# Predator on my back



## Stan (Aug 25, 2011)

My bio does not mention me as having a horse but my avatar is my second horse Stella.

I believe, in a caring way, she looks like a tart. That is not an insult to the 95% of members I have been told are women. Tartyness to me is not a streetwalker type person, it is a look, and attitude, and Stella has that look and attitude, which I describe as tarty. :shock:

Now that I may have crawled out of the hole I dug for myself:lol: my purpose is to prompt thought and maybe discussion provided I can remember how I managed to start this thread/post or whatever it is and all while my wife is cooking me a nice dinner. 

(I heard that, I am not a male chovenist pig) see I can't be one, I can't even spell it.) :lol:

Horses 
We humans jump on their backs, and sit in the predators killing position, kick them in the ribs somtimes with spurs and they alow us to be there. We are the apex predator, we kill for sport and food. 
The horse has had millions of years of evolution honing its survival skill yet with little encouragement it will allow a human to sit on its back and direct its movment. Have you analised what that really means in the form of attachment between the horse and humans. I have heard people refer to their horse as, its just a horse. I now, don't subscribe to that attitude towards my, or any horse how about you.

And last How does one catch those blasted carrots.


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

No! I do not! My horse is my friend and partner! And I also was thinking this the other day! You seem like the type of person who would enjoy this observation! I was wondering WHO in their right minds (or what were they smoking/drinking/insert a brain inhibiting drug here?) thought "Check out that huge hoofed thing! It could probably crush me in a second.....Im gonna go get on its back, and steer it around!"

And the first few attempt COULDNT have went well!!!


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

As you pointed out, we kill for food and sport, so we could be deemed a predator to every animal that we domesticate. 

I think many of us consider ourselves the alpha to our horses but few the predator. If the horses thought we were endangering their lives, I doubt they would allow many of us to ride them.


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

100% agree ^^^ .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CanyonCowboy (Apr 30, 2010)

Because of my career, I've always been very interested in domestication of animals and particularly horses. I do appreciate the emotional elements of this discussion, and don't want to hijack that element, but thought I would talk about horse domestication.

During the Pleistocene (over 10,000 years ago) in Europe (and North America), horses were undoubtedly food resources that were actively hunted. Current research indicates horses were first domesticated on the Eurasian Steppe (probably the Botai culture of northern Kazakhstan), although molecular evidence indicates that there were multiple events of domestication (i.e., one group didn't do it first and all other domestic horses come from that one group). Another factor that confuses this is that prehistoric breeders (just like more modern breeders) probably used wild stock for breeding with domestic animals. 

Horses were the last of the common Old World livestock to be domesticated (sheep, cows, pigs, etc.)

Work in 1988 (Forsten) suggests all modern domestic horses originate from _Equus ferus_ a small statured European equid. Przewalski horses (_E. przewalski_) have a different chromosome count (2n=66) compared to domestic horses (2n=64), meaning they are not the progeneter of modern domestic horses.

Some authors have theorized that, in fact, nomadic tribes captured wild individuals tamed and broke them, without ever moving into full domestication. The advantage being the individual doesn't have to do much husbandry except for the working horse (no foals, no pregnant mares, etc.). Regardless, initial domestication probably focused on using the horses as primarily food, with transportation forming a secondary use. 

Archaeological evidence shows an increase in horse remains from Eurasian sites at about 6,000 Years before present (YBP) that may be linked to initial domestication. Dental wear evidence from these populations may indicate some of these horses were ridden (6,000 years ago). [Interestingly, donkeys were domesticated well after horses, with some evidence from the Sudan at 5,000 YBP and good evidence from Syria at 4,300 YBP].

Domestication of horses, initially for meat, milk and leather, may have required use of horses for their husbandry, but it also resulted in major changes to the societies. Being able to move over more territory, faster, and to carry supplies, led to expansion of cultures. Horse domestication has been argued to have played a key role in the expansion of Indo-European languages (the ancestors to English, German, Greek, etc.) from the Iberian Peninsula to India (although other authors maintain domestic crops were the impetus for the language migration).

There are over 170 horse and pony breeds today. Researchers suggest that stallions were moved and traded, but the "native" broodmares were the foundation of Eurpoean and Asian horse breeding. If true, this would assist in the genetic identification of the origin of horse breeds; however, the record actually reflects that extensive translocation of horses from one region to another have occurred. Viking horses (1,000 to 2,000 years old) from around the Baltic Sea indicate that at that time genetic variability was very large within domestic horses. 

Within breeds, there are microsatellite genetic markers that allow distinction of the breeds with a high degree of accuracy. However, this appears to be related to paternal DNA (the stallion) and breeding within a breed, rather than maternal elements. 

As an interesting statistic, there are approximately 300,000 thoroughbreds worldwide, but genetic evidence suggests 95% are from a single founding stallion, and 10 founding mares account for 72% of maternal lineages.


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## Stan (Aug 25, 2011)

My reply to the comments on Predator on my back.
Humans are the apex predator. One of the distingushing features of a land based predator is, its eyes are in the front of its head. That allows that animal to judge distance. Humans still eat horses don't they.

Throughout history no animal has killed on the scale of the human animal. We are without a doubt the apex predator.

Canyon cowboy, a great history insight
Wheatermay, your inner thought on the horse show, but then so do mine.
AlexS, Alpha horse, only when the horse we are riding allowes us to be. If we cannot protect the horse in a percieved situation then self preservation takes over with the horse just as it does with us. If we are hungry and the horse was all that was left what would we do.
I wait for further responce and comment on all I said

Thanks to those I have not mentioned. But, no one answered my question.

How does one _catch that blasted carrot._


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Why do you want to catch those blasted carrots?


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## Stan (Aug 25, 2011)

Hi Saddlebag, Why do I want to catch those blasted carrots. 
They move slower than my horse Savannah and I thought I stood a better chance. I was wrong. And there is also the night vision thing.
On a more serious note. It annoys the hell out of me to think I can't catch a carrot.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

The blasted carrots, they pop up on the screen off their own accord and you slam dunk them into the basket. Occasionally you get a pop up offers you the opportunity to steal someone else's carrots, you will likely be unsuccessful because it just seems to like to tease you that way. 




Stan said:


> AlexS, Alpha horse, only when the horse we are riding allowes us to be. If we cannot protect the horse in a percieved situation then self preservation takes over with the horse just as it does with us. If we are hungry and the horse was all that was left what would we do.


Yes, we are the alpha because the horse permits it, (or sometimes under abuse/beatings it will fear us). However I don't think many of us would be riding a horse that didn't allow us to be alpha, we might try for a while - but then we would attempt to retrain them from the ground up before attempting to get back on. 

I'd absolutely eat my horse if my life depending on it, however I'd likely go for the husband first, he has more to him than my slim TB.


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

I agree with Alex ^^

About the carrots.. I have just figured out how to play the game. When you are in a thred do you see a thing called the "Carrot Locater"? It looks like a little game boy thing. It will look like it's loading and then a thing will pop up and say "Horse Riding" or "Tack and Hardware", different categories on the forum. When you see that game boy thing say "Horse Riding" (or whatever) you have to hurry and get to that page as fast as you can. There will be a banner across the top that says "catch the carrot" and you click on the "catch" button. Or, like Alex said. They will pop up on your screen and you click and drag them into the basket...Sometimes you'll catch it. That's how I've gotten mine..Beware the Carrot Bandit though, he steals your carrots back.


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

CanyonCowboy said:


> Work in 1988 (Forsten) suggests all modern domestic horses originate from _Equus ferus_ a small statured European equid. Przewalski horses (_E. przewalski_) have a different chromosome count (2n=66) compared to domestic horses (2n=64), meaning they are not the progeneter of modern domestic horses.


Thank you for this stat- this is one of the points I've made re: the unlikeliness that the Przewalski horses were the ancestor of modern equines due to chromosome difference.
Enjoyed the entire post- right up my alley!

As for the equine- human connection, I believe it is a partnership, hopefully based on trust and respect. Horses do need to know they are safe with a superior leader and that goes a long way to their acceptance of a variety of situations. I also believe they have an ability or a 6th sense to understand things and intent in a way we do not, which gives them insight into people, their intent, and the environment.


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

Some authorities feel strongly that the Przewalski horse is the ancestor of all modern breeds. Others point out that it is a different species from the domesticated horse, having 66 chromosomes as compared to the 64 of the domestic horse. They further point out that while crosses between the Przewalski and domestic horses result in a fertile hybrid .

http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/horses/przewalski/index.htm

So yes, it could very well be possible that they were the start to all modern breeds. Not the arab as previously claimed.



Horses are fantastic creatures that trust us enough to over rule their natural instincts, and that is fantastic. And that is amazing in and of itself.


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## Calmwaters (Aug 24, 2011)

Thank you for explaining the game to me to I was wondering about it as well. ; )


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## Stan (Aug 25, 2011)

Oh with that in mind I will look at my wife through different eyes She most likely has the same sentiments if considering her horse Kate


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Stan said:


> Oh with that in mind I will look at my wife through different eyes She most likely has the same sentiments if considering her horse Kate


You mean she would be slicing and grilling your love handles before she eats her horse? :lol: Smart lady! 

Back to your whole predator idea, I think horse owners fall into different groups - there are certainly those who beat their horses into submission or use pain. There are those who cuddle and love their horses into action - and then there is the massive group in the middle, who are actually probably as diverse as the two extremes. 

I am the alpha with my horse, and actually that takes some work on my part. My job requires me to be alpha all the time (foster parent of teenage boys) and my horse is MY time, so what comes naturally to me in the rest of my life, I have to force from my personality with my horse. However I believe it would be idiotic to absolutely dominate the horse, it is more about being a leader, as at any point in time my 1100lb animal could have a change of heart - and forcing him all the time to do something that he is not cooperating with would likely end badly for me.


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## Stan (Aug 25, 2011)

I missed the carrot again. Is any one willing to sell me one. I don't care how I get one now it is becomming an obsession.
The darn things move faster than my horse when spooked and that is often having a predator like me sitting her back.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

I sent you a slice of carrot cake - just to shut you up and fatten up your love handles, should they be needed! :wink:


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## Stan (Aug 25, 2011)

AlexS My horse is teaching me. I still maintain we are the predator and sitting on the horse. The horse sences if we mean it harm and acts on the most part accordingly. 
I have found my present horse, if I listen to her will tell me subtly at first, if she is anoyed. If I listen to her and back off a little she also settles down. But there is still the alfa mare thing that we are working on.

At times I think my wife and the horses get together, (It's a conspiricy I'm sure) their aim, to see who can boss me around the most. 
But you have me worried now, when I walk into the paddock and all three are there, and they all just stare at me. Am I becomming a food item.


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

Stan- you're just too funny... bring some hay and jewelry with you for a quick getaway..


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## Stan (Aug 25, 2011)

Got room for the horse


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

the word 'becoming' should be replaced with 'become'. 

Horses are flight animals, if they viewed us as predators would they not run from us all the time?


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## Stan (Aug 25, 2011)

AlexS No still working on the carrot but not into torture. How to have your cake and never get to eat it. Stare, wanting, at a photo.

Flight animals yes. Run from us all the time. yes. until?

We have wild horses in NZ called the kaimanua horses. They are a mixed breed of most breeds, but a little on the small size for me howeve,r with that been said the odd clydesdale has joined the heard and if you have a look at both my horses they have clydesdale in ther breeding. But not Kaimanua.

These horses are periodically rounded up and sold or culled. If you can get a good one and train it they are very bush savy, smart and super quick to react. But you ocassionaly get one that will develop an obsession for carrots 

So back to would they not run from us. In the wild horses do run from us, so we are viewed as a predator. 
My opinion is they are also inquisitive and it is the use of our ability to mannipulate we get them to firstly respond to us. It is only when caught and with the right owner they change towards us. But at a glance, and from a distance, the horse assesses our body language and reacts.

Do they become emotionally attached to Humans, I believe they do but it takes a considerable amount of time. Can we screw that up in a horse, yes. Check out a horse that has had only one owner and compare it to one that has had several. Dose the one that has had several owners become aloof, unattached. Patches is an example of that.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

We have to also remember that, while horses were wild for millions of years before the first person rode one, they have also been domesticated for almost as long. Humans can't even really be compared with a predator these days because we don't just go around cutting a horse out of a herd and killing it right there the way a pack of wolves or a mountain lion would. Yes there are more abusive people out there than we would like, but the majority of horse owners aren't that way so horses have been bred for thousands of generations to be around people and to like people, just like dogs. The instincts and reasonings of a modern horse can no more compare with that of a wild horse than your favorite dog can compare with a timberwolf.

I honestly don't believe that modern horses associate a saddle/rider with a predator, I believe it is more the idea that it's just something new and different and constricting. They have to be prepared for it and shown that they won't be hurt, no different than teaching a child to swim. You can't just throw them in the deep end and expect a good result and you can't just strap a saddle on and swing aboard and expect a good result. Contrary to what many people believe about training horses, the vast majority of them never offer to buck at all, and if they are properly prepared, take to it like a pig to slop.


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## Horsesdontlie (Mar 11, 2011)

I read most of these comments, and while I agree that horses have evolved since their days of running wild with a couple extra toes. That they have been well domesticated, but I believe there is a hard facility in believing that the horse is anything but a horse. They are not human, they don't understand or think like we do, and to think they are is a grave mistake. When we start pushing human emotions and thoughts into what we think our horses are thinking we start to get spoiled horses, confused. Its easier to get frustrated, easier to get into situations where the horse and you get hurt. We may have bred some compliance and even disposition, but going down to the core, we see the same results with horses in the wild as we do in captivity. In captivity it is all learned behavior from the time they are born. 

Its the same with dogs. It is a predatory animal that lives in a pack, treat it such. I do my best to treat my animals as they are, in their place. 

I am just a human, my dog is just a dog and my horse is just a horse. 

I love all my animals, but never let that get in the way of understanding exactly what they are.


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

Horsesdontlie said:


> Its the same with dogs. It is a predatory animal that lives in a pack, treat it such. I do my best to treat my animals as they are, in their place.
> 
> I am just a human, my dog is just a dog and my horse is just a horse.
> 
> I love all my animals, but never let that get in the way of understanding exactly what they are.


See, when I read that line, I wasnt thinking of it in that way. I am a big ceasar mulan fan and I have always actaully treated my dog with his same ideas (however he is the DOG WHISPERER and does it sooooo much better than I could ever dream. And I think that is the same with horses. They are a prey item and you must see through their eyes to understand them.

However when I read "Is your horse just a horse?" it made me think "Is your horse a replaceable object? Or do you really think it has a soul?", which isnt probably not what he meant. Im not sure why I thought that with the simple question. LOL... but some people (ALOT) of people do think of them in that way. They are a means to bring attention to themselves, and after that attention is got then, there is no commitment put into rewarding the horse for letting you ride it. 

There is a few young girls around here that like to beat their horses. They think its always the horses fault, and its never theirs. I'd really like to stick them on my horse!!! She's one of those that you dont hit if she doesnt think she did something wrong, lol....but then again, she might end up killing these girls, and there would be lawyers, and....

Anyway the point I was making isnt that I feel my horse isnt a horse and that she is a human-like thing. My point was that a horse isnt a four wheeler. You dont just hop on it and expect it to do whatever u want. Its a partnership (hopefully!! Very hopefully) based on trust. (Like someone had said earlier.) 

So long story short!!! I agree, lol....


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Horsesdontlie, I am most certainly not the type of person to anthropomorphize my horses. I know they think like horses and react like horses; however, they think and react like _domesticated_ horses, not wild horses. Heck, 80% of the horses I've ever dealt with reacted more strongly the first time they saw a llama than they did the first time they saw a human...but a llama is also a prey animal and, thus, cannot be considered a predator, it's just a scary thing. 

You can even tell the difference in your normal domesticated stock and feral horses like the mustang. The feral horse that has only been running wild for a few hundred years has a stronger fight/flight instinct. We've been selectively breeding for so long to minimize that instinct (because it's that instinct that gets people hurt) that our riding horses simply cannot be compared with, say, a przewalski horse. They don't have the same instincts in the same potency.


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## Stan (Aug 25, 2011)

a horse is just a horse
a dog is just a dog
a cat is just a cat
a human is just a human

Who is the brightest, my money is on the top three


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

Well, we do pick up their poop.... u dont see many people doing that for us...


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## Stan (Aug 25, 2011)

Well there has been plenty of traffic on the subject of a predator and my thoughts for what they were worth have not changed. The basic concept has been argued but not disproved, we are the apex predator. Does the horse become emotionally attached to us is unanswered.
The carrot is still free.
The brightest in the animal world is not us.
It reminds me of a true story of a farmer trying to keep a horse in the paddock. No matter what he did the horse kept getting out. The farmer was over heard saying to his wife. 
It does not matter what I do that stupid horse keeps getting out. His wife responded with who is stupid, it is you who can't keep the horse in the paddock.

Any one like country music it goes with horses just like a saddle and pickup trucks.


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## Calmwaters (Aug 24, 2011)

This has been a great discussion and Stan you are a funny man. ; )


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