# Black horses and sun bleaching



## MyJumper (Jul 10, 2012)

Do black horses bleach out in the summer? My barn has a black horse that does not bleach out. However all the brown horses there bleach out. 
Can black horses bleach out or is it just browns- mistakenly called black- that bleach out?


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## MyJumper (Jul 10, 2012)

Never mind, I found some articles that answer my question.
This thread can be deleted.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Depends on the horse. There are non fading blacks that do not but many blacks will fade. Some worse than others and I find if they have are smokey black they fade more.


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## budley95 (Aug 15, 2014)

true black horses wont bleach out, dark bays may lighten up but copper deficiencies can make black horses have reddish/brown streaks, normally through the mane and tail.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

I've got a black mare that the previous owners kept penned and under cover 24/7. We let her out at will. In Az sun she gets a "dusty" tone to her black and lots of split ends in her mane. Other than that she pretty much stays black.

But, my bay lightens in the summer and gets a really pretty deep color in winter.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

budley95 said:


> true black horses wont bleach out, dark bays may lighten up but copper deficiencies can make black horses have reddish/brown streaks, normally through the mane and tail.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


*cough* "true" black horses can and do fade. There is no known genetic difference between a "true" black and a "fading" black.


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## taharah (Oct 21, 2013)

budley95 said:


> true black horses wont bleach out, dark bays may lighten up but copper deficiencies can make black horses have reddish/brown streaks, normally through the mane and tail.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


just also affirming that true black horses bleach out. i own a homozygous black who bleaches out so badly she looks bay.


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## Atomicodyssey (Apr 13, 2014)

I have a black horse who looks like a dark bay with a black head right now. In winter he is coal, but the Florida summer sun does a number on him. I had a red dun who looked like a dark golden palomino in the summer... except with a red mane and tail.


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## SeaBreezy (Jun 29, 2012)

Yep, my little black mare totally looks like a brown horse right now. In the winter, her coat is coal black. Summer, forget it.


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## ChitChatChet (Sep 9, 2013)

My bay has gotten very dark throughout the summer. I am shocked at much darker he is now than he was last summer.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

My black is black as coal even after all the summer sun.


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## frlsgirl (Aug 6, 2013)

My bay Morgan is turning into a chestnut...so ready for fall!


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

A "true" black that doesn't fade in the sun? Sign me up xD!


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## taharah (Oct 21, 2013)

budley95 said:


> true black horses wont bleach out, dark bays may lighten up but copper deficiencies can make black horses have reddish/brown streaks, normally through the mane and tail.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



my homozygous mare bleaches out so bad she looks bay


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Saddlebag said:


> My black is black as coal even after all the summer sun.


You're in _Canada_! Your summer is like our winter! :rofl: ...UV is what does most of the fading, and the more obliquely the sunlight travels through the atmosphere, the more "watered-down" the radiation (because the photons get absorbed and re-emitted at lower energy levels along the way).


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

budley95 said:


> true black horses wont bleach out, dark bays may lighten up but copper deficiencies can make black horses have reddish/brown streaks, normally through the mane and tail.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry but Budley is more-or-less correct on both counts. 

http://ultimatehorsesite.com/colors/black.html or, if folks don't like this article before you start going off on each other, Google "do true black horses fade" and read the credible articles.

When I lived on the OH/PA border I owned a horse that carried the true black gene. She spent all of her days outside and was as inky blue-black in September as she was in May.

I had another black horse that would fade to a patchy very dark bay by July.

*Copper deficiency and fading:*

Technically copper deficiency *doesn't cause* fading but, *it does allow* it to happen.

How copper and zinc affect a horse's coat | horseandponydirect.com This article is on the technical side and won't appeal to a lot of people so:



> Sufficient copper is needed to produce the pigment in buckskins and chestnuts and both copper and zinc are needed for black/brown/grey coats.
> 
> The purpose of the pigments is to act as a shield against light. The fading is caused by ultraviolet light oxidising the pigments. If there are less than optimal levels in the diet, the hair will be more prone to bleaching but will look normal until enough pigment has been damaged to cause the colour change.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

I must have missed something. Any horse that has the E gene whether EE or Ee is a black. Truly black. Now he can be fading or non fading and to my knowledge there is no way at this point to determine the difference so you can't say true black horses won't bleach out as any horse that is EE or Ee is true black. A smokey black is still genetically truly black though the phenotype is modified and this horse because of the dilution factor will show a difference in body color vs the points so by default he is a fading black. If you are using true black to equal non fading black you have to make that understood. I don't see the two as interchangeable.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

budley95 said:


> true black horses wont bleach out, dark bays may lighten up but copper deficiencies can make black horses have reddish/brown streaks, normally through the mane and tail.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I just read on a friesian info site that black horses need 6 times more copper than another colored horse.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Once again there is no known genetic difference between a nonfading and fading black. 

Both nonfading and fading blacks are TRUE blacks on a genetic level.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

'No known' doesn't mean it doesn't exist - it means it hasn't yet been discovered
The very fact that some black horses are non-fading and some are means that there is a difference and eventually genetic scientists will discover it


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

If it was a diet or mineral problem that makes the difference between the blacks that fade vs the blacks that don't fade, then two blacks of the same size and nutrition needs with the same diet would either not fade or would both fade to some degree. My mom has several blacks, all well fed, grained and have mineral blocks. Some never fade and others always fade. 

There are genetics at play, I would liken it to people sunbathing. What makes it consistent that my oldest sister and I can get a golden tan quite easily with wearing sunscreen while frying to a bright red without sun protection and another of my sisters can lay out in the sun for hours with no sunscreen and still be a bright pasty white. It has been like that ever since we were little kids and still until this day. There are genetics at play, not controlled by diet or outside forces. Nutrition can play a part, it can make your hair healthier, shiny and richer in color but even a black horse that fades badly in the sun will still fade to a degree with even the highest amounts of supplements to help coat color. I still get a golden tan when I have lathered myself in SPF 50, it takes a little longer but I still tan.

If a fading black horse was kept indoors at all times the sun was out, they would not fade even without the added coat supplements. They are genetically black and it is the exposure to the sun that bleaches their color.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Tell that to my deceased APHA mare. Her diet never changed. Some summers she faded, other she did not.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

NdAppy said:


> Tell that to my deceased APHA mare. Her diet never changed. Some summers she faded, other she did not.


Wonder if she had a hidden cream in there... The smokey blacks seem inconsistent with bleaching every year LOL

My mom would love it if her fading blacks would just not fade for once and would be cranky if her non fading blacks suddenly faded ROFL
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I had a black horse that never faded regardless of what he was fed (I knew him before I owned him) or how he was kept - stabled or out 24/7


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

SunnyDraco said:


> Wonder if she had a hidden cream in there... The smokey blacks seem inconsistent with bleaching every year LOL
> 
> My mom would love it if her fading blacks would just not fade for once and would be cranky if her non fading blacks suddenly faded ROFL
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I highly doubt it as her sire nor dam never produced cream foals out of noncream matings.


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## Change (Jul 19, 2014)

Don't have anything to add as to the genetics of color except to say that my sister's two spotted drafts are 24/7 outdoors in the _dismal, overcast_ central AZ desert, and they don't fade.

(_italics denoting a tad of sarcasm)_


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

So, this thread has fascinated me (because of nerdy science interests) and I've wanted to come back to it. I'd not seen a fadeproof black horse myself, but then my black dog appears to be so fadeproof I don't notice the difference between summer and winter colours. So that, and some posts here, got me thinking.

Pigment bleaching is usually caused by UV exposure, which varies with seasons and geographical locations, and - very obviously - time spent in or out of the shade. You can accentuate pigment bleaching by adding water into the mix, as any of you who ever had extra-sunbleached hair after childhood summers spent swimming will know. Those of you who love wearing black clothes know that hanging them in the shade to dry (and inside out) is a great idea, especially with non-colourfast garments like jeans. 

Besides UV, some chemicals, like chlorine and peroxide, are also very good at fading many pigments. Of course, the pigments in our clothes are different to the ones in our hair and skin, and pigments vary in their susceptibility to fading by different methods. 

Melanin is the main pigment that colours skin and hair. Different amounts are behind different colours - little in blonde and grey hair, more in brown, most in black, and most of all in the darkest black. (Human hair colours used here for simplicity, but similar principles in horses.)

If you have lots and lots of melanin in a very black-coated animal, then it's possible you could be losing, say, 20% of that pigment through UV bleaching and hardly notice, because there is still so much left. Another black-coated animal might be starting at that 80% (comparatively) level, and losing that next 20% may be very noticeable. That's one possibility at play here.

Whether there are also different variants of melanin with different fade resistances, I am not sure - we'd have to look that one up. And if that's the case, there may be nutritional as well as genetic factors in that particular scenario, just like the general subject of colour in living things involves genetic and environmental factors.

In the skin, extra melanin can be produced quickly in response to UV exposure. Skin turns over quite quickly as well, with the dead layer on the outside continuously replaced by fresh new cells dividing in the living layer beneath. So, you can tan quite quickly.

Hair doesn't work quite in the same way, because the hair you see is dead material, being extruded from a live hair root - much like your fingernails. It also takes quite a few weeks to months (depending on species, location on body, genetic and environmental factors) for a hair to grow to full length, sit there for a while, and eventually fall out. It would be really interesting to know whether there is any (more delayed) increase in production of _hair_ pigmentation in response to UV exposure.

Anyway, if hair is turning over quickly, then a set amount of UV exposure is going to result in less accumulated bleaching and damage in the overall coat than if it's turning over slowly. Again, genetic and environmental (including nutritional) factors, plus relative age, are some factors coming into play here.

Horses have such obviously different summer and winter coats that just the change from one to the other may result in pre-programmed colour differences (as occur in the Arctic fox, white in winter, not white in summer!). I have a very dark horse officially classified as "brown" - some of the hair around his muzzle isn't black. His father was the same colour as him, his mother is a chestnut. When he gets his _summer_ coat and I look closely, I can see that some of his hairs are black and some are chestnut from the time they grow (this part not due to sun bleaching, although bleaching can modify his colour further). In winter, he is almost exclusively black. (Now this guy is named Sunsmart after an Australian skin cancer campaign, because from the time he was born he always rested in the shade no matter what other horses were doing.)

Nutritional deficiencies can interfere with lots of things, including production of pigmentation. This is why, for instance, bad copper deficiency in cattle results in the classic "spectacles" look of having lighter hair around the eyes (and a more washed-out coat etc).

But I think the coolest colour thing of all that I've come across is the Siamese cat, which is derived originally from the Burmese...dark chocolate cats... but along the line got a mutation in its colour genes that resulted in a _temperature sensitive_ melanin production process: Pigment is no longer properly produced in the warmer areas of the body - only in the cooler extremities. A Siamese cat's colour is essentially a thermal map... When a Siamese gets a plaster cast for a broken leg, the leg can actually be lighter than the other legs when the cast comes off, until the hair is gradually replaced with "normally" pigmented hair again. Likewise, clipping one for a spay can result in the initial re-growth being a little darker, before things go back to "normal" - especially if the clipping happens in winter...

No Siamese colour _horses_ out there yet though, I think... or has anyone spotted one?


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## danicelia24 (Jul 16, 2013)

Just putting my 2 cents in. I have a black mare and she does get sunbleached. In the spring when she is shedding she will look bay, then she gets a glossy black coat and about midway through the summer she will sunbleach again. Coming into fall she will be as black as ever and nothing in her diet or habits will change. I am attaching pics and the last one was taken a couple of days ago.
1- springtime shedding, 5/15
2- early summer black, 6/16
3- midsummer bleaching, 7/24
4- end of summer black, 8/29


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## Frihorkas (Oct 2, 2014)

We can always use UV protecting blankets on Friesians


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