# Teaching myself dressage - critique?



## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

More supportive outside rein, more leg especially through transitions, more figures... don't just go loop around over and over. Do 10 meter circles, serpentines, 20 m circles, diagonal change of rein, down the centerline both from A to C and E to B (I think it's E to B.. I'm a tad rusty)

But looking great!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I agree that you'll want more outside rein connection. But, in general, you are a tidy rider and have a good solid seat. I don't have much specific to add, but you are doing well and I can imagine you'd be really awesome with lessons!


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## juniormylove (Aug 28, 2008)

Skyseternalangel said:


> More supportive outside rein, more leg especially through transitions, more figures... don't just go loop around over and over. Do 10 meter circles, serpentines, 20 m circles, diagonal change of rein, down the centerline both from A to C and E to B (I think it's E to B.. I'm a tad rusty)
> 
> But looking great!


I definitely do need to use the arena more. I do use serpentines a lot, mostly so that we can get through the scary end of the arena without him realizing we're getting closer to the scary end of the arena  But yeah...I get so focused on making him go forward that I forget that I actually have an arena not cluttered up with jumps and other horses 



tinyliny said:


> I agree that you'll want more outside rein connection. But, in general, you are a tidy rider and have a good solid seat. I don't have much specific to add, but you are doing well and I can imagine you'd be really awesome with lessons!


Thank you! I'm slowly starting to feel more comfortable and balanced in the dressage saddle (it's been a process to get my stirrups as long as they are).
I would love to take lessons, but I can barely afford the (insanely cheap) lease on Zeb so paying for lessons is currently out of the question. I may drag my roommate out to the barn in the near future if I can, since she's been riding dressage for a few years now and has a fantastic coach and knows more of what to look for.


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

Wow, if you look that good self taught, imagine what you could do with a good instructor. Love your quiet seat and hands. That's perfect that your horse was trained to second level. He's got all the cues down and balance necessary to do the job without being a "make me" horse. Some of those upper level horses don't budge and inch if your position is off by a centimeter. I would start working on more transitions within the gaits and remember shoulder-fore is your best friend heading into spooky corners.


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## smguidotti (Jul 31, 2012)

I adore your horse! And I also agree you are a very talented! I am in a similar position as you -- training alone (can't afford it). 

This is what I noticed: The canter is better than the walk and trot -- therefore if he was my horse, I would take him all the way back to the walk. Also, in my opinion, the issue of him spooking could be caused from anxiety while being ridden . . . I'll explain later . . .

So, he carries himself very high and stiff. I don't know what your understanding of "dressage" is but to me this says your horse is not relaxed or supple thus killing the "rythem". 

Your horse is clearly athletic but never learned to carry himself properly. So what you have is a horse that is very capable but has a holes in his training -- be patient with him.

The next time you ride only focus on improving the walk. Ask him to stretch his neck down and out essentially like a western pleasure horse but keeping the contact. He needs to know he can trust you; that is, if he stretches down that far, you're still "there" guiding him. In addition, he needs to know that you will not pull on his mouth harshly. This probably sounds silly but it's harder than people think. FOr me it was the hardest part with my mare. but once we nailed this everything else just started working the way it's supposed to. 

You should also notice that the more comfortable he becomes with "developing the stretch" the less apt his to spook because he has become more trusting of you. 

I really recommend watching these videos from Art2ride. I honestly have become a much more "aware" rider.


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## smguidotti (Jul 31, 2012)

I also wanted to add that while I do agree with Skyseternangel about the different activities to practice I don't think your horse is ready. He does not know how to move forward with out hollowing his back and stiffening his neck strait into the air. Doing so would only reinforce bad habits on his part. 

Instead, once you have him stretching, first try doing some leg yields. Can he hold the position? If not, tight circles and serpentines are probably only going to frustrate him. If yes, move onto the trot and see what happens.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

that's a great video! 
the only thing I wish is that they explained more in detail what the rider was doing, in the form of leg and/or hand aids, to encourage this stretch.


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## smguidotti (Jul 31, 2012)

tinyliny said:


> that's a great video!
> the only thing I wish is that they explained more in detail what the rider was doing, in the form of leg and/or hand aids, to encourage this stretch.


Yes, I know -- but unfortunately I think that is just something people have to figure the out on their own -- you can't teach "feel"!

This is what I have been teaching my body to do in an attempt to keep my mare in a solid stretch at the trot (which we can do quite well at this point) -- sorry if some of this is a no brainer but here it goes . . .

HANDS: I don't really worry too much about keeping them in that traditional dressage position such as in this picture (which I also like to think of as the "neutral position"): http://fineartamerica.com/images-medium-5/art-of-dressage-fran-j-scott.jpg
I mean, that position only works if your horse already understands what to do AND can hold himself in such position. 
I focus on keeping the "connection" with the horse's mouth but on as long of a rein as possible but NOT a lose rein! I might have to hold my hands farther apart or not have my hands perfectly parallel -- it does not matter. Once the horse seems to consistently stretch into the contact I will move back to that neutral position. 
What I DON'T do is: I never cross my reins of the withers. I never let my arms go strait -- I always have my elbows bent. 
What I have found is that if my horse gets discombobulated when I move into a neutral position with my hands it is more often than not because I am not using enough inside leg; therefore, I will 'tap' the horse's side with my heal/spir. But I like to think of it as if I am pushing the horse's belly up (rounding/lifting the back). It's not just pressure from the sides it's more like pressure from the bottom of the belly pushing upward. 

I really hope that makes sense :?


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

I wouldn't do a heck of a lot of work towards 'long and low' at the moment. This is a pet hate of mine. Yes it is a good exercise, once the horse is established and actually able to carry himself in that position. But for a green horse and/or rider, long and low is incredibly difficult because of the amount of balance and strength it takes from the horse, and feel/timing from the rider. It is extremely easy to allow a horse to fall on the forehand when it is stretching long and low, which defeats the purpose. 

As others have said, you look very good for learning this without a trainer. You have a good, secure seat and reasonably quiet hands. You do ride quite stiffly, which may come from your hunter background. Try to breathe a little and relax in the saddle. At the moment you are bumping him in the back at the bottom of your rising, try to rise and fall a little more softly, thinking of more a forward and back 'sweeping' of the saddle than an up and down. 

Regarding Zeb's relaxation, yes he is quite tight. It is not a matter of throwing your reins away and making him stretch out on the forehand, but a matter of lateral suppleness and mental suppleness. Start some leg yield and turn on the forehand with him. Leg yield on a circle is a brilliant exercise to start developing connection to the outside rein, and suppleness around the inside leg, through the ribs and at the poll. This will then allow you to start moving towards shoulder fore, and eventually shoulder in which will increase the suppleness even more so. 

As Skyes said above, change the work up a bit. LOTS of transitions for this horse. Obviously he has quite a good canter, so use that as a reward as he seems to find it easy. Ride a bunch of trot-canter-trot transitions one after the other on a 20m circle then get off his back into 2-point and just allow him to canter under you for a lap of the arena to loosen up again. 
Trot-canter-trot transitions are my favourite transitions for warming up and loosening the back while engaging the hind legs. Well ridden trot-canters force the hind legs under and the horse HAS to use it's back into the transition. There are few exercises more simple and effective. 

Best of luck, you are doing very well.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

The main thing I see is you are not keeping a consistent constructive contact with your horse's mouth. I see slack reins, then contact then slack reins. Your hands are base wide too often and your arms are rigid. That is probably why your contact is so inconsistent. You need to relax your shoulder and elbow and learn to follow your horse's movement better. Raise your hands a smidge, keep your hands narrower, unlock the arms and you will be able to maintain a consistent contact. Then, you will b able to move your horse forward, into the bridle, and help keep him there.

All that said, you are doing very well for being self taught. I really like your horse and feel you two can go far, once this stumbling block can be fixed.


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## smguidotti (Jul 31, 2012)

Kayty said:


> I wouldn't do a heck of a lot of work towards 'long and low' at the moment. This is a pet hate of mine. Yes it is a good exercise, once the horse is established and actually able to carry himself in that position. But for a green horse and/or rider, long and low is incredibly difficult because of the amount of balance and strength it takes from the horse, and feel/timing from the rider. It is extremely easy to allow a horse to fall on the forehand when it is stretching long and low, which defeats the purpose . . .


I'm sorry you've had the experience of the horse falling on the forehand. I spent many, many days riding only at the walk for my horse to feel comfortable with the exercise before doing anything more challenging. It's not that difficult for the horse if people don't rush their training. 



Kayty said:


> Regarding Zeb's relaxation, yes he is quite tight. It is not a matter of throwing your reins away and making him stretch out on the forehand, but a matter of lateral suppleness and mental suppleness.


I don't know where you got the idea of "throwing the reins away" -- I never wrote that -- I keep consistent contact. 






Do you think that is throwing the reins away?


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## Weezilla (Aug 3, 2012)

I think you are doing very well, being on your own or not, OP. What a nice cute horse!

As stated by a few, I would want to see you work on being more connected, which will also help you ride through any shenanigans Zeb may throw your way. I also especially like leg-yielding (spiraling) on a circle exercises at walk, trot, and canter, which won't work at all if you don"t have an outside rein to control his shoulders. 

the 1st example I found on YT-its pretty good.





I would also be asking him to march on at walk EVERY time you walk. He goes into slug mode, and that is on the rider to expect and maintain a forward walk. Even if you are on the buckle, he should maintain a forward walk - keep your hips moving, and if he needs reminding, a quick bonk with your legs or light tap of the whip should send him on (be prepared for more of a reaction from him-hold the pommel if necessary to avoid catching him in the mouth  )

The same goes for down transitions from canter to trot and trot to walk. Ride FORWARD (hips moving) for at least a dozen strides before asking for walk, then ride forward into that walk. 

He almost tracks up most of the time at trot. Riding with a clear tempo in your head will help you with this. Smartphones offer free metronome apps these days, or you can get one from Amazon Amazon.com: BestDealUSA Black lightweight & portable LCD Digital Beat Tempo Mini Metronome: Musical Instruments


Overall, you two were a pleasure to watch  Keep up the good work.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

I've been lurking on this thread and absorbing some good info, thanks guys!


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## juniormylove (Aug 28, 2008)

Kayty said:


> I wouldn't do a heck of a lot of work towards 'long and low' at the moment. This is a pet hate of mine. Yes it is a good exercise, once the horse is established and actually able to carry himself in that position. But for a green horse and/or rider, long and low is incredibly difficult because of the amount of balance and strength it takes from the horse, and feel/timing from the rider. It is extremely easy to allow a horse to fall on the forehand when it is stretching long and low, which defeats the purpose.
> 
> As others have said, you look very good for learning this without a trainer. You have a good, secure seat and reasonably quiet hands. You do ride quite stiffly, which may come from your hunter background. Try to breathe a little and relax in the saddle. At the moment you are bumping him in the back at the bottom of your rising, try to rise and fall a little more softly, thinking of more a forward and back 'sweeping' of the saddle than an up and down.
> 
> ...


If we're being honest, I don't trust him enough at this point to even lengthen the reins to the point that will allow any major long and low. When the arena doors were open I did risk cantering a few circles on a loose rein at the end of good rides, but he's gotten much spookier with the doors closed (they're closed for winter). 

I definitely do need to relax, and I still haven't figured out how to post in a dressage saddle gracefully, haha. I'm so used to riding with short stirrups (even for jumpers) that I feel like I need to throw myself up to get out of the saddle enough.

When he's really forward I generally just get off his back and let him canter a little of his energy off, but I didn't think about using it as a reward. Thanks for the tips!



Allison Finch said:


> The main thing I see is you are not keeping a consistent constructive contact with your horse's mouth. I see slack reins, then contact then slack reins. Your hands are base wide too often and your arms are rigid. That is probably why your contact is so inconsistent. You need to relax your shoulder and elbow and learn to follow your horse's movement better. Raise your hands a smidge, keep your hands narrower, unlock the arms and you will be able to maintain a consistent contact. Then, you will b able to move your horse forward, into the bridle, and help keep him there.
> 
> All that said, you are doing very well for being self taught. I really like your horse and feel you two can go far, once this stumbling block can be fixed.


My hands are horrible  I've always struggled with keeping soft, consistent contact and never really had trainers who would focus on it, aside from yelling at me for dropping my hands too low. Any tips for getting my arms to relax? 



Weezilla said:


> I think you are doing very well, being on your own or not, OP. What a nice cute horse!
> 
> As stated by a few, I would want to see you work on being more connected, which will also help you ride through any shenanigans Zeb may throw your way. I also especially like leg-yielding (spiraling) on a circle exercises at walk, trot, and canter, which won't work at all if you don"t have an outside rein to control his shoulders.
> 
> ...


 Zeb is pretty cool.

 yeah I am BAD about letting him plod along at the walk. I've been working on it a little but we can definitely get better.
I haven't gotten around to carrying a whip yet (mostly because I have to search the entire barn to find one) but he was being really dumb about moving forward the other day so just out of habit, I smacked him behind my leg with my hand like I used to do on ponies and his reaction was priceless! He definitely moved forward after that 

I've been considering bringing speakers to the barn just so it's not so quiet - didn't even think about having music or a metronome when I rode! Will definitely have to try that!

Thanks for all the videos to look at, guys! It's definitely helpful for me to be able to visualize what you guys are saying, since I've not got a trainer to walk me through it while I'm riding.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

you are NOT bad!

and , don't try to make your stirrups too long, based on some image of dressage riders in FEI , upper level compettitons. Of course, they are longer than in hunter/jumper, but they should not be so long that you are ever fishing for them, and if the hrose is squirrelly, it's not crime to work with them a bit shorter for a bit.

For riders who are not "pros", there should be about a 90 degree angle, behind your knee. you can have the same 90 dergree angle and have a ridiculous chair seat. So, it's not JUST the angle , but where and how you put your lower leg nice and dropped under your hipn that gives you an effective stirrup positioning and length .


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Smguidotti, this is not simply my experience, I is equine biomechanics. It is very difficult for a green horse to work long and low CORRECTLY, meaning staying soft/swinging over the back, with hind legs engaged and continuing to carry weight rather than push, and to stay light through the forehand and maintaining a consistent contact with the riders hand.
BIG difference than just stretching the neck down even with a 'contact'. Horses naturally carry 60% of their weight on their forehand, when the head and neck are lowered, the horse will naturally increase this loading. In Dressage training, we want the weight to be over the hind legs. Very rarely will you see a young Dressage horse being ridden 'long and low'. Yes they frame is longer than that of a more mature horse, with the neck not as short as a horse in a higher degree of collection. But it's nose is not placed lower than its chest, usually withers, other than in a free/long rein walk when warming up/cooking down. And even in the walk, it is preferable to keep the head no lower than the wither for the stated reasons.

As a horse develops its carrying power behind, and is capable of working with a lifted back for increased periods, the frame is able to be lengthened towards the 'long and low' position for a few strides st a time until eventually the horse has the strength, balance and gymnastic ability to hold this for increased periods. The rider also plays a vital part, if their hands are not near perfect, and their seat beautifully balanced with an excellent timing of aids, you're not going to get a true long and low.

Yes, a lot of people will 'swear by' long and low and I agree it is an excellent exercise but on a somewhat green horse it is not ideal. 
If your aim is just to stretch the neck and relax a fairly highly strung horse, then allowing a long frame is good, but should not be confused with long and low in a true sense.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EvilHorseOfDoom (Jun 17, 2012)

My riding instructor taught me that a spooky horse generally had too little to keep his/her brain occupied so was able to start thinking about gremlins, or even make them up as an evasion.

With Brock, who was green at the time and very bronc-y, I used a one-rein-stop at walk and 8m circles at trot to distract him, make evading his gremlin-corner hard work then get up enough energy to drive him forward into the corner. If your horse is training Second Level, he probably needs a bit more to keep his mind on you and not on either imagining gremlins or pretending to imagine them in order to get out of work. A horse I rode that was training Medium (not with me, she was just my school horse!) needed more advanced stuff like leg-yielding and counter canter to keep her mind on the job and stop her from her antics. But to cut a long story short, if you're making them think about what you're asking, they don't have time to think about anything else!

I won't comment on your riding as my internet is too slow to watch the video at the moment, but my other tips would be to 1) plan your training session, allowing for enough variation to help you both improve; 2) never underestimate the value of improving the quality of the walk and any lateral work at this gait; 3) get out of the arena a few times a week if weather permits, to keep things fresh; and 4) let him have some fun in the arena at least once a week, so he doesn't see it purely as a place of work.


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## juniormylove (Aug 28, 2008)

tinyliny said:


> you are NOT bad!
> 
> and , don't try to make your stirrups too long, based on some image of dressage riders in FEI , upper level compettitons. Of course, they are longer than in hunter/jumper, but they should not be so long that you are ever fishing for them, and if the hrose is squirrelly, it's not crime to work with them a bit shorter for a bit.
> 
> For riders who are not "pros", there should be about a 90 degree angle, behind your knee. you can have the same 90 dergree angle and have a ridiculous chair seat. So, it's not JUST the angle , but where and how you put your lower leg nice and dropped under your hipn that gives you an effective stirrup positioning and length .


If my stirrups are any shorter, then I feel my knees running into the blocks at the front and that's not at all comfortable. It's probably because this saddle was to fit his owner, who is a good 5" shorter than me. I've got slenderman limbs really, it's kind of dumb. I've dropped them probably 2 wholes from where I started riding at, because every so often I'll mount up and just feel like wow, my stirrups are REALLY short. 




EvilHorseOfDoom said:


> My riding instructor taught me that a spooky horse generally had too little to keep his/her brain occupied so was able to start thinking about gremlins, or even make them up as an evasion.
> 
> With Brock, who was green at the time and very bronc-y, I used a one-rein-stop at walk and 8m circles at trot to distract him, make evading his gremlin-corner hard work then get up enough energy to drive him forward into the corner. If your horse is training Second Level, he probably needs a bit more to keep his mind on you and not on either imagining gremlins or pretending to imagine them in order to get out of work. A horse I rode that was training Medium (not with me, she was just my school horse!) needed more advanced stuff like leg-yielding and counter canter to keep her mind on the job and stop her from her antics. But to cut a long story short, if you're making them think about what you're asking, they don't have time to think about anything else!
> 
> I won't comment on your riding as my internet is too slow to watch the video at the moment, but my other tips would be to 1) plan your training session, allowing for enough variation to help you both improve; 2) never underestimate the value of improving the quality of the walk and any lateral work at this gait; 3) get out of the arena a few times a week if weather permits, to keep things fresh; and 4) let him have some fun in the arena at least once a week, so he doesn't see it purely as a place of work.


When he's spooking and being dumb, I definitely use more lateral work to keep his hind end busy enough to where he can't rear. I had a long talk with my old trainer (one of them, the one I have massive amounts of respect for) and he got mad when I told him I was just asking Zeb to stop when he was acting up. After lots of 'you can't fix stupid,' he got around to giving me advice which is basically what you guys were saying, to keep his mind busy...but for some reason, I didn't even think that that would be good advice for the entire ride and not just when he's being dumb.  I get so focused on making him go forward instead of balking that I forget there's more to riding.

I'm home until Sunday for Thanksgiving so Zeb gets a nice break (unless I want to drive 2 hours to go visit him) but when I get back on campus, I will definitely be trying these things! (and dragging a friend out in the cold to video us haha)


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