# Unsound Horses At Shows - Opinions



## RhapsGirl (Nov 28, 2010)

Recently, my trainer and I attended a schooling show, just to go watch. She noticed that a lot of the horses were unsound, primarily in the back. Not lame, but obviously not sound... thoughts on this?


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## VelvetsAB (Aug 11, 2010)

_Since it was a schooling show....my guess would be that there were quite a few school horses there. Sometimes with an older school horse, they dont have perfect movement anymore, and could have a stiff joint/leg. They are still "sound" to be ridden and worked....they just might look a little off._

_I ride a 19 year old school horse. When we first warm up, I know he looks off....but once we get 20 minutes in, he smooths out. The longer we ride, the better he moves. He just needs time to get everything stretched and warmed up._


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

I have to agree with Velvet.


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## CheyGurl17 (Aug 19, 2010)

I agree with Velvet, but I have also been to some shows where the horses are obviously in pain. The one horse also had a bit of a limp, and was asked to scratch out of all classes... so i do know that if it gets too bad, they might just have to scratch


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

At a schooling show, it's tough to know where to draw the line. At the other posters have said, older packers and school horses do tend to have mild soundness issues and mechanical lamenesses. 

Once, when I was judging, I had the steward hand a note to a trainer telling them not to send a horse back into the ring because of unsoundness. I didn't want to make a big deal of it, since I knew the horse was a useful school horse and part of their lesson program, but I didn't want it to continue to show. 

If you feel a horse is truly uncomfortable, not merely stiff or arthritic, report it to a show official.


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## BarrelracingArabian (Mar 31, 2010)

i agree with the above
we have a thoroughbred mare who fakes lameness all the time(she cant really feel she was uh pinfired? at the race track) and has been asked to scratch and one time the rider was walking her through the pattern and the darn horse limped went slow all the way till the last barrel and then bolted for home.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

I spoke with a judge at one of our shows and asked why they didn't excuse lame horses. She said they do not hold medical degrees so therefore it would be considered opinion. They can 'suggest' the participant have a vet look at the horse and then hope the rider takes the hint . . .


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

BarrelracingArabian said:


> i agree with the above
> we have a thoroughbred mare who fakes lameness all the time(she cant really feel she was uh pinfired? at the race track) and has been asked to scratch and one time the rider was walking her through the pattern and the darn horse limped went slow all the way till the last barrel and then bolted for home.


Horses do not tend to fake lameness issues. They just do not have the ability to think like that. Too much instinct there that tells them if they limp they get eaten.

Pinfiring does not remove the ability to feel anything.


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## BarrelracingArabian (Mar 31, 2010)

alwaysbehind-she does infact fake it they have had vets out several times and she is prefectly fine she has learned to fake the limp as she only does so at shows and she switches up from all 4s. Also i wasn't sure on the correct term but i am pretty sure she had the feeling removed or something like that to keep her running at the track but im not sure on the correct term im just going by what i was told


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## VelvetsAB (Aug 11, 2010)

BarrelracingArabian said:


> Also i wasn't sure on the correct term but i am pretty sure she had the feeling removed or something like that to keep her running at the track but im not sure on the correct term im just going by what i was told


_They would most likely be injecting her legs with some sort bute (or pain killer type medicine). To the best of my knowledge, you can not completely remove the feeling, but by injecting them with a pain killer, it blocks the pain. It is still there, they just cannot feel it.... So really it is just a numbing solution. They do not last forever though and will eventually wear off._


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## ErikaLynn (Aug 3, 2010)

BarrelracingArabian said:


> i agree with the above
> we have a thoroughbred mare who fakes lameness all the time(she cant really feel she was uh pinfired? at the race track) and has been asked to scratch and one time the rider was walking her through the pattern and the darn horse limped went slow all the way till the last barrel and then bolted for home.



It's funny you say that, because I know a horse that was for sale. Every time someone came to look at him, he was off. He would be fine the day before and fine after the people left. He was vet checked and his legs were fine. I don't know if he was faking, but it was a coincidence.


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

I have reported a few lame horses to a show steward. In my opinion, if your horse is lame, the last thing you should be doing is showing. 

I don't think horses have the capacity to 'fake' a limp. When this 'fake' limp comes up...have you tried buting? Then, if the limp goes away, you know she isn't faking.


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## BarrelracingArabian (Mar 31, 2010)

nope they didnt bute her it went away as soon as they were home she would act off and limp all day then come home and be jumpin around and acting up


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

It could simply be the footing, the stress of being at a show, etc. But it is not faking.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Also, in hunter shows, the reason why horses jog in to the ring in hand (unmounted) to get their ribbons is so they can be observed for soundness. (A rider posting on one leg or the other can diguise a lameness.) This is also why they call back 8 horses and pin six - they two "reserves" or call backs are in case a horse is eliminated for not jogging sound. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen, both at local and USEF shows. 

So I think it's bizarre that a judge thinks that it's not their job to have an opinion on the horse's soundness. Must be a different discipline, because in the hunters, it mostly definitely is the judge's job. 

And yes, there are some questionable horses, soundness wise, showing in hunter seat equitation since there is no jog and the horse is not being judged.


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## Amir (Nov 18, 2009)

ive seen horses being run hard at gymkhanas with fluro bandages around bleeding wounds with a very big very obvious limp that even a blind person could see the horse was lame, not be eliminated for the day. They might get eliminated in rider class, but not always.
Its plain and simple, some riders just want to win and dont care how they do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

Alwaysbehind said:


> It could simply be the footing, the stress of being at a show, etc. But it is not faking.


Agreed. 

Horses don't think like we do. I hate the, "He's faking hurt so he won't have to work!" Limping and not working are too indirect with one another for a horse to "fake." 

Also, BRA, when running home, or any thing horses consider fun, they will often overcome the mild pain from something in order to "frolic" for a moment. But that doesn't mean they were faking the pain.

I worked with a horse who foundered. I was trotting him, looking for lameness, and he was severely limping. As soon as I unclipped the lead, he galloped off, limp free. He surely wasn't faking that vet-diagnosed laminitis. :wink:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HollyBubbles (Jun 22, 2009)

The first gymkhana I went to there was a horse there and he had obviously had bandages on tight the night before, so got placed last in presentation, and the rider told the judge that he had done his tendons not long ago. He was still limping pretty bad and looked to be in pain and to be honest I was quite suprised she was even on him, every step he took his head was jerking up and down, so he obviously wasn't comfortable! I've seen this horse be competed when he was sound and he certainly does not jerk his head around. And I was even more suprised that all the judge had to say to her was "take it slow, he should be alright." -excuse me, what?! This same judge had told me that my horses eyes needed to be cleaned and my boots wiped, well sorry lady actually I did both 10minutes beforehand, not my fault the cold wind makes bubbles (and mine!) eyes water. And sorry, but how else was I supposed to get on the horse? My boots had grass on the bottom from walking before I rode(I stretch bubbles inhand before I get on, she's 25), everywhere else was polished spotless.

Bubbles went lame on me at a show in february this year. I got continuously told she would be fine and that she was just feeling the ground... Feeling the ground my left butt cheek!! She was in pain, so I got off, rugged and bandaged her up. And left her to graze tied to the trailer. I'm not riding a lame horse thanks, I prefer not to hurt my horses.


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## BarrelracingArabian (Mar 31, 2010)

as much as i know you guys are disagreeing with me, this horse was deffinately faking. she was completely fine walking around her pen, trotting/cantering out in the arena for fun, or being her sassy self during lessons(not an in pain kind of sassy she just has the moody mare attitude) .the second we got her to a show she would pick up the limp thing, she deffinately wasn't lame and isn't to this day they have had the vet check her out a couple times and she is completely fine she goes out on multiple trail rides and gives multiple kids lessons atleast 3-4 times a week with no issues what so ever. Sorry but i believe she is an exception she did it at every show with absolutely no signs of lameness/pain before or after the shows.


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## HollyBubbles (Jun 22, 2009)

> as much as i know you guys are disagreeing with me, this horse was deffinately faking. she was completely fine walking around her pen, trotting/cantering out in the arena for fun, or being her sassy self during lessons(not an in pain kind of sassy she just has the moody mare attitude) .the second we got her to a show she would pick up the limp thing, she deffinately wasn't lame and isn't to this day they have had the vet check her out a couple times and she is completely fine she goes out on multiple trail rides and gives multiple kids lessons atleast 3-4 times a week with no issues what so ever. Sorry but i believe she is an exception she did it at every show with absolutely no signs of lameness/pain before or after the shows.


One of my friend's horses fakes. If she doesn't have shoes on she refuses to walk over anything that's not grass, whether it be concrete, stones, gravel, tarseal and fair enough it hurts bare foot. But she still tries to get out of it when she does have shoes on. rider or not. She looks at it and kinda goes "oh crap, I've got shoes on now so I have to."
Bubbles fakes, if she doesn't want to be ridden she will turn bronc and I can't catch her, once I have caught her she will start limping and giving me the "please feel sorry for me" look. We know for a fact she is not in pain, she has been checked by multiple professionals multiple times. But I tell yah, as soon as I pull the whip out of the boot of my car she stops limping pretty quick. And no I don't abuse my horse with the whip, I just ride with one and she doesn't want to even be tapped with it, so she behaves. She's not scared of it or anything, she just straightens up when I pull it out because she knows I mean business. I don't trail ride etc with one.


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## Buckcherry (Nov 18, 2010)

When I had my TB joe he was currently living outside 24/7 and I was going to do shows with him but everytime I would show up in the morning get out of my car and he's be dead lame.. It was always abcesses, Not that he could do it on purpose obviously but it was annoying needless to say we never did a show ..


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## Buckcherry (Nov 18, 2010)

Since someone mentioned race horses I heard about this horse that is related to seattle slew that someone rescued from slaughter his name was freedoms flight this is what they said about his last race.

On April 4, 2008, after another two races, Freedom's Flight made his only run as a 3-year-old, at Gulfstream. Seconds after clearing the gate, his front leg snapped but didn't pierce the skin. He came from the back of the pack to finish third anyway.

Horses have a high pain tolerance how did he finish a race with a broken leg poor guy..
I've heard of people using legends injections what does that do?!?!?


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

My mare has shown when she appeared unsound in the warm up. She's 7 and has hock issues. This was the dead of winter, on one of the coldest days of the month, in the snow, before she got her injections.

Yeah, she's gonna look off.


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## Buckcherry (Nov 18, 2010)

I feel like if a horse needs injections to compete and be sound they shoudln't be competing just my honest opinion..


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Buck, so you think a horse with a little bit of arthritic change should be retired then?

I think that is a little extreme. There are lots of good things out there that help horses (and heck, dogs and humans too) who are a little stiff because of the start of arthritic changes move sound and happy. Why should they have to stop working?


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## Buckcherry (Nov 18, 2010)

No I'm not saying stop working at all I'm just saying maybe they should take it down a notch. If the horse can't do it without injections then why, whats the point. 
I just wonder why kind of long term effects it has on the horses and their joints?!?!
I wouldn't do it to my horse thats all I'm saying.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

They have been around a very long time so I am guessing the long term affects are known.


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

Buck,

I respect your opinion. 

However, I was at a dressage show. It's not like I was going to an event with her feeling off. We did two tests. And by the time we got into the arena, she was fine. 

horses with arthritic changes are always going to feel stiffer when it's extremely cold out. Demi is a 7 year old with the hocks of an older horse. Just because she's stiff in warm up means I shouldn't compete her when she is perfectly sound by the time we go into the arena? 

Wow. Guess I shouldn't be riding her all winter then...

My horse is HAPPY. She LOVES competing. Why in the world would I ever take that away from her when all she needs are injections in her hocks? she's young. It would be an enormous waste of talent to not event her just because she needs injections.

Do you know how many upper level horses of ALL disciplines survive off of injections?

_lots of them._


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

It makes me think about the fact that maybe I should just sit home and go on disability. The first bunch of steps every time I get up are stiff and pretty darn painful.


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## Buckcherry (Nov 18, 2010)

I'm not saying that if a horse in having pain caused from arthritis that we shouldn't do something to relieve their pain but to do it to keep them competing I don't agree with. 
I didn't mean retire the horse but i would really consider slowing down with the competing if it were my horse..There is a reason why horses get arthritis, and their bodies tell them to slow down......

I'm not putting people down that do this I am just saying my opinion and I know not everyone is going to agree and that is totally fine.


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

Demi and I are actually vamping up to have a very successful season at a level higher than we have been competing. 

she's feeling fresh and ready to go


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## Buckcherry (Nov 18, 2010)

That is great I am glad you are doing well and she is happy not critizing you or anyone. 
It was just an opinion and I respect yours as well
Good Luck in your competitions


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## VelvetsAB (Aug 11, 2010)

_I ride an old man. He is 19, turning 20. Somedays he is stiff...other days he is not. He gets injections. He moves a lot better with them. I am not sure how much more he can back down from showing as he only does schooling shows._

_Yeah sure, he is a lesson horse and probably jumps more then he should in a week, but it isn't like he is jumping 4' every day. _


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## horseluver50 (Mar 19, 2009)

My horse's legs are sore off and on all the time. It's really annoying, because last year when I went to a show where I was going in 5 different classes, I only ended up going in one class the one day, because she was off. I don't think they would've eliminated me for her being a little off, but I didn't have time to warm her up and whenever she isn't warmed up, she's off and she doesn't do too good.
Also, I didn't want people to think I was evil or something for riding my horse in the show when she was sore, I couldn't see what she looked like, it mightv'e not even of been noticeable, but I could feel it.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

There are injections, and there are injections. 

Many upper level horses routinely get synthethic joint fluid injections as part of their ongoing maintenence routine. They get them *preventively*, not because they're showing signs of joint wear and tear, but to prevent joint wear and tear. 

Repeated steriod injections are a totally different kettle of fish. If your horse has to to have steriod injections in order to continue to compete, then yes, it's time to consider a career change or a compromise in their competitive schedule, rather than continuing to do exactly what made them sore in the first place. Please notice I said *repeated* - if your horse has one steriod injection for an acute problem, and comes back after a break sound and ready to go, that's one thing. If your horse has to have repeated steriod injections on a regular basis to stay sound, IMO, then the best thing to do is consider a career change for that horse.

There's also a difference, IMO, between giving steriod injections to an older horse to keep him comfortable and useful, and giving them to a young horse, who clearly isn't going to hold up under what's being asked of them.


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## VelvetsAB (Aug 11, 2010)

_Thank you for explaining the difference in injections Maura. It makes more sense now._


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## Buckcherry (Nov 18, 2010)

maura thank you for that, I agree with the preventative injections but as for steroids, No
I didn't not know about that thanks for the facts


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## Mickey4793 (Sep 24, 2009)

BarrelracingArabian said:


> alwaysbehind-she does infact fake it they have had vets out several times and she is prefectly fine she has learned to fake the limp as she only does so at shows and she switches up from all 4s. Also i wasn't sure on the correct term but i am pretty sure she had the feeling removed or something like that to keep her running at the track but im not sure on the correct term im just going by what i was told


My horse used to fake a limp too. We had him checked in everything and he was perfectly healthy, nothing was medically wrong with him. I would have to kick his butt asking him to step out and to stop "pretending" and after like, two or three laps around the ring he would be perfectly fine as if he were thinking "Ok Ma, you win.. I'll work.." My trainer and I determined he was looking for a way out of work.

People would give me the most repulsed looks as I spurred on my "limping" horse and told him to move. They would scoff at me and say "Your horse is REALLY off.. you shouldn't be riding him!!!" After a few laps when my horse was moving normally they would be eating their words.


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## Gidget (Jan 19, 2010)

I had my horse looked at by two highly recommended vets as some members said she looked off in the behind. I had her checked and no signs of lameness of being off one said and the other said she was in no pain whatsoever. I even sent the same exact video as I posted on here..vet didnt see anything that made him alarmed and said I could go to my shows still. No one mentioned she was off at the show either.I actuallyhave one video that was taken..bad lighting but she looked a lot better in a bigger area instead of a small round pen. I will post it sometime. 

People try to be helpful with horses but sometimes people horses will look off and actually be totally find after truely being warmed up.
My horse likes to compete and does a good job. The only time she became cranky was when I was on her for about 9 hours. She was impatient waiting for our turnbut once we were doneshe was happy and had some pep to her walk.
Some horses I noticed in WP looked off at the lope but maybe it's because they were doing an extremely slow lope that looked like a trot? I am not sure.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I think that at a local level schooling show you are going to run into been there done that horses that have some stiffness. The important thing is not to jump to conclusions or become judgmental without knowing the full story. My beauty severed both tendons in her back leg. She had a major surgery, therapy, and a long recovery. Sshe is mechanically lame which means for her, basically she has lost some mobility. She also has some scar tissue. If you did not know her you might think she was sore and a bit swelled. She is not in any pain and has even been cleared to lightly jump. 

Higher level shows would dismiss her. I was at a qh show where a lady was excused for lameness. I saw her later and she was talking to a friend, apparently after a warm up he is completely sound. She screwed up and did not give him the time to warm up......

I think the horses safety and health should be number one but I also think they love to have a job so if you can keep them working...it is good for them...


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

A dressage horse at the WEG got dismissed for being unsound.

In dressage, at any level of competition, if the judge feels the horse is unfit to compete they will ring the bell and dismiss the horse. The rider may continue to compete the horse but they may continue to get dismissed. For a horse who is showing at the lower levels under a junior or an amateur who is only showing a grade 1 lameness (so not visible to most people) often times the comment "uneven rhythm" or "uneven steps" is seen a few places in the test, along with lowered marks. Some judges will dismiss the horse regardless.

This is why (imo) low doses of bute should be allowed, in some cases and accompanied by a vets note. The same way some riders are allowed special dispensation for a disability, these old schoolmasters should be able to have a little bute to ease the inflammation in their joints. Many sound schoolmaster horses I know can't be shown because when they stand in a stall for too long (like they would at a horse show) they get stiff. Small amounts of bute would help this, the same way we take Advil or Tylenol for stiffness.


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