# What possible colors for a foal?



## kenda (Oct 10, 2008)

Without knowing the horse's actual genetics your possibilities are:

Base colour (if mom is black or chestnut, the possibilities are the same as we don't know if she or the stud is homozygous for either black or bay):
Black, Bay(and maybe brown), Chestnut, Smoky Black, Buckskin(and maybe smoky brown), Palomino

Top coat: 50-100% tobiano (depending on if mom is homozygous)
Can't comment on Appaloosa, don't know enough about it
I don't know all there is to know about frame overo and how it expresses but I would be concerned about both of these horses possibly having it and would have them tested.


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## horseaddicted (Jul 2, 2014)

kenda said:


> Without knowing the horse's actual genetics your possibilities are:
> 
> Base colour (if mom is black or chestnut, the possibilities are the same as we don't know if she or the stud is homozygous for either black or bay):
> Black, Bay(and maybe brown), Chestnut, Smoky Black, Buckskin(and maybe smoky brown), Palomino
> ...


Hmm.. I hadn't thought about that. She has had one foal and it was fine.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

horseaddicted said:


> Hmm.. I hadn't thought about that. She has had one foal and it was fine.


Depends on what she was bred to before. There's a 25% chance of having a lethal white foal out of two parents that carry frame.

It's a $25 test through UC Davis that is worth your peace of mind. It's the third test down and is considered an "individual coat color" test, so is $25: https://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/horse.php


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

OLWS doesn't show up in every pregnancy. Both parents have to be carriers and then there is a 25% chance of having a foal that dies within 72 hours of birth. If you're thinking of breeding and want to know your colour possibilities, you could send away for the test for OLWS and have her colour tested as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kodachrome310 (Jun 29, 2014)

Lethal white syndrome is only a concern if you are breeding two Overos, two toveros or an overo and a tovero. Lethal white is when a foal gets two copies (homozygous) of the Overo gene. Im going to assume that your mare is heterozygous for the tobiano pattern because of the apparent appy/paint cross breeding, it would be pretty tricky to get a homozygous. Paint color patterns are considered dominant genes and will show up in both heterozygous and homozygous foals. If the mare is a tobiano (as she appears to be) and the stud is from solid QH stock there is no chance of lethal white at all and you would have a 50% chance at tobiano. If the stud is Overo there is still no risk, and you will have equal 25% chance of tovero, tobiano, Overo and soild color patterns. If the stud is tobiano heterozygous you get 25% homozygous tobiano, 50% heterozygous tobiano and 25% solid. If the stud is homozygous tobiano you will get a tobiano foal no matter what 50/50 heterozygous vs homozygous. 

I am not sure how the appaloosa coloration genes work but I'd give it about a 25% chance of showing up in the foal.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

Kodachrome310 said:


> Lethal white syndrome is only a concern if you are breeding two Overos, two toveros or an overo and a tovero. Lethal white is when a foal gets two copies (homozygous) of the Overo gene. Im going to assume that your mare is heterozygous for the tobiano pattern because of the apparent appy/paint cross breeding, it would be pretty tricky to get a homozygous. Paint color patterns are considered dominant genes and will show up in both heterozygous and homozygous foals. If the mare is a tobiano (as she appears to be) and the stud is from solid QH stock there is no chance of lethal white at all and you would have a 50% chance at tobiano. If the stud is Overo there is still no risk, and you will have equal 25% chance of tovero, tobiano, Overo and soild color patterns. If the stud is tobiano heterozygous you get 25% homozygous tobiano, 50% heterozygous tobiano and 25% solid. If the stud is homozygous tobiano you will get a tobiano foal no matter what 50/50 heterozygous vs homozygous.
> 
> I am not sure how the appaloosa coloration genes work but I'd give it about a 25% chance of showing up in the foal.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


While you are correct in some aspects, I think it's important to remember that OLWS shows up in tobianos and solid horses too, but may not necessarily show up as the classic frame overo colouration. There are many horses on just this forum alone (and hopefully some will have pictures to offer) that are completely solid, or appear to be strictly tobiano that have tested as positive carriers for OLWS. Given this mare's appaloosa colouring, I would rule nothing out as the frame overo gene's visual presentation could be significantly muted by other genes.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

You can never truly know whether a horse is carrying frame without testing as it doesn't always show up as the traditional coloration.

These horses are tested frame carriers (stole the pix from a post that Chiilaa made)


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

lol. are you sure she is not preggers now ? she has a bit of a belly  . I would get her tested , to go through all the waiting to have a dead foal would be heart breaking, and costly. 
I have lost 2 foals and wont have any more preg mares.


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## Bridgertrot (Dec 2, 2011)

Just reiterating the previous posters to PLEASE get her tested for Frame. $25 is a cheap investment to prevent future heartbreak.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Kodachrome310 said:


> Lethal white syndrome is only a concern if you are breeding two Overos, two toveros or an overo and a tovero. Lethal white is when a foal gets two copies (homozygous) of the Overo gene. Im going to assume that your mare is heterozygous for the tobiano pattern because of the apparent appy/paint cross breeding, it would be pretty tricky to get a homozygous. Paint color patterns are considered dominant genes and will show up in both heterozygous and homozygous foals. If the mare is a tobiano (as she appears to be) and the stud is from solid QH stock there is no chance of lethal white at all and you would have a 50% chance at tobiano. If the stud is Overo there is still no risk, and you will have equal 25% chance of tovero, tobiano, Overo and soild color patterns. If the stud is tobiano heterozygous you get 25% homozygous tobiano, 50% heterozygous tobiano and 25% solid. If the stud is homozygous tobiano you will get a tobiano foal no matter what 50/50 heterozygous vs homozygous.
> 
> I am not sure how the appaloosa coloration genes work but I'd give it about a 25% chance of showing up in the foal.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Isn't it better to pay $25 to guarantee the foal will be healthy in that regard?

It may be unlikely but it's better safe than sorry.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

There are other potential health concerns besides frame. They are both stock horse bred. HYPP comes to mind first.

ETA- just curious why she is orange?? lol


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Sorry for another post, but here's my response to the color question-
Black, Bay, Smokey Black, Buckskin (in theory Brown/Brownskin), Chestnut

For a chestnut mare the colors remain the same though the probabilities change. She's so bronzed I'm thinking NOT chestnut, I'd be curious if you get her tested someday.

Should be pretty accurate. If you don't want to get actual genetics figuring out grandparents colors would be next best.

50% chance of passing on the leopard gene.
50-100% (most probably 50%) of passing on tobiano.
Thinking she may have splash too? Sabino? (Tobiano does not cause face white) Potential to pass that on.
Dad appears to have sabino at least so that is another possibility.

Chances are baby would be pretty interesting! lol Of course you could end up with a solid chestnut or something haha.


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## horseaddicted (Jul 2, 2014)

stevenson said:


> lol. are you sure she is not preggers now ? she has a bit of a belly  . I would get her tested , to go through all the waiting to have a dead foal would be heart breaking, and costly.
> I have lost 2 foals and wont have any more preg mares.


No, lol, although it definitely seems that way. Her previous owners had to sell her because they didn't ride her anymore and she was getting way too overweight. And she's currently in heat. That was the first question we asked when we first bought her. The other mare that was with her was so fat I could hardly even sit on her.


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## horseaddicted (Jul 2, 2014)

Yogiwick said:


> There are other potential health concerns besides frame. They are both stock horse bred. HYPP comes to mind first.
> 
> ETA- just curious why she is orange?? lol


I've never heard of HYPP, could you explain? 


Red clay. Our entire pasture is red clay, and she's been rolling. She's only that clean because she loves to be washed! lol


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## horseaddicted (Jul 2, 2014)

Yogiwick said:


> Sorry for another post, but here's my response to the color question-
> Black, Bay, Smokey Black, Buckskin (in theory Brown/Brownskin), Chestnut
> 
> For a chestnut mare the colors remain the same though the probabilities change. She's so bronzed I'm thinking NOT chestnut, I'd be curious if you get her tested someday.
> ...


That's what we're thinking, pretty interesting! A solid chestnut is always possible though, it would be so weird to tell people this chestnut is out of an Appaloosa Paint! lol 
My mare has a half blue eye as well, if that indicates anything.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

HYPP is one of the genetic diseases found in stock horses (quarter horses, paints and Appaloosas). It can affect a carrier with only one copy, many are considered ticking time bombs. Not worth taking a chance at when breeding. There are other hereditary diseases common in stock breeds that you should also test for, those need a copy from each parent to be affected. Better be safe than sorry, all the expense into breeding and mare care should well invested with peace of mind and thoughtful planning to reduce potential risks. Good luck


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

horseaddicted said:


> My mare has a half blue eye as well, if that indicates anything.


Blue eyes are caused by one of two things- double cream dilution (obviously not the case here!) or pinto patterns. There are two pinto patterns known to cause blue eyes: frame (LWO) and splash. From the way her white pattern is, I'd be more likely to lean towards splash in her case, but frame is still a possibility (she could also have both!) Another reason to test for LWO before breeding!


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

horseaddicted said:


> I've never heard of HYPP, could you explain?
> 
> 
> Red clay. Our entire pasture is red clay, and she's been rolling. She's only that clean because she loves to be washed! lol


Lol REALLY orange in some spots 

Lucky to have a horse that likes it lol

Here's some info on HYPP- http://www.bringinglighttohypp.org/

There's some other stock horse issues out there too. With any breed, research the issues and test before you breed.


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## horseaddicted (Jul 2, 2014)

Yogiwick said:


> Lol REALLY orange in some spots
> 
> Lucky to have a horse that likes it lol
> 
> ...


Yup. It's pretty much impossible to keep white or partially white horses clean here.


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## horseaddicted (Jul 2, 2014)

The owner of the stud recalls a foal that mysteriously died shortly after birth from some kind of colic. Could that be a lethal white?


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

Was it a white foal?


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

horseaddicted said:


> The owner of the stud recalls a foal that mysteriously died shortly after birth from some kind of colic. Could that be a lethal white?


Lethal white foals die within 72 hours of birth. Here's a good description of it: College of Veterinary Medicine Veterinary Health Center


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## horseaddicted (Jul 2, 2014)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Lethal white foals die within 72 hours of birth. Here's a good description of it: College of Veterinary Medicine Veterinary Health Center


Sounds like it. I definitely need to get her tested for OLWS and HYPP. 

-After studying up on HYPP, I think a horse I had that had to be put down had it and it was a reaction to the oat hay we feed and our alfalfa based feed. So even if we don't end up breeding my mare we need to get her tested.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

^I would recommend that. It's the responsible thing to do. If you know what you are dealing with you can make adjustments to your program as needed.


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

Definitely a good idea. I did the 5 panel test through Animal Genetics for HYPP, HERDA, MH, GOD and PSSM and the cost was fairly reasonable. OLWS I did through UC Davis with other colour testing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

To be honest the fact the stud owner/breeder is so uneducated is a turn off to the stud himself, though he looks nice from that picture.


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## horseaddicted (Jul 2, 2014)

Yogiwick said:


> To be honest the fact the stud owner/breeder is so uneducated is a turn off to the stud himself, though he looks nice from that picture.


Yeah I know what you mean. We didn't directly ask him about OLWS, that was just something he mentioned, but I'll be asking him about it soon. 

The stud does look pretty nice, and his line of breeding is a really good-natured one. I really wanted to breed to an Appaloosa stud, but the rest of my family is sold on the whole "Appaloosa's are crazy" thing. I think it's nonsense. I've seen plenty of crazy horses, and none of them were Appaloosa.


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

Lol and that should say "GBED" not "GOD". Silly autocorrect. I honestly thought it was a small investment to make when considering possible vet bills later if she was positive for something. I didn't even have to test for HYPP because my mare doesn't go back to Impressive, but it was cheaper to do all 5, rather than individually.


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

horseaddicted said:


> Yeah I know what you mean. We didn't directly ask him about OLWS, that was just something he mentioned, but I'll be asking him about it soon.
> 
> The stud does look pretty nice, and his line of breeding is a really good-natured one. I really wanted to breed to an Appaloosa stud, but the rest of my family is sold on the whole "Appaloosa's are crazy" thing. I think it's nonsense. I've seen plenty of crazy horses, and none of them were Appaloosa.


Lol! That's the first time I've heard that. I've heard crazy Arabs, thoroughbreds and Saddlebreds, but never Appaloosas!


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## horseaddicted (Jul 2, 2014)

Glynnis said:


> Lol! That's the first time I've heard that. I've heard crazy Arabs, thoroughbreds and Saddlebreds, but never Appaloosas!


Really?? That's all anybody ever says about Appaloosas, that they're crazy and worthless. Crazy horses are just crazy horses, regardless of breed or color.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

LOL, I've never heard about Appys being crazy, but I have heard of them being stubborn as mules.

But anyone who knows mules should recognize that that only means that they are very smart. Sometimes too smart for their own good :wink::lol:.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Never heard the joke that goes:

"Do you know why the Nez Perce were such fierce fighters?

Because by the time they got anywhere on their Appaloosas, they were ready to kill anything."

I know a trainer that after working with his first Appaloosa for training, he knew exactly why that joke had a ring of truth.


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## horseaddicted (Jul 2, 2014)

smrobs said:


> LOL, I've never heard about Appys being crazy, but I have heard of them being stubborn as mules.
> 
> But anyone who knows mules should recognize that that only means that they are very smart. Sometimes too smart for their own good :wink::lol:.


The stubbornest horses are often the smartest.


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## brown327 (Oct 19, 2014)

Since the picture of the stallion seems to be missing, I wanted to verify if the AQHA stallion A Smokin Pistolena is the one in question? I am the owner of A Smokin Pistolena registered with AQHA if that is the stallion referred to above. Just to clarify he is a Mr Gun Smoke bred horse which are known for white markings. A Smokin Pistolena has NEVER produced a lethal white foal to date. I have been fortunate enough that I have NEVER lost a foal shortly after being born. If anyone has questions about A Smokin Pistolena, as his owner I'm happy to answer them. Thank you


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Glad you've never had lethal white but has your stud actually been tested negative for frame?

Not even sure if it's your horse this post refers to but I assume so.


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## brown327 (Oct 19, 2014)

Yogiwick said:


> To be honest the fact the stud owner/breeder is so uneducated is a turn off to the stud himself, though he looks nice from that picture.


You seem to think you already have the facts.


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

To me, it's kind of like not having your brakes checked in a vehicle that is known to have brake failures, because you haven't been in an accident yet. You've been lucky so far, there may not be a problem, but until you actually have them checked, you don't really know. 

Same goes for LWO. Just because you've never had a LWO foal, doesn't mean that your stud doesn't carry frame. It's reasonably cheap to test for, so may as well just do it and then you know for certain!  Stock breeds (among others) of many different lines are known to carry LWO, so I like to be safe rather than sorry.


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## brown327 (Oct 19, 2014)

Glynnis what you say makes perfect sense. I've never said it did not. Everyone is assuming I disagree or don't believe in testing because someone says I'm uneducated. The fact that people make statements as "facts" when they don't know me and probably 99% of the time never really have an interest in my horse is bothersome.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

brown327 said:


> You seem to think you already have the facts.


Well I don't... as you should know. If you read this thread, which apparently you have, there is very little said and going off the very little said I made my opinion. If you have more to add then I will gladly change my opinion based off the new information if necessary.

I asked a simple question which you now seem to be avoiding.

You said you have never lost a foal shortly after birth, and the OP commented "The owner of the stud recalls a foal that mysteriously died shortly after birth from some kind of colic. Could that be a lethal white?" So is this still your horse..? Which is true?

Seems like you came on here to educate and answer questions with an open mind but now that questions are getting asked you're coming off as defensive, rude and close minded.

So if I'm wrong show me and I will gladly recall my previous statement that the owner must be uneducated.

I don't know what everyone is assuming as this is your third post on the forum... Don't know why what I said has to do with that but again based off the very little information the owner came off as uneducated. You are the owner and are saying you're educated in this regard, so again, prove me wrong. I'm perfectly happy for you to do so.

I never said anything was a fact.

So again,
Is your stallion tested?
And is the previous statement about the foal dying shortly after birth true or not?


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

a foal dying shortly after birth could have been to infection . They can get naval ill and die fast.
Even if the Umbilical is treated . ;( They can be born sick , if the mare has been sick in her pregnancy, my Norwegian Fjord foal died within 2 days. He had septicaemia, was treated on his umbilical, the mare had gotten sick while preggers, first shipping fever, then a cold. 
Cost me over a grand in Vet bills trying to save him. The first foal I had that died got stuck in the mares pelvis with a hind foot and was oxygen deprived by the cord being crushed. ;( He tore my mare up and she could never be bred again, Not that i would have, I had to help the Vet get the foal out. My mare almost died.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

brown 237... can we see a pic of the stud? has the op contacted you about breeding a grade mare to your stud ? just curious..


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Stevenson I understand there are other reasons. I just wanted an answer as those two statements are pretty much opposite.

IF brown admitted that a foal HAD died I then would of asked more detailed questions to try to determine if the foal is lethal white or not.

I doubt we will get an answer though. I'm sorry about your foals .


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Buckskin with chrome stud of that name:










Now we need the brown to verify this is their horse, and the OP or someone who remembers (this thread is 3 months old..) to say this is the horse the thread is talking about/wondering if he has been tested for frame. I don't remember for sure but I'm pretty sure it is.

ETA- is this the pic the OP posted??


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Yogiwick said:


> Buckskin with chrome stud of that name:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Facebook picture links don't work anymore :wink:


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

I'm pretty sure that's the pic the OP posted (the second one).

Looks like the same horse in both pics.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Whoa-I just looked at the pics on FB. I really do not like his front pasterns in the pic with the owner on him. JMHO. 

Brown-has he been tested at all for Lethal white? Any of the 5 panel testing done?


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

^^Holy God!!!! :shock:


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

I think he does have longer pasterns, but it's accentuated maybe by having longish toes (at least in some photos) as well? At any rate, I think the stallion owner has left the building.


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## brown327 (Oct 19, 2014)

Did not leave the building, just been working. The pictures shown now are my horse A Smokin Pistolena. I have not talked to anyone about breeding there grade mare. I have not lost any foals recently after birth or any other time. Now genetic testing. The only reason A Smokin Pistolena has been available to the public is to help promote awareness and a little money for Huntingtons Disease and Juvenile Huntingtons Disease. This is a genetic disease that affects 1 in 10,000 Americans and many in other countries. This is how I learned the importance of genetic testing and research. This is why its tough to hear uneducated and gentic testing mentioned. Test results on our horse have always been available to the few customers we have had. Right or wrong thats just how its been done. So maybe its just time to stick to promoting HD awareness and forget the rest. If you want to learn more about HD visit www.huntforhd.com the horse even has a page there for now. Wish you all the best with your endeavors.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bridgertrot (Dec 2, 2011)

I guess we're still not going to get an answer.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I'm pretty sure that's the pic the OP posted (the second one).
> 
> Looks like the same horse in both pics.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Guess they work for some people. Definitely the same horse. Googling gave me a facebook page for this horse (severa actually) and the name of the ranch and such. So the horse in both pics is the same. The question was is this horse brown's horse, and/or the OPs horse, or was my Googling just fail lol.

And yeah. Plenty SAID on facebook about the horse that would make me run regardless of any physical issues with the horse.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

brown327 said:


> Did not leave the building, just been working. The pictures shown now are my horse A Smokin Pistolena. I have not talked to anyone about breeding there grade mare. I have not lost any foals recently after birth or any other time. Now genetic testing. The only reason A Smokin Pistolena has been available to the public is to help promote awareness and a little money for Huntingtons Disease and Juvenile Huntingtons Disease. This is a genetic disease that affects 1 in 10,000 Americans and many in other countries. This is how I learned the importance of genetic testing and research. This is why its tough to hear uneducated and gentic testing mentioned. Test results on our horse have always been available to the few customers we have had. Right or wrong thats just how its been done. So maybe its just time to stick to promoting HD awareness and forget the rest. If you want to learn more about HD visit The Hunt for HD the horse even has a page there for now. Wish you all the best with your endeavors.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So either it's not the same as the OP or someone got confused or isn't telling the truth. It's really not a big deal and I'm always happy to give people the benefit of the doubt. I'm sorry you took things so personal, it was an anonymous post people were giving opinions on and you must make your opinion on the information given. In fact I don't think I ever really had an "opinion" persay, just partaking in the conversation. Nothing at all personal. There was only one side to the "story" (not that it really was just asking for opinions). Doesn't matter.

What I think about your horse and whether he's available to the public or not are largely irrelevant. I did notice you were promoting research for diseases and I applaud that, right off the bat.

I think you're getting far too stuck on a little word. Again, context. Also talking apples and oranges.

I see the topic of test results is still being avoided. If you want to keep it to your customers I guess that's that.. The page doesn't say much.

So I'm sure we all agree disease research is a worthy cause but it's not super relevant to the issues at hand. Either the OP or brown is confused or not being entirely truthful (intentionally or not) but something's not adding up so it is what it is.


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