# Which Pattern Is She?



## Paintedponies1992 (Nov 17, 2013)

I'm truly stumped here :/ I want to say she's a Tovero, but I'm not one hundred percent certain. Her sire was a Tobiano/Overo (that's what it says on the papers) and her dam is solid. Just need a second opinion before I put it down on her registration form.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Tobiano does not put white on the face. Pretty classic otherwise. Can you get a picture of the other side and of her face? That is an interesting "smear" on her nose. Can you get pics of dad?

You can put tovero though it's horridly general and doesn't really mean anything. I know I would want to know exactly what genes she has. Definitely tobiano imo, and probably something else too.

There are definitely experts on here that can tell you


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

Hmmm, She is an interesting case...

Chilaa and NDAppy are the ones to ask...

Definite Tobiano. With her "star" so far up on her forehead, makes me wonder if she carries frame. And then there is the lip, I'd associate that with Sabino, or splash.

She may carry all 3 Overo patterns, plus tobiano.

as far as her papers go, you'll have to put "Tovero" because APHA doesn't specify the different overo patterns.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Paintedponies1992 (Nov 17, 2013)

I do have a picture of the other side and of her face. I don't have a good picture of the sire, I did find a picture of him online though. I have her half-brother and he's a chestnut overo, he's also out of a solid mare.

Here's the sire
http://www.equinehits.com/photos/06/horses/195458x1.jpg

And I added a picture of her brother.


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

I would say Frame and Splash for sure. Good chance of Sabino as well. On top of the Tobiano. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Paintedponies1992 (Nov 17, 2013)

Thank you guys  this really helps alot.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Yeah I would say tobiano, frame (star and looking at brother/dad), sabino (lip white and smear, and again brother/dad)

She is super cute!


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

She may have other patterns going on but if you're asking for registration purposes APHA would classify her as a tobiano.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Why wouldn't they classify her as tovero?


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## Kristyjog (Nov 11, 2013)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

Because they don't consider facial markings as a sign of another pattern unless they're excessive. Unless they've changed policy since I quit breeding them. To show you an example I had APHA decide on both these foals because I wasn't sure whether they would classify them as tobi or tovero. 

On this one they registered him as a tovero:



This one a tobi, even though he also has a partial blue eye:



This one who is patterned similar to the op's foal is also registered as tobi:


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Interesting. Thanks for the info.


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## Tryst (Feb 8, 2012)

You guys might find this an interesting read, as it talks about white facial markings on tobiano from equine tapestry --> Opening a can of worms |

From what I have seen APHA often registers horses that appear tobiano except for slight facial markings as tobiano, NOT as tovero. We know that registries are the very last place that one should go for info on color genetics, but I suspect that even if the OP marks this horse as tovero that she will be registered as a tobiano unless she is tested and shown to carry additional genes.

OP should you ever think about breeding her she should absolutely be tested for frame!


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## Paintedponies1992 (Nov 17, 2013)

Tryst said:


> OP should you ever think about breeding her she should absolutely be tested for frame!


Thank you, I wasn't thinking of getting her tested, but now I will make sure she does now, just in case down the road I do decide to breed her. 

And thank you everyone for the info, it really helps!


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## Paintedponies1992 (Nov 17, 2013)

And I just realized that I put this in the wrong thread, I should never do anything late at night XD


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

That's ok lol. Very interesting, especially the second foal shown above which doesn't exactly have normal facial markings. I feel that encourages being inaccurate and breeding for color without understanding color and is possibly a cause of all the lethal whites since there are people out there who will say "but my horse is a tobiano so I didn't need to test". Sigh. I agree with Tryst to test.

Does APHA accept testing?


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

No, Yogi, the APHA sucks. I know of 2 for sure horses that are solid white that are registered as Solid Paint Bred when they are literally one big spot. Just take what they do with a grain of salt and continue your day. No use fighting with them because it would take quite a bit to get them to change.

And I am unsure about frame on the filly. Definitely tobiano, but I'd say splash over frame, the say her snip on her nose is way off to one side. Very splash thing to do. But testing for frame is not a bad thing to do anyway. 

If she does test positive for frame, you can have the APHA add "N/O for frame overo" added onto her papers as just a sidenote.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Tobiano. She has no Overo characteristics. For registration, the other stuff does not matter.

Nancy


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## Tryst (Feb 8, 2012)

I agree that she does not show obvious signs of frame, however frame has been known to hide, and it is obvious that the sire is frame, sooooo... I was just saying that if she were to consider breeding (not saying she should, but if...) it is way better to spend the $25 and know for 100% that she is negative than to end up with a dead foal. IMO all horses in breeds that carry frame should be tested before breeding.


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## Paintedponies1992 (Nov 17, 2013)

I don't really have a plan to breed her, I was going to breed my Quarter horse mare in the spring but ended up opting out of breeding and just buying a baby already on the ground. But if I ever had to sell her it would be a good idea to have the test done so that the new owner knows if they ever decided to breed her. Now to just finish these papers and send them.


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

greentree said:


> Tobiano. She has no Overo characteristics. For registration, the other stuff does not matter.
> 
> Nancy



No overo characterists? The white on the face is a characteristic of some pattern of overo. Tobiano does not put white on the face.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Poseidon said:


> No, Yogi, the APHA sucks. I know of 2 for sure horses that are solid white that are registered as Solid Paint Bred when they are literally one big spot. Just take what they do with a grain of salt and continue your day. No use fighting with them because it would take quite a bit to get them to change.
> 
> And I am unsure about frame on the filly. Definitely tobiano, but I'd say splash over frame, the say her snip on her nose is way off to one side. Very splash thing to do. But testing for frame is not a bad thing to do anyway.
> 
> If she does test positive for frame, you can have the APHA add "N/O for frame overo" added onto her papers as just a sidenote.


 Ugh, you would think if you had PROOF that they might budge..


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

For registration purposes she would be considered Tobiano:wink:. Facial white is common on most registered as tobiano. If the facial white was excessive then yes I would call her Tovero,but it isn't. Her body patterning is also typical Tobiano. I wouldn't go trying to trying to read other possible color patterns in this horse that maybe minimally expressed,as they won't be looking at that in registry:-(.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

^^ In response to that-
Obviously the thread was for registration purposes, but as far as figuring out what other genes the horse has that is really a matter of opinion. I would personally like to know what genes my horse has. You, or the OP, may not care beyond registering the horse correctly. Unless you are breeding it doesn't really matter. Just a matter of personal preference. Of course if you are breeding it is important to know details.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Yogiwick said:


> Ugh, you would think if you had PROOF that they might budge..


You would think, but alas, too much work for them.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

Well really, how many APHA members would go for this? You'd have to have every horse tested, even geldings, and then not all patterns have been identified. I think the membership would be in an uproar.

That would be no different then AQHA having to do the same with every horse registered that had facial markings or socks.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Frankly, not enough members. I huge portion of them only know tobiano, overo, and tovero and just don't care enough to look past that. It'd be a hassle for the organization to do, realistically. Unless, of course, they were to do something similar to the AQHA with their genetic panel and cut a deal with UC Davis for a color genetics panel at a reduced price and just tack it onto the registration price because you already have to send in hair for DNA verification. 

It's more that they have no desire to look at any testing done. That's where it gets annoying. I could send them paperwork saying my solid APHA mare carries frame but they're still going to tell me that her phenotype is still solid. They could just add N/O to her papers. Their biggest concern is solid or patterned.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Well, obviously frame is important...

I just meant more in the case of the OP, where you prove the horse they want to register as tobiano is in fact a tovero, if they would change it on a case by case basis. Not everyone would bother I'm sure. Not mandatory testing just "proof I would like to change my registration". Not doing so makes them seem even more backwards then they are :/

You would think THE pattern breed would care about the patterns.


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## boldnheart (Dec 14, 2013)

She looks Tobiano to me.


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## boldnheart (Dec 14, 2013)

Guide to Horse Colors and Patterns by Majnouna on deviantART


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## Pyrros (Feb 10, 2012)

I agree for registration purposes I would just put Tobiano. As for genetics, I've heard a few people say that it is suspected Tobiano CAN potentially cause face white. I do not know if this was fully confirmed or denied. However the nature of that white on her face 'sliding' off the side of her face says splash to me.

Both my gelding's sire, grand sire and grand dam were tobianos that were clearly not 'just' tobiano; lots of face white, the grand dam looked to at least have sabino along with the tobiano and the grand sire looked to be splash + sabino + tobiano. His sire was much the same, I suspect he AT LEAST also had splash as well as the tobiano. My gelding (pictured in my avatar) I would say most definitely has some form of splash with the nature of his face marking and sabino would not be far fetched either. (His dam was registered SPB but her sock and star screamed sabino). Overall APHA isn't super picky or specific in my experience. Most of their registering is just kinda in a 'catch all' sort of fashion. Looks mostly tobiano? Tobiano. Not just tobiano but not quite overo? Must be tovero. They aren't too focused on the specifics in my experience.

I agree that if you ever intend to breed her I would look into testing for frame just in case, it can be quite sneaky.


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