# Giraffe neck and scraping the clouds



## Snookeys (Sep 23, 2010)

Get her to move off her rump with lots of walk/trot trot/walk transitions and half-halts. She could also be evading the bit. You ultimately want her reaching forward into the bit. Try going into a roundpen and letting your reins loose. Ask her to trot, then let her be. Once you feel her start to pick up speed (faster than her initial trot) do a one rein stop on her, back her a few steps to get the weight on her booty, and take off in the trot again. Keep doing this and she will not only be going slower without tons of contact, she will learn to take off with impulsion from behind (and, without the contact stopping her front end, she will maintain it). This should get her to drop her head to a relaxed position. You eventually work up to doing it with contact on the reins, but starting off with none at all is best. Getting a horse to drop its head will take more than one exercise... you'll have to get her a strong top line. The exercise I suggested is one of many that will build up your horse's muscle. Good luck!


----------



## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Have you had her teeth checked and your saddle fit checked?


----------



## coffeeaddict (Jun 18, 2010)

She had her teeth floated not too long ago, and her saddle fits. I think she just doesn't have a clue what I expect of her. She is so used to going around with her neck up in the air that she probably doesn't see any other way.

Snookeys, I'll work on the transitions more. I've done a ton of them from walk to trot and back to walk but I haven't asked her back up every time. Thanks!


----------



## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Do you have conformation shots of her. She might be built in a way that yes, she will carry her head higher.

Other than that, I can not see it as comfy for any horse to move with its head up and its back all inverted.


What is not so long ago when it comes to teeth? And has your saddle been checked by a professional?


----------



## netty83 (Sep 21, 2010)

Have you tried draw reins. These are a good training tool when trying to teach your horse to carry it's head lower. These should not be used as a solution to the problem but using them for half of a schooling session and then taking them off for the other half should eventually help your horse to learn that carrying his head lower is better. My instructor uses them on her dressage horse while training at home which is encouraging his head to be lower when at competitions.


----------



## coffeeaddict (Jun 18, 2010)

I haven't tried draw reins. I'm really hoping to get her carrying herself better without any gadgets, but if all else fails I will look into them. 

She had her teeth floated four months ago. I don't have access to a professional saddle fitter, but the tack shop does fitting and they seem to know what their talking about. I trailored her over there and had her fitted before I bought the saddle. 

I've also watched every youtube video I can find on saddle fitting and from what I can see hers fits. I'm obviously not a professional at it, but between my obsessive video watching and the people at the tack shop I think we're ok on the saddle. 

I've attached some pics. She still needs to gain some weight and I'm not the best photographer, but hopefully this can give you a good idea of her build.


----------



## netty83 (Sep 21, 2010)

Gorgeous markings!


----------



## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

I think AB was on to something. I think her conformation doesn't allow her to keep her head much lower than it is in those pictures. Her neck attaches very high and she does have a very long swan neck. Even if she were to collect and tuck her nose under, she is still going to have a long neck that is going to feel like it is in your face. 

You could always try waiting til she relaxes into her gait. She may just be doing the "yea! lets trot lets trot!" nose in the air, stargazing stuff. I would keep her going, let her find her rhythm. If you can pull off a half decent 2 point with a good bit of slack in the reins, after a few times around a ring they usually settle into a 1-2-1-2-1-2 balanced, cadenced rhythm. Give her lots of praise every time she relaxes and stretches down. She may just be getting over excited. 

Good luck with her! Keep us posted!


----------



## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

coffeeaddict said:


> I haven't tried draw reins. I'm really hoping to get her carrying herself better without any gadgets, but if all else fails I will look into them.


Unless you know what you're doing, draw reins aren't the most effective tool. They can be downright cruel in the wrong hands. Also, too often they're used as a shortcut instead of getting the proper training for the animal.

Looking at her pictures, I'm going to have to agree with AlwaysBehind; her head and neck set isn't going to allow her to drop her head to get the set you want.

Saddlebreds carry their heads and neck high because that's the way they're set on their bodies. Unless you force her into an unnatural position, she won't willingly carry them lower.


----------



## coffeeaddict (Jun 18, 2010)

I had a feeling I was working against nature, but I will admit that I'm really disappointed. She is such a hallow mover that it's not exactly a comfortable ride. 

There have been short moments when she will lower her head at the trot and round her back and I can see how nicely that feels, but those moments are so few and far between they may have just been flukes. 

Should I just give up on her ever being more round and collected and let her shoot that head up all she wants? It's to the point where I don't really feel like riding her anymore because it's like trying to ride a pogostick on crack.


----------



## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

Shes 1/2 saddlebred isn't she? I think that half is going to make it hard for her to want to lower that head and drive from behind. Lots of trot-canter-trot transitions should help her balance. Letting her find her rhythm should help with the comfort of her trot. It may sound crazy but I have used those rhythm beads to help a horse find a good cadence before. It may just help her a bit. 

As far as the pogostick goes, thats more to do with her build than it is her hyperactivity. I think you could find a way to optimize her potential. Try to get her to collect a bit more each time you ride. Once she is collected and driving, it should be much more comfortable. 

Do you ride her english or western? Have you considered saddleseat?


----------



## BrewCrew (May 12, 2010)

I would ride the heck out of her until she is tired and relaxed (as un-fun as that would be for you). She should drop her head at least slightly to a comfortable spot for her once she realizes that she's going to be working for a while at a steady pace. As soon as she lets her head down, even an inch, make sure you reward it vocally and/or if you are riding with contact drop your contact slightly so she feels that having her head there is comfortable. Try for 2 or 3 of these drops in a session, then gradually increase what you expect.

Also try 'rocking' the reins (not see-sawing) until she lets her head down to avoid the bit, then release instantly. 

Good luck, you have such a pretty girl!!!


----------



## Snookeys (Sep 23, 2010)

BrewCrew said:


> Also try 'rocking' the reins (not see-sawing) until she lets her head down to *avoid the bit*, then release instantly.


Isn't rewarding her by avoiding the bit opposite of what you want? :/


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Some good advice here. My friend has a NSH (half sdlbd and half arab) who also runs with her nose in the air and hollowed out. It is such a rough ride, and harder than heck to find a saddle taht fits a hoollowed out back like that.

I agree ; let her trot out freely (you post the trot or 2pt it) for a good long time without asking anything from the bit. In fact , push her even faster than she wants to go for short periods of time. Like a nudge to just get her to speed u, then let her coast down to her natural rythm but trot, trot trot! After she has slowed down you start to take up some contact and again ask her to go faster. If she raises her head just maintain soft contact and lightly tickle the inside rein to invite her to drop her nose, If she does, then give a HUGE release and let her come to a stop if she wishes. Walk on a long rein with pats, and start up again. you let her trot her way first, then it's slowly uptake contact and ask for a "give", you reward, relax and start agian. As you go along the "she trots her way" become shorter and the "here's some contact" gets longer. If you get something like 5 good gives, you are done for the day. Don't worry, she will remember .
Also, do you know how to _"show her the way to the ground"? It's a cowboy thing that they teach the horse to reach down to the ground while they are mounted at a standstill._ You kind of very gently take up minute contact and keep your hands out to the sides, like you are driving a wheelbarrow, and then vibrate one rein and then the other and if the horse reacts , you give your hands forward to any reaction. As you go allong the reaction that you want is for the horse to reach downward and outward, and when she does you follow her. The better you get at this, the better able you will be at giving downward to follow her without losing contact. Initially, you might have to give big, and have aloop in the rein , and might have to start from the beginnnig over and over. I also say, "Down!" when I do this. This is an excellent skill to teach a horse becasue when their head is downward they have a physical reaction of relaxation. IT's hardwired in.
YOu can practice showing her the way to the ground while standing or if she reacts by walking off, just ignore it and stay focussed on her reaching forward and downward and only then does she get the reward of release.

Good luck.


----------



## BrewCrew (May 12, 2010)

Snookeys said:


> Isn't rewarding her by avoiding the bit opposite of what you want? :/


True.  I'm only saying this is what I would try. Also, there are only so many things you can teach at a time.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

You are not rewarding her for avoiding the bit. You are rewarding her for "giving to the bit". If she lowers her head and bends a little at the poll/jaw, she has given to the bit. LIke bowing to it. so, that is what you reward.


----------



## appywalker (Oct 6, 2010)

What breed of horse is she?
she looks like she might be part walking horse, saddlebred, based on her confirmation and it's true based on your photos there probably isnt much you can do to get her head down she's just not built that way....but she has beautiful markings.


----------



## coffeeaddict (Jun 18, 2010)

Tinyliny, I will try that!

BrewCrew, I have tried rocking the reins a little as this is what the trainer at the barn also suggested, and she will drop her head for a very short second, but then it's right back up. She will not hold it for anything. I don't want to be rocking in her mouth the whole ride, she'll just get frustrated. So I've stopped doing that. 

Appywalker, when I bought her from the auction they said she was a trakehner.....yeah, no. She is probably a saddlebred cross. That's what everyone who sees her says.

Corino, I ride english. I grew up riding saddleseat though and have considered doing that with her. I'm really wanting to get more into dressage though and I have a feeling she will never be able to do that with me no matter how much training she has. I'm going to be fighting with her body to make it come anywhere near being collected for dressage.


----------



## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Even she can do basic dressage. If you find a good dressage instructor who is willing to work with you and the horse (and not just teach what she always teaches) I am guessing you can get her using herself the best she can.


----------



## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Alwaysbehind said:


> Even she can do basic dressage. If you find a good dressage instructor who is willing to work with you and the horse (and not just teach what she always teaches) I am guessing you can get her using herself the best she can.


Just because she has a high set neck doesn't mean we go "OH WELL I guess she can't do it". A lot of dressage horses have naturally high set necks and somehow they manage to be round. When their neck is level, they just look uphill unlike many other breeds and in my books, it makes training easier than when you're trying to lift all 1500lbs of horse off it's own front end.

Anyways. I don't mean this to be mean, but were it me I would lunge the horse in side reins and/or pay someone to train the horse for a while and then you take lessons on an experienced horse that knows its job. As riders it is important we realize our limitations and take time to teach ourselves and the horse separately. It's like you're trying to teach the horse a piano lesson you haven't even learned yet. Even if you are only able to lunge the horse in side reins, do that for a week and every time after before you ride her. She needs to gain some understanding of what you want because right now she doesn't know. As far as once she in under saddle, rhythm, relaxation/suppleness and finally contact. Until you have the first two steps, you will not have the third.

Good luck!


----------



## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Anebel, I believe my post told her to try it..... Why are you quoting me and saying 'yes she can do it'?

Did you look at the conformation of her mare, BTW? It will be next to impossible for that mare to collect with any success. Shoving her in side reins will not help her, unless the goal is to cause her discomfort.

And no, I have no issue with side reins.


----------



## rumba12 (Aug 15, 2010)

How does she work on the lunge or in a round pen? Does she relax and reach down, whether a lot or a little is not important...what's important is that she is rhythmic, relaxed and reaching down. You need to be able to seperate her ability and yours. So, what's she capable on her own and what are you capable of getting out of her while in the saddle? Sometimes they are two very different things.


----------



## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Alwaysbehind said:


> Anebel, I believe my post told her to try it..... Why are you quoting me and saying 'yes she can do it'?
> 
> Did you look at the conformation of her mare, BTW? It will be next to impossible for that mare to collect with any success. Shoving her in side reins will not help her, unless the goal is to cause her discomfort.
> 
> And no, I have no issue with side reins.


Oh because I agreed with it lol. Sorry! I should have been more clear!

There is more than one way to kill a cow. I'm not talking put the side reins around her knees and hog tie the poor thing. I lunge horses no lower than on the lowest ring of a surcingle (so about mid barrel). This mare would benefit from that.


----------



## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Yes, I agree. Sorry for the confusion.


----------



## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

A high set neck does not mean collection is impossible - a high set neck is still perfectly capable of poll flexion and suppleness. The only difference between a high stepping upright gaited breed and a lot of the Spanish dressage breeds is size - Andalusians for example have much the same problem but they're a lot more "baroque" and it doesn't appear so extreme. You're never going to find an Andalusian that can go around like a Western Pleasure QH naturally!

It just requires some slightly different tactics as often normal exercises to create softness and roundness simply won't work due to the extreme angle of the head and nose. I have an Arab and my Dressage coach actually ended up coaching me in draw reins briefly just to SHOW her what we wanted. After a couple of sessions, she was associating the exercises with being round and giving to the bit as opposed to lifting her nose to evade it.

You have to be very careful, but often draw reins are almost a necessity in some higher headed breeds that are able to get so high above the bit that you can't really do much with them. In my experience it doesn't take much to show them how much more comfortable it is to be round and supple - they've run around their entire lives with their head in the air and just never known any better!

Here are some photos of what Zierra was and what we brought her into with only a few short sessions of draw reins (after trying without them for several weeks) and intense work at suppling and softening exercises!:


----------

