# Two Horses Dead-desperate for answers



## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Michelle3, I am so, so terribly sorry to hear what you've been through. It is just heartbreaking for you, even more so to not know why this has happened.
Is there a chance that they could have been bitten by something?
In Australia, we have a disease called Hendra virus, that is spread by droppings of fruit bats in horses' water sources. They end up with similar symptoms, seizures etc. Could it maybe be something similar? 

This sounds awful, but is there any chance that someone has poisoned them?

Best regards to you and those involved, I would love to know how you get on and what has caused this.


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## Amy1977 (Feb 15, 2012)

Oh my Gosh, I'm so sorry to hear about what's happened, you must be really heart broken. I have just been reading my horse and rider magazine February issue 2012 and it tells you about a grazing danger something called EMA Equine Atypical myopathy. It's a rare but fatal disease. 
October 2011 the Uk saw several cases of this mostly in the South East of England. Its discribed as a grass sickness pasture related and appears to associated with weather changes. Symptoms: Sudden severe weakness, stiffness in the hind end mostly, collapse unable to get on their feet or difficulty standing, muscle tremors, signs of colic, depressed, still will eat and drink, low temp. And if more than one horse is the same on the same grass is a big concern. I'm not sure where your location is I tried to look on your profile. I only joined this website yesterday so not very familar with it yet. Your more experinced with horses than I am and I wasn't sure if you were aware of this illness I thought I would mention it. I hope it helps. If you live in the UK you could get the magazine for further info if needed. I hope you find out what it was. I'm so sorry for you and your horses.


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## PumpkinzMyBaby22 (Jul 5, 2009)

I am so sorry to hear that you had to go through something as terrible as this. Like Kayty already said, Hendra virus might a cause of what happened if you are in Australia. I hope you find out soon.


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

How terrible-- so very sorry for your loss.. such a tragic thing to go through.

This may sound strange- but have you tested the water? Several "strange" deaths/"neuro" symptoms have been attributed to fluoride poisoning..(fluorosis) Yes-- good 'ol fluoride...seems it is actually poisonous.. There have been more and more cases recently..


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## sierrams1123 (Jul 8, 2011)

OMG, I am so sorry for your lose, I can not even imagine loosing one much less two.

I hope they get to the bottom of these and soon, please keep us posted.
I really want to believe it was not the feed, I have always used that brand of feed and would hate to find out it was what caused it because I would have to find a new favorite feed.


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## barrelracer516 (Feb 17, 2012)

hi. i had a mare to do the same exact thing. I noticed her one afternoon and she was acting like she couldn't keep her balance & she was really wobbly. She went down and she was having the same seizures you said your horses were having. Then my other 5 horses started wobbling as well. We rushed one of them to the Mississippi State University vet clinic there and they couldn't find anything. They tested for numerous things and everything came back negative. My mare that did go down did die about a day later. Then everyone else just got better over night. The vet has come out a lot since it all happened and has pulled blood and done nose swabs everything came back negative. We still don't know what it was or why it happened.


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## Kimmylikestojump (Dec 20, 2011)

It honestly sounds like botulism to me. Botulism in Horses and Haylage


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## Annnie31 (May 26, 2011)

|First I am sooooo sorry for your loss. Losing one is certainly a terrible stress but to lose 2 is just devastating.
Could it possibly be EPM? Just a guess because it seems to have effected the spinal cord and brain the most. 
*Equine Protozoal Myeloencephalitis*. Equine protozoal myeloencephalitis (EPM) is a disease caused by the protozoan _Sarcocystis neurona_. The parasite�s normal life cycle does not include the horse; therefore, the horse is a dead-end host that cannot spread the disease.

Horses ingest the protozoan through contaminated feces of an infected animal (the opossum is thought to be the natural host and birds the intermediate hosts). In most horses, the only effect is that the horse�s blood tests positive to antibodies to the disease, indicating that the horse has been exposed to the parasite. *However, in a very small percentage of horses, the protozoan travels to the brain or spinal cord, causing a variety of neurological signs*. These signs usually are not the same on both sides of the body and can range from toe dragging, incoordination, a drooping eyelid or lip, to complete recumbency and death.There is no vaccine for EPM; however, there are treatments for the disease. The current antibiotic treatment is expensive, and many horses relapse after treatment is stopped. However, more effective treatments are being developed. Horses that exhibit signs of neurological disease can be tested for EPM through analysis of spinal cord fluid. Control measures for EPM include controlling opossums around horse facilities. Store feed in sealed containers, and check it for opossum droppings (similar in appearance to cat feces) before feeding it to horses. Also check outdoor feed and water frequently for contamination. Discourage opossum traffic through paddocks by installing a low electric wire or wire mesh fencing that is buried about 6 inches underground.

I know it was mentioned by the vets but did they test for it as it does seem to fit. Again so sorry.


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## SueNH (Nov 7, 2011)

I'm thinking botulism too.


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## Koolio (Apr 7, 2010)

I am so sorry for your loss and hope you find some answers soon.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

I'm going to 3rd the idea that it could have been botulism. Botulism causes spasms and seizures, and the animal goes down hill very rapidly.

OP, my deepest condolences. It's hard enough to lose one, but to lose two at the same time has to be devastating beyond words.


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## amp23 (Jan 6, 2011)

That is devastating, I'm so sorry for your losses! I don't have a clue what it could be, but the others giving suggestions are pretty knowledgeable. I hope you are able to find out what it was and hopefully have some peace. I'm sorry you had to go through this!


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## SEAmom (Jan 8, 2011)

I have no helpful ideas, but botulism does make sense. 

I'm so sorry for your loss. I hope you are able to get the answers you are looking for.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## herdbound (Aug 30, 2010)

I don't have any suggestions. I would hope that none of your neighbors would do anything to harm your horses like poisoning them ect. I do know you must be in extreme emotional distress and I am really sorry this has happened to you  I hope you find your answers and can find some peace.


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## MangoRoX87 (Oct 19, 2009)

I am ruling out EPM...It wouldn't cause a horse to have a seizure. Also, it wouldn't suddenly come out of no where like it did for you. It's slower moving than that.

My gelding had EPM and was very uncoordinated and unbalanced. You could pick up one of his legs and he would almost fall on you.

So sorry for you loss, that is just terrifying


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## QOS (Dec 8, 2008)

My heart goes out to you. I know the devastation you must be feeling - I would be if I had to put my two boys down. I hope you find out what caused this so you can prevent it from happening again. I certainly hope no one poisoned your horses. 

I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers. Godspeed.


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## mftowner06 (Nov 2, 2009)

My heart goes out to you, I can't imagine loosing 2 horses in one day. I hope that you find out what caused their deaths soon!!! 

My thoughts are with you!


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

How terribly sad. I heard that botulism doesn't really kill things, that it's not the main cause, it's respiratory failure that does them in. When they did an autopsy did that somehow check for that?

I'd rule out EPM because of the reasons Mango explained.

Although, This scares me because I feed the same grain to one of my geldings now. He's been on it for weeks and hasn't had any issues. Did anything at all come back in the grain sample?


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## Kimmylikestojump (Dec 20, 2011)

Oh Botulism kills. Usually relatively quickly.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

I was also wondering if they had tested the grain sample, as a few horses at the barn eat that feed.

I am so terribly sorry, OP. I can't imagine how devastating it would be to lose two horses so quickly. You are in my thoughts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

Kimmylikestojump said:


> Oh Botulism kills. Usually relatively quickly.


I know that it kills. But the reason why it does is because of paralysis. If the paralysis reaches the diaphragm, you get respiratory failure. Can't live if you can't breath.

Therefore it's not necessarily the botulism that is killing whatever, it's the whatever not being able to breathe caused by the paralysis that's caused by the botulism. What a nasty cycle!


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

I unfortunately know exactly how you feel, a few years back I lost two on the same day, they were both fine at 4pm, by 5 one was dead, and we got up the next morning to find another gone. The first mare was older and as she had gone straight down, no sign of a struggle, hay in her mouth, we thought she had suffered a massive heart attack, when the filly was found dead it was obvious something was far wrong.

It turned out to be poisoning from a sample bag of chicken layer pellets that had been in the barn, we still don't know how it got into the paddock, but less than a pound killed two horses.

The diagnoses came very quickly from the necropsy on the filly, that's when we were told that it was either Monensin or Narasin that killed her. At first they thought it was cattle feed, but at the time we were feeding all home grown feeds, so we knew it wasn't that, but then we searched and searched the paddock, before finding this little plastic bag, that had caused so much grief.

In the course of my research into this stuff I found that horses have died from eating feed from mills where they have switched from making cattle feed straight to horse feed, without cleaning down the plant between batches. 

I don't know if the symptoms fit what you have there, in any case I hope you find answers soon


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

That is so sad Golden Horse. :-(


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Golden Horse said:


> I unfortunately know exactly how you feel, a few years back I lost two on the same day, they were both fine at 4pm, by 5 one was dead, and we got up the next morning to find another gone. The first mare was older and as she had gone straight down, no sign of a struggle, hay in her mouth, we thought she had suffered a massive heart attack, when the filly was found dead it was obvious something was far wrong.
> 
> It turned out to be poisoning from a sample bag of chicken layer pellets that had been in the barn, we still don't know how it got into the paddock, but less than a pound killed two horses.
> 
> ...


 
this sounds plausible. Maybe that bag of feed you had just started feeding them was tainted. Was it tested? (sorry , I did not read all posts)


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Such a traggic loss. There is no good way to lose a horse. Even if they're 30+ years and had a good run in life it's hard. As hard as it is at the moment, it will get better.

If it was the feed (and that's a plausable cause) it makes me glad I feed coconut now and not grain. I'd be going crazy if I had to worry about the feed killing my horses.

Again, sorry for the loss and I hope they come back with something on what was the actually cause. While answers don't undo the loss it does help to understand why and that helps dealing with it.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

you feed coconut? That's a first for me.


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## hayburner (Feb 15, 2012)

So sorry for your loss. Thats just terrible. 
If you have a well the water couldn't have floride so that would be ruled out. I'm thinking something they ate like a plant. but mold could be a culprit. That is so horrible is would be devastated .


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

tinyliny said:


> you feed coconut? That's a first for me.


Dried coconut meat is called copra, Tiny.

I believe copra meal feed is only available in New Zealand, but I could be wrong.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

tinyliny said:


> you feed coconut? That's a first for me.


Oh yes. Well, it's the copra actually. What's left after most of the oil has been pressed out of the meat of the coconut (don't use copra made by chemical means). It comes brown, because heat is used in part of the extraction process I think.

There's an Australian company that makes horse feed out of it. Works great if you want to cool down from a hot feed (grains are hot feeds....too much energy). Also good for low sugar (grains aren't good for diabetic horses either). There are several nice things about it.

You can look it up. I don't remember the name of the company, but the feed I use is Cool Stance. They make some high energy suppliments too. Found out about it when someone was needing to feed something that wasn't leaving her horse "hot". I didn't have that problem, but I liked the feed and my horses loved it from day one. Although I've heard that some horses don't take right to it, but eventually love it.


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## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

I am so sorry for your loss. I know how awful it is to loose one horse , but to loose two in one day, I just can't imagine. Best to you.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

CLaPorte432 said:


> I know that it kills. But the reason why it does is because of paralysis. If the paralysis reaches the diaphragm, you get respiratory failure. Can't live if you can't breath.
> 
> Therefore it's not necessarily the botulism that is killing whatever, it's the whatever not being able to breathe caused by the paralysis that's caused by the botulism. What a nasty cycle!


It's the same thing. A gun doesn't kill but the bullet that comes out of it can.


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

OP, I am so sorry. We recently had a mass death as well, though ours had findable reason- sand colic. It killed three of our horses within a week. Its so tough to loose your animals. I can't imagine the devestation that would come from losing two at once, and to something that you can't even identify.

I dont have any ideas, as I'm no expert- but I send my love and condolences to you <3


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## corgi (Nov 3, 2009)

Omigoodness. I can't even imagine what you are going through. I am so sorry. I hope you find an answer.


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## Fargosgirl (Jan 12, 2012)

*Dear god! I am so sorry!*
I lost one with exactly the same same symptoms you described. The thing that most reminded me of my horse was that you said "his back end wouldn't work". My horse was fine at 7am by 8 he had fallen over into the fence and could not stand, the best he could do was sit like a dog. Then he started having seizures, each time he did he slipped further, further away. By 9:30 my vet was recommending euthanasia, but I was in total denial, had the vet make my horse comfortable and waited until afternoon, by which time it was obvious that he wouldn't make it, so the vet came back and put my boy down. 

He said his best guess for a cause was Rhinovirus, the neurological strain, I'm not sure it was the same as the EVH-1 thing that went around last year, but he said that Rhino can cause blood clots in the spinal column that cause the paralysis then when the clots move to the brain it causes the seizures and death. Its highly contagious and I'm very lucky none of my other horses got sick. I couldn't afford to run the tests to prove the cause of death was, but I thought I'd share another possibility.


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## gunslinger (Sep 17, 2011)

Seven horses died recently near Columbia TN

Seven horses found dead on Hampshire farm | Columbia Daily Herald

Awhile back I lost several beagles due to Diamond Dog food.

Seems Diamond had been importing from China and the food was contaminated.

I suggest we start documenting what feed those who had horses die were feeding.

Sure sounds like a bad batch of feed to me.


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

My first thought was Bad feed:-( I sure hope you get some answers soon.
Such a tragic loss,so sorry.....


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Wow, what a horrible loss. I am so sorry, OP, I know that is very difficult to lose 2 beloved animals in such a short time :hug::hug::hug:.

I don't have any other suggestions beyond what has already been mentioned.


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## tbrantley (Mar 6, 2011)

I am so sorry, I wish that I could comfort you in some way. My prayers go out to you to find comfort and answers during this difficult time for you. I am sending you a big hug and letting you know how sorry I am such a tragic loss.

tbrantey


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## caseymyhorserocks (Apr 5, 2010)

Oh my goodness :-( So sorry for your loss.. Have the hay and water tested by someone for anything.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I am so sorry you have experienced such a horrible end to horses you loved. 

If you had just opened a new sack of feed from a different batch from what you had been previously feeding, my 'guess' would be that it was contaminated with an Ionophore intended for cattle only. Rumensin and Bovotec are both deadly for horses (particularly Rumensin) as is Botulism.

Here is a link to more information about several toxins that cause rapid death in horses. 

Rapid and Unexpected Death in Horses Part A - Toxins

I would save all feed they had access to but would not feed it to any other horses until you get back the toxicology reports. 

Grains can also get 'aflatoxins' in them from mold contamination.
here is a link to more information about them.

Poisoning by Aflatoxins in Horses | petMD

I worked for feed mills and manufacturers as a consultant for many years. I have been intimately involved in feed formulation and manufacturing it. Most feed manufacturers carry 'product liability insurance' in case they get in any grains or ingredients that are contaminated. Most big mills now run cattle feed and horse feed through different mixers and pelleting systems. That way, no residual Rumensin or Bovatec can stay in a mixer or other equipment. Grains are usually tested by Mills for Aflatoxins when they are purchased and unloaded. 

One little slip-up is all it takes to contaminate an entire batch of horse feed. Purina and Nutrena have both paid out multimillion settlements for bad feed contaminated with Rumensin. 

If it is tracked down to your feed, their insurance will pay for the horses and all the bills associated with their loss. Be sure you document and save everything in case it is the feed. It is a sure thing that it was something that both got hold of.


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## telly (Aug 6, 2011)

Gunslinger you have a valid point, the feed company's have to take great care when processing these feeds. A lot of company's also process feed containing meat so it's very important to buy from one that doesn't... I used to haul grain so I also know that the trucking companies should take great care in what they are transporting as well. For instance, meat meal being transported is terrible stuff and if I was transporting it and didn't clean my trailers very good then went and picked up a load of barley there would be a good chance of cross contamination... This problem is the same at the places that manufacture the feed, do your research and if your feed comes from a place that makes meat based products I would switch brands... Btw corn or any products are susceptible to cross contamination, that's why hay or a hay/alfalfa mix is the best... If I didn't have to travel so far for quality hay this year I would not supplement, the product I use is alfalfa based and comes from a facility that doesn't handle meat based products and the main ingredient is alfalfa so that even further reduces the chance, JMO.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

good knowledge to have.


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## spirit88 (Jan 12, 2011)

How very very sad to lose two horses in one day hope you find out what happened.My thoughts and prayers go out to you hang in there big hugs to you. I cant even begin to know how i would handle loosing two horses in one day.Spirit88


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## Theissyhunterjumper (Jan 16, 2012)

I am sooo sorry for your loss! I can't even imagine what your going through! 
Your story sounds a lot like what happened to my friends horse a while back. her horse wasn't exposed to anything unusual and she feed him his grain in the morning and by evening he wasn't acting right he couldn't stand and when the vet arrived he didn't know what it was either he thought it could just be a bad case of colic. By late that night he wasn't improving so they decided to put him down. They sent samples away and found out there feed was contaminated by *Cattle Feed!!* So that's what it could be for your case! 
I hope you find out what happened! My prayers are going out for you!!!


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Cattle feeds are usually the culprit. 
The Ionophores are so deadly to horses, that most big mills have horse feeds and cattle feeds coming through two totally different sets of equipment. Small mills do not have that luxury. 

While meat meal and meat & bone meal smell nasty, I have never known of them being dangerous or of them contaminating feeds. The worst thing that they could cause would be a 'off' odor so that horses would not eat it. 

Corn and some other ingredients can have aflatoxin producing molds in them so feed manufacturers, big and small, must test every single load of ingredients that they unload. Aflatoxins can kill any class of livestock or pets if they enter the finished feed. They are very dangerous. 

Federal Feed Laws require ALL Medicated feeds and feeds with chemical additives to be 'red tagged' and specially labeled. This includes feeds with antibiotics (like receiving rations and pig and chick starters), ionophorses, coccidiostats like Corrid (used to prevent coccidiosis in young animals, etc. Feeds, minerals and any supplement with any of these additives must have special tags (usually red) and must have bold 'black box' warnings. Feed Mills (and subsequently dealers) are 100% liable for mislabeled and for mixing mistakes that put any livestock or pets in danger.


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## kwal83 (Aug 13, 2009)

Several years ago I had a mare with basically the same symptoms. A day after her seizures she wasn't getting any better so we decided to put her down. Took a triple dose of euthanasia fluid and suffocating her to finally get her to pass. It was horrible. Sent her to New Bolton for a necropsy and they discovered she had bacterial menengitis. Very rare, and none of my other horses got sick thank God. They have no idea where it could've come from.

My heart goes out to you. I can't imagine losing two of my friends in one day. I really hope you find out what happened so you can prevent it from happening in the future.


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## amp23 (Jan 6, 2011)

OP hasn't come back... Hope she's not too overwhelmed by all these replies! I'd like to know if she had any kind of testing done to find out what happened..


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## BeamerCorgi (Sep 19, 2010)

I would really be looking into botulism. Good idea.


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## jody111 (May 14, 2008)

OMG IM so sorry - what a sad story


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## mfed58 (Sep 15, 2010)

This just plain gut wrenchingly sad! I wish I could say something or do something to help you with this, or help in some way. I can't imagine how incredibley horrible this must be for you, but just know that many people have you in their thoughts and prayers. I will follow this because I want so badly to know what caused such a tragic thing as this. Be strong!!


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## Michelle3 (Sep 16, 2011)

I am overwhelmed by the kind responses and caring thoughts from everyone....although Im crying while reading them, it really helps to know that others care and empathize. I miss my horses every day and there is this huge hole in my heart that will never fully heal. I think Im over the acutal shock adn denial of it all, and now just have to cope with the overwhelming sadness and profound sense of loss. I will enver find another horse that could even come close to them. 

I read through all the posts and made a list to give my vet. I do not know if the labs tested for bacterial menengitis, monensin, narasin, rumensin, bobotc or the neurological form of Rhino. I will find out. 

We saved a water sample and I will ask them to test for Fluoride. The day after all this happened another woman's 28 yr old horse dropped and started to have grand mal sezures. Same symptoms. They dont think its realted, but are looking into it. Im on city water. Her well ran dry and she had just switched to city water, but her other 2 horses are ok....still..?

I know they did test for botulism, fumonisn, pyrethrins(?) and other insecticides/perticides, aldicarbs etc. We are STILL waiting on the ionophore test...not sure what the hold up is. Its been over 10 business days....

The vets both feel the grain is to blame, but at this time, we dont have any answers one way or another. The vets kept grain samples, the new bag of grain and will control the chain of custody if it ends up being the grain. I actually hope its the grain only so that I can get some closure. If it is the hay, I have no idea what to do with 6 months worth of hay stored in my loft, I will be forever paranoid when I feed hay,and I will not have any recourse.My vet also advised me to switch to Purina as they have made some promise to thier customers that they will never make cattle grain in the same facility as horse grain. I have recently learned what an issue cross contamination is. 

The vets ruled out EMP (but not sure they tested for it) because both horses became sick together and had never traveled together. They ruled out Rhino for the same reasons. EPSM is prevelant in drafts but wouldnt have such a rapid onset, in two horses at the same time. I was told botulism would cause paralyisis and not those seizures, although some arch their back and sky gaze. Ultimately its paralysis that is fatal...not grand mal seizures. At least that's what I understood the vet to be saying. Still, they tested and it was negative.

I have not ruled out poison...which makes me sick to think of it...but there have been some complaints about my guard dogs barking...I hate to even consider it....I probably shouldn't say this on a forum...but if I ever found out a person had intentionally harmed my horses I would make sure they got a taste of their own medicine. My horses are my family!  That said...the toxicology test for all common poisons came back negative.

I should have said this in my inital post...I live in southern Colorado. So, we ruled out any spiders or snakes as it's too cold for them to be out, and none could cause those symtoms in a horse. My horses are outside year round (unless the weather is reall bad). They have an overhang adn 80 gallons of water in a metal trough.

According to most folks around here, the symptoms (rapid onset, grand mal seizures) are most in line with Water Hemock or Whorled Milkweed Poisoning (from the hay). They vets dont really agree since a) lab tests showed no toxic plants or plant parts in their digestive system b) four to five other people have been feeding the exact same hay for a long time and not had any issues c) these plants are not palatable and most horses spit them out, even when dried in hay d) these plants are toxic to all animals and my alpacas and goats are fine e) both vets went through the hay bales and didnt find anything f) the lab's microscopic analyisis of the hay came back negative for tocix plants and molds. Still, I gave four sample hay bags to the NRCS Range Land Scientist and he is taking it to the national conference this week to have everyone look through it.

I can try to attach the toxiccology report if anyone is interested. I will let everyone know when the ionophore test results are in as well.

Thank you again to everyone for being so understanding and kind. I wouldnt wish this agony on any one. 
What a great community!


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## sierrams1123 (Jul 8, 2011)

We are all here for you!
Please keep us posted, as it may save others.

My heart goes out to you, I can not even imagine what you are going through.
Prayers and wishes for a speedy discovery.....I know with this it will help ease some of your pain. Just remember, no matter what, it was NOT YOUR FAULT. From what it sounds like to me this was something out of your control.


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## QOS (Dec 8, 2008)

Michelle,
That is an exhaustive list you have - hopefully you will get the answers you are looking for and some closure. 

I have learned quiet a bit by reading this. I had no idea that feed for cattle could poison horses. What a scary thought. 

I know you are missing your horses and I hope one day you can get another horse - not that one can take the place of another - but hopefully, it will find its own place in your heart. 

Keeping you in my thoughts and prayers. Hugs.


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## MangoRoX87 (Oct 19, 2009)

I never realized how bad cattle feed is for horses.

The guy I won my colt from feeds cattle feed strictly to his horses, they look fantastic to me, but wow. Never would have thought that could happen


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Michelle3 said:


> I miss my horses every day and there is this huge hole in my heart that will never fully heal.


This is very true, but the pain_ will_ get better. I promise.



Michelle3 said:


> I will never find another horse that could even come close to them.


Never say never. You're in emotional trauma right now so what you're saying is 1,000% true for you at this moment, but don't ever give up the possibility of finding another horse or horses who will tug at your heart. 

Your horses were unique and you'll never forget them, but I'm betting when you're ready there will be another out there who will find their way into your life.

I hope you find out what caused their deaths, and can finally get some closure. Until you do, the healing won't be able to start.

I too am hoping it's the grain, as that can be remedied. Water and hay are harder to fix.


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## spirit88 (Jan 12, 2011)

michelle3 I know right now you dont think youll ever be able to find a horse or horses like the ones you lost. But i know from experience it can happen i lost my first horse who i so dearly loved. It took me over a year before i could even think about another horse but when i was ready i found a horse. The horse i found was very much like the one i lost and that hole in my heart was partly filled again. So hang in there time does heal a broken heart. HUGS TO YOU i hope it was the feed too. Keep us updated.


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## MangoRoX87 (Oct 19, 2009)

Give yourself proper time to heal, it's hard...

When Mango passed away, I was completely blind sided. I still had Sassy and Dream, but Mango was my main man. Within three days, we had another gelding. That was NOT proper healing time for me, but Rebel was in desperate need of love and a good home. Within two months after that, I had Rosie so I could continue riding drill. Eight months after that, I won Dusty. I wouldn't so much say a horse could ever fill that hole, but Rebel got into my heart quickly. There will always be a hole from Mango, but Rebel filled a different empty space that made the hole a little less noticeable and less painful. When Rebel was sadly sold, a new hole was formed, but it healed quickly. Rebel was my soft spot...he helped me heal.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Michelle3 said:


> The vets both feel the grain is to blame, but at this time, we dont have any answers one way or another. The vets kept grain samples, the new bag of grain and will control the chain of custody if it ends up being the grain. I actually hope its the grain only so that I can get some closure.


Unfortunately if it was the grain, yours would not be the only two horses impacted. I assume since all of the testing has been done and results back - it's been over 10 days. The feed tag will tell you where and when it was produced - Nutrena: Knowledge Center - Horse - FAQs

Nutrena does not manufacture cattle and equine grain in the same facility.

We had two horses become very ill and end up at the university for a long time. We went through all of the same testing, etc. Since there was no definite *X is the cause* - the vets can not and would not speculate out loud. Folks are much to sue happy.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

My guess would be botulism or toxin in feed... 

I'm so very sorry about your loss, Michelle! It's very hard and very sad. Hugs!


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## Skipsfirstspike (Mar 22, 2010)

So sorry for your loss! I can hardly imagine. (((hugs)))


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## LuckyRVT (Nov 4, 2011)

First I am very very sorry for ur loss. I know it was terrible seeing your babies seizure (been there) ny even with a horse of my own and it was to date the worst thing I have ever seen. I would def. say that there death had to be caused by some type of neuro toxin. Do u have neighbors that could have fed them something? (thrown it over the fence)? Call the grain company and report it as a possible reaction/adverse effect! Even if ur nt for sure that was the cause, they will put it on file. So if someone else has a problem and calls they will know and can investigate it. Give them the item number or anything descriptive of the grain so of it is a problem with it they can track the lots which may save other animals. And thrown that grain out heck even the hay, I know u might have already dont that but I just wanted to mention just incase. I know when crazy terrible stuff happens sometimes we loose out heads and forget things (I do too) I will keep u in my thoughts and prayers. U may never know the reason why this happened but remember the good memories and at least that u where there to ease there suffering, w/o u it could have went on longer. And remember God has a reason for everything and will never give u more than u can handle. (even tho it seems like to much or unreasonable.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HorseLovinLady (Jul 18, 2011)

I'm very sorry for your loss. :-(


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## tiegan (Feb 22, 2012)

Hi there, am new to this forum and live in Ireland. Happened to me a few years ago with a yearling at grass. Vets in the end decided that it was due to a neurotoxin from a type of fungus. All other yearlings in the same field were fine. Hope you find answers, and so sorry for your losses.


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## furbabymum (Dec 28, 2011)

This is going to seem weird but......is there oil drilling in your area? I ask because we have oil and gas action happening around us right now. They've already found some poisoned wells. I'm thinking possible water contaminent. Test the water.


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## Michelle3 (Sep 16, 2011)

Actually, yes, we do have drilling in the area, but we are on city water. But that said, my neighbors dog died suddenly from massive grand mal seizures yesterday, and as I menitioned, another friends horse also died last week from gran mal seizures. The only thing that I can think of tha they all have in common is the water...city water. However, my friends other horses are fine, other people on the ranch have horses that are fine, all my alpacas, goats and dogs are fine... Someone mentioned checking for fluoride and my vet is looking into it. So strange. STILL waiting on the ionophores test. Ugh.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

I'm so sorry that you had to go through such a horrible experience.

Colorado, huh? I lived there for 11 years. Do you feed an alfalfa mix? We had to be vigilant about checking our alfalfa mix for blister beetles in the hay. They are extremely toxic and just a bit of one can be lethal.

Also, there was a barn that put oil on their barn aisle to keep the dust down. It turned out that the oil the supplier used was waste oil that was contaminated with dioxin. It killed all of her horses, a goat and dog. Symptoms were a bit different, though. If you spread and de-dusting agents.....

I also think the contaminated feed is your best bet. Be ready to make a clain against the feed mill or company.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

furbabymum said:


> This is going to seem weird but......is there oil drilling in your area? I ask because we have oil and gas action happening around us right now. They've already found some poisoned wells. I'm thinking possible water contaminent. Test the water.


Do you mean they are "fracking" in your area?


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## furbabymum (Dec 28, 2011)

Yup. 


tinyliny said:


> Do you mean they are "fracking" in your area?


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## Michelle3 (Sep 16, 2011)

There is alot of natural gas exploration (fracking) and drilling in this part of the state, although not on the ranch we live on. Our water is from the city, but the vets took a water sample from their water trough to test, in the event that all the most likely tests (ie. grain and hay) were negative. I dont think they have tested it yet. Any suggestions on what they could test for? 

I got the rest of the ionophores tests in this morning...all negative!  The report showed that the lab tested for monensin, lasalocid, naracin and salinomycin. I noticed that they did not test fo Bovoc or rumensin, as someone had suggested earlier, so I emailed my vet to ask why. I also called my former vet at Tufts University Large Animal Hospital and sent copies of all the paperwork to them to see if they had any additional suggestions. This is so frustrating.....!!!!! 

The rest of my animals (alpacas, 2 goats, 2 dogs) are still doing fine. I am not feeding out the grain. I have only kept it in case they need more to test and will carefully dispose of it when this is all over. I am really nervous feeding the hay, even though the vets dont think they hay is the culprit. Hay has been so hard to come by this year-its not like I can replace it easily-if at all. My farrier just fed out the last bale of this hay to his horses and they are still all fine. Actually, that's not true, on of my farrier's horses coliced today...doubt its related, but at this point, who knows....(the horse is ok now) The other three folks feeding the hay are nervous since we dont have answers, but are not having any issues. The vets did check for blister beetle but didnt find any, and although they are fatal, they didnt think the symtoms were an exact fit. Also, the hay is predominantly grass.


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## Prinella (Jul 12, 2011)

Hope results come through soon. So sorry for your loss!


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

Oh how incredibly sad. My heart goes out to you and hope that the culprit is found.


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## dop (Nov 7, 2009)

After reading the entire thread and thinking about the exhaustive testing that's been done already on hay, grain, water, etc., and how you've come up empty handed, the only *common* area that pops out to me that hasn't been considered (at least you didn't mention anything about it) is the fairgrounds.

Michelle, You said, "They have not gotten loose and really haven’t been trailered anywhere except one to the *fairgrounds* one weekend, and the other one the next weekend so I could school htem in the nice footing ring."

It's a long shot of course, but look into if your neighbor's dog and your other friend's horse who both died last week from massive grand mal seizures had been to the fairgrounds. If so, you've found a common area for more investigation and testing.

Good luck. My heart goes out to you,too.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

Good Heaven's, I am so sorry for your loss. I am sure it is a very difficult time, and my prayers go out to you.

I can't imagine the emotional strain of wanting to know w surety what caused this tragety. I have nothing usefull to add to the possibilities already considered, but I wish I did for your sake... except for possibly one - to include the mineral block, if one were present, in the investigation.


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## herdbound (Aug 30, 2010)

Michelle3 I NEVER rule out maliciousness by people. Here where I live people's horses have had their throats slit in the middle of the night. People have purposely thrown cherry tree branches in pastures, and I listened to a story from the President of the horse club I am in last year that made me get goosebumps. She had a stallion at her parents house and her sons had found a bucket in the pasture that contained marijuana...they called the cops and the police where investigating the situation. A few days later they found the stallion downed in the pasture still alive with one of his legs hacksawed off above the knee. People are sick sometimes...and I know if someone REALLY wanted to get at me...they would go after my horses. I have had them take my gates off in the middle of the night and set them to the side...they went in our other pasture and ran our Arabian over a hill on a 4 wheeler...she impaled her rear end on a log and had to be put down  Poisoning isn't beyond a malicious evil persons scope of getting back at you.


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## palominolover (Apr 28, 2010)

I'm so sorry for your loss. I hope you find whatever caused it soon. Good luck. I hope someone did not poison your horses, but it amazes me how sick people can be sometimes. I'm hoping for no more deaths in your area.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

herdbound said:


> Michelle3 I NEVER rule out maliciousness by people. Here where I live people's horses have had their throats slit in the middle of the night. People have purposely thrown cherry tree branches in pastures, and I listened to a story from the President of the horse club I am in last year that made me get goosebumps. She had a stallion at her parents house and her sons had found a bucket in the pasture that contained marijuana...they called the cops and the police where investigating the situation. A few days later they found the stallion downed in the pasture still alive with one of his legs hacksawed off above the knee. People are sick sometimes...and I know if someone REALLY wanted to get at me...they would go after my horses. I have had them take my gates off in the middle of the night and set them to the side...they went in our other pasture and ran our Arabian over a hill on a 4 wheeler...she impaled her rear end on a log and had to be put down  Poisoning isn't beyond a malicious evil persons scope of getting back at you.



Oh wow! I am so fortunate to say that I have never heard of anyone maliciously hurting a horse around here. That is so horrible! The worst I have heard about is people starving their horses (not exactly on purpose, but because they ran out of money) and somebody dumped a lame horse out on the forest to run with the "wild" horses. That horse got rescued and found a good home. But I have never heard of anyone trying to hurt someone else's horses like that. That's beyond horrible. I wouldn't be able to cope with that! I would have to sleep with the horses or something!


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## herdbound (Aug 30, 2010)

Unfortunately if you want to hit someone where it hurts destroying livestock is pretty effective. Yeah I read that after I posted it and it does seem there are a higher than normal level of psychos where I live...then again it is WV


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## karebear444 (Feb 3, 2012)

My heart breaks for you. I'm very sorry for what you have gone through. I'm no expert, but it sounds like i could be botulism.


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## spirit88 (Jan 12, 2011)

Herdbound WOW that is one sick person to hack saw off a horses leg gives me goosebumps just thinking about it. Where i live we dont have to worrie about that so far. But the wolfs are a problem around here we have a pack of ten wolfs that patrol are fence line. My horses are up near the barn my hubby has his riffle ready they come in our fence and every one will be shot. I sure hope michelle3 finds out what happened to her horses hope to have a update soon with what caused the death of her beloved horses.


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## Michelle3 (Sep 16, 2011)

Just an update. All the lab tests are in now, and all are negative for anything. Both vets, and I quote, "are most suspicious of the grain". Based on this, I decided to get second opinion on the grain. The other reason is that the first lab that did the tests had some computer issues and the results took a weeks to come in. I called a huge company called Eurofins and told them the history of what had happened to my horses. They asked if the first lab had tested to T2, Coccidiostats etc...several things that were not in the report from the first lab. So, I sent them a copy of the test results so they could see if there were any additional tests that they could run. When I didnt hear back from them, I emailed them to make sure they got the report I had sent. I received a bizarre email from a supervisor there that stated due to potential legal issues and conflicts of interest, they could not look at my grain. So, I called another lab and when I mentioned it was Nutrena, I got the same response. I called a third lab...same thing. Due to legal issues and/or conflicts of interest, they wont test my grain. I sent these along to my vet, who agrees that the response are strange. I going to go to the federal USDA office tomorrow and see if they will test the grain for me. Its all so frustrating. I had hear rumors of recent Nutrena recalls, but have not been able to confirm them. Also, I have emailed Nutrena (cant find a phone number for them) and explained what has happened and they are not responding to any of my messages either.


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

Very interesting. And it's not fair that you can't get a response about the grain that could have possibly killed your horses. You have a right to know! 

The public also has a right to know. I feed Nutrena Life Design Senior. (Which I believe is what you fed) and if there is something wrong with it, that could cause my horse harm, I have a right to know as well. You would think the company would want to clear their name in this case. :-(

Please keep us informed of what you can find out.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

Michelle3 said:


> Just an update. All the lab tests are in now, and all are negative for anything. Both vets, and I quote, "are most suspicious of the grain". Based on this, I decided to get second opinion on the grain. The other reason is that the first lab that did the tests had some computer issues and the results took a weeks to come in. I called a huge company called Eurofins and told them the history of what had happened to my horses. They asked if the first lab had tested to T2, Coccidiostats etc...several things that were not in the report from the first lab. So, I sent them a copy of the test results so they could see if there were any additional tests that they could run. When I didnt hear back from them, I emailed them to make sure they got the report I had sent. I received a bizarre email from a supervisor there that stated due to potential legal issues and conflicts of interest, they could not look at my grain. So, I called another lab and when I mentioned it was Nutrena, I got the same response. I called a third lab...same thing. Due to legal issues and/or conflicts of interest, they wont test my grain. I sent these along to my vet, who agrees that the response are strange. I going to go to the federal USDA office tomorrow and see if they will test the grain for me. Its all so frustrating. I had hear rumors of recent Nutrena recalls, but have not been able to confirm them. Also, I have emailed Nutrena (cant find a phone number for them) and explained what has happened and they are not responding to any of my messages either.


Wow, that is really awful. If you have the original bag the Nutrena came in - don't lose it. The raw materials that went into making the feed can be traced by the bag (lot number). The feed itself is extremely important, of course. 
The feed is now in quesion, Nutrena should produce the certificate of analysis for each and every raw material that went into its production. If they have had a recall, the compound they are worried about should be known, that makes it easier to have analyzed - since you would know what you are looking for. I would ask Nutrena, in writing, for the certificate of analysis for all the raw materials, origin, and if there are any known problems with the lot, or any other lots produced using the same raw materials. 
I would also consider calling UC Davis, or the like. Having so many labs w a conflict of interest is_ really_ odd. A lab shouldn't need a huge sample, so you can "feel safe" by not depleting your retainer with additional testing. It is also important to know, if you get the certificate of analysis, what test procedures were utilized to determine the presence of x, or y - and by whom (i.e., nutrena, 3rd party, or the supplier). Sometimes quick test are run, the spec for "x" compound is "met", but other compounds in the same class will "fool" the instrumentation and give the same result.
If it were me, I would be thinking "youtube" w just the facts. Nutrena's non-responsiveness is just not satisfactory at all, to say the least!!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

That sounds really suspicious. Feels like money might be changing hands under the table.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Michelle3 said:


> Also, I have emailed Nutrena (cant find a phone number for them)


Google tells me it is 334-834-7670. 
I just called and a voicemail says it is Cargill animal nutrition, which appears to be their parent company.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

That is absolutely terrible. I am so sorry for your loss. I'm afraid I can't contribute to the discussion, but I hope that your mind is put to rest sometime soon. I'm also sorry that I didn't read the thread.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Just read this last page. Extremely suspicious....I will not be feeding my horses anymore Nutrena until I hear more on this.


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## Annnie31 (May 26, 2011)

Maybe if you dont tell the labs whose feed it is and just ask for an analysis you could at least get some results back with answers.


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## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

I am so sorry to hear of your loss. I cant imagine if anything happened to Hunter. I hope that you get the answers you are looking for. If people don't start responding I would start making some noise especially since labs won't test. Hugs to you.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Ditto!!
The USDA is turning into a den of thieves, and DEFINITELY money is being moved under the table. ALL garden forums I'm on talk about "fishy" seeds and practices and companies that have the USDA in their pockets.
I am SO sorry for your loss. We had 3 elderly horses either die or be put down--2008, 2009 and 2009. The last one we shot and then...we fell apart. Prayers for you and your family.


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## Ladytrails (Jul 28, 2010)

Very fishy indeed. I wonder if Nutrena/Cargill have used these labs to test their feed, just to 'tie them up' so there is a conflict of interest and the labs can't do the other testing. OP, we are carefully following your postings, so thank you in advance for educating us on how this progresses. I'm a Nutrena customer and am VERY interested in how this comes out.


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## Jumperforjoy (Mar 8, 2012)

I am so sorry for your loss, I can't imagine losing one horse that way.. Two would be unbearable :-(, I don't have much to add, but that sounds extremely fishy regarding all the labs/grain *shakes head* it's a sad day when you can't even get a answer because some big name company is controlling everyone. 

I really hope you can find a good lab to do full testing (possibly sending to a different state? Maybe even a lab up here in Canada?) best of luck


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Op - once again I am sorry you expereinced what you did. However, if it truly was the grain, there would of been more than just your horses that were impacted. In this day and age nothing happens that isn't immediately talked about on the internet, FB, twitter, etc.

Folks - before you go believing anything you read on an internet chat room - TALK to your local reps and get the facts.

Nutrena did NOT have a recall. The most recent incident was a batch of Empower had issues at the extrusion plant. Cargill did a voluntary pull until the extrusion unit was repaired. Nothing was out of USDA guidelines but Cargill chose to stop the sale of the product for two weeks.

Again - please talk to a Cargill/Nutrena rep and get your facts straight from a reliable source.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

mls said:


> Op - once again I am sorry you expereinced what you did. However, if it truly was the grain, there would of been more than just your horses that were impacted. In this day and age nothing happens that isn't immediately talked about on the internet, FB, twitter, etc.
> 
> Folks - before you go believing anything you read on an internet chat room - TALK to your local reps and get the facts.
> 
> ...


The fact they have not responded to her email is telling, as is the fact she is unable to locate a phone number for them. It is currently unknown if other horses were affected - and clearly Nutrena isn't interested if their feed adversley impacted anything - don't collect data, then you have no data??? Customer service is 90% in my book - I will never purchase their products again unless and until she says they contacted her and were HELPFUL and apologized profusely for their unacceptable nonresponsiveness. Try this with purina, ya think they have locked up every 3rd party analytical lab in any area of the country? No, b/c they have THEIR OWN.


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## Ladytrails (Jul 28, 2010)

Ladytrails said:


> Very fishy indeed. I wonder if Nutrena/Cargill have used these labs to test their feed, just to 'tie them up' so there is a conflict of interest and the labs can't do the other testing. OP, we are carefully following your postings, so thank you in advance for educating us on how this progresses. I'm a Nutrena customer and am VERY interested in how this comes out.


Just happened to be "vet day" here at our farm this afternoon and I mentioned this to my vet. He hadn't heard anything among the vet circles of chatter, nor had he heard anything about feed contamination. Very interested to learn more, if the cause is ever found.


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## tlkng1 (Dec 14, 2011)

Admittedly I didn't go through all the responses but if your call to Cargill doesn't gain anything and you still hit a brick wall, try the local media. You have to admit you don't have confirmation but can say that you are unable to get any cooperation from the feed company or local labs. 

Best wishes and gentle thoughts...two at once is just more than heartbreaking and even moreso due to the possible circumstances.


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## Cacowgirl (Feb 19, 2011)

So sorry for your double loss-so devastating. Prayers to you & hope you find some peace of mind. I hope you keep pursuing the source of possibe contamination, & can find out what happened. It hurts so bad to lose our beloved horses, I hope you can let another into your heart-they are such wonderful animals.


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## Susan Crumrine (Oct 5, 2009)

All I can say is I am terribly sorry for your tragic loss.
I hope you get some answers soon.


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## WildAcreFarms (Apr 6, 2011)

OP I'm SO SO-sorry for your loss. that's a crying shame and I'm sorry you had to go through that. what kind of hay were you feeding the horses?

one farm down the road from us has 5 horses die, and another lost all their horses (like over 10) last year from Blister beetle poisoning in the alfalfa hay they baled. I'm told it only takes 5 blister beetles to kill a 1000 lb horse. a lot of the commercial feeds (pellets) contain alfalfa so even if it was not the hay I'd be wondering about the grain. i was told the horses had progressively worse seizures. I'd highly suspect the feed because of the rapid onset...
please keep us posted


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

*If anyone here wants to start researching chemical companies and their ills,* HERE is a recent post on one of the gardening forums I belong to, called, "The Easy Garden"
TheEasyGarden - Gardening Forum / New to starting plants from seed, could use some pointers
Just as easy to join as this forum, and it's linked to 3 other forums, one for chicken owners, one for livestock owners and one devoted to self-sufficiency. "Miracle Gro" is one product to avoid, just so you know.
Just some FYI.
_Btw, I am KA, "ducks4you" there._ =D


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## Bridgertrot (Dec 2, 2011)

I don't think the issue here is that the OP is not a reliable source...it's the fact that Nutrena is blowing her off. Which is very suspicious. All they need to do is test it and if it's fine they can go on their way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ichliebepferde (Sep 8, 2011)

keeping YOU in my prayers.


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## busysmurf (Feb 16, 2012)

First, I'm sorry about your loss. Just know that we are all there for you.

Second, my job requires me to do a lot of work with labs and samples (all environmental & agricultural), by I do have experience with testing for some biological compounds. So even though it's not exactly the same as this situation, there are a few things I've learned along the way.

1. There are several things about samples that most people don't know, and labs don't think to mention. MANY compounds both organic and in-organic have a "shelf life". That means that analysis must be run by a certain time or the results can be comprimised. Another is temperature, most often samples must be kept either very cold or frozen. Some compounds require a preservative such as hydrochloric acid or methanol. GROUNDWATER: I have yet to find/see a water analysis where the sample can be run if the water is warm.

2. From what I can tell, you/the vets used private labs. All labs need to have licenses and certifications. Ask for copies from the labs you used. I would suggest contacting Veterinary colleges to see if thier labs will run samples (2 that I can think of that are fairly highly regarded are UC-Davis and UW-Madison). Those types of labs are less likely to potentially be under the influance of outside contributers, as any funds recieved are under public scrutiny.

3. As someone suggested before, DON'T mention where the sample came from. Keep the description basic (i.e. bag #2, tank #1). A

4. Another thing. Have them run a duplicate. Take 2 samples of the same thing, but label them different. This is a good way to make sure the lab isn't messing with results.

Just thought I'd try to help.:hug:Again, I'm so sorry you have to go thru this


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## Ladytrails (Jul 28, 2010)

Busysmurf, this is really helpful information to know. I really like the idea of duplicate, differently-labeled samples. Very slick trick.


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## busysmurf (Feb 16, 2012)

Thanks. The duplicates are actually required by most state agencies that I deal w/. There are more things to be aware of, or things to ask a lab, but the above list should get anyone started. If anyone else feel free to PM me & I'll help you out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## New_image (Oct 27, 2007)

Very helpful information busysmurf, OP you are in our thoughts and prayers. What a heartbreaking, confusing and hard thing to experience. I hope that you are able to get some piece of mind by at the very least getting to the bottom of it. I find it very suspicious that the neighbors dog and a another horse had similar deaths recently?


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## CBailey04 (Dec 19, 2011)

OP: This whole post is just so emotional. I am sorry for your loss and all the frustration your going through now. Although i know its probably impossible try and do something to relax even just for a few hours, or else you'll end up making yourself sick :wink:

Look at the bag of feed from your neighbor and see if they were from the same lot.....if so, does the dog that died from the same symptoms ever visit yours or your neighbors house? because if i ever spill a little feed on the ground my lab is quick to lick it right up.

It may not be the grain, could be something totally different but for them to not even be concerned or respond back at all is just completely sickening. What if if is that batch, are they not concerned about the well being of the other horses that could be affected. Not at all it seems, I won't be buying Nutrena products just because of their non existent customer service :twisted:

Also like someone mentioned before see if the other horse and dog visited there as well......the fact that three horses and a dog all died from grand mal seizures is not just coincidence i wouldn't think. Did they do autopsies to find out the cause of death in those two animals?

Its got to be something to do with the water, grain, or the fairgrounds (if the dog and other horse visited there as well, if not i would rule it out)

Good luck to you and I will try and think of any other possibilities....sorry again for your loss


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

This is horrifying ... I'm so sorry for your loss.


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## WildAcreFarms (Apr 6, 2011)

Annnie31 said:


> Maybe if you don't tell the labs whose feed it is and just ask for an analysis you could at least get some results back with answers.


My thoughts exactly send the test sample in under your hubby or moms name don't say anything about animals dying.....
thats what i would do.

good luck and keep up posted.


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## Ladytrails (Jul 28, 2010)

Just saw this on one of my e-mail newsletters. Interesting information about contaminated horse feed, recent recall of horse feed (doesn't say where). 

The Horse | Ionophore Intoxication in Horses


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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

Ladytrails said:


> Just saw this on one of my e-mail newsletters. Interesting information about contaminated horse feed, recent recall of horse feed (doesn't say where).
> 
> The Horse | Ionophore Intoxication in Horses


 

Follow the link in the article. It says there is a recall for 

<LI sizset="36" sizcache="2">March 07, 2012 Cargill Animal Nutrition Conducts Regional Recall of Nutrena NatureWise Goat Pellets 1Error in labeling (does not include "Decoquinate" on label) <LI sizset="37" sizcache="2">March 03, 2012 Western Feed, LLC Conducts Voluntary Recall Of Feed Distributed In Nebraska And Wyoming 2May contain monensin sodium (Rumensin) <LI sizset="38" sizcache="2">December 13, 2011 Corrected Lot Numbers for Advanced Animal Nutrition Dog Power Dog Food Recall 3
Updated February 2, 2012


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## Annnie31 (May 26, 2011)

Yup it sure does and it says horses may have died after consuming the 14% Kountry Buffet from 2 seperate lot numbers (Rumensin poisoning) Terrible....


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## Annnie31 (May 26, 2011)

^^^^ Sorry the product contained
Monensin Sodium (Rumensin)...having trouble with my typing fingers today LOL


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## Michelle3 (Sep 16, 2011)

1. It’s been about five months now and things are getting a little better...I still cry whenever anyone asks about them, but I am able to remember the fun times with them and try to focus in that. 

Since my last post, Nutrena finally sent a rep out to collect samples. She took hay, grain, supplements etc. and was at my barn for well over an hour, looking though everything and couldn’t fine as much as a nail sticking out. She was very kind and understanding and made the suggestion that I have the vets start looking for things that were "out of the norm". 
My vets did this, and the lab found higher than normal levels of Banamine in the blood, but levels that would have caused those symptoms. (The vets had given both horses Banamine). One thought was that since my first horse was impossible to put down via chemical means (they resorted to shooting him after two hours of failed attempts), that there was a circulatory issue and anything injected was not properly being distributed throughout the body. So, when then vet injected the Banamine then quickly drew blood samples the level in those samples was elevated. I talked to the manufacture of Banamine and they confirmed that the elevated level of Banamine would not have presented any obvious symptoms. Still, it is quite odd. 

Another vet in town said he almost guaranteed, based on my description of the events, that it was Botulism or Whorled Milkweed poisoning. Although initially milkweed was on the top of the list (right after the grain) my vets had ruled out the milkweed because none was detected in all the bales that they examined, or by the lab. Of course, the entire bale that the horses consumed was not available for testing and by the time they did the autops,y 12 hours had passed since the hay was eaten, so it probably was not still in their system. My vets were almost adamant that it was not botulism, but they still sent the very last drops of blood and some of the suspicious grain to Penn State for Botulism testing and it came back negative. 

So, still no answers… L


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Michelle3 said:


> some of the suspicious grain to Penn State for Botulism testing and it came back negative.
> 
> So, still no answers… L


So - it wasn't the fault of Nutrena as many have blamed in this thread?


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

What about blister beetles? Would they have been able to tell that (I'm grasping at straws).


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## DimSum (Mar 28, 2012)

I just saw this thread for the first time, and wanted to tell the OP how very sorry I am for her looses.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

I just saw this thread for the first time as well. I am so sorry for your loss Michelle and especially for not having any answers. We humans always want a reason. 

Rumensin is toxic to horses, but did the recall indicate horse feed as well as the other feeds? Or, is there any chance that the goats were given that Nutrena product, some spilled and the horses got at it? Apparently Rumensin affects the heart, which would affect circulation.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

Michelle3 said:


> So, still no answers… L


I am very sorry to hear that. I was hoping you could get some closure, it is an extremely difficult time I am sure. I would like to say that your posts were very level headed considering such a devastating loss. Nutrena should have been far more responsive, and I am sure it must bother you that some people do not understand that to perform a full battery quant/qualitative analysis of any material can be cost prohibative - and usually is. Simply b/c one thing was ruled out from a given source does not mean it was not something else from that same source. You have shown great courage and grace in this thread - far more composure than I believe I could muster under such difficult circumstances. I will pray that somehow, some way, you are given the answers you deserve.


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## Breella (May 26, 2012)

First, I'm very sorry for your loss.

Have the vets considered antifreeze poisoning? The symptoms you describe sound a lot like antifreeze poisonings I've seen in cats and dogs.


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## hberrie (Apr 28, 2012)

The first thing that came to my mind when I read this post was Hemlock poisoning. Are you sure your horses couldn't get to ANY foliage. Hemlock grows everywhere and if there was no other foliage in the area they may have resorted to eating that. I am so so sorry for your loss but I am like you and I would demand a reason for something so unreasonable. This was just my first gut instinct and is probably wrong, I just know it probably wouldn't show up in bloodwork and is a possibility. Maybe it was even in the hay as many others suggested milkweed. However I have never known milkweed to be poisonous(at least to humans). I eat it regularly in fact.


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

I am truly so sorry for your loss. I hope you find peace, whether its in an answer or not.


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## Michelle3 (Sep 16, 2011)

After all this time I might finally have an answer... 
Since this happened Im have become completely paranoid about my hay (grain, fly spray..everything). I know my alpacas and goats are able to eat more things than horses, but now I hand pick through all my hay before feeding it. The other day I noticed a plant that looked harmless, but different. Since there was a lot of it, I didnt feed the hay, and instead had my vet look at it. He identified it as Narrow Leaved Whorled Milkweed. Deadly poisonous. Dried and blended right into my "horse-safe" hay. So, I still dont know for certain that it was in the bale that the horses ate that night (since the entire bale was consumed), but finding so much in this bale of hay that came from the same field means that the milkweed is likely the cause. My vet said that it had been one of the first things he though of, (along with Monensin and moldy corn poisoning) because the symptoms were a perfect fit, but they didnt find any in the bales that they opened and checked at the time. I have recently learned that this Narrow Leaved Whorled Milkweed grows all over the place around here....usually near the edges of the fields in drainage areas. Most horses avoid eating it because it is not very palatable, but since it was dried it might have tasted better. It is also more palatable than the broad leaf species, and has a different type of toxin. I always hear people talk about Poison Hemlock, Locoweed, Red Maples, Nighshade, Yew etc but not this one.... I put a photo in below. Often in the hay it just looks like some small green plant.
.








I miss my horses every single day and still have nighmares about them dying. I know I will never get over it. I just hope that folks that read this can become aware of this plant and how deadly it is....


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## Roperchick (Feb 1, 2010)

Im glad you finally found your answers! im so sorry for your loss


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## DimSum (Mar 28, 2012)

I am hoping this gives you some closure, keep on being strong.


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

So glad you have an answer. I hope this eventually gives you peace of mind. I am so sorry for your loss. Will you be getting any other horses in the future?


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## Casey02 (Sep 20, 2011)

I read through the whole article I can not believe how know one would test the grain. I am so sorry for your loss and know how it feels to lose a best friend. I hope this will give you some closure and that you will beable to sleep at night. Im glad to hear the vets were on your side and tried everything to help. Im still wondering about everyone elses hay including your self what is going to happen to it


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

Wow, very scarey. I'm glad you found an answer, but now how do people buy hay in your area? And it's making me wonder if there is anything in my hay...

However, I must say that this is part of the reason that I give more hay than my horses want. I figure this way they will pick through what they want and leave behind the nasties. I have noticed on several occassions particular bales that have a lot of waste and I always figured there was something bad in it.


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## eclipseranch (May 31, 2012)

Michelle3 said:


> After all this time I might finally have an answer...
> Since this happened Im have become completely paranoid about my hay (grain, fly spray..everything). I know my alpacas and goats are able to eat more things than horses, but now I hand pick through all my hay before feeding it. The other day I noticed a plant that looked harmless, but different. Since there was a lot of it, I didnt feed the hay, and instead had my vet look at it. He identified it as Narrow Leaved Whorled Milkweed. Deadly poisonous. Dried and blended right into my "horse-safe" hay. So, I still dont know for certain that it was in the bale that the horses ate that night (since the entire bale was consumed), but finding so much in this bale of hay that came from the same field means that the milkweed is likely the cause. My vet said that it had been one of the first things he though of, (along with Monensin and moldy corn poisoning) because the symptoms were a perfect fit, but they didnt find any in the bales that they opened and checked at the time. I have recently learned that this Narrow Leaved Whorled Milkweed grows all over the place around here....usually near the edges of the fields in drainage areas. Most horses avoid eating it because it is not very palatable, but since it was dried it might have tasted better. It is also more palatable than the broad leaf species, and has a different type of toxin. I always hear people talk about Poison Hemlock, Locoweed, Red Maples, Nighshade, Yew etc but not this one.... I put a photo in below. Often in the hay it just looks like some small green plant.
> .
> 
> ...


I just read through this thread. I wish I was close enough to give you a hug...I can only try to understand the hurt that you have gone through. I do appreciate you sharing your findings as I was completely not educated in many points brought out in this thread & never heard of this plant before. I truly hope you do not blame yourself for any thing that happened...none of it was your fault! blessings to you!


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

I am very sorry for this painful and tragic loss. I am glad you have found some closure. 

I am in awe of your amazing strength and tenacious efforts trying to find the cause while enduring such a tremendous loss and now - trying to help others by educating them. My hat is off to you, I can tell you that!


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## Prinella (Jul 12, 2011)

Thankyou so much for sharing that information.

I can't imagine how you're feeling still -hugs-
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

i am so sorry for your loss! i wish i could give you a big hug, but i am glad you found closure finally after all this time. this thread was very informative for me as i hadn't heard of a few of these different things. it will make me much more aware in the future.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Nothing makes the loss any easier, time does make it less painful. Having answers is also helpful, glad you found an answer, and hopefully your tragic loss will alert others.

I'm off to see if we have that weed up here.


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## Cristy Reehl (Jul 12, 2012)

*crying with you*

love and prayers to you and your broken heart. So very sorry for the tragic loss of your beloved horses. Try posting something local for anyone else in your area with the same thing. Call all the vets and see what you find. Breath deep my dear. We care.


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## Cristy Reehl (Jul 12, 2012)

*crying with you*

Love and prayers to you and your broken heart. So very sorry for the tragic loss of your beloved horses. Try posting something local for any one else in your area. And call all the vets. Breath deep my dear. We care.


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## candandy49 (Jan 16, 2011)

What a terrible emotional journey you have been traveling. Many {{{HUGS}}} coming from me. So sorry for your anguish and grief over the passing of your two horses. I have read the entire thread and am so relieved to know why your 2 horses got so very sick.


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