# I need a bit with more stopping power..



## Kymbadina (Oct 29, 2010)

My 9 year old gelding listens really well with his current bit except that he doesn't like to stop..so I'm looking for a step up from his current..I'd prefer it to be a french link because the single joints irritate him.
This is his current bit..








So I'm looking for something a step up from where we are now but while being as nice as possible. Any help??
I was looking at pelhams..I learned in one so it would be second nature to me but I'm looking for something a little more idiot proof for the boyfriend to ride in so that he can't accidently ruin his mouth...


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

You have openned Pandora's box, my dear. You will get tons of advice from people telling you that you need to work on your horse's training , rather than turning to a different bit to solve this lack of brakes problem. And, truth is, that's probably the best thing to work on.

As for a bit, you could try a thinner bit, if you want a tiny bit more "bite". Perhaps not a Baucher. Ever heard of or seen a PeeWee bit? It's basically a MUllen mouthed thin bit and it might help.

But mostly , you will want to work on building your horse's sensitivity to the bit in general, and teaching him to come "off" the bit when you ask him to stop. To not only stop, but to rock his body backward and halt with his weight on his back legs, and wait for you to ask him to move on. 

Or, you could try something totally different like a hackamore. 

But ultimately, it's having the horse respectful of what the bit means and you being as light as you can when you can and as strong as necessary to get him to come off and not get into a stalemate.


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## barrelracer892 (Apr 3, 2010)

^^ Tiny couldn't have said it better!


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

Great post Tiny! I am 100% for more training less bitting if he is great in his bit keep him in his bit. Teach him to stop with your aids and seat, not by pulling on his reins.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

If you don't fix what YOU are doing wrong six months from now you'll be looking for another bit because he won't stop again. I suspect that there are a lot of english ridden horses that have problems like this because it seems like it would be easy for "contact" to become "constant pulling with no release" if you weren't careful.


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## Eolith (Sep 30, 2007)

kevinshorses said:


> I suspect that there are a lot of english ridden horses that have problems like this because it seems like it would be easy for "contact" to become "constant pulling with no release" if you weren't careful.


This is a fine line. Careful not to make generalizations. :wink: Obviously it's not what any rider is going for... but I agree, once you get into that pulling cycle it can be very hard to reverse.

OP, a well trained horse (in my personal opinion) is one that will halt 80% off of your seat and body, with perhaps the last 20% being reins to keep it neat, finished, and pretty. I am one of those people who is going to encourage you to do some revisiting on his training, not his tack.


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## Kymbadina (Oct 29, 2010)

That really makes sense and I'm embarrassed for not thinking that. Any idea on how to do so? I ride with contact I' not constancy in his mouth. However when the boyfriend rides he rides with no contact and a trot becomes a canter. We were actually looking at a hackamore because there only seems to be issues when he rides in a bit. When he's barracks in a halter there aren't any issues.
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## Kymbadina (Oct 29, 2010)

Eolith said:


> This is a fine line. Careful not to make generalizations. :wink: Obviously it's not what any rider is going for... but I agree, once you get into that pulling cycle it can be very hard to reverse.
> OP, a well trained horse (in my personal opinion) is one that will halt 80% off of your seat and body, with perhaps the last 20% being reins to keep it neat, finished, and pretty. I am one of those people who is going to encourage you to do some revisiting on his training, not his tack.


He stops for me because your right. My halts are mostly seat and body with hardly any rein. I should have examined further before posting because now I've made fool of myself. -_- I'll have the boyfriend ride bareback in a halter until I can supervise his riding and give him help.
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## Eolith (Sep 30, 2007)

No reason to feel like a fool. What's this place for, if not to ask questions and get input? There's plenty of stuff I don't know, and plenty of stuff I do... as I'm sure is the case with you.


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## Kymbadina (Oct 29, 2010)

Yes exactly. This is just my first owned horse and I've never had the ability to make these decisions I've alwaysbeen in lessons or as before I got him exercising other peoples horses..with their tack. I've been riding for 10 years and would like to think I'm competent enough town a horse and further its training. It's just when these issues arise I have nowhere to turn. My horses are boarded at a more private owned stable. there is no trainer on site so you re your own trainer and I'm the only english rider so there's definitely no help there.. it was suggested I ride in a slow twist which I absolutely refuse. KNOW he doesn't need that.. we are learning together.
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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

Im glad you were smart enough to ask first before you upped the bite, then you thought it over and came to a great conclusion yourself. Nothing foolish in that at all, it is you having common sense, not being foolish.

Please dont be afraid to come on here thinking one thing and then get a page full of dont do thats, we are very opinionated, and if you are open minded I think you will have great success when you ask for help. Everyone has to learn, and as long as you are really willing to learn I think you will have no problem learning a great deal about whatever you have question about on this forum!


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## Kymbadina (Oct 29, 2010)

Honeysuga said:


> Im glad you were smart enough to ask first before you upped the bite, then you thought it over and came to a great conclusion yourself. Nothing foolish in that at all, it is you having common sense, not being foolish.
> Please dont be afraid to come on here thinking one thing and then get a page full of dont do thats, we are very opinionated, and if you are open minded I think you will have great success when you ask for help. Everyone has to learn, and as long as you are really willing to learn I think you will have no problem learning a great deal about whatever you have question about on this forum!


I've learned so much already and I don't pretend to know anywhere near anything. If I don't know something I research it until I could write a paper. I really like this forum. the biggest help I got was with my ottb. She was given to me by the stables owner because I pay my board early and took an interest in her and he wanted to see her being worked. Overtime I see him he says ride that horse and get her jumping in shows. Yea could. She w/t/c and is willing to take a jump. But before really working her I popped on here for opinions. Now I know better and she doesn't get ridden only groundwork so I really enjoy the forum and do try to keep an open mind because I know I still have a lot to learn.
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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

You have come to the right conclusion. I finally have a horse who is "light" in my hands, and want to keep it that way. So, when others ride him, it is in a Parelli Hackamore (basically a NH halter and reins). That way I have control over who is messing with his mouth and a bit-ME!


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## Eolith (Sep 30, 2007)

franknbeans said:


> So, when others ride him, it is in a Parelli Hackamore (basically a NH halter and reins). That way I have control over who is messing with his mouth and a bit-ME!


That's exactly what I want to do with our horses when someone else is riding! That, or deny them much reins at all and keep them on the longe line until they can move with the horse well enough not to lose their balance and try to use the reins for support.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

My daughter actually likes riding with the P. hackamore better, which is a good thing!


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## Kymbadina (Oct 29, 2010)

My boyfriend enjoys riding in just his nylon halter. I've been debating getting a rope halter or a hackamore.
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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

My non rider friends ride Soda in a halter with reins too. They say he doesn't "listen" to the pulling and I tell them it's because they aren't using their bodies like they need too. I don't want them yanking on his mouth like that, it's bad enough on his face. Of course I'm really anal about who rides him so it doesn't happen often. 

One thing I've learned with him is if you ask correctly he will do it. Unless he thinks something's going to eat him that is. :? I think a majority of horses are like that.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

I love threads with happy endings.


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## RATHER BE RIDING (Dec 7, 2010)

I had the exact same problem with my mare. I would ask for a halt and she would either ignore me or go another 5 strides before she even started to slow down. So I did the entirely wrong thing. I bitted up. I got a Kimberwick and she did listen to it. She respected the bit, but she did not respect me. I finally got a clue and went back to basics. I put a snaffle back on her and when I asked her to stop and she didn't, we would circle. (I would always trot the circles.) In the beginning, before she caught on, we would circle and circle and circle. I would sit down and ask again for the halt. If she did not, we continued to circle. Finally, she would get tired of circling. When she did stop, I would ask her to back just 2 or 3 steps. I would continue my ride and start that exercise all over again when I asked for the halt. It really did not take her too long to figure out that if she did not stop when I asked, she would be working harder. The other exercise that we practiced was trotting 3 or 4 strides and then I would sit, ask for the halt. When she stopped, I would back her 2 or 3 steps and then make her stand. Then continue on another 3 or 4 strides. I wanted to break her from thinking that she was always going to be going forward for long periods of time and she needed to tune into me. It took about 2 weeks of this to really get it into her brain, but now I ride her in a sidepull. All I have to do is sit down and she stops and backs up 3 steps without me ever having to pick up the reins. It takes time and patience, but, in my case, it was well worth it.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

What a nice job of training, I'd hire you to train if I had a horse that needed it!


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## RATHER BE RIDING (Dec 7, 2010)

What a wonderful complement!


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

RATHER BE RIDING said:


> I had the exact same problem with my mare. I would ask for a halt and she would either ignore me or go another 5 strides before she even started to slow down. So I did the entirely wrong thing. I bitted up. I got a Kimberwick and she did listen to it. She respected the bit, but she did not respect me. I finally got a clue and went back to basics. I put a snaffle back on her and when I asked her to stop and she didn't, we would circle. (I would always trot the circles.) In the beginning, before she caught on, we would circle and circle and circle. I would sit down and ask again for the halt. If she did not, we continued to circle. Finally, she would get tired of circling. When she did stop, I would ask her to back just 2 or 3 steps. I would continue my ride and start that exercise all over again when I asked for the halt. It really did not take her too long to figure out that if she did not stop when I asked, she would be working harder. The other exercise that we practiced was trotting 3 or 4 strides and then I would sit, ask for the halt. When she stopped, I would back her 2 or 3 steps and then make her stand. Then continue on another 3 or 4 strides. I wanted to break her from thinking that she was always going to be going forward for long periods of time and she needed to tune into me. It took about 2 weeks of this to really get it into her brain, but now I ride her in a sidepull. All I have to do is sit down and she stops and backs up 3 steps without me ever having to pick up the reins. It takes time and patience, but, in my case, it was well worth it.


Going back to basics is So valuable, but I think some of us lose sight of the more common sense fixes.(myself included!) It goes back to "making the right thing easy, and the wrong thing difficult". I am constantly reminding myself of that.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

RBR, great post. That also gives the OP some exercises to work on with her horse.

OP, no reason to feel foolish at all. None of us know anything until we are taught. Some of us have lived through that mistake where you end up with a horse that doesn't listen in anything you put on his head. I wish this place had existed 10 or 15 years ago and I had found it then, it would have prevented a lot of the stupid mistakes of my youth. Like Honey said, we tend to be pretty opinionated and can be a bit abrasive at times but we always have the horse's best interests in mind when we post.


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## Kymbadina (Oct 29, 2010)

RATHER BE RIDING said:


> I had the exact same problem with my mare. I would ask for a halt and she would either ignore me or go another 5 strides before she even started to slow down. So I did the entirely wrong thing. I bitted up. I got a Kimberwick and she did listen to it. She respected the bit, but she did not respect me. I finally got a clue and went back to basics. I put a snaffle back on her and when I asked her to stop and she didn't, we would circle. (I would always trot the circles.) In the beginning, before she caught on, we would circle and circle and circle. I would sit down and ask again for the halt. If she did not, we continued to circle. Finally, she would get tired of circling. When she did stop, I would ask her to back just 2 or 3 steps. I would continue my ride and start that exercise all over again when I asked for the halt. It really did not take her too long to figure out that if she did not stop when I asked, she would be working harder. The other exercise that we practiced was trotting 3 or 4 strides and then I would sit, ask for the halt. When she stopped, I would back her 2 or 3 steps and then make her stand. Then continue on another 3 or 4 strides. I wanted to break her from thinking that she was always going to be going forward for long periods of time and she needed to tune into me. It took about 2 weeks of this to really get it into her brain, but now I ride her in a sidepull. All I have to do is sit down and she stops and backs up 3 steps without me ever having to pick up the reins. It takes time and patience, but, in my case, it was well worth it.


I just want to make sure I got this correctly. I actually rode him in an english hackamore with a curb strap..Fleece Lined Hackamore - Statelinetack.com
I had the curb on the loosest setting possible and he listened very well.

My boyfriend pointed out he listens in the snaffle..but I very strongly believe that is because it hurts his mouth. He also rides with his head up like a giraffe.
So french link it is. So you ask for a halt and if she doesnt halt you pick up a trot in circles? Then what trot a few circles and try again?


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## RATHER BE RIDING (Dec 7, 2010)

The whole purpose of this exercise is to make the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult. (Thanks, franknbeans!) If you ask for a halt and your horse does not listen to you and wants to keep moving forward, then you have to make the moving forward your idea, not his. Circles are more difficult for a horse then moving in a straight line. So I ask for circles at the trot. These are small circles. The smallest that you can do and not feel like your horse is going to fall over. You can also do small figure eights. Directional changes are great for keep a horse focused on you. You are trying to make your horse work harder so that he wants to stop. Sometimes this takes 4 or 5 circles, sometimes it takes 10 or 20. It depends on how quickly your horse figures out that if he does not stop when you want him to, he is going to have to work harder. Trot the circles, ask for the halt. If he does not stop, pick up the trot again. I am not talking about stopping on a dime. Just a stop where he feels like he wants to stop and is not still pulling to go forward. Once he does stop, let him stand and relax for a few seconds. This is his reward or release. Then go on with your ride as normal and repeat the exercise the next time you ask for a halt and he does not stop. A horse stopping when you ask is not a bit issue, it is a training issue. A bit is simply a means of communication. If a bit is hurting your horse, it will be very difficult to get your horse to focus on you. I would make sure that he is not having any medical issues. A snaffle, adjusted correctly, should not hurt a horse, however, if a harsher bit was used and it hurt the horse, he will react to any bit as if it is now going to hurt him. This can be another reason for not stopping and holding his head so high, he is trying to avoid pain. Even if there is none, he remembers it from before. This is something that you will need to train through until he finally realizes that he is not being hurt. 

Please keep asking questions and let me know how this works for you. It does not "fix" your horse overnight. Problems take time to develope and take time to heal. Do not get frustrated, just keep working towards the end goal.


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## WickedNag (Sep 7, 2010)

See a lot of statements I agree with. You need to fix the training not more bit. My daughter's horse can be at a full run and stop with nothing but a change in seat and leg. Not a bridle on so no bit involved. He is finely tuned and many could not ride him ....


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## Kymbadina (Oct 29, 2010)

RATHER BE RIDING said:


> The whole purpose of this exercise is to make the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult. (Thanks, franknbeans!) If you ask for a halt and your horse does not listen to you and wants to keep moving forward, then you have to make the moving forward your idea, not his. Circles are more difficult for a horse then moving in a straight line. So I ask for circles at the trot. These are small circles. The smallest that you can do and not feel like your horse is going to fall over. You can also do small figure eights. Directional changes are great for keep a horse focused on you. You are trying to make your horse work harder so that he wants to stop. Sometimes this takes 4 or 5 circles, sometimes it takes 10 or 20. It depends on how quickly your horse figures out that if he does not stop when you want him to, he is going to have to work harder. Trot the circles, ask for the halt. If he does not stop, pick up the trot again. I am not talking about stopping on a dime. Just a stop where he feels like he wants to stop and is not still pulling to go forward. Once he does stop, let him stand and relax for a few seconds. This is his reward or release. Then go on with your ride as normal and repeat the exercise the next time you ask for a halt and he does not stop. A horse stopping when you ask is not a bit issue, it is a training issue. A bit is simply a means of communication. If a bit is hurting your horse, it will be very difficult to get your horse to focus on you. I would make sure that he is not having any medical issues. A snaffle, adjusted correctly, should not hurt a horse, however, if a harsher bit was used and it hurt the horse, he will react to any bit as if it is now going to hurt him. This can be another reason for not stopping and holding his head so high, he is trying to avoid pain. Even if there is none, he remembers it from before. This is something that you will need to train through until he finally realizes that he is not being hurt.
> 
> Please keep asking questions and let me know how this works for you. It does not "fix" your horse overnight. Problems take time to develope and take time to heal. Do not get frustrated, just keep working towards the end goal.


It was way too cold to ride today but I lightbulb went off in my head.. I had been riding him in a D ring snaffle..it wasn't working so we switched to the french link boucher which worked wonders in some parts(he went from carrying his head like a giraffe to lowered..not QUITE hunter but MUCH better than the saddleseat he did look like)
HOWEVER! 
Since we've changed bits I've also had his teeth floated. The vet had me stick my hand in his mouth and wow...major points. He's 9 and she guessed he had never had his teeth done the way they were. So Since you said a snaffle should work fine I'll try it again now that his teeth are floated. I don't know if I'll have time to ride tomorrow as the vet is coming out to look at my other horse but if I can I will switch bits and try him out again as well as do what you're suggesting.


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## azhorseluvr1222 (Dec 4, 2010)

Glad I found this thread : ) I have switched my Tb from a Tom Thumb to a french link eggbut snaffle. I didn't know how it was going to go since the new bit is milder but it went pretty well he didn't toss his head as much, he tended to brace against it a bit at first but I just kept my hands as light and quiet as I could and gave him clear verbal ques and he did pretty well and caught on quickly. The only thing was the stop and now that I have some tips thanks to this thread we will be working on that tonight


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## Kymbadina (Oct 29, 2010)

azhorseluvr1222 said:


> Glad I found this thread : ) I have switched my Tb from a Tom Thumb to a french link eggbut snaffle. I didn't know how it was going to go since the new bit is milder but it went pretty well he didn't toss his head as much, he tended to brace against it a bit at first but I just kept my hands as light and quiet as I could and gave him clear verbal ques and he did pretty well and caught on quickly. The only thing was the stop and now that I have some tips thanks to this thread we will be working on that tonight


Its been working with my gelding. He stops a little quicker when he realizes its stop or work a lot. Just been too cold to really ride consistantly.
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## azhorseluvr1222 (Dec 4, 2010)

It worked!! I did the trot in circles and then ask for a halt and after just a few times he did it beautifully. Same thing when I had him going in large figure eights at a canter. He slowed when I asked and didn't toss his head, brace against the bit and was actually waiting for me to cue him. Yeah I am so happy : )


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## RATHER BE RIDING (Dec 7, 2010)

azhorseluvr1222 said:


> It worked!! I did the trot in circles and then ask for a halt and after just a few times he did it beautifully. Same thing when I had him going in large figure eights at a canter. He slowed when I asked and didn't toss his head, brace against the bit and was actually waiting for me to cue him. Yeah I am so happy : )



I am so glad that it worked for you!!! I think one of the great moments in riding is where you have that feeling of "I did it! I communicated with my horse and showed him what I wanted and he spoke back and said that he got it!" Keep that line of communication open. Good work!!


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## threestargirl (Jul 5, 2008)

I would recommend a 3-Ring bit, aka Dutch Gag or Elevator Bit. It has worked really well with all the horses I have ridden that don't like to stop very well. It works better if your horse is heavy AND hot, so if your horse is really light and doesn't like much contact with the bit it doesn't work as well because it gets them too "up" and sometimes makes them hotter. But if you have a heavier horse, then this is like the wonder bit. I would also recommend a slow-twist snaffle or a Waterford bit if your horse isn't heavy but is still hot. 

3-Ring:









Slow Twist:









Waterford:


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## Kymbadina (Oct 29, 2010)

I've thought about a waterford bit but not a twist or gag. He's not heavy or hot he responds to very little contact its only asking for a stop that he can be pigheaded. However I've been working with him and he's getting MUCH better.
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