# Potential purchase. Weanling friesian wb.



## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

What kind of pinto is the mare?

I have a Friesian sporthorse colt myself, coming two this year, so I'm keen on the breed--but the problem is that the mares sometimes are really shoddy and although the babies look great, ALL babies look like they just float over the ground. The mare is VERY VERY important. If she has stock horse blood (APHA, 'unknown' pinto, or QH), most definitely pass. They just don't blend well for a sporthorse prospect.

He has a slopey hind end for me that I don't really like (it's the most important part!), and a short neck, but it's hard to tell anything else without conformation shots.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

The mare is a bit of a mixed bag. She has tb, warmblood and australian stock horse (I am a big fan of aussie stock horses, they are usually built beautifully!). I have asked for some conformation shots of both mare and foal which I am waiting on, and also video of the foal.


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

I actually ride APHA paints, and I love the QH/stock horses. Great guys.

But they just don't mix well with this breed; the babies look cute and they grow up a little awkward. If it's only a little bit I wouldn't worry much. 

Try to get a video of the mare/stallion. The baby's gonna look great--but if the mom has a choppy/flat hunter stride, there's a darn good chance the baby will end up with it. They don't keep the movement they have as babies!

Depending on how serious in dressage you want to be, you have to see how the stallion moves and was bred. There are 'sport horse models' in the friesian world, and then there is the traditional breed standard which have a park-cart horse type movement. Very pretty--terrible canters and what the German's would call 'leg movers'--they tense their back. You don't want to be starting out with all the cards against you!


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

The mare has quite a flat trot but a fairly nice canter. Both her parents had really lovely loose movement so unfortunately she didn't inherit that. The sire has a beautifull trot and canter, not so carthorsey at all, he is much more a riding type. The stallions sire is also bred as a sport horse (pure friesian) and is competing in US dressage as far as I know. 
He does have a lovely back on him, but I'm going to try and hassle for video too. I'm also about to look at the video of mare and foal moving when he was only 2 1/2 weeks, but she's going to send me more of him from now. 
I am ideally wanting to go as far as i can in dressage, at least to advanced on my next horse so yes, I do need something that isn't all legs and has an abilty for collection.


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## TwisterRush (Sep 8, 2009)

i dont know alot about dressage. 
But i have to say, he is absolutely STUNNING! 
i think his movement looks rather good. 
Nice long legs *i like that*
At his age though, it is hard for a critique, especially just being little, if you look at photos of the dam, and sire you will see maybe what his confirmation will be like, but there is no absolute gaurantee.

I think he will be rather lovely in the show ring. 
Let me know if you get him <3


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Ok just saw the video of him at 2 1/2 weeks. Eh, maybe for AU$4500, but definately not 8k. Just not good enough behind for my liking, he's very straight behind and mum has really flat movement.


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

Don't worry, you'll find one. It took me forever to find my boy, but I absolutely love him. If you're looking for something trainable and affectionate, the friesians can't be beat! My boy gets it from his mother's side, and at two years old and still intact, he is an absolute doll. 

I know a ton of Friesian cross breeders here--wish I could help in your area!


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## Attitude05 (Nov 11, 2009)

i work at a riding school, and stud where we breed friesian warmbloods, breed from every type of mare you can think of, and if they are the right quaility np matter what breed they magnificent foals...


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## Attitude05 (Nov 11, 2009)

Bundi, friesian x qh, now competing

Jade Timmins's Photos | Facebook

a range of WL friesians and friesian crosses, all born and bred here

Jade Timmins's Photos | Facebook


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

Sorry, that's not the way breeding works.  You can breed two gorgeous horses and end up with a really awkward baby--there's nothing special about friesians that allows them to skip over this breeding fact.


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## Attitude05 (Nov 11, 2009)

so then why do you say that a friesian qh cross or stock horse x wont work out for what she wants? it could come out looking like a full on friesian for all you know...


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

Horses with stock blood tend to have lower set necks, shorter legs, and flatter--or choppy, if race bred--gaits. This is very different from a friesian, and more often then not, the babies tend to look like a puzzle incorrectly pieced together. They are bred for very different disciplines and jobs.

You give the baby the _best possible chance_ to have good conformation for the job he's going to do, so you breed like-parents together for a common goal. Obviously, if you breed a stock/Friesian, you have a MUCH MUCH smaller chance of getting a good dressage foal then if you breed something that is in line with friesian conformation and the discipline you want to compete in!


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

mayfieldk said:


> Horses with stock blood tend to have lower set necks, shorter legs, and flatter--or choppy, if race bred--gaits. This is very different from a friesian, and more often then not, the babies tend to look like a puzzle incorrectly pieced together. They are bred for very different disciplines and jobs.
> 
> You give the baby the _best possible chance_ to have good conformation for the job he's going to do, so you breed like-parents together for a common goal. Obviously, if you breed a stock/Friesian, you have a MUCH MUCH smaller chance of getting a good dressage foal then if you breed something that is in line with friesian conformation and the discipline you want to compete in!


 Exactly why I took the cautious aproach with this guy. I've been looking for over a year now, and still havent come across anything that really grabs me. A few I've come close to buying, but they've failed a pre purchase check or after seeing more footage I've decided against it.

As said above, just because the stallion is a friesian doesn't mean the foal is going to be stunning no matter what mare you put it to. This is again the backyard breeder saga, chuck a snazzy stallion over a really average mare, you're not necessarily going to get a spectacular baby just because dad is nice. 

I'm most definately NOT going to be jumping into a purchase just because it 'looks pretty' and has a fancy sire. Definately not!! I've worked too hard to earn my pennies, there is no way I'm going to buy something unless I'm 100% convinced it's going to be what I want, at least that way you can slightly minimise the risks of buying a youngster. And with the level of dressage that I'm wanting to have this horse reach, it has absolutely GOT to be the right type for me.


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

I'm glad to hear that!!  Are you looking specifically at Friesian crosses, or 'whatever can do the job'?


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

I have a friend that recently purchased a Fresian/Pinto filly from a specialty breeder. She is absolutely stunning and has the best movement you can imagine. she's going to grow up to be quite the dressage horse!

I think he's gorgeous, for the record


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

My boy has the best mind in the world... and he's a stud!

I am completely sold on this breed, I think


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

I have looked at a few friesian x's. My choice is between WB (not holstein if I can help it, not such a fan of them) and andalusian or friesian x's.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Oh dear I'm being slight re-convinced by him. I got the new video of him today... he's nice, hocks are so much better!!! Hmmmmmmm don't know what to do now, thinking it's time to run the video's by my coach and see what she thinks hmmmm decisions decisions!


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

Haha! If you don't think he's worth their asking price, nine times out of ten, they'll have to lower it because no one ELSE will think he's worth that. So offer them lower, or sit on him for a while and see if they get the bright idea to lower it themselves. I got my boy for 5,500US here.

Make sure the hocks aren't really 'lifty' and trailing out behind! The one thing I love about my boy is that the hocks don't spend all this stupid time up in the air, bent--they spend the important time bending _on the ground_. The hocks can get 'flashy' without ever thrusting and getting the impulsion you need, so watch for that! And remember that his movement will be CONSTANTLY changing. That's why they say the parents are your best indicator of the baby's movement when he's full grown. (I personally have seen many 'springy' babies grow up to be gorgeous hunter horses).

If you're curious (And who doesn't love baby pictures!), here's my guy when we looked at him:












And him now:











(Best confo shot I have at the moment! Or world is covered in snow!)


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Photo's didn't work?? 
Yeah I found his hocks to be better in this video, but they are a little out behind. Hmmmmm it's difficult because as you said, they always change. The first video he was under himself but hocks were very straight. 
Mum looks to be moving a little better in this video too, but certainly not dressage material.


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

I noticed, I fought with the pictures though so they *might* work for you now. (You'd think I'd never done this before! haha)

It's so hard isn't it! If you sit on him at this price, you may have plenty of time to watch him and see how he grows up. If you think he's over-priced, you're probably right--you're a more-then educated buyer.

But, if you find others, do throw them my way. Baby shopping is fun


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

I do think that he is over priced, there are some really spectacular WB's going for that price or not much higher with great blood lines and very well moving parents. Only thing that puts me off is that many of the sires of these babies are so hot headed!! And I'm really not into hot horses, i ride my fair share of tb's and it's ok, but I am really wanting something that thinks about what you're asking first rather than blow up, then think about it!


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

And how lovely is your guy!!! Very very very nice I like him very much.... it's a shame hardly anyone breeds friesian x's around here, they try for the pure breds usually and those are so massively priced, I'm not going to pay that for what are really cart horses.


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

Thank you! 

I know what you mean. I started riding TBs, went to QHs and Paints... and ended up purchasing this guy. You really can't beat a friesian mind... they're so affectionate, quiet, soft, and he really doesn't have any spook to him--didn't when we first got him at 4 months old, either. The first week we had him on the farm, I would take him on walks around our ten acre hay field with no problem--but he's not 'dull' either (like my paint).

I wish you the BEST of luck in finding what you need... a big problem with the Friesian crosses is the 'I bred my paint mare to Nico and I got a paint friesian cross! i want 10,000$!' for something that is essentially useless in competition. Sigh.


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## Sophia (Jun 30, 2009)

I suck at conformation critique but he's a beautiful colt! Not so sure if his neck is long enough though, it seems a bit short in some of the pictures. And like others have pointed out, the mare is just and more important as the the stallion!


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Hmmmm yeah I'm not sure, the stallion is lovely, but the mare is only 'nice' really, she wouldn't be a dressage horse herself. That's the main thing that puts me off her. I'll try to work out how to put the video up here, bare with me for a moment!


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Ok so I have droppped my interest in this colt.

However I seem to be stuck on the friesian sport horses!!
I've just been put onto another breeder and quite like a couple of her youngsters- and of course, one of them is a pinto friesian x paint 

For now, I'll put up the youngsest of the bunch, he's 50% friesian, with the dam side being clydi x wb so he's going to be a solid, HAIRY little guy!I am in love with alot of the clydi x's over here at the moment, I know a few people who have them and they're very even tempered with really nice paces. So I'm quite liking this guys breeding.
He's definately not as spectacular as the last one in the sense of colour and also movement up front, all I have are some real baby photo's of him piddling aroudn in the paddock so they're going to try and get me some decent moving photo's as well as some of the sire and dam. He should mature approx. 15.2-16hh.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

-_-
Friesian Sporthorse, what an oxymoron!
The reason you noticed that the first foals hocks were out behind him is because all Friesians, with the exception of a very very seldom few, have hocks way out behind them. This next guy looks to have the same problem.
Sorry to all the Friesian lovers! But they are carriage horses, not sporthorses. Yes Hanoverians started out as a carriage breed but they bred a lot of TB and arab into those horses before they became the breed they are now.
They look flashy, and you might get a few decent scores, but unless you have the worlds top bloodlines and a spectacular foal, you're gonna get stuck at 2nd level trying to get a decent amount of collection out of the horse. I've seen it happen a lot, even with professional riders.

Good luck on your horse hunt!


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

Modern dressage is producing horses with small hind ends, massive shoulders, tense backs, hot minds, and the inability to sit.

Case in point, a horse wildly regarded as a great mover, and the world-record holder:










Many people are turning towards _baroque_ breeds, which is what the friesian is. There are many pure friesians competing in dressage (Like Tinus, a 4-time USDF Horse of the Year Champion now competing grand prix), as well as crosses. Friesians were warhorses, then went on to high school work, some have been used as trotters in races... and then they have been modified and refined. The more 'traditional' stallions and mares are what you're thinking off--they are sometimes used as carriage horses, have high knee/hock action, long backs, and are virtually useless as competition horses.

But remember, theses horse once did (and _still do_) high school work. There are lines that are bred for dressage. There are several that jump, and jump well. It is an elitist notion to say, "Oh, that is a X breed of horse. They couldn't _possibly_ do dressage!" If you've ever seen the movie 'Ratatouille', the quote is 'anyone can cook'. And it's not to say everyone can be a good cook, but a good cook [or a good dressage horse], *can come from anywhere. *That little Orlov Trotter comes specifically to mind.

Regarding the crosses, like any cross, they can be done right, or they can be done wrong. You see plenty of 'warmblood crosses' sell for 1,000 dollars, breeds that are outcrossed to big name stallions that crashed and burned (because the mare was crap). There's a way to do it right and a way to do it wrong. Don't knock the cross because you've only seen the bad ones.

For this guy specifically, his stifles look high and the front legs a little short--but absolutely the main point of concern is his neck. That little sucker has got a HUGE neck that will only get bigger. My colt's neck ballooned from his weanling photos--and with the draft in him, and his neck that short... His underside of the neck is already bulging. That much weight on the front end, with what looks might turn into a longish back... that spells 'hard work!' to me.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Meh, I still don't like Friesians. I don't like any Baroque breed really for that matter. For sitting at home in your backyard and doing some dressage, they're great. But for competition dressage you're going to get slaughtered.

And I'm dead tired of people knocking Totilas. Yes whatever the horse's movement is un-natural but seriously?! I would love to hear about the time you rode in the Olympics, mayfieldk.
The horse was bred for dressage, he made it to Grand Prix and is scoring well above the 70%. He must have some talent, or at least more than most nags.


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

And I'm dead tired of people validating something that's wrong just because he's winning. WP trainers used to win with drugged horses, anemic horses, horses with broken tails, horses underweight... and they would say, 'yeah but he's still the congress champion.' Rollkur wins, obviously. Does that make it right? Does that mean I have to blindfold myself and cover my ears?

The only way we get better is to take a critical eye to what we are doing. Anything else is ignorant.

No one said you have to like baroque breeds; all I suggested was that you take your ill-informed breed-prejudice out the door. Kyra Kyrklund is working with a PRE prospect at the moment... guess she's going to get slaughtered. Rociero, an Andalusian, does quite well [if he keeps his current ranking, he'll qualify for the olympics]. Courtney King Dye is competing with another PRE... another slaughter I suppose.


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## xeventer17 (Jan 26, 2009)

This thread is getting a little catty, but I have to chime in and say that I have to agree with mayfieldk. It's perfectly acceptable to have your own opinions, and express them for that matter. If you dislike baroque type horses, anebel, then so be it. However, stating that they can't be good competition horses is incredibly untrue, and very ignorant for you to say. I personally have met quite a few very successful Andalusians competing in Prix St George and upwards.

Also, simply because someone does not compete at the highest level of riding does not mean they lack the knowledge to accurately assess another person or horse who does. Skill and knowledge are two VERY different things. 
And just because a horse is bred for something does not necessarily mean they are going to be good at it. There are so many horses to be found with "amazing" bloodlines selling for incredibly cheap simply because they did not turn out like their parents.

On a completely separate note, anebel, since you are so very against baroque type horses competing in dressage, is it fair to say that you are the sort of person who believes a horse that is not a warmblood and doesn't carry a hefty price tag should not be competing in dressage as well?


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