# Pangare does it always mean brown?



## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

I am wondering how many horses are labeled brown because they have pangare morkings? I have seen yet another smokey black horse labeled brown because of pangare markings horse tested smokey black Does the pangare mean the horse carries the At or what? I mean you would have to test it to be sure I have seen sorrels with the pangare too Any thoughts on it?


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Brown tends to be more seasonal than bay with pangare. As well as that, pangare seems to like the paler parts of the body to extend further, such as in this filly, spreading it right along her belly and under her chest.










As far as the "smoky black with pangare", well at this stage it is believed that pangare doesn't affect black hair, so it can't be that. Smoky can mimic brown a little, but it is unusual. I think this might be a different thing though that is causing the confusion. If the person reading the test didn't understand the complexity of agouti, and was looking at a Ccr Ee result, they could assume that the horse is black with cream. However, we know that agouti is on its own locus, and so we know that those tests could still be a brown or bay horse with cream.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Chiilaa said:


> Brown tends to be more seasonal than bay with pangare. As well as that, pangare seems to like the paler parts of the body to extend further, such as in this filly, spreading it right along her belly and under her chest.
> 
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> ...


This is true and we would only know this if the horse had been tested at PetDNA who does the brown testing really wish all the testing places would test for the brown


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

PetDNA is the place that developed the test. They haven't published a paper yet detailing the differences between A and At, and without that, all the other labs have to research it themselves.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Oh and this filly tested Ee aa Cr/N so does that give you any other clues?

This is the filly


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Chiilaa said:


> PetDNA is the place that developed the test. They haven't published a paper yet detailing the differences between A and At, and without that, all the other labs have to research it themselves.


 
I read that they say no funding for it I say smart buisness move all brown testing has to come to them LOL


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Just thought I would add - the other labs don't test for A, they test for a. So a horse that is homozygous for some form of agouti would test as _/_ according to their results, heterozygous as _/a and homozygous for non would be a/a. This means that they are in no way specifying which form of agouti is there, just that there is a lack of the recessive form.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

I would want to see her test for myself, and then I would want to retest her. After the retest came back the same, I would contact the various labs and see who is trying to work on pangare and send them some photos and her test results.

She makes me, a layman when it comes to genetics, wonder if pangare can act on dilute black, while it can't act on non-dilute black. Similar to how pearl needs cream to activate.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

The whole color genetic thing can really drive you nuts cant itit seems to make up its own rules as it goes along either way it still facinates me


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## OutOfTheLoop (Apr 1, 2012)

So if I am reading this right, only Brown horses can have pangare? I'm pretty sure my sorrel has it. Or am I reading wrong? ( excuse my stupidity)


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

OutOfTheLoop said:


> So if I am reading this right, only Brown horses can have pangare? I'm pretty sure my sorrel has it. Or am I reading wrong? ( excuse my stupidity)


Nope, your correct. We are not saying that only browns can have it, other colours do too.


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

This lab that test for brown - has their work been at least peer reviewed by ones who have no connection to them? If not and they are not willing to share the information - I question how legit the test is.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Cat said:


> This lab that test for brown - has their work been at least peer reviewed by ones who have no connection to them? If not and they are not willing to share the information - I question how legit the test is.


I think they are a very reptuable testing site. Why wouldnt they be I mean they did foot the bill to study and devolop the test and skills to get to the bottom of the brown stuff its no different than someone putting a patent on something the others havent contributed to their discovery so why should they share? After all it still is a buisness and buisness's ultimatly are out to make money.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

OutOfTheLoop said:


> So if I am reading this right, only Brown horses can have pangare? I'm pretty sure my sorrel has it. Or am I reading wrong? ( excuse my stupidity)


I wasnt suggesting that it just seems alot of smokey black horses are labeled and registered brown because they have it.


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> I think they are a very reptuable testing site. Why wouldnt they be I mean they did foot the bill to study and devolop the test and skills to get to the bottom of the brown stuff its no different than someone putting a patent on something the others havent contributed to their discovery so why should they share? After all it still is a buisness and buisness's ultimatly are out to make money.


Yes it is a business but also a science based business. There are a lot of scientific studies out there that reputable companies foot the bill for that fall apart under the scrutiny of peers. That is why peer reviews are conducted - to ensure the methodology and science is sound. If this company is not utilizing peer reviews and there is not a single lab other lab out there that can verify or negate the results - How do you as a customer know they are even really testing for it? 

Funny that you compare it to patents. Patents reveal all the information, it just prevents other companies from using it. So anyone wanting to know the method is valid can pull and read the patent even if they can't re-check the results with a different company.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> I wasnt suggesting that it just seems alot of smokey black horses are labeled and registered brown because they have it.


If you recall what I said before, you will be aware that black is not affected by pangare. So it is therefore impossible for these horses to be labelled as brown due to pangare, as their coat is not being changed by it. Pangare does not affect black hair, it's as simple as that.


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