# The plethera of "abuse" videos...



## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

So I have noticed that there has been quite a few "abuse" videos posted lately...in my opinion, they are not abuse, mostly bad practices. 

It worries me that anyone with a camera on their phone can post a video of me doing something with my horse, post it to YouTube and label me a horse abuser. I shouldn't have to look around or be concerned with who is recording me if my horse needs to be disciplined in public.

Does anyone else find this concerning?


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Absolutely scary. Could happen to any of us, almost any day. All some person with little knowledge and a camera has to do is post pics......there wil be more nuts to jump on the wagon. It is a really slippery slope. My fear is that the "peter and the Wold" thing will happen, and when there is REAL abuse, none will listen. Sort of like when folks say they will ruth or send a horse to auction if not sold today...... I am tired of it.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

LOL, nope. If they videotape me, they probably know who I am & who I roll with, so I doubt they would want to do that. But I see your point Chickie, I think it's bs.


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## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

Your horse, your CHILDREN, your dog, the neighbors kids..... don't discipline them or you are a horrible monster. BLECH GAG Whatever... 

But yeah I whole heartedly agree with this post!! It is disturbing. There really isn't a privacy law I know of to CYOA in this instance. I'd assume, the best you could do is file slander charges IF you could identify the posters and commentators calling you an abuser.
Can you imagine the financial burden that would place on a horse owner trying to defend their reputation in an industry where your rep is everything?


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

franknbeans said:


> Absolutely scary. Could happen to any of us, almost any day. All some person with little knowledge and a camera has to do is post pics......there wil be more nuts to jump on the wagon. It is a really slippery slope. My fear is that the "peter and the Wold" thing will happen, and when there is REAL abuse, none will listen. Sort of like when folks say they will ruth or send a horse to auction if not sold today...... I am tired of it.


Exactly...



waresbear said:


> LOL, nope. If they videotape me, they probably know who I am & who I roll with, so I doubt they would want to do that. But I see your point Chickie, I think it's bs.


Nice, I wish I packed some clout :twisted:


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

I was recently riding a very green 2 yr old around at a quarter horse show. There was a woman recording, I'm not quite sure what exactly she was recording. But the mare bulked an started backing up out of nowhere she backed into 2 other horses which caused quite a scene. Just as I was considering over an undering an spuring her forward I looked over an the camera was on me. The horse was still backing in that moment so I took a breath an asked the horse to whoa. Once she stopped I asked her to go forward an she trotted off calmly. 

Who knows what she was recording or why but I wasn't about to take a chance an put my bosses reputations on the line. Whenever I am riding around at a show I try my best to ride quiet an calmly. I feel if your going to really get after a horse it needs to be at home. Causing as scene in public is never good. Unless the situation really calls for it. Anything you do can be misconstrued into something it's not. Narrow minded ignorant people can be very dangerous.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## redpony (Apr 17, 2012)

Yes, it is very scary! You hit the nail on the head. I'm very thankful I live out in the country where traffic is low and neighbors are 1/4 mi.away. There are too many people who don't understand.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

.Delete. said:


> Causing as scene in public is never good. Unless the situation really calls for it. Anything you do can be misconstrued into something it's not. Narrow minded ignorant people can be very dangerous.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is so very true. It wouldn't matter that she was a danger, just that you abused the poor lil poneh!


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

In my opinion, all the "questionable" training should be done at home, in your own barn. If you go to a show and things go awry, you have to realize that not only are you in a public place with video cameras, you are also in a public place where other children might mimic your behavior, judges might be watching the warm up, etc. etc. If you are not prepared to be able to deal with your horse in a moderately acceptable fashion at a show, you shouldn't be showing. If there is an "emergency", you're going to have to take your chances. But if you are picking big battles in the warm-up pen, it's not going to make much difference. 

I think AQHA did a good job of addressing this problem by banning any equipment that is illegal from showing to also be illegal from use in the warm-up pens. Go hanky shank your horses at home, then bring them in. I don't want to see that stuff, I don't care what reason there is. 

You wouldn't spank your kids for misbehaving in the middle of a public place, you have to find another way to deal with the problem, or just take the kid/horse out of the situation.


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

These recent "abuse" posts are just ridiculous and out of line. 

It is scary as to what people can record. And edit! Photoshop! And whatever else can be done.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I am glad no one was around to video me parenting my children in past years, 
'cause at times, it was really ugly!


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

> You wouldn't spank your kids for misbehaving in the middle of a public place...


I see SOOOO many children acting up that NEED a spanking. It's stupid that you aren't able to spank a child in public. One little whop shouldn't be misconstrued as abuse. I mean come on. When a child is throwing a tantrum in the middle of a grocery store because they can't have a candy bar and are knocking everything over and kicking at mom, what are you supposed to do? That's the problem now-a-days with children. They get away with too much crap and parents are worried about going to jail for abuse when it should be teaching a kid manners. Nothing ****es me off more...

My brother and I NEVER behaved badly in public. We knew better. Even at home. We knew we'd be in BIG trouble when dad got home. My 7 year old niece, gets away with murder! My brother wasn't raised that way, I don't know how his child can be raised like that. This past weekend, she threw the WORST tantrum I've ever seen. She was kicking at her 1 year old sister, screeching, crying, throwing stuff, hitting the dogs. I was ****ed. I nearly took her home and my mom wouldn't let me. She doesn't listen at all. She won't stay in time-out. So my mom spanked her. Did it help? Not really. But she finally calmed down after 1 hour of being the naughtiest child ever. I was so frustrated. My child will NEVER, EVER, EVER act like that. Or I'll start digging both of our graves. ;-)


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

But look - why should we be spanking kids in the first place? There have been studies that show how psychologically damaging spanking is to kids. I can tell you, tantrums just don't "come out of nowhere". It's like a horse that all of a sudden kicks you in the face. There were signs, and parents miss them. If the kids get away with murder at home... gee, wonder what's going to happen when they go to a public place...


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## cakemom (Jul 4, 2010)

Good thing noone caught me throwing that bucket at Flickas head when she chased me down and trampled me the other day huh? Or the fact that I throw a rock or two at her when she tries to come onto the porch for a snuggle?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

oh vair oh said:


> In my opinion, all the "questionable" training should be done at home, in your own barn. If you go to a show and things go awry, you have to realize that not only are you in a public place with video cameras, you are also in a public place where other children might mimic your behavior, judges might be watching the warm up, etc. etc. If you are not prepared to be able to deal with your horse in a moderately acceptable fashion at a show, you shouldn't be showing. If there is an "emergency", you're going to have to take your chances. But if you are picking big battles in the warm-up pen, it's not going to make much difference.
> 
> I think AQHA did a good job of addressing this problem by banning any equipment that is illegal from showing to also be illegal from use in the warm-up pens. Go hanky shank your horses at home, then bring them in. I don't want to see that stuff, I don't care what reason there is.
> 
> You wouldn't spank your kids for misbehaving in the middle of a public place, you have to find another way to deal with the problem, or just take the kid/horse out of the situation.


So because of these folks we can no longer school at a show? Shoot, we used to have specific shows just FOR that! If I still rode H/J and my horse refused something because he was a brat, you can bet I would get after him. You cannot let bad behavior slide, as it will just escalate, and now that ignorant person has affected your life. Plus, it may be a behavior that only happens at shows. Yes, I will try the most unobtrusive way, but you cannot allow a horse ( or a child, IMO) to learn "ok-we are out in public now, so she can't do anything...." I think that is just silly. 

I will guarantee you if I see someone at a show with a camera on me, I will report them to the show officials. It is one thing for them to record their horse, friend, etc. But recording me-another subject. I think I will have a conversation about this with the trainers I know. I really think that the organizers of the shows are sign to have to address this, altho it will be very difficult to enforce.


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## VanillaBean (Oct 19, 2008)

I would never discipline my horse in a public place the way I do at home. I think a lot of people just discipline out of habit at shows. ...but when I see someone who is "abusing" at a show, even if it is in the same way I would at home, I do get very upset. Save the insano kicking/spurring/whipping for somewhere else, because I sure as heck don't need to watch it.

I understand that sometimes, you really DO need to take it to extremes no matter where you are, though. I have never needed to go crazy on my horse wat a show. Find other ways to deal.


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

VanillaBean said:


> I would never discipline my horse in a public place the way I do at home. I think a lot of people just discipline out of habit at shows. ...but *when I see someone who is "abusing" at a show, even if it is in the same way I would at home, I do get very upset*. Save the insano kicking/spurring/whipping for somewhere else, because I sure as heck don't need to watch it.


To be fair, though, consistency is important - how often have we heard/read that here on the HF -- those who are behaving with their horse at the show just as they would at home are being consistent. Also - to the bolded - are you saying you become upset seeing someone do something at a show that is what you do at home? That certainly seems hypocritical....


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Rascaholic said:


> Can you imagine the financial burden that would place on a horse owner trying to defend their reputation in an industry where your rep is everything?


The same can go for a horse trainer. Someone could take a small portion of a video where a horse was being corrected for a serious infraction and put it out there as "abuse" and ruin the trainer's reputation and business with it. That is a constant risk.

As for the punishing in public thing, sometimes it just needs to be done, regardless of whether it's your horse, your dog, or your child. If you only punish at home and never do in public, how long do you think it will be before they figure out the difference and start acting like complete butt holes in public but being little angels at home.

Because everyone is so much up in everyone else's business, people are afraid to discipline their critters and their children. Either that, or the folks that are always so concerned with everyone else's business just spend their time trying to be "friends" with their children and animals and in doing so, spoil them rotten.

Those "friendly" people are the reason that there are so many horses that are so spoiled that they are on the verge of being vicious...and why our prison population is growing exponentially. They ruin everything in their own lives under the guise of "punishment doesn't work" and they are so numerous that the actual _good_ folks who are just trying to get along are scared to do anything in public, even if it needs done, for fear of being labeled as something they are not.

Both me and my brother, along with all my aunts and uncles, grew up in homes where punishment was swift and appropriate. I got spankings and was never "emotionally scarred" from them. They taught me not to lie, they taught me to show respect for my elders and my animals, and they taught me no not throw a friggin tantrum just because I didn't get my way.


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

smrobs said:


> The same can go for a horse trainer. Someone could take a small portion of a video where a horse was being corrected for a serious infraction and put it out there as "abuse" and ruin the trainer's reputation and business with it. That is a constant risk.
> 
> As for the punishing in public thing, sometimes it just needs to be done, regardless of whether it's your horse, your dog, or your child. If you only punish at home and never do in public, how long do you think it will be before they figure out the difference and start acting like complete butt holes in public but being little angels at home.
> 
> ...


I think I love you!


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## Easter (Dec 24, 2011)

oh vair oh said:


> You wouldn't spank your kids for misbehaving in the middle of a public place, you have to find another way to deal with the problem, or just take the kid/horse out of the situation.


Hmm. I remember being spanked in public many a times ;-)


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

themacpack said:


> I think I love you!


Me too! :lol::clap::hug:


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

lol. All my mother had to do was throw away my favorite toy horse when I was five - and she never gave it back to me. No spanking was as threatening as the words "I'll sell your horse if you don't behave". Because I believed her and snapped back in line xD. 

I was at a show once, and my gelding was being a bit of a pooty head warming up for showmanship. I was hauling off on the chain when he didn't stop, and I was whipping him with my Dressage crop to get him to go. I didn't realize until I stopped that everyone in the arena was staring at _me_, at an open show. Then I realized that I was fighting a fight that should've been done at home. No amount of hanking would make him learn any better for the class, because the training simply wasn't there. 

Like I always say, I make sure my horse runs at 200% at home, because the stress of the show will always knock them in half. 

But there are other times when I have made corrections. He got to the point where when he heard "line up" he'd zing from the rail into the center without regard. I had two options, I could've ripped on him and make a big scene and made him work his fanny off, but instead I took a breath and halted, backed him up calmly to the rail and simply told the judge that she should DQ me from the class this round, because I needed to handle my horse. I blow classes at open shows all the time for training purposes, but I try to do it as discreetly and quietly as possible. Now he realizes that I can stop him wherever I decide, and doesn't do it at breed shows.

Like I said, it's picking battles, not a "no hands" approach.


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## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

oh vair oh said:


> But look - why should we be spanking kids in the first place? There have been studies that show how psychologically damaging spanking is to kids. I can tell you, tantrums just don't "come out of nowhere". It's like a horse that all of a sudden kicks you in the face. *There were signs, and parents miss them.* If the kids get away with murder at home... gee, wonder what's going to happen when they go to a public place...


Yep, I did miss them, I was working to put food on the table. He was raised to behave a certain way. He had rules to follow. He knew what happened if he broke the rules or misbehaved. It is called "consequences for your actions." He chose to misbehave, he knew there would be a reaction. 

I didn't beat my son. I disciplined him. With force, if necessary. I didn't spank him in anger, I spanked him to drill into his noggin the rules we followed in my household, and that his life wasn't something to risk by doing stupid s***. 

I don't care how many studies there are that say it isn't a good thing to spank a child. 

I got my butt torn up by my Mom. She should have given me a *lot* more spankings than I got. I still to this day respect her wishes and value her teachings. Was I afraid of her, no way. She loved us kids more than she loved herself or anyone else. She was, and still is my Friend as well as my Mom. I value that concept. She gave me life, she taught me right from wrong. She did it in a way that left no doubt about how I should behave and conduct myself.

I tried to do no less for my own child. Because I love him more than life and wanted him to grow up respecting himself and others. With a set of values/moral fiber he could be proud of. 

I'm not picking a fight, but that hit close to home. Parents work. Parents have lives. Parents are people too. We make mistakes. As a parent I'd rather spank my child's butt than see him run over by a car for riding in the middle of the road. If it was a mistake, well I guess that is one I can live with.


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

^^^ I completely agree.


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

I don't spank, so that isn't a consideration for me, but I discipline my children EXACTLY the same (dogs and horses too) in public as I do in private.


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## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

oh vair oh said:


> lol. All my mother had to do was throw away my favorite toy horse when I was five - and she never gave it back to me.
> 
> _I wasn't throwing toys away LOL I worked hard to buy those!_
> 
> Like I said, it's picking battles, not a "no hands" approach.


I agree, rofl just don't ask my son if he ever got a spanking in public. He'd smile and say "Yes Ma'am, I did."


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

If anything, I expect MORE of my kids, dogs and horses in public than I do in private - they are to be on their very best of the best behavior when out and about.


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## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

themacpack said:


> If anything, I expect MORE of my kids, dogs and horses in public than I do in private - they are to be on their very best of the best behavior when out and about.


Yep. What Mac said.


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

I know, I wasn't meaning to offend, but my mother is a kindergarten/first grade teacher, and since it's a part of her job to discipline the kids without hurting them, I just think it can be done. It just saddens me when she comes home and gets beat up by parents who drop their kids off at daycare all day, don't help them with their homework, and then get mad at my mom when she takes away their gameboy in class when the kid gets whatever he wants at home so he'll be quiet. Then the parents come in for class parties and make a big show of spanking their kid for being a complete idiot. 

I was never spanked, but I wasn't spoiled either. My mother was very intelligent, and she used her intelligence over physical harm to discipline me. I had a lot of consequences too. If I didn't clean my room, my mom was going to come in and throw all my toys that were on the floor in the trash. If I was ungrateful about a present, she took it back. If I threw a tantrum, she would just leave me there until I cried it out, and then came an talked to me sternly. Sometimes I think kids need to be able to cry it out. There's no use trying to get to a kid who's having a meltdown. Let him do it, then have the talk.

But just like in horse training, raising a kid varies just as much. There's so many techniques to be used. It all has a context, which I think is the point of this thread. People need to put more in context, which I should do more of too.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

There is a photograph that was recently put up on a social media site, by a local photographer showing an eventing horse at a 3DE over the weekend. The horse has its mouth open and looked like it was being 'abused'. However, when you watch a video and see other photo's of the round, the horse is as happy as larry, the rider very gentle. At the point when this photo was taken, the horse was bowling along towards a jump and the rider had to use some strength to get it back - for saftey, you don't want to be going flat out with no control to a solid fence. Photographer snaps a photo, puts it on the internet with the comment that its there for people to 'learn from'. 
This REALLy angers me, a photo is a moment of less than 1 second, if you take enough photos, even the sweetest, most quietly ridden horse is going to look like its being abused or ridden in rolkur. Just like you can make a terrible horse and rider look good for that second in time if your camera speed is fast enough.

Its just crazy, all these galloping housewives jumping on the 'abuse' bandwagon, when they themselves ride around with bumping hands, noisey legs and a heavy seat. But as soon as you correct a horse, even a minor correction, and it happens to be caught on camera, you are 'abusing' it.

RUBBISH!


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## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

oh vair oh said:


> *But just like in horse training, raising a kid varies just as much. There's so many techniques to be used. It all has a context, which I think is the point of this thread.* People need to put more in context, which I should do more of too.


This is very true. And that is what I was trying to say. I like my signature for this exact reason. Not every child, horse, dog, cat, nor goldfish will react the same as another.....I think we have a lot of folks who agree with that farrier philosophy "It depends...."


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Kayty said:


> There is a photograph that was recently put up on a social media site, by a local photographer showing an eventing horse at a 3DE over the weekend. The horse has its mouth open and looked like it was being 'abused'. However, when you watch a video and see other photo's of the round, the horse is as happy as larry, the rider very gentle. At the point when this photo was taken, the horse was bowling along towards a jump and the rider had to use some strength to get it back - for saftey, you don't want to be going flat out with no control to a solid fence. Photographer snaps a photo, puts it on the internet with the comment that its there for people to 'learn from'.
> This REALLy angers me, a photo is a moment of less than 1 second, if you take enough photos, even the sweetest, most quietly ridden horse is going to look like its being abused or ridden in rolkur. Just like you can make a terrible horse and rider look good for that second in time if your camera speed is fast enough.
> 
> Its just crazy, all these galloping housewives jumping on the 'abuse' bandwagon, when they themselves ride around with bumping hands, noisey legs and a heavy seat. But as soon as you correct a horse, even a minor correction, and it happens to be caught on camera, you are 'abusing' it.
> ...


Hey! No bad talking about housewives. It is just as likely to be the book smart PhD, or some hormonal tween/teen.:wink:


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Whoops, Aussie slang again! Galloping housewives around here, are more the people who have too much money, have never worked a day in their life and then go and buy a good horse because they've got the money - making them immediate experts


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## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

Kayty said:


> Its just crazy, all these galloping housewives jumping on the 'abuse' bandwagon, when they themselves ride around with bumping hands, noisey legs and a heavy seat. But as soon as you correct a horse, even a minor correction, and it happens to be caught on camera, you are 'abusing' it.
> 
> RUBBISH!


 See if I took this part of your statement only, I could turn it into a housewife bashing..... But I get your point, and I agree.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

oh vair oh said:


> But look - why should we be spanking kids in the first place? There have been studies that show how psychologically damaging spanking is to kids..


That's a load of stinking excrement.


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## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

Kayty said:


> Whoops, Aussie slang again! Galloping housewives around here, are more the people who have too much money, have never worked a day in their life and then go and buy a good horse because they've got the money - making them immediate experts



We used to call those "Old Gray Mares" at the barn where I grew up LOL


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## Daisy25 (May 29, 2011)

I think part of the problem is the ASSUMPTIONS...

IF your child / dog / horse etc. acts up it must be because there is something wrong with YOU.

And because they ASSUME that YOU are at fault (because, really, why wouldn't your charge be behaving perfectly in every situation?) they are then going to be SUPER CRITICAL of anything you do to try and correct the situation. And after they accuse you of ignorance and abuse - they can go on their merry way and brag on YouTube about how they singlehandedly saved a child / dog / horse from YOU - You IGNORANT ABUSER!


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## Cintillate (Jan 8, 2012)

Glad to see some people are aware of this problem and agree with what some have said.

Different people with different ideas on how to handle things and then just getting in other peoples business. I don't have to do what others want me to and they don't have to do what I think they should.

I honestly don't care how they train their horse, it is their horse. It is between them. If it is real abuse...and the definition of it may vary from person to person and that is where the problem starts...I think I might and other people would step in.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Just a note on spanking kids...

When kids are young, they don't process time. When my oldest daughter was nearly 5, I told her in passing that I liked her the way she was, so I was going to cancel her birthday & keep her 4 forever.

BIG MISTAKE. You see, she took that literally. My wife found her sobbing in her room, because Daddy was going to keep her 4 forever! "*I want to be a Mommy, and I can't be a Mommy if I'm always 4!!!!!!!*"

Like dogs and horses, little kids don't do so well with, "I'm punishing you now for something you did an hour ago". It just doesn't compute. What does compute is a swat on the butt, at the time. And as is true with my experience with horses & dogs, it doesn't have to be harsh. Just there and immediate.

When they get older, you have more options. My wife used to tell my oldest daughter she would be spanked when Dad got home. My daughter didn't mind the actual swat on the butt. What drove her bonkers was ANTICIPATING it. My son didn't get that threat, because it meant nothing to him.

And by the time they were in school, there were other forms of punishment that made more sense. Toys taken away, restrictions, etc. But at 2 or 3 or 4, I found a swat on the rump was effective and safe - and it doesn't seem to have harmed them any. All 3 say that, if anything, it should have happened more...

The grandkids? Well, with support of their parents, I'm welcome to swat a <2 year old butt if the kid needs it. And the parents were my kids, so they apparently think I know the difference between needed and not. And with little Audrey, they feel free to say, "I'm going to tell Grandpa..."

Although I'll admit, it is hard to be very stern at times:


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

I doesn't get much cuter than that, bsms


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## CurlyIsASpecialStandie (Jul 19, 2011)

bsms - my mum has a picture of my little brother as a very young child looking identical to that!! 

I will say that when i was little my mum and dad had given me a smack and i totally deserved it at the time! I dont beleive that i am psychologically damaged from that but you never know


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## busysmurf (Feb 16, 2012)

Very adorable bsms!

I'm just so sick of the word "abuse" being thrown at everything. The second someone does something different than the way you (meaning anyone) does it, and they don't like it, they scream abuse!

Like an ubber laid back trail rider, screaming abuse at a upper level dressage rider. Or a top level competitor yelling neglect at someone who just enjoys having a lawn ornament. I'm not even going to start on the non-horse ppl.

The word is just plain over used! I'm afraid a lot of the ppl that keep crying abuse wouldn't know what to do if it really was abuse? They'd probably implode.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

Anymore it seems that abuse has been redefined as "anything I don't agree with - even if I know nothing about the subject at hand"


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## busysmurf (Feb 16, 2012)

themacpack said:


> Anymore it seems that abuse has been redefined as "anything I don't agree with - even if I know nothing about the subject at hand"


EXACRY!!!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tennessee (Dec 7, 2008)

I had to laugh when I saw it on here that people are not supposed to spank their kids in public. I'm 18 years old and my 5'3" mother will still beat the hell out of me if I act out in public.


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## mysticalhorse (Apr 27, 2011)

At a store one day when I was pregnant with my last child my youngest daughter who was 2 at the time got told no.... And the biggest public tantrum I have ever dealt with started! She took off & threw her shoes, hit me, screamed bloody murder, really she was screaming ouch & hurt! So I checked out & offered her to put on her shoes, she refused, I told her it was hot outside & her feet would hurt, no dice.... So I made her walk @ 10 steps on the pavement before having her jump onto the cart to coast to the car. Got there, had my other kids load up & I was having a talk with her when out of no where a woman starts screaming at me that I am abusing my daughter & she is calling 911! I looked at her like she was nuts, finished dealing with my kid, loaded her up I& then as calmly as possible told the lady I was taking my children home to feed them lunch & put said screamed down for a nap. I told her to be sure & get my license plate so the police could just come to my home. As I was talking to her several people who saw the tantrums in the store told the lady she was crazy for calling me in, she had no idea how long the trantrum had gone on & the free crying was because I had finally gotten through to my kid. 
So just imagine if I had spanked her in public... Would my child have been taken away? 
I do spank, timeout,chores, & also come up with creative consequence & punishments.... I do have good kids who will have bad days.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I've had horses for many years and it's only been in the past 15 or so years that the term "abuse" has become so popular. It seems every horse I encounter has an abuse story from the previous owner. So beware when you sell a horse, you are the previous abuser. Anyway, I don't buy it, because after watching the horse with it's owner, it has quickly figured out what it can get away with. I find it almost pathetic that there seems to be a need to label a horse as abused or that it was a rescue. Why can't they just change hands? (an old term).


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## CarmenL (Apr 20, 2012)

My two and a half year old granddaughter, Lizzy, can be quite naughty at times so she has a timeout place she has to go to. The other evening, at dinner, she had a wee scheming look on her face, picks up a fistful of peas and fires them at her mother! Then she gets down from the table and puts herself in the 'timeout' place muttering "that was not a good choice Lizzy, not a good idea to do that!!! Her parents were trying their best to keep a straight face!


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Saddlebag said:


> I've had horses for many years and it's only been in the past 15 or so years that the term "abuse" has become so popular. It seems every horse I encounter has an abuse story from the previous owner. So beware when you sell a horse, you are the previous abuser. Anyway, I don't buy it, because after watching the horse with it's owner, it has quickly figured out what it can get away with. I find it almost pathetic that there seems to be a need to label a horse as abused or that it was a rescue. Why can't they just change hands? (an old term).


I agree with you, but there are cases out there that are truly being abused.. as there are people out there truly being abused (and not just spanked for being naughty.)

It's kind of like an excuse for your horse to be naughty. "Oh he was abused" apparently explains it all.

Now my horse WAS abused, physically and mentally on two different occasions. You'd never know with how he is now; it doesn't define him but it's sadly a part of his past. Good thing life is about moving on from the past! I don't make that an excuse for him, he's very well behaved and a favourite at my barn! 

Now I'm no trainer, I'm sure people would nit pick at my methods and take pictures of those "omg abusive" moments and say that I was a bad person, blah blah blah. Well if you met me, you'd think differently. I think people don't have the guts to say it to your face, so they hide behind the 'safety of the internet' and post whatever nonsense they want. They inflate it via social networking sites, youtube, and other public favourites to find idiots that agree with them.

It's sad.. but it's unfortunately part of life. In this such occasion, ignorance is not bliss.


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## Daisy25 (May 29, 2011)

Tennessee said:


> I had to laugh when I saw it on here that people are not supposed to spank their kids in public. I'm 18 years old and my 5'3" mother will still beat the hell out of me if I act out in public.


LOL! Good for her!


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## wetrain17 (May 25, 2011)

Im not worried at all because I do not abuse my horses. So if someone films me and edits it in a way that it looks like my horses are abused and I get reported, fine with me. I'll welcome the ASPCA, or whomever comes out. At least they'll get a good laugh in their day at who ever made the report.


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

saddlebag said:


> i've had horses for many years and it's only been in the past 15 or so years that the term "abuse" has become so popular. It seems every horse i encounter has an abuse story from the previous owner. So beware when you sell a horse, you are the previous abuser. Anyway, i don't buy it, because after watching the horse with it's owner, it has quickly figured out what it can get away with. I find it almost pathetic that there seems to be a need to label a horse as abused or that it was a rescue. Why can't they just change hands? (an old term).


ita .......


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## gigem88 (May 10, 2011)

I know it's aggravating, but I'd rather have people interested in animal welfare than turn a blind eye out of complacently.(spelling??) Ignorant people (at least most) can be educated.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Alot more people these days are close minded.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

I'm wondering now if my neighbors videotaped me yesterday. My 2 yo filly is an impatient twit at breakfast time, she was pawing the concrete door stoop at the front of the barn (seriously annoying). Shoo'd her off, repeat pawing once my back was turned. Me, much more annoyed, grabbed the broom and swatted her rotten butt with it (the broom end, not the handle as much as I'd have liked too lol). I'm sure it was amusing to watch. 

Sign me up to be a member of the meanie abuser club.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Gosh, if someone had been around to video me dealing with Taz a few months ago, I could have won the "abuser of the year" award. Yes, I ran his *** back and forth between me and the fence, I would pop his face with the rope halter when he leaned on me and I would whop him on the butt whenever he turned it toward me.

They wouldn't bother to mention that he tried to run me over while I was simply leading him through the gate back into his paddock...something that we'd done a thousand times and he knew what was expected of him.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

^^^ LOL..me too..every once in a while mine get a little pushy when I walk out with the grain bucket. So every so often I will get the stock whip out for a reminder of where my bubble is.


I don't think I do anything questionable at home, I don't tie my horses head to his chest and thump on him with a 2X4. I should be able to spank my horses butt for him not paying attention and running over the top of me in public, the same as I do at home. But someone could take a picture of me getting after him for doing so but not take picture of him walking over the top of me and call me an abuser. But if I don't discipline him and he decides to be a jerk, rear up and strike me in the head then the horse is dangerous and I am a bad horse owner for lack of discipline....
It seems to be a catch 22. But if people would mind their own business it wouldn't be an issue.

I totally agree that you need to put everything into to training at home and not waiting until your in the warm-up pen to start training, but if he is being a ***** I am **** sure going to fix it then. If I don't, it will get worse, not only will he be a danger to himself and me but also to everyone around. Sure horses have bad days, just like dogs and kids, and sometimes removing yourself and your horse from the situation is best. It is our responsibility as horse owners to know how to deal with these issues as not to injure our horses, ourselves and others. Even if it means if they get a spanking in public.


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## furbabymum (Dec 28, 2011)

My family still talks about the day they came over and I brained my weimeraner. Dumb dog wouldn't stop barking at them even after I gave the command to shut it so I whacked him a good one on the top of his head with my hand. Honestly haven't had the problem since. 

My parents had a spank chart when I was growing up. They'd make you go look at the chart and tell them what your punishment was for whatever it is you did. I plan on using that technique on my son! My son is the biggest tantrum thrower EVER at age 16 months. At home we have a bean bag chair that he is allowed to throw his tantrum however he wants on. In public, well you don't have the option of letting them scream it out in public. It's rude. So He gets a stern talking to and removed from the situation. When he's older if this tantrum thing hasn't stopped by then he will get swatted.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

COWCHICK77 said:


> So I have noticed that there has been quite a few "abuse" videos posted lately...in my opinion, they are not abuse, mostly bad practices.
> 
> It worries me that anyone with a camera on their phone can post a video of me doing something with my horse, post it to YouTube and label me a horse abuser. I shouldn't have to look around or be concerned with who is recording me if my horse needs to be disciplined in public.
> 
> Does anyone else find this concerning?


Welcome to the Internet age. There's not much we can do about it.


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## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

COWCHICK77 said:


> It seems to be a catch 22. But if people would mind their own business it wouldn't be an issue.


What she said!


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

No, b/c like wetrain17, I don't abuse them so - an accusation would go nowhere. 
But, I do have conversation w my horses, get into verbal "arguments", laugh, physically "show them" what I want, etc.,. I try to forget the fact that someone _could_ be watching me - that type of thinking makes it too hard to live.


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## Winter (Apr 22, 2012)

I'm a horse newb so please bear with me, and don't jump all over me. I don't know if anything I know applies to horses or not. I've just started working with them.  

I train dogs, and I use positive reinforcement. I never hit a dog or use fear or intimidation. You can get truly brilliant results from this. It's how marine animals are trained (Because there are very few ways to physically discipline a whale for instance). I use similar methods with kids, lol. That does not mean I'm not firm. It does not I'm permissive. I think these methods have become a more prominent way of training as of late, and people who use more "traditional methods" as it's called, are often called out for abuse. The thinking is, "if you can get results without pain or fear, why use pain or fear?"

Obviously, dogs are not horses  I know this. I've never trained a horse so I have NO IDEA if the methods I use for other animals would work on a horse, though I would love to find out. I like Buck Brannaman for horse training. I think he said, "Be gentle with what you say, but firm in how you say it." That's my line of thinking on it. 

Anyway, filming clips of someone and then labeling it abuse out of context is wrong. Everyone has bad days. I've yelled at my dog before, and believe me when I say in the positive reinforcement dog training world, some would call that abuse. And I'm completely serious. O.O If you physically manipulate the dog, and I'm not talking about hitting but maybe nudging him in the right direction, some would call it abuse. Or at the very least take away your positive reinforcement cred. So I guess I'm coming at it from a different perspective.


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## busysmurf (Feb 16, 2012)

So the question is....? How would you define abuse?

To me abuse is when discipline goes beyond what it's intended. When a horse strongly dislikes/doesn't want an item because it's the tool that the person uses to discipline, that's stupidity on the person's part. When it get's to the point that the horse doesn't want or shows obvious signs of fear (white eyed, shaking, etc.) for ANYTHING (brushes, halters, etc.) that gets near them, then yes that line has been crossed from discipline to abuse.

If the horse "bounces back" ( gets over an act of discilpine, relaxes with the rider after incident is done), as "cruel" as the act itself may seem, it's not abuse. Mostly a lack of better judgement. BUT, if the horse doesn't "bounce back" or shows signs of fear continuously throughout the ride or anytime with a particular rider and starts to show fear with anyone that is hard for the horse to over come. Then I would say that line of abuse HAS been crossed.


So that's the basics of my opinion


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

But if you see a wound up nervous or angry horse. Do you assume it's the result of abuse? You don't know the history or anything about that horse. Some horses are naturally very angry or nervous an never relax. Some horses shake an have crazy eyes because that's just the way they are. To assume those things are a result of abuse is pretty narrow minded.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

FWIW, I look at how dogs and horses treat each other, and figure they know how to communicate among themselves. I don't see a lot of 'positive reinforcement only' used by dogs or horses. I see consistency, and I see 'fairness' in the level of force used, but my dogs and horses BOTH use force to make another animal stop doing XYZ.

In fact, dogs and horses use far more force than I normally do. I've never drawn blood from a dog, or removed hair & skin from a horse.

I thought the woman in the video looked bad using a bat, but that plastic bat isn't capable of doing the kind of damage my mare's hooves can do. And an hour ago, my Appy chased my mustang around the corral (one loop) when the 13 hand mustang advanced on the 14.3 hand Appy's food.

There are too many folks running around now who don't know squat about animals, but who think they have the right to an opinion. I'd love to throw some of these do-gooders in a round pen with an angry mare who thinks of humans as subordinates, and let them find out what 1000 lbs of muscle can do...:evil:


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## busysmurf (Feb 16, 2012)

.Delete. said:


> But if you see a wound up nervous or angry horse. Do you assume it's the result of abuse? You don't know the history or anything about that horse. Some horses are naturally very angry or nervous an never relax. Some horses shake an have crazy eyes because that's just the way they are. To assume those things are a result of abuse is pretty narrow minded.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Your right, I should have put that in. I was trying to keep it short, since lately my computer has been restarting in the middle of my typing.

A person CANNOT determine a true abuse case off of a brief glimpse. Homework MUST be done!!!!!

My bad


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

BTW - my Appy was abused. He still has a 2" scar on one side where he had a hole spurred thru his skin. The hole on the other side has largely healed over, but you can find it if you want. If it draws blood or leaves a hole, it is probably abuse.

Wiffle bat? Stupid, but not abuse.


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## busysmurf (Feb 16, 2012)

bsms said:


> FWIW, I look at how dogs and horses treat each other, and figure they know how to communicate among themselves. I don't see a lot of 'positive reinforcement only' used by dogs or horses. I see consistency, and I see 'fairness' in the level of force used, but my dogs and horses BOTH use force to make another animal stop doing XYZ.
> 
> In fact, dogs and horses use far more force than I normally do. I've never drawn blood from a dog, or removed hair & skin from a horse.
> 
> ...


Oh, you should here all the crap going on around here (WI) about that video.

I think I've put a few holes in the walls from banging my head against it. Yes, the person was being stupid (OK, VERY stupid). But I don't think it's worth tying a noose for her.


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## Winter (Apr 22, 2012)

Bsms, I have never been in a pen with an angry mare (thank God), so I don't know what I'd do (most likely run for the fence, lol). I can tell you from training dogs, though, that because a dog might bite another dog, that doesn't translate in how they communicate with people very well. So the point of training the way I do is to teach the dog a different way to react. Instead of hitting a dog for biting (and I'm not saying that's what you'd do, it's just an example), I would teach a different reaction than violence by using something other than more violence. Using force can stop a reaction, but I've found that you usually have to keep using force again and again, often in escalation. 

It takes longer, but in my experience, they truly learn a different way of reacting. And it can teach people control as well. It's pretty cool, but it's not the only way. 

And again I have NO CLUE how to teach a horse.  So I would never tell someone what they're doing is wrong in that arena until I can get experience in that area. 

Abuse for me is someone physically or emotionally hurting another being, and again, that can be hard to ascertain from a short video clip without context. Though I'd argue some things can be gleaned from videos as well, but to call someone an abuser is harsh without knowing details.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Playing the devils advocate here..

Say you have a horse that absolutely refuses to go forward and it takes spuring till it bleeds for it to finally comply. Is that abuse or is it justified? Should you just give up an deem the horse unrideable?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## busysmurf (Feb 16, 2012)

bsms said:


> BTW - my Appy was abused. He still has a 2" scar on one side where he had a hole spurred thru his skin. The hole on the other side has largely healed over, but you can find it if you want. If it draws blood or leaves a hole, it is probably abuse.
> 
> Wiffle bat? Stupid, but not abuse.


I'm going to go ahead and say that Dally was too. And this is why... She used to shake when she saw a halter. Quite often the whites of her eyes still show when a halter gets anywhere near her, even though she no longer shakes. She's broken 2 sets of cross ties trying to get away from a brush near her neck. There are scars all over her body. You can speak firmly to her, but the second you raise your voice all h*** breaks loose. And after 6 months, I can tell she understands those things won't hurt her, but she still defends herself first, asks questions later. To me, that shows signs of abuse.

Odie on the other hand, absolutely HATES men. Some would say he's been abused by them. I know that he hasn't (I've owned him since he was 2). Yes, he's been handled roughly by men, and his feelings seem to stem from that. He does act like a different horse around men, but after he does his "I hate men" tough guy act, and they don't fit that "big, macho man" attitude, he does relax a little. But was he abused? Not even close!!


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## 94broncoxlt (Mar 31, 2012)

bsms said:


> There are too many folks running around now who don't know squat about animals, but who think they have the right to an opinion. I'd love to throw some of these do-gooders in a round pen with an angry mare who thinks of humans as subordinates, and let them find out what 1000 lbs of muscle can do...:evil:


No, because then the American government will step in and tell us we cannot own horses because they are dangerous and only designated people will be able to own them, after training courses, permits, and taxes are paid. No matter if its a tradition, hobby, or necessity. This is how they are taking everything else away..........:-|

But I get what you are saying fully and completely. Some people would have strokes if they saw the way **** and bear dogs are treated out here. They are treated as stock, because they are. They aren't fluffy in-home pets that get lots of love! They serve a purpose, to serve humans. Just like the cows and sheep out here. So I think the vast difference we see with horses, is where people draw their lines. What is okay, and what is not okay. What crawls under your skin, and what do you not even think twice about? 

About the video where the horse is beaten with the wiffle bat into the trailer.......that is similar to what we used on hogs at the farrowing farm I worked at. Piglets or 400-600 lb hogs getting loaded into the trailer, or in and out of rooms. People may take the horse video as raw abuse not knowing that its just poor training, and many people would take doing the same to pigs as ABSOLUTE abuse because of what PETA and other organizations are trying to make people believe. Ohh yes, I have my respect for PETA on like 1.67 issues and I see their place. But isn't it funny how different societys are trained to percieve abuse or neglect, without knowing the whole story?


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## 94broncoxlt (Mar 31, 2012)

Delete, If you walk down the trail and come to a 3ft wide log in the way, do you kick it until it moves or do you find ways around it?


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

On the "other hand" - there are cases of "true abuse" where video can be extremely helpful and I am glad someone does film it. 
But, I get what you mean - something harmless could potentially be taken out of context and "look like" abuse to the casual observer.


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## busysmurf (Feb 16, 2012)

.Delete. said:


> Playing the devils advocate here..
> 
> Say you have a horse that absolutely refuses to go forward and it takes spuring till it bleeds for it to finally comply. Is that abuse or is it justified? Should you just give up an deem the horse unrideable?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Personally, I'd stop before it got to the bleeding point and try something else. But trust me, that sucker would feel the spurs before I tried something else.

Once you start drawing blood, that get's to be on that really fine line of going to far. IMO


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## Winter (Apr 22, 2012)

For me, as someone who has never tried to train a horse (I feel like I've said that ten times, but I want it to be known), I would first try to figure out why the horse didn't want to go forward. There's a difference in if your or the horses life is in danger and you do something to save yourself and/or the horse, and in causing an animal to bleed because you want to ride it in a competition one day. For me that's inexcusable. I'd rather a horse just graze happily in a pasture from now on than to cause it that much pain for a very human desire that it had so little interest in.

I think that would be more rare, though. I believe there would have to be a different way in the middle between "never going to ride him" and "spur him till he bleeds and goes forward". It would just take work and patience to get there. And yes, I personally would consider spurring a horse till he bleeds abuse.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

For some reason the whole "wiffle bat" thing seems funny to me. If I hit my mare w a wiffle bat...she would grab it away from me and summarily stomp it to pieces. We get along just fine.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

A log cannot move on its own. A horse can  

Surely a person does not set out with the intentions to spur a horse raw. But when it comes down to letting a horse get away with someone what would you do? You want the horse to move off your leg yet it sucks back an gets very nasty with you every time. 

Such as when using a come-along to teach a horse showmanship. If I have a very dull horse that resists pressure instead of gives to it. It was not my intentions if that horse rubs its self raw. But it's my full intention to not let a horse get away with naughty behavior. If he rubs himself raw that is because he pushed it to that point not me. I am not jerking and yanking for no reason at all. Once that dull horse lightened up an starts giving to pressure. I lighten up too. If I kept being harsh with him then that is considered abuse. 

I'm a firm believer in if the horse is being heavy then you be heavy. Once the horse is light then you are light. It's all about knowing when to give an release pressure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

An the situation I presented about the horse not going forward off your leg. That is assuming all your other options have been exhausted. Certainly spuring a horse till it bleeds is a last resort. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calicokatt (Mar 5, 2012)

oh vair oh said:


> lol. All my mother had to do was throw away my favorite toy horse when I was five - and she never gave it back to me. No spanking was as threatening as the words "I'll sell your horse if you don't behave". Because I believed her and snapped back in line xD.


I tried this with one of my children. Didn't work AT ALL. What works for one child, very often doesn't work for another. It's GREAT for your mom that you were so motivated by your posessions, but many children aren't. I don't spank very often at all, but when I do, it sure gets the point across.


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## busysmurf (Feb 16, 2012)

.Delete. said:


> A log cannot move on its own. A horse can
> 
> Surely a person does not set out with the intentions to spur a horse raw. But when it comes down to letting a horse get away with someone what would you do? You want the horse to move off your leg yet it sucks back an gets very nasty with you every time.
> 
> ...


 Firecrackers work:rofl: They'll move away from THAT


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Yes! I like the way you think! Certainly will keep firecrackers in my training tool bag! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

.Delete. said:


> Yes! I like the way you think! Certainly will keep firecrackers in my training tool bag!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, I would have to be madder than a firecracker to consider drawing blood on my horse, or any horse. And, I won't work w them if I am angry....I will quit cold before I do...calm down, rethink, and try again.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Like I said its should never be your intention to do so. Abuse is when /you/ have pushed it to that limit. When it is the horse who brought it to that limit then it is justified. 

"I will stop spuring once you move forward even a little" vs "I'm going to keep spuring the s&*% out of you because you deserve it"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Winter (Apr 22, 2012)

I think it's a good common sense to stop training if you're angry, and to not discipline out of anger. I think that's when it's taken overboard.


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## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

THIS is what abuse looks like!!!
The 2 people were our neighbors. M & R. Myla is the horse in the photo. When R asked M to go with her to pick up a pitiful creature, M went. M is a guy and doesn't cry. (He has 2 horses of his own.) When they backed Myla out of the trailer he was cussing and crying. I think we all cried. 

This photo is almost 7 weeks after R took her out of a bad place. She is healthy now thanks to R. She'll never be what she could have been. This mare is only 13 yrs old.

When I can stand to look at the pictures I'll show you my last rescue.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

A good trainer is an emotionless trainer. 

When people take things personally an get flustered is when it's a problem.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Winter (Apr 22, 2012)

Rascaholic, that picture makes me so sad and angry. Thank you for rescuing horses. I wish I had the space and money to do that. Maybe one day.


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## busysmurf (Feb 16, 2012)

I think this is my all time favorite!!

"2.) I am willing to beat the crap out of a horse with a whip if it needs it, but this was just wrong. The horse was obviously scared of something, and under NO circumstances is a bat used in horse training" --youtube comment


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

.Delete. said:


> Playing the devils advocate here..
> 
> Say you have a horse that absolutely refuses to go forward and it takes spurring till it bleeds for it to finally comply. Is that abuse or is it justified? Should you just give up an deem the horse unrideable?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Of course, like anything else in the horse training world, the best answer I can give to that question is "it depends".

Over the course of my life, living with my Dad (who has been a professional trainer, specializing in "problem" horses, since the early '60s), and seeing the number and type of horses come through our barn in the last 25 years or so, I can confidently say that I've seen a lot of things most other horse folks can't even imagine. Horses that, by nature, are so terrified of their own shadow that they are a tremendous danger to themselves and everything/everyone around them. Other horses that, by nature or due to training, were so spoiled and vicious that it took downright fear, pain, and intimidation just to keep them from killing you.

So in the situation of the horse simply refusing to move forward, I would first have to figure out _why_ they were refusing. If it is out of fear or confusion, then definitely no spurs at all, I would work them around the problem until they figured out what I was asking and realized that it wasn't going to kill them. 

If they are being straight up obstinate and obnoxious, then I would get them moving by any means necessary. Just personally, I would be much more likely to leave welts on their *** with my bridle reins than to bloody one with a spur though. I've found that on a horse that is "stuck" for whatever reason, a spur is more likely to incite upward movement (buck or rear), whereas a bridle rein to the butt will be more likely to get them moving forward.


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## TimberRidgeRanch (Mar 6, 2012)

I got called on once not too long ago for abuse seems _I had my horses blind folded in the fields_. Lady called cops on me cop asked me why I have the horses blind folded I was like what? Their fly masks they can see fine!
o many clueless people I swear. You cant tll the difference between abuse and not abuse then I say mind your own business. JMO
TRR


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## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

This is the picture I meant to post of Myla. I didn't do the rescuing on this one. R did. Myself and M just helped all we could when we suspected she was colicing, went down and couldn't get up, and when R just needed a hand.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

.Delete. said:


> A good trainer is an emotionless trainer.
> 
> When people take things personally an get flustered is when it's a problem.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am sure that is very true, but few can achieve "zero emotions". I am not one of the "few", so, like I said, I just quit before get mad. I never take something personally....I do not think horses "calculate" doing stuff such as not going forward as a personal afront toward a given rider. 
Everyone has some threshold of pressure they are willing to put on a horse - mine stops at drawing blood, along w other stuff. It doesn't mean I think it is "abuse" to do so in every situation, it means - I won't do it...but I _might_ if I were really angry, which is why I quit if I feel I am headed there.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

Wow, Rascaholic, that is so sad. Who would do such a thing! I am glad she was rescued. That is such an honorable thing to do.


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## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

Missy May said:


> Wow, Rascaholic, that is so sad. Who would do such a thing! I am glad she was rescued. That is such an honorable thing to do.


I don't know exactly where she came from. R wouldn't tell me LOL


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

.Delete. said:


> An the situation I presented about the horse not going forward off your leg. That is assuming all your other options have been exhausted. Certainly spuring a horse till it bleeds is a last resort.


If, for any reason, you spur a 2" hole thru the skin of any of my horses, you'd best be prepared to run & run fast. Otherwise, it is going to hurt when I shove those spurs where the sun doesn't shine and the wind only blows in one direction.

My Appy - the one who was spurred severely when loaned to a ranch in Colorado - is named "Trooper" because the original owner, a rancher friend of mine, felt he was "just a little Trooper". Just give him a job, and he would do it. He was raised on a ranch, and did his job without complaint.

But if putting a 2 inch hole in the sides of a horse is how you teach a horse to go forward, don't ever come close to mine. God may have mercy on your soul, but I won't.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I'm sure today I could be called out for abuse.

Ruger was unresponsive to my leg, so I spurred him more. He got ****y and kicked out at my leg. I got after him hard with my leg and he overreacted, flinging himself around. The rest of the ride he was fine.

What the extremists would have seen would be me spurring this poor animal and him trying to defend himself from my awful awful horsemanship skills by kicking out because he was being spurred oh so hard.....And I'm an awful horse abuser...


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## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

I wonder what would have been said if a video was posted of Rascal when double barreled right beside my son's head.... feed bucket thrown, check. Whip grabbed off the barn wall, check. Walking behind him setting him up to kick again, check. Letting fly with the whip when he did, check. I purposely put myself in his space several times so he would kick and I could pop him one. 
Is that abuse? Meh I didn't think so then, nor do I think so now.

BTW this was on his 3rd or 4th day with us. He had already gotten DH in the thigh hard enough to count nail holes from the shoe, in the bruise. *knock on wood* He hasn't offered to kick anyone since then.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I do not care whether it is a horse, dog or child - *correction should be applied as and when it is needed at the time it happens not 'when your father gets home'!*

The video of the treatment of the foal was sad, it sickens me when I see an animal being forced to accept and it was, to my way of thinking, mental abuse. The second was not, both showed very ignorant so called trainers. 

Had the loading horse been given time to look, a hoof lifted and placed forward I am sure it would have loaded happily. 

There are a lot of people who own horses nowadays that are really ignorant of what a horse needs. I can get very cross with a horse and frighten the heck out of it without actually doing anything more than flicking it with its halter rope but, to many it will look as if it is cruelty. 

As for spanking children being traumatising - that is the latest fashion. Dr Benjamin Spock was the starter of all this yet his children were smacked and estranged from him. 
I know I was smacked, as opposed to beaten, many times. I can only ever remember it happening on one occasion and the reason I remember it was because it was unfair. 

What has been lost with 'modern' training is the understanding and reading of a horse's nature. There is a big difference between a horse saying "I am not sure," and "No way am I going to do that" 
The former needs time to look, take in and understand what is wanted and encouraged when moving in the right direction, the latter needs telling "Oh yes you are!" whether this is with a whack across the back end or any other method does not amount to cruelty. 
Understanding which is which, is what makes a good trainer not just the end result of how a horse is going which can be from force and not from wanting to work with the human.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

It's all matter of opinion, certainly I cannot fathom any reason why someone spurred a 2" hole in your horses side. I would imagine a horse will move pretty dang well off your leg once the spur spot becomes just raw.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

A couple of thing. IMO, you cannot compare training dogs and horses. One is predator, the other is prey. THerefore totally different approach.

I have one of those "refusing to go forward" types. And yes.....it is simply his attitude. And yes, he gets spurred, smacked, whatever I need to move his butt. (forward, that is, since he backs and side passes beautifully when he does this....:evil It takes WAY more spurring than my legs could ever do to inflict any injury. I have no idea how someone could spur a horse that much. Once he moves, he lopes off like it never happened. Just the testy "I am going to try and **** you off" sort at times. I sure hope it will eventually go away. I do not LIKE to do that to him, however, he does know better, it has nothing to do with fear at all, and everything to do with just being a butthead.

If anyone ever saw the trainer or I during one of these "episodes" I will guarantee many would think it was abuse.......

Again, a wiffle bat is not abuse, there are SO many other options they could have used, and that trailer with such a narrow opening is just asking for issues, IMO. I was totally amazed that horse didn't double barrel anyone. I hope that trainer goes back to basics and starts her education over. She seriously needs to consider her career choice.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Agreed unless I had rock grinders on I don't think my legs could do that kind of damage. I could make a horse sore for sure, leave some welts. But I highly doubt I could physically take it to that level.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HowClever (Feb 16, 2010)

As far as getting a horse moving forward, like Smrobs I would MUCH sooner leave welts on my horse's *** than even cause a "raw" spot from spurs. 

Other than that, I agree entirely that the word "abuse" gets thrown around far too much these days.


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## dirtroadangel (Jan 24, 2012)

Rascaholic said:


> This is the picture I meant to post of Myla. I didn't do the rescuing on this one. R did. Myself and M just helped all we could when we suspected she was colicing, went down and couldn't get up, and when R just needed a hand.


Wow poor baby.. Let us know how she's doing. And you were able to rescue Myla without giving personnel info on the abusers.
That is up to the authorities...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

franknbeans said:


> A couple of thing. IMO, you cannot compare training dogs and horses. One is predator, the other is prey. THerefore totally different approach


Sorry but although training methods are different, basically _any_ training should be along the same lines - dog, horse, human or any other animal - it should be firm, fair and fun. Consistency is vital, no grey areas.

My mother always said that if you promised a child a bar of chocolate they got it, if you promised a spanking they got that too.


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## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

dirtroadangel said:


> Wow poor baby.. Let us know how she's doing. And you were able to rescue Myla without giving personnel info on the abusers.
> That is up to the authorities...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, this one I didn't rescue. My friend R was the rescuer. I just helped out somewhat.

The horse I rescued last, Breezey, was worse than Myla. But, when it was all said and done, their was no justice for Breezey. She slipped through the cracks in the system. The proper people were to busy, to fool with doing the right thing for her.

That's why these videos screaming abuse make me freaking sick. While the screaming is going on, Animal Control Officers, county, state and federal, are focused on something besides the welfare of the animals. No one wants to look like an *** in a Youtube video. It's funny though, in an ironic kind of way, we have laws to protect against slander, defamation of character, false allegations, and I don't know how many more of this type stuff. WHERE are the charges against the people who scream it, and it isn't PROVEN??? You won't find many, unless it is through civil court, and that costs a chunk of change that folks could better use to take care of their animals. We used to be innocent til proven guilty, now we are innocent until someone posts on Youtube. What a crock of horse poo IMNSHO.

ETA: I haven't talked to R since the fall when we moved, but I'll email and see if I can get some updated photos of Myla.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

To start, I am not a horse trainer, dog trainer, or child psychologist. What follows is based on the kids I've raised with so-so success, and the dogs I've owned and the 4 horses I've worked with to some degree...

If my horse doesn't go forward, what should I do? Probably press the horse to go forward. But now let's suppose I've gone from light squeeze up the scale of pressure to kicking hard with my heels and using the reins (or a crop) on the horse's butt, and the horse won't go forward. What should I do?

I think I should take up smoking. If I took up smoking, I could take up rolling my own cigarettes. That would give me an excuse to roll my own cigarette, and smoke it. While doing that, I could wonder, "Why doesn't my horse go forward?"

It is easy for a horse to go forward. If it won't go forward with the smack of the reins, then for some reason it sees no function in going forward.

Think of being in a prison camp, and the guards tell you to step on a 6" block or be whipped. You would step on the block. If the block got bigger, you might hesitate - and be whipped. But if they take you to a 12 foot high block wall and tell you to step on top of it or else, you will take the "or else". What you are being asked is just beyond what you can give.

A horse can, physically, move forward. But if he doesn't go forward under pressure, and that pressure is almost at the point of drawing blood, then it is probably past time to ask, "Why?"

Based on the horses I've had (sample size 4) and the dogs I've owned (a larger sample), there could be many reasons.

Maybe he doesn't understand what is being asked.

Maybe he is afraid of something - and with horses, that could be just about anything!

Maybe he has had inconsistent training, so he doesn't believe relief will come when he moves forward. I've seen that a lot with dogs and kids. If someone spanks randomly, or out of proportion to the offense, or at the wrong time, the kid is now being beaten, not disciplined. The kid or dog figures it will be beaten regardless, so why bother trying? They just give up.

If the horse's experience with people indicates people are erratic, do things with no reason, and can't be trusted to take care of it, then it will lack motivation.

How to handle that will vary. I'm trying to turn my spooky Arabian mare into 'just a trail horse'. I reached the point of hiring a trainer. After the first 4 lessons, the trainer told me some horses have fears that cannot be trained away, and Mia might be one of those horses. On the next training session, she concluded that Mia had never been properly broken at all. She just didn't know what people were asking of her - in spite of the fact that she was sold as "Good for beginners!" and I had ridden her regularly. But the trainer concluded Mia was just trying to make things work 'in the blind', so to speak.

Instead of having a spooky, stubborn horse, she thought I actually had an uncommonly good natured horse who just didn't know any of the basics. So she started Mia (age 11) at the 'never been ridden' stage. And while it has taken months of work, the change is amazing.

Last week, we had all three horses on a wide trail that Mia has been on dozens of times. As usual, Mia was about 200 feet in front of everyone else. Suddenly she stopped, head went up, and she went rigid. I tried to calm her, but she backed up on her own - backed 100 feet or more. 

Well, that was better than the old, "Spin 180 and run in blind fear", but she was worried about something. None of us know what. And knowing her, kicking or smacking her would have pushed her over the edge of rational behavior. So my daughter-in-law took the lead on our 13 hand BLM mustang, who also saw no reason for fear. Mia followed him...tense, but she followed. About 50 yard past the first stop point, she relaxed and we went on with our ride.

Why did she stop? Don't know. But her fear was very real to her. Beating her with heels, or spurs, or crop would have been the equivalent of saying, "I don't know what you are afraid of, but you had better be MORE afraid of me!" Maybe a better rider than I could have sat out the fight that would follow, and MADE her more afraid of him than the ghosts ahead - but for what purpose?

I don't WANT my horse to obey out of blind fear of me. That is the way Trooper was when he arrived with open sores starting to heal on his sides. He would obey, but out of fear. And that is NOT fun to ride. It took about a year of work to get him to trust humans again. He is now our most reliable horse.

So if my horse wouldn't go forward, I wouldn't spur her until she was a bloody mess. I'd take up smoking instead.

The best part of riding, to me, are those rare times when my horse says, "Here is my body. It is yours. What you want, it will do. I'm loaning you my body..."

I haven't had many of those moments, or for very long, but it is pretty incredible when it happens.

The next best is when we finish a ride, and Mia sticks her nose under my arm, places her left ear next to my mouth, sighs, and I tell her softly in her ear that she was good that day. After about 30 seconds, she'll jerk her head back and look around, as if to see if anyone caught her in a moment of weakness.

That doesn't happen every ride, but it happens more often now. I don't show. I don't compete. And Mia needs a LOT more work to become 'just a trail horse'. I don't know if she will ever make that, but training to that goal is doing wonders for her attitude and mental stability.

I've only worked with 4 horses, all of which I owned and 2 of which are still very much works in progress. I'm not a pro at anything, and no one will ever want to buy a DVD of my working with horses, dogs, or kids. So this is all just FWIW.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

BSMS-if your post is in response to my horse not going forward, I can assure you he is not doing it out of fear. He also is far from afraid of me, and I am far from "drawing blood", and I find the insinuation insulting. THere is a reason why I am the 6th owner he has had, the only one who has had him for more than a few months. He is only 6 yrs old. Does he have trust issues? He probably has more issues caused by the fact that he has been able to pull this on SO many people and trainers who taught him that if he does this he will eventually get a new home. I am sticking with him, and have invested several thousands of $$ in (re)training a grade horse.....who will never bring a big price, should I ever decide to sell him. He was been with a "Chris Cox" nh type, a Parelli type, and now he is in reining training, since he actually likes the whole run fast and stop hard stuff. All just in the 2 yrs I have owned him. No less than 6 months with each, who each contributed positively to us.

I fully understand horses like yours on the trail, as well as perfectly bombproof ones (of which I have one) who stop on the trail....for no reason WE know, and have learned to trust their instinct-at least with my guy. If my old guy refuses to go forward on the trail-we don't, and usually I find he was right. Last time there was a hunter shooting where he shouldn't.

To make it sound like I am just being abusive to my horse when I use spurs or my reins (or both) when he is blatantly being obstinant is insulting. FYI-all 3 trainer (plus one of the horses previous owners I have become friends with, agree.....)

When I got him, his whole demeanor sucked. He would pin his ears, was disrespectful.....whole ball of wax. He is now going around with his ears up and attentive, and about 90% of the time. It is the 10% where we do battle, and I can only hope that my consistency and refusal to give up on him will diffuse that eventually.

It is not always as easy as you make it sound. Certainly NOT black and white. Lots of gray area here.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

FnB, my response involves this post:



.Delete. said:


> Playing the devils advocate here..
> 
> Say you have a horse that absolutely refuses to go forward and it takes spuring till it bleeds for it to finally comply. Is that abuse or is it justified? Should you just give up an deem the horse unrideable?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





.Delete. said:


> ...Surely a person does not set out with the intentions to spur a horse raw. But when it comes down to letting a horse get away with someone what would you do? You want the horse to move off your leg yet it sucks back an gets very nasty with you every time.
> 
> Such as when using a come-along to teach a horse showmanship. If I have a very dull horse that resists pressure instead of gives to it. It was not my intentions if that horse rubs its self raw. But it's my full intention to not let a horse get away with naughty behavior. If he rubs himself raw that is because he pushed it to that point not me...


That is what I was thinking about last night, and prompted my post this morning.

As I pointed out, my sample size is 4 horses, 2 of which are still in progress. Getting my horses to go has never been a problem. Stopping has been the problem...

And as I pointed out, I have no real problem with smacking a horse in the rump with reins or a crop. I've done it. But if that doesn't work, and you need to bloody the horse to make it move...there is a training issue here. IMHO. And the solution to the training problem is not "Beat harder, bleed 'em more".

And yes, previous owners cause a lot of the problems. The BLM mustang I got in December is a good trail horse, but a pain at times in an arena or around other horses. And his previous training, while a lesson horse, was to use a round pen to discipline him by running him ragged - to 'take the edge off him'.

He's the only bucker I've owned, and I'm glad he lacks the size to make the bucking very effective. I think it is going to take some round pen work (if I rebuild the round pen) and lunge line work to help him understand that we are not like his previous owners - that he CAN get relief if he takes the right option. He needs to learn that the right thing makes life simple and happy, and the wrong does not - but it needs to be consistent, proportionate, and timely.

IMHO, *ALL TRAINING NEEDS TO BE CONSISTENT, PROPORTIONATE, AND TIMELY.* Goes for dogs, kids, horses, grown men - you name it. The worst dogs, kids and horses I've met were ones that had been disciplined in a way that failed those three principles.

It took 8 months of not riding plus several months of full time training to deal with Trooper's fears. I have now been working Mia with a trainer (down to once/week now) for almost 6 months. I know Mia. She would fight to the death before submitting to harsh punishment. Her previous owner returned her to the charity after keeping her in a pasture with 2 large geldings - 1500 lbs to her 900 lbs. And she wouldn't submit to them, even when her weight had dropped to 750. If 2 1500 lb geldings can't kick and bite her into submission, I sure can't!

But when I work with her, in steps big enough to challenge her but small enough for her to succeed, she is wonderful. The challenge for me has been to learn what is big enough but not too big. How to read her. And having the patience to work at her pace and not mine...


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Mine actually was a trail horse prior to me having him. He will carry a monkey on a trail and be an angel......after all, they don't ask anything of him but to follow another horse.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

I would assume a horse that refused to go forward to the point of drawing blood has some screws loose. I wouldn't think it would be fear or anything along those lines.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I really feel for our little mustang. He's another horse who has had 6-7 owners, and was being used as a lesson horse just before we were given him. I honestly think he has the potential to be the best of our horses. He has a level head, is very sure footed, small but very strong for his size. I doubt he hits 650 lbs, but he can gallop with my 175 lbs & a 25 lb saddle, and not even breath hard afterward. He can turn on a dime, and if he understands what is expected, he'll get the job done.

But I don't think his recent training, at least, was consistent, proportionate or timely. I'd much rather smack a horse on the butt with a crop or reins than take him to a round pen and run him in circles. I don't think a horse connects that with the wrong behavior, and I think what it really teaches the horse is that humans are weird creatures who sometimes take a whip and make you run until it hurts, just because.

I think round pens are very useful for training, but NOT for 'punishment' or discipline.

With time and good training, I think the little mustang we got for free could become a 'to die for' horse. Tomorrow, I'm going to ask the trainer who has been working with Mia to start with him - to help us teach "Cowboy" that humans are smart, caring, and fair. I think if we can convince him of that, he'll become a truly outstanding horse.

I think you could take a crop and smack a horse so hard that the hair would come off, and the horse would accept it without question - IF the horse knew WHY you were upset, and that the punishment fit the crime. My mare has taken the hair off of both geldings at times, and drawn blood even - yet she is the one they go to when things are scary. The pity is that so many train their horse, not too harshly, but inconsistently or disproportionately or too late after the offense.

Horses can handle pain. They cannot handle erratic behavior, bullies, or confusion. IMHO.


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## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

fftopic:


bsms said:


> I think I should take up smoking. *Please don't take up smoking. I smoke, and I do on occasion take a smoke break to wonder wth Rascal is thinking.:lol:*
> 
> *...properly broken at all*....


Thank you for a :idea: moment.
I didn't get why my Rascal could be so, flighty, spookish, stupid (?) sometimes, but rock solid at others. I took for granted he KNEW what I was asking. Considering he was 5 then, not the 3yr old I was told; he was seriously injured but had a clean PPE from the previous owner (DUH me) I have not the _faintest clue_ as to _why_ I took the training info that I got with him as _true_.... (Yes, I do believe I am an idiot sometimes. *sigh*)


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

FYI - Trooper was raised on a ranch owned by one of my roommates from college. After we bought him, we needed time to get things ready for a horse. During that time, he was loaned to a ranch in Colorado that promised to work him & feed him.

He arrived back a few months later with the holes in his sides. They were fresh. My GUESS is that some cowboy got mad for some reason, and decided to deliberately spur him bloody to teach him a lesson. The Colorado ranch didn't provide an explanation, and they aren't on speaking terms now...but Trooper is, by nature, very submissive to humans.

If it had a valid training purpose, I might be able to accept some blood. But the ranch in Colorado took a horse known for his willingness to get the job done, and turned him into a horse that was afraid humans would go ballistic on him. And that, combined with the injuries to the horse, says abuse to me.

Hitting with a wiffle bat while angry? That seems stupid, but isn't at the level Trooper received.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Either way i do not think it should be classified as abuse if the horse is left with welts or marks if _the horse_ brought it to that level.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

The horse that I grew up on, Buck, was one of those horses that was bull headed and afraid of nothing. In all my years, I've never seen another horse like him and my Dad said that he never saw another like him either (which is saying something).

Buck had an outlaw nature that was downright dangerous in his younger years. He feared absolutely nothing and when he decided that he didn't want to do something, there was nothing in this world that could make him do it. He was one of those horses that Dad had to resort to training through pain and intimidation because he wouldn't respond to anything else. Dad got this horse because his previous owners had a couple of their cowboys get hurt bad trying to handle Buck. Dad pulled up at their barn one day and they had Buck loaded on a killer truck with a load of fat cattle, they had every intention of having him killed because he was dangerous. Dad managed to talk them out of sending him to the killer and that's how Buck ended up at our barn.

He had scars across the bridge of his nose because he was kept in a tie-down made completely of 3/8 inch chain whenever he was ridden (it was one full piece that looped around his nose, went down and also looped around the cinch). If there was a snap or a piece of leather or nylon anywhere on the tie-down, he would fling his head and break it....then take you for a ride right over the top of anything that happened to be in his path no matter if it was fences, pickups, trailers, people, etc. The purpose of the tie-down was to keep him from being able to get his head over the top of anything because if he could get his head over it, he would climb it and you couldn't stop him.

After several years, Dad and Buck began to have a bit of....well, I won't call it trust or faith or respect....they came to an understanding of sorts LOL. Buck had his job and knew his job well and Dad would let him do his job with very little interference. That was the only way they maintained any semblance of a working relationship.

Dad never did like that horse and never enjoyed riding him...but together they won pretty much every competition they entered. That old buckskin horse paid for a good portion of the house I grew up in. Several years later, due to a combination of unusual events and childish fearlessness, Buck found his niche in life. Oddly enough, his niche was that of a bombproof child's horse.

I know that nobody can ever say that a horse is 100% bombproof, but this horse _was_. He was a very unique creature and I believe his fearlessness was due to his outlaw nature. For all the years that my Dad rode him and then all the years and hell that my brother and I put him through, I never saw him even flinch at something scary. When every other horse was absolutely freaking out around him, he would just stand there with a bored look on his face.

With kids and beginners, he was the exact polar opposite as he was with any experienced rider. He would go where they wanted at the speed they wanted with no hesitation. He actually walked completely through a barbed wire fence once because that's where Jason told him to go (Jason didn't see the wire). He tolerated (and actually seemed to enjoy) the uncontrolled thumping of our legs or the bumping of our busy hands.

Under my Dad's saddle, that horse was 16hh and 1500 pounds of obnoxious, almost uncontrollable, arrogance, but under a child's saddle, he was the only 100% trustworthy horse in the world.


Anyway, I'm sure I had a point to this big old rambling post when I started, but I tend to lose all train of thought when I start drifting down memory lane with old Buck LOL.

Here he is, the "outlaw" himself. Looks dangerous, don't he :wink::lol: ?


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## busysmurf (Feb 16, 2012)

K, interesting tidbit of info on the trailer incident trainer. It appears that there may b a few times that the person has been reported for excessive force. My thought is, if the YouTube poster would have done their homework BEFORE making accusations and had the facts first, the outcome / reception of the video would probably been different.

I will say that knowing more info than just a video has changed my opinion of that particular incident. BUT only after I had more info did I reconsider my position.

It's amazing how much more info will sway things one way or the other, LOL maybe more ppl should try it
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## busysmurf (Feb 16, 2012)

smrobs said:


> The horse that I grew up on, Buck, was one of those horses that was bull headed and afraid of nothing. In all my years, I've never seen another horse like him and my Dad said that he never saw another like him either (which is saying something).
> 
> Buck had an outlaw nature that was downright dangerous in his younger years. He feared absolutely nothing and when he decided that he didn't want to do something, there was nothing in this world that could make him do it. He was one of those horses that Dad had to resort to training through pain and intimidation because he wouldn't respond to anything else. Dad got this horse because his previous owners had a couple of their cowboys get hurt bad trying to handle Buck. Dad pulled up at their barn one day and they had Buck loaded on a killer truck with a load of fat cattle, they had every intention of having him killed because he was dangerous. Dad managed to talk them out of sending him to the killer and that's how Buck ended up at our barn.
> 
> ...


He's got a pink foot!!! Oh the horror!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

busysmurf said:


> He's got a pink foot!!! Oh the horror!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Don't you know, the pink hoof is the equivelant to a prison tat -- it indicats a true bad-to-the-bone kind of fellow!


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

:rofl: He was battling a couple of abscesses at the time.


Oh, wait, ****, that's probably abuse too, that he was forced to hold about 45 pounds of kid for 3 minutes while that picture was taken .


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## furbabymum (Dec 28, 2011)

I just thought I'd say I disagree with that. You punish so that you don't have to punish in the future. If you have to keep escalating you're punishing wrong. 


Winter said:


> Bsms, I have never been in a pen with an angry mare (thank God), so I don't know what I'd do (most likely run for the fence, lol). I can tell you from training dogs, though, that because a dog might bite another dog, that doesn't translate in how they communicate with people very well. So the point of training the way I do is to teach the dog a different way to react. Instead of hitting a dog for biting (and I'm not saying that's what you'd do, it's just an example), I would teach a different reaction than violence by using something other than more violence. Using force can stop a reaction, *but I've found that you usually have to keep using force again and again, often in escalation*.
> 
> It takes longer, but in my experience, they truly learn a different way of reacting. And it can teach people control as well. It's pretty cool, but it's not the only way.
> 
> ...


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## Winter (Apr 22, 2012)

Furbabymum, I'm talking about dogs when I say that. When I see people put a prong collar or a choke collar on a dog, for instance. They pop the collar, sometimes quite harshly, and the dog will stop what it's doing. But the dog does not connect his behavior with the correction. So pain will stop an action, but it doesn't teach a new behavior. Usually with dogs all it does is teach the dog to be unsure of how the human will act. 

So my point with that is with dogs, people who use corrections will almost always have to correct for the same thing again at some point. I've seen something similar in discussions about horses as well. Where people say they have to discipline them for the same thing that they've done before because the horse is testing them. Which means the horse didn't learn to do something other than that behavior. They just learned to stop at the time the correction was given, because they were in pain or fear. Just my opinion on training. And as I said, I've never trained a horse. 

And every animal is different. But for me personally, I try to always train to teach what I DO want, instead of punishing for what I don't. It works for me. With dogs anyway  I hope to get the opportunity to see if what I do works with horses. I've actually seen very cool videos of people clicker training horses. I have no idea how it works long term, but they can definitely learn behaviors that way.


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## furbabymum (Dec 28, 2011)

I know you're talking about dogs. I have 4 myself. I posted about whacking my dog upside the head for not stopping the crazy barking when instructed to. I only had to do it once. I punish for bad behavior and reward good behavior.



Winter said:


> Furbabymum, I'm talking about dogs when I say that. When I see people put a prong collar or a choke collar on a dog, for instance. They pop the collar, sometimes quite harshly, and the dog will stop what it's doing. But the dog does not connect his behavior with the correction. So pain will stop an action, but it doesn't teach a new behavior. Usually with dogs all it does is teach the dog to be unsure of how the human will act.
> 
> So my point with that is with dogs, people who use corrections will almost always have to correct for the same thing again at some point. I've seen something similar in discussions about horses as well. Where people say they have to discipline them for the same thing that they've done before because the horse is testing them. Which means the horse didn't learn to do something other than that behavior. They just learned to stop at the time the correction was given, because they were in pain or fear. Just my opinion on training. And as I said, I've never trained a horse.
> 
> And every animal is different. But for me personally, I try to always train to teach what I DO want, instead of punishing for what I don't. It works for me. With dogs anyway  I hope to get the opportunity to see if what I do works with horses. I've actually seen very cool videos of people clicker training horses. I have no idea how it works long term, but they can definitely learn behaviors that way.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Winter, your experience with dogs differs dramatically from mine. I normally use force of some type for correcting them, and they have always figured it out ASAP. They also get lots of love, and we're friends...but they have limits.

I don't beat them, torture them, etc - but bad behavior immediately gets them proportionate unpleasant experience.

Same works well with horses. If a horse crowds your space, immediate correction is needed. Horse society is based on dominance. They will test each others, and they will test a human. If the human backs down, the horse has just become dominant - and a dominant horse has the right to wallop the lower ranking horse.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

I just have to say this about "spooky" horses, although it is way off topic. I haven't had a bomb proof horse since I was a child (miss those guys). My mare wasn't bomb proof when she was a filly - but she _clearly_ had the potential to "get there". I was super pleased. She went the "bp" direction w/o a single hitch. Then, she was turned out w my gelding in mountain pasture. My gelding has always been a leader, and has lived a very long time unscathed, in part, by being forever "vigilant". Well, when I brought my mare home....surprise! She had adopted a lot of his "vigilant" (spooky) mannerisms"! She is a follower. She was not handled when out with him, and certainly never "abused". It took a while to get her completely back to her original level of "vigilance". I knew her and I knew what had happened, so I approached it from that angle.

So, the "spook" in horses is not always the product of abuse, exposure, or poor human training.


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## 94broncoxlt (Mar 31, 2012)

Missy, after three months of my QH being out with 2 uncatchable (and otherwise worthless) Scarabs, he too became uncatchable and hopped the pasture 5 ft fence to avoid capture. Now, he is out with an old Morgan and acting completely normal again. Seriously two different horses.


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## Winter (Apr 22, 2012)

Furbabymum and bsms, if it works for you that's fine.  There are different ways to train, and certainly using force will get results. I would never say that it doesn't, because it does. It's just not the way I personally prefer to get results. I've found using positive methods gets the better results anyway. My dog knows I will never, ever hit him. He respects me just fine, because I'm the best thing EVER to him. I lead firmly, and there are rules and boundaries. He respects me, because I enforce the rules. But I've never had to hit a dog, or use a special collar. Patience and understanding that they're not being "bad" is important. Barking to a dog is not something abnormal. So you have to be understanding of them trying to fit in a human world that doesn't want them to do things that come naturally when asked. That's how I train. I teach them what I'd prefer they do in that situation, instead of hitting them for doing something they don't think of as wrong. 

The only time I ever, ever break that rule is if they are about to do something to get themselves killed. I tackled a dog once that was about to run into a busy road, for instance. Saved his life but I don't think he or I either one liked that method. He was a family member's dog who they let run loose.

Thanks for staying civil by the way. Different methods of training can often be divisive. Maybe with horses I would fall under the "Natural Horsemanship" way of training? I kind of dislike that term, though.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Okay, I was thinking a few minutes ago when I was out building fence about the point of my whole novel I wrote earlier in this thread and remembered what it was supposed to be.

What can be considered an "abusive" level of treatment will vary from horse to horse. Buck required pain to make him change his tune, Denny requires someone who is soft and willing to "talk things out", Dobe just requires a slight bump to get his attention with whatever he is ignoring whether it's the bit, a rein, or a leg. If I rode Denny the way Dad had to ride Buck, Den would have killed the both of us trying to get away. If Dad rode Buck the way I rode Denny, Buck would have taken complete advantage and he would have gone right back on the killer truck and never would have become the horse that he ended up being.

So, a huge part of why it chaps my butt for people to take a questionable photo or 30 seconds of video and go to bleating is that you know _nothing else_ about the situation. Perhaps they have a horse like Buck, where the only option is what others might consider "abuse". But, when it's either that or let the horse kill you or someone else, which choice would you make?

The entire world is filled with nothing but a bunch of yellow coyotes that slink around in the shadows, watching everyone _else's_ business. When they see something that they don't agree with, they automatically take everything to the extreme....but they don't confront the situation the way that they should. Right then, either step up and intervene or report it to someone who will. But, oh no, people have to be nothing but a bunch of stinking cowards and put the video on youtube screaming "OMGABUSEWHATAHORRIBLEPERSON!!!" when they don't know the whole situation.

There has been more than one occasion when I've seen someone doing something with a horse that I thought was unacceptable. In every instance, I've either approached the person myself and scolded them/offered advice OR I went to the people who were running the show/rodeo/event that the person was competing in and told them what I saw and what I expected them to do about it.

If I had seen the guy spurring his horse in the shoulder because he wanted a faster turnaround and filmed it for the sole purpose of putting it on youboob in an attempt to get attention for _myself_ and not done anything about it at the time it was happening, then I would have been no better than the guy spurring his horse in circles.

I guess, long story short, if you (general you) see something happening that you think is abuse, then either grow a pair and do something about it _then_ or just let it go. Screaming and crying about something you saw at a show 4 months ago but did nothing about makes you look like nothing but a coward and a whiner.


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## furbabymum (Dec 28, 2011)

Well he was barking at someone I'd let into the house AFTER I told him to stop. I'll ask them if they need to go potty or if they want a treat but when I tell them something I expect immediate obedience. We had a tornado rip through our area a few years ago. Our basement is unfinished and we really don't go down there. Our dogs don't really like going down there. The stairs freak them out. However, when I said, "Boys come, down." they went. If they hadn't they could have died.
So, it is different strokes for different folks. I certainly don't think positive reinforcement is a bad thing. I just don't believe whacking an animal that deserves a whack is going to lead to progressively worse violence on either the animal or the humans part.


Winter said:


> Furbabymum and bsms, if it works for you that's fine.  There are different ways to train, and certainly using force will get results. I would never say that it doesn't, because it does. It's just not the way I personally prefer to get results. I've found using positive methods gets the better results anyway. My dog knows I will never, ever hit him. He respects me just fine, because I'm the best thing EVER to him. I lead firmly, and there are rules and boundaries. He respects me, because I enforce the rules. But I've never had to hit a dog, or use a special collar. Patience and understanding that they're not being "bad" is important. Barking to a dog is not something abnormal. So you have to be understanding of them trying to fit in a human world that doesn't want them to do things that come naturally when asked. That's how I train. I teach them what I'd prefer they do in that situation, instead of hitting them for doing something they don't think of as wrong.
> 
> The only time I ever, ever break that rule is if they are about to do something to get themselves killed. I tackled a dog once that was about to run into a busy road, for instance. Saved his life but I don't think he or I either one liked that method. He was a family member's dog who they let run loose.
> 
> Thanks for staying civil by the way. Different methods of training can often be divisive. Maybe with horses I would fall under the "Natural Horsemanship" way of training? I kind of dislike that term, though.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

94broncoxlt said:


> uncatchable (and otherwise worthless) Scarabs


Scarabs...:rofl:


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## 94broncoxlt (Mar 31, 2012)

Wait what? Whats wrong with beating an otherwise healthy dog? I have a 200 lb in tact male mastiff with double serated teeth, inch long claws, and a head way bigger than my own. You can better believe that if he would act up in any way towards a child or my child he would get the ******** beat out of the *****. When we first bought him, he decided to go after and try to eat my mini, luckily grabbed by his throat on the side of the mane instead of the other side - no blood drawn. He was dragging along with the pony in snow almost deep as the pony's legs for a minute or so with us trying are hardest to catch up. Luckily we got the dog off the pony before my Quarter came running rearing and ready to trample him. Have you ever seen a coyote go after something? Dogs are extremely capable of hurting humans, I don't see why quick and nessisary physical punishment as a 2nd resort is a problem?

P.S. Wrinkles had been untrained and neglected he is a completely different animal now that he is healthy and loved. With good training, patience, and the once in a blue moon physical punishment


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## MakeYourMark (Feb 10, 2012)

.Delete. said:


> I was recently riding a very green 2 yr old around at a quarter horse show. There was a woman recording, I'm not quite sure what exactly she was recording. But the mare bulked an started backing up out of nowhere she backed into 2 other horses which caused quite a scene. Just as I was considering over an undering an spuring her forward I looked over an the camera was on me. The horse was still backing in that moment so I took a breath an asked the horse to whoa. Once she stopped I asked her to go forward an she trotted off calmly.
> 
> Who knows what she was recording or why but I wasn't about to take a chance an put my bosses reputations on the line. Whenever I am riding around at a show I try my best to ride quiet an calmly. I feel if your going to really get after a horse it needs to be at home. Causing as scene in public is never good. Unless the situation really calls for it. Anything you do can be misconstrued into something it's not. Narrow minded ignorant people can be very dangerous.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well that was a more effective and sensible way to deal with it, right? Perhaps public scrutiny isn't all bad?

Granted, I know where everyone's coming from. But I tend to think that sometimes being out in the open where anyone can see you and everyone is judging you can be a good thing – it makes you think about what you're doing, and makes you want to do the right thing.

Food for thought


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Not always, instead of reprimanding the mare for baulking I just kind of ignored it. I didn't fix anything, frankly I feel I let her get away with it. Instead letting her know that baulking is bad and not tolerated I waited for her tantrum to be done then asked her to move forward. Kind of pushing the issue aside to be delt with at a later date.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

I train my dogs and horses pretty close the to same. I read the body language and situation then nip the behavior in the butt before it escalates. Just like my colts, my pups start out with getting spankings but as they grow and learn what is acceptable and what is not the need to do so lessens. Just like horses, dogs personalities and trainability(sp) varies, making the training vary. It's like the difference between training a Blue Heeler and a Border Collie. Heelers are very stubborn and we have a 18 year old that still is stubborn and will test his limits. My BC cross, I haven't had to lay a hand on her in years, she can tell by my body language and if needed, my tone of voice. So some could see me thumping the Blue Heeler on the head and call it abuse, or if you have ever seen my BC after I slightly raised my voice at her...you would of thought that I whooped the **** out of her with the end of my rope.
I also got a Chihuahua, everyone told me that I would hate having because they are difficult to train and have special needs. The little ****** didn't take no time to house train, learn several commands( sit, down, come) and tricks. He thinks he's a cowdog.

Same with my horses, my bay horse is always up in your face and you have to really smack him to get his attention. The gray mare is very sensitive and and all you have to do is give a little tug on the lead rope.

The punishment must be appropriate for the individual and the situation.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

^^^^^Wants a pic of chih cowdog!


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

This has "evolved" into an interesting thread...training and abuse. Everyone has their own "perspective" and method, often achieving the same end results, which is why it is so interesting.

I have one goal in mind for my dogs or horses - to make them a happy and integral part of my life for their life time (I do not tend to sell my horses or dogs). For that to happen they have to have manners and be pleasant for me and my family to be around and play/work/partner with. No one is born w manners or knowing a language, they have to be taught. In general, I have a very low threshhold for "reprimand" methods, so I have to take different routes from others. Different methods, but same result. 

I assume horses to be extremely intelligent. I treat them as if they have at least near human intelligence, emotions, and are just as much an "individual" as any human. It works for me. Other's methods work, and they don't treat them as their intellectual equal. Nothing wrong w their methods (so long as they don't cross the line of abusive) or their beliefs - they just differ from my own. 

I find true abuse repulsive - whether it is from a human or a bully in the herd. No one, horse or human, "leads" by fear, they simply get a response out of fear. As far as "20 second clips" - its just an annoyance when there is no abuse taking place, and a "help" when there is no excuse what-so-ever for "x" treatment, regardless of "the rest of the story". Its the age of video...it won't go away. The accused can always respond with a .... video.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Who are we to say what is right an wrong when it comes to animals communicating with each other? I don't see alpha horses as abusive. I don't view horses as abusive towards each other.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

COWCHICK77 said:


> I train my dogs and horses pretty close the to same. I read the body language and situation then nip the behavior in the butt before it escalates. Just like my colts, my pups start out with getting spankings but as they grow and learn what is acceptable and what is not the need to do so lessens. Just like horses, dogs personalities and trainability(sp) varies, making the training vary. It's like the difference between training a Blue Heeler and a Border Collie. Heelers are very stubborn and we have a 18 year old that still is stubborn and will test his limits. My BC cross, I haven't had to lay a hand on her in years, she can tell by my body language and if needed, my tone of voice. So some could see me thumping the Blue Heeler on the head and call it abuse, or if you have ever seen my BC after I slightly raised my voice at her...you would of thought that I whooped the **** out of her with the end of my rope.
> I also got a Chihuahua, everyone told me that I would hate having because they are difficult to train and have special needs. The little ****** didn't take no time to house train, learn several commands( sit, down, come) and tricks. He thinks he's a cowdog.
> 
> Same with my horses, my bay horse is always up in your face and you have to really smack him to get his attention. The gray mare is very sensitive and and all you have to do is give a little tug on the lead rope.
> ...


ITA - I approach the work with horses and dogs with a lot of the same philosophies and principals.


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## Winter (Apr 22, 2012)

I just want to add that humans are not dogs or horses, and they know we're not. So I have never fully grasped the "dogs bite each other so it's okay to use a prong or pop them". I don't very much care how a dog or horse would deal with another dog or horse. I care about how I choose to deal with them. And I personally choose to teach instead of correct. I get good results with this, so like I said, if I don't have to use pain or fear I'm not going to. I just don't see the point. 

I've always found it interesting to think of it from the perspective of training marine animals. How would you correct a whale that didn't go forward when asked? You can't. They had to find another way and they did. 

This isn't criticizing anyone else's methods by the way. I'm just showing the perspective behind my own.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Winter said:


> I just want to add that humans are not dogs or horses, and they know we're not. So I have never fully grasped the "dogs bite each other so it's okay to use a prong or pop them". I don't very much care how a dog or horse would deal with another dog or horse. I care about how I choose to deal with them. And I personally choose to teach instead of correct. I get good results with this, so like I said, if I don't have to use pain or fear I'm not going to. I just don't see the point.
> 
> I've always found it interesting to think of it from the perspective of training marine animals. How would you correct a whale that didn't go forward when asked? You can't. They had to find another way and they did.
> 
> This isn't criticizing anyone else's methods by the way. I'm just showing the perspective behind my own.


Good luck with that. I future their piers have been doing it for generations, and I and a relative beginner. I figure they probably know something I don't, and prefer to look at how they treat each other. And really good luck with the whales. Let me know when that will be on Nat. Geo. OK?:wink:


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

I look at your comparison of whales to horses the same as draft horses to light horses. If the big ones give you problems you get rid of it. Too big to fight with. I can imagine you cannot make a whale do anything, but if there was a whale that had problems with training and was difficult, they wouldn't waste their time. Same with draft horses, they are simply too big to be nasty and most people don't waste their time. I used to go to slaughter auction yards alot an would find hundreds of ill tempered drafts. My dad always says "the reason why drafts are known as gentle giants is because they kill off most of the mean ones".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

If you try to bribe a horse by feeding it every time it does what you want, you're going to need a budget similar to that of killer whale trainers. You would also set yourself up to have pushy, disrespectful horses - and those are dangerous.

If all I wanted was for a horse to run around in a pen and stop by and get food from me, then Sea World has a lot of relevance. But if I want a horse to face things it doesn't want to face, and go work hard labor on a hot day, or in the rain, bribing isn't going to cut it.

I don't need a horse that does tricks.

If you want to train an animal to learn a new trick, then positive reinforcement only works pretty well. But if I want my dog to know he isn't supposed to bark for fun in the backyard, I'm not going to try to distract him every time. Instead, I'm going to do what another dog would do - attach negative results to undesirable behavior. And the dog will understand that, because dogs (and horses) do that all the time. It is a mode of communication they know, understand, and accept.

Done promptly, consistently and in proportion, I've never seen any down side. Horses and dogs are not fearful of a human who does that. Instead, they seek him out. They trust him. They WANT to be with him.

Kids are the same way. They ADORE someone who sets fair rules and enforces them promptly and fairly.

" if I don't have to use pain or fear I'm not going to"

I'm one of the least experienced people here, but I haven't used fear & pain. If a horse invades my space and I pop him in the ribs or shoulder, it doesn't hurt the horse. My hand will break long before his ribs do. Even if I use a crop, it doesn't cause significant pain. I don't beat my horse bloody with a crop. I don't remove hair or skin. Nothing I do to the horse is 1/10th as painful as what my mare does. The one time I got mad and kicked my horse from the ground, I limped for a week. Mia, on the other hand, didn't seem to even notice my kick.

And horses accept it and understand it, because that is how they communicate with each other a hundred times every day.

When you are on a trail, or working a horse somewhere, they need to accept you as leader. That goes well beyond teaching them tricks. When faced with something scary, they need to trust that you can keep them safe. And they won't trust a wimp.

And if you never do anything negative to a horse, he'll figure you are a wimp. And horses don't mind kicking a wimp's butt...


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## Winter (Apr 22, 2012)

Well the point is that you don't fight with them, because obviously you will lose. The point is there is a way besides being physical, and that includes teaching them another way besides being physical themselves. It may not work with them all, but then again, it might. 

Franknbeans, I...don't really know what you're saying. But you can see videos of how they train marine animals on youtube. 

Anyway, I think I'll back away from the thread now, lol. I love talking different methods with people, and advocating for positive training. But sometimes I feel like people think if you don't hit an animal you're letting them walk all over you. I'll leave one last example.

Do you all know of the Michael Vick fighting dogs? They went to Best Friends Animal Society in Utah (a fantastic place that I hope to do my Vet Tech externship at), and you can actually see them being rehabilitated on the show DogTown. Most people wanted those dogs put down, because the long held belief was that fighting dogs are not safe to be adopted out. Best Friends trainers used positive methods and now almost all of them have been adopted out. Many to homes with children. A few are now even therapy dogs, and one that had a lot of trouble just earned her CGC not long ago.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"It may not work with them all, but then again, it might."

I'll be honest with you. I haven't met a "positive only" trained dog or horse that I would want to own. YMMV.


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## Winter (Apr 22, 2012)

bsms, oh I use negative results. Just not of the hitting variety. Positive reinforcement being thought of as bribery is the BIGGEST myth positive trainers face, because that's what many view it as. But it's not. If it were the dogs I train would only work for me when I had food in my hand.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

Winter said:


> I just want to add that humans are not dogs or horses, and they know we're not.


This makes me think of the "emulate the alpha mare" philosophy that was "in vogue" a while back, still is w some. Some took this to extremes as well as wore it out. I am very sure that my horses can clearly see I am not a mare. I think "leader" is a much shorter, to the point, and appropriate term.


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## Winter (Apr 22, 2012)

bsms, you haven't met my dog


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Everyone uses _some_ positive training, regardless of whether you train dogs, horses, or kids.

The only thing is, pure positive training is no more balanced than pure negative training in the long run.

IMHO, training needs to be balanced between the positive and the negative. If a horse tries his best to do what I'm asking, even if he doesn't know how to do it exactly right, I let him stand for a few minutes and relax, I'll give him a scratch on his neck or his rump and offer him a quiet word of thanks. On the other hand, if he tries to buck me off because he's fresh or because he's ****ed, then I'm _going_ to make his mouth sting and then work his butt off in small circles until he thinks the entire world is uphill. 

_That_ is balanced training, he learned that obedience = reward/rest and he learned that doing something he _knows_ he's not supposed to do = punishment.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

Well, one could describe Tom Dorrance's philosophy as introducing a lot more positive into the arena. He never said never get after a horse, though, and I tend to believe that is what winters is saying.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

smrobs said:


> Everyone uses _some_ positive training, regardless of whether you train dogs, horses, or kids.
> 
> The only thing is, pure positive training is no more balanced than pure negative training in the long run.
> 
> ...


I agree. There is no such thing as effective training is that is "only positive" or "only negative". I am just very slow to take out the big guns.  I had a gelding that would buck for no apparent reason - dead tired, fresh, so-so...what not. Tight circles, nada. Spinning....I'd get dizzy before he noticed we were rotating. Nothing worked, and bucking is just so "not fun". So, I borrowed a thin twisted wire bit. He had an extremely soft mouth, I never needed to ride him on the bit and knew the only time he'd feel that puppy was the next time my teeth felt like they were being jarred out in a buck. Of course he wouldn't do it again right away.. it took several rides..but, bingo! He started and quit cold when he felt all the pressure I could deliver on that bit. But, I would otherwise _never_ use a twisted wire bit and I consider them "extreme"...and most would call it "cruel". I think people like myself "lose time" in some problem area exhausting every possible "kinder" solution before they say "okay, plan B", but - make up for it on other trials. Like I said before, it seems everyone has a different approach, yet arrive at the same level in the end.


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## Winter (Apr 22, 2012)

As I said, I've never actually trained a horse. I am saying I would never hit dog, because there is no need for that. A horse may be different to train, and as I've never trained a horse I don't know what I would do. I would need to spend time seeing their reactions and how they learn, how the perceive touch, and what truly hurts them and what just gets their attention. I'll tap my dog on the shoulder or nudge him with my foot, because that would feel the exact same to me, and there is no pain or fear. 

Now y'all have made me curious. Are there any horse trainers that don't use physical corrections? I've watched Buck Brannaman and I didn't have a problem with a single thing he did, which included using that flag thing he carries. Because he clearly did it in a way that didn't hurt the horse.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

You'd be strained to find a trainer that doesn't use physical corrections at all. What would you do if a horse bites you? Tap it on the shoulder an say no? What about if it kicked you? 

Even those natural horsemanship gods use some kind of physical correction. 

Horses are physical creatures, you cannot bribe a horse from on top of it to go forward. Horses learn by making mistakes and being corrected.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Winter-just to clarify, I was saying that horses have been "training" other horses for thousands of years. THey use enough pressure to get the job done, and sometimes that means kicking and biting. It has worked for them....I use the same basic principle. Use enough pressure to get the job done. That said, if my horse or my dog does something dangerous, like biting, the wrath of god comes down on them. Quickly, with enough clout to get their attention, and then we get on with life.

IMO, training whales really isn't relevant, but that is just me, other than perhaps the obvious, consistency in everything, including punishment and reward...and I have no idea how to punish a whale. That is why I have nothing to say about their training.......;-) (I have never actually DONE it)


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I don't know anyone who uses NO physical corrections. However, I don't know anyone who uses them exclusively, or even as the primary. From my limited experience, physical corrections are used for dangerous situations - biting, kicking, etc.

There is another layer that you may or may not consider physical correction. If a horse crowds me, he'll get a shove on his ribs. That is normally all it takes, and it involves no pain at all to the horse. If that didn't get the response, then he would get a sharp poke in the ribs or shoulder. That is sharper, but a mild jab with the end of a tool or the tip of a fist is NOT going to cause pain to a horse. They will FEEL it, but not be hurt. That would be a physical correction in my book, but it doesn't involve hurting a horse.

Most physical corrections don't involve contact. When our newest horse crowded me a bit at feeding this morning, I pointed the end of the poop-scoop (it does double duty as a hay rake) at him - and he moved off. It was a threat, just as when my mare pins her ears. And since it got the desired response, that was the end. But if he had ignored it, I would have poked him HARD with the end, because a pushy horse at feeding is dangerous. They can hurt you quite bad without even trying, and if it isn't stopped, it will develop a horse that feels free to beat you up. 

If a horse has never been taught to be patient at feeding, then a whip or some other weapon is needed. In a confined space, a horse can break your bones without knowing he did it. And dominance during feeding translates well into 'behave around me' elsewhere.

During regular training, most people do nothing that causes a horse actual pain. If I kick a horse with my heels while riding, the horses knows it - but he is not hurt in any way. The common sources of applying pain would be spurs, reins or a crop. Even then, it normally doesn't involve 'pain'. I've never yet hit a horse with a crop (which I've only done maybe 3-4 times in my life, and never with my own horses) or jerked hard enough on the reins to get a squeal out of the horse, or even an angry/upset response. My reins aren't long enough to slap my horse, but then, my horses do NOT have problems with going forward. Their problems are all in slowing/stopping...

The picture below is of my riding Cowboy the day after we got him. He had run off with my daughter-in-law, and I got on him after her. He did 10+ laps at a gallop, and didn't want to come to a complete stop. He knew the cues, but he didn't want to obey. So we went thru the sequence - seat, relax, light pull, slightly harder pull - and ended up at the hardest pull I'm willing to use. This photo was taken as he did a full lap with that pressure...and then he stopped. I immediately released the reins, and he took off again. So I went thru the full sequence again, and ended up at this level of pressure...and he stopped after about 30 yards. Released, bolted, repeat.

After a half dozen times, he decided to stop at a milder level of pressure. A few more times, and he stopped and stood still...well, with a lot more pressure than my other horses, but much less than before.

A few minutes later, my daughter-in-law rode him again, using the same idea. Within minutes, he was riding OK. 

I don't think I caused him significant pain. If I did, it was because he choose to ignore the entire sequence of signals first.

I cannot make a horse do anything. I can only give him choices. And if he chooses hard things, then that is HIS choice. Not mine. And if I am consistent, then he will eventually figure out it is easier to respond to gentle cues than to firmer ones. And that is the goal of every trainer I've met - to get a horse who responds to slight changes in your seat, legs, balance and hands.

Pictures from Cowboy's first day here:



















Those pictures were taken about 15 minutes apart...


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## Cinder (Feb 20, 2011)

> The common sources of applying pain would be spurs, reins or a crop. Even then, it normally doesn't involve 'pain'. I've never yet hit a horse with a crop (which I've only done maybe 3-4 times in my life, and never with my own horses)


I hope this doesn't sound rude, but I wasn't aware that a crop could really cause pain? When I've ridden horses with a crop (only about four times in my life, and I only ride lesson horses) I was instructed to just give a light tap on their shoulder. It's been the same with people I've watched. Now, I could understand causing pain if you're beating them with it...but not a light tap, which is more to cause annoyance and provide back up for your aids (if I understand it correctly). Please correct me if I'm wrong.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

No, Cinder, you aren't wrong. The only way to cause pain with a crop/whip/spurs is if you are really rearing back and striking hard.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Iv seen people leave welts on horses from crops before. The horse usually deserved it every time


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## busysmurf (Feb 16, 2012)

I just abused a horse....

I was giving my horse her grain out in the pasture (she got let out before she was able to finish it). Anyway, she's in the same pasture as a few VERY large horses. Obviously, they wanted what was in the bucket. Well one of them started getting pushy about it & started pinning their ears at my horse & then at me as well as starting to nip at me.

You better bet I slapped that one as hard as I could on the shoulder with my hand. I'm the B**** mare, not that horse!!! I don't care if I'm smaller than it's ear. It worked, but I can guarantee that it hurt my hand A LOT more than it hurt the horse!

Where were the video cameras!!:twisted::twisted::twisted::wink:


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

A three yr old mare suddenly decided to go over top of me. She felt the sting of a hard whack on the neck which turned her away. She tried a second time and got it again. She was respectful after that.


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## furbabymum (Dec 28, 2011)

I don't have the physical strength to hurt this dog. I could probably hit him until my arms hurt and he'd not notice. This pic is us on the way to the vet. He got pink eye. He HATED the spray. He'd run like hell to escape from me. So, I ended up holding an ear. Took him a few times of having his ear remain while his body was moving away before he learned to just accept treatment. When he stopped running I stopped holding his ear. I don't feel guilty at all.

Same thing right now for a horse I have. She's being treated for ear mites and a cut on her leg. First time I put the stuff in her ears she whipped her head around and knocked my father in law clean over. He knocked her right back. Haven't had a problem since.


Winter said:


> As I said, I've never actually trained a horse. I am saying I would never hit dog, because there is no need for that. A horse may be different to train, and as I've never trained a horse I don't know what I would do. I would need to spend time seeing their reactions and how they learn, how the perceive touch, and what truly hurts them and what just gets their attention. I'll tap my dog on the shoulder or nudge him with my foot, because that would feel the exact same to me, and there is no pain or fear.
> 
> Now y'all have made me curious. Are there any horse trainers that don't use physical corrections? I've watched Buck Brannaman and I didn't have a problem with a single thing he did, which included using that flag thing he carries. Because he clearly did it in a way that didn't hurt the horse.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

To me, and as someone mentioned earlier...number one in my book is making sure a punishment is proportionate to the offense. Horses themselves, being highly intelligent, make a conscious effort to practice this "law". Once it goes over the line of proportionate...the treatment is getting "questionable" whether it is delivered by man or horse.

And, then there is "honest mistakes". I can't see being around horses long and not having one make an honest mistake that results in inadvertant injury to their owner. I let such errors go...they let mine go, in turn.


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## smokeslastspot (Jan 11, 2012)

I have not read all the reply's but I too have noticed the abundance of "abuse" videos and pictures of late. Most of it I find to be someone doing something not smart but not really abusive. 

I have seen abuse in person. The barn I leased my first horse from would not allow me to board him at another barn so until I got enough cash to buy him we had to stay where we were. The time I spent there was horrible but I was very attached to him and would not leave him alone in that place. After a year myself and several of the neighbors had contacted the authorities enough times and with enough evidence to have the woman's animals taken from her. Somehow she got wind of it and moved out of state with the animals before they could be seized.

Some of the abuse we reported her for was: riding with a 2x4 and hitting the horses in the face if they misbehaved. Tying up horses in the wash stall and beating them with chain if she had a bad ride. Depriving them of food if they were too slow for her that day. Not treating serious wounds properly because it was the horses own fault (so she said). The list went on and on, blood was a regular occurrence there. That was abuse. 

The last time I saw this woman was a few days after I received my horses reg. papers. (I had not expected my parents to surprise me with the money to buy him for my birthday and so had not seriously been looking at other barns, thinking I was stuck there for quite some time still) The woman was on the ground bleeding profusely with a clearly broken jaw and most likely several broken ribs as well after one of the horses went berserk and flipped over on her on a concrete parking pad after running though a fence. And I was not sad or sympathetic at all as I walked past her and left her laying on the ground for her husband to deal with. 

I borrowed a trailer that day from my dads coworker and begged a family friend to let me keep my horse in their back yard until I could find a real stable to keep him. After being in that place for so long when I see video of someone shouting ABUSE! over someone doing something stupid I can only shake my head.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

smokeslastspot said:


> The last time I saw this woman was a few days after I received my horses reg. papers. (I had not expected my parents to surprise me with the money to buy him for my birthday and so had not seriously been looking at other barns, thinking I was stuck there for quite some time still) The woman was on the ground bleeding profusely with a clearly broken jaw and most likely several broken ribs as well after one of the horses went berserk and flipped over on her on a concrete parking pad after running though a fence. And I was not sad or sympathetic at all as I walked past her and left her laying on the ground for her husband to deal with.
> 
> .


Poetic justice is rare...so it is to be celebrated.


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