# smacking a horse



## 1dog3cats17rodents

Smacking does not mean you lose your temper. IMHO it is a legitamite training tool. You don't see horses in the pasture saying "please move out of my space or I'll make you back up" No, they kick their a$$

Obviously hitting is not always the answer, but it isn't bad


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## Equus_girl

You really can't hurt a horse if you smack it on its shoulder, chest, rump, ect. A horse will kick or bite another horse a lot harder than you could ever slap it. I don't believe in slapping a horse around the head though. I've seen too many head shy horses. If a young horse has a nipping habit you could try flicking them on the nose and saying, "no" firmly but I don't believe in hitting their head.

I worked with one two-year old that was a brat. She would ram into you, bite and be overall very pushy. She had never been taught different and being a draft it was getting pretty dangerous. When she tried to shove me, I gave her a slap on her shoulder or chest and said "NO!" When she bit she got the same thing. Its not even so much a punishment as training them that when they do something bad they get a consistant undesirable result.


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## Solon

1dog3cats17rodents said:


> Smacking does not mean you lose your temper. IMHO it is a legitamite training tool. You don't see horses in the pasture saying "please move out of my space or I'll make you back up" No, they kick their a$$
> 
> Obviously hitting is not always the answer, but it isn't bad


Yep, it's not bad at all.


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## goldilockz

A smack here and there is about as "natural" as you can get when it comes to horses. If you want to go full natural horsemanship, start biting.


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## Solon

Or kicking.


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## close2prfct

I may get slammed for this but I'm gonna tell you a story.
When we got Jazz she was a weanling her fav thing to do was sneak up behind my oldest daughter and bite her. Thumping her nose, telling her no didn't work. So one day she walked up bit her and my daughter turned around and bit her right back..needless to say Jazz never attempted to bite her again. The same went with kicking she loved to cow kick and one day she was trying to bully her way past me while I was getting feed unloaded into the barn she was right up on me and would not budge for love nor money so I proceeded to cow kick her, not hard but enough that it got her attention and she backed off of me and let me go about my business.
We has humans do not have the physical strength to seriously injure a horse with a smack, bite or mild kick they get much worse from their horsey companions but it does teach them that you will be respected just as any dominant member of the herd. I know there are those that will take that to extremes and that is wrong,


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## 1dog3cats17rodents

Lol close2perfect. My grandfather is the nicest, most laid back guy around. He had a favorite horse that bit everyone but him, but he refused to believe it. One day the horse made the mistake of biting him. He turned around and bit the horse right on the nose! Worked like a charm, the horse never bit again!


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## Solon

My Grandpa did that to a biter too once! It worked. Horse never again attempted to bite anyone.


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## PaintHorseMares

I agree with everyone else...smacking is the human kick. Believe me, if a horse ever really tried to bite me, it would get a quick smack on the rump AND I would run it off, just like a lead horse would.


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## BackInTheSaddleAgain

I agree with everyone. My best friend smacked her horse on the lower neck because she was rearing in a practice arena. The judges approached her a few minutes later and told her she was no longer a competitor for abusing her horse. I'm still mad about that.


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## ilovemyPhillip

Im a NH girl too, but smacking is bad unless you kick the crap out of them. Of course there are better ways but sometimes its a training tool


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## Solon

ilovemyPhillip said:


> Im a NH girl too, but smacking is bad unless you kick the crap out of them. Of course there are better ways but sometimes its a training tool


It's bad _unless_ you kick the crap out of them? That doesn't make sense.


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## White Foot

Horses are too big of animals that don't know their own strengths so I feel we have to be aggressive. 

There is a difference between being aggressive and being abusers.


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## Royal Affair

I don't see anything wrong with give a horse a firm smack if you feel they need it. A smack from a human isn't going to hurt them; as long as you're not beating them repeatedly. In the wild horses bite and kick to show dominance, the stronger horse wins so it's not like were abusing them by giving them a quick little reminder who's boss.


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## mom2pride

My new horse is lowest on the totem pole at the farm, so I have to make sure I have my lead, or dressage whip, or handystick ready for the lead mare, and her cohort. The lead mare happens to be a Belgian, so there's no way I'm going to take any unnecessary guff from her. As soon as she starts charging my boy while I am walking him out of the pasture, I turn into her, wave my arms, and smack her in the chest with whatever I brought to protect myself and my horse with. She is learning to steer clear...the first trip out of the pasture was a nightmare, because she didn't care that I was there, she just wanted to get at poor Danni! As a general rule, I like to use as little pressure on a horse as possible, but if that means having to smack or swat him, I will.


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## Solon

Wow, it's too bad you have to keep your horse out with that group.


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## 1dog3cats17rodents

I feel your pain mom2prode! The first few times I got my boy out from his new pasture, I had to have my dad get lead ropes and protect us! Now he's the top boy, but I still don't take snot from the others. I have no problem smacking a horse that's biting/shoving the horse I'm leading


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## Audra0729

my 2 year old got smacked often when he was a yearling =/ he KNEW better yet continued to try to plow me over. he's better now but I had to use my crop on him a few times for him to understand what "mom's bubble" was. 
He never did it out of spite, he just wanted to be AS CLOSE AS POSSIBLE to me, like everyone said they don't understand that they can hurt you so easily.

"natural" is using their communication tools to work with them and establish an understading. Like what Cesar Millan does.... he uses force when needed but does it in the same way a pack leader would out in the wild. They understand their ways because horses are horses, THEY AREN'T HUMANS, they don't understand our ways, so don't treat them like they are "one of us".


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## QHDragon

I have no problem with smacking a horse if they are being an idiot, I will never be able to hurt the horse as bad as it will be able to hurt me. I will also elbow a horse in the shoulder or neck if I am leading them and they are trying to get in my space or are trying to run through a gait etc. Like I said I will never be as strong as a horse or be able to hurt me and I would rather smack them then end up hurt. I expect respect out of a horse that I am handling, even it's only for five minutes to help move horses around during chores.


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## White Foot

Audra, That is what I feel many horse owners are doing. They need to learn that horses are huge wild animals, not humans.


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## Spirithorse

Ceaser's method really does work for some dogs. I work at a vet clinic in the kennels and I use his ideas all the time. However, the force he uses works on the dogs b/c they are a PREDATOR. Force, punishment, etc. does not work on PREY animals b/c they don't understand it. They only understand that the human is acting like a predator, so they don't trust that. 



Audra0729 said:


> my 2 year old got smacked often when he was a yearling =/ he KNEW better yet continued to try to plow me over. he's better now but I had to use my crop on him a few times for him to understand what "mom's bubble" was.
> He never did it out of spite, he just wanted to be AS CLOSE AS POSSIBLE to me, like everyone said they don't understand that they can hurt you so easily.
> 
> "natural" is using their communication tools to work with them and establish an understading. Like what Cesar Millan does.... he uses force when needed but does it in the same way a pack leader would out in the wild. They understand their ways because horses are horses, THEY AREN'T HUMANS, they don't understand our ways, so don't treat them like they are "one of us".


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## goldilockz

Spirithorse said:


> Ceaser's method really does work for some dogs. I work at a vet clinic in the kennels and I use his ideas all the time. However, the force he uses works on the dogs b/c they are a PREDATOR. Force, punishment, etc. does not work on PREY animals b/c they don't understand it. They only understand that the human is acting like a predator, so they don't trust that.


You've never seen horses use force with each other?


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## Spirithorse

No I haven't. I've seen horses give each other plenty of warning, and if the horse doesn't move, the horse gets a kick, bite, etc. They use phases. That is not force. Force gives the animal no other choice. Force is predatory, and horses are obviously not predatory animals. Kicking and biting looks extreme to us, but it's just a part of how the herd establishes dominance. It works for them because the alpha is ANOTHER PREY ANIMAL. When a PREDATOR smacks a horse or inflicts any other kind of punishment, that's where it doesn't work. Horses are already born not trusting people, it's in their DNA, and if we punish and force them, the relationship will never be where it could be because the human is not acting "like a horse."


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## goldilockz

Spirithorse said:


> No I haven't. I've seen horses give each other plenty of warning, and if the horse doesn't move, the horse gets a kick, bite, etc. They use phases. That is not force. Force gives the animal no other choice. Force is predatory, and horses are obviously not predatory animals. Kicking and biting looks extreme to us, but it's just a part of how the herd establishes dominance. It works for them because the alpha is ANOTHER PREY ANIMAL. When a PREDATOR smacks a horse or inflicts any other kind of punishment, that's where it doesn't work. Horses are already born not trusting people, it's in their DNA, and if we punish and force them, the relationship will never be where it could be because the human is not acting "like a horse."


Do you realize that you just contradicted yourself? A kick or a bite IS force, what else would it be called? 

Humans use plenty of warning and "phases" when dealing with horses too. We don't just immediately kick or smack our horses. If my horse is being a jerk at the hitching post, I'll nudge him, push him, tell him no, and if none of that works, he gets a smack. 

People preach "natural horsemanship" but then balk if a human dares assert his or her dominance in the herd by doing the same thing a head mare would do: a pinch, smack, or kick. Nothing I do to my horse with just my hand is ever going to be as FORCEFUL as a kick from another horse.


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## smrobs

"If the horse is afraid, then work with him and show him that he has nothing to fear from you and he can depend on you for support. Never punish a horse for spooking or being scared because it will only make the problem worse. If the horse is aggressive or spoiled, often there will come a point when the only choice is you or him. Many times, that means hurting him before he hurts you. Although, once he stops the undesirable action, then you must stop the reprimand."

Sometimes, you do have to show a horse that even though it is a partnership, you are still the majority stockholder and make all the decisions. There really isn't anything "unnatural" about hitting a horse when it misbehaves, you just have to know when a good pop will be needed and when it doesn't fit the situation. The thing that is unnatural about the old "cowboy" training technique is the whole force the saddle on them, step aboard, and beat them until they submit thing. I have seen that many times and hate it.


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## Spirithorse

No, I did not contradict myself. You aren't understanding what I'm saying. It's all in the way the horse sees the human......and it's not in the same way he sees his alpha horse. It's in the energy we produce when we correct a horse. I never yell, I never smack, I never kick, I never jerk, any of that stuff. And my warmblood came to me a labeled biter, kicker, man hater and was said to be dangerous, vicious and unpredictable. When he did try to bite I NEVER smacked him. You can't get away with punishing a horse when he is giving you feedback, which is what a horse is doing when he bites, kicks, etc. It's because WE did something to cause that reaction. So for our mistake, the horse gets punished for it? I don't think so. My warmblood never even thinks about biting now. That's because I found out what the trigger was for his biting and worked on fixing the real issue, not just ignoring his feelings and punishing him when he tried to tell me how he was feeling about what was going on. Horses give us plenty of warning before they bite. If someone chooses to ignore the horse, well, it's their own fault if they get bitten. It's not the horse's fault the person wasn't paying attention.


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## smrobs

Spirithorse said:


> I've seen horses give each other plenty of warning, and if the horse doesn't move, the horse gets a kick, bite, etc. They use phases. That is not force. Force gives the animal no other choice.


Where I work, this is called the "Use of Force Continuum". And realistically, if a horse genuinelly didn't want to do something, we puny humans couldn't force them to.


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## Spirithorse

I'm not talking about forcing the horse from a phycical perspective. I'm talking about mental force.....some horses, if you are forceful enough and intimidate them enough, they will comply. It's very, very sad to see.


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## smrobs

That is why it is so important to realize when a punishment fits the situation and when it is just a misunderstanding. Understanding a horse is key and not all horses can be trained without a little bit of force. Some are aggressive from the day they are born and humans had nothing to do with it.


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## Spirithorse

I agree with you about it's always key to pay attention to your horse. However, I still don't agree with punishment.....physical or mental.


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## goldilockz

I am not going to just stand by and allow my horse to bowl me over because the "mistake" I made is not feeding him as fast as he would like. He will not be allowed to crowd me because he wants something omgrightnoworI'llstarve.

What is your solution to that issue? Just let him crowd me, just "understand him" and he'll learn?


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## Spirithorse

Have a line on him at first and if he comes forward back him up. If he took 2 steps forward, back him 4, 3 steps, back him 6, etc. He needs to learn patience. He has never been asked to be patient and wait before, otherwise he wouldn't show that kind of behavior. It's a really easy thing to fix. Oh, and I never allow a horse to come to me with a sour look on his face.


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## goldilockz

Every horse is different, and what works for your horse doesn't necessarily work for someone else's. That is the main flaw I see in the natural horsemanship techniques. The assumption is that these methods work for every single horse, and they just don't. 

BTW, he knows patience now. He is quite patient, he just wasn't patient at feeding time, until I taught him in a manner that he finally understood... *after *trying the method you outlined above. Before you go thinking I beat him into submission, I didn't. All it took was a couple of taps with a riding crop and he "got it".


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## Spirithorse

Umm, I never thought you beat your horse into submission. Come on.


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## goldilockz

I can't know what you might have thought, so I threw it in there to avoid confusion


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## Audra0729

first off kick, biting, etc IS FORCE in the horse world, their warning signs are pinned ears, a lifted leg and the swishing of the tail, etc.
the reference to Ceasar Millan was because he uses what dogs understand to deal with them. He doesn't EVER go straight to force on them. Which is the same as what us horse people should do, understand your horse and their signs before you "punish" them. 
and no, you shouldn't go straight to punishing them. There are other methods that smacking but unless a horse was beaten before a smack here and there isn't going to hurt them or effect how they see you.


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## Solon

It's about escalation. You warn the horse by used a direct stern voice, if the horse continues you give it a smack with your hand, if the horse continues you pop him with a crop. It doesn't usually take much to get the horse's attention.

But the whole idea of not punishing your horse when he misbehaves is asking for a load of trouble. And it's a ridiculous notion.

Too many NH people get themselves into trouble by that thinking. I've seen it more times than I would like. 

You can't go about shaking a leadrope at a horse or trying to verbally reason with the horse to get them to mind if they are misbehaving or being aggressive.


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## Spirithorse

I've never smacked my warmblood, who I already said was extremely aggressive when I got him, and is he aggressive anymore? No. Does he try to bite, kick, etc? No. The people who had him before smacked him, and with whips when he was "bad" and that only made his behavior worse. Can't blame him for hating people. I would, too. I've only done Parelli with him and the transformation he's made is incredible. He was in training with 2 professional trainers, one dressage and one eventing, and neither one of them could do a thing with him because of his behavior, so they said he was trash and the owner was going to have him put down. I find it interesting that an everyday, 20 year old horse owner can solve all his aggression problems when PROFESSIONALS couldn't. The only main difference between me and them is the fact that I do Parelli and they don't.


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## Solon

People get the *same* results *every* day with using some form of punishment when the horse acts out. Giving them a smack or a pop with a crop isn't going to hurt them physically or mentally. There may be some exceptions out there with severely abused horses but on the whole, there are plenty of horses out there that even with punishment are well-behaved and have no issues.


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## Spirithorse

Agree to disagree.


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## Equus_girl

I have to say that I agree, that when a horse has been abused and hit by people and they are terrified of people that you have to act different. I worked with a mare that had been abused terribly and once I gained her confidence I started riding her. She was already trained to some extent. Occasionally she would get stubborn and instead of kicking her sides, which would scare her (being an abused horse) I made her back up. When she got tired of it she was willing to go forward. Another horse I may give a bit of a kick if they are stubborn, because they are being a brat and certainally aren't afraid of people. 

But on the other hand I worked with a HUGE two-year old filly that was a brat. I had to give her slaps at times to protect myself. She is a wonderful horse today, has no fear of people, but is very respectful. I really believe it depends on the horse you are working with.

The mare I worked with that was abused, I did not give a slap when she did something wrong as I knew it would scare her and bring back bad memories. Typically, just a raised voice and firm "no" would get the desired result from her.


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## RiddlesDarkAngel5

there is absolutely nothing wrong with smacking a horse in the proper situations. I think the issue with NH is that they equate all smacks with hitting and beating. That's not what we mean. Sometimes a smack is necessary, especially when dealing with a horse that knows he's being a jerk and keeps doing it anyways. Spirithorse, it sounds like your horse was abused before you got him, so in your case it is probably a good idea that you don't use physical means to get your point across. But many horses won't respond to just repeatedly asking them not to do something. My horse, for instance, will occasionally be a jerk just because he's feeling naughty that day. Sometimes he wont hold his feet for me to clean. Now, he knows to hold his feet. he's been taught that so a quick smack to the side after a verbal warning has been ignored sets him straight and he's fine the rest of the grooming session. It really all depends on the horse, but believe me OP, you will not hurt or scar a horse simply by smacking them on any "meaty" part of their body. (the head of course is NOT an acceptable place to smack a horse unless there's no other choice, i.e. the horse is charging you).


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## goldilockz

I agree, Riddles. I think the term "smack" is being interpreted differently. I have never had to "smack" my horse (with or without a riding crop) any harder than I'm willing to smack myself.


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## Solon

From the NH types we have at the barn, they say no punishment - no touching the horse. That's why they chase them around with the leadropes leaving the horse to look at them like WTH am I supposed to do about that?


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## goldilockz

Solon said:


> From the NH types we have at the barn, they say no punishment - no touching the horse. That's why they chase them around with the leadropes leaving the horse to look at them like WTH am I supposed to do about that?


No touching?? How do they get anything done that way? 

I guess I just don't understand. If a smack on the shoulder is supposed to be so "unnatural and cruel", what is a bit that you pull back on in their sensitive mouths? How do you get a horse to go without nudging it with your feet, sometimes harder than others to make it "go" when it doesn't want to?


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## Spirithorse

I am not saying a smack is someone beating their horse. I think you are looking at the extremes of the NH world, not the majority. I agree, there are some fruit cakes out there that think anyone who doesn't follow some form of NH are abusive. That's not the case. I for one have NEVER said that. I have close friends who don't follow any form of NH, and I love them just as much as my NH friends!  

As for riding a horse in a bit, I do not pull on his mouth to stop him. I use my seat. Pulling with 2 reins is a no-no IMO. And getting a horse to go, well, I certainly don't kick or nudge a horse. That makes them dull. I use phases in my squeeze, and I never squeeze harder than my calf muscle tightening. The horse CAN feel me, so there is no need to get stronger or kick. Then I just gently irritate the horse using motion above him with a string or the end of my mecate reins. Sometimes you need to tap them, but I certainly don't smack him. Once I get forward motion, now it's time to make going forward fun, interesting and worth his while. A brace in the body (not going) started as a brace in the mind. So now it's up to me to figure out what that mental brace is and fix it. Once I do, and I take care of his needs, I won't have the issue of the horse not going forward when asked to.

My warmblood was not abused physically. Yes, he was smacked with whips, but nothing that would constitute abuse. It was more mental abuse, people trying to force their will upon him for the first 6 years of his life. He was pushed into cross country jumping at 3, almost 4, and came out of that extremely unconfident and would go catatonic when asked to go over a simple ground pole when I first got him. Now he's jumping over 2'5 confidently, with a lovely, willing look on his face.


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## Zab

It's ok to hit the horse as hard as necessary in 2 situations:

The horse attacks you, bites, kicks, pushes you around, whatever. No matter the reason, that is never ok to do. If the horse is panicked, it's a good idea to just get out of the way, but untill you can do that you are allowed to defend yourself. Your life is more important than the horses possible future fear of smacking hands.. If you have a horse that bites out of fear or whatever, make sure it always have enough space to move away. So when/if you smack it, it can chose to get away instead of biting back. And of course try not to provoke a bite, but make the horse come to you out of curiosity or something.

Or, the horse walks into you, physically pushes you around etc. That's also never ok, no matter the circumstanses. But also, make sure it can back/move away from you...

But, with the right reactions before these things happen, they won't happen. We're all humans and make mistakes tho.

Only time when hitting a horse is wrong, is if you havn't given it enough nice chances to behave, it doesn't understand or/and it can't get away from you... The purpose of such a strong act is, afterall ''get away, you're not welcome here by this or that reason''.. it can never really mean anything else.

Well, according to me. And again, you don't get in these situations if the horse has been handeled right from the start.


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## Solon

Actually, there are horses out there that from time to time will try and push the limits, trained or not. My boss has his 'you're-not-the-boss-of-me' moments. Sometimes he'll listen to a raised voice and sometimes he needs a bit firmer reminder that he isn't the boss.

So I don't think it's a matter of the horse being handled right from the start, they sometimes want to exert control and need a reminder. I have yet to see the ultimate perfect horse out there that never misbehaves.


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## Zab

No, most horses tries to push the limits, but if you respond to it in the right way at the very first signals from the horse, you don't come to the point where you need to smack it. That's what I mean. 
Training a horse is an ongoing progress, you cannever say ''ok, now he knows how to stand, I'm done'' but always be prepared to correct the behaviour again with as gentle means as possible.


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## Solon

I see what you are saying now. Usually all I need to do is point my index finger at Solon and he understands what it means. Then he has those days where he's just not going to listen and if he doesn't respond to my voice then I'll pop him on the shoulder. It gets his attention. Then he behaves. It's not a traumatic event like a lot of NH people would like to make people believe.


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## danastark

I agree with treating a horse like the lead mare would. Usually I'll use my voice (like the mare laying her ears back), then if they don't listen I get "big" and start waving my hands (like the mare shaking her head and coming closer) and if they still don't respond, a good whack certainly does the job. I usually only have to do this if they are invading my space, nipping, etc. I've had my Cody since he was a yearling, he's about 1800 lbs. now and HAS to respect my space or I'm in trouble. He is not the least afraid of me, comes when called, follows me around like a puppy dog so getting whacked hasn't traumatized him in the least. I agree that it's like a warning kick from another horse.


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## free_sprtd

Everyone has spoke their opinion very well in this thread, just wanted to pop in a reminder about keeping posts civil and thoughtful. So far so good  but with a controversial topic as this, I would hate to see it have to be closed due to arguments. Thanks guys!


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## Calamity Jane

horselover85 said:


> hey everyone!
> I`m a big fan of natural horsemanship, and try to use it with every opportunity. However I`m always surrounded by a bunch of semi-traditional cowboys.
> Mostly, they`re all pretty good at not forcing the horses, but sometimes Ive witnessed a loss of temper.


Semi-traditional cowboys. Interesting way of putting it. 
I always think of real cowboys as Tom Dorrance, Ray Hunt, Buck Brannaman. 



> Either way, the only 2 situation I have ever smacked a horse partially because I didnt know waht else to do, and I`ve been thinking about it lots and maybe you guys can help:


 That's usually when people smack horses, when they don't know what else to do.:wink:



> one was when I was trying to pick out hooves, the horse kept kicking out hard and I kept sayin quit sternly, and making them move over, until the 3rd time I said quit and gave a smack on the hindquarter (but not hard)


I've seen people smack horses because of this same reason....If I'm asked to come up with a solution...I can usually find that the horse is kicking out because either the farrier/handler is pulling the foot too high or too much to the side and causing the horse to feel unbalanced or it simply hurts, or the horse was never really taught to give the foot and relax, or the horse is loaded with energy and finds it hard to stand still....

All have other solutions other than smacking the horse (reacting to the horse reacting to something else)..... 

Possible NH solutions: disengage the hips to put the energy to better use, find a better way to raise the foot (that doesn't hurt or unbalance the horse), teach the horse to give and relax the foot, find out if the horse is "out" someplace else..that might cause the horse to feel discomfort. 



> the other one was when a horse tried to bite me, and i made them back up out of my space, the horse then bit me in the neck so I smacked him in the shoulder. this particular horse was biting out of dominance, not fear.


Possible causes: horse is being dominant toward the human ("I wanna move your feet, because I don't believe you as the leader") or boredom ("I'm bored and I don't think of you as the leader, so I am going to move your feet")

Possible NH solutions: Hurry up and move the horse's feet...let's say, tell the horse to back up now = you prove to the horse that he can't move his feet, and if he tries, then you will move his feet (whoever moves whoever's feet is the leader, the other is the submissive one) = you gain top pecking order position and if you don't allow your horse to walk into your space when he feels like it, but only when he's invited, he'll not bother to try to bite you in the first place. 



> how could i have better handle these situations, i cant ask anyone i know because they smack their horses for not standing still when mounting, and refusing to go somewhere (which I would never do! ever ever! I`m extremely patient with horses)


That's the trouble with just smacking the horse for whatever reason...you may find yourself constantly smacking him for this...smacking him for that...

The truth that I've found, is that the horse just knows what is. He doesn't lie. He does what he does for a reason, and mostly it's to let you know something that you need to figure out. When you take the time to figure out your horse, what he's trying to tell you ("you don't seem like a leader today" or "I'm in pain." or "I don't fully understand what you want." or ....?) Then you can stop reacting to the horse (smacking) and you can instead guide him, teach him to follow, teach him to "respect" so to speak and teach him to trust. 

I have a client who's horse would constantly nip at her. He was telling her he didn't believe she was leadership material. But soon as she shaped up, he stopped doing that and hasn't offered to do it ever since. He just stopped. Why? Because she proved to him that she's leader and therefore, has given him reason to stop nipping altogether. 

Only when you take the time to listen to your horse can you stop acting like a predator or a reactive person....and more like a leader, and your horse can act more like a follower/partner....I believe this strongly because the horses have told me this many times, and when I ignore their signals, they let me know I'm wrong.

Yeah, I'm NH all the way, baby.:lol: 

All this said..I'm not knocking anyone who chooses to smack their horses. I don't care what other people do, as long as it doesn't go into obvious abuse. I just have found a way that has worked better for me all around, in answer to your question....what would be the "NH" thing to do...


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## Nutty Saddler

I watch my herd behave in the field, and try to behave as a herd member would. I very rarely have to smack any of mine as they know their place with me, on the odd occasion one of them tries to run through me or gets a bit pushy and then I behave as any herd member would - either charge them and if that dosen't work I give them a smack as a reminder as to who they are and who I am
Horses face each other off, bite , kick and charge , at all times there is a reason for this, so long as I stick within their reasons I am seen as a member of the herd not a predator so even though my horses know I will smack them they aren't afraid of me because they know that I need a reason for me to do so and they know what the reasons are so the whole issue is sorted out without me generally having to smack them at all.

I also move my herd around, either I lead them to better pastures or chase them away from where I don't want them - both of these a lead herd member would do, so I am establishing myself as herd leader by doing this. 

One thing I have learnt about behavior in a herd is that although you can be associated as part of the herd - the horses know that you are not a horse. The horses see me as part of the herd as they would a deer or a bison so I have to make it clear who is stronger them or me.

Calamity Jane is correct when she says that there is normally a reason for your horses behavior, If you smack your horse innapropriatly you will make matters worse - if as she says you are lifting the leg too high and causing pain the horse will react to this - if you then smack the horse what message do you think you are relaying

You cause me pain - I tell you by moving my leg - you then cause me more pain. A horse dosen't understand this and soon you will have a horse that will not lift it's leg up at all - or worse will try to kick anyone who goes near its legs ( and this will be your fault - not the horses )


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## Zab

Solon said:


> I see what you are saying now. Usually all I need to do is point my index finger at Solon and he understands what it means. Then he has those days where he's just not going to listen and if he doesn't respond to my voice then I'll pop him on the shoulder. It gets his attention. Then he behaves. It's not a traumatic event like a lot of NH people would like to make people believe.


I agree, and we're only humans.. so even if it is possible to never reach the smacking stage, we can't always know how to react in all situation and at the right timing.

I've been pretty mean to my horse at times, I admit, and without him deserving it. (No, I'm not proud of that) And he's still a nice, trusting horse, so it can't have been that traumatic.. a smacking in the right time certainly isn't.


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## TroubledTB

goldilockz said:


> I am not going to just stand by and allow my horse to bowl me over because the "mistake" I made is not feeding him as fast as he would like. He will not be allowed to crowd me because he wants something omgrightnoworI'llstarve.
> 
> What is your solution to that issue? Just let him crowd me, just "understand him" and he'll learn?


Couldn't have said it better myself :mrgreen:


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## TroubledTB

Solon said:


> It's bad _unless_ you kick the crap out of them? That doesn't make sense.


I think there is a more tactful way of describing what this person is trying to say. It is important when correcting a horse, in any manner, to go all the way, and not give up. That said, if using a smack to reprimand a horse, you have to actually get their attention, not just tap them and say, "I'm sorry I hit you but I really would like you to stop doing that." What you have sucessfully done is put in your two cents, and the horse may or may not consider it good advice. But to truly correct the behavior you have to make a BOLD statement that "No, that is not acceptable behavior and there is no reason for you to continue in this manner." The difference IMO is as simple as the difference between a fly and a bee, when using a crop don't flick your horse with your hand or you have become a fly, a nusance that needs to be squashed, instead be prepared to give him a stinger. A bee sting is something that hurts, but not excessively, and stays with you. You don't forget about that bee sting for at least a couple of days. You also know exactly why you got it, and you will think twice before messing with a bee again. This is a clear line drawn, not an opinion, and your horse will probably appreciate this in the long run (because as with kids and horses we have deluded ourselves into a "you'll thank me for this when your older" philosophy) or atleast will understand whatever it was he did, you did not like it at all. When I come to a point with a horse where I feel a line must be drawn over a specific subject then I must be prepared to go all the way, so we don't ever have to discuss the issue again. I call this a "Come to Jesus" meeting. This is the point where the horse will meet his maker and realize who his true lord and savior is. This is only when the issue is exteremly important and I am completely ready to stand my ground. Then I only have to have one big fight and the issue is resolved instead of debating over it and possibly losing ground because I am challenged everytime and sometimes you don't always feel like fighting. So in order to fight as few times as possible Yes sometimes you have to have a blowout. That is what I think our friend was trying to say.

About biting, does anyone actually know of an example where a horse bites out of fear? I thought biting was a solely aggressive act, and they kick when they are trying to get away but still feel they should make sure you don't follow. I really can't think of a reason (except abused animals because they can react totally wacky) or a time I have seen a horse bite out of fear. With that aside, I agree to never hit an animal in the face, but if they charge with their teeth out and I raise my hand in defense and they run into it, well its on them. Did I stratigically make sure my hand was positioned where impact was inevitable, never! :twisted:


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## Zab

TroubledTB said:


> About biting, does anyone actually know of an example where a horse bites out of fear? I thought biting was a solely aggressive act, and they kick when they are trying to get away but still feel they should make sure you don't follow. I really can't think of a reason (except abused animals because they can react totally wacky) or a time I have seen a horse bite out of fear.


Fear feeds violense and aggression if the horse can't get away (like in a stall). I know horses that didn't dare to put their butt to you, they bit instead.

Anyways, I agree with following theough and that even if the mistake from start was yu missing one of the horses signals, it doesn't mean you can let the horse behave dangerously. Just learn what you as a human did wrong so that next time you can stop the behaviour before even smacking the horse.


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## Solon

I don't think when people smack their horse it's "sorry I hit you but I want you to stop doing this". When I smack he gets smacked and I'm not sorry about it. He's misbehaving and it needs to stop. That's a far cry from a beating and the smack doesn't do anything but startle him and get his attention. I don't know if it stings like a bee. He's never really said. But it stops what is going on and that was the point.


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## horselover85

the kicking horse in this case.... I'm very gentle when lifting hoofs. I always get the horse to shift their weight first, and I don't pick up the hoof super high or to the side like i see others do.

i agree with biting, kicking, etc being a symptom of a larger scale problem that could be solved differently, but what happens if you're a person like me, that's around and handle a lot of different horses?


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## Audra0729

Solon said:


> I don't know if it stings like a bee. He's never really said.


I LOL'd at that =] My horses have never told me if it hurts or not either.

I am guilty of smacking my horses mouth, well my 2 year olds, becuase he bit me, he got a pop in the mouth. He's not head shy by any means because he KNOWS better than to bite... why he bites I have no idea, he hasn't in a while.


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## Calamity Jane

horselover85 said:


> the kicking horse in this case.... I'm very gentle when lifting hoofs. I always get the horse to shift their weight first, and I don't pick up the hoof super high or to the side like i see others do.
> 
> i agree with biting, kicking, etc being a symptom of a larger scale problem that could be solved differently, but what happens if you're a person like me, that's around and handle a lot of different horses?


Why would it be different if you're around and handle a lot of different horses? I'm around/handle different horses all the time, but the "rules" are always the same. Check pain off the list, imbalance off the list, then seeing if the horse is reacting out of fear vs. "I was never really taught to stand still willingly" or "I've got the wiggles today" = what steps to take.

For example, when a horse is wiggly and kicks out because he's ansy about standing still and giving his hoof willingly...I disengage the hip in a hurry. Then allow him to choose standing still. He moves again. I disengage the hip again. Every time he offers to move/kick, I disengage the hip. It typically doesn't take a horse long to figure out: "gee, every time I kick out, my butt moves over and my back feet cross in a hurry and that's a lot of work!"....."what if I just stand still and relax?" = no pressure to move at all = horse makes the "right" choice easily.

A horse that's scared, hasn't been desensitized enough, I start with being able to toss the rope or end of a whip around his foot/leg at a stand still and add movement. Soon as he's cool with that, then I pick up the hoof with the lead line, then my hand. 

Another rule that I picked up from Dr Robert Miller: I always have 3 points of my body touching the horse. My shoulder, my elbow and my hand. If the horse kicks out, he pushes me away, stead of my taking the full brunt of the kick. I haven't been kicked at yet (knock on wood) when I do this. 

There's an old cowboy idea of grabbing the tail, if you have a hold of the tail, the horse won't kick, I don't know how true that is, I rather do the desensitizing or the disengaging of the hip.


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## Zab

If you're around a lot of horses it usually means that you're not the only one around them.
If one person goes against what they're used to, while the rest of the people stick to the old, it's just confusing and non consequent for the horse.


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## HorseLover09

Heck if you can picture it, I laugh at myself now and thank god I was the only "human" in the pasture that day , but my filly used to try to bite me (playing) and then she got into this bad habit of charging you wanting to play like foals do but Im not a horse I cant play like that, so one day I waited for her to come running at me and I spun around real quick and threw my hand in the air towards her and yelled " no mam" ( like some black stallion moment, "Sheetan") . I had to do that I think once more and she hasnt done it since...


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## Spirithorse

There are better ways to correct a horse than being aggressive and smacking or hitting them.


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## Solon

It depends on the horse and the situation.


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## Calamity Jane

Zab said:


> If you're around a lot of horses it usually means that you're not the only one around them.
> If one person goes against what they're used to, while the rest of the people stick to the old, it's just confusing and non consequent for the horse.


 That's a good point. But if you stay the same, then it won't confuse the horse (you've heard of horses that are better for the trainer than for the owner, right?) 

The horse will simply realize that you are worth listening to and he'll remember what you taught him, how to be around you....even though the horse might continue to be a problem to someone else who doesn't know how/what they're doing. 

It's not an ideal...it's of course better to have everyone who handles the horse on the same page....but people are harder to train than horses.:shock:


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## Audra0729

I agree with Calamity, When I ride other peoples horses I always ask how they are ridden and I EXPECT them to listen to me, do they test me? yes they do! do they get away with it? hell no.
To be honest, when I went to test rode my Clyde Mare, she tested me, big time! I can also tell you that after she realized she wouldn't get away with it, she respected me and we bonded immediately.


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## ChingazMyBoy

Equus_girl said:


> You really can't hurt a horse if you smack it on its shoulder, chest, rump, ect. A horse will kick or bite another horse a lot harder than you could ever slap it. I don't believe in slapping a horse around the head though. I've seen too many head shy horses. If a young horse has a nipping habit you could try flicking them on the nose and saying, "no" firmly but I don't believe in hitting their head.
> quote]
> 
> I agree with this, I would never hit/slap/punch (Do Anything) to a horses head area, although my horse gets a pat on the muzzle when he is good, apperantly he likes it?


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## Zab

Calamity Jane said:


> That's a good point. But if you stay the same, then it won't confuse the horse (you've heard of horses that are better for the trainer than for the owner, right?)
> 
> The horse will simply realize that you are worth listening to and he'll remember what you taught him, how to be around you....even though the horse might continue to be a problem to someone else who doesn't know how/what they're doing.
> 
> It's not an ideal...it's of course better to have everyone who handles the horse on the same page....but people are harder to train than horses.:shock:


That still depends.
Are you the main tainer or the one handeling the horse the most, sure, it might very well turn out that way.
Are you one of the kids on a riding school, see the horse maybe once or twice a week..it's not likely to happen.
And some horses just don't learn the differense but get confused by it very easy.


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## Spirithorse

I agree with Calamity. That is very true. The horse can tell when someone knows their stuff and when someone doesn't. The horse will listen to you if he feels you are worth listening to.


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## Solon

My horse listens to me perfectly, even getting himself smacked once in awhile. So what's your point? That if you hit a horse he's not going to listen? That doesn't hold for the majority of horses out there. Like it was mentioned, abuse cases are entirely different.

Zab's reply was really good.

And yes a horse can tell if you know what you are doing and they will often take advantage of it.


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## Zab

Another part is that while smacking a horse normally graps its attention immediatly, working to prevent any kind of correction takes quite much more training to work, especially on a horse that's used to smacking (like getting a light smack on the shoulder to stand still), they're not as open to other body language since humans often send out confusing signals when they're not thinking about it. 

So while a horse that's used to very subtle signals will probably function very well to a determined and firm person that uses smacking once in a while, a horse that's used to smacking won't understand the subtle person who never smacks, since the horse is desensetized to subtle human signals.
That is, if these people both go in and handle the horse for 5 minutes in regular every day stuff. 
If both persons were handeling the horse on a regular basis, the smacker would get himself understood first, but the non-smacker would probably too get his message trough after a while, and possibly get an even nicer horse that listened more. But it would take that he spent a lot of time with it.

Also, some of the non-smacking stuff written here, are actually worse, psycologically, to the horse than a smack. Like pushing the horse off balance if he waves with the hindlegs. They might also be more effective and clear, but they're not more gentle.

And smacking the horse in the right time is never wrong, but how to handle a situation is always up to the situation at hand. If you can get away with more gentle means, of course you should do it, f you know a way that's more clear to the horse and that shows him what you want or won't accept more clearly than a smack, that's of course to prefer. But if you have to smack the horse, by any reason, it's not like you're hurting him for life, but is a rather mild correction actually. The biggest problem with it is that it doesn't, in itself, say what's wrong or what you want the horse to do. Smacking a horse that won't stay still is pointless if the horse doesn't already know it's supposed to stand still, since the smack doesn't in any way say ''stand still'' but if anything it say the opposite. If the horse knows it's supposed to stand still, a smack might be the most effective way to get your point through. Putting the horse back to the same place over and over again might bore the horse out and work too, but if it already know what's expected of it, the smack will probably do the job faster. If the horse is taught to stand still by being moved back to the right place before, it can be an idea to move it back once, and if that doesn't help, smack it and move it back the second time. Everything isn't black and white.

But before smacking a horse (rather lightly) you have to know that the horse knows what's expected from it, or, the smack itself tells the horse what you want (like smacking the horse wherever you can reach if he's running into you, it will tell the horse to move away which is what you want it to do) and also, as with any correction or trainng, the horse must be able to do what you want. If it should stand still, don't place it on a threadmill, if it should move away from you, don't tie it to the wall.
And, of course, the gentler means you can use is the better, as long as they're clear to the horse.


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## smrobs

That is why it is so important to start low and escalate as necessary. If I have a horse who won't hold still, first I consider why; is he young and doesn't know any better? is he in pain? does he know better and just doesn't want to? You have to handle the situation accordingly to those questions and many more. If the horse knows better, an occasional pop on the shoulder can correct the problem. However, if they are young, it will only confuse them. I start with a firm "whoa", then if that doesn't work, I bump them on the nose with the halter, then if it still doesn't work and I believe the situation warrants it, I may give them a pop on the shoulder or rump (depending on where I am and which way the horse is moving).


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## Spirithorse

A horse should never have an "occasional" smack.....problems should be fixed, not just handled in the moment. In all the years I've been around horses, I have yet to see a horse who has been completely cured of biting when smacking is used as punishment. The horse STILL bites...it might not be often, but it STILL happens, and it shouldn't. I have not once laid a hand on my warmblood when he tried to bite in the past, and does he try to bite now? No. It doesn't even cross his mind.


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## Zab

But biting isn't exactly the only reason you might smack a horse..

And I know foals that was cured from biting/nibling by getting a light smack under their chin every time they did it. They did it because that's a natural behaviour to a young horse, like ''come and play'' ''gimme attentin'' etc and a light smackunder the chin, or a word at first nibble and a smack at bite, gets the point through.


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## Solon

Maybe you haven't been around enough horses then. I've boarded at my barn for over 10 years and have seen it plenty of times. And the horses that get smacked haven't developed any attitude issues or anything else you may claim as a side effect for getting smacked. Not head shy or any other issue. They stop nipping and biting and that's that.

Your arguments don't hold. Your horse is doing fine doing it your way. Thousands of other horses do just fine with people disciplining them with a more forceful method and don't end up damaged mentally or otherwise.

Zab made a great point with this statement:

_Also, some of the non-smacking stuff written here, are actually worse, psycologically, to the horse than a smack. Like pushing the horse off balance if he waves with the hindlegs. They might also be more effective and clear, but they're not more gentle._


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## Spirithorse

LOL ok, sure, in my 13 years I haven't been around enough horses....sure. 

I actually don't think your arguments hold, like I said earlier, agree to disagree.


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## wild_spot

My horse is one who has quit biting with a pop on the nose as a reaction to it. Now, he NEVER bites, and the ONLY time he shows the warning signs are when he has pain in his back from his previous saddle issues, and that is a form of communication that I read and react to, it never comes to biting.

Success? Heck yes.

He is also super affectionate, has never shown a fear response. A pop on the nose or a pop on the rump when he used to lift a hind leg in warning has NOT affected him adversley in anyway.


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## Misfit

I have a feeling some of you will hate me.

Disclaimer: I am not a horse abuser, have a very good relationship with all the horses I deal with, no fear of me what so ever.

There are two things I stand by when dealing with horses.

One, is the 3 second rule (I term it the "galinda/wicked witch of the west phenomenon" when I"m babysitting). To start out with, you are sweetness, you are light, rainbows and puppydogs. Horse steps over the line, for the next three seconds the horse thinks he is about to DIE. You are big, you are LOUD, you are scary and ****ed. Channel your inner pmsing hormonal female and let em have it. After 3 seconds, you are back to being sugar, spice and everything nice like nothing ever happened. (Of course, with kids, you don't do it quite as drastically. Parents don't seem to like that)

For some horses, it's easier to convince them they're about to die than others. Some, it's a firm talking to. Others, you are womping them as hard as you can in the neck while yelling in their ear. You want to sell it, but not traumatize them.

The other method is quite similar. Used by mothers everywhere, 'Come to Jesus Meetings' strike fear in the hearts of small children around the globe. For horses, it usually involves me, the horse, a dressage whip and a lead shank while we go over the finer parts of being civilized. It's the equivalent of a very stern talking to. "Okay mr horse, we're going to stop now. What do you want to do? Oh, you want to plow me over? *annnh* wrong answer. Do you want to try that one again? Oh, you want to stop too? What a good boy you are!"

One thing to keep in mind is that there's a time and a place for strong discipline. I'm not going to go bat crap crazy on a horse because it takes a step sideways on crossties. If said horse tries to kick me, said horse will be rethinking that decision very quickly.

Usually, I'm very reasonable. But when it comes to safety, screw being a softy and do what works.


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## Nutty Saddler

Misfit

I won't hate you at all - you're not one of the - fluffy bunny brigade -- 

If anyone out there says that horses are all sweet and kindness then they are stupid.

I myself have been attacked and run over ( literally shouldered onto the ground ) so I am fully aware of what a horse can do.


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## smrobs

Spirithorse said:


> A horse should never have an "occasional" smack.....problems should be fixed, not just handled in the moment. In all the years I've been around horses, I have yet to see a horse who has been completely cured of biting when smacking is used as punishment. The horse STILL bites...it might not be often, but it STILL happens, and it shouldn't. I have not once laid a hand on my warmblood when he tried to bite in the past, and does he try to bite now? No. It doesn't even cross his mind.


Spirit, I am not trying to start a fight with the following statement. I notice that you are always talking about this _one particular_ horse and how these particular methods worked wonders with _him_. Is that the only problem horse you have ever worked with? And it has been said many times; abuse cases are a whole different ball game, you _have_ to take a soft approach to them to keep from further breaking their confidence and ruining their mind. However, if the horse knows what is expected of him and is just feeling aggressive or otherwise naughty that particular day, an attention getting smack on the shoulder will often cure his grumpies. Horses do have feelings and thoughts, yes. However, they do not understand the psychoanalytical touchy-feelie personality types that us humans try to force on them and label them with. We cannot try to think of the horse as anything other than a horse and to truely connect and understand them, _we_ must think and act like a horse. In the horse world, the top of the escalation scale means either a bite or a kick. That means punishment for undesirable behavior when warnings are not sufficient.


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## goldilockz

Spirithorse said:


> LOL ok, sure, in my 13 years I haven't been around enough horses....sure.
> 
> I actually don't think your arguments hold, like I said earlier, agree to disagree.


You keep saying agree to disagree, but you keep arguing. And you're getting very rude and condescending, in my opinion. Not all horses are the same. 

Just let it go already. 



Nutty Saddler said:


> Misfit
> 
> I won't hate you at all - you're not one of the - fluffy bunny brigade --
> 
> If anyone out there says that horses are all sweet and kindness then they are stupid.
> 
> I myself have been attacked and run over ( literally shouldered onto the ground ) so I am fully aware of what a horse can do.


The fluffly bunny brigade :lol:


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## Nutty Saddler

I'm with Smrobs on this one.

Spirithorse - Roshi - a 16.2 anglo-arab that I had would have eaten you alive. He put two people in hospital before I got him ( and yes I DID know about his past before I took him on ), added to this he charged me onto the floor and ran me over. Roshi was so bad that I was the only allowed anywhere near him - and I had to carry a big stick for protection ( and I'm being serious - he would and did, attack anyone who went near him ) .

I have re-trained about 40 horses and I'm telling you - sometimes it is necessary to smack them or they will kill you.


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## mls

smrobs said:


> Spirit, I am not trying to start a fight with the following statement. I notice that you are always talking about this _one particular_ horse and how these particular methods worked wonders with _him_. Is that the only problem horse you have ever worked with? And it has been said many times; abuse cases are a whole different ball game, you _have_ to take a soft approach to them to keep from further breaking their confidence and ruining their mind. However, if the horse knows what is expected of him and is just feeling aggressive or otherwise naughty that particular day, an attention getting smack on the shoulder will often cure his grumpies. Horses do have feelings and thoughts, yes. However, they do not understand the psychoanalytical touchy-feelie personality types that us humans try to force on them and label them with. We cannot try to think of the horse as anything other than a horse and to truely connect and understand them, _we_ must think and act like a horse. In the horse world, the top of the escalation scale means either a bite or a kick. That means punishment for undesirable behavior when warnings are not sufficient.


 
Absolutely.

Again, again, again, again - NOT ONE method will work for every horse. A good handler will give and take as necessary to establish respect with the horse.


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## QHChik

Horses are 1000 lb creatures. A smack on the shoulder, belly, neck, etc is really not going to hurt them. It will make noise and get their attention, but its not going to cause them bodily harm in my opinion. What I do think it does though, is get their attention and let them know that I'm really not amused by what they are doing.


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## ilovemyPhillip

oh whoops stupid key board. I meant to say that a single smack is ok, not kicking the crap out of them.


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## Solon

Spirit - you've gotten plenty of examples of how it's working for the rest of the world. I agree it seems to be working for _your_ horse. But I think you need to concede that it's not as damaging as you would have everyone believe.


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## Zab

QHChik said:


> Horses are 1000 lb creatures. A smack on the shoulder, belly, neck, etc is really not going to hurt them. It will make noise and get their attention, but its not going to cause them bodily harm in my opinion. What I do think it does though, is get their attention and let them know that I'm really not amused by what they are doing.


I agree that a smack wont hurt them, but not because they're big.
Just because they weight 1000lb, doesn't mean they're any less sensetive. They can still feel a fly on theor backs and a cut hurt as much for them as for us.


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## Sunny06

It's fine to *smack* a horse. End of discussion--but it DOES depend WHERE. On the head? Big no-no. On the shoulder,neck,chest,etc? That's fine. Some horses won't even react to that (such as MY lazy horse). Is it ok to smack with a crop? Sure--again, depending on WHERE. I once exploded on this horse/pony thing because she wouldn't get off me. I just so happened to have a handy lil dressage whip with me, and smacked her kinda hard. I felt kinda bad afterwards, but she got off of me.
So I guess it kinda depends on the horse a lil bit--like if it was abused before you and such. The chances of getting an ABUSED horse that WANTS to be really close to you is pretty slim, so you could probably rule that one out. Horses are [relatively] forgiving and only have an attention span of 3 seconds--that is a plain fact straight from a book, I believe. You don't want to traumatize the horse, but intimidate it enought to where it WANTS to get off you. Horses use their own violence in nature--kicking,biting,etc. So it's not like horses have never felt a lil bit of fear/pain before. A simple smack, IMO, is not pain. A smack--a REAL smack with a crop might sting a lil, but it's [probably] not going to scar the horse for life. It's just an at-this-moment-get-off-me-and-you-better-remember-to-STAY-off-me kinda thing. Not an remember-this-smack-for-life-or-prepare-to-die kinda thing.


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## mls

sunny06 said:


> It's fine to *smack* a horse. End of discussion--but it DOES depend WHERE. On the head? Big no-no.


If a horse bites me - I WILL go after the mouth.


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## Jessabel

Smacking a horse with your bare hand won't necessarily do much. It just annoys them. Although I'm guilty of it, as I'm sure most of us are, because it's just your first reaction when a horse does something naughty. 

The only time I would ever hit a horse is when they do something dangerous like kicking or biting. If they do, I'll kick the living daylights out of them and make them remember it for the rest of their lives. Horses do it to each other a heck of a lot harder, but it usually gets the message across. It sounds harsh, but they must understand what is and is not acceptable. And if you do it right, you only have to do it once. Vic tried to kick me one time and I kicked him back hard under the belly. He planted his foot right back down and never did it again. It about killed me to do it and I would have cried if I hadn't been so ****ed at him, but it worked.

Smacking/hitting a horse in the face is a huge no-no, though, no matter what. It doesn't take much in the right spot to kill a horse. And it's a sure-fire way to make them headshy, and they generally won't want anyone near their head. Good luck haltering and bridling a headshy horse. I hate it when trainers tell people to smack a horse in the nose (sometimes with a crop) when they do something bad. There's one like that at my barn right now and I only hope that the poor pony runs her *** over one of these days.


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## Solon

Smacking a horse in the face is not a huge no-no. Unless you're beating the crap out of the horse on his face. 

A lot of people will pop up under the lower lip if the horse bites. I've never seen it take more than a couple of times for the horse to understand NOT to bite. I've never seen it make a head shy horse.


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## westonsma

Audra0729 said:


> "natural" is using their communication tools to work with them and establish an understading. Like what Cesar Millan does.... he uses force when needed but does it in the same way a pack leader would out in the wild. They understand their ways because horses are horses, THEY AREN'T HUMANS, they don't understand our ways, so don't treat them like they are "one of us".


 
If you were teaching/working with a child from another country, say China for example, you can't just expect that he knows what you mean. If the peace sign means the finger over there, you don't want to miscommunicate, and you'll speak their language, or one they can understand. 

There is no way to "tell" your horse to get out of your space, especially if you have a dominant one. You have to literally speak horse by using your body to deflect harm to yourself.

Sorry judges, and you're lucky, cause if that was me you'd disqualified, I'd punch you in the back of the face and tell you I didn't want to be part of your show anyway.


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## Sunny06

mls said:


> If a horse bites me - I WILL go after the mouth.


^^ That is understandable..That is the ONLY reason I'd ever smack one in that area tho..For the [above] poster(s), it is prime head-shy area. My horse is such a dope..He acts like he's on drugs most of the time--goofy,easy going, a little on lazy side;if he gets his leg stuck in a hay net, he sits and actually WAITS for me to come and get it out instead of freaking out like most horses would do..
For a while we worked on getting OFF me, meaning I'd say "NO!" and smack him in the chest with the lead..Sometimes he'd go back,other times he wouldn't. So on those "wouldn't" times, he'd end up getting hit in the head with the lead rope--THEN he'd back up..It eventually came to the point where he became a little bit head-shy..He'd raise his head when I went to pet him,etc. I asolutely could not believe it! He was sooo not that way--never been. So even on the horses that you don't think can get that way, there is always a chance they can. I personally would not hit there. There are so many other places, why bother? Unless of course they bite you--that's another story.


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## JustDressageIt

My horse kicked me 6 1/2 weeks ago. I'm in a brace and looking forward to a long recovery because of it. He caught hell for it, I did smack his rump a few times, but I was really in too much pain to do more. 
This past week he tried to kick again. I went up one side of him and down the other. I had him back up half the arena (were picking out feet to leave) and "kicked" him back with my hands. I had my 30 seconds to make him think he as going to die because of that kick. I did not abuse him, I did not do anything that I deemed to be anything over the top. 
He meekly lifted that leg and let me pick it out. 
If it's to stop a dangerous behaviour, I am all for correcting the horse, within reason.


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## westonsma

mls said:


> If a horse bites me - I WILL go after the mouth.


 
Me too! A quick punch in the lip isn't going to hurt him. My horse is 1200lbs. I'm 140. That'd be like my 9lb dog punching me. It ain't gonna hurt me anymore than I'll hurt my horse. 

I agree too that abuse is waaaay different than smacking a horse. Although yesterday, I learned that my OTTB is afraid of my lifting my hand up to adjust my sunglasses... he's obviously been whipped under saddle, and he was ready to jet with me on there!


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## NewHeart

Jessabel said:


> Smacking/hitting a horse in the face is a huge no-no, though, no matter what. It doesn't take much in the right spot to kill a horse. And it's a sure-fire way to make them headshy, and they generally won't want anyone near their head. Good luck haltering and bridling a headshy horse. I hate it when trainers tell people to smack a horse in the nose (sometimes with a crop) when they do something bad. There's one like that at my barn right now and I only hope that the poor pony runs her *** over one of these days.


Sorry, but I have to disagree with you. Hitting a horse on the face is not always going to make a horse headshy. My mare has bit me once the entire time I have owned her, when she did she got a quick smack to the mouth to let her that her behavior was not appreciated. She learned right then and there to associate biting me, with receiving a smack to the nose. Horses are intelligent animals, they learn how to associate one thing with another. 

Now, if I were to continuously keep hitting her face after she bit me it would be a different story, then I could see where she could become headshy. There is a big difference between hitting the face once, and doing so continuously. My mare is nowhere near being headshy, if anything she is a bit smarter now and knows better.


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## Sunny06

NewHeart said:


> Now, if I were to continuously keep hitting her face after she bit me it would be a different story, then I could see where she could become headshy. There is a big difference between hitting the face once, and doing so continuously. My mare is nowhere near being headshy, if anything she is a bit smarter now and knows better.


^^ Yes. That is what our point is. If you keep it up you will eventually run into more trouble. If you only do it once in a while it's not a big deal. I agree.


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## MN Tigerstripes

Spirithorse said:


> Have a line on him at first and if he comes forward back him up. If he took 2 steps forward, back him 4, 3 steps, back him 6, etc. He needs to learn patience. He has never been asked to be patient and wait before, otherwise he wouldn't show that kind of behavior. It's a really easy thing to fix. Oh, and I never allow a horse to come to me with a sour look on his face.





Zab said:


> Also, some of the non-smacking stuff written here, are actually worse, psycologically, to the horse than a smack. Like pushing the horse off balance if he waves with the hindlegs. They might also be more effective and clear, but they're not more gentle.


I agree with Zab here. To a herd or a pack animal the very worst thing you can do to it is separate it from the herd. It makes them vunerable to "attack" from other animals. The whole NH thing of moving the horse away from you when it misbehaves is a punishment and a very effective one. It works great with dogs too. I've used both with Soda and my dog and they've both worked in different situations. I don't beat either one of them, but sometimes a well placed and timed smack can work wonders.


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## Sunny06

The punishment that goes with a smack is not always pain--sometimes it's just the sudden sound that can bring a horse back to attention.


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## Spirithorse

I actually have worked with more than one horse using the training methods I've described  One of which, in particular, I worked with on a weekly basis before I moved away. He was a pistol, had been spoiled rotten, been let to get away with murder, had his owner scared, would try to bite and kick, would rear when asked to do anything more than a walk, would lay down when asked to lunge.....oh yea, he was fun!  Even with his snotty behavior, I never once smacked him. His owner began to get more confidence watching me work with him and I'd coach her when she would take him, and now she's riding him for 2 hours (which is HUGE for her), she has her leadership down and she's very confident, and he's doing great! I get weekly reports on him lol. 

Oh, and I don't have to concede to anything. I am firm in my beliefs because I KNOW they work (with more than one horse  ) and I've used both sides of the argument....smacking vs. what I know now. I'll take what I know now.


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## goldilockz

You don't have to concede. But if you're going to keep saying "Agree to disagree", then you should agree to do the same.


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## Misfit

<-- has a guilty confession to make.

Coach's jumper is thick as a brick. Like seriously, he is DUMB! He's also very rude (wants to be your best friend, i.e. rub his head on you, lean on you etc...). And very big. 

On multiple occasions, I have smacked that horse as hard as I possibly can... in the head (usually when he's rubbing on me). Normally I would feel guilty about this, but his reaction was to simply stare at me, blink, and then go back to rubbing. 

This taught me three things: 1. That horse is DUMB, 2. I need to start lifting weights, and 3. Hitting a horse in the face isn't necessarily scar them for life.


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## Solon

We have a horse JUST like this where I board. This horse is so dumb it makes Forrest Gump look like Einstein. Nothing can be used to discipline him because he just doesn't get it.


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## Misfit

^Ugh. I seriously hate this horse (nobody tell my coach). I mean, the thing is bred to the nines, can jump the moon etc... but he's seriously dumb.

My coach maintains that he has a learning disability. The other half of the time, she's convinced that he's just waaay smarter than we are and giving us the run around.

When I show up to groom and realize that he's not coming, I start doing a happy dance in the aisles. When my coach leaves me holding him, in order for her to go walk the course, she gives me her crop and says 'good luck'.

One point last year I got ****ed off and had the "THIS. ENDS. NOW." come to jesus meeting of the century with him. Luckily, he stood still the rest of the day.


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## Solon

That would be frustrating!!!


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## MacabreMikolaj

Interesting topic!

I always will always stand firm that animals (AND CHILDREN) need physical discipline from time to time. And quite frankly, I don't buy much into this "horses see us as predators" nonsense. I think it's somewhat ridiculous to compare horses born into domestication to wild horses. A foal that's been around humans since birth never experiences that fear. I've been around horses my entire life, and my grandpa WAS an old cowboy. If a horse acted out in a dangerous way like kicking or biting, that horse DID get beat. So, tell me why they all came running when he called? Tell me why they were all renowned for having the most beautiful temperments in the county? Tell me why they followed him around like puppy dogs, rubbing against him, asking for attention?

I guess it must have been all that fear of him eating them. Either that or they all had mental problems :lol:

My Arab mare kicked ONCE. My boyfriend was leading her as a 2 year old and she trotted ahead of him, lined him up and nailed him in the shoulder and sent him flying. I grabbed that leadrope so fast and proceeded to smack the daylight out of her rump. It was a flat end popper crop, so their was no real pain (they can't even leave a mark), just fast and furious, angry and noisy. She learned that I ALWAYS want to see her head and never her rump. Well, she's now 10 years old and to this day, she has never lifted a hoof to anyone again, never even swung her rump towards anyone. And she still comes running when I call and pouts when I'm not out to see her for a few days. She'll leave the safety of the herd to come tearing across the pasture when she sees me.

So that's my opinion. I've worked with plenty of abused horses to know when NOT to use physical discipline. And I've been around enough horses to scoff at the idea that it instantly creates fear of humans. Abuse creates fear, discipline creates respect.


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## Solon

MacabreMikolaj said:


> Abuse creates fear, discipline creates respect.


*Well* said!


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## Audra0729

Misfit said:


> <-- has a guilty confession to make.
> 
> Coach's jumper is thick as a brick. Like seriously, he is DUMB! He's also very rude (wants to be your best friend, i.e. rub his head on you, lean on you etc...). And very big.
> 
> On multiple occasions, I have smacked that horse as hard as I possibly can... in the head (usually when he's rubbing on me). Normally I would feel guilty about this, but his reaction was to simply stare at me, blink, and then go back to rubbing.
> 
> This taught me three things: 1. That horse is DUMB, 2. I need to start lifting weights, and 3. Hitting a horse in the face isn't necessarily scar them for life.





hahahahaha. this made me laugh so hard that my brother asked what was so funny. lol I'm just glad I haven't run into a horse like this yet... although, my 2 year old is starting to show some signs :shock:


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## Zab

sunny06 said:


> It's fine to *smack* a horse. End of discussion--but it DOES depend WHERE. On the head? Big no-no. On the shoulder,neck,chest,etc? That's fine.


I'd rather say ''when'' than ''where''.
Timing is all that matters. If you start hitting your horse on the shoulder everytime you see him for no reason and no warning, he'll get confused and avoid you.
If you hit his nose when he's biting you, in the exact same moment, he won't gwt confused or scared, he'll know he brought it onto himself.
If you hit his face two seconds after he bit you, when he has already pulled back, he might understand why, and might not. Or he'll think you're too slow and ignore you.

It's all about timing and understanding. And the horse MUST know that if he does this, he will get smacked, and then he gets smacked. Otherwise it'll just cause confusion and perhaps fear.

The biggest problems with smacking a horse is that the smack rarely tells the horse what's wrong, or lead it into the right way. If you can think of anything that makes that clearer while you're correcting the horse (_such as backing the horse if he walks too close when leading him, it's clear and gentle, while smacking him in this case will tell him to back off, but does it in a sudden and unexpected way - unless the horse already knows not to walk too close_)it will be more effective, because the horse can easier associate the wrong behaviour with the correction, and remember how to act instead. Better communication. Even if the clearer way is more severe to the horse psycologically, it is to prefer since the horse will simply understand better.

Now, in reality, we're humans. And if the horse does something, we can't always immediatly figure out how to correct the horse in the most clear way, if we do, we'll loose all the important timing. And then we can do the second best thing; smack. As long as the timing is good, the horse won't get scared, it won't get hurt, and it will probably get the message through.
Next time we should have thought things through and have different solution ready.


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## goldilockz

MacabreMikolaj said:


> Abuse creates fear, discipline creates respect.


I second that!


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## Spirithorse

The horse is DUMB? Wow. How about the horse is just so confident in himself and all around that you could whack on him all day and he wouldn't give up? That's not stupidity, that's just a very smart, confident, dominant horse. It's worth it to him to get a smack if he can still rub his head. But it's a great example of how smacking doesn't work. It's SO easy to get a horse to stop rubbing on you.


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## Misfit

Spirithorse said:


> The horse is DUMB? Wow. How about the horse is just so confident in himself and all around that you could whack on him all day and he wouldn't give up? That's not stupidity, that's just a very smart, confident, dominant horse. It's worth it to him to get a smack if he can still rub his head. But it's a great example of how smacking doesn't work. It's SO easy to get a horse to stop rubbing on you.



Well bless your heart.


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## TroubledTB

Spirithorse said:


> The horse is DUMB? Wow. How about the horse is just so confident in himself and all around that you could whack on him all day and he wouldn't give up? That's not stupidity, that's just a very smart, confident, dominant horse. It's worth it to him to get a smack if he can still rub his head. But it's a great example of how smacking doesn't work. It's SO easy to get a horse to stop rubbing on you.


So there is no such thing as dumb horses just mean people? Ok, I can live with that. "Stupid [horses] need to most attention!" -the Simpsons.


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## TroubledTB

Misfit said:


> ^U
> One point last year I got ****ed off and had the "THIS. ENDS. NOW." come to jesus meeting of the century with him. Luckily, he stood still the rest of the day.


Did you pick up "come to jesus" from me? You wouldn't be the first to like the phrase, but I just want to know so I can take credit for starting it, hehe. Maybe one day I can be like the guy on the Sarah Silverman show who started booyah! Yep, I'll be balling then, horse people will whisper around me and ask for my autograph. Oh yeah, it will be sweet! As for your Idiot Savant, keep up the mind your manners or die attitude, it's safest for everyone if your horse behaves.


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## Sunny06

Zab said:


> If you start hitting your horse on the shoulder everytime you see him for no reason and no warning, he'll get confused and avoid you.


 When did I say I hit my horse everytime I see him, hmm? You have to make examples that actually make sense..


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## Solon

TroubledTB said:


> Did you pick up "come to jesus" from me? You wouldn't be the first to like the phrase, but I just want to know so I can take credit for starting it, hehe.


That's been around for decades. My Gram used to say it when all of us were into mischief. She say, do you want a 'come to Jesus' session? So it's not new.


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## TroubledTB

thanks, I had only heard my mom and I use it, so I never knew, I just heard people pick it up from me before.


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## Zab

sunny06 said:


> When did I say I hit my horse everytime I see him, hmm? You have to make examples that actually make sense..


I didn't say you did, I used it as an example on why ''when'' is more important than ''where''.


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## Misfit

TroubledTB said:


> Did you pick up "come to jesus" from me? You wouldn't be the first to like the phrase, but I just want to know so I can take credit for starting it, hehe. Maybe one day I can be like the guy on the Sarah Silverman show who started booyah! Yep, I'll be balling then, horse people will whisper around me and ask for my autograph. Oh yeah, it will be sweet! As for your Idiot Savant, keep up the mind your manners or die attitude, it's safest for everyone if your horse behaves.


Nah, I got it from my friend's nana. 

Now, as for this horse, normally I hesitate to call horses dumb. I find 'misunderstood' can be a better word. But this horse... definitely qualifies. He tries to eat rocks, walks into walls, and generally doesn't have the elevator going to the top floor. 

That being said, his ground manners HAVE gotten a lot better. He's a very slow to mature wb, but he may eventually become a solid citizen.


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## darkwillow

Equus_girl said:


> You really can't hurt a horse if you smack it on its shoulder, chest, rump, ect. A horse will kick or bite another horse a lot harder than you could ever slap it.


I don't believe in smacking a horse. Ever. Full stop. People try to justify hitting their horse by saying that horses do much worse to each other in the paddock. We can't possibly hurt them more.

The problem with this is that WE are not HORSES. Horses are prey animals. We, like it or not, are viewed by horses as predators. When we hit them, we are reinforcing their view that we are predators and they have a reason to fear us.

When I first got my horse, Isabelle, she had a biting problem. She would turn around and bite whoever was trying to saddle her. Once she bit me and, before I even had a chance to react, she backed away. She was actually waiting for me to hit her. I didn't, but I used natural horsemanship to show her that it wasn't okay. Now she never bites.

What I find funny is when people discuss natural horsemanship and hitting the horse in the same breath. Natural Horsemanship is a 'teaching philosophy that rejects force as a training tool'.

Hope I made my point. Sorry for the rant. Hope I didn't offend anyone too much..:shock:


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## Beloved Killer

If you smack a horse, it's not because you're aggressive or what not. Of course, you never want to be absolutely smashing your horse for no reason.


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## Gillian

Most horses get over the "seeing us as a predator" thing VERY early on. And most well cared for horses see us as a member of the herd instead. I will not hesitate to smack a horse who is disrespecting me or my space. I work at a stable and if you do not assert yourself as a leader to these horses they will walk all over you. And not because they're badly trained, or mean horses, but because if you're not the leader than they are, and leaders in a horse's word call the shots and use FORCE to get their point across. I would never hit a horse without just cause. If they kick at me I'll kick them right back. If they bite me they'll get a good smack on the neck. It's communicating to them in a language that they understand. Now, not all misbehavior requires a physical reaction. For example, Zeus likes to paw when he's bored. Do I hit him? No. I simply raise my voice enough so that he knows to quit it. And he does. I never need to use more force than a sharp tone. And with most horses, this seems to be the case. Now, every so often you'll encounter a horse on one of the extreme ends. I've know horses who would never ever need to be hit to get a point across, just using your voice went far enough. And I've known horses where your voice did absolutely nothing. The other side to all this is knowing when hitting is appropriate. If your horse is scared or confused, this would not be the time to hit him. If a horse is confused a gentle nudge does the trick, for spooking I like to get the horse working and getting it's mind back onto me and off of the scary object, but downright snottyness or disrespect is the only time that it becomes physical.

Saying that no situation, ever, calls for a horse to get a good smack is just completely ridiculous.


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## Brumby

There is alread a good dicussion on this here. http://www.horseforum.com/natural-horsemanship/why-force-31027/


Here is my reply to the question though.


Just hitting a horse because you are irritated can very easly ruin them. To use natural horsemanship you have to communicate to the horse like another horse would. Horses will kick or bite if another comes to close, or something. Clinton anderson (not my favorite but I know his style) uses a lot hard tapping with his stick to teach a horse to yeild. I think that sometimes it is nessesary, to stand there and let a horse do something potentialy harmful to you will ruin the horse and possible hurt you, and no matter how well bred a horse you have you are more important that the horse. So if you have to, do it, but do it in the right way.


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## Gillian

^ Oh, whoops didn't see that one. I agree with you though and you put it much better than I did.
I'm not so good at explaining my thoughts.
XD


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## lovemyponies

TroubledTB said:


> Did you pick up "*come to jesus*" from me? You wouldn't be the first to like the phrase, but I just want to know so I can take credit for starting it, hehe. Maybe one day I can be like the guy on the Sarah Silverman show who started booyah! Yep, I'll be balling then, horse people will whisper around me and ask for my autograph. Oh yeah, it will be sweet! As for your Idiot Savant, keep up the mind your manners or die attitude, it's safest for everyone if your horse behaves.


Oh my "come to Jesus" has been around for as long as I can possibly remember. I really don't know where it started though, does anyone? LOL

All I can say is there is a time and place to smack a horse. Some may never need it some may need it more than once. I don't know of any horses ruined by it. Yes there are better approaches but sometimes its necessary.


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## Misfit

Brumby said:


> There is alread a good dicussion on this here. http://www.horseforum.com/natural-horsemanship/why-force-31027/


Actually, this thread was around first. :wink:


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## Sunny06

Hmm..What if your horse REALLY wanted to bite you, eh? She's not going to listen to that NH junk. There is no such thing as 'Natural' horsemanship. Sorry, but true. It's basically reg. Horsemanship with a cool name.
She's going to do what is REALLY natural and bite you. That is, if she REALLY wanted to. Extreme irritation, aggresion [sp?], etc.
You wouldn't stand a chance against a 1,000 pound animal who IS GOING to bite you no matter what. A smack will keep them at bay maybe a good 95% of the time. Smacking is correction, not abuse. It's a 1,000 pound animal with skin for leather--it dosen't hurt them as much as it hurts us. Mostly it's just the sound or sudden movement that makes them intimidated..The "horse is a prey animal, people aren't" theory really makes no sense whatsoever. Sorry, but it really just does not come into play. Horses are by nature, 'punishers'. They believe in kicking, biting, punishing, etc. We aren't going to eat them, and by now after you've known your horse for a while, they know that.

Of course there's always the ONE. *rolls eyes*

--A smack is not going to hurt them--
But of course that is all _my_ opinion.

Glad NH works for you though.


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## Brumby

Misfit said:


> Actually, this thread was around first. :wink:


 
oh, lol. I should have checked, my bad.


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## Spirithorse

Well, my warmblood DID want to bite me, especially in a stall. He would charge the door, ears flat back, teeth bared, sometimes he would strike.....and I never, ever laid a hand on him. I just used that "NH junk" and now he never thinks to bite me and he is a teddy bear in a stall now



sunny06 said:


> Hmm..What if your horse REALLY wanted to bite you, eh? She's not going to listen to that NH junk. There is no such thing as 'Natural' horsemanship. Sorry, but true. It's basically reg. Horsemanship with a cool name.
> She's going to do what is REALLY natural and bite you. That is, if she REALLY wanted to. Extreme irritation, aggresion [sp?], etc.
> You wouldn't stand a chance against a 1,000 pound animal who IS GOING to bite you no matter what. A smack will keep them at bay maybe a good 95% of the time. Smacking is correction, not abuse. It's a 1,000 pound animal with skin for leather--it dosen't hurt them as much as it hurts us. Mostly it's just the sound or sudden movement that makes them intimidated..The "horse is a prey animal, people aren't" theory really makes no sense whatsoever. Sorry, but it really just does not come into play. Horses are by nature, 'punishers'. They believe in kicking, biting, punishing, etc. We aren't going to eat them, and by now after you've known your horse for a while, they know that.
> 
> Of course there's always the ONE. *rolls eyes*
> 
> --A smack is not going to hurt them--
> But of course that is all _my_ opinion.
> 
> Glad NH works for you though.


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## Sunny06

^^ I probably shouldn't have used the word 'junk'. It's basically just 'better' horsemanship--rather than 'natural'. People hear the word natural and get all excited but it's really just good horsemanship.


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## Zab

> It's a 1,000 pound animal with skin for leather--it dosen't hurt them as much as it hurts us. Mostly it's just the sound or sudden movement that makes them intimidated..The "horse is a prey animal, people aren't" theory really makes no sense whatsoever.


The least sensetive part on a horses skin is still 7 times more sensetive than your fingertip. Think of that the next time you claim the horse to be unsensetive because it's big. And human skin can be made into leather as well, they did that in nazi germany, y'know...
But I agree with the other part, people that claims that horses can't differ a human from a lion are severely underestimating their intelligense. Yes, they know that we are predators and eat meat, and they also knows that we're not going to eat them even if we smack them.
A smack with timing won't hurt the horse, but if there is a better way (=any way that actually tells the horse what we want rather than that they annoyed us somehow) it should be used.


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## RidingBareback

Whenever my horses are trying to take advantage of me, I say "Bad" sternly. If they don't respond I smack them: on the lower neck, side, or rump. They almost always obey. Smacking is just like cropping: no different. The only un-forgivable way to smack a horse is on it's face or without warning, or if the horse is scared. 

A loss of temper is different. I have seen people loose their tempers with horses: kicking, yelling, spurring, hitting horses in the face, etc. Losing your temper makes your signals confusing to the horse, and can be scary to the horse.

Slapping your horse to regain control and respect is fine-- completely.


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## My Beau

Ok... I'm going to join in waaaay late. 

But, IMHO, natural horsemanship IS plain old horsemanship with fancy name. It appeals to the people who just go out and buy a horse one day because they have the land, but they know nothing about horses... they think that it can fix/train ANY horse _perfectly_. 

And the NH "trainers" realized that if the products say 'natural horsemanship', or something to the effect, people will fork out big bucks to own it... you know, because it will help them teach their horse better.


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## My Beau

(sorry my computer had a spazz attack and had to restart a few times...)

To keep going with my post...

When my horses misbehave, they get a "no", "knock it off", a sharp "aht" (that's a hard sound to spell). If they keep going, they get a poke, or a very soft slap with the back of my hand... just something to get their attention. After that they get a smack. 

How hard I smack them depends on what they did, if it's nothing serious, just a bad habit I don't want them picking up, they probably barely feel it. If it's something major, bet your bottom dollar they'll feel it. I don't hit hard, but I get the point across. Compared to another horse's bite or kick, they are getting off lucky with me.

I don't hit noses. But if the horse is being lippy/mouthy, I'll put my hand in a fist and when they swing around to take a bite, they hit their nose. But it's only hard enough as they are moving... after all that's how hard they would've made contact with me if they succeeded.


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## Hoofprints in the Sand

Personally, I will smack my horse (I won't smack her on the face, but that's just my own personal preference) on the neck, or the rump, if she gets out of line in a dangerous way and doesn't listen to a stern "STOP!" from me first. I warn her with STOP and then, it's her own fault for not listening. I do have an exception to that rule...if she tries to kick or bite, she gets smacked RIGHT AWAY...she has only bit me 1 time ever, and she got smacked on the neck and never did it again. I've heard people say to "bite them back" and I think it's absolutely hilarious and also very effective too! ;-) I've never done it, but I've heard it works wonders for some!

As far as kicking, she tried once to kick when I lifted her back leg one day, and she got smacked on the rump...she stopped it right then and hasn't done it since.

I don't agree with smacking your horse for every little thing they do wrong, but if it's as serious as biting or kicking, I absolutely think it's an appropriate and effective way of disclipline that the horse understands. (given they were not abused previously and you're not punishing them for getting spooked or anything like that)

My mare is the alpha of the pasture, and she used to try to kick/bite other horses in the arena when they trotted past us. She would pin her ears back and strike out at them, which was dangerous and unacceptable behavior. So I started saying NO and smacking her neck when she would do it. A few smacks on her neck and she cut it out and doesn't even think about doing it anymore. I don't wail on her or anything, just a stern smack (like spanking a child!) to let her know I don't approve of what she's doing, and it gets the point across. Now she is a very well behaved, well adjusted alpha mare


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad

I won't hesitate to smack a horse. If it reaches out to bit me I will hit it hard with anything I have in my hand. I once had a horse snake it's head out to grab my arm while walking past with a steel gallon measure in my hand and as the horse grabbed my shirt the metal container connected with his head. Funny but he never bit again and he was not head shy.
A new stallion I just bought cow kicked me on the hib. Just as quickly my knee came up and connected with his rib cage. Again funny be he never kicked at me again.
While grooming if the horse tries chewing on the hitching rail I will slap him with the brush. That doesn't create shy horses, nervous horses, just well behaved animals.
Pawing, figiting in cross ties gets a smack with a brush too. .
Again it creates good horses.


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## aruraeclipse

goldilockz said:


> A smack here and there is about as "natural" as you can get when it comes to horses. If you want to go full natural horsemanship, start biting.


 hehehehe, that was great!


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## DixiesPaintedNova

The way i look at it is I am a 4'11" 115 pound girl and if my 1200 pound gelding didnt have any manners then he could easily hurt me or anyone else around him. I also look at it like im treating him like he is a member of MY herd not his and Lordy help him if he's gonna disrespect the leader.:lol: I cannot do as much damage to him as he could do to me, or as another horse could do to him. 

After he got into the mindset that he was not the herd leader and i was...body language goes a looooong way. I only smack when he doesnt heed my warnings.


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## Marecare

Boy,
All I have to say is that there is a lot of smacking going on for the "Natural Horsemanship" section of the forum.

Maybe the OP should have asked "How Natural are you"?

I would ask what YOU think the basic core values of "Natural Horsemanship"
are?

The OP asked if there is a better way to handle it.

I say yes there is,but it take more work sometimes.

Hitting is what people do when they run out of other ideas!
We hit out of fear or retaliation or anger or maybe we are just lazy about fixing the real problem.


We hit because we got boxed in or trapped or we let our guard down.
We hit because we did not think ahead and consider all the risk we were taking.
After we hit we look for reasons that we did and why we should.

Maybe there is a bit of guilt and we think (Like the OP)


Maybe there is a better way.


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## Spirithorse

Excellent post Marecare!! I wholeheartedly agree!


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad

Marecare said:


> Hitting is what people do when they run out of other ideas!
> We hit out of fear or retaliation or anger or maybe we are just lazy about fixing the real problem.
> 
> 
> We hit because we got boxed in or trapped or we let our guard down.
> We hit because we did not think ahead and consider all the risk we were taking.
> After we hit we look for reasons that we did and why we should.
> 
> .


NO. I certainly have no fear whatever. I certainly don't HIT because I didn't think ahead. It is a trained method to deal quickly and efficiently with a problem. Nip it in the bud so to speak.
I can tell you years in advance what I will do if a horse reacts a certain way. That is not fear, that is not thinking ahead. 
To many people have average horses because they do not have the knowhow or temperment to make an exceptional animal.

Average is not good. I will not warn a horse, he gets no second chance. Misbehavement is delt with swiftly and without warning and contravery to what some of you think it doesn't make head shy fightened horses.
If anthing it draws them to you.
It would be fun to be able to walk out in the field and collect my horse instead of having him come to the fence/gate calling the minute it hears my car pulling in the driveway.
I could get to practice my whistle and getting him to come on command.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad

I had the great pleasure of competing against a super horse trainer. He got a 6 year old family pet to break at a cost of $1000 per month while I took a 5 year old totally unbroken puke. One that 2 trainers had given up on. The barn took sides and most thought the Horse whisper at $3000 for 3 months would turn out a better horse.
Mine all could see was a natural born bucker and all around bad and I didn't have a chance.
3 months came quickly and then the comparison began.
My guy won hands down, Where the horse the horse whisper broke at a cost of $3000 knew almost nothing mine had run about 500 miles of road work, knew backing, leads, sidepassing, hobbling and impecable?? ground manners.. Forgot trailering was also thrown in there.
Yes I will strick out in a perdetermined way, without warning if the horse crosses one of my boundries.


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## Marecare

RiosDad said:


> I had the great pleasure of competing against a super horse trainer. He got a 6 year old family pet to break at a cost of $1000 per month while I took a 5 year old totally unbroken puke. One that 2 trainers had given up on. The barn took sides and most thought the Horse whisper at $3000 for 3 months would turn out a better horse.
> Mine all could see was a natural born bucker and all around bad and I didn't have a chance.
> 3 months came quickly and then the comparison began.
> My guy won hands down, Where the horse the horse whisper broke at a cost of $3000 knew almost nothing mine had run about 500 miles of road work, knew backing, leads, sidepassing, hobbling and impecable?? ground manners.. Forgot trailering was also thrown in there.
> Yes I will strick out in a perdetermined way, without warning if the horse crosses one of my boundries.



Your way works for you...good!


Your concept of average is yours,not mine.

We as humans put our ideas on to our horses,just as we put saddles on.


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## luvs2ride1979

DixiesPaintedNova said:


> The way i look at it is I am a 4'11" 115 pound girl and if my 1200 pound gelding didnt have any manners then he could easily hurt me or anyone else around him. I also look at it like im treating him like he is a member of MY herd not his and Lordy help him if he's gonna disrespect the leader.:lol: I cannot do as much damage to him as he could do to me, or as another horse could do to him.
> 
> After he got into the mindset that he was not the herd leader and i was...body language goes a looooong way. I only smack when he doesnt heed my warnings.


Exactly :wink:.

You cannot round pen every horse into respecting you... And not everyone has access to a round pen. A quick smack, kick, bit, tap with the whip, etc. is an effective way to show a horse YOU are the boss, without having to get into a lengthy "training session". 

Reprimands for unwanted behavior are dolled out by horses in a heard environment from the time a foal is born. Sure, you should start with a non-physical reprimand, just as horses do (ears back, teeth barred, running the offending horse off), but if that doesn't work, you should escalate to the next level, just as a horse would.


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## Marecare

luvs2ride1979 said:


> Exactly :wink:.
> 
> You cannot round pen every horse into respecting you... And not everyone has access to a round pen. A quick smack, kick, bit, tap with the whip, etc. is an effective way to show a horse YOU are the boss, without having to get into a lengthy "training session".
> 
> Reprimands for unwanted behavior are dolled out by horses in a heard environment from the time a foal is born. Sure, you should start with a non-physical reprimand, just as horses do (ears back, teeth barred, running the offending horse off), but if that doesn't work, you should escalate to the next level, just as a horse would.



So to follow this line of thought,any time a large weight difference is involved then smacking is a good concept.

How about elephants or bulls or old brothers?


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## goldilockz

I think I'm quite "natural" when it comes to what I have learned and still learn regarding horsemanship. It just may not match the definition that the Natural Horsemanship *brand *dictates


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## Sunny06

^^ So you think horseback riding is _natural_?


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## luvs2ride1979

Horses work best when they no what is correct and what is not correct. No, you should not punish horse for just "not getting it" when training him/her. You need to keep working, trying different ways of showing the horse what you want, then praising the horse for the correct behavior and building on that.

However, there is a time and place for punishment. The key to punishing a horse is to be super consistent as to your boundaries and expectations, and the punishment should be quick and delivered appropriately. The key is TIMING. If you find yourself "punishing" the horse for the same behavior, then either your timing is not right, there is a hole in the horse's training, or there is a physical issue causing the behavior (fear, pain, hormonal imbalance, wrong feed, etc.). 

The only times I will "punish" a horse is for aggressive behavior or for an inappropriate response (ie. bucking, rearing, or kicking). I do not allow my horses to react that way, no matter the reason for it. I will do my best to figure out WHY the horse is reacting that way and "fix" it, but I will still let the horse know that those kind of behaviors are "unwanted". I have found that most horses will quickly find another way to express themselves, which I will allow until the issue has been addressed completely.

I believe that the reason many NH trainers condem punishment is because that do not know how to convey the proper use of it. There is nothing more natural than a physical reprimand, just what your herd! There is a time and place for punishment. It's up to the owner/rider/handler to figure out how and when to use it.


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## luvs2ride1979

Marecare said:


> So to follow this line of thought,any time a large weight difference is involved then smacking is a good concept.
> 
> How about elephants or bulls or old brothers?


No, you're not following my line of though at all. The weight difference isn't the issue. The point is about natural horse behavior. Kicking and biting are natural horse behaviors. If you're trying to use "horse-speak" to train your horse, and be "natural", then a physical reprimand is most definitely in your training arsenal. It's up to you to use it appropriately.


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## luvs2ride1979

sunny06 said:


> ^^ So you think horseback riding is _natural_?



Haha! Touche! lol

Yup, very good point. There's nothing "natural" about humans (a predator) working with and riding a horse (prey). We are NOT a real part of their herd.


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## Marecare

I suggest more study,watching herds and time will help your outlook.


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## goldilockz

sunny06 said:


> ^^ So you think horseback riding is _natural_?


:lol: As natural as can be while taming an animal to ride.


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## Sunny06

^^ Horseback riding is _not_ natural,* period*. No matter WHAT you do, there is absolutely no way it can be even relatively natural. Zero. Zip. Not possible. It's called just plain good ol' Good Horsemanship.


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## goldilockz

sunny06 said:


> ^^ Horseback riding is _not_ natural,* period*. No matter WHAT you do, there is absolutely no way it can be even relatively natural. Zero. Zip. Not possible. It's called just plain good ol' Good Horsemanship.


I agree with that. I think that's why I tend to disagree with the Natural Horsemanship *brand* when really it should just be called common sense.


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## Spirithorse

Riding a horse isn't natural. However, the WAY you ride and the attitude you have while riding is what makes things as close to natural as possible.....it's the way you communicate with the horse, the way you teach him, your thought process......that's the point.


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## Sunny06

goldilockz said:


> I agree with that. I think that's why I tend to disagree with the Natural Horsemanship *brand* when really it should just be called common sense.


Yeah I agree. That's not what it sounded like the first time when you said it..To me, at least. I see what you mean now


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## lovemyponies

seems to me we are at a point to agree to disagree  I can't say I won't ever smack a horse. sometimes it makes sense to me, perhaps Ineed to study it more but I have only so many hours in the day and I have handled, owned, trained, ridden many many horses in my life and usually a stern firm voice can solve the problem, sometimes a quick smack is needed. Usually that is the end of it. 

But if many of you other posters prefer to approach it w/o any smack, that is a good thing too. I don't think any of us on here are for hurting horses or abusing them.


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## Spirithorse

Yes, no one is claiming anyone is abusing their horses. I find it silly when people acuse NH people of saying that all non-NHers abuse their horses......it's just not ture. Sure, there are some crazy flakes out there who will say that, but they are the MINORITY. The majority of NHers, at least the good ones IMO, don't preach things, they give advise if asked, and they let their relationship with their horse speak for itself. I know I personally don't care what others think of me or the training program I follow, I care about what my horse thinks of me.


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## lovemyponies

great point Spirithorse


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## wild_spot

I really agree with luvs2rides posts.


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## luvs2ride1979

wild_spot said:


> I really agree with luvs2rides posts.


Why thank you :wink:.


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## wild_spot

No probs :]


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## Spirithorse

lovemyponies said:


> great point Spirithorse


Thank you


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## Audra0729

Spirithorse said:


> Yes, no one is claiming anyone is abusing their horses. I find it silly when people acuse NH people of saying that all non-NHers abuse their horses......it's just not ture. Sure, there are some crazy flakes out there who will say that, but they are the MINORITY. The majority of NHers, at least the good ones IMO, don't preach things, they give advise if asked, and they let their relationship with their horse speak for itself. I know I personally don't care what others think of me or the training program I follow, I care about what my horse thinks of me.



I do believe this post is a great one to end the thread on. it's 100% true, not worth fighting over and trying to prove points, I've watched this thread for a long time and have pretty much given up on it because its the same over and over.

As long as you or someone else aren't harming the horse one way or another whats "wrong" with other methods? Nothing. If it works for you, GREAT! It may not work for someone else tho, keep your mind open to new things.

had to throw my 2 cents in here ;-)


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## Misfit

Marecare said:


> I suggest more study,watching herds and time will help your outlook.


Please don't preach and talk down to us. I suggest at least PRETENDING to respect our point of view, and stop being condescending.

That being said, I get the 'hitting a horse isn't a bit deal' FROM watching horses and study. 

Training horses is a bit like parenting. There isn't *one* perfect way.


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## goldilockz

Misfit said:


> Training horses is a bit like parenting. There isn't *one* perfect way.


I agree 100%


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## Sunny06

^^ EXACTLY.
And we aren't saying NH is abuse. I have NO clue where you got that.


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## Shalani

I think smacking is ok BUT It needs to be reasonable and proportional to the threat the horse has given you.


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## Marecare

Misfit said:


> Please don't preach and talk down to us. I suggest at least PRETENDING to respect our point of view, and stop being condescending.
> 
> That being said, I get the 'hitting a horse isn't a bit deal' FROM watching horses and study.
> 
> Training horses is a bit like parenting. There isn't *one* perfect way.



Some people overreact to people also.


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## goldilockz

Marecare said:


> Some people overreact to people also.


I'm not understanding what you mean by this?


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## luvs2ride1979

Misfit said:


> I get the 'hitting a horse isn't a big deal' FROM watching horses and study.
> 
> Training horses is a bit like parenting. There isn't *one* perfect way.


Both very good points. My DH always likes to say, "it take's a village" when referring to horse training, lol. He means that it takes a lot of knowledge of many types/methods of training, as the same method may not work on the same horse the next day, lol. It also depends on who it's coming from.

Example: My DH's horse is an Anglo Arabian, either untrained or poorly trained before we got him at 5 yrs old. We started him like he was a baby, starting with just basic leading and ground manners. We used a trainer for some help, but did most of the work ourselves. I have worked with and studied many types of trainers. My DH is more of a "learn from the horse" kind of guy, but he does watch/study others (amateurs and professionals) to see what to do and not to do.

My DH is a BIG and LOUD guy, he just can't help it, lol. He's very compassionate to animals, but he doesn't have a "medium" volume, he's either quiet or LOUD, calm or ANGRY. So, doling out punishment is not something he likes to do, or is comfortable with. If he tried to "punish" his horse Mark, Mark would get very scared and then ****ed and try to challenge him. So, my DH had to take the "chess game" approach with him and wear him down, much like an NH method, but he had to do it mentally rather than physically. Mark (the horse) has INCREDIBLE endurance and will NOT be worn down. We tied once; it took 3 hours of round pen work (we took turns) and then after a 5 minute rest, he was back and redy to go again, lol. 

Mark also does not respond well to being "run off" or "backed up" out of your space. He sees that as "punishment" by Raymond, so again, he had to find an alternative method.

I, however, can work with Mark more "traditionally." I just don't have the patience for the mental chess game... :wink: Mark responds well when I scold him, either punishing him for a very bad behavior, or just a mild-moderate scolding for a "wrong reaction." I think becase I'm a "female", he feels less threatended or challended by my authority. He was still a "tough nut to crack" though, responding to a lot of my negative feedback with an almost incredulous air, lol.

Mark is now a very well behaved, relatively submissive horse. He is half Arabian, so he will never be "completely" submissive to humans, lol. He knows his place though and has accepted it, however begrudgingly... :wink:

I had a friend of mine out to visit once (early in Mark's training) who was a BIG NH follower/trainer, up to Parelli level 3 I believe. She couldn't believe that Mark wouldn't respond to NH type training. I told her to "have at it" and see what she could do. She ended up leaving after 3 or 4 hours, calling Mark every bad name under the sun. It took her a while to talk to me again... lol She ended up getting a couple of other Arabian clients and finally called me a few months later. She said she had a similar experience with one of those horses, and the two others finally worked out, but it took a lot longer than her normal stock-horse clients. (_I'm not saying that all Arabians won't respond to NH, just giving my experience and what she told me._) So, my gelding Mark wasn't as much the "freak" as she thought, lol.

So, my conclusion, learn EVERYTHING! and use whatever WORKS for YOU *and* your horse!


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## Sunny06

goldilockz said:


> I'm not understanding what you mean by this?


^^ She (MareCare) is trying to prove something that she shouldn't have her nose in. Misfit is right, so just go with it and try to be agreeable, please.


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## Hoofprints in the Sand

Very well said luvs2ride!  It's all about what works with you and your horse, and much like training ourselves to ride, the same thing won't work in every situation and with every horse/person. 

There's no "right" or "wrong" (well, as long as no one is getting hurt or abused that is! But when people refer to "smacking" for bad behavior I assume they are not abusing, that's an extreme).


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad

sunny06 said:


> ^^ She (MareCare) is trying to prove something that she shouldn't have her nose in. Misfit is right, so just go with it and try to be agreeable, please.


Did MareCare have a sex change?? The last time I looked it was a HE


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## Misfit

Marecare said:


> Some people overreact to people also.


Well bless your heart.


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## Marecare

RiosDad said:


> Did MareCare have a sex change?? The last time I looked it was a HE


 I have been thinking about it,but don't think I could handle the stress of the hair salon.


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## Sunny06

By the time I realized 'she' was a 'he' it was to late to change it.


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