# My Rant Against "Non" NH People



## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

Just curious as to what brought this rant on? Is this in general how you have been treated or was there a straw that broke the camels back?


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Hey, not all NH people can be lumped together, same as all NH people, both sides have their crazies....just saying


----------



## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

If you really feel like you are doing the best for you and your horse, what do other's opinions matter?

Carry on!


----------



## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

LOL- Ok


----------



## MangoRoX87 (Oct 19, 2009)

I don't do natural horsemanship..,or at least I don't think i do....and I don't do any of that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

Golden Horse said:


> Hey, not all NH people can be lumped together, same as all NH people, both sides have their crazies....just saying


NH don't believe in "crazy"! It's called "Friendship Training"

(runs and hides)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Well, if we're going to rant, then I get sick of devout NH people telling me that I'm cruel and mean and have no horse sense because I do bop a horse on the nose if they try to bite...I do work their *** off if they buck or bolt or ignore me...and I do demand respect.

No, I don't force them in spite of fear or pain, I encourage them to overcome their fear and I remedy what pain they might have. I do use some NH tactics, but I don't consider myself an NH trainer so....


----------



## Daisy25 (May 29, 2011)

Taffy Clayton said:


> Just curious as to what brought this rant on? Is this in general how you have been treated or was there a straw that broke the camels back?



Yeah...I guess there was a "straw"...


Most of the riders at the barn where I lease are the "just kick him until he does it" type. And that's OK - that's their business.

Meanwhile, I've been using CA methods to work with a spoiled trail horse. I got some cross-eyed looks at first - but folks are starting to notice an improvement in the mare's behavior.

Then along comes a teen who used to ride this leased horse a while back - and she jumps into the saddle for old time's sake. And the teen notices the horse's improved behavior...

So - The teen takes credit for the horse's improvement - bragging about all the things she was able to get the horse to do. And that's OK - teens who think they know everything are nothing new...

The "last straw" was this girl turning to me and explaining in the way that only know-it-all teenagers are able to do - that I am being silly spending so much time on the ground and that clearly, smacking the horse around got good results and I really need to be doing more of that. Oh, and BTW - she thinks the horse has an injury again - but I should ride her anyway.... or I am just gonna make her lazy.

I took a deep breath....counted to ten....

and vented on the forum instead of smacking the girl. 

(Although, I've been told that "smacking around" gets good results - perhaps I should try that next time - LOL!)


----------



## Daisy25 (May 29, 2011)

texasgal said:


> If you really feel like you are doing the best for you and your horse, what do other's opinions matter?
> 
> Carry on!


You're right - it shouldn't.

Guess I just had a "low-self-esteem" moment...


----------



## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

I find it funny because the "natural" thing to do when a horse bites you is for you to "bite" it back  LOL Natural for the horse anyway 

And LOL! Maybe you should have taken her advice and smacked her around a little


----------



## Daisy25 (May 29, 2011)

smrobs said:


> Well, if we're going to rant, then I get sick of devout NH people telling me that I'm cruel and mean and have no horse sense because I do bop a horse on the nose if they try to bite...I do work their *** off if they buck or bolt or ignore me...and I do demand respect.


That's true...there are very crazy NH people.

I guess this is more of a vent about forceful, cowboy-style training tactics.


----------



## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

Just keep on what you're doing and let the results speak for themselves! I giggle at the confused looks I sometimes get when I do things with my horse. However, I was the only one of of my barns group that was able to get their horse to not only go between lot road flares, but to walk calmly and stop too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

Daisy25 said:


> I guess this is more of a vent about forceful, cowboy-style training tactics.


 
I think this need to be a vent about over indulged, spoiled rotten, know it all teenagers. 

And as you mentioned, we all either know or have one of those!!:lol:


----------



## Daisy25 (May 29, 2011)

Taffy Clayton said:


> I think this need to be a vent about over indulged, spoiled rotten, know it all teenagers.
> 
> And as you mentioned, we all either know or have one of those!!:lol:


LOL! Yep!


----------



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Daisy25 said:


> Meanwhile, I've been using CA methods to work with a spoiled trail horse.


If you watch CA working a naughty mare in his "Groundwork Training" series, you'd notice that he smacks the horse's butt HARD with the carrot stick when it tries to buck of kick out. I'm not even getting in that video about Linda Parelli that was all over the Internet... So yeah, of course NH people are very gentle and only give kisses and hugs to their horses... :wink:


----------



## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Daisy25 said:


> vented on the forum instead of smacking the girl.
> 
> (Although, I've been told that "smacking around" gets good results - perhaps I should try that next time - LOL!)


It must've been a doozie. Glad you're feeling a bit better.

I don't use the modern day NH methods and the only thing that would've stopped me from slapping the snot out of her was that she's under 21 and I'm well past it. I might've paid someone her age to ram her face into the mud, however:rofl::rofl:

Sorry you have to be exposed to things like that. Aside from the cliques at the big barns, it's one of the things I see about a lot of boarding barns that I don't like - know-it-alls that really don't:?


----------



## MudPaint (Aug 14, 2010)

*sighs* spoiled rotten teens. 

Hey don't knock us non NH people... we're just put off by the crazies who consider us the reason every horse is ruined. A good horse person takes skills from all areas and uses it to their disposal, whether it's in french or horse language.


----------



## Daisy25 (May 29, 2011)

kitten_Val said:


> If you watch CA working a naughty mare in his "Groundwork Training" series, you'd notice that he smacks the horse's butt HARD with the carrot stick when it tries to buck of kick out. I'm not even getting in that video about Linda Parelli that was all over the Internet... So yeah, of course NH people are very gentle and only give kisses and hugs to their horses... :wink:


LOL! I'm not advocating "kisses and hugs" training methods...(not that I'm even a trainer)...just that respect on the ground is important. I'm trying to use his "lunging for respect" - which I think works.

One of the things I had been hoping to teach through groundwork is that "work" doesn't mean pain and punishment for the horse (discipline is different than punishment, IMHO). We work on something in the round pen...discipline when necessary...and then end with something positive. The horse leaves the round pen happy and content - not downspirited and resentful.

I was upset that this teen noticed an injury (the horse had a tender/irritated spot in the girth area) - tacked up _anyway_ - and then when the horse resisted the rider, the teen smacked her until she complied.


----------



## Daisy25 (May 29, 2011)

MudPaint said:


> *sighs* spoiled rotten teens.
> 
> Hey don't knock us non NH people... we're just put off by the crazies who consider us the reason every horse is ruined. A good horse person takes skills from all areas and uses it to their disposal, whether it's in french or horse language.


Yes...I'm sorry. I mis-directed my vent...

No disrespect intended.


----------



## MudPaint (Aug 14, 2010)

LOL It's ok... annoying teenagers do that to a person. I was going to recommend one part bottle of wine (chugged), one part carrot stick, and flog teen till obedient, but I figured out right abuse would not be tolerated on the boards.


----------



## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

I probably lean more the NH side in my methods, although,To be honest, I haven't really changed my methods since I was a teenager and learned alot about training horses just by watching them interact with one another, and having a darn good trainer to help me work with them prior to that. Yes, I have tweaked things as I've learned, but I'm still quiet and patient, and when I have to be, am I am as "loud" as I have to be as I have to in order to say "hey, wake up! I'm the woman in charge here, not you! behave!" In all my years of riding, owning, and training horses I have never been seriously injured, and I never advertise for training where ever I have lived...it's all been word of mouth, or people having seen the results for themselves by hanging out with me and my horses. 

I always prefer to work with horse and rider/owner as well, rather than "just" the horse. I think that's part of the detail alot of ranting people have...they send horse for training, get horse back, can't handle horse, so think that it's automatically the trainer and their method. I like to teach the horse a few things, then have the owner start working the horse in those areas, and we continue advancing from there. I never leave the owner in the dark as far as "what" and "how" I will work with their horse, and will demonstrate everything with my own horse prior to utilizing those techniques on their horse, and explain why I do those, etc.


----------



## eclipseranch (May 31, 2012)

Daisy25 said:


> Yeah...I guess there was a "straw"...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


what the heck did you let her ride your horse for?
nobody gets on any of my horses w/o permission ever!


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Daisy25 said:


> (Although, I've been told that "smacking around" gets good results - perhaps I should try that next time - LOL!)


 
I understand that it works wonders, vote you apply the Board of Education to the Seat of Knowlege next time and report back on the look on her face......HAAAAH!!!! Yes, I'm being evil! :twisted:


----------



## DoubleS (Jun 11, 2012)

Hey now, not all teenagers are snotty and spoiled 
Although I do consider myself extremely priveliged to have the opportunity to have horses. There IS a difference between 'spoiled' and 'priveliged'. Although priveleged can turn into spoiled really quick 
That aside, I was/am on the same page as the OP. I know a few girls that ride with me, (not to discipline-bash, but they're barrel racers), that are exactly that way. Not saying they're bad people, but they're bad riders.
They laugh at me when I flex him before I ride, or when I lunge for respect before I show. They think their way of forcing a horse to do something with whips and spurs is the right thing, but you should've seen their faces when they saw my pony kick their butts in barrels, and then turn around and win a pleasure class. :lol:
My advice: Ignore them, then laugh when their poor horses have had enough of thier antics and buck 'em off in the middle of a barrel run :lol:


----------



## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

My rant against some people that are either NH or non NH:

STOP THE BLANKET STATEMENTS. We aren't all bad, we all don't smack our horses, and we don't all so things via pain. EVERYONE is different, as are all of the horses out there. 

Knock it off!!

End rant


----------



## Daisy25 (May 29, 2011)

eclipseranch said:


> what the heck did you let her ride your horse for?
> nobody gets on any of my horses w/o permission ever!


Ay - there's the rub...

She's not my horse. I'm leasing. The teen got the permission of the owners. I found out after the fact when she began bragging to me...


----------



## Daisy25 (May 29, 2011)

DoubleS said:


> That aside, I was/am on the same page as the OP. I know a few girls that ride with me, (not to discipline-bash, but they're barrel racers), that are exactly that way. Not saying they're bad people, but they're bad riders.
> They laugh at me when I flex him before I ride, or when I lunge for respect before I show. They think their way of forcing a horse to do something with whips and spurs is the right thing,...


Thanks, DoubleS!

Yes - that's it exactly. I'm taking my time and trying to build a positive relationship with a horse...and I am happy with that.

Meanwhile, others are riding their horses the way they believe is right - and that's fine.

But then for someone to ride my leased horse - _take credit for the things I have been working on_ - and then talk to me like I'm an idiot to boot? Ugh!

I was so darn mad!

But I feel better after venting this all out...

Thank you for listening 

and sorry about the blanket statement - I really had a particular person and her idiot friend in mind when I wrote it.


----------



## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Daisy25 said:


> Ay - there's the rub...
> 
> She's not my horse. I'm leasing. The teen got the permission of the owners. I found out after the fact when she began bragging to me...


I think you need to have a discussion with the owners as to who pays the lease is the one who rides....


----------



## OwnedByAlli (Nov 8, 2011)

Wow I feel for you OP! I'm not NH per-sey but I do plenty of ground work and spend time gaining trust as well as respect off Alli. Where I used to get lessons before I took alli on loan, I was the youngest in my group by a good 18 months (worked out as 2 school years too) and the older kids used to take the mick outa me sometimes (95% of the time they were good banter, don't get me wrong)because I would spend 10 mins before riding with the horse, just giving him scratches etc. They just got on and went, but I liked to befreind the horse before he had to carry me in circles again! I thought it was only right to respect the horses and what they had to put up with.

I also eventually refused to use a whip on some of the horses because they had the cr*p beat out of them by the other kids and were dead to the leg and whip. I found alternative methods work far better on said horses, but no one else seemed to notice this and just assumed the horse was having a good day when I rode them...

It annoys me that teenagers have a bad reputation, but I see why it happens. I'm 17 and I sometimes get just as annoyed at people my age as older people do. I swear on my grandad's grave, NH or not NH, we're not all crazy maniacs who have no respect for other humans or horses!!


----------



## DoubleS (Jun 11, 2012)

Daisy25 said:


> Thanks, DoubleS!
> 
> Yes - that's it exactly. I'm taking my time and trying to build a positive relationship with a horse...and I am happy with that.
> 
> ...


That would _definitely_ tick me off. You're a much better person than I am, I would've put the chick in her place right then and there. :twisted: 
You must have extremely good self control.
And I somewhat agree with you about letting them be with the way they're riding, but then again, I don't feel right keeping to myself about training methods that work and not sharing with them for the *horse's* sake. 
I don't know...


----------



## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Daisy25 said:


> and sorry about the blanket statement - I really had a particular person and her idiot friend in mind when I wrote it.


No worries


----------



## rookie (May 14, 2012)

Yeah, this sounds like a frustrating situation. I would say its limited to only teens but sadly its not. The horse world can be full of self proclaimed experts and trainers. I would just nod and smile. You are probably not the first person she has done this to. If those at the barn have seen all your work and think this girl affected the change after 1 hour then they are not really horse people in my book. Horse people should know that training and behavior changes take place not after a magical 1 hour ride but after hours of hard work. That goes double for fixing problem behaviors. Just remember, the owners chose you to train the horse not this girl. 

Natural horsemanship or unnatural horsemanship has its good eggs and its bad eggs. Don't let one bad one ruin your feelings about the entire philosophy. Each horse is an individual and each one responds to different methods. The real danger is taking one method and applying it to every horse and expecting the same response. Tailor your training to your horse.


----------



## trampis67 (Nov 14, 2010)

Just because you don't fall into the Parelli, and Anderson, gigs don't mean you abuse and mistreat horses. I have found that it's the people who try to use just one person's "method" that ends up frustrated and failing with their horses. If you wanna get real handy with a horse, follow Parelli's advice he gives in his book, " Find a whole corral full of good horsemen" and learn from all of them. EVERY great horseman has had numerous influences along the way. I started with Parelli and learned some really helpful things, but did'nt start advancing in horsemanship until I also studied world champion trainers. The very best of the best trainers will NEVER advocate pain or force to get a response. They may use the words that NH people frown upon, but from my experience it's just phrases, not actions. I don't call myself a natural horseman.....but then again Ray Hunt despised the term too.


----------



## trampis67 (Nov 14, 2010)

trampis67 said:


> Just because you don't fall into the Parelli, and Anderson, gigs don't mean you abuse and mistreat horses. I have found that it's the people who try to use just one person's "method" that ends up frustrated and failing with their horses. If you wanna get real handy with a horse, follow Parelli's advice he gives in his book, " Find a whole corral full of good horsemen" and learn from all of them. EVERY great horseman has had numerous influences along the way. I started with Parelli and learned some really helpful things, but did'nt start advancing in horsemanship until I also studied world champion trainers. The very best of the best trainers will NEVER advocate pain or force to get a response. They may use the words that NH people frown upon, but from my experience it's just phrases, not actions. I don't call myself a natural horseman.....but then again Ray Hunt despised the term too.


I will also ad to this that I think everyone needs to be careful judging trainers by what they "see" because it may not be what you think you're seeing. An example of that is the accusation that trainers "jerk" horses around. I don't know of any horseman that advocates that. I have seen and have myself had to use some pretty firm "rocking" of the bit to get a horse to yield. When I do it's not jerking, in fact I'm not really "pulling" at all. what's happening is the horse has locked it's jaw on the bit and is pushing on it. The only thing I do is to hold the pressure the horse has put on it'self and then help him relax his jaw by rocking the bit until he yields to it. This is the principal of "It's not the pressure but the release of pressure that teaches the horse" in application. 
Another example is the horse I'm currently training as a re-sale trail horse. He is a Tenn. Walker that endured some pretty brutal abuse being trained to be a "big lick" horse. I was told he was tied up and beaten and shocked with cattle prods to make him "more animated and excitable", and boy was he ever !!!
Anyway, what that resulted in was he was ULTRA sensitive anywhere on his body. If you tried to apply a leg cue, reguardless of how light he would go into panic mode. Well, i found out real quick that the " slow and easy" tactic wasn't going to work on this horse. So i just had to get as good a bend in his neck laterally as I could and got him out and just started bumping him with the calves of my leg, while letting him move in a circle until he calmed down and accepted it. Anybody watching me who didn't know what was going on would have sworn I was kicking that poor horses ribs in, because evrytime I would bump him he would spin nearly a 360, dust just flying.

Well, it took awhile and some rough rides but here's a video I have of him so far. He will be ready to sale as soon as I get him out on a few trails for a couple weeks.


----------



## Mckellar (Apr 18, 2012)

I can't read everyone's posts now but what I can contribute is not everyone follows a label of nh or other. I want my horse to be aware of me and trust me and have a good relationship but when it's time to work its time. I'm lucky all of my horses are very good but my mare was a b***h and I could not force her into anything and since I chose not to hit her each time she acted out I was had a label on me but it worked out for me  

I am guilty of knowing next to nothing on parelli or other but what i do know is HORSEMANSHIP AND COMMON SENSE!! I laugh when I was dog whisperer because it's all common sense that he's teaching. Same with horses. Some people ( I think ) need help learning or whatever and they go to nh but in reality everyone uses horsemanship.

I'm sorry people arnt being nice to you about it. My advice is keep on doing what your doing, as long as your confident in your method, seeing results, who's to say what your doing is right or wrong?


----------



## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

I use a combination of NH and non-NH methods. And guess what - ALL the times I have been accused of "abuse" I have been using NH methods. My horse was refusing to listen to me, so I did whatever it took to get the result I wanted. Do as little as possible, but as much as it takes!

...but can those who have accused me of abuse back their horse at liberty, without even touching him? I don't even need a stick! Can they get THEIR horses to yield fore- and hind-quarters without even touching them? NOPE. Most of them can't even control their horses around a SJ course with anything less than a Dutch gag on the harshest ring. While MINE goes in a snaffle (I put him in a kimblewick temporarily to re-establish his respect for the bit, but he rides only in a snaffle now)... and MINE is incredibly soft on the ground and does all the things I ask of him. My yearling is well-behaved and respectful, and will happily sleep sprawled flat with her head in my lap. That's trust. If I abused my horses, I wouldn't have trust.


----------



## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

It does not come down to NH or non NH. It comes down to common sence and good horsemanship. 

I do not think PP is all that as a trainer. He is a great marketer but not much more. 


It comes down to doing what is best to get what you need. Some horses that can be rainbow kissed and butter fly farts but others need more.

Good horsemanship is just that good horsemanship.


----------



## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

nrhareiner said:


> Good horsemanship is just that good horsemanship.


That's what it boils down to right there...plain and simple :wink:


----------



## shotglass (Jul 13, 2012)

Daisy25 said:


> I took a deep breath....counted to ten....
> 
> and vented on the forum instead of *smacking the girl*.
> 
> (Although, I've been told that *"smacking around" gets good results* - perhaps I should try that next time - LOL!)


Hmm, sounds like you might be onto something there....


----------



## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Because I had great success using Carolyn Resnick's Waterhole Rituals I recommended them to a friend who was trying them out in between having a Parrelli trainer come. She was having wonderful success with the WRs. When she tried to discuss the Rituals with the Parelli trainer, it was her way or the highway, not the least bit interested in hearing about it. Friend was also advised not to ride her crazy horse. She started riding her horse who was fine and the Parelli trainer has lost a customer. Parelli and others big names teach the horse to be respectful and compliant. The WR teach the horse to trust first and it's amazing how other things begin to fall in to play. It's been a year since my "problem child" saw the dreaded plastic bag. Last night, I couldn't get a reaction. His feet were glued to the ground. Is that trust or what!!


----------



## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Saddlebag, what the heck is Waterhole Rituals? I have never heard of that.


----------



## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

I'd like to read more about them, too. Searched online, but didn't find much.


----------



## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

It sounds like methods that teach a horse to spook in place. I could be wrong, though.


----------



## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

https://sites.google.com/site/erinscarolynresnicknotes/home

Let me know if the this link doesn't work...

I found this yesterday, kinda like the Readers Digest version of the WaterHole Rituals. I am still trying to read through them and keep an open mind.

I have only read the first two Rituals, I am gathering so far that without a halter on you are forced to high tune into your horse and use the same language that horses use with each other in the pasture. I think that the majority of NH touts that, but this method ups the anti. Instead of sticking your horse in a roundpen and "forcing" the horse to communicate with you, it allows the horse to do it on his own terms and in turn creating a stronger bond.

Like I said this is just what I gather so far from what little I read and some of it I skimmed. I could see how this would really appeal to some people, especially the part of not forcing the horse to interact with them and feeding treats.

I see what this gal is teaching but I can also see that some might take a little to literal and think they never have to make the horse to do as asked of, feed him goodies and they will still get that magical Black Stallion bond they have always dreamed of. Eeek. Used wrong I see disaster.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ledge (May 23, 2011)

What I see with other riders is you get the old cowboy (which really isn't old but) styles where they pretty much take an easier route to get a horse that fears rather than respects.

But yea i've smacked a horse but its when and where you do the smacking, believe me I can't smack the horse on the hind quarters shoulders and actually hurt them.

for the biters believe me they bit you and you bite the fire out of them back they will learn quck to not bite, sounds nasty but it works. and the horse understands a bite.

I don't know if we're "NH" or what but everyone you see will comment on our well behaved horses. ones who all are easy to catch and if i fall off they will come back for me.


----------



## HorseMaster (Aug 5, 2012)

smrobs said:


> Well, if we're going to rant, then I get sick of devout NH people telling me that I'm cruel and mean and have no horse sense because I do bop a horse on the nose if they try to bite...I do work their *** off if they buck or bolt or ignore me...and I do demand respect.
> 
> No, I don't force them in spite of fear or pain, I encourage them to overcome their fear and I remedy what pain they might have. I do use some NH tactics, but I don't consider myself an NH trainer so....


Nothing wrong with bopping your horse on the nose, especially if they try to bite. It's up to us as humans to let the horse know we're in charge and that they have done something wrong.


----------



## corymbia (Jul 6, 2011)

I've never really understood the distinction betweeen NH and non NH. From what I have personally witnessed and read about, there's plenty of NH people incl Parelli and Monty Roberts, CA, etc who will muscle up on a horse and get very forceful with it. At these times I can't see the difference. 

Watching MR use his "buckstopper" device which leaves a big red welt on the horse's gum- I can't see anything inherent humane and certainly nothing "natural" about that. Parelli's much discussed attempts to bridle the UK showjumper "Catwalk" by tying up a leg and putting a rope under its lip- what's natural about that? 

There's also plenty of so called "conventional" methods that are careful and considerate and make sure the horse isn't rushed or frightened during the training. They don't make reference to or conceptualise about herd dynamics, respect or leadership but they lead to good training outcomes which is surely the point.

Ultimately, effective, ethical and humane horse training is about the correct use of negative reinforcement (pressure release). Effective NR relies on good timing (taking the pressure away to reward the correct response), reducing the pressures used to very light to minimse the aversiveness of the pressure, and then transferring the NR response to a cue which isn't itself aversive, such as gestures, posture changes, seat cues, voice commands. This happens through Pavlovian conditioning. 

Despite what many NH people claim, they didn't invent pressure release- its been around as long as humans have been handling horses. An Australian trainer, Kell Jeffery, working back in the 1920s developed a whole method of starting unbroken horses and being on their backs within 30 mins by using NR. He didn't hobble them, tie them up, sack them out, throw them or chase them. He also didn't worry about whether the horse accepted him as leader or respected him. 

If the horse training system is resulting in relaxed, responsive horses then whatever label applied is irrelevant to the horse. All it wants, is to know what it has to do to either escape a pressure or avoid it. If as a trainer you have shown it how to do this, it will be a quiet, calm, trusting and relaxed horse, whatever the tag applied to the method you used.


----------



## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Corymbia, I have used the buckstopper, it is an AMAZING piece of equipment and there is no cruelty in it as the horse has the choice, is it going to put its head down and buck (and face discomfort/pain) or is it going to keep its head up?

The horse that I used the buckstopper on didn't stop bucking, but stopped putting his head down when he bucked, and it took nearly all the power out of his bucking. He went higher and higher in his bucks, but never got me off after I started using it. It worked awesomely. He was bucking as an evasion to work, because he had learned that bucking got him out of cantering.


----------



## ropinbiker (Aug 3, 2012)

I find it troubling to see all the "negative" comments on cowboys in this and other threads...yes, some "cowboys" use fear and intimidation to ride and do their jobs, however, it has been my experience(as I could be called a part time cowboy) that most of us would rather have a willing "partner" than a fear filled slave to our demands....for example, if I am out gathering after dark, I trust my horse to find his way more than I do(footing/path wise not general direction) -- I wouldn't "trust" a scared horse to take care of me in this case.

Also, all trainers will use a form of intimidation in their training -- if not, then they are not being "natural" since horses themselves use intimidation to establish their hierarchy, and they are leaving the door open for the horse to "think" it can do what it wants if it decides it wants to be in charge at that time....for example - the lead mare will flat out kick any and all who do not back away from her once she has given her signal to move away(pinned ears, baring teeth, moving butt towards the intruder/challenger...). I know for a fact, that I can't "kick"/hit with the end of my lead harder than that mare...so when I am training on the ground and I use the end of the lead or my stick to "kick" the hindquarter so that the horse moves of the pressure, I am actually "intimidating" the horse in a manner that they understand.

Now, once I establish that I am in charge and that the horse must change direction, move away from pressure I apply, etc. my horses will "give" to me with only a "look" or an attitude change in me(looking at the hip and think MOVE)...so, once I have established that they MUST follow my leadership, they are trusting, willing, and calm followers of my leadership. 

I have seen CA, Cameron, and others do this when a horse to establish who is in charge. 

Finally, I have seen more issue with behavior on horses that are "spoiled" and allowed to be pushy than from those that are not. I think we need to ensure new folks to horses know that being "natural" is not all hugs and kisses, but is also using as much "force" as necessary and as little "force" as needed....the key is to let the horse decide on the amount and then use that amount. And, once you establish yourself as the leader, then it is incumbent on you to be a good and trustworthy leader(whether cowboy or natural horseman/woman or english or western or whatever).


----------



## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

I completely agree with all of the above 

The art is in knowing which horse you need to start extremely softly with and work your way up, and which horse will never respond to "oh please pretty please" no matter the training.

Mine are polar opposites. The red TB filly is going to be incredibly sensitive to the aids, and if I train her right I will be able to take her to the beach, take her halter off, hop on bareback with nothing on her head, and go for a gallop. And pull her up easily. With nothing at all on her head. The bay Anglo gelding will never be that soft, ever, no matter what anybody does with him, because he simply does not have that level of sensitivity.

At the moment, my Anglo is the more accomplished of the two, in groundwork terms. I can back him at liberty with the twitch of a finger, but that is a cue he can SEE. He isn't sensitive to intentions and energy in a way that will allow him to learn to move off a look and a feeling. He is, however, extremely quiet, and safe, and usually easy to ride. HE is the type of horse you could train to accept you standing on his back with a bullwhip in each hand, cracking said whips.

My TB will be awesome, if I get her training right, but will never be that quiet or that safe.

Different horses with different purposes. Neither is a better or worse horse than the other, they are just different.


----------



## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

ropinbiker said:


> I find it troubling to see all the "negative" comments on cowboys in this and other threads...yes, some "cowboys" use fear and intimidation to ride and do their jobs, however, it has been my experience(as I could be called a part time cowboy) that most of us would rather have a willing "partner" than a fear filled slave to our demands....for example, if I am out gathering after dark, I trust my horse to find his way more than I do(footing/path wise not general direction) -- I wouldn't "trust" a scared horse to take care of me in this case.


I agree with this whole heartedly.
However I suppose it is no different than the stigma placed that all english or dressage riders are stuck up princesses, all team ropers whip their horse when they miss and etc.

Cowboying and even cattle handling has changed greatly over the years, you could even say that even stock handling has gone "natural". Temple Grandon(sp) and especially Bud Williams made an impact on cattle handling practices and marketing those practices, no different than those who started marketing NH to the masses.

Any more, rough handling of horses or cattle wont be tolerated, your horse will be turned out and you will be packing your crap. I have said this in a few threads on here and believe it through and through, if you take care of your livestock, they will take care of you.

The times and the horses have changed, it used to be if you could harpoon the hide off of a tough feather footed horse trying to cheat you while trying to rope a cow before she hit the brush, you were hired. Now you have to be a good horseman and a good cowman. It is not like a John Wayne movie....or The Rounders...dang it...lol


----------



## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

If you google Carolyn Resnick you will learn of her Waterhole Rituals. To simplify the amount of reading google Erin's Carolyn Resnicks Notes. This is Erin's interpretation but she has drastically reduced the wordage. If anyone is interested in trying this I strongly suggest you read no more than the first three rituals until you have accomplished them with your horse. When working (I don't like that word because it wasn't work but I'm stuck with it) with the horse there is no "pretty please". When the first three rituals are completed you will find your horse has a much more pleasant attitude and is more willing. I respect his confusion or fears of something new and don't force it "my way or the hiway". He will try again because he is not afraid of repercussion. They are surprisingly willing to try something new as long as it's on their terms and often will try harder the next time. BTW the work is done with the horse at liberty so it becomes more challenging for the handler. More than once my horse left the paddock, I waited, called him and he returned. Carolyn's rituals have turned a frightened explosive horse completely around and he became a new horse.


----------



## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

I see how that might work on a horse that was thumped on quite a bit, but I figure if I am doing my job of building a colts confidence while training there would be no fear for him trying and perhaps trying the wrong answer and getting chastised for it. I would simply make the wrong answer harder(that doesn't mean getting thumped on or creating fear), the right one easier.


----------



## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

I agree. These type of things may have their place at times with certain horses but I do not need or want to wast my time doing that type of thing when I can get the same or better results by properly working the horse.


----------



## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Haven't seen anything you have mentioned thus far that pertains specifically to NH rather than non NH. Just good horse sense and bad horse sense. 

I wanted to emphasize a few of the following bolded points:



Daisy25 said:


> Yeah...I guess there was a "straw"...
> 
> 
> Most of the riders at the barn where I lease are the "*just kick him until he does it"* type. And that's OK - that's their business.
> ...


"kick it until it goes" is just plain stupid. Nothing to do with a particular method.

Pat Parelli or any other modern day trainer did not invent ground work. Just like Dr. Atkins did not invent the carbohydrate. They just coined a few catchy terms, had a good marketing spin and whoopdy do, everyone associates each with the other.

Again, good horse sense vs. bad horse sense.



Daisy25 said:


> LOL! I'm not advocating "kisses and hugs" training methods...(not that I'm even a trainer)...just that respect on the ground is important. I'm trying to use his "lunging for respect" - which I think works.
> 
> *One of the things I had been hoping to teach through groundwork is that "work" doesn't mean pain and punishment for the horse (discipline is different than punishment, IMHO). We work on something in the round pen...discipline when necessary...and then end with something positive. The horse leaves the round pen happy and content - not downspirited and resentful.*
> 
> I was upset that this teen noticed an injury (the horse had a tender/irritated spot in the girth area) - tacked up _anyway_ - and then when the horse resisted the rider, the teen smacked her until she complied.


That's great but really, this is a very basic training idea, one practiced by thousands of riders of all disciplines. I resent the insinuation that horses that are trained in a non NH manner are 'downspirited and resentful'. You wonder why the NH folk catch so much flak, the rhetoric comes off rather condescending.



Daisy25 said:


> Thanks, DoubleS!
> 
> *Yes - that's it exactly. I'm taking my time and trying to build a positive relationship with a horse...and I am happy with that.*
> 
> ...


Again, building a positive relationship with a horse is not a purely NH associated trait. I don't practice Natural Horsemanship. I'm sure some of my methods are of that vein, they were taught to me by some people who have trained horses longer than I have been alive. Some methods work. Some don't.

I believe I have very positive relationships with every horse I interact with. And I don't own a carrot stick. Go figure.


----------



## Canteringleap (Aug 5, 2012)

Could someone please define natural Horsemanship and the difference from someone just caring about their horse and not using force, fear, or pain to achieve things? Thanks


----------



## trampis67 (Nov 14, 2010)

Canteringleap said:


> Could someone please define natural Horsemanship and the difference from someone just caring about their horse and not using force, fear, or pain to achieve things? Thanks


Well, to me the term "Natural Horsemanship", which by the way none of the "pioneers' of todays clinicians (Tom Dorrance, Bill Dorrance, Ray Hunt) ever referred to it as that, means to work from the horses mind to his feet. It means to CAUSE the horse to respond to whatever it is you're asking instead of MAKING him do it. It means to, as Pat Parelli and Ray Hunt have said it "cause your ideas to become his ideas". In other words if you are putting the concepts of Natural Horsemanship to use in the right way, anything you ask your horse to do, he should have a choice of doing the right thing or the wrong thing. If he chooses to do the wrong thing you "get in his way" as Tom Dorrance put it, and cause that to be uncomfortable, until he finds the right answer, then you "get out of his way" (release the pressure) and allow him to find that relief. What Ive learned after an intense study of Natural Horsemanship for the past 12 years, is that if you apply NH or any other way it pretty much comes down to pressure and release, feel timing and balance. Natural Horsemanship and "Normal Horsemanship" shouldn't conflict with each other, they should actually compliment each other. What I mean by that, is if you are failing in one, you'll probably fail in the other two. It's really not the "method" you are using it's a misunderstanding on how to apply the principals and concepts of horsemanship, that will be needed in any form it's presented. 
Natural Horsemanship is not so much about being loving and gentle all the time, as it is knowing when firmness is needed and how much firmness is needed and how to be firm in a way the horse understands it, and most importantly, when to STOP being firm. I have seen just as many, if not more horses screwed up mentally and emotionally by a lack of any type of understandable leadership from the human as I have those that have been physically abused. Remember just like humans, horses can be mentally and emotionally abused to. What I have found for me, is that NH is not so much a way to train horses, it's more getting people to understand horses and prepare them to train a horse. Once you understand the concepts of why a horse does what he does, when he does what he does, then you can add the principals of horse training ( Pressure and release, form to function, body control, speed control) and the two will mesh together and make a very nice calm, responsive, well mannered horse. I hope this makes at least a little sense, because I usually have a terrible time trying to put into words what I want to say.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*What is NH*

I'm british so the whole NH thing is actually pretty alien to me, people like Monty Roberts and Parelli have introduced themselves to the UK over recent years but most people stick to their own tried and trusted methods - however just because we don't follow the whole NH thing doesn't mean that our methods are cruel or forceful or ineffective and they are similar in many ways so there are overlaps in places.
Over the years I've bought horses that have been bullied into submission, they do what they do begrudgingly out of fear so they are usually tense, distrusful and nervy. They take a whole lot more to turn around than a horse thats relaxed and trusting around people but has been allowed to get away with things or is too much 'in your face'.
There are lots of brilliant trainers out there who you can put under just about any umbrella you care too - the evidence is always in the results. There are plenty of 'trainers' out there calling themselves NH who are giving their style a bad name because they confuse the thinking behind establishing a relationship with the horse with some sort of a 'cat & mouse' game where the mouse will eventually roll over and give up and we all know how that one ends. Surrender is not done willingly or out of choice, a horse has to want to work for you because it trusts you as a leader if you are to get the best results
It doesn't matter what label you stick on yourself if the end result is a good one thats all that matters


----------



## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

This is the problem I have with putting a term like NH on training. I do a lot of the same things with my horses that these so called NH trainers do. I just do not put a fancy name to them I was doing them before PP and the others ever came around. It is not new. Most (not all) of these trainers just put fancy names to things and spout their BS and try and sell you things you do not really need.

Take your time watch your horse and how they react to what you are doing. That will tell you more then any trainer out there. Yes it is nice to watch a good trainer work a horse b/c you can learn a lot about reading a horse and what and how they correct that horse. However when watching a really good trainer you will see something that I have yet to see with PP. The trainer changes what they are doing. If it is not working they ask why is it not working? Then they cange their game plan and work the new plan.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*NH or what?*



nrhareiner said:


> This is the problem I have with putting a term like NH on training. I do a lot of the same things with my horses that these so called NH trainers do. I just do not put a fancy name to them I was doing them before PP and the others ever came around. It is not new. Most (not all) of these trainers just put fancy names to things and spout their BS and try and sell you things you do not really need.
> 
> Take your time watch your horse and how they react to what you are doing. That will tell you more then any trainer out there. Yes it is nice to watch a good trainer work a horse b/c you can learn a lot about reading a horse and what and how they correct that horse. However when watching a really good trainer you will see something that I have yet to see with PP. The trainer changes what they are doing. If it is not working they ask why is it not working? Then they cange their game plan and work the new plan.


 I absolutely agree. You can call peeling potatos by whatever name you like but you are still peeling potatos and we've been doing it for many years.
There are now so many different names for what we used to call 'getting a horse used to stuff' so that it makes what was a basic down to earth common sense procedure suddenly sound really technical. When I was 11 or 12 years old I turned a little racing pony into a mounted games pony, I didn't consider myself to be anything of an expert or a trainer.
I will probably incurr the wrath of all PP fans when I say that he lost all credibility to me when he lost his cool with the showjumping stallion Catwalk at Stoneleigh UK. A good horseman would have known that it was not a quick fix with his method and stood up and said so. Some things with some horses just take more time than others & getting forceful isn't the right answer for long term results


----------



## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

In my opinion, as the years have passed since the marketing of NH, the lines of blurred a little. Traditional trainers had started incorporating NH practices into their methods. While I agree it isn't new, there still was quite a few trainers were not falling for the "horse whispering" BS. For as long as I can remember " making the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard" was the horse trainers credo.

I have witnessed this myself, working for trainers starting colts, that the colt starting practices have changed and started leaning more towards the NH camp. It wasn't long before lunge whips where replaced with flags and instead of starting in a snaffle the first few rides where in a rope halter. I am not saying that NH is all about equipment change, but I think you get the idea. One thing that didn't change was the amount of ground work, which I am thankful for honestly. I realize that groundwork needs to be done, but there is such a thing as too much...and it makes for a resentful, bored horse.


----------



## ledge (May 23, 2011)

I think the biggest shift is people are doing more on the ground before the first ride. Some its because they are getting older and the ground gets harder, others have found out its easier to get some of the jitters out when your not on their back.

But yea most of the Natural Horsemanship stuff is a marketing tool to sell more DVDs, halters, flags, sticks with strings, mecate reins with slobbers, and now the 45' super soft lariat rope (all good tools if used properly)

My only minor rant on the NH crowd is some people get into the close mindedness of thinking their NH trainer is the know all end all when most of the different trainers are saying basically the same thing in their own style. I am just saying be open to everyone, if something works and makes sense try it you may be surprised. (especially if that idea falls into the scope of what you deem acceptable)


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*NH*



ledge said:


> I think the biggest shift is people are doing more on the ground before the first ride. Some its because they are getting older and the ground gets harder, others have found out its easier to get some of the jitters out when your not on their back.
> 
> But yea most of the Natural Horsemanship stuff is a marketing tool to sell more DVDs, halters, flags, sticks with strings, mecate reins with slobbers, and now the 45' super soft lariat rope (all good tools if used properly)
> 
> My only minor rant on the NH crowd is some people get into the close mindedness of thinking their NH trainer is the know all end all when most of the different trainers are saying basically the same thing in their own style. I am just saying be open to everyone, if something works and makes sense try it you may be surprised. (especially if that idea falls into the scope of what you deem acceptable)


 There's nothing wrong with good groundwork if its going to give you a better safer horse when you get on it and there's nothing wrong with continuing it with a riding horse if its done to keep them stimulated, nothing worse than a bored horse but a lot of the NH people are drifting into new territory and the edges are a bit too blurred. Europeans like Hempfling, Nevzorov and Honza Blaha do remarkable things with their horses on the ground but if you get led too much into this direction you end up in a place where horses will be pasture ornaments living their whole life in a mini herd and played with like toy poodles in a circus. Thats in no way giving disrespect to what they do with horses but for most people the aim is to participate in some sort of riding where they'll be safe and in control and getting pleasure from it but if people buy in too much to the new extreme belief that Natural involves no bits, no saddles, no whips, no spurs, no shoes, no stables, no bridles, no competitions by being brainwashed into thinking that breaking these rules makes them a cruel person then the few people who own the few horses that are capable of being ridden outside of a confined area are going to be very few and far between.


----------



## ledge (May 23, 2011)

jaydee said:


> There's nothing wrong with good groundwork if its going to give you a better safer horse when you get on it and there's nothing wrong with continuing it with a riding horse if its done to keep them stimulated, nothing worse than a bored horse but a lot of the NH people are drifting into new territory and the edges are a bit too blurred. Europeans like Hempfling, Nevzorov and Honza Blaha do remarkable things with their horses on the ground but if you get led too much into this direction you end up in a place where horses will be pasture ornaments living their whole life in a mini herd and played with like toy poodles in a circus. Thats in no way giving disrespect to what they do with horses but for most people the aim is to participate in some sort of riding where they'll be safe and in control and getting pleasure from it but if people buy in too much to the new extreme belief that Natural involves no bits, no saddles, no whips, no spurs, no shoes, no stables, no bridles, no competitions by being brainwashed into thinking that breaking these rules makes them a cruel person then the few people who own the few horses that are capable of being ridden outside of a confined area are going to be very few and far between.



I couldn't agree more, what you do on the ground prepares for what you will do under saddle. I didn't realize that the NH had gone that far as to NO bridles spurs ect..... other than you should have your horse prepared to be ridden with no bridle as sort of the "Crowning Achievement" of the training.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*NH a sliding scale*



ledge said:


> I couldn't agree more, what you do on the ground prepares for what you will do under saddle. I didn't realize that the NH had gone that far as to NO bridles spurs ect..... other than you should have your horse prepared to be ridden with no bridle as sort of the "Crowning Achievement" of the training.


 Personally I wouldn't consider these people to be NH and certainly the europeans like Hempfling doesn't consider himself to be, The problem seems to come about when some 'Trainers' for want of a better word, start to drift in that direction and take the whole thing a stage further and 'throw the baby out with the bath water' in the name of what *they* see as removing all forms of abuse.
Riding with no bridle is not a great feat for someone with the capabilities to ride and train a horse to do it and as you say a 'crowning achievment' but when people start thinking they have failed themselves or their horse because they can't do it then its really sad. The most people are never even going to aspire to be anything more than average and a lot who still get tons of pleasure from their riding won't even get to that level.
Riding bridleless and bareback across a sunny plain with the wind in your hair may look romantic and 'at one with the horse' but the reality of most people actually achieveing that and coming out alive is pretty remote
The whole thing needs reining in and a return to a more practical common sense approach is overdue, why some people seem to think this involves wholesale cruelty is beyond me


----------



## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

ledge said:


> I couldn't agree more, what you do on the ground prepares for what you will do under saddle. I didn't realize that the NH had gone that far as to NO bridles spurs ect..... other than you should have your horse prepared to be ridden with no bridle as sort of the "Crowning Achievement" of the training.


 
Reiners have been showing horses bridleless for years. Long before Stacy did it. So not that big of a deal. A well trained horse is a well trained horse.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Most of the gypsy ponies that were around when I was young were ridden without saddles and bridles, someone that had a stables by us bought all of their riding school ponies from gypsies as they were so reliable and bomb proof to just about any level as they were exposed to everything from day one nothing worried them and the ones that mainly lived on the road were never kept as herd animals but tethered on whatever grass they could find as they went
As you say with the reiners - its nothing new- yet all of a sudden we have people trying to lay claim to all these things as their own and make out they are somehow really special for being able to do them just because they can impress a group of people who are out of their comfort zone very easily What realy confuses me is why so many people actually go out and buy a horse thats totally beyond their capabilities in the first place is it this trend for a trainer showing themselves doing something with a horse and making it look too easy because in fact the horse was not a problem in the first place?


----------



## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

I have seen people go out and by NRHA Open World Champion horses and think they are going to take that horse and go win Rookie of the year on it. NOT.


----------



## ledge (May 23, 2011)

And I've seen Pete Kyle do freestyle in a wedding dress HAHA

(was a joke because westfall had to cancel on the Ariat Tulsa)


----------



## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Pete is a careter that is for sure. I bet you could get Shawn to do it too.


----------



## lilruffian (Jun 28, 2010)

When it comes right down to it, NH is about treating the horse as a horse, not a human. So many people have a hard time doing this and tend to put human attributes on horses (or any animal) If a horse doesnt do something, even if it is something it has done before, many people think he's just trying to screw with the handler or jsut being stubborn but there is ALWAYS an underlying reason that takes actual horse-sense to filter out.

A trainer at a NH clinic i went to explained it well when he was talking to a fellow about how his horse would not stop rocking around in the trailer. He asked the man if he thought it was a respect issue, a fear issue or an confidence issue and the guy responded with "respect issue."
Which is silly. Like the trainer said to him, "the horse doesnt know you are driving the vehicle. He does not think 'hey, i'm gonna screw with this guy and rock about'"
Once we can get past this, it gets easier to understand the horse.

And i know NH isn't new, but the fact is that there are still MANY trainers out there that think any problem can be solved by "cowboying up". In other words, forcing the horse to do what they want because they think it's an animal and it has to.
But when it comes right down to it, we live in a world (most areas of the world, anyway) where we do not NEED horses. Everything the horse has ever been used for in the past has been replaced by a vehicle or machinery. They are a luxury or a hobby for some, so there is _no need_ to treat them ill. 
We nolonger need the horse to get from point a to b, work a farm or earn a living (though some do, it is only because they enjoy horses, not because they couldnt get a job doing something else) Therefor we can and should practice more "natural" or humane methods. No more shoving a harsher bit into the animal's mouth because he wont listen or strapping his head down as a means to force him into the position we desire.

Plain and simple: if a horse fails to do something it is because he was not trained to do it and if a horse fails to do something properly, it is because he was not trained properly.


----------



## TheAQHAGirl (Aug 10, 2012)

Well here is my mini-rant about Natural Horsemanship...

Whats so natural about it?

Is it natural in the first place to be putting a halter on a horse? What about riding? Whats so natural about that?

I do some Clinton Anderson, however I don't call it Natural Horsemanship. I just call it Horsemanship.


----------



## Daisy25 (May 29, 2011)

Oh my goodness....I can't belive this discussion has gone on so long.

I never meant to post such a controversial thread.

I was just having a bad day, tired of being mocked for my "soft" approach with a stubborn horse, tired of hearing that the horse just needs kicking, smacking, or I that I just needed to battle it out with her, etc, and I just needed to let off a little steam...


----------



## lilruffian (Jun 28, 2010)

TheAQHAGirl said:


> Well here is my mini-rant about Natural Horsemanship...
> 
> Whats so natural about it?
> 
> ...


It's called natural because it's more natural to them than what was practiced for thousands of years before. You're trying to use techniques based on the horse's own way of doing things "naturally".
There is a man (i believe in Russia) named Alexander Nevzarov who takes it a bit to the extreem. He doesnt believe in halters or anything that may cause the horse pain. The only piece of equipment he uses is a soft, thin rope hung around the base of the neck as a tool to signal the horse when he is working & when he is playing.
He can do some pretty amazing stuff and focuses mainly on classica dressage with his horses. I dont believe that he rides anymore because he does not think it is good for the horse but he used to be a member of the Spanish Riding School.
He is extreem, however, and most of what he says does have to be taken with a grain of salt.


----------



## TheAQHAGirl (Aug 10, 2012)

lilruffian said:


> It's called natural because it's more natural to them than what was practiced for thousands of years before. You're trying to use techniques based on the horse's own way of doing things "naturally".
> There is a man (i believe in Russia) named Alexander Nevzarov who takes it a bit to the extreem. He doesnt believe in halters or anything that may cause the horse pain. The only piece of equipment he uses is a soft, thin rope hung around the base of the neck as a tool to signal the horse when he is working & when he is playing.
> He can do some pretty amazing stuff and focuses mainly on classica dressage with his horses. I dont believe that he rides anymore because he does not think it is good for the horse but he used to be a member of the Spanish Riding School.
> He is extreem, however, and most of what he says does have to be taken with a grain of salt.


I feel like that makes much more sense than what some other people have told me.

Isn't it true that he keeps his horses in total isolation or something like that? I thought I heard something like that but I'm not sure.

But I've heard some crazy things about him, including him not riding anymore.


----------



## lilruffian (Jun 28, 2010)

I imagine you would hear some crazy things because his methods are totally different than even any other natural horseman and he does critisize EVERY horse sport out there and pretty well all horse owners so he's bound to recieve alot of heavy dislike, which leads to rumors.
His horses arent kept in isolation, he has some very nice pastures & paddocks but his number of personal horses is only about 4/5.
He does have a school of his own now, where students can go and learn from him but seeing as how he does not speak any english, it would be difficult for him to make educational videos that could be sold in most parts of the world, or go on tour. Which is a shame because what he can do is really neat to watch.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*Nevzirov*



lilruffian said:


> I imagine you would hear some crazy things because his methods are totally different than even any other natural horseman and he does critisize EVERY horse sport out there and pretty well all horse owners so he's bound to recieve alot of heavy dislike, which leads to rumors.
> His horses arent kept in isolation, he has some very nice pastures & paddocks but his number of personal horses is only about 4/5.
> He does have a school of his own now, where students can go and learn from him but seeing as how he does not speak any english, it would be difficult for him to make educational videos that could be sold in most parts of the world, or go on tour. Which is a shame because what he can do is really neat to watch.


 I have looked at quite a lot of his stuff - mostly out of interest for anything different but the comment I had to make is that people were doing this sort of thing with Circus Liberty horses many years ago and if you took all the tack off the Lippizaner performing horses they would still do those moves. Yes he does some remarkable things with them but he isn't unique.
What I dislike is that he feels he has to justify his ideas by showing extreme examples of people using bits & whips etc really badly when in reality most people dont do this at all, you can use a whip as a tool without thrashing the hide of your horse and you can ride with a soft hand in any bit and not cause pain
For most people the only thing they want out of a horse is to be able to ride it safely & happily and not be pressured into doing things that could cause them or the horse to be in danger so when I see things taken to extremes all I see is a slippery slope to horses just being pasture pets
He thinks he is against cruelty yet I would say that my horses are much happier & relaxed riding along a trail than they would be if they were forced to perform haute ecole tricks even without tack - they would hate it


----------



## corymbia (Jul 6, 2011)

Daisy25 said:


> Oh my goodness....I can't belive this discussion has gone on so long.
> 
> I never meant to post such a controversial thread.
> 
> I was just having a bad day, tired of being mocked for my "soft" approach with a stubborn horse, tired of hearing that the horse just needs kicking, smacking, or I that I just needed to battle it out with her, etc, and I just needed to let off a little steam...


Well done you for starting such a great thread! Really interesting to read the different opinions and points of view. And it stayed respectful unlike so many NH threads. I've learnt quite a bit and have lots to think about. 

Good luck with your horse and good on you for wanting to train your horse humanely.


----------



## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

One (among many) of Mark Rashid's ideas that I really like is his assertion that he has never met a "disrespectful" horse. Rather, he explains that people are training their horses all the time, every moment they take them out of the stable or fields, and when the horse learns the behaviour the handler wants, he gets labeled as a nice, respectful horse. But when the horse learns a behaviour that the handler doesn't like, the horse gets labeled as "disrespectful."

You see it all the time, people who can't communicate what they want to the horse and consequently say "he needs to learn respect" when the horse doesn't do what they want. There's someone at my barn whose horse gets fidgety when tied, and she gets all wound up and starts shouting "stand! stand! stand!" at the horse, and if I didn't understand English or have a brain that comprehends more abstract ideas, I wouldn't know what this lady wanted, either! I see riders all the time who missed the day in class when they taught pressure and release. I see them trying to do "dressage" by pulling and bracing on the inside rein, constant pressure, all the time, even when the horse in fact puts its head down (nevermind the other issue here -- that head carriage should be trained from back to front). Then the horses get stiff, unbalanced, resistant, and thus described as "lazy" and "stubborn." I don't see a lazy or stubborn horse. I see one who hasn't a clue what his rider wants and out of self-preservation and confusion, might be developing resistant behaviours. If riding were constant pressure, no release, no rewards, no direction, no real communication, you would too. 

If so-called "natural horsemanship" trainers can create a system to train people how to communicate with horses in an effective way, I am all for it. I think there will always be people who misuse and/or misunderstand some of these concepts (people will always find new and ingenious ways to be idiots) but if what some folk choose to call NH provides an explanatory framework by which people can start understanding horse psychology, it's not a bad thing.


----------



## corymbia (Jul 6, 2011)

Mark Rashid is my fav NH trainer for the reasons you've mentioned silverspear. I think he is one of the few who is genuinely completely horse centred in his approach. I watched quite a few CA vids today, and every second comment is that the horse needs to learn respect and everything is filtered through that frame. Its the justification moved for chasing the horse until its covered in sweat, terrified and too exhausted to move a foot. 

Some of his techniques conformed to good learning principles, many were appalling- having no sympathy for the horse at all, and blaming the horse for its confusion and fear.

I think the problem with an awful lot of NH techniques and approaches is that the trainer's opinions are presented as verfied fact, there is little to no referencing of any evidence and almost none show any awareness of the vast amount of scientific work conducted in equine cognition and learning or the work of ethologists who study wild horse herds.In particular, the results of wild horse studies don't substantiate many of the claims NH trainers make about herd dynamics or social structure. I find this puzzling given almost every other sport around today makes use of the latest research in science to improve what they do. 

Much of the NH terminology used is still anthropomorphic, blames the horse and doesn't enable diagnosis of the causes of training failure, which is the vast majority of cases is due to poorly applied negative reinforcement. However, done well, many NH methods are better for horses than the alternatives and they do enable people to train more sympathetically. I just think they could be even better if they were based on learning theory, the blurry, anthropomorphic terminology was abandoned and they quit obssessing about respect. :?


----------



## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

I haven't watched any of Clinton Anderson's material. In fact, I'd never heard of him 'till I started posting on this forum. I pay attention to the trainers I like, such as Linda Tellington-Jones, Mark, and Buck Brannaman, and don't bother with what I don't agree with or understand.

I agree, the word "respect" needs to drop out of horse training parlance, as it's too anthropomorphic to be useful, as does the view that the horse's fundamental nature is to be lazy, stubborn, and trying to get out of work so we have to "make" him work. While that might in fact describe people who are sitting in their offices surfing the internet rather than working, it doesn't describe most horses. Mark and Buck both argue that the horse's fundamental nature is in fact cooperative -- it has to be, as this is how they survive in the wild -- and Mark especially has written about how he approaches every horse he works with as though the horse wants to get along with him, but if it has had bad or confusing training, it might not know how. 

I definitely agree that there's a disconnection between scientific, empirical ideas of equine cognition and learning theory and "everyday" horsemanship; not just amongst some NH practitioners, but everywhere, at every stable. There's so much myth and "tradition" surrounding horsemanship, things you learn because "that's the way it's done" which may or may not be founded on any scientific evidence.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*respect*



thesilverspear said:


> I haven't watched any of Clinton Anderson's material. In fact, I'd never heard of him 'till I started posting on this forum. I pay attention to the trainers I like, such as Linda Tellington-Jones, Mark, and Buck Brannaman, and don't bother with what I don't agree with or understand.
> 
> I agree, the word "respect" needs to drop out of horse training parlance, as it's too anthropomorphic to be useful, as does the view that the horse's fundamental nature is to be lazy, stubborn, and trying to get out of work so we have to "make" him work. While that might in fact describe people who are sitting in their offices surfing the internet rather than working, it doesn't describe most horses. Mark and Buck both argue that the horse's fundamental nature is in fact cooperative -- it has to be, as this is how they survive in the wild -- and Mark especially has written about how he approaches every horse he works with as though the horse wants to get along with him, but if it has had bad or confusing training, it might not know how.
> 
> I definitely agree that there's a disconnection between scientific, empirical ideas of equine cognition and learning theory and "everyday" horsemanship; not just amongst some NH practitioners, but everywhere, at every stable. There's so much myth and "tradition" surrounding horsemanship, things you learn because "that's the way it's done" which may or may not be founded on any scientific evidence.


 Respect is such an old fashioned term that it probably isn't the right word to use. I can remember my father saying how certain kids were taught to respect their parents by way of a 'belt across their backsides'. so they obeyed out of fear of not obeying rather that because they had been brought up in such a way that they wanted to please their parents so it was a begrudging respect.
If I don't give my horses clear signals then its my fault if they dont understand, I have one horse who was at the very end of the queue when they were handing out the brains so I have to respect that in her and make the signals extra clear, allow her more time to absorb things and not expect too much in one go. She will get there but it takes longer.
Consistency is important - I hear people say 'well I give him treats all the time but when he's pushy he gets slapped on the nose' or I allow him to push on me when I want him to too but if I dont want him too he gets a beating for it' How does that horse know when he should or shouldn't be doing these things? they aren't mind readers. Its no different to allowing a child to help himself to the candy jar most of the time but on the occasions it irritates you he gets a slap for it.


----------



## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

thesilverspear said:


> One (among many) of Mark Rashid's ideas that I really like is his assertion that he has never met a "disrespectful" horse. Rather, he explains that people are training their horses all the time, every moment they take them out of the stable or fields, and when the horse learns the behaviour the handler wants, he gets labeled as a nice, respectful horse. But when the horse learns a behaviour that the handler doesn't like, the horse gets labeled as "disrespectful."
> 
> 
> *I will agree that you are always training horses. However I do not agree that all horses are naturally respectful. They do not hit the ground with respect for anything. Their dams hopefully will teach them and then you have to teach them also. If not then no matter what they will not be respectful. You must teach them that.*
> ...


 
I will agree to an extent. The problem is that there is not one way. A lot of these so called NH trainers want to make a one fits all aproch and there is no such thing.


----------



## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

corymbia said:


> Much of the NH terminology used is still anthropomorphic, blames the horse and doesn't enable diagnosis of the causes of training failure, which is the vast majority of cases is due to poorly applied negative reinforcement. However, done well, many NH methods are better for horses than the alternatives and they do enable people to train more sympathetically. I just think they could be even better if they were based on learning theory, the blurry, anthropomorphic terminology was abandoned and they quit obssessing about respect. :?


I agree the term "respect" is over used. Respect issues stem from the handler causing the problem, the horse wasn't born disrespectful, it was conditioned by its handler/rider to become disrespectful. It is learned.
However I don't think the word sympathy or sympathetic would be a term or emotion to have while using "NH". Talk about anthropomorphism. To me NH is using a horses language to communicate with him.Being able to communicate what you are asking(training) in his language. I do not believe that horses feel or communicate sympathy towards each other.

I think sympathy is a big problem in training and causes the disrespect. Because some folks are overly sympathetic, they don't want to hurt their horses feelings by getting after them when they need it.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*NH*

I do think that there is too much of a tendency to heap all the blame on an owner with this 'no horse is direspectful' thought. I've been around breeding horses since I was young and all the foals were handled from birth but some were total pains in the *** regardless of them being treated in the right way. Horses aren't born 'cookie cutter', they all have their own personalities from the 'get go' - just like puppies - and children for that matter. I've had some that had to challenge you every inch of the way and some that just rolled over and accepted everything happily and calmly, I've even had a few that had to be weaned early to spare their poor mothers as they had such a mean, bullying attitude and yet previous foals and subsequent foals from the same mother were fine
The one size fits all attitude is the worst possible thing for horses and a lot of these NH trainers do have a tendency to huddle together in groups.
Sometimes the first thing you try works great but sometimes you have to go back to the drawing board a few times before you get there but it doesn't mean you have to resort to violence. There's been more than a few times when one good 'slap' at the right time/right place has worked for me and maybe saved a horse thats just trying to be too assertive for its own good from ending up on the road to a slaughter yard


----------



## RosiePosie06 (Jun 3, 2012)

I follow Clinton Anderson's methods (and of course use what I've learned in the past from other trainers) because I love that it doesn't involve abuse, but it's not like "Don't touch the horsey!". He hits horses, that's how they communicate anyway. So therefore I don't understand the OP saying she used NH to avoid smacking around the horse when the Downunder Horsemanship method involves hitting.

I also don't think this should be a rant against non-NH people. It should just be a rant against horse people! hahahaa. I don't think I've ever met a horse person that didn't think they were the best at everything, the way they train is the only way, and everyone else does it wrong. Not to mention their breed of horse and their discipline is the only respectable one ever. So I understand the rant, I have the same rant directed at the entire horse world every day. People should just accept that everyone is different and new methods (i.e. NH) will come up. THat doesn't mean they're bad.


----------



## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

RosiePosie06 said:


> I don't think I've ever met a horse person that didn't think they were the best at everything, the way they train is the only way, and everyone else does it wrong. Not to mention their breed of horse and their discipline is the only respectable one ever.



You need to get out more if this is the *only* type of horse person you've ever met. 

I daresay the_ real_ horse people are the ones who understand that there are many roads to Rome.

Exaggerate much?


----------



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

RosiePosie06 said:


> I don't think I've ever met a horse person that didn't think they were the best at everything, the way they train is the only way, and everyone else does it wrong. Not to mention their breed of horse and their discipline is the only respectable one ever.


That's just so far from the truth that I don't even know where to start. If all horse people in your area (you including?) are like that I feel very sorry...


----------



## nikelodeon79 (Mar 3, 2008)

ledge said:


> I think the biggest shift is people are doing more on the ground before the first ride.


Well... I've been doing a ton of groundwork before getting in the saddle for 20 years... the woman I consider to be my mentor has been doing it for over 40 years. So... not exactly a new concept. :wink:

I think it's just common sense to try and get a horse to the point where he's not gonna try to send you flying out of the saddle before you ever get on. 

I think what's referred to as the "cowboy style" (for lack of a better term) of breaking/training a horse was used out of necessity. Out on the range, horses had to be ready and ready quickly. Would they have taken more time if time was available? I think most of them would have. 



ledge said:


> My only minor rant on the NH crowd is some people get into the close mindedness of thinking their NH trainer is the know all end all when most of the different trainers are saying basically the same thing in their own style. I am just saying be open to everyone, if something works and makes sense try it you may be surprised. (especially if that idea falls into the scope of what you deem acceptable)


This is a great point. I think we need to be fluid in our thinking on training horses. What works for some doesn't work for others. I prefer to start horses in the round pen. Now, for one particular gelding i worked with, the round pen simply confused him. I ended up throwing everything I usually do out the window and starting fresh with him. 

What worries me most about any of these trainers that become famous for their methods is that complete novices think they can just pick up and train their own horses without any experienced help. Sometimes it might work, but other times you have a group of greenhorns galloping willy nilly out of control in the woods with nothing but rope halters on their untrained horses because it's "cruel" to use a bit. 

I had a client once who was convinced that "whispering" was the way to go and was really hung up on never allowing her horses even one moment of discomfort. She really was/is a nice lady but she let her horses (and her human kids, for that matter) run all over her. After I stopped training for her she decided to give it a go on her own. She invited me out to see her great progress. She would stand in the middle of the round pen with a lunge whip, ask her horse to move out, and then he would lace his ears back and CHARGE at her. She would run out of the way and scramble through the rails of the round pen. She'd then timidly go in and try it again, with the same result. That horse almost stomped her into the ground numerous times, and finally I offered to help out.

I got in the ring with that horse and when he charged me, I stood my ground and flicked him across the chest with the whip. He stopped, startled. After regarding me with surprise for a moment, he decided not to try it again and began moving out nicely.

Now, I've been training for 20 years and have had a situation where I've had to actually strike a horse exactly twice. Once was this situation and the other was with a mare who tried almost the same trick. But... if people had walked up and saw me "whipping" those horses, they would call me a cruel, heartless, brutal person (and, probably some reading this will think the same thing). I didn't strike this particular gelding out of spite or some sort of "dominance theory" type drivel. I did so because he was a danger to his owner, a danger to me, and a danger to anyone who entered his pasture. The thing about horses is they simply do not understand that to behave in this fashion towards a fragile human isn't the same thing as to behave that way towards another horse. If they charge/kick another horse the other horse might get a bump or a bruise but to do the same thing to a human has the very real possibility of killing them. This horse was the sweetest thing alive when you did what he wanted, but his owner had taught him that if he put pressure on her, she'd let him get away with murder.

Now, I'm not saying that a horse can't be trained completely with "natural" methods... just that it's important to keep an open mind and thoroughly understand a method before attempting it on your own. All methods should come with a warning label: do NOT try this at home without the proper guidance of a trained professional.

At the same time, if you're going to stand your ground against a charging horse you sure as heck better know what you're doing, how to read what the horse is doing, and (most importantly) be quick enough to get the heck outta dodge if need be. (Just my personal warning label, LOL). I knew this horse and was betting that he wouldn't stand his ground when challenged, and I was right.


----------



## Eolith (Sep 30, 2007)

I haven't read all of the posts in this thread, but I just wanted to share a new perspective of the hardcore NH trainers versus trainers who utilize other methods. In this case, it has to do with freedom. A lot of NH trainers emphasize the horse's freedom... they want the horse to have as natural a life as possible. Here's my little anecdote when it comes to that:

Last October I adopted a mustang colt at an adoption event. When you adopt an ungentled mustang, the staff at the corrals give you the option of having a halter put on the horse in a squeeze chute, or leaving them without anything on. Several of the more NH individuals don't want to put a halter, a rope, or anything on the horse until the horse is ready to allow it. My boy wound up with a halter and a drag rope for the first couple of weeks. He sure didn't like the whole "human" thing at first. We were scary and he wasn't sure of us. Within about two weeks however I had him eating hay from my arms, yielding his hindquarters, round penning pretty well, and learning to lead pretty nicely. He still didn't want to be touched however. I practically had to back him into a corner against the fence while he flinched and quivered to be able to touch him initially. I watched him carefully of course and always gave him an "escape route" to my side if he really needed to get out. 

Within about two weeks of backing him against the fence to be able to touch him at all, he discovered that it actually felt pretty good to let me touch him and he would stand with the lead rope on the ground while I groomed him. It was all gravy from there. Within the next two months he was getting turned out in the field with the other horses sans halter. Now he stands quiet and calm as can be without any restraint while myself, my sister or my mom groom him, pick his feet, hug him, lean on him, toss a saddle up on his back and cinch it up, etc etc. Now he's turned out on grass pasture and perfectly happy to respect the electric tape fence while he grazes with his pony buddy.

Compare that to someone who adopted another mustang at the very same event, but chose not to have a halter put on the horse because he didn't want to "force" his horse with ropes or any kind of restraint until the horse was "ready" for it. How has his horse progressed? His mustang is still living in the same 20' x 20' pen with 6' panels that he's been in since October. His feet haven't been trimmed, he hasn't been out with other horses... and for most intents and purposes he may as well be just as wild as he was when he was initially adopted.

Back to the moral of the story: Freedom. The very thing that NH trainers seem to emphasize so much. My mustang has the freedom to be turned out on pasture with other horses because I know I can walk right up to him, rub him on the neck, put his halter on and lead him to the barn. He stands at liberty while I do just about anything I'd like to with him. To me, it seems that a little bit of anti-NH "tough love" at the beginning has bought my mustang a great deal more freedom, wellbeing, and contentment than his counterpart.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*NH*



Speed Racer said:


> You need to get out more if this is the *only* type of horse person you've ever met.
> 
> I daresay the_ real_ horse people are the ones who understand that there are many roads to Rome.
> 
> Exaggerate much?


 Probably surprises anyone that I actually 'liked' on her statement and yet I'm one of the most against 'one size fits all' attitude that you could find
The reason I did is because there are a huge amount of people out there who's main view on horse keeping comes from a Youtube channel or internet website, they often live in a quite isolated community as far as horses are concerned so is it any wonder that they see things this way?
So many trainers out there are actually saying 'Do it my way or fail your horse. I could name one in particular who has somehow accumulated a huge following of very novice owners, his opinions are narrow beyond belief and he's not even charismatic but if you dont know any better you get sucked in. Then maybe that one fails you and you move on to another - and hey presto another lot of very narrow opinions. Its not easy to be confident when you're just starting out and terrified of getting it wrong by experimenting.
There are a lot of experts out there who think they are the only ones who are right and they are very forceful about it too and they are growing in numbers all teh time because they have a tendency to shout very loudly
If I were just starting out I think I would have exactly the same thoughts as Rosie


----------



## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

If you only have a narrow frame of reference, my advice stands. Get out more and circulate in the _real_ horse world.

The majority of horse people I've met, and it's been plenty over the last 34 years, are NOT like this. 

Anyone who is willing to believe that there's only one training method that's The Way The Truth and The Light, is certainly not someone I'd want anywhere near me or my horses.


----------



## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Eolith, I love what you wrote. That is also a perfect example of ranch horses that are ran wild until they are brought in at starting age.

Sure that first few few encounters are scary and may even seem cruel to the untrained eye, but once halter broke and can be touched they are turned out with the saddle horses. In the end it all makes for a dependable partner. A lot of ranch horses in their later years go on to make great beginner mounts and help keep younger kids safe while they are learning to rope in a branding pen, navigate steep hillsides correctly and many other valuable skills.


----------



## lilruffian (Jun 28, 2010)

The fact is, that no matter who you are or how you train horses there will ALWAYS be someone who disagrees with your methods or your views. All you can do is what works for you and who cares what others think.


----------



## lilruffian (Jun 28, 2010)

jaydee said:


> I have looked at quite a lot of his stuff - mostly out of interest for anything different but the comment I had to make is that people were doing this sort of thing with Circus Liberty horses many years ago and if you took all the tack off the Lippizaner performing horses they would still do those moves. Yes he does some remarkable things with them but he isn't unique.
> What I dislike is that he feels he has to justify his ideas by showing extreme examples of people using bits & whips etc really badly when in reality most people dont do this at all, you can use a whip as a tool without thrashing the hide of your horse and you can ride with a soft hand in any bit and not cause pain
> For most people the only thing they want out of a horse is to be able to ride it safely & happily and not be pressured into doing things that could cause them or the horse to be in danger so when I see things taken to extremes all I see is a slippery slope to horses just being pasture pets
> *He thinks he is against cruelty yet I would say that my horses are much happier & relaxed riding along a trail than they would be if they were forced to perform haute ecole tricks even without tack - they would hate* it


I believe the point he is trying to make is that it_ is_ possible to train horses to do these difficult maneuvers as well as collection and all the specialty moves without tack or pain of any degree. He doesnt say that all horses should be taught them.
One also has to consider where he is from and what life for horses may be like or what he has seen in the past. 
If you've been around horses & horse people long enough, you will most certainly have seen someone useing "cruel" techniques. And if you concentrate, you can see the point he is trying to make against horse sport.
I'm not saying it should be banned at all, i enjoy watching horse events, races, jumping, etc, but there are moments when a certain rider is not thinking about the horse's well-being when they are focused on doing well at a competition, only we are so used to seeing it that it has become the norm.
You also dont see everything that goes on behind the scenes to get these horses to competition. Not everyone is kind or considerate. There are plenty of people out there who want to win and will do what it takes to make it happen. The world is getting better, of course, but you can't change everyone.


----------



## corymbia (Jul 6, 2011)

thesilverspear said:


> I definitely agree that there's a disconnection between scientific, empirical ideas of equine cognition and learning theory and "everyday" horsemanship; not just amongst some NH practitioners, but everywhere, at every stable. There's so much myth and "tradition" surrounding horsemanship, things you learn because "that's the way it's done" which may or may not be founded on any scientific evidence.


This is absolutely true, its not just the NH trainers who aren't aware, its pretty much the entire horsey world. Its been very interesting to watch the "experts" at the FEI justify what's been happening at the Olympic dressge events in London recently. And science doesn't have all the answers- not by a long way, and there are plenty of amazing trainers (many of the NH) who have been doing it right and science has come along later and only confirmed with they already knew. 

However, the science is in on a lot of what NH claims about horses- esp in the field of ethology and much of it doesn't stack up- in particular the ideas about leadership, dominance and herd structures. "Leadership " however defined is not correlated with aggression in the wild horse studies, nor is it correlated with dominance in many studies either. A new study just out has compared rates of aggression in domestic horse studies and wild horse studies and found that aggression (one horse making another move its feet in response to a threat gesture or action) is up to four times more common in domestic horses than wild horses. So its highly likely its the housing and feeding conditions that leads to high rates of aggression we see amongst our horses, rather than being essential to herd stability in the wild. 

There are better ways of analysing the failure of an idividual horse to respond to a cue than respect. It doesn't actually enable us to consider what aspect of the training didn't work, all it does is label the horse and give it a moral agency its unlikely to possess. There are undoubtledly big differences in temperament, reactivity, propensity to behave in certain ways and preferences between horses. These should be taken into account whichever training method or philosophy we use. But all a "disrespectful" horse tells us is that _our _training has failed. 

There's no reason they should or do know what we want unless we train them, and the only way they know they have done what we want is when we reward them for the correct response. Viewing horse training as simply what cue do I use, what response do I want, what reward should I give and how to time the cue and reward so its mentally and biomechanically easy for the horse to give the right response gives us precision and clarity to analyse why it works and why it doesn't. 

The good NH trainers who have developed their clear, step by step systems are very well placed to change some of the terminology away from the anthropomorphism towards more precise and unemotional terms which will make their good systems even better. In fact, Montry Roberts was recently quoted as saying his method works on negative refinforcement, not just the lanuage of Equus. This could be the beginning of big shift in thinking about what happens during round pen training. 

Have just finished reviewing all of the currently published studies on NH training and what is clear is that training methods which allow the horse time to habituate to stimuli, which use the horse's responses as the guide as to when to introduce the next step and which minimise forcing the horse to comply, result in less tense horses which usually have a more positive outlook towards humans. Despite all the many issues with NH, this is a good thing for horses and NH methods can take a lot of the credit for that.


----------



## RosiePosie06 (Jun 3, 2012)

kitten_Val said:


> That's just so far from the truth that I don't even know where to start. If all horse people in your area (you including?) are like that I feel very sorry...


Calm down, I do exaggerate and joke. I need to announce when I'm not being entirely serious. But really, a large amount of horse people I know are like that. And I'm guilty sometimes, as well! This could be largely to knowing mainly show horse people who seemed to frown on other disciplines.


----------



## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

You know I find it very well I will not use the word I want to. I will just say this.

To try and figure out why horses learn in one way or the other or what training method is best is next to imposible. I do not care how much science you try and use.

Why you ask do I say this? B/C there is so much more that goes into a well trained horse then just what training method you use. You have to look at their breeding what the cross is and even down to where each horse in with in the pedigree. Then add in so many other factors that have nothing to do with training. You see this with ETs. The mare that raised the foal plays little role in what the foal becomes. I have seen this with the ETs I have had/have and been around in compairson to their full siblings who where raised by their dam.

So to say one way is better or worse or to try and quanitate how a horse is trained and how it will react is just well stupid.


----------



## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

nrhareiner said:


> You know I find it very well I will not use the word I want to. I will just say this.
> 
> To try and figure out why horses learn in one way or the other or what training method is best is next to imposible. I do not care how much science you try and use.
> 
> ...


Or "quantify," even. :wink:

The science behind animal cognition is useful, although if you successfully train horses, you've probably absorbed these ideas -- any ideas of how to effectively teach horses things -- tacitly anyway. You may not be interested in the science, but plenty of people are, so no reason to call it "well stupid." I think the X-Factor is "well stupid" but I'm not going to slag off people for watching it. 

I will reiterate: some of the NH systems are useful for training *people* in how to read horses, timing, and feel. It's probably irrelevant to you, since you're a breeder, you've been around horses a long time, you know how to communicate with them in whatever way works for you and your horses. Which is great. But for a lot of owners who buy their first horse and haven't a clue how to communicate with it, a concrete series of exercises can be helpful. It is a bit daft to become an evangelical follower of one system, assuming it is vastly superior to all others, but that's just what some people do, in horses and everything else. Part of the human condition, I am afraid.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*NH*



lilruffian said:


> I believe the point he is trying to make is that it_ is_ possible to train horses to do these difficult maneuvers as well as collection and all the specialty moves without tack or pain of any degree. He doesnt say that all horses should be taught them.
> One also has to consider where he is from and what life for horses may be like or what he has seen in the past.
> If you've been around horses & horse people long enough, you will most certainly have seen someone useing "cruel" techniques. And if you concentrate, you can see the point he is trying to make against horse sport.
> I'm not saying it should be banned at all, i enjoy watching horse events, races, jumping, etc, but there are moments when a certain rider is not thinking about the horse's well-being when they are focused on doing well at a competition, only we are so used to seeing it that it has become the norm.
> You also dont see everything that goes on behind the scenes to get these horses to competition. Not everyone is kind or considerate. There are plenty of people out there who want to win and will do what it takes to make it happen. The world is getting better, of course, but you can't change everyone.


 I understand what you're saying here but I think you have to be careful of people who take something into extremes. Nevzirov was a 'political animal' before he waded into his horse thing though I believe he grew up with horses. He hosted a daily political TV show for many years in Russia that was dropped because of his extreme political opinions and he was also a reporter and wrote and produced a film
You can't be involved with horses on a wide scale and not see extreme cruelty first hand, its never ceased to astound me just how brutal some people can be and for some reason these sadistic types are attracted to horses - maybe it gives them a feeling of power to be able to bully and subdue such a large animal. There is a huge amount of abuse that goes on everywhere and sometimes in places you would least expect it. I think thats why when I see someone like Nevzirov ranting about some kid pulling on its horses bit or someone using a whip with too much force in a ring it actually trivialises the real horrors that go on. 
He would like to see all competitions banned and he is one of these people that you have to buy into 'the whole package' or nothing
How can banning all sport be fair to all the many people who treat their horses fairly and with consideration? Yes we do need better education, we do need stricter rules that are adhered too in the showrings and enforced laws where abuse outside of it is concerned and people need to be more vigilant and prompt to report abuse when they see it. A yard in CT was closed down not long ago because one woman who was leasing a horse there became concerned for the way the animals were being kept - and they were pretty bad and likely to get worse if the situation had continued and yet lots of other people were going there on a daily basis and either couldn't see things were wrong or for some reason didn't feel they had a duty to speak out about it


----------



## Mollysue (Feb 13, 2012)

Actually I just left a stable because of hitting, yelling at their horses. I believe you can not demand respcect you earn it. I am a natural horseman and proud of it!!!!!


----------



## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

The thing is that you can have all the system that you want but you also have to look at each horse and I can tell you as a breeder that there are lines that are just different then others. So there is no real way out side if just knowing these things that you would be able to put a system to it. This is why I think any time you say do this and that and you will get this is stupid. If you say that science say it sould be this way... and so on. The fact is that these are living breathing animals and while I will agree that there are people out there that can help you learn to read an animal the fact is that it is not something that can be easly taught.

As for hitting a horse. If you do not like hitting or yelling do not come here. As a breeding farm I will tell you that there is a place for that when working with horses. It is no different then one horse kicking or squeeling at anouther horse. At times it has it place and I am not sorry to say that at times I use a good wack on a horse. Keeps everyone safe.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*standing up to abuse*



Mollysue said:


> Actually I just left a stable because of hitting, yelling at their horses. I believe you can not demand respcect you earn it. I am a natural horseman and proud of it!!!!!


 Voting with your feet is a good way to stand up to abuse - I know its not always easy if there aren't other options. Even on a yard it spreads like a disease - you get one person that seems accomplished or for some reason others look up to them and they are a bit too handy with a whip or just bully their horse in general and other less experienced people - often children start to imitate them and veryones feels afraid to stand up and speak out against it.
There's nothing wrong with the whole NH thing, Its a strange concept for me because the horse scene in the UK is quite different and training methods evolved differently so NH doesn't actually mean a lot to me in terms of moving from a harsh regime to a more gentle approach, yes there are cruel people there but the traditional breaking methods have always been quieter. I'm struggling to find the right way to describe it


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*When is it abuse*

Just had to qualify 
There is a massive difference between what I know NHRA & I agree on - giving a horse a good whack when it needs one - or a good tap with a whip when you're riding if its called for and what I see as actual abuse that comes in all forms - from total neglect, causing suffering down to pure bullying and inflicting pain on a horse either for the sake of it, because you didn't give the horse clear instruction, your own capabilities are lacking, you lose your temper or you just feel in bad mood and want to take it out on something
Horses that have been allowed to 'push' on you or show the type of personality to do it can soon get out of control with it and become dangerous if not kept in check and its only the horse that suffers in the long run as they end up on the auction merry go round that usually ends at a slaughter yard
Its one of my biggest concerns that too many people are buying green horses and taking on rescue horses with no good grounding of how to manage them or ride them and relying on videos and the internet as resources


----------



## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

I don't disagree with you, but just because something cannot be easily taught doesn't mean you should not try to teach it? If there is "no real way outside of just knowing these things," how on earth does anyone learn horsemanship? Sure, the lucky few grow up with horsemen as parents and might just pick up on these things, but in this day and age, you have to be taught. 

Like horses, people learn differently, and you can't tell a person they *must* learn this or that way any more than you can make those generalisations about a horse. That said, I think beginners will be drawn to anything which provides them with a series of concrete exercises presented in a step-by-step way.

I did the opposite move of jaydee -- from the US to the UK. I don't talk to the locals about training methods, because we're on totally different planets. The horse culture is definitely different here -- I can't put my finger on why, but it feels as if I just don't see eye to eye with people. I'll just say, however, that I am the only person I know at the moment who doesn't ride in a bleedin' martingale.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*US to UK*



thesilverspear said:


> I don't disagree with you, but just because something cannot be easily taught doesn't mean you should not try to teach it? If there is "no real way outside of just knowing these things," how on earth does anyone learn horsemanship? Sure, the lucky few grow up with horsemen as parents and might just pick up on these things, but in this day and age, you have to be taught.
> 
> Like horses, people learn differently, and you can't tell a person they *must* learn this or that way any more than you can make those generalisations about a horse. That said, I think beginners will be drawn to anything which provides them with a series of concrete exercises presented in a step-by-step way.
> 
> I did the opposite move of jaydee -- from the US to the UK. I don't talk to the locals about training methods, because we're on totally different planets. The horse culture is definitely different here -- I can't put my finger on why, but it feels as if I just don't see eye to eye with people. I'll just say, however, that I am the only person I know at the moment who doesn't ride in a bleedin' martingale.


 I do know exactly what you mean - I was amazed at just how different things were when we came here, it was a real culture shock and yet day by day and now year by year we are feeling more settled and realising that its far easier to call biscuits cookies and scones biscuits that to try to swim against the tide
I noticed that you are in Scotland and its funny as despite the UK being such a small place that part of the country seems very remote from where I lived though my husband did spend several years in Edinburgh.
I'm assuming you mean running martingales? Of course a lot of the UK style of riding came from hunting and a running martingale was considered an essential part of the uniform - and if you ever hunted you would understand why, but they were never meant to be adjusted to the extreme of being a training aid but more as a safety net that only came into force if it was needed. I actually find it really odd to see almost everyone in a hunter jumper class using a standing martingale - I loathe those things other than maybe if you have a serious head flipper to sort out on a short term basis
I'm sorry that you are feeling a bit like an alien but it will change, sometimes you have to meet other people half way to try to understand different ways. Is there not a branch of the pony club near you or are you older?


----------



## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

Just an addenda... I am not saying that NH-like systems are indeed THE answer to training horses and, mainly, their handlers. Rather, I am suggesting that a well-presented and thought out system might be an appreciably better alternative to what a lot of people do: just bumbling along with no real understanding of how the horse thinks and learns, trying increasingly more equipment, martingales, deGogues, draw reins, fancier bits, whatever, in the hope they might find something that works.


----------



## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

Hah. I am 29, grumpy, and opinionated, and from what I know of UK pony clubs, I would not see eye to eye with them. I might be a bit old for them anyway. 

People pretty much seem to use martingales because they haven't got a clue how to train a horse to accept contact.

To return to NHReiner's points, I believe there are a million right ways to train a horse. There are also a million wrong ways.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*NH*



thesilverspear said:


> Hah. I am 29, grumpy, and opinionated, and from what I know of UK pony clubs, I would not see eye to eye with them. I might be a bit old for them anyway.
> 
> People pretty much seem to use martingales because they haven't got a clue how to train a horse to accept contact.
> 
> To return to NHReiner's points, I believe there are a million right ways to train a horse. There are also a million wrong ways.


 I think the older you get the grumpier and less tolerant you get so join the club!!!!
As for being opinionated - there is nothing wrong with having opinions provided you dont becomes to drenched in them that you fail to appreciate that other people have a right to opinions too and you stay open to other ideas. You just have to be selective and question everything. I am extremely cynical which is why when I see a 'trainer' on a video showing me how to - for example - trailer load a problem horse that he has won over with his unique technique unless I see a very difficult horse at the start thats transformed into a really good one I suspect trickery!!
All the training aids you mention are just more quick fix methods for people who want fast results and/or are too lazy to learn how to use their body, seat, legs and hands correctly. I rode several show arabians a year or so back that were holding their heads 'in frame' with no contact with the bit or use of the legs because they'd had their muscles developed to be that way by using training aids. as a result they had no natural extension, impulsion and couldn't use their quarters to push forwards
Yes you are too old for the pony club. You might not have hated it though - but maybe things there have changed too - it always encouraged a riding style based on good old fashioned methods of knowing how to get the best out of your horse by real skill and effort


----------



## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

thesilverspear said:


> To return to NHReiner's points, I believe there are a million right ways to train a horse. There are also a million wrong ways.


That is why I have a problem with a lot of the NH stuff. There are trainers out there who put out DVDs about how THEY train but I would not call them NH trainers and it is not system like what you would see with say PP or some of the others. Those are the type that I normally will get. I am not looking for a step by step system. I am looking for new tools to use. Each trainer has them and how they do things and b/c those trainers actaully compet and prove they way you know what you are getting and that it works.

This is one reason that I think that people who do well with some of these systems are the ones who have other horse experinace. I have found that the newbies who get horses and use systems like PP and some others have very pushy horses who are hard and dangerious to handle. I normally will send them home if they come in for breeding.

One of my big problems with putting the name NH on something is that you get the rainbow and butterfly croud coming out of the woodwork.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*Nailed it*



nrhareiner said:


> That is why I have a problem with a lot of the NH stuff. There are trainers out there who put out DVDs about how THEY train but I would not call them NH trainers and it is not system like what you would see with say PP or some of the others. Those are the type that I normally will get. I am not looking for a step by step system. I am looking for new tools to use. Each trainer has them and how they do things and b/c those trainers actaully compet and prove they way you know what you are getting and that it works.
> 
> This is one reason that I think that people who do well with some of these systems are the ones who have other horse experinace. I have found that the newbies who get horses and use systems like PP and some others have very pushy horses who are hard and dangerious to handle. I normally will send them home if they come in for breeding.
> 
> One of my big problems with putting the name NH on something is that you get the rainbow and butterfly croud coming out of the woodwork.


 Put perfectly. Thank you.
I put a lot of blame on Disney myself!!!!
The types to avoid are definitely the ones who insist on selling you the whole package (I dont mean that in terms of cash though it often involves cash) and when you fall at one of the hurdles along the way they will tell you you got it wrong somewhere or that you are an incompetent idiot rather than them admit there are other ways to do things and they got it wrong. So you then buy into another package and you find that Step 1 there is different to step 1 in the previous package so you have to start all over again and so it goes on until you have a totally confused horse thats going out of control. A real horseman when presented with a question will scratch his/her head, give it some thought and come up with an answer based on their own experience.
How many times on this forum do you see someone posting a thread saying 'I've just bought an unbroken horse and I dont know how to get it to lunge, advice please'
My advice isn't going to be 'Go buy 'Joe Bloggs DVD' Its go find a good reputable trainer to work with you and your horse to show you how the job should be done'
I'm not saying that there aren't people who do manage to succeed but I'll bet there are a lot more that don't
There was another post on here that was commenting on the views on understanding herd behaviour from observing horses kept in groups in pasture - they may have got it wrong. Well - 'no **** Sherlock' How on earth can anyone think that keeping 8 or 9 horses on a 5 acre patch of land with a fence around it and a field shelter is any way replicating how wild horses behave on unlimited areage. For a start off they are going to be mostly geldings with a few mares maybe thrown in, they are going to be given hay as needed and quite often what I call 'bucket feed' in that same patch depending on how they get managed, some of them will be taken out for varying periods to be ridden and then put back in 
Current surveys in the UK are showing that over 60% of all injuries needing vet attention are caused by kicks and bites in the field, some end up as fatalities. My own horses have always spent a good deal of the day out at pasture but if you have a stable group of well managed horses then things are settled but when you start introducing new ones onto an already overgrazed, over crowded, badly managed patch things aren't so good. If I was on that type of yard & someone tells me that I should just deal with it as 'its natural' I would walk away ASAP.
For a start if I buy a horse to ride then I dont want to spend all my time not riding it and paying bets bills because its having the crap kicked out of it on a daily basis and if you own the horse thats the 'class bully' everyone is going to hate you.


----------



## ledge (May 23, 2011)

I agree with one of the above posters who Maintains in person with a clinician or trainer is better than any video.

Maybe we need to start a new Genre of horse training Common Sense Training in that whatever "method" one uses they use common sense in knowing the back end has hooves that can kick through a 2x4 the front end has hooves that can stomp a dog to death and a mouth with teeth that can break bones. Match that with the domesticated animal with the fastest reaction time of all domesticated animals.

So Common sense says its a horse it understands being a horse and understands communications of other horses and has all the instinctual tools to being a herd animal. So when we "whop" one on the rump its the same as the herd member above them taking a bite out of the rump. They aren't offended by it and actually quite thankful you talk to them in such a manner.

Now the whole concept takes that idea that the alpha can move horses under them and puts it to use, not natural but common sense in that we speak horse. 

its all about gaining the respect of the horse, while building trust and confidence, aside from that God programmed the horse to follow a herd leader.


----------



## lilruffian (Jun 28, 2010)

nrhareiner said:


> That is why I have a problem with a lot of the NH stuff. There are trainers out there who put out DVDs about how THEY train but I would not call them NH trainers and it is not system like what you would see with say PP or some of the others. Those are the type that I normally will get. I am not looking for a step by step system. I am looking for new tools to use. Each trainer has them and how they do things and b/c those trainers actaully compet and prove they way you know what you are getting and that it works.
> 
> *This is one reason that I think that people who do well with some of these systems are the ones who have other horse experinace. I have found that the newbies who get horses and use systems like PP and some others have very pushy horses who are hard and dangerious to handle. I normally will send them home if they come in for breeding.*
> 
> One of my big problems with putting the name NH on something is that you get the rainbow and butterfly croud coming out of the woodwork.


This is true, but i wouldnt blame the entire system on these few. People tend to get into NH thinking it's all about babying the horse and not getting rough with it but it is not. It is about treating a horse like a horse and the fact is that all horses DO bit and kick to get their point across. It's all a matter of understanding the animal and knowing when to add pressure, how much and when to release it. You can't be too aggressive and overreact because the horse isn't doing what you want, but at the same time you have to be able to tell when the horse is simply ignoring you or misbehaving and be willing to correct it. In other words, you cannot be a passive person because the horse will walk all over you.
Unfortunately it tends to be the passive people that want to try NH because they are unwilling to "force" their horse to do anything, mostly because they fear the reaction they might got or are afraid there horse wont "like" them anymore.
A horse doesn't have to like/love their leader, they have to respect and trust them.


----------



## ledge (May 23, 2011)

The one thing to remember you hitting that rump with the end of your lead rope is in no way as hard as that alpha mare that left the teeth marks there last week.


----------



## lilruffian (Jun 28, 2010)

ledge said:


> The one thing to remember you hitting that rump with the end of your lead rope is in no way as hard as that alpha mare that left the teeth marks there last week.


 Actually, at the NH clinic i went to in May, the trainer's 3-year-old took a good roughing-up from his other 2 horses over the first night and he brought him out to show to the group exactly what horses take from one another, so not to worry about using their ropes or their sticks.


----------



## ledge (May 23, 2011)

the only time its a problem is when the big western pleasure horse gets a bald spot in teeth marks a month before show time


----------



## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

I have several mares with that problem.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*kick back*

Who do I go too to complain about flies?

If I read one more thing where some idiot is going on about being an equal with their horse I will scream. We are not horses, they are not humans and absolutely right, horses do need a leader, they feel secure with a leader and with defined boundaries.
I have used a ton of boot polish over the years trying to mask bald patches from bites and scrapes
I have all mares now and I swear they are far more bitchy than all the geldings put together but its mostly just threats and scuffles.
I can slap my horses just as hard when I pat them with a 'nice tone of voice' as I do when I get mad and yell - they know the difference.


----------



## ledge (May 23, 2011)

jaydee said:


> Who do I go too to complain about flies?
> 
> 
> I have all mares now and I swear they are far more bitchy than all the geldings put together but its mostly just threats and scuffles.
> I can slap my horses just as hard when I pat them with a 'nice tone of voice' as I do when I get mad and yell - they know the difference.



ROFL i almost fell out of my chair, 5 mares and 5 geldings here (one yearling stud colt) 

mares hold grudges a lot worse than geldings

on the tone of voice they do learn you can yell at them and they get the idea... ohh that is "ask"


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*When to shout*

Oh I am just one of those people who shouts a lot - comes from growing up in a family where it was essential to get attention
Everybody gets used to it including the animals - they get to know when to ignore me and when to get out of the way or when to just obey lolol
Men may have the strength in a versus women thing but women are wickedly devious!!!

What has happened to good old fashioned common sense though? I know I did some dumb things with ponies and horses when I was young but on the scale that I see stuff being done in recent years they dont even register


----------



## paintedcandyGirl (Aug 19, 2012)

I find it funny because the "natural" thing to do when a horse bites you is for you to "bite" it back  LOL Natural for the horse anyway 

And LOL! Maybe you should have taken her advice and smacked her around a little [/QUOTE]


Hah! exactly! That's why PNH has a carrot stick= sure it's half carrot, but it's half stick! and sticks can have bite!

There is a difference between acting calmly as a dominant member of the herd, and babying the horse.


----------



## ledge (May 23, 2011)

Hehehe my momma taught me to literally bite back


----------



## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

One of my horses can do PP level one like a champ but he never trusted anyone. He was compliant. I never yell at a horse because then we are angry and that is not the time to be around a horse. I am never angry around a horse as anger disupts our thinking. Actually it is disrupted thinking that brings on the anger. I have changed how I associate with horses and keep it low key which is something a horse desires. Infighting goes on in the herd but there is much quiet times as well. This horse now trusts me and wants to be with me. His attitude toward his pasture mate has gone from bully to sharing.


----------

