# 9 month old Georgian Grande



## TheLastUnicorn

Just because I am curious what others have to say, and a bit bored... Go ahead and dissect this guy and tear my barn blinders off!

His info: 9 months old (yeah, I know... Foals aren't easy... And some things may change, But give it a whirl!), about 14 something hands. Saddlebred sire, Clydesdale dam. He will be gelded as soon as we get some weather that isn't so wet. 

This was his first time being asked to "set up" and still a bit of a work in progress. 




























... I do have a hind shot somewhere... Can't find it right now so we'll go with what I've got for now.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Very upright shoulder and a tad over at the knee, but overall, I really like him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Elana

What are your plans for him? His shoulder is upright and he is over at the knee and tied in at the knee (in these pictures). His neck ties to his chest low. His point of shoulder is low and the humerus lays a bit flat. He is knock knee'd in front. His feet do not look like the correct trim but that is hard to tell.

Do you have photos of the sire and dam?


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## blue eyed pony

What Drafty said.

He also -may- be a little bit upright behind, but that might just be the photos. Those cannons will be lovely and short, and I love his pastern length, though they look a bit upright in one of the pics.

That shoulder is lovely and open, and I want to see him over fences when he's older [I'm a jumper lol... I want to see EVERYTHING tried over fences... those knees aren't so badly over that I would write him off for it and -if- he's tied in it's not bad] - I bet he'd have a really nice tuck. Depending on how he matures he may or may not be a bit heavy/coarse, with that breeding, but given that it was done blood over bone he should be of a fairly consistent type with his siblings if he has any, and more "sporty" in type and build.

I love that big archy neck, it might end up being a tad over-thick but hey... he's half Clydie. The big neck is the thing I love most about the Clydesdale breed! Rather a big chunky neck than a sad skinny almost-ewey neck that just won't muscle up and turn over no matter what you do

Overall I really like him, and I want him, and 14-some hand at 9 months? He's going to be huge!


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## TheLastUnicorn

Elana - if he doesn't find the right buyer before then, I will be starting him in harness around 2-3yrs, then will start him undersaddle about 4 - which direction he goes will be up to him. 

I think the tied in at the knee is an optical illusion, in person he definitely isn't. (Not just my opinion either) He is a tad over in the knee... I have been told not to worry too much about that until he is older as it is apparently not uncommon for draft and draft cross foals, to just wait and see when he is a bit older. (It was one of my big concerns when I first noticed it... )

The front shot is possibly an awkward stance - but the others I have he wasn't standing very square (nah, ok, he wasn't at all square OR balanced, too busy fidgeting)... So I have to live with that analysis until I can get one that proves otherwise, since the photo sure doesn't really do him any favors. (He had sort of "planted" himself here making him look more base narrow than he seems in person too) 

I don't see what you mean by "flat humorous"? I see an open shoulder angle (maybe I am misundstanding what you mean though?) 

His feet, according to our trimmer, are naturally self wearing (due to the footing he's been kept on) and naturally balanced... So it must be just something about the photos giving you the impression the trim is not correct. He has a lovely short toe, wide open heel and from the bottom a great looking frog with a functional hoof. 

I don't actually seem to have any great conformation shots of either parent... I might have to dig some up from old files.


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## TheLastUnicorn

blue eyed pony said:


> What Drafty said.
> 
> He also -may- be a little bit upright behind, but that might just be the photos. Those cannons will be lovely and short, and I love his pastern length, though they look a bit upright in one of the pics.
> 
> That shoulder is lovely and open, and I want to see him over fences when he's older [I'm a jumper lol... I want to see EVERYTHING tried over fences... those knees aren't so badly over that I would write him off for it and -if- he's tied in it's not bad] - I bet he'd have a really nice tuck. Depending on how he matures he may or may not be a bit heavy/coarse, with that breeding, but given that it was done blood over bone he should be of a fairly consistent type with his siblings if he has any, and more "sporty" in type and build.
> 
> I love that big archy neck, it might end up being a tad over-thick but hey... he's half Clydie. The big neck is the thing I love most about the Clydesdale breed! Rather a big chunky neck than a sad skinny almost-ewey neck that just won't muscle up and turn over no matter what you do
> 
> *Overall I really like him, and I want him, and 14-some hand at 9 months? He's going to be huge!*


Yes, a few experienced breeders have come to meet him and said to expect nothing less than 17hh, and more likely 18. Where THAT came from, I'm not too sure, I was honestly expecting him (as a theoretical foal) to finish between around 16hh based on his pedigree. (Just goes to show, you can't predict everything!) 

No siblings for him. I gelded his sire last year, as I bought a younger stallion I think will just plain be better suited to my goals. (A bit more refined). Not that I am unhappy with this colt, but my goal is something a little bit longer lined. 

He is going to be big bodied, though I have been told he will match it for bone, and not to be terribly concerned he will be too heavy for sport as he has lovely self carriage and moves lightly. (Admittedly, I haven't met many foals who move heavily... So I suppose I either have to trust their experience, or wait and see)


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## blue eyed pony

Well if it helps at all I have a friend who has a REALLY heavy Percheron/Cleveland Bay/WB cross and he moves really lightly. York could be purebred Percheron just going by appearance, he's as wide as he is tall. Officially measured at 16.1 but gives the impression of being about 18hh!

FWIW, I like them big, the bigger the better... safest I've ever felt on a horse was on a 16.3hh [biggest I've ever ridden] FEI dressage horse. The big ones can move so amazingly. Orrrr they can be really coarse and flat, but Saddlebred/Clyde should float well enough. Clydies have good knee action IME and are surprisingly athletic for their size and bulk, Saddlebreds I have very little experience with except to say YUM YUM YUM. Some of them swing their hind legs out when they move, which reminds me of the movement of the Standardbred, but a good one that moves straight and correct is just... poetry in motion.

I'm used to seeing the GG being a Saddlebred/Friesian cross, but my understanding is that it's really Saddlebred/draft. Friesian is just the most popular choice of draft breed, because they have fewer "draft horse" characteristics. I don't like Friesians, but I do like GG's. Especially yours.


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## TheLastUnicorn

blue eyed pony said:


> Well if it helps at all I have a friend who has a REALLY heavy Percheron/Cleveland Bay/WB cross and he moves really lightly. York could be purebred Percheron just going by appearance, he's as wide as he is tall. Officially measured at 16.1 but gives the impression of being about 18hh!
> 
> FWIW, I like them big, the bigger the better... safest I've ever felt on a horse was on a 16.3hh [biggest I've ever ridden] FEI dressage horse. The big ones can move so amazingly. Orrrr they can be really coarse and flat, but Saddlebred/Clyde should float well enough. Clydies have good knee action IME and are surprisingly athletic for their size and bulk, Saddlebreds I have very little experience with except to say YUM YUM YUM. Some of them swing their hind legs out when they move, which reminds me of the movement of the Standardbred, but a good one that moves straight and correct is just... poetry in motion.
> 
> I'm used to seeing the GG being a Saddlebred/Friesian cross, but my understanding is that it's really Saddlebred/draft. Friesian is just the most popular choice of draft breed, because they have fewer "draft horse" characteristics. I don't like Friesians, but I do like GG's. Especially yours.


Interesting you mention some Saddlebreds moving like Standardbreds... Waaaaaay back in most ASB Pedigrees are Standardbreds, so that makes sense. I think they are often a breed sold a little short. I love all my purebred Saddlebreds, but I also love the more substantial build of the GG. 

And yes, the GG is Saddlebred/Draft, or Saddlebred/Friesian - with up to 75% Saddlebred blood, or as little as 25%. While the Friesian seems most often used, we chose the Clydesdale because of the fact, for a heavy draft, they tend to be very athletic with a way of going I find more appealing. (They don't tend to have the very upright front end present in most Friesians). I like the F1 generation of GG's but I am REALLY loving the F2 that is starting to make an appearance now. I like the Clydesdale and Shire crosses, better, on the whole... But more than a few with Friesian have certainly caught my eye. 

This is the sire of our colt, with less than 30 days undersaddle. (Apparently the only set up conformation shots I have of him, handy-like, are as a gangly colt) After he was gelded he was sold, I had a lot of solid interest from dressage and pony club riders ... In the end he went to a woman who just wanted a really nice all around horse - for her own enjoyment (she doesn't show) simply because he seemed to really like her best. (I'm a bit kooky like that, they just had an immediate "click" that seemed missing from some of the others who came to look. It made me feel better about parting with a horse I really really liked) 
The woman riding him in this photo said he was by far the coolest horse she had trained as far as how quick and easy he learned - and his movement. She a rides and shows hunter/jumpers (with more emphasis on jumpers) and said she if she could have, she would have taken him home because he would suit both, with flair.









This is the colt's dam, showing even the big drafts can have get up and go... (unfortunately the last time I took conformation photos of her she was about 2 or 3, right in the middle of a growth spurt... Something to do when I think about it will be getting new ones now that she is 9 and she is what she is.). She was started for harness, but just didn't seem to enjoy it (she'd do it and everything, but you could tell it was because she's good natured)... So now she is ridden instead. We just do basic flatwork and trails. She has nice movement, especially considering her size, and a fabulous temperment. When a young lady borrowed her for a riding lesson (her own horse had pulled up lame) the coach said "she is just a lovely mare, I'd like to steal her. I love her way of going and you can't beat her mind."


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## blue eyed pony

Nice parents, they compliment each other beautifully  looks like he gets his gorgeous neck from both sides. He surely has Daddy's face!

Comparing the Saddlebred and the Standardbred is like comparing a Ferrari and a BMW. In my experience at least. They're both "cars". They're both a smooth ride that handles nicely. The Ferrari just goes quicker and responds a lot more easily. Only thing wrong with the Standie as opposed to the Saddlebred, is that the Standardbred paces.


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## TheLastUnicorn

blue eyed pony said:


> Nice parents, they compliment each other beautifully  looks like he gets his gorgeous neck from both sides. He surely has Daddy's face!
> 
> Comparing the Saddlebred and the Standardbred is like comparing a Ferrari and a BMW. In my experience at least. They're both "cars". They're both a smooth ride that handles nicely. The Ferrari just goes quicker and responds a lot more easily. Only thing wrong with the Standie as opposed to the Saddlebred, is that the Standardbred paces.


Thanks. I think the colt is an improvement on both parents in many ways. Overall I got much what I was expecting from this pairing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TheLastUnicorn

As an aside... While most Standies pace and most ASB's do not gait... Some Standies do not pace at all (hence the two racing styles - trotters and pacers) and some ASBs are gaited (hence 3 gaited and 5 gaited divisions ) ... Just to muck the comparison up a bit. 

I happen to think ASBs tend to look and move with more elegance, but I have had the chance to meet some stunning, talented, Standardbreds too, ones which you can really see the distant relatives they have in common.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## blue eyed pony

despite the differences though, IME the two breeds are quite similar. The ASB is a LOT sexier [hence me referring to it as the Ferrari], and just has more appeal as a whole. The STB, while common and often decidedly unattractive to look at, is a nice ride [when it's not pacing LOL, that pace is the most uncomfortable gait to ride...], and typically a very family-friendly type of horse.

I love the STB breed, my next project horse will probably be one [I can't afford a good, unspoiled Saddlebred and they aren't usually the sort of horse that ends up naughty enough to be offloaded cheap, least not around here], but they do tend to lack a certain elegance. If you're lucky enough to find one that can actually canter properly, and not that four-beat half-pace thing they tend towards, they make decent dressage horses, good eventers, and great showjumpers, it's just a matter of finding a really good one!

...there's a Standie across the road at the moment that I really want when she finishes racing... but if she's as quick on the track as she is in the pasture, they'll retire her to the breeding barn, not to some "pleasure rider" who only wants her for the purpose of gaining experience. Moves straight and correct, conformation is decent, ugliest head I have EVER seen but you don't ride the head. And that trot is just incredible.

How did we get here? LOL.

Back on topic now, I want to steal your little big guy. Seriously.


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## Elana

Here is what I mean about the shoulder which he has inherited from his dam (along with the lower neck set common to draft horses). The point of shoulder needs to be higher and the shoulder more laid back. Blue is what he is. Red is roughly what he should be but is not. BTW I did this quickly and the red is not as accurate as I would like but you get the idea. 

The photo of the dam running shows about as high as she can lift her knee. Both together over a fence? Probably not that high. Same for the colt. The sire appears to have a higher neck set and a more laid back shoulder. 

That is why I asked what you plan to do. I expect this colt is nice but not a higher level dressage or jumper prospect. Nice enough horse.


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## TheLastUnicorn

Thanks Elana, I think you just used terms I'm less familiar with. I understand now. 

No, this boy is not destined for any high level discipline, was never meant to be. Originally I was hoping for a solid mount I could use as part of my lesson program, down the road... His height may (or may not) make him less desirable for that (for us, many of my students find his dam too tall - which was why I went with the much smaller sire)

The colt, while not as scopey as I might hope for (shame, daddy can lift his Knees around his ears), has spring loaded legs and frequently opts to jump whatever he finds laying about in his pasture (brush, logs, dips in the ground... Sadly his gate a couple times  ) ... If he doesn't lose that with maturity he might make an decent enough jumper (again, not aiming him GP) 

Blue Eyes - where are you located? I am part of an ASB sporthorse group who frequently puts up ads for ASBs needing "rescue". I have seen most going for less than $500 (they often need TLC, but many are at least broke to drive, and do a ride through at auction)
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## smguidotti

I'm excited to see your guy grow up! I've only heard a few things about GGs in the past. But I agree with the OP that ASB get sold short. Why do ASB get a bad rap? I have heard they do well as saddle horses (even dressage/jumping). But I have also heard they are known to have weak backs?


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## TheLastUnicorn

smguidotti said:


> I'm excited to see your guy grow up! I've only heard a few things about GGs in the past. But I agree with the OP that ASB get sold short. Why do ASB get a bad rap? I have heard they do well as saddle horses (even dressage/jumping). But I have also heard they are known to have weak backs?


The American Saddlebred is probably currently best known for it's performance in Saddleseat, as such, it seems to have been forgotten by a lot of riders from other disciplines, in spite of once being a popular mount (according to some long time breed fans they faded when the European Warmbloods started to make their debut here in North America, not necessarily for lesser ability, but because they were no longer the "fad of the day"... I'm not sure that is entirely accurate, but that is what I have been told) 

The "modern" Saddlebred has, in some cases been so overly bred with amount of "trot" being placed above conformation that the breed is now becoming known for serious conformation faults such as lordosis (sway back), crooked legs, long loins, long backs, light bone etc. by breeders who just don't "know better". These horses often end up more or less low level horses, even in Saddleseat... And so they are often what a base majority of sport riders see trying "new" things, and being, obviously unimpressed. 

This type of breeding is not done by the breeders at the top of the discipline though, and so you can find well built individuals without too much trouble. The issue can be purchasing them before they have been trained to move incorrectly for sport - Saddleseat shows off the horse's scope, and athleticsm but not in the same way a Dressage horse or Jumper will. As a result once they are trained for Saddleseat they would need to undergo a lot of retraining to teach them how to move correctly for their new job. There are a few breeders who do not breed for the show ring, and a few SS breeders who will see a foal has less talent for the show ring and aim it for other disciplines... Many will still train it for Saddleseat because that's all they really know. 

Less educated people will see the horse moving "upsidedown" and with short high strides and think the horse is ill suited for anything else.

In reality, many Saddlebreds are quite capable of excelling in many different disciplines (the same conformation which allows them to move snappy and high also gives them scope for fences, and most are also able to lengthen their stride as well), and do so when they have been properly conditioned for their job, the thing is, less than 3000 Saddlebreds are registered every year in the US (compared to 300,000 or so Quarter Horses , 100,000 or so Paints, 100,000 or so TBs - I used to have the exact stats, but they aren't handy) and most of those are being used for Saddleseat or other ASHA breed showing, as until recently ASHA (American Saddlebred Horse Association) did not actively promote the breed for open divisions or reward members for showing in open divisions. (In the last few years they have begun an open division reward program to promote what is otherwise a quickly disappearing breed to riders outside the breed) 

There are some breed fans who are actively trying to get ASB horses back into the open divisions with success, and hopefully this will help win back some popularity for what is really a lovely breed option! 

Sorry for the novel... Quite obviously I really like Saddlebreds :lol:


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## smguidotti

Thank you! I have actually always admired the breed. I remember a long time ago at a ranch I was riding at had a *42 year-old ASB*. He seemed to have much older breeding to him as compared to the popular type you see now a days that is often associated with the flaws you described. 

But every other ASB I have encountered had a quirky but pleasant disposition and Beautiful gaits. I'm disappointed I haven't gotten to ride one yet!


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## TheLastUnicorn

smguidotti said:


> Thank you! I have actually always admired the breed. I remember a long time ago at a ranch I was riding at had a *42 year-old ASB*. He seemed to have much older breeding to him as compared to the popular type you see now a days that is often associated with the flaws you described.
> 
> But every other ASB I have encountered had a quirky but pleasant disposition and Beautiful gaits. I'm disappointed I haven't gotten to ride one yet!


At 42 he would likely be an "older style" bred horse, yes. I have been told ASBs that have strong ties to the stallion Denmark tend to be a bit heavier boned and shorter backed with fewer instances of lordosis than some other lines... But I am sure there are exceptions.

Once you ride one you might find yourself addicted. :lol: :twisted:


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## Saddlebag

Lardosis in ASBs goes back almost as old as the breed.


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## blue eyed pony

TLU, I'm in Australia :/ the breed isn't very common here, it IS present but not common. I know of one breeder, there are others of course because the odd ASB does come up for sale from someone other than that breeder that doesn't have bloodlines that come from that breeder but I don't know of them.

That breeder's stud Fame's Nitro [imported from the US] is really something else. 17hh and pure gorgeous. Consistently sires a really stunning type, to all sorts of different mares of all sorts of different types, so his breeding is really quite prepotent. IIRC he's homozygous tobiano, and I've never seen a red-based foal from him. Unfortunately my filly doesn't compliment him AT ALL, so he's not on the list of potential future husbands for her IF she ever gets bred, which is a real shame because as I said I do love the breed.


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## TheLastUnicorn

It may well go back further, it is present in most breeds... But not all ASBs have it and some lines seem to have almost no individuals with it... I think the statement regarding the 42 yr old and being of older lines had to do with his overall looks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## smguidotti

Can someone post a good picture of an ASB? Not one that is only doing Saddle seat. I am very curious!


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## TheLastUnicorn

Here are some examples... Some of these horses were Saddleseat horses before going onto other disciplines, others were never trained for Saddleseat


The Palomino in this thread is purebred ASB who has never done Saddleseat
Here is another of him, he was about 4 here









This is a 3yr old colt I currently own, also purebred ASB 









The stallion Borealis, purebred ASB 










ASB "Forty Something" ... I think he is PSG or GP dressage 









Saddlebred jumping



























Barrel racing, just to show some agility










If I could figure out how to link a photo from fb there are more I could share


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## TheLastUnicorn

blue eyed pony said:


> TLU, I'm in Australia :/ the breed isn't very common here, it IS present but not common. I know of one breeder, there are others of course because the odd ASB does come up for sale from someone other than that breeder that doesn't have bloodlines that come from that breeder but I don't know of them.
> 
> That breeder's stud Fame's Nitro [imported from the US] is really something else. 17hh and pure gorgeous. Consistently sires a really stunning type, to all sorts of different mares of all sorts of different types, so his breeding is really quite prepotent. IIRC he's homozygous tobiano, and I've never seen a red-based foal from him. Unfortunately my filly doesn't compliment him AT ALL, so he's not on the list of potential future husbands for her IF she ever gets bred, which is a real shame because as I said I do love the breed.


Yeah, your location could make getting an affordable, quality ASB harder - for sure. 

I know of an Austrailian breeder, through a Fb group, not sure if they'd be the same one or not though. The one I know has some bays & chestnuts, solid colored... So they might be different, or may have two studs (or also utilize AI). Very nice horses, and I'd guess they probably don't sell cheaply - very WB type on theirs, nice examples of a Sporthorse type. 
I was under the impression Saddleseat is not seen in Australia, is that true?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## blue eyed pony

I've never seen saddleseat. Only videos, and none of them were shot in Aus.

The one I'm thinking of had a palomino stallion too, but the pally has sadly passed away. Some bay and chestnut mares, her only non-solid is her stud [and his foals]. The name of her farm is Black Orchid Stud.

I've seen an ASB gelding as cheap as $3k and he was quite lovely but too small for me, I like tall horses and that one was only 14.2. Saddlebreds here get used as pleasure horses, dressage horses, and eventers, and are shown in-hand in "any other registered breed" classes... not enough of them to make their own specific class. They're rare here which ups the price but not the flavour of the month so not as pricey as a warmblood of the same quality.


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## TheLastUnicorn

Very cool! It's interesting (to me) that they have been imported to other countries as pleasure/sport horses, but are less accepted in the country which created them as such.


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## texasgal

I just want to say to the OP that I really REally REALLY like the colt at the top of this thread...


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## TheLastUnicorn

Thanks texasgal!


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## smguidotti

I love your colt! ANd I can't beleve those ASBs! Particularly the bays! My jaw dropped at Borealis! Thank you for sharing!


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## Charley horse

He looks bad bad bad..."You need to give him to me!"
snicker-snicker )
Serious though I love him and want a drafty!!!


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## Allison Finch

I kinda like him. I like him best in the first shot. I am not sure he is as "over" at the knee as he appears. His leg markings seem to accentuate this a bit. His shoulder is a bit upright and shallow, so I would expect more knee action than shoulder reach.

The second photo does him NO justice. It accentuates his shallow shoulder and he is reaching away from his haunch. It makes his hind legs look like straight posts (the first photo shows this is not the case with him).

I know what I would love him for....a field hunter! He has great bone and is nice and solid. If he makes some height, I would love to hunt him sidesaddle. His neck and back would make him perfect aside.

I wish he were closer to NC.


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## tinyliny

I thought the Georgian Grande was a Frezian/arab cross. Now where'd I get that idea?


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## TheLastUnicorn

LOL Charley Horse!


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## Charley horse




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## TheLastUnicorn

Oh... Huh, I didn't see a few of these posts a minute ago...

Allison Finch - yup, he doesn't get a lot of reach out front... I have seen him get what I would consider "acceptable" reach for a lengthened trot, but it's not likely going to get him any high scores in dressage.

I've never heard of "field hunters"... Guessing we don't have it near me, what is it? 



tinyliny said:


> I thought the Georgian Grande was a Frezian/arab cross. Now where'd I get that idea?


Not sure, I think that a Friesian/Arab could be registered as Friesian Sporthorse... But it cannot be registered as Georgian Grande.

The Georgian Grande cross that seems most popular at the moment is the Saddlebred/Friesian, so maybe you got Saddlebred and Arab confused? (Or maybe someone who was misinformed, misinformed you?)


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## Allison Finch

A field hunter is one used for foxhunting.


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## TheLastUnicorn

Ah! Ok! No foxhunting in my area that I've ever heard of... I hear it is great fun from some of my US friends though


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## smguidotti

Take a look at this big beast. The original source where I found the picture does not work anymore . . . He WAS a stud . . . maybe not anymore . . .




This is this info that came from the original site: "“Georgian Grande Baron, Von Vendavel, Standing 17.3 at 6 Years old. The Georgian Grande Horse is a new horse breed being developed from crossbreeding the American Saddlebred on the Friesian horse and assorted draft horse breeds. The aim of the breeding is to create a Saddlebred-like horse that adds the best qualities of heavier breeds. One goal of the breed registry is to recreate a historic type of Saddlebred common prior to the 20th century that has been less emphasized in modern times.”


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## soenjer55

Georgian Grande-Vendavel
He's out of a friesian stallion and a saddlebred/percheron mare. He is also a gelding.
edit: on their site, www.flyingwfarms.com, he does not appear anywhere- I had to search his name to find information- so I'm pretty sure they sold him and that's why he dropped off the radar.


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## its lbs not miles

soenjer55 said:


> Georgian Grande-Vendavel
> He's out of a friesian stallion and a saddlebred/percheron mare. He is also a gelding.
> edit: on their site, www.flyingwfarms.com, he does not appear anywhere- I had to search his name to find information- so I'm pretty sure they sold him and that's why he dropped off the radar.


You can still see pictures of Baron von Vendavel (aka: Val, not to be confused with my mare that has the same nick name, although they have the same sire) on the FWF website. They post pictures of the horses they sold that are sent in by the owners.
Georgian Grande-Vendavel

Actually, pretty much all the pictures of him that are out there were taken by the lady who bought him. I think they have cut back on the numbers they are breeding, but they are still putting out some lovely horses.


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