# english saddle brands



## RebeccaMI (Oct 30, 2010)

I've come to the realization that I need a better english saddle. The one I've had for years is a no-name cheapie that I got as part of a package (for like $250 or so) back when I first got my horse. It's been OK, but after riding in some more expensive saddles that belong to a friend of mine I've noticed that a nicer saddle gives me a more secure feeling and helps put me in a better riding position.

So, the saddle (re)search begins! (And, so does the saving up to buy one, ha ha.) What I'd like to get is a good AP saddle so that I can do flatwork and a little bit of jumping but that I would be able to show in if I decided to do that at some point in the future.

For those of you who ride english, please share your knowledge/experience with me!

What brand is your saddle, and why did you choose that brand?

Would you recommend that brand, and if so, why?

How much was it, and did you buy it new or used?

From where did you purchase it?

Did you consider other brands, and if so, what DIDN'T you like about them?

What type of riding (trails/pleasure, dressage, jumping, XC, etc.) do you do in your saddle?


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## Poco1220 (Apr 6, 2010)

I considered bates, collegiate, and pessoa. However I purchased a Henri De Rivel "used" off eBay considerably cheaper than new. And although they called it used I could not find one scratch, stirrup leather wear, or imperfection on it!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

If you really want to do flat and show, I'd go with the dressage over A/P. Yeah, you won't be able to jump, but you can really tell the difference using one vs another. I personally have A/P Collegiate, which I like, but I prefer my dressage saddle for the ring work. I use A/P for trail riding and small jumps (if I'll be doing bigger jumping I'll be considering jumping saddle). I used to have jumping Pessoa, it was very comfy, but doesn't fit my horse any more. Overall, you really have to find out what brands/models fit your horse and then go from there (it was a real pain for me to find the dressage saddle, which would fit both my girls).


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## SaddleDragon (Sep 20, 2010)

I personally like used saddles better than new. Its good I cant afford new ones anyways. A $300 uesd saddle, is much better than a new $300 one. 
Its best to stay away from anything not made in the US or England or germany.
I love my old Kieffer dressage saddle, I paid $150 for it and all the fittings. Its was worth more, but that was the price. It was made in germany, is over 30 years old and still better than any new ones I see.
I also like my Campbell, Whitman, Stubben.

I agree that the dressage models are best for the flat, but some shows dont allow dressage saddles in hunt seat classes.


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## Quixotic (May 22, 2009)

I am a huge Stubben fan. My trainer swore by Stubben, which is probably why I learned to like the brand so much, but their saddles will literally last for your entire life, especially if you can find an older (non-blue dot model) saddle that is in good shape. They're made in either Germany or Switzerland, so any saddle that you can find that is made in either of those countries is pretty guaranteed to be nice quality. I own a Stubben Siegfried, & for an AP saddle, it gets the job done pretty well if you can't afford to have two different saddles. I've done eventing, jumping, trails, & flatwork in it.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I would like to add that Crosby saddles, made in England, are lovely saddles.
I don't think you can use a dressage saddle to show in hunter or hunt seat equitation, can you?


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## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

I'm a big Stubben fan. I have 6 in my tack room, lol. 5 are Siegfrieds ranging in age from 1970s to leate 1980s built. I have one Parvizal VSD from the early 1990s. 

However, my favorite are Passier APs. They're even more well balanced than Stubbens, and the leather is nicer. I don't have one only because I can never find one in my price range when I need a saddle, lol.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

I'm another Stubben fan - but as already stated, if a stubben works for me, and a stubben works for another, doesn't mean a stubben will work for you. You have to try many different brands, models, makes - out, on both you and your horse to ensure what works for the both of you.

Each saddle is made differently, so while my Harry Dabbs Origional Event puts me in a fantabulous position and works great for me and my horse, doesn't mean it will put you in a correct position or even fit your horses body type.

You need to hire a professional saddle maker/fitter to come in and help you out with your decision. That way, you know what is working for you and your horse, for sure


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Ride in tons of saddles and get a fitter out. A saddle fitter is your best tool because they will suggest saddles which fit your horse's back and your body type the best.

I find I can ride in most saddles, but I like Albion, I rode in a Prestige recently that was very nice as well. I prefer my Karl Niedersuss over all other though - I find the twist and overall close contact fit to be absolutely wonderful on my sensitive, hard to sit horse. Plus it fits me very well despite the flap probably being too long for me.
Haven't ridden in a jumper saddle of theirs, but they are quite reasonably priced. No prices on their website (you'd have to find a dealer) but they have a wide selection of CC saddles (springsattel) and one all purpose that wouldn't look out of place in a jumper ring (vielseitigkietsattel).
Sattlerei Niedersüß

Good luck!


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## RebeccaMI (Oct 30, 2010)

MIEventer said:


> Each saddle is made differently, so while my Harry Dabbs Origional Event puts me in a fantabulous position and works great for me and my horse, doesn't mean it will put you in a correct position or even fit your horses body type.


Right, and I do realize that. I was just wondering if perhaps a pattern of "likes" (or strong dislikes... or out and out "hates") would emerge so that I could narrow down my prospective brands. I was browsing ads on TackTrader.com the other day, and there's so many different brands it's enough to make my head spin. I recognized some of the names like HDR and Bates and Crosby and Collegiate and Stubben, but there were others on there I'd never heard of before.



MIEventer said:


> You need to hire a professional saddle maker/fitter to come in and help you out with your decision. That way, you know what is working for you and your horse, for sure


How much does that typically cost, and do you know of any good ones around in our part of the state? I'm hesitant to ask so-and-so from this or that tack place to come out, because I don't know if she/he will recommend a good brand for me or just what would be best for me from the brands that store sells. KWIM? I want an unbiased opinion that won't cost me an arm or a leg. I need both arms and both legs for riding.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

You can always call Renna Vandooren (517) 468-1177 or (248) 921-6446

That's his number that I got from Millbrook Tack.


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## RebeccaMI (Oct 30, 2010)

Have you used this person before? Do you have any idea what he charges?


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

I have used him a number of times. I cannot remember his prices - but call him and find out. 

I also have used 2 other saddlers in the area, and they are great as well. They both charge $75. 

Renna, is a saddle maker, and a fitter and he'll come out with a truck full of saddles, and equipment and will help you out alot.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Quixotic said:


> I am a huge Stubben fan. My trainer swore by Stubben, which is probably why I learned to like the brand so much, but their saddles will literally last for your entire life, especially if you can find an older (non-blue dot model) saddle that is in good shape. They're made in either Germany or Switzerland, so any saddle that you can find that is made in either of those countries is pretty guaranteed to be nice quality. I own a Stubben Siegfried, & for an AP saddle, it gets the job done pretty well if you can't afford to have two different saddles. I've done eventing, jumping, trails, & flatwork in it.


I have not read the rest of the posts, kinda got stuck here.....I also LOVE stubben. I had a VSS I bought used 20 years ago, and sold it last fall for what I paid for it. Still in great shape. However-I am baffled by the "non-blue dot" reference above. Mine was a "blue dot", and certainly was old, unless you are not considering 20+yrs old enough? Held up beautifully for sure and was comfy. Only got rid of it to get a Bates Caprilli-wanted the adjustable gullet for different horses. Love it. Still have it even tho I now ride western.:wink:


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## RebeccaMI (Oct 30, 2010)

MIEventer said:


> I have used him a number of times. I cannot remember his prices - but call him and find out.
> 
> I also have used 2 other saddlers in the area, and they are great as well. They both charge $75.
> 
> Renna, is a saddle maker, and a fitter and he'll come out with a truck full of saddles, and equipment and will help you out alot.


 I will keep that in mind. At this point I am at the very infant beginning of my saddle quest. I thought perhaps if I asked the opinions of enough people I miiiiiight be able to narrow the field a bit. (Wasn't going to bet the farm on it, but hey, if you never ask you never know.) That way, I could plan: This, this and this are good brands recommended by lots of people, and used saddles are typically in the price range of $X to Y, so I would need to save up for Z time to get one. Once I had saved up for Z time, or close to it, I could start seriously looking at for-sale ads and thinking about the possibility of either having a fitter come out or just trying out some used models to see how they work.


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## Quixotic (May 22, 2009)

franknbeans said:


> I have not read the rest of the posts, kinda got stuck here.....I also LOVE stubben. I had a VSS I bought used 20 years ago, and sold it last fall for what I paid for it. Still in great shape. However-I am baffled by the "non-blue dot" reference above. Mine was a "blue dot", and certainly was old, unless you are not considering 20+yrs old enough? Held up beautifully for sure and was comfy. Only got rid of it to get a Bates Caprilli-wanted the adjustable gullet for different horses. Love it. Still have it even tho I now ride western.:wink:


All of the Stubben saddles I've ridden extensively in have been older than that. There's nothing wrong with the blue-dot models, they're still very nice saddles, I've just heard from many people that the quality of the workmanship was a bit better with the older models. I'd of course not hesitate to get a blue-dot if I was looking for another saddle & found one for a good price that worked for me, I just personally prefer the older ones.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Well, I must say for value, price & fit I LOVE my Wintec! 

Get a pro Dressage new for $600 +/- with the CAIR system & adjustable gullet. Used at about half that cost. They work so well it is amazing. The only horse it won't fit well is some of the gaited breeds because of the long withers. 

You can use a plain, basic pad under it & the CAIR molds to the horses back. They really help the horse to be able to move the shoulder freely. I also jump easily in my Pro Dressage, it wouldn't work for high fences, but works great on the little ones. 

If you must have leather, save up & get the Bates for $2000 or so. The adjustable gullet makes it so easy to fit your horse & as they gain or loose weight you can change it too. New horse? No problem! Just adjust the saddle, no need to buy a new one!

No saddle fitter needed either! For those with unlimited funds, buying a fancy, expensive saddle without an adjustable tree is not a problem. But I still wouldn't trade in my Wintec for one of those Mine is much more comfortable for both me & my horse! My first one is about 20 years old & still looks wonderful. The secret is to never use soap on them, just brush gently and wipe with a damp cloth.


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## RebeccaMI (Oct 30, 2010)

I have yet to actually sit in a Wintec, but I must say I like the CAIR concept and I really like the idea of them being super-easy to care for.

I'm not sure about the adjustable gullet concept. I've heard good and bad things about it. Thankfully, my horse's weight doesn't fluctuate much and I only have one horse so I don't really have to worry about being able to change the way my saddle fits the horse.

In general, it seems to me that people who have tried Wintecs either LOVE them (in which case they probably went on to own one) or HATE them. I haven't really seen any middle ground.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

CAIR, and any air system for that matter, is a useless invention. Flocked saddles have worked for centuries and still to this day you'd be hard pressed to find someone on the Olympic podium riding in an air saddle.
Wintecs are a beginner's saddle and would not be a step up from your current saddle.

About the fitter - think of it this way. Without one you may have to buy and sell a few saddles before you find one you actually like and that actually fits. Spend $100 on a fitter and you only have to buy one saddle.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

RebeccaMI said:


> How much does that typically cost, and do you know of any good ones around in our part of the state? I'm hesitant to ask so-and-so from this or that tack place to come out, because I don't know if she/he will recommend a good brand for me or just what would be best for me from the brands that store sells. KWIM? I want an unbiased opinion that won't cost me an arm or a leg. I need both arms and both legs for riding.


Saddle fitter is definitely _not _a waste of money (especially if your horse is hard to fit). I used one this summer when I was looking for dressage saddle. We tried 8 saddles to come up with one, which fit both my girls. BTW, the saddle fitter said right on spot don't even look into Stubben, because it won't fit. KN & Albion didn't fit them either BTW. Yes, you pay the fitter, BUT it's cheaper than buying a saddle and then you have to re-sell it because it doesn't fit (which is not always that easy). 

When I was looking for the saddle fitter here in MD the price range was from $60 to $150. The problem I run into though some of them are dealers for certain brands of saddles and they are VERY pushy to sell those. So I went with the one, who was recommended by lots of people and who is not a saddle dealer.


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## RebeccaMI (Oct 30, 2010)

kitten_Val said:


> The problem I run into though some of them are dealers for certain brands of saddles and they are VERY pushy to sell those.


That's what I'd like to avoid. I have no problem paying for something worthwhile that will help me in the long run, but I do _not_ like dealing with pushy people who just have making $$ in mind and not necessarily what's best for me. And I'm inexperienced with quality saddles so I would be an easy target for someone to take advantage of me. (I'd better bring a knowledgeable friend with me!)


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

RebeccaMI said:


> That's what I'd like to avoid. I have no problem paying for something worthwhile that will help me in the long run, but I do _not_ like dealing with pushy people who just have making $$ in mind and not necessarily what's best for me. And I'm inexperienced with quality saddles so I would be an easy target for someone to take advantage of me. (I'd better bring a knowledgeable friend with me!)


Give them a call or email (all saddle fitters I found had emails). And just ask if they are the dealer for any saddle brand (in my experience they tell you right upfront).


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

The saddler I mentioned does not sell saddles, so therefore he is not pushy about selling you saddle. He makes saddles, custom for horse and riders, but he doesn't push them.

Lookit - there is more to buying a saddle far aside from just the "quality" of the saddle. Yes, there are higher ends and lower ends but the most important part, is does the saddle fit your horse properly?

Do you know the shape of your horse, and what type of tree shape he needs? Or what type of Gullet Size he needs? Or Panel Width? Panel Angle? Can he take a forward flap or woud that interfear with his shoulder? 

There are TONS of saddles out there, made in all different sizes, tree shapes, panel shapes, gullet widths and flat lengths and so on and so on - do you know what brand would work best for your horse, and what brand doesn't?

Just because a Harry Dabbs works for my horses body shape, doesn't mean it will for yours. Or just because a Collegiate Diploma works for my friends horses body shape, doesn't mean it will for you. 

There is basic saddle fitting - then there is "SADDLE FITTING" - *and only a professional will beable to tell you what works BEST for you and your *
*horse - regardless of "Quality" or "Name brand" that is stamped on it.*

Just as Anabel said, don't fall into the rut of buying saddles unseen off of the internet, don't fall into the rut of buying saddles online, that's just rediculous especially if you don't have the knowledge of what you need and what you don't need. 

There is ALOT that goes with proper saddle fitting...alot. 

There is another Saddler in the area, who doesn't buy or sell saddles, nor makes them, but she is god. She just got back from England to keep herlself educated and up to date on saddle fitting -she charges about $75 to come out and assess the situation. I cannot remember her name, or number, but if you call Diane.M, she has her contact info and can point you in her direction.

You need to start edcuating yourself as well - take that responsibility apon yourself to start learning the "know how's" of proper saddle fitting. 

These vids will help get you started, but they are not the complete puzzle of saddle fitting. I would still turn to someone who does this as a profession.

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-tack-equipment/question-does-your-saddle-reeaaalllly-fit-58116/


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## RebeccaMI (Oct 30, 2010)

MIEventer said:


> You need to start edcuating yourself as well - take that responsibility apon yourself to start learning the "know how's" of proper saddle fitting.


Uh, that's what I'm doing. If I didn't want to learn I wouldn't be asking questions and doing research.


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## Luvs2jump (Oct 11, 2010)

I've owned a Stubben, Silver Fox A/P, own a Wintec A/P, and currently ride in a County (not sure of the model) Close Contact (an older model), my favorite out of all of them is the County especially when it comes to jumping, I can get out of it easy over the fences and works great for flat. When I do replace the wintec for showing hunters/jumpers, it's going to be a good used County. Plus the Counties hold retail very well.


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## aarnie (Nov 3, 2010)

Excellent dressage saddle on Amazon - Collegiate


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

RebeccaMI said:


> Uh, that's what I'm doing. If I didn't want to learn I wouldn't be asking questions and doing research.


I think you are doing the right thing, asking and learning.

Do not let anyone discourage you.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Wintecs are a beginner's saddle and would not be a step up from your current saddle.


Could you possibly GET your nose any higher in the air there, anabel? :roll:

No wonder so many noobs think riders, English ones especially, are snooty, 'I'm better than you' asshats.

Many people use and love Wintecs, myself included, and they're hardly 'beginner' saddles. Contrary to your belief, they're used in the show ring every day, and not just at local, backyard shows.

OP, many of the saddles mentioned are wonderful, and I've ridden in a lot of them. The most important thing, regardless of the brand you pick (or the price you pay), is that it fits both you and your horse well.

A saddle fitter is a nice idea if you can afford it. If you can't, don't think your horse is going to drop over dead if you don't hire one. If you have knowledgeable friends, they should be able to help you with saddle fit.

Not everyone has $10,000 to spend on a custom made, fitted saddle. There are some 'off the rack' saddles that will do just as well for you and your horse without the jaw dropping price tag.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

RebeccaMI said:


> Uh, that's what I'm doing. If I didn't want to learn I wouldn't be asking questions and doing research.


That's the absolutely right way to go. I did read everything I could find about saddle fit, still I'm rather dumb when it comes to the actual fit for my own horse.   (although one of my horses is uneven, other has a very non-standard back).


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Speed Racer said:


> A saddle fitter is a nice idea if you can afford it. If you can't, don't think your horse is going to drop over dead if you don't hire one. If you have knowledgeable friends, they should be able to help you with saddle fit.


I have to somewhat disagree here, SR. Sometime horse is so uniquely shaped that you really want to get a very knowledgeable saddle fitter out to help you. I run into it last year and was in loss of selling my wonderful like-new Pessoa, because it wasn't a good fit. :-(

I agree about the Wintecs and high/low end saddles though. My new dressage saddle is in Wintec price range (Thornhill). Per the saddle fitter (and I could see it too), it was the best fit out of number of saddles I tried with her (including Albion, KN, Black Country, and County). Same stands for my cheaper Collegiate. You just never know, sometime a cheaper brand is the best fit for the horse and your own bum.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

First of all, you are absolutely right to investigate all your options first, and do not let anyone discourage you from any saddle if it is one you like!

I wanted to add that I did use a saddle fitter for years b4 Wintec came out with the adjustable gullet. My saddle fitter (who carried a variety of saddles) said that the wintec was very well made & that most saddlers love working with them.

The problem is, it is really important that a saddle fit your horse well. I ride Dressage & jump my draft cross over small jumps for fun because he likes it. I & everyone else I know, have to have the saddle fitter out every year to make sure that the saddle is fitting corectly. Saddle fitting is NOT a one time thing, which is why most of them are good about fitting you and your horse right. 

My friends ride as high as Intermedere I & II and I ride at second level. I have used my flocked Wintec for 15 years, first on a Thoroughbred cross mare, then on a QH gelding & now on my Draft cross gelding. The same saddle, three totally different horses, and all I have to do now is change the gullet. 

You may think that just because you plan to keep the same horse that nothing needs to change, but that is not true. As the horse get worked at different levels, the back changes, so you need a saddle fitter out every taime it changes, but at least once per year.

i used to get my flocked Wintec restuffed too, and I love it & it works great. But I recently purchased an older QH mare (15 yrs) for my daughter, and the little mare was very uncomfortable with many of the saddles. It was suggested to use the Wintec with the CAIR because of the way it molds to the horses back. The saddle needs to be used on a regular cotton quilted type pad, no gel pads or anything like that. So, the mare was obviously so comfortable with the saddle that now it is no problem for her to go in a very foreward frame with a really big trot. She did not move anywhere near this good in the other saddle. 

So this spring I went & bought a PRO Dressage with CAIR for my gelding. As soon as I mounted, he kind "perked up" and i could feel him moving his shoulders around as if to test it. After about 5 minutes, he seemed to decide this was a good thing and started really moving foreward freely. After riding him in it for several weeks, I brought out my older model without the CAIR to ride with. Although he rode fine, i could feel a slight hesitation in his shoulder like it was just a bit uncomfortable.

Anyway, In my experience, the breed of the horse makes a difference too. The Wintecs are unmatched it ease of fitting on Quarterhorses or QH crosses. It is good on draft crosses, Dutch Warmbloods & Fresians. (in my experience) The only one of my horses it did not work on was my gaited horse, who because of his long withers has to use a cutback saddle.

Stay away from the less expensive Wintecs, i am only recommending the PRO, the 2000 or the Isabell. The others, no.

By the way, i have showed & placed with qualifying scores at recognized Dressage shows in my Wintec and NO-ONE has ever put me down for using it. I have personally seen riders at forth level & even PSG riding in a Wintec. 

They are not a low quality saddle, but rather the right saddle for practical people. I love it & would not change back to a leather saddle even for money! Everytime I hop on a friend's horse & sit it the leather saddles my rear starts hurting! They are very stiff compaired to a Wintec. 

Also, I use regular high quality leather stirrups leathers without any problems.

Good luck with your search!


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Be careful about Wintecs though, while they are great saddles for those who they work for, they aren't the "be all and fix all" just because of the changeable gullets.

Changing the size of the "Tree Width" doesn't make the shape of the tree change. If you have a horse with a flat back, then yeah, the Wintecs will work - but if you have a horse with any slight of an arch to them, Wintecsc wont work.

And, don't forget, that if you change the size of the tree, you are now also changing how the saddle lays on the horses back.

I personally dislike Wintecs because they claim to be the "change the tree with, you can make this saddle fit any horse" which is far from the truth.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

MIEventer said:


> Be careful about Wintecs though, while they are great saddles for those who they work for, they aren't the "be all and fix all" just because of the changeable gullets.
> 
> Changing the size of the "Tree Width" doesn't make the shape of the tree change. If you have a horse with a flat back, then yeah, the Wintecs will work - but if you have a horse with any slight of an arch to them, Wintecsc wont work.
> 
> ...


Each to his own, but my horses do not have flat backs! You may be surprised to learn that my draft cross uses a medium-wide gullet. And no, the changeable gullet does not solve all the fittings issues...with the flocked models (which are wool) must be fitted just like any other saddle. 

The CAIR molds to the shape of the horses back, allowing for a custom fit for every horse. 

I was a not-believer too of the CAIR system, until I used it. Air makes a great cushion, which is why air is now used for hospital patients beds. The air cushion cuts down on pressure sores, one of the most expensive liabilities a hospital faces!

Wintec makes saddles specific to Arabs & Iclandics too. I am eagerly waiting for them to come out with a cutback model...

I would not purchase any saddle without a fitters assistance if I was inexperienced. However, after 40 years of riding, i do have some sort of idea about the fit of a saddle


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## rumba12 (Aug 15, 2010)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> CAIR, and any air system for that matter, is a useless invention. Flocked saddles have worked for centuries and still to this day you'd be hard pressed to find someone on the Olympic podium riding in an air saddle.


These riders are often riding on saddles they are being paid to use. There are plenty of GP riders in Europe riding on Cair and flair flocked saddles....why? Because they are sponsored by those saddle companies. 
Which of these air flocked saddles have you ridden in and evaluated personally that you can make such a strong statement? 



> *Wintecs are a beginner's saddle* and would not be a step up from your current saddle.


This is utter nonsense.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Rebecca, do you have a source where you can try various saddles? Do you ride at a barn with a good collection of saddles (owners or lesson program) that you can try various things to determine what you and your horse like best?

Rule #1 about saddle buying is that just because a saddle works right for that person over there does not mean it will work right for you on your horse.

All saddles are not created equal when it comes to how they make you sit on your horse.

I would for sure avoid the really low end $200 buys you a saddle, bridle, girth,pad and irons type saddles. But other than that, if it works for you, your horse and your discipline then it is the right saddle for you.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Rebecca, I just posted same in similar thread here...

You can take pics and contact the saddle fitter by email. I did it too - I contacted Trumbull Mountain Tack Shop - The Saddle Specialists with the pics of my horses/saddle and pics of tracing and asked for recommendations. Their recommendations were very appropriate. It's also a great place to shop for the saddle I must add. They are very knowledgeable, very polite, and their trial policy is great.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

kitten_Val said:


> Rebecca, I just posted same in similar thread here...
> 
> You can take pics and contact the saddle fitter by email. I did it too - I contacted Trumbull Mountain Tack Shop - The Saddle Specialists with the pics of my horses/saddle and pics of tracing and asked for recommendations. Their recommendations were very appropriate. It's also a great place to shop for the saddle I must add. They are very knowledgeable, very polite, and their trial policy is great.


 
Good advice! This is what they have to say about Wintec & Bates

Bates | Trumbull Mountain Tack Shop


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

> Each to his own, but my horses do not have flat backs! You may be surprised to learn that my draft cross uses a medium-wide gullet. And no, the changeable gullet does not solve all the fittings issues...with the flocked models (which are wool) must be fitted just like any other saddle.
> 
> The CAIR molds to the shape of the horses back, allowing for a custom fit for every horse.
> 
> ...


If the wintec works great for you and your horse, that is absolutely wonderful! I like Wintecs - I used one for years....until I found out from Professional Saddle Makers/Fitters and attending Saddling Seminars - that - they aren't all that "Spectacular" and "The amazing fit all" saddle because of the Gullet Change System.

My guy has a shaped back, and my Wintec...well, was bridging on his back for years, and I had no idea. I couldn't figure out why his back hurt. To be honest, I thought it was because he had a weak topline and I spent big bucks on chiro work.

Until I had a Professional come out to the barn I was boarding at to work with us, and he said get rid of that piece of garbage. I sent many pictures to a saddle in Canada who was trained and worked with Schleese himself *sp* and 2 other Saddlers I had come and assess the saddle - I didn't go with 1 opinion, I went with many. I took those same pictures, to the Saddling Seminar and got the same opinions. 

The fact of the matter is - wintec tree's are very strait. No matter how often you change that tree width to make it wider or narrower....will not change the shape of that tree. That tree will always, be strait regardless. I learnt alot about the mechanics of Wintecs when I took the innitiative to educate myself. 

The other thing I dislike about Wintecs, is their pannels. I dislike the gusted panels. They do not work for many horses because of how they are shaped. I also dislike the very narrow gullet width. Those saddles put alot of pressure on the horses spines, and the muscles around the spines - hindering muscle development. I can't even get 3 fingers into the space between the panels...and that's not good.

The ONLY wintec that has a shaped tree, is the Wintec 500 CC. Now that the new line came out - yesh......those trees are even straiter than the older models.



> Rebecca, do you have a source where you can try various saddles? Do you ride at a barn with a good collection of saddles (owners or lesson program) that you can try various things to determine what you and your horse like best?
> 
> Rule #1 about saddle buying is that just because a saddle works right for that person over there does not mean it will work right for you on your horse.
> 
> ...


Great post and well said.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

> Not everyone has $10,000 to spend on a custom made, fitted saddle. There are some 'off the rack' saddles that will do just as well for you and your horse without the jaw dropping price tag.


Hiring a saddle fitter to come and assess your horse and his back and your body type, doesn't mean you have to buy a custom made saddle. I can't afford a custom made saddle - but a saddle fitter being there in person, who does this for a living - seeing any saddle that is put on your horses back, can be a great asset to help you in the right direction of having a properly fit saddle for both you and your horse.

A good saddle maker/fitter will assess the saddle on the horses back, and will have you get in it and ride. They will watch you in the saddle and how your horse works with it on. They are educated enough to decipher what is going on and to beable to tell you - yay or nay.

That, is well worth the money. $75.00 for a day with a saddler, is a good price to pay to have that educated help. Far over someone who "thinks" they know how to fit a saddle who doesn't do this as a profession.



> I have to somewhat disagree here, SR. Sometime horse is so uniquely shaped that you really want to get a very knowledgeable saddle fitter out to help you. I run into it last year and was in loss of selling my wonderful like-new Pessoa, because it wasn't a good fit. :sad:


I agree Kitten. I went the route of listening to people who thought they knew and appeared to be "knowledgeable" in the saddle fitting area who didn't do this as a profession.....ending up with a Wintec that actually did not fit my horse because of the strait tree.

When I hired the professional to come out, I learnt that Nelson was an A symetrical shaped horse, high narrow withers, broad back. I discovered that if I go with a saddle to accomodate his withers, I no longer am accomodating his back. If I go with a saddle that accomodates his back, I am not longer accomodating his withers. I learnt alot about the shape of the panels and what shape he needed and what angles he needed for his back shape and how to get a saddle that accomodated his back, to fill in the pockets behind his shoulders to get the saddle to also accomodate his withers.

Hiring a professional was the best thing I did. He unloaded saddles that he had in his van after assessing Nelson and my body type - and tried them on his back. Some worked, some didn't. That's how we narrowed it down to the saddle I have now. 

I spent $100.00 on the Professional that I already recomended on past pages, but he was well worth it. 

Glad you were able to get help Kitten! Having a saddle that properly fits, both you and your horse makes a world of difference doesn't it!


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

MIEventer said:


> If the wintec works great for you and your horse, that is absolutely wonderful! I like Wintecs - I used one for years....until I found out from Professional Saddle Makers/Fitters and attending Saddling Seminars - that - they aren't all that "Spectacular" and "The amazing fit all" saddle because of the Gullet Change System.
> 
> My guy has a shaped back, and my Wintec...well, was bridging on his back for years, and I had no idea. I couldn't figure out why his back hurt. To be honest, I thought it was because he had a weak topline and I spent big bucks on chiro work.
> 
> ...


What kind of Wintec did you have? I compared the 500 model, no CAIR with the PRO model, no CAIR but fitted to the horse, a 16.3 hand (fat) Georgian Grande using a white (extra-wide) gullet. The saddles otherwise were the same size & model (17.5" Dressage).

This was a friend's horse & it was the first time I ever rode her. I tried both the saddles on her & the difference was amazing! She worked very well in the PRO and would hardly move in the 500 model. The difference was unreal. I immediately advised the owner of the 500 saddle to get rid of it & buy something else.

I have not tried the new Wintec models, they look a bit odd to me, but I sure would like to try one to see if they are truely an improvement.

The other model I did not care for was the endurance model, I found it to be too flat in the seat for me as I am used to a deeper saddle. Endurance riders swear by them however!

I use my PRO Dressage on trails too...very comfortable with the gel seat


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

I have the endurance model (and I do not do endurance, btw, I use it for hunter paces and trail riding) and I find it comfortable (so does my horse).

I think it some what proves that saddles are like underwear. Gotta find what you (and your horse) like over what others say is just perfect for them.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

I've never tried the pro - but the tree is very strait on that one too as the pictures I see online show me, just like my old saddle had. My saddle was the Wintec 500 A/P, and the Wintec 2,000. Both were crap. 

Is this your Wintec Pro?











Both had CAIR. 

LOL, yeah, the new wintec models look - interesting. I've seen them in person, I went to a local tack store who carries the Wintec line...and I stood there for a while with a cocked eye brow. I took one down and put it on their wooden saddle stands that are shaped like a horse so that interested parties can sit in the saddle to get a feel for it....and I did not like the feel of it.

The tree's are strait......strait, strait, strait. The panels are little better shaped though than the older line, but still - dislike them. I mean, don't get me wrong - if they work for you and your horse, then that's great! But for me......not at all. I decided to stay away from all Wintecs. 

I tried the Wintec Dressage 500 on his back as well, with the same result as my Wintec A/P had.

I wouldn't mind seeing a Wintec Pro in person though. I'd like to analyze it. The tack store no longer carries the older models, they are jammed packed with the newer. So I never had a chance to see a Pro in person.

~~



> I think it some what proves that saddles are like underwear. Gotta find what you (and your horse) like over what others say is just perfect for them.


lol, that's good. I like that.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Rebecca, here are some articles for you to read. I found them on the Practicle Horseman Article Archive.

Did you get to watch the videos?

http://www.equisearch.com/searchresults/index.aspx?t=Articles&f=(__source%3akrang.story+__source%3akrang.equisearch.story)&s=Saddle%20Fit

I hope you find articles in there to help you. I have to run to work! Have a great day!


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

***warning...English saddle noob here***

Has anyone outlined the good and bad you should be looking for in a saddle? Being a western rider, I am pretty clueless on some of the things that have been discussed here. I am all about learning and would love to know more about english saddle fitting. 

I think the OP has gotten some great responses here. I know what to look for in a Western saddle. But admittedly, there are far less options. So here are a few questions for you english types.

What are the advantages to a more expensive, say stubben, saddle than a less expensive saddle like a Wintec? I know that Wintecs are synthetic but of the handful of english riders that I know personally, they prefer the synthetic. 

While all saddles fit different horses differently, are some brands better for some horses? Example: in general, does a Passoa fit TB's better than QH's? 

I've seen straightness mentioned here several times? What kind of straightness? I can't imagine a curvy or warped saddle being a good saddle? When I look at a Western saddle, I want a nice straight tree. Is that what yall are talking about?

I understand that a saddlefitter is the best possible situation. Someone with a professional business in saddlefitting is going to be able to help you choose the right saddle for you and your horse. Isn't it a bit of a conflict of interest that the same person is also a salesman? What if you cannot afford a saddlefitter but would rather pour that extra money into a nice saddle? Admittedly, I haven't watched the videos. The sound on my computer doesn't work so that would be a bit silly! 

Sorry to thread jack but I figured I would ask here where there are plenty of experienced people on hand! LOL


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## RebeccaMI (Oct 30, 2010)

MIEventer said:


> Rebecca, here are some articles for you to read. I found them on the Practicle Horseman Article Archive.
> 
> Did you get to watch the videos?
> 
> ...


No, I didn't have a chance to watch the videos (other than the first minute or two of the first one). I worked late last night and when I got home I frosted a few dozen cupcakes for the little party we're having after choir practice tonight for one of the singers who is pregnant. Hopefully I'll have a chance to watch them sometime in the next few days.




AnitaAnne said:


> The Wintecs are unmatched it ease of fitting on Quarterhorses or QH crosses.


My horse is an Appendix QH, so hopefully if a Wintec ends up feeling good to me it will also fit him nicely. We'll see!



MIEventer said:


> Be careful about Wintecs though, while they are great saddles for those who they work for, they aren't the "be all and fix all" just because of the changeable gullets.
> ​



You can make the neck hole of a t-shirt bigger, but it doesn't do a darn thing about the way the shirt fits your body. If the shirt is too small it will still be too small even if the neck hole is huge. Same thing with the horse. The whole saddle has to fit, not just the withers. So far in my research I have learned this. 
​



Alwaysbehind said:


> Rebecca, do you have a source where you can try various saddles? Do you ride at a barn with a good collection of saddles (owners or lesson program) that you can try various things to determine what you and your horse like best?
> 
> I would for sure avoid the really low end $200 buys you a saddle, bridle, girth,pad and irons type saddles. But other than that, if it works for you, your horse and your discipline then it is the right saddle for you.


Unfortunately no, not really. Of the five horses at the barn that are boarded, only three (including my gelding) get ridden regularly enough to keep tack on hand and one of them is ridden western. So that leaves just one friend with tack I can try out! I've tried a CTD that she ended up selling to someone else, and a Theo Sommer that she is currently selling on eBay. The CTD felt weird to me. She said it put me in a good position but I just didn't like the way the knee rolls felt. The Theo felt pretty good to me but I don't have the money to buy a saddle right now and I didn't just want to buy the first one that felt halfway decent. Both the CTD and the Theo seemed to fit my horse.

Oh, and the $200(ish) buys-you-everything "package deal" is what I have now. It's been OK 'til now, but since I've tried out those other two saddles I can tell there is definitely room for improvement! My friend says my cheapie saddle feels like it's made of cardboard. (Maybe it is? :shock: JK)​ 


kitten_Val said:


> Trumbull Mt.


You are like the third or fourth person to recommend them to me. I looked yesterday at the wither tracing directions on their site and will probably be doing that and contacting them as a first step when I have saved up some $ for a saddle. I really like the idea of using the drafting curve for the tracing - sounds way easier than wrestling a coathanger!



Alwaysbehind said:


> I think it some what proves that saddles are like underwear. Gotta find what you (and your horse) like over what others say is just perfect for them.​



I was just saying that to someone the other day! Finding "The" saddle is like finding "The" bra: LOTS of work.
​​


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## RebeccaMI (Oct 30, 2010)

corinowalk said:


> Sorry to thread jack but I figured I would ask here where there are plenty of experienced people on hand! LOL


I don't really think it's hijacking since it's on topic and you're asking some good questions.


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## QHDragon (Mar 6, 2009)

I like stubben saddles, and the older ones can be found at some crazy cheap prices on ebay and in tack stores. I also like their off brand CTD. Wintecs are also nice as a cheaper starter model. 

Kieffer is great if you can afford them, and I also really like collegiate. Both of those seem to run around $500 on the lower end for used though.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

RebeccaMI said:


> I was just saying that to someone the other day! Finding "The" saddle is like finding "The" bra: LOTS of work.
> ​


Exactly!!!


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

corinowalk said:


> What are the advantages to a more expensive, say stubben, saddle than a less expensive saddle like a Wintec? I know that Wintecs are synthetic but of the handful of english riders that I know personally, they prefer the synthetic.
> 
> While all saddles fit different horses differently, are some brands better for some horses? Example: in general, does a Passoa fit TB's better than QH's?
> 
> I've seen straightness mentioned here several times? What kind of straightness? I can't imagine a curvy or warped saddle being a good saddle? When I look at a Western saddle, I want a nice straight tree. Is that what yall are talking about?


Cori, I'd say it's impossible to say this saddle is great for TBs and this for QHs. It mostly depends on shape of back, shoulders and height of the withers. Like my horses have wide back/shoulders, and the back actually curved(!) up  . So the flat saddle not gonna work - there will be the gap in back part of saddle (and I indeed saw it when we did fitting with different saddles). Certain brands are good for round horses (like duett, thornhill, bc), and some for skinny-type ones (I believe stubben is the one). If you are really curious look here: Saddle Fitting | Trumbull Mountain Tack Shop 

As for quality, frankly I don't know. On some saddles the leather is just awesome. But I think it depends on rider a lot too. I hate Stubben, it's just so hard on my bum. I also wasn't impressed with $$$ Butet - same problem, very uncomfortable. On other side BC (Black Country) is like riding a cloud. Etc.

BTW, I tried A/P Wintec and it didn't fit either of my horses even with the changeable gullet.


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

I love the way those Butet saddles look. My friend had a Passier in her consignment shop that was very very soft. She also had a Stubben that I didn't care for. 

In the end, I suppose whatever fits is best.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

I'm not a saddle fit expert by any means but I do have my preferences. 

The first 6 months or so I rode in a Wintec AP. I actually quite liked it. I wasn't a fan really of the billets (I can't stand the wintec dressage saddles I've ridden in and thats one of the many reasons) but overall I thought it was a good saddle. 

I then started riding in one of my instructors older model Stubbens (don't know which unfortunately) and LOVED it. I felt it put me in a much better position and unlike the Wintecs, I can ride for long periods of time a few days in a row in them and feel fine.


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## Oxer (Jul 9, 2010)

Antares Jumping Saddle - Close Contact Saddles from SmartPak Equine

i'm saving for this one!!


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

MIEventer said:


> I've never tried the pro - but the tree is very strait on that one too as the pictures I see online show me, just like my old saddle had. My saddle was the Wintec 500 A/P, and the Wintec 2,000. Both were crap.
> 
> Is this your Wintec Pro?


Yes, that looks similar to my new one. The older one (15+ yrs) looks different because it is flocked & was fitted to my draft cross. 

I have had friends send some back for exchange because of bridging. I am not sure that the ones built in the last few years have the strick manufacturing guidelines as the older ones. However, the saddles were exchanged without problem & they are happy with the new ones.

I like the extra close contact I get with the horse. I've noticed that horses that are not used to Wintecs are much quicker on seat aids because of the closer connection. I just can't feel the horse good thru some of those other saddles. 

One of my friends practically forced herr Keifer on me, but I just felt like I was sitting on a rock & so I gave it back to her. My horse just didn't seem to like it either.

But I get the feeling that Rebecca is on a very low budget, and she is riding in one of those cheap saddle packages that never seem to fit any horses. I went through years of special fittings & liftback pads & gel pads, air pads, you name it, I've used it. Yet the saddle just never fit right. 

Now I have 1 western 15" kids saddle for those friends of my daughter's that ride her horse sometimes, her 16.5" 2000 A/P, my 17.5" 2000 A/P (which is too big), My 17.5 " PRO with CAIR (fits ok), and my 17" PRO flocked (fits me perfect).

The saddle can look the same on the outside yet sit totally different as I found out with the 500 compaired with PRO. 

My paint horse (racing bloodline, lots of T-bred crosses) was the one I was able to use the medium tree on. He moved very well in it too, but turned out to be too hot blooded for children:-(

The size of the seat in comparison to the horse makes a big difference too! I had to put my daugher's horse in the 16.5 because the 17 was too big!! (mare's only 14.1 hands) Fortunately she fits that size too! She had a hard time getting used to the CAIR at first, she used to nearly bounce right off:lol:

But, as everyone has said, it is really important when riding with an English saddle to make sure it fits your horse...


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

corinowalk said:


> ***warning...English saddle noob here***
> 
> Has anyone outlined the good and bad you should be looking for in a saddle? Being a western rider, I am pretty clueless on some of the things that have been discussed here. I am all about learning and would love to know more about english saddle fitting.
> 
> ...


 
Of course you can join! It is always good to keep learning!

I rode western for years too & with those saddles all you have to do is pad them up or down depending on how fat the horse is. Somehow they always fit

English saddles it is not so simple, they really follow the horses back, so they need to be fitted to the shape of the horse. The problem that happens if you try to just pad them up like a western saddle is the short-billited saddles will slide all over the place. The long-billet saddles (most Dressage some All purpose ones) do not slide as much, but still need to fit. 

The only really big difference is with cut-back saddles. The only way I can explain it is they have a slot cut out of the front for the withers to sit in. Gaited horses like Tennessee Walkers have long, high withers that would be in the way of the other saddles & would force the saddle to sit partly over the loins and just wouldn't fit right. The cutback saddles also have nearly no padding & are typically put on the horse without a pad. Sure feels weird to ride in, very hard & uncomfortable. I rode a Gaited show stallion in that "big lick walk" and it was the strangest thing in the world! The back half of the saddle was sticking out from his back at a 30 degree angle once he droppd his haunches. His back was so muscled I felt like I was perched on a..well...I don't know how to describe it...but i think I would have slid off the back end if that little saddle wasn't there...

Some gaited horses have really flat backs and are almost square shaped, making any of the other saddle types, Dressage, All Purpose (A/P), Jump or Close Contact saddles impossible to fit them. Oh, one more type, racing! Little bitty thing that I have no idea about

Arabians tend to have shorter backs & Iclandics are different too, but I am not sure how. I have wondered if an Iclandic saddle would fit other gaited breeds but just don't know...

Other than that, the breeds can use pretty much any saddle that fits their back & the rider.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Fogot to mention...when we talk about the saddle being "fitted" the saddle fitter first checkes the whither ht & w, the back shape, length, etc. then opens the saddle up & adjusts the gullet (if needed) and stuffs the underside of the saddle to exactly fit the horses back. Of couse he/she will also make sure the saddle is the right length for the rider & can stuff the seat to your shape too


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

About the Wintec thing. They are a beginners saddle, I'm sorry. I don't care if you think I sound snobby but they are relatively poorly constructed with cheap materials. It's like buying a pleather jacket. Even a cheap leather jacket looks, feels and performs better. They charge a pretty penny for a "changeable gullet" which does not in fact affect the tree, only the gullet, meaning it cannot fit every horse. And about the CAIR panels. Any air panel cannot guarantee a custom fit. What they do is distribute pressure so it is even everywhere, leaving room for the saddle to slide and move. As soon as you introduce solid flocking like wool or some of the newer foam, with a well fitted saddle you create slight pressure points which hold the saddle in place. Also, the air panels do not absorb shock - they transfer it. So a bouncy horse becomes bouncier to the rider in an air saddle and in some cases the saddle may lift off the horse's back in moments of great suspension. 
My saddle fitter will not touch air saddles of any brand. She thinks that they deteriorate the horse's backs from constant pressure and leave no room for muscle building or development. 
I have had 2 air saddles. One was my first dressage saddle, a CAIR Wintec. It worked great on my QH who I rode at training level. Then I bought a new horse and couldn't make the Wintec fit her so I bought a "custom" air flocked saddle. It was $5000 up front and I probably spent around another $5000-$10000 making it "fit" her. Including sending it back to Germany to get the tree replaced. The mare ended up with a back problem and was retired to brood. I was dumb enough to "fit" it to my next horse and promptly got rid of it after the first video of me riding him in it showed the saddle a good 4" off his back in a medium trot (not to mention I couldn't sit his trot to save my life in the saddle, switched to a properly flocked saddle and the problem is gone).
My mother also just sold her Wintec and couldn't believe the difference in her comfort and her horse's attitude and movement with the new saddle. Her new saddle was actually LESS than a new Wintec, including the saddle fitter costs!! The Wintec by all means "fit" the horse (ie had the correct gullet size). The saddle fitter had no issue with how it was fitting either, but still the horse was uncomfortable.

I know some people swear by them (one girl in my area rides PSG in one - with terrible position) but they are just not a good saddle I'm sorry. If you are serious about riding and plan on having your horse for a while, find a saddle fitter and do the saddle thing properly. I'm sure you would want your running shoes to fit perfectly were you a cross country runner. Give your horse the same treatment because once you wreck a back, they are very, very hard to fix.


And a PS on the Wintec pro - if your going to buy one eat at McDonalds a lot or buy padded underwear. I had severe bruising over my seatbones from riding on one of those only a few times on a friend's horse.


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## RebeccaMI (Oct 30, 2010)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> It was $5000 up front and I probably spent around another $5000-$10000 making it "fit" her.


So in total you spent $10,000-15,000 on that saddle? All I can say is :shock: Please tell me you saved up for some time before you spent that money, and didn't just drop all that cash at once. Figured in with my regular monthly expenses, it would take me literally _years_ to save up that much. I envy your budget!


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## RebeccaMI (Oct 30, 2010)

AnitaAnne said:


> But I get the feeling that Rebecca is on a very low budget, and she is riding in one of those cheap saddle packages that never seem to fit any horses.


Yep. I've just started saving for a better saddle and it's going to take a few months. Got other monthly expenses that take priority and I have to stick to my budget.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> About the Wintec thing. They are a beginners saddle, I'm sorry. I don't care if you think I sound snobby but they are relatively poorly constructed with cheap materials. It's like buying a pleather jacket. Even a cheap leather jacket looks, feels and performs better.
> 
> Then I bought a new horse and couldn't make the Wintec fit her so I bought a "custom" air flocked saddle. It was $5000 up front and I probably spent around another $5000-$10000 making it "fit" her.


I am trying to understand what you mean by a "beginner saddle". It sounds like an insult to the rider that uses one, but maybe you are using the term "beginner" to mean someone riding at the lower levels?

Because I do not understand why "beginners" should be subject to lower standards than "advanced". It sounds very insulting. So just hearing the term "beginner saddle" sounds rude.

I think everyone should use the best thay can get. But you are in a whole different economic level here. I've never even spent $5000 on a horse much less a saddle...

I have competed & placed in Region 3 on a $1000 grade QH in recognized shows. I think most of the people I compete against would be in shock if they realized I was able to place higher than their 25K & up warmbloods that they spend major dollars at trainers with, many imported from Europe. My little 15.1 hand gelding was a show favorite too & was always surrounded by fans.

I do every thing at an unheard of low price. . my board is $130 per month...i would never consider one of those name brand name saddles (Stueben, Keiffer, Passier, etc.) that sell for $1500 & up used & look like...well...crap. 

But then I would rather drive my newer PT Cruiser than an ancient BMW too.

Some riders, like myself, need to be very practical & buy the best they can afford. I think Rebecca is in that catagory, not the economic level that you speak of. my house cost less than what people I ride with spend on their horse. however, I am treated always with respect & as an equal

my bum has very little pading too...genetics, my dad was the same! McDonald's is not going to change that! I find the Wintec extreemly comfortable & my bum doesn't hurt a bit. 

As i said, each to their own...but I am trying to give Rebecca practical, useable information. I bid on a Wintec PRO with CAIR, complete saddle package (leathers, girth, etc.) for $337.00 on E-bay and it was just like brand new. The worn out looking ones are junk! Don't buy them!

Personally I think Wintecs are very good quality, and yes, I do hope they can improve on the material used on the underside of the saddle, I don't care for it much, but my horses don't seem to care. The other thing that is important is because the seat is fuzzy on the PRO & 2000 models, you can't wear leather seat breaches, just won't work! I use regular knee patch breeches & often riding jeans for everyday.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

RebeccaMI said:


> Yep. I've just started saving for a better saddle and it's going to take a few months. Got other monthly expenses that take priority and I have to stick to my budget.


Many of us are not rich. I can't afford $5K saddle much less $10K even it's the best fit in world for me and the horse. So just look at different alternatives and try different saddles. Again, you can find something under $1000, which may be a nice fit and still within a budget!


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> Many of us are not rich. I can't afford $5K saddle much less $10K even it's the best fit in world for me and the horse. So just look at different alternatives and try different saddles. Again, you can find something under $1000, which may be a nice fit and still within a budget!


What Kitten_Val said!


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

LOL Anabel - eat at Mcdonalds. You crack me up  Great post by the way.

I used to ride in a Wintec, for a few years I used that Wintec 500 A/P without even realizing otherwise.

I had to FIGHT to get in a proper position. I had to struggle to keep my legs under me and to stay "solid". I felt hindered - and to be honest, I thought it was me! I worked my **** off fix my errors and struggled to obtain some sort of solid position.....and it was very hard.

Until the point where I discovered my saddle was NOT fitting my horse, and when I learnt alot about how shoddy Wintecs are and how they are falsly advertising "This saddle will fit any horse" - I never knew that saddles were supposed to AID you and your horse, not hinder. 

I see alot of Lesson Barns using the Wintec. Because they are cheap and "changeable" but most riders who progress forward in their riding and who end up getting their own horses after they graduate from lesson horses, end up getting their own saddle. The most common I see around here are Stubbens and M.T's.

You will rarely ever see the Wintec at Hunter/Jumper shows - but I do see them often at HT's at Beginner Novice and Green As Grass. 

I was lucky enough to beable to get into other saddles and I felt a world of difference in my position. Especially when I got into my now saddle, the Harry Dabbs.....man, that saddle is a fantabulous saddle for me! It AIDS my position. I can get up into a functional two point without struggle. I can keep my legs under me without pain or without having to fight it - the saddle puts me in the right position where my Wintec did not. 

I bought it used. You don't have to pay alot for a saddle that does wonders for you and your horse. But I do not begrudge those who can. I wish I could! 

Custom usually is the better way to go, because most saddles on the market are "cooker Cutter" where a custom can be made to fit. If I had the money, and if I was going "big", I would invest in a custom for sure - but for now, that's why we have Professional's who do this as a profession to help us, who cannot afford custom, to ensure that the "Cooker cutter" saddles we do try and have access to, do fit properly, for both horse and rider.

I tried the Collegiate, the M.T, Stubben, Phillipe Fontaine, HDR, any saddle that had a bit of an arch to the tree, with nice flat panels that layed at the correct angle on Nelson's back, with a nice wide gullet. When I sat in my now saddle, it was like the angels sang from the heavens - lol.

Rebecca, I hope you will find "the one" quicker than I did! Did you get a chance to contact any of those saddlers mentioned? I understand the finance situation, I'm there, trust me! And I fully understand that stresses of finances too. But when you do save up some money, don't hesitate to get help


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

MIEvnter said:


> The fact of the matter is - wintec tree's are very strait. No matter how often you change that tree width to make it wider or narrower....will not change the shape of that tree. That tree will always, be strait regardless.
> ​




MIE, can you explain what you meant by saddle being too straight and that straight is bad?

I must be thinking something totally different than what you are trying to say because I have always been taught that not straight is bad, very bad even. 


​


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## RebeccaMI (Oct 30, 2010)

MIEventer said:


> Did you get a chance to contact any of those saddlers mentioned? I understand the finance situation, I'm there, trust me! And I fully understand that stresses of finances too. But when you do save up some money, don't hesitate to get help


I figure there's no point in contacting anybody until I have the money to pay for the service they provide. This month I am starting my saddle savings project, so I think after the holidays I'll start to think about figuring out what type of/size saddle would best fit my horse.


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## RebeccaMI (Oct 30, 2010)

Oh my goodness I just had a brilliant idea. *lightbulb* I could ask my horse's previous owner if she remembers what type of saddle she used with him. Maybe she even still owns it! Of course that's no guarantee it'd fit ME, but at least I'd have an idea of what would fit HIM.


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## Quixotic (May 22, 2009)

Just keep in mind that the previous owner may not have actually had the saddle fitted to him by a professional, so just because the saddle had been used on him before doesn't mean that it actually fit him correctly. It'd be nice if it did fit, though!


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Rebecca, that is a great place to start.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

I agree with Quixotic.And what I mean by a tree that is strait - is, well, a tree that is strait. If you look at the wintec saddles, look at their tree's. They go strait across, no arch to them at all. So they accomodate horses with strait backs. Like HITS QH mare Sandie. They work well for a particular shaped back. Then look at Stubben's line of saddles, for example. Look at their tree's. They have a shape to them, an arch or as saddlers call it, a banana shaped tree. These tree's accomodate a horse with a back that has an arch to it. Like TB's.Now, if you put a saddle that has a strait tree on a horse that has a back that has an arch to it, you're going to run into the problem of bridging. Where the saddle rests on the shoulder, and the back of the saddle rests on the horses back, but the center does not because that's where the arch is in the horses back. So, now you have a pocket of space there, and all the pressure is being dispursed on the two areas mentioned, causes back pain and discomfort and lack of work ability when under saddle.That is what was happening to my fellow when I was using the Wintec, and I didn't know that. The pocket was small, but enough to cause enough back pain where I was spending a fortune on chiro work. If you lay the saddle on the horses back, and you put pressure on it with 1 hand, and you slide your other hand underneith the saddle and move it from the pommel back, you'll feel that pocket when you hit the center. Now, if you have a hors like Sandie, who has a strait back, and you put a saddle that has a bit of an arch to the tree on her back - you'll have a problem. Now you have a saddle that rocks because it isn't laying flat on her back. Even if it is just a slight rock, the rock is still there. Now the saddle is putting pressure on the center of her back, instead of laying flat and evenly. Get what I am saying? Even if you find a saddle that lays correctly on your horses back - flat = flat, arch = arch...you have to now also consider the shape of the panels, and the angle of the panels and the with of the panels...and blah blah blah....there's so much that goes with this.I by no means am a professional, I just know what I know due to the saddling issues I had with Nelson. Now that I think of it - Luvs2Ride is a Saddler - she might be a great help for you Rebecca to get started on your path to finding the right saddle. I am sure you can post pictures where she'll beable to see your horses back shape and give you suggestions on what brands to look towards. But you'll still want a professional there in person, to assess the saddle, first hand, one on one.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Ugh.....excuse my post. My Laptop is being very funky today where it wont allow me to make proper paragraphs and scentences. I need my Computer Genius Husband to take a sledge hammer to this blasted thing........I can't even quote, or bold.....*mumbles*


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## RebeccaMI (Oct 30, 2010)

Quixotic said:


> Just keep in mind that the previous owner may not have actually had the saddle fitted to him by a professional, so just because the saddle had been used on him before doesn't mean that it actually fit him correctly. It'd be nice if it did fit, though!


Or if it fit him back then, it might not fit him now. He's a few years older and, um... let's say he lives a more leisurely lifestyle than a competitor. :wink:

But at least it's a piece of information I didn't have before, maybe a springboard...


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

I like Ideal saddles.


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## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

This may be a bit off topic, but I just wanted to pop in and say a person CAN find a good quality saddle on a budget. Buy used... I have bought all of my saddles used in the $150-400 range, and they all retail new from $800-2,500. I buy older, used saddles built 15-30 years ago, I have mostly Stubbens. Most older used saddles will need some reflocking and many will need new billets or other minor repairs, but you end up with a much higher quality saddle that will last another 15-30 years if properly cared for.

Buying a "bargain" saddle new is *STUPID*, plain and simple. You end up with a low quality saddle that you'll be lucky will last you 1-3 years, and has NO resale value once you decide to move up to a nicer saddle, or switch disciplines. 

Bargain saddles are these low quality package deals or other "Imported" saddles that are made in Asia. The trees are often warped right out of the box, and if not, they will warp over time. The "leather" is chemically treated junk that pollutes the rivers where it's made. The hardware is nickle plated and will rust and/or break overtime. The pannels are usually not stuffed correctly with gullet chanels too narrow. These saddles often cause pressure points on the horse (though some horses suffer without objection) and they RARELY put a rider in the correct position. These saddles are not well balanced.

The only two quality brands coming out of Asia are Collegiate and Wintec. Wintecs and some of the less expensive Collegiates are made in Vietnam. Wintec owns the plant theirs are made in, and I believe Weatherbeeta owns the Collegiate plant as well. Quality control is high and all of the materials are high quality. 

So, in closing, NO you do not have to be able to afford a $5,000 saddle in order to ride in comfort and have quality. You just have to take your time and hunt for a good deal on a used saddle, and maybe save up a few more months to make sure your saddle budget is higher than $200... ;-)

If you want a bargain saddle, buy one used for $50-75. There is no need to pay $200-300 for a cheap saddle that isn't really worth the price of shipping it to your house.


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## vivache (Jun 14, 2009)

I have an odd question that may be off-topic.

Saddleseat saddles don't come in tree sizes. Not the good ones, not the crappy ones. My coach has National Bridle's Economy show saddle-- $160 new. I've ridden in it a LOT and LOVE it. It's lasted her almost a decade with no problems. The stitching is starting to wear a little and the suede is worn from jeans, but the tree is sound and unwarped. In that case, is it worth the 2k to shell out for a nice new saddle, or is it just as OK to get one of the Cheapie McAsianmade? I mean, I'll probably get a Stubben Gaited saddle eventually, which is more customizable, but..


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## RebeccaMI (Oct 30, 2010)

luvs2ride1979 said:


> The only two quality brands coming out of Asia are Collegiate and Wintec. Wintecs and some of the less expensive Collegiates are made in Vietnam. Wintec owns the plant theirs are made in, and I believe Weatherbeeta owns the Collegiate plant as well. Quality control is high and all of the materials are high quality.


CRAP! Collegiate saddles are made in Asia?? Has that always been the case, or were they ever made somewhere else?

I know it's not always possible to do so (for example, when buying off-the-rack clothing or with many electronics) but if I can do it without spending ton$ more I make an effort to try to avoid products made in Asia and other countries to which our jobs are getting outsourced. I was thinking I might end up getting a Collegiate since they are pretty common used, but now I'm all bummed about that idea.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Wintec and Bates are made in Australia. That's where their factory is and the base of their company. 

I have never heard that Wintec and Bates are made in Asia......

Bates owns Wintec - and the two are made in the same factory, in Australia.....when did this thing happen in Asian?


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## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

RebeccaMI said:


> CRAP! Collegiate saddles are made in Asia?? Has that always been the case, or were they ever made somewhere else?
> 
> I know it's not always possible to do so (for example, when buying off-the-rack clothing or with many electronics) but if I can do it without spending ton$ more I make an effort to try to avoid products made in Asia and other countries to which our jobs are getting outsourced. I was thinking I might end up getting a Collegiate since they are pretty common used, but now I'm all bummed about that idea.


They were made in England, WAY WAY back in the day, then most of the product range moved to Argentina with only a couple top models still made in England. About 3-4 years ago their lower priced range moved from Argentina to Vietnam. Still with the same leather and hardware, just assembled in Vietnam.

If you get one used, it will likely be made in Argentina. They will have a "made in" stamp on them.


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## Shimla101 (Nov 7, 2010)

I'm just going to answer the OP's questions, because I sadly don't have time to read the whole thread, so please forgive me if I repeat anything 

*What brand is your saddle, and why did you choose that brand?
*
I own a stubben saddle which I love. It's about 20+years old, but I don't use it because A) I don't have a horse, and B) even if I did, it probably wouldn't fit, because Stubben's don't fit many horses.
If I was in the market for a saddle I'd definitely be looking at a Prestige saddle or a Pessoa XP3 for the following reasons:

The Prestige Versailles and the Prestige New Golden Star are both highly versatile saddles in that they fit many different types of horses. They're both jumping saddles and the Versailles has a latex panel, while the Golden Star has a flocked panel. They're both adjustable.
The Pessoa XP3 is also fully adjustable with the X-Change gullet system, has a flocked panel, and is by far the most comfortable.
The above mentioned saddles offer the rider a lot of support in the seat and leg, and are not so forward cut that it would be impossible not to do a bit of everything in them.
Prestige and Pessoa have very good customer care in terms of warranties should something go wrong with your saddle.
They're both in the middle range in terms of cost. So they're going to cost more than the cheap saddles, BUT, you're getting a very good quality product that's probably going to last you a lot longer if it's looked after well.
*Would you recommend that brand, and if so, why?*


Yes, because as I mentioned, they're a little more expensive, but versatile and their resale seems to be pretty good, from what I've seen.
The Prestige saddles are very light, the only thing that would put me off getting one is if I lived in an out of the way area, because it would be less convenient to take the saddle in to get adjusted. Where as the XP3, you can purchase gullets for it, and change them yourself if you need to.
The upside of the Prestige saddles, also, is that the manufacturers are coming out with new stuff all the time, different panels that you can buy to suit your horse's shape. They also come in 3 different flap cuts - regular, +2 and +4 (for those of us who have really long legs and small rears)
The XP3 only comes in 2 - the regular and the 'Extra'. The Extra, I've found, doesn't fit as well, because it seems to interfere with the horse's shoulder more.

*How much was it, and did you buy it new or used?
*
I don't know what these saddles cost in the UK or America. Doing a direct conversion from ZAR to US dollars I've estimated both saddles to be about $2500.00, but I could be wrong.

*From where did you purchase it?
*
I'd only purchase it from a shop that is supplied directly by the manufacturer.

*Did you consider other brands, and if so, what DIDN'T you like about them?
*
Before I knew about Pessoa and Prestige, I would have only ever gone with Stubben, but knowing what I know now, I can see the downside of that, because they don't always fit well, and tend to be too narrow for the horse's spine. 

*What type of riding (trails/pleasure, dressage, jumping, XC, etc.) do you do in your saddle?* 

I'd probably, at this stage, mostly do pleasure riding, with maybe the odd casual show in between.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Wintec is Asian-made from what I've been told in 2 tack stores. However Collegiate used to be Argentinian-made (unless they changed it).


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## WickedNag (Sep 7, 2010)

So if I had a choice to buy a quality used Stubben, Collegiate and Crosby all in the same price range and say they all fit the same. (just saying  ) Which brand is better, resale, riding etc


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

WickedNag said:


> So if I had a choice to buy a quality used Stubben, Collegiate and Crosby all in the same price range and say they all fit the same. (just saying  ) Which brand is better, resale, riding etc


The problem is Stubben and Collegiate have very different fit from my experience (I don't know about Crosby - never tried it). Stubben definitely will be a better brand for re-sale, but for example Stubben is a big no-no for both my girls (while Collegiate is a decent fit).


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## Shimla101 (Nov 7, 2010)

kitten_Val said:


> Wintec is Asian-made from what I've been told in 2 tack stores. However Collegiate used to be Argentinian-made (unless they changed it).


You're absolutely correct. Wintec saddles are made in Vietnam (though I'm not sure what the problem is with that? Need to go back through the pages and read, when I have time). IMO, Wintec are about the best, non-expensive saddle on the market at the moment (in terms of non-leather at any rate).


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## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

WickedNag said:


> So if I had a choice to buy a quality used Stubben, Collegiate and Crosby all in the same price range and say they all fit the same. (just saying  ) Which brand is better, resale, riding etc


I would choose Stubben or Crosby, in that order, but I'm a big Stubben fan ;-).


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## dreamalittledream (Sep 23, 2010)

i just got a cliff barnsby.... IT IS SO COMFY! it was on sale for 3000, but it's like sitting on a cloud.
my other saddle is a passoa, YOU NEED TO SIT IN ONE! they are amazing.


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## WickedNag (Sep 7, 2010)

luvs2ride1979 said:


> I would choose Stubben or Crosby, in that order, but I'm a big Stubben fan ;-).


I finally got to ask my best friend who has always ridden and shown English and she gave me the same advice. 

Thank you!


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## RebeccaMI (Oct 30, 2010)

I found this on another forum and asked permission to crosspost it.



> There was a thread on COTH (Chronicle of the Horse) board in 2008, when it was chronicleforums.com, that had some current Crosby & Collegiate info. I found the printout that I kept, but can't find that thread on their current board.
> 
> Here's a summary of that thread from Feb & Mar of 2008, plus some other notes I took from various discussions around that time. And you can take all of this as hearsay and opinion:
> 
> ...


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## RansomTB (Nov 2, 2010)

I agree with the members that say they like their Wintec's!

I love my Wintec A/P 500 and on top of it all, they have the interchangeable gullet system. The saddles new run about 550. I got mine on sale for under 400 at Dover. Then you can buy the gullet system for about 80 dollars and it comes with a measuring tool and everything. I have changed the gullet 3 times in my saddle as my TB has grown and it beats buying a new saddle every time! Not to mention it is the most comfortable saddle. I used to ride in a friends Stubben Siegfried when I was showing her mare and I hated that saddle.


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## englishcowgirl1897 (Nov 30, 2010)

I have a Rodrigo Pessoa, I don't know which model nor does the person that I bought it from. I bought it used from my instructor for $500. I absolutely love it! It's very comfortable and I couldn't wish to have any other saddle than this one. I ride hunter jumper. I hope this helps you!


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