# Would you buy a very spooky horse because they are good at showing?



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

This for me is an automatic PASS and keep on looking. If a horse has to be medicated to take the edge off then that is not a horse you (G) need to be on under any circumstance.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

What would you enjoy more: the company of a good horse, or the company of a drawer full of ribbons?


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

I got to,_ "He's extraordinarily unpredictable on the flat at home, which becomes dangerous when the horse is extremely fast and athletic."...._
Don't need to know anymore...

*PASS............*


So,...what and how are you supposed to exercise, condition, take lessons, practice and then bring the horse to unfamiliar show grounds and compete...
Yea, no...
There are to many nice horses to lease, to purchase that are dependable mounts that will help you to achieve not hold you back in the show ring... or at home.
Showing is not all jumping...
_*PASS......*_
:runninghorse2:...
_sorry... jmo
_


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

You couldn't even pay me to ride a *moderately* spooky horse. Heck, even a "sort of" of spooky horse would get a total pass from me. But then, that's me. My first horse would explode out of nowhere. Spooks, bolts, shies. I fell a LOT in the year that I owned him -- I was 11/12 at the time -- and now in my late 30s I'm STILL traumatized from it and have flashbacks to that feeling when I ride.

Spookiness is the main risk that, no matter how good a rider you are, you're still taking your life in your hands with. A violent spook can unseat -- and seriously hurt -- ANYONE.

Ribbons don't mean much if you have a wreck and do irreparable damage to your body/brain.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

A pass from me.
That horse is more of a problem than ‘very spooky’.

It’s possible that a very different lifestyle management regime could change him but if you can’t offer that then I see no point in having him


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

You couldn't pay me to own a horse like that. Riding is dangerous. Jumping -- far more dangerous. Jumping on an unpredictable skittish bad tempered horse? Only for the I-Believe-I-Am-Immortal set. 

Yes, there are plenty of sane, sensible hunters who do well in the show ring. They are worth actual money, though, unlike the horse under discussion, so do not be surprised by this.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Taking a broader look at this I would question the fact that this horse behaves at shows and messes around at home. Seems contradicting behaviour to me. 

Usually the excitement of a show would make a horse behave with more unpredictability than at home so, I would be questioning why. 

Being told this is an intelligent horse my first thought would be what work is he doing? Is he always ridden in the arena or does he get taken out on the trails? Is boredom the factor? 

The other thing said was that if he was corrected it made him worse. This might well be because he resents being told to stop his antics. Much as a child who has ruled the roost will put up a battle when the worm turns and parents go commando, so will a horse. Quickly adding that any corrections need to be firm and fair, not necessarily beating him up but making life uncomfortable by doing very tight circles against the way he spooked, before moving him forward to what he was being asked to do. 

I agree with the others that you should pass on this horse. Admit that this is a horse I would have enjoyed purely to solve the problem.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

I've seen horses like this given away because people didn't want to deal with them. I sure wouldn't pay money for one. as @Avna said, however, a horse that shows well and is sane and sensible will have a price that reflects that.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

elkie09 said:


> I have never owned a horse, I have always leased / shareboarded historically. Never really showed before due to not leasing or shareboarding horses that were considered competitive. I began showing for the first time when I got this horse a year ago *because he IS competitive*. In fact, he's a blue ribbon pig, a division hog. I'm ecstatic with how well we did this year, considering my limited show experience.
> 
> On a whole: *great competition horse in the spring and summer months*...a time bomb in the fall and winter months, even at 3 day shows. I basically been told that any competitive horse will be hot tempered or spooky and that I should basically buy this horse because he's so good in the show ring in the summer and judges pin him even though he's an OTTB. *He's not a cheap horse* and he doesn't have a nice temper either.* Nor do I find his lead change to be easy*, which is an issue for me.



Pass. He's an expensive horse that CAN be good in the show ring but is NOT solid in the show ring.


There are better ones out there, but yes, expect to pay a fair price.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Nope. Absolutely NOPE. I have a spooky mare who no one wants to ride anymore (including me). She's stunningly gorgeous. Actually has lovely barn manners. Great at liberty training and groundwork. But under saddle, she's a hot mess. I have fallen off her many times, and gotten a concussion. I can't sell her because no one wants to deal with her. So she's pretty much a pasture pet for now. 

On the other hand, we DO have a show horse who is a complete and total gentleman. He is my daughter's show jumper, a 20 year old Arab. Sure, age does help, but he has always been a solid citizen. And he wins at every show. We're taking it easy as far as jump height because of his age (and a touch of arthritis), but he is still outperforming other horses less than half his age. There are LOTS of good show horses that are also good citizens, and actually enjoyable to be around. Who wants to spend time with a horse that wants to kill you? That does NOT sound like fun to me. 

I'm surprised this horse is good in the show ring, but would not at all be surprised if he fell apart when conditions aren't to his liking. Last show my daughter did with her horse, we were hit by three major thunderstorms during the day. A lot of horses were terrified. He was cool as a cucumber. At least one quarter of the ring was made into a lake from the downpour, and the sky would clear between storms, so there was a sky reflection in the water. Horses were refusing, bucking, shying away... my daughter's gem of a horse just cantered through it like there was nothing there and went on to jump a course and bring home the division championship. So yes, there are sane ones out there. Find one like that. Trust me, it makes everything so much more enjoyable.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

He may have some other problems going on, but for me, those problems would be other people's, no thanks.


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## AndalusianRobyn (Nov 27, 2017)

Unless you are some super qualified and experienced trainer dedicated to spending years turning this horse around or you somehow have the insane amount of money needed long term to pay one, no way. Riding's not much fun with a broken back. There's a reason not all trainers will even take on a horse like that.


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## lostastirrup (Jan 6, 2015)

Honestly I'd still take him but expect him to be cheap. I bought my pony similar and before then was riding ottbs qhs and the usual variety of WB's and God knows what that goes with being. Horse-less rider. If he has limited experience and most of it is under you I'd expect a price cut for you specifically, and I'd expect the owner to know their horse is dangerous and price accordingly.  

You could do what a couple of people on here have done and buy a nice, green, sane ottb for pennies and have your killer show horse. They take time and recuperation but there are a lot of ottb adoptions that make that transition easier.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

If he was a horse who could take you to the top and carry you around the big classes, I'd be more inclined to take a second look, but I'd expect a reduced price tag. You don't say what heights your showing at. If its anything under 1-1.1m ish, you can find something else, especially in the realm of ottbs.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Glad I'm not the only one that doesn't have the nerves for spooking.

I gave away the horse I raised from a foal, and loved to death, because I fell off him a handful of times when he spooked (over the course of about 6 years) but that was enough to give me anxiety every time I rode him. I knew if things kept going the way they were, I would be too scared to ride at all. So I re-homed him with a neighbor that loves him (and is fearless) and I am riding a really wonderful, 17 yr old horse on trails whom I trust and am not afraid of. Even so, I find that if I ride through something that my young horse would have spooked at (a different neighbor's charging dogs for instance) I get anxiety even with my "good" horse. It takes a lot to overcome those feelings. 

Ironically my "good" horse was given to me by an older lady who came off her in a spook and it shook her confidence in the horse, because after a certain age you realize that falling off a horse can really get you hurt. But this horse is so much less spooky than my young one was and I trust her and am not worried about coming off. I think that's the difference.....trust. We all know every time we ride, we could potentially come off. But trusting the horse and not thinking about it every time you ride makes all the difference.

Spooky horses need a special rider and I'm not that person. (Maybe you are?) I want riding to be FUN and I can't have fun if I am scared of hitting the ground every time I ride.

I don't show, so that doesn't factor into it at all for me. I don't know. I guess it depends on how wonderful of a show horse he is and if it's worth the risk to you. It's not worth the risk to me, but we are all different.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

That's interesting how everyone is focused on "being spooky." That actually wasn't what caught my eye. What caught my eye was "being mean-spirited and aggressive."

I currently ride two spooky horses, one is mine and one is a "lesson horse" I could dump anytime. However, I have a picture of my horse snoozing with his head resting on mine, and my "lesson horse" nickers when I come to pick him up and he rolls while I have him on a lead rope while grazing (which I interpret as a sign of trust). They are both good eggs, and I enjoy riding both of them despite not being exactly what you'd call "police horse material."


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Yea, it's not the spookiness that turns me off this horse. It's the way he reacts. It shows a lack of ride-ability.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

What changes between his summer routine and his winter routine? Does he have unlimited hay or pasture access?

I would guess this horse has ulcers. I would also guess that he is very unhappy being stabled. Is he ridden in an indoor arena during the winter? I suspect he is burned out. Perhaps even has an underlying lameness or other health issue.

He just sounds like a very unhappy horse. Unhappy with his life. 

I'm guessing if you turned him out to pasture for about a year, you might have a happier horse.

Anytime I have a horse that gets really spooky, i immediately suspect gastric ulcers. My mare had severe ulcers and was a spooky mess. My rescue horse also was a wreck due to ulcers. 

I would be looking at everything - from tack fit, to the bit used, to pain responses. What is he fed? How often is he fed?

It is not normal for a horse to change from one extreme in the summer to a different one in the winter. 

If I bought him, i would probably find a different stable and get him turned out year round. I would probably treat for ulcers and figure out what in his routine is upsetting him while leasing, before buying. See if ulcer treatment improves his behavior. That purchase price would need to be low.

That said, my first horse could spin bolt right out from under you and she threw me every year. But those spooks were predictable because she only spooked when ridden by herself and something popped out at her on the trail. She was perfect with another horse, provided that horse didn't spook. She was a great city horse- traffic, car sirens, lawnmowers, and fireworks never bothered her. Just not confident by herself. Good in an arena. 

Honestly, I would pass unless you are certain you can turn him around with a change in management. He just sounds like he is mentally a mess and unhappy about something. Like he is screaming for help and no one is listening. Is his temperament something that would improve with a life change? I don't know. 

That is more than just being spooky. I had one horse that would make up ghosts and do all sorts of nasty pranks-rears, bucks, the airs above the ground. He was a mental case. You could see the look on his face, right before he pulled something. A personality defect. His mom was not like that so it must have come from the sire. I definitely wouldn't want a horse like him. He went to a lady who rides racehorses. Tossed her the first ride but she took him home anyways.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Easy to answer; NO. I cannot abide a really spooky horse. 

To buy? and own? no thanks.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

mmshiro said:


> That's interesting how everyone is focused on "being spooky." That actually wasn't what caught my eye. What caught my eye was "being mean-spirited and aggressive."
> 
> I currently ride two spooky horses, one is mine and one is a "lesson horse" I could dump anytime. However, I have a picture of my horse snoozing with his head resting on mine, and my "lesson horse" nickers when I come to pick him up and he rolls while I have him on a lead rope while grazing (which I interpret as a sign of trust). They are both good eggs, and I enjoy riding both of them despite not being exactly what you'd call "police horse material."



Well, I guess I must admit I never had a "mean-spirited and aggressive" horse. So.....I don't know if that is something that could be changed or not. 

My spooky horse that I didn't keep had a lovely personality and was basically a "good egg." He wasn't mean at all, but that wasn't enough to make me comfortable riding him. I always had a fear of hitting the ground. I would have loved to said it was enough just to keep him as a pet and not ride him, but I was constantly trying to "fix" him and I just couldn't seem to be happy with him as a pet only. It's like we were so close if only I tried a little harder. But it got to the point I couldn't get past the neighbor's dogs without having a mental breakdown......so I finally said I couldn't do it anymore. :frown_color: I would love it if he came back to me someday, when he was an older horse and I wasn't worried about "fixing" him anymore.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

trailhorserider said:


> Well, I guess I must admit I never had a "mean-spirited and aggressive" horse. So.....I don't know if that is something that could be changed or not.


Majority of horses that are mean spirited and aggressive are so unhappy they are reacting that way because they have no other way of expressing themselves - all other, subtle signs that something is wrong, have been ignored.

They are not difficult to turn 180 and get them like a pet dog. It takes an understanding and coming to an agreement rather than 'being boss'. 

There was a horse in race training, he wasn't a good racehorse and was out to get you every time. The lads hated him all round, riding him or doing him in the stable. When ridden he would be cantering rather than walking and would break out in a cold sweat after work. 

I took over this horse, I wasmalways exceedingly nice to him. I did have to watch out for when he was going to kick or bite and would correct with a word or a finger poke. Most of it I ignored. I started riding him when the snow was on the ground, I was able to calm him to walking, on the gallops I could stop him running off with me by pulling on his neck strap, he remained relaxed and was holding his own on he gallops with the good horses. 

There was nothing nasty about him that had not been man made. 

My last horse, Rufus was much the same. Sour, always had his ears pinned in the stable, kicked and bit given the chance. When it came time to tack him he always moved away when I went to saddle him. That told me his saddle didn't fit. As soon as I found one that did, my dressage saddle, he stopped moving away. We came to an understanding and, that little horse became such a character of fun. He had a wicked sense of humour but knew where the line was drawn. I let him have his fun because that was who he truly was. 

He went from fighting you to run away every time he was ridden to being totally relaxed and trusting on a loose rein. 

They can be turned around if you understand what they are trying to say.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

mmshiro said:


> That's interesting how everyone is focused on "being spooky." That actually wasn't what caught my eye. What caught my eye was "being mean-spirited and aggressive."
> 
> I currently ride two spooky horses, one is mine and one is a "lesson horse" I could dump anytime. However, I have a picture of my horse snoozing with his head resting on mine, and my "lesson horse" nickers when I come to pick him up and he rolls while I have him on a lead rope while grazing (which I interpret as a sign of trust). They are both good eggs, and I enjoy riding both of them despite not being exactly what you'd call "police horse material."


Well, I've learned, thanks to my mare, that there's spooky and then there's SPOOKY. There's a lot of interpretation in there and it's very subjective. I've seen people terrified on a pretty quiet horse, and others who don't think a little jumpiness is a big deal. So when someone says a horse is spooky, it's difficult to assess online. The only thing you can do is base it on the rider's level. The OP is competing successfully, so that tells me we're not dealing with a beginner rider here. 

A few people said the same about my mare Kodak. Overcoming her anxiety about being around humans was the easy part. She never had any dirt in her, so that wasn't a problem, but initially, you couldn't go near her. She wouldn't take a treat from you, her jaw was clenched the whole time you were around her. We got beyond that with a lot of time and patience. But a horse that explodes out of the blue, that cannot be tied solid, that is utterly unpredictable and once triggered, goes into full panic mode OR, alternatively, will not stop until you are off their backs, is a horse that very few people have any desire to take on. Those are better left to the pros. OP is looking for a first horse. It should be a good experience, not one full of frustration, hurt, and fear. Because it's very hard to come back from that. No one wants to take on Kodak, not even the most experienced riders whom I've offered her to (free, off-property lease) because once they ride her, they realize she's just a mess of problems, some of which may be insurmountable.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Foxhunter said:


> Majority of horses that are mean spirited and aggressive are so unhappy they are reacting that way because they have no other way of expressing themselves - all other, subtle signs that something is wrong, have been ignored.
> 
> They are not difficult to turn 180 and get them like a pet dog. It takes an understanding and coming to an agreement rather than 'being boss'.
> 
> ...


OP has kind of disappeared on this thread, but if I had to guess, I'd say they are situated at a highly competitive show barn with many amenities for the clients. I did like to read about turn-out -- I don't know how much. I also don't know whether that horse, like many retirees, got a got chunk of time off after the track to decompress before getting started with the after-track training. If that wasn't done carefully, I can see how it is hard to switch for an OTTB from "don't let anyone pass" to "there's someone passing us during warm-up in the arena".

OTTBs, owing to their former environment, tend to be not "spooky." They've seen crowds, noise, vehicles, ambulances, flags - I'm sure you know more about it than I having actually worked in that environment. So for this horse, I'd actually lean more towards something like "defensive aggressiveness." He just seems miserable with everything that's being done to him.

There is no doubt in my mind that someone with a primary interest in horsemanship could do something with this horse so he becomes a good citizen. That means, however, sacrificing the ribbons for an amount of time to, as you said, "listen to what the horse has to say." "Being excessively kind to the horse," as you have also written, seems to be an excellent attempt to get to the heart and mind of this horse. 

Unfortunately, he does not live in such an environment, and OP has no interest in that kind of challenge.


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## elkie09 (Sep 22, 2016)

SteadyOn said:


> You couldn't even pay me to ride a *moderately* spooky horse. Heck, even a "sort of" of spooky horse would get a total pass from me. But then, that's me. My first horse would explode out of nowhere. Spooks, bolts, shies. I fell a LOT in the year that I owned him -- I was 11/12 at the time -- and now in my late 30s I'm STILL traumatized from it and have flashbacks to that feeling when I ride.
> 
> Spookiness is the main risk that, no matter how good a rider you are, you're still taking your life in your hands with. A violent spook can unseat -- and seriously hurt -- ANYONE.
> 
> Ribbons don't mean much if you have a wreck and do irreparable damage to your body/brain.



This rings home for me. I've honestly been lucky that I haven't fallen more. I keep deep in the seat with this horse because I never know when something could happen. I'm glad to see there are a lot of people who aren't into spooky horses, it's a very nice reality check for me. A lot of people in my barn either are the type who would put their life on the line for a competition or are professionals.

And believe me...I used to sweat with terror walking into his stall when he first came. This horse eats like a wolf on a carcass and eyeballs every man, woman, and child that comes into his space with threat in his eyes. Now, he is happy with me coming into his stall, because I'm the fun treat woman. BUT. If the horses on either side of him look at me after I've given him a treat, he tries to maul them through the bars. He is...something else for sure and I may be lax on him because I know being 'boss' won't work on him...but who knows how he will be treated next. Very sad, I think. 







beau159 said:


> Pass. He's an expensive horse that CAN be good in the show ring but is NOT solid in the show ring.
> 
> 
> There are better ones out there, but yes, expect to pay a fair price.



To be honest, I think this horse would be a great horse for a professional. But I have also seen professionals miss lead changes on this horse because he doesn't take the queue...so who knows. I'm no professional and not a trainer by any means, so I think I'll agree with the consensus here that this horse is a pass. It makes me sad in a way, because where ever he goes next will probably not be as kind to him as I have been. This horse tolerates me, likes seeing me come to the pasture because I'm his treat lady...but his unpredictability just...doesn't work for me.


Oh, I would expect to pay for a nicer horse. I'm willing. But...was a little shocked that the price on this horse didn't come down after my trainer admitted I'd been a saint through the leasing period in winter and that he turned out to be a much more difficult horse than she thought he would be on first look (we got him in the end of last summer, so for a week he was an angel with bad ground manners...then the temperature dropped the day I signed the lease and the flip switched for the next 6 months after). His sale price is in the lower five figures, but not in the teens. I was essentially paying $1000 every month just in lease fees. I personally don't find that cheap considering his drama, but some people might I suppose.








4horses said:


> What changes between his summer routine and his winter routine? Does he have unlimited hay or pasture access?
> 
> I would guess this horse has ulcers. I would also guess that he is very unhappy being stabled. Is he ridden in an indoor arena during the winter? I suspect he is burned out. Perhaps even has an underlying lameness or other health issue.
> 
> ...



Oh, yes. We realized that he loves his pasture time and that it helps calm him immensely. Unfortunately, we don't live in the south, so pasture time only comes in spring/summer for this horse. He's in his stall all winter and ridden in the indoor arena...but so are the other horses. Turnout is almost impossible outdoor in the winter due to our ice problems and our indoor arena doesn't seem to satisfy him like the outdoor turnout does. 



He came to our barn with ulcer meds...my trainer figured it was because they figured he had ulcers due to his personality. Well, clearly the ulcers either never went away or he never had them. I had him taken to the vet before the spring show season to get his hocks done, the chiropractor came etc. I agree with you in that he is unhappy about something in his life. Honestly, I think he just wants to be left alone. 



But...with what you said last...a horse making up ghosts? Yeah. Last bad spook we had a few days ago, we were trotting indoors due to the outdoors being a little soggy. Without warning he leapt and bucked and darted sideways. The pro giving a tuneup ride to an older horse was a little ways behind me walking on her horse and was like 'WOW. Way to stay in the tack! What did he spook at?' needless to say, she's new to our barn. I had to tell her, 'Absolutely nothing. This is how he was all winter. This is normal for him.' I ended up having to get off him after he degraded even further during that ride.


le sigh!


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## elkie09 (Sep 22, 2016)

mmshiro said:


> OP has kind of disappeared on this thread, but if I had to guess, I'd say they are situated at a highly competitive show barn with many amenities for the clients. I did like to read about turn-out -- I don't know how much. I also don't know whether that horse, like many retirees, got a got chunk of time off after the track to decompress before getting started with the after-track training. If that wasn't done carefully, I can see how it is hard to switch for an OTTB from "don't let anyone pass" to "there's someone passing us during warm-up in the arena".
> 
> OTTBs, owing to their former environment, tend to be not "spooky." They've seen crowds, noise, vehicles, ambulances, flags - I'm sure you know more about it than I having actually worked in that environment. So for this horse, I'd actually lean more towards something like "defensive aggressiveness." He just seems miserable with everything that's being done to him.
> 
> ...



I can't say how this horse was treated before he came to us. Based on everything I've seen from him and his strange attitude...he was not treated well. I used to get upset when this horse spooked or got violent towards other horses, because I thought I could fix it. I quickly learned to let him have his episodes within reason, because it kept both of us from becoming crazy emotional and unhinged during a ride. I'm not strong enough to fight a 16hh horse. I do reprimand quickly him if he tries to bite or kick anyone, but if he spooks, I am kind afterwards and pat him on the shoulder and tell him it is okay.


I am not unattached to this gelding. I am fond of him, even though he has nearly sent me through the rafters many times. He has come to tolerate me and even allow me to kiss him on his nose even if he's giving me an ugly look about it. I don't carry a crop with this horse and I never wear spurs for shows (heck, not ever actually). I ride him kindly, with contact and respect that something has made him this way. I just try to stay on the best I can without making things worse for him. 



But, as I said, I am not a professional. I don't have endless money to spend to hope he can be rehabbed into something I can ride with more enjoyment and safety. Board alone in my area is roughly $1000 a month (not including $1000 lease fees on top). I can't justify buying this horse and paying that sort of money every month in hopes that he will come back a happy guy. I think he's had a rough life and I'm sorry for that. That being said...my trainer owns him. I believe she will sell him before winter comes, as I know people have asked after him during shows while I'm on him.


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## Filou (Jan 16, 2014)

For me the price is the biggest factor here. May be different for you. 

I think it depends on if you want to manage and work with this animals or if you want one that's already learned that lesson in life. 

There seems to be a personality thing going on here too. Some animals, people too, are just mean and that doesn't really change as their life goes on. 

I would be ok with getting a spooky horse, because I enjoy that extra work involved. When it's not there, I feel bored. I like the sense of accomplishment of getting my more difficult animal to the level of one who is more complacent. I've noticed that's when you get the personality involved and the horse has the athletic competitive spirit to want to win. 

It was just this horses first year showing, and it doesn't sound like it's a super expensive animal. What were your expectations in starting this? Your trainers?


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

So, he's fine during the summer and at shows, and virtually a different horse in the winter? What changes? Turnout? Exercise? Different feed? Is the horse medicated when you show and not medicated in the winter? Are you POSITIVE the trainer/barn is not drugging him in the show ring? 

This sounds like a very unhappy horse moreso than a spooky horse. He's acting out because he's unhappy, stressed, or in pain. So you need to decide if you're willing to dive into this and figure out what the problem is and how to fix it, or if you want a horse you can just get on and ride.

If you're inexperienced and uncomfortable riding and handling a reactive horse, this is not the animal for you. However, horses like this are also a way of getting a stellar show animal for a fraction of the price of an easy-to-handle horse. Yes, there are top-level animals out there with lovely personalities, but they are not cheap. Most top show horses have their quirks, but the horse you're riding has more than most. It sounds like a professional rider may be better suited to him rather than someone who wants to show once or twice a month.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

I don't buy the whole idea that a horse has to be stalled all winter because there's ice outside. I live in Eastern Canada. We get deep snow, frigid cold, then warm winds from the water which thaw everything out, and freeze it all up again. My horses are turned out 24/7 year round, with full access to stalls. I only shut them in if there is a raging blizzard. I can't even imagine what they would be like if they were shut in all the time. 

You sure you don't want to look around for a facility that turns horses out in the winter? It may look dangerous and scary, but if you let the horses out all the time, they adjust. They make paths. They go slow - and you can help them by providing the best possible footing (a good layer of snow is actually great for a nice canter, and even sheer ice can be remediated with sand). Horses are quit capable of dealing with various footing. Maybe he'd be a much happier and healthier horse? My spooky mare (who actually spooks at things that used to be there, but are not anymore...) is actually much better in the winter than in the summer.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Last winter our turnouts/pastures were a sheet of ice from January to April. The horses did fine.


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

I think it's important they are offered turnout or walks or something. At my old yard if the field was really bad and the staff didn't want to turnout,. because they didn't want the fields totally trashed mostly more than the footing, I would still (when I could get there) take her for 30min handwalks. In all sorts of weather. Torrential rain and howling wind. I'd stick her in a rug, put my own weather gear on and hand walk. Even if it's slow and just to mooch around chewing on things or just hanging out. Something other than just stall>arena turnout>arena ride>stall>arena turnout>arena ride. Typing it out is boring me to death much less live that routine! If he's hard to control and calm on the ground though this might not be viable for you. I don't know how much time you spend at the yard but have you tried other things than just riding? Like maybe dabbling in a bit of liberty or trick training? He might be getting enough physical exercise and not enough mental stimulation. Maybe too smart a horse with too little to do? What about a treat ball? Is there any reason you yourself can't turn him out and supervise for half an hour? I do that with mine in the evening and just read a book. Sometimes though she'll nudge me and ask to accompany her around the field coz she doesn't wanna graze _that part over there_ alone. 

Based of what you say... there is hope for this horse. Would I wanna risk it? Probably not but then again you're probably 10x the rider I am in skill. However I'm not looking to compete and would love the chance to work with improving a horses mental well being- ground up. The turnout thing... I agree in trying somewhere with winter turnout. Even if you turn him out and 15minutes later he's at the gate asking to get back... It's the fact he was offered it. That he wanted to come back in on his own. Being stuck without no choice I think is what can really get them down. I've turned my mare out and she immediately does a 180 and is like sod this, I want back in! I personally also think its REALLY important that when stalled excessively that they are OK with their neighbours, where even possible. Mine gets VERY VERY stressed if she hates her neighbour, it makes her really ugly and miserable and that's for a few days much less weeks on end. But there are a few she's really calm with and likes. Food for thought I hope.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

Well, that explains everything. 

1) I suspect he definitely has ulcers. It only takes 8 hours without food to get ulcers.

If he gorges his food and eats aggressively, what does he do after eating? How many hours does he go between meals?

2) He needs turnout in winter. Months of being locked in a jail cell? How often does he get exercise in the winter? 

3) Does the stable use slow feed hay nets? If not, then I can pretty much guarantee that this horse has ulcers.

Selling him probably is for the best. Hopefully whoever gets him turns him out and treats him for ulcers.

When was the last time he was turned out with other horses? Allowed to interact in a herd environment?

I would find a different stable and trainer. It sounds like they mean well, but are treating the horses like show machines and not addressing their mental health at all. 

I've been to stables like that- some people see nothing wrong with locking show horses in a stall, while the horses are practically pounding on the walls to be let out. 

Constant stalling = food aggression and feuding between neighbouring horses. Even if he is turned out for the summer, months of being locked up in the winter is hugely problematic.

I wouldn't pay more than $2000 purchase price for any horse. Simpler for me to train my own. My best mare who is completely unflappable, I paid $600 for. I figure she's worth 4 times that. 

I know show horses are very expensive and perhaps it would be different if that was my goal. But there are huge problems with how those horses are being treated, from a management perspective. 

Horses were not meant to be locked in stalls for months- no wonder they have mental health issues. Certainly some handle it better than others- I remember one mare who had no vices from being stalled all the time. I felt sorry for her because she just stood there in the same spot, looking depressed, all day, every day.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

I could not agree more with @4horses. 

Also, my daughter's show horse is turned out 24/7 year round and he is winning division championships (granted, these are not high end shows, but still, Equine Canada sanctioned shows). I really can't wrap my head around why some people think show horses have to live in a stall. This barn has its priorities wrong IMHO.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

You'd be nuts living in a 10 x 12 room with no interaction, too-- and humans handle isolation better than horses.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

mmshiro said:


> That's interesting how everyone is focused on "being spooky." That actually wasn't what caught my eye. What caught my eye was "being mean-spirited and aggressive."



I can deal with a little spooky. Boogering at strange objects, balking at something new, teleporting when they see the shadow of their own reins move across the trail (Nooo, Trigger. Is not snake. No, really, is not... ) It's the mean spirited and aggressive part that I won't deal with. That's what will get you hurt. 



I'd have to pass on this horse. All things being equal, if he's a good show horse, but horrible everywhere else because he's spooky and mean-spirited on top of that, I think there's massive potential to get seriously hurt by this horse just doing mundane things, like loading in a trailer.


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## LarsonGr1 (Oct 8, 2018)

Call me a wishful thinker, but I don't believe that any horse is "beyond help", for lack of better terms. The biggest question is if he/she is right for you right now. It doesn't sound like he is. If you are convinced that you'd like to keep him, there needs to be some serious digging into why he's so reactive and unpredictable. Find a way for him to "think" and use his brain vs. trying to run it out of him. In the natural horsemanship world, I try to dig into the horse's personality and such to try and find out the "why". Not that this helps a whole lot, just something to think about.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

If you have to write the post then clearly that is your answer. From the information given it sounds like this is absolutely a human made issue and not the horses issue. If you're not willing to change things for his sake then suggest they sell him and someone who is a better home can come along.

I worked at a barn when the horses were in anytime it was cold, windy, cloudy, 1% chance of rain, etc. In the winter they were in for weeks on end, then would get a few hours turnout in triple layered blankets then back in (almost worse then just leaving them in?) It was borderline abuse. Riding those horses was like taking Cerberus for a walk. The part that made me ANGRY was that is wasn't their fault at all. Luckily no one was hurt during my time there but it was seriously a ticking time bomb. Plus the horse who was explosive anyways (but super sweet luckily) would LITERALLY explode about 3 times a minute. I've been in the same situation at other barns just not as extreme.

It is by FAR in this horses best interest to rehome him. If you do want to purchase him I would move him asap and start ulcer treatment as well as keeping him on a preventative long term. This isn't about whether this is the right match for you this is about the horses well being.

I am in New England. I understand winter weather, I also know keeping them in 24/7 is wrong. Winter DOES mean more indoor time in many climates, it's not an excuse to lock them in a tiny pen and leave them there. I understand that this is how your barn does things and you don't get a say in it, but it also offers a very obvious explanation for this horses behavior, he is literally being driven insane.

I would pass, it doesn't sound like the right match (again, that you're even asking this) and it sure sounds like the horse needs to be in a very different situation for his wellbeing. If you do decide to go through, please follow through with what is best for him he's very clearly trying to tell you something. You'll have a different horse if you do and will likely do even better showing.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

I would not *own* one, but I sure would show one like that. 

I played (polo) on a horse that spooked at so many things. Getting on and off the field was a trial. But once the play started she was all business and knew the game better than me! Playing her was a treat.

You've gotten good suggestions from everyone else. I agree it's worth looking into if you really gel with this horse.


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## BeckyFletcher (Apr 18, 2019)

Please don’t take this as a thread highjack. How do you that mention having an overly spooky horse or one that crow hops or bucks not get worried about getting on every time? I’m green and saw my horse turn into a bronc the first time I finally watched him being worked (back/chiro issue now fixed) and then the time he took off with me over an entire crop field. I’m currently working through getting over that. I literally have him hand walked the first few minutes I’m on him. And he’s been a saint to me since but it’s omly been a few rides so far. Just tonight a horse that shouldn’t be ridden because of lameness was being ridden and in turn reared and bucked just after I got off my trainers leadline. Mine just had one medium spook and settled right down. Other horse kept acting up though and I got so nervous I had to get off until they removed other horse from arena. I’m also an 85lb 44 year old. Not that that has much to do with it but it actually does in some instances.


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## AuG (Aug 18, 2019)

It sounds like you are capable of handling this horse at it worst. If you were to purchase it and move it to a more suitable environment, imagine what it could be at its best!

I am not on board with horses being stabled 24/7. Even the racing stables I have worked at refuse to do that - hot feed, no turnout, ya just sitting on a timebomb! Granted I do not know what your winters are like, but it sounds like this horses needs that turnout to remain happy. Or at least a major feed adjustment over the lockdown times (slow feed hay nets are a great suggestion). More pasture time would reduce its ulcer stress and keep the horse sound in mind and body.

Goodluck, whatever you choose. It is a gamble, but it may well pay off.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

SilverMaple said:


> You'd be nuts living in a 10 x 12 room with no interaction, too-- and humans handle isolation better than horses.



I missed that part. That does explain so much.


The horse has been living in what amounts to Hell for a horse - solitary confinement indoors, most of the time.


I feel sorry for horses that have to live like this. No wonder so many have emotional and mental issues and barn vices.


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

Where I live, if horses couldn't have winter turnout, they'd be inside for quite literally half the year.

Some horses in my climate live outside ALL WINTER and do just fine. They adapt. And I'm in a place where temperatures regularly hit -20 (celsius), and can drop to -40 at times. 

I did feeding and turnout for four horses the last two winters, and their paddock was on a -- gasp! -- HILL! There were only a couple of days all winter that we didn't turn them out, and that was when the ground was literally glare ice and/or we had freezing rain. They all did fine. No injuries.

Sure, you can keep a horse in a stall all the time, but is the (slightly?) reduced risk worth it? And, heck, they're going to find ways to hurt themselves in there too.


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## Hankster (Aug 27, 2019)

With the number of "good" horses available out there, why would you even consider risking your own neck, on a known to be "unpredictable" possibly dangerous one? 
PASS.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

elkie09 said:


> I can't say how this horse was treated before he came to us. Based on everything I've seen from him and his strange attitude...he was not treated well. I used to get upset when this horse spooked or got violent towards other horses, because I thought I could fix it. I quickly learned to let him have his episodes within reason, because it kept both of us from becoming crazy emotional and unhinged during a ride. I'm not strong enough to fight a 16hh horse. I do reprimand quickly him if he tries to bite or kick anyone, but if he spooks, I am kind afterwards and pat him on the shoulder and tell him it is okay.
> .


BIG mistake, ignore his spook by all means but do not praise him or tell him it is OK because it isn't!

Some horses will spook just tomget a reaction from the rider, by making a fuss they are getting what they want - as would whacking them though that could make them very resentful 

Ignoring but correcting by making them turn back against the way they have spooked, doesn't provoke an adverse reaction nor reward the unwanted behaviour. 

I use to rode a horse that spooked at his own shadow and could spin so fast he would nearly disappear up his own backside. I would always correct but generally ignore, certainly never getting annoyed or angry. He never totally stopped but certainly wasn't anywhere near as reactive.


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