# Need legal advice.. Barn owner having problems and her mare being taken away.



## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

It's a he said-she said situation. Your BO should have known to get the agreement in writing.

Honestly, why do people do verbal _anything_ when it comes to horses and financial matters?

So, unless your BO has some sort of written boarding contract and can prove that they haven't made any board payments, she's SOL.

The fluff about the 'poor ruined horsie' is unnecessary and has nothing to do with the situation.


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## LovesMyDunnBoy (Aug 11, 2011)

Well, I was just mentioning about the fact that she's not even close to that mare in that video anymore. Yet they are trying to ask a lot of money because of what she did is 2009. She doesn't ride that well at all anymore. That's how it relates. I wasn't saying the "poor ruined horsie" and you could have asked how it related in a way that wasn't so rude. I wasn't looking for symathy. Anyway, she tried to get everything in writing multiple times but there was always an excuse from them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

The BO needs to show them the door at her convenience, by couble registered letter within 3 days of receipt of notice. She doesn't need people like that. Pay up or out. No excuses. Slim chance she'll get her money and if she's hoping she will she's a fool.


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

LovesMyDunnBoy said:


> Well, I was just mentioning about the fact that she's not even close to that mare in that video anymore. Yet they are trying to ask a lot of money because of what she did is 2009. She doesn't ride that well at all anymore. That's how it relates. I wasn't saying the "poor ruined horsie" and you could have asked how it related in a way that wasn't so rude. I wasn't looking for symathy. *Anyway, she tried to get everything in writing multiple times *but there was always an excuse from them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And yet she continued to allow the status quo to be - and that is why she is in the mess she is in now. She basically volunteered for this by not insisting and ending the "arrangement" when her requests for written agreements were not met.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

LovesMyDunnBoy said:


> Well, I was just mentioning about the fact that she's not even close to that mare in that video anymore. Yet they are trying to ask a lot of money because of what she did is 2009. She doesn't ride that well at all anymore. That's how it relates. I wasn't saying the "poor ruined horsie" and you could have asked how it related in a way that wasn't so rude.


YOU said the horse was 'ruined'. If you think I'm rude, then maybe you shouldn't be so _dramatic_ about everything. :?

How the woman rides or what's happening with the horse has _nothing_ to do with the legality of the situation, so is nothing but a bid to seek sympathy for your BO.

Any owner can ask any price for a horse. Whether or not that price is realistic is another thing entirely. 



LovesMyDunnBoy said:


> Anyway, she tried to get everything in writing multiple times but there was always an excuse from them.


Then it's time to boot them out and learn from her mistakes. It's unlikely she'll be able to get money or the horse from them, since she has nothing in writing.


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## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

Legally , I don't think it's her horse. No bill of sale. She needs to make them leave - with or without that horse. No more boarders until everything is in writing
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

If she's had the vet out to check on the horse and the bills are in her name she might be able to prove ownership.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

The burden as far as paying board would fall on the boarders to prove they HAD paid. Other boarders could testify as far as the usual rate in lieu of a written contact.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chevaux (Jun 27, 2012)

nikelodeon79 said:


> The burden as far as paying board would fall on the boarders to prove they HAD paid. Other boarders could testify as far as the usual rate in lieu of a written contact.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's a good point. She may end up losing the horse but at least she can recoup the boarding fees owing. On the other hand if she does take that tactic, she might put the owners in a position to rethink what they are doing. Either way, she had better start documenting, checking out the law for her area and sending letters of intent, etc.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Most things end up in court because people don't put things down on paper.

Writing, writing, writing!!

If someone resists putting something into writing, that person needs to be booted NOW because they are not to be trusted. As clearly happened.

I'm sorry for your BO, but I hope she learned a valuable lesson. People are jerks. You can't just trust them. Writing!


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## gogaited (Oct 8, 2012)

Put everything on paper and have it notarized. That would end most of these problems. If someone refuses to do any paperwork on a deal, then bag it and run the other way.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

When I had boarders I asked for cheques with "horse board" written on it. Many times I was paid with cash and had I wanted I could have been dirty and denied payment. We had no contract so when I wanted one out on short notice, he packed up and was gone or face a huge increase. I don't tolerate threats.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

nikelodeon79 said:


> The burden as far as paying board would fall on the boarders to prove they HAD paid. Other boarders could testify as far as the usual rate in lieu of a written contact.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Nope. Burden of proof is on the accuser, not the defendant. She has to prove they DID NOT pay, not them proving the other way around.


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## Chevaux (Jun 27, 2012)

Chiilaa said:


> Nope. Burden of proof is on the accuser, not the defendant. She has to prove they DID NOT pay, not them proving the other way around.


And would that not be accomplished by a show of an accounting ledger that shows the absence of that person's name and amount?


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## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

Chiilaa said:


> Nope. Burden of proof is on the accuser, not the defendant. She has to prove they DID NOT pay, not them proving the other way around.


If a bill collector calls me and says I didn't pay, I provide proof I did pay (check number, reciept, etc.). Their records are obviously showing that I didn't pay, so I have to prove I did. This just happened to me recently. My health insurance company claimed they didn't receive payment, so I contacted my bank for a copy of the cleared check to prove I had.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Your barn owner needs to wise up, I cannot believe that someone would be this silly to be honest. 

They are not paying, and an agreement is made, fine - put something in writing. Would you buy a car without something in writing? 

As they have not signed a new boarding contract, all she can do is kick them out. No notice is even needed, they leave her property. Then she really needs to wise up and learn from this.


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## Bluebird (Jul 20, 2011)

In legal terms no matter which side of the Atlantic you are on, if it isn't in writing and signed by both parties, then there is no contract. The only hting the barn owner can do is sue for payment of rent arrears. Hwoever, it would probably cost her more to take them to court. Best thing she can do is give them notice to quit and wave goodbye to their horses...all of them! She doesn't own anything without a contract. Even if vets bills are in her name, this does not imply ownership in Law but she can sue the owners of the horse to recover the vets fees. From what you say though, I doubt she will recover any of her costs. Best to cut her losses .


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## LovesMyDunnBoy (Aug 11, 2011)

Hey everyone, here's an update. 

They moved their horses and tried to this mare. When they refused to open the gate because they owe the BO money they called the Sheriff.

When we arrived, me and the BO, the couple had already told them their side of the story and the sheriff was ready to cut the locks. Once we told the BO side, they were thinking differently. She provided the paperwork they had been given but not returned. Me and a few other people vouched that for the last 30 days (since the "verbal agreement" was made) they have not touched touched this mare, or acted as if she was their's. Even though they were there at least once a day. She was not in the same barn as the rest of their horses, she was in the BO's barn. She was being fed by us (pretty much full care) she was being fed her hay and grain. Why would my BO feed her of her hay, ride her everyday, and have her in her barn and not charge them board? 

The sheriff said the horse stays where it is (at my BOs barn) and if they want to take her it goes to court. Two days later the mare is gone, they just took her. Bo calls the sheriff, they say, well idk what to tell you. Why did this happen?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Why did this happen? 
They felt that the horse is legally theirs, so they cut the lock and took the mare. Your BO learned a very expensive lesson.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cakemom (Jul 4, 2010)

The question is, if they knew this was going on why was the barn left unmonitored long enough for a horse to be stolen?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LovesMyDunnBoy (Aug 11, 2011)

It was late at night.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Expensive lesson learned.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LovesMyDunnBoy (Aug 11, 2011)

Yeah.. I'm still wondering why they were allowed to just take her without consequences when the sheriff said she was to stay there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

If it aint written down it never happened
This is something for legal professionals to decide through the courts - the police are only there to keep the peace and ensure laws arent being broken so out of his jurisdiction as no proof of ownership had been established
The couple will no doubt claim that transactions were made in cash and no receipts given and since the BO seems lapse on paperwork that would sound plausible enough to anyone
She could try to use the vet bills as evidence of her taking responsibility but the couple might claim they repaid those in cash too


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## LovesMyDunnBoy (Aug 11, 2011)

Would the fact that anytime I have given her money she's given me a recipt be enough proof that she DOES give them?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

NO. The proof would be between those people and the B.O. 
She needed a written contract. She can file an lien for feed and care against them, regardless if there is a contract or not. look up agisters lien.


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## Bluebird (Jul 20, 2011)

Time I think for Judge Judy! Seriously though, this is a tough lesson for everyone. If you don't have anything in writing and signed by both parties, no matter which country you are in, the Law is the same - nothing in writing means no contract no matter how many receipts etc you produce. In Law, if you pay for something for an animal on someone else's behalf e.g. vets fees without the owners written agreement or anything else which the owner has not given express permission to pay for, then you cannot claim compensation/prove ownership or anything else. It is a case of 'on your own head be it'. The ONLY exception to this would be if an animal was in extreme distress and needed life/death vetinary care then it would be a case of animal welfare and you could 'technically' ask for recompense from the owner. Still no guarantees you would get it. The moral of the story, do not do anyone favours, pay for an animal's needs which you do not own or believe a verbal agreement holds up in law. It doesn't and while most people are honest and would stump up payment for their animal, there are the few who spoil it for everyone else. As for the Sheriff telling the horse owners the 'horse stays where it is'. unless the Sheriff posted a guard /removed the animal to a place of safety or the owners lived on site and had the barn under security, there is no-one to stop the horse being removed by its legal owners. It would now be up to the Sheriff to pursue the matter if he or she so wished but somehow, it is going to be a case of the Sheriff having more pressing things to do than bother about owners taking their horse back. If you feel the animal is in danger or going to be badly treated then the only thing you can do is report the matter to animal welfare. It is a tough, harsh world.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Since no one has mentioned it, this mare, "ruined" or not is worth a nice chunk of change (a he!! of a lot more than a couple hundred $$) jut as a broody.) She is an own daughter of Shining Spark, and her performance record is pretty good!

2002 LIL MISS SHINEY CHEX (embt), f. by Shining Spark. $100,414 and 51 AQHA points: 2009 NRCHA Open Bridle World Champion; NRCHA Open Two-Rein World Champion; AQHA Reserve World Champion Junior Working Cow- horse; NRCHA Limited Open Futurity Reserve Champion (Champion of the Reined Work; Reserve Fence Work); Open Bridle Reserve Champion at the 2010 NRCHAFuturity;4th,NRCHAInt.OpenFuturity,etc.

Plus, she is a proven broodmare-here is just ONE of her babies records.
Cottonwood Springs Ranch: Broodmare | Shiney Lil Miss

So, frankly, I am of the opinion that your BO was trying to pull a fast one. This mare is worth a lot ore than a few hundred $$. JMHO.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Ah, so the story is taking an interesting turn! The mare is hardly some done nothing, backyard grade.


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## LovesMyDunnBoy (Aug 11, 2011)

I know she's not, that's the issue. These people were selling her for $1000 and that's it, because they are SCARED TO DEATH of her. She's a super sensitive mare, and gets nervous real easy and gets all snorty and out of control when she has too much pressure on her. I'm not saying this in relation to this thread, but I'd be slow to say these people need animals at all. Much less horses. They have 6. One has foundered from them switching him to straight alfalfa and a lot of it, from lower quality costal. They bought one mare who could hardly walk (I think an old break in her knee) and the vet said she should be put to sleep, but not bred or ridden at least. They come back and say they plan on breeding her for a mule. I don't know, I'm honestly worried about the health of their horses in their care. But anyway, I honestly miss this mare. She was a nice girl.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LovesMyDunnBoy (Aug 11, 2011)

I'll be honest, I would never have believed this mare jad done anything she did based on how she rode had I not seen her youtube videos.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bluebird (Jul 20, 2011)

LovesMyDunnBoy said:


> I know she's not, that's the issue. These people were selling her for $1000 and that's it, because they are SCARED TO DEATH of her. She's a super sensitive mare, and gets nervous real easy and gets all snorty and out of control when she has too much pressure on her. I'm not saying this in relation to this thread, but I'd be slow to say these people need animals at all. Much less horses. They have 6. One has foundered from them switching him to straight alfalfa and a lot of it, from lower quality costal. They bought one mare who could hardly walk (I think an old break in her knee) and the vet said she should be put to sleep, but not bred or ridden at least. They come back and say they plan on breeding her for a mule. I don't know, I'm honestly worried about the health of their horses in their care. But anyway, I honestly miss this mare. She was a nice girl.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think if you have so many concerns about these people then you really should report them to your animal welfare authority otherwise you have to let it all go. It can destroy you and no-one wants that to happen.


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## LovesMyDunnBoy (Aug 11, 2011)

They have been called multiple times by other people. (a mare they bought is very skinny) I actually got threatened to have my horse taken away just because he didn't have hay in his barn. They've done nothing so far. I'm just hoping they still sell this mare to SOMEONE.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

If you are worried about the mare, and she's for sale for $1k, buy her.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Yup-she is well worth it.


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## Bluebird (Jul 20, 2011)

Animal Welfare do follow up on all reports. However, the law where animal 'cruelty' is concerned can appear bizarre. Welfare have to find evidence that an animal is being neglected or physically abused. This is very, very hard to prove in some cases and no matter what the officers 'gut' feeling is, they are prevented from acting by law. If they have concerns or suspicions, they will keep an eye on things but that is all they can do unless there is obvious abuse/neglect which cannot be related to an underlying illness. You really need to let this go and either make a report to animal welfare, buy the horse yourself or move on.


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## sillyhorses (Sep 2, 2011)

Speed Racer said:


> YOU said the horse was 'ruined'. If you think I'm rude, then maybe you shouldn't be so _dramatic_ about everything. :?
> 
> How the woman rides or what's happening with the horse has _nothing_ to do with the legality of the situation, so is nothing but a bid to seek sympathy for your BO.


I'm going to be a jerk and elaborate on this some more... I'm not sure what your riding experiences are, BUT, it is important to note:



The person who was riding the horse in the video may have just been a better rider than you and/or "Allie". Or, the rider may have simply had a different riding style than you guys, and you have not figured out this horse's buttons. Horses change hands, lose/gain fitness, etc along the path when they change hands frequently... most top level competition horses that _look_ like they'd be easy and a dream to ride, but look that way because it is the _RIDER, their riding style, and their experience _that gives the horse that illusion.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

this went from 'help with advice for BO on non paid fees and loss of horse' to a 
slam on the horse owner, and the horse that is worth nothing..


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## Shenandoah (Aug 9, 2010)

Bluebird said:


> If you don't have anything in writing and signed by both parties, no matter which country you are in, the Law is the same - nothing in writing means no contract no matter how many receipts etc you produce.


I just want to clear up some confusion here, since I've seen it repeated twice in this thread.
In the US, a verbal contract IS legally binding. It does NOT have to be in writing to be a contract.

However, the challenge becomes proving a verbal contract. It might require credible witnesses, or tape recordings, or some other method that is frequently not available. So it is always best to protect yourself with a written contract that can later serve as proof. But generally speaking verbal contracts are still legally binding.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

everyone needs to remember, even if you have a written contract you can still be sued . USA . Whomever has the Best attorney will win. You have to be careful with the wording, the meaning of the words and the phrasing, because how it is worded can and will change the meaning. you can get a judge that feels sorry for one person over the other, and it Does happen. Best thing to do is check out , ask around about various stables, and from experience about people who want to come board . i will not board now because of bad boarder. and she goes around bad mouthing me.. and she Broke Every Rule, Did not clean the pens as she agreed, Always had an excuse for Not doing and for Breaking the rules .


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## Annanoel (Mar 29, 2011)

Okay, not to continue to go off on a whim here. Does OP have an update?

Also, I don't understand why some BO's don't grow a pair of cahones and make someone leave if they start causing trouble and drama. Granted, I am a boarder and I know I don't see their side. "Allie" wanted the horse BUT, if it was my barn someone would be gone in the blink of an eye if they didn't pay or tried to pull a fast one on me. 

BO's am I right?


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