# Liver or Just Chestnut?



## daystar88 (Jan 17, 2013)

Hi guys, I'm curious what color this foal will turn out to be. He's not mine, but belongs to my cousin. His sire is the same as Cowboy's, for those of you who don't know he's the buckskin tobiano pictured below. This is Jamison, AKA Jamie Boy, he was born July 29th I believe out of a liver chestnut mare.

The photos of Jamie with the little girl are the most recent I've seen of him.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I think just chestnut, and would be hesitant to even call that mare aliver chestnut, versus just dark chestnut


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

There is no genetic difference between chestnut and liver chestnut, liver chestnut is a very dark (sometimes so dark that it is visually black) chestnut. The amount/density of pigment in the hair follicles is the only physical difference, this is what gives the actual shade you see and chestnut horses range from being so light that they look palomino (but without a cream dilution) to looking like a black (but has the distinguished light coloration around the coronet bands -would be black on black horses)

For this foal, calling her a chestnut would be the most correct color term. There is little chance that as she grows older that she could darken enough to be considered a dark enough shade of chestnut to be called liver chestnut. Look at beef liver in the meat department of a grocery store, that is the color of dark red when a chestnut is liver chestnut ;-)


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## daystar88 (Jan 17, 2013)

SunnyDraco said:


> There is no genetic difference between chestnut and liver chestnut, liver chestnut is a very dark (sometimes so dark that it is visually black) chestnut. The amount/density of pigment in the hair follicles is the only physical difference, this is what gives the actual shade you see and chestnut horses range from being so light that they look palomino (but without a cream dilution) to looking like a black (but has the distinguished light coloration around the coronet bands -would be black on black horses)
> 
> For this foal, calling her a chestnut would be the most correct color term. There is little chance that as she grows older that she could darken enough to be considered a dark enough shade of chestnut to be called liver chestnut. Look at beef liver in the meat department of a grocery store, that is the color of dark red when a chestnut is liver chestnut ;-)


Thank you so much! I was just curious since he was getting darker around the eyes and muzzle.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

daystar88 said:


> Thank you so much! I was just curious since he was getting darker around the eyes and muzzle.


Many palominos get darker around the muzzle and eyes in foal coats/first winter coat but come the summer of their yearling year they turn a brilliant golden color. Their was a forum member that had a gorgeous palomino filly that did this some years ago and it was well documented with updates on her growth and color changes. It is not unusual for any chestnut and chestnut based color to go darker as a foal/first winter and then lighten up to their adult shade. This particular filly is a nice bright red chestnut in these pictures and is most likely to be a bright red when the winter coat is shed


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Very common for foals to get darker around the eyes, where they first shed that foal coat
I could post pictures of numerous foals I raised, showing that feature
Smilie and her full sisters show that range of chestnut expression.
Her oldest full sister was a flaxen color, Smilie and two full sisters are the usual shade of chestnut, while another full ssiter is liver chestnut


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## daystar88 (Jan 17, 2013)

SunnyDraco said:


> Many palominos get darker around the muzzle and eyes in foal coats/first winter coat but come the summer of their yearling year they turn a brilliant golden color. Their was a forum member that had a gorgeous palomino filly that did this some years ago and it was well documented with updates on her growth and color changes. It is not unusual for any chestnut and chestnut based color to go darker as a foal/first winter and then lighten up to their adult shade. This particular filly is a nice bright red chestnut in these pictures and is most likely to be a bright red when the winter coat is shed


I knew palominos could be born real red, but I didn't know they could be born this red! Thank you!!

This is actually a colt haha! But yes, he does have a nice bright red coat.


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## daystar88 (Jan 17, 2013)

Smilie said:


> Very common for foals to get darker around the eyes, where they first shed that foal coat
> I could post pictures of numerous foals I raised, showing that feature
> Smilie and her full sisters show that range of chestnut expression.
> Her oldest full sister was a flaxen color, Smilie and two full sisters are the usual shade of chestnut, while another full ssiter is liver chestnut


That's what I thought since it happened to Cowboy. I was just curious. Thank you so much!!


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

daystar88 said:


> I knew palominos could be born real red, but I didn't know they could be born this red! Thank you!!
> 
> This is actually a colt haha! But yes, he does have a nice bright red coat.


No, palominos aren't born this red. I was using palominos as an example of foal coat color changes that fool you into thinking a red based horse is going to be darker as an adult when it is only a temporary change. The forum member I mentioned with a beautiful palomino filly had a very light palomino newborn, who darkened up to a very dark sooty color for the first winter coat which made her owner wonder about her adult color. Spring came and the summer coat revealed a very bright golden summer coat.


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## daystar88 (Jan 17, 2013)

SunnyDraco said:


> No, palominos aren't born this red. I was using palominos as an example of foal coat color changes that fool you into thinking a red based horse is going to be darker as an adult when it is only a temporary change. The forum member I mentioned with a beautiful palomino filly had a very light palomino newborn, who darkened up to a very dark sooty color for the first winter coat which made her owner wonder about her adult color. Spring came and the summer coat revealed a very bright golden summer coat.


Ahh, okay. Someone did say elsewhere that he could easily be a palomino but it didn't make any sense to me cause he looked too dark. 

I'm learning so much about horse colors changing as they get older which is really helping! Back in 2014 we had a bright bay tobiano born, when he turned 2 he was a dark bay tobiano. With Cowboy he was born a bright red, now he's a palomino. Thank you so much!


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

daystar88 said:


> Ahh, okay. Someone did say elsewhere that he could easily be a palomino but it didn't make any sense to me cause he looked too dark.
> 
> I'm learning so much about horse colors changing as they get older which is really helping! Back in 2014 we had a bright bay tobiano born, when he turned 2 he was a dark bay tobiano. With Cowboy he was born a bright red, now he's a palomino. Thank you so much!


Found the thread I had mentioned, it will give you a really good idea of how wild coat colors can go as foals go through sheds. Page 1-6 show from the beginning of going dark until she hits her darkest point which looks like a taffy/dark sooty palomino/silver dapple at that point. After that, her coat turns golden again. Some pictures through the middle and end of the thread are broken links now as several years have passed since them but enough of the pictures are still in good working order to still view right now and see how much she changed as a foal going from light, to dark and then to golden

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-colors-genetics/my-palomino-filly-turning-black-127771/


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## daystar88 (Jan 17, 2013)

SunnyDraco said:


> Found the thread I had mentioned, it will give you a really good idea of how wild coat colors can go as foals go through sheds. Page 1-6 show from the beginning of going dark until she hits her darkest point which looks like a taffy/dark sooty palomino/silver dapple at that point. After that, her coat turns golden again. Some pictures through the middle and end of the thread are broken links now as several years have passed since them but enough of the pictures are still in good working order to still view right now and see how much she changed as a foal going from light, to dark and then to golden
> 
> http://www.horseforum.com/horse-colors-genetics/my-palomino-filly-turning-black-127771/


That is one GORGEOUS filly!!


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