# Boarding barns: Big vs. private



## Katyusha (Jan 24, 2012)

Hi, I would like to get a consensus.

I currently board my horse at a private farm a half mile down the road from where I live but am considering moving him. The ride out and the amenities are pretty great and it's so close to my house. But the property owner is driving me a bit mad. She's a wonderful lady and I have a lot of respect for her, but she tells me what to do too much with my own horse. If there's a day I don't ride, she emails me and asks why I didn't ride. I can't have that.

There is a another barn I'm considering that is actually a boarding/training stable. It looks nice, but I have concerns that come along with boarding at smaller privately owned farm. The farm I'm at now, I don't have to worry about other people using my tack; I can bring my dog with me to the property; and as I've mentioned before, it's a half mile from my house.

Can anyone name off pros and cons for either? I really need to decide whether to try and find another privately owned farm or an actual boarding stable.

Any thoughts are appreciated!


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## Ink (Sep 25, 2009)

Hmm, not sure exactly what you mean by privately owned farm. 

For instance, where I'm at now I would consider a relatively small, privately owned stable. There are about 12 horses on the property, 4 of which belong to the BO. But only two other boarders come out to ride on a regular basis (at least that I've run into). There are pro's and con's to this place just like any other. I like that the barn is usually quiet and I often have the arena to myself so there's nothing to distract me or my horse. On the flip side, I also don't have anyone to ride with when I do want company. We don't have a trainer on at the barn. Although we're welcome to bring one in for lessons etc., there's no one there on a daily basis to ask questions and bounce ideas off of. 

As far as worrying about people using your tack, I wouldn't. Even at the bigger barns I've been at, it's a pretty strict don't use without the owner's permission policy. At the bigger barns too they usually have tack that gets used in lessons that people will go to to borrow from first. 

It really all depends on what your goals are. For now, I'm just goofing off and working out the kinks on my green horse. For that purpose, where I'm at works just fine for me and at half the price it would cost me to board at one of the larger stables in town. If I wanted to get more serious about showing, I would probably move somewhere where I had more convenient access to a trainer. I don't know if that helps at all, but good luck finding a place that suits you.


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## Katyusha (Jan 24, 2012)

Ink said:


> Hmm, not sure exactly what you mean by privately owned farm.
> 
> For instance, where I'm at now I would consider a relatively small, privately owned stable. There are about 12 horses on the property, 4 of which belong to the BO. But only two other boarders come out to ride on a regular basis (at least that I've run into). There are pro's and con's to this place just like any other. I like that the barn is usually quiet and I often have the arena to myself so there's nothing to distract me or my horse. On the flip side, I also don't have anyone to ride with when I do want company. We don't have a trainer on at the barn. Although we're welcome to bring one in for lessons etc., there's no one there on a daily basis to ask questions and bounce ideas off of.
> 
> ...


By privately owned farm, I mean it's a private farm? I'm sorry! I'm not sure how else to explain it! Someone who lives in a house on a farm, lets me board there.

I'm not worried about a trainer, he doesn't need one at this point; I guess I'm just frustrated with where I'm at now, because she gives way too much input on how things should be with my horse - things that don't involve health or training or anything like that...just aesthetic things, or things that dont really matter.

But I really appreciate your input!


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## Ink (Sep 25, 2009)

I think I get what you mean. I was just thinking that could mean a couple different things.

1. A friend or acquaintance that happens to own a small farm and lets you keep your horse there, but has no other boarders

or 

2. A smallish farm where there are a few boarders, but run by the family that owns and/or lives there, but not really operated as a business or sole source of income.


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## Katyusha (Jan 24, 2012)

Ink said:


> I think I get what you mean. I was just thinking that could mean a couple different things.
> 
> 1. A friend or acquaintance that happens to own a small farm and lets you keep your horse there, but has no other boarders
> 
> ...


Those are probably both accurate! It's not operated as a business, and I'm the only boarder who doesn't live on here property. But she has a guest house and a carriage house that have tenants, and her tenants board there.


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

that 1/2 mile thing is pretty handy. Grow some thicker skin and quit worrying about the comments. The ole sticks and stones things. Just learn to smile and nod. You are under no obligation to answer your emails or explain yourself. Just simply dont answer.


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## Katyusha (Jan 24, 2012)

Joe4d said:


> that 1/2 mile thing is pretty handy. Grow some thicker skin and quit worrying about the comments. The ole sticks and stones things. Just learn to smile and nod. You are under no obligation to answer your emails or explain yourself. Just simply dont answer.



Joe, you're absolutely right. My husband always tells me, "just humor her."

Alright, there were a few other things I didn't mention; My horse's tail was banged with out asking me and he was vaccinated with out telling me. Now, I know he needs his shots, but is it normal for people just to go do things to your horse without telling you or asking you?


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## xxdanioo (Jan 17, 2012)

Katyusha said:


> Joe, you're absolutely right. My husband always tells me, "just humor her."
> 
> Alright, there were a few other things I didn't mention; My horse's tail was banged with out asking me and he was vaccinated with out telling me. Now, I know he needs his shots, but is it normal for people just to go do things to your horse without telling you or asking you?


 
I would be ****ed if someone cut my horses tail, or gave him meds without my consent.


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## Katyusha (Jan 24, 2012)

xxdanioo said:


> I would be ****ed if someone cut my horses tail, or gave him meds without my consent.


I was quite ****ed - and those reasons, more than the other reasons, are why I'm considering moving. I just can't wrap my head around how anyone would think that's ok.


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## Ink (Sep 25, 2009)

Katyusha said:


> Alright, there were a few other things I didn't mention; My horse's tail was banged with out asking me and he was vaccinated with out telling me. Now, I know he needs his shots, but is it normal for people just to go do things to your horse without telling you or asking you?



Yeah, that's way overstepping the boundaries. I would be very upset if that happened to me. All I can say, is maybe try to talk to them first. Let them know what your concerns are and remind them that it's _your _horse and you need to be notified and give your consent before they do anything like that with your horse. If you talk it out and can't reach an agreement or inconsiderate behavior persists, then definitely take your horse elsewhere.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Katyusha said:


> I was quite ****ed - and those reasons, more than the other reasons, are why I'm considering moving. I just can't wrap my head around how anyone would think that's ok.


That is TOTALLY different than her emailing you. I would definitely be looking, and in that area-there are LOTS of nice farms. To me the biggest difference there is what you want to do and how deep your pockets are. I like an indoor, which there are not too many of around there. I also ride western now, so that makes it nearly impossible! lol (I live about 20 miles from Middleburg, if that) My guy is in MD now, because they have what I want for him.

I board at a small private barn during the summer when I live out of state. Sounds like about the same as what you have there. Only the BO is also my friend. EVen so-NOTHING is done with my boys that I do not OK. She always asks about shots, farrier, fecals, EVERYTHING. Nothing should be taken for granted. I have never been in a barn where they would bang a tail without asking, no less give vaccinations!

I somewhat like the anonymity of a large barn, and I tend to ride during the day when the teens are not around......but the small private is nice too....

Good luck-if you ride an English discipline you should be able to find something fairly close.:wink:


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## Cacowgirl (Feb 19, 2011)

I almost get the vaccination thing-so all the horses are done together, but youshould have been given a heads-up prior to the date. But, anyone messng w/your horses mane or tail in a way like that is un-acceptable. I would ask why it was done & let thm know your feelings about that. In a NICE way. Being so close to your home IS a big plus.


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## yadlim (Feb 2, 2012)

I have been at some big barns of 100+ horses and as small as three boarded horses. 

A few things I have noticed over the years... unless each boarder has thier own locked tack locker, stuff gets 'borrowed' and usually returned, but not always. This is true for any size place. 

The personal care of the horses usually tends to be best at the ten to fifiteen boarded horses level. Less than that and the stable owners are not making enough money to make it. More than that and the don't have time to take notice of each horse. 

At big barns, if you don't ride the specific main disapline, you are an outcast. At a small barn, if you don't ride the specific main disapline, you get looked at wierd and may have to answer a LOT of questions. 

I have gotten phone calls before on why I was not out in a couple days from both the smal and the huge barns. I find that the smaller barns are better about contacting if there is a problem with your horse - ie injury.

I have been told that my horses were not welcome at a large barn because they did not want my driving horse - only Western riders. I have never had a small barn have a problem with my horse cart - other than I wind up giving a log of lessons!

I find that peopel in larger barns tend to be a bit more stressed out than at the smaller barns.

Then, from left field, concerning your specific situation... If someone touched my horses without my specific permission, I would be gone the day I found out. Even if I had to ride them out, we woudl not stay there. 

I actually met a lady who did what I consider an 'emergency' move. She had kept her three horses at the same stable for several years where they had recieved excellent care. One weekend she goes out to ride and only two of her three horses are on the porperty. After a frantic weekend of trying to locate the missing horse, including police reports, it turns out the stable owner had borrowed him. 

The stable owner went on a large four day trip and they were one horse short for the number of people they were taking... so without asking or even informing the horse owner, had the horse shod and took him for the four day camping trip.... I can't even imagine.

The very day they got back, the three horses were moved to the stable I was at.


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## crimsonsky (Feb 18, 2011)

wow that's crazy! although... i have been to both large and small barns (business type and backyard private type) that have or will do all of the things mentioned here. it's all a matter of being clear with what you need/want, them being clear with their needs/wants/expectations and both parties coming to a mutually beneficial arrangement.


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## Katyusha (Jan 24, 2012)

yadlim said:


> I have been at some big barns of 100+ horses and as small as three boarded horses.
> 
> A few things I have noticed over the years... unless each boarder has thier own locked tack locker, stuff gets 'borrowed' and usually returned, but not always. This is true for any size place.
> 
> ...


OMG...That is completely unacceptable!!

Well, I guess I have a lot to think about. Thanks for laying it out! There's a few things for me to consider. Like someone mentioned, being so close to my house is huge, but I think I just have to speak up and tell her what is and isn't ok.


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## Jacksmama (Jan 27, 2010)

I have an extremely similar BO, very opinionated and vocal lol. I have dealt with it for 6 years because I am able to work off a portion of the board by helping with her other horses and I get the experience of riding a lot of different horses. She has taught me a huge amount about training as well. But it still remains that she is annoying! lol. I would, in no uncertain terms, lay it out for her if she EVER did something to my horse without letting me know. As mentioned above it makes sense to have everyones shots at the same time, but I **** well better know about it! The tail though, that would really PI** me off, even though it's a small thing. Just tell her, flat out, do NOT do another thing to my horse without my knowledge or I will pick up and take him/her out of here so quick I'll be gone before the horse hair settles. I like the convenience and the facilities, I don't really want to leave, but this is NON negotiable.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Katyusha said:


> OMG...That is completely unacceptable!!
> 
> Well, I guess I have a lot to think about. Thanks for laying it out! There's a few things for me to consider. Like someone mentioned, being so close to my house is huge, but I think I just have to speak up and tell her what is and isn't ok.


There are so many pros and cons to both situations. We run 30-40 horses at our facility. Large enough to not feel as though you are under a microscope, yet small enough to not be the 3rd Suzy.

Care at a small barn can be less than care at a facility with 100 horses. Depends on management. It's up to each person to ask when they interview and keep their horse where they feel most comfortable. Have a list of questions and ask. Maybe check out the larger barn and see if you like it before you decide to write it off.


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## Katyusha (Jan 24, 2012)

Jacksmama said:


> I have an extremely similar BO, very opinionated and vocal lol. I have dealt with it for 6 years because I am able to work off a portion of the board by helping with her other horses and I get the experience of riding a lot of different horses. She has taught me a huge amount about training as well. But it still remains that she is annoying! lol. I would, in no uncertain terms, lay it out for her if she EVER did something to my horse without letting me know. As mentioned above it makes sense to have everyones shots at the same time, but I **** well better know about it! The tail though, that would really PI** me off, even though it's a small thing. Just tell her, flat out, do NOT do another thing to my horse without my knowledge or I will pick up and take him/her out of here so quick I'll be gone before the horse hair settles. I like the convenience and the facilities, I don't really want to leave, but this is NON negotiable.


I think the real issue is that I don't want to burn any bridges. This lady isn't boarding for income; she's a neighbor down the road who just lets me board my horse there at her house. But she has foxhunt ride out, an arena with jumps and a small xc course, so it's a pretty sweet set up. She's really good friends with with two of my friends who live on her property and she's also friends with my landlord. Either way, there are some things that are unacceptable. Touching/doing things to my horse with out letting me know is out of the question. I can humor her on the other stuff. But I am going to go look at some other bigger barns (if they call me back!) just to see what they have.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

Just curious if you ever spoke with her about tail banging incident? Or the vaccinations? If you haven't, it's very possible the problems could very easily be solved with a quick conversation with the BO. IMO your set up sounds pretty sweet and to be honest there'd have to be a lot more issues than you describe to convince me to move.


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## Katyusha (Jan 24, 2012)

MN Tigerstripes said:


> Just curious if you ever spoke with her about tail banging incident? Or the vaccinations? If you haven't, it's very possible the problems could very easily be solved with a quick conversation with the BO. IMO your set up sounds pretty sweet and to be honest there'd have to be a lot more issues than you describe to convince me to move.


No, I haven't 

I dread confrontation - I really do. But I know this has to be done.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

You really need to talk to her then, this could be a really easy fix. I don't know if you've boarded elsewhere before, but I've read/heard plenty of horror stories from other boarders about what they endure to find a good barn. 

Don't think about it like a confrontation. It's a discussion and those aren't so bad.


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## Katyusha (Jan 24, 2012)

MN Tigerstripes said:


> You really need to talk to her then, this could be a really easy fix. I don't know if you've boarded elsewhere before, but I've read/heard plenty of horror stories from other boarders about what they endure to find a good barn.
> 
> Don't think about it like a confrontation. It's a discussion and those aren't so bad.



Oh alright. Thanks for putting it into perspective for me


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

No problem! It's a lot easier to see from the outside sometimes  Good luck!


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## Arksly (Mar 13, 2010)

I've boarded at mostly larger barns in the past. 

Two of them being show barns. One had about 70 horses and the other had about 50. They both had amazing facilities. The first one, however, had an owner that would be your friend one second and then stab you in the back the next. Needless to say we left there. The next one was absolutely wonderful and I had no problems with it. All of the horses were well cared for and the people were very nice.

The last barn I was at had over 100 horses but the facilities weren't nice or suited for that many horses. The owners were just in it for the money (I don't know why they chose horses then). The majority of the horses were unthrifty and often most injuries/illnesses would go unnoticed until the owner took the horse out. The people were very nice though.

The place I'm at now would likely be considered semi-private. There's about 25 horses, ten of them being the owner's. They are all show horses and all of the horses are taken care of wonderfully, they have nice facilities, and all the people are nice. 

As for them taking out your horse without your consent, I would definitely have a serious talk with the owner. It'd be interesting to hear why they did that. Good luck!


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## MajorSealstheDeal (Jan 4, 2011)

Definitely talk to your BO about the vaccinations.

I've boarded at both public and private barns. Where I am at now, because I am quite close with the owner, my horse gets thrown in on things like vaccinations with the rest of the herd. (Have been at a private barn for almost six years now).

It is quite possible she thought she was doing you a favour, regarding vaccinations.


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## AQHSam (Nov 23, 2011)

Katyusha said:


> Joe, you're absolutely right. My husband always tells me, "just humor her."
> 
> Alright, there were a few other things I didn't mention; My horse's tail was banged with out asking me and he was vaccinated with out telling me. Now, I know he needs his shots, but is it normal for people just to go do things to your horse without telling you or asking you?


It depends on your original agreement. I keep my horse in a similar situation. The property owner is a horse trainer/seller but it is not his sole income. He is not a boarding facility. The only horses are his private horses, the horses he is working with and training, and those that are for resale. It is myself and 1 other person who keeps a horse on a monthly basis for board.

The expectation in my board is that he will provide wormings and ticking. He also keeps an eye on my horse for overall health, but now that Sam is in the pasture, it is a distant eye. He will also provide shots, which I reimburse him for and if the farrier is coming out and it is time will include Sam in the appointment. I pay for shoes. 

He does not have to tell me first if he is going to vaccinate, worm, or detick Sam. I told him in the beginning to just include my horse in his routine and let me know the expenses. I showed up on Sunday and he deticked all the horses and Sam was included. I am at the barn often enough that I am aware when the farrier is coming and will identify if I want Sam included or not.

On one hand, it is good that you have someone who is paying attention to your horse in your absence. She may be very worried that you will think she is not doing her job so she comes over the top.

Does she expect you to self-care for your horse? That may be the other reason she is contacting you. She may be happy to board your horse, but if you are absent she feels that the horse is being neglected and uncared for.


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## Skipsfirstspike (Mar 22, 2010)

I agree with MNTigerstripes. Have a casual talk with the BO. I wouldnt be surprised if she thought she was just helping out. Sounds like a good facility and it is nice and close, you have friends there, I would think very carefully before leaving it.-
You can just say "Thanks for arranging the vaccinations, can you let me know ahead of time next time? I like to be there." Also, "Thanks for cleaning up my horse's tail. I think I am going to try to grow it out as long as possible now."-
Give her a chance.


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## AQHSam (Nov 23, 2011)

what is tail banging? I thought it was a typo... it sounds like a really big deal.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

Trimming a Horse's Tail- How to Bang a Horse's Tail - Banging a Tail


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## AQHSam (Nov 23, 2011)

Thanks MN Tigerstripes. I was picturing banging as in smashing!

Well, I learned two things today. 

1) Google is your friend even when you think it is a typo.

2) Horses can have bangs too.

Not sure what your breed of horse is, OP. I completely understand why you are upset with the land owner. (How much did she take off??) That's the nice thing about boarding from a guy I guess. He barely grooms his horse's saddle areas, no worries about him playing barber on my horse's tail!

Actually, he is not that bad about grooming his horses. And, I did ask him to shave the inside of Sam's ears when he removed some nasty tick scabs and put ointment in them. And he can put a really nice face trim on a horse. But, he is less inclined to take the initiative of someone else's horse without a request first.


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## Katyusha (Jan 24, 2012)

AQHSam said:


> It depends on your original agreement. I keep my horse in a similar situation. The property owner is a horse trainer/seller but it is not his sole income. He is not a boarding facility. The only horses are his private horses, the horses he is working with and training, and those that are for resale. It is myself and 1 other person who keeps a horse on a monthly basis for board.
> 
> The expectation in my board is that he will provide wormings and ticking. He also keeps an eye on my horse for overall health, but now that Sam is in the pasture, it is a distant eye. He will also provide shots, which I reimburse him for and if the farrier is coming out and it is time will include Sam in the appointment. I pay for shoes.
> 
> ...


There was no agreement, per se. This was very informal; like I said before she's a neighbor down the road that let's me board on her amazing property.
But I don't think that's the point. Either way, I don't think anyone should touch anyone else's animals without a heads up, at best. I understand he needs to be vaccinated, that's not the issue. But I think it's akin to vaccinating someone else's child that you're babysitting.

To answer your question, I pay for full board. Also, like I mentioned earlier, I live a half mile down the road from her. I never go for more than two days without seeing my horse, so if I don't ride for three days, that's not neglecting him.


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## Katyusha (Jan 24, 2012)

AQHSam said:


> Thanks MN Tigerstripes. I was picturing banging as in smashing!
> 
> Well, I learned two things today.
> 
> ...


 Don't get me wrong, I think the look of banged tails looks nice! I just don't think it's necessary at this point in time for him. She also suggested I pull his mane; and that's part of my issue - the things she rails on me for are entirely subjective and aesthetic things. If I don't want to pull my horse's mane or bang his tail, I'm not going to. He's my horse.

But, at the end of the day, I'll probably stay there. I'm going to look at a bigger barn this weekend, but if it seems like too much of a pain in the butt, I'll just keep him where he is 

Thank you everybody, for your thoughts!!


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

Gotta love the strange ideas people have about how your horse should look. :lol:

My friends all think I'm nuts for banging Soda's tail, but it grows so fast and he ends up ripping it out otherwise. One of them thinks I'm nuts for putting shoes on him, the other thinks I'm nuts for waiting so long to do it. One thinks I need to move him to a bosal, the other thinks I should try a twisted snaffle to get his attention when we're out on the trail. Then there's the groundwork argument and the argument about getting his head down vs getting him to collect. 

You probably get the drift right? Horse people are all at least partially crazy and mostly convinced that their way is always the right way. I've learned a lot through the years by just letting crap roll off of my back and asking questions when I don't necessarily agree with what someone does with their horse. 

If you aren't showing I think it's unnecessary to pull your horse's mane, I can see the tail if he's pulling it out or getting it full of burrs. Sounds like your BO is one of those people who thinks every horse should be pretty close to perfectly turned out constantly. Nothing really wrong with that, just different. I'm sure she'll be ok with you wanting to leave your horse's mane/tail alone as long as you tell her, she might think you're crazy though!


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

MN Tigerstripes said:


> Horse people are all at least partially crazy and mostly convinced that their way is always the right way.
> 
> Sounds like your BO is one of those people who thinks every horse should be pretty close to perfectly turned out constantly. Nothing really wrong with that, just different.


Crazy - horse people, mothers of small children, co-workers . . .

I'm guessing the BO simply has a lot of time on her hands and thinks she is helping. Talk to her. Communication is a two way street.


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## AQHSam (Nov 23, 2011)

MN Tigerstripes said:


> Gotta love the strange ideas people have about how your horse should look. :lol:
> 
> My friends all think I'm nuts for banging Soda's tail, but it grows so fast and he ends up ripping it out otherwise. One of them thinks I'm nuts for putting shoes on him, the other thinks I'm nuts for waiting so long to do it. One thinks I need to move him to a bosal, the other thinks I should try a twisted snaffle to get his attention when we're out on the trail. Then there's the groundwork argument and the argument about getting his head down vs getting him to collect.
> 
> ...


My barn owner who I bought my horse from said, "Put 10 horse people in a room and you will receive ten completely different tips on how to care for your horse."

He is pretty good about prefacing all opinionated direction with, "this is how I choose to do it, but others may disagree."


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

did you pay for the vaccinations ? I wouldnt if it wasnt part of the lease or I didnt agree ahead of time. Just say thinks for getting my horse vaccinated but in the future you will be handling your own horses medical and grooming needs.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

There are a couple of things here where I feel you should ask the BO about them. For instance, when she banged his tail, was it just a wild hair or did he catch it and pull out a big wad and she was trying to make it look nice again? If it was a wild hair I'd come unglued and tell her that no way, not ever was she to touch my horse's tail again. I'd also have it braided and up to protect it, but us Arabian people are kind of crazy that way anyhow. If I didn't want to pull the mane, I'd just tell her that I prefer the mane long and would not be pulling it. She's suggesting what she thinks is great for her ideal horse, that's not your ideal horse, so just tell her you don't like that and it's not what you want. 

As for the vaccinations, are you overdue? Here at my place you'd be welcome to do the vaccinations on your own, but I have specific dates by when they have to be done or I'll do them. When a new horse comes in (rare, I'm full), I make sure they are UTD on everything before they come in, then I let the boarder know that by 3/15 of every year, they have to be boostered. I send out an e-mail on 2/15 reminding everyone they have 30 days to get their horses vaccinated and to give me proof, either the vet bill or the stickers off their vaccine bottles and I mark each horse on the white board in the feed barn as to what they got and when they got it. Anyone who is blank on 3/15, I have the vet out to do all boarder horses that haven't been attended to, and I do my own. She may not be that organized, but I suspect that's what she's thinking. 

Unless directed otherwise in writing, I do every horse on the place when the farrier is out and he direct bills the clients. I would never do shoes or ride a boarder's horse without previous direction and I certainly wouldn't take off on a camping/trail trip with one! That's waaaay over the mark. I know this doesn't apply to this case but that shocked me. 

As for the riding thing, it's up to you whether you EVER go out and see your horse, but it sounds like she likes you and likes to see you out there. But, if her e-mails bother you, block her.

Here, you can have a locking tack truck or bring in your own locker and put it in the feed barn if you like, but if it ain't locked, no guarantees on someone borrowing it. I try to furnish basics, like shampoo, fly spray, spare brushes and combs and hoof picks but not everyone is good about staying out of other folks stuff.


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## AQHSam (Nov 23, 2011)

I liked your comments Dreamcatcher.

OP, are you a new horse owner? It really does sound as if she is trying to help. Some people are more helpful than others. I had a neighbor that was very helpful. Sometimes.... it required extra effort on my part to fix what she thought she was helping with.

Good luck. Let us know how the convo with her turns out.


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