# What is the TAP method



## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

I just saw this youtube video and I was wondering if anybody had looked into it. The video is kind of vague.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

I'm also curious what others have to say. What I understood from the video is that they cut off the horse's oxygen and blood supply to get this result - am I correct? 
When he is working with older horses, he seems to grab hold of a certain area on the horse's withers, I'm assuming from other responses I've seen on the subject that it does the same thing; cutting off blood supply (therefore affecting the nerves) to make them weak in the front. 
Of course, these are all guesses from what I've seen and read.
Without knowing the whole truth, my first reaction to this video is "why?"
The person in this video used to post about racehorses with various problems - the TAP seemed to help "cure" them (if you will) and the horse was able to continue racing rather than being sent to the meatworks. I don't understand the need to use this on willing or young (yearling) horses. Of course I could have this all wrong.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

I've heard people around talking about it and tried to read, but I never got the point frankly (i've never seen anyone using it "alive"). This video does look sick to me though. Don't think something I wanna try... :?


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

I think in the video it said TAP does not cut off the blood or oxygen supply to the horse. Of course if any man can cut off a horses blood supply with one hand I will call him sir and walk softly around him!


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## jimmy (Aug 26, 2009)

well i watched it not my thing and only guessing but tap is probably short for training something or other i,ve got it[throttling a pony]


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## sillybunny11486 (Oct 2, 2009)

These people look like idiots to me. I dont want a horse falling down like that anywere near were I am standing. These people are most likely pinching a nerve


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

I did run into this a few times saddling new guys for the first time. As I drew up the girth in steps they would start to go down. I had to move the horse to keep them on their feet. I think he is referring to girthing for the first time cuts off the oxygen and causes the horse to feel weak in the front end.
the last 2 horses I did had this problem at the first saddling and for a few times after that.
I had one go right down years ago but never assosiated it with oxygen being cut off.
A good video and I feel the guy didn't harm the horses in any way.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

sillybunny11486 said:


> These people look like idiots to me. I dont want a horse falling down like that anywere near were I am standing. These people are most likely pinching a nerve


If you have broken young colts, the first few times you might experience this same thing. He is not trying to make the horse go down. It is a reaction to tightening the girth. 
In cross ties I moved the horses sideways. I just didn't know what it was but now I do.
The guy was very gentle, safe and I feel he is explaining a phenomina????


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Rio, he IS trying to make the horse go down. That's what the idiotic 'TAP Method' is all about.

Kevin, if you want to know how to learn to make a horse behave forever and ever with just one time using TAP, you'll of course have to BUY Endo's 'method'.

The video is vague on purpose. 

I happen to think Endo's a moron.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

kevinshorses said:


> Of course if any man can cut off a horses blood supply with one hand I will call him sir and walk softly around him!


You can throat twitch a horse to the point you can drop it.

Same thing as strangling it.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

He is definately making them go down. I just couldn't see how he was doing it and I was wondering if anyone had seen him live or bought his download. I am as skeptical as anyone about this and untill I hear a lot more about it I won't be sending him any money.


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## G and K's Mom (Jan 11, 2008)

kevinshorses said:


> . Of course if any man can cut off a horses blood supply with one hand I will call him sir and walk softly around him!


:lol:

I read somewhere the idea was to affect a nerve in the neck which was suppose to relax the horse. ???


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Essentially, it's all just about laying them down - which we've all known can be a beautiful training method, but yet again, we have some nicompoop numbnut trying to feed off people's insecurities by making it sound like his own personal secret and making you pay ridiculous sums of money for him to basically tell how how to crank a horses head around and pull him off his feet when he's weak.

If you look up different TAP vids on YouTube, it's absolutely no different then any other of numerous methods of laying a horse down. However, I find it ironic that in 90% of the vids I've seen the horses go down tense and flailing and immediately trying to get back up - something you don't see when an old cowboy properly lays down a horse.

Just a bunch of marketed hogwash anyone could learn if they hung around an old trainer for awhile!


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## Lobelia Overhill (Nov 3, 2009)

Endo has quite a few videos on You Tube and from what I've seen he's not doing 'anything' to the horses at all - there's one where he gets on a horse that keeps rearing all the time and he sorts that out without resorting to anything other than letting him rear, then making him stand still before letting him walk on. He seems to use a similar "don't let them get away with it, and do what they want" technique on horses - without using any signs of force or 'funny business'.

just my 2c...


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## Sonnyx12 (Oct 26, 2009)

i haven't seen it before, and i am a little confused. so this is his training method? so like if you take a horse somewhere new and he starts to freak out, you make him "lie down"? And that will calm him down? Im so confused lol


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## sillybunny11486 (Oct 2, 2009)

dont you guys see him pushing fingers into the front of the shoulder? There is most likely a nerve there and under the leg near the girth area. I rub behind my horses ears to get them to relax. I do it when the chiropractor is out. It releases endorphines which bring a horses head down, but Ive never seen a horse go down at all or react that fast from it. So I am thinking it is causing either numbness or pain.


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## HalfPass (Jun 12, 2009)

I have never seen this method of training. I have to say I am with JDI on this.
I suppose I would have to investigate more. 
The biggest questions I think I have are 
1.) what is the purpose (what is this method to accomplish)
2.) Why this way 
Interestingly I have seen horses that are "girthy" do this on there own when a girth is tightened. Not just young inexperienced horses but some of various ages.
Just is a bit funky to me.
HP


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

HalfPass said:


> Interestingly I have seen horses that are "girthy" do this on there own when a girth is tightened. Not just young inexperienced horses but some of various ages.
> Just is a bit funky to me.
> HP


I have seen it numerous times. The last 2 I started got really weak in the front end and attempted to go down. Since they were in cross ties_ I pushed them side to side to get them to take the weight._
_He was showing that moving the horse forward when it was attempting to go down produced a horse that lunged forward and upward while turning their head to the side produced a horse that was going down but straight. Also backing them up produced the same thing. Anything is better then moving forward._
_Personally it answer a question that I have wondered about in the past._
_I think the guy was very good._


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## AQHA13 (Apr 19, 2017)

Q: Does performing the TAP cut off oxygen supply to the brain? A: Certainly not, medical tests performed by top notch vets show the TAP has nothing to do with oxygen deprivation, nor has it ever been implied that the TAP works this way. It's a rumour with no truth whatsoever to it. 
Q: Does performing the TAP pinch the nerves? A: No, the TAP has nothing to do with the skeletal make up of the horse. 
I do not know much about how the TAP works, however I have watched most of his youtube videos and learned that he trains thoroughbred racehorses. These horses are started young and their training is done quickly. In order to help the horse be more compliant with the training, he performs the tap(laying the horse down where it feels most vulnerable so that when it gets back up it will be more submissive and relaxed) He uses this method because it is quick and it works! Obviously he doesn't have weeks to work with these horses. In a couple of videos he even says that it should NEVER take the place of 'actual' training. It should never take the place of consistent work but in his situation if he wants to complete his job quickly and with the least stress possible to the horse, this is how he does it. 

Hope I helped! 

Here is his website: http://www.hybrid-horseman.com/index.html


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

Kevinshorses - it's supposed to be "vague" he (Paul Williamson) wants you to buy the method. It's the same as laying a horse down. Here's a video of someone who had problems with it and you'll see what I mean.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

No wonder he suggests wearing a protective vest and helmet!!


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## Brighteyes (Mar 8, 2009)

So... It's basically just like the old method of lying down horses (when they try up one foot to the saddle and force the horse down), only done differently? I've seen that the old method does work, but does this one supposedly have the same effect?


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

I must be really missing something here but the 2 video's are nothing alike. I wouldn't let that girl in the second video touch my horse and she was trying to lay the horse down. I didn't see that in the first video and the guy had more class. If he wanted to lay the horse down in the first video why didn't he?? He had the know how.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

AQHA13 said:


> Q: Does performing the TAP cut off oxygen supply to the brain? A: Certainly not, medical tests performed by top notch vets show the TAP has nothing to do with oxygen deprivation, nor has it ever been implied that the TAP works this way. It's a rumour with no truth whatsoever to it.
> Q: Does performing the TAP pinch the nerves? A: No, the TAP has nothing to do with the skeletal make up of the horse.
> I do not know much about how the TAP works, however I have watched most of his youtube videos and learned that he trains thoroughbred racehorses. These horses are started young and their training is done quickly. In order to help the horse be more compliant with the training, he performs the tap(laying the horse down where it feels most vulnerable so that when it gets back up it will be more submissive and relaxed) He uses this method because it is quick and it works! Obviously he doesn't have weeks to work with these horses. In a couple of videos he even says that it should NEVER take the place of 'actual' training. It should never take the place of consistent work but in his situation if he wants to complete his job quickly and with the least stress possible to the horse, this is how he does it.
> 
> ...


You and Riosdad have it right.

Most people that don't want to, or are unable to understand the circumstances involved usually right him off however I know Paul pretty well from a bit ago and there are extensive threads on COTH and elsewhere where it is explained. 

People that judge (and wrongly) need to do some proper reasearch.


Contrary to what has been said here he does NOT think it is for every horse nor is he pushing his method (unlike Parelli). It works for him under the circumstances he is living with and yes some of the horses he has worked with would have been meat if it hadn't. Japan does NOT accept anything (horses in particular) that are not winners...immediately. 

BTW This method was practiced by a trainer here in the USA and all Paul did was refine what he learned.


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## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

I don't think he wanted them to lie down he just didn't want them to practice flight. He wanted the horse to lower itself because (supposedly) it has a better impact than the horse taking off and rearing or bucking. 

Well that is what I got....


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

RiosDad said:


> I must be really missing something here but the 2 video's are nothing alike. I wouldn't let that girl in the second video touch my horse and she was trying to lay the horse down. I didn't see that in the first video and the guy had more class. If he wanted to lay the horse down in the first video why didn't he?? He had the know how.


If you go to youtube and type in "First attempt + tap" in the search box you'll see the video I posted…if you click on it and read the comments below it you'll see that what she is doing is attempting to "tap" the horse. In the comments, "endospink" is Paul. The comments go through what went wrong and how to correct it. The first video posted is just a teaser as he says in that video that the tap is a number of factors, of which he is selectively showing parts of in that video. Even so, in a nutshell, it is laying a horse down.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Horse Poor said:


> If you go to youtube and type in "First attempt + tap" in the search box you'll see the video I posted…if you click on it and read the comments below it you'll see that what she is doing is attempting to "tap" the horse. In the comments, "endospink" is Paul. The comments go through what went wrong and how to correct it. The first video posted is just a teaser as he says in that video that the tap is a number of factors, of which he is selectively showing parts of in that video. Even so, in a nutshell, it is laying a horse down.


 
I will do that. Thank you.
What is confusing me? Does he want the horse to go down or is it a reaction to tightening the girth??
My present horse at the start would go down as I drew up the girth. It took about 2 weeks before I could tighten the girth without him sinking.
The horse before this one was the same. His front end got weak as the girth was drawn up.
I did have another persons horse drop in cross ties as I drew the girth up. this one went right down and we couldn't make him stay up and once down he wouldn't get up.
This is why I am confused.


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## sillybunny11486 (Oct 2, 2009)

^^ horses do this to evade people or hes in pain. My old tb would lie in down in the arean when he didnt want to be worked. (before i got him)


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

I just watched the video and read the comments below.. I will never try that.


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## PechosGoldenChance (Aug 23, 2009)

sillybunny11486 said:


> dont you guys see him pushing fingers into the front of the shoulder? There is most likely a nerve there and under the leg near the girth area. I rub behind my horses ears to get them to relax. I do it when the chiropractor is out. It releases endorphines which bring a horses head down, but Ive never seen a horse go down at all or react that fast from it. So I am thinking it is causing either numbness or pain.


As a matter of fact, there is a nerve there, and it's called the eleventh cranial nerve. It is very uncomfortable for the horse when pressed on, and if you press on it you will see how he twitches, this is also why people need to take caution when putting on saddles as this can easily put unwanted pressure on that nerve and irritate the horse when the saddle is not put on correctly. I'm also not sure I like the way they 'bow' if you will (i know thats not what he's trying to do but is there really a difference)? He should not be making them go down like that it is too hard on their joints.


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## sillybunny11486 (Oct 2, 2009)

Id be more worried about the horse falling on me or getting kicked on his way back up. If you need to lay a horse down to get a handle on them, you shouldnt be training horses.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

sillybunny11486 said:


> If you need to lay a horse down to get a handle on them, you shouldnt be training horses.


I guess Clinton Anderson, and other well known clinicians shouldn't be training. It is a tool like any other.


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## sillybunny11486 (Oct 2, 2009)

Lets get the horse to submit to us as much as possible so we can make him do what we want. It kind of makes you look alot like a predator. There are several very sucessful trainers I know who have never needed to pinch a horse's nerve to get them to lay down to teach them anything. Plus the fact its just plane dangerous.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

iridehorses said:


> I guess Clinton Anderson, and other well known clinicians shouldn't be training. It is a tool like any other.


 
Very true. Even in the book and movie "The Horse Wisperer" the horse was laid down and when you involve ropes so many things can go wrong.

For those that feel Paul is a moron you need to do some research before you go slinging that word around. It is not appropiate to call other HF members this and it is not acceptable to do the same to non HF members when it is obvious you have no clue what you are even posting.

Paul sent reports to various respected medical facilities to determine cause and effect and while no conclusive determination was the result, restricting blood flow or nerve pinching was ruled out as having anything to do with his methode.

For those that may remember the many stakes winning horses ( derby winner Fertinand) sold to Japan that ended up in the dog can you must realize that in Japan you either win or you are meat...literally.

95% of the TBs born in Japan go through the breaking process normally with little or no hitches but there are some that will not and it is those that are destined for the dog can. Paul is given those that don't fit. They either come around with him or they are gone PERIOD. He is their last stop.

The video where he is riding the rearer. If That vice was not fixed (prob caused by someone jumping off the horse when it reared, teaching it to get out of work ) it would have taken a short train to the cannery. Paul simply outlasted the horse and returned to back to racing.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

sillybunny11486 said:


> *Lets get the horse to submit to us as much as possible so we can make him do what we want.* It kind of makes you look alot like a predator. There are several very sucessful trainers I know who have never needed to pinch a horse's nerve to get them to lay down to teach them anything. Plus the fact its just plane dangerous.


I have laid several horses down and it is not dangerous at all if done correctly. The reason I started this thread was to see if anyone had laid one down with this method. *The whole idea of training is to get the horse to submit to us as much as possible so we can make them do what we want. *I am a predator. I eat meat and have eyes on the front of my face but my horses don't see me that way nor do most domestic horses see any human that way. I may get around to buying his program just to see what it's about. It's only 50 bucks so I'm not out much if I don't like it. And to veer slightly off topic, I know several highly succesful trainers that are about as cruel to a horse as any person could be and not go to jail so I try not to judge a persons horsemanship by the amount of money or trophies they have.


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## PechosGoldenChance (Aug 23, 2009)

I agree with sillybunny, I would not pinch my horses nerve to make him do that at all. I don't want my horse to do something because he's scared of getting hurt, I want him to do it because he trusts me and feels safe with me. Also, the horses KNOW we are predators even if no force is used, which is why you want a major connection between you and your horse so the horse basically thinks, "Wow, I though he was going to hurt me, now that I know he won't I'm going to stick by him and keep him as my friend and follow him everywhere and listen to everything he has to say because there is nothing better than having a predator as my friend. He will protect me from other predators." This was re-worded from Monty Roberts by the way.


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

I have nothing against what Paul does as a professional with the horses entrusted to him. In fact, I have the utmost respect for him and what he does. He is a trainer's trainer. BECAUSE I feel this way, I don't agree with this method being sold to any Tom, **** or Harry wannabe that has 50 bucks burning a hole in their pocket! The method isn't for novices and shouldn't be done by amateurs. THAT is what I have a problem with. It's just MY PERSONAL opinion, but I don't think anyone and everyone should be laying horses down just because they can! As iridehorses said, it's a TOOL - to be used properly. I wouldn't give this tool to a novice any more than I would give a razor to a monkey.



PechosGoldenChance said:


> Also, the horses KNOW we are predators even if no force is used, which is why you want a major connection between you and your horse so the horse basically thinks, "Wow, I though he was going to hurt me, now that I know he won't I'm going to stick by him and keep him as my friend and follow him everywhere and listen to everything he has to say because there is nothing better than having a predator as my friend. He will protect me from other predators." This was re-worded from Monty Roberts by the way.


And just how do you surmise that a horse KNOWS we're predators? We aren't. We're more scavenger than predator. When we're hungry, we don't chase down and kill our food - we go to the grocery store! Sure we eat meat, but most folks don't know what part of the cow their steak is cut from let alone kill one and eat it raw. Our survival doesn't depend on honing or developing our hunting or predatory skills. A horse with half a brain knows that they can out run us, we don't have very good offensive weapons either - no long teeth or sharp claws and how many natural predators do you know walk upright? I live in Montana and I guarantee you we have predators here that are not above preying on humans as well as horses, cattle, sheep and the occasional dog. True, a horse is a prey animal, and to a REAL predator, so are you. One thing that really makes no sense to me is the belief that a human handler can be both "herd leader" and a "predator" to the horse. I have yet to understand that thinking.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Horse Poor said:


> One thing that really makes no sense to me is the belief that a human handler can be both "herd leader" and a "predator" to the horse. I have yet to understand that thinking.


I think we have the thread winner!!


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## PechosGoldenChance (Aug 23, 2009)

Horse Poor- I don't know...ask Monty Roberts. Did you read the end of my last reply?


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

For whomever mentioned COTH, Endo and his methods were discussed, and the _majority_ of posters agreed that unless the horse was a THREAT and this was its last chance before the kill buyer, it's an unnecessary and _dangerous_ 'training method'.

If you don't believe me, here's a link to the thread in question:

The "TAP" method (endospink) is spreading like wildfire.. opinions? - Chronicle Forums

The fact that Paul Endo is willing to sell his 'method' to any backyard horse owner who doesn't understand the whys and wherefores of laying a horse down, makes him no better in my eyes than the Parellis and their marketing circus.

His method isn't new, nor is it called for unless a horse is rank and otherwise untrainable. Taking a perfectly willing horse and laying it down for no good reason IS moronic.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

Speed Racer said:


> Taking a perfectly willing horse and laying it down for no good reason IS moronic.


Last week I watched one of the episodes with Clinton Anderson training his give away horse Cider. First he did hobble training with her then laid her down. Very humane, non threatening, nothing traumatic for the horse. 

I don't understand the problem people have with the method.


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## PechosGoldenChance (Aug 23, 2009)

iridehorses-well, as you know, everyone has their own opinions about different training methods, some people think it's wrong, others think it's perfectly fine. I guess it's just as hard for you to understand why others think it's wrong as it is for the others who don't understand why you (and a few others) think there's nothing wrong with it. 

I don't think there is anything wrong with it, yet nor would I try to perform it. It's just not my type of training to want to do ya know?


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

Good point. I've owned horses for nearly 30 years and, although I see the point to it, I've never had the need to use it. I'm not opposed to the way Anderson did it - just never had a horse that I though would benefit from it.


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## PechosGoldenChance (Aug 23, 2009)

iridehorses- You are so right!! I've never had a horse to where I thought he/she would benefit from it either.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

PechosGoldenChance said:


> iridehorses- You are so right!! I've never had a horse to where I thought he/she would benefit from it either.


That doesn't mean that they aren't out there. You just haven't found one yet. When you ride several horses a day and change those horses every month or two you see alot of faces in the manger. I can find a way to get most horses over what issues they have without laying them down and if I couldn't lay a horse down I could probably still fix the problem but laying a horse down even if you use evil ropes and saddles is sometimes the most humane way to get them over thier anxiety. There are a lot of people that think they know everything about horses because they have owned a handful of horses in thier lives but with every horse you handle you learn more. It may be a good idea to look a little more carefully at techniques that are used by peope that train horses for a living because if they didn't work or were dangerous they wouldn't use them. If I tie a horses leg up and he ends up crippled then I get a bad reputation and possibly a very expensive, crippled new horse. I would not be in business very long. A person that is just training thier own horse can spend 6 weeks lunging and de spooking and a lot of other nonsense but if you are charging someone to train thier horse and after 6 weeks all you have gotten it to do is step on a tarp and run around in circles I assure you they will not be impressed.


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## PechosGoldenChance (Aug 23, 2009)

Once again, kevinshorses, you do have a point, but so does everyone else on here. I'm sure there are still a lot of things we could all learn about training our horses. I will admit it right now, there are a few things that I KNOW I could learn but as for now, I think I do pretty darn good. I think we all need to give ourselves a pat on the back everynow and than don't you? lol


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

PechosGoldenChance said:


> Once again, kevinshorses, you do have a point, but so does everyone else on here. I'm sure there are still a lot of things we could all learn about training our horses. I will admit it right now, there are a few things that I KNOW I could learn but as for now, I think I do pretty darn good. I think we all need to give ourselves a pat on the back everynow and than don't you? lol


Agreed so long as we don't drop the ball while patting ourselves on the back.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

Hehe Kevin you are such a smartarse, you crack me up...

I must admit, while I watched the video my eyebrow was so high i think it joined my hairline. Not having read anything about the trainer himself or the conditions of his training I was all question marks...

I see now why he does what he does, and good for him.

I have laid a couple of horses down and don't find it moronic at all. I don't think it is necessary to training any animal but definitely helpful and useful. I am o horsey psychologist but I have seen it do wonders for flighty and mistrusting animals, though I personally don't know why, its just one of those things that works sometimes and doesn't others...

I think plenty of people on here jumped to conclusions without knowing the situation. but hey we are just humans right?

And yes, humans are carnivores, we have just taken the old "go beat it with a club and drag it to your cave and eat it" method and replaced it with going to the grocery store, though that is still technically hunting your food... I don't know about you but I am certainly not a scavenger, I selectively seek out my food take it and eat it. We are omnivores if you want to get technical, we eat everything, we are both carnivorous and herbivorous. If you look at a persons teeth you have canines for latching and tearing in to meat just like a lion and molars to grind it just like a horse. 

To a horse we look and move like a predator. We have claws and forward set eyes and move in a predatory way by nature. In acting dominant or "herd leader" we are acting predatory (aggressive, moving quickly and actively). when we lunge a horse we are "stalking" it. When we ride we are watching its movements (again "stalking"). I guess some people just have a problem thinking they are predators. I say "grrr" hehe.

Hehe, ok, off my soap box now, I think I will pat my back and just stick the ball in my mouth for a bit.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Honeysuga said:


> I see now why he does what he does, and good for him.
> 
> I have laid a couple of horses down and don't find it moronic at all. I don't think it is necessary to training any animal but definitely helpful and useful. I am o horsey psychologist but I have seen it do wonders for flighty and mistrusting animals, though I personally don't know why, its just one of those things that works sometimes and doesn't others...


Good for you for taking an objective view.

When the level of maturity drops to the point of calling someone moranic it tells me that maybe the people that do so, are looking in a mirror.:wink:


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

lol, ya, Is it just me or does it sometimes feel like a middle school playground on here? There are many great members who approach each post with dignity and objectiveness, but many more who resort to name calling and belittling... I'd rather be sen as the latter...

Anyhoo, to the Op, I say go for it, buy the stuff, as you said, if you don't like it it's only 50 bucks and if you do, hey another bit of knowledge to add to your skill repetoire!


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