# Cruel Training?



## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

Oh and yeah, I know it's dangerous to do that. Which is why you don't tie/clip both ends
I wouldn't do this with any other horse, but mine, because I could guess how she would act.
We also tried it on the ground before I got on


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## myhorsesonador (Jun 21, 2009)

I'd like to see a video of this, but I've never herd of doing that. I'd like to see what it looks like in action before I have an opinion on it.


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## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

Of course, the week my camera breaks right? maybe I'll be able to find someone who can do it for me


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Honestly it sounds very similar to the action of a bit like this:









The top of the leather attaches to the headstall, the reins attach to the rings on the bottom. This provides both poll pressure and bit pressure to encourage the horse to put their head down. 

My personal opinion is that is it just TOO much.

But if you find it helps go for it. Though I would suggest putting the reins through a ring on the saddle, not under the horse's leg that will cause rubs and will impede their movement. This may work well at the walk, but at the trot, under their legs the rein is likely to slip and go under their knee and trip them up. This could be seriously dangerous. 
The action that you're friend came up with is essentially like using side reins on a surcingle with a bit that applies poll pressure. This is smart, but really you shouldn't need such intense tools to accomplish this, low soft hands and proper training will better train the horse the skill. 
You've essentially found a way to push a horse into the correct position, this is good, but isn't it better if they understand how to do it correctly when given the regular cues? 

IMO you shouldn't need ANY special tools to ride your horse, the more tools you need the less honest communication you really have. Develop a strong working communication with your horse that doesn't rely on tools. 

You clearly love your horse a lot, she's super pretty too 
Good luck with your training!


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## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

IT teaches, then when slight pressure comes to the reins, you drop your head and move slower

and yeah, this is only for the walk, to teach her to get her head lower


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## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

that's an interesting bit, by the way


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

It's a good patch, but when you have so many pieces touching her body she's recieving a large number of 'cues' she could be relying on. Maybe she thinks, 'when the reins pull tight on my elbows it means put my head down'. Personally I don't care where my horse's head is, my horse knows how to walk and move to carry herself she doesn't need me to tell her. 
But if you want her head down, try lunging her in a surcingle and side reins. 
Now that bit may look interesting but it is no mild in the least bit, there are a number of other bits that use poll pressure also. If you really want her bending off poll pressure rather than bit pressure use a Dr. Cook's bitless that's almost all poll pressure and great for dressage horses!

The best way to teach a horse to put their head in the 'correct' position using on slight rein pressure is to - use slight rein pressure. practice on the ground at a stand still apply gentle pressure, when she gives - release and praise, move onto the saddle repeat. Practice this over and over at the stand still, the walk, the trot, the canter. Training makes good horses, not tools.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I doubt it is cruel. I also doubt there is such a thing as a collected head.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

I'd also like to add - if you have doubts over whether or not something is 'cruel' you're clearly not comfortable with it, don't do it.


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## EvilHorseOfDoom (Jun 17, 2012)

Agree, bsms.

Before you do training, consider what your ultimate purpose is. If you want a horse running round overbent and on the forehand then this is the way to go. But if your aim is collection you should be starting with the back end.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

oh noo! She's really not over collected, it's just making her head go down past being level, so she works with her but. 
We can be collected just from rein pressure, and her normal headset is level with her back
but she's being taught to do a western jog


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

IMHO horses' know where to carry their heads to be comfortable, it's not about their heads it's about their hind end. Any good instructor will tell you, reins only control the head, legs control the shoulders back. If you want her head low, make her relaxed. She will carry her head as low as comfortable, too low for her conformation may be too high for other horses in the same show. So you may think it's not too low, but if she doesn't put it there when she's relaxed - it's too low. Western jogs are supposed to show an easy comfortable beat on a soft, supple, relaxed horse. 

I'm not trying to come off as a stick in the mud, but really all these tools people keep coming up with just keep reminding me why I don't use any of them  Tools are supposed to be communication devices, not force a horse into a position not natural for them.


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## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

It's fine! i like hearing people's thoughts on this.
I'm only 16, so I have tons to learn! 
I posted a thread on how to get her to slow down, because she is not slow, even when she's relaxed and collected >.>
I was recommended the "go, stop, back, go, stop, back, go" method, and i tried that today, but my mare got confused (as she does when I ask for lots of stops then push her forward again) and she started racking with her ears pinned instead of trotting


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I guess my problem comes from having an Arab who does a beautiful jog with her neck at a +45 deg angle. She's light, balanced, smooth, does the whole floating on air thing in a relaxed jog that is a joy to ride - and she does it with her head up.

At a canter, her head being low is a sign she is NOT remotely collected. When her head goes below level, she is almost always strung out and heavy on the forehand. When she collects (moderately, she's no dressage horse), her head comes UP, but her pace slows and she shifts into 'float above the ground' mode.

I realize a lot of folks value a lower head. That may puzzle me, but I don't mind it. Lots of folks have no desire to follow my example in riding, either!

But collection takes place for most horses without a headset. It may be that at high levels of collection it differs, but even then I doubt 'collection' requires a tucked in nose. Collection is about balance and how the horse uses the power his hind end is generating.

To teach a western jog, I'd suggest riding with your weight back some and milking each rein individually to tell each shoulder, in sequence, 'not so far'. When my horses were learning to canter, they got very excited about it and turned trotting into a nightmare of fast, heavy on the front end jarring. By using each rein to tell the horse to extend its legs a little less each stride, I could usually get them into a normal trot in a dozen strides, and down to a jog in another dozen or so.

All that said, I'm not a trainer or instructor, and I only have 3 horses and I don't compete in anything - so take my advice for what you paid for it...:wink:

I'll add that I took my mare on a sunset ride in the desert today. It was her second time out at sunset. She had her head up and on a swivel for the first half, so I started singing slow songs to her. I guess I'm boring, because after about 5-10 minutes, her head slipped to level and her back relaxed. Maybe you should learn to sing badly...


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Relaxed and collected are very different, collected is a faster tempo, they put their feet down closer together (Essentially, there's far more to it about how they hold their body and all) relaxed is when they're soft and low taking long slow steps.









It sounds like you don't want to be teaching her to be putting her head down, you want to teach her to slow down her trot, making it more comfortable to sit to?

If this is what you want I think it's time to teach your horse a half halt. Apply gentle pressure with your legs to encourage forward movement, when you get that momentary speed up, squeeze and release your reins, like you're ringing out a spunge. Repeat this process until she slows and stretches her trot. Practice this posting first, to teach her a long low trot post long and low. While you're riding and she's trotting quickly hold yourself up a little longer and lower out of the saddle, slow your post and she should slow her trot to match it. Practice slowing your post to slow her trot along with practicing half halts to get her to move slow and steady. Also don't loose your seat, sit low, deep and heavy, even when posting when you sit really sit (not slamming down hard, just sit deeper at the sit). A LOT of people use squeezing one rein at a time, but it sound like you ride western? I also find one rein at a time a tough thing, you need your timing Perfect to match the horse's shoulder. It can also nag on your horse's mouth causing her to be less responsive to cues.


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## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

I sing to my mare lots. 
I should have corrected myself. When we're working, she is collected and level, like the little hunter horse she is (; I just call that "normal"
When I say she's collected, I mean I have her stride collected and her nose perpendicular with the ground. 
When I say she's collected, her head is up more than normal, but that's because her neck just doesn't bend that way! haah

Thank you for your advice, I really like the way you explained that by the way.

How did you reward your horses when you were training them to trot?


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## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

PunksTank said:


> Relaxed and collected are very different, collected is a faster tempo, they put their feet down closer together (Essentially, there's far more to it about how they hold their body and all) relaxed is when they're soft and low taking long slow steps.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


oh yeah we do that a lot. she's just so freaking bouncy. She was never supposed to trot, she preferred pacing, but her old owner broke her to trot horribly!

Our trot looks super nice, we can get collected and then extend to no end, she's naturally long strided.

I like your advice too. Maybe I'm doing something wrong with her
Thanks!


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

When they trot correctly stop nagging them, when they trot wrong nag them, if they trot correctly for a good amount of time let them walk and tell them how wonderful they are.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

The way that you're using the term collected is not correct at all. "Collected" is probably one of the most misused terms in equine terminology. Even in Dressage, TRUE collection doesn't even begin to start until 1st or 2nd Level and it's still only a few strides at most.

Tools like this can only assist. Draw reins cannot make a horse collected, they can only encourage. From your description, you are misusing the term collection like most people do.

Cruel? No. Pointless? Probably.


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## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> The way that you're using the term collected is not correct at all. "Collected" is probably one of the most misused terms in equine terminology. Even in Dressage, TRUE collection doesn't even begin to start until 1st or 2nd Level and it's still only a few strides at most.
> 
> Tools like this can only assist. Draw reins cannot make a horse collected, they can only encourage. From your description, you are misusing the term collection like most people do.
> 
> Cruel? No. Pointless? Probably.


explain collected then please.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

My mare is an Arabian. My Appy gelding is 3/4 Arabian by breeding. The mare knew how to do floaty trots and canters without a rider - it is her normal way of moving. The Appy isn't as fluid, but he is an ex-ranch horse and he knew how to jog. It was the excitement of anticipating cantering that made them go strung out and choppy.

So their reward was getting to canter IF they first relaxed at the trot. I also insisted on them cantering longer than they wanted to, which took some of the fun & excitement out of it. 

My mare was scary on her first few canters with a rider. She would go very heavy on the front end, and have her nose almost touching the ground while hauling butt around our little arena. I was seriously afraid she was about to flip over. So I'd pull her head up nearly level, and then again milk the reins.

When I took western riding lessons last summer, they had us trot around and practice adjusting the horse's pace. We were allowed to look down and watch the shoulder for the exercise. At a trot, we'd ask the horse to extend her stride by anticipating the shoulder's movement and moving the right rein slightly forward just prior to the right shoulder moving forward. And sure enough, if you did it right the horse would extend its pace. 

We would then practice slowing them down the same way. Instead of anticipating the shoulder moving forward, we would lag it slightly with the rein. It was a variation of the half-halt described in an earlier post...use just enough leg that the horse understood you didn't want it to slow down, but provide a tiny amount of resistance in the right rein as the right shoulder went forward, and then the left, right, left, right etc. And if done right, the horse would keep moving but extend its front legs a little less.

I switched from bitless to a snaffle bit with my horses because I couldn't do this with them bitless. With my nervous mare, it helps on the trail too. When she gets nervous, rather than pulling back on the reins or even shifting back in the saddle, when she starts striding out with her head way up I milk the reins and she slows her front end...and then relaxes her back and settles.

I understand what you said about confusing your mare. If I tried the technique you mentioned with my gelding, I think he would do great. But my mare would get ****ed off. She'd probably turn around and look at me in a way that said, "Make up your blankety blank mind!"

I have some differences with the dressage folks so I self-banned myself from the dressage forum last January. However, the dressage forum has a lot of threads discussing in detail what collection means and how to cue a horse to adjust its stride. Go to the dressage subforum and start looking at thread that mention headset or collection. There are a lot of very experienced people there who know their stuff much better than I know mine.


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## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

Thanks bunches


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

The official definition of a collected trot is: the head is held well in and the horse is not permitted to fully extend its limbs. The gait can be very showy but not fast nor a great coverer of distance.

So essentially trotting higher and shorter steps.

But what people are really looking for out of a collected trot is propulsion from the hind end, solid forward movement with shortened tempo of hoof beats for the trot, the tucked head IMO is appearance, but it also assists in getting the horse to ride off their hind end - not leaning heavy on the forhand.


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## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

Well then my definition of collection is correct... I just didn't know how to explain it.
That's exactly what happens when I see-saw the reins. 
Yay, I'm not crazy! haha


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Lexiie said:


> explain collected then please.


I'll take a stab at it from a non-dressage perspective.

A horse normally carries the majority of weight on the front end - somewhere around 55-65% of its weight. When a horse tries to go fast, it uses the power from its back end to accelerate and go fast, which means more of the weight needs to be supported by the front end.

However, if you want a horse to turn quickly and with balance, it needs to shift its weight off the front end so the body can swivel and turn quickly. And if you aren't in a hurry, it can be more fun to ride a horse that is supporting a bit more of its weight with the rear.

When the horse shifts its weight to the rear, it is becoming more 'collected'. Done temporarily, it is extremely useful for a cutting horse or for barrel racing. But it is difficult for a horse to do it for long periods of time, which is why dressage takes a long time to train and strengthen a horse so that it can safely have a collected gait. Military experiments done in the cavalry days indicated that if you push a horse to move 'collected' for long periods of time without a lot of preparation, the horse will be injured more often than an uncollected horse.

I don't think I've nailed the dressage definition, but I think I'm pretty close on how a lot of western riders use the term.

And that is why I don't like the idea of a collected head. It is about the body's balance, not the head location.


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## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

We worked on collection for a whole year. I'd ask her to stay collected for a little bit and eventually we worked our way
I must say it really helped build up her butt!
Well her whole topline, actually.

Collection does this, correct? So does hillwork, but our hills are scary rocky muddy tree filled death traps.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Ok so you're horse is collecting, what's the problem? Collected trots are not western jogs they are very different, which do you want your horse to do?


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## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

I definitely notice a difference in her balance
She can actually canter nicely without having to run like a nuttball, and we can do circles and figure eights and direction changes. that was her biggest challenge.


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## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

PunksTank said:


> Ok so you're horse is collecting, what's the problem? Collected trots are not western jogs they are very different, which do you want your horse to do?


slow down enough to the point where you can sit. I can do a sitting trot, she's still just super bouncy. 

I really don't remember how collection came up 

I just want her nice and slow and comfy, just so I'm not dying when my instructor says "aaaannnd sitting trot"


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I still don't even understand why you would want to use the contraption you did...


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## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

I asked my friend for her help because her 4 horses have the nicest butts, necks, and the slowest jogs I have ever seen.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I see, posted at the same time.

If all you want is slow, then just let her trot two or three steps, then bring her down to the walk for twenty steps. Trot two or three steps, walk twenty. Repeat until the horse stops trying to go faster. And everytime the horse goes faster than you want, go back to the walk for anther twenty steps.


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## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

Hmm, maybe that will work.. A lot of times she just gets confused 
I'll have to try all of this this following week.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

I don't find stop-go-stop-go to work very well, this just frustrates and confuses the horse (in many cases). 
First off - she's a standardbred She's gonna be bouncy!!
If this is what you want I think it's time to teach your horse a half halt. Apply gentle pressure with your legs to encourage forward movement, when you get that momentary speed up, squeeze and release your reins, like you're ringing out a spunge. Repeat this process until she slows and stretches her trot. Practice this posting first, to teach her a long low trot post long and low. While you're riding and she's trotting quickly hold yourself up a little longer and lower out of the saddle, slow your post and she should slow her trot to match it. Practice slowing your post to slow her trot along with practicing half halts to get her to move slow and steady. Also don't loose your seat, sit low, deep and heavy, even when posting when you sit really sit (not slamming down hard, just sit deeper at the sit). A LOT of people use squeezing one rein at a time, but it sound like you ride western? I also find one rein at a time a tough thing, you need your timing Perfect to match the horse's shoulder. It can also nag on your horse's mouth causing her to be less responsive to cues.


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## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

SorrelHorse said:


> I see, posted at the same time.
> 
> If all you want is slow, then just let her trot two or three steps, then bring her down to the walk for twenty steps. Trot two or three steps, walk twenty. Repeat until the horse stops trying to go faster. And everytime the horse goes faster than you want, go back to the walk for anther twenty steps.


but what if she really doesn't trot fast, she has a slow and long trot, it's just not slow enough.
how does the making her walk teach her to go slower? Walking is less work than trotting so isn't it a reward? Walking is always a reward or the horses at our barn 
Maybe it's just so strange a concept to us I just don't understand yet!


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Hmm...The downward transitions have always worked for me, and if it hasn't I just bump-squeeze-bump-squeeze with my hands/legss and make the horse come back to me with my seat, then go back to neutral when they give me the desired response.

Some horses will never be comfortable, but you CAN make most of them bearable.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Sorrel, sounds like you're half halting  That typically works.


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## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

PunksTank said:


> I don't find stop-go-stop-go to work very well, this just frustrates and confuses the horse (in many cases).
> First off - she's a standardbred She's gonna be bouncy!!
> If this is what you want I think it's time to teach your horse a half halt. Apply gentle pressure with your legs to encourage forward movement, when you get that momentary speed up, squeeze and release your reins, like you're ringing out a spunge. Repeat this process until she slows and stretches her trot. Practice this posting first, to teach her a long low trot post long and low. While you're riding and she's trotting quickly hold yourself up a little longer and lower out of the saddle, slow your post and she should slow her trot to match it. Practice slowing your post to slow her trot along with practicing half halts to get her to move slow and steady. Also don't loose your seat, sit low, deep and heavy, even when posting when you sit really sit (not slamming down hard, just sit deeper at the sit). A LOT of people use squeezing one rein at a time, but it sound like you ride western? I also find one rein at a time a tough thing, you need your timing Perfect to match the horse's shoulder. It can also nag on your horse's mouth causing her to be less responsive to cues.


oh no. we are so english. She's way too bouncy to even THINK about not posting. Which is why I want her to slow down


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Lexiie said:


> but what if she really doesn't trot fast, she has a slow and long trot, it's just not slow enough.
> how does the making her walk teach her to go slower? Walking is less work than trotting so isn't it a reward? Walking is always a reward or the horses at our barn
> Maybe it's just so strange a concept to us I just don't understand yet!


 
We keep posting at the same time...

Anyway, the walking gets them thinking about going slower everytime they trot.

I still don't understand what you want. You said above you wanted a slower trot for lesosns when you have to sit, but now you say he's already going slow...and earlier you also asked how we got onto the topic of collection...?


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## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

SorrelHorse said:


> Hmm...The downward transitions have always worked for me, and if it hasn't I just bump-squeeze-bump-squeeze with my hands/legss and make the horse come back to me with my seat, then go back to neutral when they give me the desired response.
> 
> Some horses will never be comfortable, but you CAN make most of them bearable.


the western horse i love the most is bouncier than my mare. He can trot slower than he walks >.> i want him to be mine


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

And haha Punks, yes, a half halt it is indeed.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Lexiie said:


> oh no. we are so english. She's way too bouncy to even THINK about not posting. Which is why I want her to slow down



OK so read what I wrote in full - if you're posting then use your post to slow your horse, when she's slow enough to sit, sit. The slower, quieter you post the slower and quieter the horse will trot.


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## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

SorrelHorse said:


> We keep posting at the same time...
> 
> Anyway, the walking gets them thinking about going slower everytime they trot.
> 
> I still don't understand what you want. You said above you wanted a slower trot for lesosns when you have to sit, but now you say he's already going slow...and earlier you also asked how we got onto the topic of collection...?


My post is slow, and her stride is super long. She looks floaty but she's super bouncy. 
If I were to try to sit our slowest trot, I would bouncy off the side and I have (bareback)
I want to be able to sit on my horse when she trots and NOT have to post.
So I want her to have a trot like a western jog.

Does that make sense?


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I personally haven't found an english horse yet that looks comfortable to me. Those Grand Prix dressage riders don't look comfortable at the sitting trot...But they make it work, and work really hard to make it look easy. That's when the muscle memory kicks in and sitting trot becmes easier. I don't think you need to alter him very much.

EDIT: Still posting at the same time.

Then walk-trot transiton, half halt, whatever you have to do.

But I actually don't think you're making sense, because you still said earlier it was slow but long strided.

SO, you want a pleasure jog, on an english horse? That's it, right?


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## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

SorrelHorse said:


> I personally haven't found an english horse yet that looks comfortable to me. Those Grand Prix dressage riders don't look comfortable at the sitting trot...But they make it work, and work really hard to make it look easy. That's when the muscle memory kicks in and sitting trot becmes easier. I don't think you need to alter him very much.


get on her and say that o.o 
no one rides her because of how unbearable her trot is


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

No trust me I understand where you're coming from. You should see Rebel on a good day, my trainer of 50+ years cringes at his trot. He can collect, he can go slow, but it will NEVER be a comfortable trot.

Might I suggest going to the lunge line with your trainer for a little while? I need to do this again myself.


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## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

She hates doing it because my mare doesn't like being lunged by anyone but me.
She can get a little evil.. 
I might ask a fellow rider to do it though


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Sounds like some groundwork to gain more respect out of her could do some good too.

I'm going back and doing a lot of respect work on my older gelding as well because he's a terror on the lunge line. Doesn't take long. I use the clinton anderson lunging for respect. Half an hour on the ground and you might find a changed horse in that aspect as well.

Well, I've given you everything I can think of here, so good luck.


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## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

She has complete respect for me and the way I do things, as I'm the only one who's touched her for the past 5 years and beforehand no one did anything with her. 
Just anyone new and she likes to test. 
Anyway, thanks so much for the advice!!


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

She is a standardbred - she is not going to have a comfy trot. If she's going as slow as she can without walking, her trot isn't the problem. I suggest practicing your sitting trot - the biggest key is to remember to Breathe!! Sing your alphabet out loud if you have to - it works for most of my students, even if they end up just laughing, they're breathing and their body is soft. You need a soft fluid moving body to match your horse's movements, the more you resist the more you bounce. I strongly suggest some bareback lessons


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Hmmm...you might try using a western saddle and using the horn to keep you from bouncing off. I can sit a pretty bouncing trot, although there does come a point where the horse & I are just flying in close formation! Long loose legs pulling your weight into the saddle usually works.

However, I've got a mustang pony who has a smooth as silk canter & gallop, but whose trot makes me pee blood. Well, almost. I think it is just how he is built. I only trot on him if I want to show someone how to control a jackhammer. If you need any concrete broken up, you can borrow him.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

I read all this and thought, if you can master sitting the trot of a STB (one with a strong gait), you will have some *awesome* core strength. Not every horse achieves the western pleasure jog. I don't even find it to be functional.

I'm more concerned that your trainer can't lunge the horse. What's up with that?


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

PunksTank said:


> The official definition of a collected trot is: the head is held well in and the horse is not permitted to fully extend its limbs. The gait can be very showy but not fast nor a great cover of


I am quoting this because I want to reply with a full keyboard. This is not the definition of "collection."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

BSMS You are hilarious xD I think I just died over that. 

Honestly though I'd try bareback, bracing in a western saddle will just dull the banging, not teach you to have a soft supple seat. 
But again Standardbred! They're about as bouncy as it gets xD


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Dressage - exactly - which is why I put two definitions, the one the dictionary offered and the one most people actually mean. Clearly the dictionary wasn't written by a horse person


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Even so, your second definition is a bit lacking. I would like to discuss in further detail without cramping my thumb 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Could go without stirrups at first too.


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## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

PunksTank said:


> She is a standardbred - she is not going to have a comfy trot. If she's going as slow as she can without walking, her trot isn't the problem. I suggest practicing your sitting trot - the biggest key is to remember to Breathe!! Sing your alphabet out loud if you have to - it works for most of my students, even if they end up just laughing, they're breathing and their body is soft. You need a soft fluid moving body to match your horse's movements, the more you resist the more you bounce. I strongly suggest some bareback lessons


I would never do that to her back. It hurts her.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

So your horse has back problems....?


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## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

boots said:


> I read all this and thought, if you can master sitting the trot of a STB (one with a strong gait), you will have some *awesome* core strength. Not every horse achieves the western pleasure jog. I don't even find it to be functional.
> 
> I'm more concerned that your trainer can't lunge the horse. What's up with that?


My horse doesn't like anyone else. 
I taught her to lunge, and I'm the only one that's done it for 5 years, sooo... she doesn't like the way other people do it.
She's so picky >.>


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## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

SorrelHorse said:


> So your horse has back problems....?


no, she's just so bouncy. out of the times my instructor and other riders have ridden her, no one could sit it.
I'm just 185 lbs, and I don't like bouncing on her back. Which is the only reason I ride her english.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I, personally, and don't take this the wrong way...Think that if a horse can't be handled by anyone than the horse isn't really being trained right.

If the horse is truly trained to a cue and truly respectful anyone who knows the cue and executes correctly should be able to do it.

Also, another question, why would you not have your trainer do it but have a fellow rider do it instead? Even if the trainer doesn't want to, I'd be concerned if she didn't at least _try...._

Edit again.

As for bareback, you do sound like you need to develop a seat, and if you won't do it bareback do it without stirrups.


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## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

SorrelHorse said:


> I, personally, and don't take this the wrong way...Think that if a horse can't be handled by anyone than the horse isn't really being trained right.
> 
> If the horse is truly trained to a cue and truly respectful anyone who knows the cue and executes correctly should be able to do it.
> 
> ...


because she doesn't want to, she hates lunging in general (because all of HER horses except for one don't lunge well) 
and she said to me "no, I'll lunge the way I lunge, it doesn't matter what she knows" so I just shut up and didn't argue.
but isn't an abrupt change in cues after 5 years a bit confusing for a horse?

I can sit fine, she's still boucny though, and I refuse to sit on her until I'm not bouncing, put me on any of the other 24 horses and I'm fine. it's just her, and it's so frustrating.
Maybe it's just me, but I'm also thinking that her being super narrow doesn't help?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

There are some big advantages to riding western with a bouncy horse. First, you can still post in a western saddle. Second, the tree of a western saddle distributes weight over a larger area - nearly twice as large, according to some estimates. So a given impact will create barely half the amount of pounds per square inch that an English saddle does. 

I usually use an Aussie-style saddle, but I ride my western saddle like an English one most of the time. My horses don't mind. And they prefer the western saddle for a sitting trot, based on ear position and general ****y-ness.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Ya if it's really not you or her then try a saddle - but honestlly, do you really need to sit her trot? just don't if it's that hard.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Lexiie said:


> My post is slow, and her stride is super long. She looks floaty but she's super bouncy.
> *If I were to try to sit our slowest trot, I would bouncy off the side and I have (bareback)*
> I want to be able to sit on my horse when she trots and NOT have to post.
> So I want her to have a trot like a western jog.
> ...


So you can or you can't sit?

IMHO if there's a problem sitting bareback, then there's a problem that needs to be fixed in the seat.

Especially if you're only sixteen, you're still young and spry. I would understand and have a little more sympathy if you were getting older and not wanting to do that kind of stuff anymore.


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## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

I've ridden lots of other horses bareback and without stirrups easily. I have no problems on any horse but her.
She's the bounciest horse I've ever ridden. 
sure I can sit and my legs won't budge, but I'm STILL bouncing. if that makes sense. 
It's not like I"m bouncing like a kid who's just learning to trot

I would like to sit her trot because that would be something that I want to accomplish.
I want to be able to sit her trot, and look and feel like I'm sitting on every other single horse that I've ever sat a trot on. 
None of the other horses I've ridden were as bouncy as she is and it's super aggrivating that I can't even sit my own horse's trot >.>
I've improved sitting it like a million times then when i first got her, but it's still unbearable


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Sorrel, IDK I've ridden my share of Standardbreds - they really are like riding a jackhammer, it's not like sitting a bouncy trot. 

Lexiie - sounds like both the horse and you work fine enough, but she's a standardbred with a horrible jog, you can't fault a cow for having a shorter neck than a giraffe.

I'll never tell someone not to practice more on improving their seat, but if you can sit a standardbred you've got an amazing seat!


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Of COURSE you're still bouncing! She is always going to be bouncy because she's a STB. Get a video. See if it looks as bad as it feels.

On my mare's equitation pattern, I feel like I just went through hell.

Watch it back on the video, beautiful equitation, and we look like a team.

I don't know what to tell you if you aren't willing to take the advice we're giving you are this point...


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I am with you on the STB thing though Punks.


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## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

I wouldn't mind if I didn't feel like I'm going to hurt my horse. 
Plus I don't allow myself to grab mane for balance, so when we go bareback it would be pretty easy to fall off, and I know i really shouldn't be afraid to but I still am! hahah


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Do what I do bareback - walk and canter  at least with the horrible bouncy ones. My mare is so fat I just sink in and she can dance all she wants I ain't going anywhere! She even has built in knee rolls 

Also - She's a standardbred, she is bouncy but she is Strong - unless you're bouncing around on her back 24/7 you're really not going to hurt her back. Just a couple minutes every now and then isn't going to matter. Or better yet, you could learn to post bareback


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## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

I love posting bareback on this one mare, ahh. it's sooo easy and she's so comfy and fat

I have lots of trouble gripping my horse because she's so narrow. she fits under my thighs but not my calves. 
Does that make sense?


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Yes that does - Maybe invest in a bareback pad then your bouncing will be buffered. I plan on doing this for my narrow Belgian (when I get him hopefully in January *fingers crossed*). Or just getting a really thick saddle pad and tying it on with a polo xD


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## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

I guess I could for when I trot, hahah
We used one, but I think it was missing a part. it was really weird.
I ride her bareback, but usually only walk/canter


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Collection is when a horse "sits" down on its haunches, drives from behind, LIFTS up through the back, and lift through the base of the neck, creating a very light front end. Think hind end down, front end up. The tempo should _not change_ through collection - the horse should be a metronome, it's the *type* of stride that makes the difference; in collection the stride becomes more vertical than horizontal, but the tempo should be unchanged. This is another very common mistake; people think that "slow" = collection... nope! Think of collection as coiling a spring. 
It takes an immense amount of conditioning to obtain true collection; the horse must be fit, as the back and abdominal muscles work together to lift the front end. Horses are naturally front-wheel-drive, if you will, and we must essentially teach them to become rear-wheel-drive. 
It has NOTHING to do with where the head is - the problem originates from people thinking "head down must be good." Well.. no. A horse can be completely strung out and have its head in the "correct" place. However, if a horse is travelling correctly through its back and body, the head will naturally fall into place.

OP - I suggest you work on getting your horse's body round - forget about its head right now. The head will fall into place when things are working correctly. 

Here are a couple very interesting links to check out:
::: Sustainable Dressage - Collection & Its Evasions - True Collection - What It Is and How to Achieve It :::
::: Sustainable Dressage - Collection & Its Evasions - False Collection & Evasions :::
The second link of the two, outlining false collection, is quite an interesting read.


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## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

ooh, more stuff to read, thank you!


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

What I do if I'm uncomforta on a horse bareback is tie a leadrope or reins around the base of their neck. I try not to grab it but if I slip I use the rope. I actually discovered that when riding Selena bridleless, I could balance if I got in toruble and eventually didn't need it anymore.


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## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

That could be fun.
I've been teaching my horse to steer off my leg with just a leadrope around her neck, so maybe i could add in bits of trotting to that


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

A couple thoughts...

Learn to sit the trot. It takes a lot of core strength and a lot of focus on riding loose and relaxed, and at the same time, not so floppily that the movement of the horse throws you off balance.

See-sawing and using draw-rein-like contraptions to pull a horse's head in do not make a collected horse. Most horses can tuck their noses in but still have their hind ends in the next county. I wish I had a pound for every horse I saw with its head on or behind the vertical, but stiff as a board through its back. I'd be able to afford my own barn.


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

There is nothing cruel about draw reins, in the right hands. Sounds like you did fine. The purpose is to teach the horse to lower it's head and soften its neck. The idea is, when the head and neck are soft and dropped, the back should round and hind end come under for impulsion. Whether or not this is how each and every horse and rider end up, I don't know. They are a great training aid. But I have seen them become a HORRIBLE handicap for both rider and horse. I will throw them on my mare maybe once a year, but it's pretty rare. Sounds like you need to work on your seat. And this is when western meets english (let the controversy begin!!) lol jk..IMO every rider should know the fundamentals and basics of each. Sitting a rough trot is NOT going to be accomplished by simply holding on with your legs. I don't care if you have hulk legs!! Gripping that much with your legs is actually counter productive. You need to relax you hips. Your butt should not move off that horses back if your trying to sit an extended trot or rough trot. You might have a whole LOT of action in your hips, but your booty should NOT be moving up and down!! Basically, your hips become some pretty hardcore hinges (forward and back.) Never sat a standardbred, but my mare is half arab with a rough rough extended trot. (When she falls out of frame and loses collection.) If she breaks down for whatever reason, I don't automatically start posting....heck no!! I would fall off going after a cow or messing up a barrel. You have to learn to sit that trot as much as possible. And if your abs and hip flexors hurt after, you did good  Also, you may need to come to the conclusion that the "nice slow but long" jog your horse has...may be the best it can give you. Now it's your turn to do for your horse. Stop trying to train your horse to be easier to ride, learn how to ride and make yourself better. You won't be able to teach this horse how to slow down until you learn how to sit the trot. Hope this helps somehow  Good luck...and I know what you mean by a one person kind of horse, my mare was that way too....but you need to have someone else work her. Anyone should be able to work and get respect from your horse. Whether she likes it or not


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

Lexiie, believe me, I know exactly where you're coming from on the incurably bouncy trot. My first horse was exactly the same; walk and canter like silk, and a trot that was gorgeous to watch, but a nightmare to sit. We prayed for a jig... that made the strides so short that it could at least be sat reasonably. :lol: That horse was largely responsible for my switch to an English saddle... you might be able to post in a western saddle, but if you want to show at all successfully, you better not do it in sight of the judge, lol. :wink::lol:

If your horse is truly relaxed and moving forward from back to front, lifting her back and rounding, and is still too bouncy for you to sit, your options really are to either keep posting, or learn to sit. I get that you can sit the trot on every other horse... so could I. But some horses really are that much more of a challenge, and the only way to learn to sit it is to work on sitting it on the challenging horse. Regardless of the limitations to this that you described earlier in the thread, bareback trotting and lunge lessons, etc. would be great (as a side-note, I would be quite concerned if my trainer's horses couldn't lunge, but that's just me... even if lunging isn't an everyday occurrence, I would still expect them to be capable of doing it willingly if asked). A good bareback pad may help your grip as well as protect your horse's back while you're learning. 

As far as actually sitting the trot goes, everything that everyone and their brother says about how to nail that sitting trot goes triple for these jackhammer bounce-boxes. The slightest element of tension in your body is going to wreak havoc, even if it's in your pinkie toe. Only try to sit for short bursts before going back to posting, or steady 2-point (which I found was significantly smoother as well). If her back is even a little bit hollow, keep posting until she is rounding and offering her back to you, and DO NOT keep trying until she drops her back away. Go back to something more comfortable before she tells you that sitting is making her uncomfortable. If this means only sitting for a stride at a time in the beginning, so be it, at least it's a start. Properly sitting the trot, even bareback, won't hurt your horse's back, AS LONG AS she is properly positioned and moving in a posture that will allow the shock and movement to be distributed efficiently. If she's doing that, it will make it easier for you to sit, and easier for her to carry you. 

If you haven't already, look up Sally Swift's _Centered Riding_ for some suggestions and mental images to keep in your mind that might help defuse any tension or positional issues in trot that may be contributing toward your bounce. As you think about it, you may have a lightbulb moment and discover that you have tension in, say, your ankles, that is causing your sit to go out the window on this more challenging trot. 

If your horse is anything at all like my old fella, she'll never really get anything that western pleasure jog. The best you can really hope for is guiding her into a correct, relaxed, foward, rounded posture by riding from the back end forward, seat into legs into hand to soften, and troubleshooting your own sitting trot and really working your core muscles, in and out of the saddle. 

As far as the draw-rein contraption you described, I wouldn't consider it cruel per se, but it probably isn't going to really help you with what you need help with, and may be downright counterproductive to achieving real relaxation, forwardness, roundness, and connection in your mare, depending on other factors that it's impossible for us to see without pics/video of your mare working with and without the rig to compare. I'd be leery of using something like that myself... everything that it might accomplish can also be done with ordinary good riding in a plain snaffle rein setup, and with a lot less wondering about whether or not it's the right way to do it. 

Just my 2 cents. Good luck!!


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## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

I could be visualizing it wrong but it sounds like a jerry rigged de gouge. I wouldn't say cruel, but it is a lot and could end up going poorly for you - as it could with many gadgets.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

Yeah, a de gogue (is my spelling right, or yours? Don't know). I was blanking on the name but I had the same thought.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

> The purpose is to teach the horse to lower it's head and soften its neck. The idea is, when the head and neck are soft and dropped, the back should round and hind end come under for impulsion.


Kind of, but you have it backwards. Forget the head. Focus on making the body right (round and supple) and the head will fall into place. Ride back to front. Forget the head!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

Army wife said:


> There is nothing cruel about draw reins, in the right hands. Sounds like you did fine. The purpose is to teach the horse to lower it's head and soften its neck. The idea is, when the head and neck are soft and dropped, the back should round and hind end come under for impulsion. Whether or not this is how each and every horse and rider end up, I don't know. They are a great training aid. But I have seen them become a HORRIBLE handicap for both rider and horse. I will throw them on my mare maybe once a year, but it's pretty rare. Sounds like you need to work on your seat. And this is when western meets english (let the controversy begin!!) lol jk..IMO every rider should know the fundamentals and basics of each. Sitting a rough trot is NOT going to be accomplished by simply holding on with your legs. I don't care if you have hulk legs!! Gripping that much with your legs is actually counter productive. You need to relax you hips. Your butt should not move off that horses back if your trying to sit an extended trot or rough trot. You might have a whole LOT of action in your hips, but your booty should NOT be moving up and down!! Basically, your hips become some pretty hardcore hinges (forward and back.) Never sat a standardbred, but my mare is half arab with a rough rough extended trot. (When she falls out of frame and loses collection.) If she breaks down for whatever reason, I don't automatically start posting....heck no!! I would fall off going after a cow or messing up a barrel. You have to learn to sit that trot as much as possible. And if your abs and hip flexors hurt after, you did good  Also, you may need to come to the conclusion that the "nice slow but long" jog your horse has...may be the best it can give you. Now it's your turn to do for your horse. Stop trying to train your horse to be easier to ride, learn how to ride and make yourself better. You won't be able to teach this horse how to slow down until you learn how to sit the trot. Hope this helps somehow  Good luck...and I know what you mean by a one person kind of horse, my mare was that way too....but you need to have someone else work her. Anyone should be able to work and get respect from your horse. Whether she likes it or not


I've asked a few people to, but no one wants to. There was one girl that was at my barn and did fine with her, but she's gone ):


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

Lexiie said:


> Well then my definition of collection is correct... I just didn't know how to explain it.
> That's exactly what happens when I see-saw the reins.
> Yay, I'm not crazy! haha


see-sawing the reins is not at all correct, nor will it produce any sort of collection. it simply teaches false framing, bit evasion, and bad habits.


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

great post by scoutrider.

draw reins aren't cruel or evil when used properly in the right situation on the right horse. they do NOT work like a gag bit (which shortens the distance from bit to poll when the reins are pulled) but work to draw the head down. 

incorrect use and/or overuse of draw reins is common, and often creates false framing, the horse ducking behind the bit, leaning on the forehand, becoming reliant on the draws, and even incorrect muscling due to the over-curvature of the neck (again talking when the draw reins are used incorrectly).

as for see-sawing the reins, i know i mentioned this above, but it bears resaysing imo. it's incorrect, doesn't properly teach the horse to accept the bit, but rather encourages and rewards the horse for avoiding the bit - exactly what you don't want to do if you want true collection and connection from back to front.

overall i highly recommend reading up on what some of the people have posted. you have a lovely attitude and willingness to learn and that is the most important part. best of luck to you and your mare!


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## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

CJ82Sky said:


> great post by scoutrider.
> 
> draw reins aren't cruel or evil when used properly in the right situation on the right horse. they do NOT work like a gag bit (which shortens the distance from bit to poll when the reins are pulled) but work to draw the head down.
> 
> ...


So I re-read everything before our ride this evening, and I'm absolutely sure for half the ring she was collected the way you guys are saying. I felt her butt and back working
I don't really know what I did to get her to do that.

I started the half halt with her, and I didn't ask her to tuck her nose in at all.

Also just a question, she circles off of my leg and when she did, she tucked her nose in without my asking.
is there any reason she'd want to do that?


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

I would think she was previously trained. Or you have trained her to do it without realizing it


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## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

I usually don't have her do that in circles  maybe she was just feeling like it


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

Maybe, but congrats on a good ride. Did you try to sit the trot using your hips??


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## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

A little bit


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

Takes lots of practice!!


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## NeuroticMare (Jan 8, 2012)

A really good exercise to start learning to sit the trot is to start off posting to find your rhythm, then sit and look at the horses shoulders, every time the left shoulder goes forward think about pushing down and forward with your left seat bone, and when the right shoulder goes forward, push down and forward with your right seatbone. Do this with every stride, and count out loud "one two one two" loudly and evenly. You will be amazed! And probably have sore abs/back


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

I learned posting this way..."raise and fall with the leg to the wall." easy to remember as a kid  (gasp) yes, i started out english and bareback only  What neuroticmare said makes pretty good sense


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## NeuroticMare (Jan 8, 2012)

Army, reading back it's actually the same thing you said, but a little more visual! I am a very literal/visual thinker so this is how I learned. I had one trainer who would always say "melt like butter on a baked potato" but it just made me think of potatoes! 

I also learned rise and fall with the leg to the wall! I remember I wasn't sure if a horse's shoulder moved like a lever or if it went straight out and back, so I wasn't sure if my butt should come down when the shoulder was coming back or going forward, so I went home and watched International Velvet to figure out what the shoulders looked like they were doing


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