# Stallion Critique



## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

This is Fame and Glory - at least the best photo I could get of him,

He won Group1 races at 2,3,4 and 5 years old - including the Irish Derby, 2nd in English Derby, stayed on in training to win an Ascot Gold Cup,

He stands as a National Hunt and Flat stallion now, here in Ireland, 

He's interesting because his first two crops produced very good looking foals and yearlings,

I have a mare in foal to him now, and I'm looking forward to what they produce, and maybe go back to him again,

I think he's a fantastic looking horse; scope, size, bone, powerful - just what I want for producing a Steeplechaser,

Also I included a picture of the mare when she was in training, so comments on her are welcome also,

Any feedback is very welcome, Thanks! 

FAME AND GLORY:








REGAL EMPRESS:


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## lilruffian (Jun 28, 2010)

Overall, he's very nicely built for sure. If I am gonna TRY and find something I don't like, it would be his neck, because personally I prefer well muscled necks. That's about it though 
Mare is hard to judge as she is in motion in the photo


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Shame there aren't any better photos - I did look.
He's a really well built powerful horse though with a good performance record so well worth a consideration


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

lilruffian said:


> Overall, he's very nicely built for sure. If I am gonna TRY and find something I don't like, it would be his neck, because personally I prefer well muscled necks. That's about it though
> Mare is hard to judge as she is in motion in the photo


I have a few more of the mare, at various stages of development and fitness as she's a homebred 

e.g.

3yo - before she went into training
















After some pre-training









5yo - just back from racing - I don't like this picture as she still has shoes on in front


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

jaydee said:


> Shame there aren't any better photos - I did look.
> He's a really well built powerful horse though with a good performance record so well worth a consideration


Hi Jaydee,

There's a good video of him here, you can see his walk and I think he has a really nice good, long stride with good easy movement, 

Nb: he's a Montjeu who are very hot-tempered and him swishing his tail about and all that is to be expected, they make brilliant racehorses though, I think his attitude is what you'd want to see in a Montjeu

others may differ .. ? 

https://youtu.be/kchHswuWxc4?t=347


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

Actually - seeing as how the forum integrates YouTube so well, I put a couple of videos of the mare also






(She's on the near-side, and in front)


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The video gives a much better view of him. He's a good looking horse, a little long in the back maybe which could result in a weakness if it was passed on to anything bred for jump racing?


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

jaydee said:


> The video gives a much better view of him. He's a good looking horse, a little long in the back maybe which could result in a weakness if it was passed on to anything bred for jump racing?


That's actually a very interesting point that I'm a bit conflicted on - the short back is certainly stronger, and the horses are faster (especially a Sprinter, say)

But! ... the _stayers _seem to be a little longer in the back, and of course all Steeplechases are 2m+, and really I want to breed a Gold Cup horse as an ideal, which is 3m3f, or a Grand National (Irish 3m4, English 4m+) as they are the ones who make the most money at sale, 

So, I'll show you what I've been looking at which is a collection of the best Chasers and what shape they had,

I think Fame and Glory is pretty square though still, he's tall and has a lot of room underneath him, do you think ? 

Also, what do you think of his walk ? Maybe I'm being too perfectionist but I'm not sure he walks perfectly straight, seems to wing in-out in front, and maybe a little close behind ??

Here are some greats!:


ARKLE:








DENMAN:








KAUTO STAR:









and from our own family, 

WRATH OF TITANS: (Kerry Grand National winner this year, Oscar half-brother to the mare)








THUNDER AND ROSES: (Irish Grand National winner 2015, Presenting full brother to the mare)









Also, I know this mare has been here before, and I got a lot of excellent advice and learned a lot from it, but do you have any other comments to make on her ? Obviously I have my own opinion, good and bad, but I'd love to hear more feedback, 

Thanks !


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Hard to say whether he's walking like that - sort of meandering - because he's not he's not very straight or because he's being asked to move at a slower pace than he naturally wants too so can't figure out what he wants to do with his legs!!!
From the side, when he walks, he has a slightly disunited look that comes from his hip region.
I did take a snip from the video - his back doesn't look so long in it - obviously not a short coupled horse but not so long as it should make a difference. I've put it alongside Kauto Star to compare
Re. your mare, I think the only real concerns with her was that she ran heavy of the forehand but I think that was something that resolved itself didn't it?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Only thing I can add, since I am no expert in your disciplines, but do know certain 'nicks' work better then others, thus, do you know off offspring, that resulted from a mare bred similarly to yours, bred to that stud, and what they achieved ?


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## EliRose (Aug 12, 2012)

I'm going to be honest, I love Fame and Glory and I really like your mare, but I'm not a huge fan of the cross. I think your mare needs a stallion with a little shorter back to compensate for her long one, but I know that is the norm in Euro racing.
@Smilie TrueNicks only takes into account the sire lines of the mare and stallion, but here is their nick of the cross (Camelot and *** share the same sire). Not super successful but not too bad.
Mating of Camelot (GB) with =Regal Empress (IRE)
@lilruffian You should look at some pics from when he was racing  Nice strong neck.


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

Smilie said:


> Only thing I can add, since I am no expert in your disciplines, but do know certain 'nicks' work better then others, thus, do you know off offspring, that resulted from a mare bred similarly to yours, bred to that stud, and what they achieved ?


That's a very good point, and all I can say is that there isn't enough sample size of the mare's sire as a broodmare sire, unfortunately - in the small sample so far Presenting does perform very well as a broodmare sire,

Furthermore, the stallion has had no runners yet, but his progeny have been very well received as foals and yearlings,

But, yes, it's something I'm keeping a close eye on - some half-sisters to the mare have runners just ready to come out and they are by standard National Hunt Sires, e.g. Milan etc.. so I'll see how they get on


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

EliRose said:


> I'm going to be honest, I love Fame and Glory and I really like your mare, but I'm not a huge fan of the cross. I think your mare needs a stallion with a little shorter back to compensate for her long one, but I know that is the norm in Euro racing.
> @*Smilie* TrueNicks only takes into account the sire lines of the mare and stallion, but here is their nick of the cross (Camelot and *** share the same sire). Not super successful but not too bad.
> Mating of Camelot (GB) with =Regal Empress (IRE)
> @*lilruffian* You should look at some pics from when he was racing  Nice strong neck.


Hi Eli, thanks for the analysis, could you break it down a little - I understand Dosage but I don't think it's a wonderful tool for Euro analysis, especially for a sire like Presenting who is a definite 'chef-de-race' for National Hunt but not as a Flat sire - he's been brilliant for the size, scope and stamina of his stock - not exactly what the Flat desires !

I'm a bit surprised at the co-efficient of relatedness, and the inbreeding co-efficient - they are higher than I'd have thought 

Also - does the truenicks include National Hunt runners - I somehow doubt that it does, and that's what I'm trying to breed. Although I just see Don't Touch It who is a National Hunt runner, so I may be wrong ...


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

jaydee said:


> Hard to say whether he's walking like that - sort of meandering - because he's not he's not very straight or because he's being asked to move at a slower pace than he naturally wants too so can't figure out what he wants to do with his legs!!!
> From the side, when he walks, he has a slightly disunited look that comes from his hip region.
> I did take a snip from the video - his back doesn't look so long in it - obviously not a short coupled horse but not so long as it should make a difference. I've put it alongside Kauto Star to compare
> Re. your mare, I think the only real concerns with her was that she ran heavy of the forehand but I think that was something that resolved itself didn't it?


Yes I get that same impression of Fame and Glory - that's he meandering along and hence it's hard to say.

With the mare - yes, a simple change of bit got her running with a much better style,


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

@EliRoseMating of Galileo (IRE) with %3DRegal Empress %28IRE%29 

This is the not so good as the Montjeu line, if I'm reading it correctly, and this would represent a lot of stallions who I'd consider, e.g. Milan

I can't seem to find any Sires by Alleged (for Flemensfirth and Shantou) or even any Monsun's (Shirocco, Getaway etc..) 
http://www.truenicks.com/free-repor...r=8946607&mareName=%3DRegal+Empress+%28IRE%29


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

@*EliRose* Mating of Galileo (IRE) with %3DRegal Empress %28IRE%29 

This is the not so good as the Montjeu line, if I'm reading it correctly, and this would represent a lot of stallions who I'd consider, e.g. Milan

I can't seem to find any Sires by Alleged (for Flemensfirth and Shantou) or even any Monsun's (Shirocco, Getaway etc..)

Though, I wonder if there's a problem of sample size with Presenting - e.g they may be taking Racing Age Offspring as 2yo, whereas in practice it's really 4yo for any Presenting being he's 100% National Hunt - the report Camelot / Regal Empress has only 28% starters / foals of racing age

so going back to the dam there isn't much difference between the Montjeu and the Saddler's Wells lines,

Mating of Galileo (IRE) with %3DGlen Empress %28IRE%29

Mating of Camelot (GB) with %3DGlen Empress %28IRE%29


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

You know I like Milan - a very different horse to Fame and Glory in that he's a much more compact animal, short backed, a real pocket rocket sort
He might compliment your mare better - though you're breeding for National Hunt and they do love a rangey horse


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