# Horse with horrible bit scar, what is he thinking?!?



## CowCow (Sep 6, 2016)

Hey guys! I just joined the forum because I could really use some outside opinions from riders of different styles & disciplines. I recently adopted a 10 year old rescue horse and am trying to guess what he was trained for in the past, as it would really help us communicate and further our current training. I am working with a trainer and we are making progress, but some outside advice would be very helpful. We were originally told he's a quarter horse, but my best guess is that he is an overweight thoroughbred lol. I ride mostly western so I don't know much when it comes to english disciplines but it looks like I might have to start learning!

The dentist came out and floated his teeth first thing, and found that he has a horrible bit scar across his tongue. We believe this might be the root of most of his issues. I tried bitless and had absolutely no brakes, so he's currently being ridden in my mare's full cheek french link happy mouth which seems comfortable for him. 

In the arena, he's (mostly) wonderful. We originally thought he was trained in dressage because of the way he carries himself: I have to keep constant rein contact to keep him from losing his mind, and he keeps his head tucked and almost prances when asked for a trot, and regardless of the scarring in his mouth he seems comfortable. I ride my mare with a loose rein and she's fantastic with just leg pressure, but that's not the case with this guy! He isn't spooky and can be walked over tarps, mattresses, pretty much anything without a problem. He has excellent ground manners and will stop with just a "whoah" ....in the arena. 

The problem begins out on the trails. The trails are what makes me think either he was a race horse, or was never ridden outside of an arena. In the arena, we can w/t/c without much issue; on a trail, we walk, trot, gallop. There is no canter, and we end up doing many, many circles. We went out today, my trainer on him and myself riding my mare, and I had to constantly block their path to keep him from bolting across a field. Tight circles just don't work with him like they should. It obviously prevents forward motion, but it seems to make him more excited as he starts hopping and I'm almost afraid he's going to fall over. He just wants to GO, so most of our rides consist of making him just walk, and he gets a release and permission to trot as a reward. But his gallop is just mindless and we can't figure out why. In no way does he seem to want to harm his rider, he acts like this is what he is trained to do.

So, if you made it through my novel, I thank you. Really my two questions are: 
1. If you've worked with a horse with bit scarring, how did it effect your riding and what kind of bit did you use? 
2. What type of discipline/training do you think could explain his behavior? Our best guesses are ex-racehorse (explains the galloping), barrel horse (wanting to bolt into the open), or dressage (never ridden outside of an arena). This is just part of the fun of adopting a rescue and knowing nothing about their past, everyday is a new exciting challenge :runninghorse2:


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

CowCow said:


> 1. If you've worked with a horse with bit scarring, how did it effect your riding and what kind of bit did you use?
> 2. What type of discipline/training do you think could explain his behavior? Our best guesses are ex-racehorse (explains the galloping), barrel horse (wanting to bolt into the open), or dressage (never ridden outside of an arena).


Which came first, the chicken or the egg? In my experience, it may not be that this horse was in a discipline that made him hot, but more likely he has a hot personality. Since these horses often end up with owners that don't know how to handle that type of personality, things occur to make it worse such as using a bit so strong it cut his tongue. 

Often these horses have a first response of wanting to race and run in the open, and that is something they have naturally. I am guessing you're right that he is green about being ridden out in the open, and it is exciting for him. That is more likely than that he has been taken out and raced a lot. Even hot bloods tend to become less excited about running if they practice it more. 

He does sound like he has one of the fairly common Thoroughbred type minds. This type is often not spooky, but loves to work and gets excited and forward about going fast and running. 

We have a horse at our barn with a tongue that has a huge scar from a bit. He is a very mellow horse, so I'm not sure how this ever happened to him. He also goes fine in a snaffle. I'd say if a bit doesn't seem to bother the horse, then you should be fine. It sounds like you're testing the bit in the arena with pressure, so it shouldn't feel different to the horse on the trail. However, I'd probably always use a bit with tongue relief and/or avoid a double jointed snaffle or one that works more on the tongue rather than the bars.

In my experience, there are horses that get more calm by going in circles and horses that get worked up by going in circles. It's important to find the approach that works for each individual horse. Having spent many months trying to calm hot horses with circles and just going slow, I haven't found that this creates a horse that is calm when going faster. Neither does more arena work. What you end up with is a horse that walks calmly, excels in the arena, but still can't go faster and be controlled when out on the trail. It doesn't excite an excitable horse to walk, so they are calm. It's the running that gets their adrenaline going and gets them excited. 

I've learned to manage hot horses by treating them as a boiling pot. You lift the lid and let off a little steam, and this keeps the pot from boiling over. These horses do better if you teach them to run safely, and then slow when you ask. In order to do this, you have to find something that will get their attention when they are very excited, and often this is not a snaffle even if they go fine in one in an arena. You might try a mechanical hackamore (you don't say what type of bitless you used, but many are less strong than a snaffle). I use one on my mare and she goes very well in it. It has the leverage to get her attention if she ever gets too excited. However, you always have to remember that if the horse is very excited you don't want to try to get tight control, but rather to manage the speed and direction until the horse can listen and become more calm. Let some steam off but keep a lid on it. As the horse gets more experienced, these things will become less exciting and you will have more control.

Rather than trying to block the horse or circle him, create areas where you trot out and do short little runs, but only once you've found a bridle that will make the horse listen without being too harsh. It's a balance because putting on something too strong will make the horse feel trapped, and that's like putting the lid down on the boiling pot again. It can help the horse at first to have areas where they know they will be able to get some energy off. Walk to this hill, canter up it, then trot for a quarter mile on the straight. Things like that so the horse feels like they are getting a release of energy. This makes the energy become much more manageable. The more the horse works in a gait and practices listening to the rider, the more control you will have in the long run.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I doubt the horse was ever trained in any discipline, correctly, but rather ridden by someone who used a bit harshly, for control. 
A horse over bridles and prances, often because he is afraid of that bit, getting often behind the vertical to try and protect his mouth, and prancing because he has not learned to relax. For a horse to relax, he has to trust the hands on those reins
You need to either go bittless or use a bit that gives tongue relief, like a snaffle with a small port
Forget about working him at speed, or even just riding on the straight. At the moment, he needs to learn body control, to relax, working in circles, turning over the haunches, using your legs effectively, showing him that when he is going correctly, giving softly in his entire body, you in turn will leave his mouth alone


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## CowCow (Sep 6, 2016)

Gottatrot: Thank you so much, the boiling pot is a great analogy! I never really considered that it could just be a hot personality, I've been so focused on trying to find out what kind of training could make him act like this. That could definitely explain the bit scarring, poor guy! I'm also wondering if he could have a deficiency, such as magnesium, contributing to his attitude. He was checked by a vet before we ever rode him, but we didn't think to check anything beyond making sure he wasn't lame or sick and at risk of contaminating my other horses. I think a good supplement and maybe some Smart Calm won't hurt. 

The bitless bridle I used was just a noseband, it doesn't have any type of mechanical leverage. I always try to ride in a "gentle" bit if any, but I understand that any bit can be harsh depending on the hands behind it. Maybe a hackamore will be worth a try so I can keep contact, but not put pressure on the tongue. I want to let some steam off the pot but we need to have definite brakes first! 

Thank you for helping me see a different perspective on his attitude. I'm going to feel so dumb if all he needs is to get a good run out of his system! lol


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## CowCow (Sep 6, 2016)

Smilie: Thank you. I definitely believe his previously rider was controlling, not communicating, with him. We tried a snaffle with no luck, but it was also very soon after I got him so there probably wasn't enough trust between us yet. Who knows what the poor guy has been through. I have several rescues and some settle in right away, others are more cautious before relaxing in their new home. I'm thinking a bitless hackamore will be the way to go until I can get him responsive to leg. Hopefully with time, patience, and lots of ground work he will learn to relax and trust.


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

If he was a racehorse in the past, it could be the scarring you see on his tongue was from a too-tight tongue tie versus a bit.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

First and fore most, don't worry about his past. Focus on the horse you are dealing with now.
It is hard to say what might work in his mouth without actually seeing the damage but I would start on getting in his head. Work on getting control over him by getting him to focus on you rather than ignoring when he gets somewhere new or gets excited. That comes with training, time and wet saddle blankets.


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## EliRose (Aug 12, 2012)

If he was a racehorse who ran he'd have a lip tat.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

CowCow said:


> Hey guys! I just joined the forum because I could really use some outside opinions from riders of different styles & disciplines.


Is this because your trainer also only knows about western & doesn't 'get' him, or...?



> as it would really help us communicate and further our current training. ...
> don't know much when it comes to english disciplines but it looks like I might have to start learning!


Regardless of how the horse has been trained in the past, you don't have to start riding him that way... unless you want to. Just means you might have to start with the basics before you work up to what you want to be doing... which to me, sounds like the case whichever 'style' of training he's had.



> I tried bitless and had absolutely no brakes, so he's currently being ridden in my mare's full cheek french link happy mouth which seems comfortable for him.


I personally like to ensure every horse is started & going well in a halter/bitless before being ridden in a bit. If they can't do that, can't ride on a loose rein, but need the force of a bit to control them, I see this as some pretty major 'holes' in training that I'd want to address, regardless of what I had in mind for the horse down the track. 

So saying... If he's truly happy & relaxed with the bit & so are you, no burning need to change it, but your trainer should have explained to you that to just 'try bitless' without preparation, esp on a horse it sounds like you don't know well yet & has 'issues', is not the best way to approach it.



> I have to keep constant rein contact to keep him from losing his mind,


Again, I'd see that as a pretty major shortfall in his training. I'd want to start with the very basics & teach him how to *relax* with a rider, without constant rein pressure.



> The problem begins out on the trails. The trails are what makes me think either he was a race horse, or was never ridden outside of an arena


Or raced on trails. Or never gotten confident with being out. Or just far from confident when out with you yet. While I'd be working on his other 'hangups' before going out, getting his trust & confidence at home first, I'd also put a good 'one rein stop' on him, and then start with short, slow trips out, that don't blow his mind. Teach him first to go on a loose rein, and take him out at a walk, maybe a little trotting, and get him confident & relaxed about that before even contemplating faster paces.



> Tight circles just don't work with him like they should. It obviously prevents forward motion, but it seems to make him more excited as he starts hopping


They 'should' only be reliable if he's been trained to do so, and he is relaxed/programmed enough to do it. It sounds like he's so wound up, trying to force him to do circles is just adding fuel to the fire at present.



> most of our rides consist of making him just walk, and he gets a release and permission to trot as a reward.


Absolutely he should be getting lots of 'releases', so he can learn what you want of him. I wouldn't be allowing him to trot as reward for walking when asked tho - just confirming the 'go' switch!



> 1. If you've worked with a horse with bit scarring, how did it effect your riding and what kind of bit did you use?


I have. I didn't use a bit. As said though, I start/restart every horse in a halter/bitless, so I don't need to use the bit(if/when it comes) for control.



> 2. What type of discipline/training do you think could explain his behavior? Our best guesses are ex-racehorse (explains the galloping), barrel horse (wanting to bolt into the open), or dressage (never ridden outside of an arena).


There's no reason to think he's necessarily any of the above. A thrashed trail horse could be more likely. Doesn't really matter though.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

gottatrot said:


> That is more likely than that he has been taken out and raced a lot. Even hot bloods tend to become less excited about running if they practice it more.


You reckon?? Not in my experience. Often they're 'hot' & want to run out of nervousness, rather than just 'excitement' & IME, many 'hot' horses will want to run more, the more you allow/encourage them to. If it's allowed too much, esp if the horse hasn't first learned how to *relax* under a rider, it becomes the default setting.

I usually agree with you Gotta, but IME, often riding 'spoiled' horses, thrashed trail horses for eg. your 'boiling pot' idea would just end up adding fuel, making it boil harder, so to speak. Especially if there is any nervousness about it - fast work adds adrenaline/reduces thinking ability. As always, I think 'it depends' & different tactics do work for different horses. Just without further info, I wouldn't think just changing bridles, without proper training prep, and allowing the horse to 'run off some steam', without proper training prep is the answer here.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Agree with Loosie, as my former post indicates
Relaxation in mind and body,with the horse ridden more out of bit response , through conditioning, and body control, versus any mechanical advantage of that bit , before it will ever be there and stay there in fast work.
That is what allows, for instance, a reiner to gallop into the rundown, building speed, then shut down and stop when asked, on a loose rein, or to go from running a fast circle to a slow small circle-again, just out of body control
The only time I ever used the idea of , well, if they want to run, let them, until they cry 'uncle, was once on a horse that was given to me to re-sell for a friend, as the horse was too hot for their daughter, who they had bought the horse for
The horse had been gamed, and would bolt. I was loping him in a plowed field, after the crops were off, and he decided to bolt. A couple of laps around that field in the deep footing, and he was looking to slow. A few more laps, and then allowed to stop-he never tried to bolt on me again
That is a different scenerio , then a horse uptight, with evidence of past bit abuse, thus has learned to obviously get in a pulling match with the rider, and the more you hang on to such a horse to slow him, the more up tight he gets, gives him something to lean against, and also gets him in flight mode, versus thinking mode
I have trail ridden with such horses, with the owner holding them back with tight rein contact, with the horse then getting more on the muscle, over bridled and prancing.I Have even ridden such a horse, and no fun, as when they get in that mode, they don't care where they place their feet, even coming off a mountain!
Get the slow, the relaxat ion in mind and body first. As the old saying goes, you can always speed ahorse up, but much more difficult to slow a horse that has never learned to go slow and relaxed


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I think its more likely that he's a horse that's never been ridden outside of an arena than he's an OTTB (already said but look for the lip tattoo) 
It's possible that someone tried to take him out and he got away from them so has now learnt that he can
Horses that aren't used to the great outdoors often get over excited, either nervous excitement or just plain 'need to run' excitement. The more they get out there the less exciting it becomes
I would never ever run a horse into the ground to teach it not to try to run.
The tongue scar might not have been caused by a bit - I had a mare that managed to bite her own tongue when standing in her stable - she launched an attack at a horse going past and bit her tongue in the process, it left a deep scar. She was never hard to hold or unresponsive to a bit yet she was very forward going and excitable.
If the horse is responsive to nose pressure you could try a mechanical hackamore or something like a Kineton noseband that puts pressure on the nose as well as on the mouth
Unfortunately with a horse that gets too buzzy holding them back by some means can result in rearing and leaping which is worse than having them jig/prance. Circling them just makes them more frustrated and hyper, they don't have the temperament for that stuff
When I've had horses and ponies that were borderline dangerous out of an arena because they got too worked up about it I always found that leading them off another horse (riderless) for a while helped more than anything else did


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

You might also consider a mild curb bit like a Billy Allen:








​ 
A horse who stretches his head out can easily ignore a snaffle, while the rotating action of a curb means the rider gets to choose when the release comes. Another potential advantage is that it requires training the horse to curb bit cues from the beginning, and that can automatically fill in training holes. Teach the horse to yield to pressure (lateral and vertical) while standing next to it:






When you can get the response you want with finger pressure standing beside the horse, work with it at a walk in the arena. When he is good at a walk, start work at a trot. When you have a good stop at a trot in the arena, try a canter.

Then try walks outside the arena. Good stops take practice, and a good stop outside the arena is different from inside it. Then try trots, etc.

But some horses will always view going fast outside the arena totally different from going fast inside one. Doing what I described above taught Mia how to STOP when going fast outside the arena, but it never taught to her stop being so competitive with other horses or even that going fast was not intoxicating by itself. But it did, at least, give me the option to stop her...:icon_rolleyes:

The Kineton noseband looks interesting, but my current horse stops and slows easily enough in a snaffle that I can't justify the price to try it! But it looks like it could work well...never even heard of one before.

BTW - my current horse was used for informal endurance racing common to the Four Corners region. He does fine as long as there isn't a horse to challenge him. If another horse is going fast, though....hmmm...maybe I could justify trying the Kineton noseband.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Well, what I found works, far as a horse getting 'buzzy' out of an arena, is to get them 'broke' first, which means something beyond just going forward, at all three gaits
We have not seen a video of this horse going, and while the tongue injury MIGHT be due to some injury other than a bit, a horse that over bridles, which the OP has confused with dressage training, prances, gets up tight, to me is very suspicious of a horse ridden incorrectly in a bit, having some idiot use a severe bit for control, or even a snaffle, which has the ability to inflict quite a bit of tongue damage, due to it's very design.
I have seen such a horse, with severe tongue damage, due to the way it was ridden. The 'trainer', had that horse doing a western riding pattern,, getting those lead changes, but using a severe bit, tight contact, and with that horse riding 'very protective of it's mouth'
Sent to another well respected trainer, the tongue damage was very evident
To be clear, I do not subscribe to riding a horse 'into the ground' I used it once, on a horse brought to me to 'fix;, a week before a sale, that bolted
THat would never be the long range plan, if I had that horse for a month or so, to re -train, as I am a firm believer that if you have that body control first, on any horse, before riding out, you never need to resort to the mechanical advantage of any devise on their head, as you have gotten 'into their head first', and that is the only type of horse I now especially wish to ride out-one that has a mental conditioning to any bit or any head gear, be it a mechanical hackamore or otherwise
Thus, forget the bit for now. Go back to basics and fill in holes. Get body control
While I might use curbs to ride horses out, because they are very comfortable just packing that bit on a loose rein , I would never want to ride out a horse, that /needed that curb, that mechanical hackamore, or whatever
If you can't ride a horse out in a plain snaffle, on a loose rein, the horse is not broke in my books.
All those special hackamores, nosewbaNDS, I have never needed, or even heard of, as I don't think any equipment is the answer in this case, but basic good training is, as with any horse.
Any good trainer I know, if they get in a problem horse, goes back to the plain snaffle, to fill those holes
Do other than that, and all you are doing is patching holes, much like that little Dutch boy that stuck a finger in a hole in the dam!
I don't know why the empathizes is on giving advise on head gear, bittless or otherwise, when the answer lies in good basic training, before riding this horse out, providing the tongue damage does not require tongue relief


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

For what it's worth, if you try a mechanical hackamore, I'd use a short shank English style one.
I have a senior mare with a "lot of forward go" and she works well in her hack.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

BSMS, you can post all the videos you wish, to justify using a curb , on a horse that is first not solid in a snaffle, but I will tell you that the horse was never ridden by someone that understands how to use a snaffle correctly, adjust it correctly, and how to put great basics on a horse
A horse should know how to do everything ever asked of him, in a snaffle first, before going on to a curb-graduating to it for refinement

Here is a good video on snaffles, that wil lclear up so many mis conceptions, due to improper application


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

BSMS"
A horse who stretches his head out can easily ignore a snaffle, while the rotating action of a curb means the rider gets to choose when the release comes. Another potential advantage is that it requires training the horse to curb bit cues from the beginning, and that can automatically fill in training holes. Teach the horse to yield to pressure (lateral and vertical) while standing next to it:"

Sorry, wrong. A snaffle has direct action, designed to teach to teach lateral movement, by direct action. A curb is NOT designed to teach that, as is any other leverage devise.
Sure, you can teach basic lateral and vertical flexion on the ground, using a snaffle or just a halter.
You always teach a horse to wait for that release, right from the time he is started in a snaffle , versus demanding it, by pulling, being resistant. It is horse training 101 ! Teach the basic concept on the ground, then get on and ride, using legs and that snaffle correctly


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## Prairie (May 13, 2016)

This horse needs to be taken back to the ground and restarted as if he's never been handled before, looking for the holes in his training and get each one filled before moving on. The work on lunging, ground driving, and manners when handled, again filling in those holes. Only after he's soft and responsive to cues on the ground do you introduce a saddle, and once again, proceed as if he's never been saddled before.


As far as the "I tried bitless and had absolutely no brakes", you need to understand that the reins connected to either a bit or a bitless device are neither the steering nor the brakes---the reins are to refine the line of communication. Brakes and steering are from using your seat, weight, legs, and core to cue the horse correctly to perform the maneuver you wish. That's where are the ground work come into play---teaching the horse to move away from pressure and to be soft and responsive to your changes in body position.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

'Mostly' wonderful in the arena doesn't sound like a horse that's had no training
A lot of 'hot' horses are used to being held in contact if they've been ridden 'english' and some do develop a bad habit of thinking a loose rein means 'go faster'. 
I would think this horse hasn't done any recent dressage training if any at all because it would know to 'seek the contact' and lower the head and stretch as you lengthened the reins rather than see it as a signal to go
The prancing in the arena could just be because your leg cues are harder than he's used too or you're gripping or tensing your lower legs too much and even that is coming over as a signal to go
Lungeing could be a good place to start because you can teach voice cues for whoa, steady and walk to use alongside your normal one's


bsms - the Kineton is great for a horse that can get a little forward and needs a reminder at times to slow it down but doesn't do well for too much pressure on its mouth.
It's rather on the same thought wave as using something that gives poll pressure combined with bit pressure like a Cheltenham Gag so you're spreading things around 50/50 rather than putting 100 in one place
Mechanical hackamores are great for horses that react badly to a bit - sometimes past associations leave huge mental scars that you can't remove. I've had horses that you couldn't hold in any bit due to some past abuse that were wonderful in a hackamore. I do like the English and Stubben hackamores and the Beetle is working really well on K - also has very short shanks for slightly more brakes though we have a thick sheepskin on the noseband


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I can't really add anything new to the discussion of his training beyond working on his body control and get him paying attention to you instead of constantly just wanting to gogogogo.


As for the scar on his tongue, that isn't _always_ an indicator of abuse or improper bit usage. A lot of times it is, but not always. My gray horse, who has never been ridden by anyone outside my family, has a scarred tongue. I don't use harsh bits and I'm careful to work on a horse's training so that I don't have to get forceful with them. His happened during a fall. We were working cattle and had to try to catch some that were running off. We were sprinting flat out when he found a hole and went @$$ over teakettle. I got a little smashed when he landed on me but he seemed fine except for the blood running out of his mouth.

After he healed up though, he didn't have any issue at all with the same bit he was ridden in before.


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## EliRose (Aug 12, 2012)

Frankly, I find it asinine to suggest a curb bit in this situation. Just sticking a curb on doesn't "automatically fill in training holes."


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

phantomhorse13 said:


> If he was a racehorse in the past, it could be the scarring you see on his tongue was from a too-tight tongue tie versus a bit.


I guess there must be more than one sort of tongue tie? I was interested in them so had a trainer show me how they do them when we were visiting the racing barn, they used soft material, I couldn't see that scarring.

Also if he was a racehorse they are used to contact meaning go faster, it takes a while to change that training.


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

If he were mine I'd consider putting him in a traditional hackamore treat him like a green broke horse. From the sounds of it, regardless of his experience he isn't what I would call "broke".


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

EliRose said:


> Frankly, I find it asinine to suggest a curb bit in this situation. Just sticking a curb on doesn't "automatically fill in training holes."


Perhaps you ought to try reading what I wrote, then:

"*it requires training the horse to curb bit cues from the beginning*, and *that *can automatically fill in training holes"

As far as asinine...it has worked well for me and for some others. So I made a suggestion. You don't like it? Fine. But please do not distort what I said...


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## Prairie (May 13, 2016)

bsms said:


> Perhaps you ought to try reading what I wrote, then:
> 
> "*it requires training the horse to curb bit cues from the beginning*, and *that *can automatically fill in training holes"QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Prairie said:


> When I transition a horse from a snaffle to a curb, it sure doesn't automatically fill in training holes----those holes are still there regardless of what bit is used. All too many ride horse using only their hands for control when correct riding combines the natural aids of seat, weight, core, and legs to cue the horse with the reins only used to refine the communication.


Quite, Prairie, as @EliRose it IS asinine to think that a curb magically fixes anything. A horse should be solid in a snaffle before transitioning to a curb, because that transition should also be the rider moving from using some contact, to very little contact...


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

Prairie said:


> bsms said:
> 
> 
> > Perhaps you ought to try reading what I wrote, then:
> ...


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## Prairie (May 13, 2016)

LOL, @Golden Horse, I'm still looking for that Magical bit that fixes everything. 


The reality is that many bits are misused and become torture devices in the name of training. Training is not using a bigger, harsher bit, it's teach the horse the correct response to the various pressure points used, rewarding him by the release of the pressure, with the aim of a horse who is soft and responsive regardless of what is hanging on his head.


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## EliRose (Aug 12, 2012)

bsms said:


> Perhaps you ought to try reading what I wrote, then:
> 
> "*it requires training the horse to curb bit cues from the beginning*, and *that *can automatically fill in training holes"
> 
> As far as asinine...it has worked well for me and for some others. So I made a suggestion. You don't like it? Fine. But please do not distort what I said...


The other ladies explained, but yeah I misread nothing.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I'm struggling to see how anyone can make any judgements on how well (or not) this horse has been trained without actually sitting on it themselves. Even a video isn't going to really tell you something like that
I'm pretty sure that if most of the members here were to try to ride Carl Hester's Olympic horse Nip Tuck they'd end up in a deep mess because it takes a very skilled and in tune rider to handle some horses - has nothing at all to do with holes in training. 
I wouldn't want to say that a horse that gets excitable on the trails because its not used to them had holes in its training in an arena environment because I haven't seen it perform in one and certainly never ridden it myself because you can only get a horse used to dealing with something new by taking it somewhere new
I've seen bombproof steady eddie kid's ponies turn into fire breathing dragons on their first days hunting and need a Pelham or something stronger for extra brakes till they get used too it
Many showjumpers and eventing riders use a stronger bit for jumping/cross country than the one they usually ride in
Is that also asinine?
One of our 'owners' when I worked with horses used to hunt her horse in an American gag - she was a weekend rider and couldn't hold him in anything else, the rest of us rode him in a snaffle and he was trained well enough to win a lot of dressage classes and Working Hunter classes so 'no holes' anywhere, he just needed some extra brakes at times 
I can't call bsms' suggestion to use a curb bit asinine because for all we know the horse might have previously been ridden in one for the longest time so it's what he's used too


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## Prairie (May 13, 2016)

It's not the suggest of using a curb bit that's being questioned......it's the statement that using a curb bit will fix holes in the horse's training automatically. That simply is not true!


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## EliRose (Aug 12, 2012)

jaydee said:


> I'm struggling to see how anyone can make any judgements on how well (or not) this horse has been trained without actually sitting on it themselves. Even a video isn't going to really tell you something like that
> I'm pretty sure that if most of the members here were to try to ride Carl Hester's Olympic horse Nip Tuck they'd end up in a deep mess because it takes a very skilled and in tune rider to handle some horses - has nothing at all to do with holes in training.
> I wouldn't want to say that a horse that gets excitable on the trails because its not used to them had holes in its training in an arena environment because I haven't seen it perform in one and certainly never ridden it myself because you can only get a horse used to dealing with something new by taking it somewhere new
> I've seen bombproof steady eddie kid's ponies turn into fire breathing dragons on their first days hunting and need a Pelham or something stronger for extra brakes till they get used too it
> ...


IMO a curb is a completely different situation. If the horse was hacking around one handed, yeah maybe they've been in a curb. And a horse trained in a curb, going Western, should _always_ be able to go back into a snaffle, because that's what they were broke with.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

I think there is a huge difference between the examples you have given @jaydee and what the rest of us are talking about. In English circles bitting up is an accepted part of life, if a horse is going cross country, hunting, anything where they might get strong, then reaching for a little more is quite accepted, doesn't fill in any training holes, just gets the job done.

In western there is, or always was less thought of bitting up, a horse is solid in the snaffle before going into a curb, because the rider is not using the curb as a 'bigger' bit but as a more refined bit.

The fact remains a curb will not fill in anything.....


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I disagree, Prairie, although I thank you for for your post.

Why do I disagree?

A horse who knows snaffle evasions retains that knowledge. A curb bit has a very different feel. A snaffle pulls in a linear motion toward the hands of the rider. A curb bit ROTATES - initially around the mouthpiece and then, when the curb strap tightens, around the top of the shank.

"nor does it work on the horse's jaw and poll as a vice"

Neither does a curb bit. Because it ROTATES around the top of the shank, it continues to apply pressure against the bars and tongue INSTEAD of raising up in the mouth and going against the molars. A horse can learn to give himself "relief" using a snaffle, but that technique ("A horse who stretches his head out can easily ignore a snaffle" - my original post on this thread) does not bring relief with a curb. 

In my original post, I made the point "_Teach the horse to yield to pressure (lateral and vertical) while standing next to it:_" and gave a video showing a way to do that with lateral flexing. The same technique works for teaching vertical flexing in response to the curb bit. Then teach the correct responses at a walk. When good at a walk, try a trot, and gradually move up in speed.

Since the bit has a different feel and different mode of operation - rotation versus linear motion - at least SOME horses take it as a new thing to learn. And as a new thing to learn, it doesn't carry over the baggage of whatever they learned in the snaffle.

It can also work if someone uses a sidepull or other bitless option with a horse who is resisting a snaffle. Depending on what form the resistance takes, that starting over with a different feel can create a "New Day / New Learning" situation.

The reins are NOT only for refined communication. They become about refined communication only AFTER control is established. The reins and bit are initially about control. Once control is established, they THEN can be reserved for refined communication.

However, if a horse is seriously competitive, you can probably forget about using your seat to stop them IN A COMPETITIVE SITUATION. My horse Bandit is an example. Ask him to canter by himself on a trail, and he'll cheerfully stop from the seat. He doesn't find speed, by itself, intoxicating. But ask him just to TROT beside another horse, and he reverts to his racing days. At that point, the horse who will slow and stop to a whispered "Easy" will fight the bit - because he WANTS to do something different.

"_ It makes no difference what bit is in the horse's mouth if he understands how to work off the natural aids_."

Again, the horse is a living creature with a mind of its own and desires of its own. A competitive horse - and Mia and Bandit both seem to have been bred for that, and Mia's competitiveness is WHY Bandit's previous owner wanted her for a brood mare - a competitive horse with a chance to race takes over. It is as much in their breeding as herding is in my Border Collie's breeding.

That isn't a bad thing, just as my Border Collie's herd instinct is not bad. It can be a good thing, or a bad one. But if a horse loves running, or loves competing, then the seat aids are like spitting in the ocean! The horse knows what you want, but doesn't care! And at that point, then a bit and the reins once again can be about control.

In any case, I wrote "_You might also consider a mild curb bit like a Billy Allen_" because SOME horses respond very well to curb bits, particularly since the OP comes from a western riding background. MIGHT...CONSIDER. It worked very well for retraining Mia. Bandit does well in a curb, even a Tom Thumb, but much of our riding is picking our way across country in the desert, and I like using a snaffle better with Bandit. But the bit I posted a picture of was Mia's all time favorite bit. She was calmer, more responsive and more eager with it than with any snaffle I tried with her - and I tried about 20 of them.

It was JUST a suggestion based on something that worked well for me. I have also had others contact me and tell me it had worked well for them. But it is totally up to the OP how to proceed. I'm not there. I've never seen her horse, or her riding the horse. It was offered as 'This worked well for me' - and nothing else.



Golden Horse said:


> ...The fact remains a curb will not fill in anything.....





Prairie said:


> ...it's the statement that using a curb bit will fix holes in the horse's training automatically. That simply is not true!





EliRose said:


> The other ladies explained, but yeah I misread nothing.


Sigh. The fact remains, I did not in any way suggest "_Just sticking a curb on_"...


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

And I repeat - for all we know this horse has been ridden in a curb bit before and one handed and is more used to that than being ridden in direct contact in a snaffle
The OP thinks it might have raced, thinks it might have done dressage but in truth hasn't a clue what it's done before - it might have been a saddleseat horse and they're a different thing to ride altogether
The truth is we don't know because the OP doesn't know either
The horse might have no holes at all (no disrespect to the OP intended) but just maybe it needs a rider who knows how to ride it.
We bought Jazzie through an agent who's only ever ridden Western and he's very good at it too, she's only ever been ridden English dressage style and he made a complete 'pig's ear' of trying to put her through her paces and was big enough to admit that he hadn't a clue what he was doing
I rode an Arabian x saddlebred horse that was only trained to saddleseat and made a mess of that - probably looked a bit like the OP's rescue horse prancing around with no brakes (that I knew how to work) and its head in a dressage type frame


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## Prairie (May 13, 2016)

However, most horses, regardless of discipline, are started in a snaffle so they should be familiar and responsive to it even though the horse is currently in or has been ridden for year in a curb. When I had cattle, my ranch horses were usually ridden in snaffles on days we were only counting noses and checking them over. Curbs were their signal that they got to boss the cattle around and were going to work. However, it didn't matter what bit was in their mouths, they were soft and responsive and did the job that was being asked for. Of course those horses worked off the natural aids so the bits were only to refine the lines of communication.


By definition, a curb bit has leverage and because it does rotate in the horse's mouth, that engages the vice effect of the curb chain contacting the chin groove and the bridle itself pulling down on the poll. The force of the hands is also multiplied, depending on the length of the shank and the purchase.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

It's true that every horse is supposedly started in a snaffle and therefore should understand direct rein signals. However, I've ridden several Arabs and Saddlebreds that were started in snaffles but with side reins on with their trainers focusing on saddleseat. These horses were never taught to bend laterally very well, since the focus on that discipline is different, and the trainers didn't teach them to be able to bend around their body to avoid a tree on the trail, for example, but just to go around an arena rail. When I put these horses back into a snaffle, they had to learn how to direct rein and bend through the body, although they rode nicely in an arena in a double bridle. 

My advice earlier was assuming the horse has basic training and goes well in a snaffle, per the OPs statement that the horse appears well trained in the arena, is not spooky, and follows signals well. It is also based on the information that the OP has rescued and restarted other horses without difficulty. So I am assuming this horse is different, perhaps has a more Thoroughbred type brain, and this is why the puzzle.

I believe it is a common misconception that the ability to control a horse when out in an exciting environment is solely based on the training the horse has had. I also restart horses that are new to me, and get them solid in the arena first. For many horses, this will translate directly into a solid ride on the trail. But other horses must also learn how to be manageable out in the open, and it is a different training situation that does not transfer directly from the earlier work that was done. 

In these situations, the horse may go out in a snaffle just fine, even hotbloods. It depends mainly on the strength of their will. For example, the super fast OTTB I ride out with regularly goes fine in a snaffle. She is very hot when not allowed to run, but she has learned to be patient and to wait for her rider to give her the opportunity, and has a compliant mind to stop when asked. My mare is smaller, less fast but has more strength of will and requires some leverage when she gets competitive. She also is communicative, compliant, sweet, but she has to believe you could "make" her if you wanted to or she will take full advantage. 

Some who give advice may not regularly ride a variety of Thoroughbreds and other hotbloods out in those environments. I am guessing this because I once believed that if a horse could not be controlled in a snaffle, that it was a training fault. I also believed that excitement bred excitement, as others have said. This becomes a problem if you ride those very excitable types, because you can spend innumberable hours tuning up the most beautiful responses in the arena and on easy rides around a property where the horse goes lovely for you and stops off your seat and leg aids. Then you feel after all this time it MUST be enough training, finally, so you take the horse out in the snaffle and endanger your life or the horse's.

I am saying this because I was idealistic and stubborn about this idea and wanted so badly for it to be true. Therefore I was in several rough situations when the horse suddenly decided to stop being so compliant. But as Jaydee says, many professional and sympathetic riders at top levels have found this, and they ride their horses out in leverage bits. This is because as BSMS says, horses are not machines, and you can't just program A + B = C into them like a computer. Hot minded horse can and will figure out that A = they love to run, B = that gentle, sweet snaffle they comply so willingly with 90% of the time cannot stop them, and C = Woohoo!! I'm having the time of my life!!

I would never try to gallop out a true hot blood in order to make them tired and compliant. What works much better is to have them practice learning how to listen with shorter runs in a more controlled setting, then progress to longer, faster, and more challenging. If you start with short canters up a hill, then progress to longer canters, then gallops for thirty seconds that transition back to canter when you ask, this is how you can put the basics of control on a hotblood out in the open. If the horse is competitive, only add running with another horse when these basics are in place. This practice helps them learn that they don't have to fight you to run, but that you will let them run as long as they do it when you say. It's a teamwork thing, and soon the horse waits and listens for your signal, then comes back to you when you ask. If they never practice getting excited and then calm again, they will always over-release adrenaline when they get to run in the open. Practice teaches their brain and body that this is a normal thing, and not to get too excited about it.

BSMS, I've heard the Kineton can help certain horses. I've tried one and found that it made the snaffle less strong, because as someone (Jaydee?) said, it divides the pressure of the bit and puts some of it on the nose. If a horse is more sensitive to nose pressure, this would make the horse more responsive. Many horses find that this makes the bit less strong, instead.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

bsms said:


> Perhaps you ought to try reading what I wrote, then:
> 
> "*it requires training the horse to curb bit cues from the beginning*, and *that *can automatically fill in training holes"
> 
> As far as asinine...it has worked well for me and for some others. So I made a suggestion. You don't like it? Fine. But please do not distort what I said...


Sorry BSMS but that is complete rot. A curb bit is designed for refinement, having a horse 'graduate to it', and NOT used for initial training
You are not about to re write know accepted great training principles, by any /personal experience, or what some ;good ole boys do!
You know, some people got a horse to whoa, using a running w, but that doe snot mean I would ever let such a person handle a horse of mine!
KNow how we often could gage the experience of a person that sent a colt for my son to start?
The least experienced horse person, would ask if their colt would be neck reining, end of the month. The experienced horse person, just wanted the basics on that colt, in a snaffle
You are not going to change the accepted principle of experienced horse people here, by you using that curb, as a 'patch/bandaid', versus addressing the true problem of holes in training, going back to basic direct rein action, in either a bosal or snaffle


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

jaydee said:


> And I repeat - for all we know this horse has been ridden in a curb bit before and one handed and is more used to that than being ridden in direct contact in a snaffle
> The OP thinks it might have raced, thinks it might have done dressage but in truth hasn't a clue what it's done before - it might have been a saddleseat horse and they're a different thing to ride altogether
> The truth is we don't know because the OP doesn't know either
> The horse might have no holes at all (no disrespect to the OP intended) but just maybe it needs a rider who knows how to ride it.
> ...


Jaydee, does this horse sound like an upper trained horse, that needs an experienced rider to ride it, like an Olympic jumper or an upper dressage horse??????\Sorry, that is not the picture I get
Whether the horse was ridden western , means not much, as saddle alone means nothing. Many recreational riders ride a western horse, in a curb, two handed and with significant contact. However, if the horse was ever trained correctly, western, he would both understand contact and also rate on a loose rein. He would not get behind the vertical, prance, and be unable to be rated. 
To me, this horse sounds like it has huge holes in training, and not an upper performance horse, with the OP not at the level to ride such a horse
The op is not trying to run a reining pattern, jump across country course, ride a dressage pattern, but simply ride this horse out


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## Change (Jul 19, 2014)

I skipped over a lot of the posts, but I wanted to say I had a horse that sounds very similar to what you're experiencing, minus the damaged tongue. The gelding I had was Very Well Trained IN THE ARENA. Light and responsive to leg and body, any speed, any transition up or down, side pass, yield, back, slide stop. I could have taken him to any show and placed. 

What he couldn't do was walk outside of an arena. Even the short ride from the arena to the barn was a constant argument about slowing down. Trail rides were mostly miserable and I tried all sorts of stuff to get him to listen to me. I could usually keep him to a walk or trot, and sometimes get him into a very collected, "I really want to bust out and fly" canter, but it was like sitting on a keg of dynamite. If he ever busted loose, the only way to even slow him down was a one-rein stop and, even with his nose on my knee, he'd still be trying to run forward!

I wasn't smart enough back then to figure out a cure and finally gave up; selling him at auction for less than half what I paid for him. I wish - now that I'm older and wiser - I could go back and try again, though.

I really hope some of the folks here on the forum can help you and this horse!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Don't think we are talking of a 50,000 to 100,000 dollar reiner, jumper or dressage horse, that is 'too trained', for anyone but an experienced rider in any of those disciplines to ride correctly!
Keep forgetting that a race horse has that tongue tie thing done-but then should have a lip tattoo
Yes, horses can suffer accidental tongue injuries, like any other injury , but that might make them maybe a bit uncomfortable in a bit that mainly relies on tongue pressure, but it does not create a horse that over bridles,is tense, or does not have a;whoa, in whatever is used, including nothing. If that horse was some upper level horse that 'fell through the cracks', then that horse would not run through a bittless bridle or anything else


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Change said:


> I skipped over a lot of the posts, but I wanted to say I had a horse that sounds very similar to what you're experiencing, minus the damaged tongue. The gelding I had was Very Well Trained IN THE ARENA. Light and responsive to leg and body, any speed, any transition up or down, side pass, yield, back, slide stop. I could have taken him to any show and placed.
> 
> What he couldn't do was walk outside of an arena. Even the short ride from the arena to the barn was a constant argument about slowing down. Trail rides were mostly miserable and I tried all sorts of stuff to get him to listen to me. I could usually keep him to a walk or trot, and sometimes get him into a very collected, "I really want to bust out and fly" canter, but it was like sitting on a keg of dynamite. If he ever busted loose, the only way to even slow him down was a one-rein stop and, even with his nose on my knee, he'd still be trying to run forward!
> 
> ...


That is why, if you want a trail horse, you try him out on a trail before buying that horse, and not just in an arena
I ride my show horses out, as do all that Have a respectable training program, but I know what you mean, as I have seen show horses that could hardly be ridden from the barn to the arena, yet won in the show ring
In fact, the person who bought our last stallion, after I gelded him, had almost bought another horse
Luckily, she has a policy of trying any horse at least three times, before buying, with one of those tries being out on a trail
She tried this show mare twice in an arena, and she was excellent, showing advanced training
Third time, she rode that mare out, and even with the owner riding along, soon as she turned that mare towards home, that mare reared and tried to bolt. Needless to say, that killed the sale.
Our horse passed with flying colours, and the buyer has become a good friend, bought more horses from us, trail rode with me and has shown with me. She still has 'Cody', some 10 years later, and he will live out his days with her\
If there is one point to be made, it is that you have to try a horse in intended use
Many spoiled or sour show horses will ride great at home, yet blow or cheat in the showring.
Many show horses are never ridden out, and thus can act entirely green, insecure, ect, ridden outside of four walls


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

I've witnessed injuries from so called trainers tying rope, twine, even wire(!!) tightly across a horse's tongue & around the bottom jaw! Recently I remember reading about a vet who had to do a virtual reattachment of a horse's tongue, because it was almost severed because of this barbaric(& inexplicable) practice!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

_QUOTE Smilie_
_Jaydee, does this horse sound like an upper trained horse, that needs an experienced rider to ride it, like an Olympic jumper or an upper dressage horse??????\Sorry, that is not the picture I get_
Without seeing the horse and riding it myself I have no clue whatsoever what it's like and neither do you. 
Anything you're seeing is in your imagination and what you want to see
If the OP were to ride Valegro or Big Star I think she'd probably have much the same results as the OP and this horse and you'd say they had big holes in their training based on that
I know someone who had a top saddleseat horse that had won all over the US and was foot perfect in an arena and around the barn grounds but had a complete meltdown when she tried to take him on a trail adjoining their property. He would also have been very difficult, even dangerous, for anyone who didn't know how to ride saddleseat because it was all he knew and it didn't take a lot to fizz him up.
Most people would have major problems riding a good polo pony, most English riders would struggle with a reining horse, heck, most 'weekend' English riders wouldn't know how to ride a top dressage horse.
I'm not saying that this horse is any of those things, what I'm trying to say is that it has no history and when you get a horse like that its foolish to dismiss anything because it could be that one thing that works
The OP doesn't say that the horse is unresponsive to the snaffle in the arena - she just says its a bit 'sharp' - well you could say that for all of my horses if someone tried to use more leg on them than they're used too
As for the curbs are only for refinement - well yes in your ideal world they might be but in the real world we all should know that that's a load of rubbish, even if you just based it on the numbers of people that come to this forum and are riding or wanting to ride their horses in long shanked curbs 'just because' or use thin wire mouthpieces because the horse is 'so light' in it
Not all curb bits are western either - if the horse is trained English it might have been ridden in a Pelham, a kimberwick or something like a 3 ring gag for extra brakes when needed


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## Prairie (May 13, 2016)

jaydee said:


> _QUOTE _As for the curbs are only for refinement - well yes in your ideal world they might be but in the real world we all should know that that's a load of rubbish, even if you just based it on the numbers of people that come to this forum and are riding or wanting to ride their horses in long shanked curbs 'just because' or use thin wire mouthpieces because the horse is 'so light' in it
> Not all curb bits are western either - if the horse is trained English it might have been ridden in a Pelham, a kimberwick or something like a 3 ring gag for extra brakes when needed



So why punish the horse because the rider doesn't know how to ride correctly using the natural aids? Rather than resort to the bigger, harsher bit in hands that are hard, teach the rider how to use their legs, seat, weight, and core to control the horse. If hubby and I had bought into the bigger bit philosophy, I highly doubt that our 2 TWH's, both with confirmed histories of abuse, would have transformed into good equine citizens who give their all no matter what we ask of them. We'd still have a hard mouth gelding going around with his head in the clouds and a mare who was so tense when handled, you'd think she was going to explode. Instead, both are soft and responsive to a whispered cue and out-performing horses in discipline they weren't bred to do.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

jaydee said:


> Not all curb bits are western either - if the horse is trained English it might have been ridden in a Pelham, a kimberwick or something like a 3 ring gag for extra brakes when needed


Again though the slight disconnect...putting my English hat on, absolutely, need more brakes add any of the above, but we are not comparing like with like. Pelham, yes a true curb, has shanks and a curb chain, but have you ever seen them used with just a curb rein? There is enough of an uproar when someone suggests roundings, it is a bit that gives you a choice if ridden with two, and does not act as a full curb when used with one rein and roundings. 

The Kimberwick, well yes ridden with a curb, but have no leverage below the bit, the slots are all in the ring, so barely a curb.

The 3 ring gag, I have never used, so relying on Google images here, and not seeing a curb strap used, so I'm thinking not a proper curb, if a chain is used, well then yes, a proper curb obviously.

So then putting my Western Hat on, when someone says curb, I have a fixed picture in my mind of a bit always used with a curb chain, and with dropped shanks giving an amount of leverage. I also have a picture of a bit not designed to be ridden in contact, and not actually as a brake. Now is that always the case, well of course not, but the fact remains, at the basics, English riders bit up to give more brakes, Western riders bit up to finesse, and prove that they don't need brakes..


This is the fundamental problem of discussions like these, everyone is coming at it from a slightly different understanding, and it leads to confusion and conflict.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Very true that curbs are used differently, between English and western (ideally, and correctly)
A kimberwick does have slight curb action, when the reins are attached to the lower slot, whether that has anything to do with this post or not
Now, going to gaited horses, which I believe, this horse is not, it is true that many are started in long shanked bits, and just taught to move out, with perhaps a head set, but not much else, far as learning nay body control 
I agree that none of us are seeing this horse, but going by the post, reading into what is posted, I see a horse that was not bought for a high dollar value, of a certain body build, that suggests either an AQHA or a TB. Far as we know, no tattoo to suggest being raced.
Not generalizing and including those that run games, through proper training, but go to any local type show, and watch the gymkana classes. Horses are run with severe bits, not legal elsewhere, like bicycle chain, gags, along with tiedowns
At this level, those horses have not been taught to run out of body control, but are jerked and spurred around those obstacles. 
I imagine many of those mouths are damaged, and those horses get hot. Many will start to refuse to enter the ring, rearing, needing to be led in
On trial rides, those that are ridden out, that I have been with, are ridden with tiedowns, tight rein contact, never relax, and jig and prance


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Prairie said:


> So why punish the horse because the rider doesn't know how to ride correctly using the natural aids? Rather than resort to the bigger, harsher bit in hands that are hard, teach the rider how to use their legs, seat, weight, and core to control the horse...


The "natural aids" of seat, leg, weight & core won't mean squat to a competitive horse who wants to race, or a scared horse who wants to run away. The horse gets to make decisions. He has a brain, and a will, and desires. An excited horse has adrenaline and excitement saying "*Do X! Do X! Do X!*" SHOUTING in his mind, and your seat aids are not going to be heard.

You cannot ride a horse without setting boundaries or requiring a certain amount of obedience. Lots of riders carry whips or crops, or use the end of their reins to urge a horse forward. I've never needed those because my horses tend to err on the side of going too forward too fast. But using a bit and reins to say "We WILL not gallop" is no more wrong than using a kick of the heels or a crop to say "We WILL move faster".

When Bandit used to panic and wanted to spin 180 and gallop away, do you think he gave a rat's rear end about my "seat aids"? Do you think "leg aids" would stop him? Not hardly! But when he would spin around 180, I'd use the reins and the bit to keep him spinning until we were facing the scary thing again. If he tried to run away, I'd be as aggressive and "cruel" as needed to enforce a boundary: "We do not run away. EVER!"

Once he learned I would enforce those boundaries, he was THEN willing to compromise - and THEN I could "suggest" moving a little sideways, or maybe even walking away until he felt safe, and then dismounting and showing him he had nothing to be afraid of. When I used the reins and bit to enforce "We do not run away, ever!", I could THEN work to get him past on slack reins. Nowadays, I mostly let him look, give a kiss, and we go by on slack reins...but I needed to set boundaries in order to train Bandit to get to where we are now.

That is a part of training a horse. How difficult that will be depends on the horse. 

A curb bit is not a "bigger bit". It is not harsher. It does not apply more force to the horse's mouth. A horse who will respond to 9 lbs of pressure in the mouth will do so regardless of whether that is 9 lbs applied to a snaffle, or 3 lbs amplified 3 times by leverage. The horse doesn't do math. It will respond to the same pressure regardless.

What a curb bit does - and "curb" means "restrain", that is its definition - is apply the pressure to the tongue and bars regardless of the horse's head position. Thus, in my first post on this thread, I said, "*A horse who stretches his head out can easily ignore a snaffle...*" Why did I say that?








​ 

A snaffle is a linear bit. Pull, and the bit goes in the direction of the pull. A horse who stretches out his head causes the bit to pull back against his molars, and many horses are quite content to run that way. They give themselves "release" from the bit.

A curb bit rotates. Once the curb strap engages, the upper end of the shank is fixed in place. A curb bit does not create any significant poll pressure. The rotation of the shanks WILL rotate the mouthpiece downward and apply pressure to the tongue and bars, which are much more sensitive than the molars! With a curb bit, the horse doesn't get release from pressure until the RIDER gives release.

Once the horse learns the ride CAN curb him - restrain him - THEN the rider can try to teach the horse to obey lower amounts of pressure. *But a bit cannot communicate unless it first controls. And how much control is required depends on the horse, not the rider.*

I've discovered with Bandit that if we are cantering alone together in the desert, he'll stop by seat alone. Why? Because the trails are hard and he doesn't really WANT to canter very far. Not when it is just the two of us.

But add another horse to the mix, and everything changes. Bandit is competitive. That is why they liked using him in the last leg of relay races - if there was a way to win, he'd find it. Because he wanted to win! No spurs, no whips - just his will to beat the other horse. So if there is another horse out with us, Bandit responds differently. Then he WANTS to run, and getting him to slow may mean a fight for control.

That is not true of Trooper. He doesn't care about racing. He is easy to slow, regardless of where you are or how many other horses there are. It is his personality. My Border Collie was bred to herd. My German Shepherd was not. Bandit was bred with racing in mind. Trooper was not.

Could I teach the competitiveness out of Bandit? Maybe. Not sure I want to, though. My Arabian/Mustang mix sometimes tells me where to go, and I kind of like that. He hasn't tried to turn and run away from anything since last fall, and he hasn't even spun 90 degree since last April. But he has opinions. He likes to express them. I'm OK with that - I like hearing them.

You cannot train every horse to slow by seat aids alone. Kipling wrote of polo, _"...It takes a very good man to stand up to the rush of seven crazy ponies in the last quarter of a cup game, *when men are riding with their necks for sale, and the ponies are delirious*."_ I wouldn't want a horse who was so calm he'd always stop with seat aids alone. I'll never play polo, but I like a horse with a will of its own. Mia, Bandit (who is a mini-Mia)...I like them for who they are.


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## Prairie (May 13, 2016)

@bsms, obviously your training methods are different than mine......and FYI, racehorses are trained to run FASTER when the bit is pulled back, which has nothing to do with ignoring the bit. Personally, I prefer my horses soft and responsive so if life goes south, I can rely on them to engage their brains......and I've played polo so am familiar with how the GOOD ones are trained----you need a horse who is responsive to the cues to make those direction changes quickly and get in there to fight for the ball, and the fastest way to cue is with your natural aids--I'm hanging onto the reins with one hand and the mallet with the other!


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## EliRose (Aug 12, 2012)

Your use of a racehorse as an example is just ridiculous, considering the main breaks a jockey uses. . . seat aids! Jockeys standing up/sitting back is what stops a racehorse, and it sure doesn't make their competitive streak quit. When retraining a racehorse you don't touch their face but use your body, because they are taught bit contact = go faster. You remove contact from their faces, removing all pressure. That is how racehorses are trained. By body control.

Adding a curb or other strong bit just adds pressure and panic in a horse that doesn't know what you are asking.


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

Golden Horse said:


> I guess there must be more than one sort of tongue tie? I was interested in them so had a trainer show me how they do them when we were visiting the racing barn, they used soft material, I couldn't see that scarring.


The problem can be caused by either the tie being tied too tightly from the start and cutting into the tongue as it swells from lack of circulation or if it gets caught in something and jerked hard enough to cut (think accident in the starting gate). I watched the latter happen during gate training once and it was ugly. I would never have expected such a small scrap of cloth to be so strong. My other experience with it was a (super anxious) filly who came to us after a claiming race with a nasty, lumpy, scarred tongue. I was able to ask her previous groom about it and was told she really worked at the tie to get it off, so apparently the previous trainer's solution was to just tie it as tight as he possibly could ever race. :neutral:


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

EliRose said:


> ...Adding a curb or other strong bit just adds pressure and panic in a horse that doesn't know what you are asking.


No. Just no. I used a race horse because no one ever took a photo of Mia in a bolt, so I couldn't use her. But horses that stretch their heads out CAN ignore a snaffle.

A curb it not a strong bit. You do not control via pressure and panic but by RELEASE. A curb bit gives the rider better control of when the release happens, and that release teaches the horse. And my suggestion was not to 'slap a curb in and call it fixed' but to train a horse using a curb bit as a tool. Thus "_a horse that doesn't know what you are asking_" is utterly irrelevant to my suggestion!

"_racehorses are trained to run FASTER when the bit is pulled back, which has nothing to do with ignoring the bit_"

Actually, it has everything to do with it. If the horse could not run thru the bit when used like that, they wouldn't train the horses to do so. The fact that horses CAN easily run thru that is why they don't mind training them to do so.

But this thread is wandering far away from the OP's questions and concerns. My suggestion was based on having owned a horse who frequently bolted, who was very competitive, and who did NOT want to stop 'when her blood was up' - and what I suggested worked extremely well for her. There was nothing cruel about using a curb bit to teach her to curb her impulses. If anything, it saved her life. And taught her how to relax:








​ 
Folks can say it cannot work...but it did. And since it worked so well for me and my horse, I suggested it. If the OP chooses to ignore my suggestion, that is fine. I've never met the OP or her horse, and even if I had, I wouldn't pretend to know The Real Answer...and I'm sure the OP knows it was just a suggestion.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I have had three horse that had major mout/tongue damage. One was missing at least 4" of his tongue, this happened when he was a wrangling, no one knows how it really never made any difference to him. 

The other came in from the field with a bloody mouth and he had lacerated his tongue, again we hadn't a clue. It healed but he did have a heck of a scar. 

The third was a big young horse, unbroken at the time, and he got kicked on the jaw. The jaw healed badly and the lower three molars Of the lower jaw grew into his tongue which went gangrenous and part had to be removed. I bought the horse for next to nothing after it had all healed. He was difficult to fit a bit to and as I evented him he had to wear one. I had a special bit made for him (costing more than the horse did!) but it worked well. 

As for the use of bits, I have a collection of bits some of which would bring tears to your eyes. I collected but never used them. A horse that is in a true bolt will run through any bit. 

As with anything, there is a knack to holding a strong horse. Most racehorses are ridden in snaffles, most on the gallops, know the routine of long canters, (though a canter in racing terms is a slow gallop) they settle into it and when the order changes their hands they open up amd go into a true gallop. 
Some horse just want to run and take on any horse around and they can be difficult to get settled so they are not using all their energy fighting the rider. The art is not to let them get into their stride and keep swinging them off balance. They will fight this like crazy for several work sessions and then settle. 

With hot horses you can spend all the time you like in an arena and have them totally obedient but take them out and they forget it all the moment they are on open ground. 

I agree with Jaydee saying ponying them out can settle them but mostly it is a matter of going out and doing, no cantering, lots of walking, slow trots and the moment they start to want to go ask for a correct downward transition and start again. When they are relaxed, letting them stretch down.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

EliRose said:


> Adding a curb or other strong bit just adds pressure and panic in a horse that doesn't know what you are asking.


Exactly, if they don't understand, IF they are race trained and think more pressure means RUN FASTER, then adding a curb, or other strong bit simply wont help


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## EliRose (Aug 12, 2012)

Well then you shouldn't have used a racehorse for your picture.

And yeah, jockeys CAN pull up horses in an emergency situation by pulling. Every see a breakdown where the horse has to get pulled up before the race is finished? That same snaffle can be used to stop the horse with enough pressure. You have NEVER aided in the training of a racehorse, and I simply do not respect your opinion in that regard. They're not running through the bit as you think they are, they are not bolting. It is a TRAINED behavior. If you didn't want this conversation you shouldn't have used that picture.

As FH said, a true bolter will bolt through anything.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

BSMS, a true bolter can run through anything, including a curb
If you managed to prevent your horse from bolting, using a curb, you have a temporary solution, as it you rely on that bit, not retraining, then eventually he will run through that curb also
If you are just pulling straight back on both reins on a snaffle, you are not using that bit correctly. If you can't have your horse give tot hat snaffle, and just stretch his neck out, you need to go back and do some training. If you can't take the head away correctly, with one rein, and disengage those hips, again, you need to put some body control on that horse, before riding out
Now, I have posted those videos by Larry trocha before, so won't be redundant
Yes, a curb rotates, for 'signal, but your rein hand and pull has to be up, as when riding one handed, and not where you would have your hands, riding with a snaffle
Race horses run on the bit, and are not bolting. They are at times, pulled up, with the jockey standing in the stirrups, using a pully rein


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

bsms said:


> You cannot ride a horse without setting boundaries or requiring a certain amount of obedience. Lots of riders carry whips or crops, or use the end of their reins to urge a horse forward. I've never needed those because my horses tend to err on the side of going too forward too fast. But using a bit and reins to say "We WILL not gallop" is no more wrong than using a kick of the heels or a crop to say "We WILL move faster".


This is a very good point. Why don't people say, "No, don't EVER go to more pressure when asking a horse to go forward. The horse must be trained only to go off your seat. If the horse won't move lightly off your seat, DON'T smack him, instead, go back to the arena and work more on "go" with super light cues."
Rather, people say that if your horse doesn't go forward off your seat on the trail, smack him with the reins, use what works. But following the theory of the harsher bit, wouldn't that create a horse that needs more and more pressure to go? 

Seems silly to think that. It's the same with a bit that applies more pressure. The horse tries to run off, gets a correction that is strong enough to get through his excited mind, and it does not lead to needing more and more pressure. Instead, it can help work the horse toward becoming lighter. 


bsms said:


> A snaffle is a linear bit. Pull, and the bit goes in the direction of the pull. A horse who stretches out his head causes the bit to pull back against his molars, and many horses are quite content to run that way. They give themselves "release" from the bit.
> 
> A curb bit rotates. Once the curb strap engages, the upper end of the shank is fixed in place. A curb bit does not create any significant poll pressure. The rotation of the shanks WILL rotate the mouthpiece downward and apply pressure to the tongue and bars, which are much more sensitive than the molars! With a curb bit, the horse doesn't get release from pressure until the RIDER gives release.
> 
> Once the horse learns the ride CAN curb him - restrain him - THEN the rider can try to teach the horse to obey lower amounts of pressure. *But a bit cannot communicate unless it first controls. And how much control is required depends on the horse, not the rider.*


I think this is true, but also I would add that for some horses it is not the bit at all or how the curb affects the bit, but rather it is the curb strap that changes things. I've seen this on horses that will respond nicely in a curb bit OR hackamore that has a curb strap or chain, without a bit in the mouth. 

It is a misunderstanding that racehorses are "trained" to run faster when there is pressure on the bit. They don't have to be retrained to understand a snaffle in a more traditional way once they are done racing. They simply follow a common english style understanding of the snaffle which is degrees of pressure. Some pressure along with the cues to "go," means go. More pressure along with cues to slow (half halts) means to slow down. They can be asked to walk, trot, and canter around the track with bit contact as well as gallop. They are just taught that they can move into bit pressure, just as dressage horses are taught that they can. And just like dressage horses, they are taught that a half halt with pressure on one rein means to gather themselves, slow or stop. 
People who get on OTTBs sometimes feel the horse has been taught to push into pressure, because the horse often is excited and requires a good deal of pressure to stop until used to the new situation of being off the track.

I doubt many dressage riders would agree that the curb is used in english riding for getting more "whoa" and in western riding for refinement. I've read from many, many dressage theorists all about how the double bridle is added once the horse is fully trained, to get refinement.


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

It seems plausible to me that this horse is just not accustomed to being in an open area. The OP (CowCow) said that the arena behavior is actually pretty decent.

Maybe that is the source of the bit scar, trying to put a stop on a horse that wants to go at a dead gallop in an open area, like a trail.

I can't offer anything useful to try for that, but it seems like going from the arena directly to a trail might be too big of a jump for this horse right now. Maybe he needs a more incremental approach.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

The geometry and linear pull of a snaffle are important, because that linear pull on a stretched out head results in the bit being pulled up and against the molars - assuming the horse doesn't get the 'bit in his teeth'. And a horse can ignore that pressure much easier than he can ignore pressure against the tongue and bars. The molars are less sensitive than the bars. I used the race horse picture because it was available. There are surprisingly few good pictures of a bolting horse, but tons of them that show the geometry of a snaffle bit used on a horse with a stretched out head.

In western riding, curb bits were not traditionally used for "refinement". That is, at best, a show affectation. Traditionally, curb bits were used because horses were ridden with one hand (to free up the other) and for safety. If your car was going to accelerate wildly, which would you prefer to have - a means of stopping the car, or good steering until the car runs out of gas? Most would prefer to stop the car right away rather than steer it at 80 mph until the tank was dry.

When Mia filled her hind leg with cactus spines, it took 3 flicks of my wrist to stop her in a curb bit. I suspect it would have been more challenging in a snaffle.

That is why curbs were used almost universally on ranches in the old west. Heck, that is why they are called "curb bits" and not "communication bits" or "refinement bits"....they *curb*.

There is a great web site with hundreds of photos of the old west, and good luck finding snaffle bits on it:

Erwin E. Smith Collection Guide | Collection Guide

Refinement? Very subtle communication? Or just getting the job done?










It is the English tradition of near constant contact that led to curb bits being something for only the best riders. In western riding, they are common. I've seen more curbs than snaffles on the trails near me...


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## EliRose (Aug 12, 2012)

If you think most ranches start their horses in curbs, I have a bridge to sell.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

EliRose said:


> If you think most ranches start their horses in curbs, I have a bridge to sell.


Can I buy it, need a bridge to access my ocean front property in Arizona :wink:


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

ranch horses are 'graduated to a curb, to facilitate riding with one hand, leaving the other hand free for roping ect
Modern progression has sped up, from the time of the Vaqueros, but you only need to read how a Spade bit horse is produced, to see how utterly perverted it is, to start a western horse in a curb, skipping basic education in a snaffle or bosal
In fact, if you read the letter from Ed Corrnel, he stated that even when a horse was at the education to be ridden with a spade, many riders would have a snaffle tied on the saddle, in case they had to school a horse
Yes, you move a ranch horse on to a curb, as that is what is considered a 'finished horse, 'up in the bridle'
But you don't start there, any more then sending a kid to high school before her has been in elementary school!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Far as a differnce between a curb used English and western , there certainly is. English you use it with contact and two hands. Yes, I know, in a double bridle the snaffle reins are used first, and curb only if needed
The very design of the shanks of an English curb, would preclude any great degree of signal, being both fixed and straight


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

I looked through some of those historical western riding photos, and then looked through a lot more online. It does appear many horses were started back then in curb bits. I'm curious about when this changed. For some reason I assumed we had always had a tradition of starting horses in snaffles (even in western riding) and progressing to the curb. Meaning, the more common modern branch of western riding that came from "Texas style" ranch riding versus the vaquero tradition using bosals, etc. 

Another assumption I had was that the Native Americans kept to their own traditions and used things like war bridles. I saw that they seemed to mainly ride in curb bits too, but more of them seemed to ride in snaffles than the cowboys did. I saw a photo of a Native American from about 1905 in what appeared to be a full cheek snaffle. Interesting to think of a rider on the plains back then thinking about what bit they might use to get better steering. Probably more difficult to get one than just shopping on Amazon. 
Check out the fancy curb on this guy in 1892:


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

EliRose said:


> If you think most ranches start their horses in curbs, I have a bridge to sell.


Please try reading my posts rather than responding to something I did not write. I wrote, "That is why curbs were used almost universally on ranches in the old west." "Old west" - and in the Old West, they often DID start horses in curbs - based on both pictures and old books I've read.



Golden Horse said:


> Can I buy it, need a bridge to access my ocean front property in Arizona :wink:


Maybe if you lived in Arizona, and not Canada, you'd realize there are plenty of folks who start a young horse in a sidepull or snaffle, then transition to a curb within weeks or a few months - and then ride in a curb for the rest of the horse's life. Maybe if you spent time riding around in Arizona instead of taking ""Western Dressage" lessons, you wouldn't be worried about transitioning a horse to a curb. 

Bandit had never been in a curb bit. I spent about 10 minutes with him on the ground, doing lateral and vertical flexes - and in the Dreaded Tom Thumb Bit! Then we did it at a standstill, then at a walk, and after about 15 minutes we went out of the arena and rode thru the neighborhood (which is the scariest part to him) and the desert. He did fine. Took him less than 30 minutes to go from never having been in a curb to riding outside the arena with one.

Of course, that is using the western approach to rein use, not the Western Dressage approach.

It also didn't mean he was ready to show. And in fact, he never will be ready to show. Not unless someone else buys him and trains him for it. On the Over 50 thread a few days ago, in response to a new member writing about their horses not being highly trained, I wrote:



bsms said:


> I don't think my horses have many buttons to push. 3 horses and 3 riders, and 95% of the time we each ride the same horse. I don't even know what the "correct cues" are myself, but Bandit seems to increasingly just realize what is wanted and does it. Same with the other 2 horses and their riders.


For our riding, that is fine. Based on the OP's post, it might be fine for her. A western rider who wants to ride outside the arena, on trails, often doesn't ride a horse with a lot of "buttons". However, one of the nice things about riding the same horse a lot is the horse figures you out. After a year, Bandit often knows what I plan to do before I do, or so it seems. My wife is a raw beginner, riding a very experienced and thoughtful mustang pony. The pony knows the desert better than she does. He's had at least 6 different owners and is a former (sour) lesson horse. He often seems to read her mind. In return, she is learning how to read his. Not a bad deal at all.

The OP - who seems to have been forgotten - has a horse who has a damaged mouth. He behaves very well in the arena:

"He isn't spooky and can be walked over tarps, mattresses, pretty much anything without a problem. He has excellent ground manners and will stop with just a "whoah" ....in the arena." - post #1

But:

"on a trail, we walk, trot, gallop. There is no canter, and we end up doing many, many circles...I had to constantly block their path to keep him from bolting across a field. Tight circles just don't work with him like they should." 

A Billy Allen curb is a western curb with a very mild mouthpiece. Curbs can help a horse learn to slow or stop in a straight line rather than using circles. Those used to get Mia worked up too - like the OP's horse:

"It obviously prevents forward motion, but it seems to make him more excited as he starts hopping..."

I don't know if my suggestion would in any way help the OP or not. That is her decision, along with the trainer she is working with. But there is nothing scary about a western rider transitioning a horse to a Billy Allen curb. The advice I gave in post #13 worked well for me, with Mia first and then with Bandit. It was hardly radical advice or something beyond a normal western rider's abilities. The traditional western approach of using slack reins most of the time, and only using contact until the horse responds, and then giving release of contact, works fine for a western curb bit.

There is nothing wrong with a snaffle. Bandit is using a single-joint O-ring and doing fine. But there is also nothing scary about a western curb. A lot of good English riders also seem to find value in curb bits. They are not scary bits.

Side by side of my Reinsman Tom Thumb and the Billy Allen:










Very similar proportions, but I like the BA mouthpiece better.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

gottatrot said:


> I looked through some of those historical western riding photos, and then looked through a lot more online. It does appear many horses were started back then in curb bits. I'm curious about when this changed.  For some reason I assumed we had always had a tradition of starting horses in snaffles (even in western riding) and progressing to the curb. Meaning, the more common modern branch of western riding that came from "Texas style" ranch riding versus the vaquero tradition using bosals, etc.
> 
> Another assumption I had was that the Native Americans kept to their own traditions and used things like war bridles. I saw that they seemed to mainly ride in curb bits too, but more of them seemed to ride in snaffles than the cowboys did. I saw a photo of a Native American from about 1905 in what appeared to be a full cheek snaffle. Interesting to think of a rider on the plains back then thinking about what bit they might use to get better steering. Probably more difficult to get one than just shopping on Amazon.
> Check out the fancy curb on this guy in 1892:


If you look through some of those old historical pictures, you will also see horses taken off the range, hobbled, blind folded and bucked out, without any clue first how to give to anything that was on their hear. I see Fred Remington pictures showing a bosal used in those photos
Far as First Nation people, when they first got horses , they used whatever they had, like fashioning a war bridle. When they captured calvery horses , they used the bridles that came with them
Many things were done to make a horse usable at the time, including capturing mustangs by creasing them. Many that did not die, wound up in the Great world wars
However,, interesting as all this might be, it has nothing to do with how ranch horses are started today, were started int he past in respected programs
There are many respectable western colt starters, many who cut their teeth starting horses, working on ranches. You can pick up copies of magazines like Western horseman, and read about them. Not one starts a ranch horse with a curb,Many start them in a bosal, following Vaquero tradition, others use snaffles


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Prairie - When you say that putting the horse in a curb bit is like punishing it you do realise that you've just said that all horses ridden in curb bits are therefore being punished?
You can't assume that the OP has harsh hands and doesn't know how to ride in a curb bit any more than you can assume that the horse isn't already trained to ride in one. The only way to find out is to try
I could google images of western horses ridden on trails and probably the majority of them are ridden in a curb bit - is that for 'refinement' on the trails? I doubt it. Did someone put in hours of expert training to get them used to it? I doubt it. Do they need one? Probably not, mostly its just for effect but I'm thinking that maybe in some cases they occasionally do. Do they all look abused and stressed out by those bits? No.
We don't know if the horse is trained western or English or both
We don't know that its an OTTB
We don't actually know what breed (if any) it is at all
It's responsive to the snaffle in the arena so must have been trained OK to ride in one. The OP could spend years riding in the arena but that isn't likely to make it any more responsive since its already OK in there. The only way to get it used to the trails is to take it out on them and if putting a stronger bit on it for a while gives it better brakes until it settles down outside of an enclosed space then what's the harm in that?


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## Prairie (May 13, 2016)

jaydee, you misinterpreted what I was trying to say......if the horse is going well in a snaffle in an enclosed space, then there is a training issue if the horse is too strong outside the arena and using a bigger, stronger bit is never the correct answer for a training issue. To crank on the horse's head with that bigger, stronger bit is punishment since the horse has holes in his training that need to be addressed. 


There are some who are "just" trail riders and have no understanding of how to bit a horse up or training so they use whatever bit the animal was in when they purchased him or whatever bit they have. Others use trail riding as another training venue, enjoy testing their training skills against nature and unexpected obstacles rather than riding in circles, and use the bit/bitless bridle that works best for the horse-----that can be anything from a sidepull to a snaffle to a curb, since every horse is an individual. 


As for what ranches used, we happen to live just north of some large ranches where a single pasture is over 10,000 acres and know many of the owners. Horses at least in that area are started either in a sidepull or a snaffle depending on the individual horse and what the trainer feels is best for the individual. I've never seen a horse under 5 yo in a curb on those ranches even when cutting or roping cattle.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Prairie said:


> jaydee, you misinterpreted what I was trying to say......if the horse is going well in a snaffle in an enclosed space, then there is a training issue if the horse is too strong outside the arena and using a bigger, stronger bit is never the correct answer for a training issue. To crank on the horse's head with that bigger, stronger bit is punishment since the horse has holes in his training that need to be addressed.


I think you are incorrect with this statement. 

My last horse was absolutely fine in the arena, light as a feather and flexible, however, take him out of the arena and he was so strong, would set his head and neck and just want to charge off. His whole demeanour changed. It wasn't as if he had been a racehorse as he was a real quality cob.


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## Prairie (May 13, 2016)

Then you had a training issue that was related to where the horse was comfortable and responsive to being worked---that's a hole in the training since the horse was not worked both in an arena and outside of one to learn to listen to the rider and respond correctly no matter where you are riding or what you are doing.


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

gottatrot said:


> Meaning, the more common modern branch of western riding that came from "Texas style" ranch riding versus the vaquero tradition using bosals, etc.


The "Texas style" is heavily borrowed from Vaqueros of Chihuahua Mexico and other states like Jalisco. My interpretation is that what really sped things up is the popularity of Ranch Rodeos around the 1900s for big bucks and bragging rights, and now guys make millions roping. Go figure. 

If I recall correctly from museum visits the traditional bits look like a decorative hand forged variation of the Snaffle Bit and also a bit that looks pretty similar to a Spade. I know each has a name in Spanish with of course a goofy anglicized nickname but I couldn't what either are off hand. I'm not aware of either a Jaquima or Two Rein tradition in Texas in those days. 

Then again, it wasn't that uncommon for Cowboys from a big ranch like the King to be hired out to other ranches in the West and even Hawaii.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Also, we have a lot of 'transition bits now, not available in Vaquero days, which allowed some sped up process, far as producing either a finished bridle horse, or a Spade bit horse
Can ahorse be started in a curb, sure,, as I am living proof of that! 
Should it be done, once anyone really understands producing alight responsive horse, keeping that mouth light as possible-NOPE!
When I moved out west,at the age of 22, I could ride some pretty tough horses, having been self taught, riding that spoiled stallion my step father bought me, just riding other horses, whether broke or not
However , I had never been introduced to bitting a horse, starting a horse 
correctly
I met a tech , who worked in Chemistry, and who told me I should come with er out to Black Diamond ( a pretty frontier type town, 30 some odd years ago ) and see this 'green broke two year old
He was at a dude type horse dealer ranch. Some ole cowboy got on this horse, in a dark corner of a barn, and I bought that horse, for $200, not really knowing what 'green broke meant
I also had ridden that stud, who bolted, reared, went over backwards, started a draft filly myself, but had never ridden ahorse that was good at bucking, nor did I know anything about ground work
That tech, told me to start him in a 'cowboy snaffle', which was in fact, a jointed mouth curb with fairly long shanks. She also failed to tell me I should use a curb strap!
I actually rode that colt, bucked off, regularity, without even having a curb strap on that bit, Eventually, some cowboy had mercy on me, and told me to attach a curb strap
I got that horse broke, to the point that I rode him into Calgary (no trialer ) KEPT him in my future in laws back yard over night, and then rode him in the Calgary Stampede.
What does all this mean?
Horses are very forgiving creatures, and just going by how horses were broke/handled, means zip, far as becoming educated, learning what a good training program is based on-and it sure as heck is not based on starting a horse in a curb, even if it was done, or still is done by some yo hos, to where the horse is just a tool to get a job done!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

This is Martin Black, part of the team of Evidence BASED horsemanship.and who started as many as 500 colts a year on working ranches. Note the snaffle and bosaL







http://martinblack.net/meet-martin-black

There is no way, taking random pictures, from people starting horses, who were not really horsemen, whose programs were never accepted as good standard practice, that starting a colt in a curb , western, is, or ever has been accepted by good horsemen!


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

gottatrot said:


> I looked through some of those historical western riding photos, and then looked through a lot more online. It does appear many horses were started back then in curb bits. I'm curious about when this changed. For some reason I assumed we had always had a tradition of starting horses in snaffles (even in western riding) and progressing to the curb. Meaning, the more common modern branch of western riding that came from "Texas style" ranch riding versus the vaquero tradition using bosals, etc.
> 
> Another assumption I had was that the Native Americans kept to their own traditions and used things like war bridles. I saw that they seemed to mainly ride in curb bits too, but more of them seemed to ride in snaffles than the cowboys did. I saw a photo of a Native American from about 1905 in what appeared to be a full cheek snaffle. Interesting to think of a rider on the plains back then thinking about what bit they might use to get better steering. Probably more difficult to get one than just shopping on Amazon.
> Check out the fancy curb on this guy in 1892:


Well, by 1892 ( the year my great grandmother was born) and the year 1905 the Native population of the US had pretty much been forced to stop riding the plains and hunting buffalo. But, prior to the total destruction of the Native culture, I wonder if they worried more about steering with legs and seat (body control) versus hands, since hunting buffalo their hands were occupied with bow and arrow. 

Did they specifically train body control first? Or just slap an Indian war bridle on and call it a day? Did they have a 'system' of training to bring a horse along? 

I wish I knew then my argument would sound better....lololol


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

No, it was just his mentality and how he had been ridden before he came to me. 

You can have a horse trained to perfection in and out of the arena, get it with a pack of hounds in front of it and you can throw that training out the window, the high pitched sound of Foxhounds following a line gets them really excited and then the charging along with other horses can make a horse very over excited regardless of training. Once they are use to it they settle amd become great hunters though some will always be hotter than normal. 

The horse I referred to was one of the strongest I have ever ridden. He knew about following hounds and his determination to be at the front was phenomenal. He wasn't an easy ride out with hounds until I was whipping in. Then being with the hounds, he was a joy. 

He did have a lot of mental problems when he came to me, those we overcame. He trusted me and I trusted him. When you are going into a 5' high hedge, as wide, if not wider than its height, on a little horse that cannot see the other side, there cannot be holes in the training.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I believe we are getting way off topic, interesting as that might be!
Have we heard from the OP at all lately?
Until then, I still think this horse should go back to basic training, get the horse trusting hands on reins, learn body control, as I don;t think the Op needs to ride out at the moment, cross country, following hounds, but just to get a fun and sane horse to ride out
Holes are not fixed by going to a curb or any type of mechanical hackamore for control, although there might be application, used on ahorse that gets strong, used at speed in adrenaline type activities-be it cross country, barrel racing, polo, ect
If you just want a sane horse you can either ride and show in an arena, and also ride out, then no bit is going to achieve that. You get such a horse, by first having him solid , working in a comfort zone, and that does not mean just picking up all three gaits, riding the rail!
That means, having a horse that rides off of seat and legs, mainly, has body control, is soft in the face and poll
I have never had a problem riding a horse out, even for the first time, if I have those basics on him first. Sure, the horse might be 'looky', but he also has ingrained response to your aids, so you can ride him past anything, and build his confidence as you do that
THus, my advise remains the same. Get that horse truly 'broke; , with body control, using either a snaffle or a bosal, and then ride him out.
\iIn other words, to quote John Lyons, being not a disciple of him then any other trainer "ride where you can, until you have the training to ride where you now cannot'
Sure, horses always ridden in some confined area, soon consider those walls as controlling him, being his comfort zone, but those horses are not what is truly 'broke' If a horse is broke, learns to guide, has body control, accepts that rider as leader, you can ride him out, even for the very first time


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