# Do horses 'test' us, and is it always pain related?



## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

They can test. They can be in pain You need to know tour horse well enough to be able to tell which one. 

My one will resist going forward and pin his ears. He just doesn't want to work that day. You send him for a little gallop and his ears go forward and he's back to working with you. 

If my other one did the same, I'd be looking for pain. He's a very gentle kind pleaser and testing his rider isn't in his nature. He might be lazy, but with get testy.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Horses don't "test us" - they don't have a grand strategy or explore their relationship with humans using the scientific method (e.g. come up with a hypothesis on how to get a cookie and test it). They explore ways to get whatever they want *at that moment* - to open a latch or to get out of work. Just like the latch gives in to their attempts or not, we give in to their attempts or not. Either way, they don't take it personally. If it did work, they'll do more of the same later under a similar set of stimuli. It's really no different from people - absent a prefrontal cortex and what-if scenario making, of course. If some behavior worked in their favor with a different rider before, the first time you encounter it, it may seem like your horse is a scheming little wretch (old, apparently crafty, lesson horses, for example); but really, at the beginning is always trial-and-error and (for the horse) fortuitous outcome.

I always feel squeamish when anthropomorphisms get thrown around in relation to horses. They are problem solvers, but they are not planners. They learn by experience, not by deduction or abstract thinking. They don't love us, they don't go out of their way to annoy us, they are not stubborn, they are not altruistic, they are not deceitful, they don't look forward to winning another ribbon. They always act on the premise of, "What's in it for me?" *in the moment*, and it's our responsibility to align that with what we want them to do. That's how you get a "happy" horse.


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## seabiscuit91 (Mar 30, 2017)

I whole heatedly believe they can test you. That's not to say more often than not the signs may be pain related also. 
But I think most people, would agree if you know your horses well enough, they have big personalities like us, off days like us, excited happy days like us. 
If someone thinks it's always pain related, clearly hasn't spelled a TB for a weeks and attempted the first ride back. :lol:

They are silly, clever, fun, stubborn, playful creatures. Whether they test you because they know you, test you to test your ability, or simply to try get out of a little work, they definitely can do it!


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

mmshiro said:


> I always feel squeamish when anthropomorphisms get thrown around in relation to horses. They are problem solvers, but they are not planners. They learn by experience, not by deduction or abstract thinking. They don't love us, they don't go out of their way to annoy us, they are not stubborn, they are not altruistic, they are not deceitful, they don't look forward to winning another ribbon. They always act on the premise of, "What's in it for me?" *in the moment*, and it's our responsibility to align that with what we want them to do. That's how you get a "happy" horse.


Not anthropomorphosising at all...I don't believe they are great planners, don't believe that they have concepts of abstract thinking in big ways...

Are they deceitful....well I have seen a horse walk in from the field sound, walk lame when tacked up, then be totally sound when it's decided just to untack and throw him out...not sure if that is deceit, but can they act?

Do I believe that Fergie accidentally treads on the hose that often when I am bathing her? Well actually yes I do, but it does happen a lot...

Do horses want to win ribbons, well no, don't believe they have any concept of that, but do some horses have a reaction in a positive way to an audience, yup I do believe that. Do they channel the positive energy into doing well, while others channel the energy at a show differently, and get worried. I believe some horses are show offs *cough * yes Arrow I'm thinking about you.

The testing I see, looks experimental.....so you want to brush my leg, what happens if I move it? If the brushing continues or I get sworn at, I will leave my leg here. If you stop brushing or move away, maybe I will move a bit more see what happens...


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## seabiscuit91 (Mar 30, 2017)

They don't plan, they're opportunists!


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Golden Horse said:


> Horses are at the same time reactive prey animals with small brains


Just for the record,the horse's brain is about the size of a grapefruit or about the size of a human child's brain.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Hondo said:


> Just for the record,the horse's brain is about the size of a grapefruit or about the size of a human child's brain.


And that is where I put their reasoning skills, toddler level!


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Golden Horse said:


> And that is where I put their reasoning skills, toddler level!


Just for the record, the child has a portion of the brain that is more advanced in reasoning than the horse, as in how to stack up stuff to get into the cookie jar.

That's more complex than the horse is capable of.

A toddler will test no doubt. Been there done that four times. As far as horses testing, I think testing would need to be defined before a definitive and clear answer could be given.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Golden Horse said:


> what happens if I move it?


See? Therein lies the trap of ascribing an act of experimental design onto a horse! 

"What happens if" requires a structure of the brain they don't have - and neither do human children and adolescents for that matter. Horses just act, just like toddlers just throw themselves on the ground and hold their breath - they don't contemplate the best strategy of extorting a toy or candy from their parents. 

And when the horse acts, it experiences a favorable or an unfavorable outcome. Favorable outcomes put the preceding act into the horse's toolbox, but when facing a *new* situation, the horse never *plans* on a response that has, in its estimation, the highest (or even some) likelihood of a positive outcome. A horse's learning is natural selection at work: successful responses get reinforced, unsuccessful ones forgotten.

What we can agree on is that a horse doesn't always try to find a response to a "problem" (i.e. get out of an uncomfortable situation), a horse's actions can also be playful. So it may playfully engage with you, and - voila - that action happens to produce a treat because the human interpreted it in some way that made producing a treat the "correct response". Congratulations - you've just been trained by your horse.


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

Personally I have seen a horse learn that when it limps it doesn't have to work. Said horse was ridden 7 days a week and was a buggy horse. He got an abscess and was put on stall rest, stepped on a piece of wire that poked through his sole and limped around for awhile, got put back on stall rest and was cleared completely. Rads came clean. 

Fast forward a few weeks and he started limping under saddle. Vet was called, came over, he was fine in pasture. Put him back under saddle and limped for vet. Another set of rads, testers, the works came back clean. 
Was sent to a vet school as he started limping under harness. Clean. 

He wouldn't limp except when someone handled him. After working through it he realized he couldn't get away with it and forgot about limping. 

I also believe horses test riders. I can put a greenie in front of Trouble and I can see that. Anyone who thinks horses don't test boundaries are a bit dull. How would their hierarchical system work in domestic herds and in the wild if no one tested eachother? Look out into the pasture and you'll see it.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Horses "test" their environment, all the day long. Just like you do. You are part of their environment. That is the simple and correct answer. 

But it isn't the only level of answer. Horses are subtle and sensitive creatures with their own agendas, and so are we, and we can interact in subtle and sensitive ways together. "Testing" is a crude way of saying "communicating", or "asking". 

The word "testing" has connotations which are negative, and associated with children who are doing things adults don't like, to which the proper adult response is harshness and rigidity, if not punishment. I never use that word myself, because if I think of my horse as a toddler who has to be made to understand that I have all the power and they have to obey me, I am set up all wrong for us learning to be soft and trusting with each other. 

My horse is always asking things. Can I stop here without being told to? Can I twist my head around so I don't have to engage my back? Can I rub my itchy face on you? If your answer is rigid and punitive, that's a bigger and more emotional one than is called for, and it will have bigger and more emotional consequences. A lot of times the better answer is, "well, no, but if you try it my way you won't be sorry."


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

It's been 50 years since I took Developmental Psychology so I Googled adolescent prefrontal cortex. Sure enough, it's not wired up yet as a teenager. Don't remember that. May be something learned in the last 50 years. Interesting.

Horses don't love as humans do, however that is, I'm still a little foggy on that. But horses do prefer to be around certain other horses in the herd. I know this from almost living with a herd of horses fro the last 3 1/2 years. They have buddies within the herd.

I think of it as a "social distance", and a horse's social distance to use can be less or greater.

Read a book recently, Evidence Based Horsemanship with the main author being a neuropsychologist. And he does say the horse has a frontal lobe but not as large or complex as the humans. Tough reading in some parts but interesting with lots of answers.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

I should really refrain from these threads, as I do hate over-analyzing old horse terms that have been around for a long time, and construing other meanings out of them (whether the way the word is used is correct for the actual definition of the term or not, it is understood a certain way in the horse world).

I consider anthropomorphizing as the following: Cat poops on carpet. Human says cat did it 'just to be spiteful'. (yes, actually happened. I explained to the woman that no animal does things just to be spiteful. The woman had a distorted view on reality in general).

Horses do test us, as in to test their boundaries and see what they can get away with. I have seen horses learn to identify when an electric fence is on or not. As far as premeditated, my horse waits until I'm out of sight or busy before she ducks under the rope to get into the hay in the aisle. But that is as far as premeditated goes, IMO. There is no great big grand scheme, but I do believe they are capable of learning when pulling a shenanigan would be to their best advantage. 

My horse does try things she never tries with me with new people. She quickly learns what she can and cannot get away with regarding each individual person.

Animals in general are capable of problem solving. Whether you consider that the scientific method or not, it is true that they are capable. The crow is an extremely intelligent creature. 
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/crows-understand-analogies/
A favorite toy to give parrots are puzzle boxes with food inside them. 

If horses did not test, as in 'try a variety of behavior or action', they would not be so trainable. Because they are intelligent enough to try to understand what we are attempting to communicate, they do 'test'. They do problem solve. They do figure out what ultimately gets them what they want, and what does not profit them.

However, I do not and will not ever believe that animals do things out of spite, vengeance, or even anger. It all comes down to basic instincts, fight or flight, and survival (the seeking of food, necessities of life, and safety). An animal doesn't bite you because it is mad at you. It has a reason, that comes from basic instinct.

No need to complicate things. They aren't terribly complex creatures. But neither are they incapable of reasoning and problem solving, and 'testing' a handler/rider to ultimately satisfy their own desire.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I agree with @Avna. The horse is testing his environment, and you are it! Prey animals must be very perceptive of their surroundings. they notice anything different, and they are always looking for something 'different'. It isn't that they are looking for a way to get at you, but they are so programmed to notice anything that is different from usual, that a minor difference might cause them to probe a bit more. Horses are very curious animals, and that means they will be probing anything that looks or feels different. If you are a more tentative rider than their usual human, they notice that, and they may push into that , exploring it a bit .


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

horseluvr2524 said:


> I should really refrain from these threads, as I do hate over-analyzing old horse terms that have been around for a long time, and construing other meanings out of them (whether the way the word is used is correct for the actual definition of the term or not, it is understood a certain way in the horse world).
> 
> I consider anthropomorphizing as the following: Cat poops on carpet. Human says cat did it 'just to be spiteful'. (yes, actually happened. I explained to the woman that no animal does things just to be spiteful. The woman had a distorted view on reality in general).
> 
> ...


I agree with your post except that animals don't do things out of anger. No, they do not plan out a revenge. But they have the emotion. Dogs certainly can build up a frustrated fury and then bite you. Not sure what the equivalent for a horse would be, but I know my horse has the emotion of "that's all I'm going take of that!"


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

They do test you, some are worse about it than others. I have a mare now that is the biggest love bug you'd ever want AS LONG AS YOU PASS HER TESTS. You flunk the first, very subtle test and the next test will be a little worse and it continues to escalate. We sold her once with the new owner (an experienced horse person) being warned of her propensity for testing. In 6 months she was calling us to see if we would buy her back because she couldn't do anything with her anymore, not even get a halter on her let alone ride her without getting dumped. Hubby went to get her and she was napping out in the field. Owner said, "Oh, you can't go get her up or she'll get mad and chase you out of the field."

Hubby says, "Really?", walks out makes her get up, puts the halter on her and loads in her the trailer. He said the woman was dumbfounded. 

Now was it just that woman? No, because it was a little habit of that mares' that I'd noticed long ago and thus why I warned her about it but Cloud took it to a whole other level than she ever did with us. She'll still try to get by with something every year or two but as long as you shut her down she's back to calm and gentle. 

Her first test is always the same, she'll brush by you barely touching, not even enough to push you. Has absolutely nothing to do with her being in any kind of pain. To pass that test just pressing one finger into her ribs will give you an A+ and have her behaving beautifully for you. She likes for your answer to be as subtle as her test. 

As far as pain issues, I've never really had a problem with not being able to recognize that something was wrong and when something is wrong they get the time they need to heal but they still have to maintain their manners when I'm doctoring or handling them.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Agree very much with @mmshiro and @horseluvr2524.

What I disagree with is thinking of horses testing and trying to see what works best for them as a negative thing or a scheming thing. We simply have to be smarter than the horse. If you take out a super fit TB that is bursting with energy after two weeks off, you're not going to be dealing with a wicked, evil horse that is trying to fling you off for fun. You are simply dealing with an animal that has so much energy it is coming out their ears. The fact that their exuberance might send you flying has nothing to do with a bad horse versus a good horse, but rather it is just a fact that you ought to think ahead and plan for. 

If you are very smart, you might consider that the horse with so much excess energy may discover that a simple snaffle is no match for his power, and you might teach him that he can run right through it. Or that the buck he is unable to contain might send you off, and he might run home and find his food waiting. Our brains can think ahead and prevent many things. But if we don't, and the horse learns these things, then we have to find new ways to teach the horse that it is more positive to do what we want instead of trying these behaviors again.

What prevents us from being neutral about our interactions with horses is our inability to imagine what their motivations might be. So we ascribe to them evil thoughts against ourselves. Yet they have motivations for everything they do, even for limping during a lesson to stop a long, boring session or running through a bit. These motivations are not personal against us. I believe that getting along well with horses means we must try to figure out what their motivations are for their behaviors, and then to create other motivations for doing what we want them to. 

There is a difference between a horse doing something we don't want them to do because of a motivation that is stronger than the one we have given them, versus them doing something because of pain. It takes detective work to find out which is which sometimes. In my experience, you can rather quickly change a horse's behavior if it is based on motivation rather than pain or physical limitation. Refractory and difficult to change behaviors usually end up being pain related OR they are being positively reinforced regularly such as cribbing, food aggression, etc.


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## Light (Mar 4, 2012)

When I first got my horse I was in way over my head. She is a Andy/TBH, was a green 18 yr old mare that had been through at least 7 different people. She is my first horse, and I knew nothing about horses. 

One particular stupid incident ( I took her for a walk) resulted in her zig sagging at a full gallop down a busy street, before stopping by a fence with barking dogs on the other side. I clipped her lead line on and did the in shock walk of shame back to the barn. Once at the barn I put her in the round pen with her and sat down in the middle of it with my head in my hands. I was extremely defeated and freaked out that she had almost been hit so many times. I tried to collect my thoughts and figure out what I was going to do. I was seriously considering some pretty heavy things. 

She came up to me and nudged me with her soft nose as if to ask if I was okay. I thought that was sweet and she continued to nudge me and I almost thought that if she were not a horse with a horse body she would be hugging me. It was very touching until she proceeded to to push my hand with her nose and try to work her way into my pocket in search of a carrot. 

Bottom line. She didn't give a mint about me one bit at all. Just wanted a carrot. The entire horrible incident was over to her. Her next move was to find food, and she could smell carrots in my pocket. 

Horses don't think like people do. They do form attachments and can suffer from a depression sort of thing when separated from their horse friends. They can shut down, and they can blow up. But I do not think they dwell on the past or worry about the future. 

When I give my horse hay, she doesn't care how much I give her. She only cares that at the moment she is eating. 

My mare "tests" me every day. Often I am not aware I am being tested and will lose.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I know little about the brain and how it works, what I do know is that animals are capable of reasoning. 

We can label it as an opportunity or chance but, an example I can give is with a pony I once had, Stanley. I would shut things up for the night. Last thing I did was to feed. Not long after I had left a neighbour would call to say the horses were out of their stables. I would go back amd out of twelve stables ten horses would be out. I thought it was children having fun. 

After the third or fourth time I left as usual. Parked the car and went back on foot hiding in the bushes. Within moments of me getting there Stanley jumped over his door and proceeded to let the other horses out, undoing the top bollt and using his foot to undo the bottom kick bolt. The first horse he let out was a slow eater, that horse walked out, Stan walked in and finished his meal. Then he let the others out checking to see if any grub was left before opening his door and returning to his stable. 

As for testing, I believe that horses will do so. I will lunge a horse and notice that at a certain point he thinks about stopping or turning away. I will correct the next time around and he stops trying it on before he has ever done something. Someone else lungeing he will try it again, if they don't notice and correct then it will go that step further and he gets away or turns in. 

He has enough brain power to reason a way to get out of work. 

I always say correcting the little things stops the major thing happening.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

LOL! OH no, animals do plan and are spiteful. My husband messed with my cat and I said, "You better quit or he'll poo on your pillow.". He didn't quit and guess what he found that night? Yep. I took Skippy in for his Coggins test to be drawn the other day and bathed him and groomed him so he'd be my beautiful stallion. He's a cremello so everything shows. He poo'd in the trailer and smooshed it on his butt cheeks...if that wasn't spiteful..........:wink::wink:

No, seriously, do they test? You bet, they're curious creatures and they like to find things out. And they learn, good or bad, from each thing they test. Are they truly spiteful? No I don't really believe that. Is it all pain related? No. When I get a reaction that could be pain or behavior, I test back. If I'm riding and the horse bucks, I'll ride through it and then get off and check saddle fit and for pain reactions along their backs. Failing pain, we go back to work. If the horse is flinchy, we quit until we figure out what the issue is. If the horse is dodgy at the mounting block, first he's got to stand and let me mount and then we'll check for pain. Exception to that is, if I put my hands on the saddle and go to put my foot in the stirrup and it's SUCH a big reaction that pain is obvious. But is it always pain? No. Sometimes it's, "I don't wanna today, tomorrow's not looking good either. Why don't you have your secretary call mine and we'll do lunch. Some Day......". At which point I become secretary, judge, jury and executioner until that little bit is over.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Woke up this morning thinking about that darned prefrontal lobe. Now since teenagers have not yet wired up their prefrontal lobe, I conclude that is proof positive that a prefrontal lobe is not necessary for testing because everyone knows that teenagers are capable of testing at the highest and most complex levels.

I do believe horses test, just not at the level of complexity that teenagers engage in.

@lightning Yep, it can be very disheartening, at first at least, when your horse comes happily to greet you, smells of your pocket, and detecting no treats turns away and goes back to grazing.


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## Caledonian (Nov 27, 2016)

I’d say they were constantly asking us questions or ‘testing us’, even when we don’t realise they’re doing it. It’s not out of malice but as a way to understand where they stand in the hierarchy of the herd. If they find a weakness in their owner, then they’ll take the lead position. It’s all about survival.

It’s when there’s a power swap that problems arise with handling and riding. A weaker member of the herd should not be making demands and when subtle warnings to ‘stop bothering me because I don’t want to work or pick-up my foot’ go unnoticed that more aggressive measures such as kicking, biting and rearing are used to put the other in their place. 

My gelding was a gentle creature but he tested me when he first arrived. He’d walk away when I went to catch him or stamp his foot when he’d had enough of grooming. It was easily stopped and he soon reverted to the gentleman that I knew him to be before I bought him. I believe he continued to test me in other ways to make sure I was still strong enough to be his leader. He wasn’t a confident horse, so he’d rely on me out on hacks to show him that the monsters in the hedges weren't a threat. Once he got to know me, a simple ‘walk on’ was all that was required. Yet when a friend rode him he spooked and ran straight to me on the far side of the field where he came to a stop. He didn’t head to his stable or gate. I think he was far less stressed not being the leader of the herd and I was able to relax with him; my mares were completely different. 

My second mare definitely tested me from morning to night. She’d got away with everything with her past owners and had learned that rearing, barging, kicking, nipping and running away meant that she avoided work, whether it was by not being caught or causing problems on a hack. It took a long time to change her attitude but she continued to test me in experimental ways every day; if I’d allowed her to go too far down the ‘what happens if’ road, then we’d have been back at square one and I’d have been hurt.


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## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

Jax tests everyone thats under the age of 10. With kids, hes a saint. Anyone that gets on him though he tries to rush...randomly change directions...hes just a total aa*hat. They never want to ride him again! Then they see me riding him and are like HES SO GOOD! Thats what made them want to try him in the first place lol! But if you push through it and he learns it doesn't work with you then hes back to his normal compliant self.

My mare? Shes the same no matter what, no testing...nothing.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

The purpose of a test is to see what you know about a subject.

In that capacity, horses do test. Who makes a better leader? The person who flunked the exam or the one who aced it?


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

Heck, we will never understand the human brain, and we all speak a common language. How can we ever understand how any animal mind works? It is kind of preposterous to think we will ever understand the mysteries of the mind.

As for animals not being spiteful? That is a laugh.

Our wonderful family dog growing up was something else; and all dogs since that I have had the pleasure of having in my life, have had to live up to him.

He was a house dog went every where with us, including vacations. Well, one year (1977) mom decided our vacation was going to be a week at a dude ranch in Colorado, sans the dog. We were gone eight or nine days and had hired three of our friends to walk and feed the dog four times a day. He was a chain link fence climber so he couldn't be kept in the yard.

We pull into the driveway in the heat of August in Texas, when all the friends and their parents we hired came running to tell us that the dog never pooped while being walked.

We opened the door to a smell that hit you like a sledge hammer. That wonderful, brilliant, beautiful dog had left eight or nine days of poop in my mom's bedroom ...all around her bed. No where else did he poop. We just stood there staring at his monuments of spite. My mom turned to the dog, who was standing in the doorway, and started to scold him. He barked forceful three times at her, turned, flounced his tail and calmly walked off.

I understand that sometimes a dog can have an upset tummy, and accidents happen in the house. The few times in all the years we had him, if he had an accident in the house, he would go to the addition off the kitchen that had tile. 

He knew what he was doing, and he knew who was the head of the household, and he knew who made the decision of leaving him behind. That was a big spiteful middle finger to mom.

Oh, and she had white shag carperting too. We kids spent hours trying to get that mess cleaned up.

He was a brilliant dog....lololol.....ah, the memories!


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## PaintHorseMares (Apr 19, 2008)

sarahfromsc said:


> Heck, we will never understand the human brain, and we all speak a common language. How can we ever understand how any animal mind works? It is kind of preposterous to think we will ever understand the mysteries of the mind.


I agree with this. We constantly warn of the danger of anthropomorphizing, however, we try to describe and understand animal behavior based on our own perception of life and the world. Although some behaviors relating to the "creature comforts", e.g. food, safety, etc., seem obvious to us, there is no doubt in my mind that we'll never know for sure about the more complex thought processes.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Now that is what I call revenge!

To say that horses do not seek revenge is generally true. 

On steeplechaser I had in for breaking was a bit quirky and resentful. I got on fine with him but did find out that he hated anyone spitting near him. 

He went off into race training and did very well. The farmer who bred him came over to the UK and asked if he could see the horse. The trainer agreed and the man arrived one afternoon. I was asked to pull the horse out which I did. I took his rugs off and had him in a halter. He looked really well amd was due to run in a big race later that week. 
Trainer and breeder walked towards him, horse pricked his ears and then laid them back making a face, the trainer gave him a carrot which he readily took. The breeder went to do the same, horse totally ignored carrot and lunged forward biting the man hard on the shoulder - breaking the skin through a thick jacket, sweater and shirt. 

That horse had been with the trainer for around four years, many people, including those with an Irish accent had handled and ridden him. I have no doubt that the breeder had mishandled him whether the horse was getting in first or just getting revenge I don't know but he certainly hadn't forgotten.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

sarahfromsc said:


> Heck, we will never understand the human brain, and we all speak a common language. How can we ever understand how any animal mind works? It is kind of preposterous to think we will ever understand the mysteries of the mind.
> 
> As for animals not being spiteful? That is a laugh.
> 
> ...


In this case, I doubt very much he was pooping there out of spite. There are many reasons he could have done this. He could have done it out of need to begin with, because he was no longer on his accustomed schedule, and then simply continued, because dogs prefer to eliminate in the place they eliminated before. They are creatures of habit. There was no one to stop him or tell him different. Dogs certainly act out of frustration, boredom, and fear, but not spite. That requires planning, insight into human emotions, and foresight -- this dog would have to know that 1. people hate dog poop. 2. his family was coming back. 3. they felt guilty for leaving him 4. they would understand that he was soiling the bedroom because he was angry for being left. 5. they would feel so ashamed of leaving him they wouldn't punish him, and would never leave him again. This is way too much for the smartest possible dog. 

I have heard SO many stories of the spiteful things animals did to humans, and never once have I heard one that could not be explained much more plausibly if one had knowledge of how that species thought. 

Cats are about the worst for this. My guess is that because cats are essentially an asocial species, they often do things that don't make logical social sense. People project the wildest motivations for cats, which as a species is fairly dimwitted, with a lot of hard-wired behaviors that only make sense in the wild. I well remember when I got my first (and last -- she lived to be 20) cat as an adult, and as I always do, got a lot of books out of the library on the new species and how to care for it etc. Was I surprised as how little hard information was in those books, and how much gooey nonsense. Mostly they were just pictures of cats.


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## NavigatorsMom (Jan 9, 2012)

I would have to say I do think horses can test people. Everyone I've put on Nav who is either a non-rider or an inexperienced rider, he will pull his head and the reins down and plod along on the forehand, and he'll be lazy about transitions. I do think he's testing to see if they'll make him use some effort. I tell those riders to use leg to get him going and it typically works, but for someone like my boyfriend who doesn't ride at all and can be nervous about horses, I don't mind Nav being more on the lazy side for him. For myself and other more experienced riders he is very responsive and doesn't plod or lean (much), just those that he feels he can get away with it with. I've also ridden horses who could tell if you weren't paying attention and would either trot you out of the arena or spin around and start to take you home from trails. If you knew the horse and were ready and able to stop them, they wouldn't try it again, but if they were able to do it once, they'd try more.

I mostly agree that animals aren't spiteful/vengeful. They can retaliate in the moment to things that make them upset, but I don't think they plan out things to get revenge on people or other animals. Like others have said, I especially see this with cats. Cats are so often thought of as unsocial and aggressive (always makes me a bit upset when people say they hate cats because they're mean, you just have to know how to treat them, mine are very affectionate, sweet and social), or intentionally tricking people (ex: "the cat rolled over and showed it's belly for pets, but when I petted it she attacked! She tricked me!" no, you just applied dog body language to a completely different animal).


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

We all like to believe that humans are the only ones that can think logically and with reason but other animals can do the same, the apes for one and thinking logically for a crow is the norm. They can solve puzzles faster than most.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

In cases like this, I like to share the story of my old gelding, Dakota. He was an Arab/NSH who had been sent to my friend for retraining because his owners couldn't handle him. 

First, they started him as a 2yo over 2' fences. Wish I was exaggerating. When he started to refuse fences because of arthritic changes in his hocks, they turned him into a western pleasure horse. Trouble was, they didn't make sure to put a saddle on him that fit, so he started acting out. Their "trainer" told them to put him in a twisted wire snaffle (keep in mind that he didn't neck rein). That was met with even more disapproval by Dakota, so the "trainer" said to put him in a tie-down and crank his head to his chest ("That'll teach him to throw his head!"). Of course, he started acting out when they would pull him out of his stall because he didn't like the way they were handling him. This led the owners to say "Oh, he doesn't want to work today, so we'll just out him away." Didn't take him long to figure out that being a jerk meant he didn't have to work. Jackpot. 

Enter me. I was extremely new to horses. My experience consisted of one guided trail ride, a handful of rides on my grandma's neighbor's mare over the course of a summer, and a couple of rides on my friend's Peruvian paso gelding. I was timid and "didn't want to hurt the horsey." Dakota saw me coming a mile away. I never let him out of work because of his antics, but I would avoid doing things he didn't want to do (which were things he refused to do). My friend kept telling me that I needed to get tough with him, but I was hesitant. I seriously thought I would hurt him.

Then came the day of our first CTJM. I was leading him to the tie rack from his stall and it was a bit windy. He was prancing around, but I ignored him. All of a sudden, a leaf blew gently across our path and Dakota lost it. He literally tried to climb up my shoulder. I didn't think, I reacted (much like a horse would). I spun around and chased him backward the sixty-plus feet to the end of the aisle between the stalls. We stood there for a second, then turned and continued back the way we had been going. From that day on, he didn't try to get out of things he didn't want to do nearly as much, and if he did, it was easily quashed with a quick correction. By the time he went back to his owners, he was a completely different horse...with me. He would still test new adults.

Another example is my best friend's mare. She is a biter. My best friend makes excuses for her biting that she's nervous and just needs something to occupy her. She will bite, then fling her head out of the way instantly if you try to smack her. One evening, I had her haltered and we were waiting for my best friend to put away her gelding so I could put the mare away and they could eat dinner. The mare got impatient and bit the back of my arm. Again, there was no thought, just reaction. I chased her backward the forty feet to the far corner of the arena. Stood there for a second making myself big and intimidating, then turned around and led her back like nothing had happened. She will still act like she is going to bite me (because everyone else lets her get away with it), but all I have to do is put one finger up and say "Ah!" and she stops. 

My point being, you can't tell me that the horses in those two examples weren't testing me to see if they could get away with the same bad behaviors that they had gotten away with with other people. When it didn't work with me, they modified their behavior accordingly. They both continued to try the same pattern of testing with new/other people, even after losing that battle (so to speak) with me.


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

Didn't read everything, but got to the concept of revenge. I do believe horses experience anger, and have witnessed personally a horse get her revenge. Topless was the most intriguing horse I've ever had. She was my fathers horse and his alone. 

She came from a very hard situation, being taunted by children with sticks through her front flap feeder in a straight stall, being hit in the head with a shovel when she was frustrated, hog tied and beat with stock whips to "teach her a lesson" (swear to god) but when questioned no one really knew what lesson she was being taught. 

When my father brought her home she was absolutely volatile. Head shy enough to flip on her back if you flicked your ponytail with no warning. But she picked my father. She would do absolutely anything for him. He could rub her ears, lay her down and sit on her, something that no one EVER thought anyone would be able to do again. She felt safe with him. 

Fast forward a few years when she settled down. She was always a horse you couldn't correct too harshly. You had to ask her, not demand. She would think about it, and let you know if she complied. She was a horse who was her own leader and that was the way she was. If you made sense, she would comply, if not, you better get out of her way. 

One day, a horsey friend of my father came over and was warned not to walk to close to him or she would run you down. He guffawed and laughed it off. 

So off they went walking in the pasture. Lo and behold Topless came over and shoved him out of the way, parking herself between him and my father. He reacted very strongly, as he realistically should have (a horse is testing you) but Topless was different than your general animal. He kicked her in the belly, which may have been a bit much, but she went away. 

I watched with my own eyes that horse follow them around, ears pinned at that man. She Waite about twenty minutes like that, parked in front of him, and double barrelled him in the gut. When he fell she went and parked between the two men, and laid her ears back at him. If that wasn't revenge I don't know what is. Even lately, if I asked her to do something it was not a demand or a "tell" like the others. I did have to ask. We butted heads a few times, literally- she put her forehead to mine and stared me in the eyes while she thought about my request to get out of the barn while I shovelled. She thought it over, decided she could live with that and waited outside the door until I was done.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

Avna said:


> In this case, I doubt very much he was pooping there out of spite. There are many reasons he could have done this. He could have done it out of need to begin with, because he was no longer on his accustomed schedule, and then simply continued, because dogs prefer to eliminate in the place they eliminated before. They are creatures of habit. There was no one to stop him or tell him different. Dogs certainly act out of frustration, boredom, and fear, but not spite. That requires planning, insight into human emotions, and foresight -- this dog would have to know that 1. people hate dog poop. 2. his family was coming back. 3. they felt guilty for leaving him 4. they would understand that he was soiling the bedroom because he was angry for being left. 5. they would feel so ashamed of leaving him they wouldn't punish him, and would never leave him again. This is way too much for the smartest possible dog.
> 
> I have heard SO many stories of the spiteful things animals did to humans, and never once have I heard one that could not be explained much more plausibly if one had knowledge of how that species thought.
> 
> Cats are about the worst for this. My guess is that because cats are essentially an asocial species, they often do things that don't make logical social sense. People project the wildest motivations for cats, which as a species is fairly dimwitted, with a lot of hard-wired behaviors that only make sense in the wild. I well remember when I got my first (and last -- she lived to be 20) cat as an adult, and as I always do, got a lot of books out of the library on the new species and how to care for it etc. Was I surprised as how little hard information was in those books, and how much gooey nonsense. Mostly they were just pictures of cats.


A. Smart Dog never pooped in the house unless he was not feeling good and we weren't ther to take him out.
B. If Smart Dog needed to poop it was in the attached maids quarters. No carpet, just tile.
C. Smart Dog went on vacations with us for 12 years. Usually the beach where dogs were allowed at that point in time on the beach.
D. Mom did yell at Smart Dog, he yelled back and flounced calmly out of the room.
E. Smart Dog didn't greet us at the door, let alone smile at us. He was waiting by her room to show us his true feelings on the whole matter.
F. Smart Dog had feelings.
G. Smart Dog knew we begged mom to take him along. Hence why he left our rooms alone....lololol

Why did he not use the formal dining room, the formal living room, the den, the kitchen, the two other bedrooms?

As for animals not sensing human emotions, I will have to disagree. I thought the whole idea behind therapeutic/ service animals was the ability to sense us humans; whether it is a diabetic who has a service animal that senses a drop or rise in sugar, or an animal who is used in hospitals and nursing homes. They sense us better than we do them. If they can sense death and other medical issues, who am I to say, with my puny human mind, that they can not sense our emotions?

Animals are simply a lot smarter than we give them credit for. And with intelligence there is a certain amount of logic, and with that logic, there is a certain amount of, "what can I get away with today?"


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Twice a week I use to have a group of 'problematic' young teen boys come to have lessons with the horses. 

One day a lad was brushing off a pony. He was doing fine but Rocky suddenly swished his tail hard to get a horse fly off and swished the lad around the face. The lad reacted by kicking the pony in the belly. 
I hollered at him amd he jumped back standing near the pony's head whilst I read him the riot act. 

Rocky looked at me amd then looked down at the boy's foot and back at me. I said nothing but waited. That pony deliberately trod on his food placing all his weight on it as the lad hollered. 

I just laughed and told the boy that he was lucky he had only had his foot trodden on and not been kicked or bitten. 

That was no coincidence but a deliberate action from the pony.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> My point being, you can't tell me that the horses in those two examples weren't testing me to see if they could get away with the same bad behaviors that they had gotten away with with other people. When it didn't work with me, they modified their behavior accordingly.


The only part where I disagree is that the horses were trying to get away with bad behaviors. I don't believe the horses think of the behavior as "bad," anymore than I think the dog that pooped near the bed thought of the behavior as "bad." Just because you don't like what they do, doesn't mean they think it is bad. They just learn whether the consequences are better for them if they do the behavior or don't.

It is humorous to think of the dog deciding to mess where it was the most disgusting for the humans, but most likely it had to do with missing the owner and wanting to be near the area of the strongest smell/reminder of the owner when the first accident happened. And once a dog has eliminated in a place, they begin to accept that this is an acceptable place to use as a bathroom, whether the owner agrees or not. Why the dog did not seem ashamed of the behavior could be for various reasons. He was too happy to see his owner to mind, he was unable to associate his behavior with past behaviors he was punished for. Some dogs seem to believe it is wrong to poop in the house when the owner is present, but not when they are gone. 

So is it "revenge?" In my opinion, horses don't take revenge but rather take self-protective and self-advancement measures. If a horse kicks another horse or runs them around a field, the one that was kicked doesn't wait and take revenge on the other. Yet if the opportunity presents where the horse that was aggressive is at a disadvantage, the weaker horse may decide this is the moment to make a move. With humans, those moments come more easily. If we've been overly aggressive, the horse may see us as someone to jostle for position with. So when that person shows up and is in a position of weakness such as bending over, the horse may remember that there was a power play before, and decide to bite, kick, or employ other horse maneuvers to stay on top. 

That's one reason why I think it's better to not use the same tactics that horses do but instead to use ones that horses don't understand as well. Otherwise you might find yourself in a kicking or biting match. 

I agree that animals are far smarter than we give them credit for and that we'll never understand brains completely. However, I believe animals are far more honest about life than humans and don't have the same concept of right, wrong, good and evil that we do. I don't think they regret actions but live much more in the moment and for simple comfort and pleasures. Those they get in any way they can, using their smart little brains. We try to teach them which things we don't like.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> My point being, you can't tell me that the horses in those two examples weren't testing me to see if they could get away with the same bad behaviors that they had gotten away with with other people.


Oh yes I can - watch me!

Their behavior had nothing to do with *you*. They gave you a response that was successful for them in the past. You give yourself too much credit if you believe that the thought process went something like this: "Seems like she thinks pretty highly of herself as a horsewoman. Well, we'll see what she'll do about this!"

Do you really believe the horses planned to throw you a curve ball to "test" you?? If you were being tested, the behavior would be specific to you. It's not. They simply did, again, what worked well for them in the past - a rather rational approach, if you ask me.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

mmshiro said:


> Oh yes I can - watch me!
> 
> Their behavior had nothing to do with *you*. They gave you a response that was successful for them in the past. You give yourself too much credit if you believe that the thought process went something like this: "Seems like she thinks pretty highly of herself as a horsewoman. Well, we'll see what she'll do about this!"
> 
> Do you really believe the horses planned to throw you a curve ball to "test" you?? If you were being tested, the behavior would be specific to you. It's not. They simply did, again, what worked well for them in the past - a rather rational approach, if you ask me.


Wow. No need to get personal.

I never said their thought process was directed solely at me. I did say that they continued to test other people in the same manner, however the testing of me specifically stopped because I responded to the testing with the "correct" answer. Doesn't mean that other people couldn't achieve the same results. I'm not saying that I am some all-powerful horsewoman. I was merely relaying my personal experiences with horses I've worked with. Sorry if that wasn't conveyed in a way you could understand.

Another example is PaleFace, a mare we had at the Girl Scout horse camp I worked at. She was not the sharpest tool in the shed. We used her to lead trail rides and that was it. She always pulled the same "tests" with everyone who handled her. The first time you tried to saddle her, she would flip out and sit back at the sight of the saddle pad. If you ignored her or gave her a slap and a "Quit!", she would immediately stop and stand quietly like nothing had happened. If you freaked out with her that first time, she would do it every time that person went to saddle her after that. To me (and to the majority of horse people I ), that is testing you. I honestly don't know what else you would call it.

As for the comment about horses not recognizing behaviors as "bad"...I have mixed feelings about that. When Dakota would stand tied quietly, nonchalantly pick up the end of his lead rope, start chewing on it, then casually start to untie himself, all while staring right at you, it makes it difficult to believe that he didn't know he wasn't supposed to be doing that. Or when I could move his shoulder, barrel, or hip with a bare poke of the finger, yet he deliberately took a step toward me, landing squarely on my foot, while I was scraping dried mud off him, then refusing to move, even when I leaned all my weight against his shoulder...it seemed very much spiteful. :shrug:


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

Foxhunter said:


> Twice a week I use to have a group of 'problematic' young teen boys come to have lessons with the horses.
> 
> One day a lad was brushing off a pony. He was doing fine but Rocky suddenly swished his tail hard to get a horse fly off and swished the lad around the face. The lad reacted by kicking the pony in the belly.
> I hollered at him amd he jumped back standing near the pony's head whilst I read him the riot act.
> ...


My sister had a mare that would do the same thing. Then to make sure she made her point she would twist that hoof so it was grinding on your foot.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

mmshiro said:


> Oh yes I can - watch me!
> 
> Their behavior had nothing to do with *you*. They gave you a response that was successful for them in the past. You give yourself too much credit if you believe that the thought process went something like this: "Seems like she thinks pretty highly of herself as a horsewoman. Well, we'll see what she'll do about this!"
> 
> Do you really believe the horses planned to throw you a curve ball to "test" you?? If you were being tested, the behavior would be specific to you. It's not. They simply did, again, what worked well for them in the past - a rather rational approach, if you ask me.


I don't think that you are totally correct here, I have had horses that I bred and handled all their lives. They know 'manners' very well. I could lead them anywhere with a piece of string yet someone else would have problems with them crowding or pulling, something they had never been allowed to do. 

You are not giving animals the credit for being able to think for themselves. 

Horses have a place in the herd, they will test their position every now and then, they will do it with humans. 

Shiro, please refrain from being snippy in your replies.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

This for me is an interesting subject. The more I have thought about it the morse incidences I can think of where horses have behaved in a thoughtful manner. 

The youngsters all came into a loose barn at night. Along one side was a hay manger built from railway sleepers slotted into RSJs sunk into the ground. One evening a filly was messing around playing and slipped and fell upside down into the manger. The only way for her to get out was for me to remove the sleepers so she could get onto her side and get up. 

The filly was in a panic thrashing around. Lifting the sleeper on my own was no easy task as they needed to be lifted evenly to get the out of the RSJs. The filly would lie still and then thrash. I had removed the top two but was in danger of being hurt from a flailing hoof. 

I decided to hog tie her when my old mare, in with the youngsters, walked to the filly's head and stood there with her head near the filly's.

The filly stopped struggling and just lay still. I was able to lift the sleepers out and only when the last was removed did she flop over and get up, totally unharmed apart from a couple of minor scrapes. 

The moment I removed the last sleeper, the mare moved back. 

Was it purely a coincidence that the mare decided to stand by the fillys head or, did she realise that I was in danger? 

Personally I think it was the former.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

mmshiro said:


> Oh yes I can - watch me!
> 
> Their behavior had nothing to do with *you*. They gave you a response that was successful for them in the past. You give yourself too much credit if you believe that the thought process went something like this: "Seems like she thinks pretty highly of herself as a horsewoman. Well, we'll see what she'll do about this!"
> 
> Do you really believe the horses planned to throw you a curve ball to "test" you?? If you were being tested, the behavior would be specific to you. It's not. They simply did, again, what worked well for them in the past - a rather rational approach, if you ask me.


Also, I would just like to point out that had you really read my post, you would have noticed that nowhere did I laud myself as a horsewoman. In fact, quite the opposite. I clearly explained that I was inexperienced and timid. Quite frankly, I find your response to me unnecessarily rude.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Just last evening, we had Oliver and Cowboy up at the paddock near the house. My husband had the hose filling the trough and I thought that maybe the horses would like a little bit of a spray down since it was over 100 again yesterday. 

I walked up to Oliver who had his head poked through the fence eating the green grass on the other side (grass is always greener…), asked him to back up and then by putting my hand gently under his jaw asked him to follow me over to where my husband had the hose. He did without a hesitation.

My husband commented that there was no way Oliver would have left the green grass and followed him like that. He feeds them more often than I do as of late. 

There is more going on there than just “follow me, and I’ll give you food” or a rub down or some other pleasurable experience. And, since I have never hit that horse with the end of a lead rope, my hand, reins, a whip, or anything else, avoiding physical punishment isn't exactly a motive either. (To clarify, that is not to say I wouldn't if it was necessary, in our case it hasn't been)

Quite frankly, he’d have every reason to run the other direction when he saw me coming as I’ve been very busy lately and about all I have been doing with him is riding (not as often as usual) and giving disgusting tasting medicine to him.

Somewhere up in that brain of theirs, they differentiate between people and choose what and how easily they will do, for whom. You have to earn the privilege of their choice. 

Now, had my husband gotten a lead rope or a piece of bailing string and thrown it over Oliver’s neck and then asked him to follow, he would have without a problem. That is the result of training. 

I didn’t need the lead, I just needed to ask. He was completely free to refuse and make me go get the lead but, chose not to. 

Maybe that is a developed trust, an acceptance of my leadership or….? Call it whatever you would like, however, horses do choose to test or make things difficult for some people and not others.


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## Caledonian (Nov 27, 2016)

JCnGrace said:


> My sister had a mare that would do the same thing. Then to make sure she made her point she would twist that hoof so it was grinding on your foot.


 I remember a school pony named Blue who was very good at that. If anyone gave him an overenthusiastic kick in the ribs, on the next circuit of the school he’d rub along the wooden kick boards, bruising their lower leg and knee. He’d done it enough times that we all knew what he’d do if provoked, so riders were always warned. I remember one of the instructors leading him past me muttering ‘you little so ‘n’ so, you did that on purpose’.


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## Tazzie (Nov 8, 2011)

I absolutely think they can test us, and evaluate who is on board or handling them.

When my husband rides my mare, he points and she goes. There is no tricks, no real tests, just goes. He's super green, and she knows that. But they have a trusting relationship, and she would do just about anything with him aboard. Including straight into water the first time anyone other than me asked.

When my kids are aboard, she takes the smallest, most careful steps she absolutely can. NO ONE believed me when I told her how young she was for Kaleb's first lead line class (three; she was three and it was a fun costume class) or every year since because she acts like an old school horse, practically yawning as she goes around the ring. Even entirely kept her cool with my daughter on board earlier this year when it started POURING on a metal roof and all the other horses flipped out.

When I get on board, I have a fine tuned Dressage horse listening for EVERY aid I'm about to ask. She sees what she can get away with, but I redirect and insist. As we hit the show ring, it feels like she grows underneath me, and gets larger the more people cheer. She's not afraid, she is ALL show horse.

The first time my trainer rode her was the first time I have EVER seen a horse sneer. She KNEW my trainer knew more than I did, and was going to get her working in a new way. And she was MAD! WHY would she want a professional telling her what to do when the amateur didn't make her work so hard?! She pulled ALL the tricks. Tried to rear, bucked, everything. When nothing worked, she went to work and became the horse I've trained her to be.

Then the incident with my friend. I'd warned her to NOT use a martingale on her. I didn't believe in them, and I did not know how my mare would react. She admitted after she tried it. It did NOT go well. MULTIPLE witnesses said that mare hit the end of her reins and KNEW my friend had a gadget on her. Izzie glared hard, and had an absolute come apart over it. I was never told whether my friend stayed on or not. Izzie has never been one to be ok with things she feels are unfair. My friend has ridden her since, and Izzie REFUSES to give her an easy ride.

She's a tough mare. She's wickedly smart and she'll use it either for or against you. She knows when the electric fence is knocked out, and happily slips through it to get the grass on the other side (leaving her herd mates in the field).

I'm sure if I sat around and thought of the horses growing up I'd have more stories, but I'm far too tired for that tonight. Just about Izzie and what she's done.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I know that when I rode my lease horse initially, he would test me with baulking, he'd end up going my way, and things would settle so that he stopped testing me at all; did not even try to baulk. Then, on a ride where his prior rider had been with his owner, (who rode only once a week or so), to whom he had had more success with baulking/testing, he would test me again. And lose. It has worked the last time, which renewed his hope that it might work again. 

Sorry Charlie.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Sorry admit I have not read all the responses, as I just got back from three days in the mountains, with the hroses, so will just respond to the original question
Testing, is first of all, NEVER pain related, as any misbehavior has a genuine cause-PAIN!
Far as testing, perhaps not in the true sense of the word'\ test', so as in many other discussions here, you have to take application of the word , 'test' as applying to it's connotation in horsemanship, and not narrow dictionary definition
Being a prey species, horses are very very good at reading slight body language, plus learn through repetition, and reward, whether that reward is intended or not
Being a herd species, they also are very good at sensing when leadership is lacking, and if you don't lead, they will
This ability of a horse to read when a rider is confident, when that person creates clear , fair and consistent boundaries, and when there are grey areas, can be viewed in simple terms as 'testing', as a horse will respond accordingly,and many learn that all humans are not equal, that indeed they can even be rewarded unintentionally, for actions they know better then to try with a human who has their true trust and respect.
Are they testing? Not really in the sense that they are going to give you a passing or failing mark, but they are going to read by how you handle or ride them, if you are a worthy leader,and act accordingly, or if you are an inconsistant leader, where one day you allow them to decide how far to ride, and another day, try to make that decision yourself.The horse will then need to 'ask;, who decides when we ride home today, through not verbal communication, but by seeing if that day is the one where he gets to decide/. 
For the sake of simplicity, it can be said that the horse is 'testing the rider, but is really testing boundaries that are not black and white


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Tazzie said:


> I absolutely think they can test us, and evaluate who is on board or handling them.
> 
> When my husband rides my mare, he points and she goes. There is no tricks, no real tests, just goes. He's super green, and she knows that. But they have a trusting relationship, and she would do just about anything with him aboard. Including straight into water the first time anyone other than me asked.
> 
> ...


I have noticed similar things with Aires. Depending on who is in the saddle, you have a different horse. My best friend (who has been riding more than half her life) gets on him and he's ornery. His whole attitude is "Make me." It turns into a (rather entertaining) wrestling match. Then I can get in the saddle and ask him to do the same things...and he's willing and compliant. All it takes is a light touch on the reins or with leg and he does as he is directed. We put my son on him, who has only ever been ponied on dead broke horses, and Aires tried his best to understand what was being asked of him, even though my son was (through no real fault of his own) giving mixed/confusing signals.


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## horseylover1_1 (Feb 13, 2008)

I didn't read all of the replies, I'm coming into this discussion a bit late. 

Horses are all different. I've met some that will do what you ask them to do without ever questioning you because they are genuinely complacent and want to do the right thing, truly want to please. On the other side of the coin I have worked with horses that will test you each and every day and I swear when I turn my back they are in their own horsey ways giving me the finger. 

Most horses I have worked with are somewhere in the middle. Overall compliant, but will try to grab a bite of grass when they think you are not paying attention (just as an example) or will try subtle little things to get out of work. 

So yes horses definitely test people in my opinion.


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

Adding in my vote. Horses do test people. I don't think they have ulterior motives but I do believe that horses are always looking for a leader and if someone is passive the horse will "become" the leader. I tend to like forward and thinking horses and find that they tend to be the "leaders" so it can become a game of who is smarter -

and I have also seen passive horses ridden by passive riders who become basket cases because no one is the leader - so the horse spooks and bucks and bolts etc.

Do horses "test" yes- but I believe the test is more of are you "fit" to be the leader


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I'm not sure if testing is the right word
Horses have to be able to 'think' to survive, even if they are rules a lot by primitive fear/flight instinct they still have to use some thought processes which is what makes them trainable. There's plenty of evidence of horses who figure out how to open their doors and when an electric fence is on


It's the testing bit I'm not convinced of. 
I think that breaks down into more than that
Horses that are anxious by nature might not show it so much with a rider they know well and have maybe always been ridden and handled by that one person but paired with a new and maybe nervous rider they can't cope and what appears to be bad behavior is the horse having a sort of panic attack. Its a trust issue


We had a mare that was 100% and slightly boring with confident riders but would have a meltdown if a nervous person got on her. I don't know how she knew they were nervous as some that tried her weren't in any way novice riders


The other thing is more about the horse's training and temperament - some need cues that are always precise and clear and if they don't get them they either try to interpret what the rider wants them to do or they refuse to do anything. It comes over as bad behavior but its really all down to rider error


Then there's the 'everything you do with a horse is training' scenario.
If a rider at any time allows a horse to do something wrong and especially if its a repetitive thing then its been trained to believe that its doing something that's OK and just as good training is retained so is bad training and things will resurface especially when a horse has a new rider, particularly if the new rider is a bit of a passenger.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Horses are more capable of thinking than we usually think. 

One horse I had was a beggar to do many things with and leading him about meant a chain over his nose yet a friend's son, aged about four, once took his rope and lead him in to the stables. That horse kept the length of the rope away from the boy and slowed hos normal fast walk down to a crawl. When the lad stopped and walked back the horse just kept walking backwards keeping the ropes length away. 

He also did the same with a woman who needed two sticks to walk. Anyone bigger and able bodied he would try it on.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

I am writing this under the supposition pain or physical issues have been addressed and the rider still feels 'tested'.

I say if you feel in your gut a horse is testing you, your gut is right. Don't ignore intuition, ever. Its there for a reason.

I think they absolutely DO test people. They test one another almost daily in a 'herd' environment - leadership can change in an instant because they are constantly testing one another.

I also think they DO have extraordinary situational awareness... probably not in terms like humans think, but they have an instinct to be aware and to avoid falling victim to a predator. 

Are some brighter than others? Are some 'smarter' at some things than others? Absolutely.

Can they manipulate us? Yep.

It doesn't take a huge brain or advanced, abstract thinking to accomplish it. Dogs can manipulate/test us - My schnauzer does the pee pee dance by the front door, and when I get up to let her out, she heads RIGHT for the fridge and looks longingly at the cheese drawer... It stands to reason a horse can figure out how to 'work' someone in a similar fashion.

Will they buck a little just to see if it scares you into not riding them? Yep.

Are some horses 'problem solvers' whereas others just don't care? Yep... I have a problem solver right now, and she is the one that knows how to untie ALL TEH THINGS that are tied up, including her friends... She's the gate crasher, the lock picker, the Liberator! She's also a PITA... we love her but we have to be one or sometimes two steps ahead of her.

I think... its a dangerous assertion to say horses can't think far enough ahead to test humans. Its not anthropomorphizing them. What it is is not underestimating them. Their thought process may not be our own, but likewise, they aren't mindless cattle, bred to be dumb. We've bred them to be intelligent, we've bred them to have a close association with us, we teach them, we learn from them, it stands to reason they've learned OUR nature as much as we've learned theirs.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Foxhunter said:


> Horses are more capable of thinking than we usually think.
> 
> One horse I had was a beggar to do many things with and leading him about meant a chain over his nose yet a friend's son, aged about four, once took his rope and lead him in to the stables. That horse kept the length of the rope away from the boy and slowed hos normal fast walk down to a crawl. When the lad stopped and walked back the horse just kept walking backwards keeping the ropes length away.
> 
> He also did the same with a woman who needed two sticks to walk. Anyone bigger and able bodied he would try it on.


Our neighbor, when my children were young (4 and 8) had a lovely bay QH, a retired roping horse. Ken had owned Bandit since he was 5 - he was 31 at the time and didn't look a day over 15. Ken was nearly 70 or maybe just past it. Bandit was supremely well cared for, and he and Ken were... IDK. Its hard to explain the bond, but it makes me verklempt to remember them (past tense)...

Bandit... LOL Ken would saddle him up, my girl, then 8, was already horse crazy... and despite my misgivings, Ken would hoist her into the saddle and just... leave her with Bandit. Bandit would plod up and down the long drive way... back and forth... as long as it took for her to get tired of riding him...

She would HIYA! GIDDYAP! GO! *kick and flail and holler* Bandit would just plod along.

She told Ken, with great concern: I think your horse is broken. He won't go any faster.

Ken chuckled, and he was nearly 70? then... and said: Let me try him out, you may be right.

Ken and Bandit tore past our house at a full gallop... they looked half their age.

I found old pictures last night - my son sprawled out, 4 years old, all over Bandit's bare back, my daughter leading him. He would look for children and be so mindful around them, but adults? He expected adulting from us.

And to swerve off into do they feel affection for people? Yes, but not in the same fashion we do, not for the same reasons, and in a much more fluid sense... but.

Bandit was 33 or 34 when he died.

Ken had had a heart attack two weeks prior and left this world that night. Bandit began to miss him within a few days - he realized his person wasn't coming home. It was heartbreaking. Then he went in his barn, laid down, and died two weeks later.

Yes, he was terribly old for a horse and correlation does not equal causation, but if ever a horse did grieve, it was Bandit. :gallop:


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

As I already said, I don't consider reactions to pain, as testing.

There is a reason statements like, 'you train a horse each and every time you handle or ride him, for the good or the negative". have fundamentals truths

"horses are creatures of habit'.
'Horses are only as good as you expect them to be'

Thus horses don't sit and reason,'now, if I can just intimidate that rider, by spooking or bucking', maybe he will not ask me to ride away from my buddies'.

Nope, they make that association both by an initial , true cause, as in a true fear spook' or buck, and then if that ride just does not ride through that spook, go on as if nothing happened, shut that bucking horse down, or boot him ahead, the horse simply learns some negative association or reward,. If he is put away, not asked to continue on, does not take a smart horse long, to associate getting his way with that action, and that can also transfer to knowing which different people that works on, and on those it does not, simply through experience.
Not being ridden with consistency. then a horse has to'test', as to which rider he can disobey cues with
That is why I am very particular as to who rides any of my horses.
It is why a person gets a horse back from a trainer, with that horse riding fine for awhile, before things go to' hell in a hand basket'at times. The owner let things slip that the trainer never did, so the hrose learns to eventually take that proverbial mile


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Smilie I fully agree with you that in general that if a horse gets away with something once they will continue to do this. 

I bought a beautiful 13.2 show pony dirt cheap because he bucked. The toe rag had learned that if he bucked as soon as he cantered he dropped his rider. I don't know how many times he put my niece on the ground. One day he did it on the road when she cantered a stride to catch up. 
That was it for me, I was all for my niece sorting it out but she wasn't with me long enough. I got on that pony and booted him straight into a canter - on the road. I really didn't care. He tried to bush but I was way to heavy for him amd my hands were up by me ears to keep his head up. 
I cantered him for a good mile up a very steep hill and every time he tried to come back to a trot I booted and whacked him 

At the top of the hill he was gasping for breath, I let him recover some amd then turned and cantered him back down the hill - he never offered to buck once. Back at the stables at the bottom of the steepest part of the hill, my niece got back on, she had seen how I rode him and did exactly the same, he went back up the hill without bucking once. We went into a field and cantered along there and he didn't raise a buck. 

Back at the stables that pony was tired out. His head was down, he was sore and sorry for himself. He was bathed off and put away. That afternoon we took him out again, he thought about bucking but my niece booted and cussed him and he behaved. 

He had spent four years doing this, there was no pain or tack issue, it was a learned behaviour. When he learned that it got him really hard work, he stopped. I sold him a year later for a great deal of money. Loved it!


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

Yes. They can definitely test us. It's not always pain related, sometimes it is. Some days they just want to test.  LOL they all have different personalities, and I feel like esp if they're younger they can test too. My friend's 5yr old horse tests her sometimes, sometimes he is just being a little stinkbutt. :lol: They know how to push buttons. I call him a toddler. :rofl:


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

50 years of my family owning lesson horses and a boarding stable, I can confidently say horses play games with people.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> LOL! OH no, animals do plan and are spiteful. My husband messed with my cat and I said, "You better quit or he'll poo on your pillow.". He didn't quit and guess what he found that night? Yep. I took Skippy in for his Coggins test to be drawn the other day and bathed him and groomed him so he'd be my beautiful stallion. He's a cremello so everything shows. He poo'd in the trailer and smooshed it on his butt cheeks...if that wasn't spiteful..........:wink::wink:
> 
> No, seriously, do they test? You bet, they're curious creatures and they like to find things out. And they learn, good or bad, from each thing they test. Are they truly spiteful? No I don't really believe that. Is it all pain related? No. When I get a reaction that could be pain or behavior, I test back. If I'm riding and the horse bucks, I'll ride through it and then get off and check saddle fit and for pain reactions along their backs. Failing pain, we go back to work. If the horse is flinchy, we quit until we figure out what the issue is. If the horse is dodgy at the mounting block, first he's got to stand and let me mount and then we'll check for pain. Exception to that is, if I put my hands on the saddle and go to put my foot in the stirrup and it's SUCH a big reaction that pain is obvious. But is it always pain? No. Sometimes it's, "I don't wanna today, tomorrow's not looking good either. Why don't you have your secretary call mine and we'll do lunch. Some Day......". At which point I become secretary, judge, jury and executioner until that little bit is over.


I have a black and white cat... named Oreo.

She's house broken like a dog... and she HATES my husband, but only because he doesn't treat her with the proper respect an Empress deserves....

If he ever boots her out of the house or gets sideways with her... she will pee on his 'clirty' pile of clothes on the very next opportunity. And only his.

EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

"It is humorous to think of the dog deciding to mess where it was the most disgusting for the humans, but most likely it had to do with missing the owner and wanting to be near the area of the strongest smell/reminder of the owner when the first accident happened. And once a dog has eliminated in a place, they begin to accept that this is an acceptable place to use as a bathroom, whether the owner agrees or not. Why the dog did not seem ashamed of the behavior could be for various reasons. He was too happy to see his owner to mind, he was unable to associate his behavior with past behaviors he was punished for. Some dogs seem to believe it is wrong to poop in the house when the owner is present, but not when they are gone. "

What constitutes an 'owner' in a family pet situation? The Momma Dog, who pays the bills, or her Little Pups, that house break their dog, teach it tricks, feed it, walk it, doctor it, play with it, sleep,with it, groom it, wash it?

Smart Dog knew who the alpha Momma Dog was, and gave her the finger and a flounce.

It was humorous. After Smart Dog flounced, Momma Dog said, "why that so-and-so sure got back at me!" And started laughing.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Another 'revenge' incident happened many years ago. 

It was summer, the big horses were turned out on the Downs. Two of us trekked to bring them in to the stable fields. 

One mare, Nugget, a big Shire X with a docked tail (so that says how long ago!) was a really gentle creature. She was amiable and carted novice riders up the Downs four times a day without ever showing any resentment. 

I was surprised to see four families surrounding her, several children amongst them. Three men were sat on her broad back trying to get her to move which sh was refusing to do. One of the women broke off a sapling and, with both hands on the stick hit Nuddet across her butt. 

I have never seen that mare move as fast! She whipped around, dropping all three me, ears flat back she grabbed the woman across the top of her arm and swung her away. She turned and went for the men who had been on her back but at the same time being careful to not touch any of the children. 

I cusses the group and Nugget walked up to me her ears forward and her normal sweet self.


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## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

Hi All!

I would have been one of the first to say that horses aren't disingenuous, but then . . .

My big ol' TB horse Oily has always been fairly neurotic about crossing water, altho he would usually follow a more confident horse.

It was after breakfast several weeks ago, and I don't think he realized that I was still in the barn, but when I glanced out of a stall door, I saw Mr. "I'm afraid of the water" happily splashing belly-deep in The Pond. I grabbed my phone and got a foto as evidence. I then wandered out and teased him about it, pointing out his wet legs, belly, and fly-sheet. His only comment was a head-shake and a snort.

However, on a ride a few days later, I asked him to go down to a stock-pond along the trail for a drink. He started in on his usual "Oh, No!!! Not Water!!!" routine, and I reminded him about the above incident: "Come on, Oily; I know better. Remember The Pond? . . .". He kinda sighed, and waded on in.

Call it what you want, but that is what happened, and I really doubt that I will hear much more complaint from him about water in the future.

Equines have minds, and altho their motivations are/may be quite different than ours, within the realm of Being Equine, they are generally quite adept at using their intellect. For better or worse, from our human viewpoint.

Anthropomorphism:

Marthe Kiley-Worthington, in her book "Horse Watch; What it is to be Equine", defines a term "Conditional Anthropomorphism". She is rather wordy, but to paraphrase several pages of text, horses are more "like" us than "un-like" us, and if it helps in understanding them, it is appropriate to compare their responses to ones we would experience in similar situations. Basically, if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, might as well assume it IS a duck . . .

An interesting, and valuable insight.

Steve

Fotos: "Water-shy" Oily in The Pond


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Thought of another example while reading Steve's post (good post, mate!).

I have a friend who has a 20yo quarab gelding that she bought as an unbroken 2yo. My friend had a trainer break him out (according to her, it took a full YEAR of training before they even put a saddle on him :shock: ). A few years later, she was trail riding in the mountains and Tam balked at going along a narrow part of the trail that had a drop off on one side. Instead of just making him proceed, she got off and led him along until the trail widened and there wasn't a drop off anymore. That one incident was apparently proof to my friend that Tam was afraid of heights, so she continued to dismount and lead him whenever he balked at anything on the trail.

Fast forward to when I met my friend. Tam was 14. At this point, my friend hadn't been riding much, so Tam was extremely fat (one of our other friends honestly mistook him for a pregnant mare when they moved to the barn we were at and asked my friend when "she" was due) and out of shape. One of the first things I remember my friend telling me was that Tam was afraid of heights. I was relatively new to horses, but even then I thought it sounded kind of odd. It was another two years before I got to trail ride with my friend on Tam, it in the meantime, we worked together at a Girl Scout horse camp. One day, when we were out exercising a couple of the horses on the trail because we had no groups that day, we came to a spot with a slight drop off to the trail. Lo and behold, my friend dismounted her mare and led her past the "scary" spot. I had been on that particular mare on that particular trail before and knew she had no problem with the drop off. When I mentioned it to my friend, she laughed nervously and said that drop offs made her nervous, so she was more comfortable on the ground going past them. Fair enough.

Fast forward again to my first trail ride on Aires with this friend on Tam. We come to a somewhat steep part of the trail and Tam automatically stops, apparently waiting for my friend to get off and lead him. I convinced my friend that if my 2.5yo could do it, then her 16yo could do it, and that if she didn't make him, he would never do it. She had been watching old westerns and was "in awe" of some of the things the old cowboys could get their horses to do (like gallop up and down hills), so she was determined to make Tam do it too. I was expecting a huge fight because, after all, he was (supposedly) afraid of heights and refused to go up or down hills. Keep in mind, he was still moderately overweight at this point. So, my friend kicks Tam forward down the slope. Tam gave her a long-suffering "if you insist" look...and calmly walked down the hill. My friend was amazed. Like genuinely dumbfounded that he had gone down the steep hill with no fight. Her exact words to me were "He's never done that before! He always stops and makes me lead him!" My reply was "Yes, he stops because he knows you'll get off and won't make him do the work of hauling his overweight butt and you over rougher terrain." Throughout the ride, she continued to make him cross parts of the trail he would have balked at before. There was never a fight, never a complete refusal. He just did it without fuss. Of course, my friend made a HUGE deal of it, but in my mind, I saw that Tam had her number and was dialing it all day long. "If I say no, the crazy lady won't make me work. Woot Woot!" 

Later, after we got back from the ride, I asked my friend if she was afraid of heights, to which the answer was an immediate and resounding yes. So basically, for more than ten years, she had been projecting her fear of heights onto Tam, who had been taking full advantage of the situation and using it as a "get out of work free" card...all from one "test" early on in their riding career that my friend failed because she let him win by not making him go forward.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

I do think horses test us, particularly as a way to get out of work or as a way to establish dominance. As others have pointed out, in a herd setting, horses will occasionally challenge the pecking order.
For example, some of you will remember that I sent Gator to Texas for a few months several years ago. I was planning on following him a few months later, but didn't want to haul him in the heat of the summer. I had an accident that landed me in the ICU, was unable to move, and ultimately hauled him back to Colorado. When he returned to me, he had developed a habit I had never before seen him experience: when leading him into his stall or pen, he would turn around, and try to barrel his way back out. As I said, he'd never done this with me.
He had learned to do this because others had let him get away with it. And when he returned to Colorado, and I was finally in a position (not in a wheel chair or on crutches) to lead him? You bet he tried it with me. And you bet I nipped it in the bud. 

I think the real discussion and confusion lies in either the oversimplification or over complication of how we interpret behaviors. It's equally as easy to dismiss behavior as mere fight/flight instinct as it is to anthropomorphize things.


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

Anyone who doesn't think horses test people may not be thinking critically of how herd animals work. Short answer. Of course they do!

In a herd of two, either you are the leader or they are. This is really important to horses. 

I challenge all people interested in horses to spend some time watching their behavior. A good example is a new horse being introduced to a herd. Does the herd go up to them and shake hands, ask their name and what their favorite movie is? Of course not, horses don't watch movies.

All of that comes after the horses have clearly established where the new horse fits in the herd. As soon as they have established who is #1, 2, 3, 4 5 etc. they settle back down and then bonds and friendship can begin. I do believe that horses have friends, they are very social animals. However, even in a horse friendship there must be a leader and a follower. 

Riders are #2 until they demonstrate to the horse that they are a competent leader than can be trusted and understood clearly. I think that is about as succinctly as I can put it with my understanding. 

In other words, until you can be trusted to lead and communicate clearly you are not in charge. Of course our job as riders is to be in charge. Don't expect the horse to comply until you have sweated the hours to earn it. In a sense, that is what horsemanship is actually about.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Not only do horses test, but they also learn by direct association of actions with results, making no moral judgement.
That is also why I believe there are different types of spooks, for instance, and also where a hrose can learn to use spooking to his advantage
No, the horse does not start out by thinking, " if I can intimate my rider through spooking, I can get out of work"
The rider inadvertently teaches him to make that association. The first few spooks on a horse that learns to use the results for his own benefit, are true fear spooks. When that rider does not just ride that spook, continue on like nothing happened, but instead gets off, or allows the horse to turn around, go back home and be finished work, a smart horse is able to then use a pretend fear spook, to get out of work
Is that testing, or merely a learning process, connecting action with desired result?

The answer to the original question , in my mind, is yes, through the very nature of the hrose, who as a prey/herd species looks for both his position in that herd, and also gets his confidence and feeling of safety, from clear and firm leadership. At the same time, there are other factors that play into what we see at times, when it comes to what appears like a horse testing us
Rider confidence and body language is also huge, and why a horse will ride fine by something, ride out fine with one rider, and both spook and balk with another. While it can be testing at times, esp on a horse ridden by different people, thus with inconsistency, it can also be completely related to what that human projects
My favorite example, is the one I have written about before, where the rider does not know how a horse reacts in a certain situation, thus does not tense, and the horse in turn, also does not react as expected. No testing involved
The story, in case some have not read it, centered around a horse at a riding stable that was noted to spook badly in traffic, thus the stable owner always warned anyone riding this horse,or that problem, and the horse in turn, spooked accordingly, with consistency.
One day, that owner had to run some errands, thus left an assistant in charge of assigning horses to various customers. That owner, while busy in town, suddenly remembered that he had failed to tell his assistant to warn the person riding that horse about the spooking in traffic
With dread, he returned home, expecting the worst. With much relief, he noted none of the riders appeared injured, so asked the person who had ridden that horse, as to how badly he had spooked when traffic came up on him.
The puzzled rider said that the 
horse had been great, never reacted at all , as that traffic passed him. Sorta of a double blind study, LOL!


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

I can also attest to a revenge moment...

We had a bay mini horse named Paco when my daughter was young and we lived next door to Ken and Bandit.

Ken was nice enough to let Paco pasture with Bandit so they both had a buddy. Paco had to be fed in a stall in the winter, or Bandit would push him off his feed and Bandit certainly didn't need MORE feed. 

One evening, blistering cold, its after dark, I'm in the barn with my daughter. She's dumped the feed for Paco, I'm in the stall with them, guarding the stall door, because Bandit was a clever old man (32 at the time), and would open the stall door and crowd in.

While standing with my back to the door, Bandit would sliiidddeee his head up beside my head over the stall door and would lip my hair and raffle around with it. 

Heeyyyyy lady... llaadddyyyyy. Hey... Heyyyyyyy! LOOOOOK at meeee...

I kept batting him away, he'd head toss a little, vanish, come back, keep pestering me.

I finally pulled in a deep breath, slowly turned my head, and he's nose to nose with me - nostrils right in front of my face. I blew my breath right up his nose with a loud WHOOSH.

Much head tossing, snorting, etc, he trots off out of the barn.

I could hear him pacing around outside, walking circles around it, didn't think anything else about it. 

Amazing how quiet a sneaky 1000 lb horse can be? Isn't it?

He slipped back in and I never heard him... but I see his snoot out of the corner of my eye... I was going to blow air up his nose again, but I didn't get a chance. My head turned... his nostrils grew HUGE... and he blew in MY face... and it was a snotty, slobbery gust. I had... slime... and slobber... and IDK what all blown all over my face and in my hair... My daughter, probably 9 then, laughed herself sick. And Bandit resumed the head tossing, but he looked like Mr. Ed when he laughed... and I will swear to this day that horse was laughing at me. He pulled a funny on me and he was proud of it.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

Foxhunter said:


> Horses are more capable of thinking than we usually think.
> 
> One horse I had was a beggar to do many things with and leading him about meant a chain over his nose yet a friend's son, aged about four, once took his rope and lead him in to the stables. That horse kept the length of the rope away from the boy and slowed hos normal fast walk down to a crawl. When the lad stopped and walked back the horse just kept walking backwards keeping the ropes length away.
> 
> He also did the same with a woman who needed two sticks to walk. Anyone bigger and able bodied he would try it on.


Sounds just like my smart alec mare, Shan. :mrgreen:


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Since I'm on here from home, and forgive me, I know this isn't a picture thread, but:

Bandit.

I can't for the life of me find the pictures of Paco on here, but I know I just looked at them the other night while looking for something else completely unrelated to horses. LOL

Daughter is 20 now, son is almost 16. Neither will ever forget Bandit. They adored that old fart.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Atoka, just remember that you haven't been loved until you've been snoggered by a horse.


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## Hang on Fi (Sep 22, 2007)

Avna said:


> Horses "test" their environment, all the day long. Just like you do. You are part of their environment. That is the simple and correct answer.
> 
> But it isn't the only level of answer. Horses are subtle and sensitive creatures with their own agendas, and so are we, and we can interact in subtle and sensitive ways together. "Testing" is a crude way of saying "communicating", or "asking".
> 
> ...


This is a great response and I agree wholeheartedly. 

My project mare will "ask" during routine groundwork. Turning in and asking to come in when she knows well I won't let her. Falling in instead of staying on the rail, when knowing better. Albeit she's 3 years old and probably a bit more apt to ask than her seniors. Testing is what I grew up hearing when a horse does the aformentioned and you know what they say about old habits. I do my best to express she's "asking" instead of "testing."


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Atoka, just remember that you haven't been loved until you've been snoggered by a horse.



Indeed, D.A, Indeed.

And I think every single one of ours have 'gotten' me someway or another, from Sarge stealing my cheese right out of my hand a few months ago, to sneaking up and nuzzling my ear and scaring the bejesus out of me two nights ago (Trigger and I were in the round pen, he was in the pasture on the other side of it, watching the lighting way off around OKC and Sarge slipped up and nosed me - scared the CRAP out of me!) to Gina quietly finding me in the pasture and just wanting to be snuggled and hugged when she had a cold (oh that was sooo gross and snotty too) back in the spring.

Wouldn't take for them.

Even when they're acting a fool.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Part of the original question was whether 'testing' was pain related and rarely has this been mentioned in replies.

I think there is a big difference between a horse trying things on and one that is resisting from pain. 

With all animals they will disguise pain as this is a weakness. 

When I started riding the remedials as a child, there was very little thought given to 'back' problems or teeth issues. The horses were fine, those that were in for training were 'sorted' and in many many animals, horses and ponies both, only one was ever eithanised as dangerous and in retrospect it seemed more mental than physical. 

Later there was another mare that died, she was unpredictable when ridden and would have made a good bronc! Only after she died was it found she had broken her back at some point and it had fused together badly.

The last few years there has been a lot of issues with kissing spines. A fairly recent 'discovery' in vets being able to X-ray to see what has happened. Did horses in my youth have kissing spines? Probably but it wasn't known and they all worked perfectly well. 
One of the famous foundation TB stallions, Eclipse, born in the 1700s, won 18 races from 18 starts and went on to become a great sire, most modern TBs have him in their pedigree. When he died they kept his skeleton and it is still in the racing museum at Newmarket. He had a severe kissing spine. Did it slow him down? Not at all. Considering he would have been ridden many miles to different race tracks shows that it didn't cause problems. 

What I was gifted with was being able to 'feel' the difference when a horse says "I will NOT," "I can't" and "I don't understand." All need to be treated differently. The first, usually with strong determined riding, the second with finding why the cannot do something and with them not understanding, they need to be taught a different way. 

Often resistance can come from boredom. Horses being ridden in the same place, especially an arena, get bored with it amd often will resist to try and make a change. 

Personally I do not mind a fit horse giving a 'whoopee' buck or spooking at a blade of grass when cantering, it isn't to drop the rider or resist but to say, "Hey, I am feeling so well and enjoying this." I know that I am working them the right way. Usually this comes when they are three quarters fit. Once really fit they rarely do it. 

So, I would say that 98% of the time a horse tests us it is to get its own way rather than a pain issue.


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## Crazy4horses2 (Jul 12, 2017)

I definitely agree horses "test" people just to see what exactly you know possibly or if the rider/person is paying attention and will correct them there are so many ways to look at it. 

My husbands dads horse would test anyone who rode him ANYONE especially if he knew you had little experience, if you tried to get him to turn one way he'd go another if you tried to get him to go he'd just stand there until you stopped trying then he'd calmly walk off it was the same with stopping he'd just keep walking until you gave up then he'd stop. It was very amusing to watch he wouldn't stomp on you buck bite or rear he'd just down right annoy the crud out of you haha. Buddy would only try it once with you like he did with me the first time I rode him 10 years ago. He just didn't get that far with me before he gave up. 

Then there is my aunts paso fino mare (that she trained) and her grandpas twh mix mare that I trained, Pearl the paso would dance and dance toss her head kick out whip her tail back and forth up and down every single time my aunt rode her it was literally like watching two sisters fighting! When I would ride her I never had any issues I really didn't do anything different then what my aunt did she never even tested me and I thought that was extremely strange after watching the show that went on when my aunt would ride her. Then misty the TWH mix I never had many issues with her my aunt got up the courage one day to take her for a ride when I wasn't there and she got her to the gates leading out to the road and she reared misty never reared with me my aunt didn't want to ride her again.


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

I don't think people give horses enough credit. 

I have a stubborn old gelding who, I was warned when I bought him, could be hard to catch. My mare has always run up and put her nose in the halter when I called her, and I don't like chasing horses, so that's what I decided PJ had to do. I'm no horse trainer. I'm kind of a beginner, really. But anyway, PJ did not want to be caught. So I went to the gate with the two halters and held Ona's up. She reached her head over the gate and put it in the halter. I held PJ's halter up and he looked at it, looked at me, and started eating grass. So I said "fine," and fed Ona grain and kept him away from it with a crop.

The next day, I did the same thing. After I put Ona's halter on, I held PJ's up and he looked at it, thought about it for a second, and refused to put his head in. I fed Ona and he tried all sorts of tricks to get to her food and I wouldn't let him have it. I put my hand through the halter with some food in it and when he brought his head to my hand and let the halter touch it, I let him have a little food. Then I went back to keeping him away from her food.

The third day, after Ona's halter was on I held up PJ's. He let out a huge sigh and stuck his head in the halter and got his grain.

Nobody can tell me that horse didn't know exactly what I was asking him to do, on day 1. He was testing me. He wanted to see if he could get the grain without getting caught first.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Foxhunter
"Part of the original question was whether 'testing' was pain related and rarely has this been mentioned in replies.\

I did several times, because I feel if a horse acts out, due to pain, he has a real reason to do so, and thus is not testing.
So, my response is that TESTING is never PAIN related, to begin with, LOL!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

To me, the real question lies between is a horse truly testing, or is he just responding to what someone has taught him, rewarding him inadvertantly for the wrong response.
Horses seldom test, if they have been ridden\handled with consistent clear boundaries. They learn to test, once they are handled by people that do not enforce those clear , but fair boundaries, thus have learned all humans need not be respected the same, that they indeed can take over that leadership role with some people
Lesson horses are prime examples


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