# The 7 pillars of Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling



## Janneke (Jan 2, 2016)

Hello,

After trying many different styles of riding (for example dressage and western-riding - only jumping was always a bit too scary for me ) I am since a few years more and more interested in the work of Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling and his way of training horses. 

Recently his site has been renewed and there is now an article which talks about 7 pillars of his way of being with horses. I find it extremely interesting, I never before saw such a clear overview of what he is exactly doing. 

This is the link:
The 7 pillars of the KFH-world. 

What does everyone here think of it? Is anyone working also in this way and how does it work for you? 
One of the things that I like especially is how the horses are always free, or sometimes only with a rope around the neck. This I would also really like to learn and incorporate in my training!

Many greetings,
Janneke


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

I've always enjoyed watching his work


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Well...

1 - A horse that is totally free is not in a pen and does not have a rope around its neck. And my goal for their training is to get them to do what I want even when they do not want to do so. It would be difficult to get them to leave the "safety" of their corrals and go work in 100 deg heat on rocky trails otherwise.

2 - "the collection and the upright posture of the free horse"

My horses collect while free when nervous or tense. They are not collected when they are relaxed, and I want my horses to relax when we are riding. They may need to work for a little while, but I want them emotionally relaxed.

3 - "the immediate recognition of the horses’ character, state, outer and inner balance"

If that means being able to read a horse, then every horseman NEEDS to be able to 'read' a horse well.

4 - "the bonding, healing and the transformation during the first minutes of the first encounter"

I have no idea why there is an emphasis on the first minutes. Trooper was spurred bloody on a ranch in Colorado. Had Klaus tried to wear a cowboy hat while walking toward him, Trooper would not have allowed him to get close enough to do anything.

Mia arrived happy about humans but EXTREMELY tense about strange horses. Maybe Klaus could have gotten her confident about horses in a minutes, but I doubt it. What I've seen is the first few minutes and hours and days are the "honeymoon" period, followed by the horse feeling free to express what is inside. I've seen that with humans, dogs and horses. When a horse first arrives, I see no reason to do anything more than leave him in peace to adapt to new surroundings.

Frankly, with humans, dogs and horses, a "bond" that forms in minutes is just as likely to un-form quickly.

5 - "absolutely peaceful authentic dominance and confidence on the highest level"

No idea what he means. If it means getting the horse to trust that humans do good things to horses and can be relied on in scary spots...then of course I agree. Not a fan of using the word "dominance" though. 

6 - "always loose rein, Signal-Weight-Riding system – maintaining the collection and uprightness...to maintain the horse’s collection and upright posture...with a healthy carrying back and weight carrying hindlegs".

Well, western riding uses a loose rein as primary, but I see no reason to want my horse to collect and be upright. I would much rather have either a relaxed horse, or one stretching out so we move across ground efficiently. Efficient movement uses long, low strides, just as I do when jogging.

7 - "The combination of all these characteristics with all the symbolical and historical aspects of the horse during millennia as a medium, mirror and general spiritual partner, Klaus is using in all aspects in his coaching and teachings regarding personal development."

No clue what this means. I don't want a life coach.

He strikes me as someone who is very good at reading horses. The problem is you cannot learn that via DVDs. If someone who is a genius at reading horses tells new riders to follow his example, he sets them up for disaster.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I like Hempfling and I think you could learn a lot from him so worth looking into his work plus he does clinics and seminars so you could see him work first hand if you're in Europe
He is VERY confident around horses, something that's come from experience and working with them for a long time so don't expect to emulate him over night
Whatever anyone might disagree with any good horse person will tell you that getting it right from the get go whether training an untouched horse or a spoilt one will save you so much hassle later on down the line


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Did you notice he always moves with bent knees, bent deeper than for normal walking. Almost like gliding.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

He is just a German equivalent of numerous NH trainers that we have, some better than others
You would think, being German by birth, I would buy into anything German as being better- yea, to German autos!
He is not unique, has done nothing many other great trainers, able to read horses have done-just read the connection Chris Irvine got with horses previously considered very dangerous, including a well bred dressage horse no one could handle, less alone ride
Horses do collected movements all the time, at liberty. Bucking is a high degree of collection.
Still, just like lead changes, lead departures, we don't train the horse to do them, but rather to do them on command, at an exact spot.
\


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The OP is based in his part of the world Smilie so if she wants to attend any of his clinics or seminars or visit his facility then it would be more convenient for her than travelling to the US to attend similar things here.
It isn't about being unique but more that every trainer presents themselves and what they do in a slightly different way and that makes one more appealing or easier to understand than another


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

jaydee said:


> The OP is based in his part of the world Smilie so if she wants to attend any of his clinics or seminars or visit his facility then it would be more convenient for her than travelling to the US to attend similar things here.
> It isn't about being unique but more that every trainer presents themselves and what they do in a slightly different way and that makes one more appealing or easier to understand than another


 Certainly never said anything was wrong with this trainer, and was not aware of location of OP.
I know other people from other horse boards, that follow Clausmany located in Europe 
The OP just asked as to what everyone though about Claus, and I just find him offering nothing new or unique, from many other NH trainers
Never put him in the same camp as Parelli, for whom I have no use, LOL
Just an opinion, and Claus does work with mainly baroque type horses, thus the way he wants a horse to go, and the way I like a horse to go, is completely different.
He is a 'voice crying in the wilderness', far as the training of dressage horses , JMO


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Saddlebag said:


> Did you notice he always moves with bent knees, bent deeper than for normal walking. Almost like gliding.



I beleive he only moves with bent knees when he is "drawing" or "slowing" a horse. the ways that he describes the human/horse interaction are worded quite differently, but he only does what many other skilled horsepeople do. my trainer can achieve much that same with a horse, in a pen or on a long line. just that she does not used such fancy, dreamy , esoteric language to describe what's happening. and there's no pretty slow-mo, nor music to make it all seem like a ballet. all the editing done in this videos means you miss the "how'd they get from point A to point B",and the mistakes, and such. 
I personally find the choreography and schmaltz of his videos as nauseating as Clinton Andersons glitz and whizBang self-promotion. two sides of the same coin.


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## Searos (Jan 14, 2016)

Hello! 
I am new here and was just about to start a topic in 'meet the community' but then I saw this topic and thought that maybe I can immediately make my intro here .

I have been interested in horses ever since I was a little girl, starting out with My Little Pony and as soon as possible jumping into the 'real' horse-world. As a child I started with dressage and later I did many different things but I was never really happy, during lessons people often told me to beat the horse or to use spurs to make the horse do what I wanted. This I didn't like so I always kept looking for different ways to be with horses.

Then someone advised me the book 'Dancing with Horses' from Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling and now, many years later, I am extremely happy that I bought it at the time. I was fascinated by it and started to investigate his work and later also the work of others in the field of natural horsemanship. In the end I came to the conclusion that in my eyes, his way of being with horses is the best and for several years now I have been attending to his courses and seminars whenever possible. 

What I have been learning from this man through the years has made a huge change for me in my life and for my being with horses! For anyone who is interested, I am very happy to share what I learned and discover along the way so please ask me if you are interested or have any questions!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"during lessons people often told me to beat the horse or to use spurs to make the horse do what I wanted. This I didn't like so I always kept looking for different ways to be with horses."

That advice is neither always right nor always wrong. Horses are individuals. They also frequently have multiple owners and come with baggage. My horses are what I call "Craigslist horses", for the sort of horses who get advertised for sale on the local Internet sales forum and are often sold by people who themselves knew nothing about horses.

They also have varying degrees of willingness and submissiveness. How you respond depends in part on what the horse is doing. 

Yesterday, I rode Bandit after Bandit had spent the time since Christmas cooped up in a corral. He acted normal when I got him, normal as I tacked him up, and walked the first 20-30 feet normally. Then decided to buck. Don't know if it was excess energy or what, but bucking is not the right answer. I didn't beat him and I don't wear spurs, but I got his head up (and not gently) and gave no release until he stopped. Then we went on, and he tried it again. In the first 3-5 minutes, he tried it 5 times. It did not profit him, and he stopped that - but then began thrashing with the bit. On loose reins. So when he thrashed around with the bit, I held it tight and we trotted - with me using a deep seat. When he stopped, he got slack reins and I went to two point. Over the next 5 minutes or so, he did less thrashing, and after 5 minutes he responded nicely to the reins - so they went slack and stayed slack, which is how I like to ride.

He then spent 15 minutes trotting, rigidly at first and then with increasing softness until he was acting relaxed, using his back the way I wanted (but not collected) and responding to inputs in an easygoing manner.

Perhaps Klaus would have seen things coming, and been able to do something different. But I'm not Klaus, and I had less than an hour to get Bandit tacked up, ridden and put away or we wouldn't ride yet another day. My reaction wasn't anger, and I wasn't beating him, but I wasn't letting him take charge either.

If folks want to follow Klaus and if it works for them, fine. But what an expert can do successfully and what a newish rider can do successfully are two different things. What I've seen locally from people who emphasize "natural horsemanship" is people who don't ride much because their horse never seems to feel like it that day. I'm not a big fan of "dominating" a horse, but neither do I want to be dominated by him (or her).

One lady I know seems to enjoy her horse without riding him. She spends a lot of time around him on the ground and is happy, and I'm happy for them. A person can enjoy horses without riding. I enjoy sitting on a corral panel, talking to my wife and letting the horses gather around and listen, or munch on hay nearby, occasionally flicking an ear our way. In the highly unlikely event Klaus had a clinic to watch somewhere near me, I'd go to listen and watch. 

I guess my main point would be one of caution. The videos are nice to watch, very pretty, but there are others valid ways of training and riding a horse - and the folks near me who want to be "natural" always seem to end up being natural from the ground...

We need to accept horses for what they are, and not for what we wish they were.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> I beleive he only moves with bent knees when he is "drawing" or "slowing" a horse. the ways that he describes the human/horse interaction are worded quite differently, but he only does what many other skilled horsepeople do. my trainer can achieve much that same with a horse, in a pen or on a long line. just that she does not used such fancy, dreamy , esoteric language to describe what's happening. and there's no pretty slow-mo, nor music to make it all seem like a ballet. all the editing done in this videos means you miss the "how'd they get from point A to point B",and the mistakes, and such.
> I personally find the choreography and schmaltz of his videos as nauseating as Clinton Andersons glitz and whizBang self-promotion. two sides of the same coin.


I had to chuckle in agreement, although I did not use much of my allotted download data, to watch those videos in any great length
My son started a 5 year old mare for me, just in his spare time since about lastNOv.. No indoor arena, full time day job. He brought her and his two horses here this last weekend, since he is going to Peru for a month
We went for a ride across the snowy fields with him riding Blondie.. She rode on a loose rein, in a snaffle, loped nice circles, led or followed. 
No music, no training mystical propaganda-just good horsemanship, from having trained horses since he was 13, when he lived at home, and then continuing to have horses , once living on his own, with a full time job with Alberta Ag.. He is now in his early forties.
Everyone learns what works for them, but watching all of these clinicians will never have you truly learn to read horses , to under stand horses and to train them both with empathy and feel, unless you actually train many horses, and then put that training to test, riding those horses out, showing them, ect
If Claus works for you-great!
I have never taken a clinic with Claus, nor with any NH trainer, for that matter, yet have horses that like me, enjoy working for me, ride on trails, on a loose rein, broke horses I do not have to 're=train, with time off.
We have winter in Alberta, thus it limits riding in winter, when it gets really cold. Even so, after not having ridden Charlie for at least two weeks-just saddled up and rode her out by herself, loping over the snowy fields


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## Searos (Jan 14, 2016)

Hi bsms,
Thank you for your comprehensive answer to my post! 
And you are pointing out some interesting and important aspects about the article. I would shortly like to react on a few of them from out of my experiences and point of view. 


bsms said:


> 1 - A horse that is totally free is not in a pen and does not have a rope around its neck. And my goal for their training is to get them to do what I want even when they do not want to do so. It would be difficult to get them to leave the "safety" of their corrals and go work in 100 deg heat on rocky trails otherwise.


There are some clips where you can see Klaus work with entirely free horses (not even a rope around the neck) in the unfenced nature, for example 'The Horse Seeks Us' and 'Into the Wild'. The horses are completely free and they are listening to him 100%, he is definitely controlling them. 



bsms said:


> 2 - "the collection and the upright posture of the free horse"
> 
> My horses collect while free when nervous or tense. They are not collected when they are relaxed, and I want my horses to relax when we are riding. They may need to work for a little while, but I want them emotionally relaxed.


It's indeed important that the horse is always relaxed and in my eyes relaxation and collection don't rule each other out. There are 2 clips from Klaus about collection which I think might be interesting in this regard: 'The Horses Collection' and 'Collecting a Stallion at Liberty' where you see the difference between when a horse is walking free and after Klaus has worked with it.



bsms said:


> 6 - "always loose rein, Signal-Weight-Riding system – maintaining the collection and uprightness...to maintain the horse’s collection and upright posture...with a healthy carrying back and weight carrying hindlegs".
> 
> Well, western riding uses a loose rein as primary, but I see no reason to want my horse to collect and be upright. I would much rather have either a relaxed horse, or one stretching out so we move across ground efficiently. Efficient movement uses long, low strides, just as I do when jogging.


In regard to this I would like to point out once more to the clip 'The Horses Collection'. As I said already earlier, relaxation and collection are not excluding each other and according to my experiences, a horse has to be collected to carry a person in the best way. Because then he can take the weight really on the hindlegs which are ‘constructed’ so to speak like an ‘accordeon’. This is very nicely explained in this small clip, especially towards the end where it’s also shown clearly with a diagram. 



bsms said:


> He strikes me as someone who is very good at reading horses. The problem is you cannot learn that via DVDs. If someone who is a genius at reading horses tells new riders to follow his example, he sets them up for disaster.


This is an important point and for as far as I know, Klaus also never tells people to 'just follow his example', because this might indeed lead to dangerous situations. 
In my experience he is encouraging people to prepare themselves very well already before going to the horses and he's always pointing out to safety in all that people do, since horses can be very dangerous - not only but also especially if you're new to them. If you are interested in what's going on, then all the clips, books and articles are a great place to start and you can learn very much about it already.


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## Searos (Jan 14, 2016)

tinyliny said:


> all the editing done in this videos means you miss the "how'd they get from point A to point B",and the mistakes, and such.


I have attended to many of his courses and I can assure you that you are not missing anything in the videos. All the essential steps are there, no mistakes or essential information are cut out. The point is that everything is in reality happening so quickly and fluently, everything happens often in minutes and therefore it's very easy to get the feeling that you miss something when you watch the clips.


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## Janneke (Jan 2, 2016)

Thank you all for your reactions, many different opinions and views, very interesting! At the moment I don't have time to really react but I'll come back soon,
Greetings, Janneke


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

KFH has an exceptional ability with horses which can be seen in the way they work for him. Even among good horsemen I don't think there are many who could turn a horse loose in the unlimited outdoors and have them follow like a dog, with all their power and expression at the surface yet still self-disciplined. They show an authentic enthusiasm that can't be faked, and that's why my copy of Dancing With Horses is full of bookmarks & highlights. There's true & valuable knowledge there.

The marketing glitz of the videos, it is what it is. Klaus himself has a background in communications, theater, music, dance etc. They are designed to get an emotional response, but I don't think the intent is to trick anyone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"As I said already earlier, relaxation and collection are not excluding each other and according to my experiences, a horse has to be collected to carry a person in the best way. Because then he can take the weight really on the hindlegs which are ‘constructed’ so to speak like an ‘accordeon’."

The horses I've been around do not "collect" on their own unless they are in a high state of emotion. That was part of Xenophon's point - horses who are ridden that way appear as they would when excited, showing off, etc. Mine do it if they think a predator is nearby, or sometimes briefly while playing, but none of them sustain collection without being in a high emotion.

It is work for a horse, at least most breeds - can't speak to those bred for it, just as I cannot speak about western pleasure horses bred for that style of movement. That is why the dressage folks say it takes years of training to get a horse ready for sustained collected gaits. Just as a ballet dancer uses more energy and works harder than a jogger, a collected gait is harder than an uncollected one.

It has nothing to do with weight bearing capacity. If anything, it reduces weight bearing capacity. Put a 300 lb guy on a horse, and the horse will not respond by collecting! It doesn't round the back, and the hind end is not structurally stronger than the front end of a horse - after all, the front end naturally carries more weight all the time.








​ 
The problem is that picture has nothing to do with reality. The horse is not rounding its back, there is no arch and the tummy muscles do not contract building a ring of support as some claim. In fact, the tummy muscles contract 180 out of synch with what they would do if the above picture was accurate.

Instead, the horse directs the thrust provided by the hind legs at an angle up, which lifts the rider and lifts the withers. Fighting gravity is harder than not fighting it, so it is more work for the horse. With less thrust forward, the strides become shorter.

All of that is fine if that is what one enjoys in riding, provided it is taught humanely. I have no objection to someone valuing collected gaits or teaching them. But it is not "better" in terms of balance or weight bearing capacity. "Better" is a term that only makes sense when one defines "better for what?" Collected gaits are obviously not better for racing, or for long trail rides...or for carrying more weight. A lighter front end does allow a horse to swivel around faster, which is why horses collect when nervous - it prepares them for a fast escape.

What I see in the video is not a horse having fun, but a horse being trained like in a circus - when I do X with my body, you respond with Y. When I lean back, you rear (1:13). Overall, the horse looks similar to how Bandit or Trooper look on a lunge line when feeling stressed. Put it in slow motion and add soothing music, and it passes for a beautiful dance. But when MY horses move like that, they are not happy horses hearing beautiful mood music. 

Of course, maybe that is me, and maybe it would be different if I trained them to do it. I've only been around horses 7 years. I'm a backyard rider with Craigslist horses doing simple things. My horses view arena work as all work/no fun. They like straight lines and prefer to go somewhere when working. Mia (since traded for Bandit) would do 2 figure 8s max before stopping and looking at me as if to say, "Are you LOST? We're going in circles, boy!" They tolerate arena work, but understand going out and covering ground for a purpose. But then, they may be no more typical than I am of horses and riders.


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

Why are people so defensive? 

I don't cruise the showjumping threads (for example) and then say how I would never put my horse over a 5ft fence because it wouldn't suit me or her. She's a draft cross, she can't jump that high, she/I are happier jumping 2'6, I don't see the point, yadda, yadda, yadda. Because who cares. You don't need to justify not jumping huge fences anymore than you need to justify not training your horse to work in a high degree of collection. 

Klaus, like Ian says, has an exceptional ability to communicate with horses. You can admire what he does without wanting to do the same thing yourself (could I get a horse to piaffe and levade at liberty? Or ever? Probably not). 

And yeah, he has a marketing schtick, but people who aren't BSMS or Smilie are interested in what he does. Stating, I don't do any of this stuff and my horses all worship the ground I walk on invites people to say, so what? Neither Klaus, nor the OP, are challenging you guys personally.

All that said, a horse can be collected AND mentally relaxed. They can also be collected and tense. The former is an amazing feeling, the latter sucks. Dressage is hard because achieving relaxation and collection to varying degrees is a challenge. But some people like it; same as some people like jumping daft fences. You don't have to. But no need to slag it or make erroneous claims.


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

I am very much enjoying this exchange. I did look at the link in the OP. My first impression is that those are nice circus tricks. I appreciate Searos' detailed arguments. Helps me better understand what I'm seeing. 

But my own needs are similar to Smilies and BSMS. I need a horse to carry a pack of camping gear and supplies past traffic and noise, into the mountains. To carry a novice rider safely through the same. Smilie trains for more finesse than I really need, and BSMS thinks a lot deeper about it than I do. Everyone enjoys different aspects of the horse world. I enjoy having a glimpse into all of it.

ETA: I don't see anyone getting defensive. Only arguing different aspects of the topic. As I said, exchanges like this help me understand more than I would by just watching the videos.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I admire what he does! I do, and I shake my head with wonderment . But, the way he words things does tend to make it come off as "magic", and the videos support that, and THAT I find puts me off because I know he does not own this uniquely. It is skill, albeit th years of experience and a lot of feel. Not magic. 

Also, most of the videos show him working with Spanish horses that have a ton of brio. Or big stallions. I wonder how he'd work with a backyard bar sour pony, or a resistant,lazy QH. Motivating the horse with little brio.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

Actually, I would love to see his techniques in person. Maybe one day I'll find myself on that part of the world and check it out.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

This thread is in the general training thread and asks, "What does everyone here think of it?" So I said what I thought.

I'm not defensive about collection. But if someone postulates:"_It is practically everywhere shown, that a sort of collection and uprightness can only be achieved by keeping the horse between pulled reins and spurs. Leaving the horse also...in his shape of collection and strong uprightness with a healthy carrying back and weight carrying hindlegs, guarantees the completion of this unique system.._."​then an answer is reasonable. First, that collection does not require "keeping the horse between pulled reins and spurs", and that is well known and hardly novel or unheard of. Second, that collection does not result in a healthy carrying back, as shown by studies on how the back is used and how horses adjust to weight.

When someone talks about understanding the horse as if it is some mystical, other-worldly experience, I wonder what horses they have met. Mine are really not super complex. Nor would I agree with this quote:

Or you can ride a horse by resigning yourself to it’s higher order.
This path leads to authentic culture.
Only this is the genuine path of the horse.
This way I am representing and teaching.
----- Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling​ 
My horses, the real ones in my backyard, don't act like they have a higher order. Frankly, interacting with each other, they often enough act stupid or via sheer dominance. They bite, kick, and sometimes bully each other. I've got Bandit in a separate corral right now because the other two are mean to him. He is happier left alone.

I just watched the Before/After video, and saw nothing remarkable. I also watched "How the dance begins", which didn't have anything in it I didn't see when I first round penned Mia - except Mia & I didn't move in slow motion and there was no dramatic music playing. His movement and the horse's movement looked like what Chris Irwin would have said to expect back when Chris Irwin had free videos available at Statelinetack.com - no longer there, sadly. But Chris Irwin explained how and why his movement resulted in the horse responding as he did.

Watched his calming a spooky Arabian video - same thing. Saw nothing remarkable or unusual, nothing I haven't done with Mia, nothing that would, apart from the music and narrator, indicate anything special.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

do you think you could do as well?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

With a nervous Arabian? Yes. I don't like round pen/lunge line work and have no interest it becoming good at it, but if you look at where his body is, where his belly button is pointed, where he is holding his whip, etc...it doesn't look any better to me than what the local trainer who worked with Trooper, Lilly and Mia did. The How the dance begins and spooky Arabian videos look like what I did with Mia years ago.

And if I could edit a video, and add music and someone telling everyone about a mystical connection, and add in a year to practice...then yeah. I think I could do as well as he did in the videos I saw.

When a horse is following your motion, it is not, IMHO, showing confidence, affection, or a belief in your leadership. It is a learned response on how to remove pressure. At least, that is what I've seen. It really looks like circus training to me - based on the 4-5 videos I've seen. Never seen him live.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Well , I think he does quite well in how he actually works with the horses, but listening to the spoken soundtrack to the videos just makes me go, huh? It feels a bit like "The Emporers New Clothes"; everyone in awe of his wise wordings , bowing down to the mystery of it and me going, "it's all pseudo psycho babble speak that can mean anything you want it to mean . . Or nothing. What's the fuss ?"


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> Well , I think he does quite well in how he actually works with the horses, but listening to the spoken soundtrack to the videos just makes me go, huh? It feels a bit like "The Emporers New Clothes"; everyone in awe of his wise wordings , bowing down to the mystery of it and me going, "it's all pseudo psycho babble speak that can mean anything you want it to mean . . Or nothing. What's the fuss ?"


Sounds like some mystical cult lingo.
Yes, horses are majestic animals, but we should recognize and appreciate them for what they are
Good horsemen have always been able to read horses, to communicate just a bit better with them, than the ordinary person, not through any magical incantations,/methods unique to them alone, but just by having learned to speak and understand ' the language of Equus', better than average
The rest is just marketing and promotion


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

Tearing away all the marketing, watching his videos without sound, I've learned so much from his body language and the horses language alone. And that's the core of what Klaus teaches - the horse is the teacher + there are levels you can't reach unless you reach the level of mental and physical relaxation, suppleness and collection YOURSELF + it's not about who does it better or in a more impressive manner. That's just plain boasting. It's about who becomes open and truly truthful towards themselves, their horse and their relationships.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I'm struggling to see any mystical cult lingo in there - other than he doesn't always speak English because he isn't English and isn't always working with English speaking people
The music is just played over the video - it isn't played at the clinics.
bsms - I know you had your problems with Mia but I seriously could not compare her with an aggressive stallion - in fact very few of the NH people do work with truly aggressive/problem horses. However that's not to say that you couldn't do just as good a job as Hempfling - no one is saying he's some sort of a magician or the only one that can do these things - he's just putting himself and his learning materials out there for anyone to use if they want too - if you don't want too then walk away and either you do your own thing or you find someone that suits your style better
Hempfling doesn't use the same round pen technique as many of the NH people, in fact he is very against what he calls the 'predator/prey' approach favoured by many. If you study how he works in a round pen he doesn't actually send the horse away at all, he establishes a safe boundary which makes him the dominant one then allows the horse to run around if it wants too or do nothing if it wants too and then he calls the shots on allowing the horse to come to him or the horse allowing him to go to it




 I saw Mark Rashid who follows a similar style of training do much the same thing with a hard to catch horse at a clinic a few years ago.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Still, nothing unique
I attended an Equine conference this weekend, touted by those that speak, as being one of the best of it's kind.
It is put on by Alberta Horse Industry, and features speakers that are at the leading edge in their field.
This year, some of the speakers were DVMs that have specialized in equine behavior research, and also some very good trainers that use many of the principles
If more people had the chance to attend some of these seminars, they would soon realize that none of the highly marketed 'natural horse trainers, or horsemen like Klaus, are either unique, nor rare, just more self marketed


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Smilie - *No one is claiming that he's unique, he doesn't claim to be unique*.
His way of working with horses is one used by many people, the OP just happens to be interested in him and his location is convenient to her
I'm not even sure that he and others like him would put themselves in the 'NH box'
Compare CA's approach to an aggressive, challenging horse and Hempflings - totally different, but many people like CA and his methods and find they work for them. 
Skip to about 9.01 to avoid all the marketing blurb


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

bsms said:


> I'm not defensive about collection. But if someone postulates:"_It is practically everywhere shown, that a sort of collection and uprightness can only be achieved by keeping the horse between pulled reins and spurs. Leaving the horse also...in his shape of collection and strong uprightness with a healthy carrying back and weight carrying hindlegs, guarantees the completion of this unique system.._."​then an answer is reasonable. First, that collection does not require "keeping the horse between pulled reins and spurs", and that is well known and hardly novel or unheard of. Second, that collection does not result in a healthy carrying back, as shown by studies on how the back is used and how horses adjust to weight.


I don't see pulled reins and spurs in this photo










(this isn't FEI level collection, just self carriage)


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I'm not a CA fan, a Pat parelli fan, so no use using them as comparisons , in my case, anyways
My only point, was not to discourage the OP from pursuing Klaus, but rather to point out that his principles are not unique, nor is his connection to horses
There are also factors in his methods that I don't like, and many that I do.
Bottomline, not until you actually read lots, take lots of clinics, realize what else is out there, are you able to formulate a program/concept/approach that really works not for Klaus, not necessarily for Baroque type horses and training as it applies to them, but rather for you, your horse and your concept of a well rounded using horse is


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Skyseternalangel said:


> I don't see pulled reins and spurs in this photo
> 
> 
> 
> ...


See, to me that is a horse held on too tight rein, slightly behind the vertical, having a head set, but hollowed out, and I see no self carriage.
Self carriage to me, implies a horse ridden off of seat and legs, while he keeps frame and collection on a loose rein
You can see the muscles tense in that neck.
Good thing we all have our own ideals that we can find in how we ride, and in what disciplines!


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Smilie said:


> See, to me that is a horse held on too tight rein, slightly behind the vertical, having a head set, but hollowed out, and I see no self carriage.
> Self carriage to me, implies a horse ridden off of seat and legs, while he keeps frame and collection on a loose rein
> You can see the muscles tense in that neck.
> Good thing we all have our own ideals that we can find in how we ride, and in what disciplines!


I'm going to offer some corrections.

He wasn't actually on the rein at all (I used to not ride with contact) but the reins were short yet my hands were pushed forward.
The angle of the photo is not side on directly so he's actually not behind the vertical.

He was doing this on his own, I had leg on but he did a very slow trot, where he lifted his back on his own and carried on. This is what he used to do when I sat the trot and used my leg, he wouldn't do this when posting as I had my leg completely off.

It's not that his muscles were overly tense. If you look at his overall body condition he was very thin and had little to no muscle so every muscle is very apparent. As you can see in his chest, his thin shoulder area, and his hind end.

(This is before I knew how to ride, I'd just kind of pose and only in sitting trot use my leg)


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Sorry, no intention to pick at the horse, and was just saying what I see, and what I consider self carriage. Of course, others can well differ.
He is enough behind the vertical, that I would be DQed, so someone at one time has to have ridden him like that, even if you didn't (tight rein )
As you also noted, a picture is only a moment in time, and lots depends on that moment and picture angle
I'm sure he is a nice horse!
Self carriage can also mean different things to different people. For me, coming from a western background, it implies a horse on a total loose rein.
Again, that differs. 
It is also why Klaus might work more for people that ride those types of horses, with that strong rein contact and legs, while I find those that work towards a horse working more with a horse learning to relax in the neck, both at the poll and withers, staying correct eventually without any rein contact, off of seat and legs alone.
Again others may differ, and also why Klaus' idea of collection is way different then mine, far as total end picture, but not in regards to impulsion, of course!
The Op, of course, and other here, know what they are looking for, and it Klaus is it, go for it.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I am super okay with everyone chosing what training philosophies work for them, but i thought I would just give a link, to a horseman, I heard talk this weekend, and whose methods have way more application far as producing the type of horse I want to ride.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MA8f7utJmZ0


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNH60m_f8mU


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The OP is looking for something that suits her style of riding and training ideals though Smilie
Hempfling isn't about riding on a hard tight rein at all, its about a horse learning self carriage so it can hold itself correctly without forceful hands. If you watched him riding you would know that he tends to ride on a loose relaxed rein


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

The thing is that there is a difference in the way horses are trained and ridden western and English.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Smilie said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNH60m_f8mU


La Garrocha comes from the Vaquero's and they have their foundation in Baroque and Classical Dressage...............
How its supposed to look in the hands of an expert


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Smilie said:


> I am super okay with everyone chosing what training philosophies work for them, but i thought I would just give a link, to a horseman, I heard talk this weekend, and whose methods have way more application far as producing the type of horse I want to ride.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MA8f7utJmZ0



Jonathon Field is great! he is a Buck Branaman/Pat Parelli morph/mix, but he has a great way of explaining things to the human student and is very empathetic to the horse.


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

Sky's horse looks like he's lifting his back and softing to the hand. I don't get why Smilie thinks he's held on a tight rein, given that the reins in the photo are loose. Anyway, like Foxhunter says, there are differences between English and Western-trained horses.

I don't think Hempfling would be enough of an egomaniac to say that he's unique, or boldly going where no horse trainer has gone before. But he's very good at what he does, and if the OP lives where she can go watch him or be in a clinic, she'd learn a hell of a lot.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

jaydee said:


> La Garrocha comes from the Vaquero's and they have their foundation in Baroque and Classical Dressage...............
> How its supposed to look in the hands of an expert
> Alejandro Barrionuevo -Garrocha - - YouTube


 I realize as to where it comes from, and it is only one aspect of his training, and that he uses to build confidence in some horse, but does not use it as a means to an end
I would have liked to find a video of his trail challenge competition
I also realize that we are getting off topic, but wanted to show that there are many more choices of western NH type trainers then CA and Parelli, as I'm sure there are many besides Klaus in Germany
In fact, the Garrocha technique was not even brought up in his talk in creating a versatile horse, the type of horse I like to ride

I also noted that there are difference between English and western, with the OP needing to decide as to what will work best for her and her horses and her goals-same as any of us.
My replies have more ben based on tangents, that have arisen out of this thread, same as in many other threads, as collection was never part of the original topic to begin with

Therefore, I will sum up with my original thought. Klaus might be very good, and have light hands and a good rapport with horses, BUT, he is not alone in that respect, as seemed to be the subliminal message-maybe I just read into that thought! There are other trainers beyond CA and Parelli to compare him to!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

" if you don't want too then walk away and either you do your own thing or you find someone that suits your style better"

Except the OP ASKED "What does everyone here think of it?" She asked, I answered.

"I know you had your problems with Mia but I seriously could not compare her with an aggressive stallion"

Wasn't comparing her to the stallion, which I did not watch. I specifically compared her to the "How the dance begins" video and "his calming a spooky Arabian video" - post 22. As I stated, I saw nothing in those that I did not do with Mia, and do when I only had a little experience. I simply saw nothing special about what he was doing, apart from having someone talk about how wonderful he is.

This is one of the pictures from his website showing his idea of a well balanced horse:










Slack in the reins doesn't impress me if the horse is moving that way. Folks can desire it if they wish, but if they ask my opinion...well, I don't think that is beautiful, well-balanced or desirable - at least for most breeds I know. Can't speak to that breed of horse...but I would be appalled if mine moved that way.

"I don't see pulled reins and spurs in this photo"

That was Klaus I quoted, not me. I said it was well known that "pulled reins and spurs" were not a requirement for collection. Just want to make sure I'm not being blamed for saying collection equals something it certainly does not - or does not have to, at least.


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

Yeah, you don't like dressage. We get it. He's kind of a classical dressage guy (with his spin on it). Looks like he's riding that horse in passage, and it's an Iberian, so it will move very uphill no matter what you do. We should all be so lucky as to experience a floaty, light passage. 

I still don't understanding why anyone in their right mind would ride a horse over 5ft fences. Crazy! I'm going to go over to the showjumping subforum and tell them how appalled I am by it.

Or I could be sensible get back to work. Writing about branding and marketing. I hate the world.


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

As an addendum to that, I think Clinton Anderson and Klaus Hempfling and number of these very successful trainers (and by successful, I mean making good money as pro horse trainers, which most people don't) have nailed the branding and marketing. Maybe it draws in people who want to use them/their stuff. But because it elicits a strong emotional reaction (apparently, this is how you sell stuff), people are also more inclined to slag it off. 

Me? I suck at this. I was better at horse training.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_Yeah, you don't like dressage_."

I dislike dressage queens, but do not dislike dressage. One can like dressage just fine without worshiping it as the foundation of all good riding. It is a perfectly acceptable subset of riding. Not the end all.

"_I'm going to go over to the showjumping subforum and tell them how appalled I am by it_."

This is NOT the dressage sub-forum, and the OP asked for opinions. She did not specify the opinions had to be positive. And she did not ask about dressage. Klaus's Number 2 Pillar is collection as being proper balance for a horse and resulting in the ability to carry weight.

If someone asks, then others have the right to opine.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Smilie - you posted a link to the person you recommended doing a Garrocha demo somewhere - hence my post

Just something to think about when replying to threads like this...............

Maybe when someone asks what members think of a trainer they're considering using they want replies that give more insight into what the person does based on actual research and if possible first hand experience?
If you don't like the trainer but can't actually put a tick in either of those boxes then maybe consider just saying
"Not my sort of thing'
And move away from the thread
If you know nothing about them or have no interest in them then maybe say so if you've got nothing better to do
- and then move on
I really don't see how anyone can give interesting, informed, in-depth opinions on someone/something they actually know nothing about


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

No problem, Jaydee. I just wanted to point out that the trainer I linked to, in no way proposes to be an expert in that technique, and just uses it as another tool in desensitizing and building confidence in horses, same as he uses a tarp, cattle work, and a host of other things, to create a good all around horse-one that you can ride out and also show.
His entire presentation was on ' Creating the versatile Horse' 
I also did not mean to hi -hack the thread, but had to defend the idea that Klaus has 'kinder' techniques', and with CA and Parelli were used as examples to back that up. I realize they are the most marketed NH trainers, western, out there, but they certainly aren't the end and be all, nor even the standard.
certainly, if the OP live sin that part of the World, is interested in that type of collection, then Klaus would be a good choice.
Afterall, the question was what we thought of Klaus, and to me he is extraneous, I find no application in what I like to do with horses, but others might find that way different.
We all follow training techniques, that work for us, far as providing not some abstract connection with a horse, but a horse one can ride anywhere, and show in several disciplines, a horse that is safe for the entire family, one that does work for you, like a partner-at least that has always been my goal When someone posts as to what people think about Parelli, his seven games, horsenality, I also post my thoughts, and never expect everyone to agree with them. 
That is what is great about discussions-no?


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

Smilie said:


> ............... I also post my thoughts, and never expect everyone to agree with them.
> *That is what is great about discussions-no*?


The OP did ask for opinions, and folks gave them, pro and con. I'm not going to look for hidden meanings in someone's internet posting. I'm kinda dense that way. I'll answer the question that is asked. 

We've gotten sidetracked on "if you don't like him, why do you hang around?". Before that, folks were discussing point by point what they liked or didn't about Hempflings technique. Even though I've seen little of practical use for my own purposes, *I was learning something.*


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

You can learn something from most discussions provided you go into them with an open mind


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

jaydee said:


> You can learn something from most discussions provided you go into them with an open mind


True. But not if opposing points are barred or discouraged. Whether I use them or not, I am intrigued by methods used in other disciplines and cultures. Some folks I have come to respect have weighed in supporting Mr. Hemfling. Now it's in the back of my mind, who knows if it will come in handy in the future.

Had it not been for the detailed pro and con discussion early on, I would have looked at a few seconds of video, figured it was a circus act, and moved on.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I have no problem with opposing opinions as long as they're based on that person doing some actual research on the subject and not on things that are irrelevant which is how the most of the criticism's seemed to be directed IMO at least which kills the discussion
I can't see how you can dismiss a person's methods because they aren't unique
I can't see how you can be overly critical of a persons methods because they lean too much towards basic dressage/baroque style when that trainer is based in a country (Denmark) where competition riding is ruled by dressage (Euro and Classical), and that basic dressage there has a strong place in their jumping and eventing


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

I agree. I don't think it's a useful discussion for the OP (or anyone else who stumbles upon this thread) when people who do an entirely different discipline effectively say, "What he's doing is pointless. Why would you do that? I can't see the point of collection!" Or being dismissive about trainer because: "He's discovered nothing new." Well, no one has, since horses have been domesticated for a long time, but some people are better at training them than others.

I think a lot of the dressage chat gets dragged into these endless circles of "why would you do this sport in the first place; who would want collection; my horse hates collection," those criticisms from people who have little or no experience of dressage. It drags on the discussion. If I have a query about dressage, especially upper level or high school stuff, I go where there are people who have trained and ridden at that level, who can and will respond. Sure, any trainer is open to having his methods critiqued, but I'd rather see it done in an educated manner.

When the discussion is turned negative by people who have little if any appreciation for the discipline, the result is that you chase off those who are knowledgeable because they simply get sick of the inane lunacy of the discussion.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

jaydee said:


> I can't see how you can be overly critical of a persons methods because they lean too much towards basic dressage/baroque style when that trainer is based in a country (Denmark) where competition riding is ruled by dressage (Euro and Classical), and that basic dressage there has a strong place in their jumping and eventing


Perhaps, but it is a common theme that I've seen with people/trainers to gush about how they've created this horse that carries himself so beautifully, when the horse was born baroque and couldn't move differently if he tried. 
When they try to sell to people that if they only had the right techniques they could get their jug-headed, downhill, heavy on the forehand with low tied-in neck horse to move that beautifully, and then to see those people spending hours and hours trying to train said horse to move better and getting discouraged, it puts me off very much.


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

In his book "What the horse reveals" Klaus actually writes about different types of horses and how their conformations and mindsets make them suitable for more expressive movements and complicated training - or not; also, how to find the right approach and the limits of each horse we encounter. Yes, his speciality is baroque stallions, but he isn't really pretending that there are no other horses out there.


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

Thank you Saranda.


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

> ... *to create a good all around horse-one that you can ride out and also show*.
> 
> ... did not mean to hi -hack the thread, but *had to defend* ...
> 
> ...





> ... I *don't think it's a useful discussion* for the OP (or anyone else who stumbles upon this thread) when people *who do an entirely different discipline effectively say, "What he's doing is pointless*. Why would you do that? I can't see the point of collection!" Or being dismissive about trainer ...
> 
> ... *endless circles* ...
> 
> ...


To me, great discussions begin with views from varying aspects. Then upon finding persons with similar interests, continuing on.

The training forum is for training horses. Not for training horses of only certain disciplines. Therefore I feel this thread is appropriately placed in the training forum. Dressage and/or baroque types of horses need to be trained as well as horses of other uses and types.

To limit dressage/baroque training discussions to the Riding Horses > English Riding > Dressage sub-forum, would in essence mean that each training discussion should be in its own style of Riding > Style > Use sub-forum, therefore there should be no training section at all.

So many times discussions seem to get stuck in the first stage of a great discussion (varying aspects), and do not proceed to becoming a great discussion with persons of similar interests. 

I feel this is due to parties with other goals continuing to post, defending time and again their different interests. Which consumes/drags on the conversation effectually chasing those that are interested away, or forcing them to continually defend their choices. Creating an argument rather than a great discussion.

The title of this particular thread was one trainer's program name. The original post invited opinions. In this case once the varying aspects (stage 1) were explored then in order to be a great discussion, persons interested in that program should be allowed to continue in depth (stage 2).

Other threads may be about comparison of techniques and continue with those wanting to comparably debate them.

In summary, my personal feelings are that everyone is invited and welcome to post their opinions. However, once the first stage of discussion is explored, they may remain for interests that suit them or leave it to those that are interested. And could be better served by beginning, finding, and exploring other threads.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Saranda has already made the point - but I'll repeat it anyway - Hempfling doesn't always work with Baroque' horses, he'll take on anything that he's presented with.
I have also seen plenty of that type of horse being ridden by people who don't know how to harness that natural ability they have and the result is a horse that's running through 'flat' their hands with no elevation or leaning on their hands and becoming 'downhill' or all 'front end action' and no pushing from behind
That's where developing a horse's softness, self carriage and balance working in a contained area becomes important


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

gottatrot said:


> Perhaps, but it is a common theme that I've seen with people/trainers to gush about how they've created this horse that carries himself so beautifully, when the horse was born baroque and couldn't move differently if he tried.
> When they try to sell to people that if they only had the right techniques they could get their jug-headed, downhill, heavy on the forehand with low tied-in neck horse to move that beautifully, and then to see those people spending hours and hours trying to train said horse to move better and getting discouraged, it puts me off very much.


This is where critical thinking comes into play. That poorly built horse could benefit from learning to move better, up to the limits of its conformation and mentality. It's up to the owner or trainer to see those boundaries.


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

Exactly. I recently saw an ad for a PRE mare for sale on a local sales page. PRE's are very unusual for my area and there are very few of them - and, unfortunately, people who buy them, tend to buy their reputation, their image, and the result is inverted, frustrated, tense horses, fallen heavily downhill. Due to this, the mare for sale was almost unrecognizable as a PRE - there was no elegance, no self carriage, on elevation in her movements, and her personality seemed to have become sour, at least, in the video. What a shame.

Another thing Klaus stresses is - not everybody is suitable for all the horses, and not everybody will be able to work through their own physical and mental problems to start a relationship with the more complicated ones! Too often people get horses they DON'T UNDERSTAND, for which they are not ready mentally (!), and try to fit them into their own "box", so to say, and, when the horses' pride fights back, problems arise. Thus, before you "know your horse", it is immensely important that you know thyself, are truthful about who you are and work out your own problems before trying to burden your horse - any horse - with them.

And sometimes there are people who are not ready to get a horse of their own at all, even if they have all the practical experience they could get.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The gypsy cob is a perfect example of how a type of horse that in younger years was the 'go too' horse for every British Trekking (Trail Riding) centre and riding school for beginners. They'd get no more than some basic training to obey the cues and off they'd go, plodding along, dragging their toes, all on the forehand with heads down by their knees. Suddenly they become popular and people realize that with better training they can actually do a nice dressage test and be a real pleasure to ride. Skip to about 1.08 to see the test that got him 2nd place in the National Dressage Championship at Novice level




 
The work you do to create a horse that's willing, responsive and balanced to ride doesn't mean its going to be another Valegro - it just means its a better horse than the one you started out with


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

If someone wants to debate the pros and cons of a trainer, it's not necessarily because they have an agenda or that they have already made up their mind. I understand that someone may not think hearing other points will help the OP, but while sometimes I post on the forum to help other people, often I post because the discussion helps me work through my own thoughts and helps formulate my own opinion that I haven't hashed out all the way yet. Although sometimes I do things relating to horses for purely altruistic reasons, mostly it is about my own journey and about learning myself.

For instance, relating to Klaus, I am just now figuring out for myself why although many people see the beauty in his videos they personally make me shy away and not want to go deeper and read his book. This thread makes me understand that for myself I am turned away from his and many other big name trainers' marketing. Then I have to wonder even deeper...how can these trainers help people learn what they want to teach without marketing? Am I against having help available for people? Is it his fault if people don't go into the details and hear what he has to say about the suitability of the horse and handler? Do I think he is not entitled to his own opinions and methods of working with horses? Certainly he is not harming the horses.

Now, when I really think about it I have to dissect all the reasons for my feelings, and that helps me understand my own opinions about horses better. What I want for people, especially those beginners I know who have "always loved horses" and are now finally starting out with them is to understand the horse as an animal, but as one with a unique and often difficult personality. Some of these trainers like Klaus may not mean to give people unrealistic dreams, but I am not sure. I don't want people to see the horse as a romantic figure, as a higher being, or as one that has special powers of discernment that other animals don't have.

That's because people I know and have known begin with an unrealistic dream and then it is the horse that is blamed for not being up to their standards, when really he is just being a horse. I want people to love horses for being horses and not as gods. 

In my life right now there are two people who dream big like this. One is thinking of selling his horse, because this wonderful horse doesn't have enough connection to, for instance, not step on his owner's foot if he stumbles. The other also has hard come downs emotionally because she expects horses to feel her intentions and emotions even when they are frightened or upset. 
I want people to expect horses to be dangerous, stubborn, difficult animals with their own strong opinions about life. Then I want them to give the horse a good life anyway, and to value the horse for his own unique personality.


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

> I want people to expect horses to be dangerous, stubborn, difficult animals with their own strong opinions about life. Then I want them to give the horse a good life anyway, and to value the horse for his own unique personality.


 - that's a nice coincidence, that it's kind of the intention of Klaus as well - although, as far as I understand, he wouldn't say the horses themselves are dangerous and difficult, but rather they can show this behavior if provoked by ignorance and other human attitude problems.  

I do agree that his videos, mostly - the newest - can be off-putting. I, myself, dislike his current PR agenda and I remember times when his videos had no dramatic soundtracks or pompous storytelling - just him and the horses, in silence, dancing. When I watch him now, I turn the sound off and try to remember that. I am not sure I would really enjoy the current Klaus - but I cannot dismiss what I've learned from what I've gathered and two of his first books - Dancing With Horses and What The Horse Reveals. They are worth to read and, although the wording is a bit difficult at times (remember, English is not his native language and I think the translation could have been better), his revelations can be really thought-provoking.


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

So, *Andankev, *Stage 2?


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Marketing might put people off but you have to remember that all of these people that use it are not comparable to some horsey person sitting at home with spare time on their hands so sharing their experiences on Youtube for free - these are people who make their living out of doing it, they have employees to pay, facilities to buy and maintain and their own living expenses to come out of whatever they make
Marketing is something all businesses do to advertise their services


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

jaydee said:


> I have no problem with opposing opinions as long as they're based on that person doing some actual research on the subject and not on things that are irrelevant which is how the most of the criticism's seemed to be directed IMO at least which kills the discussion
> I can't see how you can dismiss a person's methods because they aren't unique
> I can't see how you can be overly critical of a persons methods because they lean too much towards basic dressage/baroque style when that trainer is based in a country (Denmark) where competition riding is ruled by dressage (Euro and Classical), and that basic dressage there has a strong place in their jumping and eventing


"we' do not know the Op's goals, as she stated she has also ridden western, therefore, see nothing wrong in pointing out the focus and type of horse Klaus is directed towards.
The OP can then decide if that matches her goals

Far as dressage itself, like any other discipline, there is a huge difference in time, as to what is seen today, and what is actually considered good by 'purists'
Any videos of Klaus actually just riding a horse out?
I correspond on another board, with someone having a PRE horse, and her trainer puts a lot of empathizes on actually riding those horses out, works them on cattle, does a lot of what many trainers do here, far as producing a good all around horse, one you can ride besides at competitions
He might be great, for what the Op wants, and only time, will tell if he helped her achieve those goals with her hrose


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

I like Klaus. Back when I was a child with my first horse, his work was an enormous help. I couldn't afford a trainer so I read every book I could get my hands on. His book was my favorite and I checked it out about a zillion times from the library. 

That was about the same time Parelli came to town to do a demonstration and my friend got me free passes. I bought his book- couldn't make heads or tails of it. It was the most repetitive boring thing I have ever read. I'm sure he has changed things since then. There is a Parelli Play group where I live- only their clinics and events are so expensive, I have never bothered to attend. 

As for Klaus, there are some things I do not agree with, but I can say I learned a lot from his book at that time. It has nice pictures and step by step instructions. Now, we have Clinton Anderson, youtube, RFD-tv and a million trainers to pick from. Don't limit yourself to one trainer. I like Clinton Anderson, if it is taken down a step- he is rougher on his horses than I care to be.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

take clinics from many trainers, in whatever discipline /riding style you are interested in
Since I read everything horse related, I have read many of the NH trainer's methods, but have followed non of them.
My mentors were horsemen, quietly going about the business of training good horses
I still call something Al Dunning once said, teaching a clinic.He was perhaps , describing how to teach a stop.
He said something along the line, 'there are many ways to teach this, and this method just happens to be one that works very well for me
I really don't accept either, that some horses, like PREs are that unique. They aRE JUST HORSES. 
Chris Irvine reformed a spoiled and dangerous dressage horse-one that handlers would not even enter his stall to feed him
heck, not that I like Parrelli, but just to illustrate the above fact-he,met his wife Linda, because she had at the time, a spoiled dressage horse, and got through to the horse, even though he certainly was not from that background.
Klaus was a dancer in his former life, thus has transferred some of that artistic dance background to his horse training/demos It is showmanship .
Look through the glitz, and he just uses some good horse sense and communication with horses, that many great horsemen have achieved, without putting it to music and dance
As I often see posts on these highly self promoted gerues of horsemanship, be it Parreli, Klaus, CA, ect, ect, I often wonder as to how I ever learned to ride, read horses, have connection with horses, without their guidance!


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## Janneke (Jan 2, 2016)

Smilie said:


> Any videos of Klaus actually just riding a horse out?


There are, these two clips for example I like very much: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ud8v6y3Sh4 and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSyycm1clCs.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I see nothing wrong with taking lessons from multiple trainers but surely someone would also want some feedback on them too?
This thread is asking for opinions on one specific trainer that the OP has found interest in but would like more info and opinions on, if someone has particular trainers that they like then why not start a thread on them rather than sidetrack this one and members can go there and discuss and share their thoughts?
If I want an opinion on oranges I don't want to be told to eat an apple!!!


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