# Tell me HOW this bit works?



## Dez4455 (Mar 14, 2019)

So my mare Reba has been trained in a Jr. Cowhorse bit for normal/day to day riding and a Josey Mitchell shank chain bit for barrel racing. She is extremely soft in the mouth, fancy broke, moves off pressure nicely, etc etc. I have extremely soft hands and I always have, I am always worried about hurting the horse by pulling on the reins too hard. I ride with my seat and legs with very slight rein pressure with this horse and she response perfectly. 

ADDED INFORMATION:
Reba does NOT run through any bit, she doesn't brace against any bit, she is NOT hot at the gate or anywhere near/inside of any arena, she turns barrels by the rider's movement (sitting back in the seat, rein drop, and feet forward) and she does NOT respond on barrels if the rider is yanking her around the barrel. Also, if this bit hurt my tank of a mare in any way, she would make me eat the dirt she stands on in .2 seconds!!

So I don't know much about bits as the gelding I've owned for 9 years has always used a hackamore. I DEFINITELY have extremely soft hands and use my seat and legs more than pulling on the reins. I've always been scared to hurt the horse's mouth by pulling too hard.

I bought Reba, my barrel mare, who is extremely soft in the face which is really good for me since I'm super light/soft handed. Can anybody tell me (with intelligence, not just "oh that's harsh, you're a bad rider" crap) how this bit works? She was trained in this bit and is really the only thing she needs. She doesn't run through bits, she doesn't show any pain, and she responds very well to it. Trust me when I say this... if this bit hurt this tank of a mare, she would make me eat dirt in .2 seconds!!

https://www.joseywesternstore.com/Josey-Mitchell-Short-Shank-Chain-Gag-Bit-p/b-jm101.htm


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Well. It's a gag bit with a chain for a mouth piece. That's how it works, like a gag bit, but with a chain that bites when engaged. Engage it hard enough, you'll chew her tongue up with that. 

More importantly, if you're confident it's fine for her and you both, why pose the question here? Am I missing something? Just want to make sure I'm responding to what you need to know.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

People have told me that chain mouthpieces are well-liked by horses because it forms to fit their mouth. But I have never tried one myself. I only mention it because people tell me it's not as harsh as you would think by looking at it.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Some horses seem to like them because they form to the tongue-- so a horse with a fat tongue and low palate will prefer something like this over a port or single-joint bit. A lot of rope horses have a chain bit because it gives them something to run against and move around in their mouths. If your mare goes well in it, use it, but experiment with some other options if she doesn't need it. FWIW, a chain bit is a lot milder than the twisted wire bits out there. One of those types of bits that look awful but horses seem to find comfortable. Bear in mind that a chain bit is a performance bit. For training or longer rides, use something milder or you risk storing her mouth from friction.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I think a gag bit works such that when pressure is applied to the reins, the mouthpiece is 'raised' in the mouth. It actually moves upward in the mouth, thus the 'gag' word. 

I am saying this only from what I've read. I've never used one, so a more knowledgeable person may have better info.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

tinyliny said:


> I think a gag bit works such that when pressure is applied to the reins, the mouthpiece is 'raised' in the mouth. It actually moves upward in the mouth, thus the 'gag' word.
> 
> I am saying this only from what I've read. I've never used one, so a more knowledgeable person may have better info.


Ohhhh... you may be right. Imma have to experiment on one I have out in the trailer in my pile o'crap I don't use... I'll stick my son's arm in it and engage it. See what happens.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

What happens if the horse trips and you happen to catch her in the mouth? What happens if you fall off unexpectedly and get her in the mouth? 

If she is so soft, well trained, and easy to control, why would you use a bit like that? 

I always try to go with the most comfortable bit possible. A simple snaffle, french link snaffle, or a mullen mouth. I never saw the necessity of a harsh bit. To me, a harsh bit means you are missing something in training. 

Accidents happen even with the best trained horse. Yes she may ride well in that bit, but that doesn't mean she won't ride just as well in a different bit. 

It could be the reason she is so soft in the face is because someone has abused her mouth with that bit. She could have learned to stay soft to avoid painful contact with the bit.

I do not know you, how you ride, or the history on your horse. I personally would not use a bit like that. 

As to how it works:
A Bit of Advice: Leverage or curb bits | HORSE NATION

That bit looks more like a curb bit with a chain mouthpiece - it doesn't look like a gag bit as i happen to think of them. This is what i think of as a gag bit.
A Bit of Advice: Gag bits | HORSE NATION

I used to ride a thoroughbred in something like a waterford snaffle except the links were smooth round, circular pieces.That was many years ago - i can't recall the name of the bit. The bit will conform to the shape of the mouth- but because the links were round, it avoids digging into the tongue when contact is applied. No leverage or curb action.


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## Filou (Jan 16, 2014)

The chain that goes in the mouth draped over and conforms to the shape of the tongue more or less. 
The bit doughnuts are keeping the cheeks of the horse from being pinched on the sides of the bit. 
The way the chain is attached allows it to move up and down in the horses mouth. 
The way the reins attach to the shank cause the bit to rotate. 
When you pull, it rotates, and the chain slides up in the mouth. 
Pressure is also put on the poll via the cheek piece and crown piece leather. 
Once the chain is at the top and can't slide up anymore additional pressure is sent to the cheek piece/crown piece of the bridle putting increased pressure on the poll. 
The chain that goes under the chin stabilizes bits in the mouth and is also used to go slower, it puts pressure on the underside of the horses jaw. 

I would call it a gag bit, or elevator bit. There's tons of styles like that one out there depending on your discipline. I think they are some of the softest bits if you have very soft hands, in part because some of the pressure is taken away from the mouth and applied to the poll when the bit rotates. The horse gets lots of cues before you are pulling too hard to make it hurt at all. I think the chain is ok but would be worried it might pinch the tongue so I might look for something that conforms similarly but that is a little more pinch proof.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

Comment was made of "what if you fall, what if you put pressure...."
Their is no difference in a reaction of getting in the horses face with this or any bit if you should suddenly snap and lunge force on the bit regardless of the horse, regardless of the bit construction...
You just snapped the mouth with a unjust hand response...

I've seen a lot worse bits than this....
It is soft rounded links, large in size that can conform and fit the oral cavity of the horse.
A horse who is ridden by majority of leg and seat pressure is not face hauled anyway.
A barrel horse who is trained and ridden correctly needs minimal hands and majority of seat for the cues on body control needed to run a pattern correctly.
I actually find this bit a lot more friendly than some of the horrors used by racers who use the face, head and neck for balance of their human body doing a pattern.
Body control on the horse is also body control on the human...together they work in harmony in peacefulness and subtle cues.
I would rather see a horse ride quiet in this doing a actual run {not schooling} than see it being hauled on because if not have the respect, lightness achieved and indeed mouth comfort from a shape conforming bit running in something "soft & kind".
Used correctly, most "horrors" truly are not.
Used incorrectly, most soft & kind become horrors in no time.
I think the most important part of the explanation is, "the horse likes it, respects it and performs well in it with no adverse displays of discomfort, pain or whatever."
:runninghorse2:...
_jmo..._


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## Dez4455 (Mar 14, 2019)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> Well. It's a gag bit with a chain for a mouth piece. That's how it works, like a gag bit, but with a chain that bites when engaged. Engage it hard enough, you'll chew her tongue up with that.
> 
> More importantly, if you're confident it's fine for her and you both, why pose the question here? Am I missing something? Just want to make sure I'm responding to what you need to know.


I don't know how any of the gag bits work mechanically... Does it put pressure on her poll and make her stop? Does it put pressure on her bars? I'm just confused!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Wiki has a decent article on gag bits:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gag_bit










As you pull, the poll strap and bit come closer together, raising the bit in the mouth and applying pressure to the poll.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

This bit looks scary but it isn't really. 

I repeat what others said, the chain mouthpiece isn't bad. I use a short shanked (no gag) chain bit on my bay horse when we team rope or steer stop. He will hide behind the bit if a mouthpiece is too much for him to give you an idea of what his mouth is like. He likes it, he leave the box flatter. Also it muddles my hand so if I move my hand too much or fast during a run I don't catch him in the mouth so bad and scare him. If someone is worried about the link you can wrap the mouthpiece in Seal Tex and still get the advantages of the chain mouthpiece.


As far as the gag portion, curb adjustment dictates when the poll and jaw pressure is applied along with when the corners of the lips. (Hopefully OP is using bit guards) Looser curb chain will be more forgiving letting the mouthpiece slide up the shank before the curb engages the poll and lower jaw.


Something I feel needs to be considered with gags is the severity of the angle on the slide portion. The bit in question has very little curve making the poll pressure gradual. On some where the curve takes a big bend it brings it on quickly through the bend. 



I don't have a need for a gag bit 99% of the time but I do have a single jointed banana gag that is pretty handy. I can take the curb strap off and ride a green horse in it and they get along good with it. A couple years a go I had a big sorrel horse who had been pulled on the snaffle too much. I put the banana on him with no curb, he relaxed and eventually I was able to go back to the snaffle. It just worked on the corners of his mouth while leaving the rest of the mouth alone. 

I can stop the gag motion buy taping it, put the curb on and use it as an elevator which is a still a 1:1 ratio.
Or I can use it as gag and adjust the curb strap accordingly.


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## Dez4455 (Mar 14, 2019)

I know for a fact that this mare wasn't bit abused. I have known her my whole life and her past owner breaks and trains performance horses to be soft in the mouth and rely on the rider's seat and legs for a good barrel turn, stopping, backing, and going forwards. I am her 2nd owner and I will be the last for this sweet girl as she is absolutely amazing. 

She has always used chain pieces on her bit as she has a very low palate and if you ride her in a snaffle, she throws her head up with her mouth wide open, evades the pressure and runs through the bit. She loves this bit and has only used chain bits since she was 3. 

You barely have to even touch the reins (besides just picking up the rein) and she will move! Her curb chain is very loose, I can fit my hand through it with ease. Also, she does have bit guards!

Thank you guys for the information! I appreciate you guys teaching me about this bit!


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Chain bits are one of those things that English riders gasp in horror at, but that are common in western riding and horses seem to really like them. I'd rather have a horse going around softly in a chain mouth gag than lugging and tossing his head in a snaffle. No offense to English riders, but it gets a little old to constantly be told that our western bits are cruel by riders who need crank and flash nosebands pulled tight to keep their horses from gapping their mouths, and who have no idea how curb bits actually work to signal the horse before you take the slack out of the reins.


Sorry, I'm prickly on this today. I just took down a photo I posted on social media of my old horse wearing a half-breed spade bit because the English riders and the 'bitless warriors' were down my throat that he was wearing such a 'cruel bit' and 'I shouldn't even have a horse if that's the bit he needs.' He liked that bit and went well in it. He HATED snaffles of any kind, but you can't tell these people anything of the sort....


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

This English rider who also greatly enjoys western riding and activities....
Sometimes you just need to tell others to bug off.

The bit in discussion here is nothing compared to some I've bridled English horses with....curl your straight hair if you knew what was in the mouth...
"Soft" looking rings can hide some nasty, nasty mouthpieces.

So, not to stir the issue..._sorry for the grief you were subjected to..._
I'm still learning this western stuff....
I know what a spade bit is...and the fine training a horse wearing a spade bit has gone through and how fine a equestrian the rider holding the reins of that horse is too.
*So what is a half-breed spade bit?*
Not one I own, nor how to ride with it and is it a curb, snaffle or some combination.:shrug:
:runninghorse2:...


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

A half breed spade is a barqueno(sp?) We don't have one anymore but a bit halfway between the half breed and the spade. (Google pic below)
A half breed is a straight cannon bar with a staple (port) with a cricket. Pic below of some variations.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

SilverMaple said:


> Chain bits are one of those things that English riders gasp in horror at, but that are common in western riding and horses seem to really like them. I'd rather have a horse going around softly in a chain mouth gag than lugging and tossing his head in a snaffle. No offense to English riders, but it gets a little old to constantly be told that our western bits are cruel by riders who need crank and flash nosebands pulled tight to keep their horses from gapping their mouths, and who have no idea how curb bits actually work to signal the horse before you take the slack out of the reins.



Amen! 

It seems like monsterous, exotic nosebands have really been the rage the past few years with english bridles. They look huge and ugly and gosh only knows what they are all supposed to do. I just keep thinking, if they didn't ride with so much contact they wouldn't need a nose band. Give the poor horse some slack in his reins instead of strapping his mouth shut. :icon_rolleyes:


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

Remember this from the old-fashioned English rider....
I ride with a caveson, plain caveson...no different than a halter noseband.
And you can insert fingers easily between jawbone and strap...they can breathe, easily!

I too find it not nice half of what is used on faces today....let alone what is worn in the mouth.
There should be no reason to "strap the mouth shut" to me if the horse is trained to carry quietly the face, head and mouth closed....
To many contraptions used as of late in many riding disciplines = shortcuts....
Seems the shortcuts are showing their holes. :icon_rolleyes:
Its also a way to part human from their wallet and $$..........
A new fad, gotta have it scenario! :rofl:

:runninghorse2:...


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Fads can infect all styles of riding. I've seen western 'trainers' in videos use brute force and intimidation to make a horse look "soft" or to achieve a "frame" with slack reins. I wish we could focus on backs and talk about supple backs instead of frames. Particularly for beginning riders, or very part-time recreational riders like myself. How the horse's back feels is so much more important than where his head is. If only we could focus on getting the horse "eager" instead of obedient!

I admit, though, to tensing up when someone tells me THEY would never touch a harsh "leverage" bit. I sometimes wish I could change the terminology so that they would be called "signal" bits instead of curb bits. Then we could talk about a horse being "on the signal" for a horse who, on slack reins, is trained to listen to tiny movements of the bit, movements that take place before pressure hits the mouth. I view a well used curb as a pressure-less bit, not a leverage bit. If leverage kicks in, my horse and I have more work to do. And in honestly, Bandit and I do! But there are times when we both are looking ahead, and I can feel him considering options, and I think about them and suggest one with a small movement of my wrist or balance, and he takes it. Those are the moments that satisfy! That is what motivates me to mount up again! For a brief moment, we are one.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

COWCHICK77 said:


> A half breed spade is a barqueno(sp?) We don't have one anymore but a bit halfway between the half breed and the spade. (Google pic below)
> A half breed is a straight cannon bar with a staple (port) with a cricket. Pic below of some variations.



Mine resembles the bit second from the right in the right-side photo. This horse was a little heavy on the forehand in the way he was built (although he carried himself beautifully) to go straight up in the bridle (spade) but he went really well in a half-breed and liked it. I don't have the photo on this computer (I'm at work) but I'll post it later. It's one of my favorites of my 'old man.' I miss him.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

bsms said:


> Fads can infect all styles of riding. I've seen western 'trainers' in videos use brute force and intimidation to make a horse look "soft" or to achieve a "frame" with slack reins. I wish we could focus on backs and talk about supple backs instead of frames. Particularly for beginning riders, or very part-time recreational riders like myself. How the horse's back feels is so much more important than where his head is. If only we could focus on getting the horse "eager" instead of obedient!
> 
> I admit, though, to tensing up when someone tells me THEY would never touch a harsh "leverage" bit. I sometimes wish I could change the terminology so that they would be called "signal" bits instead of curb bits. Then we could talk about a horse being "on the signal" for a horse who, on slack reins, is trained to listen to tiny movements of the bit, movements that take place before pressure hits the mouth. I view a well used curb as a pressure-less bit, not a leverage bit. If leverage kicks in, my horse and I have more work to do. And in honestly, Bandit and I do! But there are times when we both are looking ahead, and I can feel him considering options, and I think about them and suggest one with a small movement of my wrist or balance, and he takes it. Those are the moments that satisfy! That is what motivates me to mount up again! For a brief moment, we are one.


One of my best 'horse friends' is a gal who grew up in Pony Club and riding eventers and jumpers on the East Coast. When she moved here, she was in for a whole rude awakening on the lack of anything 'horsie'-- especially the lack of anything English-style riding other than Saddleseat or stock horse Hunters, which bear zero resemblance to A-show Hunters (which bear zero resemblance to a horse one actually would take hunting, but I digress...) She was aghast at the curb bits western horses here wear. Then her daughter decided she wanted to do 4H, and they bought her a Quarter Horse and started going to local shows and whatnot. I go over once every week or two in the summer and we work on tuning her lazy mare to respond with minimal cues. It took several months of struggle before my friend gave in and let me ride the mare in a curb to see what she knew, and the difference was amazing. The mare went from stiff-jawed and rooting her head and heavy on the forehand to lovely self-carriage, even with her young rider. She relaxed, dropped her head, pulled her nose back in, and went nice and soft and pretty. No resistance, no tenseness, and no anxiousness. She was back in a bit she understood better with a signal so she didn't feel she had to protect herself from a young rider who, while riding beautifully with generally soft hands, can sometimes make a mistake and ask for something harder than she should-- and the snaffle gave her no warning for that. 

There was a hullaballoo a few months back for an event rider who does very well, but whose mare comes in from the cross-country regularly with a bloody mouth, and when you see the chain nosebands and drawreins and martingales and harsh mouthpiece bits she rides that mare in, on heavy contact, it makes one cringe. On dressage day, the noseband is so tight it's a wonder the mare can breathe. Ugh.

There are bad riders and riders who rely on overbitting rather than actual training in every discipline, but just because someone uses a leverage bit does not mean the horse is being overbitted, and not all snaffles are 'more comfortable' for the horse-- some of those mouthpieces are downright frightening. I think a lot of the abuses are due to lack of skill or patience in bringing a young, talented horse along-- especially if you don't own the horse and the owners expect results. Even moreso are the futurities and derbies. It's the very rare horseman who can get a finished-horse performance out of a 2 y.o. without resorting to some heavy-handed riding at some point.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

This has been an educational thread. Glad you made it, Dez. I discovered I do actually have a headstall and bit like this in my pile o' stuff to resell, along with several other gag bits with broken mouthpieces (Think they all came in the same buyout, tbh).


I've been told this entire time a chain bit is horror of horrors, only certain horses can tolerate, they never give any relief on pressure, blahblahblah, even by salty old cowboys.


In this case... Seems like everything else 'horse'... it all just depends.


Carry on folks, I will continue educating myself.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

horselovinguy said:


> Remember this from the old-fashioned English rider....
> I ride with a caveson, plain caveson...no different than a halter noseband.
> And you can insert fingers easily between jawbone and strap...they can breathe, easily!
> ...



I like a good, old fashioned caveson. They look nice! 

This, to me, is a nicely fitting, nice looking english bridle that doesn't overwhelm the horse's head:

https://ii.bigdweb.com/fcgi-bin/iip...ource/1129t_c1105_alt1.tif&wid=1000=&cvt=jpeg


After a quick Google search, I think it's the dressage nosebands I find ugly. Take a look at the 3rd photo on this one, there is just so much going on there, and it appears quite tight as well: 

Difference dressage noseband bridle - Dy'on

Here are some more:

dressage noseband

https://theatlar.com/collections/br...nglish-elegance-dressage-bridle-black-padding

I don't understand why they are so big and overwhelm the horse's face. I really dislike the look of the giant, wide noseband. Even the anatomical ones are just so "much."


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

trailhorserider said:


> I like a good, old fashioned caveson. They look nice!
> 
> I don't understand why they are so big and overwhelm the horse's face. I really dislike the look of the giant, wide noseband. Even the anatomical ones are just so "much."


Me too....from a plain, flat leather strap that is the true hunting appointment with sewn in bit and reins, to a fancy stitched nose and brow, to a square-raised, to half-round, braided...but they all had a common part...conventional noseband that was correctly adjusted, enhanced the face and facial bones of the horse.

If you ever truly look at the heads of many of the warmbloods, that is where you find your "dressage" horses that have a ugly head, ugly facial bone structure...they inherited the draft heavy and pronounced roman nose of a draft...not the refined of the cross...
So they made a noseband that hides as much ugly as it can...
I to be fair and honest have also seen a wide noseband with piping/edging that now makes it appear thick and unattractive.
Then add the flash attachment or some other something..

To me, why so thick is cause they try to hide a ugly head and profile.
I was brought up and trained that less is more and you use tack to define, to present and enhance a appearance...
:runninghorse2:.... 
_jmo..._


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

A thick, padded dressage noseband is also stronger and wider, so can be cranked tighter... not all of the riders use a crank, but a lot of them do. it's a leverage noseband so it can be pulled tighter than one could get it by hand.

It started out as a fad, but now it's 'useful' too. I cannot stand the drooping, floppy browbands one now sees in dressage, either. Big, wide noseband and a jeweled browband that hangs down between the eyes? No thanks. 

I liked the wider, flat cavessons on the English bridles of the 50' and 60's. Even a plain-headed horse looked nice with those. They're hard to find now.


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## Idrivetrotters (Jan 5, 2013)

Oh the gag chain bit has raised its head here, and when I see a combination chain (not always bad by itself) combined with a gag, my first question is this:

What war are you fighting with your horse, and who will win?

The chain mouthpiece is not by itself a bad bit, some horses like the feel of it, and it is one of those "in the right hands vs wrong hands" debate. 

The gag, what more can be said about the gag other than it gives conflicting signals which some horses can deal with and others cannot.

The gag does two things, gives the horse a cue to raise its head then another cue via the poll to lower the head. Leverage by itself is not bad, I use a low port kimberwick for trails or when his adrenaline gets higher than his attention span. My problem comes from the design of some gags that have no stop until you run out of bit. 

This bit has a short enough purchase with the sweep back shanks to make it a gag on the mild end. Josey has some real garbage bits where there is no stop on the gag and is just nothing but pain on the lips, bars, tongue, jaw, and poll which that takes some serious effort to do that. Not to pick on Josey, all manufacturers have problematic bits, Myler has a few bits that make us facepalm. I belong to a group that uses science and physics to see how the bits work in reality vs advertising, science and physics really can prove problem bits vs non-problem bits. While the gag is almost universally hated in the group, the reality is, sometimes a slight bit of poll pressure can get through some adrenaline moments but should not be considered an everyday training bit.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

SilverMaple said:


> It started out as a fad, but now it's 'useful' too. I cannot stand the drooping, floppy browbands one now sees in dressage, either. Big, wide noseband and a jeweled browband that hangs down between the eyes? No thanks.



I've noticed the droopy browbands too. It looks like the bridle doesn't fit the horse. Like this:


https://theatlar.com/collections/bri...-black-padding


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Yes, I can't stand those floppy bejeweled browbands on dressage horses. Must we bedazzle everything?! I thought dressage was conservative?

As promised earlier, this is the photo of my old horse in his half-breed bit that freaked out the 'only snaffles/all bits are bad go bitless' folks. *sigh*


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

That is a beautiful picture of a beautiful horse. I have to say, though, I do see a wee bit of western bling...

I used to be such a "plain but quality" leather purist and really hated bling of any kind, but when I got a black horse... well, it's like a blank canvas, isn't it?

I bought my first tiger eye and silver bead browband...

...and now I'm hooked!


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

SilverMaple said:


> Yes, I can't stand those floppy bejeweled browbands on dressage horses. Must we bedazzle everything?! I thought dressage was conservative?
> 
> As promised earlier, this is the photo of my old horse in his half-breed bit that freaked out the 'only snaffles/all bits are bad go bitless' folks. *sigh*



That looks beautiful on him!

I do like bling. But I like bling that compliments the horse. The bling on your headstall (and of course the bit itself) is lovely. I love some types of western bling and have some rhinestone and studded headstalls myself. I guess what I dislike about some of the dressage bridles is 1. they look like a contraption to physically keep the mouth shut and 2. They don't compliment the horse's head. 


This is one of my favorite tack sets (a photo from Weaver Leather who sells it):










I have a black horse and it looks so pretty on her! I really should get a photo. I don't have the noseband because I don't use a tie-down. But even the noseband looks nice on the palomino. It doesn't overwhelm the head. I admit I really don't like tie-downs, but as a trail rider I don't need one. Maybe if I was doing something different I would feel differently.


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

I also am really interested by this thread. It is timely, too, as my sister is bridle-shopping for her fussy fussy mare. Every horse I've ridden seems to go so differently than the one before. Two of my horses - including my current one - seem to positively hate a cavesson no matter how many fingers of slackness they have. Others don't seem to care at all. Two horses went very well in double-jointed snaffles, another was like butter in a Mylar combination, and my current guy prefers a single-jointed snaffle.



bsms said:


> I admit, though, to tensing up when someone tells me THEY would never touch a harsh "leverage" bit. I sometimes wish I could change the terminology so that they would be called "signal" bits instead of curb bits.


I totally get your point on this bsms, and I agree, and yet, there is a small but stubborn part of me that loves the traditional yet bad-*** sound of "Spade Bit." It has a refreshing non-politically-correct ring that I find appealing...


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Captain Evil said:


> I totally get your point on this bsms, and I agree, and yet, there is a small but stubborn part of me that loves the traditional yet bad-*** sound of "Spade Bit." It has a refreshing non-politically-correct ring that I find appealing...


 And you know if you and your horse make it up to spade-bit level, you've really accomplished something!


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

> I belong to a group that uses science and physics to see how the bits work in reality vs advertising, science and physics really can prove problem bits vs non-problem bits. While the gag is almost universally hated in the group, the reality is, sometimes a slight bit of poll pressure can get through some adrenaline moments but should not be considered an everyday training bit.


I would hardly call a self-proclaimed expert making YouTube videos with a worn out horse skull in her backyard "science".
She, however, can demonstrate how some bits work as opposed to the marketing gimmicks and uneducated catalog descriptions touting miracle results for all that ails getting those who don't know better-buying bits. 

Some of the long term group members have a tendency to jump on the evil-no-matter-what bandwagon and as a whole, there is not much consideration for rider and horse differences. All barrel racers starfish and harpoon the guts out of their horses and all reiners and cow horse people run their horses into fences to get them to stop and use tack collars, so on and so forth. The diatribe gets a little old.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

To study a bit's mechanics, one needs X-rays of what actually happens in the mouth, measurements or rein pressures, behavior studies, etc. Those things are hard to find. This is one of my favorite bit photos:








That is a single-joint snaffle in action when the poll is not flexed. It is gentler (presses into the tongue less) if the poll is flexed. A double-joint snaffle, based on X-rays, puts MORE pressure on the tongue!

One often hears that a single joint snaffle will "nutcracker", poking the roof of the mouth. But this is what was found when someone looked at it with X-rays:


> "When tension was applied to the reins, the mouthpiece pressed more deeply into the tongue, thereby causing the joint to move away from the palate. Single-jointed bits are usually described as having a nutcracker-like action, the implication being that when tension is applied to the reins, the angle between the arms of the mouthpiece closes and the joint is pushed toward the palate. In our study, any nutcracker effect that tended to push the joint toward the palate was more than offset by indentation of the tongue."
> 
> - Bitting: The Inside Story by Hilary M. Clayton, BVMS, PHD, MRCVS
> 
> http://horseproblems.com.au/Bits/USDF_Dec05.pdf


Also, no one uses a nutcracker to "poke". They use it to crush, and the first use of the word I can find meant that a bit used like in the X-ray above can crush the horse's CHEEK between the folding bit and the molars. The author said he had frequently seen lacerations on the inside of the cheek of polo ponies caused by this and recommended many polo ponies be ridden in a curb instead.

Of course, in western riding, bits are meant to be used with minimal contact. You train a horse, not to accept bit pressure more, but less - with the goal of eventually not needing pressure at all. Bandit and I won't get there because we both just goof around far more than we train, but I can't forget when I was told this self photo of Mia & I represented "dangerous" riding:








I've looked a lot but haven't seen any genuine studies on the western approach to using bits. 90% of what I've found involved dressage, which has both a different philosophy and a different geometry. Is it because there isn't an interest? Because fewer problems are seen? Or just less money to spend? Regardless, one cannot call a bit harsh or bad without first looking at how the rider plans to use it!


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

bsms said:


> Of course, in western riding, bits are meant to be used with minimal contact. You train a horse, not to accept bit pressure more, but less - with the goal of eventually not needing pressure at all.
> 
> Regardless, one cannot call a bit harsh or bad without first looking at how the rider plans to use it!



You should rephrase that comment above...
When you ride correctly, you ride with leg and seat most, hands less.
Even in English disciplines...including dressage which I admit to not knowing much about.

_Minimal contact *is* whisper soft speaking to each other regardless of what you think it looks like._
Just as in western riding, same is true in English.
If you watch a true team of skilled equestrians work together the rein is never "tight" but consistent in appearance...
We strive for not having loops nor vise-grip appearances but soft, gentle, whisper of communication be present.
Where the horses head goes so shall follow our hand,...not a smack in the mouth.
Of course you can find the pictures that show different, but look at the head, the mouth, the hands speaking to the animal...they are what tell the story.
Look at the picture...but don't forget to read the words.


Your hands are intended to tell the story...they present the picture, the illustration.
But you must read the words, the content to get the full picture...
The cues given are through a seat bone, a leg pressure applied, a slight shift of calf-muscle...
A true team tuned into each other should not see a hand movement, should not see a uneven rein, or rein-drape...
Harmony in motion...silent, effortless un-seen communication.
That is true in western riding as is true in any type of the English disciplines too.

As for your comment about harsh bits...
I can only hope that no rider purposely chooses a bit because it can cause pain, discomfort...
It has been told many times...
Every horse is a individual and as such they get to pick, to choose what is comfortable to wear and speak to their rider with.
It is our job to listen to what they tell us...
When communication breaks-down is when the horrors can appear with any bit, any style any mouthpiece.
There are no limits of this is good, this is bad....there are only perceptions made by us. 

We _must_ listen to what our horses tell us and that may also change depending upon the rider who is listening or not paying any mind to the conversation.
That is what makes any bit good or bad...
:runninghorse2:...
_jmo..._


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

horselovinguy said:


> ..._Minimal contact *is* whisper soft speaking to each other regardless of what you think it looks like._
> Just as in western riding, same is true in English...
> 
> We strive for not having loops nor vise-grip appearances but soft, gentle, whisper of communication be present...


I believe my statement is correct. "_You train a horse, not to accept bit pressure more, but less..._" Notice I did NOT say, "Y_ou train a horse to accept MORE BIT PRESSURE_". My reference was not to how much pressure is applied, but to how long and often. It is indisputable that English riding values much greater durations of contact than Western.

That said...the science of rein pressure shows something different from your description. Hilary Clayton, after measuring rein pressures, concluded what Harry Chamberlin had without measurements decades before - that it isn't how much pressure one applies, but how consistent the pressure is that matters to the horse. "_...It is difficult for a rider to correctly assess the amount of tension in the reins when the contact is dynamic and tension is constantly changing. Our goal as riders should be to offer our horses a consistent and predictable contact that allows them to seek the bit confidently and, in so doing, to use their entire bodies correctly..._" And yes, that "use their entire bodies correctly" upsets me. Oh well. Life goes on.

Most riders - including me - like to believe they apply light pressure. Ounces. One poster on HF had her instructor describe it in a way I am certain both instructor and student believe happens: "Take a feather / Add a feather". That is a wonderful description of what we BELIEVE we do.

The reality, when measured, is that the feathers weigh more than a bird. More than a grown chicken. In many cases, more like a small turkey! This is what Clayton measured when a skilled dressage rider was trotting a young horse - and thus admittedly not what a highly trained horse might be able to achieve under the same rider:








The release of reins runs around 1-1.5 lbs. That is consistent with a study done by an English bit maker (which unfortunately I can't find any more). They concluded bit pressures below 2.5 lbs were so rarely seen as to be irrelevant, since one gets to 2.5-3 lbs of rein pressure just by taking the slack out of the reins!

While the pressure is kept wonderfully consistent between left & right hand, the pressure in the horse's mouth is not. It varies constantly between 3-6 lbs. With 3-6 lbs of pressure creating the background noise, like the buzzing of conversation in a bar, actual communication with the horse - actually asking for a half-halt - hits 9 lbs of pressure.

If bits are used for communication, then think of rein pressure as decibels instead of lbs. If you want to talk to your loved one in a bar, you will have to talk louder than if you are strolling along a quiet country path. In like manner, if one maintains long duration "soft contact" with a horse's mouth, then any cue (request) given to the mouth MUST be louder than what the horse is already hearing.

A European magazine compared the pressure used to cue a horse to stop from a canter, using identical bits, between a dressage rider & horse and a reiner. The dressage pair used between 18 & 26 lbs of pressure applied repeatedly. The reiner used less than 6 applied once. That isn't entirely fair since reining puts a lot of emphasis on stopping. But...it took a turkey to stop the dressage horse, not a feather! Of course, it took a small chicken to stop the reiner...

Another study measured peak pressures while ridden at various gaits. They found over 9 lbs at a walk, 11.5 lbs at a trot and the canter maxed at 23 lbs.

None of this makes English riding cruel, although it raises serious questions about anyone teaching a new rider to use continuous contact. I believe both Chamberlin and Clayton are right - a horse can learn to accept considerable pressure in the mouth and tune it out, if the pressure is consistent. Here is a thought: How long does it take to teach a horse to "reach for contact"? I don't know. Never tried it. Now, how long does it take to teach a horse to reach for a sugar cube? The answer to those questions may tell us how a horse feels about bit pressure.

FWIW, I'd love to see studies done of bit pressure on a western horses mouth. I strongly suspect such a study would reveal things that might make me unhappy. This as not a moral issue. Not "good" or "bad". It is a difference, and we ought to think about our choice. *Not criticize. Just think.* In my case, primarily a trail rider, it came down to this: Is there anything I want to do with a horse that requires frequent or longer duration contact? And for me, that answer was obviously "No".

"_As for your comment about harsh bits...
I can only hope that no rider purposely chooses a bit because it can cause pain, discomfort..._" 

I think it is indisputable that many riders, English and Western, deliberately choose a bit to increase pain. You can buy bits in both styles with very narrow twisted wire mouthpieces. George Morris recommends using a double twisted wire snaffle on a known bolter! As a training tool, that might be acceptable. Maybe. But he certainly is recommending it because it causes more pain. While I like Larry Trocha, I find it very disturbing that he claims a competition horse always tends to a harder mouth, and sometimes needs a very thin wire bit to 'sharpen him up'. I would be deeply bothered by anything I did with my horses that regularly hardened their mouths! If that always happened in my sport, I'd find another sport...:evil:


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

PS: Hilary Clayton, in the same article, wrote, "_Within this type of elastic contact, the rider can have a subtle conversation with the horse’s mouth that would not be possible if the reins were loose._"

I have no idea why she believes a subtle conversation with a horse's mouth requires tension in the reins. I suspect her background has led to to dismiss any other approach as possible. I will never have the skill to ride with a spade bit. I certainly have enough, though, to regularly use a standard curb bit with emphasis on signals. I find I can have a conversation with my horse, including using the reins, without taking slack out of the reins. That is the beauty of a bit that can rotate (a very obvious signal) before applying pressure.

That isn't the same as saying he will OBEY me all the time with slack in the reins. Heck, he doesn't OBEY me all the time regardless of rein tension! That is OK by me. I'm happier riding a horse who sometimes gets to tell me "No way!" He's happier too! Most of our conversation takes place with small slack in the reins. Until we have an argument. Then both of us raise our voices. Shout sometimes! He's a half-Arabian, half-Mustang gelding. I'm a retired military officer. We both understand shouting as communication...:rofl:

I also find Bandit will notice when I reduce the slack in the reins while using a snaffle. Bitless too. During the brief time I took riding lessons, the instructor kept emphasizing how incredibly aware horses are and that she would never be so subtle that a horse couldn't notice it. With snaffles.

When we accept bit pressure as part of doing business, we stop exploring how far a horse can go without it. For many sports, that probably makes sense. For trail riding, like the instructor I used to have, I will never be too subtle for my horse. My errors are all on the other side.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Why oh why, are we discussing dressage yet again, when the question is about a Western bit, in Western Riding.




> PS: Hilary Clayton, in the same article, wrote, "Within this type of elastic contact, the rider can have a subtle conversation with the horse’s mouth that would not be possible if the reins were loose."
> 
> I have no idea why she believes a subtle conversation with a horse's mouth requires tension in the reins. I suspect her background has led to to dismiss any other approach as possible. I will never have the skill to ride with a spade bit. I certainly have enough, though, to regularly use a standard curb bit with emphasis on signals. I find I can have a conversation with my horse, including using the reins, without taking slack out of the reins.


You have ZERO idea of what she is talking about, go ride a few dressage horses, no a lot, for a period of time, then come and talk about soft contact, elastic contact, with some sort of understanding. Get out there, feel some of these things, don’t look it up in books, and for Gods sake don’t try and recreate it on your own. I admit i’m slow on the uptake, but it has actually taken me years to REALLY understand what this is all about. But then you start from a a disadvantage because you can’t grasp the notion of a circle of energy....if you could at least understand what is meant by that, you may have a hope of understanding the rest of it.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I wasn't discussing dressage as a sport or how desirable or valid it may or may not be. Not at all. 

Yes, I do know what she is talking about. She is talking about exactly what she said - CONSISTENT contact, not light contact, because she had measured the amount of contact and found it was not "light". Yes, I know what elastic contact is. And what direct measurements say it is NOT.

It is physically impossible to pull a rein straight without putting additional pressure on the other end. It is also impossible to pull a clothesline straight without putting pressure on the other end. Does that pressure matter? I've said I agree with both Hilary Clayton (dressage) and Harry Chamberlin (US Cavalry) - horses can get used to even pressure, accept it and even like it.

Is it necessary for some sports? I don't pretend to know. As I said earlier on this thread, Bandit and I "_both just goof around far more than we train_". But I think it is a question worth thinking about, just as I think about how the rocks around here affect Bandit's feet. Doesn't stop me from riding trails. But it isn't right to make decisions for Bandit that affect him without first thinking about those effects. When I put metal in Bandit's mouth, or wrap a Dr Cook's bitless bridle around his face, I need to think about it. I need to monitor his reactions. I don't have a right to put ANY bit in his mouth, or ANY bitless bridle on him, without thinking about my goals, what is needed, what is helpful, and how he feels about the options.

That statement doesn't preclude ever selling Bandit to someone who loves dressage, or polo, or reining or cutting. "_Not "good" or "bad". It is a difference, and we ought to think about our choice. Not criticize. Just think._"

When Hilary Clayton says something "would not be possible" in traditional western riding, she opens herself to a response. I don't think Clayton has ever tried to explore the extent to which one can communicate with a horse while riding with slack in the reins.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

horselovinguy said:


> Me too....from a plain, flat leather strap that is the true hunting appointment with sewn in bit and reins, to a fancy stitched nose and brow, to a square-raised, to half-round, braided...but they all had a common part...conventional noseband that was correctly adjusted, enhanced the face and facial bones of the horse.
> 
> *If you ever truly look at the heads of many of the warmbloods, that is where you find your "dressage" horses that have a ugly head, ugly facial bone structure...they inherited the draft heavy and pronounced roman nose of a draft...not the refined of the cross...*
> So they made a noseband that hides as much ugly as it can...
> ...





Gotta say, I disagree. I love me some Roman Nose.!!! Don't EVER call that ugly~!! It be prettty!




It is flash nosebands, cranked WAY too tight , that can cut off the air supply of a dressage horse. I dispise them, since they are almost always too tight, (causing deep stress to the horse), . . . or so loose that you wonder why even bother.




Let's ditch them!. Bit your horse with what works. But, in a snaffle, you should use a chin strap. Especially If you are going to use a gigantic D ring bit!!! the darn thing will literally turn backward (inside out), if you give it any kind of lateral pull and you don't have a chin strap to prevent this!


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

BSMS, please post a link to the whole article instead of a cut piece, including the quote you question. It’ is hard to follow your theory without context.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Dez4455 said:


> So my mare Reba has been trained in a Jr. Cowhorse bit for normal/day to day riding and a Josey Mitchell shank chain bit for barrel racing. She is extremely soft in the mouth, fancy broke, moves off pressure nicely, etc etc. I have extremely soft hands and I always have, I am always worried about hurting the horse by pulling on the reins too hard. I ride with my seat and legs with very slight rein pressure with this horse and she response perfectly.
> 
> ADDED INFORMATION:
> Reba does NOT run through any bit, she doesn't brace against any bit, she is NOT hot at the gate or anywhere near/inside of any arena, she turns barrels by the rider's movement (sitting back in the seat, rein drop, and feet forward) and she does NOT respond on barrels if the rider is yanking her around the barrel. Also, if this bit hurt my tank of a mare in any way, she would make me eat the dirt she stands on in .2 seconds!!
> ...


The Gag bit has a head lifting action. It increases pressure on the corners of the lips, asking for the horse to raise his head. There is some very mild poll pressure but little or no tongue or bar pressure. Obviously the severity of the bit depends on the riders hands.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

updownrider said:


> BSMS, please post a link to the whole article instead of a cut piece, including the quote you question. It’ is hard to follow your theory without context.


The article is called "Rein Check - On contact, rein tension, and the myth of lightness". It originally was found here:

http://cvm.msu.edu/research/researc...usdf-connection/copy_of_ReinCheckJune2011.pdf

The link no longer works. I have it as a pdf on my computer. It was published in USDF Connection in June 2011. While searching in vain for it, I found this:

"_Our most pronounced results were the strong connection between magnitude of rein tension and gait (walk < trot < canter) as well as rider position in the saddle (posting/light seat < sitting). Similar results for association with gait have been found by Clayton et al. (2003) and Kuhnke et al. (2010). 

Conversely, the fact that rider position played a large part in the amount of rein tension used was more of a surprise. It seems that this is a factor that merits consideration during rein tension studies. Perhaps this result is connected to the large vertical and horizontal accelerations and decelerations of the horse's trunk at the trot and canter, and the rider's ability to adjust and adapt to these movements (Byström et al., 2009). 

Perhaps some riders support their seat through use of the reins while sitting? Or the higher values of rein tension at sitting trot and canter, compared to posting or light seat, may also reflect posting and light seat being used during warm-up and suppling work, with less demands on the horse, although sitting to the gait might be used in exercises striving to collect and “work” the horse. However, it is not fully in principle with riding theory that a horse that is more worked should do so with higher rein tension._" 

Using professional riders, they found averages of 1 lb walking with a long rein and a little over 3 for a short rein. Peak pressure was 12 lbs at a walk with long reins and 28 lb with short reins. At a trot, posting had a mean of 3.6 lbs, with a peak of 29. Sitting had figures of 5.2 and 27. Cantering averaged 5 lbs in a light seat and 6 sitting, with peaks of 25.5 and 38 lbs.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1558787815000787#bib8

Those values are similar to what I've seen elsewhere. My own unprofessional experience, goofing around, is that it is easier to use the reins lightly when I'm out of the saddle.

I want to emphasize I'm not saying this is wrong or bad. While my average rein pressure on a trail ride with Bandit would be pretty low, the peak could be higher than those - if he felt fussy that day. All of us do what we need to with horses to achieve our goals, and that includes goofing around on a trail ride! I've also spent more than enough time bitless to know that bitless can be rough on a horse who gets excited.

I think it does show why signal type bits can be very gentle. If you can clearly cue a horse by rotating a shank before applying pressure, and allow him a chance to respond during that signal phase, then the result is arguably gentler than a bitless bridle. I've recently switched Bandit back from the Dr Cook's bitless to his curb bit, looking for what we can do with both a faster release and trying to stay as much as possible in the signal phase.

I am not suggesting anyone else needs to do the same thing. I want to avoid making value judgments on sports or riding of any kind provided the horse is kept safe and healthy while working.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I've never found that gag bits - whether they're the Dutch gag type, the western type or the Cheltenham gag type - significantly raise or lower the head.
The word 'elevator' (as seen on the Dutch gag) isn't to do with raising the head but means that when you apply pressure the bit slides upwards on the mechanism and has a 'squeezing' action that puts that pressure on the poll and on the corners of the mouth.
The amount of pressure on the poll is relative to how much movement there is on the 'mechanism'.


I personally like to keep things simple but if the horse is happy in the chain then I wouldn't worry - its pretty thick and its smooth.
I wouldn't want to see a rider 'see sawing' at a horse's mouth in one of those things but it doesn't sound as if you'd be doing that.


The looser the curb chain the more action you have from the shanks before the chain hits the chin groove


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

BSMS, if you google way back machine, paste the article url, you can find the article.

Unfortunately, it is only one page.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Given that the article was available as a free download for several years, I think this is OK under Fair Use doctrine. It is still available for free reading here (finally found it!) courtesy of the USDF:

https://issuu.com/usdf2/docs/usdfarchive2011?e=33388472/66089856

Starts on page 386. Underlining is mine:



> My previous column (“Horse-Health Connection,” December 2010/January 2011) described the findings of a study designed to measure the amount of tension in side reins and how their length and elasticity affect the horse’s contact and, consequently, the amount of tension in the reins. Regardless of the length or type of side reins, the tension showed an undulating pattern, with higher tension during the diagonal stance (limbs on the ground) phases of the trot and lower tension during the suspension phases. The reason for the undulating pattern is that the horse’s head and neck nod downward slightly during each diagonal stance phase; and as the head nods downward, the horse pushes against the bit, causing a measurable increase in rein tension.
> 
> None of the horses in the study was reluctant to go forward or tried to avoid contact with the bit. Interestingly, all of the horses showed similar amounts of side-rein tension, which supports the idea that it was a mechanical effect of the head and neck movements rather than individual horses showing a preference for taking more or less contact with the reins. What was surprising, however, was the amount of tension.
> 
> ...


I start with a different approach to lightness since I am not a dressage rider. My goal isn't a "light" movement of the horse, but a means of communicating with my horse with the least possible physical pressure in his mouth or around his head. Since the trails are uneven and rocky, I want my horse to be able to stumble, use his head for balance in the stumble, without being snapped in the mouth. Because he WILL sometimes stumble. The ground here will sometimes give out underneath him, or he may place a foot on a smooth round rock that is covered by a thin layer of sand.

My goals would include talking with and listening to my horse with the least amount of reliance on the reins. A perfect ride, to me, would include being able to ride thru the desert without ever needing to take slack out of the reins. That goal is very different from what many people want and that is OK. We each get to choose our priorities and this is one of mine. This seems like an obvious statement to me: If I rely on communicating with the reins, I'll never learn what can be done communicating without them.


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

Good article, thanks for posting. While it discusses contact, I think it is more about tension, using English dressage riders as her case studies. Hilary Clayton’s articles are written based on tests she conducted (science) and not a how-to ride a horse. Comparing Western riding to English (dressage) riding is a tough sell, at least to me. But that is my opinion. Cheers.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

My trainer used to talk about 'light and tight'. She would often get to work with people who were having issue of a horse being behind the vertical, anticipating the rider too much, becoming worried any time a rein was picked up, no matter how soft. The owner would say, "see how light my horse is, how responsive".


But, the horse is 'light' because they are tight. They respond to ANY contact on the bit with recoil, and are anxious to give the rider the correct response, so fast that they cannot be enjoined to slow down and THINK their way through a new request, nor to stay WITH the rider when the rider is asking for a change.
But that I mean, the horse assumes that when you pick up on the reins, it is supposed to jump forward into a trot, . . . or, when you ask it to move away from you, (on the lead line), it assumes that you want it to do that AND to start running around you. Or, you ask it step over a log, and it just goes right over and off, when what you really said was, "can you step your front legs over and stand there?"


my examples arent that great, but the horse is anticipating the rider, and while we may thing , oh, that's great, he's reading my mind, what it really means is that he's in his OWN mind. He thinks he 'knows' what you want and offers it up as quick as possible, out of anxiety, or out of being mentally on autopilot.


He can't MEET the rein with same amount of contact you put into it, he can't even come off the rein with the same amount of intention you put into it. He takes over, and he recoils off the contact, and his neck is tight, and his back is tight. That's 'light and tight'.


If the horse cannot come to and meet the feel on the rein, he is taking over. Like the horse that swings his head around in the so-called neck flexions , and you pick up the rein and he whips it around. He is not connected to the rein or the feel, he is taking over, getting it over with, and not turning loose/soft at all.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Actually, I would argue a genuinely soft horse IS one who is thinking and - in a way - taking over. There are at least two reasons a horse may want to do what you want: fear and trust. A horse who obeys out of fear will be quick to obey, but in a tense manner. Bandit did that a lot when I got him.

But a horse can also obey because he believes you offer 'good advice'. Bandit is actually softest when he is afraid. My ideas have worked in getting us out of tight spots many times. The tighter the spot, the more he WANTS to follow my advice. And even a tiny change in balance, maybe unknown to me, will be enough.

That probably wouldn't be so good in a sport or show horse. I don't know though since I don't ride one and never will. For what I do...anticipation is a good thing. I can always tell him he made the wrong guess.


> "Therefore, everywhere - out-of-doors or in the haute ecole - success with horses is to him who applies this maxim of Baucher...
> 
> '*Let him think that he is our master, then he is our slave.*' There dwells an eternal equestrian truth!
> 
> ...


I suspect Baucher meant it differently than I do. Or maybe not. I've read Baucher but don't entirely understand him. When Bandit decides my 'suggestion' is a good one, he then performs it with a determination and steadiness that impresses me. If I point him at a place to climb out of the wash, and he agrees it is a good place, he then climbs out and will adapt as needed, pushing thru any brush, pressing on if the ground gives way, using his ability to achieve the goal. Same if he accepts responsibility for getting thru any tough spot on a trail.

When it is his decision, he never spooks or relents. When it is mine, without consulting him, he may spook or give up. That is the difference between pushing him to do something and leading (convincing) him to do something. I often fail. Very often fail. But when he wants to do what I want, when he considers it his idea as much as mine, then he is light - not needing the reins light.


> When I gave up trying to control Portia and tried instead to find out what she was, both she and life took on a different complexion. Here in my very back garden and under my own hand was the novelty and thrill I had missed while traveling over five continents. Here was the adventure, knowledge and inspiration which some people seek in outer space, others in the unexplored centre of the earth's surface. Here, in front of my eyes as soon as I opened them to it, was excitement enough for a lifetime...
> 
> ...Ridden by neck-aids, the horse is a free individual. It cannot be forced. It can not be controlled, but it can and does have to be guided. *It has to have everything explained to it, and its cooperation has then to be won over.* If it is asked to do anything absurd, it will merely say, "This fool rider does not know what he is talking about," and go its own way. It is hopeless to try riding by neck-aids until one has learnt the horse's language...
> 
> ...As soon as a person is prepared to follow his horse, his seat will come automatically. *His only problem then is the eternal one of the educationalist and the politician - that of getting what he wants out of his subject. This is an art, not a technique; it is a skill, not a science.* When to give in, when to press forward; when to exert authority and when to withdraw it - these are moments whose recognition cannot be taught by rule of thumb. They can only be recognized by the sympathetic - by the person who is not entirely engrossed in his own welfare. - Adventures Unbridled - Moyra Williams 1960


I'll never try riding Bandit without reins. Bandit is a very independent soul. And reins are very convenient. But the more I need reins to achieve my goals, the less they are Bandit's goals. The less they are Bandit's goals, the more I am pushing instead of leading. To that extent, I am failing.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

re. the article that @*bsms* posted
Its a better read in its full version, though I'm not entirely sure how it relates to the OP's query this is my thinking on it.
With this type of research there are so many things to take into account I usually find that they lose their way.
When you talk about the weight of the tension on the reins, even taking the rider ability out of the scenario, so much depends on the actual horse and what you're doing with it at any given time.
If I use two of our horses as an example - call them A and B - and put elasticated side reins on them
Horse A will only measure a small amount for a very short time and then she'll give to the pressure and hold her head wherever its been placed, on the lightest contact. 
Horse B will resist that pressure for longer but will eventually 'give to it' and relax. Horse B was mostly just a hunting horse who dabbled in various other things, so unless she's schooled regularly working in a collection contact/head carriage is alien to her. She's also a much 'hotter', forward going type of horse
As far as the difference in what you're doing affects the amount o tension weight - try riding piaffe on a horse that's very hot, powerful and forward going and compare it to riding piaffe on one that's got to be constantly 'legged' on just to get enough forward movement to not have the horse standing still.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I think hard data - be it rein pressure, pressures under saddle or X-rays of bits in use - allow us to make informed decisions. On the rare times my wife takes a video of my riding, I watch it in slow motion. I don't like what I see, but seeing it in SLOOWWW motion helps me. What I feel and what the video reveals are often very different. I want to know what is happening, not what I want to believe is happening.

When Bandit switches into racing mode - and he covered a LOT of miles in races - he isn't going to slow at a whisper. I don't see that ever changing. Rein pressure and even "harsh bits" can keep us both safe. That is OK by me, but I want it to be an informed decision.


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## Dez4455 (Mar 14, 2019)

I have been in Florida for a week so I am so sorry for the late reply.

I understand what you are all saying. When I mean my horse is 'light' or 'soft', I mean I have all the slack in the world in my reins. She responds by my seat and body/legs. If I pick my reins up and put them up towards her ears and lean forward, she gallops. If I only pick up my reins and put them towards her ears, she won't move a muscle. If she's moving forward at any speed, I lean back in my seat and throw my legs forward and she will stop on a dime. The only time I use my reins is moving her over. If she is moving at any speed and I sit straight in my seat, pick up the right rein and put it on her neck, she moves over. Same thing for the left. When I am running her on barrels, I lean forward with my reins towards her ears (she runs to the first barrel), I sit back in my seat with legs forward (she starts to slow down), I pick up the right rein and put it on her neck (she moves over for the pocket of the barrel), and she turns. 

I don't have to pull, see-saw, or anything of the sort, on her mouth. I use 'Woah', 'Hey', 'Easy', etc for more cues. She is very reactive in the seat. She doesn't rush, jump forward, etc.


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