# Rearing?!? Circus?!?



## Arab123 (Jun 25, 2009)

How can i teach my horse too rear? I dont waNT HIM TO REAR WHEN RIDING JUST ON THE GROUND! and any circus training tips?


----------



## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Why do you want to teach him to rear? There are a few riders on here who can give you good tips but one of the dangers of teaching a horse to rear is that it can become a problem more than just a cute trick.


----------



## Arab123 (Jun 25, 2009)

ok well i would like to train him to do that and put on shows


----------



## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

You want to be a circus?


----------



## Arab123 (Jun 25, 2009)

no just kinda train my horse like there horses


----------



## AussieDaisyGirl (May 21, 2009)

I seriously doubt many people here will give you advice on how to teach it.
It's a very dangerous trick, and if you ever sell or rehome your horse the new owner may not know about it, so on and so forth.


----------



## BarrelBaby98 (Aug 16, 2009)

Hey this is off topic but i am kinda new and i dont know how to set a quote what do i do????? thanks


----------



## AussieDaisyGirl (May 21, 2009)

Hit the "quote" button on the bottom of the post you'd like to quote


----------



## Calamity Jane (Mar 16, 2009)

Before you ever teach a horse any trick....especially rearing....it's very important that you already have a horse that is very well broke.That is...that the horse understands 100% that when any pressure is applied (be it lead line or rein) that the horse gives (yields) to that pressure. 

If the horse has any tendency to resist, then that needs to be addressed first. 

As it's been said here....rearing is dangerous partly because you're teaching a horse to balance himself on his hind legs, and because unless you really know what you're doing and your timing is good enough....and you know and understand that you must have a pattern set up so there's a definite cue to mean rear up....you can accidentily cue your horse to rear and get hurt or get the horse hurt.

The trainer that taught me how to teach a rear up, taught his horse to rear from the ground. Well, guess what? When he cued him from the saddle for something else (not rearing) the horse reared by accident. So, doesn't matter if you only teach the horse to rear from the ground, he may still rear up under saddle.

You'll be turning the rear up into a cue. It's now an option for the horse to find a release of pressure. It's one option other than go forward, back up, stop, turn left or right....he can say, "do you want this?" and rear up when you don't want him to.

Which is why it's a good idea to have a trick horse and have a riding horse. Don't make your riding horse your trick horse, unless you are okay with riding a rearing horse. If that doesn't worry you at all, then by all means, teach the rear up (if the horse and you are ready).

I'm not going to post here how to do it, but I will direct you to a trick trainer named Allen Pogue who has a DVD out about rearing:
http://www.imagineahorse.com


----------



## ZiggyKlepto (Aug 23, 2009)

Don't do it!!!!! Bandit used to have a rearing problem and it is the worst thing you can have a horse do. He came down on the back of my head once and it was absolutely terrifying. (as an update, he was sent to the trainer, problem solved) There's no reason to teach it unless it is a circus hores, and a really bad idea unless you're an experienced professional. Please please don't try to do it!


----------



## Arab123 (Jun 25, 2009)

well he is a 22 yr old arabian. He is 100% broke and I have been riding for about 5 years


----------



## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

If you have a lot of experience with horses then it would be a fun trick. i don't think it would be terribly dangerous and won't make your horse have a rearing problem. In fact if your horse did have a rearing problem that would be a method to control it. Like teaching a dog that barks a lot "speak". People used to say that teaching your horse to lay down would get them laying down whenever they wanted to but we know that's not true. I agree that the horse should be very well broke and you need to make the cue very clear and somehting you won't be likely to inadvertenly do. Every time we teach our horses something new (even circus tricks like bowing or rearing) it strenghtens the bond and increases the horses trainability.


----------



## Zab (Oct 4, 2008)

Let people teach their horses what they want. It's only a problem if you do it wrong. For one..horses can already rear perfectly. You're only teaching a cue for it.
The problem is that they might confuse the cue, in which case you need to re-teach and that can be difficult.

Let's face it, most horses that rears dagerously and as a protest, did it without anyone teaching them too.


----------



## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

at 22 I don't think I'd teach him to rear. I'd be afraid it would cause too much added stress on his back and joints, but that's just my opinion. Also, as someone that owns a rearer, unless your horse has the perfect mind, I personally would advice against it. It can be very dangerous.


----------



## savvylover112 (Jul 17, 2009)

farmpony84 said:


> at 22 I don't think I'd teach him to rear. I'd be afraid it would cause too much added stress on his back and joints, but that's just my opinion. Also, as someone that owns a rearer, unless your horse has the perfect mind, I personally would advice against it. It can be very dangerous.


I agree completly with farmpony even the owning a rearer bit I wouldnt do it but that is just my opinion


----------



## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Just as a side note, I would never buy a known rearer. Ever. So if you ever have to sell your horse, know that the market for an old horse that rears is next to nil. 
Please do not do it.


----------



## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

JustDressageIt said:


> Just as a side note, I would never buy a known rearer. Ever. So if you ever have to sell your horse, know that the market for an old horse that rears is next to nil.
> Please do not do it.


I bought a known rearer as a 3 year old. Slapped a command in place and thought it was cool... Until I realized that he also reared when he was excited, bored, mad, sad.... AND on command. As he got older, he picked up the "I'm going to rear from the ground now because I don't want to be led to the barn" routine. 

He is 25 now and will still rear if he has the mind too... He was my first horse so I made alot of mistakes with him. One reason I never sold him is partly because I felt he was dangerous to someone that did not know him or how to deal with a rear and that he could potentially hurt someone, OR that someone would more then likely lose their temper with him and beat him, punish him, send him to auction or put him down as a dangerous animal. Dont' get me wrong, I love him dearly but he is mine and only mine.


----------



## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

*Safety issue*

Teaching a horse to rear, among other things has its time and place. Unless you have a lot of experience dealing with horses, I wouldn't be teaching your horse to rear. I've been with horse, trained babies and youngsters for 13 years and I don't know that I would even take on that task.

I have a miniature horse I will be teaching rearing to but that's a totally different ball game.

Teaching a horse rearing is asking for trouble and you're going to get yourself and your horse in big trouble because one day, you're going to ask him to do something he won't want to do and he's going to revert to that "cute trick" you taught him and he's going to rear.

There are dozens of other really neat tricks you can teach him that are safe, go for those.


----------



## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

I agree, Kelly! What about "smile" or even "bow" or "fetch"? I will look at a horse that bows, smiles or fetches and go "wow great training" before I will ever commend rearing.

Except perhaps with a mini haha


----------



## Zab (Oct 4, 2008)

I swear, somewhere in the world there is people shaking their heads and saying "they teach their horses to jump? That can't be good! Someday it will decide not to stay in the pasture and jump out! Or what if the horse decides to jump over random things when they ride?"

There's a lot of bad habits with horses. Some horses will run off with you.. does that stop you from teaching them a canter cue? Some horses will stop and refuse to go..do you refuse to teach them a halt then? Some will start backing, so you better not teach them that.

There was a time when it was very common to teach riding horses to rear, jump off the ground, kick etc. Those horses didn't do it ''because they wanted to get out of work''. Just like any horse that know how to canter won't take off just because it get's annoyed. Those who does would have done it anyway. It's natural for them.

And those that are trained poorly (think of small ponies trained by kids without proper guidance) they often have bad habits, not because trhe kids taught them things, but because they thaught it in a bad way.

It's much better to spread the safe way to teach things, than letting those who wants to do it, experiment on their own. Because they will.


----------



## RiddlesDarkAngel5 (Jun 2, 2009)

JustDressageIt said:


> I agree, Kelly! What about "smile" or even "bow" or "fetch"? I will look at a horse that bows, smiles or fetches and go "wow great training" before I will ever commend rearing.
> 
> Except perhaps with a mini haha


those are much more manageable tricks. and their just as fun to watch as a rear.


----------



## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

Zab said:


> I swear, somewhere in the world there is people shaking their heads and saying "they teach their horses to jump? That can't be good! Someday it will decide not to stay in the pasture and jump out! Or what if the horse decides to jump over random things when they ride?"
> 
> There's a lot of bad habits with horses. Some horses will run off with you.. does that stop you from teaching them a canter cue? Some horses will stop and refuse to go..do you refuse to teach them a halt then? Some will start backing, so you better not teach them that.
> 
> ...


We obviously have different views and likely different methods of training, and we are indeed in different parts of the world :wink: which I think will differ from the American way of thinking.Having said that it was a great post and I agree with a lot of things you said. 

A lot of the things we teach horses, are things that have no other way around it. You will have to teach your horse those canter cues to be able to ride, you will have to teach him to pick up his feet for foot care etc etc BUT teaching a horse to rear IS NOT a skill your horse requires. 

You would not be teaching your dog to dog fight because it's a "neat trick", or as in some people for an income. It can turn into(and usually does) a behavior problem that can become very dangerous even in most benign and settled settings.

There are so many things out there that would would be so much safer, why not experiment with those instead of those ones that have much higher odds of hurting or killing someone?

Cheers


----------



## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> There's a lot of bad habits with horses. Some horses will run off with you.. does that stop you from teaching them a canter cue? Some horses will stop and refuse to go..do you refuse to teach them a halt then? Some will start backing, so you better not teach them that.


There are plenty of horses who use bolting/backing up/stopping as a way to avoid pressure. The key id that these are things that can be managed relatively easily by most people. Rearing is a different story. It is dangerous to horse and rider alike.


----------



## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Zab, we have had this discussion many times.

Rearing, when the average Joe teaches it, is in an unbalanced manner that is easily ruined; it is so easy for a horse to rear too close to someone on the ground or flip over while a rider is on board.

It is NOT safe for the average rider to attempt. 

But hey it's your life, I just hope I don't accidentally buy a "kid safe" horse for my school one day that has been trained by someone to rear and it manifests itself one day while a beginner is riding.


----------



## Zab (Oct 4, 2008)

Jusdressageit; yes we have, so why start it over? You've said yourt point of view, I'm not allowed to say mine?

I hope you do buy a kid safe rearer, that way you might notice that horses that learnt a cue for rearing doesn't necessary do it for the least reason or protest. I have ridden lots of safe rearing horses, none of them rears without a command. No matter how stressful the situation.


----------



## Zab (Oct 4, 2008)

My2geldings: You don't have to ride at all, and you can ride in just walk and trot. Gatininfg people ride in just walk and gait, so why not? You don't have to teach a horse jumping either but nobod frowns at that.. the reason ''it's not necessary'' is probably the lousiest one of all.
______________
Teaching the horse to rear, with a good method, is not more dangerous than riding generally is. To teach it to rear by stressing/annoying it to rear as a protest, like many who try it does, is not a good method as that enforces rearing as a good way to protest to things. Asking the horse to rear by letting it know what you want, without annoying it, doesn't trigger that at all. Just like calmly asking for canter doesn't trigger the flight response, while scaring the horse to cantr does - and makes it easier for the horse to run as soon as it's dcared or hear something.

"the average Joe'' shouldn't train a horse at all, without good help. With no experience on a cantering horse and how to canter, you don't teach a gren horse to do it. With no experience on a rearing horse and how to sit and prevent it, you don't teach a horse to rear. It goes for everything.
________________________
Oh, JDI one more thing; One of the rearing horses was taught the wrong way and couldn't back up on cue anymore, but she still never reared without getting the cue (which was the same for backing). And no, the owners never sold her butkept her for the rest of her life. She was at a ridingschool for kids most of the time tho, but as the teachers knew about her ''problem'' they didn't have her in lessons that included backing. She newver once reared dangerously or hurt the kids, I don't even think she reared with them when they asked her too behind the teachers back.


----------



## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

I consider a horse that you cannot ask to back up without it rearing a dangerous horse, and one I would want re-trained by a professional pronto. A horse that cannot back is... well... not very useful. 
Jumping is NOT dangerous. The horse can't jump without a fence in front of it. The horse usually doesn't jump to get out of work. Once a horse figures out that rearing scares riders and rearing = less work, they latch on to that pretty **** quick. 
If a horse jumped a jump to .. uh.. get out of work, I would snatch that horse up in a second.
I don't understand how you can compare jumping to rearing. One is an undesired dangerous habit, NOT a discipline, and the other is a desired discipline. 
Rearing, especially one that's been taught with an improper cue, is very VERY hard to un-train. It CAN and DOES become dangerous, I don't care who you are. 
By the average Joe, I mean most riders on this board. They can w/t/c and jump little fences safely, it's not like they're super green. But ask them to teach a horse to rear and chances are they'd do it wrong. 99% of people on this board would say "pull back on the reins and kick." And you're right, if you're strong enough in your hands to annoy the horse enough to rear, then you've done it. 
Many people don't know how to cue it any other way. 
Zab, how did you train it? What is your cue? Has your horse EVER used the rear when you don't want him to?


----------



## Zab (Oct 4, 2008)

JustDressageIt said:


> I consider a horse that you cannot ask to back up without it rearing a dangerous horse, and one I would want re-trained by a professional pronto. A horse that cannot back is... well... not very useful.
> Jumping is NOT dangerous. The horse can't jump without a fence in front of it. The horse usually doesn't jump to get out of work. Once a horse figures out that rearing scares riders and rearing = less work, they latch on to that pretty **** quick.
> If a horse jumped a jump to .. uh.. get out of work, I would snatch that horse up in a second.
> I don't understand how you can compare jumping to rearing. One is an undesired dangerous habit, NOT a discipline, and the other is a desired discipline.
> ...


It wasn't a successful training to that hore no, since it couldn'rt bavck. But it was never dangerous. (It never, ever reared hiigh to even be the least dangerous for one, and it didn't rear at all when the kids tried to make it rear 'to be cool'. It was a stubborn horse and needed really strong cues to do it, she just stood still if you asked her to back.)

Jumping isn't undangerous, and rearing can be desired or else people wouldnä't teach it. Some diciplines, like academic dressage, does have rearing included, along with lots of way more dangerous moves. Circus acts have rearing horses etc. Point is, lots of people do teach their horses to rear and never have a problem with it. The people having problems with it are the ones who doesn't know how to do it correctly. Which is partly because it's so ''forbidden'' and impossible to get good information about.
Most people on this board is super green - when it comes to rearing. What they know about other things doesn't really matter.

I never taught Crow to rear from the saddle, because I realized I didn't have a safe enough cue and I have more things to work on first. I have however ridden other horses that was trained - I'm not sure exactly how, but from the ground first and in a dressage-manner of levade-ish rearing- and they did it usually by squeesing the legs, tip your pelvis, lift the rein a little and give the command with voice and/or leg.

I have however taught Crow to rear from the ground, the cue is to raise my arms in the air and say ''up'' sharply. He has never reared on me when leading him or in other circumstanses, no matter the situation. He has however reared as a protest/question during riding when he was still very green, but not in the same manner as when asked from the ground and I am positive that those two times had nothing to do with his rearing-from-ground training. The situations wasn't alike, and he has never done it as a protest otherwise. And well. It's just not the sae thing. Except those two times, he has never done it when not asked.


----------



## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Zab said:


> It wasn't a successful training to that hore no, since it couldn'rt bavck. But it was never dangerous. (It never, ever reared hiigh to even be the least dangerous for one, and it didn't rear at all when the kids tried to make it rear 'to be cool'. It was a stubborn horse and needed really strong cues to do it, she just stood still if you asked her to back.)
> _*This horse was never successfully untrained out of the rear then. Rearing, when a person doesn't know how to deal with it is dangerous. You say this horse was a school horse. What if a kid accidentally cued her to rear (or... back as you said) and the horse reared, kid freaks out and clings on to reins and the horse's belly, horse gets frustrated with this contact and pressure, and goes higher ... and higher... *_
> _*It is SO easy for rearing to become very dangerous.* _
> 
> ...


My responses above in bold and blue.


----------



## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

*Ridiculous*



Zab said:


> You don't have to teach a horse jumping either but nobod frowns at that.. the reason ''it's not necessary'' is probably the lousiest one of all.


What's lousy, is you comparing a riding discipline with a dangerous trick that serves no purpose.



Zab said:


> To teach it to rear by stressing/annoying it to rear as a protest, like many who try it does, is not a good method as that enforces rearing as a good way to protest to things.


 So I guess you can change animal instinct and behavior? I NEED YOUR NUMBER! you realize you could make millions $$$$. Had I ever known all it took was to tell my horse he's not allowed to rear, oh dear I would have saved myself injuries.



















Zab said:


> Asking the horse to rear by letting it know what you want, without annoying it, doesn't trigger that at all.


Obviously not...see the above videos.




Zab said:


> "the average Joe'' shouldn't train a horse at all, without good help. With no experience on a cantering horse and how to canter, you don't teach a gren horse to do it.


You CANNOT compare horse back riding with a trick that serves no purpose.

By teaching a horse to rear as a "trick", you teach them it's ok to do it. We have taught horses to go against their natural instinct to rear (normally used to show pain, aggression, frustration, excess energy etc etc in the wild)to make it safer for us. Once you show an animal that yes, go ahead and do "but only when I do this gesture" is ridiculous. A horse is a horse. If they feel they need to, now that you have crossed that carrier, they will go back to what they know which is rear to express what it is they are feeling.

Might I add, that you've just said yourself, that your horse has reared out of protest "only twice"...way to go!

I don't know what they do in your country, but here on the American continent(not saying that you do), but we don't raise circus horses. We train athletes that are conditioned and are expected to behave not teach them useless tricks.


----------



## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Zab, here is a picture of your horse rearing:








Here's why your rear is dangerous:
This horse is tense. He is scared. He is rearing because he's confused, you can see that in his posture. His back legs are unsteady and if he were to go just a little higher, even just a couple degrees, he could lose his balance or slip on the wet grass. He is not calm. He is not responding out of love. He is responding out of fear and confusion and is not balanced. This horse has thrown himself upwards and you can see the angle in his back. This horse is using its front legs to balance. 

This horse is in Levade, or how you want your horse to rear, as stated in other posts:








Look at how low he is to the ground. This is balance. This is the horse sitting on his hindquarters and tucking his front legs up. He is not trying to balance with his front legs, they are just simply out of the way. Now look at his back; it's almost level. Look at the horse's head and neck - not thrown upwards, but rather in frame. He is balanced. You could stick a sheet of ice under this horse and I doubt he'd falter. Ok, that's an exaggeration, but he is BALANCED. 

It takes upwards of a decade or more to teach the levade, and for good reason - it is HARD. Most horses NEVER reach this point, even when they're bred to do this stuff. 

Okey doke, I think I've said all I can in this thread. Unless someone has a specific question to me, I think I'm done.


----------



## Zab (Oct 4, 2008)

And you think that one day the levade horse just did a perfect levade? The picture you found of Crow was very old when he firslt learnt. No, it wasn't perfect balance as I've said already there, but it's not as bad as you say either. He'sa not rearing of feear or stress, but he is throwing himself to get up. And I'm not saying that that's supposed to be a levade either.

Besides, you just before this said that it's dangerous because the horse will rear without the cue nd so on as soon as it want to. Why you bring in Croq in this, when I've already stated that I'm not teaching him rearing from saddle since we have more things to learn first, and never said his ground rearing was any kind of levade, I dunno.

But I suppose you're right *smirk* despite all horses I have met who rears, by trick or by upper level dressage, and that they've (including my horse) never has reared without cue, any horse who's taught it will go lunatic and kill their riders. Yeah, exactly..


----------



## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Zab said:


> And you think that one day the levade horse just did a perfect levade? The picture you found of Crow was very old when he firslt learnt. No, it wasn't perfect balance as I've said already there, but it's not as bad as you say either. He'sa not rearing of feear or stress, but he is throwing himself to get up. And I'm not saying that that's supposed to be a levade either.
> 
> Besides, you just before this said that it's dangerous because the horse will rear without the cue nd so on as soon as it want to. Why you bring in Croq in this, when I've already stated that I'm not teaching him rearing from saddle since we have more things to learn first, and never said his ground rearing was any kind of levade, I dunno.
> 
> But I suppose you're right *smirk* despite all horses I have met who rears, by trick or by upper level dressage, and that they've *(including my horse) never has reared without cue, *any horse who's taught it will go lunatic and kill their riders. Yeah, exactly..


*You said in your last post he HAS reared without cue, out of frustration. More than once. How is that not dangerous?*



> He has however reared as a protest/question during riding ... two times


 


Please leave the snark at the door. If you want to talk facts, let me know. 

I've seen many rearers. Most never get completely re-trained. Many hurt their riders, the riders get scared and send their horses to the knackers. Or they get sent to the knackers later because nobody wants to deal with a rearer. 

In my personal opinion, teaching a horse to rear is not in the horse's or rider's best interest. 
Rearing can very easily get out of hand, even with the best of riders. Rearing can become habitual, and the horse can learn that rearing means they get out of work.
Rearing is a dangerous thing to play around with. If you mess up, you mess up bad; there is very little room for error, which is why it's such a big deal. 

I'm done here, there is nothing more I can say that hasn't already been said.

You yourself proved my theory right; the horse can and will introduce rearing into riding as an avoidance mechanism.


----------



## Zab (Oct 4, 2008)

**** my honesty. He did NOT rear any of those two times because of that training. He woud have reared that times anyway. And we didn't really do anything but not encourage it when it happened and it has never happened after that. It was one of his first times with a rider, lots of horses do rear slightly when that happens.

Also, as you've already pointed out, he wasn't taught it 'after the book'' so it proves nothing even if he had been a rearing monster. A horse tauht rearing the crrect way will not rear without cue.


----------



## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> A horse tauht rearing the crrect way will not rear without cue.


Using your examples... A horse taught to stop the correct way will NEVER ignore this cue, even if amongst loose horses running wild, or something spooks it from behind, so on and so forth.

A horse taught the right way not to bite will never bite, even when handfed treats to extremes, or in pain when being saddled.

Wish I knew that a long time ago :]


----------



## Zab (Oct 4, 2008)

wild_spot said:


> Using your examples... A horse taught to stop the correct way will NEVER ignore this cue, even if amongst loose horses running wild, or something spooks it from behind, so on and so forth.
> 
> A horse taught the right way not to bite will never bite, even when handfed treats to extremes, or in pain when being saddled.
> 
> Wish I knew that a long time ago :]


That's exatly what I'm talking about. It's not ''teach or don't teach'' but 'teach it the right or wrong way'' that matters.


----------



## Calamity Jane (Mar 16, 2009)

Well, yes and no. I've seen horses that were trained to do rearing, or bowing and they do these things without being asked, simply because those things are now a way to find a release of pressure....it's follows the same idea of...the horse has 6 directions to give you, to find the right one for a release of pressure....left, right, forward, back, up or down. 

Normally, we want to quell the up option, but if you teach the horse to rear, despite your best intentions....he might choose that as an option when you're asking for something else.....of course, depending on how your timing and relationship is with that particular horse (how well you know him)....you can stop it before it "really" happens, you know?


----------



## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

^ Sorry, I don't beleive it. I've never seen a single horse listen to a stop cue every single time no matter what the situation. 

Same with my other examples. When I see it with my own eyes, i'll beleive it, but I have NEVER seen a case where that has been true.


----------



## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Calamaty is kind of right. I can "feel" the rear before it comes. When I know it's coming I have a few options that over the years I have figured out that work, knowing Pistols mood helps me to decide what my options are. For instance I can kick him forward (that usually gets me a huge forward leap) but it moves him forward, if he's moving forward, he can't rear. I can also jam my knuckle into his spine just above the withers. That keeps his rear low (like maybe 12 inches off the ground). I can also yank his reign to the right or left, knocking him off balance and forcing him to plant his feet for an instant. But as far as a "No" que. That's non-existent.....


----------

