# Problem Trainer Needs HELP



## NewbeeTrainer (Aug 22, 2011)

Hi there everyone! I am in dire need of some helpful tips. I have a proud cut 5 year old Pacifino Mustang with some serious attitude issues. He was sent to a trainer for a month and while he got used to being saddled, everytime I rode him he would still try to get me off. He bucks and kicks, and after a full day of just ground work will act like he is green again the next morning. My biggest problem lies in the fact that I myself am not experienced enough myself to know what is going to work for him. I have only ever worked with well trained horses that needed to be rode after a long winter or just werent getting much attention and needed refreshers. My biggest problem is letting him back out to pasture after a days ground work. He bucks and kicks out the gate almost hitting me. I've tried to calmly walk him through but he just rears and flails around. Any helpful tips would be appreciated!! Thanks!


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Get a trainer or get rid of the horse. Your in a very dangerous situation


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Having been around horses of this description, I can tell you that they can be very unpredictable and downright dangerous. If you are not willing to do the surgery necessary to remove the remaining hormone producing tissue, I would consider possibly putting the horse down. There is often no way to make these horses safe enough, IMO.


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## NewbeeTrainer (Aug 22, 2011)

I could never put him down. He is truly a good horse and he has amazing potential. I cant afford a trainer and I do know enough to keep myself at a safeish distance. Putting him down is NOT an option.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Get to the gate, open it only enough for him to go through-(you stay outside), send him through & turn him around to face you. Close the gate as much as possible, then reach through & release him. 
If he rears or acts like a nut keep pulling him back to the gate but try to stay of of the same area he is in. I'd suggest a long rope to start.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

NewbeeTrainer said:


> I could never put him down. He is truly a good horse and he has amazing potential. I cant afford a trainer and I do know enough to keep myself at a safeish distance. Putting him down is NOT an option.


Then get the surgery or sell the horse. Your not doing you or the horse ANY favors by letting him get away with that behavior. Your putting yourself and the horse at risk by not getting medical and professional training help. If you cant afford to do what is necessary to keep you and the horse safe then you shouldnt have it.


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## QH Gunner (Aug 16, 2011)

I dont think putting the horse down is even an ohkay suggestion. That's ridiculous, telling her to sell him would be a better suggestion. How do you even know that him bein proud cut is the reason? 

Me personally, just working on what you said is his biggest problem in your opinion, I'd walk him thru a gate 200 times- & every time he kicked I'd swat his legs with a dressage whip. When he listens, make him turn, face you, & stand before you even THINK of unclipping him. That's where I'd start. He needs to respect you first, before anything else.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

I have reposted this article on so-called "Proud cut" horses more than once, and I will again give credit to bubba13 who posted it first.

http://www.cvmbs.colostate.edu/bms/e...dcut_apr09.pdf
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NewbeeTrainer (Aug 22, 2011)

Thank you OHGunner and Natsha. I will try both of those ideas out and see how it goes. 
And I do have him for sale but dont want him to get more raunchy just sitting and waiting for someone to buy him. I would rather keep working with him until he is sold to someone more knowledgable than I.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Sunny said:


> I have reposted this article on so-called "Proud cut" horses more than once, and I will again give credit to bubba13 who posted it first.
> 
> http://www.cvmbs.colostate.edu/bms/e...dcut_apr09.pdf
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Your link does not work. 

A horse that is a danger to itself as well as others is useless and will most likely end up put down or at slaughter anyways :?


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## NewbeeTrainer (Aug 22, 2011)

Oh yeah and as for him being proud cut... I dont know for sure that is the reason. Unfortanatley I dont know very much about him as he was sold with the farm I now live on. What I do know is he was treated like a dog, then sold to a trainer who didnt have time for him and then sold to the farm where I live.


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## gigem88 (May 10, 2011)

By your own admission, the biggest problem is that you're not experienced enough to handle the situation. And I agree with you! A more experienced person to deal with him is definitelty in order, whether you have a friend or have to pay a trainer. I also agree putting him down isn't an option. If you truly can't hire a trainer and /or have more surgery on the fella, then the next best thing is to arm yourself with knowledge. I like the Clinton Anderson DVDs on gaining respect. Of course, they're expensive too but you can rent them at a fraction of the cost. The only DVD rental companies that I know of presently is giddyupflix.com. Above all be safe, don't overextend yourself and realize if/and/or when the situation calls for you to throw in the towel! good luck.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

Sorry it isn't working! I'll try to work it out later.

But the general point of the article:
There is no such thing as a proud cut gelding in reference to continued testosterone cause by retained epidiymis. This has been confirmed by many vets, including my personal vet.

The epididymis is not what produces testosterone, so therefore retained epididymis cannot cause a gelding to continue to produce testosterone.

-Off to find link for article-
ETA: I'm trying to find another article, and if I find the one I'm looking for I'll post it.

http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=2645&S=0&SourceID=69

So, again, no such thing as proud cut. A retained testicle, sure, but not proud cut. The correct term for a retained testicle is cryptorchid, not proud cut.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NewbeeTrainer (Aug 22, 2011)

ANY horse can be trained. Its just a matter of finding a techique that works on this particular horse. Thats why I am here. To find different techniques to try. Not to give up on him because he has attitude. That much I do know.


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## NewbeeTrainer (Aug 22, 2011)

Thank you all for the helpful tips. I hope to work out the kinks and give Shooter the best chance at a good life. I am a horse lover and fully believe that arming myself with knowledge is the best step to take. Thank you!


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

NewbeeTrainer said:


> ANY horse can be trained. Its just a matter of finding a techique that works on this particular horse. Thats why I am here. To find different techniques to try. Not to give up on him because he has attitude. That much I do know.


Very noble of you, but you need to help yourself before you can help this horse. You need a trainer who knows what they are doing so they can teach you and help you teach him. 

There are few horses cannot be trained that are just flat out dangerous and mentally are not stable. Im not saying thats the case with this horse.


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## gigem88 (May 10, 2011)

Keep us posted and show us some photos!!


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## WhoaNow (Jan 18, 2011)

Sunny said:


> I have reposted this article on so-called "Proud cut" horses more than once, and I will again give credit to bubba13 who posted it first.
> 
> http://www.cvmbs.colostate.edu/bms/e...dcut_apr09.pdf
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This says 'Page cannot be found',..., I don't think its just me, is it??
Somebody else try the link please:wink:


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

WhoaNow said:


> This says 'Page cannot be found',..., I don't think its just me, is it??
> Somebody else try the link please:wink:


No, it isn't just you. I don't know what went wrong, but I'm trying to fix it. :wink:

Let's try this.....

http://www.cvmbs.colostate.edu/bms/erl/PDF/Learnstall9_proudcut_apr09.pdf

I'm still having issues, but if you reallllly want to read it you can just google "colostate cvmbs proud cut" and it will likely be one of the first few links. It is a PDF.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NewbeeTrainer (Aug 22, 2011)

I tried the link as well and got the same error code. I posted some pics on my profile of my guy and will post and update as goes the progress!


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## QH Gunner (Aug 16, 2011)

Good Luck! 
Advice: This could be a difficult thing to train out of him. & like others stated- dangerous. Since you can't afford a trainer, I would suggest (like was said) to look things up online on a trainers page. Sometimes they do have troubleshooting ideas, which your problem might be specified. What I said has worked for horses I've had, but every horse is different so keep an open mind. Maybe look for clinics in your area that you could go to/participate in. 
Don't show fear to him, as sometimes that invourages such behavior, but make sure you do respect him & respect that until he stops this he could seriously injure you. I would start at step one & completely retrain your horse on ground manners. I've always been told that if the horse doesn't respect you, he'll never take the time to respect what you are training him or doing with him. 
I hope it all works out for you! It can be frustrating when you want so much out of em, but keep a calm head & work in small steps. & STAY SAFE!  Keep everyone posted!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

.Delete. said:


> Very noble of you, but you need to help yourself before you can help this horse. You need a trainer who knows what they are doing so they can teach you and help you teach him.
> 
> There are few horses cannot be trained that are just flat out dangerous and mentally are not stable. Im not saying thats the case with this horse.



This is soo true. Our neighbors up country have a gorgeous little mare that is as mean as they can be. There were even a few trainers that tried to work with her and the last one said to put a bullet through its head. And he is a well known trainer around here.


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## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

I would suggest signing this horse over to a reputable rescue that works with a trainer.... Or giving him to someone who is a trainer. You have him for sale but not many people are going to pay anything for a crypt mustang gelding with tons of training issues.


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

You might be able to sell him, but it's not right to pass on your problem to someone else. Will you be able to live with the guilt if the horse kills someone?

Unfortunately, there ARE untrainable horses, and there are too many good, sane, trainable greenies out there to take risks with dangerous ones. The future is bleak for a dangerous horse, and often the kindest solution is to put the horse down before he ends up in a bad situation, or before you get seriously injured.

No matter how experienced I might be thirty years down the road, I will _not_ work with a rearer.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Yep I would do lots of ground work with him, but first you need to be able to have control of him under lead and while he is out in pasture/turnout or whatever you do.

Does he try to charge you or rear at you or kick at you when he's out with the herd (even for turnout)?
What halter do you have him in?
How do you lead your horse? (this may seem like a very silly question but can affect the horse)
Does he understand pressure and release or does he just tackle down everything standing in his way?
If you take him for grass, or just lead him, is he rude and snatchy or does he follow willingly?

The entire time you need to keep a no nonsense attitude. A horse is looking for a leader-someone to keep him safe. If you have fear, then he'll step up and be the leader, or he'll fly off in the other direction as fast as he can. It all depends on the horse.

Before even slipping the halter on, watch him out in pasture or turnout or even in his stall. What is he like? Is he bored? Is he trying to escape?

This will help you to determine where his mind is at.

THEN once you have a respectable controlled and calm horse on lead, take him into a large enough space where he can roll and such, and let him walk around and explore things, then work on sending him off in directions with a lunge whip or a lead rope (furthering his idea of "respect my space" and pressure.)

Take it slow, and never feel frustrated. Try to remain calm and then if need be, get angry (but a controlled anger) and be firm.. then soft when need be.


Just some tips


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I want you to google Erin's Carolyn Resnick's Notes and do the first step called Waterhole Rituals. You will just spend time in the field or paddock. Take a chair, read a book, clear him from your mind. Don't even look at him. Do this for what could turn in to many days. He is getting used to your presence and beginning to accept you as part of his herd. When he approaches, pay no attention. Do have a whip handy in case but hopefully you won't have to use it to back him away. Horses are curious creatures so the hope is that he comes to investigate you. Only then do you go to the next step. You are building trust and letting him decide to approach or not.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I know some of the suggestions seem harsh but people are giving honost opinions. I'm not ready to jump on the put him down band wagon yet but the trainer wagon I'm in agreement.

If you can not afford to send him to a trainer, seek the guidance of one. There are trainers that will give you lessons on the ground for the cost of a riding lesson and teach you how to handle these things.

When it comes to dangerous behavior you really should not risk yourself trying to figure it out through magazines, forums, and youtube. Sometimes it is just a matter of one proper technique but you need an experienced person to help you.


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## Jamzimm101987 (Aug 11, 2011)

There is no reason to put him down...this horse is acting as if he were a stallion because due to some testicular tissue leftover, he thinks he is. Would you put a stallion down if he acted this way? If so, there are going to be a lot of stallions euthanized because they all act that way at some point in time in there lives.

I highly recommend you look into following Clinton Anderson's Downunder Horsemanship. It is an excellent training method for any horse, but especially problem ones. For now, whenever he behaves badly make him back up. First teach him how to back up and when he is naughty really get after him. Horses do not LIKE to back up (do you ever see one in the pasture randomly backing?) No. Carry a short dressage whip with you and whenever he is naughty really make him back, back, back, back, back....and make him do it quickly. Trust me on this tried and true method. He will soon learn to behave himself because it is no fun to have to work so hard. If he won't back, use the whip on his chest. Whatever you have to do to get him to back (don't beat him, but mean business) make sure you make it clear that he needs to get out of your space and that this is a punishment for the behavior he is displaying. I typically make my naughty horses back 10-20 steps very quickly...then go forward again and act like nothing ever happened...if he's naughty again, then repeat the punishment. You may have to do it many times, but eventually he WILL figure it out. Anytime he displays a behavior you don't like, you make him back. It is different under saddle. I do not make my horses back under saddle much because when they learn something new (dressage), if they know how to back, then tend to back up if they get confused. Reinback is in 2nd or 3rd level, so no need for a training level horse to know how to back. If he is naughty under saddle, do a one rein stop (nose to your knee).

For more info, research Clinton Anderson and consider becoming a member and purchasing the videos  Good Luck!


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## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

Ok here is my thing... you said that you aren't experienced enough to handle his issues. People on here can give you advice on how to make him listen on this forum but honestly it's just words on a screen. It's not going to translate into what you actually need to do. My worry is that you will try something on here and get hurt. You need to learn just what you can and can't do so that you don't get yourself injured. I used to think that I could do it all and with most horses I'm okay with figuring stuff out. But with my husband's draft gelding I know that I can't do things on my own. I need help and unless someone is there to assist me I don't bother. 


I strongly suggest that if you do try and teach this out on your own you always have someone there with you in case something goes wrong. PLEASE wear a helmet while dealing with this horse. He is trying to strong arm you, teach you he is your leader and not the other way around. My feelings are that he was never properly taught respect and because of this you will have to work twice as hard on teaching him what is and isn't wrong. 

As far as stallion behavior goes, even with a stallion issues like this should be addressed as soon as they arise. Especially with stallions you need to be at the peek of your attention, knowing what your horse is doing at all times, when they are behaving in this nature. Your horse has a relatively hot breed (Paso Fino) in with a naturally "free" breed. He was never taught to curb his natural instincts. I would be worried that this is never going to change and just going to get worse. 

If you must do the training on your own, instead of reading advice go on youtube and look up people dealing with problem horses, buckers and how to earn respect on the ground. Good luck with him.


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

Jamzimm101987 said:


> There is no reason to put him down...this horse is acting as if he were a stallion because due to some testicular tissue leftover, he thinks he is. Would you put a stallion down if he acted this way? If so, there are going to be a lot of stallions euthanized because they all act that way at some point in time in there lives.


Any stallion that reared, kicked, or bit while in my presence would be gelded or sent to a trainer for a good come-to-Jesus meeting. Being a stallion is no excuse for a horse to misbehave.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

When you said that the horse was "proud cut" I assumed that you had a vet do a hormone level blood test. I guess not....That means the horse MAY just be rude, not a crypt.


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

NewbeeTrainer said:


> ANY horse can be trained. Its just a matter of finding a techique that works on this particular horse. Thats why I am here. To find different techniques to try. Not to give up on him because he has attitude. That much I do know.


While I admire your determination this isn't the type of problem that typed answers from an internet forum or a dvd will fix. I'll also agree than pretty well any horse can be trained...by someone experienced with problem horses. 

I'm quite afraid you are in over your head and will get seriously hurt. You need to seek in person help with this situation. I've personally worked with & rehabbed horses with similar & worse behavior and it is not something for an inexperienced horse owner to take on. I have one now that was "that horse" but worse. It took every bit of guts & grit that I had to work through his issues and I've been training for the public for over 15 years and am the 3rd generation trainer in my family. There were still things that he threw at me that I asked my mom for suggestions on fixing. 

Others have suggested selling him, I don't think that would be feasible. I don't know anyone who would pay to take on those kind of problems when you can buy a safe horse for pennies in this market. Most trainers wouldn't consider taking him for free even because of risk of injury & loss of more profitable business. Sad to say but you are most likely stuck with him, the only honorable thing to do is get help or euth him.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Sunny said:


> No, it isn't just you. I don't know what went wrong, but I'm trying to fix it. :wink:
> 
> Let's try this.....
> 
> ...


That link is working now for me, and I think this is the exact same thing, but in case not, here's the original I pulled up:

http://www.cvmbs.colostate.edu/bms/erl/PDF/Learnstall9_proudcut_apr09.pdf


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## KissTheRing (Aug 2, 2011)

Some one said something about clinton and I would agree with them. He has a couple great methods to get through attitude problems. John Lyons round pen training has always worked very well for me. Does he do well with being tacked? As for the bronco show when riding I would try putting something heavy and stable on his back and lunge the crap out of him. And if that heavy item isn't enough make it heavier. ( I had to resort to this with a gelding with butt issues I. E. Tieing it behind the saddle) if it's more of the cues do it enough times he gets bored and doesn't care. And since he has problem remembering his manners don't let him have a day off. Always have a goal!
" I want this done by this date and if it doesn't happen hell 
must have froze over"
And if you just can't there's no shame in a trainer. I'm sure if you plead enough they could give you a good price.

Best of luck and happiness to you!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Can someone please link to my "Playing the Hero" thread please?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

JustDressageIt said:


> Can someone please link to my "Playing the Hero" thread please?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Sure. 

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/playing-hero-when-stick-when-realize-50485/


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

1. Have your vet run a testosterone test on him…that will tell you for sure if he's a ridgling or not. 

2. Gelding a horse only removes its testicles - not its brain, teeth, hooves, muscle or ability to use them. 

3. You cannot teach a horse what you do not know.

4. The horse isn't going to read those books or watch those videos - so don't be surprised if he doesn't act/behave like those demo horses do.

5. If you insist on going this alone without a trainer or knowledgeable/experienced help, you are going to end up spending money whether you want to or not…either on a hospital visit, a visit from the vet or both.

Just my .02 cents worth.


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

Horse Poor said:


> 1. Have your vet run a testosterone test on him…that will tell you for sure if he's a ridgling or not.
> 
> 2. Gelding a horse only removes its testicles - not its brain, teeth, hooves, muscle or ability to use them.
> 
> ...


I'll second all the above, especially the bolded. OP, you are getting some very sound advice, unfortunately it seems that since it isn't what you wanted to hear you likely won't listen to a word of it.


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

If you go to Clinton Anderson's website, you can submit a video of your horse and might be chosen for one of his tv series. He would then come and work with your horse.

I do think you should find someone to help you. I don't think the horse needs to be put down.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NewbeeTrainer (Aug 22, 2011)

For those of you thinking Iwill not take a word of this to heart I just want to say I already have. I went out and spent all afternoon and well into the night walking Shooter through the gate and back again until he did it calmly. I do agree that professional help is needed but as I am raising four kids on have only the option of shooting him myself or training him myself. I cannot shoot him. As for selling him with these problems I have been open and honest with all of my potential buyers so they are all aware of his issues and have denied a few folks because they were not ready for a horse of this caliber. I have had him in a corral for a week now working with him everyday and as of this morning can finally say I can catch him without chasing him all over. AFter an hour of work he gets back into routine and walks calmly while being lead and just this week I finally managed to brave picking up his feet myself (I have a farrier that comes to do his feet) and he picked the up and put them down without any trauma. I have spent all winter studying techniques and reading books on how to work with a stubborn horse. And as one of you said the horse doesnt read so its not like he just knows what I am doing so i practice it and practice it on my aunts well trained bomb proof horse until I have perfected it then I try it on him. I have studied him I have spent days in the pasture just watching his movements. He is very affectionate and loves the attention. He just hasnt had enough time spent.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Giving him away to someone who can help him might be a better option then selling.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NewbeeTrainer (Aug 22, 2011)

*Does he try to charge you or rear at you or kick at you when he's out with the herd (even for turnout)?
*He doesnt rear or kick while I am holding him. HE spins himself in circles which suits me fine cause I just keep him spinning until he gets tired and calms down. He does however kick and buck once let out and he is away from me.
*What halter do you have him in? *
Before last nights session I had a normal run of the mill halter with a buckle by the ear. This morning I used a rope halter on him as it makes him pay a little closer attention. What Kind should I be using?
*How do you lead your horse? (this may seem like a very silly question but can affect the horse)
*I make him walk at an arms length from me and I walk on both sides of him. I do a figure eight on the left then I do the figure eight backwards on the right. I have read that you must work both sides of a horse. Is this proper?
*Does he understand pressure and release or does he just tackle down everything standing in his way?*
He does understand pressure and release. If he is corraled for more than two days without his buddies I can make him back up and turn left and right without halter or lead by just putting pressure on chest, left side and right side.
*If you take him for grass, or just lead him, is he rude and snatchy or does he follow willingly?*
Yesterday was the first day I actually took him out of his corral. At first he was excited and tried to bolt out the gate. I just snapped his rope told him "whoa" in a firm voice and after ten minutes of not being allowed through the open gate he calmed down enough to walk out. Once out he again got excited so we walked in circles until he was ready to stand then I allowed him to eat. He lead wonderfully after that until I tried to take him back in then he got excited again so we repeated the process until he walked in and out of the gate calmly.


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## gigem88 (May 10, 2011)

NewbeeTrainer said:


> Once out he again got excited so we walked in circles until he was ready to stand then I allowed him to eat. He lead wonderfully after that until I tried to take him back in then he got excited again so we repeated the process until he walked in and out of the gate calmly.


Instead of letting him walk circles around you until he settles down, let him make a circle or two, then make him change directions, go a circle or two and change directions. Do this until he's puffing abit and listening to you (meaning his attention and eyes are on you), then let him rest and see if he'll be quiet and stand. If not keep repeating until he does.


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## NewbeeTrainer (Aug 22, 2011)

oh yeah and I read to that a person that isnt well trained should not try to lunge a horse because they could seriously injure te horse or mess up the training done to the horse. And that a horse who has never been lunged will not lunge. So i do not lunge. If this is wrong I would love to know as I would prefer to lunge him to work out the nervous energy.


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## QH Gunner (Aug 16, 2011)

NewbeeTrainer said:


> oh yeah and I read to that a person that isnt well trained should not try to lunge a horse because they could seriously injure te horse or mess up the training done to the horse. And that a horse who has never been lunged will not lunge. So i do not lunge. If this is wrong I would love to know as I would prefer to lunge him to work out the nervous energy.


 


Do you have a roundpen? Or would you lunge in an arena on a line?


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## gigem88 (May 10, 2011)

It's not lunging, per se. It's making him changes directions (keeping his feet moving) to get him to focus on you.


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## NewbeeTrainer (Aug 22, 2011)

I dont have a round pen. I was thinking about lunging him in the pasture but my aunt says its to open. he needs to be able to see a barrier to properly lunge.


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## QH Gunner (Aug 16, 2011)

well, sometimes you can have them lunge on a lunge line in a riding arena, but a pasture i wouldnt recommend. thats his place to play, teachiung him something like that where your going to want him to run & such is asking for trouble if he doesnt alreadu know whats expected. Personally, I prefer free lunging in a pen, but a line does work too with the right setup. 
Keep him on a leadline & make him do little circles around you, keep making him spin his butt away & keep his shoulders off of you. It will help dispel some energy & teach him manners at the same time.


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## NewbeeTrainer (Aug 22, 2011)

Awesome! Thanks.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I haven't read all the pages so this question may have been asked but has he been tested for crypt orchid?


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## NewbeeTrainer (Aug 22, 2011)

No he hasnt been tested for anything. I am a single stay at home mom and cannot afford a vet bill. I deworm him and spray him with bug spray to try to control the bugs but thats all I can afford.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

NewbeeTrainer said:


> No he hasnt been tested for anything. I am a single stay at home mom and cannot afford a vet bill. I deworm him and spray him with bug spray to try to control the bugs but thats all I can afford.


If you cannot afford even the proper shots needed, you need to get rid of this horse. What happens if the horse gets injured? You dont have the means to take care of him, do the horse a favor and give him to someone else.


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

NewbeeTrainer said:


> No he hasnt been tested for anything. I am a single stay at home mom and cannot afford a vet bill. I deworm him and spray him with bug spray to try to control the bugs but thats all I can afford.


What on earth prompted you to take on a horse? ANY animal we choose to take responsibility for needs to be taken on with full consideration of all of their needs and our ability to meet them. If you cannot provide proper care (that is medical and training, etc), you owe it to the horse to proceed with HIS best interests in mind, not your's.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

NewbeeTrainer said:


> No he hasnt been tested for anything. I am a single stay at home mom and cannot afford a vet bill. I deworm him and spray him with bug spray to try to control the bugs but thats all I can afford.


Horses need yearly vaccinations, as well as a once a year check to see if their teeth need to be floated, and routine farrier work every 6 to 8 weeks.

I'll bet you don't know how to clean a sheath, or that it even needs to be done at least twice a year. Some people would rather their vet take care of that, as some horses can be rather _-ahem-_ not amenable to the idea. 

Really, if you can't afford regular _maintenance _expenses, what the heck are you going to do if/when this horse hurts himself? Not to mention he's probably going to hurt _you_, because you have no business trying to train a horse. :?


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## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

I'm saying this nicely. Because I've been in your boots. Find that horse a home and volunteer at your local rescue or do a partial lease. You are stressing yourself out and coming on here isn't going to solve anything. Some people here are just going to put you down and make you feel bad about yourself. At least with a partial lease you can ride and you won't have to pay for full care and if at anytime you need you can give notice and walk away.


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## Dresden (Jun 24, 2011)

Speed Racer said:


> Horses need yearly vaccinations, as well as a once a year check to see if their teeth need to be floated, and routine farrier work every 6 to 8 weeks.
> 
> I'll bet you don't know how to clean a sheath, or that it even needs to be done at least twice a year. Some people would rather their vet take care of that, as some horses can be rather _-ahem-_ not amenable to the idea.
> 
> Really, if you can't afford regular _maintenance _expenses, what the heck are you going to do if/when this horse hurts himself? Not to mention he's probably going to hurt _you_, because you have no business trying to train a horse. :?


Just wanted to agree with this and add some horses are higher maintenance (ie: emphasis on the at least). My horse not only has to have his teeth floated twice a year but he's exceptionally filthy in the sheath area and has to have it done about every 3-4 months so up to 4 times a year! He also has to be mildly sedated to have it done. Regular care costs money!

Do you know whether your horse needs these things done? Or when? Horses are expensive. If you can't afford to keep them healthy you can't afford to keep them...

There are cheaper ways to be around horses if you want to be...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

ShutUpJoe said:


> I'm saying this nicely. Because I've been in your boots. Find that horse a home and volunteer at your local rescue or do a partial lease. You are stressing yourself out and coming on here isn't going to solve anything. *Some people here are just going to put you down and make you feel bad about yourself. *At least with a partial lease you can ride and you won't have to pay for full care and if at anytime you need you can give notice and walk away.


I dont know /who/ this is directed towards but i have to disagree, i dont think anyone has been insulting. If anything everyone who has posted has been helpful. Just because some people dont take the time to word things "nicely" and dance around what they are really trying to say. Some people, like myself just get to the point, its not insulting, its not rude, its the truth. 

Im slightly peeved at your post because i too have been there. I feel as if your post is claiming the other people posting on this thread haven't been there I had to sell all of my animals, not just my horses. They were my world, my first pony, my show horse, my dads horse (he cried when he left). It literally broke my heart and tore me apart to sell them. But i _knew_ i couldnt take care of them anymore. I would have given anything to be able to keep them. But it was my responsibility to realize my limits and _put their needs infront of my wants._ I _wanted_ to keep them i _wanted_ to be able to take care of them properly, but i _couldnt_. I had to accept that and so does the OP. *So she SHOULD feel bad about herself for taking on this horse fully knowing she cannot afford it*. That is wrong, that isnt fair to the horse. 

The OP is being irresponsible and selfish by ignoring the fact that she cannot take proper care of this animal. To me, its border line inhumane to keep an animal you know you cannot take care of. So perhaps you could take some of my own posts as rude. Perhaps i am getting a little too emotionally involved with this thread, but I had to give up my animals, my children. So forgive me for still being a little bitter.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

ShutUpJoe said:


> Some people here are just going to put you down and make you feel bad about yourself.


She _should_ feel bad about herself if she can't afford the proper care and training of this animal. Better to get rid of him than make HIM suffer for her inadequacies and financial hardships.

If it came down to me not being able to give my animals what they needed for a healthy, happy life, I'd get rid of them for_ their _sake.

Nobody's putting her down, we're telling her the _realities_ of life with animals. If you can't afford the proper care, then you shouldn't have them. There's simply no way around that truth, and I can't sugarcoat it just to spare someone's feelings. My concern is for the animal, because HE didn't get a say in where he lives or with whom.


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## gigem88 (May 10, 2011)

Has he been vaccinated, Newbee?


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## Dresden (Jun 24, 2011)

I've been in her boots too except I did NOT get a horse until I could afford it. I went 15 years without even being around horses regularly. It sucked but I am an adult. I wasn't going to take in an animal I couldn't afford. I got laid off a few years back and had to give up a couple of my dogs and cats until I was at a number I could afford to care for while still feeding myself. It hurt to give them up but it was better for ALL of us. 

Having a horse she can't afford isn't just affecting the horse negatively. Its probably adding more stress etc to her life and costing her money to feed him, etc that should be going to better her and her childrens quality of life. I don't want to be harsh but neglecting an animals needs for your own wants is bad. I'd feel bad about myself if I did that and I certainly wouldn't expect or want people to coddle me if I were neglecting my animals.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

What about a farrier? Have you been getting your horses feet done?


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Exactly, Dresden. What happens when she can only afford to feed herself and her children, and not the horse? Because if she's a single, stay at home mother I'm betting she's not exactly rolling in the dough, and welfare/child support doesn't cover for luxury items like horses, nor should it.

The same people on this board cooing and patting the OP over us 'meanies' turn into shrieking harpies when they think someone isn't feeding an animal properly, yet they think it's all kinds of fine if she can't even afford regular health maintenance? Just because the animal might not be thin at the moment doesn't mean it's not being neglected.


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## NewbeeTrainer (Aug 22, 2011)

I just want tp put in here as some of your are putting me down and some of your are trying to be gentle about what I should be doing that I have to agree with .Delete. If it has to be said in a gentle coddling manner than you shouldnt be saying it. Most of us are adults here and should be able to take all forms of advice given. As i do. I appreciate the honesty. Brutal or not. As for the horses sheath and vaccinations,... my boyfriend paid for the vet to come out last year for those things and as until today I was not aware it needed to be done regularly ( the sheath not the vaccs) I will make a point of saving for that purpose. Or try to work out a deal with a local vet. But the vet I had come out was more oarnary than my horse. ANd I did not take him on. He came with the place and I couldnt just let him sit out there being ignored. I have been trying for a year to find the right buyer while fully disclosing his issues. He is not ready for a once a month ride kind of life and for some reason these are the only people my ads have attracted. I make sure to save money for feed in the winter an he has farrier formula and I have a regular farrier that works on his feet. ANd as for my children... They have all they need and do not ever go without. I am smart enough with my money that I can budget for regular vet bills now that I know what he needs. I am sorry that I offended some of you by making you think this horse is not taken care of. I was raised around horses and NEVER saw my uncles or my aunts get a horses teeth floated. Thats not to say they never did it I just never saw it done. Thank you for the insight.


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## NewbeeTrainer (Aug 22, 2011)

And I am not on welfare. I grow a garden and I make my own bread and I butcher my own cows and I hunt my own deer and elk and dress and cut my own meat. I am not a welfare case. If I cant do it then I budget it in so I can afford it.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

NewbeeTrainer said:


> I just want tp put in here as some of your are putting me down and some of your are trying to be gentle about what I should be doing that I have to agree with .Delete. If it has to be said in a gentle coddling manner than you shouldnt be saying it. Most of us are adults here and should be able to take all forms of advice given. As i do. I appreciate the honesty. Brutal or not. As for the horses sheath and vaccinations,... my boyfriend paid for the vet to come out last year for those things and as until today I was not aware it needed to be done regularly ( the sheath not the vaccs) I will make a point of saving for that purpose. Or try to work out a deal with a local vet. But the vet I had come out was more oarnary than my horse. ANd I did not take him on. He came with the place and I couldnt just let him sit out there being ignored. I have been trying for a year to find the right buyer while fully disclosing his issues. He is not ready for a once a month ride kind of life and for some reason these are the only people my ads have attracted. I make sure to save money for feed in the winter an he has farrier formula and I have a regular farrier that works on his feet. ANd as for my children... They have all they need and do not ever go without. I am smart enough with my money that I can budget for regular vet bills now that I know what he needs. I am sorry that I offended some of you by making you think this horse is not taken care of. I was raised around horses and NEVER saw my uncles or my aunts get a horses teeth floated. Thats not to say they never did it I just never saw it done. Thank you for the insight.


Im glad you realize we are trying to help you and taking in to account what we are saying.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

NewbeeTrainer said:


> And I am not on welfare. I grow a garden and I make my own bread and I butcher my own cows and I hunt my own deer and elk and dress and cut my own meat. I am not a welfare case. If I cant do it then I budget it in so I can afford it.


Horse's care cannot be "budgeted". What ever it takes to take care of the horse right no matter how much money is what should be done. And if you cannot comply with that, you shouldnt have him.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

NewbeeTrainer said:


> And I am not on welfare. I grow a garden and I make my own bread and I butcher my own cows and I hunt my own deer and elk and dress and cut my own meat. I am not a welfare case. If I cant do it then I budget it in so I can afford it.


I had to read this twice because I thought you were saying you dress yourself in the skin of the elk and deer you hunt and I was picturing a barefoot caveman leading a a crazy mustang to pasture!:shock:


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## NewbeeTrainer (Aug 22, 2011)

HAHA! Oops should have explained that better. I dress and cut the deer not myself!! Lol. And for you .Delete. I can budget for horse needs. Putting away money for rainy day accounts has always been a talent I have so I already have a rather large emergency fund. This in my opinion is an emergency so therefore I can take from that to get done what needs to be done now and keep puuting away for future emegencies.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

My mistake I thought you ment budget your horses expenses
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NewbeeTrainer (Aug 22, 2011)

Well yes after the inital is taken care of I will budget for biyearly exams and any emergency that should arise. Keeping in mind that eventually I will find a better home for him as I also agree this is not a good place for him because I am limited in time.


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

.Delete. said:


> I dont know /who/ this is directed towards but i have to disagree, i dont think anyone has been insulting. If anything everyone who has posted has been helpful. Just because some people dont take the time to word things "nicely" and dance around what they are really trying to say. Some people, like myself just get to the point, its not insulting, its not rude, its the truth.
> 
> Im slightly peeved at your post because i too have been there. I feel as if your post is claiming the other people posting on this thread haven't been there I had to sell all of my animals, not just my horses. They were my world, my first pony, my show horse, my dads horse (he cried when he left). It literally broke my heart and tore me apart to sell them. But i _knew_ i couldnt take care of them anymore. I would have given anything to be able to keep them. But it was my responsibility to realize my limits and _put their needs infront of my wants._ I _wanted_ to keep them i _wanted_ to be able to take care of them properly, but i _couldnt_. I had to accept that and so does the OP. *So she SHOULD feel bad about herself for taking on this horse fully knowing she cannot afford it*. That is wrong, that isnt fair to the horse.
> 
> The OP is being irresponsible and selfish by ignoring the fact that she cannot take proper care of this animal. To me, its border line inhumane to keep an animal you know you cannot take care of. So perhaps you could take some of my own posts as rude. Perhaps i am getting a little too emotionally involved with this thread, but I had to give up my animals, my children. So forgive me for still being a little bitter.


I think I am in love with you..............


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

=D
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

Did I not suggest she get rid of the horse?

Edit: I tried to give OP advice from the very start and told her in both my posts she was in over her head. She even admitted that. She said she had the horse up for sale. I should have PMed that to her. But I didn't point fingers. Never said that you specifically were rude. Or that anyone was rude, just that she would be put down and made to feel bad about herself. Which, if you think about it, is probably how she feels right about now. I was trying to suggest in a nice manner to her that there are other ways to be around horses without actually occurring all of the costs. Excuse me for trying my best to make the OP see different options. I didn't mean anything toward anyone specifically.


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## Jamzimm101987 (Aug 11, 2011)

equiniphile said:


> Any stallion that reared, kicked, or bit while in my presence would be gelded or sent to a trainer for a good come-to-Jesus meeting. Being a stallion is no excuse for a horse to misbehave.


My comment does not mean stallions are to be excused for misbehaving (as I never said that) as I too would geld one if they acted that way, but not after first trying to fix his issues. My comment means that you don't use euthanize a horse because he has behavior problems...unless they get so dangerously out of control.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Jamzimm101987 said:


> My comment does not mean stallions are to be excused for misbehaving (as I never said that) as I too would geld one if they acted that way, but not after first trying to fix his issues. My comment means that you don't use euthanize a horse because he has behavior problems...unless they get so dangerously out of control.


If i have a horse that is resisting training, and i feel isnt mentally all there. He is a danger to himself and others i wouldnt let it get to the point of "so dangerously out of control" i wont wait for that and risk someone getting hurt. No, i would put the horse down.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

With regard to some of the participants here saying that the OP took on the horse, and shouldn't have, I believe she said he "came with the property". So, not fair to accuse her of making a poor choice there. As far as her keeping him and choosing to do the training herself, that is a matter of her judgement and may or may not be wise, according to how you see it.
She does say that getting rid of the horse would be hard because of his current behavior problems. And she does'nt want to put him down.

The big question is whether she has enough knowledge to do this on her own, and so far, most folks think this is too dangerous. I am pretty cautious by nature, so if it were me, I'd want help.


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## Jamzimm101987 (Aug 11, 2011)

.Delete. said:


> If i have a horse that is resisting training, and i feel isnt mentally all there. He is a danger to himself and others i wouldnt let it get to the point of "so dangerously out of control" i wont wait for that and risk someone getting hurt. No, i would put the horse down.


I disagree with you. Often it is not the horse that is the problem, but the person training it. This horse has no respect for the owner and if the handler/owner/trainer can't work with it then they need to find someone who can. If the horse never improves then yes putting him down is definately an option, but you've got to give the horse a chance. Horses are herd animals and they will challenge you every day. I have seen some crazy horses turned into miracles with the right trainer. I agree that I too would not work with a dangerous animal, but depending on what the horse is worth to you and not necessarily just money wise you make a decision. Your comment makes it sounds like you wouldn't think twice about putting a horse down. Horses are not easy to train and they will try to challenge you. I guess I would go the other route and see what I could do for the horse. Problem people, not typically problem horses, but there are occasionally those horses out there that cannot be trained.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Jamzimm101987 said:


> I disagree with you. Often it is not the horse that is the problem, but the person training it. This horse has no respect for the owner and if the handler/owner/trainer can't work with it then they need to find someone who can. If the horse never improves then yes putting him down is definately an option, but you've got to give the horse a chance. Horses are herd animals and they will challenge you every day. I have seen some crazy horses turned into miracles with the right trainer. I agree that I too would not work with a dangerous animal, but depending on what the horse is worth to you and not necessarily just money wise you make a decision. Your comment makes it sounds like you wouldn't think twice about putting a horse down. Horses are not easy to train and they will try to challenge you. I guess I would go the other route and see what I could do for the horse. Problem people, not typically problem horses, but there are occasionally those horses out there that cannot be trained.


From a trainers point of view, a horse that resists your training and your way of doing things is a waste of time and money. Its a business and should be handled as such. I would either give it back to the owner or if i owned such and animal get rid of it.

There ARE mentally unstable horses that simply cannot be handled safely and resist training in generally. In that case, i would put the horse down and not think twice about it.


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

Jamzimm101987 said:


> My comment does not mean stallions are to be excused for misbehaving (as I never said that) as I too would geld one if they acted that way, but not after first trying to fix his issues. My comment means that you don't use euthanize a horse because he has behavior problems...unless they get so dangerously out of control.


She does not have the experience to train this horse.
She does not have the money for a trainer for this horse.
She has young kids that could easily be hurt, or even _killed_ by a dangerous horse.

Why take the risk? There are many, many good, sane horses in the world. Why risk your family over a bad egg?

Just because a horse is made some way by his training does not make him not dangerous. It's a hard reality, but horses often pay for the consequences of bad training.


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

Jamzimm101987 said:


> I disagree with you. Often it is not the horse that is the problem, but the person training it. This horse has no respect for the owner and if the handler/owner/trainer can't work with it then they need to find someone who can. If the horse never improves then yes putting him down is definately an option, but you've got to give the horse a chance. Horses are herd animals and they will challenge you every day. I have seen some crazy horses turned into miracles with the right trainer. I agree that I too would not work with a dangerous animal, but depending on what the horse is worth to you and not necessarily just money wise you make a decision. Your comment makes it sounds like you wouldn't think twice about putting a horse down. Horses are not easy to train and they will try to challenge you. I guess I would go the other route and see what I could do for the horse. Problem people, not typically problem horses, but there are occasionally those horses out there that cannot be trained.


 I totally agree. People get set in their way of training and when a horse doesn't get it, they call it a problem horse. That's why I try to be open to different ways to teach a horse. One way may work on most horses, but you need to have an alternative way when it doesn't work.

Call me crazy but I like a challenge when working with horses. I *would* like to work with this horse. I'm not an expert by any means but I don't think the horse (or any horse) is a lost cause. They just need the right person to work with them.


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## NewbeeTrainer (Aug 22, 2011)

She does not have the experience to train this horse.
She does not have the money for a trainer for this horse.
She has young kids that could easily be hurt, or even _killed_ by a dangerous horse.

*Why take the risk? There are many, many good, sane horses in the world. Why risk your family over a bad egg?

Just because a horse is made some way by his training does not make him not dangerous. It's a hard reality, but horses often pay for the consequences of bad training*

OK this one I take offense to. I may not be to horse smart and I may have got more than I had expected to get by joining this forum but I am NOT a bad mother. I only work with Shooter at nap time so my children aren't around if he gets away from me and I would NEVER let them anywhaere near him if he was in a rowdy mood. Some you people sit here and make assumptions of people and think it is your right to judge how a person does something. I didnt come here to be judged or persecuted for trying to do the right thing I came here for tips on how to train him so he isnt so wild and crazy. I know enough about horses to stay out of his way and how to read his ears and body movements so I know what his next move is going to be. My children are my life and Shooter is just another child with no parent to teach him the ropes. I live in a place where I get to see wild horses living a wild life with no trainers, no vets, no bug spray or ferriers and they are the strongest most beautiful things I have ever seen. Granted none of them get rode or bits used on them but they survive through tougher things. I have an uncle who used to rodeo and he says Shooter has such great potential that if he had more time spent on him and My uncle wasnt so old he would buy him. Unfortanatly for me he works to much now to help me so I came here looking for help. I learned quite a few new things and am grateful for that but I cannot believe the instant put him down advice. He is not dangerous he is misunderstood. I want to try to understand him. Why is it so hard for those of you who think putting him down is my only option to understand that concept? 

And for those of you with sound advice I thank you. He is a good boy and he does deserve the best. And when I find a proper( meaning not someone who wants to put him in a stable and only ride him once a year) buyer then I will let him go as heartbreaking as that will be. I love my horse but I want whats best for him. Not death and not a beating and not someone else to give up on him.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

I have been around horses for longer than many of the forum members have been alive.

I too think I have the ability to read my horses.

That does not even slightly make them safe to work with, ever.
Assuming you know enough to always be safe is one of the biggest mistakes a person can make and it only proves they truly do not know what they are doing.

I wish you much luck with your horse.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

NewbeeTrainer said:


> My children are my life and Shooter is just another child with no parent to teach him the ropes.


Horses are NOT childern. They are animals. As much as I love my four legged critters (horses, cattle, cats and the dog) they are not my childern. They do not have the ability to reason. They can be trained to understand action and reaction but they cannot reason through "If I stomp you into the ground, I don't get fed therefore I won't do that"


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## NewbeeTrainer (Aug 22, 2011)

Yes I agree. But to a point my five year old cant understand reason either. If I say be good today and you can have a treat she will still misbehave and then wonder why she didnt get any treats that day. I do not treat my horse as I do my chldren but he needs love and understanding and a good teacher just like my children do. Thats why I say he to is my child. Because I try to show him understanding and try to teach him. ( only with a louder voice and different treats)


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Your five year old can not easily kill you.


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## NewbeeTrainer (Aug 22, 2011)

True enough.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Didn't she pay a trainer? Then I'd be questioning the trainer. Unless someone is on their doorstep almost daily, how is one to know if the trainer actually did anything other than take your money. It's time for an accounting. I don't think these are "stallion" issues. I think it's a case of the horse figuring out the owner.


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## QH Gunner (Aug 16, 2011)

I dont think it's right to throw her kids in this, or even imply that she's not keeping them safe, that would **** me off if I were her. I'm not here to argue, but I have a horse my friend has given to me for a few months, bc he strikes out when he doesn't wanna do anything- gentlemen otherwise, horrible on the ground. I have a five year old, & I know.. By NO means, am I putting him in danger. & I'd flip if anyone told me so. Maybe she can't handle him or whatever, but she said she's tried to find him a good home, the right home, which I respect, she's not sending him to just anyone, & she's not putting him down, which was just a stupid response to this whole issue anyway. I'm sure the horse is more taken care of then if she were to just give it to the first random person who wanted him. 
No matter what our opinions are & what we think she should or shouldn't do, bringing her children in it was wrong. I also agree that it's not stallion issues. It's him doin what he wants (like he probably always has) & getting mad when someone tries to make him do anything else
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

.delete. said:


> get a trainer or get rid of the horse. You're in a very dangerous situation


please take this advice!!!!!!!!


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

QH Gunner said:


> I dont think it's right to throw her kids in this, or even imply that she's not keeping them safe, that would **** me off if I were her.


Not defending anyone - but sometimes the 'shock' factor can rattle folks enough to see the whole picture.

I have been around horses for more years than I care to admit. I am not *allowed* to work on green horses without someone around to spot me. Not helping, not watching - merely in the vicinity in case sometime happens. Think of this - she is working the horse while the kids are napping - horse decides to be extra obnoxious that day - mom is knocked out - kids wake up alone . . .


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## QH Gunner (Aug 16, 2011)

I can see your point to an extent, I don't really work with a green unless someone is at the farm somewhere, by my own choice, but idk- maybe it woulda been better to state that fact in a whatif situation, not just kinda imply it. I felt bad for her at that point. She came for help, & she got some- along with harsh critique. Which, about the horse.. Fine. Idont think it's Ohkay about her as a mother. That wasn't what the post was about. & I understand that danger is there, I feel as if tho the thought could have been worded better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jamzimm101987 (Aug 11, 2011)

usandpets said:


> I totally agree. People get set in their way of training and when a horse doesn't get it, they call it a problem horse. That's why I try to be open to different ways to teach a horse. One way may work on most horses, but you need to have an alternative way when it doesn't work.
> 
> Call me crazy but I like a challenge when working with horses. I *would* like to work with this horse. I'm not an expert by any means but I don't think the horse (or any horse) is a lost cause. They just need the right person to work with them.


LIKE LIKE LIKE!! This is what I am talking about. Sometimes it is that the horse is mentally unstable, but does anyone ever consider that it is the training method being used that is making the horse the way it is? Think about it people, if a horse knows he can walk all over you, he's **** well going to do that. You don't just euthanize a horse because one person can't train him. That is sickening. If he is the same way with multiple trainers, then it's likely the horse, but there have been many horses with training problems that HAVE been turned around and showed their true talent.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

*He doesnt rear or kick while I am holding him. HE spins himself in circles which suits me fine cause I just keep him spinning until he gets tired and calms down. He does however kick and buck once let out and he is away from me.*
Well don't let him do anything stupid because I think he is treating you as if you have absolutely no control over his actions and he has a "you're not the boss of me" attitude. Make him stand politely, even out in pasture when you are in his space. Definitely do some little exercises to get him to stand quietly by the gate. First, make sure the other horses aren't going to cause problems.. get him to stand quietly facing the gate while it is closed. Once he has done that, open the gate and make him stand still. If he tries to leap forward, send him back by putting pressure on the bottom of his halter (where the lead rope starts) towards his chest until he backs up, then release. Make him stand there quietly until he stops fussing. When he is quiet, ask him to politely walk with you and do a half circle (gently not fast or crazy) so his nose and your body are facing the other side of the gate.. and stand there for awhile. If he tries to rear or buck, reprimand him then and there, until he is standing quietly. 

Make sure to rub his face and neck and tell him he is doing good. His neck should be low and relaxed and YOUR BODY should be 'big' and 'tall' like a leader. 

Now to send him off from where you're at, untie his halter and put it all into your right hand (if you are on his left side) and your left (if you are on his right side) then use your other hand to block his nose.. like you are putting up a stop sign. Give him a click and use the halter to send him off, as you would your leg. As you send him off, back away slowly, giving him room and don't turn your back on him UNTIL he leaves. 

Every time you do this.. keep in mind SPACE.. keep his rear away from you. and keep in mind you need to be calm, and make sure he is calm before you let him go.


*Before last nights session I had a normal run of the mill halter with a buckle by the ear. This morning I used a rope halter on him as it makes him pay a little closer attention. What Kind should I be using?

*It all depends on the horse. I cannot stress this fact enough  It sounds to me, though, that your horse would do well in a rope halter so he can really FEEL what you're asking him to do. Just be warned, rope halters can be very harsh if you are harsh with them. Just like web halters can be very awful if you have no clue how to respectfully operate one. Be soft at first, then increase until you get a response. It should become lighter and lighter.

I have my horse in rope and I don't even have to touch his halter. I've worked with him in that he knows if my hand goes forward, his nose follows it. If I slow my body and my hand comes back, he slows and stops. I rarely touch his halter, he feels all he needs to feel in what I am doing with the rope.
*
I make him walk at an arms length from me and I walk on both sides of him. I do a figure eight on the left then I do the figure eight backwards on the right. I have read that you must work both sides of a horse. Is this proper?*

It's good to have space, just make sure your hand isn't just dragging him along by being by your side. When you lead a horse, you need to be active if you expect them to be active. It's good to work your horse from both sides, but it's also good to be able to manage them from both sides. Like if you horse were to try to run off.. would you pull? I spin the rope so that it creates a barrier for my horse to run into. He learned very fast to stay by my side and not barrel into me etc. It's not mean either.. it's just like building a brick wall.. they decide whether to respect it, or slam into it.
*
He does understand pressure and release. If he is corraled for more than two days without his buddies I can make him back up and turn left and right without halter or lead by just putting pressure on chest, left side and right side.* 

Well that's good, but what about on the daily? Does he listen or does he act up when around his buddies? I think doing more ground work, working on handling from the ground.. will help you both a lot. Pretty soon you won't need to even touch him 
*

Yesterday was the first day I actually took him out of his corral. At first he was excited and tried to bolt out the gate. I just snapped his rope told him "whoa" in a firm voice and after ten minutes of not being allowed through the open gate he calmed down enough to walk out. Once out he again got excited so we walked in circles until he was ready to stand then I allowed him to eat. He lead wonderfully after that until I tried to take him back in then he got excited again so we repeated the process until he walked in and out of the gate calmly.* 

Well that's good  I see you actively trying to remain in control without over crowding him.. good. But what I can tell is that his mind goes everywhere... everywhere except on you. He needs to have more focus... so when he's being silly, ask him to do things like sidepass on lead and turn or back up. But challenge yourself to begin strong, and ask softer and softer every time.

Also don't make it into a drill. Do it in random places, at random times, in no particular pattern. Ask him to drop his head by placing one hand on his poll and one hand on the bridge of his nose (where the cavesson would be) and apply as much pressure as he is applying to you. Teach him to move away from pressure. Lowering his neck will also cause him to relax. If your horse braces (pushes against and refuses to go down) then keep putting as much pressure as he is giving. It may take a long while, but eventually he'll soften..and that's when you soften. And eventually, you won't have to ask forever, he'll gently move away from the lightest touch and he'll feel a lot more relaxed.

Word of warning, STAY WITH HIM. If his head goes left, your hands go with him. Horses at first will be very confused as to why there is this pressure on their heads and it takes them awhile to figure out. Just relax and go with it 

Once your horse is nice and focused and calming down, that's when you reward for grass. Don't let him snatch down. Stand right above a nice patch of grass, wait a few seconds, telling him off if he goes down (usually I tap with a rope or swing infront of them) until he is standing politely, then guide your hand down to the grass and let him eat.

These changes won't happen lickity split, but you will see such a difference with just a little bit of this every day  


Sorry for the late reply... !


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

I _am_ sorry about the jab about your kids being hurt. I didn't mean to imply that you are a bad mother by any means, I simply meant to point out that a dangerous horse is a dangerous horse to anyone, _especially_ young kids, and to consider that when making your decision.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

While Skye gave you a great tutorial on ground handling , if you have never done these things, it's really hard to do them purely from reading about them. But if I remember correctly, you have some experience with horse. Just maybe not this sort of handling technique? 
I was a bit irked at the mention of your children, as I am sure you keep them clear of a wild horse and no one likes aspertions to their parenting skills.

However, there is another way to look at that part about the children, and this is what my husband used to tell me when my kids were small and I was starting in horses: "you have kids to raise, so you can't afford to go get yoursel seriously hurt!" 

That is always a risk that we horse people take, every time we mount up on the slowest and calmest of plugs. But if the little voice in your head is shouting , telling you that you are in "danger , Will Robinson" (from an old TV show), please allow yourself to listen. You and your children are worth more than ANY horse, many times over.

I wish I had concrete advice to offer. I liked Skye's advice, and I would suggest that maybe giving treats be eliminated for a bit. If you continue to try to train him on your own, would you be interested in posting a video?


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

I think one of these days I'll make a few videos of how I handle my horse because a lot of people have trouble with it and the way I have taught myself from different techniques really works so *shrug*

I agree on not giving treats... treats backfire so easily. I think a good rubdown is miles better for them anyway


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## QH Gunner (Aug 16, 2011)

I'm with the no treats, as well. Grooming, rubdowns stuff like that is a reward & helps you bond. I agree with sky's tactics too (video's are a cool idea) I have no exact method, just stuff thru different people & trying that I felt worked. 

I think with patience this horse COULD be a good guy. You just have to assert yourself  There's a difference between being rough, & strict.  

Tiny- my bf tells me the same all the time!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

I think he's just being a horse..  Definitely see you and him working it out.. just don't let your kids anywhere near him until he is done being green and not as sensitive. We don't want anyone hurt!

And yes I will try and see if I can start some sort of video feed. I'm already writing a little book about ground work and riding.. though I am very great at teaching people to ride, I am a work in progress (; haha


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## NewbeeTrainer (Aug 22, 2011)

SKYE>>>> Thank you for the GREAT advice. Most of these things I already do ie: making him stand patiently until I say its ok to move, and making him back up when he disobeys of misbehaves. The few things I didnt know ie: *Now to send him off from where you're at, untie his halter and put it all into your right hand (if you are on his left side) and your left (if you are on his right side) then use your other hand to block his nose.. like you are putting up a stop sign. Give him a click and use the halter to send him off, as you would your leg. As you send him off, back away slowly, giving him room and don't turn your back on him UNTIL he leaves...* I am greatful for this. Every little bit of advice to make the big picture work is greatly appreciated.

As for the concern about me getting hurt while my kids are napping, before I go out each day I call my neighbour. She and I have a thing where I call her, let her know I am going out with Shooter and if I dont call her again in two hours to let her know I am done she comes over to check on things. ( I have forgotten a couple time and she has always come right at the two hour mark) 

I have also been using the "bag on a stick" method. I tir a plastic bag on the end of a stick and hold out to my side. I watch SHooters reaction. If he seems scared of it I do not move it at all. Once he comes up to see what it is I slowly rub it up his legs and down his back and basically all over until he is calm and accepts the bag on him. If he begins to move away from the bag or seems agitated by it i move it away again until he comes to it. I learned this from one of my aunts. Have any of you tried or heard of this technique and what are your views on it??


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

While I think that's great, I feel like you should also be actively encorportating other ways of "sacking out" your horse, not just with it on a stick, but rubbing it with your hand inside, etc. While you DO need to be careful, if you have it always tied onto a whip or a stick or a broom, you're always so far from him and he needs to know that his leader isn't scared of it also. It may sound weird, but I was told to tie a scarf on a stick and rub my horse down with it.. he'd go nowhere near it or be very sketchy until I took the scarf in my hand, rubbed myself down with it, and rubbed him with it when it was in my hand.

Horses are goofy.. but be careful  I'd have your sacking out tool (bag + stick) off in the distance and let him sniff it in his own time when he's in a big enough but enclosed space. Then you can start approaching him with it. Do too much close-up without him having a chance to explore it himself... and you get a very bolty spooky horse.


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## NewbeeTrainer (Aug 22, 2011)

I press my body into his as I rub the bag on him. Say I am rubbing the bag down his back then I will pet his neck with the other hand. And i never put the bag on him until he has checked it out first. I dont move it at all until he is okay with it. ie doesnt move or flinch when he sniffs it. My neighbours went to a show where they trained new foals with this method and the foals were rideable in just four hours. (One hour a day for four days) Mind you these people doing the training were very advanced and knew just how to react to the horses reactions but but thats still amazing! So I been trying it out and it seems Shooter is coming around. He is less paniky now and after a full week of time with him he is leaving gates better and isnt so hot tempered when I am working with him. He still wont let me saddle him but I have been bringing the saddle out every day and just putting it ona tarp in the middle of the corral. We walk by it and around it but i never go near it. I let him check it out if he wants and then carry on our routine. Is this a good way of getting him used to the saddle without it just being tossed on his back??


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Yeah it's a good way, though why set it on a tarp? I think that kind of makes the saddle a little more intense to approach  Also try the saddle on different levels... ground, chair, fence, really high up..etc.
So if you go near him with a saddle, does he move or is it only when you put it on his back? If it's while you approach, he probably thinks saddle = pain or saddle = work or something negative. So you need to make the saddle something pleasant. Maybe sack him out with the saddle, and offer a little bowl of grain or a flake of hay for taking it. If it's only on his back, my horse did this too.. so I practice putting it high in the air next to him and then patting him before lowering it back down next to him. When he could handle that, I gently set it on his back, wait a second, then take it off before he had a chance to react. You're trying to make the saddle pleasant, and good things happen when he wears the saddle, or even sees the saddle. You want your horse to WANT to work with you, to ride, and just to lead with you.. not whinnying and bolting off the other direction, or offering a kick or two.
What is your opinion about why he is rejecting the saddle?


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## NewbeeTrainer (Aug 22, 2011)

*why set it on a tarp?
*Because I read this is a form of sacking out the horse. Placing the tarp in spots around your work area and making the horse walk over it and around it until he is no longer jumpy or afraid, on a fence when the wind is blowing, folding it up and placing it on his back while walking around. etc...
*if you go near him with a saddle, does he move or is it only when you put it on his back?*
WHen I bring the saddle into the corral he is ears up and sloly backs away from me. I usually walk just inside the gate and stand there holiding the saddle till he comes up to me. After that as long as I dont move the saddle he is ok but if I try to put it on him he backs away or turns his *** end away from me. Again I just stand there with his lead rope in hand and dont move till he stands still. Once the saddle is on his back he stands calmly and lets me do it all up. Its just the initial getting the saddle to his back that is an issue.
*What is your opinion about why he is rejecting the saddle?* 
In all honesty I believe his saddle issues stem from the fact that he gets saddled in the summer only and only when I had time. He just needs more time. I sent him to my aunts trainer last year for a month as I said before and when I got him home he was a dream to saddle but because I didnt ride him or pay much attention at all to him in the winter besides catching him for the ferrier he regressed again. He is a the type of horse that NEEDS constant attention and training to make him really take to what he is taught. The one time he bucked while I was riding him I hadnt rode him for a week and I hadnt had time to properly clean his cinch and blanket ( I was showing him and the people looking to buy were in a hurry and just wanted to see him rode) and I believe there was a bur or something that hurt him so he bucked. He had never bucked before and I ALWAYS fine tooth comb his tack before I put it on him.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Well every horse needs that consistency else they regress to just being a horse, instead of being a _trained _horse. Though I wouldn't put the saddle on the tarp if just seeing the saddle and it getting closer to him puts him on edge. It's good to sack him out with a tarp but do it the wrong way and you can make him scared of it moreso than he started out. 
I'm sure you know you shouldn't ever rush anything with a horse, so I won't drill you on that 
As for backing away... part of it is resistance. He knows saddle on= work or = human on my back. Don't ever try to saddle a loose horse because then they learn they can just run away from it and that it's okay. Kind of like when you're bathing your horse and it's running crazily away from the hose (some horses do this) you have to firmly make the horse ho and gently ease the water on the horse. Kind of the same with the saddle. You make the horse stand. When he stands and he is on lead, start approaching him with the saddle. As soon as he backs, stop. Make him come back, and then try again until you can get the saddle on his back without a single foot moving. Always remember to back off when he backs up. You don't want to chase him with a saddle cause that won't make him stand still. You have to back off, get him standing (sometimes asking him to take a step forward back to where he was) and then work on getting it on with no problems. 

But please, in future, clean your tack and check it well!


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## NewbeeTrainer (Aug 22, 2011)

Hello Everyone!! Well I am pleased to announce that after a few months of serious horse time Shooter sheped up to be a real fine young man. I can now open any gate and he will camly walk through it without kicking or running at all!! I found a buyer for him who knows all the inns and outs of him thus far and has agreed to send him to a proper trainer for more hands on time. The day she came to look at him he saddled like a dream and he trailered like he had been doing it his whole life!! I am sad to see him go but he needed a better home than I could give him. He had his vaccinations and got his teeth checked and he didnt even flinch at the vet!! So really good news all around. Thank you all so much for your advice and wisdom!


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## haleylvsshammy (Jun 29, 2010)

Glad to hear that the situation turned out nicely!


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

NewbeeTrainer said:


> Hello Everyone!! Well I am pleased to announce that after a few months of serious horse time Shooter sheped up to be a real fine young man. I can now open any gate and he will camly walk through it without kicking or running at all!! I found a buyer for him who knows all the inns and outs of him thus far and has agreed to send him to a proper trainer for more hands on time. The day she came to look at him he saddled like a dream and he trailered like he had been doing it his whole life!! I am sad to see him go but he needed a better home than I could give him. He had his vaccinations and got his teeth checked and he didnt even flinch at the vet!! So really good news all around. Thank you all so much for your advice and wisdom!


I only just came back to this thread... well done NewbeeTrainer!  Knew you could do it!


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