# Appy color help!



## TexanFreedom (Apr 2, 2012)

Appy loves to screw with the base color. Best idea is to test him. As far as the pattern, he looks fewspot- which is homozygous. I believe 'spotless' appys (fewspot, snowcap) are homozygous. 

My guess on base color is brown.


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

No way to know without testing ..

*sigh*

I love a varnish roan...


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## Drifting (Oct 26, 2011)

I agree he looks fewspot, black base to me and the brown is just the brilliant sun-fade that ruins most black appy coats. It's hard to tell though without knowing what he looked like when he was born, if he was more solid then he just roaned/varnished out.


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

He doesn't look fewspot to me. The varnish marks on his shoulders, hips, flanks, withers indicate that he was solid there at one time. He was most likely either solid or had a small snowcap blanket.

IMO


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## TexanFreedom (Apr 2, 2012)

I have seen quite a few fewspots and snowcaps that show this 'roaning'. 

So what exactly is varnish? 
Blanket appaloosa is hetero PATN? and snowcap is homozygous for the same PATN gene? 
And leopard appaloosa is Heterozygous for the other PATN gene, and fewspot is homozygous for the same gene... but what does that make 'varnish roan'? 
Maybe someone can shed some light on this, I may have it all wrong.\

Could it be possible he has some sort of pinto gene that is causing the roaning?


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

He is a VERY classic varnish roan. 

The only place a true fewspot will have varnish is where there was solid color to begin with. The white on a fewspot is white .. there from birth .. with pink skin .. and does not change or varnish.


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## grayshell38 (Mar 9, 2009)

TexanFreedom said:


> I have seen quite a few fewspots and snowcaps that show this 'roaning'.
> 
> So what exactly is varnish?
> Blanket appaloosa is hetero PATN? and snowcap is homozygous for the same PATN gene?
> ...


 
You mean like rabicano or sabino? He is a registered appy from (what I am told. Don't know much about appys) 'old' breeding, so not really a chance for a cross with a pinto in his lineage.


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## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

i would vote him as a snocap. No way to be 100% certain without knowing what his parents looked like and what color he was as a foal. does he have striped hooves? if he is a snocap or fewspot they will NOT be striped... thats a sign of a 100% color producer. 

as far as color. I'd say he is a black base (bay or black) appys can come in tri colors.. meaning they show both black and brown coloration.. usually a sign they are black carrier Ee and not EE


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## TexanFreedom (Apr 2, 2012)

Yes, but, even regestered appys can have sabino, without being crossed to a paint or other color-producing breed. Rabicano is not a pinto gene. 








This guy has some sort of pinto gene, but is only registered as an appaloosa. 
From the site: 
Heterozygous sabino. Here is a possible homozygous Lp gene (spotted) young ApHC stallion, however he is pictured here to display the typical sabino markings that are often present in other color breeds. Note the typical white lips & chin, and 4 (somewhat jagged) socks.
Johnson Show Horses, Appaloosa breeders in Staples *MN*. PT Cruiser received his ROM in halter with limited showing. He will stand to a limited number of mares; it will depend on his training schedule. Breeding Fee: Private Treaty. No shipped semen.


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

TF .. a sabino gene didn't cause the color on the OPs horse. He is VERY classic varnish roan. He could have had a snocap blanket .. but he is a varnish roan.


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## grayshell38 (Mar 9, 2009)

GhostwindAppaloosa said:


> i would vote him as a snocap. No way to be 100% certain without knowing what his parents looked like and what color he was as a foal. does he have striped hooves? if he is a snocap or fewspot they will NOT be striped... thats a sign of a 100% color producer.
> 
> as far as color. I'd say he is a black base (bay or black) appys can come in tri colors.. meaning they show both black and brown coloration.. usually a sign they are black carrier Ee and not EE


 
Interesting! No, his hooves are not striped. And someone else mentioned that there is the potential for a greater issue of eye or health problems with some of the colors being heterozygous. He does happen to have ERU (moon blindness) and he's only 16. 

I am doing some digging. He was bred not far from me and was a stud until he was five. I know that he has some foals on the ground from then.
So I will hopefully get some backround info on him as far as breeding and color go. I have to dig up his papers for dam and sire info, but his registered name is Blaze n bright socks, for what it's worth. 

Appy genes are fun!


TF I know that rabicano is not a pinto gene, but it is a "roaning" gene. Figured that it may be relevent. I may have to convince BO that she NEEDS to know what color he is and have him tested.


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## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

grayshell38 said:


> Interesting! No, his hooves are not striped. And someone else mentioned that there is the potential for a greater issue of eye or health problems with some of the colors being heterozygous. He does happen to have ERU (moon blindness) and he's only 16.
> 
> I am doing some digging. He was bred not far from me and was a stud until he was five. I know that he has some foals on the ground from then.
> So I will hopefully get some backround info on him as far as breeding and color go. I have to dig up his papers for dam and sire info, but his registered name is Blaze n bright socks, for what it's worth.
> ...


Well genetically he is homozygous LP/LP
and im nearly 100% sure he is a snocap. 

Inheritance Information for Appaloosa-specific CSNB - Appaloosa coat patterns, coat colour genetics and practical information for breeders of spotted horses - The Appaloosa Project


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

My varnish roan filly (born solid and looked just like this gelding by 3 years) had moon blindness. She was helpless after dark .. lol. I had to "rescue" her more than once when she got left by her buddies in a new pasture she was unfamiliar with at night.


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## TexanFreedom (Apr 2, 2012)

texasgal said:


> TF .. a sabino gene didn't cause the color on the OPs horse. He is VERY classic varnish roan. He could have had a snocap blanket .. but he is a varnish roan.


It was just a simple question, I was only wondering. 


So, I read, and multiple sites told me varnish appaloosa have striped hooves and mottled skin, OP says this horse does not. 
Also, as someone else pointed out, eye problems are associated with heterozygosity, yet a fewspot is homozygous? 

I asked this before, but no one answered me; what is the genetic makeup f the pattern that causes a varnish appaloosa?


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## Chloezhorseys (Jul 21, 2012)

My appy looks excatly like him! I have no idea what color to call her hahaha everyone always comments and asks idk what to say haha


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

TF .. hoof color varies. Just like on a "normal" colored horse, if they have white legs, their hooves will be white. This is the same with apps. Also, being FS or snocap can affect the hoof stripes. Varnish can be present on any pattern, with any colored legs, hooves.

As a general "rule" Apps will have striped hooves, white scelera, and mottled skin.. there can be other factors at play.

I'm not sure of the exact genetics .. and I'm unsure of whether "they" understand the exact genetics of varnish roan yet. I don't know if it is it's own gene, or if it is "attached" to the LP gene. I just know how it is expressed.

Make sense?


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## grayshell38 (Mar 9, 2009)

I have my doubts about where I heard that it was heterozygous as being a sound source. Just to throw that out there.


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

I think it's homozygous .. but in my experience, I've seen more varnish roans with either moon or night blindness than any other color/pattern.

Again, my experience, and may not be the worldwide ratio.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

He is not a fewspot...he could be a snowcap, but it is doubtful. He is however most assuredly a blanket/varnish roan.

Moon blindness is associated with homozygosity - not heterozygosity. It is believed that all homozygous Appys have moon blindness.

It is not unusual for Appy chestnut varnish roans to be very dark in the upper body, with the lighter brown only showing up in the legs. The picture below is one of my former linebred Plaudit broodmares. She is chestnut, but appears much darker. Notice the lighter brown on her lower rear legs, very similar to the one the OP posted...


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## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

there are basically four color combos in appys.. obviously the PATN gene can cuase variations of these colors.. but there is

Leopard.. LP/lp (shows spots, striped hooves, mottled skin)
Fewspot/snowcap... LP/LP ( can NEVER have a solid noncharacteristic horse... does NOT have hoof stripes and may or may not have mottled skin..)
Solid Non Characteristic... lp/lp (solid hooves, no mottling)


there are obviously variations of colors within these genetics.. roaning, etc. 

I'll bet this guy has never had a solid NC horse. because im pretty dang confident he is LP/LP.


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## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

and if you cared enough.. florida is now doing LP testing


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

GA .. I don't think this is her horse .. but testing would be fun!


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## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

Appaloosa LP and CSNB Testing


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## grayshell38 (Mar 9, 2009)

Yeah, he is my Barn owner's horse, but she doesn't spend much time on internet forums so I am doing research and stuff for her. She came from H/J backround with Thoroughbreds and Warmbloods and such, so Appys are new to her as well. 

I will pass on the info to her about the tests. I'm sure she's going to want to do them. I can't wait to see what comes of it! 

He does have mottled skin, by the way. It is quite clumpy in some areas and not at all in others. It is quite sparse around his eyes and mouth but it is there.


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## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

grayshell38 said:


> Yeah, he is my Barn owner's horse, but she doesn't spend much time on internet forums so I am doing research and stuff for her. She came from H/J backround with Thoroughbreds and Warmbloods and such, so Appys are new to her as well.
> 
> I will pass on the info to her about the tests. I'm sure she's going to want to do them. I can't wait to see what comes of it!
> 
> He does have mottled skin, by the way. It is quite clumpy in some areas and not at all in others. It is quite sparse around his eyes and mouth but it is there.


 
that is not mottling. that is just skin pigment.. mottling looks like this...


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

GhostwindAppaloosa said:


> that is not mottling. that is just skin pigment.. mottling looks like this...


Correct.

Here is another example in my former stallion Chip...


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## grayshell38 (Mar 9, 2009)

^^Oh, okie doke. I should say then, he has mottled skin, but not hair. It can be seen very well when he is hosed down.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

GhostwindAppaloosa said:


> I'll bet this guy has never had a solid NC horse. because im pretty dang confident he is LP/LP.


Yeah, he could be a snowcap, but it's hard to tell. I haven't seen a snowcap with a blanket that small. I'm used to snowcaps having a larger blanket like my former gelding Rambo...


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## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

usually they do. unless they have the roaning gene....

Christan as a foal:








3 year old with her first foal:








Today.. she looks like a fewspot. but since I have a baby photo i know she is a snocap:


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## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

grayshell38 said:


> ^^Oh, okie doke. I should say then, he has mottled skin, but not hair. It can be seen very well when he is hosed down.


 
that is just his skin pigment. Most likely where he had color when he was born but it is now roaned out white. mottled skin is only usually present in Lp/lp.. or Leopard horses.


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## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

another example of a snocap

























and another NON roaning snocap


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

GA ... I don't think I've seen enough examples ..*wink* .. feel free to post more .....many many more ...

*sigh*


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## TexanFreedom (Apr 2, 2012)

These are all snowcaps with relatively small bankets. 


























This one's a varnish appaloosa: 









obviously they can vary...


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## TexanFreedom (Apr 2, 2012)

I just found this page; 
Appaloosa « The Equine Tapestry 
Maybe it can help to shed some light on our issue  

Some of you have probably read this page before, but I hadn't seen it before today.


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