# Hunters Bump or weak topline?



## seabiscuit91 (Mar 30, 2017)

Have you had a body worker out?
I would strongly recommend if you haven't, as they can really pick up on so much going on and why/where things need and also give you a program to help/fix/maintain any issues.

As for the photo, it's a little hard to tell, there is definitely a bump or some sort, but it's hard to see if it's a hunters bump/roached back as I can't really see a 'dip' so will leave others to discuss what they see.

But would 110% recommend a good body worker, who will also ease your mind as they can give you so much information and let you know if it's even a problem, or if it just needs some work.


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## GML01 (Sep 14, 2018)

seabiscuit91 said:


> Have you had a body worker out?
> I would strongly recommend if you haven't, as they can really pick up on so much going on and why/where things need and also give you a program to help/fix/maintain any issues.
> 
> As for the photo, it's a little hard to tell, there is definitely a bump or some sort, but it's hard to see if it's a hunters bump/roached back as I can't really see a 'dip' so will leave others to discuss what they see.
> ...


Not yet! I'll ask my vet if he knows of anyone he'd recommend. Hopefully it won't be too hard to find someone worth their salt (and not bank breaking as well! I live in a very horsey area, so anyone who actually knows what they're doing is hard to come by and harder to afford)

I wanted to get someone out about year ago I think, but after a search and a couple people going "you know, they're not actually trained and certified to work with horses" I got nervous. Although, the benefits of a good body worker would definitely outweigh the cons of a bad one!

I'll also see if I can get some better conformation pictures tomorrow!


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

> I'm reading an insane amount on hunters bumps at the moment. I've always known they weren't good, but I just thought they were the result of a poorly muscled horse and went away with conditioning and muscling. I didn't know until this afternoon that they were painful and the result of a detached sacral/lumber area.


A hunter's bump can appear for a number of reasons, but it's not as simple as lack of conditioning. It usually means some type of sacroiliac strain, but can be just a stretched tendon, or more seriously a torn or damaged tendon, which can lead to arthritic changes in the surrounding bones over time.

From what I've read, however, it is difficult to diagnose SI problems from just looking at the outside. If he has shown no signs of lameness or acute injury, I'd assume it was just odd muscle development related to him using his body improperly. Even if he had an old injury, you'd only need to do injections or something like that if the horse showed signs of pain or lameness and the vet said it was SI related. 

I believe horses can have those muscles overdeveloped if they have a weak hind end and/or a poor fitting saddle, even if they don't have an SI injury. If one side of the bump appears higher than the other, that is more likely to be an actual injury. The joint itself is really deep inside the horse, so you can't really palpate it to see if it is painful. If the back seems painful in the lumbar area, I'd consider if the saddle was making the horse sore and subsequently causing the horse to brace that area, causing the overdeveloped muscles. 
One culprit I know if is that older saddles can be too narrow at the rear channel, causing some pressure there which will make a horse brace.









This goes against popular thinking, but from what I've read about horse biomechanics, a horse being lunged with the poll lower than the withers has the weight more on the forehand, so is more likely to be avoiding using the hind end as much. If I saw signs of a weak hind end, such as a bump over the sacroiliac area, as long as the horse seemed sound I'd try to have him move with his neck higher and weight back in order to build the hind end more. If your neck and withers are developing but not the hind end, I'd be suspicious that your lunging on the forehand sessions are building up the front end and he's learning to use it more while neglecting the hind. Some hill work would help, and you could do some short gallops if he is fit enough.

30 minutes to me sounds like a very long time to lunge a horse. Circle work can be hard on the joints, and I'd also consider that a horse that has not been in work for a couple of years might strain something doing that unless it was on a very huge circle with excellent footing.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

Could it be just from the fact the horse could use some groceries from what your picture depicts?
The first picture she is very round and fully weighted...
The picture with "the bump" she is no where near the same weight and is lacking enough I can see it in her hind end, hip girdle, spine, hip bone and just the shape of her flank, etc...


Try what others have mentioned...but makes me wonder if you are seeing her loss of weight and muscling, muscle-tone and not so much a conformation issue from injury or misalignment.
:runninghorse2:...
_jmo..._


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## GML01 (Sep 14, 2018)

gottatrot said:


> From what I've read, however, it is difficult to diagnose SI problems from just looking at the outside. If he has shown no signs of lameness or acute injury, I'd assume it was just odd muscle development related to him using his body improperly. Even if he had an old injury, you'd only need to do injections or something like that if the horse showed signs of pain or lameness and the vet said it was SI related.
> 
> I believe horses can have those muscles overdeveloped if they have a weak hind end and/or a poor fitting saddle, even if they don't have an SI injury. If one side of the bump appears higher than the other, that is more likely to be an actual injury. The joint itself is realThis goes against popular thinking, but from what I've read about horse biomechanics, a horse being lunged with the poll lower than the withers has the weight more on the forehand, so is more likely to be avoiding using the hind end as much. If I saw signs of a weak hind end, such as a bump over the sacroiliac area, as long as the horse seemed sound I'd try to have him move with his neck higher and weight back in order to build the hind end more. If your neck and withers are developing but not the hind end, I'd be suspicious that your lunging on the forehand sessions are building up the front end and he's learning to use it more while neglecting the hind. Some hill work would help, and you could do some short gallops if he is fit enough.
> 
> 30 minutes to me sounds like a very long time to lunge a horse. Circle work can be hard on the joints, and I'd also consider that a horse that has not been in work for a couple of years might strain something doing that unless it was on a very huge circle with excellent footing.


This is pretty reassuring! After about two years of inconsistent work, and not until recently working towards correctness, I would expect some poor muscling and a bit odd distribution. I have some pictures I'll figure out how to add- probably the worst conformation shots ever, but I was by myself and he was dead on his feet. As horselovinguy pointed out, he will be getting an up in his grain and back out to a more grassy pasture! He definitely looks ribby in his pictures, but when feeling there seems to be a normal layer of fat over them... However, the bump has been present for a while- even when he was a chunky monkey, so I'm not sure if it's entirely weight related. Regardless, now that we're getting back into a consistent schedule, I'll be up-ing his yogurt cup by a generous amount and getting him back on a tri-amino supplement.

I do have an older saddle model, which is why I use a shim pad to relieve the pressure and cushion his back (without pinching), but I don't use this one often. My dressage saddle's channel stays wide, but I also use a fleece half pad to provide a little cushion as well. He's still sensitive when grooming with a hard brush/jelly curry, but when I apply the same pressure with my hand I don't get a response.

As for the lunging, I was under the impression that you "have to go low before you come up." After reading a bit more into it, it seems like that's an adage for a more experienced horse who can sustain self carriage, so I won't be pushing him into a deeper stretch than what he's giving me (for the most part, his poll stays level with the withers and he seeks a light contact very well). I definitely don't lunge him on a traditional circle, however! I use the entirety of the ring, with the occasional 20m circle to get a bit of a bend before sending him back onto the track. He tore a tendon on the track (40% tear) when he was 3, so we don't do extensive circling.

In addition to that, we have been starting hill work- we have a couple of gradual inclines, a steeper one we'll one day work up to, and the one my trainer calls a slider that I don't foresee us going within a mile of! If I don't ride him after the lunge, I'll typically hand walk him, and sometimes have him walk backwards up and down as well (truly a circus act- he enjoys it for nothing more than the treats). I've also been working him over the four poles we have, but when I move barns I'll be able to give him a bit more variety, and possibly do some raised trot poles.

(I've added the pictures as a google drive link... Have no idea if I'm doing that right lol)

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0dOSo-PUES2Wk5JV3A4b0tTSFktQ1ZIbkZEZkl0VWk3WEY4
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0dOSo-PUES2YmVLQ2V1Q1BhbkFPTlZUV3NRUjY2OUxjemM0
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0dOSo-PUES2Mkk0Z1JlWWJSZlJneDNtU1NQcWRfZVNRSlEw
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0dOSo-PUES2dkFzajQwZUQ1QjhpOGhCWDBuN0NBaFdKYno0


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Honestly, it just looks like those little knobby muscles are showing in the sacroiliac area because he's thin. TBs often have that sloping angle to the hind that makes them look bumpy up there unless they have some fat and muscle covering it. 
Since he's sound and you're working him properly, I wouldn't stress about it much and see how he looks and feels with a little more weight on.
It can be difficult with TBs when starting into work because they will drop weight sometimes.


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

I like this thread and know zero about tbs or have any advice. However someone on here (I can't think, maybe @mmshiro?) linked a video or a thread about developing a horse's back/engagement etc. In this video was a really great explanation, about halfway in, how poor way of going etc can bring about issues such as kissing spine/hunters bump etc. Not saying it's a perfect vid or I'm an expert to say otherwise but it really did get me thinking more about how the effects of my own riding and her own carriage etc as a prompt to do more homework!


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

The "knobs" are bone ends at the sacroiliac joint where bone joins the next bone... a joint.
Ever look at someone who is really thin...at their knees...some pretty bumpy areas are where the joint hinges/joins together various bony structures.
I'm _not_ really seeing "the bump" from a injury standpoint.
I'm seeing "the bump" from a loss of muscle, muscle-tone and weight in general.
His hindend is just plain weak in appearance with no muscle.
Yes, he needs groceries but he also needs muscle.
I'm *not* in favor of lunging at all a horse who tore a tendon...that is great torque on scar tissue known to not be elastic in nature. 
Jarring stops, turns and made to move movements...torque far different than just being loose in a t/o or under saddle.
Go for walks, take a slow jog for 10 minutes...no framing needed just let him move to build some muscle, some breathing capacity and heartrate...called endurance.
Let him limber up on his own as he warms those muscles to working capacity.
Making him go and hold "long & low" to me is not in his best interest, nor in his capability at this point in time.
If you think he has a issue and doesn't, he sure runs the risk to become sore being forced to do something he is not capable of doing undersaddle for more than a few steps at best...
His head/poll level with his wither or slightly lower_ is_ just fine...
Tell me when you have seen a horse "in freedom play" move and hold that exaggerated form for more than a few steps..._they don't!_ 
Or I will say mine sure don't!! :|

Remember to increase feed slowly and not to exceed in amounts the_ per meal_ amounts...
Myself, I would start adding some senior feed to the diet as it is balanced in vitamins and minerals along with forage and fats the body can really use. Senior is also pretty high in calories compared to many others.
Added slowly, _in addition_ to whatever he has currently, a few pounds per feeding added will put some much needed weight on the frame.
I would add a note of caution if you plan on doing supplements in addition to upping the feed as over-doing or knocking out of balance the delicate ratio can be more problematic or in some cases deadly to our horses..._use caution please._
Once the frame has more weight, the extra padding you use on that saddle that had fit him should be able to be removed and the better fit return.
Only "pad" actually needed under a saddle of the various English disciplines is a thin layer to keep the saddle underside clean...all the added this, that and something else actually can be detrimental to the good fit you want to achieve.
Watch carefully as your horse gains in weight and musculature as saddle re-fitting may need done a few times as a return to work & condition occurs.
:runninghorse2:...
_jmo..._


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The bump looks like an old SI injury, if he's sound it probably won't bother him at all
You can have a rectal ultrasound done to get a general idea of whats going on


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## knightrider (Jun 27, 2014)

My horse Chorro developed what I thought was a hunter's bump when he was about 4 years old. I thought it was from a poorly fitting saddle. I discovered it about a week after he started to develop it, so I caught it very early. My horse chiropractor worked with him, and like you, I read everything I could find on the internet about what to do. I did lots and lots of the recommended exercises with Chorro, and the hunter's bump pretty much went away. There is only a tiny hint of what he had.

When I bought Isabeau at age 5 turning 6, she already had a hunter's bump. I asked the breeder when and how she got it, and they didn't even know she had it. They didn't know what a hunter's bump was, although it is also sometimes called a gaiter's bump or reiner's bump.

The two photos are Chorro and what was left of his hunter's bump, and Isabeau's bump, which she must have had for a while and no chance of working her out of it. It doesn't bother her in the slightest--she has a glass smooth gait and is a dream to ride.


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