# Parelli clinic for me?



## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

Hi everyone

My barn is doing a Parelli clinic in the fall. They're having someone come in for a day or two, I think. They're going to be teaching those games. My question is, do I want to try this with any of my horses?

Moonshine and my daughter are already doing trick training and I'm not sure she would want to introduce anything new at this point.

Teddy has really good manners, and all of the work I've done with him has been about the two of us figuring each other out and coming to understand each other, on terms that we can both accept. He likes things to stay the same, and I see no reason to introduce something new to him.

Pony is friendly and fun, but likes to challenge. It took a long time to get him to where he (usually) does what I want. He still likes to act up every now and then. I am the leader in our relationship for sure, but he often tests me just to be certain that that's still the case. We've had our ups and downs but are generally in a good place. Still, he could be better.

I will go ahead and put it out there that I feel like some Parelli enthusiasts are a bit... enthusiastic. Which is a bit off-putting. And it does seem like sometimes people use Parelli as sort of a crutch, if that makes sense. I don't want to offend anyone by saying that, but it's how I feel. But I am the sort of person who can find value in just about anything, and there might be some value here for me. Should I register for this with Pony? I guess I'm leaning toward yes, because why not. Right? I'm not planning on embarking on a long course of Parelli training, just participating in this class and seeing how it goes.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I think if you were interested and the fee was nominal - I'd look into auditing the class instead of attending. I would guess it's only $25 or around that to bring a lawn chair and watch the clinic....


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## kewpalace (Jul 17, 2013)

A 2nd auditing vote. I've done that with quite a few trainers that I was interested in but not sure I would like. Auditing was money well spent. I don't think I would have liked to ride with them (or in this case, play the games).


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Audit. If you like what you see, consider attending with a horse in the future. If you don't, then you aren't out anything but a small fee and some time. 

Parelli is one of those trainers that you will either love or hate. I personally wouldn't walk across the street to see him, but others really like him.


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

Another vote for auditing.


You may learn a technique that you can use in the future. Or you may learn what not to do and why not.


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## ClearDonkey (Nov 27, 2016)

Is it a clinic with Linda and Pat, or a clinic with one of their Parelli instructors? I personally like the methods that they use for certain horses, especially when they get into the right-brain/left-brain introvert/extrovert theory. A lot of people may bash this, but the way they can cater their method to a variety of horse personalities (horsenalities) is very handy. I have owned three right-brained (high fear) horses, with one being an introvert (Minnie, though occasionally extroverted) and one being an extrovert (Flicka, Flame). Methods that include a lot of pressure and pushing, i.e. Clinton Anderson and the like, just cause them to explode and you get no where. 

I have not personally attended one of their clinics, but my start in horses was underneath a group of older women that followed the method and used it on their horses. One of them was very well versed in the Parelli method, and was far into the liberty work that they do (level 4) and the way she could communicate with her horse was amazing. All of their horses were a pleasure to be around, and they helped me get my previously abused mare (Flame) over a lot of her baggage. 

Some Parelli followers don't use the method properly, and their horses are rude, but when you take the right stuff and apply it the right way, it works. I would go and audit, and if you are interested, Parelli has a bunch of online courses and what not.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

_*Audit...*_

Not knocking any of the "training methods" of any hyped trainer...
It took you a long time to build that bond between you and Pony...
I would not be happy to see it evaporate because the pony did not like the handler teaching if not you.

Audit instead...watch, learn some different technique and apply as needed, when needed and with your tweaking that fits your pony over a period of time would be more beneficial I think to you in the long-run.
Not everything any hyped trainer does works for every animal either...pick and choose for your specific animal. :smile:

Don't be so fast to separate $$ from your pocket either.
Many resell their gimmick toys cheaply soon after the fad passes at a great savings to you, or just make them yourself or improvise...
:runninghorse2:


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

The bond (or whatever you want to call it) is not going to evaporate. You may love it.....it is more than likely not going to be Pat and Linda, but one of their students who payed big bucks to go to the school. 

There is never anything wrong with teaching a horse something new or different. They will always enjoy what we enjoy.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Who is the clinician? I frequently attend clinics that Pete Rodda puts on, he started out as a Parelli instructor but has developed his own spin on things, so it's Parelli but more. I really like him and I'm not a huge Parelli fan. I DO like the 7 games and find them useful, especially for young horses not under saddle yet. So I guess my vote is AUDIT.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

ACinATX said:


> I'm not planning on embarking on a long course of Parelli training, just participating in this class and seeing how it goes.


My vote is to skip it. If you're not planning to embark on a long course of Parelli, it's pretty useless. 
I was in a similar situation a few years ago, and went to the clinic because "games" sounded fun. They're not really games, and quite dissimilar to anything like trick training. Horses don't perceive the "games" as enjoyable at all. 

You're just teaching an alternative method of backing, lunging, and moving away from pressure, which is fine, but if your horse already has learned the traditional way of doing those things it is quite pointless.

The idea is that you will form a bond that will help later in riding, but it takes so long to get to anything that relates to riding that many followers never ride and only do ground work. Spending time handling your horse using Parelli methods is no more likely to help make a bond with your horse than just handling your horse in general. Perhaps it encourages some to spend time handling their horse. 

Understanding your horse's individual personality is emphasized, and I agree this is important. If you search online for horse personalities, you can find a lot of various information for free on how to evaluate different types of horse personalities.


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## mslady254 (May 21, 2013)

not that it matters, but who is the instructor ? It won't be Pat or Linda, they only do the tour stops and the advanced clinics for high level students or for instructors
at one of the centers, either Ocala, Fl or Pagosa Springs, Co. All of the instructors that I've seen or been in a clinic with are awesome. All of the clinics that I've done, 
except one, have followed the same format: Begin each day with a talk. First part of the morning is what most people call Groundwork, in Parelli Natural Horsemanship (PNH), 
it's called the Online Savvy. Mid morning-brief break for water or restroom, then either resume Online or do Liberty depending on how advanced the clinic is. Lunch break about
an hour, then riding (Freestyle Savvy) for the afternoon. There are 4 'Savvies', but unless it's a very advanced class, the advanced riding (Finesse Savvy) isn't much touched
on. Yes, you will learn 'the games', but it's so much more than that. Simply learning the games is only the tip of a very big iceberg. The first morning talk will focus on
how you were introduced to PNH, how long you've been studying PNH, where you feel you are with your horse in the journey, what you hope to get out of the clinic-whether 
specific tasks such as flying lead changes-online,liberty,or freestlye.....lateral maneuvers---online,libery,or freestyle , or general goals -to be a better leader,,,to 
advance your circle game, etc. The following mornings will focus on " any questions from yesterday, anything come up that you want to do today now that you found some 
holes yesterday, etc. The instuctor will talk about the 8 Principles, the 7 Keys to Success and probably the 10 things to do with excellence (of course every thing should be 
done with excellence..lol , but there are 10 specific things that Pat really wants to see his students do with excellence ) . You can google "Parelli Principles', or "7 keys
to success" and see what those are about. They will help the students explore how to use
the theory of the principles and keys to continually advance in their horsemanship, ie how much softer can the cue be to get the same response, then can the cue remain that 
soft and get a more connected and engaged response, or how much distance can be added and still get the same response, then how much distance can be added and get a better
response. (distance of course only applies to Online and Liberty...lol...can't get a distance from your horse when you're riding, not a desired thing!..LOL!!) They will
talk about the stages of competence to help the students be aware of their own level of competence. They will talk about the stages of teaching ...teach, reinforce, refine 
(I think...seems like theres a 4th) All the theory really makes you dig deeper and think. They will talk about focus and feel...a lot. As others of said, I think auditing
would be a great choice for you if you remain unsure of whether you want to be in the clinic. The instructors are very good to include the auditors. I think you will 
be pleasantly surprised if you go.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

Kerri April is the instructor.


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## mslady254 (May 21, 2013)

I don't know Kerri. But, as I said, every instructor I've ever watched or lessoned with was awesome, including 1 star instructors. I see from the Parelli.com website that she is a 4 Star Instructor, so that's great!! There is only 1 6 Star instructor, only 11 5 star instructors, so a 4 star is quite high in the heirarchy of instructors. She should be excellent!! Keep us posted if you go, even to audit. Have fun!


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

When I looked into the local parelli club, the costs were substantial. Like $15-$30 for each playday or event. Not sure what clinics cost but I'm sure they were expensive. I liked Parelli until i read his book and couldn't make heads or tails of it. So boring and repetitive. I find Clinton Anderson is a much better instructor and it is easier to adjust his methods to highly sensitive horses.


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## mslady254 (May 21, 2013)

@4horses, local clubs aren't directly associated with or rules set by the official Parelli Savvy Club. For example, our Middle Tn. group/club is free for membership, free for playdays and the only cost would be an event that offers lessons with an instructor. Those costs would be the actual cost of the lesson and travel fee, if any, charged by and paid directly to the instructor. Yes, the clinics are expensive, I'd say anywhere from $150 to $200 per day, but I'm not sure how that compares to clinics by non Parelli Instructors or trainers. I've read 2 of Pat's books and I enjoyed one a lot more than the other. The 'Horse-Man-Ship' book was chock full of good horsemanship information for me. I'd also tend to disagree with Anderson being better and his methods easier to adjust to highly sensitive horses, but that's just my opinion differing from yours. I think Anderson tends to use more of a cookie-cutter approach to every horse he works with , whereas the Parelli's adjust to each horse, in the MOMENT, and are constantly reading the horse for those adjustments. Again, just my opinion and experience. I do know that in lessons and clinics that I've done, reading the horse and constantly adjusting is a big part of what is taught and demostrated.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Watching a Parelli clinic might be very interesting if you have never seen how 'natuaral horsemanship' type ground work is done. All of these clinicians more or less got their start from Ray Hunt and Tom Dorrance. Parelli and Anderson just sort of morphed it into their own approach, in order to transmit it to others, in a profitable manner. 



To be profitable, it needs to have appeal of one kind or another. Parelli chose to to look at it as almost pyschotherapy; analyzing your horse, and taking movements and systematizing them it into 'games' that one would learn and then stack upon each other to reach greater goals. His use of outlines and numbers "the 7 games' the ten principles or whatever, makes me feel like I'm back in high school, trying to cram in a bunch of data so that I can pass a test. Too much analzying and memorizing for me. 

It can be nice to learn how to move a horse around on the ground, in a step by step manner, and then you sort of have some 'tools', but the way things are very strictly laid out in formalized progression can lead people to focus more on that than on the horse itself.



Clinton Anderson's appeal, in my opinion, is making every person feel more powerful, like they can achieve power over their horse and get a 'better' horse than they have, one that obeys quickly and doesn't give you any trouble . . . or else. I find that this often sets people up into thinking of every interaction with a horse as potentially confrontational, so they answer everything with force and power.


But, you have to look around, watch, and question until you see something that you feel can work for you.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

Thanks everyone. They had a session today that we could audit, so we did. When the intructor came over to introduce herself, I got that sort of cultish feeling from her, like Parelli was THE one truth path, but watching the actual clinic, there was a lot of useful information. One thing she was really good about was getting on the students to make sure they released pressure at the right time. I think this could be useful to my daughter and Moonshine. And I think some of it might be useful for me and Pony. I'm thinking that doing a one-day or half-day clinic could be enough to give us the basic information that would help us, without having to really buy into the whole program (literally, LOL). Although I've had a lot of horse related expenses this month, so I guess we'll have to see.

One thing that was a little head spinning, sort of tracking into what @tinyliny said above, was all of the terminology. There's like four levels, and four zones, and four... something else, I already forgot what. Steps? Why are there four of everything? I kind of understand wanting to label everything so that, I don't know, maybe we can take notes and study at home, but to me a certain amount of natural horsemanship involves "feel," and having all of those levels and zones sort of detracts from that.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

Also, completely unrelated, but I really found this shocking.

The clinic was held at a facility that does therepeutic riding. I was told they have 10 horses on 4 acres. This place does not have a source of water! No ground water, no city water, no well water. They get their water by truck! I can't imagine having 10 horses and no water source. Maybe it's something that's not uncommon, and I just never knew?

I asked one the the volunteers if they had ever thought about drilling a well. He said they were thinking about it now, but it's about 460 feet down (must be the aquifer) and that's through solid West Texas limestone. I can't imagine how expensive that would be. But maybe eventually cheaper than having it trucked?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I'm sure you can get something from watching. Do more watching of the body of the handler, and the horse, than listening to their words. You will start to see when they release, and what the horse does. 

And yes, FEEL and TIMING are EVERYTHING!!!! and they can't be learned in a book. . . only by watching, and doing, over and over and over and over and . . . .


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

ACinATX said:


> The clinic was held at a facility that does therepeutic riding. I was told they have 10 horses on 4 acres. This place does not have a source of water! No ground water, no city water, no well water. They get their water by truck!


I moved my horses out of a place like that. It had about 17 horses. They had some water runoff from the barn roof, but we weren't allowed to bathe horses when the weather was hot, just use a little water with a sponge in a bucket. It was tolerable until the owner was going through a divorce in the middle of summer, and then she was too distracted to keep up with the water. I think her excuse when I complained was that even if she filled all the troughs, the horses drank it all right away. I came out twice and saw the horses waiting by their trough, and then my horses were out of there.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

@gottatrot Wow, just wow.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

Followup because I know people like followup. The clinic was yesterday.

Pony and Moonshine both really seemed to enjoy the groundwork part of the clinic. I accomplished my two goals: (1) get Pony to lunge (I mean, play circle game, cough cough) and (2) do something with Pony that was fun for both of us. He really seemed to have a great time, even though we were there for hours and his only reward was praise (well, and one cookie). I think he enjoyed learning new things and also having me paying a lot of attention to him. He loves it when people pay attention to him. My daughter reports that Moonshine also seemed to enjoy it.

I also asked some questions I had about Parelli, and I got answers that I thought were mostly reasonable.

There was a riding portion in the afternoon, and none of us (horses or people) enjoyed it at all. It was, IMO, just silly, with questionable ideas, little structure, and no logical progression. By the end of it, Moonshine was pinning her ears at everything and everyone. Pony was balking and being very unwilling. We people were annoyed at the nature of the exercises. So we definitely wouldn't do that again.

If this lady comes back, we would consider doing another clinic with her. For me, it's mostly because Pony really, really seemed to have a good time. My daughter thinks that some of what they did could be useful for Moonshine, and again she thinks Moonshine enjoyed herself.

Also, I put Teddy in the paddock next to the arena so he could be close to his friends. He seemed to enjoy watching everyone and getting the occasional pat.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

How many riders were in the arena at the same time? Can you describe some of the pointless things you were being asked to do? I'm curious as to why it was so different from the ground work part, that you say the hroses enjoyed.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

Five riders. 

To be fair, I think the point of the riding work was to demonstrate how what we had been doing on the ground could translate to work in the saddle, e.g. turn on the forehand, turn on backhand. But unless you're training a horse yourself, I mean actually training it, I don't think this is relevant to most people. Because when you buy a trained horse I'd expect it to already know how to do this.

One rein stop. She was a one-rein-stop evangelist. I understand that some people really swear by this, but at the same time I know enough to understand that this isn't going to work with all horses at all times. But to listen to her, it was the be-all-end-all ultimate safety feature. So we were supposed to only stop our horses using the one-rein stop, the whole time. Like my daughter said to me, "Towards the end, me and Moonshine agreed that we were just going to go back to a regular stop."

Letting the horses walk around with no direction while trying to be in complete harmony with them. Like, if the horse lowers its head you lower your head, etc. The horses kept drifting toward each other, sometimes dangerously so, so I spent most of my time steering Pony away from others, rather than "being in harmony" with him. I think the point of this exercise was to learn to have a following seat ("peddle your feet when they walk") but it did not work out that way.

Back to one rein stop. She said she would like us to practice this 10,000 times before she comes back. Literally 10,000 times. First of all, no. Second of all, what horse wants to do something like that 10,000 times?

Backing up. OK, to be fair, I have not asked Pony to back up a lot, and it was good to work on it with him, but backing up with Parelli is a seven (or was it nine?) step process that had to be followed each time. Let me see if I remember: reins lifted up, use one hand to slide down the reins to tighten. Close fingers over reins one-by-one, pull elbows back, put pressure on with heels. That is the only way you are supposed to back up your horse. Maybe at some point, once people aren't beginners, they are allowed to skip some of these steps. Who knows. I won't be finding out, LOL.

I feel like there was one other annoying thing, but that might be it. Then we did a "pattern" where we just repeated all of this stuff over and over, much to the annoyance of our horses.

Hmm. It's actually a good question, why did they enjoy the groundwork so much but dislike the ridden work. I think the horses got annoyed because of a combination of lack of clarity (what exactly are you asking me to do, and what is the point of it?), the fact that a lot of it was physically demanding (turns on forehand and backhand, backing up), and because (at least in our case) there was a lot of lack of clear direction followed by a sharp rider response (e.g. "Walk wherever you want for five minutes OH MY GOD NOT THERE TURN AROUND RIGHT NOW"). And the repetition. That's my best guess. I guess, also, at least my daughter and I didn't really enjoy it that much, and maybe that rubbed off on our horses.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

ACinATX said:


> Hi everyone
> 
> My barn is doing a Parelli clinic in the fall. They're having someone come in for a day or two, I think. They're going to be teaching those games. My question is, do I want to try this with any of my horses?
> 
> ...


Forget Parelli. Forget learning horse training from a "canned" system. These trainers that sell DVD's, books, etc... are not teaching you to train horses. They show you some tricks. Some of the tricks my work with some horses sometimes.

It's a bit like me telling you (providing that you don't Mandarin Chinee or anything about teaching) that I have 10 hours of DVD's that will teach you how to teach people to be fluent in Mandarin Chinese. You're not going to be fluent with just 10 hours (or even 50 hours) of instruction on Mandarin so how are you going to teach others to be fluent. These guys are modern version of the old snake oil salesmen. I'm not saying that Pat does not know how to train a horse. You just can't learn it in a clinic any more than you could lean brain surgery in a clinic. Training horses (real, honest to God training of a horse) requires two major things (in addition to many lesser things). You must understand horses in general (those things that are true and common to 99% of all equines...hardwired in them by nature) and the specific, individual horse you are working with (because every horse is a unique personality....just like people). No one can teach you all of that in a clinic or in a set of DVD. Just a lot of tricks that may or may not work with any given horse. I've seen some work fine, work marginally, fail, fail miserably and fail tragically. I even watched a video of Pat failing tragically in front of an audience and then office what I found to be a very insulting explanation (how people just didn't understand what they saw....sorry Pat, but I trained my first horse before you did and I know very well what a gum line is and why it should NEVER be used....unless you happen to be stealing a horse and want to force it into obedience immediately with pain, because that is what a gum line does). Watch a video of Pat working with Catwalk at a UK show. He uses a gum line and all the trainers I know and grew learning from that is NEVER acceptable.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

ACinATX said:


> Five riders.
> 
> To be fair, I think the point of the riding work was to demonstrate how what we had been doing on the ground could translate to work in the saddle, e.g. turn on the forehand, turn on backhand. But unless you're training a horse yourself, I mean actually training it, I don't think this is relevant to most people. Because when you buy a trained horse I'd expect it to already know how to do this.
> 
> ...


I’ll be candid, I’m not a fan of Parelli - all of my experiences have been that the Parelli way is THE ONLY WAY, and you don’t dare stray from it. I prefer to learn lots of different methods and have an arsenal of tools in my toolbox for different scenarios. Tinyliny explained it well earlier. 

You hit the nail on the head as to why I primarily dislike Parelli: “ there was a lot of lack of clear direction followed by a sharp rider response” - this seems to often be the case. Lack of direction, lack of clarity, then an over the top response. A particular video comes to mind of Linda Parelli working with a half- blind horse that was very spooked, she was trying to teach it to back up by wiggling the rope... the horse’s attention wasn’t on her at all, so she started thrashing the lead rope around making the metal buckle beat the poor horse over and over on his face. He had absolutely no clue what she was asking and no idea how to respond, the metal clip just kept hitting him over and over again, panicking him even more. Eventually he took a step back and she stopped, briefly, then wiggle, wiggle, WHAM again with the lead... the poor horse had to guess what she wanted. 
That seems to be their take on the back up game: wiggle, wiggle, WHAM if the horse doesn’t respond. I’m all for “ask, tell, demand” but only when the horse knows what I’m asking. It isn’t fair to demand an answer when you haven’t taught them what the answer is. 

The other reason I dislike Parelli is that everything is formulaic in multi-step processes that have to be practiced and perfected 10,000 times before you’re allowed to move on. I have honestly never seen a happy Parelli trained horse, they seem sour to their jobs. I like to get in and out with my training - I don’t drill the same thing over and over. 



Anyways, it sounds like you and your daughter learned some things that you can utilize, and also learned what you don’t want to emulate from this training method, which is also important.


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

@ACinATX lol The trucking in water schtick is very common here in Montana too, and I have no clue why. People in HOMES - NEW homes - use a cistern instead of being on city water or having a well. I can't tell you how many properties I've looked at that have a cistern and everyone says "Oh, it's not that bad" but, uhh, it's 2019. Almost 2020. We don't live in the Dark Ages anymore. Around here, with the intense cold we get and heavy snowfall that dumps several feet on you in half a day or less, and the ice storms, and the hail storms that take out entire trees, and the wind that uproots entire buildings and tosses them into roads … any of that can mean the difference between business as usual and going thirsty when you truck in water. Screw that. I categorically refuse to purchase property that does not contain access to water. It's kind of a big deal. 
@JustDressageIt All horse training I've ever seen, from any trainer in any discipline, all boils down to the same thing - putting the horse in a bind and letting them figure it out. Think about it … even when teaching a foal to lead, what do you do? Pull on the lead rope (put him in a bind) and when he steps forward, release (let him figure it out). Extra help may be given with a butt rope, if the foal is quite young and if that's the trainer's method, but it is the same. When asking a horse to move forward under saddle, you apply pressure as needed (voice, then calf, then heel, then added reinforcement of whip or over-under - putting the horse in a bind) until the horse moves forward (letting him figure it out). There isn't a single instance of training a horse that I can think of off the top of my head that isn't, at its very core, defined by this simple formula. 

This is precisely what Linda was apparently doing. She WAS using the ask-tell-demand thing, by wiggling first then increasing pressure. That the horse was blind doesn't matter insofar as this exercise is concerned, since the horse was being asked to move backwards by the feel of the lead wiggling not by watching Linda do something in particular. Sure the horse didn't understand what she wanted at first - but isn't this true of everything we teach our horses for the first time? No foal knows what you want when you pull that lead rope. No horse ridden for the first time understands what leg pressure is. For the first time, the horse ALWAYS has to guess at what you want. The important thing is that, when the horse guesses correctly, all pressure is released and he is praised. I haven't seen that video of Linda so I can't say - I don't think I've ever seen any of their videos tbh - so she may or may not have paused long enough or praised enough or whatever, but the principles used were the same as the ones used by a vast variety of folks across all disciplines. 

I don't know Parelli well but I know that Clinton Anderson uses a lot of repetition too. I use a modified version of his method to train, and all that drilling was the first thing I dropped when I started using it. One rein stops are a great example. Personally I think they should be trained into every horse, as a last resort safety feature, but I don't feel they need to be used exclusively for the horse's first few weeks of riding like CA does. I'll use them exclusively for the first few rides, until the horse begins stopping as soon as I sit down in the saddle (which I do before I ever reach for a rein), then I'll start to translate that over to the normal method of stopping. First it's sit, then 1RS, then sit and normal stop, and by the time they're done learning a normal stop I generally don't have to do much after that except sit down to get them to stop well. With some (usually lazy) horses, I only do a handful of 1RS before moving on. Thunder the Shire was that way … I bet he's had maybe 10 1RS in his whole life lol, since I broke him to drive before I broke him to ride, so from ride 1 I could just say 'whoa' and he'd stop immediately. 

I think that's where many of the people who follow these big name trainers get burnt out, and their horses too. So much drilling, and drilling, and drilling. I'd pin my ears too, if I had to put up with all that drilling. I'm a fan of teaching a horse to do a thing until progress is made, and then moving on. Most of the time I'm working on several things at once, so I might work on a thing till we make progress, then move to another thing, then later return to the original thing and make a bit more progress. I'd rather see something come about over the course of several days or weeks, and have a horse happy to do it, than have a horse do it perfectly at the end of the session and hate his life. 

Except maybe loping. I hardly ever see a horse that's had enough loping miles put on; that's the one thing I think people could use a bit of drilling on. 

-- Kai


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

ACinATX said:


> Five riders.
> 
> To be fair, I think the point of the riding work was to demonstrate how what we had been doing on the ground could translate to work in the saddle, e.g. turn on the forehand, turn on backhand. But unless you're training a horse yourself, I mean actually training it, I don't think this is relevant to most people. Because when you buy a trained horse I'd expect it to already know how to do this.
> 
> ...


I am not a Parelli fan but in all fairness, I tried to find a video on YouTube of Pat himself, not Linda or a disciple of the program explaining the one rein stop. 
I found an hour-long video of him helping a teen with horse from 5 years ago. Pat didn't explain the one rein stop as the kid was pretty green but it was obvious he was trying to get the kid to relax his horse into the stop by relaxing himself instead of hauling back on both reins and stiffening his body which of course puts brace into the horse. 
No mention of performing the stop 10,000 times or as an emergency stop/brake.

He also had him do the cruising around exercise. What I gathered it was teaching the kid to use as little pressure as necessary to walk, relax into the stop. Using as little life as necessary to ask for a desired gait rather than kicking, the horse speeds off into the lope and him hauling back on the reins, stiffening his body and the horse braces. They did quite a few transitions of using life and relaxing into the stop, in turn, getting the horse relaxed and paying attention to the rider and the rider using life or lack of rather relying on the reins.
I could see how this could be beneficial but I think as you did you found it difficult due to all the riders in the arena and having to worry about making sure you don't get kicked.

I can't believe I watched the whole video and I wasn't really put off by Pat as there hardly mention of " games" or "horsenalities". He was patient with the kid and there was an obvious improvement at the end of the session. It wasn't a whole lot different than what Warwick Shiller was explaining in a recent video I watched.

I wonder if there is a lot lost in translation between Pat and his however many star trainers?


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Here's a good clip to show what Pat Parelli is ok with doing. I only regret that the person couldn't stand to watch anymore and left before it ended since it was getting worse.

The video is not great quality and someone unfamiliar with a gum line won't likely realize what they are seeing. Read up on it. Short version, a line is placed under the horse's lip and across it's gum (hence the term "gum line") and used to exert a lot of pressure (look at how Pat has those lines configured....using the horses own weight to injure itself) to deliver a lot of pain to force a horse into compliance. It's an very old trick. Was a version was used by native Americans at times if they were absconding with anther tribes horses and mght need immediate compliance. As can be seen it does not always work. Especially with a fully matured stallion.

PLEASE don't anyone ever use this. It's never OK. There are 100 better ways of getting the horse to comply. Later that week, in a private session, Pat did get Catwalk to take the bridle with none of the fighting or stupidity. But he can't sell that, because it requires real knowledge. Pat is knowledgeable. He knows how train without being stupid, but the only thing that anyone can actually sell on videos or books to show how to train are just a lot of tricks that don't always work and don't teach you anything about actually training. Real knowledge on training only comes from a lot of time. Usually under the instruction and/or watchful eye of someone else who has spent years doing it and really knows how. That's how Pat learned so I'll never understand why he thinks he can sell his rubbish to make people (and those he "certifies") believe that they know how to train horses. They know some tricks. I they don't work, then what?

Linda is a complete loss. I know people who have forgotten more about training horses than she'll ever know.

A link to the Catwalk incident.

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2rq6b7


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

Having had almost a week now to decompress and think about this, I'm definitely not a Parelli person. All of those steps and levels and doing things 10,000 times isn't for me. I am definitely not a "Drink the Kool-aid" person either, so that aspect of it is still off-putting (we had "special Parelli halters" and the teacher had a Parelli brand saddle (!)).

BUT overall like I said we really enjoyed it, AND I realize that this approach can be useful to some people. One of the participants has been overwhelmed by her horse for a while, with one of her problems being I think that she can't really read this guy well and doesn't communicate effectively with him. While I personally prefer to read the horse, see where he's at, and go from there, I think it was super helpful for her to have those steps and levels, because otherwise she is just totally at sea with this guy. She is not at a point where she can really read him, so she can't just sort of make it up as she goes along, like I would. So the structure really benefited her and, I think, her horse too, by the end of it. Basically where she's at, she's either going to be doing these steps and levels with him, which TBH might not always be the best thing, or she's just going to be flailing around and confusing the horse and making herself feel bad. Given the choice, I'd say Parelli is the way to go for her.

Like I said, we enjoyed it, and if the instructor comes back we will do join again. Pony really had a good time, and I learned a couple of things. Just because I'm not sold on the whole Parelli as a lifestyle thing doesn't mean I can't find some good in it.

Bonus picture someone sent me afterwards. The main person in this picture is my daughter on Moonshine, and then I'm behind her on Pony. Teddy is the cute chestnut on the side, trying to figure out what his friends are doing.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

@Kaifyre - I understand where you are coming from, but disagree with you a bit. I absolutely agree with and use “ask, tell, demand” but only when the horse has been taught the foundation for the right answer. If you watched the video, I think you’d agree that there was no foundation for the horse to guess at the right answer... She goes as-te-DEMAND and after much “demanding” (read: being beaten around the face with a metal clip) he happened to step backwards .. she stopped moving the rope ever so briefly as a “reward” then went back to as-te-DEMAND.. He could have been taught that response in a much gentler manner, which is supposed to be the Parelli way. Most horses are taught that any pull on the lead rope = move forward towards the pull, so it can be very confusing for a horse that a wiggle (which does pull!) can now mean “back up.”

That’s where my frustration stems from: Parelli claims to be a gentle, harmonious method with solid foundations being established and built on, but then they do things like this. 

The formula for “ask, tell, demand” is the same at the core, but how you get to the end result is where training methods differ; I don’t try to put my horses “in a bind” for them to figure out on their own, I try to teach small lessons where the correct response is easy/obvious, and build on said lessons. To my mind, if I don’t teach a response I can’t expect to demand it. Using your example of asking a horse forward under saddle: I teach a horse to respond to pressure and voice cues on the ground before mounting up, they understand my verbal cues before I swing a leg over, and know that I can fairly “ask, tell, demand” because the horse knows the answer (cluck=forward, if you don’t go forward them I can tell and demand, they know this because they’ve been taught on the ground.) Other people may not do the groundwork, instead they swing a leg over and teach the horse that clucking means forward cause if you don’t listen to the cluck, you get calf then heel then whip; now at the end of the day, this will achieve the same thing, it’s just not my preferred method of doing things. Same with teaching a foal to lead: a foal’s natural response is to pull against pressure, so when pressure is put on a halter their response is to pull backwards against it, so I prefer to use a butt rope and momma to help facilitate the lesson to teach the foal to lead: light pressure on the halter + pressure on the butt rope = foal moves forward, release, repeat. One could instead put pressure on the lead (the foal’s instinct is to pull backwards against pressure, so this method usually means the foal pulls against the pressure on his head, panics when his head is restrained, then pulls more) then release and reward when the foal steps forward... the result will be that the foal will learn to lead using either method, but to my mind why wouldn’t you start soft and teach the foal to lead in a way that is the gentlest? I am not saying the second method in either example is *wrong,* it just isn’t my preferred way of doing things. 

Parelli claims to be a gentler method, he is very vocal about being against “the old cowboy way” which is why I found it extremely contradictory and frustrating to see videos such as Linda and the blind horse, and Pat with the gum line on Catwalk. 



Okay OP I think I’ve said enough here, I apologize for derailing your thread a bit, I just wanted to explain my stance on ask, tell, demand, and why the Parellis frustrate me. Haha. I won’t go on, the Linda and Catwalk things have been discussed to death.

I am very glad you learned things at the clinic and regardless of your journey you now know more than you did before!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Learning how to better handle your horse on the ground entails learning how to better handle a rope, and your OWN body, first. For some people, having a very distinct pattern of steps, and very specific in HOW to hold the rope, HOW to position your feet, etc., is necessary, since they don't have any of those skills at all, yet.


But, once you get that basic rope handling skill, if you stay focussed on that, step by step, you won't be able to focus on your horse, and his response to every little thing you do. Your timing will always be WAY late. By the time you are moving into step two, he is already moving forward to step 4.


The thing that I teach folks, when I help out a friend who may have some leading issues, for example, is to first look at your horse; observe where their thought is, and how it changes or doesn't change in connection with anything the handler does. It's developing careful observation of the horse that is the NUMBER ONE skill a person can have with horses.


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

@JustDressageIt lol I knew I should have oversimplified the riding example … as soon as I posted it I figured you'd say that. I too climb aboard only after I've done groundwork to ease the transition. Learning to move forward under saddle is a derivative of moving forward on the lunge line, which itself is a derivative of leading with the lead rope. They all build on each other, starting with that first attempt at leading as a (hopefully) young horse - small binds that build on one another. And even with the butt rope, you're still putting the foal in a bind. Pressure is being applied somewhere and they at first don't know what to do to make it go away. This puts them in a bind, even if it is small. Even simply leading the mare away, and leaving the foal alone with nothing on his face, puts him in a bind - momma is leaving and I need to do something to make it stop i.e. follow. I'll have to watch that video; this is the third or fourth time I've seen it brought up in different conversations and I keep meaning to watch it … 
@tinyliny Sometimes I think for people using those step programs just starting out with the whole groundwork schtick it would be easier to just attach the lead rope to the fence and practice that way. Then they can learn their steps and learn how to handle the rope and handle their sticks or whips if they use them without getting ropes tangled around their feet and having to worry about what their horses are doing. They can work with everything until they feel comfortable, and once they're comfortable they can bring the horse into it, and as you say, focus on the horse. 

-- Kai


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

> Sometimes I think for people using those step programs just starting out with the whole groundwork schtick it would be easier to just attach the lead rope to the fence and practice that way.


This made me chuckle, as it’s pretty much how I learned to lunge. I was taught by a classically trained German lady, and you weren’t allowed to have a horse on the end of the line until you could handle all that rope in your hands AND show you could use the lunge whip with precision by hitting small pieces of colorful tape she put at varying heights on the arena wall. If you couldn’t do all that clearly on your own, your horse wasn’t going to suffer for it!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Good points


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

There's a clear difference between 'putting a horse in a bind' where he has dozens of different responses he could offer and he has to guess which one you want, or proper training where the result you want is readily apparent; the only option or one of two, so the horse easily figures out what you're asking. 



If you stand the horse in the middle of the arena and start whapping him under the chin by flailing the lead rope, he's going to eventually step back, but first he's going to raise his head, tense up, maybe rear. Is that how you want the horse to invert himself when you ask him to back? Probably not. But instead, if you tap his chest with a crop while jiggling his lead rope and rewarding when he tucks his nose or shifts his weight back even slightly, and keep him next to the wall so he knows he's not allowed to step away sideways, he'll be backing up softly and collected in a very short time without the anxiousness and fear, so that later when you want him to back up from farther away, you can jiggle that lead rope and he'll shift his weight and step back nicely. The end result is the same, but the process to get there was not.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

SilverMaple said:


> There's a clear difference between 'putting a horse in a bind' where he has dozens of different responses he could offer and he has to guess which one you want, or proper training where the result you want is readily apparent; the only option or one of two, so the horse easily figures out what you're asking.
> 
> 
> 
> If you stand the horse in the middle of the arena and start whapping him under the chin by flailing the lead rope, he's going to eventually step back, but first he's going to raise his head, tense up, maybe rear. Is that how you want the horse to invert himself when you ask him to back? Probably not. But instead, if you tap his chest with a crop while jiggling his lead rope and rewarding when he tucks his nose or shifts his weight back even slightly, and keep him next to the wall so he knows he's not allowed to step away sideways, he'll be backing up softly and collected in a very short time without the anxiousness and fear, so that later when you want him to back up from farther away, you can jiggle that lead rope and he'll shift his weight and step back nicely. The end result is the same, but the process to get there was not.


Exactly. 

Some people DO put their horses “in a bind” where the answer isn’t clear/obvious, and expect the horse to figure it out. The horse will usually get there, but probably after offering some incorrect answers first... I want to make the right thing obvious and easy, and build on that. 


Here’s the clip (*Mod note: the video is in the reply #47*) I was referencing.... also, fast forward to 1:45 to start watching the video. Watching it again now still enrages me.. I still have no idea what the heck she wanted from this horse. The horse isn’t being rude, the line is slack, he isn’t going backwards or bowling her over, he tries forward because she’s pulling on the rope, wrong answer. Tries lunging around her, wrong answer. Tries other responses, wrong answers. She relaxes and rewards at very odd times, I truly have no idea what her goal was here. If she was trying to get it to back up... well, he tried that, and wasn’t rewarded - in fact, she started beating him around the face with the clip again when he offered a back up. I truly don’t get it.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

The Parelli's also tried to get rid of the video of Pat falling off his colt in the Road to the Horse competition a few years back. There still is a clip on the Road to the Horse YouTube channel though.

In the clip with Linda, you can tell she flat out got mad at the horse which is unfortunate.

The other ordeal with Catwalk, I don't remember the circumstances in which Pat used the method he did? The video posted on this thread is too grainy to really tell what is going on. I realize it has been thrashed many times in this forum alone but don't remember the situation.

Again I am not a fan of the Parelli's at all but I'm glad @ACinATX had fun. If it provides a fun experience for you, daughter and the horses do it...just don't drink the Kool-Aid!!
LOL


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Ugh. That's hard to watch. I can't figure out what she's actually asking him to do, either. It looks like she's just yanking on him as hard as she can in frustration rather than trying to teach him anything. What a kind horse. He keeps trying, but there's no release for any of his responses. I have had a couple of horses that would have taken her head off.


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## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

JustDressageIt said:


> Exactly.
> 
> Some people DO put their horses “in a bind” where the answer isn’t clear/obvious, and expect the horse to figure it out. The horse will usually get there, but probably after offering some incorrect answers first... I want to make the right thing obvious and easy, and build on that.
> 
> ...


I have used 5 of the 7 games he uses as a basic set of training exercises with the horses for years, though I have actually altered them and taken out the things those things that I didn't like that Pat Pareli does in those exercises. Those 5 exercises are the one thing of his that I have done for years. Outside of that I'm not actually familiar with what he does so I couldn't comment on anything else or what Linda does-though that video is absolutely sickening. 

I think that's the unfortunate thing with his program or any other program for that matter, is that you will get people who are not knowledgeable(not talking about the OP but in general) and don't know any better and will follow their lead and take on a program or exercises that are questionable IMO. 

Buck Brannaman is who I base the other 90% of my training on with our horses from starting them all the way to now when they are well broke and we expose them to new things. I always like to educate myself so I feel my training methods are always evolving to an extant and I feel that I am always refining what I do or perhaps adapting what I do or pick and choose certain techniques maybe from other respected trainers if ones come along but for the last many years Buck has been my go to and the person that I have used for training.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

COWCHICK77 said:


> The Parelli's also tried to get rid of the video of Pat falling off his colt in the Road to the Horse competition a few years back. There still is a clip on the Road to the Horse YouTube channel though.
> 
> In the clip with Linda, you can tell she flat out got mad at the horse which is unfortunate.
> 
> ...



Re: Catwalk... if I remember correctly, he came to the clinic as he was extremely head shy and hard to bridle... Parelli tried to get near his head using basic methods then went to a gum line when he was unsuccessful. Then Catwalk thrashed around the end of that line. I don’t think any positive movement was made towards the headshyness or bridling issue, but I am not positive. 


@my2geldings: Absolutely, the 7 Games have merit and are very useful! The Parelli Program could be amazing.... I just personally can’t get behind and endorse the name due to things like on the videos posted here, AND that Parelli “believers” are, IMO, typically like “Parelli is the ONE TRUE method, you can’t use anything else!” mentality. But absolutely the games have merit, and versions of them are very widely used in other programs, which speaks to that. I use some versions myself, too


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

SilverMaple said:


> There's a clear difference between 'putting a horse in a bind' where he has dozens of different responses he could offer and he has to guess which one you want, or proper training where the result you want is readily apparent; the only option or one of two, so the horse easily figures out what you're asking.


Ergh I must not be making myself clear … my only point was that ALL training is putting the horse in a bind TO SOME DEGREE. In the example I used above, even leading the mare away from a loose foal is putting the foal in a bind - you're not even touching him and you're putting him in a bind (Mother is leaving ARGH what do I do?!?! Panicpanicpanic!) and asking him to find the answer (Oh good, if I follow mom everything is fine). In your example, yes, you're leading him to the answer asking him to back up that way, but you're still putting your horse in a bind and asking him to find the answer. You've narrowed his options down, yes, but he's still in a bind and you're still asking him for an answer. ALL training, no matter how you do it, no matter how gentle the option is or how many options you've already eliminated to show him the way, is putting your horse in a bind and asking him to find the answer. 

That's what training is. If we never put our horses in situations where they are pressured to find an answer (NO MATTER HOW SLIGHT THE PRESSURE IS; holding a treat down to the ground to get a horse to lower his head is pressuring him to find the answer of how to get the treat even if you never touch the horse) then we aren't training them. I think you guys see the word 'bind' and automatically think it's some horrible thing but that is not the way I'm using the word. Even using the treat example above is putting your horse in a bind and asking him to figure out the answer. lol Maybe it would help if I used a different word … Perhaps I should have said "You're presenting a problem to your horse and asking him to find the answer." It's the same thing though. 

And that video … I'm completely confused, so I shudder to think what the horse was thinking. Like @JustDressageIt said, she's pausing to reward (if you can call it that, with the .0027 seconds of rest the horse gets) all at the wrong places. First it looks like she's trying to back the horse up? Out of her space maybe? Then yield out of her space maybe? I'm lost. Lots of flailing, and …. well, flailing. Ergh. I feel sorry for the poor beastie. 

-- Kai


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

That video is awful.

There is a time when it's perfectly effective to 'throw' a big wave of energy down the line so that it wakes the hrose up. But, yeah, NO HARDWARE, first of all.
And, if you do this, you do it only as much as it takes for the horse to give you some attention, so that you can then softly ask him to do something.


For example, the horse you are leading is starting to run past you he is so distracted by something out 'there'. I might put a huge, fast wiggle on the line , if he disregarded the soft lift of the line that said, 'hey, move back to where you should be". He will throw his head up, but he'll look down the line at me, and when he does, I'll ask him to politely step back where he shoudl be.


The big wiggle on the line is not the cue, it is only used if the horse is unable to break his attention away from outside things and you need his attention NOW!


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## ClearDonkey (Nov 27, 2016)

JustDressageIt said:


> I’ll be candid, I’m not a fan of Parelli - all of my experiences have been that the Parelli way is THE ONLY WAY, and you don’t dare stray from it. I prefer to learn lots of different methods and have an arsenal of tools in my toolbox for different scenarios. Tinyliny explained it well earlier.
> 
> You hit the nail on the head as to why I primarily dislike Parelli: “ there was a lot of lack of clear direction followed by a sharp rider response” - this seems to often be the case. Lack of direction, lack of clarity, then an over the top response....That seems to be their take on the back up game: wiggle, wiggle, WHAM if the horse doesn’t respond. I’m all for “ask, tell, demand” but only when the horse knows what I’m asking. It isn’t fair to demand an answer when you haven’t taught them what the answer is.


I have Parelli in my toolbox of items to use on horses, as it was the way I was introduced into horses, and the methods are really good for certain types of horses.

I find it funny that you specifically mentioned "ask, tell, demand" - that is the Clinton Anderson method summarized in three words - but I see it as "Ask the horse that doesn't know the answer, scream at the horse that doesn't know the answer, forcefully demand the horse that doesn't know the answer." Again, I have Clinton Anderson in my toolbox of items, but not to the level that he escalates things unless the situation calls for it.

The back-up/yo-yo game was taught to me as a slow escalation of the cue you want to have, same with all of the Seven Games. I was taught "air, hair, skin, muscle" - begin by cueing the air around them, then escalate to the hair of the horse, the skin of the horse, and then the muscle. With the porcupine game, which teaches them to yield certain parts of their body, you begin by waving your hand/stick towards the horse, but without touching the horse. If they don't move their body to just touching the air, you begin touching them lightly, then a little bit harder - and then instantly release when they give you the smallest bit of correctness.

For the back-up/yo-yo game, I was taught to begin with my finger, wrist, elbow, and then shoulder. Begin by wiggling my finger, and escalate to wiggling my wrist, then elbow, then entire arm. Again, with instant release when the horse gives any backwards motion.

The Parelli Method, when done correctly, can be incredibly beneficial to certain types of horses, especially, as I've found, reactive horses (introverted or extroverted). I love referencing the Parelli horsenalities, as they alter their exercises to fit different personalities of horses. My horses Flicka, Flame, and now Minnie, were/are very introverted and would explode if pushed too much. I would love to see any Clinton Anderson follower work with any of them, because they would get no where, and would ruin any progress I've made with them.


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## TaMMa89 (Apr 12, 2008)

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## mslady254 (May 21, 2013)

Just now getting caught up on this thread......I wouldn't have enjoyed the riding portion of the clinic either and I have enjoyed every PNH clinic I've done....geeze, sounds like the instructor was treating all riders as if they were green and on untrained horses,,,too much drilling on the very basics. 10000 times of anything is ridiculous. A few times, to get the gist of it would suffice, then practice at home from time to time. The one rein stop is definitely NOT the only way taught to get a halt, and stopping with just your seat is the goal for advancement. I've had it taught, practice just enough for your horse to be familiar with it so that IF you need it in an emergency, the horse recognizes what is being asked and responds correctly---safety for horse and rider is the goal. 
As to the 9 step backup.....it is taught as a very beginning, very basic,,,broken down into ''baby steps" and is meant to be advanced to a seat/weight cued maneuver,,as in bridle less riding. 
I would have been very uncomfortable and felt unsafe with horses all wandering around without guidance from their riders...yikes...that is an exercise for one horse and rider in a safe ,enclosed area, and it can serve a purpose under those specific circumstances. 
I will say that its been my experience that all the Parelli equipment is excellent quality and although expensive, well worth it for the quality. No instructor I've ever encountered ever discouraged any student from using whatever equipment they had, though. The Parelli equipment (saddles, ropes, etc) is mentioned but not pushed, in my experiences. Wish I had more of it! LOL...the first ever clinic I did , I had a very cheap, beat up-handed down, saddle and no one said a word or looked down on it/me,,,other students or instructors. I got a used Parelli saddle several years ago and I love, love it. 
Although I am a dedicated PNH student , I certainly don't think it is the ONLY way, and neither does Pat..lol...He suggests that his students stick with one method (his or another) until they have a good foundation, then study with others and take or leave what fits and makes sense, or not....he feels, and it makes sense, that if you don't stick with someone/some method at first, you risk switching from method to method and not getting a good foundation. I personally know of someone who experienced this....she regretted it later. Possibly not always true, but it makes sense to me. I have lessoned with a local Natural Horsemanship ,but NOT PNH person several times and enjoy and learn from his lessons. I take Western Dressage Lessons from a nonParelli Instructor and she is awesome. 
Anyhow, glad you gave it a try, too bad that the riding part wasn't so good. I think you *might* enjoy a more advanced lesson or with a different instructor. 

Cheers,
Fay


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

A video posted by JustDressageIt (reply #37) was removed from the thread because it came from a source that we don't allow on this forum
Since there are references too it I've found the same video from a source that is allowed here.

I think the message to take from this and the Catwalk video, if anyone has looked at that, is that its always wise to see both sides of any trainer. 

*Mod note* - Please remember that while its OK to bash the method we don't allow members to bash the person, other than constructive criticism which is a different thing.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

On the topic of the two videos, what I'm seeing here is escalation while trying to to do the same thing over and over with the same negative results (definition of insanity?). Having dealt with an incredibly head shy and previously abused horse (Trigger), and yes, even one that was missing an eye/half blind (JH who used to ride with us had a lovely dappled grey with long black stockings who had lost an eye as a foal - Zombie is his name), and with horses who are genuinely ignorant, young, but willing or 3 years old and unhandled (Oops, Red), I'm seeing pressure pressure pressure with no release. Every horse I've seen that sort of thing done to will eventually 'blow in two' in one way or another as they grow more and more confused, afraid, or by gawd just determined to win.


In the case of the rope wiggling... Good grief. I don't even know what they're asking of the horse (Back up!? That's what they're asking for? Really?) and I don't think the horse understands at. all. what they're trying to get him to do. Did they not try other ways to teach this horse to back, or am I missing something?



With the stallion, of course the video is horrible quality but the overall takeaway is that whatever they're trying to do is. not. working. and it's having a nasty backlash effect. I'm shocked someone didn't get seriously injured right there in front of everyone. IMO, they needed to try something different rather than escalate the situation. Granted, I don't know how much time and effort was put into trying to get this horse in a bridle before this video, but there's always a better way, IMO. Trigger would have found us to the end, someone would get hurt, if they'd tried this and he'd be emotionally gone, just functioning in survival mode alone, which is NOT a thinking horse. I just... IDK. I realize I don't know the whole story about either video, but the method used doesn't seem to be in anyway helpful with the problems either of the horses have in those videos.


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