# Peculiar Green Horse Tempermant Starting Difficulty



## Jipner16 (Apr 30, 2018)

So this is just a long shot, but I am hoping for some feedback and new perspectives to help me get a better idea of how to approach this horse that one of my clients has asked me to look at. I am not a super experienced trainer but I learned from the best and I believe that I am fairly capable and this horse has confuzzled me. 

So this horse is a purebred 4 year old Quarter horse Filly that has been at the same place since she was 1 and they have been working with her to halter break her. I have only worked with these people and this horse so going off of client info and what the horse has been showing and both stories line up. The peculiar part about this filly is her temperament. She is not afraid of people because she is fine with people being near her and coming up and petting her especially if it is the owner. There are no signs of fear or tenseness in those circumstances. She is really hard to catch and had to be herded into the round pen for me to work with her, sooooo that spoke a bunch that in three years the owner had never been able to properly halter train her. As I started working her I was told that she will round pen herself until she is tired and just shuts down. As if she knows what she has to do to get through a session and for it to end. So maybe I let that bias me with my overall demeanor to the horse, but I wanted to do the usual working off of the concepts of join-up to start out and see where she was at. The confusing part about it is that she would not respond at all to pressure and release. I would ask for her attention when she got distracted, ask for a transition change, or ask for her to not stop at the gate (she was looking for escape) but she move out of the pressure and just seem to shut down. As if three seconds after a correction she forgot all about it and returned to this emotionless horse that is really hard to read. I know it is hard to explain or imagine, but I am doing my best here. You know when you try and read the posture and attitude of a donkey or mule and they are just steely eyed, mid-range between tense and relaxed, and comfortable with you but keep you at a distance? That is how it seems to be with this filly, Dakota. 

This really come out when you are trying to go through the process of halter training. I will assume everyone knows the general methodology. She would turn in and face me and stand still expressionless on my approach but then completely spring away as soon as I did something she didn't like. So you know make her run hard for a bit, but there was no remorse or change with that correction. I tried being more forceful and taking it slower and trying to gain her trust. I took 5-10 minutes of just scratching and petting to get the lead rope over her neck, but then again she would spring away bolting, then turn around face and walk back towards you. It was not a fearful behavior because she did not show any of the signs of fear. I hope I don't have to describe them all, just trust me. 

At some point the owner went in and used the little trust that they had with her to halter her and then I tried to see what she would do with ground work on a lead rope and she did quite well. Disengaging hind quarters, respecting space, leading at the shoulder although tough when in the presence of a unwanted tarp nearby. But again any little correction I would make she would either respond for a second and then go back to her emotionless self or back up head high in "fear." She would tense up over me barely brushing the long hairs on her side just after 10 minutes of me petting and working with asking her to shift weight, pick up legs, move the front end over. So the only consistency in her was that there was none. She could act like a 1 year old foal or like a halter broke horse ready to move on to the next thing. I gave her a break for a couple hours and then tried to go back and see if we could make any more headway or at least solidify the little progress there was here and there, but no. Everything has to be on her terms and when I correct her and show that I am in charge she shuts down. If she would react skittishly all the time I can work with that or if she would react aggressively I can work with that because it can be corrected, but she is here in the middle and continually shuts down any method I use of which I used every tool in my toolbox. So there was the common thread of self-preservation through it all and that she would only do something if she knew that it would let her get through the exercise to be done. I hope this gives enough information and let me know what you think. If I had to go back I would ask the owner to leave and start from ground zero disregarding any information from before and see where it goes. Justin Reimer - Rookie Horse Trainer trying to make his way MB, Canada


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## ThoroughbredBug (Jan 18, 2017)

Subbing!


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## JoBlueQuarter (Jan 20, 2017)

Okay, so take this with a grain of salt as I'm no expert, but it sounds to me like she's playing a game when you're trying to catch her. You walk up to her, she runs away. A nice game of tag. From what I can gather she's been spoiled by her owners - they seem to let her get away with way too much. _Everything_ is on her terms, which is... not OK. Her behaviour suggests inconsistency in her normal life - she doesn't seem quite sure what to expect, which could be a reason for her 'shutting down'.

Also, the owners have been too long in finding a trainer, IMO; they've had Dakota for, what, three years (?) and you can't even walk up to her if she doesn't feel like it, let alone halter her.

I've never worked with a horse like this so I really can't give any advice on fixing the problem but I'm sure more experienced members on this forum will offer some help.


And, btw, *welcome to the forum*!


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

I think you hit the nail on the head when you said there is a common thread of self preservation with the horse.

In my opinion your description sounds like a reactive, sensitive, high energy horse. Her energy level may be high enough that having her move or work is no correction, but might instead be a release for her. So you may think you are correcting behaviors but instead are rewarding them.

My approach would be to stop putting pressure on the horse, stop round penning, and instead just work on trust so she does not feel the need to preserve her safety. I'd introduce everything like haltering and leading with slow movements, gently and softly and avoid correcting mistakes. Instead, I'd ignore them and reward the right response by taking myself away from her space for a minute, letting her think and rest, giving a treat or a soothing voice and pat.

If you want to round pen again, I wouldn't do it with so much pressure and release. Instead, I'd work on getting the horse to move with relaxation and the appearance of accepting me in her space. I'd remove the pressure until it appeared she was not shut down but was relaxed enough to begin thinking. For some horses the level of pressure they can tolerate is very small, and has to be built up gradually. Otherwise they can't think and focus well enough to learn.

Her springing away bolting in my mind is because she is worried about a correction, and what you see as inconsistency is just her being afraid and reactive. Until she has trust that you won't startle her or scare her, she will be on edge waiting for sudden moves. Her shutting down when you correct her is not a domination tactic or trying to make things "on her terms," but rather is just a sign that she needs a far, far softer correction. For some very sensitive horses a harsh voice is even over the top, and just a quiet "no" is what you have to start with to not overface them and cause emotion or fear.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I'd take this horse out for lengthy ponying sessions. I can't say why, but I think that would help.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Sounds to me like you can add to spoiled by the owner over worked in the round pen and incorrectly at that. I agree with staying out of the pen and pony her, work on the ground and build your relationship in spaces that were not used by the owner.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

I love everything that's been said so far; would like to add that I was puzzled that this horse worked on more "advanced" maneuvers when she can't even be caught and haltered reliably. So I am with you when you, towards the end of the original post, mentioned that you'd start her from scratch. 

Making her do that one thing, and do it well, will allow you to find out what her currency is. It'll allow you to apply the right kind of pressure and reward (as opposed to just release) consistently, showing her what is expected of her and have there be something in it for her. I'd open up the space and work with her at liberty in an arena-sized enclosure instead of just the round pen. It is very difficult to take off pressure when you are in each other's face like that. She may tell you more about what's going on in her mind with more room to express herself. But the main thing is not to progress too quickly as it compounds her confusion.

If one day she can be haltered and another day she can't, she's either confused or mentally impaired. I'd first work on the assumption that you haven't found out yet how to make it worth her while to get haltered.

Oh, and I would surmise that, for this horse, long drill sessions would be deadly (to her mind). Short session, one thing at a time, ending with a reward (something that she considers a reward), and then a break. Before moving on to the next thing, she must show that she has mastered the previous skill - for you, and for her owners. You cannot move on to riding her when, as it currently stands, she may stop sometimes and other times she won't.

By the way, how does she behave when you just watch her with other horses? Is there anything remarkable or different in her demeanor?


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## Boo Walker (Jul 25, 2012)

I'd definitely start over. You know her weaknesses so you can tailor your program to help build her confidence. When you see her begin to shut down, stop what you're doing and change tactics. At that point she may get more benefit from just standing for a few minutes while you rub her down with your hands. A few "good girls" thrown in there and a quiet time out may be enough to re-engage her again. In time you'll find the right mix of pressure and time out for her. I think the bigger challenge will be showing the owners a different way to interact with their sensitive horse.


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## Fimargue (Jun 19, 2015)

Good example of why not everyone should have baby horses... Waiting 4 years to have the job, that should be done when they are under 6 months old, done. 

I have worked with several babies that were hard to catch - bad management from the owner's part as they were products of mares who themselves had damaged relationships with humans. 

Everything starts with trust that builds up from pleasant interactions. You have to find what motivates her in the being caught. What SHE gets from it, as obviously she doesn't find it's satisfactory enough to hang out with the human. Why should she hang out with the human? Time to bribe. When you do catch her, bring her to a bucket. Then do a walk with her and bring her back to her place. Little by little you show that there is something for her in being caught, and that human company can be nice. Then you add some distance to the walks, nothing strengthens the bond more than facing challenges together.

Cannot treat her like a ready to be started 4 year old when the base work of a one, two and three year old hasn't been done.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Do you use cookies? It might be useful in the beginning to give cookies as a reward, vs physical corrections. Not usually my go to, but for a reactive, distrustful horse it may help. It has the added benefit of keeping their jaw mobile and they won't be as tense. 

I would also say stay out of the round pen, or at least don't join up or anything. She not listening and its not a productive space for her.


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

I would do a lot of approach and retreat with her. She needs to learn trust first and then maneuvers later. Running a horse mindlessly around a round pen waiting for that miraculous "join up" moment gets you no where if the horse has checked out mentally and begins to equate the round pen and people with endless tiring work.


I think you have hit it on the head when you say start from scratch. And I would say start from scratch like you are working with a month old colt. Lots of tiny work sessions 15 or 20 min long. Lots of hands on - brushing, massaging and communicating with this horse in a calm and relaxed manner. Then move up to asking for release of pressure with the ropes. it sounds like the round pen is really the last place this horse needs to be.

Excited to follow your progress!


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## Jipner16 (Apr 30, 2018)

Ok yal have given me a lot to think about, at this point I am just experimenting with a traveling trainer business that I come to the owners farm and work there so that I can allow them to see what is going on and educate them about how they should be handling their horses to keep the training going instead of have backward steps. Until now I have had quite a bit of success but this was the first younger horse that they wanted me to "start." So the thing is that I don't have daily contact with this horse to build that trust. Mind you I also have never worked with a horse that wasn't halter broken, so I went in to the first session with a lot of assumptions. I agree with what you talk about in saying that she is skittish and does not trust, but I am just telling you that the signals she gives off are just the weirdest I have ever seen. So there is the part where she does not progress well and things don't work the "normal" way, but more for me it is the lack of reaction out of her. You guys are saying look for her to relax or to do something well and that is really hard because she shows so little. I would agree that getting out of the round pen would be good. I have a client to go work with so I will write more later as I mull over what was said. So yeah I might not want to tackle this horse unless I had better access to her rather than a 30 min drive or I just charge for daily work and gas.  I also only have a week in this area before moving for the summer for work, so I may not have as much time with her as I would like.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Jipner16 said:


> *I also only have a week* in this area before moving for the summer for work, so I may not have as much time with her as I would like.


mg:

Yeah, those are not the time scales this horse needs! What were the owner's expectations of you? And what did you anticipate, and promise, you'd achieve with a one-week time limit?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Horses that shut down emotionally are the hardest to work with. This from my trainer. 
People approach this with the idea, "well, we need to wake her up!". So, they get a lot of pressure going on the horse, in the round pen, to wake them up. That can work, for some horses, like ones that are just sulled up because they have learned it gets them out of work.

But, some horses are so deeply shut down that they can be very dangerous individuals because one doesn't really know what 'wakes them up', and when or if it happens, it can be quite explosive. Again, a trainer might approach that with, "well, if they have it inside of them, and it could explode out there, I'll create a situation where it DOES come out, and teach the horse that we can deal with that'.

Also, a reasonable approach.

But, a hrose that is like this, inconsistent , might have inconsistent reactions to that. Basically, in any training, we are trying to give the hrose a 'reason' to do something. That 'reason' can be our whip, or our pressure. That can be enough and the hrose learns that avoiding those things brings about freedom for it. We teach the horse the pathway to freedom.

Some horses just need to feel that there is a 'purpose' to moving. For example, horses in the arena who just hate to work, hate jumping, etc . . take them out on the trail and they move forward with gusto, jumping logs and moving out with enthusiasum. They feel a forward draw, a 'purpose' to going forwad.

Maybe this horse is needing something that creates a feeling up 'purpose'. That can be clicker training, working over ground poles, or, things like ponying. Just get her moving and committed to it, for her own sake.
I know people say that ponying a hrose is just pulling it around. But, they hrose rapidly finds it's own freedom without the rider applying a lot of 'push' to it. That is why it can be such a valuable tool in horse training. 

Tom and Bill Dorrance, Ray Hunt , Buck Branaman all used ponying in the round pen as a trainging exersize.

Could I do this? I would be lying if I said I had. but, I'm throwing it out there as an idea for you, who, as a paid trainer, I assume has done.


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## Hawkvaly (Apr 30, 2018)

*Re: Peculiar Green horse*

I've seen many horses like this before. I have one here right now, who just shut right down to the point she doesn't even want to be around people. It's like they pull the blinds down. In my experience, they've been "over-processed" and sick of being chased in the round pen and all the other stuff that goes with "chasing" from behind (among other things). There is a lot more to this than a written reply can provide. These horses are usually victims of poor timing and well-meaning owners. Is it possible to send vids? I could take a look and see if I can give you some ideas. Terri in Alberta.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

This horse is a prime example of what incorrect round penning work will produce. She sounds exactly like a horse that has learned that running in circles in the pen is what people want of her, and I would suspect she has spent a lot of time being chased in circles by someone without a clue, waiting for her to 'lower her head' or 'ask to come in' and when she offered the signals they missed them and hence she's learned to just tune out, run in circles, and anytime something worries her, run some more. Whether the owner is telling you she's been worked or not, she's spent a lot of time in a pen running around the edge, I guarantee it. Most likely, on more than one occasion, they tried to run her around until she was tired to get her caught, and all she's learned is to run and shut out people. 

Get her out of a round pen and start over, being very, very careful to watch her for the slightest bit of 'try' and reward it. If she looks at you, step back and release. If she ****** her ears at you, step back. Lots of approach and retreat. When you raise the halter and she stiffens, stop and step away, then try again. This type of horse has to relearn that people are listening to her and that she always has a choice. They come around, but it takes awhile.


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## Jipner16 (Apr 30, 2018)

Ok so no I have the opposite problem as before, I almost have too much information. I let the owner take a look at the forum post to see what she thinks. At this point it has been too long since I was with her last the details are getting fuzzy in my mind already about specifics. The main reason for the lack of work in those years was a few bad series of events such as a really wet summer so that there was not a good footing to work with her anywhere. It can get really bad for a long time around here with mud. I agree about starting over, but I am unsure of the differing opinions on the root of her reaction and emotions. I agree that there is a deep mistrust there which makes everything hard. When you think she has reacted a certain way she proves you wrong by going back on her original reaction. So I can't add much more but I will let you all know if I get out there again. They did not expect me to do anything in a week, just more wanted my opinion and to see if some headway could be started to show some hope.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

What about clicker training? The first thing I like to teach a horse is too back up, then reward. You do not reward pushy behavior but reward retreat in a controlled manner. The same with the halter. If you want to get a halter on, offer a cookie. The end result is a horse that practically pushes his head into the halter or bridle.

I don't see shutdown. I see confusion and uncertainty. The horse is inconsistent because she does not understand what you want. You are the alien speaking jibberish to her. Define your goals. Is today's goal to get the halter on or to move her feet in the round pen?


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## Jipner16 (Apr 30, 2018)

At this point we will see where it goes and if I go out again I will attempt to document it better.


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## Luv2Train81 (Jun 17, 2014)

I agree with everybody. I got the same impression immediately that she is one of those horses that hasn't been started right. Too much pressure, wrongly applied, hates work (because she probably has never been taken out to simply just be groomed and taken for walks to let her graze but instead just worked hard. No naturally she doesn't want to be there. Cuz all of it is bad. Take a step away from "natural horsemanship" which btw isn't always as pretty as it sounds. Want an eye opener go read up about aversion and learned helplessness in natural horsemanship training. Read and think about it. As trainer you can't just follow one method with every horse. They are all individuals and you need to bring a big bag of tricks with you in order to be successful. 
My suggestion for a case like her is clicker training. Clicker training is unlike NH not based on negative pressure and reinforcement. If the only release you'd get is by not being harassed, pushed, poked and nagged until you end up just giving in JUST BECAUSE THERES NO OTHER WAY OUT OF IT, you would become emotionally numb Too. There's nothing positive in it for her. No freedom of choice. At liberty you let the horse decide if it wants to stay or leave and you don't punish, Correct or nag. You offer them an incentive. That means that of they want to be with you, they will because THEY want to.main reason why is because they associate you with something positive EVERY TIME. Every smallest step into the right direction is rewarded, wrong behavior is ignored. I guarantee you that this filly will come out of her shell this much quicker if you try it. she will also be very focused on you and only you. She will learn ten times faster than normal. And she will become excited for work. I've worked with a lot of horses like her. They are all the same way. They are such a mix between hating work, emotional shutdown, unresponsive, stressed out, then become pushy or dangerous or totally work sour. Try it out. See what happens.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Every single sign I see from your posts is of a shut down, fearful horse. Whether she shows it or not, she's terrified. I've had one like this - I thought she was fine because I wasn't seeing any of the classic signs of fear. NOPE. Not even CLOSE to fine.

So what I did was, I let her live in the round pen for a while. I was lucky enough to live on the farm, so I could go out 5, 6, 7, 10 times a day and work with her in short sessions. This is PERFECT for the fearful young horse as you don't have to seek real progress in any one session! You go in, you touch the horse, you leave. Rinse and repeat. As many times over as it takes for the horse to accept you touching her. Don't leave until she lets you touch her. Once you can reliably walk up and touch her without her trying to get away from you, you can move on to doing so with a rope or a halter in your hand. Then you move on to touching her WITH the halter. Then you move on to actually haltering her. Once you can reliably halter her - and ONLY then - you move on to other things. Yielding to pressure and so on.

What I do with a fearful horse to GET to the point of being able to touch her is this:
Walk into the pen.
Stand in the middle.
If horse looks at me, I back away. If horse doesn't look at me, I step forward. If horse tries to flee, I follow (slowly! and NEVER chasing/hunting/pushing for the run). 
Gradually, the horse learns that looking at me makes me go away a little bit, and running gets them nowhere. And standing still, well, I go closer. But is that really so bad? Hmmmm. 
Eventually I get to the point of being able to walk close to the horse before it turns and looks at me and I back away... or just stop. And at that point, I start to only back away if the horse thinks about coming TOWARDS me. It's suddenly a game of very slow tag and the HORSE is 'it'. 
Sooner or later the HORSE learns to catch ME. And once they do, it's treat, scratch, or break time (depending on what the individual horse values). 
Soon I have a horse that will come up to me and follow me around with no halter. And from there, halter breaking becomes quite easy.


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

OK I think this thread is amazing. I actually subbed to Warwick Schiller before I got a horse because I was super interested in different trainer approaches. I have come across shut down animals of different species but not horses. This is the first thread I have actually read about one here, for me! He has an entire section regarding shutdown horses, primarily with mustangs that are overloaded. I remember with one horse that was similar to yours but would also never lie down to sleep, with a few sessions that horse ended up falling asleep in clinic surrounded by people. It looked liked it was safe and just collapsed from years of stress! And shut down horses that would do all the groundwork correctly, even ridden work at a high level, but are genuinely "not here" and just going through the motions. Something something about focus work. Or maybe like people here say Dakota just needs consistency and weeks down the line will realise the world isn't such a bad place.

I can't advise you and I cannot say what this is but if it is the case I highly recommend at researching some of his stuff up anyway!


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

^ Warwick's methods worked wonders for my Paso, and are also helping a friend with a young mare learn to 'read' her horse. Her mare is a sweetheart, but she's had some bad experiences and mentally checks out when you work with her. She's coming around nicely now that she is realizing she is allowed to communicate, too, and people will listen to her. She's really blossoming.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Agree with all those that advise getting her out of the round pen and essentially starting over to build trust. Have seen this before with folks that have been watching the NH gurus but have no real hands on experience. They work the poor horses in the round pen so much and without any real understanding of a horse causing the horse to just shut down and give up. Inconsistency caused by inexperience. 

This horse is going to take a lot of time to fix and you only have a week in the area. Best to find an empathetic, experienced trainer that they can send the horse to for a complete restart. The different environment should help the horse to wake up too. Personally I would not even attempt to work with this horse at all in it's current home. 

Ponying as @tinyliny suggested should benefit this horse greatly as the horse will have another horse to look to for guidance instead of confusing humans.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

OP, does this photo look familiar? The body language of the horse, I mean - ignore me completely :lol:

This is that shut down horse I was talking about earlier. NO classical fear response signs. No high head, rolling eyes, not even any real attempts to flee... but see how her weight is back over her hind end, her ears are on me, her tail is clamped, and her mouth is tight? (might be hard to see the mouth in this pic)


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hi & welcome,

Have only read your initial post Jipner... Part of it emphasises what I think is the problem with the 'join up' recipe type approach.



Jipner16 said:


> She is really hard to catch and had to be herded into the round pen for me to work with her,


So sounds like she IS indeed nervous(or at least very cynical) of people & what they want of her. First thing I'd do is use 'approach & retreat' & rewards to teach her I was a Good Thing and being close to me, and the halter were Good Things. 


> I was told that she will round pen herself until she is tired and just shuts down.


Sounds like she has been 'round penned' without understanding/consideration & now the whole situation is associated with Bad Stuff & Wrong answers. She's just reacting off associated emotions. I would not try to 'round pen' a horse like that. 


> but she move out of the pressure and just seem to shut down.


Yep, great you recognise if she is 'shut down', glassy eyed, not just 'quiet'. if a horse doesn't understand & gets too worried, they can indeed just 'shut down' mentally, get very quiet & still. When pressure is continually applied to a horse in this state, it is often when you get "she was fine, quiet, accepting, then suddenly, out of the blue, without reason she just blew up! " Because the horse is shut down shut down shut down... Until she finally can't take any more & has to panic. 



> and stand still expressionless on my approach but then completely spring away as soon as I did something she didn't like. So you know make her run hard for a bit, but there was no remorse


Of course there's no remorse - what's she got to be remorseful of? What do you think youre teaching her by making her run hard whenever she's feeling too *pressured* to stay at your approach? That it might be scary & bad to let you approach, but life with humans can get a whole lot worse? Is this what you want her to learn? 

Instead I would use 'approach & retreat' tactics to take the pressure off when she is standing there, being Good. Teach her allowing you to approach is not a Bad Thing after all. You retreat before she feels the need. Rinse & repeat. Then when you get close enough, give her a treat before you walk away. Replace the worry with Good emotions/associations. 

Remember that *removing* any 'pressure' is what teaches them what works. And you don't have to apply a lot when it is deemed necessary, you don't have to make her run, let alone hard or long, just do enough to make it uncomfortable for her when she is moving away from you(doing The Wrong Thing **but comfortable & no stress when she stops. You are continuing to pressure her(albeit not making her run) when she's standing, doing Right.


> took 5-10 minutes of just scratching and petting to get the lead rope over her neck, but then again she would spring away


So that just sounds like too much. Spend 5 minutes scratching & petting(**if she actively enjoys it - this may well be 'pressure' too) then walk away. Rinse & repeat. Rub her with the rope. Walk away. Etc. Don't try to do everything at once. 



> halter her and then I tried to see what she would do with ground work on a lead rope and she did quite well. ... But again any little correction I would make she would either respond for a second and then go back to her emotionless self or back up head high in "fear." She would tense up over me barely brushing the long hairs on her side just after 10 minutes of me petting


So as said, given that she's nervous/skeptical about being close to you/caught by you at all, I'd want to get her over that first, before asking her for any 'work'. 

It sounds like she is quite afraid of 'correction' because she doesn't understand it & maybe from previous handling associations too. And doing long sessions when she is on edge... even if she's 'doing well' but a bit worried, is 'tipping her over the edge' & essentially every time this happens, her fears are being further confirmed. She may only be a little nervous about something(sounds here like she doesn't actively enjoy being 'petted', is only tolerating it), but the longer she puts up with it, the more edgy she will become, until she can't cope any more. 

Think of stress as a bucket under a leaky roof; Might be a very small leak only one drip at a time. But eventually, if the bucket isn't emptied, it will still overflow. Same as the metaphor of the straw that broke the camel - one little straw may be very minor, but all added together... So you need to ensure that even with small stressors, you make sessions very short. Quit well before she feels the need to get out of there, react. Then she will gradually learn that she can tolerate these minor things & she doesn't have to get defensive. **And she will learn that you/people are going to look out for her & be considerate of how she feels & help her feel safe!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Jipner16 said:


> Ok yal have given me a lot to think about, at this point I am just experimenting with a traveling trainer business that I come to the owners farm and work there so that I can allow them to see what is going on and educate them about how they should be handling their horses to keep the training going instead of have backward steps. Until now I have had quite a bit of success but this was the first younger horse that they wanted me to "start." So the thing is that I don't have daily contact with this horse to build that trust. Mind you I also have never worked with a horse that wasn't halter broken, so I went in to the first session with a lot of assumptions.


It sounds to me like you have a great attitude for the job, but respectfully, just not enough experience, not quite enough understanding of equine behaviour & principles of learning/training, for this to be a situation you should (yet) ask people to pay you for. If you're wanting to do this as a business, stick to 'working' for people with horses that are basically started at least - or whatever you're confident with - and 'practice' with babies/totally uneducated horses for nothing.



> where she does not progress well and things don't work the "normal" way, but more for me it is the lack of reaction out of her. You guys are saying look for her to relax or to do something well and that is really hard because she shows so little.


So if she can give you so little, ensure you don't ask her for more than you think she can give you. Sounds like quite normal behaviour for a spoiled/cynical/nervous horse to me. Just some get reactive, some get pushy, and some get 'quietly' edgy...



> So yeah I might not want to tackle this horse unless I had better access to her rather than a 30 min drive or I just charge for daily work and gas.  I also only have a week in this area before moving for the summer for work





> Then I'd honestly tell them you aren't the person this horse needs - little point in spending only a week.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

tinyliny said:


> Horses that shut down emotionally are the hardest to work with. This from my trainer.
> People approach this with the idea, "well, we need to wake her up!". So, they get a lot of pressure going on the horse, in the round pen, to wake them up.


Yes, when people don't have a good understanding. And people often(including myself previously... thankfully had someone to point it out to me before things really escallated) don't recognise that the horse is 'quiet' in fear/shut down. They assume that they're quietly accepting, so therefore ready to go on to the next 'stage', accept more pressure, etc.

But IME these are also among the most satisfying horses to work with, if you can work in a considerate & respectFUL way & work out how to 'wake them up' to become confident & understanding of humans & our 'games'.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Kalraii said:


> OK I think this thread is amazing. I actually subbed to Warwick Schiller ...He has an entire section regarding shutdown horses, primarily with mustangs that are overloaded.


I must have a good look. Haven't seen a great deal of WS but what I have, I really liked. In complete contrast to an 'NH guru' who shall remain nameless, who teaches how to push a horse in a round pen... and push, and push some more, until they 'submit'. I've seen him push a wild(as in truly, only just caught) brumby to the point of trying to run thru steel panels & not be concerned, just keep pushing, and I've heard him preach 'the more you frighten him, the quieter & more accepting they become'. Obviously he doesn't believe in 'shut down'... just knows how to create it :-(


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## Hawkvaly (Apr 30, 2018)

loosie said:


> I must have a good look. Haven't seen a great deal of WS but what I have, I really liked. In complete contrast to an 'NH guru' who shall remain nameless, who teaches how to push a horse in a round pen... and push, and push some more, until they 'submit'. I've seen him push a wild(as in truly, only just caught) brumby to the point of trying to run thru steel panels & not be concerned, just keep pushing, and I've heard him preach 'the more you frighten him, the quieter & more accepting they become'. Obviously he doesn't believe in 'shut down'... just knows how to create it :-(


I agree with your comment. All this "natural" stuff has created no end of horses with problems. Warwick Schiller is the least bad of the worst. At least he seems as though he actually likes horses, unlike many I've seen over the years. 

Horses have been pressured and pressured and pressured and scaring horses is the antithesis of what schooling used to be about. This phenomenon was *not* what this philosophy was originally about. I've watched this evolve since the mid-70's. I learned from the "originals", so I have some insight and basis of understanding about where some of this stuff started and how it's ended up. Ray and Tom both failed to explain some of the words and terms and how it all might fit with riding. Riding was never the focus. 

In order to sell, most had to develop some formula. As far as "communication", ironically it has actually taught people to focus on the "technique" rather than the needs of a particular horse, assuming they *must* do a, b, c, for the horse to learn X. But to what end? The idea of a continuum of empathic training with consistency and thought where one thing fits with the next to achieve a particular goal is long gone in this world at least. There is a reason that traditional horsemanship and riding is still in riding schools in Europe, though I'm not even questioning some of those because this NH philosophy has become ubiquitous.

I've almost completely eliminated certain "techniques" because they ended up being counter-productive, created horses who tended to shut down or who were so suspicious they could hardly stand next to a person. I've seen lots of horses learn to buck and to become resentful. Now, there are some of these NH "trainers" who are teaching people the "rein snatch". So a horse thinks his head is going to be taken around (which in and of itself has nothing to do with straightness, forward and collection) and then there is a sudden, sharp jerk of the rein. Apparently, according to the theory given by one of these "experts", it's pulling hard enough to scare a horse so as to prepare it to be pulled. Ludicrous and how far this "philosophy" is away from what it was originally about. Like anything, we've come full-circle. 

Sorry to be so long-winded. Just some things to think about from my experiences and observations.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Hawkvaly said:


> I agree with your comment. All this "natural" stuff has created no end of horses with problems. Warwick Schiller is the least bad of the worst. At least he seems as though he actually likes horses, unlike many I've seen over the years.
> 
> Horses have been pressured and pressured and pressured and scaring horses is the antithesis of what schooling used to be about. This phenomenon was *not* what this philosophy was originally about. I've watched this evolve since the mid-70's. I learned from the "originals", so I have some insight and basis of understanding about where some of this stuff started and how it's ended up. Ray and Tom both failed to explain some of the words and terms and how it all might fit with riding. Riding was never the focus.
> 
> ...



I'd be curious to know what you've 'elimintated' and why.

I've never heard of a trainer who said to give a short , sharp jerk to prepare the horse to be pulled on. Not saying that there ISNT" such a trainer, but I've never heard of such. 

I'd be curious to see this so-called technique, in video form.


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## Hawkvaly (Apr 30, 2018)

Hi;

I have been around so long, I know there is always skepticism when one tries to discuss "natural" horsemanship (there were many who took a few things from either one or both Ray Hunt and Tom Dorrance and marketed it). As a result, there have been some things that came about that were never intended. We have come full circle back to the days when "trainers" are being overly-aggressive with horses.

In any event, I quit "pulling" the head around years ago and quit "disengaging" the hindquarters. I also quit that "backing". I quit (mostly) with the round pen and only use it in particular circumstances. I've *never* laid a horse down because I never had a need to (there should be very few horses that would "need" to be laid down). I quit search for the "soft feel". Riding was never the focus at these clinics and not many actually learned to ride well. (That was confirmed in a conversation with Tom's widow, Margaret and a friend of min). 

The "trainer" is Gerry Cox. He took the video down because there were more than one of use raised such a fuss about it, however, I did download it. In all the back and forth, Mr. Cox referred to "at least 80 trainers and horseman" that went to his ranch/farm/facilities to learn how to do this. He was quite aggressive and misogynistic in his comments and just hated to believe that perhaps a woman had learned from Ray or Tom. (My best friend was the one who encouraged Ray and Tom to start doing these clinics and took photos for Ray's first book). Here is the link: 




Hope you find some of these comments helpful or at least interesting.


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## Hawkvaly (Apr 30, 2018)

TinyLiny

You'd asked me why I quit using these techniques, I failed to mention in my response that my reasons for doing such were outlined in my first comment where I mention Warwick Schiller.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

h m m . . . . that was interesting. in the bizarre and disturbing sense.


Ray and Tom did most of their work , originally, working with 'troubled' horses, so some of the things they did might not work so well on just plain trained horses, and not in the hands of folks who don't know the difference.


The best you can do is model the behavior you would like to see replicated in horse work, and speak the truth, over and over again.


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## Hawkvaly (Apr 30, 2018)

Hi again, TinyLiny

Ray *was* riding and showing horses among other things. He came across a horse he had a huge problem with. (Perhaps you already know the story?) so he consulted Tom. Ray and his first wife were living in Alberta and Ray was giving riding lessons at the college there and that is where he and my friend met. He and my sister encouraged Ray to start doing "clinics" -- Tom like to call it "visiting" about horses. There wasn't any such thing as a "clinic" before then. My friend eventually moved to California to live with Ray and Millie to ride and start horses with Ray. Things changed over the years because initially it was about riding. However, what happened was the "other" things became more of an interest because of the changes people could see and the "wow" factor. As I already mentioned, several took some of these things (I think the first was John Lyons). So I guess in a nutshell the riding became less and less "important". What I do know is how aggressive most of them have become. I know Ray could be hard on a horse I saw some of it. So there are a lot of things that have factored into where things are today. I'd like to think that Tom especially would be disheartened. There were some wonderful things that came out of this philosophy, but there have also been things that haven't been so nice as history has shown. Whatever, though, they certainly have influenced horsemanship, no denying. It's all in the interpretation, I guess as that video clearly demonstrates.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hmm definitely don't like that video eg in the least. It is purely using strong, sharp punishment without even first asking the horse 'nicely'. 'Preparing' the horse... That you're going to be a rough jerk sometimes in the future & horse needs to learn to just put up with it??


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## Hawkvaly (Apr 30, 2018)

Yes, I gasped the first time I saw that video. It's hard to watch even still. It's so far off the rails, one wonders just how anyone could dream this up and believe it to be helpful. No empathy there and certainly no thinking.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

OH my... I want to cry when I see that video. WTH... just why???

Getting back to the OP's problem, which, as we all agree, is not going to be solved in a week, but for the sake of discussion, I'll add my bit.

I believe Kodak was shut down when I got her, and that these types of methods were exactly what caused it. With a horse that is shut down, learning can no longer take place, which is why it seems like they are unpredictable, and are not progressing. 

You have to start from the beginning with a horse like this. What worked for me is regaining trust very, very slowly, at liberty in an area big enough that the horse can get away and never feels pressured. And treats. Yes, treats. I didn't use any at first, because I wanted to create a bond that wasn't based on food. But as per my trainer's instructions, after 3 months of liberty work, I began to occasionally re-introduce food rewards. And boy, did that wake her up! 

Clicker-training, and liberty work with food rewards was a big "Wait, what?!" moment for her. Not right away mind you. She wouldn't take food from me at all when I first got her. So I would put treats in a bucket. One of the liberty games we played was find the carrot. I would strategically place small pieces of carrots in buckets throughout the paddock (some were empty), and lead her to buckets with carrots so she would come to realize that she needed me to find them. Horses have an uncanny ability to learn when they are getting something out of it (ie, food). 

With Kodak, it was a matter of doing things completely opposite from what she had known in her life. This is how I "woke her up". She is no longer shut down, and looks forward to our "games", walking up to me asking to be haltered now.


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