the people who end up in it often engage in all sorts of backstabbing politics. This isn't everyone, obviously - there are lots of clever people, and ethical people, in academia too, people I really admire, but they're not generally running the overall show, and they'll nearly all tell you they are hampered by those who do. (And this isn't just the case in academia.)

What we see in Australia, for example, is girls overall not just equalling, but for various reasons (maturity is one, better work ethic another, plus less overconfident) often outperforming boys in the sciences at school graduation, and now outnumbering boys in taking up science degrees, but when you look at who is in lecturing positions, a disproportionate amount of those are males, even though their gender balance was pretty much equal when they were students themselves. And when you look at who is in the senior positions, it skews more towards males the higher up you go, in this country. Arguments have been made about women taking career breaks to have children, or not wanting to take up these kinds of positions as often, but much of that has been dismissed as major factors in this discrepancy, in the studies that I have had to read on the subject in my professional capacity as a science educator. Also, the figures are significantly more egalitarian in some of the European countries.

I'm actually just bringing up this gender discrepancy as an example to illustrate that it is not simply the brightest who get to the top of these institutions professionally, otherwise the amounts of men and women in them would be close to 50/50.

And taking the boys alone as a subgroup, it is also not the brightest of these that end up in the highest positions at universities etc. More pertinent factors seem to involve social status, connections, being OK to play politics and to do the wrong thing to further your own interests, etc, in this as in many other institutions and bureaucracies.

There also seems to be a mismatch between the aspirations of all-round capable people, and academic specialisation, or other specialisation, or having to do administration instead of the things you are really interested in. Plus the factors previously discussed, and many others!




> "_*I'd rather entrust the government of the United States to the first 400 people listed in the Boston telephone directory
> *_
> _*than to the faculty of Harvard University*._" William F. Buckley, Jr.


Yeah, good point! Harvard and places like that, while undoubtedly producing some really useful research, are also really awful Old Boys' Clubs - and this goes beyond boys. The way places like that are run has little to do with justice and fairness, or with employing talented people to do great things. It is actually more about status and power, unfortunately - but then by the same token, academic institutions don't have the monopoly on those sorts of problems. You can get the same patterns at your local CWA, even.


Management and law degrees in particular, don't get me started. Or economists...​​


> I have far more confidence in DO-ers than in THINK-ers.


 While I like people who do _both_ simultaneously!  Think about stuff, do stuff, think more about the stuff, do more stuff etc etc. _Do_ things in a _thoughtful_ way.

And even in science courses, thinking and doing are supposed to go hand in hand. Learning stuff from books goes alongside long practical laboratory sessions and field investigations. The thinking and doing go hand in hand. It's pretty pointless doing things without thinking about them, or thinking about things without doing anything, both! 




> As much as I love books, reading books by themselves would really screw me on riding horses. Too many write without any check on reality. You need, according to one respected book, to use the reins like the nozzle on a hose. Your FISTS - because the author says you cannot ride well with reins held by mere fingers! - your FISTS meter the horse's energy. Let the reins go slack and the horse's energy just spills out the front! He can quote the "Great Masters" but he apparently has never watched horses play. Or move without a rider holding them together!


A good phrase I heard about this is _paralysis of analysis_.

Another related idea is: _The unexamined life is not worth living. The overexamined life is not being lived. :dance-smiley05:
_





> The "20% Rule" is pushed by unthinking academics. *And unthinking people blindly trusting unthinking academics. *When I read the experimental design USED by those unthinking academics, I concluded they HAD thought, and deliberately structured an experiment to discover what they wanted to believe! Perhaps the most fundamental flaw in their experiment was the idea that if the horse showed any sign of stress - blood markers showing stress, or massage therapists detecting stress - then the horse had been asked to do "do much" and carrying that weight had been abusive.


Yes, exactly! That (highlighted) is exactly what is going on. And that's exactly why I was so very serious about teaching my students to think independently and question everything, even their textbooks, society's authority figures, etc. (And statistics, @*Hondo* ! ;-))

Stress: There's eu-stress and distress. What's up with these people? Didn't do their literature review? Being paid to fabricate certain results? Just lazy?

Here's some "What research reports say - and what it really means." ;-)













> A GOOD scientist WANTS some failure. A scientific person, not necessarily a trained scientist, attempts to check every theory against reality...Check every theory. If it doesn't match reality, then change your theory.


Yes, yes, yes, yes! 



> Good scientists and good thinkers LOVE finding a disconnect between their ideas and reality. It gives them a reason to rethink their positions and get closer to the ever elusive truth! *When your theory can't explain reality, you are a step closer to the truth. It is wonderful!*


Indeed!* 
*



> I just see no sign most academically successful people understand how good it feels to discover you are WRONG!


That's _because_ they are academically successful people! :rofl: Their aim in life isn't to discover the truth, it's mostly more mercenary than that! (And a lot of people with integrity don't stay in such places, they make their own way instead.)

Many of them fall into that supercategory our cattle-farming neighbour calls "_The Shiny Bums_". Noel refers to most of our local "representatives" and council officeholders in this manner. They are people who are invested in maintaining their own social and financial positions. They have shiny bums from sitting in chairs all day. :rofl:



> 25 years of military experience taught me to be afraid *of smart people, or at least, of people who are confidently smart*. Few things scare me more than a general who thinks he knows more than the people around him - and so maybe we DO agree.


Yeah, I think we do. I think it's making that distinction between the two.

A related example is Lizzie Bennet, referring to Darcy and Wickham: _One has all the goodness, the other all the appearance of it! _ 



> A thirteenth-century Persian poet, Ibn Yamin, said there are four types of men:





> One who knows and knows that he knows... His horse of wisdom will reach the skies.
> 
> One who knows, but doesn't know that he knows... He is fast asleep, so you should wake him up!
> 
> One who doesn't know, but knows that he doesn't know... His limping mule will eventually get him home.
> 
> One who doesn't know and doesn't know that he doesn't know... He will be eternally lost in his hopeless oblivion!​



I suggest an improved category of person to add to this:

_*One who knows, but knows that there are many things he or she doesn't know as well, and continues to self-educate; and who knows that an established idea is not necessarily truth.*_


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## knightrider

[quoteIt's so amazing that it's the mediocre people who think they know so much, and how they airily swipe away all the ideas and objections by people who actually have more considered and educated positions and lots of personal and experimental experience as total garbage without even understanding them. They can't even conceive of these ideas, evaluate these ideas, think clearly about them. They wouldn't pass the objective tests.

The people who know a lot, compared to the herd, see the huge amounts they don't know. The people who don't actually know a lot often don't realise they actually don't. I think that's what the saying, "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing!" is getting at. 
][/quote]

At the risk of stepping on bsms's journal (sorry), THIS is going on in the leadership of our country. Hope I am not stepping on your toes, bsms. I don't normally write about political stuff, but this seems so obvious to me . . . and so many people insist the emperor is really wearing clothes!

Now . . . back to horses. Knightrider, get off your soapbox.


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## bsms

HF used to have a political subforum. It went away since politics can divide people. I think it was a good decision.


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## SueC

Dear @knightrider, you may be heartened to know that someone is currently knitting me a multicoloured beanie specifically for wearing on my soapbox! (For my letter-writing elsewhere. ;-)) From one knitting soapbox frequenter to another, so to speak. Got a multicoloured beanie yet? ;-)

It's the same in Australia and has been for many years.

Good thing we have horses in both countries.

:cowboy:

I also have therapeutic fantasies about making a moat around our farm and peopling it with hungry piranhas.


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## gottatrot

As someone said, it's the ability to self-educate that is so important.

I'm on both sides, seeing the arrogant self-importance and the meaninglessness that goes along with pure academics, and also loving to learn and be educated. The beautiful thing is that no one can stop us from educating ourselves. 

It's interesting @SueC, how you are objectively smart and also know how to learn, but small-minded people will view it negatively either way; if you don't point out your ability and why your opinion might matter, or if you do. 

Personally, I hate to waste time. The academics around here are pushing for all nurses to have bachelor's degrees. I love to learn, but some idiots decided what the curriculum should be, and beyond the two year degree, there is nothing useful taught. Also there is no wage increase either way. What they offer is a lot of paper writing on stupid subjects, and you might notice that writing practice is not something I lack. 

The focus is on preparing for management, but some of us are only interested in clinical practice, and what I constantly educate myself in is pharmacology, pathophysiology, and understanding test results, the healing processes as described in @SueC's journal, etc. There is no incentive for me to take my riding and horse education time and use it up writing papers on how the local food bank works. If they could offer me some real education that would help me save lives, I would love it.

It's rather a joke, because everyone passes, and coworkers are always working on their homework at work, and I'm not sure how they got through at the more basic levels, because they need a great deal of help to just arrange ideas and grammar so it makes slight sense. "Would you just look at this," has meant my brain has composed many a paper and project so I know exactly how elementary it all is, basically just a lot of busy work that ends in a degree. A degree that does not offer any more money unless you go into management, and I earn more already than my sister with her Master's degree.

As with horses, it's what they can't spoon feed you that is important. Can you remain calm and keep thinking? Can you see the big picture? Can you learn from past mistakes? Do you ask why, why, why all the time? 

The other day the Master's degree RN put the patient on a breathing machine, and I had the patient just a few hours earlier. My brain did not accept what I saw: someone with a normal respiratory rate, deep and effective breaths, good color, no distress - immediately I wanted to know why? What changed? I asked if there was lung congestion, a choking episode, etc. No, it was based on a single number on a machine. 

A test had been done, but I took the machine off without seeing the results, and demonstrated that I could make that number perfect just by a little manipulation of equipment. Then the test results showed the patient had definitely never needed the breathing machine. The doctor and respiratory therapist backpedaled quickly. But the nurse never understood! Degrees do not help people learn to think. 

It is so much the same with horses. Experiences can be meaningless. Years of lessons and riding can happen without a person ever learning to see the horse, or to think critically about training and riding. I tend not to be impressed with education, show success, or numbers of followers a person has. What impresses me is people who show evidence of real learning, and can help me learn too.

I think @bsms said, how exciting it can be to discover you are wrong about something. Then you have an opportunity to really learn! I appreciate very much this setting where one person can speak about a subject, and someone else can debate it, which helps us all think about various aspects.


----------



## SueC

gottatrot said:


> As someone said, it's the ability to self-educate that is so important.
> 
> I'm on both sides, seeing the arrogant self-importance and the meaninglessness that goes along with pure academics, and also loving to learn and be educated. The beautiful thing is that no one can stop us from educating ourselves.


 

Some lovely quotes from Frank McCourt's _Angela's Ashes_:



_He says, you have to study and learn so that you can make up your own mind about history and everything else but you can’t make up an empty mind. Stock your mind, stock your mind. You might be poor, your shoes might be broken, but your mind is a palace._


_It’s lovely to know that the world can’t interfere with the inside of your head._


_I know that big people don't like questions from children. They can ask all the questions they like, How's school? Are you a good boy? Did you say your prayers? but if you ask them did they say their prayers you might be hit on the head._
and...

_Sing your song. Dance your dance. Tell your tale._




> It's interesting @*SueC* , how you are objectively smart and also know how to learn, but small-minded people will view it negatively either way; if you don't point out your ability and why your opinion might matter, or if you do.


Yes, that's exactly it, in a nutshell - in the open community, as opposed to in a professional job. In the latter, everyone in management has seen your CV and everyone else sees your work and your results, and so they generally afford you a basic level of respect that you have earnt, both in the past and with your present work. But if you're somewhere unconnected with your work, like in a farming community you've moved into or on a forum like this, people often wonder why you should be allowed an opinion, but will offer you theirs, and as the superior opinion, of course.

This is a characteristic I see commonly in average or below-average students in the classroom - the less they know, the more some of them think they know, and the more certain they are of their views. It's very black and white, versus shades of grey, epistemiology etc etc. Of course, you also get some people with above average grades who actually are recall type students rather than conceptual processors, and if they choose the right kind of courses (recall courses like history, economics, anatomy) they can get straight As, and feel much smarter than they are - they're good at regurgitating from memory, but not necessarily at thinking and conceptualising and analysing etc. But they often won't see their weaknesses. People like that become those thoughtless academics, and their false certainty is sort of alpha and helps them climb their career ladder.

The really outstanding school leavers do very well in both recall and conceptual work across multiple subject areas, and I've never met one who's not acutely aware of their own limitations, and of human limitations in general, to understanding the world. They tend to under-estimate rather than over-estimate themselves, which is to an extent useful for learning, but also means the people with the false certainty will tend to rise to higher positions academically - and those really outstanding students generally aren't attracted to power and don't like playing the kind of games people play to jockey for position.

That was also true for me, thinking about it, not just the really top, bright, capable students I taught. Because we're the same sort of animal.

Getting back to public perceptions you were discussing - damned if you do, damned if you don't tell - for many people you're either an ignoramus or a skiter, depending on whether you don't reveal or do reveal your credentials... and neither description is accurate.

The people in the power hierarchies have their credentials publicly paraded for them and all sorts of people blowing trumpets. So we can get back to that Elizabeth Bennett type comment about one person having all the goodness and the other all the appearance of it! ;-)

Ideally we'd all assess people on their own merits! ;-) I like to think I do, but you know what it's like to be human and fallible...:music019: But on that sort of assessment, I love love love this particular discussion group (on this group of journals), for reasons mentioned before, and not because I've seen your CVs! ;-)

It's pretty clear though that in the mainstream Australian and American cultures, people aren't generally assessed on their intellectual, practical and ethical merits (i.e. your ability to _think _and to _learn_, and to _do_ things well, and your treatment of others and the world), but more on things like their conformity to fashion, accepted world views, not rocking the boat, and their status, power, money, etc.

I think it's worth keeping that in mind, when others are judging us - and when we are assessing them as people also.




> Personally, I hate to waste time. The academics around here are pushing for all nurses to have bachelor's degrees. I love to learn, but some idiots decided what the curriculum should be, and beyond the two year degree, there is nothing useful taught.


This is the outcome of managerialism. It's all sizzle, no steak - all glitter, no substance - and all the appearance of doing something useful, while doing the opposite. It's exactly the same story in education in many countries. I've never been to an inservice that taught me anything - total waste of time. It's either a useless re-hashing of what you already did at university, or some fashionable thing that's not been reality tested and you can instantly see a number of major problems with it, or useless busy-work. And ten years later, all the things you predicted if that process was adopted have happened, and they stop using it and implement some other thing that in ten years' time will come to the same end. No commonsense, no thorough careful thinking, and wasting so much time and money.

It's good after an inservice course to go read some _Ecclesiastes_. ;-)

_All is vanity_ etc etc.

In Finland, they have an excellent education system - it's controlled by the teachers themselves individually, not by a bureaucracy - and to be a teacher, you have to score as well as if you wanted to be a doctor or lawyer, because Finnish people think teaching children is incredibly important. The lack of managerialism allows these creative and educated people to go about their work educating students largely unhampered by politicians and Bachelors of Management (whatever that confers, and I don't think it's much that's useful).

Doctors in Australia now spend more time filling out forms than seeing patients. The bureaucracy requires it of them... :icon_rolleyes:




> Also there is no wage increase either way. What they offer is a lot of paper writing on stupid subjects, and you might notice that writing practice is not something I lack.


:rofl:

Hypergraphia rules, OK! :thumbsup: :clap: :cheers:




> The focus is on preparing for management, but some of us are only interested in clinical practice, and what I constantly educate myself in is pharmacology, pathophysiology, and understanding test results, the healing processes as described in @*SueC* 's journal, etc. There is no incentive for me to take my riding and horse education time and use it up writing papers on how the local food bank works. If they could offer me some real education that would help me save lives, I would love it.


Same story in so many different places!

You might really enjoy this Australian book, it's so cathartic. It won't change anything, but it will make you laugh, and feel that satisfaction one feels when someone put something we've all felt in the ether into actual words...

https://www.penguin.com.au/books/death-sentence-9780143790983




> As with horses, it's what they can't spoon feed you that is important. Can you remain calm and keep thinking? Can you see the big picture? Can you learn from past mistakes? Do you ask why, why, why all the time?


Yep...




> Degrees do not help people learn to think.


Correct. A lot of them have useless curriculum. But at the high school leaving end, where the education is necessarily broader than in the specialised degrees that follow, you get a good picture of students' abilities as thinkers, doers, and good community members. And from thereon in a disconnect begins, where that won't correlate nicely with what happens next.




> It is so much the same with horses. Experiences can be meaningless. Years of lessons and riding can happen without a person ever learning to see the horse, or to think critically about training and riding. I tend not to be impressed with education, show success, or numbers of followers a person has. What impresses me is people who show evidence of real learning, and can help me learn too.


That's really astute.

It's really nice to be having these little discussions! :happydance:

Happy riding, _y'all_! ;-)

:cowboy:


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## Knave

I love this discussion. Little girl tested as high as one could coming into the school system. 99% in all subjects in her national comparison. She taught herself to read before preschool and to multiply and divide in kindergarten. She complained that she wasn’t getting any work. I went to the school and we discussed moving her up.

Her teacher was an elderly woman. I liked her. She said the girl could easily move up two grades, but that her social skills lacked and that moving up a child was never a good thing. Okay. We made a plan for her to go along until jr high where she could begin high school courses and then take many college courses in her high school years.

She quickly learned to not ask questions of adults, and sadly lost much respect for them. She quit trying at one point. She simply stopped doing much of her work in the second grade. I told her to bring home As. So, she counted her percentage points and did exactly enough to bring him 90%s in all of her courses. 

Now that she is up to the sixth grade they are teaching things she did not already know, and they split her group because there are three very high achievers. She was shocked to struggle with a couple concepts, and it took her about a half a year to learn to learn again. 

Anyways, I only add her background to speak about not asking questions. I see her struggle with bowing to authority. She is more confident than I. When we were at the first doctor who looked at her toe and said he would get wart cream she talked down to him “I do not have a wart. I have a tumor.” You could hear her eyes rolling although she managed to not do such a thing. As a child you are forced to follow other people’s plans for you if not defended by another with power (I did not allow him to put wart cream on it and asked him to actually look at the X-rays, to which he came back and agreed with the not a wart diagnosis). In the car on the way home she said “Do I really have to get surgery done by him? I don’t really trust him. He doesn’t look at people’s X-rays even!” 

She holds her tongue and does what she must. It is a picture of others catering to power.


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## SueC

It's a fabulous thing that she's got you, @Knave. There are a lot of difficulties growing up different, and growing up ultra-bright, and people can forget that these are still children who need love as much as any child does - and quite a few people (young and older) will be hostile to these children along the road. You come across as a really thinking, caring Mama Bear for your little girl, and this makes me very happy, because it is not always so, not for some of the children I taught, and not for me when I was growing up either. My mother resented the fact that I was different - she would have loved a Miss Average in Barbie doll clothes and pink pointy shoes. I was not that child - I was up in trees and on horses and milking cows in the local dairy and rolling in mud and had my nose in books and won Science and language prizes etc. I remember her telling me rather sneerily that it was unnatural for girls to be good at maths and science, that these were boys' specialties. My mother fed me and sheltered me under a roof - but she didn't mother me, and we didn't have meaningful conversations about our days, and she never really wanted to know me, I wasn't her type. And your little girl isn't going to grow up with that kind of cold and loneliness and thinking in her childhood that she has to look out for herself because nobody else is going to protect her, and feeling like she has some sort of leprosy for being bright and a bit different. I think that's so great.


----------



## Knave

I am sorry @SueC that you didn’t have any of that. It is hard to be a child for whom no one has their side. 

My littlest girl answered me the other day, after making me read Matilda, which I was thinking maybe was her confronting me, and I asked if she felt that way about me. She said that no, I was one of those parents who would believe my child was brilliant even if they had flies for brains. Hahahahahaha. I was so happy she felt that way. I think all children should feel that someone loves them.

My big girl is awesome too. She is very successful in her school career; she even was the president of her elementary student council! She however doesn’t have it as easily as her sister does in the school environment. She works very hard for everything she does and I tell her that is just as impressive. I am so proud to see her determination and work ethic.


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## SueC

They both sound great. 

And I now have all the things I was missing as a child.


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## bsms

gottatrot said:


> ...Personally, I hate to waste time. The academics around here are pushing for all nurses to have bachelor's degrees. I love to learn, but some idiots decided what the curriculum should be, and beyond the two year degree, there is nothing useful taught. Also there is no wage increase either way. What they offer is a lot of paper writing on stupid subjects...


I'm going to need some time to digest a few posts, but I'll comment on this now. My wife got her BSN. She agrees it was totally worthless as anything other than a resume-filler. English is her second language...maybe third, actually...so I edited her papers and reviewed some of the published papers in advance so she wouldn't have to wade thru total nonsense. I was appalled at the quality of thinking and analysis in the published papers, many of which weren't about nursing anyways. My wife felt she needed the BSN to keep up with others, then quit her job at the hospital a few months after getting it. 

She now works home health care. I'm definitely a capitalist, but the profit motive twists medicine in some strange ways. Doctors get upset when she calls to check on medications, but she finds patients who have 2-3 identical prescriptions from different doctors. And they are taking them! They don't know any better. 

I'll have some pre-cancerous growths removed tomorrow. The doctor - who I like - says his greatest frustration is how little time he gets to spend with any patient. He joked that patients will soon be put on conveyor belts, and he'll stand in place and treat them for 15 seconds as they travel past his station. The pity is, neither of us is sure it is entirely a joke...

In the military, I made major (O-4) without getting a masters degree. When I came up for Lt Col (O-5), I was told I would either get one or not be promoted. End of discussion. They wanted to promote me based on my work but I couldn't pass the first gate without a masters. My boss recommended a place that was one step above a diploma mill. For 6 months, every spare minute went into writing papers. To give the school credit, I think we covered the same material covered by "real" colleges. In 5 months, I had my MBA - totally worthless - and 2 months later, I was promoted.

My Dad made Colonel (O-6) with a high school diploma. Even in the late 60s, that was very rare. My Mom was a farm girl whose graduating HS class had 12 people. When my parents went to formal dinners, the other guests made it clear they were just a couple of hicks getting by on my Dad being an outstanding pilot with an excellent combat record - stuff you'd THINK would be important to the military! Every once in a while they'd look at some State Dept type and say, "_You mean, you AREN'T in a bowling league? I think we've got an opening on our team..._" - and then laugh afterward at the look of horror on the guy's face!

Having a horse tell you, "_Sorry. You are picking the wrong answer. This will profit you not. Please try again. And yes, I'll wait until you get it right._" is the sort of humbling experience so many "achievers" need. When your horse turns her/his head and looks back at you with that "*How long, O Lord, must I suffer this fool*" look, it is priceless!

Of course, the ones who need that experience the most are the ones who wouldn't recognize it when it happens.


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## bsms

One quick note for @*SueC* . The best advice I've had in writing - which I ignore on forums because I type as I think and don't edit - came from an Australian book on animal mimicry. I think it was published in the 50s. The preface had this gem: 

"*Good writing should be clear, concise and euphonious - in that order.*"​
Darn hard to do! But a good 11 word definition of good writing. 

When I write seriously, I do draft after draft. Is it clear? Have I communicated anything? Can I cut something out and still communicate it? And if I've done those, can I add icing to the cake and make it flow? HARD WORK!
​


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## bsms

Knave said:


> ...It is a picture of others catering to power.


 Too often, it is a picture of horses.

A couple of nights ago, I looked out back and thought about feeding the horses dinner. As I watched, Bandit leaned down, grabbed one of the corral panels with his mouth, lifted up - hard to do, they are heavy - and shook it until one end popped free. Then he strolled out of the corral!

I ran out before Trooper could follow. Fixed the corral. Got a halter. By the time my wife joined me, I had haltered Bandit. He made no attempt to run away. Led him back into the corral. My wife, who likes horses OK but rarely rides, started cleaning the corrals while I got their hay. Bandit stood by his feed bucket and waited. Then I helped scoop poop.

My wife doesn't normally indulge her imagination around horses. So it was interesting when she told me, "_Bandit keeps looking over at you, and I think he's smirking!_" I glanced over and he immediately buried his face in the bucket of hay. But my wife added, "_I'm serious. I think he's laughing!_"

The scientists would say she is wrong. I've been around Bandit for over 3 years, and I'm not so sure. When the corral was clean, I went around with baling twine and tied all the panels together. My wife said, "_It's only a matter of time..._"

My youngest, years ago, riding Lilly while Mia & I discusses her position. Lilly was a great Arabian mare. I'd have kept her and dumped Trooper, but Trooper & I have never been pals. Added the picture just to show the sort of corral panels we use:


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## Knave

That is a good comparison @bsms. I’d bet he found the humor in it. My Bones thinks he’s so funny! He makes me laugh all of the time. I’m not sure I was ever around a horse with a sense of humor before, but I don’t doubt it now.


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## SueC

bsms said:


> One quick note for @*SueC* . The best advice I've had in writing - which I ignore on forums because I type as I think and don't edit - came from an Australian book on animal mimicry. I think it was published in the 50s. The preface had this gem:
> 
> "*Good writing should be clear, concise and euphonious - in that order.*"​
> Darn hard to do! But a good 11 word definition of good writing.
> 
> When I write seriously, I do draft after draft. Is it clear? Have I communicated anything? Can I cut something out and still communicate it? And if I've done those, can I add icing to the cake and make it flow? HARD WORK!
> ​



Brett recently cited to me, "I am sorry I wrote you a long letter, I didn't have time to write you a short one!"

:rofl:


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## gottatrot

Knave said:


> That is a good comparison @bsms. I’d bet he found the humor in it. My Bones thinks he’s so funny! He makes me laugh all of the time. I’m not sure I was ever around a horse with a sense of humor before, but I don’t doubt it now.


Someone at work asked me how I liked my new horse. I said, "I love him, he's so funny." 
Being a non-horse person, she asked, "What do you mean by funny?" 

I said, "He makes me laugh." But then thinking about it, I realized I meant he has a sense of comedy. It's not that he just makes me laugh, but he does things that are funny, even to other horses. He's like the class clown. 

I've seen him bump into a submissive horse on purpose, then give him a warning, like "how dare you bump into me," and then I swear laughing when the horse backs away all nervous. It doesn't seem like a dominance game, more like a joke. Especially because when the other horse stops and looks confused, Hero does this goofy look with head cocked, ears askew and twisted lower lip, like "just kidding." He does very exaggerated body language sometimes, when playing, like someone doing slapstick to illustrate it is comedy.


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## SueC

This is off topic, sorry, but talking of humour, have you ever looked at music jokes? They are soooo corrosive and mean, and yet strangely funny for it.

Such as:

How do you get a trombonist off your front porch? - Pay him for the pizza.

What time is it when your drummer decides to write a song? - Time to get a new drummer.

What's the difference a guitarist and a large pizza? - The large pizza can feed a family of four.

What's the difference between a tuba and a vacuum cleaner? - You have to plug one of them in before it sucks.


More here:

Musician Jokes

Brett and I once spent over an hour crying tears of laughter reading through the whole lot...


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## Knave

@gottatrot have you ever watched Peanuts? Do you remember when Charlie Brown said “That’s it!” really loudly? That’s what I would do. 

Bones is just like that! He over expresses himself to show he’s playing. He is super funny.


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## thecolorcoal

@SueC omg i DIED reading those jokes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## bsms

I'm glad I'm not the only one. A sense of humor isn't something one often finds mentioned in the same paragraph as horses. My DIL said Bandit was like a clown, trying to stir up just enough trouble to get everyone laughing. I'm not sure humor is the best word. I am certain horses have very strong egos, and what I call humor may just be, "_I got everyone to pay attention to me!"_ And like with many class clowns, it doesn't REALLY need to be funny. It is enough for Bandit if the old guy just shouts, "_Oh.My.GAWD! *BANDIT!*_" It sometimes seems like this:


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## SueC

thecolorcoal said:


> @*SueC* omg i DIED reading those jokes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Us too. We nearly died laughing the first time we read them, last year. And it's such a long list, we had serious trouble getting enough oxygen.

Even looking at them again last night before posting them for someone, we just cried with amusement. We've never seen funnier jokes... I think because they are so outrageous. Because with some of them you sort of double take, _What???_ And only then do you see the assumed mindset behind it, which is so acid and disparaging. So in part we are laughing at that mindset. :rofl: And we're reading down the list and thinking it can't get any more outrageous, but then it does...

We noticed they don't have one of our favourites on this list though.

What's the difference between a trampoline and an accordion? - You take off your shoes before jumping on the trampoline.

Or this one.

What 's the difference between a viola and a violin? - The viola takes longer to burn.


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## SueC

Animals and humour: I like to play silly games with my dog, who also likes silly games. 



She lies on her back and wiggles and makes growly noises, and I'll growl back at her and tickle her tummy, play upside-down tug of war etc. Once I had a momentary inspiration, and while on the floor with the wiggling upside-down dog, I grabbed her paw while she was looking, held it in front of my mouth with a pause, and then mock-bit at it, with a _chrrrr!_ sound effect, while she looked at me with this disbelief. And that really set her off! She wiggled and made growly noises at three times the speed as before and soon got up and ran growly laps around the house - ever seen a dog do that? They kind of go crackerdog - _rrrrrr, rrrrrr, rrrrrr, rrrrrr_ with each breath and running maniacal ellipses - occasionally stopping and jumping down on their front legs with that "let's play" gesture and then growling and running ellipses all over again... A dog I knew when I was a kid did those crackerdog ellipses too...


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## Knave

Hahahahaha @SueC that is how my little dog is too! Hobo is his name. He loves to play like that, and if I go after his feet he gets so wound and takes frog and runs and runs around the house. Most of the time he is more serious though. Silly Ozzy thinks he’s funny, which he’s not, but besides the point,  he runs into the house and steals frog and tries to run out before anyone can take it back.


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## SueC

Miss Upside-Down Wiggle Dog:





I was trying to read.

Totally crazy animal. Probably takes after its monkey and vice versa. Positive feedback loop of craziness.




And the horse too.

At wash time, I let him hold the sponge when I finish using it on his head. This is him saying, "_Gimme the sponge! Gimme the sponge!_" :rofl:


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## SueC

Knave said:


> Hahahahaha @*SueC* that is how my little dog is too! Hobo is his name. He loves to play like that, and if I go after his feet he gets so wound and takes frog and runs and runs around the house. Most of the time he is more serious though. Silly Ozzy thinks he’s funny, which he’s not, but besides the point,  he runs into the house and steals frog and tries to run out before anyone can take it back.


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

It's so funny what they do, and it's so funny how they can be wound up!

@*bsms* , tell us about your dogs. Do you like winding them up, and if so, what's the best way to do it? Do your dogs go crackerdog?


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## bsms

Nope. My dogs are mostly sane. They like it when I go throw them balls in the little arena. The balls usually go past the arena's edge. The Border Collie stops at the edge and the White GSD gets the ball. The Border Collie has no interest in the ball, per se, only in blocking the GSD. His 50 lbs against the younger dog's 110 lbs doesn't block much, but he tries. Then they run back together. A half dozen throws in 100 deg heat and they are ready to come in. I don't think it is the heat of the air, but how hot the dirt gets. Not as hot as pavement but still hotter than they like. I'm wondering if that hasn't been why Bandit has been splashing water - to cool the ground.

It is fun watching them, though. They often act like one dog in two bodies. They are the most 'in synch' dogs I've owned. I don't think I've ever seen one act upset with the other. Never mad. Never put out. Never offended.


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## bsms

BTW - It was an abnormally hot 105 when I went jogging today. I have to stick to the streets because my left foot still can't handle hitting a rock. Got 22 minutes in and my feet were ROASTING when I got home. It isn't the temperature that beats you down here, but the intensity of the sunlight and how hot the ground gets under the sun's glare.

Our normal summertime highs run in the high 90s. Sometimes just over 100. Didn't get a ride in because I had to go to town this morning and got back just before I ran. No way I'm making my horse work in that heat.


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## SueC

Well, at least now you know someone else with a dodgy left foot! ;-) I'm not quite sure how long it's going to take before I can run on it again but I'm sure I'll have to avoid hitting rocks with it for a while too!

On the plus side, Brett just messaged me from his work to say, "They have your leg at the Post Office." :rofl:

So hopefully I can try it out this afternoon. Reviews will eventually be on my journal. Oh and I finished my manuscript, so today I can work on my "carrot" and get back to translating the second part of the Reken Riding School thing - alternative approaches - this time a really fascinating piece where Ursula Bruns (who died recently) tells her own story and philosophy as a rider. I think you, and this little journalling group, will find you have much in common with her outlook. It's got photos too!

Your summer sounds like ours...


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## bsms

Dang! I don't even keep up with my own journal sometimes!








​ 

"Barbara Birley, curator at Vindolanda, near Hexham, in Northumberland, said it was "incredibly rare" to find a full set of four iron hipposandals. She said the hoof protectors were so well preserved that their tread to stop horses slipping was clearly visible."

Short article, but interesting. Roman Renegades!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-45034623


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## Chevaux

That is interesting. I can’t figure out how they are worn though — are they slipped on the hoof and then strapped in place? I can’t believe that is a very stable method but when in Rome, I guess....


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## bsms

I did some reading. There is debate on their use with riding animals. They may have been used only on pack animals. They were tied on using straps. I'm assuming the tall part was the front...but this person did some research for a story and concluded otherwise:









Horse Sandals and the 4th Century BC | J.M. Ney-Grimm​ 
Another person envisaged this:









https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Hors...origin,_history,_uses,_and_abuses/Chapter_VII​ 
Doesn't seem like anyone knows how or even IF they were used.


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## SueC

Well, we can certainly rely on you to come up with some really interesting topics that we've not seen before! :clap: Very nice!


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## SueC

...Brett played me this today and I think in view of recent discussions re academia in various places, you will appreciate it! :rofl:


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## bsms

Knave said:


> bsms, I think that as you gain confidence, and him too, you will enjoy alone rides just as much. I like both. When I am alone I watch the birds and the land and I can just breathe.


You motivated me enough to take Bandit out solo today - while I'm home alone with no backup! I walked Bandit on a lead thru the houses until we got to the desert, then mounted up. To be honest, he was calmer than I was. I don't think he saw much reason to be out but he accepted it. Of course, I stayed in an area he's been about a million times, so not really much more adventurous than staying in the arena.

At the turnaround point - which I needed more than Bandit - I dismounted and dropped my stirrups a hole. I was too tense and couldn't stop bracing, so I got them adjusted long enough that bracing wasn't possible. That also sucks my seat further forward, which put me more aligned with his balance. Because of ME, we only spent 30-40 minutes in the desert. The last half, I relaxed enough to drop my right hand along my thigh. Bandit was bitless because I really feel he THINKS better without a bit. He stays connected to me better that way.

He offered a trot twice with a little nervousness, probably picked up from me. I gave him more slack and he quickly decided that if he was free to go faster, he might as well relax. Tom Roberts would have approved.

Not sure I enjoyed it, but I think I could if I got used to it. That, and we need to ride out further. :think:

I led him on the pavement for the last 5 minutes coming home. He still has front shoes - for another week - and he is a little awkward on pavement. They'll come off in 6 days. But leading him thru the neighborhood may be a good idea regardless. It has always been where he and Mia get the most nervous. If walking him out makes him start the desert riding calmer, then maybe it is worth it.


----------



## Knave

Yay! I am proud of you @bsms! When I was first starting Bones he was a hotter horse, and one day I decided that was it, I was going to find a way out of my comfort zone every day. Soon I could take him anywhere and I was confident as was he. Our comfort zone continuously got bigger. 

Now, like I said, I enjoy alone rides as much as together rides if not more depending on my company. I get to daydream or really enjoy the setting and Bones is so expressive that it is enough for us to just be together. I am a bit socially awkward, so it is nice to just be sometimes. I rarely feel lonely with Bones. He is different than most.

Yesterday I decided we needed another something different. I took him through all the heavy equipment and found my husband working in the shop. It isn’t far, only like 1/2 a mile away from my house, but it was a fun ride anyways. I let Bones go inside too! He’s always wanted to. Lol


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## Dragoon

Bones didn't act scared of any of that stuff?

My gelding gets high headed and snorty if he sees a new chair in the arena. And I swear I heard him gasp when we got close enough to see the blue kiddie pool someone left near the poles. It got the evil eye for several trips by it...

Maybe Bandit is reacting to the smell of human neighbourhoods. I don't see how the outline of a garbage can differs wildly from some of the weird foliage in bsms' pictures...and those spiky plants are known to cause hurt. Garbage cans, not so much.


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## Knave

No he wasn’t scared @Dragoon. He loves stuff. I thought he’d get scared when husband used the air compressor or when he got the weed eater working, but no, he wasn’t scared of any of it.

He’s an oddity. Lol. Unlike your gelding, he loves chairs. I am not sure what he wants to do so badly with them, but I’m always having to pull him away from them so he doesn’t ruin one. He thinks they are pretty cool though. Hence why I was so shell shocked that he panicked in town. It isn’t his nature. I took him to town once the year before. He was untying caution tape and trying to visit the people in the ambulance. I don’t know what happened this time. That’s why husband was teasing about wires crossing.

He gets scared sometimes of course, but it’s just over a different kind of thing. If the brush is really thick or I’m up high in the mountains and the trees are thick he gets very spooky. I think he’s a bit claustrophobic. Well, truly I think he’s a lot claustrophobic.

When husband and I were first married we worked at this ranch. Some of the places the cows ran were on a river. It was really cool. Swimming the river and calves getting swept away in the currents and roped and toed to safety... I digress, but there were willows on the river. You couldn’t see through them but you had to ride through them. Whipped by little branches you made your way through. I know I couldn’t do that on Bones. No way would he go through them.


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## Dragoon

OK, so Bones likes human stuff and gets spooked in nature, and Bandit likes nature stuff and gets spooked in urban areas. These horses need to be BFFs. Give each other support when needed. Bones is cray cray and Bandit sane and cynical. The Equine Odd Couple!

Very funny about untying caution tape to visit the people in the ambulance! 
But that is seriously not normal...hahahahaha...


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## Knave

Hahahahaha @Dragoon! They could be the equine odd couple. I love it.


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## SueC

Knave said:


> He’s an oddity. Lol. Unlike your gelding, he loves chairs. I am not sure what he wants to do so badly with them, but I’m always having to pull him away from them so he doesn’t ruin one. He thinks they are pretty cool though.


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Your horse! :clap: :cowboy:


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## bsms

The bad news? Trooper's feet SUCK. We've had a lot of rain lately - badly needed rain. This spring we went 150 days with only 0.01 inch of rain. But the horses have been in mud. I don't ride Trooper and normally the other people let me know. But Trooper just hasn't been ridden much. So my youngest had me take a look after riding today, and YUCK! Happily, the farrier will be out Monday or Tuesday.

I've also told my daughter she needs to walk Trooper 2 laps around the block every day. That is 1.5 miles on pavement. Walking on asphalt does good things to horse's feet. At least when done all at a walk.

Besides, my youngest needs the exercise. She's going to go into the military. She spent two years in the local community college but admitted she had no idea what she wanted to do. So...she's enlisted in the Air Force. She maxed out the ASVAB and scored very high on the language aptitude test. She had been interested in becoming a linguist. Turns out the USAF is also short on linguists, so her desires and the military's need are meshing nicely.

"_Courses are taught six hours per day, five days a week, with the exception of federal holidays and training holidays. The duration of courses range between 26 and 64 weeks, depending on the difficulty of the language._" - Defense Language Institute

It's at Monterey, California:








​ 
No dates set until her security check is done. No idea how long that will take. Then she'll be scheduled for boot camp based on what language she'll get and when its class starts. In the meantime...she can pass standardized tests with ease, but needs work getting into shape. Walking and jogging with Trooper would be good for them both. I'm more concerned with her passing boot camp than any tests...

With all three horses out today...Trooper and Cowboy felt competitive. Not Bandit. Bandit accepts he is totally responsible for the safe patrol through hostile territory and doesn't need to compete. But the other two were work for their riders. Heard a lot of "_Hey, we're NOT doing that!_" from behind me.

Since everyone was out, I reverted to my leather saddle:








​ 
Bandit was in the Dr Cook's, although I was walking him here:








​ 
An imperfect selfie, 3 minutes from home with the other two no longer in competition mode. You can also see how slender Bandit is:









​Blue skies were nice, but at least we've established that Bandit - having been free-roaming on the Navajo Nation - knows mud puddles are for drinking and that Mia's much-dreaded "Puddle Sharks" don't exist. He also knows to be careful on mud. I used slanted stirrups - trying them again today - but need to ditch them. Both knees and ankles were sore at the end of an hour's ride.​


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## bsms

There is a thread here I briefly commented on:

https://www.horseforum.com/dressage/upside-down-neck-need-opinions-793213/

My comment was in regard to (various posters, all combined, because it is the IDEAS I wish to address, not the individuals making them):

"_A lot of endurance horses tend to travel with their heads/noses up and hollowed backs...A upside down necked horse even loose is going to move in a restricted way and hollowed back...as someone who would like to do endurance in a few years isn't riding hollow like that bad? Over such a distance?....I see it as a major evasion of the bit. I don't know why so many seem to travel inverted like that._"

For examples, the following pictures were posted - as hollow, inverted horses evading the bit:








​ 







​ 







​ 







​ 
Now, I really wanted to reply. But the thread would not be helped if I pulled it off its topic, and the OP ( @Fimargue )has a perfectly reasonable desire for a horse who would move in a more dressage like fashion - just as some horses are better built for cutting or barrel racing or reining, others are better built for dressage. So why not buy a horse whose build matches your goals? TOTALLY REASONABLE! And discussing movement theory on that thread would not be helpful. So I'll do it here:









​ This is OFTEN Bandit. The horse is intensely focusing on something ahead. The ears, the eyes, the way he/she carries himself - that shouts "_Something ahead! Rider take a look!_" The rider seems to be noticing something too. The horse is in a Dr Cook's or similar bitless bridle.

Now...is the horse "inverted"? As in, "This is harmful to the horse's back" inversion, since ALL HORSES BACKS are inverted when ridden. The biggest difference between that horse and Bandit is Bandit would also slow down while alerting me. There is some increase in back tension because the horse is getting ready to take evasive action - if needed. But it is NOT braced, rigid or hard to ride. Once one accepts that all horses invert their backs (sag) when ridden, and use tension to keep it from sagging enough to damage the spine, then the idea that this might be a harmful thing goes away. Particularly since I'd bet both horse and rider DID relax a short time later! Bandit does - IF I convince him WE are not in danger!








​ 
OK, this horse is not "rounding". He is not tucking his pelvis under and he is not lifting at the withers - both things horses CAN do even if they cannot "round". But neither do I see a horse hollowing his back, braced and evading the bit! It goes back to why I was told Bandit's movement in this photo "sucked":








​
The neck is raised and the head is not tucked. Therefor he MUST be inverted (braced, rigid, unable to use his back without causing damage). Same in a trot:








​ 
While I grant Bandit is not "collecting" - and we're moving too fast for collection, and he's looking where he is going - this is fun to ride. He is not, in any way or form, evading the bit in these photos. He is actually listening very well.

I fully understand and have zero problem with "This is not desired in dressage". What ****es me off is the idea that this is "bad", "inverted", "harmful", and unhealthy for the horse!

Now...this photo strikes me as just poor riding:








It could be just a bad moment in time, or just the guy trying to get an excited horse to slow. But on the whole, I'd chalk that one up to bad riding.








This one looks like balancing on the reins perhaps, or someone trying to slow a resisting horse. Notice the difference in the horse's expression as compared to Bandit.

I find this diagram helpful in looking at a horse's motion:








​

Collection involves tucking the pelvis under and raising the withers. It has nothing important to do with head position. Or neck. There is a BAD theory of collection called the "Bow and String" theory: that the tummy muscles are the string, and tighten to round up the spine (bow) above them. The problem is that on a moving horse, the tummy muscles contract when the horse is stretching out, and relax when the horse's back lifts, so THAT isn't right.

There is also a theory that the muscle along the back is a rope connecting the front and rear, so that a raised head means the rope is sagging in the middle (inverted). But the muscle is NOT a rope. It is connected to every bone in the horse's back. It acts as a segmented muscle, and (just like with humans) the horse can raise its head without having any impact on the action of the muscle further back.

_"The thought that the horse’s neck telescopes out of the shoulders, stretches and reaches is wishful thinking to say the least. Even as a metaphor, the thought induces totally false ideas. The problem is that a horse does not perform as a fictitious model. Athletic achievements involve muscles, tendons, ligaments, fascia, central pattern generators, and nervous circuits. If the body coordination matches the rider’s fantasy but is unrelated to the horse’s physiology, the horse performs below his potential until lameness shortens his career..."_

Stretching the Neck

Equine Back Research


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## SueC

You and your heresies, @*bsms* ! ;-)

I generally agree with you here, as I said on the thread itself - just feel horses in Photo 1 and 4 have rider issues affecting their balance - poor No.4, very uncomfortable; rider unyielding with bit etc. You don't ride like the rider in Photo 1, and Bandit doesn't overcompensate as a result, nor like No.4, as you like a relatively loose rein and have clearly heard of soft rider hands! 

PS: I've nearly finished that translation - this gives me impetus to get a move on - because it's an essay by a generalist horse person and you're going to much prefer what she has to say about horses and horsepersonship, than what the various "Fachidioten" say about it these days. ;-)

*and a _Fachidiot_, to those who haven't heard it, is the German concept of literally a "speciality area idiot" - a person so specialised they've lost the big picture in a lamentable manner! It's not what @*bsms* implied it was previously in his journal! That was just Anglo language people having problems with a soft "ch" sound.


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## SueC

Oh yeah, just posted that thing. You'll love the horse pictures, in view of "correct" position blah blah. Also the head angles on the horses ridden in terrain - and the fact that the vast majority of them carry themselves beautifully, even if they don't carry themselves exactly the same way! 

https://www.horseforum.com/member-j...ys-other-people-479466/page79/#post1970587921

:cowboy:


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## Knave

You know what @bsms, I tend to think humans are seriously convinced they know more than they do in all topics. I think that styles come and go as well. For example, in reining the slide stop has changed over the years I have been a part of it. When I was a small child a horse slid with its head up. Now, those horses who won many things and were athletes just the same, would be looked down upon in their stop because the style now has a horse drop his head down when he slides. 

Things change and everyone jumps on a boat and says this is the way it must be done. Now, like you, I’m fine with “If you want to be competitive this is the way you have to do it,” but I’m not okay with believing it necessary or harm to a horse to do otherwise. We overthink and underthink and the whole time refuse to think.

I do like @SueC’s translation as that woman was purely open minded to different cultures ideals. We all have a tendency to lack that, which is okay, but I get annoyed when one person says that it has to be this way and another says it has to be that way. I honestly don’t even know if collection honestly helps a horse. It makes it look nice and stylish, but I’m not sure the horse cares either way. There are times it is good for them to collect in preparation for something, which is what collection is, preparation. I don’t walk around prepared all of the time. My horses can move however they please when they are doing their job as long as they are doing it (with a few exceptions in certain circumstances).


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## bsms

I honestly don't see anything wrong with this:








​ 
Well, the rider's posture could use work, but it strongly reminds me of me - for short periods of time when Bandit & I are both intent on "something". They look like a couple of bird dogs pointing.The horse's neck is raised, more so than the horse will want for any length of time, but not fully inverted...more like Bandit doing the Looky-Loo. That affects his back, but only while he's looking.

Ultimately, I think terms like "round" and "invert" totally distort what the horse actually does. They create confusion! The spine cannot round up. It can only sag. But a couple of inches of total sag could break the horse's back, so they will do anything needed to prevent that much sag. Or die. The total deflection in the horse's spine stays within a very narrow range at all times - while the horse lives!

This image is an attempt to show how the muscles affect the spine:








​ 
"_The pathologist explained that in order to create horizontal forces, (forward movement,) and vertical forces, (resistance to gravity and balance control), two muscles are needed, one acting horizontally and one acting vertically, or, a single muscle acting in an oblique manner. Such insertion allows the same muscle to create both horizontal and vertical forces. This is exactly how the fascicles of the main back muscles are oriented and function. This was the beginning of a long series of research aiming toward a functioning of the horse’s back muscles based on the subtle management of forces instead of increasing the movements of the vertebrae. This was 1969 and we were, at that time, already far away from the infantile idea that a single action such as lowering the neck could flex the whole thoracolumbar spine and also that gaits and performances can be improved by increasing the range of motion of the horse’s thoracolumbar column....

...Very few of today’s advanced scientific discoveries benefit the horse through better training and riding techniques. The reason is that instead of questioning old ideas in the light of new findings trainers, riders and judges are integrating new discoveries to old beliefs. Considering the cost of raising, maintaining and training a horse, it is incomprehensible that the practical application of modern science, which could greatly prolong and further the horse’s career, preserve the horse’s soundness and consequently cut the vet bills, is rejected in favor of archaic but familiar approaches. 

In1976 was also when Hans Carlson demonstrated that *the main function of the back muscles was not to increase the range of movement of the horse’s vertebral column, as suggested in the video as well as in the show ring, but at the contrary, to protect the vertebral column from movements exceeding the thoracolumbar spine’s possible range of motion*...._" 

Equine Back Research

I've been told I can't understand since I don't train in dressage. I think I may be able to understand because I read the research before hearing the odd idea that a balanced horse had a 50:50 weight distribution, or that a horse lowering its head would raise its back.

I never believed the horse's spine was part of the weight bearing structure. This horse has all the bone of a healthy horse, but none of the weight bearing capacity:








​ 
Curl dumbbells with one arm, and you'll feel the muscles on that side of your torso tense to support the weight - so your spine won't need to. I lifted weights for decades before I got serious about riding horses. I think those decades of NOT riding freed me to take an open look at how horses move.

If one concludes the muscles of a horse's back protect the spine from excessive sag, and accept the undoubted fact that they attach to each bone in the spine rather than run along it like a rope, then many of the traditional ideas about what a horse's head should be doing disappear. It leads to the conclusion that the effectiveness of the horse's back requires an appropriate level of tension, but that excessive tension (bracing) means the horse has too much weight for his capacity. Simple as that. Is the back flowing, or rigid?


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## SueC

For short periods, when there's an emu about, fine - but for long periods and as a way of getting from A to B, not so much I think. This is not in the range of body positions for _ground-covering movement_ I observe in horses in the paddock, or in the wild; and yet you see horses do this exaggerated high-neck thing when ridden, and not just because it's going "Lookee here!" Issues with rider hands and bits are one common reason; clearly not in this photo. A horse has to use its neck as a counterweight for balance, when it gets unbalanced. It seems to me that the horse is doing this in this photo, and not just saying, "Look, emu!" Just an impression I'm getting, and could tell more if I saw a minute's clip instead. The rider doesn't just seem temporarily imbalanced to me as a result of a horse saying, "Look, emu!" - just a hunch, but a clip would tell us more. I'd also like to see how this horse moves in a paddock, without the rider or human influence.


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## bsms

A 10 second video is SOOOO much more helpful than a snapshot!

And now I need to remember to tell Bandit, "_Don't worry. It's probably just an emu..._"


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## gottatrot

My counterpoint is that I've seen Arabs that move that way naturally too. Perhaps you wouldn't call it the best conformation, yet many of these excel at endurance. 
Satin moves with her neck high in the field, and also under saddle - here she is in a bitless:








Halla:








Amore loose in the field - notice her big trot. 








Sometimes with such a short neck, she'd have to counterbalance when going fast:








A couple strides later:








Natural movement under saddle in bitless:









I used to think horses moving like Amore were doing it wrong. But I have to say that Amore and Halla both were able to do many hard miles without injury, rarely ever getting sore. That horse with the goofy looking extended trot may be able to carry himself that way efficiently for miles and miles. That neck posture might provide the correct balance for the power of his extended gait, making it more efficient for him.

My thoughts are about what if you put the motor closer to where the brakes are? Notice how some of these Arabs have such short backs, and the power from the hind is very close to the front of the horse. They have a smaller shoulder and neck, and probably less braking action from the front, so maybe they need the lift of the front to control the forward motion (perhaps more with the weight of the rider)? Just some ponderings.


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## SueC

That's good food for thought, @*gottatrot* ! Thank you.  Perhaps I've been prejudiced by hanging around those lovely classical Crabbet/Polish Arabians with long, well-set necks, who are endurance horses par excellence. If either my late Arabian mare or the STBs I have here moved with their heads in the air like that horse in that particular photo while trying to _seriously_ get from A to B (and not performing high jinx or playing "lookee emus" or just going from one side of a small paddock to another), it would worry me, because it wouldn't be normal for them.

This clip has Sunsmart (who does _not_ have the best neck confo) moving at liberty, both to cover ground (beginning of clip when moving purposefully towards cows) and playing "lookee" as he's slowing up and spotting me with the camera at the end. He doesn't adopt the "lookee" pose when he's serious about covering ground. You can stop the clip at intervals to check his neck position in the different modes.






My Arabian mare was the same.

But yeah, if horses have different conformation to that, then they may well move differently. I guess the next question would be, how efficient is it? And do a study of neck positions versus objective performance in endurance horses. It would be interesting to see. I could only give you anecdotal evidence from when I was competing, and hunches formed from there - not the full scientific study!


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## Fimargue

SueC said:


> For short periods, when there's an emu about, fine - but for long periods and as a way of getting from A to B, not so much I think. This is not in the range of body positions for _ground-covering movement_ I observe in horses in the paddock, or in the wild; and yet you see horses do this exaggerated high-neck thing when ridden, and not just because it's going "Lookee here!" Issues with rider hands and bits are one common reason; clearly not in this photo. A horse has to use its neck as a counterweight for balance, when it gets unbalanced. It seems to me that the horse is doing this in this photo, and not just saying, "Look, emu!" Just an impression I'm getting, and could tell more if I saw a minute's clip instead. The rider doesn't just seem temporarily imbalanced to me as a result of a horse saying, "Look, emu!" - just a hunch, but a clip would tell us more. I'd also like to see how this horse moves in a paddock, without the rider or human influence.


I bet that horse moves pretty much exactly the same way in the paddock. I just posted some pics on my thread of my mare moving by herself in her natural form, and it is exactly like this. 

Here is the post:


Fimargue said:


> The thing with Arabs is that the back does not feel hollow until/unless the horse really lifts their head up.
> 
> Like this:
> 
> 
> Someone took a video of my mare running around (quite amusing because she never does that) - it's on Facebook so can't link the video to show how well and freely she is moving, and this is the way she naturally carries her head at the trot. Exactly the same way as the critisised grey Arab.
> 
> 
> I particularly wanted to show her pretty wonderful uphill extended trot, but unfortunately I only have these bad screenshots.
> 
> 
> My mentor once said that Arabs are not like any other horses, when they are relaxed their head comes/stays up. Didn't understand what she meant at the time, but I do now. The back only becomes braced when they lift their nose high enough like in the first photo.
> 
> There are Arabs that are differently build and real rubber necks, but more often than not is not the type we see most often in endurance.


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## bsms

I consider Bandit's head position here almost freakishly high and set back:








​ 
Yet his canter is very enjoyable to ride. I'm convinced he learned to do it SMOOTHLY so he could save his back on long distances by cantering instead of trotting - swinging a very heavy rider along with him instead of having that rider bounce up and down. I'M awkward and stiff, but he makes it easy to sit and roll with his back.

My suspicion is that a horse's motion is much more involved than we realize, and a horse given freedom to choose will choose what feels best to him overall. For example, Bandit has big knees. I suspect his front legs have been damaged. Could he be doing things to reduce stress on his knees, regardless if it requires more energy or increases impact elsewhere?

I don't know. I can't ask him. I do know MY jogging stride length, how much thrust comes from my leg versus pushing off with my foot, the angle of my foot compared to straight ahead, etc - it all changes. With terrain. How tired I am. How hot. What type of shoe I wear - big difference between using a very cushioned shoe versus no cushion. And I don't analyze it. I just do it in whatever way works best for me on that slope, those shoes, that temperature, how much further I have to go, etc. Happily, I don't have to jog in front of a panel of horses grading me on equine ideas of perfect form!


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## Fimargue

gottatrot said:


> That horse with the goofy looking extended trot may be able to carry himself that way efficiently for miles and miles. *That neck posture might provide the correct balance for the power of his extended gait, making it more efficient for him*.


You are making some real points in your post.

This is why my mare can't for the life of her perform the same lovely extended trot in a form accepted for dressage.
@SueC, nothing wrong with the neck conformation of Sunsmart. He is a stunning horse by the way.
@bsms, Bandit also has that same neck conformation as Talila. He is in a nice uphill canter and just because his head is not in his chest, does not mean it's not correct, or that he doesn't move freely and efficiently.

Just couple days ago I was critisised for my mare's deep, apparently weak, back. Yes, she doesn't have a flat back like a WB because she is not one - she is an Arab! I swear, those people who think all horses must be the same.


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## SueC

@Fimargue , when I got him he had an upside-down neck from using his body incorrectly in some of his harness training - virtually no muscles on top, and too much below. Not all horses use their bodies incorrectly in harness training, but he did - different to how he moved in the paddock by himself- and he did it because a gait was being attempted to be imposed on him that he wasn't comfortable with. He's from a trotting line, there were no trotting races here then, and my father was trying to get him to pace in hopples - for nine long years before he gave up and I adopted this horse. In hopples he hobbled around uncomfortably in three-time with his back hollow and stargazing painfully - and it obviously affected his muscles, as all training does. So when I picked up his training, much of it was "undo" to tell the horse he could move naturally now, which he gratefully accepted. Still, I wore the back of his head in my face if I rode him in a snaffle and he got startled, so I changed him to a Spanish snaffle (=short shanked port-mouthed curb), which he preferred anyway as it's a softer bit with more warning and less risk of bumping up against it in a sticky situation.

He's totally happy with that, and probably would be in a hackamore as well, or a bosal - but he's not the kind of horse for whom a snaffle is best, both from his and from his rider's perspective, no matter how much people drone monotonously on about the "ideal" of all horses working wonderfully in a snaffle. Chip, a STB I rode in endurance training, was the sort of horse who worked brilliantly in a snaffle, by the way, and that worked best with him, but my point is all horses are different and who arbitrarily decided that the snaffle is nirvana anyway? The physics is not on the side of that one, and try telling it to Western riders, or the Spanish tradition. I think this is just unhelpful cultural bollocks which makes a lot of horses and people suffer in the name of "correctness." It would be just as stupid as if I were to insist that the Spanish snaffle should be our new one-size-fits-all solution, or the bosal, or any _one_ thing. Personally I like to ask the horse - try a range of different things and see what works most harmoniously.

Anyway, one advantage of not riding an upside-down horse in a snaffle, apart from not wearing its head in your face or getting your teeth knocked out if it sees an emu, is that you then stop the "raise head if emergency happens" mode horses get into with a snaffle (and not bitless, by the way, because they're not trying to prevent the discomfort that inevitably happens when you bump up against a snaffle by accident). I ride mostly on the trail now and not mostly in the arena - people can make different decisions for the arena.

It was quite a revelation riding horses in English hackamores for the first time (I was ten); both the horses we had at the time would stick their own faces into them eagerly when being bridled but kind of go, "Do we really have to?" with their snaffle bits in whom they rode OK (Chip loved his snaffle, was great in it and literally grabbed it when being bridled). But they rode better in the hackamores - happier, more relaxed, more cued into weight shifts from me.

OMG, I've digressed at length. Let's see if I can get back to Sunsmart: Apart from finding head-gear he was happy to assume his natural position in, and no longer working upside-down, another thing that really helped him was being a free-ranging grazing animal, instead of a horse cooped up in a stable and small sand run. I realise not everyone can keep horses on the range, but he now gets 16 hours of natural neck exercise daily when grazing - and you can see the differences in the neck muscles of the retirees I've adopted here within two weeks of arrival; they all start getting curves in the top when they were straight or upside-down before. I think it's just a combination of everything the horse does all day.

Sunsmart, by the way, in his natural conformation is missing a chunk between his wither and the start of the neck, just like his mother and grandmother did, and all of them were notorious stargazers. That's a genetic tendency that was reinforced by the way he was kept and exercised previously, and countered by the way he is kept and exercised now. I think his neck looks fine these days.



My lovely tank!  With his late mother and uncle here. And he has gorgeous natural movement, but you should have seen him in hoppled harness training...

Go to 1:00 here and you can see his (and the late Arabian mare's) natural movement when going "lookee":






My mare really didn't bother me with her headset, she had a classical arched, crested neck (but please note she was 30 and a bit overdone in this video from the abundance of grass in retirement...) and was fine in pretty much anything I asked her to do, except jumping.

Man, I've rambled. Well, I'm not quite awake yet! :rofl: Have a brilliant Sunday, all!


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## bsms

I wish the whole "inverted" concept would go away. I don't find it productive. A horse who lifts his head high and sticks his face out to reject being controlled by the bit is performing a bit evasion. He isn't inverted. He's just trying to ignore the bit. He is giving himself relief - UNLESS the rider reacts correctly, refuses relief, and keeps refusing relief until the horse FINDS relief by relaxing.

Even at star-gazing levels of evasion, I doubt the BACK inverts. It braces, which is very different from inverting. It might slightly dip lower, but it cannot curve MUCH lower without breaking the back. I think people say "invert" as a contrast to "round" to make what they like to do sound essential, when in fact backs really do neither to any great degree. 

It also makes what they train for sound difficult and esoteric - the sort of thing one needs an instructor for, to teach the initiate the complexity of riding! After all, how many lessons does it take for someone to realize a horse with a braced, rigid back isn't fun to ride & probably isn't HAVING fun being ridden? How easy is it to understand "_My horse is strong enough and I'm working well enough with him for his back to flow underneath me!_"

Horses can have ewe necks. I think Bandit tends to have one. This picture was taken 6 weeks after I got him:








​ 
This was a few days ago, although without a rider:








​ 
I think Bandit will always have a tendency to a ewe-neck. If I was looking for a horse to buy, I might pass on him based on his looks alone. But I also agree with what this trail-riders guide to conformation says:


> Many riders in the performance disciplines know the advantages of a long neck and fine throatlatch, and may relate that need to a soft turning trail horse. Although it would not be a disadvantage to have a fine throatlatch on a trail horse, trail conditions do not really demand it. *Turning left, right, and back originates from a soft mind rather than from a fine throatlatch.*
> 
> The softest, easiest turning horse I have ever owned was a very stout-necked Fjord gelding that I purchased in Smithers, BC. This horse was a thing of beauty, *a Porsche in a delivery van body*....
> 
> ...A ewe neck – a neck that dips as it leaves the shoulders – is considered an imperfection, but a slight ewe neck does not have as much bearing on the trail horse as does the slope of the shoulder. A well sloped shoulder is generally smoother to ride than an upright shoulder. - https://www.horsejournals.com/trail-tips-conformation-trail-horse


When Bandit and I are MENTALLY in-synch, his body turns fluidly and easily, almost as if MY mind is turning him. When we are NOT in synch mentally - and we often aren't, to be honest - then turning, slowing, etc all becomes hard work. Arguably, controlling a horse is hard work. Getting a horse in tune with you is also hard work of a different sort, but a horse whose mind is in touch with his rider's is wonderfully soft and responsive!

"_If you can get your horse to want what you want, he'll be amazing._" Tell that to a new rider, and the student is likely to ask HOW. And I suspect many instructors wouldn't have a clue. Nor is it something easy to teach on a lesson horse.


> ...Ridden by neck-aids, the horse is a free individual. It cannot be forced. It can not be controlled, but it can and does have to be guided. *It has to have everything explained to it, and its cooperation has then to be won over. If it is asked to do anything absurd, it will merely say, "This fool rider does not know what he is talking about," and go its own way.* It is hopeless to try riding by neck-aids until one has learnt the horse's language...
> 
> ...As soon as a person is prepared to follow his horse, his seat will come automatically. *His only problem then is the eternal one of the educationalist and the politician - that of getting what he wants out of his subject. This is an art, not a technique; it is a skill, not a science. When to give in, when to press forward; when to exert authority and when to withdraw it - these are moments whose recognition cannot be taught by rule of thumb. They can only be recognized by the sympathetic - by the person who is not entirely engrossed in his own welfare.* Only two laws can, I think, be said to hold for all occasions. The first is "Know your goal before you set out", for the unguided horse, like the mass of human beings, will go nowhere if left to itself. The second is "Don't give orders without a reason". - Adventures Unbridled - Moyra Williams 1960


She also wrote this, which I believe encapsulates what I've learned in the last 10 years AND what I will never live long enough to truly achieve:

"_When I gave up trying to control Portia and tried instead to find out what she was, both she and life took on a different complexion. Here in my very back garden and under my own hand was the novelty and thrill I had missed while traveling over five continents. Here was the adventure, knowledge and inspiration which some people seek in outer space, others in the unexplored centre of the earth's surface. Here, in front of my eyes as soon as I opened them to it, was excitement enough for a lifetime..._"
​


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## tinyliny

I think , @bsms, you will exhaust yourself trying to exlain this elusive reality to folks. it's a thing that has to be experienced to be believed. But, here and now, let me say . . I hear you.


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## SueC

Well, as with many things, I don't believe this is a black and white case. I think there are many variations to this. I agree with much of what you are saying, @bsms, but some horses actually do get comparatively inverted by being trained in a way that makes their body uncomfortable and isn't the way they would naturally go - and I'm coming at this from a harness perspective, not a dressage perspective, in the example I gave in my last post. I think horses can and do end up with muscular and biomechanical issues when they are being forced to perform in ways that are awkward to them - whether that be having their heads yanked up too high (a common problem with harness horses, and a historical problem with carriage horses when super-high head carriage was the fashion) or having them hauled back too low like many aspiring dressage riders do - and this is not what classical dressage enthusiasts would do with their horses, because that would force on horses artificially and in bad imitation what can be developed naturally with the right kind of general and gymnastic exercises and is supposed to result in a better self-carriage for a certain purpose, like ballet dancers develop a better self-carriage for their purpose. And, of course, not everyone does ballet - there are lots of different sports to suit different inclinations, in the horse and human worlds alike. And most sports, human or horse, are better than being a decomposing couch potato.

So I think that the concept of "inversion" is way overapplied, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist at all. My horse was being forced to work "inverted" when hopple training, and it had effects on his muscles and self-carriage that I worked to undo when I saddle trained him, with the result that the horse became more comfortable and worked more harmoniously and with greater enjoyment. I had before and after data for all stages of that horse's life - the way he moved before his unfortunate hopple training (in a horse without the pacing inclination), during, and after.

And conceptually, I think Rollkur is the opposite extreme to what Sunsmart was being asked to do in harness as a non-pacer when his prior owner spent nine years trying to convince the unhappy horse to pace.

And yes, a lot of people who dabble in dressage incorrectly see horses with perfectly functional head positions in their particular pursuits as "inverted" and "ugly" and all that rubbish. But that doesn't mean every form of posture we see in horses is 100% AOK either - some horses really do have physical problems, either from genetic predisposition, or from habitually being exercised in a manner that makes them lop-sided in some way, shape or form (not just the way Sunsmart was, _lots_ of different lopsidednesses are possible, in horses and in humans), or from trying to cope with an ineffectual and unbalanced rider. And to give a human example, Pilates tries to address this issue in human beings, and pretty much always is beneficial to people who practice it - we bipeds have a particularly hard time trying to carry ourselves well especially in advancing age, with a bipedal lifestyle superimposed on a modified initially quadrupedal structure. Horses are far better at it than we are - and the main things that kill decent self-carriage in them are freaky breeding (by humans rather than natural selection), and human demands made on them in their work.

:cowboy:


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## bsms

I don't think the BACK inverts to any significant degree. To test the spine's ability to flex, they took spines out of freshly killed horses who had no back problems, then measured the difference between supporting it in the middle with weights on each end, and supporting it on the ends with a weight in the middle. About 2 1/2 inches is the maximum difference before breaking the back. A horse who wants to live must stay well inside those limits, since exceeding it means death. When Clayton was asked what happens to a horse's back when a rider is there, she said simply, "It sags." And everything I can find indicates this is true. It sags. How much depends on a lot of variables. But the horse must ALWAYS limit the amount of sag. Or die.

I think Bandit is an excellent test case for a horse ridden badly and thus who HAD to keep his back rigid. Rigid, not "inverted". He was running while carrying 35-40% of his body weight for 10-15 mile training legs. He certainly learned to brace his back. But his back didn't "invert". Bandit before I got him - and he is not hollowed out:








​ 
*That does not in ANY way mean he moved well*. He had ample issues, including using his left front leg at a 40 degree angle. How hard must THAT have been, running with 35% of his weight on his back! "_I think horses can and do end up with muscular and biomechanical issues when they are being forced to perform in ways that are awkward to them..._" - @*SueC* And Bandit DID!

Since he wasn't "inverted", the solution hasn't been to hold him between the driving aids and restraining aids and "round him up". A lot just meant freeing him to move naturally. Getting the too small shoes off. But it still took 6 months of trying to get him to walk straight down a trail or road + his time moving freely on his own in the corral to get him to use his left front leg "naturally". And it retains some angle, and maybe always will.

The solution to previous bad training is good training, although I don't believe it can totally overcome the damage and habit patterns. Bandit sometimes slides into a canter, so I know he can. But can anyone blame a horse who used to hurdle himself into a canter to get his very heavy rider into motion, if he sometimes reverts and throws himself into a canter with a much lighter rider?

I don't think a horse can ever be totally broken from bucking, although he may not bother to buck for the rest of his life. He still knows about it. Bad habits - like my tendency to cuss - don't go away so much as just become less prevalent! What Bandit did to protect himself from hard riding and bad shoeing may never go away. He just doesn't do it as much. But I'd bet there is damage to his legs. That damage then become a conformation problem, only an internal one.

The problem with using "inverted" and "round" is two-fold. First, many use the terms blindly. Reining horses now make sliding stops with their noses low, and back up in an unnatural manner because it LOOKS "round":








​ 







No idea if it actually helps the stop, although I suspect the goal in reining has become a long slide, not a fast stop!

The second problem is a false diagnosis leads to a false solution: Train the horse to look "round". What does "long and low" training really teach? Racinet argues it teaches a horse to spread its thoracic sling, widen the gap between the front legs, and let the withers lower. But...it LOOKS rounder! And if the horse needs to "round", how do you do it? Well:

"_This of course requires that the horse is well contained between the pushing aids and restraining aids, because this relatively high basic tension which is necessary for collection *can only be obtained in this way*...Prolonged collecting work is very strenuous for the horse._" - Balance in Movement, The Seat of the Rider by Susanne von Dietze, page 120

And of course, it leads to the logical conclusion that a horse who ISN'T "round" is moving badly. Harmfully. How DO endurance horses do it? How do they move badly for so many miles, watched by vets, and continue to do so for many years? It's a conundrum!

I'll add a third problem: It leads riders to focus on their horses "shape" instead of what is extremely obvious - does the back brace or move fluidly? It led to Trooper being called "out of control" and "badly balanced" in this picture. To this day it staggers me that a horse being ridden without reins could be described as out of control:








​ 
Outside of specific sports - and I do NOT begrudge those sports to conforming to their own goals, provided the horse is willing - I think the overwhelming majority of riders ought to focus, not on position, not on looks, not on head position, not on neck shape, but simply what Littauer summarized as "fluid balance". Fluid balance for BOTH horse and rider! When you feel your horse flowing underneath you...what an incredible feeling! When you feel him tense and braced...what a SUCKY feeling! Let the rider focus on getting more "incredible" and less "suck"!

I suspect, SueC, we have very similar views on how horses move. Incorrect riding and incorrect training gear can cause a horse to have huge problems. I just believe "inverted" and "round" - in addition to being inaccurate - are harmful in terms of diagnosing and fixing problems. I was never trained in European riding. Is it any wonder I reject the language of dressage?

BTW - why is it when people discuss "round", they look at the neck and not the loin and hips?


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## SueC

I think this is a mostly semantic game, @bsms. You probably use the words differently to me. By "inverted" I described the way his muscles had been used, and I never made any reference to his skeleton - that's a debate you're having with someone else, not with me. If other people have loaded different meanings onto this word, this is not my problem - I will continue to use it as a normal dictionary word, when I feel it applies. Undoubtedly it has become a loaded term, as has the term "love" or "Christmas" - but that doesn't mean I am not going to use those words, in the way that they make sense to me, and not caring about the implications or fashions or abuses of the time. Otherwise, we're going to lose most of our vocabulary just because some people misuse it etc.

And I do think that we very likely think more alike than we have points of difference in these things; since I personally do not classify you as a raving lunatic! :rofl: (You know the definition of sanity? It's how well we fit in with the insanity of other people and the world around us!) I have a lot of respect for you as a thinker and doer, and enjoy reading your effusions ;-) and learn from them, and they make me think, as this sort of peer discussion should be. (Put that in your pipe and smoke it, ye hallowed halls of academia!)

I think a lot of the differences you think we are having are just about the way we use words differently, and things like that I never actually mentioned anything skeletal, that's just other people's baggage who use that word! ;-)

I think these discussions are very useful and entertaining and sharpen the minds of everyone participating!











:runpony:


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## tinyliny

Yeah, with regard to 'inverted', I'm in agreement with @SueC; it's about what muscles are firing, rather than the 'bend' of the spine one way or the other. And, it feels much different to the rider


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## bsms

In terms of what is important, I agree with both @*SueC* and @*tinyliny* . In terms of how I've seen "inverted" used...I've frequently seen it used this way:








​ 







​ What Is A Hollow Horse?








​ 
"_We’ve seen quite a few horses over past years who appear just as any other horse when at liberty or standing but as soon as the rider is mounted and asks the horse to move forward, *the head comes up and the middle of the back hollows out thus losing contact with the saddle*. The medical term for this is ventroflexion but more commonly it’s often referred to as traveling inverted or upside-down. It all adds up to the same thing…trouble for your horse’s back_."

https://www.synergistsaddles.com/hollow-backed-horse/










Engage Your Horse's Back In Order To Develop Your Horse's Topline - THE THINKING EQUESTRIAN​
"_In nature, when a horse is frightened, he sticks his head up, his neck stiffens, his back goes hollow and he has a one-item agenda: "Save yourself!" *When he's relaxed and contented, however, his head is down, his neck is long and his back is round.* The picture of roundness you see when a rider puts a horse on the bit actually creates just such a mental state of willingness and relaxation._

_A horse who's not on the bit is mentally not with his rider. He's more easily distracted, inclined to react instinctively to frightening sights or sounds by shying or running off, and he may even resist openly. His body also feels disorganized, like a jumble of disjointed pieces rather than a well-oiled machine. He's difficult to turn and steer--and to my mind he's very uncomfortable to sit on."
_
https://practicalhorsemanmag.com/training/horse-on-bit











https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Back_(horse)​
It is what I saw on the thread concerning endurance horses - the head is too high, the nose is too far out, the horse is hollow, inverted, and their backs are being harmed. Yet...endurance horses ride long miles with regular vet checks, performing for years. While supposedly inverted. What I see again and again when I ask people for examples are horses whose heads are higher than the withers and whose noses aren't pointing at the ground.

Bandit carries his head high and will always stick his nose out at speed. It would be wrong for him to do otherwise. Nobody hauls his face up there. When he does it, he feels balanced, flowing and very in tune with me. In spite of his nose being out, since softness and connection is in the mind, not the nose! Maybe it is his shoulder angle, or where his neck connects. But it has nothing to do with his back, which can be braced rigid or flowing with identical head positions.

Thus my conclusion: Many people call a horse inverted ANY TIME the head is higher than the withers and the nose in not pointing at the ground! And while it can be hard to know from a static picture if a horse is braced, it is easy to feel. So...concentrate on the feel, not the image. If riders were taught to concentrate on flowing with their horse, versus their "position" and their horse's "position", then this would all go away. Bracing is a sign of bad things. Flowing is a sign of good things.


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## bsms

PS: And what is the best way to train a horse to engage its back? Is it to drive the horse forward while maintaining the "restraining aids" - to use the reins as a nozzle, restricting the flow of energy? Or is it as simple as getting off his back as much as possible, and anticipating his movement and performing it with him when one cannot get off the back?

To what extent was Caprilli correct:

_"Long years of practice and of continual observation have convinced me that the horse acquires these qualities without effort provided that the rider subjects him to rational and uninterrupted training, throughout which he tries to make his own actions the least disturbing that he can to the horse, and tries not to impede him in the natural development of his aptitudes and energies. ... 
_
_....the first rule of good riding is that of reducing, simplifying and sometimes, if possible, even eliminating the action of the rider. If the hands are used to turn and check a horse, and the legs to make him move forward and to give him resolution and decisiveness this is enough...

...If natural work is required of a horse [field work] and not artificial [manege work] he will be better able to make use of his impulses, instincts and his natural balance...

...the horse who has rational exercise, during which he is allowed to balance himself as he pleases, not being punished with needless suffering, develops in the most efficient fashion, with great advantage to his way of carrying himself, and becomes docile and submissive to the wishes of the rider.

... in order to accustom horses to the field without ruining them and making them bad-tempered, one must always profit by the natural instincts of the animal substantiating his movements and way of going, and one must give him the least possible discomfort in the mouth, loins and ribs. One must abolish the forced position of balance, and any action of the horse's legs beyond that which is essential to move him forward._"

Is good movement for field work as simple as learning to get out of the way?


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## bsms

Let me give an example from this morning's ride. We were having bug issues today. At times, Bandit would be trotting smoothly forward, and then raise his head high - stargazing high - and thrash his head back and forth for a few seconds. During this time, he continued to trot nicely forward. His very highly elevated head, even his head thrashing, had no impact on his back or his stride. Because he wasn't resisting me. He was just having bad bug issues.

So we stopped, and I did something I haven't tried before. I stuck my finger in his ears and let him rub the inside of his ears against my fingers. And OH MY! That was ecstasy! Relief!

Is there a correlation between a very high, nose out head position and a stiff back, regardless of how one defines "inverted"? Yes. Because a horse who is stargazing is resisting his rider, and he ALSO stiffens his back to prepare for violent movement (because the most important job of the back muscles is to LIMIT the movement of the spine).

A resisting star-gazer does BOTH, but it is not cause-effect. It is the result of two separate actions happening at the same time. Since Bandit wasn't resisting - at least, not me - he was ONLY lifting his head up and shaking it.

If one wants to define an inverted back as a braced, rigid back due to muscles...well, I agree. The critical part in watching a moving horse, and hard to tell from a snapshot, is if the horse is resisting, or if he is merely raising his head - to see better, or to shake it hard for bugs. I promise you, had someone been there with a camera, they could have taken snapshots that would look like I was an abusive rider and Bandit was insane with resistance. But a 10 second video would have shown bugs were driving him nuts, not me.

So...semantics? Possibly. Depends on who one is talking to. I think between @*SueC* and I it is merely semantics. Between someone who thinks Bandit sucks because he doesn't have his nose pointed at the ground, it is much more than semantics. I confess, I'm probably over-sensitive based on how many times I've been blasted for suggesting a lot of normal looking Arabians are merely NORMAL LOOKING ARABIANS, and not badly ridden and badly trained Arabians. It isn't only horses who can get gun-shy, so to speak. So my apologies if I've offended anyone here.

Think of it as a Rorschach test. What do you see? :think:









​PS: I see a horse I wished I owned! Half-brother to Trooper, but a lot more spirit.​


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## SueC

Yeah, love that horse, as has been mentioned before! 

BTW I don't think stargazing is _always_ about avoiding whatever the rider is doing wrong / avoiding bit discomfort (but it's probably the biggest factor). I think poor saddle fit and back pain can cause it too, and habit can then carry it on - the horse basically thinks, "Work time, this is my defense position against all the horrid stuff I've experienced, it's my insurance policy." Or, "This is what they want / what I have to do." And also there's a genetic predisposition from conformation etc.

It's really interesting to read the theory samples you're presenting. Y'know, if I read half that stuff cover to cover and took it seriously it would predispose me to stomach ulcers. I think it's great to have some sensible basic texts on horse training, and after that, it's really about listening to your horses, rather than listening to monkey theories. I think we both know we've learnt more about horses from actual horses, than from what people say about them. 

I think a lot of the modern monkey theories about horses are like the Flat Earth Society, and reminiscent of the way religious cults operate. Make wild speculations before looking at all the evidence carefully, look for "evidence" that supports your confirmation bias, proselytise wildly and enthusiastically, reduce your insecurities by surrounding yourself with people who also subscribe to your dogma, personally attack and treat as stupid and morally deficient anyone who disagrees with your dogma. And that way of operating has many many subscribers, and there are many different dogmas people can choose from, sort of like gelato.

My karma ran over your dogma! :rofl:

My time on this planet is so limited that when I see dogma my basic reaction now is to yawn and do something else, like ride my horse.

:cowboy:

Or, if temporarily skeletally impaired, to hobble down the paddock on my pirate leg and scratch a few ears, short or long, and watch the skin around the eyes crinkle and the noses wiggle and the necks _invert_ themselves with pleasure. Horses have the exact opposite effect on my wellbeing and enjoyment as flat earth monkey theories (and flat earth theory monkeys) do. Horses are very very therapeutic in the modern world. ;-) They can keep us sane despite our own kind.

In closing, let's reclaim some vocabulary! That man over there doing a handstand is nicely _inverted_. I just _inverted_ a fraction. My enjoyment of life is _inversely_ proportional to the time spent reading flat earth monkey theories. I want to _invert_ this bucket of water over the head of this babbling theory monkey. The theory monkey's strength of attachment to his theory is _inversely_ proportional to the number of functional brain cells present in his or her cranium. The law of gravitation is an _inverse_ square law.

Also: This ball is nearly perfectly _round_. Would you like a _round_ of sushi? OK, who's buying the next _round_? That girl is nicely _rounded_ in all the right places. This is a nicely _rounded_ Renaissance man (he's very _balanced_! ;-)). I'm _rounding_ off these decimal places. I _roundly_ reject this drivel. Arancini are _round_ and delicious. I'm rolling '_round_ the floor laughing ;-). You can't fit a square peg in a _round_ hole.

:clap:


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## tinyliny

I think the inversion comes when the poll is drawn back , toward the rider. That horse's head is up, but not pulled backward.


the ideal is to have a horse always moving its' poll further forward, away from the rider's hands. It can with the head up, or with it down. It the horse's head is up, but the poll is pulled back , toward the rider, and the nose is way higher, this is what forms the dip in the neck, and the inverted feeling, and I agree that it comes from the horse having the nose high, the poll pulled back toward the rider, and the lower part of the neck pulling down and forward, e. e. 'bracing'.
Additionally, if the head is downward, with the poll down, but the nose is tucked even closer to the rider (the poll is leading), this is the horse curling under, to evade the bit. Not good for horse, or rider either.


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> Thus my conclusion: Many people call a horse inverted ANY TIME the head is higher than the withers and the nose in not pointing at the ground! And while it can be hard to know from a static picture if a horse is braced, it is easy to feel. So...concentrate on the feel, not the image. If riders were taught to concentrate on flowing with their horse, versus their "position" and their horse's "position", then this would all go away. Bracing is a sign of bad things. Flowing is a sign of good things.


I like @tinyliny's description. 

I'll also agree that it is somewhat semantics to use the terms inverted or round, but also people seem to accept these supposed concepts as a universal guideline for how to ride every horse and for how every horse should look and move. I think it's very important to think about all the factors going on with the horse and what is going to be best for the horse.

While I agree with @SueC that people and the way we use horses can be a big part of horses moving with poor muscle use, I've also seen that quite a few horses develop issues while not being ridden and used, even if it is also somewhat the fault of humans. 

A horse has a farrier that doesn't do a great job with the hooves, and next thing you know all the muscles in the body are compensating, the horse is carrying himself oddly and can develop quite severe crookedness. This all can translate to major saddle fitting issues and the horse can have difficulty with balance when being used under saddle. A horse can also have genetic issues like PSSM or a slightly crooked leg. Sometimes the horse needs a lot of work outside of what is being done with movement during formal training or riding in order to become balanced.

An example is Sizzler, a horse that with great hoof care, some conditioning from the ground, some joint supplements and a good saddle could be used for light riding. I advocate for not using him at all, because no one is able to give him all of that attention. He uses his body very poorly under saddle but this relates to all the things that have happened to him while not being ridden over the years. 









I also agree with @bsms about natural work and allowing the horse to balance as he chooses, to a point. But I also think we need to really think about what is going on with a particular horse and encourage them to use their bodies differently than their inclination at times. A couple of examples are Halla who had crookedness issues from her high/low hoof issues that persisted in the muscles after the hooves improved. She would want to use herself with her neck turned to one side, and also preferred to under use the weaker side of her body. It was my job to encourage her to straighten over time and to go on both leads equally to develop her body better, so in the end she could use herself better too.

Another example is Hero, who if I believed that "long and low" would strengthen the back would have been thrilled at how he wanted to go initially, with his poll at withers level and lower. At first I wondered if this was a natural way of going for him, but I watched him cantering in the field, on the lunge and watched his old racing videos. Putting his head down was helping him avoid using the hind end, putting weight on the forehand. When he was young and strong, he carried his head up. So if he puts his head down, I ask him to put it up and he is getting stronger in the hind end and rarely trying to travel like that. I didn't let him just choose, because I wanted him to get stronger.

Which brings me to something I've been thinking about. I know that "long and low" originated as a stretch one dressage rider used, and others at the upper levels began to use it. What I am thinking is that this helped with some horses, and then everyone began to copy it, and then some thought up a reason why it was a good technique, that it helped strengthen the back. But I've been wondering why it did help those upper horses, and I'm guessing those were warmbloods. I can only theorize, but perhaps some of these horses have more tendency to get really bunched up, really high and tight, and this was a technique to help them learn to lengthen so they could find a happy medium. 

Regardless of how it came about, my point is that you need to think about the conformation of the horse and their balance, and teaching every horse something like this is not going to be helpful. If a horse is high and tight, coming up in my hand I might have them go like this to teach them to stretch out. But so many horses are already heavy on the forehand or avoiding using their hind end, and for those horses you'll want to not teach them to avoid using the hind end in the name of "stretching the back," but instead teach them to lift their neck and accept using their hind end more for driving forward.

It's not about the head, neck or bit, it's about the horse's balance front to back and side to side, if they can use their body and connect the hind end to the front by using their back muscles. If they can balance the driving and braking of the hind and front end. If they can develop a rhythm in the gaits that means they are using their muscles in a balanced way. Most of this they can do naturally, and especially when moving over varied terrain at different speeds. But sometimes they also need some guidance to remind them they can use their body in a certain way.


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## bsms

tinyliny said:


> I think the inversion comes when the poll is drawn back , toward the rider....
> 
> the ideal is to have a horse always moving its' poll further forward, away from the rider's hands...


Why would moving the poll further forward be particularly helpful? To use Bandit as an example:








​During a canter in particular, his head is pretty high and pretty far back. Now...what happens if he lowers his head and neck at a time like this? Well, having been on him when he has done it...he gets off balance. Too far forward. It is like when Mia was learning to canter in a straight line. Their center of gravity moves too far forward for where their front legs land.

Littauer said forward motion is an interrupted fall, and that matches what I've seen and felt. The horse's equilibrium is disturbed as the hind legs shove the weight forward. The horse would fall, except the front legs catch it, interrupting the fall and lifting the front of the body. Then the hind legs thrust forward again, and the front starts to fall to the ground. Except the front legs move out to prevent it.

For whatever reason, both Mia and Bandit in a controlled canter don't move their front legs far enough forward to catch their weight when they also moved their heads forward. It almost immediately felt like we were going to flip over. With Mia (until she learned better) and once in a great while with Bandit, I had to pull the head up to get our weight behind where the front legs were landing. Then we stayed balanced with the front legs catching our weight smoothly.

Both, out in the open and going straight, had no problem. Of course, they also shift into a gallop if needed.

Thinking out loud: A rider who maintains a "central balance" may keep the combined center of gravity far enough aft that an extended nose isn't an issue. Although when Mia did it, it scared the hell out of me! I was using the Australian saddle and immediately braced my thighs against the poleys and HEAVED back, throwing my shoulders back, trying to recover before we flipped. After some practice, Mia had no more issues. She never again got overbalanced to the front.

Bandit rarely does it, but he's done it more than once. Maybe 4-5 times in the last couple of years? Always in the arena. I'm left hauling back and up, hard, until he corrects. Then there won't be an issue until some months later when it happens again.

So, if Bandit was used to cantering with a very heavy rider - 50 to 100 lbs heavier than me - who probably also sat back, could he sometimes be reverting to what worked for him WHEN he had a lot more rider weight on him & that weight was sitting further back? And since I'm both lighter and further forward, could he be sometimes reverting to an old habit that doesn't make sense when I ride him?

Head angle is, I think, irrelevant. There is a narrow horizontal band of improved vision. After a LOT of time watching Cowboy, Mia and Bandit do the Lookey-Loo, I'm certain Bandit needs his nose higher to focus on the same distance. Maybe that narrow band is on a slightly different spot of his eyeball. Like today, he can have his nose above the horizontal (with slack reins) without my feeling a change in his stride.

Mia in a comfortable canter, although she shifted to a gallop a moment later because Trooper was about to pass her on the inside (outside the camera's FOV).
​






She cantered comfortably with a more extended neck than Bandit uses, but she also had a longer body. Could a smaller, short-bodied horse need to keep balance with their head and neck higher and further back? 

Don't know. I am SOOOOO not a conformation guru! Below, Trooper and I were going fast. He was nervous. IIRC, he was alternating between canters and gallops and it took 10 minutes to get him to relax. He & I are not buddies. The picture is maybe 5 years old. He is built a lot like Bandit is now.








I feel comfortable when forward. To what extent might that affect my horse? And they both have short necks. PS: Just saw @*gottatrot* 's comment. I'll need to read it over a few times...looks like some stuff I need to think about. PSS: Bandit had some HUGE issues with how they trimmed and shod his feet! I wouldn't be surprised if some of what he does is an attempt to minimize pressure on his front knees.


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## tinyliny

Neither picture you have posted, @bsms , shows an inverted horse, IMO.


this shows a horse with it's poll still far enough forward to not be compressing the neck backward, and resulting in the lower part of the neck dropping downward.












If the poll were brough back toward you by pressure on the reins, with the head in that position, or just a hard hand, the lower (under) neck will bulge forward, sort of 'drop' lower. the "S" curve of the neck will become shorter and tighter, with the lower curve being the tighter of the two halves.


If the poll moves farther forward from the rider, the top curve smooths out , and this can over cause the horse to 'lift' the bottom part of the neck, And while I don't know the mechanics of this, it causes the horse to 'engage' more, and you get that feeling of a more lifted back




Your horses are doing neither; neither hollowing nor engaging. They are just moving forward freely. That is the position they would likely take if they were just on their own, covering ground, in more or less a straight line.


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## gottatrot

I ran across this study which I had not read before:
It is about head/neck position in dressage horses and conflict behavior.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4121138/

After reading that study, I started looking at the faces of the horses instead of the bodies in an article about dressage I was reading, and I realized I was seeing a lot of unhappy horses.
















For reference: the horse pain scale:
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-Horse-Grimace-Pain-Scale-with-images-and-explanations-for-each-of-the-6-facial-action_fig2_260950013









For interest's sake, I googled a few disciplines such as barrel racing, western pleasure, dressage, jumping, endurance and looked at images. Some of those disciplines had the majority of the horses photographed showing very unhappy faces. I wonder why I didn't notice before now. A person might even choose a discipline by looking at how the horses seem to enjoy it or not.

Here are a couple of articles that some might find interesting:

https://hoovesblog.com/2014/11/16/trotting-up-a-storm/

Considering the above, it's interesting how these trots appear on this video of high level horses. What I see is strides quite unevenly matched front to back, and uneven tempos. Some you can tell would sound like four (uneven) beats if you trotted the horse on a board, because the hinds are landing a hair before the fronts. The riders are apparently aiming for an extravagant look rather than true tempo or balance through the body.


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## Knave

I like doing the dressage exercises occasionally. I think they improve my horse’s suppleness and they improve his overall performance. I don’t think he enjoys it though. Sometimes he might, for he loves new things, but rarely anymore do I introduce anything completely new.

He is a horse who wears his emotions on his sleeve. If I were to ask him to stay rounded he would be very upset. I think collection is preparedness, as I already said. Holding a horse in a rounded frame without an actual reason to be prepared makes sense as an irritation to me. Of course, a horse doing a job for which they make their own decisions will be collected on their own when necessary. Cutting, for example, requires constant thinking and reacting and therefore a horse will hold himself in that manner. The looks on many of the cutter’s faces are nasty, but usually not directed at the rider. Lol

Now, I am like @bsms, in I think a horse can choose to carry himself however he wants to most of the time. That doesn’t mean everyone cowboying believes the same, but most I know don’t pick on their horses too much. I think our horses are happy. Bones loves to work. He lets me know all about it too. Sometimes we have slow days and he gets impatient and bored. The harder the days the more he is enjoying himself. That isn’t true of most, but I guess that horses have their own personalities too.

Which brings me to this. I think some horses must love dressage. I don’t know; that’s not my world. I just have known some horses in my life who loved to be shown. There was a horse I grew up with who was the biggest show off alive. Lol. Bones is not a show off, and as spectacular of a cutting horse as I believe he is, he did not enjoy being shown. He was miserable. 

As far as improving a horse’s movement though, I think I am on the fence. Yes, as I began with, training in short periods helps a horse’s overall performance. However, I don’t think that it continues to help with extended practice. Just think about it, if a horse were asked to maintain collection for a day’s work he couldn’t possibly. He would be left with two choices: fight or fall. Even just too much training on a horse, the kind they can accomplish, but that is day after day, often creates a frustrated or soured horse.


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## bsms

I think a good rider/trainer could have taught Mia dressage by convincing her the point of doing these motions was so everyone would see how magnificent she was. She had tons of ego and liked doing things "just right". If taught to her by an understanding rider, she might have loved dressage. She would be limited in how well she could do it by her build, but I think she would enjoy going to an arena with her human to work on getting things "just right".

If you tried to teach her dressage using the "_I bought you. I paid for you. I control when or even IF you eat. You can do what you want the rest of the time, but when we ride, you're on MY time!_" approach, she'd have hated it.

I think it was @SueC who pointed out that dancing isn't efficient, but it can be fun. But it would take a perverted personality to enjoy dancing with a slave who smiled while dancing because you would whip her if she didn't smile! I honestly don't see too much wrong with teaching a horse exaggerated movements IF the horse can be taught to enjoy performing them. I think horses CAN enjoy dressage, even in its more extreme forms, and if both horse & rider are enjoying themselves, I have no cause for complaint!

My objections have always come from being told dressage is THE way to ride a horse and any other way is harmful to the horse. That a horse whose head is at a 45 degree angle is uncontrolled, and that it's back is being destroyed by bad riding. The picture below comes from the link @gottatrot posted. At the link, the commentator is mostly positive, but notes "_If the horse engaged more (rather than swinging the legs a bit like a leg mover vs a back mover), the back would round, the haunch would lower (it’s a bit in the air here), weight would be transferred rearward, and the front end would lift (and loosen)._"










It puts me in mind of someone with tension in the body FOR A PURPOSE. Not bad tension, but good tension, like this:










I suppose for dressage, that trot needs some work. But it is a good, athletic horse moving with a purpose - as I'm sure the person discussing it would agree. Much of my objection to "round" is rooted in the idea that "round" is also "essential".

I'll also note, however, that a lot of us - including me - can think a horse is having fun when the horse is really just submitting. I think a lot of sport horses act in submission. A number of trail horses too.


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## SueC

Bingo, @*bsms* ! Excellent post. :clap:

Excellent posts all around! What a great discussion this is. Preaching to the choir, of course. ;-) We need a TARDIS so we can do some trails together.











I think it's so lucky that where I learnt to ride as a young kid wasn't just a competition robot type riding school. Yes we learnt dressage, but this rural school really promoted the value of trail riding for horse and rider recreation and exercise. They would have thought it was cruel to have their horses, indeed any horses, confined to the arena most of their lives. We novice riders started in the arena so we would learn some basics and have a relatively soft place to fall off on, but the aim was to get competent enough to get on a trail ASAP and do more than just arena exercises. Having a horse on the bit was never an objective on the trail; we'd have received a rightful earbashing to get out of our horses' mouths.

I can really understand, looking back, why Ursula Bruns spoke up about that ambition-fuelled culture, and tried to encourage people to enjoy their riding along with their horse rather than focus on competitions. Another voice I grew up with was Sweden's Lisbeth Pahnke, who did ride competitively most of her life (and still does I believe, in her 70s now), but for her competitions were a focus on improving her riding and her partnership with her horse, and working towards goals; and trail riding was where everyone let their hair down on a regular basis, and relaxed in nature. Very Scandinavian.  

And a total pleasure to chat to as well. I wrote to her when I turned 40 to tell her what a big influence she'd had on me, and she actually wrote back to have a lovely exchange on life and horses. It was such a pity her books weren't translated into English, because so many kids growing up in continental Europe read her books (autobiography loosely disguised as horse novels) and were influenced by her thinking. She said there weren't any decent horse novels around in Sweden at the time so she thought she'd write some - educational ones with a lot of philosophical and ethical backbone and without the sickly icing. Haven't found anything like it in the English language.

Two circus ponies were talking about the progress of their trainer. "He's coming along well," said the first. "I've got him to the point where every time I do a pirouette, he gives me a carrot. I wonder what else I can try out on him."


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## bsms

In the "just because" category, a quote from Common Sense Horsemanship:



> James Fillis' book BREAKING AND RIDING, which was our principal text book in the [pre-World War One Russian] Cavalry School, and which is still reprinted today, is a stimulating presentation of complicated riding; one can find all sorts of ideas in it. You will read, for instance, that "the human voice has a great influence on the horse" and that "I am the resolute enemy of keeping the horse always collected," but such phrases are completely lost among illustrations of fully collected horses doing Piaffe or cantering backwards and innumerable statements like this:
> 
> "...The means for stopping the horse is always the same namely, raise the snaffle reins while drawing them back with an equal feeling on both reins, so as to bring the weight on the hindquarters; at the same time, close both legs strongly to bring the hocks under the animal's body, and feel the curb reins. The horse is then between the hands and legs."
> 
> The majority of my contemporaries still can't get rid of this idea of "leading the horse between the hands and legs" no matter where or when, even when hacking.
> 
> I have to admit that I myself do not halt my horse by these elaborate means when I hack, although I know how to do it and all my horses have been schooled to it also. As a rule, when I hack my horse, not as a part of his training but just to enjoy a pleasant morning in the fields and woods, I merely say "whoa," and slightly check the reins to make the horse halt while I am deciding whether to take a path going to the right or to continue straight. And what have I missed by halting the horse this way?
> 
> Precisely nothing. My horse has halted softly and that is the main thing. Whether he halted with the neck low or high, with the hindquarters under him or not seem to me to be scholastic details which may be important in schooling or in some competitions but which, on this morning, have no connection with my desire to enjoy nature in the company of my horse. Fine riding has its place, but it is out of place to consider it imperative every time one is in the saddle.
> 
> I never was James Fillis pupil and I like to think that he, himself a great master, had a flexible mind and that his teaching would have been accordingly flexible. But this was not the case among his passionately devoted followers, and my teachers made a real fetish of the principle of "riding the horse all the time." This resulted, in my case anyway, in an unhappy horse and in my inability to let the horse really go; a fault it took me years to get rid of.
> 
> I wouldn't devote so many lines to the past were it not for the fact that even today some teachers awkwardly combine modern riding with Filiis' principles of constant and elaborate domination of the horse by the rider.


Also:


> There is another term which is somewhat more definite: a "horseman." The very word implies the cooperation of two beings and it always sounds to me as if it designated some sort of partnership between them, instead of the mere mastery of the one by the other. To me a horseman is not necessarily a man who uses his aids artistically, but rather a human being who practices his riding on the basis of complete consideration of his mount's abilities and limitations.
> 
> If one accepts the term horseman in this sense then a High School rider may be a horseman and may not be; the same applies to the primitive tribesman and the latter, despite the simplicity of his aims, may happen to be a better horseman than an educated rider of the Western world. For instance, a man who cripples his horse in a supreme effort to win in a competition may be considered a sportsman (at least by some), and may be a good rider, but his lack of consideration of the horse deprives him of the right to be called a horseman.
> 
> Many years ago I heard somewhere a definition of horsemanship which I have repeated ever since. It runs: "Horsemanship consists of obtaining from the horse the best possible performance, using the least of his nervous and physical energies." This definition should be accompanied by the notation that this ideal performance can be obtained only through a happy combination of schooling, control and seat. Hence every rational method of riding consists of a harmonious use of these three elements.
> 
> This definition seems to imply that, for instance, clearing a 4'6" course while making the horse nervous and over-jumping every fence is not good riding. But, judging by the applause which normally follows such a winning round, the spirit of this definition obviously is not shared by all, a horseman's appreciation of riding is not general, while a competitor's point of view is common and although we refer, in prose and verse, to the horse as a "noble animal" our feelings toward him often go no deeper than beautiful phrases. In actuality the horse is frequently an abused animal.


PS: Those come from a book published 55 years ago.


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## bsms

I mentioned a while back trying shorter stirrups and not being thrilled with the results. I tried it again today, but this time my wife was available to take a video (< 4 min). That was ample time to SEE what I felt before - that the cantle tended to slide against my butt. I can see how it COULD work with a different saddle, but don't think it will be worth repeating in THIS saddle. Dropped the stirrups back down after the ride.

Bandit got his shoes off yesterday. I think he feels better, on the whole, shoeless. But I also think his feet needed some rest time, so I don't regret having him shod the last 6 weeks. One thing I liked about the video is Bandit's chest seems broader looking to me. I think he's improving in some ways. And of course, we also had a couple of pit stops because the recent rain has given us green grass, and it wouldn't be fair to ask a horse who almost never gets to eat fresh grass to pass up the opportunity. Only rode 20 minutes total today. I was wet with sweat by the end. PS: The noise in the background is a garbage truck collecting trash.


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## bsms

A couple of still pictures the wife took today:








​ 









​Wish I could photoshop my spherical aspect away. Diet & Exercise! Diet & Exercise! Yeah...right. Next thing will be to stop eating bacon and pizza, which we all know are two of the fundamental food groups. But Bandit is doing OK. Bandit was strolling in the last picture, but compare to 3 years ago:
​


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## egrogan

Wow- the change in him is obvious here. I am a sucker for a bay, but he's looking really fit and happy!


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## gottatrot

> To me a horseman is not necessarily a man who uses his aids artistically, but rather a human being who practices his riding on the basis of complete consideration of his mount's abilities and limitations.


Yes!

Agree that you'd want a little longer saddle to ride with your stirrups that length. That being said, it did not look awkward and you used your body well. You'll notice that jumpers who need to use very short stirrups also use saddles with very flat cantles so the seat doesn't interfere with their riding. 

No matter what someone says, I always look at their horses. It doesn't matter if you say you're riding correctly or doing this and that, if the horse's body is not looking better the longer you have the horse, then it's not working. Bandit has put on muscle in all the right places. Your attention to using tack he likes, a well fitting saddle, hoof care, and good riding have done him a world of good.


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## SueC

A couple of observations:

Looove that quote @gottatrot also re-quoted! 

Bandit is looking F-A-B-U-L-O-U-S. (Hope I can get back on my horse before the spring flush or I'll have to lock him in a "Jenny Craig Paddock" (Jenny Craig is a famous WA weight loss / lifestyle business) so he doesn't turn into a truffle...

Good nutrition and exercise are great, but when you're middle aged you also definitely need a copy of _The Velveteen Rabbit_ in your library. Do you have one?

It gives me sorrow to see a lot of people I know and love leaving their physical prime, and being saddled with convex bellies they never had before and with double chins and loss of hair and what have you, and to remember how beautiful they looked in their 30s. But on the other hand: Beautiful young people are a work of nature, beautiful old people are a work of art. And - the Velveteen Rabbit lesson:


_“Real isn't how you are made,' said the Skin Horse. 'It's a thing that happens to you. When a child loves you for a long, long time, not just to play with, but REALLY loves you, then you become Real.'

'Does it hurt?' asked the Rabbit. 

'Sometimes,' said the Skin Horse, for he was always truthful. 'When you are Real you don't mind being hurt.' 

'Does it happen all at once, like being wound up,' he asked, 'or bit by bit?' 

'It doesn't happen all at once,' said the Skin Horse. 'You become. It takes a long time. That's why it doesn't happen often to people who break easily, or have sharp edges, or who have to be carefully kept. Generally, by the time you are Real, most of your hair has been loved off, and your eyes drop out and you get loose in the joints and very shabby. But these things don't matter at all, because once you are Real you can't be ugly, except to people who don't understand.” 
_― Margery Williams Bianco, The Velveteen Rabbit


If all else fails, we need to do what Australian cartoonist Michael Leunig did: Blame the mirror!


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## bsms

Tried lowering the stirrups. If the other day was the "Baby Bear" setting, today we used the "Daddy Bear" setting. The video (2 1/2 minutes) is blurry. My wife zoomed in at the beginning. Makes things bigger but MUCH blurrier! 

Bandit was willing enough this morning, but really saw no reason to zip around when there was GREEN FRESH GRASS growing in southern Arizona! I mean...why EXERCISE when you can EAT? After all, the Bible says, "_The wicked run away when no one is chasing them..._" (Prov 28.1) - and Bandit isn't wicked, and no one was chasing him, so...:thumbsup: Found it hard to argue with him on that one.

Mostly jogged. Did a few brief canters, but his heart wasn't in it. His heart was mostly aligned with his stomach, which was much more interested in grazing. My wife filmed about 3 minutes total. I rode another 15, then I was soaked with sweat. So we quit. I'm also NOT wearing the same T-shirt as last time. It is the ex-military guy in me. A certain brand of T-shirt fits me well and is durable. So...buy a lot of them. Wear the same thing every day. If I go to town, I'll toss a long sleeve cotton shirt over it, but otherwise my UOD - Uniform of the Day - is beige T-shirt, jeans, boots or sneakers.






I like the longer setting better, although the "Momma Bear" setting is probably best. The nice thing about this setting is it gives me good contact from the bottom of one calf all the way over to the bottom of the other calf. Combined with the grippy nature of the Abetta, it is pretty secure. Bandit obviously does not object or worry about it. I can't brace, which is my biggest fault in riding. The next hole lower would be the "No Stirrup" setting since I barely maintain contact as it is. 

I like Littauer & what he wrote about the Forward Seat, but he oversold it. I can understand why. He hated the mixing of the dressage seat for the flats and the forward seat being used as a "jump seat", which is too common today. OTOH, for a trail rider who is neither chasing hounds nor being chased by dragons, I think the main benefit of the forward seat is getting in balance with the horse. This setting does it without my needing to lean forward as much - and that is a good thing for an old guy riding 20 minutes, let alone riding 90 minutes out where the cactus grows! It is secure, comfortable, balanced with Bandit and my horse doesn't complain. It also measures out to be identical to the stirrup length in my leather western saddle that I used riding Mia in the desert. It just works for me & my horse where we ride. Hard to argue with that! :winetime:

PS: Used Mia's Billy Allen curb bit today. I think it is good for Bandit to practice some riding with a bit. If I ever sell him, he's likely to be ridden by someone who uses a bit. I wanted to see how much the shanks moved while riding, which would tell me if my hand was following his head well. But...BLURRY! Oh well. The Wife came out and filmed it even though she sees little reason to fuss over riding. Can't complain too much. Well...I can, but after 31 years of marriage she doesn't sweat my complaining too much!

Oh...and I was also pleased with Bandit's canter transitions, such as they were. He sometimes reverts to old habits and hurdles himself into a canter, but today every transition was smooth and easy to ride. He has a slow canter that I think would be a great "western pleasure lope" - at least, it pleases ME. But I don't think we'd win any medals! :rofl: But in all seriousness, I could have sipped from a Diet Coke while he transitioned to a canter today. How nice is that! I used two hands a couple of times but could have just as easily done 100% with one hand. He may have lacked enthusiasm to zip around our tiny arena, but *he was a beautiful horse to ride today. Just too good-natured to fuss even though he'd have preferred some serious Nom-Nom-Nom time!*

:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:​


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## tinyliny

I liked the canter transitions, too. he seems to just read your mind.


This is my impression, and you might think I'm way out there, well off base, but I get the feeling from watching your last two videos that he is tentative about going forward because of how forward you are tipping in your upper body. It looks as if YOU are tentative in that position, and that you are riding in a defensive position, that makes you kind of 'tip' forward if he slows down, which he does, but I think he is doing that because he feels you coming out of balance a bit, and he's 'taking care of his rider'. your body is not telling him to commit to going forward and stay that way.



I'm not in the saddle, to feel what's going on, but that's how it looks to me.
I'm not sure the stirrup length made a lot of difference in that. maybe the longer one was a bit better.


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## bsms

That isn't how it feels to me. His hesitations today were very much food-oriented. When we stopped, he usually got to eat some grass. He was far more interested in eating grass than in moving. So...we compromised, as we usually do. The small size of the arena means his canter is almost in a continuous turn and even trotting straight cannot last long. A more traditional approach would be to say, "_Sorry, but I need you to do 8 laps so I can get my work done._" But these last two rides mainly involved thinking about how changing stirrup lengths a few holes affects my balance and his willingness. And a half-lap would allow me to do that.

In terms of lean, let me use this picture from a year ago with a line added.








​ 
A dressage seat would expect that vertical line to go from heel to hip to shoulder to ear. A forward seat approach, as taught by Littauer or Chamberlin, would expect me to lean a little MORE with a little more "fold". I put two lines in, one based on my heel and one based on my stirrup. IIRC, the cavalry taught the red line should pass behind my knee (which it does) and be the balance point. I tend to think about the black line and want to stay a little behind it. I always prefer a slightly defensive seat, while at the same time trying to honor this from the US Cavalry's manual on equitation, undoubtedly written by then Lt Col Harry Chamberlin:

_"Cavalry Manual Test:

How to Test Correctness of Rider's Position: If the rider is in balance as a result of his upper body's being properly inclined forward, he is able at the walk, trot or gallop, WITHOUT FIRST LEANING FARTHER FORWARD and without pulling on the reins, to stand in his stirrups with all his weight in his depressed heels.

__ In executing this exercise the seat is raised just clear of the saddle by stiffening the knees but keep them partly flexed. The upper body REMAINS inclined forward at the hips. At the trot on hand should touch the horse's neck LIGHTLY to assist in remaining in balance. At the walk or gallop [canter] the rider, if his seat is correct, should be able to stand in his stirrups without the aid of his hand. A rider, who can execute the above exercise at all gaits and without first changing inclination, is in balance and never "behind his horse". The majority of those NOT in this position partly maintain their balance by hanging on to the reins, thus unnecessarily punishing their horses' mouths as well as their backs._" 

"Standing in the stirrups" is a bit different than what many now call two point because the goal was to literally be standing in your stirrups, with as much of your weight as possible going there. Then...balance there!

As done at a trot, per the Cavalry:








That is NOT traditional western riding. For my purposes, I use a forward seat in a trot or canter (or gallop, on the rare times we hit a gallop). I just sit for a walk, which is most of what we do. Unless we're in the arena, when I lean a little at a walk too, because we rarely walk very far.

Chamberlin also wrote this:

"...For the beginner, it is well to have the stirrups a little on the long side, rather than too short, as this permits, and almost forces the rider to work the thighs and knees well down around the horse, and thus overcome the usual instinctive tendency to raise the knees, which makes the seat unstable and weakens the grip of the knee and calves. It is the ability to grip with the calves of the legs, and to a much lesser extent with the knees and thighs, that provides the strength of seat through which a good rider stays with his horse when difficulties, such as shying, plunging, stumbling, bucking or jumping arise. No matter how much the stirrups are shortened, it must be understood that the stirrup-straps, when the seat is correct, always remain vertical, and that as a result of shorter stirrups, the knees, though raised, go very little farther to the front....as the stirrups are shortened, *the seat and buttocks are necessarily pushed farther back on the cantle. This demands more forward inclination of the body from the hips*..."

That is what I experienced in these last two rides. Shortening two holes (raising the stirrups 1.5 inches higher on the horse in the Abetta) requires more fold. My "seat and buttocks are necessarily pushed farther back on the cantle" - which is not a good thing with a 4" steep cantle! I also prefer the longer setting because of what he says:

_It is the ability to grip with the calves of the legs, and to a much lesser extent with the knees and thighs, that provides the strength of seat through which a good rider stays with his horse when difficulties, such as shying, plunging, stumbling, bucking or jumping arise._ I think that is true, particularly when that grip is automatic, due to gravity rather than muscular squeezing. If it exists thru gravity, then I don't need to do anything to have it from the moment a spook starts.

The other thing I wanted to know was if Bandit would feel inhibited from not "freeing up his back" by getting off it. Hard to say when there was grass there - beautiful, fresh green grass, so rare for a desert horse to see! On the whole, though....I think he shifted gears earlier when I'm deeper in the saddle. So if I want a big, extended trot instead of a lope, I really ought to get further off his back (which means getting a flatter saddle, I think). But if I don't care about how he achieves a given speed, if a lope at 7 mph is fine with me instead of a 7 mph trot, then longer is better.

I've concluded a forward seat, as taught in the 1930s, involves two aspects: Center of gravity forward, placing it over the horse's, and getting high enough off the back to free it up. But for MY purposes, I can keep Bandit content, flowing and balanced by doing the first and not caring about the second. The more I experiment, the more I believe getting off the horse's back helps it a tiny amount, and they can mostly compensate for it by changing gears a little earlier. That might account for why western horses "Jog, Lope, Gallop" while English ones "Trot, Canter, Gallop".

This is probably a much longer answer, @tinyliny, than you have an interest in reading. But this sort of thinking out loud, and the discipline of WRITING it down, helps me to clarify WHAT I think, and WHY I think it. I really appreciate your comment because it forced me to sit back at my desk and think!


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## bsms

I just got Bertalan de Nemethy's book on training jumpers, and am very disappointed in it. Within a few pages, it fell into what is (sorry, dressage lovers) a fundamental flaw in dressage theory, even more so when applied to the forward seat. He writes:

"_The horse's natural balance can be maintained only if its weight is evenly distributed between its right and left pairs of legs, as well as between the forelegs and hind legs. When the horse's hindquarters are more engaged by the rider's influence, and its hind legs reach closer to the center of gravity line under its body, its hindquarters will sink, its center of gravity will move back, and its forehand will thus become somewhat relieved of carrying the added weight. Consequently, the horse will not need to accelerate, since less weight will be supported by its forehand and its natural balance can be preserved._" - page 9

*Someone can do great things as a rider or trainer and do so more by accident than by accurate thought!* Consider:

"_The horse's natural balance can be maintained only if its weight is evenly distributed between...the forelegs and hind legs_". As an experiment, stand with one leg back and one leg forward. Maintain equal weight on each leg. While maintaining equal weight on both legs, move forward.

You cannot. 50-60 years before he wrote that, folks wrote about displaced equilibrium and how it makes movement possible. A fully balanced object does not move. It MUST shove it's weight past its balance, and then move the legs to keep it from falling. This is how we move. It is how horses move.

"_When the horse's hindquarters are more engaged by the rider's influence, and its hind legs reach closer to the center of gravity line under its body, its hindquarters will sink..." _ Well, yes, a horse reaching under with the hind legs has its rear tuck under because that tucking is needed to get the legs that far forward. But when the hind legs are that far forward, they are NOT supporting weight! At that stage, they are decelerating the horse. AS they come more under the hind end, they support weight. As then continue to push, they shove the horse forward.

Horses accelerate when the pushing is shoving the horse's weight further forward, which then requires the front legs to extend further out to keep it from falling. When I want to rund faster, as a human, I shove harder with my leg, putting more weight forward, then catch it with an extended front leg. But I'm balanced when accelerating, because I do interrupt the fall with my forward leg. A galloping horse IS BALANCED! A galloping horse - if a horse other than Mia, and maybe Mia now - is not out of control or unbalanced!

Here is another section, caught totally by chance, just letting the book fall open:

"_In the rising position, the weight of the rider is supported primarily by his knees., while the rest of his weight is distributed through his thighs and calves, with some weight (though not a significant amount) resting in the stirrups._" - page 38 

His focus was on showjumping, and as Littauer wrote, modern showjumping has created artificial solutions to highly artificial problems. This is essentially the Italian school of riding which emphasized a totally fixed knee and gripping to keep as much weight there as possible. Littauer's point was that while a superbly athletic rider - as all top riders must be - can make that work very well for a horse over jumps. But a normal recreational rider, which included many of his students (and me), had neither the reflexes, strength, innate balance and time in the saddle to make it work. 

Chamberlin's goal was to teach cavalrymen to ride well, not to win shows. It involved staying safe on horses who might spook, spin, buck, etc - horses more like my own than top-level showjumpers. SECURITY for the average human rider was important to both, particularly since both were in the pre-helmet days.

This is where I get to annoy jumpers instead of just annoying dressage riders. What a great rider does with a great horse to get a great performance is NOT something I can question. Or should question. But neither is it a good idea for average humans on average horses to imitate! Littauer rejected it precisely because his students who tried it tended to go face first into the ground. Falling head first in open terrain without a helmet can become suicidal. So while he understood why some great show jumpers did it that way, he taught a very different approach.

Yet on this forum and in books and video, I see folks regularly teaching to ride with a fixed knee - to beginning riders riding Craigslist horses.

PS: "_his weight is distributed through his thighs and calves" _Take a look at my avatar. Please explain how my CALVES can support weight!


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## tinyliny

I'm sorry, I have had my afternoon whiskey on the rocks and don't have the focus to read all that you posted. I think the forward seat , so eloquently written about, is for when the horse is really moving! like, moving with so much forward imputus that you lean forward to become one with the horse. But, your horse is not moving like that, . . so . . . that is why you look TOO far forward for the situation.


please excuse me if I have insulted you. I often say things , with total sincerity, that I have no idea are actually . . . well . . not ok.


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## Knave

@tinyliny I don’t think anyone would ever accuse you of being intentionally insulting. I appreciate your kindness. I always enjoy reading what you write. 
@bsms I am not sure that one glove fits all. I say this because I owned a very forward and catty little mare (super hot and super awesome lol) that I often rode standing in my stirrups. I rode her for years, and sometimes I would hear a comment about ‘how I rode,’ but luckily I was at an age I could care less considering I won whatever I competed on with her and I could get all of my work done. She was a cool mare, and that’s how I looked at it.

Then I rode other horses, who I found myself riding in a more approved of manner. General came along, and something about him made me ride differently, and in a way that occasionally saw commentary. It wasn’t a forward manner, but I can’t describe what it was. Bones came along and again I was sitting in the saddle in a politically correct way (unless we were struggling, like leads, where I looked like a moron trying to create a body shape) Lol. 

We own a horse called Beamer. Whoever rides him, excepting my oldest daughter who has the posture of a queen, leans forward and stands in the stirrups. He carries himself like an old movie horse too. Head high, eyes wide, and always ready to move. 

Anyways, what’s taken me an hour on my soapbox to get to, I don’t think there is one right way. If a person can do their work and their horse can do its work and everyone is happy then whatever works actually works.


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## tinyliny

makes me want to ride some other horses, to feel what it's like. Too long on the same horse, not so good for a rider, me thinks.


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## Knave

@tinyliny I am sure it is good to ride lots of horses, but I think it’s good to ride just one too. It is nice to be able to learn a horse inside and out and to have a ton of confidence in him.


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## bsms

Not insulted, but I don't think I am too far forward. The center of gravity of a horse is not based on speed. Speed has some effect, but a horse can be heavy on the forehand at a walk. Or shift its weight back somewhat, although it takes effort. 

In terms of what it takes to be balanced WITH the horse - to match the rider's balance to the horse's, whatever it is at a given point of time - what Chamberlin wrote in the Army manual was correct. An excellent test is to see if one can stand in the stirrups without needing to first lean further forward. And for most riders, the answer is no.

I don't agree with all he says, but Jochen Schleese provides this picture and his basic concept is correct:









https://dressagetoday.com/lifestyle/jochen-schleese-saddle-fitting-tip-balance-and-rider-position​ 
The Forward System of riding has stirrups mounted more forward and the rider leans forward to match the horse. Because in a naturally balanced horse, no one has their rump over the horse's center of gravity.

I've been trying to type this out while also dealing with family, which may be a good thing. @Knave writes:

"_Then I rode other horses, who I found myself riding in a more approved of manner. General came along, and something about him made me ride differently...We own a horse called Beamer. Whoever rides him, excepting my oldest daughter who has the posture of a queen, leans forward and stands in the stirrups. He carries himself like an old movie horse too._"

Each horse will have a somewhat different balance and different way of moving. Bandit's center of gravity changes constantly, so standing in my stirrups forces me to be aware and to anticipate his next change - or suffer the consequences! But when I take a random picture and draw a straight line up from the heel or stirrup, I'm leaning about what it takes to be balanced over my stirrup. Any less lean would put more weight on my rump and his loin:








​
Traditional western riding does put one "behind the horse". That isn't bad if your riding may involve a horse changing directions suddenly (for which they tend to shift their weight back briefly), or a horse who turns suddenly, or just wanting more options if the horse stumbles. Those are valid concerns. I like being at least a little behind my horse. Much more so in the open, particularly if he starts acting nervous. And there is NO WAY someone could cut cattle without being behind. When I ride Bandit down a residential street, I'm ALWAYS well "behind my horse"! Deliberately.

Came across this 30 minute video:


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## bsms

Screenshot from today's video with Bandit at a jog:








​ 
That is probably about as vertical as I'll ever ride a trot. And either the picture is blurry or I've had an evening whiskey on the rocks! I do find longer stirrups = more vertical, possible because I ride a little more forward in the saddle. Less against the cantle and less folding action. It is like the longer stirrups suck me forward so my crotch is closer to the swells.

PS - On my wish list, but things I'll probably never get to do: Cutting cattle and Campdrafting.


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## knightrider

> @tinyliny I am sure it is good to ride lots of horses, but I think it’s good to ride just one too. It is nice to be able to learn a horse inside and out and to have a ton of confidence in him.


This is what I was trying to say with two long posts. You summed it all up with one concise and perfect sentence!

https://www.horseforum.com/new-horses/taking-lessons-versus-having-your-own-792545/


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## gottatrot

I really believe in feeling the horse's center and balance and riding with that. It's not a static point, and can change as a horse gets more fit or uses himself differently. As with @Knave, I've noticed that various horses I've ridden require that I sit differently for balance.

I was leaning back a bit more on Hero than I am currently, because his balance is changing some as he gets stronger. It's highly individualized, I believe, because your balance is going to be different than mine depending on the length of your legs and torso, and how your fat and muscle is distributed. 

That's why I think it would be more useful to teach people principles of riding instead of trying to get people to look the same. An example of a principle would be to keep your spine in natural alignment, and bend forward at the hips only. Then it doesn't really matter if you need to lean back a little or forward to match the horse's movement, because you won't be hurting your back. Instead of saying toes out or in, they should say never twist your joints but keep them aligned with your long bones.


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## bsms

They need a "love" button, @gottatrot! I often quote Littauer because so much of what he wrote has been accurate when I get on my horse. 

"_Throughout this book you will often read that the forward seat unites the rider with the horse moving ahead in a forward balance. If you read Chapter III, you will know that the above phrase is much more intricate than it sounds for the horse's balance is fluid, and correspondingly fluid must perforce be the rider's seat. The illustrations depicting the mechanics of the forward seat should be accepted with the understanding that they all represent really a moment - an ideal *moment* but not a *movement*. 

In actuality neither the horse nor the rider are static; a slow-motion picture camera shows the split seconds during which both rider and horse are caught in such a position as would not seem true to the naked eye. All the above is said here to caution you not to be a wooden soldier and freeze in position as a rider in your favorite picture. After all, a good seat is primarily important as one of the means of riding well. 

At first when learning how to ride you must think about your position all the time, and in this period of your learning your picture matters a great deal. But later, when the contour of your position is correct, when your spring, grip, balance, etc. are working effectively, *then there are only two criteria of your position; a) are you in fluid balance and rhythm with your horse or not? b) does your seat enable you to control your horse efficiently?*_"

I often choose to be "behind my horse" as a defense, or in anticipation of my horse 'going behind' in the very near future! But I love a forward seat for what is probably the same reason a lot of dressage riders love riding a collected horse. Sounds strange, but...

When I get my balance over Mia/Bandit and over my stirrups, regardless of their length, and my horse starts to flow, it feels like a river flowing freely beneath me. My horse doesn't have to pay attention to me or worry about me, because he is doing what he was born to do and I am enjoying his enjoyment - of being a powerful animal enjoying his own grace and strength.

That unity is what I think many dressage riders love about a collected gait - although it is just as available, maybe more so, by shifting one's weight over the horse's forward balance. When it feels like your horse can use his strength and energy to do anything, and you're a fly going along for the ride, yet encouraging him...it is wonderful. My primary goal in riding is enjoying my horse's company. But a big second comes from those times where we are united!

I've obviously bounced around on "stirrup length". A result of these last two rides, comparing them, is that I don't think it really matters. One allows me to be deeper and my horse will shift gears earlier. The other allows for a more animated trot, perhaps, *but it doesn't matter to Bandit so it shouldn't matter to me*. Pick a length based on where and how we are going to ride - the desert? The arena? Hope to go fast down a wash? Or pick our way between cactus? Shorter or longer can fine-tune a ride, but as long as I'm "with my horse", Bandit will adjust and be "with me"! 

:cheers:​


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## Zexious

Bandit sure is cute! <3


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## bsms

I've ridden Bandit briefly solo in the desert the last couple of days. He gets tense, but not unbearably so. We're only going out for about 20-25 minutes right now. We've had a lot of rain recently, so mud in the washes we normally ride in. Mud mixed with large rocks and a nervous horse, solo and helmetless is not a good mix. So we've stayed out of the mud, on the drier spots, and I figure if all we do is even 15 minutes, then 15 minutes solo is better than NO minutes solo. 

Bandit doesn't enjoy it now, but I think he could enjoy it - if it becomes "Old Hat". From the wonderful Tom Roberts:

=========================​ _
“Old Hat” is another expression I will repeatedly use to indicate the horse's attitude to a previous experience. He (I pretend) says: “Old Hat!” whenever he is asked to do, again, something he has already proved to be not objectionable.

The “Old Hat” technique is literally used in hundreds of ways – as you will read later on. It means we do something (or get the horse to do something) new – and then before anything can go wrong or he becomes upset, we “End-the-Lesson.”

Next time he is in a similar position, he remembers nothing unpleasant resulted from the first occasion, and he remains calm. A few repetitions and he accepts it (whatever it is) as “Old Hat.”

An instance: we separate a foal from its dam for a few moments. Before the foal has time to become very excited at finding itself alone, we put them together again. Tomorrow or on some other occasion, we separate them again and once more put them together after a short period. We do this several times and after a while the foal ceases to worry. “It's 'Old Hat' - nothing to worry about, we'll get together again later on!” seems to be the reaction.

__ This is a characteristic of the horse. Recognize it and keep it in mind. *From it we learn to repeat lessons rather than to prolong them – particularly if what we are doing or getting the horse to do is exciting or frightening to him.*_
===================================​
So we're working on making it "Old Hat". But as an added wrinkle today, we did 3 short canters. He cantered beautifully. It is SOOO much easier to canter straight ahead than to always be turning! Happily, he slowed each time I said "Easy", so he's learning to canter quickly in the open, by himself, and then slow on a verbal cue. Or to slow because rocks are ahead. Either way, if he slows WHEN I give a verbal cue, he's learning TO slow when I give a verbal cue.

Got some new stirrups. It is hard to be vain when your saddle is under $400 new, and adding stirrups that are under $40 doesn't exactly make me special. But I like them. They are 3.5 inches front to back, so stirrup placement on the foot become almost irrelevant - they cover from the base of my toes almost back to my heel. I've kept the "Papa Bear" setting:








On a not so happy note, Bandit did a few nervous trots today as well. Don't think he inverted his back, but he braced it rigid and had an inverted neck. Who needs reins when a horse does that? Might as well grab the bit or rings in my hands!

So I took out some slack, but left him with a little and he slowed on his own each time after 30-40 yards. I think if I had taken control, he'd have increased his nervousness. But sometimes his nervousness will go up if I don't take control, so each time it is a guess about what is right. I pretty much try one thing, and if it seems things are going downhill, then I try something different before we go off an emotional cliff.

It certainly is not "Old Hat" for either of us yet, but my plan is to try to ride him out solo at least 3 times a week. I also put Cowboy back in the corral with the big horses a few days ago. The flies were eating Cowboy alive. Previous attempts at mixing them were dramatic. This time...Trooper accepted Cowboy. Bandit doesn't like him, but they don't fight. Just stay apart and Cowboy clears out fast when Bandit pins his ears. Cowboy is starting to look healthier, so he stays. Trooper is calmer when Bandit leaves if Cowboy is there with him.


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## SueC

bsms said:


> On a not so happy note, Bandit did a few nervous trots today as well. Don't think he inverted his back, but he braced it rigid and had an inverted neck. Who needs reins when a horse does that? Might as well grab the bit or rings in my hands!



Or the ears!  :rofl:


Not a very comfortable thing. You'll get through it and out the other end of this phase though!


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## bsms

Good point! Since we're bitless, I might as well grab his ears! But we are working thru things. Yesterday we went out for 90 minutes with Trooper and Cowboy. I put Cowboy back in the same corral as the other two. Trooper is quite willing to accept Cowboy. Bandit...not so much. But they aren't fighting, at least. And on the trail yesterday, Trooper and Cowboy acted like old pals. Bandit and I were often well ahead. We'd trot or canter 100 yards, and the other two would...stroll. Which made their riders happy, while I felt happy on Bandit.

He did things calmly yesterday that would have exploded his mind 2 years ago. I found myself thinking again and again how nice it was to be riding such a sane horse!

I now need to work on two things: Going solo, and feeling confident in hoof boots. If I can get him totally comfortable in hoof boots, there will be a lot of places where we can canter 200 yards. That will probably be as good as it can get around here. But I think he'd like it. And I think the solo work we've done is already paying dividends. I don't know how long it will take, but I think we can get to where we regularly canter solo, self-controlled, for a few hundred yards. Then walk, and maybe canter again a little further down the trail. Not much by most people's standards. But it would be a big improvement. For me, and for Bandit!


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## Knave

I think it will be great as you gain confidence. I think of my world as getting bigger sometimes. Now, I’ve always been required to do my job alone if necessary and not take into consideration where I am or who I happen to be riding, but that didn’t mean I always felt good doing so. Once I was a grown up and riding some hard horses I second guessed things sometimes, and I often had unfun rides.

So, I always did what I had to, but when I was riding just for fun or training I kept it within certain types of boundaries. I rode mostly in the arena and worked on different training things. Often someone would look over the fence with some advice and everything always was in seeking perfection. 

Now I made my world bigger. Almost anywhere I can ride to around here feels like backyard anymore, and Bones doesn’t look at it at all, and I can work on whatever I want to. I can take away the need for perfection and just ride and have fun. It doesn’t matter if his hip is held in just so or anything of the sort. What’s the funniest thing about it is the level of improvement without the pressure of perfection.

For example, I always felt nervous roping. Everything had to be just so. I was a decent enough roper, but not overly special. In high school I was roping the dummy a certain amount of times and practicing team roping most nights. It was fun to be around everyone roping, but I was also very nervous about performing well. 

Then, the last couple colts I started I spent a lot of time just messing around with a rope. I drug a ton of things and threw my rope, not in an effort to catch anything, but just to get my horses more confident about me throwing it. I carried it around riding and played with it for the first time. It never was really play for me. It didn’t take too long for me to notice my roping improved by leaps. I wasn’t as nervous anymore, and I didn’t struggle with the same things. Bones loves a rope. He loves to rope anything and can pull as good as any horse I’ve seen. So, the play without pressure improved both of our performance ability.

That’s the thing. You will get confident as you spend time doing it, and the less you worry about perfection the closer you will come.


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## bsms

Cowboy and Trooper, and horses knowing more than scientists give them credit for:

The main reason I put Cowboy back in with the others was because the flies were eating Cowboy alive. He was getting covered with sores on his face, neck and chest where he rubs against metal panels for relief. I was worried that Bandit would attack him. Bandit HAS made Cowboy move a lot, but it settled pretty quick into "If Bandit pins his ears, Cowboy needs to move!"

Meanwhile...a bunch of times now, we've looked out and seen Trooper nuzzling and licking Cowboy, always in places where Cowboy has scabs. After a few days, Cowboy seems to be healing. And Trooper really LOOKS like he is an RN, taking care of a patient. I never saw them do this when Cowboy was 100% healthy. But now, every couple of hours, we can see Trooper tending to Cowboy. 

And when he does, Bandit stands on the far side of the corral, studiously ignoring them. Which allows them to do so without interruption.

A week ago, when we took all three horses out, Cowboy & Trooper were acting competitive. Yesterday, they were acting like old pals. Both assumed Bandit was in charge of the ride like he now is in charge of the corral. I'll let others draw their own conclusions.


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## bsms

Knave said:


> ...You will get confident as you spend time doing it, and the less you worry about perfection the closer you will come.


Worth repeating. A place giving lessons ought to post it somewhere!


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## bsms

Taken next to my computer this morning. This fellow has decided the tree next to my window is a good shelter. A bit awkward since he also seems interested in my wife's chickens, but I can't begrudge him a spot:


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## whisperbaby22

Cool, we have red tailed hawks here, they swoop in and grab a pullet from time to time, but take off somewhere else to eat.


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## SueC

bsms said:


> Cowboy and Trooper, and horses knowing more than scientists give them credit for.


As a trained scientist and avid reader on the subject, I do feel that this is a bit of a generalisation that harks back to the old, mostly male-dominated behaviour science from the 1930s and 40s and before, where people overwhelmingly brought their cultural preconceptions on the superiority of humans over all other species along and let it bleed into their work, and overused the concept of anthropomorphising to include not only the genuine use of that term, but anything that showed a real similarity between _**** sapiens_ and any other species.

Interestingly, it was female scientists like Jane Goodall who early on made more neutral observations about animal behaviour, which included similarities as well as differences, but they initially had to censor their own observations and interpretations so they wouldn't be laughed off the stage by the scientific establishment of the time. Goodall wrote a really interesting retrospective about that as an older person looking back at her life and at the evolution of behavioural sciences, which I recommend to anyone interested in the subject. At the time much of science was basically a boys' club, and that entrenchment of power really affected the quality of the work, as is pretty much the case anywhere power is entrenched and vested interests hold sway. 

Power-hogging isn't a monopoly of men either, but although things are slowly getting better, the reality is that the power in science, and in places like Australian government, and in corporations, and many other examples you can think of (notoriously Hollywood etc) is still very much with the white, middle-aged, middle-class old boys' set, and this has had destructive consequences for anyone not belonging to that particular subset, as well as the subset itself, and the work that is done.

Animal behaviour even when I learnt about it at university back in the late 1980s/early 90s is an entirely different kettle of fish to that old stuff I referred to earlier. The majority of biologists I have worked with expect more similarities between social mammals than differences, whether in anatomy or physiology or biochemistry or behaviour - because of the recognised close phylogenetic relationship between them, which when discovered kind of exploded the myth that _**** sapiens_ was so totally other and separate as a creature.

If you read modern animal behaviour studies, they're not nearly as short-sighted as the old ones (and you saw a link to one on my journal recently and remarked on it too! ;-)). A contemporary animal behaviour specialist who works with horses is Marthe Kiley-Worthington, and I really recommend her books on the subject. inkunicorn: She's a scientist, and she wouldn't laugh at your observations with your horses, and neither do I.


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## SueC

Love that bird!  Do you know what he was eating?

Look who visited us on our office window last year:



This Tawny Frogmouth had landed on the window frame in broad daylight. Disoriented or taking the opportunity to eat the spiders out of the frame while it’s open? After this photo it made eye contact with the photographer (me ) and flew off into the bush behind the house. These are generally nocturnal birds. We just love them. Their camouflage is incredible, here's a photo we didn't take that shows it so well:










They disguise themselves as branches. Can you see the two in this photo?

Engaging little critters:










This farmer had an accidental encounter with this one - their story is here...

https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news...k=e6d0bff80bb7dbd69064cbca7d763df8-1535793597


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## knightrider

What a picture! The Tawny Frogmouth looks as if he is laughing along with the man!


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## bsms

SueC said:


> ....Power-hogging isn't a monopoly of men either, but although things are slowly getting better, the reality is that the power in science, and in places like Australian government, and in corporations, and many other examples you can think of (notoriously Hollywood etc) is still very much with the white, middle-aged, middle-class old boys' set, and this has had destructive consequences for anyone not belonging to that particular subset, as well as the subset itself, and the work that is done...


I wrote a long response and then went for a run. Then eliminated most of my response. But...

As a white, middle-aged male, I don't feel much sympathy with the idea that we are oppressors who have made everyone else's life suck.

There ARE people who have things handed to them. But not many. LIFE tends to beat people down. I was told boxing was the greatest sport because it is the only one where winning is defined as getting up one more time than your opponent - and the opponent my Dad was talking about was LIFE.

I cannot speak to life in academic circles. I have no idea how professors are handled. It may be they are like general officers in the military - who DO tend to be promoted for reasons of family and politics. But for most of the people I've known, LIFE is the obstacle. The people I know who have been successful in life - not "rich", but successful - are folks who have busted their butts, invested in their family, and fought against life as a family. 

What I heard from a number of top performers while in the military was "_20% of the people do 80% of the work for maybe 20% of the credit_". Yeah, white guys who work hard feel that way too. But when I was in college in the 70s, any woman could take any major she wanted. Women were well represented in graduate work. 

There have been restrictions on women in the military. We could debate that, but I don't like discussing politics on a horse forum and I honestly wouldn't value the opinions of anyone who hasn't deployed to combat. I'll say this: My oldest daughter was in the Marines. She did a tour in Iraq (aircraft maintenance) and married a guy in the infantry. Her opinion of women in infantry? Not in favor - because she has seen and lived with what several tours of combat did to her 6'2" husband's body. 

The successful white men I've known could list the times they've been beaten down, and would tell you they had to work much harder than anyone around them. Life is like that. Everyone has obstacles. You struggle, you get knocked down, you count on your family (if you are lucky) and try again.

PS: The first time I was aware of wild animals as thinking, feeling creatures was from the movie (and later the book) "Born Free". Although written by the wife, what they did involved the husband every bit as much. They later separated. His own book ("My Pride and Joy: An Autobiography")is a wonderful read, and much more realistic about animals and lions than Born Free was. "The Great Safari: The Lives of George and Joy Adamson" is a good biography. Joy tended to sentimentalize animals. George loved them honestly, which is much better. Both were told they would be killed by the lions they raised. Both eventually were murdered by humans.

The actors who portrayed them in the movie were very interesting people in their own lives. They became life-long conservationists from their experience. Bill Travers did some amazing things in WW2 as well:

"_While deep behind enemy lines, Major Travers was struck by malaria and volunteered to be left behind in a native Burmese village. To avoid capture, he disguised himself as a Chinese national and walked hundreds of miles through jungle territory until he reached an Allied position.

In 1945, Travers was promoted to the rank of major, and he joined Force 136 Special Operations Executive and was parachuted into Malaya._"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Travers


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## bsms

From the over-50 thread:


bsms said:


> ...My youngest is going to go into the military (waiting for a start date now). Since I'm losing a riding companion, I'm trying to get Bandit used to going out alone. We did our 5th solo trip in 2 weeks today. Went our farthest yet - which was only 35 minutes of trail time, but it included some cantering so we covered more ground. He did good except from when I stopped to drop the stirrups from the "Momma Bear" setting to the "Poppa Bear" setting, which I find more comfortable for cantering. He got nervous. Then I needed to find a spot without a lot of large rocks for mounting. When I got on, he decided to do the Snake Dance Trot for 50 yards. Then he settled and I got my other foot into the stirrup. Other than that and two tiny spooks, he did fine.
> 
> I'm trying hoof boots on him (Renegade). I was happier on the other rides than this one. We climbed out of the wash (dry stream bed) in a steep spot, did some heavy sand work, climbed out of another wash at another steep spot...and I felt Bandit wasn't confident about his footing. They protect him well on level trail, but we don't have much level trail...





bsms said:


> Just want to say I tightened Bandit's Renegade boots for today's ride and he did fine in them. Took him out on a part of trail we hadn't tried for over a year because it hurts his feet too much and he just trudged along, more interested in the smell of the cattle who had been run on that land a month ago than in the rocks. He kept offering trots or canters. I kept accepting them. And sensible 20+ year old BLM mustang Cowboy, all 13 hands of him, strolled along behind muttering, "_Slow but steady wins the race!_" We zipped around and stopped to eat grass that has sprung up after recent rains. Cowboy strolled, grabbing bites as he kept walking. And at the end, we "finished" a 90 minute ride about 100 yards ahead of steady Cowboy. Both horses acted utterly content with life, so I'd call it a "win/win".
> 
> PS: I wore my Canadian made Tilley Hat today instead of my helmet. Given how much sweat was pouring off both Bandit and I by the ride's end, and given how sensible Bandit is getting, I think it was the right call. We finished looking like we had been caught in the rain. Cowboy & my DIL looked a lot fresher...


Think the solo rides are getting Bandit used to relying more on me and paying less attention to the other horses. For his part, Cowboy was doing great at just letting Bandit race ahead while he strolled at a pace my DIL appreciates. I think Bandit knows his front feet won't get hurt now & he's enjoying short 50-200 yard runs. Particularly since he knows I'll keep my eyes open for some dried grass somewhere and let him stop and munch.


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## bsms

Solo ride today. I think it says a lot that I was willing to try filming him with one hand while riding with the other...but he was getting a little tense, so I shut off the camera, put it in my pocket, and got back to riding. Just a minute of video. He wasn't raising his head, btw. I just struggled to find how to hold the camera in my free hand while trotting...


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## evilamc

Haha! Cute. The trick to filming while riding a trot is.....trade for a gaited horse and film while gaiting!! 






jk jk, didnt you used to have some kind of camera mount?


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## bsms

I've got a camera mount but rarely feel like wearing it. I think I can learn to film with one hand, but it requires me to trust Bandit to take care of us both. I think Bandit is getting there. He's pretty sensible. Got a bit nervous today being without the other horses, but the advantage is that he is forced to rely on me for comfort and security.

I find trust is very much a two-way street. It has to be earned, not assumed. And as Bandit learns to trust me, I learn to trust him, and then the cycle repeats as we build confidence in each other. We have to take chances, trusting each other when neither fully feels like it. When (if?) we come thru successfully, we gain confidence in each other. When I was struggling with Mia, people would tell me to sing, or to "act confident". But Mia, like Bandit, recognized false confidence as...well, false! And how can you trust someone who tries to trick you?

That trust is a two-way street seems obvious when one stops to think about it, but I find much of riding theory assumes the horse should automatically trust us - the "Man is God to Horse" theory, or the "Divine Right of Riders" theory. Chamberlin, who wrote so well about position and balance, quoted the saying at Samur with approval: "_The horse should believe God is on his back and The Devil is at his belly_ (spurs, used to attack a horse for disobedience)."

At a minimum, I's shorten it to "_The horse should believe God is on his back._" But even that doesn't capture it, because I sure as heck ain't God! So perhaps it should be, "_The horse should know he has an intelligent, well-meaning friend with him!_" *I cannot be God and I don't want to be Satan*, but I can be a knowledgeable friend! Still, I find I must give trust to earn trust. And as we both earn trust, our trust in each other grows. No shortcuts.

BTW, @evilamc, I'd love to try a gaited horse some day! A friend with 50+ years of desert riding experience called them "The Cadillacs of the Desert". Still, Bandit is teaching me a lot about horses. And I may be teaching him a little bit about humans.


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## gottatrot

I liked that video perspective, because it feels like when you're riding, you are seeing the same view. Watching the ears to see what the horse is thinking.


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## bsms

A couple of screenshots from a video [very bottom now] my wife did on her iphone today. Bandit was very tense at the start of ride. I tried doing a few laps in the arena at a W/T/C to see if he would settle, but he was wound up.

The farrier was here a couple of days ago. We talked boots. He likes the Renegades. I mentioned Bandit seemed to have problems with his trot/canter motion in them. The farrier said it was like switching from sneakers to cowboy boots. Until you get used to them, you feel awkward. Once you get used to them, you adjust your gait for whatever you have on your feet and don't think about it. 

I've been going back & forth between them. The farrier recommended just riding him in his boots, every ride, regardless, until Bandit felt relaxed in them. So I'm trying that. The idea was we (Bandit & I) would go out on a walk in the desert with my wife & daughter on foot. Since Bandit was obviously tense, my daughter fetched Trooper to walk along with us.

Before we got to the desert, my wife decided she wanted to take another route - one that would have us on pavement the entire time, and surrounded for two miles of walking around houses. I went along...but dismounted. Bandit was wound up. He was in boots. He was going on a route that would stress him out. And I wasn't wearing a helmet. Seemed like a good time to back down and just lead him.

He stayed a bit tense. I asked him to trot beside me and he gave a very elevated trot. So much so that I decided to imitate him. Not quite to this level. I had cowboy boots on, after all.








​
But the wife and daughter found it funny. Bandit wasn't quite as amused, but he settled some after the first mile. It probably was good for him, seeing lots of things in human neighborhoods to make him nervous but surviving it all just by staying with me. Trooper, of course, strolled the whole way, a joint hanging out of his mouth. His non-rider of 10 years (since she was leading him) starts boot camp in December. We're not sure, but I don't think we are allowed to send Trooper with her...:icon_rolleyes:

Below is Bandit feeling a bit tense during the 5 minutes of arena time before the walk. I had shifted to the "Papa Bear" stirrup setting since he was acting tense just leading him to the arena. I've been doing more riding at the "Momma Bear" setting, but prefer some extra leg around him when he gets stressed.









​I've never quite figured out what to do with my right hand. I find myself holding it waist high most of the time. He was in a curb today just to remind him of how it feels. By the time I was saddling him, I wished I had the Dr Cook's instead. Oh well. A helmet and the Dr Cook's may have made me feel like riding instead of leading today. Maybe that is wimping out, but wimping out and staying in one piece is OK by me.​


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## bsms

Still trying to learn about iphone stuff. Here is a picture sent to my email instead of pulled off a video by a screen capture. Something I notice...I'm asking him to go hard left (turn left in a tight turn). According to the books, I'm confusing him and he should be tipping his nose to the right and maybe stopping since the solid curb bit has rotated and the right rein is tight. But Bandit understands the cue based on the totality of what is going on and his familiarity with neck reining, so he's looking in the direction of turn and not stopping or slowing. Nor is he gaping, imitating a giraffe, etc - because he knows what he is being asked to do and how to get relief:


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## Chevaux

I hope you are not offended by me saying this, bsms, but that stirrup length makes you look slimmer.😀


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## bsms

No offense taken! I was a very fat kid and have struggled with weight my entire life. I figure it will end when I die and not before. I have lost about an inch from my waist, though. 

I had to give up jogging for 9 years after hurting my back in my fall from Mia. Last Jan I was able to start with walking distances and have slowly worked up to jogging again. Only about 2 miles, and I sometimes still have to stop and take a breather. Pretty sad for someone who was jogging 4-5 miles a day, 4-5 days a week when I got hurt.

But in terms of riding, I've noticed a couple of things. First is that as the pain has faded in my back, I don't brace it as rigid while riding. I didn't realize how much I was bracing my back, or how much it affected my riding, until I no longer needed to brace so hard! I was hurt a few months after taking up riding, so it has affected me for most of my horse riding life (10 years).

The second is that my early grounding in using a Forward Seat was too affected by its use in jumping. Consider this picture, which has longer stirrups but still was based on my forward seat learning:








​ 
Compared to today on tense (







) Bandit:








​
The good news in the older picture is I'm grounded in my stirrups, but I have to lean forward a lot to get my center of gravity over them. When I lengthened my stirrups, I had a choice: I could bring my heel back under me, or shove my rump further forward to get it over my stirrups. Well, not quite over my stirrups, but close enough that I don't feel as much need to lean forward. I chose to let my stirrups suck me forward.

Part of my problem before was I learned to ride on Mia, and Mia's startle reaction was a violent spin, often up to 2 full circles! The need to ride that out has affected my riding for a long time - 7 years on her, and a few more in memory of her! But Bandit is a much saner horse. Larry Trocha's advice to slouch a little puts me far enough "behind my horse" that I can stay with him in a spook, but lets me still lean SLIGHTLY forward, get a TINY bit out of the saddle, and free Bandit up when things are going good.

A while back, @*tinyliny* mentioned my leaning forward too much. I think she was right - something I couldn't admit at the time. I often need to let things percolate inside me for a month or two or fifteen before I can put advice into practice. My wife would tell you I'm stubborn as a mule. I prefer to think of it as "_Stubborn as a mustang_", but...

A long and perhaps self-serving response to a simple sentence, @*Chevaux* . Hope you don't mind. I've been trying a half-seat at canter with the "Momma Bear" stirrup setting. I discovered today I can mostly do it at the Poppa Bear setting as well! I think - Bandit was tense, "hollow-backed" and stiff during our arena time today. Not rider induced. He was like that leaving the corral, and softened a little by the time of the lowest picture. I hope to play around more with it during the next few weeks when both of us are relaxed. How he responds will determine how I proceed.


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## tinyliny

this is good pic of balanced rider and horse if free motion. . . 

at most 'downhill' part of the canter sequence, so . . rider should be at most upright, or even leaning back ever so slightly . . this is so much better. in time, if you can just loosen the knee, a tiny bit, and just let it bend a bit, you will be even more 'soft' and easy to carry.



Don't expect me to ever post photos of me cantering . . . it's a joke!


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## SueC

You're both looking great! :thumbsup:


You've made a huge difference to your horse's demeanour and the way he carries himself, since you two started out together. Good teamwork! 

:charge:


And it's always harder to manage weight if you had extra weight as a kid. I was a skeleton, which made that a bit easier, but I think we're all having to watch our adipose bits like hawks at midlife. I heard it said once, "At 40 you can choose between your face and your ***." Which one are you choosing? ;-)


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## bsms

SueC said:


> ...I heard it said once, "At 40 you can choose between your face and your ***." Which one are you choosing? ;-)


At 60, both tend to go downhill. Unhappily, my belly button acts as a fat magnet - which probably predisposes me to a lot of bad health risks, none of which I can do much about. People say abdominal fat is the health risk, but my suspicion is the tendency to STORE fat there is the actual health risk. In my 20s, I was 5'8", weighed 130 lbs - and had a too-thick layer of belly fat.

My Dad was built like me. He died in a helicopter crash in Vietnam when he was 49. His brothers and my uncles on my Mom's side were also all built the same way. I guess the good news is they lived into their late 80s / early 90s. Only one had heart trouble, but he was at least 60 lbs heavier than me. So there is some cause for hope.

Haven't done much riding lately. When I have time, it rains. Or the wind blows at 40 mph - which is actually OK by Bandit, but _I_ hate it! When the weather is good, I have grandkids to watch. The local school district has a 3 week break (about to end, thankfully!) and they are way too young to leave while I go ride! My "_solo riding with Bandit training_" has gone to pot.


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## bsms

This is a slow motion clip from the video the pictures were taken from. He was obviously tense and only calmed a little. This was just a couple of minutes into the ride. He calmed a little more, but when we turned and starting walking thru the human neighborhood for a 2 mile trip, I dismounted. He was fine the next day. I figure he's like me and sometimes just has a bad day...




 I find videos of cantering make it look like the butt is pounding the seat, but of course the feeling is very different. One test I sometimes use is to stick my Buck 112 Ranger knife into my rear pocket. It is a pretty good sized chunk of wood and steel. If it doesn't bother me riding, then I'm obviously not pounding on the horse's back!


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## SueC

Belly button as fat magnet - yes, very familiar. I have that too, it's the "alarm area"! :rofl: I've never weighed myself; all I needed to do is pinch test the abdominal area to see if I was getting too many calories / not enough exercise - and too much stress, oddly, as high cortisol levels encourage the deposition of fat in that particular area. A friend of mine is recovering from anorexia and told me you can be skeletal and still have that fat deposit around the umbilicus, and that she can never get rid of hers unless she's eating properly, exercising neither too little nor too much, and is avoiding stress.

I put on around 2kg of unwanted belly fat just from the pain of the fractures early on after my accident. That spiked the cortisol etc and then the body simply puts fat in that area preferentially, even if you're restricting calories - it just gets more efficient. It's like an inbuilt mechanism to ensure that an injured organism has some reserves for convalescence - because hunting or foraging may become less efficient... 

It's slowly shrinking now, but it gave me a facelift at its peak! :rofl: It's reducing now because less pain, less stress, more activity. The real trick was not to stress about that! :rofl: And to keep making sure all the required nutrients were going on board.

You've got a horse, therefore you have a really effective anti-stress mechanism, which exercises you at the same time! 

:cowboy:

By the way, how's the foot? 

I was thinking the other day, because I'm now walking Julian again for his preliminaries to saddle training, how ultra effective it seems to be fitness-wise to just go walking with a lively horse. I can get as out of breath doing that as when trying to run (which I do badly :rofl. And it's easier on a tender foot than running.

I'm sorry I upset you with my boys' club comments a while back. Obviously I'm not a man-hater, since I'm happily married to one, and admire and am inspired by many, of all sorts of colours and cultures. And I don't mean to tar all men with the same brush, either, because I think as with every problem situation like that, it's usually a comparative minority that create the problems, but they seem to be concentrated in power positions and therefore it amplifies their ill effect. And it's not just men, either, I've met women like that too. It's just that we do still have places which are terrible boys' clubs (and it did affect the quality of behavioural science research) - and I'll tell you a few stories one day about that, of what I've seen, and what friends have seen - and it's not always just women who end up being disadvantaged either. (And of course people work hard to get where they are! )

Barriers to riding - yep, and for me best thing is to take each new day as it comes, and not be discouraged by the pattern. I don't like riding in high winds either.

Best wishes to you and your family of two-legs and four-legs! :cheers:


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## gottatrot

Something about leaning forward is that if you keep your back fairly straight, the concussion of riding is not going to affect your back much. If you lean back, there is a risk of leverage forces on your lower back/lumbar spine. I understand there is an emphasis on keeping your core engaged in dressage, but if something happens such as the horse bolts forward and your upper back gets pulled back suddenly, there will be a lot of leverage affecting your lumbar area.








Leaning straight or forward, even if something happens to affect your posture, worst case it's going to work on your upper back, which will have a lot less leverage working on it.








I know what it does to my back if I'm straight or forward a bit and a horse bucks before I was off the saddle. It's not wonderful, but doesn't hurt me. If I were leaning back, that force could really hurt my back.

I've also been thrown over the back of the saddle several times when a horse bolted off. It's not fun to ride the hindquarters of a horse when they are running, but you can get back over and find your stirrups if you were in a good position to start with. Leaning back, you would fall off backwards and probably get kicked, hit your back or head. 

My point is that I don't like to go behind vertical with my body when riding, for body mechanics and safety reasons. I was taught to lean back in western lessons, especially when loping, but I find it doesn't work out practically for me.


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## SueC

tinyliny said:


> Don't expect me to ever post photos of me cantering . . . it's a joke!



Well, how could you possibly canter? You only have two legs...


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## bsms

^^ @*SueC* , that is kind of like when someone posts, "_Should I breed this horse?_" I always end up with a mental picture I do not want...

Still, I'm pretty sure my granddaughter has imitated a cantering horse. Never when I have a camera, but she certainly has caught the spirit of it.


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## SueC

:rofl: I think that too. Precise language use is a good preventative. On the other hand, what fun to be had responding to things like that at face value...

It's like when people say "The vet is inseminating the cows" instead of "The vet is doing AI on the cows"... :eek_color: ...are they wanting Minotaurs or Friesians?

Cantering: Your granddaughter may completely nail the spirit of it, as might @*tinyliny* , but neither of them will get the 4-beat! :razz:

That knife you posted reminded me. I had one like that as a kid and lost it in the Serpentine River National Park when I was 16, much to my chagrin; and I'd not seen that type since until your photo. It was a great knife. The blade was slightly curved when you took it out; had the wood and brass and that metal thingie to push the blade out, just like the one you posted. If they still make them then, I might be able to replace that loss! I used to use it for whittling and pretending I was a Native American (yes, anachronism alert, but it was the _spirit_ of the thing ) and just for general use camping, but these days I could use it when I have a kangaroo to process, instead of our kitchen knife! (Which is sharp but a little awkward.)


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## bsms

The Buck 112 Ranger has been around a long time. Rumor has it a sailor got in trouble for pulling a Buck 110 out in a fight, so Buck shortened the blade to 2.75 inches. It fits in my back pocket (barely) but is thick enough it hurts to carry it there for anything other than riding. Which tells me I do not sit in a saddle! I prefer the 110 in a sheath, although I usually carry the much less scary looking and much lighter Spyderco Persistence. Arizona law allows carrying a knife with any size blade, but not all knives feel OK in a pocket.








​ 
The Buck knives are very traditional. The Spyderco works better in a kitchen or cutting up cardboard boxes. And if you open up the 110 in a public area, the fainthearted might faint!


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## Dragoon

Whoa, whoa, WHOA!!!

Back up a post! 

What do you mean by PROCESS a kangaroo?? You EAT them??


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## bsms

Dragoon said:


> ...What do you mean by PROCESS a kangaroo?? You EAT them??


Only when she isn't riding them to market...:biglaugh:...they have that handy pouch for the groceries!


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## SueC

@*Dragoon* , do you eat venison? This is Australia's deer equivalent. Just like the deer situation in Europe and America, with the natural predators largely removed, human hunters have to step in to ensure the populations don't boom out of control, because if they do, ecosystems are denuded of plant material and damaged, and kangaroos end up starving to death, which isn't pretty. This is why a predator is needed, and if wolves, thylacines, dingos etc have been exterminated, then humans have to do their job. And if you have to hunt animals, it would be so wasteful not to eat them. I ate venison in Europe, and eat kangaroo in Australia, for that reason.

I am not vegetarian, and I think it's far kinder to eat a natural population excess than be responsible for shed-raised animals like chickens by supporting that industry. We eat free-range beef and lamb, buy free-range heirloom chicken because we don't support the commercial meat chicken having arthritis from several weeks old (because their skeletons can't support their oversized mutated muscles) and being kept in sheds full of excrement never seeing the sun, try to get ethical seafood, and when we have to shoot feral rabbits, or limit the kangaroo population size, we eat those. At the same time, we welcome groups of kangaroos living on our place, enjoy their presence, and don't hassle them. They are beautiful animals, just like deer. And we think all animals deserve decent living conditions, whether bred for food or not.

@*bsms* , I think I must have had the Buck 112 Ranger (or an exact clone), because the shape of the blade is identical as well. It's a really useful shape for skinning. Mine came from an Italian souvenir shop back in the 1970s. I was admiring its construction, so a relative got me one - people aren't so funny about knives in Europe as they are in Australia, since knives like that are seen as tools, rather than attack weapons. Buying a knife for an 8-year-old girl did not raise eyebrows, and it was responsibly used, and I never cut myself on it with all my whittling! How is that seen in America?

In the Scandinavian forest kindergarten programmes, they give knives to kindergartners from age 3 on for teaching them to whittle (supervised). The following clip always makes me happy when I watch it; there should be so much more of kids in nature learning the way humans actually learnt for most of their history...






Brett says I've been looking in the wrong places for that sort of knife, and we can definitely get one online!


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## bsms

Like most things in America, how a knife is viewed and what the laws are depends on the state and specific city. IIRC, Glendale AZ used to have very restrictive knife laws, to the point someone getting gas while passing through could get in trouble for having a pocket knife. So the AZ state legislature passed a law preempting all local laws. Blade length doesn't matter, but a switchblade is illegal. I know a number of big cities outside of Arizona require blade lengths under 3". Out west, the Buck 110 might be longer than a local law approved. But it requires two hands to open it, so MOST places wouldn't hassle someone who used it discretely.

I've carried pocket knives since my first - a Cub Scout knife in the 3rd grade. Didn't in England because I didn't know their laws. The one I usually carry when riding - always when on the trail - is this one:








​ I wouldn't use the cutting blade for food without washing first. It gets...contaminated. It is an excellent hoof pick along with a blade to cut baling twine, etc. The blade dulls faster than I'd like, but a folding hoof pick is nice. It is very thick. It would be a problem for anyone who rode "on their pockets" - like I've often been told to do. Littauer, though, has shaped my riding. Even in a western saddle.


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## Knave

That’s the knife I carry!! I love it. The hoofpick is the best one ever. Mine is yellow.


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## waresbear

Oh bsms, if we lived near each other, I would love to get my hands on you as student, muhahaha. Kidding, you would be bowing me to voluntarily after one lesson.


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## gottatrot

Since my purse was very small, the only place I had found to fit a folding knife into was a tight and narrow pocket down the center seam. Over time I forgot I had put it there, and then I went on a trip. Flew through several airports, went through the xray scanners. Finally we came through Dallas, TX. I was pulled aside, and the security guy said, "You have a knife in your purse." 
I denied it, forgetting about that knife I'd put in there several months before. He took my purse, opened the seam and pulled out the knife. I was surprised, and embarrassed, since it looked like I'd been trying to hide the knife through security. 
I said, "This is the fourth airport I've had that purse, and no one has found it!" 
He said, "Ma'am, this is Texas. In Texas we know what a knife looks like." 
It was unfortunately DH's knife I had been borrowing, and he was sorry to have it confiscated.


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## Dragoon

I hear you @SueC...
Only a someone who truly appreciated animals and loved the planet would learn about the big picture as you do...and eat them too. I do eat some meat, just to stay healthy. 
I had a knee jerk reaction to your statement since kangaroos are so rare and beautiful, lol. It would be like hearing someone say they eat unicorns or something, because where they are, there are too many.


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## SueC

Awwww, @*Dragoon* . You know, I actually wish it wasn't so, but it's how it is. In nature, survival is the exception rather than the rule - think about how many foals a mare in the wild can raise in her life, but more of them will die than reach maturity, and as a rule of thumb, every animal is replaced by about one other of its kind, so that's a lot of dead offspring if you look at the reproductive rate. I really hate it when we have to kill things, but you can't put the whole of nature on contraception etc. So I'm interested in quality of life for animals, and that their deaths be as stress-free, quick and oblivious as possible.

Once in my 30s I tried to construct a fantasy world where nothing had to die. This meant nothing could breed, and that every animal was mature - nothing was young or in its growing stages. All the plants had to be perennials, which got only parts of them eaten. Carnivores, what do we do with them? Invent meat-trees? Then how will they exercise? Will everything lie around getting fat? (etc etc etc) In the end, I realised that this sort of world would be just as sad as one in which there is so much death, and that in a strange way, it would be an uglier world. No young animals, no flowers because no seeds required, except maybe sterile sorts of nectar-making things so the bees etc could survive, everything out of shape. In the end, the visual beauty and magnificence around us in the biosphere is very much the result of so much attrition, and would not be there without birth or death, as two sides of one coin. And also, everything gets recycled...


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## SueC

Just in postscript, Brett quoted me something the other day, which goes something like this: _Do not fear the masses but pity them, for no doubt they have forgotten that they will die, and they do not see the need for beauty or horror. They neither dread nor love nor know their limits. _(He reads a lot of Neil Gaiman etc, and associated things. One of the first things he lent me was _Death: The High Cost Of Living_. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/16791.Death)


We were discussing how some people think it is morbid to even look at mortality - yet if we don't, how can we fully value being alive, while we live? Khalil Gibran had a few things to say about that too!


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## bsms

I started this post in response to the mustang thread. It evolved into something more personal, so I decided this was a better spot for it. Nearly dumped it without posting, but it took time to put together as I sit here listening to the wind howling around the house, so...
------------------------------
This screenshot is of public land a bit over 1/4 mile from my house. West is at the top because it fits better that way. I don't take the horses there often. It is rough ground. The trails look good on an aerial photo, but the reality (having tried it) is most of them have good places for a horse to fall trying to get down or up a hill and I don't want to take a chance on needing to shoot my horse! The rectangle is around a corral built for cattle. The circles are artificial ponds built by ranchers at some point in the past. I think this used to be a private cattle ranch before it was given to the government:








​ 
No wild horses here. I don't think a horse could survive here. There are bobcats, javelina, deer, coyotes, vultures, hawks and an old guy who rides horses there in his 70s told me a cougar uses it part of the time. I've been on every path there on my own feet, being more agile on steep slopes than a horse. It is used by cattle for a few weeks of the year.

This was Mia & I taken near the stock pond in the middle. She had tougher feet than Bandit:








​ 

A friend - a 6'3" friend - riding 14.3 hands Trooper near the bottom stock pond. FWIW, Trooper acted quite content. The guy is a good rider in a too-small-for-him saddle:









​No wild horses, but it might help to calibrate what a lot of public land looks like, and the role of rancher improvements. My friend with the sheep once put in $20,000 of improvements on his own dime, and lost the allotment the following year! There is a reason he prefers to lease private land if possible! 

My point is that ranchers don't just take. They aren't getting to graze at taxpayer expense. It isn't an either/or situation. There are no wild horses here, thankfully. If there were, the horses would desperately need the stock ponds, although they dry up much of the year too. I'm told the cougar retreats to the near mountain range during the dry season. I suspect a lot of the wildlife use this area briefly, at certain times of the year, just as cattle do.

The biggest threat to this land's ecology is undoubtedly seen along the right side of the picture - the houses, including the one I live in. I don't expect to see the land sold off by the state to allow houses...but the ATVs, motorcycles & loss of the land the houses now sit on do a lot more harm than cattle. ​


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## bsms

Found this on the Internet and wanted to share it:
---------------------------------------------











*Ulysses S. Grant and His Horses During and After the Civil War
*​
In later years, during the Civil War, Grant's horses were objects of intense public interest. His oldest son, Frederick Dent Grant, tells of the horses Grant owned during the War.

When the Civil War broke out, my father, General Grant, was appointed colonel of the Twenty-first Illinois Volunteer Infantry and on joining the regiment purchased a horse in Galena, Illinois. This horse, though a strong animal, proved to be unfitted for service and, when my father was taking his regiment from Springfield, Illinois, to Missouri, he encamped on the Illinois River for several da ys. During the time they were there a farmer brought in a horse called "Jack." This animal was a cream-colored horse, with black eyes, mane and tail of silver white, his hair gradually becoming darker toward his feet. He was a noble animal, high spirited, very intelligent and an excellent horse in every way. He was a stallion and of considerable value. My father used him until after the battle of Chattanooga (November, 1863), as an extra horse and for parades and ceremonial occasions. At the time of the Sanitary Fair in Chicago (1863 or '64), General Grant gave him to the fair, where he was raffled off, bringing $4,000 to the Sanitary Commission.

Soon after my father was made a brigadier-general, (August 8, 1861), he purchased a pony for me and also another horse for field service for himself. At the battle of Belmont (November 7, 1861), his horse was killed under him and he took my pony. The pony was quite small and my father, feeling that the commanding general on the field should have a larger mount, he turned the pony over to one of his aides-de-camp (Captain Hyllier) and mounted the captain's horse. The pony was lost in the battle.

The next horse that my father purchased for field service was a roan called "Fox," a very powerful and spirited animal and of great endurance. This horse he rode during the siege and battles around Fort Donelson and also at Shiloh.

At the battle of Shiloh the Confederates left on the field a rawboned horse, very ugly and apparently good for nothing. As a joke, the officer who found this animal on the field, sent it with his compliments, to Colonel Lagow, one of my father's aid-de-camp, who always kept a very excellent mount and was a man of means. The other officers of the staff "jollied" the colonel about this gift. When my father saw him, he told the colonel that the animal was a thoroughbred and a valuable mount and that if he, Lagow, did not wish to keep the horse he would be glad to have him. Because of his appearance he was named "Kangaroo," and after a short period of rest and feeding and care he turned out to be a magnificent animal and was used by my father during the Vicksburg campaign.

In this campaign, General Grant had two other horses, both of them very handsome, one of which he gave away and the other he used until late in the war. During the campaign and siege of Vicksburg, a cavalry raid or scouting party arrived at Joe Davis' plantation (brother of Jefferson Davis, President of the Confederacy) and there captured a black pony which was brought to the rear of the city and presented to me. The animal was worn out when it reached headquarters but was a very easy riding horse and I used him once or twice. With care he began to pick up and soon carried himself in fine shape.

At that time my father was suffering with a carbuncle and his horse being restless caused him a great deal of pain. It was necessary for General Grant to visit the lines frequently and one day he took this pony for that purpose. The gait of the pony was so delightful that he directed that he be turned over to the quartermaster as a captured horse and a board of officers be convened to appraise the animal. This was done and my father purchased the animal and kept him until he died, which was long after the Civil War. This pony was known as "Jeff Davis."

After the battle of Chattanooga, General Grant went to St. Louis, where I was at the time, critically ill with dysentery contracted during the siege of Vicksburg. During the time of his visit to the city he received a letter from a gentleman who signed his name "S. S. Grant," the initials being the same as those of a brother of my father's, who had died in the summer of 1861. S. S. Grant wrote to the effect that he was very desirous of seeing General Grant but that he was ill and confined to his room at the Lindell Hotel and begged him to call, as he had something important to say which my father might be gratified to hear.

The name excited my father's curiosity and he called at the hotel to meet the gentleman who told him that he had, he thought, the finest horse in the world, and knowing General Grant's great liking for horses he had concluded, inasmuch as he would never be able to ride again, that he would like to give his horse to him; that he desired that the horse should have a good home and tender care and that the only condition that he would make in parting with him would be that the person receiving him would see that he was never ill-treated, and should never fall into the hands of a person that would ill-treat him. The promise was given and General Grant accepted the horse and called him "Cincinnati." This was his battle charger until the end of the war and was kept by him until the horse died at Admiral Ammen's farm in Maryland, in 1878. 

[Side note on Cincinnati: He was the son of "Lexington," the fastest four-mile thoroughbred in the United States, time 7:19 3/4 minutes. Cincinnati nearly equaled the speed of his half-brother, "Kentucky," and Grant was offered $10,000 in gold or its equivalent for him, but refused. He was seventeen hands high, and in the estimation of Grant was the finest horse that he had ever seen. Grant rarely permitted anyone to mount the horse. Two exceptions were Admiral Daniel Ammen and President Abraham Lincoln. Ammen saved Grant's life from drowning while a school-boy. Grant said: "Lincoln spent the latter days of his life with me. He came to City Point in the last month of the war and was with all me all the time. He was a fine horseman and rode my horse Cincinnati every day."] According to General Horace Porter, Grant rode Cincinnati to the surrender meeting with General Robert E. Lee.

About the time of January, 1864, some people in Illinois found a horse in the southern part of that state, which they thought was remarkably beautiful. They purchased him and sent him as a present to my father. This horse was known as "Egypt" as he was raised, or at least came from southern Illinois, a district known in the state as Egypt, as the northern part was known as Canaan. [End of narrative by Frederick Dent Grant]

General Horace Porter described Grant's technique in mounting Egypt. When the horse was brought up, the general mounted as usual in a manner peculiar to himself. He made no perceptible effort, and used his hands but little to aid him; he put his left foot in the stirrup, grasped the horse's mane near the withers with his left hand, and rose without making a spring by simply straightening the left leg til his body was high enough to enable him to throw the right leg over the saddle. There was no 'climbing' up the animal's side, and no jerky movements. The mounting was always done in an instant and with the greatest possible ease.

At Vicksburg, Grant and his horse are described as follows: "It was hard for new troops to believe that the low-voiced man in the blouse and straw hat was the one center of all direction and command of this mighty force. His horse, however, was always in full uniform. That was due to the orderly, no doubt." (Hamlin Garland, Ulysses S. Grant, His Life and Character) [_bsms Note: It probably had to do with Grant. One of the first purchases he made after rejoining the Army was a saddle valued at $150 - a big sum in 1861! He was noted for sparing no expense on tack for his horses._]

One horse, however, proved too much even for General Grant. In August of 1863, right after the fall of Vicksburg, Grant went to New Orleans to confer with General Banks about movements west of the Mississippi. One September 4th he reviewed General Banks' army at Carrollton and was given a large and somewhat wild and nervous horse to ride for the occasion. An accident occurred which Grant described in his Memoirs. "_The horse I rode was vicious and but little used, and on my return to New Orleans ran away and, shying at a locomotive in the street, fell, probably on me. I was rendered insensible, and when I regained consciousness I found myself in a hotel near by with several doctors attending me. My leg was swollen from the knee to the thigh, and the swelling, almost to the point of bursting, extended along the body up to the arm-pit. The pain was almost beyond endurance. I lay at the hotel something over a week without being able to turn myself in bed. I had a steamer stop at the nearest point possible, and was carried to it on a litter. I was then taken to Vicksburg, where I remained unable to move for some time afterwards._" Grant was on crutches for two months after this incident.

Cincinnati, Jeff Davis and Egypt all lived to enter the White House stables when Grant became president in 1869. Albert Hawkins was in charge of those stables at this time. He reports that arrangements were made during Grant's second term for an equestrian statue of him mounted on Cincinnati, and that every day for nearly a month the General would have the bridle and saddle put on Cincinnati and ride out to meet the sculptor. Hawkins relates that Jeff Davis was a kicker and he had the habit of biting to such an extent that the stable hands were afraid to go near him. General Grant, however, could handle him as he desired and as soon as he entered the stable. Jeff would throw back his ears and move about restlessly until the General came up and patted him.

...Ulysses S. Grant always had plans for the future, most of which did not work out the way he intended. The opening line to the preface of his Memoirs reflects his fatalistic philosophy: "Man proposes, God disposes;" man has very little control over his destiny, he lamented. During the Civil War Grant was dreaming of the day when the War would be over and he would be free to train horses. He extended this daydream to cover his old age as well.

"_I am looking forward longingly to the time when we can end this war and I can settle down on my St. Louis farm and raise horses. I love to train young colts ... When old age comes on, and I get too feeble to move about, I expect to derive my chief pleasure sitting in a big arm-chair in the center of a ring-a sort of training course, holding a colt's leading-line in my hand, and watching him run around the ring._" 

http://faculty.css.edu/mkelsey/usgrant/hors2.html

There is a good article on the horses of Lee and Grant here:

Lee, Grant and Their Steadfast Steeds | HistoryNet


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## SueC

bsms said:


> My point is that ranchers don't just take. They aren't getting to graze at taxpayer expense. It isn't an either/or situation. There are no wild horses here, thankfully. If there were, the horses would desperately need the stock ponds, although they dry up much of the year too. I'm told the cougar retreats to the near mountain range during the dry season. I suspect a lot of the wildlife use this area briefly, at certain times of the year, just as cattle do.
> 
> _The biggest threat to this land's ecology is undoubtedly seen along the right side of the picture - the houses, including the one I live in. I don't expect to see the land sold off by the state to allow houses...but the ATVs, motorcycles & loss of the land the houses now sit on do a lot more harm than cattle.
> _​


Exactly, and I wish more people could see it. And also that there are no "holy cows" - although human beings excel at thinking of themselves as such, and include their pets, and then by extension their pets' species members as well. What is needed is a big-picture approach without this personal bias (and it's really a form of personal selfishness: don't touch what I personally assign value to, whatever you do - but destroy anything I happen not to value all you like...well, it doesn't work like that...that's decision-making by the internal three-year-old, which is also some people's ongoing external projection).

I glanced over that mustang thread, but I'm busy and it riles me that many people have such a poor understanding of ecology, and such kneejerk points of view about matters they have a poor objective understanding on. And this includes, as always, some people I like. But we don't live in la-la-land, we live in the biosphere, with its own realities and modes of operation.

There is even less argument that can be made for letting wild horses roam in Australia, than for America. The wild horses in both countries are feral horses from ex domestic stock, not a natural part of the ecology. America, however, naturally had, and has, hard-hooved, large 500kg+ herbivores, so a wild horse may fit into that niche without too much damage, so long as the population size is firmly under control (and that inevitably means killing animals, as it does with deer and kangaroos). On the other hand, the horse competes with truly native herbivores, and also with the herbivores that are food animals for humans. It's all very well to talk about so-called greedy ranchers, but as we say in Australia, _Don't criticise a farmer with your mouth full._

In Australia, we have no such niche, and the native herbivores are small (generally way under 100kg) and have softly padded feet - as was necessary for living in the Australian environment without causing unsustainable damage. The biota evolved to fit the place. People forget this. You can take beautiful photos of brumbies, and of course I love horses and they are majestic and wonderful and all that. But this is not a good argument for their continued destruction of the fragile environment here. I don't think we should have wild horses in Australia - and if at all, then only very small numbers in smallish area - but even if we do that, it _always_ comes at the detriment of other species who are native to the area, and whose survivial as a species is often endangered, which the horse as a species definitely isn't. 

There simply is no free lunch. I love the Corroborree Frog too, and it's endangered by feral horses. That I love it is neither here nor there, it's just my personal feelings about it, but its survival as a species is. Few people have heard of it. It's only one of many species negatively impacted by the presence of feral placental mammals in Australia.










As you all know, I run a very small herd of horses on our farm here, in a simulated range situation. The number is strictly controlled at a maximum of four. Any more than that, and we can't control the damage they do, and it starts to really negatively impact on our environment. Running the horses means that there is about a three-head reduction in the number of beef cattle we can run. This is the economic cost to us, which we are happy to pay for personal sentimental reasons. But we would not impose that cost on others, by insisting on horses in the Australian rangelands. And we think there is no place at all for horses in the Australian flora and fauna conservation areas.

We have 50ha of voluntary flora and fauna reserve on our farm. Our horses stick to the service tracks in it. If they didn't, and went bush-bashing, we would fence them out instead of allowing them access. This has worked out fine, but our horses (or cattle) don't depend on the bush for their nutrition, which they get from the pasture area and from supplementation, so they have no interest in grazing in it. We aim to be slightly understocked to facilitate a happy coexistence between the wild and cultivated aspects of our farm. Not everyone has that economic luxury. It's a personal decision on private farmland, which has no application whatsoever to the management of feral horses in wilderness areas.

And while we're at it, the biggest reason for environmental degradation in Australia is the failure of human beings to stabilise and control their own population size. In terms of carrying capacity, Australia is already overstocked with humans, who are the number one ecological threat nowadays. But people don't want to hear it - there is so much money to be made in the short term from an expanding population... and like David Attenborough, I don't expect people to hear it either. I think humans are going to do what any microbial population does in a laboratory - boom to the limits of available resources, then crash. As if, like microbes, they had no brains, and no capacity for ethics, philosophy, objective thinking, and limiting their own drives and desires.

:cowboy:

I'm not entering the mustang thread ;-), but I've cheered some of your posts in my mind!


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> General Horace Porter described Grant's technique in mounting Egypt. When the horse was brought up, the general mounted as usual in a manner peculiar to himself. He made no perceptible effort, and used his hands but little to aid him; he put his left foot in the stirrup, grasped the horse's mane near the withers with his left hand, and rose without making a spring by simply straightening the left leg til his body was high enough to enable him to throw the right leg over the saddle. There was no 'climbing' up the animal's side, and no jerky movements. The mounting was always done in an instant and with the greatest possible ease.


It was fun to read about Grant and his horses. 
Grant must have had very strong quads and good knees!


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## Knave

@SueC I understand your avoidance of the thread. I think I will actually stop even looking at it. I get frustrated with exactly what you explained, that selfish thought that only one’s opinions are relevant. I want to believe that it is only in good intentions. I wonder where my own values would lie if I didn’t know what I do know... I love animals, could I have been so misinformed? Maybe I could have. 

It’s just the lack of ability for people to see the other side that eats at me. Then some part of that condescending attitude makes me start to want to argue with people who are incapable of hearing another dialogue. It is better that I avoid it, although the original conversation started well enough. Somehow it turned into an argument of for vs against cattlemen, which of course is where I naturally take a bit of offense.

Part of me does empathize with that view. As I said, I’m afraid I would have fallen into it. Oh well I guess. Different opinions are what makes life interesting.


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## bsms

I'm not in any way a rancher. I had a college room mate who tried to build a ranch, starting with some land he inherited from his grandfather and IIRC maybe 60 sheep. No one in his family had EVER tried to raise sheep. He's the only friend from college I've stayed in regular contact with for 40 years. Some of the old guys in the church I go to did some ranching. I studied biology in college, worked a little for the USFS and Utah's Division of Wildlife and seriously considered getting a masters in range management. 

Ranchers aren't totally pure, noble people. Some ranchers are jerks. When I worked for the USFS, the district had a guy running 200% of his allotment & got a court order to seize his cattle - which they did without violence, and it was needed. But most ranchers are pretty law abiding. Cut corners sometimes as most of us do. Don't ask me what speed I drive on an empty road! But most live in open spaces because they LOVE those open spaces and cannot imagine living in a city.

There is a huge disconnect between what is fed to people thru the media and Internet and reality. There is talk now about Google and others trying to remove 'fake news' (political) from the Internet. I think the Internet's value depends on unrestricted information! It is OUR responsibility to seek out multiple sides and evaluate. When I was young, one had a couple of TV stations & the local newspaper for information. A huge part of it was...well, if not fake, certainly inaccurate! And sometimes deliberate lies. During my time overseas, I saw new reports in places like the NY Times that could only be described as deliberately wrong - and I was in a place to see what really happened, and knew the reporters had access to the real story. I do NOT want some software engineer in California trying to block me from reading sources based on the engineer's idea of truth, particularly since the engineer may be heavily biased.

I'm certainly not perfect at forming opinions either. I used to say I'd be very happy if I hit 50%. But many issues have 3 or 4 or 5 sides, and the older I get, the lower percentage of clear thinking I'll accept. I tend to think 25% right may be a challenging goal!

What bothers me is the unquestioned acceptance of obvious cartoon propaganda. To use an example from horses, there are people pushing the idea that any riding is harmful to horses, or that a rider's weight causes serious harm if it exceeds 10, 15, or 20% of the horse's weight. I don't think it is too much to ask for people to notice how many horses have been ridden at higher weights and remained healthy for long lives, or lower weights and harmed, and conclude the issue is more complex than % of horse weight! How can anyone claim 15% is a valid limit? There are vets now who argue 15% is the maximum - so don't they ever open their eyes and see people successful at having healthy and happy horses well above that?

When it comes to mustangs, if truth be told, I'd rather see antelope or deer or elk roaming the land. I love watching horses in pastures. I like deer and antelope in the wild.


> "_In Australia, we have no such niche, and the native herbivores are small (generally way under 100kg) and have softly padded feet - as was necessary for living in the Australian environment without causing unsustainable damage. The biota evolved to fit the place. People forget this. You can take beautiful photos of brumbies, and of course I love horses and they are majestic and wonderful and all that. But this is not a good argument for their continued destruction of the fragile environment here._" - @SueC


Exactly. There is a time and place, but I'm not convinced the new west is the time and place for wild horses roaming freely. The big herds of wild horses in the old west roamed the plains, not Nevada. And the mustangs are in issue in the Intermountain West, not California or Texas. With open range as restricted in size and travel even as much as it is in Arizona or Utah, I'm just not convinced mustangs have a viable home. Keeping some on the range isn't too harmful, but it seems obvious that management is needed. The artificial, human-dominated world - and MY house affects wildlife, so I'm a part of it - is an artificial constraint on an ecosystem. It can be done but only with active management.

Off of my soapbox for today. It is still very windy, but warmer. Hope to get a ride in on Bandit. He needs to get out. Have all three horses back in one corral. We're supposed to have a week without rain and Cowboy is simply healthier when he is with the other horses. We need to redo our shelters!


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## bsms

Looks like it has only been two weeks since I last rode. Felt longer. The little arena is still a little muddy in spots, but not bad & most was good to go. Lots of grass growing after all the rain - think this is around the 3rd or 4th wettest Oct on record here. Bandit was doing good for about 10 minutes, but then his excess energy came to the surface. The remaining 20 minutes were pretty energetic. Trots were fast and very stiff, although he started to flow a little by the end. Using the "Poppa Bear" stirrup setting was fine by Bandit for fast trotting today, and I think it will be my full time setting.

The first canter was rough, then his canters were mostly good although he was turning tighter on his own than he normally does. Tried one canter straight up the middle. When I told him to ease off, he planted his front feet and let his hind end spin around, coming to a full planting stop with a 180 degree turn. My inner left thigh is still a bit sore from holding on thru that. He often does a 180 turn when slowing from a canter, kind of like a signature flourish, channeling his inner John Hancock - but not while planting his front feet!








​

A neighbor walked two Dachshunds by on the road. PREDATORS! FIERCE KILLERS! HORSE EATERS! I had him stop and look. Then turned and expected to walk away, but Bandit felt leaping into a canter away was called for - so I kept him cantering for 3-4 laps. I think the neighbor thought I was showing off, but...no. Just a horse who hadn't been ridden for two weeks, although I think we both REALLY believed it was a lot longer.

After 30 minutes, he was starting to settle and my left thigh was feeling the burn, so I called it quits. Felt good to be riding again, but sure glad I didn't get ambitious and try taking him out for a solo ride. I suspect it would have been more than I want to deal with. Can't complain, though. He has been cooped up in a wet, muddy corral for two weeks. At the end, he decided to rub his face against my shoulder, which he only does when he is feeling good about life. He's a good horse. Sure wish my "arena" was 4-6 times larger! With more room, we would have hauled butt today! And part of me - not my thighs, but part of me - was pleased at his agility in doing tight turns at a fast trot or canter. There was a time he couldn't perform them under saddle, and now...he has NO problem with whipping around. My philosophy of riding says it is up to me to deal with his energy. But I'll admit, 30 minutes was enough to wear me out.


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## SueC

Ha, what a flourish to have! You two will have to audition for the movies, that sounds very cinematic! 

Isn't that beautiful handwriting?  So rare now with all that technology, although there are some nice fonts like that, sadly not available on a forum. But nothing beats pen and ink for that, I think.

Those Dachshounds are very dangerous! Bandit is trying to tell you something!

The first two pictures probably won't show because they are from http, not https URLs - so I put in the direct links, since they are really worth viewing.









http://www.weenersleap.com/images/fetch_lg.jpg










http://www.debucher.com/kipkiller.jpg





























Nice to see you two riding again. Glad the weather seems to be improving!


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## bsms

My cursive is horrible, @SueC . I've thought of trying it again, just so I can write checks instead of using my credit card and drive merchants nuts. I haven't used it much since junior high so it would be like learning from scratch.

I would SOOOO love to have a quarter mile track I could run Bandit on. I think he would like it too. I jogged today up the ATV trail/road we usually use for cantering. The rains have left gullies crisscrossing it and exposed more rocks. I can't blame him for lacking enthusiasm when one step will be leaning right and the next leaning left, and the third will have a rock for him to step on. Heck, he can experience all three in just one stride! The washes may look like smooth sand in spots, and may BE smooth sand in spots, but I jog on it enough to know there are rocks just under the sand that can throw my TWO feet off balance. Not fair for my four legged friend. Gotta get me a shirt like this:


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## Knave

Speaking of cursive, I used to work for a historical (and yet current) district court. All of the records from the 1800s had been perfectly maintained, and many of the original practices were never changed. Anyways, we had these large books. They were beautiful, and inside of them I had to write the cases in cursive just as they had always been. I felt pitiful in comparison. The writing was beautiful, and the books beautiful, and I tried my best to not ruin them with poorly written words. I really think it is a lost art, and no matter my effort it was always lacking.

On a different note: I am glad you are getting to ride again!


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## knightrider

Speaking of cursive, when I was teaching school, I always stressed cursive handwriting in my classes. Someone once donated about 40 old trophies to me. Every few months, I would have a cursive writing contest and award a trophy for the best cursive writing. I taught special ed and some of the kids had beautiful writing. I wanted them to get some recognition for something well done, they got it so infrequently. Cursive writing was really a big deal in my classroom.

My second year of teaching, I had a terrifying 5th grader. He was big and tough and hated school, couldn't learn, and really disruptive in class. I was a new young teacher, and he spoiled everything fun I tried to do with the kids. One evening, I had him after school (as I often regularly did) trying to make him get his work done. He wouldn't do anything, and began to sass and argue with me and get really tough. We were ready to come to blows. I could tell he was going to hit me and I was ready to give it right back. The school janitor came into the room, sensing something really bad was going to happen. He picked up the boy's paper, which had only a few words written on it. 

He said in his soft elderly drawl, "Tha's the most beautiful handwritin' I have eva seen. Man, if Ah could write like tha', I wud be happay for the rest of mah life. Ah wud give anythin' to be able to write lak tha." And he quietly set the paper down and went back to sweeping the hall.

The spell was broken. The boy finished his work. I can't say I never had a problem with that boy for the rest of the year, but things were different with him and me from then on. I learned a HUGE HUGE lesson from that elderly humble gentleman.


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## Knave

Wow @knightrider; I love that story. What a kind and wonderful old man. Such a good lesson for us all.

I substitute taught for a while (only as an emergency, so I had lots of days but only three years). The first day I taught I was in high school and I had a terrible trouble maker in probably my third class. A big boy too. It was chemistry, and I had an experiment, so I was almost distracted when he ran into my classroom and grabbed a bottle rocket and was getting ready to set it off. I reacted instead of responded, and I hit him in the stomach and grabbed the bottle rocket. 

It only took a moment for the thought “I am so fired, and on my first day!,” to run through my mind. I tell you what, that kid, notorious for mommy coming and rescuing him if anyone ever considered disipline (obviously more in the detention style) never tattled. Maybe he was embarrassed because I was quite a dainty thing, or maybe he was just as shocked as I was.... After that he was a pleasure to teach. I never did have another problem with him in my time there, and he would always say hello when we passed.

I definitely learned a lesson about my own behavior that day though. I guessed administrators would much rather you allow a bottle rocket set off in a classroom than touch a child. I deserve no excuse, but I was also very young, 22 probably, and I didn’t feel so far away from the students. Instead of treating him as a child my reaction was that of a peer. I watched my behavior much better after that.


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## bsms

The sheep rancher I know tried his hand at teaching history. Part way thru his first year, a kid (bigger than him) ran up to him in the hallway, called him some obscenities, and spit in his face. Without thinking, my friend decked him with an uppercut. There were a lot of witnesses and no one got upset, but that was when he decided his part-time ranch was going to need to become the real thing!

Finally had the chance to do some stuff with Bandit. Walked him once through the desert while my daughter led Trooper. Didn't ride because my daughter didn't want to. Has a short and bouncy arena ride with him. Then had a very mellow arena...ride? We spent more time that afternoon with me sitting on his back while he ate grass the heavy rains have brought. But he trotted when asked. Cantered when asked. Behaved beautifully. But neither of us felt like working, so we did lots of short stops for grazing. He can eat a LOT of grass with a snaffle in his mouth, and no complaints!

Rode him solo in the desert a couple of days ago. He did fine, but I guess I had flashbacks to being solo on Mia. My stomach started tying into knots. So I turned around before my tension carried over into Bandit.

I expected to ride Bandit yesterday while my DIL rode Cowboy. Cowboy hadn't been ridden in a month. He was acting up with her and I thought it was just that he didn't want to leave the grass growing in the arena and go on a dusty trail. We walked them to where the desert began. When she mounted up, he bucked a little and she nearly came off. So we swapped horses. She led Bandit. I got on Cowboy. He got ****y. I insisted. He did some bucking - which is hard work for him since he is 13 hands and I weigh 170 lbs. Did a little spinning, scooting us sideways across some rocks and cactus, then gave up. Behaved fine after that, but I kept it short because he wasn't happy and I couldn't figure it out.

Got back, unsaddled him...and my DIL had saddled him up with two large bite marks on his back! As in two palm-sized patches of bare, crusty skin! They weren't bleeding, but they had to be sore! It never, EVER occurred to me someone would toss a saddle on a back that looked like that. I spent the rest of the afternoon sneaking tidbits out to Cowboy to apologize. I will say once he committed to being ridden like that, he behaved well and didn't hold a grudge over it.

I posted a comment relating to it here: https://www.horseforum.com/new-horses/i-thought-i-rider-797451/page2/#post1970625941

It really drove home to me how little some notice their horses. My wife has complained that I rode Bandit with some mud on his legs. I don't think Bandit minds. But fresh bite marks directly under the saddle? Are you kidding me?!

PS: Bandit has very thin soles after all the rain. He's been wearing his boots every ride, including when I just walk him on a lead rope. I think he's getting used to them now. It is starting to become just what the well-dressed horse wears. I may try a size larger. These are pretty tight on his feet. Have to keep filing his hooves to get them on. Thin soles have been an issue for him as long as I've owned him. I think the hoof boots are the solution. I won't ride without my cowboy boots. He doesn't need to be ridden without his stylish orange boots. On our solo trip, he was walking confidently across the rocks.

PSS: Bandit takes no offense at being tacked up and then LED through the desert. He wouldn't mind if our "riding" consisted of me leading him on strolls...:vs-king:


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## horseluvr2524

I noticed in another thread that you said you are considering moving to another state. I'm not going to ask what state because I'm not stalker like (lol), but I'm just curious, what general part of the US? I'm personally so happy to be an ex-Arizonan. You couldn't pay me to go back to the desert, not my cup of tea :lol:


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## bsms

I haven't posted much lately. Just jumped in on gottatrot's journal to discuss the life changes driving some reassessment of how my wife and I and any horses will be trying to live in the future. ( https://www.horseforum.com/member-journals/why-i-gotta-trot-645777/page128/#post1970634499 ) After over 30 years with kids, it looks like we'll soon be home alone. Two people in a 5 bedroom home.

Building on those posts...just realized this morning that Richfield Utah is only a 2-2.5 hour drive from Salt Lake City's airport. Something my wife wants is for kids to be able to fly to within reasonable "pick-up" range. Otherwise kids (and grandkids) in California or where ever the military might send my youngest daughter might find visiting overwhelming. But 165 miles on Interstate highway (one way) isn't bad! Not to anyone used to living in Arizona and Utah (and Idaho). It would be easier than when I traveled several times a month from Edwards AFB to LAX or Ontario Airport for work! I'd usually get back just in time for Friday rush hour. Hours of bumper-to-bumper time.

Also realized that if my horses could learn to eat from a round bale, and with a solar water heater for the winter months, then buying 5-10 acres of pasture somewhere near our home (10-15 minute drive?) would give them a pretty good life. We could travel away for a few nights most of the year without them needing much more than someone driving by to make sure nothing weird had happened.

If leasing or buying a few acres of pasture land is an option (and it would have to be tied to buying a house near enough)...then I think my horses would be HAPPIER there. I think 5-10 acres with supplemental hay and water and a shelter would sound pretty good to three horses living here (old photo - my daughter looks terribly YOUNG in it!):








Compare:
















​
The above pictures are of residential lots of around 3 acres where building might be within our price range. And yes, I'm trying to psych myself up for the chore that moving will be! But a home that close to the mountains is starting to sound better and better! My wife and I never blinked an eye at living in 1000-1200 square foot base housing, with kids.

We'll check out northern Arizona in a couple of weeks. Hope to make plane reservations and check out parts of Utah in January. Then we'll need to decide IF we want to move. I suspect the answer will be yes, which will then involve a year of so of painful work.


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## bsms

I love the Sonoran Desert. Always have. I don't remember living in Scottsdale in 1961. I do remember coming to Tucson for a visit in 1969 and falling in love with the desert. Not Tucson, but the surrounding desert. But it IS a harsh environment. And where we live in uncommonly so. We'll look a bit around Prescott and Camp Verde. Northern Arizona is very beautiful and totally different from where I live!

I also dearly love the mountains of central Utah! Worked there for the Utah Division of Wildlife around 1980. Fell in love with it. Richfield is about 3 hours from here (click to enlarge...I think it is worth seeing full size):








​ They have facilities in the bottom for unloading horses. I think hauling horses there, riding, spending a night, riding, and returning home sounds pretty amazing compared to where I've ridden! My wife and I could also haul a small pop-up, camp there for a night or two, and return home while the horses took care of themselves in a pasture. And it is NOT a National Park, State Park, or any park! You can bring your dogs and let them run loose because almost no one knows this area exists! :thumbsup:

Well, maybe. We both are leaning toward moving somewhere else. Not much family ties here anymore. But we need to look hard at a few places, and maybe we'll end up deciding to stay here. Life is full of compromises, but they ought to be KNOWING compromises.


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## egrogan

I grew up in the same house from the day I came home from the hospital until the day I left for college. Once I got to college, it was like this huge _russsssshhhhhh _of realization that the world was so much bigger than the rather sheltered life I had lived (I grew up within 2-3 hours of Montreal, Boston, and NYC and had only been to each of those cities about twice each in my life before college!). I think that realization made me feel a little panicked at the thought of ever being trapped in one place for too long. Fortunately I met my lovely husband, who's also a bit of a wandering spirit, and without kids moving isn't exactly easy, but it is more reasonable than for many people. I like to joke that my cat, who's now 18 years old, has lived in more states than most Americans- 7 so far. I got him a couple of weeks after I graduated college and started my first job in Baton Rouge, LA (a world away from upstate NY!). 

The whole process of moving isn't terribly fun, but we have stripped our lives of most tchotchkes and we can move in a relatively efficient way at this point. The farm we moved into this summer is the 4th home lovely husband and I have owned together since we got married 12 years ago. Always an adventure!:gallop:


I hope you and your wife have fun dreaming up your next adventure and really find a place that fits.


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## bsms

Let's see, @egrogan...as a kid...Minnesota, Michigan, Arizona, Taiwan (both Taipei and Taichung), then Alabama, Delaware, Iceland, and then Arizona. My Dad was killed in Vietnam so we stayed in Arizona until I left for college in Utah. Then Texas, California, Philippines, Idaho, England, Texas again, New Mexico, Washington state, California, Korea and back to Arizona. Deployments to Saudi Arabia and Turkey. LOTS of them. And Afghanistan. Darwin Australia for 3 weeks of flying F-4s against F-18s.

This is the longest I've ever lived in one place. 13 years. Just did a short ride on Bandit in our little arena, with more emphasis on him eating than our riding. Yeah, I'm lazy. We did lots of trots - I'm trying to relearn posting, since I've spent years just standing in the stirrups - and a bunch of short canters. So Bandit gave me lots of what I wanted and I gave him lots of what he wanted and we both seemed very happy at the finish.

The more I think about it, the more I think we need to move. Both northern Arizona and southern Utah are serious contenders. This house has been a wonderful place for us. We've had two families living in it far more than we ever expected. But I'm really thinking 2019 would be a good year to move.


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## SueC

Brett grew up like @*egrogan* , in one house from birth till adulthood and independence - and not travelling that widely. I grew up more like you, @*bsms* , although not quite as extreme in globe-hopping. As a kid, the longest I was ever in the same school was four years - the first four. Then my school tenures were one year, one year, two years, and two years respectively (for anyone adding these up, and missing two years - I skipped two school years entering Australia, due to educational differences with Europe). For my first eleven years, my birth family straddled two countries - Germany and Italy - living part-time in each. Then we came to Australia, and from that time on until Brett and I bought this small farm in 2010, I was basically a gypsy - first with schooling, and then with work - I worked out that from age 11 until I was in my mid-thirties, I'd never lived in the same house for more than two years continuously.

The travelling when I worked deliberately in a number of other Australian states I was interested in between age 30 and age 34 was really great, but by the end of that I was really longing for a stable place, and returned to Albany, the place I loved the most in WA and had already spent two separate stints working in. There was more interstate travelling and working once Brett and I got together, and by 2010 we were so ready to find a place we didn't need to leave again if we didn't want to.

This is the first time I've lived in a house that is also a home, and it's also the first time since age 11 that I have lived in the same house for five whole years! It's a wonderful thing to find some roots.

So I think I can understand how part of you perhaps doesn't want to leave a place that has become a haven to you after all the years of being this sort of gypsy. And all the memories etc. But on the other hand... if you're not 100% happy where you are, and if other places excite you, then there is no reason why you can't set up a "forever" type place where you will both be more happy, and have more opportunities to do the things that you would love to do - and from my outsider's perspective, this sounds like it could work wonderfully for you two. Finding the right spot, then setting yourselves up for the long term - even longer-term than where you have lived in Arizona... a house becomes a home when it becomes your nest and when you love who is in it (self _and_ others! ;-)).

We're sending you good vibes for finding your own little Eden!


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## bsms

OK, I just cannot resist! fftopic: National Geographic article:
Why is wombat poop cube-shaped?


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## SueC

Thank you - fascinating - we actually didn't know that! We've met a few in the wild:




























The most interesting one was the _really_ wild one on a remote mountain track near Lake St Clair, Tasmania, who didn't live on a walk track that was much frequented. He sort of grunt-snarled as he scarpered away from us.

And this is one I got to hold in a wildlife sanctuary:










Orphaned cub being readied for release. I'm sure he didn't want to be passed around from person to person. It's hard to securely hold a wombat without getting close to their privates as well...

We had no idea. Square poop! And looks like scoria too! :rofl:


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## tinyliny

they are bigger than I realized. bulkier than a Racoon.


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## bsms

Look cuddly and poop building blocks!

Being Australian, I assumed they also had some deadly venom, but instead found: "_A wombat may allow an intruder to force its head over the wombat's back, and then use its powerful legs to crush the skull of the predator against the roof of the tunnel, or drive it off with two-legged kicks, like those of a donkey. Mostly, though, they poop out a wall behind them, blocking the predator from entry._"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wombat

OK, I added that last sentence. You won't find it in Wiki! It OUGHT to be there, but I guess it is just my imagination. The Baptist in me, though, would answer "Why is wombat poop cube-shaped?" with "Because God loves to laugh!" Doctors of Theology and non-believers are free to disagree with me. But when I saw an article on a news site, I just started laughing and felt the need to share it. Surely we all ought to be able to unite in enjoying the wonder of the world around us!  Great pictures, @SueC. You live in a wonderful place. We all do if we can get out and about!


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## SueC

This is *your* journal, @*bsms* , and you don't need to use any off-topic signs, or feel beholden to stick to any scripts or topics.  My journal is a complete hotch-potch, and I like it that way. Or I could say: Holistic. 

But jokes aside for a moment, isn't one of the problems with modern life that people are being increasingly shoved into overspecialised areas and not encouraged to see as big a picture as possible? So let's have it all - biology (including of equines ), chemistry, physics, earth science, astronomy, philosophy, theology, linguistics, literature, visual art, music, Pilates, hiking, riding, punk haircuts, beards, martial arts, jokes, cartwheels, architecture, chariot driving, navelgazing, gastronomy, please add dozens more but I have a pear tree that needs my attention in five minutes... All these things are great, and they can all cross-pollinate if we let them, to great advantage.

No question at all I'm a better horseperson because I'm _not_ confined to the silo-like, monomanic tunnel of specialised professional horse dealings since day dot. The broader your life, thoughts and experience, the better you become - as a horseperson, spouse, friend, thinker, doer, etc etc etc. And the greater your freedom.

I loved that CS Lewis quote. He's wonderful with words and concepts. Now I want to read _Perelandra_ all over again! But I've got @*gottatrot* 's journal and a few other things to finish catching up on before all that. AndI _know_ I need glasses. Perhaps a hearing aid too? Maybe I can get a two-for-the-price-of-one deal. Maybe they both come in purple, that'd be good. But I digress.

The problem is the compartmentalisation of everything. Let it be a rich and interconnected compost heap instead... _then_ we can really grow things!

Speaking of, I thought the wombat droppings would make excellent biodegradable hippie Lego... :Angel:


PS: If you're interested in going off-grid, I'll be posting something on the topic over at my "house".


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## bsms

I was going to post this here, but decided it might have more value as a tack review. More people will see it there, and maybe they will consider boots for a problematic horse:

*Hoof boots and Bandit - a success story!*​


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## bsms

Came across this...some movie horse antics (sound is kind of squirrelly) :


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## SueC

I think it's kind of hilarious that it's the interviewer wearing the cowboy boots, and the rider has come in in sneakers!


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## bsms

I find it more ridiculous when I see Italian "Indians" riding on blankets with stirrups sticking out underneath. Hollywood! I'm generally content if the rider doesn't flap his arms like a bird trying to take off, or yank the bit halfway thru the horse's head.

But I also love stories when the riders appreciate the horses. A number of actors were excellent riders. In some obscure film, Noah Beery Jr jumped on a horse bareback, and rode him as they scrambled up a steep, rock-covered slope without reins or problem. I couldn't tell you the name of the film, but its only highlight for me was watching someone ride so well and so fluidly WITH his horse like that! I'm guessing the director liked it too, because it started with a closeup of Beery and then flowed in a single shot until horse & rider disappeared quite a ways up.

26 Men was a low budget western series set in southern Arizona. I don't see folks riding across the Sonoran Desert, off trail, in many movies! Down dirt roads? Yes. Off trail? No!

But they did it often in that series. There was a beautiful scene where a horse and rider zig-zag back and forth, twisting, dodging Teddy Bear Cholla, ducking under and between cactus - and as they pass, you can see the face of the main star. And both the horse and rider looked HAPPY!

The theme song was stupid, but Bandit has heard several variations of it, although the variations are all about "26 HORSES' who save Arizona. I think Bandit approves of my versions. He knows he is the star:


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## bsms

I received communication from another poster that I wanted to respond to, but the 7,717 characters in my response were nearly 8 times the limit. So I post it here. Guess that makes it a long response!
---------------------------​ I don't believe horses bend laterally under us. Their rib cage and sternum provide a bone box underneath us. It isn't just the spine that doesn't bend well. The entire rib cage and the muscles between each rib limit flexibility underneath us. Yet we think moving our outside leg a few inches back will keep the horse bent in a curve of a circle, while we use inner leg a few inches ahead to block the horse.

As CUES - trained responses - "When I do X, I want you to respond with Y" - that is fine. The horse then translates our legs and adjusts how he moves HIS legs to give us a feeling we like. Well, some like. That is fine, but a horse doesn't actually turn on a curve. Littuaer taught forward motion as a displaced equilibrium that the horse then catches, and then the next step involves displaced equilibrium again. Turning is the same. Try it while walking or jogging. You will turn in a way we try to prevent out horses from turning - by shifting your balance off center to the left, then moving your left foot to prevent your falling. Then repeat. If I painted two circles on the floor, and insisted you keep your feet EXACTLY on those circles while walking, you would find it very hard. And very impractical. Because the underlying THEORY of how one turns doesn't match the reality that we do NOT turn in a smooth curve.

I have serious heartburn with trying to make horses do things that conflict with reality. A beginning rider doesn't need to contemplate it immediately, but a rider taking lessons WILL encounter the problem sooner or later: Most instructors teach a human judge perspective on riding instead of letting the horse teach us. That creates conflict for the horse, which then is resolved either by dominance or by breeding submissiveness. Or ulcers, which are very common in sports horses!

Regarding relaxed turns: If the horse is willing to listen and seeking to obey a human, then yes. I can turn Bandit by looking hard - in an arena, and when he isn't interested in anything else. A significant part of our trail riding is done without conscious thought on my part. We just do. Because horses are incredibly subtle. But any horse who also has its own mind - as Mia and Bandit both have in spades - will often need more. Maybe much more. Neither one, on a trail, concentrates on pleasing me! Mia, and now Bandit, are constantly aware and constantly thinking. Bandit certainly understands he smells and hears things I cannot. He points things out to me. He also accepts that if I've seen something, I will know more about it than he does. Even then, though, he will not surrender his will to me.

If he doesn't like the footing, the direction, the speed, the distances between the horses behind us (whom he can see when I cannot), he will offer HIS ideas. We then have a discussion. Depending on how strongly each of us desires an outcome, we may BOTH resist each other. Until we come to a compromise we both find suitable. Strolling with my arm around my wife may be a good way for us to stroll through a park. It would be entirely out of place on a combat patrol - and Mia, and now Bandit, regard trail rides as combat patrols through hostile territory.
















​
That may be why I rarely use leg cues for turns. *If nothing is happening, a leg cue is more than Bandit needs. If something is going on, it isn't enough.
*
And I think new riders DESERVE to be taught how to deal with horses out of the arena. Green horses. Or experienced horses who don't adore their riders. We do a new rider no favors by teaching them to ride pretty on a calm, bored horse who isn't likely to make any sudden movements. A steady state horse, who trots at a given speed until told to do otherwise, who turns wehn told and goes straight when told, is negative training for trail riding. I have a little arena. I use it to practice some things. But I don't mistake it for the real world.

Of course, IT IS THE REAL WORLD for some riders and horses. If someone never wants to leave the arena, and their horse finds it acceptable, that is fine. 

But the habits of riding a calm horse in steady state motion in the arena will screw someone on a good trail horse in the open. There is ZERO reason to ask a trail horse to turn while bending its body in a curve (that it cannot do anyways). A half halt to "rebalance" your horse is pretty silly on a trail. It is too subtle to be useful if the horse IS losing balance, and adds nothing when the horse IS balanced - as most trail horses strive to be at all times because they ARE horses and don't want to fall any more than we do!

On a trail - the real world for me - I don't want my horse stopping just because my seat isn't moving with him. I may be turning around to look behind me, or adjusting a camera, or scratching my butt. My legs will move forward, back, independent of each other, and do so constantly as an aid to my balance and to set me up for success if he spooks in the next 5 seconds.

There is nothing wrong with adding arena type "subtlety" later on, if wished. I generally find it either too subtle to be useful, or too loud to be needed. But if one wants to do it later, fine. However, I think new riders should learn, ASAP, that their horse is a thinking, feeling partner who can read your mind - if you let him. Who can chat with you - if you let him. Who should NOT be made to trot 45 minutes non-stop to please you, if pleasing you thru motion is the only reason for it. Who will work hard to achieve your mutual goals - if you let him. Until someone can view a horse as a helpful friend who knows more than the rider does about many areas of riding, they shouldn't learn anything but the simplest of cues.

"_The facts that demonstrate the irrefutable truth of what I assert are perhaps more numerous than you would believe. *The first rule of good riding is to simplify the aides and reduce the interference of the rider with the horse.* Enough of applying the hands to hold back a horse while at the same time applying leg to move it forward to instill resolve and determination in the horse! If at the appropriate time the rider applies one of these actions and then releases it and remains passive and does not disturb the horse under work, the results will be beautiful. To do otherwise will result in discomfort to the horse.

Remember that it is very easy to pull on the horse and do harm but it is very difficult to give to the horse always under any circumstance - and this is something a rider must learn and be taught. He who has the ability to concentrate this way will always give to the horse and apply the aides in due time, applying contact in the right measure._" - On Riding in the Field by Federico Caprilli, translated by Daniel Gilmore ( Federico Caprilli, Per L'Equitazione Di Campagna - On Cross Country Riding )

Different translator, but Caprilli also wrote: ". . . the horse who has rational exercise, during which he is allowed to balance himself as he pleases, not being punished with needless suffering, develops in the most efficient fashion, with great advantage to his way of carrying himself, and becomes docile and submissive to the wishes of the rider."

I think the subtle cues of proper riding, that are taught with so much effort and which are a source of pride to many, are harmful to riding with the horse. They are either too loud or too soft, and not based on "rational exercise", and thus do not lead to a horse who carries himself well and truly moves with his rider. Apart from specific sports, our goal should be to let the horse be as horse-like as possible, and to interfere with his horsey-ness to the smallest degree possible. We should focus on enabling, not determining.


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## bsms

PS: I actually use my legs all the time with Bandit. But all I need to know or he needs to understand is to move away from pressure, and then apply that to the specific situation. So if we need to scoot sideways to get out of some cactus, a little leg directly to his side says "move over, please". And being a practical horse, he usually already knows the solution and is only waiting for me to get up to speed. He likes me to feel like I'm in charge...


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## bsms

I ought to add one more point. I am not, in any way, looking down on arena riding or horse sports. I just think a foundation of understanding the horse's mind and balance should be laid first. THEN add on.

Jogging yesterday, I re-injured my back. Same spot that got hurt on Mia in Jan 2009. Slow jog, then it felt like someone shot me in the back. Last night was horrible. When I watch videos of me cantering on Bandit, I hate how stiff I look. And I look stiff because I am stiff. I don't have the physical ability to race barrels, do cutting, jump, or look like anything other than a total idiot in dressage. Too much hurts, Too stiff. Maybe mentally stiff, too. I'm not athletic enough to be a good arena rider! Mom used to tell me "_Old age is not for the timid!_" I'm learning what she meant.

So I'm not looking down on specialized arena type riding as inferior. I do think too much riding is based on false theories of motion, false ideas about horses, and that the arena sports would be better done if (and WHEN, because it does happen already) people appreciate their horses minds. Horses are people too. I've never taken a new rider out on a trail ride and had them not realize, within minutes, that a thinking, feeling creature was carrying them.

As long as instruction books discuss "Rein EFFECTS" instead of "Rein CUES", I'll believe we have a problem. As long as people habitually say, "Use your leg to create impulsion" instead of "Ask for more impulsion with your leg", I'll believe we have a problem.


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## gottatrot

Really good posts. 
Along these lines, I've been trying very hard lately to get out of the habit of using conflicting cues together. It's interesting how we're taught to really complicate cues until we believe they have so much more meaning than they do. 

One thing I was taught in dressage was to always push a horse forward into a stop. This is a habit I'm finding difficult to break. But you're saying go-stop-go, when all you really want a horse to do is stop in a balanced manner. If the horse is in balance, they still stop balanced, and all they need is the stop cue. They don't require us to say "go forward" as we are asking them to stop. It is conflicting information.
We make it really difficult for ourselves, asking a horse to relax while causing tension by asking them to do two things at once.

Something I think separates a green horse from a more experienced horse is that a horse can learn to move with your balance, to stay balanced with the rider. So when you're going along a line and looking in a certain direction, the horse can learn to balance under your posture and move toward the direction your posture is taking. 

I'm working on being more clear, and not using conflicting cues at the same time. If I want go, then I don't want to add rein pressure saying stop. If I want a horse to slow down at the trot, I should just use bit pressure and not add leg.

Some people think it is ideal to ride just off seat cues. I think this can be very confusing for a horse. If a horse learns to balance off your seat, and to stay under your posture, that is good. I was reading lately that people highly overestimate how much pressure a horse feels from "seat bones" and I think that is true. If our saddles are distributing weight properly, there should be no way a horse could feel that our seat bone was pushing them forward or etc. 

When we get off the saddle or sit heavily into it, horses do feel that. Other than that, I believe they just feel if we are in balance over their back or not. So all of this pushing the horse forward with the seat and such...what you're really doing is affecting the balance of where your weight comes down on the horse. 

If you lean back, you're changing where your center of gravity is. A horse can learn that if you are behind their motion, you want them to push forward and extend their gaits. But it is really just a cue you have taught them, and you could also teach them the same thing if you got up off the saddle and had them extend (which I have done in endurance riding). 
You see some ridiculous things sometimes, with people leaning super far back as if that will mean their seat will _push_ the horse forward into more extreme extension. That is a rider delusion. The horse is following a cue, and a horse can extend massively with the rider forward as well.









So I think you make some very good points about us understanding we are teaching the horse a cue, which can be anything we choose, versus our reins or legs are _causing_ the horse to do certain things.


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## tinyliny

I think a lot of times when someone leans way back when asking the horse to trot super extended, it is more for the rider's benefit, since they position themselves so that the increased motion goes up , and sort of out through the more opened front of the pelvis. 

(I know, this is not physics to say , 'goes out through the front of the pelvis', but I mean they are better able to undulate their pelvis when the whole back is not stacked directly over the pelvis. It is kind of like 'surfing the back of the wave'.



It looks terrible, and truly skilled classical riders scoff at this. they know that you 'surf' the FRONT of the wave. , being that you may actually extend your abdomen a tiny bit forward.




The French method of dressage is 'legs without hands, and hands without legs', just as you are saying, Gotta.


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## bsms

"Baucher returned to Paris and while he was working a young horse in the circus ring, a huge chandelier fell on him. Luckily he survived but was so injured that he never rode in public again. Without the strength of his legs, Baucher revised his method and developed his _deuxième manière, _which looked like a reversal of the first one. Let Racinet explain:

Last but not least, the new axiom is set forth: ‘Hands without legs, legs without hand.”

“As he heard it, Major Gerhardt, an adept of the ‘first manner’ exclaimed, ‘Then Baucher is no longer Baucher!’ Quite the contrary, Baucher was becoming Baucher. This axiom ‘hand without legs, legs without hand’ appeared for the first time in 1864, with the 12th edition of the ‘method’. That’s quite a long time after the accident; but it is explained by the fact that the contract Baucher had with his publisher for all practical purposes prevented him from bringing any major changes in his text. Only by the 12th edition was he in a position to express himself more completely.”

https://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/whos-who/baucher-francois/​ 
I agree, but my goals are so far different that my differences outweigh my agreement. When I read texts and books on riding, I keep finding, again and again, an approach that ignores the horse's will. And mind. For example, George Morris writes, "_First, the rider closes and fixes the hands, preventing the horse from walking forward; then he applies both legs just behind the girth, causing the horse to move up into the fixed hand; since at this point the hand blocks all forward escape from the active pressure of the legs, the horse moves backwards..._" - Hunter Seat Equitation

If nothing else, Mia taught me my hands do not EVER "prevent the horse from walking forward"! My hands could inflict pain on her if she moved forward, but Mia and Mia alone CONTROLLED her motion! Nor do my legs CAUSE any forward motion. They ASK.

And these distinctions are very important. If the only way a horse could get you to stop tapping on his neck with a stick was to back up, then the correct cue for backing up, for THAT horse, would be to tap on his neck with a stick! The language of equitation is the language of driving a car: "_Push down on the gas, but don't also push down on the brake. When you push the gas pedal further down, the car will go faster." _True for a car. Not true for a horse. This Baptist Boy thanks God! that Mia would, if SHE desired, race backwards while I brutally whipped her "forward". An extremely important lesson was learned that day: MY HORSE WAS ALIVE! And she had 4 feet on the ground, and I had zero, so where we went was ultimately under HER control.

Since that day, it would never occur to me to say, "_I created impulsion with my leg._" Only Bandit can create impulsion, with HIS legs, and I can only ask. I instinctively, reflexively, say "_I asked Bandit for more speed_", or "_I asked Bandit for more oomph!_" - oomph being a highly technical term for impulsion! 

*I would LOVE to run up to a clinician discussing how he creates impulsion and just start kicking the tar out of him. "What are you DOING?", he'd scream. "I'm creating impulsion", I'd reply. "How do you like it?"*

From another book, "_...when you sit, you back has an arch, which this rider is deliberately exaggerating. When you push with it, the arch straightens out. You are then pushing the horse forward with your bottom or seat bones._" No, you are humping the horse, or look like it, although the anatomy won't result in the creation of centaurs. If the horse has been TRAINED to go faster when you hump the saddle, and if it is willing, it will "_push forward_". Otherwise, you're...well, polishing the saddle. Do it on Cowboy when he is nibbling some grass, and you can polish until the leather is gone. Cowboy will still be munching!

Yet I don't own a book that is written from the "Ask" perspective - except, I think, the wonderful TOM ROBERTS. How can so many expert riders have it so wrong? Why is it so many expert riders never say, "I asked my horse..."


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## SueC

tinyliny said:


> I think a lot of times when someone leans way back when asking the horse to trot super extended, it is more for the rider's benefit...
> 
> It looks terrible, and truly skilled classical riders scoff at this. they know that you 'surf' the FRONT of the wave. , being that you may actually extend your abdomen a tiny bit forward.


You mean like this dressage demonstrator is demonstrating at 2.13 into this clip? :rofl: ...even the audience erupts into knowing sniggers...





 @bsms, this fella seems to have a good working relationship with his horse. What do you think of his unorthodox birch branches?

Enjoying the thoughtful posts!


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## SueC

bsms said:


> *I would LOVE to run up to a clinician discussing how he creates impulsion and just start kicking the tar out of him. "What are you DOING?", he'd scream. "I'm creating impulsion", I'd reply. "How do you like it?"*


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:




> Yet I don't own a book that is written from the "Ask" perspective - except, I think, the wonderful TOM ROBERTS. How can so many expert riders have it so wrong? Why is it so many expert riders never say, "I asked my horse..."


I think it was really lucky that I bumped into his four slim volumes at the stockfeeds as a teenager. They were just about to go out of print. I've never had better books for getting me to reflect on my riding, and helping me to ground and saddle train horses. Do you remember how he starts off his first book?


*TRAINING PROCEDURES:*

“_That will profit you” - “That will profit you not”_
“_Quiet persistence”_
“_End-of-Lesson”, what it means_
“_Old Hat”_
_Use of voice in training_

Few people who set out to train and educate a young horse give any thought to the great difficulties that face the horse.

How many of us setting out to teach him have given serious thought or study of HOW to teach him: how to establish a system of signals or aids that most riders grow up with and accept as being natural, but of which the horse has no knowledge whatsoever?

I am going to ask you a question, and before you read on I would like you to answer it clearly – to yourself.

_Question_: “Why does a horse stop or go slower if you pull on the reins?” If you answer, “Because it hurts the mouth,” I am sorry to have to break the news to you – you have failed.

But no, I'll give you another chance: “Why do you jump up instantly if you sit on an upturned tack or drawing pin?”

If you answer again: “Because it hurts” - you really do need to read every word in this book!

_The horse stops – and you jump up – not just because it hurts, but to stop it hurting. By no means the same thing._

And there isn't any doubt: if jumping up didn't stop the pain, _you_ would try doing something else. So, too, eventually, does the horse. _These are not trick questions._ If you really believe in and act on the answer you gave to the first, then you think that all you have to do is to hurt your horse's mouth and he will stop.

On the contrary, the important thing is to let him know – to teach him – how, by doing what you want of him, he can _avoid_ any pain, irritation, inconvenience and discomfort the bit (or whip or spur) might otherwise cause. Good trainers do everything they possibly can to avoid hurting the horse or even letting him hurt himself. Our real goal should be never to have to hurt our horse.

_Reward and punishment _is often cited as the secret of successful horse training and undoubtedly both rewards and punishments have their place. But – we should seldom, if ever, resort to punishment when teaching our horse anything new. Punishment, when we use it, should be reserved for exceptional occasions. Don't think “Reward and Punishment.”

_Encourage and discourage_ is a better guide, as it drops the term “punishment.” When riding a young horse we alternate from encourage to discourage very frequently and quite often change from discourage to encourage several times in a matter of seconds.

But the term “discourage” still has the drawback that it _can_ include punishment; and we should discard any term that could include punishment as a normal training procedure. Punishment and teaching are “divorced.”

It is to avoid using any expression that could possibly include punishment as a normal teaching procedure that I suggest you think in the terms:

“_*That will profit you – that will profit you not.”*_

These terms mean exactly – _exactly_ – what they say.

“_To Profit”_ is to benefit or gain: to be better off. The profit to the horse can be any reward or encouragement the trainer may think his pupil should receive – and it must, of course, be available to give.

“_To Profit Not”_ means that the horse will gain or benefit not at all. Just that. It certainly does not mean that he will suffer a loss or be worse off – as he would be if he were punished.

This is what is so important about these expressions – and why I use them. By no stretch of the imagination can “Profit you not” be construed as punishment.

_It consists of withholding any gain, reward, encouragement and profit. That, and only that._


_*Quiet Persistence*_

“It will profit you not” means that the horse will not be encouraged to follow a line of conduct other than what we have in mind for him. We withhold any gain – which means we quietly continue with our demands, whatever they may be.

_We persist. We quietly persist with our demands._

This gentle discouragement of “quiet persistence” is something that horse seem to find irresistible. Whenever you are in doubt as to what course to follow, mounted or dismounted, revert to “Quiet Persistence.” Your quiet persistence is the real “That will profit you not.” It discourages the horse _without punishing him_.

Punishment does have its place in the training scheme, with some horses more clearly than with others – but even then it should be used only occasionally. Do not revert to punishment when you are trying to teach the horse something new. It upsets the horse and destroys the calmness so essential to his taking-in a new lesson. So punishments are “out” when teaching any new lesson. 


_*End of Lesson*_

_End of Lesson is the best, most effective and most convenient of all rewards and encouragements._

What End of Lesson means:
When teaching a horse almost anything at all – no matter what it is, “End of Lesson” means a pause, a break, a rest for a while – or even, on some occasions, completely finishing the work for the day _at the moment_ the horse has made or is making progress in a lesson.

_At the very instant_ of the action that constitutes progress, the teacher ends the lesson – for a while, at least.

Ending a lesson constitutes a reward, an encouragement, an incentive to the horse to try to follow and understand what is being taught to him.

_*The End-of-Lesson procedure is probably the most important procedure in the scheme of horse training.*_

We use the End-of-Lesson technique from the first day our young horse is yarded and continue using it to the last day of his schooling.

_End-of-Lesson_ is always available for use.

Because it is easy for the horse to understand, it keeps him calm and so leads to the greatest progress. When the horse is calm, the most permanent impressions are made on his mind.

End-of-Lesson is of equal value to the trainer. It keeps him looking for and recognising progress as the horse tries first one thing and then another. He looks for progress to encourage – rather than “stupidity” to punish.


“_*Old Hat”*_

“Old Hat” is another expression I will repeatedly use to indicate the horse's attitude to a previous experience. He (I pretend) says: “Old Hat!” whenever he is asked to do, again, something he has already proved to be not objectionable.

The “Old Hat” technique is literally used in hundreds of ways – as you will read later on. It means we do something (or get the horse to do something) new – and then before anything can go wrong or he becomes upset, we “End-the-Lesson.”

Next time he is in a similar position, he remembers nothing unpleasant resulted from the first occasion, and he remains calm. A few repetitions and he accepts it (whatever it is) as “Old Hat.”

An instance: we separate a foal from its dam for a few moments. Before the foal has time to become very excited at finding itself alone, we put them together again. Tomorrow or on some other occasion, we separate them again and once more put them together after a short period. We do this several times and after a while the foal ceases to worry. “It's 'Old Hat' - nothing to worry about, we'll get together again later on!” seems to be the reaction.

_This is a characteristic of the horse._ Recognise it and keep it in mind. From it we learn _*to repeat lessons rather than to prolong*_ them – particularly if what we are doing or getting the horse to do is exciting or frightening to him.


_*Use of the Voice in Teaching *_*(excerpt)*

The use of the voice can be very useful at times to let the horse know when he is on the right track, particularly in the early dismounted work. There are scores of things you do not want him to do on any occasion and he may try quite a number of them. To each attempt you gently say “No,” “No,” and you quietly and gently persist with your demands.

Think and act gently and kindly – for he is trying. Say , “No,” “No,” gently and quietly, but in a manner he could not possibly confuse with your “Purring” (pleasant tone of voice for reinforcing correct behaviour, “That's _right_, _clever_ boy...” etc).

The voice can convey to him “Approved” or “Not Approved” almost simultaneously with his action, and under all circumstances – mounted or dismounted.

There's no end to the number of things you do NOT want him to do and he may try out a few of them or all of them. To each attempt you should gently indicate to him: “Not that,” “Not that.” Or better still, think, “Not that, Boy;” think gently, think kindly; he is trying.

Most important of all, when he does show the slightest tendency to do the ONE thing you _do_ want, you must instantly change your “tune” and substitute, “That's right,” or “That's better, clever Boy...clever Boy.” Then “End of Lesson” - have a rest.

_The really important thing is your ability to show approval or disapproval instantly._

Two seconds later will be too late. Sometimes the youngster will have tried so many things that if your approval is late he will have difficulty in knowing what _did_ please you.

If your use the same purring tone always – and instantly – and only to show approval, you will find he relaxes the instant you begin to use it. When mounted you can FEEL him relax under you, and you'll be able to imagine him thinking: “That's good! Struck it at last. Now, exactly what DID I do to please the man?”


*A LESSON IS ANYTHING YOU TEACH YOUR HORSE – GOOD OR BAD*

Every experience the young horse has becomes a lesson. If what he learns is useful to us, we like to call it “training”or “education.” But if what he learns is a nuisance or dangerous, we often brand it a “vice.”

(Roberts goes on to describe how people unwittingly form vices in horses by letting up - “Ending-the-Lesson” - at the wrong moment, by creating situations where that can easily occur, by punishing horses, by ill-fitting and painful gear, by expecting instant perfection rather than immediately encouraging _small progress in the right direction_, thereby confusing the horse, etc.- and what to do about it when this has already happened. And that's only the start of the book – some basics, before meticulously covering safety of horse and handler, age at education, groundwork, lunging, early ridden training, teaching basic dressage, light hand-light mouth, impulsion, traffic, shying, spookiness, and teaching to trailer. More advanced training – higher-level dressage, jumping, etc is covered in the sequel.) 

An independent thinker and a keen observer, our TR.

:charge:


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## SueC

bsms said:


> And I think new riders DESERVE to be taught how to deal with horses out of the arena. Green horses. Or experienced horses who don't adore their riders. We do a new rider no favors by teaching them to ride pretty on a calm, bored horse who isn't likely to make any sudden movements. A steady state horse, who trots at a given speed until told to do otherwise, who turns wehn told and goes straight when told, is negative training for trail riding. I have a little arena. I use it to practice some things. But I don't mistake it for the real world.


The riding schools in the area I lived in till age 11 got people started in arenas and then took them on the trails ASAP: When you had basic skills in a controlled environment, they took you out into an uncontrolled environment - same horses. From the time you had the basics, you rode in both settings. This was how they did it at the little rural riding school near Munich where I learnt to ride as a child, and this is how other friends learning at other nearby schools reported it went for them as well. Everybody wanted to let their hair down and go on a trail as well, not just do riding drills in the arena. And we all understood that we didn't do ballet when hiking - it was a different sort of activity.

It's also how it was represented in literature about horses in Europe in the 1970s/80s - including a much-loved best-selling Swedish fiction series about horses and riding, which was loosely autobiographical and written by a rider / instructor / eventer / trail and horse camping enthusiast.

I guess there are also places that do nothing except instruct in the arena. I would find that really monotonous - much as I enjoy classical dressage. It'd be like only ever being allowed to exercise in a ballet class, and never being allowed to go hiking... I'd get severe nature and freedom deficit. I wonder how horses go...



> Of course, IT IS THE REAL WORLD for some riders and horses. If someone never wants to leave the arena, and their horse finds it acceptable, that is fine.


If it does... but does it know any better? So many sport horses now are essentially institutionalised. See here:

https://www.horseforum.com/horse-talk/do-horses-love-us-798237/page9/#post1970637435


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## bsms

*Long rant, but important for ethical riding IMHO*

My Mom agreed to pay for a couple of lesson packages when I was a teen. Group lessons. You bought 10-15 lessons. At college, I took a class for a quarter that were riding lessons. While in California, I took a couple months of lessons in jumping. Not really lessons, but being on a horse who jumped. No helmets & no advice that I recall. Then didn't get on a horse until I was 50. Took some lessons around 2010-ish.

Every lesson was in an arena. My only riding outdoors prior to buying Mia was when visiting ranches, and that was minimal. So my view of lessons tends to be 6 people riding in circles while someone screeches, "_Toes front! Heels down!_" On a ranch, I'd be told, "_Stay out of his mouth if possible_". But mostly it was assumed the horse & I would work things out while riding. I view that as a better way to learn.


> "_As the inside hand takes up and increases pressure through the action of an indirect rein, the outside hand moves out and yields to the front in direct proportion to the inside hand's pressure. Thus, one hand complements the other so the horse can bend into his turn...The inside leg, placed just behind the girth, acts as a driving, bending force. The outside leg lies about a hand (four inches) behind the girth, where it acts as a supporting aid, controlling the haunches and keeping them on the track of the circle._" - George Morris, in his classic Hunter Seat Equitation


It was one of the first books on riding I bought. It is famous. And it is drivel. Really! Think about it...your inside leg is four inches in front of the outside leg, yet your inside leg bends the horse while your outside leg controls the horse's rear legs. Umm...George, have you ever LOOKED at a horse & rider? Really looked? The horse's torso is 5-6 feet long. It is impressive that a horse can FEEL a 4 inch difference in where a rider's legs are. And that 4" controls a 5 foot long body? Are you kidding?

How hard would it be to say, "_As riders, think of it this way: You use a little inside rein to ask for a turn, keep your inside leg firm but not pushing to ask him not to cut across the circle, and move your outside leg a few inches back and press lightly to let him know you don't want him to pivot and swing his rump out. 
_
_In reality, the horse will not break down and analyze these things. A trained horse will know the combination of your requests means 'Walk in a circle', while an untrained horse will need to experiment, trying many things until he realized walking in a circle when you do those things together means you will stop fussing at him - that you will be happy and he can feel safe._" 

Why is it that virtually every riding manual and every famous rider talks as if the horse is an inanimate object? Why is it so rare to see one say, "_I ask my horse..._" Is it because these ideas come naturally while hacking, but people wouldn't admire riders or pay clinicians for clinics if they wrote, as Littauer did when older:


> "_All over the country, in small communities, there are people, both adults and children, who own their hacks, often take care of them themselves, *and ride them pleasantly without any technical knowledge of how to control a horse*. In their quiet riding, which is unabusive to the horse, the efficiency of control is based on well-established mutual confidence; here a pat, there a word or two, are more effective in such cases than a pull on the reins. This love of the animal and the understanding of his mentality and emotions is always pleasant to observe and one could only wish that the knowledge of control on an intermediate level could be added to this ideal type of association between the mount 'and his rider. [_My comment - Why?_]
> 
> An understanding of the horse's mentality is extremely important in schooling. As a rule its consideration distinguishes a good trainer from a bad one, but such simple things as that the horse is easily upset by a rapid succession of orders, by sudden and frequent changes of speeds and, once upset by a certain behavior of the rider will remember it for a long time, should be appreciated even by riders who ride on the elementary level. Through a considerate behavior in the saddle, which a horse will remember as well as a disturbing one, one can build up the horse's confidence to the point where minimum and truly elementary control with hands and legs will be all that will be necessary to go through woods and across fields._"


Even then, the obvious evades Littauer: If horse and rider can be happy as a team crossing open country using a spirit of fondness and cooperation, then why does one "_wish that *the knowledge of control* on an intermediate level could be added to this ideal type of association between the mount 'and his rider_"?

An elementary level of control IS needed to get to a happy horse and rider out riding. Certainly not every horse will just say, "If my rider says slow, I'll slow". A rider needs to be able to say certain things are not acceptable. Otherwise the horse will think they are. But even there, the language of discussion or even argument is more appropriate than that of "control". No one argues with a hammer. Discussions and arguments require another person. But we treat horses like hammers!

I was told Mia could not be ridden out of an arena until I controlled every part of her body. If true, it would have meant we could NEVER have ridden outdoors! I needed to be able to set boundaries. I needed a common language so we could discuss options. I did not need to control her body parts!

Too often, from the first lesson, with every book and video, we teach new riders to dominate. Or at least to try to dominate an inanimate horse. We TEACH riders to disrespect horses. We TEACH that riding horses is only safe when we CONTROL the horse. Riding becomes something akin to tennis - hold the racquet this way, swing thus, use your body this way to get more power. But horses are living beings, not racquets!

Is it ethical to ride in a way that requires unquestioned obedience? Is it ethical to treat a horse as if it is an ATV?​


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## SueC

bsms said:


> Is it ethical to ride in a way that requires unquestioned obedience? Is it ethical to treat a horse as if it is an ATV?


That's a great question! (And that was an _excellent_ post. )

And in my book, the answer is no.

Funnily enough, you know, it wasn't that long ago the wedding vow included that the wife had to _obey_ the husband. We've still got people in this rural community here today who think wives should be seen and not heard and that the man should make all the decisions. Isn't it funny how something like that can swing from venerated social norm to now being exposed as a form of coercive control?

And I guess, thinking about your post, you're objecting to horses being coercively controlled by riders.


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## bsms

My daughter referred to 'toxic masculinity' once. I asked her how she defined it. She mentioned a couple we know where the husband makes all the final decisions. The wife may object, but in the end, the husband makes all the decisions for the family.

I dislike the term toxic masculinity, but I couldn't argue against her definition. I did, however, suggest it was "toxic humanity", pointing out I've seen couples like that in reverse. She agreed, although we both agreed it was probably more common to see a man treat a woman like that...but not by much, IMHO. I guess I've seen toxic femininity almost as much as toxic masculinity.

Toxic humanity might be how many horses view humans. In his heart, I think Cowboy still does. He stays calm when I scratch his withers while he eats and ask him how he likes his hay, but even a small wrong movement will result in him fleeing to the far side of the corral - and we've owned him for 6 years now. He is very alert for any sign a human is about to go psycho. Trooper, Mia, Lilly & Bandit do not, but they were never lesson horses and didn't have at least 6 owners.

I think we teach toxic equitation. It is very unpopular to say it, but it twists my guts every time I see, "_My horse has 23 hours a day to eat and poop. When I'm there, he can please me. It's his JOB!_" I see it often enough on HF, and I never know if responding is worth it.

Who here would want to be married to someone whose principle of marriage was "Ask, Tell, DEMAND!" Yet that might be the most common advice on training. For safety issues, I accept it. Both horse and rider can die or be seriously crippled in some situation. Demand is appropriate then. But when demand is in the form, "_You'll trot in circles for 60 minutes or else! I'm working on my equitation, and pleasing me is your JOB!_" - how is that NOT toxic?

Horses have changed me, even starting at 50. They are such FEELING creatures that they have opened up, a little, my own awareness and willingness to have feelings. With "Quiet Persistence" and by rewarding any slightly successful try, Mia and Bandit have whittled away at my shell. Horses have made me a better person, but it works in reverse as well. The ability to get away with DEMAND, and others encouraging it, can damage the human soul. Like many "trials" in life, horses can refine you. Or you can destroy yourself. IIRC, @SueC, you once asked me if riders treated other people the way they treat their horses. I think the answer is yes. And I was fortunate enough to buy Mia. She refused to believe I could be mean or dominating to her. I found myself changing to meet her expectations of me. That opened doors.


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## Hondo

This particular portion of a paragraph by Tom Roberts, who I also admire, bothers me some as it seems a form of avoidance coping.

Quote: On the contrary, the important thing is to let him know – to teach him – how, by doing what you want of him, he can avoid any pain, irritation, inconvenience and discomfort the bit (or whip or spur) might otherwise cause.


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## bsms

I don't think any of us is perfect. Tom Roberts started in the British Cavalry prior to World War One. Like the American and French cavalries, they taught "_The horse should believe God is on his back and the Devil is at his belly (spurs)!_" Littauer probably had the same teaching pounded into him as a young man in the Russian Cavalry. :eek_color: Yeah, just what I want to teach a horse - that I can be satanic!

I do believe a human may need to cause pain, irritation or inconvenience for the horse. A horse who bolts in panic at the first sign of something scary (Mia) is dangerous. I was on quite a few with Mia. She couldn't get better until I was able to set a few firm boundaries: No bolting. No spinning, at least not intentionally. If pain made it possible to set those boundaries, then pain was good.

Sometimes other options open up. Bandit was trained to run and win. Can't blame him for it, but it made him hard to stop on a trail. So I'd ask him to stop just before we got to a rocky spot in the trail. If he stopped, it was fine. If he didn't, he hurt his feet. And Bandit, The Horse Who Thinks, made the connection - my rider knows about bad things ahead and is helping me. Once he figured that out, he found listening to me could help him in other areas. But I did set him up so that not listening would result in pain - in that case, pain that was the logical outcome of his actions.

If I lived in wide open country, I might have taken a different approach. But running away in a place like this "safe place" could cost both of us our lives, or cause me to lose a leg when a car hit us, etc. He panicked once, starting about 200 yards in front of his head in this picture, cutting across the yards on the right of the picture, and ending up on a different road. Note: I wasn't riding him at the time, and wouldn't have pushed him the way the rider did:








​
It is one thing to accept imposing pain to ultimately help the person being hurt. Surgery, so to speak. It is another thing to impose pain because we expect the other to suffer for our pleasure - trotting in circles for an hour.

I think Tom Roberts, @*Hondo* , based on examples he gives, meant teaching a horse that listening to us meant good things. Within some constraints. The horse may still need to cover 25 miles herding sheep, but within that constraint on both horse and rider, the rider will try to make it as painless as possible. And any pain will have a reason, and that reason will not be some arbitrary pleasure the horse cannot share in.


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## gottatrot

Thinking about the above posts...It is interesting that people both think horses are mentally like three year old children yet also brilliant enough to be thinking "OK, that cue was three inches farther back on my barrel, so that means shift my hindquarters one foot to the left." 

I've not yet met a three year old that could be steered with that precision. Or steered much at all.

It is sad how many horses are set up from the beginning to have antagonistic relationships with people. I'm still working through this with Hero. I'm not saying they necessarily treat horses poorly on the track, but even though we're starting to become friends, his default is that he is defensive. If I move toward him with a brush, he gets ready to tell me it's too rough or to make faces at me. 

He's getting to where he does not automatically think the saddle and girth are going to be slammed down and pulled up tight. But I see that it has been very habitual for him to be in a defensive mode with all handling, because people have treated him as "horse number 23" rather than a thinking, feeling being with opinions. 
Cowboy has more of a mindset to flee, perhaps, and Hero is more of a fighter. But both responses are just to defend themselves. How sad that horses are taught this.


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## SueC

bsms said:


> My daughter referred to 'toxic masculinity' once. I asked her how she defined it. She mentioned a couple we know where the husband makes all the final decisions. The wife may object, but in the end, the husband makes all the decisions for the family.
> 
> I dislike the term toxic masculinity, but I couldn't argue against her definition. I did, however, suggest it was "toxic humanity", pointing out I've seen couples like that in reverse. She agreed, although we both agreed it was probably more common to see a man treat a woman like that...but not by much, IMHO. I guess I've seen toxic femininity almost as much as toxic masculinity.


I think the problem still for us in Australia etc is that the power and money structures are still vastly dominated by men (white, mostly - because they started the power structure here and have held on to it - had purple men started it, or polka-dotted women, then we'd have purple men or polka-dotted women dominating these structures...), and that this means many men in public life can get away with things most women would not. It's not that I think women should be able to act as badly as _some_ men do and be promoted for it etc, it's that I think no person, whatever gender, ethnic origin, etc, should be able to hog power like that, or resources, and act to the detriment of others.

Like many other people, I've been personally negatively affected by this in ways that were completely unethical, and the people (mostly men, a couple of women) in the power positions in various dirty scenarios over the decades have on the surface largely gotten away with it (I fought the worst cases officially, with some success, but limited consequences for the power abusers) - but they are of course their own karma - and they're not admirable human beings, though they may have lots of people who'd kiss their feet at the drop of a hat.

This is not to say that there aren't women who abuse power positions - there _totally_ are, and they probably do it at the same rate once they get up there. Power simply attracts a disproportional amount of egotists and sociopaths and people with no sense of community and love. Jesus was always going on about the Pharisees - case in point. I think those words about the Pharisees still apply so broadly everywhere I look today, where there are entrenched power structures. And I actually take comfort in these words - Jesus does some excellent rants! ;-)

Growing up in a toxic family where people treated each other with total disrespect, and there was all sorts of verbal, emotional and physical abuse to go with that fundamental disrespect, I can tell you that the basic toxicity I saw was equal in both my male and female parent. But, my father had more _overt_ power. He was the one who earnt all the money, and made all the major decisions, and insisted my mother stay at home "where she belonged" - and that she should be grateful to him that she didn't have to work - but then he denigrated her, and his children, for not having "real jobs" and not doing "important work" and puffed himself up as the true owner of everything, all the rest of us were just living off his largesse and were incompetent compared to him etc etc. He saw himself as greater-than, and the rest of the family as lesser-than.

And in family situations with those sorts of income imbalances, it's really hard for women to leave even if they want to. In Australia, a lot of women who leave domestic situations like that end up living in charity shelters, trying to find jobs after years out of the paid workforce, while juggling with often young children and little social support, and with the threat of violence and retribution hanging over their heads - about one woman is _killed_ every week by a current or former male partner, in our country (comparatively few men killed by female partners / exes, and that's where the toxic masculinity idea comes in - combination of testosterone and poor social programming).

The man from such a situation often complains that he has to sell the home and split the money, if it ends in divorce. But, he's in an established position and has so much more financial security, and so much more on his CV, than she does. His earning potential will almost always stay greater for the rest of his life compared to hers, if she was staying at home looking after the children and had a career break. His superannuation will be so much greater - that's a hard fact for all women in Australia now, but especially for women who stayed home to look after children etc. So women are more likely to end up in poverty in old age (and really at any age), than men, in our country.

In my particular toxic family of origin, the vitriol between my parents went both ways, and they abused me pretty equally as well. But, I've got friends where the vitriol was definitely largely one way - female friends, male friends. It can be any combination like that, really - it's all on a spectrum, as most things are.



> Who here would want to be married to someone whose principle of marriage was "Ask, Tell, DEMAND!" Yet that might be the most common advice on training. For safety issues, I accept it. Both horse and rider can die or be seriously crippled in some situation. Demand is appropriate then. But when demand is in the form, "_You'll trot in circles for 60 minutes or else! I'm working on my equitation, and pleasing me is your JOB!_" - how is that NOT toxic?


It _is_ toxic. But then, so is much human behaviour towards one another as well, leading to a lot of blindness and denial - and of course, many people see animals as lesser-than (like they saw / see women and children as lesser-than, or ethnic people as lesser-than, etc). After all, you've bought them, you legally own them, sort of like a slave really. But you know, we also bought and legally own this land, and though the principle of _owning_ land and animals has philosophical problems attached to it, and even more psychological fallout - _it's mine so I can do what I want and I don't have to care about anything except what I want _- to us, legal ownership of this land, and of our animals, means _stewardship_ of both - means acting in the best interests of both, sometimes to our own immediate detriment, but mostly actually, it's the healthiest thing for us as well, especially long-term, to care about others and not just to be this entitled, stunted creature of ego and greed and not giving two hoots, and _I-want, I-get_ - this emotional three-year-old. I think we're supposed to be in harmony with the earth and with other beings - call me a hippie if you like! ;-) But by that definition, Jesus, Buddha, Rumi and other wonderful thinkers and ethicists are hippies as well, so I'm in good company! 



> Horses have changed me, even starting at 50. They are such FEELING creatures that they have opened up, a little, my own awareness and willingness to have feelings. With "Quiet Persistence" and by rewarding any slightly successful try, Mia and Bandit have whittled away at my shell. Horses have made me a better person, but it works in reverse as well. The ability to get away with DEMAND, and others encouraging it, can damage the human soul. Like many "trials" in life, horses can refine you. Or you can destroy yourself. IIRC, @*SueC* , you once asked me if riders treated other people the way they treat their horses. I think the answer is yes. And I was fortunate enough to buy Mia. She refused to believe I could be mean or dominating to her. I found myself changing to meet her expectations of me. That opened doors.


That's really amazing! On the whole man-woman debate, I will say that I've always thought that the traditional socialisation of boys amputates a lot more of their basic _humanity_ than is the case for girls - especially when it comes to emotional expression, so a lot of men are really shut down emotionally, not through choice but because of the way they were socialised when they were little - by their families often, but also almost inevitably by the culture. Males are essentially told, "You can't have this human aspect and be a respected male! You can't cry, you can't hug other men except if your football team wins, etc etc." And that must be a really heavy burden to bear, to be conditioned to shut yourself off emotionally to "be a man"...

And wasn't Jesus a really nice example of how a male could indeed be fully human and own it, no matter what the rest of the world thought about it? Could cry, and be openly emotional in other ways than anger, and talk to women about important things even though that wasn't the custom, and be friends with whomever he pleased no matter whether they were the wrong gender/class/ethnic group/whatever else? That particular role modelling undid a lot of the damage that was done in my life by inappropriate male role modelling - and indeed female role modelling.

Also, I'd dread to think what life would have been like for me as a kid, if I'd not been _socialised_ by horses, and accepted by them, and able to work with them in healthy ways, with mutual enjoyment! 

Wooo, weighty topic, fruit trees to net... :rofl:


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## SueC

@*bsms* , if you didn't have to go for a run this time after reading what I have to say about _this_ fraught topic, then I have become a better communicator! ;-) Quite seriously, it was not the intention to provoke a negative reaction in a friend and fellow human being a while back when talking about this - I can be very blunt, and can benefit from working on my diplomacy and perhaps explaining my perspective in ways that are less likely to be misunderstood. So I'm sorry about that, and hopefully this was an improvement.

Also at the time I was a bit miffed with you because you kept talking about scientists saying these crazy things about animals, and while there _are_ scientists saying crazy things (and especially _were_ in the old-time behavioural sciences from decades ago, which still has a devoted public following long after being thrown out as bad science by their colleagues, and we have both seen that on HF), there are also a lot of scientists not doing that - and I've worked as a scientist, and taught science, and when there is perceived (whether or not intended) generalised lampooning of scientists, I get miffed on behalf of the ones trying to do the right thing - as you yourself, I think, get miffed at perceived (whether or not intended) overgeneralisations about white middle-aged males, for similar reasons. And I can understand how eventually that can light the fuse.

I think one big problem is that nobody has actually walked in anyone else's shoes, and that's why we should all listen to each other, as well as tell our own experiences as clearly as possible - in respectful, safe contexts only, of course - I'm not suggesting anyone listen to a drunken Neo-Nazi skinhead (male, female or other! ;-)) bearing down on them with a broken bottle! If that happens, run - or employ your martial arts skills etc.

Something about Tom Roberts: A really excellent horseman, but does that mean I agree with every last jot and tittle in his books? No, I don't. I think there are things that could be worded better, done better, things I'd never have done myself - but I agree with over 80% of what he says - and with approaching zero percent of what the outdated (because scientifically flawed) dominance model enthusiasts blare out all over the public (and private) spaces of this world, about animal behaviour and training.

And Tom Roberts wrote all of that when dominance models of animal behaviour were still in full swing and accepted as mainstream science. (Does this mean there aren't pecking orders? Well, there are pecking orders, but animal behaviour isn't nearly as simplistic as it was made out to be; and in non-captive natural groups, in natural environments, there is more cooperation than coercion, in social mammals... humans are _not_ the best example of social mammals (Bill at age 84 thinks they're the _worst_!)... For a good treatment of this topic in the context of horses, see Dr Marthe Kiley-Worthington's _Horse Watch - What It Is To Be Equine_ etc.)

It was because TR observed and thought things through independently, rather than swallow the established thinking of his time whole, that he was so ahead of his time. If he'd lived another hundred years, it would have been so interesting to see his revisions of the books he wrote. Noone who thinks and observes as a matter of course stays static.

And it's because he allowed me to stand on his shoulders as a horseperson, and because he taught me so much about horses and riding, that I can actually meaningfully critique his approach and find points that could be improved - living many decades after he died, and with a science degree and a pretty thorough overall education - compared to what he had. But without the perspective afforded from that borrowed lookout tower, I'd have had to work so much harder at everything, make so many more mistakes. And I bet you anything he'd have beaten me to it with revising his own ideas!


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## Hondo

Roman has been with me for a little over one year now. There are still certain things I do at times in certain ways that make his eyes widen and show fear. I can now sit down on the couch without him bolting off in fear that something bad is going to happen to him. Many things like that.

Handling a lot of animals at one time, or a classroom of 35 rambunctious students is one thing, but my two dogs and one horse are considered what I might call my "Significant Other Animals" with a much different relationship than that with members of the herd.

Hondo accidentally bit me once causing both pain and what should have had stitches. He clearly showed how bad he felt about it for close to two weeks. He is still more cautious when being fed that he used to be and that was two years ago. He remembers and he felt bad. I know it. He was not reprimanded nor the recipient of any anger although I did feel anger towards myself at the time.

To me and perhaps only to me, to hurt one of my significant other animals would consist of a failure on my part. And I'll be quick to say there have been failures to meet that standard.

This was so funny!

Quote: I've not yet met a three year old that could be steered with that precision. Or steered much at all.


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## bsms

I don't view pain as entirely bad. If a little kid was running towards traffic, I'd have no problem with using force to stop him. Even if the force involved pain. I have no problem with giving a young kid a swat on the butt. It is immediate, has an obvious connection to the thing that was wrong, is easily understood and doesn't require any hard feelings 10 seconds later. Like almost anything, it can be done badly. But because SOME do it badly doesn't mean it MUST be done badly. As kids get older, explanations can become possible. Consequences can be connected. But I'd much rather be around a 3 year old who accepts limits as a part of life than a 3 year old who was raised without them!

Done consistently, horses don't mind. I don't know how Cowboy would respond. He rarely does much wrong anyways. His ground manners are excellent - apart from wanting to eat anything green. Bandit & Mia both will accept any punishment I dish out, to include throwing rocks at them, and then stroll up to me 10 seconds later.

With Mia, something clicked between us immediately. She could get very scared of some people. But from the moment we met, she assumed I was there to do good things. Bandit? I've made it clear I don't like a number of things done to him. But his previous owner and their friends convinced Bandit that people do good things for horses. He arrived here believing people take care of your feet, make hurts go away, protect you, etc. It is one of the reasons I'm content with where Mia is now. Someone who convinces a horse that humans are wonderful is doing something right. He turned to Clinton Anderson videos to help him train Bandit in a gentler way than many of those around him. CA is NOT a gentle approach, IMHO. But Bandit assumes people are here to make things better for him - so the guy did something very good. Bandit and I have had some heated arguments mid-ride, but without resentment. On either side.

I've said my horses judge me by my intentions, not my actions. That isn't entirely true of Cowboy and Trooper. They obviously believe people can be cruel. But even they often respond based on what I'm trying to do rather than how I do it. Lilly, Mia and Bandit simply assume(d) I'm trying to do right by them. When I get mad, they assume I have a reason. Even if they aren't certain what the reason is.
-----------------------------​ From a thread I posted about Mia in 2014:

"_I pulled myself upright in time to see Mia fall flat on her side at a full gallop. She got up and galloped to the far side of the corral. I limped over again, and she started dancing around before I even got there, threatening to bolt. I was a bit perturbed by this point. "What Would Clinton Anderson Do?", I asked. Then I decided CA could go copulate. I picked up a rock about half again bigger than my fist, and chucked it at Mia. Caught her on her rump, and she took off again. I met her back at the point we had parted ways after I tried to shove the saddle upright, and she stopped next to me and hung her head. At least THAT was better! I would have asked, "What Would Parelli Do?", but I didn't have a carrot stick to shove up her nether regions.

So this time, I stood on the side where the nylon off-billet was. Nylon is slippery. I clipped the reins to the rope halter under her bridle (something I should have done earlier), and gently eased the nylon just off the tongue of the cinch. It wasn't easy, because the cinch was tight. When I finally got it loose, I stood back and let it drop.

Mia bolted east, but I was ready...I bolted north. When we both hit the end of the rein, she was spun around 180 facing the saddle on the ground. I rubbed her nose, told her it was OK, and put her in the corral..._

_...The saddle lost one saddle string, but otherwise showed no damage. I put all my stuff back to where I normally tack her up, then fetched her from the corral. She acted OK with the saddle pad going on her back. She was a little tense about the saddle going on, but not bad. Tightening the saddle was obviously harder on her nerves, so I tightened it one hole at a time and let her nibble on grass between times. When I got to the normal hole, I managed to tighten it one hole further...but that was all it was going unless I made a sacrifice to Thor to give me extra strength.

Since I thought it unsafe to try riding her alone, I led her for a walk around the block and then some...about a mile total. She was surprisingly calm at that point. She did a prancing trot a couple of times, but only momentarily...and Mia prancing every 5-10 minutes for a few steps is utter unremarkable. I think it goes with her AHA registration. They'll pull her papers if she doesn't.

When I took the saddle off, she stood there nonchalantly, a cigarette hanging from one corner of her mouth, doing her Bogart impersonation. I asked her if she knew how to whistle. She snorted instead. Betty Bacall she is not. I put her back in the corral. Betty Bacall probably didn't have a corral, so I guess it is all fair._"

*My first emergency dismount, from Mia...while at a full stop!*​ 
The big difference between Mia and Bandit is that if it happened with Bandit, and I was confident his back wasn't hurt, I'd saddle him back up and ride. I'm not claiming I handled things as well as a person could. Just that my horses can have a traumatic & dramatic moment with me and still assume I'm there to help.


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## bsms

Regardless of the root cause of WHY a horse does some things, aren't some expressions best rejected as unhealthy? When Bandit bucks, he usually has a reason. A couple of crow hops means "Got a problem, you need to pay attention" - and I don't mind. OTOH, in a previous life, he was known to throw people off if he could. Serious, 'you are coming off' type bucking.

Bucking at the wrong time could seriously hurt one or both of us. The first time he tried bucking with me, we were on a paved road. Someone thrown off a horse and on to a paved road, helmet or not, can be badly hurt. Frankly, I didn't CARE what the problem was (and that time, he just wanted to run along the road and I said no, so it was anger). What remained was that his form of expressing himself was dangerous. He needed to know we do NOT communicate that way.

A couple of crow hops, followed by standing still, says, "_I really have a problem, amigo!_" I don't have a problem with that. More severe or more sustained bucking means I become pretty aggressive myself - and with good cause, I believe. Bandit has long since dropped any serious bucking. I'm not too sure he's done any minor hops in the last year. That is fine with me. He has learned he can get my attention in ways we both prefer: "_This will profit you. This will profit you not._"

It is like a kid who slugs another kid. In most cases, I don't care why. If it wasn't self-defense, I'm not interested. It is a bad way to communicate - so stop it and find another!

Biting is another, both with little kids and horses. I often go out and find Bandit with bite marks. Sometimes it means we can't ride. Although Bandit will _threaten_ to bite, I'm not certain he has ever made contact with another horse. When he shared the corral with Trooper, only one horse ever had bite marks. Biting IS a common form of communication between horses. But I don't weigh 1,000 lbs and really don't want to find out what a horse's teeth can do to my face. Not interested in finishing my life without an ear because my horse felt a nip was a good way to communicate something and my ear was nearby!

I don't view any of this as dominance or a predator response. Horses apply the same actions, often magnified dozens of times, and horses are not predators. Another horse who even thought about biting Mia would have been confronted with The Mare From Hell. Cowboy isn't fully accepted in part because of Cowboy. He'll bite or kick just to get his own way. And the other horses do NOT accept it. Why should I?

I think humans should have a no tolerance approach to certain behaviors. If only because we may not own a horse forever, and the next owner may be willing to put down a vicious horse - as I would be for some types of behavior. Too many sweet, willing horses out there to spend years trying to turn around a horse who might kill or maim you deliberately.

No bolting. No biting. No serious bucking. Preferably no bucking at all. No rearing. No spinning madly and trying to run away. Those seem as basic to me as telling my grandson he will NOT bite his sister, no excuses!

PS: In return, I try very hard to figure out what a horse is trying to tell me by nonviolent means. "_This will profit you not_" works best when "_This will profit you_" is part of the package. "_There are a lot of ways of telling me something that I will pay close attention to. So learn to use them._"


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> Regardless of the root cause of WHY a horse does some things, aren't some expressions best rejected as unhealthy?


Yes, I agree.



bsms said:


> I think humans should have a no tolerance approach to certain behaviors. If only because we may not own a horse forever, and the next owner may be willing to put down a vicious horse - as I would be for some types of behavior. Too many sweet, willing horses out there to spend years trying to turn around a horse who might kill or maim you deliberately.
> 
> No bolting. No biting. No serious bucking. Preferably no bucking at all. No rearing. No spinning madly and trying to run away. Those seem as basic to me as telling my grandson he will NOT bite his sister, no excuses!


Again, I agree. However, playing the devil's advocate I must add "easier said than done." Yes, there are horses that will stop doing a behavior when corrected harshly. However, it can be very difficult with some horses to make a correction unpleasant enough for them to stop something completely on every occasion for the rest of time! In fact, I would suspect impossible?
An example is a horse like Hero who will pester horses in the field that flat out kick him and tell him his behavior is NOT ACCEPTABLE. Yet even when a horse kicks him and even injures him, he will often continue a behavior. So it is no wonder to me that sometimes horses like him (and Halla was like this) will not simply stop because you say something will not be tolerated. I can't physically injure the horse, and honestly if they will ignore actual physical injury, I believe you must convince them psychologically that the behavior is not worth doing. That can be very difficult sometimes...

Unfortunately, I think there are some horses that just need experienced owners, even if we can't own them forever for some reason. I've tried to line up people who could take my horses and find them homes with the right type of owner, if necessary, because of this.


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## bsms

gottatrot said:


> ...However, playing the devil's advocate I must add "easier said than done."...
> 
> An example is a horse like Hero who will pester horses in the field that flat out kick him and tell him his behavior is NOT ACCEPTABLE. Yet even when a horse kicks him and even injures him, he will often continue a behavior...


I agree. Bandit is very lippy. I don't think he means any harm. After all, I've seen no evidence he has ever actually BITTEN another horse, although they often bite him. But...I don't like it! And I think I have the right to tell Bandit I dislike it. Even REALLY dislike it.

A few weeks ago, I was leading Bandit and he lipped me close to my neck. I turned around and punched him in the side of his face (jaw), then chewed his rump out! Bandit obviously was shocked at how strongly I reacted and hasn't actually lipped me since. 

Although he wants to. I think he does it to get my attention: "_Hey, Bob! Did you see THAT! What do you think?_" And I doubt I'll ever convince him it is bad behavior. 

But I'm trying, and he IS less lippy than before. I think he knows I dislike it. When he is distracted, he forgets. And that may be part of why he is so often covered in bite marks. The other horses, like me, get irritated. And while I punched him the the side of his jaw with my fist, and yelled at him, I see zero sign it has affected the trust between us. I think it is because my behavior was not arbitrary. It isn't a case of my tolerating it sometimes and not at others. I'm very consistent. He knows I really dislike it. So he understands my response is a response and not an attack out of the blue.

And a couple of minutes after I punched him, he was rubbing his face next to me - which I allow although many tell me it is wrong. No hard feelings. No indication he believes I turned into a predator, which I think is a grossly overrated concept. I think horses fully understand the concept of boundaries. They may not understand WHY we dislike something, and they may not always remember to honor our dislike, but they don't RESENT us for physically rejecting some behavior. Not if we are consistent. Heck, Bandit rubbing his head on me may have been in part a way of saying he was sorry, and that he still wants to be pals. While my responding with lots of rubs told him we ARE pals, regardless. And really? Bandit and I are enough alike that we find it easy to understand each other. We both have tempers. We both sometimes act like jerks. And we don't hold it against each other. *We're too much alike for that!
*
My horses all - even Cowboy - seem to understand that sometimes I get upset or act out, and it doesn't mean we aren't pals. One of the things I like about horses is their acceptance of me. They don't hold grudges. Some might, with a bad owner. But they always seem to cut me some slack. I do the same in return. Unless I get lipped on the neck...:biggrin:


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## Alder

I finally got my nerve up to make a comment. I always enjoy your thoughtful posts bsms, and your knowledge of history.


Third horse, the little one who lets me ride her, tends to pin her ears and threaten to kick and bite, even when I'm feeding and grooming. I reprimand her sharply every time but her behaviour puzzles me because she has become fond of me. I wonder if she has mixed feelings of dominance/affection. Sometimes her ears go back and forward over and over when I stand beside her.



I also wanted to comment on Hondo's post;

'Hondo accidentally bit me once causing both pain and what should have had stitches. He clearly showed how bad he felt about it for close to two weeks. He is still more cautious when being fed that he used to be and that was two years ago. He remembers and he felt bad. I know it. He was not reprimanded nor the recipient of any anger although I did feel anger towards myself at the time.'


A couple of years ago second horse (who wasn't mine at the time) spun away from boss horse's teeth right into me and sent me flying. I staggered off to the other side of the barn and returned to her after I stopped hollering (totally my fault for being in that position). Second horse was standing, trembling all over, even her lips were quivering, and she couldn't look at me, even though I didn't yell at her, or near her. I was certain she was upset that she had hurt me, and makes me wonder if horses don't actually want to hurt us, even with the kicking and biting as above.


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## Knave

@Alder sometimes I think they have accidents, the same as us accidentally kicking a cat... I will still get after a horse most of the time. Although reading about Bandit I was thinking Bones can be a bit lippy and I don’t mind him at all.

Anyways, when I was little, like six maybe, there were two broodmares in a corral. One had a colt by her side, and the other was due anytime. I was trying to pet the colt, and he ran beside the wrong mare. She reached back to scold him, and she grabbed me by the neck and shook and threw me. My parents watched and said she meant to go after the colt and was very shamed. In any case, I hold a floating vertebrae in my neck which just touches my spinal cord as a reminder.


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## bsms

Here is a serious question: _Given that I've never known Bandit to actual bite another horse with his teeth, should I give him more leeway about being so darn mouthy?_ I'm certain I've never seen him do it in anger.


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## Knave

I don’t know the answer to that... Bones doesn’t get lippy like he’s going to bite me. He just always is mouthy. It feels different. If he ever came at me like he was going to bite I would make him think I was going to kill him. He’s super kindhearted though. He won’t even kick a cat climbing his tail. Oh he threatens and gives dirty looks, but he lacks any meanness. He would hurt a cow, but that is the only thing he’d consider actually hurting.


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## SueC

bsms said:


> I think humans should have a no tolerance approach to certain behaviors.


I quite agree - including with humans! ;-)

A classroom parallel. The high school discipline systems that worked best, in my experience, were the ones that said, "Here is a list of things for which there is *zero tolerance* in a class: Fighting, taking other people's things without permission, yelling, swearing, being rude to others, disrupting the class. Do that, and you're out immediately. (Out meant a much older / younger class and behaviour reflection paperwork to do that the teacher had to be happy with, before being allowed back in.) In this class people have the right to be treated with respect (students and teachers alike), and the responsibility to treat others with respect, and to get on with classwork."

No "three strikes and you're out" which wastes everyone's time and basically says it's OK to do something antisocial twice before there can be a consequence. Note this "out" policy was for the serious things listed, only. More minor things could be dealt with by time-owed, etc.

It's also really important that the main emphasis of this behaviour policy was actually getting on with positive things, behaving towards each other in a positive way (and teachers were, rightly, expected to model this to a T), having positive experiences, and generally giving time and energy to what was positive - instead of having it drained by what was negative. It was really excellent - a handful of schools I worked for had this - and those were the ones I worked for again and again, with pleasure. It was fair and constructive for everyone, and resulted in really good learning environments where people were happy and comfortable, and wonderful work and thinking could get done.

Now if only we could apply the same behaviour policy to the Australian parliament! :Angel:


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## SueC

...I think different people have different ideas about how touchy-feely they want to get with their horses. I personally encourage a lot of physical interacting with my horses - I scratch them, they nuzzle me, my sleeve is gently grabbed and then held while the horse (Sunsmart's specialty) looks sideways at me with this, "Ha ha, got you!" expression. :rofl: I play with them. And I don't get hurt, because they know they need to be careful - grab the sleeve, not the skin - don't be rough etc. _Both_ sides sort of ask permission to touch - they do, I do. When a horse comes in for a bear hug (Romeo and Chasseur, and actually also the donkeys like this), I just let them sit their heads against my chest while I put my arms up over their neck. It's fine if they want to rub their heads gently - if it's too much, I just step sideways, and the horse learns to adjust next time. I've never really had to slap anyone over this (although I will slap rumps etc with an open hand to make a point sometimes) - sometimes an "oy" or an elbow. And that's despite the fact that both Sunsmart and Julian were classed as aggressive biters when I took them over. Go figure.

With Sunsmart, as I related once, I used to shove a brush in his mouth playfully if he turned around with a "gaaah" at me when I was grooming him, when we were first getting to know each other, and now I've got a horse that picks things up as a game. I wrote about that here:

https://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/horse-turns-back-me-when-he-788919/page3/#post1970522651

When one horse is being mean to another, I've been known to "oy" them with my "teacher voice" and to throw a soft-plastic feed bucket at their rump - doesn't hurt, but a heck of a shock to the horse, and it thinks twice next time. I can walk between the lot of them when they're freely interacting, and they don't do anything silly. I can step between two horses getting grumpy with each other, and it stops. Their lead mare, whom they lost a year ago, used to do the same. She was very affectionate with them, and also very good at stopping the others from bickering.

Julian, when new, got swiped with a fly veil I happened to have in my hand when he turned his hindquarters at me and lifted a leg - again, short, dramatic voice-and-swipe, the horse jumped a mile, then came back with a, "Sorry, can we make it up" expression, and we did. I think a speedy, clear "no" response is far more effective than a harsh one - backed up with positive interactions. Always ending on a good note etc.


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## gottatrot

My rule is that if it bothers me, I try to stop the behavior. If I don't mind it, then I don't. Amore likes to rub her head on a person after her bridle comes off. I always allowed that for her. She's a small horse, does not smash you with her head although she presses against you firmly, and it was never a problem. 

I don't let Hero rub his head on me but he's a bigger horse, and he's still learning how to be still and patient when getting untacked. Often he is moving his head around when I am trying to undo his throatlatch or curb chain. Today I bopped him on the end of the nose each time he wouldn't hold his head still, and told him how good he was each time he held still for a few seconds as I worked. I think the main thing with horses is to be consistent. If you decide to let them rub their head or nuzzle you, then you can't punish them for doing it when you are in a different mood. Otherwise it doesn't seem fair.


----------



## bsms

Posted this on another thread:



bsms said:


> I just got a book yesterday: Know Better to Do Better: Mistakes I Made with Horses (So You Don't Have To) by Denny Emerson. I haven't had time to read it all. Skimmed thru parts and read a few chapters.
> 
> A consistent theme I'm seeing is to take smaller steps, and stay at those levels longer. That was one of my biggest mistakes with Mia, my spooky Arabian mare. I figured once she did A, she was ready to start work on B. Shortly before I swapped her for Bandit, I concluded I needed to go back a few levels and spend a lot more time getting her rock solid at each level. Even if it meant years.
> 
> Denny Emerson talks about this on a variety of issues. On conditioning, he believes you start at a walk. Literally. And he discusses walking at a confident pace for miles - just walking - as the foundation for endurance training. He talks about giving cues, and how he believes most of us get too aggressive too fast with our cues, which creates tension in the horse. He argues what I discovered in Mia & Bandit - that a horse can be both very obedient AND very tense inside. Same with a horse facing a new environment. Or a rider who has had a bad fall - and he has had two broken hips and a broken back. He says you come back from a serious injury like that by starting over on a horse who doesn't scare you, and taking as much time as you need to become COMFORTABLE at A before moving on to B.
> 
> And, he says, if D is as far as you get, then that is OK. A big theme seems to be to stop measuring ourselves or our horses against others, and work with who we are and who they are.
> 
> With both Mia and Bandit, I've too often tried to move forward on a foundation of sand. If I'm understanding the book correctly, he thinks I need to let my horse get really good - and comfortable - with A. Then look at trying 1/2 of B. Slow but steady.
> 
> Need to read more, but it ties in with this thread and I'm finding myself going, "_Yes! Yes! That is what I did and it didn't work for me either! Yes, that makes sense!_" It is the best $14 book I've read on horses, riding and teaching the horse. Oh - and he has a section on "Teaching vs Training".
> 
> I'm a nobody rider, BTW. Denny Emerson has the experience and achievements to be worth listening to.
> 
> "_He is the only equestrian to have won both an international gold medal in eventing and a Tevis Cup buckle in endurance. In 1972, Emerson was named United States Eventing Association's Rider of the Year. He was a member of the United States Three Day Eventing Team that won the gold medal at the 1974 Eventing World Championships....
> 
> ...In 2011 Emerson completed his 50th consecutive season as an entry in the Preliminary or Federation Equestre Internationale (FEI) CCI* level. That same year, however, Emerson broke his C1 vertebrae after falling during the cross country phase of an event at the Stoneleigh-Burnham School Horse Trials in late July. Emerson made a full recovery and, as of 2015, continues to regularly school horses and compete in both jumper and dressage shows._"
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denny_Emerson


To expand...much of what I've read so far would sound VERY familiar to folks like @*SueC* , @*gottatrot* , @*Hondo* , @*Knave* , @*knightrider* and many others reading journal threads.

Hondo had a thread a few years back on "Ask, Tell, Demand". Smilie supported the concept. Hondo disagreed, and I tried to be in the middle. If I'm reading right, Danny Emerson has concluded much the same as Hondo. Although he doesn't phrase it the same way, he argues the "Obey me" approach creates tension in the horse, and that tension creates resistance, and the resistance made Denny as a rider more tense, so he would take firmer control, and the result was a downward spiral. At 77, he believes far more patience is needed, that we need to teach our horses to feel utterly safe with us. And if that means we never jump as big a jump, or race as far, or ride at some level in a sport...so be it!

When he discusses working with a horse's fears, it reminded me of a video @*phantomhorse13* posted showing her working with her horse. Encouraging, supporting, but not dominating. And in discussing breeds, he gives due to the warmbloods, thoroughbreds, Arabians, etc that he has ridden - but admits his first love was and is Morgans!

I guess I see it as vindication. I've often heard that I haven't had enough experience to challenge the conventional wisdom on training. Haven't owned enough horses, ridden enough or won the competitions to argue for taking more time. Yet while neither Hondo nor I would likely agree with everything in the book, a lot of what he says reminds me of Hondo's writings. And my own. Along with the many journalists here who aren't comfortable with the "Body Control" or "Man Is God to Horse" approach.

After 70 years of riding, Denny Emerson is saying some of the things that Mia taught me. And Hondo taught Hondo. And that so many of you have discussed learning from your horses. It seems after a lifetime at a very high level of competitive achievement, he is echoing what many of us with 1,2, or 3 horses have learned, not from riding instructors, but from our horses!

I hope @*Hondo* isn't offended by this. I mention him because he reminds me of me in some ways, although perhaps more sensitive to his horse and more open to learning than I am. A quicker study than me. I'm pretty dull, as my horses could tell you. Thank God they are more patient with me than I am with them!

I also haven't read the book from cover to cover, yet. But the key ideas seem to be "_Smaller bites. More patience. Don't rush. Accept what your horse is offering. Let him feel good with where you are at before trying to do more. The horse isn't wrong, just misunderstood._"


> Here's how the two words, "He ought" and the three words, "He knows better" run counter to Jack Le Goff's advice on how to train horses:
> 
> Le Goff said, "*Boldness comes from confidence. Confidence comes from success. So it is the mission of the trainer to create lots of situations that as much as possible guarantee success.*"...
> 
> ...someone takes a horse out trail riding alone. The horse would be calmer and steadier if he had company, especially quiet company, but the rider says, "He ought to be able to handle this on his own." Or the horse moves around at the mounting block, and the rider says as she yanks him around, "He knows better." Or loading into a trailer. Or being quiet for the farrier. Or accepting being clipped.
> 
> *A horse does not "fake" being anxious in order to "get out of work" or because "he is being bad.*"...
> 
> ...Jack Le Goff's advice is to start by creating little successes, rather than to get into battles to "make him settle down". The only way you can make a horse be calm is by drugging him. You can longe or gallop to exhaustion, and he will be quiet, perhaps, but underneath the tiredness will still be nervous.
> 
> So what is so wrong with trail riding with a buddy at first, or doing tons of quiet transitions with a mild bit rather than by cranking him into a harsh bit, if it makes him calmer?...
> 
> ...But generally, "teaching him a lesson" should not be the normal "go-to" method if the goal is to build lasting confidence.
> 
> Or maybe Le Goff is the one who didn't "get" how to train horses? Maybe we are smarter horse people than Jack Le Goff? Sure. Dream on..."


[Note: "Jack Louis Joseph Marie Le Goff (April 8, 1931 in Alençon, Orne, France – July 24, 2009 in Saumur, Maine-et-Loire, France) was a French equestrian, best known as the coach of the American three-day eventing team from 1970 to 1984. He coached the team to multiple international championships, winning 18 international medals, including several in the Olympics. Le Goff is known for having a large impact on the American eventing world, and the era in which he coached has been called the golden era for American equestrianism." - Wiki]


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## egrogan

We can have a virtual bookclub meeting @bsms- it's on my bedside table right now, I'm a couple of chapters in. Can't beat beautiful Morgans in Vermont! :wink:


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## phantomhorse13

That book is actually on my list for Santa.. it's the first book in as long as I can remember from a BNT that I was interested in. I look forward to hearing everyone's experience with it and hope I will be joining the book club.


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## knightrider

Hear, hear! I couldn't agree more! And I also believe this applies to children. It used to break my heart when a teacher would say to a child, "You did it today, so I know you can do it." How many times have we been able to sing something, paint something, write something, carve something, do some acrobatic, and then the next time, no matter how hard we tried, we couldn't get it again. Just because a horse or a child gets it once, doesn't mean they've "got it."


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## bsms

Finally rode Bandit again. Briefly. A while back, I sprained my shoulder enough that I didn't trust using it if anything happened on horseback, I tried one ride and mounting up, pulling with my left hand on the mane...OWW! Then I hurt my back, caught what may have been flu, and in general had an unpleasant couple of weeks. My back is better, I'm mostly over the respiratory thing...but I re-injured my left shoulder again yesterday. Oh well. It is nice outside and I figured 30 minutes in the arena would be good for both of us.

And it was, but rougher than I expected. Someone at our neighbor's house decided, just as I got on Bandit, to rev up a dirt bike a bunch of times, then zoom past our little arena while popping wheelies. I say someone because the neighbor's wife grew up around horses. Doesn't ride any more, but she's talked to her kids about horses and the kids always seem very respectful around horses. They seem to understand that Bandit can be genuinely frightened, and what kind of weirdo would want to frighten a horse for no reason? So maybe it was a visitor.

Anyways, Bandit did some nice sideways moving. Actually turned away for a moment, but got him turned back ASAP. Turning away is generally a harmful reaction in the desert so I want to keep him focused on facing threats. The last couple of rides, whenever they were, I was trying to transition to the Momma Bear setting for stirrups. Worked well today, I'll say! Good to know he can zip sideways while using Momma Bear stirrups and have everything feel very solid!

Worked on posting after the dirt bike left. And eating. Me posting. Bandit eating. Each of us got some of what we wanted. Near the end, Bandit got very antsy again. I couldn't figure out why. I had taken one foot out of the stirrup in prep to dismount when he got agitated, so rode that with one stirrup. Got him briefly calm, then did a high speed dismount. About 30 seconds later, the dirt bike reappeared from between some houses, and zipped up and down the street gunning the engine and popping wheelies. Bandit was SOOO unhappy about a dirt bike rearing and screaming and trying to throw off a giant horsefly - which is what a lot of dirt bikers dress like! Couldn't blame Bandit, but it was probably just as well I wasn't armed. Not sure Mr Dirt Bike even knew we were there.

When Mr Dirt Bike went in to the house, I took Bandit back to the corral and fed the horses.

Not at all how I would like my first ride in a few weeks to go, for me or for Bandit. The only anger I felt was toward Mr Dirt Bike. Couldn't see a face, but it would be VERY unusual for one of the neighbor kids to act that way. Bandit was behaving well under the circumstances. From a horse's perspective, he bent over backwards trying to make things go well. If my shoulder is throbbing now...well, that isn't Bandit's fault. As far as I'm concerned, he behaved like a champ.

[Edit to add]: FWIW, at the Momma Bear setting, my security in the saddle really does seem to be rooted in my lower leg, not my "seat". Guess VS Littauer managed to teach me SOMETHING, even after his death! Maybe Santini's "perching" in the saddle works. Although I'm not supposed to be able to learn anything from reading a mere book...:evil:...but when a horse scoots sideways, having your security in your lower leg instead of your rump REALLY seems to work well!

Another quote:


> What I failed to realize back then was that by ramping up the intensity of my leg pressure, for example, while I did get the result of him moving away from it, I had obtained the result I wanted with a substantially negative byproduct. Yes, he moved off my kicking leg, but the sharpness of my kicks had made him more nervous and anxious. Now I had to deal with a more reactive horse, which meant very often I would feel the need for stronger rein contact to control the nervousness that I had actually created. As I used stronger rein contact, the horse got even more nervous, and the downward training spiral had begun. What I was doing was forcing the move away response rather than teaching the move away response...


In addition to "Ask, Tell, DEMAND", I can't count how often I've been told to sharpen the aids by then using "Ask, DEMAND BLAST IT". Maybe Mr Emerson is more accustomed to Thoroughbreds, Arabians and Morgans...but he seems to believe jumping from ask to insist is a good way to start a fight. I'll add another Tom Roberts story here. It remains one of my favorites, although I don't know if I have the patience:


> This horse was a confirmed jibber. He would not move when ridden alone. He just stood.
> 
> We were all eyes - and ears! How would the Captain fare with THIS horse?
> 
> [The next day] Promptly at 9 am, the Captain mounted and began to talk, as was usual. He was a most interesting lecturer, and he went on, and on. He made no attempt to move the horse, which was what we students were all waiting to see.
> 
> He talked and he talked. It was not until about 11:30 am again, that he suddenly seemed to realize the time. Again, the Captain drew his watch from his fob pocket and appeared to be most surprised to find it was so late.
> 
> "I'm sorry Gentlemen", he said , "I had no idea I had been speaking so long. Now what was the matter with this horse?"
> 
> "Try and get him to move", yelled several voices simultaneously.
> 
> To our utter astonishment and confusion, the horse cantered straight off down the School.
> 
> After a few minutes work, the Captain returned smiling..."Gentlemen, I have deceived you...Yesterday, when I mounted this horse, I immediately recognized I had to deal with a jibber [horse who would not go out alone]. I could feel he was determined not to move. The hour was late, and I knew I would need time. *ALWAYS ALLOW YOURSELF TIME*. Never fail to allow yourself plenty of time when about to start on a difficult horse - whatever the difficulties he presents.
> 
> "This morning at 9 o'clock, I mounted this horse with several hours ahead of me. The horse was determined not to be ridden forward. But I, too, was determined not to move.
> 
> At half-past 9, we were both still determined not to move. 10 o'clock came, and he was still determined not to move. So was I.
> 
> At 10:30, I could feel he was starting to become a little restive - but I was still determined not to move.
> 
> Now, at 11;30, we are BOTH ready to move."









​


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## Knave

So I was thinking about something that relates to what you are saying. First let me say 100% I agree with what your book said. It was something else you said I was thinking about though. You talked about the experience necessary to challenge the general practices.

So, I have been playing with a cart with three of the horses. I have zero experience, well, that is not completely true, but for practical purposes let us say zero experience with work horses. By work I mean the kind of work that takes a harness and some sort of attachment. Lol. 

I had started to look up some of the conventional training methods of cart horses. Then I was a bit discouraged and lay awake at night with ideas of how I would teach it. I tried something of my own thoughts and saw some success. I was telling my friend about this and she said “What fun you can have being creative and seeing what works for each different personality you are working with.” Then it kind of struck me how right what she said was. My horses don’t have to pull (unless it is on a rope lol). I don’t really care who I impress or don’t impress. So yes, I have a chance to be creative and do something just for fun. I had been ruining that by thinking things needed to be just so. 

Tradition works, and those tricks are there to help us. However, they do not have to stifle. A girl I know is an excellent trainer. She has been a professional trainer from the time she was a small child. She is trying something new now, learning about working-cow-horses.

I wish I could somehow make her understand that her own knowledge is what she needs to rely on. She knows horses. She has her own style and she is good. Her lack of confidence in her own ability is what is holding her back. Trying to listen to everyone except for herself is frustrating her and causing mistakes.

So, yes, try your own methods. Use tradition and tricks as you see fit, but trust in yourself too.

ETA: For fun today the poor future milk cow got to participate as well!


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## bsms

^^ They need "LUV" buttons!


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## bsms

A time for changes. Our youngest daughter has been seen on this thread often enough on top of Trooper, but the photo below was taken nearly two weeks ago - swearing in, which was followed by a flight to boot camp:








​ 
Letters from boot camp (US Air Force) indicate the MTIs - what the Air Force calls drill instructors - are "tough but fair". The letters received thus far all ask how Trooper is doing. It doesn't seem too long ago she was taking lessons on Lilly. Very green on very green, but a gentle and willing horse trying to work with a gentle and willing rider:








​ 
And then yesterday:










Son, DIL and the grandkids headed off to California. Last night was the first time in 31.5 years that we didn't have kids in the house (apart from a few days vacation). Lots of work to do on the house. We may take a year to get it fixed up and ready to sell. But it feels strange to both of us.

Last week, our little church (about 40 people) had a kids Christmas pageant. What most of us will remember is a young boy who, given a chance to hold the "Baby Jesus" (a doll, thankfully!), started choking Baby Jesus. Eventually his older brother (Joseph) stepped in and wrestled Baby Jesus away with all the grace of someone stealing a football. The pastor asked the mother afterward what she was going to do when her kids had kids, and the grandkids acted up. "*I'm going to hand them to their parents and tell them 'Payback time!*'" - a response that got cheers from the congregation. 

Yes, grandkids are very different from kids. You can hand them back, although my wife and I tend to just deal with whatever is going on. 

Back to horses: I've been sick enough often enough to do almost no riding. Temps have run 15 degrees colder than normal. Had snow a couple of nights ago. Had a few hours of sun yesterday. Went out and looked. All three horses were lying down, enjoying the warmth of the sun. Happily, after a night of freezing rain followed by snow, Cowboy had a dry coat in the morning. That means the other horses have FINALLY let him take shelter. "_Hey Little Fat Pony! Get over here and keep us warm!_" 

Combining horses and grandkids: I continue to be disturbed at how often people talk about being "The Alpha" and "demanding respect". One demands OBEDIENCE. One earns respect. The interchanging of "submission" and "respect" bothers me. We - well, most of us - would never do that with another human, and certainly not our kids or grandkids! Yet how often have I read something like 'Make him move his feet! He needs to show you respect!' A horse who shies away from something isn't disrespectful. He's just being a horse. Ride it out and HELP HIM, for goodness sake! The idea that horses plot out their reactions in an attempt to overthrow Man and take over the world is bizarre. If someone thinks that way, maybe they should as WHY their horse wants them to be out of power! < / rant >​


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## Knave

Congrats to the daughter!! Also, wow, I feel terrible for the mom at church. I am so glad that wasn’t me.


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## egrogan

As cliched as it is, I guess this new year really is about new beginnings for you all this year at @bsms. I hope the adventures of 2019 are exciting for you and your family!


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## bsms

When our oldest daughter was 5 or 6, my wife & I were in the Christmas Cantata. Halfway thru, she came rushing up the aisle, screaming, "I gotta pee! I gotta pee!" Another mother in the congregation grabbed her and took her to the restroom. A year earlier, I had confided to a mother that I was certain the folks in church were staring at my kids, wondering why I didn't control them. The mother of six started laughing, and told me, "_No, they are far to busy staring at MY 6 kids, wondering why I don't control them!_" Comparing notes, it seems most young parents feel that way. With some time, you learn no one is staring. Most of the older folks have been through it themselves!

In a small church, we all know each other and our kids. Things happen, and no one gets upset. Last Sunday, people were laughing. Hard. Our granddaughter was playing Mary. I was just glad she didn't attack the boy. And once she got her "baby" back, she just shrugged her shoulders & smiled...which may mean she will someday be a good mother!


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## Knave

It sounds like a nice church! I don’t have the greatest memory, but I want to say I have never seen a kid act up in our church. Not once that I can remember. Sometimes, maybe because of that, I have a really hard time thinking people aren’t staring. I seem to struggle in any social situation though with that feeling. Logically I know better, but I still am super nervous and uncomfortable.


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## SueC

If you feed kids lots of cough mixture, they have a better chance of sitting quietly in church. :Angel:

One of a series of free household hints in the selfless service of the greater community.


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## gottatrot

Great stories! I hope the big changes go well for everyone in your family, @bsms.

Good to hear Cowboy is getting into the shelter. I feel a little bad because during the day, there are two shelters open for Nala, Hero and Amore. Either shed has plenty of room for two or three horses, but whenever it rains Hero takes one entire shed and Amore takes the other, while Nala stands outside Amore's shelter looking in. All Amore would need to do is scoot over two inches but she never does and Nala won't shove her way in. At least they all have their own shed at night, but I feel like my horses are the "mean" ones when I come by and my horses' rain sheets are dry while Nala is soaking wet.


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## bsms

All three horses got soaked last night. Maybe they ran around outside the shelter when people used fireworks to celebrate the new year? Don't think horses approve of celebrating things when the celebration consists of explosions...

Still uncommonly cold here. In the military, I too often had to be outside in cold & wet for long hours. Learned that food is critical - one can stand a lot of cold and wet IF one has enough to eat! So when it was light enough for me not to fall, I gave them 150% of their hay pellets, which include some corn and molasses.

Not real deep, of course, and if the forecast is correct, it will melt off by this afternoon. We usually get snow every other year, and usually 3-4 times a year when we get it. Doesn't stick, but we really are not set up well for when we get it. The top picture is of Bandit and Cowboy eating out of their food buckets, which are NOT under the shelter because only two horses will get shelter at a time. Horses are rather mean to each other. We are discussing maybe staying here another year or two. If so, we need to rebuild the shelters. There is a third one, but it is farther away and the third horse rarely agrees to go stand under it alone...but in this case, all three horses managed to get completely soaked. And yes, Bandit being Bandit, he stopped eating to watch me moving around - while the other two were deep into their chow.








​ 






​


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## bsms

Forecast for today, dated at 0800 this morning: Very clear skies after 9 AM, high of 46. Reality? Haven't seen any blue all day, high this afternoon is 38, and it snowed from 1000-1300. The horses are having a miserable day. I'm inside reading a novel & listening to music. My day is better than theirs.


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## Knave

I like it! 

It was cold here today too. I was determined to ride though, and a piece of blue sky met us as we went out. Cash was funny. He’s sure he needs his oats in these temperatures. I led him to tighten up and then he was a bit stretched out when I went to step on back at the pan of oats. I said to him to look at me, I was getting on and he’d better pay attention and not fall down. 

Well, like any good two-year-old he listened just right and laid down when I put pressure into the stirrup. He wasn’t cinched tight either, he just struggles with thinking on too many things at once. Lol. I laughed, and husband was over throwing a tantrum on his horse about it. I guess I’d better not lead him back to the pan again. 

What a silly beast he is. Then I let him find joy as he kicked the snow into his face when we trotted along. He likes to try and catch it on his tongue (again, like every other two-year-old). He thought he might enjoy making a snow angel after a bit, but I had to tell him no more laying down. Lol. He had fun. I appreciated the moment of sunshine.


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## SueC

:rofl:, @Knave!


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## bsms

SueC said:


> If you feed kids lots of cough mixture, they have a better chance of sitting quietly in church. :Angel:...


When our two oldest kids were young, and we traveled back and forth between the US & England...cough syrup! Dimetapp & plenty of it. Too long an airplane flight to put up with screaming kids. Or fidgeting ones for the entire flight. Not sure it would work during a Kid's Christmas Pageant though: 

"_Oh look, the shepherds fell asleep in the manger with Baby Jesus!_"

"_Yeah? Well at least they didn't choke Baby Jesus and then pull on his head and feet fighting over him!_"​ 
In a small church, though, everyone gets to take turns watching the kids during 'children's church', so everyone knows the kids. The ones who are harder to handle, well, everyone knows. Everyone has tried. So mothers get some sympathy instead of condemnation.

Last night was supposed to be severe clear & cold. Instead, it was solid overcast and we got another 4 inches of snow. I decided I needed a cup of coffee before putting on my clothes - no birthday suits this time of year around here, @*SueC* - and trying to feed the horses. I looked out. Trooper and Cowboy seemed to be asleep. Bandit, of course, immediately noticed the light in the house. "_Bob, coming to feed us? Or *SPACE ALIENS*?_"

Bandit being Bandit, he watched intently, waiting to find out. Yesterday, after I got them their morning pellets to try to warm them up, Bandit became concerned about - something? - to the north. After a cold, wet night, he abandoned his food and spent at least 30 minutes staring intently to the north. The other horses may have eaten some of his pellets before he decided it was safe enough to eat. Oh well. I cannot control that.

But a horse who abandons his favorite food on a cold morning after a cold & wet night to stare for 30-40 minutes, watching, for...space aliens?...is obviously by nature a more alert, more cautious, more concerned horse than what most people seem to experience. He isn't cautious because I don't act confident enough, or because I'm not the Bold Leader! And BTW, horses have no respect for Bold Leaders! *To a horse, Bold Leader = Stupid Fool!* And to a horse like Bandit? It might be possible to whip him past something if you can ride out the fight, but that will NOT make Bandit respect you!

Like the kids in church, or in one's family, you have to deal with each kid based on who THEY are. You cannot expect them all to conform to MIGHTY PARENT. Like @*Knave* , you can accept a horse for who the horse is and give him chances to learn & grow. Or you can insist on unquestioning obedience. Someone who rides Bandit can either fight him a lot, or get used to a horse who keeps an open nose, open ears and open eyes, staying alert to potential threats. That is who he is. 24/7/365. Including when cold, wet & hungry. If you accept it, he will show you things in the natural world that we humans often miss. If you don't, you can never experience unity with Bandit.


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## bsms

At least the dogs are enjoying it!



















PS: Just looked out. Bandit and Trooper are playing Bitey Face. Then Trooper will spin and kick at Bandit with his heels, and then Bandit rears up high and strikes out with his front feet, and then they go back to Bitey Face. So I guess they are not suffering TOO much! :cheers:


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## bsms

OK, it is hard to tell...but my youngest daughter DID finish boot camp without being thrown out. Just got a text message (she wasn't allowed to touch her phone during boot camp) that she has landed in California...no time to come home and visit Trooper:








Family & Friends may have overdone the picture taking thing during the few days we could visit:








Her uniform does NOT fit well and the issued BCGs (Birth Control Glasses) kept sliding off her nose. I think she can, as of today, go back to wearing her normal glasses. My wife asked her how she handled pressure at boot camp. "_Well,_" she said, "_I crumple like a sheet of paper but recover quick..._"


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## SueC

BCGs! :rofl:

They don't look _that_ bad. (Say we, who now have reading glasses!)

But that's so funny. Like the German term "Liebestöter" (love killers) for some of the old-fashioned bloomer-type underpants. Although I think that epithet could be similarly applied to Y-fronts. Or budgie smugglers!


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## bsms

We had 7" of snow yesterday, measured with a ruler. That's the most we've had in the 14 years we've lived here. Only about 3" left this morning. It will be gone by this evening - supposed to hit 48 degrees and sunny today. But the wife & dogs put the arena to use this morning:

















Happily, this was a rare time where it started snowing without rain first. The horses had no objection to dry snow. They acted quite comfortable all day. Much better than when we get rain in the evening and it then freezes over night. The corrals will be mud pits today & tomorrow. Supposed to hit 71 degrees on Tuesday. By then, riding conditions ought to be good.


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## gottatrot

Great pics! Wow, that's a lot of snow!


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## phantomhorse13

71.. please ride some for me!

(No idea when the ice will clear as we keep getting 33 and rain, then plummeting temps, so I am having major withdrawal.)


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## phantomhorse13

71.. please ride some for me!

(No idea when the ice will clear as we keep getting 33 and rain, then plummeting temps, so I am having major withdrawal.)


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## bsms

SueC said:


> ...I've ridden with "normal" trail groups, and they spent most of their time walking their horses. Horses like endurance line Arabians and racing breeds mostly like to move, and prefer to spend most of their time trotting or faster. ...


https://www.horseforum.com/member-j...ys-other-people-479466/page78/#post1970688815

Mia came from racing lines, and Bandit certainly spent a few years racing cross country. Both prefer to walk fast, but neither show(ed) a burning desire to trot all the time. It would be interesting to know...is it me? Is it how rocky and uneven the ground is? Is it the feed?

Our weather has been crazy. We have a ton of weeds that have grown up. So much so that I finally bought a weedwhacker and have been spending 45 minutes a day trying to chop them down. And I've never seen these plants before! Lived here 14 years and never seen a single one before, and now they are growing 2-2.5 feet tall everywhere. Mr Round-up & the battery powered weedwhacker & I have been getting to know each other. Possibly the regular snow we've gotten, with regular rain in between.

The thing is, I've been forced to feed them mostly "complete feed" pellets. Any hay just gets pulled out of the buckets and trampled in the mud. Then they try to eat it out of the mud, which gets a lot of dirt into their gut. So they sometimes have gone a week or more with 3 meals a day of pelleted feed.

And they are looking GOOD. Their hooves are good. Their coats are good. The hay I've been able to buy the last few months has truly sucked. The farrier said others are telling him the same thing - they just cannot find any hay that they horses don't hate. But on pellets...Bandit has gained weight. He's certainly not FAT, but when I rode him the other day, for the first time in over a month, he felt a lot thicker. Almost like a normal horse.

There is no such thing as grazing or turnout for most horses here. Like 90% of the rest of horses in southern Arizona, they live on dry lots (wet ones this winter) and eat 100% hauled-in food. Hay quality is spotty, at best. The complete feeds folks will add minerals or corn or whatever to make sure certain minerals and fats, etc are present. I've taken Bandit & Trooper off their biotin supplement and they show no signs of needing it.



bsms said:


> I took Bandit out alone in the desert today. Due to a lot of things, I doubt I've ridden him 4 times since the beginning of December. As we headed away from home, into the desert, he was doing very well. When I turned him around toward home, a bunch of wind gusts hit us. Don't know if it was the wind, if he heard Trooper squealing, or if he just wanted to get home fast. But he started dancing around, tossing his head, twisting, prancing and very full of himself. I got him briefly stopped, did a high speed dismount...and started to lead him back into the desert. He didn't like that at all, and while he didn't bite me, he made it clear (I believe) that he would if I didn't back down.
> 
> I went ballistic. Got in his face and marched him backwards, fast, ready to slug him if he tried to bite. Bandit quickly realized he had opened a full can of Whoop Azz Chili. Had be been one of those horses who didn't think a human was potentially dangerous, he might have tried to kill me. Instead, he backed up at high speed and made it clear he had reconsidered his position!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There was a spot near by where ATVs had done donuts in the desert, so I led him around and around and around, in the desert, until he started to calm down. Then led him home.
> 
> On the way home, he nuzzled my arm. NOT a biting motion. World of difference. More like, "_Hey, we can be friends, still, can't we?_" And I said yes and rubbed his face......


A combination of him acting high-strung and me being out of riding shape. I've ridden 3-4 times since 1 Dec, so going out solo with him may have been too much to ask. He's been stuck in the corral for months. He would have had some excess energy or built up tension regardless of feed, I think.

I'd guess 75% of the horses' meals for the last few months have been pelleted feed. And all 3 are looking very healthy. For now, I plan to feed them pelleted hay (the complete feed) for breakfast and lunch, and hay for dinner only. Arguably, a steady diet of all Bermuda hay or all Alfalfa hay is as unnatural as a diet of complete feed. My own "diet" is pretty unnatural too, as is eating 3 meals a day versus the "whatever you can, whenever you can" approach that most animals are forced to take. I'm tempted to try them on 100% pelleted feed. I know the arguments about time in the tummy, etc. But I also have spent 10+ years struggling to find decent hay.

I've also ordered a new set of riding boots for Bandit. I sent Renegade pictures of his feet and they recommended the same, standard style but one size larger. BTW, when I got Bandit, he was in shoes that were 4.5 inches across...:evil:








They should arrive tomorrow. [Just checked. MAYBE today!] As the rain should. Then a dry day, then a couple days of rain again. I'm tired of rain and mud.


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## carshon

what a beautiful hoof! Once our deep freeze ends we will also be dealing with mud. Ready for warmer weather but not the mud.


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## SueC

bsms said:


> https://www.horseforum.com/member-j...ys-other-people-479466/page78/#post1970688815
> 
> Mia came from racing lines, and Bandit certainly spent a few years racing cross country. Both prefer to walk fast, but neither show(ed) a burning desire to trot all the time. It would be interesting to know...is it me? Is it how rocky and uneven the ground is? Is it the feed?


First of all, our horses here don't have a burning desire to trot _all the time_, they just have a desire to have a good solid run, with their mates in the paddock or with their monkeys. As they get fitter, that desire increases.

I don't think it's you, if you mean as a rider. I was a novice rider when I started with the French Trotter mare, and she was like that. She didn't do anything impolite, but she'd let you know she would like a good run. So had the German Trotter they had at the riding school where I learnt - he was known as a "hot" horse amongst the clientele, so some liked to avoid him, and some of us hoped he'd be allocated to us. His name was Ali! He was very different from the Warmbloods.

Once my Arabian mare got fit, it'd be "snort, snort, snort" if we were walking and she wanted to pick up pace. I've noticed that our horses here do the same sort of snorting at each other when they're about to run off together - it's a "let's go" snort.

Even hot horses won't want to pick up speed on terrain that is uncomfortable for their feet, unless they are really amped. Possibly it's partly that. Possibly it's lack of cardiovascular fitness. Just thinking out loud - all the Trotters I've ridden, including Ali and the French mare, were off-track, and had therefore had fitness training from the go-get. My Arabian mare was lunged a lot in sand at the trot and canter from the time she was a yearling, so also got reasonably fit before she was ridden. (When she was hand-walked, we did a lot of running intervals too - that was a good way for _me_ to get fit!) She did also, from the time she was about two, start to prefer trotting to walking on the lunge. The STBs show the same inclination pretty early on as well. Athletes are a combination of genes and environment to become it though.

Whenever I've been at peak fitness, I've been the same. Flat walking is boring then, so I head for the mountains - I'm a lousy runner, but if there weren't any mountains on hand, I'd sprint intervals on the beach. It was just a need to move, and to push the boundaries. When I lose fitness, I become more fond of walking on flat ground. Because I don't want to turn into a blimp or lose muscle tone, I then have to _make_ myself overcome a sort of inertia to get to that need to move again.

Possibly the "hot" horses get more addicted to the vigorous-exercise endorphins. ;-) But I do think there are differences apparent in the paddock already when horses like that are young, before they start to work, compared with show breeds, WBs etc. It's an interesting topic to think about.

Sunsmart needs a good warm-up before he becomes inclined to trot. He's quite happy to sleepwalk for ten minutes on most days before the snorting starts. About twenty minutes in, he starts to really look for races with the dog. He's very sensible like that - my Arabian mare wanted to trot pretty much at the outset.

Also, there's a world of difference between horses exercising off mostly forage or hay, and horses exercising off hard feed - except during the spring flush here, when they get very goey on the pasture alone because on a rising nutritional plane. That's when I have to exercise Sunsmart a whole lot, or put him on pasture restrictions, so he doesn't blimp out. But I do think that when horses work hard, they need extra energy through hard feed to be able to sustain that work. You couldn't put a Trotter through its pre-race fitness programme without giving it concentrate feeds like oats, canola, copra etc, and either good pasture and/or high-quality hay, preferably good meadow hay with a good clover content. They need extra carbohydrate, and they need extra protein, plus enough vitamins, minerals, essential fatty acids, antioxidants etc, just like human athletes - otherwise they will wilt, and get worn out and tired and frustrated. They need to have energy to spare to work hard.

To give you an idea, young STBs starting their jogwork would typically get two hard feeds a day - morning and evening - with about 2L of oats or equivalent each, plus extra protein as canola or crushed legumes or lucerne hay (alfalfa) or high-clover meadow hay. As they build up to pacework, their oats or equivalent are increased incrementally. Horses doing interval training and/or actually racing are getting around 3-3.5L of oats or equivalent twice daily, sometimes more, depending on the horse. The maximum ends up at around 8L a day for a horse who needs it; beyond that level, there would be problems with digestion, colic, metabolism etc - as there would be if horses fed like that didn't work hard, and consistently.

In the German riding school, horses were getting around 2L of oats and/or cube feeds twice daily to sustain their long hours of ridden work. This is about the same people were feeding their riding horses on serious work days. As the quality of the pasture and tree fodder here in Redmond is very good, I do not feed that much concentrate to Sunsmart - he gets a baseline of 1L oats and a cup of canola a day, plus pre-work feeds of 1L oats per hour he's going to be working at moderate to strenuous intensity. In the spring flush, we cut out the baseline grain, and feed their mineral mix to them in mostly chaff. (The mineral mix is necessary here due to soil deficiencies.)

A lot of recreational riders in Australia are bamboozled by these amounts of hard feed, but then, a lot of their horses don't work hard enough to need it, not if their job is mostly walking or slow trotting, with the occasional faster trot and canter, unless they do it all day, and few do. Forage and/or hay suffices for that level of work; those horses are doing less than they would be in a roaming wild herd, which often covers in excess of 30km daily, at slow to moderate paces, and a proportion of that just walking around grazing.

Hope that information helps you with your question!


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## SueC

bsms said:


> Our weather has been crazy. We have a ton of weeds that have grown up. So much so that I finally bought a weedwhacker and have been spending 45 minutes a day trying to chop them down. And I've never seen these plants before! Lived here 14 years and never seen a single one before, and now they are growing 2-2.5 feet tall everywhere.


...could they be young triffids? ;-)


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## bsms

Thanks for the comments, @SueC. I'll reply on your thread.


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## bsms

Heavy rain two days ago. Drizzle yesterday combined with heavy winds (30-40) all day. Cool this morning, but sunny and the wind is gone. Thought about going for a ride. Looked outside the bathroom window...and decided to let the horses relax after two very unpleasant days:








You can see the mini-pond that forms on the right. During summer thunderstorms, I want to SLOW the rain from running off. During 2 day rains, that doesn't work out so well. BTW - Cowboy can't be seen from the bathroom window, but he is sprawled out near the other two. :ZZZ:

They've eaten nothing but pellets the last couple of days. Between the wind & rain, feeding hay is a fool's game. 75% gets blown around and then trampled in the mud. My guess is that when I do ride Bandit, he'll be a bit bouncy. Or opinionated. Or both.


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## bsms

Well...it looks like Bandit has died:








Maybe I can change his name to Phoenix?


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## phantomhorse13

bsms said:


> Maybe I can change his name to Phoenix?


Or maybe Nessie, since he's closer to your pond than to anything that resembles ashes. :mrgreen:


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## gottatrot

Someone I work with told me that she didn't know horses lay down flat like that. About a year or so ago, she said she saw a horse in a field laying down, so she stopped at the farmhouse and reported it to the owner, who got a good laugh at her. 

I've had to feed a lot of complete feed when I was somewhere with very poor hay. Many of them can give a horse balanced nutrition. I wouldn't do it here, since the horses are on so much sand and need the long stems to pass it through their system. We typically have really great hay available. Our typical orchard grass hay looks like this:








And our timothy looks like this:









When I had to feed my horses complete feed, the hay looked more like this:


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## bsms

IIRC, there is some timothy available. At $25-30/90 lb bale. Bermuda & Alfalfa are both running around $18-19/90 lb bale, which is bad enough. I'm getting ready to transition them to Bermuda hay for the summer. I know they will look at it as if to say, "_But where is the Apple Pie? The ice cream?_" But I'm certain the long grass is good for them. I'm also now pretty well convinced it lacks a lot of stuff that helps keep them healthy. So we'll try Breakfast & Lunch of pelleted hay (with minerals and vitamins added), and Dinner of Bermuda grass hay. Maybe add a mineral salt lick, too.

As with everything else in the horse & riding world, I'll experiment and hope none of us die from getting things too far wrong.

Oh...and Bandit HAS been resurrected! It's a miracle! :angel2:


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## SueC

Yikes! That's so expensive! :shock: Have you had a drought in the US, or something? The standard square bales here of meadow or oaten hay are currently retailing at $10-$12 a pop, which is actually an expensive way to buy hay, so many people buy round bales these days, and a 5-6ft round bale of either hay is around $70.

It's a nice sign that you're actually seeing improvements in your horses' condition on your current feed regime. I've never heard of hay cubes over here, but wonder if perhaps that's what they were feeding at the German riding school when they gave them these enormous pellets with bigger diameters than pencils, in their bucket feed. In Germany, they also fed meadow and oaten hays. Meadow is multi-species, so I prefer it!  A good meadow hay almost smells like a nice herbal tea mix here. We occasionally buy a bale of meadow hay off our neighbours if mid-winter is miserable - the pasture can be very wet and gutless and lacking in fibre then. Our tree fodder mostly replaces hay though, it's always there.


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## bsms

Arizona, almost by definition, is in perpetual drought. Much of our hay is trucked in from California. Some is grown locally, but not enough to feed all the horses. I've never bought hay for less than $12/bale (assuming 90-100 lb bales). It usually runs $15-$20. I've paid as high as $25. The 80 lb sacks of complete feed are usually a dollar less. Good thing my wife & I don't smoke, drink or chew - or gamble, eat out, or like long vacations! 

It would be cheaper to feed them nothing but the pellets, but I also think they need to spend time chewing and seeking their food. The nice thing about bermuda hay, IF THE WIND ISN'T BLOWING, is that it scatters around the corral and they can spend hours finding and picking up the long blades/stems of grass.

Today? The wind is howling as I type. Winds are supposed to be 20-25 mph steady with gusts over 35...for the next 36 hours. So this may be another stretch where their primary sustenance will come from pellets. We've tried slow feed nets. The horses just pull the hay out, let it drop, and then try to feed on it!

Alfalfa hay is OK for as long as it stays in the 80 gallon feed buckets. Once out, the little leaves get mixed with the dirt and increase the chance of sand colic. Unlike the Bermuda hay, the horses can't pick up the little leaves without picking up dirt with them. On a nice summer day, I can toss flakes of Bermuda on the ground (or piles when it refuses to flake). It takes them hours to clean the corral. That is as close as most southern Arizona horses get to grazing.

Unfortunately, on a day like today, the wind can clean the corral in 10 minutes.
-----------------------------------------
I sometimes forget how atypical my life with horses is when compared to most of the riding world. It is common, here, to have a few horses on a dry lot corral, feeding Bermuda or alfalfa hay and trail riding primarily at a walk. The closer you get to a city, the more likely it is that horses will be kept in stables and ridden largely in arenas.

What we do with horses is driven by our environment. People around here just don't run their horses across the countryside. It would chew up the horses and spit them out. The smaller the town, the more likely you are to see some teens strolling on their horses down a street, and the less likely you are to find English riding or any organized competition much above the backyard level.

We are still looking at options for moving. This year's cold winter has taught my wife she might not WANT to live in the northern half of the state. Chino Valley, just north of Prescott, is 20 degrees colder right now. I think I could deal with it but my wife needs to decide to what extent she wants trees over warm temperature. I would be miserable without mountains and lots of public land. We're not in Tucson, but Tucson has grown so much that it is impacting our lives here. I don't see how this population growth can be sustained.

My guess is we'll end up renting a small house, putting the horses in a stable, and then get our current home up for sale. After that, we'll decide. In the meantime, we need to take some day trips to various small towns in eastern/central Arizona.


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> ...We are still looking at options for moving. This year's cold winter has taught my wife she might not WANT to live in the northern half of the state. Chino Valley, just north of Prescott, is 20 degrees colder right now. I think I could deal with it but my wife needs to decide to what extent she wants trees over warm temperature. I would be miserable without mountains and lots of public land. We're not in Tucson, but Tucson has grown so much that it is impacting our lives here. I don't see how this population growth can be sustained.
> 
> My guess is we'll end up renting a small house, putting the horses in a stable, and then get our current home up for sale. After that, we'll decide. In the meantime, we need to take some day trips to various small towns in eastern/central Arizona.


Your hay prices are nearly identical to Oregon. 

We're in a very similar situation in regards to moving. It's difficult to make a decision because of the pros and cons of weather versus the environment we like, etc. We're experiencing the same "city creep" from Portland. That combined with the amount of people moving up from California has changed things around here quite a bit in the last ten years. 

Things we've taken for granted for the past thirty years are going away. You can't go to the beach here anymore and be alone. There's a steady stream of cars along the highway even in the winter now. Wintertime used to be when you could depend on a nice break from people. So we want to move somewhere that's back in time a bit when it comes to population and progress. We're looking down the coast because we're not ready to leave the ocean and face what we consider harsher weather elsewhere.


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## bsms

My niece lives in Portland. My sister has visited Portland every year for at least 30 years. Originally, she loved visiting. She says Portland has changed dramatically. Not for the better. My niece sometimes gets to clean human poop off the sidewalk in front of her home. My niece still likes Portland. I guess she is politically in tune with the city. My sister used to adore Portland and considered moving there. No longer. She considers the neighborhood her daughter lives in as unfit for human living. I haven't been there in 30 years myself. Nor do I want to go there, now.

I grew up in Tucson. 40 years ago, my BIL's brother bought 4 acres near the Tucson Mtns. They lived in a camper shell for 3 years (yuck!) while building their home themselves. At 70, he isn't too likely to pack up and start all over. But it takes 45 minutes of driving in heavy traffic now to reach I-10. He's in a small patch of homes with acreage surrounded by miles of subdivisions, supermarkets & stoplights.

When I first started jogging 45 years ago, I jogged on dirt paths that now have 3 lanes of traffic, each direction. I remember how we worried about having enough water for Tucson in the mid-70s. Now? When will the bubble burst? This is a DESERT! At what point will the insulated lives of folks in cities have to give way to physical fact? We like our neighborhood. I still think it is one of the nicest spots within 50 miles for someone who isn't rich. But the area around it is changing, quickly, and we don't want to be trapped here 10 years from now. For a family with kids in school, tied to work in the city, this is a great home. But not for us.

A frustrating fact is the horses make it harder. Not something one generally finds discussed on a horse forum, but it is much easier to find a house on 1-3 acres than a house with acreage where you can keep horses. Keeping horses at home means thinking about things like mud, and what happens when you have several horses restricted to a relatively small area. And then, where to ride them? Right now, I have places to ride that are a 5 minute walk from me. That is kind of rare. It could also change, here, next year. The state land near me could be sold to a developer. And much of where I ride is actually private land owned by a very wealthy guy with land all over the west. Land he hopes to eventually build on. For all I know, my favorite riding place could start having homes and roads built next week. Or not for 30 years.

If my wife was an avid rider, it would be a no brainer. But while she enjoys having horses around - and was the one who pushed to get them in the first place - she shows little interest in riding. So there is a lot to balance. A lot of judgment calls. And a lot of soul searching, trying to figure out which way we want to head for the next 10-20 years. Where we are at is not a good match for where we want to be 10 years from now. But finding better? And if we find better, will it be overrun with people 10-15 years from now?



> "Arizona added new residents in the past year at a faster pace than all but three other states...New figures last week from the Census Bureau show Arizona's population as of July 1 -- the point at which the government measures -- at 7,171,646. That's up 1.7 percent.
> 
> Only Nevada, Idaho and Utah did better. [*Better? What the heck is good about it? Argghhhhh!!!!*]
> 
> What's more amazing is that Arizona was No. 4 in population growth on a pure numeric basis with its 122,770 new residents. That's no small feat given that Arizona is only the 14th largest state in the nation.
> 
> In fact, the states that added more residents -- Texas, Florida and California -- all are much larger."
> 
> https://www.paysonroundup.com/busin...cle_f76b36ec-a9bb-53f4-9550-5a6b48ef098c.html


In 1970, Arizona's population was 1.8 million. 1980, 2.7 million. 1990, 3.7 million. 2000, 5 million.

Now over 7 million, and continuing to grow. And in the 70s (1.8 million), we worried about having enough water...

PS: one of the things I need to evaluate is what sort of rider I want to be. I've never been an arena rider. Not by choice. Not with an arena that is 120 feet long max, and under 80 feet wide. But....if I had 5+ acres of land to use as an arena, where a horse could gallop without immediately needing to turn around....hmmmm...


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## bsms

Looks like another 70,000 people are likely to start living at one of the towns (Benson, population 5,000) on my list to consider. Guess that removes it from my list...

https://www.myheraldreview.com/news...cle_d114b04e-e9a6-11e8-842b-970b0b460a78.html

I am politically conservative, but also enough of a conservationist to object to the growth at any cost that dominates Arizona politics. Is it too much to ask that projects show the water is available BEFORE they start building?



> TUCSON, Ariz.— Conservation groups filed a lawsuit today challenging the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers’ approval of a permit that allows a huge master-planned sprawl development project near Benson, Ariz., to proceed. The Villages at Vigneto would transform 12,167 acres of largely undeveloped habitat into 28,000 residences, 3 million square feet of commercial space, four golf courses, fountains, lakes and a resort.
> 
> The development would rely solely on groundwater, draining the San Pedro River and harming millions of migratory birds, including threatened and endangered species. Yet the Corps refused to analyze these staggering impacts, confining its analysis to a small fraction of the development....
> 
> ...*The proposed development would depend solely on groundwater to satisfy the water needs of approximately 70,000 people*. That would dramatically increase demand on groundwater resources from approximately 800 acre-feet per year to a projected 8,427 acre-feet per year.
> 
> This magnitude of pumping would deplete surface flows along the San Pedro River and at St. David Cienega, a groundwater-fed marsh within the San Pedro Riparian National Conservation Area...
> 
> https://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news/press_releases/2019/villages-at-vigneto-01-31-2019.php


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## SueC

What you've both been describing is very like what has happened here in Western Australia over the last 35 years as well. When we arrived in 1982, Perth had under a million inhabitants and quite clean air. Now it's like an aspiring Los Angeles. Endless suburbia, freeways bumper to bumper, smog most days, nowhere you can't hear or smell cars and they're driving 24/7. I'm glad I don't have to live there. Sadder is that the coastal strip to Bunbury about 180km south of Perth has all turned into strip suburbia and traffic, where it used to be forests and farms between the major settlements. The most productive dairy farms from Bunbury to Margaret River further south were bought and eaten up by developers, and now their rich soils only produce 5 acre lawns with no actual herbivores grazing, just people on ride-on mowers, and dairy foods are increasingly trucked in across the long long Nullarbor, from Victoria. It's such madness.

When I was a teenager, Dunsborough was a little fishing village south of Bunbury, famous for its bakery. People went there to surf and swim, and it was very small and friendly. There were campgrounds and caravan parks, and school camps. Now it's unrecognisable, swallowed up by suburbia and chain malls, and there are expensive resort hotels all around. It's not for normal people anymore, it's for the jet set; increasingly that's how it's gone here in WA.

When my family moved out to their farm in Lake Clifton in 1983, the road to it was unsealed and we couldn't have a normal car, and maybe two vehicles passed on the road near the farm in a day. The road got sealed by the late 80s, but there still wasn't much traffic until the 90s, when the coastal strip west of us got subdivided and clusters of suburbia moved into what was previously woodlands. Just over ten years ago, a four-lane freeway was built 50m east of my parents' farm to connect Perth and Bunbury, and it's nonstop traffic now. When we first came to Lake Clifton, all you could hear was birds in the daytime and frogs in the night. Now you can't hear what's left of the birds and frogs because of the nonstop traffic noise.

Brett and I love Tasmania, and went on walking holidays there a number of times before we bought this farm in 2010. The bottom third of the island is wilderness which is untouched by humans. The rest of it is large tracts of forest side-by-side with pretty little farms, on a smaller scale than on the mainland and well looked after. The two major cities are gorgeous and liveable and I've lived and worked in both, in my 30s. Each of them is smaller than Bunbury over here. They're still on a human scale, and due to a poor economy and separation from the mainland, the historic buildings are preserved and there are no skyscrapers - unlike everywhere else in Australia.

This is Hobart:










The South Coast where we live is still nice, although not for lack of people trying to change it. It's mostly isolation from Perth and the weather that's saved this part of the world so far (it seems to rain specifically on public holiday weekends, so visitors from Perth are often dissuaded from buying a place down here, and stay on the sunny west coast). One of the reasons we bought this little farm is that the terrain precludes anyone from running a freeway past it in our lifetimes, plus it's off the direct routes between larger settlements. Fingers crossed...

Good luck to you and @gottatrot location hunting. Impoverished islands still seem quite promising throughout the world. But basically, the paddock is full to the brim.


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## phantomhorse13

How wildly hay prices vary always amazes me. @gottatrot I would have expected your cost to be a bit less, since the hay isn't shipped so far. In Florida, we are paying $42-45 per 95ish pound bale of timothy or orchard grass (what is referred to as a "3 string bale" there). Here at home, we do "small squares" of timothy/orchard grass which are 40-45 pounds and depending on the cutting, the cost is $5-7/bale.. so double that to be equivalent to a 3 string bale. But the hay is produced locally, so there is no real shipping cost involved.


I wish everyone luck on finding their new happy places. When I got together with my DH, I was living in suburban-heading-for-urban Philly and it was a total no-brainer to move where I am now! While suburbia is encroaching in some places, the majority of the land around us is all in farm preservation, so will hopefully stay farmland as long as I am around. I like not being able to see any of the neighbors..


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## SueC

@bsms, I think our square bales are smaller than yours. They're around 95 to 115cm long (depending on how the machine is set), 35cm thick, and 45cm wide. They're held by two strings. That's the bale type we built our house out of (oaten straw; the barley straw we ordered got rained on by a freak storm before baling), and those wouldn't weigh more than 20-30kg mostly, I think - we were throwing them around quite easily when building. Sounds like what we have is more like what @phantomhorse13 is describing as the smaller square bale. I've not seen three-string bales here - the other sorts of bales are the 5-6ft round bales, or the massive square bales that hold equivalent amounts of fodder as the round bales, and need to be moved around with machinery.

If you buy direct from farmers, you can get good meadow or oaten hay for under $10/bale here most seasons - delivered by local farmers, but you need to get a truckload to make it worthwhile for them.

At the Australian rate of population growth, hay is going to get dearer and dearer as agricultural land is swallowed up for housing developments, golf courses, shopping malls etc. Sigh. Poor wilderness etc. Anyone looking forward to being a sardine in a tin? And whatever happened to this...?


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## bsms

When I visited Utah, I saw small bales for sale. They ran around 50 lbs. The ones around here all run 90-100 lbs. Or the really big ones that weigh a ton. If & when we move, we may build a hay storage shed that will let us buy enough hay for 3-6 months at a time. I get nervous about it here since a shed like that would also make a great place for rattlesnakes. We've had a number of 4-5+ foot ones on our property. Maybe every third year I'll kill a big one near the house. One was coiled up next to the house, under the water tap! I'm not big on killing snakes, but poisonous ones likely to kill my dogs or kids (or me) die.

If we were going to stay, we'd build another horse shelter and a shed anyways. Since we don't want to keep 5 bedrooms for the two of us...

A bit of good news. I made the switch to Bermuda two days ago & the horses actually seemed happy to eat it. They turned their noses up at it the last time I switched from Alfalfa to Bermuda. Yesterday was another all-pellet day, with winds hitting 40 mph. But it is calm enough this morning to feed Bermuda & they all stood at their buckets, ready to eat some nice long grass again! :thumbsup:


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## bsms

bsms said:


> ...Bandit has largely been cooped up in the corral for the last 3-4 months. When I finally rode him a couple days ago, he was on high alert, in the arena, before I mounted. So...I got on and we spent 40 minutes riding. By the end, he was calmer and more willing...but we did some sideways trotting and a few "_OMG! Did you see THAT!_" moves first. After 40 minutes, he was still a long way from fully relaxed, but he wasn't the only one who hadn't done much riding for the last 3-4 months and I was pooped!
> 
> But I didn't yell at him. Didn't punish him. He was a bundle of nerves and we exercised some of the nerves out. Softness in a horse doesn't come from head position or their bodies. Softness comes from their minds. You can punish them into submission, but you can't punish them into one-ness with you.
> 
> A horse who wants to do your will is an incredibly soft horse. I won't pretend I experience it a lot. Bandit is half-Arabian, half-Mustang and ALL opinion! ...


When I brought Bandit out a few days ago, it was very obvious it was NOT a good day to try a solo ride in the desert! He was wound up and tense, staring wide-eyed even while grooming him. So I knew before mounting that it wouldn't be a relaxing ride. By the end of 40 minutes, my inner thighs were burning from staying on. But it wasn't anything to get upset over. He had been cooped up and was feeling the stress - cabin fever, as we used to call it when I lived in places that snowed a lot.

Got a short ride in today. Had a lot going on today & knew it would have to be a quick ride. But Bandit started off today at about the 38 minute mark of the previous ride. Only got in 20 minutes, but he was relaxed at the end of the ride. Almost mellow.

Mia was like that too. You could get upset and get in a fight with her, or...you could rub her face at the end of a tough ride and tell her you knew she tried. And if you did the latter, odds were the next ride would be a good one. I think horses sometimes need to know we are there for the long haul. I used the Poppa Bear stirrup setting for both rides. It allows my leg to hang ALL the way down around him. Prevents me from bracing and gives some grip all along the length of my leg.

The new hoof boots had him a little out of sorts the other day. He stumbled a few times at a canter. Didn't today, although we did a number of short walk to canter and canter to walk transitions. But he needs more arena time in his boots before I try him and them out in the desert.

On another forum, I saw a thread where they discussed using half-halts to rebalance their horse. If I think things are getting too out of hand, we'll stop and start over. But as long as things aren't going to be catastrophic, I prefer to let my horse figure out how to balance himself - be it new hoof boots or transitions. Or just calming down. The ride a couple days ago included a lot of work crossing back and forth between the sides of our little arena, which is only 70-80 feet across at the maximum. That kept his speed down and the turns kept him working and focusing more. Naturally. But I wasn't going to try to hold him together. That is HIS job. And he did fine today. No stumbles and carried his weight further back in the canters, getting his front up more and getting his front feet further out in front. He's going to get it. He needs me to give him opportunities to learn, not control.


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## SueC

bsms said:


> He's going to get it. He needs me to give him opportunities to learn, not control.


This would look great in cross-stitch on the barn wall.

Or in neon in Times Square!


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## bsms

*Why I may retire my Dr Cook's Bitless Bridle*​
Had an interesting ride today. Bandit was fairly calm and we started working in the arena with his hoof boots on. The new ones are a little looser and he seems to struggle sometimes with their feel. I've also been impressed by how much deeper the grooves are along the frog of his front feet, which I attribute to better nutrition via the amount of pelleted hay he is getting.

So I took the boots off and we did some more work. At one point, he got excited and started to gallop instead of canter in our little arena. I wasn't sure he could hack the turn if he didn't slow, so I pulled pretty hard on the reins. Until he DID go back to a canter. But he then got very...fussy? Upset? Started to buck at the canter, which meant I was using a fair bit of pressure to keep his head up. But it got real bouncy - as a bucking canter tends to be!

Slowed him & tried again. Each canter turned into a bucking canter. After 5-6 rounds of that, he settled some and gave a couple nice canters. Well...adequate canters. At that point, I noticed the side straps that run along his face were bowed out. That is what happens when one pulls hard on the reins with the Dr Cook's. As it tightens, the side straps go loose and bow outward. But I had slack in the reins!

So I stopped Bandit, dismounted, and manually loosened the straps attached to the reins, allowing the side straps to go back to normal.

We did some more riding. He was quite nervous at a fast trot or canter but started to relax. After another 10 minutes or so, I noticed the poll strap was tight against his ears and not a couple inches behind them like normal. So I scratched Bandit's neck, leaned forward and pulled the poll strap back into the normal spot. We did another 5 minutes and Bandit was pretty well behaved. Then I stopped. I was pooped! As I undid his tack, Bandit seemed almost apologetic. He also wanted face rubs. I held my forearm vertical and let him rub against it. He rubbed the area behind his left ear long and hard - very abnormal. Then he put his head next to my chest and sighed.

As I put him back in his corral, I had no idea what the problem had been. But looking back...

I think when I pulled hard to slow him quickly, two things happened that have never happened to me with the Dr Cook's before. I've read that the Dr Cook's doesn't give a good release. I've never had an issue with it, but then, I rarely use much force on the reins. I think when I pulled hard to say "This is NOT the time or place to gallop!", the Dr Cook's tightened. As in "*Clamped down and locked*". Then, while I was "giving release" and bumping, Bandit wasn't GETTING the release. I was moving the reins but Bandit was feeling the locked down bitless bridle - and a very frustrated horse he was! Yet with good reason!

Second, when that happened, I think the poll strap was pulled up against his ears. The left one in particular, which is probably painful. That is why his defensiveness dropped down a few notches when I finally pulled the poll strap back into place. The combination of pulling against his ears, and then locking down and giving no release, made for an angry horse. Yet on MY end, I was giving slack to the reins and had no idea it has pulled up against his ears. So I was pretty frustrated too!

When I came into the house, my wife asked me about my ride. I explained Bandit had tried bucking at a canter several times. She told me, "You should have stopped him, and then made him back up a bunch! Back, back, BACK! That would have taught him a lesson!"

Sigh. Not only from a family member, but a lecture on how to punish a horse (which Bandit did NOT deserve) from someone who hasn't ridden in the last year. Certainly not since last summer. And who has never ridden Bandit, nor ever ridden a horse anything like Bandit! But my 10 years with horses has taught me a few things, so I didn't start cussing and asking just what in the heck made her an expert! She was probably repeating what someone had told her.

I really like the Dr Cook's. If Bandit gets scared, it is a good option. It is probably a bad option for any horse who might try to run off, or a horse who tries getting his head down to buck. With more complete nutrition, Bandit is filling out nicely. He has more energy and his feet look MUCH better. I would give the Dr Cook's a small advantage over a snaffle (or curb) for when Bandit gets nervous. But if Bandit decides to put up a fight, as he might if he wants to run down an open trail, then the Dr Cook's - based on today's ride - may be a bad option. I plan to ride him tomorrow in his old O-ring, single joint snaffle. POSSIBLY his solid shank curb. I will say this for a bit: any decent bit will give release when I give it!

I've never had a problem with the release part of the Dr Cook's before. Had this happened in the desert, with uneven footing and cactus all around, it would have been scary. Wasn't exactly a total joy today...:frown:


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## gottatrot

Very interesting. When I first tried a Dr. Cook's on Amore, she was so claustrophobic that she couldn't take the squeezing pressure even if it was released right away, so I quickly decided it wouldn't work for her. 
I rode her in this variation of the crossunder, which worked much better. Essentially it mostly works like a sidepull.








I've thought sometimes that if a person had trouble with a Dr. Cook's squeezing too much or not releasing, they could fix the underside at a certain length with a couple of zip ties in a similar fashion.


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## bsms

I don't know if that would work or not. I was very happy with how the Dr Cook worked - before today. It was a somewhat unusual situation for me. Never used the Dr Cook's to try to get a horse to slow NOW. For now, I'll go back to his snaffle and rethink things. I expect him to be more of a handful based on his current health. Which is good in some ways, but I need to be aware of the potential problem of too much energy and feet that aren't feeling tender. He might be a somewhat different horse on the trails.


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## tinyliny

I have gone back to riding in a bit. I put it on over the rope halter. I had an episode with two off-leash dogs scaring X and making him do a rapid 180 and an attempt to run home, which was harder to stop in the halter . . . . . I've gone back to the bit.


I ride on the buckle 90% of the time, and when I lift the rein, it means something. I really like the finesse I can achieve with a bit and reins. 



I totally respect how you noticed what was going on with your horse. I am sure he forgives you.


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## whisperbaby22

Standard bridle design works for a reason. That being said, every horse head is different, and I have been making my own bridles for years. In a perfect world, every horse would have a custom bit and bridle. 

Add in that all these design changes make money and you have a lot of different ideas floating around. What works for me is to make the bridle to fit the horse, then have 2 or more bits to fool around with.


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## bsms

Rode Bandit this morning. As I expected, there were no hard feelings from yesterday. This picture was at end of ride but shows the gear I decided on:








Decided to go back to using his boots. Although his feet look much healthier & deeper soled, boots would protect him from rocks in the desert regardless. That influenced my choice of bit. I was using the curb as my third choice because when Bandit's feet get tender, he stumbles. And a stumble with a curb bit will hurt his mouth more than a stumble in a snaffle. But if I can get him good in boots, then the curb offers some good things. The mouthpiece is solid, so it won't sag. That allows me to place it lower in his mouth and stretches his lips less. The clean design also means he can eat and there is nothing for grass to snag on. Just smooth, round metal. No joints. No nothing. Slides right by.

The book says a solid shank curb bit cannot be used with direct reining. Bandit hasn't read the books and shows little interest in what they say. My own belief is that horses learn the totality of how a bit feels and do not break it down into individual subcomponents: this part pulls this way, but that part goes there, and each means something different. No, I think they just go "_Here is the totality of how it feels and I have been TAUGHT that totality means X, not Y._" So one of my goals was to try using the solid shank curb with two hands and direct reining.

It took a few minutes to convince Bandit nothing today would squeeze his face. He was a little tense but that went away almost immediately and he spent the rest of the ride relaxed. We did a lot of trotting and cantering. He did fine in his boots today, so maybe there was something else going on yesterday? He had no hesitation, no stumbles. Canters were smooth and fluid. Trots were more elevated than normal. I noticed that I two point - a very LOW two point position, but two point none the less - at a trot. That is my standard trotting position. When I then sit at a trot, Bandit assumes I want to canter. And today, that was pretty much my cue to canter. Trot, sit, canter. But his canters were all very nice.

Direct reining worked fine. I haven't ridden him in a bit very often lately. Heck, haven't ridden at all much lately! His direct reining was about 90% of what I would have expected from him in a snaffle. Of course, that was direct reining the curb using contact only as needed. The "releases" were all very good. His canters were done with slack and most stops were done with a verbal "Easy". With a little more practice, I think Bandit will direct rein in the solid curb the same as he would with a snaffle. But he rode good today. Very good.

Trooper hasn't been ridden since my daughter left for boot camp. I need to start riding him but he doesn't like me. So...today I haltered him when done with Bandit, took him to the arena, cleaned a ton of hair off him, cleaned his feet, and let him hand graze for a while. My secret goal is to get him ready so my wife & I can try riding in the arena with both Bandit and Trooper. She lacks confidence in her riding - with some reason - and needs practice. Trooper was always very well mannered in the arena with Mia & he gets along very well with Bandit. And I think Bandit would enjoy the mental challenge of having another horse with him in the arena....


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## SueC

bsms said:


> If we were going to stay, we'd build another horse shelter and a shed anyways. Since we don't want to keep 5 bedrooms for the two of us...


Three horses, four spare bedrooms = no problem, plus one guest room. ;-) Just a few house modifications, which are easier if the bedrooms are at ground level... Arrange external access, and a bit of bedding... Probably remove the furniture, unless you can offer king-sized futons to your steeds...


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## bsms

I spent a couple days at a church retreat for guys. From a religious viewpoint, it was pretty poor. Nice countryside, though. Near the east side of Arizona at 5,000' MSL, where it looks like this:








I checked out the closest small town (30+ miles away). About 3,000 people. Looked really good to me, but the wife's idea of a small town is 30,000. There is a town with 5,000 people about halfway between here and there, and she MIGHT consider it. But as a compromise, a town somewhere not too far from Prescott & associated cities (over 120,000) might be our best bet. She would be willing to handle being 30 miles away from a city, but really doesn't seem thrilled by 100 miles away. And if we don't figure out a compromise, I guess we'll stay here.

Way I figure it, with the way Arizona keeps growing, a town of 3,000 might BE a town of 30,000 in 10 years...or a ghost town when the water runs out. :evil:

I suspect @gottatrot that you are kind of like me. If I look at a home on a website, I find myself yelling, "_I don't CARE what the bedrooms or the bathrooms look like! Show me the OUTSIDE!_" 

"_It's small, quiet, and yet has all the main amenities a person would need. Beautiful lakes, beaches and forest._" - gottatrot. OK, not many lakes and beaches near here! But access to public land, places where you can breathe the wind and it doesn't smell like your neighbor's farts, places where you can HEAR a slight breeze - is that too much to ask? 








The brighter it is, the less I want to live there. We are too close to Tucson for my comfort - or my wife's. But she has this odd idea that the picture ought to have SOME sign of light for the place to be acceptable. Me? I figure Amazon delivers & I can take classes online...:thumbsup:


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## gottatrot

I agree, it's the surrounding environment that is important for me when choosing a place to live. That's why where we live is feeling less homey by the day, because the beautiful environment is getting clogged with people. The town we are looking at has 9,000 people, and is mostly a retirement community. There is some tourism in the summer, but not a lot to attract younger people to live there along with not many big businesses that can provide employment. 
Eugene is only an hour away, but a city of 170,000 has a lot less creep than the whole Portland metro area of 2.4 million. That's just over an hour away from where we live now, and it's affecting us more and more.
I hope you can find a place to live with less people. Any town might grow a lot in the next ten years, it's true. We're trying to find one that has been static awhile, and does not seem to be encouraging growth. At least we might get ten years with less people.


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## SueC

I always have conniptions when I hear someone official say, "We need to double our agricultural output in the next 50 years blah blah blah and we need to do it by being more sustainable." Well, there's a nice oxymoron for you. Why is it always, "We need to double agricultural output!" instead of, "We need to stop breeding above replacement rate!" ...well, I do know. It's because of the money being made from it, which is short-term, but that doesn't seem to worry many people - and the people making public policy are statistically more likely to make money from property speculation, etc etc - and of course, that's why they're there...

You can't use the word "sustainable" when sustainable carrying capacity has already been exceeded. It's a joke, and a bad one at that. It's as if they think that by using the word, you can make it so. The less sustainable we get, the higher the frequency of the use of the word in public discourse, and not as a query, but as window dressing...

I suppose those people think we can just jet off to another habitable, but uninhabited, planet and start the madness all over again...instead of behaving like an intelligent and responsible species. I refer you as an example to the intelligent and responsible species on Malacandra, in CS Lewis' "Out Of The Silent Planet" - that book gets more pertinent by the day...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out_of_the_Silent_Planet

Good luck with the hunt, both of you.


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## knightrider

I've been reading about population decline recently and find it very interesting. Of course, it will be beyond my lifetime, but here is a well written article by a reliable source.

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/futu...-there-are-too-few-young-people-in-the-world/


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## Knave

When I was going to college @knightrider, I did an opinion paper on this theory. I read a ton of information on both sides, but it used specifical population decreases/increases, to show how one specific social/religious group was going to take over, yet neglected the fact that other specific religious groups also have more children.

It was really interesting. It said that for a culture to continue at a stable rate, each couple must have something like 2.7 children on average. There were cultures it said would eventually become extinct. Portuguese people, for example, have an average of .7 children per couple. (At least during the time frame I researched the paper.)


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## SueC

Yeah, @knightrider, that's always been the argument of the economists, but it's a situation that's created by a booming population in the first place. Most older people I know are quite capable of looking after themselves - it's in the 80s and onwards that many people start having problems - and there's dementia, of course - but other than that, I never saw that as a sound argument for continuing to grow the human population beyond replacement. The problems that this has been creating for the planet and for other species have far outweighed this social problem, which we surely could solve by other ways than encouraging people to produce masses of babies. Sooner or later, this is a social problem we will simply have to solve - regardless of the size of the population at that point - and I'd rather we solved that before we get deeper into this mess of species extinctions and ecosystems collapse. After all, we are, when it comes down to it, more dependent on the health of this planet than we are on our current economic system - although a lot of people don't see that.

The thing that always dismayed me the most is that much of the population boom is actually the result of a lack of reliable and affordable contraception for women in places like Africa. I remember reading the World Health Organisation report on that as part of our _Population, Resources, Environment_ course at university - showing that while rural African women they interviewed said they'd ideally have 3-4 kids in their family, they often had 4-8 - simply because they didn't have access to appropriate contraception. For cultural reasons, condoms didn't work out very well for these women, and hormonal contraceptives were difficult to obtain, and often too expensive for the really poor people, as was tubal ligation etc, and the men generally didn't want to have vasectomies because it somehow insulted their manhood. So, the women kept having children they found it harder and harder to support, and to keep alive. That's a tragedy all around. As is the fact that in Africa in particular, various Catholics in high office like to interfere with the free availability and legality of contraception. Did you know that in Ireland, contraception only became legal in 1980? It's a prime example of how religious people in power can hold sway over an entire population that don't even necessarily go to their church. I've always found it deeply offensive that people have imposed their beliefs on others not even of their brand of religion in that manner, just because they could.

But now to a more fun topic, brought on by the upcoming Australian election. How many politicians does it take to milk a cow? 24! Four to hold onto the teats, twenty to lift the cow up and down.


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## bsms

Arizona's population problem, like Utah's, has nothing to do with births outnumbering deaths. It comes from people wanting to move here. I understand that. But I'm a grumpy old man and I don't like the changes that go with growth. That, and I can't help notice I'm living in a DESERT! 

We also seem to get a lot of people who move here and then want to make "here" be just like where they came from. I've had it up to the eyeballs with people from New York or California moving here and telling me how Arizona needs to be more like those places. If they liked "there" so darn much, why'd they move "here"?!!!!!!

At the risk of getting political...I'll take the Mexicans coming across our border if we can, in exchange, get the NYers and Californians to leave. I want a wall, but not necessarily along our SOUTHERN border! :rofl:

FWIW: I'm a Baptist Libertarian. I'm not asking anyone to live IAW my beliefs. In return, I insist on having the right to disagree with theirs. That is a pretty traditional Baptist belief, probably arising from the tendency of medieval governments to give "anabaptists" a "third baptism" - drowning! However, if you get too many Baptists in one place, they tend to tell me I can't buy Lambrusco on a Sunday... I rarely drink, but I don't like being told I cannot. 

"_Don't drink only water. You ought to drink a little wine for the sake of your stomach because you are sick so often._" - 1 Timothy 5:23 Works for me. :winetime:


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> We also seem to get a lot of people who move here and then want to make "here" be just like where they came from. I've had it up to the eyeballs with people from New York or California moving here and telling me how Arizona needs to be more like those places. If they liked "there" so darn much, why'd they move "here"?!!!!!!


Exactly. According to many who have moved up here, the rules and regulations in California make it too difficult to live there. Someone recently told me a tree fell down on their property, so they cut it in pieces to move it. This "timber removal" was seen by officials who then mandated a $7,000 inspection of the property for endangered beetles. 

So they move up here, and when my horse stops to poop on the beach, they ask me what I'm going to do with that? In Oregon there are no private beaches, they belong to everyone, and although irresponsible dog owners create issues, the dogs run loose on the beach, the horses poop there along with the elk and the eagles and the storms erase it all from time to time. We live here because it is wild. 
I've read that in California it can be difficult to find place to take your dog for a walk on the beach. In Oregon, dogs are citizens and have the right to run on all the beaches.


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## SueC

bsms said:


> Arizona's population problem, like Utah's, has nothing to do with births outnumbering deaths. It comes from people wanting to move here. I understand that. But I'm a grumpy old man and I don't like the changes that go with growth. That, and I can't help notice I'm living in a DESERT!


Maybe not locally, but globally! ;-) Australia, like America, gets most of its sprawl from migration. I'm a migrant - albeit I was dragged here before I was of legal age. The global population explosion puts pressure on migration though - people moving from regions of resource scarcity to better places. Most migrants will start in cities. Some city people eventually get sick of the crush and yearn for a quiet rural life - and if too many people do that, the rural areas become suburbia pretty soon too. Catch-22.

As you're a grumpy old man, you might enjoy this:






We do. Bwahahaha. We've been enjoying this since our mid-30s. Got to get the homework done early! :rofl: And aaah, the bit at the start where they all answer the question, "Is your body a temple?" :rofl:

Very amusing rest of post there! :rofl: Let me think, who do I want to get rid of? The litterers, I think, will be amongst the first. They can all go and live in the landfill. :evil:

I think the right to disagree and still be treated with respect is important! I don't like monocultures anyway, they're so... sterile...


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## knightrider

From SueC


> I'm a migrant - albeit I was dragged here before I was of legal age.


Ah Ha! You're a Dreamer! The folks in the US government want to force you to go back to your country of origin. Oh, no, wait. You're white, you can stay. Only the brown Dreamers have to go.:frown_color:


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## SueC

Yeah, I know, @knightrider. It's so dumb! :shock:

Although mind you, my blending in with the "dominant group" only works till I open my mouth, and because I don't have the Aussie accent, that's when people have been known to say, "What nationality are you?" even though I've lived here for 37 years. And I say (correctly), "Australian!" and then the drongos in the population say, "No, but what nationality are you _really_?" Interesting fact: I've only ever had that from white people. No brown person has ever queried my nationality or given me a hard time about being a migrant. And that includes, no native Aboriginal Australian has ever given me a hard time about being here. Heck, there's enough white people giving _them_ a hard time about what they're doing in Australia, even though they've been here for 60,000+ years, which is twice the length of time people have inhabited Europe.

It's mostly just stupidity, I think, and entitlement. And to be fair, I landed in a hotspot of it when we first migrated, and I went to school in a small town with a disproportionate amount of stupid and entitled people. It was shocking! I was 12, and being asked if I liked Jews, or if I preferred to roast them. mg: I was Nazi-saluted, and had property snatched off me, and was hit and kicked. They weren't all like that, but a lot of them were. What surprised me the most is that some of the worst offenders were the Italian-Australian kids whose parents were migrants. I'd _never_ had trouble from Italians living in Italy as a kid, even though I wasn't born in Italy and didn't speak much Italian. But over here, whew. After a while, I'd counter their "Heil Hitler" with, "So, what about Mussolini?" and they'd go, "Who's that har har!" - they really were so ignorant - and I'd tell them to go ask their parents that evening, but they never got it. Also, I wondered how something that had happened more than three decades before I was born and that had killed some of the best friends of my maternal grandmother could possibly be connected to me... And when they said, "Why don't you go back where you came from?" I used to say, "That's so funny, you don't look very black to me, so what are _you_ doing here?"

There were some decent kids, but that was Neanderthal central, honestly. For my senior high school years I went to the city and had absolutely no trouble at all with my new classmates - a large part of that, I think, is that the Neanderthals didn't stay on for the senior years back then, as they'd not scored high enough in their exams, so they were mercifully removed from the environment.

But at university, some of that happened again. "Don't let the _foreigner_ near the equipment!" and other choice stuff like that, only from a minority though. But in Western Australia, from Neanderthal adults in the street, all of my life, "Where do you come from?" and I'd tell them to go to a library and get out the book by that name which would answer all their questions (now my standard reply):










You get tired of it. One really nice thing about Sydney is that it never, ever happened there, for the nearly three years I was there - it was a really friendly place. I think WA is the Wild West in many ways. A lot of people are driven here by money - like in the mining booms recently past. I think Neanderthalism and wanting to make easy money kind of correlate a bit.

Anyway, I've basically always felt more international and more "human" than any particular nationality or football club or whatever. I think that's a good thing. I really enjoy people of different cultures and beliefs; I just don't particularly enjoy white Neanderthals who ask me, "But what nationality are you _really_?"

...and that's my experience as a "white" migrant to Australia - I can only imagine what people who _look_ different from the Neanderthals go through... and I've heard many awful stories...

Love thy neighbour as thyself, etc. But the definition of neighbour often gets argued about to exclude people not in a particular club...


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## bsms

Well...I suspect SueC immigrated legally. As did my brown wife. If I entered Australia illegally, they might deport me. Speaking of Australia:

"_Various policy measures have been implemented with the aim of increasing the likelihood that new migrants will be able to gain employment and achieve economic independence, thus reducing the risk of migrants becoming a drain on the public purse. For example, the introduction of a nominated skills list, tightening of the English language requirement and more stringent rules concerning the recognition of overseas qualifications in order to meet eligibility requirements for general skilled migration were some of the policy measures introduced in 1990s....Additionally, the last decade has seen a shift in the balance of the Migration Program away from the family stream in favour of the skilled stream. In 1996–97 skilled migration made up 47 per cent of the Migration Program—by 2008–09 that figure had increased to 67 per cent._

https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parlia...rary/pubs/BN/1011/AustMigration#_Toc274128797

Unlike 75% of Dreamers, SueC can speak and write with unrestricted ease in the common language of Australia. And her education has passed the high school level, unlike half of dreamers - even after living in the US for years.










https://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/new...se-county-howard-buffett-immigration-11110407​
I'm not really interested in discussing politics. It is too likely to divide us and I'd rather focus on what unites us. But in February 2019, illegal immigration hit a 12 year high. That has a big impact on Arizona as well. I don't know how to solve the problem. But I see one. I know three people in the Border Patrol/ICE. They are very frustrated, to put it mildly. And not because of race. NOTHING to do with race! Heck, Hispanics are 30% of Arizona's population. 35% in my county. Non Hispanic whites are expected to be a minority of the population in Arizona within the next 10 years. "Brown" isn't the issue. What to do with an ever-expanding population? THAT is going to be a problem in Arizona well after "whites" are a minority of the population - which absolutely WILL happen, and soon.


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## SueC

By the way, something I just wanted to make really clear - because if you're a person who says that it's a problem that people are breeding above replacement rate on this planet, you often get accused of being anti-human, and not liking people etc. It's such bollocks. Analogy: I love horses. You all know that. But, I have three horses, not thirty, and those three are "recycled" from other people. I've never bred a horse in my life, because I saw what breeding too many of them was doing to the place my parents bought, and to any place where there are more horses than the land and the pasture can sustain. Same principle.

I'm not saying nobody should have children, clearly, or even that nobody should breed horses. I just think people ought to take a bit more care and think about the consequences of overdoing things. I feel for the women in poor countries who'd like to have fewer children but don't have the means. I feel for the children I've taught who were only there because there was nothing better on television for their parents on a certain night, and who don't come to school with a lunch, and who aren't loved and cherished - I've seen far too much of that, and of that cycle repeating.

Just out of interest, @bsms, has your wife ever encountered nastiness in the US because she's "brown" and a migrant?


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## bsms

On one occasion, in a Costco parking lot, my wife and Filipina DIL had a guy shout, "Go back to China!" at them. They laughed and a nearby white guy told the shouter to shut up and get out. It has remained a family joke..."_Don't make me send you back to China!_" My wife's a nurse and my DIL a patient care tech. Both have had a few patients who didn't like their brownness. But they've had others who liked them BECAUSE they were brown, so....call it a draw?

That said, my wife and DIL have both worked hard to become proficient in English. My wife took all her classes in the US and doing so in English was very hard for her. But the payback has been she can talk to doctors without problem. The two kids we adopted in the Philippines both REFUSED to speak Tagalog at home. Just would not do it! I thought it a pity, but I understood. My son is often mistaken for Mexican. Sometimes for being black. He calls himself a mongrel and doesn't worry about it. He's 5'2" tall and gets more flack for that than for skin color. Although he gets ****ed when someone assumes he is Mexican and just starts speaking Spanish. And no, he can't speak Spanish any more than Tagalog.

I also suspect the West US and Arizona are less race-sensitive than other parts. I wouldn't deny racism exists, but I don't think it controls many peoples' outcomes here. Since leaving the military, sometimes doing part time work, I've had more non-white supervisors than white. 

Note: I don't know what term to use since most of the Hispanics I know consider themselves to be white, just not northern European white - quite reasonably, since I'm "browner" than some of my Hispanic neighbors. My niece has a father in law who has been in the USA for 50 years and who speaks no English. His mustache would put anything I could grow to shame, but he has whiter skin than I do. His mustache looks very Mexican. Apart from that, by looks, he could be English.

It is completely reasonable to debate what standards should apply to immigration. Who should be allowed, and why, and what numbers. Uncontrolled immigration - from California or Mexico, makes any planning for the future a waste of time.Much of the west looks very empty. It is that way because no one can live without water. Water is our limiting constraint, not acres of land. And "water" isn't visible - particularly now that we've drained all the surface water out of our rivers!

I agree with you on some things at least, @SueC, and not just horses. I think we have plenty of humans on the planet. But a poor person in the Philippines, for example, NEEDS lots of kids. In many ways, that IS the retirement plan. What is good for him individually isn't what is good for the Philippines or the world, but he doesn't need a lecture from an old white guy in Arizona! He is doing what is best for HIS future, which is largely how I live my life too.

I'm not nearly smart enough or well informed enough to "know the answers". I don't. TRULY do not! But I don't see any politicians in Arizona, from any party, who truly admit a problem exists. They just chant, "Grow, GROW, *GROW!*" But...what happens then?


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## SueC

First of all, I really take my hat off to that white guy in the parking lot! :bowwdown:

And isn't the ignorance of these shouters amusing...

It's nice to hear that your family has had a reasonably civilised migrant experience. Australia really has too much of a nasty underbelly when it comes to differences in ethnic origin. Often, as an ESL migrant, you're better off talking to other migrants, who'll treat you as an equal and a human being. Or to other people who understand the nastiness to difference in that Australian Neanderthal underbelly - such as LGBTQI people. Just out of curiosity, how common are racial terms of abuse in the US, from your experience? Because here, there's a denigrating term for pretty much every migrant group that ever came to this country - wog, garlic-muncher, teatowel, slit-eye, pom, kraut, paddy, etc etc - and even for the original inhabitants - "boongs, Abos" - I learnt all these terms in my first six months in Australia and it shocked me - because these terms weren't used affectionately, they were used acidly and very frequently to spit upon people. (They're not always, but they very often are.) They were also often accompanied by the "universal adjective" - _effing_, and the choice word _c*nt_. I was like: :eek_color:

We had an exchange student at that middle school, also from Europe, and she was going, "mg: Sue, what _is_ this?" It's not that we'd not seen nastiness before in Europe, it's the _extent_ to which we saw it, mainstreamed in that place, and not as a minority thing. By the way, the exchange student wasn't targeted as she was seen as a "guest" and was "going back where she belonged anyway".

My experience might have been significantly different had I come to Sydney as a child - the microcosms sort of vary depending on where you are. In Sydney, there's more of a mix of people, and it's more respectful. But that's not to say people don't have unpleasant experiences there - people in general, for whatever difference a hater will pick.

What can you do, except retain your personal dignity and do your best to be fair and welcoming to other people, and to stand up for people who are having bad experiences with Neanderthals.

And by the way, @bsms, I agree about the difference in circumstances affecting how many children a family might want. Also, a person in the Phillippines could have ten children, and they'd do less environmental damage than the average Western child grows up to do, because of the differences in resource consumption and wastage. So instead of saying, "Nobody can have more than two kids!" I'm saying, "Women should be able to plan their families, so that circumstances don't force them to have more children than they actually wanted." Like those rural women the WHO surveyed in Africa when I was at university - and it's still going on. And also, I think that under no circumstances should payments be made for people to set out to have more than two children - like they tried to do in Australia for a while, in the 1990s - they tried to actually pay people to have babies. I don't mean maternity leave, but a cash payment called the "baby bonus", while actively encouraging people to have "One for mum, one for dad and one for the country" - that was the slogan used. I found that totally irresponsible. There's already so many people, and so many of them not cared for, and so many refugees rotting in camps. And adding a person above replacement rate in a Western country is on average more than ten times as damaging to the planet than adding one in rural Nepal, because of differences in resource consumption and wastage.

It's a complicated topic, and we're not going to solve it by discussing it on the Internet. But, I enjoy being able to talk about complex subjects with other people, and hearing what they have to say (assuming they have more than two neurons and don't slang off at others). It's interesting to compare lived experiences in different countries - and great to be able to do it so easily these days - couldn't have had this sort of international chat 20 years ago!

In Australia, legal migration alone is bringing the local ecosystems to the brink. We're already way above carrying capacity for this continent, at the current rate of average resource consumption. And the resource consumption, and waste, is encouraged in the name of "growth" and "gross national product" and "consumer confidence" etc. So Western people are on average overconsuming, and filling up landfills faster than they can be dug, while people in poor countries are often living well below the poverty line. And the other ridiculous thing is that, of course, money and happiness don't go hand in hand, but Western politicians and economists often talk as if they do. You need a certain amount of money to meet your physical needs for food, shelter, bills, etc. It's nice to be able to have hobbies. But the thing that's being sold to Australians as a lifestyle to aspire to - McMansion, one car per family member, boat, holiday house, all the latest gadgets as soon as you can upgrade, more clothes than you can ever wear, consumer goods that break in under a year and then you have to replace them, redecorating your house every year to keep "on trend", building enormous poorly designed buildings that guzzle energy to keep the occupants from freezing or boiling, annual international holiday - is just ridiculous, and doesn't actually produce happiness, either. When all is said and done, happiness comes from having good relationships with the people around you, having truly meaningful things to do, having people to love and who love you, being connected to your community (where you can find it), and not being removed from nature - being able to breathe and feel the sun on your skin, and walk up a mountainside, and admire the million beautiful things that are all around us, as long as we don't cover them with concrete and suburbia...

Brett and I are very happy with ending up living on a small farm and feel (and are) really privileged, but our bank argues with us when we want to repay capital on the loan we took out to complete our house, because they feel we don't have "enough money" going into our accounts to be able to do it. They don't understand that we have no electricity bills because we generate our own, no water bills because we drink rainwater, less than half the average Australian expenditure on groceries because of increasingly growing our own food, no car loans or personal loans to pay off, just a single small fuel-efficient car between us, no complex farm machinery to maintain, no expensive hobbies to finance - the horses, the way we keep them, 95% live off the land and cost very little (Romeo was an exception, feeding him cost as much as feeding one of us). I trim their feet and look after them. Brett and I built our own house, and we read books and love to write, and we listen to music, and watch good drama, and go hiking, and have ridiculous conversations, and sometimes go camping. 

Our quality of life as seen by us is now far better than when we worked two professional jobs between us. We have more time for each other, and we do more things for ourselves that were previously outsourced, and we love doing so, it's really satisfying. Life is great. But according to the economists' way of thinking, our quality of life has collapsed since we downshifted and started working part-time only for outside employers. And of course, if everyone lived like we did, the country would be in recession. Tells you something about the ludicrous system we operate under. John Steinbeck wrote about it in _Grapes Of Wrath_, didn't he?

...mmmmh, I think I've used up my word quota for today, @bsms, no? ;-)


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## bsms

I admit my own experience is very limited. The military has long been more integrated than society as a whole, and much of my life has been spent on military bases and around military families. Retired, I spend more time around horses and dogs than people. Suits me fine, but leaves me out of touch with much of society. Which, I guess, also suits me fine. I may well miss out on much going on around me. I can't pretend I've ever understood other humans very well. Dogs and horses are so much more HONEST!


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## SueC




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## Knave

I have been asked my nationality many times in my life, and I never thought anything of it. In my mind it’s not an insulting question.

So, your conversation kind of explains a thing that happened to me once. I was younger, subbing a high school class of seniors I think. The most beautiful girl came in, and she spoke with an accent I didn’t know. I had no idea she was the daughter of a person I knew, although makes sense as she is a beauty too.

Anyways, I asked her what nationality she was. She seemed uncomfortable when she said Hispanic. I said, “well, that doesn’t answer the question at all. Everyone is Hispanic. I could call myself Hispanic.” 

Another boy and I discussed that being my response. The mood lightened in the girl and she answered that she was Cuban. She was a nice girl, but I think a very quiet girl, but after that she was always one to come up and talk to me. Often about heritage. Lol

Also, @SueC I am so sorry you were bullied as a kid. I went through a stage where I was too, and it was very hard. I am glad we don’t get stuck being children forever. Kids are mean!


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## knightrider

Reading about the unkind things that people said and did to you @SueC, reminded me of an interesting event that happened to me. I was born in 1948, right after WWII. My mother told everyone, including me, that her family came from Denmark and her grandmother was Danish.

When I was helping my mom take apart her household so she could move to assisted living, I came across a German Bible. "Where in the world did this come from and why do we have it?" Mom said that it was her grandmother's Bible. "But she was from Denmark! Why would she have a German Bible?"

Then Mom confessed that her danner was actually German. I imagine that living in Washington DC during WWII would make her very unpopular to admit that she was of German descent.


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## bsms

I was a military brat and my Dad liked moving. Before his death in Vietnam, we moved almost annually. I was always "the new kid" and the bullying was fighting. Not name-calling or insults. Getting jumped and forced to fight kind of bullying. I'd have been happy if they stopped with insults! Maybe that is why I'm part hermit. You don't have to fight someone you don't meet!

I nearly made another comment about illegal immigration but I don't want to go too deep into politics. However, for thought provoking reading, here are two links that seem pretty balanced in their description of the problem:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/06/30/world/smuggling-illegal-immigration-costs.html

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/imm...-immigrant-families-again-surge-across-border

FWIW, the Border Patrol guys I know are very sympathetic to the innocent people crossing. Their views on the coyotes are...unprintable.


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## whisperbaby22

This is a problem of all peoples at all times. The only thing that changes it is when a civilization falls. 

I was born in California, unlike most of the people I know here. I'm a native. But I do get a certain amount of blowback from the (I guess you'd call them Mexican) population that is in the majority, population wise, of the city I live in. That bias against me is not going to change. I feel that what counts for me on a day to day basis is to be just be aware of it. 

On the other hand, I rarely encounter vaqueros out on the trail as anything else but friendly and excellent horsemen.


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## bsms

A co-worker a few years back told me about her childhood. Her father was Puerto Rican. Mother from a Cuban family. The parents were not married and the father left when she was a baby. She dropped out of high school, lived with friends, worked, eventually went back to school and even was mostly thru college. The reason she left? Her Cuban heritage family wouldn't accept her. She was 30 when I knew her and her grandmother had never even admitted she was alive! Would not touch her, talk to her, and never listed her as one of her grandchildren!

She told me to story to make the point that some people WANT to hate. If they do, they will find a reason. More precisely, an excuse. Poor Irish arriving in America in the 1800s weren't welcome. Nor were Italians. Humans (and maybe animals in general) seem good at spotting some difference and then driving "the other" out.

"_During the filming of Planet of the Apes in 1967, Charlton Heston noted “an instinctive segregation on the set. Not only would the apes eat together, but the chimpanzees ate with the chimpanzees, the gorillas ate with the gorillas, the orangutans ate with the orangutans, and the humans would eat off by themselves. It was quite spooky.”

James Franciscus noticed the same thing filming Beneath the Planet of the Apes in 1969. “During lunch I looked up and realized, ‘My God, here is the universe,’ because at one table were all the orangutans eating, at another table were the apes, and at another table were the humans. The orangutan characters would not eat or mix with the ape characters, and the humans wouldn’t sit down and eat with any one of them.

“I remember saying, ‘Look around — do you realize what’s happening here? This is a little isolated microcosm of probably what’s bugging the whole world. Call it prejudice or whatever you want to call it. Whatever’s different is to be shunned or it’s frightening or so forth.’ Nobody was intermingling, even though they were all humans underneath the masks. The masks were enough to bring out our own little genetic natures of fear and prejudice. It was startling.”"
_
https://lastedenblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/26/planet-of-the-apes-and-prejudice/

I'm not sure I even WANT to understand humans sometimes...:evil:


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## SueC

@Knave, I don't mind being asked what my nationality is, unless it's asked with an undertone, the kind of undertone that won't accept "Australian" for an answer, even though it is true - and most of the time the people who asked me that question in Australia asked it with an undertone. But in London, for example, when I was working there, if people asked it, there was no undertone, but generally surprise at the answer, "Oh wow, we thought you were continental European!" and I'd laugh and say, "Well, that's where I was born, so good guess!"

In Sydney, people tended to ask, "What's your cultural background?" and not with an undertone, when they got to know you, and share theirs. That's perfectly fine - and also how I tend to ask about it, because of course I'm really interested in people's cultural backgrounds - and I don't assume they don't belong here because they're not Anglo or whatever. The question about _nationality_ in Australia tends to be loaded, and tends to come from ignorant and uneducated white people. So do all the slurs I recounted before. The "Go back where you came from" line is so common here that our multicultural broadcaster SBS made a documentary of that name, which educated some of those people, like in this excerpt below, where they took white Australians to Syria to see the refugee crisis at first hand:






The way Australia has been treating genuine refugees lately has been appalling, especially considering how huge our intake of non-urgent migrants is. My family didn't need to come here - we had economic security and a home already, and nobody was bombing us. But because of my father's bank balance, they rolled out the red carpet immediately. You can basically buy your way into Australia, and then make no contribution to the community whatsoever on a personal level. My parents simply retired here in their 40s - neither of them ever worked here, or volunteered in the community. Their contribution was merely economic, sort of like a paying hotel guest.

I've taught lots of immediate economic migrants, and some refugees, and they tend to be very motivated and community-orientated. If the mainstream Australian culture doesn't let them in socially, and/or harasses them, they are sort of forced to have community with people of similar backgrounds, who at least understand them and treat them with decency.

It was an eye-opener teaching at Sydney Girls High School, an academically selective school. Less than 10% of the students were "white" Australians - the vast majority were Chinese, or Korean, or from other Asian countries - this was before the Syrian refugee crisis. It was a total pleasure to teach there. Those cultures simply have a better work ethic and value education and good manners more than mainstream Australian culture, which can be really anti-intellectual, rude and disinterested in working hard. I've taught at some schools in certain uneducated white quarters where the students want to do as little as they can possibly get away with - they actively avoid working. That's also the kinds of communities where most of the racist slurs and hatred come from. It's the sort of milieu in which our home-grown Australian terrorist who bombed people in Christchurch recently is totally at home in. If you want to know what I am talking about, go to YouTube direct and read some of the comments there that were made on SBS's "Go Back Where You Came From" clips. It's appalling. I don't know why such horrible people think they are so Australian. These are the "yobbos", really. They're actually the worst people in this country, and the least deserving of being in our community. We shouldn't tolerate their behaviour.

Just in case anyone gets the wrong impression, I've also taught at lovely schools with majority-white populations, where kids were fun and motivated. But this was in communities where education and hard work were valued. In these communities, students from other ethnic groups tend to be included just like everyone else. I've got to praise Australian Catholic schools in particular here, because every single one of them that I set foot in had a wonderful, inclusive, multicultural ethos. In areas with lots of yobbos, the "ethnic" kids tend to be sent to Catholic schools to avoid bullying. It actually really helps when these kids are taught from the time they are tiny that humans come in all colours and shapes - and Catholics do that really well, in the Australian education sector. It's one of the reasons I really enjoyed teaching there, despite not being Catholic. Also, these schools are very good at social justice projects - campouts for the homeless where they themselves spend a night in the school grounds with just a cardboard box and some blankets etc, and raise funds and awareness, as well as experiencing "how the other half live". Activities to support refugees, etc. And if you go to the church services for the students, which as staff you do, it's really wonderful how "those who are less fortunate than us" are remembered each and every time, and "how can we help". 

@bsms, we have a nice and quite sizeable Filipino community here in Albany, and they're a total pleasure to interact with, and to teach; and a good influence on other students! Also, they have the _best_ lunchbox contents... nutritious food home-prepared with love and care. Re the being jumped on, that happened to me, but I was younger and smaller than my cohort here and had no fighting skills. It also happened to my husband as a child - lots of yobbos at his school - and he's got strong tendencies to be a hermit as an adult. It's lovely that his workplace is great - full of friendly, genuine people who are also well educated. They're always exchanging books amongst each other! 

@knightrider, I am not surprised about the concealment. I changed my surname just before university graduation and immediately noticed a difference in the way I was treated by certain parts of the community. My accent is international, and very few pick me as German-origin (but I'm also part-Italian) based on that. It was helpful to not wear the obvious label when joining the workforce, and not to advertise that English was my second language (it's my primary language anyway, by a long shot). After that, mostly people guessed I was of South African origin, which didn't come with the same baggage. It's all very silly!


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## bsms

Count Toptani and Sugar



> I want to mention here another experiment I made with a young horse, first handled and ridden by me and trained by me. I wanted to prove that jumping is an unnatural movement to the horse, but that any horse could become a good jumper if it was trained in such a manner that it did not realize it was doing anything unnatural. I trained it in the manner explained in the chapter on training the young horse, but every time it jumped I rewarded it generously with a good double handful of sugar, whether it did well or not. I never once used a whip in the training, maintaining that the moment the horse was punished it would associate jumping with pain.
> 
> The result was amazing. After some months of this training the horse would think of only one thing: to get as fast as possible into the jumping paddock and look around for a jump to leap over! Jumping became its obsession. When I took that horse out into the open it would still be looking for something to jump over, and when it encountered a hunt jump, wall or garden fence it would make off at a gallop and jump happily over it, then stop, look back and ask me for sugar! I could go with that horse into a huge open field with one solitary jump erected in the centre and it would immediately make a bee-line for the obstacle and jump it.
> 
> But the same horse which passed its time looking for obstacles to jump never once jumped over the low, 3-foot rails of the grazing paddock simply because I never once made it jump without a rider on its back. This is the reason why I strongly advocate NOT making horses jump without a rider; it teaches them bad habits and serves no real purpose at all. - Modern Show Jumping, Count Ilias Topiani, 1954


Not sure I want a horse who jumps, and certainly not one who looks for excuses to jump and then stops and asks for sugar...but it speaks to how some sort of reward and a refusal to punish can motivate a horse!


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## bsms

Just finished a short ride on Bandit. The wife was out of town so we stayed in the little arena. I don't feel adventurous when there is no one to call if things go wrong. Used a snaffle bit out of the drawer today. Gotta mix things up to keep it interesting. Used the Momma Bear setting for stirrups and we alternated a minute of trot/canter with a minute of eating the green grass that will soon burn up under the coming summer sun. Bandit & I both thought that was fair.

Then cleaned the corral and fed them. Bandit left his food and wanted attention. I'd hold my arm up and he'd rub his closed eyes against the muscle of my forearm. After 5 minutes I left the corral, but he followed to where I was doing other stuff, ignoring his food with his head over the corral fence. So I spent another 5 minutes letting him rub his face and mostly his eyes against my arm. Then he was ready for food and I went to get other stuff done.

Obviously a very lazy day. There is a thread about "bonding". I've come to dislike the term. But if, at the end of a ride, your horse ignores his food so he can rub his face against you...it is kind of "bond-ish". Even if it mostly meant his eyes itched.

Of course, Trooper continues to believe I'm the distilled essence of Hitler, Mao & Stalin. But Bandit and I goofed around as the sun started to set, then I cleaned the corral with relaxed horses...and Bandit sought me out. Sweat on my back. The dusty smell of the corral with a touch of horse manure. The sun going down. Just a touch of a breeze. And a sociable horse.

Life could be much worse! :loveshower:


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## SueC

Have you got an old bath towel, @bsms? It's great for scratching their heads, and saves your arms and clothing when you want to have a snuggle/scratch session. They also enjoy it after riding:






Harness racers get such itchy heads when out training or racing, with all the sweat under the bridle, so everyone sponges and then towels the horses' faces after training or racing - and washes the rest of them, followed by scraper and towel. Riding horses don't always need washing, but do appreciate their heads being towelled, where the bridle was especially. You can hold a towel out to my horses when they have itchy heads, and they'll zoom right in. If you have a big bathtowel and make it into a scrunched-up sort of ball, they can DIY. Much more comfortable for us! 

I was hoping to ride today, but it's hailing! :shock:


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## bsms

My wife sometimes comes out with a wet washcloth for the horses' faces. Me? With Bandit, I just hold my arm up. He decides where to rub, how hard and how long. Probably accounts for some cuts and bruising on my arms, but it is worth it.

But when the pollen gets thick enough, their eyes really water and then going out with a wet washcloth really helps. My wife (now a former nurse since she quit her job in February) will use one to get goop even from the inside of their eyelids. She doesn't ride much but all three horses trust her with their eyes.

Today? We really did nothing in terms of riding. Yet it felt so relaxing at the end...


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## SueC

bsms said:


> Of course, Trooper continues to believe I'm the distilled essence of Hitler, Mao & Stalin.


:rofl: This is the sort of writing I love. It makes me think, "How would one do that? Throw them all in a big vat together and then bathe in the results?" Nothing like a good metaphor.

I wonder why he thinks that? Did he have bad experiences with people before you got him?




> But Bandit and I goofed around as the sun started to set, then I cleaned the corral with relaxed horses...and Bandit sought me out. Sweat on my back. The dusty smell of the corral with a touch of horse manure. The sun going down. Just a touch of a breeze. And a sociable horse.
> 
> Life could be much worse! :loveshower:


Indeed. This is the side of equine life you don't get when you have to agist your horses. Unless you camp out in their paddocks! But I increasingly think that this is actually the best part...


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## bsms

SueC said:


> ...I wonder why he thinks that? Did he have bad experiences with people before you got him?...


Yes. He spent a few years herding sheep. The sheepherders are hired for knowing about sheep. Most have never been on a horse before. Some become good riders. All need to be bold riders. But some have no trouble with beating a horse into submission.

In addition, my friend sold us Trooper before we had a place to put him. He loaned him to another guy's ranch, thinking Trooper would get better feed and less work there. The other rancher agreed Trooper would NOT be used for cutting cattle, which Trooper hates.

Well, as soon as Trooper got there, the other rancher decided to turn Trooper into a cutting horse. To include spurring him viciously. When my friend picked him up to ship to us, he found open wounds on Trooper's sides. They healed over during the next month, but were very obvious when Trooper arrived:








You can also see where they used a saddle that didn't fit. 10 years later, the scars are hidden by hair. They are still there. If you try to cue Trooper with your heels, he may buck. Fortunately, he's naturally obedient enough that a little calf pressure is all it takes.

Trooper didn't associate the pain with spurs. He associated it with cowboy hats. When he arrived, the trainer who was working with Lily came over wearing her cowboy hat. Trooper freaked. Hit the corral panels so hard that 3 of them went flying. We sent Trooper to the trainer's place. It took her 4.5 weeks of work to get Trooper to where she could rub a cowboy hat on him. It then took 0.5 weeks for her to decide he was an excellent trail horse.

Since then, he's been my youngest daughter's horse. I've sometimes ridden him for months, but 80% of his riding has been with my daughter. My daughter's interest in riding consists of "riding Trooper". She's never wanted to ride a different horse. She is very low-key. As in somnambulant:








She says Trooper dislikes me because I'm too loud. Not in volume. Not in cues. Just in life. Too opinionated - imagine that! Me? 

Mia insisted on an involved rider. When my daughter rode Mia once for a lesson, it lasted less than 10 minutes. Then Mia, for the one time in her 7 years with us, bucked. Hard. 4 times. My daughter flew off at #4, and then (according to the instructor), Mia looked at my daughter as if to say, "You are not worthy!" - and then strolled over to where we take the tack off the horses. Lesson OVER!

Bandit would quickly learn to take charge and make all the decisions if my daughter rode him regularly. To include enforcing those decisions if my daughter wasn't obedient. Not because he's a "bad horse". Like Mia, he feels competent to lead and he will do so. With me...he has to compromise and find solutions acceptable to us both. Or I'll go hoof to toe with him. Bandit isn't a horse for the meek. With Bandit, the meek WILL inherit the earth - face first, into the dirt! Which isn't exactly how Jesus meant it, and that is why one needs to read the Bible in context! :rofl:

This is my favorite picture of Mia & Trooper. Two very different horses with two very different riders. Mia had no use for my daughter. Trooper has no use for me. Both were content - with a matching rider:








And there is this one, with a contented horse and contented rider. Trooper is an excellent horse when ridden by a matching rider. He's an obedient horse when I ride him. But to be a happy horse, he needs a certain type of rider:


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## SueC

Maybe also he prefers women because his bad experiences weren't with them? This happens sometimes.

He's such a pretty horse - and I now recall you telling his story before, and seeing these photos. mg: some people...

I've probably said this before, but it's no surprise to me at all that someone who's flown F-111s would be drawn to a horse like Mia as a _first-up _horse!  Hee hee hee. That sort of horse is the F-111 of the equine world... :runpony:


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## Chevaux

I really like the daughter and Trooper pictures - they look like a couple of comfortable old friends.


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## lb27312

I hope you don't mind me asking but is the area circled in red from the spurs?? I hope not, that really brings tears to my eyes.... Not sure why there would be a need for that. If not disregard, could be just an odd spot! I was just curious. I do like the picture of him being ridden by your daughter, he just looks so comfortable.


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## Knave

@lb27312 I was thinking that was scarring too, and a bit aghast myself! Some people...


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## knightrider

I am reading a book that you would probably really like. It is called The Perfect Horse by Elizabeth Letts. She is also the author of The $80 Champion, the story of Snowman, the draft horse show jumper. Her writing in The Perfect Horse is not as well done as the Snowman book, but the story is fascinating. The Perfect Horse is the story of the Lippizaners in WWII. We all know Disney's famous movie The Miracle of the White Stallions, but there is so much more to the story than what could be put in a movie.

One of the concepts that I was completely unaware of, is called "eugenics". Here is the definition:
"the science of improving a human population by controlled breeding to increase the occurrence of desirable heritable characteristics. Developed largely by Francis Galton as a method of improving the human race, it fell into disfavor only after the perversion of its doctrines by the Nazis."

I was not aware that a number of people in the upper classes during the 20's and 30's thought it was their duty to improve the human population, similarly to breeding dogs and horses. The method, according to the book, was forced sterilization of undesirable humans.

The leaders from the National Socialist German Worker's Party in that time period were also interested in improving horse breeding. Unfortunately, the director of the national horse breeding program, thought that "pure blood" was essential and line breeding was the way to keep bloodlines pure. He did not approve of the Lippizaner conformation, so was determined to breed out the standard Lippizaner characteristics and turn them into something more like a thoroughbred horse.

I got The Perfect Horse from the library on-line on my tablet. Didn't have to buy it. I think you would like it very much.


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## egrogan

Loved that book! Even my non-horsey family enjoyed reading it


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## bsms

Yes, @lb27312 , the circled area is where Trooper has scarring from being spurred for not wanting to cut cattle. Hair has mostly grown over it but the lumpy flesh is still there 10 years later. He is a small horse and a bit shy, far more like his dam than his aggressive sire. The distinct white spot on his withers is matched perfectly on the other side, as is the spur scar. A too wide saddle will do that, particularly if you use it while roping.

It isn't so hard, I guess, to see how Trooper might dislike loud men...

Long way to the library, @knightrider. Ordered it used from Amazon for $7 including shipping, which isn't much more than the gas would cost me for a trip to the library.


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## SueC

@bsms, I heard two jokes that tie in with something you posted here in a recent discussion...

How many Californians does it take to screw in a lightbulb? - 100 - one to do it, and 99 to share the experience.

How many New Yorkers does it take to screw in a lightbulb? - Mind your own effing business!


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## whisperbaby22

Lately it's one Californian to screw it in, and 99 to help pay for it. Our liberal governor is busy piling on taxes, cheapest gas is $4 and roads here are terrible. I'm not making a political statement, just want to make people outside of CA to feel better.


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## bsms

My son now lives in California. My youngest daughter (military) is stationed in Monterey. I once lived in Tehachapi. There was a lot to like in California, but I still strongly prefer Arizona - and the two are very different states! 

We retired in Arizona because I like the culture here. ******* libertarian is how I would describe it, once you get out of the big cities. Much of Arizona wouldn't blink an eye if a Martian moved in next to them, provided the martian didn't try to tell them how to live.

At a restaurant that has been in Tucson almost as long as I've been alive, guests who wear ties get their ties cut off:








You can still ride in the back of a pickup (although I tend to worry when I see someone doing it on the Interstate). In most cases, you can carry a gun without needing a license. We just sent a bisexual to the Senate, and it wasn't an issue in the campaign! Some of her public comments were an issue, but no one cared who she slept with. 

Our Mexican food isn't Mexican. Praise the Lord, it is also different from California Mexican food ( :thumbsup: ) but can't match New Mexico's Mexican food. But it is better than Texan Mexican food...:cheers:...and we lived in New Mexico long enough for my wife to cook more like a New Mexican than a Filipina.

I don't want to get into right or wrong, but we are different and I moved here because we - my entire family - liked the differences! I just want to keep the attitude and culture and oddities that make Arizona Arizona. Lower taxes than California, too! :smiley_flag:


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## whisperbaby22

Lately it's one Californian to screw it in, and 99 to help pay for it. Our liberal governor is busy piling on taxes, cheapest gas is $4 and roads here are terrible. I'm not making a political statement, just want to make people outside of CA to feel better.


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## whisperbaby22

I consider myself lucky to live where I do. My husband puts up with my horse and he likes living in what he considers "rural". Most of the trail riders here are vaquero, and as I said somewhere else, my city has some of the finest horse in the US right here. I would love to post pictures to prove it but of course I cannot. All these high dollar horses are subsidizing my horse and keeping my property horse zoned.


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## bsms

I posted this video on a thread about barrel racing and "position". It is the only video I've found to date of a champion barrel racer ( Kristie Peterson ) riding in slow motion. The horse is Bozo.

"_In addition to the world championship, Peterson’s peers picked her and Bozo for a few special awards in 1996. For the second straight year [1997], Bozo was named the WPRA/ AQHA Horse of the Year. The Top 15 also voted him the Horse With the Most Heart for the second consecutive season...Peterson appreciates every win, every prize, every run she has with this great horse. Her only complaint has nothing to do with his talent. It’s his arrogant personality that makes them opposites. “Because he’s so great, I’d like to love on him a little bit,” she said. “But he just won’t tolerate it. Let’s just say that if he was a person, you wouldn’t want to be married to him._” 

https://barrelhorsenews.com/barrel-racing-articles/throwback-thursday/kristie-peterson-and-bozo/






I can't even imagine what it takes just to stay on a horse like that!

Oh...and there is this:

"_When Peterson bought the unbroke 2-year-old stud (whose registered name is French Flash Hawk) for *$400*, her intentions were to break the renegade and “just try to make a profit._” 

And, "_In addition to the four WPRA world titles, the Peterson-Bozo duo finished as reserve champion three times (1993, 1995, 1999), earned five consecutive National Finals Rodeo average titles (1994-98) and four Dodge National Circuit Finals Rodeo titles (1992, 1994-95, 1998)_."

I think what I enjoyed in the video was her refusal to bow to "The Rules" of "Proper Riding". She was too busy concentrating on staying on and guiding her horse to worry about how she looked. The sheer raw power of the horse impressed me too.

I also thought this article made interesting reading:

https://www.florodeo.com/articles/6...y-barrel-racing-is-tougher-than-its-ever-been

Bandit and I aren't ever going to be in a barrel race. But the video made me smile and reminded me that when I rode this morning on Bandit to concentrate on having fun. Any time Bandit & I are having fun together, we're doing what our style of riding is all about. And if I'm stiff or awkward...Bandit doesn't care! From his perspective, the fact that he isn't carrying 300 lbs on his back is probably 'good enough'!

Good thing I was wearing a long sleeve shirt (sun protection). When we finished, Bandit wanted to rub his face, chin and ears. So I held my forearm up and he rubbed HARD, all over his face, concentrating on his ears and (unusually) his chin. He seemed content. Me? My thighs were aching before I went for a jog an hour later. Right now they feel like they are going to fall off!

But...we had fun. Not a bad bottom line.


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## SueC

bsms said:


> *Any time Bandit & I are having fun together, we're doing what our style of riding is all about.*


:happydance: :happydance: :charge: :charge: :charge: :racing: :loveshower: onkey:

Again, I'd really like to see this motto up on a big sign somewhere. If we had a :tardis: we could all get together on a weekend and make one for your place. @Knave can really paint, for instance, and would add to the creativity of the project. I'd need to find a decent wood-writing tool that doesn't take a millennium to make a small letter...

I've got another lightbulb joke, in the interest of fairness: How many Aussies does it take to screw in a lightbulb? - She'll be right, mate, I've got a torch here.


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## bsms

Posted this on another thread, but it is all about Bandit and how Bandit handles trail rides:



bsms said:


> Something I believe, although I cannot prove: While horses may spook at something they see, they also rely strongly on hearing and smell. Bandit to this day will stroll past a dozen garbage cans, then become very concerned over #13 - or #33. There are garbage days where he doesn't care (much) about any of them, but then a day will come where ONE is a problem. MY explanation is that the scary one smells different to him. Maybe some rotting meat inside?
> 
> I can't smell it and Bandit now KNOWS I cannot smell it. He has also become aware that he hears things long before I hear them. People say the horse should just trust the rider, but what do you do when the horse KNOWS the rider can't smell or hear well enough to assess the threat? I'm pretty sure Bandit views me as a badly handicapped rider incapable of early detection of possible threats. OTOH, once I view and think about a threat, he knows I'm pretty good - based on a long track record - of deciding how much a threat that thing is and how to handle it.
> 
> Jet fighters have a RWR - Radar Warning Receiver. A simplified display (pulled off the Internet) would look like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That would tell you the plane is heading toward an SA-2, 3, and 6, with the SA-2 (surface-to-air missile 2) being the primary danger at the moment. I think Bandit has assumed the role of an equine RWR. When he hears or smells something of concern, he gives indications of increasing discomfort about something. Like an RWR, he tries to give azimuth and approximate range (where he looks and degree of discomfort). If I can spot it, look at it and decide how to proceed, he usually (not 100%!) accepts my judgment. But since he knows this particular monkey on his back isn't good at detecting threats, he may become pretty agitated over...something...at the 2 o'clock position (for those old enough to remember analog clocks). And if I cannot detect and properly assess "the threat" before it enters the "lethal range", then Bandit may choose to take evasive action.
> 
> From his perspective, trail rides are where he leads his herd through bad guy territory with assistance from the staff officer he carries on his back. Only HIS staff officer has a broken threat detection system, so Bandit needs to feed his staff officer information.
> 
> I don't know if any other horses are like that. Bandit is a bit of a character. My description seems a good fit for how he behaves on a trail ride. And I have no idea how one would "desensitize" him apart from just riding him, listening to him and making good decisions. My whacking him with a carrot stick or pool noodle in a corral would be SOOOOOOO unhelpful! It would just mean his staff officer was BOTH handicapped AND psychotic!


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## Chevaux

Good analysis bsms. That’s excellent human understanding of equine logic😀


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## knightrider

My favorite light bulb joke (since I was a special ed teacher). How many ADHD kids does it take to screw in a light bulb?

"Let's go ride bikes!"

PS I adore troubled kids.


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## bsms

Haven't had any pictures of Bandit & I taken in a long time, but my wife walked Trooper (she was nervous about riding) so I had some pictures from today. It will be obvious I am not some fine rider and that age, back injuries and my love of jogging affect my riding. Oh well. One of the great things about owning a horse and riding him regularly is the horse learns to accept you as you are - something we need to learn to do with horses to some degree. Wanting improvement is OK, but a little bit of humility needs to be mixed in. Improvements tend to come slow to horses and riders, and maybe being happy with each other beats stressing over perfection.

In order, with a few comments:








^ This is Bandit when he is strolling along relaxed. I'm asking him to go left using the reins. A trend I see in all the pictures is that I don't have the slack I think I have. That is why I love seeing pictures or videos. Not that I love what I see, but because I then see reality - and what I need to work on to make a better reality in the future! Applying a neck rein, using the approach to neck reining taught by the US Cavalry, will take the slack out of the reins. With a solid curb bit, that WILL rotate the curb. Yet Bandit understands the totality of what is being asked. He doesn't break things down into smaller steps and get confused.

The next two are seconds apart. We turn (over mild objection by Bandit - notice I'm applying a lot of rein pressure and a little heel) to meet my wife & Trooper, then I use a little leg to try to keep Bandit from turning around and resuming ASAP on his own:

















^As always, my left foot is turned more than my right. That is just the way I am. I am also tilted, which may also be how I frequently am. My guess is that I almost always have SOME tilt, but not normally as much as it looks like in this photo! Still...I think BANDIT looks adorable in the picture! It also shows how he gets wider just behind where my legs go, which is part of why my legs go where they do! If my heel was under my hip, it would have more horse to go around. I don't use leg cues very much - although I'm using my left leg to press into his side in the bottom picture to let him know I'm not ready to turn around yet - but a person who doesn't use leg often can afford to have his heels next to the cinch. Someone giving frequent direction to a horse via heels may need their heels further back.








^Re-entering the neighborhood. I'm using the "Poppa Bear" setting, but I increasingly just like this approach. There is a dirt road just to the right of us, but Bandit always prefers to use the more uneven terrain just off to the side of the road. It looks like more work to me, but maybe it is softer on his feet? The yellow blooms are a Palo Verde tree in blossom. The horse trailer in the background is my neighbor's.








Dismounting before reaching pavement. I'll lead Bandit the remaining 5 minutes home. I like this because good Bandit is darn near standing at attention. Mia sometimes was worried I was abandoning ship and could get squirrelly during a dismount. Bandit is rock solid at times like these. I really appreciate his cooperation!

Felt bad about how much I leaned, so went back and added a picture where Bandit is trotting away from my wife. Once I agreed it was OK to turn 180 and head home, he did so and jogged a little way. Until we got far enough from Trooper that Bandit felt he needed to slow down:








I think this one captures the reality of my leaning. I do lean sideways some. No getting around it. But not quite as much as it looks in some of the pictures. I also lean forward frequently, but I learned riding by reading Littauer. Works for us! Overall, Bandit behaved like a champ today. We dropped into the narrow wash today just because he seemed to want to go that direction. It has a couple of short but steep spots and he took careful baby steps walking slowly down - safer and more enjoyable to ride than when he would run down those spots. 

My wife seemed to enjoy being out with the horses even if she wasn't riding Trooper. I've tried to encourage her to ride sometimes in our little arena. I think it would do wonders for her confidence (and skill!)...but she seems to view it as an insult. :shrug: Goodness knows I do it enough myself that I can't be offering an insult. Oh well. But Bandit was rock solid today!


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## Knave

I am glad you had a good ride! I also think you look good up there and Bandit has a really pretty face.


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> I can't smell it and Bandit now KNOWS I cannot smell it. He has also become aware that he hears things long before I hear them. People say the horse should just trust the rider, but what do you do when the horse KNOWS the rider can't smell or hear well enough to assess the threat?


I think this is also why a person should see if a horse feels better if you look at a scary object or don't look at it. For some horses, if you don't look at it, they think maybe you didn't look because it's not a big deal to you, so you're not worried. Then they take comfort. 

For other horses, if you don't look at it, the horse thinks you are not noticing it, and it makes them _more_ worried. 
Sometimes you are better off looking, telling the horse you understand their concern, and then purposefully not staring at it so the horse knows you are not worried. Complicated!

Bandit does look very cute in that straight on photo. It's hard to tell from the side views that his barrel is sprung that much behind your leg. More like an Arab than a Mustang. 

In the "crooked" picture, we can't see if Bandit's hind leg is cocked or forward, so if his barrel is tilted you may be riding "straight" on a tilted body. 

People who ride crooked will have several issues: the saddle will become crooked on the horse, they will be crooked when the horse is straight (it's not crooked to sit aligned with the horse's barrel when it is tilted), and usually their shoulders will be uneven because they collapse toward one side.


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## SueC

Post 1832 gets an A+ from me. It's one of the best I've read in a while. :bowwdown:

Post 1835: Bandit looks really great - a different horse to when you got him. He's shiny, and spot on the right weight - which is great considering he had breaks from riding, a lot of people's horses "blow out" when not riding consistently. Also you look a fine team, comfortable with each other. Look at Bandit's ears when you are riding: Alert, happy, relaxed. And he's totally adorable in that photo where he's almost got this teddy bear expression.

Sunsmart at the start of his saddle education in 2009. Look how crooked I was on him because my mare's saddle didn't fit him properly and was always sliding to the right:










I bought a sheepskin numnah after that to straighten things out a bit before I could afford a new saddle:










It improved the situation:



















But, the custom-fitted (to him and me) saddle I got later made things simple:



This is a friend of mine on her OTTB. She's a really good rider, excellent with challenging horses - but on stills, you can see that basically all of us have at least little issues.




























This is a catcher at a local racetrack:










You can do so much with well-fitting tack, and more with things like Pilates. But, even with that, things aren't perfect, because none of us have perfect bodies. The most important thing is that things are comfortable all around - and that's achieved by the two combinations featured here, even in the "crooked" shot - and with Bandit and you.


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## bsms

"_She's a really good rider, excellent with challenging horses - but on stills, you can see that basically all of us have at least little issues._"

Thank you, @SueC! I learned the theory of riding by reading books, and the theory was always demonstrated with photos of people who were doing it perfectly. Usually top riders, who were excellent athletes in prime condition riding well-trained horses over groomed courses. And Bandit and I are none of those and never will be.

I still struggle with feeling inferior because Bandit and I don't look like they do in pictures. On the surface, I've long since concluded many of the rigid rules of riding don't mean much, but inside I struggle with feeling bad that how I approach riding is so different from what 'expert riders' say. Although...I notice experienced trail riders often are more flexible in their approach to riding than a lot of riding books and judges...

There is a balance somewhere in lessons versus no lessons. I wish my wife would get some lessons. Her confidence issues boil down to worrying she'll fall off. Those worries are not imaginary. There are things that would help her position, and time spent on reliable horses practicing things - or time spent on Trooper in our little arena - would make her a safer rider. That would make her a more confident rider. But...she has no interest in taking any lessons. Which severely limits her because her fear is based on reality.

The flip side though is that many riding instructors don't know much about riding. There are far too many things I've read in books by supposedly top instructors that just defy physics and gravity and everything I experience when I ride! And most of the problem comes from instructors who have never thought about anything from the HORSE's point of view!

As with many things in life, the answer isn't "either/or". A little of both, and maybe some large servings of a dozen other items is needed. My wife & DIL would both benefit as riders from some instruction, but a person can have weekly lessons for 10 years and turn into a person I wouldn't let ride my horses! I think the balance I'm looking for is between heart and mind.

My wife rides with her heart but not her mind. She has exceptional feel for horses, but needs more rigor. I started riding using my mind but not my heart. Not that I was heartless. I genuinely cared for Mia. But the mental rules and engineering approach I took to riding needed to expand enough to incorporate my horses' feelings, while my wife's appreciation of their hearts would be helped by some book-larnin'!


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## SueC

When I read that, I think you should write a riding book, and say all these things. I mean, who talks about the head and the heart in a riding book? But don't you think it matters enough to mention? I certainly do. Riding books concentrate on technicalities, often from a rigid perspective and frequently without apparently understanding that different bodies are going to have different sweet spots on different horses; they don't all look exactly the same. And, riding books tend not to make reference to the emotional side of the horse and the rider, yet who can be a decent horseperson without being emotionally in tune with their horse? Should anyone even be on the back of a horse without knowing, at least as a concept, that horses are emotional critters (not motorbikes) and will read your emotions, and often feed off them in their reactions? That you might need a bit of psychoanalysis or Buddhism or at least some honest self-reflection to get things smooth in your horseriding, rather than that you have a disrespectful horse who needs showing who's the boss? That you need to learn about yourself and the hidden aspects of what makes you tick, not just about horses?

I've got a question for you: What taught you more about yourself - flying F111s or riding Mia? It's a serious question, and I certainly would expect that flying would have taught you lots as well, I'm guessing about being mortal too. But how would you compare and contrast your experiences with these? What were the similarities, what were the differences?


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## bsms

@SueC, *horses have taught me far more about people than F-4s and F-111s ever did! Including who I am and who I want to become*. My pastor rolls his eyes when I say it, but horses have also taught me about how I believe God interacts with humans. And how a father should work with many sorts of kids, or a teacher with pupils.

"What Horses Have Taught Me About God and Moral Behavior"! I'm not sure if it would be pretentious or too common. But...I find horses challenge my honesty and challenge me to become honest. They see thru my pretenses.

And no good horseman can become a good horseman without learning to LISTEN. When your horse is spinning around on a paved road, nearly mad with fear over something she really didn't need to be afraid of, a fellow comes to realize he should have been listening better and sooner!

Mia and Bandit - spent $1200 on Mia and swapped her for Bandit - have taught me far more about leadership than anything I did or saw in 25 years in the military, including Squadron Officer School and Air Command and Staff College. I've worked for enough Colonels and Generals in the US Air Force to suspect most of them couldn't even LEAD a horse to water, let alone get the horse to drink! What Moyra Williams wrote in 1960 resonates:



> ...Ridden by neck-aids, the horse is a free individual. It cannot be forced. It can not be controlled, but it can and does have to be guided. It has to have everything explained to it, and its cooperation has then to be won over. If it is asked to do anything absurd, it will merely say, "This fool rider does not know what he is talking about," and go its own way. It is hopeless to try riding by neck-aids until one has learnt the horse's language...
> 
> ...As soon as a person is prepared to follow his horse, his seat will come automatically. His only problem then is the eternal one of the educationalist and the politician - that of getting what he wants out of his subject. This is an art, not a technique; it is a skill, not a science. When to give in, when to press forward; when to exert authority and when to withdraw it - these are moments whose recognition cannot be taught by rule of thumb. They can only be recognized by the sympathetic - by the person who is not entirely engrossed in his own welfare. Only two laws can, I think, be said to hold for all occasions. The first is "Know your goal before you set out", for the unguided horse, like the mass of human beings, will go nowhere if left to itself. The second is "Don't give orders without a reason".


Looking back on my 25 years in the military, I think "*Know your goal before you set out*" should be tattooed on the left forearm of every officer, and "*Don't give orders without a reason*" tattooed on the right forearm! And then officers should be required to wear short sleeves...:rofl:

Except...it really isn't funny! I doubt I spent more than 10% of my time working for someone who understood those rules. In my defense, for all my faults as an officer, I was better than most in following them. But you then run into another bit of reality: Following those rules will NOT get you promoted!


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## SueC

It's interesting you should say that... because working with horses as a child and young person taught me more about working with people and teaching than the Grad.Dip.Ed. I did before entering a classroom. And my Dip.Ed. people were pretty good! Horses teach you decency, and listening, and give you a good social radar. Horses teach you that you can learn more from your students than they're going to learn from you, but because of that, you'll also teach them more than you could have otherwise. Horses teach you to stand beside them when working through a problem, not stand above them... if you'll _listen_.

Because the army is so hierarchical and about following orders rather than having discourse and cooperating accordingly, I didn't expect that would be very useful in transferring to dealing with people authentically in environments where there is more equality, or in dealing with animals, especially sensitive, intelligent ones. But, I did think the _planes_ might teach a person a thing or two about life? Or should that be, the _flying_ of them? Learning to fly them? The very real risk of dying if you make a mistake? Or if someone tries to shoot you down?

Love the Moyra Williams quote. Good horse _training_ books can do better at teaching people horses aren't robots, than horse riding books can, in general... e.g. Tom Roberts saying, "This is what it looks like from the horse's point of view. Start looking from the horse's point of view." It's about listening, and teamwork - not about ordering and obeying. Which is why I was like this: mg: ...when I first turned up on HF in the days it was densely populated with "order and obey" type people... :rofl:


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## Knave

I agree with both of you completely! I have learned so much about God and faith through horses. How I ask a horse to do something that he doesn’t understand, or how he becomes afraid of something so simple if he wasn’t afraid, but so big when he is... granted, unlike God we can be wrong, but to have Him looking down and to still be so afraid... The horse is like me, looking at irrelevant things in the day’s journey, and focusing worry on something that won’t possibly come into play except in worry.

I have learned so much about everything through horses.


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## SueC

If we're going to talk Christianity, then Jesus was rather notable for walking the talk, for leading by example, and not expecting others to follow arbitrary rules just because they were there, while not following them himself. He had no time at all for stupid rules, and went out of his way not to be constrained by them. He tended to apply the blowtorch in his speeches to people in authority who abused it, and were hypocritical, and came from an "I'm more important / bigger than you, you worm" position in life. And went personally to the biggest, scariest rubbish bin in life - death - instead of just telling us to wear it.

He also had a thing or two to say about being a servant if you would be a leader, and of laying down your life for your sheep etc.

PS: :wave: to your pastor, @bsms! :charge: :falloff: :rofl:


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## SueC

...I just found this clip, and thought it was excellent to put into this discussion:






I completely agree with her. She's a biologist and distance / endurance rider, and animal behaviour specialist, who wrote one of my favourite books on horse behaviour:

https://www.booksonhorses.com.au/pr...-watch-what-it-is-to-be-equine-9780851318882/


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## bsms

Note from a history buff. This took place on the third day of the battle at Gettysburg, after the failure of Pickett's Charge, as told by a British officer who observed the battle:

"_Notwithstanding the misfortune which had so suddenly befallen him, General Lee seemed to observe everything, however trivial. When a mounted officer began kicking his horse for shying at the bursting of a shell, he called out, "*Don’t whip him, Captain; don’t whip him. I’ve got just such another foolish horse myself, and whipping does no good.*_”

https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet.dli.2015.226367/2015.226367.Three-Months_djvu.txt

Another officer commented on this after reading Freemantle's account:

"_Note. -- In Fremantle's account he tells of General Lee's reproving an artillery officer for spurring his horse severely when it shied at the bursting of a shell. The officer was my ordnance officer and acting adjutant, Lieutenant F.M. Colston, now of Baltimore, and the shying was not at the bursting of a shell, but, just at that time there was a loud cheering in the enemy's line, a little on the right, and General Lee requested Colston to ride towards it and discover if it indicated an advance. Colston's horse cut up because it did not want to leave my horse, the two being together a great deal on the march and in the camp. General Lee then spoke to him, as Fremantle narrates; and the cheering turned out to be given to some general officer riding along the Federal line._"

https://www.battlefields.org/learn/primary-sources/e-p-alexander-gettysburg

One of my pet peeves is the idea that good horsemanship began with "Natural Horsemanship". There have always been excellent riders, who may or may not have been any good at working with horses. There have also been folks who were excellent at working with horses. Interestingly, both Gen Grant and Gen Lee were admired for their ability, not just as riders, but as teachers of their horses. Very different men and obviously on opposite sides, but both good with horses. 

I'll add that both as men and as generals, neither was as good as some claimed they were nor as bad as others make them out to be. Like most men, they did both good and evil. Both were exceptional generals at times and yet also had very bad days and battles. But...from my reading, they both seemed close to my ideal in how they handled horses.


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## Knave

Have you read “Half-Broke Horses”? I think that you would enjoy it. I really did anyways.


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## bsms

Knave said:


> Have you read “Half-Broke Horses”?


No, but $5.39 later via Amazon, a bookstore in Utah is mailing me a hardbound copy...and the price includes shipping! I've read "No Life for a Lady" by Agnes Morley Cleaveland. She was born in 1874 in New Mexico & grew up riding and roping sidesaddle.

From a review on Amazon (to save me typing & because I read it some years ago & am fuzzy on the details):

"_Growing up on horseback, she and her brother...essentially ran the ranch themselves from the age of 11 or so, with the help of some hands, their hopelessly befuddled, widowed mother...Growing up on horseback, Agnes was not a tomboy in any sense of the word, but just naturally developed all the same riding, roping and other ranching skills as the men, with the possible exception of some feats of brute strength, like wrestling a huge animal to the ground...She worked side-by-side with the men, and no leniency was afforded her.._."

My vague memory of it is that it dragged in some places, but overall I enjoyed it. I plan to order "In the Days of Victorio; Recollections of a Warm Springs Apache" soon. There are a half-dozen books on the Apaches in New Mexico and Arizona that I'd like to read. Unfortunately, most are unpopular enough that they are only in hardback and run $30+ used.


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## Knave

I haven’t read that one! I will have to give it a try!

I really liked Half-Broke Horses, but there are moments her personality is a bit much, like Scarlett O’Hara almost. It doesn’t drag ever though.


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## updownrider

As a history buff, I wonder if you have read Traveller. He was General Lee’s horse, and this is his story of the war as told to a cat. It’s not as silly as it sounds, and actually quite wonderful, although sad at times. The author, Richard Adams, also wrote Watership Down. 

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00Q8KXQUM/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1


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## bsms

I haven't, @updownrider, but I'll see if I can add it to my next order. The books are piling up and my wife will get upset if they keep arriving faster than I can read them!

Today's mail included Reading the Man: A Portrait of Robert E. Lee Through His Private Letters by Elizabeth Brown Pryor. Skimmed a little of it. There was a Pulitzer Prize winning 4-volume biography of Lee written in the 30s by a guy who saluted a statue of Lee every time he passed it in the public square - no bias there! :rofl: For 50 years, it was THE STANDARD biography of Lee, until some historians began to ask questions. The Marble Man, written in 1978, began to challenge the image. I finished it last month.

Skimming thru it, "Reading the Man" is based largely on letters Lee & his family wrote. That is important. I'm not sure a single autobiography from the Civil War was written honestly. And almost every biography written in the decades after the Civil War had a political motive behind it. That is true on both sides!

There is a page I would like to transcribe and post sometime. It dealt with his experience managing Arlington - his wife's estate - and how he treated the slaves on the estate. The chapter ends pointing out that if someone is totally under your control, they may smile and be polite on the outside while despising or hating you on the inside. Now...horses are not humans. If my horses could live on endless prairie with no predators, endless springtime and endless grass, they'd leave me in a heartbeat. But if the choice is between my corral and the Sonoran Desert, I'm 100% certain they would choose my corral. 

Still, the passage reminded me that a horse can offer obedience because he has no realistic choice, or because he trusts your ideas to be fair and even pleasing. Outwardly, it may look the same. Close to the same, at least. But vastly different!

It is like passing a potentially scary object. If a horse isn't afraid, passing it with slack reins is a piece of cake. To the extent I need to tighten the reins, sit firmer and be more directive, my horse is submitting. If the point of the exercise is to finish saying, "See, you silly fellow, there was no danger at all", then it is fine. A learning experience. But tension comes when and to the extent trust leaves!

Maybe it is my personality, or being a military brat, or having spent 25 years in the military, but I find it instinctive to take control. I'm glad I wasn't born to wealth in the South of the 1840s. I don't think I would like the person I would have become. Horses challenge me to become someone else. To seek their willing cooperation, and not be satisfied if I can just gain their submission. That may be their greatest gift to me. Maybe. But they have helped me with anger management and a few other issues as well....:thumbsup:


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## gottatrot

updownrider said:


> As a history buff, I wonder if you have read Traveller. He was General Lee’s horse, and this is his story of the war as told to a cat. It’s not as silly as it sounds, and actually quite wonderful, although sad at times. The author, Richard Adams, also wrote Watership Down.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00Q8KXQUM/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1


I liked Traveller too.


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## bsms

My wife walked Trooper again while I rode. We initially were going to drop down into the narrow wash, but I spotted this on the slope down:








He (or she, mustn't be sexist!) was sunning. Not moving an inch. So...I decided rather than ask Bandit to jump over a rattlesnake on a descent, we'd...just go a different route. In fact, I have yet to ask Bandit to jump over a rattlesnake. Just a woosie, I guess! I don't think Bandit spotted the snake, but that is why one must keep one's eyes open when riding or jogging in the desert. AND why if Bandit says he won't push thru some brush, I listen!

Bandit behaved beautifully all day. Just as solid as anyone could ask for. We separated a few hundred yards from Trooper several times without him complaining, although we didn't press things because I didn't want my wife to have to deal with Trooper if HE panicked. But Trooper was quite content to be led. I cantered Bandit up a small hill and asked him to stop next to a patch of grass. He cantered without hesitation and seemed to appreciate my suggestion to stop and grab a few bites while Trooper and my wife jogged to catch up. The wife said Trooper would have been content to STROLL our way, but she insisted on jogging.

The next two were on our way home. 

















It is right at 4 years since I got Bandit. He's turned into a pretty trustworthy horse. The sun is getting stronger and I just didn't feel like wearing a helmet. Even in the desert. Bandit may get fussy sometimes, but he just doesn't lose his mind. Unlike Mia. Trust is a two-way street, and we are getting pretty comfortable with each other. Although he has much better sole depth, he still found some spots ouchy. So I'll do some arena riding in his boots and try him again with super feet. I think he will like them. Eventually.

One more picture my wife took from ground level:


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## bsms

Three more pictures of today's ride. First, an ear shot when I spotted the rattlesnake:








Second, an over-the-shoulder picture of my wife & Trooper. I don't think my wife was bowing to Trooper. I'm guessing...rock in shoe?








Third was at the end of ride, with my wife and Trooper. They are beginning to feel comfortable with each other:


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## SueC

Beautiful photos!


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## whisperbaby22

Yea, from your other photo I can see right where the snake is.


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## bsms

Didn't get any riding done today. Went for a run in the morning. thought I'd wait until the afternoon to ride, but the winds kicked up in the afternoon and I was lazy. Still, there is more than one way to enjoy horses:

















Dry lot corrals aren't the best life for horses, but these three don't seem too concerned. I suspect a lot of horses are pretty content if they can live low stress. There is just something about sunset, the end of the day and horses eating that is relaxing. The chickens are wandering the yard right now. In 15 minutes, they will return to their roost and call the day done. I'm going to go join them in the backyard, collect a few eggs, and wait to shut the door behind them.


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## bsms

All three are messy eaters. That is what is nice about long stem bermuda hay. They can eat it off the ground and not get sand colic.








It was getting dark. The last hen finally realized she was the only one left outside, and so she hurried in! Dark enough the photo blurred. Picked up 5 eggs tonight. I shut and locked the gate behind her. Coyotes, skunks and owls will make short work of chickens if left untended. Like the horses, the chickens are good evening companions. Beats the heck out of watching TV. An hour spent hanging out with the livestock is NOT an hour wasted!


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## gottatrot

I was around chickens tonight too. We took Nala and Hero to a nearby boarding facility that had arenas to ride in. There were chickens running around everywhere, which at first gave the horses a lot to think about but then they got used to it. The chickens were rather entertaining, they have their own world going on. There was a bucket near where I tied Hero, which was full of cracked corn for the chickens. I discovered that after Hero took a big mouthful.


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## SueC

Your horses might be on a dry lot, @bsms, but they're in a social situation and have a good view of things happening elsewhere, and they do go out exploring with you - so that's streets ahead of horses boxed 24/7 and only out in the arena or an occasional trail, or even horses boxed at night and on daytime turnout to dry lots.

I had no idea skunks ate chickens!

How is your foot, has it healed up better now?

@gottatrot, I've got a feeling @Knave's horse Bones would be trying to herd these chickens! :rofl:


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## egrogan

We call it “chicken tv” @bsms :grin:

I miss all my animals when I’m on the road for work, but I find I really crave the time catching up with “my girls” and hearing all their little stories in the morning when I’m doing chores.


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## bsms

*Sorry for the rant that follows*

My foot is getting better @SueC provided I don't wear anything with an arch support. An insole with arch support will have my foot aching within 2 days. I know because I just ops checked it again...stupid me! The medical people and Dr Scholl all say the best thing for plantar fasciitis is arch support, and that is what correlates best to my foot getting sore. It feeds my increasing distrust of experts. And my belief that most things biological are far more complex than we realize. 

-----------------rant concerning experts and diet follows-------------------​
My diet, so far at least, is going well. I've lost 4 lbs in 3 weeks, so it certainly isn't an extreme diet. After some morning headaches the first few days, my body got used to it and I now have no problem doing all my eating between noon and 6 PM. I find I am eating less. Probably 2/3 as much as before. And not missing the difference. I can feel hunger pangs by 10 AM but went past 1 to eat yesterday because I was busy and just didn't think about it. But it will take months to decide if this really works for me.

If nothing else, it is the easiest approach to dieting I've tried. No rules about what to eat, or how much. But I am finding I don't crave sweet things like I did. And as a long time Diet Coke addict, drinking 6-8 cans a day...I'm down to 1-2 cans a day, and may end up kicking the habit just because I don't want to drink it as much. Drinking more water and tea just because it is what I find myself wanting to drink. If kicking the Diet Coke habit is the only result of the diet I'm trying, it will be worth it.

I think there really is something to the idea that weight issues are as much about cravings versus being hungry. That those of us struggling with weight do so because our bodies have hormonal cravings instead of actual hunger, and spending time actually hungry adjusts our hormones and thus affect what things we want to eat (or drink) - and how much. It is at least an intriguing concept for someone who was a very fat baby and who has struggled with weight for 60 years!

I came across this the other day:

"_Broadly speaking, we eat a lot more than we used to: The average American consumed 2,481 calories a day in 2010, about 23% more than in 1970...

Nearly half of those calories come from just two food groups: flours and grains (581 calories, or 23.4%) and fats and oils (575, or 23.2%), up from a combined 37.3% in 1970. Meats, dairy and sweeteners provide smaller shares of our daily caloric intake than they did four decades ago; then again, so do fruits and vegetables (7.9% in 2010 versus 9.2% in 1970)...

...Most of the fats we consume are in the form of vegetable oils: soybean, corn, canola and other oils used as ingredients or in which foods are cooked._”

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-ta...w-americas-diet-has-changed-over-the-decades/

It explains a lot - if we consume 23% more calories than in 1970, we would expect to look around and see a lot more overweight people - and yet it doesn't answer WHY we eat more. There is an interesting (to me) discussion of genetics here:

Researchers Learn More About Complex Genetic Causes of Obesity | DiscoverMagazine.com

It includes a full discussion of this:

"_In addition, IRS1 variant A was inhibiting the expansion of fat tissue. With no place to go, more fat was hanging around in the blood, causing health issues. On the other hand, those with IRS1 variant B were able to easily expand their fat tissue. So they were a little chubbier because the fats in the blood went where they belonged — into fat._"

That might explain why my aunts and uncles all got fat and yet lived into their late 80s or 90s. However, the article also mentions this:

"_Eventually, analysis of DNA from the Pima suggested that they have variations on certain chromosomes that are linked to fatness. Thanks to their genetic inheritance, their bodies are storing away calories, anticipating a famine that never comes.

We can’t change our genes, but science is learning that we can influence how they affect our health..._"

The article mentions it as something like a curse: If you have a thrifty gene, you are very likely to end up fat. But maybe this sentence reveals something: "_anticipating a famine that never comes_." Maybe those of us who can gain weight by breathing deeply while passing a bakery need to experience some "famine".

Sorry for the rant, and I don't know how much of what I've written is actually true. I will admit I get ****ed when slender people tell me I lack willpower when I have enough willpower to run in 100 degree heat, or to have been on strict diets many times in my life. I've worked to control my weight and with some success. I'm certainly not huge. My build now is positively slender compared to what I looked like at 10 years old! But...what if the diet advice I've had from the government and doctors for the last 50 years - "*calories in, calories out*" - has been fundamentally wrong?

:think:​


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## bsms

egrogan said:


> We call it “chicken tv” @bsms :grin:
> ...


I think having animals around us, including outdoor animals like chickens, may add some sanity to our lives. "Chicken TV" isn't what I would want to watch for 6 hours - and neither is any TV - but “chicken tv” may add something to our lives, much in the way hanging out with horses can. I think it adds some balance to our lives.


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## Knave

I don’t think you lack willpower. I think, like your research shows, people are made differently. I don’t think I could run in 100 degrees, and I know I couldn’t follow the diet you are on. My friend told me about it too, but the whole thought just makes me panicky. 

I get that shaky, I am going to pass out, feeling when I don’t eat or eat the wrong thing. I very much make sure I’ve eaten some protein before I go do anything that will keep me away from the house. Working I take protein powder mixed, and I drink it around 9ish so that I can manage until lunch, and of course I eat breakfast.

I seem to do better in the afternoons, but mornings I guess my body is touchy about it. I have had that happen in the afternoon, but not commonly. 

We did a diet together for a month. My husband lost 30 pounds, and I gained it! It was crazy how differently we reacted. Gaining is good for me though, and losing for him. He had tried several before, to the point of half starving himself, but they never did any good and I didn’t approve of the ideas. This one I did though. I said “Let’s not eat anything processed for a month.”

I was serious about it too, and he followed suite. We both were so much healthier.


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## tinyliny

There is a lot of focus on the benefits of intermitten fasting. While that word usually applies to eating one day, not the next, etc. I do agree with you that going for extended hours without eating is good for the human body. I think you are on to something when you say that it resets your body to recognize hunger, verses cravings. The old idea of eating many small meals does not work for a person, like me, who has an unhealthy mental relationship with food, and overeating. The 'gaps' between meals need to be long enough to have some substance in and of themselves, mentally.


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## bsms

tinyliny said:


> ...a person, like me, who has an unhealthy mental relationship with food, and overeating...


That describes me, too. Not my sister, though we were raised in the same home. I'm finding at around 8 pm, I'll have some cravings for food. I just have to ignore them and the cravings go away around 9 pm. And I'm then good to go through noon the next day. So my craving food is something not based on need. It starts to make sense though in terms of habit - my wife and I often have snacked on a small cup of ice cream around then - or maybe in terms of hormone, insulin, or blood sugar, or...something not related to actual hunger.

It is 11 AM. I rode Bandit in his boots for half an hour, then led him thru the neighborhood and desert for 40 minutes. Plenty of uneven ground to get him used to how to move his feet with boots on. At 11 AM, after exercise, I feel a little hungry. But zero "craving". If I was busy, I could go until 5 pm without much effort. I'd be genuinely hungry by then, though!

My sister never had a weight problem. I've always had one. Genes are probably part of it. But with MY genes, maybe I need to experience some degree of hunger to get past the cravings.

There is also some interesting research suggesting the sweetness in Diet Coke can fool our bodies, and maybe - the research so far was done in mice - that the acid in Diet Coke affects the bacteria in our guts, and that in turn affects how our body digests food. My hungry times seems to be resetting how my body tastes "sweet". If the only thing this does is get me off of drinking 6-8 Diet Cokes a day, my wallet, teeth and gut bacteria may all thank me! Water & tea would be sooooo much better for me!

PS: Back to horses. I recently bought a Cold Steel "Recon 1" knife. It is 5 3/8 inches long closed. It was in my back pocket (folded!) all ride long and I never felt it. I think it is safe to say this oddball western rider just doesn't ride much on his pockets. Internet picture:


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## whisperbaby22

I have breakfast around 7 am, so I eat dinner around 4 or 5 the evening before. That's just what I am comfortable with. I do have to be firm when asked to dinner at 8. Saying that I am on medication and can only have tea helps. But so many people eat such a large meal before bed. That is part of the problem.


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## tinyliny

you are SO not overweight, @bsms!!! I'd LOVE to be as trim as you.


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## gottatrot

That knife looks like it could come in handy on the trail.

Maybe one of the biggest problems with dieting is that it's like horse training. So many people are trying to fit generalized ideas and solutions on individuals, but everyone is different. It doesn't work to follow everything a certain guru trainer says, because what might work for one horse won't work for another. Same with diet programs. Everyone needs to find out what works for them.

I think it must be healthy for everyone to understand and recognize what hunger feels like. Even for thin people, this can be a problem. I've mentioned before that since I have dealt with anorexia, I trained my mind to not recognize hunger, and so when my stomach cramps, or I feel woozy, tired and have no energy, my first thoughts are that I'm getting sick or need to rest, not that I need food. 

I also was a Diet Coke drinker, for many years. My mom was always trying to get me to quit, talking about the research you discussed that the sweetness could be fooling our bodies and causing obesity. I'd always laugh at her and ask her if she thought I needed to lose weight. But I tried quitting several years ago, sort of on a whim, and I discovered that the artificial sweeteners had apparently been making me irritable. I hadn't realized it, but I could tell my mood was much more stable when I was off the diet pop. Now I only drink it rarely. 

My dad has been doing intermittent fasting for awhile, on Mondays. My mom complains that he just eats double on Tuesday, but he is looking good and feels healthy. He's 83 and has been out clamming on the beach a couple times this week.


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## SueC

I have been following that fat loss discussion with interest and wanted to present you with a weird case study: Me. At least, according to a GP I talked about it once, I'm "...one of _those_, a friend of mine is doing a study on your sort up in Perth, would you like to be a subject?" I'd have jumped at it had I lived in Perth, but an 800km round trip on a regular basis was going to be too tough.

Basically, I've observed, all of my life but even more so towards middle age, that I can't readily access my fat reserves (/ possibly my glycogen reserves) for extra calories if I'm sedentary or only lightly active and skipping food during such low levels of activity. I've never been able to do the 24-hour famine at school, etc. What happens when I fast during low activity levels is that I get hypoglycaemia symptoms: I feel weak, get nauseated, trembly, experience brain fog and coordination problems, and more often than not, since my 30s, end up with a shocking migraine on top of the rest of it. So, it's important for me to eat about 5 times a day, healthy stuff and with bits of quality protein throughout, when I'm not super-active - basically to graze - and that's how I stay level.

I've had blood tests during those episodes and they confirmed I was borderline hypoglycaemic when that happens. We checked out my pancreatic function, but that was ostensibly normal - I'm not diabetic, and not pre-diabetic. Still, another thing that happens to me that doesn't seem to happen to most people is that I really can't tolerate high levels of sugar, especially on an empty stomach. They actually taste disgusting to me - it makes me feel ill to contemplate eating sugary icing, the same way it makes me feel ill to contemplate eating a lump of lard. I'm sure that's not just a mental thing, but that it's rooted in physiology - my body is saying, "Don't do this, it's not good for you." ...which is not the same as, for instance, not liking the taste of pineapple or of stuffed capsicum - I could make myself eat these things if nothing else was available, and am pretty sure I wouldn't get in too much trouble as a result.

A few years ago, we bought some commercial iced coffees at a mall coffee chain, and I had a disgust response at the sky-high level of sugar in my drink. It was at least twice as sweet as the already over-sweetened dairy drinks sold in cartons - it was really shocking. But, I was also really thirsty, and really annoyed to have spent $5 on a drink that my body was saying it didn't want. I said to Brett, "I'll drink it because it's a waste of money and resources to throw it away, but never again, I swear!" And I drank the stuff - it took me about 10 minutes to force myself to do it - and when I got up, I nearly blacked out, broke out in a cold sweat, and felt like I was spinning. I could not walk in a straight line. My doctor thinks it was hypoglycaemia brought on by an emergency response by the pancreas to ridiculously high sugar levels - basically crashing the sugar levels down trying to stop them from spiking. He said, "How convenient that you have a body that's telling you to avoid this rubbish, rather than craving it!" I've learnt that I will never eat or drink anything over-sugary again, no matter that it's already bought or who bought it... 

So to function optimally, I graze - eat about five times a day, and not huge amounts at a time, generally - and try to include quality protein at each meal. During low activity levels, I will get into trouble if I do not pay attention to this.

Yet during moderate to strenuous exercise, I never get these symptoms, and I also know my body is accessing the fat reserves then (as well as the glycogen), because I can always feel the difference in the pinch test over the abdomen after half a day of intense uphill-downhill bushwalking. The big question, and the one that researcher was trying to find out, is why I can access fat reserves fine in those situations, but not when my body isn't under significant load.

What this means, in practical terms, is that I'm the sort of person who'd have great trouble getting rid of fat by fasting or by restricting calorie intake - my metabolic rate drops if I don't graze - I'm the sort who needs to _exercise_ it off.

And that's what I've quite spontaneously done most of my life - felt the need to move. I was also a great fidget as a young person. Our national treasure, Dr Karl, has shown why and how fidgeting helps keep people trim:

https://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/1999/10/05/56899.htm

https://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/1999/07/21/38121.htm

...basically, I'm a bit like a highly strung horse. I started out underweight as a child and with failure to thrive, and didn't come out of childhood with many fat cells. How much of that was growing up wired by cPTSD is speculation, but I'm sure it played a role.

I am too asleep to edit this, and check if I've drifted off course or said incoherent things - and I know there'll be things I've forgotten. I'll try again tomorrow! 
I'm actually falling asleep... :ZZZ: Late night last night, and just had dinner, and much blood has been requisitioned by my stomach. I hope this post makes sense! 

But anyway, fasting works for some people and not for others. Lots of people at Brett's workplace are doing calorie restriction for at least a few days each week and are mostly having good results, losing around half a kilogram a week, which is great if you're trying to kick out the fat in a sustainable manner.

One complicating factor is the idea that "At 40, you get to choose between your face and your posterior." Well, for me, my face and the round thing that wants to nest around my navel - the posterior never puts on weight.

And while we're on this, isn't it interesting how this abdominal fat distribution pattern is a bit like the Cushings pattern in humans.


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## bsms

I agree things vary. There is a guy in church who is a little older than me. He's never been on or needed a diet in his life. He's obviously not a candidate for fasting.

The one article I linked to discussed some people with a gene that causes fat stored in the cells to tend to STAY in the cells. These people can be quite fat and yet have no heart problems, at least not blood based heart problems. That could explain some of my aunts and uncles, who got fat but didn't have heart attacks or strokes. And who found it very hard to lose fat. My Mom stayed healthy, in terms of being able to be active and clear thinking, while walking 4 miles every morning. About 80, the metal pins in her ankle for a car accident 60 years earlier came out. Essentially, her ankle disintegrated while she was out on a walk. A neighbor saw her, took her to the hospital, but she had to give up her morning walks and her health went over the cliff.

But just like many horse trainers have a one size fits all approach to horses, the US government and American Heart Association and others have pushed a simplistic solution on everyone for 50 years. Here is what the AHA says:



> *It’s not as hard as you may think*[:evil:]...Make the simple steps below part of your life for long-term benefits to your health and your heart.
> 
> Use up at least as many calories as you take in.
> 
> ...You may need fewer or more calories depending on several factors including age, gender, and level of physical activity.
> 
> If you are trying not to gain weight, don’t eat more calories than you know you can burn up every day.
> 
> Increase the amount and intensity of your physical activity to burn more calories...
> 
> ...Limit saturated fat, trans fat, sodium, red meat, sweets and sugar-sweetened beverages. If you choose to eat red meat, compare labels and select the leanest cuts available....
> 
> ...Eat a variety of fresh, frozen and canned vegetables and fruits without high-calorie sauces or added salt and sugars. Replace high-calorie foods with fruits and vegetables. Choose fiber-rich whole grains for most grain servings...If you choose to eat meat, look for the leanest cuts available....Select fat-free (skim) and low-fat (1%) dairy products."
> 
> https://www.heart.org/en/healthy-li...basics/aha-diet-and-lifestyle-recommendations


See? It is SIMPLE! No excuses! All it takes is a little willpower and avoiding any trace of fat in your diet! 

My Mom periodically went on 600-800 calorie a day diets. I guess that might be a form of intermittent fasting. It certainly indicates she had will power! Meanwhile, one of my uncles ate lard and was lean as a rail. I'm sure being a farmer had something to do with it! But another uncle who was a farmer avoided fatty foods and gained weight. And like so many experts, dieticians look at that and don't see anything that makes them go "Hmmmmmm..."

I've lost weight on low fat diets. I lose it easier on high fat diets. Sorry, AHA! The studies I've seen indicate cheese can be positively GOOD for you when eaten moderately. I don't know if the diet I'm on now will work over the long haul. But FOR ME, it is the easiest diet I've tried. And for now, I'm losing weight and my pants are getting looser. And according to the American Heart Association, I'm doing it wrong!

Oh well.

It is like when I was told all I needed to do to make Mia totally confident was get a bigger whip. Or to sing when I felt nervous. Or that my horse should push through brush and drop into a wash without any hesitation because he feels such total confidence in me! And I now know enough to say folks giving me that advice had never met a horse like Mia or like Bandit. Darn it, I *love* Bandit's self-possession! 

The Horse Who Thinks :Angel::








​


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## SueC

That's a lovely picture! 

The low-fat thing is now generally becoming viewed as having failed. I never took it up - I've always done full-fat dairy, olive oil, canola oil for the odd bit of high-temperature cooking, lots of different nuts (and my cholesterol profile is really good - lots of protective, below-average "bad"). I don't like eating fatty meat - I just have a _bleh_ response to that - so go for leaner cuts, or kangaroo, which is really lean. It's a serious problem that farm animals are getting fattened before slaughter - it's not good for the animals or for the people who eat them, and it's terribly wasteful of the resources that go into putting the excess fat on the animals. Also, there's the issue that pesticides etc are bioamplified into body fats - I imagine that's more of a problem with eating fatty meat than fatty dairy, because the dairy cows are cranking out the dairy fat continuously, so will cause comparative dilution (but still a source).

Atkins etc critiqued that whole "avoid fat" thing, and while I agree with some of his points, I think he's too extreme. I don't think food should be a religion, or a PhD, it should simply be choosing sensibly from healthy ingredients, and avoiding processed foods. And that's pretty much all we do here - eat like people on the land with their own F&V gardens did for centuries - our own garden produce, plus lean-ish meat and fish, a fair amount of free-range eggs, legumes, wholegrain flour etc (which is still carbohydrate, so I still cut back on it when I'm writing for a day rather than planting trees). But with food, I'm looking _for_ nutrition - for vitamins, antioxidants, minerals, essential fatty acids, essential amino acids, etc etc - rather than _avoiding_ foods for being calorie dense. Nuts are calorie dense, but also nutrient dense and good for you, and I get a whole lot of satiety from having a platter with a few bit of cheese, a handful of walnuts, a sliced apple and maybe a cracker or two (depending on activity levels) for morning tea. I wouldn't have the same satiety from ten donuts (believe me, I've tried, as a young person :rofl, but would have quadruple the calories with less than 5% of the nutrition that way...

I'm finding that putting the things you're going to eat on a plate is much better than, say, sitting down with a packet of nuts, because you can unwittingly eat half the packet when you don't really need it.

Basically, my weight management is keeping the fat off, and arguing with about 3-5kg of fat that I don't really need to have - an argument that is best addressed for me by getting on my bicycle or walking in the mountains.

The most fat I ever put on in a short time was around 5-6 kg in three months when I was working in London in my mid-20s. The share house kitchen was shockingly unhygienic and stacked with dishes that literally had rotting food on them, and there was no way I was going to change the habits of the other three girls I was sharing with. So, I decided the toaster was the one safe thing to use in that kitchen, and I lived mostly off toasted wholemeal pita bread with hummous, and Sainsbury's Strawberry Trifles, and fresh fruit, plus raw vegies like carrots, capsicum, tomatoes, celery cut into easy-eat shapes, and Ryvita with avocado and tinned tuna. My big weaknesses were McVites Chocolate Digestive biscuits (wholemeal, but still), and fresh strawberry donuts (English donuts aren't excessively sugary, and have real jam inside, made with actual fruit and not overly sugary) - and I was cold a lot, and eating to stay warm.

When I got back to Australia, it took me three months of running on the beach to shed those five kilograms. If I'd stayed there a year, I probably would have come back with 20kg extra...


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## Knave

I was heavy once myself, but it was when I got pregnant with my first and following that. People were so rude! I got told I looked like a sheep tick and also when I was four months pregnant that I should be due any day. Lol. “Oh, it must be twins!” was a common response to my look. 

I wasn’t used to being heavy, so I guess I didn’t put any stock into it. Pregnant means you gain weight, what did they know right? Well, I made eight months pregnant on the dot when I had my oldest, and I had gained 90 pounds. All the sudden I had a complex. “Okay, I had the baby, why am I not skinny again?” So I was weird about it for a couple months; I took my measurements and I ran. 

Then I got pregnant with baby #2, and I was really sick. I made it to about a week before eight months when I had her. I weighed less than when I got pregnant walking out of the hospital. The nurse scolded me, “It is important to gain weight when you are pregnant, and it’s not natural to wear your jeans out. Didn’t you worry about the health of your baby?” 

I don’t handle criticism too well, making myself small, and I meekly explained that I had been terribly sick, throwing up blood every day and at the doctor’s often. “Oh, I guess that can explain it,” she walked away.

Either way it can be difficult, being heavy or being thin. I was teased all throughout school that I was bulimic and ugly, and why not eat a hamburger. They never noticed I ate more than any of them, and so I started to wear too big of clothes to try and look heavier.

It is odd the complexes we give each other. Dieting seems to create more of them. I read what bsms writes, and how he must justify that he does indeed have willpower. Is that the message that is sent into the world? I don’t understand why we are blind to the fact that we are supposed to all be different. 

My mother eats nothing but junk. I am not kidding either. Sugar is her mainstay. She is healthy and good looking, and I have no idea how that works. If I eat sugar I get migraines bad and start losing weight. I can simply look at my family and see different people need different things. I am pretty sure anyone can see that if they look around themselves.


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## SueC

It's horrible how people are nasty to other people about appearances etc - "too fat", "too thin", "big nose", "slit eyes" etc etc. As if it's anybody's business what another person looks like. Shaming over appearance seemed to be an international pastime when I was growing up - I saw it in Europe, and I saw it in Australia. Of course, broadly, bullies bully about any type of being different, because they feel better about themselves when they can denigrate someone else.

I'm sorry people were so thoughtless, @Knave, and @bsms - and probably also @gottatrot, did you get rude comments about being skinny? I did! "Oh, do you have worms? Are you anorexic? Do you throw up in the toilets?" I can only imagine how that would feel if you do actually have an eating disorder.

I'm going to look at genetics and lifestyle for weight in our family, but also at appearance shaming. My mother was overweight from her late 30s onwards, and increasingly so with age, and was fat shamed terribly by my (skinny) father, who encouraged my brother and me to join him in fat shaming my mother. He encouraged us to see her as a moral and personal failure, and always made rude comments about her when she was eating - which would have increased her psychological drivers to overeat. He used words like "fat pig" and "fat cow" and "elephant" and also, in German there are two words for eating: _Essen_ is humans eating, _fressen_ is animals eating. If you apply _fressen_ to a human, that's really insulting, the same way it would be if someone said, "Oh, have you just had a shiitake?" if they come back from the toilet. So, my father was frequently using the animal term for my mother eating, and offering to buy her a trough.

I wasn't comfortable with all the abuse in our family; as the youngest, I was the least able to defend myself too. But, my mother was constantly appearance shaming me as well - "Your face looks like a cheese! (she thought I should get a tan) Your hair is like spaghetti! You're slouching! You're a stick! The wind will blow you away! You have monkey arms! You're flat chested! You're a late developer! (when I was 12, 13)" ...she said all of these things, and often, and that was just appearance - she had other terms of insult for my character etc: "You're lazy! You're ungrateful! You're young and stupid! (my father liked using that one too) You're a snot-nose!" ...all thrown with lots of acid. Terms like "stupid cow" and "[email protected]" and "dog" and "b1tch" and "a-hole" were routine everyday terms my parents used on each other and on me. And then there was all the hitting, and kicking, and throwing things, and Chinese burns, and the threatening and the intimidating, and bruises and blood noses, and people fighting with the wood heater poker or other tools or fists, and my mother split a wooden cutting board over my head once, and chased me with broomsticks and kicked my shins blue if she could corner me etc.

So with all of that, as a primary school kid, it sometimes gave me a grim satisfaction to see the discomfort of the people who were hurting me on a regular basis, and sometimes, if I got insulted by my mother, I'd insult her back with the fat-shaming my father was teaching us - and of course, I'd get hit for doing so. Later on, as a teenager, I thought about ethics and what sort of person I wanted to be, and stopped doing that.

I think a lot of this rubbish starts in families, in dysfunctional patterns. You don't necessarily see it looking from the outside - a lot of very dysfunctional families are respected pillars of the community. Mine were, for a long time. A charade gets played in public; it helps if the family has money and social status - as mine did - because then people won't look at them as ungenerously as they do poor people. It doesn't help that people let themselves be impressed by status.

So anyway - in my family of origin, my mother had overweight issues from her 30s and obesity issues from her 40s - and almost certainly linked to depression and other forms of mental/emotional illness. She wasn't a warm, loving mother to me (but wanted to be seen as such), but I think she didn't have any genuine warmth and love in her marriage either - and that cut both ways: They were very good at making life hell for each other, and for me too.

My brother had overweight issues from his 30s, increasing with age. It's hard to say how much is genetics and how much lifestyle, but he didn't exercise and he ate junk, and too much of it, thought vegetables were for rabbits, and also got quite an alcohol habit. My father was relatively lean most of his life, except for a "lifesaver" ring around his waist in his late 30s, which he addressed by eating less and taking up tennis and cross-country skiing. From his 40s, he worked with horses and got plenty of heavy exercise mucking out stables, feeding a dozen or more dry lot / stable horses four times a day, training them, and repairing all the fences etc.

My mother's take is that she's got the fat genes (her mother was the same), as does my brother, but that my father has thin genes and passed them onto me. I don't think it's that simple, because in that group of people, all the people who ended up overweight hated exercise and overate on junk foods, and the two people who didn't are highly physically active. Unless we're going to stipulate that an exercise-loathing gene exists... I do know that if I had my mother's or my brother's lifestyle and diet and level of non-exercise, there is no way I would be a healthy person, and I'd certainly have stacked on weight - you can see that it's possible for me just from what happened in England.

I think it's a combination of genes and environment (lifestyle, mental/emotional health etc). It's certainly true that there are "good doers" and "hard keepers" in humans as well as horses, for mainly genetic reasons, I would guess. And fat shaming helps nobody, besides being atrocious manners and indicative of a nasty personality...


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## gottatrot

SueC said:


> I'm sorry people were so thoughtless, @Knave, and @bsms - and probably also @gottatrot, did you get rude comments about being skinny? I did! "Oh, do you have worms? Are you anorexic? Do you throw up in the toilets?" I can only imagine how that would feel if you do actually have an eating disorder.


Yes, but it was bad because those comments are affirming to an anorexic. Someone actually thought you looked thin? When you know you are actually quite fat? It's a state of dichotomy because half of you thinks that perhaps you are thin, since people say you are. The other half measures the fat ripples around the belly button or behind the arm and thinks there is still more to lose. 

People can be extremely rude. The rudest thing I ever heard was when I was a teen, and my mom was pregnant with my little brother at age 40. A stranger told her in the grocery store that her baby would have Down Syndrome because she was so old. 

What I had to learn was that it was up to me to feel good about myself, no matter what others thought. And that health is far more important than appearance. Someone told me I had a big nose as a child, after I'd broken it. After that it felt like my nose was enormous, and it bothered me well into adulthood. What cured me was when I broke it again, and after the doctor straightened it I realized how lucky I was to have a straight nose at all! I'm still learning this, but trying to think of myself as a unique and wonderful creation, just like all the horses. We wouldn't want them all to have the exact same nose, or eyes, and we think some of them are cuter when chunky, and some look elegant and lean. My dog has developed a little pot belly now that he has hypothyroidism, and I think it's adorable. Amore has one too. 
We're all just creatures after all. You all look like beautiful creatures to me, so unique and special. Some of us are quarter horses, some thoroughbreds, and some ponies. Some are even draft horses. It's much better that way.


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## SueC

@gottatrot, I wish to present you with today's "Sublime post" prize!


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## bsms

Fat shaming. I guess I would distinguish between fat SHAMING and fat WARNING. I suspect y'all have noticed I strongly dislike the "Your weight proves you are a morally bad person" approach, which is fat shaming. "He used words like "fat pig" and "fat cow" and "elephant" - @SueC That is fat shaming. My family never took things to that extreme, but I was a very fat kid whose Mom put 3 chocolate chip cookies in every lunch and whose Dad made it clear my weight embarrassed him.

After all, as the American Heart Association says, "_It’s not as hard as you may think...Make the simple steps below part of your life for long-term benefits to your health and your heart._" So...if it isn't in some way "hard", then why do so many of us struggle?

I'm a life long jogger. Not a runner. One thing I really like about runners is that I've never heard an elite runner criticize a jogger, or say, "_Running a 5 minute mile is EASY. Just make a few simple changes..._" The very good runners I've met have all been encouragers, not condemners. That is why I get ****ed off when someone says, "_It's just calories in, calories out. Nothing some will-power won't solve!_" I've had doctors tell me that. And it is how I view the AHA, whose eating recommendations, IMHO, have caused far more obesity than they have solved.

BTW - talked to my sister yesterday. She said she has struggled with weight too. Like me, she finds it easier to lose or control weight with a high fat diet than a low fat one. She also said her standard breakfast for the last 20 years has included 2 eggs. At least a dozen eggs a week and her blood work is fine. NOT for everyone, but eggs are fine for SOME.

So...fat SHAMING is disgusting.

But in America, "fat shaming" is now starting to mean, "_I can be as fat as I want and you should PRAISE me for it!_" To the extent of rejecting any idea of medical consequences. "_Is it my fatness that causes my high blood pressure—or is it my experience of weight stigma?...I come from an exclusively pro-body and anti-diet perspective. This means I will never use food moralism to tell you to replace foods you love with foods you hate. I will never use intentional weight loss as a therapeutic goal. I will never collude with fatphobia in our therapeutic work....I truly believe that a child cannot consent to being on a diet the same way a child cannot consent to having sex..._”

https://quillette.com/2019/04/26/the-sad-truth-about-fat-acceptance/

My wife is visiting my son. He is 6 inches shorter than I am and maybe 40 lbs heavier. She spent yesterday taking his kids all around an aquarium while he sat on a bench. He has knee pain and back pain. But he also rejects any suggestion to diet. "_If I die at 50, I'll die happy at 50!_" As a parent, it is painful to watch. In high school, he ran cross country - slowly, because he is 5'2". But it was a small high school and they needed an extra person on the team. Less than 20 years later, he can't walk around an aquarium with his kids.

Humans always take things to extremes. In horse shows. Dog shows. I understand why the Greeks talked about balance. Humans seem to seek the unbalanced. Fat SHAMING really ****es me off. But when you see your child unable to walk around with your grandkids...:frown_color:

A doctor once told my uncle he needed to lose weight. My uncle replied, "_I go dancing 3 times a week with friends, *and I'm 85*. You should be as lucky!_" If you are fit enough to enjoy life, you are fit enough. If you would really like to be able to run 5 miles again - and I would - then diet may play a part in it. But the diet needs to work for the individual. I'm pretty happy right now with what I'm doing, but my sister said she's a grazer and plans to stay that way. And yes, THAT works well for her.

PS: At 90, my uncle had his leg shattered in an accident. They told him he'd never walk again. A week later, he died in his hospital bed. The family all believes the dance club was what made his life worth living. No good medical reason why he died, apart from just not wanting to live. Good man, though, and a good run at life!

PSS: Worth a repeat:



gottatrot said:


> ...We're all just creatures after all. You all look like beautiful creatures to me, so unique and special. Some of us are quarter horses, some thoroughbreds, and some ponies. Some are even draft horses. It's much better that way.


PSSS: The trainer that worked with Mia told me one of the things horses taught her was to love them for what they were, not for what they could never be. Maybe more people need to hang out with horses.


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## Knave

I get what you are saying. That is what I meant, that we shouldn’t shame anyone.

My husband is beautiful. He is big and strong, and one of those guys that you know could beat someone up. A boxer type I guess. His grandpa was a golden gloves boxer, and he carries that. However, he tends to gain a little weight around his belly, just like most middle aged men.

I do insanity, and I convinced him to do a round with me. He really was fitting up, but he hated insanity. He swore he would never do it again. I try and convince him to work out with me. It’s not because I don’t think he is beautiful. It is because his father died a few years back of a heart attack. He never got to be at his youngest’s wedding or meet his younger grandchildren. He left behind a hole. He wasn’t heavy at all. He was very attractive, like the old cowboys on the movies. He did have a bum hip though, causing him to be less active than he would have been. 

His father also died young of a heart attack. On his mother’s side, the golden gloves boxer died of a heart attack. He was older, but obviously this runs in my husband’s genetics heavily. So, I pressure him occasionally to work out. He laughs at me and refuses. 

So, I get a healthy encouragement for fitness. It would break my heart to see one of my children unable to enjoy an aquarium visit.


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> But in America, "fat shaming" is now starting to mean, "_I can be as fat as I want and you should PRAISE me for it!_" To the extent of rejecting any idea of medical consequences.


Yes, and it makes me sad that many people don't know what it's like to be fit (regardless of size), and have a diminished quality of life because they are so obese. 

As you say, it's the balance. In between the point where your weight is interfering with normal function and causing pain and unhealthiness, and being at an ideal weight, there is a wide range where you can be active and healthy. 

My sister outweighs me by about thirty pounds (we are the same height). However, she is still very healthy, she eats a better diet than I do and is a very serious runner. She does a few half marathons each year, and we run the same pace. Supposedly my BMI is healthy and hers is a bit high. She carries a lot of muscle, and her extra weight does not affect her in any way except for her insecurity about her appearance. Some people see me as too thin. I feel very good and healthy. When I was in Japan, I was fairly average there.
My sister and I basically have the same body, but we wear it differently (I am a year older). Yet I think we're both in the range of healthiness.









In my mind there is a big difference between thinking of your weight and appearance as your worth, versus thinking of it as your health. If your hair is falling out abnormally, it's more important to think about why and take care of your health than it is to think about your appearance. It is the same with weight.
I agree with @Knave, more important than encouraging someone to lose weight, is encouraging someone to get active and fit!


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## whisperbaby22

Horses are expensive, even though I only have one, and he is in my back yard, here in So Cal it costs a fortune to keep a horse in hay all year. But this is money well spent for me, every morning I get up and go out in my back yard and shovel horse ####. Some women my age turn into puddings. I credit my horse addiction to helping to keep me healthy, and every penny well spent.


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## bsms

^^ Speaking of which, just read this:

"Abandon all romantic thoughts about horses and think of horse manure. It was a problem that was growing as the large cities grew even larger. Toward the end of the 19th century, the waste product of horse digestion covered the city streets in thick layers. For the city councils, it was a headache for which there was no soothing pill. Each day in Paris, 90,000 horses needed to be fed and their waste disposed of somehow...In New York, about 15,000 carcasses were removed every year from the streets."










https://victorianparis.wordpress.com/2019/05/21/life-in-the-age-of-decay/​


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## SueC

It's really excellent hanging out with other readers. So much interesting information comes our way... plus of course people write so well... Thanks, @bsms and everyone else here! 

I was thinking about the differences in metabolism, eating etc raised here today as I was doing my outdoors jobs. I cast my mind back to the semester I was doing Biochemisty as an undergraduate - one of the most complex and information-dense courses I ever did, and a real eye-opener in so many ways... (I nearly went mad though with all the posters of metabolic pathways I had to make up and put all over the walls and memorise for the exams...  ...but it did look quite nerdy and decorative... the most difficult pathway was placed on the inside door of the toilet, since that was a room frequented several times a day, and where one could multitask with going over the reactions...)

Two things really struck me that semester:

1. The plethora of pathways available to deal with different substrates, and how energy could be extracted from carbohydrate, protein and fat, etc, and one thing could frequently be made from another thing in more abundant supply (not always though, which is why we have essential fatty acids, essential amino acids etc - and interestingly, these usually differ depending on species), and...

2. Breakdown of toxic substances, and the load it puts on the rest of the metabolism - and yet, fellow students were willingly intoxicating themselves under the table several times a week... sort of seemed to me that they were more concerned what went in their car's petrol tank, than what they put in themselves... :shock:

Anyway, I'm not surprised that a range of different things work for different people, with nutrition / eating patterns etc - we can't all be optimised for the same pathways; we're a diverse lot...


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## bsms

Frustrating ride / Rant:

Had an unusual ride today. Planned to do 3 minutes in the arena with Bandit exploring his hoof boots, then take him on a SHORT ride solo on the trail. Short because my wife was leaving soon for a medical appointment and she (and I!) doesn't entirely approve of me riding solo when no one is around to look for me or notice things if I don't come back.

Just after mounting, Trooper went BONKERS. Running around, squealing, jumping, kicking. Looked. Saw two people riding on the road about 5-600 yards away. Bandit didn't notice them or care about Trooper. The people turned up our street. THEN Bandit noticed them. He became very tense.

Why? In 11 years of riding, I've seen another horse being ridden TWO TIMES. The previous time, I still had Mia. Nothing scared Mia as much as a strange horse, but she had slowly become able to handle seeing another horse in a corral. I was quite proud of her when she stood her ground and didn't run away from a strange gelding. Stressed her, but she didn't try to run.

Four years ago, I swapped Mia for Bandit. Today was the first time since Bandit arrived that he had seen a strange horse being ridden. He didn't panic, but he tensed up tight inside. We got a little dressagey, so to speak. Yes, I've ridden a collected horse. I've never ASKED a horse to collect, but I've ridden them at times!

The two horses and riders paused on the road near me - I asked them to - and I coaxed Bandit to approach. He was NOT happy, but he did. Snorting & blowing and ready to fight. They asked me if I wanted to ride up the street with them and I took a pass. Both of their horses were bored with meeting Bandit.

The riders suggested I go to a clinic being held in the city soon on how to work with a mustang. After all, I obviously don't know how to ride a mustang or work with one if Bandit was so unhappy and tense about being near strange horses! The riders were being nice. I want to emphasize their intentions were pure.

But it was also very frustrating. According to his previous owner, when Bandit was loose on the reservation with a free-roaming herd, he didn't mix with the other horses. Bandit was always off to one side. When he came here, it took about 6 months to get him to mix peacefully with the other two - 6 months where he lived in his own corral just feet away from the others. And he has now gone 4 years without seeing another horse loose in the open (other than Cowboy and Trooper).

Mia obviously believed in her heart that other horses wanted to attack her. I am told that has changed now that she has experienced life in a free-roaming herd.

Bandit? I don't know what has happened before, but he tenses mightily just being ridden within 100 yards of corralled horses. I was proud he accepted my guidance to approach the strange horses. I wasn't sure he would. *The Horse Who Thinks* ALWAYS has his own thoughts. I was thrilled he would accept my "advice" to approach what obviously deeply worried him. Heck, Trooper totally freaked out just SEEING the strange horses within 500 yards - and he was in his corral!

They offered to let me ride with them, but Bandit would have been an emotional mess so I declined. They recommended the clinic again and left. As they left, Bandit got the Twisty-Turnies. He did NOT want his tail toward the strangers. So I rode him out onto the road and let him watch them riding away, then rode him back. In our little arena he offered a few laps of cantering followed by a few more of trotting, then blew hard and accepted he had survived the encounter.
*
But I also felt like a total failure!*

I'm genuinely proud of Bandit for listening to me as well as he did. He was very uncomfortable but did as I asked. OK, we briefly did a few twists and turns in a "collected" sort of way, but look at the bright side - he didn't buck! He obviously felt a need for speed, but he didn't canter until I asked him! He felt threatened, but he approached when asked.

Still, I apparently don't know much, in spite of 4 years with Bandit and 7 years before that with Mia. I'm sure I don't look like much of a rider, too...but I've ridden more severe bolts than most need to in their lives, and ridden a ton of violent spins, and the only time I've come off was when I was already trying to get off. 

But...I need to go to a clinic to learn to ride a mustang.    It helps me understand why my son might get frustrated when given advice on diet. We can mean well and still come across as putting someone else down. Not how the other riders meant it, I'm sure. But how I felt.

On the bright side, my new cowboy boots were great:










Ariat Men's Sport Outfitter Western Cowboy Boot​
Amazon had them on sale for $100 and I grabbed a pair. The heel is 1.75 inches - a nice big heel - and is slanted in just enough to feel totally comfortable when walking. My heel hits at the same leg angle when I walk barefoot or in these boots. Wide toe feels good too. Low shaft. Easy on/off. The most comfortable walking boots I own. Yet they also have a great big heel. Nice to have when one uses the "home" position!

I'd buy a second pair but the price had gone back to $145. Oh well!

PS: Did I mention I was proud of Bandit? OK...well, it is worth repeating. He was giving me what he had to give. I thought he was wonderful today.


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## egrogan

In my book, any time you and your horse face a fear together, it's a good ride. Feedback from the peanut gallery be dam*ed!


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## Woodhaven

Most certainly NOT a failure, you rode your horse through the whole procedure and he listened to you. no one knows your horse as well as you do and you did what you thought he could handle so that was good. Not everything has to be resolved immediately, it's ok to take steps, altho' I know you don't have much opportunity to meet other horses as that would help Bandit get used to it. \I think you handled things well and don't forget you had a time schedule which hampers situations like this.


Today I felt like a real wimp. Our weather predictions were for severe thunderstorms today so I got over early hoping to beat them. I am riding a nice gelding that we have had for just a few days. He was very buddy sour the first couple of days but we have worked through that. I was going to take him out around the farm today but I didn't want to get caught far from the barn if it suddenly turned into a bad storm so I went out to the sand area to do some schooling, the wind came up after a bit and it started to rain.
Now I never quite just for a little rain but I'm thinking, weather predictions, new horse don't know how he will handle bad weather and I'm not as young as I once was so when it rained harder I decided to head for the barn, I did ride around a bit in the rain back at the barn so he didn't think we had to run for cover because of a few drops of rain. It turned out not to be a bad storm, we did get wet but that's all, and I told Sis that if I hadn't seen the weather report I would never have stopped when I did.

Anyway I think you handled your situation wisely, maybe if they come back sometime you can go out with them for a short time.


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## lb27312

I think you did an awesome job in handling your horse! I often think did I fail the horse? What could I have done to make the situation better? I think we all have those questions... and it's good we do.

The Boots are AWESOME!!!


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## gottatrot

Horses are creatures that enjoy predictability. Anything unpredictable is dangerous. For a horse to be upset when meeting strange horses really has nothing to do with the rider, the training, or anything else. There can be many different reasons for it. 

I don't know if you asked for info about the other riders' horses, but one of them could have been a stallion, or a mare in heat. Either of those will cause unusually strong reactions in other horses. I'd say probably the reactions of your horses were just from lack of practice in that particular area, but there might have been other factors.

Halla was around many strange horses and accepted most of them just fine. Occasionally, we'd go with a group and there would be one horse that would just annoy her and she would spend her time chomping her teeth, pinning her ears, and swishing her tail in their direction. 
Amore is fine around strange horses, but if we were ever around one that was hormonal, it was chaos. Hero so far is often worked up when around other horses, and it seems related to insecurity about Nala and their herd status. Without Nala, he tends to be a lot better. So Bandit might even have felt protective of Trooper, if that is part of his job, especially if Trooper seemed upset. 

I'm not sure we always read all the nuances of a horse's body language. For instance, one of the two horses riding may have been sending strong signals to your horse that said "I will kill you if you approach my friend." Last night I walked my two horses by Badger, a horse that protects his field so fiercely that no other horses can go inside of it with him. Normally Hero goes by with just a little posturing, but since Amore was there he was a lot more aggressive toward Badger with his body language (from outside the fence) and stood on his hind legs and squealed at him. These are just middle-aged geldings and an elderly mare. So there can be a lot of normal drama going on in that horse world. 

I wouldn't let well-meaning people who don't know anything about the situation make you feel like a failure.


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## Dragoon

Horses forget. Sometimes amazingly fast.

The ottb mare I work with, its like her memory is wiped every time she is off riding for any length of time. She has a wonky front leg, and I have 'restarted ' her about five times now. We started trotting over xrails this week. I have to pet and praise her for doing so, even though I feel like an idiot. She acts like she's never seen one before, yet we've done it a bajillion times...in the past...I have to conclude that in her mind, it really is new, and she is being brave for me.
The amount of memory wipe is proportional to the amount of time off...
She is an extreme case, I think...

The hafliger kid had about four months off over the winter, but was at 90 percent after one short ride. It shocked me! The mare forgets after two weeks...grr, I hate when she gets a hoof crack and I have to wait to resume riding...

I'm really surprised you expect your horses to be calmer about strange horses when it is such a rare event! 
You are a great horseperson for giving them the guidance they need!

I only conclude that their fears are real, to them, no matter if we feel it's silly.


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## SueC

Just back-seat drivers, @bsms! 

Also: You're riding an Arabian, not a plodder - and they are very emotional, expressive, thinking, let's-go creatures. 

It's funny how people who ride plodders like to talk about horsemanship, and sometimes imagine their skills are superior because their (naturally semi-comatose) horses are "behaving"... :rofl:

And / or they will say that your horse is "mad" or that it's untrained or that it doesn't "respect" you and you should drive it around in circles in a yard a lot so it knows who's boss. :rofl:

Or that you need to go to a clinic so you can improve your skills...

All these people are reading from the same script, and playing the same broken records, and you won't hear any of that from a real horseperson who rides animated, athletic, thinking horses, and who understands horses. They'll just think, "Oh, this horse is apprehensive about strange horses, and probably doesn't meet strangers very often." And offer you an opportunity for your horse to hang with / ride with their horse(s) there and then (which your lot did, to give them credit).

When I was doing Sunsmart's saddle training, when he was agisted in Albany in 2009, he had a bee in his bonnet about cows (AKA dangerous horse-eating space aliens). He'd stop and have stalk-eyes every time he spied one in the landscape - and there were lots of cows tucked away in this 5-acre hobby farm area, usually emerging from behind bushes etc! :rofl: One time, I was riding him a little further afield, near a real farm with a whole herd of Angus, about 80 head. mg: said Sunsmart! Snort, paw, eyes on stalks, running backwards etc. I stayed calm and kept facing him in the same direction, chatting to him about the cows. "Yes, these are cows. Mooooo! I see them too. Take your time, but don't run away. Look! They're not coming to eat you." (It's harder to convince a horse of this when the cattle are running up to the fence in curiosity! :rofl

It was just patience with these situations, and repeat exposure, and remaining cheerful and calm, and communicating with the horse until it overcame its apprehensions and went past whatever monster it was worried about - then lots of praise, "Oh you're so clever, you braved the carnivorous aliens from outer space!"

There would have been lots of people riding horses who were educated at time of purchase and had grown up with cattle etc, who would have imagined they could offer me advice on how to handle the situation. Sometimes I met such people. They've never in their life saddle trained their own horse from scratch, or worked with "hot" horse breeds, or raced a horse flat-out, or done an endurance ride, or anything like that. They ride semi-comatose, pre-educated horses and think they know how all horses and riders should be. Don't let it worry you! 

My best horse buddy in Albany, by the way, I met this way, in this exact situation. She was riding down the road my track was coming up to, and observing my horse's behaviour near the herd of cattle. I braced myself - here we go! Here comes the advice!  And instead, she waited at the road until I could convince Sunsmart to walk on (which was made easier by the fact she was there on a horse - after all, here was another horse, calm in the face of the space aliens!), and then said, "Hello! Is he new to cattle? Are you training him up?" and we got chatting. She was on Rikki-Tikki, a magnificent OTTB whose post-track training she'd also done herself - he had been considered a "mad horse" but once they got to know each other, they became a wonderful team.

So, we rode down the road together, and she said, "Where are you agisted? Mind if I ride along? I don't often ride in company." And when we got back to our paddock, we exchanged numbers and made plans to do trails together - my new friend said, "It's so nice to meet a horse and rider who don't just plod. Most people around here call me a "hoon" because my horse trots, canters and - OMG - _gallops_ on a regular basis. Looks like you and I ride the same sort of pace - this is going to be excellent!"

And it was!




























Cows became "old hat" many moons ago...


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## bsms

"_Oh you're so clever, you braved the carnivorous aliens from outer space!_" - @SueC

Yep! Gotta remember that one! And its corollary: "_Did you see how the carnivorous aliens from outer space left the area when they saw you? Yes sirree! They KNEW they were no match for us!_"

Worked on "Solo in the desert while wearing the large size hoof boots" today. Just wandered around in about a 300 yard long section of desert he knows well, until he blew boogers out of his brain and we could relax our way home. Plan to repeat, and repeat, and repeat until he accepts the idea that we go out alone together. AND RETURN ALIVE. :Angel:


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## SueC

Yep, you go, Bandit and @bsms !

And re..._"Did you see how the carnivorous aliens from outer space left the area when they saw you? Yes sirree! They KNEW they were no match for us!"_

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :charge:

I was thinking about all this when we took the dog walking before. It just seems a lot of people out there don't realise you have to teach horses things, and get them accustomed to things (unless you buy pre-packaged ISA Brown equivalents). A horse has to learn that cows aren't dangerous. It learns that from repeated exposure without coming to harm, and from the calm, warm and encouraging tone of a rider / handler it trusts, and especially from situations where cows run away from _them_! Yippee!






That, of course, was Sunsmart the year after "mg: cattle!!!" :rofl:

A horse does not learn that cows (or rubbish bins, or strange horses, or tractors, or UFOs etc etc etc) aren't dangerous because a rider or handler bullies it or beats it or is unpleasant to it, or _forces_ it past (instead of _encouraging_ it past, or to interact with the "monster"). It just learns from that, that human beings are not trustworthy, and that they will force you to do things that are dangerous. Remind you of a certain old thread? :Angel: In time, bullied horses might come to understand that XYZ really aren't dangerous, but this isn't going to repair their damaged relationship with the rider / handler, or suddenly make them trust that person. In the long term, a horse might forgive a rider / handler. But it's so unnecessary to create such situations. Dialogues, not monologues! ;-)

I was thinking if I could beat students in a maths class until they spontaneously learnt quadratic equations! Will that work? What if I give them a textbook, and tell them to read it while I go around beating everyone and yelling at them until they can solve quadratic equations? :rofl:


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## Knave

I think most horses react to strange new horses. Maybe not in boarding barns and places that are busy, but in places that are rural it is expected. Bones is especially terrible about it, but I think it relates to his disorder. Everyone else is pretty good about new horses in new places, and Bones cannot handle that either.
@Dragoon, I don’t think the mare is who is different than the norm. I think that Nashville was the oddity. Zeus is the same way! He had a couple months off, and I pulled him out the other day and harnessed him up to clean up heavy things in the yard. Zeus is always Zeus. Lol. That is not normal in a young horse. I think it is normal for those breeds, but the mare is normal for the hot styles of horses.


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## knightrider

This is for @Dragoon. I think you used to have a journal, but perhaps others will enjoy the story also.

My neighbor was given a gorgeous dapple iron gray 2 year old colt as payment for work. He had a retained testicle and wasn't broken. My neighbor is up in age, and was not up to starting a colt, so he got our lovely "Erica, Miss America" to take him. Erica can train anything. She is quiet, calm, and thorough. She kept this colt for a month and then gave him back, saying that he couldn't learn anything. Every day, he panicked at whatever it was she was teaching him. After an hour, he was fine, but the next day--same thing. She couldn't ever build on anything, but had to start over every single day.

My neighbor knew he was no match for that kind of non-learning, and the testicle wasn't dropping. Instead of throwing good money after bad, he took the colt to auction. Before the auction started, a man approached him to buy the colt. This colt was just stunning to look at--big gray shining dapples. He carried himself like a stud colt because he was one. The man promised he'd give the colt a good home, blah blah, money was exchanged, and the colt went home with the new owner.

A few years later, our 4-H friend told us what happened to the colt. The man had bought the colt for his 4-H teenager, and they promptly got him gelded and sent him to a fancy schmanzy trainer . . . who couldn't do anything with him. And then another trainer who was equally frustrated. He was such a beautiful animal (half brother to my daughter's mare, same sire). This sire always throws beautiful babies with lovely walking horse gaits. Finally the family heard of a trainer in Jacksonville who takes on special projects that other people can't manage. The colt wasn't mean in any way, he just never seemed to be able to learn anything.

The special trainer took on the colt and got him trained easily. The 4-H teen began riding him, adores him, and is now winning piles of ribbons on this beautiful animal.

I am not sure the colt "couldn't learn." I think he just had to mature. I am not sure the special trainer was any more talented than the others who could not get the colt to learn. I think the boy just had to grow up . . . and he did.


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## bsms

@knightrider, that horse sounds a lot like my daughter!


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## SueC

:rofl:, @bsms!

Great story, @knightrider. And Chip was a bit like that when he was under four. It was like he had a colander for a brain. Very frustrating. But, he's actually a very intelligent horse. Maturity changed everything...


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## Dragoon

Ouch, bsms, hope your daughter isn't reading! LOL 

Thanks much for the stories!
The ottb mare does learn, reeeally slowly. I don't think she's abnormal. 
I liken her to myself and math. If I (reluctantly!)study I can pass a test, and will forget it all in a very short time. Its not a subject I enjoy. Mare hates riding. She tells me aallll the time, that she likes me, but doesn't like riding. (Yes, I've had chiro done, tack checked).

She raced two years, then spent four years in a field doing nothing. She doesn't miss humans, or riding. I don't blame her, it wasn't a positive experience. Unfortunately for her, she's my second favorite horse to ride! Lol (My own gelding being first, always and forever) She feels so floaty, and powerful. And she's quite talkative. Always letting you know how she feels about everything. Still, she tries hard to be good even though she's a drama queen.
That huge sigh of relief she gives everytime you get off let's you know you were the only one having fun! Hahahaha


Nashville liked attention, and riding was a game he enjoyed playing!


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## bsms

My daughter doesn't read my journal, but we've talked about how horses can teach us about people. On thing they have taught both of us is that there are seasons in life. There are times when you are ready to learn something, and times when you are not. Things come in waves, and you can fight the waves or learn to move with them. And it is easier if you move with them.

Tom Roberts wrote about "Quiet Persistence". Keep giving the horse opportunities to get the right answer, but don't IMPOSE the right answer.

Two years ago my daughter would have been thrown out of the military. So she spent two years in community college. When she volunteered to go - when it was HER idea - she joined. And while we worried a lot, and sometimes with some reason, she is making good progress. Studying Hebrew at the DLI and loving it. But just like with horses, we need to learn to enable rather than coerce. Very hard to do. Very individual. And of course, we have to accept that we WILL fail at times. And then you don't quit, but get back on...


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## bsms

From nearby Tucson:

From the coolest seasonal weather in over 100 years to 100 degrees

"_The irony is that the average high temperature for the city from the dates May 16th – June 5th was 86.3 degrees. Each day during this three week stretch was below average....it’s the coolest stretch of weather for these dates going all the way back to 1917!_"

Now?










_This is the 11th latest Ice Break in recorded weather history._ https://kvoa.com/weather/2019/06/09/the-ice-has-broken-that-was-some-thick-ice/​
Bandit and I got out before 9AM. It was 95 degrees. We did a solo ride, with about 30 minutes of wandering in a little larger area of land - maybe 500 yards long. I've decided to judge success based on how much TIME we are out versus how FAR we travel. After 30 minutes, I was bored. Bandit was too. But that is good. It means he is starting to view it as routine. My goal is to get him thinking the 200-250 acres of desert near us is just a big arena with lots of obstacles. His hoof boots didn't seem to be an issue. Good on rocks and he is getting used to them on uneven ground. Slow progress, but progress.


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## bsms

I could hear chainsaws buzzing as I went outside this morning, so I opted for an easy day. Wore my Tilley's hat. Used the Dr Cook's bitless. Stayed in the arena. While putting on fly spray, I accidentally poked Bandit's eye. I was moving my hand to get near his eye when he turned into it. It was a pretty hard poke and I felt horrible about it. But...Bandit being Bandit, and after 4 years together, I was forgiven in 30 seconds. Washed his eye a little with some water and he seems to be doing fine. But I decided then to let him do a lot of eating and only a little work.

Bandit might offer that as a trade: "_Ummm...Bob, how about you poke me in the eye again and then let me graze for 30 minutes of our 45 minute "ride"?_" I'm pretty sure I was forgiven before mounting up, but I'm CERTAIN I was forgiven by ride's end! Part way through, my wife showed up. She took a couple of pictures and one short video. Wish she had taken more video. Bandit wanted to TROT. Or CANTER. He went from _"Hmmmm, that patch of grass over there looks good"_ to _"I'm a STUD! Watch me!"_ And the moment she stepped inside the house? He looked, saw a patch of grass, and stopped next to it. The reins slid thru my fingers as he dove his head and went back to munching! :loveshower: No getting around it. He's a ham!

Wish I could get my wife to hold her phone sideways...

A still picture, taken first:













I mostly let him set speed, except a couple of times when I told him to stop near my wife. This picture was me asking (insisting?) on turning right when he thought left was better. He DID agree to turn my way, but we obviously are thinking different thoughts:








There is a discussion of "hot horses" on a dressage thread. I didn't comment because it IS a dressage thread. But from MY perspective, the horse didn't strike me as necessarily "hot". Maybe, but maybe not. Could just be like Bandit - an independent soul and a bit of a ham.

To me, a "hot" horse is one without an "off switch". I've seen that term used for sport Border Collies - "_Oh, my BC doesn't have an off switch!_" I had a place that adopts out Border Collies tell me they don't have off switches. I pointed out that on a ranch, a Border Collie without an off switch is called "dead" - you shoot them to stop them from harassing sheep. They told me I don't know about Border Collies. I'm pretty sure THEY don't! But let's not get off on dog adoption places...:evil:

Mia struggled with an off switch. When she boiled over, or got excited, she STAYED intense for 20, 30 minutes. Two hours once, in the arena! She'd cool down to 210 degrees, or maybe 205, but it took AGES for her to relax. I've done 8 or more bolts on her - diarrhea squirting bolts - in a half hour. My rancher friend pointed to a mountain about 15 miles away and told me, "_Ride her to the top and back every day for a week and you'll have a great horse!_" I pointed out I was too old to try. He laughed and said he probably was too, but if his sons ever came down....

She could go entire rides without taking the slack out of the reins. But if she spun up, you'd best hang on and plan on spending a brutal time in the saddle trying to calm her down. To me, THAT is a hot horse. But even with Mia...she now lives in a place where 2-4 mile runs are common & done for fun. All the time. And she seems to have an off switch now.

Bandit is not hot. He was when I got him but I think it was a learned behavior. Bandit can get ****ed, crow hop, thrash his head around...and 60 seconds later be Mister Calm. I would call him a free-spirited COLD horse. He can go from "*WOW!*" to "_Nom-nom-nom, grass is good!_" in seconds. He can get poked in the eye and 30 seconds later be rubbing his sore eye against my chest. He can go from "_Look at me!_" to "_I love grass_" in seconds. He's an expressive horse, but not a hot one.

PS: I've been criticized on HF before for Bandit's elevated head. It ain't me pulling on it. And he does it when I'm in two point. When he feels animated, his neck comes back and his head is high. A minute later, his head may be below his withers. It is up to him and he stays well balanced with a flowing back. It is who he is. And I'm happy with him and he's happy with me.

It would be interesting to take the hot horse on the dressage thread and do with her what my friend suggested doing with Mia - take her out and let her work, and work HARD, for 10+ hours. Do some 30 mile rides including 3,000' of elevation gain, daily, for a week. My guess is she would calm down considerably. But...would you WANT that in a dressage horse? Would you want to teach her to place a high value on efficiency? Might make her an easier ride, but not nearly so much a good dressage horse. But it is hard to speculate like than on a dressage thread because it is viewed as criticism. It isn't. I value a horse like Bandit because I think his showing off is fun, but I'm also glad he prefers eating most of the time. That doesn't mean others cannot value something different.


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## bsms

> ``By the bye, Charles, are you really serious in meditating a dance at Netherfield? -- I would advise you, before you determine on it, to consult the wishes of the present party; I am much mistaken if there are not some among us to whom a ball would be rather a punishment than a pleasure.''
> 
> ``If you mean Darcy,'' cried her brother, ``he may go to bed, if he chuses, before it begins -- but as for the ball, it is quite a settled thing; and as soon as Nicholls has made white soup enough I shall send round my cards.''
> 
> ``I should like balls infinitely better,'' she replied, ``if they were carried on in a different manner; but there is something insufferably tedious in the usual process of such a meeting. It would surely be much more rational if conversation instead of dancing made the order of the day.''
> 
> ``*Much more rational, my dear Caroline, I dare say, but it would not be near so much like a ball.*''


Pride and Prejudice, Chapter 11

You have to know your objective in order to know how to get there. I prefer reading to attending a dance. "_It would surely be much more rational if conversation instead of dancing made the order of the day._'' Truly. But of course:

*"Much more rational...I dare say, but it would not be near so much like a ball.*''

A dressage test should look more like a dance than like a horse reading a good book in a library....:rofl:


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## tinyliny

I'd rather see the horse reading the book, frankly.


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## bsms

I've seen dressage performances where I'd prefer to watch the horse reading a book. But I've watched SOME on YouTube that I've enjoyed. I've never watched any that I wanted to imitate. Bandit and I....well, we're kind of the trailer trash of the horse world. Speaking as someone who has lived in a trailer park and loved my neighbors. The family next to ours was awesome!

I was tempted to post something on the thread about heels down. But it was in "English Riding" and let's just say I deleted instead of posting. Decided it would go over like a turd floating in a punchbowl. But I did this close-up of today's picture in prep to posting there. Let's face it. Bandit & I get along well together. But we are sooooooooo NOT "Haute Ecole":








The dressage people I like are the ones who think, "_But if you both are having fun..._" The ones I don't like are the ones thinking, "_That Shoulder-Hip-Heel alignment! OMG! There is a BRAND on that scrub horse! And look at the toe on that boot! If he is ever up the proverbial creek without a paddle, he can take off his cowboy boots and get started! And look at where that toe is pointed! OMG! Is that a plastic saddle? He can't even turn his horse!_"

Encountered both before.

I checked on Bandit's eye at the noon meal. He looked fine. And yes, I like a horse who sometimes says, "_Right? RIGHT?! Are you nuts? Left, boy, I say LEFT boy!_" The way I ride, staying on and finishing the ride happy with each other is often as good as it gets.


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## whisperbaby22

Yea, I find a lot of "dressage" not something I'd like to watch.


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## tinyliny

Oh, I should clarify that I generally enjoy watching dressage rides (not all), but it's just that I've never SEEN a horse read a book, so given a choice, that would be my preference.


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## whisperbaby22

OK, I'm in the camp of not really liking to watch other people ride, I'd rather be riding myself. As to horses being able to read a book, my horses have always been able to read me like a book.


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## gottatrot

Loved the Pride and Prejudice quote. 

I thought the same thing about the dressage horse. Definitely not 10/10 hot in my book. Hot is something that transcends training. A horse that becomes trained and then is not hot, was merely green. To me the mare in the video had a great deal of relaxation, even though young and being ridden out among other horses. A super hot horse is going to be so difficult to ride, even a top rider is going to have to be riding every step and you'll see that the horse is trying things every second rather than relaxing. The horse is not going to be able to stand still in a new environment, or maintain a regular rhythm. Not until older and with a lot more experience.

A horse I thought was probably 10/10 hot was Hickstead. I saw him jump at the WEG in 2010, and he was a fire breathing dragon. Here he is with all this headgear on, and with expert riders with very strong cores, used to riding very strong horses over huge jumps. Yet you can see they are having some difficulty managing him. He would burst forward sometimes after jumps, they had trouble slowing him, and he was quite wild. Although obviously superbly trained. At the 3:00 mark in this video the rider is actually see-sawing a bit, and then soon after has to lean his entire body quite behind the vertical trying to keep him from running out of the arena. 






It was interesting to hear Eric Lamaze talking about him. He considered the horse unrideable for quite some time, and almost gave up a few times. He couldn't get him to go over water. But of course a horse that reactive was extremely careful and didn't want to hit any jumps, so when they eventually managed to ride him, they were able to win. It took a lot of understanding what the horse's motivations were, and what he was reacting to. When I saw Hickstead I thought that if you galloped him to try to wear him out, he'd probably take you sixteen miles and hurt himself, and you'd be really lucky if you were on at the end. Talk about a high headed horse.


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## SueC

Speaking of _Pride & Prejudice_, we've just finished watching _Pride + Prejudice + Zombies_ today. Great fun!  






And if you've not seen_ Lost In Austen_ yet, do yourself a favour - two nice little twists on the original story.


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## updownrider

This photo is for Tiny. You said you have never seen a horse reading a book.


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## tinyliny

thank you. I can cross that off my bucket list.


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## egrogan

tinyliny said:


> thank you. I can cross that off my bucket list.


 @*tinyliny* , I think the universe heard your request. This was just posted on the American Morgan Horse Association FB page- it's the actual horse, Blackjack, reading the children's book written about him :rofl:


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## updownrider

My photo is my mother’s mini, Sammy. A neighbor had to do a school art project called animals in nature. Sammy is eating carrots behind that book.


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## bsms

All I can say is I'm NOT giving my horses Internet access in the corral! No smart phones for them either! Not sure I want to think about what sort of videos 3 geldings might stream in the middle of the night...


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## SueC

As they are geldings, they would be watching horticultural videos on carrot growing. :Angel:


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## phantomhorse13

Do you think they would find us riding tutorials or suggest exercise programs?! or perhaps instead focus on all the different feedstuffs available, if only their silly humans would bring it home..


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## bsms

I suspect Bandit and Trooper at least would watch zombie and other horror films. They would consider them documentaries.








Got a solo ride in the desert with Bandit today. Couldn't find my helmet so went without. First solo ride helmetless in the desert. Bandit kept an eye (and both ears and both nostrils) on the alert for zombies. None attacked us but he wasn't going to be caught off guard even without watching documentaries.

He was doing pretty good until I asked for some trots. He gave me some fast and very elevated trots. Too fast to post and too elevated to sit. So I asked for some canters. First time cantering with him solo in the desert without a helmet. The rocks going by sure looked big!

It is an open question if he was starting to build up tension or just having fun. I think a bit of both. I'm honestly not sure if he distinguishes between the two. But he slowed when asked, although I tried to delay asking until the rocks were getting too worrisome. After a half hour, I asked him to canter up the hill that leads to home. He did so, but slowed when asked at the top where we can see the houses spreading out before us.

I'm not a helmet fanatic, but I would have liked to have one on for today's ride. On the good side, Bandit cantered fine even in his hoof boots on very uneven terrain. And it never took more than two light bumps on the reins to get him to slow. The previous ride was done with a helmet but bitless and I think he felt a little lost without some contact. So we went with a single joint O-ring today.

Overall, he did well. He is raising his front end enough to clear the rocks and adjusts fine to the ground sloping left to right or right to left or alternating between those every 20 yards. His trots were big enough that I could have used shorter stirrups, but he shifted into canters without losing his mind. Too much.

Still jumps into a canter, which he had to do back when he carried 300 lbs. That is one of those things where a better rider probably COULD teach him to transition smoother. I can't. He slides into a canter sometimes so I know he can, but his habit seems to be hurdling himself into one. Does it without me on his back too, and I'm not good enough to cure him of it. I guess it could also reflect some weakness in his hind end. But I kind of suspect it is just habit.

Both of us did well, though. I realize most people on HF wouldn't think twice about doing a ride like today's, but I'm 61, started riding at 50, and my mind plays "_What if?_" constantly. I don't think it would have bothered me at 21. It is like hiking with a cell phone. I covered endless miles in some very remote country before cell phones existed. No worries. I now feel weird if I drive to the store without one. Felt half naked without a helmet today.


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## Knave

I am with you on the stupid cell phones @bsms. I cannot seem to leave it, but I have done a bit better over the last couple weeks. It’s hard to remember that we were absolutely fine without them. I don’t know why. I am always checking my back pocket to make sure I still have it with me. (Here is where I roll my eyes at my dependency on a silly little box.)

I don’t love technology. I know that sounds silly from a person who is addicted to the horse forum. It makes everything too fast, and it makes us dependent. I don’t love cars or planes or atvs. I don’t love the feeling in me that says “rush rush rush.” The phone is a part of that I think.


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## Knave

I forgot to add; I know the feeling of what you said. Dampening your joy in a success because for another it seems it would be simple. I do that often, but I don’t think we should. No need to ever dampen the celebration. Comparison seems to be the enemy of happiness.


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## phantomhorse13

Knave said:


> Comparison seems to be the enemy of happiness.


I think this needs to be repeated!!


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## Dragoon

One of my favorite quotes is "Your only competition should be with the performance you gave yesterday ".

I suppose I am odd. I feel nothing but joy when I ride out something I could not do previously. I don't care if forty million people could do it better. This is my journey I am on, and my memories I am collecting.

I am thrilled this week that I got the TB mare to canter a small circle. Without bucking. A big step forward for me! 
I don't care that the guy I pay to ride her got her to do that his first ride on her. Good for him! We are all at different places in the journey. Enjoy the one you're on!


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## Knave

You always make me smile @Dragoon!


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## bsms

Dragoon said:


> ...I feel nothing but joy when I ride out something I could not do previously. I don't care if forty million people could do it better. This is my journey I am on, and my memories I am collecting...


That is a good way to be. It is one thing to be inspired by someone else's success. Quite another to condemn yourself for not having the same success. I suspect the biggest source of tension I had was being without a helmet. Like a cell phone in my car, I've never needed it. But since they exist, I feel weird without one.

I did find my helmet. Looked all over the house. Nothing. Then I noticed a couple of highway cones lying in the middle of the arena. I use them sometimes to to mark spots but haven't used them for at least a year.

Hmmmm...could a dust devil have come by and thrown them into the arena? And if so, could it have tossed my helmet before I got everything in the day prior? So I looked around and found my helmet about 75 feet away. A spider was building a home in the opening. I brought it in and washed it, but I've had it for 10+ years and have no idea if the dust devil rolled it or it it was dropped from 30 feet in the air. It has some gouges on one side, so I threw it in the trash.

Most dust devils look like this:










The 30" video at this link is pretty cool:

https://weather.com/news/weather/video/dust-devil-spins-palm-tree-in-downtown-phoenix

I'm debating getting another one. Probably will. $80. But I sometimes wonder if it doesn't increase my nervousness overall. Bandit is no fire breathing dragon and I've never seen him lose a good sense of where everything is around him. Even when he spooks sideways, he always keeps us both out of the cactus. His last sideways spook was probably a year ago. He went about 50 feet sideways and I could see the cactus coming. I remember thinking, "He won't do it. He'll keep us out." He then spun 90 degrees, and stopped with my leg about 6 inches from the spines. Even in a spook, he keeps his mind. Unlike Mia.

Wearing the helmet sometimes makes me feel like I ought to be afraid. As if I'm doing something very risky. "_I'm doing something so dangerous I need a helmet!_" With Mia, I was. Looking back, I'm amazed we got as far as we did without being badly hurt. But Bandit is kind of like Cowboy. If I can stay on, I'm not going to get hurt. Much. Because Bandit isn't going to get hurt without a fight. If he thinks he can't do it, he'll give me the Middle Hoof Salute, kind of like this guy did:










"_Feeling that he was being unfairly harrassed by his neighbors and upset that the construction interruptions they prompted had cost him an additional $25,000, on 15 August 2006 Wood created a visible symbol of his displeasure by installing the vent covering pictured above, which he described as a decorative piece of “abstract art” representing a cactus._"

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/glove-thy-neighbor/​
Bandit wouldn't be above a bit of "abstract art representing a cactus"! I'll probably buy another helmet and use it. But...:think:


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## bsms

The wife is out of town tonight with relatives in Scottsdale. I like old westerns, but Bonanza was pretty low on my list of favorite shows. Still, it is sometimes a guilty pleasure, so I just rewatched the very sentimental episode "The Lonely Runner":






"_A judge awards itinerant horse breeder Jim Acton's beloved mare to rancher Sam Whipple. Jim tries to buy her back, but Whipple refuses his offer, after which a fight ensues..._"

I'm particularly partial to the section from 33 to 34 minutes. Notice they consider an 18 year old horse as being well past its prime. Probably pretty accurate for that day and age. But when you have horses running through beautiful country - and this episode was mostly shot outdoors - who cares about plot? Or if they get all the horse details right?

It also reminds me of a Civil War battle. A southern general was known to be brutal to his men, but his horses liked him. During one battle, his horse was shot 9 times. He swapped out horses so the horse would have a chance to recover. But the guy leading the horse to the rear lost control of him. The horse spent the rest of the battle following "his rider" through cannon fire and shot. The horse, IIRC, eventually recovered and lived on the farm the general retired to. According to locals, to his dying day, the horse would bite anyone who wore a blue coat.


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## SueC

@bsms, did you wear a helmet in your jet fighter? ...a seat belt? ..any safety equipment?

Do you also like spaghetti westerns? I have to admit I'm partial to those...

Have you ever watched the classic 1968 TV series _The Prisoner_? One episode was a Western - _A Town Called Harmony_. That was excellent - I think you'd like it!


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## bsms

In a jet fighter, @SueC, I wore a helmet to protect my head from being banged against the side of things in the cockpit. I had a 5-point harness and an ejection seat. But it was dangerous. I knew a number of guys killed during a 15 year period where flying was my primary duty. Saw my first ejection (successful) within a month of starting to fly. Probably knew a dozen guys who had safely ejected during the same time.

There are a lot of horse riding situations where I think it is foolish to go without a helmet. Mia, for 7 years. Bandit, certainly during our first year together. Maybe the first two. Jumping:



> The place where most accidents occurred was on cross country. Cross country involves jumping fixed obstacles at speed. If a horse hits one of these obstacles, either the rider or horse and rider will fall. The second most common area was either stadium or other unspecified. Warmup areas for the jumping phases were the next most likely place for an injury. It comes as no surprise the jumping phases accounted for 86% of the injuries. Dressage accounted for only 1% and the stable area and other accounted for 12%, again indicating the surprisingly large number of unmounted injuries. - From a 1990 study of head injuries during eventing, original link dead.
> 
> https://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding-horse-activity/helmets-injuries-some-studies-long-81416/


Barrel racing. A horse who bolts regularly, or who has a history of slipping. Most any horse activity that requires the horse to perform at the upper edges of speed or balance. I wore a helmet in a jet fighter, but not in a Cessna 150. Or my car.

I put a helmet on when doing something dangerous or very risky. Ergo, putting on a helmet MEANS I'm doing something dangerous. Or....I'm just taking an easy precaution, like bringing a cell phone with me on a trip to the store. Although I jog in the desert where there are rattlesnakes or I could have a heart attack, and never carry a phone with me then.

A helmet is certainly a reasonable precaution to take on any short ride. Not so reasonable if one is working a 10 hour day from horseback, but solo rides on Bandit are likely to be 90 minutes or less. Mostly 60 minutes. Or 45. We could survey the 300 acres near me in less than 45 minutes if we canter on the good parts of the trail. So the only reason to skip a helmet would be if the helmet itself made me feel nervous about what we were doing. Because at this point in our lives, riding in the desert is more like making a trip to the local store than driving in Le Mans.

But...I'll probably get another helmet.

Movies:



> ‘I like outdoor dramas best. On the stage, there is the voice to carry a large share of the drama. In pictures there is no opportunity for the tonal gradations that convey such meaning on the stage. The compensating thrill comes in what the stage lacks – the ‘long shots’ that bring in a herd of cattle, massive mountain peaks, a chain of waterfalls, a huge mob of men and women’. - John Ford
> 
> https://industrialscripts.com/john-ford-quotes/


I enjoy spaghetti westerns. I enjoy most westerns provided they are big enough. A review comparing the original and more recent True Grit movies made the point that the original used frequent large scenery shots to frame the story:








The more recent version was more close-ups, trees....maybe more historical and certainly truer to the book, but less a "western". In a real western, the land is as much the story as the story is. Big land. Small people. Fast horses. And the people growing to match the challenge. Preferably while riding fast horses.


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## whisperbaby22

I look at the positives of wearing my helmet. I have a hell hat, and one thing I like is that it does not budge in the sharpest wind. A cowboy hat has to be real tight, or else it wobbles in the wind. I just found a style that is very comfortable for me even in the hottest weather and prefer to ride with it.


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## Knave

I don’t have a problem with helmets, but I have never worn one either for anything more than the odd English show. There are many times I have been intimidated on horses, or let my imagination run wild, but it hasn’t occurred to me to relate a helmet as a cure. I guess in my mind if I need one I probably am screwed anyways.

I guess I’ve seen a lot of wrecks, and it’s not commonly the head injured so badly. Usually it is broken ribs and punctured lungs. My great grandfather was kicked in the head by a horse, and I guess it messed him up. He ended up dying a bit later, but I don’t really understand what happened, and I’d probably be lying if I said what I thought I’ve been told.

One of my neighbors was kicked in the head too. It messed him up for a few years, and he’s still affected. At the time I was substitute teaching and his son took over getting the colts started and doing the ranch work before and after school. I was impressed with the kid. Those are the only two big head injuries I know, most bad wrecks I have seen were body injuries.

Anyways, accidents do happen, and I am aware and occasionally pretty nervous. When Cash was falling I was constantly thinking he’d flip over the top of me and mash me with the saddle. Watching my husband endo on him that night, crawling backwards before Cash flipped onto where he’d been thrown, I didn’t know if I would have gotten out of the way in time. I’m not good at letting the momentum throw me. I sit too deep. Lucky for me he always fell sideways with me. 

I am sure if I had been raised with helmets I would feel differently about them. I made my kids learn to ride a bike with a helmet, although I never had one. Helmets I see are just beginning to be used for tiny kids riding, parents doing like I did with the bikes. I think I’ve seen three or four toddlers with helmets in the last two years or so, and I get it. Good for those parents. I probably would have felt good about having helmets when my kids were tiny too.


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## bsms

"_In Arizona, the cities of Tucson, and Sierra Vista, as well as Yuma and Pima counties have mandatory helmet laws for bicyclists under the age of 18._"

So much for freedom loving Arizona? I grew up in Pima County and rode my bike thousands of miles, including every major street in Tucson - although there were a lot fewer people and cars back then! If someone then had suggested I needed a helmet I'd have laughed myself silly.

On Bandit, now, I'm probably pretty safe. I can see wearing a helmet when cantering him alone on trails with his hoof boots on until I'm certain he is comfortable with them. But like Cowboy, he's a horse who REALLY doesn't want to fall! Mia? I watched her fall without me a bunch of times just running around in the corral. Bandit? Never seen it. Nor Cowboy. Saw Trooper fall in the corral once, but it was heavy mud and he was running.

The rancher I know in Utah has never had a family member get a head injury in 5 generations, and the sheepherders he's hired over the last 30 years have never had one either. Or even broken a bone. Wearing sneakers and no helmets. I'll pass on wearing sneakers, though:








Steer wrestling? The statistics I've seen indicate almost no head injuries, although it sure looks rough to me:








A helmet with Mia made a LOT of sense. Maybe riding Bandit along paved roads. Or until I'm certain he knows how to adjust for the hoof boots. It is never "wrong" to wear a helmet. Just not sure it is always something Bandit & I need. If I stay on him - and I'm not coming off without a fight - then the odds he'll bring me back in one piece are outstanding. That wasn't true 4 years ago. Is now.


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## phantomhorse13

bsms said:


> I'm debating getting another one. Probably will.
> 
> If I can stay on, I'm not going to get hurt.





bsms said:


> On Bandit, now, I'm probably pretty safe. But like Cowboy, he's a horse who REALLY doesn't want to fall!
> 
> If I stay on him - and I'm not coming off without a fight


You are an adult and certainly more than capable of making a decision about your personal safety.. so let me share a story. 

I watched a friend have what turned out to be a life-ending accident on a bomb-proof gelding. We had gone out on a trail ride with another friend and her green horse and spent a couple hours enjoying the trail. When we returned to the barn, the friend with the green horse asked if we would come into the arena with her for a few minutes, as she didn't want her horse to think returning to the barn meant work was over. We of course agreed and moseyed around at a walk while she did some schooling on the rail.

As we walked a big circle in the center, her horse suddenly tripped over nothing. I had never seen that horse so much as stumble before, but he went down to his knees. My friend, who had been sitting normally in her western saddle with her feet still home in the stirrups, went over his right shoulder. She hit the ground head first and lay there. She never regained consciousness and her husband removed her from life support 48 hours later.


While I generally wore a helmet before that, I have never been on a horse since without one.


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## SueC

That's really sad, @phantomhorse13. :-(

When I started riding, helmets were just hard hats without a crumple zone, and attached to the jaw via an elastic only. I wore that until I came off in it once, at age 9, in a group spook where everyone but one little girl came off, and all the horses bar hers raced back to the riding school riderless. (Her horse raced with the others. She didn't enjoy that experience either...)

When I came off, the helmet twisted on my head and its hard edge broke my nose. This resulted in injuries that impeded my airway until I was old enough to save up for surgery to fix the problem - at age 25. So, that was a long time breathing through my mouth...

An adult in the same type of helmet, in that same group spook, fell off headfirst and broke her skull, with that helmet on. She was in hospital for a long time and then tried to sue the riding school. These types of helmets were famously "only good for keeping your brain from splattering all over the place and making you neat for the morgue."

After I broke my nose, and the other rider her skull, I went without helmets from age 9 to age 21. Not a single incident...










Then I fell head-first onto a piece of wood, off my Arabian mare on a bareback jaunt. I was concussed, and I then reassessed the helmet situation, finding that there were now decent helmets with crumple layers and good chin harnesses. I bought one of those back in the 90s - still traditional black velvet, and the size of a watermelon...










This kept my skull safer, but in summer, it nearly boiled my brain. I actually got hyperthermia in that helmet once on a trail, and ended up nearly fainting and having to get off my horse. So I looked around again, and found that they were now making lovely lightweight helmets with cooling vents, in light colours, not the size of a watermelon. This is what I have now, and it's light and has no overheating problems.



Of course, sometimes I was still naughty, like when I hopped back on my Arabian mare once on an impulse when she was 30...






She was so wide, and at that point had something of a sunken back, so that your legs always ended up over her shoulders bareback! :rofl:

I've not ridden anyone except that mare without a helmet, as an adult. I think for higher-risk stuff like racing, jumping, eventing you'd be mad not to wear a decent helmet. But for low-risk stuff, I think it's discretionary. If you've already been concussed or watched a friend get hurt, you're unlikely to ride without a helmet from then on. But you could still break your neck, like Christopher Reeve did. It's never 100% safe to get on a horse, or even to get out of bed, or even to stay in bed. Helmets are about risk reduction, and sometimes the risk is very small, and far smaller than the risk of dying in a crash next time you get in your car. It's all relative. So, I don't have any issues with cowboys riding helmetless etc.
@bsms, was your plane toast when you ejected? I would have thought that was a foregone conclusion, but am asking because DH said, "Not necessarily, some of these can fly pilotless." But _land_ pilotless? Does any jet fighter do that???

On the ejecting topic, from our ABC this morning: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-06...es-after-german-fighter-jets-collide/11243452


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## bsms

It is without dispute that accidents CAN occur and that, if you hit your head in a fall, then a helmet can help reduce risk. The question adults need to answer is how much risk will they accept. When I jog in the desert, I would undoubtedly increase my safety margin if I took a cell phone with me. In case of a heart attack, it could save my life.

Today, jogging in 98 degree heat, with my bifocals, I spotted a rattlesnake just ahead. I did a Mia: an instant 180 degree turn and leaped away. Or maybe a Bandit, since a couple of strides later I turned back and assessed the threat. It was a branch. I snorted. Loudly. Looked again. After doing a few figure 8s...it was a branch. When my pulse dropped back into triple digits, I looked around to make sure nobody important saw me (Mia never worried about what I saw). Then resumed jogging.

In all seriousness, though, a cell phone would make me safer by some unknown, impossible to determine amount. I've never carried a cell phone jogging. Don't see it happening.

Rode Bandit solo today, helmetless. He stumbled once, finishing a 5' drop that is steep enough he tip toes down it. Somehow he stumbled today, almost went down, then recovered by some serious effort. Did a stumble-canter transition, which I thought was pretty impressive. He did a few strides of canter, then turned to avoid a drop off. Thank God he isn't Mia! Halfway thru the turn I asked him to slow, and he finished the 180 turn at a walk. Then acted a little embarrassed.

After 25 minutes alone, I felt his emotions were drifting higher instead of lower, so I suggested we return home. He was very happy to do so. We made good time to the top of the hill that overlooks the housing area.

In the 1980s, a guy ejected from an F-4. The checklist was held to his leg by a strap and the accident board determined a part of the seat caught on that strap and flipped the seat around at man-seat separation, crushing his skull. They banned wearing checklists on your leg.

Next flight, Lt bsms was flying with the squadron commander. The squadron commander strapped the checklist to his leg and climbed into the front cockpit. WSO bsms asked him later. He said there were limits to what he would do to avoid a freak accident. A few months later, the USAF agreed and gave us permission to do what most of us were already doing - strapping our checklists to our legs.

Mind you, I'm not saying ANYONE is wrong to wear a helmet. I may go back to wearing one. Or not. My Tilley hat is genuinely more comfortable. Much cooler. Not in the "Mr Cool" sense. Just genuinely much cooler on my noggin in the Arizona sun.

The risk? I think Bandit is going to have to roll before I come off over his shoulder. There is a reason I am serious about keeping my CG a bit aft of my stirrups at all times. 

Perhaps I could put it this way: There is a degree of risk from riding a saddle with a horn. If Bandit rolls on me, the horn could punch thru my chest. More than one person has died that way. I could buy a saddle without a horn. But I don't. I could also end up in serious cactus and have my eye punctured by a spine. My dog had that happen. Happily, $2000 later he can still see out of both eyes. But...YEGAD! What am I doing out there?!

I can also honestly say I've been slammed into the ground, violently, while working with horses in the corral. Based on personal experience, wearing a helmet while working with horses on the ground may make sense. But I don't. I'd 100% wear a helmet on a strange horse. And yes, I may go back to wearing one 90% of the time with Bandit. It certainly is not wrong. There is nothing "chicken" about it. But...we'll see. I don't think there is an obvious answer for an adult. For kids? Helmets. Strange horses? Helmet. If I was to toss a leg over Mia again? Helmet. Bandit & I...still thinking. I'll admit I was enjoying being helmetless this morning. In his own way, he is a heck of a horse.


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## bsms

SueC said:


> ...was your plane toast when you ejected? I would have thought that was a foregone conclusion...
> 
> On the ejecting topic, from our ABC this morning: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-06...es-after-german-fighter-jets-collide/11243452


In every fighter I know of, the plane is toast. If the plane COULD fly, frankly, the crew wouldn't eject. Ejection was for things like...a plane breaking in half in mid-flight. Rare, but it happened. Gas cap comes off the centerline tank, the entire rear half of the planes turns into a giant fireball. Watched that happen. F-111 engines quit 100 feet of the ground in the final turn to land...a friend ejected. Technically, they were "out of the envelope" for ejecting, but happily it worked anyways. One friend was in an F-4 that clipped the ground at 500 knots. Bounced up off the ground, they ejected...pilot killed in ejection, my friend survived.

All of which may color how I view helmets. I suspect part of me enjoys riding BECAUSE it has some risks I cannot control or entirely erase. I'd give a great deal to be able to strap into an F-4 again and take off....nothing quite like it. Even as a WSO.

PS: Sorry to hear about the pilot. Once went to a funeral with a 7 months pregnant widow. Went to another where it was the only child who died. Both parents there. Sometimes there are no words.


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## gottatrot

I think it's reasonable to decide how much risk you're willing to take based on what you've seen personally, or what close friends have experienced. 

That being said, I know two people now whose lives were saved by not wearing a seat belt. One was in a pickup when a double trailer truck had the back half not make a curve, and the connecting bar came right over the cab of the pickup. He was able to throw himself flat due to not wearing a seat belt, which saved his life. Another friend's son last week was thrown from a truck just before it went off a 300 ft embankment, because he was not wearing a seat belt. The guy that stayed with the truck died. Still, I will continue to wear a seat belt.

In the Pacific NW, there is a lot of moisture. Apparently our heads are heavier due to added moisture in the brain. My friends and acquaintances seem to far exceed the average for hitting our heads on the ground or cracking helmets. Every time we ride through the woods I seem to misjudge some tree branch and get a good thwack on the helmet from that also. 

Thinking of the safety checklist on the leg, in the trauma classes I've been to there are a whole list of things a person could avoid when driving in a car. They show pictures of what happens to your head if you put CDs in a holder on a visor and they slice through you, what happens to your legs if they were up on the dashboard when you crashed, and various other missiles that people often get injured by in wrecks.


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## bsms

@gottatrot, you and your friends tend to ride fire-breathing dragons. Bandit has lost his fire-breathing dragon status - in the desert. I'm going to buy another helmet because we - if I can ever find someone to ride with again - sometimes ride in neighborhoods, and Bandit can revert to being a dragon in a neighborhood. His internal tension goes way up and there are things that confuse him. 6' tall inflatable penguins at Christmas time, for example. 

The next day's flying schedule in a fighter squadron is signed by the Ops Officer or Commander. They review it for safety. An experienced pilot who has been on leave for a month, for example, won't have his first flight back be a demanding multi-ship air-air mission. In a two seat fighter, you want a mix of experience. I watched two young guys die in an F-4. The plane was hopelessly out of control and just a few hundred feet above the airfield. Along with a lot of others that day, I was shouting for them to eject - but of course, they couldn't hear. Neither ejected and a moment later the plane flipped over and slammed into the ground, killing both. If ONE of them had more experience, he could have saved them BOTH by ejecting.

I lived that "crew concept" for most of my adult life and carry it over to riding. My horse & I form a crew. Our "crew coordination" is a critical part of safety.



> After realizing we'd nearly killed someone, the PC's attitude changed immediately. Seeing how shaken I was, he took the controls from me and started being the trainer and mentor I needed....
> 
> [Years later]...I found myself getting furious and as I started to light him up, for some reason I thought back to my flight in Korea. *I remembered the feeling of being overwhelmed, timid and frustrated. I remembered how it felt to be on the controls and not wanting to be a pilot anymore.* Right there, mid-angry correction, I stopped. I took the flight controls, waited until we were clear of the Class B airspace, looked over at him and saw that he was "checked out." *I reassured him of his abilities, told him to stay in the fight and then returned the controls to him.*"
> 
> https://www.army.mil/article/217159/crew_coordination_can_save_lives


Bandit and I have done that together many times. In the F-4, you couldn't see the other guy. So if you shifted who was responsible for flying, you said, "You've got it" and shook the stick used to control the aircraft. You didn't relinquish responsibility until the other guy said, "I've got it" and also shook the stick. Bandit and I may "shake the stick" as it was called many times in a sortie. I mean, ride. Old habits die hard, but our sorties involve a lot of stick shaking, and both of us have grown reasonably comfortable with our crew coordination.

But on a mission through a neighborhood, he may need me to take control more often. Even so, he is more likely to lose control of his emotions there. Even 30 seconds of lost control can result in a fall on pavement.

A very touchy subject is riding technique. We often treat all falls as "Acts of God". Zeus threw a thunderbolt and we were knocked off our horse! Riding technique can prevent a lot of falls and deserves to be looked at every time. But horses remain horses, independent thinking beings, and there are falls that might as well be "acts of God". 

Pavement, IMHO, encourages "acts of God", although identifying chains of events that lead to such acts of God is a part of good riding technique. I lead Bandit through the 5 minute walk to the desert when I go ride. So many of our spooks have occurred during those first 5 minutes that I prefer to stay on the ground! But by definition, you cannot predict the unpredictable.

That is separate from choosing to ride more demanding, more emotional horses. Riding Mia wasn't very safe, but I chose to ride her for 7 years. I don't think it was "wrong" for me, either. I think we both needed something from the other. It was worth the risk. Bandit was riskier than Mia when I got him, but he's a changed horse. I'm a different rider. And what we do and why we ride is different from many others. For US, here NOW, I think OUR risks are reasonable even if I'm not wearing a helmet.


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## bsms

bsms said:


> ...After 25 minutes alone, I felt his emotions were drifting higher instead of lower, so I suggested we return home. He was very happy to do so. We made good time to the top of the hill that overlooks the housing area...I'll admit I was enjoying being helmetless this morning. In his own way, he is a heck of a horse.


Didn't ride yesterday. Was curious if he'd be more tense or calmer after finishing on a somewhat tense note two days ago.

For whatever reason, calmer. A dozen strides of nervous trot, then he settled and stayed the calmest he's been (solo). Sometimes Bandit seeks contact. Sometimes I impose it, from my nervousness. I've ordered another helmet - paid a little extra to get it in white - but was without a helmet today. I made an effort to RELAX the reins when I felt uncomfortable instead of tighten, to gain control by losing it. It worked well, although I don't know if that was why Bandit was calmer or if it was chance.

I worked him several hundred yards further than we've been solo. Found a mesquite tree with green beans near where I wanted to turn around, so I let Bandit grab a few, munch as we went another 100 yards, then turned around, let him grab a few more, and head back to our start point.











https://tucson.com/lifestyles/home-...cle_1c2cfbf7-d64c-52dc-8330-7ce05940bc35.html​
Bandit thought that was a fair deal. Maybe I should get some saddle bags and give him treats to reward further distances. In any case, two days ago he started at an emotional 6 and slowly rose to a 7. Today he started at 4 and stayed there.

However, during our last couple of minutes, he heard Trooper screaming like a stuck pig and started answering back. He's never done that before. The third time, he took in air, and as he opened his mouth to scream I pulled back hard with the reins, gagging him in mid-scream. Did that again a minute later, same reason. Then dismounted at our regular spot. He let out another scream and I slugged him in the neck. He started to let out another a minute later and I jerked his halter and chewed him out, cuss words included.

After that, as we walked the 5 minutes home, he would start to...and then look at me and sigh.

He's never done that before and I don't want him to start. I don't want him obsessed with me when we are out. He's welcome to let his mind wander a little, or to look around. I enjoy it when we are going north and he looks for 10-15 seconds to the west, curious about something out that way.

But I think we'll have a safety issue if he starts tossing his mind 1/2 - 3/4 of a mile away, back to the corral, when I need his mind within arms length! There are too many ways to get hurt in the desert. A little nicker once in a blue moon would be OK. Not repeated airhorn blasts.

BTW - left at just past 8 AM and had sweat rolling down my face and neck before mounting up. Was soaked with sweat when we got back an hour later. 20% humidity. 84 degrees. But sweat dripping from my face before I got on. I blame the intensity of the sunlight. It felt like someone ought to be waiting for us to return:


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## bsms

From an article about a guy whose foot was caught in the stirrup, linked to in @SueC 's discussion of falling theory:








https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-dragged-200-yards-horse.html#v-2404608027001

Dude needs to buy a pair of boots like these:








I'll ride without a helmet, but have no intention of riding without my boots!

A couple of pictures taken a while back...mentioned a time a few weeks ago when Bandit stopped and would not ride forward. It was because of this:








Bandit thought it was due to space aliens. I strongly suspect a dust devil. But we had gone past a healthy prickly pear here hundreds of times, so I think he was justified in his concern. So I backed him a few steps, dismounted, and slowly led him to the scene of destruction. Once he got a close up look with my boot on part of the destruction, he decided it was safe. Mounted up and we left at a walk. He now strolls by.

Took this one a couple of weeks ago along the dirt road we always use entering the desert. This is one of those cacti that you can't ride past without thinking, "It would hurt SOOO much if my horse...":

















All those spines at face level or above. I think those things scare me more than most falls would. Still, being slung sideways off a horse into that mess would hurt more than I care to think about.

On today's ride, we rode past the concrete slab that was poured for a house in 2006. The market collapsed and the house was never built. The foundation remains, with metal rebar sticking out. We've ridden past it more times than I could estimate, but I've always thought how much it would suck to come off in a spot like that. Impaled on a metal spike set in concrete! Maybe a couple. There are not a lot of good ways to die, but that would be pretty high on my list of bad ways to go. :frown_color:


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## Knave

Cactus like that scares me quite to death! Our horses don’t know cactus. We have little ones, and on one of my first Cash rides he decided to take a bite of one. I was afraid he’d strike me as I pulled the quills out of his mouth, but he was fine. Still he reaches down to bite them and I pull him away.

The only brush we have that’s pokey the horses will still occasionally rub against and then get mad about it. I’m pretty sure we would die in heavy cactus.


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## bsms

Bandit seems to respect cactus. Mia acted like it didn't exist. Mia was a sweetheart, but Bandit is more likely to return home with a living rider.


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## SueC

bsms said:


> The question adults need to answer is how much risk will they accept. When I jog in the desert, I would undoubtedly increase my safety margin if I took a cell phone with me. In case of a heart attack, it could save my life.


This is exactly right. When I was growing up, cellphones weren't an option, and now it seems you're considered mad if you don't take them. But you know what? Often, I enjoy being out and about completely free, and unable to be reached - and going on a stroll in the bush without telling anyone where I am. The feeling of freedom of no other person knowing where I am, just nature and me, sort of "disappearing" into the magic world through the back of the wardrobe, if you will, and not being part of the sound and fury for a bit... that's well worth the slight risk to me, and I think as adults it is our prerogative to weigh things like this up and decide what we are willing to trade off.

Of course, this is still safer than getting in your car and driving - which most people don't think twice about, especially ones who lecture others on their taking of minor (or even medium) risks for good reasons. ;-)




> Today, jogging in 98 degree heat, with my bifocals, I spotted a rattlesnake just ahead. I did a Mia: an instant 180 degree turn and leaped away. Or maybe a Bandit, since a couple of strides later I turned back and assessed the threat. It was a branch. I snorted. Loudly. Looked again. After doing a few figure 8s...it was a branch. When my pulse dropped back into triple digits, I looked around to make sure nobody important saw me (Mia never worried about what I saw). Then resumed jogging.


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

We have tiger snakes here. For me, the scenario generally goes like this, walking along thinking of other things when my subconscious says: _ "It's a stick, yep, just a stick. ...Hmmmm, this stick is moving. Ooops! Not a stick!"_ and then I'll do either a sliding stop, or a leap sideways or backwards or over the top of the thing, depending on what I am able to do at the time! I've never come to harm - the majority of snakebites in our country happen when people try to kill snakes, and most of the remainder when people stick their hands into holes or thickets or under tree trunks etc. Also, effective antivenenes are available, etc etc.

On the other hand, I know relatives who have walked around in _gumboots_ outdoors every summer since they arrived in Australia, because afraid of snakebite. Sure, it reduces your risk of being bitten from slight, to slightly smaller. But it increases the incidence of waddling like a duck, smelly feet, collapsed arches, acquired gait problems etc.


That was really interesting about the checklist; case in point. I've read that we're in an age where managements try to idiot-proof everything, and that all it's achieving is greater idiocy, as people are less likely now to think about their risk situations carefully and weigh them up - that habit is being lost in consequence, and the expectation is being created that "higher up" is responsible for managing all your risk for you, and then people behave like idiots, because a person who doesn't use their brain to think carefully and habitually is exactly that...


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## SueC

@bsms!!! We have an imported cactus called the Prickly Pear which has become an invasive environmental weed in parts of Australia. It looks like it's the same one that grows native where you are! 










Here, it's a garden escapee. But, you might enjoy this little helpful Australian reader's letter in GR on how to utilise this cactus for food. We annotated it and stuck it in my journal for keeping, back in 2010, after both of us had recovered from paroxysms of laughter...










I think you can click several times to get it bigger and readable. Also we use CTRL+ to make things even bigger in situations like this....


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## bsms

SueC said:


> ...The feeling of freedom of no other person knowing where I am, just nature and me, sort of "disappearing" into the magic world through the back of the wardrobe, if you will, and not being part of the sound and fury for a bit... that's well worth the slight risk to me, and I think as adults it is our prerogative to weigh things like this...


I think that is part of what I like about jogging, and why I prefer - or will as my foot improves - jogging in the desert instead of along streets where someone might find me if I had a heart attack or was bitten by a snake. For ADULTS, particularly adults with some degree of experience, opening ourselves up to a world with mild risks but great rewards, the feeling that it is up to me to handle what comes my way.

It isn't danger for the sake of danger. Not an adrenaline rush. More of a feeling that I am part of this world, a world where things don't always go as planned, and using my ability to deal with it. As a kid hiking in the Rincon Mountains east of Tucson, I knew a broken leg would require me to crawl to help - and it would suck really bad to need to do so! I can slip a cell phone in my pocket, but that is kind of like dipping one's toe in the lake instead of jumping in.

Not sure it applies to me and helmets. A little. Thinking about it riding today, I don't believe hitting my head scares me nearly as much as landing in the cactus. Even the rocks are more likely to break my back than my head, and if I had to choose... 

BTW, I've seen studies indicating western riders tend to land hip or back first, while English riders had a higher risk of a forward roll. Maybe part of the western lessons I took, where the instructor kept yelling, "_Get on your pockets!_"? Littauer wouldn't approve, but Larry Trocha would. Not sure how it would work in an English saddle, but playing around today, just a small roll of the pelvis seemed to make a significant change in center of gravity. Not good for max performing a horse, but maybe good for a horse who might stop without asking, or even if a horse stumbled?

In any case, I've ordered another helmet and am sure I'll wear it often enough. But for me - no one else, just ME - maybe I've used it as a shield to keep me from being immersed in my dependency on my horse's good will. Sort of like looking at a national park thru the window of my air conditioned car instead of hiking through it in the heat.


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## bsms

Yes, @SueC. My wife has made jelly from prickly pear fruit, but it is a lot of work. Cattle will eat it if hungry. An old photo of where Bandit and I are doing most of our solo riding - the only place around where I feel comfortable cantering a horse. A nice dirt road, but we obviously have ample prickly pear:








We did a lot of back and forth on this road today. If he can accept things here, we'll start working into the washes. The prickly pear has great flowers, too.








It is quite native here and I respect its toughness. Would hate to land in some, but that is a risk anyone riding around here must take. Or stay home. When we go off trail we sometimes have to turn back because there is nothing but a sea of prickly pear preventing any passage.


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## SueC

Was the letter writer exaggerating at all about all the spicules and how you'd need a mirror and tweezers even after several buckets of ice water treatment if you ate this stuff? It seemed to us sort of like the prospect of eating fugu, but without the protein...

It's very pretty, but I wouldn't want to land in it for sure, and I'm also persuaded I wouldn't be following that particular recipe. Your wife must have a better one. Does she use ice water?


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## bsms

I'll have to ask my wife. I think she did it once and then decided it was too much work. Gathering the fruit is a chore too. Good info here:

https://www.desertusa.com/cactus/prickly-pear-cactus.html










https://www.popsci.com/how-to-remove-cactus-spines/​


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## gottatrot

That's very interesting horses will eat those mesquite green beans.



bsms said:


> For ADULTS, particularly adults with some degree of experience, opening ourselves up to a world with mild risks but great rewards, the feeling that it is up to me to handle what comes my way.
> 
> It isn't danger for the sake of danger. Not an adrenaline rush. More of a feeling that I am part of this world, a world where things don't always go as planned, and using my ability to deal with it.


That's how I feel. Pushing myself whether on a horse or in some other situation is rewarding. It brings growth, not always in skill, although that often does come along with it. But growth in other ways, such as getting coping skills, learning perseverance and patience, and sometimes you just see the world in a different light afterward. I'm definitely not an adrenaline junkie. When I've had huge adrenaline rushes from a car accident or getting caught up in 90 mph bumper-to-bumper traffic outside Miami, or stuck driving in a deadly storm, it has been something I would have avoided at all costs. But evaluating risk and then accepting some in exchange for a reward is different. That is very exhilarating. 

Sometimes I've made a mistake such as when I swam a half mile across part of the Columbia river on a windy day on the wrong tide, as a teen. Without telling anyone where I was. Or playing with someone's untrained horse before I knew much about handling horses, and just missing having my skull kicked in. But I feel sorry for kids nowadays that never walked across a rickety bridge that was ready to collapse, or swung across a ravine on an iffy rope swing that some other kid tied the knot on. Kids don't really understand the risks, but that was how I learned to attempt to evaluate things as an adult.


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## bsms

gottatrot said:


> ...But I feel sorry for kids nowadays that never walked across a rickety bridge that was ready to collapse, or swung across a ravine on an iffy rope swing that some other kid tied the knot on. Kids don't really understand the risks, but that was how I learned to attempt to evaluate things as an adult.


A few months back, some students at the University of Arizona went to an on campus presentation by the Border Patrol. They began screaming "Murder Patrol" and prevented the students attending the meeting from learning anything about the Border Patrol. The guys I know on the Border Patrol are great guys being overwhelmed right now. But politics aside....

One of the things the protesters said afterward deeply disturbed me. They said the university was supposed to be a "safe place" where the students wouldn't have to be exposed to bad people or ideas. They thought the role of the University was to guard them from the outside world.

In their defense, that is how the schools seem to treat students. But a university ought to be the exact opposite. Intellectually, a university ought to be a very dangerous place! All your ideas should be challenged. Threatened. The schools should help you gain the experience to navigate a dangerous world - much like my job as a rider includes giving Bandit progressive challenges and helping him learn how to properly assess dangers and choose appropriate, helpful responses! 

A university should not be an intellectual corral. A corral has its uses, and horses like having a safe place to spend their time, but you can't get a good trail horse without leaving the corral and arena. This is NOT our job, not as riders, as parents, as teachers, as adults:








Helmets? By themselves, they have nothing to do with this post. Helmets are reasonable parts of a risk-reduction strategy. They are NOT bubble wrap for riders. You couldn't pay me to take a green horse out into the desert without one. I know guys who do all the time. But for me? No thanks. And helmets will remain a part of my risk reduction strategy every time I plan to ride on a road. Bandit can get very tense very fast in a human neighborhood. Tense, scared horses can make very bad choices. I know good riders who couldn't imagine putting a helmet on, and good riders who won't mount up without one. I understand both although I'm closer to the helmet camp.

But as a society, we've lost a lot of critical thinking skills by trying to eliminate risk instead of accepting some. “_There is nothing more exhilarating than to be shot at with no result._” ― Winston Churchill. Perhaps, but my own experience is that nothing FOCUSES the mind like the possibility of dying. Or broken bones. But we've insulated people from risk to the point we have people dying from walking backwards off of cliffs while staring at themselves in the cell phones!


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## SueC

@bsms and @gottatrot, I heartily agree with your last posts... society is actually getting dumbed down by all this, and people are not reaching their potential, or really living.

Thoreau said something that I put up on my wall as a young person:

_“I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately, to front only the essential facts of life, and see if I could not learn what it had to teach, and not, when I came to die, discover that I had not lived. I did not wish to live what was not life, living is so dear; nor did I wish to practise resignation, unless it was quite necessary. I wanted to live deep and suck out all the marrow of life, to live so sturdily and Spartan-like as to put to rout all that was not life, to cut a broad swath and shave close...” _

I think it was brought to my attention by the film _Dead Poets Society_...


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## Knave

I love this discussion! I so agree that the idea of protecting everyone is actually harming them. I get irritated with the way our culture is going. I don’t want to be responsible for other people’s actions, and I do not want them responsible for mine!

My lifestyle is fairly dangerous in the comparative. My grandfather told me one day that if he were now raising children he would pressure them against cowboying. I think he was including ranching, not just the job ‘cowboy.’ He said it is a very dangerous job with very little payoff.

I thought about what he said. It is dangerous. Myself and many friends I know have been careflighted away after a mistake on a job. Many big wrecks happen without medical interference, although there probably should be. 

Horses can be dangerous; cows and equipment can be dangerous. Even then, we place our children into the same environment. Although we try and help them along, they have days they sink and days they swim. Teenagers have a mentality of pushing the limits. You tell them, “Don’t do that! You are going to get hurt.” They come back at you, “Oh, I am fine. I know what I am doing.” 

Sometimes they have to have those wrecks to learn. It is only then they become more cautious. I wonder though if that is exactly how it should be. I wonder how society can function if they do not know how to think about things.

As far as grandpa’s idea goes, I think he is both right and wrong. “The Branding Pen of my Father” explains my feelings about it.


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## SueC

To pick up on a recent topic, please note that helmet wearing _still_ isn't compulsory for Bavarian Ox Racing:










It really would clash with the traditional dress... :Angel:


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## bsms

^^ True, but then, hell will freeze rock solid before I ride in lederhosen!


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## Knave

Lol, maybe Pepper could learn a new game!


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## SueC

I think there are worse things than riding in Lederhosen. At least your skin is well protected from chafing in them. Assuming you've kept them nice and soft. :Angel:

Could be quite a fashion statement in a dressage test! :rofl:

And then you can't wear a helmet, because that would be an anachronism...


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## bsms

Quick update: Rode Bandit solo in the desert this morning before 8 AM. It was already hot but cooled noticeably when I mounted up and we left the houses behind. Short ride. He was an emotional 3. Stayed there. Paused to look over the nearby wash for 30 seconds, and I think he just felt like looking. Not tense. At the 20 minute mark, I told him he was so good that we could just head home. Spent just 25 minutes riding, but it was 25 minutes on a relaxed, calm horse. We don't need to stretch his emotional envelope every ride...

And we were both dripping sweat by the time we got home. The rest of the week is supposed to drop to average southern Arizona temps. :thumbsup:


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## bsms

Short ride on Bandit this morning. Good one. He obviously viewed today's ride as "_The Search for Mesquite Beans_". Something he has lacked is understanding WHY the two of us would go out without any herd to lead. But...heading out to look for treats hanging from the Mesquite trees? That makes sense!

We ate, walked, ate, and walked a little further than we've gone solo before. He looked sideways at a place we often enter the wash when riding with the herd...I kept the reins slack and said OK, and HE chose to enter the wash solo because HE felt like it. We didn't stay in the wash long, although he acted comfortable. When we exited, he blew his nose 8 or 9 times, so maybe he felt more tense than he acted. Or maybe he just needed to blow his nose. When we got here,








he felt the need to go faster. I kept the reins slack, he switched to a canter, I kissed approval and he sped up a little. He felt very well balanced though. As we approached a rocky spot where it might hurt his feet to run, he slowed down on his own. That is important to me. It means he isn't losing his mind with excitement, as Mia often did. 

We walked a little past the rocky section, found a mesquite, I asked him to stop and so he grabbed a few bites. I asked him to head for home and he wanted to canter again so we did. Nearing the top of the hill overlooking the houses, he slowed. A small kid on an ATV was riding up the dirt road toward us. We slid into an open area between the cactus and watched. Like the other ATV riders here, the kid was very polite about my horse - kept his ATV slow, steady, waved and said hello. He looked to be maybe 8 or so, but I'm lucky. The dirt bike and ATV riders in this neighborhood are all horse friendly. No helmet for me today, so I stopped short of the pavement and dismounted before leading Bandit home.

Only 30 minutes of riding, but we went further because we went faster, and Bandit remained in control of himself at all times.

I tried riding two-handed. It took a long time to get used to riding with one hand and now it feels weird to ride with two. Per the loose hand thread, my two handed riding today looked like what I used to do on Mia:








Unlike the loose hand thread, nothing horrible happened due to my bad equitation. Bandit didn't grab the reins out of my hands, bolt, spook, rear, or break my fingers. I didn't snatch at his mouth or jerk him around. I spent more time riding with one hand than two, but that one hand had the reins draped thru my fingers. Not held there.

I'm not trying to offend anyone, but I get frustrated when I'm told riding with contact is "good riding" or "advanced", and that one needs to trail ride with "fists" on the reins! There are times one needs to use fists. I've pointed out that I don't object to rollkur if a good rider says it helps that horse.

But to me, "advanced" riding is training the horse to want to ride with you. I mentioned just a few days ago that I had punished Bandit, using the reins, for calling out to Trooper. Dangerous behavior and I made it clear that was NOT acceptable. We couldn't have had the ride we did today if he had been more concerned about Trooper than the trail!

But day to day? Trail riding? On a horse I've now been riding 4 years? It has been a long slog to get this far, and we still have a long ways to go. But I consider it an advancement - an improvement in our riding - that he can offer a canter and I can say "Cool!" - and we can do both with slack in the reins. I felt very "in control" today because Bandit was mostly controlling himself. To gain real control, I need to give up control - one step at a time - to a horse who is learning to handle the world on his own, and who can find pleasure in doing it with me, not for me.

When riding with one hand today, the excess rein looped on the other side was all that supported the reins running to his mouth. Once in a while - mostly saying it was time to leave the mesquite beans and get moving again - I had to squeeze my fingers. OK, hard. He likes mesquite beans! The rest of the time, the weight of my reins was all that kept them in my hand.

Not the only way to ride. Not good for polo, or race horses, or green horses, or dressage or LOTS of more demanding riding. But *_a_* darn good way to ride down a trail with your own horse. And it has taken real work to get to this point. Bandit isn't remotely the same horse he was in May 2015! Because of him, I'm not the same rider!


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## egrogan

Sounds like a good ride today @bsms! I was laughing thinking I have a lot of rides like you described in the first half of your post, except the scenery is polar opposite. I used to love riding Izzy around hunting for apples in the wild apple trees on fall rides, letting her pick our pace and path in between them (as we crossed hay fields, not desert!). And, I too am lucky that although we encounter a lot of ATV riders, nearly all of them slow to a crawl or even cut their engines entirely when passing. Makes things that much easier when you're asking a horse to deal with a strange wheeled alien heading towards them!


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## bsms

I generally avoid politics here, but saw this and enjoyed it the day after the 4th of July:






Found it while looking for this video to send my youngest. Her scores at DLI (studying Hebrew) are very good but she sometimes finds the military and life on her own...hard. She's seen it before, but I thought I'd remind her:


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## bsms

First arena ride in months. Shortened the stirrups to the Momma Bear setting and they actually felt good. Overall I was pleased with the stability of my lower leg.

This video (1/4 speed) was done to document how Bandit uses his feet at a trot. He doesn't like trotting directly at a human (my wife) and he was also more interested in the horses in the corral than in working the arena. Interestingly, when I first mounted up, he started for the opening on to the street. He obviously expected to go out on the trail today!

I don't see much side to side motion. He leaps into a canter at the end. I've blamed that on his experience cantering with 300 lbs on his back, but maybe he is fairly low-power on his rear end and just finds it helps? I was using a tighter rein than I like, but the arena isn't a trail in the desert where he can figure out where to go next on his own. And...he was more interested in the other horses too...:evil: 

But a nice horse and a good faith effort to do as asked.


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## bsms

A real time video my wife took today. 2 1/2 minutes of Bandit & I goofing off, knocking out a couple of short trots and short canters. That certainly isn't the "thumbnail" I'd choose, but who knows what YouTube's software uses. If nothing else, I guess it illustrates his tendency to lean in a turn.


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## bsms

A final video. I rarely post when trotting. Maybe 1% of the time. This was my attempt at it today, at 1/2 speed:






No, I'm not the Hunchback of Arizona. I like a loose, long sleeve cotton shirt, untucked. It provides shade while allowing air flow...but the air flow can make me look weirder than I am.

A couple of screenshots, trotting and at a canter. Not entirely a western rider I guess:


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## gottatrot

I hope you won't think I'm arguing just for the sake of it, or anything like that. It's not that I think it's important that you agree with my opinion. What is important to me is my own understanding, so sometimes I keep on a subject (stubbornly) to make sure I am thinking about it the right way. In my defense, if I wasn't stubborn I'd never make it with horses like Halla and Hero.

This was a very good video to see Bandit trotting toward the camera.

Anyway, do you think it is possible that you're so used to being "following" through your lower body that you don't feel the side to side movement? My test was to cover up Bandit's legs with my finger and see if I could still tell which front leg was on the ground by watching his barrel and your legs. I could. Your upper body stays very straight, but your legs and stirrups tilt slightly side to side with Bandit's changing diagonals. 

If you cover over his legs during the part of the video where he is trotting straight for it in slow motion, do you think your legs go strictly up and down, or do you see a rocking side to side motion? That to me indicates the horse's barrel movement. Even though it is not very obvious if you look at either your upper body or the horse's legs.

I think his canter departs are great. I've also experienced having my coat or clothing make me look like I'm either hunchbacked or else my back is over arched.


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## bsms

gottatrot said:


> I hope you won't think I'm arguing just for the sake of it, or anything like that. It's not that I think it's important that you agree with my opinion. What is important to me is my own understanding, so sometimes I keep on a subject (stubbornly) to make sure I am thinking about it the right way. In my defense, if I wasn't stubborn I'd never make it with horses like Halla and Hero.
> 
> ...Anyway, do you think it is possible that you're so used to being "following" through your lower body that you don't feel the side to side movement? My test was to cover up Bandit's legs with my finger and see if I could still tell which front leg was on the ground by watching his barrel and your legs. I could...


My many faults do not include getting mad if someone disagrees with me as long as they don't spit in my face, rhetorically speaking, while doing so. And you never do that! So here is another video. I had perhaps a dozen runs and didn't post them all - and this clip is quite short, too (37 seconds). 






In the clip a few posts back when Bandit is trotting AWAY, if I cover my body like you describe, I think I see significant pelvis rotation from Bandit. Much more than I feel. I feel his hips wiggle at a walk, but don't feel it at a trot. When he is coming, I see more shoulder movement than I FEEL, but I think I agree my legs betray some side to side motion. I honestly do not feel it, but then, I almost never sit a trot too. I was in two point today - "standing in the stirrups", since some English riders tell me my two point isn't a genuine two point but some low form of riding - and it is entirely possible his body is rolling more than I feel.

I sometimes have argued a forward seat is kind of like "surfing" on your horse. "Perched" as Santini described it, not sitting. Although perched sounds stationary while surfing implies lots of motion. My goal since I first read Littauer is to let my legs (and hips?) move - the ankles and knees and angle of my thigh - freely so that my horse won't have his back interfered with and I will remain "above" him, even if just 1/4 inch.

Covering everything from the withers up, watching my legs, I'd agree with you. There is some side to side. Maybe not as much as Bandit looks to do. Particularly when moving away, I don't begin to feel what I think I see in his pelvis & hips rolling. So maybe he allows his hips to rotate around freely with less of it carrying through to his back at the withers.

I remain convinced we riders have a very hard time interpreting what our horses do. I've had dressage riders get very mad at me because they "feel" the horse rounding up. I don't deny their feeling, but one's rump - including mine - is a terrible instrument of measurement!

PS: At the end of the clip, he stretches the reins out. That is part of why I keep the reins loose in my fingers. He was a bit tired of my directing him and wanted more. So he took more and I patted his neck a little to let him know I was sorry.

PSS: Looking at it again after posting, I think Bandit may have been saying, "_Right! Let's go right so I can get closer to the corral and my friends!_" Either way, I was holding more contact than I like with him, but keeping him pointed straight at my wife wasn't easy. He wanted to angle off but I needed him going as directly at her as I could get.

If I was much more adventurous, I'd tie a pole to the horn and to the rear of the cantle and watch to see how the pole moves left or right regardless of how my seat moves. But I'm pretty sure Bandit would get very excited if I did that!


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## gottatrot

Glad you don't mind a little friendly debate.


bsms said:


> PSS: Looking at it again after posting, I think Bandit may have been saying, "_Right! Let's go right so I can get closer to the corral and my friends!_" Either way, I was holding more contact than I like with him, but keeping him pointed straight at my wife wasn't easy. He wanted to angle off but I needed him going as directly at her as I could get.


To me it looked like he committed mentally and physically to taking a right hand turn. He's curving right, looking right, thinking right. You look neutral, so he thought you were perhaps going to go along with his plan. Until the second after he decides, "Yes, we're going right," commits fully to the turn, at which point you look left and your body begins to turn left. Then you cued him to go left with the rein as well and he was like, "Whaaa?" But then he obeyed very nicely.  That would have been where Hero would have said "Not my plan!!" and reared or bucked or something.

I was thinking about what you said about perching or surfing. The word perch also makes me think of a stationary object, but who perches more than birds? And they certainly are not stationary a lot of the time.





My goal is to be able to follow the horse with the least amount of interference possible. Very tricky sometimes. I've not found that what they say creates a rough trot or smooth one is necessarily true (conformation-wise). Some horses with short pasterns are very smooth, such as many stock horses. They say a short back can make a rough trot, but Amore just glided and was amazingly smooth even when doing a huge trot. It's not necessarily big action, because my friend's horse stays very still through the body even though her legs move up and down like jackhammers. Her leg movement does not push her body up and down. Bandit looks like he keeps his legs low to the ground, but he looks fairly bouncy. It's not just lateral barrel movement either, because I've been on horses that rolled you back and forth but were very smooth. 

What you need to do to stay with the horse's motion can be different for different horses. I have been wishing there was a universal rule, but I don't think there is. I also don't think it's as simple as just staying relaxed. I think it's about the right amount of relaxation and tension in all the right places. Kids can be the most relaxed riders there are and have great balance, but I've seen them just flop right off the horse because they're too loose. I've also seen tense people get catapulted.


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## bsms

Short ride on Bandit today. Hadn't been solo to the desert for some days. Tried my WHITE helmet today. Sweated something fierce but it was a good day to be wearing it. As we came over the hill to enter the desert, a man with two kids, a stroller and a large dog were coming the other way. Took Bandit to a flat, open spot off trail to let them pass, but Bandit did NOT like them being there. Not a lot of options but we actually did a spin around for the first time in ages, followed by me spinning him back, popping him in the gut, and getting him 1-2 steps closer than we were when we first spun. "_This will profit you not._"

That had Bandit a little worked up. For the first 15 minutes, he was tense and worried about every little thing. It felt GOOD to be sweating in my helmet! I had to push him some to get him to calm down. I couldn't let him give in to his fears. He wasn't at the explosion point. So we worked some until he started to settle and focus.

Only rode 30 minutes total. The second 15 minutes were much better than the first. He went from a 6.5 in emotion to maybe 3.5 by the end, including after a final canter to the top of the hill overlooking the houses. I tried sitting his nervous trots, but it calmed him faster when I switched to standing in the stirrups and petting his neck with my free hand.

Cantering...I was back to the Poppa Bear stirrup setting. What seems to work very well for both of us is what I'd call a 7/8 seat canter, versus cantering in a half seat or full seat. By that, I mean scooting forward in the saddle with long stirrups, then standing just enough to take my weight out of the saddle - but not actually getting OFF the saddle. The result allowed the saddle to slide as needed underneath me without me scooping or following with my hips while still keeping me very close to his back with my legs all around. Felt good to me and he seemed to find it calming. Calming emotionally, but physically encouraging, if that makes sense. My weight was more stable on his back without trying to follow the saddle's motion. I think that helped Bandit's balance - and mine!

At a walk, on a horse who may spook, I understand relaxing in the saddle, rolling the pelvis slightly back to keep the weight of my shoulders a little more behind the thighs. That is a good, flexible position. Walking has 4 beats, the horse isn't thrusting hard with his hind legs...fine. But with speed, the more I ride the more sense it makes to me to maximize the contact between my legs and horse (long legs) while also keeping my center of gravity as fixed as possible, hovering just above his back. Touching his back, actually, but touching without much weight in my seat.

He has to figure out how to use 4 legs in a 3 beat gait covering uneven ground. If possible, I need to take MY variable out of the equation. I largely gave up on practicing a sitting trot long ago. I think I'll do the same with cantering. Sitting the canter is just too much work for both of us. I can walk with my legs. I can run on my legs. Why not ride on my legs? Sitting is a lot of work:


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## bsms

I probably ought to add that, as always, how I approach riding is driven by my horse and my environment. I don't know how I would ride a horse across the English countryside, or in Georgia, or Vermont. I have no idea how I would ride a horse in an endurance race.

Where I ride, a 300 yard canter is about as long as I can get. Most spots are under 200 yards. Many around 50. I'm also a guy past 60 who still likes jogging, which tightens places that ought to be loose when riding. My back is stiff. My horse is often worried. So...we adapt. That is OK, but how we adapt says nothing about how riders should ride universally.


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## Knave

I think that should be a given for all of us! I know how to ride in my country doing my job. I know how to ride the horses I ride to accomplish the fun extracurricular activities that we enjoy. I accommodate them and they me and we accomplish some cool things.

I have no idea how to ride in your country, or in Knightrider’s or SueC’s or Gotta’s or Dragoon’s or anyone else’s. I don’t know what would appease a true English judge or how to best make time on a jumper. I’ve never ridden on a beach or by scary cactus that is out for blood. I haven’t ridden through a town to speak of, or fox hunted. There are so many things I don’t know, and things that I probably could improve on in my own areas. 

I think we all learn different horses and different settings and that is a good thing!


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## bsms

I started to reply to @gottatrot 's thread, but as sometimes happens, the more I typed, the more off topic I got. So I'm putting it here:

--------------------------​
I've heard people say, "I don't rope so why would I want a horn on my saddle?" I don't rope either. But if my shoulders get too far away from the horse's centerline, my body will pull me off the horse. But if I can get a hand on the horn, it is like it was designed to provide good leverage for that purpose. And if I can get a hand there an instant BEFORE my horse spins, then he'll have a hard time spinning out from beneath my shoulders. And if my legs stay on each side of the horse and my shoulders stay somewhere close to his centerline, then I'm not coming off. Without some bucking at least.

Even in bucking, if I can push against the horn, my shoulders won't go too far forward (at Bandit level bucking, which isn't very hard) and I can use the leverage to help raise his head.

I've discovered a third use. It would get me thrown out of a riding lesson I suppose, but works well. Three-point. That is where you stand in the stirrups and the third point is the hand on the horn.

Count Ilias Toptani mentioned making a dummy for a jumping horse. When he got it braced right, the horse jumped better with the heavy dummy than with lighter and experienced riders. His theory was the bracing kept the dummy (me?) from shifting balance forward or back, allowing the horse to concentrate on the jump. He said riders don't have enough core strength to stay as stable as the dummy he made.

With one hand on the horn, standing in the stirrups, I become Toptani's Dummy. Maybe in more sense than one, but oh well. If my horse surges forward or suddenly slows, my torso matches. If he spins away, my shoulders will stay above his back as long as the saddle does! My saddle and horse can move around under me while I stay stable with 3 points of contact - 2 stirrups and the horn.

Think of it as a substitute for outstanding core strength (which I don't have), superb reflexes (which I don't have) and excellent balance (which I don't have). It is a work-around for an old guy who will never be a good rider. I honestly don't enjoy riding enough to do it often enough and long enough to become a good rider. I doubt my body would cooperate anyways.

Not trying to convert anyone. Someday I want to write a short book on how to stay safe and have a contented horse when you only ride once a month. Or once a year. Maybe call it: 

"Riding for the Forever Newbie"​
"_You are stiff, unbalanced and awkward. It used to be your cereal that went 'Snap! Crackle! Pop!' in the morning. Now it is your body when you roll out of bed! You ride a horse once a week. Or month. How to do it?_"

Mia and I when she was feeling very tense years ago. Australian saddle with a horn. I hadn't thought of it yet, but was exploring Western Three Point:








A beautiful horse. I still miss her sometimes. But when the man & kids and big dog were coming towards us yesterday, I was SOOOO glad it was BANDIT between my legs! Even when scared, he never goes stupid. 










:Angel:​


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## Knave

I responded once, but somewhere it disappeared. 

She does have a pretty face, although I think I prefer Bandit’s body.

There are many times we are taught to brace against the horn for exactly what you are saying. When you are cutting on a horse all of the movements are sharp and intense. You brave against the horn to keep your balance to benefit the horse. Same in a slide stop. Not everyone does it of course, but a lot of people do, myself included.

Another time I have heard to simply hold the horn for benefit. When you are riding a colt and he is watching things and a bit spooky. If you have your hand resting on the horn it can be a reminder to not micromanage the colt and to be more considerate of when you pick the reins up.

I include a sell video I made a couple years ago of a horse of my Dad’s to show the bracing in cutting. I am riding him cutting at some point in the video as well.


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## gottatrot

Ha ha, "Riding for the forever newbie." That would be a great book. Maybe it could include some of the common pitfalls for horses such as "things along the side of the road," such as garbage cans and electrical boxes. And "try to avoid aggressive dogs." 

Something else having your hand on the horn can do is help your body use the proprioceptors in your arms, which normally don't come into play as much. That can help the body balance much faster than when only relying on the legs and stirrups. 

The only reasons I know of to not have a horn are for jumping, and for riding fast through low trees. I switched to english when we were jumping over logs and ducking under low branches, both of which can be quite injurious to the sternum and/or ribs when riding with a horn.


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## bsms

From the thread discussing anxious horses but I'll expand a little at the end:



bsms said:


> A horse with some intelligence will notice he smells and hears things that we humans do not. So if the tension is based on smell, he'd be stupid to trust us.
> 
> I encountered that with Bandit this morning. I planned on riding him in our little arena just to make sure he was good with a new bit. He's calm to the point of bored in the arena. But not today. Something to the north or northwest. Smell. He was on full alert, deep breaths, flared nostrils. We did a lot of prancing and dancing. We ended up working the arena east to west, back and forth, sometimes going into the NW corner and sometimes not. After 45 minutes, the steel beam in his back softened. His neck relaxed. We were going on a slack rein. He was still concerned, but not on the edge of flight or flight.
> 
> After the ride, I led him out into the land to the northwest of our arena. He seemed to be trying to find "it" too. Breathing deep, listening, more like a hound dog than a horse. We found a rattlesnake but that wasn't "it". He finally seemed to accept "it" wasn't there.
> 
> It has been several years since he has been so worried. It was obviously a smell, and he knows he can smell things I cannot. Asking him to focus on me would be like telling him, "_I don't have a clue what you are smelling, but in spite of my total ignorance, I want you to trust me._" Maybe some riders could pull it off. His previous owner would whip him hard enough to push him past things. Not me. Some might be able to project such strong self confidence that Bandit would trust them. Not me either. But he went repeatedly into an area that concerned him greatly with just pressure from my calves and some contact with the bit. "Trust but verify" was his motto!
> 
> We didn't quit. Neither did I force him. We worked the edges. I swapped out my cotton hat for my helmet and very actively rode him. He needed to learn that even if I cannot smell something, I can still tell if there is an IMMEDIATE threat. To his credit, he never broke and tried to run away. To my credit, I encouraged rather than demanded. But to some degree, Bandit will never change. He will never be a 'point and go' horse. My farrier said if I wanted that, I needed to sell Bandit & buy a different horse. I don't want different. I want Bandit. I'll take the bad with the good.


The bit was this one. Was shopping for wormer for dogs and saw this for sale for $35:








Smaller and thus lighter, with a bit less leverage, than this one:








Less "signal" as well, but Bandit really isn't into "signal". He doesn't rejoice in subtle movements. As it was, he was so focused on "it" - whatever it was - that he just accepted the bit without thinking. It will be easier for him to eat in this bit too since the shanks are shorter. Sleeves on the shank to protect his lips. Copper inserts into sweet iron. I tasted it before I put it in his mouth...actually does kind of taste nice.

I noticed my position changed based on where the threat was. Heading away, I leaned forward more and brought my feet back - without thinking about it. Headed at it, my feet went forward and I curled under. Going perpendicular, I just tried to stay as balanced and "with him" as I could.

At the end of the ride, when I dismounted, he looked at me and I'd swear he said, "_That was HARD!_" Poor Bandit! I think he found it very hard today, but he gave me his best. Our last pass was one perpendicular to the threat. We moved west with his body pointed West Northwest, then turned into the threat and went east with his body pointing East Northeast. But his back wasn't tight so I decided it was enough for one day.

We've had heavy rain the last couple of days, so maybe it was associated with that. I'm pooped, but I was actually happy with Bandit. He tried. Hard. Who can ask for more than that?


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## bsms

Typo here: "_He was still concerned, but not on the edge of flight or flight._" Supposed to be FIGHT or flight. But then, with Bandit, most of the time "flight or flight" might be more accurate....

Horses aren't big on heroic last stands.


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## bsms

Started this on gottatrot's journal but it makes more sense here:

Short ride on Bandit today, solo in the desert wearing my Tilley hat. He obviously believes bean hunting should be an Olympic sport. He'd be glad to compete in it. I'd guess we were out 30 minutes. 40 tops. Other than telling him it was time to leave the mesquite tree and get moving, I only took slack out of the reins once. He was relaxed the whole time.

He got nervous at the far end of the dirt road. That is our closest approach to some strange horses living just to the north, and it is a place the neighborhood kids have built ramps to jump with their bikes. I wanted him to go between two trees - a wide gap - and he really didn't want to. No helmet so I had even less incentive to fight. So I asked him to turn and we threaded our way across 40 yards of desert, arriving out at the same place we would have been if he had just stepped between the trees. Mutually acceptable compromise. We got to where I wanted using his preference in path.

Apart from that, he had slack reins with his new Billy Allen curb bit. The shanks are short enough to make it easy for him to pick up mesquite beans off the ground. I could do a bit of direct reining when trying to get his face out of the depths of a mesquite.

I asked for and got a canter, then told him "Easy" when we were approaching a place with beans on the ground. Instant reward! What a genius of a rider I am!

I've had so many riders tell me a horse should always go forward when told. Because you TELL a horse. And when there is a reason, when the horse and rider are both doing a job, I think horses understand. But Bandit and I are going for hikes together. The more freedom I can give him, the more he relaxes. But it takes pushing, sometimes, and sometimes using contact and sometimes sticking my heels in him, to get him to where he can relax. But if he can never tell me no, then we aren't a team and are not friends having fun together.

A lot of people here would call Bandit's caution and wanting to have a say bad. How DARE he! Who does he think he is? Disrespectful! He was dissing me, man!

He's not a bad horse. He's not a hot horse either. He is a horse who likes to have a vote. In return, 90% of the time he'll do things just because you asked him to. All he asks in return is a bit of respect for HIM.

Sometimes a horse's problem is like a cactus spine under the skin. You may not be able to see it but it is causing pain. And sometimes you just need to persist until the spine gets close to the surface. Then you can remove it, or maybe a blister will form and pop. When it comes to the surface, you are healing. You can't heal until it comes out in the open.

Some horse bad habits are like that. They fester away underneath. They cause inner tension. Given some freedom, the bad thing will come to the surface. And then it may look ugly. But it is healing. You don't take an axe to a blister. At the most you use a needle. The you give it time to heal.

"_A blister? A BLISTER! How disrespectful to me! How disobedient! I'll teach you to have a blister! I'll beat that blister with a stick. I'll chop it with an axe. This is intolerable!_"

Or, "_There's a thorn in there. It isn't ready to come out on its own and it is too deep for a needle. I won't get mad. Soon we'll be able to get it out. And then it will be gone and we'll both feel better._"

I know which Bandit prefers.


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## SueC

bsms said:


> "Riding for the Forever Newbie"​
> "_You are stiff, unbalanced and awkward. It used to be your cereal that went 'Snap! Crackle! Pop!' in the morning. Now it is your body when you roll out of bed!_"


:rofl:

Hmm, maybe if you put in earphones in the morning with a nice tune, before you even try to get out of bed, you won't hear these disconcerting sounds!

...I limp most days when getting out of bed now; until I've gone to the kettle in the kitchen. By the time I head back, the limping is decreasing. I still warm out of it, which is nice! :Angel:

...I get a grating sound when I turn my head from side to side. I got Brett to check and he has it too, a little bit, he says. Mine is enough to dissuade me from the movement in a quiet room! ...such fun having a body! :smile:


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## bsms

*In Praise of Trooper*​
My wife went riding with me yesterday. I don't think Trooper has been ridden since my youngest left for the military in December. 7-8 months. Trooper doesn't like me and tenses up with me, so I suggested my wife try riding him in the arena for 5-10 minutes. While wearing a helmet.

I helped her on then went to bridle Bandit. By the time I had the bridle on Bandit, Trooper had strolled out of the arena and onto the road. My wife steered him back into the arena. By the time I was on Bandit's back, Trooper was out on the road again, looking at Bandit & I as if to say, "_We're burning daylight! Get it in gear, boys!_"

My wife said she wanted to go ride a trail instead of staying in the arena, so we headed out. I rode Bandit to the dirt road into the desert. He was surprisingly relaxed about things like overturned garbage cans waiting to be hauled back to their houses. Trooper kept pace. I made one comment to my wife about "Maybe you could try..." - and was told in no uncertain terms she didn't need any suggestions from me. She may have ridden 6 times in 2018. Hadn't ridden in 2019.

Oh well. Frankly, Trooper was acting on Thursday as if he had been ridden Monday, Tuesday & Wednesday. He didn't miss a step. He's never needed (or wanted?) much input from his rider:

















Maybe that is his issue with me. I want feedback from my horse and he wants very little from his rider. In any case, a horse who can be Mr Dependable after 7 months without riding is a good horse in his own right. I had a couple of pictures taken with my low quality flip phone but won't embarrass my wife by posting them. She saw the pictures after the ride & said, "_Yuck! I was doing THAT?_" Well, I was taking pictures over my shoulder so....yeah. But Trooper was obviously happy to be out and about. He is not a dead-head. He is also NOT, in any way, a hot horse!

Bandit isn't hot either. He faked being a hot horse 4 years ago because (my theory) he was expected to act hot and was punished for things he didn't understand. He can get elevated at times, but he is fundamentally sane. Cautious, but I can no longer imagine him just taking off or exploding. 

He may hop sideways at time. I've been thinking about what @gottatrot and others have written about types of spooks. Mia was a hard core spinner. Explosively and without warning. It was a startle reaction for her.

Bandit is a "scoot sideways" type, or maybe a "stop forward motion and then ask rider" type. Not a spinner. And the balance that works best for him isn't really a defensive, behind the horse seat. He isn't going to spin 720 degrees. He isn't going to race off mindlessly running. You don't need a deep seat or be in a position to give strong rein inputs. Just stay balanced above him with engaged legs. Not the "draped towels" I've heard recommended. You need some weight in the stirrups to keep the leg and thigh muscles...not tense, but engaged. Ready to be used.

Now...Bandit does sometimes stumble. And being slightly behind is nice for that, but I don't think it is REQUIRED for that. If nothing else, my rein hand is normally directly behind his neck. If he stumbles, my hand will bounce off his neck. And a stumble just is not as violent a maneuver as a sudden spin.

From the Cavalry manual (finally got a pdf of one):








If the guy in the top drawing was straight up from the hips, he'd be good. The Cavalry in the 1930s was too focused on jumping and the forward seat is more forward than really useful for walking along a trail.

I disagree with the second one too, from a trail riding perspective. I think he should drop his stirrups a hole and get his rump a little more forward. He is supposed to be posting but I disagree with how the cavalry taught posting. I think we should generally be well balanced above our stirrups most of the time on a trail, and posting is then a small unfolding motion. Like many sports, the cavalry was too focused on the extremes and not enough of the average. This is just NOT how many people WANT to ride:








If I told Bandit to do that, He'd tell me in great detail where to stuff my suggestion. It would probably involve a place where the sun never shines and the wind only blows in one direction! GOOD! I believe in going AROUND obstacles! Bandit does too...:Angel:

In any case, Trooper will never be my favorite horse. But he is in many ways a very good horse. Not for winning anything, but for average riding by intermittent riders. You DO need to be ready for him to sometimes scoot forward 30 yards, or maybe slow without asking. All riders need to be ready to do that. But he is not going to explode or bolt or buck. He is an uncommonly safe horse to ride. As Bandit is becoming. And that is a good, respectable thing for a horse to be. My wife & I are in our 60s. We do not have a lifetime of riding behind us. Safe horses who enjoy a ride in the desert are a good match for us. And when we got back, both Bandit and Trooper seemed very satisfied with themselves. Happy horses are a good thing.

PS: Summer in southern Arizona. Taken from the church parking lot on the 14th:


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## gottatrot

What kind of weather does that sky mean? Rain? Hail? To me it looks ominous.

It's pretty nice to have a horse like Trooper that will be the same even without frequent tune up rides.


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## bsms

Orange sunsets tend to mean a lot of dirt has blown into the air. In this case, there are thunderstorms and wind creating a strong slanting rain. Sucks to be IN it, but nice to watch from a distance.

A long ago picture of Mia & Trooper:








I tended to view it as Mia = Interested (and interesting). Trooper = BORING!

Maybe my age is showing, but there is something to be said for not needing to monitor your horse's emotions constantly. There is certainly something to be said for not needing to ASSUME the spook and constantly ride in anticipation of it! But I wasn't being fair to Trooper either.

Maybe it is like walking with one's spouse. There is a time & place for walking along, arms around each other and chatting. But there is also a place for walking near each other in companionable silence. My youngest on Trooper:








I'm so used to elevated heads that I tend to think any horse whose ears I can't touch is a bored horse, but Trooper actually isn't bored. Maybe. He certainly acted like he was glad to get out and cover some ground with his buddy Bandit. He is certainly more compliant by nature than Bandit. Trooper isn't big on giving Middle Hoof Salutes. Bandit may, at any given moment, say, "Oh HECK no!" That would be very rare for Trooper.

However, Bandit has learned how to say "Oh HECK no!" without bucking or spinning or shouting. And all three horses are horses who, if they "bolt", will squirt forward 30-50 yards - and then reassess the threat. If their rider isn't squealing and squeezing and panicking, and nothing is chasing them, they will all immediately slow down, take a deep breath, and then be in control of themselves again.

There are horses who cannot reach that stage. Those horses need special riders. And special owners. There are also deadhead, boring plodders. I've tended to put Trooper in that category. That is unfair. He's a quiet horse who likes a quiet, trusting rider. Bandit is a louder horse. He doesn't value subtle. He can do it, but he doesn't value it. But I think Trooper enjoys a trail ride too. He just wants a hands off rider - the kind of rider Bandit might run roughshod over. But as Bandit becomes more confident in himself, he might become a horse my wife could ride. I think some of his "loud" is rooted in worry about what his rider will try to make him do. I think his trend will be to become an increasingly relaxed, confident horse who stays in touch with his rider but who will need less support from his rider as well.

_"The French say, when speaking of a horse that shows restiveness, "il se defend" - he defends himself...There is much truth in this expression, and it is one that riders should constantly bear in mind, for insubordination is most commonly the result of something having been demanded from the horse that it either did not know how to do or was unable to perform..._" - written back in 1868. The longer I ride, the more I appreciate what Major Dwyer wrote. 

Did not know how to do doesn't refer to a cue response. It can refer to feeling safe and secure while going through strange country. And some horses will never be able to do it, just as some horses could never learn to jump a 5' oxer. But after 4 years, I think Bandit MAY be able to learn how to feel safe when crossing new country. We're getting there. It is my job to teach him. One ride at a time.


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## Dragoon

I'll be following in anticipation of the day you post "My wife had a good ride on Bandit today". That will feel better than a first place ribbon at a show, as it will be due to all your work to be a better horseman!

I really like the "il se defend" excerpt from that book. Amazing that it was written so long ago...


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## bsms

On vacation. Was halfway down this trail to day before I realized my youngest and I had done it in the opposite direction a year or two ago. Great trail. My wife & grandkids were with me this time - on the right side near some trees. Amazingly for Sedona, we had 2 people pass us early on and then spent the next 1.5 hours without seeing anyone. Only when we were near the parking on return, after 2 hours, did we run into a dozen or so people. Most Sedona trails are crowded! Click on the picture to enlarge.

















​


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## Knave

I like those pictures. Your wife and grandkids are beautiful.


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## egrogan

Yes, that picture of your wife and grandkids is frame-worthy!


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## bsms

I started this on the thread "Just a trail horse" but I wandered too far so I'm putting it here, with some revision since this entire thread involves Bandit:

I'll share what I mean by training a trail horse to be a trail horse. Bandit has almost never gone out solo. Between my daughter & DIL, I've had someone to ride WITH for most of his 4 years with me. My my son & DIL moved to California, my daughter joined the military, so I either need to ride Bandit out solo a lot or give up.

The first solo trip made it obvious he was focused on the horses he left behind. He is the "herd" leader and he was NOT comfortable. So for a couple of months, I've been riding him out solo, as much as I though he could handle without tensing up too much, and then coming back. Even if it meant only 20 minutes. It coincided with me giving up wearing a helmet, which added to MY tension.

My goal isn't an OBEDIENT horse giving in to riding out alone, but a WILLING horse who is comfortable riding out alone. After 2-3 months of SLOWLY expanding our horizons, he seemed fine today - so we pushed out an extra mile. And he stayed relaxed, looking around, aware if anything green to nibble on was near...but he rode today like he does when there are other horses. Relaxed and acting confident.

Horses being horses, we'll need to keep plugging away at it. Next ride may not be so relaxed. But if I wanted him COMFORTABLE, not just submissive, I needed to lay a solid foundation of "_This is safe. The other horses will be there when you get back. You are NOT alone. We are TOGETHER. Relax, look around, enjoy the view and feel good._"

Some horses don't take much training to get out solo. Bandit has. It was our best - and longest - solo ride to date. Best not because of DISTANCE, but ATTITUDE. Bandit was acting - well, at least 90% of the time - like he was happy to be there. Like we were doing normal things and he felt good about it. There were a couple of times where I needed to reassure him and push him - a little, but push him - to get him past a sticky spot. I'm sure anyone reading this thread will know that horses have sticky spots for reasons that are often unknown. But if you can scratch their necks, squeeze with your leg and say, "_Come on, boy, this isn't that tough!_" - and they go - then that is a wonderful thing.

At our furthest point out, there was a small clump of green grass. It has rained a lot the last few weeks so we DO have grass in the desert right now. I gave Bandit full reins, leaning forward a bit, and he ate. As I looked around...big piles of prickly pear around us. If Bandit suddenly panicked, we'd be deep in the cactus. If I came off, for any reason, I'd almost certainly land in a thousand spines. But...Bandit inspires confidence in a way I never felt with Mia. So he grabbed a few mouthfuls, then I jiggled the reins, he lifted his head, and we went on.

I realize pretty much everyone who reads this post will have done at least 10 times as much, regularly. But it has taken time for me to shed some of the fear I had with Bandit, and for Bandit to shed some of the tension from his previous life. 90% of the time, he was confident and relaxed, and that is wonderful. *When he is, I can be.
*
What we did today has nothing to do with rein effects, or flying lead changes, or 'on the bit', or almost anything that is called "equitation". But I'll be darned if it isn't training and it isn't work! Teaching a horse that obeying is fulfilling, that it is enjoyable, that doing things my way will make him feel GOOD about himself, and that it won't require him to suppress his fear or worries...maybe others find that easy. I don't.

But when a horse who has often been tense says, "_I've got some grass to eat. You keep a lookout, Bob. I'll eat. Let me know when it is time to move on._"...well, that is a victory. Not saying Bandit and I are ready to face any challenge. But he felt good today. And so did I.


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## Dragoon

Awesome post!

I consider my greatest accomplishments so far, horse-wise, to be creating a happy and willing ride. Relaxed horses are the best to ride! I remain unimpressed by how high someone can get a horse to jump, or to run frantically. That is easy, just get a big stick...


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## Knave

There is definitely something to that @Dragoon. I can’t say I’m always unimpressed with someone riding a horse who isn’t calm, because some horses are really difficult and they are getting by and I’m impressed, but I am never impressed by having to ride one like that. Calm and willing horses are a joy for anyone to be around, and one should take pride in that.


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## SueC

This is a bit late, but those photos!  That landscape!!! When I clicked on the photos and they filled the screen (desktop), it was just "wow"!


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## bsms

SueC said:


> ...You can make a nice tomato/onion/bell pepper soup that you can eat until it comes out of your ears and it won't make you fat, it will just load you up with antioxidants, vitamins and minerals - do you want the recipe? I make it when I want to really fill up on something.
> 
> Good-quality protein, every meal: Nuts, eggs, bits of cheese, fish, lean meat, etc. Ricotta has stacks of whey protein and little fat and tastes great on toast with some stewed fruit on top! And no sugar needs adding when you stew ripe fruit; just sprinkle some cinnamon. Don't buy the commercial crap, the fruit is floating in sugar syrups...
> 
> Main thing is that you feel healthy and good and happy, and that you move a lot, and eat _foods_, rather than non-foods (the thing many nutritionists forget about). The less refined it is, the better!


Yes, I'd like the recipe. My wife & I view this more as a change in lifestyle than a "diet". As a rule, I want a short food chain: fewer steps between me and what I eat. There is a ton of conflicting advice. Gary Taubes' Good Calories, Bad Calories: Fats, Carbs, and the Controversial Science of Diet and Health does a good job reviewing studies and discussing the politics of food "science". I think he overstates things and misses a few points, but when the government started controlling most of the money spent on research, research became politically biased. Not in the "Republican/Democrat" sense, but researchers profited if they toed the correct research line. And of course, the press doesn't have many people capable of writing a news story on a scientific article. There are a few foods I plan to avoid: wheat, potatoes, sugar.

My body is adapted now to experiencing hunger and it isn't a big deal. I can run 3 miles after not eating for 20 hours and my body works fine. Rather than worry too much about all the conflicting studies (many poorly designed), I prefer to think about eating things with a short processing chain, eat a variety, enjoy some cheese or nuts as a snack - and sometimes just be hungry for a while.

Something I hadn't realized is how many problems are related to eating a lot of processed foods. And how adaptable the human body really is. Taubes mentions populations that eat almost all meat and are very healthy. Another remote population had most of their calories coming from coconuts, and yet had almost no heart conditions or obesity and very low rates of cancer - until they were moved to the cities. Our bodies seem to be able to adapt to a wide variety of "existing in nature" foods, provided they are not eaten in grossly excessive quantities.

BTW - my wife has not had the weight loss she desires [she is also eating a higher carb diet than I do], but she feels better and says her gout (arthritis) seems to be going away. She picked up the gout when the doctor put her on statins to lower her overall cholesterol - although overall cholesterol levels have no correlation with death, heart attacks or stroke for women, and particularly not for older women! Six weeks later, she was complaining about joint pain. A month later, she told the doctor she was quitting the medicine. Most of the pain stopped, but she has continued to have bad days - thanks to modern medicine! She looks fitter, and fit trumps weight. The fact her joints hurt less now is enough that she wants to continue...although she is still reluctant to eat cheese or many eggs because of "cholesterol". Her nurse training, which was bad training IMHO.

The number of doctors who blindly follow medical advice without actually thinking about it or their patients is amazing. When my wife worked as a home health nurse, she learned to ask lots of questions about prescriptions. She found patients were often taking 2-3 doses of the same medicine prescribed by different doctors. Like many things in life, it is up to US to take control of our own lives because the people who tell us what to do are clueless. Well educated, but fundamentally stupid. Sounds harsh but...:evil:

[ / rant ]


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## bsms

BTW - a while back, I was told about a very respected vet who was saying riding a horse above 15% of the horse's body weight caused lameness within 16 minutes. Got hold of a better description. The vet didn't actually say that, although she came close. More important, "lameness" in her study was defined as a change in the horse's movement from the unridden state. So...if a horse had to change its stride because of rider weight - and they all do - then it was "lame". She stopped looking at riders over 18% of the horse's body weight because they were going "lame" within 6 minutes.

Hint: Put a backpack on me and I'll shorten my strides and adjust my body angles too. Doesn't mean I'm harmed.

And between riding and running yesterday, my legs are sore today. OMG! Some soreness in my muscles! The obvious answer is to rest and not do anything that will leave me tired or sore. I'll SLEEP my way to better health!

An interesting quote about journalism:

"_There are three kinds of writers of news in our generation. In inverse order of worldly consideration, they are:

1. The reporter, who writes what he sees.

2. The interpretive reporter, who writes what he sees and what he construes to be its meaning.

*3. The expert, who writes what he construes to be the meaning of what he hasn't seen.*_" - A.J. Liebling​
A professor long ago warned me not to read the conclusions of any study until I first carefully read how the experiment was constructed. He said the clue to the conclusions often lay in how they designed the experiment. That was good advice in the late 70s and still holds true.


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## gottatrot

I'm somewhat against statins. My dad is adamantly against them, because he swears he's seen a few friends that developed dementia as soon as they were put on them. Initial studies seemed to show that memory loss was not related to statins. Yet many people reported this side effect. The latest study I believe said that there is apparently a contradiction of effects, probably from different mechanisms. 

One mechanism is that if you are going to get dementia from narrowed blood vessels and loss of blood flow to the brain, the statins may protect you from dementia. The other mechanism is that for some reason the statins can cause memory loss (possibly related to the fact that brain cells need to produce cholesterol). Just last year the FDA finally put memory loss and confusion as a listed side effect of statins. 

I've had several friends who had debilitating weakness and joint pain from starting on statins. I've also given a patient his first dose of Lipitor ever, and by morning he couldn't bend his knee, which was swollen and tight. I also have one co-worker who was hospitalized with pancreatitis from a statin. 
Nearly everyone who is admitted to the ICU is put on a statin immediately. If patients say they don't want to be on it, I just say "OK," and type in "patient declined."


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## knightrider

[quotealthough overall cholesterol levels have no correlation with death, heart attacks or stroke for women, and particularly not for older women! ][/quote]

Could you elaborate a bit on this? I've been diagnosed with slightly high cholesterol and my doctor and family want me to go on medication. I am trying to control it by eating the right foods. I am dealing with it by not going for another blood test and not having to see if my eating is controlling it or not. I'd like to show my doctor and family that my cholesterol is not something I need to control with medication. And I am an older woman.


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## bsms

I'll find the quote and post it, @knightrider. By tomorrow.


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## bsms

> The headlines are based on a new review which aimed to gather evidence from previous observational studies on whether LDL cholesterol (so-called "bad cholesterol") was linked with mortality in older adults aged over 60. The conventional view is that having high LDL cholesterol levels increases your risk of dying of cardiovascular diseases, such as heart disease.
> 
> Researchers chose 30 studies in total to analyse. 28 studies looked at the link with death from any cause. Twelve found no link between LDL and mortality, but 16 actually found that lower LDL was linked with higher mortality risk – the opposite to what was expected.
> 
> Only nine studies looked at cardiovascular mortality link specifically – seven found no link and two found the opposite link to what was expected.
> 
> ...Four of the study authors have previously written book(s) criticising "the cholesterol hypothesis". It should also be noted that nine of the authors are members of THINCS – The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics. This is described as a group of scientists who "oppose…that animal fat and high cholesterol play a role [in heart disease]".
> 
> https://www.nhs.uk/news/heart-and-l...o-link-between-cholesterol-and-heart-disease/


https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/6/6/e010401.full

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/06/160627095006.htm

----------------------------------------------

A U-shaped curve is pretty commonly found, so very high cholesterol may be an issue. They put my wife on statins with a total cholesterol of 200, which is at the lower end of the curve for lowest mortality:

"_U-curve associations between TC levels and mortality were found in both men and women (Fig. 2). The TC range associated with the lowest mortality was 210–249 mg/dL (Supplementary Table S2). When age was further considered, U-curve associations were observed regardless of sex or age (Fig. 3), and the optimal TC range for survival was 210–249 mg/dL for each age-sex group..._"









https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-38461-y

From 1991, New England Journal of Medicine:

"_A large population-based study of middle-aged men in Scotland demonstrated no relation between total cholesterol levels and mortality from all causes over a period of 12 years. In fact, mortality from all causes tended to increase when the base-line cholesterol level was below 5.0 mmol per liter. Follow-up data from the Framingham Study indicate that there is no relation between high cholesterol levels and mortality from all causes among persons over 50 years of age_."

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199101033240116

From JAMA, 1987:

"JAMA. 1987 Apr 24;257(16):2176-80. Cholesterol and mortality. 30 years of follow-up from the Framingham study. Anderson KM, Castelli WP, Levy D.
Abstract

"_From 1951 to 1955 serum cholesterol levels were measured in 1959 men and 2415 women aged between 31 and 65 years who were free of cardiovascular disease (CVD) and cancer. Under age 50 years, cholesterol levels are directly related with 30-year overall and CVD mortality; overall death increases 5% and CVD death 9% for each 10 mg/dL. After age 50 years there is no increased overall mortality with either high or low serum cholesterol levels._"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3560398

The Framingham study was the one the book mentioned as showing no increase in mortality for those over 50. There was an increase in heart disease but a decrease in cancer which essentially leaves a level playing field. If you have heart disease already, then reducing that risk may be more important. If you have neither heart disease nor cancer, then...I guess it is a gut check. A more detailed review of the study can be found here:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2211816013000033

There is a pdf I cannot copy from discussing cholesterol and lung disease here:

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/b9b5/084feb66a006e08acab7cad1d17d29cf6fd1.pdf

"_In Ireland and Europe generally, it is recommended that levels of cholesterol in the blood should not be above 5.0mmol/l ( about 190mg/dl). Anything above this is said to increase risk of heart disease or stroke.

In the Scandinavian study, researchers found that having higher-than-recommended levels of total cholesterol was associated with a reduced risk of death.

For instance, men aged between 60 and 70 with total cholesterol levels ranging from 5.00-5.99 mmol/l had a 32 per cent reduced risk of death than those with total cholesterol levels of less than 5.0....

...The review, lead by Dr Fiona Taylor from the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine found that in high-risk populations – (those who had suffered a heart attack or stroke) the benefits from taking cholesterol-lowering medication are without question.

But in terms of lower-risk populations, the researchers said that “the effect of cholesterol-lowering medication is not large enough to justify the cost/effort and risk of adverse effects”.

One thousand people had to be treated with cholesterol-lowering medication for a year to prevent one death."_

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and...rol-linked-to-reduced-risk-of-death-1.1556553

----------------------------------------------------​
I'd want to talk to my doctor carefully before starting statins. In some cases, I think statins may be a life saver. But my health check-ups are done in the military system by a PA, not a doctor, and the PAs I've dealt with have shown no understanding beyond "cholesterol bad". 

If my doctor or PA just said, "_Your cholesterol needs to be below 200_", I'd run away. If he (or she) said, "_Here are the risk factors, and because you have A, C, E & F, I think statins would help you_", I'd pay attention. If told, "_Here is how your cholesterol breaks down, and having these subcomponents plus your medical history...._", I'd pay close attention. I want my doctor - or PA - to give me reasons. And there are some good reasons for statins. But telling my 60 year old wife that 200 was too high? Sorry. That is an assembly-line worker, not a doctor!

Taubes' book isn't totally convincing. I think he misses the point sometimes. But I would recommend it as an interesting read:

Good Calories, Bad Calories: Fats, Carbs, and the Controversial Science of Diet and Health by Gary Taubes


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## tinyliny

I was recently put on statins. She said the total was just over 200, and since I had high markers for inflammation and some history of heart disease from Grandparents. , doc wanted me on statins.
I had heard about them causing muscle aches, and the first one was Lipitor (Atorvastatin). It caused me to be stiff and sore.


Then she put me on Rosuvastatin, which seems to have no such noticeable affect. But, I DO feel like my mental acuity is dimming. I have a much greater difficulty remembering words now. I wonder . . . .


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## knightrider

Thank you endlessly, @bsms, for all that information. Now I have something to show my doctor and family. My cholesterol is 220, I believe, and I think I can control it with diet. Now, it seems, I don't need to control it. If I am eating healthy, which I do, I can justify not taking those statins. I really appreciate your doing all that research for me. I can print it out and show it to folks.

I might even get brave enough to do another blood test since they hopefully won't be haranguing me about taking statins.

Who knew you could benefit in so many ways from Horse Forum???


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## bsms

Cholesterol is a complex subject, much more so than I realized. It affects a lot of diseases. That is why lower cholesterol may be good for one thing and harmful for another. A few years back, my total cholesterol was 190. The PA said he was thinking of putting me on statins because "200 is the bad number".

I take blood pressure medicine. I started taking it when I was running 5 miles a day and weighed 150. Diovan lowers my blood pressure by 15 points. I understand why blood pressure medicine helps. My resting pulse is 55, so maybe my heart is fairly strong and it just likes to push hard a few times. But the medicine works well, has no side effects in me...and I'm pretty sure 150/95 puts more strain on my body than 135/85. So I take the medicine.

But take statins because "200 is the magic number and you are getting close"? Because "200 is the bad number"? I am certain statins can really help SOME people. But I want a detailed explanation and the folks I run into in the military health care system don't like being asked for an explanation. "_Me Medical. You Moron._"

This is what the American College of Cardiologists say:

https://www.acc.org/latest-in-cardi...-guideline-on-management-of-blood-cholesterol

Won't cut & paste because it is long and detailed. I suspect I would be more cautious about statins than they are, but they do not agree with "_200 is the magic number and you are getting close. Me Medical. You Moron._" I still worry, though, that the research money in government and pharmaceuticals drives an agenda. As does the reality that a large percentage of the population does eat too much, including lots of sugar, and doesn't exercise - and those people impact the risk calculations. Am I at risk because 10,000 strangers who are NOT like me are? If they share one characteristic, and only one, should their risk guide my life?

Still, this is what the Mayo Clinic says: "Total cholesterol. Most people should try to keep their total cholesterol below 200 milligrams per deciliter (mg/dL), or 5.2 millimoles per liter (mmol/L)." Yet mortality (not heart attack, but overall risk of death) goes UP as total cholesterol goes below 200. Or above 250, and is pretty flat between 180-260. Do...do most people need to keep their total cholesterol below 200? I'd love to hear why.

However, I do agree with the Mayo Clinic on this:

"_The most important thing that your doctor will keep in mind when considering statin treatment is your long-term risk of experiencing a heart attack or stroke. If your risk is very low, you probably won't need a statin, unless your LDL is above 190 mg/dL (4.9 mmol/L).

If your risk is very high — for example, you've had a heart attack in the past — a statin may be helpful even if you don't have high cholesterol. However, everyone is different. Talk to your doctor about your specific risks and benefits._"

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/high-blood-cholesterol/in-depth/statins/art-20045772

The tough part is finding a doctor or PA who will TALK....


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## knightrider

Well @bsms, again I thank you! Looks like I should get a CAC test. I didn't even know what one was until I read your articles.

My dad died at 72. He had been mowing pasture on our cattle farm and came in to eat lunch. He told my mom he was feeling kinda tired and would she call him when lunch was ready. She went to tell him lunch was ready and he was dead from a heart attack. She insisted on an autopsy because he was in excellent health.

In a way, I'd rather like to do what he did. Maybe not at 72 because my kids are not fully grown yet, but so much nicer than suffering for years like my mother and my mother in law did. A full happy active life and then . . . heaven.

Thank you for your wonderful journal and knowledge.


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## bsms

Back to horses and an interesting and very good ride:

My wife offered to ride with me for the second time in 2 weeks - and the second time since Fall 2018. And Trooper's second time out since December 2018. For someone who rarely rides, I think she has a very natural and good position. And she actually acts more confident and happy without a helmet. She says wearing a helmet makes her afraid, because if it isn't dangerous, why does she need a helmet?








We made some stops along the wash for the horses to eat and us to relax with them:








When we reached this point, Bandit became concerned. You cannot see it, but 200 yards ahead is a road where semi-trucks run and traffic goes 60+ mph. I figured he was concerned about the noise of the unseen traffic and urged him forward. 








Moments after the above picture, Bandit did a 180 and tried to beat a retreat. He hadn't done that in over a year. Happily, it ops checked the idea that the Poppa Bear stirrup position and a relaxed but engaged leg would handle things. Now I know. Took the slack out and stopped him before getting to Trooper and turned him back 180. "_This will profit you not._" We advanced to this point, cautiously:








Bandit balked. "_WE SHALL NOT PASS!_" - in his best Gandalf voice. My wife, behind me, said Trooper was concerned. We waited. I took the picture. And (of course) about a half second later, the largest javelina I've seen darted across the wash 50 feet ahead of us! Wiki says they top out at 100 lbs, so I guess it WASN'T 200 lbs. Just looked like it to me! Wiki picture:








​Good Bandit! Sensible Bandit! We waited to see if any others crossed, but it was a single javelina. We then moved forward and Bandit trotted past the crossing point. He was a bit put out, I think - maybe "Stupid Bob! Foolish Bob!" - and so my wife, on her second ride in a year, took the lead on Trooper on his second ride since December.

We turned out of the wash, which crosses the road ahead, and started to pick our way across the desert. Sometimes my wife led. When she would dead end, she'd let me know and Bandit & I would take the lead. When we would dead end, she would take it. Lots of cactus and brush and it was hard to pick our way through.

I still think she looked very natural on Trooper:

















When Bandit & I led, Bandit was as involved in picking a route as I was:








If you look closely, you can see a ton of cactus here. We finally hit a spot where there was brush with dead branches above his belly in a line ahead, but then more open terrain if we could get through:








I told Bandit it wasn't going to get better until we pushed through. At one time, Bandit would refuse to go through brush. But he has more experience, so he looked, saw the clearing ahead, and then HE pushed through. I recommended. His decision to accept it. And Trooper followed close behind so Bandit would take the brunt of the poking brush. A horse who has decided pushing through the brush makes sense is a determined and reliable horse. Unlike one being told to go through or else!

We eventually wandered out way back to the small wash. I had promised Bandit if he would trust me, I would take him where there was grass. He was munching down contentedly as I took this picture of my wife on Trooper, who was also eating:








We finished the ride 10 minutes later. It is supposed to get very hot today but we got a good ride in. Trooper was...just a trooper. We will never be pals, but he is a darn good horse. He seems very content working with my wife, who is better are reading and working with a horse than I am - even though she has very little experience.

Bandit? When I got him, he couldn't BEGIN to do a ride like today's. It took training. Not training in cues, but training in how to handle himself and how to work with me, or even ignore me. You don't teach a good trail horse to obey. You teach him to think, and to take responsibility for the ride. To trust you, but not totally. Bandit was just a bundle of good sense and willingness today, in the right amounts of each.

NOT some darn plodding beast, obeying blindly. A thinking, actively engaged horse working as part of the team. He really is a darn good horse too.


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## egrogan

Way to go Bandit. We have an annoying bear hanging around the pasture and roads we ride to go away from home, and Fizz is also telling me she doesn’t want to cross it’s path even when we can’t see it. I now know her “bear was here recently and I don’t like the smell of this” reaction so we’re coming to an agreement about how to handle it.

Glad you and your wife had an enjoyable ride together with your horses!


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## SueC

(Click to enlarge - this is fullsize on the link.)

Nice recipes for @bsms and anyone else - the onion, bell pepper and tomato soup originally came from two pages of recipes I tore out of a British magazine a friend had given me ten years ago, to keep in my recipe folder. I personally ignore the "Detox Diet" blah blah stuff. Like @DanteDressageNerd, I think healthy eating and exercise are a lifestyle, not something you do for 21 days / whatever. Still, I like these recipes because they're real food (not processed non-food), have enough high-quality protein each meal, plenty of F&V, and comparatively few carbohydrates. I think most humans in the West are overeating on bulk carbohydrates, especially refined carbohydrates like sugar, white flour, white rice, non-wholemeal pasta, non-wholemeal bread. Those things I try to minimise altogether - and to keep my (mostly) wholemeal grain-origin carbohydrates tailored to my activity levels.

Also to not be too monotonous in what type of grain I eat - in Australia, there is too much emphasis on wheat - I try to eat (wholemeal) wheat, rye, oats, brown rice, corn etc more equally to have better variety. I think the wheat intolerances are largely based on too much of it, too much of it refined, and the modern highly-bred wheat varieties. And beware non-heirloom fruit & veg - modern breeding has mostly been to increase shelf life and sugar content at the expense of taste and vitamin / mineral / antioxidant levels etc. We don't eat hybrid sweetcorn (lollies in vegetable form), we eat Painted Mountain Corn, an ancient variety which far lower in sugar and far more protein/vitamin/mineral/antioxidant dense. People use it for table decorations because it's so pretty - and we eat it, like the Native Americans used to. Very nice on the cob, steamed and served with a bit of butter.



Re the soup recipe, I make it in bulk, using 4 medium onions, 4 red capsicums (bell peppers), and about 1.6kg (4 standard tins here) of tinned tomatoes, or stewed from fresh equivalent (I do that these days; we've still got truckloads of frozen tomatoes from summer). Then stock etc as per recipe, adjusted. Also I like to have basil or oregano or marjoram in it. When you cook in bulk, you always have leftovers to snack on.

The fruit smoothies, you can really make with any fruit you like.

Photos of things we typically eat:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/redmoonsanctuary/albums/72157687753093115

Happy eating!


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## bsms

Did a very short arena ride today. Maybe 15 minutes total, including grazing stops. At 9 AM, I was sweating up a storm. Our canters are mostly in a 45-60 foot diameter circle so I tend to cling with my inside leg and brace out with my outside leg to keep from sliding. Still...this is at the Poppa Bear stirrup setting. I feel like my toes are pointing down at a trot or canter, but the camera says otherwise. My rump looks like it is hitting the saddle. I honestly don't feel it hitting anything unless I'm trying to push Bandit along with my seat. We got one short straight canter in...would like to see if I could get some pictures along the dirt road where Bandit can stretch out.




























Nom, nom, nom...a fellow needs to eat, you know...


























The arena is soooo small that we can't really do too much. After 15 minutes, sweat was pouring down MY sides (although not Bandit) so I quit. It then was time for my wife, alias "Ms Watermelon" to reward the horses. All of them, although only Bandit did any work and I only got pictures of him:



















Drooling:








Don't worry, though. Cowboy & Trooper also got watermelon.


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## bsms

For honesty's sake:


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## tinyliny

So, that's your 'arena'. ABout how long is it? Do you usually go out in the hot sun without long sleeves? When I was riding the Chief Joseph Trail ride, we were in a lot of heat, all day long, and we always wore long sleeves over our Tee shirts. It kept us cooler. I even had a woman tell me that she was cooler by wearing heavy leather ******, becuase they kept the sun even more off her legs than jeans do.


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## bsms

It is 110 feet long at its longest, @tinyliny, and 70 feet wide at its widest. More like a round pen than an arena. Bandit leaves a gap on the sides, so his maximum circle is 60 feet diameter.

It was over 90 and climbing when I rode. Most pictures of me riding include long sleeves. But I knew before I went out that we wouldn't ride more than 20 minutes. Both of us get bored in the arena and the paved road to the desert gets hot fast this time of year. I don't want to ask him to return on the pavement past 9 AM. I think it would burn his feet.

It hit 110 in Tucson (closest city) yesterday. Should top out below 100 tomorrow. I ran yesterday at 11 AM, and it was a brutal run.

For more than 15 minutes out, I'll either use long sleeves or a ton of sun screen. Photos or video are my only chance to see HOW I ride, and I don't get many chances to have pictures taken. And a picture like this is frustrating when I want to see what I'm doing:








So I went with T-shirt only today. Yesterday I compromised...the only picture my wife took on our ride:








Jogging, I use a T-shirt and a ton of sun screen. I've tried long sleeves but it gets too hot. There really IS a reason folks around here used to believe in siestas during mid-day. BTW - that photo was me giving Bandit some extra incentive to go out for a ride in the desert. It is one of the few spots that often have grass. It is amazing how much STUFF he can shove in his mouth with a bit and still eat just fine...


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## tinyliny

Our summer has been very cool this year, after about 5 consequetive years of abnornamlly hot summers. But, I swear, the humidity is bad. I'm always sweating, even in modest temps like 70.


They are starting to put out public service announcements reminding people that asphalt temps can easily reach 'paw-burning' levels when the sun is out, even when it's not all that hot. People take their dogs for a walk, thinking, "what a nice summer day",. and the pooch's little tootsies are burning.


One of these days I'd like to get a video of me riding. It's been probably 6 or more years since.


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## farmpony84

He's a cute little mover. My arena is actually alot smaller than I would like as well. Makes it hard to work on a green horse sometimes....


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## gottatrot

@tinyliny, we have the same extra humidity down here too this year. 

Bandit looks better and better. It's interesting how horses' bodies change with good use and properly fitting tack and riders they aren't bracing against. In the video he looks smooth and relaxed.

The picture with Cowboy stretching his neck up is so funny. He looks like he's worried he'll miss out on the treats.


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## whisperbaby22

A cool summer here, too. There is still plenty of time for a heat wave, but this has been a great summer to ride.


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## bsms

Started classes at the community college this week. Morning classes Monday & Wednesday (and appointments I needed to go to Tuesday) and then 3-hour night classes. Should be in class now except that class won't meet until next week. Happily, we are about to be at the time of year when the prime riding time is mid-day instead of early morning.

But Bandit hasn't been out for a while. And...last night, we had a big thunderstorm. The feed buckets are not quite vertical-sided, but they are close and they had 3 inches in them this morning. Muddy corral. Muddy tiny arena. Muddy trails. And horses who are NOT used to mud! Bandit would rather face dirt bikes than mud. Don't think the reservation had a lot of rain either when he was growing up!

So first good day for a ride and we won't. :evil:

Good news is I was 159 yesterday after our big meal. First time in at least 20 years that I've dropped below 160. Bad news? I'd guess I could go to 140-145 and still be carrying some "prosperity" as a friend calls it. But we're getting comfortable with having one big, varied meal for lunch and a snacking dinner (a couple of eggs, or maybe some cheese and nuts). And no breakfast. In "The Obesity Code", he argues we should be comfortable eating saturated fats, protein and unrefined carbs. Sugars and highly refined carbs? No. But natural carbs like beans and veggies and most fruits? OK. Dairy fats? Fine. Don't stress over calories or low fat or low carb or low anything. Well, maybe low starch & sugar.

Although here's the kicker: If you are not hungry, why are you eating? Or if you are never hungry, why eat like you need to store up for winter? Lots of wild animals would get really fat if it was always summer, never winter. Eat less processed foods. Splurge sometimes. But also accept being hungry sometimes. Maybe he should re-title his book "The Hunger Diet". Sales would plummet. We want to eat what we want, as much as we want, any time we want - and not gain weight. Some can. I sure as heck cannot! And the people who buy diet books are like me.

Want to ride. Stuck not riding. So speculating on diets. Sigh.


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> Although here's the kicker: If you are not hungry, why are you eating?


Something I feel like people need to do is define hunger for themselves. My guess is that we may experience it differently. So we all should understand what actual hunger is in our own bodies.
I hear people saying around me, "I'm hungry." What does that mean? I saw this well fed person eat a granola bar a half hour ago. Surely their stomach cannot be cramping with emptiness and their body requiring food? 

Years ago I fasted for 100 hours, only water. It was crazy, but interesting too. In all that time I can't say my stomach ever physically felt pain. There were feelings of weakness, dizziness, acid burning in the throat, things like that. 

Perhaps since I was anorexic as a teen, my brain does not correlate any feelings from my stomach as pain. I'm not sure. But as an adult, I've had to learn what hunger feels like for me. Hunger is a need for food rather than a want for food. Hunger for me is feeling woozy and weak, unable to focus well. I can push through which means I am using stores of energy that are more difficult for my body to process, and my brain does not work as well with less glucose. 

It seems to me that some people interpret acid in the stomach or gas moving in the intestines as hunger. Or even an emotion from the brain. Something I try to do is say "I want to eat something," rather than "I need to eat something." Unless I actually need food.

Something I also think people don't do is define when they are not hungry anymore, versus full, versus overstuffed. A lot of times as a thinner type person with a healthy BMI, I eat merely until I am not hungry anymore. That doesn't take a lot of food. For example, I thought tonight that since I haven't eaten in a few hours, I should eat something so I can go to bed without waking up early needing food. So I ate a boiled egg with half a pickle. That will be enough food to last me a few hours. I don't need two whole sandwiches, which is what some of my coworkers would eat for a "snack" at work, and I believe is why they are the same height as me and 70 to 100 lbs heavier. 

I understand that what you eat is important. However, the portions people eat seems to be a factor. What I see a lot is people eating two candy bars, two sandwiches, two cans of soup. This amazes me. I would eat two sandwiches if I hadn't eaten all day and also ran a half marathon. Short, sedentary women eat like they're twenty year old male athletes.


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## bsms

gottatrot said:


> ...Hunger is a need for food rather than a want for food. Hunger for me is feeling woozy and weak, unable to focus well. I can push through which means I am using stores of energy that are more difficult for my body to process, and my brain does not work as well with less glucose...
> 
> ...I should eat something so I can go to bed without waking up early needing food. So I ate a boiled egg with half a pickle. That will be enough food to last me a few hours...


Something intermittent fasting has taught me - and that I needed to relearn - is the difference between a craving (strong desire to eat something) and hunger (for me, "gnawing hunger" fits). Cravings are an emotion, lasting 30 minutes, intense ("I want something now!"), and often go away if I have something to keep me busy. Or a cup of coffee, usually.

If it is hunger, it won't go away. It isn't painful, although uncomfortable. I was hungry before I ran 3.5 miles yesterday. I was really hungry after running! But being hungry doesn't prevent me from running. I was feeling light-headed when I got back, so I drank 24 oz of water and had 2 capsules of runner's salt. Then I wasn't light-headed and I ate an hour later.

And once I cut the vast majority of sugar and bread and white rice, most of my cravings went away. Not all. But a craving will go away if I ignore it for 30-45 minutes. Hunger gradually intensifies. It might go away if I fasted for over 24 hours. I might try that sometime. Not yet.

So when I feel hunger, I tell my body, "_You've GOT food. Right above my belt. Use it!_"

I think belly fat is like my freezer. My mouth is like my refrigerator. It is easier to access food from the refrigerator than the freezer. But if I never use any food from the freezer, it will stay fully stocked. Hunger is when my body complains the refrigerator is empty. I then need to point to the freezer and tell it to thaw some food and eat.

When I started intermittent fasting, I did get headaches. So I took Motrin. After a week, I stopped getting hunger headaches. Now hunger is something I will experience regularly. Oh well. It isn't fatal. It no longer gives me headaches and I can exercise hard while hungry. That is what was missing from how I've lived much of my life. I'd eat in advance of being hungry so I wouldn't GET hungry - but hunger is normal in animals.

I lost 50 lbs when I was in the 9th grade and spent much of my adult years trying to avoid fat in my diet. Like the USDA and American Heart Association say to do. And if you cut fat out then it gets replaced with either protein (sometimes) or carbs(often). What I hadn't realized is how many "Low Fat" food have a ton of sugar added! So like many other Americans, I ate less fat and more sugar without even realizing it.

Since retiring from the military, I've also tended to think, "_I'm getting older. If I want a scoop of ice cream before going to bed, so what?_" So what? So it was making hiking and running and riding harder. And I had more cravings even if I was never hungry. The uncles on my Mom's side were all fat, high blood pressure, high cholesterol and didn't have heart attacks or strokes, at least into their late 80s. So I may have the genetics to survive regardless. But I don't want to look or live like they did! If age becomes an excuse, I'll age faster!

I've lost weight before. Always on a low carb diet. But low carb diets are hard to sustain. It gets really BORING. What I like about this approach is I can have carbs. Just not highly refined carbs. And I can eat cheese and eggs and nuts without feeling guilty that I'm eating "fat". And since it satisfies, I don't eat as much, and I also can be hungry and content at the same time.

We have also shifted to saying our one heavy meal a day can include almost anything except sugar or bread. Brown rice, kidney beans. I'm in Arizona, so I cheat sometimes and have flour tortillas - just make sure the flour (or white rice since my wife is from the Philippines) is a minor part of a complete meal.

The other meal is, like you say gottatrot, often small. A couple of eggs. Leftover casserole or stew. One bowl. Heck, we had a big meal just 5 hours earlier! Since starting intermittent fasting, my portions have shrunk. I just don't want to eat that much.

And yes, at some time during the 24 hours, I get hungry. Oh well. It isn't fatal. Most humans have known the feeling before.


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## bsms

Not about horses. Not about diet. Start at 2:15 thru 4:45. It freaks me out.


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## bsms

Got a good ride in on Bandit. We went out solo. He strolled slowly down the dirt road. Didn't worry much until we entered the big wash. The other night's rain had changed the look and smell and left mud still along the sides. But he was...OK. Not thrilled, but OK.

A little ways down, the wash was looking uncommonly flat and smooth. I kissed for acceleration. He trotted, I kept kissing and he cantered. But you know something? His canter in the wash was a "Haul butt" canter, utterly unlike in the arena and even unlike on the short section of dirt road we normally canter on. I tried cantering in a half-seat and quickly decided I might live longer if I scrunched down in the saddle! I got him to slow just before the wash tuns 90 degrees and fills with rocks. We went another minute and turned back. As we came around the 90 degree turn, I had a choice. At the end of the smooth area, there is a large tree branch going out over most of the wash, above Bandit's withers. About my chest high. He was acting excited from the short burst of speed. Would he stop? Or duck under? Or should I walk him?

So I kissed. He jumped and hit the ground at a full-speed canter. Again, a desire to stay alive caused me to get deep. The heck with "saving his back". I was more interested in saving my butt! As we got close to the branch, I bumped the reins. Nothing. Bumped again. Nothing. As it looked like we were about to hit, I bumped again - and he slowed & twisted at the same time. And we walked in the narrow gap between the side of the wash and the branch.

Is that obedience? Or did he just slow and twist because it made sense? Both? Neither? Regardless, my helmetless head and chest we glad we didn't hit the branch. We started heading home. On the short dirt road, he still had his blood up, so we did a very fast trot. He didn't want to canter - the gullies in the road? We had passed a plastic bottle on the ground coming out without a flicker. We did a fast sideways trot past it heading home.

I'm a wimp. I was glad I had my free hand on the horn when he shifted into a sideways trot. Helped keep my shoulders above my hips, which is a good thing.

Anyways, got on home without injury or serious issue. The canters, short as they were, got him in touch with his Arabian half. They used him on the final leg of the relay races and I can see why.

I can see why a lot of people like "collection". A "collected gait" feels so much more controlled. A "haul butt" trot or canter reminds you that the person between your legs has ultimate control. Truth is, Bandit knew what he was doing. I talk about giving up control to gain it, but in truth? Giving up control and trusting your horse is hard. Really hard for me. Judging how many people dominate their horse, I guess it is hard for a lot of people.


> Custer had grown into manhood during the Civil War, when the frantic, all-or-nothing pace of the cavalry charge came to define his life. "The sense of power and audacity that possess the cavalier, the unity with his steed, both are perfect," remembered one Civil War veteran who attempted to describe what it was like to charge into battle. "The horse is as wild as the man: with glaring eye-balls and red nostrils he rushes frantically forward at the very top of his speed, with huge bounds, *as different from the rhythmic precision of the gallop as the sweep of the hurricane is from the rustle of the breeze*. Horse and rider are drunk with excitement, feeling and seeing nothing but the cloud of dust, the scattered flying figures, conscious of only one made desire to reach them, to smite, to smite, to smite!"
> 
> - "The Last Stand" by Nathaniel Philbrick, pgs 46-47


I'm getting a bit old for wanting "to smite, to smite, to smite!" :rofl: Maybe I need to buy a sword!

Now THAT would widen someone's eyes as Bandit & I came around a bend...let the dirt bikes scatter!

He paws in the valley and exults in his strength;
he goes out to meet the weapons.
He laughs at fear and is not dismayed;
he does not turn back from the sword.
-- Job 39​


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## bsms

My wife volunteered to ride with me today. Third time in 5 rides. Maybe? I told her if she let Trooper lag too far behind, he'd canter to catch up. If he did, I said to hold the horn with one hand, hang on, enjoy and Trooper would slow when he got close to Bandit. Happened in the narrow wash near the end of the ride. I could hear her yelling at Trooper. Got a quick glance back. She was hanging on. I don't twist well in the saddle and so by my next glimpse Trooper was slowing. I asked her if she was OK. She glared at me. "_Of course! We were just cantering. Did you see us?_"

I've been married long enough NOT to say, "_Sure was a loud canter!_"

But she was smiling at the end of ride, so...good sign?

Went for a 2.5 mile jog this afternoon. Not sure of the temp but it was like a sauna. Lost 3 lbs even in 20 minutes of running. Can you say sweat? Oddly enough, I'm still jogging in spite of never taking lessons. Sorry. Another thread still rankles, but I ought to know to avoid some threads. Maybe someday I can hire a monkey to climb on my back and tell me how to jog right. Instead of how I've done it for 40 years.


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## SueC

Loved reading that food and hunger reflection of yours a bit earlier (#2006). We watched this last year and it was really interesting - have you caught it yet?


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## bsms

Ordered the DVD thru Netflix @SueC. Don't use them for streaming any more but kept the DVD service. I remember my wife's shock when she found out her "natural fruit juice smoothie" had more sugar than a bowl of ice cream. And mine that "low-fat yogurt" was packed with sugar too! And instant oatmeal? My favorite was really sugar with a bit of oats added. And I didn't understand why I couldn't get the weight off!


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## LlamaPacker

*New Eating Plan Sounds Great -- Way to Go!!!*

I was excited to read this morning, @bsms, in post #2004 about your new eating strategy!

Yours is from a different book, but sounds close to plans advocated in Blue Zones (those with higher rates of healthy centenarians) and in the book that got me started on Intermittent Fasting, which I’ve been pushing on friends and family during last 3 years.

That book is called FAST DIET, by Michael Mosley. A catchy title, but really more of eating strategy than “diet”, detailing huge benefits of Intermittent Fasting, which can be even just one day a week and includes a tiny meal at beginning and end of day, so hardly a "fast". Book can be ordered here (used less than $6): https://www.amazon.com/FastDiet-Revised-Updated-Healthy-Intermittent/dp/150110201X 

Husband and I saw television special on PBS by Dr. Mosley telling about the many health benefits which seem to be derived from allowing body to actually stop eating for extended period of time. 

Benefits seem so great — lower blood pressure, lower cholesterol, lower blood sugars, lower IGF-1 (high levels are linked to cancer), even better brain performance — that about 3 years ago I started immediately with two days a week; husband started a somewhat modified version, shall we say.

We next read a followup in Wall Street Journal saying that studies show benefits even when having just a long period (say 6p-10a) without food ingestion, which sounds like the plan that you are now using and which husband decided was better for him.

Plus, you’ve included many elements of Blue Zone eating for better health, such as cutting out processed foods, refined sugar and increasing whole fruits and vegetables.

I don’t know for sure, but think you might be a middle baby-boomer, similar to me, which puts us in the life stage when suddenly realizing being healthier as aging would be a very good thing.

How can we get the younger generation to realize that sooner? Only by our good examples, I guess, which is why we post here.

For me, the next major step, which created more clearly seen health benefits, beyond simple weight loss, was aerobics, for which I think the discipline became possible from a daily yoga and meditation routine. 

Find that routine under Forum called Life Beyond Horses: Hobbies, in a top thread saying Yoga, if wanting to join my 40-year experiment towards being Healthy2aHundred, or however long we make it. 

Thanks for sharing the lifestyle changes you’re trying. I’m going to love reading about how it’s going for you on this road to healthier!


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## LlamaPacker

Sorry if that seemed a bit like hi-jacking your thread. That's me.... see a door opens, walk right through it. Thanks for inadvertently giving me that opportunity to proselytize and I ordered two more copies of book, as a friend just asked yesterday at golf about the new eating plan after one said is making me too skinny (not good for face when getting old), but I tell them all studies about aging show that caloric limitation improves health. Now you can get back to horse stuff


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## bsms

Journal threads get off topic. That is OK. Diet can be a part of riding horses too. I'm sure Bandit is happier to have 20 lbs less on his back, and maybe someday have a total of 30-35 lbs less to carry.

This Wiki has an interesting chart. The screenshot below comes from it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulin_index








The first column is the glycemic index - how our blood sugar responds to X quantity of just that food. The second is the insulin response - how much insulin is produced when we eat just that food. The third is a sustainment index - who long before we feel a need to eat again. Apples, oranges and pasta hold their own fairly well against meat and cheese - unlike what Atkins and Keto diets tend to teach.

Another surprise - may have mentioned this before - is that the white flour tortilla has a glycemic index of 30 instead of flour bread's 100. Why? Because the tortilla has flour and lard, and the presence of lard changes how our body responds to the white flour. The article below has a good review of why glycemic index is not, by itself, very useful:

https://paleoleap.com/6-things-to-know-glycemic-index/

Cutting added sugars and most heavily processed foods makes a lot of sense to me. It was quite a shock to my wife to see how much simple sugar her fruit smoothies had. And to me to see how much sugar my "healthy" instant oatmeal came with - like eating a candy bar!

Once one does that, *could a good diet be as simple as eating mixed meals that are not low-fat or low-carb but mixtures, cheerfully including fats, and not eating again until we are hungry?* I had 2 scrambled eggs for dinner last night at 5 PM, had a handful of nuts this morning, and I'm not even hungry at 10:30 AM. Well...just a little, but it won't bother me if we eat our main meal at 1 PM today. Could that be normal?

I think Bandit is shaking his head yes. That, or the flies are bugging him...:wink:


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## bsms

My wife & I just finished watching "That Sugar Film" on DVD. I was surprised at how entertaining it was while also discussing how the body processes fructose. My wife enjoyed it enough to freely watch the entire thing, @SueC. My son was slender when he lived with us but packed on the pounds as an adult. I wish I could get him to watch it but...let's just say he's not receptive to those sorts of discussions. They give the grandkids "Frosted Flakes" for breakfast because the kids will then "make their own breakfast". The kids will pour themselves a bowl that is at least 2 serving sizes, so at least 52 grams of total carbs including 20 grams of added sugar. 5 teaspoons. But 2 grams of protein and 220 calories....

ARGHHHHH!!!!!!!! For comparison, a Snicker's bar has 250 calories, 32 grams of carbs, 4 grams of protein and 12 grams of fat. It might be a better breakfast. Not good mind you, but not much worse! But to say something is "criticism" and not received well. Meddling. Such is being a grandparent.


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## SueC

Oh dear, @bsms , that's so difficult! ...and isn't it sad when a chocolate bar has more nutrition in it than someone's breakfast? We would have had the opposite problem, had we been able to have children. My mother pushes sugar on any kid that enters her house. You can just imagine the, "You're so mean, Granny's so nice, what's wrong with you?" discussions that could lead to...

Family, that's such a difficult subject. It's much easier with friends - you choose them, and you don't have to live with them! ;-) Animals are even better, because they don't tend to get weird on people - not without an actual, mostly physical cause... :Angel:

It's also really hard to watch people stuff their already obese chihuahuas with cake... Stop the planet, I want to get off! ;-)

I'm glad you both had a good time watching that film. It's really informative and also so well put together. Do you want to have some more fun around food-related viewing? Because I can highly recommend this food history series called Supersizers Go - and it's all on YouTube too:






They do all the major historical periods, it's really educational - and funny - and thought-provoking.,,


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## egrogan

The Supersizers was quite possibly in my top 5 tv shows of all time! Couldn’t get enough of it.


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## bsms

Part of a post I made on gottatrot's journal. Repeat it here because yesterday's ride was a good learning moment for me.


> Between weather and school, Bandit hadn't been out last week. Did 30 minutes of riding in the arena because the ATVs and motorcycles were out on the trails (I could hear them). We did brief canters, brief trots, multiple stops to grab a mouth of the grass growing from the rain. For canters, since it is so tight a circle, I've taken to riding him out to the road, turning him, asking him to stand, and THEN asking for a straight canter. For all 100-110 feet max. And then a munch stop. He understand this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> much better than this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I too fall into the trap of "_But what I want to do..._" Incidentally, he then canters much more like his trail canter. Which is what I want to practice. Not the "Canter in a tight circle" canter that teaches us both bad habits!
> 
> He was totally fine with that. "_A brief canter for you. Then a few mouthfuls for me. A fast trot around for you. Munchies for me. Life is good!_" But of course, no one teaches lessons in riding that way! I've watched plenty of YouTube lessons, read plenty of books, and not one has ever said, "_Make sure your horse feels good about what you are doing._"
> 
> Too many instructors have no business instructing ANYTHING about horses. Far too many lessons are about how to ride badly. Hard to blame the students for learning what an instructor with 30+ years of experience (and lots of ribbons) teaches them.


Cantering in our tight arena leaves me hooking my inside leg to hang on while creating a lot of work for him. Since my goals are focused on what we will do on the trail, shouldn't I practice a trail-like canter instead of circles?

I briefly experimented with raising my stirrups a hole. Dropped them quickly. A western saddle isn't designed for getting your butt out of the saddle and to the rear. Bumps the cantle.

A big part of my objection to "dressage" is that it is oversold. Too many say it is the basis for all good riding. That dressage training is NEEDED. Beneficial to anyone who tosses a leg over the horse. And while it may be a fun way to interact for an experienced rider and a horse, this western rider doesn't see it as a foundation for all riding.

As fond as I am of Littauer, he also oversold forward balance and the Forward System of riding. It is stirrup-centric, he said. Yet good riding is neither stirrup-centric nor seat-centric, but using BOTH regularly as what you do changes. And while moving our balance forward to match the horse's is nice, there is nothing wrong with being an inch or two behind. 

After the first 15 minutes yesterday, I shifted the saddle back an inch or more. It had stayed in place with a somewhat loose cinch but Bandit just seemed a little unenthusiastic. Moving the saddle an inch back SEEMED to make him happier. Felt good to me too. So my next few rides I'll try having the saddle 1.5 inches back from "normal". I use the end of his mane and the front edge of my saddle for markers so I can position it precisely before tightening the cinch. Bandit seems to have a broad sweet spot where a loose saddle will stay steady on his back. Or...maybe I'm actually doing something right and not moving around enough in the saddle to shift it. As much as I like Littauer, for our purposes, being a little further back may make Bandit happier. And a happy, free-flowing horse is the goal. Even if that means we don't practice many 45 foot diameter circles at a canter. Because really? Bandit doesn't enjoy those. Tolerates them because he's just a nice fellow. But doesn't enjoy them. Except for once in a while when he offers to do one. ONE. Not a bunch.

MOUNTING: Got a little mounting practice in, using the step stool instead of from the ground since we were in the arena. What I'm shooting for is to be able to mount using just one hand. With the reins and a bunch of mane in my left hand, Bandit doesn't mind me pulling. If I make my primary direction of mounting forward, rather than across, I can often mount without using my right hand at all. The less I tug on the saddle while mounting, the more stable it stays. And Bandit likes stable.

So much to work on! *Over 10 years of regular riding and I'm still practicing to get a good mount.* In my defense, I think most people suck at mounting. As in "really suck"! Almost every video I can find and the few references to it in books make it a perpendicular motion across the horse's back.

A possible bad habit I'm trying: When I mount from the ground in the desert, Bandit sometimes finds a bit of weed or a few blades of something he wants to eat. Everything I can find says this is bad. After all, it means the reins are fully extended. If he takes off running while I mount, I'll have no rein control.

OTOH: If he feels good enough to drop his head and eat, he isn't in the mood to bolt. And if my mounting is primarily forward, and he starts running on a loose rein, I can either return to the ground (probably stumbling) or continue straight ahead on to his back. Once I'm riding, I can gather the reins and be more directive. If needed.

He seems to think getting a nibble while I mount is OK. It relaxes him as I mount. And I think I can handle the consequences if something does go wrong. But I need to think about it because darn near every book or article says I'm wrong. Although I'm used to that.


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## Knave

Once I think a horse is broke enough to not pull his head around as I get on, I really don’t mind if there is grass there and they eat. I know a lot of people to dislike that, and I understand their view and agree that it is bad manners. I just really don’t care myself. 

If I didn’t think I could stop the horse well enough in a spook I probably wouldn’t with that horse. If I figure I can get them stopped I don’t mind. Of course I also know I can get the rest of the way on when a horse is running.

Do you want to hear a funny story? I was kind of a wild child. I could be called feral when people were not around to see, and a people pleaser when they were. Then I had zero fear of anything except getting caught. I got caught in several bad circumstances, but some I did manage to get away with.

My friend and I were riding up a mountain where we had killed a couple rattle snakes. When we came to the next one I told her I was going to catch it. She said I was crazy, but after a bit of messing around I finally caught this snake. The horse I was riding was Runt, and she was as wild as I was.

When I went to step into the saddle holding this snake it rattled a bit, and she said I could find another ride, but she wasn’t quite stupid enough to allow me onto her back holding that snake. So, she ran out from under me, and I quickly decided rather than lose my hold on the snake I would not get the rest of the way on.

So, in the ruckus I did let a bit of slack into my hand, and I look down to see this snake reaching around to bite my wrist. I threw it, so I wouldn’t get bitten, but I didn’t check for my aim, and I accidentally threw it quite at my friend. She jumped out of the way, and began scolding me all while laughing at my craziness.

I killed the poor snake then. If I could go back I would have just let him go, as we had both had quite the day, but I drug him home because for whatever reason I believed he proved the story. I wasn’t doubted in any case, because everyone knew I was wild as the mare, but I only managed to get into quite a bit of trouble for all my work. Lol


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## bsms

You couldn't pay me to try to pick up a rattlesnake. They can move FAST! With Bandit, I think it comes down to him becoming such a solid citizen. It is hard to imagine what could cause him, in 1 second, to go from "safe enough to graze" to "must run madly". And in fact, I've never known him to run "madly". Move quickly? yes. Madly? Nope. And it only takes a second to swing a leg over. Then I'm in "ride" mode. He's just a very sane horse.


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## knightrider

Now that I am up in age, if the horse really wants to graze while I'm mounting, I sometimes let them. Sometimes I feel like I shouldn't so I don't. When nobody's looking and it's just me and my horse, and I've had them such a long time, and we understand one another so well, oh, heck, why not?


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## SueC

When we've been riding across the neighbour's paddocks, both last night and before the quagmire gave us a couple of weeks off riding, Sunsmart has been most interested in the neighbour's clover variety. It was coming up as little lush islands in the short turf, and between us we were almost riding musical chairs, without the getting off bit. :rofl: Made it into a game. Let him munch, and when his mouth was definitely full (although he always tells me that's not really full yet, but with a bit if he stuffs in more it just ends up falling out), ask him to move on, while aiming him at another island of clover some way in the distance. Then cue with dropped reins that he could eat again. I think this is his favourite game. I'm doing a lot of forest riding at the moment because if we spend most of our time on the paddocks at the moment, it would be slow going or a disappointed horse! 

@Knave, that's such a crazy thing you did, but you know it. :rofl: I think I mentioned before that I picked up a bull ant as a kid - these things are over an inch long and bite and sting notoriously - it's like deciding to pet a hornet. And funnily, it was all fine, the ant was just walking on my hand - normally they bite straight away - until I panicked, and tried to fling it off me, and then it went for me! :rofl: Also, we had to kill a few tiger snakes in my childhood, when they get territorial and hang around your house - and there was this really big one I really wanted to BBQ, but my mother wouldn't let me. We occasionally have to kill tiger snakes at our place too, same reason - but haven't had one big enough to be worth BBQing yet. When I do, would you like to come by for a meal? ;-)

Anyone here tried snake - or anything really exotic? I've tried camel, but it just tasted like beef really. And we eat kangaroo, but in Australia that's not exotic unless you live in a city and/or are a vegan.


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## Knave

I would come and try it @SueC! When I was very young I remember my uncle killed a bunch of rattlers to cook. I was so excited ease dropping on the conversations about it. The time came and went, and he cooked the snakes and I remember my father talking about trying it. I was so disappointed that I didn’t get the chance! I was pretty sure in my little girl head that I was going to be invited to try it of course. Lol. I do not remember if they said they liked it or not.


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## SueC

Imagine being left out of something like that! :shock:

I figure if the snake is big enough, I can just do rounds like tuna. Filleting, I don't know. I once filleted Trumpeters - small skinny fish with lots of spiny dorsal fins - and though they tasted great in a smoky fish chowder, it took hours and I decided I didn't want to do that again. I imagine it would be similar with snakes...


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## bsms

Got an update on Lilly. I don't mention her a lot. We sold her in 2010 because she & Trooper hated each other and I didn't have room to separate them. I voted to sell Trooper but I lost and we sold Lilly. 

Turns out the lady we sold her to sold her to another woman. The farrier knows Lilly and says she now lives on a few acres with one other horse. The woman who bought her doesn't ride, but she grooms the horses twice a day and like to go out and hang out with them. He said Lilly's "job" now is to be an affectionate, sociable horse - and she does it extremely well. She get chiro visits, vet visits, feet done every 6 weeks and lots of companionship. No riding. Doesn't think there is any health issue there, just has an owner who doesn't like riding. Nothing wrong at all with someone who just likes being with horses!

Not a bad life for a horse who was a very sweet, cheerful, patient & polite Arabian mare:


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## gottatrot

Good to hear the update on Lilly! Sounds like a nice life. Horses really don't care if they are ridden or not. I know Amore enjoys being retired a lot more than she ever liked working.


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## bsms

Got a ride in yesterday. We had 4 days of rain last week. We have a straight sided pail out in the yard. After the rain ended, I measured over 5" in the bucket. But my wife then pointed out she EMPTIED the bucket after the first two days, so 5 inches was what we got during the last two days - when the rain was less! So maybe 10 inches, or more, in 4 days. In a place that gets 20 inches a year. It was the most rain I've ever seen around here.

My youngest is home on leave for a few days and we went for a ride. I was hoping to show off how calm Bandit is, but Bandit was tense. Everything had changed. The ruts in the dirt road had filled in, but others grew elsewhere. A few trees that had been clinging to the sides of the wash were no longer clinging, but lying in the wash. SCARY! In one place, the main wash (6-8 feet wide) is now blocked off and a new section (previously no more than 12 inches wide) is now the main wash. SCARY!

So Bandit was on pins and needles, looking for the monster who had changed everything so dramatically. Trooper? He acted as if nothing had changed. That doesn't mean Trooper is better trained or that he "trusts" my "confident" daughter. I honestly think Trooper just doesn't notice much, while Bandit - like Mia before him - memorizes every tree and rock, and then worries about why THAT tree has been struck down by Zeus.

At one point, the wash was down to about 2 feet wide and Bandit just could NOT go past a tree. The bank was impassible on the left so we turned right and scrambled up some rocks. Bandit stumbled when a rock gave way beneath him but caught himself. We passed the scary tree on the tree's other side - which apparently wasn't scary - and then slid into the wash. Bandit didn't like sliding into the wash while Trooper acted as if he had done it hundreds of times before. Which he may have done during his sheep herding days. I have no idea why going around the tree on the right was OK and going around on the level wash to the left was unbearable. Maybe the narrowness of the wash made it too constricting to Bandit. Or maybe the effort of getting out of the wash kept him too busy to worry about the tree.

Horses. Beats me.

So my daughter had a fun ride and laughed at how hard Bandit & I were working. But as she pointed out, Bandit never actually quit. No matter how tense he got, he still listened. She thinks that is all a horse like Bandit can give. Trooper is different just because he IS different. She said in 10+ years of riding Trooper, she could count the number of times he was genuinely worried on the fingers of one hand and have fingers left over. While if she kept track for Bandit yesterday, she'd have run out of fingers and toes.

On @egrogan's journal, she mentioned having a couple of tough rides. Part of me wishes I had an unflappable horse. Part of me is thrilled he is NOT unflappable. The Horse Who Thinks. Always. Even when I wish he'd stop thinking. Except I don't. Not really. And yet...

Horses.


----------



## bsms

For something very different:

"The work is cast from a beeswax model hand-carved by Leonardo himself, circa 1508 according to Dr. Carlo Pedretti. Author of over sixty books on the life and work of Leonardo and the Armand Hammer Chair of Leonardo Studies at UCLA, Dr. Pedretti authenticated the statuette in 1985 and documented it in Leonardo Da Vinci In The Collection Of Her Majesty The Queen At Windsor Castle - Volume II - Horses And Other Animals, a three-volume tome prepared with art historian Sir Kenneth Clarke, and published in 1987. He believed Horse and Rider was a model for what was to have been a monumental statue of Leonardo's patron, the French Governor of Milan.

Over the centuries, Leonardo's beeswax model had suffered damage--including the loss of the rider's hands and the left foreleg of the horse. Recognizing the fragile nature of the figure, a mold was created to preserve its integrity, and a single bronze was cast directly from the mold--ensuring Leonardo's Horse and Rider would be memorialized in perpetuity. Most recently, Horse and Rider was exhibited at the Leonardo da Vinci exhibition at the Palazzo delle Stelline in Milan, Italy." 



















https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/horse-and-rider-leonardo-da-vinci-1452-1519-2634749AE1​





It is going up for auction, minimum bid $11 million. The saddle fascinates me. But when my horse behaves like that, I doubt I look so serene...:redface:


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## SueC

It's a nice statue but I'm not sure I have the cash lying around to bid on it. :rofl:

The saddle is interesting indeed. It would allow you to transport your chihuahua or pet rabbit under the pommel. 
@bsms, a while ago you posted a clip of jetcam of someone flying over scenery in, was it England? I can't find it, do you remember where it is?


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## bsms

No, @SueC, I don't. I really regret losing all my pictures of flying low-level in F-111s in England to some mover who decided HE wanted them more than me...:evil:


----------



## bsms

From Littauer's "The Development of Modern Riding". I enjoyed the book but I suspect many would find it offensive. It needn't be, though, if one understands his goal was helping new riders ride.


> It must be quite obvious from what I have said that I personally admire an inconspicuous control of the horse; however, because it is undramatic, it leaves many people cold. And there is another factor: while many people today like to ride on the basis of a partnership with the horse, just as many love to dominate the animal and to feel that he is merely an animated instrument in their hands. This category of rider will always prefer a method based on pushing and pulling, which gives the sensation of dominion. When talented riders take this road the results may not be too bad, but when every Tom, **** and Harry attempts it, the level of average riding goes downhill, and upset and unhappy horses become a common sight....
> 
> In comparison with the French books the German texts are often quite naive in their earnestness and are pretentiously ponderous. Since they attempt to be pedantically exhaustive, they are apt to be overcrowded with details. Many of the latter, even of the simplest kind, are often described in a complicated scholastic manner which should be reserved only for those instances when there is no other way of presenting some abstruse point. Because of this the average reader soon ceases to see the woods for the trees. These turbid tomes illustrate the saying of Ruskin which Piero Santini so aptly quoted at the beginning of his own refreshingly lucid book, "*It is far more difficult to be simple than to be complicated.*"...
> 
> Seunig also fails to recognize the fact that the Forward Seat and the Dressage Seat (he calls the latter the Normal Seat) have little in common, because the balance of the first is primarily based in the stirrups and that of the latter in the saddle. Obviously not realizing this, he believes that the "forward seat is developed organically from the normal seat." *He also believes that it is impossible to maintain the Forward Seat "by balance alone" which is precisely what beginners learning the Forward Seat are required to do by many American riding teachers. The Germans, who have apparently never discovered how easy this is when properly taught, make a strong point of the fixed knee, and teach that the rider should raise himself above the saddle not from the stirrups but "from the knees."*
> 
> Although I know a few excellent riders who ride with pinched knees, such a seat used by the majority would be quite disastrous, both from the point of view of security and that of softness.
> 
> One error leads to another, and Seunig wrongly claims that the fixed knees become "a shock absorber."...
> 
> ...sitting in a chair in an angular position without his feet touching the ground, a man has no springs in his body. *In order to obtain springiness he must stand on his feet, raising himself slightly above the chair, body inclined forward in balance on his feet. It is a law of nature that we can deliver a spring only from our feet.*
> 
> When in the saddle the stirrups are the substitute for the ground; the impetus can come only from them. Pinching with the knees disconnects the torso from the feet and thus removes an essential element of the spring system. True enough, one can post at a trot without stirrups, from gripping knees, but this opening and closing of the angles of the knees should not be confused with spring.
> 
> This is not a book on the techniques of riding, so I shall not go into a discussion of how a strong grip with the lower thighs, knees, and the upper calves may interfere with springiness, or when one is preferable to the other, and how and when compromises should be made. Here I merely wish to point out one of the numerous instances of error common to even the best German books. I have chosen the seat simply because it is the easiest to illustrate...
> 
> ...Museler, who recommends a dressage seat for moderate gaits, evidently even across country, and switching to a forward position only to catch up with the horse at a fast gallop or on the jump, describes a version of the latter based on shortened stirrups and pinched knees. This type of forward position almost inevitably throws the rider out of balance too far forward a defect that is tacitly admitted by Museler's stipulating that the rider at the same time rest his hands on the horse's neck. This, while perhaps necessary under certain circumstances, should not and need not be a part of the ideal finished position...
> 
> For centuries the Engish wisely refused to use Dressage methods to school their cross-country horses. Now, ironically, that the Italians have provided the world with an ideal system for schooling hunters, the English have taken up a method which they previously firmly resisted.
> 
> It was the British post-war occupation of Germany which probably inspired this remarkable about-face, by bringing many young Englishmen into personal contact with continental riding. Although I have just belittled German theories in comparison with French, Italian and some American, German riding is undoubtedly more educated than English, and has a much longer history of scholastic equestrian thinking.
> 
> A thorough, serious, and analytical approach to the techniques of riding and schooling was a new experience for the English, and they were obviously duly impressed and intrigued. German victories in all three Olympic Games tests, as well as in international competitions in general, have appeared to substantiate the superiority of the German system.
> 
> *Inexperienced thinking on the subject came to the simple conclusion that what is good for an international horse and rider should be good for every other horse and rider.* The same logic would indicate that the difference between the schooling of a great jumper and of an ordinary hunter is merely a matter of degree. And so elementary dressage became the by-word.


BTW - I have "Riding Logic". I've read it. I don't find it helpful because I find it based on a bad understanding of a Forward System of riding. Notice also that Littauer admits *a very good rider may prosper doing things a lesser rider should not attempt*.


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## bsms

I won't post this on a helmet thread because it would get me in trouble.

5 days ago, jogging on my own two feet, I was on the trail Bandit & I do most of our cantering. It was near the end of my run, I was feeling good, everything was happy - and my toe caught a small rock sticking about an inch out of the dirt. Around here, dirt is closely related to concrete, so the rock didn't move. I went from happy to heading into the ground. My shoulder took the worst of the impact, some with my hands and a bit on the side of my head.

As I got back up, I noticed a pointed rock about a foot from where my head hit. I hit temple first with my noggin, so it would have been very ugly if I had hit the pointed rock.

I'm not going to start wearing a helmet while jogging. It does highlight a concern when riding - because Bandit could clip a toe against a rock just as I did. I wear bifocals which blur the ground close to my feet. So I do what horses have to do, and run based on what I see ahead and my mind needs to subconsciously remember and adjust. But I'm no more perfect at it than a horse is.

Still, I think I will primarily go helmetless with Bandit. Helmet for the other horses since I almost never ride them. It is a risk with him just as it is a risk with me jogging, but I'd rather take the risks than jog on a track. Helmetless feels right with Bandit.


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## bsms

Tried dropping my stirrups a hole at the end of my last ride. Did it after trying to ride no stirrups the way @gottatrot showed in one of her videos. Note: No stirrups, even if I tried to keep my feet deep into the non-existing stirrups, felt jarring on his back. Peak impacts were way higher. Very short, but jarring compared to using stirrups. Maybe I'm doing 'no stirrups' wrong.

But I kind of liked the longer stirrup setting so I tried it again today. Dropped it to this. If I had previously used the Baby Bear, Momma Bear and Poppa Bear lengths, what would this be? The "Grandpa Bear" length?








Works well at a trot. Seems to fix my "lean too far forward" problem. At a canter, my heels cannot stay down at this setting, but it feels comfortable, secure and Bandit seems happier:





















































I plan to keep it here for a while because it DID seem more comfortable to both me and Bandit. If I "stand in the stirrups", my jeans stay in contact with the saddle but my butt cheeks get out. It felt very stable to me and Bandit seems to value "stable" highly. He transitioned into a canter easier IMHO and had no problem turning a tight circle at either a trot or canter. Yes, we were both leaning into the circle at times, which is what we prefer.

He shifted into a brief gallop a couple of times and those felt secure and easy. Trotting felt good - stable, secure but not hitting his back. Maybe Grandpa needs the Grandpa Bear length? I was really happy with how Bandit felt. We did do one counter-canter...yeah, it felt pretty bumpy. But Bandit didn't seem to mind.


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## bsms

PS: I've debated selling Bandit since he is much younger than the other two. But my wife volunteered to go feed the horses tonight. When she got back, the only horse she talked about was Bandit. She had to get him to move his rump so she could open the gate. When she finished and tried to use the gate to leave, his butt was back in the way. 

She told him to move it, and she said he turned and looked at her as if to say, "_Hey girl! Can't you see I'm EATING?_" She found his expression so comical that she started laughing, but then insisted he move his rump over. And he did, looking reproachfully at her while moving.

I've noticed most of her comments about horses have become about Bandit and his expressions and, dare I say, sense of humor? I'm told horses don't laugh. That they can't understand "funny", but my wife is convinced Bandit plays jokes and laughs inside. I won't try to argue otherwise. Happy wife, happy life. 

PSS: This is a "Booma Rein Keeper". It is elastic and lets me drop the reins and still have them close enough to get them back easily. It would also prevent dropped reins from getting under Bandit's foot. I like it. $23 at Amazon:








I don't notice it when riding:


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## Knave

I think some horses have a great sense of humor! Bones is seriously funny, and Zeus also thinks he’s funny. He is, but I think Bones is funnier than him.

You look very fit right now.


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## SueC

This is something you posted two weeks ago on another journal and I've just caught up on it:



bsms said:


> *From a teaching perspective, I think MOST new riders would benefit from an approach emphasizing trusting the horse and getting out of the horse's way. If the rider then wanted to become a truly good rider, then their approach would still be colored by thinking of the horse as someone to work with rather than someone to impose their will upon*. I've seen dressage videos where the rider rode with understanding and some where the rider seemed like a domineering jerk. And I've seen both in trail riders, too!


Hear, hear! :clap: Also the thoughts in the rest of the post. I find it interesting to keep reading the excerpts on riding theory from all sorts of times and places you produce on a regular basis, and the commentary on them - now I don't have to read that historical stuff!  The distinction made between the types of riders taught was also something that made me think - the people who had to ride as opposed to wanted to, necessarily. The person who rides once a week versus the person who's going to really go to town on it, etc.

About the knee and European riding, I must have missed that, thankfully. We did have an exercise where playing cards were inserted between knees and saddle and you did your lesson and tried not to lose your playing card. I do agree this could get people to grip, which is bad... but the aim of that one was to stop people flopping all over the place and making gaps between horse and leg, rather than the knee per se. I thought of what I was trying to achieve as the whole inner leg top to bottom being very sticky and adhering to the horse with friction, rather than muscular effort - to have the legs wrapped close, but relaxed too, if that makes any sense. Bareback, it's the only way I can do it without falling off when trotting, and I was doing bareback pretty often as a kid, and that transferred back to how I rode in a saddle. :falloff:

I was riding last night and thinking that the weight in the stirrups for me walking along was really just the weight of my feet and some of my legs, that I didn't have to hold up myself with stirrups. There's a little bit more at the posting trot, but not at the sitting or the canter. This was just by feel, not by Newton meter or anything. ;-) I wonder how leg length affects stirrup use - whether really short-legged people use them more. There's a study! :rofl:

I think there are probably a number of ways to ride sympathetically with a horse, and there have to be, since each horse and rider are different with their construction, quirks etc. I think it's best for each person to find out what that looks like for them, rather than go by a book - the end result will be lightness and a happy horse and rider.

:cowboy:

But yeah, often this stuff is taught as dogma, and really shouldn't be. It's good to have basic guidelines, but also to have an empirical approach to your riding - to experiment with different things until you find your comfortable range that works for you and your horse...


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## bsms

My youngest learning a canter with her horse:

















That would drive me NUTS! I'd hate to canter that way. Bandit & I:








Trooper and my daughter enjoy each other. Bandit and I enjoy each other. I watched an interesting video on hiking 800 miles thru southern Utah and northern Arizona (streaming free on Amazon right now):











One thing I liked was when his hiking companion decided to quit early on. No blame. No name calling. No insults or demeaning. "*Each person has to hike their own hike.*" I love that! We need to ride our own ride on the horse we are on that day. Once one accepts that, then experimenting and trying new things and asking your HORSE about it makes perfect sense. And if it isn't clicking with a different horse, you are free to try a different approach. "*Each team need to ride their own ride.*"

PS: I like the title too: "*Figure it out*..." Near the end of the film he made three attempts to climb out of a canyon. The first two failed. But a solo hike where no one knows where you are? Figure it out. It is the ONLY option. Figure It Out on Your Horse.


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## egrogan

That’s one thing that drew me to endurance-the mottos you’ll hear most people repeat are “to finish is to win” and “ride your own ride.” It’s all about tackling something tough as a team with your horse.


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## tinyliny

I'm really glad that very few people walk that 'trail'. The desert landscape cannot tolerate that much foot traffic without becoming severely damaged. That's why they are sticklers about having people stay on the paths at the Nat. Parks there.


But, . . . that's off topic. Sorry.


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## phantomhorse13

bsms said:


> No stirrups, even if I tried to keep my feet deep into the non-existing stirrups, felt jarring on his back. Peak impacts were way higher. Very short, but jarring compared to using stirrups. Maybe I'm doing 'no stirrups' wrong.


If you have a very tight back, then you are probably always going to have issues doing no stirrups "right." Being able to sit the trot involves being able to absorb the shock with your pelvis and back, which may not be easy or even possible for you with your back injury if the muscles are always tight.

If you choose to try it again, I found it helps me to think not so much about sitting down/still as much as relaxing and finding the subtle hip rotation that matches the way the horse is moving.

Another no stirrups option would be to two-point instead of sit, as that will keep your seat clear of Bandit's back altogether.


I agree with your wife that horses have a sense of humor, though some are less expressive than others. I think she was reading Bandit's intent very clearly!

Every time you speak of selling him, I wish as I was closer.. but @gottatrot is.


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## bsms

I've no desire to discuss politics, but this isn't actually political. Comes from National Review but it is about culture and homogenized thought. NOT politics.


> "_“Dark horses,” alternatively, achieve success off that jam-packed ladder, often by focusing on their individual talents and motives — as well as by seeing opportunities that lie in front of them, not some rigid, pre-planned goal set 15 years down the road. Lest you be suspicious, being a “dark horse” doesn’t mean bailing on society and making handicrafts in a yurt. It doesn’t even necessarily mean bailing on college, and it almost always involves dedication and hard work. “There’s no autopilot version of this,” Rose explains — which is good, given that the autopilot version of the current standardized success map seems to be driving more than a few young people bananas._"
> 
> Roads Scholar
> 
> "In the Dark Horse Project at the Harvard Graduate School of Education, bestselling author and acclaimed thought leader Todd Rose and neuroscientist Ogi Ogas studied women and men who achieved impressive success even though nobody saw them coming. Dark horses blaze their own trail to a life of happiness and prosperity....The secret is a mindset that can be expressed in plain English: Harness your individuality in the pursuit of fulfillment to achieve excellence." - From the Amazon review of the book the article discusses: Dark Horse: Achieving Success Through the Pursuit of Fulfillment. I've ordered a copy even if I'm already an eccentric old man...


It doesn't matter if it involves diet, health, politics, global warming, religion, trimming hooves or riding style. We seem to live in a "One Size Fits All" world where thinking about what you observe and asking questions is met with "Experts say..." Of course, experts are often experts for a reason. But anything ought to be open to outside thinking, and disputes resolved by trial, error & success.

I took some classes at the local community college in 2012 and enjoyed them. I've done it again in Fall 2019 and hate my classes. The instructors mean well, but EVERYTHING is controlled by McGraw-Hill. Every text reading, every homework assignment, every quiz, every test - it is 100% McGraw-Hill online. There are lectures, but instructors all have the same ppt slides, same assigned learning objectives, same format - and every point in every class is earned by parroting McGraw-Hill's opinion. 

One instructor has actually spent class time explaining why the book & quiz are wrong in some areas. The others are simply mouthpieces for McGraw-Hill. The 18-20 year old students don't notice it. They are used to the same thing in high school. The handful in their 30s/40s notice. The instructors are obviously frustrated. 

I find it appalling. College ought to be about exploring and conflicting ideas and being challenged intellectually. The younger students are being indoctrinated instead of educated. Yes, even business, accounting and taxes should involve individual thought. 

I obviously like and respect VS Littauer's approach to riding. But imagine a world where EVERY rider HAD to ride precisely according to his book. There would be a lot of frustrated riders and Littauer - who believed in experimenting - would probably rise out of his grave to protest. But that is the community college world here. I'd as soon be emasculated as return in the spring. Heck, that is what the college is doing, figuratively speaking - emasculating the minds of the students. That isn't meant in a sexist way. It applies to the women too. They are gelding the students' minds!

Part of me is glad I'm 61. But darn it! In 2012 we had some fun classes with heated discussions and instructors LOVING it! Has it only been 7 years?


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## whisperbaby22

What appalls me is the weird obsession with the internet. Because it is a information "hiway" you would think most people understood that you have to use discrimination in determining if something is truthful, or real - not blindly accepting everything on it. I see people who just do not think for themselves any more.


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## Knave

I like the idea of experimentation. People tend to get stuck into a “this is right, this is wrong” mentality. My littlest girl is the epitome of experimentation with her scientific mind. She is twelve steps ahead doing her own thing and I am a mile behind her trying to back her up so that I can instruct. I teased her the other day, “What do your teachers think of this?!” 

She also won student of the month, so I know good and well what most of her teachers think of it. They are all mostly good educators at her school. Any good teacher must love a student with a mind! I reminded myself that day that there are a lot of ways of accomplishing the exact same goal, and I sat back and watched her instead. Don’t we all kind of wish for the same thing? A freedom to try our own ideas and then a helpful backup to stand behind us when we inevitability hit a wall at times...

A lot of people tend to forget that. Obviously myself included at times.


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## SueC

Yeah, @Knave and @bsms, that's learning how to learn, and learning to use first principles, trial and error, test your ideas, gather evidence for and against etc. As opposed to being spoonfed dogma. Last time I taught Science, there was a nice emphasis in the Australian curriculum on looking at how people had arrived at the conclusions for various well-regarded theories, and also looking at how Wegener was lampooned for his idea of continental drift when he first proposed it (but we know now he was correct and his contemporary established science was wrong, because we've measured and observed the actual process). That's an example of why it is important to not take science as dogma, but as a process which usually eventually comes up with very good, and often accurate, explanations for natural phenomena. The process is mostly hampered by people rather than the process, and scientists are people...

I've been farming and freelance writing since 2012, so who knows what they've done to the Australian curriculum meanwhile. However, one thing I did notice in the 15 years or so I taught high school is that there was an increasing substitution of technology for the sake of it, for more useful learning activities - e.g. the science experiment / laboratory budget kept being cut back as the IT budget blew out of control. That made me angry - in the 90s, two out of the four sessions you had with science students were doing practicals and experiments - by the time I left, students were lucky to have one proper practical a week, and instead spent their time in computer laboratories doing glorified reading / time wasting (but not in my classes if I could avoid it - although there was less and less equipment and support for hands-on science - we were Top 5 in the world in science education in the late 1990s, and aren't even Top 20 anymore). I just read an article that studies are now linking the drop in literacy and numeracy over the last 15 years in Australian schoolchildren in part with overuse of computers in the classroom - it's gotten to the point kids don't even handwrite much anymore, but have iPads in the classrooms even in elementary schools (I'm sure Apple Inc love it). I've always thought computers belong in computer labs, not in the classroom - we shouldn't be so dependent on glitzy technology, but develop our own brains, sensorimotor skills, group and social interaction / cooperation skills, have vivid debates, learn to think critically and independently, have practical skills in researching hands-on instead of "virtually" etc etc - and even do vocabulary lists and so forth. Old-fashioned, I know... but worked a lot better, and the woeful results of recent experimentation in education show it...


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> ...The 18-20 year old students don't notice it. They are used to the same thing in high school. The handful in their 30s/40s notice...


This is something I was discussing with my DH the other day. There seems to be an emphasis on following the rules or a structure rather than being creative or thinking outside the box, which I notice in most of my younger co-workers, especially below 30. DH thought part of it might have to do with being on computers and gaming a lot, since those do have rules that you need to know and follow, and nothing can really be done outside the rules. Some of it must have to do with the educational system too.

It's a bit frustrating in a job where yes, there are many rules, but in the interests of good patient outcomes we have to be able to bend the rules some at times. The younger staff seem to have such difficulty with this concept. An example would be that a patient has a certain medication ordered that can be given as needed. But the "as needed" specifies a certain condition. So even though the nurse knows the medication will help with the current problem (say it is ordered for nausea, but the patient is severely agitated and punching the side of the bed), the nurse won't give it until after contacting the doctor and waiting until a new order is entered into the computer system. Meanwhile, the little old man is bloodying his fists on the bed. Any older nurse would say "it's on the chart," and the medicine would be given before you could blink. The patient would be saved from harming himself, and she would straighten it all out with the doctor afterward. 

This example might sound a bit trivial, but this in the box thinking also affects life or death situations. The problem is that people's bodies don't always follow a straightforward, predictable and linear progression from illness to death, and so our thinking cannot be that way either. We have to be open to a multitude of possibilities. You might normally give the medications like 1-2-3-4-5, but with this person you might have to jump to 5 and then go back to 2 before you can go with 1.


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## bsms

"_Stay one the sidewalks. Stay on the trails. Success comes from following the rules._"

If I was paranoid, I'd think society WANTS people to believe that. I'm not paranoid - except for those who are out to get me :dance-smiley05: - but I do think computer games and computer education drill people in following the rules. And most rules have a reason. In Yosemite, you stay on the trails because there are a bajillion visitors a year and leaving the trail would destroy the park. In the desert or woods, you stay on the trail because leaving it may be impossible. Lots of rules are genuinely for our good. The 60s, with its emphasis on throwing the rules away, went to the opposite extreme.

But looking around you is also good. Leaving the trail can be very fulfilling. Knowing how - and when! - to set the rules aside is also good. It is like I was told by a visiting British officer when in Officer Training School 35 years ago: 
*
"Regulations are made for the guidance of the wise and the strict adherence of fools."*​
What disturbs me, @gottatrot, is how our current education seems to teach people to ignore "the little old man bloodying his fists". In the military, we used to talk bitterly about senior officers who believed PowerPoint was reality. A lot of big mistakes were made in Iraq and Afghanistan by people who didn't get out from behind their desks and see the world.

When I was in Afghanistan, I'd take off my long-sleeve shirt (with the rank on it) and work with young enlisted repairing stuff. Before long, they'd forget my rank and "we" would be working together. That is when they would start talking about what they saw all the time off the FOB, in places where officers didn't go except for tours. The picture they painted was VERY different from what officers would discuss during PowerPoint briefings in the office. And the young enlisted KNEW it! They were bitter that strategy, rules of engagement, and the official view on "our progress" was made by people who never saw what they saw.

At OTS long ago, I was told any good officer got out from behind the desk. He spent time in the back shops at midnight. He didn't take reports at face value. I still believe it. I'm told that is near heresy in the modern military. As it is in corporate America. It bothers me that college seems to encourage rules over thought now. Or maybe it is just this one particular community college. :frown_color:


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## knightrider

> "Experts say..." Of course, experts are often experts for a reason. But anything ought to be open to outside thinking, and disputes resolved by trial, error & success.


 @SueC had such a good quote about that a few weeks ago. I've not stopped thinking about it.



> I find it appalling. College ought to be about exploring and conflicting ideas and being challenged intellectually. The younger students are being indoctrinated instead of educated. Yes, even business, accounting and taxes should involve individual thought.


My daughter is taking some college courses although she is still a senior in high school. I have been so disappointed in the lack of "exploring and excitement" that have gone on in her classes. She hates it and my heart aches for her. College was so thrilling for me back in the 60's.



> It bothers me that college seems to encourage rules over thought now. Or maybe it is just this one particular community college.


We've tried two different colleges, and found it to be true in both places. I couldn't wait to go to college. She is dreading it.


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## whisperbaby22

SueC, we have the same problem with declining school tests here in California. Not to long ago our schools were ranked high, now they are near the bottom. Excuses are many, but the only "fix" seems to be higher taxes. California state taxes are very high. But elected officials want more. I don't want to get political, but here in CA we are spending billions on a high speed rail system in the big valley. It will not prove to be to useful, and that money would be better spent in the schools.


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## bsms

I can't actually "like" your experience, @knightrider. It is sad. College ought to be exciting. It ought to be exploring, not memorizing. I'm sorry to hear your daughter dreads it but I certainly now can understand her feeling. With two weeks to go, I dread my classes. I'd love to just quit and take the Fs but quitting isn't really part of my personality. But I have no motivation to do the work to get an A. No way I'm going back next spring!


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## SueC

Hello! :wave: Is the term over yet? Are you sufficiently educated for this year? ...I saw this current Darwin Award and thought it might be of interest to you; of course, you may already know about the case:

https://darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin2019-04.html


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## bsms

I submitted two assignments over the weekend so the semester is very close to finished @SueC. I have an in-class assignment for one that will take up my Monday night for the next two nights. Gotta be present to do the assignment. Another class has all the assignments submitted and I have NO intention of attending the remaining class. It was like walking out of a bad movie and wishing one could have those hours back! A third has a test on Wednesday, but anything over 15% will give me an A. And the fourth? 350 points out of 1000 is the comprehensive, in class final. I've got 600 points, but honestly? It is a business ethics class whose text was written by people who have obviously never held a real job - ie, one outside of college. I'll take the test by asking myself, with each question:

*"What would Bernie Sanders say?"*








The text lists one of the primary duties of an employer as "make employees happy". I can't make ANYONE happy. I can give them an opportunity, but I can't make them happy. I pointed out I had once collected sheep pee for a biochemical company, and NO ONE could make putting a funnel on a ram's **** fun! At least, not without hiring some really strange people!

mg:​
I've also cleaned toilets for cash. Pretty tough to make that job "fulfilling"!

Even assuming I could "make people happy", the people who invest in a business might have done so hoping for a profit, which the text treats as a dirty word. It also argues people who might in some way be affected by the business ought to have equal say in how the business is run, which would surprise a lot of folks who actually BOUGHT into the business!

I told them is was like someone living back east, who had never touched a horse, believing they should have equal say in managing mustangs with those in Nevada who live with them, see them all the time and have to deal with the problems mustangs can cause. The instructor and students agreed, actually, but the test is written by the textbook publisher, graded by them and there is no deviation from what they insist.

So, for example @gottatrot, the correct answer is "_There is no justification for animal testing of new cancer drugs because computer modelling has eliminated the need._" I got that one wrong because I was certain even Bernie Sanders would say that was stupid! I wonder if the authors would take a new drug knowing it had only been tested by a computer...:evil:

My apologies to any Bernie Sanders fans. Vote and support anyone you wish. But a business ethics class should present more than one side to every question. It probably ought to recognize that people can disagree without being unethical or evil. That last sentence is one I wish every talking head on American political TV had to memorize...regardless of political view!

Oh...and while I disagree with about 98% of what Bernie Sanders believes, I kind of like the guy. Unlike most politicians, he doesn't HIDE what he thinks. I respect that. Disagree with him but I like his honesty. 

Anyways, I've decided I won't go back to college ever again. I don't have enough years left to waste any being indoctrinated in group think. I grieve, though, for the young. College was vastly better when it was a place to EXPLORE thoughts instead of a mono-culture that allows no dissent.


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## SueC

It's a great thing one can press "like" on posts where one disagrees politically, because there is other common ground. ;-) May you endure the rest of the term and then have a good Christmas.


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## whisperbaby22

Some of this sounds like that new idea that corporations must make everybody happy, not just stockholders. As a stockholder, this idea can be sound, but idiots can take it to a unprofitable end. 

As for the "happy' word, it could mean being happy in the job. It depends on the context.


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> The text lists one of the primary duties of an employer as "make employees happy".


Ha ha ha, well, I'd be happy if they would just pay me to stay home and ride my horse!



bsms said:


> Even assuming I could "make people happy", the people who invest in a business might have done so hoping for a profit, which the text treats as a dirty word. It also argues people who might in some way be affected by the business ought to have equal say in how the business is run, which would surprise a lot of folks who actually BOUGHT into the business!


I've heard some of this philosophy, about how people would still go through all the schooling and take on the responsibility of difficult jobs even without making a profit. Or they should. So far the U.S. is still doing fine in most areas with reimbursing people for extremely stressful jobs like being a doctor or nurse. I've read about how some other countries are having to bring in foreign staff who will work for less pay, because they have subscribed to this theory. I personally would not do my job without being paid well. It is far too difficult and stressful. If I were paid the same working at a fast food restaurant, then I certainly would not do _this_ job "out of the goodness of my heart."



bsms said:


> So, for example @gottatrot, the correct answer is "_There is no justification for animal testing of new cancer drugs because computer modelling has eliminated the need._"


!!! I don't have any words...


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## bsms

Life in a fighter squadron had some big pluses. I was an Electronic Warfare Officer, not a pilot, but I have a lot of great memories. It also came with a ton of stress. It was dangerous in peacetime. I went to a number of funerals and personally saw several planes crash. The culture of a fighter squadron is very intense. Then there were the deployments. Over one ten year stretch I averaged almost 6 months/year away from home.

I didn't do it primarily for the money. But it wouldn't have taken much of a cut in pay before we - my family and I - would have reconsidered. OTOH, after a semester of accounting...I wouldn't want to be an accountant for twice the pay I made flying!

I object to the idea that workers are not paid enough. If you are not being paid enough, QUIT! If you agree to do X in exchange for Y, even if X is collecting sheep pee, then YOU have decided Y is acceptable pay for job X. The military was one of the few jobs where quitting might not be an option. IIRC I had a 6 or 7 year commitment after training. My daughter signed up for 6 years because her training as a linguist isn't open to anyone who enlists for less. But outside of the military, both employers AND employees make choices.

In the world I live in, you can be doing a great job and lose it tomorrow because of a merger. One trucking company in the news is filing for bankruptcy and the senior people are under investigation for cooking the books. The drivers may lose their jobs through absolutely NO fault of their own! That is life.








At the extremes, ethics ARE involved. I object to companies using near-slave labor in countries to save a few dollars on the price of sneakers. I pay more for my shoes because I want them made by willing workers. A lot of companies cut corners and rig the books. That is lying, cheating, fraud - evil! I believe ethical behavior isn't just good ethics, but good business. I'd rather not think about how the livestock that provides me with chicken and meat is treated. And I'll gladly pay more for meat that hasn't involved stuffing the animals in feedlots or the insane way chickens are treated - if I can find it. I believe an ethical businessman can find OPPORTUNITIES in ethics. 

Given a chance, some people will choose the cheapest chicken they can find. Others will pay if someone markets chicken where the chickens were not treated worse than dog poop. Unfortunately...that option isn't available locally. Which in turn means there is an unfulfilled market waiting for someone to make a profit by filling it.

But ethics work both ways. I didn't complain about my pay when I was cleaning toilets. I chose to accept the job for that pay. No one made me. It was for a few months, the hours fit my schedule and helped me as I learned skills that would help me get a better job. The employer didn't cheat me. I was paid the agreed pay promptly. We agreed to both the job and the pay before I did a minute of work. And I could quit at any time. Which I did when I was ready to move on.

Lots of jobs need to be done. Not all are fun. Bucking hay by hand sucked. Moving water pipes by hand REALLY sucked, IMHO! That is why I quit after 2 weeks! Heck, I stayed collecting sheep pee for 4 months, so I guess I liked it better than moving irrigation pipes all day.

A big part of what I object to in the class is associating a political belief with morality. The book wants everyone to be paid a "living wage" and supports a universal income. That is not "moral". It is not "immoral" either. I would argue the record low unemployment the USA has now is a valid approach to fulfilling human needs. Other countries may choose a universal basic income. Both approaches want good things. Which works best is a judgment call based on one's beliefs about economics and the balance between security and freedom.

I think an expanding economy is the best way to help the poor. Others disagree. It is a question about how to achieve a moral goal. The goal is ethical - helping others have a better life. HOW one gets to that goal is a political & economic choice about which decent folks can disagree. Honorably disagree. I disagree with Bernie Sanders. That doesn't make me evil. He disagrees with me. That doesn't make him evil. It seems a class in ethics ought to understand that...but our text only presents one side. Which I consider unethical.

Oh well. At least now I know I'd as soon be emasculated as be an accountant! I am soooooo not cut out for that job. Good thing others are....


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## SueC

@bsms, can you un-confuse me? Because you did actually fly planes at one point, but above you say you weren't a pilot?

I think it's interesting that I'm essentially a leftie, but occasionally talk in depth with a libertarian from the US, or someone from the US who's way more to the right than I am, and I do often find values and concerns in common. Maybe I'm an unusual leftie - I also have a strong work ethic, and don't believe people should be paid full pay for half-hearted efforts - we met a lot of slackers on our journey on the planet and it's offensive when they're paid the same as you. I mean, this isn't a huge proportion of people, but yeah. Or some of the sub-contractors we had here on the house build - the electricians were terribly unprofessional, just their whole attitude. Then they made a mistake - brought the wrong cable - and didn't realise this until they'd buried it in the ditch my husband and I had dug, from our solar power station in the shed to the house. So then they went back to town to get the right cable and wanted to put the extra time and mileage on our tab, and we said, "No way!" and stuck to the quoted amount.

It got worse - they then attempted to bury the right cable at less than a third of legal depth, because they'd filled in the ditch already on the wrong cable and were too lazy to dig it back out. When I objected, they told me it didn't need to be that deep, and I cited Australian Building Regulations at them chapter and verse (400mm minimum means exactly that; a lot of people try to BS you, and I was legally responsible for the build, as the registered owner builder), and they were still growling, and I said I'd report them, and not pay them, unless it went to the required depth. I couldn't believe I had to do that - where were their professional values? And it wasn't the only time this kind of thing happened, either. There's a "she'll-be-rightness" in Australian culture that, as an ex-European, and a person who tries to do the right thing, I'm just never going to be OK with.

On the other hand, the reason I'm a leftie is because I object to the way big business runs Australia and ordinary citizens are left out more and more. Our democracy is a joke - the commercial media run blatant lies to get their preferred parties in office. Australia's economy is based on digging up the ore as fast a possible and shipping it off overseas instead of actually manufacturing things from it; and shipping out wheat and other agricultural products as fast as we can rip them out of increasingly stressed farmland. We have a lot of problems with soil erosion, topsoil loss, species extinction, ecologically impoverished countrysides, monocultures that are pesticide-dependent and then this kills a lot of bees and other non-target insects etc. I worked in sustainable agriculture research / advice before I started teaching and things right now are far worse than when I was doing that job 25 years ago - instead of following the recommendations we made, government did the opposite - and corporations ended up buying up family farms that used to feed people, for growing woodchips on for making newsprint that's not worth the paper it is printed on, and has little value other than just that you can make a buck out of it.

Currently, the Australian government is regulating small business out of existence by the back door. They do it by heaping up increasing "requirements" on small people that they can't afford to do compared to big business - I wrote about that here when I was hopping mad: A Country For The Big Boys ? Sue Coulstock

But basically, things like you now can't sell a lot of farm produce without paying for expensive licenses (eggs, potatoes, dairy - all the small-trade on that is black market and illegal - normal people can't legally sell excess eggs from backyard chickens or potatoes from their garden without a license that makes it financially unviable), and some have been "health regulated" out of existence (while McDonalds makes people _legally_ unhealthy). The local dairy farm was nearly forced to build a disabled toilet block for employees they don't have because they're family-operated only, and they had to argue and argue with the bureaucrats who wanted to impose this white elephant on them. You break small people like that down, they sell up and the corporations buy the land... More examples (and more steam) in the link above.

And what this does is make it really hard for people to make small-scale livings off their own backs - they've even stopped grandmothers selling a bit of extra jam from their fruit trees by insisting they have to have a $20K+ commercial stainless steel kitchen to legally make jam, and that (new regulation) they're not allowed to recycle glass jars but have to buy new glassware to package. That's shut down that cottage industry, because you'd never make up for the financial losses incurred by those requirements. There's very little you can now legally do to make your own living, if you're small-scale - so lots of people have to do things illegally, on the black market, and hope noone dobs them in.

And yet when Bill (84-year-old friend) was a kid, people could make their own livings trading agricultural produce in small ways etc, because none of those regulations existed - the small farmer could make a living, without an off-farm job to pay the bills. It's now so bad the 300-cow dairy down the road doesn't support the family who run it anymore; one of them works off-farm to supplement their dairy income. (That's the place the bureaucrats tried to imposed a disabled toilet block on.)

Anyway, I'll stop ranting. The main things I object to is that the earth's resources are increasingly concentrated in the hands of fewer and fewer people (as well as being wasted to make crappy products that go in landfill tomorrow, just to make a buck for someone), and that those in power positions write themselves obscene paycheques - I don't see any logical reason why a backbench politician should automatically get twice the pay as an emergency department nurse (the pollies are _not_ more productive or hard-working than nurses, and they're not nearly as educated), or that CEOs should leech upon the rest of society because the rules allow them to do it, and that people in power write the rules to suit them, stuff like that.

I think the political system is fundamentally broken, and I think human beings are often far too irresponsible collectively to live in harmony with each other or the earth. And I don't have the answers, except I think positive change is more likely to come as a result of grass roots community action than the electoral process per se. I think the systems are really dysfunctional, and the best I can do is try to live my life as positively as possible under increasingly dire circumstances.

Anyone got any ideas? Thoughts? I'd be surprised if any of you, regardless of their politics, can't relate to a lot of what I'm saying here. I kind of think that in some way, in this group, and perhaps in many cases, our actual values are closer than what the people we each would vote for would seem to indicate - and I think in part it's because the quality of the people we can vote for has gotten so abysmal - even more than before...


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## SueC

bsms said:


> I didn't do it primarily for the money. But it wouldn't have taken much of a cut in pay before we - my family and I - would have reconsidered. OTOH, after a semester of accounting...I wouldn't want to be an accountant for twice the pay I made flying!


:rofl: :cheers:

Yes, I totally relate. The very worst part of running our small farm as a business is the accounting and paperwork. Thank goodness for good music, but it is so hard to see anything productive in that work. It's very much like being made to write lines, or being made to dig a hole and fill it back in!




> One trucking company in the news is filing for bankruptcy and the senior people are under investigation for cooking the books. The drivers may lose their jobs through absolutely NO fault of their own! That is life.


Yep, but I think the law should be getting after the book-cookers, and really making an example of them. They shouldn't be allowed to profit from their conduct... there's so many loopholes by which people can legally treat others like dirt. Example, a company makes another company, shoves its profits into there, declares bankruptcy on the original company, uses that as an excuse not to pay wages owed to workers. Happens in Australia all the time, and this should not be allowed.





> At the extremes, ethics ARE involved. I object to companies using near-slave labor in countries to save a few dollars on the price of sneakers. I pay more for my shoes because I want them made by willing workers. A lot of companies cut corners and rig the books. That is lying, cheating, fraud - evil! I believe ethical behavior isn't just good ethics, but good business. I'd rather not think about how the livestock that provides me with chicken and meat is treated. And I'll gladly pay more for meat that hasn't involved stuffing the animals in feedlots or the insane way chickens are treated - if I can find it. I believe an ethical businessman can find OPPORTUNITIES in ethics.


I agree with all of what you've said here and salute that your choices reflect caring for people and animals. On the last sentence - yes, but if you're a small business, in this country anyway, often you have diminished opportunities because of regulations made to suit the big players. For instance, we raise organic free-range beef, and would love to market it directly. But, the nearest abattoir is 400km from us as all the local ones were shut down, and we're required by legislation to slaughter at registered abattoirs if we want to sell the meat. In Europe, you can market your own meat as long as you get a professional slaughterman to kill your animal (and these do exist here, and do roving services for home kills, including mobile cool room - but you're only allowed to use that meat privately, or give it away for free, not sell it from your farm) and a veterinarian to certify the carcass. Not here though. So because of this, we have to market our beef through the general saleyards, and do not get paid extra for growing grass-fed beef with high welfare standards (shade, shelter, varied terrain etc).

It's simply not economical for a small farmer to truck their animals that far to an abattoir, and then back on a refrigerated truck. Every attempt made to start another local abattoir is foiled by someone or other, usually by quoting legislation - for example, a certain size is now legislated for an abattoir, e.g. must be able to process 10,000 animals a week, even though there is no logical reason for this. But it does stop small farmers banding together and running their own abattoir.

A local free-range chicken farmer sells birds at farmers' markets. He kills them at home and they've been trying to close him down for years, because he doesn't have an abattoir than can handle 1,000 birds a day. He can only continue to operate because they can't retrospectively apply new rules to him - so they try with making him have stainless steel facilities. He has kept from that large-scale expenditure (which would shut him down, or else he'd have to drastically increase the price of his product to cover this expense, which means he'd go bust anyway) by paying for independent laboratory testing that shows his facility actually exceeds required standards re bacterial contamination etc, and by threatening to take them to the Supreme Court if they make him have something there is no logical reason for him to have. But he shouldn't have to constantly battle these idiots. And he sells really tasty birds that have had a real free-range existence, not the pretend one that's acceptable by Australian standards (where you only have to open the door of a conventional shed to a yard an hour a day to be able to call yourself free range).

There's opportunities in ethical business, but also a lot of people trying to make it hard for you, or trying to increase cost of production by making you have facilities you don't need, etc etc. And this needs to stop...




> Lots of jobs need to be done. Not all are fun. Bucking hay by hand sucked. Moving water pipes by hand REALLY sucked, IMHO! That is why I quit after 2 weeks! Heck, I stayed collecting sheep pee for 4 months, so I guess I liked it better than moving irrigation pipes all day.










> I think an expanding economy is the best way to help the poor. Others disagree. It is a question about how to achieve a moral goal. The goal is ethical - helping others have a better life. HOW one gets to that goal is a political & economic choice about which decent folks can disagree. Honorably disagree. I disagree with Bernie Sanders. That doesn't make me evil. He disagrees with me. That doesn't make him evil. It seems a class in ethics ought to understand that...but our text only presents one side. Which I consider unethical.


Yeah, the reason why I don't think an expanding economy is the answer is because we don't have an expanding planet, but live on a planet with finite resources, being treated as if they are infinite by the current Western economic models. I think steady-state economies are the only thing that's ecologically sustainable in the long term, and I also think - and this is where a lot of people start having conniptions, on the right and the left alike - that human population growth needs to be addressed; preferably by people understanding that breeding above replacement rate is socially and environmentally unfair - but you need to understand ecology for that one, unfortunately. Or, be a farmer who realises that you can't keep on doubling the amount of cattle in your paddock every 20 years without eventually degrading the resource base long-term (the Sahara is a nice example - its expansion anyway) - and why, oh why, do we feel that we have to, can't we be content with a bit less, have to be so brainwashed that "growth is good" when it's quite the opposite, both ecologically and in terms of human happiness... which is actually lower in excessively consuming societies, than in societies which simply have enough, and don't think the idea of "having enough" is somehow anathema...

Addressing human population issues is vastly unpopular, of course... not just because people want the freedom to have a dozen children, regardless of what this does to the future of other people's children and indeed their own children - but also because without a growing population, you can't make squillions out of the Western economic system... and money is, of course, the new Golden Calf...

:music019:


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## bsms

I suspect we agree on more than we disagree, @SueC. I absolutely loathe managers who cook the books. They screw everyone - investors, employees, customers. They deserve LONG prison terms, and not in nicer "white-collar" crime prisons. I recently read a book about corruption in politics. He used Joe Biden (D) as one example. Mitch McConnell (R), the Senate Majority leader, was another. He argued only the stupid broke laws by their corruption because the lawmakers had had made so many forms of graft legal - such as funneling money to family members. As long as it isn't the politician or spouse, it is completely legal to be paid large sums of money in exchange for access. It is a disgusting practice and all the politicians do it!

I like free markets, but some articles on the right wing politically first opened my eyes to the extent big business uses government to KEEP them "big". Big business paying politicians - legally - to ensure policies that make it hard for new or modest businesses to compete with them. I call it "crony capitalism" - capitalism because the profit motive still matters, but rooted in knowing (and paying off) the right people in government. Examples include some amazing license regulations in Arizona, where a hairdresser needs more hours of formal schooling than a paramedic or paralegal!

I would love to buy grass-fed meat. Where I live, about the only way is to know a rancher, buy a steer, have it slaughtered and dressed, then haul it to your freezer. I've heard some places are starting to sell it commercially but I haven't found any. And yet...there are people raising beef within 20 miles of me. It seems insane that there is no practical way they can sell me meat directly instead of shipping their animals back to a feedlot, having them stuffed with who knows what, then slaughtered, and THEN have the meat available in stores! I just got a book on how meat has been raised and sold in America over the centuries. Haven't had time to read it, but skimming through it, it looks like crony capitalism at work.

Don't know if it is still true, but I visited Montana in the late 70s. If you knew someone, you could go to a dairy and buy milk fresh from the cow. Totally illegal, though. Maybe still is. I understand SOME health concerns, but the illegal trade went on because you could pay a dairyman twice the rate for his milk while paying much less than the milk cost in the stores. And of course, no sales tax!

I'm a conservative with a very strong libertarian streak. The libertarian part is getting stronger with every passing year. I'm convinced we're seeing the lowest minority unemployment rates in our history, not because of benevolent government regulation, but because of changes to the tax law - specifically 100% bonus depreciation. That makes it much easier for a business to buy equipment needed to expand. Large businesses don't really needed it. It is critical to a small business. Another change was expanding de minimis rules. It used to be a business computer costing $501 had to be depreciated over 5 years. Now anything under $2500 can be written off as an expense - which is, of course, what it is. An expense. The only one who benefits from depreciating an expense is the government!

So on the one hand, government is crucial. I want crooked businessmen to go to jail. I'd love to see crooked politicians go there too, but after watching Hillary Clinton walk after doing what would have put me in jail for the rest of my life, I'm not going to hold my breathe waiting for government to punish crooked politicians! On either side! I suspect a lot of senators want the impeachment charges to go away as quickly as possible for fear their own finances will be brought to light. Again - true of both sides. 

And I think some laws - the Clean Air Act, for example - have been wonderful. So the government does SOME great things. But government also does a lot of harm. Some intentional (crony capitalism) and much unintentional (regulating fresh milk).

We agree about the effect of population. But I think an economy can expand without needing new people. Smart phones are a huge business now. They found an opportunity to make peoples lives better, and existing people buy them in huge numbers because they WANT them. I think grass-fed beef and free-range chickens are a niche market that could employ people without needing new people created.

The Myth of the Robber Barons is an interesting book. He argues the so-called "robber barons" got rich by providing cheaper goods and cheaper services than their crony capitalism competitors. He cites Vanderbilt, once the richest man in America. His competition for carrying passengers in New York eventually resulted in him giving free passage on his boats because he could sell food on the boats to cover all his costs and still make a profit. He didn't create new people. He created a more efficient way of providing a service to existing people. 

Vanderbilt was also willing to make money on the side. He certainly was NOT a saint. But businesses and economies can expand by finding new markets (free range chickens?) and new technology (Apple?) and providing better services. That is the sort of business expansion that is sustainable without Arizona's approach of importing 1.2 million new people every decade because "the economy needs it"!

PS: I flew in two seat fighters. F-4s (my favorite), F-111s (not too fond of them) and EF-111s (good). The Weapon Systems Officer / Electronic Warfare Officer managed things like the radar, jamming systems, bomb, etc while the pilot concentrated on flying. My job has largely been replaced by computers, although I think humans do the job better than computers can. An F-4, front and rear cockpits:

















​F-111s had side-by-side seating. I strongly preferred front/back:



















It had an ejection CAPSULE instead of ejection SEATS:










By J.smith - Own work, CC BY-SA 3.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=5376696​


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## SueC

By the way, for what it's worth, both the major candidates of your last federal election made me want to throw up - I didn't think either of them are remotely decent human beings. :evil: Do you have any minority parties in the US that fielded more palatable candidates? Or was that your only choice? We have two major parties here much like your Republicans versus Democrats (Liberal vs Labor), and umpteen minority parties. The best recent government we had, about ten years back, balance of power was held by two independent candidates who happened to also be decent people, and I felt represented by them, and the major parties couldn't just do as they pleased. Last election here, like where you are, both major candidates were insufferable. There were a lot of protest votes - people defacing ballot papers instead of voting (compulsory to turn up here), people voting for the most ridiculous minority parties you could think of like, I don't know, the Spaghetti Party or whatever. Many people are so fed up with politics. What is sorely needed is for decent people to stand for political positions, like those two independents of yore, who were genuine, decent blokes.

Hobart has a new mayor, and she said she only got into politics because she felt that to change things, decent people will have to step up and go for political positions, and that if this doesn't happen, we're all doomed...


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## whisperbaby22

No we are not doomed, we are becoming a lazy electorate - here in the states. History repeats itself to those who do not study it, as we all know. The electorate must become involved. Going to local council meetings and really reading the propositions we are voting on is what is needed. 

There is currently a lot of "bread and circuses" here in the US.


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## knightrider

> that human population growth needs to be addressed; preferably by people understanding that breeding above replacement rate is socially and environmentally unfair - but you need to understand ecology for that one, unfortunately.


It appears that our human population is starting to decrease. The theory is that the education of women is affecting human population growth. Most women know how many children they want, and the more educated they are, the more control they have over the children they have. Few women want more than 2 or 3 children and some want no children. The more educated women become, the better our population growth becomes.


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## SueC

(It's the rate of increase that's starting to decrease, but the overall population is still increasing, if that makes any sense. One problem is still that contraception is not as economical and available as it needs to be for women in poor countries to be able to reliably plan their family sizes. In one of the surveys I read, women in a particular part of Africa wanted around 3-4 kids and ended up having around 5-6 because of lack of economical and available contraception. It's hard for us to envisage but it's still happening.)


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## bsms

Posted this on a thread debating the harm of gag bits:

----------------------------------------------------------​
OK, first ride with Bandit in a gag bit is done. It was more interesting than I expected. Between school, weather and family issues, I've only ridden him a couple of times in the last couple of months. My daughter is home on leave from the military. We walked Trooper and Bandit out in the desert, on lead lines, yesterday - and Bandit was TENSE. For some reason, I wasn't expecting him to be tense today...

Played a little with the bit from the ground. I couldn't get it to go very high in his mouth. The corners of his lips are uncommonly low. I adjusted to get the mouthpiece off his canines. Pulling didn't get it to rotate very far at all:








With both reins pulled, it didn't rotate to the stop. Part way there, the gag action ended and it simply pulled like an O-ring snaffle. But the sun was setting, so I mounted up. We did half a lap and then I let him put his head down, letting him eat while the "Booma rein" prevented my reins from sliding off his neck, as in this picture from a month ago:

















At that point, something spooked him. Hard. He leaped and spun and headed toward the corral. That is SOOOOO not what I wanted to experience! The Booma Rein thing got an ops check. It took me 2-3 strides to get hold of the reins and get the slack out, then 2-3 strides to stop him. I was NOT planning on his first stop in a gag bit being like that!

Bandit doesn't get wound up in an arena often. When he does, it takes 20+ minutes to calm him down. That was true today. He was...well, let's just say more "athletic" today than normal! We have a 10-12 foot deep gully that runs by the west and northwest side of the arena. Wild animals use it to cross the neighborhood. Something in that direction had him on full alert. I went to one-handed riding. We did a few sideways squirts. I was trying what I called the "Grandpa Bear" stirrup length setting, to contrast it to the "Baby Bear", "Momma Bear" and "Poppa bear" lengths. Once I got him settled enough to dismount, "Grandpa Bear" went back to "Poppa Bear". Grandpa Bear was simply too hard to ride going sideways rapidly.

As he started to settle, I gave him more chances to eat some grass. At one point, he snagged a piece that included a 4' long Bermuda runner, and we did a few laps with him sucking up the Bermuda runner like a kid eating spaghetti. With time, we worked our way to the northwest. After 30 minutes, he stopped acting nervous. We quit at 40 minutes with the sun well below the horizon.

Now...how did the gag bit work? 90% like his O-ring snaffle. There were two small tendencies, small enough that I can't be certain they were real:

1 - He tended to tip his nose more to the outside, in brief movements, while neck reining in a turn. That could have been nervousness, or it could have been the shank was giving more twisting movement to the bit than one gets with an O-ring. It wasn't dramatic and by the end of ride it may have gone away.

2 - His head tended to be LOWER. Not higher. The gag was not causing him to raise his head. If anything, he carried it lower than I expected given his nerves. By the end of ride, his headset was lower than normal (based on 4.5 years of riding him).

I wasn't using a lot of contact. I'd have LIKED to use almost none at all, but he was too nervous for that. But if anything, he worked lower and got lower faster with the gag than I would have expected him to do in his Billy Allen or O-ring.

This picture is of a one-rein pull:








I checked. It was still well below his molars. Realize his starting point was with the bit adjusted so it couldn't get closer than 1/2" to his canines [about 3/4-1 inch above at a rest]. With his lips hanging so low, I don't want bits any higher than absolutely needed. So the results I got are NOT comparable to someone who uses a noseband to keep the bit high in the mouth, or to someone who adjusts the bit high to begin with. If someone rides like this, they may see different results:








I plan to try Bandit some more in the gag. Today was not a fair introduction for him but it certainly was not bad. He got calmer and softer the entire ride and was starting to ride nicely at the end. His tension wasn't the bit. We got off to a bad start but the reins were extremely loose - halfway down his neck slack - when he spooked. I'm certain it felt different to him than the O-ring or Billy Allen curb. But he wasn't afraid of the bit. He mostly understood it. He neck reined ok at the beginning and got better with practice. He did NOT raise his head. On the contrary, he worked lower and got there faster with the gag bit. I think.

PS: I bought a second Booma Rein for use with Trooper. I think I like it.

----------------------------------------------------------​I didn't see any sign the bit was rubbing his lips next to the hole in the mouthpiece. Any tension pulls the mouthpiece a tiny bit out of his mouth, away from his lips. I'll watch it though. Maybe try bit guards.

The Grandpa Bear setting is nice when riding a horse moving mostly forward or back. Today confirmed it is too low for a horse moving fast sideways. I stayed on but "_Thank the Lord for My Saddle Horn!_" At the Poppa Bear setting, the saddle horn was less important. I sprained my back lifting a wheelbarrow full of wet horse poop up into the trash can last week - I ought to know better by now - and that plus today's ride has my back throbbing. First real chance in ages to test a few things on some mild spooks. Mia always kept me current. So some good lessons. And Bandit was much calmer by the end. 

I don't think HE knew what was bothering him, but something had him feeling really bad about the northwest corner. I didn't try to bully him to go there, but we spent a lot of time going back and forth, gradually getting closer, until he was willing to accept it.

Too tired to spell check. If there are errors, please forgive me. It's Motrin Time.


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## bsms

PS: Just want to add it felt good to be riding again, even if Bandit was being...athletic! I think he felt good about it too by the end. I think he has "Corral Fever" instead of "Cabin Fever". It was good for him to get out, move, express himself. *And it felt good to be with him again!* So glad school is over!

PSS: We may be staying here for a few more years due to family issues. Not my wife and I but one of our kids (divorce). I'll try to fix up the house and property during the next 6 months and we'll see what happens. We might try buying some land and then building a few years from now. We really would like to get somewhere north of Phoenix but...life is so confusing at times!


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> but...life is so confusing at times!


Agree 100%.
In my very limited (one ride) experience with a gag, I also noticed it had a head lowering effect.


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## SueC

This is very interesting stuff, @bsms. I like reading "road tests" better than reading "theory"! ;-)


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## bsms

I'm glad southern Arizona has mountain lions again and sorry these were killed. I do tend to carry a gun hiking. Just in case. More concerned about 2-legged predators, though.


> Three mountain lions are found feeding on HUMAN remains near popular Arizona trail
> 
> Three mountain lions have been killed in Arizona after they were found feeding on human remains near a popular hiking trail. Pima County Sheriff's Department said Tuesday it had found human remains at Pima Canyon Trail *in the hills north of Tucson.*
> 
> The three lions, which *are not believed to have harmed anyone*, were killed after human remains were found in their droppings, Arizona Game and Fish Department said....
> 
> ...'Rarely scavengers, such abnormal behavior made them more likely to attack humans in the future,' Game and Fish said in a statement, adding the big cats 'repeatedly showed no fear of responding officers.'...
> 
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...HUMAN-remains-near-popular-Arizona-trail.html









The youngest & I went hiking in Saguaro National Park yesterday. Will post some pictures and tell about the old woman we met riding solo after I get the pictures transferred and am more in the mood to write.


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## bsms

Done so little riding the last 3 months that I stayed in the arena, wore my unused white Tipperary & after 5 minutes, dropped my stirrups to the Grandpa setting and did the rest of the ride that way. I don't know if it is less secure than slightly higher or if I just need to get used to it. I'll say this - it makes cantering more comfortable, which suggests I've been bracing in the stirrups without really meaning to. Sucks me a little more forward in the saddle, encourages me to be more upright, and it just felt realy good at the canter. Bandit seemed happy with it too.

After all the talk about various bits...I was buying hay at the tack & feed store. I saw a nicely finished, sweet iron with copper inserts D-ring snaffle with a single, SMALLER knuckle than my O-ring snaffle. For $20. Brought it home and used it. Can't say it was better than the O-ring, but it certainly was no worse. I like - and maybe Bandit appreciates - the smaller diameter of the joint knuckle.

Bandit did fine. I just felt really awkward - hence the helmet & arena time. I've been doing a lot of jogging and it tightens what needs to be loose for riding. By ride's end, I felt like my legs and hips had had a professional massage. Felt great. The longer stirrups help me lean less. Bandit seemed happy enough in the trot without me being fully off his back - just "less weight" - and felt very good at the canter. Good ride but we may do a few more before heading out on the trails again.

From my hike with my youngest on 1 January in Saguaro National Park (East) - the Rincon Mountains:








First time I remember seeing flowing water there, so I guess all the rain is having an effect. We parked just off the road, walked back to the trailhead, then went on a trail we had never been on. Rocky but it got us here:

















We pretty much had things to ourselves once we were over 1/4 mile from pavement. But while we were enjoying the stream, a lady rode up. Solo. Based on the old women in our church, I'd guess her age in the upper 70s. She explained she couldn't find anyone to ride with but that her horse was a little nervous.

I admitted Bandit had just been getting good at going out alone when life interfered and that I expected to start him all over again.

"_Oh yes_" she said. "_I restart this fellow about twice a year. He's gaited, and when he gets nervous, he gaits. So I tell him 'This gaiting is fun! We can do this all day!' Then he decides it is too much work, so I tell him, 'Walking saves energy. You must be very smart!' Then he gets nervous, starts gaiting, and I tell him, 'Oh, this is SO much fun! How long shall we do it?' But yes, I'll just get him really good going out alone and then...life...gets in the way of my riding. Bummer!_"

We talked horses for a while, of course. I admire the heck out of her. Late 70s. Alone. Somewhat nervous horse. Lots of rocks. Out away from where anyone could find her. But happy to be out with her horse and not willing to stay in the arena where her friends feel safe to ride.

But honestly? I'm not God's Gift to Horses! It took 30 minutes today before I felt like I belonged on one! Once it felt good, it felt VERY good...but I had no business tackling the desert solo with Bandit, old woman's example or not, when I didn't feel right.

Hike your own hike. Ride your own horse. If it doesn't feel right, maybe it isn't. But don't let fear conquer you forever. When it feels right - and no more school! - Bandit and I will go out again. I suspect, right now, that I'm the limiting factor. That's OK. We're not quitting. Just set back by life. But not forever! :Angel:

PS: I loved the lady's approach to her horse! No condemnation. No fussing. No anger. Just..."_Oh, this makes you happy? It makes me happy too!_" That is the kind of rider I hope to become! What an inspiration she was!


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## knightrider

> I loved the lady's approach to her horse! No condemnation. No fussing. No anger. Just..."Oh, this makes you happy? It makes me happy too!" That is the kind of rider I hope to become! What an inspiration she was!


I just loved this too. Thanks for sharing. We are lucky to have you on the forum, bsms

Do you know, when I was a kid in 4-H 100,000 years ago, I was told that when these kinds of incidents occurred, I was to immediately correct the horse because the horse should always do what I demanded, even if he was doing what we both wanted. I knew that was hooey when I was 12 years old.


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## bsms

Sunset from our side yard tonight. Click to enlarge, if you wish:


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## SueC

Wow, what a fantastic sky! 

And that has to be one of the most inspirational stories I heard in a long time, thank you for sharing. Besides the excellent example for what you can keep doing as you get older, that is such a great approach to horses! :happydance:

Hooey indeed, @knightrider!  I'm going to have to start using that word! :rofl:


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## egrogan

Just catching up on your journal @bsms. Seeing the saguaros was one of the highlights of 2019 for my husband and I. Such a special place.


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## bsms

Not as spectacular as last week's, but still a nice backdrop to cleaning the horse corral this evening:








Did nearly 4 miles jogging today. Was too pooped to ride Bandit as well. Rode Bandit yesterday after a week of high winds or rain. He was kind of...bouncy. Not rebellious, just a LOT of energy he needed to burn off! The absolute maximum dimensions of my "arena" are only 125' x 80 feet, and more realistically, 100 x 70. To stay inside without danger from the rails, maybe 90 x 50-60 feet. So basically just a continuous turn at any speed, and we hit a gallop a few times.

Briefly tried the "Grandpa" stirrup setting. As nice as it feels on a relaxed horse, it felt dangerous on a very energetic horse. So went right back to the Poppa Bear setting and kind of "surfed" Bandit instead of riding him. The longer setting just didn't allow my feet to support me when things were more aggressive. But Bandit NEEDED some hard moving to get the boogers out of his brain. After 45 minutes, he was relaxing. And sweating on what was still a winter day for us. I would SOOOOOO love to have an arena or level area at least 300 feet long!

That was a big problem for Mia, I think. She didn't get as "I'm taking over" as Bandit will get, but she still needed, really needed, to MOVE. Unhappily, I couldn't give her that.

And with my oldest daughter's divorce and various issues it entails, we're looking at staying here for another 3-5 years. Life isn't always about what we want, is it!

:shrug:​


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## bsms

Cleaning the corral and feeding time. Brought my phone with me. Cleaned to "Seven Spanish Angels". Notice the horses seem uninterested in the sunset:

















My wife went to our roof to take a picture:


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## weeedlady

Thanks BSMS I really like that song! Nice sunsets. And yeah, life often gets in the way.


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## SueC

Yeah, I think we look at the sky more often than horses do, but I remember one time when Sunsmart had just finished his food after a late ride, and the full moon was coming up like a lantern in the twilight, and he went over to the gate to the Common and stood there looking at the moon with a really focused, but relaxed, facial expression. He ended up resting a hind leg and still looking at the moon, and I went over to stand next to him to look at the moon with him.


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## egrogan

Hi @bsms. Hope you and your family are doing well. Haven't heard from you in awhile!


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## bsms

Haven't logged on for a long time. Sometimes I read a post or thread and just don't feel good about humans and riders and what people expect of horses. And then I need to step back for a while. Got the flu about the same time & twisted my hip as I was coming off the flu, so yesterday was my first ride in quite a while.

Just stepped wrong while feeding the horses one evening and twisted something in my hip. But riding went OK yesterday so hopefully I'll start riding more regularly. Unfortunately the winds are 30 mph today and forecast to hit 40 mph tomorrow, so maybe this weekend. But we'll be out of town next week. My youngest is supposed to graduate from Defense Language Institute after a year of Hebrew and we're going to buck the trend and fly to attend. Then she'll have 4 months of training in Texas in something before she finally starts working for real....18 months after starting boot camp.


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## tinyliny

may I ask where she attended this language school? is this the one at the Precidio in SF?


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## bsms

Yes, she is at Monterey just south of SF. Her next stop is San Angelo, Texas. Then....somewhere back east. She likes languages, but I don't think she really realized what studying a language all day for a year would be like! It would be torture for me. Couldn't learn a foreign language to save my soul. Took 2 years of French in Jr High and 4 of German in HS. The teachers only passed me because they needed the enrollment to keep the class going.

https://www.dliflc.edu/


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## tinyliny

Are students enrolled in the military?


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## bsms

^^ I think, @tinyliny , that the large majority are military. I believe they also have civilians who work for the government. My wife has visited it before while I stayed home and took care of the dogs and horses. Next week an old family friend will take care of the animals for a few days. My youngest didn't mind the language studies but is getting tired of mandatory formations, mandatory PT, etc. Although she loves hiking and hikes FAST, she loathes running.

She likes getting a paycheck, though....:cheers:


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## SueC

Hullo, @bsms! Flu isn't fun; we just had it badly last year. I hope you'll get your immunity back up for the next viral season with its old and new foes! Have some more garlic. ;-) Ever used tiger balm? It's great for niggly things like a pulled hip. I like the red stuff best - smells great and works better than the clear stuff, but don't wear white clothes when using it. 

If you're sick of horse talk, there's some excellent hiking pictures over at my journal courtesy of a recent guest!

Best wishes to you and your two-legged and four-legged family! :cheers:


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## bsms

Got back from California last night. We were asked not to post any pictures of the graduation online due to security concerns. But I will point out that out of nearly 100 graduates, my youngest was one of four to graduate "with highest honors"! And we talked to one of her instructors. When the new students first arrived, they were asked to pick a phrase that would define who they are. That became the first thing they memorized. She picked "*I hear the desert calling...*"

Too bad, because she was supposed to fly to Texas today for follow on training...but yesterday morning the military put a hold on all transfers due to coronavirus concerns. So she'll stay at Monterey and be given busy work to occupy her time. I understand the health concerns but I'm not convinced blanket travel bans and curfews are the best approach. In any case...no one has asked me for my opinion, and we may have attended the last public graduation for a long time.


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## bsms

fftopic:​
This is NOT politics, unless one talks about the politics of the 1790s....

Came across this quote by Ben Franklin about John Adams:
_
“I am persuaded however that he means well for his Country, *is always an honest Man, often a Wise One, but sometimes and in some things, absolutely out of his Senses*._”

― Benjamin Franklin, The Papers of Benjamin Franklin, Vol. 40: Volume 40: May 16 through September 15, 1783 

I've been reading a lot about Thomas Jefferson lately. This book is a great read if you don't mind seeing how the politics of 1783-1812 was just as bitter, just as full of ego over mind and every bit as wild as anything we see today:

The Great Divide: The Conflict between Washington and Jefferson That Defined America, Then and Now

"_George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were both tall Virginians who made crucial contributions to winning American independence. But they were otherwise polar opposites, with wildly diverging visions of their fledgling nation's destiny. In The Great Divide, Thomas Fleming quarries a lifetime's study of America's turbulent Founding Era to recount a character-clash waged against the backdrop of chronic domestic discord and overshadowed by blood-soaked revolution in France. The author's robust prose leaves no doubt where his own sympathies lie, but all readers of history will relish his gripping exploration of a conflict between realism and idealism that still resonates today._"—Stephen Brumwell, author of George Washington: Gentleman Warrior and winner of the George Washington Book Prize

He isn't entirely fair to Jefferson, but Jefferson was also an erratic genius. He could be brilliant and then, minutes later, an absolute idiot. I've started work on the 6 volume biography of Jefferson by Dumas...lots of reading ahead there! But as I read Fleming's book, what really struck me was how duplicity, a lying press (on both sides), stupid anger, vicious attacks and hatred were as much a part of daily politics in 1790 as in 2020! It had me imagining Tom Jefferson and Al Hamilton debating each other on Hannity, which would at least not have resulted in Hamilton being killed!

Incidentally, as President, Jefferson tried to block out 2 hours each afternoon to go riding for exercise and to clear his mind.

BTW: If you believe Tom Jefferson had sex with Sally Hemings, I recommend this book:

The Jefferson- Hemings Myth: An American Travesty 

He was one of 8 Jeffersons who must have been the father of Sally Hemings last child, and he was personally dishonest enough (IMHO) that he might have been. But his brother was a strong candidate for the father of the last child, and, unlike what a lot of news reports said, no DNA tests have been done on most of Sally Hemings children. The only child shown to have come from a Jefferson male came when Tom was in his 60s and there were multiple other Jefferson males - all younger - who MIGHT have been the father.

Either way, Jefferson was as conflicted about slavery as he was on many other issues. George Washington eventually concluded Jefferson was deeply dishonest and had nothing to do with him for the rest of Washington's life.

Interesting books in case anyone is idle due to various shutdowns.....


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## tinyliny

Sounds really fascinating. I love the book, "John Adams". and the TV series made about same man. But, to get really indepth understanding, I think your reading list is much better.


One can hardly imagine how consequential each decision made was back then. the divisivness must have been painful, especially after such a hard 6 years of war.


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## bsms

On the 4th of July, I like to watch the episode of "John Adams" about the writing of the Declaration of Independence:






Also have grown to like the musical "1776":


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## SueC

Thanks, @bsms, I always enjoy reading your commentary on your diverse reading!


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## bsms

Non-essential veterinary visits banned in Michigan during coronavirus pandemic

"_Telemedicine should be used to the fullest extent possible for both essential and non-essential veterinary services, the order states..._"

Glad I'm not in Michigan. Anyone know if farriers are "essential"? I'm guessing my farrier will assume he is "essential". Had our horses teeth floated a few days ago. Hadn't been done since 2015. Their teeth were not gross but did need some filing. No beans on the three geldings. They are all pretty low-maintenance.

Going into a vet's office to wait for elective types of vet care might be different. But outdoor work?

Don't think my horses feet can be trimmed over the phone. If the farrier figures out a way to do so, he'll be rich....


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## carshon

Our local vets have curbside pick up. They are urging customers to not come into the clinic unless it is an emergency. Farm calls are still being done with no restrictions.


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## bsms

I should mention the person who did the horses' teeth came to our place and did them in the back yard. I'd be very hesitant to go to a doctor's office or a vet's. Places where people get squeezed close together with recirculating air are risky. Out in the open, with fresh air that has been blowing for miles across the desert? Not too risky.

On @gottatrot's journal, I mentioned a friend who has coronavirus. He had a major heart attack 7 years ago and has already lived longer than the doctor who did the operation expected. He had refused to go in for a test until weakness in his legs caused him to collapse. He was sedated and on a ventilator shortly after arriving at the hospital.

The last day has seen various organs starting to fail. The doctor talked with the family and they have agreed to pull him off the ventilator. I don't know if it has happened yet, but it will certainly be done today. It is extremely likely he will die very quickly after that.

I think when you hit 60, maybe before, you gain a certain fatalism. You have enough friends who have died and realize your years are starting to run out. A prolonged death scares you. My Mom had Alzheimer's / dementia and slowly lost her mind. The last 3 years of her life were filled with pain, humiliation and agony. THAT is scary. Death, by itself, is not so scary. Not something you volunteer for early, but none of us leave alive. If and when it is my time, I hope I go more like our friend than like my Mom!


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## tinyliny

I agree, @bsms. But, when I read some posts on FB from doctors describing how a person dies from this virus, it scared me. There is nothing more scary than the feeling of suffocating.
I experienced this once, where I thought I was suffocating and about to die, and it was one of the worst feelings I've ever had.
So, yeah, if a person can guarantee an easy passing, well, then so be it.


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## egrogan

Sorry to hear about your friend @bsms. I have started to see friends posting positive corona tests on FB, but they are resting at home vs. hospitalized, at least for now. I wonder if this experience will help us (the general us) be more open in conversations about death and dying? It's something my husband and I have always talked about, and made specific provisions for in our legal documents (up to and including physician-assisted death, which requires money set aside to go to a place where that is allowed since it isn't here). From where I sit today, I feel more afraid of something happening to my husband and being the one left alive than I do of dying myself, but of course that's easy to say when I'm not staring down a situation where I might die myself.


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## phantomhorse13

I am very sorry to hear about your friend. I hope he passes quickly.

Having worked years in the critical care and ER, I think my attitude about life and death is different than many others. I believe in quality over quantity and have seen there are worse things than death.

Like @egrogan , I hope I go before my husband, however due to our ages, that is unlikely. My DH is not taking all this as seriously as he should IMO and I am left hoping his casual attitude doesn't come back to bite him..


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## bsms

What do y'all think....can I pull this look off for a trip to town, even though I wear bifocals? :cowboy:


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## gottatrot

Ha ha we will all be wearing bandanas soon. 

Very sorry about your dying friend.

I just read the posts on this journal after posting similar thoughts on my journal. I believe like @PhantomHorse that quality of life and death are important. Having seen many people die, I am an advocate for allowing death when it is inevitable. Meaning we can't stop death when it is time, but we can often make the process very long and miserable. I have seen it both ways many times.

I also believe in honesty. It's not always possible to know if someone is going to die, but sometimes it is. In those cases sometimes doctors or nurses just avoid the topic. I believe people deserve to know. I have told many people, you are dying, or your mom is dying (they all did die shortly, btw, I don't say it lightly). Then I ask what they need such as family calls, spiritual care, and tell them what to expect.

It is scary for family, my mom was scared for both my grandparents. She wanted to know what all the signs of dying were, and how it would look and when it would happen.

But when you talk and educate and do everything possible to make it easier (modern medications are great), you see it is a natural process we all will go through. In my opinion once you reach an old or unhealthy state it is better to state that your wishes are to go naturally.

I believe people were more familiar with death and accepting of it until modern times. Literally I have had someone say they never thought of their 98 yr old mother dying, and it was a surprise.


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## gottatrot

@egrogan and phantom, I need your training program. My husband has to go first because I think he needs me to take care of him. Somehow you must have trained your guys better.


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## bsms

Finally rode Bandit today!

OK, it was 30 minutes and half of it was sitting while he ate. But between the cold at Christmas, flu in late Jan, then a twisted left hip, and then a twisted back in March...I could probably count my 2020 rides on the fingers of one hand with a finger or two left over!

Dropped the stirrups a hole to the Grandpa Bear setting. I said last fall or maybe Jan that it didn't offer enough support in a spook...but I did stay on the last one, it feels good in a canter and maybe it just needs me to get used to it. Since I've ridden so little the last 4 months, EVERYTHING felt a bit weird today. So I dropped my stirrups a hole and will try to get used to that setting. Very "Old West" style but it felt OK.

Bandit was fine. I put a Billy Allen curb back on the halter. Got it adjusted right for his teeth but had to loosen the curb strap a hole before it felt right to him. Apart from that, we were good. Bandit acted like we had ridden yesterday. Rode him out onto the street a couple of times. Hadn't actually ridden him on pavement in months and he was a little tense, so we went until he was clearly uncomfortable, then another 50 feet, then turned around. We won't discuss how quickly he felt a little tense....

But my back held up. Afterward I whacked weeds, which has stressed my back when I've tried it the last few weeks but was OK today. Ready for weed-whacking:








Works for weeds. Don't know if it has any functionality against coronavirus but I'm not planning on starting to wear a mask anytime soon. Unless pushed. Let's face it, I'm no Clint Eastwood. It is tough to look tough in bifocals! Oh well. *Regardless of how mild or how short, it felt GOOD to get a leg over a horse again!*

:cowboy:​


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## gottatrot

Great you had a nice ride. I feel very fortunate to currently be at a barn that is isolated with a big property and no people around so I can still ride.

All the beaches, trails and arenas in OR are closed so everyone is riding alone, but you are never alone with a good horse for company.


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## bsms

We're hoping to take a look at a possible home to buy this week. Manufactured home with a shared well on 5 acres that borders - without fences - state and USFS land. About 5 miles from here. The wife & I have gone past there hiking. It will probably not pan out but it is the most interesting possibility we've considered. The horses would love it. The super rocky ground we have phases out at about that point so there would be places with decent dirt roads for the horses. We could even let them run flat out while riding.

If it falls through - and this isn't the first one we've considered only to find a show-stopper a few days later - I need to get a small horse trailer and start trailering the horses past our super rocky ground.

Going to try Bandit again today using Mia's old sidepull rope halter. Used it with her in the little arena and she was usually OK with it. But when she got nervous, the rope halter was worthless for getting her brain re-engaged. Bandit is more level headed. Also more stubborn...Mia was a very willing horse when not afraid, while Bandit is more along the lines of, "_Who made YOU boss?_" But we'll try it if only to see what happens. I'll take his bridle out too in case it fails.


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## bsms

Typed too soon and jinxed myself. Home looked OK outside. Very good location. Trashed inside. Had NOT been maintained! It would be best to tear it down and have another home built..... ARGHHHHH!


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## tinyliny

I do believe you've found your new profile picture:


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## SueC

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl

I hope you're all well, and staying well. :bowwdown:

The :bowwdown: is because I'm on @bsms's journal here. For a :hug: you'll need to come to my journal - and they're guaranteed hygienic cyberhugs! :Angel:

:bowwdown:


----------



## bsms

A little humor time:



















:wave:​


----------



## bsms

Some not so happy news for a fan of the old westerns. 

James Drury, famous for his role in "The Virginian" (1962 to 1971, 249 episodes) died today. Age 85. Natural causes. He and Doug McClure ("Trampas") were both pretty good on a horse. I bounce more than they do...


----------



## bsms

'There were times when we had five Virginian episodes shooting on the same day,' Drury recalled in his biography on his official web site.

'I would literally ride on horseback from set to set to give two lines here, three lines there, then over here to do 10 pages of script.'


----------



## lb27312

@bsms - Sorry to hear about the house! Hopefully something will come along... Funny pictures!


----------



## SueC

@bsms, we were really bummed about a few offers on houses we'd set our hearts on not coming through for us. But THEN we found the place we live at now. The right thing for you will turn up! 

Good to hear you're riding even a little. And sorry about your friend. That was the first COVID-19 death related to our circle of people, but I bet there will be more soon. On the one hand we all have to die of something eventually, but that's cold comfort in the scenario of course. Life is complicated. I don't think COVID-19 is a worse death than cancer, for example - because they put you under for intubation anyway, so you don't feel the respiratory distress at that point. And it's nothing compared to being nailed to a cross and left to die slowly. Happy Easter. Not meaning to be macabre - for decades that was my point of comparison, and to an extent it still is. 

Something to cheer everyone up. I wrote a little nose hair rant today as a little exercise. Here it is:

Nasal hair. What are you supposed to do with it? One fine day you get married, and another fine day you wake up with the morning sunbeams on your beloved's face, and you get all gooey looking at it until you notice there's a hair hanging out of his nose. You wonder if he inhaled a dog hair by accident, and move closer to his sleeping form to scrutinise it. The thing is black and pointy and appears to be attached. mg:

I ask you. It said nothing about _that_ in the paperwork. You can't pull these things out; if you don't believe me, try one of your own, of which you have plenty even if they're still behaving themselves and staying out of general view. Would secateurs work? Hmmm, no, they don't fit into the aperture. Maybe those hairdressing scissors, they're nice and pointy. _Hold still! I am relieving you of an aberration. _Snip. _Oi! I liked that hair the way it was._

That's the problem with being essentially photocopied over and over since you grew up. Have you ever seen what happens to a photocopy of a photocopy of a photocopy ad infinitum? Where's that nice clear print of yore? What are all these foreign objects? Grrrr.

Michael Leunig wrote about it, actually:

_Each year my mirror seems much older
Somewhat duller and a fraction colder
The glass which always gleamed and twinkled
Now appears all scratched and wrinkled
Appears more blotchy, tired and droopy
Confused and haggard, dazed and loopy
Sadder, slower, grimmer, glummer
I think that I've been sold a bummer._

Yeah well. I hear they have attachments for electric shavers especially designed for the removal of aberrant nasal hairs. _Krrrrrk_. That's the beauty of capitalism, there's always a hundred gadgets for everything, some of which may actually work, and few of which won't break within a year or two. But that's another rant. A much bigger one...


----------



## bsms

My theory @SueC: The hair on my head, after long years of fighting gravity, is starting to give up. It is then pulled through the empty space below and come out of openings I'd rather it did not! And it seems my hair is racist - black hair heads for my nose, and white hairs head for my ears. Not fond of racists, so I cut them down as quickly as they emerge. The round style nose hair cutters are durable. Buy one for life and just change batteries. The straight edge style trimmers are delicate. Last about a year. But they do a much better job! So I figure for $10....it is an annual expense. Otherwise it will look like I'm growing a mustache when I am not!

Rode Bandit two days ago. For the first 15 minutes he was tense and a bit squirrelly. I tried sitting his kidney-pounding tense trot. That was a mistake. My sore left side survived, but my healed right side took a hard impact and was throbbing for 24 hours. I didn't ride yesterday and may not today because I really don't want to re-injure anything that is healing. I've had back pain since early February and I'm tired of it!

However, I can go jogging. I need to stay on pavement or very level trails. Up/down I can handle provided it is very level side to side. Most of our trails are twisted with gullies that create a lot of side-to-side variation. I cannot run on those. It makes me sympathetic for our horses, who probably feel much the same way while hauling people on their backs! So my preferred running in the desert is out.

But on pavement or a level path, I've hit the 4 mile mark the last few days. I can't stretch out and go without it hurting, but I can do an 8:30-9:00 minute clip fine. That feels good. The weather the last few days has been awesome - 75 degrees, sunny, mild breezes! If I could afford to ride, it would be great. But.....

For the ride two days ago, I drug out my slick leather saddle combined with the full sized sheepskin. The sheepskin makes riding Bandit almost like riding a normal horse in terms of width. He's slender, but the saddle and sheepskin are not. It has one big advantage over my Abetta, though. The stirrups are hung forward of my hip. With the Abetta the neutral position is directly under my hip and I don't like that. I find it easier to stay on when my horse squirts sideways or back when my stirrups are a little ahead of me.

With the Abetta, I've taken to longer stirrups so I can place my feet more forward without bracing. The rest of the saddle I love. But I'll admit it felt GOOD to ride with a relaxed leg AND my feet just hanging where I wanted them.

On the negative side, it felt like it weighed 80 lbs! The Abetta is 17 lbs. The SCALE says the leather one is 30 lbs - but my shoulder says the leather one is at least 50 lbs heavier.

After the first 15 minutes, Bandit settled and the remainder of the ride went well. I was already sore but he was smoother and less inclined to squirt sideways. I was using the Billy Allen bit and we got in a few short canters where I felt OK keeping my free hand on my thigh like a proper western rider. 

Bandit before ride:








After ride. We've had another very wet spring and there is a lot of grass growing. Note the stirrups just hang right behind the edge of the swells, well in front of the seat pocket.


----------



## bsms

Don't know if it is available free for streaming, but this is a great movie about the military and leadership, written by combat veterans and loosely based on a real incident. Lots of great performances with Gregory Peck in the lead:











When I went to Squadron Officer School, this film was shown and then discussed at length. Forget the CGI action scenes popular today. Lots of talk - but one of the greatest war films ever made. By modern standards it is "slow" but for those over 18....slow can be suspense.

Another great film, written and produced long before CGI made so much unwatchable to me, was Patton. The opening is drawn word for word from a series of speeches Patton made before the invasion in Europe:


----------



## whisperbaby22

12 O'clock High is a great film.


----------



## egrogan

Glad you got some saddle time @bsms, and hope it didn't leave you feeling too sore to get on again soon.


----------



## SueC

Something for you, @bsms. Oops! https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...mself-from-fighter-jet-during-surprise-flight


----------



## bsms

I'd have thought the ejection handles in a plane like that would have been disabled in the rear cockpit. Should have been set up so only the pilot could have caused an ejection. Someone also failed to give him proper training, but I suppose that would be normal since proper training might frighten off customers!

Don't know how the seat is designed in that aircraft. In an F-4, there were two ejection handles. One was above your heard and pulled forward. The other was between your legs and pulled up. Sounds like the guy was floating in his seat and grabbed the handle between his legs to pull himself back down....

I added red circles to the Internet picture below:








We had maintenance guys get "incentive flights". They had several hours of training. During a stint as a life support officer, I'd go out and make sure they were properly strapped in. However, on one incentive flight, while taxiing out, the guy pulled the handle! Happily, the canopy was still open and the seat interlock shut down the ejection before the seat could move. His rationale? "_I just wanted to see what would happen!_"

What happened was the incentive flight program was cancelled and the next few guys waiting for THEIR incentive flights paid the guy a visit and beat him up.

It is hard to over-estimate the stupidity of human beings!
---------------------------------------​PS: Just looked it up. The Dassault Rafale has a Martin-Baker ejection seat, as did the F-4, but a slightly different model. However, it is close enough:










> *The fighter pilot, being a fighter pilot, probably thought he was taking it easy as he pulled into a 47-degree climb and generated a 3.7-g load*. (Which, incidentally, was also beyond the doctor-ordered limit of 3 g's.) On the climb, both pilot and passenger were crushed down into the seat. But when the plane started to level off, things got real panicky in the rear seat, as a negative 0.67-g load caused the ill-buckled passenger to feel like he was about to fly out of the cockpit. Which, shortly thereafter, he did.
> 
> Apparently the quick and dirty safety briefing failed to properly emphasize the fact that the black-and-yellow striped loop in the middle of the seat, between his legs, was *not a grab handle but the trigger for the ejection seat*. The good doctor's g-load recommendations were surely exceeded as pyrotechnics blasted a hole in the canopy and rocket motors fired the seat and its terrified denizen out into the slipstream high above the French countryside.
> 
> https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a32131240/french-dassault-fighter-jet-joyride/


:rofl:​


----------



## bsms

FINALLY got another ride in on Bandit! Decided to try some romal reins. The Booma Rein thing works but I don't really like having it wrapped around the swells. I figure the romal reins would let Bandit eat while I kept the reins kind of in my hand.








Walk, trot and canter in the arena with ample stops so Bandit could eat. I took him away from his morning hay since the winds are supposed to be brutal this afternoon, and a horse who gives up hay ought to be spoiled some.

Glad I used the full sized "butt velcro" on my slick saddle. For some unknown reason, walking on level ground, Bandit tripped and went down on both knees. He wasn't hurt, but it startled both of us. With help from the butt velcro, however, I didn't even slide into the swells. He got up, looked a bit offended, turned and we cantered two laps because....well, ask him! I figured it meant he felt OK and he then settled nicely. Didn't even hurt my back, so I guess it is healing.

Not certain yet if I like the romal reins. They certainly are nice for letting him eat but they seem kind of long for everything else. As I got used to them I found they gave my free hand something to do: I could hold some of the excess in my right hand and feel good about it. 

But I had moved my hand to the horn in this next picture. My wife took the photo while wearing a large, loose, bright orange something-or-other that was flapping in the breeze, and Bandit doesn't believe carrots ought to flap. At all. I must have been feeling nervous, I guess, since he can squirt sideways with vigor at times...so two fingers on the horn. Guess I'll never be much of a rider :shrug::








Oh well. Stopped after just 25 minutes because my back was starting to get sore. At least we rode. Then spent 10 minutes hand grazing Bandit as a reward for leaving his hay. Felt good to be on him. He was behaving fine. But we BOTH needs some warm-up time in the arena before we start trying any solo trail rides! I felt *RUSTY!*


----------



## tinyliny

I've ridden a few of those 'horse drops suddenly to his knees' 



Twice I came off; one at a canter, which was a hard plough into the ground for me. Scared me so much I was afraid to canter for week. 

Another time the hrose was wearing boots and he stepped on his own front boot and went down, real slow like, and I just gently rolled onto the sand. It was as if he was 'laying me down' on purpose.


other times I've ended up on the horse's neck, and they are able to come back up AND carry me back up and back into the saddle. Usually, it's not my back that suffers from this , but my neck. Sort of a whiplash result.


Could Bandit's feet need trimming? and that be why he tripped?


----------



## bsms

Think I finally would need to use all the fingers of one hand to count all my 2020 rides!  Back is still a bit tender though and so we only did another 30 minutes. Still:








Went all slick today. Dropped the stirrups a hole since my rump would be lower without the sheepskin. Actually felt pretty good. I have to pay a little more attention to my form. If one leans a little too forward like this, it could be trouble. With nothing to provide friction to my rump or thighs, one also needs to count on the stirrups and lower leg for security. I first used sheepskin (IIRC) near the end of my time with Mia. Or maybe just after I got Bandit. But Bandit isn't the same horse he was in 2015 and I'm not the same rider, either.

At one point, I dropped the reins, leaning forward a little to keep a hand on them so he could munch some grass (no Booma Rein keeper or Romal reins today). Just as his nose was about to touch the ground, he startled over a neighbor's car and we squirted about 20 feet sideways. The operative word, though, is WE. WE squirted sideways. Then I got the slack out of the reins and turned him to see the car. Since WE squirted sideways, something was right. Beats the tar out of "Just HE" scooted sideways!

Felt nice at the canter. OK for trotting. Certainly not "glued in" but as long as WE move when HE moves.....

Don't know if I'll keep it up, but I'll think about it.



tinyliny said:


> I've ridden a few of those 'horse drops suddenly to his knees' ... Could Bandit's feet need trimming? and that be why he tripped?


Didn't think so when you posted this. He had his feet trimmed just the day before. But I paid more attention this time when I cleaned his feet. Then I got the nippers and trimmed about 4-6 weeks of hoof wall off. The farrier I use now is by far the best I've found here...but he left a lot of hoof wall and a lot of toe on Bandit this time!

Based on 5 years of living with Bandit - has it been that long? - yeah, he probably tripped because of too long a toe!

PS: The wind was picking up so the "trees" - 10' shrubs elsewhere in the world - starting shaking their leafy fists at Bandit. So we did some 'just walking' past them, which is sometimes tougher than trotting or cantering. Bandit was a good fellow today. Mostly listened. "Mostly" is pretty good by Bandit standards. Get us laughed out of a riding competition, but neither of us is interested in those.


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## bsms

An oldie sung by oldies, just for fun:


----------



## SueC

...a South African friend introduced me to that song over 20 years ago, this was the version she played me:






...that tribal singing style gives me goosebumps...


----------



## lb27312

@SueC - I like that version! I like the previous one as well... but I like the video on that one... Thanks for sharing.


----------



## bsms

Hmmm....


> "The Lion Sleeps Tonight" is a song originally written and recorded by Solomon Linda under the title "Mbube" for the South African Gallo Record Company in 1939. Linda's original was written in Zulu, while the English version's lyrics were written by George David Weiss. The song was adapted and covered internationally by many pop and folk revival artists in the 1950s and 1960s, including the Weavers, Jimmy Dorsey, Yma Sumac, Miriam Makeba, and the Kingston Trio. In 1961, it became a number one hit in the United States as adapted in English with the best-known version by the doo-*** group the Tokens.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lion_Sleeps_Tonight





> Joseph Shabalala formed Ladysmith Black Mambazo because of a series of dreams he had in 1964, in which he heard certain isicathamiya harmonies (isicathamiya being the traditional music of the Zulu people). Following their local success at wedding ceremonies and other gatherings, Shabalala entered them into isicathamiya competitions. The group was described as 'so good' that they were eventually forbidden to enter the competitions, but welcomed to entertain at them. Although they had been recognized as an isicathamiya group in 1964, they had been singing together since the early 1950s. They released their first album, Amabutho, in 1973.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladysmith_Black_Mambazo


Two different performances of an 80+ year old song! For beauty, I'd choose number 2...but the Token's performance had a good "we're having fun" vibe to it. Now for the full story:


> In 1961, the Tokens, a group from Brighton Beach, Brooklyn, turned up to audition for Hugo and Luigi at RCA and sang "Wimoweh", a beloved staple of the Weavers, the Kingston Trio and other luminaries of the folk boom. And it was fine, but Hugo and Luigi were in the market for something a little less folkie and turned to their pal George Weiss to see if he'd be interested in turning it into a more or less regular pop song. Weiss didn't much care for the guys a-hootin' an' a-hollerin' "A-wimoweh a-wimoweh" bar after bar like a bunch of buttondown Brooklynite tribesmen, but an eight-bar instrumental phrase at the end of all the zeudo-Zulu chanting tickled his fancy. So he moved it up and made it the melodic center of the song and then figured out what the lyric ought to be about. The Tokens had mentioned to Huge and Luge (as they called their pop biz honchos in those pre-Trump non-Yuge days) that the South African consulate had told them the the song was something to do with a lion. Okay, thought Weiss. So it's a song about a lion. What's the lion doing? Not much:
> 
> In the jungle, the mighty jungle
> The Lion Sleeps Tonight...
> ----------------------------
> 
> Sixty-two words, or (excluding repetitions) 16 words. I can't improve on the brilliant analysis by Ilonka David-Biluska, who was briefly a Continental vedette in the Sixties and billed as "The Voice of South Africa", despite her Hungarian name. Invited by EMI in Amsterdam to sing the Dutch version of the song, Ilonka wasn't impressed:
> 
> I looked at the lyrics and my heart sank. Apart from a prodigious number of 'Wimowehs', there were only three lines. I shall paraphrase: a lion is sleeping in a mighty but quiet jungle, near a peaceful and quiet village and a darling, presumably somewhere in a hut in the village, is told to hush and not to fear because the lion is asleep tonight. The Dutch translation, according to the sheet music (which was later published with my photograph on the cover) left out the fearful darling and noted merely that the jungle was big, the village small and the night dark. Oh yes, the lion was still asleep.
> 
> I refused to sing it.
> 
> Back in New York, the Tokens did as they were told but didn't care for it. "We were embarrassed," said Phil Margo, "and tried to convince Hugo and Luigi not to release it......
> -----------------
> The trouble was, whether you call it "Wimoweh" or "The Lion Sleeps Tonight", the tune that sits under those words wasn't a traditional Zulu work chant. It was the melodic inspiration of one man - a man who, unlike "Paul Campbell" and "Albert Stanton", actually existed. And we can date the point of creation very precisely, to the third take on a recording session at Eric Gallo's studio in Johannesburg eighty years ago. As the South African writer Rian Malan described it:
> 
> Once upon a time, a long time ago, a small miracle took place in the brain of a man named Solomon Linda. It was 1939, and he was standing in front of a microphone in the only recording studio in black Africa when it happened. He hadn't composed the melody or written it down or anything. He just opened his mouth and out it came, a haunting skein of fifteen notes that flowed down the wires and into a trembling stylus that cut tiny grooves into a spinning block of bees wax, which was taken to England and turned into a record that became a very big hit in that part of Africa.
> 
> Indeed. They had to ship a lot of 78s from London to Jo'burg: it was the first African record to sell over 100,000 copies. "Mbube", as they called it, means "the lion", and Solomon Linda had been inspired by a childhood memory from his days herding cattle in the Zulu heartland. "The lion was going round and round, and the lion was happy," said his daughter Elisabeth. "But my father was not happy. He had been staying there since morning and he was hungry."...
> ----
> In South Africa, it was huge. "Mbube" became not just the name of a hit record but of an entire vocal style - a high-voiced lead over four-part bass-heavy harmony. That, in turn, evolved into "isicathamiya", a smoother vocal style that descended to Ladysmith Black Mambazo and others, taking its cue from the injunction "Cothoza, bafana" - or "tread carefully, boys". That's to say, Zulu stomping is fine in the bush, but when you're singing in dancehalls and restaurants in you've got to be a little more choreographically restrained, if only for the sake of the floorboards.
> 
> "Tread carefully, boys" is good advice for anyone in the music business. A few years after Solomon Linda and the Evening Birds made their hit record, it came to the notice of Pete Seeger, on the prowl for yet more "authentic" "traditional" "vernacular" "folk music" for the Weavers to make a killing with. He misheard "Mbube" and transcribed it as "Wimoweh". That's a great insight into the "authenticity" of the folk boom: the most famous Zulu word on the planet was invented by a New York socialist in 1951...
> 
> ...[Solomon Linda] and his family must be multi-multi-millionaires, right? Not exactly. Linda sold it to the Gallo record company for ten shillings: that would be about 87 cents. Tread carefully, boy. In 1962, just as "The Lion Sleeps Tonight" was reaching Number One around the world, he died of kidney disease in Soweto, on the edge of Johannesburg, in a concrete hovel with a couple of bedrooms with dirt floors covered in cow dung. He left his widow the equivalent of $22 in the bank and unable even to afford a headstone for his grave...
> ----
> 
> *In the courtroom, the quiet courtroom, the lawsuit slept for decades*, until Solomon Linda's daughters were apprised of this significant feature of Commonwealth copyright law, and took action. The sleeping lion also took on the Mouse - the Walt Disney corporation, whose film The Lion King had introduced the song to a new generation of children. In America, Linda's family really had no legal leg to stand on, but, faced with potentially catastrophic complications in Britain, South Africa, Australia, India and other key markets, Disney were only too keen to settle. In 2006, Solomon Linda finally received his due....
> 
> https://www.steynonline.com/9379/the-lion-sleeps-tonight


FWIW, I don't know of anyone as entertaining with the back story of songs as Mark Steyn. If you are in coronavirus shutdown and want to hear about artists, the music business, history and the odd way great songs become great, I strongly recommend a few hours of reading here:

https://www.steynonline.com/section/18/steyns-song-of-the-week


----------



## bsms

And the beat goes on:


> But once again, it seems as if the Linda family won’t be benefiting from the song. The family’s settlement arrangement with Disney ended on the last day of December 2017, a year and a half before the new movie opened, which means, as it stands now, that Linda’s heirs don’t stand to profit from the inclusion of the song in The Lion King. Nothing in the situation is unlawful: The contract between Disney and the Linda family was finalized, and the family has no legal right to continue receiving royalties. (Disney declined to comment on the record for this story.)
> 
> And when the paperwork for that deal was worked out over a decade ago, no one imagined that The Lion King would be remade with computer-generated animals. “Nobody knew in advance into the future,” sighs Hanro Friedrich, a South African lawyer who worked with the family at the time. “I’ve got more than a bit of melancholy in my head now.”
> 
> https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/lion-sleeps-tonight-lion-king-update-879663/


----------



## bsms

A little coronavirus humor, and I need some right now:


----------



## SueC

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


----------



## bsms

A "proof of concept" modification to my Abetta saddle, involving part of an old belt and a shoestring:








I've suspected for some time that the nylon stirrup strap was snagging on the D-ring, preventing the stirrups - at odd moments - from sliding forward with my foot. I've now ridden with this twice and it helps! Seems my natural foot position puts the leading edge of the nylon strip 1/2" past the rear of the D-ring. But it often catches on the D-ring and prevents my legs from hanging naturally.

The leather lets it slide up and over. This allows the weight of my leg to place the stirrup where it feels good. In turn, I find it helps to relax my hips and entire leg. I need to shorten the leather and tie it off better to the rear, but it subjectively makes it 10-15% easier to relax and move in the saddle. The resulting leg position, including using the "Grandpa Bear" hole setting, is this:








The boots, BTW, are my 1990 Red Wing cowboy boots, 30 years old and still usable.


----------



## bsms

Rode in the modified Abetta today but with the stirrups shortened to the Poppa Bear setting. Although it FEELS different and RIDES different, I can't say it LOOKS different! Below is the Grandpa versus Poppa leg positions. And thinking about it, a 1" difference with a 30+ inch inseam is only 3%. But 3% can perform differently!








At the shorter setting, I can trot or canter in a half-seat. Or more accurately, a "three-quarter" seat. But I can get my rump a little bit higher off the saddle when I want. But with the leather cover strap, the stirrups will swing wherever I want, and the shorter setting stays relaxed and easy. Unless I want to get some clearance. But I can also relax. I'm not fighting to get the stirrup there. And that release of tension really improves the ride!

I need to fine tune the leather cover, but it is on the saddle to STAY!

BTW - Bandit got lots of grazing time. We did our fair share of cantering and trotting too. But it felt comfortable just to sit and relax on him. Bandit, like Mia before him, has a big ego. I told him I was just out 'riding' for the pleasure of spending time with him. And like Mia, that made perfect sense to him. After all, who WOULDN'T want some time on the World's Most Perfect Horse? :Angel:

Tried the romal reins again today. They were still feeling awkward when I took the picture. Just too much extra rein! What to do with it? Then I tried threading it under my right leg with enough slack for Bandit to eat. And that worked well! Felt fine for riding but no excess slop. I might remove the "popper" on it. I'm not sure I'd want to ride Bandit after "popping" him, and I don't need the extra length. But tucked under my thigh, it didn't do any harm either.


----------



## tinyliny

I've ridden in saddles where the stirrup strap snagged on teh D ring. Very annoying. Good solution.


----------



## bsms

Some scary old photos. These come from "Monte Foreman's Horse-Training Science" (1983). He is said to have taught over 75,000 students at clinics. To start with, here a a couple of pictures of how he said good riders were riding badly in the 40s-70s - because they didn't know better:

















I have no idea where that sort of riding was done. Old reining competitions maybe? I've certainly seen a thousand pictures of ranch riders from the 1880s on and haven't come across anyone looking like those. He wrote his book and taught clinics to get people to stop riding like that (after trying it himself) - but who in the heck EVER rode that way? 

This is an example of him riding "right" - AFTER he figured out a better way to ride!








I guess it incorporates his ideas on how to bit a horse. Really? Here is what he wrote about bitting:

"Three basic accessories are used to improve the function of bits. The _running martingale_ prevents the horse's mouth from being stretched. The mouthpiece pulls on the bars instead of the horse's lips. It is essential with a nonleverage (snaffle) bit, but it is also efficient in use with a _combination bit_. The _drop noseband_ helps prevent the horse from learning to open his mouth to escape the pressure of the bit. The _tie down_ is used with gag bridles and leverage hackamores to prevent the horse from evading the bit by raising his head excessively."

No mention of just getting out of the horse's face!

This is his reason to sell his own style of curb bits, because bad curb bits cause a horse to respond like this - not bad hands, but bad bits:








Now I'm NOT writing from the point of good hind sight. One could watch any of a thousand old westerns - from Roy Rogers to John Wayne to Ronald Reagan to Jimmy Stewart. Or old TV series. The guys who played The Virginian and Trampas on TV had both worked on ranches in the early 50s and they rode fine. 

For comparison, here is a guy in Texas cutting cattle in 1910:


----------



## bsms

I don't know if this is 100% accurate. It is supposed to be a picture of coronavirus deaths per 1,000 population using county statistics.








Phoenix and Tucson problems are largely in nursing homes. In the NE, the Navajo are taking a severe beating.


> Roads closed into New Mexico city to mitigate 'uninhibited spread of Covid-19'
> 
> "The governor of New Mexico declared a state of emergency Friday for the city of Gallup to "mitigate the uninhibited spread of Covid-19."
> 
> The city is under emergency restrictions to control the outbreak, according to a statement from New Mexico Gov. Michelle Lujan Grisham.
> 
> All roads into the city have been closed, businesses must close between 5 p.m. and 8 a.m. and vehicles can only carry two individuals, according to the governor's order. The governor is recommending that residents remain at home except for emergency outings and those essential for health and safety.
> 
> Lujan Grisham invoked the state's Riot Control Act to authorize these temporary restrictions....
> 
> Gallup is in McKinley County, which has 1,027 positive cases of Covid-19 as of Thursday. The county has more than 30% of the state's 3,411 cases and the most positive cases in the entire state, the governor's statement said.
> 
> https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/01/us/new-mexico-town-lockdown-coronavirus-trnd/index.html





> Window Rock, Ariz. - Residents on the Navajo Nation will be under another lockdown this weekend as the tribe seeks to keep the coronavirus from spreading even further into communities.
> 
> The lockdown is the fourth the tribe has implemented. It comes around the first of the month when tribal members often travel to towns bordering the reservation to shop for food and other supplies.
> 
> https://www.sltrib.com/news/2020/04/29/navajo-nation-continues/


Weekends see a lot of traffic from the reservations into Gallup. And then back.

On the riding side: Went back to the lowest stirrup setting today. At one point, Bandit freaked over a leaf blower firing up - a very big one based on the amount of dirt that went flying - and Bandit felt the need to go flying too! I'm a very laid-back rider but I felt he was taking advantage of me, so we had a very heated discussion about manners, followed by doing figure 8s as close to the leaf blower as we could get and some remedial "_Stop means STOP!_" lessons.

In all honesty, nothing improves my riding so much as a need to get busy about something. I think I ride pretty good when I'm BUSY. Bandit took the rebuke well and we finished in a friendly manner. It amazes me how much better I feel on a horse when I'm too busy to think! Stirrup settings? What are those? Doesn't seem to matter once there is stuff to do!


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## bsms

The Daily Mail has a surprisingly good article on the Gallup situation:

Roads into Gallup are shut and governor uses riot act to keep its 22,000 residents inside in the remote community with a third of the state's cases


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## bsms

Short ride on Bandit. Took him out into the desert solo for 20 minutes of riding. He did fine. The last attempt, when we turned toward home, the wind was blowing in his ears and he got very upset. No wind today. He acted more tense heading toward home but I asked him to take it easy and just walk...and he did. We did a few trots and canters when we got home to the little arena, but he pretty much acted sane and willing the whole day.

Since I've only ridden 10 times (or less) in 2020, sane was very good.


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## bsms

The wife took allergy medicine last night and was sound asleep. I wanted to get a ride in before it got hot, so saddled Bandit up and headed for the desert. When we reached the end of the paved road, mounted up.

Bandit did great today. We went further than before, dropped into the wash, and cantered a short stretch of nice sand. Then we walked on...for a little ways. At a narrow spot, someone had dumped a piece of machinery years ago. Bandit has seen it hundreds of times, but certainly not since last fall. He wanted to spin, and just before he broke I ASKED him to turn. We went back 20 feet and turned back. We did 7-8 of those, each time getting one step closer. Then I got tired and just dismounted, led him 20 feet past, and remounted.

It was one of those places where, if something went wrong, no one would see me unless they actually walked up the wash. And my wife didn't even know I was out on Bandit. There are limits to how hard I press things in those spots.

However, we climbed out of the wash some distance on and nearly equaled how far we went on our best effort last fall. Apart from that one spot, Bandit handled everything well. A little nervous in one area when heading home but he accepted a walk with just a little tension on the reins.

I was using the "Grandpa Bear" setting for my stirrups. At that length, to put any pressure in them, I have to straighten my leg in a way that pushes the lower leg away from my horse's side....kind of like this:








If my lower leg is against his skin, it HAS to be just hanging. And I was wondering - did Bandit interpret the lack of lower leg as "_My rider is relaxed so I can be too_"? There has been a discussion on another thread about western riders having weak seats and weak legs. I've met several western trained horses who just dislike lower leg pressure.

Littauer taught security was in the lower leg, and the Cavalry taught you kept heels down so the calf muscle would be drawn taunt and give a firm base of support. But maybe with western riding, less lower leg contact is normal? And maybe Bandit feels a firmer lower leg indicates tension - which it may be with me since I was taught the lower leg was the source of security.

Could it be Bandit was more relaxed because he perceived ME as more relaxed?

Another quick note: Bandit cantering along a wash is NOTHING like Bandit cantering in an arena. Could what some people view as a horse "running away with them" just be the difference in feel between a horse cantering comfortably in a straight area, versus cantering in endless circles? Bandit was NOT running away with anything, but the power is night & day different from his cantering in an arena.


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## egrogan

The lower leg observation is interesting. On my last ride with my friend M, she mentioned how her horse Coalie gets more nervous her she takes her leg away during a tense moment, and I commented that Fizz is the same. It’s sort of like these horses interpret your leg going away as abandoning them, which makes them more upset at whatever was concerning them. It’s a good check for me because getting tense and SQUEEZING with leg isn’t helpful, but keeping it there reassuringly is. 

Glad you got a nice ride in!


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## carshon

I think the observation that those that ride in western saddles have weak seats may be more focused at those that ride western just for pleasure. The barn my husband rides at is a show barn. Western Pleasure as well as Hunt Seat etc. Those western pleasure horses are more "spur" broke that leg broke but they also ride off of the seat and leg as it is important to look almost motionless in the saddle when riding W/P . The nature of an English saddle makes leg pressure almost a given. There are no fenders, the riders leg is usually more bent and depending on the saddle the knee rolls help push the leg in.

If you watch any of the in vogue trainers you will see a lot of tall men riding in what I had always been taught was a "chair seat" with their legs drawn up. This is so that their legs can touch the side of the horse to give cues.

My mare interprets too much leg to me go - and the more leg you give the more she will GO! I ride in a Tucker saddle with English Leathers and endurance stirrups- I try to ride with my leg resting against her side at all times and initiate cues by moving my feet and heels. I never kick my horse. My husband rides in a western saddle - but since he has trained at the show barn too much leg makes his horse think turn on the forehand or turn on the haunches - so he too tries to ride with a quiet leg or his horse tries a variation of all of those maneuvers to see which one he was really asking for! LOL!


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## bsms

The wife got her first ride of 2020 in today. I was expecting to go out solo but she offered to join us, so Trooper was ridden for the first time in ages.

On the road heading out:








Mid-trail. This is where Bandit & I cantered yesterday, but we walked today so Trooper wouldn't get excited:








Post-ride. Notice Trooper isn't tied. He's an older horse who has always been pretty reliable!








Bandit was an absolute champ today. Maybe going out solo is helping him find confidence in me. Or himself, more likely - he isn't big on thinking he needs help. We went much the same route as yesterday. The spot Bandit thought scary yesterday? He moved about 6 inches to the side and walked past. He was far more interested in eating than spooking, which was fine with me. I even rode him, in his hoof boots, no helmet, on the pavement back to our house. Trashcans on garbage day? He turned and gave one the Evil Eye - but he did so from 12 inches away so he obviously wasn't scared.

I think he would have liked stretching his legs, but that would have been a very bad idea with the wife behind us. Still, I'm not sure how he could have done any better than he did today. 

Trooper also performed fine. He didn't put a foot wrong. That is very helpful when one's wife rides 6 times a year. The wife agreed we should get Trooper hoof boots for the desert. Maybe she'll ride a little more. She & Trooper do well together and I really think Trooper enjoys heading out.


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## tinyliny

Glad you two had a good ride. There's such a sense of satisfaction after a good ride, with a good friend. Not much is better than that.


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## bsms

Not about horses, but about eating habits and food supply:

"_While in the mid-1980s, Americans still spent the majority of their food budget at retail grocery stores, that number has steadily declined, and in 2010, eating-out spending surpassed at-home for the first time. At the opening of 2020, Rieley estimates, only “40 percent of what farmers produced may have gone into retail.”_

_“Prior to [coronavirus], the majority of Americans would eat at least half of their meals away from home. A lot of people eating lunch and dinner away from home, or breakfast and lunch, and then you go out to dinner on the weekends, so all that production was geared toward food service, which is generally speaking a different size of animal, a different size of chicken.”...

...Just a few months ago, when more than one-third of us were eating at least one fast food meal a day, Americans wanted tens of millions of chicken nuggets, which are typically made with smaller, three-pound birds, breaded and packaged in large bags for commercial kitchens. When instead we’re buying retail chicken at the store, we prefer retail packages of larger, five-pound birds, either whole or cut into breasts, legs, or thighs. This is just one example...._"

https://thefederalist.com/2020/05/14/how-and-why-americas-food-system-is-cracking/

"_During 2013–2016, 36.6% of adults consumed fast food on a given day.
The percentage of adults who consumed fast food decreased with age: 44.9% aged 20–39, 37.7% aged 40–59, and 24.1% aged 60 and over_."

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db322.htm

My wife & I sometimes watch shows about tiny homes. We're always shocked at people acting as if having a refrigerator the size of a shoe box and no freezer is something a sane person would consider. But then, neither of us have ever eaten many meals out. And having spent last week on the road, eating fast food take-out for every meal....yech!

The article's point is that our food industry is geared to a particular end game. Change the end game and machinery of the food industry has a mismatch:

"_So you’ve got a lot of products that are for food service but there’s no demand to speak of, or the demand is a fraction of what it was. On the other hand, the demand for meals eaten at home has skyrocketed, so it’s creating this imbalance of the supply chain._”

It explains a lot, including our many health problems! Now add in how government protects the major food giants from competition, making it tough or impossible for a local producer to sell directly to people who want what they would sell, if they could do so legally, and the system doesn't have the flexibility to respond.

It is a reminder of how deeply artificial our world has become. Or at least our society. And a reminder of how out of touch I am with how most people in America live! How can we be grounded in reality when we spend so much of our lives bathed in artificiality?

Is it any wonder a lot of horses assume people are weird?


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## egrogan

Like you said, I think what's really unfortunate about the pandemic response is that all the government stimulus is doing no favors to the the local, small farmer driven supply chain that feeds into (pun intended :wink locally owned independent restaurants. That seems to be ignored by a lot of the articles growing increasingly hysterical about disruptions to mega-processing plants in the midwest. I couldn't tell you the last time I ate at a chain restaurant, but pre-pandemic I would eat probably two dinners a week at a locally owned independent restaurant, that sourced most of their ingredients locally. Seeing a Sysco truck in the back of a restaurant would tell me it's not a place I wanted to go. We eat very little meat, but what we do eat is bought through a local butcher, not a mega grocery store, and it comes from farmers nearby. We've seen no interruption in our ability to buy milk or the little meat we get each week. 

Unfortunately our favorite taverns/restaurants are still mostly closed, as the PPP program doesn't work for them since they still don't know when they will be able to reopen their restaurants, so can't say with certainty they can retain their staff. A couple of them are offering very limited takeout Fridays through Mondays, so we've been picking up coffee, pastries, beer, and the odd prepared food treat from them to support. There are some shocking statistics circulating that something like 30% of locally owned, independent restaurants in Vermont won't reopen, and that the rate nationally will be closer to 40%. But the mega chain restaurants seem to be unconcerned because they are getting plenty of federal support. I love cooking, and with rare exceptions have enjoyed cooking our old favorites interspersed with some interesting new recipes that will be part of our post-pandemic rotation, but I deeply miss going to our local spots. There's some joy in being a "regular" at a place with an inviting bar and consistently good simple food for dinner. I really, really hope we don't lose our favorite spots, but the reality is most of them can only stay afloat with the regular influx of season tourism, and who knows what that's going to look like for the next 1-2 years.

And I am in total agreement with you about being really out of touch with how most of this country lives. It does feel like an alternative universe where I am.


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## gottatrot

I can't believe those statistics - I had no idea people ate out so much.
The thing is, I'm no cook compared to my mom or sister, and yet we rarely eat out. It seems to me that if I can manage with no natural ability or inclination to cook, most people could too.
For one thing, salad requires no ability at all. Just cut things up.
Same with fruits, melons and berries. We have so much produce available. 

Beyond that, there are so many meals a person can make that are easy and yet far more healthy than anything you can order from a restaurant. I don't fry anything in butter or grease, and don't add salt. So right there you add a lot of health.
We eat a lot of Italian and Mexican, and canned tomato sauces are so easy to add meat and spice to, a few mushrooms and then all you need are noodles. Even lasagna is not rocket science. 

Where we live fish is everywhere and is also one of the easiest things to make. Baked salmon is practically fool proof. So is rice.

Sounds like you had some great rides!


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## whisperbaby22

I'm another one that has rarely eaten food I do not prepare myself. I am not a cook, but I can make healthy stuff to eat. For me, I was always kind of creeped out by the thought of other people handling my food. 

We also have a huge restaurant scene here in the city, both small owner operated and large chain. I fear a big upheaval in this industry because we are so dependent on hospitality and entertainment here in So Cal. We are going to have a big snowball fallout here - logistics is huge here and yet we are still having empty shelves. And it's weird, one week peanut butter will be gone, the next week frozen fruit. I am still waiting for my favorite baked beans in a can that I eat from time to time.


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## SueC

I can smell an interesting discussion from this hemisphere and will come back to this when awake - zzzzzz time here... but meanwhile:

@bsms, you actually look a teeny bit like one of my favourite comedians, and I thought you might enjoy his little TED talk (from @Knave's neighbourhood too!):


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## bsms

Rode out solo with Bandit today. The wife and I got a brief ride in yesterday but had to cut it short due to a phone call and some family issues. The wife had fun but we needed to return and she had other chores to deal with this morning. I figured if Bandit and I got in even 10 minutes, it would be better than nothing.

Turned out we went further during our 45 minutes than we had with Trooper & The Wife a few days ago. We just don't dawdle as much as Trooper likes. Bandit was mostly fine. There were two walkers we spotted - very suspicious! And worse was when we were about to turn around. There was a paved road a hundred yards away, but invisible due to the desert plants. Then...a jogger! A human. Running! Why? Was she searching for someone to attack? Or worse - was something chasing her? :think:

And while I spotted her first and pointed her out to Bandit, why didn't I brief him on all his options? Hmmmm? So I took Bandit off trail and gave him something to think about - where to put his feet - and turned him a couple times so he could see her disappearing and nothing following. Sigh! You just can't be too cautious if you plan to live forever....

Apart from that, Bandit was doing really well. Tensed up a few times but never balked And every time we return without having been attacked, Bandit becomes a little more confident!


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## egrogan

Hi @bsms! I thought of you this morning when listening to this podcast:
https://www.horsesinthemorning.com/...ork-after-a-break-for-may-19-2020-by-the-cha/
It includes a 15 minute or so segment with Bob Byrns, who runs the Parsons Mounted Cavalry program at Texas A&M. He shared some interesting details about how they train their cadets- nearly none of whom who come in with horse experience- to ride, using the old army training manuals. He talked about some other horse management and training topics during the segment, which may or may not be as interesting, but figured I'd share it with you. He joins around minute 36, and I think the discussion about the cadet training starts around minute 43 or 44.


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## SueC

I'm caught up reading this and was really interested in the eating habits and consequences discussion! I wish I could make some kind of useful contribution but I am currently a bit rubbery of body and brain from hiking all day in the sun. So I'll just thank all the people who posted comments on that. One thing that fits into this discussion is a programme I heard on the radio on the rapid loss of genetic diversity amongst farm animals. Not just that instead of dozens of beef breeds only 30 years ago, all of Australia is now mostly breeding not just Angus cattle for beef (Brahmans up north), but only certain strains of Angus cattle. So not only are we losing domestic breeds by attrition, but the ones who have come to dominate now have their smallest gene pools ever, despite being the most numerous they've ever been. It's the same with dairy breeds - not only have so many dairy breeds largely disappeared in the last 30 years (and some are extinct and more heading that way), but the now 95%+ dominant Holstein-Friesian cattle have the smallest genetic variation ever, thanks to international AI etc. Ditto with pigs, chickens, sheep etc etc - we're rapidly losing breeds that were adapted to local conditions. Same with fruit and vegetables - heritage varieties are being lost.

Genetic diversity is really important in nature, and yet humans are in the last few decades going for uniformity and sameness in everything - "a consistent product" - apples where each has to look the same, cows that all have to look the same etc - that's the problem with viewing organisms as products, and "factory farming" etc etc. The same system also views humans as "consumers" first and foremost. So when your world is reduced to products and consumers, it becomes rather sad, not to mention unstable and unsustainable...


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## bsms

Great pictures here. Guess tigers aren't entirely different than humans...

Mother tigress becomes embroiled in a fierce duel with her DAUGHTER

















Back to horses....

I've been riding with stirrups at the Grandpa Bear setting for the last month. That would be the 5th set of holes down, versus Papa Bear (4th), Momma Bear (3rd set of holes) and Baby Bear (2nd set of holes). It has done some good things. It makes it easy to get "on my pockets". That is NOT leaning back, just a loosening of the hips to allow the pelvis to tuck under a little. If the horse suddenly stops, this allows a person's torso to come slightly forward without putting them ahead of their horse. The looseness is a good thing for responding to many types of spook behavior, although I don't know if it would have worked when Mia was at her worst. This has made me feel more confident when taking Bandit out solo.

However, a ride a few days ago was an hour long. We covered some good ground and I worked on getting my lower back to flex WITH him. After the ride, my back was exhausted. I've had a few back injuries over the years and my lower back just doesn't like to flex.

My DIL has a spine like cooked linguini. Riding on her pockets is no effort to her. My wife doesn't have much problem. But a lot of guys do, and certainly I find it challenging.

Also, I noticed on that ride an issue: When I trot Bandit, my legs are virtually straight to get off his back. But that doesn't HELP Bandit. Because it isn't getting OFF his back that helps, but using the flex in my knees to reduce peak impact pressures. If my legs have to stay straight, there is no shock absorbing going on. I tried it the next day in the arena and watched closely and believe I confirmed it.

Another issue comes when we try to climb out of a wash. The climbs are not long - 10-15 feet total height - but steep. And with the Grandpa setting I just can't get far enough off his back to let him USE his back as vigorously as he needs. 

On the one hand, I think I've grown more as a rider in the last month of riding than in the previous year. I've always had a problem with bracing against the stirrups when nervous - thanks, Mia! - and it worked. But keeping my legs loose and rolling a little back on my pockets also seems to work while keeping Bandit calmer.

I did a couple of rides in the arena this weekend with the stirrups raised one set of holes - 1.5" apart on an Abetta - the Poppa Bear setting. That keeps me close to his back, but also allows my legs to bend and flex and spread out the shock over a longer period of time, reducing peak impact pressures. And Bandit responded with bigger trots. I also tried it at the canter. Essentially a deep half-seat canter. And Bandit moved a LITTLE better that way. I think. Not a huge difference at a canter. But quite noticeable at the trot.

So rode solo today with Bandit using the Poppa Bear setting and liked the results. With a little conscious effort, I could relax my leg when nervous, rolling slightly onto my pockets and it seemed to work well for Bandit and I. Cantering in a half-seat (3/4 seat?) worked very well, and his trotting was more energetic. It also helped me get further out and forward when we climbed out of the wash. And that helped Bandit!

So I think the Poppa Bear setting is a very good one, although I want to periodically drop them a hole at times. The Grandpa Bear setting is as close as I can get to "no stirrups" while feeling safe on the trail and it will help me practice staying looser in the saddle. Maybe when my wife rides with me, since those rides involve a lot of strolling and not much else.

But for solo rides, or anytime I want Bandit to move more athletically, the way to go is the extra 1.5" shorter (translating into an actual rise in the stirrups of 0.75 inches since stirrup straps fold over). Bandit is getting really good about going out alone. He did GREAT today. He's alert but is learning to listen to me.

Happily, mesquite beans will soon be in season. Bandit LOVES mesquite beans. For 6 weeks or so, we'll be able to go out alone and he'll get a continual reward of eating one of his favorite foods as we go! Nothing like a built in positive reinforcement. I'll work on keeping my legs loose except for when I can use them to help Bandit. I'll sometimes drop them to allow me some near no-stirrup rides in the desert. But Bandit and I are both starting to feel comfortable with each other - alone together - and that is a great thing!

:happydance:​


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## bsms

*Best ride ever on Bandit!​*
Went out solo together this morning. Temps were rising fast so I planned on keeping it short. 85-90 degrees but with very bright sunshine. Bandit was so relaxed as we started down the dirt road that I had to start asking him to trot. He would have been content to take 30 minutes to stroll down 1/4 mile of dirt road, looking for dried grass and weeds to munch on.

Not long after turning into the wash, I asked him to canter. He gave a good effort. We passed a spot with big rocks and then cantered again. Passed another spot and cantered again. In short order, we went further along than we had been solo. Instead of taking him out of the wash, we turned and retraced our steps. We did another canter, slowed for terrain, and then did one more on the original stretch.

Except this time, Bandit decided to take control. He accelerated, and when I asked him to slow he refused. Asked again and he did a few bucks at a canter - not very good bucks because we were still cantering. But the palm of my free hand was resting against the rear of the horn, so I pressed harder with it to keep my shoulders back and kept bumping on the reins. Bandit relented and we slowed to a fast stop.

Hmmm. Didn't want to end it like that, so turned him around and we cantered back up. And we repeated his trying to take over. Same thing. Stopped him, turned him, and we cantered back. And forth. I think we cantered that stretch 8 times, with him tossing in some crow hops on the first 3, then still signaling he wanted to take over on a couple more, and then the last ones with him slowing when told, "Easy". After all, we hadn't cantered that much since I've owned him, and it was deep sand and getting to be work!

When we exited the wash, he gave a big snort and settled down. He offered a trot a couple of times heading home. I accepted those offers and said, "Cool! I need to practice my sitting trots!" And then he'd slow and, like the lady I met on 1 January, I'd say, "You are SOOOO smart! Very efficient!" But he didn't show any signs of losing his mind or self-control. He didn't lose his mind cantering, either...just was getting excited and ready to haul butt further. But the washes vary in quality. There are places great for a canter, then 100 yard later rocks that make the footing questionable. And while BANDIT might feel ready to tackle them, I'm 60+ and no one knows exactly where I am. We can canter a LOT, solo, if he cooperates. Which we'll work on some more!

But this was our best ride ever. The best I've had on a horse. We hauled butt at times, slowed when appropriate....well, sometimes just a little later than I thought appropriate. But Bandit's confidence is way up. Since the desert doesn't feel threatening to him, we can concentrate on just doing what makes sense to us. My confidence is up too. It is a circular thing. I feel more confident because he acts calmer and saner, and then he feels more confident and becomes calmer and saner, and then I feel more confident - and so on.

But it was WONDERFUL to be flying along a desert wash, solo with Bandit, and both of us enjoying it!

Bandit while we we still strolling out. Didn't feel comfortable reaching into my pocket for a camera while cantering....








Abetta saddle post-ride. The stirrup fenders normally cover the cinch, but it is a pretty good $400, 17 pounds of weight saddle:


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## egrogan

Love this update, from the title all the way through. And THIS I can 100% relate to


> My confidence is up too. It is a circular thing. I feel more confident because he acts calmer and saner, and then he feels more confident and becomes calmer and saner, and then I feel more confident - and so on.


That's been the story of my past few weeks as well.


Our temperatures here today are the same as yours. That's so strange. Unlike you, there was no way I was going riding. I'm sitting under the shade of a tree in the backyard right now with my poor little puppy about to pass out at my feet. This is literally the hottest day he's experienced in his short life so far.


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## carshon

Great update! I can feel your excitement from your post and absolutely believe that your best ride is going to be the next ride and then the next ride. Congratulations to you and Bandit


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## gottatrot

egrogan said:


> Love this update, from the title all the way through. And THIS I can 100% relate to...
> 
> ...That's been the story of my past few weeks as well.


That ride sounded like great fun!

I think with many horses, people need to get through this phase where they can finally trust what the horse is doing so their confidence brings up the horse's confidence, etc.

It sounds easier than it is, I think. Because you can't fully trust a horse if you don't know what their reactions are going to be. For example, I couldn't trust that when Hero reared and spooked that he wasn't going to lose his mind and go up and over, or get into a panic state. 

Yes you can be calm, but that is not the same as sitting on your horse unconcerned because you trust their reaction is going to stay manageable. You literally have to be prepared for the worst until you know things almost certainly won't go there. That's not being nervous, that's being realistic about safety. 

Still, once you get to that trust and partnership level, things can progress so much better, and trust between the two of you leads to better and better things. I remember the epiphany when I got there with Amore and Halla, and now I am finally getting there with Hero also. It's wonderful. Growth from this point on becomes accelerated.


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## SueC

I'm glad you had a great ride! :charge!


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## SueC

:charge:

(Sorry, this was supposed to be the emoji...)


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## bsms

Good ride today but much slower. Supposed to go well over 100 degrees today so got up early and went out. Worked on riding in a 3/4 seat the entire day - which is work for my legs & back but seems to help Bandit. When we got to the place we had cantered back & forth the previous ride, he went on alert - so I told him WALKING was fine. A little later I asked him to trot or canter along a stretch of wash. He chose a high stepping trot and I didn't ask him to accelerate any further.

We pushed further down the wash, to where it gets narrow and you can start hearing the cars doing 50+ mph on the road hidden from view but only a hundred yards ahead. Bandit stayed steady and we turned out of the wash to cross an area we hadn't gone to since last summer. It isn't my favorite area to ride - too much cactus and rock - but we picked our way through. Bandit almost stepped on a barrel cactus (Internet picture, about as close to how one looks out there as I could find):








I spotted it just in time and pulled hard on the reins, and he put his foot down about 6" away. They blend in well with their background. We eventually found a faint path taking us to an ATV trail that took us back to the wash we had cantered last ride. I asked him for a short canter, he gave it, and when I said "Easy" twice and gave one bump of the reins, he transitioned to a walk.

Trotted a few times at his initiative on the way home but never for long. There was a bit more wind and we spent much of the ride in places we hadn't ever been alone. So my emphasis today was "_We're safe. This is easy. You have nothing to fear._" That is the foundation he needs so we can sometimes trot or canter without him getting and staying elevated.

Very good ride. Not as exciting as the previous one, but we've got to lay a good foundation to build on. That was my biggest mistake with Mia - I'd push her to do more before the foundation was solid, and then she'd collapse. MY fault, not HERS. In my defense, most of the books, trainers and advice I got on HF focused on MAKING her obey instead of TEACHING her she could do it with me....


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## Woodhaven

I'm glad you had a good ride it sounds like you and Bandit are working well together, it is so nice when horse and rider become a team, enjoyable for both


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## bsms

Queen rides out lockdown: Monarch, 94, is seen in the saddle for the first time since coronavirus​
Cool!

Had a good ride with Bandit today. Nothing spectacular but we crossed the paved road to the west briefly. First time solo. The ATV track there won't work. Has a steep, rocky slope down, then a deep V with a steep climb out. Rocks in the bottom of the V. The horse would still be descending with his rump while climbing the other side with his front, or need to jump from a downslope to an upslope with questionable footing on the landing.

But...I think if we go off trail, we could zigzag our way across. I'll check it out on foot first because it would be bad to get into the brush and then find an obstacle we couldn't get over.

Still, while Bandit had moments of "_Are you SURE?_", he never gave up or balked. I do think, however, he was glad to get home. May do a couple of arena rides to keep him from getting sour on the trails....


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## gottatrot

The queen seems to prefer the grandpa bear stirrup setting. :smile:


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## SueC

That's so cool! I want to still be riding at 94! (But I don't think I'm going to have the same longevity, noone in our family that I know of got past 80...)


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## bsms

My wife came across a nearly 20 year old photo, a bit damaged - but I like it. My youngest & I when we were both much younger:


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## SueC

Awwww!  

I want to know where the last 20 years went - and how it can be June already! :music019:

Is this the one who went to the army?

And how's the daughter that ended up marrying a piece of work and then thankfully extricating herself going, and how are her kids? ...I hope things are much improved for her. Kids tend to complicate this kind of scenario unfortunately, but you never know, the ex might fall down a crack that opens up in the earth. :angrily_smileys:


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## bsms

The photo, @SueC, is the one who is now in the US Air Force but posted to an Army base in Georgia. She was quarantined for 14 days after arriving but seems to be adjusting well. She thinks Trooper would like to come visit her and help control the grass. She likes the thunderstorms they get there but misses Arizona.

The older daughter is contesting the Rule 69 agreement. It may work out that she'll get joint custody without going to court. Those negotiations are still going on. I have very strong opinions about what has happened but it is best not to air them now. Maybe not later, since it is the kids I need to be concerned about. And kids sometimes need adults to be quiet. Even when adults want to scream!

She started counseling for abusive relations in January and is finding it very helpful. Thank you for asking and thank you for helping ME to understand how abusive relations can involve far more than just beatings.


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## bsms

My wife beat me out of bed this morning and fed the horses hay first thing, so no riding today. By the time they finish their hay, it will be too hot to ride and I don't think it is fair to ask Bandit to go work while his friends stay behind and eat everything. Bandit agrees with that assessment.

Some pictures of a place Bandit and I went on our last ride. Houses are close but it is easy to feel like you are in the middle of nowhere. The first photo may be worth clicking on to enlarge.


























ATVs like to tackle things straight on, but they don't have long legs and these spots are pretty tough on a horse. Getting past there would open up a lot of interesting riding area for us, but we need to go look for a different route. My family has ridden this spot a number of times, but I often dismount for Bandit because the bottom of the wash is very narrow (2 feet) with rocks. I need to find a gentler path that snakes between the brush and leave this one for the ATVs with their tires.

This thread got me thinking about it: Do you use a breastplate/breast collar ?

It doesn't go on forever but it certainly challenges the horses, in part because it is easy to slip there. But our saddles haven't slipped around when going there and we don't use breastplates. I'd be curious is that is due to luck, saddle fit or riding position on steep spots. Hard to find out with such a small sample size.


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> It doesn't go on forever but it certainly challenges the horses, in part because it is easy to slip there. But our saddles haven't slipped around when going there and we don't use breastplates. I'd be curious is that is due to luck, saddle fit or riding position on steep spots. Hard to find out with such a small sample size.


Since all the trail riders were using breast collars, I would put one on Amore when going on hilly rides. After a while, I realized it would be impossible for a girth to expand enough for the saddle to slide back, due to her large barrel. The girth sits just behind the shoulder on her.









Halla's barrel was almost the same width from front to back. Hers slid back a couple of times on very steep hills. But in my experience the hill has to be _very_ steep and also long for this to happen. For example, we can go up and down sand dunes with no issues.


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## bsms

That's a thought! It makes mechanical sense, too - the expanding barrel on some horses might cause the girth / cinch to be a better anchor. Thanks! Like most people, I forget how horses look from above:










Seems lots of issues arise from people using pseudo-mechanics and looking at stick figures taken from the horse's side, forgetting they (and we) are three dimensional creatures.


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## bsms

Bandit seemed a bit stressed by our solo trail ride yesterday. I don't know why but he seemed really happy to get home. So for today, we stayed in the arena. And spent most of our 30 minutes ride with him standing still, grazing, while I just sat on his back. We did a few trots. A few canters. We did a few zigzags outside of the arena. But I dedicated most of our time together today to just relaxing on his back while he got to eat.

We can work harder tomorrow, maybe. But it seems to me - and to Bandit too! - OK to have a few "hanging out together" rides with the main emphasis being Bandit's contentment.

I had ridden yesterday, gone for a run yesterday, and lifted weights yesterday. Honestly, just stretching my legs while on Bandit worked fine for me too! We only occasionally hit this level of riding - :cowboy: - and that was fine for us both!


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## Woodhaven

Sometimes a laid back relaxing ride is good for horses, and people too.
Today Sis and I went out for one of those rides, she was riding the granddaughters' pony so a shorter and slower ride, combined with a few stops to visit neighbours on the way home, Very relaxing and the horses were good so a pleasant ride.


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## bsms

Nothing comparable to the Australian fires, but this one in the Santa Catalina Mtns north of Tucson (maybe 40-50 miles from here) were started by lightning. They started at the left on the far side of the mountain and have been blown east (right) for the last few days. They have now crossed over to the front of the range.








This evening:








Currently 37,000 acres & 21% contained. Believe there are close to 600 firefighters working it. News photo:



















Stories here:

https://www.kgun9.com/news/wildfires​


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## bsms

Fire is now at 58,553 acres and 16% contained, with nearly 1,000 firefighters involved. Looks like the emphasis is on trying to make firebreaks along possible lines of travel toward homes. For the rest? I think it will need to just burn itself out. It is extremely rough country.

The last couple of rides, Bandit & I have done significantly more cantering. At the longer stirrup length, both Bandit and I prefer a canter to a big trot. In some places I leave my free hand on my thigh, but in a wash I put my free hand against the horn. There are rocks just under the sand in the wash and if he stumbles at a canter, it will help me a lot of I can push my shoulders back using the rear of the horn.

He gets more emotional when we do more fast work and tends to be a bit spookier. The good news is his startle reactions are about 5% of Mia's, or less. Easy to ride thru, just annoying. I cussed at him when he startled over a rabbit underfoot. Just cussed, and I'm sure my pastor wouldn't approve, but Bandit seemed unfazed. He's heard his fair share of 4 letter words by now.

Did a little experimenting with the longer stirrup setting which I used all of these last rides. I can definitely have my stirrups at the front edge of the saddle and have my rump a finger thickness off the saddle. If this guy leaned just a little forward, it would pull his buttocks up off the saddle...maybe he does, in fact, since he is not leaning back:










Pretty sure no one cared much 132 years ago about weight on the saddle, but I do. I also asked Bandit to go up some very steep spots so I could see how the longer setting worked and it was fine. It isn't as good for a big trot, but the longer setting feels more secure and works fine going up or down hills and is better at a canter.

When we got to the top of one of the steep spots, the ground ahead was covered with cactus bombs - small cactus with long, needle-like spines, mostly hidden in clumps of innocent looking grass. I don't think Bandit knew why I suddenly was asking him to twist and turn, but those needles would only have to graze a leg to hurt a horse! I hate finding myself in a patch of them. Very hard to see in time to avoid them!

So the last few rides have seen Bandit & I doing well. He isn't thrilled about going out solo but he warms into it after the first mile. He's worked hard enough the last few rides to get tired. He'll stretch his neck down and out as we go up the final hill toward home. No, he is NOT "seeking contact"! Doesn't want it at all. Just getting tired because he hasn't spent much time cantering before and because we are doing more deep sand & steep spots. I've watched videos of horses working "long and low", supposedly "seeking contact" and Bandit acts like them when he is tired and needs to stretch his back and neck. But he doesn't do it because he wants to feel the darn bit!

He MIGHT be getting to the point I could consider going back to the Dr Cook's bitless bridle, or maybe a mechanical hackamore. The only problem I see would be when we need to do emergency direct reining due to cactus bombs....


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## waresbear

Two years ago, a year after the mass evacuations (we were not here that, we were living in Vancouver after my husband's lung transplant), there was a fire on the ridge over. The fire crew took it very seriously, got treated to a great Air Show for a couple of days. Like your pictures, we had the bird dogs spilling their guts all over the fire, my fav! Hopefully everything calms down for your area.


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## bsms

An interesting article on face masks from 2016, back before wearing masks had become a political issue:

https://www.oralhealthgroup.com/features/face-masks-dont-work-revealing-review/

It seem plausible to me that a mask could reduce transmission/absorption of infectious particles by some degree, but that the degree might vary from 1% to much more, depending on the mask. Of course, assuming the eyes and hands are exposed, then the total improvement might be less that the mask's improvement.'

The risk reduction might be almost nil if alternate transmission would occur anyway.

I was stuck with using a mask yesterday to buy some bolts to fix a bunk bed the grandkids were going to use last night. It wasn't worth it to me to drive 20 miles to buy them in a no mask required area. The mask I wore MIGHT catch snot. Apart from that, I could easily breath thru it. A practice cough demonstrated I could feel the air coming out with ease.

It would be nice to see hard data but like helmets, the data seems to be all over the place. And like helmets, it seems total risk reduction might depend on other factors. I know I for one will tend to push Bandit harder to try something he really doesn't want to do if I'm wearing a helmet. That is pure psychology on my part since my real risks of a fall are primarily cactus and broken ribs/back based on where and how I ride.

Not trying to push a view here since it has become more a political discussion in the USA than a safety discussion. Like helmets, I'd be thrilled if folks would just accept that folks can come to a different conclusion without becoming angry or demeaning the other person. Maybe it is bad manners learned on the Internet, but it seems folks now are far more likely to berate a total stranger in public than they did 20+ years ago. I jogged down a street last week and some woman started shouting at me and pointing at her mask as she stood in her yard. I couldn't hear what she was saying but I'm pretty sure it wasn't, "_Have a nice day!_" as I jogged a good 75 yards or more away from her!

Between the Internet and Twitter, it seems folks just feel OK with being incredibly rude to others. Not just on the Internet, but person to person in public. That may be why I like dogs and horses better than people, and why I prefer to keep 10+ feet of "social distance" between myself and strangers any more. My Mom used to put on makeup and a nice dress to go buy groceries. That may be overkill, but it beats the standard of public behavior we have now!


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## waresbear

Okay I was jokingly rude to someone in the liquor store, but it was so perfect I couldn't resist.
We were in line, he was in front of me, an older, heavier, gentleman, and he made some comment about me getting closer in line, something about my mask, I don't know for sure because I wasn't really listening. I said to him I wear the mask for you, to what he says don't worry I'm not afraid of the covid, don't do it for me. I said oh no it's because I'm really ugly and I am saving people from having to look at me, maybe you should consider the same thing, hehe. He was good about it, he said he would need a mask for his whole body, lol.


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> Not trying to push a view here since it has become more a political discussion in the USA than a safety discussion.


Interesting article. It is disappointing to me that this has become a political discussion because it means any real interest in facts and science don't matter. What I've seen is that people verbally agree the mask won't really protect them, say they wear it to protect others, but then they behave as though the mask protects them. For example yesterday I saw some couples in the store where one (more fragile appearing and presumably with health issues) wore a mask but the other didn't. 

It would be more helpful to those with health issues, who are at the greatest risk of being sick and dying if they get Covid, if rather than saying everyone should wear any mask, homemade, partially applied, etc., that instead there would a push to make sure those who are medically fragile wear _fitted_ N95 masks with no gaps around the sides when out in public. With eye protection as well. Then they would actually have some real protection.

For me personally, the idea that wearing a mask shows you respect others or care about people is so much fluff. I care about facts and science. 
At my job, there is a policy to put non-skid slippers on all patients when they are in bed, in case they try to get up on their own and fall. Which is fine, except don't tell me I need to put them on a quadriplegic who not only is paralyzed, you would have to get three people to physically drag him out of bed onto the floor. Don't say, "But if you put slippers on him, it will show that you _care_ and don't want him to fall." It doesn't matter. He physically can't fall out of bed. 
Also, if someone is opposed to wearing slippers for some reason, then I don't force them to. There are many ways to make sure a person doesn't fall that don't require slippers. 

I believe in using actual measures that work in actual situations where people may exposed to viruses. The emphasis should be on protecting the fragile, which may include obese children with asthma and others outside of the usual "elderly" groups. Those are the ones that have been getting very sick and dying from Covid. Having a million people wear a cloth mask that allows everything to pass through will not save those fragile people. Having the fragile people wear a fitted N95 mask, eye protection and performing good hand hygiene when around other people could save nearly every one of them. 
Along with that, real educational posters showing how to "cover your cough," wear a fitted N95 mask if you have to go out in public with a runny nose or cough, and promoting hand hygeine would cover the rest of us. They could have places where people could go to be fit-tested for a N95 mask, like they do with health care workers.


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## bsms

Judging from the behavior I've seen in the last couple of days, in a county where masks are now semi-mandatory (if you cannot maintain social distancing, but then it is assumed one cannot) - people are acting like masks give them permission to behave as they otherwise would. Want to go to a casino? Wear a mask and go. Want to go to a bar or a crowded restaurant? Wear a mask and go. Then drop the mask to eat! It seems to me both are higher risk activities. Masks won't make people safe, but it give them the feeling they are safe - and then they act on feelings. They might make people somewhat safer, regardless of my interpretation of the data, but they certainly do not make it SAFE.

To use helmets again, it is like the person who thinks they don't need instruction in jumping because they are wearing a helmet. Or who will push a nervous horse hard, using a whip or spurs (both of which were recommended to me when I rode Mia!) - and then saying, "_I've got a helmet. I'm as safe as I can be!_"

If masks work, regardless of my skepticism, then they work a LITTLE. At best, they are a tool to add some fairly small degree of protection to other measures: frequent hand washing, social distancing even if that means not doing something you want to do, and most of all, *avoiding people if you or they are coughing, sneezing or have a fever*.

Most of my friends are older than I am, from their late 60s on into their 80s. Some of them have had serious heart or lung issues. I'd LOVE to see them given fitted N95 masks, and shop with disposable gloves. I like stores who do temperature checks. I like churches having online services both to reduce their numbers in the church (thus increasing distance) and to allow higher risk people a way to stay connected without attending. ZOOM may not be my favorite, but it has allowed some friends who need oxygen tanks to make comments and then "talk" with video to friends before and after a service. I think that is important. Often much more important than anything that goes on in the service. Older people with health issues can find themselves cut off from society. Some then give up and I don't entirely blame them.

And yeah, anyone who is upset at a jogger moving down a street hundreds of feet away from her has issues. Issues that go way beyond any discussion of masks!

PS: I was looking forward to a ride this morning but by 5:30 AM the wind was blowing hard. All the trees are waiving their arms like something out of The Wizard of Oz. I'm pretty sure Bandit wants to stay in his corral and not have any angry trees throwing apples at him, if only because Bandit dislikes apples. Frustrating because I really wanted to ride, but Bandit is not ready to go solo into the desert in wind like this. Nor do I want to feel like the Scarecrow!


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## Woodhaven

Masks might help but I do not feel they give me the safety to do everything as usual. I wear a mask when grocery shopping and other necessary trips but I don't trust them completey. Hubby has health issues so I take no chances.
I need my hair cut but will continue to put it off as not really necessary right now, I don't want to bring anything home to Hubby.
As seniors we can stay home and it's not much different for us. 
I do go riding but it's at my sister's and no other people around and we try to keep a little distance between us as she is very careful too with her health issues.

You are wise to pick the right day to ride, this just shows good judgement on your part. Why ask for trouble, pick your ride times for success I say and let time and practice build up gradually to what you would have faced today. It will come in time.
Hoping for a less windy day for you and Bandit to enjoy


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## bsms

Thank you, Woodhaven. Bandit and I will work up to things.

I wish to point out I have no problem at all with anyone wearing a mask for additional protection! It also certainly won't HURT, and if it may help....

But I wish I was seeing more emphasis on things like temperature checks to hopefully catch someone who is just becoming a good source of infection, and high quality protection for nursing homes, improvement in prisons and places like meat-packing plants. I think some businesses need restrictions, and may go out of business because adapting may be too expensive. We may need to get used to take-out instead of sit-inside for dining, or even - gasp! - eating real food at home!

The virus isn't bouncing around like basketballs all over the world, but it sure isn't "just the flu". There is a lot we need to try. Schools will be a real challenge, and that comes in July in my school district! We need a full-court press instead of hoping for a magic shot at victory. And since most of my friends view me as a youngster....:eek_color:


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## bsms

*Challenging what I think I already know*

Challenging what we already know....

I think it is good for us to sometimes challenge ourselves and re-examine things we have already concluded. That usually results in confirming what we previously discovered to be true, but it sometimes results in finding things are more complex than we realized. No, for now I am NOT talking about masks, COVID or dieting!

Early on, I quickly became a fan of both VS Littauer and some of the writings of Gen Harry Chamberlin. The Forward SYSTEM of riding made sense. When I switched to western, I kept the basic principles of forward balance, getting off the back and not wanting to get "behind" the horse - which was a cardinal sin to both writers!

The Abetta is an English-like version of a western saddle. The footprint is similar to my Bates CC saddle and the stirrups naturally hang under the hip. Size comparison here:








I've become quite fond of it. The Cordura nylon has more friction than my leather saddle and it is much narrower. It feel comfortable, almost English, in its basic narrow twist. Compared to my leather saddle below:








The leather one is much wider. I can feel it spreading my legs more. And significantly, the Abetta's tree ends about 3 inches earlier - much closer to the cantle.

I've been riding the Abetta for a long time. Experimenting with a much longer, much more Old West style leg got me thinking. One of the things I like about the Abetta is its grip - the friction of the coarse nylon means my relaxed leg has some automatic grip. I feel more secure in a spook. 
*
But am I?​*
I got thinking about it. I rode my slick saddle during my last year with Mia, and while it FELT insecure, the truth is I never came out of it. And Mia could SPOOK! So could there be something else going on?

I did a couple of rides with my leather saddle in the arena with the longer stirrup setting. It still felt slick and was...but did I REALLY slide around much more? Slick means SLICK:








Bandit doesn't spook enough to test things, but when I tried to feel movement in speed transitions or sharp turns, paying attention to how much I slid...I wasn't actually sliding much. Could the SHAPE of the seat be compensating for it slickness?

And on a positive note, the lack of friction/grip meant my weight DID slide totally into the stirrups. It isn't possible to have any grip with the knee or even thigh when polished leather is beneath one's jeans.

So I tried it today with the small sheepskin for cushion - because I have no butt for cushion and the hard seat saddle is also hard! It looked like this:

















Bandit's head is NOT bigger than is body. He turned to me just as I snapped the picture. But I think you can see there is no way to grip anything with one's leg. My sheepskin ends before much of my thigh touches with weight, so no help from friction. 

I also wanted to see how it worked while riding more "on my pockets", which was anathema to Littauer and Chamberlin but very common in western riding. How would THAT affect Bandit, given that my weight is distributed over a much wider and much longer area?

Well, it worked fine. Bandit and I had a couple of mild arguments. I took him out without breakfast first and he considered EVERY mesquite worth checking for beans, even if my eyes told me 80% of the mesquite had none. NO BEAN LEFT BEHIND was Bandit's hungry motto, so we did some arguing. And it felt fine. Well...secure enough to argue.

Asked him for a canter down the wash. He thought about stopping to check a mesquite after a couple hundred yards so I pushed him to keep going. I was on my pockets to the point of being able to feel the cantle and he hauled butt with no sign of difficulty. I chose a steep spot to climb out, with a bush to scramble over, and did NOT lean way forward - and Bandit had no problem, unlike when I tried the same thing in the Abetta.

Could some of the issue be based, not on center of gravity, but on the shorter end of English saddles (and the Abetta) poking the loin? Could it be a gouging issue based on saddle design with the longer and wider western tree eliminating gouging the loin?

Don't know. We went a ways on a trail, then dropped back into the wash at another place where it was steep enough (and uneven enough) to challenge Bandit. Then climbed out at another spot, also steeper than normal. And again, Bandit seemed to have no issue - unlike if I behaved in the same way in the Abetta or my Aussie-style saddle.

Honestly, it felt good and Bandit showed no difficulty. We did some zig-zagging across the desert. With no trail to follow, Bandit was butter soft in the reins. He wanted to know where I thought we should go - unlike in a wash or trail, where he figures he already knows so why in the heck am I trying to tell him something!

We got in a couple more drops and climbs, did a little trotting and a couple of canters. I needed to use my waist and hips to absorb motion - NOT my lower back - but Bandit seemed very athletic. Much more so than I expected given how I was riding.

Chamberlin, and to a lesser extent Littauer, despised western riding. Both would have been unhappy watching me ride today. More on my pockets and with a loose, slick leg. But Bandit was performing every bit as good as if I had stood up and gotten off his back. 

So food for thought. Being behind the horse can be good if a horse stumbles or does a dropped shoulder spin, but MAYBE being behind the horse is fine IF your saddle distributes weight over a large area. People often say western riding and English are just the same with a different saddle, and most western riding books (if you can even find one) are just regurgitated dressage manuals concerning position. But maybe there is a real difference. That would challenge what I thought I already "know"!


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## carshon

I think your observation is correct. The longer bars of the bigger saddle are distributing your weight more evenly across Bandit's back - with better weight distribution his movement is free(er) But as you pointed out your weight has to be IN the saddle to be distributed so riding on your pockets works well for both of you.

A good english saddle will place the rider directly at the horses center of gravity and make the rider feel safe and secure. My understanding (and I could be wrong) is that this type of saddle relies less on bars for weight distribution and more on rider placement.

This issue can get even more involved as there are pros and cons of fiberglass tree VS wood tree etc. Saddle fitting is a hot topic even on this forum and is an ever evolving science.

I can say from personal experience that the older saddles are not better. I have many of the saddle I grew up with (both english and western) most of those saddles were older than I was when I started riding. When I rode in one last it was not a comfortable saddle for either myself or the horse - the same with the english saddle. Horses and riders have changed so much in the past 50 years that it is hard to carry information from 50 years ago and have it be completely accurate today. 

I appreciate your scientific mind and way of experimenting.


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## SueC

It all sounds very logical, well thought through, and backed up with empirical evidence.  I've not ever ridden in a Western saddle, but have ridden in saddles with vastly different contact areas, sizes, lengths and distribution.

I rode in a Bates Caprilli for decades before buying an Ascot Romana, which is specially recommended for wide-backed horses like my Arabian mare was, and Sunsmart is. My horse was far more comfortable in the Romana and just a thin saddle blanket, compared to a Caprilli with or without a sheepskin (the Caprilli was more comfortable for him with a sheepskin). The contact area is much larger and the saddle takes weight well behind the cantle, so no "pinch" there where certain situations could produce pinch with the Caprilli.

I've never ridden particularly forward except over jumps, and only lean forward going up hills (and I don't leave the saddle to do it unless the hill is very steep and/or we are galloping), and I sit my canters at speeds when other people might start leaning forward or getting out of the saddle, which I don't do until the horse is galloping rapidly. I was taught as a child to do it more like the forward riding you describe, but as I started endurance training and riding as a teenager, I experimented and worked out what was most comfortable for my horse and for me - and this I expect to be different depending on horse, rider, horse-rider combination, and tack, so I think experimentation is the way to go. Sunsmart wanted me staying upright and in contact with the saddle even more than my Arabian mare did, until far greater speeds were reached. And by the way, I ride long-length stirrup settings, much like in dressage, all through terrain etc, with a long, relaxed leg.

I think the old idea of "freeing up the horse's back" is a bit problematic - if you're in a saddle, then there's going to be the same weight in that saddle whether you're sitting and upright or standing over the withers perched in your stirrups - your weight doesn't magically disappear, and is transferred to the horse via the saddle. What your orientation in the saddle does do is shift the _distribution_ of that weight somewhat, off the cantle and more towards the pommel if you're really leaning forward and out of the seat, and as you suggest, this is going to be more of an issue with saddles that have less contact area / fit less well etc, and can produce "pinch" at the loins of the horse.

I've never personally believed that general (walk, trot, canter) riding with the weight deliberately as much in the stirrups as possible offered the horse an advantage over being a "sticky" rider (like in bareback) with little weight deliberately in the stirrups - just from personal experimentation - but of course, I'm only one type of rider using a particular range of tack and riding mostly wide-backed, very athletic horses, so what applies in my case doesn't necessarily hold for everyone - which is why the empirical approach (experiment, experiment, experiment - and listen to your horse) is so important in getting horse and rider comfortable. :charge:

Thanks for posting your experiments!  Always good to read what other people find.


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## phantomhorse13

bsms said:


> Could some of the issue be based, not on center of gravity, but on the shorter end of English saddles (and the Abetta) poking the loin? Could it be a gouging issue based on saddle design with the longer and wider western tree eliminating gouging the loin?


I don't think you can make broad generalizations by saddle type as much as you can say you have found what does (or doesn't) work for Bandit and you. I think the pad also may make a difference.

I have ridden thousands of miles in english-type saddles over all sorts of terrain and never had issues with poking of loins. But I once borrowed a friend's western saddle that seemed to fit George just fine (as well as a nice wool pad) because I wanted something with a horn for my mom to hold while I ponied her around the farm. We were out for maybe 30 minutes and walked all but a handful of steps. That evening, George was sore to the touch just in front of his hips.

Beginner riding like a sack of potatoes not helping? Probably. Saddle didn't fit as well as I thought? Apparently. But the next time Mom came up and wanted to ride, I used George's normal (english) saddle and just put a neck strap on for her to hold.. no issues. So George's body shape apparently doesn't like a bigger saddle for whatever reason.

Trying to find the best saddle for horse and rider is one of the most challenging aspects of riding IMO. And often we are stuck learning the hard way at the horse's expense!


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## bsms

My understanding - and my actual experience with English is very limited - is that English saddles should end before the loin:



> "The weight-bearing surface of a horse’s back is the area that is supported by the ribs. This area is known as the thoracic region. It runs from about the point of his shoulder to the middle of his back. The 18th vertebra represents the end of the thoracic, or weight-bearing, area and is associated with the last rib.
> 
> The lumbar region of his back has no ribs and therefore no support structure; it should not bear weight. This area runs from about the middle of his back to the point of his croup."
> 
> https://www.doversaddlery.com/english-saddle-fitting-guidelines/a/405/





> "Point 8: Length of the Saddle
> The weight-bearing surface of a saddle should be between the horse's wither area and the point where the last rib meets the spine. To find this point (technically known as T18), Freeze shows us how to locate the last rib and follow it with our fingers as far as we can. He explains that it may be hard to feel once we get up into the horse's back-muscle area. If the saddle sits too far back beyond this point, it will rest on the lumbar region--the weakest part of a horse's back--where it can cause injury, because the lumbar region cannot support a rider's weight."
> 
> https://dressagetoday.com/instruction/eq9points447-12536









So in theory, an English saddle should end before it can cause interference. 

A western saddle almost always extend onto the loin, and it also has a lot of weight distribution back there:








My Abetta feels more English to me, but it is kind of in between. In my two saddles the Abetta extends about 2 inches back and out 5.5" from the centerline, while the semi-custom leather one extends closer to 4 inches back and extend 8 inches to the side. The Abetta is violating the rules of English fitting while also not achieving the full distribution of weight over the loin that a typical western tree does.

I still like it and it does a good job in most places. Bandit canters fine in it, although he climbed up spots easier today. And that makes sense. He sometimes has to play jackrabbit and use both hind legs to thrust us up, which is a bit more vigorous than the Abetta handles. I can compensate, though, by getting out of the saddle and leaning more forward.

The bigger saddle - which uses a standard length & width western tree - just offers more protection for him. Than the Abetta. And an English saddle is designed to protect the loin by not being ON the loin.

I also agree with you @phantomhorse13 and @SueC that these things involve individual preferences with horses. There isn't A way to ride, or A saddle that is right. Instead, the longer I ride, the more I am convinced all riding is a search for what clicks with a particular goal, particular horse and particular rider. How much of my own riding has been shaped by my back injury in Jan 2009? I rode with pain for years and needed to keep a stiff back - and a stiff back and what I'm doing now don't go together! But then, I couldn't have done anything different. It was hard enough just to mount up, and Mia wasn't the easiest horse to learn on!

But we learn, if we let our horses teach us. And if we remember that what we learned 5 years ago on horse A may be the wrong answer - or at least not as good an answer - now on horse B. I'll admit: *The longer I ride, the less certain I become.*

And I thank God horses are such forgiving creatures. Mine seem pretty determined to judge me by my intentions, not just my successes! And I need that.


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## SueC

There's theory, and there's what happens in the real world... Where English saddles end kinda depends on how short the horse's back is compared to the saddle size the rider needs etc... especially with large riders on smallish horses.

Horses with more exposed spines have more issues with "pinch" than horses with flat, well muscled backs, too.

My horse with the Ascot Romana:



His back is longer than my Arabian mare's was, but you can see how the saddle splays out and sideways underneath the cantle instead of stopping in line with it like the Bates Caprilli and my other older English APs did - and that extra contact area is something that resulted in a much more comfortable horse, for me - plus, look how it's cut away in front underneath to allow for a horse with massive shoulder blades, like this French Trotter cross has... this was just right for him, and also for me...

You can also see how because I'm a really tall person with a long back and wide shoulders, the centre of gravity of that part of me when riding is much higher in me than it would be in @phantomhorse13 or in @Knave, so it makes sense that horses prefer me to move my upper body backwards and forwards less than they would find comfortable with a smaller, lighter person riding.

PS: This was my horse in his first year of riding, with the Bates Caprilli - which wasn't comfortable for him without this sheepskin:










...but it worked _OK_ until we got the far better constructed, better fitted saddle.


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## Knave

I am so far behind on your journal I don’t think I’m much good in this conversation. I kind of fall into a type of thinking that is more “in practice” than “in theory.” Zeus has a super short back and the saddle sits where it sits. Cash is huge and so wide saddles are happy on him. The only horse who’s given my much concern with saddle fit is Bones, because he is tiny and awkwardly built. Old fashioned they say...

Anyways, what struck me was the compliment that you think I am small @SueC!! It was funny for this specific moment, because I was only seconds before talking about being built like a football player. Lol. I am not particularly small, and my girls aren’t either. We are built tall and usually fit, much like you I think.

In fact, my father was at a basketball game watching my oldest play. He laughed that it was unfair to watch draft horses play against little hot bred horses. Lol


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## SueC

@Knave, my apologies - you just look lithe and like you could float on air and I really don't, and you don't make Bones look small when you ride him.  Whereas I'm 5ft11 and 75kg and want to lie down a lot these days because of the effort of maintaining all of me vertical! :rofl:


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## bsms

SueC said:


> ....I've never ridden particularly forward except over jumps, and only lean forward going up hills (and I don't leave the saddle to do it unless the hill is very steep and/or we are galloping), and I sit my canters at speeds when other people might start leaning forward or getting out of the saddle...
> 
> ...as I started endurance training and riding as a teenager, I experimented and worked out what was most comfortable for my horse and for me...Sunsmart wanted me staying upright and in contact with the saddle even more than my Arabian mare did...And by the way, I ride long-length stirrup settings, much like in dressage, all through terrain etc, with a long, relaxed leg.
> 
> I think the old idea of "freeing up the horse's back" is a bit problematic...
> 
> I've never personally believed that general (walk, trot, canter) riding with the weight deliberately as much in the stirrups as possible offered the horse an advantage over being a "sticky" rider (like in bareback) with little weight deliberately in the stirrups - just from personal experimentation...


This is pretty much what I'm finding, at least with Bandit. I overthink everything. In my defense, someone starting at 50 on a spooky horse has some special challenges and the advice I got from local trainers was largely useless.

I've concluded horses prefer stability and predictability from their rider more than things like peak pressures, center of gravity, etc. One show jumper mentioned using a dummy for jumping practice. He found if he braced the dummy enough to keep it stable, then the horse jumped better with the dummy than with an experienced show jumper on his back! And I noticed a long time ago that pack animals carry weights much heavier than live riders without harm, maybe because the weight is both stable AND lower on their body.

In trotting, I can use my knees to flex, reducing PEAK pressures on the horse's back. In the arena, Bandit appreciates that. But I can't really do that at a walk, canter or gallop. And we don't trot or canter on level, smooth ground on the trail (or off trail). When the ground becomes uneven, with gullies and rocks, I think Bandit goes back to preferring a stable and predictable weight. 

If he can predict how my weight will respond, he can solve the balance issues. Riders like to boast about improving their horse's balance, but Bandit does calculus in balance while I add simple sums. On rough terrain, he feels safest when I am at my most predictable - which may mean staying deeper in the saddle and NOT trying to help him. 

I still love the feel of floating above my horse in the arena, and Bandit doesn't mind it - in the arena. But for moving fast in a place like below, he doesn't have spare brain cells to solve both the uneven, shifting footing AND my too uneven, shifting weight!








It might be different if I was younger or more athletic or spent 8 hours a day riding. But I'm not any of those. :shrug:


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## bsms

Don't want to discuss mask pros and cons here, but came across a reasonable, well documented 16 page pdf file from the World Health Organization, near the bottom of this page:

https://www.who.int/emergencies/dis...9/advice-for-public/when-and-how-to-use-masks

This is a summary statement:


> In the context of the COVID-19 pandemic, it is recommended that all persons, regardless of whether they are using masks or not, should:
> 
> • avoid groups of people and crowded spaces (follow local advice);
> 
> • maintain physical distance of at least 1 metre (3.3 feet) from other persons, especially from those with respiratory symptoms (e.g. coughing, sneezing);
> 
> • perform hand hygiene frequently, using an alcoholbased handrub if hands are not visibly dirty or soap and water;
> 
> • use respiratory hygiene i.e. cover their nose and mouth with a bent elbow or paper tissue when coughing or sneezing, dispose of the tissue immediately after use, and perform hand hygiene;
> 
> • refrain from touching their mouth, nose, and eyes.
> 
> https://apps.who.int/iris/rest/bitstreams/1279750/retrieve


It covers the debate on asymptomatic transmission (with studies), mask types, advantages and disadvantages, and when they recommend different degrees of masking. Seems very apolitical to me and much better than most editorials for or against. One thing surprised me: They keep referencing social distancing as requiring 1 meter separation versus the 6 feet commonly used in the USA. Me? I like people best when they are 10 feet away....:smile:

I offer it FWIW because it is the best discussion I've seen to date. But what others do is their business. I'm getting too old to tell others how to live. Or ride. Or even walk in public....except for this: Please, pull your pants up above your butt crack! Apart from that...:rofl:


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## bsms

BTW - got a good ride in on Bandit. We went on a few sections of trail we hadn't gone on before. The rain yesterday made things look different and he was more tense than usual but he behaved well. At one point we picked a new spot to climb out of the wash, about a 10 foot climb. Got on top and there was no where to go! Heavy brush and the only possibility went next to or over a rotting log. Bandit made it clear he'd rather fight than pass it - which could have just been a strange smell, but the log was the kind of place rattlesnakes sometimes use. Didn't want to take a chance on meeting a rattlesnake and didn't want to pick a fight inches from a steep 10 foot drop so I asked Bandit to turn around an re-enter the wash. He did a 180 in a place that didn't look like it had enough room and carefully took us back down.

At one point he wanted to canter toward a place with rocky footing. I decided to let him and see what he would do. He did a nice canter and transitioned to a walk on his own a stride away from the rocky footing. I feel much better cantering with a horse who pays attention to things like that and handles it on his own!

:loveshower:​


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## SueC

bsms said:


> It covers the debate on asymptomatic transmission (with studies), mask types, advantages and disadvantages, and when they recommend different degrees of masking. *Seems very apolitical to me* and much better than most editorials for or against.


You know, in most of the world, there's no politics attached to wearing masks or not, and here in Australia we're totally bamboozled about how mask-wearing has become _politicised_ in America, and become a symbol of pro versus anti science, and which political party you vote for especially. mg:

It seems from our vantage point outside of your particular fishbowl (we all have fishbowls) that a lot of things are ridiculously politicised in America and get really really binary and extreme. And it seems to pretty much everyone of my acquaintance that the US would be a horrible society to live in because it's so reactionary and there's so much rubbish like this and kneejerk reacting and out-and-proud narcissism, and don't get me started on the anti-science thing and religious loonies trying to hijack the agenda and make everyone else live by their "standards" and living in a country with such rampant gun violence and a militarised police who shoot citizens as a matter of course on a frequent basis with very few ramifications...and that the idea of having social safety nets is virtually seen as communism... not to mention the way the USA rides around the world declaring itself to be the universal sheriff of right and wrong, and defender of world freedom, which would be presumptuous enough but is such a transparent cover for exploiting everyone else on the planet and wanting to run the whole show like it's a God-given right, and that is what a lot of non-Americans find so incredibly offensive about America and the way it conducts itself in the world. Now Australia isn't a paragon of virtue either, but at least we don't go around trumpeting about freedom when we mean self-interest, trying to get our hands on other countries' resources (which our government is also guilty of), or trying to justify why we're more important than anybody else, or when we don't want to do something that might actually benefit the community as a whole. It's the rhetoric which is so incredibly nauseating.

There's so much head-scratching amongst people from other countries about American "freedom" - you guys aren't any more free, in real terms, than people in most Western democracies, and most people in such democracies wouldn't wish to swap, because it seems we have entirely different concepts of freedom. We don't prize the freedom to carry arms (we find that quite alarming), or the freedom to be selfish prats, or the freedom to get sick and die in the gutter while noone gives a shiitake and any talk of universal healthcare (which we've had for decades here and all but the right-wingers in our country really like having) is seen as anathema, or the freedom to be an idiot, or the freedom to be obnoxious outside a supermarket because you don't want to cover your face - I can't tell you how sick most non-Americans feel watching antics like this. It's not like we don't have social problems here, it's just the rhetoric and the rudeness and the "me-firstness" that is so incredibly nauseating - and in real terms, for the majority of people, there seems to be a lot less freedom and life seems to be a lot meaner in the US, than in Australia or Scandinavia or Germany or France etc. There just seems to be this giant internal fiction in America about how free everyone is, when objectively it looks like such a miserable society to live in to a lot of other people. 

Maybe it's the insularity... Australia is a lot more insular than Europe as well and if you want to know what our main fiction is here, it's the concept of "mateship" - as if it didn't exist in other places in the world and as if we're somehow better at it than everyone else (we're not).

Anyway, our media here is agog over the American response to mask-wearing, not to mention how America has some of the worst statistics in the world for dealing with this pandemic, which to us seem intimately connected with the things that we find horrifying about American culture. And I don't want to broad-brush it, because clearly there are many lovely, intelligent, community-orientated, kind, caring people in the US as well - but OMG, the system you live under... 





> One thing surprised me: They keep referencing social distancing as requiring 1 meter separation versus the 6 feet commonly used in the USA. Me? I like people best when they are 10 feet away....:smile:


Yes, haha! :lol: ...the 1m thing is some kind of minimum pandemic standard for general pandemics, I believe - and countries can add to it because additional distance affords additional safety. 1km seems excellent to me, but would be highly impractical despite being a sure pandemic-cure! ;-)

You guys are doing 6 feet (1,8 metres), we're doing 1.5 metres, as is Germany; some places are doing 2 metres, some only 1 metre. It also depends on how crowded countries are, and the lower-distance countries tend to be the more mask-wearing ones to compensate (and it seems to work, if done properly and as part of a toolbox).




> I offer it FWIW because it is the best discussion I've seen to date. But what others do is their business. I'm getting too old to tell others how to live. Or ride. Or even walk in public....except for this: Please, pull your pants up above your butt crack! Apart from that...:rofl:


:rofl:

We call that "plumber's crack" in Australia. And isn't it funny how "posterior cleavage" is viewed almost universally negatively, while "anterior cleavage" in females is seen by many as decorative... I need an Understandascope...


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## bsms

There are undoubtedly cultural differences in freedom and what it means. I was shocked at the taxes paid in the UK & Australia - at least based on the folks I talked to there. Compared to the USA, they were high. Not so much income tax, but things like VAT or, in Australia, import duties on things like a Ford. But then one trades off things like some form of universal health care versus insurance via employers. Or any one of a number of other benefits. As a rule, based on when I've lived outside the USA, other countries accept paying the government more in exchange for getting more from the government. Which is right? I don't even know, let alone want to debate.

World's Policeman? Fair charge, and I spent too much of my life IMHO going places because our military is treated as the world's policeman. But I also noticed Europe was happy to have us provide them protection. Not everyone in Europe, but their governments were not complaining. After all, we only have bases in other countries when their governments give up permission. It is another complex question. Let's just say I'm glad I'll never again set foot in Saudi Arabia and fully support getting out of places like Afghanistan - where I did a tour in 2007. Two of my kids also spent time in Iraq and Afghanistan, and both of them reject the world's policeman too!

We had a Spanish exchange student spend a week with us while waiting for a permanent family. She said she was amazed at how different America was compared to what she expected based on Spanish news and TV. I'd be hard pressed to list every gun I own, but we also live in a place where we rarely lock our doors. But then, *half of all the murders in the USA take place in 2% of the counties*. And even within a county, most of the murders occur in a very small area:

"_About 70 percent of the counties, accounting for 20 percent of the U.S. population, had no more than one murder in 2014, with 54 percent of counties experiencing zero murders, the report found._"

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/apr/25/most-murders-occurred-in-5-percent-of-countys-says/

As I've noted before, 80% of the murder VICTIMS in Chicago have criminal records. Most cities have a small geographic area it is wise to avoid. And are pretty safe outside those areas.

"_the freedom to be obnoxious outside a supermarket because you don't want to cover your face_"

Actually, you are much more likely to encounter someone being obnoxious to make others wear a mask. Most of us who dislike masks don't care at all if someone else is wearing one. And the idea I need to wear one outside a grocery store is pretty silly. I can easily maintain social distancing in every store near me, which the WHO suggests is probably sufficient.

That may not be what makes the news, but the news is very biased. They create a false impression because we assume what we hear reflect what happens, but only bad news sells. Even more so when it involves the USA in news media outside the USA! That is what the Spanish exchange student noticed right away. She was actually a bit afraid to be coming to wild west Arizona and was surprised at how peaceful and relaxed her time here was (she left in May). That was also the experience of the German exchange student we had for a year, and a French exchange student we had for a couple of months. The real USA isn't much like what is shown on TV or in the news in foreign countries. That was also true during my 3.5 years in Oxford England, watching the BBC.....:evil:


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## bsms

"not to mention how America has some of the worst statistics in the world for dealing with this pandemic"

Deaths per 100K, by country:

Belgium 85.46
Andorra 67.53
United Kingdom 66.30
Spain 60.71
Italy 57.62
Sweden 53.14
France 44.60
US 39.35
Ireland 35.81
Netherlands 35.59

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality

Can't speak for other countries, but about half of all our deaths were within 100 miles of New York City, and half of the remaining deaths were in nursing homes. Outside of commuting distance of NYC, our death rate per 100,000 would be around 20-25. And if we had spent our money protecting nursing homes, might have been much lower than that!

Arizona is around 25/100,000, with half of those in nursing homes. What has happened in nursing homes in the USA ought to be criminal. The Navajo have also been very hard hit per capita.


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## SueC

Your points are all taken, and thanks for discussing! 

One thing about the pandemic stats though: Yes, this particular figure makes things look comparatively good at the moment (deaths per 100K) when you don't compare to Australia or NZ or Taiwan or Germany etc, but it's the _trajectory_ which is so scary, and the fact that because the early opportunities were missed lockdown wasn't as effective as in early-starting countries (not to mention the lack of testing capability when it could have put the fire out), and you've got so much more grief now - opening up before the curve was flat just horrified us overseas onlookers, and it seems to us that you guys ought to have been as capable as Australia or Germany of dealing with this pandemic, rather than the shonky way in which your main administration dealt with this crisis (as did the UK, completely shonky main admin response and the medical community having a hard time because of it) and how your states had to bid against each other for medical supplies driving prices up etc... and that, by the way, isn't just potentially hostile foreign media reporting, that was a documentary of New York hospitals during the pandemic, with the locals talking (doctors, nurses etc) when they had such horrifying fatality rates etc...

Yes, it doesn't help that your population is huge and that there's so much international travel to and from the US. It's just that the US seemed even more underprepared than a lot of its military allies in this case, and it surprised us...

I'm glad you're comfortable where you live.  A friend of mine from Sydney sings barbershop and her group competes internationally and therefore she was visiting the US every year, and she said that the hospitality etc was magnificent when she was there, but of course, that she was amongst birds of a feather, with other singing fanatics hosting. I think if I had a TARDIS and visited all the HF folk I like from the US, I'd have a fabulous time too. But I already have enormous misgivings about our Australian political realities, and the American ones do seem even worse by comparison - not from having lived there, obviously, but just from some of the statistics and some of the policies etc.

Re tax paying, we don't pay a huge amount of tax ourselves because we're downshifters at the low end of the range these days, but even when I was professional and fulltime, I never felt that I was unduly taxed. I just wished that more of my tax money would go to giving elderly people free hip replacements, and that none of it at all would go to giving politicians free helicopter rides with us picking up the tab. :evil: They should pay for their own bloody helicopter. :evil: And all the other public-purse rorting that's so common amongst politicians in Australia, and a lot of which has become "legal" simply because they wrote the legislation to make it so... :evil:

I've got to say, it's lovely to be able to speak off the cuff like I did before and know that you and regular readers of these journals know that it wasn't meant to be offensive (although I imagine a lot of Americans would be terribly offended by what I said, just like a lot of Australians get very offended if I question their holy cows, which as a cultural outsider I'm a bit more aware of). And it's also nice to get the counterpoint which is very informative, and thanks for offering it!  It's really been amazing to be able to discuss quite contentious things and quite large points of disagreement in such a civilised manner, and a very productive and worthwhile process. (And in case you've not noticed, diplomacy isn't my strong suit...too German for that I suppose ;-)). I don't think there's anything quite as informative as talking to people on the ground, just living their lives.


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## bsms

I know I may have overreacted. I did, after all, spend 25 years in the US military. But...

We did flatten the curve. Flattening the curve meant preventing spikes that would overwhelm our medical system (like Italy). Outside of NYC, we did that. Even now, our deaths are on a downward trend and most of our hospitals are not overwhelmed. I don't know what is reported in Australia, but ICUs in Arizona are at 90% capacity. I gather 80-90% is normal, although we dropped to 60% in April as people delayed serious medical care in order to avoid hospitals. Now they are going in, so 90% is probably reasonable. Still, it is rising and so Arizona's Gov is taking some steps. Not all of which I agree with, but he has shut down the bars again. Opening up again means people will be at greater risk of catching it, but NOT opening up at all isn't an option either. We've had record-breaking unemployment due to the virus and that cannot go on until a vaccine is found. Assuming a vaccine is EVER found.

So these are tough issues. Australia, like a lot of islands, had a distinct advantage. Germany may have handled things better. The FEDERATED nature of the UNITED States means individual states continue to have real power, including their own health care. New York did a horrible job. Arizona has totally failed in addressing nursing homes. The Navajo Nation has authority on the reservation. And they have struggled - but that is something Germany didn't face. Both Navajo and Pima Indians (and I apologize but I cannot remember their preferred names) have devastating rates of obesity, diabetes and poverty. So do many large cities. Hispanics, as a group, also tend to be more overweight and also have more inter-generational families (from what I've seen). That may be why Hispanics make up half of Arizona's cases while being 30% of the population.

I won't pretend the US has handled it perfectly. We have many failures. But I suspect our failures are not nearly as great as the foreign press reports. Oddly enough, my sister-in-law is Australian. Married an Australian man, moved there, had two kids, got tired of being beaten up and divorced. The kids are now men and all three LOVE Australia. That said, they were surprised when they visited us some years back. Like the foreign students we've hosted, they found America very different from what they expected.

The virus is one of those out of the blue problems. We've done some good, some bad - but I'd argue that even in NYC, the intentions were good. It isn't just riding horses that is teaching me humility. There are so many challenges we all face, and I'll be darned if I have many answers! Well...I have them, but I suspect many of my answers are wrong! I'm trying to learn from my horses and try to judge others, not by their successes, but by their intentions. Because when I'm honest, I admit I'm pretty clueless about politics.


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## SueC

I didn't see any over-reacting there myself, I thought you were just stating your views forthrightly, same as me.  The Internet is an extraordinary thing (as well as a grubby cesspit, depending where you go) because it's allowed so much person-to-person communication from all over the globe, and to hear on-the-ground stuff from places you don't live yourself, from actual community members rather than reporters / spin doctors (not always synonymous, but often), and even made it possible to be friendly with people where conventionally that should have been difficult, e.g. yours truly pacifist leftie hippie type not getting high blood pressure and conniptions when confronted with someone previously from the (gasp) military who has (gasp, wheeze) flown missions in Afghanistan. How did that happen? I think through this common thread of an ethic of how horses should be approached, with the respect you afford another living thing, not as a machine/object you own - and that's not the same as, for example, liking the same music or breakfast cereal, it's actually a more fundamental thing about respect and humility and intentions. And from that common thread, differences can be discussed in a far more relaxed manner and from this baseline belief about a shared decency.

I think that kind of open dialoguing is so helpful, and actually makes the world feel like a far safer place than when people talk (/snipe) from behind barricades. It gives a hope that people can make a better world by communicating better and looking through each other's eyes a bit more. I've learnt a lot from talking to others, and adjusted my own "database" accordingly. Also from your own contributions! 

You're right that Australia was very lucky: Island, relatively low population, probably a lot of luck at the outset, and our PM(/govt) had just disgraced himself so hugely by not listening to the wildfire experts for the last three years that Australians were seething and he basically was under enormous pressure to defer to the experts this time around - and miracle of miracles, he actually did for once. Huge collective sigh of relief. Of course, we're not at the end of this yet, and there's issues in Melbourne at the moment, and it's likely going to be a marathon, but we're well placed at the moment with regards to increased ICU capacity and busloads of universal testing, so it's unlikely to become overwhelming - though not impossible, if people fatigue of taking precautions. Because exponential growth can take off again at any time if enough of us aren't careful.

I do hope that your country won't see more overwhelmed hospital systems as happened in NY - and in Italy, and Spain, etc. And I hope your curve is flat enough to facilitate this. It just never looked particularly flat to me compared to really flat curves, although it has become less frightening to look at the graphs lately. Here's an updated nice country comparison graphic (in an old article, but the data is updated):

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/infection-trajectory-flattening-the-covid19-curve/

Here's an old article from the Australian Broadcasting Corporation, done by their number-crunchers back in March/April - in comparison mode - so while we were in lockdown here nationally, we were very worried looking at the US data...

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03...19-global-spread-data-explained/12089028?nw=0

They did a nice job explaining statistics and graphics to the general population, plus different factors in spread.

Anyway, it's just nice that the federal government here was actually listening to its health advisors and doing what they said all along, unlike the situation in the UK and US. I honestly didn't expect us to do better because we actually have similar lows in governance at present. And I wish all three of those countries good luck, and some decent leadership for a change (rare commodity these days). When I look at politics, I despair. When I talk to ordinary people, it gives me a lot of hope. Not always, but often.


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## gottatrot

I thought your perspective was interesting, @SueC, not offensive. I've found the same thing, that the U.S. is misrepresented quite a bit and that includes from our own media. For example, we met a German the other day who had been living in the U.S. for a year, and he told us he was surprised that he could travel all around and feel safe. He thought there would be gun violence to worry about. On the OR coast there may be a lot of guns, but not violence. That belongs in big cities where there are gangs and lots of other crime.

Also when we've traveled overseas we've had people tell us they are worried about the people who can't get medical care in the U.S. because of no insurance. That is the biggest misnomer because if a person can't get into a clinic, they can simply walk into an ER and get treatment for anything, anytime. Our laws prevent ERs from turning away anyone who requests medical help, even if it is for a toothache. This is not the most economical way to do things, but for example we will admit homeless people to hospitals for surgeries and all kinds of expensive treatments, and keep them for days and weeks. Then we will get them into social programs to cover the cost if they need to go to long term placement. The biggest barrier we have to placing homeless is that they don't want to live in places where there are rules, so they refuse to be placed or simply leave.

People do have to go medically bankrupt if they have a major catastrophe. My brother-in-law had it happen when he did not have insurance. He didn't have credit for a few years, but found ways around it. Now he owns a huge home on an acre in a nice neighborhood, works as an executive. The very poor, like my M-I-L who had her son severely burned and having to stay in a burn unit for months, have it all written off and continue with their life after the catastrophe as usual. There is no reason to be homeless because of health care bills. When we talk to the homeless we find they are out there because they are running from warrants, have serious drug problems and don't want rehab, serious alcohol problems and don't want rehab, or they have mental health problems that are untreated and they can't be forced into treatment unless they want to go. 

Our homeless issues are massive and ridiculous. "Freedom" is as you say, carried to insane levels. You have the right to do drugs and block up the streets with your garbage, and not treat your mental illness. 

Our country has lots of problems. I would certainly not trust our government to add taxes and put them to work for our best interests. That is why I am against things like universal health care and more social programs. They sound good on paper but historically they have been ways for those in power to skim more money off for their own benefit, giving us less disposable income we can enrich our lives with, while meanwhile not providing good benefits in return. Other countries have been successful with these programs but I seriously doubt we could be with our diverse states and lack of consensus between them. 

I do agree that freedom is not something only Americans have, and it reminds me of people who say we must be in a union at our work because otherwise we wouldn't have health insurance or good pay. I've also worked at non-union hospitals, and we had the same benefits because if they were not competitive they wouldn't have anyone to work for them. Our nursing unions are a joke and people get fired as easily and still lack protection with the union. We pay them quite a bit to not really do anything for us. But people are afraid if we didn't have them we would not have rights.


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## bsms

FWIW, I'm very frustrated with the reporting of COVID issues here in Arizona. The press has convinced a couple we know in their 80s that Arizona is more dangerous now than NYC was at its peak! That isn't close to being true.

The reality is we need to tweak some things in re-opening. The Gov just ordered bars and some outdoor activities that often involve crowding into a small space while outdoors shut down. Our school district has postponed opening. Classes normally begin mid-July here, but that ain't happening. Social distancing will allow class sizes of 10 and that won't work.

It is a genuine challenge to find the right balance. My oldest daughter has stayed employed but may lose her job fixing airliners soon. A nearby restaurant may close after 30 years of crowds. I think a lot of young people are looking at it and deciding they are low-risk for dying, so why not catch it and move on. I'm sympathetic. People want to count on a vaccine but that hasn't happened after decades for many viral infections.

Tucson seems to think we just all need to wear a mask and then it will disappear. I see no data to support that. Masks will not allow us to put 25 kids into a classroom. Masks won't allow restaurants to function. At best, masks provide some small additional degree of protection, and I'm not certain "small" doesn't mean <5%.

But it isn't as if I know the answers, either. I get frustrated with Gov Ducey but we're going to have to feel our way ahead here. Our border with Mexico is not enforced in the best of times. Drugs flow from Mexico up I-19 to I-10, then to Phoenix and eventually LA. That corridor is both high crime and a hotbed of the virus. If we cannot shut it down for drugs after 30 years of trying, we aren't going to be able to do much against the virus going along!

One nice thing about 50 states is that each state can try to adjust for its specific situation. Some will guess better than others and the more successful one (and the bad ones) will provide lessons for the others. I'm thrilled I don't live in California or Oregon right now! Glad I'm a LONG way from New York, too! Even inside Arizona, liberal Tucson is trying different answers than conservative Benson just 20 miles away. I'm more in agreement with Benson (and wish I lived there) but I like more local control. And if either Tucson or Benson gets good results, then other towns and counties can follow the successful one.

Besides, when I look at Washington DC, regardless of party, I think, "_REALLY? These are the best leaders in all of America? Squabbling like first graders?_" Makes me glad the state, county and towns actually have more power dealing with this than Washington DC. But it probably looks confusing to those outside the USA. Heck, it looks pretty confusing to me....

PS: There is a lot I like about how I've been riding Bandit lately, but I'm also feeling more back pain. The injury I had in Jan 2009 never entirely healed. Proper western riding flexes the back to move with the horse but I may need to go back to shorter stirrups and cantering in a half-seat. It would be a good day to ride today but my back is too sore. It seems utterly unfair that we can increase in insight as we age, only to be betrayed by our bodies!


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## whisperbaby22

I rarely butt into these types of conversations, but I do want to add something. Health care in the US means that one must buy health insurance. 

There are all levels of insurance available. In my old age I have gold plated insurance, and am very satisfied with both the coverage and the availability of service.

That's just how we do it here, you are free to get the level of insurance that you need throughout life.

(As a side note, not until this shutdown have I had problems getting service. Hospitals in my area are letting nurses go and rationing care. This is a real problem.)


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## bsms

Did a late morning 3.5 mile run. Got back, showered. Sat down and took my blood pressure. 101 / 58, with a pulse still of 88. I lost 3 lbs even between when I started my run and finished, so three lbs of water - 48 ounces. That is why desert rats like myself shouldn't want really low blood pressure. You need enough that water loss won't make you drop while outside. Normal blood pressure for me now seems to be around 115/75, and I don't think my lifestyle lends itself to going much lower safely.

Skipped riding this morning. Our grandkids are visiting and The Wife wanted to make a shopping run before it got too hot. By the time she got back, it was too hot. For riding. Not for jogging, since that is MY choice for ME. But a bit unfair to Bandit, IMHO.

"I think through this common thread of an ethic of how horses should be approached, with the respect you afford another living thing, not as a machine/object you own - and that's not the same as, for example, liking the same music or breakfast cereal, it's actually a more fundamental thing about respect and humility and intentions. And from that common thread, differences can be discussed in a far more relaxed manner and from this baseline belief about a shared decency." - @SueC

Well said. It is why I won't ask Bandit to carry me when it is this hot out unless I have a good reason for it. And it is that respect for others that horses CAN teach - assuming they have a human willing to learn - that can make them so amazing. Saw this article today and really enjoyed it. It is kind of the same theme:



> Streets raised us. Horses saved us.​
> In 1988, Mayisha Akbar, a successful businesswoman, bought a property, Richland Farms, in the city and formed the Compton Junior Posse as a way to keep kids out of gangs and off the street. It was also to teach them about black cowboy culture. There is a decades-long tradition of black people riding horses on the streets of Compton tied to an even longer heritage of African Americans cowboys.


But it requires someone who is willing to learn from a horse. I think a lot of us on HF can relate. If we are willing, horses can teach us a degree of acceptance and peace many miss out on. To repeat: "*And from that common thread, differences can be discussed in a far more relaxed manner and from this baseline belief about a shared decency.*" - @SueC

Real peace isn't submission to others or demanding others see things your way. Real peace is rooted in mutual respect, which then allows differences to be points of insight instead of conflict. I wish more people could experience how riding can change how you relate to other humans as well.


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> Real peace isn't submission to others or demanding others see things your way. Real peace is rooted in mutual respect, which then allows differences to be points of insight instead of conflict. I wish more people could experience how riding can change how you relate to other humans as well.


GREAT post.

Horses are just good for us. They teach us lessons constantly. I used to lose my temper very often when I first got Amore. The thing about horses is that when you lose your temper, bad things often happen. So it's an instant lesson about how losing your temper is unhelpful and can even be dangerous sometimes. I rarely lose my temper anymore. I've just had too much feedback from horses on the issue. :smile: A couple of days ago I did something stupid. I had Amore's back leg in my arms, and she kept trying to pull away because she wanted to go over to her hay. I lost my temper, and stupidly smacked her. Of course, that spooked her, and she leaped out of my arms, knocking my arm with a hoof in the process. Then I stood there understanding how dumb it was to lose my temper, and even dumber to smack a spooky horse when holding her hind leg. 

Excellent blood pressures too. I wonder about salt in your diet. This was one way I failed for a while as a runner, reading about how salt should be avoided and not realizing how much salt I was losing on some of my long runs. Then drinking a lot of water, I often ended up feeling pretty bad and not understanding why. Of course if I lost sodium from sweat, and then diluted out my blood, my blood sodium level would drop. The healthy body can correct for these things pretty quickly, but I learned finally that it was better to not drink straight water if I'd already lost a lot of sweat. Gatoraide is also too diluted sometimes, and I have drank a liter of Gatoraide after a run and also felt quite ill. My strategy nowadays is that I don't add salt to cooking, and I don't eat a lot of salty foods in my regular diet. But after a run, I will either drink something that has electrolytes in it, or else I will drink water and eat something with sodium, chloride and potassium. It helps me feel replenished instead of dizzy or woozy afterward.


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## bsms

gottatrot said:


> ...I rarely lose my temper anymore. I've just had too much feedback from horses on the issue. :smile:...
> 
> ...This was one way I failed for a while as a runner, reading about how salt should be avoided and not realizing how much salt I was losing on some of my long runs...


I suspect the military tended to reinforce my anger issues. Sometimes a THEATRICAL butt chewing was a good way to get a point across, unlike the more modern approach in the military of leaving a paperwork trail that will follow a young airman instead. But horses have had a huge impact on my anger management. It was SOOOO unproductive to get angry with Mia! It just made her upset, and it really sucked being 0.5-1 mile from home, on an upset and confused mare, who was going to STAY at the boiling point for the next 30 minutes. 

It is simpler with Bandit. He & I both sometimes have flashes of temper, but we both calm down in 30 seconds instead of 30 minutes. Maybe less. He used to worry a lot more so I suspect his previous life, particularly while racing, involved a lot more punishment. If I get angry with him now, he's like, "_Well, I'll count to 5. 1, 2, 3, 4...5. Are you calm now? Can we talk?_"

Salt: I've never bought into the salt is bad for you thing. I sweat more than the rest of my family and I've never associated salt with high blood pressure. I add lots of salt to my food. I have salt tablets available. Doctors used to tell me using salt was affecting my blood pressure, but my current blood pressure strongly suggests they were wrong. Just as they were wrong in telling me I needed a very low-fat, high carb diet to be healthy! I need to avoid any high-glycemic foods. Rice, bread and potatoes are at the top of the list, as are most boxed cereals:

https://www.health.harvard.edu/dise...lycemic-index-and-glycemic-load-for-100-foods

It is sad to think about how many times doctors have encouraged me to eat cereal, or that starches were OK as long as I didn't eat evil, saturated-fat meats! "_You have time for instant oatmeal in the morning! It is good for you!_" Ever look at how much SUGAR is in a packet of instant oatmeal? And of course, married to a Filipina - and having spent a couple of years in Taiwan as a kid - rice has been a big part of my diet. No longer, although I miss both rice and bread! But I'll gladly give them up in exchange for how much better I feel.

BTW - I don't think everyone needs to. My sister does fine eating breads and rice, but she was never fat. I was always the "fat kid". I lost 50 lbs in the 9th grade, but weight issues have followed me my entire life. Up. Down. Up. Down. And even now, many doctors will say my diet is a fad that will kill me.....


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## gottatrot

I think we are all so different, people should pay attention to what makes them feel good, and what works for them. 
My mom has low blood pressure, low cholesterol and is a normal weight. Her doctor said she is slightly anemic, and she avoids red meat so I told her she has no indications of heart disease, so she should eat some lean red meat because she is not getting enough iron in her diet.
Gasp, recommending red meat! I eat lots of carbs, but I am a runner and the type of muscles I have seem to function best with carbs. Somehow my body seems to process them into useful fuel. If I ate carbs and felt bloated and gained weight, I would assume I should avoid carbs and eat other foods.


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## bsms

Posted some of this on @egrogan 's journal, so some of it is addressed to her and her horses:

FWIW, here in southern AZ it has been much hotter than normal - even for a normal Arizona July! I'm wondering if the exceptional heat the last 6 weeks has contributed to our COVID issues, with AC running 24/7 and people AVOIDING the outdoors. Regardless, I either need to get Bandit out by 6:30 or call it quits!

Our last ride, we encountered a coyote (or some coyotes) in the wash. I saw one and Bandit didn't SEE but smelled PREDATOR. I got him to go forward a few steps but he was very uncomfortable, so I backed him up 30 feet and pointed to a spot he would normally consider too steep and too brush-covered to be an acceptable exit. This time? He took one glance and FLEW out of the wash! We then did a dramatic detour around the coyotes (I suspect it was the pack that live here), with lots of flared nostrils, deep breaths and high-stepping. It took 10 minutes for Bandit to settle, which was long for him. But he did, very unlike Mia. And I was riding the saddle completely slick and had no issues as we flew out and then pranced, which is good to know.

It is also worth knowing that with the proper motivation, Bandit can handle much rougher climbs than he normally considers acceptable! He went thru that brush like Secretariat on the home stretch!

After getting back I took my sweaty T-shirt off to do some chores. NOT SMART. The chores took longer than I expected and I've spent the last couple of days with a bright red torso. Too sore to ride, but not a big loss since it has been HOT even at 7 AM! 11+ on the UV scale every day. It takes a lot for a Tucson native to complain the heat is brutal. It is 5-10 degrees cooler here than Tucson but temps like this are rare. Except they have been almost every day the last 6 weeks.

BTW - a really good thing for me about riding solo is I don't have to limit our rides to what my wife can handle. So Bandit & I do a lot more cantering more off-trail cruising around. Another positive is Bandit is learning to trust me more, although our partnership means he has the right of refusal. I think back to my time with Mia and how so many folks here on HF told me to never dismount, NEVER accept her refusing. A big part of our problem, looking back, was rooted in how deep-seated her fears were and the advice to "_never let her win_"! :evil:

It has helped to have riders on HF encourage the idea that a horse can say, "_Not today. Sorry, but my guts are twisting inside. Need some extra help today!_" How can a horse learn to trust someone who has no respect for what the horse is saying?

I love hearing about the distances others go. Wish I could match them but with no water and morning temps often breaking 95 by 9 AM....well, I get pooped even if Bandit doesn't! I refuse to take water for me because there is none for him and I need to understand that he gets thirsty too. The flies at least are gone. I think they have all fried and gone to HEdoubleL, and I'm sure most horses and riders agree that is where they belong!

It is a harsh land here. I love it for what it is, but it isn't easy.








On the plus side, we get some good sunsets and sunrises. My wife took these sun rise pictures a couple of days ago:

















Probably be a couple of days before I'll feel OK to ride out. Might get a little arena work in tomorrow. Was hoping to today but woke up redder and sorer than I wanted. It's been 20+ years since I last got a real sunburn. Won't mind if this is my last one!


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## bsms

Finally got a short ride in today. My sunburn is now peeling, and it itches but doesn't hurt to ride. We've finally had the monsoon start! Two afternoon thunderstorms in the last two days!

That meant things looked STRANGE today! Things have been washed to places they were not before. Sand drifts in the wash have changed! And everything SMELLS strange. So Bandit was on alert. I went helmetless. It's a personal thing. I tend to push Bandit harder to "just do it" if I'm wearing a helmet, and that usually doesn't make things better. So went without. He spooked over a rabbit, which earned him a cussing from me. He didn't notice a big snake sunning himself. I don't THINK it was a rattlesnake. I think it is a non-poisonous snake that LOOKS like a rattlesnake. But I didn't ride close enough to find out.

I was late getting out so we were both sweating. Bandit looked for mesquite beans to eat. One nice thing: There were some puddles of standing water. For the first time in 5 years, Bandit got to DRINK during a ride! Mia would have avoided the puddles like holy terror, but Bandit splashed his feet in and then stopped to drink. 

On the way back, while I was on foot, I took a couple of photos. In one, Bandit is pursuing mesquite beans. In the other, a tack shot while he was eating some grass. When he leans forward, it lifts the rear of the saddle. Eating is a high priority for Bandito.

















Apart from a couple of mild spooks, he did fine today. Was a little tense but never actually balked. Relaxed as we headed home. Both of us were sweating but it was from heat and humidity, not his nervousness.



> "The Gophersnake can be active around the clock when conditions are favorable. It hibernates during the cold months of late fall and winter. It is primarily a ground-dweller but is capable of climbing. When threatened it often raises its head and neck into a striking posture, hisses loudly, flattens and broadens the head, and vibrates the tail. When exhibiting this behavior it is often mistaken for a rattlesnake."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gophersnake (Pituophis catenifer) - Reptiles of Arizona


We were 20-30 feet away and I didn't feel a need to examine closely. But I think this is what was sunning himself. I didn't see a rattle and he just didn't seem like a rattlesnake. He did choose to move off even as we were moving away...not very aggressive. Which was fine by me. I have this mental image of me getting dumped, then lifting my head to see a rattler a few feet away. It isn't a nice mental image....


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## SueC

Still catching up. Wonderful sunrise photos!  Sorry you got sunburnt - I find slathering on aloe vera gel really soothing at the red stage and the peel stage, when that happens (and it happens at least once every summer when I accidentally forget to put on sunscreen after wearing it religiously...)


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## bsms

Sunburn is finally healing. Bandit was tense today. Don't know why. There was more wind than we usually ride in, but I don't think that was it. He didn't balk or even spook, but his back was tense the entire ride and he FELT worried. Exited the wash in a spot that looked good from the wash, but getting to a trail after we left required poor Bandit to do S-turns almost every step. Just nasty cactus all over, including some tall Teddy Bear Cholla - one that really scares me.








They are also called "Jumping Cholla" because the tiniest graze will break off a chunk and the barbed spines will then work their way in deep. They are NOT fun to pull out and prone to infection - based on my one time years ago jogging.

I may go back to the Abetta. The leather saddle has some real good points, but it doesn't inspire confidence that I'll stay on regardless the way the Abetta does. I was very conscious today of sliding around in the slick seat. I either need to add sheepskin again or return to the Abetta. The bigger saddle may protect Bandit's back more, but sliding off would damage my back far more! And it isn't as if Bandit and I are competing with anyone doing anything...


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## bsms

Got an hour of riding in on the Abetta today. Did 15 minutes at the longer stirrup setting, then 30 at the shorter, then 15 at the longer. Honestly? Not sure it makes much difference. The shorter stirrup seems better for fast work and the long more comfortable for strolling, but neither difference is huge. I just can't help over-analyzing everything. But yeah, both work fine with some minor tweaking in how I ride. I set them shorter again when we got back. We did a fair bit of cantering today and it felt smoother in the canter and easier on my butt when Bandit would switch to a high-stepping trot.

I read an article recently that was discussing how to weight one seat bone more than the other and how the horse is supposed to respond...and THAT seems like gross over-analyzing to me! I guess it makes a difference for some types or riding? If I bought a horse trained for it, the first thing I'd have to do is teach him to ignore me!

BTW - one thing I really noticed about the Abetta: *When it is time to remove the saddle, a 15 lb saddle removes SOOOOO much nicer than a 30 lb saddle!*

My oldest daughter's divorce was finalized thhis week. Long story and ugly, but the end result is she WILL have joint custody and joint decision-making authority by 1 November. She is continuing her weekly counseling. She finds it very helpful still to understand what her marriage had done to her mind.

One option my wife & I are considering is turning our house over to her sometime this fall so she can have her time with the kids in the same school district. She would take care of the dogs and horses in exchange for living here rent free while we would go rent an apartment for 3-6 months in either the Prescott area (NW AZ) or Richfield UT: 








It would mean some out of pocket expense for us, but we could decide if we were willing to commit to moving to a new area without buying a house there. By the end, my daughter would have time to get her finances straightened out and look at getting her own home, and we would know if we were ready and willing to move from the desert - or if what we already have here is better than what we would get elsewhere.


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## egrogan

Glad your daughter is getting some closure @*bsms* , and very generous of you to offer up the house. Sounds like your road trip adventure could be good for everyone!

I still don't know how you navigate around the cacti on a regular basis. Pretty, but nerve wracking! Still one of my favorite photos from our southwest road trip last fall:


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## carshon

I am with @egrogan. We have stinging nettles but I bet those cacti hurt worse than the nettles. And the nettles make some horses go completely AWOL


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## bsms

Bandit does the navigating. I indicate I'd like to turn to 30 degrees off his nose, he looks, then HE takes us through. One place we use regularly, including this morning, the gap is maybe 8 inches wide where his 5 inch wide feet need to go through. He's always made it without getting poked.

That is why trail riding is so different from arena riding. If I tried to direct Bandit's steps using "rein effects", or with my leg and rein, it couldn't happen. Certainly not at a fast walk. But all I do is say, "_See this place? I think we can squeeze through._" If he agrees...we do. If he doesn't? We don't try it.

It is also why I get frustrated when people tell me horses need humans so they will "walk straight". Bandit not only can walk a very straight narrow line without my direction. He can walk a very narrow TWISTING line without my direction - apart from, "_How about here?_" Or like today cantering down the wash. I've jogged that stretch. I've nearly twisted an ankle there. There are rocks just under the sand as well as on top making the footing awkward - but he's cantered there now a bunch of times without any sign of a hiccup.

Or a few weeks ago when we got stuck. He waited for me to figure out we were stuck. When I indicated I wanted to reverse course, he pivoted in a spot where I don't know how he did it - but he did, and then took us down a short but steep incline, all without finding it remarkable. The sheer grace and athleticism of horses astonishes me. Almost as much as I'm astonished at humans who think they can improve the horse's agility and balance!

All we can truly do, IMHO, it be a stable and a predictable load while the horse does his magic. If I then act appreciative of Bandit's Magic Show...well, that is all Bandit asks! We. Team. He's a valued teammate. Respected, even. Which is enough to make him happy.

Nearly a hundred years ago, Etienne Beudant wrote:


> The horse is the sole master of his forces; even with all of our vigor, by himself, the rider is powerless to increase the horse's forces. Therefor, it is for the horse to employ his forces in his own way, for himself to determine the manner of that employment so as to best fulfill the demands of his riders. If the rider tries to do it all, the horse may permit him to do so, but the horse merely drifts, and limits his efforts to those which the rider demands. On the contrary, if the horse knows that he must rely on himself, he uses himself completely, with all of his energy. -Horse Training Outdoors and High School


The longer I ride with Bandit, the more convinced I am that it is true.


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## SueC

bsms said:


> My oldest daughter's divorce was finalized this week. Long story and ugly, but the end result is she WILL have joint custody and joint decision-making authority by 1 November. She is continuing her weekly counseling. She finds it very helpful still to understand what her marriage had done to her mind.


This is such excellent news!  I was hoping that she wouldn't be cheated out of custody. It's also great to hear she has ongoing support, both professional and from family!

And that temporary move sounds like a good plan that would help you decide what to do while also giving your daughter some breathing space and help getting back on her feet properly.


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## bsms

Took my camera when jogging yesterday. Thought I'd photograph what I call "cactus bombs" - different types:

















They are very hard to see, particularly from the back of a horse! This one is easy to see, though - a cholla, taken at eye level, which is my case is close to where Bandit's back is located. It tops out at where my shoulder is when riding:








And finally, the difference between an ATV trail and the path Bandit is slowly creating by using it as an alternative route:








This time, I got a good look at the gap Bandit threads. It is actually about 12 inches across from needles to needles. He has never been poked although he drags my leg against the thorns of the mesquite. But if he didn't drag my leg across, he couldn't get his feet into the opening. And that is why we need to make MUTUAL decisions before proceeding!

I call this one "Canter Heaven". It is by FAR the best place for perhaps 100 yards of canter. Where it disappears, though, is where some big rocks are. Doesn't get better than this, though, anywhere near me. It has almost become an "Auto-canter" spot:


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## bsms

I'll add, though, that Canter Heaven is a tough spot to jog. The sand looks very smooth but it is very inconsistent. One spot will be totally firm and the next footfall gives way underneath me. Maybe Bandit does better because he has 4 feet at work? I've come close to falling when jogging here! I assume a beach is similar?

Regardless, since we've been going solo, he's started to perk up at this stretch in anticipation. I have to tell him if I don't want a canter.

Until going out solo together - a term I like - almost all of our cantering was in an arena. No one else WANTS to canter with us in the desert. Well...not the riders anyways. A couple of differences that might be relevant when someone talks about their horse "running away" - which Mia most definitely did, but Bandit does NOT:

1 - He puts a lot more power into cantering straight ahead than when constantly turning in an arena. It feels a lot more aggressive, but it isn't. It just means he has somewhere to go!

2 - It is much easier to ride, actually. Much easier to get in the rhythm and much smoother. So both 'wilder' and yet easier.


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## bsms

Did a short ride today. Used a helmet in anticipation of riding next to the road. Ended up NOT doing that. Oh well. At 8 AM and a 40 minute ride had sweat dripping into my glasses. Pre-ride - Bandit decided he wanted to join me in the selfie. Honestly? He takes a better picture than me:








You can see the housing area where I live from here, and also see why one doesn't go from A to B in the Sonoran Desert:








We got stuck twice today. Both times Bandit had to do a tight pivot to get us back to an area where we could ride. At one spot, he had to push us both thru dead branches while stepping over a belly-high plant. A few years ago? Not a chance! Today? Yawn...

Some people ride next to mirrors to see how they are doing. At 8AM on an Arizona morning, we kind of have that too:








Bandit likes some contact when he is nervous, but he was relaxed the entire day today. At one point he initiated a trot, then turned it into a canter for 50 yards, then back to trotting for 50 yards. OK by me. He then felt he had worked enough in this heat and we walked the rest of the ride. And kept the reins slack about 99% of the time.

The folks on this thread are adults so I don't mind posting this. Ever hear the phrase "Tissing like a racehorse"? Neither have I, but HF doesn't approve of putting a P into the P, so to speak. But we were almost at the end of the ride and Bandit spelled relief with a four letter word beginning with P. We sometimes refer to it as "Watering the Desert". If I smoked, I could have rolled a cigarette while he went...and went....and went....








Think the leather saddle with a sheepskin seat is the best overall combination, even if it feels like lead weights when taking it off. Bandit acts very comfortable in it. The sheepskin IS like "Butt Velcro" and the slick leather sides means any weight not in my seat WILL flow into the stirrups. There is just NOTHING there to allow any grip with the knee:








It has some faults but Bandit rode great in it today and I felt both secure AND able to feel good at trots and cantering.


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## carshon

My entire family rides mares. It took over a year for my husbands horse to be comfortable enough on a trail to urinate. The longest she ever held it was over 12 hours when we trailered to WI for a Poker Run. When we got home and she went and went and went and went. My horse will go almost immediately after we hit the trail and is very lady like and will move into the tall grass off of the trail to do her business. She has now taught my daughters young horse to do the same. But yes there are days when I could get a book out and read a few pages as the stream goes on and on.

Great posts these last couple of days. I also ride with a sheepskin saddle cover - we call it my bear skin as it is died a deep brown, I started using it when my hips started hurting and found that it helped keep me centered in a saddle seat that is just a little too roomy for me.


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## lb27312

@bsms - where did you get your sheepskin if you don't mind me asking? Or you've probably always had it.... I really think I want to get one. I've looked but it's so hard to find the right one.


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## bsms

Search for JMS Sheepskin. Riding Warehouse has them in multiple variations:

https://www.ridingwarehouse.com/JMS...in_Saddle_Cushion_-_Std/descpage-JMSEWSC.html

Jeffers has a smaller selection but a little cheaper:

https://www.jefferspet.com/products/sheepskin-seat-cushion-western-black

The company's website:

https://jmsproductsusa-com.3dcartst...de-Merino-Sheepskin-by-JMS-Products_p_26.html

There is a bigger version for western:








It spreads my legs more than I like and makes me feel "locked in"....which might be good on a spooky horse. More than what I need or like for daily riding, particularly since Bandit seems pretty trustworthy.


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## lb27312

@bsms - Thank you so much! I appreciate your time....


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## bsms

Oldest daughter's apartment lease ends 1 September. They are very interested in moving to our house. They are happy to take care of the horses, repaint the house (it needs it!) and do some electrical work. They both do electrical work on airliners and both also enjoy doing home improvement projects. They would like permission to ride the horses. I'll get a chance to check on his riding ability later this month.

Part of me wants to stay in my comfort zone, but we may need something like this to pry us out of of our 5 bedroom house. It is way too big for us. I do NOT want to be in my 70s and still trying to maintain it. Tentative plan is to go look for a place to rent in Utah in August, then move up there with Jack. 

My daughter has a young dog and Sammy the dog gets along fine with him. Sammy is 6. Jack is 12. He's starting to get arthritic and his eyes are getting kind of cloudy. When my daughter's 2 year old dog visits, Jack prefers to curl up next to our feet and ignore him. He's patient with the kids and kind of likes them....but gets tired fast. We talked last night and all agreed Jack needs to stay with us. He'll still play hard with Sammy but increasingly seems to be doing so out of duty instead of pleasure.

If it happens - big IF - then we'll be horseless over the winter. That will leave a hole in my life. Maybe not so much for my wife. I'm certain I'll miss Bandit more than Bandit will miss me. I like having horses in the yard. The three of them will always have a home, but it might differ from their life right now.

And of course, we might decide Utah is too darn cold and realize we WANT to return to the Sonoran Desert. That would be worth knowing too. But it increasingly looks like this could be a year of transition for us.

BTW - put out the saddle to get ready to ride this morning. 10 minutes later, looked at the clouds and decided we might get rained on. Put things back. Bandit & I don't believe in riding in the rain. Since we use dry streambeds for our trails, that might be prudent. It started raining a few minutes after I got things inside and may continue for the rest of the day. Temps have dropped to 70 degrees and the forecast now calls for 2 days of intermittent rain. Two days ago, the forecast called for dry weather all this week.

Weather, polling and politics are fields where there are no employment consequences for wrong answers. :shrug:


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## carshon

Wow! I am happy for your daughter - and you (I think) moving is hard but as you said you may need to test the waters


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## gottatrot

Change can help keep life more interesting. I think it would be good to rent and see how you like a new area. That is what we are doing too. 

Well, it is a lot of work organizing and moving from a 2700 sq ft house to a 1300 sq ft rental. It involves trips to the thrift store, dump and of course my truck broke down last week and is sitting in a shop waiting for a diagnosis. 

Plus my new job keeps letting me know about things I must do that are tricky to fit in my schedule. But we are still thinking a change will be good.

No time to ride at the moment but sitting outside watching the horses graze while on the forum for a moment has been very nice.

I'll be interested to hear about your life changes.


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## bsms

Got a short, relaxed ride in on Bandit today. Neither of us felt ambitious and it was getting hot fast, so we strolled thru the desert for 35 minutes and called it quits. Here is a picture of my Abetta saddle with two arrows. The blue arrow points to the leather strap added to the D-ring to prevent the rear of the stirrup strap from catching. It only needs to be able to slide about a half-inch past for me to use my legs any way I want.

The red arrow points to a new change. The Abetta doesn't have a good way to carry odds and ends with it. I bought a cheap but long belt and ran it behind the cantle, from rear cinch rings. Now I can carry a multi-tool on the cantle of the saddle. Multi-tools are great for pulling out spines. They also have tools that can double as a hoof pick and even a small file. I like having one but don't like wearing one on my belt. Now my saddle has a belt! 








We will start looking for a place to rent next week. We're centering our search on Prescott and Flagstaff. We would prefer to find a place in the Prescott area, but Flagstaff gets a LOT of snow. If we could handle a winter there, we could handle it anywhere in Utah!



> "Snowstorms of over five inches a day normally occur seven times a year. Major blizzards that dump ten inches or more in one day typically show up once or twice a year. Storms this severe can descend on Flagstaff anytime from November to April...."
> 
> https://www.currentresults.com/Weat...nowfall-totals-snow-accumulation-averages.php


On average, about 100 inches of snow a year! Prescott - about 70 miles away by air, 95 by road - gets 13" a year on average. Winslow AZ is about 45 miles east of Flagstaff. It averages 7 inches a year. My wife is a bit skeptical about living in Winslow, but it is only about 45 minutes on I-40 to the main shopping area of Flagstaff. That is about how long it takes us to go to stores in Tucson. All of that is horsey country, and any of those places would allow us to drive to southern Utah in 4 hours.

Target date to try to find a place to rent and move is mid-September. By the end of this school year - if it ever starts! - our oldest daughter ought to have stabilized her life. If we like it up north, we'll put our house on the market next spring. If we don't? We'll move back, put the house on the market, and look for homes in the Thatcher / Safford area: about 15,000 people between the two of them and normally less than an inch of snow a year.


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## egrogan

Go for the 100” of snow!! :cheers: It will be an adventure, and you won’t even have to break ice off water buckets.

I was thinking of you today listening to a horse travel podcast about riding in the southern Arizona desert. The description of cactus riding gave me renewed appreciation for you and Bandit out there!
https://rideclimb.com/podcast/southern-arizona-trail-riding/


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## bsms

I've got mixed feelings about posting outside the journal threads, but did it again today on a thread discussing twist. As I thought about it, I think I hit upon what I've learned from playing around with different saddles this summer. 

-----------------------------------​
Saddles too wide for women. Seems odd to me since women have wider hips proportionally than men. Did a search and found this discussing saddles on bicycles and it makes a lot of sense to me:


> Pressure mapping has certainly made for some big leaps in saddle design and the research and development process. Can you talk us through any of the more surprising findings?
> 
> KR: Using pressure mapping equipment consistently for over five years now has allowed us to understand small differences in pressure that may have big effects on the rider. For instance, if the gradient of pressure to the outside of the bone structure is very steep, this is an indication that the rider’s bone structure is running off the edges of the saddle. Think of a bright red hot spot that immediately becomes a cooler, darker colour to the outside of the bone, rather than showing a gradual change of colour.
> 
> Your first impression as the researcher might be, “The saddle is obviously too narrow, and it needs to be wider to support that bone structure.” However, sometimes a wide saddle forces the rider to sit too far forward on the saddle, and therefore the ischium of the pelvis runs off the sides. Sometimes switching to a narrower saddle allows the rider to sit on the back of the saddle as the saddle is intended, and the rider therefore gets the proper support he or she is looking for.
> 
> Due to this research and the designs that have followed, it seems like an increasing number of riders are opting for unisex saddles, or saddles marketed at the opposite gender. Can you provide some insight into why gender specific saddles might not be so specific after all?
> 
> MG: Paraic McGlynn has a really good quote on this: “Your [rump] doesn’t have eyeballs.” Your pelvis really just cares about how it is supported.
> 
> We’ve found through testing that as a pelvis gets wider, it needs different things for saddle design. The thing is, it doesn’t matter if it is a wide female pelvis or a wide male pelvis, they both need the same support and soft tissue relief. The biggest difference is that the shallower pubic arch on a woman necessitates better soft tissue relief sooner, but there is no reason a more pointed male pubic arch wouldn’t benefit from the same thing.
> 
> KR: For men and women, the fundamental goal of the saddle is the same: to distribute pressure to the bone structure and relieve pressure from the soft tissues. This means that men and women alike benefit from well-designed “cut out” saddles.
> 
> While the pelvic structure for women tends to be wider and shallower (front to back) than the average male pelvis, the shape of the bone structure for both vary greatly. Therefore, the shape, width and material properties of the saddle are the most important factors that affect whether or not a particular saddle supports the rider properly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.sbs.com.au/cyclingcentral/article/2017/01/24/saddle-problems-we-chat-two-experts​


I've been using two western saddles intermittently this summer - a wide leather one and a much narrower Abetta:








In addition, I used the leather one both bare and with a sheepskin cover, that changes its shape underneath me:

















At 5'8" and 150 lbs, I'm a narrow-frame runner type guy. But which saddle works depends. Each has advantages and disadvantages based on how I ride. The plain leather works best when I ride "on my pockets". The Abetta works better if I "perch" more in the saddle, using a Forward Seat. The sheepskin configuration is in between. In the drawing below, think of it as:

Sheepskin / Abetta / Slick Seat / Never








People MARKET saddles as best for women or men, but my experience is it depends on the individual human and how they choose to ride. FWIW, I actually like all three variations I've tried this summer. I suspect the Abetta may remain my #1 choice, as much because of its 15 lb weight vs the 30 lbs of the leather saddle. But the leather saddle can be more comfortable when riding, with the sheepskin version giving me my most "all-purpose" saddle. The slick leather might work well for an all-day ride in the mountains, though. Same rump. Same horse. Different saddles shapes - all usable.

---------------------------------------​
If we move north, my wife and I are likely to change our focus on riding. I may continue to ride regularly just putzing down dirt roads, but we may look at our objective being trailering the horses to the mountains several times a month during warmer weather and riding for 2-4 hour rides in places where the horses can stop and eat or drink. If so, the slick leather saddle may work better for me. For now? I have to admit the 15 lb Abetta is a lot nicer to carry out, and does fine for both Bandit and I on our typical 1 hour rides.


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## bsms

Home update: Spent time in Prescott last week. The timeshare we have in Sedona was packed. 100% occupancy, every night. Seems folks in California who want to get out are finding it tough to do in California, so they are coming to Arizona in droves to get out! They said they had been at 100% occupancy at least 5 days each week for months.

Anyways...we like the Prescott / Flagstaff area but we also think we can ASSUME we can deal with the snow and colder weather. But we also want to be closer to our daughter while she tries to get her life together. We still want to work in some more traveling. And homes to rent in the Prescott area were like hen's teeth. So we decided to rent something locally.

Turned out homes in southern Arizona are also hard to find. Like homes to buy. I guess folks are fleeing the big cities and California and property values and rental all across Arizona are feeling the pinch. More by accident than anything else, a realtor in Benson my wife called had just rented the houses on the market - but had a home just come up, not listed yet, for rent. West side of Benson. 1700 sq feet - bigger than we really want. OK fenced in yard. New home, actually. Rental price about $400 less than we were looking at paying closer to Tucson. We're going to go today to put a deposit down. It is less than a 30 minute drive from our house so we can come over and ride several times a week. We can take both dogs with us. Let my daughter try to figure out her new family life for a time, while she also promises to repaint the interior of the house and change out the appliances that need it. She also likes doing plumbing work and we may do some bathroom upgrades.

Benson has about 5,000 people. It will give us a chance to experience life in a small town - by our standards - Tucson has been spreading and is starting to push into the area we live. If we like it, there are horse properties in the area. If not, but we are happy to live in a town of 5,000, it will open up where we would consider moving to across Arizona. Tentative goal now is to get our house ready to put on the market by spring. If it sells by summer, we'll put the horses in one of the local stables and then will know our budget for finding a new home - and maybe know more about where we would consider acceptable.

Also, I think we've agreed we need to get a pickup that can tow more than 4,000 lbs so we can get both a decent horse trailer AND some sort of 16' foot travel trailer. The wife NEEDS to be able to get out for a few days at a time, several times a year, and NOT in a hotel. Like me, she prefers to be in OUR stuff - even if a tiny trailer - than in a room being used by strangers all year long. This would also open up our chances to spend time in more places around Arizona as we look. We may also change our focus in riding. Less of "A daily ride" and more of a 3 times a month "Go somewhere nice and ride". Bandit and Trooper have demonstrated they can go a month without being ridden, and then ride as if they had been ridden every day for a month. Even is we stay in the general area - Benson, or even return to this house and stay here a few more years - there are a lot of areas within an hour's drive where we could ride for 3-4 hours, the horses could get water while riding, the ground would be softer on their feet, etc.

It is a time for change for us. Kids are definitely out of the house (although one is about to live in it for the next school year). We're both retired now. And we need, as many couple do, to figure out how we want to live AS A COUPLE versus as parents. It is a bigger change in attitude then we had realized. But an opportunity as well!

PS: An area 30 minutes from either where we are now or Benson:

















Very different from here:


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## knightrider

These plans are incredibly exciting, and I am excited for you!

Thirteen years ago, we decided to move out of our too-large farmhouse and too-large farm to get something more manageable. Also the city had encroached on our farm so that we were surrounded by suburbia. And the taxes tripled.

Neither of us had ever lived way out in the country with only a small town 20 minutes away, so we were leery of such a big decision. We have never regretted it. I thought I would miss the farm, which was in our family for 4 generations . . . but the farm area I miss didn't exist any more. I surely didn't miss the traffic, the trespassers looking for hallucinogenic mushrooms, and the no-places-to-ride-anymore.

I wish you every success in your new decisions!


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## gottatrot

The changes sound like they will be very positive. It is nice you will still be able to see the horses and ride. Our new town is 8,000 people and we like it so far.


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## bsms

For other reasons, just visited Willcox AZ. No mask requirement in Willcox. Ate at a BBQ place. Social distancing was enforced, but it felt good to eat BBQ and see FACES in the place. Not trying to push a political view. But I'm not sure I realized how much I missed sitting in a restaurant and seeing FACES. Spaced out, well-separated, but FACES! Felt like waiving to total strangers....:wave:

We visited Safford & Thatcher the other day and were underwhelmed. Nothing WRONG with those places, but nothing really struck a chord with us.

Snowflake, Az (4,500), St. Johns, Az (4,000) and others might go on the investigation list IF we decide Benson is a good size for what we want.

BTW - rode Bandit this morning. He was fine. Stumbled a little while cantering in one uneven, somewhat rockier spot. I was being a wimp with one hand resting on the horn, and that hand/arm went rigid when he stumbled, keeping my shoulders back. He got his front end under him without issue and continued on. Being a wimp isn't always a bad thing. Won't win me any points, but no one was looking and I'm sure Bandit doesn't care. Kind of at the "Whatever makes us happy" stage in my riding life. Cantered again a little later and realized I was NOT touching the horn - because it was smoother and my subconscious wasn't nagging me? Was wearing a helmet also. Hmmm.....

Also BTW - Had a good run in yesterday afternoon (in 103 heat) and my legs were super tight. So I dropped the stirrups to the lower setting and rode 20 minutes. In that position, the stirrups are mostly an aid for mounting. Once loosened up, stopped, raised the stirrups, and finished the rest of the ride with the higher setting. Doesn't make much difference at a walk or canter, but trots are easier at the higher setting and the only thing it really costs me is the chance to stretch my legs/hips to the max. If Bandit gives a rat's rear, he hides it well!


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## SueC

Wow, did you see the record minima in those two localities? Positively Siberian! Very pretty scenery though, and there's electric blankets... I'm assuming houses in places like that are superinsulated, so you don't have to pay thousands in heating costs? ...now I know why there's a lot of strawbale houses being built in the American deserts (see it all the time in owner builder publications). Perfect for dampening out the diurnal variation etc. Daytime sun to do much of your winter heating...


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## bsms

@SueC, during our visit to Prescott a few weeks ago, we also spent some time in the pine forests around Flagstaff. I'm NOT fond of snow...but I'll admit, the Ponderosa Pine forests are beautiful enough to almost make up for it! And Arizona has the largest continuous Ponderosa Pine forest in the world. OK, I know we had to narrow it down to one species to make that boast....but it is a part of Arizona I often forget. As long as they had a good shelter & ample food, I don't think the horses would mind taking the winter off.....:rofl:








And who need electric blankets when you're married? :cheers:


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## SueC

bsms said:


> And who need electric blankets when you're married? :cheers:


Well, this is true, and then you also have an immersion heater! :winetime:


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## bsms

FINALLY got a ride in!

Been working on moving since 31 Aug. Things are finally steady enough that I drove 27 miles back to the old house and rode Bandit. He wanted to lollygag along and so I pushed him to trot fairly often. His fast trot is choppy so I often pushed him to slip up another gear and canter. I was using the longer stirrup setting and it is possible to stand in the stirrups while he trots - and I did so a number of times - but at that setting a canter is much more comfortable to ride.

We DID walk and stopped at times for him to munch on weeds. I wondered how he would behave after almost a month off. I was riding without a helmet but....he rode like we had been riding the last 6 days in a row. No calmer but more importantly not any more nervous.

Took him off trail toward a house by a paved road. We hadn't gone that way before - it tends to be rocky and why ride toward a house? We went off trail to minimize the rocks. He decided to hop a tiny gully at one point and then decided to canter on. I slowed him because the area also has a lot of cactus bombs. But we did about 50 yards at a canter off trail and he was actually doing fine.It left me wondering if I should encourage him to do that more often. The challenge is that you can easily run into a dead end in the desert, and off course, the cactus bombs:








But HE was doing a good job of handling things so....maybe?

He tensed a little as we got within 30 yards of the house but he still went forward. Just trotted a few steps, walked a few, trotted a few, etc. I decided the short trots were acting like a pressure relief valve for him so I ignored them.

I tried shortening the stirrups but went back to the longer one. A bit awkward for trots but I can't brace against the stirrups and it forces me to concentrate on balance. Also tried a style of mounting I had been taught when I took some lessons in 1977 ( :eek_color: ). I prefer to stand closer to the rear, arm extended to hold some mane, and pull myself forward. That makes it a more forward motion and seems to keep the saddle from having sideways pressure.

But the way I had been taught was to grab some mane with my rein hand while facing to the rear, standing at the front leg. Twist the stirrup, put the foot in, then mount in a vertical pull while swirling around 180 degrees while going up. You keep the near rein short and the idea is the twirling motion means if the horse moves, he'll tend to turn into you (short nearside rein) and you just keep rolling around. Can't show a video because I've never seen anyone do this. The cowboy who taught it said it was a good way to mount a horse who was likely to take off. Hmmmm.

The good news is that it is easier to get the foot into the stirrup and the swirling motion worked fine. Bandit took a few steps - I've started ignoring it if he moves as I mount up - but it felt fine. But it also tended to pull the saddle more to the side than the back-to-front movement I've worked on. But the stirrup leg stays next to the horse the whole time and it gives it more power into mounting up.

Either way, it says something about Bandit that I felt comfortable trying something odd on our first ride in a month, out solo, in the desert, without a helmet. :thumbsup:

PS: Not sure what Littauer would think about my stirrup setting. It makes it impossible to ride "stirrup-centric". But it keeps me well forward in the saddle and Bandit & I both seem happy, and I like to think VS Littauer would understand a happy horse and happy rider.


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## tinyliny

At first I thought you were describing mounting bareback; holding the main, standing at the shoulder, facing the horse's rear, and then swinging your leg to help you swing up.
Back when I was 18, I could do it (just barely). Now? geddoudaheah


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## bsms

Actually, that IS a similar motion:






In some ways it is similar to a commonly taught method:






Except you don't hop around to face forward. You start upward while facing the rear and twist around as you go up. It is easier to get the foot high enough when your foot is naturally close to the stirrup and not on the far side of your body. And it is easier to push up when the stirrup and leg form a straight line. But it seems to pull sideways more than a rear to front motion that only incidentally involves throwing a leg over the horse's back.








The black line represents the movement I generally try for. The red line represents the motion I often see taught in books or in videos. The blue is more along the lines of what I was taught in 1977.


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## bsms

Drove 25 miles south of the house we are renting and visited Ft Huachuca. At 4500 feet elevation and on the foothills of the Huachuca Mtns, the weather was beautiful and so are the mountains. Told the wife if they would sell me a house on the fort, I'd take it.








The purple road going north out of Huachuca City and the gold one going north out of Tombstone intersect in Benson AZ. A couple of Internet pictures of the fort:

















Huachuca City (pop 1800) sometimes has horse property come open at reasonable prices. It is greener than the Vail AZ/Benson AZ area. But even if we bought near Benson, Fort Huachuca is only 25 minutes on a little traveled highway. Sierra Vista (pop 45,000) is less than 10 miles away from Huachuca City. My youngest daughter would appreciate the fact that it is only 23 miles from Tombstone:






Not a bad recreation of the shootout, although Doc got 3 shots out of a double barrel shotgun....:shrug:


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## gottatrot

Fort Huachuca looks beautiful. Wow.

The way you tried mounting is how I've always done it.
I think it is helpful for short people with short stirrups and more lower body than upper body strength. Also for horses that run off. 

Facing forward if the horse takes off, you do the splits if you didn't get off the ground. Facing the horse does not work if your stirrup length is short because your toe is into the horse's belly. Facing the rear, the horse running forward only gives you impetus to push off and stand in the stirrup faster. 

In general I can at least make it to belly over position, which worst case I have ridden at the canter several strides while timing my leg swing to get seated. Then it's only a matter of fishing for the off stirrup while gaining control.

Shortening the near rein is good, yes, but at times the inward spin if the horse really takes off can be difficult. I have ended up nearly over the other side. So I usually tend to try for a straighter trajectory.

I remember getting on Hero on a narrow path with low hanging branches. Foot barely in the stirrup, Nala disappeared out of sight around a corner. Hero took off at a canter as I was swinging up so I rode belly but couldn't sit up because the branches were so low at the high part of the canter.
Eventually made it to home position, got my stirrups, pulled up my horse. Whew.

I see a lot of people mount without holding onto the reins. I would have lost a lot of horses that way or else if I managed to get aboard, would have found myself with stirrup at a gallop. Lol.


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## gottatrot

Forgot to say cons of that mounting style include the saddle slip you noted, especially on round horses. Also it is not good to twist around at the knee as you are rising, or you can strain joints or muscles (I have). Turning at the stirrup and hip is fine.


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## bsms

It is odd, but people rarely discuss mounting techniques. I guess it seems too simple. After all, most folks will mount up on their first lesson! But it seems to me a ripe area for serious thought. The cowboy, @gottatrot, taught the circling thing as best for a horse who might take off while mounting. I find it easier physically. It doesn't seem to pull the saddle any more than the perpendicular style (which is what I was mostly taught). Maybe less.

I'll admit when I watch old westerns, and the 6'5" cowboy strolls over to his 15 hand horse and easily mounts up, I'm jealous! At 5'8" and over 60, nothing seems very casual about mounting from the ground! Seems unfair - the taller the rider, the LOWER the stirrup. :evil:


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## bsms

Got another good ride in on Bandit this morning. We cut across the desert about 5 minutes into our ride and spent about 30 minutes wandering our way off-trail, twisting between cactus and dropping into and climbing out of washes. We then did a couple of longer canters on trails heading home - longer because I'm feeling better about him keeping his balance cantering on uneven ground. At the longer stirrup setting, going on uneven trails, I had to point my toes sometimes to keep the stirrups on. So I dismounted and tried it with the shorter setting. Easier to keep the stirrups on my feet, but harder to slip into synch with his rolling motion.

When we got back to the paved road of the neighborhood, I did something I hadn't done before. Dismounted, dropped the stirrups again, mounted and turned him HEADING BACK INTO THE DESERT! "WT F,O!", Bandit shouted. Then cantered up the hill and back out down the trail.

I decided I liked the longer setting better, so I asked him to slow, turn around, and head home. HE decided to canter part of the way...maybe hoping to get home before I changed my mind again! :rofl:

But he behaved beautifully today. Caught him by surprise a couple of times but he never quit. :clap:

BTW - the stirrup changes gave me a chance to practice mounting "in the wild". The "Back to Front" method definitely was easier on Bandit. Maybe I'm too old to "twirl"...my bones and joints may be past the twirling stage! But the front to back kept the saddle (I had a loose cinch, admittedly) more stable on his back and it just seemed easier on Bandit. He stayed steadier. And maybe on me, but twirling undoubtedly pulls a loose saddle further sideways. At least as my age! So I'll go back to my preferred straight ahead type of mounting. Might have a different answer if I was 20, but....


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## SueC

bsms said:


> I'll admit when I watch old westerns, and the 6'5" cowboy strolls over to his 15 hand horse and easily mounts up, I'm jealous! At 5'8" and over 60, nothing seems very casual about mounting from the ground! Seems unfair - the taller the rider, the LOWER the stirrup. :evil:


Bwahahaha! :lol: I used to mount backward-facing when I was short, but since I grew up several of decades ago it's just no trouble at all getting my feet in the stirrups with a horse Sunsmart's size (15.2hh) so I mount forward-facing, and looking at what the horse is doing, and don't turn mid-air. I just sort of step on and over. (Bareback is more challenging. :rofl

Commiserations to all the short-legged people. inkunicorn:


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## gottatrot

I think stirrup length also depends greatly on the movement and build of the horse you are riding.
If I were riding gaited horses my stirrups would be very long.

My good friend who rides baroque horses always rides toes down to keep her stirrups when going faster. It is a valid technique I think. 

Now that Hero isn't bucking all the time I am riding longer. He is very smooth. Halla or Booker required shorter stirrups or else you would get serious bruises.


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## phantomhorse13

And that is why I prefer a mounting block or tree stump or ditch.. but I guess I would be SOL in the desert, as standing on cactus doesn't seem like a good idea. :rofl:


It's very rare for me to mount from the ground, tho I did so with Link in the middle of a field not too long ago. I did the front facing, move diagonally method and luckily my loose saddle didn't move too much.


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## bsms

Want to share a couple of things. Not about riding, but about life perhaps - and life should shape our approach to riding, so....

The first two are from the book "Born to Run". Read it last night and wanted to share it:

















The rest of the story, from Wiki:

"_A hero in his native country, Zátopek was an influential figure in the Communist Party. However, he supported the party's democratic wing and, after the 1968 Prague Spring, he was stripped of his rank and expelled from the army and the party, removed from all important positions and forced to work in a string of menial manual labour positions.

He gained employment in one of the few companies not discouraged from employing out-of-favour citizens. The company was "Stavební Geologie", and he was immediately put to work prospecting for natural resources around Bohemia, infrequently being able to visit his wife in Prague. His work in such a field gave rise to the rumour that he had been sent (as many before him were) to the uranium mine concentration camps; however, the camps and the last of the mines had closed many years before. It is also rumoured that Zátopek had a short stint at refuse collection, but was let go as he was unable to complete a round without a horde of citizens insisting on helping him, though no evidence exists of this ever happening .

In 1977, after 5 years of working and living away from his wife and friends, Zátopek's spirit was broken and the communist government, no longer deeming him a threat, allowed him back to Prague with the offer of a further humiliating and menial job in the ČSTV (Čzechoslovak Union of Physical Education). As the only option to get back to Prague and his wife, Zátopek accepted the offer. Using his gift as a linguist, the ČSTV put him to work monitoring foreign publications for the latest developments in sports science and training techniques. It was a lowly job shuffling papers in a small office under Strahov stadium. He dutifully served until his retirement in the early 1980s.

On 9 March 1990, Zátopek was rehabilitated by Václav Havel.

Zátopek died in Prague on 22 November 2000 at the age of 78, from the complications of a stroke. His funeral at Prague's National Theatre was crowded with leading figures from the international sports world.

Zátopek was awarded the Pierre de Coubertin medal (the "True Spirit of Sportsmanship" medal) in 1975._"

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------​*
This is a picture of a picture. I took the picture years ago. Almost all of my photos from my flying days disappeared in a move. Seems one of the movers decided he needed the pictures more than I did. But in THIS move, I came across a paper printout I had made of this photo, so this is a picture of that paper printout - of an EF-111 over northwest New Mexico:








That is Shiprock Peak, New Mexico:


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## gottatrot

Thanks for sharing, I needed that kind of inspiration about now.


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## SueC

That's an incredible rock formation!


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## bsms

The rock formations around the Navajo reservation are rightly world famous. I love the entire area enough that I'd be willing to live in Winslow or Holbrook (east half of Arizona on I-40). However, I had kidney stone a week ago. It broke up inside of me 30 hours later. First kidney stone I've had in 30 years. It may be that moving myself using a pickup during three weeks of 100 degree heat dehydrated me enough to form one. Regardless, it reminded my wife that we need to keep access to health care in mind when looking at a place to live. Benson has a hospital and none of the places I'd seriously consider are more than 15-20 miles from a hospital. Given traffic in places like Tucson or Phoenix, a 20 mile ambulance ride on rural roads is no longer than what one would get going 5 miles in Tucson.

I don't think my wife loves NE Arizona quite as much as I do. Happily, there are a lot of places in Arizona I love, from the border area near Ft Huachuca up thru Prescott or Winslow. Mostly just want to get away from Tucson!

Put red circles around the areas that most interest us. The blue star is near Vail, where we've lived until now - now that Tucson is expanding and merging with Vail! The blue circle is where we are renting. We like the town and area well enough but not sure it will remain nice much longer. It is growing too...:evil:








Got a couple of short rides in on Bandit in the little arena in the last couple of days. Hope to head out into the desert tomorrow. Bandit is doing fine. My back was quite sore even after the stone passed so I didn't want to head out without first establishing I could ride without real issues - and I can. Even jogged a couple miles 2 days ago. That was a bit too much too fast, but riding isn't.

We were watching a show set in rural Alabama the other day. We both thought it looked beautiful. Once one gets away from places overwhelmed with humans, LOTS of places are really beautiful! I'm starting to think I could look at a map of low population density and consider it a map of beauty/ugly!


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## gottatrot

Ugh, kidney stones are bad news. I can imagine how easy it would be to get dehydrated in that kind of heat. 

My dad gave himself kidney stones years ago by eating way too much spinach after a bumper crop in his garden. 

For most people they are very painful and serious but not life- threatening. I had a patient once who nearly died from a stone that obstructed his ureter, trapping bacteria in the kidney that put him into septic shock. I had him on so many drips it took two extra people to push the IV poles along to the CT scanner with us.

Hopefully you will never have another stone again. 

I agree that there is a high correlation between low population and natural beauty in an area. The last two days we hiked out to beaches where we were completely alone with beautiful cliffs, trees and ocean. Very peaceful.


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## bsms

Out walking the dogs this morning, a couple of miles from the house we're renting. IF we decide to buy a house in Benson, the most likely location is on the far side of this valley.

















But if we could find something on this side, we'd prefer it. Except there isn't a lot of state land over here. And unfortunately, the private land owners have blocked access to the National Forest where the Whetstone Mountains are. The access roads are gated, locked with no trespassing signs, allowing the surrounding owners to essentially treat that part of the National Forest as their private land. The Forest Service is looking at building an access road, but hasn't been funded to do so yet. There is one on the west side that goes partway.

The Whetstone Mountains:


























​
"_The Whetstone Mountains are a dry and rugged fault-block mountain range only about 15 miles long. The upper slopes support open oak-juniper woodland; the lower slopes are scrub-grasslands. The only access to this mountain range is by a few unimproved four-wheel drive routes that reach some of the lower canyons. There are no roads reaching higher elevations. A single hiking trail into the heart of the mountain range is accessed from Kartchner Caverns State Park.

Special Places:

Kartchner Caverns: These caverns at the western base of the Whetstone Mountains were discovered in 1974 and their existence was kept secret for many years. The caverns were ultimately purchased by the State of Arizona and developed as a state park. Visitation is by guided tour only and special efforts are being made to maintain the caverns in their pristine condition._"


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## bsms

The last few rides have been about my riding after a kidney stone. I don't get to see the horses socially much, living 27 miles away. So I decided last night that today's ride would focus on Bandit. And what does Bandit like to do? Eat. Yes, he gets hay and pellets. But he's not the sort of horse to turn up his nose to weeds and super dry tufts of grass growing somewhere in the desert.

So our hour of riding today probably involved 20 minutes of me sitting on his back while he stuffed his face, and 20 minutes of him chewing a big wad of dead vegetation as we walked. Maybe 20 minutes max of focusing on a short canter or trot somewhere, or a drop into or climb out of a wash. It was pretty much me indulging him. I was there to enable his grazing on samples from the desert smorgasbord.

He seemed utterly content and seemed to understand at some level that today was about HIM. I get the feeling this is something a lot of instructors don't work into their lessons - the idea that the horse should get something out of it too, at least some of the time. I don't ride horses for work. I don't ride them to get from A to B. Today was a good reminder for me, too - *I ride for the pleasure of my horse's company. If I didn't like him, I wouldn't want to ride him!*

Yes, I still managed to fiddle with stirrups and think about leg position and play around with what felt good at a canter, etc. But today was rooted in just enjoying some time out on Bandit's back, and trying to make Bandit feel happy I was there.

I think I had a successful ride. Bandit seemed quite happy at ride's end, but not because the ride was ending. Big difference!


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## SueC

Hahaha!  Know the feeling. The first place the clover starts in our valley is on our neighbour's big hillside, and when that happens, we go from "normal" riding on the bush trails to (when we reach it) a slow progression through the hill pasture, which is like musical chairs - except it's musical clover patches. Walk slowly looking for next clover patch, munch for a minute or two, head for next clover patch, rinse and repeat. :rofl: My horse is semi-retired and I'm not rushing anywhere, so that's OK by me, although I am thinking of taking a novel to read for that stretch next year.

Clover has been growing well on our place for three weeks now, so Sunsmart doesn't play musical clover on the neighbour's big hillside anymore. 

But it's sort of like walking your dog. Some people (control freaks / dominators) want their dogs walking at heel never even looking at anything without permission. I like my dog to enjoy the walk, able to use all her senses and explore interesting things, and be a dog. She really enjoys checking out the "wee-mail" just as my horse likes to sniff any equine manure piles he comes across "on the road" - and she gives me delighted looks in-between rushing hither and yon on her explorations. The funny upshot is: She refuses to walk unless I'm with her. Other people can't take her walking because she won't go. Not even on a leash - she'd have to be dragged all the way - she sits and refuses, and once let off, rushes back to see where I am. I've never lost her on a walk or ride because she's checking back in with me frequently with a "this is excellent!" expression. :rofl:


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## gottatrot

Those mountains are beautiful. I'd be happy to live near those if there were not too many people around.

The discussion about dogs and horses enjoying their walk or ride is interesting. It made me remember a dog trainer who made the dog look in her face the whole time.

Then I wondered if someone insisted Hero turn his attention on the handler, because he used to focus on me excessively when he was anxious. Not great in a horse. Better they focus away and check out their surroundings. Also might make them more likely to spook into or over you.


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## bsms

Been thinking about stirrup length. Seems to me I ought to be able to ride effectively at a variety of lengths. Tried arena riding today with it two holes up from the longest setting. Actually felt better than I expected and it DID let me get far enough off of Bandit's back that he'd turn quite tight at a canter without issue.

Think I'll work on using 3 settings. 1 - Highest, best for rides when I want Bandit to max out athletically. Mostly in the arena. 2 - Medium, All around setting. 3 - Long - best for when I want to relax deep in the saddle, kind of like trail riding no stirrups except the stirrups are technically there just in case.

My long experiment with very long stirrups seems to have helped solve my problem with bracing in the stirrups. I think I had come to use them as a crutch.

I also have been trying to ride "on my pockets", which is much more the traditional western style. Did our cantering in a Forward Seat today...and enjoyed it. I guess it MIGHT make a higher risk if Bandit stumbles, but the truth is Bandit doesn't stumble often, and usually only does so at a walk. He's not nearly as reactive as he once was.

Came across this picture. Don't think I'll try to imitate it....








Someone who ropes can tell me if I'm wrong, but it seems the folks doing roping often use a shorter stirrup while still riding aggressively:

















Their horses are moving really hard but the guys aren't having a problem with biting the ground. And Bandit may move with a certain unpredictability but we don't move at that level of sheer force either! So after months of working at stirrup length 3, I'm going to work on stirrup length 1 for a bit. Seems a decent rider ought to be able to ride well at a variety of settings, and adjust based on what he wants to do that day. And Bandit really isn't at all spooky any more. He just isn't. Not a deadhead, but not reactive either.


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## bsms

https://youtu.be/81EG_16SS6M?t=143

I get the feeling those guys don't spend much time obsessing over stirrup length or position. Maybe the best way to learn riding is to simply do it without too much thinking? In my defense, there HAS to be a better way of learning than buying a spook monster and riding her in the Sonoran Desert...


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## egrogan

Denny Emerson has been posting lately about the virtues of being a kid riding free, bareback on crazy ponies to really develop your seat. I think that’s probably the most guaranteed way to be able to ride through anything and everything. I should make myself ride bareback more, but I’m a wimp.


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## bsms

I believe this dates to 1986 or so. The photo was varnished on a wooden plaque and turned very pink. I doctored this photo of the photo to try to take the pink out. The F-4 will always be my favorite plane! I'm on the intake just to the right (looking at the photo) of the woman.


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## gottatrot

Great photo!

I think it's good to be able to ride with a variety of stirrup lengths too. 

But I think it is less important if you are going for a shorter, easier ride versus a longer, more intense ride. Kind of like how where you have your seat in a car matters more on a longer drive.


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## SueC

By intake I assume you mean the thing near the ladder? There's a couple of women and I can't work out where you are. Are you sitting on top of the plane here, next to the woman in black and white, wearing a red bandana? I'm sure I've got that wrong...


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## bsms

At the base of the rear canopy sits a woman in light blue and navy blue (USAF but the colors of the photo were messed up by the varnish and the years - just glad I still have it!). She worked in admin. I'm sitting to the tail side & was actually eating a burger because I had just finished one flight and about to go fly another sortie and the photo was taken during the brief gap - which was also my only chance to eat.

The guy on the step ladder was my flight commander and a great guy. He was once disciplined for riding (on a bet) his Harley into the Officer Club and into and around the dining room. The Wing Commander was there and did NOT approve! Conduct unbecoming of an officer, they said. He also was the only guy I knew who had ejected from TWO aircraft. In the second ejection, they figured if he had pulled the ejection handles a couple of seconds later both he and the pilot would have died. He had a big influence on me as an officer, although I never rode a motorcycle into a building or ejected from an aircraft.


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## jgnmoose

bsms said:


> Been thinking about stirrup length. Seems to me I ought to be able to ride effectively at a variety of lengths. Tried arena riding today with it two holes up from the longest setting. Actually felt better than I expected and it DID let me get far enough off of Bandit's back that he'd turn quite tight at a canter without issue.
> 
> Think I'll work on using 3 settings. 1 - Highest, best for rides when I want Bandit to max out athletically. Mostly in the arena. 2 - Medium, All around setting. 3 - Long - best for when I want to relax deep in the saddle, kind of like trail riding no stirrups except the stirrups are technically there just in case.
> 
> My long experiment with very long stirrups seems to have helped solve my problem with bracing in the stirrups. I think I had come to use them as a crutch.
> 
> I also have been trying to ride "on my pockets", which is much more the traditional western style. Did our cantering in a Forward Seat today...and enjoyed it. I guess it MIGHT make a higher risk if Bandit stumbles, but the truth is Bandit doesn't stumble often, and usually only does so at a walk. He's not nearly as reactive as he once was.
> 
> Came across this picture. Don't think I'll try to imitate it....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Someone who ropes can tell me if I'm wrong, but it seems the folks doing roping often use a shorter stirrup while still riding aggressively:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Their horses are moving really hard but the guys aren't having a problem with biting the ground. And Bandit may move with a certain unpredictability but we don't move at that level of sheer force either! So after months of working at stirrup length 3, I'm going to work on stirrup length 1 for a bit. Seems a decent rider ought to be able to ride well at a variety of settings, and adjust based on what he wants to do that day. And Bandit really isn't at all spooky any more. He just isn't. Not a deadhead, but not reactive either.


Simple way to put it is that you want your upper leg and the slope of the horses shoulder to be approximately the same angle. 

It seems to be in the ballpark for me, and I have stuck with it. 

Some people have kind of developed enough experience, muscle memory and balance that they can do things that aren't correct and make it work especially if they started riding young.

Team Roping is also a very fast sport so even among those who are good riders needing to be under 6 seconds to place in the money is a lot of pressure to just go nuts. 

If you give that shoulder angle thing a try I am interested to hear if it worked out for you.


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## bsms

Trooper is worrying us. Sunday night he started lying down. My daughter called us and we went over. He seemed to have mild colic - no thrashing, sweating, temperature, etc. Willing to walk but not thrilled to do so. So we waited. This morning he was up and moving around freely but not interested in eating. We weren't certain if he was drinking. They had finished off their salt block the week before and I hadn't bought a new one. So I did so. We were busy with other obligations most of the day.

This evening, he seemed to have drunk some water and was nibbling at hay, but he still has no real appetite and my wife is worried that something feels odd along his throat. I can't feel it but she's an ex-nurse and is better at those things. I'll head over tomorrow morning and check again. If he isn't eating/drinking, then I'll see if I can find a vet to come look at him.

We talked with the rancher friend where we got Trooper. He said that line from Trooper's sire have tended to have cancer problems. The stallion was getting growths on his body and they bred him to all the mares they could before putting him down because he had excellent foals. Trooper was born out of season before that happened but he's now the last of the stallion's foals - mostly cancer. So my wife is worried he has cancer.

He's moving around freely but is lethargic. I'm hoping he'll be eating tomorrow morning. If not, we'll need a vet to take a better look. It isn't acting the same as the occasional tummy aches. The only bright spot is that he doesn't seem to be hurting much. But...with some horses, that might not mean much.


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## gottatrot

Oh no, I hope Trooper will be OK. 

Just FYI, when Amore has had esophogeal obstructions she hasn't always tried to put her head down and cough them up as you might expect. 
I thought she was dying a couple times because she would just lay down and breathe funny.

Just a thought, having a horse that has dry pellets ball up down there. If you don't soak his pellets it might be worth a try.


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## bsms

When Mia had colic, they stuck a tube down her throat. One of my hopes is that if it isn't resolved, then the vet will be able to look or at least LUBE the throat. He's a little on the tubby side - far from fat, but in no danger of NEEDING to eat for a few days. But if it IS a pellet lodged there, then maybe the vet will find/correct it.

We've called around and there is a vet who does large animals and who seems to have a decent reputation. I've had bad experiences with the one who is supposed to be a horse specialist...but in the end, I might have to take anyone I can find. It isn't quite like the James Herriot shows where the vet is always ready to come out! It is a pity the vet who does our dogs doesn't do horses. She's level headed and genuinely cares but only does small animals.


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## egrogan

Hoping he’s doing better today! Good thought from @gottatrot on possible obstruction. If that’s the case, a gentle, steady massage can sometimes help break it up depending on size.

Can’t remember how your pens are set up, but could he be in his own space so you can monitor how much he’s drinking and pooping?

We’ll be thinking good thoughts for all of you!


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## carshon

Sending good thoughts for Trooper. In general if a horse has something lodged it is far down in the chest and not at the back of the throat. My mare tends to get choke if not watched closely and has had a few incidences that were not full on choke but there was obstruction. Showing many of the signs Trooper is. Tubing seems to help


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## bsms

Thanks for the kind thoughts. Been a busy but GOOD day.

The wife woke up with large floaties in one eye, flashes of light along with pain. Meanwhile...we've also been watching two of our grandkids on a prolonged visit, and they have remote schooling. Fortunately, our daughter living in our house is off work today and offered to watch the kids while I drove my wife around. Our health insurance folks said her symptoms USUALLY resolve themselves but can be serious - so they sent us to urgent care, followed by a specialist. My sister had those symptoms a couple of years ago. She waited for a couple of days, finally went in - and was operated on within an hour of being seen.

"_A detached retina doesn't hurt. It can happen with no warning. You might notice:

Flashes of light
Lots of new "floaters" (small flecks or threads in your vision)
Darkness or a “curtain” over your vision, including the middle or the sides

....Since your retina can't work properly when this happens, you could have permanent vision loss if you don’t get it treated right away. Call your eye doctor or have someone take you to the ER._"

https://www.webmd.com/eye-health/eye-health-retinal-detachment#1

Good news, though. After several good looks, they concluded this one (as is typical) was NOT a detached retina and symptoms should clear. And they already seem to be getting better. Took 7 hours and over 150 miles of driving her around Tucson, but very good news. BTW - my sister's laser surgery resulted in a total recovery. 100 years ago, she'd have lost sight in that eye.

*Now Trooper*. My daughter saw him pee this morning, so we finally KNEW he was taking water in. But he was coughing and had no interest in eating. I'd drive back while my wife was being seen - and with COVID I'm not allowed to accompany her. People where I live must not be big on vets. I had leads on two vets. Called. Both have converted to small animals only. One receptionist looked for me. Her recommendations were either the vet I don't like or...a vet in Benson, where we are renting and considering moving to. Both are 25+ miles from where we live.

Meanwhile, the daughter called and said Trooper was acting more normal. He was moving more and looking for things to eat in the corral. When the wife was cleared to return home, we checked on Trooper. We have some alfalfa hay for the chickens. She offered some to Trooper. Bandit said HE liked alfalfa more. Trooper said "*I'M HUNGRY!*" 

After a brief discussion, they decided sharing was easier than fighting. Although Cowboy ALSO likes alfalfa, so we started rushing around trying to keep all three happy. So then we tossed out three small flakes of bermuda, and all three started chowing down!








Never thought I'd want to share a picture of Trooper eating quietly! But it was SOOOOOO good seeing this!

I think @gottatrot is right. Talked to my oldest daughter and a meal of hay pellets was Trooper's last meal on Sunday before the pain. He's eaten hay pellets at least once a day for over 10 years...but maybe THIS time one got caught?

----------------------------------------​
This has been a wake-up call for us. We've TALKED about getting a trailer, but we always had neighbors who would let us use theirs and/or vets would come out. But we only have one neighbor left who would loan us a trailer and vets who make house calls - or even look at horses - are getting fewer too!

So we NEED a trailer. Any recommendations on style would be listened to. A two horse is all we can haul with our vehicles. I've got an F-150, but an F-150 with a 6 cylinder AND a manual transmission is only rated to 3600 lbs. Good enough in a pinch. My XTerra is rated to 5000 but I need to get a hitch. And we both think we need to get a truck rated to at least 7,000 lbs. MAX towing capacity and SMART towing capacity differ and I'm told horses put more stress on a hauling vehicle than sheer weight because of how the weight is distributed. Trooper and Bandit and a two horse trailer ought to weigh around 4500 lbs.

Where we live, a trailer may NOW be something of a necessity when a horse has issues. We got away with what we did, but the correct answer may be "_Load Trooper in a trailer first thing in the morning and take him to a large animal vet...._" And the more remote a location we settle on, the more that may be required.


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## whisperbaby22

I have a real nifty little trailer, I customized it with an escape door so I can just lead my horse straight out. 

One suggestion I do have is to consider a trailer with no ramp. Ramps are just a hassle, especially when you are older like me. I use a portable ramp that I made years ago and still use to this day and it makes my life so much easier. In an emergency I can just load my horse in and go without the hassle of a ramp. 

The ramp is light enough for me to toss in the back of my truck, I use it to make it easier for my horse to get in and out.


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## horseluvr2524

Glad Trooper is ok! Unsoaked hay pellets/cubes, beet pulp, etc, always seemed to me too much of a hazard to not soak. And tons of benefits to soaking, with the only drawback being that you can't leave it to sit for hours on end after wetting them.


Trailer recommendations... I've been slammed inside a slant load before, in a situation that would have entirely been avoided if the trailer had instead been a straight load with a walk through/escape door in the front. I have an extreme dislike of slant loads for numerous reasons. Traditional straight loads (without the escape door/walkthru door in the front) can be difficult to work with and get horses loaded in, but I'll take that over a slant load. The best trailer for my preferences, and they are unfortunately extremely difficult to find on your side of the country, is the straight load with walk through door. You walk the horse in, then duck under the chest bar. Helper gets the butt bar, then you tie the horse, and step calmly out of the handy dandy door at the front.
So either one of those, or a stock trailer, which I like almost as much. Those are my preferences though. Picture is from the internet of the sort of straight load I was describing. Found one of those style trailers for my mom, but it was a gooseneck. Awesome trailer, and the easiest loading experience ever. The people she bought it from in Arizona had hauled it from New York, so go figure, what I said about them being nigh impossible to find in the southwest.


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## Chevaux

That’s an interesting take on slant loads, horseluvr. My first trailer was a straight load (with ramp - add on and later removed as it was just too heavy for me). My current trailer is a slant. Of the two, my preference is the slant. One thing with my slant is that it doesn’t have a back tack room. I can lead the horses in and lead them out and they don’t fuss/rush and seem a lot more quiet overall. I always feel I’ve got plenty of safe room for me. Am I correct in assuming your experience was with a back tack ? Those I find very tunnel like with little opportunity for defensive moves — something I’m sure bsms can appreciate given his military background😀


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## egrogan

Glad to hear both your wife and Trooper are feeling better. Hope they continue to improve.


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## carshon

I will also chime in here. I have an extreme dislike for straight loads with ramps. I have seen many accidents from the ramps and I do not like straightload trailers. Yes, in a sudden stop the horses chest takes the brunt of the "push" but it can also send the horse into the manger. This happened to me with a young colt I was taking to be gelded. He was a big colt at about 15H and when we were close to the vet clinic I had someone stop abruptly in front of me so I had to slam on the brakes. I felt the jolt as Elvis hit the manger of the trailer. When I did not feel anything else I went to the vet clinic. Imagine all of our surprise when we opened the door to back him out and he was head down in the manger. It became an emergency call at that point- scary and unnecessary. This was in the early 90's and I had a nice fairly new trailer. My vet (a rural all animal vet) said he had seen this happen but only when the horse rears over the front of the trailer. I sold that two horse and went to a stock trailer. I now have a 3 horse slant that I LOVE. The horses do not back out. Any impact is taken on the sides of the horse.

For economical trailers Calico, Titan and some others make good trailers. Brenderup makes a fantastic lightweight trailer. 

Good Luck with the trailer search!


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## horseluvr2524

@*Chevaux* 
Yes, it had a back tack, and was a two horse. Aside from my own experience of being pinned (which resulted due to panels being in the way which I could not move out of the way), the lady who owned the trailer had also gotten trapped, and her not so steady young Arabian reared up over her head, hooves flailing inches from her while she ducked and had her arms up to try to protect herself. Thank God, she made it out of that without injury, but it was nerve racking for me standing on the outside watching and helpless to do anything. The trailer did have an "escape door", which was completely useless for the human as you can't open it from the inside (located in the first stall as is normal for a slant), and it all happened so fast, I was standing at the back holding my own horse waiting to load, and I didn't think to move around and open the escape door - it was over before I would've been able to anyway.
So the problems of maneuvering with panels and the lack of a walkway for the handler to escape to with a door that actually opens from the inside, combined with the diagonal position in which the horse is forced to stand, which I personally feel is extremely undesirable for long trips, are my main reasons for not liking a slant. I just can't reconcile in my head the notion of standing diagonal on a moving platform. Not balancing front to back, or side to side, but attempting to balance at a slanted, diagonal position. If they are snugly clamped between panels they likely have an easier time, being able to brace against the panels, but most of the time I see plenty of gap and space between the horse's body and the panels on the sides. 

Many professional commercial horse haulers don't use slant loads - they use head to heads, which are like the modern straight loads with the aisle walkway in front, but then there are two stalls on the other side of the walkway where the horses face the reverse direction, their heads facing the heads of the horses across the aisle. Shan journeyed from AZ to OH in one of these, but it was a commercial sized semi-trailer that fit more horses on each side than the trailer pictured below.











@*carshon* 
That's an unfortunate accident. Yeah, I'm not a real fan of the old style straight loads, but like I said, will take one over a slant. I like stock trailers since you can let the horse travel the way it chooses to in a box stall sort of setup. But for loading and unloading difficult, fractious horses - to me nothing is better than a straight load with a walkway, or a head to head. I feel like if people had the opportunity to try a walkway straight load, they would really like it, but they just aren't as common as slants. All of our horse friends and acquaintances, who had slant loads, loved my mom's trailer.
The major drawback to this style of straight load or the head to head is that they tend to make a long trailer, and you can't fit as many horses as you can with a slant.


Just trying to share and show a bit of how great these trailers are, since if your only experience with a straight load is the old style with the manger, I totally get the hatred of them. (I'm not sure if it's clear-the walkway straight loads have no manger, the horses heads are out in the aisle instead, and they are able to move their head down over the chest bar to clear their airways if needed, so much as their tie allows).
Sorry for the journal hijack, @*bsms
*


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## horseluvr2524

This article may explain better than I did...
https://stablemanagement.com/articles/pros-cons-straight-load-slant-load-trailers-53925


ETA: The article says that you have to back a horse out in a straight load... it depends on how it's made, actually. Once the butt bars were released on my mom's trailer, you could push the panel over to the side to allow the horse to turn and walk out head first. However, if hauling two horses, then yes, the first one out would have to back out.


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## bsms

Trooper was brought to us by a professional using a slant load. I have zero experience of my own with any design and like hearing what others have seen. My personal preference just on looks and what I've seen around here would be for a stock trailer. But they rarely are for sale used.

We have a two horse straight load no ramp trailer. We bought it 12 years ago for emergencies and put hay into it as a temporary hay barn. 12 years later, the only thing that has been in it is hay. At a minimum, we'd need to overhaul it - wheel bearings, new tires. MAYBE wiring. And painting.

OTOH, it is heavy for its size, dark, and the escape hatch would require a champion gymnast for use in an emergency. No way my old body would make it through unless the horse KICKED me out!

Trooper was waiting eagerly for breakfast this morning, making my daughter very happy. And us. Lost a lot of sleep for a few nights.

Part of me wants to look for a new stock trailer. If/when we no longer have horses, it would sell well here.


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## gottatrot

Glad your wife is OK. A nurse I work with had that same thing happen last week. The doctor explained it as a problem with the fluid inside the eye, it gets less lubricating as we age and small particles can abrade off inside the eye.
The only problem is that the symptoms are the same as retinal detachment. Thankfully that is not what it was.

Glad to hear Trooper is ok. Maybe he got enough water down to soften the jam and break it loose.

It could be a sign of a new dental misalignment. Supposedly Amore's issue should have been permanent since she has just a little dental chewing surface left at 29. But after soaking her pellets for months, I noticed she was chewing better after her last float thus year and I haven't had to soak since then.

I still don't give her large amounts of dry pellets, in case some go down without being chewed. Anyway, you might consider soaking to be safe. I only added water 5 minutes before feeding and that softened them up adequately.


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## horseluvr2524

bsms said:


> Trooper was brought to us by a professional using a slant load.
> 
> OTOH, it is heavy for its size, dark, and the escape hatch would require a champion gymnast for use in an emergency. No way my old body would make it through unless the horse KICKED me out!
> 
> Trooper was waiting eagerly for breakfast this morning, making my daughter very happy. And us. Lost a lot of sleep for a few nights.
> 
> Part of me wants to look for a new stock trailer. If/when we no longer have horses, it would sell well here.



I meant the professional horse shippers, the ones that do cross country hauls. All the shipping companies I checked out used head-to-heads. One of the reasons is that sections of a head-to-head are easily converted to box stalls. The box stalls (like a compartment in a stock trailer) are the best thing for long distance, if you can afford the extra 2k the shipping company charges, lol.
Most professional horse people (trainers, ranch owners, etc) do use slant loads. I was under the impression you received Trooper from a ranch?



The "escape doors" in the old style straight loads are always laughable to me, like somebody's idea of a bad joke. I've never seen anyone actually use them. I would be afraid Shan would try following me out of that tiny hatch.


So glad he's got his appetite back! Health scares are nerve wracking.


I think a stock trailer is a very good choice, and agree that they do resell very well. And if you ever wanted to adopt a BLM mustang, that would be the trailer you would need.


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## bsms

Trooper came from a friend's ranch, but I paid a professional shipper to bring him down. He dropped Trooper off at 1 AM and had 3 other horses that were heading on to Georgia!


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## gottatrot

We had the little mustang Bibi get halfway out the escape door on a old straight load. She also got herself over a feeder in another trailer. No injuries though, she never panicked so we could just push her back where she belonged.

The new straight loads for warmbloods are very nice. Hero doesn't back out of trailers but there is room to turn around. No feeders in front of my friends' trailers to bump into, and ramps so low no horse could slip or object.

That being said, my horses rode down the craziest, twisting mountain roads recently in a solid slant load on a very hot day and looked like they napped and ate the whole time. No sweat or soreness.

In my opinion either option or a stock trailer is fine, if well built, open and well ventilated. A solid, airy box with enough space to balance and move is the key I think.


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## SueC

I'm late to the party here, but I'm so glad Trooper recovered and your wife doesn't have retinal detachment. It's such a worry when things like this happen. As far as the trailer discussion goes, I agree with @gottatrot - more important it's a good one than the type it is. Personally I don't know how you'd get multiple horses out of slant loads in an accident, and I think horses would balance better in straight loads. The horse stud I grew up on had an Olympic double trailer, straight load, with escape door, everything operated really easily and no mangers to catch on. The divider could be pushed to the side, but horses were usually backed off. Since the ramp wasn't steep, it wasn't an issue. However, the prior trailer was a Taylor, which was also a straight-load double with an escape door, but this one created accidents and was dangerous for your fingers etc. The ramp was too steep (platform was higher up off the road, which also made the trailer less stable), the trailer too narrow, everything too heavy and hard to move including the escape door, divider and tail gate (ramp). The escape door was too narrow, the bum bars were pin-drops where you had to line up the holes to close them, which meant standing in the middle of the ramp fiddling and making metallic noises behind the horse and no fun if it decided to come out backwards in a panic. Stuff like this.

The Olympic had wide padded click-shut bum bars operated with a long lever from the side of the float, totally safe for the operator. Lower platform = more stable travel, lower ramp angle. Wider inside, especially around the front, in front of the wide well-padded chest bars - plenty of headroom for the horses, and space for the handlers to duck out the escape door without claustrophobia. Light colour inside = brighter, not like the "dark hole" of the wooden Taylor float which horses didn't like to enter.

Oh and ride in the trailers you're considering yourself before buying. It will tell you how good the shock absorption is, and how quietly or otherwise the thing travels - the Taylor creaked like nobody's business, and that could spook both young horses and occasionally trailered horses.

Accidents - chest bars in the front were hinged and quick-release in case of accident, which stood us in good stead one time when an excitable mare (the type who wants to jump gates at home) decided to try to jump over the chest bar while travelling and got her front feet over it, ending up doing a handstand with her face squashed into the ground. Thanks to the quick-release it was relatively easy to release the horse from its trap, and then re-install the chest bar. But had this happened in the Taylor, the horse would have needed to be angle ground out of that situation - ultra stressful and dangerous, and not something you can do by the side of the road.

The majority of horses aren't crazy like this, but you do have to cater for them. Hanging a hay net when trailering horses distracts them and can prevent all sorts of mischief. Horses calm down a lot when they're chewing something nice.

Happy trailer hunting!


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## knightrider

Ever since I got Isabeau, who is a great loader and a terrible hauler, I have experimented with letting horses stand the way they want to stand in a trailer, leaving them untied.

Years ago, after reading an article in Western Horseman, and owning a trailer scrambler (a horse who tries to climb sideways up the sides of your partition), I have taken away the partition of every trailer I have owned.

And now I frequently don't tie my horses either. It is interesting to see how they choose to go down the road.

Most of the time, the horses choose to ride backwards, looking at where they have been. And if they are not doing that, they stand slanted together. They almost never chose to stand side by side with their heads facing forward. I think I've arrived at my destination seeing that configuration only once in the 3 or 4 years I've been hauling horses untied. I find it interesting. Don't know what it means. Wish the horses could talk.


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## SueC

That's excellent information, @knightrider - asking the horses and seeing what they do. Thank you for this!  Always something to learn.


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## knightrider

When I was posting photos of a recent camping trip, I realized here is a photo of how Windy and Chorro like to travel. If we put them in any other way, they rearrange themselves to stand like this.


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## SueC

@knightrider, my husband rode on the train a lot when he was younger and he just said that if he had to stand while travelling he would always stand at 45 degrees to the direction of travel, and then shift his weight around his feet, for stability - and that he found that easier than standing straight on to the direction of travel. I know he's a two-legs not a four-legs, but that fits in nicely with your horses' preferences, doesn't it?


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## bsms

Got a book on horse trailers. Told the story of a woman who bought a horse. As she drove her home, the mare disappeared from view. She stopped, went back, and the horse was lying down. She got the mare up and started down the road. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat.

When she got home, the mare calmly got on her feet again and backed out. She called the previous owner. "_Oh yeah_" he said. "_She likes to trailer lying down...Always does that!_"

Been a strange week so haven't ridden Bandit. Got there today and briefly tried matching my thigh angle to his shoulder angle. That required raising the stirrups one hole from the higher of the two setting I normally use. I dropped them back to the higher of the two setting because while it got me further out of the saddle, I just don't have a need to get that far out.

I suspect roping is similar to polo in that you need (I'm guessing, I don't do either) to be stable when throwing the rope or swing the stick. I don't need that any more than I need to jump 3 foot fences. There is a trade-off too. The higher the stirrups, the further back I sit in a saddle. Assuming the stirrup straps stay straight vertical, a shorter stirrup forces the rump further back as the body folds more - hence in part the flatter cantle of a jump saddle.

That isn't all bad. If trail riding, being behind my horse a little is good if he does a dropped shoulder spin. It gives me a moment of reaction time. But Bandit really isn't spooking like that. Western saddles distribute the weight over a large area to the rear and thus can easily protect the loin from high PSI. But I then have to accept either riding further behind my horse's center of gravity OR leaning forward more.

People discuss equitation as if it is something involving good/bad. But riding involves continual compromises. You help one area and hurt another. The longer of my 2 common stirrup settings feels more comfortable to me at a walk or canter but reduces my ability to absorb shock with my legs in a trot - and Bandit typically trots English, not a western jog.

I wish people who wrote about riding would include discussing how doing X or Y affect K or P, and how different goals or horses or body structures means you need to tweak how you ride.

Winds were picking up as I rode in the arena and we quit early. Mostly boredom. Bandit rode like I'd been riding him all week. My farrier says some horses are like that. He thinks they are horses with strong memories. Makes them harder to cure of bad habits, but it means good habits REMAIN good habits.

Took a trip up north to look around parts of northern Arizona. Traveled to Safford (about 90 miles), took a twisting small road into New Mexico, headed north on a very remote NM rode, then back into Arizona.

We didn't like Eager. Springerville is nicer but didn't seem to have much horse property. Surprisingly, my wife liked St Johns - a town of 3,500. That shocked me because it is 30 miles from there to the closest grocery store! I sometimes forget how BIG Arizona is! We also liked Taylor/Snowflake. Came back via Show Low and Globe, then to Safford. That at least keeps us away from the Phoenix/Tucson corridor of high population, high traffic, high idiot zone.

But I suspect Chino Valley and the Prescott area might be a better match for what my wife wants. I'd be fine in St Johns. My hobbies are running, riding horses and I'm happy a long way from people. Not sure my wife would be. And the current ridiculous house buying by people from out of state has made house hunting tough although there are signs it is dropping off. I am 100% certain that very few people who have lived comfortably in cities really WANT to live in St Johns Arizona!








We also need to decide if we really want to move north. We both like the weather in many ways, but there are some good places south of us too! Whetstones AZ is close to Ft Huachuca, close enough to Sierra Vista, has lots of horse properties and warmer winters.


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## bsms

BTW - If anyone ever drives from Show Low to Globe, it is 85 miles without a restroom, fuel or food. And highway 180 running up along the west side of New Mexico is much the same. Some beautiful country IMHO, but not many people. We drove for an hour in one part of New Mexico and only counted 5 cars, all coming the other way. Towns like Pleasanton, New Mexico - population 106, all of whom were apparently in hiding when we drove through. Internet picture:








One of the few pictures I took, near where we crossed into New Mexico:


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## egrogan

We are a bit enamored with New Mexico. When it's easier to travel again we're very eager to go back. I don't know if we'll ever retire, but if that happens some day and we can't take the snow anymore, I have a feeling that would be on the top of our list.


Hope you're enjoying the adventures!


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## weeedlady

Dearest Husband has friends who live in New Mexico. The husband loves it, the wife not so much. 

I think we would be the same. Not enough trees and grass for me.


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## bsms

Like a lot of places in the west, grass and trees in New Mexico depends on elevation. Lordsburg? Flat, treeless and dry. Clovis/Portales in east New Mexico, where my youngest was born? Not as dry but flat & treeless. The standard newcomer joke for the military was, "_There's a pretty girl behind every tree. Just no trees!_"

New Mexico also has a lot of mountains over 10,000 feet. Wheeler Peak hits 13,167! The west side is a combo of low mountains and grasslands.

Arizona is the same. The Phoenix/Tucson corridor, with 90% of the population, is dry and the trees are mesquite shrubs. But the 85 mile drive from Show Low to Globe is almost unbroken pine forest. Flagstaff gets over 100 inches of snow a year. 45 miles away, Winslow gets 13 (IIRC). Chino Valley AZ has a lot of pronghorns.

Of course, the grasslands in the desert are not like the grasslands of Kentucky. OTOH, the grassland and forests of New Mexico and Arizona often go unbroken for 30-50 miles. Then a small town, then another 30-50 miles of open land.

It definitely isn't for everyone, and I'd be a happy camper if folks STOPPED moving to Arizona & Utah and New Mexico! But these are as true a picture of Arizona as one of Saguaros:


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## bsms

A strange COVID impact:

My friend with a sheep ranch normally hires workers from Chile. He has to pay for them to make trips home. But when they went home last winter, COVID restrictions in the spring prevented them from returning. He needs three herders and was only able to hire two, both from Peru.

Says that for unknown reasons, the guys he hired from Peru are OK caring for sheep but horrible with both dogs and horses. Dogs are essential for their work but they treat the dogs like machines - and good sheep dogs do NOT appreciate working for uncaring people!

Same with horses. Says they would cheerfully ride a horse to its death. Said it was disgusting to see how they treated the horses - but they need horses and he had to take what he could get - and is still way short on help. He's taken to rotating the horses in and out every few days so they get a few days of neglect and hard use, followed by a few days of rest and care at the home ranch.








The guy in yellow is the guy he wants to hire and who wants to work, but he's stuck in Chile. Says the guy is magic with dogs and very good with horses, too. They sold a bunch of sheep this fall because they didn't have the workers to handle the full herd through the winter. But....COVID.

We had told him about Trooper during the time Trooper wasn't eating. He called to ask us how Trooper was doing. I remember when he was young. He told me horses were tools. I guess 40 years of using those "tools" gave him a different perspective because he got to talking about some of the horses he's ridden over the years. He obviously misses some of them. 

We both agree that some people are born with feel for animals, and some just seem born with NO feel. And some in between. But if someone has no feel at all, how do you teach them? I don't think it is possible.


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## bsms

Rode Bandit barefoot this morning. His feet have been slowly improving and he now seems good to go without boots. But the boots did help him and I wish I had started him using them several years earlier. Not sure he has much need for them now.

Took him away from his hay because I got there about 30 minutes after he got hay and we're supposed to have 40 mph winds this afternoon. I thought he'd be resentful, and I can't pretend he was THRILLED to head out. But once we were out...he behaved like a champ and so we made lots of feeding stops. He rarely ate the dried grass. It was as if he thought, "_I can eat dry grass anytime! But these weeds! What exquisite taste! My Desert Smorgasbord!_" He cheerfully did most everything I asked of him, so it didn't hurt me any to spend time sitting on top of him while he delighted in....weeds!

Tasty weeds.....:shrug:...but he was positively cheerful as we finished. Every once in a while I'll finish a ride where I truly believe my horse enjoyed it more than I did. And today was one of those days.

Heading home. Relaxed horse. No worries, mate! Think the exercise helped to relax him while the weeds just satisfied! And he has a new, blue rope halter which I think suits him:








Oh, and I mostly rode with one hand on the reins and one on my thigh, like western riders are supposed to. Also did some 2-handed direct reining, which isn't supposed to work with a solid bit but...Bandit is used to it and knew perfectly well what I was asking. Direct reining with Bandit using a solid low port curb just isn't a problem. Suspect most bits are like that: If the horse UNDERSTANDS the cues, then it just doesn't matter what the bit is like.


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## horseluvr2524

bsms said:


> We both agree that some people are born with feel for animals, and some just seem born with NO feel. And some in between. But if someone has no feel at all, how do you teach them? I don't think it is possible.



My brother (18 y/o) told me recently that he doesn't get attached to pets/animals. I'm baffled by this. Don't know how that is possible. Such people exist?!


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## gottatrot

That sounds like it was a great ride. The blue does look good on Bandit!
@HorseLuvr, I don't get it either. But people live in cities and some believe we all should. I would wither up and die. 

To me animals are just the best. I was cheered up so much when I drove through a neighborhood today and saw the gang of wild turkey boys walking in a line. There were about 8 or 9 and they just strut along, looking around like, "Aren't we handsome devils?" You can't help laughing at the show.


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## bsms

Why do I need to move? Just saw news: One of the last areas of open land on the south side of the Rincons is slated to have over 500 homes built on it, with another 500 added in a couple of years. My home is WAY south of that, but Tucson is now spilling out to the southeast. Gotta get far enough away from the Tucson Tsunami...


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## SueC

Ever feel like handing out free contraception to everyone you meet, @bsms? 😇


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## bsms

Truly, @SueC! I guess the good news of it is that most of Arizona's growth and population is in the Tucson/Phoenix corridor. Benson isn't too bad and it is just 30 miles from Tucson. Went to a church in Whetstones AZ. Horse property is often available there. We then drove 10 miles to Sierra Vista, AZ to do some shopping. 10 miles in 10 minutes. Seems the population there (about 43,000) has stayed stable the last 10 years.

But yeah, Arizona is growing. Rapidly. And I can't think of anything GOOD that will come of it. Utah, somewhat of an adopted home state for me since I went to college there and have visited regularly, is exploding as well. And I can't help but think of fruit flies and high school science classes......


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## bsms

Something that used to be a common sight, but that I haven't seen for too long:








​Youngest daughter is home on leave for a week. In spite of Trooper's hoof, we went for a ride. His hoof is actually looking a bit better after I trimmed it last week. And the farrier will be out Monday. The crack is there but no sign it is bothering Trooper, so he went for a ride. Probably the first time he's been ridden in 6 months.

He performed like he'd been ridden every day for the last 6 months. He doesn't like me. And even my youngest says he isn't as sociable as some others. But he is an excellent horse. I can't think of a single ride in 12 years where he hasn't given a good, honest effort - which is why my rancher friend sold him to us as a good horse for beginners.

We kept things at a walk mostly. Bandit was great as well. I could have done 90% of the ride with the reins draped on the horn. Trooper followed along, unfazed by any rough terrain, steep spots (up or down). He just got the job done. Like a trooper! Bandit enjoyed the company. Nothing bothered him. Someone had left a big dirty rag in one of the washes. He glanced, considered detouring, decided against it, took a sniff and kept rolling along - all in about 3 seconds of thought. He obviously knows what he is doing, what is expected of him, how to do it - so what is there to stress over?

I realize folks sometimes like excitement. If we were solo, Bandit and I would have covered some of the ground at much higher speed. But I spent 7 years never knowing if Mia was about to spin 720 degrees or leap 5 feet sideways. That makes a tough ride and is part of why I tended to brace against the stirrups. But my summer of extra long stirrups seems to have cured me of that. Or maybe it is just that Bandit is turning into a highly sociable version of Trooper. Not saying a different environment couldn't get his emotions elevated. He could spin up fast in a different environment. But he now understands THIS environment and is performing like....well, like a trooper!


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## bsms

I've not seen anything like this work before. Maybe more will be in the future?

"_PARLEY’S CANYON, Utah (KRDO) -- The Utah Division of Wildlife Resources shared a video of animals big and small using the Parley's Canyon wildlife overpass.

The video shows animals ranging from moose to chipmunks using the overpass to safely cross Interstate 80 throughout the past year._"

Video shows wildlife overpass in Utah a success - KRDO

With all we humans get wrong, it is nice to see us win a round for a change!


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## gottatrot

That is great!! Amazing it works so well.


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## egrogan

@bsms, I heard this story on a podcast and you were the first person I thought of- I just wasn't sure if we should encourage you to approach it from a two-legged or four-legged vantage point?!


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## bsms

Went to ride Bandit today...and didn't. Hauled my saddle and tack out of the garage. Went to get Bandit. My oldest daughter was out at the corral and we got to talking. Bandit and Trooper came over and joined us. For the next FORTY MINUTES. They both had their noses within 12 inches of our elbows as we talked. Of course, Bandit got a lot of face rubs. Trooper would back off if offered a face rub, but then come back with his nose inches from Bandit's and from our elbows.

My oldest daughter told me Bandit was like Denise the Menace. "_If I don't lock the gate after entering, he'll slide over and then open the gate and dart out. He races 100 feet away, then turns around AND LAUGHS AT ME! He's no trouble to catch again. He just thinks it is a neat trick. And he thinks it is FUNNY!_"

I pointed out scientists claim horses can't do things like that and that laughing is NOT supposed to be possible - but that everyone who has met Bandit agrees. He laughs at us. I don't know how to explain it. Neither does my farrier, nor my oldest (or youngest) daughter. But...he laughs!

Anyways, they were SO relaxed and SO calm. Cowboy had stayed back, roaming the corral looking for any possibly missed blades of Bermuda. The last 3 days have been very windy. Just like after days of rain, the horses LIKE a calm, sunny day after days of wind. And if they had relaxed any more, they'd have melted into puddles in the corral. I didn't have the heart to ruin it by insisting on a ride. So we gave them pellets and left the three horses eating their favorite food, unharassed by human needs.

*I think I miss hanging out around them more than I miss the regular riding.*

-------------------------------------------------------

Before my youngest went back to Ft Gordon, we got in a morning hike in Saguaro National Monument, along the south edge where there are no visitor centers or fees. We covered 6 miles in 2 hours, which was a tough pace because of the sand and the hills in the second half of the hike. There is a main trail where we saw other people, then we branched off into Coyote Creek where we saw no one at all.










A remains of a dead Saguaro with a living Saguaro behind it. The ribs form the ridges and allow the saguaro to expand like an accordion when rain falls.










The wash itself with a less-than-thrilled-at-a-picture-being-taken daughter. In one spot, we came across about a 50' long dead tree trunk. I didn't take a picture at the time because I was planning on returning via the wash and taking it then, and we went a different route back. But...the nearest place trees like that are found is at least 3 miles away. Maybe 5. And a 50' log doesn't travel down a wash in a few inches of water! It was a reminder that when these places flood, they FLOOD!










She was in the lead here. 3 mph is a good clip to maintain in this footing. We saw a deer squirt across in front of us at one point. There is plenty of life in the desert but it is tied to where the water flows.










This one just seemed an uncommonly fine specimen, maybe 200 years old? It has probably been up there from well before the Civil War and a generation or two before the gunfight at the OK Corral.










This one was along the main trail back to where we parked the car. It reminds me of the story about how the Saguaros are in a slow motion cocktail party, and we move by so slowly that, in their time frame, we don't even exist!


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## bsms

We did a preview drive by yesterday of 6 possible places to move to. Several would not work, Three have potential. Will do a drive by today of another place. The wife is the one who wants to live closer to a city but she seems very receptive to getting a place 10-15 miles from Benson - and further from Tucson. The places we looked at varied from 5-10 acres. Even with 5 acres, we could dedicate two for an arena. I like to think of myself as a trail rider but our "arena" is 100' x 70', so more of a large round pen than arena. If I had a BIG arena, where Bandit could hit a gallop in a straight line and where we could ride both horses without being on top of each other....that might work too! But they all also had roads nearby where one could ride a few miles. It would be great if I could have a loop where I could ride Bandit as some speed and 3-4 miles long AND have a wife happy to live there!

Two of the places are just 5 miles from this rest stop on I-10:






We hope to check out another possible spot this afternoon near Cochise Stronghold:






Plan on actually looking at the potential spots tomorrow afternoon. I suspect it would take a couple of months at my pace to get several of them horse-ready. Hope y'all don't mind the videos. So often people think of Arizona as Saguaros. And it HAS them, but there is much more to the state.


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## bsms

We've entered escrow on a house with 6-7 acres. Most of which looks like this:










It is at 4500' MSL and thus a bit cooler - about 15 degrees cooler than Tucson and about 5 degrees cooler than where we've lived. It isn't an alluvial fan either, so not super rocky. The entire area is very different from this:










We have a 15 day inspection period and the important ones (house & well) won't take place until next week. Even if everything goes smooth, I don't see getting the horses moved there prior to the end of February. But it has decent dirt roads that would allow riding 3-4 miles laps and even just a ride around the property would be close to 1/2 mile. I think even Trooper would be pretty content to go out and walk laps near the other horses. Particularly if I put a flake of hay and a bucket of water along the way and let him "graze" a few minutes with every lap!

Don't know if it will pan out and it is OK if we have to back out and resume looking. Far better to avoid a big mistake in real estate than trying to recover from one! But after 12 years of riding with cactus and rock as my constant companions...it looks tempting. Oh - and our lot would be one of the smallest in the area. Most of the homes are on 10-20 acres.


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## egrogan

Very exciting news! I hope it works out for you. Does it already have horse "infrastructure" or would you be adding it? Any horsey neighbors?


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## whisperbaby22

It looks beautiful. Good luck wichever way it goes.


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## lb27312

How exciting!! Looks nice. Good luck!!


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## bsms

We'll need to build horse facilities. My wife & I just spent an hour discussing possibilities, but it is hard for me to visualize it until I can walk the property. We are both agreed we need to spend more money on the facilities than we have at our current house. The county there was very difficult to deal with and the lot wasn't a good design for building a nice facility. An acre is roughly 200' x 200'. This property is roughly an acre in depth and 7 acres long. A bit deeper and shorter, but that is a good approximation. The house itself was built using just 1/2 acre in one corner. And the ground is level, so we can place things anywhere convenient to us and the horses. 

And unlike 12 years ago, we now have some idea of what we are doing with horses! We'd like a good shelter plus a hay shelter at one end of the corral and maybe make the corral a little smaller since we could easily exercise them by simply riding regularly on our own property. Denny Emerson recommends lots of brisk walking as the optimum foundation of a conditioning program. He also recommends listening to tunes or audiobooks while simply riding at a forward walk. Not a fan of riding little circles, but if you can ride 800-1000 feet on two sides of a rectangle....

And there are the dirt roads. Even the paved road 1/4 mile away doesn't get much traffic and has wide shoulders.

The neighbors don't have horses. One neighbor has a 4 acre lot - the legal minimum there. Another has a house on 30 acres. Another doesn't have a house there. They live about a mile away and have 40 acres next to the property they are using to expand their vineyard. That will be a question when we get the well inspection done - how would 30+ acres of grape vines affect the water table? My guess is not too bad, and certainly less than some of the farmland out in the valley (10 miles away) that has the circular, squirt water into the air systems. But I don't know and water is critical.


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## weeedlady

That's exciting @bsms. Fingers crossed it works out for you!


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## gottatrot

That sounds like a great situation if the inspection goes well. It sounds nice to be able to do a fairly long ride sometimes with the other horses still close by. Would make it easier sometimes.
It would be great for you to have the horses with you again. Good to have neighbors with large properties and little traffic.


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## bsms

One of the closest friends of my youngest daughter would like to take Cowboy. He'd be a solitary horse with goats for companions. My farrier says some horses hate goats and others become close friends. Cowboy and Bandit will never be closer than "It isn't worth fighting about" and it would be tempting to just give it a try. If Cowboy and the goats didn't mesh, we could take him back. It isn't as if Cowboy is super happy living with us anyways. Good trail horse but.....

If we end up taking the property we're in escrow for, I'd be tempted to put (keep!) Trooper largely retired, try to get my wife to start riding Bandit, and get a younger, green horse for me. Continuing the idea mentioned on gottattrot's journal about some horses meshing with some riders: Trooper would be a great horse for visiting kids. I think my wife would like Bandit's more interactive personality. He's becoming a Steady Eddie with personality and I think she'd like riding more if she rode a horse who talked to her constantly. And part of me would like to get a green-broke Arabian and start riding him (her?) out. It would be much safer doing so in a place without all the rocks and cactus.


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## bsms

The house we offered on has passed its inspections. Well and house both good. It is a narrow lot, sandwiched in between a 30 acre lot and a 40 acre lot. A panoramic shot today from west swinging thru northeast. Looks MUCH bigger than it is because the neighbor to the north has a 30 acre lot. The actual house itself is just starting to creep into the picture on the right hand side:










The realtor used to have horses. She had a 20' x 30' flat shelter made. Right now the horses have a 12x12 and 10x10 shelter side by side. There is another shelter, but we found what @egrogan found - the odd horse refuses to use it because it is 50 feet away.... So right now they have 244 sq feet. 20x30 would be 600 sq feet which ought to feel like a mansion to them! And the ground is virtually rock & cactus free! Plenty of room to keep Cowboy with us.

Guess a show-stopper could arise, but the odds are starting to look good. 20 miles to the nearest grocery store, though....


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## gottatrot

Exciting news! Sounds like a great horse property.


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## weeedlady

That's exciting @bsms. It sounds very nice. What a view! It's beautiful!

Our new place is 45 miles from the grocery store. It's doable. You just have to plan more carefully. I'm actually spending less because we use what we have on hand. I don't just run to the store for every little thing.


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## carshon

Well grocery stores deliver most items now - and I have never lived close to a store - I live about 15 miles outside of town and plan my trips accordingly. It takes some getting used to but it makes going to town take on even more meaning. Your new property looks beautiful.


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## bsms

The grocery is 22 miles - but the speed limit is 65 or 75 mph almost the entire distance and the only stop light is next to the store. Probably a 20 minute drive. The hospital I used for kidney stones a few months ago is about 300 feet from the grocery store. The church we'd likely use is 9 miles, with a 65 mph speed limit and one stop sign. Lots of miles but not much time. Light traffic most of the way. Our current house is a shorter distance but the traffic and many stoplights (installed in the last 5 years) mean it takes longer to get to a hospital or grocery store.








​The blue circle is roughly where we've lived the last 15 years. Tucson is rapidly filling in the gap. The red circle is roughly where we are trying to buy. It is about 60 miles between the blue and red circles. The black lines are 65 mph roads and the red star is an area with water issues due to Big Ag pumping. Benson has 5,000 people. Willcox has 3,500. Cochise has 50. Can't find a population listing for Pearce. The red circle is about 2,000 feet higher than Tucson.

So it is exciting but still things to do before we can close. And then horse facilities to build and some work we want done inside the house that is best done while the house is empty. The horses need to start learning to get into and out of a trailer NOW so it we won't need to train them the day we need to haul them! If this falls through, we'll keep looking in that area plus St David (1,700 people).

30-40 minutes of trailering would get the horses to the Cochise Stronghold area or the Chiricahua Mtns - 9,759 feet.








But we'd probably hike those areas instead of ride because of how rough the terrain can get.

Yes, I like Arizona enough to try to share it with others. Certainly NOT everyone's cup of tea and I'll gladly try to dissuade folks from moving here! But an interesting place to *visit*, at least.


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## SueC

I'm sure everything will work out in your favour. I remember us making several offers on houses in Denmark, a lovely town, that fell through for one reason or another and we were quite devastated about the last one in that line, it was a cute little tree-house and we'd spent a long weekend there on appro. But that's when we decided to build, and then we found this little farm, and the rest is history, and I'd not trade this for anything else. I keep pinching myself looking around after ten years. We started with 12 hectares of mostly treeless pasture (and 50 hectares of bushland). Ten years later, we've got this:






...and this was after three years of drought. We've had the first generously wet spring in about five years and right now, everything is nearly knee-deep in grass.

Doing all the building and planting ourselves was lots of work, but worth it.

By the way, this clip...






...magnificent. My hair was standing on end.

PS: Two pieces of music written by Europeans who came to and were inspired by the American desert, writing these as a result - and these are also amongst my favourite pieces of music ever (though I have many!). The first one is one best listened to in the dark, on proper speakers, with the sound up and with bare feet. You should be able to feel the reverberations in the music in your bones as it starts to build. 






And one you've probably heard before:


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## SueC

Merry Christmas! 🎄💫


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## bsms

That is a great photo! Thank you!


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## SueC

You're welcome, but not mine!  (Maybe @knightrider trained the horse though? 😜) Found it on the Internet and it reminded me of a conversation when your house was getting too big because your children had flown the nest, when I suggested that maybe the horses could now come in and live with you! 

Anything new on the new house?


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## bsms

New house has passed inspections and we and the seller have agreed on how the mostly cosmetic repairs will be handled. The bank has ordered an appraisal and the seller needs to have the septic system certified. So everything is going very smoothly right now. 3 weeks to closing - we asked for 40 days instead of 30 because of the difficulty in scheduling things over Christmas. Can't really blame COVID on delays because this part of Arizona is not highly concerned with the virus. Most people in the county already live their lives social distancing. Towns are small. The border town of Douglas has some cases but not as many as Nogales and Yuma further west. Not saying it hasn't been affected by the virus but most private business - such as the various inspectors needed when buying property - are working full time. Schools mostly meeting live 4 days a week instead of 5 - guess Friday is their big cleaning day.

So...it is mostly the holidays that make scheduling things hard.

But it is looking good. We'll start having work done on our previous home in January (painting, baseboards, etc). If my oldest daughter doesn't buy it, I want it on the market by February. We're eager to move. The wife is talking about making a greenhouse so we can keep veggies growing. We both like planting trees and want to plant some fruit trees and some pines. Pines grow surprisingly well in southern AZ and don't need much extra water. We've started going to church near there which will help with meeting people.

Following my daughter's divorce this last year, my son & DIL have separated and are likely to divorce. Their two kids have been living with us for the last couple of months (to keep them away from the arguing) and I think we'll end up keeping them for a couple of years. The kids are both very smart but I have no idea where they got their brains. Not from their parents, I'm afraid! They've lived with us for a few months a number of times before and are happy here. They've been in school here (live) unlike all-online where they are from. If they switch schools, the local one near the new place has 100 students in 8 grades and a good reputation, although it closed for live attendance this month due to the virus. They hope to be live again before we can make the move. Or we may home school them. We've done it before.

I'll start "Get in the trailer" training with the horses next week. We've reconfigured the corrals and our horse trailer we've used as a hay shed will work for entering/exiting training. Need to have it checked before hauling. Think the wheel bearings need to be packed and some other minor stuff. I plan to pay someone to move all three at once when we move, but I need to make sure they are good about getting in and out. None of them have been in a trailer since we got them - 11 years for Trooper! But trailering was a regular part of their lives at one time and I'm hoping they still remember. Any training tips or recommended videos will be given close attention....

View out the front. I'm ready to start moving! The open area is supposed to someday be planted with grape vines but they haven't done so during the 10 years the vineyard has owned it:








From the back. Single story, high roof. The home to the far left will our only very close neighbor.








In many ways this is an exciting time, but like all exciting times, it is also stressful. Lots of opportunities on the horizon but opportunities mean work!


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## SueC

Does high roof mean high ceiling? We find that so good in summer here. The view looks great. In Australia, many orchards are in dry country like yours, with trickle irrigation - far less pests that way.

It's good that you're prepared to bail out your grandkids, and since they're smart, you will be sure to have lots of fun along the way. My parents argued from before I was born and stayed together "for the kids" and for the sake of appearances. It's no fun to grow up with your parents constantly disrespecting each other, yelling and being violent all around. Great for the kids to see that marriage doesn't have to be that way, when they're with their grandparents. I never really threw out the idea of marriage as a kid, just because there was such a bad example of it at home - because I knew married people in the community who weren't like that; who were kind and civil and enjoyed each other's company. Those good examples go a long way.


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## gottatrot

Sounds like interesting but stressful times. Too bad about the family troubles, but it's good you can be there for everyone. 

I think homeschooling can be great for smart kids with dedicated parents or grandparents, but of course a lot of work. My siblings and I were homeschooled completely and we all have college degrees and good jobs. But we did have social involvement with church, 4-H and sports. Lots of kids in the neighborhood to play with too.

My horses have sometimes gone several years between trailer rides and still just hopped right in. Of course it will be good to refresh their memories, but I suspect it will be easy. 

We still haven't listed our old house after 5 months, hopefully in the next month or so. But as you said, big changes are stressful and we decided not to make it more stressful by putting a lot of pressure on ourselves. The 5 hr drive one way means we've been only going up to get things ready every several weeks. But trying to have breathers in between.

My point is, don't stress too much, health and rest are important too in busy times. 
Merry Christmas!


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## bsms

I didn't realize, @gottatrot, that you were still dealing with your previous house. And it hadn't hit me that it was a full 5 hour drive! Makes my 50 miles & 50 minutes from old house to (hopefully) new sound pretty minor! We dont have to move in immediately. Need to have horse shelters built, a water line run out and some ground scrapped for the corral. We'll probably go with a slightly smaller corral - maybe 80x80 instead of 100x100? - but a larger shelter. And we can clean to our hearts content before putting any furniture in.

OTOH, it is exciting to think about planting trees in an area where trees normally survive! The ground at our old house is true desert with caliche layers. You can dig a deep hole, plant a tree - and have it die because there was caliche 6 inches deeper preventing root growth. Not to mention digging every hole with a caliche bar! I think the wife will find a garden helps with stress. We planted close to 100 trees at our old place. About 1/4 survived the desert and rocky ground. The dirt wasn't capable of sustaining a garden at our old place.

Me? One of the things I'm looking forward to is going out on a summer night and seeing the stars in a place where the nearest "city" is 5,000 people living 20+ miles away, on the other side of the mountain!


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## egrogan

Just catching up on journals now that my weather woes are over. Very exciting that the new house is looking so promising! All that open - cactus-free - space looks great! 

On the homeschooling front, a lot of states have an online/virtual charter school option which can be very good. That would potentially take some of the pressure off of you and your wife and still give you access to a quality curriculum. They've been doing online schooling since before the rest of the world had to worry about it, and many of them are well regarded. Of course, many aren't, so you need to do your research. But something to consider.


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## bsms

Thank you, @egrogan. We used the Arizona free online program with my youngest daughter for a few years and would be open to using it with the grandkids. There are a lot of resources now online for home schools. Variable quality but I'm pretty sure we could do a better job of teaching math, science, history and literature to them than what they are getting right now. The standards my wife and I have for those subjects are tougher than what the public schools require. And someone with a solid base in those will have no trouble adapting back into school, either at the high school or college level.

We drove around the area this afternoon. The dirt road near the house goes 3 miles north and all of it would be easily used by a horse. Nothing to prevent me from encouraging Bandit to trot and canter much of it, except he's done so little the last 5 years that we would need to approach it as progressive exercise! It runs into another dirt road and the loop would make it 7 miles total length. And safe for a horse to canter anywhere on it. That would be SOOOOOO different from where we live now! Returning south bound on this dirt road:










The hills ahead are the northern edge of the Dragoon Mountains. And about a mile south of where this road crosses the paved road, climbing a little into the hills ahead on the picture above, we encountered this:










That is a small turn around, and everything in the picture is state land going to National Forest land. Don't know if the boundary from state to federal is fenced or not, but the state land by itself would offer fairly challenging off-trail riding! If the National Forest isn't fenced and gated, it might be possible to go as far as the lack of water would allow a horse to go. The turn around is the red corner in this snapshot from Bing Maps, with public land extending 20 mostly waterless miles ahead...










If the goal is physical fitness for a horse, riding there and then simply wandering for an hour or two at a walk would be some very serious hill work! Right now, a dirt road where I could safely (after working up to it) ask Bandit to canter for a mile or more...that sounds like HEAVEN. Well, to me. BANDIT might think it sounds like a different place! But if Denny Emerson is right in saying a brisk walk is great exercise for a horse, and given my caution as I ride in my 60s...it is still looking like a place where Bandit & I could get quality exercise AND sometimes just run for fun. And as someone who is a jogger first and rider second....I'll have no excuse for laziness myself!


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## bsms

PS: Although my wife & I are not youngsters, we both enjoy walking. And the places I could take Bandit? We could go for walks. And the dirt roads would be great places for the grandkids to ride bicycles, and MAYBE I could convince my wife to give one a try. Her knees hurt when she tries to run, but cycling might allow her to save her knees and eventually cover a 7 mile loop of good aerobic exercise!


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## bsms

May be showing my age, but this is on the stereo right now:






And now this:


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## SueC

I notice you have a very sensible car colour for your climate! (...although I know it's a pain when you have to drive down unsealed roads, but an orange car with dirt on it is still a dirty car and to an extent, who cares?) You wouldn't believe how many Australians drive BLACK 4WDs and SUVs. Well more than half of 4WDs and SUVs we see on the road here are black... drivers of "ordinary" cars are a bit better with their colour choices. Oh and, the proclivity for BLACK expensive cars in Australia goes with the proclivity for BLACK rooftiles on the McMansions. It's almost as if they're saying, "We can AFFORD air conditioners, and high electricity bills!" (Poor planet.)

It's nice to see you're going to have some decent riding terrain.

One of the reasons I left education ten years ago is because the standards were continuing to drop, as a result of bureaucratic decisions made. By my last year of teaching, the kids coming into Year 8 (entry-level high school) were 1-2 years behind academically, especially with literacy and numeracy, compared to the Year 8s when I'd started back in the 90s - when Australia was Top Ten for Science education internationally. By 2010, we weren't even Top Twenty anymore, and kids had trouble spelling basic words, adding up and understanding basic concepts, so how could I teach them about hypotheses and controlling variables? It became so much extra work to try to get them up to speed, and I really hated having to slog so hard, in part to make up for other teachers' lack of effective teaching before the kids got to me, to have half a chance of teaching them some serious curriculum. Also, because of this, the bright kids were increasingly left behind.

It was better at the Catholic schools than the State schools still, where many teachers weren't even trying to teach the full curriculum anymore, and classes ran AWOL. Yet when I started, I'd worked in two super State schools with a good work ethic, good discipline and pastoral care system, happy students, happy teachers and very good achievement - and then in a Catholic school like this. Six years later, under new management, the second State school I taught in had become a circus, with kids assaulting each other and teachers, and learning way down - and it never picked up, not for the next ten years anyway (according to colleagues working there - I don't know where it's at now, but it's so hard to get something back from a bad situation - much easier to prevent it from slipping). The Catholic schools resisted the erosion much longer (again, no idea what they're up to now as my ear is no longer to the ground).

I'd unhesitatingly have put my own (hypothetical) kids into the State schools I taught at when I started, ditto the Catholic schools. Under no circumstances would I put them in a State school such as many of them were here when I stopped teaching. It would have been a waste of their time academically and socially, and a lesson in thuggery and playing the system. Under such circumstances, I'd have home schooled, but made sure the children had regular positive peer contact in dance or drama or sports or music groups, etc etc. Nice social groups, no bullying or violence, positive interactions around constructive activities - and also free-range play with other free-range kids.

But I miss the heyday of excellent State school education in a safe environment! That was really great for kids and teachers alike.


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## bsms

Our straight load trailer has done 10 years of service holding hay. But we need to work on getting the horses used to getting in/out of a trailer. Started with Bandit today. Suspicious, but not severely so. His favorite food (hay pellets) went from just inside to further & further. Praise at each attempt to go a little way in, no stigma for backing out. Eventually got him all the way in for a short time. I admit...the trailer looks too small to me. He cannot comfortably get his whole body in unless he puts his head in the small area at the front. Why design a horse trailer so the horse MUST be tightly confined?








Still, for a time, hay pellets on a bed of Bermuda Hay - eat your heart out, Gordon Ramsey - was enough to keep him focused on the pleasures of food. When he started acting like he was tensing up (just beginning to act concerned), I asked him to back out. He did so with no problem and we then fed the horses in the corral.

But he really has very little spare room between the top of his noggin and the trailer top. And in the picture, his butt would have barely cleared a door behind his behind! Are they really supposed to be so cramped? Or do I have a pony trailer?

In any case, I hope to hire someone to move all three together in February. I guess if they can all get good at getting into this cramped trailer, then a nicer one should be easier. First day of trailer training down with adequate success. I want to dedicate 5 days a week to getting them all very content about getting in & out. Not the greatest riding weather right now but certainly fine for trailer training.


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## carshon

Unfortunately some older trailers are not very long and long bodied horses are stuffed into them. I have a slant load trailer now and we haul some larger horses in it. They are a little cramped side to side but can put their heads down if need be.


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## gottatrot

Yes, I think if the horses can load in a tight space like that, they should have no issues with a more open trailer. Sounds like it went great!


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## knightrider

"Why design a horse trailer so the horse MUST be tightly confined?"

Back in the days when I was foxhunting every week, I was taught that you should buy as small a trailer as your horse could comfortably tolerate. If there is a trailer accident, and the horse is in a confined space, he is less likely to be badly hurt. The riders I foxhunted with had lots of anecdotal evidence of this "fact." Luckily I don't know of many people who have had trailer accidents, but it does make sense.  Some of the foxhunters I was talking to knew of trailers that had rolled several times, and if the horses were tightly packed in, they were completely unhurt.


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## bsms

Third day. Bandit has figured out that if he strretcheeeesssss, he can get his lip to any food in the trailer without putting his hind feet into the trailer. He loads like a champ. Except his hind feet. His darn HIPS are in the trailer, but not his hind feet. So I need a different game plan. For Bandit. I was getting frustrated with him, so before I took my frustration OUT on him, I returned him to the corral.

Hmmm...Cowboy has a short wheelbase and loves food. Tried him. Like Bandit, he followed me in no trouble. Front feet. Smelled the hay pellets. Couldn't reach the hay pellets with his rear feet outside. Sighed. Then brought his rear feet in, moved all the way forward, and ate hay pellets while I scratched his withers and told him what a smart pony he is. When done, I returned him to the corral. He felt for the end of the trailer with one hoof, then back out without trouble.

Thinking about it: Bandit's previous owner had a trailer with a ramp. Bandit just doesn't like his rear feet being near the edge. I have established an excellent "Follow Me!" habit in him. But not a "Go ahead without me!" one. One option I'm considering: Use the front window for my wife to offer Bandit carrots - something even better than hay pellets - but at just enough distance he'll have to get his back feet in. The other option is to work on a "Go forward" cue instead of a Follow Me cue. That will take some time.

Another option is to try Trooper. Trooper and Cowboy get along fine, and many years ago, Trooper DID use trailers with no ramp. Maybe let Trooper see Cowboy is eating, and then let him try going in to eat too?

I'm certain Bandit would follow me into a 3 horse trailer. Getting him used to squeezing into the 2 horse may be a challenge. But....he'll FOLLOW me fine, and I'll admit, why WOULD he want to go some place I'm not willing to go?


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## gottatrot

Amore has always had that philosophy. "You go first."


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## bsms

Yes. I need an escape door that takes me straight out the front....

;>)

Seriously, a stock trailer would allow ME to get far enough forward that I think he'd come all the way inside. As it is, I'm left standing at his shoulder trying to get him to stick his head into a small space - while I stand back: "_You want me to do WHAT, human? While you WATCH?_":








The first day we had the trailer as an extension of the corral. Bandit was chewing at things, so on the second day we moved it. My oldest daughter took this picture before we got there on the second day:









_"Don't worry folks! I can eat fine just like this!"_​
If/when we move, and get our current house sold, the wife & I both want to buy a truck that can carry 5+ people AND haul at least 6000 lbs. Minimum. A three horse trailer would be nice.


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## weeedlady

Raven will get on my two horse bumper pull without me going first.
With Tucker, I have to lead him all the way in. Not safe, I know, and we work on it sporadically. So Tucker always gets loaded first, giving me room to get out past him.

I had him "almost" self loading at one point. I used a lunge line, ran it through the front escape door and back to the back. I could encourage him to load by pulling on the line without leaving him alone back there. If I had kept at it we would have gotten it. But I got lazy.


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## bsms

Finished a 3-4 mile run. 70 degrees and sunny. Beautiful. But I doubt I'll do much riding before we move. The desert is beat down from the drought. It is depressing to see the prickly pear turning yellow. And a bit pointless to practice twisting between the cactus when, hopefully, by mid-Spring we can ride this:









First hiccup, though. The bank won't be able to get the appraisal done on time so they've asked for a one week slip in closing. But things still seem to be progressing. The riding I hope to do will be very different from what I've done for the last 12 years. It will feel like a different world:









It is DIRT, not ROCK. And this is the paved road, about 2 miles west of the house, heading east. Very little traffic and wide shoulders - unheard of around where I've lived the last 15 years! And from the picture, the road goes on much the same for 10 miles, gradually descending into the valley.










I don't see any reason we couldn't ride beside the road. So one of my New Year's resolutions will be to try to get Bandit up to doing 6-8 mile rides with a mixture of W/T/C. Three times a week. That would be a lot more miles than we are doing now.

Another is to try to get my running back to the 5 mile mark, 4-5 days a week. I won't get the same speed back, and I was never fast. About a 7:30/mile for 5 miles in my 40s. Would like to get to an 8 minute mile, but REALLY want to get back to doing 5 mile long runs. Again, no reason I can see for not running beside the paved road - and there are miles of gentle slope, very light traffic and good shoulders.


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## Knave

I think that’s fast! I am still convinced my treadmill is calibrated wrong... but my miles are super slow on it. Off of it, when I first started, I was still only running in the 9minutes on a good run. I’d assume I’m faster now, but the treadmill lies! Lol. I want to say I know this because my oldest won the record of the mile at school, and yet it says she is running 10 minute miles too; she is uber fast. Definitely calibrated wrong...

I think your goals are great ones! Difficult on the running, but the riding should be an attainable and fun goal!


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## bsms

The link below is to the Army Field Manual for the Cavalry (1939):

http://www.easy39th.com/files/FM_25-5_Animal_Transport_1939.pdf

A sample of their advice:

Page 48:

70. Conditioning.-a. Conditioning is continued along the
same general lines as during the first period. The object is to
fit the remount eventually for field service. This service imposes
two major requirements upon the horse: first, that he is
able to march long distances day after day; second, that he is
able to carry, while marching, the weight of the rider and his
equipment.

b. (1) To be fit for marching, the horse must have three
essentials: first, good feet; second, good legs; and third, good
flesh.

(2) Good feet result from close attention to shoeing and
trimming, their inspection each day, and the maintenance of
clean, level standings.

(3) Leg injuries usually result from fast work, particularly
on hard or uneven ground. A too hurried training is hard on
joints and tendons. Many remounts are prone to interfere,
especially while becoming accustomed to carrying weight.
During this period it is important to watch for signs of interference
on the horse's legs and protect the injured places by
proper bandaging or boots.

(4) Good flesh is secured and retained by long, daily periods
of slow work. During this work the walk is the gait principally
used. In addition to long periods of slow work it is important 
to give close attention to the feeding, watering, grooming,
and bedding. Every effort should be made to build up
the flesh of the thin remounts by increasing their grain and
hay ration, by providing them with plenty of good drinking
water, and by increasing the number of grain feeds per day.

c. To fit the remount for carrying his heavy load in the
field *it is necessary that the flesh and skin of his back be*
*seasoned and toughened to withstand heavy pressure, heat, and
sweat. The back muscles must be developed and strengthened*
*for their weight-carrying job*. To accomplish these results,
the load to be carried by the remount should be gradually
increased until he is capable of carrying a rider and full
field equipment.

71. To improve carriage and action of the remount at the
walk, the trot, and the gallop.-

a. During the first period the
remount is allowed to stretch out his head and neck to the
front, the rider being careful only to keep the reins lightly
stretched. No attempt is made, by means of the reins and
legs, to gather the horse or to cause him to assume a correct
attitude while in movement.

b. With the beginning of the second period, the improvement
of the carriage and action of the horse at the walk, the trot,
and the gallop should be started. Very gradually he should
be brought to carry the head and neck properly and to engage
the hindquarters. This adds to his handiness and balance
and leads to his easier acceptance of guidance and control....


Page 133:

134. Exercise and conditioning.-a. Animals are considered
to be in fit condition when the body and muscular organs perform
without injury the work required. Fit condition is accomplished
by systematic exercise and feeding, which must
be continued even after the condition has been attained. 

Endurance, stamina, a good state of flesh, and resistance to disease
are necessary. These qualities can be attained only by
intelligent feeding and long periods of conditioning work at
the slower gaits, largely the walk. The riding animal must
be conditioned to carry the weight of full field equipment.

D. The exercise must be regular and graduated and always
within the limits of the animal's strength. Working tired
animals when unfit is very likely to cause accidents or disease.

c. If animals are not worked for any considerable time the
process of conditioning must be repeated. The minimum
amount of systematic exercise necessary to maintain animals
in working condition is 2 hours daily. It is not desirable to
maintain animals at all times at the peak of condition for
field duty, but rather to have them in such condition that a
relatively short period of carefully scheduled work will put
them in fit condition for the anticipated duty.

d. The kind and amount of exercise given to animals depend
upon the work they are to perform, the condition of the
animals, and the number of men available to give the exercise.


f. Any form of exercise should begin with a period of 10 or
15 minutes at a walk so that good circulation may be established. 
It should end at a walk in order that animals may
be returned to the stables dry and breathing normally. Dirt
roads should be used habitually for exercise, with only enough
work on hard roads to accustom the animals to traveling on
them. When one man is exercising two horses he should ordinarily
ride one out and the other in, and he should lead
each horse alternately on his right and left. Playful or vicious
animals should be led with a very short rein to prevent
accidents.
g. The walk Is the prime conditioning gait. *Walking develops*
*muscle, while trotting and galloping develop wind, but
if either of the faster gaits is used to excess the animal will*
*lose rather than gain condition*. The troop horse gets enough
fast galloping during the training of men and maneuvering,
and his exercise should be carried out at the walk and trot.
The length of trot periods must be suited to the condition of
the animal but in no case should they exceed 7 minutes.

...d. Formation.-(1) Marching mounted troops on both sides
of the road promotes the comfort of the horse and rider.
Riding animals should keep off hard-surface roads if suitable
footing is available at the sides of the road. Vehicles should
always keep to the firmest and most even part of the road.

(2) If the military situation permits, commands should
march with sufficient distance between subordinate units to
allow the dust to settle or blow away and to take advantage
of terrain conditions for appropriate changes of gait.

e. Halts.-(1) A halt of 10 or 15 minutes should be made
at the end of the first 45 minutes of marching to permit
troops to relieve themselves, adjust equipment, and inspect
shoeing, loading, etc. Subsequently a halt of 5 or 10 minutes
should be made hourly....

...(3) At halts, animals should be permitted to graze. During
long halts, saddles, packs, and harness should be removed.
Pack animals should be relieved of their pack loads at every
opportunity. At each hourly halt, saddles and packs should
be adjusted, men working in pairs. Feet should be examined
at each halt for evidence of loose shoes or rocks lodged in the
feet. Officers and noncommissioned officers should inspect the
animals of their unit at each halt.​


----------



## Knave

That is very interesting!


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## bsms

Typed this up for another thread:

The Soldier's Mount (Col Frank Tompkins in "Chasing Villa") reported to his superiors:

_This service showed that the compactly built horse stood the campaign much better than the tall, leggy type. Our horses never even got half feed and it was a constant effort to keep the big ones on the job. The little fellows also did better in the mountains and the rough places. The cavalry horse should be an animal low on his legs, of full form, one that when in low flesh does not show it - a horse whose bone, muscular development, energy and reserve power are denoted by a certain balance not often seen in horses over 15 hands 2 inches. The height of the cavalry horse should range between 14-2 and 15-2.

I cannot leave this subject of cavalry mounts without a tribute to my little horse Kingfisher. At the time of this campaign he was four years old, 14 hands and three inches high and when in hard flesh weighed a little under 800 lbs. He was an Arabian stallion with some of the best Arab blood in his veins...

This little horse crossed the international boundary line into Mexico march 15, 1916 in pursuit of Villa and his outlaw band.

From March 15th to March 26th he was ridden 219 miles, and from March 31st to April 12th 362 miles, across the deserts, over the mountains, and through the waterless wastes of Northern Chihuahua, carrying his rider, food for man and horse, in addition to the usual pack and officer must take when operating far from the base or line of communications; a load well over 200 lbs.

After marching 219 miles in eleven days [20 miles/day] on less than half forage, on March 31st he led a small band of horsemen in a dash after Villa which ended in the fight at Parral on April 12th, covering the distance of 362 miles in 13 days. [28 miles/day] In this drive he had but little grain, and that corn which he had never before eaten, no hay and what dead grass he could get during the night while tethered to a short chain. He negotiated the snows of the mountain passes, he sweated through the noon-day heat of the lower levels, and he shivered at night from the icy winds of these high altitudes.

He never showed any signs of fatigue, never lost courage, and was a constant inspiration to his rider. He lost but little flesh, always moved with a quick springy step with head and tail alertly raised, animated and watchful. In battle he was fearless, being quite content to keep on the firing line without fuss or objection.

From April 22nd to June 9th he was ridden 300 miles but under better conditions than he experienced previous to April 12th. He went lame but once due to a thorn in the frog, but he did his work just the same. He was never sick and he was always ready.
----------------------------------------------_
The terrain varied from sea level to 10,000 feet MSL. They were sometime able to buy corn for their mounts. The corn was mixed with rocks and sticks, so at night the cavalryman had to spread it on a blanket, pick out the garbage, and only then feed it to his horse. He also slept in the blanket used for riding...


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## SueC

How's moving panning out, @bsms? Are you packing yet? We found that living in a place for a long time tends to lead to the accumulation of a lot of useless objects "just in case we need this later" - we don't generally buy useless objects (sometimes you think something is useful and then it turns out not to be though) but you get gifts etc, and then there's packaging stuff like crates, which can actually be turned into outdoors furniture (and I have)...

(Man, that was clean when it was new! 😮 Might be time to give this stuff a scrub again!)

...made from solar panel packing and general offcuts:


Anyway, it's amazing what goes to recycling, charity and other homes during a move. We've been in the same place since 2013 now and found we have to have a mucking-out again. We started with clothes last year - giving heaps of things to op-shops, that we were no longer wearing... sadly I have no huge requirement for my lovely professional wardrobe anymore (am just keeping favourite pieces), plus the sleeves on lots of things are too tight on me since we plastered the house and I started trimming horse hooves regularly again...

How've you been doing at the modern problem of avoiding unnecessary items, and re-homing things you no longer need?


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## bsms

@SueC , when we moved from our 2700 sq ft house to the 1800 sq ft rental home, my oldest daughter had a huge trash bin brought to the house. 3,000 lbs of "stuff" went away. Probably 2500 lbs NEEDED to go away, although some stuff that should have been saved went too. My wife grew up extremely poor in the Philippines and hates throwing anything away. But our home is furnished in Early American Craigslist and the truth is many of our daily clothes are so unfashionable that no one wants them. It was a bitter time for my wife who hates the idea of ANYTHING going into the trash.

We hope to close in 9 days and I'll start moving stuff as soon as I can. We're packing china (we once lived in England) and I'll start packing books this weekend. 

More important will be scheduling work for the horse shelter and corral. My oldest daughter has done a barely acceptable job of caring for the horses. They aren't abused but I'll be glad to have them living in our yard again, fed by us and exercised again. But we don't have access to the property yet and need to decide exactly WHERE to put the corral, find someone to run an underground water pipe to there, clear scrub brush and trees and get a decent shelter erected ASAP. Meanwhile we're trying to get work done on our previous house so we can put it on the market. I have zero handyman skills. Wish that wasn't true, but I can't afford to practice on a home I want to sell in weeks.

We still have our grandkids living with us. Looks like it may go into or past this summer but the parents haven't even filed for divorce yet. Neither one is willing to take the steps needed to provide daily care for two young kids but neither wants to sign them over to us. So....between houses, with both the old one and the next one needing work. Horses need trailer training and a place prepared. Kids with an unknown future. Feels like everything is up in the air. God willing, by summer much of this WILL resolve itself, but it has been a tough 6 months and it isn't likely to settle soon. The wife & I often find ourselves lying awake at 3 AM trying to figure out what to do next.

On a positive note, we found out the new house is actually in the same school district (Benson). There is a bus stop 1/2 mile from the new house. Not bad since were 25 miles from the school. But the kids LIKE going to school and this district HAS stayed open with in person classes. That is rare in America this year! So we can move and the kids will stay in their same classes. They have had too much turmoil and it is nice that they can keep a few things constant in the midst of near constant change!

And we MAY have found a church to go to. May. It can take a month or two to get an idea if we are compatible with a new church. It is in Willcox, 25 miles away, but it would be a 23 minute drive in very light traffic. Most of the folks seem to be ranchers. Not the Pseudo Cowboy Churches one can find around Tucson, but a church that happens to have a lot of farm/ranch people. We'll have a better idea after this Sunday. We both feel a need to get away from TV & radio and concentrate on family, nature, maybe a garden, horses, dogs, exercise for all of us, walking in the evenings, etc. Maybe we're getting old, or maybe we're getting really tired of people.


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## bsms

Don't know if Australia has a Craigslist. This link is for horses near Tucson ( tucson farm & garden - by owner "horse" - craigslist ). My wife likes to find furniture that costs $50. All I care about it that it works, but it is tough to rehome furniture that we often get nearly for free and then have used another 5-10 years. The sweater I'm wearing right now has some moth holes but it is warm wool and it isn't as if I'm a male model, so....but used clothing like it doesn't even meet Goodwill standards sometimes.


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## gottatrot

That sounds like a ton of stress and lots of work. Be sure to take it easy sometimes and relax. DH and I feel that it is super important to maintain your sanity and find moments of peace when going through these things.

We are the same about furniture and clothes. It does save a person quite a lot of money. Our couch was free from my sister, and it is an upgrade from our last couch which was $50 from a garage sale. That one finally had to go when we moved because it was made of an ideal material for the cats to use as a scratching post, and the stuffing was hanging out the sides. By the time we are done with furniture it usually is fit for the dump. 

My grandpa used to love making furniture, so both of our dressers are his creations. Of course they don't match each other, but we put them in the closet anyway. We don't usually like the quality of Ikea furniture, but we have bookcases from there that are quite sturdy and look decent. 

Clothes...I hate clothes shopping as much as I like buying saddles. DH has clothes from long before we met, more than 22 years ago. I'll wear the same shirts for years, as some may have noticed in my horse pictures. My sister cut a hole in one of my shirts cutting my hair a few years ago. I sewed it closed and still wear it. Being a slob is nothing to be proud of I guess, but clothes wear out too fast, which means you have to shop for new ones at least every decade. Super annoying when you could be using that time to ride.


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## bsms

I may have spent too much time in the military. I used to do tax work in the spring and needed to dress up for that. Otherwise, T-shirts and blue jeans, plus sweatshirts or one of my old leather coats does the job just fine. Long sleeve cotton shirts to cover up from the summer sun and a hat. Shopping for clothes is best done in bulk: My T-shirts are ripping, so dump them and buy 12 replacements. Wear them until they start ripping, then....

A lot of this painful uncertainty will start to resolve if we close on the house. Still waiting for an appraisal (due yesterday). Once we own it (assuming things go thru), we can start getting ready for the horses and will be so darn busy for 4-6 weeks that sleeping won't be a problem. By summer we could be in a good position. But 2020 was an insane year for just about everybody! Hope 2021 goes better.


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## bsms

Another COVID odd fact:

A lady we know (age 70) had a couple of visitors staying with her. One had the sniffles. She took her to the hospital and she tested positive. So they took the other woman to the hospital, and she also tested positive. Our friend offered to let them prolong their visit until healthy, since travelling with active COVID is obviously discouraged. She lived with them through quarantine. took them to outpatient treatments. No masks. Happily, both recovered fully and now are fine. And our friend, after quarantining with two COVID-positive people....has now tested negative. Twice. Didn't catch it. That makes 4 cases now where I know someone who had COVID, who quarantined with someone else (3 with spouses, 1 with 2 friends), and the healthy person did not catch it. It seems surprisingly hard to catch for some part of the population, while a different part seems to catch it almost by magic. Of course, how do you know which part of the population you are in?


----------



## whisperbaby22

I have wondered also, I would be interested in any research into how easily those of us who live with animals could catch it.


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## gottatrot

More science is needed! It would be very helpful to know what makes some people more resistant to catching it. There is something genetic involved perhaps. A nurse I work with was on a Covid unit where an older woman and both of her sons died from it. They were having a high survival rate on that unit. Of course something can seem genetic but actually be environmental.


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## bsms

*COVID RANT*​
Something I find frustrating is the reluctance of government bodies to explore treatment options. If we cannot stop the spread, can we make it less dangerous?

Treatment with HCQ became politicized when Trump mentioned it as a possibility. The UK stopped investigating it based on a report that has since been retracted. Studies in North America have been 4 times more likely to say it doesn't work than studies around the rest of the world. Does that reflect higher standards of studies in NA? Or does it reflect how political things have become? My gut feel from reading is that it was oversold in the beginning, but that the reaction to it became overly negative due to politics. But there isn't much evidence that it is HARMFUL either - not with it being used around the world for malaria. I took it in Afghanistan, IIRC. For 7 months.

Ivermectin? Cheap, readily available. I've got a bunch of human sized doses with apple flavor sitting in my truck. Third world countries claim it is helping. Oxford is just starting a major study (a year later) which hopefully will give high quality data on its effectiveness - or not! But given for brief periods of time, it is very well tolerated by humans. So...what would have been the harm in exploring it when it first showed some signs of promise? If it won't HARM anything, why the reluctance to try?

Vitamin D seems to be helpful. Vitamin D supplements may not be. But higher levels of vitamin D in the blood are associated with much better outcomes. Of course, there could be some other factor which boosts both vitamin D levels AND boost protection against COVID...but why the reluctance to try? Oxford (way to go, UK!) is studying it. But we know 4,000 iu is well tolerated indefinitely by humans and costs a few pennies a day.

Baby aspirin is another, now being studied at....you guessed it, Oxford.

I realize all these may prove to be worthless when examined in large scale trials. But why has it taken so long to BEGIN large scale trials when it would be easy to recruit a million people who already take vitamin D supplements and compare what happens with a million who do not? Island countries like Australia and New Zealand and Japan can put a lot of emphasis on preventing COVID from reaching their shores. North America, Europe and Africa cannot. I'm glad we had "Operation Warp Speed" and heavy funding for vaccines, but why not use a full court press and experiment with multiple strategies that cost almost nothing, are highly unlikely to have negative impacts, and that seem to be showing some promise? Do so, knowing in advance that 80% of them may be no more effective than a placebo.

Suppose we find next summer that ivermectin can reduce fatal cases by 20%. 20% of 400,000 dead in the US would be 80,000 alive. 10% would be 40,000 alive.

Happily, no one in my immediate family has lost a job yet. Most are military or work in transportation. And since arriving here, our two grandkids have been going to school in person 4 days a week. And I'm retired and live my life in semi-isolation anyways. But it seems the only options the US government wants to look at are the ones that cost - and make someone - a lot of money.

RANT OVER. *I've been affected far less than millions all around the world. I have much to be thankful for.*

Here is a website that allows one to look at a wide variety of studies involving various medicines: Vitamin D for COVID-19: real-time analysis of all 54 studies One can click on individual studies and see a summary and find the full citation if you want to see more. The banner across the top allows one to select various optional treatments. Some of the citations include direct links to the full original study, such as https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-81419-w.pdf

Oxford is running multiple trials. They update things here:





__





News — RECOVERY Trial







www.recoverytrial.net





PS: As with many health issues, I'm certain genetics plays a large role in outcomes. Like the old joke says, "_If you want to live long, start by picking your parents wisely!_"


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## trailhorserider

My neighbor (in her mid to late 70's) just died of Covid a couple of weeks ago. They DID try ivermectin on her. She still died. I don't know all the in's and out's of it........maybe it does help a certain amount of people, but it's no miracle cure. She still died. Her husband recovered. Why one did well and not the other........who knows.

I would just be happy if I could get my parent's signed up for a Covid vaccine. We are in Navajo County and it's been harder than hell to get a vaccine for a person over 65 with serious health issues. I've all but given up on ever being able to access a shot myself (I'm in my 40's). I do all the shopping for my folks and just pray I don't bring Covid home with me. I would feel so much better if they could get vaccinated. I go onto that *&[email protected]$!! website at least twice a day and still can't get a spot, much less two or three spots.

Anyway, I do know in certain circumstances they ARE trying ivermectin.


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## bsms

For a short time there was a website showing where a person fell on Arizona's priority list for a vaccine. I fell in the bottom 15%. Begs the question: If 50% of Arizonans refuse to take it, will it EVER be given to me? The lady who hosted two COVID people through quarantine doesn't want to take it. She used to sell drugs for a pharmacological company and is more knowledgeable about these things than I am - but I'll take the vaccine if I'm ever allowed to do so. I was vaccinated for everything under the sun during 25 years in the military. I figure I'm not too likely to grow a third ear or anything. My wife, however - a former RN - doesn't want to take it. Tough choices.

Don't think there are miracle cures. The guy I knew who died with COVID had a massive heart attack 10 years earlier. Was told then he'd be lucky to live 5 more years. Did COVID aggravate it? Very possibly. But would ANY drug have saved him? Maybe not. PROBABLY not. He was asymptomatic until sudden collapse and loss of consciousness - consistent with a heart attack. But it isn't fair to say COVID was not part of his death, either. Lots of gray areas and no easy answers.

"_Last Updated: January 14, 2021

*Recommendation*_

_The COVID-19 Treatment Guidelines Panel (the Panel) has determined that *currently there are insufficient data to recommend either for or against the use of ivermectin for the treatment of COVID-19*. Results from adequately powered, well-designed, and well-conducted clinical trials are needed to provide more specific, evidence-based guidance on the role of ivermectin for the treatment of COVID-19._"









Ivermectin | COVID-19 Treatment Guidelines


Review clinical data on the use of ivermectin for the treatment of COVID-19.



www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov





I believe prior to 14 January, they recommend it NOT be used. One of the problems is that COVID has a very high survival rate for most people: 99.98% or higher for those below 50. 99.5% for those 50-70. So it requires a huge sample size to determine statistical significance in survival rates. And what might help a young person, for example, could make things WORSE for an older, frailer person. So it is a tough challenge.


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## knightrider

I was able to get my first shot and am scheduled for the second one on Feb. 12. I signed up the "other grandmother" who is raising my grandchildren, and she wasn't home when they called her to get her shot. She has tried and tried to get her first shot and so far, has not. If she gets sick, we lose the grandkids because I cannot raise 4 kids ages 6,5,4,3. I am desperate for her to get her shot.


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## SueC

Here's some articles that you might find interesting:









A gout drug shows promise for Covid-19, but skeptics worry about trusting science by press release


Outside experts said the data, provided by press release, were too limited to draw conclusions, though they hoped that colchicine, a generic medicine with manageable side effects, would prove to be beneficial for Covid-19.




www.statnews.com













What's the harm in using existing medications to treat COVID-19?


There are existing medications and treatments that seem to show some promise and have already been evaluated for safety. So why not just greenlight these? What are the potential downsides to this approach?




www.abc.net.au













Drugs for tapeworm, vertigo among possible COVID-19 treatments


Australian researchers join a global effort to develop potential treatments as the world waits for a comprehensive vaccine rollout.




www.abc.net.au





Prevention, of course, is better than cure, and I'm glad to live in Australia, whose public health response has been close to spot on. We're largely not having to live with this virus, and our current position is a lot more economically sustainable than if it ran rampant through the community like it is in the US, UK and large parts of Europe. I'm not sure what can be done once the horse has bolted, but here, it's never bolted, and when it threatened to in Victoria with a second wave, they sat on it for three months with an extended lockdown and got community transmission back to close to zero. It's been contained enough here to be mostly manageable by quarantining and contact tracing; good community cooperation with health protocols (social distancing, hygiene, masks in enclosed environments and during community transmission) has been very helpful. Taiwan and NZ, ditto. We can't live with open borders (international, but also state, and sometimes region) while this virus is a thing; we're learning to live in our local communities again, and to make that work economically, in this handful of nations. And in theory, you don't have to be an island to do it (and the UK spectacularly failed to do it, unlike Taiwan etc). Also in practice, if you look at Vietnam etc.

It's all also a really good learning opportunity for other pandemics, which with the current human population density, pre-pandemic huge global mobility and stressed ecosystems, isn't going to be another 100 years in the making. And the next one may have a far higher fatality rate.

Vitamin D, I've been on since I broke my foot, since I realised that many of us are borderline deficient from sun avoidance now - and for over a decade we've been into the coldsore prevention treatment (VitC, zinc, lysine) whenever there's any kind of respiratory virus floating around. Even more important, of course - overall decent nutrition, enough sleep and exercise, looking after mental/emotional health, and yes, (bubble) cuddles:









Lost touch: how a year without hugs affects our mental health


Humans are designed to touch and be touched – which is why so many who live on their own have suffered during the pandemic. Will we ever fully recover?




www.theguardian.com


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## bsms

Thanks for all the reading, @SueC. This stuff fascinates the former biologist in me. It also interests me from a public policy view point....and my growing cynicism about government's relations with business. BUT - it IS a very difficult challenge for anyone to deal with. Don't care what political party, etc - there are so many unknowns and unknowables, perhaps. And it is easy for me to get disgruntled, but the folks making the calls have a much tougher time. If THEY screw up, people die. If I screw up, I'm just a retired old fart no one needs to mind.....


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## SueC

One of the really sad side-effects of the pandemic has been that it has profited billionaires significantly and is again driving the gap between ridiculously rich and dirt-poor further apart:









Billionaires add $1tn to net worth during pandemic as their workers struggle


Companies’ attempts at hazard pay have been paltry and fleeting as employees are threatened for protesting working conditions




www.theguardian.com





In Australia this billionaire feast has been even worse than in the US:









Australia's billionaires became 50% richer during pandemic


Combined wealth rises by 52.4% in the past year – ‘turbocharging’ inequality




www.theguardian.com





It's been offset here by quite generous unemployment pay, which got doubled during the pandemic, because otherwise a whole lot of mortgages would have defaulted and people would have been unable to afford accommodation (expensive even to rent in many parts of Australia, including its capital cities and regional centres, such as our own) - but of course, cynically speaking, because with all the layoffs, the unemployed were now a large enough fraction of the population for their votes to be important... 

...and guess who's gonna pay this bill in the end - that's right, ordinary people's taxes, not the people who profited from the pandemic... those people do creative accounting and mostly avoid paying tax altogether... which is a big part of the problem.


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## gottatrot

SueC said:


> One of the really sad side-effects of the pandemic has been that it has profited billionaires significantly and is again driving the gap between ridiculously rich and dirt-poor further apart:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Billionaires add $1tn to net worth during pandemic as their workers struggle
> 
> 
> Companies’ attempts at hazard pay have been paltry and fleeting as employees are threatened for protesting working conditions
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In Australia this billionaire feast has been even worse than in the US:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Australia's billionaires became 50% richer during pandemic
> 
> 
> Combined wealth rises by 52.4% in the past year – ‘turbocharging’ inequality
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's been offset here by quite generous unemployment pay, which got doubled during the pandemic, because otherwise a whole lot of mortgages would have defaulted and people would have been unable to afford accommodation (expensive even to rent in many parts of Australia, including its capital cities and regional centres, such as our own) - but of course, cynically speaking, because with all the layoffs, the unemployed were now a large enough fraction of the population for their votes to be important...
> 
> ...and guess who's gonna pay this bill in the end - that's right, ordinary people's taxes, not the people who profited from the pandemic... those people do creative accounting and mostly avoid paying tax altogether... which is a big part of the problem.


Right, exactly. Most of the things they do make no sense. For example, some nurses I know have been flying places, and they say in the airport it is very strict that everyone stays 6 ft apart. However on the airplane, they sit people close together as usual and say that is safe. So it all comes down to money. 

Around here, small businesses have had to close off and on, being "non-essential." Yet huge shopping centers are kept open. Restaurants have been protesting because as they say, none of the spread has been linked to them. They take reservations, sit people far apart, require masks, and sanitize everything between customers. You can go to a big shopping center and mill around with lots of people but you can't to sit in a controlled environment. The very small stores seem the safest, but those are the ones that are being forced out of business. Meanwhile, Amazon has everything we need and we all are buying online. Soon those will be massive monopolies that no one can control. We will not have options locally, and they will be able to tell us it will take two months to get our product, send it by the slowest shipping possible, and we won't be able to complain since they will own the market.


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## bsms

Although I'm conservative, I find some common ground with Bernie Sanders. I mentioned the Buzzard theory before. I think I'd now say, instead of left or right, that Big Business and Big Government are the two wings of one buzzard. I get incredibly frustrated that WalMart can be open the entire pandemic while almost every small business is under tight restriction. And in some states, WalMart could be open 24 hours but a church built for 1,000 could only have 10-25 people inside. Don't get me wrong. I find huge churches bizarre. I'm more a "50 people or less" kind of guy and increasingly sympathetic to home churches. But...why are churches and small businesses "bad" and big businesses "good"? If Amazon can operate its enormous warehouse at 100% capacity, with workers running around 24/7, the why can't a Thai restaurant open at 50% capacity for 6 hours?

An interesting take on business and government can be found in "The Myth of the Robber Barons: A New Look at the Rise of Big Business in America".

BTW, the house purchase has fallen apart. Some information came to light Sunday that resulted in us cancelling our offer Monday. Worst case, we'll lose our earnest money. That will be up to the title company. But based on what we learned, it might have been impossible to keep the horses there. Far better to lose $1,000 earnest money than to buy a horse property where horses might not actually be allowed. It was a bitter blow to us and we're at a loss for what to do next. We had started packing and now have no where to go. I'd rather not discuss the details. I doubt I could be fair to all sides and an unbalanced description would not be helpful. This link played a part. I'll leave it at that:





__





NPMS Public Viewer







pvnpms.phmsa.dot.gov


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## egrogan

Really sorry to read this update @bsms. But I suppose you're right, better for info to come to light now rather than when you're already there. I couldn't get the specific link you posted to load, but knowing the big picture purpose of the website, seems like a lucky break nonetheless.


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## SueC

First of all, I'm really sorry to hear that the house deal fell through. We know what that feels like, because before we moved to our farm and built our own house, we'd made an offer on a place we'd really liked, and had spent a weekend in it to "test-drive" it (it was being used as a holiday house while on the market), and it was a house we could really envisage living our lives in. It was like a tree-house; two-storey and with windows in all the right places and cute design inside and out, and right in the wet forest, in little Denmark, in a gorgeous neighbourhood. So that really disappointed us... and we still sometimes wonder what our lives would be like now, had that offer been accepted! (like a parallel universe!)

But, the farm turned out to be more magical than the place we would have liked to buy before that, and I hope that what you end up with will be even better in the end, than the place that didn't come through for you. It's all annoying and depressing right now, and a headache, of course, but hopefully a year from now you can laugh, and know you're somewhere even better.

(See? That's not like Job's friends, now, is it? 😜 Of course, I'll have egg on my face if you end up in a complete hovel. Chances of that are pretty low though, since you are exercising your agency and have presumably got a list of non-negotiable criteria... 🙃)




bsms said:


> I mentioned the Buzzard theory before. I think I'd now say, instead of left or right, that Big Business and Big Government are the two wings of one buzzard.


I think that's completely spot on! Have you taken out copyright on this metaphor? Because if not, I think I'm going to start using it a lot! 🥳




> I get incredibly frustrated that WalMart can be open the entire pandemic while almost every small business is under tight restriction. And in some states, WalMart could be open 24 hours but a church built for 1,000 could only have 10-25 people inside. Don't get me wrong. I find huge churches bizarre. I'm more a "50 people or less" kind of guy and increasingly sympathetic to home churches. But...why are churches and small businesses "bad" and big businesses "good"? If Amazon can operate its enormous warehouse at 100% capacity, with workers running around 24/7, the why can't a Thai restaurant open at 50% capacity for 6 hours?


We had an initial lockdown here in WA at the start of the pandemic, just in case the virus had gotten in - and it had, through the mismanagement of the Ruby Princess cruise ship in Sydney, where all 2000 passengers were let off the ship without testing or quarantine despite respiratory symptoms. (Contact tracers were kept very busy by that debacle.) Several of these travellers ended up positive and spreading it to family members in WA before being picked up and isolated, but they managed to nip it in the bud, and we've never had documented community transmission outside of to family members, here in WA, and no documented community transmission at all for months now (still cases in quarantine for returned travellers).

Anyway, during our initial lockdown, we were locked into small regions outside which we couldn't travel without permit, and were allowed out for essentials shopping, exercise and medical attention only. But, every store selling groceries was allowed open, not just Coles or Woolworths (our big two). Every pharmacy; and also all restaurants were allowed to operate as take-aways or even as greengrocers (since they had fresh supplies they needed to sell, with the customer downturn). Eventually they loosened restrictions to include other shops, using the same public health protocol. They were actually limiting the number of people who could go into major supermarkets and shopping centres, to avoid overcrowding (_every_ shop had the 4 square metre per person rule for maximum admissions) - people had to wait in a socially distanced line outside, and it was one person in only to shop, not the whole household - unless there were supervision issues with young children, who couldn't be left alone in cars. They also had extended opening hours, with special times every day for pensioner shopping where nobody else was allowed in but them, to try to keep the vulnerable safer. Lots of good ideas like that, and good public support of the measures.

When we had a good idea of what was going on in the community with ramped-up testing, they relaxed restrictions (finding no community transmission, the majority of the time) - but not until then, and not until contact tracers could deal with any potential problems with the virus getting out of quarantine etc (happened a couple of times and was stamped out again quickly and without further general lockdown here, but with other restrictions at times).

The whole of our community is back at work, under new protocols - social distancing etc continues, mask wearing on public transport etc, 2-4 sqm per person in venues (and homes, for visitors) depending on what's going on with testing, crowd size limits (and that's despite no documented community transmission, to stop another wave happening in case there's a breach somewhere). Every shop here is open and has been for months, under these new conditions. It's still tough for venues who lose out on customers and turnover due to restrictions on the amount of people who can enter, but there's some lateral thinking, like sidewalks being used for outdoors seating rent-free; plus financial support for businesses affected like this, so they can afford to stay open while this is going on.

But in the interim period of lockdown, some big hardware and department stores were allowed to trade while smaller non-grocery shops weren't, and there was a lot of criticism because of that, which eventually got heeded; now all businesses can open, as long as they follow protocol.



> An interesting take on business and government can be found in "The Myth of the Robber Barons: A New Look at the Rise of Big Business in America".


I've just read the summary, very interesting indeed! 😎

Best wishes again with finding both a temporary and permanent residential solution.


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## bsms

Thanks, @SueC . A good friend suggested we put the horses in a local stable for a few months, work on selling the house, and then we'd be cut loose from Tucson/Pima County - and know our house buying budget for certain. Alternatively, we could move back to our house and look again at moving in a few years. We've never boarded the horses before...but where we've lived is growing so fast! The desert solitude is gone for good. It is as though people can't imagine "outdoor recreation" without "outdoor destruction". Runners and horse riders are PART of nature. Mechanize it and everything goes weird. I remember a few months ago watching an ATV zip past, maybe 30 feet from where Bandit and I were waiting - and they had no idea we were there! No horse and very few joggers could pass by a horse & rider in the open and not notice! It is as if the outdoors is like the background of a video game.

And of course, Arizona WANTS more and more people to move here - good for business, you know! I want businesses to survive too, but they were built and grew and survived BEFORE another million or two move here, so why?

Think the wife and I will take a week or two to regroup. Then decide.


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## whisperbaby22

I recall that ivermectin was being talked about last spring, some horse people were worried that we might be running out of it for our horses.


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## SueC

@bsms, there's currently the chance to ask any COVID/vaccine questions of some of our top health communicators who've been regulars on TV updates during the whole pandemic. The questions and answers are archived, and they're not afraid to say, "I don't know!" but that doesn't happen very much!









'Silent spreaders' and vaccine doubters: Your COVID questions answered by our experts


Norman Swan (Coronacast), Sophie Scott (national medical reporter) and Kylie Quinn (vaccine expert) joined our blog to answer your burning questions about the coronavirus vaccines.




www.abc.net.au


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## carshon

I just wanted to pop in and say I am so sorry the house issue has fallen apart.


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## gottatrot

Sorry the house didn't work out. Hopefully you may have been saved from a bad situation just in time. Still very disappointing, I am sure. I'll trust there is something even better coming your way. 
Last year my sister had her heart set on a farm property that fell through, but a couple months later found a much better farm on more level ground with more privacy and a barn already built. Better house too! 
When we moved to our new area, we first wanted to rent a house on a lake, and I was very discouraged when it didn't work out. But our house on the river we are renting now is more modern, much nicer and still has a lovely view. Hoping something like that is in store for you.


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## tinyliny

I haven't been following the house hunting story. I remember you were going to go live in Utah, but this house your almost bought was in AZ, no? slight confusion.

I wanted to comment on two things you expressed that hit home for me: the apparent inability for people to just 'be' in the wild places . . . and . . the burden of excess things.

I see the first thing here, all the time. We have here many wonderful natural places. You go there, and what do you find? campers with radios on, or generators fso they can watch TV or run AC. Trucks pulling trailers with huge ATV's, etc. I have a big distaste for that. BUT . . .those folks buy forest passes , fishing lisences, and pay taxes too, so I have to just find my own quiet spot if I can. I have found them to often be fun to talk to , but I don't get the mindset, at all.

As to stuff . . .I remember when I went to Fiji, back in 1995. We spent some time in a native village and had the chance to see how the folks lived. Their houses, built on poles, were made of local materials. Inside, they had some western style furniture, but not a lot. Everything was immaculately clean and open and spare. all their possessions were in plain sight. I was impressed.

AFter returning home, when we walked inside our little house and saw all the STUFF, I felt the weight of all those things. Every 'thing' that you take into your life brings with it a mental burden; where do I put it? is it the right thing/size/ color/ type, etc. where do I store it until I need it? What do I do with this thing, given to me, when I already have three of them? How can I keep the cat from scratching it? how do I clean and care for it? How to get rid of it?

And, ultimately that becomes the heaviest of mental burdens; How do I get rid of it? Becuase, like your wife, I hate to add things to a landfill. Especially if they are perfectly useful, still. So, I TRY to keep in mind this mantra when I buy something: DO I NEED IT, AND HOW WILL I GET RID OF IT. Additionally, I often think about WHERE DOES IT COME FROM? because if it came from far away, then it cost the environment heavily to get it to me. Useless stuff, sent from China, just fills up our landfills, eventually. Participating in that cycle offends my heart.

Like most of us moving through Middle Age, we really start to see how we really don't need ANYTHING anymore. we either already have it, or never needed it to start with. And, if you can still fit into 12 year old clothing, my hat's off to you!!!


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## bsms

Really, REALLY like your thoughts @tinyliny! *Do we possess possessions, or do they possess us?*

Right now it looks like we might move back into our house and stay there until we either find a place we really like, or until the older horses pass on. The housing market is hot right now, but if I sell in a hot market, it also means I'm buying in a hot market. Kind of a wash. As my brother-in-law put it, "_Do you have a place to move TO? What makes it a step UP instead of a step sideways?_" So if we find a place we really like (and we thought we had!), it makes sense. But in the meantime, I can buy a good horse trailer and a truck to haul them. Instead of riding in the immediate area with all its rocks, the wife & I can look at a weekly outing to the nearby mountains and ride them someplace like this:










I know three horses who would be glad to take a 20 minute ride in a trailer in exchange for a 2-3 hour "All You Can Eat" buffet.....

I also need to do the work to get them used to riding in the local neighborhood. Both things would be helpful even if, 3 months from now, we find a nice place farther away from Tucson's 1,000,000 population.


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## Knave

I am sorry about your house! That makes me sad for you, but I do believe that God has a plan and it’s better than yours or mine.  I sound like Job’s friends. 

I enjoyed catching up on your journal. I have no idea what to think about the Covid issue. I was offered the shot as being a farmer, but I didn’t sign up for it. I don’t have issue with vaccinations, so I’m sure eventually I will get it, but I’d like to wait and see for a couple years. That said, I wonder if it will be a requirement for my kids to go back to public school. In that case it will take more consideration on my part.


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## bsms

"_The Tokyo Metropolitan Government plans to conduct clinical trials of the anti-parasitic drug Ivermectin at metropolitan and public hospitals to assess its effectiveness against COVID-19, Nikkei has learned._"









Tokyo considers trials of parasite drug for COVID-19


Ivermectin tablets to be assessed for possible home use




asia.nikkei.com





It will be months before they have answers, but I'm glad they are asking the question.


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## Knave

I know some people who plan on taking it. A man was just telling me that his brother and his family took it. It would be easy enough to do I guess.


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## bsms

I don't know if I would take it or not. I'd really like to see better data. Survival rates are 99.5% in my age group so you need a large sample size to say X helps with any certainty. I don't think trials like that exist - yet. Maybe Tokyo and Oxford will provide us the data we need.


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## Knave

Husband said he intends to. I probably would; I don’t see the harm in being wormed. Lol. Do you ever think about that? It is the one solid health standard for animals. Everyone agrees and everyone worms their pets and livestock. Yet, for some reason we think that we humans are so particularly clean and perfect that we no longer need wormed. Of course we wouldn’t have worms! Disgusting!

I know a group, who are of a different culture than our own, who do worm all their school kids and their families occasionally when someone is said to have gotten infected. I doubt there is any difference between their children and mine, and I wish I knew when they were doing it because I would join them!


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## egrogan

I guess it bothers me a little if people take that because of some perceived distrust of the actual vaccine, which has gone through rigorous clinical trials. If they don't believe _that _science, but are willing to take something based on even less science, that doesn't make any sense to me.

I do think about things like ingesting wormers and other antibiotics in the context of having backyard chickens. There are so few meds available for poultry because there's no financial incentive to go through the process of testing/FDA approval on meds that are likely helpful and safe, but without testing, not officially allowed. The backyard chicken community seems pretty savvy at using "off label" meds to nurse chickens through infections, wounds, internal problems, etc. I've wormed my hens over the years using horse Safeguard, and made my best guess about egg withdrawal periods (but also figured the minuscule amount of wormer passing through wasn't going to hurt us). My husband thought I was nuts the first time he caught me feeding monistat to an old hen to clear sour crop, but you know what, it worked like a charm 😉 I appreciate why access to animal antibiotics are restricted, and why we regulate medicines fed to the factory level food supply. But I do feel frustrated when I can see one of my chickens clearly has an eye infection, and I know what antibiotic she needs and how to use it, but I can't get it for her unless I can convince a vet to write me a script. Or just buy fish antibiotics, which for some reason are not regulated and the same exact thing?!


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## Knave

@egrogan I know what you are saying! It bothers me, the micromanaging of the medical industry. It’s about money to me. Yes, I completely understand that antibiotic overuse creates germs that are superbugs. I also get that people might take an antibiotic or another drug that might hurt them without proper oversight. Same for treating their animals...

Yet I also see it this way: my girls and I have asthma. This is unchanging. Can I get an inhaler without a prescription? Nope. Can I get a prescription without a doctor visit? Nope. The doctor requires a visit every 6 months. That visit costs a lot of money. $300 after insurance. So, for each of us to get our prescription it would take $1800 a year, besides what it costs for the inhaler.

A bladder infection is easy to know when you have it, and yet getting the smzs to treat it requires a lot of money. Simple things they make very difficult, and in turn, people like me get worse care. Animals too... it is easy enough to know your horse needs antibiotics in certain situations, but not easy to get them.

The medication to sedate animals would be another that would be so beneficial to animals for their owners to have. I have stapled and sewn many dogs back together while someone held them down. It would be kinder to have them sedated, but it is kind also to not allow them to die of their injuries.

I don’t think the people behind the rules truly care if a person is misusing sedatives, because drug users will find drugs in one way or another. Instead, they care about the money spent. People will spend the money for the necessary medicines most of the time. This is especially true if they are frightened to make any of those decisions themselves. So, it doesn’t matter if you chose between groceries and an inhaler to them.


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## egrogan

@Knave, so frustrating about long-term meds for chronic conditions like your asthma; you know you need it, you know how to use it, but you still need so much external "permission" to get it. Or (apologies @bsms), birth control. WHY can I not buy over the counter pills? They don't even cost anything anymore with my insurance, but I still need annual exams and prescriptions from the doctor, and monthly visits to the pharmacy to have them filled. It should be far easier.


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## bsms

FWIW: I get checked for skin cancer every 6 months. They removed several basal cell carcinomas and one filled with cells that would have turned into melanoma cancer. But...every 6 months I have to renew my insurance permission to be seen by the doc. At least with the COVID stuff, they were willing to renew the paperwork over the phone this time instead of requiring me to go see a nurse at the base hospital who would decide if I really need to see the dermatologist again - although he's an MD and has told me I need to be seen twice a year for the rest of my life.

I don't know if ivermectin works. I've read it is very well tolerated by humans. Not sure why they can't at least give doctors permission to TRY it since it is likely to do no harm and MIGHT help. Heck, placebos often help - no one knows why.

Just seems Big Business and Big Government protect each other. Not exactly a political statement since I'm well to the right politically while my well to the left niece agrees whole heartedly. We've gone through similar with the dogs. Want a pain killer for a dog? See a vet and get a prescription! Your dog is suffering and no vet will see him for 3 days? Sucks to be your dog, eh! Or drive to Mexico and buy some over the counter. Just don't get caught bringing it in! What are you trying to do? Ease your dog's suffering without permission?


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## whisperbaby22

I have read that studies confirm that placebos sometimes work even when the patient is told it is a placebo. Power of the mind.


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## bsms

Something horse related, finally: Rode Bandit today for the second time in a month or so. He was...bouncy? Energetic? Started in an older snaffle, one with a roller & double-joints. He was heavy on the front. Seemed pre-occupied. The roller? Not used to being ridden? I don't know. Switched to his normal snaffle, a single joint O-ring. He was better in it, but maybe because we'd spent 15 minutes fussing already?

Lots of fast trots. Quite a few canters. Fast canters given the small size of my arena (70x120 max, about 60x100 max used). I was riding with two hands (rare) and posting much of the trotting (rare). At one point, he was falling into the turn at a canter. It is OK to LEAN into a turn, but not FALLING, which has a very different feel. So I kept tightening the turn until we were doing what was, _for a 30 foot diameter circle_, a fast canter. He usually relaxes into rolling canter but he was doing a good clip. I was worried, given his attitude, that he'd buck when we exited the canter so I switched to one hand, put my palm against the rear of the horn, we straightened out - and he did nothing. Just slowed. Then stopped. Went to two hands again and he switched to a fast trot.

Well, I needed the workout. So did he, I expect. I had my longest stirrup setting at the start and switched after 5 minutes to the next hole higher (1.75" gap IIRC). After 30 minutes, he was settling and I was pooped, so I called it quits. *I'm* out of riding shape. More than he is, I guess.

I wrote on another thread that I think giving a horse some independence in gaits, transitions, etc part of the time is good for a rider. If you do a stand to canter transition without asking for it, exactly, other than leaning a bit forward, well, that isn't bad practice for a spook into a canter. So I was directive at times but didn't put up a fuss if he gave me something I hadn't asked for. My back isn't sore but my legs are so I guess I ride mostly in my legs. Not my butt. And I think that is good on a squirrelly horse.

We're going to go look at a number of homes in the Hereford area tomorrow, south of Sierra Vista. All are on 4-5 acres. We actually hit a gallop briefly a few times today in our 60x100' circles. I think of myself as a trail rider, not an arena one. But if I had room for a 300 x 125 foot arena, I might switch. We could gallop in that distance and I enjoyed working harder at my riding than I do most of the time on the trail. Plenty of dirt roads going between the 4-5 acre properties but not much by way of trails there. Unless you trailer. But with enough room, I could have fun riding in an arena. And if I broke up a flake of hay into 4 parts and let Bandit stop and eat a few bites at times, Bandit would be fine with it. He understands working for food.








Hereford is close to the border - that is Mexico in the bottom of the picture. Sierra Vista is 50,000 people about 10 miles away, and Ft Huachuca is about 15 miles. Very civilized compared to the areas we've been looking at. But Sierra Vista has a 100 bed hospital and we're at an age that we need to think about things like that. And there are no interstate gas pipelines running through any of the properties we'll look at tomorrow. I now know to look for that potential issue!


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## gottatrot

Sounds like a very energetic ride!

Interesting to hear about the Ivermectin and such. Most of my coworkers have had their second Covid vaccine. Although I've heard a blanket statement that the benefits outweigh the side effects, for me personally that is not true. For my age bracket and gender, there is a .04% risk of dying from Covid. That means if all the women my age in OR got Covid, about 24 would die, and most of those would be those with obesity, diabetes, drug users, etc. My personal risk from Covid is almost nil. 

Meanwhile, if I get the vaccine, most likely I would have to lose work for a couple of days and use my hard-earned vacation money to cover the hours. That is judging by the fact that 7 out of 10 people who had the second vaccine called in sick for a couple of days. Most had a fever, chills and/or sweats, and other symptoms that kept them from being able to work. One nurse has been out for a week. 

For many people, the risk from Covid far outweighs the negatives of the vaccine, I just don't fit under that blanket. Some might consider it a duty to others to go through that, but I'll ask if it came at the price of hundreds of dollars (my vacation hours that will otherwise be spent getting paid to be traveling somewhere), how far your duty would go. If you saw a stranger on the corner and they said hey, if you give him $500 right now you'll lower his chance of Covid, would you do it? I feel like that's what they're asking me to do. Use my own money to potentially protect a stranger. Rather than give money, I think I'll continue to wash my hands, not cough or sneeze around anyone and maintain distance. It's just cheaper for me.


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## carshon

I find the thoughts on taking the vaccine very interesting. I live in small rural village of 150 people. And that village is in a rural county in NW IL. COVID hoax and anti vaccine are very common place here. Unfortunately in my very small village we have had 3 people get COVID - 1 died and the other is on oxygen and in a wheelchair and the third (wife of the second person is fine after flu like symptoms) The person that passed was an older gentleman (77) with no underlying health conditions. What makes his death more of a tragedy is that his son-in-lay passed from H1N1 when that ran rampant. So that family has suffered immensely from foreign virus'. The other gentleman was 66 with no underlying health conditions and strongly anti vaccine. He and his wife both contracted the virus - they believe from church gatherings, and he became very ill with pneumonia and is now out of the hospital after 2 weeks and in a wheel chair until he gains his strength back but may be on oxygen for the rest of his life. I know a handful of people who have gotten 2 doses of the vaccine and the side effects were zero to fever and chills. I am on the fence about taking the vaccine - but I have had 20 hip replacements in 10 months so that puts me in the high risk category (I am 50 yrs old) I think @bsms has stated it very well though that our country looks at health care as a cash cow industry. Dr visits are required for so many non essential visits and they charge your insurance 100's of dollars for a 15 minute visit. Before we blame the Dr's look at what their employers take off the top. I am afraid of when that bubble pops as the fall out will be ugly.


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## bsms

My youngest daughter has had both shots now. Said the second shot left her quite sick for 30 hours and sore for a few more days.

I know three retired nurses, none of whom plan to take the vaccine. Then there is the lady whose visitors tested positive and needed outpatient treatment. Since they couldn't travel, they stayed with her until well, quarantining in her house - and she didn't catch it. She sold pharmaceuticals before retiring and had to be very familiar with test results, safety standards, etc - and she is refusing to take the vaccine. I'm planning on taking it. But when people tell me I'll still need to avoid travel, wear masks (or double masks!) and have as little to do with other humans as possible even after being vaccinated....what IS the point?

While looking for places to live, we've visited 6 churches in Cochise County. All meeting live. No mask requirement, although folks are welcome to wear one if they wish. Singing allowed. Some space out the seating. Some don't. Like many churches, their "population" tends to be older. None have had outbreaks of COVID. The county itself has one of the lowest rates of infection in Arizona - and most of the cases have been in the border town of Douglas as folks flow from Mexico north to get better health care. (Nogales and Yuma are also the highest rates of infection in the state for the same reason). It is also a county where lots of folks spend a lot of time outdoors. I think that helps.

COVID is funny, in a very unfunny way. It doesn't respond the way many viruses do. It is a very uneven killer. I think many people are genetically resistant already. They either won't catch it, or their body will toss it off as easily as we do the common cold. But no one KNOWS if they are genetically resistant. And for those who are not, you can go from mild or no symptoms to dead in days. Which one am I? Don't know. Can't know, until I catch it. I'm inclined to get the vaccine if I'm ever offered it. But the fact that 100% of the retired nurses I know are refusing gives me pause. As does the fact that I've been living my life as normal as possible for the last year, have two kids in school daily and had no issues. I'm tempted at least to take some ivermectin and skip the vaccine.


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## bsms

The Department of Defense has 4 phases to rolling out the vaccine. I rank in....Number 4! Maybe I'll keep a spare tube of horse wormer around....until I become eligible for the vaccine in....2022? 2023?


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## whisperbaby22

Ha! I'm eligible, but in California. I have no idea when I would be able to get it. I'm thinking of waiting to see if the one dose becomes approved, getting both doses here is not going well.


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## knightrider

I got my second shot on Friday with no ill effects at all. My arm hardly ached. According to the CDC, I can start back going to church in 2 weeks! I've already started back teaching Sunday school, but I stopped going to church because almost nobody wears masks and they don't social distance. Lots of folks from church have had covid and spread it.


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## Knave

I’m so glad you didn’t get sick @knightrider! My aunt (close to my own age however) and several of the teachers got the vaccines. The first one was fine, but the second made them all very sick. Two were only sick for a day, but the rest were two or three days. She said she was bedridden and miserable.


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## weeedlady

I also got my second shot on Friday! I had no reaction at all. Most people I know who have gotten the second dose have been ill for a day or even 3. I'm glad I took it.


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## SueC

Hiya @bsms and everyone here - that's such an interesting discussion on worming etc you had there, and sadly I was away, so excuse me for chiming in now.

Re ivermectin vs vaccine, I'll say that I agree with @egrogan's argument. Ivermectin isn't side-effect free either (especially for some dogs with Border Collie genes) plus it's not going to be anywhere near as effective as vaccination against SARS-CoV-2 if at all - I think in people there's a bit of a tendency to prefer the devil you know to the devil you don't, even in instances where they are equally risky, or the "old devil" is actually riskier. With the vaccine we don't know the long-term side-effects, but I do think that the potential long-term side-effects of actually getting infected with SARS-CoV-2 are likely to be worse than the potential long-term side-effects from vaccination. We already know about "long COVID" and some people getting organ damage from viral infection - and I doubt that we'll see that from a vaccine (which doesn't cause a viral infection, just creates antibodies).

I personally was worried about shorter-term side effects, like cytokine storms if exposed to virus after immunisation, and that's already been vetted in the drug trials. Coronavirus vaccines always were tricky for that reason and I'm glad they appear to have found ways past this problem. Of course, for long-term and unusual side-effects only the long term will tell us, as with anything (DDT, thalidomide etc), but personally I'll be lining up for the vaccination when it becomes available to me (I'm not in a priority group and we still don't have community transmission in WA) - just like I do flu shots. By the way, I didn't do flu shots for ten years at one point after two years in a row being stabbed into a nerve in the arm and then having weeks where I couldn't lift it without pain. But then Brett started working at a medical practice and raving about how good the nurse there was at doing shots and I've been getting annual flu shots again since then too, without having arm problems afterwards! 

Now as worming goes, I've actually taken ivermectin because none of the human over-the-counter wormers treat tapeworm, and the stuff you get on prescription has more listed side-effects than ivermectin (which is in human use in Africa etc). It's not that I had evidence of having tapeworm, but that one day I asked myself what the chances were of having escaped tapeworm infection given that I've had lifelong associations with dogs, not all of whom were necessarily wormed (neighbour's dogs, dogs in the street etc - I love dogs) - and that my dog potentially carries the really problematic hydatid tapeworm eggs on her coat because she rolls in fox scats, and foxes can carry hydatids, and hydatid disease is seriously nasty and very hard to treat - not like just having normal intestinal tapeworms.

By the way, I did not find any evidence of intestinal tapeworm after taking ivermectin - but I didn't look that closely, so it wasn't impossible - just I didn't have spools and spools of dying tapeworm coming out of me like you hear about in some of the tales that do the rounds, and like you can sometimes see when neglected dogs are wormed etc. That'd be freaky... and now I'm going to stop in case some of you are having dinner.

Oh and I don't dare give ivermectin to my dog, she has BC genes.

And something that shocked me:



Knave said:


> Yet I also see it this way: my girls and I have asthma. This is unchanging. Can I get an inhaler without a prescription? Nope. Can I get a prescription without a doctor visit? Nope. The doctor requires a visit every 6 months. That visit costs a lot of money. $300 after insurance. So, for each of us to get our prescription it would take $1800 a year, besides what it costs for the inhaler.


OMG @Knave, that's so terrible! 😱 I get the odd asthma attack when I have really bad hayfever, so I always have Ventolin (the bronchiodilating reliever puffer, not the "preventer" which is corticosteroids which I really don't want to inhale no matter that it's "recommended" to do it - Ventolin is fine for me for treating the odd attack). Ventolin is over-the-counter and costs me $20 and the puffer usually lasts me 1-2 years. If I wanted a prescription puffer, the gap fee for a GP visit here is currently $48 and the rest ($38) is covered by Medicare - and there's many GPs who don't charge gap fees to patients who aren't well-off, like pensioners or people on social security or just on discretion, because they don't have much spare cash and request a "bulk bill" consultation.

I love our universal Medicare system in Australia and think it's wonderful value for money (2% of taxable income for average income earners, less for the less well-off, more for higher-income earners) and great peace of mind. Also I love that in our society, average people don't have these huge financial issues around going to see doctors or having to go to hospital or getting expensive drug treatment, because many drugs are subsidised by the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme so that we pay around $20 per standard prescription (some things much less, like the contraceptive pill is $5 for three months' worth).

When I broke my foot two and a half years ago the total cost to me for the hospital visit and follow-up with the specialist orthopaedist at fortnightly intervals was zero. I chose to buy an i-Walk support crutch, but got ordinary crutches on an as-needed free loan from the local hospital for as long as they were useful to me - I returned them after six weeks. The moon boot was complimentary, they fitted it at the hospital.




> A bladder infection is easy to know when you have it, and yet getting the smzs to treat it requires a lot of money. Simple things they make very difficult, and in turn, people like me get worse care.


And that's precisely what doesn't happen when everyone is automatically insured with a not-for-profit scheme through the tax system. No shareholders to skim money off the operation, no private-company executives with their salaries and bonuses, no average people stressing about medical treatment when they need it or getting lesser care, no pensioners limping around because they can't afford joint replacements, noone robbing the bank because their relative has a rare disease that's expensive to treat. The stress of illness and needing surgery etc is already enough without financial stress compounded on top of it. Also, our society saves money because people's problems are seen promptly, and lifestyle conditions get medical management early. So, less medical complications and less time off work than when you have to really consider money as well when seeing a doctor. I've got animals and I know what would come first if it was a choice of my seeing a doctor or my horse not getting his Cushings treatment. Thank goodness I never have to make that choice.

If you guys ever get a chance to get a Medicare system like Australia's I would highly recommend you go for it - it was brought in here in the 1980s and it's an almost universally beloved scheme that's working very well. The only people that don't love it are the right-wingers and the private insurance companies. 😛


----------



## bsms

I've experienced government health care via the military. Still have a variation of it. If we needed anything other than basic care or a 25 year old treatment, they sent us off-base. An anesthesiologist friend of mine left the military because he felt he was falling too far behind modern medicine. He said the equipment he had to use was like driving a 50 year old car.

Now....the military does have a FEW very good hospitals. Some of the best there are. But day-to-day, we got a lot of "Take some aspirin and tough it out". And I still have to be seen by a nurse (until COVID) every 6 months to get authorization to be seen by the same Doctor who has been treating me every 6 months for the last 10 years...

Don't know the answer though.


----------



## Knave

I don’t know the answer either. Although I am against an overall socialist society, I personally believe I would appreciate socialized medicine like Australia and Canada @SueC. I see what bsms is saying too though.

It seems we can’t figure it out here just yet. Obamacare didn’t solve the problem. I pay for it, which isn’t bad. I’ve not been unhappy with it, although it does require we stay in state. That is fine and dandy, but my state is excessively expensive on the medical and dental side. I sent husband and little girl to the dentist. He had a toothache. The visit to see what was the matter was $500. He is requiring an individual visit per tooth, which irritates me, and the visit on Thursday, the first of 4, was $1,700 for just regular cavity filling. There went half of the money I have saved. I don’t have dental insurance, and this is actually the cheapest of the dentists in our area.

I was reading my insurance paperwork since big girl got her concussion. They won’t pay anything for emergency care until we meet a bit over $13,000. I imagine the bill will be hard to take.


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## whisperbaby22

I would be interested in R&D investment in countries that have one payer systems.


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## egrogan

whisperbaby22 said:


> I would be interested in R&D investment in countries that have one payer systems.


Well that's pretty easy to find:








_Source: ONS (2019) gross domestic expenditure on research and development, 2017. OECD Main Science and Technology Indicators 2017. Data for comparator countries shown. Note - figures are rounded. Please note, ONS data has been used for the UK for greater accuracy. The latest available data has been used for each country. Some countries have not published data for more recent years, in which case the latest available data has been used. _ 

Depending on what you mean by "one payer systems," you could categorize the nations above into single-payer, national health service, universal multi-payer, etc. and see that the US is about average but trails many systems that provide universal coverage to all.

What's pretty clear is that the US is the only industrialized nation in the world that tolerates people going without healthcare, draining their savings to pay, or going bankrupt to access life saving care. I grew up in a military family and never wanted for anything when it came to my "government provided health care"- whether it was preventative medicine, acute incidents (oops, ER visit after busting a knee as a teenager playing soccer), dental, vision, the whole nine yards was accessible and affordable. I don't recall it really taking an exceptionally long time to access services or have things approved, but I was lucky to always be healthy and not need much; same with the rest of my family. 

Now, even with my "cadillac" private insurance, I wait for months to get an appointment and fight tooth and nail with this company when they consistently attempt to tell my doctor what is or is not allowed, or require multiple appeals before paying for things like telemedicine appointments. I really have never understood the argument that going to a public, universal coverage system is going to lead to unacceptable wait times or cause a bureaucrat to interfere with my doctor's preferred treatments. That's here *now. *Just in the form of private (or nominally "nonprofit") companies paying CEOs and their boards massive salaries, while for-profit hospitals nickle and diming nurses and other techs a salary well below what they're worth while engaging in constant one-upsmanship with the insurers. And I'm one of the lucky ones to actually have low-deductible, comprehensive employer coverage. I don't understand why the collective we tolerate this situation.


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## whisperbaby22

Interesting graph, although I don't see the part that said this was R&D in medical advances.


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## bsms

I trust free enterprise to be more innovative and to find new solutions due to the profit motive. OTOH, it is outrageously expensive. As I said, I don't know the answer. There is a reason I'll never run for office, and it ain't just because I'm not telegenic!


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## tinyliny

Knave said:


> I don’t know the answer either. Although I am against an overall socialist society, I personally believe I would appreciate socialized medicine like Australia and Canada @SueC. I see what bsms is saying too though.
> 
> It seems we can’t figure it out here just yet. Obamacare didn’t solve the problem. I pay for it, which isn’t bad. I’ve not been unhappy with it, although it does require we stay in state. That is fine and dandy, but my state is excessively expensive on the medical and dental side. I sent husband and little girl to the dentist. He had a toothache. The visit to see what was the matter was $500. He is requiring an individual visit per tooth, which irritates me, and the visit on Thursday, the first of 4, was $1,700 for just regular cavity filling. There went half of the money I have saved. I don’t have dental insurance, and this is actually the cheapest of the dentists in our area.
> 
> I was reading my insurance paperwork since big girl got her concussion. They won’t pay anything for emergency care until we meet a bit over $13,000. I imagine the bill will be hard to take.



I am on Obama care, too. I mean,, I get my insurance through that market place. Obamacare is only a market place for private carriers. But, anyway those costs are outrageously high. I live near Seattle, and I thought OUR costs were high!


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## egrogan

whisperbaby22 said:


> Interesting graph, although I don't see the part that said this was R&D in medical advances.


Well, you didn't ask me for _that_ 

Here's one summary, though admittedly quite dated at this point (1998), of the percent of GDP invested in health related R&D.








_Source_. Young, A. (2001). Compiling performer-reported health GERD. Chapter 2 in _Measuring Health-Related R&D. _Paris: OECD Publications Service.

In this more contemporary _New England Journal of Medicine_ article (Chakma et al., 2014), it seems that while the US health-related R&D investment is still leading in terms of actual dollars and by %GDP invested, that is declining comparatively over time. (You can create a NEJM account to access two free articles/month.)
_Table S2: Change in biomedical research and development expenditure as a percentage of nominal gross domestic product (GDP) of regions, in current US dollars (USD) as of 6/25/2013_











bsms said:


> I trust free enterprise to be more innovative and to find new solutions due to the profit motive. OTOH, it is outrageously expensive.


But that's the very definition of a public good- the thing that there _is _no profit motive for free enterprise to address. For whatever reason, private companies have decided in the US that it is not enough of a problem that millions of our friends and neighbors go without health care. "We" (the global we) have decided that it's ok for @Knave to have to pay $13K- literally half of what I made as my annual salary my first year as a teacher- out of pocket before her insurance kicks in, or go without. When the market offers so little that is affordable to the average person, that's when public goods become relevant. Right now around 10-11% of Americans have no health care at all, and I don't have time to look up the statistics about the % on top of that who have functionally no health care (meaning, outrageous deductibles or bare minimum coverage that really does nothing if you are seriously ill or injured). How is this a market figuring out an innovative solution to figuring out how to ensure Americans aren't bankrupted or outright killed by lack of access to sustained, preventative medical care?

Here's another less consequential example that is playing out in an ugly way in my tiny town right now: We have no access to cable or fiber broadband interet in my part of town (the very rural, southern part outside of the village, which has cable AND access to fiber). There is NO for-profit company coming out here with wired connection, ever. There is a local community broadband district (public nonprofit) that has wired most of our surrounding towns, and part of our own town, with access to fiber which is supposed to be really good. We signed up when we moved in 3 years ago and are STILL waiting. The older residents in town keep telling those of us who are still working and schooling virtually to shut up already about the broadband. But it's pretty hard to understand how we are supposed to work in a fully virtual world when there is no market solution. There is literally no amount of money I could pay Comcast to come here (other streets were quoted $30K to bring cable down the road to 4 houses, and they paid. Comcast won't even take $30K to come down our street). There is no amount of money I could pay Verizon to give me a bigger data plan, since I run internet off my phone as a hotspot. It just doesn't exist. I don't understand how we can get away with saying that internet connection is not a public utility, but I guess we have deregulation of the 1990s to thank for that. We _may _end up with access to Elon Musk's Starlink, finally. We have paid our deposit and are hoping. So maybe a market solution will save us after all 



> There is a reason I'll never run for office, and it ain't just because I'm not telegenic!


Haha, you and me both!!


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## Knave

Lol bsms and @egrogan. I was on the school board. I didn’t like it. It was harder than you would think, and doing things the honest way led me to zero results and a lot of negativity and stress.

A part of our county, a small town a ways out, has what we call a “box.” Inside the box, which is 1 square mile, has power and water. Outside of that box has none. Lots of people live outside the box in these odd made houses, some nice with solar power, and some rather ‘off the grid’ in a bad way, are s.o.l.. It would cost $65K to take the power out of the box, and the county refuses to because they look negatively at the town.

It’s a struggle.

@tinyliny I think Obamacare is much better in Seattle. Our county only is covered by one insurance. It’s take it or leave it, and it has to be purchased through Obamacare or a job site. I think certain jobs have been grandfathered in to other insurances, but any self insured or smaller business was dropped.


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## bsms

My sister is on Obamacare. She's trying to get switched to Medicare but the Social Security people have been dragging their feet. She also gets a good discount on a new medicine for migraines which cut her from 12-15/month down to around 3/month. It is expensive but the private company has a program to provide it at a discount for folks below a certain income level. I had 13 potential cancer spots frozen off my face today. The retired military insurance (Tricare) is a pain to deal with but CHEAP compared to most private insurance. I was staggered when I started doing taxes and seeing how much some folks paid for health insurance and child care.

Really wish I knew the answers and was telegenic.... ;>)


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## Knave

I’m sure you’re telegenic enough for politics bsms! I think you would put a lot of thought and care into it too. You would be the perfect kind of politician!


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## bsms

Thanks. I'm impressed you've been in politics @Knave . I spent some time just on the Board of Directors for a small HOA. HATED it! But someone who has served on a school board has my admiration. THAT is tough AND important!

Talking about training holes on @gottatrot 's journal...started this but it belongs on this thread instead of cluttering up hers.

We've made an offer on a house and it has been accepted. We're now working once again on the inspections prior to purchase. COE is planned for mid-April. It is undoubtedly horse property. The current owner has raised Arabians there for the last 15 years. It includes this:








None of my horses have ever SEEN a 6-stall horse barn. I'm pretty sure none has even been in an enclosed stall. Nor do I plan to keep them in individual, enclosed stalls there. I'll probably build a 12x24 flat roof shelter for them to use most of the time and try to teach them to accept being in a stall in inclement weather. I don't think it will take a long time to teach them. But I doubt they'll rush in the first day. Is that a training hole? Most horses in Arizona will go their entire life without finding out.

The rodeo fairgrounds are about a mile from the house. I won't be able to ride Bandit there during a rodeo. Certainly not at first and I may not ever get him ready. It would involve work and I don't see much reason to do that work. It might turn into this and I don't bounce so good:








PS: The house is small and has an awkward floor plan. But The Wife and I are looking forward to it. Nice Living Room, Dining Room and Kitchen. The rest is....well, I think over time we can move some walls and make it more bearable. We made the offer mostly because of the location. Not much good, nearby riding off property - all paved roads with so-so shoulders that I can see. But there is a lot of great riding within 15 miles. So they need to learn to load and unload in a trailer. That hasn't been a "hole" for them for 10 years (and all have done it before). But I now need to get a truck that can haul more than 3500 lbs and a trailer and get them good at it.

Lots of holes are just things one hasn't had a need to do before. Or the opportunity to do, perhaps. I have plenty of holes as a rider. I couldn't imagine being able to do what a lot of you do daily. Without even thinking about it. Maybe the change in scenery and land and roads and other stuff will create "opportunities to learn" - which is another name for "training hole".

The view to the west. 9,456' MSL, nicknamed "Old Baldy". This is a big part of why we're willing to put up with very awkward bedrooms and the smallness (about 1450 sq ft plus a bonus room):








Of course, we were really excited about moving last month until we hit a show stopper. If anyone wants to offer prayers or good wishes, I'll accept both gladly. I have a good feeling about this. At this point, I can't imagine something popping up that would halt things....but there are still things like appraisals and home inspections ahead. Like the previous house, if it falls through, it won't be because we didn't sincerely want things to work. This one, though, I know has no interstate gas lines (or several of them) crossing the property. I will never again look for a house without checking for that before my first visit!

BTW - it is only 25 miles from our current house. But 5,000 MSL makes for a huge change in environment. This link has more on the local area, emphasizing the wineries....









Sonoita, Arizona - The Ultimate Visitors Guide


All about Sonoita, Arizona weather, wineries, restaurants, hotels and fun things to do. Click to learn more about the Original Wine Country of Arizona!




blossomingwidow.com


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## Knave

Oh yay!! I’m super excited for you and will say a prayer that direction.

I am fully with you and @gottatrot on the “holes” concept. I think that people who miss seeing that are people who are educated, sometimes highly and sometimes barely, but in a very specific setting. They lack the outside viewpoints and begin to think they know more than they do.

Even some of the “great” trainers get so caught up in a specific plan that they lose the general knowledge of a youngster making things work. Suddenly they forget that there are other ways.

I worked for a cutting horse trainer once. I don’t respect him much as a human, but as a trainer I saw a lot of good in him. He was kinder than most, and he let horses think things through themselves. He was very successful at the time too.

Anyways, he told me once that if a kid wanted to make a cutting horse, and knew what he wanted the end result to be, if he could be consistent, he would be successful. He thought, even if the kid did everything “wrong,” he would end up getting to the correct result. Sometimes I have to remind myself of that. I know that it is a generalization and not specifically always a rule which will be true, but the idea is right in my opinion.

I hate the pressure that these holes and rules put on people. It annoys me that as a culture in America, and probably many other countries, we spend our time proving we are better than others and tearing them down.


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## whisperbaby22

My house has a really weird floorplan, we use the "living room" as a bedroom, and the kitchen floor is at a slant. And that's only part of it. But I'm so used to it now a flowing floor plan would seem weird! 

Hopefully this one will work out for you.


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## gottatrot

Looks like great scenery and the weather seems pretty nice too. I was looking at the fairgrounds website...I wonder if they would let you use the track when the facility is not in use. To me that would be fun, to have nice footing where you could let a horse run sometimes. Or at least do some good cantering for fitness. Or if there is a big arena to ride in for something different. Of course the fairgrounds themselves might be scary and need some getting used to, even when nothing is going on.


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## egrogan

Sending you all the good thoughts that this house will be the one!

Our house also has a very odd floor plan. It’s hard to explain, but there are a lot of ways you could walk in circles between rooms and halls. There’s a secret passage. A lot of it is from adding on over the years in ways that didn’t make sense. But as we make changes, including taking out some walls and repurposing rooms, it’s starting to be more comfortable.


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## lb27312

Looks like an awesome horse place!! I agree with @gottatrot in seeing if you could use the fairgrounds for playing. Maybe they have fun days too! Sending prayers your way on the success of getting what you want!! 

I agree on the holes thing... but I have more holes than my horses do so I accept theirs.


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## egrogan

lb27312 said:


> I agree on the holes thing... but I have more holes than my horses do so I accept theirs.


Yes, this!


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## Knave

My house is small, so I can never relate when people talk about odd floor plans or anything like that. My yard is beautiful and big at least. Lol

I don’t mind having a small house. I don’t think I’ll ever change it, excepting to maybe add a mud room at some point. We need something like that. I want to find ways to improve what’s already here, and when my girls graduate there will be no reason for it to be any bigger.

Maybe you will find ways to improve on your odd built house in that same feeling.


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## knightrider

You have lots of good thoughts, wishes, and prayers from me too. Our house has a crazy terrible floor plan also, but I don't worry about it too much. Our master bedroom is ridiculously huge and ends up storing everybody's junk because they say, "You have room in here." I hope everything goes smoothly for you!!!


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## bsms

I posted this on another thread but afterward I liked what I wrote. So, being egotistical, I'll repeat it here:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​Here is a concept of general horse training that works well with mustangs - at least the two I own:

When the front door is locked, look around for the back door. George Morris, who I gather could be a jerk himself, put it this way:

"_With most Thoroughbreds [_*Note: Arabians, Mustangs, good horses*_], force simply doesn't work; equestrian tact does. The English call such sensitive horses "high couraged", a characteristic that can be a double-edged sword. No horse will give you more if you can channel his energy in the right direction, but no horse can fight you harder if you abuse him. Pushing and pulling will backfire and is akin to stepping on the gas and the brakes at the same time in an automobile. Finesse, compromise, and an indirect approach to the problem - "going in through the back door" - will usually get the job done much better than confrontations, force and fights._"

It goes back to what James Fillis wrote in a book that has remained in print for 130 years: Tact. When meeting resistance, don't try to break down the front door. Take a step back. Move around. Look for the unlocked back door. Back down - but don't give up. Speak softer, not louder. Look for a way to get some of what you want. Or maybe even reassess if you really want it at all. Many horses are know fighting. Let's face it: They fight and punish each other all the time!

So...don't fight. Learn "Quiet Persistence", not direct opposition. Be nimble, not strong and certainly not proud. Give options, not ultimatums. Don't insist on the whole loaf. Take a slice today if that is all, and then a slice tomorrow. And another slice next week. Time can be your enemy or your friend. You choose.

Of course, I only have two mustangs. Not 600. And I've worked with about a half dozen horses total, not thousands. But a lot of extremely experienced people have come to the same conclusion. 12 years with horses hasn't cured me of my temper, but it has certainly taught me a little about compromise. "Mutually Acceptable Compromise". Because when you find yourself on top of 900 lbs of uncompromising muscle, life sucks!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------​Perhaps the biggest gift horses - Mia in particular - have given me is teaching me to look for an alternative to direct confrontation. I'll admit I often fail. 60 years of bad habits cannot be re-written in a decade around good horses. But I'm learning FROM horses, and what I'm learning FROM horses often has application throughout my life. We parted in May of 2015, but here's a thank you to Mia (and Bandit too):







Now if you'll pardon me, I've got a bit of dirt in my eyes.....must be the wind today!


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## gottatrot

That was a really good post.


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## Knave

It was a really good post. I liked it very much.

My horses change me too. They teach me how I should be, and how to deal with and even just to see my own weaknesses clearer.


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## bsms

Things are going along smoothly *so far* on what will hopefully be our next home (mid-late April). Looking northeast from the front yard:







Looking west from the backyard:







Vastly different from this:






25 miles and about 1500 feet in elevation. Was told today here is a way to ride on paved roads to get to Forest Service land. Would be great if true.


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## carshon

The views are exceptional. I truly hope you find access to trails from your new home. Those mountains look great for exploring


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## bsms

I soooo do not need another horse, but I like to look on Craigslist at times. Just saw a 15 year old, 3/4 Arabian mare who needs an experienced rider "_because she likes to go places!_" Sounds like a training hole...< / sarcasm >!


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## carshon

I look at CL all of the time - and I have 4 horses!!! 1 is retired and will be here unridden for many more years. But I do like to look. Some I have the same reaction too. Yep - read between the lines


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## bsms

COVID in Arizona. After watching the numbers regularly for months, I found the inpatient bed use the most reliable statistic for COVID. Cases are reported irregularly, as are deaths. Both of those numbers take up to 3 weeks to stabilize. Inpatient numbers are reported daily and accurately. The numbers for last week never change because they were reported accurately last week!

And inpatient beds also self-filters out those with very mild symptoms. I'm not too concerned if someone has COVID and needs a test to know it. I want to know how many are suffering serious impact. Hospital beds means the count involves serious cases.









Most of Arizona's population had mask mandates imposed on 19-22 June. There have been no significant policy changes since then. Our numbers are also affected by folks crossing the border to get medical care - all the border towns are hot spots. And while native Americans don't CATCH the virus disproportionately, they are more likely to die from it. Both obesity and poor health care options on the reservations (and poverty, I'm sure) impact the death rates. We also, like Florida, have a larger percentage of very elderly.

It would be nice if the second spike was also our last spike, but I doubt it. I tried to find vaccination rates by race but the statistics I found were all over the place. The two largest races in AZ are white and Hispanic (roughly 54:32), but many Hispanics report as white, and many of the vaccinations have not included racial data at all. But it seems safe to say those with money are more likely to be vaccinated.

When it comes to health care in general, I've concluded I don't know the right answer. I don't really know enough to have an informed opinion - in spite of trying to read up on the subject far more than most in Arizona. I hope vaccination helps, and I hope it will prevent any more large spikes. But I don't know and I don't feel I have any good grasp on the risks of vaccination. I'll be vaccinated when I'm allowed to get it. But I'm past worrying about having future kids, and I know several nurses who are refusing to be vaccinated. My DIL works in a COVID ward and she refuses to take the vaccine. I find the entire issue puzzling. Maybe that is why it fascinates me.


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## whisperbaby22

Vaccine inequity here in CA is a scandal. I've been eligible for a shot for a while now and unable to get an appointment. I figure at this point to just wait for the J&J.


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## QHriderKE

Up here in Alberta, the numbers of deaths and even ICU patients for the year aren't different than years we didn't have this virus. 
We've been under a mask mandate since August in most places, and everything was shut down. Just in February things like restaurants started opening up. 

As far as the vaccine goes, from what I understand we are being told that if we get vaccinated, we still have to social distance and mask (or double mask???) etc. Not that I'm likely to even be eligible for the vaccine given my age, health and the fact that my government has absolutely botched the rolling out of vaccines.


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## bsms

We sometimes discuss the miscommunication between man & horse. It happens with cats too:















Hilarious snaps show cats' reactions to their owners hugging them


Hilarious snaps from around the world collated by Bored Panda, proved cats do not give their love easily, putting up a variety of protests at shows of affection from their doting owners.




www.dailymail.co.uk





I'm a dog guy myself, but I'm standoff-ish enough to appreciate cats and their issues with humans!


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## gottatrot

Hilarious! That is what is great about cats. They are brutally honest. Plus timing is everything with them. When they want you to hold them, they can be very demanding. One of ours grabs your face and pulls it down and then pets your face with her paws. If you try to pull away or do something else, the claws come out. But if you try to pet her when she's not in the mood, she gets very offended like she's going to report you to the "me too" movement.


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## bsms

We had a cat & dog growing up. My sister became a cat fan. I went with dogs. But I enjoy cats, on an "_I can take you or leave you_" basis. Which my sister's cats, at least, relate to well. We'll ignore each other, then one will jump into my lap for a few minutes of back scratches, then will leave knowing I won't impose any weird ideas of eternal friendship upon him (or her since the old girl is more sociable). I respect cats without having a desire to have one, and cats seem to return the feeling. I'll grant that, in their own way and with respect, cats can be extremely affectionate. But the ones I meet are quite happy to know me briefly and without any attachment. That works for me too.


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## QHriderKE

I am a cat person at heart but a dog person by choice 🤣

I much prefer the fact that most cats aren't all that needy but still enjoy having your company versus needy dogs that need my attention all the time!

Aaaand I'm living with 4 intense herding dogs.


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## weeedlady

I am a cat lover. We have 6 of them. Each one is an individual!
We also have a German Shepherd who tries to help keep the cats in line.


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## bsms

About 50 miles from the Mexico border...and it is SNOWING. The snow isn't sticking, but it is definitely snowing!


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## whisperbaby22

In my corner of the world I had a nice thunderstorm go through last evening. For about half an hour I was getting lightning every 10 seconds. Then it went to about 30 seconds, with tremendous window shaking thunder for about another hour. I went out to direct runoff and was pelted with hail. I will need a few days to dig out.


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## bsms

It has been so dry here for so long that I'd welcome a thunderboomer. We didn't get any last summer. I enjoy watching the snowflakes falling and I wouldn't mind having a few days of it sticking - but I'm glad I don't live in 3+ feet of it! I actually love a big thunderstorm or even a big snowstorm - provided it doesn't do too much damage and is quickly followed by nice weather. I grew up in Tucson. Military brat and we moved every year, but we were in Tucson when my Dad was killed in Vietnam and we stayed there for my high school years. We used to go out on the back porch and watch the thunderstorms - until they got too close. When lightning hit within a mile, we'd go inside. But I love when the monsoons come in the summer and it starts to get hot and then the clouds build up and then "Boom!" - the rain comes down with thunder and lightning and temperatures drop all in a spectacular display.

But for this morning, I'm content to watch some brief snow flurries here.


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## weeedlady

Sunny and pushing 50F in the UP. Our snow is melting fast, only maybe 6 inches left on the ground. Spring is on the way! I also love a good storm!


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## Knave

I love thunderstorms too bsms! I’m ready for wintertime to be over though. I know I’ve got two more months of it. I like it some, but I like springtime more and when things are green and riding is good. I like the sun on bare shoulders when it’s not too hot. It makes me happy.

I don’t know if I’m more a cat or dog person. I like them both a lot.


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## bsms

We cancelled the contract on the house in Sonoita. After the house inspection, we had some work we wanted to seller to pay for and they didn't want to do it. In the end, we decided it was more than we were willing to pay without the work and cancelled. It then went on the market for 24 hours and is now in escrow again. The housing market in southern Arizona is very hot, which would be nice for selling our house but has been tough on finding one! The wife and I are exhausted with searching and plan to move back to our house in April (when our oldest daughter starts 6 months of apartment rent while waiting for a house to be built).

That obviously was not my preferred option. It is kind of far down on my list as a horse owner, but there are other considerations in life too. On balance, we think it is best to move back. Maybe until we reach normal Social Security age in a few years. Our son and DIL are offering to give us guardianship of the two grandkids - unless they change their mind, which they do quite frequently. But if we're going to raise kids for the next 2-4 years, then our current home - and all the growth in that area - has some good points. Lots of room (2700 sq ft). The schools are good and there are a lot more activities (gymnastics, martial arts, music lessons, etc) for the kids within driving distance. Our son plans on returning to Tucson by the fall so he'd only be 20-30 miles away from the kids. Our DIL is considering moving back to Tucson by next winter. If so, we might have the kids during school days and they could alternate between parents on the weekends. Until the parents have more stable lives.

I still plan to figure out a way to trailer Bandit. Think we'll look for a used truck with 7,000+ lbs of towing capacity - my current F150 is limited to 3,500 lbs. There is some good riding I could do just 10-15 miles away. There is also some decent riding I could do 5 miles away. But....we need to balance what I'd like for the horses with our finances and the other things affecting quality of life. I didn't realize it, but our time renting is showing me we did, after a lifetime of moving, sink some roots into that area. Family and friends. If nothing else, *I can move back believing this will be best for our quality of life instead of feeling trapped there*. We DO plan to sink some of the money we pulled from savings into things like a good hay shed and upgrading the corral and shelters. AND some remodeling inside the house.

But at least now I view moving there as a positive instead of focusing on the negatives. I do that too often!


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## whisperbaby22

The housing market in my area is out of sight also. We are close enough to the big city (LA) but with a more suburb feel, and folks are spending right and left to get a back yard. The house next door to me, 1/3 acre and a very small house sold for 417. And it went fast, they were asking for 399. It is really hard to get into a house here right now.


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## lb27312

@bsms - well dang, sorry about not getting the new place.... but sounds like you have a positive attitude about it and have plans for your existing place. Sounds like a big place.... I hope it works out for/with your kids, sounds like a lot going on...


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## egrogan

Wow, a lot of big life changes included in that update @bsms. Sorry to hear the house didn't work out, but I like your thought process for going back to your current house. Will be following along with you truck purchasing decisions. If we ever finish renovating our house, I do hope to one day have a truck and trailer.


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## bsms

I understand Tucson being a hot market. I can understand folks in California who now have the option (maybe permanently) to work via the Internet wanting to move away from California - lower prices and more space. What has shocked me is the extent to which outlying areas are also "hot". Places with one small grocery store aren't places I'd expect a lot of Californians to WANT to move to. If nothing else, rural Arizona is probably 90% pro-Trump. That is fine by me (sorry to anyone who disagrees but I don't want to discuss politics) but I can't imagine a lot of folks in California liking it. One place my wife and I tried to make an offer on - only to find out it sold hours earlier - was a small home on 50 acres surrounded by farms. 10 miles to the Post Office where you get mail. 30 miles to a grocery store. Without kids, my wife and I liked it. With kids....the kids would adapt but it had challenges for school and social activities. But someone from SF would go into shock.

We've driven thousands of miles checking out possibilities. Southeast Arizona is BIG. And not many people. Our experience has taught us to drive, in the sense of thinking it might be "normal" to drive 100 miles (90 minutes), go hike for 2-3 hours, then drive back in time for the kids to get back from school. If I could get used to trailering Bandit (and maybe Trooper with him), then there is a LOT of open riding we could do. And maybe that will be how we can compromise between living a place that is very good for raising kids with my need to get away from people!


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## bsms

BTW - I also anticipate needing to get used to wearing a helmet again. I want to get Bandit used to riding along or on a paved road. Paved roads and no helmet scares me, but some of the roads have wide shoulders and, if I can get Bandit confident enough, be places I could exercise him for 4-5 mile rides. Which would be great. But I'll need to push Bandit beyond his comfort zone. And mine.


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## carshon

I am sorry the house fell through. Not quite 10 years ago my step father passed away. My Mom decided that she would be moving back to IL (from SD) and that I should start the house hunt while she tied up loose ends on the SD farm. I looked at over 40 houses - and I hated it. At first it was fun and then it wasn't. She found a great house eventually. You will get the hang of trailering and riding away from home. It really opens up an entire new riding experienec.


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## bsms

Rode Bandit today for maybe the 6th time in 3 months. Stayed in the arena mostly because I knew I was rusty. He's lost some weight. Maybe a good thing. We've had high winds almost every day for 3 weeks so he's been fed mostly pelleted hay (including molasses). And he had energy to burn! We quickly fell into doing a lot of cantering. It wasn't his race canter but it wasn't his relaxed canter either. About in between for speed and very elevated. He was also acting concerned about something to the north and when he's like that, he sometimes does a weird, twisted 45 degrees off-center canter thing. So I used one hand on the reins and one on top of the horn in case he twisted around while cantering. He didn't though. But he DID do a lot of crow hopping canters.

His ears weren't back and he was NOT thrashing his head like when he's upset. I really think the crow hops were thrown in for fun, as in, "_It's about time! I need to burn off some energy!_" But I'm NOT in riding shape and it was brutal on my back and legs. Still, we did 20 minutes, most of it a fast trot or an elevated canter. I honestly was just glad I stayed on! There is a lot to be said at times like those for keeping plenty of weight in the stirrups. When I called it quits - Bandit didn't need to, but I did - I dismounted. Check the cinch and it was very loose. Not quite clear space between it and his belly, but close. For grins, to check, I took about 5-6 inches of slack out after the end of the ride before unsaddling him. For a saddle that loose on a horse that bouncy...glad my weight was down low, into the stirrups. I didn't even realize it was loose until we finished the ride.

It was fun in its own way. Just tiring for someone who has been doing some running this winter but almost no riding. I really think Bandit enjoyed it. He wanted head rubs at the end (and got them). Really no sign he was being [_word I had no idea was considered an expletive but HF software says it is so it has now been deleted_] - which he can be at times. Just had energy to burn.


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## gottatrot

Sounds like a nice although tiring ride. That I can relate to. It sounds like staying at your old house will be the right thing to do, but I think if you can spice up your riding with some trailering out, that will make the horse part of things more interesting at times.


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## weeedlady

Sorry the new place did not work out. Even here in the UP the housing market is crazy. We paid $20k over the asking price for this house we just got in October. There were 3 other people also ready to make offers on it even though it was on the market in the summer of 2019 and all of the summer of 2020. Our realtor said it was as if a dam had broken all of the sudden and property began selling as quickly as it was listed. 

Buying my trailer was the best money I have ever spent. I love having the freedom to take off and ride somewhere new. Both of my horses also like seeing new sights. They are much better behaved when we trailer out than they are at home.


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## bsms

Came across an account of a cavalry unit transferred from SW Texas to the Dakotas in 1888. The unit covered 2200 miles in 118 days, so an average of 18 miles/day. Probably a little over 20 miles/day when actively riding. Another account in the same book said it was done in 58 days, but I believe 118 because the rider who gave that figure said the horses were in better shape on arrival than when they left, and I've seen no account of the cavalry managing nearly 40 miles a day for a couple of weeks or more without it starting to affect the horses.

On one occasion, while in west Texas, they had the water in their canteens only for a day's march, then found no water and had to press on the next day until water was found. They sometimes were at small towns, including in Kansas where the sale of liquor was prohibited:

"_Shortly after we camped, word was passed around that a livery stable close by had some extraordinarily good water, and from the number of soldiers that constantly passed in and out of that stable, and judging from their queer actions after coming out, that water certainly possessed extraordinary qualities.....all across the state, each day after making camp we continued to find the same extraordinary water; *some of it actually foamed when put into glasses.*_"

At Fort Riley, they got a 4 day break.

"_These four days gave the horses a much needed rest and helped to heal the sores on their backs caused by the saddles. Those having the worst backs were turned over to the post quartermaster and left behind.....As my horse was one of those left at Fort Riley...it fell to my lot to ride a little black mule, which the troop had captured from Geronimo's band of Indians in New Mexico, and I believe all the contrariness of the mule family was concentrated in her makeup. As we marched in column of twos, whenever that mule felt like leaving the line to graze on the side of the road, she just went. Orders governing the march meant nothing to her. *She would continue grazing until she felt like moving on, then she would trot along until we overtook the troop and took our regular place in line.* Of course, both the captain and the first sergeant would jump me for leaving the line without permission._" Bold face added by me.

@ACinATX was interested in some of the numbers, IIRC. This was in peacetime, although they often travelled across country, off-road, and had delays in some places with rivers too high to safely cross. BTW, the Army used folded blankets to cushion the saddles. How well you folded the blankets played a large role in how well the horse's back was protected, so those with sore animals probably failed to fold the blankets correctly. The Army had written guidance on how to do it but imagine trying to make one standard saddle tree fit every horse by doing nothing more than folding blankets correctly - at 5:30 AM!


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## Avna

Housing markets are hot everywhere in the US right now. Lots of pent-up demand and very little available housing stock, due to a long term building slowdown across the country. Better to sit tight for awhile, is my thinking.


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## waresbear

Our little town is experiencing a boom in everything! Houses, acreage, everything sells over asking prices, especially horse properties. Horse prices are way, way up and availability, way, way down. Strange, because everything is shut down, rodeos, show, clinics. We, like you bsms, wanted to move, downsize. Decided not to, since we now live in a most desirable, expensive property . Still hate the winters here but we might, might be building an indoor arena, fingers crossed.


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## Knave

Ooh! Indoor arena!!!! Fingers crossed @waresbear!


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## bsms

It is bizarre. My rancher friend in Utah said 7-8 families from Portland Oregon recently moved in mass to a small town near him. The locals are bewildered. Why would people who wanted to live in Portland suddenly decide they want to live in a town of 600 (mostly Mormon) people 30 miles from the nearest grocery store? And while the market where my house is is up, it is mostly cheap homes that are really up. Outlying areas, the small towns 20-30 miles from a grocery store, is where the market is hottest right now. Really? Who leaves coastal California to move to a town of 2-3,000 people, maybe one grocery store, 50 miles from the next town? The homes selling like hotcakes are the ones that, 2 years ago, would have eventually sold for $100,000 that are now selling for $250,000. But....what are city people going to do once they live there? And why is the housing market hot when so many businesses have gone under?

I've seen a couple of housing bubbles over the last 40 years. In the end, home values must eventually connect to wages in the area. And amenities. But for a few years, housing prices can decouple from economic reality. So maybe 2-3 years from now I'll be able to buy in a small town for less? Hopefully a few years from now will see my son and DIL legally divorced (they still haven't filed) and their lives stabilized somewhere with someone and the kids back to living with them. If and when we aren't raising kids, and prices connect to reality, maybe we can find a place in Cochise County or near Safford/Thatcher. Or MAYBE up in southern Utah. Although the southern Utah I loved in the 70s/80s is very different from the southern Utah of 2021! And people are spending $$$ to buy houses in remote parts of southern Utah without ever going to look at the house before they buy. Weird!


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## bsms

PS: Probably be able to move back into our old house Saturday. Looking forward to it. I've missed the horses. I don't think I fully appreciated how much I enjoy having the horses living in my back yard! Still hate Pima County - the only place in Arizona that is keeping a mask mandate - but it will be good to be back with the horses and room for the dogs to race around.


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## Avna

I can answer a few of those questions about the housing market.

1. there is a lack of housing stock in the US of frightening proportions. It is the main reason prices are going up. They will continue to go up unless/until housing manufacturing catches up. Markets correct, but kind of slowly in the case of real estate. 

2. There are many reasons to get out of California. I did! We built our house in the 1980's for about $80K and sold it three years ago for about $800K. Teeny little hand built house. Hard to turn away from that kind of profit. But if you sell, you'll never be able to afford to buy there again, so most people who sell have already decided to move out of the state. 

3. I am guessing here, but some people are buying houses out in the sticks for the same reasons motivating people right now to plant vegetables and raise chickens. Really, the last place you want to be in a global crisis is a big city. At least, that's my opinion, and perhaps some other people's. 

aside: I'm taking advantage of the state of things to raise laying pullets from day olds and sell them. They go like hotcakes. For the price of chicken feed (and a lot of clean up) you can make about a $18 profit per 6 week old bird.


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## lb27312

Yeah the housing market is crazy.... but like you @bsms I've seen some corrections along the way. I for one would LOVE to sell my place at a high profit as I'm in a very hot market right now. I would sell it but then what? I thought about living in my horse trailer then when the correction happens get something then... In the 90's people in California were selling and moving to NV because the market in CA was crazy. But when CA got hit with the correction some of the people went back to get better than what they had.


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## whisperbaby22

Interest rates are driving a lot of this. And yes, people do not want to be in the big city during a pandemic. Many jobs will continue to be remote. With so much money shloshing around right now, it is not the time to buy. On the other hand, I think it will take a few years before correction. And interest rates could get back up there. Remember the 70's?


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## bsms

My first home loan was for 8.5% interest - and I was really happy to get it that low! I agree the interest rates drives some of the pricing. But I remember when I lived in northern Utah (Logan) and had friends in Montana. Lots of people would buy in the summer but then move a couple years later because they couldn't take the snow & cold. I wonder how many moving REALLY want to live in Elfida AZ, population <500:














My wife and I wouldn't mind. Heck, it has TWO Baptist churches! We'd find SOMEONE to have pot lucks with! But it isn't optimum for raising kids *UNLESS* you live on an honest to goodness ranch or farm. We've seriously talked about moving to St Johns AZ. It is a veritable Megatropolis with 3500 people! But a lot of these places are satellite Internet only.

Oh well. I think the housing where we are now will hold its value well. Maybe in a few years I can buy cheap.


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## Knave

That is all crazy! I don’t think there is anything available in our town right now, but since it’s so small you know when someone moves away and when someone moves in. You also know if someone wants to move in but hasn’t found a house. Lol. Actually if you talk to the right people you can even find out why they are wanting to move in and a ton about who they are.

I think probably that’s a bit too small for people’s interests. Plus it’s over 100 miles to the nearest Walmart and 75 in the other direction for the closest fast food. Many people don’t like that who move here, and eventually they move on.


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## waresbear

There are properties available here, but selling almost double of what they would've last year. Some sell too, crazy. A friend of ours had 2 places, one with some acreage their main residence, and a lakefront home they planned to retire to. Both were going to retire in about 5 years. They decided to put their main residence up for sale for $400,000 over the market value. If it sold for that, they would retire early and move to the lake. Sold in two months, for the crazy asking price. They retired.


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## bsms

Moved back into our house last night. Was supposed to do so last Thursday. On Saturday...no sign they had even started packing. Talked to oldest daughter. 6 weeks after giving us her move-out date, she & her boyfriend read some negative reviews about the apartment they were going to move to...and decided not to move. Not until they found a more suitable place. This was the second missed move-out date, so I told her I was moving in Monday and it was going to get real socially awkward with all of us sharing the master bedroom!

When she realized I was serious, she got serious about finding a place. They found a place available Wednesday and mostly moved their stuff yesterday.

I might have been more understanding but the horses have been losing weight the last couple of months. We've had a number of discussions about things like feeding, keeping the corral clean, etc - but nothing was getting better. They paid no rent, only part of the utilities and only real "job" at the house was to take care of the horses. Which includes feeding them properly! And for the last month we've been driving by every few days to give the horses extra pelleted feed and clean the corrals.

So...a bit of tension. Family! But they are out and we started cleaning up the house last night. The horses got their hay well before the winds pick up today, the corrals are clean and we'll spend much of the day today....cleaning.


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## Knave

I’m glad you’re back home! I’m sorry about the tension though.


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## SueC

That's so disappointing when people let you down like that. Not good of them not to stick to their side of the bargain on several counts, and to leave the place dirty. And I think you were right to get serious about moving back in - it's your home, etc, and not uncommonly, when people make a problem for you, the only way you can fix that is by not accepting this problem for yourself, but making it a problem for them - i.e. pointing it back at them - or you're just going to have an ongoing problem, while they do not and you get taken advantage of. I think they call that "tough love" - showing others that it's not just them who count, but that you also have needs. And this includes things like turfing adult children out of your space after giving them notice.

And now I wish you luck hunting your horse transport so you can go on some more exciting trails. ...question: If you've got a vehicle with a tow bar, is there a hire trailer in your area that you can rent for the odd outing until you find the right trailer for yourself? In Albany, there's a hire trailer I've occasionally used in the past when I've wanted to move a horse or go on a special outing (but not for a long time since there's plenty of trails around here).


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## whisperbaby22

I think it's real important to have a trailer. I did not have one until I was able to buy this house, but that's because I could not afford it. Here in the city it was always easy to hire someone if I needed it, but having my own rig is really freeing. I can take my horse to the vet or any trail I want with my trailer. I would recommend getting something that can hold all 3 of your horses in case of emergency. It does not need to be fancy, a small stock would probably work.


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## waresbear

So sorry that happened with your daughter, hope things heal.


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## bsms

We just realized tonight their dog had been using part of the master bedroom bathroom as a place to pee. And pee. And pee. On the wall. Corroded the drywall and baseboard. We were planning on repainting the bathroom anyways and the drywall repair won't be complex....but....it's disappointing. The dog is the boyfriend's "baby" and he doesn't want the dog disciplined - so instead you let it pee all over the house and damage the walls? 

"_There are an increasing number of reports regarding lampposts falling over, and the reason why? Dog pee! A neighborhood in downtown San Diego watched a lamppost crash to the ground on an otherwise quiet Thursday night....When authorities arrived on the scene to remove the pole, experts determined the lamppost’s demise was caused by none other than dog urine. Day after day of dogs lifting their legs on the lamppost finally took its toll._"








Dog Pee Is Causing City Lamp Posts To Topple Over


There are an increasing number of reports regarding lampposts falling over, and the reason why? Dog pee! A neighborhood in downtown San Diego watched...




www.terracastproducts.com




If anyone wants to know why I often say I prefer dogs and horses to humans, I'll tell them, "_I've met too many humans!_" 

It certainly could be worse. But if they do that to us, what will they do to the owners of the apartment they just moved into?

Bandit and Trooper are skinny. Their winter coats helped hide their weight loss. But they are now getting fed and will gain weight soon enough. BLM mustang Cowboy is still a bit chubby. I'd swear he can get fat on air! I plan on getting some short rides on Bandit but I'd like him to put on some weight before trying to ride him more than 20-30 easy minutes. I'm guessing a month for Bandit to gain enough weight that I'll feel like taking him out into the desert. But we'll see. He's a pretty tough fellow and he might not agree with my opinion on his condition. OTOH, *Bob* needs to get into riding shape too!


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## waresbear

If you want to know where urine lurks...get a UV flashlight and turn out the lights. I am still kicking myself for purchasing that thing! Never scrubbed so many surfaces in my life, might not all be pee, but if it glows, I disinfect!


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## weeedlady

@bsms I am so sorry that you are dealing with all of this. What a disappointment, particularly that the horses have lost weight. They will be back in shape quickly though now that you are back taking care of them.

I've said it many times. Buying my trailer was the best money I ever spent. I love the freedom that it give me. 

Looking forward to your further adventures.


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## gottatrot

I can't believe they would let the dog mark on the wall. Also can't understand how horses can get fed inconsistently when they are right outside the door. How frustrating.


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## knightrider

gottatrot said:


> Also can't understand how horses can get fed inconsistently


This is something that has baffled me for YEARS. How can people, who appear to be conscientious pet owners and good parents, allow their horses to get thin? I once gave our World's Greatest Pony to a 10 year old. I had known the family for years, knew they took good care of their pets, their children were healthy, happy, and loved. Yet, they let my pony (a PONY! Always fat) get thinner and thinner. I brought them hay, bags of special feed, alfalfa cubes, rice bran, wormed him, paid to have his teeth done, encouraged them to feed him more, finally ended up taking him back. In 4 months, I had him sleek and fat again. I just don't understand people's thinking. And this family is not the only family who have allowed their horses to get obviously thin. Do they like the look of a skinny ribby horse?

Why do people, who seem competent and reasonable, do this?


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## carshon

I think tele commuting is driving a lot of the moves to small towns as well. One thing many do not realize though is that internet speeds away from larger towns diminishes rapidly! I work from home and live rurally I am very fortunate that our local satellite provider has a tower right near me other wise my speeds barely allow me to work from home!


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## bsms

Agree on telecommuting. But houses are being bought in places where it is satellite internet only. Maybe folks don't know places like that exist? It is like when people assume their cell phone will get them out of trouble when hiking - but I know of a lot of places in Arizona and Utah where there is no cell phone coverage. And culturally. It may shock some here, but lots of rural communities in Arizona and Utah (at least) were covered in Trump flags last fall. A neighbor has a flag: "*Trump 2024 I'll Be Back*".

I think it is funny but but I wonder if folks leaving California and Oregon really want to live somewhere surrounded by Trump supporters! The schools where I've lived have been open for business since last fall and now no longer require masks. Lots of people still shake hands. People not only GO to church. They SING in church! Do people who happily wear masks to zoom meetings really want to live somewhere people shook hands at the height of COVID? I visited a church in Willcox. The old guy sitting next to me - no social distancing - wondered if the government was going to try to impose social distancing on his cows. He wasn't wearing a mask, either, so I could hear him clearly.

It is like the time a guy from New York came up to me in McDonald's and started berating me because Arizona allows dogs to ride in the back of pickups. I listened in silence for a few minutes as he talked about how backward and regressive Arizona is. When I finished my Sausage Egg McMuffin, I got up, shouted "LEAVE!" - and I left. I've met a number of Californians/New Yorkers who found liberal Tucson almost unbearable. People who think Tucson (population 1,000,000 BTW) is a hick town will have trouble finding happiness in Clifton AZ!

BTW - It is legal in Arizona for dogs to ride in the bed of pickup. Same is true of people, including kids. Maybe I should have asked the guy in McDonalds why we would prohibit dogs from riding in pickup trucks when we allow kids to do so? I think his mind would have exploded....


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## egrogan

bsms said:


> But houses are being bought in places where it is satellite internet only. Maybe folks don't know places like that exist?


I think a lot of people are betting on broadband coming sooner rather than later because of the $$$ being thrown around for infrastructure, or thinking about stop-gaps like Elon Musk's Starlink to get them through until there are other options.

I've certainly been naive in cross-state moves I've made in my lifetime, underestimating just how much being a bad "cultural fit" for a place can affect your life. When we moved to Michigan from NC, I thought I knew what it would be like- I had grown up in upstate NY, cold and winter didn't bother me, so for some reason I thought MI would be like that. I couldn't have been more wrong and didn't understand how much I would detest living in the middle of "Midwestern Values." I was thrilled the day we left Michigan. I also underestimated how different Vermont and New Hampshire were- they are only separated by a little river, but the values are night and day. We got worn down by the constant beat of the "live free and or die" vibe and chronic underinvestment in the community that came from the anti-taxation stance there. We are much happier in Vermont as it's a better match for the things that are important to us, including the higher taxes. Truth be told, we would be better off if we were living in a European social democracy, but getting Visas is really difficult right now. We'll see what happens here in the next few years and decide if we need to get more serious about having headhunters help us get there.

Will be interesting to see what happens in your area- I suppose there are really only three options. The place will change, the new people will change, or the new people will eventually leave. Where we live, realtors say "the locals" won't take you seriously until you've been here at least 7 years. I haven't lived in the same place for 7 years since I left my parents house and went to college, so not sure if I'll ever make it to acceptance, as much as I like it here


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## bsms

I really enjoyed England, but I was very much an American living in England for 3-4 years (a dozen miles north of Oxford). I'd like to visit there again, but I'd be a horrible fit for living there permanently. My youngest daughter is living in Georgia. She likes it in some ways but while both Arizona and Georgia are "conservative", she says it has a very different feel in Georgia. But she says Baptists in Georgia are very different from Baptists in Arizona. She doesn't feel "home" in a baptist church in Georgia although a statement of belief might be identical. If she had her druthers, she'd druther live in Tombstone AZ! Except...she has a few more years in the military and there aren't a lot of job opportunities in Tombstone for someone whose job skill is knowing Hebrew.

It really isn't as simple as "conservative/liberal" or "hot/cold". Or "Baptist/Whatever". My politics and religious beliefs would be a good match for Texas - but I've lived there and didn't like it. I can live and be relatively happy almost anywhere for 2-3 years, but...in many ways, I really AM an "Arizonan". Luckily, my Filipina wife is very much an "Arizonan" in how she thinks and feels. Be pretty tough on our marriage if she was at heart a "Los Angeles" kind of gal....

Note: I'd like my youngest to consider cross training into intelligence work. There is a lot of intel work done at Ft Huachuca, which is only 25 miles from Tombstone. We'll live where we are now (Corona de Tucson) for at least a few years but Sierra Vista (Ft Huachuca area) has a lot going for it.







​


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## gottatrot

What I see a lot of is people moving here from busier places, but bringing the attitude with them that made it a bad place to live where they came from. I don't understand how they can't correlate that the reasons they wanted to leave relate the things they are trying to implement in their new place. It seems to be a defensive mechanism to only look out for your own interests when you live in a hostile place, but in a more rural area it is healthier to pay attention and be courteous to those surrounding you in the store and on the road. I've mentioned the attitude about having horses and dogs on the beaches, and those who want restrictions on them. 

Oregon has a mix of attitudes that can really clash, and for example you can within a few miles be in Bend that has a lot of liberal influences or in Prineville where many people have a gun on their hip walking through town. In my opinion it has always worked out better when those who believe strongly in using public transportation or only riding bikes, strong social structures and more regulations live in the cities while those who want less restrictions and support mainly live in the rural areas. This has worked out seemingly OK in Oregon, but the influx of outsiders has been bringing more of the city types into the smaller towns. What we have seen is complete naivety with people who have had three specialists keeping them alive showing up in a tiny town in the middle of the night when sick and expecting to have expert doctors ready to treat them. 

I agree it is very complicated to find a place where you fit in well. We can't stand those who hunt animals for fun and drive around revving their trucks, and we also can't stand over regulation that gets in the way of simple living. When we lived in Portland we had to get very creative in order to keep our car that could not pass the emissions testing. There are those who are absolutely against having a big truck, even for those of us who need to pull horse trailers. There are quite a few people who think it is immoral to have more than one vehicle in a family.


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## egrogan

@gottatrot, Vermont is a lot like you describe- you can have blissed out old hippies on the same street as armed militia types, with everything else on the spectrum in between. It’s a weird place!

I think the idea of people moving in and out of places, and pushing forward new ideas and ways of doing things is on balance a good idea. I don’t understand the impulse of some places to want things to stay the way they’ve always been. Not all change is good of course, but insistence on no change seems worse to me. My little town of 600 people is dealing with this now. We have a 3-person select board and each of the three has been on it for between 20-40 years. This year a “newcomer” ran to replace one of the board members, and enough people signed a petition to add a ballot question expanding the board from 3 to 5 people. About 300 people voted; both measures failed by about 20 votes. It was very much a “change vs keep things the same” kind of situation. I think ultimately, a lot of the newer people who moved here from somewhere else will leave. Maybe not immediately, but eventually. And a lot of people who have always been here will be happy about that. To me it seems sad to not have any curiosity about trying new things, but I know I’m a restless sort of person. I imagine we’ll have a few more moves in us.


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## bsms

It isn't a lack of curiosity about new things, @egrogan. More of a rejection of specific and known differences in society. The taxes of California, the tight regulation of business, tight regulation of life, a desire for a controlling government - those are aspects of Californian government that many of us in Arizona very knowingly reject! The large majority of Arizonans simply don't WANT us to look like California - and many of us have either lived there or had family there. The Californian approach to COVID, featuring massive lock-downs, mask mandates, differential treatment of churches (California has been smacked down by the US Supreme Court 5 times). Resorts in Arizona were filled 100% for much of the last year because of Californians coming to get away from their government - been there, met them - folks wanting to just be able to eat in a restaurant. We know their gun laws and don't WANT them. We can carry concealed in Arizona without a permit - and it has worked in Arizona!

In Cochise County, the schools have stayed open for in person learning the entire year. Masks are now optional in school. They were optional in many businesses. And....it worked. Tucson is fighting to keep masks forever but much of Arizona refuses. I'm glad I never had to stop going to church because government regulation! And again...it worked. Arizona was hit hard - in Yuma and Nogales and the reservations. But we've handled it differently because we wanted to handle it differently. Different values.

We're not afraid of new ideas. We're afraid of OLD ideas. Ideas that have dramatically changed California from the place I visited in the 70s. Where I lived in the 80s and 2000-2004. We KNOW what California is like. And we don't want to follow their lead. And in truth, outside of the big cities, California itself is far more conservative than how they are governed. I liked Tehachapi! Same in Washington, outside of Seattle. As is Utah, outside of Salt Lake City!

It isn't backward or regressive for us to reject the California model. That isn't fear of new ideas. It isn't fear of change by itself. Heck, Arizona changed our gun laws - making them LESS restrictive. That was change, and that change is very popular in Arizona. Heck, Mark Kelly claimed (falsely) to be a big supporter of 2nd Amendment rights in every campaign commercial he ran - because he KNEW it was a losing issue for him. Sinema has taken heat from her party for her votes in the senate, but she is a darn good politician. Not the one I voted for, but she is paying attention to what her constituents want. If she keeps it up, she'll be in office for decades. I might vote for her the next time around. A politician who pays more attention to her voters than her party is rare. I respect that, even if I often disagree with her.

People choose to live in place A instead of B for a variety of reasons. Often hard to quantify. I sound like a good fit for Texas or Georgia, but I disliked living in Texas and my daughter doesn't want to stay in Georgia. I suspect Arizona has a more libertarian feel than strictly conservative. It is much less religious while remaining respectful of religion. Heck, if anything unites us, it might be our dislike of Californians and New Yorkers! If you want to see Arizonans smile, tell them you want a Border Wall - on our WESTERN border!


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## gottatrot

I agree, it's not new things that we dislike here, but things that we know will make our lives less enjoyable. For example, other states with beaches allow people to own the beach. We were amazed when we visited the East and found out we couldn't just go down to the water in many places. I hope that is something that will never change in Oregon, where beaches are always public. If you see a beach here, you can go on it. 

We also enjoy having other people pump our gas. Why? Our weather is not that bad compared to other places. But we sit in our cars and have other people put the gas in, and it is illegal to pump your own. We've been told this provides jobs, and it's just something I've been used to for my whole life except for when we travel out of state. Lots of people move here and want to change this. But Oregonians like it.

I do understand @egrogan's point about "good old boy" systems that don't want any changes at all, and don't accept new people.


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## weeedlady

Having just moved to Michigan's UP I am experiencing a bit of culture shock. We have 2 cities near us. Marquette is 45 miles to the north and Escanaba is 50 miles to the south. Marquette appears to be a relatively liberal, progressive area- open to new businesses and expansion. Escanaba feels stagnant and content to be that way. All of the UP caters to the tourist industry quite a bit. Tourism is what keeps food on most tables here. Tourists are welcomed with open arms, but new residents not so much. 

It is very clear that to the locals we will always be "those people from Ohio". Ohio and Michigan are not far apart geographically or culturally. But the UP is a whole different world. Yoopers like it that way and are proud of it. I'm not complaining-it's a part of why we chose to live here. People here do NOT want newcomers trying to change things or make things "better". If you want to come here that is fine, but don't come here and then complain that things are different or backward. 

I'm sure there are pockets of "small town America" all over the country that are much the same.


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## bsms

I suspect "public lands" are a big part of why I like Arizona better than Texas or Georgia. We lived in Arizona when I was little, but my Dad was in the military and we soon moved again. We visited in 69 and I remember feeling like I was "home" - odd for a military brat who moved every year. We returned in 71 and my Dad died in Vietnam in 72. From that time on, Arizona has always been "home" to me. I apologize for reacting too strongly. Arizona has gained nearly 1 million new people a decade in the 50 years since I moved here. But many of those 5 million (out of 7 million) moved here FOR something, and not just sunshine.

Even in Arizona, the counties differ. Pima County is last on my list of Arizona counties I want to live in. I like Cochise (Benson/Willcox) and Graham (Safford) and Yavapai (Prescott) much better....but, life is full of compromises. It is a bit weird when you can move someplace and suddenly feel like that is where you were meant to be.

I really did like Tehachapi CA, but it is an oddity in the state. Or maybe LA & SF are the oddities, but are the bulk of the population so they control the state - like Seattle in Washington or LV in Nevada. There is a lot of frustration in rural counties because you feel disenfranchised. Your vote means nothing. People with different values control your lives and no election will change that. You just live your life and hope they won't impose too much stupidity on you. And it often IS stupidity because it is geared to city life and city concerns, and those solutions may not work at all well in a rural area.


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## bsms

weeedlady said:


> It is very clear that to the locals we will always be "those people from Ohio".


40 years ago, my Utah rancher friend (before he started his ranch) mentioned a "guy from Ohio" who lived near him. I asked him how long the guy from Ohio had lived there. He turned red and replied, "_Oh, I guess about 45 years.._.." But in small town Utah, he was STILL "*the guy from Ohio*"!


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## egrogan

I get it. I don’t know how it will resolve, since I think we’re only going to see more vs less migration in the short and medium term. And I recognize I’m in the minority in how I feel about that. Our region has had a long period of outmigration (as shown yesterday in the census numbers), and that has its own challenges. In the medium to long term, as the coast becomes less habitable, there will probably be gains here again. And unfortunately for you all, even more Californians on the move!

Also just a thanks to people for having a conversation...these are the things I wish I could discuss with my family but would never be able to!


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## SueC

bsms said:


> We just realized tonight their dog had been using part of the master bedroom bathroom as a place to pee. And pee. And pee. On the wall. Corroded the drywall and baseboard. We were planning on repainting the bathroom anyways and the drywall repair won't be complex....but....it's disappointing. The dog is the boyfriend's "baby" and he doesn't want the dog disciplined - so instead you let it pee all over the house and damage the walls?


I don't get it - why some people choose to live like this - and I'm so sorry you were taken advantage of for your goodwill. I don't get why anyone would let their dog make a habit of urinating in the house - this isn't about disciplining a dog, it's about training a dog who seems never to have got the message that you don't pee indoors (or were they too lazy to let the dog out at night to do this?) - and about living with basic hygiene standards.

...is this the daughter with the previous marriage to the narcissist? Do you like her new BF? Has she chosen any better, do you think, or is she still choosing the wrong sort?

And - is this a case of him/her having some massive blind spots when it comes to animal husbandry (dog pees in the house, horses aren't fed properly, yard not cleaned out enough) and another massive blind spot outstaying their welcome time-wise, but they're good in other ways - or is this a bigger issue to do with how he/she relate to the world? I mean, reading this, I think I'm answering my own question, because OMG, but I'm culturally European and that's given me a much stricter view on things like that than a lot of Australians have (to my chagrin).

A classmate at university used to clean _for a doctor_ and their family, whose dog habitually defaecated in their expensive, plushly carpeted house - and they'd leave it there all week for her to pick up when she came to clean, which was once a week. She, and I, couldn't understand how anyone can live with multiple dog droppings indoors - let alone one. But apparently that's not completely unheard of - see 2:42 here.

Another classmate back then appeared to belong to that category herself. She got herself a pet cockatoo and gave it the run of the house. After that, their place was incredibly unhygienic - bird droppings all along the back of the sofa, in large quantities, like on some pedestals in town squares with pigeons in them. The bird also chewed and destroyed lots of furniture and household effects - as well as the earlobes of unsuspecting visitors, to the massive amusement of the owners, who'd do nothing to restrain their cockatoo and if the visitor defended themselves, they'd remonstrate with them, "Don't be mean to our baby!" 

It's gross. I love animals, and I even have a dog who's allowed indoors - but she's not got the run of the whole place, she's got her own spot in the living area. She comes through to the bedroom at night if he has to go outside, and we let her out of the French door in that room - simple. Our house is clean - and I do vacuum more often because we have a dog, even though she's mostly confined to one area - but I think that's just what you have to do when you've got a hairy animal living with you who sheds and inevitably brings in some dirt, even though we of course clean her outside if she's really dirty before letting her into the house.

I guess I know two types of indoor-pet owners: Those whose house is clean and smells nice (naturally nice, not air "freshener" - you know, clean and with a hint of baking), and those whose house is disgusting - the world normally isn't binary, but this seems to be. Of course, people don't need to have indoors animals to have dirty houses. After all, people are indoors animals themselves...


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## carshon

I think the "mid-western" mindset or whatever you want to call where you live is going to boil down to younger generation VS older generation mind set. I have 4 kids - 2 step kids in their early 30's and 2 of my own age 24 and 21. They all think very differently politically but their over all mind set is more of an accepting one than one of Liberal VS Conservative. They all have more of an live and let live attitude and all have pretty much shunned structured religion even though they all went to church with their Dad and I on a regular basis (I still go every week - my husband works weekends) I really hate the liberal v conservative labels that seem so popular now, but I think they are here for the next few years. I see a gradual shift happening in my area and I live in a decidedly rural area that has always voted conservative even in progressive IL but the elections are leaning less conservative as younger people move around us. It will be interesting to see where rural areas go as non-rural people move there. We are seeing an influx of Chicago folks and it has had some interesting results!


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## bsms

SueC said:


> Do you like her new BF? Has she chosen any better, do you think, or is she still choosing the wrong sort?


We don't know him well. If we came over, he either disappeared into the bedroom until we're gone or stayed in front of the TV, headphones on & playing video games. On the plus side, I don't worry about him shooting us! And my oldest daughter's two kids seem to get on well with him - to the point that they're starting to realize their father isn't all "there". On the whole, he's an improvement. But my daughter has, since high school, seemed to define her worth by how some male views her. I think she needs to spend a year or two without a man to learn who SHE is and see value in HERSELF before she can become a person who can be an equal partner in a relationship. Neither of them want to make a long-term commitment to each other.

Both from a Baptist perspective and as someone who has been married for over 30 years, I think it takes a serious commitment to each other for a couple to push past the inevitable disagreements and bruised feelings and find the sort of love and trust possible. After 34 years, my wife and I still struggle at times. Two strong-willed and independent people who can still get incredibly frustrated with each other. My sister has hit 40 years of marriage, I think. And she still sometimes gives her husband that "I want to kill you" look. My pastor married late in life. They've been together for 15-ish years. I remember her telling some people at church, "I love him. But sometimes I want to kill him!" I'm not alone in finding marriage a challenge!

I want a spouse who is strong and independent. I'd hate being married to a doormat. I think the best marriages involve two strong, distinct, independent people whose commitment takes them into a much deeper and stronger love than mere romantic love. And I think good marriages are also in constant renewal. You can't take the other person for granted. But that requires two people who are willing and able to face the struggles together. Because just being together can be a struggle at times. Two become one while remaining two. It is a mystery.

And I don't know how my daughter can get there if she doesn't know who she is and believe in herself first. I think she needs a couple of years without a man - and with counseling - to become someone who can be both independent AND committed in a relationship. But the easy path is to find a guy without the commitment and without growing as a person first.. I told her I'd tell her what I thought one time then drop it. And I did and have. I hope they find success. Both of them. Not sure the path they are on will get them there, though. I can pray for them but I also believe God lets us make bad decisions.

PS: I love tile floors. Our dogs are in and out all the time, but tile cleans up easy. We have some throw carpets but we can take them out, hose them down, dry them in the Arizona sun - and bring them back in. I love having the dogs with us inside but it requires constant effort. Even without them, we'd bring Arizona dust in on our shoes.

But...our dogs will go to heroic efforts to NOT pee or poop in the house. It is a training issue. And making sure the dog gets a chance to go out.


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## weeedlady

bsms said:


> I think she needs to spend a year or two without a man to learn who SHE is and see value in HERSELF before she can become a person who can be an equal partner in a relationship.


^^^^^This^^^^ Exactly.


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## SueC

That's a lovely post on marriage, @bsms. And yes, it's pointless having relationships if you don't know who you are. I spent 7 years of my twenties deliberately living on my own, and not getting involved with anyone, because I'd had a car crash of a first serious relationship and felt that needed a detailed post-mortem, plus I wanted to see who I could be on my own. One of the best investments I ever made.

I think you might like this song, it's quite funny - singer wrote it for his wife, who by the way ended up leaving him for someone "more romantic" about a decade later, and within a couple of years after that, she and her new beau (famous Australian rock star who behaved in cringeworthy ways once he got famous) had both suicided - him by autoerotic asphyxiation, and she because she couldn't live without him apparently - even though she had three kids to her husband, and a toddler with her new beau. Bob Geldof ended up adopting the toddler so she could live with her siblings as a family. Wasn't her fault what happened, etc.

_That French song playing on the radio at noon
The singer's name was Jean Michel and he's singing 'bout la lune
And she shivers as she comes awake
And remembers how to think
And she shakes the hair out of her eyes
But the daylight makes her blink
And the song it whispers in her mind like a half forgotten sigh
Of times of love the longest days and youth and endless skies
And ooh la la la
ooh la la la_


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## egrogan

I love this! We are a month away from our 15th wedding anniversary. I can't imagine if I hadn't spent those past 15 years in a real partnership.



bsms said:


> I want a spouse who is strong and independent. I'd hate being married to a doormat. I think the best marriages involve two strong, distinct, independent people whose commitment takes them into a much deeper and stronger love than mere romantic love. And I think good marriages are also in constant renewal. You can't take the other person for granted. But that requires two people who are willing and able to face the struggles together. Because just being together can be a struggle at times. Two become one while remaining two. It is a mystery.


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## carshon

I agree on your views on marriage @bsms I am a strong willed person and the product of a 15yr old and 17yr old getting pregnant and then having 3 kids before my mom turned 20. their marriage lasted 21 years - and my Mom has bounced around a lot since then. My Dad married and stayed married for 28 years until he passed away last year at 71. I will be married 27 years this year and most days my husband is my best friend and others days - well not so much! My daughter is 21 and strong willed but still in a relationship with her first "real" boyfriend. I am terrified they will get married and then grow apart. My daughter enters vet school this fall and will be almost 8 hours away - to her boyfriends credit he made it through undergrad with her but vet school will open many new doors for her and he is quite settled here. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.


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## whisperbaby22

Now now, don't write California off so soon. If you look at the last election, the electorate skewed fiscally conservative, and a elected official around here was ahead on election night by 1 vote. Mysteriously, more votes continued to come in for the person in the following days who was declared the winner, but don't think that this kind of stuff goes unnoticed out here.

As for not feeding the horses, a lot of people do not realize the amount of food a horse needs, also that they need to be fed often. 

As for marriage, you have to think, would I go into business with this person? Yes I'm lucky, I have a good marriage. Also, I married someone that I would go into business with.


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## bsms

@whisperbaby22, I genuinely liked Tehachapi. Much of California really is both beautiful and has good people/good neighbors. But....Arizonans don't tend to welcome Californians here with open arms.

Inigo Montoya: But I promise I will not kill you until you reach the top.
Man in Black: That's very comforting. But I'm afraid you'll just have to wait.
Inigo Montoya: I hate waiting. I could give you my word as a Spaniard.
Man in Black: No good. I've known too many Spaniards.

;>)


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## gottatrot

Good thoughts about marriage, @bsms. Our 20th anniversary is this year and I agree very much about being partners and being able to disagree and get upset with each other at times. It is very true about what your daughter needs. I've discussed this with coworkers and family at times. It is very important to have your own worth and to be responsible for your own happiness, rather than putting the burden on someone else of making you feel fulfilled or happy. It also is something you can't do for another person. At times in life I have felt that I could make someone else happy if I was just giving enough. But you cannot. That is their own responsibility. 

I find it very sad to see people who are searching for something from other people to try to create a feeling of worth or being loved. This seems to lead to a lot of affairs and shallow relationships. If you feel secure in your own self and happiness, you don't have to go looking for things from other people that they won't be able to give you. 
A coworker told me about her open marriage, and it turned out her husband had cheated on her, and this made her feel inadequate and insecure about herself. To combat this, she pretended like she was fine and accepting of it, and that they should both be allowed to see other people if they wanted to. But she was deeply insecure and unhappy, trying to find meaning in shallow relationships. She asked me how I seemed to feel secure, and I told her that I felt the best relationships were built on things that were not superficial or physical, which are transient. Being friends and spending time together talking about real things, and making memories that you can talk about in old age, sharing important values, sharing family responsibilities, those to me are things that last. 

There is a lot of thought about trying to make sure your life is how you want it to be at every moment, and so if someone is hampering your style, you should clear them out of your life. I've also heard people say they lost years of their life to a relationship. I'm not sympathetic, because it is your responsibility to make your life the way it needs to be. That can require some discussion and compromise, perhaps, but people usually are contributing heavily to their own dissatisfaction. We always have things we can do to make our life better. Plus life always will have ups and downs. Not talking about blatant abuse, obviously, in the moment. 

People are the same with animals, trying to see if the animal can give to them things to make them happy. They don't value the animal as having their own intrinsic worth outside of what they can give to a person. When difficulties come up, they search for a new and more fulfilling animal. I find this especially sad with older animals that are discarded when they can't be ridden or have medical problems.


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## bsms

Had a good ride on Bandit today. Only my second since moving back. It's been very windy for weeks and we've had very full days working on the inside of the house. By the time I'm ready for a ride, it is hot and windy.

But Bandit needs exercise, so today I rode him in the afternoon. Winds were gusting around 25 mph - milder than most afternoons this spring. Warm but not terribly hot. And I was riding in the arena only since he needs to build up his back strength. The cavalry taught "Walk for muscle. Trot/Canter for wind." Since Bandit needs muscle build up, I was content to walk for just 30 minutes.

That gets boring though, so I followed Denny Emerson's advice and tried my mp3 player. It worked GREAT. I overthink everything and tunes kept my mind occupied enough that I didn't stress over every little thing. And since I didn't, Bandit didn't. He's pretty wind tolerant on his own, so we walked (mostly) for thirty minutes. Just him getting used to carrying my weight around. Lots of turns obviously. A few brief trots and canters. Halfway through our time he decided he'd REALLY like to stop where I take the saddle off. The third time he got fussy about it, I popped him in the belly with my heels and we cantered a couple of laps. He was less fussy about it the remaining 15 minutes.

But the tunes helped me to relax. I sang along. Had to watch for neighbors, though. I'm considered eccentric enough. I might get away with singing along to "Seven Spanish Angels":






But belting out the chorus to "You've Lost That Loving Feeling" while riding my gelding? My reputation is already in tatters. It would go down the toilet with that one!






Still, it was good for both of us. He needs to soften to cues - and he was doing better by the end. He needs to strengthen his back. And I need to relax while riding. And if we can ride relaxed in gusty winds, all the better. Heck, an hour of riding in the arena would still cover a good 4 miles of ground and beats the heck out of NOT riding! It is like my jogging. I often head out figuring 10 minutes is better than NO minutes - and end up running for 30. 30-60 minutes of walking with some trots and cantering thrown in = even if all in the arena - sure beats no one riding Bandit!


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## Knave

I completely agree. Some beats none, and usually it turns into more. I like listening to music when I ride. Cash actively enjoys music I believe. He’s much calmer, and he seems to just focus on my requests of him. He doesn’t love when I try and play pretend dressage queen to the music, but we all give and take. Lol


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## bsms

Good song and a lot of old rodeo photos:


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## bsms

Got another short ride in. Things went really well and, as we neared the 30 minute mark, I planned to extend the ride to 45 minutes. But at the 30 minute mark, the bugs found Bandit's ears. We tried trotting away. Then tried cantering away. But as soon as we slowed, they homed in on his ears. He spent 5 minutes struggling, then I dismounted and let him rub his ears against my arm. That seemed to do the trick...but in truth, my legs were starting to tire and I felt he had given a good faith effort the entire ride. So...we quit then. Artificial goals hamper training.

Used my big leather saddle. I know mathematicians and physicists disagree, but *it is a proven FACT that a 30 lb saddle weighs FOUR TIMES as much as a 15 lb saddle!* I figured the extra weight was extra exercise and back-strengthening for Bandit. And since it covers a lot more area, it should also protect his back better while exercising it more: win-win (Jack the Dog is in the background).






He behaved beautifully. I started asking him to trot or canter 2 or 3 laps instead of one and he didn't mind. I should have brought out a flake of hay, though. Not even good weeds to nibble on right now. I get bored doing laps too, but if I listen to tunes and then he gets to snack, I think he'd cheerfully do 5-6 laps in exchange. But until the bugs got in his ears, he did everything asked with good natured amiability. I'll probably continue using the leather saddle for now.

Bandit at end of ride:






He obviously isn't THRILLED by our exercise, but he behaved without flaw - by my standards, at least. Note: I have the cinch reversed so the sleeve in on the near side. I like being able to use the holes in the latigo and stick the excess in the sleeve. The other side is tied off.

BTW - Used a single joint D-ring snaffle. Tried riding with two hands. Feels WEIRD! It felt strange to ride with one hand, but now it feels weird to ride with two! Guess I need to mix things up more.


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## Knave

He looks happy to me.


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## bsms

Another arena ride. Tried something new that worked very well. Brought out 1/3 flake of hay and then let Bandit stop and eat a little after every canter or trot. He soon decided trotting and cantering was FAR more rewarding than walking. In the past, boredom for both of us meant I rarely asked him to canter more than a lap at a time. He soon decided 3 laps were fine if he got a bite to eat afterward. I think I could work him up to doing 6 laps - about 1/3 a mile - in exchange for food.

My wife took a couple of 10 second videos but only during the first minutes of the ride, when I was still stiff (as always at the start of a ride) and Bandit was just learning that speed = reward. Couple of screen shots:















As Bandit settled in, he adopted a relaxed, medium pace canter that was easy and fun to ride. I had to use 2 hands and a little contact to get him to use the entire arena and not just make a small circle. We did more cantering today than I think we've ever done just because it is hard to find a safe place for it on a trail and I got bored in the arena. With tunes for me to listen to and a reward for him after every good faith effort, I think we both had fun! He certainly started offering to canter - as in using anything as an excuse to ramp it up!

We're still in a turn of some sort at least half of the time, but if Bandit is happy then so what? If my calculations are right, 6 laps would be about 1/3 mile. Done 6 times in a session, that would still be 2 miles of cantering! Of course, if we eventually buy a truck and start trailering him, there are other places we could ride. Safely. But this would be good for him (and me) regardless.

Still some hay on the ground at the end, so I brought Trooper out and groomed him while he munched. Trimmed a couple of hooves and washed his legs with a wet brush. Maybe I could start riding Trooper after Bandit. Trooper is REALLY out of riding shape. It would take some gentle, short rides to work him into shape. Maybe try a couple weeks of regular grooming sessions to build a little trust in me first.


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## bsms

Looking at the screenshots after posting...my left foot sure turns out a lot! But I don't wear spurs and Bandit doesn't care, so if it feels balanced to me....  Neither of us would impress the judges, but if we're happy with each other, who cares?


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## bsms

One more screenshot I liked...bumped down to a trot just prior to stopping to eat...pretty contented horse IMHO:


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## gottatrot

Very nice picture. Bandit looks happy.


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## SueC

It sounds like you are making a horse gymkhana in your arena, as in, the horse wins the prizes and not the rider! Do you think you would have fun with a few actual games? Like slalom around poles at the trot and canter? Maybe some apple bobbing where the horse gets the apple? A playground setup with tarps to walk over and stuff like that? My mare loved stuff like this to make arena work interesting and she was Arabian too. Bandit is looking highly animated!


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## bsms

Used the same basic plan today. Bandit quickly got back into the speed thing, to the point that when I asked him to walk he said, "_Nope! No reward in walking. Hang on!_" So we had a heated 30 second discussion, then I added some reward for walking to prevent him from thinking canter-only. Still, his moving time was spent about 50% cantering, 30% trotting and 20% walking. He canters easier to the left than the right and I've let him get away with it to the point he things right turns are for trotting and left for cantering, so we worked on getting some right hand turn canters today. He did the first couple of the wrong lead and then did the rest OK.


SueC said:


> It sounds like you are making a horse gymkhana in your arena, as in, the horse wins the prizes and not the rider!


This! I can listen to tunes and not get impatient, but Bandit has a lot more "play" in him when HE gets the prize! I've complained about how we teach people to ride. Seems like lesson horses ought to be rewarded for putting up with new riders. If instructors did this - gave "points" to the horse for a good performance and let the rider see how the horse can be taught to be EAGER to do well....well, I think we'd have fewer abusive, "_It's all about me!_" riders. 60 seconds of munching hay, then 60 seconds of "Chew while walking" and THEN a bit of speed work makes for a willing horse. And it is easier for a new rider to feel safe on a horse who wants them to succeed!

At the end, I brought Trooper out and washed his legs, cut some more feathering off, and then saddled him and let him eat some more while I did a bit more grooming. He's lost a lot of weight from lack of exercise. He has very long feathers and with the winds we get, he pees on himself a lot. Bandit doesn't, and Cowboy doesn't, but Trooper does. Trimming the long hairs will at least reduce the problem and make cleaning go faster.






I'm taking inspiration from gottatrot's relaxed approach with her pony to try to convince Trooper, slowly, that we can get along. He's always ridden OK. But his back has lost muscle and it won't be entirely fun for him to start exercising. He's 22-23 now and comes from a line of short-lived horses. I'm about 155 lbs so not real heavy, and the Abetta is under 20 lbs...but he'll feel it. But if I spend some non-riding time with him for a week or two, and then work some munching time into his exercise, MAYBE he'll find it a net positive.


----------



## waresbear

You look like you are enjoying your rides and Bandit looks happy, that is all that matters and of course not falling off, lol.
People that are moving in our area from the lower mainland are called 604'ers, the area code down there. Some people use it degrogatorally, meaning those who complain about open range Cattle on their property, deer eating their plants, horse poop on trails, etc. All of which are legal & acceptable to us Cariboo folks. Not many know how to drive our winter roads, that is scary, so many accidents.


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## bsms

Reading about @Knave's grandfather and old time rodeo got me thinking about this story:








​"It was around 1940, and Hughes was making _The Outlaw_, starring Jane Russell. His crew bought a load of horses out of Oklahoma, and Johnson was asked to deliver them to the movie location near Flagstaff, Arizona. At the time, Ben was working for $30 a month, and the $300 he was offered was more than he could pass up. After the shoot, he took the horses on to Hollywood, and that’s where he stayed.

Ben says, “_They decided I rode a horse pretty good, so they put me in the Screen Actors’ Guild, and I went to work as a wrangler, stuntman and as a double for actors like John Wayne, Joel McRae and Jimmy Stewart._”

Then, in 1949, Ben was offered a 7-year contract with famed director John Ford. The contract was for up to $5,000 per week, and Ben signed immediately “_before Ford had a chance to change his mind_,” Ben explains.

Ben went right to work on such films as _Wagon Master_, _Mighty Joe Young_, _She Wore a Yellow Ribbon_, and_ Rio Grande_. And in _Rio Grande_, he and fellow actors Claude Jarman Jr. and Harry Carey Jr. did their own stunt work in a spectacular Roman-riding scene that’s still a film classic. Anyone who views that scene can easily see that Johnson is a real horseman.

*Despite his movie success, Johnson still felt he had something to prove to himself, so, in 1953, he took a year off and hit the rodeo circuit.* He had been rodeoing all along between movies and, in 1949, had set a calf-roping record at Pendleton, Ore., where he roped and tied in 12.5 seconds with a 60-foot score. “_I really thought I was something_,” says Ben.

He continued, “_I got in a position where I could afford to travel, so I decided to see just what I could do_.” He teamed with Buckshot Sorrells, Andy Jauregui and others in the team roping.

“_That was the year everybody else had hard luck,_” says Ben, modestly, “_and I beat them out and won the world. *I came home with a championship, and I didn’t have $3. All I had was a wore-out automobile and a mad wife.* Fortunately, they let me back in the picture business, and I’ve stayed there ever since._” ”....

....Like other westerners, Ben would like to see Hollywood make some good western movies again, but he’s not sure they will ever be done as well as they were in the old days. “_It’s hard to find young people in the business who know anything about the real West. A lot of them don’t know whether a horse roosts in a hole or a tree. Most actors can’t ride well enough to get in and out of a scene. They’re about as western as my poodle._"

https://benjohnsoncowboymuseum.com/ben-"son"-johnson

I find it hard to believe this was real...but it was! I can't even imagine it!


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## Knave

I’ve seen some of it, but I haven’t done it myself besides in playing around walking. Lol. When I was riding for Riata they had someone who could do it.


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## Knave

I was just thinking: now there’s the job I would maybe leave for. Lots of money to ride for the movies. I could even supply the horses.  lol. Well, maybe not sound ones today... (I was wrong about the other foot on Cash. Something just had me seeing things I guess, but the original foot is not yet better. I started him on antibiotics today.)


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## bsms

Heck, $5,000 a week would be mighty good pay NOW, let alone in the 1940s! Me? I complain if a horse stumbles. Ride two of them at once? Jumping? Yegads!


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## SueC

Knave said:


> I was just thinking: now there’s the job I would maybe leave for. Lots of money to ride for the movies. I could even supply the horses.  lol. Well, maybe not sound ones today... (I was wrong about the other foot on Cash. Something just had me seeing things I guess, but the original foot is not yet better. I started him on antibiotics today.)


Just on that, if the weather is cold the peripheral circulation is slower, in them and in us, so it takes longer to heal things in extremities then. And you can't exactly give him an electric blanket, but it may be good to put him in a therapeutic boot until that foot is healed - just an ordinary hoof boot you've got kicking around would do it and if it's not cushioned, you could put some foam in it for him for insulation, and this would also stop him re-injuring his sole and make him more likely to want to move, which would get his circulation going etc and support the healing process. And you might up his vitamin/mineral mix to "broodmare/heavy work" dose if you're using such stuff, while he's healing (I've got Sunsmart perpetually on "broodmare/heavy work" dose for that because of his Cushings).

Warm poultices are also things that might help in this weather (bran is easy) - just have to have something to keep his foot in it, but the way you do circus tricks with your horses, I'm sure you'd find a way. 😄

Sorry to drop this here, @bsms, and I think I'm leaving it up to @Knave to ride for the movies, because I don't bounce so well anymore and $5,000 also doesn't go very far if I need to be surgically put back together...


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## Knave

@SueC his foot is far too massive for any boot on the ranch sadly. We have poulticed him, but discontinued during the muddy time because it seemed to effect his whole foot badly. I repoulticed today, but with a makeshift boot of vet wrap and duct tape.


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## SueC

@Knave, I was wondering if you had boots big enough for him and wish I could hand you my therapeutic boot someone bequeathed to me through a space-time portal because I don't need it and it's too big for my horses (I just use a Renegade on those if they need one).

In the absence of that, can you Vet-wrap some foam to the underside of his foot in a way that doesn't actually come off? The really sticky Vet-wrap has held up for up to two days for me on donkeys that needed interim foot cushioning - but I couldn't do it in wet weather because everything went slushy...

I think one of the potential problems with poultices is that they're wet and if it's already sodden in the paddock and rainy weather, it may further over-soften the sole and make it more prone to bruising and infection...there's this Goldilocks zone of not marble-hard and not waterlogged that makes for good hoof healing - but it's coming into winter here so that's when I have to tar my horses' hooves to prevent rot from all the wet pasture...

Maybe we need to invent a special huge therapy boot for Cash that's also internally heated...and wireless...

PS: My apologies, as always, if I'm mentioning stuff you're already doing - I just get this "brain dump" when I read about a problem and of course, most of that, experienced horse people are already aware of, and also, I'm sure you've got tricks I'm not aware of that I could apply! 

PPS: Other brainwave, I saw this sketch in a Australian Bushman Skills book of a therapeutic wrap for an injured dog paw or horse hoof, which was a sturdy leather pouch with a drawstring through the top that goes around the horse's fetlock. Of course, making one involves a standard of leatherwork I don't have, but you guys probably still work with leather yourselves?


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## Knave

Husband explained to me today that we could dry poultice @SueC! I didn’t know that, which of course is part of why he needed it off during the muddy time. Definitely then it was sopping his hoof... now it is dry again, but I understood why he wanted it dry today. There is still an abundance of moisture in Cash’s hoof.

I wish I did have your boot! I am finding myself so frustrated. With myself mostly of course... I shouldn’t have trimmed him so close to the last drive.

@bsms I am sorry I stole your journal for a bit!!


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## SueC

I'm sorry too, @bsms. @Knave, your husband seems to be incredibly useful and resourceful! Which has me wondering if he was originally from the country too. I had no idea you could dry poultice and if you're gonna do that, maybe some pics on your journal pretty please with cherries on top?

@bsms, I'm not a Parelli person but I did hang with local Parelli people to do horse playground stuff when I was saddle training Sunsmart in 2009, and had lots of fun that way. Here's some pics and links that might inspire you to make a playground out of your arena...






Gallery | Parelli Australia


Parelli Australia Gallery for all the latest memorable moments from Parelli Australia events throughout the year.




www.parelli.com.au













Pool Noodle Horse Obstacle - PetDIYs.com | Pool noodle horse, Obstacle course, Horse training


Sep 7, 2014 - Our rescue has lots of new toys to play with!! We're feeling pretty lucky right now. A scout from Boy Scout Troop #1, of Duncanville, Texas, decided that he wanted to do his Eagle Scout project at our horse rescue. This past weekend, he and part of his scout troop labored in the...




www.pinterest.com.au









































Those are mainly "obstacle" pictures but you can also do mounted games which are great fun for horse and rider, even just to practice at home. I used to really enjoy doing gymkhanas with my Arab mare, she was the right type for that kind of "high action"!









Gymkhana Games and Patterns - Lessons In TR


(image) Gymkhana offers many great patterns and events to incorporate into your TR lessons! Gymkhana Information What is Gymkhana? Gymkhana is an equestrian event in which riders are timed individually racing through a pattern (such as weaving poles), or compete in games on horseback (such as...



www.lessonsintr.com










The Ultimate Guide to Horse Gymkhana


A full detailed guide on what gymkhana is. All about the events, the gear, and the horses.




horsemanshipworld.com













17 Mounted Horse Games You Can Play


Here are 17 entertaining mounted horse games that will keep students occupied during lessons, horse camp, or just a rainy day in the indoor!




www.helpfulhorsehints.com


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## bsms

I hijack other people's journals all the time. Something catches your eye, you start to share something...and we're off! But the nice thing is folks here always understand. It is kind of like getting together to discuss ideas. Only online and we can't share what we're eating - more's the pity! And given Bandit being Bandit, repairing one's horse is always appropriate on a journal involving him! His original owner said his dam was the same way - if there was a way to get hurt, she'd find it!

I need to research games we can do. The roads will soon be too hot to ride Bandit out to the desert and the hay reward is doing a good job of keeping him motivated. It allows more speed work than I've been able or willing to do in the past, which will be good when we DO get out into the desert.


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## SueC

OMG, @bsms, if we could share food magically during these online discussions you'd all be getting a lot of pumpkin slices (and pumpkin bread, and pumpkin citrus tart etc etc), because I have way more than what we need for the coming year, and fresh pumpkin isn't available locally where you are just now...



I had to use a saw to get through that one for the first cut...


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## bsms

Just after my last post 3 weeks ago, I rode Bandit. I had run 4 miles the previous day and been hauling rocky soil around from the front to the back yard for a future project. My back was tired but it felt good to ride. We worked at cantering. I don't know and don't CARE about cues for the correct lead. I figure that is his business and he'll adjust because cantering on the wrong lead is not as comfortable for either of us. I think he did a flying lead change once. But while my back was getting VERY tired, I wanted to do one more period of canter....and you may have guessed it. Twisted something in my back. Haven't been on a horse since.

We've been moving out the the house in Benson back to Vail. In the end, my son had to do the day of really heavy work. For much of the last 3 weeks, it has taken me 3-5 minutes just to tie my shoes. And every time I thought I was close to being healed, something would happen...there would be a stab of pain....and I'd be back to where I was 4 days earlier!

There are still some tender spots but we've finished the move, cleaned the house (that was 95% my wife) and received our full security deposit back yesterday. My back is the best it has been in 3 weeks. I'm not going to risk a ride today but I REALLY hope to get one in soon!
-----------------------------------​We've had 106-108 temps here. Like much of the west, we're getting unheard of heat. Normal highs this time of year are 99-101 where I live at 3600' MSL. I think it has hit 105 once before during out 15 years here. 108 is insane!
--------------------------------------------------​Talked with my rancher friend. Provo Utah hit 100 the other day. He has cattle as well as sheep - about 10% cattle by numbers - and some of his cattle have died. He started supplementing them with hay he had to buy but thinks he was late getting started and some were too weak. He normally moves the sheep into the mountains in mid-May. Hasn't been able to yet. Hopes to this coming week. It was delayed for the drought. So his sheep had to live on his own land the extra 5-6 weeks instead of moving up into cooler temps. He thinks it is a mistake by the government because the grass where he will go grew and now has dried and is much less palatable to the sheep AND much more likely to catch fire. He's warned his herders to keep alert and be ready to get out quick if there is a fire. And meanwhile the sheep are wasting away because there isn't that much forage on his farmland. Not enough to handle over twice the normal length of time. He's buying hay as all the others are, driving the price way high - if he can find any at all. He'll move the sheep by truck this year because between the heat, the lack of water and how weak they've become. He thinks he'd lose a big part of the herd if he tried to get them to walk the 50 miles trip. So there will be nothing like this:
















I think the sons - who mostly run things now - are inclined to start trucking the sheep regularly anyways. My friend was a history major in college and I suspect he did it in part because the history of it appealed to him. Don't know if they will ever drive the sheep on a 3 day drive again. If not, I've got the photos and the memories.


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## weeedlady

Your post makes me sad in many ways. The record breaking temperatures scare me. I could never live in that kind of heat. It was 85F here in the UP yesterday and I was miserable


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## bsms

At 108, the horses hang out in the shade. We keep plenty of water and salt. They like the salt that comes in rocks better than the salt blocks. They actually are starting to look pretty good although Trooper's hoof crack opened up again just before healing. It hasn't gone completely away in 2 years! Cowboy got out of the corral a couple of days ago and started racing around like an idiot. He's in his early 20s and my wife commented on how beautiful he looked racing around. And he did! Couldn't get him to re-enter the gate on his own so got a lead rope and went and caught him. He stopped running around when he saw the lead rope.


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## egrogan

weeedlady said:


> Your post makes me sad in many ways. The record breaking temperatures scare me.


That was exactly my reaction too. It is hard for me to imagine what that feels like. In all seriousness, can you tell a difference between what it feels like at 91*F and 105*F? It all sounds unbearable to me- but so does anything much over 80*.

@bsms, do you think at some point people are going to start leaving some parts of the southwest because the conditions are just too difficult to live in? How can your farmer friend keep his herds alive in those conditions if they get even worse? In my one and only visit to Phoenix, the nice lady we rented a garage apartment from said that most of her neighbors never thought at all about where the water came from (and watered their lawns every morning) and how much energy it took to run AC all year. I suppose you could probably say the same for us in the rural Northeast about how we don't think much about the gas we need to drive 30 minutes to get anywhere or the oil most people use to heat their houses for 8 months of the year. Looking ahead to the second half of my life, I think the thing that scares me the most is seeing big migrations of people away from densely populated places that become uninhabitable. I don't think that is going to happen quietly and peacefully.

Hope your back feels better and you get that ride soon! With a lot of sunscreen on and water close by 😉


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## bsms

I can tell a difference between 91 and 101, but it isn't a difference that matters if I protect myself from the sun. I went for a walk today. 4 miles while it was 97. They now make polyester long sleeve shirts for jogging in the heat that are FANTASTIC in the desert. Makes a huge difference from cotton long sleeve, and an even bigger one from trying to stay cool using a T-shirt! Add a white Tilley hat and it was an enjoyable 70 minute walk in hilly country.

The water issue is interesting to me. I did some research lately. Arizona used slightly LESS water the last couple of years than it used in 1950! That shocked me, but advances in transport of water and in farmland conservation efforts had really helped. But what hasn't changed significantly is that agriculture in Arizona consistently uses 75% of all the water! For things like cotton - grows better elsewhere. Pecans? A pecan grove can use as much water a a 20,000 person city! Ranching uses very little water. In essence, a ranch can exist forever without depleting ground water. But farming is a different story! Particularly farming with water intensive crops.

My friend and I discussed the future. He recently came across some studies that show the SW periodically has 50 year droughts. One expects that. Statistically, they would be less common than a 5 year drought, but they OUGHT to exist. Native populations were wiped out at times in the past. Maybe due to very long droughts? Modern man can prevent being wiped out by drought by bringing in food and agricultural products like pecans and cotton from outside because the cities themselves use very little water. I dislike a lot of Tucson's politics, but they have partially replenished the groundwater drop that had taken place when I was in high school. The levels are going UP, not down!

But I think we need to seriously restrict the TYPES of agriculture allowed in Arizona to those that don't use insane amounts of water. This would require action by the state government and they do NOT want to touch that political hot potato! Odd as it sounds, many of the big users are also owned by very large corporations based out of state and (often) outside the USA. China and Saudi Arabia own places sucking up water to produce crops that are not sustainable in the long haul. I have NO IDEA why we allow that apart from $$$$$$ going to politicians!

NOTE: Virtually all the pecans grown in Arizona are sent to either China or the EU.


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## bsms

"_Peacock Nuts, a consortium that includes the largest permanent crop nursery in the United States, has even bigger plans: 4,500 acres and as many as 650,000 pistachio trees. “There’s no way we have enough water to be able to handle that,” Cobb said. In Kingman, as in most of rural Arizona, there are no rules on groundwater pumping. *As long as you get a permit, you can drill a well of any size for any purpose as long as it’s for a beneficial use. Agriculture easily qualifies, even if the crops are shipped out of state for profit*....

... Cobb, a Republican representative from Kingman, said the Peacock Nuts operation is "mining our water." She said this is why she is “obsessed” with doing something about out-of-state agribusiness using up Arizona’s precious resources to profit. “The term I heard a lot of years ago was virtual water,” said Marvin Glotfelty, a groundwater expert and consultant. “It’s not legal to export groundwater or surface water out of the state. That's by law. But you can export virtual water.”

Farms from Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates doing just that have angered residents in the La Paz County communities of Vicksburg, Salome and Wenden._"









These 7 industrial farm operations are draining Arizona's aquifers, and no one knows exactly how much they're taking


Investment funds and out-of-state companies have bought giant farms in the state. They're drilling deep wells to follow the water as aquifers decline.




www.azcentral.com


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## egrogan

I have read a few different articles about pecan growing and the water issue. Makes sense that the ranchers need less water overall than something like pecans or cotton. Having policy preferences to support lower impact types of agriculture makes sense-but policy making doesn’t often make sense in reality 

My dad’s brother in law used to be a major exporter of alfalfa from Utah to the Saudi and Dubai racing industry. Got invited to royal weddings and all that pizzazz. Strange to think about going to all that trouble to grow hay and send half way around the world. Years ago I was on the board of a therapeutic riding program and we were having issues getting hay. I reached out to him to ask if there was anything he could do to help us and he just laughed and said “no way you can afford our hay and I can’t afford to donate it to you.” It’s a weird world.


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## bsms

"_With China’s dairy industry putting renewed interest on high-quality alfalfa hay and fewer tariff restrictions in 2020, that country set a new annual record for alfalfa hay imports from the United States. There was some fear during the high-tariff months that China wouldn’t return to the U.S. alfalfa trade market even after tariffs were lifted, but that doesn’t seem to be the case.

In total, China imported 1.18 million MT, eclipsing its previous high set in 2017 by nearly 11,000 MT. Alfalfa hay exports to China in 2020 were 40% greater than during the tariff-riddled year of 2019. Monthly export totals to China during 2020 were anything but consistent; they ranged from 47,836 MT in January to 127,439 MT in April. China will most likely remain our biggest alfalfa trade partner into the future..._" Article dated Feb 2021









Thank China for record alfalfa hay exports


For the second consecutive year and the third time in four years, total U.S. hay exports in 2020 eclipsed 4 million metric tons (MT).




hayandforage.com





Strange world we live in. Who would have thought ranchers in Utah would be outbid for Utah hay by dairy farms in China?


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## Knave

Our hay used to go to Japan when I was a kid. Now an American buyer takes it. It is out of the price range of what you would probably pay for horse hay though (our horse hay), and dairy hay isn’t good for horses. Second crop alfalfa is a good horse hay, but I believe our horse hay makes it to Kentucky. Some people sell their less quality hay to horse owners that are around, and I think they make good money, but they have to be around and sell little load after little load.

Water is crazy here, like I’ve said before. They are trying to rewrite the laws to socialize the water. It was shut down, but is now at the Supreme Court waiting a decision. The oddest point about it was that it made pretend water real (water that hasn’t been pumped), and you could sell your water. I think they included a refill/non refill piece though.

Anyways, the water is being pumped too far. Zeus and I fell into the earth on one of his first rides because it just caves out from under a person. These giant cracks have been created. People tend to not be aware of that. There used to be a pond and a big creek at the ranch, but it has disappeared.

This is what always gets me about the “cows are bad for the environment,” debate. To farm land depletes the land and the resources in a way that well managed livestock does not. So, to grow the food that replaces the meat, one does damage to the environment that would benefit the environment without.


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## gottatrot

Interesting information. 

We don't think about water much here except for when there is too much and things flood. A barn I was at that tried to water 25 horses from rainwater collection and truckloads from the river was crazy though. You don't have to dig a very deep well here!

When I was in Japan I saw they were feeding the same hay I do, orchard grass from eastern OR or WA. They don't have open plains or the climate to grow quality hay.


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## knightrider

Knave said:


> To farm land depletes the land and the resources in a way that well managed livestock does not. So, to grow the food that replaces the meat, one does damage to the environment that would benefit the environment without.


We think we know what is best for our world, then we discover what we thought we knew is wrong. How about the experiments to make mosquitoes sterile? Are mosquitoes any use to our environment? Do we really know?


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## bsms

There are lots of things we don't know and ought to be humble enough to admit it. We do have an obligation to make the best decisions we can based on the knowledge we have - and since all of us have impartial knowledge and imperfect logic, we need to allow politics to be messy, for example, without assuming the worse about those who disagree.

But some of it seems pretty obvious. When the ground is cracking because water is being pumped out, but your politics and laws allow foreign companies to drill 2000' deep wells to grow crops that could easily be grown elsewhere...it's a problem. Wouldn't like it much better if they were local companies. Water is THE most important resource in the desert. That is why it IS a desert - because everything is driven by the LACK of water. Don't think it matters if one is conservative or liberal. The politicians keep acting like they are obedient house pets of $$$$. 40 years ago, I faulted my 60 year old uncle for being a cynic. Looking back, he strikes me as a sunny optimist! If he could come back to life for a day, I think we could talk and laugh ourselves silly.


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## Knave

I think that @knightrider! I don’t know what good a mosquito is, but I know he is something good. God does in fact have a plan for him. That same thought goes for the hordes of Mormon crickets, and the stupid horn flies that bite me while I milk. I don’t know why, but I know they have a position.

We know vultures have a positive impact on our environment, and yet I watched a Ted talk about how many of them have been killed out. I guess that when they dispose of a body they also dispose of the illnesses that body carried. Without the numbers of some certain vulture an illness was spreading in a country that I can’t remember at all anymore. I did however remember the premise of the talk and how important this bird was that those people considered a pest.


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## egrogan

Can we get an exemption for seeing the value in ticks?  Otherwise, I’m on board for this argument…


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## SueC

I'm sorry about your back - happens to me sometimes but usually not for more than two days. Old injury and if I do Pilates regularly it doesn't happen so I see it as a reminder. Also when it happens I do some Pilates stretches to help unkink the trapped nerve - for my injury the most helpful stretch is to lie flat on my front on a mat and then do a slow push-up with my hips staying on the ground so that my back counterbends - and keep repeating to make the arc more pronouncod each time. And to alternate those with cat stretches. Worst thing I can do when my back is out is to sit - best thing to do stretches and walk around and only lie flat on reasonably firm surfaces. Sofa too soft and sometimes the bed is as well. It always feels worst when I'm not warmed up at the start of the day or if I do something stupid when my back is out - no carrying anything until it's better, no asymmetrical movements. My injury is lumbar, overstretched ligament connecting spine to pelvis can pinch a nerve unless my core muscles compensate properly by being strong and engaged - i.e. Pilates, walking, etc.


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## egrogan

@bsms, here’s a solution for your rancher friend! 









Foto del Giorno: Sheep Nanny


Foto del Giorno: Sheep Nanny, sheep backpacks on donkeys in Lombardy, baby sheep carried on the backs of donkeys, donkeys carryign baby sheep, lamb backpack, lamb nanny, lambs being carried in donkey backpack, baby sheep carried in donkey saddlebags, lamb



www.grandvoyageitaly.com


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## bsms

This is maybe 5-6 miles west of the first house that we almost bought (and the one that taught me about high pressure gas lines!):







​Shouldn't affect whoever ended up buying the house - looks to be far enough away and not spreading in that direction. 8500 acres and not contained. An evacuation center has been set up in Benson's High School.

There have been fires within a few miles of my house in Vail - last time about a year ago. To date, none have come any closer. Wildfires always scare me. You can think it is just about out and then BOOM. It takes off again and can almost explode across an open area. Nearly got caught by one in Idaho when I was in my early 20s. Realized later that I had crossed a barbed wire fence getting away and did NOT remember crossing it! I was probably near to flying at that point!


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## weeedlady

Wow, that scares me. Hoping it is under control soon and that everyone remains safe.


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## bsms

"_Late Wednesday afternoon, the weather offered some extra hope of suppressing the fire. There was about a half-hour of light to moderate rain but the storm included lightning so it also carried the possibility of sparking new fires. After a day where some firefighters were right on the edge of I-10, more of the fight has moved away from the road....

The town of Dragoon is quiet, under a “go” evacuation order. Nearby, firefighters have been guarding the Amerind Museum. Fire crews set back burns between the fire and the museum for a controlled burn of grass and brush that otherwise could carry the fire to the museum.

Keeping large animals safe is a special concern when fire hits a rural area. *The J-6 Equestrian Center volunteered to take in horses and other large livestock removed from the evacuation zones..... She says so far she’s just had her usual horses in for boarding because horse owners have offered friends space for horses outside the danger zones*._"









Walnut Fire moves away from I-10


After triggering evacuations and causing temporary shutdowns on I-10 Tuesday the Walnut Fire was moving north away from the highway Wednesday.




www.kgun9.com





A bit of good news. People DO get it right sometimes! My house got about an inch of rain over a 4 hour period late afternoon. First real rain we've had in many months! Won't come close to breaking the drought but it sure helps! Hope the fire got some decent rain too. If it matched what we got (50 miles away), the fire should be contained soon.

The area around Dragoon is, IMHO, uncommonly beautiful. The town itself, however, is in a place where well water is scarce due to the surrounding rock formations.









And after decades of flying, I love the pictures of the fire fighting aircraft - although this picture is from fire fighting near Dragoon 3 years ago!


----------



## SueC

bsms said:


> They now make polyester long sleeve shirts for jogging in the heat that are FANTASTIC in the desert. Makes a huge difference from cotton long sleeve, and an even bigger one from trying to stay cool using a T-shirt! Add a white Tilley hat and it was an enjoyable 70 minute walk in hilly country.


I know this is a minor point, but I want to know more. Heat exhaustion and excess UV exposure are my biggest summer problems on this farm. I find it almost impossible to wear long sleeves because I overheat so quickly, and as a result my arms are quite sun damaged. I can't undo the damage already done, but I'd love to prevent more - please tell me more about what these shirts look like and where to get them from, so I don't buy something that doesn't work... I've tried various things and so far the best has been a loose-weave long-sleeve buttoned shirts in hemp or viscose...


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## gottatrot

Perhaps @bsms means polyester dri fit clothing that Nike, Under Armor and other sports brands make. This fabric is an invention that has changed my athletic life, seriously. I run in dri fit pants in the winter, and long sleeve shirts. When I began running, it was in the days of cotton sweat pants and sweat shirts. Summer shorts were nylon or cotton. Everything made you sweat, and got wet and rubbed your skin off. For waterproofing we wore plastic coats that made you as wet from sweat inside as the rain got you outside. Nowadays we have gore tex breathable, light coats with ventilation and dri fit clothing, and you dry as fast as you sweat and stay cool. They also don't get heavy if you get rained on, so you can still move freely.


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## SueC

Thank you, @gottatrot, that's really good information to have, I shall look out for these things! 😎

@bsms, fires can be spooky. When we burnt our SW boundary three years ago, the fire itself was out after a day and stayed out for another two days, while we patrolled the fireground on a regular basis to see if it had flared up again anywhere. It didn't. The third morning Brett looked out of the window and said, "I think that's smoke, I'm going to have a look." The fire had re-flared from embers and burnt its way up a tree - that's despite the area all around being burnt. The canopy of the tree had caught fire and a branch from it had dropped _across the firebreak_ into our unburnt swampland on the other side, which had not been burnt in 20 years (because regulations prevented the prior owner and us from burning it, by making it illegal to burn before Easter - by which time the swampland was always too wet already to burn).

This was a dry year, and most of the valley floor went up in a hot fire - 10 hectares of it. We called in the local volunteer brigade (of which we're members) with large fire trucks so it wouldn't leap the fence, and though the fire flared higher than the canopy, a good 30m into the air - on a cool, still day - we can only imagine what would have happened on a windy day in summer. There's no question that our place is so much safer now, and the valley floor has regenerated beautifully, no longer choked by half-dead, highly flammable tea-tree. In another three years we'll have to look at burning the dry patches in this valley floor, in the indigenous small-mosaic style, so that it never gets so dangerous across the board again.

By the way, the brigade extinguished that fire, when it was burnt out, with water at the edges etc. We patrolled regularly for three days to make sure there were no further flare-ups, and could never see any. Some logs were still smouldering, these can take weeks to go out. But all looked fine.

...and on the fourth morning I was patrolling. No flare-ups on our side. Everything quiet. Across 8 metres of double firebreak to the south neighbour, I could see that the bush around his farm dam was alight. I rang him in confusion: Was he doing a controlled burn? (Fires are usually not left unattended.) He said no, and we called in the fire truck again. We spent the rest of the morning putting this particular fire out as a brigade. It must have come somehow from our side but I was scratching my head and it gave me the willies. Brett and Noel said to me, "All it takes is a couple of embers in the wrong spot. It can happen long after the flames are out."

I tell you what worries me even more than these "ghostly" fires: When nobody bothers to do (smaller-scale, indigenous-style) fuel reduction burns and large areas (not just our 10 hectares, that's peanuts - thousands of hectares) end up long unburnt like that valley floor of ours. Then something terrible happens on a summer's day and it's an inferno that burns wildlife, houses and people in monster flames. Tim Flannery, an eminent Australian ecologist, thinks one of the main reasons for Australia's current species extinctions is that indigenous people were taken off the land and their fire management practices with them, which had prevented most large-scale bushfires, and helped create fresh food and a healthy ecosystem for many of the native animals the Aboriginal Australians hunted to survive.

It just so happens that here's an article I saw today about a family who had to completely rebuild after the 2013 Dunalley fires in Tasmania. This picture of the grandmother sheltering from the fire with her grandchildren made headlines around the world back then:










The rest of the article is here and well worth reading, it's informative and also a great story of resilience:









When the Dunalley fires 'cooked' their garden this couple put down new roots


Eight years ago, the Holmes family became the face of the Dunalley fires as they sheltered under a jetty. Not only have they rebuilt their home, their garden, which was "cooked" by the blaze, has also risen from the ashes.




www.abc.net.au






ETA: @egrogan, that donkey nanny story made our day!


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## bsms

I've used a couple of brands but Hanes Men's Long Sleeve Cool Dri T-Shirt UPF 50+ are a good match, performance and cost wise, for me. Of course, we often have humidity below 15%! 

I agree about controlled burns. We were taught to do them when I took classes in Natural Resource Management in the late 70s but too many places have stopped because of legal concerns. We made a small fire a week ago to burn up some prickly pear we had cut down much earlier. That evening, I went to the "out" fire and started pouring water on it...and steam! LOTS OF STEAM! It was a 3 foot diameter burn spot but it took me 30 minutes of running water and shovel work to get it all out. Makes me worry about underground fires, but happily no coal around here to fuel them:

"Mount Wingen in New South Wales, Australia is commonly known as Burning Mountain, partly for the red regolith that colors its summit, but primarily because an actual fire smolders one hundred feet below its surface, and has done so for at least 6,000 years! This is the oldest-known natural coal fire."

Fire burning underground in Utah can’t be extinguished


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## weeedlady

I grew up near the "muck farms" in Copley, Ohio. What we call "muck" is, I believe, very much like peat. It is very rich, black soil entirely made of organic materials. Once when I was a kid, my dad accidently caught our dirt on fire! It burned slowly for at least a week before he was able to completely extinguish it. Scary!


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## SueC

I'm late for a discussion you guys had several days ago but did want to participate in it...



bsms said:


> Arizona used slightly LESS water the last couple of years than it used in 1950! That shocked me, but advances in transport of water and in farmland conservation efforts had really helped. But what hasn't changed significantly is that agriculture in Arizona consistently uses 75% of all the water! For things like cotton - grows better elsewhere. Pecans? A pecan grove can use as much water a a 20,000 person city! Ranching uses very little water. In essence, a ranch can exist forever without depleting ground water. But farming is a different story! Particularly farming with water intensive crops.


The same insanity happens in Australia, in the low precipitation areas near the Murray-Darling district. The river is dying because of it, and I remember being in first year high school here back in 1983 and hearing the environmental scientists saying, "We need to change this now or we are heading for disaster!" and of course nobody listened to them as usual. Now we have the disaster that was predicted decades ago. 😡 Fish kills, dried-up creeks, toxic algae, falling groundwater tables killing the bushland (=more habitat loss and biodiversity collapse) and drying up agricultural bores that get sunk ever deeper.

They grow irrigated cotton and rice in those dryland areas. Excuse me for thinking rice should be grown in tropical and sub-tropical areas, like Japan and South-East Asia. I get it that we may not get enough from these traditional areas for the ludicrously bloated human population and the main issue is that we need to do something about halting exponential population growth rather than saying, "Ah well, the population will stabilise by itself when every country in the world is industrialised." The planet won't survive global industrialisation and the concomitant explosion of Western materialism and waste in currently low-footprint countries. I'd personally prefer it if humans used their brains and contraception instead of us wiping each other out with wars over resource shortages, and having pandemics (the current one is a mere baby of what we're going to see if we don't stop) and starvation kill off our excesses - but it appears our species won't learn. So I think nature is going to reduce the human species back to low levels through the usual means, which also happen to be famously embodied in the Apocalyptic Horsemen because that's what always deals with human population excess.

People keep saying, "Paul Ehrlich said that in the 1960s and we're supporting many more people now." We did it at the expense of other species we've wiped out in the process, by bulldozing millions and millions of hectares of natural ecosystems for agriculture and housing developments, and by further poisoning the planet. The planet is in worse shape because of it, just like a paddock is after you've overstocked it. And just because the house of cards hasn't collapsed yet doesn't mean it's not going to.

Ecosystem indicators across the world are already frightening. We're losing ever more native vegetation and biodiversity, cutting down rainforests and other old-growth forests like there's no tomorrow and we don't need oxygen, in a few years the total weight of plastic in the oceans will exceed the total weight of fish, there's cocktails of toxic industrial chemicals in human breast milk and in the body fats of every one of us (and in the cord blood of every newborn baby), including chemicals that were banned in the West decades ago, like DDT which continues to persist in the ecosystem and continues to be used in poor countries, where industrialised nations dump dangerous chemicals that are no longer permitted in our own countries.

Stewardship this ain't. It's total insanity.



bsms said:


> I dislike a lot of Tucson's politics, but they have partially replenished the groundwater drop that had taken place when I was in high school. The levels are going UP, not down!


It's nice to have some good news!



bsms said:


> But I think we need to seriously restrict the TYPES of agriculture allowed in Arizona to those that don't use insane amounts of water. This would require action by the state government and they do NOT want to touch that political hot potato! Odd as it sounds, many of the big users are also owned by very large corporations based out of state and (often) outside the USA. China and Saudi Arabia own places sucking up water to produce crops that are not sustainable in the long haul. I have NO IDEA why we allow that apart from $$$$$$ going to politicians!


A start could be made by at least regulating against any more putting in of water-intensive crops, and by giving water quotas to existing water-intensive farmers that have to be reduced slightly each year to motivate people to come up with even better water use efficiency - and to support that with research&development of better technologies and practices (which is what our Department of Agriculture used to do really well in the 1990s before they were progressively strangled by funding cuts - a real pity, because it was great that the community, via the state, employed motivated professionals who were making a difference and because the private sector won't pick up that kind of work because it's not-for-profit realistically - so people, please support government employment of environmental, agriculture and other professionals, as I'm sure you do with teaching professionals in public schools - because education shouldn't just be for the wealthy and should be excellent no matter how poor the parents of the kids are).

So, @bsms, you're talking about the need for regulation here, which I agree with for so many areas - for example, in Japan the government regulates the quality of whitegoods that's allowed to be sold by holding an annual competition to determine the most energy-efficient products in each category. That then is the new benchmark, and a couple of years later that is the minimum standard for anything allowed to be sold in Japan. So their appliances become more and more energy-efficient, while Australia doesn't regulate and is a dumping ground for energy-inefficient whitegoods. Germany did extremely well with solar uptake because there was government regulation and favourable policies, etc. See:





__





Energy efficiency: Not in Australia mate! - ABC Radio National


In forty years Australia’s energy efficiency record has barely improved. We’re a land of air con, power hungry industry, and fuel guzzling cars. But electricity is no longer cheap, and we have to deal with carbon emissions. Energy savings could deal with both. Yet the message has been swept...




www.abc.net.au





I kind of think that running an unregulated economy is like the idea of running an unregulated classroom where you just trust the children to behave well off their own initiative. They're mostly not going to, it would be a race to the bottom (at least in Western classrooms) and it's your job as an adult to maintain the standards and fairness of that room and to model and teach good behaviour. I think the same goes for running a state or country. Sadly the people in charge of that are rarely good role models or truly interested in the common good and the long term; they're usually more interested in the perks of the job and the ability to manipulate the system for their personal gain and their mates' and in being re-elected for the next political cycle - and they often don't understand the complexities of what they're dealing with - and then there's the Dunning-Kruger effect etc.

I know that's an enormous systemic problem, and I don't know what the answer to that is, except things like an educated and caring community who remind the politicians of the issues, and having decent people in jobs that can make a difference. But that's a bit like a situation where a bunch of children have a corrupt teacher and are trying to change that and the injustices thus imposed. Good luck to you...

The best book I've seen to explain how the current Western political and economic systems work against positive change is this one:





__





Naomi Klein | This Changes Everything







naomiklein.org





I know some of you don't believe that there's anthropogenic climate change, but I think you can all see the many other forms of environmental degradation in the last decades of your lives, so I'd urge you to read this anyway and just substitute things like "groundwater depletion" for your reasons to read it - because it shows you what you're up against trying to make a positive change in anything that benefits the planet and the community, rather than the ruling classes and corporations. It's depressing and it's outrageous, and that was not the intention of the book. The author is a fine investigative journalist, not a shock jock - and she meticulously references everything so you can go back to the sources yourselves.

Some of the things that are going on around the world where large corporations are actively taking away the rights of local communities to live as they hitherto have - in rural Greece, on various islands, etc etc etc and via the collusion of the local politicians but also without that, via "free trade" regulations etc - make very hard reading indeed, and don't get much international press coverage so slip by without most of us ever knowing about it (even in the Internet age).

And I've come up against the very same issues myself, as did my colleagues, when I was professionally working as an environmental scientist in the 1990s. The right thing to do, and which was resoundingly supported by the local farming community, did not get done - in the end, it was the tree plantation corporations that got the public money that you and I as citizens pay as taxes, not the small family farmers who would have used the money in ways that would actually have had significant environmental and social benefits (which the tree plantations have very little of, if any).




bsms said:


> "_Peacock Nuts, a consortium that includes the largest permanent crop nursery in the United States, has even bigger plans: 4,500 acres and as many as 650,000 pistachio trees. “There’s no way we have enough water to be able to handle that,” Cobb said. In Kingman, as in most of rural Arizona, there are no rules on groundwater pumping. *As long as you get a permit, you can drill a well of any size for any purpose as long as it’s for a beneficial use. Agriculture easily qualifies, even if the crops are shipped out of state for profit*....
> 
> ... Cobb, a Republican representative from Kingman, said the Peacock Nuts operation is "mining our water." She said this is why she is “obsessed” with doing something about out-of-state agribusiness using up Arizona’s precious resources to profit. “The term I heard a lot of years ago was virtual water,” said Marvin Glotfelty, a groundwater expert and consultant. “It’s not legal to export groundwater or surface water out of the state. That's by law. But you can export virtual water.”
> 
> Farms from Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates doing just that have angered residents in the La Paz County communities of Vicksburg, Salome and Wenden._"


It is heartening for me to read cases where community and local political engagement is able to make a resistance to current Western "business-as-usual".





egrogan said:


> My dad’s brother in law used to be a major exporter of alfalfa from Utah to the Saudi and Dubai racing industry. Got invited to royal weddings and all that pizzazz. Strange to think about going to all that trouble to grow hay and send half way around the world. Years ago I was on the board of a therapeutic riding program and we were having issues getting hay. I reached out to him to ask if there was anything he could do to help us and he just laughed and said “no way you can afford our hay and I can’t afford to donate it to you.” It’s a weird world.


And it's a form of social injustice that a bunch of Middle Eastern rich guys feeding their hobby racehorses can outbid the people in the country of origin who need hay, often for far less spurious reasons. If you think about the environmental footprint of growing and then shipping that stuff halfway across the planet, to do what? I know the argument will be that farmers can enjoy the higher prices (and often, farmers are living on the bare bones of their backsides and really need extra money - and we need to make sure farmers get active, systematic community support etc), but if you count the social and environmental costs of this kind of madness, it's a different story. The problem is, generally we don't. Where would the hay grown in your local areas actually have the best benefit to the overall system, and benefit the most people all around? If we're only counting money for a sales transaction, we're not factoring in true costs to the wider local communities and the planet. We can't let money be in the driving seat for everything we do - it's got to be decent principles and the interests of the wider community and the planet, or we're going to continue to live in a crazy, broken, dying world. (See also the story of the Golden Calf, which is a lovely metaphor for this kind of madness.)




bsms said:


> Strange world we live in. Who would have thought ranchers in Utah would be outbid for Utah hay by dairy farms in China?


Yeah, as above. And it's a case of a culture that never used to have much in the way of dairy products in their lives and did perfectly fine without that on their local agricultural produce becoming Westernised and wanting a Western diet and lifestyle, neither of which are actually that great for health and happiness. Recently, @MeditativeRider wrote a post on exactly this kind of problem on my journal - how NZ agriculture is rapidly becoming a dairying monoculture for exporting dairy products to places that never culturally used to have them in the diet, like China - causing social and environmental problems in NZ, and probably animal welfare issues as well (because of increasingly industrialised farming).




Knave said:


> Water is crazy here, like I’ve said before. They are trying to rewrite the laws to socialize the water. It was shut down, but is now at the Supreme Court waiting a decision. The oddest point about it was that it made pretend water real (water that hasn’t been pumped), and you could sell your water. I think they included a refill/non refill piece though.
> 
> Anyways, the water is being pumped too far. Zeus and I fell into the earth on one of his first rides because it just caves out from under a person. These giant cracks have been created. People tend to not be aware of that. There used to be a pond and a big creek at the ranch, but it has disappeared.


I hope the solution in your area becomes an actual solution, and not the expensive farce that happened in our Murray-Darling system.




Knave said:


> This is what always gets me about the “cows are bad for the environment,” debate. To farm land depletes the land and the resources in a way that well managed livestock does not. So, to grow the food that replaces the meat, one does damage to the environment that would benefit the environment without.


I think people need to make a distinction between free-range grazing, and industrialised animal farming - for environmental and animal welfare reasons. Sadly, though we produce small-scale beef (off our smallholding) via free-range and sustainable (for this land) grazing, because of the way the WA system is set up (no local abattoirs so all the animals from all production systems go anonymously to the same central WA abattoir a long way away and therefore we can't market our own beef) there is no way the consumer can tell what's farmed in what way and make a choice about it. It all looks the same once it's on a tray.

Because of human overpopulation, the demand for animal protein has become such that it can't be satisfied anymore by animals produced to high environmental and welfare standards. That's one reason the average Westerner does have to consider dropping their meat consumption - as the average Westerner does eat more meat than is necessary for good health, and more than is generally eaten in other cultures (excluding the Inuit, and other hunter-gatherer cultures in areas with poor plant options).

Totally with you re well-managed livestock grazing. We bought our smallholding from a farmer who had four titles to graze beef and the place here has produced beef since the 1950s, so we continued with this. We can do so without a tractor and other expensive machinery and without importing a great deal of fodder - we grow tree fodder as a hay substitute and only rarely buy in a roll of hay, to provide roughage in mid-winter when the grass can be too low in it, to supplement the tree fodder. I'm buying a few bags of cow cubes to help out the newly weaned calves we bought at the moment, but if you look at our overall production system, over 90% of the calories our animals consume in their lifetimes are pasture grasses they consume on our fields, and most of the rest is our own tree fodder.

We're capital-poor and do traditional, low-machinery sidelines like beekeeping and a bit of small-scale vegetable growing. So we're essentially farming with a very low fossil fuel input (we occasionally pay a neighbour with a tractor to do some work for us like putting in wooden posts or burying pipe) and a low footprint, and because of the work we put in, we get more out of this piece of land than what was previously produced. But this requires having people on the land, and what we're doing is actually uneconomical compared to me going out instead to earn a fulltime salary. Because it's still economical for us and we like the lifestyle and the idea of stewarding the land, we do it anyway. The main barrier to having people on the land is the price of land - and then there's the price of agricultural produce, which I think is too low in our system. This is why we're seriously looking at sharefarming with some Tiny House people we could host - it would make the land more productive, without environmental disadvantage. Because I don't have enough hours in the day to do everything and others don't have the money to buy farmland, let alone a house.




gottatrot said:


> When I was in Japan I saw they were feeding the same hay I do, orchard grass from eastern OR or WA. They don't have open plains or the climate to grow quality hay.


And _some_ international trade like that is OK - but not the way it's gone overboard since globalisation. It irks me to see Californian lemons being sold in my local supermarket when the local trees are bursting with lemons. It's unnecessary, and it would be equally ridiculous to buy Australian lemons in a Californian supermarket.




knightrider said:


> We think we know what is best for our world, then we discover what we thought we knew is wrong. How about the experiments to make mosquitoes sterile? Are mosquitoes any use to our environment? Do we really know?


Mosquitoes help feed the bird populations, for example. Also their role as disease vectors actually helps control population excesses of various animal species, including humans (though we fight it tooth and nail - and see my previous comments, I'd prefer people to use contraception than for people to die from malaria, civil wars etc).




bsms said:


> There are lots of things we don't know and ought to be humble enough to admit it. *We do have an obligation to make the best decisions we can based on the knowledge we have* - and since all of us have impartial knowledge and imperfect logic, we need to allow politics to be messy, for example, without assuming the worse about those who disagree.


I so agree with you on this. Doing the best we can, open respectful dialogue, realising our imperfections and that we need to work together constructively and for the common good, not just the good of a few people with power and money. And here we are, back with the ideas of love and respect and community. Kind of hippie and kind of reminds me of the gospels too! 😜



bsms said:


> But some of it seems pretty obvious. When the ground is cracking because water is being pumped out, but your politics and laws allow foreign companies to drill 2000' deep wells to grow crops that could easily be grown elsewhere...it's a problem. Wouldn't like it much better if they were local companies. Water is THE most important resource in the desert. That is why it IS a desert - because everything is driven by the LACK of water. *Don't think it matters if one is conservative or liberal. The politicians keep acting like they are obedient house pets of $$$$.*


Yep, and they call it the "free market" when they do, even though the "free market" is often anything but - it's often just more freedom for corporations over ordinary citizens - and even when it is an actual free market, doesn't always mean it's a wonderful thing. People need to sit down and think, and talk and work with each other - not let the dollar drive everything.

And it's not always easy being an ethical consumer either, for lack of information with products, or because you're too poor to buy free-range eggs etc (as I was as a university student, and there's so many people on the poverty line - but on the other hand, there's also people not prioritising the money they do have well, e.g. you could afford those free-range eggs if you had a small fuel-efficient car instead of a flashy guzzler - and we need to understand that what we give our money to is what we vote for and actively support with our wallets).




bsms said:


> 40 years ago, I faulted my 60 year old uncle for being a cynic. Looking back, he strikes me as a sunny optimist! If he could come back to life for a day, I think we could talk and laugh ourselves silly.


Yeah, you know the saying? Young men think old men are fools. Old men _know_ young men are fools! 🙃




Knave said:


> I don’t know what good a mosquito is, but I know he is something good. God does in fact have a plan for him. That same thought goes for the hordes of Mormon crickets, and the stupid horn flies that bite me while I milk. I don’t know why, but I know they have a position.
> 
> We know vultures have a positive impact on our environment, and yet I watched a Ted talk about how many of them have been killed out. I guess that when they dispose of a body they also dispose of the illnesses that body carried. Without the numbers of some certain vulture an illness was spreading in a country that I can’t remember at all anymore. I did however remember the premise of the talk and how important this bird was that those people considered a pest.


Excellent example. And I'm so glad I'm sharing the planet with you! ❤

❤ to all of you. Thanks for who you all are and what you try to do. 🐙


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## MeditativeRider

SueC said:


> Yeah, as above. And it's a case of a culture that never used to have much in the way of dairy products in their lives and did perfectly fine without that on their local agricultural produce becoming Westernised and wanting a Western diet and lifestyle, neither of which are actually that great for health and happiness. Recently, @MeditativeRider wrote a post on exactly this kind of problem on my journal - how NZ agriculture is rapidly becoming a dairying monoculture for exporting dairy products to places that never culturally used to have them in the diet, like China - causing social and environmental problems in NZ, and probably animal welfare issues as well (because of increasingly industrialised farming).


I don't know how relevant this is to the current discussion as I did not have time to read it all, but I was just reading this article this morning on a NZ news site, and it has some great images of how the landscape in NZ has changed with intensive agriculture. This is all over a relatively short period of time too. I am only 40, and when I was 8, most of these places were either sheep farms, cattle, or not developed for agriculture at all. I have absolutely no qualms with well-managed agriculture, just the intensive/industrial scale stuff that is done for huge profits for a few multinational companies.

In this case, the article has photographs of an area in NZ that has been heavily converted (mostly to dairy) around braided rivers. Not sure if you all are familiar with braided rivers as I know there are not many in the world, but they have multiple paths rather than just one river bed and change all the time. Many areas in NZ have converted land that is in the plains of these braided rivers to agriculture. And the error of this was all laid apparent in recent floods.

Even if you do not read the words in the article, the images are really telling.









The Rewilding Project: The movement to revive our 'zombie' rivers


Aotearoa New Zealand's internationally significant braided rivers have been systematically strangled, leaving behind a network of zombie rivers. As climate change presents new challenges, a new movement seeks to end the long-running war on our rivers.




interactives.stuff.co.nz





And on the trying to sell dairy to non-dairy eating cultures, Fonterra in NZ once developed a chocolate cheese for the Chinese market to try get them into dairy.





__





Fonterra lures new consumers in Asia with chocolate cheese - NZ Herald


Latest breaking news articles, photos, video, blogs, reviews, analysis, opinion and reader comment from New Zealand and around the World - NZ Herald




www.nzherald.co.nz


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## MeditativeRider

bsms said:


> But I think we need to seriously restrict the TYPES of agriculture allowed in Arizona to those that don't use insane amounts of water. This would require action by the state government and they do NOT want to touch that political hot potato! Odd as it sounds, many of the big users are also owned by very large corporations based out of state and (often) outside the USA. China and Saudi Arabia own places sucking up water to produce crops that are not sustainable in the long haul. I have NO IDEA why we allow that apart from $$$$$$ going to politicians!


We have the same here in NZ. Lots of conversion to intensive dairy in places that are dry and have to be highly irrigated to achieve it. Lots of it for dairy products to be shipped overseas to markets that did not traditionally eat dairy products.

We also have foreign water bottling companies buying up ground water extraction rights to bottle water and ship it overseas. Crazy. Fresh, drinkable water is so important and only going to become more important in the future.


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## bsms

We've had several days of light but consistent rain here...maybe 0.1-0.2" a day for several days. Yesterday we got at least an inch of rain over several hours. Hoping and praying this is the start of a good monsoon season. The corral looks like this:








I need to raise up the side with the mud. That is where the water and dirt flow down to and if I gradually raise it I should be able to level the corral. Another project we started on a few days ago is clearing out the Yucca plants:








My reciprocal saw (battery powered) cuts yucca well. It is very hard to DIG them up. The roots are extensive and pack rats make nests in the roots. Digging them up puts bacteria and rat feces and nasty stuff into the air and makes me sicker than sick. So my new plan - cut them off at ground level. Then keep cutting several times a year until the roots run out of energy for regrowth and die. The plants suck up a lot of water and I think the mesquite trees will flourish once the yucca is...not gone, but unable to grow. When things dry out a bit, I'll load them onto our utility trailer and haul them to the landfill.

We also have some 10' tall stands of prickly pear that are beat down and diseased. The saw cuts thru them well too. BTW - I have 5 batteries for the saw so the limit on cutting is when I start getting blisters on my hand. Need to wear gloves. Because of the spines of both plants, it involves holding the saw out in one hand and cutting until I can get to the main part of the support. Reciprocal saws vibrate and aren't really meant to be use with one hand. Not unless the user is a lot bigger than me!

We plan to clear out some of the creosote brush as well and expand the riding area for the arena with some VERY short "trails" (100' tops) between the remaining mesquite. Just to add variety. Even with 2 acres, there is plenty to do outside. And inside. My back is FINALLY healed from its twist a month ago and now I need to finish working on the inside of the pantry too. I have almost no experience working drywall so my BIL came over and gave me a 4 hour lesson. Now I can practice on the inside of the pantry where any bad work will be hidden behind canned goods. There are some things a person can only learn by doing. And making mistakes. A bit like riding and training horses.

When the mud dries, I'll start riding again. But I won't mind in the least if we keep getting rain for a while longer!

From Tucson's channel 9 news:


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## weeedlady

Drywall is not easy to do.


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## bsms

My youngest daughter is home on leave. She's celebrating the 4th of July as she traditionally does. She has self-imposed a ban on drinking tea for 24 hours, viewing it as lacking patriotic fervor during the 24 hours of the 4th. She is also watching, as she does annually, the musical 1776. It is easy to forget that while we know the outcome, the men involved had no idea if their actions would result in their being hung - and yes, it was a mixture of good and evil, as most things done by humans are:











The TV series John Adams was also good:




And tomorrow, she'll be able to switch back from coffee to her beloved teas.


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## egrogan

Goodness, @bsms, your color "red" on the weather map doesn't even look like it computes on the map key. Glad the rain came though!


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## knightrider

My daughter and I love 1776!!! Thank you for sharing!


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## bsms

Came across this picture and liked it. A young Ronald Reagan riding before WW2:






One can like or dislike his politics. Won't go there. But he strikes me as a horseman, not just a rider. There is a book ("Riding with Reagan") written by a Secret Service agent who rode with him. Said the stallion he owned while President was a real hand full. Since RR was President, this guy's job was to ride the stallion the day prior to "get some of the fresh" off him - by the SS's direction, not RR's! He said the horse could gallop for hours. 

Another picture of him:


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## gottatrot

That is some impressive riding!!


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## bsms

I like Reagan's riding, but he learned in the Cavalry using the same basic approach Littauer taught - what used to be called the American Military seat. You can see his body is balanced over the stirrups. No crawling up on the neck or strong gripping with the knees. Gen Patton using the same style:






On the 4th, I took a nap in the evening. I had a done a good run that day but was tired. I woke to the fireworks going off near us. Started looking around and my wife, visiting youngest daughter and two dogs were with the horses out at the corral. I joined them. Jack, our Border Collie, has a particularly strong hatred/fear of fireworks. When I joined them, my wife told me that at one point, Bandit stuck his nose between the railings and "groomed" Jack, who was huddled in fear. That sounded like an utterly Bandit sort of thing to do. He doesn't actually LIKE dogs, but the two dogs have been there all his life here and he accepts them.

And Bandit views himself as The Great Protector. He did it again not long after I joined them, although he mostly moved around to keep himself between the two other horses and the nearest fireworks. But I liked it. Not sure if Jack understood, but maybe he did. Much more surprising was when Cowboy did it! Cowboy dislikes dogs, but Jack is a mellow Border Collie who is content to watch the horses from the nearest shade.

So we all hung out together until the fireworks stopped. Three species, but we all understood each other enough to take some comfort in being together in the darkness. For his part, Jack seemed slightly reassured having three very large friends there watching out for him!

A picture from the sunset on the 4th, a few hours before the gathering at the corral:


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## tinyliny

What a photo of the sunset! gorgeous.

RR's toe dropped so much with the stirrup iron so far up his foot gave me unease.


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## bsms

RR's toe doesn't bother me. Lots of jumpers have their heels come up at the apex of a jump. Pictures of show jumpers reveal a LOT of high level jumpers do worse:






That photo comes from an article with the title "Britain and Irela_nd miss out on Tokyo 2020 Olympic qualification in WEG jumping_" - and maybe that position says WHY they will miss out. Or maybe that show jumping, as Littauer wrote in the 1970s, had become as disconnected from good riding as dressage had become. Not sure who this is...seems to be from a World Cup event in 2011:






Maybe that is what is needed to be competitive in the world of jumping, but if it is, then is competitive jumping a source of bad riding? Have the jumps reached the point that hanging on as the horse hurdles himself across is what it takes? Because to my eye, RR looked much more fluid and in balance with his horse - more part of the team doing the jump as one instead of a tick trying to hang on. OTOH, Beezie Madden still seems to look like "one" with her horse...and it would be hard to find a photo of her anywhere that doesn't look like fluid balance at perfection:






Perhaps more important from my perspective is that I no longer view "heels down" as a particularly useful part of riding. It is an area where I've parted company with Littauer and the US Cavalry. I focus more now on feeling a part of my horse and trying to feel relaxed - even when working hard - and that relaxed feeling, even on level ground, doesn't seem to correlate with a specific heel position.

I think there is a difference between how average riders ought to ride (and ride well) and how competitive riders ride to win. Horse sports, pretty much all of them, emphasize the extremes and this 63 year old guy just isn't "extreme" - and I certainly don't do much jumping, if any. For me, it has become about feeling at one with my horse, like we're both working on the same thing together. And I find "position" can be the enemy of "feel".






That comes from a video years ago of a violent spook. When you get busy like that, your body takes over and you are totally focused on balance - and staying on without throwing the horse off balance. I think those are good things to work on all the time. I get the feeling instructors focus on position because it is something they can see, while good riding is more about feel. And it is hard to "see" feel. I'd argue both Beezie Madden and Ronald Reagan have/had great "feel" while Beezie always has great position as well! But I'd be thrilled to ride like RR. But..... *I've as much chance of riding Bandit on Mars as I do of riding like Beezie Madden!*


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## bsms

Went for a hike with my youngest a few days ago. We parked on the east side of the Santa Ritas and started following a dirt road. The dirt road soon petered out and since we didn't have maps we decided to just go on cross country. Easier to do when the country is very open! Later on, we looked at a map online and think we went roughly like this:






Looking back, we had parked at the arrow. The distant ridgeline is from the Whetstone Mountains:






This was looking toward the Rincon Mountains that are east of Tucson. My house is somewhere halfway between:






A barbed wire fence channeled us along a ridgeline when we came to this gate:






VERY elaborate for the back country. No idea where that trail starts. Given the expense of the gate, we wondered if it wasn't a section of the Arizona Trail. I've never seen a gate like that in the back country unless it involved tourists, but we had the entire countryside to ourselves. I confess to being tired by the time we got back to the car. Straight line on a map it doesn't look like much, but you don't go cross country in a straight line and the only time we took two level steps in a row was crossing a cattle guard. This was as high as we got:






She celebrated the turn around point with a real sugar Dr. Pepper. I had a Diet Coke...my battle with the bulge will go on until I die. 

We're getting a good monsoon finally. I'd guess (based on straight sided water buckets) that we've had 3 inches in the last 2 weeks, although I think our house has been above average. Would love for it to keep up for another couple of months!

_"And it's also important to understand just how bad last year's monsoon was. "I remember being really grumpy about 2019 and I had no idea it could get worse or would get worse than that," Crimmins said of 2019's 5.1 inches of monsoon rain. Tucson received 1.62 inches of rain during 2020's monsoon, according to Michael. The only time a monsoon has brought less rain than that was in 1924 with 1.59 inches....

An average monsoon brings about 6 inches of rain to Tucson, Crimmins says, with August generally being the wettest month. "To be honest, even if we have a near-normal monsoon, it’s going to seem impressive because we’ve had a down monsoon for the past two years," Michael says. "So if we get something close to normal, it’s going to feel very active." The last above-average monsoon in Tucson was in 2017, which recorded 8.6 inches of rain_."









Tucson's 2021 monsoon will likely be rainier than last year's truly terrible season


Even an average monsoon would look impressive next to 2020's 1.62 inches of rain. There are still many uncertainties surrounding what to expect from Arizona's 2021 monsoon season.




thisistucson.com


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## bsms

During the storm last evening. I'd guess the wind gusts were 50+ mph. Caught the edge of the shelter roofing and some screws were pulled out, happily BEFORE the rain hit. The roof started flapping so I went out with some screws and my drill and put a few deck screws in fast. Not long after, the rain hit. They aren't in the shelter because the wind was blowing the rain sideways and this resulted in the driest they could find:






They really don't seem to mind a warm rain, which this was. No food that night because the rain and lightning kept up for hours. I fed them this morning and they were surprisingly polite, waiting at their buckets (each one picked the one they wanted to eat at) while I carried flakes to them. Trooper was - well, we don't like each other, really - so he looked up. Cowboy ignored me taking the picture:






Bandit? He didn't give a rat's rear end if I wanted to take a picture. It was CHOW TIME!






They'll clean up the hay they have spilled. "Tossed", more accurately. It seems to taste better off the ground.


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## bsms

We're having a good monsoon so far:






Notice how green the ocotillo is. A month ago, it was just sticks. The young saguaro in the middle was looking dry. Now it is near bursting. The grass in the arena was put to good use today. I rode Bandit but let him eat a lot. Brought Trooper over later and let him eat and even got him, with much prancing, covered in fly spray! And here is Cowboy's turn:






Looks pathetic by Vermont standards, but this is living high on the hog for southern Arizona!

Recent yard work has included using a wheel barrow to move dirt and rock to build a barrier near the corral. For years, water from our house roof and backyard has flowed out of the gate and cut across where the horse shelters are. In addition, water from the road, our driveway and the SE corner of the property has flowed the same way. I built this to force the flow to the south side of the corral to reduce erosion where the horses spend most of their time. It wasn't finished when I took this picture (and still needs more work) but it is already effective:






I also used some retaining wall bricks (50 lbs each) to try to reduce the erosion heading to the arena:






Unfortunately, I only got 30 minutes of riding in on Bandit today. I ran a total of 8 miles in the last 2 days, plus working with Mr Wheel Barrow and Mr Pick. Near the end of the ride - well, CAUSING the end of the ride - we did a couple of tight turns at a canter and I could feel the asymmetrical forces starting to stab my back. Cantering in straight lines is fine, but the arena is very small and at best 70 feet wide. We don't stay on the extreme sides so Bandit's turns are more like 40' diameter across. I'm realizing I may be too old to do that without issues! My wife came out and took some pictures during the last 2 minutes of riding. Unhappily, by that time my back was tightening up. I was hoping to get some pictures but I realized I needed to dismount before I spend the next 30 days in pain again.

Getting old sucks, although I guess it beats the alternative to getting old....


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## bsms

Bandit trotting today:






At a canter:






Trying to steer him closer to my wife at a canter. My inside leg has to curl back and around him to hang on in the turns, which makes me asymmetrical:






First time in a while using a curb bit. Seems I can't figure out what to do with my free hand. Oh well. This one is odd. It is a screenshot as he is transitioning from a trot to canter. Looks to me like he has started to accelerate with a push off from his hind end - hence the mane flapping back - but hasn't started to lift with his front end...so he is still kind of at a trot in the front with the hind starting to canter. By the next stride he was fully into a canter. Played at normal speed I didn't see this. Or maybe he's accelerating in order to transition?


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## egrogan

bsms said:


> Looks pathetic by Vermont standards, but this is living high on the hog for southern Arizona!


Haha, that made me laugh. What’s incredible is how quickly your landscape is programmed to adjust to and take advantage of a sudden influx of water. That grass seems like it came out of nowhere!

I hate to say it, but we’re borderline too wet right now. First cut of hay is now 2-3 weeks late because we haven’t had three consecutive sunny days in weeks. Starting to get worried.

I volunteered at an endurance ride today and this is the “lawn” at the farm that hosted the first hold. The horses had gone about 21 miles when they arrived here and most didn’t want to leave the grass when their 50 minute break was up!


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## bsms

*@egrogan, you live in a stunningly beautiful place!* I love the desert but ONCE in a while I'd love to try....some GREEN! My wife and I are discussing trying to get away next summer for a few weeks to return to England and spend some time walking in the Yorkshire dales. We spent 3.5 years just north of Oxford. The Cotswolds are nice but Yorkshire would be more to our tastes.









PS: Something the video shows that the pictures really don't is how stiff I was holding my back. A fluid, swinging back isn't just good for horses. It is pretty important for good riding too - and mine was braced like an I-beam when my wife was taking pictures. I originally hurt my back in Jan 2009, shortly after I started riding. I'm beginning to understand how much my physical limitations - years of back pain while riding - shaped how I ride. It was and sometimes is an adaptation minimizing pain.

I'm popping Motrin right now but should be up to speed in a day or two. I think I'll limit my cantering on Bandit in the arena to maybe once or twice at the most. It is good practice for being on an excited horse and good for my confidence, but it has too much risk of reinjuring my lower back. Running 4 miles puts a symmetrical load on my back and I'm okay. Turns at a canter? Not so good.


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## gottatrot

I really like the trot to canter transition picture. Great moment.

Running a few miles and hauling rocks before cantering around on a horse...doesn't sound like old age is settling down _too_ hard.


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## Knave

I’m sorry your back is bothering you. My back can get pretty bad from old injuries, but running takes that way. Riding helps too. I feel bad for anyone that can’t find that release.


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## SueC

...I'd love to do this walk I saw on a TV documentary a few months ago:





__





A Coast to Coast Walk - Alfred Wainwright's classic walk across Northern England






www.coastto.co.uk





That takes in the Dales plus Lake District plus Moors and two coasts... 🤩

Really interesting links to the desert education museum - very cool clip too - thank you! I love their approach of using science plus art plus fun/good-crazy antics. Some of those kids are positively elven... ❤

Good luck with your back. I know I bang on about this, but Pilates fixes my back every time, and if I do enough of it, prevents issues altogether. No pink leotards required, males are allowed to do it too, and all you need is a yoga mat, instructions (lots on YT) and slow to medium music of your choice. It's incredibly good for your backbones to counterbend to the common daily-life bending which is more one-way - and it's amazing how much extra movement you get if you regularly move the backbones in bends, counterbends and sideways flexes and rotations...plus Pilates builds your core, taking pressure off the back. 😎

Just don't do too many "hundreds" too soon! 🥳 It will cause extreme acidosis of your abdominal muscles unless you build that exercise up slowly day by day...


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## bsms

@SueC, we had talked about trying the Coast-to-Coast, but it would take 3 weeks or more and we wouldn't have that much time. We MIGHT try doing some stages of it - maybe the east side first going west into the Yorkshire Dales, then return in a few years and try the west side, going east into the Lake district. We watched that program and I suspect Wainwright would understand someone with limited time doing a little bit and enjoying that phase rather than trying to "get it done"!








We aren't getting younger. And while we are a LONG way from wealthy, what money we have might as well be spent creating good times instead of "things". Finding someone who can take care of the horses for a couple of weeks might be a challenge. And the whole COVID lockdown/restricted travel thing could put a big crimp in hopes. As an alternative, we might look at extended walks/hikes in some of the southern Utah parks. Bryce Canyon has a very heavily used tourist section but could be a springboard to a lot of interesting country:






Panguitch is one of my favorite towns (1500 people). Tropic is getting a bit touristy, and no where in southern Utah do you get the green of Vermont, but not many head out into the countryside there...






But yeah, we'd prefer to visit England again. If possible. Oh...and I'll look up Pilates. I need SOMETHING!


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## bsms

@gottatrot mentioned a vet bill. A big one. The vet issue is one we're struggling with now. We're worried about Trooper. He's losing weight. Had mild colic a couple of times in the last 6 weeks after 12 years with no issues. Comes from a line of horses almost all of whom get cancer by 20. (He's 22-23, not sure). We talked last night about calling a vet.

5 years ago the vet charged $400 just to look at our driveway in daylight. The last few times the vet has been out, we didn't even get ADVICE on what to do. Just "See a specialist!" Dude, if you aren't a specialist, then why are you charging me $400 just to drive to my house - and more when you step out of the truck? 

I'd love a vet's advice but we have a feeling it will now cost $1000+ to be told, "See a specialist!" Assuming one will even come out. 2 of the 4 vets I know of for horses have retired in the last 3 years. And we're close to a city with a population of 1,000,000! We're going to try a change in feed. Maybe bring him out front once a day to get a special feeding of stuff for older horses. We've always fed dry horse pellets but we may start soaking them. His teeth were checked a year ago and barely needed work after a 5 year gap but there are no longer any equine dentists who make house calls. And used truck prices have increase as much as 70% in the last 4 months. New ones are sky high too! We're going to wait to see if prices drop. MAYBE go new because the new trucks are only about $10K higher than a used one with 100K miles.

Oh...and nutrition and vets don't seem to mix well. Many years ago I had a vet tell me Jack needed to be fed some special brand of food she sold because Kirtland brand dog food was just "cheap [expletive]!" Maybe, but Jack is nearing 13 now. He's slowing down. His eyesight isn't as good as it once was. Neither is mine. He's more inclined to go to a quiet room than before. Me too, actually. But he plays chase the ball with Sammy with enormous enthusiasm, spinning around and racing like a puppy. Just...not for as many throws. It is a bit like when the doctor who was at least 100 lbs told me my Keto diet was bad for me. His belly was sagging between his spread apart thighs and he was giving me advice on how to eat?

I could easily pay a vet $1000-$2000 for tests and then be told "See a specialist"....🤬


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## bsms

Some good news:






Trooper has been on his feet most of the day. He had some hay for Breakfast. Tried soaking the Lakin Lite pellets. Puts the pellets in the bucket, added enough water to reach the top of the pellets, then let it sit in the AZ sun for 30 minutes. That was enough to absorb all the water, making the pellets about twice their normal size. Then dumped the pellets into the feed buckets. Trooper insisted on taking #1 bucket and he didn't move until done!

Thunderstorms may be on their way so just did another meal same way. It plops into the feed bucket like a load of porridge, but they seem quite happy to eat it. I took a photo of Trooper getting first dibs, although Bandit is face down, chowing down behind him. If Trooper has teeth or swallowing issues, this may be a way to get nutrition into him. You can see his ribs showing and he looks better in the photo than in reality. I'd love to see him put on 50-100 lbs.

We'll never be friends, but I respect him for what he is. When my youngest rode him this month while on leave, it was the first time he'd been ridden in 6 months - and he acted like he'd been ridden every day of those 6 months. He's a good horse. Doesn't like me, but a good horse!


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## SueC

Well, @bsms, the vet situation you are relating sounds very discouraging...specialist indeed. I'd be very careful about throwing too much of my money away on someone like this - I want the money I spend to be of actual use to the animal, or I consider it wasted.

Making it easier for him to eat seems a good way to go - and I think it's a better use of your money than vague prognostications from a veterinarian. Think of the good nursing care you can provide to benefit your animal if you don't have a vet bill that turns out largely useless...

How many carrots, for example, can you buy for the hundreds of dollars your vet charges to come down the driveway? ...and actually, fresh stuff like this, full of beta-carotene etc, can be very helpful for an ailing horse that's lost condition. Also their Vitamin E often gets critically low if they're on dry feed for extended periods, and think how much Vit-E supplementation you can give him instead of having your vet look at your driveway...

If Trooper isn't suffering, you can throw your resources into good nursing instead. If he's got internal cancer, realistically you're not going to have surgery as an option and even if you won Lotto, in horses surgery is no small thing and in an older horse I'd prefer to do palliative care and then let them go when the quality of life stops being good. Does a diagnosis help any? Presumably he's de-wormed so it won't be that, and unless it's something you could realistically do something about, a diagnosis isn't necessarily helpful. Is there anything it could be, that's treatable if you know what it is?

Statistically, two things jump out at me - that cancer is pretty likely in older horses who have cancer in their ancestry as well and are dropping in condition, and that whatever the condition is, good nursing care and careful feeding won't do any harm, and actually will do a lot of good to improve the quality of life for the horse along this road.

My Arab mare dropped off in condition in her last summer, months before she developed abdominal symptoms, mini-colics etc. At the time we were in drought so I thought it was just that, because I wasn't feeding her extra to compensate, because she actually was a bit over for my taste before that summer - at first it was good to see her lose one condition score. But when it became more than that, I started supplementing her quickly; and when that didn't have its usual effect on her, and she didn't pick condition back up (though she also didn't lose much more), I started to wonder.

I had her teeth done again in case, but that wasn't it either; the mare was 32 and it was clear to me that she may well have a terminal illness. Which is how it turned out. I don't have any regrets how we managed her - good nursing to maintain condition as well as we could, and quick action when she became periodically uncomfortable and we realised it wasn't going to just go away. I think there is such a thing as too much medical intervention, both in old people and old (other) animals, and I like the model that favours good palliative care over artificial extension of life, which is mostly only for short periods, with expensive and often traumatic procedures. On the other had, a friend's dog with osteosarcoma had a good-quality life extension of nearly a year through the amputation of the affected limb in that case - and that was worth it to them, and the actual surgery a relief for the animal, because bone cancer is really painful and you can fairly instantly reduce the pain with amputation, in small animals where such a thing doesn't cause huge issues with getting around.

Good luck with Trooper. Maybe it's something more minor; and if not, he probably still has good months ahead and you can make them count. (He may even start to like you. Despite of his traumatic experiences with human males in the past!)


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## gottatrot

Sorry about Trooper. I agree with @SueC. Before any medical treatment for animal or human, I always try to think about what are they going to do, and is it going to change anything. It seems ridiculous to spend money for a vet that will only tell you they don't know anything. 

Our cat was losing weight, and I said "What if he has cancer?" Then we thought about what would we do if an old cat had cancer, and we'd just keep him comfortable, and if it seemed he was getting too thin or not having a good life, we'd put him to sleep. So what would be the point of going to the vet? 

Same cat, a year or so later, was losing hair. After trying to figure out what he might be allergic to, I thought he might also have a thyroid problem. So I brought him to the vet, since either of those things might be easily treatable. He's still thin, but the bloodwork didn't show any problems, and the allergy shot didn't really help much with the hair loss. The vet said some cats are just thin, and it's true that he's been thin since we got him, regardless of what food I give him. No signs of cancer, so going to the vet the first time I was worried would have been unnecessary stress for the cat and a waste of money.


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## bsms

I've been trying to figure out what is allowed here with disposing of a horse's body. Burial on property is no longer viable - requires a permit to ensure...well, whatever it is they need to ensure, but I'm pretty sure the county would look for ways to say no. Not likely to happen on a couple of acres!

One place in Tucson mentions rendering, but then they say they no longer render. So...what will they do? I know SOME of the local dumps are certified for it, but I doubt my trash service covers it and not seeing much else. Cremation actually sounds plausible to me. Costs cited are $750-1500, so not cheap. We COULD bury the ashes on our property. But the place that does it is in Phoenix. So the transport costs would probably be prohibitive.

I assume the other horses in Pima County eventually die. What happens to THEM? Do they evaporate? Don't know many local horse owners. I know one used to bury them on her property but that was before the law changed. Trooper seems to be doing better but I need to figure this thing out BEFORE a horse dies.


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## kewpalace

There are services which picks up animals (livestock) and takes them to the dump. My friend has such a business. Not sure how much she charges, but $300-400 seems about right. Might be more now that everything has gone up. I've buried my horses, but laws may also have changed here. I'll have to check them out. If so, I'll call one of the pick up services if I need to. Might be pricey, but just another ownership related cost, unfortunately.


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## gottatrot

There is a site on FB called Happy Trails Horse and Livestock Removal. It seems to be out of Tuscson. FYI, it was $600 to have my horse removed and buried. A lot of the cost was mileage, the burial site was 66 miles away.


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## bsms

Oh no! Arizona is the worst state in America to live in!

"_Natural beauty is abundant in the Grand Canyon State, but so is ozone, particularly in heavily populated Maricopa County — the home to Phoenix, and to some of the worst air quality in the nation, according to the American Lung Association. Arizona is stingy when it comes to public health funding, and it has a shortage of doctors and mental health providers. Even though there is no evidence of election fraud in Arizona — and not for lack of trying to find it — state lawmakers passed new restrictions on mail voting this year.

2021 Life, Health and Inclusion score: 91 out of 375 points (Top States Grade: F) / Strength: Arizona scored poorly in all metrics / Weaknesses*: *Air quality, public health funding, crime, inclusiveness_"









These 10 states are America's worst places to live in 2021


Health care and inclusiveness are rising as factors to be ranked a top U.S. state to live and work in.




www.cnbc.com





Please get the word out! *NO ONE COME HERE! TERRIBLE PLACE! STAY AWAY!* Of course, in spite of the worst air quality in America, I can usually see 50+ miles. But that merely makes it easy to see all the scorpions (most larger than Dobermans) and rattlesnakes (roughly the size of anacondas). We probably aren't as deadly as Australia, but yeah...stay away!

BTW: The second worst state to live in? Texas. Third? Tie between Nevada and Missouri. 5th? Tennessee. 6th is Georgia. But Arizona is the worst of the worst! We're Number One!


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## trailhorserider

I believe Arizona may be the worst state air-quality wise. Because when it's not burning from wildfires it's burning from controlled burns. I live up in the White Mountains and it was smokey all spring and early summer. I wheezed, I coughed, I had tons of snot. I took my inhalers all the time (I have asthma) and only now that it's monsoon season and it's actually raining can I breath and not take inhalers constantly. 

I swear, no matter where the fire is, all the smoke comes up here! The smoke from the big fires outside of Phoenix all came up here, then all the fires burning up here produced smoke as well. You will think the air is fine and leave your windows open overnight and then in the morning all the smoke has settled into the low spots and it's in your house and you are breathing it. At one point there were so many fires going I had no idea where the smoke was coming from anymore. It was anyone's guess because there were fires all over the place!


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## bsms

Smoke from fires is a temporary problem. Two years of severe drought during one of the driest decades in recorded history set up us for bad fires. But... 

I'm pretty sure the air in Phoenix is better than it used to be. Used to drive thru Phoenix to go from Tucson to Logan Utah all the time in the late 70s. Phoenix would get an inversion and the air would be like a brown fog there. It certainly has pollen issues, largely due to the large number of plants whose pollen is strange to people not raised in the desert. But...from a ridgeline near my house, I can look past Tucson (30 miles away) and see Picacho Peak (60 miles away). Cutting down the big mesquite next to my house has helped me. It pumped out incredible amounts of pollen in the spring. We cut 2/3 of it down before the pollen season started and I've had less breathing issues this year than I have in ages.

Happily, we're having a wet monsoon this year. We've had soaking rains - not flash thunderstorms, but soaking rain - almost daily here. I sprayed for weeds two days ago believing the weather forecast (dry). We DID get 12 hours of dry before a long rain, and that should be enough for the stuff to be absorbed by the plants. The saguaros in my yard may split from taking in so much water. That may help with the fire situation because we did have more fires near us this year than we've ever seen before.

The article cites ozone as their cause for concern. Heat is a major factor in producing ozone and Arizona has plenty of heat! A website says "_Though ozone pollution has declined since the Clean Air Act of 1970, several states have year-round “ozone seasons,” when levels must be closely monitored. These states include Florida, Nevada, Hawaii, Arizona, New Mexico, Utah, Colorado, and most of California, as well as southern Texas and Louisiana._" The Clean Air Act of 1970 was, IMHO, one of the greatest pieces of legislation passed. I remember the paper mills pumping out pollution in the southeast in the 60s. The incredible smog of LA & Phoenix in the mid-70s. But outside of the major cities, "_Nevada, Hawaii, Arizona, New Mexico, Utah, Colorado, and most of California_" have some great air!






















If that is bad air, I'll take it with a smile! And that is part of why I laughed at the article. *Lots of other people want to take it too!*

People are free to choose, and Arizona has been growing MUCH faster than I'd like - and has been my entire life! Arizona, Texas and Nevada are in the top 10 for growth, and supposedly in the bottom 10 for a place to live. The three worst states to live in are also in the top 10 for people moving here. I see a disconnect.

But...like I said, I'm HAPPY if people stay away! All those folks in California and New York who keep coming here and paying big bucks for homes? I'd be THRILLED if they would move back! I'd dearly love it if a million or more folks living in Arizona decided to move to California. If CNBC can convince people to stay away from Arizona? *That's fantastic!*


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## SueC

You're such a misanthrope, @bsms! 😜

Should introduce you to my husband really, he's a champion misanthrope. You could misanthrophise together.

And maybe I'd join in too. 🥳

Actually, I've always loved this programme:


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## bsms

Big storm last night. The weather advisories in the middle of the night estimated 2 inches of rain. Heaviest rainfall we've experienced here at our house since August 2005. That was shortly after we moved in and we were shocked at how much rain came...but 11PM until 2AM probably matched it. To put it in perspective, last year we got 1.5 inches of rain over the entire summer. The stuff I did the last couple of weeks helped. My berm wasn't washed away although it needs to be beefed up in a few spots. But the horses had a miserable night, as did our Border Collie. Jack hates it when the Sky Dogs growl at him...and bark! More rain is forecast for the next couple of days.

UPDATE: We have a nearly straight sided bucket I use as a rain gauge. The top opening is SLIGHTLY larger than the bottom...but it is close. It has 4.25 inches in it. Probably had over 3.5 inches of rain last night. Maybe closer to 4.


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## gottatrot

That is a lot of rain! When we were in Arizona several years ago it rained heavily, and we noticed how the soils and topography did not absorb rain well compared to OR, so the water became a problem very quickly. 

It rains wherever we travel, because we bring it with us. It rained when we were in Western Australia too. They said it hadn't rained in that area for a very long time. Everything where we live is based on lots of rain. The heavy vegetation and soils take in a lot, and the roads are all built on angles to drain water down to appropriate areas. Everything is built with the thought of heavy rain in mind, so roads are not in low areas. If they ever were put into a low area, they are soon rebuilt after they fail. 

When we were on the east coast, a hurricane was brewing, and we were amazed that highways and even freeways were closed after a small amount of rain. We were laughing because some of these roads were built just inches above a water way! As if the water would never rise. But my point is that I understand rain is a much bigger problem in drier areas where everything is not designed around it. Around here people laugh at us because we have so little snow that nothing is designed to deal with it. So if we have an inch of snow, everything shuts down and the roads are impassable.


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## bsms

My straight side bucket had 5 inches in it this morning. Started raining at 8 pm and it is still going. Supposed to end mid-afternoon, and by that time I think we'll have had 5-6 inches of rain in 36 hours. Our hay comes from California so no worries there. But we have a small leak in the roof. Went up in the rain to try to fix what I think is causing the problem. Here is how it looks:








The current horse shelter is behind the tree on the right. They are miserable in mud. The berm I put in is holding but I may need a roof repair guy to come out and work on my roof. Flat roofs are not designed to get this much water. We had some work done 6 months ago but the amount of rain we've had this last month is unlike anything we've seen in our 16 years here.

Not really complaining. We NEEDED the rain. But...we need a few DRY days somewhere. Neither our home nor our landscaping (nor our horse corral and shelters) are designed with 4 weeks of daily rain! And after a month of it, to get what would be a normal rainfall for an entire summer in 36 hours.... 

*UPDATE*: Rain quit 3 hours early. Probably topped out at 5 inches. MORE than enough for 36 hours in Arizona!


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## Knave

That is crazy! I’ve never seen that much rain.


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## bsms

FINALLY rode Bandit again! It has taken a long time for my back to mostly heal. Because of this....I've adjusted my riding. I used to ride a more Forward Seat style. That followed my getting hurt in Jan 2009 and the years it took for the back pain to stop. In the last couple of years, I've ridden with a longer leg (Papa Bear or even Grandpa Bear setting versus Momma Bear). The good news is that with a fluid back, one CAN ride well with the rider's flowing back moving in synch with the horse's flowing back. And a few years in long stirrups - at the Grandpa setting, I often have to point my toes to keep my stirrups - has largely eliminated my bracing against the stirrups when things seem dicey. I now feel better sitting deep and tucking my pelvis a little under me, slouching so I can be "behind" my horse a bit without creating tension.

But if I'm going to deal with long term pain or risk of re-injury to my lower back, then going back to a more Forward Seat approach makes sense. If my back CAN'T flow, then get up a little in the saddle, in the stirrups, and let my knees flex and my legs absorb shock. So that was what I tried today and I'm pretty happy with the results. On the right side of one of the pictures, you can see I fell behind a bit and that unfortunately put some pressure ON the bit...but Bandit isn't very fussy as long as it is brief.

Watching oneself in slow motion video is humbling but useful. I tried to stay in a half-seat...maybe a LOW half-seat, but a half-seat....including transitions from walk to canter and canter to full stop. Walk to Trot, trot to canter, etc. I remain convinced transitions are a great test of balance, although the camera shows mine were not flawless. But...they weren't as bad as I thought they might be. If I shorten the stirrups any more, the rear cantle will sometimes smack my rump. You can't FOLD much in a western saddle!

What made me happy was that A) I didn't brace, and B) I wobbled a little at times, but was getting better at staying stable in a half-seat doing a walk to canter transition. Bandit hurdles himself into a canter. Very understandable given how much weight he used to carry when cantering! If I can get stable in those, and in his typical twisting canter to full stop transitions, then I'll be fine. And he will too, if I can get a little more stable.

And yes, it WAS easier on my back.* Much easier.*

















Sorry about the bottom right, Amigo - but thanks for being patient with me. We did make a LOT of stops for grazing. You can see this is unheard of luxury for southern Arizona, and my spot treatment of weeds has resulted in mostly grass growing.

I'd like to see less rein use but it is hard when in the arena. We took a trip on the paved road. Walking, but he got nervous and started trotting a couple of times. I'd go to a half-seat and wait for him to relax with less rein than in the pictures above. After all, going down a road, he doesn't NEED any directional controls.

When we got back, my wife had brought Trooper and Cowboy out to graze. I let Bandit MOSTLY graze, dropping the reins and letting the Booma Rein keep the reins recoverable if needed - but Bandit didn't do anything. I'd ask him to canter a lap or two every 3-4 minutes. He thought that was a little unfair, but didn't protest much and the other horses were too busy eating to care. We stopped the grazing after 20 minutes because they are not used to green grass.

PS: My long sleeve jogging shirt also does well for riding on a hot & humid morning. I've also gone to relax fit Levi's. The waist fits like my old 501s but there is more room in the thigh - and that helps when mounting from the ground!


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## bsms

The Wife with Trooper and Cowboy. I was on Bandit, reins dropped on his neck while his head was buried in the grass. You can see Cowboy is actually a lot shorter than Trooper. We guess about 13.0 hands versus 14.2. My wife is 5'2" tall. A persons head is about 8" high. Trooper still needs to put weight on but he's looking better. Regular meals of soaked hay pellets seem to be helping.






All of the horses are leaner than I'd like. Getting weight on them isn't going fast but Cowboy is getting there and Bandit isn't far behind. Trooper is improving and acting much more comfortable and is also taking charge in the corral, so that is good. Bandit could beat him in a fight but Bandit is a pretty agreeable fellow. Not big into dominating others, which may be good given the times I got too much in his mouth today!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------






We had 15 tons of chat put in the corral last week. My wife did most of the spreading. I had projects inside the house and while I prefer working OUTSIDE, the Wife wanted me to get some progress done INSIDE. So..."_Yes Ma'am!_" We'll leave the remaining mound for now. The horses can choose to walk on the chat (much like a sandy wash) or be on harder ground. They choose the chat about 75% of the time. They like rolling in it and the remaining mound is a good place to roll.

You can also see sociable Bandit is choosing to hang out with The Wife. Bandit is just a friendly horse. He likes people! People are just more....interesting!


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## egrogan

That _grass_! I almost didn't know where you were for a minute.


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## bsms

This is starting to get ridiculous:














Yes, friends, I'm losing my sense of humour about it all. And our saguaros are starting to split. Forecast is for rain thru tomorrow night.


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## bsms

The panels on the west side of my little arena are just out of view at the top left hand corner of the picture. The footing of the arena is roughly level with the top of the picture. The panels were put there to prevent Mia, in a panic, from launching both of us off into this wash:







​*Non-horse*: When we came back from Benson, our oldest daughter left her new washing machine and dryer for us to use. But the clothes weren't getting very clean nor very dry. So today we put in our 8+ year old bottom-of-the-line washer and dryer back in. We had bought the cheapest we could find. And the first load? Clean, and DRY. Her new ones are sitting in the garage.

I suspect it may be like with toilets, where in the interest of efficiency the concept of "working" became irrelevant! Why do I need a low flush toilet? My toilet water goes into the septic system and back into the ground. No loss to anyone. Nor does flushing twice help anyone. And I put clothes in a dryer to DRY them, not to remove half of the water so I can hang them damp! Although we are going to install an old-fashioned clothes line - assuming it stops raining long enough! 

PS: I've read the new Chevy trucks have a feature that kills the engine when you are at a stop light, and then automatically starts the engine when you press the gas to go. That might game the system for gas mileage with the EPA, but isn't that going to be hard on the starter? What would it save in real world use - increase average mpg by 0.05? Thinking about buying an older truck with a big V-8 in spite of the increase in their prices - which may be due to a lot of truck buyers wondering what is the point with fake improvements in mpg in big trucks. If I wanted max efficiency, I'd get a smaller truck rated to just over the expected weight of my horses and trailer - and tough luck on how well it hauled. But that isn't the point of buying a truck!

< / oldguyrant >


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## boots

Non-horse related response.

Many new cars have the feature that cause the engine to turn off when idling in drive. They don't cut out if the car/truck is in park. Yes, that is hard on the starter. Yes, the energy savings are negligible. My Cherokee (2021) has an override button that I have to hit everytime I start the car. And I might say a bad word when I do!

Also, the stock battery that is put in many Cherokees isn't adequate to start the vehicles in even mildly cold weather. Too many gadgets, even if you turn off everything you can. I bought an upgrade the second week I owned mine. 

Your horses and the country both look good to me!


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## bsms

Looking EAST at SUNSET: The sun is reflecting off of clouds to the east and bouncing redness toward us. You can see a thunderstorm dropping rain somewhere to the east of us in the center left of the picture!






Times like this are when I like Arizona. But I hope my obese saguaros survive.
​


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## gottatrot

Oooo that picture is gorgeous. 

Agree about the "efficient" things that don't work. Our rental has toilets that save water by flushing three times....but the cheap design inside has them leaking around the seals ( which we've replaced and fiddled with to no avail), so they run and waste water anyway. 
The lights were so dim we had to plug in more lights to see, since they only can use low watt bulbs.


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## Knave

I’ve never been able to afford the fancy front load washer and driers, so I have old ones that clean well, and when one breaks someone is always getting rid of a very old set. Lol

My cars are old. Husband drives a nicer pickup though, and always has, but it’s still a 16 I think and is the bare minimum of fancy things. I kinda like the idea of a back up camera, and I hope someday to have one. So I don’t know much of anything about the new non effective efficient things.

I really like your horse corral!


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## bsms

I was looking for a photo on the Internet and came across this:

23 Guys Explain Why “Horse Girls” Are A Huge Red Flag

"_If you’re aware of the hot/crazy scale, you’ll understand this one. Horsey people are crazy, that’s a fact, *what sane person would get on a ton heavy animal that could easily kill you*. Obviously, you need to be hot to counter the crazy and make you dateable…_"

Not sure WHAT it might imply about old guys who ride!


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## Knave

Lol!!! I remember the hot/crazy scale. A boy in my girl’s school chased this particularly attractive girl, and all the adults teased him about wanting the unicorn. Now my youngest always says she’s a unicorn. Whenever she has decided to pursue a boy she teases them that she is in fact a unicorn. We tease her that she is definitely no unicorn, because the crazy is high on the scale with her.


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## bsms

I knew a guy once whose wife had 7 horses. She was a nurse who didn't work so she could spend her time with the 7 horses. He wanted to retire but she objected because it took his good working income to KEEP those 7 horses - that she didn't want to work herself to pay the bills for. And no, no way was she hot enough to justify putting up with that! Don't know what became of them. We moved away...


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## knightrider

Wow. @bsms , I sure hope I'm not like that. That is kinda scary. I have a lot of horsey friends and they are down to earth, generous, thoughtful, and kind. I guess I've gotten lucky.


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## bsms

Hopefully the vast majority of riders - of either sex - are not like that! But we all have to accept SOME element of risk - although I think with GOOD horses the risks are minimal! I'm reminded of Slim Pickens talking about riding his TV horse John over jumps. Said he'd let John look at the jump. If John said no, Slim would tell the producers no. If John said he could do it, then Slim would agree to ride him over....






An uncertain or confused or inexperienced horse, if listened to and encouraged, is one thing. The ones who have been trained to believe they have no choice? THOSE would be scary!

And the people who would ride that way? I'd want NOTHING to do with them.


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## TrainedByMares

How do the horses fare on sandy 'chat'? Do you feed them anything to prevent sand colic?


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## gottatrot

"*I’ve just had bad experiences with horse girls. Not fair to judge everyone, but I have to this day not met someone that treats me as good as they treat their horse." *

In the defense of horse people, being treated _slightly _less well than a very spoiled horse is not that bad!!
This is a joke in our house...the animals are eating expensive, top of the line food and then we end up cooking up cheap hamburgers. They take more vitamins than we do, they see the dentist and doctor more often...etc.

DH has always said horse people are crazy. Then I say, "What about me, am I an exception?" No reply. 
But there could be rankings of weirdness in the animal world. Ever been to a dog show? How about a cat show? Met someone who loves pet snakes? LOL.


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## weeedlady

I am certainly not hot (not anymore anyway, lol) and I'm only a tiny bit crazy. All the men I have ever been involved with have been both.


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## bsms

TrainedByMares said:


> How do the horses fare on sandy 'chat'? Do you feed them anything to prevent sand colic?


We originally put the chat under their shelter as well as over about half the corral. That was a mistake. We weren't prepared to how effective the chat was at preventing water flow. Or urine. They stand a lot under the shelter and pee and...it had no where to go. Turned the ground black under the chat.

We removed the chat from under the shelter. We also moved the water bucket about 50-60 feet away. Moving the water bucket has significantly reduced the amount of pee and poop under their shelter. Now they pee and poop while walking to their water bucket, which spreads it out more.

Overall....the corral gets less muddy, although we've had less rain (thankfully) this last 10 days anyways! Their feet are cleaner. Walking on the chat is like walking in one of our sandy washes. Cleans the bottoms of their feet. They can go either where it is thick or where it doesn't exist and...we see no pattern. Although they REALLY like the thick chat to roll in!

They've eaten hay off the dirt for years. Never had an issue with sand colic, maybe because they mostly eat Bermuda hay and it is long and stemmy. That sort of hay clears their gut out better than psyllium. It is also easy to pick up, apparently, off the ground. The same remains true of the chat. We've switched to feeding them twice a day meals of pelleted hay (a more balanced nutrition) and one of hay versus two of hay and one of pellets. Trooper is finally putting on weight and Bandit & Cowboy are finally about right in weight. We'll stay on the watch but I don't see signs the chat will result in sand colic. I might try moving their feed buckets, though, to the part of the corral without chat. If I had to do it over, I'd keep the chat in about 1/3 of the corral. I think we've overdone it. But thick chat in 1/3 of the corral would be a major plus, I think.


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## Txshecat0423

weeedlady said:


> I am certainly not hot (not anymore anyway, lol) and I'm only a tiny bit crazy. All the men I have ever been involved with have been both.


I’m not now, nor have I ever been, “hot”, but I am a LOT crazy. One of my ex-husbands once complained to me that every one of his wives was crazy. I said “We don’t start out that way…what’s the common denominator here?”

There’s a saying here, “We don’t hide our crazy in the South…we parade it right out to the front porch and give it some sweet tea!” LOL…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bsms

"_The desert tortoise *lives about 50 to 80 years*; it grows slowly and generally has a low reproductive rate. It spends most of its time in burrows, rock shelters, and pallets to regulate body temperature and reduce water loss. It is most active after seasonal rains and is inactive during most of the year. This inactivity helps reduce water loss during hot periods, whereas winter brumation facilitates survival during freezing temperatures and low food availability. Desert tortoises can tolerate water, salt, and energy imbalances on a daily basis, which increases their lifespans....

*At least 95% of their lives are spent in burrows*. There, they are also protected from freezing winter weather while dormant, from November through February or March. Within their burrows, these tortoises create a subterranean environment that can be beneficial to other reptiles, mammals, birds, and invertebrates.....Although desert tortoises spend the majority of their time in shelter, movements of up to 200 m (660 ft) per day are common. The common, comparatively short-distance movements presumably represent foraging activity, traveling between burrows, and possibly mate-seeking or other social behaviors. Long-distance movements could potentially represent dispersal into new areas and/or use of peripheral portions of the home range._"

Desert tortoise - Wikipedia







 This fellow (unknown sex, let alone gender) was crossing our driveway this morning. Some reading revealed it has protected status - illegal to take a wild one and keep it in captivity. But crossing open areas in bright daylight is high risk too, with the hawks and coyotes we have around here. In fact, while tossing the ball for the dogs yesterday, a coyote came trotting across our yard, detouring just slightly to avoid our dogs - who were more interested in ball-chasing than stray a coyote. 

Per the weather forecast, things turned to this a few hours later:






The area he was heading to is covered in boulders and has a variety of wild animal dens. That section of our property sounds like it would be possible habitat. Or maybe he detoured to our neighbor's, where the property would be even better for him. I looked for him in the rain and didn't see him anywhere.

I'd never seen a tortoise in the wild. They have high mortality rates when young so I hope he (she) makes it. It is hard to obey the law when one has a hard time keeping track of the laws! They are not endangered in Arizona although they will never be common here.

BTW, the saguaros have splits in their sides from too much water. The splits should scar over unless they become infected. I'd like to move the two smaller ones but laws passed a few years back would require me to get a permit to move them from one part of my property to another part! I'm now supposed to report them if they die, although the website was a bit vague about who I would report it to. Hopefully the splits will heal.

We've had 2 inches of rain - an inch last night and another inch this afternoon. Supposed to rain more tonight and tomorrow.


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## egrogan

Very neat sighting of the tortoise! And how wild you've had enough water to split the saguaros. The weather is just out of control this year.


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## Knave

I forgot to ask you a question my husband had. He heard a story that you could cut the tops of the saguaros off and did a cup of water out. Is that reality?


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## bsms

Not really. Saguaros are now a protected species and it would be illegal to do so other than a life or death situation. What they taught us in survival school was that the liquid from cacti is pretty hard on the stomach. They recommended digging a small pit, lining it with wet cactus innards, then covering with a parachute with a rock in the middle and something to catch the water running off of the parachute. In reality, I wouldn't recommend trying to dig a pit, but it might work along the edge of a wash or a gully somewhere. Internet photo is as close to what they showed in the survival classes:






"_Turns out, a cactus is not actually a spine-covered basin of fresh water. Such a plant would not last long in an arid habitat filled with thirsty animals. Water is truly a precious resource in a desert, so, in addition to their intimidating spines, *most cactus species further protect their spongy flesh with acids and potent alkaloids. These chemicals are usually too acrid for most humans to tolerate* and are taxing on the kidneys if ingested. *The flesh of some cactus species can also cause vomiting, diarrhea, or temporary paralysis*—none of which is conducive to your survival in an emergency situation. The notable exceptions to this rule are the prickly pear and one species of barrel cactus, the fishhook barrel (Ferocactus wislizeni). While both of these plants are fairly unpleasant to eat raw, they have less-concentrated levels of the detrimental chemicals and could give you a bit of hydration in a pinch._"








Can You Drink Water from a Cactus?


You’re lost and thirsty in a desert. Is that cactus a bastion of potable water, or will you regret your efforts to get past its perilous spines?



www.britannica.com





I was always skeptical of the solar still thing too. It would be a lot of work to cut up all that cactus and find a depression in the ground (or dig one!) and I'd bet I'd sweat out more doing the work than I would gain from the solar still.


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## Knave

That was my gut about it. I didn’t think it would be so easy, and that it wouldn’t be “water.” I am glad for the information though! I agree that digging and creating the pit would be too much work in a life threatening situation, and who has the plastic with them?


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## bsms

Started using my slick leather saddle, without the sheepskin. Did a couple of rides on Bandit out solo into the desert. Something we've done almost not at all due to all the rain and mud. He did fine. I had shortened my stirrups but the slick seat saddle rides differently than the Abetta. Today I put the sheepskin back on it and rode Trooper. His ribs are less visible but his back is still quite weak. He's only been ridden twice in the last 15+ months so he is definitely out of riding shape. With the roping saddle, that was 200 lbs on his back. Since he needs to be built back up, we did 30 minutes with about half of it being grazing. Also walking and a few short (50-75 feet) trots. Don't think he is really up for trotting yet. Took him out on paved road a few times, briefly.

I hope to start riding him every other day, and hope to work him up to riding out solo into the desert. At a minimum, I need to put on the headphones & listen to tunes while he spends 30-45 minutes walking for exercise. I hadn't been on his back for 5+ years so it felt kind of weird to me. Maybe to him too, but he's a horse where you "ride the training" instead of "ride the relationship".


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## Knave

I’m glad you rode him. I love stepping back onto an old horse. I don’t ride Bones much anymore. I debated taking him today and am glad I decided against it because he’d have gotten far too hot for the corral. When I step on him it feels like reconnecting with an old friend. I remember getting back on General after riding Partner for a year, and just feeling shocked and at home. He also was not a relationship type of horse, but I was so impressed with what he was after a break.


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## bsms

Got a good ride in on Bandit today. Added sheepskin to the Abetta. Hadn't done that is a long time. The cushion felt good but it made things HOT - finished the ride with my jeans soaked with sweat. However...

Went out solo, either the third or fourth time since returning from Benson. The Butt Velcro had the already secure-feeling Abetta feel more like I was an extension of Bandit's back than anything else, even in a half-seat. We went as far as we went the last time. Then turned AWAY from home and continued on. Spent some time along the paved road, sometimes on and sometimes just off. He found that a little stressful so we cut back into the desert and on to a familiar trail. Cantered in the spot in the wash where we always canter. Then climbed out. There is a spot nearby where the trail makes a climbing turn from west to south. He wanted to canter, so I said, "_Cool!_" I then took a fork to the paved road and we rode on or beside it (his choice). Again, we have rarely done that and I think he felt a little stress. He decided to trot so I decided to practice two-point. We were almost at our maximum ever solo trip point when he gave up trotting, so I cut him across the desert until we came to a very rocky path we almost never use due to the rocks. I had put Bandit's Super Feet on today - first time in a year. And he decided to canter. That really surprised me but...as long as he didn't hurt himself, and he was cantering because HE wanted to, so...

When the trail smoothed out, he slowed. Go figure! We continued gradually making our way home and he trotted a 1/4 mile section covered in gullies. Not where I would choose to trot, but if he wanted....

Almost at the end there is a place where it climbs steeply for 50 yards. He decided to canter so I said, "_Oh golly. This is fun!_" When we got to the top, he quit. Shortly after we were back to pavement and I got down and walked him the final 1/4 mile home. We were out for almost an hour and I probably spent 3/4 of it in a half-seat, including walking - good practice for me and Okay by Bandit. But all that time not sitting tired my knees and it felt GOOD to be on solid ground again and just walking beside Bandit.

Walking' home...the end of a long - well, maybe in terms of emotional stress - day:






The purple halter is new. I like it. But I think you can tell from Bandit's expression that he felt he had done enough for one day!

BTW - People always tell someone who isn't feeling confident that their horse will feel more confident if they ACT more confident. I think horses can see thru the act. I think one needs to genuinely FEEL more confident. The shape of the Abetta is a good match for my body and the Butt Velcro really made it feel like I was going anywhere Bandit went. That is good provided he doesn't fall and he never felt unstable so it was easy to BE confident.

I also think he NEEDED to trot or canter in those spots for his own emotional health. All those transitions we've been doing in our postage-stamp arena have been good for us. Makes it easier to say, "_Oh...well, if that is what *you* want, then by all means!_" I think if I had tried to hold him back it would have made him freak out. And for my part, I *VASTLY* prefer a horse responding to stress with a trot or canter instead of turning into a spinning mess! Bandit isn't a bolter like Mia was for years. He never loses his head. Period. So if he releases stress via canters, so be it. I'll gladly canter down a hundred trails in return for not doing any dropped shoulder spins!


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## TrainedByMares

It is possible that the rider acting confidently improves rider confidence especially when things go well.


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## bsms

If, instead of turning for home, we had turned west, we'd have been here. I go jogging here regularly. Traffic goes 65 mph but there isn't a lot of it and the shoulders are wide enough to get well away from the road if a semi was going along. I'm wondering if I could get Bandit used to trotting along the road out here:
















Forgive the bug on the windshield effect, but if I can jog here why couldn't he work up to it? I generally jog 3.5-4 miles. I could add a little for Bandit once we worked up to it and then be doing 5 mile loops. Even a brisk walk would be good exercise along here, wouldn't it?

Where we turned off the road and started wandering toward home today:








Tucson has had its third wettest monsoon season since measurements started in 1895 and there's a chance we'll get to #2. Roughly 12 inches of rain in the last 2 months. Problem? When it dries, all this green stuff will make good fire fuel. 😕 Bandit enjoys the option of eating but this much green is VERY rare. Last year the monsoon provided less than 2" which was uncommonly dry.

Monsoon 2021 producing record rainfall and keeping us cool



TrainedByMares said:


> It is possible that the rider acting confidently improves rider confidence especially when things go well.


It could be I'm too engineering oriented, but .... I earned to ride on Mia. She was a very spooky Arabian mare who eventually improved but whose startle reaction remained a violent spin. Usually a full circle. Sometimes two full circles. Although after a few years of effort she finally stopped bolting madly after spinning. And I'm not talking "_sprint 50 yards and reassess_" pseudo-bolts. I'm talking the real, "_By George our only hope of living is for me to run, run, RUN!_" bolts! She could also read me like a college graduate reading "See Spot run!".

People would tell me to sing to feel more confident. It just taught her singing meant I was scared so she ought to be as well! I didn't discover sheepskin Butt Velcro until after I had traded Mia for Bandit. The Aussie-style saddle helped keep me alive until I got better at sticking on, but very, VERY few recreational riders would feel "confident" on Mia! Her intentions were utterly honorable. She really believed she was saving US! But...a tough horse to learn to ride on. An Absolute Sweetheart...but very hard on my nerves. It has taken 6+ years on Bandit to start making me more normal.


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## TrainedByMares

Mia would have driven the confidence out of me as well!


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## bsms

Today's ride on Bandit was similar to the previous one. But in the previous one, we left the paved road because he was feeling uncomfortable, cut across the corner of the square-laid-out paved roads, then re-entered the road after cutting the corner. Today, we managed to stay along the road. Including along a section where dogs were barking and some trucks racing past us. He got a little tense but kept heading forward. We reach the point we hit previously and went another 50-75 yards. Not as much as I would have liked but some trucks had parked on the side of the road there and were working on one. That added stress so we did a looping 270 degree turn to get us around and back onto a side trail about 50 yards east of the paved road. As before, Bandit decided he wanted to canter...only this time kept up the pace for about 1/3 of a mile! He dropped to a high-stepping trot at one rocky spot but 20 yards later resumed a vigorous canter.

Later, we picked up another canter for perhaps 1/4 of a mile. That section of trail used to be too rough (IMHO) but the recent rains seem to have smoothed the trail. And Bandit had the option - I'm certain he knew - to slow if he felt it was an issue. Apparently he was fine with it.

The important differences between him and Mia? Worry does NOT make him boil over. He NEVER dumps his mind. And Bandit can go from 210 degrees to "out of the tap" in about 30 seconds instead of 30 minutes! It has taken a LONG time, but I'm finally feeling like my horse and I are in unison, and that I have a horse who I can TRUST....and who trusts me. *Feeling him stretch out along the trail, and knowing he would not lose his mind with excitement, was wonderful! *And it has only taken me 12 years and 2 horses to reach this point.... 😕

Total distance was about 3.5 miles. From 1100-1145 AM. 90+ degrees. I think we won't need long to bump that up to a 5 mile loop. But both of us were sweating by the end.


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## bsms

Failed to ride Bandit this morning. Did a 3 mile run at noon, but then rode Trooper this evening. Until the other day, I don't think I had ridden Trooper since before I had Bandit, so maybe 2014? Started riding him on the pavement heading to the desert, then turning around before he showed much resistance and came back to let him graze with me on his back. Then trot or canter a lap, graze, then go a bit further out on the pavement. Think it might not take more than another 3 rides to get him going out solo into the desert. Where Bandit goes, "I'm not sure I agree", Trooper will say, "If you say so" - a VERY different feel. Add in his neck is usually level with his withers and it makes riding feel....WEIRD. But not "bad". Just different.

Afterward, my wife came out and I hauled the tack back in while she let Trooper graze. If I start riding Trooper regularly she might consider starting to ride again. Trooper felt better although he still needs muscle. But this was them after my ride, at end of day - nothing wrong with these moments:


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## bsms

Rode Bandit today. Nearly noon. 95 degrees. We did OK heading out to the desert. I encouraged him to trot on a good part of the ATV road, which he did. Walked across a rocky spot, then trotted again. Got a quick ear shot in - the recent rains, oddly enough, have IMPROVED this section. He was just off the road when I took the picture:






As I started to put my camera into my shirt pocket, Bandit switched to a canter. The good news? It felt good enough that I concentrated on trying to get the camera into my shirt pocket, which was blowing in the canter-breeze since only my bottom shirt buttons were buttoned. (BTW- had a long sleeve UV shirt underneath) As we ran out of road, I pointed Bandit to a spot of grass and slowed him. 

As we got there, though, there was prickly pear growing in the grass. So I pulled his nose out...and he turned to home and started cantering back! Nope. THAT was not the right answer. Got him stopped in a couple of strides, Turned him...and he decided to canter again. Wrong Answer. So he spun 180 and tried for home again. We spent the next little bit arguing abut who was going to decide where and how fast we were going to go somewhere. It felt like 10 minutes so it was probably 60 seconds tops of "Spin. Leap. Stop. Repeat." I was busy using both hands on the reins and saying rude things about Bandit's mother. And father.

Got that settled and continued on. It took Bandit about 2 minutes to settle down. Mia would have taken 30. We cantered to the stop sign on a trail beside the road. Turned south. It was the place where we had dogs and trucks the other day. Just trucks today. Bandit wanted to trot so we did for the next 1/4 mile uphill. I jog that way regularly so I knew he could.

After a half-mile, we reached the busier road I want Bandit to learn to ride along. We cut through desert, twisting and turning, letting him hear the traffic while staying 50 yards north of the road. After a few minutes, we turned around, and wandered back, about 10 yards from the busy road. He was doing good. Later, we crossed a paved road and tried to find the trail. Got caught in a spot that was VERY narrow between cactus and Bandit threaded the gap. But he hopped at the end, so I guessed a spine caught him. Didn't see anything from the saddle and he was OK with things so we went on, working our way home. We got in a fast canter near the end - a "Bakery Truck Canter" because he was "hauling buns" down the road! But it finished with a steep uphill and a rocky spot at the top. Bandit raced to the top and slowed a moment after I asked him to, saving his feet.

An hour of riding, about half of which was at a walk. I was using a true Billy Allen Snaffle, the one on the left:






A good grazing bit but not much help when a horse gets fussy. Bandit's weight is back to where it was before we moved to Benson and I'm happy about that. And yes, I used a bucket of water and a brush to reduce the sweat on him before he went back into the corral. His brand is pretty obvious:






While he was grazing, I found a solitary spine halfway up his right hind leg and pulled it out. It wasn't deep and hadn't bothered him much.


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## Knave

Ugh, that sounds like a rough couple minutes.


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## bsms

Last three rides on Bandit - 12th, 13th & today (15th):

Sunday, didn't feel like riding out anywhere. Stayed in the arena. Removed the sheepskin. Still debating. The sheepskin feels good on an unpredictable day. But it interferes with a free-flowing Bandit beneath me on a predictable day. Sunday's ride was an unpredictable day, although in the arena. The canters were fast canters - maybe still wound up from previous runs on the trails? The good news was he did 3 right hand turn canters in the correct lead, which is rare for him. He prefers a left lead. The not so good? To handle the speed, he had to lean into turns. Not "barrel-racing" levels of lean, but more than he had even done before and I kept thinking, "_One wrong step by him and this is REALLY going to hurt!_" My arena has rock hard ground, rocks and very patchy grass, with the grass varying from 6" to 24" long. So if he slipped or hit a rock....

But he didn't. 30 minutes though had me tired. Maybe Bandit too, because he was sweating pretty hard for just a 30 minute ride! Put him back in the corral...and TROOPER walked to the gate and hung out, looking at me like, "MY turn". Unheard of...so I saddled him and headed out. We got to the turn into the desert at Trooper's slow stroll. Rather than head out, I kept him going and we strolled around the block. 0.75 miles of SLOW stroll. In Trooper's defense, when herding sheep, you STROLL. If there is a need for something else, then a FAST trot or canter is called for. And that is Trooper. Walks at a snail's pace but he has a fast trot & canter. An old picture of Trooper's stroll:






A couple hundred yards before we got home, he heard Bandit calling and we then did a fast trot the rest of the way. He then ate grass in the arena for 10 minutes.

Monday, decided to ride Trooper around the block. It was evening, and I almost never ride in the evening. He's still underweight but he moved slightly faster than the previous day. When we got to the road out into the desert, we took it - but only for about 300 yards. Then headed back, and continued around the block. Got back, let Trooper graze...and Bandit was throwing a fit. The Wife said he'd been throwing a fit since we left. "_UNHEARD OF! UNTHINKABLE! Bob rides Bandit. Period._" So I saddled Bandit, and rode him after sundown. Also almost unheard of! Decided to ride HIM around the block. I can't remember if we'd ever done that before, solo. Bandit did the 0.75 a lot faster than Trooper. Head high and looking around, unlike Trooper's head hanging below the withers. Blowing and snorting. Got a fast graze in but it was getting dark fast.

Tuesday, didn't ride. I had also run on Sunday & Monday, and running and riding 2 horses on each of the previous two days...my legs felt like wood stumps! Back was tired too! So Tuesday...no riding. No running. Just an Aspirin Day.

Today, rode Bandit out. Same basic route as the last few desert rides. He was more tense this time. No big fussing but we cantered a 1/4 mile along the paved N-S running road. I didn't mind that while we were BESIDE the pavement but didn't much appreciate it ON the pavement. So he then did a fast trot on the pavement, which at least felt less likely to slip. On the way back, we did a canter that turned into an alternating fast trot/canter, back and forth, with Bandit switching between them based on...what? Not sure. Another spot, shortly later, he gave a canter than turned into a fast trot which was due to footing issues, I think. As we got near the end of today's ride, there is a place we've been cantering and I kept telling him no. So I gave some big sighs, and he seemed to release a bit of tension with my sighs. We strolled home on the pavement. Just under an hour but he worked up a sweat.

Hope to ride Trooper around the block this evening.

In some ways I think the speed work is good for Bandit, but in some ways it raises his tension. I'm thinking I might work harder for a bit on just walking him around on pavement in the neighborhood. Walking barefoot on rough asphalt is a good way for a horse's hoof to self-trim and if Bandit got good at it, we could access some other riding areas by doing another 3/4 - 1 mile on paved roads to get to some unpaved ones. I'm guessing trying to trot/canter along the busier road may be too much to ask of him. I want him to enjoy being ridden. I need for the speed work to become just something we do to get from A to B in less time, not something that gets him ramped up.

PS: When I ride Trooper, I rarely see his head. With Bandit, I almost need to look around his head to see in front of us. It is SOOOO weird to ride a headless horse!


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## bsms

Got a ride in on Trooper this evening. Tried shortening the stirrups a hole but that wasn't the right answer. He's built different from Bandit and the same stirrup length feels different - but ultimately the one I use with Bandit is still the one that feels best on Trooper. I spent part of the ride thinking about Bandit's '_canter/trot/multiple back and forth_' thing from earlier today. My legs were exhausted from riding that in two point, although I have no idea how anyone would ride that fast, choppy trot sitting. It felt a lot like Cowboy's "_Make You Pee Blood_" trot. So I think the answer will be to INSIST Bandit either shift gears to canter or SLOW down enough to give a reasonable trot. I'm big on giving the horse some freedom, but HIS freedom shouldn't make ME sore for hours!

And it says a lot about Trooper that I can ride him and be thinking about Bandit. However, at the far end of the block, turning to home, Trooper let out a blast to the other horses and wanted to trot. So we trotted, me standing in the stirrups, the rest of the way home. A nice quarter mile at a jog, easy to ride and it would have been easy to sit, but Trooper's back needs more muscle so I stayed off it. Then let him eat grass for 10 minutes, then untacked and put him back. Barely light enough to see to move the tack back in but it might make a nice habit pattern. Old horses, a bit like old guys, can find comfort in having certain habits in life.

Bandit wasn't happy about me going out on Trooper but he needs to learn to deal with it! Today's ride left me feeling I need to be more directive with Bandit. Not dominating, but more inclined to say "_Nope. Wrong answer. Choose again._"


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## Knave

Cash would agree with Bandit, as would Queen. I have a tendency to create very high levels of jealousy in horses.

Today I caught Queen to trim her feet, and Cash lost his marbles. He jumped beside me threatening to kick, with his neck curled and ears pinned, and then he bucked around me, while I hollered and kept him somewhat off of us swinging my rope to hit him. When I got her out and he rushed the gate I got it chained, and then he bucked and ran into fences, debated jumping the gate and instead slammed into it a couple times.

That giant is intimidating when he wants to be, and over half the time I was trimming he continued his tantrum, and then laid into Zeus. Later I tried to catch Bones, but husband told me not to because we have to work tomorrow, and I’m already sick and was through two horses feet already. Queen came at Bones, ran him off and tried to stick her head in the halter, while Cash came running up mad and I just sold out of the corral.


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## knightrider

I clicked "Wow" because . . . just WOW. When I take one out to trim feet, the others stand there looking, glad it's not them. Whew. And I am lucky if I can do 4 feet, much less 8 feet. And I don't trim when I'm sick. For you, WOW!


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## Knave

@knightrider thank you!! Yes though, the jealousy is actually a problem. To catch Bones I will have to catch Cash and Queen, in order of who gets to the gate first, tie them both up, catch Bones, keep Zeus off him… it’s a big hassle. I am glad they want to go, but angry jealousy is not the solution.


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## bsms

Bandit WILL calm down. This is out of his habit pattern. The rhythm and flow of his life has been altered. "_There is a disturbance in the force!_" But he'll get over it. He's fundamentally sane and he adjusts. Or...he'll get good exercise running around. But he's so fundamentally sane that I bet he adjusts fairly fast. 

And even though it has only been a few rides, I'd swear Trooper's back is looking better. The "2 pellets 1 hay" a day meal plan (versus 2 hay 1 pellets) has all the horses gaining weight. Trooper slower than the others, although he insists on first dibs on meals and the other two go along. I think he really needed exercise. It is part of why I get fed up with the "You're too heavy" argument for many horses. NOT ALL - there are obviously some people way too heavy for some horses...but horses need exercise just like humans do. All we're doing right now is strolling a mile in the evenings - unless HE offers more. No way could he handle me for a 3 hour trail ride, or jumping, or any kind of "horse sport"...but a stroll around the block with some weight on his back is a good first step.

But the insanity of people telling someone who weighs 140 lbs that they are too heavy for a grown horse? That 15 or 20 percent is a RULE, even though that rule doesn't allow for conditioning? Nuts!


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## bsms

Historical curiosity, I guess. Not sure when I took this picture of an F-111F flying in formation with us. Has the "Hounds of Heaven" insignia on it:


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## bsms

bsms said:


> In some ways I think the speed work is good for Bandit, but in some ways it raises his tension....I'm guessing trying to trot/canter along the busier road may be too much to ask of him. I want him to enjoy being ridden. I need for the speed work to become just something we do to get from A to B in less time, not something that gets him ramped up.


Worked on this today. I avoided the actual paved road. When I asked him to pick up the pace outbound, he offered a good trot once and a good canter the second time. We worked the washes and trails and he offered a nice canter in Canter Heaven (a wash), then a fast but decent trot up a rockier uphill trail. After trying different stirrup lengths and with/without sheepskin, for today I tried a shorter stirrup (to get more off his back and let my legs absorb more motion) combined with the butt velcro for greater security when putzing along. I think this combo worked well. In both a canter and trot, I could get far enough off his back to call it a plausible half-seat. Or at least a genuine 3/4 seat.

I decided to let him graze in some deep grass growing just short of the previous turn back point, and about 100 feet off of the paved road he had cantered/trotted up the previous ride. There is a thick line of brush in that 100 feet, blocking out the view. This was taken at the end of ride, but it is very close to how things looked when Bandit spooked:






No reins. Bandit squirted suddenly sideways, then took a few strides heading south. By the time I had gathered up the reins, he had already paused to reassess the situation - as a good desert trail horse will!

That is one of the main reasons Mia was never going to be a good Sonoran Desert trail horse. Once she got excited, she stayed excited and it would take a long time to spin her down. Her water would be at 200+ degrees for quite a while. Bandit? By the times I had the reins well in hand, he had himself well in hand. I got a glimpse thru the trees. He had been spooked by a truck hauling a boat in a trailer. I hadn't seen nor heard it but Bandit heard and responded.

But between the Abetta saddle and the Butt Velcro, there was no question of feeling concerned. He could squirt sideways and then put in a few strides and although all I was doing was sitting....I wasn't going anywhere.

So I made a point of pointing him in the direction of the receding truck & boat. He sighed, then I turned him back to the grass.

Heading home, I wanted him to relax. He had slowed from the last trot just by my patting his neck, so I gave him some pats when he was starting to tense up and explained I wasn't in a hurry. He chilled in return, as much as he ever chills while in the desert. When we had some smooth looking trail, I asked him for some speed and he offered a medium trot. I could feel my legs flexing with the motion, keeping my rump just off the Butt Velcro and him flowing along underneath. He felt...content. Self-controlled. I kept him at a walk by patting his neck. Then at the very end, where it climbs up to overlook the neighborhood, I asked him to canter. I'd say he LOPED up the hill and that felt fine for us both. He slowed himself at the rocky spot at the top of the hill and we walked home on the pavement.

I've been pushing him to give more than he was confident enough to give freely, so I'm going to back things down a notch to today's level. I would actually like some more speed work and farther distances. And I think we'll get there. But it will take longer than I hoped. Oh well. We were much more like partners today than the last few rides, and being partners is good. BTW, this is the shorter leg position I used today. Not exactly a SHORT leg:






It would be interesting to know how I would have ridden had I learned to ride on a good trail horse instead of Mia. So much of what I've done has been defensive. OTOH, I live and ride in a place where riding defensively is a pretty good idea. But Bandit is just a better trail horse than Mia. He has better control of his emotions. And that is a wonderful thing. I can handle an occasional squirt sideways. One of our canters today was a canter-trot-canter transition. In two point. And that is fine by me. It is fine by me BECAUSE Bandit's mind never squirts out of his ears! That is a sight I can gladly live the rest of my life without seeing again.... 🙄...although a part of me will always miss Mia. 😕


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## Knave

I’m sorry you miss her.

I think Cash is similar to Bandit. He loses his marbles but they quickly return. The older he gets (he’s 5 now), the quicker they return.

My biggest problem with him, when something bothers him, is that he is strictly concerned with himself. He will sell anyone out in a moment. Of course it only lasts a moment, but he will hurt you on the ground, because he cares little if he’s actually scared.

Queen is a hot horse, or should I say hot… hmmm, she is an ambitious horse, and filled with fire. As much as that is her nature, she has almost never spooked. She is fearless, and when she has they have also been super momentary. More quick to return to thought than even Cash, she immediately reassesses the situation. Of course, she’s pretty sure she can handle anything in her path, a natural born killer you know. She however does take my safety into consideration, and seems extremely trustworthy on the ground.


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## gottatrot

Bandit sounds like a very nice ride. It's the best when you're able to go faster or slower at will, and to have a horse that will calm down after getting excited.


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## bsms

Bandit is turning into a nice ride. He wasn't that way when I got him. He was so used to being raced - and for long distances - that he'd get amped up for some time. But that isn't his fundamental nature. If I kept pushing him, he might revert to that again, trying to live up to my expectations. So I need to make sure my goals aren't making him feel he needs to be revved up during the ride. My rancher friend said what Mia needed was a bunch of 50 mile days in rough country so she'd learn to pace herself - that she couldn't afford to blow all her energy in an hour because there would still be another 11 hours left to go. I think he was right but I didn't have the physical strength plus the lack of water here...They talk about that with Border Collies, how they need to learn to rest when they can because they'll need to work all day. I also think there are a few horses that would never learn to pace themselves.

I also am coming to believe a lot of horses will try to meet our expectations of them. I think Bandit is that way. If the team needs him to be like X, then he'll try to be X. If I want him to be go-go-go, he'll try to act go-go-go. Thinking about yesterday, emphasizing trotting might be a good compromise. That is fast enough to work on his aerobic condition, and to get us out further, but may be safer for his footing on our uneven trails. And of course, when we find a couple hundred yards of good trail maybe ramp it up....for 200 yards. But....

I've always argued for humans that walking gives 80% of the value with 20% of the wear and tear. If going faster ruins it for Bandit...I'd rather have Bandit feel good about heading out with me!


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## Woodhaven

I do mostly trotting when out of the trails and only canter occasionally if the footing is good. I figure that trotting a horse has two feet coming down at the same time and has a better chance of recovering i he makes a misstep as in cantering where they land on one foot, just my thoughts on the subject.
sounds like you and bandit are enjoying your rides and that's what it's all about.


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> Bandit is turning into a nice ride. He wasn't that way when I got him. He was so used to being raced - and for long distances - that he'd get amped up for some time. But that isn't his fundamental nature. If I kept pushing him, he might revert to that again, trying to live up to my expectations. So I need to make sure my goals aren't making him feel he needs to be revved up during the ride. My rancher friend said what Mia needed was a bunch of 50 mile days in rough country so she'd learn to pace herself - that she couldn't afford to blow all her energy in an hour because there would still be another 11 hours left to go. I think he was right but I didn't have the physical strength plus the lack of water here...They talk about that with Border Collies, how they need to learn to rest when they can because they'll need to work all day. I also think there are a few horses that would never learn to pace themselves.
> 
> I also am coming to believe a lot of horses will try to meet our expectations of them. I think Bandit is that way. If the team needs him to be like X, then he'll try to be X. If I want him to be go-go-go, he'll try to act go-go-go. Thinking about yesterday, emphasizing trotting might be a good compromise. That is fast enough to work on his aerobic condition, and to get us out further, but may be safer for his footing on our uneven trails. And of course, when we find a couple hundred yards of good trail maybe ramp it up....for 200 yards. But....
> 
> I've always argued for humans that walking gives 80% of the value with 20% of the wear and tear. If going faster ruins it for Bandit...I'd rather have Bandit feel good about heading out with me!


I agree...I'm learning about this with Hero. His fundamental nature is to enjoy plodding. Maybe some of it has to do with the stifle issues, but Halla never wanted to be a slowpoke even after injuries, except for during the acute phase. 

But Hero seems much happier and relaxed when I just ask him to walk along and only trot in a short burst or do a few canter strides. 

I've heard people say horses naturally only walk and do short bursts of running here and there. Therefore horse sports with sustained exercise are unnatural, perhaps abusive.

I believe Halla loved to run for long distances. She asked to do so before I ever asked her to. But maybe some horses due to genetics are closer to the mindset that prefers to conserve energy. These horses might have less pleasure and more anxiety if made to go faster. Hero seems to. 
It could even be bred into some racehorses, a social anxiety that makes them want to keep up with others for safety. But that feels different than true competitive drive like Halla had.

Those who think horses don't care to run naturally should have seen Nala and Halla running laps around their pasture for fun. Amore usually watched.


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## Knave

@gottatrot Cashman is a plodder. That makes him happy. Queen wants to run, she plods because I ask her to, but you can feel her holding back the desire to just stretch out and run. Plodding would kill Bones or Beamer. Zeus would do it until he got bored.

Some horses love to run. I totally get that! Like you said, anyone who doesn’t just hasn't met enough horses.


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## bsms

I think Mia needed to run. I think the big reason she calmed down on the Navajo reservation was going out regularly for 2-4 mile runs at full speed. I'm a bit like that myself. I've used running for decades to handle stress. I crave it - not a fast runner ever, but I crave it. Did 4+ miles yesterday when my legs were tired as I went out the front door because at some level I need it. And Mia did.

OTOH, what my friend was pointing out was the need for pacing and emotional control. Trooper's sire, for example, behaved best when he was ridden 50 miles a day, day after day. Even then, the first 10 miles would be kind of energetic, I'm told. 75 mile days were not uncommon. And without much water, he learned to pace his effort rather than blow it all in the first few miles. I think Mia needed to be run, and she needed to be run far enough, fast enough and often enough to learn to save something. There is a big difference between a horse running, and a horse running uncontrolled. Mia always needed to run, I think, but she needed vastly longer distances than I could offer to learn some self-control while running.

Bandit? He'd be pretty happy with a brisk walk. I've learned I can use speed when he is feeling tense about something because a horse already cantering is less likely to be attacked than one plodding, so he finds security in the speed. If trotting past something makes it possible for him to go past something, then fine. He'll settle as soon as we're 30 yards past the scary thing. But if I start pushing him to give me more speed, and longer, he seems to slip back into, "_Oh boy, I've got to run for 10 miles_" mode. I want to teach him I'm happy with a good trot, or maybe a medium canter for...1/4 mile? Because around here, that is as good as it gets.


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## Knave

I don’t tend to really enjoy a horse until he learns to save himself. We don’t do 75 mile days ever, but have many in the 20s. Our horses learn to save their energy. This is excepting Bones. You cannot wear that horse out, and his nerves build and build in the mountains. He should have been an endurance horse, because I don’t care what you do to him, he’s not going to be tired and he’s not going to slow down. I think he’d die from under you before he even tried.

ETA- he is controlled though. I don’t mean to act as if I don’t walk him at work. I do a lot of the time. I just mean he’s still fire, still trying to go go go.


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## bsms

Bones sounds like Trooper's sire. My friend describes him as the best horse he'll ever toss a leg over. An 800 lbs part Appy part Arabian and he'd go full bore with 200-250 lbs on his back. And then go the next day. And the next. He didn't lose his mind while running but my friend said the first 10 miles often didn't take much time....😁

He also said there was a shortcut back from the desert that required the horse to jump up a 4 foot high ledge to make. That stallion was the only horse he ever tried on the shortcut and he said the stallion would do it after 50 miles in the Utah desert. Without hesitation. Said the first time he got to the ledge, he planned to turn around and give up. Then the stallion jumped it with my friend still on his back. There was a reason they bred every mare they could find to him before cancer finished him off. And Trooper was an unplanned mating. Out of season, but the aging stallion jumped one fence and bred a purebred Arabian mare thru another fence....


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## knightrider

I have also known horses that flew over the jumps by themselves when put in a pasture with jumps in it. My horse as a kid, Apache, loved to jump stuff, and if he wasn't in the jump pasture, and he felt like jumping, he sometimes would jump the manure pile.

My Magic Fox would sail over any jump with a rider if they got too near it. She didn't jump on her own, though.

There's a video somewhere on You Tube of a horse who dumps his rider in a jump class, and he just keeps jumping and jumping and JUMPING all over the place on the different jumps.


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## bsms

*Some posts about our vacation, horses, ranching, and possible moving*​
We got there on Sunday afternoon. One of the sons had gone up on the mountain that morning to look for some sheep. Because of COVID restrictions, they cannot get herders from Chile or Peru, and two of the three herders they used this year are....marginal. One is a good guy but thinks he knows more than the owner. The other just seems lazy. They have struggled all year with getting the 2 poor herders to keep the sheep together. They had a report of some sheep seen on a ridge away from the main herd so one of the sons went to look for them and bring them back. We went to meet him and so we could move the trailer & truck for him while he moved the sheep.

He left the trailer here and had ridden up the draw behind the truck.






You can only see part of the ridgeline. This photo taken the next day shows it better:






The draw on the right is the one he went up. Then looked for sign and eventually found a band of a couple dozen at the top of the ridgeline closer to the center. He brought them down the draw just left of center. It was 30 minutes past sunset when he brought them back up the valley toward the truck.






You can see the sheep left of center. Once we knew he was safe, we took the truck and trailer around to where the sale would take place while he moved the sheep there by himself - 5 more miles of riding! His horse and dog were both tired but he had picked his toughest horse and dog because he knew it would be a grueling day. And night, since it was very dark by the time he got them where they needed to be!

The sheer work involved in ranching can be hard for us city folks to appreciate. At least for me. This one was looking in the opposite direction. When my friend was starting off, he'd leave his farm in the valley long before sunrise because he needed to be on top of this ridge BEFORE the sun rose. The sheep bedded at the very top and he'd spend the morning moving them down to water and better feed. In mid afternoon, he'd leave and have to trust they would go back up on their own so he could get to his farm and do his chores there before going to sleep. And then get up 2 hours before dawn to load his horse and go back to the mountain and ride to the top before first light.... Eventually things progressed to where he could hire someone to stay with the sheep 24/7, which is a much better plan!






I have a hard time imagining riding a horse up to the top of that ridge, let alone doing so in the predawn blackness!


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## knightrider

What spectacular photos! I especially love the one with the golden trees! What about the possible moving? You didn't get to that part.


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## bsms

Monday was the first day of the sale. The sheep needed to be sorted. Ewes and a few ewe lambs to stay, and the rest to be trucked down and sold. Everyone needed to be in place before sunrise, so a 4 AM get up. The trucks took a long time to get ready to load, longer than normal, so most of the work began after dawn. The sun brought some much appreciated warmth!






The corral to the right is where the ones staying were sorted in to, while the one the people are in is a large corral where all the sheep started. They form a line, get sorted, and the ones going go up the ramp on to the truck. The sheep have no desire to be run into the loading ramp, so getting them to line up involves work for people. Dogs can help a little but people do this work better. The tarp is to let 2 people move in a line toward the sheep, who move much like horses would:






It is a family affair. My former room mate is older than I am. He still does some of the work, but the sons do most of the hard work. He also is introducing the grandkids into working sheep:






It was a glorious day. The Quakies were at peak yellow and the mountainsides were alive:






Once the lambs were sorted out and shipped off for weighing, the remaining sheep were turned loose. They will be moved down the mountain and moved to private winter range - leased or owned private land. A sight one doesn't see often:






This was all at 9,000' MSL. The surrounding valleys are about 6,000 MSL.


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## egrogan

The scenery really is incredible. Sorry if I missed it - this is Utah? 

Does your friend use border collies on the ranch? I do feel guilty that Hugh doesn't have goats or sheep to work here- it's really what he was bred for.


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## bsms

Tuesday involved getting things ready for the second sale Wednesday. Different flock of sheep grazing on a different allotment. The main concern was the weather. A storm was moving in and the second sale would be at 11,000' MSL, on a ridge that gets the worst weather. This is central Utah, in the Manti Mountains - the light blue section in the middle, between Richfield and Price:






To go to the sale area by the most direct route requires driving up a long grade with sheer drop offs, and that part of the road gets slicker than snot on a door knob when wet. After looking at weather maps, we went the long way around to improve the odds of actually GETTING there, although that put us behind schedule. The sons had left much earlier. Weather at the top was challenging, and yes, I froze my rear off that morning! Moving the sheep was much the same process but it was too darn cold and wet to take pictures. These were after the sheep were loaded. I didn't even take my camera out while outside the truck!






















This herder is their best one. I'm told he has an incredible work ethic - and I promise you, my friend believes almost everyone is lazy! To be described as an incredibly hard worker means he must be AMAZING!

The problem was the fog. There were two other herds nearby, getting ready for their own sale days. But in the fog, their herders lost control of the sheep. You simply couldn't see sheep who were more than 50 yards away! So when the sheep were released, they almost immediately intermingled with two other herds - and no one realized it until it was too late. This meant the following day involved all three owners/herders gather ALL the sheep, then running them thru the chutes to sort them, and waiting for the first sorted herd to move off before the running the remaining sheep thru AGAIN to split the two remaining herds. The sons handled most of that work. But the weather the following day was a lot better!














Whew! Posting lots of pictures is its own kind of work! I'll have to finish later.

BTW - They do use Border Collies. When they moved the cattle a few days later, for example, they needed to move a few hundred head from pastures on one side of the road to the original ranch and the loading ramp. One of the sons did it by himself. Well, by himself WITH THREE DOGS! He said the three dogs moved them faster and calmer than a dozen cowboys would.


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## whisperbaby22

Wow, what an adventure.


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## Knave

A good dog is worth his weight in gold. I think Junie B is going to be a heck of a dog. Both ours are too aggressive for sheep.


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## weeedlady

Thank you for sharing your "vacation" with us @bsms. It's definitely a working vacation. The scenery is stunning.


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## bsms

After the sales were finished, the sons had a day of sorting and re-sorting the flocks to separate the mixed herds. We joined my friend and his wife and mostly vacationed, although we hauled a sheep camp to the new site where the flock would stop while coming off the mountain and head to private grazing for the winter. This is a photo of his favorite fishing lake. He's semi-retired now and will sometimes drive into the mountains for an afternoon of fishing.






This is Joe's Valley Reservoir. Eventually, they will bring the sheep out past it, as in this old photo from 4 years ago:






But as you can see, the drought has taken a toll on it:






They should have trailed out on the road on the far side yesterday (Monday). But it is a long ways from where the second sale took place and here, with plenty of rough country in between. So the sheep camp was repositioned here, waiting for the sheep. The exact route will depend on the sheep and how the herders move them, but one of the two final routes comes over the ridge and down the slope to the camp. Herding sheep means a lot of time on steep slopes. The sheep love the slopes but it looks like some hard riding for man and horse! But the spot waiting for them is beautiful!






A mile or so away is a lake. The second option would bring the herd over this ridge, down to the lake, and then along the dirt road to the camp:






If your saddle is going to slide forward, you'd sure find it out herding sheep! My friend and his wife are seated, getting fishing poles ready. My wife was walking along the shore. I did more walking around while my wife joined them in fishing, catching between them 4 Tiger Trout - "_a sterile, intergeneric hybrid of the brown trout (Salmo trutta) and the brook trout (Salvelinus fontinalis)...Tiger trout are known to be highly piscivorous (fish-eating), and are a good control against rough fish populations. This makes tigers popular with many fish stocking programs, such as with the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources. Their own population numbers can be tightly controlled as well, since they are sterile._"






The water is obviously down here, too. They had good late rains but not enough to make up for the last couple of years of drought. They are hoping for a good snow year, which is when and how most of their water arrives. I'm amazed at the slopes their horses go up and down all the time. The horses DO get worn out, but this group of herders has been harder on the horses than they should have been. They took one horse off last June and gave it the rest of the summer off because the herder kept using the same horse each day instead of swapping between his two horses daily. Just rode the horse into the ground. Good herders are hard to find and COVID and international travel restrictions made it worse.


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## Knave

When I was a little girl I dreamed of being a sheep herder, much to my parent’s embarrassment. I watched the herders from a distance when we were working in the same mountains, and it was my fantasy career. You didn’t have to come home at night ever! People brought you groceries; you lived with your horse and dog. Perfect!

Sheep and cattlemen have some long standing dislike of one another. So I really did embarrass everyone quite a lot with my fantasy job.

Growing up I finally realized no one would hire a woman to live alone on the mountain, and I married very young anyways. I still think I’d like it though. I always tease husband I will run away and get a job for them.


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## bsms

By mid-morning of our last day, the cattle were loaded and ready to move to their winter range. The cows were separated from their calves. The calves will go to feed lots and then to slaughter. The cows, many of them pregnant, went to winter range. They will be corralled there with little feed for a couple of days. If let loose immediately, they might spread all over trying to find their calves! But once they are hungry enough, they will focus on eating and then will move as a herd. They used to trail them 70 miles to the winter range, but now usually haul them by truck. It was my wife's first time in an 18-wheeler! It cost $500 to fill the gas tank.






Their winter grazing allotment is near Temple Mountain. About 200 cattle which will graze on 65,000 acres for the winter. 200 cows. 100 square miles.






Unloading the cattle isn't always entirely straightforward:






Not prime grazing land. You'd be in trouble if you had 500 acres here for farming. My friend's wife of 35 years is sort of from this area. Her grandfather and great-grandfather homesteaded out here, and in the 1920s had 500+ horses they raised as remounts for the US Cavalry - mostly thoroughbreds. However, when the Taylor Grazing Act was passed, land was granted to private owners based on tax records and apparently they had been less than forthcoming on their taxes. As a result, they hadn't filed on much land, didn't have the tax data showing how much land they used....so they lost all claim to it. It is an accident of history that one of their granddaughters now is part of a ranch using that land!






Heading back to the home ranch:






It was 3 pm when we got back & my wife and I headed out shortly after that. We made reservations in Page AZ. Took about 5 1/2 hours to drive there, mostly obeying the speed limit. Not a typical vacation, but I think it is a privilege for a town boy like myself to see a genuine working ranch in an area that is both beautiful AND very hard to eek a living out of. The hours are long, the work hard and the reward variable. This year, the three herds that got mixed up all took heavy losses - and all in proportion. They suspect predation that was enabled by marginal sheep herders because no one can hire good ones right now. They think a lot of coyotes lived on lamb this summer.

Regulation is another problem. Most of the folks now in the US Forest Service and BLM are NOT sympathetic - nor knowledgeable - to or about ranching! The ranchers can try to explain but too many 30 year old natural resource types (what I wanted to do out of college) think they know everything there is to know. And part of what they "know" is ranching is evil, private business is evil, and humans have no right to "use" Mother Gaia. There is a reflexive hostility toward ranching and my friend's family is looking to reduce their dependence on government grazing permits because those permits can be cut on the government's whim. The days of operations like these are, IMHO, limited because the votes are found in the cities and they folks in the cities cannot imagine what this sort of life is like.

PS: My editorializing is MY view. Still have some friends who have finished working in the Forest Service and BLM. They say the same thing - that the days of "multiple use" that we were taught in college are disappearing due to politics. But my views are my own and not entirely in synch with the ranching family.


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## bsms

Knave said:


> Growing up I finally realized no one would hire a woman to live alone on the mountain


They hired an American woman to herd a couple of years ago. She worked one year and they said she did a great job. Not much experience, but she listened and worked hard and they would have been glad to hire her again. But she didn't want another year. FWIW, she went everywhere armed. People can disappear in the back country too..... 😕 It isn't all pretty country and smiles!


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## bsms

*Moving*: I'd be willing to work on moving NOW. My wife? Not so enthused. She likes the area. Both of us, on the whole, liked the area around Price more than we did Richfield. Price is much more desert and we've lived in the desert for years. We LIKE the desert! We were also told the area around Price is "less Mormon". I spent 8 years in Utah and that is worth considering if you aren't Mormon. You couldn't PAY me to move to the Wasatch Front, which is now very urban and not very Mormon...but when the vast majority of a population is LDS (or Baptist, maybe, in the Southeast)...then being of a different religion can be awkward.

My wife likes the idea of 4 seasons, of being able to plant an orchard, of having a vegetable garden that doesn't get cooked by the morning sun. She really likes the style of the older homes - one pulled off the Internet at random:






But...it is a long way to go look at houses and a lot would depend on finding the right property. We both agree we aren't likely to FIND the right property for the next year or maybe two. And at some point, moving will get hard due to age.  I'd like us to fly to Salt Lake this winter, rent a car and spend some time looking around in the cold. If we think 4 seasons is the answer, we can keep an eye on things. But we might also consider getting a travel trailer and driving up a couple times a year as an alternative. Particularly since the house market is still insane and finding a property where we can keep horses limits us.


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## TrainedByMares

Beautiful country and a cool vacation! How did you manage your horses when you were away? Even leaving for a couple hours, I am always thinking ' I need to get back to my herd '. 

It is tough looking at far-away properties. Before we bought our current property, I drove 14 hours round trip to look at places on the eastern shore of Virginia a couple of times. 

The desert is a fascinating,captivating place. Years ago,while driving through the high plains of Nevada and Wyoming, I just wanted to park the car and walk out there,become part of the scenery.


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## bsms

TrainedByMares said:


> How did you manage your horses when you were away?


Our oldest granddaughter watched the dogs and horses for us. For pay. She didn't do a flawless job, but it was good enough and a good growing experience for her. She has a couple years of high school left. We're hoping she'll want to watch them again. I like horses but they can be quite limiting too.


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## bsms

Before and after ride pictures today. The new saddle pad is only 3/4 inch thick, versus the old one's 1 inch - although the old one had worn down to maybe 1/2". Anyways, I decided to add a Mayatex blanket to it. I like the look and it gives Bandit a thicker feel to him. He's a freakishly NARROW horse.

There is a thread on helmet versus no helmet. The no helmet world is largely limited now to western riding, and many western riders consider helmets mandatory now too. Heck, I wore a helmet today and will most days because almost all of our riding now starts and ends with riding on pavement. Add he wears hoof boots and the chance of slipping just seems too high for me to chance it. But overall, western riders are far more likely to go without a helmet.

However, I was thinking about it while riding today. A forward, rotating fall off the horse is the best way to hit your head. If you fall off backwards or twist sideways, the initial blow is likely to be to the shoulder or back. Landing shoulder first arguably reduces (not eliminates!) peak noggin impact.

Before we went on vacation, I was riding Bandit in our arena, practicing cantering in two point. I pointed him toward some grass and told him to slow. He apparently saw a clump of grass just to the right of us because he slammed on the brakes and twisted to the right, for an impressive canter/stop 90 right turn combo. I was unprepared for it, hits the swells...but the swells acted like the poleys of my Aussie saddle, stopping the forward motion of my hips and twisting my hips around. Automatically, with no input from me, just like the Aussie saddle did. Only the pressure was applied higher on the thigh. 

Bandit gave some nice full trots and canters today, but one of his canters turned into a racing canter. I didn't see the other horses but he was hauling buns at a speed that deserved a full gallop, not a sewing machine canter. I was in a half-seat or maybe a little higher. But suppose he slammed on the brakes, or stumbled. Assuming I came off - likely if he stumbled - it looked to me like the rise in the ground of the saddle, plus the swells, would automatically twist me sideways as I came off, so I'd be more likely to hit shoulder or back first.

I've long since lost the link, but I read a long time ago that English saddles were associated with a much higher risk of head injury. Western saddles were associated with a higher risk of shoulder and back injuries. I figured that made sense because English saddles are used in jumping and jumping involves much greater risk. But...maybe the design of the western saddle results in western riders, in the same sort of fall, hitting shoulder first? And the head being a secondary impact? A secondary impact COULD kill you, but the risk of death ought to be lower.









VS







Don't know and I don't know of a way to test my hypothesis.

BTW - Bandit is as "western" as a horse ought to get. Arabian/Mustang from the Navajo Nation, ridden in the Sonoran Desert. But he's not into "jog" or "lope". When it is time to move out, he seems to figure he might as well MOVE. And my contract with him says I'll figure out how to ride it. Good horse but I think we were both a bit tired by the end of ride.


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## gottatrot

Beautiful and interesting pictures. Fascinating to see how they work with the animals.

I believe the kind of horses you ride and what type of riding you do has more of an effect on injuries than the saddle. Meaning, the three concussions I had from getting bucked off Amore that convinced me to wear a helmet all occurred in a western saddle.


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## gottatrot

Adding a little more to my earlier post...

The first time I galloped fast in a western saddle, I could feel that the forces were strong enough that I would easily fall out of the saddle if something went wrong. It's like how you can't hold onto something if the force is high enough...at some point what you are doing with the horse creates enough force that it overrides the mechanical advantages the style of the saddle might give you at slower speeds. 
That's what I believe anyway.

This was one reason why I changed to riding in an english saddle. Slightly hard to explain, but I reached a level of riding where if what the horse did could get me off, it required enough force that it would get me off regardless of the tack I was using. My thought is that with that kind of force, the way you land depends on other factors than the saddle. But I think at slower speeds or with less force, the tack could easily factor in to how you come off or land. 

The way I was coming off horses, having more tack was a problem, because coming off cleanly meant less injuries since I was coming off anyway.


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## Knave

I haven’t ridden too much in an English saddle, but I feel fairly confident in them. I say fairly because it’s in my head where I struggle. When Bones was a colt and I was riding him english one day, my dad came out and said we should cut. “Ummm, did you look at my saddle?” He said get over myself, he could cut in an English saddle if he wanted to. Won some bet in one once, but I can’t remember the story.

So I cut on Bones, and really it was fine. Yet getting on Queen in the English saddle that day I felt super vulnerable.

I like the way an English saddle places you. I think the occasional use improves my riding.

My fear isn’t of hitting my head. It’s endoing. There are certain rules pounded in to my head from my father and even some from my grandfather.

I have an issue. When a horse falls, I stick in that saddle like glue. Ya, good for a bucking horse, but not good when you need to get out of the way. I did manage to jump off of Cash mid fall once, but every other time I was centered. When he was teetering between flipping and getting himself back up I never wanted to move knowing I would flip because our balance was so precarious.

He doesn’t fall like that anymore, but most of our biggest wrecks in my lifetime have been from endoing a horse. Usually from having the horse opened up to turn a cow and getting a foot caught or in a hole or whatever.

Grandpa says, “bend your knees, make it a habit, just pick up your knees!” I can’t mentally do it! It’s too far into a wreck before I think of it. He says, if you pick up your knees high in a fall, as soon as it begins, most of the time you will be thrown clear of the horse. “Bend your knees!”

I’m pretty sure if I get endoed with on Cash, and he flips his weight onto me, that I am done for. Sure, placement could be just perfect, like when I endoed Chagrin and all that happened was being knocked out and getting a concussion, but just a saddle horn to the chest, a cantle to the back… there are so many ways a giant horse could make for some giant damage.


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## bsms

Had to look up endoing: "_1.Verb. To crash. Usually but not limited to a bicycle or motorcycle. Short term for "end over end" or "end over the front" First coined a term in the mid 1970's..._"

I think my issue is concern for coming face first off the front of the horse, based on how Mia spooked by either suddenly stopping and dropping, or by her immediate, violent spin. I sometimes got bruises from the poleys on my Aussie saddle before I learned to use my stirrups to prevent being slammed forward so hard. My only fall so far was a violent spin & leap when I was trying to dismount. I agree if the movement is violent enough, all bets are off. But I hit my back first, and then my head (wearing a baseball cap). My head didn't hurt but my back still has issues sometimes.

I've read head injuries are much more likely when someone comes off the front. That was why Littauer stopped teaching the old Italian Cavalry method of gripping with the knees - too many students were falling on their heads and they didn't if they kept their knees loose. I'm probably needlessly paranoid from my time on Mia.

You made a good point on the thread about helmets about the risks of ranching being part of life. My friend said his scariest time was when he realized his youngest son had decided to take the sheep down the mountain after a sale...in a blizzard. No cell phone reception out there and he and his wife sweated it for a day before their son and sheep showed up safe. They thought there was a real chance they'd never see him alive again. The son says it was one of the dumbest things he ever did. But ranch life is inherently dangerous. They think it is funny that someone who spent his adult life strapping into ejections seats and getting shot at (badly) finds ranching too risky for my tastes, but....a different sort of risk. At least to me. Although what I'd really stress out over is working for a year and THEN finding out if you made any money!

Still, people who hike or work or DO things in the big outdoors have to accept risks. Even breaking down in a truck can mean a 30 mile walk to help. It could be the difference in helmet use has more to do with becoming callous about risks, particularly since the risk of head injury....well, everything I can find says it is huge if you jump. Can be when training a horse or dealing with problem horses. But it is pretty small for riding flat on typical horses who aren't being pushed to their own limits of performance in the quest of sports.

That is part of what I need to figure out about Bandit and running. Is he doing it for FUN, or is he feeling I'm pushing him to do it. Because I'm not, but his background includes being ridden with very different expectations than mine! If he's enjoying it, then I'm sure HE will slow if the ground needs it. But if he thinks it is what I want from him...maybe nnot.

If Bandit falls while hauling butt, I'm going to get hurt. Leaves open IF I should let him go that fast or not. He certainly had many, many miles of cantering and galloping in his past life. I definitely want to have a helmet on IF we try it because I'm not God's gift to riding and because we have so few places with smooth ground. I'd LOVE a nice dirt road somewhere but we're lucky to have that for 100+ yards.

Whatever his faults, Bandit is a vastly safer horse to ride than Mia! It is so good to have a horse who thinks!


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## bsms

Knave said:


> Grandpa says, “bend your knees, make it a habit, just pick up your knees!” I can’t mentally do it! It’s too far into a wreck before I think of it. He says, if you pick up your knees high in a fall, as soon as it begins, most of the time you will be thrown clear of the horse. “Bend your knees!”


I'll try to remember this. No one knows what will go thru one's mind but maybe if this is in the background of mine, it will click if I need it.


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## Knave

I remember it too, but I am too late always! Maybe it will save me one day though. We’ve all endoed horses. I have a couple times, my mother has a hole in her thigh from the saddle horn hitting it endoing. Husband’s done it and my father has many times I’m sure. Grandpa of course probably had endoed many times.

They’ve been drug, but I’ve been lucky enough not to. I almost did once. Husband was drug a long ways by a bucking horse when his spur got caught in his cinch.

Here’s another rule for the back of your mind. Roll if you are being drug. Often it will pull your foot out. Sometimes it is in falling that you get hung up, and try and hold the horse down.

My dad rolled one horse who fell on him off of him once to save himself from a sure kick to the head. He’s still a powerhouse.

These kinds of things are pounded into our kids. It saves lives.

I can’t imagine how you did what you did. I think I would pass out! The military wouldn’t appreciate that. Lol


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## bsms

Apart from your daughter @Knave, what about head injuries? Any from endoing? I expect to mostly wear a helmet riding around here if only because I'm now doing a lot of riding on pavement, but I'm curious about what others have experienced in head injuries and horses.


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## Knave

I think my grandpa’s dad died when grandpa was young from coming off a colt and hitting his head on a rock in a canyon. If I remember right grandpa found him. He’d already had a bad injury from a kick to the head I believe. When I endoed Chagrin when I was nine, I’m sure I had a concussion. I remember wanting to sleep right there, but crawling to the road so my father would find me.

My father had a mri for something, and it showed his skull was once broken from above his eyebrow all the way over his head and down. He remembered what horse wreck that was, but I can’t remember what he said. He once was in a coma for two weeks when he was little from a horse wreck, maybe that was what caused it. There is an old newspaper article I have that covered his accident.

When JP, that roan horse, bucked him off I’m sure he had a concussion. He was very confused, but more long lasting was new damage to his shoulder, which he couldn’t move for a couple months.

People are rarely taken in to the doctor, so most things go untreated and unknown. Shoot, I didn’t know that horse broke my neck when I was little until an adult mri.

I don’t think my daughter would have gotten a head injury from getting bucked off if she hadn’t had such a bad one from the basketball.

The neighbor’s boy endoed a horse last year, trying to chase a poacher. He had bleeding on the brain and they just managed to save him. He had to wear a helmet riding for a little while. He doesn’t now, and even plays football this year.

The neighbor on the other side is on concussion 7! He is reckless though, and maybe that’s because of the concussions. His dad was hurt very badly when he was a young boy from a kick to the head, and he took over the work as a 7th grader. I substitute taught him back then.

So, yes, there have been some good head injuries in my circle. I’m sure there are lots I’m forgetting. One man I went to school with has had over 30! He’s crazy as all get out, and people joke he’s unkillable. It doesn’t make sense to me, how dramatically my daughter’s life has been altered, but I was pointed out by my aunt that these people are probably very effected as well.

Yet, there are tons of other injuries involving cattle and equipment. Pesticides and dust, and things you don’t even think about. Broken ribs and punctured lungs seem more common.


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## bsms

Hmmm...maybe cattle are more dangerous than sheep? My friend and one son keep a couple hundred cattle but mainly for diversification. They aren't fond of working cattle. One son refuses. He'll help out with the cattle but refuses to own any. Of course, none of them have been seen in the hospital - can't afford it - so maybe they have previous injuries they don't realize. They all ride in sneakers and ball caps (or wool watch caps). The sneaker thing freaks me out. But I can't imagine putting a helmet on for a 12-14 hour day.

Thanks for the perspective. All the ranchers I've known have bee kicked, hit, knocked down, etc. I was flattened by rams working for a biochemical company in college. And I will always remember when my friend asked me to help him brand and castrate a couple of calves. Seemed a bit late but I showed up and those calves weighed 800 lbs. No horses. Him. Me. A stout post in the center of the corral. And about 3 hours of brutal work for 2 darn "calves"!


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## Knave

I think sheep take a different kind of riding. Cows are fast and quicker to separate. Of course sheep can be fast, but the herders I’ve seen ride a different caliber of horse. They seem like gentle plugs, and the herders don’t seem to love horses like cowboys do.

Cowhorses have to be quick and catty. Things happen fast. Cashman is not particularly quick or catty, but he manages.

I’m sure there are a lot of injuries that go unknown in both worlds though.


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## egrogan

bsms said:


> I think my issue is concern for coming face first off the front of the horse, based on how Mia spooked by either suddenly stopping and dropping, or by her immediate, violent spin.


This happened to me a few years ago, I think it was when I had first gotten Fizz but it could have been Isabel, I don't remember now. We were cantering on an easy trail behind the boarding barn, I was in two point (clearly more precariously than I thought), horse tripped hard on a root and went to her knees, I went straight over her neck and took most of the fall straight on my face. Gave myself a good black eye, and I'm sure I split my nose down the middle. I was insanely lucky as I fell mostly on soft woods trail footing, with a really large rock inches from the imprint my face made in the dirt.

The pain was instant. It was a rare Sunday afternoon when not a soul was at the barn for some reason, not even the barn owner who was always there. I walked the horse back to the barn and my whole body was trembling. I don't really remember untacking and turning back out but obviously I did. Maybe the worst part was that my husband was in the Caribbean at some bachelor party weekend and I was home alone, so I had to drive home and figure out what to do to take care of myself. The drive home was down a really narrow dirt road leaving the barn, and some a**hole in a massive truck going twice as fast as he should have been ran me off the road into a ditch in my little sedan and popped my tire, bending the frame enough there was no way I could deal with it myself. So I was probably mildly concussed, alone on the side of a road with barely any cell service, and had no choice but to wait for a wrecker truck to come get me and the car and tow it back to my house. Meaning I had no way to get out to urgent care (husband had second car parked at the airport). It took over an hour for the tow. That was probably the scariest injury, not because I was really that badly hurt (though a black eye is always dramatic) but because it's a terrible feeling to realize you're alone when you really need some help.


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## Knave

Here is my sell video of JP I made once when he was five. It’s not working, but kind of shows the type of moves you are needing at work. You can skip all the circles loped. It’s different than the videos I usually show of playing, because it was showcasing the talent of the horse.


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## bsms

The video is like the video that gave me a clue how to stay on Mia. Except one never knew WHEN she would move like that, which led to me constantly riding kind of weird. 

I think you are right about the sheep. Herding involves a huge amount of WALKING across very rough country. Sheep love steep slopes so the herders are on them all the time. But the vast majority is at a walk. I can see where cattle would require more....agility. And high speed work. That is why I like it when Bandit decides, in the arena, to do a turning stop, or shifts to a canter without asking. Gives me practice at riding sudden, quick movements. When he spooks now, it is just something we do sometimes. Nothing to freak out over.


egrogan said:


> it's a terrible feeling to realize you're alone when you really need some help.


Both times I've been hurt - when Mia exploded during a dismount and when her saddle slipped all the way over on her side and I had to jump off - my family was out of town. Stinks to hurt all over and have no one around to help out!


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## Knave

I hate when you get hurt and you are alone. I hated riding Keno, because on a colt I am usually riding alone, and that horse had so many dangerous things to try and overcome. I just hated knowing no one could help me as he would throw himself down and try and pull me out of the saddle, or run into things. Who wants to run into things?! Boy I dislike even thinking about that horse.

My grandpa told me a story once of breaking his leg badly working, on a team I believe. He had to crawl dragging that leg for a couple miles home in bad weather.

Oh the stories he told me! I miss that man. He gave such a view into the past. Running mustangs, working teams, big storms and so many great things he had done in his life. Stories that people who love horses like we do just crave.


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## gottatrot

(Sorry, long with pics)
@Knave, I value that toughness that you described in the helmet thread. It's not to be arrogant or anything, but just in a practical way, you know you have to be tough if you're going to be doing the things you do. My family has that same culture. Even riding bikes as kids, we'd drag ourselves in with knees turned into hamburger from road rash and just wipe it off and try to get back out playing again.

It's very unfair and unpredictable how some concussions seem to do nothing, and others cause so many changes. The girl who fell off Amore onto her head was passed out for minutes. I was certain she must have serious issues going on inside her brain. Yet she was completely recovered in a couple of weeks, and month later had no memory problems or anything like that.

Quite possibly some of us will have problems show up later on. It's why now that I'm more educated, I want to avoid more serious hits to the brain if possible. I'm more in the category of your daughter as a post-concussion person, even though I have not had any known issues from concussions. When I was 8, I fell in slippery Sunday shoes straight onto my face, knocked myself out and broke my nose so badly I had to have a long surgery to fix it. As a very ridiculously reckless young teen, I hit my head other times pretty hard, biking and playing rough sports. We played football, volleyball, basketball, every sport known to man. I knocked myself out once attempting to jump over a hurdle at the track just messing around. Stupid.

When I was 18, I had another bad concussion when I jumped off a 3 ft high bridge railing I was walking on, onto black ice. That knocked me out cold, and I felt paralyzed when I woke up, but soon was moving fine. My head got a big goose egg and I bled a lot, but I didn't go to a doctor. I had a bad whiplash though, and went to a chiropractor to get that treated several days later.

That was all before I started riding Amore and getting bucked off. When they say some people are hard headed, they really mean stupid and that is me. I was wondering if having a headache for two days and feeling dizzy and sick was necessary, and that's when it occurred to me that some people ride wearing helmets, and I discovered I could buy one at my local tack store. 

I've heard some people have complete personality changes after concussions, mood disorders, and all the memory problems and balance issues you know about too. These things can also happen after viral meningitis, and I've had that as well, but only had some vision changes for a month or so.

I was thinking about the question of how people fall and hit their head. I understand @bsms' point that falling off shouldn't really just be seen as a normal part of riding. But the green horse period is very sketchy that way, and I've had a lot of issues like @Knave with horses losing their footing or doing defensive maneuvers at speed. 

A main way I've seen people hit their head is when the horse falls down sideways so fast that the rider is thrown sideways onto their head. In this picture it looks like the rider will hit his shoulder, but I've seen the horse go down so fast the horse and rider are both parallel to the ground and the rider hits shoulder immediately followed by the head. A girl I know hit her helmet on a rock doing this kind of fall, and it cracked but she didn't even get a concussion.









This is the sort of action that happened to the girl who fell off Amore. Except she was a rather secure rider and her legs were down in the stirrups and her seat was on the horse much longer. Both of Amore's front legs went back underneath her, and she fell with her chin flat on the ground. I've rarely seen a horse fall like that. The rider hit the side and back of her head.









Why I always hit my head getting bucked off Amore...she was such a fast twister, and such a violent bucker, that I would end up like this. Somehow with her action and her height, my head would hit first. As in this photo, I would be hard pressed to say that I went off the front of the horse. Sometimes I was closer to the back end, but still ended up on my head.

















I don't know, @Knave...I prefer to have my legs down, because even when I've thought a horse was going to endo a lot of times they recovered and then I was able to stay on. I tend to keep my head up, and legs down like this.








My goal is to maintain the ability to spread eagle if necessary. If the horse rolls right over you, it's very bad. But sometimes they end up missing you to one side, or just getting a leg. I've had that happen. Never had one go over me, but it is a fear.









I've often had horses fall sideways and ended up next to the horse like this. Sometimes on my feet even.









The number one way I've fallen off horses, over and over and over again. I fall to the side, and land on one hip or the other. 








Hind end is heavy, it takes a moment to get legs and arms clear of the horse, hind end hits the ground first. 99.9% of the time. Either right hip or left hip, depending on which way the horse went.


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## Knave

@gottatrot it does seem just odd to me, how some concussions end up fine, some end up in epilepsy, and some like her. I am coming home now from a dr appointment with her.

The more I think about the neuro appointment, the more I don’t like it. Obviously she showed zero short term memory, and other issues. She wasn’t having headaches bad at the time, but now they are worse. Her emotions are out of control, and that’s all the neuro focused on. Maybe that combination with the twitches had her recommend a neuropsyc, which is fine, but when I went to make the appointment they are strictly an autism clinic.

I wish she’d have done another mri or something. Her general memories are getting worse by the day… and her physical symptoms. Oh well, we focus on the emotions right now.

Ugh, enough venting I guess.


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## bsms

That is an example of where, if someone is not riding for max performance, the fall should never happen. Mia turned far harder, sharper and with less warning - but long legs in an Aussie saddle, or long & active legs in a western, and one should stay on.








This is more of what I fear. Not from jumping, of course, except on a rough trail at speed if a horse clips a rock with a hoof...or would it take more than that? I've gone face first into the ground jogging when my toe clipped a rock, but I have 2 feet and Bandit has 4. And not jumping, his body would probably be more level at the start of the fall. I honestly think Bandit could recover from most situations like this if I stay balanced and out of his way.

What causes a horse to fall sideways? The son of my rancher friend (the one who left in a blizzard once) had the trail collapse out from under him one time. He threw himself sideways uphill, hung on, and the horse bounced 50 feet down. To his surprise (and the horse's he said), the horse was alive, well, and once he got down to the horse, he rode away.

I'm not criticizing anyone else. Just trying to figure out how I should approach things with Bandit. He's never going to go full bronco on me. I fully understand wearing a helmet with any horse likely to go full bronco. That MIGHT have been Bandit in 2015, but it sure isn't him now. And I try to give him freedom to adjust his speed, without asking, if he feels the need. He's actually an experienced horse and part of my belief is that an experienced horse given some freedom of decision-making isn't likely to fall because HE doesn't want to fall. And knows how not to fall, if he's had a chance to learn.

That's why I'm finally exploring things on Bandit that I wouldn't have tried on Mia for $5000. There is an innate sense of self-possession and good sense to Bandit that Mia never had and, frankly, Trooper will never have.

And that gets back to why helmets ought to be an individual choice. I rode Trooper this evening. Wearing a helmet. He did well actually. Took him out in the desert solo. It was easier to do it on Trooper than on Bandit. He's more inclined to just obey - but Bandit is more likely to tell me "_Nope! I want to live forever and this is not the way to do it!_" I have less confidence we'll go on a straight path with Bandit. He might want a few detours. But I trust Bandit to get to the end goal in one piece. And so will I - if I listen to him and if I can stay out of his way. Not interfering with the horse is one of those things I think instructors ought to emphasize, but it seems most of the riding world wants to emphasize control! And...not interfering is harder than it sounds..... 😕

@Knave , I really wished I trusted doctors. But I don't. I get the feeling many of them walk into the room with their minds already made up. We aren't individuals to them. Just cases. Or maybe that is just here.


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## Knave

I think that here too. I didn’t realize she also was a psychologist, and so I think she grabbed on to that aspect and neglected some of the other pieces. I do think getting her emotions under control is extremely important, but I also know who she was before the accident. She was not this person, and it is worsening. I will give the ssri’s a shot though, and then see what is left, hoping she doesn’t get worse in the meantime.

A lot of things will trip a running horse, but to some extent they seem better able to focus on their footing and the momentum helps. Of course, I endoed Chagrin at a dead run, but there was hidden wire in the brush. The other horses have all been at a slower lope.

I have only tipped a horse sideways under the condition you discussed that I can remember. Oh, I did tip Runt sideways barrel racing due to bad footing. I tipped on Bones when his boots had no traction on a very steep sidehill. I thought there was no way he’d get up without us rolling down the mountain, but if I moved I would certainly roll him down it. We balanced, and it took him some time, but he got up. Man is that horse an athlete!


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## gottatrot

For us, sideways falls have mostly happened on wet grass around a sharp corner. A couple of other times on wet clay that was shallow. That stuff is slick. I've also been in arenas that had very slick footing and had horses fall. I suspect the horse in the surf that had fallen sideways stepped in a hole. I knew a couple people who liked to run horses in the shallow water, but I always thought that was too dangerous, because there can be drop offs and holes under the water.

I'm always amazed at what horses can recover from. I've had horses trip and almost go down many times, but with their four legs they nearly always catch themselves. 

Horses with a sense of self-preservation are far safer than others. I also have to say that I've ridden so many horses that are almost difficult to come off of if you are a decent rider. Hero is one of these, even when he has bucked and been a little wild. I've rarely come off of him in the worst circumstances. Certain horses like Amore are so easy to come off of, and so spooky that you really should wear a helmet. With Hero, I don't feel it is so necessary. But I should be smart and try not to get any more concussions.

Doctors are often like police officers. They have a hard time keeping an open mind and seeing people as individuals rather than as a category they have dealt with before.


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## bsms

I hadn't thought about "slick", Southern Arizona doesn't have a lot of "slick"! Although Bandit and I had a brief dispute the last ride where we cantered moderate fast in the wash we normally do, but I didn't ask him to slow because I planned to keep going straight and I realized almost too late that he was expecting our normal 90 degree turn to a short-cut home. I went to two hands on the reins and kept him straight with about a second to spare. He wasn't happy about it. He'd have tried the turn in the sand.

Maybe he'd have made it. But there are rocks under the sand and maybe not. Given how aware (and how interested he is in self-preservation!) I suspect it would have been OK. We weren't flying at that point anyways.

I've watched Mia slip and fall sideways running by herself in our corral. She was an example of a horse who needed more experience. And who sometimes just lost her mind with excitement. I almost always wore a helmet on her and 100% would have made more sense. I've seen Trooper slip and fall in mud. Once. In 6 1/2 years, I haven't seen Bandit slip or fall anywhere, although he's tripped and gone to his knees walking or slow trotting in our arena. I think from boredom and not paying attention. I could imagine him slipping wearing hoof boots on pavement, which is why I wear a helmet any time we do so.

I'm certainly not ANTI-helmet, but it bugs me to hear, "_EVERY TIME or you are an unthinking, uncaring idiot!_" There are lots of variables. What I choose for 60 minutes of riding is different from what I'd choose for 12 hours. If we ever DO move to Utah, I'm certain any riding I do on Bandit in the mountains or in the San Rafael Swell will be helmetless:


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## Txshecat0423

I’m going to sound stupid, which isn’t really odd in and of itself (LOL!), but what does “endoed” mean? I’m just not familiar with that term and Googling didn’t help [emoji2368]


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## Knave

It’s not stupid @Txshecat0423! I forget not everyone talks like me. It means you summersault your horse. End over end…


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## Txshecat0423

Knave said:


> It’s not stupid @Txshecat0423! I forget not everyone talks like me. It means you summersault your horse. End over end…


@Knave:

Ahhhh thank you! That makes sense when explained, but when googling it,
I was “Well, pretty sure that’s not what it meant”! [emoji1787][emoji1787][emoji1787]


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## knightrider

bsms said:


> I really wished I trusted doctors. But I don't. I get the feeling many of them walk into the room with their minds already made up.


I feel very strongly that way also. I tell my kids, "Medicine is an inexact science. Don't expect doctors to know what is wrong with you." But, I really wish we had some answers. I wish you had some answers too, @Knave. I hate that you are going through this.

Just last month, Aci stepped in a super deep sideways gopher tortoise hole and went down sideways with me under him. I was kinda banged up, but happily, I was able to re-mount and get home. Isabeau was the champion rear-up- hurl-herself-sideways-in-a-rage mare. She only caught me under her once, and I was on crutches with a bad ankle for a week. I lied to my family and said I just woke up injured. I didn't want them to know I was riding such a dangerous mare. When I was a kid, my horse was galloping, stepped in a hole and endoed big time. I don't know how long I was unconscious, but it was a while. My mom didn't know, and I didn't tell her because she wasn't keen on me riding and would gladly have stopped it. I was lucky because I came home and slept all afternoon. I didn't know sleeping after a concussion was bad. No ill effects from that one. Helmets weren't even invented for riders in those ancient long-ago days.


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## bsms

I don't mind wearing a helmet for the short (60 min) rides I do. I prefer my cotton hat but since I've been trying to add some speed work with Bandit...a helmet helps my confidence, even if it is no guarantee against serious injury.






That photo was taken along a section Bandit and I raced along yesterday (in the opposite direction). I tried crouching IN the saddle instead of a half-seat. Don't know if it was more comfortable for Bandit or I was just a bit more forward or what, but he flew around that curve. Unfortunately, I'm talking about 20 seconds, maybe less, because once around that curve it goes downhill for a rougher 50 yards and then turns 90 degrees. And I wanted him slowed before we hit the downhill.

It felt good to me, though, so I went back with Bandit and did a sweeping turn around in the desert to try again. He obviously understood because as soon as we joined the trail, he took off. I have almost no experience with galloping apart from Mia's bolts, and I wasn't paying attention to anything other than trying to stay alive during those. But I think Bandit was an easier ride because he was galloping instead of cantering. Hard to analyze when the distance is so short! I got him partially slowed before the downhill but we did a good trot down it and...got him slowed - or maybe HE slowed himself - in time for the turn.

I wouldn't have tried it without the helmet. Realistically, though, if Bandit slipped sideways going around the curves (there are two in 20 seconds) or clipped a rock and endoed...well, it would be bad. "_Whether the stone hits the pitcher or the pitcher hits the stone, it is going to be bad for the pitcher!_" I guess if nothing else the helmet was less likely to blow off. He was kind of excited so I insisted he walk a couple of acceptable speed spots on the remaining ride home. It would be so much nicer for both of us if I could experiment during a mile run instead of being limited to very short bursts. I think Bandit would like to open it up and just GO too. But this is an unforgiving land and I'm old!

And yes, even trying this on Mia would have been suicidal. Her mind would have blown and stopping would probably come at the end of the fall.


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## gottatrot

knightrider said:


> ...I was lucky because I came home and slept all afternoon. I didn't know sleeping after a concussion was bad. No ill effects from that one. Helmets weren't even invented for riders in those ancient long-ago days...


FWIW, it's not that sleeping after a concussion is bad. It's actually good to sleep after a brain injury to help with healing. The problem with sleeping is that when someone is asleep you can't notice if they are having symptoms because there is bleeding in the brain. So if they start getting confused or delirious, or lose consciousness because of pressure on the brain, no one will notice because they're already asleep. If someone has a scan and it looks like there are no problems, then sleeping is OK. It's only when a person doesn't know if any damage has occurred, because they haven't been to the hospital that sleeping can be dangerous. 

My cousin's girlfriend fell down the stairs while my cousin was gone, and then went to bed. When he came home he thought she was sleeping, and it took many hours before he realized he couldn't wake her up. She had bleeding in the brain, and it almost looked bad for my cousin because she had bruises all around her face. But other family members reported to the doctor that there was blood at the bottom of the stairs, and verified that he had been out working, so it was not viewed as suspicious. After a few days when the swelling in her brain was better, she actually remembered falling. She had a long recovery but is doing well now.


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## bsms

Bought a truck:






Unlike my 2008 F-150 6 cylinder, this one can tow 10,100 lbs. Unlike my F-150, it was NOT $13,000 out the door! The Costco price on this model was $500 below MSRP, which on the current market is as good I as could really hope for. The local dealer has such limited supply that they require an Arizona driver's license to buy. They were getting buyers from California and they decided the only way to keep any stock for repeat customers was to limit purchases to Arizona residents. Even so, they only expect to get a dozen or so more in before the 2022 models start. And the next year models will abandon the big V8 approach to meet government gas mileage standards. Twin turbo-charged V6 will be the only engine. For bulletproof reliability, I prefer a very well tested big V8 that loafs along. Maybe I'll be wrong, but...

I doubt I'll ever break towing 7500 with it. I want to get a small stock trailer but that will probably be next spring at the earliest. And a two horse size will be enough, regardless of Trooper's issues. Trooper is putting on weight, but he's starting to have colic almost weekly after never having had it for the 13 years we've owned him. My wife thinks she can feel some lumps in his neck. That would be in line with many of his siblings, now dead from cancer. We're doing what we can and will see. Maybe she is wrong. Or maybe he'll reach a point where we'll need to end things. It remains to be seen.

But I don't foresee needing to transport more than 2 horses at one time, and a two horse trailer with 2 sub-1,000 lb horses won't be over 6,000 lbs. Probably less. We also want to start renting a camp trailer sometimes, but a 20-25' trailer won't come close to 7,500 lbs. Probably 6K or less, according to the Internet. So 10K towing capacity should be well over my need. The 2008 F-150's 3600 lb max tow weight (as configured) wasn't going to do the job. This one will suck fuel, but Lord willing it will be the last truck we'll ever need to buy.

Not much room for hay in the back, but I'm finding our little utility trailer does a wonderful job at hauling hay (or yard waste, to the dump). Easier to load and unload. I think it is very likely we'll be in this house for at least 2 more years and maybe longer. If I could tow 2 horses to the Chiricahua Mountains a half-dozen times a year, it would help me put up with living so close to Tucson. And if we could take a trailer to central Utah once a year, and maybe go camping at Mt Graham sometimes.....


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## Knave

Congratulations!!!


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## gottatrot

Very nice truck!! It's nice to be able to basically tow anything you might need to.

Sad about Trooper, I know you'll make the right decisions for him.


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## whisperbaby22

Yea, nice truck, I'm hearing that this chip problem may last for another year, maybe more, so I'm glad you got this one.


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## bsms

I'm worried that prices won't come down much even a year from now, @whisperbaby22. To meet average mpg requirements (government), manufacturers are being forced to make more exotic trucks - like going to a double turbocharged V6 in the Tundra, with some being hybrid as well. More aluminum, etc. Chevy has a feature that kills the engine when you come to a stop light, and then restarts it. Saves gas in government tests but.... 😕 

So yes, I'm glad I got this one. I've also been doing some research on trailer weights. These two websites give both generalities and specific model weights:









Average Horse Trailer Weights (with Examples)


he weight of your horse trailer will be one of the main factors in the size of towing vehicle needed. Read on to learn more about horse trailer weights.




www.helpfulhorsehints.com













Horse Trailer Weights by the Numbers (77 Types & Models)


Learn how horse trailer weight impacts your “rig equation” and get important weight information for 77 popular brands and models.




horserookie.com





What surprised me was that bumper pull three horse trailers are almost all under 4,000 lbs empty. My three horses would then put me < 7,000 lbs. With 2 horses max (and the only time I'd load all three would be if we bought a house in Utah), I'd be under 6,000 lbs. That is good news because it means I can look for a 3 horse trailer. Even a stock trailer that can hold 3-4 horses. And still not come close to maxing out the truck! The two horse trailers around here are few and far between and mostly in poor shape unless new. Bandit would load easily into a 3 horse. He doesn't mind entering but he'll leave his rear feet outside with my current (used to store hay) two horse trailer. He would need to push up against the front edge with his chest to fit in. And....he doesn't think that is reasonable. But I'd bet he'd enter a 3 horse in nothing flat, particularly if there was some chow waiting for him at the far end!

If I could take him even 5 miles from here, the trails would be entirely different.


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## bsms

This is part of what I'm worried about. Heard about it on the radio driving home from our vacation. China has a top down economy. When the people at the top set goals in one area, they don't worry much about the impact elsewhere. It is one of the reasons, IMHO, a top down economy cannot - over the long haul - out produce a free one. Anyways, they pointed out certain provinces in China were burning more coal than allotted, and producing more smoke than allowed. Depending on the province, they were ordered to go from 6 days a week of production to either 4 days...or TWO. 

"_When you get into your car in the morning, you probably aren’t thinking about what materials actually go into its construction...Now, it may have an impact on the entire industry. A global shortage of magnesium could result in a near-total shutdown of the auto industry — one that experts say could come by the end of this year....

Essentially, you can’t make cars without aluminum. You can’t work with aluminum without using magnesium. And as of December, you may not be able to work with magnesium much — if at all. Amos Fletcher, analyst for Barclays, put it succinctly: “If magnesium supply stops, the entire auto industry will potentially be forced to stop.”...

China is also the world’s primary supplier of magnesium — 85% of the world’s supply comes from the country. The most prevalent magnesium-producing town in China, Yulin, just ordered 35 of its 50 production facilities to shut down. The remaining 15 have been told to scale back operations by half, leaving production drastically reduced..._".


https://jalopnik.com/the-car-shortage-is-about-to-get-a-whole-lot-worse-1847892481



I worry that our "supply chain" problems are long-term and systemic. Heck, I'm assuming no one bans the sale of gas in the next 10 years....

AND, most of our hay in Arizona comes from California. By truck. It seems by regulation about half of all truckers in the USA are now banned from operating in California. I'm hoping THAT supply chain doesn't break or I'll have dead horses! But I'm betting hay in Arizona is going to go up in price.

BTW - We're now starting to think Trooper's colic issues may be due to a hoof supplement I've been giving him for a long time hoof crack. We're experimenting, hoping it isn't throat cancer. Fingers crossed, but it is looking like there is a correlation between giving him supplement and issues of colic. The other two horses have no problems. But they are a BLM mustang and a half-mustang, and mustangs seem to have tough guts. Anyone who can eat dried tumbleweeds and smile... 🙄


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## whisperbaby22

I'm in So Cal, first in line in the supply chain, supposedly. I'm having problems here getting stuff. I don't see this going away soon.


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## bsms

Hadn't ridden in a while, for a variety of reasons. Took Bandit out today. First half of the ride he was on pins and needles. Just acting very nervous. When we entered the wash, he balked. Did NOT want to move forward. We did some figure 8s. Nothing. Then as I stared where he was worried, I saw movement. A very large snake under some dead branches at the side of the wash, about 100 feet away. My guess was a Common Kingsnake:






Possibly a rattler, but I think it was genuinely very dark and not just that way from shade. Still, I'm in favor of a horse saying, "_Large snake ahead! That is soooo not me!_" So I turned him and insisted we WALK back, out of the wash. We detoured around and he was still nervous when I wanted to descend back into the wash. It was a steep spot with lots of rocks, so I dismounted and led him. First time I've done that in ages. Once we were in the wash, I turned him to see the spot where the snake had been, now "behind us". Then got back on and kept him at a walk. We got to where he'd need to cross a newly resurfaced road. He had no issues, so I turned him home. We normally run that section of trail, but I kept patting his neck and telling him to keep it easy and we walked the entire way back.

Good news? By the last 25% of our ride, he was mellow. We rode home on pavement. Unlike going out, on the return he strolled, acting like he didn't have a care in the world. End of ride, he was sweaty. Even his chest was wet with sweat and we had done almost no speed work and it was in the low 80s, sunny but with a pleasant breeze. Think the sweat was nerves.

But we lived, he was relaxed by the end, and I think tomorrow will go better. A ride doesn't need to go smooth and easy for it to be a good ride, overall.


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## Knave

I know I’ve told this story before, but when I was young I decided to prove I could catch a rattlesnake. I eventually got it caught, and I tried to step onto my mare when that snake rattled. She was all, “oh heck no,” and I don’t know how I managed to stay on my feet as she tore my foot out of the stirrup and took a jump to the side. Dancing and prancing, I didn’t lose her, but I lost my grip on the snake. He reached around to bite me and I threw him.

Well, I threw him directly at the girl who was with me, who also was like, “oh heck no!,”and managed to get out of the way. So, I killed the snake and took him home to prove it (although I don’t know how a dead snake proved I’d caught him alive, but you can already see my reasoning wasn’t wonderful.).

I was in a lot of trouble. I wasn’t supposed to play with snakes anymore. I never held it against the mare; telling me no was the obvious smart decision. I think sometimes she rightfully wondered at my intelligence.


----------



## bsms

Rode today with winds at 20G30. I generally avoid windy days but we have a LOT of them. Often worse than today. And I would ride a lot more if Bandit would learn it was no big deal. Tried it yesterday afternoon in my leather saddle and with Bandit wearing boots, but decided I wasn't as secure in that saddle and Bandit not as steady in boots so gave it up. Today, it was in the Abetta (with sheepskin) and Bandit was barefoot.

Bandit was...elevated. He kept moving but he wasn't a happy horse. At the halfway mark, we came upon a woman jogging down a street with a baby stroller. The trail forms a T intersection with the road and I had planned to turn back at the pavement. So we almost got there. We were in the desert 50 feet to one side of her. Bandit didn't lose his mind but he couldn't handle standing still. So we did figure 8s, back and forth, parallel to the woman, who stopped to adjust the stroller. And no, the woman had no idea we were there. 50 feet away, a horse dancing in figure 8s, me on top, nothing between us...and she had no idea. I tried shouting hello thinking her reply would let Bandit know she was human, but I guess the wind prevented her from hearing. How can you miss a horse and rider doing figure 8s parallel to you just 50 feet away?

She moved on and I turned him home. He decided to canter, which wasn't cool IMHO. He then did fifty yards of crow-hopping canter before I got him to slow. Yeah, I had one hand on the horn because I'm not a great rider and it is easier to stay on a crow-hopping canter that way. Got him slowed but not calm. Moved him off trail and trying to avoid cactus got his brain focused. On the whole, he seemed better on the second half.

Near the end, I dismounted to walk him thru the neighborhood since spooks on paved road are not my thing. He acted pretty calm, but then...a minute from the house, he leaped sideways with his eyes bulging out. And there was...nothing. Not that I could see. The wind was too strong to hear much. I called him stupid and his look suggested he thought of a sentence that had a word with M & F in it. A minute from home.

My rancher friend says a horse isn't truly broke until he's been ridden to exhaustion a few days in a row. Maybe 7-10 days in a row, enough to cause weight loss. 10-12 hours a day of hard work, grinding him down. And then, he says, a horse stops worrying and becomes truly broke. That will certainly never happen with me and Bandit, but I'd admit we could get past the wind thing really quick if riding him for 10 hours in it could happen. But it won't. Too much boredom for me and no water for him.


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## gottatrot

Sounds like some wild times!

I would not be surprised if I was killed by a horse accident involving a baby stroller, LOL.
The problem is that so many horses think there is a devil baby inside.





Horses are so interesting. They'll be in their field with the winds blasting around them, and be fine. But take them two feet outside the fence, and suddenly those winds are portents of disaster. I think I understand logically...the wind impairs their senses of scent and sound, which means they know things could sneak up on them. It's still hard to be patient when they're spooking and hopping around. Mine have improved with lots of experience, because if you didn't take horses out in the wind around here you'd miss out on a lot of rides. But it's still more dangerous to ride on a windy day, regardless. 

I think what your rancher friend says is true for horses of a certain persuasion. It helps horses to understand when you take them out they may be working very hard and need to conserve their energy. But it doesn't guarantee a horse will be broke forever. Meaning, I've ridden horses hard for several days in a row, and they end up thinking they need to focus hard on the work. Yes, Halla and Nala galloping in a strong wind off and on for several hours would be two focused and unlikely to spook mares. Take them out three days in a row and work them hard, and on day four they would be perfect angels. We used to find it remarkable.

But now give them two weeks off and ride them out in a strong wind again, and they'll be likely to be hot and spooky again. So I guess I've made horses broke/broke by riding them for several months straight, and then they've become "unbroke" again. Some horses learn lessons "for good," and some horses learn lessons temporarily I guess. IMHO.


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## TrainedByMares

Well said, @gottatrot . I think you are absolutely right. When I got into horses, I realized why people were so excited when the automobile was invented!


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## bsms

Intermittent fasting for horses?

Over my years of playing with my diet, I've become more of an "intermittent fasting" person than a keto person. I use keto-ish foods because it makes it easier for me to go 18-20 hours without eating and keeping my intake within a 6 hour window. Sometimes OMAD - One Meal A Day. There is good evidence it can reverse insulin resistance and in my own life...my weight has stalled around 155 but my belly fat is VERY gradually continuing to decline. Least now that I can ever remember although there is still ample there!

Lots of horse issues also involve insulin resistance. And while I was never pre-diabetic, intermittent fasting seems to cause slow but important changes in my body. So...what about horses?

"_The capacity of the stomach of the horse is only about 8-15 litres (eight quarts or two gallons), which makes it difficult to understand how a horse can consume large amounts of food or water. The emptying time of the stomach after filling can be about 12 minutes, and the rate of passage down the small intestine is about 1 ft/min. The net result is that food can go from the mouth to the cecum in about 1½ hours. The small volume of the stomach and rapid passage of food from the stomach is the reason horses eat almost continuously, thus the name "hay burners." The rate of passage of pelleted or wafered hay is faster than for loose hay._"





__





Equine Digestive Tract Structure and Function


OMAF Livestock



www.omafra.gov.on.ca





I've always read horses need to eat 20 hours a day because otherwise the acid in their stomach will cause ulcers. But I've also noticed my horses are doing fine even though they go 12-13 hours between evening and morning meals, and two of their three meals each day are now soaked pellets - which they eat in 30 minutes and which probably leave their stomach within an hour tops. I've also noticed sports horses seem to have more ulcers than trail horses (in the studies I've seen) and my suspicion is that horses find competition stressful. Also that sports horses kept in stalls and fed grain...well...how can that be right? So if one studies ulcers in race horses and high level dressage horses...is that applicable to my three laid-back geldings?

One analogy I like with humans is that, like most animals, *we were designed (or evolved) to gain weight in summer and lose it in winter, but that now Americans live in a dietary perpetual summer*. Which is true of our horses as well. Looking around the net, I found this speculation:

_"*In the annual life cycle, most animals take a break from eating sugar during winter.* This allows for the cell to destroy all the parts within the cell that are no longer functioning as well as the debris of energy production (free radicals). This is called autophagy and apoptosis and is equivalent to spring cleaning of a house. Following this is the creation of fresh parts including new mitochondria for more efficient energy production in a pollution free environment. Additionally, the stress of not having an abundant source of food causes a stress on the cells called hormesis where the weak cells die and the stronger cells thrive. In the deep, dark recesses of the lining of the gut live an abundant supply of stem cells and special bacteria that during this fast supply a fresh supply of gut cells and copious amounts of protective mucous that lines the entire bowel. In humans it has been shown that 16 to 18 hours of not eating in a 24 hour period mimics this seasonal fasting and has abundant benefits. In horses we have always believed that food should be available 24/7. They have no gall bladder for storing bile and their stomach acid is said to be secreted constantly. *We all seem to live in fear of gastric ulcers caused by acid overfilling the stomach. Yet in the wild horses don’t have access to last year’s summer grass (hay) throughout the winter.* It is my belief that carbohydrate dependency is at the root of many problems in our horses. Working horses for years went without food for 8 or more hours as they carried people across the country or plowed the field. When they did eat the sugars went to restoring the glycogen used in carrying their loads across the land. I believe that intermittent fasting should be researched and implemented in horses with equine metabolic syndrome and insulin resistance rather than starving or muzzling the horse which raises cortisol."






Feeding Horses – The Frequently Asked Questions


It has been several years since I introduced the no grain challenge and the idea of chronic protein deficiency. Since this time I have been swamped by questions from around the world and many of…




web.archive.org




_
It arguably is not natural for horses to eat continuously 12 months of a year. Winter, drought, etc means horses WOULD literally starve sometimes - for days or even for weeks. Same as humans. Unlike the quote above, I *don't* think it involves carbohydrate dependency. Certainly not in grass hay type horses! But does the "_horses need to graze 24/7_" approach set up some horses (just like SOME humans) for insulin resistance? And is it TRUE that horses suffer from having their stomachs empty for a few hours (or much more) a day? I read online that it is horrible to leave a horse without food for even 4 hours...but that seems unsupportable given how wild horses need to live during winter or drought.

I'm not changing what I'm doing (for me AND my horses) because it is working. If 12-13 hours without food in their bellies hurts them, they are hiding it well. But has anyone even considered horses and periodic fasting - either for hours or, as some advocate with humans, for a day a week? Has anyone seen any studies or had horses who went for a time effectively fasting?

BTW - most of Trooper's colic issues seem to be rooted in 1) dry pellets irritating his throat and 2) a biotin hoof supplement I bought in an attempt to help the perpetual crack in his front left hoof. The supplement doesn't bother Bandit or Cowboy but Trooper cannot tolerate it. Even 1/4 oz means he'll colic in 12 hours.


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## gottatrot

That is all very interesting. Something that comes to mind with the biotin is that it's a B vitamin, and those are produced by gut bacteria. B vitamins are known to have a side effect of stomach upset in some humans. A healthy gut is supposed to be able to produce enough B vitamins on its own. I've always guessed that horses that have their hooves improved by biotin have an issue with their intestinal health. For example, Hero's hooves improved with biotin when I first got him, and he also bit at his girth so I suspected he had ulcers and treated him. Quite possibly Trooper already makes enough biotin, and with a supplement he's getting more than he can tolerate? 

I would think this subject could make an interesting thread, if you were inclined to repost it. 

What I've found is that when the only barn situations I could find involved my horses being in at night for 12 hours and going without food for a few hours, I did not have issues with colic and did not suspect the horses had ulcers. I've come to believe in recent years that a big reason sports horses have ulcers is because they do something horses never do in nature, which is sustained exercise on an empty stomach. I wonder how that lines up with horses that worked all day in the past. Did they stop to give feeding breaks when horses were working?

But most horses that I've known with ulcers were being fed grain and/or had recently had a major diet change or been through a stressful situation.

Over the years, I've been in a few barns that fed horses only twice a day, even if the horses were kept in stalls for a few days at a time. I can count the cases of colic I heard of in those situations on one hand. Of those cases, I know at least two were torsion colics where the horse rolled in turnout and the intestines got twisted. After I moved to barns where horses were turned out and had grazing 24/7, horses seemed to have colic as frequently. 

Something I've also wondered is why people prioritize the risk of ulcers as a higher concern over the risk of laminitis. I've known many horses with ulcers and it was not a life threatening or long term health threatening problem. Most horses I've known that had laminitis at least had their hoof health compromised for many months, even with full recovery after. That was best case scenario. Worst case means permanent crippling or death. Yet I feel like it is preached to never let a horse go without food to the point where people have these obese horses and they're afraid to take away any food. 

I know several horses that hobble around and I'm sure their gut health is fantastic because their owners believe feeding "low quality" hay along with pasture is important. Are you surprised that both of these horses have had issues with chronic laminitis?


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## Knave

We feed once a day, usually at night, depending on our work schedule, because during summer when they are not working early we move to morning feedings because of the wind. The hay seems to last for about 12-14 hours, and they do not eat in between. The horses are healthy, not too fat, and almost no issues of colic.

I do believe Lucy has been trying to sluff her colt, and not colicking. Without working I think she will be fine. I had one horse colick, the General, at one point, and Charlie colicked once and Beamer once. This is very few episodes of colic in the amount of time we have owned horses.

Dad had one who would colic often after work, and trot himself around until he felt better.


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## bsms

"_Gastric, or stomach, ulcers are sores that form on the stomach lining. They are common in horses, with the *prevalence estimated between 50 and 90%*. They can affect any horse at any age but occur *most frequently in horses that perform athletic activities* such as racing, endurance, and showing. Researchers have found that exercise increases gastric acid production and decreases blood flow to the GI tract....

In a natural, high-roughage diet, the acid is buffered by both feed and saliva. When horses are fed two times per day, which is common in many boarding situations, the stomach is subjected to a prolonged period without feed to neutralize the acid. In addition, high-grain diets produce volatile fatty acids that can also contribute to the development of ulcers. Physical and environmental stressors such as transport stress and stall confinement are additional risk factors...

*The majority of horses with gastric ulcers do not show outward clinical signs and can appear completely healthy.*_"









Equine Gastric Ulcer Syndrome


What are gastric ulcers? Takeaways Gastric ulcers in horses are common and clinical signs may be subtle. Treatment should include management modifications. Preventative treatment may be a good option for performance horses that are going to be transported or stabled in a new...




ceh.vetmed.ucdavis.edu





"_In another study, horses fed alfalfa hay had significantly less acidity and lower gastric ulcer scores, than horses fed bromegrass hay. High protein (21 percent) and calcium concentration in alfalfa hay provides buffering of stomach acid up to five hours after feeding....In adult horses, *the prevalence of gastric ulcers is high in the performance horse* and may be due to prolonged exposure of acid to the squamous mucosa. The mechanical aspects of exercise and the abdominal pressure may be sufficient to provide prolonged exposure of the non-glandular mucosa to aggressive factors. Furthermore, especially in racehorses that perform at near maximal levels, exercise may have an inhibitory effect on gastric emptying...*Since performance horses are fed diets that are high in fermentable carbohydrates*, VFAs, generated by resident bacteria, may cause acid injury and ulceration in the squamous mucosa._"





__





Equine Gastric Ulcer Syndrome | AAEP


<p class="p1">By Frank M. Andrews, DVM, MS, DACVIM</p><p class="p1">Gastric ulcer disease is common in foals and horses and the term Equine Gastric Ulcer Syndrome (EGUS) has been used to describe this disease because of its many causes and complicated nature.




aaep.org





"_The overall prevalence of EGUS in the wild equids was found to be 64%, with Grant’s zebras and Hartmann’s mountain zebra having the highest incidence at 83% and 100% respectively. The Hartmann’s zebras were stalled every evening out of social herd contact, which is a departure from the typical living arrangement of wild equids (i.e., outside full-time and within a herd).

The highest incidence of EGUS was observed in equids living in the smaller containment enclosures, especially those less than 75 square meters. *There was no association between digestive tract disease and EGUS*._"









Prevalence of Equine Gastric Ulcer Syndrome (EGUS) in Wild Equids


Stress, confinement and other management practices seem to be variables that increase the risk of EGUS in wild equids, similar to what is found in domestic horses.




equimanagement.com





I recently came across the statistic that 98% of Americans were deficient in potassium, although usually without symptoms. Hmmmm...if 98% of a population isn't eating enough of X, and they have no symptoms, why would someone believe that X amount of something is needed?

Could it be that horses simply accept getting low grade ulcers as simpler than having a mechanism for turning acid production of and on? It obviously isn't something they choose, but could selection (or God) have picked horses who can't turn off acid production because the consequences ("_The majority of horses...do not show outward clinical signs"_) are insignificant?

I've long since concluded a lot of riding theory is based on artificial human myths because when I try them with my own horses (and own body), they don't work. My delving into Keto & Intermittent Fasting has convinced me government guidelines approved by "experts" are largely responsible for my DECADES of yo-yo and ineffective diets, and that the epidemic of obesity - killing people every day - is rooted in widely accepted and government endorsed - but completely faulty - dieting advice.








This is from an article on Total Cholesterol and mortality (Total cholesterol and all-cause mortality by sex and age: a prospective cohort study among 12.8 million adults - Scientific Reports). Notice where the sweet spot is - from roughly 200-250. Yet my wife and I have both had doctors tell us to consider statins because our total cholesterol was over 190! Yes, reducing total cholesterol below 200 is ASSOCIATED with fewer strokes, but also with higher rates of cancer. So just why would I consider taking a medicine with a lot of bad side effects to get my TC even lower than 195? Are deaths from cancer preferable to deaths from heart attacks or stroke? BTW, my wife took the statins for a month. Then she quit due to pain in her shoulder that took a year to go away. A doctor would have to tie her down to get her to take a statin again!

This article indicates insulin resistance in horses functions much like it does in humans. Insulin tends to STORE fat. And then you want to eat more because the insulin-stored fat is very hard to access. You can't get to it merely because you need some. It takes more drastic measures to first restore sensitivity to insulin.









Understanding Equine Metabolic Syndrome


This serious disorder means a major lifestyle change for affected horses.




practicalhorsemanmag.com





This is a video on humans and I think it describes what I've experienced during the last 3+ years very well:






A lot of folks are concluding Type 2 diabetes and insulin resistance in humans is a curable disease. I eat far less now than I did 5 years ago because A) I know a hunger pang is trivial, and B) *I don't feel hunger pangs like I used to*. What I'm doing now isn't so much a "diet" as it is eating less because I don't want to eat more!

Could IR resistance in horses be handled by some form of intermittent fasting? Probably not "fasting" so much as periods of time with very reduced low sugar feed - such as horses pawing for dried grass below the snow would get. Humans seem to get much of the benefit from going just 16+ hours without food - imagine that, not eating for an entire 16+ hours?! How many humans in the 1800s were always able to eat 3+ meals a day?

I don't know about how it would affect horses, but it seems like a fertile area for research! And yeah, I no longer feel guilty about my horses going 12-13 hours a day without food in their tummies. They're showing no signs of trouble and the three of them have a low stress life.


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## bsms

Couple of old photos. Downloaded them from this news article:








Life on Frontier after Battle of Alamo revealed in color photographs


The hand-coloured photo slides, taken in the time of Billy the Kid and Jesse James, show the realities of life among gunslingers and bandits in their Stetson hats.




www.dailymail.co.uk




Cropped them so my photo program could adjust the color and bring out more detail. From sometime in the 1870s in Texas:






That was the standard posed riding position. Not sure if it was also used in riding all the time or not.






Liked the kids, particularly the one sitting backwards!


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## carshon

@bsms you should join the EICR forum for horses with PPID and IR. Although intermittent fasting is not recommeded for horses (this is not how their GI tract works) they absolutely advocate for very small low sugar meals throughout the day or a very slow feeder so the horse does have to paw and work for what they eat. Horses are meant to be grazers and many people associate this with large mouthfuls of lush grass when in reality it is small nibbles of coarse forage a few steps and more nibbles. I have an IR horse and she is monitored closely. She gets no grains at all and is eating out a very small holed slow feeder. She can nibble to her hearts content. She has lost weight, gained energy seems very content and is not grabby when her nets are refilled. Humans have programmed horses to eat large meals and leave them sit for hours and its not natural or healthy


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## bsms

Intermittent fasting can take two forms. One is what some now prefer to call "time restricted eating", referring to eating your meals inside a short window. That is what I do, trying to do my eating between noon and 6 pm. The other way is to skip eating for a day, maybe once or twice a week. I don't do that myself. But with a horse....I assume they are like deer. In the summer, deer eat a lot and gain weight. In the winter, there isn't enough food so they lose weight. I know in Utah, a deer in the spring is often bony from the weight loss. Or die from starvation during the winter!

If horses evolved like deer, then maybe they sometimes need a "winter" of not enough food causing genuine weight loss. Or, like deer, maybe they need days where there isn't much of anything to eat. Maybe that would reset their insulin.

And just like some people never develop insulin resistance, some horses (my horses or my sister!) do not. Those horses/people would not benefit from any kind of fasting.

Gary Taubes argues that with humans, insulin and a few other hormones drives our eating. We aren't fat because we eat too much, but we eat too much because our hormones drive us to. Low carb and fasting are a way of resetting our insulin production (over time, maybe over several years) so that we won't WANT to eat as much. In a sense, he argues we aren't fat because we eat too much, but eat too much because we are fat!

That meshes with my experience. I probably now eat half the calories I was eating 3-4 years ago - _and that is fine!_ I don't _want_ to eat much more. Well, maybe a little...and that will be something for me to deal with the rest of my life. But mostly I'm happy eating far less.

I don't see how that is different with horses. The big problem with the modern American diet is that it is always summer, never winter. And we can do that with our horses as well, and many horses can handle it. But maybe some horses are like me and cannot, and then their hormones drive them to overeat.



carshon said:


> they absolutely advocate for very small low sugar meals throughout the day


That is what the American Diabetes Association recommends. I saw this video recently and it is part of what got me thinking about recommendations for horses too:


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## bsms

BTW, *I am NOT trying to tell anyone who has an IR horse how to manage their horse!* I don't have the issue (with horses) and I have a dry lot corral and no pasture. So a very different situation for me. But I think vets are a bit like doctors and fail to appreciate just how much eating habits can affect things we assume are unrelated. 

Doctors seem to think about drugs and surgery first and assume dieting won't work anyways. And dieting DIDN'T work for me when I dieted following US government advice. And advice from places like the Mayo Clinic or other "reputable" dieticians. My son is overweight and IR and following the diet advice he gets from the VA - which is the same sort of advice that failed me for decades. It is failing him now but he trusts them because "they are doctors" - and I'm only a guy who, after 50+ years of struggling with weight, finally found something that worked!


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## bsms

A little off topic, but here is another bit of eating advice that has worked well for me the last couple of months. Obviously NOT applicable to horses! But it is hard to go low carb AND keep up a "good" fiber intake so I used supplements. Looking into it, though, the evidence seemed....questionable...so I tried going with my almost no fiber keto diet and...it works. Better than it "worked" for me before. After all, as one person put it, if insoluble fiber is essential, WHY DOES OUR BODY FLUSH IT ALL OUT? Again, calling into question normally accepted truths:


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## whisperbaby22

I don't have any dietary restrictions, but I do my version of the intermittent thing, I eat dinner early and then only herbal tea. I've tried various diets over the years, strictly for health, and I've been on this for years and probably will stick with it.


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## bsms

My wife's variation on Keto is that she'll eat her fruit and veggies in one meal a day. Her second meal is usually no-carb and small. That should be enough, I think, to improve the body's insulin sensitivity. In any case, she's losing about 3 lbs a month and is happy to live that way.


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## gottatrot

I do think that even though horses' digestive systems are made for trickle feeding, they also tolerate and perhaps even benefit from periods of plenty and scarcity. 

Obviously when there is drought or heavy snow or stormy weather, horses go without food or hunker down for many hours. In a fertile summer they also happen upon lush meadows and gorge for a while.


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## bsms

Wrote this on another thread:


bsms said:


> Mia got to where she could be ridden on a loose rein. Bandit - after 6.5 years - doesn't ride well with a lot of slack. Snaffle or curb, he wants to feel SOMETHING. He's ridden with a little slack but any fast riding means some contact is needed. He was used in relay races before I owned him. They gave him his head when they wanted him to run flat out. Maybe he still understands it that way. I don't think he'll ever be "cured". He's quite willing to take control of a ride and we had a big argument over it just a couple of rides ago - after over 6 years together.


A few days back, I got in a good run for me - 3.5 miles at an 8 minute a mile pace. Best I've done since I was hurt in 2009, back when I could comfortably do 5 miles at a 7:30 pace. The run tired me out but I hadn't ridden Bandit for a while (life kept interfering, along with weather). So I thought I'd ride him in the arena. Except I was bored after a few minutes, even with my mp3 player playing in one ear, so we went out on the trails. Bandit was reluctant, to say the least. He fussed a lot. Trooper squealing like he was dying didn't help. Even my ears could hear him from some distance so our neighbors may have been unhappy too.

We did get some good moments in. About halfway thru, he seemed to settle. No one is out there so I sometimes sing along with the mp3 player and we got in a nice canter, comfortably quick but not excessively so, while I was in a half seat (or 3/4 seat), singing along, one hand on the reins. It felt GOOD. So of course, just a few minutes later, cantering in the wash, Bandit decided to take over. There was a shortcut home that would require a 90 degree turn in deep sand and rocks which I didn't want to take at a canter, but Bandit didn't agree. I was kind of surprised and we did a little bucking practice, ending with him stopped and half his body on the shortcut. 

I pulled hard and got him off the shortcut, turned him back....and a Charlie Horse forced me to dismount and lead him back part way. I shortened the stirrups. That's rare for me when I expect trouble, but I've started using the old 15" Abetta we had stored away in stead of my 16 inch one and the stirrup setting I used on the 16 inch seems longer when on the 15 inch.

Anyways, we once again headed down the wash, cantering toward the shortcut. I had stuck my left arm out, shortening the reins without pulling on them, and had my right hand on the horn. When I told him to slow, and he told me to go to [expletive deleted], and I told him "Now!" and he said, "Eff U!" and bucked...I jerked his head up HARD, leveraging against the horn. Good thing he isn't a rearing horse. His head came up far enough that I probably could have bit him on the ears too - but I didn't. Still, his bucking stopped. Then started as I began to release, so we did it again. Then walked a couple of steps closer to the shortcut and I TOLD HIM TO TURN INTO THE SHORTCUT.

"Oh, you MEANT to go this way?"

"Yes, you stupid [multiple expletives deleted]!"

He was pretty sweaty at the end, mostly from emotion. I skipped riding the next day because my back was way too tired.

Rode yesterday with a curb bit. We did a couple of brief canters but I insisted on doing most of it at a walk. I think he kind of enjoys cantering but also kind of worries about it. I need to find a balance there. We kind of wandered around, on and off trail for a while. Returning back, I let him canter to the top of the hill overlooking the neighborhood. Then he slammed on the brakes because on the other side of the hill, a neighbor was walking his dog. We skirted around them, Bandit prancing, and I explained that Bandit had seen dogs thousands of times but....

The neighbor doesn't own horses but he may have at one time because he replied, "Horses are fun but they always have a mind of their own!" As if to emphasize it, Bandit did a walk/canter transition - but it WASN'T a bolt, just an acceleration. He kept it up until we were almost at the paved road but slowed as soon as I asked. He also cantered on the pavement up the final hill to the house and I let him, although I asked him to slow before turning onto the property and he did so without complaint.

So...I think Bandit and I get along well most of the time, but there will always be times he decides to take over - and times I need to DEMAND, not just ASK. Happily he doesn't seem to have any concept of rearing and his bucking isn't very hard - more of a tantrum than an attempt to get me off. The washes in the desert are like the Interstates of the desert where you don't have to twist and turn all the time, but they also aren't places where being thrown or falling would be acceptable:






I guess it is something I just need to deal with. I played a little with stirrup length on the 15" saddle yesterday. The shorter setting feels more secure, which is weird for me, but I started getting some knee pain part way thru so I dropped the stirrup and let my leg hang. I'd like to use the shorter setting but may need to work out how to do it without knee pain.

It also affects my position of my foot in the stirrup. At the shorter setting, I feel more confident of the stirrup on my foot and ride with my foot further back. When I drop them a hole, I instinctively shove my feet further in...probably because I can barely keep them on my feet at that length!


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## Knave

Wow, that sounds like one of those rides I dread. It is never fun when it’s a fight day, but I think we all have those occasional days, horses too. I’m sorry it was rough.

I was going to say too, although not to sound bossy, but I would be a bit afraid to lope on the pavement. I mean, you did fine, so maybe you are used to it and Bandit too. I know horses tend to fall on these things though. It is like ice. A barefoot horse of course does much better than one with shoes, so maybe you are fine. I just would be hesitant.


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## bsms

I'm hesitant too. Note: Revised from the original post for a better picture from a government mapping site:








The red line is where I do NOT want him cantering on the road. Too much chance he'll either miss the turn or slip, and the sides include some sharp drops into peoples' yards. Cantering there means he is nervous and not fully thinking right. The blue lines on the pavement are...okay. The top one is climbing fast to the west and the lower line is climbing to the south. Cantering while climbing in those spots is OK to me. Just a few hundred feet and enough hill that he's working hard on a quiet road. Blue dots mark the horse corrals and our little arena.

The green lines in the desert are where the footing is safe for a canter. The big gaps are for rocky ground or places where the trail is sloping steep to one side. The one in the wash is what I call "Canter Heaven", but a better place is actually along the trail coming in from the west (left). The remaining trails/dirt roads are just too rocky or have deep gullies in them - and some of the washes would be dangerous too.

When we head out to the desert, we go along the blue and then on the red to get to the dirt road. There is more riding area to the north and west but didn't fit on the screen. And those aren't good cantering paths either. It look like it was taken at the height of the drought when vegetation was almost non-existent.

I really would prefer no cantering on pavement, but uphill coming home doesn't bother me. Bandit has never tried to race up it. He's been there thousands of times. The neighbors are very "horse-savvy". Even if he left the road, the terrain wouldn't cause a problem. On the red line? He could build up a LOT of speed and would only be cantering out of worry/fear, neither of which is acceptable on pavement. We spent years with me leading him along the road to the desert because of his nerves. Even now, I'm more likely to ride that section on the return than heading out since 80% of our spooks happen during the first 10 minutes of a ride.

And the house just past the turn into the desert? Yesterday it had a 15' tall Santa Claus that the wind had blown onto its side. Bandit wanted nothing to do with "Sleeping Santa". Or "Dead Santa"! But coming home, he was thinking of the dog behind us and we were turned and heading away before he remembered Dead Santa. I was actually proud that he DIDN'T try to flee down the road...

Horses!

Also: I said 80% of our spooks are during the first 10 minutes. But if I ride him in the arena for 30 minutes first, then 80% of our spooks are during the 30-40 minute mark. That's why I don't try lunging him. It is the first 10 minutes in a human neighborhood away from "home". That is also why I got frustrated with people telling me I needed to get Mia spook-proof and responsive in the arena before taking her out. She WAS calm and very responsive IN THE ARENA. *There are no dragons in the arena!* But as soon as you head out? The dragons lurk behind every car and every bush....

Horses!

And in their defense...Who would kill Santa Claus? Particularly an ENORMOUS Santa Claus? And what would such a monster do to a horse? 😝


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## Knave

My neighbors were putting up a Santa in their swather yesterday while I had just tied up Queen and was riding Cash bareback. I wondered what he would think about it, but I was done before Santa came to life. Since he’s driving the swather I don’t figure they will look at him. They do a great job with Christmas decor.

My dad told me a story when I was little, about his brother’s colt running away. He was disgusted when his brother bailed off the colt, and as he asked him why he would do such a thing the colt hit the highway and flipped. He learned the lesson and remembered it.

I did have a mare run away down the street once. Boy was I in trouble when my father came home. The asphalt was fairly new and it was hot outside, so that is likely what saved me. She left tracks in the asphalt for a half mile, when I was able to turn her into a yard and get her shut down. I was in soooo much trouble, especially because I had a hackamore on a runaway’s face.

I just had it pounded into me always, so the idea scares me. Yet, most of our horses have had shoes on. Bones and Zeus are always barefoot, but excepting the winter months most are shoed.


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## bsms

In 2009, after Mia and I had practiced parting company, I asked my rancher friend when he would jump off a horse. He said if it was bolting on pavement, bolting toward traffic, or nearing a cliff. The first time we rode with them trailing sheep, he pointed out their horses had shoes and would be on pavement and asked us if we were Okay with the risk. We were, but it was a reminder that someone who had spent 60 years riding considered riding on pavement a significant added risk factor!

But yes, even without his boots, I get concerned if his canter isn't a smooth, collected canter up the hill. The asphalt is rough which helps to prevent slipping - but it also means I'd lose a LOT of skin if Bandit did slip! At least Bandit always stays thinking. Mia bolted on pavement once and darn near scared the poop out of me! Which would have been reasonable since she was pooping at the time herself!


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## Knave

Little girl is very into road riding right now. Drives me batty, but I do allow her the freedom. Zeus is a pretty intelligent animal though, but we have a lot of semi’s loading hay, and most haul butt.


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## Knave

When she was starting Moon, we had a few moments I made her bail. It took pounding into her head that if I said bail off I mean right in that exact moment. Once her saddle slipped onto the mare’s side, and Moon panicked and bolted, and that saddle was progressing to under her belly, and I kept hollering for her to bail and she stuck in far too long, but did finally listen before the saddle slipped all the way and she would have gotten her face in those feet.

I told her to bale when either Moon or Zeus was first being started and went down, and again she was too late and ended up with a foot stuck in the stirrup and only wasn’t drug from the kindness of the horse.

I bailed on a runaway cart. The cart ended up totaled and the horse pretty banged up.

I have bailed on a rolling saddle too. That was the hottest mare, and she actually stood there shaking from a dead run after I bailed with that saddle under her belly. I was so proud of her.

If I’m in too steep and dangerous conditions I ride ready to bail off. I have bailed on falling horses or stayed on depending on how I felt my balance would effect them and the likelihood of ending up under them.

I think I am like little girl in that at times my reaction to bail off is not fast as it should be…


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## bsms

The Air Force has a strict rule, varying slightly I think with aircraft type. In F-4s and F-111s, if you were out of control below 2,000', you were commanded to bail out. In fact, if you were in an F-111 and in a spin below 15,000 above the ground you were commanded to bail out! And yet, many rode aircraft into the ground. They would get too focused on trying to recover the aircraft. By the end of my career, I realized I was one of those. I'd almost certainly have stayed in a jet until impact, still trying to figure out a way to solve the problem.

I might be that way on a horse. It would be different on open soft ground, but bailing off on a paved road or in a rocky wash? I strongly suspect that if Bandit goes down, I'll go down with him. *Even if I know I should not!*

Note: During the history of the F-111, no F-111 that entered a spin ever recovered without a special spin-recovery chute used in initial testing. The test pilots believed a spin in an F-111 was impossible to fix.


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## bsms

Hill climbing to the west:








Hill almost home:








No one uses this road unless they live on it and the edges don't have anything scary. Ho-Hum! However, if on a paved road just a half-mile from here? SCARY! *Bandit really plans on living forever....*


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## bsms

Hadn't ridden in a while. I was in Georgia to help my youngest move from her dorm room on base to an apartment off base, and then the weather here this last week was less than optimum. I handle heat better than cloudy skies and wind. So for today's ride I thought a quiet ride, no running, no tension....

5 minutes into the ride, Bandit showed signs of concern. I had an mp3 player playing into one ear, but then I picked up the whine of two stroke engines. He helped me spot them, zipping in circles right in an area we needed to go thru to get to the rest of the desert. I decided they might take off up the dirt road we were heading down, with cactus on either side. So I urged Bandit forward to get to a clear area just off the trail where we could do circles ourselves - while keeping an eye on these enormous insects (small ATVs ridden by kids in bright clothing with helmets covering their entire heads).

Bandit was concerned but we were OK. Then one of the giant insects went zipping up the dirt road we had been on. Okay. Then he turned into the clear area we were 'hiding' in. From Bandit's perspective, that was a deliberate and direct attempt to attack him! There wasn't really a good place to run TO, so we started spinning around. Happily, Bandit being Bandit, he did NOT spin us into cactus or drop us into the nearby wash. But he wanted to MOVE and there was no good place to move TO, so I kept trying to un-turn him - or turn him to keep him from taking off. Kind of a bouncy, back and forth, "We're not running away and there isn't anywhere to go" kind of thing. 

I started yelling at Bandit, and finally the kid on the ATV heard me. I'm pretty sure it was one of two brothers from the neighborhood. Good kids, but like almost everyone on an ATV, he doesn't see or notice ANYTHING - even a horse and rider spinning around 30 feet from him! Once he did, he stopped gunning his engine and, as quietly as he could, turned and moved over to the dirt road. There was no maliciousness. They were just having fun and...people on ATVs are some of the most UNAWARE people in the world! I'd swear I could spit on someone while on my horse and they would assume it was rain. *How can you miss a guy on top of a spinning horse?*

As he left, Bandit settled. Good news? He then agreed without too much objection to riding further down the dirt road and crossing the area they had just left. He was tense...but cooperated. We rode down into the wash and he THOUGHT there was something suspicious ahead so we took a detour thru a narrow spot that required him to push thru some dry, pokey branches...but he went. 

On the way back home, as he finally started to settle, someone started up an engine in the neighborhood. Bandit kept moving forward but his back turned into an I-beam. I dismounted more for him than for me. The goal had been a quiet, RELAXING ride. Not a "_Can I keep him moving when he's genuinely freaked out_" ride.

So we walked and as I led him back into the neighborhood, I met an old guy walking out into the desert. He asked me why I was leading my horse and I explained. Pointed out the ground was getting harder every year. He laughed and said he was too old to risk a fall with a horse too. Turned out he is a 77 year old rancher from east Texas visiting his daughter for Christmas. 3,000 head of cattle. His sons are doing the vast majority of the work now and he's down to one gelding: "_I can trust him not to do anything stupid and he likes working cows._" Showed me pictures of his horse on his phone. Bandit obviously figured if two old guys could stand there and shoot the breeze for 10 minutes, he was safe. He nibbled weeds. After chatting, the old rancher went for a walk in the desert and I took Bandit home. By that time, Bandit had melted. I could have ridden him but why? I wanted to finish a tough ride with a period of total calm.

BTW - I had accidentally left my stirrups down and didn't bother to bring them back up for the ride, so my legs were almost totally straight to reach the stirrups. Darn certain my heels were NOT down, given it was hard to keep them from coming off. I have no objections to folks who want their heels down, but today's entertainment once again showed a person can stay on a horse just fine, without getting in his mouth, with feet level. I had no fear of falling off, just of Bandit and I both going down - because anywhere Bandit went, I was going too! But I was _straddling_ my horse, not _sitting on_ him. If I had lost my stirrups it wouldn't have changed things much. I confess I get frustrated with many of the often taught universal rules of riding that just don't pan out as being universal, while judged on the basis that you can't be balanced unless you follow a certain look. What really bothers me is the refusal to look at any evidence. "If your feet are homed in the stirrups, you can't get out of them! But if guys doing calf roping and bull dogging ride with feet homed, and repeatedly fling themselves off of running horses...then why don't THEY get caught in their stirrups?














It could be there is a difference in what happens from an English saddle versus western, but if western riders do X all the time, then X must be possible! Oh well. ****ing in the wind I guess. No idea what my feet were doing on today's ride but it was hard enough just keeping the stirrups on my feet....

An hour later my back started to tighten up so Mr Motrin was once again my friend. The dubious joys of getting old.


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## Knave

I’m sorry your ride was rough today! It’s neat about the rancher though.

I kinda faced the same issue on Queen today. Husband was on Cash, and he has this massive problem with shooting. We were getting close to home and the neighbors were target shooting. Luckily it wasn’t a big gun; I assumed a 22 or something of the sort, and he only got mildly edgy. Queen looked around and worried a little, but nothing like Cash would have at her age.

I was laughing to my husband that I didn’t think anyone should be allowed to shoot while I was riding. I never used to worry about it, but Cash REALLY hates a big gun. I’ve had a couple different problems with it, and now I’m half nervous when anyone starts. Of course, they never stop at one shot and a missed coyote… they keep throwing them out there. It’s why I got ran over by him that day.


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## Knave

Truly I just need to start shooting around the horse…


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## knightrider

Knave said:


> Truly I just need to start shooting around the horse…


Yeah, along with the 101 million other things you are expected to do every day. 

Our Red Hot Chili Pepper was terrified of gunshots, although he was bold about everything else. We kept saying for years how we were going to practice shooting far far away from him and steadily get closer. Years went by. We kept putting it off. He died of old age. It's important, but there are so many other important things we have to do . . .


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## TrainedByMares

I started with an unloaded BB gun around Nicki and Jesse,graduating to loaded shooting at nearby targets that would make a bit of noise when hit but would not bounce off. Eventually I was using their bodies as a rest for the gun when shooting. You could work up to bigger calibers . Firing blank rounds may be safer and cheaper.

At our old place, the neighbors would set off quarter sticks,fireworks and shoot big caliber guns. Nicki is no Sgt. Reckless but we were riding near the property line when they blew something up with a quarter stick and she took it in stride.


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## bsms

Bandit hears ATVs/motorcycles all the time. Several neighbors have them. He is 50:50 with them in the desert. There have been days he barely flicked an ear. Others, like yesterday, where he gets really worried. But what "broke" him was when it turned off the dirt road we had left and entered the clear area where we were trying to stay out of the way. He took that as, "*They're coming to get ME!*" - and Bandit wants to live forever!

I can't desensitize him to everything so I've concluded we'll just have days like that. And we survived the first round, and he didn't panic/explode at the second variation of hearing them nearby....just really tense. MAYBE I could have stayed on and ridden him anyways. He wasn't rebelling.

But my goal for the day - since we hadn't ridden for quite a while - was just a relaxed, "see how easy it is" kind of ride. So I think leading him was the right answer. The old rancher didn't act like I was some super wimp or make fun of me. Just "Horses do that sometimes". And since I was on foot I could take the time to talk and look at the photo of his favorite gelding - a pretty grey BTW. Very pretty. I suspect Arabian blood mixed in. Not what I would expect for a big ole rancher from Texas! But a good looking horse. And once we got talking, Bandit obviously decided life was safe and good, so there was that. A ride with a happy ending isn't a bad ride, while pushing him to handle as much as he could may have turned quite bad indeed. The rancher agreed that the ground IS getting harder every year.... 😃

I guess there is a part of me that still feels guilty when I get off and walk my horse. I'm convinced it makes good sense sometimes but I always feel like a failure. After all, don't good riders ride with crops and make sure their horse knows who the Big Boss is? Outside of the HF journals, it seems almost everyone thinks dismounting is admitting defeat, failing in either being dominant enough or being your horse's "Great Leader" who he follows blindly!

But Bandit is NEVER going to follow me blindly. I think he has won a place in my heart, surpassing Mia. That took some doing. He's a funny horse and you never know how a ride will go. He sure as heck will never worship me as some Great Leader. I find it an open question: What is a good horseman? Heck, what is good riding? I suspect my answers are well outside the mainstream. 😒


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## whisperbaby22

Well I have gotten tired of answering questions about why I am hand walking my horse out on the trail. I've done it all my life. When I was kid I would ride for so long that it felt good to get down and walk for a while, and since I like to hike, it was fun to hike along with the horse. In my golden years I ride for a while and walk for a while. It's what makes me feel more physically fit. Now when interrogated about why I am walking I say 
what a great day! and walk on. 

And I do not object to atv's on the trail because I can hear them coming. The park where I ride now allows bicycles, (but not atv's) they come at or behind you and you never know it. If they were more of them the horses would adjust, but because only the wild off roaders do it, it has become a problem.






's


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## Knave

It was always looked down at here to get off and lead a horse, because they said the horse then won the fight. What I have realized is that sometimes it is an easy way to not let the horse win the fight. Queen was ready to fight me about coming home one day, and I knew she was thinking about bucking me off (and that horse can buck), but I just stepped off and led her. Well, she went where I wanted and it ended the fight. Next time she just went.

I won’t step off of Cash, because if he’s honestly worked up he is more dangerous on the ground than his back. I did step off Bones once working because he was throwing a tantrum and it was rocky and steep, and I needed to get to the cows. Well, he proceeded to try and literally jump over me. I guess Bones too worked up is also too worked up to be on the ground with.

The others all wouldn’t do those things with someone on the ground. I’m pretty sure I could lead Queen anywhere I wanted. I really appreciate that I am the person who did her ground work because of that. Sometimes I think I wouldn’t buy a 30 day horse again, considering the issues I had to work through on Bones and Cash.

As far as motorcycles go- Cash loves them. They make his job easier. Queen is petrified of them because she was tormented on the mountain with them. I don’t know how I’ll get around that. Lucky for me, I don’t run into a lot of humans.


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## egrogan

Knave said:


> Truly I just need to start shooting around the horse…


The first place I boarded Izzy was a couple of miles through the woods from an ammunition manufacturing facility. If horses worried about guns when they came, they sure didn’t by the time they moved somewhere else!! Some days it really sounded like cannons going off (not that I’ve ever actually been around a cannon…)

Where we live now lots of people have shooting ranges in their woods, and it seems like hunting season lasts for months, so the horses really don’t seem to care. I still jump every time I’m in the saddle and someone shoots close by though!


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## Knave

@egrogan I do not know why Cash is so dramatic about it. I worry though that he is like this horse called Chagrin. Chagrin HATED gunshots. Even though we used her hunting, the mare was out if someone shot. You had to post her far away and leave someone there to try and keep her or she would just break free.

She even had a phobia of snapping reins. If you snapped your reins on her, you had better be ready for the consequences. Cash also hated snapping reins, but after enough work he tolerates it very unhappily. Chagrin never tolerated it.

I really liked the mare. She worked harder than anyone around, and was cowy and a crazy good athlete. She was blown up as a young horse, so never was she calm by any means, but if you had to cover miles and do it well, she was the way to go.


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## whisperbaby22

I'm thinking now that my comments may have been interpreted as a bit snarky, I was not thinking that the old rancher was being weird, sounds like he just asked to open up a conversation about horses. What I don't like is people who just seem to think walking is not the right thing to do. There is a difference between just starting a conversation and insisting that something is wrong.

This brought to mind an old episode, I was using a bareback pad with breastplate and tied some binoculars on to go to the top of the mountain to look around. The fire road was wide and on only a slight incline, so I decided to get off and jog a bit on the way back. Well I met a group coming up and they were horrified to see me, I slowed to a walk past them saying no, I'm fine and continued jogging. It wasn't until I went to get back on that I realized that the binoculars, without my butt on the pad, has slid that whole pad over and only the breastplate was keeping it from dangling under the horse's belly. Well, maybe those folks had a point, but believe me, if I need help I will ask, same as I help anyone needing it when I am asked.


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## TrainedByMares

Certainly,assessing each situation makes sense. If you feel a dismount is warranted, then do it. Your safety,safety of the horse and others around you are important. We aren't riding into battle...


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## knightrider

I've said this several times before: @egrogan taught me "There is no shame in getting off." Amen.

When I was a kid in 4-H, there was great shame in getting off. We were taught that the horse "wins" if you get off. I remember being 14 years old and thinking, "Yeah, and what if the horse explodes, and you smack it several times, and then it bucks big, and you ride out the bucks, smacking it the whole time. What the horse remembers is that you and it had a miserable time, very angry and upset. Is that winning?" I was just a kid, so I thought maybe I was wrong, but somehow it just didn't feel right. ESPECIALLY those awful times when the horse wouldn't go over a jump, and you whacked and pounded and fought for 20 minutes and finally got the horse over. Was that winning? Seemed more like battling to me . . . and nobody won.

Now I'm old and I can do what I like. But years ago, people started changing their ideas, suggesting you distract the horse, or lower the jump, or find an easier way over the stream, get another horse to go first, etc. Now THAT made sense. And if getting off avoids a fight and results in a pleasant fun ride, then why not? As egrogan said, THERE IS NO SHAME.


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## gottatrot

I guess when I was starting with Amore I got over the "shame" of walking home since she usually could dump me off before I even had a chance to try getting off. After she trained me for a while, I used to dismount so fast, people I was riding with were surprised to see me on the ground. But after a while I began to use more discretion, realizing that with many horses you could ride things out. Still, it used to amuse me that if I ever came walking home people would say "what happened?" assuming I'd fallen off. 

I've been lucky sometimes, having the barn environment train horses for me. Up north, the barn was on a popular bicycle route, and also along the way for the Hood to Coast relay run. So the horses were soon immune to bicycles and vans with screaming people and blowing horns. 

At this barn, several of the neighbors shoot guns in the near vicinity very regularly. I was in the shed with Hero recently when someone shot a gun, and I jumped but he kept eating. Hero also used to rear or bolt if bright headlights or head lamps shone in his eyes. The feed store across the street stays open after dark, and the barn owner and boarders also drive up and down the road near the horses' field after dark. I've noticed that Hero has become much less reactive to light in his eyes, so apparently this is desensitizing him as well.

I stayed out of the "heels down" thread, but found it interesting. I definitely believe there are many kinds of riding that can work, especially with the variety of things we do with horses. Something I've found is that many "gurus" are wrong about some things, which makes sense to me. No one can be an expert in every area of horsemanship. It was particularly enlightening to see Lynn Palm having a riding lesson at the WEG after reading so many of her articles on riding. In the lesson I saw, she was not an effective rider, and needed lots of help from her trainer. Without cueing, she did not manage the horse. People with money and resources can end up looking good in their public image. It is behind the scenes where you might see the real truth. 

Especially I think riders are done a disservice when certain positions are emphasized without discussing the theory or reason behind them. When an instructor says "toes forward," what principle of biomechanics are they attempting to accomplish with the horse and rider? Does the instructor know? It frustrates me when I see riders being told to do things that twist their joints or promote tension and poor body mechanics. If a rider twists their ankle outward, then toes forward might put them into a more balanced and ergonomic position. For many riders, it will accomplish the opposite. I remember how many lessons I had where the instructors emphasized the position of my head, shoulders, back, stomach, arms, hands, toes, knees, etc. Soon I could put those things in the "proper" position, but I left those years of lessons with a seat that could easily be knocked off balance and if a horse darted sideways I'd be left behind. 

It was my friends who taught me on informal rides, with their sharp eyes, what I was doing wrong. They told me I let my lower leg swing back, and that would cause my balance to fall forward. They showed me how to keep the right amount of muscle tension vs relaxation down through my leg, and how to keep a portion of it against the horse's body at all speeds. They told me my arms were tense. They taught me that those who don't respect the awesome power of a horse are fools, and that it's OK to be afraid, but persistence always pays off. Lessons and principles did not teach me how to sit a horse. Experience and wisdom from people who really rode horses did.


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## whisperbaby22

Makes sense.


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## knightrider

This picture is so so awesome!!!  It just embodies everything about a dedicated rider. Everyone looks so comfortable and relaxed and at-one with their horses. In spite of the obvious rain and cold.


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## bsms

Heels down:












__





Sit and Slide Your Way to Prettier Stops


Shane Brown explains how to ride your horse to a perfect sliding stop in reining and rein work patterns. Focus on body position, legs, saying whoa and hands.




www.aqha.com




Heels up:








Heels doing ANYTHING needed at the moment!:








From the linked article:

“_Body position is so important,” Shane says, “but riders skip over it in favor of worrying about their hands or legs. Meanwhile, your body position determines what happens with your hands and legs. Most people don’t think of it in that way.”

Proper body position during the sliding stop involves rolling your hips and bottom backward into the saddle and allowing your upper body to “melt” or “cave” toward your pelvis....

“Those legs have got to come off of that horse,” Shane confirms. “The lower part of our leg has got to come all the way off.

“When our lower leg comes off, a lot of times our thighs will take hold, and that’s OK, as long as we don’t overdo it – as long as we don’t let that tension of hanging on with our thighs end up in our torso – because we don’t want our torso to get stiff.”

Having your legs in a forward position will keep you from being bounced forward in the saddle. You don’t want to end up on your horse’s neck as it stops._"

I love that. It is an explanation for a specific activity that just makes sense. And I like his emphasis on the body determining what the hands and legs will do, and on having SOME tension but also staying loose because stiffness will hurt you! He's not talking "position" as much as how to flow into the saddle in a fast stop - and how body and hands and legs all affect it.

He nails what I finally figured out on Bandit: When he's nervous and might spin, slouch a little - getting my habitually stiff back looser - and just about an inch behind my normal position so my weight will flow into my pelvis instead of rotating above my pelvis. But the point is relaxing and letting my weight flow to where it will help.

*What I would have given to have an instructor who discussed riding like the guy in the article!*


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## Knave

We pound that idea of how to slide into our children. My oldest is a heck of a rider, but she’s just naturally this athlete and has that perfect posture and control in everything she does. Sliding has been difficult for her, and she’s yet to master it. She sits down on her butt and takes her feet off of the horse, but she doesn’t melt. Her posture and way of being isn’t one to melt.

To get the best stops, you are pushing the horse forward, and when you ask him to stop you are with his motion, and as he brings his hind legs under him you melt down into the saddle and your legs come off of him, with the pressure in your stirrups. The smoother you can be, the better he will stop and the longer he will carry it.

One trick my father taught me is to not say “whoa” quickly, but to try and draw it out smoothly and calmly “whooooaaaaaa.” It helps your body to stay smooth and calm.


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## updownrider

Has anyone heard from bsms? He hasn’t posted in a while. I hope he’s okay.


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## ACinATX

updownrider said:


> Has anyone heard from bsms? He hasn’t posted in a while. I hope he’s okay.


I was just today thinking the exact same thing. Then I saw that this thread had been updated, and I thought it was him. But no. Can one of the moderators let us know?


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## egrogan

I too had the same thought this week, and then I stalked his "recent activity stats" in the HF user portal and saw he had viewed and liked a thread recently, so didn't post here. Clearly @bsms, your HF friends are wondering what's going on and hope you are ok! 😉


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## twhvlr

I was wondering too. And also Sue from, I think, Australia?


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## QtrBel

Sue took a reorganizing break. She's been around. Just not posting.


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## bsms

Bandit is doing fine. I had COVID...and am fine. Whole family caught it and the whole family is fine.

I decided to take January off of HF and may make it permanent. I honestly don't know how to milquetoast my opinions down to a level acceptable to the boards rules. One needs to be an adult to post but modern American adults...well, modern America seems to me overly sensitive and unable to distinguish between an attack on an IDEA and an attack on a PERSON.

In "The Frightened Class", Thomas Herrington wrote about how I feel, "_To work in academia, as I have for the last three decades, is to be surrounded by people who truly believe that the words one exchanges with others are as existentially weighty and consequential as physical assaults upon the body. This not only shows how few of them have ever been in a real brawl..._"









The Frightened Class ⋆ Brownstone Institute


They are the most fortunate people who have ever walked the earth, they are very scared. And they want you to be very frightened too.




brownstone.org





I might try posting again in the journal section only. *Or not. It takes the fun out of posting if I have to worry about someone taking offense where none is intended*.


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## egrogan

Hey @bsms, glad to hear Bandit's doing ok, not so glad to hear and your family have been sick.

I hope you don't end up leaving. I suspect you and I are probably two polar opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to current events, but I sort of see you as I do my own father (hope that doesn't sound weird)- we're really never going to agree, but we can at least see the other person is thoughtful and has considered why they have the opinion they do, rather than regurgitating something someone told them to think. I can't claim I'm always calm and mature when it comes to debating about the world, but I really try to be, and I see you and so many others here do as well. I like that the journals meander the ways they do, and I hope you'll continue yours.


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## knightrider

I, also, would be very sorry not to enjoy your journal and things that you write. It's been great having you on the Forum, and I wish you would stay.


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## carshon

I am going to add my voice to the mix. Although we may not agree on some things I have always enjoyed your posts and look forward to seeing other points of view. I think part of the issue is that many are stagnated in their thought processes. I endeavor to be a person that always learns and tries to see many perspectives. It may not change my mind but it may help me better understand how the other person came to feel the way they do. 

Glad your family is OK health wise.


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## gottatrot

Sorry you've all been sick...glad you are feeling better.



















In my opinion, a forum is a place for discussion, debate, and differing opinions. It would certainly not be helpful if any time someone posted a question, one person would give an opinion and then everyone would say "I agree." There is no room for learning and growing if you can't pit your ideas against other people's opinions to see how they hold up under scrutiny.

Sometimes there is no right or wrong, but where you personally stand will be shaped by the discussions you have. Sometimes a person is just plain wrong, and it's certainly healthy to discover that and change your ways. Speaking about myself personally, I have found many things to change in my treatment of horses over the years.

If you stop posting on the forum, it will be detrimental to many discussions. It has been very helpful to me to have your sharp insights on many subjects. It has been a pleasure to disagree with you sometimes, and have the chance to really think about "why" I've believed some things. 

Plus I believe an important way we learn is by stories. This has been true of humanity from ancient times. Any good storyteller is an asset to a community, and you are a good one.


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## ACinATX

I also do not agree with everything you say, but you make your arguments well and I like to read what people I disagree with think, and why. When their arguments are well-written and thoughtful, as yours are.

I feel like, if we only listen to people who believe the same as we do, then what's the point of listening?

And you've definitely influenced me in my own journey as a horse person. I hope you stay.

I'm also glad everyone is OK.


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## SueC

Hiya. My horse died and I've been through a difficult stretch. I've just spent an hour explaining to Bri on PM why I stopped engaging with the forum. It's complicated and some of it probably would not make it through moderation. In short, with the main board I didn't like the pile-ons and the insults that happened regularly when you had a different point of view - like that horses deserve to be respected not bullied (regular minority view here when I joined in 2014, to my astonishment). That was especially bad a few years back, and added to that was my perception that there were double standards with moderation and that some people could insult and condescend rather than debate the topic (and I can link to old example threads of it). Set against that, from my side, is that my tolerance towards generalised disrespect for animals or learners is now zero, and that since the pandemic and the climate crisis coming home to roost, I also have zero tolerance for anti-science and for right-wing conspiracy theories and freedom as in "to hell with everyone else, I get to do what I like" that are now more than ever causing actual harm to people and the planet.

I grew up with an abusive family of origin where truth was twisted regularly and gaslighting was standard. They never acknowledged there was a problem, to this day, and they never will, and they never acknowledged the hurt and harm to me that could have been avoided, and to this day insist that I deserved the physical, verbal and emotional abuse I received from them beginning in very early childhood and still happening when I decided to leave home at 16, aided by my university (where I had just started first year), where I was courtesy of winning a science scholarship. I've come to terms with this and my complex PTSD and have done OK considering, aided by excellent teachers and other warm people in my early years and the village raising the child, plus super connections with animals and nature, and had a productive and useful life anyway, and still have, and have more and more been able to overcome the obvious aftermath emotionally of such an upbringing.

But I do avoid environments when they become detrimental to my wellbeing or there is too much conflict etc, and then find other things to do. Also, after seven years of writing about horses and smallholdings, I've done that topic to death and was already discussing other things that interested me more on my HF journal, including music and mental/emotional health, where by the way I would again like to thank everyone in that group for supporting what I was writing, and supporting me personally. Because of the PG rating and no-go topics I had to move that particular stream of writing to another forum which allowed people to freely have adult conversations around topics including sexuality and substance abuse, and I was there able to write exactly what I needed to, for nearly two years, without censorship or worrying about PG protocol. Horses for courses, excuse the pun. The down side of that forum was that it didn't have a group of keen writers and so I stuck out like a sore thumb, plus it upset some people if I took issue with dysfunctional things in some lyrics, but literary critique has to be able to discuss such stuff and not just write blindly admiring pieces on art. The best of my stuff from there is now going on my blog. I enjoy writing, as some of you probably noticed.

I hope everyone is well and continues to be so. Life is a complex beast and human relationships even more so. It's not a wonderful time in history right now.

PS Edited to fix address!


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## bsms

This doesn't do justice to how dirty he was. He had played "Splash" with/in the water bucket just before I fetched him. He was soaked halfway up his sides. I curry combed a lot of hair out. Tried to take a picture but the curry comb must have felt good because every time I tried to pause to take a picture, he pushed inches in front of me: "_Hey, you missed this spot! Don't stop...._" First time since the fall he was in hoof boots.

He did well the first half of the ride but started to get wound up with a brief canter in a wash. When we eventually turned for home, he wanted to canter...but then he rushed into a fast but frantic canter, surging and feeling too forward. I braced one hand against the horn and then back with the left hand while forward on the right hand, leveraging between them to get good but brief pulls. Release. Repeat. Repeat. I was thinking, "I'll [expletive deleted] with you as long as it takes" when he settled back into a slightly less fast and better balanced canter. So we did that for another hundred yards until the rocks started. I asked him to slow before the rocks but he didn't respond until the rocks were under his feet.

I asked for a brief canter coming back through "Canter Heaven":






Looks good but he struggled with the footing. This area gets soft spots in the sand. It feels like hollow spots under the sand. It isn't, but that is how it feels to me. And there are round rocks that can be just under the sand, unseen but much like landing your foot on an exposed round rock. In any case, he realized he needed to slow for his footing....and then, as always, we ran out of room.

He's not in riding shape right now and neither am I. Jogging tightens muscles that need to relax for good riding and I've done plenty of jogging this winter and almost no riding. I felt stiff and awkward in the saddle. Bandit wasn't spooky but his mind wasn't focused or relaxed. Not until we were walking the paved road home:






You can see I didn't get him very clean before heading out. I wish I could pretend I rode fluidly yesterday but I was stiff, awkward and poorly balanced. The next 3 days are supposed to hit 90 degrees without much wind so I ought to get us both out riding.

I might try convincing him we should do lots of trots and very few canters. Cantering can mess with his mind. He doesn't distinguish well between "Excited" and "Scared' and can get wound up from a couple of canters. I'd rather walk the whole time than have him start to feel a little frantic on the trail.


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## Knave

I never thought about the different muscles. I am jogging a lot, getting ready for another half. I’ve noticed I’ve been dying on Queen lately. I think it’s because to lope circles we have been arguing. She doesn’t want to lope a circle, and she fights about the break. When she does break she either tries to attack whatever horse is out there, or kicks up. She threatens to blow up, so I am riding the top end prepared for a bronc ride, and the bottom end trying to nudge her forward with my feet.

It’s been killing my muscles. Now, I finally had husband come out and help me yesterday, and we loped around the pivot twice, with her dallied off to Cash. I finally got to relax, and she did too, and then my muscles released and I was able to loosen.

So, I have a reason it’s been killing my muscles, but I never did add to that the running!


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## bsms

Got a ride in this morning. It is 80 degrees but the wind had kicked up. Bandit is uncommonly wind-tolerant so I decided to try. I made a few tack changes though. I put my butt velcro (sheepskin) back on the saddle, and I raised the stirrups a hole. I tend to brace against my stirrups and very long makes that impossible - but it also makes it harder to USE my stirrups properly. And I swapped him to his Billy Allen Curb.

The neighborhood flags were whipping hard and flat out. Not super high winds but normal spring winds for here. As we rode out, I tried something else different. When learning to ride, the books I liked most emphasized heels down. So have the few lessons I've had. I long since have concluded it was overrated, but I took a new approach today. Any time I thought about it, I thought "Knees Down" instead of Heels Down. Not "Grip with knees" - and in my western saddle, it is almost physically impossible since the shape of the tree and how the saddle is built means my knees don't actually touch anything! But "Knees Down" or perhaps "Thighs Down"...more "Thighs Down" as the ride progressed. It tended to push my heels further back below me and also raised them, but it worked wonderfully for keeping my knees relaxed and my lower leg just "there" instead of "braced"!

Bandit wasn't comfortable. He nearly stalled out a couple of times. He did some trotting and some cantering, but with "Thighs Down" and with my Butt Velcro for confidence kept me more fluid. When he started to tense up, I could reach my free hand forward and stroke his neck, telling him "Easy" and telling him what a fine horse he was. That worked today to slow him a little versus trying to hold him back with the reins. We rode about 35 minutes...12 out and 24 back, roughly. He slowed as the ride progressed. At one point we turned head first into the wind and I could barely hear myself singing loudly with my mp3 player. The wind was sweeping us nose to tail and I doubt Bandit heard much but he held a walk. He was happy though when we turned sideways to the wind.

He did some trotting up the ATV trail heading home. I thought about another thread talking about holes from horse hooves. This trail had gullies running down the middle and crossing at angles. Bandit was trotting on a 45 slope between the edge of the ATV trail and the bottom of the gully but he had no problem doing so. It looked uncomfortable to me but I try to let him make decisions and he chose...well, it obviously worked for him.

I dismounted when we got back to the paved roads.






The tack changes worked well, but so did *Thighs Down*. I didn't brace my legs the entire ride and finished with my knees feeling fine. You can see his cinch angles forward as it always does. He wanted to get home though and was walking briskly & with purpose! Then he spotted a patch of weeds:






My house and his corral are just above the middle of his neck. But there was a tasty looking weed down there. Still, he acted uncommonly glad when we got back. He didn't want to graze on dried grass in the arena. Just wanted to rejoin his pals. But he did great for a ride with stout winds when we've ridden so little this winter!

I still want to try riding Cowboy again. Maybe later this afternoon.

Running vs riding: With me, running tightens the inner thigh muscles. That then doesn't allow me to relax down around my horse and saddle. I'm happy with my running. I'm doing 3.5 miles at an 8-8:10 pace consistently. My goal is to get back to what I did in my 40s: 5 miles in 40 minutes at least 4 days a week. That may take another year and I may not make it. I turn 64 next month, not 44!

But honestly, @Knave, ignoring my heels and concentrating on getting my knees or thighs down as low as I could helped so much that my problem might just be bad riding more than muscle tension from running. I know riding DOES loosen my legs up better than any stretching I've ever done and view them as complementary. But I'm very pleased with today's ride. Spring winds make it hard to ride in the spring but Bandit handled it better than I had a right to expect. And I rode much better than I did yesterday!


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## bsms

PS: A leg picture from last year.






I think you can see that I can't actually GRIP with my knee. There is an inch or so of gap between my knee and my saddle pad because my saddle tree pushes my thigh further out. So Thighs Down doesn't result in gripping with the knee. With my leg and my saddle and my horse, that isn't even possible.


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## gottatrot

Bandit is looking good! 

I think thighs down is probably more helpful than heels down. It seems like thinking about pushing the heels down will often lead to pushing your stirrup forward and out of balance with the rest of you. 

Usually it's the opposite for me: I don't have trouble riding if I am running a lot, but if I ride a lot there can be issues with my running. I think my adductor/inner thigh muscles tend to be stronger, and if I ride a lot I they get shorter. I have had issues with the IT bands rubbing on the knee or hip bones and causing pain when I run.


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## bsms

I don't think Cowboy has been ridden since May 2018, so almost 4 years now. He always had problems with riding in the arena so I decided we'd take things slow. Saddled him up and had a bowl of hay pellets for him to eat and tried to make sure he had lots of chances to eat. All in all, he did great - for a horse who has been a lawn ornament for 4 years! He didn't get too nervous and didn't show any signs of panicking over being in an arena. Only rode about 20 minutes. My wife took a video but I didn't know the new Apple MOV format cannot be access on Windows 10 without conversion software. Eventually figured out I could take screenshots while playing it on her phone, then transfer over the screenshots.






OK, I'm obviously over 20%. Probably closer to 30% [28.5% best guess] plus he is carrying some extra fat. But he never showed any signs of struggle or resentment - and Cowboy has NO TROUBLE letting you know when he's unhappy! He also offered some trots and one canter - but the canter wasn't easy to see on the video. Oh well.






This is my "Thighs Down" emphasis, but it seems my heels aren't exactly up. He rode surprisingly light on the reins. One needed once in a while to get bossy with him for 2-3 seconds but almost everything else was done with slack while holding the reins loose in my hand.






His trot remains a "Drunken Sailor Trot" - lots of side to side waddling that makes it a rough ride. But given he's always been like that, and has gone nearly 4 years without being ridden, and has significant extra fat around the waist....HE DID GREAT.

We made multiple stops at the Pellet Plate for snacks. Cowboy approved heartily of THAT game plan! And since he did so well, we led my grandson on his first time ever on a horse:






He's 8 but very small for his age. His Dad is 5'2" and his Mom 4'11", so he'll be height challenged all his life. But he loved it and we may start looking for a kid's saddle. I plan to see if I can turn Cowboy - with help of pellets - into a horse who _likes_ riding in the arena. If I can do it, then I can work on softening him more. I'll download more photos of Cowboy and the grandson later.


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## bsms

A few more pictures from yesterday. I tried 5 different video conversion software programs before finding one - Any Video Converter - that actually converted Apple's MOV file into something that would play on my laptop! The first 4 gave garbled video. But once I could view the video (and freeze and go back), I captured pictures from Cowboy's brief cantering. I think I've found an approach that lets me sit in the saddle when I want but get out of it when I think my horse needs it (and no, I'm not holding the horn on the right...just can't figure out what to do with my free hand at times):








*I honestly look too big on him for my tastes*, but he had no complaints (and he WILL complain if he feels imposed on!). Still, photos of the grandson make me think my goal should be to soften Cowboy's responses to cues enough that he could teach the grandson about riding. As an added benefit, he WOULD teach the kid that horses have feelings, opinions and desires and that a good rider works with his horse's MIND and doesn't just impose the rider's will on the horse's body!
























I confess the middle picture is my favorite picture of the day! And in the bottom picture, he looks "right" on Cowboy!

The neighbor is building a workshop and started putting up the metal on top with some cranes. Suspicious to Cowboy, but not too worrying. Still, any rider ought to learn that horses can worry over things and need to be worked WITH rather than ridden ON. *And yeah, he looks a lot better on Cowboy than I do*... 😁...and I'm not biased at all.

I'll add one shot of our scruffy pony midway thru the clean up process. And yes, he's carrying some extra pounds around BELOW his back...he's not a starving pony no matter how much he believes he is. FWIW, I think he cleans up well and is kind of a good looking fellow. The horse, I mean.


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## Knave

I think he’s cute. I also think he looks really good with the grandson on him. If he could be trustworthy with a kid he’s really the perfect size.


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## whisperbaby22

Well what a lucky kid to have you in his life! He really looks like he's having fun.


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## tinyliny

the smile on that cutester is so infectious!


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## gottatrot

I don't think you look comparatively that big on Cowboy. I'll probably look similar on my pony.

Cowboy seems to be a stocky type. He doesn't seem very overweight...I don't see a crest, or a crease in the butt or over the spine, and he seems to have a flank depression. 

Your grandson is adorable!


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## bsms

Was busy yesterday and almost didn't ride. But I wanted Cowboy to get some riding so I rode him in the arena a little before sundown. He quickly figured out where the pan of pellets was. For the most part, his arena nervousness seems gone. I think he was required to do a lot of running around in arenas and he still seems to worry that speed is expected of him. During his 3 years as a lesson pony at a now defunct riding place, he was frequently used because he WOULD run...and a bunch of 200 lbs gals in whatever saddle they brought with them would slouch on his back Like an oversized sack of potatoes while pushing him to run faster....YeHAWWWWW!

Poor pony.

So we emphasized NOT running. We did a little trotting, no cantering. He actually was really light to rein - almost all neck reining and often just a couple of inches of hand movement. He really knows his stuff down deep! If I can get him totally relaxed he could be a very soft pony...unless there is food involved. But even then when he had a mouthful of pellets, he'd move away without much fuss.

On a couple of the trots...I had the distinct impression he was trotting, not with alternate legs, but side to side: both left legs moving forward, then both right ( a pace I guess):






Okay, NONE of his trotting was that extended. Not even close. But the motion of his movement was all side to side, not up down. I need to get the wife to take some movies, although I'm upset that iPhones use a video format so awkward to view on a non-Apple computer... There were a couple of photos from the other day that got me thinking about it but none of them were close enough or at the right angle to know for certain.

But he was entirely willing for the 20 minutes we rode and he didn't mind at all going directly into the setting sun. Suspect he did a lot of that as a lesson horse...although is a 13.0 hand BLM Mustang a short horse or a pony? I always thought ponies WERE short horses! And what in the heck makes a 14.2 hand horse a "pony"? Heck, Trooper is only an inch above that and Bandit only 2 inches...and I'm real sure they are horses!


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## whisperbaby22

Oh it's only what people make it out to be. When I was a kid, any horse under 14.2 was a pony. Some breeds were considered horses no matter how many hands.


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## Knave

That is interesting about the trotting.

Along the lines of @whisperbaby22, I was taught growing up that a horse under 14.2 was technically a pony, but fjords and a few others are always horses.


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## gottatrot

I rode a horse who taught himself to pace because he thought it was more comfortable than having someone bouncing up and down. It was very smooth.

Supposedly miniature horses are not ponies either...I've heard some say that certain breeds are horses even if they are short, such as Icelandics, Fjords, Bashkir Curlies, etc. 
Also, some horses are called ponies even if they are quite big, like 15+ hand Connemaras and Welsh section D, although some people call them cobs when they get tall. 

When I called to ask questions about Aria, both the woman who was selling her on Craigslist and her breeder acted confused whenever I said "pony." Did you sell a pony? No. OK fine, did you sell a 13 hand horse? Yes. Apparently because she is Arab, she is not a pony even though she is a tiny pony. 

I prefer to go by two rules: One, anything 14.2 hands and under is a pony. Two, some behaviors get a horse called "pony," such as either being sweet and nice (Aw, cute pony), or it also can be used as a derogatory term when a horse is being a brat, he gets called pony because he isn't living up to the stature and supposedly regal nature of a horse.


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## bsms

I understand a cut-off needs to be somewhere, and I assume the cut-off came from England and English riders who seem to think 16 hands is barely big enough for a small adult to ride...."_I weigh 120 lbs. Am I too big for my 17 hand Warmblood?_" But Bandit is only 2 INCHES above "pony" size. I'm 5'8" and there is no way he looks remotely "pony" to me!:






In fact I don't see "pony" in just about ANY western horse. _Small horse_ maybe, but "pony" to me means "Suited in size to kids although OK for light adults". Cowboy is a pony. I don't think he minds being ridden by an adult who actively rides - unlike some of my fellow students where Cowboy was a lesson horse! - but he's obviously not the best choice for an adult who does work from horseback. If nothing else, his back is short enough that a lot of adult western saddles would be an issue. He's a PONY! Trooper, who is just 1 inch above...he's a small horse...who has carried some BIG men (6'3") without acting tired. No picture but he once carried a guy 3 inches taller than this on the guy's first time on a horse...and didn't act tired or sore the next day. He's a HORSE, darn it! And not "just barely...."






I admit I get tired of hearing "_My 16.5 hand gelding just doesn't take up enough of my leg!_" YEGADS!

BTW - the 6'6" guy who rode Trooper really did have issues. Even the guy above did because the SADDLE had the stirrups as far down as they would go...and they needed to drop further. But horse and rider adapted...although the 6'6" guy really was SQUEEZED into the saddle!  Looked awkward but they trail rode all over the place and both new rider and Trooper acted content and relaxed at the end. That makes Trooper a HORSE!


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## Knave

I agree. Although I always heard 14.2, I never think of a horse as a pony. I also rarely think any horse is too small for a job. Maybe it’s because of cutting horses getting so small.

I do think of horses like Moon as a pony, but I don’t think of @gottatrot ‘s Aria as a real pony. Maybe I would in real life. I don’t think of Zeus as a pony by any means, but he’s 14hh. I get a fjord is never a pony, but I kinda feel that way about horse breeds. I think of pony breeds as ponies and horse breeds as horses.

Would a 13hh horse be able to do what we do? I’m not sure. I saw a 13hh appy who I would have given a shot. I don’t think of myself as very big though, although I am on the taller side. Look at my girls! My oldest is 5’9.5” and my youngest probably getting closer to 5’11”. My oldest is underweight, under 120. Do I think she would be too big for the appy to carry to work? Probably not. He was sturdy and looked usable. If he was fine boned maybe.

Dragging calves, size can come into account. Yet, Bones feels like he can drag anything and be perfectly ambitious always. I have been watching Queen, but for me that is because she is so young and still learning. I don’t want her to believe it is hard. I want to build her confidence.

Do I think Aria could hold up to work? I don’t know. I’d have to see her at work. With Gotta, I definitely think she could climb mountains and push cows for a long day, but you never know how much heart a horse has until you test them.


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## bsms

I was going to post this on @gottatrot 's journal but it kept getting longer and longer so I'm putting it here. It follows gottatrot's riding Aria for one of her first rides ever.
------------------------------------------------------------------------​You mentioned her forward groove and your leg being forward. This is a somewhat inelegant screenshot but it looks to me like your leg was seeking that forward groove due to the width of her ribs:






Seems like a forward leg may be something to accept on her rather than something to worry about. The same forces pushing a girth forward would affect one's leg.

The forward girth thing also puzzles me a bit. In western riding, having the cinch angle forward is common and rarely commented on. In English riding, it is treated as sinful ("_I say old chap, can't you afford a saddle that fits your horse? Bad show old boy...._"). I can see where the two attachment points favor a girth going straight down, but is it really a problem having it angle forward? IIRC, Mia's girth angled forward on my Aussie saddle...and it worked fine. And of course, Bandit's angles forward western:







Another odd viewpoint from me: I like a lot of things about the US Cavalry manual, but I still puzzle over proper mounting:






It makes perfect sense for someone in the cavalry wearing a sword and carrying gear...but I know SOME western instructors teach a more forward motion. I find facing forward, grabbing a big handful of mane and pulling myself forward (and only incidentally moving a leg across) seems to help the saddle stay stable as I mount. I can largely do it with one hand although putting my right arm on the far side of the saddle helps me balance. It wasn't something I started trying until I was using western saddles and maybe there is an English saddle thing that doesn't work for mounting forward. But it really helps me.

Particularly so since Bandit seems to think that if I'm moving, he might as well move too. I lead him to the end of the paved road and mount up facing a rocky uphill section. Bandit seems to think that would be a good time to turn around and start moseying back to his pals in the corral. For me, it has become...mount, get a leg over the saddle, take the reins and start steering Bandit back to the desert, then hopefully find the second stirrup halfway up the hill! When I took lessons, I was told it was important to make sure the horse didn't move until I was fully seated and comfortable and anything else was the horse "disrespecting" me. Oh well. I guess Bandit just doesn't respect me all that much....

Speaking of which...Bandit has a habit of peeing before he eats. I assume it gives him some extra room for food? We did a cross country trip to swap cars with my youngest in Augusta Georgia earlier this month and our son took care of the house and horses while his kids made the trip with us (4,000 miles round trip when gas prices went thru the roof...typical of my timing!)

Anyways, when we got back, our son reported that Bandit was disrespectful. How? Well, every time he went to feed the horses, Bandit insisted on "dropping" just as our son got to the gate.

I have no idea how that would be "disrespectful" unless....a size issue? Maybe he thinks Bandit is insulting him for being built like a human? What the heck? People have really strange ideas about how horses think! In any case, I'm old enough not to feel insulted. Or care. And I really think Bandit is more interested in rejoining his friends in the corral than being with me. Hard to believe, isn't it? How "disrespectful" of Bandit to start moving (and turn!) when I try to mount up! But of all the things to claim a horse is disrespectful about.....dropping and peeing? Humans are REALLY weird! 
*Is it any wonder I like dogs and horses more than people? *​
"_occasionally people come on the forum and say they just got a "green" horse, and it sounds to me like the horse is acting like that and hasn't actually been ridden._"

That was me and Mia. We bought Lilly at the same time. They told us SHE had been ridden before and the 300 lb guy actually mounted up to prove it on slender little Lilly (700-750 according to the vet). Poor Lilly was so sore afterward that the lady we had hired to work with her insisted she get a couple weeks of rest first! But as best we could figure out much later, Mia had almost no riding experience too. The trainer who worked with her a few years later said Mia & I had been riding totally on Mia's good will and desire to please.

I now assume "green broke" means "_Had a saddle within a hundred yards of her once..._" or maybe, "_I put a bit in my back pocket once when feeding her..._" Maybe it REALLY means: 

*"You've got to be mighty green to think she's broke!"
🤣*​


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## Knave

I think the Calvary suggested mounting in such a way because it is safer. When riding a colt, you have to mount facing backwards or from the side, and so it becomes general habit.

If you imagine standing at the horses head, facing his rear or the side of him, with his head tipped towards you with the inside rein, and then imagine him taking a jump or trying to kick you, you are now in control of his head and able to maintain control of him without being kicked.

If you are standing facing the same direction of the horse (which I do with old horses just depending on how I walk up to them), you are placing yourself directly into cow kicking area.


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## knightrider

My horses often pee when they see me coming with their food buckets. I always thought they did that because I feed them in their stalls, and they didn't want to pee in their stalls because it is just sand in there and would splash their legs. Most horses prefer to pee in grass or pine needles or something to avoid the splash.

My brother always decided he had to use the bathroom when Mom called us for supper. I think he was having so much fun playing, he didn't realize he had to go until he was interrupted.

I can't imagine thinking it is disrespect?!


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## bsms

Knave said:


> When riding a colt, you have to mount facing backwards or from the side, and so it becomes general habit.


I took some lessons at Utah State decades before buying Mia (1978...yegads but I'm getting old!). The guy taught all mounting that way. It seemed to me facing backwards at the horse's shoulder left one open to being bitten on the butt, but maybe kicking is a more common response? One shortened the inside rein and left a little slack in the outside rein so the horse would spin in the same direction you were spinning as you mounted up. One advantage to a spinning mount is your stirrup leg is straight against the side of your horse as you start up, giving more direct power to go straight up.

In any case, one of the first times I mounted Mia, I did it in the spinning movement I had been taught and it scared Mia...so I went online to watch videos and read the cavalry manual and switched to the 90 Degree Mount. It is the normal way but it seems the least horse-friendly.

I did it that way until I wondered if I could find a way of mounting that would put less sideways strain on the saddle (and horse). I need to get the wife to film it so I can see how far back I actually stand at the start. Having a handful of mane and reins seems like it requires a position not too far back - unlike using the "Hold the horn" method. 

If I was going to worry about being attacked by my horse, though...maybe I ought to be doing something different FIRST rather than fully mounting a scared or aggressive horse?


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## Knave

I think if he’s trying to bite you, yes you are right. I don’t think the concern is necessarily that a horse is aggressive, but young and could spook of something happening.

I don’t think you should mount that way on a broke horse if you don’t want to. You should do whatever is most comfortable for both of you!


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## bsms

I tried it this morning on Bandit. The video was so embarrassing I refuse to post any screenshots of it...OMG! *Every time I take a video of myself, I realize how awful I look.* Although when I see videos of others....well, I'm not sure riding horses makes many of us look like ballerinas! I tried the spinning thing a couple of times. Bandit didn't give a rat's rear end about how I mounted. Unlike Mia, he is far too concerned with BANDIT to pay much attention to BOB! "_Feelings? What do you take me for, a mare?_"

Facing the rear DOES make it much easier for an old guy to get his foot up into the stirrup but it feels to me like it then puts more pressure on the saddle than either a simple 90 Degree Mount or a forward motion mount. I was quite unimpressed by my attempted forward motion mount today...think I was starting too far forward while on the ground so it turned into more of a straight up motion, just like a 90 Degree Mount.

Took Bandit out afterward and tried a Turning Mount at the trail head. I'd swear Bandit really, truly doesn't care at all about how I get on. Mia was sensitive about things and easily had hurt feelings. *Bandit is the John Wayne of horses*: Personal feelings? What are those? "_We're burning daylight boy so just do whatever it takes and haul your rump up and over! I ain't waiting for you to get done either way!_"

I will say he was great on the trail today. Yesterday we were battling winds and he did pretty good. I'm trying to focus on less speed...but today Bandit kept offering it. However, he kept offering a CONTROLLED trot or canter. Even when moving fast you could tell he was in total control of his emotions and body. There is a section to the north of Canter Heaven that has much deeper sand and a lot more rocks. He seemed to think it would be a good place to canter today, so we went north to south thru it, pausing a couple of strides where the wash turns to start Canter Heaven, then to the end of that all in a collected - as in SELF-collected - canter.

The mp3 player in one ear was playing Frank Sinatra singing "Pass Me By" and I was singing along in a duet with the Chairman of the Board...so maybe Bandit LIKED cantering to my singing? Good thing no one was anywhere nearby since they'd have thought I was stark raving mad!




I was wearing my Tilley hat instead of helmet today. It is getting to the time of year when the UV light beating down starts to punish me in a helmet. I understand wearing helmets and have no problem doing so in the winter but once the sun starts beating down here...and happily, Bandit is a pretty solid citizen now. Still, it would have been interesting to see a video of us, cantering down the wash, me in my white hat singing Pass Me By with Frank Sinatra and Bandit just being Bandit! Not saying I'd be willing to POST the video, but I do wish I HAD one!


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## bsms

Aw heck. Some humiliation is good for the soul. From my attempt at a twisting mount for the first time since I started riding Mia in 2008. Glad Bandit is not fussy. By rights he'd kick the snot out of me. But he's more "Just get your butt over...":


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## tinyliny

I smiled to read that you sing while you ride. That has got to be real refreshment for the soul!


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## gottatrot

I think inelegance is part of riding horses. Probably most of us don't like how we look in videos and photos, LOL. But all humans look funny compared to horses. Our shapes are not as aesthetically pleasing.

I should try forward facing to get on Aria once she is a little more used to things. It might work better with the treeless saddle. Facing the horse is an old habit for me. A lot of times I get off on a ride because the horse is worked up. Why that is varies. Maybe the other horse disappeared running around a corner, maybe something spooked us. But when I get back on, the chances of my horse taking off are often high. I've tried forward facing mounting when a horse was taking off, and unless you've achieved the position where your weight is over the stirrup already, you simply get left behind. If you have a saddle horn, you can continue the motion against the momentum of the horse. Otherwise, your leg falls back down to the ground, you hop a couple of times as fast as you can, and then usually fall over backwards as the horse leaves. I should get that on video, LOL. True elegance.

When you face the horse, if you're not quite there when the horse takes off, you can belly flop and time your arrival into the saddle seat. When cantering, this requires correct timing. Ideally, you fling yourself into the correct position while the horse is in the air, and have a good seat by the time they hit the ground. I've ridden some good distances on my stomach at various speeds. Ideally I can turn the horse, but sometimes it is too narrow or steep, and straight is our only option.
When my horses are calm, I usually have them trained to stand while I get on, and then begin walking the moment I hit the saddle. If they are freaking out, all bets are off.

I don't mind having the cinch angle forward in general, but only if it pulls the saddle forward. Amore was a similar shape to Aria. From behind, sometimes you almost couldn't see a rider's leg on Amore. I think you are right that the rider's leg will end up more forward at the girth on this shape of horse. 

You can see from this photo of Amore how for example if the saddle had the billets near the back of the saddle, the cinch would always end up in the girth groove, and so it would pull the saddle over her shoulder. If half the saddle was in front of the cinch, then it could get as far as her neck.








It all looks so innocent from the side view. Except that tiny flat spot right next to her front leg is the only place the girth will sit so it had to be very flat or her leg would rub against it. 








Aria is even worse. She doesn't even really have a flat spot for the girth. This is when she still had prominent hip bones and tail head.


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## bsms

From my perspective, being left behind would beat being halfway on a frantic horse galloping away. If I'm left behind, I'm safe. Maybe bruised, but safe. That is part of why I _like_ a forward mount. It makes it easier to be left behind than partway on. It may come from my years with Mia, and bolts where Mia wasn't all sane. _She scared the living daylights out of me_ many times even when I was very securely in the saddle! I never wished her harm but I greatly preferred the idea of HER dying than me dying with her. I must have loved her because it wasn't really sane for me to ride her like I did for so long.

I think there is also some difference between English and western saddles. I truly don't understand why English saddles have slick leather bottoms! I'm not sure what the bottom of my Aussie saddle was called, but it had more "stick" to it than slick leather, and the fake sheepskin on the bottom of a western saddle - well, think of "butt velcro" only now between the horse and saddle! A western fender is also more stable than an English leather. These are all factors that can affect what one tries, how they try it and why.

I'll try a few things during my next few rides. IIRC, the instructor at Utah State - an old cowboy himself - wanted the head turned toward the rider with a tight inside rein specifically so the horse was more likely to turn than take off straight. It wouldn't be a 100% solution because Mia was entirely capable of running straight with her head turned. And many years ago, visiting a ranch in Idaho, a horse bolted straight ahead with his nose almost touching my knee! But I agree a horse with his head turned in is more likely to turn when he starts moving than to race straight ahead.

Happily, it really isn't an issue now with any of my horses. I used to worry about Bandit taking off but he's not the same horse he was 7 years ago - thankfully. Trooper? You could probably climb aboard him using a rope and tackle without phasing him! And Cowboy is short enough you can pretty much JUMP aboard, even at my age.

Unhappily, given my age, they are also likely to be my last horses. Bandit is 14 - 50 years younger than me. He could easily keep riding with me into my mid-70s or even later. And since I don't own a ranch and don't have family who would want my horses after I die...well, I'm not likely to ever need to deal with a spooky horse taking off again. That is good in a way but it also reminds me I'm getting old. Still, I ran 3.5 miles this afternoon and finished in just over 27 minutes. That's a 7:45 average. Not 7:30 and not for 5 miles, but not bad for someone who was never fast and who turns 64 this month! And I rode Bandit cantering down a wash in my Tilley hat singing along with Frank Sinatra today, and that's not something everyone has done at _any_ age....😉


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## Knave

I think you are in very good shape @bsms. I wouldn’t finish a mile in 7:30 unless it was my only mile and it was downhill. Lol. I’m happy to poke along at a slow pace for a long distance.


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## gottatrot

I shorten the inside rein and tip a horse's head toward me every time I think they might want to move off with me, unless we're on a narrow space. It works really well. 

I agree with @Knave, you're quite fast. Looking at results from a 5K I ran in several years ago with 52 participants: around here if you could run that fast in a 5K amateur race, you would be 16th overall. You would be 2nd in the 40 and over category (masters). I was 26th, and as my sister says, we remain above average for women. Now if you compare yourself to elite athletes, you might not seem fast. Compared to the average human running in a 5k, quite fast. Compared to most people your own age, greased lightning. Compared to me, as well. After 32 years of running, I finally managed to run a sub 28 minute 5k. That was with lots of training and pushing myself. My average is to run a sub 30 minute 5k. That's racing, LOL.


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## bsms

From May 2015, nearly 7 years ago....






Bandit suffered in comparison back then but I think he'd hold his own now. Mia would be 22 now. Don't have contact with her owner now so no idea if she is still alive. But she had a couple of foals and lived in open country where she didn't get scared and where she could run full out regularly, so that was to the good. Hope she's doing well but Bandit has earned his spot here.


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## tinyliny

I could only run 25 feet if a monster were chasing me.! I admire your commitment to physical fitness.

I'm with @bsms; I would rather be left behind on the ground than be belly on the horse while it capers off!


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## bsms

The wife offered to ride with me today in celebration of hitting another birthday. Trooper hadn't been groomed in a few weeks:






Heading up the hill into the desert with Trooper BRIEFLY in the lead:






That was a situation Bandit quickly remedied:






As any good horse should understand, one goes into the desert to add variety to a horse's diet:






I'd prefer it if she wore a helmet since this is likely to be her "_2022 Ride For The Year_". But she says using a helmet makes her feel tense because why would she wear a helmet if she wasn't doing something dangerous? I'd still be happier if she wore one, but a relaxed rider who feels good will stick on a horse better than one who is tense or worried...and besides, it isn't as if The Husband gets a vote!

That is one drawback to starting on Mia. Just _watching_ her over the years made my wife afraid of riding, even though Cowboy and Trooper have always been remarkably steady horses!

And Trooper is just about the ultimate Steady Trail Horse. Bandit is getting really good too. He briefly offered a couple of trots but when Trooper didn't join in he slowed on his own. Someone who rides annually doesn't need to be racing around. The winds picked up half way thru the ride, enough that I pulled out the straps to hold my hat on & The Wife tucked her hat under her arm most of the second half of the ride. It says volumes about Trooper than an annual rider COULD tuck her hat under her arm and keep riding in the wind and not feel worried about it!

She _might_ consider doing more riding. I think Bandit's example helped her feel better about riding too. She's a more natural rider than I am. Horses like her and feel good about carrying her, whereas I have had to work at everything. Both of us think Trooper enjoyed getting out.


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## gottatrot

Your wife has a really nice posture on a horse. It's great you have a horse she can safely ride when she feels like going out.


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## Knave

Happy birthday!!


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## Chevaux

I was thinking that, also, gottatrot - the lady’s a natural.


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## bsms

Shockingly, The Wife offered to ride again. Twice in less than a week! Inconceivable! Unheard of!

I decided to try my leather saddle for a change. Big change. It is just a very different feel from the Abetta...and weighs roughly...oh, 150 lbs more. At least, when on my shoulder taking it out.






Heading out. I later dropped my stirrups a hole. You can see Bandit takes his lead role seriously, listening for things he knows I can't hear. Reins not very slack, unlike my wife on Trooper. That isn't my choice as much as it is Bandit's. He just rides calmer and more forward this way. So we do.






Trooper and The Wife coming towards us in the wash:






The Wife took a photo of me while we were on one of our many "Horses Deserve To Eat" breaks:






I then took a photo of her taking a photo:






A little while later we left the wash and struck out cross country. We did well for a while and Trooper took the lead...which annoyed Bandit, but he needs to learn to deal with it. Then Trooper started off, trotting and prancing. Fortunately, my wife was more concerned with calming Trooper than her safety, which is the right approach. At least when you are riding a fundamentally sane horse. Trooper settled and we wandered a little more before rejoining a trail.

On the trail, Bandit surged forward to take the lead and I spotted WHY Trooper did what he did: He had a couple of pieces of cactus in his right front leg. So we dismounted, I held Trooper and Marlene borrowed my knife to get rid of most of it. Pliers would have helped, but a knife is what we had.






Everyone was relaxed on the rest of the ride. Winds started to pick up but not bad. We dismounted once back on pavement, and that was when I realized Bandit had picked up a piece of cactus too:






One flick of my knife blade removed it all, including spines, so the spines hadn't gone as deep into Bandit. In any case, it would be like Bandit not to care. I know horses are incredibly sensitive, etc...but Bandit is the sort who cusses a little and carries on. Although in his own way he CAN be incredibly sensitive. We went off trail partway back, weaving in and out and between, and Bandit took "suggestions" from me with maybe 1-2 inches of rein movement on his neck. When he's in the mood, he's VERY responsive.

Also, heading back, we came across a dog loose from the neighborhood. He stood off about 100 feet, barking his head off. Bandit wanted to face him, head-on horse facing head-on dog. Trooper kept strolling, figuring Bandit would take care of things. And I'm pretty sure if the dog had charged, he'd have found himself fighting 850 lbs of unafraid and annoyed horse. I know horses are prey animals, but Bandit isn't a prey animal who is planning on going down easy. His body and expression was, "_You start it. I'll finish it_." Maybe the dog understood because he didn't come any closer and we rode away once Trooper was clear. Bandit is a little quirky at times, but he's got some toughness to him. Once he commits to do something, he doesn't quit.

BTW, I had both of us set up with "Booma Reins" today, so we could drop the reins if we wanted without losing them. They aren't perfect but they can be convenient on a grazing horse. And I wouldn't want to _count_ on The Wife not dropping a rein ever....


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## bsms

*I get soooo sick of know-it-all idiot people lecturing me on horses!*​
Went out solo today. The winds weren't supposed to pick up until after noon, but they were gusting good by 9AM. I walked Bandit to the desert. To get there, we passed a steel building a neighbor is having built - 24' high (max allowed by code) and close to the road. With the wind gusting, the sheet metal was rattling...but Bandit just looked. The workers asked if I was going to ride my horse. "_Not on pavement_", I replied.

Got to where the desert starts and mounted up. Bandit was content to walk. Given the winds, I didn't mind walking. He wasn't enthusiastic but kept moving, sometimes briefly at a mild trot if I pushed him not to lollygag. We entered the wash, then entered "Canter Heaven". Walking. Bandit began to act concerned. I didn't see anything. Was it wind? About 30 feet later, he spun 180 in place and leaped away. First time he's tried to run away in ages! I hung on, bumped the reins, and got him stopped in 3-4 hoppy strides. Spun him around 180 with just a neck rein.

He paused for a moment, said "_Nope!_" and did another 180. Got him to stop in 1-2 strides and spun him around again. He paused again, then spun again. As he spun, I spotted a couple of javelina in the brush about 10-15 feet away. Don't know if they had followed us down the wash or if we had wandered into the center of a group, but the glimpse showed they were as interested in parting company with us as we were with them.

Got Bandit turned around again. He stood still, sides heaving. I patted his neck and told him I understood. My granddaughter has to do a book report. We read Old Yeller out loud to each other, then watched the movie. I don't want to be surrounded by wild pigs either! After another pause, he slowly moved toward the area he had just run away from. A trail branched off 20 feet short of his first spin and we took it. He pranced and looked sideways on full alert, then slowed to a watchful walk. We rode another 1/4 mile or so, then turned back. Bandit didn't LIKE re-entering Canter Heaven, but he did. And we walked through it. 

Climbing out of the wash, we both spotted a strange horse being ridden a couple hundred yards away...and away from us. They didn't see us. Bandit doesn't like strange horses. He went on full alert and we did an Arabian Walk most of the way back to the neighborhood. By that time the winds were gusting good (20 mph steady, gusts higher) - but Bandit settled into a WALK and finished the ride that way. 

I led him on pavement and we passed the steel building going up. The wind was flopping 20 foot strips of sheet metal. Bandit was very alert but kept walking with me. The old guy - my age at least - asked what was wrong with my horse. 

"_Why don't you ride him?_" 

"_Pavement_", I replied.

"_He acts like a horse who has never been out of the corral! *Has anyone EVER ridden him?*_"

"_Only a few thousand miles_," I replied. Which may be true given all the miles he had before I got him. And I've covered some ground with him over the last 7 years!

"_You ought to be RIDING that horse!_"

I came real close to telling the Boss-Turd to haul his fat rear end over, toss a leg over Bandit's back and show me how it was done...but that wouldn't be fair to Bandit and I'd be liable for any injuries. So after a moment, I replied, "_My horse. My rules!_". Then we walked away.

Bandit did very well today. Yes, he spooked over some javelina. Don't know if the javelina followed us a little or not but I don't mind my horse trying to keep him & me away from them. He never lost his mind. Never a question about his footing. He neck reined 180 turns back to face the threat. It was a stressful ride for him but he didn't resent me for it and never ignored me. For the most part, when I asked him to walk, he walked. An ARABIAN WALK...but a walk! 

I was happy with HIM!

But if I don't ride him on pavement past a metal building with sheet metal flapping in the wind...I suck at riding. I'm a coward or my horse sucks or I don't know how to ride my horse because...what? Because I don't own a horse who is an automaton who mindlessly obeys my orders? _*Blast it!*_ We did well today. I can't imagine owning - nor want to own - a horse who calmly drags his rump and mine past a bunch of flapping sheet metal. On a thread about helmets I said I'm a wimp of a rider...but not entirely. It was a bit of a stressful ride for me, let alone Bandit! And Bandit gave me all he had to give and I was proud of him.

* Is it any wonder I like horses better than people?  *​
PS: With the heat, I was hemetless again to day. I will say that when things get interesting, I'm too busy to worry. I suspect a helmet would have given me some additional measure of safety but I really think Bandit has turned into a wonderful horse. Not perfect and he certainly can still do a 180 in no time flat...but I truly feel vastly safer on him than I ever did on Mia. She also gave me all she had, but her all wasn't as much as Bandit's all....


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## Knave

I’m sorry. I don’t like people like that either.


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## egrogan

I certainly know how frustrating those conversations are. Even when you know you're doing right by your horse and right by _yourself_, it's still so irritating. My version is all the tsk-tsking older ladies who shake their head when you dismount on the trail to pass a cow or something the horse is worried about. Not sure what makes it better to stay on a horse when it's running backwards, humping up it's back or popping up in front for 5 minutes before passing something, versus hopping off, walking past The Thing in 30 seconds, and getting back on to go your merry way. 🤷‍♀️


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## whisperbaby22

Good for Bandit. You've got a good horse there. I've never liked the term "bomb proof", yes it has a meaning but I would not like a bomb proof horse. If a bomb goes off near me I want my horse to high tail it out of there. 

And I have discussed this walking your horse thing on this forum before. When I was a kid and went on day long rides I often got down and walked for a while. As an old lady I still often get down and walk, having sand areas is great because if I get down and walk for 5 minutes in deep sand it gives me a better work out than most folks get.

For the most part, people who get after me for walking my horse out on the trail are just being nice. Nosey, but nice. If you see me strutting down the trail, enjoying the nature, it's not to likely that I am injured and need help. 

I no longer explain that to people. I am not one for socializing on a trail ride. I simply say something like isn't it a nice day! have a great day! and keep going. I don't want to waste my time in nature and my horse, with nosey people.


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## TrainedByMares

You need a larger property so you don't have to see these people when you are riding or walking @bsms !


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## gottatrot

Well you know, if you could just be calm and confident, your horse would calm down down also and you'd be able to ride anywhere. It's your own fault if a horse is nervous. Bwahahaha.

I think it's hilarious (as well as annoying) how much contradicting advice you get with horses. In a similar situation when I was riding the horse, I was scolded for riding when the horse was "on the muscle" by a horse trainer. So you certainly should ride the horse that is upset, and you definitely should not. 

The sad part is that people new to horses take so many of these things to heart, and believe they must be doing things wrong. At least I did for quite some time. It takes a long time to get the confidence that you are actually doing what is best for you and the horse.


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## bsms

I know I'm not the only one who beats himself up over my "failures" in riding, but it would be nice if I could at least ignore the comments of the totally ignorant with greater ease! I have no way of knowing if the workers had ever ridden at all, and I'm certain they hadn't spent much time riding spooky horses! *Yet it hurt.* No good reason why it should. Bandit did exactly what I would want him to do in the situations we faced today. I did OK too. Heck, I stayed on a genuinely scared horse (who had genuine justification for being scared). And together, we did everything we needed to do. I helped him. He helped me. We both listened to each other and made decisions that both of us felt good about afterward. That is about as good as it can get!

When my wife gave birth to our youngest, they hooked her up to the IV and pumped so much fluid into her that she GAINED WEIGHT during the delivery! She actually weighed MORE after giving birth! The following morning, still super-saturated, she staggered down the hall. A well-intentioned (I assume) woman told her, "_You'll feel much better after you give birth!_"

The Wife told me if she could have waddled faster, she'd have choked the [expletive deleted] out of the [expletive deleted]!

At least that woman MEANT well. But why do we let anyone - particularly a stranger who did NOT mean well - the ability to wound us? 25 years in the military left me with a reasonably thick skin...but today really bothered me. _Maybe because he was talking down my horse too?_ From the journals, I know others whose horses are "opinionated" encounter the same thing, sometimes from riders who haven't ridden much and sometimes from people who haven't ridden at all. 

"_Have you heard of Clinton Anderson?_" 

"_Yeah, and Hades will be buried beneath a glacier before I train like that!_"

Oh well. Somewhere there is a balance between being a rider who doesn't care to get better, and a rider who beats himself up for being imperfect. Maybe someday I'll find it.

And I'm grateful for the journals. So much of riding seems to be supposedly perfect riders or instructors who never seem to sweat, make mistakes, cuss, fail, or fall. The journals seem to be where imperfect humans ride imperfect horses and struggle sometimes without giving up - where training is an exploration and a search instead of a well-mapped highway.


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## Knave

It is hard to not let others hurt us. I think it’s worse with people we know. When Grandpa said “There is not a thing I like about that horse,” in regards to Cash, I cried for hours that night! I had done so much work, and he didn’t see the whole picture of the horse, simply the fact he was petrified of ropes and willing to hurt someone over it.

Now if he could see Cash, he would know how much work I did, and that he is the best branding horse around. Ropes mean nothing to him. He’ll drag anything and rope anything and do danged good at it. My girls can rope on him, and I don’t question a thing about him stepping into someone else’s branding. He’s the best I’ve ever had. Yet, I let a bad day and a bad time frame break my heart. We all get our feelings hurt over these things; we put so much time and effort and emotion into it.

This guy probably knows nothing much at all. It takes knowing a lot to know how little you know. If he knew a lot, he would question his initial reaction to the situation. He would think there was so much to take into account for that he didn’t know. Grandpa, he knew. He was a horseman through and through, and he just saw a mean streak in Cash that day. Cash had a lot to overcome after being started in prison.

It’s funny you mention Clinton. He is one of the only trainers I’ve heard say to not be on a horse when things were going bad. He’s the first to say, get off and get it on the ground. Lol


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## whisperbaby22

Well I'm sorry you felt hurt. I guess I'm so immune to comments because I have been lucky to have had horses in my life all my life. Who knows, maybe this fellow has ridden enough so that he could have sat that spook, but I'll betcha that even if he noticed the javelins, he would have been mad at the horse for spooking at a couple of pigs. 

You knew what your horse was doing and why, that makes you maybe not the superior rider, but the superior horseman.


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## knightrider

egrogan said:


> I certainly know how frustrating those conversations are. Even when you know you're doing right by your horse and right by _yourself_, it's still so irritating. My version is all the tsk-tsking older ladies who shake their head when you dismount on the trail to pass a cow or something the horse is worried about. Not sure what makes it better to stay on a horse when it's running backwards, humping up it's back or popping up in front for 5 minutes before passing something, versus hopping off, walking past The Thing in 30 seconds, and getting back on to go your merry way. 🤷‍♀️


 What I discovered, thanks to @egrogan , is that it doesn't make any difference to the horse if you get off or not. The only difference is that the rider is safer. The horse does fine either way. That's what I think, anyway.


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## TrainedByMares

What I think it's important to remember is that we all have made hurtful and improper comments at some point in our lives. It's funny the things you remember,the stuff that sticks out in your mind as negative and you never forget it. But what about the things you yourself said? Did people perceive them as hurtful? Were they meant to be that or simply a light-hearted joke? 
You have to go through life with a thick skin, closed mouth and positive outlook but it's tough to do! Some days I am easily offended and other days it slides right off. 

I live in Amish country and people naturally assume every horse is 'traffic safe and sound' and bombproof. Not so! Surprise! I can't ride my horse down a busy highway ! 

I recently watched a documentary about the war horses of WW1. Just like people,not all the horses were suited for the conditions they were in. 

Do the best you can for yourself and your horse @bsms and take the comments lightheartedly.


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## bsms

The Wife rode with me yesterday. As she noted, "Three times in one month!" Don't know if she'll become a regular or not. We did strike out cross-desert at one point, which meant going downhill while threading our way between cactus and pushing thru some brush to get to the wash at the bottom - which then provided a good route toward home. I think she was happy about feeling comfortable as Trooper did it. I think lesson programs ought to have some way of having new riders ride up and down slopes while dodging things. That gives a better seat, IMHO, than lots of laps around a level arena! So she's gaining confidence.

I didn't take pictures of her because my cell phone was deep in my pants pocket and hard to access. She took one of me, on a slightly grumpy looking Bandit. Both horses were grazing and I needed to pull Bandit's head up so I wouldn't be leaning way forward. He didn't totally appreciate the interruption:






BTW - Bandit doesn't mind tilting to eat, and he didn't feel a need to stand upright just for a photo - so we're both tilted. You can see the Palo Verde are blossoming now too! Lots of bees humming at the Palo Verde trees but they are busy gathering pollen and leave horses alone.

He spooked just a little at one point coming home and The Wife noticed Bandit isn't exactly "Point and Go". Trooper didn't blink an eye at that spot...which is what makes Trooper, regardless of his stand-offish personality, and excellent beginner's horse. I don't _like_ him but I _respect_ him. Personally, I respect Bandit more. He wants to live forever. When we were threading our way down the slope into the wash, I had him stop a few times so I could look for possible openings ahead. I noticed he took deep breathes at those spots, ears intently forward. I was trying to find a path and he was content to let me do my job. HE was scanning for threats - which DO exist and that one doesn't want to encounter in thick brush - and I was happy he was doing HIS job. It meant we were working together to accomplish a goal.


----------



## whisperbaby22

I do see all that cactus, but what a stunning place to ride.


----------



## bsms

The parts for the bitless hackamore arrived this afternoon. I wanted to try them in the arena first so got in a short ride before sunset. As best I could tell...Bandit rode just like in a curb bit. I think he felt freer in the trot. Same in a canter. We stopped a lot for him to nibble a bit because it takes 50-100% more pressure pulling up on the reins to get him to leave some grass than it takes to slow him in a spook - so if he was going to have a bad reaction and protest, THAT would get one!

Nope. Nothing. He obviously enjoyed being able to eat faster but it took the same amount of pull to get his head up bitless as in a curb.

I used the parts with an old headstall. It has good leather but looks like dog poop. Still, it worked and the leather is thick and soft. And Bandit isn't big on looks. In fact, at ride's end, I think he was about to fall asleep:






I like the way the chin strap separated, applying pressure over a larger area. I may try again in the arena tomorrow afternoon and lengthen the top part and shorten the bottom. The headstall is closer to the eye than I want.


----------



## gottatrot

That's great your hackamore seemed to work for Bandit! So far I like the design. I need to go for a trail ride in mine very soon with Hero. I think you are right that making the nose part a little longer will help lower the cheekpieces a bit. 
For Hero I like that the shanks are short enough to be away from his mouth, since he likes to grab shanks and play with them.


----------



## bsms

Okay, tried a trail ride with Bandit today. I think I had the bridle adjusted a lot better but I wasn't entirely happy with the ride.

The primary difference noted was he was less sharp, less precise for neck reining. I use a more aggressive style of neck reining in part because I like using it in emergencies. And...neck reining was mushy. Yes, he'd turn and did fine on trails. If I go off trail, I need to help out sometimes moving him _immediately_ a foot left or right because of the little cactus bombs hiding in the brush. And without something firm fixing the reins in front, it was like a 65 Chevy truck I once owned (for $500 so I couldn't complain). You started turning the steering wheel, and eventually it engaged the gears and the truck started turning. But you could swing the wheel back and forth going down the road with nothing happening. That was Bandit today. But I could use two hands riding off trail and one riding on. His steering was excellent with two hands.

Second concern: Bandit did turn, and there was no trouble rating his speed. We did some trots and a few canters. The last was a walk to canter transition just as I was trying to take a picture on my iPhone. I thought I had caught it and was wondering what it would look like...but I guess I didn't quite touch the button right. Maybe transitioning to a canter while holding $800 between two fingers had something to do with it! I got the phone back into my shirt pocket as we charged around the bend and up the final hill home. Welcome to my world. It isn't a world of flawless control of my horse. But I didn't try to stop him until we reached the top - and there was no trouble stopping him bitless when I did try.

It is just...Bandit is very opinionated. He's a bit uncertain about the 51:49% split between man & horse in decision making. It wouldn't take much for him to decide it ought to be 60:40 in favor of the horse! He's not a "Trooper". I'm not certain he won't decide to re-negotiate somewhere along the trail. A bit like this is almost as easy to eat in as bitless, offers more precision neck reining and might discourage untimely renegotiations in our contract:






I haven't given up on the bitless option. I'll try it some more, maybe alternating for a while between bit and bitless. It could be he just needs to get used to the feel of the hackamore. Or not. I think it is obvious I like and respect him but he isn't always the easiest horse to ride on or off trail. "Submission" is NOT his middle name! And yes, I'm partly to blame for that. I ride him in a flexible style.


----------



## gottatrot

That's what I've always found also, that there is a compromise. With a bitless setup you can have some pros, but add some cons too. With Halla, in the English hackamore she was also a little bit mushier with the steering and stopping than in a curb. Usually if I really need precise control, I put a bit in for those rides. 

My horses usually prefer a bitless style that works for them, why wouldn't they? Nothing in the mouth and easier to eat and perhaps swallow. So you have to decide if what you are getting from the bitless is good enough for the type of riding you plan to do. For me, I'm not someone who goes all or nothing. I might use a bitless option one day and a bit another, depending on what I need and the horse needs. For some horses, with mellow minds, they might never need that precise control, because they might always decide to try to understand what the rider is asking and make up the difference for the lack of precision. Others might take advantage. 

I certainly never feel that I _have_ to use a bit or bitless, as long as the device I am using is correct for what the horse needs and what I need on a particular ride. I don't buy into the idea that either one is ethically right or wrong, and that frees me up to use whatever works best on a certain day. I believe it is more wrong to use the wrong bitless for that particular horse (or the wrong bit), than it is to use one or the other. 

If you ever saw Amore in the wrong type of bitless (crossunder, or a loose sidepull that moved too much), you would believe I was torturing her. Same if I put her in a rubber bit. Or if you saw Hero in a "simple, gentle," double jointed snaffle, which he hates because of his sensitive tongue. He wrinkles his face, pins his ears, chomps, bares his teeth.


----------



## Knave

I don’t view it as right or wrong either @gottatrot. I view hands as right or wrong. Now, obviously there is a wrong for either way, which is rough and jerky, but I think there is a wrong for each individual way. I think a horse can be just as well broke and light bitless, but the hands are a little different than with a bit. The hands, although still light, require a bit more exaggeration bitless. My hands are wrong for that. I struggle with that exaggeration, and so I don’t prefer to ride bitless. I’m not good enough at it to make myself happy. Queen would enjoy bitless a lot. She is very soft and willing in a halter. I just don’t have the confidence in myself to do it, so I choose not to. 😊


----------



## bsms

Odd ride yesterday. The plantar fasciitis in my left foot finally healed but a few days ago I had a milder injury to my right foot. Still, if I get my foot twisted or pressure in the wrong way, then it feels like my foot is splitting. But for riding? I'll be on a horse, right? Not running....

So I took Bandit out with the bitless bridle. As I was tacking him up, I put my foot down somewhere and...lots of expletives. Decided to ride anyways. Limped along side of him to where we leave the pavement, mounted up and could NOT get my right foot into the stirrup! Trying to catch the stirrup and get my toe in felt like it was ripping my foot in half. I'm not a big fan of stirrupless riding. OK at times in the arena, but not out in the desert. But I had one foot in and decided to press. 

Bandit was nervy. It happens sometimes, but not ideal for helmetless, bitless and one stirrup only in the desert. He tried a high-stepping trot. Fine if I can stand in the stirrups but his "Blowing Off Steam" high trot is NOT for sitting. So I kicked him into a canter which was quite easy to ride. Still, the rocks and cactus sliding by looked pretty big to me. Stopped him and then finally twisted the stirrup 135 degrees out. That was enough for me to get my foot in but I had to keep my foot pointing out 60-90 degrees to prevent pain. In essence, my foot could hang in the stirrup that way but it couldn't take any pressure. So my right leg remained limp for the rest of the ride.

About a minutes later, we turned and some expletiving IDIOT had dropped two piles of trash on either side of the trail. _People are disgusting pigs!_ Bandit didn't care about the right pile, but the left? EVIL! SUICIDAL! As we got close he was about to break, so I turned him back and we retreated 50 feet. His vote was to go home. 

Turned him back. No good way around. Too much cactus. Thought he might be able to run between them so I hung on with one hand and kicked him in the belly. He jumped forward, then chose a very high, choppy trot. As we went between, his body tilted 45 degrees to the trail, dragging his hind feet thru the right pile while he twisted his head to keep snorting and blowing while staring at the evil left pile. But we got thru and I kicked him again to canter...'cuz his high, choppy trot was like a jackhammer on my back. Seriously, NO ONE would enjoy sitting that trot!

So we cantered a while. In fact, we cantered just about everywhere it was reasonably safe to do so. He was wound up. We reached where I wanted to turn around in record time and headed back. Took a long detour to avoid the trash piles. As we headed back uphill to the neighborhood, he wanted to canter. OK. Bitted or bitless, I'd have let him. The ground is uneven but he's usually good about things. He made it a fast canter, just below a racing canter and I was reminded how many large rocks stick out along that path. But...he's good at it and cantering was so much easier than his trotting!

When we reached a small rocky patch we normally walk, he switched to his high, choppy trot. I got mad. Sorry, but I was fed up with his antics. I started swearing and I think it was THAT more than the hackamore that got him to walk. By this time, I wasn't even thinking "bitless". I was treating him like he had a bit and in many ways that was how he behaved. When he realized I was ready and willing to make a fight of things, he walked. An unhappy _Arabian_ walk, but a walk.

I dismounted when we reached pavement. To my delight my foot only ached walking. It was a normal distance ride done in half the time. And I was too busy dealing with Bandit to spend much time thinking about safety, risk, no helmet and riding one legged while bitless. It would have been a rough ride for me with helmet, bit and both legs. Without? Yeah.

I've been thinking about it since. The good news was we dealt with it. But did the "freedom" of being bitless make it harder to bring him back down? When he raced, he raced in a bosal. Does Bandit think bitless means race? Do I need to ride him more bitless to get him to recalibrate? I really like the hackamore but....does Bandit? I stopped using the Dr Cook's because he seemed less confident in it. And I usually ride him with a lot more contact than _Bob_ wants because _Bandit_ seems to want it. Would more time bitless help him, or would it be unfair to Bandit?

I don't know. I'll say this, though - the boy has good balance and he NEVER stops thinking. He may not AGREE with me, but he NEVER loses his mind! _It is a glorious thing to have a horse who always stays aware of his surroundings_ - maybe TOO aware, but aware! - and who isn't going to run us into cactus or stop thinking about his footing! 

My foot is doing better today. It wasn't hurt as bad as my right one was a few years back. I probably won't jog for a few days but may try a ride this morning. If so, I'll use a simple curb and try to compare how Bandit behaves. I'd love to ride him bitless but he needs to have a vote too. After all, I'd be glad to ride him with slack reins but.... 😕 ...horses!


----------



## bsms

Came across this in a article about the Disease That Cannot Be Mentioned on HF - so I won't mention it or link to the article:

"_They’re engaging in what social psychologists call “effort justification,” which has been observed in studies of *painful initiation rituals* for fraternities and other groups. Once people endure the pain, they convince themselves that it must have been worthwhile even when their reward is actually worthless._"

I wonder how much conventional wisdom on how to ride is "effort justification"? The idea that riding without stirrups will teach one to get their heel down, or the very obsessive concern for "heels down", or the complex combination of cues for a canter and the entire attempt to use the reins to shape a horse's body...how much of that boils down to, _"I worked hard to learn it because my instructor said I should, and now I know all that effort and pain was worth it!_"? To what extent are many necessary skills in riding actually a painful initiation rite to prove one is worthy to join the equestrian fraternity?


----------



## bsms

Did a ride today using the solid, low-port curb bit. Took a lot longer because we didn't do as much running, and did a lot more eating - a good "Mounted Grazing" training ride.

My foot didn't hurt much and I was even able to put weight on it while riding if the trot didn't go over 10 seconds. So any longer trot? I asked for a canter. *But for most of today's ride, I could have changed Bandit's name to "Butter".*

He wasn't happy about the trash pile but as he got balky I asked him to run between them. And he _jogged_ between them without turning sideways. We took a different path, strolled out into the desert and wandered relaxed. I paid close attention to his grazing. I've been using a Billy Allen with him for a long time but I think the low port helped him to chew and swallow. He'd have a foot of grass sticking out both sides of his mouth but it would disappear in no time. 






Heading home, we took a shortcut he hadn't been on for a couple of years. He didn't appreciate the strange sight so I asked him for a little speed and we trotted until he felt better. That route gave us a longer path up the hill back to the neighborhood. I asked him to canter and he hauled butt up it...but without any frantic feeling to him. When I wanted him to slow, I said "Easy" and rotated my wrist for a half-inch of motion...and "Butter" slowed to a walk. But he wanted to canter again a hundred yards later so I said "Why not?" - and we cantered the remaining dirt trail. Relaxed canter.

There are a lot of reasons why today's ride might be different. I didn't need to leave my right leg hang limp. But I really think Bandit just feels better about life when the bit is there. It certainly doesn't affect his eating. So I think that will be my solution - a $30 solid, low port curb bit. We'll try the hackamore on Trooper. I could see him liking it. 

A shadow selfie. This is how I prefer to ride:






I'll also put in a plug for something I've tried the last couple of days and which helped keep me from dropping my phone yesterday:
















Amazon.com: Black Universal Cell Phone Lanyard with Adjustable Strap-Phone Necklace Comfortable Around The Neck, Compatible with All Smartphones-It is Multipurpose, Can Be Used for Badge and Key : Cell Phones & Accessories


Amazon.com: Black Universal Cell Phone Lanyard with Adjustable Strap-Phone Necklace Comfortable Around The Neck, Compatible with All Smartphones-It is Multipurpose, Can Be Used for Badge and Key : Cell Phones & Accessories



www.amazon.com




Seems to work great.


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## Knave

I’m glad it was better!

I think some horses take comfort in a bit. The fact he raced in a bosal taught him to run into nose pressure. I’m sure it’s confusing to expect differently. Much like a horse with a tie down, they learn to brace on the nose pressure for running.

Cash was a jerk when his noseband was loosened. I never rode a horse with a noseband before him, but I couldn’t stand the constant eating of his shanks. Once I changed back bridles and the noseband was tight again, he was far happier. I had no idea it would even have an effect on a horse!


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## egrogan

I like the idea of that lanyard because I'm just waiting for the day I drop the phone and Fizz steps on it. At the same time, I don't think I could take the bouncing on the...shelf...where it would sit 😉


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## gottatrot

I need something like the lanyard, but I was thinking about putting it around a belt loop, etc, and then keeping the phone in my pocket. I feel like my phone could come out of my back pocket, but if it had a safety strap that would be helpful. 

Regarding "necessary skills" in riding, a lot of unnecessary torture goes on. I have read stories of some who went to Germany to work with top instructors, and came back with terrible back pain from having to ride with a stiff back to please the instructor. Any riding that is not sustainable or injures you cannot be correct! 

When I had an instructor trying to teach me to two point, I would sit in my car after a lesson and my legs would be shaking from muscle fatigue. After a few years, I learned how to two point as an aerobic exercise and found that I could sustain it for very long periods of time without fatigue. What I needed to learn was not how to muscle myself into a position and hold it with all my strength, but how to two point using the horse's movement and in a natural standing position, jogging along with the horse's movement. So easy. But as you said, I thought since I was putting so much effort in, I would be certain to reap some rewards from it.

The idea of having the toes pointing forward is also so ridiculous. All I can imagine is some person with no thigh muscles and extreme flexibility decided that this should be the way for everyone to ride "properly." To achieve that position, most riders either have to torque their hip joint outward, or bend their knee or ankle out of anatomical alignment. Apparently the idea is to prevent the toe from twisting outward, so you have shock absorption through the ankle. But where that alignment is for each person is so individualized that instructors really should help each student find the correct angle individually.

One more I have heard so many times is that the back of your hand should be basically a flat surface aligned with your forearm. I've worked so hard on trying to ride with my hands like that. 








Only recently have I realized that the real reason I have difficulty riding like that is because it is an aesthetic, and out of natural alignment. Supposedly it gives a rider the proper "feel." That is hogwash. Our hands naturally are stronger when we pull with the hands tilted slightly outward at the wrist. You're not going to carry things or pull things with your fingers and thumb tilted in. You'll naturally put the center mass of your hand in front of your arm bones, which tilts the hand slightly outward. 
Western riders seem to understand this more than english ones.

















When people are really riding, they tend to naturally abandon the inward fingers.


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## bsms

Never heard the flat wrist thing. I've read I should hold reins in my FIST and not my fingers because my horse will rip them out of my fingers! Yeah, when pigs fly! I've also read that my fist is more sensitive than my finger tips, which is probably why we caress our lovers with...our fists? And sign our names with...our fists?

One I've heard about is doing two point no stirrups until you have thighs of iron. Seems the exact OPPOSITE of what I want. Gives me a mental picture of Arnold What's His Name gripping the poor horse between his thighs. 






OK. Sooo not me! I like the idea of my horse having bigger thighs than I do....


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## Knave

I am glad I didn’t grow up in your worlds! Lol. No one discusses these things. Showing there is a rule with a romal to not have a finger through. Now, if you don’t ride well like that, you can have split reins which require the finger through. Lol. I don’t believe there are any rules about holding snaffle reins, excepting a certain amount of rein between the two hands.

Now, for showing, sure I can tolerate those rules. Of course, I require a reminder about the no fingers through before I walk in.

Riding though, unless one is actively showing, no one mentions such things. Ride in the way you ride is pretty much the philosophy. Everyone has a bit of confirmation differences. I am bow legged and my feet point out. For me to try and straighten them, even just standing, it hurts. I can’t imagine trying to ride with them forward!

I have been riding with my heels down. On Cash I was always worried about falling, so I only put my toes into the stirrup, and naturally my heel is down. I’ve noticed on Queen, that sometimes I want to burry my foot. I always used to ride like that. I think I trust her athleticism, and I also fear it a little, and feet buried work better for that.

These are things no one would ever talk about in my world though. Can you get the job done? That’s all that matters. Now, if you showed poor horsemanship, and you were pulling on your horses head or beating on him, you might be talked about behind your back. Lol. You are pretty free to be yourself if you get the job done though.

I’ve noticed that I don’t tolerate people losing their temper with their horses well anymore. I think it’s often younger people I see doing it. At the branding we were at recently, one 16 year old was roping in the kids group (side note, I was proud my girls don’t rope in the kids group). This kid was green. He was missing, and then he would take it out on the horse he was on. I know the horse. He’s a good horse. I wanted so bad to pull him off that horse and teach him a lesson! My girls took the butt chewing they didn’t have coming for it. Luckily they were mad too. Lol.

Then the kid ran me over on that horse! I was on the rope, getting ready to drop the calf, and all the sudden I was being run over. Boy was it hard to not be mad!


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## Knave

Now, I should say, had it been an adult on that horse, throwing his tantrums, he would have been shamed. No one would have told him directly to stop, but everyone would have made fun of his roping and his horsemanship publicly. Then talked bad about him behind his back. Lol.

My girls did @gottatrot ‘s horsemanship quiz. On the question about how one reacts to such things, my oldest said “Where is the talk **** option?” I laughed so hard, because I thought the same thing when I took it!

I see girls do it on their barrel horses all the time too. At one of the last gymkhanas the girls competed in, this girl fell off her horse for absolutely no reason we could see. So, she gets back on and goes to slapping him in the back of the head. We were all so disgusted.

Just like the kid at the branding, I wonder why parents allow such things. If it were my kid, they would be pulled off the horse in front of everyone. Then, I would buy the meanest rankest horse I could find, and he would teach them to mind their manners… parent people!


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## bsms

When I took lessons, the lady teaching it had a WP background - although she had stopped showing years before. None of the students getting group lessons were planning on competing, though. Her lessons were pretty basic and more towards working with a horse than position. Learning mostly on my own, I read a lot of books - and western riders just don't write much! So it was mostly English riding rules. And they seemed to have a lot of them. 

I understand certain things are needed to show or to compete in certain events. It is like the sequence for telling a horse to canter. On a trail, I just let Bandit know I want to go faster. But if I wanted to win a show, I'd need to have him give a smooth canter depart at an exact moment in time and place, and on the correct lead for which ever way we were about to turn. So developing a feel for when the horse CAN immediately transition is good for competition, while I just let Bandit figure it out. And his explosions into a canter would get us laughed out of the arena. They work really well, though, in deep sand or where the footing means he needs to land already in a full canter.

I often have a hard time realizing how many people don't own their own horse, or how many live to compete is some sort of show or competition - NOT including "Mounted Grazing", which Bandit in his heart is CERTAIN exists somewhere!

Another example I've heard is that your hand should NEVER cross over your horse's neck. It seems some people have horses who are confused by it. Mine don't blink an eye if I do, but it would be tough to ride with one hand and never cross Bandit's neck.


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## Knave

So, cowboy rules exist too. You cannot cut someone off. That is the biggest one. If you do you are looking for a fight and doing it with full intention of insulting someone. You turn and face the person getting the gate. There are lots of rules like that. They are courtesy.

Other than those rules, pretty much it really is get the job done. I don’t care what your departure looked like if you were running to get a cow back. You simply better come back with that cow. Now, different places have different types of desires in how you do that. Lots would prefer you not just rope her, but either way bring her back.

No one cares what you look like. Now, if you look particularly good you might get talked about in a good way. Maybe just the horse will get credit… lol


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## TrainedByMares

bsms said:


> Did a ride today using the solid, low-port curb bit. Took a lot longer because we didn't do as much running, and did a lot more eating - a good "Mounted Grazing" training ride.
> 
> My foot didn't hurt much and I was even able to put weight on it while riding if the trot didn't go over 10 seconds. So any longer trot? I asked for a canter. *But for most of today's ride, I could have changed Bandit's name to "Butter".*
> 
> He wasn't happy about the trash pile but as he got balky I asked him to run between them. And he _jogged_ between them without turning sideways. We took a different path, strolled out into the desert and wandered relaxed. I paid close attention to his grazing. I've been using a Billy Allen with him for a long time but I think the low port helped him to chew and swallow. He'd have a foot of grass sticking out both sides of his mouth but it would disappear in no time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Heading home, we took a shortcut he hadn't been on for a couple of years. He didn't appreciate the strange sight so I asked him for a little speed and we trotted until he felt better. That route gave us a longer path up the hill back to the neighborhood. I asked him to canter and he hauled butt up it...but without any frantic feeling to him. When I wanted him to slow, I said "Easy" and rotated my wrist for a half-inch of motion...and "Butter" slowed to a walk. But he wanted to canter again a hundred yards later so I said "Why not?" - and we cantered the remaining dirt trail. Relaxed canter.
> 
> There are a lot of reasons why today's ride might be different. I didn't need to leave my right leg hang limp. But I really think Bandit just feels better about life when the bit is there. It certainly doesn't affect his eating. So I think that will be my solution - a $30 solid, low port curb bit. We'll try the hackamore on Trooper. I could see him liking it.
> 
> A shadow selfie. This is how I prefer to ride:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll also put in a plug for something I've tried the last couple of days and which helped keep me from dropping my phone yesterday:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amazon.com: Black Universal Cell Phone Lanyard with Adjustable Strap-Phone Necklace Comfortable Around The Neck, Compatible with All Smartphones-It is Multipurpose, Can Be Used for Badge and Key : Cell Phones & Accessories
> 
> 
> Amazon.com: Black Universal Cell Phone Lanyard with Adjustable Strap-Phone Necklace Comfortable Around The Neck, Compatible with All Smartphones-It is Multipurpose, Can Be Used for Badge and Key : Cell Phones & Accessories
> 
> 
> 
> www.amazon.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seems to work great.



I like the lanyard idea, since I'm always reaching in my pocket for my phone to take pictures. I dont think I would hang it around my neck though.


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## bsms

Good ride on Bandit today. If I ask him to increase speed, he often prefers to offer a canter. And I really enjoy cantering. But: If he is cantering and clips a rock sticking out of the ground, or just below the sand in the wash, the result could be very bad for both of us. And we only have short sections of trail that are even that good.

Today I tried to modulate it and get him to trot instead of canter. He seemed a bit surprised but started to adjust. A trot would work to improve his wind AND lets us cover a lot more ground than a walk but does so in a way where he is less likely to trip. He can trot well even in uneven ground that even Bandit doesn't want to canter on. Realistically, he could trot on 80-90% of the places we go without serious risk to either of us.

A side benefit: When we got to the place heading uphill to home, he was willing to trot and did so without getting worked up or excited. He finished the ride mentally relaxed.

So I'm going to work hard at getting him to trot as a regular part of riding - maybe as our PRIMARY way of riding. We could still stop for mounted grazing practice but trotting - or even a nice jog - would cover the ground and it seems to do so without winding Bandit up. A mile of jogging would be better for his conditioning than a couple of 50-100 yard long canters.


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## Knave

They say trotting is better for conditioning than loping anyways. I think the saying is “trot to build a horse up, lope to tear him down.” Their mind works best at a trot, and I agree that they are less likely to stumble.


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## bsms

I had heard this idea referenced before but came across its origins:

"_*We are like dwarves sitting on the shoulders of giants. We see more, and things that are more distant, than they did, not because our sight is superior or because we are taller than they, but because they raise us up, and by their great stature add to ours.*_"

It comes from John of Salisbury in Metalogicon (1159), quoting philosopher Bernard of Chartres. Over 800 years later, it is still true. 









Why do we say On the shoulders of giants?


On the shoulders of giants: The source of this phrase and how to use it.




www.bookbrowse.com





The Wife is visiting her family in the Philippines. It is her first trip back in 30 years - kids and my frequent deployments were an obstacle, and then her ticket was cancelled when COVID hit just before she could travel. I'm home, taking care of the dogs and horses by myself thru the end of June. And I have a confession:

I'm SOOOOOO glad someone invented the microwave!
🤠 🤠 🤠​


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## TrainedByMares

Haha! I use the microwave oven alot when I am cooking for myself! 
Every morning it heats my mug of water for instant coffee,too! 

Now don't knock the old tech,though. Here's a pic of my 'amish microwave'. I can have a can of soup heated up in 7 minutes and that's including building the fire!


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## bsms

That's spectacular. My wife would be SOOOOO jealous. She'd love something like that!

Just back from a ride with Bandit. I'm still struggling with plantar fasciitis in my right foot. The good news? He's figuring out trotting is now my preferred "faster than walk" gait. The bad news? Maybe it is his racing days, but he assumes trotting means trotting fast and hard - like riding a sewing machine! Not going to sit it and can't post fast enough so I was "standing in the stirrups" while my right foot was in pain with every stride. 

But we trotted in lots of places I wouldn't have dared to canter and he quickly caught on we were going to keep going for a while. He can trot along a side of a gully and just feels stable. Even if he clipped a rock I think we could both ride it out. He didn't act winded and didn't complain. We're going to do a lot more of it because it covers ground fast and is good for us both. I hadn't realized how much more aggressive he is trotting in on an open trail than in the arena! But that is a good thing. It also seemed good for his mind. It didn't take long to blow the boogers off his mind and get him feeling relaxed mentally even while moving fast physically. It was a good ride. If riding a sewing machine is good.... 🤣 

PS: He did spook a little at one spot, shifting sideways then sliding into a canter. I let him canter for a hundred yards just because it felt so much better on my foot! But when I asked him to slow, he went back to a trot and acting alert but not worried. Good times. And I might try a shorter stirrup next time. The setting now is best for me walking or cantering but a little long for sustained two point.


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## Knave

I have a brace for the plantar fasciitis that helps a lot. It’s like a compression sock type thing without toes but a bit more extreme. You could try that.


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## gottatrot

Yes, take care of the plantar fasciitis. DH has had a chronic case for years, and eventually it turned into scar tissue in the feet, so there's really nothing they can do to help it. Some people have it turn into a chronic problem. For most it is acute and goes away. I've had it a couple of times, and had it go away quickly. When we have been on trips with lots of hiking, it has helped for him to use tape support. Lengthwise along the plantar fascia with a couple strips across ball and heel is what he did. It might help some with the pain during riding?









My riding friends told me a few years ago that I needed a toaster oven. It's a nice supplement to the microwave, since it can make grilled cheese. DH called it my "easybake oven" because it makes a ding when the timer is done.


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## bsms

I've been looking at bodyweight exercises and one "exercise" that seems to be gaining popularity is the "Asian squat". The fascia under the foot connects to the fascia in the calf and then to the hamstring. Some people discussing stretching argue one needs to think about stretching the leg from hip to toe, which would then loosen up the fascia under the foot. Since the injury, I've tried working on it - and I do mean baby steps since I've never been that flexible. I find it seems to help with the pain as much as anything and an added benefit would be a more flexible heel. So I've been working on it and maybe it will help. Feels like it is.




My son told me I'm getting old and need to take it easy. "*Get thee behind me, Satan!*" (Matthew 16:23). The older I get, the HARDER I need to work. This video from the same guy makes the same point:




I've made progress. Maybe I'll never be GOOD at it, but the older I get, the _more_ I need to push myself. It is easy to be in shape in one's 20s, but time isn't kind! BTW - what he mentions is a bit like getting dieting advice from a fat doctor. If you want to know how to be successful at something, it helps to learn from someone who has actually done it! Failures are good at offering excuses....

One nice thing about YouTube is someone like me can find advice from therapists and athletes and coaches who have done things versus hearing someone say, "_Relax and enjoy your 'Golden Years'!_" Time is going to win in the end, but he's going to have a fight on his hands!


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## bsms

There is a thread right now called "_Loose Shirts ok?_" I fully understand the OP's concern. It involves English riding at a "barn". But I guess I'm surprised at some of the responses. It reminds me why I'm a trail rider and not a show rider! I realize an instructor or judge might have issues judging your riding if you are wearing a burka, but just a loose fitting shirt? I've struggled with weight my entire life. I know full well how it feels to go to the beach and keep one's shirt ON the entire time. Still feel that way actually - and frankly, wish others did as well! Not everybody needs spandex at the beach, or a small swim suit!

But to feel like I needed close fitting clothes for a ride? I really WOULD give up riding if that was the case! Besides, where would I put my Leatherman tool (with pliers for pulling cactus) and my phone and my camera and my knife...

It is a reminder that my life with horses has almost nothing to do with how and why many others ride. Bandit strolling along with a foot of dried grass stick out both sides of his mouth...what WOULD people think!





​If gas wasn't $4.50+/gallon, I might buy an English saddle to do some riding for fun. It is a bit harder to justify putting more $$$ into the horses when their 80 lb sacks of pellets have gone from $14 to $22! But if I ever do try my hand at English riding again, it will probably be more like this this than breeches and form fitting clothes:


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## knightrider

Me too, @bsms, ME TOO! I ride in whatever I have that is old and shabby because it won't be long before it looks old and shabby if I fool with horses in it, so I might as well start out that way. Fortunately for me, I live in a rural cracker part of Florida where everyone else rides in old and shabby too. Why mess up something nice anyway? So, loose, tight, too long, too short, who cares. Used tack from yard sales, boots from flea markets or thrift stores. We have a lot of fun.


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## bsms

Knave said:


> It’s like a compression sock type thing without toes but a bit more extreme. You could try that.


Tried it. Amazon delivered yesterday morning. Did a 3.7 mile run in them and it worked well. Did stretching for my calves after the run and managed both the run and the recovery with no sharp pain. Only some dull ache an hour after the run, but "dull ache" is my idea of stressing something, while sharp pain is "tearing" something. Stressing without tearing is what I want.

Used one on my foot today riding and it helped. Shortened my stirrups and tried two point more out of the saddle. I tried to concentrate on using my legs as springs. The balance for that is different than with the longer stirrups or in the arena in a continuous turn. I need to fold my body a little more and get my rump a little more back and my stirrups a little in front of what they were designed in the Abetta. Used my free hand on the horn in the more uneven spots. Any side to side motion felt awkward higher up. But when I got it right, I could _feel_ the shock absorbing effect in my legs. Bandit responded well to it.

Then relaxed and we rode with me sitting using shorter than normal stirrups for me - not short, just shorter than the "barely keep my feet in" position I've normally used on trails. It makes me feel more vulnerable to a spook but he did a hard spook with zero warning...and I stayed on without even thinking. The spook was over in two seconds. I don't think _Bandit_ knew what he spooked at - but it was hard, sideways...and the shorter stirrups did me no harm at all.

He rode between the double trash pile (I need to take the truck out and haul it away!) at a walk heading out. First time at a walk. Coming home, same trash but opposite direction? _TOO SCARY!_ So I turned him into the desert for a detour. It was a tough detour, twisting constantly between the cactus to thread a path. Add gullies and Bandit worked hard. We rejoined the trail 20 feet past the double trash and...he was just glad we avoided it. Then while walking a section coming home he spooked again - again sideways, hard...and for what? Darn if I know! But the shorter stirrups again had zero effect on staying on and in control.

He then wanted to trot so I decided I'd practice my sitting trot. Something I almost never do. My wife will be on Medicare in July. Good thing because practicing sitting out his nervous trot was probably hard on my long term fertility...but I think The Wife and I are waayyyyyy past that point anyways! 🤠 My back end was pounding his back and his back was pounding my back end and...we did a quarter mile of that before he was ready to settle. Welcome to my world.

So a good ride in many ways. I need to work on two point using the shorter setting. There is a different balance there and I didn't quite get it today except for short times where everything DID click. He seems to accept trotting as a good alternative, my compressed foot handled things fine and I think we are safer trotting than cantering.


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## Knave

I’m so glad it worked for you!


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## bsms

And...the double trash pile will leave when my trash is picked up tomorrow. Filled an 80 gallon can but I have 3 and can afford the room this week. 

Now when Bandit sees they are gone? 50:50 chance:


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## Knave

I moved the bicycles to mow today around these trees. They were maybe three feet from where they normally sit. Queen said it was definitely aliens.


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## tinyliny

I haven't read all the recent posts, but I'm hearing that you have plantar fasciatis? I had that (still do , in a sense) where i had to work hard at treating it for two solid years. I was not, am not, a runner. But, the use of too soft shoes had become the beginning of the problem. It was the compression , squeeze and rebound of soft soles, like those in Croc shoes, that caused the beginning of PF. I eventually tried . . . rotating shoe types, store-bought shoe inserst, custom made orthotics (2 sets by dif docs) , steroid injections in the heel, a walking cast, night socks, massage, stretching, oral NSAIDS . . . . . and stuff I can't remember.

What worked? GOOD custom orthotics by very good sports med doc. NO Birkenstocks, no flip-flops. Icing sole of foot by rolling ti over frozen bottle of water when just sitting at computer. Stretchs. no barefoot walking. and, (and this was critical) wearing Haflinger slippers around the house! These are German slippers that have a shaped sole made of compressed wool. I LIVE in them indoors.

Now, i was never a runner. But, i think you will have to consider really getting down and working to get better using all methods at your disposal. That includes REST. You may have to stop running for several months, maybe half a year. You may have to use bike riding as your for of cardio fitness. If you do not do what is necessary to get it truly better, it will become a really entrenched problem. Once it heals, you will alwaays have to respect it, and 'listen' if it starts to talk back to you.

As to the 'Asian squats" . . . my knees can no longer compress that tightly. when I was young, I could do that all day, but not now. I will leave that to the Asians.


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## bsms

I don't think I'll have to quit running, @tinyliny . When I had it in my left foot a few years back, it took a couple of years to truly heal - and I kept jogging. The compression socks @Knave recommended are working pretty good but I may need to stick to pavement for a while.

I rode Bandit further west this morning than we've ever gone solo. We crossed a wash and turned back for today, after he descended and then a short time later climbed out here:






I went jogging there later today and then walked the area to the west. The ATV trail there is so darn rocky that it killed my foot! By the time I got to smoother ground, it was throbbing and I had to limp 1.75 miles back home. I'll need to think about what to do if Bandit and I keep heading west into that section. It has potential but is SOOO rocky and rough, in spite of looking like a good place to ride:






Nothing in the bottom picture shows what it is like on foot. So pushing into it probably means going off-trail to spare Bandit's feet. Even with hoof boots, I don't think he'd like it. I certainly didn't like it on MY foot. But...on paved road, I can jog at about an 8:30 pace without aggravating my plantar fasciitis. So I may be a paved road kind of runner for 6 months.

I really think stretching will be a big part of recovery. YouTube recommended this video in the sidebar. I tried it using a 30 lb dumbbell and later a 20 lb dumbell and it worked GREAT. This morning, I could touch my toes with almost straight legs, something I've never been able to do - after just one day:





And after a couple of hours of rest, my sore foot isn't sore any more. So it is recovering. And I used it a lot on this morning's ride!


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## bsms

So I rode Bandit this morning, once again trying the slightly shorter stirrups setting. It worked fine. Might be my imagination, but the hamstring stretch in the video above seemed to give me a looser leg from the start of the ride, which is a good thing:






I confess I get a bit uptight when English instructors tell people learning English that slack reins will cause you to over-control the horse after the horse does something wrong because you weren't in constant communication via the bit. That is just stupid! First, people over-control and over-react when they feel scared and threatened by their horse - which can happen (or not) with or without contact! And second, if you have an independent seat, you won't over-react when your horse squirts sideways or ahead. You just won't. The idea that a horse NEEDS constant contact to know what you are thinking just doesn't match reality. Yes, Bandit likes more contact than my other horses, but we can do a lot together riding with one hand on the reins and mild slack!






Going off trail to save h is feet and give him more to think about. Behind the trees and just above his left ear is the water tank that provides the water for all the community here. It sometimes makes gurgling noises but Bandit now accepts the idea that it cannot chase him...






This is at the north edge of Canter Heaven. It is one of our most used places to climb out of the wash. The barely visible house is a 3500 sq ft behemoth that we usually avoid.

We crossed the road and I rode Bandit down into the wash there as mentioned in the previous post. I used to walk him because the bottom was a V with sharp rocks in the V. Tough on the horses. Increasing population has brought more ATVs, and the bottom is now a U without rocks - at the crossing point. But I took a good look when on foot and it has rocks everywhere except the ATV trail.






Coming back, I tried to get photos of the hawks. When I had the camera out and on, they were further away. I'd swear they were watching me because every time I put the camera away, they came floating by about 15 feet away. And I'm pretty sure they were LAUGHING at me! But they don't normally spend time quite so low! Bandit ignored them. As usual, wildlife seems to accept me more if I'm on a horse.






We strolled here coming home. We trotted it going out. It is the best place for a short canter of gallop but we did a lot of trotting heading out and I wanted Bandit to feel calm and relaxed going home. Which he was. It was 90 degrees out and I hosed him down when he was back in the corral. He loved it and the other two horses came by to be rinsed off too. Then, of course, they rolled in the dirt. But for one brief moment...they were clean.


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## gottatrot

Interesting rides!


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## bsms

We emphasized trotting today. I have compromised and switched part way thru the ride to longer stirrups because while the shorter setting made it easier to flow with him for performance, it also made it easier for me to slide way forward when he suddenly slows or shifts gears due to the uneven footing - something he needs to be able to do. A longer setting gives me more security and stability (more thigh contact) without totally giving up the shock-absorbing action of my legs.

We cut across a section of desert I hadn't tried before. Now I know why. We did a LOT of twisting and turning to find narrow paths between stands of cactus.

We also stopped a lot for mesquite. The beans are finally showing up. He LOVES mesquite beans:






He sometimes struggles to feel the actual group of bean pods on his own so I spent some time - GREATLY APPRECIATED - leaning forward to help him feel the beans with his lips. Mounted grazing indeed!

I did ask him to canter returning back thru Canter Heaven and he hauled butt (his and mine) for that short distance. REALLY hauled butt! Maybe that is why one definition of "full of beans" is "_Lively, energetic, in high spirits, as in The children were full of beans today, looking forward to their field trip. *This expression has no valid explanation.* [c. 1840]_"

No valid explanation? They should have tried RIDING Bandit on the return leg. It was like having an 850 pound kid on a sugar high! Not mean but energy oozing out of his skin!

Just looked it up:

"_Mesquite pods also make an appealing alternative for those who are trying to avoid eating grains or refined sugars. They are not only very high in protein (when compared to grains), they are gluten-free, low fat and rich in fiber. *High in fructose*, the diabetic-friendly sugar that can work to help maintain blood sugar while sweetening up a dish, they are also packed full of minerals and are high in calcium, magnesium, potassium, iron and zinc, making for a nourishing ingredient that is starting to pique the interests of adventurous eaters._"

BTW, I'd dispute the idea that fructose is in any way "diabetic friendly". I'm convinced diabetics (Type 2) need to get away from relying on carbs as an energy source, particularly very easily used sugars like fructose. But yeah, our return trip was like a kid "full of beans"!


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## bsms

This reply to SueC seemed to keep growing and it a bit off topic to her journal so I'm posting it here. 



SueC said:


> Lots of walking and hiking, and Pilates.


My back issues are due to a back injury when Mia exploded during a dismount in Jan 2009 and...well, being 64 and staying active. Since 2009 my back has been very susceptible to any jarring motion. Since I took up riding in 2008, much of HOW I ride is rooted in how I can ride, not how a healthy person ought to ride!

People have told me not to run, but jogging (and walking) really seems to help loosen and firm my back. Sitting kills it, so the movement is important. I've also had an issue with plantar fasciitis this last month. Took a week off of jogging and almost no riding and my foot got WORSE, so went back to jogging daily and my foot is almost healed. Movement is so important. But it needs to be very balanced movement. Any limping motion while jogging will punish my back AND my foot.

Never tried Pilates. It looks interesting but I'd want some instruction and not sure I want to drive 30 miles one way for a class. However, Amazon had a TRX Suspension training thing on a huge sale and I tried it - initially using a door and later a ceiling suspension and more recently swapped to rings. There are knock-off versions selling for $40-50. I suspect it is closer to Pilates in spirit than weights at a gym. It's a long trip to the nearest gym and gyms seem oriented (for guys at least) toward building bulging muscles, which has nothing to do with either my genetics or goals. I'd throw in an Internet picture to help anyone not familiar with TRX as a concept, but Internet pictures of exercise always involves people who don't look remotely like I look doing things I can't come close to doing.

But bodyweight exercises, particularly those that don't start at 100% of one's weight, seem to help with strengthening and stretching the smaller, supporting muscles so critical to minor things like MOVING. I've never understood wanting huge biceps, but I _really_ don't understand having huge biceps if you will injure your elbow because the supporting muscles and tendons are not as strong as the bicep. I've no desire to climb a cliff with or without a rope, but the athleticism of rock climbers impresses me far more - and strength without extra weight is far more relevant to riding horses. Or jogging. Or simply "_moving while old_", which along with "_mounted grazing_" seems to be my major athletic pursuit.

That, and "_Carry 80 pound sacks of horse pellets from the truck to the back porch because Trooper won't survive on hay alone_". Never seen it on ESPN but it seems like an athletic event to me...🤣


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## Knave

I too have back problems from a wreck on Partner. The spine in my lower back is twisted around. A chiropractor tried to fix it, but ended up dislocating my hip (normal for me), and refused to work on it any more.

Riding and running help my back. The combo is excellent. If I haven’t done either for a couple days, my back gets awful. If I have been consistent, my back is not noticeable at all. So, my dedication is required rather than of a strong will. Lol

I’ve noticed the more in shape I get, the more I require. That is not true of riding, but of working out. When I first started running, it took a mile for me to level out. Now, I level out closer to three miles. So, my short runs stick around there, and the long runs seem magical for my mind. After seven miles my mind is clear and my anxiety dissipates, my memory is improved in the following days.

When I am not training for a half, I like a program my friend bought me for my birthday. Beachbody on Demand. I like Shaun T’s exercise programs. I prefer Max:30 over Insanity, and there are a couple dance programs of his that are just fun. I don’t think you can jump into Shaun T’s programs without a decent fitness level. He does body weight exercises, and he will trash you. Lol

There are a lot of other programs on there as well, but because of being dedicated to running, I don’t feel I’ve had the time to play around with the others. After the races this weekend, I plan on letting my body recover from all the running and focusing on muscle during the summer. I like to run two or three days a week and do something from Beachbody two or three days.

For the last few months I’ve been strictly running, and I find myself to be out of pain and have great endurance, but I am a bit weaker than I like to be. It takes more effort to flip calves and that type of thing, and my weight has dropped by ten pounds. It looks appealing I guess, but I like having the muscle on for power.


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## SueC

bsms said:


> This reply to SueC seemed to keep growing and it a bit off topic to her journal so I'm posting it here.
> 
> 
> 
> My back issues are due to a back injury when Mia exploded during a dismount in Jan 2009 and...well, being 64 and staying active. Since 2009 my back has been very susceptible to any jarring motion. Since I took up riding in 2008, much of HOW I ride is rooted in how I can ride, not how a healthy person ought to ride!
> 
> People have told me not to run, but jogging (and walking) really seems to help loosen and firm my back. Sitting kills it, so the movement is important. I've also had an issue with plantar fasciitis this last month. Took a week off of jogging and almost no riding and my foot got WORSE, so went back to jogging daily and my foot is almost healed. Movement is so important. But it needs to be very balanced movement. Any limping motion while jogging will punish my back AND my foot.
> 
> Never tried Pilates. It looks interesting but I'd want some instruction and not sure I want to drive 30 miles one way for a class. However, Amazon had a TRX Suspension training thing on a huge sale and I tried it - initially using a door and later a ceiling suspension and more recently swapped to rings. There are knock-off versions selling for $40-50. I suspect it is closer to Pilates in spirit than weights at a gym. It's a long trip to the nearest gym and gyms seem oriented (for guys at least) toward building bulging muscles, which has nothing to do with either my genetics or goals. I'd throw in an Internet picture to help anyone not familiar with TRX as a concept, but Internet pictures of exercise always involves people who don't look remotely like I look doing things I can't come close to doing.
> 
> But bodyweight exercises, particularly those that don't start at 100% of one's weight, seem to help with strengthening and stretching the smaller, supporting muscles so critical to minor things like MOVING. I've never understood wanting huge biceps, but I _really_ don't understand having huge biceps if you will injure your elbow because the supporting muscles and tendons are not as strong as the bicep. I've no desire to climb a cliff with or without a rope, but the athleticism of rock climbers impresses me far more - and strength without extra weight is far more relevant to riding horses. Or jogging. Or simply "_moving while old_", which along with "_mounted grazing_" seems to be my major athletic pursuit.
> 
> That, and "_Carry 80 pound sacks of horse pellets from the truck to the back porch because Trooper won't survive on hay alone_". Never seen it on ESPN but it seems like an athletic event to me...🤣


That all sounds eminently sensible to me. Yes, I think with horses and people, humans do types of training that actually cause problems through creating imbalance (and this includes modern competitive dressage, ill-fitting equipment, ill-considered if fashionable training programmes, not considering individual differences, rushing things, riding like a sack of potatoes, lifting weights to be like Arnie, aiming at appearance rather than function, etc).

Pilates is about function and flexibility, and working only against the body's own weight, as in nature, and listening to your body and pushing enough but not excessively. Weights and resistance aren't the enemy, but need to not be excessive and imbalanced. I really liked the Asian squat clip you posted the other day. Brett can do that no sweat, I have longer legs and tight hamstrings and can get there, at the moment with my feet turned out so they can be flat on the floor, but gradually I plan on shifting this. Thanks for that clip, it motivated me and gave me a fun thing to incorporate into my much-neglected groundwork!

Oh yeah, and the most apt description I ever heard of Arnie is, "...a condom full of walnuts"...

Also, funny how competitive dressage horses seem to be a major market for remedial therapy like equine massage, chiropractors, Tibetan yak tears etc etc. If it was like Pilates they would not need remedial therapy afterwards.


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## SueC

bsms said:


> "_Mesquite pods also make an appealing alternative for those who are trying to avoid eating grains or refined sugars. They are not only very high in protein (when compared to grains), they are gluten-free, low fat and rich in fiber. *High in fructose*, the diabetic-friendly sugar that can work to help maintain blood sugar while sweetening up a dish, they are also packed full of minerals and are high in calcium, magnesium, potassium, iron and zinc, making for a nourishing ingredient that is starting to pique the interests of adventurous eaters._"
> 
> BTW, I'd dispute the idea that fructose is in any way "diabetic friendly". I'm convinced diabetics (Type 2) need to get away from relying on carbs as an energy source, particularly very easily used sugars like fructose. But yeah, our return trip was like a kid "full of beans"!


Yeah, one huge problem is that people who try to sell you something tend to talk about how "natural" something is and then take it completely out of its natural context. You're right about the fructose compared to glucose, and I'm sure you've seen That Sugar Film already. Like other sugars now, fructose is industrially produced and extracted and then shoved into processed food. That's a completely different thing to having it as part of its source. So go ahead and eat a mesquite pod, as is, without extracting the sugar and discarding the rest - ditto sugar cane. Those are high in sugar, but if you have to eat the whole thing (as a human, with our omnivore teeth) you won't be getting as much sugar as you'd think, plus you've got fibre etc to go with it. Ever chewed on sugar cane? Don't spit out any, eat the fibre - and you won't eat much! 

Of course, modern sugar cane is bred up to have a far higher sugar content than naturally occurs in the ancestral cane. The same is true for a lot of supermarket fruits, tomatoes, etc. This is why I grow heirloom varieties - and why I don't add any sugar to my (home-grown apples) apple pie crust or filling, etc, and interestingly, the vast majority of people who eat with us don't feel the absence of added sugar from most of our food, or complain about the low sugar levels, or indeed the wholemeal everything (then again, our guests tend to be health-conscious hippie types like us).

So for hunter-gatherers, sugar-containing things like fruit, mesquite pods, Australian Christmas Tree blossom, etc, weren't a main part of their diet or indeed widely available to them, they were like "the cherry on top" and a welcome little burst of energy in a super-active lifestyle. Industrial humans surround themselves with sugar-added processed non-foods while at the same time having sedentary lifestyles of body and brain, and then wonder why they get so many problems...

If you're already diabetic then it's good to be extra careful with sugars, but if you eat and move like a hunter-gatherer then it's unlikely to be an issue even in that case...we're so far from that nowadays...a little better at our house though and we don't have the standard health problems most people our age have. I have a preexisting back injury, a bit of arthritis, a lifelong susceptibility to respiratory infections (but not to infections in general), better bone density than the average 18-25-year-old, better flexibility than the average 18-25-year-old Westerner (which is a low bar these days), can walk 25km no dramas, etc. One does have to work harder at maintaining condition as one gets older, but it's still doable. And as a family friend who lived to age 100 (and died in her sleep in her own home where she still lived independently) said, "Never stop using it - body or brain - or you will lose it."

ETA re the post above: Brett is built a bit like a Japanese person, has extra-flexible muscles and skin, and has always been physically active. He can squat comfortably with his feet flat on the ground just like is common in Asian cultures - Westerners tend to lose it after childhood because of sitting in chairs a lot, being inactive, not working on flexibility, not needing to get on and off the ground as part of their everyday lives etc. Here we were on a hike and he just did this spontaneously to stretch his muscles, without giving it any thought. I was impressed at how easy it was for him and just took a snap.


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## bsms

Tried another variation in tack. I found my old full sized sheepskin. Combined it with shorter stirrups since, in theory, the sheepskin along my thighs should provide added security while still allowing me to get further out of the saddle. That is what happened. I can get far enough out to fully use my legs for shock absorbing in a trot while still feeling stable since my "butt velcro" becomes "thigh velcro". We pushed through some thick brush (cutting my hand) and dropped into the wash further south than we normally ever go. Turned north. Bandit felt like a trot and he kept it up - a high trot to compensate for the deep sand - and we did our longest sustained trot to date. Very easy to use my legs and it felt very safe and stable with no desire to hold the horn. He seemed to feel happy too, keeping up a high trot without any urging for the entire distance. Only slowed to turn and climb out of the wash.

End of ride. Saddle and pad were well pollinated! The extended sheepskin IS hot, but I'll trade some sweat in exchange for feeling stable and secure while above the saddle.


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## bsms

Short but odd ride on Bandit today. Short because it was 94 degrees at 0830, not a cloud in the sky nor a breath of a breeze. IOW? 
*HOT!*​
So I planned a short & quick ride. We did a longer than average trot heading along the ATV road. With practice, I'm getting better at balancing above his back and actively flexing my legs to absorb motion. But he has the freedom to put on the brakes if he thinks it is needed, so a hand near the horn may still be a player!

He had more trouble eating mesquite beans off the tree than he used to do. But he had a few short visits to the candy store. As we headed south into the wash, we discovered...FRESH horse poop! Unheard of! I don't think I've encountered another rider in the desert while riding Bandit. But I wasn't planning a long ride so we did a quick canter south, then turned around and trotted north again. As we stated climbing out of the wash, Bandit spun, legs spread at odd angles on different levels of ground, back rigid. I knew what he had to be looking for but didn't want him to do any reactions while sprawled across the steep slope, so I kicked him - hard - twice in the gut. He then agreed to climb the rest of the way out and turn to look while on level ground.

I spotted them. Two riders. They were likely to pass along the wash just below us, no more than 30 yards away. Bandit's back was rigid, taking deep breathes and staring intently. There was a little brush between us, but I could see them easily and hear them talking. Younger man and woman. Their horses seemed unaware of us. So I called out loudly and waved. "_Hello! Good morning!_"

Not a flicker. Not from the horses. Not from the riders. Not even a turned ear. There was a little brush but we had to be highlighted, silhouetted against the sky. But nothing. Bandit was ready to fight or flee. He obviously does NOT like strange horses! But nothing. 30 yards tops and below us.

Weird.

Once they were past, I turned Bandit and we headed home. He was concerned for a few minutes but the strange horses didn't appear behind us, galloping with guns blazing, so he finally gave a big sigh. And we strolled the short distance back to paved roads.

He demanded a long and thorough face rub at end of ride. Maybe the heat, or maybe he thought he did a great job of keeping me safe. I gave it to him. It was one of those rides where he did everything the way I wanted him to. I'm happy for him to be a little hyper-alert. Sure beats him strolling by without even noticing other horses and riders. He's a little weird. I certainly ride weird. But we're a matched pair. A _weird_ matched pair, but a matched pair! Works for me. 🤠


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## gottatrot

Unless those were ghost riders, it seems very unhelpful and unhorsemanlike to not respond to your greeting. All the horses involved would be more relaxed if they heard people's voices calling back and forth.


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## egrogan

@gottatrot, I’ve had a rider (my neighbor down the road) ride right past me and act like I wasn’t even there when I said hello to her directly 😳 I think this woman is a little scared of her own horse, and also thinks Fizz is wild because she saw Fizz spook past her house once when her horses in the round pen surprised us while we were riding by. So even though I was so close I could have reached out and shook her hand, I think she believed if she acted like I wasn’t there, the horses would ignore each other too. You know Fizz, she’s certainly a wild hellion…


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## bsms

Some good news: The plantar fasciitis in my right foot is almost gone. But it has me thinking. My lower back pain doesn't feel like muscle pain. However, exercise CAN aggravate it. Could it be a case of lumbar fasciitis?






The red star is where I landed on a rock when Mia exploded during a dismount in Jan 2009. It seems plausible to me that the fascia there was damaged and exercise can aggravate it. But with my foot, avoiding pain seemed to make things worse, not better. Sharp pain was bad and meant I was going backwards, but tenderness due to exercise seemed to help.

So...maybe I need to accept a certain amount of soreness and, like jogging with plantar fasciitis, try for a level that is uncomfortable but not piercing. And...expect it to continue for weeks or a few months to get the fascia to partially heal...while accepting it will probably also be something that will always re-injured easier than before.


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## TrainedByMares

So @bsms you've been home alone for a while now. How are the meals? Out of a can or gourmet cooking?


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## bsms

I started using Keto and IF around 4+ years ago. Some claim keto means you can eat unlimited food and lose weight. *That is not remotely my experience.* I found keto and IF resulted in my gradually cutting back how much I ate simply because I didn't feel a compulsion to eat more. Over time, I've drifted closer to "carnivore" and "OMAD" - One Meal A Day. I'm not truly at either. If I feel like some eggs in the morning, I'll have some. So not exactly OMAD. I think MY issues were linked to insulin resistance from too large a glycemic response to carbs, done too many times a day until my body wasn't storing fat the way a normal person would. 

If so, then I don't need to be very low carb, just low on highly processed carbs AND limit my carb intake to once a day. So maybe I've drifted into One PRIMARY Meal a Day - and that meal can include veggies or modest flour (a tortilla, for example). The other meal is a snack and no carbs at all, with both normally falling into a 4-6 hour window.

My total calorie intake is probably under half of what it once was. So my main meal might be something like a couple of hamburger patties and some mixed veggies with butter, and my snack meal just some plain yogurt or some eggs. When my wife is home, my main meal may be salmon with a bit of rice, but her days of fixing more elaborate meals are largely over. Maybe if the grandkids are visiting us, and certainly if we have friends over. She is an excellent cook and then has reason to get fancy. But for the two of us? Meals are always pretty straightforward. She's more likely to add some fruit for her or a larger portion of veggies, but serious cooking is serious work. Hard to have the incentive for just two people, particularly if one of them is - by choice - close to a carnivore diet. Meat, fish, cheese, dairy of almost any kind are probably 90% of what I eat anyways. And they are all easy to fix. Even for me.

My fiber intake is so near zero that I've taken to supplementing with 2 grams of soluble fiber a day just so my body doesn't totally forget how to process fiber. Makes it tough to eat out or with friends if a small amount of fiber will result in cramps, so...a couple grams a day even if it takes a supplement to do it. I can say with a high degree of certainty that the fiber goals of the US government and the insistence that "fiber makes you regular" are NOT true.

"The Obesity Code" by Dr Jason Fung had a lot of influence on me when I started. This recent video has offered an interesting option:




A tablespoon of vinegar in a coffee mug of water does seem to reduce my urge to eat, particularly if taken with a small snack meal. My wife would benefit from keto but isn't likely to give up fruits - many of which are filled with simple carbs. It might be that combining her fruit with a bit of vinegar will allow her to 'fake' going lower carb without eliminating the fruit she loves. There is also a ton of evidence that modest simple carbs won't give you a big insulin response if eaten with fat at the same time. I also think our bodies can handle one spike in insulin a day. But the Food Pyramid and the modern American diet overload someone whose hormone production is just a bit out of whack - and can push it out of whack in a normal person. BTW, here is a good video on fiber:




I still have belly fat. In my 20s, as a 5'8" male, I dieted down to 120 pounds and still had plenty of belly fat. I suspect I'll always have a layer there. But it is now the smallest layer I've ever had in my life. I don't have to guess where the bottom of my rib cage is anymore. That makes a HUGE difference in how I feel overall - not from a "looks" perspective, but from a "how I feel doing things" perspective!

Long answer to a question that could have been answered in a couple of sentences. However, almost everyone has friends or family who are obese (42% of adults in the USA in 2019). Many of those won't want to change how they eat, in part because so many have been on diets that never worked for long so why bother? If every diet fails, why diet? I'm not condemning them or ridiculing them because I've been there! 

But this has really worked well for me, and keeping it in the back of one's mind as something to discuss with someone who IS struggling could potentially help a friend the way it has me. At a minimum, I'm REALLY tired of hearing "nutritionists" and doctors - many who are overweight themselves - saying it is dangerous to try and that no one can stick to it!


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## bsms

I'll add I'm not a fan of strict keto. It can be a helpful PHASE to go thru, but I see no value in trying to keep extremely low carbs forever. Those of us with bodies that aren't working right may be able to use it to get out bodies closer to how normal bodies function. And people like me may never be able to eat quite the same as those who never had a problem. But I think almost anyone could, after a time of strict keto, go back to eating SOME unprocessed carbs. Particularly vegetables. I also think there is something to be said for this idea:

_"If you need a "food label" to know what you are eating, why are you eating it?"_
😕​


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## Knave

We tried Keto. Well, our made up version of it. I had heard “if a cave man could eat it, that’s Keto.” So, for a month we did only what a cave man could eat. My husband lost a lot of weight fast. I think 32 pounds or something, in a month! I however started gaining a lot of weight.

Now, I don’t tend to be the healthiest person in the world. Many know I have an autoimmune disorder, which after lots of money and doctor visits was left undiagnosed beyond the term definite autoimmune disorder. I developed a bit of a bad attitude towards the many doctors and procedures, and decided to quit them all. If I died I died, but I was done with doctors. 

At the time that wasn’t a wild statement. I was down to 103#s, weak, I couldn’t understand things as they were happening, and I was having seizures. When I quit the doctors, I went gluten free, believing that maybe that was what was wrong. It was a fad diagnosis around then. I did magically improve. Now, I do not have celiac disease, but the big change in diet threw my autoimmune into remission.

I play with shocking my body when I begin seeing symptoms again, and it works. I also work out. I have become a bit of a fanatic about working out. Maybe I have a phobia of being back in that place, but I don’t get migraines either if I work out, usually.

All that to say at the time we did the Keto diet I was weightlifting. I was doing it in the style of a body builder and not a sleek type of program. On the Keto diet, I bulked. I gained like twenty pounds! I was shocked. He dropped weight like crazy and I gained it. I think it was because it was healthier for both of us, and I was of course lifting heavy.

We left it behind and he has slowly put back on some of that weight. I slowly lost it, but I also have been focused on cardio like crazy with the half marathons. I think it is time for me to build a little back and for him to lose a little again.

My oldest needs to work on her health too. She has been weak since her accidents. She needs to build up and take responsibility for her health. So, we started a lifting program (she refused to run) together. (My legs are trashed from leg day!) We also discussed having a more cave man type meal at dinner. Breakfast is brought out by me or my aunt depending on what field they are working in summertime, and it cannot follow those rules.


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## TrainedByMares

That was an interesting video about fiber. I suppose I should be eating eggs instead of cereal in the morning!


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## TrainedByMares

I've been gradually losing weight. I went to the doctor for tests. Nothing wrong. I'm active all day from sun up to sun down so I am burning calories but no matter how much I eat or what I eat, I can't gain weight. The doctor told me to slow down and drink chocolate milk! No! My wife was making these smoothies for me to drink but they just seemed to give me a belly. Thoughts and ideas?


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## Knave

@TrainedByMares there is a thing I have used when I get too small. My brother showed it to me. He just retired from the Air Force. He also struggles with his weight and health. He’s very intelligent, and the military waved the weight requirement for him to join. This man is 6’2” or 3” and often 125#s.

So, there is a powder you can buy on Amazon. It is called “carnivore mass.” Take it and have a drink or two a day. You will gain. Even my brother can gain on it. One of his military doctors told him about it. Go with the chocolate flavor. It’s not amazing, but it turns a person around.

I would only use it when I worked out hard after I gained some weight. It will kind of make you soft if you aren’t working out, but it does work.


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## bsms

On the rare times I feel a bit constipated I put some butter in my coffee. Coffee plus fat? Yeah, I won't be constipated long. Greased lightning!

@TrainedByMares, I'd recommend increasing fat. Saturated fat is NOT harmful. Consider things like adding butter to veggies, having some sausage or bratwurst, cheese, eggs. I'd also consider increasing protein. Chocolate milk? Adding sugar? Not a chance!


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## Knave

My aunt and I were talking about butter in coffee just the other day! I was complaining about Mama’s milk. Oh, I love Mama’s milk, but the cream doesn’t whip and it doesn’t turn to butter. It doesn’t turn to butter when I try, but it does turn to butter in my coffee.

I put my coffee in my saddle bags for work. The bouncing of the horse turns the cream into butter. My aunt said “well, some people do that on purpose you know.” I did not. Yet, my coffee gets cold at work. The butter gets chunky. It is coffee flavored butter, and it is a rude surprise when I take a swig. Lol

I wonder why though it turns to butter in that condition. It does not work when I try and make butter. I think maybe the acid in the coffee is the trick, or the starting hot and becoming cold… I don’t know what changes it.


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## TrainedByMares

bsms said:


> On the rare times I feel a bit constipated I put some butter in my coffee. Coffee plus fat? Yeah, I won't be constipated long. Greased lightning!
> 
> @TrainedByMares, I'd recommend increasing fat. Saturated fat is NOT harmful. Consider things like adding butter to veggies, having some sausage or bratwurst, cheese, eggs. I'd also consider increasing protein. Chocolate milk? Adding sugar? Not a chance!


I am not a sugar fan. I mean, I am no stranger to pie and dessert but I'm not seeking it out all the time. No soft drinks, no ice cream. I love fresh fruit and vegetables. I had a pint of buttermilk the other day and it was a treat. I downed it over an afternoon. It seemed to be so refreshing and gave me some energy! We have chickens and plenty of eggs so maybe I should have a cheese omelet every morning instead of my shredded wheat and raisin bran combo. 

I am skeptical of what so called 'experts' recommend. I was brought up drinking whole milk and slathering real butter on everything and no one in the family had any cholesterol problems or was diabetic. That is an eye-opener watching those studies and papers being de-bunked. 

Looks like I'm headed for Fat City. I will try it and see.


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## TrainedByMares

Knave said:


> My aunt and I were talking about butter in coffee just the other day! I was complaining about Mama’s milk. Oh, I love Mama’s milk, but the cream doesn’t whip and it doesn’t turn to butter. It doesn’t turn to butter when I try, but it does turn to butter in my coffee.
> 
> I put my coffee in my saddle bags for work. The bouncing of the horse turns the cream into butter. My aunt said “well, some people do that on purpose you know.” I did not. Yet, my coffee gets cold at work. The butter gets chunky. It is coffee flavored butter, and it is a rude surprise when I take a swig. Lol
> 
> I wonder why though it turns to butter in that condition. It does not work when I try and make butter. I think maybe the acid in the coffee is the trick, or the starting hot and becoming cold… I don’t know what changes it.


@Knave do you place the beaters,bowl and measuring cup in the freezer for 20 minutes and cool the cream before you whip? 

Coffee flavored butter sounds good but not in a flask lol!


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## TrainedByMares

Knave said:


> @TrainedByMares there is a thing I have used when I get too small. My brother showed it to me. He just retired from the Air Force. He also struggles with his weight and health. He’s very intelligent, and the military waved the weight requirement for him to join. This man is 6’2” or 3” and often 125#s.
> 
> So, there is a powder you can buy on Amazon. It is called “carnivore mass.” Take it and have a drink or two a day. You will gain. Even my brother can gain on it. One of his military doctors told him about it. Go with the chocolate flavor. It’s not amazing, but it turns a person around.
> 
> I would only use it when I worked out hard after I gained some weight. It will kind of make you soft if you aren’t working out, but it does work.


I am very shy of supplements like this. One doesn't really know what is in it and buying from Amazon, what if it's a knock-off from China laced with heavy metals? (Jake Bonham would understand)
How long have you and your brother used this stuff?

Your brother is tall and thin! 125 lb? Is that a typo?


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## bsms

We had a German exchange student who arrived at 6'2" and 135 lbs. 9 months later, he went home 6'2" and 155. My kids still remember introducing him to "free refills"....but yeah, even at 155 he wasn't even a tiny bit chubby.


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## Knave

@TrainedByMares I only used it at my worst and then a little lifting. It is a desperate times solution.

No, it’s not a typo. He can get to looking like a skeleton. He has been in and out of hospitals, but they can’t come up with why. He is a freak about what he eats now, thinking every single thing effects him. He is up to like 140#s today, and looks okay. He still looks very small, but better than he can. He isn’t even a small framed man, but just bones.


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## Knave

I think that whatever is wrong with my brother may be the same autoimmune condition I have. I have no idea what it is, but was leaning heavily towards ms for a time. Now I’m not sure. I think maybe whatever it is effects our ability to absorb nutrients, and at my worst it was more like a starvation problem.

My mother lives off sugar. I don’t know how. She is healthy seeming though, and probably 90% of her diet is junk and sugar. Then there is my brother and I, over effected by everything. I dislike having much sugar in my diet. I feel it effects me negatively, and sometimes cut it entirely. It’s one of my “shock my body,” solutions. Lol


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## bsms

One of the frustrations with the "Calorie in, Calorie out" model how some people can struggle to put on weight while others (me!) can gain weight by inhaling too deep while passing a bakery. Some of the myths are that we absorb all of what we eat (obviously false) and that we all use energy the same (also obviously false). Something feed lots have figured out a long time ago: Proteins are amino acids, and animals gain weight only as long as the amino acids are balanced to their needs. Excess amino acids beyond the balanced need of an animal won't cause weight gain. Not all protein is accessible. Some are bound to fiber and pass out with the fiber. What about fat? If your horse has colic, a vet may force feed oils. It lubes things up. Same if I add a little butter to my (hot) coffee. It slides right thru sometimes rather than be absorbed - by why and how?

In high school, my sister had a good friend who was in a sense struggling to stay alive. She ate way more than she wanted to eat just to keep 95 pounds on her 5'4" frame! That was the time frame when I first lost 50 pounds. I ate way less than she did each day, yet she was struggling to stay alive and I was barely losing weight! And I was more active than she was!

I hate it when people blame weight issues on "lack of self control" or "laziness"!

“_Evidence-based medicine is actually so corrupt as to be useless or harmful,” Marcia Angell wrote in 2009. The statement was less a revelation than something many already knew, but it made waves because of its source. Angell, a medical insider, had spent two decades as the editor-in-chief of the New England Journal of Medicine._" From the video below:


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## Knave

I forgot to answer your question @TrainedByMares! Yes, I do freeze the bowl and beater to do the whipped creme. I have never had a problem whipping any other cow’s cream or in store bought cream. I also have always been successful in making butter with other cows. I cannot do these things with Mama’s milk. I just can’t. I’ve wasted so much in trying, and in trying cheese too!

I think maybe it has to do with the breeding. I have no idea. She has a very heavy cream, so it’s not in that. I just don’t know. It’s a mystery.


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## TrainedByMares

bsms said:


> One of the frustrations with the "Calorie in, Calorie out" model how some people can struggle to put on weight while others (me!) can gain weight by inhaling too deep while passing a bakery. Some of the myths are that we absorb all of what we eat (obviously false) and that we all use energy the same (also obviously false). Something feed lots have figured out a long time ago: Proteins are amino acids, and animals gain weight only as long as the amino acids are balanced to their needs. Excess amino acids beyond the balanced need of an animal won't cause weight gain. Not all protein is accessible. Some are bound to fiber and pass out with the fiber. What about fat? If your horse has colic, a vet may force feed oils. It lubes things up. Same if I add a little butter to my (hot) coffee. It slides right thru sometimes rather than be absorbed - by why and how?
> 
> In high school, my sister had a good friend who was in a sense struggling to stay alive. She ate way more than she wanted to eat just to keep 95 pounds on her 5'4" frame! That was the time frame when I first lost 50 pounds. I ate way less than she did each day, yet she was struggling to stay alive and I was barely losing weight! And I was more active than she was!
> 
> I hate it when people blame weight issues on "lack of self control" or "laziness"!
> 
> “_Evidence-based medicine is actually so corrupt as to be useless or harmful,” Marcia Angell wrote in 2009. The statement was less a revelation than something many already knew, but it made waves because of its source. Angell, a medical insider, had spent two decades as the editor-in-chief of the New England Journal of Medicine._" From the video below:


Yes, I realize that not all food has the same nutrient load and I suspect some things sold in the stores have been 'de-contented' i.e some ingredients exchanged for cheaper,less nutritious ones. 
The fiber talk was very interesting. I'm excited to try the cheese omelets every morning. 
I'll tell you though, "lack of self control" is my wife and daughter and ice cream! I read the ingredient list on those containers and it makes me cringe. Its just a tub of chemicals!
That is one thing most people don't do, read the ingredients...


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## Knave

This is definitely true @TrainedByMares. So, I like having fresh milk, and decided to make sour cream and cottage cheese. Both of these things are made just by letting milk go bad. Raw milk does not actually go bad like store milk.

Anyways, it is also sweeter than store milk, likely because I feed Mama grain with molasses and very hot alfalfa. The sour cream was still sweet in its own way, and my family was like “heck no!” I tried to explain that store bought sour cream is actually made with chemicals and not what was once real. They refused to try it. The cottage cheese they also refused to try. So, alas, they prefer chemicals. Lol


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## TrainedByMares

That is really funny @Knave !


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## bsms

As a kid, I was nearly raised on Campbell's Chicken Noodle soup. When my sister and I were around 8-10 years old, we visited my Mom's sister on their farm in Indiana. My aunt was an outstanding cook, so she decided to make us real chicken soup - using her own chickens, own vegetables and hand-made noodles.

My sister and I hated it! It wasn't "real" chicken soup! How could it be? It tasted NOTHING like Campbell's....

My Mom thought it was hilarious. Her sister? Not _nearly_ as amused!


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## knightrider

bsms said:


> My sister and I hated it! It wasn't "real" chicken soup! How could it be? It tasted NOTHING like Campbell's....


We had a family move in next door who were similar in age to our kids. This family didn't have much in the way of money and the kids were always hungry. They used to come in my house, open my refrigerator and say, "What have you got to eat?"

One morning, when they had spent the night, I made them home-made waffles from scratch, like I often made for my family. The 2 neighbor kids wouldn't eat them. They only liked the frozen kind you put in the toaster.


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## gottatrot

We're told that a certain diet is the best, but we notice that horses can't be fed the same or it doesn't work out well. You can put three horses on pasture and one will thrive, another will starve and another will founder. Yet "grass" is supposedly the natural diet for all horses. So some of us are TBs and some are Mustangs and some are not as extreme as either of those. 

I believe many issues with weight are due to our individual bodies and not related to laziness or willpower. Taking the wrong pill or eating the wrong type of food for your body can make you swing more in a direction of weight loss or gain. People taking antidepressants often become moderately overweight because the pills cause the weight gain. 

@TrainedByMares, my uncle has hiked a good stretch of the Pacific Crest Trail a couple of times, and each time he dropped about 40 lbs. He said every man on the trail had serious issues with weight loss when they were hiking all day, and that women were able to adjust their metabolisms better to the hard work. A man hiking all day will require something like 6,000 calories or more to maintain weight. That's super hard to do when you're packing dehydrated food, so for example any time my uncle came to a town, he'd go into a fast food place and eat some junk food to try to catch up. 

People say carbs are not good to eat, but I think it depends. When I'm working hard I am more like a TB, and I find that eating a lot of carbs helps me. I've read somewhere that if you're working hard, what might be considered "junk" to someone who is sitting around can be converted into very useful energy by your body. Not that it's healthy to eat a lot of processed food and sugar, but at the moment you are working, even simple sugars are used up immediately as energy. A Mustang type is not going to need that boost regardless, because they are efficient. But a TB type might need it.


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## bsms

There is a lot of evidence carbs can improve the results of an intense workout. So if one's goal is bodybuilding or racing, then carbs can definitely play a role in improving one's performance. Properly used, I suspect they can speed recovery times too. The big problems are simple carbs (and possible "naked" carbs, taken largely by themselves - a blueberry muffin, perhaps) eaten too often without immediately working them off. Even there, some people seem to handle that genetically.

But for many of us, and about half of the USA adult population is obese, we can throw our bodies out of whack by...simple carbs, eaten too often without immediately working them off. And once that happens, you can't lose the fat by the methods that work for normal, properly functioning people.

In a normally functioning human, excess consumption goes into the fat reservoir. When you are doing more than you are taking in, the reservoir empties as needed to make up the difference. Without a fat reservoir, the body would have to attack muscle and bone and nerve tissue for the extra energy - so a fat reservoir is a very good thing. But what happens if the body stops recognizing the reservoir, if it starts assuming it must make up the difference by converting muscle to energy while leaving the reservoir untouched? Conversely, in the case of my sister's very lean friend, what if the body refuses to put energy into the reservoir? Excess fat kills you slowly, but not being able to store it sound far more dangerous!

That is where concepts like keto or fasting can play a role - can, because I doubt they would work for everyone. But they DO work for many and it makes me angry that many nutritionists try to talk people out of trying! If you have an obese patient who isn't losing weight on the government-approved diet, what in the heck is wrong with trying something else?! Particularly since I'm not the only one who has seen a big enough change to become a bit of an evangelist....

Gary Taubes poses an interesting question. The first time I read it, I thought he was nuts. Since then, I think he has hit a key concept for many of us.

"_Do fat people get fat because they eat too much, or do they eat too much because their body is trying to get fat?_"

It is easy to blame people but something like 95% or more of diets fail. _I did yo-yo dieting for decades!_ I promise you, my problem was NOT lack of willpower! And if you have failed repeatedly for 20+ years, how eager will you be to try again?

But I also know people who can eat anything and do fine. I wish I was one of them, but.... 😕

PS: I'd LOVE to think of myself as a "Thoroughbred", and I _do_ love running, but no one who has ever looked at me thought, "Thoroughbred"! 🤠


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## TrainedByMares

gottatrot said:


> We're told that a certain diet is the best, but we notice that horses can't be fed the same or it doesn't work out well. You can put three horses on pasture and one will thrive, another will starve and another will founder. Yet "grass" is supposedly the natural diet for all horses. So some of us are TBs and some are Mustangs and some are not as extreme as either of those.
> 
> I believe many issues with weight are due to our individual bodies and not related to laziness or willpower. Taking the wrong pill or eating the wrong type of food for your body can make you swing more in a direction of weight loss or gain. People taking antidepressants often become moderately overweight because the pills cause the weight gain.
> 
> @TrainedByMares, my uncle has hiked a good stretch of the Pacific Crest Trail a couple of times, and each time he dropped about 40 lbs. He said every man on the trail had serious issues with weight loss when they were hiking all day, and that women were able to adjust their metabolisms better to the hard work. A man hiking all day will require something like 6,000 calories or more to maintain weight. That's super hard to do when you're packing dehydrated food, so for example any time my uncle came to a town, he'd go into a fast food place and eat some junk food to try to catch up.
> 
> People say carbs are not good to eat, but I think it depends. When I'm working hard I am more like a TB, and I find that eating a lot of carbs helps me. I've read somewhere that if you're working hard, what might be considered "junk" to someone who is sitting around can be converted into very useful energy by your body. Not that it's healthy to eat a lot of processed food and sugar, but at the moment you are working, even simple sugars are used up immediately as energy. A Mustang type is not going to need that boost regardless, because they are efficient. But a TB type might need it.


Good point ! I do travel up and down the mountain and around the property. I am usually too busy to eat a large meal and I avoid junk food like the plague. I used to be like a Mustang, fit and lean and constant 175 lb. Work all day and night , no problem. Now I'm 160 like a rescue TB. One thing I was thinking about is back then I drank more beer. Now, I have one every month or two but years ago, I'd have one or two after work.


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## bsms

Since these journals sometimes veer off into travelogues, I'll add a few photos my wife took along the beach the last few weeks:






























These two are blurry because of how the file was sent. It is of her niece's home:














The jeepneys are more modern than I remember, but otherwise...."_How many passengers can it hold? One more..._"


----------



## stevenson

I will do a small amount of round pen work . I usually just let them go out run buck roll and get the heebie jeebies out of them. lol. Then its walk trot canter. stop turn. follow me. After standing around in the pens they need time to get the kinks out before going out. I do not do the intense ground work . At this time I am still recouping from tkr surgery, so they will be full of themselves and I will probably have a trainer come out and work them for a month before I attempt to ride.


----------



## SueC

Beautiful travel pics.



Knave said:


> This is definitely true @TrainedByMares. So, I like having fresh milk, and decided to make sour cream and cottage cheese. Both of these things are made just by letting milk go bad. Raw milk does not actually go bad like store milk.
> 
> Anyways, it is also sweeter than store milk, likely because I feed Mama grain with molasses and very hot alfalfa. The sour cream was still sweet in its own way, and my family was like “heck no!” I tried to explain that store bought sour cream is actually made with chemicals and not what was once real. They refused to try it. The cottage cheese they also refused to try. So, alas, they prefer chemicals. Lol


The sour cream we buy doesn't have chemical additives, just pasteurised cream and a consistent bacterial culture. The problem with letting the cream sour naturally is that it's a lucky dip depending on the microflora populations in the raw milk at the time and most of the time it may therefore taste off. So that's why in milk and yoghurt making you usually use an established culture with pasteurised milk or cream to get rid of the willy-nilly competition. It's like in sourdough baking. When you make a culture from scratch you end up throwing out a few that don't taste right and when you finally get a nice one you keep and feed part of it for next time.

To make cottage cheese without the off taste, you add rennet or something else to coagulate the proteins (I use lemon juice) to milk that's not off. I don't bother pasteurising as this is not a microbial process. In off milk it's acid that causes clotting too.

I love cheese - and different varieties have their own specific bacterial culture to give them their unique flavour. The cheese with bubbles like Jarlsberg or Emmental has cultures that produce a fair bit of gas during their fermentation, as well as specific fermentation products that determine much of the flavour profile. But the milk too has a role, and for example, cattle grazed on uncultivated Alpine meadows have flavours from the herbs and flowers in the milk, and the best milk I ever had was straight from a cow that grazed such meadows in Italy, in the late 70s. 😍

You can probably imagine that my favourite part of Microbiology at university was the week on cheese-making. Oooh. Aaah.

@TrainedByMares, we make our own ice cream simply by whipping a pint of cream and pureeing a pint of berries and mixing the two together with a little icing sugar added to taste (not much). Eat about 6-8 hours after you pop it in the freezer for a creamy semi-fredo, or leave longer and mine with a knife - tastes unbelievable. Make some for your family sometime and if they don't like it (not enough sugar, waah!) eat it all yourself.


----------



## TrainedByMares

SueC said:


> Beautiful travel pics.
> 
> 
> 
> The sour cream we buy doesn't have chemical additives, just pasteurised cream and a consistent bacterial culture. The problem with letting the cream sour naturally is that it's a lucky dip depending on the microflora populations in the raw milk at the time and most of the time it may therefore taste off. So that's why in milk and yoghurt making you usually use an established culture with pasteurised milk or cream to get rid of the willy-nilly competition. It's like in sourdough baking. When you make a culture from scratch you end up throwing out a few that don't taste right and when you finally get a nice one you keep and feed part of it for next time.
> 
> To make cottage cheese without the off taste, you add rennet or something else to coagulate the proteins (I use lemon juice) to milk that's not off. I don't bother pasteurising as this is not a microbial process. In off milk it's acid that causes clotting too.
> 
> I love cheese - and different varieties have their own specific bacterial culture to give them their unique flavour. The cheese with bubbles like Jarlsberg or Emmental has cultures that produce a fair bit of gas during their fermentation, as well as specific fermentation products that determine much of the flavour profile. But the milk too has a role, and for example, cattle grazed on uncultivated Alpine meadows have flavours from the herbs and flowers in the milk, and the best milk I ever had was straight from a cow that grazed such meadows in Italy, in the late 70s. 😍
> 
> You can probably imagine that my favourite part of Microbiology at university was the week on cheese-making. Oooh. Aaah.
> 
> @TrainedByMares, we make our own ice cream simply by whipping a pint of cream and pureeing a pint of berries and mixing the two together with a little icing sugar added to taste (not much). Eat about 6-8 hours after you pop it in the freezer for a creamy semi-fredo, or leave longer and mine with a knife - tastes unbelievable. Make some for your family sometime and if they don't like it (not enough sugar, waah!) eat it all yourself.


I will make some this week! Sounds great!


----------



## TrainedByMares

@SueC The plan is in motion...


----------



## bsms

My theory, BTW, on not enough sugar is like my Dad's on "This steak wasn't cooked enough!" - much easier to add than to remove. Steak not cooked enough? The grill is still hot. Not sweet enough? A - (*MY* thought) Tough! But there is Plan B: "So, go add some!"


----------



## SueC

TrainedByMares said:


> @SueC The plan is in motion...
> View attachment 1131298


What berries did you end up using? I've used commercial raspberries and strawberries, and home-grown boysenberries, youngberries and mulberries. It's all excellent.

How did it taste? I always check the mix for flavour before putting it in the freezer. You can also adjust the fruit portion to make it higher than 50-50 if you like it extra fruity. I figure the fruit is the healthier part and so I don't just use it to flavour the cream, but to really pack a punch, taste-wise and nutritionally...


----------



## TrainedByMares

SueC said:


> What berries did you end up using? I've used commercial raspberries and strawberries, and home-grown boysenberries, youngberries and mulberries. It's all excellent.
> 
> How did it taste? I always check the mix for flavour before putting it in the freezer. You can also adjust the fruit portion to make it higher than 50-50 if you like it extra fruity. I figure the fruit is the healthier part and so I don't just use it to flavour the cream, but to really pack a punch, taste-wise and nutritionally...


I used it as a topping (before I froze it) on cups of fruit salad that we had as part of supper and my wife loved it.
I used commercial frozen berries and it was bland. It could use more for a fruitier taste. Our mulberry trees are loaded with ripe berries and I regret not even thinking about them. I think that would have been the sweet kick it needed.
I ate some frozen for a snack before lunch today and I think I will sprinkle some fresh mulberries on top for afternoon snack !


----------



## bsms

FWIW, I'm going to drop off HF for a while. Too much political content for me to feel comfortable. I can't debate without losing friends and yet MY beliefs and values seem to be fair game. Maybe I can take a break for a month and ease back on later.


----------



## knightrider

Ohhhh, I will miss you @bsms


----------



## Knave

I’ll miss you so much! I wish you’d reconsider.


----------



## bsms

Short ride on Bandit, entirely in our little arena. The wife made it home at the end of June and we spent some time around the 4th with friends in Show Low - Internet picture of a place about 1/4 mile from where we stayed:






We walked an hour or more each day along the lake and watched the fireworks from the front yard of where we stayed.

So I haven't ridden much lately and just wanted some time on his back. It gets boring, so we did 20 minutes and half of the time was devoted to eating the green grass that has temporarily appeared in our arena. I worked on "two point without knees" - just found out via another thread that there is a teaching that "two point" refers to using our two knees versus two legs supported by stirrups. So "two point without knees" and it IS possible to use the longer stirrup setting AND actively engage the entire leg to absorb the motion of a trot.

But it was mostly about getting fly spray on Bandit ("_Hey, you missed a spot!_"), stretching my legs out and letting him graze with me on his back. From his perspective, it was a near perfect ride....


----------



## tinyliny

Is that Arizona? so pretty. Sorry, I a m not keeping up with your journal, so didn't know locations.


----------



## tinyliny

bsms said:


> FWIW, I'm going to drop off HF for a while. Too much political content for me to feel comfortable. I can't debate without losing friends and yet MY beliefs and values seem to be fair game. Maybe I can take a break for a month and ease back on later.



Political content? I'm not seeing a lot of that. If there is , the mods should be made aware and have them remove it. 
I remember the old days, when we actually HAD a politics forum. What a mess this place would be if that sub-forum still existed!


----------



## bsms

Yes, @tinyliny, the picture is from Show Low Arizona. Few people know (and I often forget) that Arizona is home to the largest Ponderosa Pine forest in the US.






The Tucson-Phoenix corridor holds maybe 90% of Arizona's population. Even I forget how BIG Arizona is and how varied! Do a search for Mogollon Rim. It stirred my desire to move again...but as The Wife and I talked about it, I think we might go the route of getting a 22-24' travel trailer, get family (or hire someone) to watch our horses for a week, and explore parts of the state few tourists (and most residents) ever see! We are going to keep an eye on land prices. But we are very unlikely to move in the next 2-3 years and we aren't getting any younger....

I remember the political sub-forum. I stopped before it did because it caused me to lose respect for riders I _did_ respect as riders - and HF should focus on what unites us rather than what often divides us. Besides, can you imagine what the political sub-forum would have been like during The Disease That Must Not Be Named? Holy cow, Batman!


----------



## bsms

An interesting film. It gets posted on YouTube then taken down, then reposted by someone else:




I'm not suggesting all of this is what I think is right, but by and large they DO seem to move well with their horses. I think it supports @gottatrot 's suggestion that a forward seat is a VERY secure seat! I worry about what would happen if Bandit & I fell, but there is a lot to be said for the idea he is much less likely to fall if I free him up as much as possible!

I'll also add this. Not totally endorsing it, but an interesting video (to me):




Note: Littauer loved teaching women. He said on average that women are more sympathetic to the horse and less likely to try to use brute force instead of good technique!


----------



## bsms

Good ride today. Bandit was pretty reluctant to head out since it was over 90 when we headed out. But...he submitted, I guess. Once out he behaved like a champ. I used the shorter stirrup position. It looks like this, which feels short to me, but that may indicate how long my stirrups have been:






That certainly doesn't qualify as a squished leg although it felt a little like it. So much depends on what we are used to doing!

We did a lot of trotting and he's pretty much accepted that "Go faster" means trot. I like it because his emotions stay under much better control even if he's trotting fast. Trots were done in two point and SOMETIMES using two hands. I've been taking him out in an O-ring, single joint copper snaffle and he's doing good in it since he isn't getting as excited. Probably rode half the ride in a half-seat and a quarter in two point, with a quarter just sitting down on his back.






The mesquite beans are getting harder to find but there were some still available. A lady told me the other day that horses will colic if they eat mesquite beans. I didn't argue but Bandit will eat dried tumbleweeds. I hate to think how that must feel coming out the other end, but he's never had colic. Maybe the mustang in him? I suspect BLM Mustang Cowboy could eat sawdust and not be bothered!

We did one nice but short canter. He offered a smooth and controlled one which was fun to ride. Returning back thru "Canter Heaven", we walked. He needs to know we can do that just because we can! Nearing home, three ATVs came up behind us. I took him off trail and turned so he could see them. They live in the neighborhood and all three slowed down and kept their engines low while going by and we all waived at each other. Bandit had no trouble with them since they were 20+ feet away on the trail and we were off. Good ride, with some faster speeds but also relaxed moments, plus some eating by Bandit.

Note: Bandit can graze on dried grass while twisted on a slope, feet out at all angles and his rump poked by dry mesquite branches. Feels REALLY awkward but he was happy.


----------



## bsms

A continuation of my post here ( A Rascal and a Hero ) on gottatrot's journal: 

Littauer's comments about Halla and the Germans were probably rooted in the influence the German team (and German books on riding) had on how show jumping progressed during the 60s (and much longer). George Morris wrote a book called "The American Jumping Style" in the early 90s. It still pushed ideas very familiar to what the US Cavalry school & manual taught. He wrote:

"_The softness of aids - really, the invisibility of aids - characteristic of the American Jumping Style has been brought about by this dual force of riding methodology and the Thoroughbred-type horse. To say that one must only squeeze the leg and close the hand to achieve results is great in principle. However, it is much easier to apply in practice on a thin-skinned, sensitive, hot horse than on a heavy, cold-blooded beast. To sink the weight softly into the horse's back is not only classically correct but mandatory on a Thoroughbred; it doesn't matter as much on most cold-blooded horses if one sits down in a heavy and brusque manner. It takes less effort to get a Thoroughbred to notice an aid, but it also takes much less to make him uncomfortable and provoke a negative reaction...So one can now better understand the North American obsession with "Be soft, be soft, be soft!" It is instilled in our riders from the beginning as a means of dealing with hot, sensitive, and reactive horses...

...The way we ask this type of horse to come together and go to the bit is definitely more progressive, careful, and refined than the approach of the average European, who "puts the horse together" by quicker and stronger means, often using draw reins, chambons, and other auxiliary reins that have only recently (and regrettably) become part of American equipment.

With most Thoroughbreds, force simply doesn't work; equestrian tact does. The English call such sensitive horses "high couraged", a characteristic that can be a double-edged sword. No horse will give you more if you can channel his energy in the right direction, but no horse can fight you harder if you abuse him. Pushing and pulling will backfire and is akin to stepping on the gas and the brakes at the same time in an automobile. Finesse, compromise, and an indirect approach to the problem - "going in through the back door" - will usually get the job done much better than confrontations, force and fights._"

But by 2000 Morris had (I think) given up: If he wanted to be a clinician, he had to conform to what people paying for clinics expected. AND maybe also to the fact that European Warmbloods had taken over show jumping. 

I watched some videos of show jumping from the 1960 and early 70s last night. Between jumps, the riders would switch to a dressage-inspired seat - a seat that honestly does not work when used with very short stirrups and a jump saddle! Because the jumps were getting higher and higher, and courses getting tighter and tighter, the horse could no longer judge the jump on his own. He needed to be positioned exactly for the jump. So riders became (compared to the pre-WW2 US Cavalry theory) much more dominant (needing close control of an excited horse). That required a more dominating and deeper seat, which creates an ugly style of riding when done with short stirrups. Some of the jumping in the 60s really looked hideous to me as they (IMHO) fought with their horses between the jumps. The jumping itself usually looked fluid - but then they had to go back to struggling to set the horse up for the next big & close jump.

Littauer spent much of his adult life using jumping as a way of teaching riders to move with their horse and to allow their horse the freedom to move. I think it discouraged him - maybe horrified him - that jumping had turned into a sport where artificial jumps were requiring artificial approaches to riding in order to win.

"But there then occurred
in riding what has often happened before in other human activities
man's ambition to attain the barely attainable took
over jumping; it forced many international horsemen to
drop Caprilli's method and _to search for other, more forcible
means of making horses negotiate almost impossible combinations
of obstacles_. Today many of these horsemen will rightly
tell you that Caprilli's basic tenet, that "there is little in
common between ring riding and cross-country riding" could
be altered to "there is little in common between cross-country
riding and international show jumping."…

..._Artificial jumping problems, and the correspondingly! artificial
means of solving them, have placed such jumping just
around the corner from the tanbark of the circus_. Just as in
former days our ancestors admired the particularly artificial
feats of High School, so today many of us enjoy a new type
of circus unnaturally high obstacles assembled in tricky combinations.
And the more spills there are and the more crashing
of timber, the more thrills some people get."

I have a strong interest in riding theory - the WHY of HOW we ride. Most do not. More of Littauer's comments on the lack of interest in theory and what happens as a result (italics mine):

"The parts of this chapter which deal with the progress of
educated riding may give the impression that all is beautiful
in the riding world in the United States today. Actually, the
broad picture is not uniform. 

While some of the new people
who entered this sport brought with them what was necessary
to improve riding, _others did not contribute much beyond
vulgarity and a new type of cruelty which was often the
result of the latter. For the sake of winning trophies, by
hook or by crook, they resorted to painful or sometimes simply
absurd bits and gadgets, and to any manner of riding they
thought might make the horse clear a course of obstacles._
In order to collect ribbons, horses today [1971!] are made to jump so
much and so high that among consistent winners really sound
animals are in the minority. Although some of these, with
the help of iron constitutions and veterinary science, continue
to appear in the show ring year after year, a disturbingly
large number of horses are turned into nervous wrecks or are
buried in their prime. 

Essentially there is nothing new in this
picture; only its forms have changed. _Good riders and considerate
ones have always been outnumbered by poor or rough
ones_, and in the past horses were as much abused by forcible
and unintelligent dressage riding as they are today by jumping…

Of the many negative elements present in American riding
today one in particular should be discussed at some length
theoretical side of riding.

_This apathy toward thinking deeply about riding is quite
a serious fault_, for it not only limits the riding potential of
the individual but has an adverse effect on those policies which
try to promote better riding on a national scale.
_The majority of our horsemen who are interested in jumping
and who have accepted the Forward Seat and other Italian
practices connected with control and schooling have not studied
the theoretical basis for them._ Nor have they ever been curious
to find out what Forward Riding replaced, and why.

Since the modern method was especially devised for field
riding and jumping, it worked well even when approached
superficially and purely practically. It enabled our juniors to
ride better over fences than their European counterparts; but
their reluctance to study theory has left them without any
convictions. 

On the other hand, the majority of continental
Europeans, old-fashioned as many of them are, have a traditionally
scholastic approach to riding. Although their devotion
to the past may impede their progress in riding over obstacles,
they usually can give reasons for what they are doing. _While
these reasons may be basically incorrect, they possess, just the
same, a certain logic. Europeans, being well-educated in
traditional schools of equestrian thought, know how to argue
in defence of their doctrines_, while Americans on the whole
are unable either to attack European logic. or to defend their
own. Thus, rather naturally, they have acquired an inferiority
complex on the subject of theoretical equitation, and are
easily led astray."

FWIW, Littauer was Russian. But it seems to me an instructor, and certainly organizations supposedly dedicated to teaching good riding, OUGHT to take riding theory seriously. Shouldn't someone taking money for instruction be able to say WHY certain things are good or bad in certain situations, and what will happen (for example) if you grip with the knee? Shouldn't they be able to give a reason for shouting "heels down", although I think "heels down" misses the point as much as "We create movement with our legs"! Is it unreasonable to expect an organization like the British Horse Society (BHS) to teach the pros and cons of different techniques, rather than insist on one and not be able to explain why? Even if those explanations are wrong, shouldn't they have SOME reason for teaching X?

End of rant, for now. 

*A rant is more about getting something off of one's chest than it is in convincing others of the truth of the rant!*​


----------



## bsms

A big Horny Toad visited our front porch this evening:















Nothing earth-shaking about it, but perhaps more enjoyable than another rant by me! I'm guessing, but...

"_The regal horned lizard is a small, flat lizard about the size of the palm of a man's hand. Though it has spikes all around its body, the regal horn's main defense is the ability to squirt blood from its eyes.

3–4 inches or 117 mm in length from nose to tail as a full adult.
Pale grey to yellow-brown or reddish topped with dark blotches alongside the body and back.
4 legs each leg with 4 toes and claws on each toe.
Slow runner that uses camouflage to escape predators....

.... This horned lizard occupies primarily level or gently sloping terrain with openly spaced desert vegetation such as mesquite, creosote bush, and saguaro cactus. It can be found primarily in a hot and dry climate where the Earth may be covered in limestone dust. It is found in the Sonoran Desert Mountains is where it prefers its climate, but can be found in Texas, southern California, Arizona, and New Mexico_" - Wiki

That is a perfect description of where I live. There is a small limestone mine a few miles from my hourse.


----------



## Knave

I love the little guys! They are so friendly. We have them all over here. The last couple years they have gone crazy in numbers. Snakes and other lizards are high in population right now too, but nothing is as happy as the horny toads.


----------



## bsms

Some quotes from Dorothy Sayers (1893 – 1957) that I just came across:

“The popular mind has grown so confused that it is no longer able to receive any statement of fact except as an expression of personal feeling.”

“the heaviest restriction upon the freedom of public opinion is not the official censorship of the Press, but the unofficial censorship by a Press which exists not so much to express opinion as to manufacture it.”

“As I grow older and older, And totter toward the tomb, I find that I care less and less Who goes to bed with whom.”

“It is not the business of the church to adapt Christ to men, but men to Christ.”

“A society in which consumption has to be artificially stimulated in order to keep production going is a society founded on trash and waste, for such a society is a house built upon sand.”

“Paradoxical as it may seem, to believe in youth is to look backward; to look forward we must believe in age.”

"Indeed, it is my experience that both men and women are fundamentally human, and that there is very little mystery about either sex, except the exasperating mysteriousness of human beings in general...If you wish to preserve a free democracy, you must base it—not on classes and categories, for this will land you in the totalitarian State, where no one may act or think except as the member of a category. You must base it upon the individual Tom, **** and Harry, on the individual Jack and Jill—in fact, upon you and me."


----------



## gottatrot

bsms said:


> A continuation of my post here ( A Rascal and a Hero ) on gottatrot's journal:
> 
> Littauer's comments about Halla and the Germans were probably rooted in the influence the German team (and German books on riding) had on how show jumping progressed during the 60s (and much longer). George Morris wrote a book called "The American Jumping Style" in the early 90s. It still pushed ideas very familiar to what the US Cavalry school & manual taught. He wrote:
> 
> "_The softness of aids - really, the invisibility of aids - characteristic of the American Jumping Style has been brought about by this dual force of riding methodology and the Thoroughbred-type horse. To say that one must only squeeze the leg and close the hand to achieve results is great in principle. However, it is much easier to apply in practice on a thin-skinned, sensitive, hot horse than on a heavy, cold-blooded beast. To sink the weight softly into the horse's back is not only classically correct but mandatory on a Thoroughbred; it doesn't matter as much on most cold-blooded horses if one sits down in a heavy and brusque manner. It takes less effort to get a Thoroughbred to notice an aid, but it also takes much less to make him uncomfortable and provoke a negative reaction...So one can now better understand the North American obsession with "Be soft, be soft, be soft!" It is instilled in our riders from the beginning as a means of dealing with hot, sensitive, and reactive horses...
> 
> ...The way we ask this type of horse to come together and go to the bit is definitely more progressive, careful, and refined than the approach of the average European, who "puts the horse together" by quicker and stronger means, often using draw reins, chambons, and other auxiliary reins that have only recently (and regrettably) become part of American equipment.
> 
> With most Thoroughbreds, force simply doesn't work; equestrian tact does. The English call such sensitive horses "high couraged", a characteristic that can be a double-edged sword. No horse will give you more if you can channel his energy in the right direction, but no horse can fight you harder if you abuse him. Pushing and pulling will backfire and is akin to stepping on the gas and the brakes at the same time in an automobile. Finesse, compromise, and an indirect approach to the problem - "going in through the back door" - will usually get the job done much better than confrontations, force and fights._"
> 
> But by 2000 Morris had (I think) given up: If he wanted to be a clinician, he had to conform to what people paying for clinics expected. AND maybe also to the fact that European Warmbloods had taken over show jumping.
> 
> I watched some videos of show jumping from the 1960 and early 70s last night. Between jumps, the riders would switch to a dressage-inspired seat - a seat that honestly does not work when used with very short stirrups and a jump saddle! Because the jumps were getting higher and higher, and courses getting tighter and tighter, the horse could no longer judge the jump on his own. He needed to be positioned exactly for the jump. So riders became (compared to the pre-WW2 US Cavalry theory) much more dominant (needing close control of an excited horse). That required a more dominating and deeper seat, which creates an ugly style of riding when done with short stirrups. Some of the jumping in the 60s really looked hideous to me as they (IMHO) fought with their horses between the jumps. The jumping itself usually looked fluid - but then they had to go back to struggling to set the horse up for the next big & close jump.
> 
> Littauer spent much of his adult life using jumping as a way of teaching riders to move with their horse and to allow their horse the freedom to move. I think it discouraged him - maybe horrified him - that jumping had turned into a sport where artificial jumps were requiring artificial approaches to riding in order to win.
> 
> "But there then occurred
> in riding what has often happened before in other human activities
> man's ambition to attain the barely attainable took
> over jumping; it forced many international horsemen to
> drop Caprilli's method and _to search for other, more forcible
> means of making horses negotiate almost impossible combinations
> of obstacles_. Today many of these horsemen will rightly
> tell you that Caprilli's basic tenet, that "there is little in
> common between ring riding and cross-country riding" could
> be altered to "there is little in common between cross-country
> riding and international show jumping."…
> 
> ..._Artificial jumping problems, and the correspondingly! artificial
> means of solving them, have placed such jumping just
> around the corner from the tanbark of the circus_. Just as in
> former days our ancestors admired the particularly artificial
> feats of High School, so today many of us enjoy a new type
> of circus unnaturally high obstacles assembled in tricky combinations.
> And the more spills there are and the more crashing
> of timber, the more thrills some people get."
> 
> I have a strong interest in riding theory - the WHY of HOW we ride. Most do not. More of Littauer's comments on the lack of interest in theory and what happens as a result (italics mine):
> 
> "The parts of this chapter which deal with the progress of
> educated riding may give the impression that all is beautiful
> in the riding world in the United States today. Actually, the
> broad picture is not uniform.
> 
> While some of the new people
> who entered this sport brought with them what was necessary
> to improve riding, _others did not contribute much beyond
> vulgarity and a new type of cruelty which was often the
> result of the latter. For the sake of winning trophies, by
> hook or by crook, they resorted to painful or sometimes simply
> absurd bits and gadgets, and to any manner of riding they
> thought might make the horse clear a course of obstacles._
> In order to collect ribbons, horses today [1971!] are made to jump so
> much and so high that among consistent winners really sound
> animals are in the minority. Although some of these, with
> the help of iron constitutions and veterinary science, continue
> to appear in the show ring year after year, a disturbingly
> large number of horses are turned into nervous wrecks or are
> buried in their prime.
> 
> Essentially there is nothing new in this
> picture; only its forms have changed. _Good riders and considerate
> ones have always been outnumbered by poor or rough
> ones_, and in the past horses were as much abused by forcible
> and unintelligent dressage riding as they are today by jumping…
> 
> Of the many negative elements present in American riding
> today one in particular should be discussed at some length
> theoretical side of riding.
> 
> _This apathy toward thinking deeply about riding is quite
> a serious fault_, for it not only limits the riding potential of
> the individual but has an adverse effect on those policies which
> try to promote better riding on a national scale.
> _The majority of our horsemen who are interested in jumping
> and who have accepted the Forward Seat and other Italian
> practices connected with control and schooling have not studied
> the theoretical basis for them._ Nor have they ever been curious
> to find out what Forward Riding replaced, and why.
> 
> Since the modern method was especially devised for field
> riding and jumping, it worked well even when approached
> superficially and purely practically. It enabled our juniors to
> ride better over fences than their European counterparts; but
> their reluctance to study theory has left them without any
> convictions.
> 
> On the other hand, the majority of continental
> Europeans, old-fashioned as many of them are, have a traditionally
> scholastic approach to riding. Although their devotion
> to the past may impede their progress in riding over obstacles,
> they usually can give reasons for what they are doing. _While
> these reasons may be basically incorrect, they possess, just the
> same, a certain logic. Europeans, being well-educated in
> traditional schools of equestrian thought, know how to argue
> in defence of their doctrines_, while Americans on the whole
> are unable either to attack European logic. or to defend their
> own. Thus, rather naturally, they have acquired an inferiority
> complex on the subject of theoretical equitation, and are
> easily led astray."
> 
> FWIW, Littauer was Russian. But it seems to me an instructor, and certainly organizations supposedly dedicated to teaching good riding, OUGHT to take riding theory seriously. Shouldn't someone taking money for instruction be able to say WHY certain things are good or bad in certain situations, and what will happen (for example) if you grip with the knee? Shouldn't they be able to give a reason for shouting "heels down", although I think "heels down" misses the point as much as "We create movement with our legs"! Is it unreasonable to expect an organization like the British Horse Society (BHS) to teach the pros and cons of different techniques, rather than insist on one and not be able to explain why? Even if those explanations are wrong, shouldn't they have SOME reason for teaching X?
> 
> End of rant, for now.
> 
> *A rant is more about getting something off of one's chest than it is in convincing others of the truth of the rant!*​


This post is extremely interesting and informative.


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## bsms

Got Bandit out for a short but helpful ride. Used the Dr Cook's Bitless Bridle today. Hadn't used it in a few years. In summary...it worked fine but I won't use it anytime soon again. It made it slightly easier for Bandit to eat but I'm sure any difference in quantity consumed per 10 second interval would be statistically meaningless. We've done enough trotting that Bandit accepts trotting as "I'm going faster" and since he doesn't get amped up like he does at a canter, the bitless was identical in terms of control. But...a bit seems to be a little clearer to Bandit. Of course, if I rode him bitless for the next 6 months, that might change. But...why bother? Plan to go back to either a single-joint O-ring or his low port solid curb.

As we started down tthe ATV path that we used 98% of the time at the start of our ride, Bandit seemed interested into going left. There is a small wash there, a bit awkward to enter and variable footing...but what the heck? So we went that way.






Not the most inviting looking place! The next part narrows and Bandit used to dislike it. But he was fine today:






The blue ribbon just above Bandit's ear is what is left of a blue tarp that has been there for years. Bandit used to freak over it. He didn't seem to notice it at all today. Then it widens out:






A little ways down I had the bright idea to leave the wash, climb out the left bank and strike cross country. Not the best idea. We made it thru but we went a few hundred yards of "_Turn left. Go 8 feet. Turn 90 right. Go 6 feet. Turn 90 left. Go 8 feet, turn 150 right, then 4 feet forward and turn 90 left._" Threading our way between spiny brush and cactus. Talk about a "handy horse" - if you want to work on a horse's flexibility and twisting ability, that did it! We finally got to a trail, but a hundred yards later Bandit seemed to want to leave it. Okaaayyyy.... Finally got close to a good wash but the entry required pushing thru spiny brush ("_Ouch! Owww!"_), then a hop down onto a bunch of loose river rock. But it really was the most sensible option and Bandit knew it. When he accepts something as "right", he does it without hesitation or qualms. We found a shady spot and I dropped the stirrups because I was pooped and just wanted to hang around my horse, so to speak. The top was taken after we started walking away, and the bottom is the shorter position from 9 July:














The easiest way to see the difference is to compare my knee to the latigo holder. In the shorter stirrup (bottom), my knee ends up folded in line with the hole. There is a 2" gap in between the holes to adjust the stirrups of the Abetta, so each adjustment is the same as 2 holes in most English leather straps.

For arena work, shorter is better. For the desert, I think longer works better. Ideally...I would be able to adjust them halfway between....  Oh well.

By ride's end, my jeans were wet with sweat from my crotch down to the tops of my boots. Think Bandit was glad to get home too. We did a fair bit of trotting (when we were on a trail) and it only took 30 minutes total, but it was 30 minutes of genuine exercise for us both!


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## gottatrot

I get so picky about stirrup length for various activities and horses. Recently I ordered some stirrup leathers and I had them put in double the amount of holes so I can adjust them in tiny increments.


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## whisperbaby22

One of the benefits of my souped up natural ride. I can adjust those stirrups 1 millimeter if I want to.


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## bsms

I might look at ordering new fenders that have 1" holes. But they are $150+ now....yikes! Something I've thought about but haven't tried is putting English stirrups (and straps) on my Abetta....


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## bsms

Rode today with my leather saddle combined with the full sized sheepskin. I wanted to try it with a LONG leg position due to some advice I had recently given on a different thread. It looks like this on Bandit as we headed out...and Bandit stopped at the candy store on the way:






It was adjusted almost too long. In a trot, I felt like I was pointing my toes to keep the stirrup on. Alternatively, I could spread my feet a little apart to get more weight into the stirrups. This is getting very close to "Old West Long":














As we headed out, Bandit being Bandit, he chose to be slightly off trail while trotting:






I eventually booted him back onto the trail because the prickly pear were inches from his legs! But later on, he once again favored getting off the trail. Why? I don't know. Strange horse!






I'm a bit proud of the picture below. Bandit got upset about something ahead when on the trail, turned...so I turned him off and we took off trotting in a sweeping arc past whatever it was he objected to. I normally expect him to WALK off trail but he wanted to trot and by this time I was getting frustrated - so I figured if he stepped on a cactus it would serve him right! Still, to be trotting cross country AND taking a picture at the same time was pretty adventurous for me!






We ended up skirting around the Yucca ahead and then did a 90 degree turn and eventually he slowed to a walk. I was looking for a place to drop into a wash - the highways of the Sonoran Desert - but there was a 5 foot vertical drop so we paralleled it until we found a spot he could ease down without jumping. The full sheepskin does give confidence but not enough that I'd deliberately try jumping off a 5' ledge. If that makes me a wussie, so be it.






The wash here was wider and smoother than I remember it. But when we got up to a deep spot of sand near the far end in this photo, Bandit decided to flop down on his belly! I've heard of horses doing that, but it was a first for Bandit! My feet and stirrups were flat on the sand but I figured I'd be able to get out if he rolled.

I started cussing. I did a tour with a Navy squadron, and many an Old Salt would have their eyes moisten with pride and respect for the fluency, extensive vocabulary, inflection and volume as I cussed Bandit up one side and down the other. When I took the reins and was about to whip him, he got back on his feet with me still in the saddle.

In retrospect, I wonder if he was trying to get rid of flies on his belly. In any case, it was NOT appreciated!

I should point out that the stirrup length was long enough that cantering felt better than trotting did. Still...I had forgotten how much the full size sheepskin just makes one feel like you can ride out anything! Coming back to the neighborhood on the ATV trail, he wanted to canter so I said OK and we cantered most of the length, until he wanted to slow.

When we got home, he had foam on his sides from the sweat. That is rare for us. I don't know how long we rode. Not long I'm sure because a lot of it was moving fast. We both got a workout. After I came in I just tossed all my clothes into the washer for a 15 minute quick rinse. I looked like I had taken a shower from the waist down. But...it felt pretty good! I found it very easy to feel very confident that I'd ride out anything he offered, and that is a good feeling for someone who still sometimes gets nervous about riding.

But if I use it again, I'll raise the stirrups an inch. BECAUSE I CAN ADJUST THEM AN INCH! And doing so will make it easier to keep my stirrups on my feet!


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## SueC

How do you keep your jeans so clean when you are riding, @bsms? Are they teflon-coated? Do you have an ostler? 😜

I have an ostler at the moment, but it doesn't keep my riding pants clean. At least I don't wear any of the beige ones from show days. It really is such an impractical colour. I bet beige was only decided upon to signal that the English toffs had servants who could be ordered to scrub riding pants for hours, while the commoners needed to actually dig potatoes and didn't have time to scrub beige pants on top of everything else...

Bandit is looking nicely shiny.

I'm wondering if you're aiming to try every possible permutation of gear. If so, I see an e-book on the horizon. Please remember to include a thorough evaluation of the pros and cons of side saddle. 😇


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## bsms

There is no mud in Arizona to get on jeans. They get sweaty when I ride, but even then...if I go to Georgia to visit my youngest daughter, the heat and humidity makes them soggier there just from walking around outside.

Here is what puzzles me: How do people ride without ever trying different ideas and concepts? I posted what I thought was a random comment on how to put a heavy western saddle (some get up to 50 pounds) on a horse's back. I posted videos from Daniel Dauphin (not well know but often has great advice) and Warwick Schiller (much better known, also with advice that often works very well). The videos show them slinging it sideways versus lifting.

It provoked a reaction from a moderator about how 'a petite woman' could NEVER use that technique because she wouldn't be strong enough. No, the petite woman either needed to avoid heavier saddles or somehow manage to lift them up, suspend them above the horse's back, and only then lower them - something physically MUCH harder. And how a 6'2" man she had once worked for NEVER, EVER slung a saddle. It would scare the horses!

But...at 152 pounds (yesterday), I'm not much bigger than a lot of women. My 5'2" wife (on Medicare now) can do it. And...Warwick Schiller's video showed him doing it with a 17 hand warmblood who had never had a western saddle slung on his back before. If someone has done X for years with very good results, it doesn't mean X is the best way to do it - but it certainly means X is a POSSIBLE way to do it!

But in the riding world...if your first instructor carried a crop and beat the snot out of a horse who disobeyed, then it means many of their students will do that the rest of their lives. If the first instructor says a horse should have its head held vertical and any horse who doesn't will be "out of control" - a description @gottatrot might remember a moderator using on a thread gottatrot posted years ago - then many of the students will spend the rest of their lives believing it it true. And if you challenge that idea, they get _really angry_!

I change things around sometimes because I get bored riding with the exact same tack on the same horse in the same area doing the same thing...and because sometimes, if I try something I had tried a few years before, I find something new to think about. Sometimes Z will work, but only if W, X & Y were done at the same time. Sometimes saddle X "doesn't fit" because saddle X was designed to be ridden with a longer (or shorter) stirrup WHILE ALSO using a slightly different posture.

I'll stop ranting, finish my cup of coffee and go feed the horses. But it really bugs me. Given the variability in horses, rider bodies, environments and goals, how can riders be so dogmatic about things they have never tried? Or at a minimum, shouldn't they have some hard data to back them up? And shouldn't we try to keep an attitude of, "_That sounds really weird. I wonder if it would work?_"


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## SueC

...but aren't your horses dirty, @bsms? I mean, they roll on the ground don't they, and therefore should be transferring dirt to you...I'm not being facetious, I've never been with horses anywhere and managed to stay clean. Even grooming them...

The problem with a lot of mods, as Brett puts it, is that forums can become like little fiefdoms to them and then they are liable to go on power trips or see themselves as "the authority" because of their elevated power position in the hierarchical structure - which actually has nothing to do with the quality of their thinking or grasp of subject matter (even though they often come to like to think it does, as politicians often will, to the great detriment of the world - we're just discussing this phenomenon with another group I'm in online...).


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## Knave

I am the only person I know who lifts, suspends, and sets a saddle onto my horses. Everyone teases me because everyone slings. Lol. They say it’s easier, I believe them, but I am stout and I lack certain types of coordination. Lol. So, for me, it’s easier to do it the way I do.

I will say, the colts I ride will flat panic when someone swings a saddle the first time, but they get over it soon enough. Queen has more of a dramatic temper, so she would probably hold onto it if I let someone else saddle her.

That said, the colts husband starts really dislike it when I saddle them the first time. It’s just what they are used to. His transfer better that way than mine. I’ve tried it, but I always set it where it doesn’t belong, and everything ends up under it. Lol

I wish I was coordinated enough to do it. My saddle is super heavy. Husband laughs that it has a cast iron tree. Super dry it was around 50#s, and I am an over oiler. It’s probably closer to 65#s. Now, that isn’t an awful lot of weight, but when Cashman is 16.3 and dug that stupid hole he puts me in while I saddle, I wish I did swing a saddle on.


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## bsms

But...you've tried things @Knave and have reasons for what you do. You don't tell your husband to stop slinging that saddle or it will scare and/or hurt the horses, or that slinging a saddle cannot be done. I have ZERO issues with someone saying, I tried X but prefer Y. Or even, I had a bad experience with X so now I always do Y. Or, My horse doesn't like X or Y so I do Z with her.

I also wouldn't object if someone said, "Suspending and lowering gave a peak impact of 17 pounds versus slinging giving 87 pounds". But "I've never tried it so it should / cannot be done"?

BTW - I don't think I could lift and lower a 60 pound saddle on Bandit's back, and he's only 15 hands. Remind me to never make you angry, Knave....


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## bsms

SueC said:


> therefore should be transferring dirt to you


Fenders?

















Even my Aussie-style (NOT genuine!) saddle had really long flaps. I used to get dirty jeans down near my ankles, though:


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## knightrider

bsms said:


> And shouldn't we try to keep an attitude of, "_That sounds really weird. I wonder if it would work?_"


Absolutely! Fantastic quote, thank you @bsms 

I don't know who posted that Warwick Schiller video about two years ago, but I watched it with extreme interest. I do remember it was posted for @Kalraii because she was having trouble getting her saddle on Katie. She liked the video and said she would try. I liked the video too, and thought I would try. Schiller said that it was a learned skill, and he suggested we practice on a fence post a bunch before doing it to our horses. I am still practicing it. (Not on fence posts, on my horses) Some days I get it just right and other days, not so good. I am selling off some of my heavier saddles and changing to lighter ones. @4horses sells and buys used saddles and also knows a lot about saddle fit, and is a regular riding buddy, so I have a lot of help in that department.

I was actually surprised by that comment by the moderator because she is normally more of the mentality of bsms's quote above. I decided everybody is allowed to have a bad day . . . and an off thought . . . from time to time.

I'm still practicing that skill of slinging that saddle up. Warwick Schiller does it so effortlessly. Sometimes I miss and it isn't great. Luckily, my horses are patient and put up with all my _"I wonder if that would work." _ideas.


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## Knave

Well @bsms, luckily Cash would let you swing it. Lol. It does suck to have such a big horse to saddle and mess with. Don’t get me wrong, I love Cash, but all these people talking about tall enough horses kill me. I guess riding cutting bred horses forever did not prepare me for that beast. I thought General was massive, and he’d look tiny in comparison to Cash. Everyone does.

For a time my mother was wishing her next horse would be big. Now, that black horse she bought is pretty big, but not Cash big. Thoroughbredy big… I was pretty sure if she had to handle my big beast for a while it would change her mind. Saddling him is fine, but it is harder than Queen by a long shot. Also, getting on with winter clothes is killer. His 16.3 is very wide, so the stirrup hangs high on him and it’s just a pain in the tail.


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## Knave

It’s funny to ride him somewhere though. It always causes a scene, and the first thing anyone asks ever is “how do you get on that horse?!” Then, there are discussions about if they thought they could get on him by the older cowboys, and they laugh and say they’d have to get on him off the fence, and that would be too embarrassing to do.


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## bsms

I took some lessons at Utah State in 1978(?). Taught by an old cowboy. There was a 17.2 horse. At 21, I could just manage to get on him. And IIRC, we SLUNG the saddle UP and over him. Now? Bandit is 15.0 or so, and that is MORE than tall enough for me! Given my age and the lack of any family that would want horses, he'll probably be my last horse. If I had the choice, I'd like to look for an Arabian mare...but 14.2 tops! Heck, 13.0 Cowboy kind of tempts me sometimes...


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## Knave

Everyone laughs about Zeus, because he’s only 14hh, but I don’t see what the problem is! They wouldn’t even notice if he wasn’t so different all over I don’t think, but it is really nice to get on him and saddle him! I don’t see why a lot of older type people don’t ride fjords. I know they would be embarrassed to ride something odd, but that little horse can do absolutely anything. There is an old guy I just love here. He can’t get on his horse with anyone looking, because he is stove up and has to cheat. The horse he recently bought is a jerk too. It’s really too bad, because he’s in bad shape. If I had a bunch of money to burn, I’d buy a fjord colt and start it for him. He needs a Zeus.


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## gottatrot

I agree so much about how beneficial it is to have an attitude of curiosity and trying new things. 

I finally met up with Kadeera's owner (she is an Arab/QH whose owner has asked me to work with her) and she has a couple saddles for me to use on her. One is an Aussie and one is Western, so I am interested to try the sling method. 

Most people around here sling their saddles. However, there is slinging and there is slinging. I've never seen anyone sling a saddle like Dauphin or Schiller. That looks very slick. Most people seem to swing their saddle at the horse from a lower angle, which means they tend to whack the horse with both stirrups and then the saddle ends up halfway on the horse, so they shove it the rest of the way on. Some horses do seem to tense up and flinch at this treatment, understandably. It's rather like the riders who slam themselves down into the saddle when mounting. 

I've not been a "slinger" because I've not wished to whack the horse, and had not seen it done so gently and smoothly as in the posted videos. But also I've often had synthetic Western saddles that are light enough to lift onto my shorter horses.


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## SueC

bsms said:


> Fenders?


Possibly - I mean, that stops you getting horse sweat and direct-contact dirt on your pants, I suppose. While thinking about it, the English did that by wearing top boots, and then us Aussies preferred ankle-boots for riding and get terribly soggy inside-lower-legs from it if riding sweaty enough horses.

But no, I was just astonished in general at how clean the denim was on your riding jeans even where they don't contact the saddle, because I tend to get dirty before I even get on the horse, unless the horse, myself and the gear and clothing have been through the washing machine pre-show and I've gone to some manicured showgrounds with a horse that stayed dry in the trailer. Just grooming horses I get covered in dust from their dust baths, and then they rub their heads against me or dribble on me or whatever else - and I can't remember that ever being any different, although the amount and colour of dirt depends on the soil types and pasture cover etc of where the horses are kept, and whether it's been raining or not...

Also I never, ever have clean fingernails unless I've spent a week not working with horses or gardening - no matter how much I scrub...

I've never ridden in a Western Saddle but have to say that setup in the photo looks incredibly comfortable.

We rarely saw Western Saddles when learning to ride in Europe and I remember when friends and I saw someone actually riding in one, we said, "Oh, they have a sofa on their horse!" 

The person in question was not a great rider - in Germany, the people using those in our district tended to be people who wanted a horn to hang on to even at the walk, and we used to joke about installing seat belts on them - also some yahoos who just wanted to be cowboys in a Western film. So the Western saddle got an unfair reputation amongst those riders based on the subgroup using them where we lived. Also they wore all the dress-up gear from specialist stores - it was like Halloween in a way, or just dressing up as policemen and popping toy guns. It was as incongruous as if you as an American were suddenly to wear traditional Bavarian dress and ride oxen, as a hobby...














bsms said:


> Even my Aussie-style (NOT genuine!) saddle had really long flaps. I used to get dirty jeans down near my ankles, though:


I've never ridden in an Aussie saddle either! Knees look a bit uncomfortable to me because I am used to having my lovely soft AP kneepads. Also they tend to overhang the saddle so I'd probably be on the seam in yours because of my long femurs.

How is it that you don't chafe on the inside of the leg with the way jeans tend to fold around the inner seam etc? Do your jeans not have an inner seam? I had exactly one pair of jeans I could ride in comfortably and they were elastic fabric and so tight-fitting they didn't crease.

Bandit seems to be enjoying himself on his outings, judging by his body language!


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## SueC

Knave said:


> It’s funny to ride him somewhere though. It always causes a scene, and the first thing anyone asks ever is “how do you get on that horse?!”


That would make me want to play a practical joke and turn up with one of those rope ladders...in the saddle bag, and then unwind one when they ask...


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## gottatrot

@SueC, certain brands of jeans are made for riding such as Wranglers, and they are made with flat seams. I usually feel for flat seams before buying. A lot of the stretch-fabric jeans now are fairly seamless.


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## bsms

SueC said:


> How is it that you don't chafe on the inside of the leg with the way jeans tend to fold around the inner seam etc?


It is hard to analyze s problem one has never experienced. Not just me. No one in my family and no one visiting - including people who have never touched a horse before - have ever had an issue. So this is a GUESS:

I learned to ride using the Aussie saddle to keep from dying. Smooth, _slick_ sides. I don't think I could have gripped with my knee - nor did I need to. Initially, the poleys would stop me if Mia suddenly stopped, spreading her feet wide and dropping a foot at the withers. But before long, I learned to rely on the stirrups, not the knee. I rode with a loose knee because there was no option of holding on with my knee. And once you use the stirrups, and if need be spread your knees apart so weight can flow into the stirrups, then...one has no need for tight knees.

On a western saddle, there isn't an option for using the knee. Not with my build. My knee hangs off below the bottom of my saddle, just below the knot in my latigo:






Family and friends ride western so maybe the same thing. In fact, if one watches old westerns...some of the stars didn't know how to ride, but the extras were often ranch hands making some extra cash, riding in the Old West style - and their lower legs were often out and away from the horse's side. FWIW, riding in English saddles, I never had an issue with stirrup straps either - but I rode them with a loose knee too.

Another possibility: Twisted legs. Much of English riding teaches "Toes straight". I took a 10 lesson set when in High School, and all I remember from those 10 lessons was that my feet were supposed to be parallel to my horse's side. That is sometimes BRIEFLY true, but I'm usually like these:















So maybe my legs are twisted in a way that brings the seam to where it won't cause an issue?

A third possibility: Home position. I obviously ride with my feet well into the stirrup. Maybe this brings the strap further back. And western, it results in my fender wrapping around my calf and laying against my shin.

*IOW: I don't know. No one around me ever has the issue.*

But since students often do, I wonder why instructors don't take close up photos or videos to figure out WHY some people have issues and others do not!


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## Knave

@SueC I throw those jeans away. Some chafe my knee. I don’t keep those ever. I’ve made the mistake of keeping them and then I accidentally end up wearing them to ride over and over. No way!

It’s rare enough, I think it can be common with certain brands of jeans, but I don’t rebuy those jeans unless it was a fluke with jean brands I wore prior. Also, a bad trait some jeans have held for me, is hiking up. I think those jeans have a twist to the material or something. They will hike right up and bunch at your knee. That leaves the knee getting rubbed and the lower calf. Those jeans are my nemesis. The last bad trait to a throw away pair is where the inside seam overlaps. Sometimes it is in just the wrong spot for riding…

I will say, it has been a long time since I’ve had a bad pair of jeans. I might wish them on an enemy, but it’s such a sad thing to get a bad pair. Especially if you are like me, and rarely get new clothing.


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## gottatrot

The jeans that hike up are the worst. When I started riding in half chaps it helped, but lately I've been riding in so-called "lifestyle boots," which are shorter than tall boots and also have a wider top opening. They are easier to put on and off than half chaps, and less hot. Plus I was having a problem with getting my pants wet in tall grass, and these boots are waterproof. So I tuck my jeans in and they work pretty well for riding too.
These are the boots - kind of like wearing a rubber boot but leather so more flexible and breathable, and don't rub your ankles. I hate tall boots, hard to get on and off plus you can hardly walk in them. I don't like breeches either. They're too thin for hacking through woods and brush, and most don't have good pockets.


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## SueC

Knave said:


> @SueC I throw those jeans away. Some chafe my knee. I don’t keep those ever. I’ve made the mistake of keeping them and then I accidentally end up wearing them to ride over and over. No way!
> 
> It’s rare enough, I think it can be common with certain brands of jeans, but I don’t rebuy those jeans unless it was a fluke with jean brands I wore prior. Also, a bad trait some jeans have held for me, is hiking up. I think those jeans have a twist to the material or something. They will hike right up and bunch at your knee. That leaves the knee getting rubbed and the lower calf. Those jeans are my nemesis. The last bad trait to a throw away pair is where the inside seam overlaps. Sometimes it is in just the wrong spot for riding…
> 
> I will say, it has been a long time since I’ve had a bad pair of jeans. I might wish them on an enemy, but it’s such a sad thing to get a bad pair. Especially if you are like me, and rarely get new clothing.


You are describing exactly my experience! A person might get away with jeans like this for 20 minutes at the walk but I always had my beginners I gave rides to on Sunsmart in tights of their own or lent them riding pants even just because most jeans here have metal studs on the pockets and the back ones will badly gauge and scratch saddles.

I think maybe in countries where jeans aren't usual riding attire, they aren't made to suit riding. I wore jeans a lot outdoors as a kid and until recently (army pants have useful pockets all over for tools etc), but usually changed into riding pants before hopping on a horse after experiencing what you describe - including that I got so badly chafed once on a 2-hour trail ride with lots of trotting as usual that my skin peeled in sheets along the knees and lower leg and was red raw. 

And in Germany, they didn't recommend riding in jeans for that reason. I think it's likely that in the US jeans that suit riding are more widely available, because many people want to ride in them. While Wranglers sell here too, they are an expensive name brand here and you're looking at $80 upwards a pair, compared to $40 for no-frills elastic riding pants. I got most of my jeans from op-shops in recent times and had this one burgundy pair at $5 that was close-fitting and elastic enough to ride in comfortably, no bunching, no riding up the leg, plus no studs!

But you know how neither of us can bear clothing labels? Post the chafing incident there were a couple of times I got tempted to have a quick ride on a horse without going indoors to change first, but the moment I was in the saddle I recoiled at feeling the seams and folds and returned the horse to the tie rail so I could go get changed...

@bsms, I don't grip with my knee, I use my thigh adductors etc to make enough overall contact to get static friction rather than sliding with the contact area as a whole, and I don't overly rely on my stirrups because I rode bareback a ton as a kid, including over jumps, and learnt balance and lightning reactions - and competed deliberately in bareback and no-stirrups gymkhana classes for mounted games etc. As a beginner I depended heavily on stirrups, which is normal and why riding instructors in Europe and some in Australia too will take the stirrups off beginner riders regularly once they get to a certain point, and make them trot and ride turns, which is hard work and really gives beginners sore muscles! Before I got good at this, I had my worst crash ever out on the trail when a whole trail group bolted and nearly everyone fell as the horses stampeded home riderless. I lost a stirrup as the horse galloped slalom through a pine plantation and then I was done for and fell on my head at speed. These days I could mostly ride that same erratic pattern stirrupless and have never again fallen off because of losing a stirrup since working on having an independent seat - and I do occasionally lose a stirrup, and this will of course always be at speed and doing turns...


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## bsms

See, I learned a "stirrup-centric" approach from Littauer and the US Cavalry manual. I've never lost a stirrup in a spook - but then, I ride deeper into the stirrups than most teach now. And the Cavalry _taught_ the home position precisely for that reason. That, and a stirrup-centric approach allows one to use the ankle and knee to actively spread things out and reduce peak pressures.

I've never seen any advantage to riding stirrupless apart from practice for bareback or any rare time one loses a stirrup. Since I believe the saddle is part of protecting the horse's back, and since I've never lost a stirrup...why would I want to do something "_which is hard work and really gives beginners sore muscles_" if the end result is harmful to how I want to ride?

It is a double edged sword. Practice riding without stirrups is good if you lose your stirrups, but it also teaches your body to ride from the thigh and no lower than the knee - which then increases the chance of losing the stirrups! When I hear people talk about lower legs going everywhere or not keeping their stirrups and then see video, they are almost always riding from the knee up, losing both knee and ankle as flexing shock absorbers AND disengaging from their stirrups.

What Littauer taught has largely been lost, but it really works. If one is using the knee as a flexing joint, absorbing weight, and is balanced over the stirrups because one's weight really is _flowing past the knee and into the stirrup_, the lower leg becomes very stable and...well, in all of Mia's violent spooks, spins and bolts, I never lost a stirrup. Because I was IN THE STIRRUP, just like the Cavalry said I should be. I balance in the stirrups, just as I would on ground. And since my legs are active clear to my feet, my leg muscles are always engaged and never hang "like damp towels" to use an expression from a dressage book.

I suppose I "surf" on Bandit (and Mia before him). I don't have lightning reflexes. I do have legs like iron, but only because I run so often. Well, and I do use my legs constantly as I ride, but I use them for flexing. Bandit is my dirt bike, so to speak, and the stirrups are my foot pegs. Surprisingly few dirt bike riders complain about losing their foot pegs all the time....

This makes me very radical from the perspective of European riding and (from what Littauer wrote) to German riding theory. But I think it also makes me very light on the back, and it certainly has worked well from a spook & bolt perspective. If I get really radical, I'll hold the horn in one hand and do an extremely unusual 3-point: *Left stirrup, horn, right stirrup!* But that "3-point" is very forgiving on the horse's back and extremely stable, both of which Bandit obviously appreciates.






Mia was seriously considering a "Turn and burn" due to a huge moving van ahead of us. I eventually coaxed her past it. But if the saddle girth held and she didn't fall down, I'd go ANYWHERE she went like that. Meanwhile, neck reining gives the horse the feeling of freedom about where she is going to go because you don't force a horse's head to do ANYTHING while neck reining. By the time that photo was taken, I had long since stopped using the poleys to help me stay on.

I think the European approach to riding is screwed up. Littauer (and to an extent Caprilli before him) taught the Forward Seat as a SYSTEM, not a seat. Littauer took the idea further than Caprilli, but its emphasis was lightness on the back, freedom of the mouth, rare use of legs all while riding in a way that almost anyone could learn in 3 months. Littauer taught over 75% of his students to jump 4 foot obstacles in 20 rides (IIRC), provided they were beginners. It took longer if they had experience!


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## SueC

You can obviously think what you like, @bsms, and you often do, contrary to the evidence. This has nothing to do with European-ness, and the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and I safely venture to say I'd outride you in pretty much any competition in any discipline you care to name, or in any dodgy trail situations. And that's not just because I started riding as a child and you didn't. I think @egrogan would do the same, and many other adult beginners I know. Horses have taught you a lot, because goodness knows, people often don't stand a chance. And of course you're going to like Littauer, like you actually took some points from Tom Roberts (except the one about independent seats apparently) - they worked for the military, and that's a trust point for you, while other expertise is eminently a target for your way of thinking, and you spend a lot of time trying to discredit others.

There you go - I was blunt, and told you what I think instead of saying nothing, and now I will excuse myself, and leave you to it. Maybe you'll reflect on it, maybe not, up to you.


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## gottatrot

I'm a very stirrup-centric rider too, and I ended up there as a solution to riding Amore in particular, who was lightning fast and spooky. In my case, I struggled to find the elusive perfect independent seat, which was something my riding instructors worked on with me. In my case, balance from above the knee just wasn't good enough for me. I find that is fairly common with seat-centric style riders when it comes to big spooks, bucking, etc.

Hopefully it is obvious from my videos that I am not exaggerating when I say a horse bucks, bolts, etc. My stories are true. 
Hero crow hops and kicks out and spooks, and he's _much_ easier to stay on than Amore was.





Amore would just disappear sometimes. The so-called Arab teleport. 

It was George Morris who said that the rider's security is in the lower leg. When I read that, I began studying videos of riders at the top levels going over cross country courses. Galloping and going over uneven ground, over huge obstacles, horses darting to the side at the last minute, I suspected those riders must have the most secure seats. What I saw was that they also base their riding on the lower leg and are stirrup-centric. It is my belief that the proprioceptors we use when walking come into play when we use our stirrups, and help us balance faster than we could if someone were to push us when sitting on a chair with our feet off the ground (no stirrups). 

That idea changed my riding, and I began to have what I call an independent seat. Which meant I began to stay with Amore on her worst spooks, and with all the other difficult horses I rode as well. I can't say that I have ridden in the most extreme manner possible, since I personally have not gone over huge cross country jumps on a super hot horse. That being said, I believe I have ridden in more extreme situations than most riders, and tested out this seat. 

It gives me a lot of confidence. Many times I have galloped and/or jumped on a horse I was riding for the first time that day. A lot of riders have not galloped in groups of five or six riders with competitive horses, or even just ridden horses that are extremely spooky out on trails regularly. I've been on quite a few panicky horses, bolting, bucking, rearing, spinning. 

If you watch my ankle in this video, it shows to me what the secret is to riding securely with weight in the stirrup. Your joints are what keep the stirrups from being catapults, and the "still" lower leg everyone strives for is based on the fact that your legs move up and down on the horse, and also your joints flex and absorb the up and down movement. 





I really like visuals, and to me you can see an extreme version of this shock absorption and still lower leg in racing under saddle riders. 





In my case, the stirrup-centric seat improved my bareback and stirrupless riding. It put my focus on keeping my weight down into the lower leg, which can be done even when bareback. But without stirrups it is easier for me to get bucked off or spooked off. 

It just makes sense. If a horse made a movement so fast that I was off center enough to be "past the point of no return," where gravity was going to get me, I could still push on the stirrup to fight that effect. You also have the ability with stirrups to lift yourself off the horse's back. If you've been on a really skilled bucker or been in the wrong balance over a big jump, you know how the horse's back can come up and toss you forward. If you can remove your body from contact, then no matter what the horse does, they can't hit your seat and throw you up and off balance. 

This isn't something that is an anomaly that just works for me. I ride with a lot of different people. I know two seat-centric riders who can stay on nearly anything, and are very experienced. One depends on stirrups at times, although she doesn't weight them, and she uses her lower leg the way I do when riding bareback, with her weight stretched down rather than relying on the upper leg. The other one also does that, but I don't think she needs stirrups for anything. She is kind of a freak of nature (we joke), with a very short torso and extremely long legs. It's almost like she was built for riding. 

The rest of the excellent riders I know, who can ride through about anything all are stirrup-centric riders. Nala's rider is one. I also know many seat-centric riders, and other than the two I mentioned above, all of them will fall off during spooks and lose their balance. None could ride Hero or Amore or Halla or Nala. 
If you are in a western saddle, you can rely less on the stirrups. That being said, even many western riders who ride a lot of horses like Warwick Schiller do ride in a more stirrup-centric manner.


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## Knave

I ride in that way I think, unless I am in Cash. I have no problem riding bareback either though, and on Cash I have leftover concern he will fall, so toes only for me with him. I do press into my stirrups a lot though. I find @gottatrot explained it very well. There is some sort of balance there when things get off.

My best bronc ride was done stirrup less though. I think I would have felt a lot better with stirrups. It was my fault the mare blew up, and boy could she buck! We teach our horses a shoulder back, but if you don’t teach a horse to cue from his shoulder, he will be very upset about that. This I didn’t know.

I was riding husband’s filly, I think she was four. Her name was Sister and she was a short and solid well bred mare. Stout stout. She didn’t have a backup. I didn’t know the rule about shoulders, and I was irritated with her attitude about it. I took my feet out of the stirrups to cue her better, because I thought all people taught a horse a shoulder back (I was only 18, so forgive my ignorance). Oh, she flew backwards for a second. Little did I know she was setting herself up for the best bronc ride I’d ever make. Lol

I would have been bucked off, and almost was, but I changed my mindset. I’d have been hurt bad if she bucked me off I figured, so I decided to think about riding her instead.


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## bsms

SueC said:


> You can obviously think what you like, @bsms, and you often do, contrary to the evidence....while other expertise is eminently a target for your way of thinking, and you spend a lot of time trying to discredit others.


I can give very detailed reasons WHY I've come to my conclusions - and have, many times, often as my ideas were developing. I accept many can and will disagree, but neither personal insults or appeals to authority mean much to me. If that is what you wish to offer, then it would be best if we avoided each others' journals - be it riding, politics or medicine.

Science (and thought) advances by being challenged and by re-examining what we thought we once knew. I certainly don't believe what I first thought when I took up riding, nor is what I thought 5 years ago what I think now. In the years to come, I'm likely to reject some of what I believe now. As much as I appreciate what VS Littauer wrote, I appreciate it as much for his explaining how and why he came to his conclusions - and there are a number of things I do differently, although I think if he was alive we could talk and he'd understand my reasoning (if not agree).

FWIW, like Littauer, I fully accept some great riders on some horses can and will be most successful riding largely from the knee. I recently got a book on show jumping in the 70s and 80s. It is a collection of articles by successful riders discussing the horses they've ridden and their thought process. I enjoyed seeing how they varied their approach based on the horse, but not so thrilled at how winning and judging affected the answers they came up with. It was both the best and worst for me - caring riders tailoring their approaches, yet also locked into riding for successful results that included judges who expect a certain look or style.

And, of course, what people need to do to ride bareback or jump without stirrups is up to them. _That is another problem whose solution doesn't interest me_. Honestly, I don't have the sort of ground available to me to experiment with either, even if I had the desire.

But while it is possible to learn riding using strong grip of the knee (and thigh), I can't avoid the obvious problem: When one does so, one must lose the knee joint, calf and ankle for absorbing the shocks of riding. Random Internet photo below:






From the knee on down, the horse's body is either vertical (offering almost no support) to angling away from vertical (no support possible). Without using the stirrups, the rider's leg effectively ends at the knee. A hinge cannot work using only one side. It takes two sides to form a hinge. So one loses the ability of the HINGE of the knee to flex, absorb shock and support with the lower leg - to include the ankle, which I was using heavily the other day with very long stirrups.

_I also admit that I have little interest in what a great rider may chose to do with a particular horse in a particular sport or activity._ I have no basis for judging the rider since I'll never be great and I don't know the demands of what various sports require. I'm interested in what works very well for recreational riders on a trail, many of whom struggle to get in 1-2 hours of riding a week, and who will also never be great riders riding at the top of some sport.

Riding in the stirrups was developed by Caprilli as a good way to teach new recruits (who might only spend 2 years in the Army) how to ride over very demanding terrain. Safely, and with minimal pain to the horse. People who come out to our place and go ride with me sometimes have never touched a horse before, or will only ride once or twice a year. What works best for THAT rider? That is my interest.

But...I have noticed that losing stirrups and an unstable lower leg seem highly correlated with gripping at the knee.


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## bsms

gottatrot said:


> But without stirrups it is easier for me to get bucked off or spooked off.


Amen. Not really a player for some riders, and a top rider in almost any sport is willing to accept some risks that I cannot afford - both due to age, due to having no incentive, and to the prospect of landing on a Teddy Bear Cholla:






For someone who often skips a helmet, I'm actually very risk adverse.

I've bookmarked your comments in post #2,884 for future reference. I think you explained it well. I really don't mind if excellent riders make a conscious choice to use their knees heavily versus the stirrups. If they are excellent riders, what have I to say to them?

It is teaching it as the best way, an almost mandatory approach, and emphasizing spending many hours practicing no stirrups to develop the powerful grip - all to inexperienced, recreational riders who may do well to get in a hour lesson a week. I don't think someone like myself spends enough time on top of a horse to develop the "inner legs of iron", even if I wanted to.

​


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## Knave

I was thinking of a random thing. I lose my stirrups in barrels and poles. I guess it’s from picking up your legs at that speed to kick, although I’m not a massive kicker. Also your foot can just slip out on those turns because of the weight in the stirrup combined with the horse tipped so far. Anyways, there is a trick. When you do those two particular events (and the only place for some reason stirrups seem so easily dropped), you rubber band your feet in. You take the rubber bands and put them around your toe, down under the stirrup, and up around your heel.

It’s just a random trick for those specific events. I don’t know why one rides so differently in them, but obviously I must too. Say down the fence; it’s fast as barrels, and the turns are much harder and more intense, but stirrups aren’t commonly lost. I’m not sure what exactly the difference is. Maybe it is in sitting… to hit that turn down the fence you suck into the saddle. Also, you don’t ask your horse for the speed, because he knows he has to have it. His speed is monitored by the cow. He has to get in front of it just enough to cause it to take that turn. He pressures it himself. He knows exactly how much he has to give. If he is outrun, it is his bad luck. He goes with all he has, and sometimes it just isn’t enough.

Running barrels or poles, the rider gives the horse his motivation. The rider keeps him going his hardest. Rather than sitting deep into the saddle to hold oneself in the saddle during the hard turn of the fence work, one is more forward. The turn is not so dramatic, and speed is requested during it. So, the seat is forward, where the seat in the fence work is deep and backwards. Of course, the fence work turn does not maintain forward motion. It is a slide stop combined with a roll back at top speed. It is intense!

I have never lost my stirrup in those turns.


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## Knave

I should say the straights are ridden the same in all of the events. They are forward, but there isn’t kicking on a fence horse.


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## Knave

Here is something I think we can all agree with. I don’t care at all where someone puts their weight in a saddle. I don’t care how someone saddles their horse, what saddle they choose to use on the horse, or what breed the horse is or if his head is three feet long.

I guess that is evident about me, because I take a good ribbing for riding mustangs and having a Zeus. Some people love Zeus and beg to ride him at brandings, and some people look down on him because he is so different. Lots of people look down on Cash and Queen. Yet, these horses get the job done. Well, Queen gets the job of a two-year-old done.

I feel that way about riding. If you get it done, aren’t mean to your horse and feed and water him and do his feet, then good for you. How you do that is irrelevant as long as you aren’t mean or abusive to the horse. Bsms and @SueC, you both do the things I expect out of a horseman.

What’s funny is that Cash, who is different, is the horse I have most ever been asked to sell. Lots of people want to buy him, and it blows my mind after all the teasing I got for owning him. He is a good dude and people see it.

I don’t train like any of the big names, and they look down on me for that at times, but if I show I compete against them and do darn good. They must then be forced to realize that I knew what I was doing, whether or not that is how they would do it. There are lots of different ways to end at the same result.

I am pushing the boundaries for how I am starting Queen. Many would push theories towards me, and many think I will fail. I might to be honest, but I want to try a new idea. I want to see how this idea pans out. It is a gamble, and I am taking it knowingly. To do something wildly different takes a lot of nerve for me. It is hard to go against the norm, but I am doing it and hoping in the end I am again able to be competitive against the best. Then people can decide I either got lucky, or maybe my idea wasn’t awful.


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## gottatrot

I think you're right, @Knave, in my experience if you take your weight out of the stirrup at the gallop to cue, you can easily lose it. In the canter, you can use the timing of the horse being in the air, but the gallop is too fast (at least for me) to coordinate so easily. 

Although I don't care how others ride either, I've often wished to help people who are struggling with security. That's why I feel the need to be able to explain how to keep weight in the stirrups. It is tricky because people tend to become too tense and push the stirrups forward, and the stirrups become pivots or catapults. It's so common to see in videos people with the flopping or swinging lower leg at the trot and canter. Also, in order to post and two point easily and without fatigue, the right amount of joint involvement and weight distribution must be engaged. For truly unpredictable riding: are there any steeplechase or cross country riders who are like, "Nah, I don't really need the stirrups?" 

That being said, there is a way to ride with a deep seat and stiffer leg that is also rather stable, using the stirrups as a brace. @bsms has posted photos of this style in cowboy photos, but it is also common with gaited horses. It's often seen with Icelandics and in speed racking. So the straight, forward leg is not necessarily a western concept.

















Moving forward at speed, you're less likely to have fast turns, and also gaited horses tend to be less flexible in turns. 

Just based on what I've seen in the riding world, and my own experience, it's more rare for a person to learn a very secure seat without learning how to use the lower leg. As George Morris says in the link below, once you're an expert rider you have "creative license" to swing your leg or balance on your knee, etc. But I think some are hindered from becoming excellent riders because they don't learn the concept of using the lower leg and stirrup, and so never become truly secure. I think that I was not a natural rider, and even after many years of riding I was not secure for every type of spook or buck when I attempted to ride with my thigh and seat balance. 

The hard part is that keeping a stable and secure lower leg involves the friction along the side of the horse as @SueC mentions, and also the joint involvement that @bsms describes. Don't forget the hips, because they also are important in the overall shock absorption once you are two pointing. A basic to me is that with stirrup-centric riding, changing the angle at the knee should only involve the thigh and not the lower leg. That is key to keeping your lower leg stable and under you. 








During jumping, posting, galloping, ideally only the black line changes. 
Even the best have issues with letting the lower leg slip back, and in my bucking video I lose my connection in the end. When that happens, my balance is temporarily compromised. 

George Morris critiques some top riders in this article and many of them lose their lower leg at times.
Showjumping Style with George Morris | The Horse Magazine


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## Knave

That makes a lot of sense @gottatrot. In my world rarely does one see a beginner. Most are raised in the saddle, and it seems littles eventually figure it out around here, or they would be miserable in the hours they are stuck in a saddle at work. They figure out how to read a cow for the same reason. Sure, we scold them, but if they don’t want to fix mistakes all of the time they start watching. Some of course are better and more natural than others. My brother, for example, never took to cowboy work. He can ride a horse, he can kind of read a cow, but he’s too hard on both. To him a horse was always a tool, and a cow was always a job to be done.

He never did get a good seat on a horse. He sored horses up too, but that was because he never cared about being scolded 8000 times about not tying his coat unevenly and that sort of thing. It never seemed to matter to him. He didn’t like it. That’s all there was to it. There are definitely those people too.

I wish those things could come easily to adult riders. In a way, I feel the lessons take away from learning those things. One doesn’t come to a natural feel because they are always told it needs to be a certain way.

I like what you are saying though. Tricks like that help. Then, there are more advanced tricks, like the exercise I gave to learn to control the different body parts and how one’s weight effects those parts. I think I am better at helping with things like that than things like how one’s weight in the stirrup helps. I could see how a person giving lessons could bring someone up quickly in a different way, by mixing the way we teach our kids with the way lessons work.

If a person, unlike my brother, spends a lot of time in the saddle, it feels to me like they will find a sweet spot for them. Like how when you train for a marathon say, your run changes. I ran so oddly before I started running, and my form changed. It wasn’t from an effort on my part, but it seemed my body figured it out.


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## bsms

gottatrot said:


> It is tricky because people tend to become too tense and push the stirrups forward


That is part of why I suggest people spend a lot of time in two point. You can't push the stirrups forward AND stand in them at the same time. That is why, for example, I argue posting should be about folding and unfolding in the two point position, versus grip with knee and rotate around it - as it is often taught.








The "Old West" seat is more of a defensive position. It works fine with a western saddle because a western saddle has so much shock absorbing area behind the rear of the rider. To a certain extent, who _cares_ if one is putting pressure to the rear of a western saddle?

It is also very stable - particularly with a nearly straight leg with weight still in the stirrups. One of my theories is that horses have to work at their balance and by being stable, the rider takes that part of the problem away. I think a horse would rather have a stable and predictable load on their back, particularly with a western saddle, then they would a rider who is trying to help them with a forward balance BUT who is flopping around while doing so.

It also is helpful if your horse is about to do a dropped shoulder spin - something Mia did a lot of and Bandit will do if he thinks he has a threat ahead (javelina?). It is also helpful if your horse is likely to slam on the brakes without asking you first - another thing Mia was great at and Bandit will sometimes do.






Not that Bandit goes to that extreme, but the principle is there. With a nearly straight leg and my feet forward and out, his "Time to turn 180 NOW and beat feet!" is much easier to ride out. As was Mia's, without my being slammed into the poleys - which was why I started it.

But few English riders are trying for a defensive, long legged seat. They are sitting versus straddling, and because their center of gravity is behind their stirrups, trying to put weight in their stirrups drives their feet forward. And instructors teach them to use a fixed knee and to rotate around that spot to rise to the top of a posting trot - versus staying balanced over one's stirrups and unfolding. The _solution_ would be to get balanced above their stirrups rather than...grip harder and try to muscle the lower leg into stability? We should always encourage riding from balance, not via hard work!

*I see no value in telling any experienced rider how to ride*. They do what works for them and it isn't as though I'm some great authority. But a lot of new riders on HF are told they NEED to ride no stirrups until they can post easily without them - and THAT really is a poor way to learn. Not when they can easily - as "within 3-4 rides" - learn to use the stirrups, fold and unfold, staying in constant balance with their horse - and at the same time, fixing a wandering lower leg and feeling balanced. If anything, a fixed knee and muscle teaches stiffness - which Littauer (who taught many hundreds, and gave clinics to thousands) found hard to correct in them.

That was one of Littauer's frustration with German writers, who argued it wasn't possible to ride balanced in the stirrups even though (back in the 50s and 60) many American riders _were_ taught to do it. Easily, because riding from good balance is always easier to learn than riding via strength. Now, for a specific horse or sport, riding with great strength may be needed. How would I know? I never do it!

But again...HF has a lot of recreational riders. *People like me, or who ride even LESS than I do!* It frustrates me to see them getting advice that may take them years to learn, if ever, when there is an easy way that they could learn in a few lessons. Maybe one lesson, if they could hold the horn of a western saddle and do two point and post while using the horn to stabilize as they learn to _feel _the correct balance.

I find it frustrating to see riders with less than 2 dozen rides in their life, riding once a week, being told to imitate top competitive riders on top competitive horses. I think a lot of lesson horses get tired of it too! I'd prefer to see lessons taught on trail rides, but lessons certainly ought to focus on how quickly they can get a new rider to riding with confidence while also taking care of their horse's back and mouth! Some riders (my son) just don't care enough about a horse to listen and learn to be gentle. That is why he hasn't been on any of mine for some years now. But many are learning the hardest way possible, when the Italian and US Cavalries taught total newbies how to take horses across incredibly rough terrain in a few months!


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## bsms

Knave said:


> He never did get a good seat on a horse. He sored horses up too, but that was because he never cared about being scolded 8000 times...


That was my son's problem. He doesn't take instruction in anything. He treats a horse like a car. And in fact, he's incredibly hard on cars too! He never shuts a door without slamming it and never just eases off the gas but keeps going fast until he needs to brake hard. I was hoping he'd figure out on Cowboy - who has tons of personality - that he was riding a person and that person has feelings and if you work with those feelings, the horse will work with you.

But there are some who, IMHO, are not capable of learning to ride. Even if they learn to stay on and give cues, they won't learn to ride. My son, sorry to say, is one. 😕


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## Knave

That is like my brother. He’s grown up a lot, but he never was good at taking care of equipment or animals. I believe he was a good mechanic in the Air Force though. He’s a good worker, and takes orders very well, but just never really cared for things.


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## bsms

Just a couple of short notes on the last 2 days rides.

Yesterday: Rode in the arena because I wanted Bandit to get some exercise and didn't personally feel up to a trail ride. Used the solid, low port curb and mostly used it with two hands. Mia used to be VERY good at responding to an opening rein when ridden two handed. It occurred to me Bandit ought to be able to feel an opening rein on a solid curb as easily as Mia felt it on a snaffle - and direct reining with an opening rein would be a very gentle way of steering Bandit. So we did lots of serpentines (along with an occasional canter and a lot of stops to nibble grass). I think with some practice the low port curb and an opening rein will work well. Mia responding to an opening rein years ago:








That is all it took for her - just move one hand a few inches out and she'd go, "OK. Guess it is time to start a turn..."

Today: Did a trail ride. Bandit was on pins and needles. Couldn't figure out why and he didn't know. He wasn't sure where or what, but SOMETHING didn't feel safe to him. I took him out of the brush and into a more open area. He wasn't happy and I tried to explain that in the open country, I could see a threat before it was an immediate threat. He wasn't buying it.

I turned him back early. Not much fun riding a worried horse. Then I spotted them: 2 large German Shepherds running loose. I was right. They were 75 yards away and even if coming toward us, I could have turned Bandit into them in time. But they were moving at an angle away from us. Bandit didn't see them and I just nudged him on at a walk, figuring a run might give the dogs reason to pay attention to us. I kept an eye out behind but they made no attempt to follow.

A couple minutes later, Bandit started to relax. After 5 minutes, he was calm and chill. We were BOTH right. There WAS something odd, and it was the equivalent of 2 wolves. They may have been a quarter mile away, or closer in the brush, but there was SOMETHING out there that wasn't trustworthy. And Bandit knew it. Nice to know that when he gets nervous any more, there is probably a good reason for it.

And I was right too! I did spot them once we were in the more open country and did have time to assess the degree of threat. And I got Bandit safely away. So...I did my part too.

The dogs both had collars. I hope they will get home but I wasn't going to try to deal with 2 strange German Shepherds while on horseback. Sorry. Too much risk of injury.

But...Bandit and I were both doing our jobs. Properly. I gave him some neck rubs as we strolled home. He agreed he deserved them. The boy has plenty of ego.... 🤠


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## Knave

I have been there! I know what you mean entirely. I am always so happy if I spot the problem and they miss it. I guess I always figured they knew what the problem was, although they couldn’t spot it. I think you are probably right though, or at least you’ll have me thinking about it. Maybe it is just the feeling something is wrong for them. Something is off and they can’t decide what it is. I’ve had that feeling myself.


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## pasomountain

Sorry to butt in but I've been reading your posts about riding in the stirrups and that's something I have struggled with. For example I am that person who feels like they are going to catapault out of the saddle when I put weight in my stirrups cause I tend to pop up more. Also, if my leg is too straight hanging down I pitch forward sometimes before I can engage my lower legs. But if there is more bend in my knee and less leg pressure in the stirrup then I have a better seat. However, I still don't feel very secure if on an unfamiliar horse! I only ride western, mostly trail and some arena. Even though you all have tried to explain it I still am not clear on how to achieve this security based on my personal experience. Maybe this would be good for a separate thread?? I don't know but I really appreciate your insight!


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## Knave

@pasomountain I think the way you describe what happens you are trying to stand in your stirrups when you put weight in them. That’s what I’m imagining anyways.

It’s not standing in them… hmm… most of your weight and balance is just sitting on your butt. That is where the main part of your balance should come from. Somehow, try to just sit there for a minute. Relax your legs entirely for a moment, let the weight of them drop and rest into the ball of your foot in the stirrup, which will drop your heel only because the leg is resting. So the weight of the leg is on the stirrup, and your weight is on your bottom. When you then are compensating for a lack of balance in whatever, a quick turn or anything like that, the foot will brace and pick up that slack. Does that make any sense?

I saw my father give a lesson to my oldest daughter recently. She was struggling with her slide stop. He was making her lope fast smaller circles, ask the horse to slide without picking up his face, then back him and rollback. Anyways, what he kept saying was that she was riding for the horse. She was too tense. She needed to ride him like the couch, and let him do the work under her. That is what I think maybe you need to work on, letting the horse do the work and you sitting on him comfortably. Relax into your bottom and let your legs relax into the stirrups allowing the weight of the leg to rest there.

Does that make any sense to you? I could try again.


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## bsms

pasomountain said:


> they are going to catapault out of the saddle when I put weight in my stirrups cause I tend to pop up more.


If you BRACE against the stirrups, that would make sense. If you flex at the knees with weight in the stirrups, then you choose to be A) in the seat, B) a half inch out of the seat, or C) several inches above the seat - if the stirrups are short enough.

I like the way a former forum member put it years ago: 

"_The first lesson was to adjust the stirrups so that the leg was carried almost straight. Enough bend was left in the knee to just lift the butt off the seat of the saddle even at the trot.

The second lesson was to learn to ride with significant weight carried on the stirrups at all times.

The third lesson was to move with the horse, if it leant over, then lean with it.

The rider sat upright and straight using the feet to compensate and resist the forces of gravity and movement by pressing down on the stirrups - which were almost being used as 'pedals'....If the weight was held on the stirrups, then the rider could not rise too high so long as the stirrups had been adjusted correctly for Western. The knee joint took the strain of rising to the trot._"

When trotting, I prefer to be in two-point. _My sitting trot sucks_. But my leg is long enough that I won't get very far out of the saddle anyways. At a walk, I fold my leg enough to rest mostly rump on saddle, unless the ground id rough. Then I "pedal" a bit with the footpegs...um, stirrups. At a canter, it varies. Something about Bandit's canter - some I do in a half-seat (or 7/8th seat in my case), but sometimes it just feels right to settle down on his back. I haven't figured out the difference but he has a canter I find hard to sit and another canter than I love to sit.

Walking down a medium grade, Bandit's hips sway. My youngest was riding behind us once and she said Bandit looked like a hooker trying to find a client. I asked her how she knew what that looked like and didn't get an answer. But his back does wiggle side-to-side in places like that and I use the stirrups to....resist? To keep some pressure in? To pedal?

It is kind of like standing in the back of a pickup as it bounces down a road. You wouldn't want to brace or you would bounce too. Maybe ride like a surfboard?








Or...








But hopefully not:








Question: Do people take lessons to learn the proper position for riding dirt bikes? I guess they do. Reading this...sounded familiar!









Proper Riding Position & Technique To Ride Dirt Bike Better - Motocross Hideout


Proper riding position and technique is a must if you want to become a good dirt bike rider, but no one really shows you what it actually looks like.




motocrosshideout.com



I think this video might make Littauer smile. Note they talk about gripping with the knee - but the smooth tank will NOT allow a "fixed knee". I think it is the equivalent of gripping the horse with your LEG, while keeping the knee flexing. No idea what they would do if their dirt bike smelled a couple of German Shepherds running loose:


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## gottatrot

I've also found the balance of riding similar to what you do in skiing. 
If the skis were stirrups, the person on the left might be trotting or cantering in that balance, and the person on the right could be a jockey. 
You're using your joints to absorb the shock and your stirrups are like the ground, basically. If the stirrups push against your balance, that means your joints are not flexed and loose enough.


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## gottatrot

I've been thinking about rein aids after reading the recent post talking about the opening rein. It made me think about how, when and why I use various rein aids with horses. 

I was wondering if others tend to use a variety of rein aids during a ride or even moment to moment. I am thinking that I attempt to use a direct rein most of the time, but with a green horse or less responsive horse (Hero), I often switch to an opening rein. So I pull straight back, but if the horse needs more guidance, I move my hand out to the side to be more clear or forceful. 

Something I never do is pull the rein upward (breaking the line from mouth to elbow). Apparently that is called a pulley rein, which is how some describe how to do an emergency stop. There is a serious problem with that in my opinion. If a horse is that strong or out of control, you're going to need to use your core and balance to pull back on the horse. Pulling upward is not a strong or balanced solution. 

I have an image in my mind of myself on a horse that is bolting away, and it entails getting the full force of my weight down my legs, while using my chest, upper back and arms to pull toward my core at about belly button height. The videos I see of people pulling upward do not show a horse that is galloping away strongly, or unwilling to stop. So it appears to work. This rider is going to pull toward the core/waist, not upward. Maybe even slightly lower toward the hips. How would raising the hand help? It would degrade your strength. 








@Foxhunter also said she did what I do, which is if the horse won't stop, to fix one rein against the neck while pulling strongly with the other in a slow pull and release. But then switch reins, to the other side. This will tend to change the horse's balance, and often will cause them to switch leads. Sometimes you can swap them back and forth which will make them slow. 

My point is that for me using the reins is a dynamic situation. My supporting or bearing rein (what I think of as the pressure on the other side of the bit opposite the direct or opening rein to keep the bit and cues stable), might quickly turn into an indirect rein (pushing against the horse's neck). I also use my hand to push for some reason, it just comes naturally to me. 

I rarely use only an indirect or neck rein, but I do on horses that are well trained to be used that way. I know that even speed events can be done with neck reining, but I think in forward seat riding it can be less intuitive with your balance. But working equitation and polo use neck reining, due to needing a free hand. I do see some riders switch back to two hands when they can, however. 

I cut down this video I made of me riding Brave when he was very green to show some of the ways I use the rein aids. His owner wanted me to use a running martingale, but I don't like those because they limit your ability to use an opening rein.


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## bsms

gottatrot said:


> pull the rein upward (breaking the line from mouth to elbow). Apparently that is called a pulley rein, which is how some describe how to do an emergency stop.


That isn't how I was taught to do a pulley rein. I was taught you take all slack out on one side, brace that hand against the neck, then pull hard with the other hand. It is a bit similar to when I put one hand on the horn and bump back with the rein hand. Rather than rely on balance, you have leverage between the bracing hand the the pulling hand - all done in line with the mouth - elbow. She says "up and back" but she demonstrates straight back based on the mouth to elbow - and straight back is how I did it back when I was riding Mia with two hands on a snaffle:




Sometimes alternating sharp bumps back and forth between both hands allows a snaffle to break out of the teeth (when the horse "has the bit in her teeth" which I believe is sometimes LITERALLY true). That didn't work for me and Mia too well because we usually had cactus flying past us on both sides and she'd start swerving back and forth! That is very uncomfortable, even if one has the poleys for your thighs to brace against. Add in she wasn't too balanced to begin with, and....it was actually more effective to softly call her name. When an ear flicked back, the "bolt" was over and she was just running fast. She'd stop from a run okay. Hence the wisdom of the statement, "_You don't stop a bolting horse. You stop a horse who has stopped bolting!_"

Although...I took a huge amount of flack when I posted that on HF years ago. I really got the feeling a lot of people think a horse running without permission is a "bolt", while I would call that "an excited horse running"!


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## bsms

gottatrot said:


> I think in forward seat riding it can be less intuitive with your balance


FWIW, as someone who does it a lot, I agree. Certainly if one hand is on the thigh, or is back to carry a polo stick (maybe? Never tried it.) Which is why my one hand rein in a forward seat ended up looking like this:














My free hand ends up either being close to where it would when using two hands (inches!), or on/near the horn. I can't handle the balance otherwise. Maybe because I'm old (and honestly wasn't graceful when young)!


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## bsms

FWIW, when I refer to an opening rein, I'm thinking in terms of what the WP instructor taught. If I move my hand sideways and then tug in any way, that is direct reining to me. She taught it as creating an opening the horse flows into. If the horse doesn't flow, then you give a little tug - but the goal is to train the horse to feel the rein create an opening and then flow into it to avoid any tug. It ended up working very well with Mia if she wasn't excited. If I can train Bandit into it, then it would give me a very soft option when using two hands to guide him off-trail across the desert. And then it would be a fine option for using two hands on a solid curb bit....


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## pasomountain

@Knave--yes that does make sense actually--thank you! I probably am pushing down into the stirrup rather than relaxing into it like you said. I find myself tensing up for no reason at times so I need to relax more anyway.  Great explanation.


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## pasomountain

@bsms thanks for all the info, I'm going to go over it a few times and then try to apply it with my paso. Since both my horses are gaited I don't know if anything would be different? No trotting/posting needed. When I pop out of the saddle it's usually because they tripped or made some other unexpected move. Anyway, I can't wait to try out all this stuff, I really am grateful for you and Knave taking the time to answer me.


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## Knave

I actually heard of the pulley stop in the way Bsms described. I tried it a single time in my life, and that was on Keno. Apparently that was a trick he already knew. He liked to try and run into objects, but he wouldn’t look at them once he started his run away. Like if he saw them he would lose his nerve. So, I tried the pulley stop method. He put his head straight into the air and looked me in the eyes, while running. I am pretty sure I had to change my pants. Lol. That was on one of our very last days. So, I don’t like it, but I guess I was set up to not like it.

A one rein stop is not an upward pull, but a pull to the top of the thigh. That is how I do it, and the other rein completely loose. Besides on Keno, I have found a one rein stop to be very useful and I teach all of my horses it. I did learn a thing from Warwick that I like to do as I teach it. I try and often connect it with a disengagement of the hindquarters. That is to remind them that that pull relates to that hind leg.

As far as my hands go, I neck rein older horses and plow rein younger. I try and be very soft handed. The younger they are the more I exaggerate that movement. Not with hardness, but so that they can see my hand as a direction. From the ground they watch your hand, and it seems an easy transition. I bring that in as they learn and begin using my outside rein in combination with the inside rein, and lightly. Eventually it becomes the neck rein.

I do neck rein almost exclusively roping, and so Queen for example can be neck reined off decently, but I don’t transition that into regular riding, because I want it better and more solid. I want to teach everything that the bend of ease of plow reining allows.


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## bsms

In 1979 I visited a farm in Idaho that leased pasture to cattle. The rancher left a horse to work the cattle with. One day the horse bolted, racing straight toward a barbed wire fence. I pulled his nose clear around to my knee and the expletive didn't even slow down. An old cowboy had told me a horse doesn't have to follow its nose, but always must follow his shoulders. So in extremis, kick the outside shoulder! That is what I did and he turned a little short of the barbed wire, then continued in a wide circle until he finally decided to slow. Bee sting? Beats me! I have no idea if he'd have gone full speed into the barbed wire or turned anyways. Both seem possible.

Bandit seems to prefer a lot more rein than I would like to use. I find it frustrating but I don't know if I can convince him to ride otherwise. I wonder though if using neck reining has convinced him he needs some tension to feel my thinking. So I want to go back to riding more with two hands and see if I can soften him. He is definitely NOT anything like Trooper (with my youngest):


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## bsms

Mentioned my youngest getting home on leave last week - just for a week. She's a linguist cross-training to a different language and had a one week break in her class. Some pictures from our ride together (she's back in Georgia now). Local teens sometimes build campfires here...NOT a good idea in the desert!






We may be in a 50 or 100 year drought. Arizona has 50 year droughts every 500 years or so, and 100 year droughts about once every 1,000 - and the timing is right for either. I hope not but you can see how blasted the desert is looking after 10 years of drought - those trees were green a couple of years ago:






There is still dry grass from 15 months ago, when we had a very wet spring that got us out of "extreme drought" status...although not much since. In the absence of moisture, dead grass lasts for years! And the horses are happy to do their part to help return it to the soil....






There is a steep spot we zig-zagged our way down. We turned around here:






The prickly pear is turning yellow which means it is SUFFERING. The cholla still seems to thrive. This section actually has uncommonly good ground water for this area. As usual, Bandit prefers to be off the main path.

The one below is very common for Trooper. He walks slow, then will trot to catch up. And when I ride him, I feel like I'm riding the headless horse! Bandit's head is usually UP and looking! Trooper seems to feel Bandit will see anything that needs to be seen and will take charge if there is a problem. It makes him a good horse for a total newbie. They will get plenty of strolling. I tell them to hold the horn if need be and stand in the stirrups like a dirt bike _when_ he trots, so a number of people have had their first trot (and sometimes canter) as he catches up. But I warn them, and since they understand he is just trying to catch up with Bandit, they don't get scared, don't freeze up...and usually start wanting to do it again!






Trooper has closed it up here in anticipation of turning out of the wash. Notice the shape of the saddle means she usually doesn't have lower leg contact with Trooper. That tends to be true of me when I use my leather saddle. The Abetta is more English in feel and allows easy lower leg contact. But the leather ones seem to require folding the leg some to gain contact, and the horses accept having no lower leg contact just fine:






End of ride below - with Bandit's "end" as well. We tack up in our little arena. Bandit is done untacking and I'm giving him a chance to eat mesquite beans while my daughter finishes with Trooper. Her being her and Trooper being Trooper, she then insisted on hooking the lead rope around his neck and letting him follow her like a puppy to the corral. No photo of that, though.






At this distance, it is uncertain if Trooper is staring at his protector Bandit, or staring at me and thinking unkind thoughts. That horse really has no use for me. I won't miss him when he's gone, and he'll gladly urinate on my grave if I die before him, but I _respect_ him as a trail horse. We'll never have any warm feelings toward each other. But it has nothing to do with how he'll _ride_ for me.

PS: The last couple of days we've gotten some good rains. I'd be THRILLED if the next 50 year drought hits sometime AFTER I'm dead and gone!


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## Knave

It is funny how it goes that way. Sometimes we just don’t click, even when nothing is wrong! Lucy and I are like that. She doesn’t like me. Oh, she’ll tolerate me, and if I was to work hard on our relationship I think it would work, but we just don’t care for one another. It used to hurt my feelings in a way. “What did I do to you?,” being my type of mentality.

Since I took care of her a lot during her pregnancy, I think she did really love me then. Now, since I haven’t been going out there with her and the needy hormones are gone for her, we are back to just ignoring one another’s existence.

I would be devastated if she died though. Not because of me, but because of how important she is to my husband. I am already worried that she’s never going to be a riding horse again. Her feet haven’t improved yet.

If I died she would care less. She’d probably think I had it coming. There are moments she’d miss about me though I think if she thought hard about it. If we ever trade horses at work, she always appreciates me then. I don’t know what it is. Maybe it’s because I weigh less and she is tired, so it gives her back a break.


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## bsms

An interesting approach to showing population density:
















More found here:








Amazing 'spike maps' that will change the way you see Earth


Eye-opening population density spike maps reveal the true scale of how jam-packed coastal areas are - and the staggering detail that NYC could hold all the people on Earth standing shoulder-to-shoulder.




www.dailymail.co.uk


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## whisperbaby22

That is interesting. I also like night shots that show all the light polluting lights.


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## egrogan

This is fascinating. I love creative data visualizations like this! I have taken courses on how to use various software programs for this sort of thing, but I fear my brain was trained to think in charts, graphs, and tables and I'm too old to be this creative. I am always so pleasantly surprised with what our younger analysts are able to "see" in datasets that I can't.


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## gottatrot

That is very interesting. You can see why those of us who have always lived in the west are surprised to see what it is like in the east where so many people are. Before I went to Florida, I had the idea I might want to move there, but it was too crowded for my taste. Look at the upper half of the west coast where I am from, and then look at the east coast. We thought we'd just drive the coast up to Maine and did not realize how much traffic we would be dealing with. The ideas of rural and remote are far different in various parts of the US.


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## bsms

In the top picture, you can see the Tucson-Phoenix corridor, which has most of Arizona's population. You can also spot Salt Lake City well to the north. In between? THAT is where I want to find a home...and you can see why my anti-social self might want to move from the southern edge of Tucson.


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## Knave

Mine is a blank grid. Lol


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## egrogan

Knave said:


> Mine is a blank grid. Lol


And all the people escaping the two East Coast spikes come to me!


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## bsms

New England is a beautiful place, @egrogan . It would be, like parts of Arizona (including where I live), prettier with fewer people, not more!


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## bsms

egrogan said:


> Most days it was in the mid-80s temp wise with humidity also above 80%.


Just finished an arena ride here. Checked. 91 degrees but...32% humidity, which still felt a little muggy to me! My farrier and I discussed it the last time he was here - how when we visit back east, there comes a point where we get out of the car to get gas and WHAM! - the wall of humidity is upon us!







Bought this from Riding Warehouse:













Thinline EZ Harmony Bitless Noseband Bridle Converter | Riding Warehouse







www.ridingwarehouse.com





It is an upgraded version of one I owned a few years back. Teamed it with my oldest and rattiest headstall and did an arena ride with Bandit. We've been having a GREAT monsoon season, almost daily rains of 0.2" at a time. Lots of green grass in the arena. So I rode Bandit for 25 minutes - perhaps half of it moving, half of it grazing. Rode with two hands. This won't be a good one-handed riding option, but Bandit is adjusting well to an opening rein. A couple times he got a bit wound up, head elevated, and it took a stronger alternating finger pressure to slow him down.

But when he DID slow, he got to eat fresh green grass! And most of the time just the slightest alternating fingers were enough to signal a slow. I gave up on a straight sidepull a few years ago because of the times Bandit would get too excited. But 2022 Bandit isn't 2020 Bandit and definitely not 2018 Bandit - and I'm a better rider in 2022 than in 2020 / 2018 / 2015 also. So it MAY work. We'll do a few more arena rides before taking it out on the trails.

Bandit never dumps his mind. He may decide we'd be better off somewhere else and hurry us in that direction, but unlike Mia, he never goes stupid! Much of our "cues" now are based on knowing each other. Bandit CAN get feisty at times, but...it MAY work now. And if he'll listen, the reward will be an option that is very light and makes eating a breeze!


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## bsms

I'm wondering if a sliding ear headstall would work. A sidepull doesn't require / need or really allow someone to pull straight back a long distance the way a snaffle bit does. Maybe add a simple ring on the bottom so I can use it as a halter to use when leading Bandit - although just clipping the rein to one of the D-rings would probably work fine.


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## jgnmoose

Hi @bsms, you could try a sliding ear. The way I understand it the brow band headstall is meant for, or ideal for two handed riding because it is supposed to keep the bit/bosal/noseband fairly level. Some die hard spade bit people swear by them for the same reason. Throat latches are another thing some people just feel better about having one. Have fun


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## bsms

Various aspects of life have been getting in the way of riding, so this was the first afternoon I've been back on Bandit to work on riding in the sidepull. The arena, due to the regular rains, now looks like this:






It will dry up when the rains stop, but I tried (as always) different stirrup lengths and decided this would be a good time to_* just get used to the shorter position*_. It is a rare chance for Bandit to eat green grass, grown long enough that sugar content shouldn't be an issue. I don't think shorter is any less secure and it offers more freedom for bandit. I just need to get used to the feel!

And trotting and cantering around with the arena like this, we did a lot of "_Canter To Full Stop with a 120 degree Twist_" movements - hopefully good for a high score from the judges and great practice for riding out a spooking horse!

I don't know what makes ONE clump so much better looking than another, or if he really DOES do the twisting stops for style points, but we rarely stopped straight ahead. And we spent a lot of time like this:






Why the clump there versus the larger and greener clump to the right? Only Bandit knows. A half hour had me sweating and my back tired - which is fair enough since I had done a 4.5 mile run/walk earlier: run a telephone pole, walk a telephone pole, running then walking in equal parts. I'm old enough to _deserve_ to be tired!

Yesterday we went to Chiricahua National Monument:






I've never been there before but I liked it. At noon, just as the thunderstorms were about to hit, it was 72 degrees...at 6-7,000 feet MSL. A few pictures:














The mountains on the horizon are 70-80 miles away. The ones on the right side are just to the east of Tucson. There is a rough-looking section about 1/4 of the way in from the left in the above photo. That is Cochise Stronghold.







We had the grandkids with us. Sorry to say, but I think they would have preferred looking at games on their phones to doing short hikes with us. I do not understand the fascination with phones. Thank God I grew up before smart phones were invented (not to mention the Internet & Cable TV).


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## Knave

I should say I agree that I am happy we didn’t have phones, but here I am reading your entry while Queen sits and airs.


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## whisperbaby22

Yea, beautiful photos, I wish I could have gone.


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## gottatrot

Those formations are beautiful.

I often steer horses toward the most wonderful clump of grass, only to have them veer away and choose what I would consider a far inferior clump of grass. It must look different to them somehow.


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## bsms

Something The Wife and I have been discussing is trying to train to do half-marathons. In early March, Zion National Park will have a half-marathon:








Zion Half Marathon » Vacation Races


The Zion Ultra Marathons are challenging but seriously scenic runs through the Southern Utah desert, adjacent to Zion National Park, with endless views.




vacationraces.com




Locally, Saguaro National Monument has one in February. There are also a lot of 10K runs all over Arizona & Utah. I'm not a fan of going somewhere just to look at scenery (or just to spend money eating out)...but if there is a _reason_ to go somewhere, that feels different to me. She's been walking a lot more and wants to try something a bit more challenging, so she's entered a 5K near Benson AZ next month and I'll try the 10K.

For a long/slow walk/run, we went to Saguaro national Monument yesterday and did part of the 8 mile loop. The wife did a total of 3 1/2 miles, turning around when she was ready. I did 7 miles, but it took me 100 minutes and I learned that going an hour without water is OK by me but 90 minutes without a drink was pushing it. So Camelbacks are ordered. I'll add the 8 mile loop has a LOT of hills - as in almost all hills. But I could probably do the entire loop the next time.

I remain convinced that walking gives 80% of the benefit of running with 20% of the cost to the body. There are 4 hours to finish some of these half-marathons, and averaging just 3.5 miles/hour would mean finishing inside the window - which would be our goal. I've known a number of hard-core distance runners in my life and all of them would be supportive and encouraging for anyone in their 60s just _trying_ a half-marathon! I've never had speed but the very fast runners I've met never seemed to look down on anyone for not being fast. Just glad to see someone doing what they can.

I did come across a rattler, whose picture I took after passing him. He watched closely while I passed but wasn't aggressive and was about to go on his way when the picture was taken:






After a long dry spell, this area has received 300% of its normal rainfall for late summer, getting much of the area into long term "moderate drought" status instead of "severe drought" - the best we've been in a decade. You can see how quickly the desert responds to a few weeks of good rains:






The Wife can be a bit like a teenager in getting very interested in something for a few weeks and then losing interest. I'll see if she stays interested. But if nothing else, she wouldn't mind volunteering at some of the half-marathons - a chance to talk to strangers, which she loves and I could go the rest of my life without doing! So we'll see. At our age, the biggest part of training is NOT GETTING INJURED. Someone in their 20s can recover in days. In one's 60s, it can take months!

Haven't ridden Bandit much lately and just in the arena, which is knee high in grass. I need to get him OUT but I'll admit he thinks a short ride with lots of green grass is _totally_ acceptable!









Arizona has been doing good but you can see Utah is still getting hammered by drought:


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## Knave

I think you would love it. I am the same way, but something about running somewhere new is just wonderful. The people are all so nice, and the scene is a fun one.

My aunt talked about us doing a trail race in Zion, but honestly I’m thinking of getting out of the half marathon game. I do love it, but I don’t love the timing they usually are. It makes it really hard to train when I am heavy in spring or fall work.


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## bsms

This will be more travel/running oriented. Not about horses. The Wife and I are trying to work up to do a half-marathon. We're scheduled to do a 10 K in a couple of weeks. Yesterday morning, we did (at our own paces) Sabino Canyon. It climbs about 600' up over 3 3/4 mile, then you turn around and go mostly downhill back to the beginning. So 7.5 miles round trip. Neither of us could keep jogging the entire distance. My GPS program says the total altitude gain - since the road goes up AND down along the way - was 1000 feet. The 10K we're scheduled for has a total altitude gain of...one HUNDRED feet. So much easier! But here are some photos of a pretty canyon. There is a shuttle bus that goes to the top.
























Tourists taking the shuttle were there to say hello to when I got to the top:
















​A map of the area. It is on the north edge of Tucson:






Bandit is doing fine. He isn't being ridden much but he can go a week or more and then ride as if he had been ridden daily!


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## gottatrot

That looks like an amazing run! Let us know how the 10k goes. It's so nice having a horse that stays consistent even if you don't ride regularly. Of course, Hero was always the same too - consistently spooked and bucked, LOL.


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## knightrider

Oh my gosh! You were in Tucson when I was in Tucson. I was thinking of you when I was there, but I did not think you were close.


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## bsms

Came across this. Don't know how accurate it is but it seems plausible:






And one of my favorite horse charge scenes:


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## bsms

Flip side, I'm pretty sure there is a reason the European and US Cavalries didn't put handles on the front of their saddles:


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## knightrider

From someone who did theatrical jousting for about 7 years, I have to agree that the cavalry expert is 100% correct in the things he says. One thing he doesn't discuss is eye slits. The smaller the eye slits, the safer the helmet. On the other hand, the smaller the eye slits, the less ability you have to see. Even with wider eye slits, as you gallop, you can see, not see, see, not see as the horse's body moves up and down. I knew a jouster, unfortunately, who had the lance shatter and enter his eye slit and pierce his brain. He lost the ability to do a lot of things that adults can do, like drive a car or have a social life. It was very sad. As the guy said, jousting is really dangerous. But as he said, so is training horses.

Another thing he didn't discuss was air holes in the helmet. The longer the joust, the more the rider is re-breathing his own carbon dioxide and the less oxygen there is in the helmet. Even with air holes, when we took our helmets off, we were puffing pretty hard because we didn't have much oxygen to breathe. Some of those helmets had no air holes and I wonder how they managed.

Thanks for sharing, @bsms. I really loved watching those clips!


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## gottatrot

Very interesting videos. Some of the scenes the cavalry expert discussed I'd also thought were very realistic. I liked hearing the breakdown of the equipment and how things seemed real or not. 
The Australian charge scene was great too. Seems crazy but also plausible that even with the cannons and machine guns, a large group of horses would be spread out enough and moving fast enough that some would get through. With the long distance to travel, it also made sense they all started the horses slowly together, and then worked up into a canter for a while, and didn't gallop until they were within range. Otherwise the horses would have been worn out before they arrived.


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## bsms

"The Light Brigade started at a walk because the horses could not maintain the charge speed for over a mile. When the first line was well clear of the second, Cardigan ordered “Trot.” The more experienced men knew at that speed it would take them about seven minutes to reach the battery. As they trotted down the valley, ten Russian guns could reach them....

As they started down the valley, many of them had no hope of survival. "_A child might have seen the trap that was laid for us, every private dragoon did._" - Captain Thomas Hutton, 4th Light Dragoons. Cardigan knew it too but he was determined to set an example. He led at a trot and was determined to hold that pace until only 250 yards from the enemy. The men hoped he would quicken the pace but this trot was according to military regulations....

As shells opened gaps in the line, the men closed up to maintain a solid, compact line that would hit the enemy with a devastating shock. The officers were more intent on setting a good example, and if they shouted out at all, it was to urge the survivors forward. Lieutenant Percy Smith of the 13th Light Dragoons was disabled, his right hand left useless by a shooting accident, and although he normally wore an iron arm-guard he had mislaid it that morning and rode without it, controlling his horse with his left hand. He carried neither pistol nor saber, yet rode on anyway, calling out to the men behind and cursing the enemy....

"_It was about this time that Sergeant Talbot had his head clean carried off by a round shot, yet for about thirty yards further the head-less body kept the saddle. My narrative may seem barren of incidents, but amid the crash of shells and the whistle of bullets, the cheers and the dying cries of comrades, the sense of personal danger, the pain of wounds and the consuming passion to reach an enemy, he must be an exceptional man who is cool enough and curious enough to be looking serenely about him for what painters call “local color.” I had a good deal of “local color” myself, but it was running down the leg of my overalls from my wounded knee._" - Private James Wightman, 17th Lancers"


The Charge of the Light Brigade at the Battle of Balaklava, October 25, 1854, Part II of II – Black Gate












"_We went on. *When we got about two or three hundred yards* the battery of the Russian Horse Artillery opened fire. I do not recollect hearing a word from anybody *as we gradually broke from a trot to a canter*, though the noise of the striking of men and horses by grape and round shot was deafening, while the dust and gravel struck up by the round shot that fell short was almost blinding, and irritated my horse so that I could scarcely hold him at all. But as we came nearer I could see plainly enough, especially when I was about a hundred yards from the guns. I appeared to be riding straight on to the muzzle of one of the guns, and I distinctly saw the gunner apply his fuse. I shut my eyes then, for I thought that settled the question as far as I was concerned. But the shot just missed me and struck the man on my right full in the chest.

In another minute I was on the gun and the leading Russian's grey horse, shot, I suppose, with a pistol by somebody on my right, fell across my horse, dragging it over with him and pinning me in between the gun and himself. A Russian gunner on foot at once covered me with his carbine. He was just within reach of my sword, and I struck him across his neck. The blow did not do much harm, but it disconcerted his aim. At the same time a mounted gunner struck my horse on the forehead with his sabre. Spurring "Sir Briggs," he half jumped, half blundered, over the fallen horses, and then for a short time bolted with me. I only remember finding myself alone among the Russians trying to get out as best I could. This, by some chance, I did, in spite of the attempts of the Russians to cut me down._"



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charge_of_the_Light_Brigade



The movie of the Australian Light Horse was very realistic. It was important NOT to gallop too soon, and important to hit the enemy lines while still in formation! Once the final gallop started, pretty much all heck would break loose with excited horses starting to take over control.

Thank you for the perspective, @knightrider ! There are practical matters that movies often ignore, but movies that do - preferably without CGI! - benefit from the reality. Even in a fantasy, as Tolkien wrote, "_The author ‘makes a Secondary World which your mind can enter. Inside it, what he relates is 'true': it accords with the laws of that world.... *The moment disbelief arises, the spell is broken; the magic, or rather art, has failed*.’_" Much of my problem with modern movies is rooted in inconsistencies or stupidity that ruins my ability to "believe" in the world being created. I wanted to watch the "Rings of Power", but when the first episode had Galadriel decide to swim across the ocean...apart from having already ruined the book character of Galadriel, the idea of ANYONE swimming a thousand miles deliberately just made me turn it off.

CGI has become pervasive but it often just looks a bit off. I'd much rather watch animation - a cartoon - than "live action" where the action is obviously NOT "live"!


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## gottatrot

I agree about the need to believe and have consistency in books or movies. There have to be rules that apply and make us stay in the story. I've not yet watched the Rings of Power, because I read some reviews and people have been disappointed about how many rules of Tolkien's' world have been changed. It sounds to me like it would have been better as an original fantasy rather than attempting to borrow Tolkien's ideas but then changing everything so the fans are disappointed. It's not like I'm a hard core Tolkien fan, but I have read some of the books and later watched the movies, and what happened in the movies seemed consistent for the most part with the books. I know I would be disappointed if the main characters and fantasy beings did not seem like who they were in the books. 
I read some of the Wheel of Time books, and tried watching the first episode of the series on Amazon. It was so far off from the books that it made no sense, and I couldn't even recognize the characters.


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## whisperbaby22

I never watched any of those movies. I had such a vision of the story from the books, I just was not interested in somebody else's version. Some books just should not be made into movies. Just my 2*


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## bsms

Swapped saddles on Bandit the last couple of rides. He's been kind of nervous the last few rides out in the desert. Swapped my Abetta for my large (and HEAVY) leather saddle a couple of days ago and rode him in the arena. He was feeling rebellious at first, maybe because I wouldn't let him just stand and eat? When he tossed in some crow-hopping while cantering, we held a religious revival meeting. I preached and teached until Bandit saw the light and repented.

We went out into the desert today. He was still a bit nervous but we went further than normal, crossing the paved road into the area we rarely ride. Didn't stay long. Did S-turns returning to cross the paved road. It rarely has traffic, but when it does, the cars are doing 60+ mph and aren't looking for a horse and rider to streak out of the desert! So S-turns until I could tell there were no cars, and then we crossed.

Once we straightened out to cross the road, I gave some rotations of my rein hand, about 20 degrees of rotation each, to tell Bandit I expected him to calm down. Not enough to take all the slack out, and he was in a snaffle, but it acted like what some people use a half-halt for and calmed him down a little.

Back in "Good Guy" territory, he calmed down and we had a good remainder of the ride. I'm going to keep using the leather saddle. I need to shake up my riding a bit and it rides differently than my little Abetta. Old picture, but same horse and saddle:






Oh...and we're back into "Helmet Wearing Weather". High was 62 today.


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## bsms

Just saw a thread titled, *"Horses spicier riding in the dark"*. I like that! Bandit wasn't jalapeno or cayenne "spicy" the other day, but more like dry red chili peppers the other day and "green chili' today!  And about canned chili once we were back in Good Guy territory.

Although...near the very end of the ride, he shifted into a fast trot while twisting a bit from side to side. But he does that sometimes there and I've never figured out why. I've never seen ANY justification for it but if it happens, it happens at the same spot. That wasn't being spicy, just being Bandit. Not malicious. Just eccentric.


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## ACinATX

I won't ride if my horse is any more than canned jalepeno level of spicy. And really I prefer Ancho Chili level or even below. You know how it is -- as we get older, the spice level we can tolerate seems to drop.

Or maybe it's just me.


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## bsms

Not really about horses. This is a video of Paris in the 1890s. Around the 3:30 mark, there is a horse drawn fire engine.




New York City early 1911:




In some ways, they had more in common with Rome in the time of Jesus than modern cities.


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## gottatrot

Those videos were fascinating. Amazing to see all the horses working. They had so much trust in their horses.


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## bsms

The youngest daughter came home for Thanksgiving and her birthday. Only here for a few days. Left with my wife driving back to the east coast. The wife will visit for a couple of weeks then fly back. We had great weather the day before Thanksgiving so walked the Loop Drive at Saguaro National Monument. In the first picture, I had hung back to get rid of some excess coffee so needed to catch up. BTW, you can click on a picture to bring it up and enlarge it.






Better picture of the rocks on the left:






We walk it in reverse of how the cars drive, so this is in the final 1.5 miles. Not much level ground. I added some red lines to help pick out where the road goes:






Took over 2 hours because the youngest insisted on wearing boots so no jogging. 8.1 miles. She was at least as tired as we were by the end! Took this near the end. It is a cholla cactus. You can't really tell by looking but I'm standing next to it, looking up to take the picture. The spines are around rider shoulder height if someone was riding by. There is a reason I get real nervous if Bandit gets nervous around cholla!


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## bsms

Wrote this on another thread but it kind of belongs here too:

Two days ago, riding Bandit solo, we came to a place he had found scary - who knows why? - the day prior. I tried to urge him thru and he gave a little rear and spin. Tried again. Same result. Tried again, but just before he lost it I turned him hard into the desert. I pointed out he needed to pay attention or he'd be covered in spines. I didn't add I would be too! Got him back around, facing the scary spot, and dismounted. First time in at least a year I've needed to do that with him.

I had pulled a groin muscle in my left (mounting) leg a few weeks ago while running and it hasn't fully healed. I was worried about getting back on but more worried about turning back and not facing his fears. So I led him thru the scary place. Turned around and led him back. Then passed thru a 3rd, 4th and 5th time on foot. Bandit was still unhappy but not as much so. I decided to mount up.

I had lots of tension on the reins (running thru the curb bit). My rein hand also had a bunch of Bandit's mane. Fortunately, he has a lot. I figured once I started up, I'd be committed. Falling off would mean landing in cactus.

Although I often give Bandit freedom to move while mounting, he understood this was not the time for it! He's quirky but I think he _wanted _me back in the saddle. I had a death grip on reins and mane but he stood stock still, which was good because my leg wasn't up to speed. Then, still with a tight grip, we went through the scary spot with me on his back. His body twisted 30 degrees to the west and his head another 30 degrees, but we travelled straight as we went thru the scary spot. About 5 minutes later, headed home, he gave a big sigh and relaxed.

The nice thing about Bandit is he understands, somehow, the difference. I don't care if he moves in the arena, to include if I use a mounting block. But sometimes I need him to hold. And he does.

But yes. I'll be on Medicare soon enough and I admit old back injuries and sometimes running injuries take their toll. Going forward, I expect I will reach a point where I'll need Bandit to stand still until both feet are in the stirrups. He's kind of a weird horse but I'm kind of a weird rider and at some level he seems to understand me. And compensate. He's 50 years younger than I am and he'll be my last horse. When I can't ride him any more, I'll stop riding. I'm not as fanatic a rider as many on HF are. Bandit may last me into my mid-70s or even a little further. I can't see myself trying to find a horse who understands me and compensates for me when I'm 75.  They aren't that common.


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## Knave

It’s sad they aren’t common. They are there though.


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## bsms

It has rained a steady drizzle for two days. Arizona always can use more water but it makes it miserable for the horses. Our setup handles dry very well and thunderstorms very well, but isn't intended for 2 days of steady, soaking rain. No matter how good it is for the land!

Rain stopped about 3 AM. The horses seem glad for some sunshine and glad to get some groceries. When it gets cold and wet, about all I can do is feed them extra to keep the fire inside burning. But they always enjoy it when the sun breaks out. And when they are eating. Should be a nice day today but I may give Bandit the day off. It is hard on their nerves when we get drizzle for days. Basking in sunlight will do wonders for his morale.


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## Knave

I’m jealous of how the trees look. Did they not get the memo that it is December?! We can always use more moisture too.


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## bsms

The trees will shed their leaves by the end of the month. Or maybe January. Then regain them by March. Part of me would love to move to Utah. Another part of me loves the sun...


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## Knave

Some places in Utah are quite beautiful. The thing I dislike about it, is the beautiful places to me are the more rural. The rural places in Utah are also very… I’m not sure how to put it, but difficult to become accepted into.


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## bsms

One of my favorite stories: In the 1980s, my now-a-rancher friend (then in college) was telling me about one of his neighbors. He kept referring to him as the "Guy From Ohio". So I finally asked him how long "The Guy From Ohio" had lived there. He thought for a moment, blushed, then laughed and replied, _"He's been living here for over 40 years, but everyone just calls him the guy from Ohio!"_ Yes, a Baptist with a Filipina wife could find things "awkward" in the more rural parts of Utah!

I think Price Utah might be okay. Richfield Utah might be. Those would be the two towns we'd most likely move to - 5,000 & 10,000 population respectively. Cedar City would be fine too. OTOH, Panguitch might be a bit awkward, along with being pretty cold in the winter.

Family issues will keep us where we are at for at least a few more years. Trooper & Cowboy might kick the bucket by then (or live another 10 years). If Bandit was a single horse and the grandkids a bit older, we might look for a town like Richfield where we could board Bandit and live in town on maybe 1/4 acre. Richfield would allow for day visits to Zion & Arches and Bryce National parks with easy access to the Manti Mountains for overnight camping:


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## jgnmoose

The guy in the first video (Shane Adams) does full contact jousting. Pretty hardcore stuff, those guys get their bell rung for real. He is a real deal horseman in my opinion, the safety and well being of the horses they use comes first, or at least that is what he portrays and I have no reason to doubt it.





There was a show on the history channel called Full Metal Jousting that was actually decent. 





Cavalry is a pretty interesting topic to me lately. Truth is the best of the best were long dead before film and movies came along, so we only know what someone was able to articulate about them. I have a hunch that the selection process to even get into the Cavalry was pretty intense, they would have been the special forces of their country at the time.


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## bsms

There are manuals on cavalry riding written in the 1800s. It was as ill-informed as many dressage books were. Not trying to step on any toes but dressage is a specialized subset of riding. It erred in terms of the best way to ride cross-country and so did the old cavalry manuals. In the 1800s, most good riders simply learned by riding lots in what would now be considered very dangerous situations. Those who survived had the opportunity to get good but IMHO _a camera and slow speed playback gives modern riders a huge advantage in examining what really happens between horse and rider!_

I was shocked and unhappily so when I first saw myself riding in slow motion. In the years since I've watched some of the best riders in the world riding in slow motion. It is easy on YouTube. I can set the speed of playback to slow motion and watch the best...and _what the best do differs from what they say they do_. Just as the camera reveals_ my _perception of_ my_ riding doesn't match reality!

Waterloo: The History of Four Days, Three Armies and Three Battles by Bernard Cornwell is a great account of Waterloo. He explains why the Duke of Wellington disliked cavalry. In essence, he believed the excitement of the horses infected their riders, resulting in the cavalry behaving stupidly. The Duke was probably right. There were multiple examples of it during Waterloo. The book is about the entire battle but I always take particular note when reading history when horses and riding is mentioned.


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## bsms

I'll add that movies and supercilious modern writers often completely screw up the reality of medieval cavalry too. We moderns make so many assumptions based on our thoughts and rarely bother to check the physical evidence to see what actually happened in the past. Things like needing to use cranes to put armored riders on the horses...argghhhh!!!!


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## whisperbaby22

Yea, with the use of friesians in movies, I feel sorry for the actresses that have to ride them. Notice we don't usually see them getting on. Most of the ladies back then rode palfreys, it would be nice to see that.


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## bsms

Had an interesting and potentially broadening ride on Bandit yesterday. The square on the center right reflects the boundaries of most of our riding. If you go off trail, it is a couple hundred acres of riding near where I live. The red mark is where I rode Bandit out yesterday.






We crossed the road, which we've done before, but we usually turn back almost immediately. This time, we went down the steep & rocky path,






crossed the wash and struck out. The ATV trail there has VERY rocky spots but we were able to move off-trail to avoid the worst. The challenging part of it were all of these:






There are a lot of them in that area and they grow higher than my head on horseback. If Bandit spooked....well, that is what would be waiting for my face! Yes, I find that intimidating! But Bandit, while very aware he had never gone there solo before, was pretty good. We then hit a dirt road and turned north toward a housing area.

Bandit was OK on the dirt road but was getting very worried about the strange houses ahead and I ended up dismounting and leading (green lines). Met a guy there driving by. He stopped and we talked. He owns a horse, lives nearby and might be interested in going riding with me.

I've never ridden with strangers and I need to think about it. He said I needed to get tapadero stirrups so my foot wouldn't catch up in the stirrup. I've thought about it before but they are designed for people who don't put their feet deep in the stirrups - and I usually do. He noticed Bandit's concern for surrounding houses (and that I was walking) and said once I had bonded with my horse, I'd be able to ride him anywhere. I pointed out I've had Bandit for 7 years and I'm pretty sure I plummeted in his eyes as a rider. Who dismounts and leads a horse they've owned for 7 years?

Seemed like a nice enough guy but I'll need to think about it. When he re-started his truck it backfired and Bandit had a moment of panic. I'm always amazed at how many people don't understand that _some horses will never be "point and go"_ - and that _some of us are content riding that way_.

So we walked on, and Bandit saw a 12' tall Grinch moving in the breeze. _"OMG! TWELVE FEET TALL! Monster!"_ We continued on and Bandit spooked at a large decorative rock. I got him close to the rock and then I kicked the rock. "_OMG! You're going to provoke the monster! Oh wait...the rock didn't move!_" Bandit looked at it with betrayal in his eyes. The rock had disgraced him. Betrayed him! Oh well.

Led him back a little to the south to get past a house, then turned in, mounted up (without tapadero stirrups) and 100 yards of tension later we were back into familiar territory. Bandit slowly started to relax. We used typical routes to get back home. Bandit needed - not wanted, but needed - massive head rubs after his mentally and emotionally stressful ride.

But...he was a pretty solid citizen as we rode through the strange desert. Suppose, instead of heading north into the housing area, I turn west and we find a route off-trail to continue west. We'd then be entering this area:






We should be able to work out way to the network of washes heading northwest. Cross one more paved road and we would enter a few thousand acres of desert. Adding the area to the right of the vertical paved road would add 4-500 acres to the 200 we've been using, but crossing one more would add thousands. Our limit would be water, not countryside:






A small part of the lower right hand corner is where we've been riding for 7 years - a section about the size of one's little finger tip! But there is a lot of land out there. The vertical road going up the middle is 5 miles from my house and is a major road. Crossing it with Bandit would be a challenge - but just getting that far would create a 10+ mile round trip! The north/south distance is 7 miles so...lots of land.

And Bandit was doing good until we turned into the strange houses. He can handle the desert. I think. Something to try to work towards. But not today. Winds kicked up today and neither Bandit nor I want to go riding together in strange lands with howling winds! But there will be other days... 🤠


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## Knave

I don’t know what to say about that guy…


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## whisperbaby22

I put safety stirrups on my rig, probably don't need them but I like them. They are heavy, and easy to pick up if I loose them. 

As for leading my horse on rides, I have often commented on that. As an older person, there is nothing better for health than getting down and walking for a while. I don't have time to walk by myself, and would not like walking other than out on the trail anyway. And at this point I feel more comfortable doing both, even though I use a pillow for a saddle. 

I'd be a bit put off by this fellow assuming you are not "bonded" (a term I never heard before the internet), but who knows - I'd go out one time to see if the two of you clicked. Or "bonded".


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## egrogan

Yeah, someone who meets you for 10 seconds on the side of the road and is giving you "advice" might be annoying to ride with. M and I like to joke that the first time we rode together, we both independently picked the same route to ride, because we each had backup plans for turning around quickly to go home if the other person was too annoying  Fortunately it's worked out pretty well for us as riding buddies, all things considered.


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## gottatrot

It's so hard to know, I guess you could always ride with the guy once and see how it goes. I've ridden with people who handed out opinions as we rode that I disagreed with, but were interested in hearing my perspective. Others gave the opinions but didn't seem to care if I agreed or not, they just put them out there. As long as we just went along and saw the scenery, and it gave my horse a friend for incentive, it was fine. Several really wanted me to change what I did based on their advice, and those I couldn't ride with again or hang around with.

The other issue with riding with another person is whether they will do things that make your ride more dangerous. I don't like riding with people who either endanger my horse or myself, or else their own horse and self. Some people are so oblivious, they'll take their horse through things he can barely handle, or let their horse threaten mine toward something dangerous (like cactus).
So whenever I'm with a stranger I'm wary for a ride or two.


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## knightrider

I'm late catching up to this. Of course I like looking at anything to do with jousting. They had a quote by a guy named Ripper that we used to work with. The video way over showed the number of falls. They happen maybe once a weekend out of 6 shows. Double blow-outs are even more rare, maybe 2 over a 9 week run of shows.



jgnmoose said:


> There was a show on the history channel called Full Metal Jousting that was actually decent.


My jousting partner Barchan was on that show. I had already moved to Florida so wasn't involved, but I watched every show of that, knowing my good friend was on it.


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## bsms

Trooper hasn't eaten more than a few handfuls for the last 3 days. Don't think it is a tummy/gut issue. He pooped next to me yesterday and it looked perfect. We've tried different foods. We think it is a throat issue that is getting worse. 

We dragged out some old corral panels this morning and separated Trooper from the others. He did eat some carrots and we've softened some pellets into near mush and hopefully he'll eat some out of boredom if nothing else. I argued for calling a vet today but The Wife wants to try one more day. If he just starts eating a little again we think he'll get going. Then he'll probably be on nothing but soaked hay pellets. 

I think his oldest half-sibling made it to 22. Most died with lumps in their abdomen at 18-20. Well, were sent to the auction for slaughter. With 3000 sheep and 50 horses, their budget doesn't include retiring horses. When they can't keep weight on any longer, they go to auction. I won't pretend I'm entirely comfortable with that but I'm a suburban guy who likes the outdoors. Not a rancher.

Trooper is 24. Maybe 23 - when we got him, they weren't sure if he was born in 98 or 99 but thought it was 98. No lumps in the abdomen but my wife thinks he has them in his neck. We've expected him to die for the last 2 years but I doubt he has another full year in him.

Cowboy is a 97 model and still going strong. I could see him easily living into his 30s. Bandit is a 2008 model and in excellent health.

Lots of people would have had the vet out by now but our experience with vets has been underwhelming. I'm not even sure if any vets around here still make house calls. My "horse trailer" has been a hay barn for 10 years and I wouldn't trust it on the road. Seems like any horse vet would give the option at least of paying for a visit but I know several have stopped. James Herriot they are not!

When we had a puppy a few years ago showing clear signs of distemper, the first three vets refused to see her. "_You can have an appointment 4 days from now..._" She probably had no more than 12 hours left to live, was suffering, and they either wouldn't see her at all or wanted an appointment days later. The fourth vet agreed to take her in as an emergency...looked, agreed it was distemper and put her down.

If Trooper doesn't start eating by this afternoon, I'll call around. Frustrating.


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## egrogan

Sorry to hear that. It seems like the past few months, I've dealt with both Izzy and Josie going off their feed. With Josie, it was clearly related to her sky high temp and antibiotics during anaplasmosis, so at least there was a reason. I can't figure out what's behind Izzy's sometimes refusal to eat much, except her teeth are old and worn down, and she is mad at the world for covering the grass with snow. One suggestion the vet had was to thoroughly clean out or even replace the feed pan, and I have had some success with that jumpstarting their appetites. Vet also suggested getting a really palatable, sweet feed type grain or adding maple syrup/molasses to other pellet food and seeing how they feel about that. After trying some of those inducements, if they still won't eat, sadly I think they're probably feeling worse than they are letting on.


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## Txshecat0423

I’m sorry about Trooper.
Hopefully he’s eating again soon.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## gottatrot

Hopefully Trooper will get better. It does sound like he's had a good life so far and your care has helped him exceed his genetics. You have to feel good about how well he's done.


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## ACinATX

Please keep us updated...


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## Knave

I’m sorry and I understand the hesitation. I hope it all works out alright, but in any case he’s had a good life with you thus far.


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## bsms

Good news on the horse front. Trooper ate about 5% of his daily ration yesterday evening. Reluctantly. We mixed the horses for the night. It was a cold night and I half expected to see him down and flat this morning. But he was up and moving. We separated them for feeding this morning (again) and gave Trooper 1/2 of his normal morning feed. He put his head in the bucket and got to eating. We'll keep him on half-rations today to see how it goes, but he may be past this episode.

Still, he's becoming more sensitive. I bought a bunch of hay pellets from a different company 10 days ago. We had used them before and they were on sale for $23/sack versus $27-30/sack (and versus $15/ sack last April!). They are a coarser grind of hay and soak water much faster. The horses were fine on them the last time we used them (maybe a year ago). Bandit and Cowboy are fine of them now, to include feeding them dry.

We're wondering if they are too coarsely ground for Trooper. I still had a 50 gallon drum with the finer cut Lakin Lite so that is what we've been trying to feed Trooper the last few days. We'll continue to feed the other 2 the coarse cut pellets and a meal of hay each day. We plan to put Trooper on soaked hay pellets ONLY (Lakin Lite) and separate him from the others during the hay meal.

Assuming, of course, that he's actually recovered. We'll know by this evening but this was the first time in 4 days we've seen him eat like he_ wanted _to eat.

Guess we're now in the learning stage of "caring for an elderly horse". We need to get serious about how things work once one dies. We don't have a lot of land to just bury him on so we'll need someone to remove the body.


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## bsms

On the "If things go wrong" side, there is this:






Livestock removal - Tucson Tallow


Livestock mortalities - horses, cows, and others



tucsontallow.com





My youngest daughter might not entirely approve but there is something to be said for "recycling". It also turns out the large landfill in Pima County allows for horse "burial". They need a heads up so they can prepare a deep enough hole and you need to find someone who has the equipment to move a dead horse.

As of noon, Trooper is acting perkier. We'll keep him on half-rations for a couple of days though. He may not be ready for recycling...at least, not yet. I'm pretty sure he believes I want to recycle him ASAP, but he's believed that since we got him in 2008. 🧐


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## bsms

Courtesy of National Review, a couple of pictures of Christmas around 1910 in NYC - before automobiles took over:
























Christas a Century Ago | National Review


A look at images of the Christmas season from the archives of the Library of Congress.




www.nationalreview.com




Imagine doing Christmas shopping on foot! I'd be a lot healthier!


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## bsms

Finally rode Bandit again. It was 60 and sunny, so I put my sweatshirt on and headed out. Well, I wore MORE than my sweatshirt, but I did ADD a sweatshirt.

Went much the same path as my last ride.







Dropping into a narrow wash early on required riding just above the wash heading south, then dropping into the wash and turning 180 degrees back to the north, only about 15 yards from the southbound path. Bandit heard the dirt bike first. It went south and continued on just above the wash. With vegetation, it was hard to see. Bandit did NOT like it but he behaved. I'm 100% certain the dirt bike rider had no idea we were within spitting distance. That put Bandit on alert and he stayed there for quite a while.

We eventually wandered past the paved road, down the steep rocky spot and crossed the wash. I left Bandit's hoof boots home. If he gets prancy or elevated with worry, his bare feet impacting the rocky ground provides instant feedback that less fussiness = more comfort!

Just before entering the housing area, we turned back into the desert. There is a path there and I hoped it linked up to another path...but there is another 150 yards of desert to cross. It might be possible. The vegetation looks pretty dense but I didn't explore it. Bandit had been stressed since the invisible dirt bike. He never stopped going forward but was increasing stressed. I want him to think "Fun" rather than "Terrifying". I decided turning around should be MY idea. And we did. He was still very alert and concerned.

I pulled a groin muscle over a month ago while jogging. It gets better for a week, then I take one wrong step and in 1/2 second, I've lost 5-6 days of progress! It was bothering me when I first mounted up and by this time - reflecting my tension in response to Bandit's tension AND how much I use my legs when riding - it was twitching inside my left thigh. That is a good sign it is about to give out. We neared the steep, rocky spot west of the dividing road.






I dismounted. My left leg was hurting and the pulled muscle was going to get worse. Bandit struggles to balance going up and I didn't need to throw him off balance. So I led him and gave my left leg some rest. A few minutes of walking stretched it out.

Mounting, I thought about @gottatrot's thread. No, I didn't ask Bandit to hold still while I ran and jumped on from behind!

I tried to rely mostly on pulling on his mane heading forward rather than sideways. Something I tried and liked was putting my free hand on the front, far side swell. The idea was to make the pressure on the saddle more straight back instead of sideways.

Don't know if it worked because Bandit decided to start a crisp walk as soon at there was weight in the stirrup. Pretty easy to keep weight to the rear when your horse is moving briskly forward during a mount! Not sure that is what I want to teach him to do but...I had a foot in the stirrup, a handful of mane and my other hand on the far side swell - so pulling myself forward and up went fine.

That is actually part of why I was taught long ago to try to mount forward. It makes it easier to stay balanced if (when) your horse starts forward mid-mount. It certainly worked but the main reason the saddle didn't shift to the side is undoubtedly Bandit's large withers and his lack of concern about minor details like "Bozo is mounting"!

Bandit relaxed when we were back in familiar ground. Visibly relaxed. As in, "_Oh Gawd, maybe I'll live to see sunset!_" relaxing. He once again wanted and NEEDED massive face rubs when home. Oh the stress! I didn't tell him this is 31 December and there will be fireworks tonight!

Entering the arena, he gave a startle and I realized a large, fat coyote (I'd estimate 50 pounds or more) was strolling across the arena. He strolled when he saw me but took to his heels when he saw Bandit coming along behind me. Probably smart because Bandit isn't afraid of canines and I'm pretty sure he dislikes coyotes. Bandit was in no mood to put up with a coyote but the coyote had no desire to stay and fight. He didn't get fat fighting with animals nearly 20 times his size.

Our average speed stunk but we didn't do any cantering. We trotted a few spots but in many places the footing meant walking slow and carefully. I could have asked for some speed coming home but I wanted Bandit to relax instead. Besides, the limited trotting we did hurt my leg and a weak leg doesn't give me confidence if Bandit gets spicey. So we chilled on the way home.

Next three days are supposed to be cloudy, cool and windy. Rain & up to 40 mph winds Sunday. Maybe rain Tuesday. Don't plan to ride for at least three days. I'm a wimp!


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## egrogan

Sounds like a good day of exploring!

With all the snow and slush in our paddocks, I’m amazed to see just how much the coyotes cross back and forth, and how often they come right through the areas where the horses spend most of their time. I guess everyone has worked out a way to coexist because it doesn’t seem to bother anyone.


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## gottatrot

Sounds like it was a nice ride. That hill looks pretty steep and looks like the horse's feet would slide out. 

I think I got away from forward mounting for a time because Halla would take off if I mounted her while out on a ride. At home she'd stand very nicely, but if she thought another horse was leaving on the trail, she'd trot or canter away. If she went fast enough and I was facing forward, I'd fall back to the ground before making it up. So I'd face sideways and at least end up on my stomach, and sometimes canter on my stomach for a stride or three. That was my version of @Knave's trick riding. 

Happy New Year!


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## bsms

Tried to ride today but it didn't work. 70 degrees and sunny. Plan was to do a short ride in the arena and then go out. But the pulled muscle in my inner thigh forced me to stop riding after 10 minutes. 😡

Had the shorter stirrup setting so I tried mounting from the ground with the thing about bracing my stirrup on Bandit's leg. Given how far I put my foot into the stirrup, it was more like my BOOT on his leg, but it worked well. However...even at a walk, I couldn't find a spot where I wasn't getting stabbing pain. At a trot, I needed to hold the horn and stand as high as I could in the stirrups. So I stopped, dismounted and dropped the stirrups a hole to see if different geometry would help.

Went to mount again...and now my stirrup/foot was on the knobby point of Bandit's elbow. I think Bandit would have ignored me anyways but there was nothing stable about it. Couldn't mount that way so went back to pulling on the mane in my right hand and my left hand on the far side swell and mounted.

Good news? Walking and trotting fine. I had to lean a bit too forward when trotting but it didn't hurt. Bad? Cantering still felt like my left inner thigh was being dissected! My theory on injury recovery is aching pain is good while stabbing pain makes things worse. In the arena, Bandit's stops from a canter tend to be pretty dramatic, often with a turn included. Not sure why but he does and I've never cared but it _really_ hurt my leg. Tried a little while longer but I need to fully recover from the injury and being dissected wouldn't help. So I stopped.

It may have been aggravated by my run yesterday. Did 3 miles in 24 minutes. OK, that's a lie. More like I did 6 half-mile runs of 4 minutes each, with panting and gasping for breath in between. But my legs and back held up so I was pretty happy. No pain in my inner thigh during the run. But riding today, on a PERFECT DAY for a ride...[Expletive Deleted Times 20!] Beautiful, sunny, warm, no wind...and it hurts too much to ride!

PS: I think the Wife has lost interest in trying for a half-marathon. I don't think I can get & stay injury free long enough to try it, but yesterday's run made me think a low-50 minutes 10K ought to be possible. Below 53 minutes would make me happy. I did 59 minutes in the fall so cutting a minute a mile off would be pretty good.

We should have some more good weather this week so maybe a walking trail ride.


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## Knave

I’m sorry!


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## gottatrot

Too bad about the pulled muscle. I would be frustrated if it was a nice riding day and I couldn't ride. I remember a couple years ago after Hero kicked my knee and the PCL needed to recover, I kept trying to ride with Nala's rider and after a short bit of trotting or cantering I'd have to say "OK, that's all I can do." Injuries seem to recover soooo slowly.

Wow, you're getting some impressive times running. In a local 10K I've done with 2,000 entries, if you finished in less than an hour (a couple years ago) you would have placed 2nd or 3rd in your age group. The 2nd place finisher averaged a 9:29 pace, so if you could do better than that you'd end up 2nd. There's usually someone in every age group that is a freak of nature, LOL, and runs way faster than everyone else. Like running 6 or 7 minute miles in their 60s. But if that person didn't enter, you might win!


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## bsms

In the 2 10Ks I've done, I was 2nd and 1st for my age group. Although when I was "1st", a guy 10 years older beat me by 5 minutes - they did the age groups by 5 year intervals. My goal last fall was breaking a 10 minute mile average. I averaged 9:40 in the second 10K. Beating that should be possible. Injuries will be the big thing. From what I've read, at 60+, the biggest key to success is in avoiding injuries - because a minor injury can take you out for a couple of months of training! Not like being 25....or even 40. 

I'll be happy if I can convince The Wife to do some 5Ks. I think she will. Both of us are wimps who HATE running (or riding) in rain or cold - below 60 degrees! But we both can handle heat and enjoy the long daylight hours of summer.

But yeah...missing out on a ride wasn't good. This week should have nice weather and I won't have a good reason NOT to do some trail rides, provided Bandit doesn't get bouncy. But today was one of those spectacular winter days Tucson and Southern Arizona boasts about.


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## Knave

You are fast! I will never be as fast as you. I don’t mind being slow right now though. It really doesn’t bother me very much at all, even if I think about it. I am happy with the miles I’ve been doing, and I want to do 20 this year. Maybe someday my pace will bother me and I will work on it, but I’m still happy I can run miles at all! Lol. High school me dreaded the mile in PE. That was the worst day. So, when I start feeling down during a run I remember that, and I’m happy.


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