# Beginner English Rider that needs a little Help



## EmilyJoy (Dec 30, 2011)

Firstly I do not have access to any trainers/rider instructors, and I am a beginner if you can call me that...so with that in mind I will continue... 

I am getting into English riding a bit, mainly because I would like to jump my horse, and because I just want the know how and want to have some fun ... 

So my quest is does anybody have any advice on getting started? Beginner Books/DVDs or tips that worked for you or seemed easy to understand? 

I want to learn the right way of English riding, and I'm willing to go slow...

I _have_ ridden horses, mostly I have rode them bareback or with a western saddle... Fire away with answers!

Thanks in advance.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

One of the best: Hunter Seat Equitation - 3rd Edition by George Morris


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

Hi there Emily 

I know you say you have no access to an instructor.. is that just English, or western too?

If you want to jump, an instructor for both yourself and the horse is imperative I'm afraid, too much can go wrong to not have one. 

Time scale, if you're looking to jump, and have ridden before, i would say around 12-18months, depending if your horse knows how to jump already.

Is your horse learning English with you, or is your horse English? So many questions!

If you have a horse that already knows english and is a bit of a school master, you'll find it a lot easier in comparrison to having to train a western horse for english.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

DuffyDuck said:


> If you want to jump, an instructor for both yourself and the horse is imperative I'm afraid, too much can go wrong to not have one.


Yes. Trying to learn that on your own exponentially increases the chances of you getting hurt really badly.


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## jinxremoving (Apr 6, 2009)

The US Pony Club Manuals are extremely good and can be found for cheap on Amazon or eBay. The books are aimed at children but even an adult can find them beneficial. I found them to be super helpful, they start at the very basics and there are multiple levels that go all the way up to advanced level riding but written in a way that is easy to understand.

As mentioned jumping without an instructor is probably not going to end well, but since no one really cares about any of these warnings and you're going to do it anyway... make sure you always wear a helmet, don't try and catch yourself if you fall by sticking your arms out and never jump alone! Ever. I'm serious! Make sure you bring a friend with you to call for help if something bad happens.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

jinxremoving said:


> As mentioned jumping without an instructor is probably not going to end well, but since no one really cares about any of these warnings and you're going to do it anyway... make sure you always wear a helmet


I'd add a body protector to the equation as well. Don't wait until you get a broken bone or a torn ligament to buy one.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

mildot said:


> I'd add a body protector to the equation as well. Don't wait until you get a broken bone or a torn ligament to buy one.


 
If you actually read the label on BPs, it says they don't prevent breaks and tears etc but help protect against bruising.

Y'know when I told you I dislocated shoulder/acj and snapped humerus in half.. all with a BP on..with shoulder pads 

BUT they are good, and better safe than sorry!


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

DuffyDuck said:


> If you actually read the label on BPs, it says they don't prevent breaks and tears etc but help protect against bruising.


No maker will make any claims that their BP prevents any kind of injury. 

Just like helmets, they only serve to spread the force of impact over a larger area. And that alone reduces the probability of a broken bone or ligament tear.

Had I been wearing a body protector with shoulder pads when I fell a month ago, my chances of ending with an AC separation of the shoulder would have been less. What ended up being a ligament tear might have been only a ligament stretch, or even just some strained muscles and no ligament damage.

All this safety gear just moves the odds a bit in your favor. But that little bit is often the difference between a minor injury that just needs ice and NSAID and one that needs surgery. Or the difference between hospitalization and death.


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## jinxremoving (Apr 6, 2009)

mildot said:


> Had I been wearing a body protector with shoulder pads when I fell a month ago, my chances of ending with an AC separation of the shoulder would have been less. What ended up being a ligament tear might have been only a ligament stretch, or even just some strained muscles and no ligament damage.


Do you suppose something like this would have helped in your case:

http://www.applesaddlery.com/p-8797-charles-owen-collarbone-and-shoulder-protection-system.aspx

I saw that last night and it's the first body protector I've seen for riding that had shoulder pads. Looks interesting but I wonder how awkward it would be to ride in.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

jinxremoving said:


> Do you suppose something like this would have helped in your case:
> 
> CHARLES OWEN INC (*E) Charles Owen Collarbone and Shoulder Protection System
> 
> I saw that last night and it's the first body protector I've seen for riding that had shoulder pads. Looks interesting but I wonder how awkward it would be to ride in.


 
X Country ones have shoulder pads too.. never seen that tshirt style one mind you!


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

jinxremoving said:


> Do you suppose something like this would have helped in your case:
> 
> CHARLES OWEN INC (*E) Charles Owen Collarbone and Shoulder Protection System
> 
> I saw that last night and it's the first body protector I've seen for riding that had shoulder pads. Looks interesting but I wonder how awkward it would be to ride in.


Probably would have helped, but it's a bit steep in price for what is really just an underarmour shirt with a couple of foam pads.

Like Duffy said, most BP makers offer shoulder pads that fasten to the vest with velcro.

Right now I am waiting for an e-mail reply from a UK shop about shipping charges for an Airowear Outlyne body protector with add-on shoulder pads.

Including the shoulder pads, the vest is still less (after accounting for the currency conversion) direct from the UK than the same vest bought here without the shoulder pads.

Not to mention the fact that most retailers in the US only carry kids and womens sizes in protectors, and I am neither.

Airowear Outlyne









Outlyne with add-on shoulder pads


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

Mildot, if you have a problem with it, let me know. 

You can order to me, then I can send it to you if its cheaper that way... I was wearing my airowear all last week riding Duffy, not when the people came to try her out though.. we had a few 'test' days at the start of the week!


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

Thanks for the offer. Honestly I'm saving so much by ordering direct that post would have to be ridiculous for the deal to not work in my favor.

Sooo...now that you mention it, how do you like your Airowear? Anything you dislike about it?

I was able to handle a kid's model at the tack store and it felt really beefy (that's a plus in my book) compared to the Tipperary vests next to it.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

mildot said:


> Thanks for the offer. Honestly I'm saving so much by ordering direct that post would have to be ridiculous for the deal to not work in my favor.
> 
> Sooo...now that you mention it, how do you like your Airowear? Anything you dislike about it?
> 
> I was able to handle a kid's model at the tack store and it felt really beefy (that's a plus in my book) compared to the Tipperary vests next to it.


I hope it works out for you 

I love mine, absolutely. I do get a bit sticky in it, but heck.. riding is a sport, right?!

Only issue I sometimes have is if my ACJ is giving me trouble, I have a strap thing to put on and its bulky under the airowear which tips it... 

The first couple of times I wore it, it felt tight on my collar bone on my dodgy shoulder too, however thats because its more raised than the other side. 

It sits very snug and form fitting, and the back doesn't 'catch' on my saddle either. Or when I'm dismouting... apart from personal issues, I have found no design fault with it, and wear it every time I hack out, or when I'm having a nervous day.


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## EmilyJoy (Dec 30, 2011)

OK, I understand about the jumping being dangerous...Everything I do, I am going to have to do it by myself, with the aid of books/DVDs...Jumping included... My view of jumping isn't to try to jump five feet high, its to jump an occasional log/small jump. I know you don't start beginners riding by jumping, but my goal is to jump a _little_, but to mainly know how to ride English.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

EmilyJoy said:


> OK, I understand about the jumping being dangerous...Everything I do, I am going to have to do it by myself, with the aid of books/DVDs...Jumping included... My view of jumping isn't to try to jump five feet high, its to jump an occasional log/small jump. I know you don't start beginners riding by jumping, but my goal is to jump a _little_, but to mainly know how to ride English.


 
In which case... I would get films of yourself riding, whether parent, friend etc take them, and then post them here on the critique boards so people can help you improve.. its difficult to say over the internet without seeing whats happening...


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## EmilyJoy (Dec 30, 2011)

My horse is not really trained in anything particular, maybe trail riding? That's mainly what I do... So yes we would be learning English riding together...

My goals right now are to just get the basics so I know how to ride English a bit... I really am not wanting to get into it as in "All I can think about is riding English" type of riding!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Statistically, jumping is on the order of 10-50 times more dangerous than riding the flats. Small jumps obviously have less risk than big jumps. However, the best risk reduction for jumping is taking some lessons. It isn't so much being told the right position, I think, as having a horse that knows how to jump taking care of you for a bit as you learn. If money is tight, even 6-8 lessons may help you get off to a good start.

My mare sometimes goes over a ground pole without noticing it. Other times, she believes it is attached to an invisible 3' jump...:evil:

Another book worth mentioning, although I think it is out of print, is Common Sense Horsemanship (Amazon.com: Common sense horsemanship;: A distinct method of riding and schooling horses and of learning to ride, (9780668026024): Vladimir S Littauer: Books).

I think riding English is a good thing to try, even if one prefers western. And vice-versa.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

bsms said:


> Statistically, jumping is on the order of 10-50 times more dangerous than riding the flats. Small jumps obviously have less risk than big jumps. However, the best risk reduction for jumping is taking some lessons. It isn't so much being told the right position, I think, as having a horse that knows how to jump taking care of you for a bit as you learn. If money is tight, even 6-8 lessons may help you get off to a good start.
> 
> *My mare sometimes goes over a ground pole without noticing it. Other times, she believes it is attached to an invisible 3' jump...:evil:*
> 
> Another book worth mentioning, although I think it is out of print, is Common Sense Horsemanship (Amazon.com: Common sense horsemanship;: A distinct method of riding and schooling horses and of learning to ride, (9780668026024): Vladimir S Littauer: Books).


 
At least your horse didn't sit like a dog the first time you rode a pole... 

But agreed.. a handful of lessons will get you on the right foot... I've been riding English for around 6-7years, and I have lessons twice a week ... if you find a good trainer, then getting the basics will help, or riding a school master so you learn the 'feel' to help transfer to your own horse.. but these all take time!


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## EmilyJoy (Dec 30, 2011)

DuffyDuck said:


> In which case... I would get films of yourself riding, whether parent, friend etc take them, and then post them here on the critique boards so people can help you improve.. its difficult to say over the internet without seeing whats happening...


That would probably be the smart thing to do...we'll see how things work out..I still have a few things I want to work on with my horse before I ride English...But I do want to check out any English books/DVDs now, so I have half an idea what I am getting myself into...


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

EmilyJoy said:


> That would probably be the smart thing to do...we'll see how things work out..I still have a few things I want to work on with my horse before I ride English...But I do want to check out any English books/DVDs now, so I have half an idea what I am getting myself into...


 
Youtube... its fweeeeeee!

I can't recommend anything off the top of my head, so will google once home for you! 
Honestly, there are some great people on here that will give you indepth, helpful critique to help build you on your way... free lesson of sorts!!


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## EmilyJoy (Dec 30, 2011)

I used to jump bareback all the time when I had my Shetland pony a while ago... we'd go over everything...probably wasn't very smart but it was fun... Right now it seems riding bareback is a ton easier then English from what I've learned...


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## EmilyJoy (Dec 30, 2011)

DuffyDuck said:


> Youtube... its fweeeeeee!
> 
> I can't recommend anything off the top of my head, so will google once home for you!
> Honestly, there are some great people on here that will give you indepth, helpful critique to help build you on your way... free lesson of sorts!!


That is what I'd like...I mean aren't there any "do it yourselfers" out there? Sure it might take twice as much practice as it would, had you a trainer...but I haven't and getting one is not an option...!

And I'll check out YouTube... The way I like to learn is watch someone do it, do it yourself, then watch again to see if I got it right


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

EmilyJoy said:


> Right now it seems riding bareback is a ton easier then English from what I've learned...


How can that possibly be? 

Riding "english" is not all that difficult. Staying on the saddle should be no more difficult than staying on any other, and easier than staying on without a saddle.

The leg cues are easy to figure out. Read George Morris' book. He lays it all out. In case you need any references about him, just search his name on the internet.

The trickiest part, for someone used to loose reins, is learning how to keep contact without bothering the horse. And if you are already used to being balanced on a horse (bareback riding) then having smooth and independent hands will be easy.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

EmilyJoy said:


> That is what I'd like...I mean aren't there any "do it yourselfers" out there? Sure it might take twice as much practice as it would, had you a trainer...but I haven't and getting one is not an option...!
> 
> And I'll check out YouTube... The way I like to learn is watch someone do it, do it yourself, then watch again to see if I got it right


Honestly, unless you are going to dedicate years and years of time, it is virtually impossible, IMO, to self teach without the help from someone who knows more...

Having outside eyes helps, so you know if your shoulders are too rounded, you're gripping to high with your knee, your horse is faking roundness by over bending etc... its all things that another person needs to see.. unless you have mirrors round the entire school


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## EmilyJoy (Dec 30, 2011)

No I am not going to dedicate years and years of time... I'd rather just get on a horse with a western saddle/bareback and go for a ride...But I do want to get the basics down... And I am willing to put in time to get just that...

Mildot to me from what everybody is saying bareback _is _easier then English... I mean I've taught bareback riding to myself...And I am learning more about western riding by watching dvds/reading books...and in IMO I am doing better... But still I've never ever had a trainer...although at times I would have liked one...
and well back to my main question I want to know of any books/Dvds that you like or have helped you as a beginner to ride..


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

EmilyJoy said:


> Mildot to me from what everybody is saying bareback _is _easier then English....


Sorry but that statement just does not pass the common sense test. But whatever.....




EmilyJoy said:


> back to my main question I want to know of any books/Dvds that you like or have helped you as a beginner to ride..


It's in my first response to you. Really thorough but really easy to understand.


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## EmilyJoy (Dec 30, 2011)

OK Thank you... It would pass the common sence test if you've been riding bareback for a long time, and if you've never really ridden English...For me it seems like it would really be hard, but ya know I'll to have to try before I can tell how hard it really is...If its too hard for me maybe I'll wait for a few years when I can drive myself to a rider instructor... I know good riding takes time to achieve...


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

EmilyJoy said:


> It would pass the common sence test if you've been riding bareback for a long time, and if you've never really ridden English...


Forget "english" for a moment.

What would logic say to you, that it is easier to ride a horse with nothing between you and him and your feet dangling down in the air or while seated on a piece of leather (western if you must) designed to support you on top of him?


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## Jumper12 (Feb 2, 2012)

i agree, i think it would be extremely risky to learn to jump on your own. Also, a xc vest would be a good idea. while they cant keep you protected from EVERYTHING they are certainly helpful, I have fallen off in mine a number of times and the landing has been so much easier on my back!
good luck to you.


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## poultrygirl (Sep 11, 2010)

mildot said:


> Forget "english" for a moment.
> 
> What would logic say to you, that it is easier to ride a horse with nothing between you and him and your feet dangling down in the air or while seated on a piece of leather (western if you must) designed to support you on top of him?


And additionally, what's easier on your horse? Being on that piece of leather, and having a little bit of shock absorb, or pounding up and down on his kidneys? Saddles make life easier :lol:

To the OP, I use to be one of those people who said "nah, I dont need lessons. I can teach myself." 
Uhhhh....No. There are so many things you learn in lessons that aren't even while you're in the saddle! Fitting your tack, improving your horsemanship, an experienced eye to improve your relationship/respect dynamic with your horse--these are all things you cannot teach yourself, unless someone more experienced shows you. 

Your position--that is imperative, and you cant teach yourself. Muscle memory builds. If you build bad position, you will spend a lot of time undoing it later. Take video or pics of yourselve when you ride--my family always thinks I want them to do this because Im a narcassist, but, if you dont have a trainer's eye on you, how else do you know when you're out hacking by yourself?

I had a season of lessons, and still, I wont attempt jumps, because I know that's out of my league right now. 

Your horse wont be able to really tell the difference between a western saddle and a english, but the approach to reins/bridles/bits/contact is very different. 

If you have any opportunity to, i would encourage you to take a handful--you owe it to yourself and it makes stuff so much easier :wink:
Happy trails!


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## heymckate (Nov 23, 2010)

Something that got lost in the shuffle I think, but is important nonetheless:

I can't stress enough how important it is that someone is at least within ear shot of you when you jump, especially if you plan on attempting it without taking lessons to learn properly. It's terribly easy for things to go awry when jumping (isn't there an old thread somewhere with photos of jumps gone wrong? Look for it--gives you an idea of many different things that can happen), so you need someone around to make sure you can get help if you need it. SO important, especially if you're riding a horse that has not been trained to jump either.

And speaking of your horse... start slow, for both your sake and his. Begin with a single pole on the ground. Then move to a couple trot poles, and work on those for as long as it takes for both you and your horse to be comfortable. Only then start raising the poles off the ground, starting barely off the ground (like, 6 inches). Jumping too high too fast will be risking major injury to both you and your horse.


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## Shropshirerosie (Jan 24, 2012)

Could you perhaps go away for a weekend somewhere and have an intensive course of 'English'?

Then come back, practise the basics, do the you tube thing... And repeat.

I think you will find it all a lot easier if you start with a solid foundation of understanding.


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## EmilyJoy (Dec 30, 2011)

Yeah I guess learning to ride English right now is probably not going to happen...I still might dink around with it, (not jumping) but I probably won't do much else...

Thanks all for your advice...All of it was worthy of listening to! Right now I'll probably focus on western riding,as it seems much easier anyway.


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## EmilyJoy (Dec 30, 2011)

Has any body read the book horseback riding for dummies? lol that sounds like a good book for me to read!


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## jinxremoving (Apr 6, 2009)

EmilyJoy said:


> Has any body read the book horseback riding for dummies? lol that sounds like a good book for me to read!


I've read it and wasn't impressed. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, look into the US Pony Club Manuals:

Amazon.com: The United States Pony Club Manual of Horsemanship: Basics for Beginners - D Level (Book 1) (9780876059524): Susan E. Harris, Ruth Ring Harvie: Books

Amazon.com: The United States Pony Club Manual of Horsemanship: Intermediate Horsemanship - C Level (Book 2) (0021898059772): Susan E. Harris: Books


Those two books should be given to everyone looking to ride. It starts at the very basics and goes onto everything else. I'm a book nut when it comes to riding and before I started taking lessons, I found the Pony Club Manuals to be the most helpful.

Another couple books I found helpful:

Amazon.com: Getting the Most from Riding Lessons (Horse Wise Guides) (9781580170826): Mike Smith: Books

Amazon.com: Centered Riding (A Trafalgar Square Farm Book) (9780312127343): Sally Swift, Jean MacFarland, Mike Noble, Edward E. Emerson: Books


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## EmilyJoy (Dec 30, 2011)

Thank you! They look helpful to someone like me. Have you looked into any riding books by Cherry Hill?


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

EmilyJoy said:


> I'll probably focus on western riding,as it seems much easier anyway.


:?:

Why are you so hung up on english riding being "difficult"? You've never done it, so you have no frame of reference to compare it to anything.

Why the closed mind?

I'll jump on any horse with whatever saddle or bridle it has on, and in a few minutes of poking around I will figure out his basic buttons. And I ride english about 99.99999% of the time.


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## EmilyJoy (Dec 30, 2011)

Have you ever read this book "Equine Fitness" by Jeu Ballou ?


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## EmilyJoy (Dec 30, 2011)

I've never really ridden English before...I've rode in a English Saddle and it seemed a little hard to keep balanced...

It just seemed like it would be hard because everybody seems to think you must have a trainer in order to learn...?


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## EmilyJoy (Dec 30, 2011)

jinxremoving have you ever read this book?


EmilyJoy said:


> Have you ever read this book "Equine Fitness" by Jeu Ballou ?


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## jinxremoving (Apr 6, 2009)

EmilyJoy said:


> jinxremoving have you ever read this book?


Sorry, I'm not familiar with it. The book seems popular though, it's the #2 selling equine medicine / health book on Amazon.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

EmilyJoy said:


> It just seemed like it would be hard because everybody seems to think you must have a trainer in order to learn...?


That's true of any riding discipline, including western. There's more to riding than hopping on a horse and ripping around....if you want to jump down the rabbit hole.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

EmilyJoy said:


> ...It just seemed like it would be hard because everybody seems to think you must have a trainer in order to learn...?


Jumping does not equal Englsih riding. I would strongly recommend getting lessons if you jump because the danger increases with jumping. In a study of eventing done in the 90s:_"The place where most accidents occurred was on cross country. Cross country involves jumping fixed obstacles at speed. If a horse hits one of these obstacles, either the rider or horse and rider will fall. The second most common area was either stadium or other unspecified. Warmup areas for the jumping phases were the next most likely place for an injury. It comes as no surprise the jumping phases accounted for 86% of the injuries. Dressage accounted for only 1% and the stable area and other accounted for 12%, again indicating the surprisingly large number of unmounted injuries."_​American Medical Equestrian Associaton

That doesn't mean it is suicidal to jump, but I wouldn't take up rock climbing by reading a book and then trying to climb a cliff. You can learn riding 'English' while on the flats. Dressage is English, and there is no law against using a jump saddle to ride a horse without jumping. I do so regularly.

You can also mix and match - ride an English saddle but use the reins Western, until you get comfortable. I'll never ride 'English' with the horse 'on the bit', but I can learn a forward seat (and when I want to use it, and when not) without needing a lot of lessons.

Jumping on a green horse without lessons runs the risk up fast. That doesn't mean you can't keep jumping as a goal, but there is a lot you could play with before trying jumping. And for jumping, I would strongly recommend at least some lessons on a trained horse with a good instructor first.


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## EmilyJoy (Dec 30, 2011)

Well I have to start somewhere and it might as well be by reading/riding...I'm not saying going out galloping as fast as I can and jump a 5' high jump...  ...right now I don't believe I could even get into a canter with out loosing my balance...I'm thinking more of riding around a bit at a walk...And I don't think I'm going to get myself or the horse hurt by doing that...I've got to start somewhere...Having a trainer would be prime...but that is not an option... I know I'll not be the best rider in the state, but I am not aiming to be that...


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

EmilyJoy said:


> right now I don't believe I could even get into a canter with out loosing my balance......


Seriously?

If you don't think that you can't canter without losing your balance on an english saddle, how can you canter without losing your balance on a western saddle?

Do you ride around holding on to the horn?

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but you keep on making judgements about how hard it will be to sit and ride on an english saddle and you have never done it. How can you possibly know how hard or how easy it is?

Many here have done both and we've been telling you: just riding around on the flat is not that different. And a balanced seat is a balanced seat. It doesn't matter what the saddle looks like.

All we've said is don't go jumping without someone coaching you. Not even little jumps. Even if you don't get hurt over little jumps, you may pick up some seriously bad habits that WILL get you hurt over bigger ones.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

EmilyJoy said:


> My view of jumping isn't to try to jump five feet high, its to jump an occasional log/small jump.


I did this (acromioclavicular separation) to my shoulder jumping 18 inches when a mistake on the approach at the canter led me to jump long and then lose my balance forward on landing. Which then led me to pile drive my shoulder into the dirt.

And that was a mistake made under the supervision of a trainer.


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## Jumper12 (Feb 2, 2012)

mildot said:


> Seriously?
> 
> If you don't think that you can't canter without losing your balance on an english saddle, how can you canter without losing your balance on a western saddle?
> 
> ...


I think youre being a little harsh here, shes pretty much said shes not gonna go jump on her own. also I totally agree that doing another discipline can feel way harder than doing your own. I may be able to jump 4' but put me in a western saddle and I feel like a beginner again!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

mildot said:


> Seriously?
> 
> If you don't think that you can't canter without losing your balance on an english saddle, how can you canter without losing your balance on a western saddle?
> 
> Do you ride around holding on to the horn?...


No, but an English saddle is shaped different, and it affects the feel. I find it easier to keep side-side stability on a western saddle, quite apart from the horn. The saddle's tree is wider, and it feels more stable side-side to me than my jump saddle.

A western saddle is also designed to be ridden 'on your pockets', as I heard so many times taking western lessons. Thus the 4-5" cantle on most western saddles, and the extended tree past the cantle. But it you ride a jump saddle that way...it is possible, but it isn't 'right' - it isn't what the way the saddle was designed to be ridden. If your horse tends to jump into the canter, like my gelding does, having a bit more behind you feels good.

Psychologically, having a much smaller saddle with nothing in the front is also pretty awkward feeling, although I don't think someone who rides bareback should mind it. That is particularly true if you don't entirely trust your horse - and I can't. Not with Mia. I've ridden her many times in a jump saddle, but probably won't do it again. Certainly not until she has behaved well enough over a period of time that I won't worry about her having a melt down.

For EmilyJoy: If you don't jump right away, and trainers aren't an option, read a couple of books, put an English saddle on your horse, and experiment. It won't take long to find your balance. The English use of reins is quite different, and I still neck rein my gelding while riding in an English saddle. Keep an eye on your horse's reactions. They are often the best teacher for when we're doing something wrong. Maybe you'll fall, but it is possible to fall from a western saddle too...

Have fun. That is what riding is about for most of us. If you aren't having fun, then something is wrong!


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## EmilyJoy (Dec 30, 2011)

Mildot, I have ridden in an English Saddle before...I'll freely admit I'm no expert that is why I am here asking questions, because I don't know everything...And believe me I am getting educated... I have ridden at a canter in the E saddle before and like I said I kept loosing my balance. At this point it doesn't really bother me as I don't really know what I am doing there's a learning curve to everything and starting off by riding a little...finding out that you need to learn more...then trying to learn more isn't going to hurt anything.

Western riding is fairly easy for me as I feel secure in the saddle and I do everything in it...including cantering/galloping. I can get on and ride with out worrying about falling off...

Jumper12 & bsms thanks for your help and advice...English riding does feel differently. When I rode it seemed my legs were all ways going forward so I felt like I was in a chair... When I didn't put my feet into the stirrups I felt a lot more secure...

And to all...I do want to have fun!


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

Hey there OP.

I am learning English too. I've been riding western for about 9 years, and I'm probably pretty experienced - breaking, training, competing (roping/barrels) and about everything else. At that point, I felt like I needed more to do. More of a challenge, if you will. 

I ended up borrowing an English saddle. Like you, I've done a lot of bareback riding and jumping.

I had no problems with staying on the horse, but the technicalities were the hard part. Diagonals, keeping a good seat with my legs under me and my toes parallel to my horses sides ect... And keeping that solid lower leg in a canter - tough tough tough!

I just thought I'd post so you know that you aren't the only one on here that is teaching themselves (and a horse) English. 

I wanted to jump, so I set up a small cross rail. This was about my 6th or 7th ride English.






Best of luck to you! Pictures and stuff are reaaaally helpful to everyone!


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## EmilyJoy (Dec 30, 2011)

Thank you! I am glad I'm not the only one in that boat. 
Are you learning by yourself? Do you have any dvds/books that were really good?

Also my English saddle that I have has three strap like things to cinch up the saddle with, first I'm sure there is a name for these, and also the girth itself only has two straps to buckle/cinch up with...I used the outer two straps on the saddle connected to the girth with. Is this normal?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

The most forward 'billet' - the thing that the 'girth' attaches to - is a 'must buckle'. 

Your choice on which of the 2 billets (middle or rear) you attach the remained buckle to...outer 2 is probably pretty common. I used that arrangement today.


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## EmilyJoy (Dec 30, 2011)

Why is there three billets? is there actually a girth that has 3 buckles?


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

EmilyJoy said:


> Thank you! I am glad I'm not the only one in that boat.
> Are you learning by yourself? Do you have any dvds/books that were really good?
> 
> Also my English saddle that I have has three strap like things to cinch up the saddle with, first I'm sure there is a name for these, and also the girth itself only has two straps to buckle/cinch up with...I used the outer two straps on the saddle connected to the girth with. Is this normal?


For sure I'm learning by myself, kinda. I'm taking videos and getting critiques here.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

EmilyJoy said:


> Why is there three billets? is there actually a girth that has 3 buckles?



I was once told it's because if one breaks, you have another to use rather than being SOL.


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## LostDragonflyWings (Feb 1, 2012)

I started out taking western lessons, for about 2(?) months. Walk, trot, I don't think cantering, but trotting around barrel "patterns".

I wanted to eventually learn to jump, so I started going to an english stable and they continue their beginners in a western saddle. When I eventually switched into an english saddle, it was very weird and I remember that I kept trying to scoot back in the saddle. With practice and lessons, I eventually got used to it, learned proper trotting/posting, cantered, and was able to learn to jump.

I do agree that being able to take lessons is a major plus and better for safety, if you have a good/safe trainer, but I can also understand what it is like to be without a trainer for a longer period of time.

I have never really used videos or books to aid in riding, but one of my past trainers gave me the book "Centered Riding", which was a good book.

Centered Riding 85 Edition, Sally Swift (9780312127343) - Textbooks.com

I would recommend just getting used to the english saddle if you are not already. If you are having issues with the comfort of the stirrups, work without them for a while.... walking, trotting, etc. to help build up the muscle and get used to everything.

Also, definately consider posting some videos and/or pictures on this forum to get tips and suggestions. You can even PM some to me if you want.

Good luck!


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## EmilyJoy (Dec 30, 2011)

Thanks Everyone!!!!!
Skyangel that would make sense

lost dragon I'll do as you suggested Yeah I kinda feel like I'm pitching forward all the time...


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## Shropshirerosie (Jan 24, 2012)

EmilyJoy said:


> Why is there three billets? is there actually a girth that has 3 buckles?


There's three so that if one fails whilst you are flying around the countryside, galloping across muddy fields, you will be able to use the spare to re-secure your girth. 

My side saddle has a girth which uses two buckles, and a surcingle (over girth) which uses the third. I _think_ though I may be wrong, that historically astride saddles may have used a surcingle as well for extra security whilst galloping over the aforementioned field following the hounds.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

EmilyJoy said:


> Thanks Everyone!!!!!
> Skyangel that would make sense
> 
> lost dragon I'll do as you suggested Yeah I kinda feel like I'm pitching forward all the time...


You'll get it


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## EmilyJoy (Dec 30, 2011)

Does it matter that I'd be riding a Quarter horse or a Paint? I know they aren't really considered English horses, will there be a difference? Sophie's has a smooth trot and big Red's got a bouncy trot...

Another question, are you supposed to really rise out of the saddle when riding the trot? With western I just sit the trot... I know you're going to have to post(?) but how far should your seat come out of the saddle?


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## EmilyJoy (Dec 30, 2011)

DuffyDuck said:


> Hi there Emily
> 
> I know you say you have no access to an instructor.. is that just English, or western too? Both it's just me, my horse and what ever help I can get is from all of you and books/DVDs...
> 
> ...


Answers are in blue.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

EmilyJoy said:


> Does it matter that I'd be riding a Quarter horse or a Paint? I know they aren't really considered English horses, will there be a difference? Sophie's has a smooth trot and big Red's got a bouncy trot...
> 
> Another question, are you supposed to really rise out of the saddle when riding the trot? With western I just sit the trot... I know you're going to have to post(?) but how far should your seat come out of the saddle?


Dude, QH's and paints are all over the English world. They're mostly in the pleasure and HUS classes, but I've seen a few jumpers! I rode my team roping AQHA bulldog style mare english once. LOL it was...interesting

The AQHA world:


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## EmilyJoy (Dec 30, 2011)

Oh, I always figured it was mainly Thoroughbred horses or a type like them...My bad.. I thought I read somewhere that the judges didn't like paints because of their many colors...That kinda sounds stupid if it is true...You'd think the judges would judge them by performance...


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

EmilyJoy said:


> Does it matter that I'd be riding a Quarter horse or a Paint? I know they aren't really considered English horses, will there be a difference? Sophie's has a smooth trot and big Red's got a bouncy trot...
> 
> Another question, are you supposed to really rise out of the saddle when riding the trot? With western I just sit the trot... I know you're going to have to post(?) but how far should your seat come out of the saddle?


To post properly, your legs shouldn't move but continue to stretch down with your toe pointed up.. you should just be letting the horse's impulsion (or umph) lift you and then gravity brings you back down. Of course you don't want to SLAM back down, so you need to engage your core muscles and come down lightly. At first though if you want to stand up and sit down to help you get into the swing of things, you can.. it's just a hard habit to get out of IMOP.

Depending on impulsion, the trot, and the horse.. you can come out a lot, or a little. I usually see around 4-5 inches off of the saddle but that isn't a guideline to follow. Just post as you would.. and eventually you can better control how your body flows with the horse. Does that make sense??

Also.. my horse is a Dutch Warmblood/Paint X and he does wonderfully. Any horse can be ridden English IMOP. Just some are better suited for the disciplines that English consists of. Same with western


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## EmilyJoy (Dec 30, 2011)

Yeah, I think I understand now. Thanks, I'll see if I can try it when the weather's good enough to ride in... I asked because 1. I didn't know how people post. 2. because I've seen YouTube movies of people going up pretty high out of the saddle and looking to slam down again...And I thought that would be mighty uncomfortable for the horse!

The term I should have used was Sport horse...But well that could get off topic...  My opinion is that every horse can do any discipline as long as they're mentally & physically capable...They may not excel at it, which was what I meant when I asked if Paints do English... 
From the picture of Sophie in the user picture do you think she would make a nice English horse? Probably too "butt" high?


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## EmilyJoy (Dec 30, 2011)

QHriderKE said:


> Dude, QH's and paints are all over the English world. They're mostly in the pleasure and HUS classes, but I've seen a few jumpers! I rode my team roping AQHA bulldog style mare english once. LOL it was...interesting
> 
> Is that horse like really high strung in the first clip or is that just me?


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

EmilyJoy said:


> When I rode it seemed my legs were all ways going forward so I felt like I was in a chair... When I didn't put my feet into the stirrups I felt a lot more secure...


You might want to try a different saddle with the stirrup bars (the metal hangers where the stirrup leathers attach) farther back than the one you use now.

From what I have read, to avoid being in a chair seat (definitely wrong in an english saddle) the stirrup bars need to be around 6 inches in front of the deepest part of the seat.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

EmilyJoy said:


> Does it matter that I'd be riding a Quarter horse or a Paint? I know they aren't really considered English horses, will there be a difference? Sophie's has a smooth trot and big Red's got a bouncy trot...


Several english trainers (and riders) told me that my paint would make a nice eventer with some training (and (as said) she's a _paint_). I show my typical foundation qh in dressage shows (and she's not a dressagy type at all). As long as you and horse like what you are doing - who cares!


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## EmilyJoy (Dec 30, 2011)

You are totally right. 

Now I understand the method of posting, but how are you supposed hold the reins? Pictures are worth a 1,000 words...I know you are supposed to use indirect reining, meaning I think left rein turns left that is how Sophie turns...She isn't all that great at neck reining...


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

EmilyJoy said:


> You are totally right.
> 
> Now I understand the method of posting, but how are you supposed hold the reins? Pictures are worth a 1,000 words...I know you are supposed to use indirect reining, meaning I think left rein turns left that is how Sophie turns...She isn't all that great at neck reining...


Reins come in between pinky and ring finger and come out between thumb and index fingers. Hands held vertically (thumbs on top) above withers. When rising the trot, you open your elbows as you rise to keep from pulling on the horse's mouth. In fact, your arms have to be flexible at the elbows and shoulders at all times so that you can maintain constant contact no matter how your body or the horse's head moves.

Buy the book I recommended. Plenty of photos showing the right way to do things along with explanations. And some photos of the wrong way too.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

EmilyJoy said:


> From the picture of Sophie in the user picture do you think she would make a nice English horse? Probably too "butt" high?


Well I am not an expert on confirmation but I think you should give it a try  Every horse has their faults.. my horse is extremely withery amongst other things and we do great in English. One day we'll try Western too 

My horse is technically a "sport horse" but eh. 

You're right though, any kind of slamming hurts the horse and makes it very uncomfortable. Which is why it's better to exaggerate the motion at first until you understand it, and then work on minimizing the movements until you've only using the horse's momentum to rise and gravity softly brings you back down with use of your core muscles.

In my opinion anyway.

As for reins...


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

EmilyJoy said:


> From the picture of Sophie in the user picture do you think she would make a nice English horse? Probably too "butt" high?


She'll be just fine

Here's Calypso (with me on top). She's "butt high" as she is an Appendix QH, and in this older picture she wasn't working into contact well yet. However, she's taking contact extremely well now, her hind legs are tracking under her really well, and last Thursday she took the bit and rounded her topline like I've never seen her do. Sitting her trot was virtually effortless and it was almost hard to keep her contained she had so much energy and impulsion.

So yes, Quarter Horses can and do make excellent mounts for dressage, jumpers, cross country, and fox hunting


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## EmilyJoy (Dec 30, 2011)

Thanks everyone... 

Sky/angel That's the way I've held my reins when I am "pretending" to ride English...So I guess I'm not to far off the path in that one...

Mildot your horse is very pretty! And I'll check out the book...


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

Do a loooooot of trotting before anything else. It will reeeeally help with your core and just your balance in general, and it will help you find how you should be posting to suit what your horse is giving you.

It will take a lot of work, and the best way to learn is by just getting out there and riding until your body and horse are tired.


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## jinxremoving (Apr 6, 2009)

Here's a great video of the basics of the rising (posting) trot:


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

BTW - when posting, you don't need to come out of the seat like a jack-in-the-box, per the video. That is how my daughter posts, and it drives me nuts.

My goal, while posting, is to have my rump get clear of the saddle, but the crotch of my jeans still touching. I move more than that, but airing out one's crotch while posting is optional. Even if my daughter doesn't believe me...:evil:


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

There is no one right answer to how high one comes up off the saddle.

It all depends on the fit of the saddle, the length of the stirrups, the impulsion of the horse at the trot, and the conformation of the rider's legs.

What's most important is to not slam back down on the horse's back.

FWIW, this is about how far up I come off the saddle at the trot (never mind the wrong diagonal). I'm basically rolling up and fwd on my thighs and not standing on the stirrups.


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## jinxremoving (Apr 6, 2009)

bsms said:


> BTW - when posting, you don't need to come out of the seat like a jack-in-the-box, per the video. That is how my daughter posts, and it drives me nuts.
> 
> My goal, while posting, is to have my rump get clear of the saddle, but the crotch of my jeans still touching. I move more than that, but airing out one's crotch while posting is optional. Even if my daughter doesn't believe me...:evil:


Completely agree! Sorry, I should have mentioned that. When I first started posting I did rise as high out of the saddle as that girl and watching recent videos of myself I barely come out of the saddle - looks much more elegant and graceful. (The video is only good because it goes into slow motion and shows the mechanics of posting + diagonals.)


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## EmilyJoy (Dec 30, 2011)

QHriderKE said:


> Do a loooooot of trotting before anything else. It will reeeeally help with your core and just your balance in general, and it will help you find how you should be posting to suit what your horse is giving you.
> 
> It will take a lot of work, and the best way to learn is by just getting out there and riding until your body and horse are tired.


Yes, that makes sense. I also think it will help my horse get into condition...I've noticed that she is a little stiff, and,IMO, I think she needs her top line worked...I'll post pictures so you all can tell me what you think...

Another question, the length of the stirrup, some people say the length of your arm...Is that with your hand in a fist or with your fingers extended, or is there another way to tell?

Thanks all, this has really given me ideas!


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

Fingers extended.

Place tips of fingers on stirrup bar (the bar on the saddle where the stirrup leather hangs from) and the bottom of the stirrup should just reach your armpit.

Mount up and re-adjust after getting a feel for it.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

I want to emphasize that the stirrup length determination I explained is just a starting point. 

There is no reason you couldn't have them longer, within reason, for work on the flat. You can raise them up as you like later on.


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## EmilyJoy (Dec 30, 2011)

OK, will do...Is there an advantage to having them longer/shorter?


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## EmilyJoy (Dec 30, 2011)

Here's some of the pictures of Sophie...What do you think? I'm not saying conformation wise, although you can comment on her goods/bads if you want ( the pictures aren't very good for that though), I was thinking muscle-wise...Just as a side.. Do you think she would look better in English Tack or Western...?
























Other then that I think Most of my questions have been answered...Thank you!:wink:


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

EmilyJoy said:


> OK, will do...Is there an advantage to having them longer/shorter?


Longer stirrups are less tiring and make it easier to give leg aids.

Shorter stirrups make it easier to get on a two point position and jump fences.


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## EmilyJoy (Dec 30, 2011)

OK, Thanks


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## Shropshirerosie (Jan 24, 2012)

EmilyJoy said:


> OK, will do...Is there an advantage to having them longer/shorter?


Over here, you tend to see dressage riders riding long (ie with long stirrup leathers and almost straight legs, and eventers or hunters ride much shorter. The motto on the hunting field is 'Short stirrup Long Life'. Happy Hackers put their stirrup leathers whatever length they feel comfortable 

By the way, both videos I perused on this thread show the rider leaning forward quite a lot in trot. I don't know whether this is how they've been taught (in which case who am I to comment?), or whether they just haven't ironed out that as a problem yet. But I would say, try to keep a vertical line shoulder - hip - heel and avoid tipping forward. The rising motion in the trot happens with your pelvis rocking forwards, rather than your shoulders and whole torso shooting up and down. Have a browse round Youtube and the like; you should find plenty of videos from events in the UK.


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## EmilyJoy (Dec 30, 2011)

OK, I kind of think I know what you mean...I'll cruise the YouTube a bit & I'll check out mildots book... That should put me in a better light of everything...

Thanks!


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

Shropshirerosie said:


> By the way, both videos I perused on this thread show the rider leaning forward quite a lot in trot. I don't know whether this is how they've been taught (in which case who am I to comment?), or whether they just haven't ironed out that as a problem yet. But I would say, try to keep a vertical line shoulder - hip - heel and avoid tipping forward. The rising motion in the trot happens with your pelvis rocking forwards, rather than your shoulders and whole torso shooting up and down.


The rising while leaning fwd of the motion thing is an America affectation driven by the appearance needed to do well in show hunters.

I find such a technique to feel quite insecure and frankly unsuitable anywhere outside of a manicured arena. And even then, it only makes it harder to stay on a horse that stumbles, refuses, or evades in some way.

Regardless of the saddle that I am on (AP or dressage) or whether I am in the arena or out hacking, I post with my torso vertical and my pelvis rocking fwd and back. 

My rising trot may not win me any rave reviews from the show hunter crowd or the Littauer devotees, but I don't care. Rising the trot centered and vertically has saved from hitting the dirt more than once as my horse has stumbled on uneven footing.


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## Shropshirerosie (Jan 24, 2012)

mildot said:


> The rising while leaning fwd of the motion thing is an America affectation driven by the appearance needed to do well in show hunters.
> 
> Aah, how interesting. I wonder how that developed then. Is your Show Hunter class what we'd call Ridden Hunter, or is it a different discipline? (obviously - from what you have just explained to me, even if it claims to be the same, the styles are different!)
> 
> ...


My comments in blue, and thank you for this explanation.


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## EmilyJoy (Dec 30, 2011)

OK, so I went out and rode a couple times in the English saddle. Each time I rode I still felt like I was lurching forward...It was MUCH easier to sit the trot...Is it me or the horse..? I mean if a horse has a smooth trot will it make it more difficult to post vs the bouncier trot? something to do with the stirrups?


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## LostDragonflyWings (Feb 1, 2012)

A video of you trotting would really be helpful, but yes, a bouncier trot is generally more difficult to ride if you are not used to it.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

mildot said:


> ...My rising trot may not win me any rave reviews from the show hunter crowd or the Littauer devotees, but I don't care. Rising the trot centered and vertically has saved from hitting the dirt more than once as my horse has stumbled on uneven footing.


Just a note...I think Littauer would agree with you. IIRC, he argues you should never be ahead of the horse's motion, and that there are many times it is good to be a little behind. I don't want to go dig into my books right now, but I believe he suggests about 10 deg of forward lean in the trot. The big take-away I got from Littauer was that riding, unlike pictures, isn't static. Therefor, we should try to develop a feel for our horse, and constantly adjust to stay in fluid motion with the horse.

Exactly how one does it varies with the build of the horse, the rider, the saddle, what you are trying to do, etc - but once you feel yourself moving as one with the horse, that is 'right'. I used to focus on 'position' when I should have been focusing on balance and rhythm. I have short legs, tight hips and a stiff back, and I mostly ride narrow Arabians. So my position may vary from someone else in order to get in balance and in rhythm with my particular horse.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

EmilyJoy said:


> OK, so I went out and rode a couple times in the English saddle. Each time I rode I still felt like I was lurching forward...It was MUCH easier to sit the trot...Is it me or the horse..? I mean if a horse has a smooth trot will it make it more difficult to post vs the bouncier trot? something to do with the stirrups?


I suspect it has more to do with where your center of gravity (CG) is compared to your horse.

Western riding tends to put your CG well behind the horse's CG. That is good for western riding, because if you are roping, your weight helps to balance your horse when the line goes tight. Also, with my horses at least, I find getting my CG behind theirs makes it easier for them to swivel tightly, or to reverse directions quickly - stuff folks tend to do if trying to follow a steer.

I haven't ridden dressage, but my jump saddle, all purpose saddle and my Aussie-style saddles are all designed primarily for a horse moving forward. The horse's CG is roughly at the withers, although it changes with speed. So if I want to move with him, my CG needs to come forward. If it does, then my posting becomes like what mildot wrote - mostly just a spring unwinding, stretching me longer or shorter, but my balance point remains above my stirrups. Think of a coil spring - it gets longer or shorter, but it doesn't bend to do it. 

However, if my starting point is balanced BEHIND my horse's CG, then the only way I'll be balanced when stretched is if I come way forward, pushing my body (lurching) to get into 'position' before I come down (which is hard on the horse's back).

What you might try is riding in 2-point first. Hopefully the folks who ride English all the time can straighten out what I'll probably get wrong:

In a 2 point, your two points of contact are your two thighs. Your butt isn't actually in the saddle at all. You don't have to be 6 inches above the saddle. You just need to have no weight in your rump. It is kind of like standing in the stirrups, except that if I stand in the stirrups, my knees press into the side of the horse and create a pivot point that really screws me over.

Stirrups on the ball of the foot, heels down, knees far enough apart to allow weight to flow down to the heel, butt light or out of the saddle, body just slightly forward, but very slightly. If you haven't tried it before, then a horse that neck reins can be very nice, since you can keep the reins slack and not try to use them for balance. I practiced with a western saddle before trying it English, so I could use the horn to steady myself.

Then just ride around like that, working on your balance and rhythm. This position allows the saddle to pivot around the stirrup bars, which frees up the horse's back to move as much as the horse wants.

Once it feels right, think of it as being the position where the coil is stretched. Now let the coil collapse lightly, without changing your balance. That is the 'down' position. Now just stretch and relax the coil in rhythm with your horse, and you are posting.

I only had a few English lessons 30+ years ago before I quit riding, and haven't had any since I started up riding again 4 years ago. Right now, I probably use my Aussie-style saddle about 80% of the time, my western one about 15%, and only about 5% English - so take what I've written with a ton of salt.

Hopefully the real English riders on the forum will be able to correct anything I got too far wrong - but what I wrote has worked well for me.

BTW - I do post when riding western, but I accept that I will still be somewhat behind the horse's CG. But with the design of the saddle, that still works OK.


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## EmilyJoy (Dec 30, 2011)

I might try it with the western saddle to get the hang of it... And I'll try what you said. Maybe I just need more time in the saddle...

Another thing has anybody else had the stirrup leather pinch your leg between the leather and the saddle? I think it possible has to do with my riding, but I wanted to know if any body else had that problem.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Yes. Stirrup leathers can and do pinch. It hurts a lot lol. The reason it is pinching is because as you ride, your lower legs are moving around. Once you are more secure and your legs are quiet, you won't be pinched. All I can suggest is to make sure you are wearing jods or jeans that are thick enough to protect the inside of your leg until you are quiet enough in your seat to not need to worry about it.


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## EmilyJoy (Dec 30, 2011)

Ok, I thought maybe it was just me!


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