# critique and bit question



## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Last year I was using a ported english bit to show, I think this is the one:









I wanted to go with something less severe so I switched to a d-ring snaffle for this weekends show but I feel like I was really in his mouth, which is one of the critiques I'm asking for along with eq and movement. I will post more pix as I get them but this is all I have for now:

















I'm thinking it might actually be beneficial to switch to something more like this one because, while it's not as mild, I would not be nagging and bumping, it's a lot of money though...:

Myler Level 3 Dee w/ Hooks - D-Rings from SmartPak Equine

for kicks, a western pick. HORRIBLE I know...


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

FP, I'm no expert in the discipline you were showing in, but shouldn't you have aligned hands there as well? I mean rein - hand - arm all in one line. Was he bracing against you?


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

kitten_Val said:


> FP, I'm no expert in the discipline you were showing in, but shouldn't you have aligned hands there as well? I mean rein - hand - arm all in one line. Was he bracing against you?


I'm confused, so my hands are OK or not OK? He's not really bracing but I'm "bumping" I think?


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## Sahara (Jul 23, 2010)

They are pretty similar bits. The Myler offers a bit more comfort as it doesn't have the same "corners" as the c port, but, fundamentally they will have a similar action. You may get some independent side movement for shoulder control with the Myler bit. 

Why do you think it is more severe than the snaffle? Some horses respond well to the toungue relief offered by the ported bit.


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## Sahara (Jul 23, 2010)

farmpony84 said:


> I'm confused, so my hands are OK or not OK? He's not really bracing but I'm "bumping" I think?


Reins and forearms should create a straight line from bit to elbow. Your line is broken.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Sahara said:


> Reins and forearms should create a straight line from bit to elbow. Your line is broken.


So position more like in the western pic?


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Sahara said:


> They are pretty similar bits. The Myler offers a bit more comfort as it doesn't have the same "corners" as the c port, but, fundamentally they will have a similar action. You may get some independent side movement for shoulder control with the Myler bit.
> 
> Why do you think it is more severe than the snaffle? Some horses respond well to the toungue relief offered by the ported bit.


 
I just always assumed a port was severe? I don't use a chain with that do I?


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Your hands in your English photos are too far apart and way down in your lap. They should not be below your horse's withers.


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## Sahara (Jul 23, 2010)

farmpony84 said:


> I just always assumed a port was severe? I don't use a chain with that do I?


A chin strap is not required with this type of bit. It has very minor leverage action because of the cheekpiece hooks and rein hooks, but not nearly enough to engage a chin strap. I don't see how a chin strap would serve a functional purpose on either of the bits you posted.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Sahara said:


> A chin strap is not required with this type of bit. It has very minor leverage action because of the cheekpiece hooks and rein hooks, but not nearly enough to engage a chin strap. I don't see how a chin strap would serve a functional purpose on either of the bits you posted.


Wow. I used a chain on the first bit I posted. I've seen a lot of people do it so I _assumed_. So it should work without the chain, which would make me happy but it would give me the preasure I need to lower the poll right?

I think the above pix are very much how I ride daily but just to understand (this is a horrible picture from statefair) are my hands more correct here? Still broken though...right?


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## Sahara (Jul 23, 2010)

I take that back. I just looked at my Myler book and you can use a chain on this bit. On the English version, there is a small hole behind the top slot/hook for a curb chain. 

If you use the rein hook you will have indirect rein action. And a curb chain is recommended for the ported mouthpiece. Obviously, if you do not use the rein hook you will have a direct reining action.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

They are still too low if you ask me.

Note from your elbow to your hand is one angle and from your hand to the horse's mouth is another angle.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Why do I get the feeling this is not going to be an "easy fix"? I am still trying to picture in my mind where my hands should be.

This is me again (older pic - summer before last I think?) I'm not sure why my fingers were like that, I hope I close them! But better angle but still higher?


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Sahara said:


> Reins and forearms should create a straight line from bit to elbow. Your line is broken.


Yes, thank you. That's how you ride in dressage, just wasn't sure if it's the same for HUS (I believe that's what Riley was shown in).


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Alwaysbehind said:


> They are still too low if you ask me.
> 
> Note from your elbow to your hand is one angle and from your hand to the horse's mouth is another angle.


I agree.

FP, I tried to find a pic Kayty posted while back, which was a perfect example of correct hands position, and unfortunately I couldn't. So I run into other one instead: http://www.horseforum.com/dressage/how-tell-good-dressage-bad-dressage-79614/page3/#post944352 . Look how her arm and rein are straight all way to the bit - no angles.


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## Tymer (Dec 28, 2009)

Actually, a quick google search of "hunter under saddle" in images reveals very few people with a perfectly straight line (180 degree angle) from elbow to bit. However, most angles of the (what appears to be) the more advanced riders peak at about 150 degrees. Yours, on the other hand, is quite pronounced. I think that raising your hands a few inches to remedy this without changing anything drastically.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

A port on a snaffle with no leverage (Like the first bit pictured) isn't going to do much control wise - it is only going to offer the horse some tongue relief. If he was going well in that, he may well just prefer the tongue relief. It's only when you add leverage, that the mouthpiece rotates which turns the port upwards and can hit the roof of the mouth.


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## Sahara (Jul 23, 2010)

If she attaches the reins through the rein hooks on the bottom of the D ring, she will get minor leverage action and the port will come into play. If she doesn't use the rein hooks, then the port will not act on the palate because the reins will just slide around the cheekpiece of the bit.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

fp, here's one photo that may help, I'll look for more -


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Also this:


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Ok, the pix help alot! thanks. I have a feeling this is going to be hard for me to fix. UGH!


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## MudPaint (Aug 14, 2010)

A bit is also only as severe as the hands that ride it. If your horse rides light and content in a ported bit with a chain but rides heavy and causes you to have to be on his mouth with a simple snaffle... I'd stick to the port. But if you have to haul on his mouth in the port, it's time to go back to a simple snaffle and retrain him to accept the light contact.

Regarding you arms, I think this is an all too common fault seen in the AQHA ring. It has a lot to do with the way the horses are trained, which is then taught to the riders. However, lifting your hands, will lift you at the chest and tip your seat back (truly all good things in most cases). Done correctly, with leg will actually bring your horse onto his haunches and give you a round way of going, rather than a long/flat. But if you are riding AQHA, this isn't what usually pins. So you will need to find a happy medium between your riding and what works in the pen.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

farmpony84 said:


> I have a feeling this is going to be hard for me to fix. UGH!


Actually it's not. As long as you keep hands little higher it'll fix itself. :wink:


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

The Myler is the better bit, and ideally would not be used with a curb. It has a different and better action than the original correction port you posted, with independent side movement, full barrel rotation, and more tongue relief.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

To the OP your horse looks like a WP horse not an English one, and you want to go to more of a western bit. You need to bring up your hands and support your horse.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Tymer, 

The problem with Google image search in this case is that is brings up a lot of breed show "Hunt Seat." The problem the OP is experiencing is pretty common in riders that switch back and forth between English and Western. Particularly in QH breed shows, where the "hunters" travel with more of a WP topline and headset, but move out at the trot more like an English horse. 

A broken line from bit to elbow is *never* correct. But I do agree with you, I had to do a lot of searching to find the photos I posted showing correct position. It's sad that the dropped hand is so common, but common doesn not = correct. 

I have a great lesson plan for riders beginning to ride on contact to demonstrate to them how changes in hand postion change the contact and change what the horse is feeling; if you ride with a true following hand, the correct hand and arm position gives you the steadiest, most consistent contact. 

There's a technique of widening and dropping your hands to steady the contact and invite the horse to come on to the bit that's widely mistaught and misused; some riders become overreliant on it and end up with the lowered hand and arm/broken line between bit and elbow. They also end up riding with constant downward pressure on the bars on the horse's mouth, which defeats the whole purpose.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

MudPaint said:


> A bit is also only as severe as the hands that ride it. If your horse rides light and content in a ported bit with a chain but rides heavy and causes you to have to be on his mouth with a simple snaffle... I'd stick to the port. But if you have to haul on his mouth in the port, it's time to go back to a simple snaffle and retrain him to accept the light contact.


That was my line of thinking. I am really tugging and bumping with the snaffle which i would assume would make his mouth more sore than if I were to use a ported bit that only takes a squeeze of the fingers. 



bubba13 said:


> The Myler is the better bit, and ideally would not be used with a curb. It has a different and better action than the original correction port you posted, with independent side movement, full barrel rotation, and more tongue relief.


Do you think I can get out of his mouth more with the mylar the way I would a snaffle? I think he likes the broken mouth pieces better and I assume they are less harsh?



AlexS said:


> To the OP your horse looks like a WP horse not an English one, and you want to go to more of a western bit. You need to bring up your hands and support your horse.


.
Do you mean he looks WP by conformation and movement or by the way I have him going? (He is a WP horse)



maura said:


> Tymer,
> 
> The problem with Google image search in this case is that is brings up a lot of breed show "Hunt Seat." The problem the OP is experiencing is pretty common in riders that switch back and forth between English and Western. Particularly in QH breed shows, where the "hunters" travel with more of a WP topline and headset, but move out at the trot more like an English horse.
> 
> ...


And that is what I'm doing right? Does he appear to be moving from the rear correctly or do I have low head and forehand movement?


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

You might be able to ride on lighter contact and with subtler cues, at least. The first bit you posted really does not even provide any tongue relief to speak of, because the port is so narrow. And because there are no joints, it's hard to work on one side of the horse's mouth at a time. Every time you pull back it just rotates that port upwards to his palate, so I'm guessing he gapes and fights? Now, it is more of a Western-type bit, so it's what he's used to, but a ported bit like that really shouldn't be ridden on constant contact, as you do in the English disciplines.

Or maybe I misread and he fights the regular jointed snaffle but not the first bit. If so, that's because the first bit is indeed what he's used to and comfortable with, being a WP horse. Lots of broke Western horses really don't like the action of regular snaffles. The rotation of the mouthpiece with a shanked or slotted bit is what they prefer, but in either case, the Myler is the best bit of the bunch, in my opinion.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

FP, it's impossible to tell from a still photo; I would need to see a video.

I can tell you that if you're using that technique, you only do it for a second or two if the horse rises above the bit, and you bring your hands back together as soon as the horse gives and drops his head. So if you're consistently riding with the straight line between bit and elbow broken downward while riding on contact, no, you're not using that technique correctly, and you are putting constant downward pressure on the bars of his mouth. 

I am not sure if this question was directed to Alex or me, but I'll try to answer:



> Do you mean he looks WP by conformation and movement or by the way I have him going?


  This is sort of a discipline-centric thing. Your horse, even when under English tack, travels with his head and neck below the level of his withers. This is something that I consider a WP topline and headset, because I'm comparing it to USEF hunters. If you look at photos of USEF hunters, you'll never see the head and neck that low - the horses move in something a little less than a training level dressage frame, with the head and neck above the withers and slight flexion at the poll, face slighty ahead of vertical. Now, the topline and headset you're showing may be the rule in QH hunters, I don't have enough experience in that discipline to say. But to my raised-on-AHSA-hunters eye, he looks like a WP horse that someone put an English saddle on and asked to move out at the trot. But that's *my* bias. Your horse looks soft, supple, relaxed; and he may be exactly what pins in QH hunter classes, realistically, you can't ask a horse to travel with a WP headset in one class and look like a USEF hunter in the next.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

From the photos I have of this show it looks like I'm fairly consistant with my hands so I'll work on raising them and try to get pix in a couple weeks (when I'm certain I've made the correction). Here is a canter photo. Holding my hands down and apart like that is probably annoying for him huh? Does it take away from his abilty to bend and correctly move?


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

In that photo, the straight line is only broken slightly downward. 

The real problem is that your reins are too long and your hands are in your lap. The hands in lap thing has also made your elbow pop out. 

Your reins should be at least 4 - 5" shorter, and your hands should be clearly in front of the saddle pad, so your hand and arm can softly follow from your elbow, which should be close by your side. 

It's difficult to tell because of the angle of the photo, but he also looks a little behind the vertical. Are you working the bit in his mouth as this point?

Again, this is my AHSA/USEF perspective. If someone who rides in AQHA shows tells you this is what you should look like, go with their advice over mine. 

I would recommend looking at some photos on the COTH website, and going out on Amazon, and looking at the preview pages for any of the George Morris or Anna Jane White Mullen books for hunter seat on the flat photos.


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## MudPaint (Aug 14, 2010)

Maura you are dead on in your assumption. The OP is actually closer to the AQHA rules than most horses you will see. The poll is not supposed up be below the withers. Often you'll see horses in a WP set though just in english tack. AQHA has been working to improve this for the last ten years... it's a slow go. 

FarmPony, Muara's advice is dead on... your reins are just too long. If you shorten them, you will find it easier to carry your hands correctly. If you are going to switch to more contact, I would recommend the Myler bit or the snaffle, as the first with the moon port is not meant for constant pressure. The Myler bit should have similar action but allow you to lift/turn a shoulder. You should be able to bend easier than in the correction bit. Also riding with shorter contact will give you a better feel and require less movement to correct or ask for something.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I'm really glad I asked for opinions on this one guys as I was about to order LONGER reins thinking that mine were too short! I'm really going to work this. I'm going to either order the myler bit or run to my local tack shop and pick one up and then I'm going to raise my hands and pull my shoulders back. Hopefully in the next couple weeks I can get new shots and see what you guys think.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

What maura said... (and you definitely don't need longer reins  ). 

FP, do you only do flat or jumping is also included in those competitions? (just curious)


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

kitten_Val said:


> What maura said... (and you definitely don't need longer reins  ).
> 
> FP, do you only do flat or jumping is also included in those competitions? (just curious)


They do have jumping classes at many of them, this one definitely had them and I would geuss they were around 2'6 or higher. Riley is only 5 this year so I have not started him over fences and probably will never jump him with his previous pelvis injury. The horse they have there that jump are english only horses....


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