# Parelli - Horsemanship?!



## kevinshorses

We've been there and done that already more than once!!


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## Hoofprints in the Sand

I only watched the first few minutes and it looked like a class on how to whack your horse's chin as hard as you possibly can...geez I just don't get how they call it "natural" anything. 

And like kevinshorses said, I know this debate on the Parelli's has been around for some time and pops up on here a lot!


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## Fluffy Pony

lol might as well use a whip and make contact with the horse....... jeeze parelli people.... seriously how can people not see this? How do you think the horse feels if you smack it in the face with a metal clip?... talk about natural lol.

The part where she takes the arabian from the lady she is totally tense walking and telling the arabian by body language to speed up... so no wonder the horse is tense and trotting up.... then she goes disciplining the horse for doing what she is asking... lol wow


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## Snookeys

This is the first time I've seen this video, but I have heard about her slapping horses in the face with clips. Linda creeps me out, lol


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## StormyBlues

This was also taken very much out of context. She's teaching the ask, tell, demand theory. You ask the horse to back by shaking the lead, tell by shaking it harder, and demand with the pop. Right after the pop you release when the horse does what you want. She doesn't go around hitting horses faces for no reason
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ray MacDonald

Thats not how it was in the video... just sayin

And I actually saw an exact replica of a "carrot stick" in the country co-op today! and guess what? $12.95! BTB lol


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## Skipsfirstspike

I think she is a great trainer. Did you see how perfectly the fence was standing for her? I didn't bother watching the rest..


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## ChevyPrincess

Haha!!! Oh my gosh, really? 

Okay, so, the horse walks calmly behind her, and she starts flapping her armpit like she is trying to do the chicken dance? LOL!!! I wonder if she knows how idiotic it looks? If I saw someone doing that in real life, I would probably fall to my knees laughing. 

And then, you hit the horse in the face with a whip and expect it to follow you? Please!


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## Spyder

StormyBlues said:


> This was also taken very much out of context. She's teaching the ask, tell, demand theory. You ask the horse to back by shaking the lead, tell by shaking it harder, and demand with the pop. Right after the pop you release when the horse does what you want. She doesn't go around hitting horses faces for no reason
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Even under these conditions it is not what any respected trainer would do to get a horse to back up. 

My boy backs up by me simply walking towards him and saying "back".


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## reining girl

i agree with kevin, but since its here i might as well add my two cents.... all shes doing is making that horse not lead correctly. I was taught that a horse should be shoulder to shoulder with you, not behind you. If the horse is behind you, they could spook and run you over.


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## MacabreMikolaj

I have zero problem with the method. Honestly, the Parelli bashing gets a little old. It's the Parelli's themselves I dislike because somehow they can justify using a gum line twitch or popping a horse with a metal clip, but I'm the devil if I wallop my horse for trying to kick me.

It's the hypocrisy that's annoying moreso then the actual method. I've seen a lot worse and I've seen a lot better - not much to get excited about though.


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## mom2pride

While not the way I personally teach a horse to respect my space, it DOES work, and that horse was not afraid at all...jmho. And I agree with who ever mentioned that they are giving a softer cue, then a 'louder' one, and finally the 'loudest' one (horse running into elbow). That horse was obviously VERY intent on everything around him, and was not paying attention to his handler...a horse that is attentive and respectful is not going to be whipping his head around the second he stops, to pay attention to what ever is going on around him...he needs to focus on his handler, and that is what they are trying to achieve...I saw a much more attentive respectful horse by the end of the clip...one that was actually THINKING, instead of reacting.

Oh the one thing that DID make me a bit mad, was that the horse's halter was definitely NOT adjusted properly...now that could cause some problems if the horse decided to really yank and pull away from the handler. Just one of my pet peeves...hate seeing tack that's not properly fitted, especially something as simple as a halter!!!


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## reining girl

true true macabre and mom2pride


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## csuebele

I would tend to agree with those who just think this is the various stages to get the horse to listen to you. If a mild ask does not work you use a stronger one.

While your own horse may back up and do what you want, how long did it take you to get to that point with your horse? If you suddenly have a new horse, that's not listening to you, what are you going to do? Perhaps one that rears while hand walking, tried to bite you, or runs you into fences. I like keeping the horse next to my shoulder, as I've been bitten on the back by our horse, this is how they try and show who's boss, you'll see them do this with other horses to establish a pecking order. But having the horse is at that distance may not be such a bad idea. Spooking and running you down was mentioned. Most horses actually try and avoid hurting their handlers unless they're just plain mean. Having a horse on a long lead gives you time to get out of the way. I was stepped on several time yesterday, while taking a horse for a stroll down a residential street as the rain made the trail to dangerous. Everytime the horse spooked, I got stepped on, because I was too close. Horses are very fast and extreamly strong, as I'm sure you all know. I doubt most of you could actually push a 1200 pound animal away from your if it panicked. The long lead line and the snapping of the lead gives you a margin of safety and a way to control the horse without endangering yourself.


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## kevinshorses

ChevyPrincess said:


> Haha!!! Oh my gosh, really?
> 
> Okay, so, the horse walks calmly behind her, and she starts flapping her armpit like she is trying to do the chicken dance? LOL!!! I wonder if she knows how idiotic it looks? If I saw someone doing that in real life, I would probably fall to my knees laughing.


It may look a little silly but it looks far more silly to have a horse pushing a person around or running circles around him. If you let a horse walk shoulder to shoulder with you and something spooks it from the other side you WILL get stepped on. I make my horses lead behind me so that if something spooks them they will jump past me instead of on me.


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## mom2pride

kevinshorses said:


> It may look a little silly but it looks far more silly to have a horse pushing a person around or running circles around him. If you let a horse walk shoulder to shoulder with you and something spooks it from the other side you WILL get stepped on. I make my horses lead behind me so that if something spooks them they will jump past me instead of on me.


Agreed...I won't let a horse walk 'next' to me until I know he respects my space; even so my current horse prefers to walk slightly behind me...she's just more respectful of my space than others who "have" to be right at your side.


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## kevinshorses

It's really not about respect. If a horse is walking at your shoulder and you are holding the lead rope at the snap the horse has NO CHOICE but to step on you if it spooks and we all know from experience that any horse can spook.


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## mom2pride

I never hold the snap anyway...Lol! And that's the first thing I tell people when I am teaching them to lead a horse DON'T hold the snap!! Why? because if the horse get's clausterphobic, or spooks, geuss where he has to go??? Only one way; on top of you! But the holding the snap or halter is the 'normal' reaction of most people, because you would feel like you have more control over the animal...much like with dogs, and people grasping the collar for dear life...you "feel" more in control, when in reality you are not.

I still teach a horse to walk next to me, as I do like to occasionally show, but for the most part, I prefer if they aren't "right there" all the time.


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## Snookeys

Spyder said:


> Even under these conditions it is not what any respected trainer would do to get a horse to back up.
> 
> My boy backs up by me simply walking towards him and saying "back".


So do the Parelli-trained horses. Watch videos of the Yo-Yo game. They learn to back up unless they're invited forward. I'm sure it took some amount of training before your horse got to that point, though? I don't think any horse will just automatically know what "back" means and associate it with the action unless they are taught...

Think of the alternatives Linda has. She can let the horse run over her (or the owner), or she can demand her space. If she is flapping the rope and using those big movements to get the horse's attention (which seems silly and cruel, but makes sense), she is teaching the horse that it is uncomfortable for it to be in her space and running her over. Some things during the video I didn't agree with... but really, it's not outlandish I don't think.


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## Spyder

Snookeys said:


> I'm sure it took some amount of training before your horse got to that point, though? I don't think any horse will just automatically know what "back" means and associate it with the action unless they are taught...


My point was that I didn't have to take a lead and shank it in his face to get what I wanted.

A few sessions of just putting my hand on his chest and applying pressure with the word was enough.

And how long did it take? By age 2 he had all the fundamentals needed including lateral work and I hadn't even sat on him. 

Whipping leads in their faces so they back out of fear is never a good way to train.


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## meemoicloee23

this is all crap. i don't belive in force but i also don't belive in naturtal hormanship. i belive you should ern your horses trust then teach him thing with respect for him, learn you boundrys when he learn his. i still think natural hosemanship is fake.


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## Mickey4793

I do NOT get what they are trying to accomplish with the horse. Maybe it's because I'm watching it without the sound out of respect for others in the room? But what the hell is this woman doing? This is what I see: Horse walking calmly behind her, so she starts violently flailing the lead at him, horse gets really tense, and she continues to flail it.

What the eff is going on here?


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## Grumps

StormyBlues said:


> This was also taken very much out of context. She's teaching the ask, tell, demand theory. You ask the horse to back by shaking the lead, tell by shaking it harder, and demand with the pop. Right after the pop you release when the horse does what you want. She doesn't go around hitting horses faces for no reason
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How do you take a video out of context? Would you enjoy me snapping a metal type clasp on your chin? Ever wondered why you are hearing more about animal trainers and there almost fatal attacks, this type of manhandleing is how starts. I have seen Parelli's and other training techniques and I have one question for all, ever had two horses or any other animal with the same personality? how do you expect to train every horse with the same techniques when there are no two animals alike.


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## Ray MacDonald

Good post ^^


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## csuebele

Grumps said:


> I have one question for all, ever had two horses or any other animal with the same personality? how do you expect to train every horse with the same techniques when there are no two animals alike.


Yes, no two animals are alike. Our two horses are SO DIFFERENT! One is very sweet and timid, the other very bossy and mischievious. I have not done Parellis, so I'm not saying their method is correct, but I think the point of the video was to teach the student how much force you may have to use not that you do have to use that much force to get the horse to listen to you. If the horse responds with a gentle wiggle of the lead or a push of the hand - great. Some don't and more force is needed. Our first horse had horrible ground manners when we got him. He would rear on me, bite me, run me into fences, etc. I didn't know about the Parelli stuff when we got him, so a lot was trial and error. He got the handle end of a crop on his nose numerous times every time he tried to bite me. He would lower his head in a submissive pose, but I could see him looking at me waiting for a chance to attack. He would normally do this if someone walked by me and distracted me by saying, "Hello." Now this all may sound like I'm heavy handed, but this is what was required to get him in line - he wants to be the boss, so I have to be extra alert to this. He has gotten much better, especially after a bowed tendon, where I had to hand walk him for months. The other horse is such a dream to walk, other than she's timid and tend to spook easily and often land on my feet. Each horse is different, but they mostly they all tend to react a certain way to things like shaking the lead, so it can be used in various degrees depending upon the horse.


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## mom2pride

Mickey4793 said:


> I do NOT get what they are trying to accomplish with the horse. Maybe it's because I'm watching it without the sound out of respect for others in the room? But what the hell is this woman doing? This is what I see: Horse walking calmly behind her, so she starts violently flailing the lead at him, horse gets really tense, and she continues to flail it.
> 
> What the heck is going on here?


You totally missed the actions that caused them to ask the horse to back off...horse rushes forward and passed handler, or rushes up against handler, pushes at handler, etc...THESE are the actions they were retraining the horse against. When he was walking nicely, they left him alone. Yes, they were still teaching him to back off per cue (which started with a light lead shake), it was only when he persisted in pushing against that, and still went rushing foward and evaded what the handler (s) were asking, that they upped the level of the cue. 

I don't see fear in that horse...and I think some people tend to think that ask, tell, demand is "too hard" for a horse to understand. I don't. What do horses do to each other in the pasture? Pin an ear, and look in the direction of the horse being 'asked' to move, if that don't work a few steps toward horse, and if that don't work, the horse telling other horse to move, steps into action; either biting or by kicking the other horse to make him MOVE NOW! I am totally "for" being as kind as I can to a horse, but I WILL be as firm as necessary to keep myself, AND the horse out of danger, and being injured. If that means the occasional pop by a lead rope clip so be it, because I would prefer to have the horse aware of me, than running over or right by me, like the Arab in this video. That's asking for trouble...more so for the handler, but the horse could get loose, and be in even more danger, so the street goes both ways. 

Now am I 'into' the NH craze? No, because I've used alot of similar methods since I was a kid, and was taught those methods by other trainers who had been in the training business for years and years prior to that...I prefer to call it common sense and just good horsemanship. NH, if you want to call it that has been around for years and years...it's just that popular trainers have made it more "well known".


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## kevinshorses

meemoicloee23 said:


> this is all crap. i don't belive in force but i also don't belive in naturtal hormanship. i belive you should ern your horses trust then teach him thing with respect for him, learn you boundrys when he learn his. i still think natural hosemanship is fake.


But spell check is very real and would vastly improve your posts.


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## mom2pride

Oh and csuebele hit the nail on the head in regard to how to handle each horse...with some horses all it will take IS a shake of the lead, or even the appearance that that is coming. Others, you may have to get louder like the Arab in the vid...instead of backing off, he raced foward and tried to avoid what was being asked, so they had to up the cue. Pretty simple in my book, and that "method" works in any horse....ask tell demand...some horses will never need more than the "ask" phase, where others are always dwelling in the "demand"; such as the case of the dominant horse in csue's post.


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## GreyRay

Ask, Tell, Demand. I use this a lot when training a horse to do something. But what I saw was 'ask, DEMAND DEMAND DEMAND' and than a little extra DEMAND just in case the horse didnt get it the last 5 pops.

What really bothers me is Linda thinks its funny. Every time that horse got a full blow she made an evil blood chilling 'giggle'. Is it somehow plesant to hurt a horse? 

I will go as far as I have to, to get a specific reaction. But once I get it I stop and praise, rinse and repete. Linda just likes to keep going... Her mental health worries me!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grumps

I have a horse that came to me a total man hater, bit my son in the arm, bit my wife in the back and kicked at people. Took me a month to figure out why he was doing this. The problem was corrected and is a excellent horse and not once did I whip him with any device and the refer to it as some fancy name like " ask, tell, demand" Remember, it takes months to correct behavor with your children, why expect it to be corrected in a few days with a horse. Maybe more time understanding the horse and he/she's behavior and why there would be less frustration between horse and the owner.


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## csuebele

Grumps said:


> I have a horse that came to me a total man hater, bit my son in the arm, bit my wife in the back and kicked at people. Took me a month to figure out why he was doing this. The problem was corrected and is a excellent horse and not once did I whip him with any device and the refer to it as some fancy name like " ask, tell, demand" Remember, it takes months to correct behavior with your children, why expect it to be corrected in a few days with a horse. Maybe more time understanding the horse and he/she's behavior and why there would be less frustration between horse and the owner.


I'm always curious about horse's behavior. What did you find was the issue with this horse, and how did you handle him getting over this?

As I mentioned in one of my previous post, I used the handle end of a crop to keep him from biting me. I held the crop in the same hand as I did the lead and when he turned his head to bite, he ran his mouth into the crop end. In this way (from what I've read) they don't associate the hard crop end so much with you, but their action of turning their head. I've never whipped a horse. And this took years to over come. My daughter would not hand walk him until recently. It's was not that he was mean and had an issue with humans as your horse seemed to, he just wants to be the boss.

As far as the video goes. I'm not familiar with this trainer, but to me it looks like she was trying to emphasize what it might need to take to get the horse in line, as the girl she was instructing was having difficulty. Not seeing the trainer actually training a horse makes it hard to make a call about how she treats horses. But I would agree that if you can avoid using harsh methods the better.

As far as this being harsh by hitting the horse in the chin with the clip, I would have to say this is on par with using a stud chain over the nose. How many of you have never used a stud chain to control a horse that had way too much energy and is dragging you down a trail? I've seen people really yank on these - something I refuse to do.

Horses do learn from bad behavior from humans - and I don't mean that in a good way, as in the case of this last post. They will associate other people with things other have done to them. When we got our last horse, she would shy every time I raised my hand to pet her cheek. It was clear to me that she had been slapped more than once. I've gotten her over this.

In an previous post, it was mentioned how rough horses are with each other when vying for dominance. A snap of a clip is much less severe that a hoof in the face. Again, I'll mention an incident with our dominate pony: I was leading him past a horse that shares a corral next to his, which we have to go though to get to his. The other horse was right next to the gate we had to enter. I had our pony on a short lead. He bit at this horse's flank and the horse kicked at him and him me in the hand. Had I have him on a longer lead, I would not have been kicked, which was more painful than a clip hitting my hand.

Like anything, a horse will get use to the shaking of the lead. From my understanding, which is limited, it is merely to get the horses attention to focus back on you. If you just keep shaking the lead as this student was doing, the horse will get use to it and not pay attention, so the instructor was showing how to be more severe; however, that may not have been nessesary if the student had applied just enough wiggle to the lead to get the horse's attention then stop. You've always got to stop the correction the second the horse does what you want it to do. This also goes for pulling on the reins.


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## Grumps

Csuebele:
The first part was understanding why the horse would bite, in my case it turned out the horse was teased by previous teenage owners with food. The horse (Apache) knew his behavor was wrong due to he would run from you after he bit or kicked you. The end of the crop is an excellent trick and in my case Apache had to be placed in a controled enviroment where I had control and I was able to correct his actions without him running off. As far as the video, the only thing I seen taught is now the horse is more likely to be a head tosser and everytime that girl comes out with a lead rope the horse is going to associate pain with it. What happens to horses that kick each other, they are not very good friends and so anyone that the horse associates pain with is going to have trouble. I can get my horses to back up without a lead rope or halter on them. Another thing, what is the problem with the horse invading your space, we invade thier space everytime we handle them. Are we saying trust me but I can't trust you? My horses rub there faces on me. give me kisses, etc because I trust them, you have to if you want a solid bond. All I can say is you will never solve problems if you only spend an hour a day with the horse and you will never solve anything trying to instill fear in them. Not one of those handlers spent 20 minutes in a lawn chair observing the horse in its enviroment and asking themselves why they act that way! My wife sat in a chair and watched a rescue horse for quite some time because he kept laying down, then getting back up, then would eat more grass. Normally a colicing horse will not try to eat anymore, because of the pain. This horse was already starved by someone else, and the need to eat over took the pain feeling. My wife watched this horse and followed her gut feeling, and called the vet. By the time the vet got to our ranch the horse was in full colic, and didnt want to even stand up. It is very important to spend time with your horse (sometimes from a distance) to understand the dynamics of that particular horse. We take this approach with every horse we have had, and we have had awesome results on correcting bad behavior, and we never had to lay a hand on them in a mean way.


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## Ray MacDonald

Thats good horsemanship ^^


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## csuebele

Grumps, I totally agree with you about observing your horse and trying to find the root cause of the issues, such as the teenagers teasing the horse. Such horses do need special attention to overcome the problem as opposed to the horse's innate behavior of being submissive or dominate. I don't have too much of a problem of having the horse invade my space, unless I start getting stepped on or run into fences or thorny bushes. I'm actually a bit lax on that. Our pony was small enough 14.1 and I was strong enough that I could usually push or pull him to where I wanted him and get him to do what I wanted. My daughter could not. He was great when she rode him, but his ground manners were horrible. I did teach him the command, "Head forward." He would put his head down and look at me, which I knew he was trying to figure a way to nip at me. Now I must say in his defense, he was not acting mean in his biting. He would start with a little mouthing action of his lips, and if left unchecked turned into a full on bite. He would also grab the lead and want to lead you. the previous owners allowed this, and it has taken a long time to get him over it, which he is still not completely over. I was surprised at how much pressure the halter applies to the horses head, as when he had the lead in his mouth, it was extremely difficult for lead him around.

Frankly I ride very little. I mainly focused on handling the horses on the ground, as my daughter rides and is a far better rider than I'll ever be. Now that we bought a second horse, as my daughter was getting too big for the pony (according to the judges), I'm starting to ride the pony; and we're getting along great. He does try a few tricks on me, but I've picked up enough from listening to my daughter's lessons, that I can quickly get him in line. Despite the pony's bad manners, I love the guy and his personality. He's funny and is not just a lump waiting to be lead around.

Here's a link to some photos of him and my daughter


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## Tymer

Personally, I believe the only thing truely RIGHT with this method of training is the ask-tell-demand theory. From my perspective, that horse was thoroughly confused by what the lead shaking meant. I know that when I shake a leadrope, 90% of the horses just look at me like I'm crazy. Then I saw them "telling" him by popping it a little, and he seemed to find it unpleasant but still not getting that it was supposed to mean "get out of my space" especially with zero body language cues (from the girl. Linda nearly ran that horse over.) Then, with demand, he finally got it. 
The process is right by the books, but there are definitely better, more efficient ways of teaching a horse to back up and respect your space without initially confusing them. 

Obviously this method works, but I don't think its the safest, most refined, or appropriate method. Maybe a variation that doesn't involve as much wiggling of a leadrope?


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## Kay26

Hmmm i really not a fan of the training methods i witnessed in the video there. I have no intention of 'bashing' natural horsemanship as i have seen some pretty impressive horses who have been trained using it but this to me doesn't seem the best way to teach personal space.

To me from what i seen the horse didn't seem particularly disrespectful, it wasn't bolshy or aggressive, infact i would have been pretty happy with the way it was leading if it was my horse.

I think these methods are confusing for the horse, to me the horse doesn't seem to really know whats going on and the girl who is being told what to do doesn't seem to understand why she's doing it either, shes just reacting when Linda shouts at her. 

Another horse would chase the horse away if it felt it was too close, so i get the pushing it out your space, but i feel the way it was executed was very over the top.

Though i said i don't want to bash Linda it also annoys me that people automaticly believe everything she says, i understand she is experienced but what happened to questioning things or taking 2nd opinions ?
I think if you make one person 'god' in your eyes as always being right you narrow your own ability to learn the alternative methods.


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## mom2pride

I never said I agree with everything this trainer says...just the theory in and of itself. I think you've got to get a horse staying out of your space from a standstill, first then work on walking, and keeping him out of your space, but that's just me. And while this horse wasn't aggressive, he was far from polite, he didn't care if he ran up his handler's rear, or pushed her out of the way with his shoulder...that IS rude, and that is the start of a horse becoming more and more pushy, until he does start biting or rearing up to make his handler move. Like I said, it's not the method I would personally choose, as I would get the horse staying out of my space from a standstill, or work at yielding hind and fore quarters so he learns that I control his feet, not the other way around. I use alot of different trainers techniques, it all depends on the horse I am working with.


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## kevinshorses

I rode a horse earlier this year that was very pushy. When I started to correct her she went from pushy to dangerously aggressive. I had to escalate to smacking her in the face with the tail of my lead rope. It was back-braided for about four inches and when it hit it sounded like a hammer hitting a watermelon but it got her attention and I was able to get HER to move her feet. I never had another problem the rest of the time I rode her. She was never head shy from the experience either. My point with all this is that horses are not as fragile as some would think and you may have to use a lot more force with one than you will with another to get the job done. If I would have whacked on a more sensitive horse like that I could have done some damage but that was what this horse needed.


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## mom2pride

Kevin, don't bring back the memories, that Appy I had last year for a while was SOOO bad when I got him...uggh!!! He didn't care if he ran over the top of you (I actually lost my cell phone one time, because he came in and around, and at the last moment into my hip, despite the fact that I had a stick to push him away; that's the only thing that kept him from actually going OVER me, was the fact that I whacked him pretty hard upside the neck and he realized that I was there, and was not moving just cause he didn't want to move away from the pen.). I WILL not allow a horse move my feet, and call the shots, period...they are much to big for that, and more damage will be done by allowing them to think that they call the shots, than if you simply gain the respect needed. I just don't understand why alot of people don't get that. There is a HUGE difference between a horse and a chihuahua, you know?


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## Grumps

Exactly my point, why would you ever want to physically challenge a horse. It is a mind game and if you need to hit a horse to get them to do what you want I guess I would question your ability to use your mind. I understand the part of maybe self defense when the horse knocked you down but I am sure there were previous warning signs of the horses mental state.Kevin unless it says DVM somewhere behind your name I would imagine you would be guessing at the amount of damage you could be doing internally. This womens idea of control was wrong and out of line so I am not sure why the nesesity to defend it. I find it interesting that all statements about a rude out of control horse starts with " I got this horse". Took months to get a horse to act that way and it will take months to cure it. There is a huge difference between me and the size of my horses, the idea is the horse doesn't know that and I use it to my advantage. A mind game. If I want to beat and brawl I can go down to the local bar for that.


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## kevinshorses

I don't need to go to vet school to know that I can't hurt a horse physically with a cotton rope. I have a horse skull in my tack shed and it is quite a thick robust piece of bone. The damage I was refering to was mental more than physical. You can play all the mind games you want but eventually the rubber has to meet the road. Just because it took months for a horse to get that disrespectful doesn't mean that you can't fix it in a matter of a few days.


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## dedebird

i didn't bother reading the whole thread but the whole keep your horse out of your space thing is a good thing but is it bad when my lovely horse is like a puppy dog and litteraly follows me without needing any lead rope or smacking??


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## Grumps

More horses in the ground over the whole I am my own vet mentality. It is your way of handling your horse. much like the instant quick fix the people look for instead taking the extra time and I am guessing by the way you worded it you don't have this horse anymore. who knows, mabe the next owner is getting the backlash just like I said, the phrase is " I got this horse". The last person was a so called DVM expert horse training know it all.


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## Beauseant

Hmmm.....

This thread is interesting to say the least. 

My son is currently training a five yr. old OTTB....what we have found is that there is no cut and dried "right way". Sorry folks, but there it is. 

He's a very low key, non aggressive guy. He's studied different techniques: Clinton Anderson he dismissed, to aggressive. We've seen him actually KICK a horse in the belly with his cowboy boot ....

Parelli methods he likes...for the most part.

My son is now being trained in this resistance free Richard Schrake training....it's early on in this training technique learning...so he hasn't made a decision on it yet. BUT his trainer has told him to ditch the rope halter he is using on his TB....ok, he tried that..... within ONE day the TB was being bossy and rude. BACK TO THE ROPE HALTER ...for now. Maybe at some point the TB won't need a rope halter, but it is not today... My son's Schrake trainer is not going to like this, but we tried it her way. Our TB is still not far enough along in his training to do without the rope halter...yet. 

HOWEVER, the Clinton anderson rope halter we are using MAY VERY WELL be too severe....it has four Knots on the nose band .....ok, yea, maybe that it a bit too much as our TB is usually very low key and calm. 

So, we've ordered a Parelli rope halter...with only two knots on the nose band.... a bit kinder than the Anderson halter...but still a rope halter.

Point is: My son is very non aggressive in his training techniques, and he likes Parelli methods. He is now learning the Schrake technique from his trainer....this method is supposedly the kindest and gentlest of the three methods. It's too early for him to decide whether he likes Schrake's methods or not....but the rope halter issue he is having with his Schrake trainer is a problem. In the arena doing ground work, our TB is always calm and willing and friendly...that's how the Schrake trainer saw him...she didn't see him on a cool, windy day when he's got his blood up....

My son has decided that, in the end, it's his horse and which method he uses will be what he thinks is best. BEST, in his definition, is what gets you the results you want with the least "force" possible. And that varies from horse to horse....therefore, no ONE technique is right for every horse. 

Dismissing parelli out of hand is rather like tunnel vision. If his methods are too much for you to swallow and you can train your horse in a kinder and gentler way...great. But all horses are not the same..... Just be glad you got a horse that doesn't need a firmer hand.....because then you might have a problem on your hands.


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## Silverada

that blonde... I want to do the same to her mouth!


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## Beauseant

What a constructive, well thought out and eloquent post.


*rolls eyes*


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## franknbeans

No one trainer, NH or otherwise, has all the answers, IMO. The more we learn from ANY of them, the more "tools" we have to use when we need them. Watch, learn and use what you like and need. More knowledge is never a bad thing. They all have SOMETHING to offer. JMHO.

And Kevin-totally agree with you. Grumps-seriously, Kevin never said he was a vet, and if you really think that a rope like Kevin is referring to can seriously injure a horse-guess you better get the bubble wrap out for yours. They never go out with other horses? That is FAR more dangerous! 

I use the swinging end of my rope all the time. If I go out to get my horse and others won't let me get him or get in our space...it is swinging. Most know what it does and leave us be, but for those who don't-oh well. They usually learn the first time it gets in their way. I am not about to get hurt by another horse while trying to get mine. Guess it is a good thing your horse is not out with mine. ;-)

As far as LP-Not a fan. However, I do not think that a rope halter or a swinging clip under their chin is too harsh, when needed and used correctly to get respect. 

Re: Clinton kicking a horse-well, frankly, I will too if they are kicking at me. Again-pales in comparison to what another horse would do to them. Dangerous behavior is NEVER ok.


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## Beauseant

Uh...it wasn't kicking at him. He was trying to get it's attention.

Even so, i'm not sure kicking a horse even if it WAS kicking at you is very productive....or safe. They can kick harder and have more reach.

Other than that, I agree with the above post 100%. That's what my son is doing, learning different training methods and taking what works and what his own code of ethics dictates is humane and going with that.

Perfect solution, it allows you to stick to your own definition of humane and get the results you want at the same time.


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## kitten_Val

Beauseant said:


> Even so, i'm not sure kicking a horse even if it WAS kicking at you is very productive....or safe. They can kick harder and have more reach.


I smack the kicking horse HARD on butt with whatever I have in hands. From my experience it's been very productive and the horse still not afraid of you.


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## Beauseant

smacking a kicking horse on the butt is not the same as kicking a horse in the belly to get it's attention....

As I said in above post, the horse Anderson kicked was not kicking at him, he was showing the audience how to get a horse's attention....so where this kicking horse stuff came up is a mystery to me.


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## franknbeans

The video I saw has been referred to LONG ago on this forum somewhere, the horse was actually lifting its back foot. 

Just so we are clear-if a horse is acting dangerously toward me I will use the 3 seconds I have (for them to remember) and smack them, kick them, whatever.....I realize this offends some of you all, but so be it. Rarely will they do it again. I would be very hard pressed to do something that even remotely compares to what another horse would do in the same situation.


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## Beauseant

I don't know the video you are referring to, I've not seen it.

The incident I am describing is in regards to getting a horse's attention...i.e. getting a horse to focus on you. The only leg action in the incident that I am referring to was Anderson's.


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## Beauseant

I don't know the video you are referring to, I've not seen it.

The incident I am describing is in regards to getting a horse's attention...i.e. getting a horse to focus on you. The only leg action in the incident that I am referring to was Anderson's.

As for kicking a horse that is acting dangerously towards you, well...to each his own....I am just not really understanding how that is productive or why one would do such a thing to get a message across that could be sent another way. OR how it is in any way safe to engage in a kicking contest in which you are not evenly matched....because some horses will kick back at you even more if you kick at them. Our TB would be one such horse...

And he DID have a kicking problem.... when turned out to pasture...he didn't kick at us per se, but would gallop off when released and kick out in excitement in our general direction, sometimes closer than was comfortable. We fixed it by doing lots of yo yo game and yielding the hindquarters BEFORE being released. No physical contact was needed. To yield the hindquarters, all it took was at first, swinging the rope at them, then later just pointing at them. Now, when he is turned out....he will stand, then calmly walk off....and when he needs to run or buck for excitement, he does so after we have exited the pasture. Sure, we could have kicked him back...but that would not have been as safe, nor would it have been necessary when simple yielding the hindquarters exercises could have fixed the problem. i also do not think it would have been productive in the case of our particular 5 yr. old OTTB. He's EXTREMELY dominant and when his pasture mates kick at him, he goes after them with a vengence. don't know if that would work the same with humans, but i wouldnt want to find out...especially if you can find a kinder, gentler more productive way to communicate with your horse and get your message across....and fix the problem.

Our trainer originally came at our OTTB with aggression, and figured out pretty quick, she isn't going to get anything but aggression back.... she now works with him in a softer way and he is 100% agreeable. 

I can almost guarantee you that if Anderson would've kicked ouR OTTB, he'd be engaged in a kicking match he is likely to lose.... I've seen Beau do it with his equine playmates...which is why he has so few. Even our Barn owner no longer wants him turned out with her TBs, during a rough and tumble play session, her horse kicked out at Beau and he nailed him on the cannon bone a heck of a shot, giving the other horse a nasty cut. 

At his previous home, he had to be turned out with cows due to his not playing nice with others.

He is one horse you cannot approach with aggression. so, heavy handed methods would not work on him...our trainer tried it...briefly. 

My son's approach was to first form a bond with him, then to establish that my son controls your food and your feet, therefore he is your leader. After that, things have gone relatively smoothly. He learns what the rules are, and obeys them....because the leader he loves and trusts...and feeds him.... says so. Not from fear, pain or from aggression. IMO, that is the best approach to horse training.


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## csuebele

I would never kick a horse, but I did backhand our pony the time he bit me on my back. I reacted so quickly I didn't really think about it, and caught him by complete surprise. He hasn't tried that again. I do see people jerking on stud chains and repeatedly whipping their horse, which I consider abuse: one correction then release. If they continue, repeat again, but don't just go off the chain. It is amazing how fast horses can be and how dangerous: Our vet was giving our pony a block in his leg for a procedure she was going to do. She doped him up really good with a general first. He had his head near the ground he was so drugged. The vet lifted his left front leg to give him the block, and when she did, he kicked her across the knees with his back left foot, all the while standing only on his right legs. Our vet then told us about a time that she had doped up another horse for some procedure and when she started the horse came out of its stupor, grabbed her by the breast and threw her across the corral. My wife made the mistake of trying to hoof pick our pony while he was eating and not having him in a cross tie. The neighbor's horses came running up the hill, spooked him, he spun around, kicked out, and kicked my wife in the face - breaking her nose.


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## Beauseant

You are so right! In the blink of an eye, you can have a crisis on your hands. Believe me, I know...I'm sure all horse owners do. 

Our vet was telling us a bunch of horror stories when she did our boy's sheath cleaning in the spring...stories of horses who kick out while drugged or when just coming out of it. 


As for smacks, I think most of us have done that at one time or another....

I don't consider that abuse. I dont think most people would...of course, that is a gray area, and one person's abuse is another person's training method. 

I guess it is just a personal issue. We don't like Anderson. We do like Parelli. Schrake...well, we're just learning his techniques, so it's too early to tell..... shcrake, being the kindest and gentlest method, if it works, then we'll use it.... if not, then we'll have to use the firmer Parelli method. LUCKILY, neither of our horses is "bad" enough to need the Anderson method.


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## mom2pride

Beauseant said:


> smacking a kicking horse on the butt is not the same as kicking a horse in the belly to get it's attention....
> 
> As I said in above post, the horse Anderson kicked was not kicking at him, he was showing the audience how to get a horse's attention....so where this kicking horse stuff came up is a mystery to me.


If a horse is busy walking all over me and otherwise just being a jerk, and flipping the lead at his butt isn't getting him to turn around and give me two eyes, then sure, I jab him with my knee (probably not actually kick hiim, as I'm not that flexible). I would rather the horse be like "oooph...what was that?" and actually turn and pay attention to me, than continue ignoring, and possibly hurt myself, and himself. And honestly, do you really think a human foot could hurt a horse? I mean really? They thwack each other in the pasture MUCH harder than ANY human could and walk away from it without so much as a black and blue mark...horses are NOT covered in eggshells people!


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## Beauseant

I never argued that they WERE covered in eggshells. I argue that kicking a horse is not the best NOR the most effecient way to communicate your wishes!!! NUFF SAID!


As for what they do in pasture: they kick EACH OTHER, bite EACH OTHER and hurt EACH OTHER all the time. SO what??? if you want to act like a horse, who cares.....Let your horse think you are horse, and have fun!! lol

For me personally, we want our horse to realize that WE ARE NOT HORSES (to be bit, kicked and "played with in their equine herd manner"} we are HUMAN leaders. 

If you want to act like one of the herd and be treated like one of the herd, that's fine with me, people!

So, y'all can make fun with your "bubble wrap" and "eggshells" comments, but they really aren't as witty comebacks as you like to think. Really, they are just justifications for your idea of a quick fix to bad behaviour rather taking the time to communicate with your horse and FIXING the bad behaviour permanently. 

you do it your way, i'll do it mine....that way we're both happy....but leave out the condescending tone, disrespectful "people" salutations and cliche comebacks that are meant to make others feel dumb....it won't work with this gal!


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## Beauseant

So, in summation: I wish every horse kicker out there could come to my barn and show my EXTREMELY dominant OTTB that you want him to treat you like one of the herd by acting like a horse yourself and kicking him.....
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

I'll sit back and enjoy the show.:clap: Popcorn, anyone????

You may ask, why is that funny?? Because our OTTB doesn't HAVE a herd, he's kicked the snot out of everyone he's been pastured with. You wouldn't want him to think FOR ONE MINUTE that you are to be treated like a horse...you really wouldn't.


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## kitten_Val

Beauseant said:


> Really, they are just justifications for your idea of a quick fix to bad behaviour rather taking the time to communicate with your horse and FIXING the bad behaviour permanently.


I respectfully disagree with your statement. It all depends on horse and situation. The correction done promptly and sharp is not just a quick fix, but often a permanent fix to the certain unpleasant behavior.


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