# Heaves Advice?



## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

The last time I dealt with heaves was in the 1970's -- we were still giving heavy horses people cough syrup back then. Much has changed

If you already haven't run across this link, it's a good read that talks about treatments and also changing the food regimen to something pelletized that still has vitamins/minerals in it. A ration balancer might be a good choice.

Heaves in horses: a way forward - dealing with COPD (Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease) - Horse health problems and articles - Horsetalk.co.nz - equestrian news and horse health information

It also state that studies have shown some horses have gone right back into "asthma attacks" 90 minutes after they were brought under control.

It sounds like you're doing every thing you can, so it's going to be a matter of finding what keeps your horse, in your environment, under control.

When winter gets here, soaking hay won't be fun unless you live in Florida or Southern California.

They do make hay steamers specifically for steaming the dust and pollen out of hay for heavy horses.

Hay steamers have been in the UK for awhile but the U.S. companies are fairly new.

This is just one link I found. Home | Happy Horse Products USA

If your dad is handy, he could easily make one. 

make your own hay steamer - Horse and Man

Again, a hay steamer is not the Saving Grace for a horse with COPD; it's just a easier way out of cleaning the hay without having to soak it; especially in the winter

Hope this helps


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

Thanks so much Walkin! I never thought of steaming the hay -- that would be a definite lifesaver in the winter! Dad and I were just discussing what fun soaking hay is going to be in January... No such luck as living in FL or CA, lol. Building a steamer ourselves looks like it'd definitely be the way to go! That's an excellent informational link, too; I'm forwarding it to my dad to read as well. He's not terribly horsey himself, and he'd never even heard of a horse having anything like asthma or COPD before this started this spring. I'm so glad I'm done with school and will be around full time again to manage this properly. 

Dad and I are thinking that the proximate cause of both attacks is outside dust -- both occurred shortly after he came in from afternoon turnout on comparatively hot and dry days following long spells without rain. He has a habit of walking the fenceline facing the house and barn when it gets close to feeding time and he knows I'm coming, and has a path there and a patch by the gate beaten to bare dirt. It's really very dry here right now; we haven't had more than the briefest of nuisance sprinkles for nearly two weeks now, when normally we have a hard time getting three days in a row without a downpour to cut hay. We're all used to ankle-deep mud, not dust, haha.

Scout was back to normal as of last inspection last night; no flaring nostrils, no wheezing, and the visible "breathing action" moving back up toward his chest rather than in his belly/abdomen. He had a few bouts of coughing yesterday, each one milder than the last. I'm heading out right now to do morning chores and get Scout out in the pasture while there's still plenty of dew on the ground to keep any of that dust down. 

What have you found the worst seasons are for flare ups? It seems like each would have its own hazards -- high tree and grass pollen in the spring, lack of rain in the summer, cold dry air and diminished turnout in winter... Obviously good common sense preventative measures rule, but is there a season (or region) where even the general outdoor environment can be a problem? Or does that vary from case to case? 

Thank you again!


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## hemms (Apr 18, 2012)

My last horse was diagnosed as having advanced heaves after I sold him to his current owner. In the three years I owned him, I NEVER saw a single second of anything to concern me. His new owner, as well as his original owner, both feed round bales. It sounds like you are not, but I do feed my hay spread out in numerous small piles to simulate grazing, keep them mobile and reduce dust. 

A friend of mine moved her gelding here because of how we feed when her BO refused to feed anything other than rounds. Her gelding quickly reduced his symptoms, within a week showing nothing at all. She rides that horse HARD, on a daily basis. He is a former sulky racer and loves her pace. 

We are quite dry where we live, though our pasture has a lot of dense brush that offers all the shelter they need. It also seems to cut down on the amount of open dirt/dust. 

Could you put some kind of dust-free footing down on the the high-traffic zones? Crushed granite is a popular driveway surface here because it's cheaper than traditional limestone gravel and produces much less dust. It's a blue-ish colour. Another advantage of gravel is that it really works well to toughen up their feet (though, I imagine that with all that arid climate, you may not have an issue, lol!). 

For myself, turnout 24/7 has completely erradicated symptoms of the disease. But I don't really have a lot of dusty places that anyone enjoys hanging out in. Shelter buildings do tend to be chased by dust-bowls, don't they? Maybe you can build a mobile one that you can pull around the pasture with a truck to keep the footing from degrading?


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## hemms (Apr 18, 2012)

Forgot to add that our horses have turnout year-round, whether it's +30C or -40C. They adapt accordingly and love it.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Scoutrider said:


> What have you found the worst seasons are for flare ups? It seems like each would have its own hazards -- high tree and grass pollen in the spring, lack of rain in the summer, cold dry air and diminished turnout in winter... Obviously good common sense preventative measures rule, but is there a season (or region) where even the general outdoor environment can be a problem? Or does that vary from case to case?
> 
> Thank you again!


Back when I was caring for my grandad's heavy horse, there didn't seem to be any particular season as anything with dust in it (including environment and the barn) could set him off.

I don't have a clue if herbs would help your horse BUT:

I have one horse who has dust/mold/pollen allergies and is prone to coughing during the warm months. I could see him headed for heaves if I'm not careful with him.

I have him on "allergy herbal blend" from herbs4horses.com.

Equine Allergy Herbal Blend: stronger immune system for horses Herbal Remedies for Horses including Natural Equine Supplements for Laminitis and Founder in Horses- Herbs For Horses This stuff works miracles on him. He's been on it, seasonally, since 2006; I think that's when I started him. When our summers get really dry and miserable hot, I double the dose.

This company also sells MoLung. Herbal Remedies for Horses including Natural Equine Supplements for Laminitis and Founder in Horses- Herbs For Horses 

I don't have a clue if that would help your horse; you'd have to research it somewhere besides the herbs4horses web site.

If you decide to try one or both of these products, I would ask for a one pound trial sample as these products are 100% pure (no fillers), therefore not cheap. 

I have been doing business with herbs4horses since 2004 and can say they are very ethical & helpful, and delivery is very fast.

Without putting your horse on drugs, which would be forever, this is the only thing I can think of that might help reduce his symptoms, along with clean hay and keeping his environment as dust-free as is humanly possible.

I also agree with not feeding roundbales, which I know you don't


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

I got a horse a few months ago and the first really nice, warm weekend we had, he started to cough. There was a little bit of mucous at first, but especially as it developed, it was really just a cough. I tried AniHist for the first week and a half or so, but it continued to worsen during that time.

I had my vet examine my horse and she agreed with what I had been thinking based on conversations with my BO and other horse-savvy friends- allergies, but not heaves, luckily. I stopped the AniHist (as it wasn't helping), started watering his hay, and added Cough Free to his diet. Cough Free is an herbal supplement, and I didn't think much of it at first, but between it and the watered hay, his cough stopped within 3 or 4 days.

My BO also suggested using "silver water" (aka colloidal silver), which she swears by and makes for several of the other horses who have allergies. Since my horse's problem resolved with the 2 changes I mentioned above, I haven't tried it.


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## foreveramber (Apr 23, 2012)

I'm so happy to see this post, although very sorry for your & your horse's situation, because me & mine are in one very similar! Before I forget to mention it... the second attack your horse had makes sense, because the steroid shots apparently wear off in 3-4 weeks (according to my vet).

I moved my horse to a new barn about a month and a half ago, and she started wheezing within about two weeks of getting there. Bang - diagnosed with heaves two weeks later. She got a steroid shot and is on Clenbuterol (a bronchodilator), and her breathing seems perfect (to me) now. We also got a lot of rain which has helped with the dust; we hadn't had any for the whole first month she was at the new place so it was pretty much a desert around here - definitely didn't help my poor girl.

My vet thinks the heaves was brought on by a batch of moldy hay (round bales), which I can't say I agree with because a) I never saw any bad hay, and b) the new barn is soooo well-maintained, I really can't picture the BO permitting bad hay to be put out. My research has lead me to believe that my horse's heaves was brought on by a combination of the dust, and round bales being fed in "hay houses" (I can't find any pictures online but they're a big plastic house that sits over top of the round bale and the horses stick their heads in the windows to eat). Honestly, before my research, I had no idea about round bales being so terrible, especially for heavey horses or those sensitive to dust. And especially in these stupid hay houses - I thought they were such a good idea when I first saw them but now I think they're just death traps! NO ventilation of dust whatsoever. Our old barn was VERY run down and it would definitely not shock me to find out that there was a mold issue there, but the round bales there weren't in these hay-house-death-traps so maybe that helped...? My horse never had ANY breathing problems there though - so confusing!

I know that the best thing for my horse would be to feed soaked square bales, but that service is not offered at my new barn, which I love, and really don't want to leave. And to be honest, I don't really feel a pressing need to move since my horse is actually doing fine while on medication. However, if she gets ANY worse, I will go on a hunt for a barn in the area that will hand-pick each speck of dust out of my girl's hay if necessary!!!

Oh and my horse is also kept outside 24/7, regardless of the weather (with appropriate shelter provided).

*Scoutrider* - I'm sorry I didn't offer much advice here (and sorry for the novel-in-reply-to-your-novel), but I just wanted to let you know that we feel your pain and wish you all the best!!!!! Please keep us updated, and feel free to PM me if you'd like! 
(Re-reading my response, it is SO poorly organized it's making my university essay-writing brain cringe)


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

Thanks all for the replies, suggestions, and advice!! 


I had no idea that the steroid shot would stay in his system for that long!! That does make sense that he would have another episode after the steroids wore off. His second attack was almost exactly 5 weeks after the first; 34 days. There was no buildup to the second attack, though, no increase in coughing or other indicators that anything was wearing off. Just normal breathing, and then next trip out to the barn about an hour later he was having labored breathing. 


I'm fairly certain that the whole condition was triggered by our hay over last winter. Winter before last, we started buying round bales, parking them in the barn, and peeling hay off of them for each feeding. The horses were absolutely NOT eating the round bales the way that seems to be the common denominator among so many heaves cases (free access, noses buried in the center of the bale, etc.); the bale was kept well away from the stalls, and each feed's ration pulled off and placed on the floor in the corner of the stall at feeding time, just like flakes from square bales. In the spring, we'd go back to square bales for convenience. We were very careful; rejected bales that weren't excellent quality and all that, but apparently we weren't careful enough. The thing that doesn't add up with the blaming the hay theory is that the coughing and heaves attacks only started a good two weeks after we switched back to high quality square bales this spring. We are, of course, done with round bales fed in any context whatsoever... 


I've had Scout for three years last month, and this is the first time he's ever had so much as a hiccup in that time. I have read a couple of places that horses that are going to be sensitive generally start showing symptoms around age 8 or so, and Scout's right in that age range. I've met a few heaves cases in the past, granted all in their late teens, and they tended to cough more or less constantly. Those owners never mentioned dealing with anything like these asthma attack-like episodes. I'm guessing that those horses were showing more of the long-term effects of the condition?


We're on day 5 since his second attack, and there was no coughing at all yesterday (I'm not with him 24/7, he may have when I wasn't there, but I'm around the barn and pasture enough if he was having even minor coughing I'd have heard something), and nothing but normalcy this morning. He's walking, trotting, and cantering in the pasture, some other "antics," so he's obviously feeling pretty good. After he runs or plays up, he settles down pretty quickly, respiration all normal, no coughing, hardly any indication that he'd been doing anything more strenuous than standing around. I'm planning on popping the saddle on and taking him for an easy ride this afternoon. I'm also working him up to staying outside overnight; he's used to being "tucked in" for the night, and being left out late in the dark seems to confuse him a little, but, especially as agreeable as the weather is supposed to be, it's definitely in the best interest of his lungs that he spend the night outside. I'm sure the big baby will adapt, lol.


Thank you all so much for your replies, suggestions, and advice!! I really appreciate you sharing your experiences, and I'm glad that the thread has been helpful to you, foreveramber! I'm so sorry you and your girl are dealing with this, too. I'll look into the herbal options, and see about the possibility of putting down a truckload of gravel in the dusty patch by the gate. I'll most definitely keep you guys updated, and I'll be keeping you in my thoughts.


Thanks again, so much!!


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Scout, copd is inflammation of the airways. This can be triggered by molds, dust, hay dust, etc. If, like us, you've had a lot of rain the molds could be triggering this. Can you not run temporary electric wire or ribbon from his stall to the pasture? If you can get wheat straw it is a superior dustless bedding for his stall. It is the inflammation that causes the coughing which may or may not produce mucous.


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## hemms (Apr 18, 2012)

I've forked off round bales successfully for individual feedings. No issues there. It's the 'plug in until it's gone' activity that is no good, their heads being sumbersed in the dust for extended periods of time. As long as you spread your hay out, you're doing a reasonable job. Watering it is the last step to really conquering it, though I haven't had a horse that sensitive in my care. 

I hope being out at night shows some good results!


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

Updating on Scout's condition! 

Haven't had any more attacks since his second, back on June 9th, right before I started this thread. Some coughing, but coughs are few and far between, and even milder than usual over the last week or so. Days that I do notice any coughing tend to be days that the weather report calls for high pollen counts or otherwise poor air quality in the area (blasted muggy heat wave :-x). His breathing has been essentially normal, even during/following moderate exercise. Haven't ridden much recently, mainly because of the insane temperatures and humidity. 

We are, of course, continuing with the Tri-Hist regimen, and religiously soaking his hay. He's finally starting to perk up about his meals again... he never went off his feed per se, but he was eating with somewhat less enthusiasm because of the supplement powder and the wet hay... just different than what he was used to, I expect. As of the past week and a half or so, all of the old enthusiasm is back at mealtime. 

He saw the vet about a week ago, for his annual shots and physical. This was the first time that our normal vet (not the weekend emergency on-call vet at the office) has examined him since this all started. She took a listen to his lungs, and said that everything sounded pretty good, and to keep on doing what we're doing. We talked for a bit, and the vet thinks it's just sort of a freak thing that he's developed this now, and still isn't taking the possibility that his problem may just be severe allergy flare-ups off the table. This vet knows us and our horses well, and said that she highly doubts that it was our hay or anything we've done wrong, or could have done better, that has brought this on. That visit raised my spirits quite a bit, to hear that things sound pretty good and that this likely isn't something that could have been averted had I done something different/better. 

Unfortunately, the nighttime turnout experiment has pretty much been a bust... Scout starts getting very upset, almost panicky, cantering back and forth in front of the gate, whinnying and fussing once the sun goes down until someone goes to get him. In the interest of keeping him from stressing out and running around in a cloud of dust of his own raising, we've nixed that idea. We have a ton of mostly-noctournal wildlife activity, and pretty regularly see everything from raccoons to deer to gray foxes to bobcats to bears on our property; I almost expect that he smells something scary in the dark, as he's naturally a very calm and laid-back kind of fella. 

I wish I could set up an electric-wire/ribbon turnout from his stall to the pasture... that would be ideal. Unfortunately, the way our barn is set up and positioned relative to the pasture, there's really no way to set something like that up safely. :-( Wheat straw is tough to get in this area... I have used it before, but my Hoover-vacuum horses ended up eating it, whether it was clean or been "used," no matter how much hay I kept in front of them. That was years ago, and I went back to shavings pretty quickly because I worried about them eating poo/wee and having digestive problems or something... 

*THANKS AGAIN TO EVERYONE* for your advice, comments, and for sending good vibes our way!! They seem to be working, and, for now, we seem to have this thing fairly well controlled!


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Scout, I wrote a long answer - herewith the shortened version:

Calling the vet to examine a horse with a spasmodic cough is a bit like going to the dentist with a toothache which goes away as you sit in the dentist’s chair. The horse will not cough just because you ask it to. As the owner you will have to do the detective work and ’speak for your horse’ to the vet. 

What helps the vet reach a diagnosis of the problem is a record of the coughing - 
ie how many coughs per minute / hour. 
at what time of day, 
under what weather conditions ie air temperature and whether moist or dry air.

Keep a record of the body temperature of the horse and the weight either as a gain or loss
Keep a record of the feed given. 
Record the sound of any cough and take some photos of the horse as a record. 
Certainly photograph any indication of the horse becoming ‘tucked up‘.

Note any activity which might bring stress to the horse - ie aircraft, tractors or human.

Keep a camera handy and ready to record in video with sound any serious bouts of coughing. 

Damp all hay. Avoid using wood dust as bedding - use shavings .
Human cough medicine - (Benyllin) can help ease the symptoms for a short time.
Consider using moist sugar beet to help dampen the feed. 
In the UK a prescription medication called ‘Ventapulmin’ helps give relief to the occasional cough but it is not necessarily a cure.

Horses can suffer allergies from pollen, dust, and various air pollutants - ie rape seed. Who knows what your horse might be allergic to and it is unlikely that a vet during a brief visit will ever find out. You as owner have to search for the clues. 

Inevitably proof of a serious problem can only come with an analysis of any mucous from the nose, a blood test and an Xray of the lungs - but those tests can be expensive - and hopefully in your case, with all that dust about as a
possible cause, unnecessary. 

Be lucky 

B G


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Scoutrider, if you horses ate the straw then it wasn't wheat straw, more likely oat straw. Since we don't know your local I can only suggest that if you get snow, then set out very small piles about 20' apart then use a hay fork and shake them well. Also put his hay in a small mesh hay net. It slows his dining right down. When his lungs are inflamed it puts pressure in the diaphragm which you have witnessed with the hard exhalations. If his stomach is fairly full this too puts pressure on the diaphram. So a large mouthful of hay creates a no win situation for him.


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

Sorry I haven't been able to get back online to update... this had been a nutty few days, between the heat and assorted small crises, horsey and otherwise... :-|

Scout colicked last Tuesday afternoon. He'd been outside all morning, brought him down for his afternoon feeding at 4 pm. He was acting dopey and out of it (best way I can describe it...), breathing a little heavily (not really distressed per se, more like coming off a workout), and not at all interested in his grain or hay, and laid right down in his stall. Being a little dozey and laying down in the afternoon isn't too unusual for him, but ignoring food is a major red flag for Mr. Bottomless Pit, and with the recent respiratory issues his breathing is obviously something I continue to monitor and track. I stood and watched him for a few minutes, mainly to see if his breathing would relax on its own (he could well have been cantering circles right before I brought him in, for all I knew), or if he was having an attack. Within fifteen minutes, he was on to an absolutely textbook case of colic. Nosing at his sides, wanting to not only lay down but also roll, a couple of little poos, but very little and far greener and looser than is normal. I'm attributing his slightly elevated breathing that afternoon to the colic and not to heaves at this point.

Some walking and some bute and banamine later, he was fine; came right out of the colic and did fine overnight, was his old perky self by the next morning; eating, drinking, normal poo, good gut sounds through the stethoscope. 

So, after that crisis came figuring out the reason for the colic. I know exactly what he ate and had access to in the barn; nothing amiss in his hay (I'm already checking that for anything even slightly out of place before I soak it) or his grain, no changes in his grain, supplements, etc. With that in mind, I concluded that whatever upset his system, he found in the pasture that day. I headed out and took a sample of anything that wasn't grass and started identifying. As dry as it has been, the good grass is really starting to die back, and I wouldn't doubt that the horses may be looking harder at things that they wouldn't otherwise. 

After some research, I discovered that there is a significant amount of ragweed out there. NOT ragWORT, which I know is quite toxic to horses, but ragWEED. A) not good news for his respiratory issues. While we aren't quite to the time of year when the stuff starts flowering and pollinating, I'm not waiting until that time comes to do something about it. B) it just isn't "horse food," whether it is what actually caused last week's colic or not. C) for all I know, just eating the stuff could be triggering his heaves attacks -- I haven't found any sources saying that allergies could be triggered by eating ragweed, but I haven't found any sources evidencing the contrary, either. At any rate, I've been pulling up all the ragweed in the pasture (and everywhere else I see it around the farm) for the last few days. None of the other weeds that I sampled were anything to worry about, or out there in any real quantity (i.e., 3-4 small individual plants spread over a half-acre paddock). 

Scout has been in the barn since his colic; I don't want to risk him getting into the ragweed that hasn't been pulled yet and colicking again, and it has been too bloody hot for him to be out there without shade anyway. The weeding process has been slower than I'd like due to the heat as well, but it's getting done as quickly as possible, with care to remove the roots and dispose of the plants away from the barn and pasture. I've been hand-grazing both of the horses during cooler hours, keeping an eye peeled for any ragweed in the area. We did get a little rain two days ago, and again last night -- not enough to put water back in our creek, but the pasture grass is greening up a little, so perhaps weeds won't look so much like a dining option now. 

On the bright side, Scout has had absolutley ZERO observed coughs since his colic last Tuesday. I'm really beginning to think that exposure to the ragweed has been our problem all along -- both of his heaves attacks as well as his colic episode occurred during/immediately after being out in the pasture for several hours, and this entire saga began soon after he started going outside regularly for hours at a time back when the winter weather broke in late April/early May. He hasn't breathed or apparently felt as good recently as he has since he's been stuck inside due to the heat and the ragweed discovery. So, now I'm continuing to watch him like a hawk, keeping up with the Tri-Hist supplement, soaking his hay, and other heaves-maintenance/control measures, and keeping my fingers crossed that this is just a bad ragweed allergy and a heinous year for ragweed. It's definitely been a learning experience for me; I don't have seasonal allergies myself, and never knew what exactly ragweed looks like until now. I know I'll never mistake it for anything else after all this... :-(

Anyway, that's where we're standing now. 

@Barry: I have been taking note of everything so far, every little hiccup or out-of-the-ordinary thing, and the conditions at the time of the observation. He has been observed by the vet when the asthma-like attacks were in progress, and she has also heard his coughing in-person. I keep records of the type and quantity of his grain, hay, pasture, and water consumption as well as his weight in general, and have those records going back to his purchase in May 2009. I will look into video-taping his coughing at the next opportunity, although the coughs are so rare, sudden, and brief that I doubt the camera would turn on before it was too late to capture on film. I've been taking all possible precautions regarding his bedding, hay, and housekeeping to prevent another "asthma attack." I also have a vial of dexamethazone on hand in the event of another full-blown attack, and he is on a twice-daily regimen of antihistamine supplement as per the vet's instructions. I'll look into sugar beet as well -- I've never seen it at any of our local feed stores before, as it isn't a high-demand item in the area, but I will inquire. Thank you so much for your suggestions and comments; Scout and I both greatly appreciate it! 

@Saddlebag: I'll look into getting some specific wheat-straw; I've never seen an ad for straw differentiating between wheat and oat before -- If I can get my hands on some definite wheat-straw, I'll give that a try.  Mesh hay nets make me a bit nervous; Sister's horse once managed to get his teeth caught in one (hung at proper height and everything), resulting in a slightly traumatic experience for him. I do have a canvas hay bag around. I've also heard and read that feeding from the ground was preferable as it reduces any dust falling into the airway? I already do spread the hay around the pasture in the winter, similar to what you describe, mainly to simulate more natural grazing activity, rather than standing next to a pile until it's gone. I will definitely see what I can do to slow his feeding down and avoid that excess diaphragm pressure. Thank you again for all of your suggestions!! 

Anyway, there's the novel of the day... Cookies to all who read this... It may take me a while, but I'll continue to post updates and news as I can. Thank you again to everyone!!


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Scout - ref 'ragweed allergy' - well spotted by you. 

Presumably you have found on Google the sites which discuss this allergy and how it works on humans. I found: 















1-800-7 ASTHMA [email protected] which an interesting read.

The site even describes a simple allergy test for humans which might be worth considering.

I have always felt that we owners of sensitive horses don't pay enough attention as to the quality of the grass from which the hay we used is made.

Here in the UK the hedgerows are hundreds of years old and all sorts of poisonous plants lay dormant waiting for the right conditions to sprout.
The farmers make hay from grass and they sell hay as hay - they do not analyse the hay and even if they did, they could not guarantee the consistent quality of it.

But this thread brings home to me what I already feel namely the more we know about horses, the more we recognise that there is yet more to know about horses.

There is a very apt saying: "no feet, no horse" but the lungs are equally important - if not more so. It is the relatively huge size of a horse's lungs which give it the stamina it needs to carry a rider at speed and over long distances.
Let us hope your fella stops coughing. 

Barry G


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