# training fads and why im angry



## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Whatever you're trying to convey, that wall-of-text gets in the way. Try rewriting it with paragraphs. I am not going to try and decipher that.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I tried, I started, but I , too, cannot work my way through that block of text.


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

ridemcowgirl069 said:


> So I have been riding since I could sit up in a saddle, not going to give away my age, I am a lady after all lol, but it's been a very long time. Over my years I have researched in books, clinics, lessons, and yes I'm ashamed to admit, YouTube. Yes I am even guilty of watching R--- g---, don't get me started. Anyway, over my years I've riden in every saddle you can imagine and been atop many different breeds.
> 
> I've done western, jumping, dressage, even worked a cow or two, and one thing I've seen is new training fads come and go. Why do they go? Because eventually people realize they don't work and they stop spending their money and buy the next great thing in horse training. The new fads are natural horsemanship and modern dressage. Both make me angry, and I ride dressage nowadays, so yes I see my own sport as a huge problem in the horse world.
> 
> ...


 
You have a LOT of very valid, albeit ranty, points and I think the block of text will turn some folks away from reading it. I did a little paragraphing for you, hope you don't mind. 
I completely agree with you on where modern dressage is heading...


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Well, while my thoughts are much like yours, esp concerning gagets used for training and the brain washing of some NH trainers, I don't see anything a bleak as you describe, because each and every one of us can train using knowledge, and feel, which is developed through experience.

I also know, ring and showing hwere i do, eventually on a loose rein, off of seat and legs, you never, never get there by using gagets

Every good traditional trainer has used the inate fact that horses are prey and herd species, along with solid training foundation,along with using good 'traditional training techniques-pressure and the release of pressure, teaching horses to move away from pressure, versus into it That does not mean you either act like ahorse, bite or kick your horse, nor graze with them

I'm not a fan or rope halters. If a horse needs a tune up in respect to a lead shank, I prefer a stud shank run under the chin. Other then that, I use a double stitched web halter and a cotton lead shank

There is good basic horsemanship, but many NH trainers focus on people that maybe never had a chance to grow up with horses and develop 'horse sense'
Thus, they promote a cookie cutter type training system, which , is trying to train people to train horses, and with a spin off of all kinds of gagets- carrot sticks, endo tapping, plus over use of the round pen, over flexing horses, esp at the standstill, teaching them to rubber neck

One of the most glaring fault of NH training, JMO, is that they get this basic axiom of training horses wrong, by focusing on the first part and completely forgetting the last part:
" Be as gentle with a horse as possible, BUt also as firm as needed, to make that horse a good citizen

Far as training/working with horses just when someone else is around, that is not practical. If I had done that when I was younger, starting all of the horses we rasied yearly, when they turned three, I never would have got the time on them!
In fact, I would wait until my oldest son got home from school to watch his younger brother, then take a young horse for a ride over the fields, often coming back at dusk.
Hubby worked as a contractor.

Far as gagets-there will always be people that try and use them, but I have been fortunate to take clinics from good horsemen, very successful in their discipline, who believe in training young horses with a snaffle and feel

Good example when I took my three year old reining mare to a cowhorse clinic, with the well known Canadian trainer Less Timmons. I had a running martingale on that snaffle. He told me to take it off and develop true feel.

I don't ride dressage, so can't comment as to what you are seeing there, beyond knowing some very high up dressage riders use Rolkur


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

ridemcowgirl069 said:


> one thing I've seen is new training fads come and go. Why do they go? Because eventually people realize they don't work and they stop spending their money and buy the next great thing in horse training. The new fads are natural horsemanship and modern dressage. Both make me angry, and I ride dressage nowadays, so yes I see my own sport as a huge problem in the horse world.


Fads are human nature. 

Just like when Atkins was all the rage to lose weight. 
Then having gastric bypass was popular. 
Etc. 
Whatever happened to just watching what you eat and exercising?

On that note, people are crazy about CrossFit right now as a fad, although I'm sure that will go by the wayside when the next fad comes out. 

Fads are human nature. If a human thinks they can take a shortcut and get amazing results (because the fad says so) they are going to try it. 

It's not only in the horse world. It's a part of life. 

Minivans were a fad for a while. Now all you see are the SUV-crossover type things. 

*shrugs*



ridemcowgirl069 said:


> most of these DVD's on the market tell us well stand in front of the horse, yeah because that's not dangerous,


I've never see an DVD (or clinician) tell a person to stand in front of the horse. You always stand off to the side, for safety reasons, as they point out. 




ridemcowgirl069 said:


> Next we see rope halters. Now has anyone ever asked why they are so effective? Well let's take a look at anatomy. On the side of a horses face are sensitive nerve bundles that nature put there to help a horse navigate while grazing, since they can't see things close to their face. So we see knots on the sides of these halters, and where do they sit? On top of sensitive nerve bundles. This is why some people will believe they have the ground work down, and then they put a regular halter on and the horse acts up.


While I agree that rope halters are a fad with the "natural horsemanship" crowd, I choose to use one because that's what I like. 

I could lead my horse with a piece of string instead if I wanted. He doesn't lead because of the halter. He leads because of his training. 

Again, people are always looking for that _magic_ fix. Seems to be human nature. 




ridemcowgirl069 said:


> please always be safe and don't work with a horse alone. even with my experience with horses, my husband is always right there with me with phone in hand whenever I work with my horses because while I know and trust them, I never know what could happen to me, and I would rather see my children grow up then go play with my horses.


That's fine if that works for you, but I wouldn't get to have horses at all if I didn't work with them alone. 95% of my time with my horses is alone. Doesn't mean I'm not careful around them, but I think it's a little over-the-top to say you should never be alone when you work with a horse or ride one. Yes, they are a living, breathing creature. Things happen. But I still choose to have horses and accept that risk. 




ridemcowgirl069 said:


> Now for the thing I really hate, modern dressage.


I won't quote the rest of the paragraph because it just gets to be a big rant, but I do agree with you for ANY discipline, it is not correct for a person to use false methods to achieve a "look". The horse has to drive from behind to use it's body correctly. The head is the last thing you worry about. 

As another example, Western pleasure has been an uphill battle as well, trying to get out of the bad habits that were allowed for so long, and in some circles still is.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_The thing I don't understand is 2000 years ago a Greek horse trainer came up with a system to train Greek war horses that was ment to use the natural abilities of the horse to get him to his full potential on the battle field, and you know what, it worked._"

Folks might want to READ what Xenophon wrote, and take a look at the bits the ancient Greeks used. It wasn't anything I want to do with my horses.

Apart from that nit, there are bad riders and trainers in any discipline, including trail riding. I think the NH movement has had some good in it, and some bad. Same for modern dressage. I think there have always been people who worked WITH horses, and people who worked AT them.

If natural horsemanship means looking for ways to communicate with the horse to make it easier for the horse to learn, I'm all for it. When it becomes filling an arena with sycophant fans...I'll pass.

Dressage, as a sport, is like any other sport: Some folks want to win at any cost. That doesn't make the idea wrong. Anyone can choose how far they are willing to go.


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## equitate (Dec 14, 2012)

The fact is it takes longer and requires a theoretical basis and a long term apprenticeship to the horse to both ride well and train well. In times past the rider depended upon the horse, and also grew up with basic horsemanship. There was no 'training to win' (and that crosses ALL the types of riding), or ignoring the effect of the rider (i.e. 1000s of bits to 'fix the horse' instead of learning how to train). I agree with the OP.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I think there are some really good valid points there and on the whole I agree with them
I've seen quite a few videos for training a horse to back up using the rope wiggle method where they stand directly in front of the horse


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

The term, "Natural Horsemanship" may be new, but if you have studied training methods, like Berry's, 100 years ago, their methods are the same.
The implementation of horse training, and the idea that your horse wants to and SHOULD BE ABLE TO play with a human bc it rocks their world, and maybe, if you are REALLLLLLLLYYYY good at it, your horse will LOVE you, are newfangled and very dangerous ideas, IMHO.
Some of the revelations, like those of imprinting foals, and very early training to create a good foundation, and a plus, in my book, to the arsenal of training ideas.
I grocery shop my training ideas, to see if I like them or not. Some I have dismissed. For instance, the idea that should face backwards when mounting your horse. The only people that I have seen do this are 6'5" tall dudes mounting 14hh ponies. Everybody else bounces around on the ground and ends up facing forward before they swing up in the saddle. (Go do a You Tube search.) Somehow this will help keep you horse from walking off. Yeah, how's THAT working out for those with this problem?!?
Good training is emotionless, boring, and everyday tedium. After years of this, my horses turned out pretty good. But, none of them backed very well.
The three I own right now back VERY well, bc I listened to trainers who thought backing everywhere was a really good idea, and now, even my 16'3hh KMH will back into the barn, a wheelbarrow, the fence, the horse trailer, out of it, or just back into the side of it, and even back all of the way into his stall. There is a psychology to asking for this, and rewarding small obediences.
That's nothing new.
bsms, Xenophon was a genius. Also, horses were kindof rare and quite the commodity, so people wanted to take care of them.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

What I have found most useful in the way of “Natural Horsemanship” hasn’t cost me a dime and has been rewarding. 

Sitting in the pasture observing and spending time with my horses not working, offering the good deal before escalating, rewarding the try, providing complete release, spending more than one day a week with my horse, providing ample turn out rather than stalling most days…none of it costs anything for me other than time and a willingness to think before reacting.

Perhaps that is just “horsemanship” but whatever you choose to call it, if it gets people interested in a better understanding of the horse-man relation-ship (horse first, man second, assuming you already understand your own perspective), rather than the more common man-horse relationship, go ahead and throw “natural” in front of it and call it a day. 

People spend all sorts of money on things like $150 tennis shoes that promise to make them run faster, jump higher, make them a winner or just keep up with the Jones', so why would the horse industry be any different? How many people do you see with a Barbie pink blanket and blinged out saddles with matching bridles that they paid extra for so they would get noticed, not trusting that their quality of riding was enough to do the job? 

The problem is not those who market the gizmos, it is the mentality of people who feel the need to throw their money down for it.


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

ridemcowgirl069 said:


> The thing I don't understand is 2000 years ago a Greek horse trainer came up with a system to train Greek war horses that was ment to use the natural abilities of the horse to get him to his full potential on the battle field, and you know what, it worked. This was the basis of classical dressage. People used this for hundreds of years because it made good horses and good riders. The horses understood what was being asked and they were physically and mentally capable of doing it. So if we know it works and you don't have to go broke to do it, than why are we not doing it.


I whole heartedly agree with BSMS and Beau. My only comment is on this section. From a classics standpoint we really don't know how exactly the war horse was trained. We've got Xenophon's trestise and a few other sparse accounts but nothing substantial or in depth. And war horses were not always broken in at their own pace. There are a few accounts throughout the ages of good war horses breaking down because they were started too young for their individual self or became mentally gone. Had its light and dark side just like today. 

Equestiran(ism) is constantly evolving. There will be times when methods seen as right tend to be not so good to use. They'll be times when methods seen as wrong tend to be used. We have to define natural horsemanship. For me it's simply learning the language and repeating that so that the horse understands. It becomes a gimmick when people overuse the term or treat it like a 'cure all'. IMHO.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Corporal said:


> ... For instance, the idea that should face backwards when mounting your horse. The only people that I have seen do this are 6'5" tall dudes mounting 14hh ponies. Everybody else bounces around on the ground and ends up facing forward before they swing up in the saddle....


A bit off topic, but that is an old style of mounting. It is meant to get you up and on the horse before it starts bucking. Hold the near side rein tight, then mount up with your leg pushing straight down while spinning into the saddle. It is actually how I was taught on a ranch in the late 70s. By the time the horse gets straightened out, you are on him.








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Erwin E. Smith Collection Guide | Collection Guide​
I found it easier because my left leg isn't at an angle. When I'm facing forward, my body is between me and the horse and my left leg is twisted & can't push hard. However, Mia is pretty good about just standing still and waiting.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

bsms said:


> "_The thing I don't understand is 2000 years ago a Greek horse trainer came up with a system to train Greek war horses that was ment to use the natural abilities of the horse to get him to his full potential on the battle field, and you know what, it worked._"
> 
> Folks might want to READ what Xenophon wrote, and take a look at the bits the ancient Greeks used. It wasn't anything I want to do with my horses.
> 
> ...


Agree with above

Well, the Greeks weren't the only ones that trained great war horses!
There were some darn good ones that fought in the war between the North and the South, at the Battle of the Little Bighorn. 
Read the story of Reckless, who served in the Koren War, and was made a Sergeant by the Marines
It is very arrogant to assume that only one method of training is superior, and if you look at some of those bits and spurs used by the Greek-hardly a perfect example
I don't need my horse to perform airs above ground, and kick my neighbour's head off. I do need a horse that I can both show and who is sensible on tough mountian trails Yes, I'm not riding into battle field, but my horses do remain calm around gun fire in hunting season .
Al Dunning, a pretty good trainer, once was giving a clinic , that I got to waTCH
He humbly stated, when explaining how he taught something to a horse, 'this is not the only way to do it, just the way I do it'
While I admire some tradition, I also like to believe that as everything, like medicine, has improved over time, including how horses are now trained by GOOD trainers.


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## Saskia (Aug 26, 2009)

I think a lot of people have issues with "fads" when comparing things to the past, not just in horses but in lots of modern things.

The reality is over the last 25 years we have experienced mass globalisation in virtually every culture. Knowledge is available in quantities and forms that far outstrips anything humanity has had before. When looking throughout history never before has so much become available so quickly. 

Even when I was a kid (90s) you'd learn things from your instructor, your friends, pony club, maybe borrow a book out from a library. There simply was not access to the range of information available. Teachers taught from experience, but that didn't work for everyone. People still were idiots around horses all the time, you just didn't see it on the internet. "Fad" or not someone who doesn't use their best judgement and compassion isn't going to make good choices. 

Learning is different now. Globally, we have a huge population, and with the internet, ways to reach them. People still want to learn, want to find out more, but educators, sales people, marketers, managers and students are figuring out that one way doesn't fit everyone. So people are selling knowledge, they're making their own programs so that people can learn that are more accessible and easier to understand than many riding instructors. 

Some people use gadgets and ride in ways aren't great for the horses. And it sucks, but I don't think its particularly new that people do this, there are always fashions that aren't great. 

In other ways, things have improved. Saddle designs incorporating new technologies, new ways of understanding movement, new materials, new breeding ideas. More and more people understanding more about horses. 

It's development. 

I feel upset at lots of the stupid, ignorant, selfish and just plain cruel things people in the horse industry do all the time. And maybe some of it is a result of these new ways of training, of learning, education and understanding, but lots of good has come from it. People have choice, they have the ability to learn on their own. Yes, some "natural horsemanship" people get it wrong, but there are so many that read the books/dvd and their mind opens. Their horsemanship doesn't end there, they learn, they experience, they grow.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

For the most part, horses have it better today then they ever did in the past.
In the past, horses were tools, whether as war horses, transportation, to work the fields, ect
In other words, everyone used horses, and many of those people were not what is considered a horse lover, for want of a better phrase
Horses had to get a job done, whether that be die with man on the battle field, and suffer beside him, or toil long hours under saddle or in harness
Yes, some show horses are abused, but only need to read history of how those glorified war horses suffered on the battle fields, in the coal mines, toiling in fields.
Read some methods used to make some rank horses into serviceable animals by people like Professor Jessie Beery, who trained horses though subjection

Today, most horses are owned for people that want to have horses, and used for recreation.
The focus has shifted from horses that would face cannon fire,, slashing swords, to horses often that excel in a specific discipline.This has also resulted in changes in training, and not always fro teh best, but then ,t hink all those war horses happily marched into battle, and were all trained by gentle techniques? Only need to look at some bit used. I have a book on the history of bits, and some were extremely barbaric
Because show horses are out in front of the public, they are often under scrutiny , but just watch some recreational riders and there certainly is some very bad horsemanship and training amongst them also. 
I have trail ridden with idiots that use a shanked bit on a horse that has no business having a curb in his mouth, janking on that bit, mush as is seen in those old westerns
I know of an outfitter that uses a running W to teach a horse to whoa,and uses saddles on the horses he rents out, that I would never think of putting on the back of one of my horses
Pack strings, where it is common to tail the horses up to one another, and where often a tail is broken
Go to Cuba, where horses are still used for daily work in the fields, and as transportation, pounding that pavement day after day, all day long. Looking at their feet, some had terrible shoing jobs and evidence of road founder
Thus, my rant is where people can't see the good horsemanship that many practice today, and instead just bring up the glories or past traditional horsemanship


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Smilie has it right. 

Black Beauty was written to highlight the cruelty that went on with horses in Victorian England. 

I do not like using gadgets on young horses, however, get a spoiled older horse and the use of a running martingale can help. 

I have had more than once had horses that would take off with a rider, and I have ridden them out and about with draw reins so when they did decide to tank off, I could get their heads between their knees and stop them. 
These horses you could ride in an arena with no problem. 

I have seen the Spanish Riding School perform on more than one occasion. Riders and horses are trained the classical way. 
What I found interesting was how when performing the musical ride, if a horse went over end the rider was firm with the bridoon to use it to get the horse in the correct position.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

bsms said:


> A bit off topic, but that is an old style of mounting. It is meant to get you up and on the horse before it starts bucking. Hold the near side rein tight, then mount up with your leg pushing straight down while spinning into the saddle. It is actually how I was taught on a ranch in the late 70s. By the time the horse gets straightened out, you are on him.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The two guys switched positions~


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

bsms said:


> A bit off topic, but that is an old style of mounting. It is meant to get you up and on the horse before it starts bucking. Hold the near side rein tight, then mount up with your leg pushing straight down while spinning into the saddle. It is actually how I was taught on a ranch in the late 70s. By the time the horse gets straightened out, you are on him.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I've removed the last two pics - but there were two things going on in that example and while 'old fashioned' they are still correct and used today​ If you have a horse that's inclined to buck or bronc the minute your backside hits the saddle then pulling its head around to your leg reduces its ability to do it​ The correct way to mount English or western is still with your back to the horses head - but if you have to use a mounting block or handy fence/gate/wall/fallen log its easier to stand the other way around​ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDQvQdl8F9Q​ ​


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## ecasey (Oct 18, 2013)

I think you're getting yourself all worked up about a lot of things that don't really matter in the long run. But if the ranting helps, by all means, that's what the forum is here for, right? 

If a training method works, it works. Like you said, horses and people are different, so why get mad at people swishing ropes in horses' faces? Maybe it makes you mad as a person, but it works with horses. I've seen it enough times to know this is a fact. If you don't like that method, just don't use it. But don't fault those who do, because it works for them.

The beauty of horse training and horses in general is there's more than one way to train successfully. And in general, horses tend to be very patient and forgiving, even when we're using a method they don't necessarily like. (Lucky for us.)

In my view, the only training methods that shouldn't be used on a horse are those that cause unnecessary pain and/or anxiety. A person should be fair and consistent, no matter what training method they use. That's what's great about natural horsemanship, by the way. These are the principles they feature.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

I think you have a few valid points, especially re gadgets, but overall your rant just isn't rational to me. I'm actually confused by a lot of it, don't get your points.



> Let's take a look at "natural" horsemanship first. One day someone saw some horses and noticed some behavior and tried to mimic it. Seems Ok, but we aren't horses,


The above IMO is an eg of 'throwing baby out with bathwater'. While there are many who are blind followers of the 'magicians'(which I think is the biggest problem for any 'Guru' teaching anything, regardless of validity or subject) & many people do seem to believe they're perceived as another horse, stating that as we are not horses there is no point in learning/using anything 'natural' that horses do with eachother, is, I think just as irrational a view personally. 

I think Smilie explained it well, that many of these new 'NH' gurus are trying to cater for non horse-sense people by devising a 'colour by numbers' type approach for the masses. I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with that, **so long as people have the sense to approach it objectively, not fanatically, blindly, without thought. But it appears to be human nature for many to blindly follow a set of 'instructions' & believe everything he(or whoever) has to say because they're Famous & because they Assert it, and without thought... so long as they use a Carrot Stick & hold their mouth in the same manner as the Guru, or call it 'NH' or 'Join Up'... 

Bottom line IMO is that there are many valuable things to learn & consider, both of natural horse behaviour & psychology, and of 'classical' type methods, but... don't drink the Kool Aid! (I have no idea where that saying came from(was it an ad??) but I've heard it here & adopted it - I love a good 'one liner'!)

Sure, there are definitely some fashions & fads, moneyspinners, like the lable 'NH'(which IMHO means everything & nothing these days) but if you actually look deeper into it, the *principles* behind *good* 'NH' are not at all new 'fads', and they DO absolutely 'work' - have done for centuries for good horsemen before they were given a lable, a formula, a marketing ploy. But as with whatever 'method', without understanding, they will not work reliably.

_



tell us we'll stand in front of the horse, yeah because that's not dangerous,

Click to expand...

Um... so are you saying you can only stand in a proscribed position(to the side I gather, & maybe only on the left??) in order to be safe with a horse?? 




swing a rope in his face, yeah ok let me go ahead and do something that I would probably punch someone in the face for and then call the cops and have them arrested for assault if they did that to me but it's cool to do it to the horse because he's so good natured and will put up with it. Now have any of you ever seen two horses in a field swinging ropes in each other's faces?

Click to expand...

That just sounds like a flip side of the fanatical people who believe they're seen as horses, IMO. Sure, there are many abusive idiots out there, but can I assume by those comments that you also wouldn't dare use a bit, lock a horse in solitary confinement, use a whip, kick a horse... etc, etc, because if you did that to a human it's abuse & you'd be in trouble with the law?? Sounds like you're thinking maybe horses & humans aren't so different after all, either. 




Next we see rope halters. Now has anyone ever asked why they are so effective? Well let's take a look at anatomy.

Click to expand...

Yes actually. Many (many, many) people have. Some even go so far as proscribe extra knots on 'pressure points' etc. I personally do like rope halters myself, mostly for practicality & lack of hardware, but I've personally made mine with consideration of NOT putting the knots on the most sensitive areas, and NOT using hard, narrow rope. And I fit ANY halter high on the nose, not down on the more sensitive & easily hurt muzzle. Why go on about rope halters for that reason though, when the 'normal' horseworld is an array of bits, spurs, chains, whips, leverage devices...




all things serious, how much of an ego do you really have to actually believe you are the leader of a 1200lb animal.

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IMO(& E) you can choose to use compulsive methods to force the horse to do as you want, or you can use your 'bigger brain' to teach the horse to trust you & want to do what you ask, or a combo of both. Whether you call it 'leadership' or 'respect'.... whatever. And if this is an argument against 'NH', I don't get that either, as most 'Guru's' tend to use as much compulsion(tho some might call it a 'promise' ;-) ) and any GOOD 'normal' horseman will strive to work with the psychology & natural behaviour of the horse.




and many well meaning people have been killed so please always be safe and don't work with a horse alone.

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Seriously?? Is that an 'NH' thing in your mind too? If so, I guess 'NH' has been 'a fad' since the first people to tame horses.




Natural is what I call a buzz word. You hear it and the wallets come and

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Yep, absolutely agree with that. It's become a marketing strategy, but I do believe it became successful in that manner *because* there is something in it. Albeit I believe it can mean nothing much these days, much lost, taken out of context, misunderstood, taken on faith, used purely as marketing...




The thing I don't understand is 2000 years ago a Greek horse trainer came up with a system to train Greek war horses that was ment to use the natural abilities of the horse to get him to his full potential on the battle field, and you know what, it worked. This was the basis of classical dressage.

Click to expand...

I assume you're speaking of Xenophon. Yep, lots of good stuff there, but I don't get your point on that either. Do you think the ancient Greeks, or classical dressage didn't use 'gadgets'? Bits & spurs for eg. Or are they not gadgets in your opinion, or they're acceptable ones? What's the difference...?




I think it might be because we are so ready ourselves to get into the show ring, that we don't care if our horses are truly ready for it and we use harsh techniques

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Yep, people want quick fixes, instant results, short cuts, get rich quick schemes. Many are also competitive, and so often this is at the expense of the horse. Seems to be human nature, whether in the horse world or otherwise.




the best relationship with our horses (again horses do not have a frontal cortex, so what you see as a relationship, is in fact cold hard instinct, not logic or emotion,

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Now earlier, you said you were a biologist or something, so you may know better on this one, but I thought horses did indeed have a frontal cortex, just an extremely small one compared to humans? At any rate, I don't get how lacking reasoning power(as it's obvious so many humans also do, despite anatomy!  ) adds up to lack of emotion or understanding or 'relationship' & so disagree with that. I seriously just don't get how anyone with an iota of experience can believe animals lack emotion. I just think it's completely irrational to say horses cannot feel happy, fear, pleasure, unhappiness, whatever. I have a background in behavioural psychology myself, and there is SO much valuable in that, but it sounds like(perhaps because of your focus on biology) you believe the 'Skinnerian' behavioural model, that an animal's brain is nothing more than an input/output box. 




With a child, you would sit down and have a nice chat with him about what you want and what you expect. You would never force him beyond his ability, but instead encourage and help him learn to expand his abilities.

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Couldn't agree more with that, but the fact is, some people DO indeed still use compulsive, punative attitudes towards kids too. And it is relatively recently, perhaps with the advent of behavioural psychology, that people have generally started to feel there's a better way, with kids/people AS WITH animals. And THAT is at the root of your 'natural horsemanship fad', so I kind of feel you're contradicting yourself to disagree with NH & then say that. I imagine it's because you have only looked superficially into 'NH'.




Lol just kidding we are all entitled to our opinion even him, even if I do hate when people single out someone because of sex, race, or sexual orientation, it's not the 50's people. (Now he's going to see this and call me an Obama loving liberal lol)

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Now I'm completely lost as to what on earth you're on about(???)




I would also like to hear about some fads that drive you guys crazy,

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The 'fad' of applying such a broad brush to lables such as 'NH' & bashing it all without understanding does my head in, as much as the bashing the 
'natural' fanatics give to the 'normal' world. IMO I can't recall too many people in this world, regardless of lable or even subject, that I agreed with everything they said, but I don't believe in discounting everything because of one or some points. IME there tends to be good & bad in everything.


"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. 

Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. 

Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in books. 

Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. 

Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. 

 But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it" 

_


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

There are always needs for 'gadgets' such as control halters when dealing with spoiled horses. 

Ideally of a horse has the correct upbringing then there is no need however many do not and if you get a horse that decides it is going to just tank off when being led then something to teach it that you do have control will be needed.


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## Regula (Jan 23, 2012)

loosie said:


> but... don't drink the Kool Aid! (I have no idea where that saying came from(was it an ad??) but I've heard it here & adopted it - I love a good 'one liner'!)


Nope, it's a lot worse than that. It stems from the Jonestown suicides (sometime in the 70s), where people drank Kool Aid laced with cyanide, just cause Jim Jones told them so...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

natisha said:


> The two guys switched positions~


The pictures were taken around 1910. I suspect it took a while to set up a camera for each shot back then. But you have an excellent eye for detail!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Foxhunter said:


> ...Ideally of a horse has the correct upbringing then there is no need however many do not and if you get a horse that decides it is going to just tank off when being led then something to teach it that you do have control will be needed.


True. I needed a better tool to convince Mia that stop meant stop. A snaffle was not the answer and neither was bitless. A curb taught her to take me seriously, and THEN she learned I had decent judgment about what was scary and what was not.

Most of our rides now are in a "Billy Allen" snaffle, which is really just a mullen snaffle with a roller in the middle. Some are in an O-ring, single joint snaffle. A few are done with a curb bit, but those rides emphasize riding without contact and relying on leg and seat, not reins.

But the right tool for the problem helped to retrain her. It also forced me to give up trying to hold her back with the reins, which was the root cause of the problem to begin with......see my signature...a "Natural Horsemanship" principle *as written by a **dressage show rider in 1890*:


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## Regula (Jan 23, 2012)

loosie said:


> Couldn't agree more with that, but the fact is, some people DO indeed still use compulsive, punative attitudes towards kids too. And it is relatively recently, perhaps with the advent of behavioural psychology, that people have generally started to feel there's a better way, with kids/people AS WITH animals. And THAT is at the root of your 'natural horsemanship fad', so I kind of feel you're contradicting yourself to disagree with NH & then say that.


I think loosie hit the nail on the head here. In a very broad sense, I actually feel that many, many things are improving. I think the conciousness of animal welfare and compassion for animals is bigger than ever before, and developing favorably.
Of course it's not perfect. 
Of course there are people who try to sell something as a "natural", "gentle" approach and it isn't. 
Of course there are people who don't have a clue about a horse's needs and sometimes they do a lot of damage that way.

But as a general trend, I think we're going in the right direction.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## IndianaJones (Aug 13, 2014)

I agree that we spend a lot of time overthinking a natural relationship these days. Some of the applications are valid...but the issue I find is if there are 20 points to make to reach a training goal, most of the horsemanship only teaches 3-4. Years of true understanding can't be replaced by a DVD or clinic. I spent the last 3-4 years muddying my waters with some of this stuff too...so I get it. I feel like I have to back out of a lot of it...shake it off, and get back to that young girl who felt her way through things successfully.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Regula said:


> I think loosie hit the nail on the head here. In a very broad sense, I actually feel that many, many things are improving. I think the conciousness of animal welfare and compassion for animals is bigger than ever before, and developing favorably.
> Of course it's not perfect.
> Of course there are people who try to sell something as a "natural", "gentle" approach and it isn't.
> Of course there are people who don't have a clue about a horse's needs and sometimes they do a lot of damage that way.
> ...


I'm not sure that we are. 
There are a lot more problem horses and poorly trained horses around now than there ever were when I was a child/teenager
I sometimes wonder if some of the NH stuff makes total beginners think that breaking and training a horse is too easy because there do seem to be more fails than successes


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## Regula (Jan 23, 2012)

Yeah, but you gotta start somewhere. Many of us aren't fortunate enough to have grown up on a farm with access to dozens of horses to learn.
I think it's ok to start learning with a simple concept and then advance as you learn. Doesn't mean abusive methods are ok, not even if you're naive. But it helps a lot more to show a beginner a few simple things he/she CAN do, even if they aren't 100% accurate. You start somewhere, you learn, you screw up sometimes, and you make it better the next time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

jaydee said:


> I sometimes wonder if some of the NH stuff makes total beginners think that breaking and training a horse is too easy because there do seem to be more fails than successes


 ^^That is why it is so important for a beginner to have a GOOD trainer actually interested in the welfare of horses in general around; not just one who takes the check and calls it a day. 

There are a lot of people out there at the lower (and upper) levels of instruction who teach riding but not horsemanship as well as there are beginners who think a few videos will make them into CA. I believe both are contributors to the problem of ill mannered horses.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I agree with Jaydee on there being more problem horses today than there were yesterday.

Far to many people have a few lessons, go buy a horse and think that is all there is to it. (A bit of an exaggeration maybe but not far off it.) 

I do know that when horses/ponies came to be 'sorted' when they had problems., they were ridden through those problems, no excuses of I'll fitting tack, bad backs, kissing spines, ulcers et al. 

They were ridden and worked through it. Horses that bucked when cantering were taken to the hills and cantered up them two or three times and then cantered back down them. No messing around, plenty of work, sensible feed and riders with determination to get it sorted.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Regula said:


> Nope, it's a lot worse than that. It stems from the Jonestown suicides (sometime in the 70s), where people drank Kool Aid laced with cyanide, just cause Jim Jones told them so...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:shock:Oh Jeez! I think I just... unadopted it on that note!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

While it's an advantage to grow up in a horsey family there's no excuse for anyone to 'just dive in' unless they live miles from anywhere and can't find somewhere decent to learn
I don't see cost as an excuse either - keeping a horse isn't cheap, if someone can't afford some lessons up front how can they afford to keep a horse properly?
One of my best friends grew up in town with the least horse minded parents imaginable but when she began the 'I want a pony' thing they took her to a good riding school where she learnt to ride properly and to care for a pony, then when she had her first horses she kept them on a good yard where she always had people to turn to for advice and hands on assistance 
If you buy a sensible schoolmaster that won't take advantage it isn't so bad - but that whole green on green thing is so true


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

jaydee said:


> I'm not sure that we are.
> There are a lot more problem horses and poorly trained horses around now than there ever were when I was a child/teenager
> I sometimes wonder if some of the NH stuff makes total beginners think that breaking and training a horse is too easy because there do seem to be more fails than successes


Not sure about that. In the old days, 'rogue' horses just got sent to the knackers a lot quicker. And in my experience at least, while horses may have been trained to ride, they were almost never well mannered/trained on the ground. I do think that there are a lot of people out there that think they can do it all themselves without good training(on the person's part), but is that really a new thing?? To give one bad eg, long before 'NH', my father 'broke in' my donkey to ride, when I was 5yo, just by repeatedly putting me on him.... & picking me up & putting me back on when he bucked me off, until the donkey gave up bucking. We used to steer him by tapping his ear with a stick! I was never allowed at ponyclub because... my pony's ears were too long! but my impression of it was not very encouraging anyway, of instructors screaming, horses out of control with kids aboard... although standing on the sidelines on a donkey could possibly have had something to do with those experiences!:twisted:


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

In all the years from when I was a child, very few 'remedials' ever went to the knackers and I've had plenty!


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## ridemcowgirl069 (Jul 29, 2013)

Well thank you all for your responses. I find it very insightful to see what your thoughts are. Now to explain. This was a social experiment to see how people respond, both when you say bad things about a training style they might use, and also what people might say when it's a training style they would never think of using. This is why I use two polar opposites such as NH and modern dressage. Some of what I said I agree with but most I really couldn't care less about it. Another point to it was at the end I asked about what fads you guys didn't like and why not. most people did not really tell me anything about what I asked to hear about, but instead either agreed or disagreed with my opinions even after giving a clear example when I said the Big Lick, which was an example because I know so many people don't agree with putting acid on a horses legs, but no one even mentioned it as a method they don't agree with. Thanks once again, I believe that you all came up with very good points and are very passionate about your horses and what is best for them.


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## Textan49 (Feb 13, 2015)

bsms said:


> A bit off topic, but that is an old style of mounting. It is meant to get you up and on the horse before it starts bucking. Hold the near side rein tight, then mount up with your leg pushing straight down while spinning into the saddle. It is actually how I was taught on a ranch in the late 70s. By the time the horse gets straightened out, you are on him.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I was taught the same way but was told that it was so the horse couldn't cow kick you!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Foxhunter said:


> There are always needs for 'gadgets' such as control halters when dealing with spoiled horses.
> 
> Ideally of a horse has the correct upbringing then there is no need however many do not and if you get a horse that decides it is going to just tank off when being led then something to teach it that you do have control will be needed.


Agree with this
Ideally, a horse is brought up and trained in such a manner that he never tests his own strength against us puny humans
This phycological approach starts right when he halter train that horse, so that he grows up thinking that plain halter and lead shank actually controls him physically, when in fact, was a horse not conditioned to believe this, no way could you hold an adult horse, or even a yearling by pure strength 
Correct training and response to a bit is no different.

HOWEVER, once a horse learns through some mis handling that he can indeed pull away while lunged or led, or that he can bolt and run through a bit, you have to use whatever it takes to make that horse never again successful in doing so, before any real re -training can begin

So, yes, if we are talking in the broad scope of horses, including dealing with spoiled horses, and not just training a horse correctly from day one, then gadgets have their place

I won't hesitate to use a stud shank on a horse that pulls away from you, a body rope on a halter puller, but I still think dealing with a spoiled horse under saddle, is best done with a snaffle, riiding in some confined place for awhile, and getting body control on that horse

By the way, it was actually the father of' NH', Tom Dorrance that put forth the 'be as gentle with a horse as possible, but also as firm s needed, to make that horse a good citizen'

Good horse training happens in both traditional and NH training, as does poor horse training. To me, it is not NH versus traditional, but rather good training versus bad training

You also have to modify from 'ideal' to use what is needed, when dealing with a spoiled horse.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

ridemcowgirl069 said:


> Well thank you all for your responses. I find it very insightful to see what your thoughts are. Now to explain. This was a social experiment to see how people respond, both when you say bad things about a training style they might use, and also what people might say when it's a training style they would never think of using. This is why I use two polar opposites such as NH and modern dressage. Some of what I said I agree with but most I really couldn't care less about it. Another point to it was at the end I asked about what fads you guys didn't like and why not. most people did not really tell me anything about what I asked to hear about, but instead either agreed or disagreed with my opinions even after giving a clear example when I said the Big Lick, which was an example because I know so many people don't agree with putting acid on a horses legs, but no one even mentioned it as a method they don't agree with. Thanks once again, I believe that you all came up with very good points and are very passionate about your horses and what is best for them.



Outrageous!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Thread closed for review


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