# The Pursuit of Instant Gratification



## JustDressageIt

Very intersting thread, it certainly provokes thought. I really can't get my own thoughts together right now, but I hope to revisit this with something more to say than "good thread." 

Okay - one thought..... how do you think that, let's say people ages 20 and up (when most grade school learning was pre-Google) compare to, say, under-20s as far as expectations go? Do you think the younger generations are more impatient, or less? Do you think there's any difference in expectations? How about compared with "older" (relatively speaking, of course!) generations?


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## bubba13

As a 21-year-old, rather than having a foot in both worlds, I feel isolated from the two and can't really say. Some of the writing (a few sentences directed specifically at adult riders) were written by my now-deceased boss, who was a trainer who specialized in the unique needs of middle-aged, frequently fearful riders. Most were beginners or late-in-life re-riders.

That said, I definitely think kids want to go fast, but I wouldn't necessarily blame that mentality on the Internet. I imagine kids have always wanted to go fast. That's youth.

I think it's worse with adults nowadays. They're in fast-paced jobs, married to their computers, rushing around with a million deadlines. They don't have a lot of time for their horses, so when they do make it out to the barn, they want to maximize their time. I knew a 50-something woman (a student at my job) who, after taking two lessons for the first time in her life, declared that she would like to purchase a couple of young horses and train them herself.

And then there are the folks in the competitive world who will happily write a huge check for a prospect, drop it off at the big name trainer's for months on end, turn a blind eye to any abuse that may be occuring, and just show up to ride. Where's the fun or glory in that? Doesn't take a whole lot of skill. They expect someone else to do all the work for them.

Or how many posts are there on this forum? "My horse won't _____, what should I do?" Take a lesson, read a book, work through it yourself...but that's generally not the sort of advice people want to hear. Easier to just whine on the 'net. (Not saying that everyone who asks a question here is guilty of that mentality, but you know the type.)


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## thesilverspear

In my experience of umpteen livery yards/boarding stables, the people most likely to be over-horsed are the middle aged adults who were finally able to fulfill their dreams of owning a horse. There is a certain sort of person who just leaps into it, buys a horse because it's pretty but not necessarily suited to beginners, and then realizes horses are a ton of work and require quite a lot of knowledge and skill.


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## Doe

Bubba

I couldn't agree more. As I wrote just yesterday in another thread I believe that some of the professional training/competition industries are abhorrent in the 'normal' way they conduct their business.
When asked why they begin training at 2 I have always been told it's because thats usually when the knees set. Unfortunately however what they do not care about is the fact that the back sets last. Not until between 5 and 6 years of age on average!
A horses back is not designed to carry our weight, that is why riding in collection, and saddle fit etc is so important to minimise the impact. To therefore put such strain on backs that are not even yet set is disgraceful in these times when it is not necessary. 
Add to this the incredible physical demands of some of the manoeuvres in sports such as reining, and the fact that typically these trainers are not lightweight jockeys...........
However, money is involved and so it is unlikely to change. It's a numbers game. The ruined horses are the price that is paid to find the one or two that succeed and make big bucks.
If anyone cares to dispute the permanent physical damage caused by starting these horses so young and training in such a way then I am happy to provide all the detail they need for discussion.


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## Marecare

Doe,
I believe that we both might have a great deal in common if we were both to sit down and talk horses for and afternoon after a quiet ride BUT you risk loosing your audience by your delivery in my opinion.

Yes many horses can be damaged and are with modern practices but there are many people that are fully aware of the risks and take them into account.

I understand your passion for the message but a horses need for collection is not the only thing that keeps it from snapping in half.

Yes people are in a hurry and want fast results.
Yes they are driven by ribbons and money BUT many are not at all.

An out of balance rider on an out of balance MATURE horse can cause just as much harm in my opinion.

It is not just the age of the start or the trainer that a person tries to emulate that causes the harm.

The loss of interest is more than likely the greatest harm that is done to the horse.
New people find out how much dedication that is needed and abandon the horse for other interests.

Mentors are needed to guide the process for success.

Here are a few pictures of a two year old being started under saddle to get you hot under the collar.


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## Doe

Dear Marecare

I am certain that we would have a lot in common, and I am sure there are many things I could learn from you, and hopefully vice versa. One of the difficulties with the Internet is that it is difficult for others to see my manner as I write.

I understand that there are many ways to start a horse. I too would definitely get a horse used to a saddle etc as soon as possible. I understand and accept that there are many who care and do things differently. That does not change the fact that I believe that training a horse for reining at 2 years of age is damaging to it's wellbeing. That is due to the sheer amount of saddle time required and the stresses placed upon a skeletal frame that is not yet matured.

I believe there are several groups of people. 

There are those that don't know what they don't yet know. Many things we are taught as the just accepted methods. I like to ask the question why? If the answer is well because thats just how it's always been done, or people begin to get defensive, then I get suspicious. Many traditional ways make absolute sense, in which case it is easy to explain why they are best. Equally if there is a good reason for change, then that too can be explained. Hopefully we can discuss these things where questions are raised and then they can make their own decisions.

There are those like me who are always open to new thoughts and information and these I hope to engage in discussion with via a forum such as this so we can always learn and improve our lives and those of our horses.

Then there are the people that may suspect, but do not wish to know. Perhaps because they are concerned that in their heart of hearts if they were to face the facts they may have to change what they do. We are unlikely to agree and that is fine.

Then there are the people who know, but don't care. That is down to their own ethics and conscience. We will never agree and that is fine with me. Each to his own, that is their freedom as it stands.

I would just love for everyone involved with horses to have a better understanding even of just their anatomy. That alone could make a world of difference to our horses.

Lovely photos by the way are they you? (no hot collars I can assure you)


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## ScharmLily

Mostly I agree with what has been said so far. I am definitely not the norm for my age. I do not like all the hustle, buzz, noise, and need for instant gratification of the technological age. Rather, I like to think things thoroughly through and decide on a course of action based on common sense and reason rather than what may be popular in society. Sometimes I feel that no one knows how to do the necessary research before committing to owning any animal, but especially horses.

My mentality is best summed up by this: Having just bought a new horse (6 yr old gelding) I fully expect to take years of consistent training for him to become a reliable and fully trained mount. Like all my animals, I plan on having this horse for the rest of his life, meaning I will have likely another 20+ years with him. So what's the rush? My main priorities right now are relaxation and rhythm under saddle, and building his muscles in such a way that they will be able to support healthy activity for the rest of his life. If only someone had been so considerate of my 26 yr old gelding who now has back issues and is mostly done his riding years because of the incorrect training he had in the past. No one ever bothered to teach him to use himself correctly. He always travelled with back hollow, neck up, and legs flying out the back. He has much in common conformationally and mentally with my new guy, but already the difference that good training makes is obvious.

This being said however, altough I do believe that the fast-paced show world and the countless "trainers" only interested in quick results have been tremendously detrimental to the horse, I am inclined to disagree that it was better in the past. I truly believe that as a society (in the US at least), humans are much more likely to treat horses as living creatures than beasts of burden. The fact that there are now more shelters than ever, that being an animal abuse/neglect cop is now a job, and even the more humane portrayal of animals in the media, leads me to this conclusion. I think that as a whole, the horse world would now frown upon the sharp spurs and whips that were commonplace in the old days, as well as the badly fitting tack and common "breaking" tactics of the horsepeople. I do not agree that horses were started any slower. Just because they weren't considered finished until age 7 or 8, does not mean that they weren't subjected to hours of hard work under saddle to "earn their keep."

Anyway, I could go on but I won't make this an essay  Overall though, I do wholeheartedly agree that the expectation of instant gratification is one of the worst aspects of the horse world.


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## Marecare

Humans spend a great deal of time trying to find and define the differences between horse and human.
They get all caught up in the predator/prey thing and start describing all interaction based on this premise.

I believe that this help to create a climate of conflict and great expectations on the part of the handler.

Horses are described as lazy or mean or stupid on a regular basis.

So on one hand we look for how different we are and then we describe our interaction in very human terms and start accusing the horse of having human faults.

Very funny!

I do* not* believe the horses are lazy or mean or stupid at all.
Now I do believe that they can be made that way by the environment that they live in.

The expectations that humans bring to the total relationship is the primary factor in the mental and physical health of the animal and when we are in a hurry things get even worse.

I must point out that we as a species are a fight or flight creature also and that is how we survived the tyrannosaurus rex.


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## ridergirl23

Its interesting I read this post today because yesturday after my lesson in a dressage clinic my friend asked me if i ever missed jumping, and that got me thinking, Why am i in dressage? because i do miss jumping a little bit, but i love dressage because its always a challenge to train the horse more and improve our teamwork. Sometimes when i get caught up in competitions and clinics and everything i forget WHY i am in dressage, to enjoy and train the horse AND me. The last competition i went to I finally began to get over my fear of the ring and me and my horse got a little bit better, honestly, I finally felt the feeling and understood how that was a greater feeling then winning a red ribbon. I have finally figured out it is for fun, to improve me and the horse, and to me having a bond with my horse, and knowing i can trust my horse to be safe for me and to trust me is the best feeling i have ever felt. 

I think the 'net is an amazing place to gain information and honestly, I think it has helped millions of people with lots of problems they may have, It definitely should not take the place of a good trainer, but it is a great aid I think and it opens up a whole new world of ideas for people. I get nervous when i go into the dressage ring in competitions, so I looked up sports phycologists, and i dont want to mention names, but i looked it up on google and found a fantastic website and read articles by the lady and looked all over her website, it helped me a LOT, the lady lives in the states, I would never have gotten that help if there wasn't the 'net to help me.

I think people need to ride for the joy of riding and being with horses, and know that the 'net is not a trainer, but just and aid to further your education and get many peoples different ideas to keep and open mind. Like most things, sometimes people just get to caught up.


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## ridergirl23

Marecare said:


> Humans spend a great deal of time trying to find and define the differences between horse and human.
> They get all caught up in the predator/prey thing and start describing all interaction based on this premise.
> 
> I believe that this help to create a climate of conflict and great expectations on the part of the handler.
> 
> Horses are described as lazy or mean or stupid on a regular basis.
> 
> So on one hand we look for how different we are and then we describe our interaction in very human terms and start accusing the horse of having human faults.
> 
> Very funny!
> 
> I do* not* believe the horses are lazy or mean or stupid at all.
> Now I do believe that they can be made that way by the environment that they live in.
> 
> The expectations that humans bring to the total relationship is the primary factor in the mental and physical health of the animal and when we are in a hurry things get even worse.
> 
> I must point out that we as a species are a fight or flight creature also and that is how we survived the tyrannosaurus rex.


I agree! i never really thought about it that way, that we are flight or fight creatures too! but i just have to correct this, people were not aroudn when the dinos were, but that is how we survived (and still do survive) against large mammals like bears, and big cats!


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## PaintedFury

Bubba, you bring up a very interesting and valid point; as does Doe and Marecare. When I was younger I ran barrels and poles and it was a blast, win or lose. I had fun with my horse, and had an amazing bond with him. I would do stuff on him that most of the people that I showed with would not dream of doing the same things with their running horses. It took many hours of blood, sweat, and tears to form that bond. And it was before the internet was as big of a factor in seeking knowledge as it is today. Then I had to just figure it out for myself for the most part. I took a major cursing from an uncle after I taught my gelding simple collection, because my uncle thought that I had ruined a barrel and pole horse by teaching him collection, that was something only pleasure horses could benefit from. After the first show, when I shaved 2 seconds off of each pattern, he changed his mind though. My uncle thought that by slowing the horses feet at walk, trot, and lope, that it would slow his feet during a pattern. It didn't, and actually taught the horse to make a better turn around the barrels and end poles. For me, this wasn't even the end goal in me teaching him to collect and use his body correctly. I wanted to get his head out of my face and reduce the risk of his rearing up, which he was known for. It took me all winter of riding rain or shine to get this done between September and March, so between the end of one show season and the beginning of the next. In that time span, I never looked at a barrel pattern or pole pattern, I actually took them down and put them away. In that time I built a bond with my horse that I had also never expected. I rode him for the most part with his reins laying on his neck, and used only leg and seat ques to put him where I wanted him.

I think that this is the type of bond that most people want with their horses, some just don't want to put in the time and effort that it takes to get it. And that is a pity because it is SO worth it. They want it right now, and as soon as they get the horse, and that is not going to happen, and it won't be earned. Anyone that does not understand the time and patience that it takes to do anything with horses, even just plod down the trails, IMHO shouldn't have horses.


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## Doe

Marecare said:


> Humans spend a great deal of time trying to find and define the differences between horse and human.
> They get all caught up in the predator/prey thing and start describing all interaction based on this premise.
> 
> I believe that this help to create a climate of conflict and great expectations on the part of the handler.
> 
> Horses are described as lazy or mean or stupid on a regular basis.
> 
> So on one hand we look for how different we are and then we describe our interaction in very human terms and start accusing the horse of having human faults.
> 
> Very funny!
> 
> I do* not* believe the horses are lazy or mean or stupid at all.
> Now I do believe that they can be made that way by the environment that they live in.
> 
> The expectations that humans bring to the total relationship is the primary factor in the mental and physical health of the animal and when we are in a hurry things get even worse.
> 
> I must point out that we as a species are a fight or flight creature also and that is how we survived the tyrannosaurus rex.


Very elegantly put, could not agree more.


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## TheLovedOne

Is it really the information age or technological revolution that has created the need for people to have instant gratification. I think that the media creating false needs and false competition is actually a bigger contribution. I've observed a few people that are so intense about getting their horses further along and it seems to me that they have some kind of competition scenario playing out in their minds. 

It's seems so foreign to me but then I'm not a competitive person. And when I have competed it really didn't mean anything to me but a lot of getting up early on the weekend and a lot of preparation. I think the people who came with me got way more excited about winning ribbons than I did - LOL.


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## Marecare

I really don't like to look at anything to do with horses as a competition.

I prefer to describe it more as a "first date".

Imagine that we are on our first date and we are walking through the park holding hands.
We are getting to know each other and are feeling pretty comfortable about the way things are going.
The conversation is flowing along real well and we are each enjoying the company of the other.

Now I would really like to steer you over to the park bench where I might be able to steal a kiss but the timing has to be just right or I risk spoiling the whole evening.

It takes "read" and "timing" or the whole deal will fall apart and that is what happens with most beginning horse trainers.
They may have the kissing part down but they try it at the wrong time.

The process is* rushed* because they don't have enough experience to have "read" yet.


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## TheLovedOne

Yes definitely the inexperienced do make timing, feel, and read errors. Sometimes it costs them big time - injuries even death but rarely. I thought this post was a little bit more about people who just rush to get a result. There are plenty of equine service providers that do this because often their clientele cannot differentiate. So they pump them through and don't care because they have no ethics. But this too is just a result of people being in a hurry and not understanding what is involved. It can take 6 months to two years for me to put a proper foundation on a horse. I don't think that I'm particularly slow but compared to what almost all people in BC, Canada like to tell you it is really slow. 30 days of training is nothing and it is so weird that 30 days has become a metric. When I was a girl nobody spoke that way. Either the horse was broke or it was not broke - end of story. 

I would say it is people who charge money to train horses more than it is the ignorance of the novice that is causing this rush training - ha. But I think it is changing now because there is so little call for horse trainers these days and so it will change whether one likes it or not.


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## bubba13

I remember a few months back reading in one of the major horse magazines about some reining stallion who was still sound and competing at the ripe old age of nine--*nine!* Since when did keeping a horse useable only up to the first third of its life expectancy become something boast-worthy? How is this acceptable?

I don't know about anyone else, but as I've gotten older (heh) I find that I take much more pleasure in the _growing_ process of riding. I've done the competition thing. I never had the money for an expensive, already-trained horse, so I had to make do with my own, but fore years my parents spent an absolute fortune on lessons, and trainers, and gadgets, and hours and hours hauling me back and forth from place to place. And yes, turning a blind eye to some of the questionable, er, abusive things the trainers were either doing to my horses, or having me inflict, in the name of improvement. And I had good results, yes, both from the borderline cruelty of the trainers and from my own, more sensible, hard work. But it was only after leaving the trainers and going out completely on my own that I began to relax and take real pride in what I was doing. In barrel racing, I climbed to the top of my game, taking the "crazy" mare the trainer had all but wrecked through harshness, channeling her energy, and winning.

And then the mare got hurt, and stayed hurt, and two years and two months later I've finally realized that there is no going back. I'm done. Three vets, two states, $6000 in diagnostics and treatment for a niggling left front leg problem...it's over. With other my other barrel horses all retired, lame, blown, or dead, I have to give up the sport I loved so dearly. 

But it's the joy of running that gray mare that hurts most of all. She, the horse I broke myself, started myself, trained myself, wrecked (with the trainer's help), rehabbed myself, treated myself, brought back, won...all me. She's my horse; we've got a Black Beauty bond in a far less romantic sense than the movie, but if you've ever had a horse like that that's _your_ horse then you know what I'm talking about. THAT, to me, is what the process of riding is about: art, companionship, spirituality, hard physical work, blood/sweat/tears...doing it yourself, and growing.

Let me further illustrate with some pictures.

To take this:










To this:










To this:










Even if I could afford to buy a ready-made barrel horse now, I wouldn't want to. Sure, I could get the $5, $10, $20,000+ barrel horse, and win--but what's the honor or prestige or _learning process_ of that? Anybody can be a jockey on a pushbutton horse if you hold on tight enough. It's the same story in most disciplines. Spend enough money, know the right people, and you can win. Whoop-de-doo. Go you. I'll take my $200 cripple any day, and be glad for it (though the pain, I'll admit, still does very much sting, and the jealousy of how "doing it right" got punished...).

Or, how about this?



















See how much fun we're having? :roll:

When I finally came to turns with the fact that the sorrel Did Not Want to be a barrel horse, well, a lot of re-training had to happen. Namely, I had to try to rehabilitate her from the things I had allowed to happen to her at the hands of the professional, world champion trainer...things like ghastly bits and beatings with a length of hose tubing around the head and face. Real classy stuff.

And now?




























Competing at--and winning--an extreme cowboy race. No prestige, no fancy trophy saddle won, actually only got half my entry fee back...but score one for legitimate horsemanship. Both the mare and I enjoyed ourselves. 

It's been a long time coming.


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## Marecare

Thank you for sharing your story Bubba13.

I hope that it inspires people to look at the "Whole Picture" and maybe choose to protect the longevity of their horse.

They give us so much and always pay the final price don't they?


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## TheLovedOne

Well Bubba I think your story is not that unique BUT the ending is and for that I thank you on behalf of your horse. Competition ARGH.


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## bubba13

I hate that competition is the only way to "prove" yourself and your horses. Otherwise people don't take notice or care.

I hate also that events have become so specialized. In the Western world, you need a separate pleasure horse:










and reining horse:










and barrel horse:










and halter horse:











Where does it end? 

Look at Thoroughbred racing, where we've bred superfast athletes who can run quicker than anything in the past...but who frequently break down, or who have feet that fall apart, or any myriad of problems. Longevity is not a concern, nor is usefulness in anything save speed. Most other disciplines aren't much better. I'm not an absolute stickler for a jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none horse, but it sure is nice to have some sort of all-arounder. Even when I would scope out barrel prospects, I never wanted anything bred specifically for barrels. I don't like the type or the look (too fine-boned, too nuts-in-the-head), and the price tag is unreal. Give me a good, sound using-type horse, and I'll make it myself.

Not that I'm against competition or speed. I'm not. I really, really miss barrel racing. Not the people--I hated many of them, for how they acted and what they did and what they stood for. And not even necessarily the competitive aspect, though it sure was nice to win (get awards, trophies, money, bragging rights...I won't lie, those things are awesome). I think it was the feel of a good horse coiling beneath me, rolling up, bursting through the gate...an adrenaline rush, and all that. You can't get that anywhere else. Nothing has the same appeal.

But maybe we need more venues for things like that, as substitutes. 

Competition is an unavoidable aspect of human nature. Nothing wrong with healthy competition. But we need to be careful when catching animals up in our own power struggles.


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## bubba13

*What have we done to the horses?*

Since the topic of this thread has expanded considerably from the initial "taking the quick fix instead of the slow road" theme, here we go with more food for thought:

Pictures will, for the moment, suffice for thousands of words (and sorry for the GIANT pics, but they emphasize the point):


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## TheLovedOne

You are preaching to the choir. I don't even know what that last picture is... but it doesn't look good to me. 

All I can say is my horses have won the lottery. I will not waste even one minute of my life going to horse competitions and/or being in them. I would rather train for a marathon and run my butt into the ground than another creature. The people on those horses just look like devils to me and probably represent the very worst in competition no doubt. 

I think one of the worst things that has happened is all the bad breeding. Look at the halter and western pleasure horses. Like what is this a science experiment gone wrong. Nope I would rather have a mustang or a ranch bred working horse thank you very much. Two of my horses are nicely bred warmbloods but I doubt very much if they would be alive if it would have been natural selection which I believe is far superior to anything that humans have created.


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## PaintedFury

That last picture is the results of soaring, that many racking and/or walking horses are subjected to in an effort to product the walk or rack like the picture above it. It is a long time practice of many, many walking horse and racking horse trainers. The ring stewards usually overlook it, though it is an illegal practice. Each horse is supposed to be checked by the stewards for signs of soaring, but the horses have been beaten to where they are scared to move even when a hand is laid on a soared area. It's barbaric to say the least, and I'm sorry but the S-O-B's that practice this should have it done on their privates, so they might think twice about doing it to a horse again.


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## kitten_Val

bubba13 said:


> What have we done to the horses?


If you think about it we can ask exactly same about pretty much anything. For example what about child/elderly abuse (and some other stuff I don't even want to bring on public forum with kids access)? Yes, there are those among us who indeed do all those horrible things. Does it mean ALL of us are like that? Definitely not. Most of us treat horse as a partner (and a friend). Moreover those POS (excuse my language) treating horses the way you posted are the minority. And lots of people stand up against such actions.


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## Doe

kitten_Val said:


> If you think about it we can ask exactly same about pretty much anything. For example what about child/elderly abuse (and some other stuff I don't even want to bring on public forum with kids access)? Yes, there are those among us who indeed do all those horrible things. Does it mean ALL of us are like that? Definitely not. Most of us treat horse as a partner (and a friend). Moreover those POS (excuse my language) treating horses the way you posted are the minority. And lots of people stand up against such actions.


Kitten Val

I agree with what you say, in that this might not be the majority. I also understand that the discussion of abuse of horses is one which can become quite heated easily. However coming from the perspective that none of us in this discussion want to abuse horses if I may just pose some questions for genuine discussion.

Firstly I agree that many people do not treat there horses this way. However whenever I have seen posts such as this with the photos, the reaction surprises me. Personally even one case of this is too many, and I have to say that it's more common than perhaps we want to admit, it's all a matter of degree.

For example, whenever we discuss bits the answer will always come back with it's not the bit that harms it's how it's used. If we assume agreement with that statement, then we also take responsibility for not causing pain via a bit to a horses mouth. Yet every time I watch any horse sports (and please I am not attacking any sport here I am just raising questions for genuine discussion) I see horses with gaping mouths or raised heads trying to avoid the discomfort of the bit.

I have been to reining competitions in the Uk, Germany and the US (including Oklahoma). Every time I have been to a competition I have seen trainers bumping horses mouths with a serious leverage bit such as a curb to make the horse lower it's headset before the ride. Now I've had people saying I'm sorry all you see is the negative, but that's what I see. It's a fact, and seeing as how it's seems most of the trainers are doing it, I have to consider it widespread.

If I can give an example of my position. I retrain ex racing greyhounds in my spare time. I recondition them not to chase cats so they can live as pets. They make wonderful pets, but the normal standard they come to us is shocking. My own greyhound (RIP Ben the greatest dog I have ever had the privilege to meet March 2011) actually failed drugs tests on his last day and when I got him he was an addict! Yes he was addicted to Codene and cough mixture! Behind the rescue kennels is a trainer who brings in the dogs from Ireland as pups. In a lorry with 100 pups at a time I see 20-30 die en-route. It's a money and numbers game. Now on the other hand I know a couple of people who race greyhounds. They live and train only as pets. The dogs enjoy it, and when they retire they still have a loving home until they die. I have no problem with them. That is how it should be to me. However I will not step foot at the races, because by doing so my money is supporting the people like that trainer I talked of.

This is why I do not personally compete with horses. It is a personal choice, but ultimately I have taken the responsibility I mentioned, and I cannot promise I will meet that responsibility in the heat of competition. It is too easy in the flash of a moment to pull on the horse, perhaps fight with it more than I want, even use a whip whatever. All things that would undo everything I work towards and stand for with any horse I meet, so I just wont put myself in that position. 

So my first question is - do we not want to discuss these things because we feel it might threaten what we love to do ourselves I.e compete? Genuine question for discussion, not to cause offence or single anyone out.


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## Spyder

kitten_Val said:


> If you think about it we can ask exactly same about pretty much anything. For example what about child/elderly abuse (and some other stuff I don't even want to bring on public forum with kids access)? Yes, there are those among us who indeed do all those horrible things. Does it mean ALL of us are like that? Definitely not. Most of us treat horse as a partner (and a friend). Moreover those POS (excuse my language) treating horses the way you posted are the minority. And lots of people stand up against such actions.


Unfortunately too many people look at 1% of a discipline and paint the whole discipline/horse world as abusers.

Those people are the ones that inflame the majority. People like them usually are the ones that cause their way of thinking to be shut out immediately because they are so fanatical.

If any of them really had an open mind ( which they say they do but in reality do not) then people outside of their way of thinking would look at what they have to offer instead of shutting them down instantly.

The sad part is that parts of what they think, most people do or have done as part of a natural progression within their own training methods but are unwilling to say so for fear of being labeled as a member of one of these groups..

This also refers to the original topic. While some feel they must get their horse out at 2 years ( 2 year old futurities come to mind) others wait for the horse to mature before it is asked to put their body to full use. It is up to the individual to assess their horse and that is the basis of thinking horsemanship, for in the end the results of their decision will come back to bite them in the rear or prove itself as a willing and able horse that is still working in its late teens.


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## kitten_Val

Doe said:


> Personally even one case of this is too many, and I have to say that it's more common than perhaps we want to admit, it's all a matter of degree.


There is NO excuse to even one photo. I completely agree with it. IMHO abuse (whether it's animal or human) IS criminal and should be punished as one. 

However I don't think it's fair to give judgment on discipline (or riders/owners/breeders in general) based just on some very few people, who are the shame for those of us treating horses appropriately. I mean... If we want to be honest, we have to consider both sides of the picture, not just the dark one.


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## TheLovedOne

I don't think that any discipline is getting singled out in this thread and I don't know if I completely agree with you Val. I think however that some members get really emotional very quickly if they even get a sense that something is being said about a sport that they're involved in. I just wish that they would get a little more upset that any of that stuff happens at all in the sense that there should be a better mechanism at these events to stop it. I know that there has been some reporting in recent history and I'm glad for that. BUT when I hear that you have to pay in order to report abuse I am simply unimpressed.

I haven't been to a show in a few years but in all honesty the last one I attended (to watch Leslie Reid qualify for the Pan Am games) I didn't see abuse at all. It was a small group of people in attendance and other than Leslie getting upset in the practice ring and spurring her horse briefly because he wouldn't engage properly it was uneventful. I did think less of Leslie after seeing that but it also didn't make me sob. Before anyone gets upset I actually think Leslie is a fabulous rider - beautiful to watch and her horses usually very animated with lots of swung which is a head about most other riders and I guess it makes sense she has won gold at the Pan Am Games. 

Syder maybe what you say is true to some extent. I know horse people are very guilty of bashing people when it isn't warranted but I also think that we need to come together on these issues and not apart.


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## kitten_Val

TheLovedOne said:


> BUT when I hear that *you have to pay in order to report abuse* I am simply unimpressed.


What do you mean, TLO? Like paying police or animal rights just to report it? That sounds really weird to me!


----------



## Equilove

That was actually a demonstration; the horse wasn't left like that for more than 5 minutes at most, I believe..


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## bubba13

kitten_Val said:


> If you think about it we can ask exactly same about pretty much anything. For example what about child/elderly abuse (and some other stuff I don't even want to bring on public forum with kids access)? Yes, there are those among us who indeed do all those horrible things. Does it mean ALL of us are like that? Definitely not. Most of us treat horse as a partner (and a friend). Moreover those POS (excuse my language) treating horses the way you posted are the minority. And lots of people stand up against such actions.


I think it's naive and Pollyanna-ish to say that this is only a very small minority of the horse owning / competing population. Now granted things like TWH soring are abhorrent to all sensible, humane people, and the vast majority of people indeed would not participate in such abuse. But I'm talking about more insidious, subtler things. Rolkur. Two-year-old futurities. Dangerous steeplechasing. Cable/wire/rope headsetters. Even pushing a horse physically or mentally....not mega-hard, but beyond sensible limits. Do we think that we are not guilty of these things, or do we not see them as a problem?

But maybe that's the issue in a nutshell. Maybe our problem in general is that we are too....accustomed, too complacent about the use of this tack, this equipment, these training techniques. We've grown up being told that "it's all in how it's used, and this is the norm, and it's fine." And that's true, on a superficial level, but really?

All riding is unnatural by very definition, but at what point do we say, "hold up, we've gone too far"? When we're injecting our horses every six months to keep them sound enough to compete? When we're sticking a hunk of metal in their mouths to force them into a headset, or learn a bolter a good lesson about running off? When we're putting too much weight on their backs, riding for hours at a time without offering food or water, treating them well but putting them in a discipline that they clearly hate? When we're kicking like the gal in the second picture--but only for 15 seconds, so that's OK, right? When we're risking them over high jumps, steep hills, and water crossings, or running them full out on a wet slick track, but saying that the potential payout is worth the minimal risk of injury?

How does a good horseman, even with the purest of intentions, always determine what is and is not in the horse's best interest? How can one without bias decide whether to buck normal, accepted, but arguably harmful training practices--having trouble articulating here--or how does one decide when a line has been crossed, when in all honesty, all training is based off of pressure and release and is thus by necessity unnatural and unpleasant for the horse, even in the absolute best of scenarios? 

How do you draw the line at "what hurts the horse?" What causes some discomfort? Pain? Bruises? Makes him bleed?


----------



## Doe

Spyder said:


> Unfortunately too many people look at 1% of a discipline and paint the whole discipline/horse world as abusers.
> 
> Those people are the ones that inflame the majority. People like them usually are the ones that cause their way of thinking to be shut out immediately because they are so fanatical.
> 
> If any of them really had an open mind ( which they say they do but in reality do not) then people outside of their way of thinking would look at what they have to offer instead of shutting them down instantly.
> 
> The sad part is that parts of what they think, most people do or have done as part of a natural progression within their own training methods but are unwilling to say so for fear of being labeled as a member of one of these groups..
> 
> This also refers to the original topic. While some feel they must get their horse out at 2 years ( 2 year old futurities come to mind) others wait for the horse to mature before it is asked to put their body to full use. It is up to the individual to assess their horse and that is the basis of thinking horsemanship, for in the end the results of their decision will come back to bite them in the rear or prove itself as a willing and able horse that is still working in its late teens.


Spyder 

Firstly the reason that I tend to single out specific sports is because I will only offer an opinion on that which I feel I have sufficient experience of to qualify. You will not hear me talk of show jumping or barrel racing for example, as I have little experience of these fields. This is why reining and dressage tend to be my focus simply because I feel the body of evidence is significant.

Secondly I personally am happy to answer any questions about my own background and journey. Again the reason I feel able and qualified to write about many of the NH popular methods is because I have studied and used them at length. That is also why I would not tell someone else not to use them. I simply raise questions for their own consideration.



> However I don't think it's fair to give judgment on discipline (or riders/owners/breeders in general) based just on some very few people, who are the shame for those of us treating horses appropriately. I mean... If we want to be honest, we have to consider both sides of the picture, not just the dark one.


Kitten, Spyder I agree. I am talking about industries. Professionals whose living comes from these sports I am always clear about that hopefully. I will not use the word abuse as it's too emotive. However a lot of this depends on what we consider acceptable.

I am personally concerned about anything that as a matter of course is so damaging to horses that their long term health and utility is jeopardised. Ie a turnover industry. 

The overwhelming body of equine medical evidence clearly demonstrates that executing slide stops, spins and roll backs at 2-3 years of age is physically painful and permanently and irreparably damaging to the horse. If this is not the case then why are they retired when they have only just reached physical maturity?

Now every rider and every trainer who takes part in the futurities is therefore guilty of this very thing. That is not 1% it's everyone in that profession. You cannot compete in the futurity without completing and training for the pattern that involves these manoeuvres.

The difference is they do not care about the long term utility and mental wellbeing of the horse. It is about money and there will be a constant stream of new horses. People are placing their horses in training and paying money for results. Either for status or money and usually both. It's a business, and that is the normal process within that business.

If you consider that such a waste of horses such a conveyor belt process is not an issue and is ethically ok then fine, you will not agree with me. However if you agree that such long term impact is wrong, then you cannot then say reining is fine.

That is the difference versus an owner starting a horse at 2 gently with a view to long term joint and mental health, so that the horse is usable into it's 20s or beyond. That I have no problem with anymore than I am against greyhound racing when done correctly. The problem is when it becomes a business.


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## kitten_Val

bubba13 said:


> Even pushing a horse physically or mentally....not mega-hard, but beyond sensible limits. Do we think that we are not guilty of these things, or do we not see them as a problem?
> 
> How do you draw the line at "what hurts the horse?" What causes some discomfort? Pain? Bruises? Makes him bleed?


That's exactly the problem. What abuse for one is not for other. "Bits/no bits" threads would be a good example, also spurs, whips, I'm not talking even about disciplining a horse. Also what one horse can take mentally (or physically), other can't. Plus we can be talking about different countries/cultures. Etc. Heck, I was called abusive for keeping horses in stalls in rain/mud. :? That's exactly a reason why one can't always judge situation by just one look (say, you see the malnourished horse in pasture.... abuse, right? but then how do you know the owner didn't just pull it off the auction? etc...). And yes, pain, bleed, etc. ARE the signs of abuse to me. 

P.S. BTW, I'm very far from being naive... :wink:


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## ~*~anebel~*~

Doe, this video:






 Explains your viewpoints on dressage perfectly.

I prefer not to get in discussions of this nature as I train in sport, quite hard, and compete out of necessity for requirements to get into training camps and symposiums and things. I know many other people in my sport as such and resent anyone who feels the need to trash professionals as individuals or their sport as a whole because they go to a horse show and do well. I fail to understand why it is so hard for people to comprehend that 98% of people in a sport are truly there for enjoyment and the welfare of the horse and not for the ribbons. Robert dover does not allow you a whip when you start riding with him. Christoph hess makes you hold onto the buckle of your reins and steer in a serpentine if you are not riding with independent hands, etc... the industry examples go on. Unless you have experienced the tip top of any sport, don't judge it. My horse is 8 and I routinely get told by the team coach and other respected members of the dressage community I tide with not to push certain things beyond a point because he is a young horse. Because 8 is young and dressage people realize that. We have "developing horse" classes up to 9 years old and age restrictions on levels for how young the horse can be. 
Some people in dressage are brutal, yes. But as spyder said they are the minority now and more and more the people with humane and patient methods are winning and being rewarded for their good methods.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TheLovedOne

Anebel,
I don't agree that 98% are there for enjoyment and/or the welfare of the horse. I know all the people locally that have competed internationally (and won) and I see a lot of infighting and politics. The fact that the horses are present is almost secondary they are just a means to the end. But really I couldn't give you a statistic especially without an actual study or at least a survey. I mean really how can you. It would have been really nice if the whole sport of dressage would have banned rollkur a long time ago. But no there wasn't even agreement on that topic. Rollkur is not part of classical dressage it is part of modern dressage and that is just one of the methods that is controversial BTW.

Furthermore, just because it is hard to identify what constitutes abuse doesn't mean that we can't start classifying some "methods" as unacceptable. That is the only way the community will progress and raise their own image which at the moment is not in a very positive light. It would be great if people that are involved in the sports actually championed the change instead of getting all defensive etc. It is up to you guys to change popular opinion and I think that getting upset and your noses out of joint at even the slightest mention is doing nothing to further your cause. Because you see you do need people to be interested and involved in order for the shows to continue... right. I know that just a couple of years ago we had tons of shows locally and now I think only two are actually going to happen and well maybe the turnout will be so poor even those will get cancelled.


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## Doe

> Furthermore, just because it is hard to identify what constitutes abuse doesn't mean that we can't start classifying some "methods" as unacceptable. That is the only way the community will progress and raise their own image which at the moment is not in a very positive light. It would be great if people that are involved in the sports actually championed the change instead of getting all defensive etc. It is up to you guys to change popular opinion and I think that getting upset and your noses out of joint at even the slightest mention is doing nothing to further your cause. Because you see you do need people to be interested and involved in order for the shows to continue... right. I know that just a couple of years ago we had tons of shows locally and now I think only two are actually going to happen and well maybe the turnout will be so poor even those will get cancelled.


Very True.

Anebel I do not want to get into an argument with you. I want discussion. If you do not like to discuss these matters as you say in your post, then why post? I have not even raised any Dressage issues in this thread, so your sarcastic post is unwarranted. In fact this thread is entitle instant gratification, which is exactly why we are discussing horses being pushed so hard at ages as young as 2 years of age for professional reining, and not Dressage.

Now can we please return to constructive discussion. As TLO says there is no reason why we cannot classify what is unacceptable. Would you rather turn a blind eye? Constructive discussion is the way to develop understanding, protect the horses and protect the future of the sport you love so dearly.


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## ~*~anebel~*~

Rolkur is from baucher. Baucher is considered by those who separate dressage in such a way to be "classical".

As I have said. Experience the top of the sport and then judge. I and those I know in the dressage community do not condone fast or abusive methods so the undertone that sport is evil is what is aggravating me. Action is how one protects welfare of the horse and the sport and through my action and where I choose to spend my money is what is cleaning up sport, not what I say on a BB.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bubba13

While acknowledging my own gross ignorance of the higher levels of dressage, I seem to recall quite a bit of controversy about someone named Anky, and a quick Google search turned up this: http://dareensafi.blog.com/2010/11/20/rollkur-and-anky-van-grunsven/

And to clarify, I DO NOT KNOW THE LEGITIMACY OF THIS VIDEO. Not posting it to start a fight, but rather as food for thought:


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## Doe

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Rolkur is from baucher. Baucher is considered by those who separate dressage in such a way to be "classical".
> 
> As I have said. Experience the top of the sport and then judge. I and those I know in the dressage community do not condone fast or abusive methods so the undertone that sport is evil is what is aggravating me. Action is how one protects welfare of the horse and the sport and through my action and where I choose to spend my money is what is cleaning up sport, not what I say on a BB.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Anebel to attribute the modern debate around rollkur to Baucher is to be rather generalist as they are not based on the same biomechanical foundation. That aside i am not defending Baucher just stating that the two things are not the same. I am quite happy to discuss this in as much detail as you like but May I suggest a separate thread so as to not muddy this one?

Also please qualify what you mean by 'experience' and do not be so arrogant as to assume you are the only one with sufficient knowledge and experience to make an educated judgement.


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## Beling

The Champion, The Top, The BEST-- these are important not only in prestige, but because they set our goals, they make the picture we want to be. With modern technology filling our imaginations with WINNERS, it's hard not to want to get "there" as fast as we can. It's hard sometimes, when your legs are tired, and your horse uninterested, to feel any connection between the roundness of your stupid 20-meter circle and Ravel's pirouettes, or a barrel racer's winning ride.

And if a little thing like rollkur will help. . . okay, I'll be the first to admit, I DO ask my own horse, who has a long, thin neck (which is somewhat thin, to me very elegant and beautiful, but hardly like the modern dressage horse) to come down, and, in fact, "roll up", to increase her suppleness and test submission. It's just one of many flexing exercises, and we only do it for seconds at a time, and neither of us finds it difficult, or offensive. Yet I am, in fact, violently against the sort of extended rollkur I've seen on YouTube (and elsewhere), which seems more to be done by those very important Champions. 

My point being: I think a lot of the problem is in the lap of the winners, and whoever puts them there.


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## ~*~anebel~*~

I'm not going to get into a who's who argument but you have admitted in other threads that you have limited knowledge if dressage. Although I have not ridden internationally I do get invited to ride with my countries team coach monthly and my regular coach has competed in international championships including the Olympics for a span of over 20 years.

So, having been around the "big tour" behind the scenes for a number of years and having been coached by a few olympians and Olympic judges I'd say I have a better clue than someone who watched Edward gal's triple gold medal weg on YouTube.

To both bubba and Doe the rolkur thing has been beat to a bloody pulp on this forum and others. Google it and form your own opinion from previous discussions. I have mine based on actual experience and if anyone wants to hear it I'd be happy to pm them. Beyond that I'm really done with defending a sport that for the large majority is not abusive to those who are convinced by YouTube videos that it is. Bad trainers are bad trainers regardless of how they label themselves and to actually do dressage and do well one needs to partner well with the horse and take their time in the training.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bubba13

Wow, nothing like being overly defensive and entirely missing the point...


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## ~*~anebel~*~

bubba13 said:


> Wow, nothing like being overly defensive and entirely missing the point...


Most of that was not aimed at you, sorry I should have been more clear.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Doe

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> I'm not going to get into a who's who argument but you have admitted in other threads that you have limited knowledge if dressage. Although I have not ridden internationally I do get invited to ride with my countries team coach monthly and my regular coach has competed in international championships including the Olympics for a span of over 20 years.
> 
> So, having been around the "big tour" behind the scenes for a number of years and having been coached by a few olympians and Olympic judges I'd say I have a better clue than someone who watched Edward gal's triple gold medal weg on YouTube.
> 
> To both bubba and Doe the rolkur thing has been beat to a bloody pulp on this forum and others. Google it and form your own opinion from previous discussions. I have mine based on actual experience and if anyone wants to hear it I'd be happy to pm them. Beyond that I'm really done with defending a sport that for the large majority is not abusive to those who are convinced by YouTube videos that it is. Bad trainers are bad trainers regardless of how they label themselves and to actually do dressage and do well one needs to partner well with the horse and take their time in the training.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Anebel I suggest you re-read my posts. As I said earlier in this very thread I ONLY comment where I feel I have sufficient experience and breadth of knowledge. That is why I feel able to discuss dressage and reining, and not show jumping or barrel racing.


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## TheLovedOne

Couldn't disagree with you more Anebel. If you are referring to me not having enough "experience" in your claimed domain then I feel it necessary to correct you. I have quite a bit of experience in dressage competition but I must tell you that I didn't stop because of the abuse. I just found it extremely boring. Everyone that I know finds it boring. I still ride it at home to Prix St George level and I have two warmbloods one of whom is a branded premium oldenburg who has had several brothers compete successfully at Spruce Meadows and one that went to the Olympics. Like I said I know all the top people here locally and they are actually very nice people. I ride dressage and I never never feel the way you do when people talk about things like rollkur. Sure I disagree with it and I do not think your reference to Baucher makes it classical. I guess that is contentious also. But in the end big fluffy deal. If you have a horse that looks limp and lifeless going about the arena you will never win were it matters anyways.


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## kitten_Val

Folks, Anky was beat up a lot by lots of people all over the Internet (including this forum). And even though it's quite deserved IMHO wouldn't be enough? She's brought up as an only argument in almost every discussion about "cruelty" of dressage. Should we start naming people in cutting? Barrel racing? My understanding was the purpose of this thread is somewhat different. So lets all calm down a bit, not go into extreme, and respect each other opinion!


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## bubba13

Anky's not the only one, just the one who's name jumped to mind because I've heard it so often. I remember another one fairly recently with a male rider at the professional level, leaving in disgrace after being caught performing rollkur techniques....I'm sure there are many others as well. I've certainly seen many videos (and oh no, here's that judgmental, incapable-of-interpreting-equine-body-language side of me coming out) of high level dressage demos or competitions, where the horse looked at worst miserable and at best agitated and tense. But don't think I'm singling out dressage, 'cause I'm not--it just happens to be the current discipline in the spotlight for this thread.

MY point is simply that there is excessive, abusive, painful, detrimental, cruel, harmful, unnecessary, [insert adjective] at every level of showing, in nearly every discipline, on a very widespread scale, and present practically everywhere. It's far from some tiny, insignificant, shunned minority. It's not the industry's "dark little secret." It's blatant, in-your-face obvious at every event you go to. If you choose to see, that is.


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## TheLovedOne

I agree bubba. You and your horse suffered as a result and that is just not OK. I guess if people that are involved don't step forward and things start changing the movement against showing will grow. I say boycott!


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## Spyder

kitten_Val said:


> What do you mean, TLO? Like paying police or animal rights just to report it? That sounds really weird to me!


Kitten.

TLO was not 100% clear but just used the generalization of something to make it sound worse.

Yes you may pay a fee to report but it is something to ensure that the person that levels the charges " puts their money where their mouth is". If you have a legitimate complaint you will pay a fee. I believe it is refunded if the charge is founded in fact and lose it if it turns out to be unsubstantiated.

To Bubba

I find it interesting that you started this thread for there was a thread a bit ago about your horse and looking at it and the way it was ridden you are not far off the "harsh" mark from those ( the industry) you accuse in this thread.


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## TheLovedOne

Sorry Kitten I didn't see your question - yes shows make you pay a fee to report abuse. I did think it was clear enough but thank you for insulting me Syder in your special way. I love it yes TLO just tries to make things sound worse but it is actually true - thanks again. That is so rude. IMO it is weird and discourages people from reporting. Event organizers could actually just verify people's identity to make sure they are not frivolous claims. Charging a fee is completely unnecessary and makes one question the motivation.

To defend Bubba she openly admits that she abused her horse so what's your point Sypda.


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## nrhareiner

Doe said:


> Dear Marecare
> 
> 
> I understand that there are many ways to start a horse. I too would definitely get a horse used to a saddle etc as soon as possible. I understand and accept that there are many who care and do things differently. That does not change the fact that I believe that training a horse for reining at 2 years of age is damaging to it's wellbeing. That is due to the sheer amount of saddle time required and the stresses placed upon a skeletal frame that is not yet matured.


See this is where you lose it for me from what you are saying. First a horse does not start reining at 2. They start learning to move their body balance a rider walk and trot at a constant pace and so on. By the time they actually start reining they are 3 well fit horses who have learned to balance themselves and their riders. Well and correctly started 2yo be it for reining or what ever will have little to ill effect.


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## TheLovedOne

So then how old are horses in the futurities? I thought they were all two year olds that are doing reining...? I'm not a reiner Reiner.. ha but the people here (yes they are bad as you conjectured before) all start them before they are two. In fact, 18 months and some guy is on them with spurs.


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## Spyder

TheLovedOne said:


> So then how old are horses in the futurities? I thought they were all two year olds that are doing reining...? I'm not a reiner Reiner.. ha but the people here (yes they are bad as you conjectured before) all start them before they are two. In fact, 18 months and some guy is on them with spurs.


And don't forget about all those poor racehorses...


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## nrhareiner

Doe said:


> This is why reining and dressage tend to be my focus simply because I feel the body of evidence is significant.



You say this but where did your body of experience come from? Watching a few shows or have you actually competed at a high level?


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## nrhareiner

Doe said:


> The overwhelming body of equine medical evidence clearly demonstrates that executing slide stops, spins and roll backs at 2-3 years of age is physically painful and permanently and irreparably damaging to the horse. If this is not the case then why are they retired when they have only just reached physical maturity?


Would love to see those studies. Been reining for a long time. Have many many horses who where started at 3 and shown for quite few years. Some are still showing as they are geldings. The horses who I and friends have retired is not b/c they could not still comet but b/c they are more valuable as breeding stock.


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## nrhareiner

TheLovedOne said:


> So then how old are horses in the futurities? I thought they were all two year olds that are doing reining...? I'm not a reiner Reiner.. ha but the people here (yes they are bad as you conjectured before) all start them before they are two. In fact, 18 months and some guy is on them with spurs.



The NRHA futurity is at the end of their 3yo year. The Futurity starts the day before Thanksgiving and runs through the first week of Dec. So these horses are almost 4 by the time they are being shown. There are no futurities before August in most cases.

Also yes a lot of reining trainers do start the horse early in their 2yo year. Yes some even a tad earlier. However go and watch them ride those horses. Most are only been worked for about 10 maybe 15 min tops. Never out of the walk the horse might trot if it feels like it but it will be stopped and taken back down to the walk. 

This argument has been going on for many years with in the reining industry. When to start a young horse. Most of your top trainers and the better ones who have a proven track record of having sound horses well into their 20's have found that starting the horse very early in their 2yo year is beneficial do to the fact that you can take it slower with the horse. The horse get well fit and learns to balance the rider and have a very very solid foundation before they are asked to move up. So by the time they are asked to do sliding stops and such they are very well legged up have the muscling to do so and have the balance to do it correctly.


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## Spyder

nrhareiner said:


> You say this but where did your body of experience come from? Watching a few shows or have you actually competed at a high level?


Doe already admitted on the other thread that all he watched was a few shows...ALL his experience is based on observation and very very little interaction so I discount ANYTHING that comes from this member as has having no credibility.


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## bubba13

Spyder said:


> To Bubba
> 
> I find it interesting that you started this thread for there was a thread a bit ago about your horse and looking at it and the way it was ridden you are not far off the "harsh" mark from those ( the industry) you accuse in this thread.


What I find interesting--and ironic--is how irrelevant this is to the thread. Perhaps a clever derailment technique, yet I'll oblige and address it.

Regarding the infamous video, for eff's sake, as has been posted ad nauseum: It was a deliberate mockery of the bad riding seen in backyard TWH racking demos. Everyone interpreted it as a legitimate expression of my riding capabilities (in all fairness, because of the way I presented it) yet besides being appalled at how ugly it all was no one could come up with any concrete examples of how it was "abusive." The "you're hurting the horse" comments were ridiculous, as I was deliberately sitting in a manner that minimizes concussion on the horse's back (yes, it looked awful, but ugly =/= harmful). The "you have heavy hands" comments may have been based on what was visible in the video, yet I can assure you that I was doing no more than hold the horse at steady pressure. Had I been pulling back hard or snatching her in the face, she would have been jerking her head far more violently than she actually was, or she would have taken it as a cue to stop/slow and done just that. The only hand-jerking in the video comes from the hand _not_ holding the reins, while the other hand supports the horse in the bit without excessive pressure or pain. If that is not clear, well, I'm sorry, but is 100% the truth. So it may be bad riding, or ugly riding, or any other charge you can level except harsh or abusive.

On the other hand, I never even exempted myself from the list of the guilty in the previous posts. I rather clearly recall saying that we're practically _all_ at fault. And like TLO said, and I admitted, I've done things I'm not proud of in the past. This video does not fall into that category.

But even at that--even if I was tearing the horse's face off and was the meanest rider around--that does not in any way negate the legitimacy and accuracy of the statements I made regarding the horse industry as a whole. Don't attack the messenger.


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## kitten_Val

Oh, I see.. So you pay at the SHOWS if you report. I was quite confused because I thought you pay if you report to police or AC (never seen it happened here in MD). I have to say it sounds very weird too to me...

And just a reminder... Please, keep it civil, All. So far its been quite interesting conversation information-wise (BTW, cutting futurity is also 3 yo from what I remember). Personally I didn't start anything serious till last year when my mares turned 6 (then I started dressage lessons and little bit of jumping).


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## Spyder

bubba13 said:


> What I find interesting--and ironic--is how irrelevant this is to the thread. Perhaps a clever derailment technique, yet I'll oblige and address it.
> 
> Had I been pulling back hard or snatching her in the face, she would have been jerking her head far more violently than she actually was, or she would have taken it as a cue to stop/slow and done just that. The only hand-jerking in the video comes from the hand _not_ holding the reins, while the other hand supports the horse in the bit without excessive pressure or pain. If that is not clear, well, I'm sorry, but is 100% the truth. So it may be bad riding, or ugly riding, or any other charge you can level except harsh or abusive.
> 
> On the other hand, I never even exempted myself from the list of the guilty in the previous posts. I rather clearly recall saying that we're practically _all_ at fault. And like TLO said, and I admitted, I've done things I'm not proud of in the past. This video does not fall into that category.
> 
> But even at that--even if I was tearing the horse's face off and was the meanest rider around--that does not in any way negate the legitimacy and accuracy of the statements I made regarding the horse industry as a whole. Don't attack the messenger.



I find it interesting that you will look at something posted on another site or any site ( thread or video) and be willing to rip them for that "moment in time", yet you present excuses for doing much the same.

Since you also stated that _excessive, abusive, painful, detrimental, cruel, harmful, is present practically everywhere_ I find it very relevant to this thread/topic.

If you are going to "expose" this injustice then we all need to start at home.


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## bubba13

kitten_Val said:


> And just a reminder... Please, keep it civil, All. So far its been quite interesting conversation information-wise (BTW, cutting futurity is also 3 yo from what I remember). Personally I didn't start anything serious till last year when my mares turned 6 (then I started dressage lessons and little bit of jumping).


Barrel horse futurities start at three, too. Western Pleasure is one that I know has competitions in the two-year-old year. That's not as physically demanding as, say, reining or cutting, but it's still young to be carrying a (sometimes quite heavy) rider's weight, and moving in those labored gaits, and have had a lot of mental pressure put on in regards to proper movement and body carriage and complete obedience and so on. And then there was this: Shame in the Horse Show Ring: Reichert Celebration...er Free For All
(Obligatory disclaimer: In am not endorsing this blogger, nor necessarily agreeing with all of her content, opinions, or delivery, nor am I attempting to demonize the WP discipline as a whole.)



Spyder said:


> I find it interesting that you will look at something posted on another site or any site ( thread or video) and be willing to rip them for that "moment in time", yet you present excuses for doing much the same.
> 
> Since you also stated that _excessive, abusive, painful, detrimental, cruel, harmful, is present practically everywhere_ I find it very relevant to this thread/topic.
> 
> If you are going to "expose" this injustice then we all need to start at home.


For the last part, uh, that was kind of my point all along. 

For the first part, since you are also very much guilty as charged on said forum...a'yup.


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## Spyder

bubba13 said:


> For the last part, uh, that was kind of my point all along.
> 
> For the first part, since you are also very much guilty as charged on said forum...a'yup.



I make comments on many threads on many sites. 

My point is that to make excuses for one's own bad riding yet be willing to call others out for the same thing pushes the credibility limit.


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## TheLovedOne

You don't even have your own horses - do you Spyder. What do you really know. You almost never add anything to any discussion you just like to criticize other for not sharing your values whatever they are. You know nothing about the racing industry, you don't have your own horses, you don't have a farm I'm thinking it is you that has no credibility.


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## Spyder

TheLovedOne said:


> It looks to me that you love to antagonize but you don't even have your own horses - do you Spyder. What do you really know. You almost never add anything to any discussion you just like to criticize other for not sharing your values whatever they are. You know nothing about the racing industry, you don't have your own horses, you don't have a farm I'm thinking it is you that has no credibility.



You know what they say about making assumptions...


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## AlexS

bubba13 said:


> MY point is simply that there is excessive, abusive, painful, detrimental, cruel, harmful, unnecessary, [insert adjective] at every level of showing, in nearly every discipline, on a very widespread scale, and present practically everywhere. It's far from some tiny, insignificant, shunned minority. It's not the industry's "dark little secret." It's blatant, in-your-face obvious at every event you go to. If you choose to see, that is.


Absolutely agree with this statement Bubba. Anky is the pits and is thought of as being so by a great many dressage riders who do not feel that her goals are worth it. We could all do that, if we had no morals. We chose not to. (Not that I am at her level, obviously, not close to it)


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## Doe

Let me open with a recent quote from Bill Collins of AQHA Hall of Fame standing, who said of futurities 

*“There’s the odd horse that can take it. The very odd one… but the (majority of) them can’t do it. This three-year-old (futurity) has ruined more good horses, makings of good horses, than we’ve got in this*country.”*

As it has been invited I look forward to discussing the physical damage caused by the biomechanical demands placed on these horses at such a young age. I am currently off to work, so will post later tonight information provided by amongst others Stashak, Clinton and Jackman, all expert veterinary surgeons with great experience in these fields.

PS just wanted to add that Bubba i think it is very brave and honourable of you to offer your own experience and horsemanship journey in this thread. Few people are willing to be so honest.


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## Spyder

tinyliny said:


> Would somebody remind me what the original point of this thread was?


I believe it has something to do with the OP not liking the abuse they see from some random pictures and that we should be voicing our outrage at all the abuse that is rampant at the 98% level everywhere in the horse world.


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## Speed Racer

TheLovedOne said:


> You don't even have your own horses - do you Spyder. What do you really know. You almost never add anything to any discussion you just like to criticize other for not sharing your values whatever they are. You know nothing about the racing industry, you don't have your own horses, you don't have a farm I'm thinking it is you that has no credibility.


Actually TLO, Spyder_ does_ have horses and I've found much of her advice to be spot on over the years.

From what I can gather she's never been in the racing industry, but there's plenty of picture proof that she does or at least did ride, and went to a fairly high level in dressage.

I think Bubba makes some excellent points too, and I admire her for posting her own pictures for discussion. 

I consider both both Bubba and Spyder to be the real deal. Whether or not they get along is another matter entirely.


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## nrhareiner

Doe said:


> Let me open with a recent quote from Bill Collins of AQHA Hall of Fame standing, who said of futurities
> 
> *“There’s the odd horse that can take it. The very odd one… but the (majority of) them can’t do it. This three-year-old (futurity) has ruined more good horses, makings of good horses, than we’ve got in this*country.”*
> 
> As it has been invited I look forward to discussing the physical damage caused by the biomechanical demands placed on these horses at such a young age. I am currently off to work, so will post later tonight information provided by amongst others Stashak, Clinton and Jackman, all expert veterinary surgeons with great experience in these fields.
> 
> PS just wanted to add that Bubba i think it is very brave and honourable of you to offer your own experience and horsemanship journey in this thread. Few people are willing to be so honest.



While you are at is I will remind you of my other question. YOUR EXPERIENCE in the area in which you clam to have.

Also for every one horse who does not make the cut and is injured I can show you reason why from breeding to poor maintenance to many other reason and I can also show you 10 who are still sound and working and showing into their 20's.

Any and ever equine sport is demanding. You have to know what those demands are and how to minimize those issues. Been doing this a long time.


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## Spyder

Speed Racer said:


> From what I can gather she's never been in the racing industry,



Actually I have some limited knowledge of this industry.

I had a friend that was a owner/trainer at the track, helped them get the young horses ready before shipping to the track and worked in the at the track as a hot walker for a limited time.

I try to be as diversified as possible in many areas and find I can take something positive from each experience to add to my experience.


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## bubba13

Spyder said:


> I believe it has something to do with the OP not liking the abuse they see from some random pictures and that we should be voicing our outrage at all the abuse that is rampant at the 98% level everywhere in the horse world.


And that is where you would be wrong, particularly since the random pictures didn't factor in 'til page 3.

You might want to re-read the thread (to note time and place of derailment, if you wish) and my posts in it (this time with a little more careful attention to my point) or if you'd prefer I'll just reiterate.

1. People--particularly those who compete, but not even necessarily those, and anyone who so much as has a backyard trail horse can be guilty--want instant gratification and fast results. So they take shortcuts, generally to the horse's detriment, and then get mad when it doesn't turn out the way they had hoped. I'd like to blame the age of technology on a lot of this, though I'm sure there are many additional factors at play. If we would just slow down, both we and our horses would likely be better off in the long run.

2. On the same token, and generally more specifically in the realm of competition (with exceptions), we do things in the name of progress or results that maybe aren't the wisest choices. We inflict mental pressure, physical pressure, discomfort, pain....we risk joints and bones and longevity...now a lot of these things are pretty much par for the course in riding, and we accept them as unavoidable. _Maybe_ some of them are. It's an inherently unnatural sport, after all. But at what point do we draw the line of what is acceptable? When is enough, enough, or when do the ends fail to justify the means (can there be any justification for some of the photos/videos posted above)?


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## nrhareiner

While I will agree that there are those who want instant gratification those are not the ones who you see competing and winning on a regular bases. At least not in disciplines like reining and reined cow horse, I would also add cutting into that mix as well. The fact is that when you take a short cut you skimp on fundamentals. When you do that it WILL come back to bit you in the rear. Plane and simple.

I see is so many times. Heck even on this forum and others. What can I expect in 30 or 60 days. People come on and say the horse should be able to w/t/c back stop and all this stuff. To me that is way too much. What I expect in 30-60 days is a horse who walks and gives every inch of their body, Side pass and similar things. One that knows the word whoa b/c lets face it that is very very important at any level of training. I do not care if the horse is toting I do not care if it is backing although if the horse really knows whoa they are backing fairly well. I do not at all expect the horse to be loping.

This is what I see so much and that I find leads to 95% of the problems you see down the road. It has nothing to do with showing. It has everything to do with people want it fast and now.


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## PaintedFury

I think we all agree that everyone should take the time and train a horse, for whatever purpose, correctly. I also think that we can all agree that even though, everyone should do it, that not everybody does. And as such, all we can do is try to educate the people around us, and hope that they try harder to quit taking short cuts, and start doing it more completely and correctly.


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## bubba13

nrhareiner said:


> While I will agree that there are those who want instant gratification those are not the ones who you see competing and winning on a regular bases. At least not in disciplines like reining and reined cow horse, I would also add cutting into that mix as well. The fact is that when you take a short cut you skimp on fundamentals. When you do that it WILL come back to bit you in the rear. Plane and simple.


But then in reining you get things like that video from a few weeks ago that had everyone in an uproar, on both sides. Half screaming, "Abuse! Why aren't the judges doing anything?" and the other half quick to defend and say, "Come on now, he's not really hurting the horse, just training on it because it's disobeying." Which, you know, the video wasn't exactly a display of blatant animal cruelty (that's really stretching it to the PETA level) but on the other hand, if that's a Standard Training Protocol, then something is kinda messed up....especially if we see nothing at all concerning about it. There's that complacency and ambivalence again.

This blogger describes the issue far more eloquently: http://mugwumpchronicles.blogspot.com/2011/05/reining-torn-apart.html


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## kitten_Val

bubba13 said:


> People--particularly those who compete, but not even necessarily those, and anyone who so much as has a backyard trail horse can be guilty--want instant gratification and fast results. So they take shortcuts, generally to the horse's detriment, and then get mad when it doesn't turn out the way they had hoped. I'd like to blame the age of technology on a lot of this, though I'm sure there are many additional factors at play. If we would just slow down, both we and our horses would likely be better off in the long run.


Again, not everyone is looking for short cut. More people I know of do NOT go for it (including those who compete). And unfortunately those who do don't want to listen to any suggestions to slow down and put more foundation in horse. For whatever reason (always quite selfish).


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## Doe

nrhareiner said:


> While I will agree that there are those who want instant gratification those are not the ones who you see competing and winning on a regular bases. At least not in disciplines like reining and reined cow horse, I would also add cutting into that mix as well. The fact is that when you take a short cut you skimp on fundamentals. When you do that it WILL come back to bit you in the rear. Plane and simple.
> 
> This is what I see so much and that I find leads to 95% of the problems you see down the road. It has nothing to do with showing.


So how do you explain Collins comments as posted earlier? that's no amateur.......or perhaps you don't want to validate his opinion either.

Secondly - and realistically, how many horses in the professional futurities are actually owned by the trainers and how many are owned by paying customers/syndicates. I don't know in the US but I can tell you in Europe. In the last 3 years over 90% of the entered horses were owned not by the trainer but by paying customers who want a result. Some of those customers had paid for 20 horses to see 1 get to the futurity.

They don't care about the fall out rate or the longevity of the horse. Like you said, once it's had a win or two it's more valuable as a stud. It's a business. Longevity is of little concern. They have no use for 20 year old horses knocking around their barns - what would they do with them, they are space and cost. Bottom line if it doesn't pay the rent, it's dogfood.


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## nrhareiner

Doe said:


> So how do you explain Collins comments as posted earlier? that's no amateur.......or perhaps you don't want to validate his opinion either.
> 
> *This was one of the reasons why there was a discussion several years ago about changing the age. The end results was that the only thing it would change is to give the trainers more time to get the horse really broke. It would not change when the horse was started. What they did was add one more year to the Derby and that put them to the age that they could show internationally.*
> 
> Secondly - and realistically, how many horses in the professional futurities are actually owned by the trainers and how many are owned by paying customers/syndicates. I don't know in the US but I can tell you in Europe. In the last 3 years over 90% of the entered horses were owned not by the trainer but by paying customers who want a result. Some of those customers had paid for 20 horses to see 1 get to the futurity.
> 
> *The cost of training to get the horse ready to show is substantial. So no these horses are treated and trained well. When I spend that kind of money to get a horse ready for the aged events you better be certain that the trainer knows that I will not except certain things and I have found this to be true of more owners. If as an owner you are not involved then you get what you get. That is your fault. Not the trainers or anyone else. I set the rules that my trainer plays buy and doing so I have had very good success and I have horses here in my barn who are in their 20's and still will vet clean.*
> 
> They don't care about the fall out rate or the longevity of the horse. Like you said, once it's had a win or two it's more valuable as a stud. It's a business. Longevity is of little concern. They have no use for 20 year old horses knocking around their barns - what would they do with them, they are space and cost. Bottom line if it doesn't pay the rent, it's dogfood.


This is where you are very very wrong. They (owners) very much care about the fall out rate. What you say is a fall out rate I call culling. This has nothing to do with the horse being sound or injured but just comes down to the fact that they do not have what it takes to be an open aged event horse. I would suspect that out side the US it is quite hard to find a really good reining prospect. The stock is just not there yet. A horse who an owner has put over $50K into training on, they want that horse to retire sound. I know I do and I know every other owner that I know wants the exact same thing.

Also what about all the geldings out there? What about the mares who are not breeding quality? Those are what we in reining call non pro horses and youth horses. If you go to an NRHA Affiliate show you will find more horses into the teens and 20s still showing every weekend. Still going strong and still sound. My mares full brother is one of them. So yes if you go to any trainers barn who has a large non pro and youth client list you will find quite a few older horses. They use them as lesson horses and new clients will then take those horses and show them in the green reiner classes. These horses are worth their weight in gold. So there is a lot of emphasis on keeping these horses sound. Also most of the breeding horses especially stallions are pulled out of retirement over the years and will go back into showing at the international level. Some never stop showing.


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## kitten_Val

Doe, are the western disciplines widely known/shown in Europe? OT, but I'm just curious...


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## nrhareiner

bubba13 said:


> But then in reining you get things like that video from a few weeks ago that had everyone in an uproar, on both sides. Half screaming, "Abuse! Why aren't the judges doing anything?" and the other half quick to defend and say, "Come on now, he's not really hurting the horse, just training on it because it's disobeying." Which, you know, the video wasn't exactly a display of blatant animal cruelty (that's really stretching it to the PETA level) but on the other hand, if that's a Standard Training Protocol, then something is kinda messed up....especially if we see nothing at all concerning about it. There's that complacency and ambivalence again.
> 
> This blogger describes the issue far more eloquently: http://mugwumpchronicles.blogspot.com/2011/05/reining-torn-apart.html


I am not saying that there are no bad apples with in the reining industry. If there was non then you would not see the people on the suspended persons list each month in the reiner. There is and it happens. Sometimes it is simple a snapshot in time sometimes it is more of an on going thing. These are horses and some times they get a hair up their rear at the worst time and it has to be fixed and fixed now. Sometimes the only place to fix the problem is at the show b/c the horse does not do it at home. Been there. I know.


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## Doe

kitten_Val said:


> Doe, are the western disciplines widely known/shown in Europe? OT, but I'm just curious...


I have a personal family matter to deal with this evening so just a quick post from my ipad to say NHR thank you for your replies, I am genuinely interested in your perspective and experience. As I have always said, discussion from all sides is what I seek and you have raised a number of questions for consideration.

Kitten Val - Europe is I'm sure a small Market compared to the US. However, it is increasing rapidly, and the German Market for reining is huge compared to the rest. Michael Schumacher built a ranch after retiring from F1 and was considering going pro. (along with his motorbike racing) He bought a lot of horses from the Sternberg sisters who own Bodium in the Uk and also Sterling ranch in Texas, as well as both being on the UK team. (my own horse is from One of their stallions) Michaels wife has hosted the after show party for Bodium ( the garden of England show) before now. So you get an idea that it's possibly got less grass roots accessibility than perhaps in the US say. In Europe it's definitely a sport for the 'better off' with little way to access it if you aren't flush.


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## kitten_Val

Doe said:


> Kitten Val - Europe is I'm sure a small Market compared to the US. However, it is increasing rapidly, and the German Market for reining is huge compared to the rest. Michael Schumacher built a ranch after retiring from F1 and was considering going pro. (along with his motorbike racing) He bought a lot of horses from the Sternberg sisters who own Bodium in the Uk and also Sterling ranch in Texas, as well as both being on the UK team. (my own horse is from One of their stallions) Michaels wife has hosted the after show party for Bodium ( the garden of England show) before now. So you get an idea that it's possibly got less grass roots accessibility than perhaps in the US say. In Europe it's definitely a sport for the 'better off' with little way to access it if you aren't flush.


Very interesting!


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## bubba13

Wait--I just noticed...why and when did this thread get moved to Horse Protection? I clearly started it in Training, as I feel it is a training issue. It's not an ASPCA or a HSUS or a PETA thing, but an industry standard...that could be where some of the misinterpretation of subject matter is coming from...


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## nrhareiner

Germany is a growing reining market. My mares full brother was sold to a person in Germany. Europe as whole is a growing market for reining. If they continue to import some more good horses and get some good breeding programs going it will continue to grow.


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## Spyder

Doe said:


> They don't care about the fall out rate or the longevity of the horse. Like you said, once it's had a win or two it's more valuable as a stud. It's a business. Longevity is of little concern. They have no use for 20 year old horses knocking around their barns - what would they do with them, they are space and cost. Bottom line if it doesn't pay the rent, it's dogfood.


Geee I will have to ask my 19 year old stud how he feels.

But I don't have to for put a jump in front of him and too bad if you don't stay on...he is going over it. Interesting that he is completely clean legged, with no soreness and completely vital and still ready to have the ladies line up for him.

He even looks like a 8 year old.

Your stallion argument does not wash for a good stallion is just that...too good to be pushed into anything that would harm him. Mine is retired and no I get no income from him.


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## Doe

Spyder said:


> Geee I will have to ask my 19 year old stud how he feels.
> 
> But I don't have to for put a jump in front of him and too bad if you don't stay on...he is going over it. Interesting that he is completely clean legged, with no soreness and completely vital and still ready to have the ladies line up for him.
> 
> He even looks like a 8 year old.
> 
> Your stallion argument does not wash for a good stallion is just that...too good to be pushed into anything that would harm him. Mine is retired and no I get no income from him.


Spyder i think you've totally missed the point.


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## Mike_User

bubba13 said:


> Wait--I just noticed...why and when did this thread get moved to Horse Protection? I clearly started it in Training, as I feel it is a training issue. It's not an ASPCA or a HSUS or a PETA thing, but an industry standard...that could be where some of the misinterpretation of subject matter is coming from...


Hi bubba13, 

I moved this thread to the Horse Protection forum since, while it relates to training, it is not about how to apply any particular training technique, how to correct a behavior, an account of any horse's progress, etc., but is instead a thread essentially advocating protecting horses from harsh or damaging training techniques applied in the interest of competition. Our Horse Protection forum is not reserved for ASPCA, HSUS, or PETA related threads, but is instead meant for threads who's general themes are protecting horses, horse abuse, etc.


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