# we signed ownership papers, is she actually in my name?



## beverleyy (Oct 26, 2011)

this might be long, not to mention confusing. bare with me!

I purchased my new mare this past June. this was the first horse I've ever had signed into my name, otherwise my mum has always dealt with that sort of thing, signing papers and such. Originally when I looked at this mare she was supposed to be a long term lease - however two days after looking at her I got a call from the then owner (they had only owned her for two weeks after rescuing her and had planned to re sell eventually). the lady asked if I would like to purchase her. I said I would think about it, the next day that turned into a yes so we went over to sign the papers. Now, the purchase price of this horse was "free" because the horse had next to no training at the time of purchase. Also, on the papers we both signed (previous owner and I) the previous owner added a clause stating that if I one day could not care for the mare I would give her back free of charge. & just a side note: I do not plan on giving this mare back, at all. 

So this was back in late June. throughout July and August I tried numerous times to get a hold of the mares papers. I know she's registered and such, I have looked her up online at the jockey club registration. However, I asked many many times for the papers and I never received them. Do I need to do a transfer through the registration? If so, how do I go about this when it's been four months since the initial purchase, that plus the previous owner will not give me the papers. Each time I asked she would say something like "oh yea I will bring them to you this day or that day" ...I never saw them. 

Do I legally own this mare!? I am honestly clueless when it comes to this sort of thing ....help! =(


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## The Copper Kid (Oct 4, 2011)

Yes you do legally own the mare. If you have a paper with both yours and the previous owners signature on it saying that she was sold (or gifted) to you, she is yours. As far as the mare being registered that is a different thing. I was handed my horse's registration papers when he was purchased but have not yet contacted the AQHA to have my name put on record and them send me a new one. The registration is more like record keeping, not proof of ownership. Some people never transfer their names onto new registrations. I would like to but it cost money and right now I just can't afford it... But don't fret  She is all yours!!


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## SaddleOnline (Oct 20, 2011)

As long as you have your bill of sale, she is yours. 

Now as for those papers - if you know her registered name, contact the registry and ask them about getting a set of papers for her. Explain the situation and see what they can do to help you register her. 

Otherwise, you may want to try and bribe the person who has the papers - hey, i'll pay your gas to bring me those papers - will XX (too much money) be enough to compensate you for your time?

Its sad, but I've seen horribly unmotivated people suddenly get cooperated when cash is dangled in front of their faces for minimal effort.


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

Also, if the previous owner who is not giving you the papers keeps stalling, find out if they are members of the association that your mare is from. AQHA, Jockey Club, etc. If so, sometimes if you "mention" that you are contacting the association to find out how to go about getting the paperwork transferred into your name, they might give you the papers since they do not want their name "muddied" in the association.Or casually mention that your are writing a letter to the association explaining how you got the horse, was supposed to get paperwork and the previous owners are refusing to give them to you. Maybe that might push them a bit.
As long as you have a signed bill of sale, the horse is yours.


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## beverleyy (Oct 26, 2011)

Okay thanks for the replies! so glad to know she's all mine! 
do any of you know about how much it would cost to contact the registration and get them to personally send me the papers? I feel almost a bit weird contacting the original owner at this point, I know it has only been 4 months but I honestly don't think she likes me too much (various reasons, it's strange really imho), also the only times I ever spoke to her after I purchased the mare was asking for the papers and toward mid summer I began getting a little pushy with it (not rude or mean, just wanting the papers sort of deal) and I eventually gave up. so I really haven't spoken with her since, even though when I purchased the mare originally I had mentioned that the lady and her young daughter would be welcome to visit the mare if they would like at some point - though I don't think they even want to contact me. Again, it's a bit confusing. =S


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## The Copper Kid (Oct 4, 2011)

I know that it is $50 to change the ownership. Not sure about any other fees popping up if you can't get the papers from the previous owner.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Are you 100% sure the mare is even papered? Is she tattooed or have you actually seen the papers?


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

As a TB, unless you plan to race or breed her, her registration papers don't mean a heck of a lot. 

I have JJ's Jockey Club registration papers, and the only thing a previous owner does is sign them and hand them over to the new owner. There is no reregistration into a new owner's name with the JC.

JJ's previous owner sent his papers to me as a matter of course. I didn't really need them, since he's a gelding and was an abysmally bad racehorse. :wink:


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## Crossover (Sep 18, 2010)

The Copper Kid said:


> I know that it is $50 to change the ownership. Not sure about any other fees popping up if you can't get the papers from the previous owner.


Really? When I got my mare I changed the papers to my name for free online at the JC website. I had to so the ApHC could get her DNA profile.


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## beverleyy (Oct 26, 2011)

I honestly don't know much about transferring papers, which is why I asked. as long as her papers have no legal bind to her previous owner (as in, they would still own her legally), no I don't need them but I do feel it would be nice to have them on me. & yes I am positive she's got papers - I have been told this by a couple people, and she is tattooed, as well as I have looked up her tattoo on the JC website. 

but either way, thanks for the replies. and like I said, I'm just glad to know that I do own her legally! =)


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## WickedNag (Sep 7, 2010)

The AQHA is one that will not demand someone give papers to the new owner. The owner may not want to send the papers with the horse for reasons I don't understand but when I talked to the AQHA about it they don't care if the papers follow the horse or not. The person who doesn't send the papers with the horse is suppose to let them know so that the papers aren't put on another horse but that is pretty hard to enforce I suppose.


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

I would be surprised if the horse is even registered. Thats most likely why she doesnt have the papers. Either that or she got the horse free with papers specifically to put the papers with another horse. 
Also no way on this earth I would ever sign a bill of sale with strings attached. You basically got a worthless untrained horse for free, okj fair enough, but lets say you put several years of training into the horse and turn it into the greatest thing since sliced bread, you may still have a worthless horse because of the give back clause. Now this person profits from your training. Lesson learned dont do that again. But looking at the clause it says, "If you could not care for" you would give it back. If I put alot of training in the horse and wanted to sell it I would. If anythign was said, My response would be, "I am perfectly capable of caring for the horse and that isnt why I am selling it so I am under no obligation to give it back. Personally you got a free horse and I would pretty much just sever contact with the previous owner and not worry about it.


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## BCtazzie (Jun 7, 2011)

if the horse is off the track, then the trainer or owner at the time may not have passed papers on for a couple of reasons

1) so the horse can never be raced again
2) breed as stud broodmare or stallion(jockey club or what ever your county calls it)

These were the two reasons why we never passed papers on. nothing against the new owners, just that some of the horse were very very well bred yet couldn't run out of site on a dark night. Some people think they are getting a bargain, take it to a trainer that shouldn't be training and the animal get abused trying to make run faster. does not matter how much you hit a horse, it will not go faster!!!

As for the breeding side. Some horses my having a generic condition, passing it on to the next gen isn't doing the breed anything good. Mare and stallions with great breeding and not generic issues will go to stud. 

I've seen geldings that couldn't run bought, papers passed on, back into training and suffer.


for me, getting a horse for free even with sign things over I still like to have dollar value on the animal, even if it is $1.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

The papers for my Arabian hadn't been filed with two changes of ownership. I went around and around and was getting nowhere. Finally, I blurted out, how much money do you want. "$80". Great, I'll send asap. A transfer was sent to owner #2 since she'd printed her name on the back. Owner #3 didn't exist so horse was registered in my name. I was lucky as #2 had been my neighbor and I was able to get her new address for the registry.


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## beverleyy (Oct 26, 2011)

Joe4d said:


> I would be surprised if the horse is even registered. Thats most likely why she doesnt have the papers. Either that or she got the horse free with papers specifically to put the papers with another horse.
> Also no way on this earth I would ever sign a bill of sale with strings attached. You basically got a worthless untrained horse for free, okj fair enough, but lets say you put several years of training into the horse and turn it into the greatest thing since sliced bread, you may still have a worthless horse because of the give back clause. Now this person profits from your training. Lesson learned dont do that again. But looking at the clause it says, "If you could not care for" you would give it back. If I put alot of training in the horse and wanted to sell it I would. If anythign was said, My response would be, "I am perfectly capable of caring for the horse and that isnt why I am selling it so I am under no obligation to give it back. Personally you got a free horse and I would pretty much just sever contact with the previous owner and not worry about it.


I'm sorry, but to be honest I am a bit offended by this. maybe this isn't the way you meant it, just the way I took it. 

and I hope you don't take any offense to this, I am really not trying to be rude here, but you don't know me or anything about me? I feel like maybe you're thinking I picked up this horse only because she was free and I wanted something cheap or for a resale or project. that was not and is not the case. I find it a little offensive you'd say a horse is worthless because of a give back clause (maybe I don't fully understand what you meant?), however, I went into this sale knowing full well what was included/not included/what have you. I don't see a horse as worthless because of a give back clause that probably will never come into play. and if it did, so what imho. 

I also wasn't asking for suggestions on what to do if I decided to sell her someday down the road. Again, don't take this offensively please, I am only trying to clear up things on my end.

Just a side note as well; she is most certainly registered and the previous owner did not get her for free. =)

edit: I realize the when you post a topic you will receive numerous replies, I may not like all of them. that's not at all what I am getting at here. I would ONLY like to clear up my end of things as well as the fact that yes she is certainly registered. I posted this topic in hopes to find out how I would go about receiving the mare's papers, etc etc. Again, I do realize that I may not agree with every reply in a topic, your reply just stood out to me as you spoke of my mare being worthless because she was free and I only wanted to clear up the fact that you have no idea how this sale came about, etc etc. =)


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Contact the Jockey Club directly and ask them how to get duplicate papers on the horse with a bill of sale only. They will tell you what steps you need to follow and how much it will cost you, if anything. 

People not sending on papers on animals they've bred is especially a hot button with me. You can learn a lot about a horse by studying its pedigree. I feel it's the horse's heritage and birth right. If you don't want the horse bred, then geld or spay it before you sell it. Or, don't sell it. JMHO, of course.


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## beverleyy (Oct 26, 2011)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Contact the Jockey Club directly and ask them how to get duplicate papers on the horse with a bill of sale only. They will tell you what steps you need to follow and how much it will cost you, if anything.
> 
> People not sending on papers on animals they've bred is especially a hot button with me. You can learn a lot about a horse by studying its pedigree. I feel it's the horse's heritage and birth right. If you don't want the horse bred, then geld or spay it before you sell it. Or, don't sell it. JMHO, of course.


Oh I completely agree!
I do plan on contacting the JC, I am hoping it wouldn't cost too much? I have already been able to view her pedigree online through the JC, though it would be nice to have it in hand.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Contact the Jockey Club directly and ask them how to get duplicate papers on the horse with a bill of sale only. They will tell you what steps you need to follow and how much it will cost you, if anything.


Dreamcatcher, the JC is nothing like the AHA. No fee will be required, since the JC doesn't actually reregister the horse in a new owner's name.

As I stated earlier, the_ only_ thing the old owner does is sign the papers and hand them over to the new owner. That's it. No reregistration. JC papers are only necessary if you're planning or racing, or breeding for the racetrack. If you plan to do neither, then they're essentially useless.

It's not like there are breed specific shows for TBs the way there are for Arabians. I know it's a difficult concept to wrap your head around if you've only dealt with breeds that have actual registration associations that keep track of changed owners through transferring the papers. As an Arabian owner I was also rather taken aback when I found out how TB papers are handled. It's a whole different set of rules.

OP, a bill of sale is fine to prove ownership. If your horse is tattooed on the upper lip, if you write down that number and contact the JC, they should be able to give you your horse's pedigree.


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## Eileen (Aug 25, 2010)

There's away around those clauses. If you have a give away clause then sell and if you have a sell back clause give away. I had a horse with the sell clause and didn't want her to go back to her previous owner for good reason so I gave her to the people who wanted her andI knew she would be well taken care of.


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## beverleyy (Oct 26, 2011)

Speed Racer said:


> Dreamcatcher, the JC is nothing like the AHA. No fee will be required, since the JC doesn't actually reregister the horse in a new owner's name.
> 
> As I stated earlier, the_ only_ thing the old owner does is sign the papers and hand them over to the new owner. That's it. No reregistration. JC papers are only necessary if you're planning or racing, or breeding for the racetrack. If you plan to do neither, then they're essentially useless.
> 
> ...


okay thanks, it all makes sense now =)

and like I said, it's just something I like to have in hand I suppose. not that I plan on breeding her for the track or anything of the sort, it's just nice to have those papers.


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## beverleyy (Oct 26, 2011)

Eileen said:


> There's away around those clauses. If you have a give away clause then sell and if you have a sell back clause give away. I had a horse with the sell clause and didn't want her to go back to her previous owner for good reason so I gave her to the people who wanted her andI knew she would be well taken care of.


that's always good to know. I mean, I definitely don't plan on giving her away/selling her anytime but you never know what can happen, so it is comforting to know that there are other ways around this.


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## Eileen (Aug 25, 2010)

I'll never understand why a persn who is giving away a horse would want it back, I would think they would want the new owner to find a good home for it. oh yes if it is a sell clause and you want to sell to someone else use give away bill of sale and charge seperate for trainning.


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## beverleyy (Oct 26, 2011)

I don't get it either, but I am honestly really happy to have this mare either way. and I certainly wouldn't plan on giving her to somebody else or to the previous owner at any point, but you never know. All I know is I am happy to have her! =)


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## Eileen (Aug 25, 2010)

I have had two given horses and wouldn't sell or give them away. my first we had until she died many year ago but we had her for many years and all my kids learned to ride on her. Our newest is a regestered paint and and even though she is leagly mine she is my 15 year old grandaughters first horse. I posted pictures of both of them on my horse page.


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## beverleyy (Oct 26, 2011)

Eileen said:


> I have had two given horses and wouldn't sell or give them away. my first we had until she died many year ago but we had her for many years and all my kids learned to ride on her. Our newest is a regestered paint and and even though she is leagly mine she is my 15 year old grandaughters first horse. I posted pictures of both of them on my horse page.


that is so sweet about the first pony, I would love that with mine =) It's just adorable when kids take after their parents and learn to ride as well.


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## Eileen (Aug 25, 2010)

I agree it is nice. We adopted our granddaughter 2 years ago, and needed a lot of love and care. She has never been in trouble and is a good kid. She loves her horse and looks forward to going to a barn where the other boarders are girls her own age and being able to make friends. It has been very therapeutic for her and for her horse who has a back ground much like hers they are a great pair. Oh and our granddaughter loves it when we all can to ridding together.


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## beverleyy (Oct 26, 2011)

I'm glad she has something like that she enjoys, and even better you can do it as a family. I think that's what more families need! I remember being in high school and feeling so left out all the time, but then I'd go out to my pony and felt so incredibly happy. Just grooming her or going on a bareback trail ride made me the happiest person in the world, and that pony still makes me so happy. Hanging out in her stall is the nicest thing in the world to me. =)


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## THN (Oct 11, 2011)

Just make sure to keep that bill of sale because the old owner may try to pull a fast one trying to claim her using the registration paperwork. As long as you have the bill of sale your set. It's hard to tell if the old owner is just forgetful, lazy or malicious. I would transfer her to your name just so that everything is up to date and the registry has your name. i would dot the "i"s and cross the "t"s just to have a little extra peace of mind.


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## Eileen (Aug 25, 2010)

Not only keep the original bill of sale or transfer be sure to make copies of it that's the paper that proves ownership. Registration papers only prove lineage of the horse.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

THN said:


> It's hard to tell if the old owner is just forgetful, lazy or malicious.


How about 'none of the above'? :?

As has already been stated numerous times, registration papers DO NOT denote ownership, and JC registration papers are basically _useless_ unless the new owner plans to race the horse or breed for the racetrack.

The horse was untrained and just taking up space. I hardly think there's some nefarious plot afoot for the previous owner to try and reclaim the animal at some later point in time.

OP, you should also be aware that a first right of refusal/give back clause is unenforceable, so even if you decided at a later date you don't want the mare, you're under no legal obligation to give her back to her previous owner. Moral obligation now, that's another story.


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## beverleyy (Oct 26, 2011)

I am well aware (now) that those registration papers don't denote ownership. I am also aware that it would be useless for me to have them since I obviously do not plan to race this mare or breed her for the track. 

All I am saying is that it's a nice thing to have. is there any reason I shouldn't want my horse's papers? or want her in my name? It's peace of mind imo. it's something I like to have with ALL of my horses (provided they have papers, if not that's all fine and dandy).


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## Eileen (Aug 25, 2010)

when I acquired dawn it was through my brother-in-law. e called me one night asking if I wanted a horse for free that was owned by a girl going to college and her father didn't want the expenses of the horse, of course I said yes but I wanted it in witting from both the girl and her father that they transferred ownership. I received it but a couple of years my brother-in-law was telling everyone he had part ownership of her. I was so glad for that transfer paper making her mine his name was not on it. I did get him to making claims of ownership when I told him I was going to send him a bill for half the board, feed, shoeing and vet costs. I too have papers and have had papers on my registered horses but when a third party is involved I want a bill of sale or transfer from the owner.

With Toby I have both and glad to have them because she also was third party horse and her former owner ( I found out because she contacted our granddaughter) lives only a few minutes away from where keep her and just showed up uninvited to our stable when we were no there. I promptly let the stable owner know the situation and he agree not to let her come unless we are there and give permission


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