# Losing Faith in the Horse World



## HowClever (Feb 16, 2010)

I think Parelli has become far too "commercialised" I guess. The mind set of a lot of the followers is very much cult like. There are some ideas that I think are fantastic. They do not work for all horses though. I think the best horsemen/women are those that watch many different trainers and learn from them all, and of course a good dose of common sense works too!


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

FlitterBug said:


> , they could see that every horse out there was saying F U!
> 
> I know this has been done to death, but it really bothers me how an accomplished athlete of a horse can be ignored and sloppy mediocrity can be awarded by the masses. Will people ever see that there is a difference between obedience and correctness? .


Had to leave the first part. Gave me a laugh.

People can't relate if you are too good. The masses can relate to ignorant sloopy handling. They feel they can aspire to this level. The dressage horse was way out of their league, a level they can't realistically acheive.

If you are too good people hate you. You want to appeal to the crowd be mediocre. I found this out by being in front of many a crowd.


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## FlitterBug (May 28, 2009)

Thank you RiosDad, I always try to see things from the other point of view. However, I was making the same mistake that I correct in others. I was looking at the material aspect of it, thinking "who the heck cares if I can do stupid tricks with my horse". I was missing the mental aspect behind it of being intimidated by something that you don't understand. *slaps wrist and opens eyes*

I guess its easy for people to comprehend animals and tricks, so its easy for them to strive towards, giving them at least some sense of control when they have little understanding of the animal that they are working with. It gives them a rule book, a game plan, a goal. It is something that people are already conditioned to work towards. I guess you always have to break something before you appreciate the work that it takes to fix it.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

I've never seen any of what you described....except for the occasional brand new Level 1 students, but certainly not from any Instructors I've ever seen. You don't just see brace in the Parelli circle, I've been to MANY events (non-parelli) and have been disgusted at the things I've seen.


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## FlitterBug (May 28, 2009)

I'm sorry Spirithorse, but I saw what I describe in things that you have posted. I have seen poor demonstrations of disciplines in all levels of the horse world, but I've seen what I describe in the horses in horses at all levels of the Parelli system. Even if the horse learns to lose the look of aggravation, the body never lies, even in the horses I've seen Pat and Linda themselves on.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

FlitterBug said:


> I guess its easy for people to comprehend animals and tricks, so its easy for them to strive towards,


I use to put on animal trick shows, 2 a week for almost 12 years. I have been there. Do I miss it?? Not in the least.

I see the the tricks people are teaching their horses and all I see is a bunch of circus clowns, nothing more. It has nothing to do with riding a horse, bonding with a horse. I see unhappy horses. Horses are not made to do tricks, they are more noble then that. To reduce them to clowns is a sin against nature. And don't come back at me with the bonding crap.
I have been around too long for nonsense. But to the crowd that can't ride, can't teach a horse to do what it was made to do then stick to tricks, make a clown of a noble animal.


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## Madyson (Aug 27, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> I see the the tricks people are teaching their horses and all I see is a bunch of circus clowns, nothing more. It has nothing to do with riding a horse, bonding with a horse. I see unhappy horses. Horses are not made to do tricks, they are more noble then that. To reduce them to clowns is a sin against nature. And don't come back at me with the bonding crap.
> I have been around too long for nonsense. But to the crowd that can't ride, can't teach a horse to do what it was made to do then stick to tricks, make a clown of a noble animal.


That's so true.

People need to stop thinking of the horse as a source of tricks and entertainment, and start thinking of them as the beautiful, intelligent animal they are. It honestly disgusts me to see what has become of the *majority* of the horse world today.

I also agree with you, from your first post of this topic, when you said "If you are too good people hate you." I have experienced that so much. I've been one of the 'higher' level kids at a few of the barns I've been to, and I've certainly been hated by others - particularly those who I'm younger than. But the important thing for me to keep in mind is to focus on my horse and I, and not the others.


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## thunderhooves (Aug 9, 2009)

FlitterBug said:


> I'm sorry Spirithorse, but I saw what I describe in things that you have posted. I have seen poor demonstrations of disciplines in all levels of the horse world, but I've seen what I describe in the horses in horses at all levels of the Parelli system. Even if the horse learns to lose the look of aggravation, the body never lies, even in the horses I've seen Pat and Linda themselves on.


Spirithorse, that's because you will do and say whatever it takes to protect Parelli, even putting blame on other disciplines.
Parelli sucks, in MHO!
Does Nautural Horsemanship suck? Nope, not at all, if used properly! Parelli just got so overrated and for the good of money, not the horses. Spirithorse, your horse may have been greatly affected in a good way with Parelli, but a lot aren't, and you need to accept that just because it's worked for you doesn;t mean every thing Parelli does is awesome.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Good post. And a huge reason why I think NH has gone down the crapper so fast. I have nothing against true NH - I find it fascinating and I implement many elements of it in my own training programs. The old school teachers had it right.

The Parelli's are marketing genuis' first and horse trainers second. They managed to take something people have been doing for years, and market it with so much fanfare it's just turned into another sham of a "discipline". It's reached the point where you can literally "fake it" with your horse, and the people watching don't know any better because the non-horse crowd laps it up like beer at a hockey game. So many people think it's SO cool, they rush into it, and just because their horse is half-assed paying attention and doing what they're asking, they think they're big trainers now.

Non-horse people don't know anything about something like Dressage. They can't relate to it. We had Elaine give a demonstration at Morris Stampede last year, and there were idiots in the crowd actually booing her and making comments about what a waste of time it was. And yet people go BANANAS when one of those "Buffalo Bill" shows comes out with a cowboy doing crazy tricks and stunts on his circus trained horse. It's not that I'm not impressed, it's cool, but I bet it took that guy 1% of the time to train that horse as it did for Elaine to train Icarus to the point he's at.

It all boils down to the non-horse crowd which fuels an industry like racing because people don't get it. Parelli has done such a fantastic job marketing itself to the non-horse crowd, it's fuelled like a fire because people equate the cute pony doing tricks to their cute dog doing tricks and think it's amazing that a 1,000lb animal can do that, never understanding how technically uncomplex it is compared to most disciplines.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Spirithorse said:


> I've never seen any of what you described....except for the occasional brand new Level 1 students, but certainly not from any Instructors I've ever seen. You don't just see brace in the Parelli circle, I've been to MANY events (non-parelli) and have been disgusted at the things I've seen.


I saw what she described in YOUR video!


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## thunderhooves (Aug 9, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> I saw what she described in YOUR video!


Nahahaha! Where's the video?


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

I do not protect everything Parelli says. Their method of shoeing their horses is ridiculous IMO and I do not support it at all. I tell people flat out I do not support that. I support their training because I know it works. Regardless of what others think. 

Oh and Kevin, you should have seen my horse when I first got him. He was stiff as a board, short strided, wouldn't come over his back and couldn't pick up a correct lead to save his life. Plus his teeth were very out of balance and had been overfloated. However I feel no need to justify myself to you, or anyone else.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

Spirithorse said:


> I do not protect everything Parelli says. Their method of shoeing their horses is ridiculous IMO and I do not support it at all. I tell people flat out I do not support that. I support their training because I know it works. Regardless of what others think.
> 
> Oh and Kevin, you should have seen my horse when I first got him. He was stiff as a board, short strided, wouldn't come over his back and couldn't pick up a correct lead to save his life. Plus his teeth were very out of balance and had been overfloated. However I feel no need to justify myself to you, or anyone else.


 Can i tell you a secret? Its not parellis way, he never came up with ANYTHING, other then the prices. He has turned NH into a compelete circus. Parelli just finds something and advertises it saying he made it and its his...then he mixes it up and turns it into levels, and turns it into a weird program, so that the fact or technique he found ends up so twisted everyone thinks he is a genuis. 
there were people doing NH with their horses wayyyyyy before parelli, hes no genuis, hes just a good advertiser. 
I dont hate him, im just tired of people being in such aw at him. he hasnt actually done anything special, theres hundreds of other trainers that do the same thing as him, they just arent as famous and they dont turn it into a show. :lol:


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

The Parelli program started out (years and years ago) as a decent program for newer or inexperienced people to _start_ to learn how to read a horse and understand them a little better. However, it has evolved into this circus act with a big price tag. It is not about truely understanding your horse and accomplishing harmony so much as it is about seeing how many tricks you can get your horse to do and how impressive they look to people that know even less than you do. I am a long way from an expert but I have a pretty decent start. Most of what I know, I learned from my Dad, who successfully trained show and non-show horses for decades in many disciplines from reining, working cow horse, WP, roping, trail, and even trained a jumper or hunter here and there. He can turn out a calm horse that will win a junior reining class in 60 or sometimes 30 days if the horse has a good mind and sound body. Many years ago, he was asked to put on a 'clinic' so that people could know how he accomplished his "amazing feats of horsemanship". He talked to a crowded arena for about an hour and afterward, many of the people came up to him and called him liar and fraud because he had wasted their precious time. He didn't try to sell gimicks, he didn't say "Get this halter and lead and you will succeed". He simply talked about his philosophy and how he really did things. He told them that you can ride a horse the first day of training and teach them to neckrein and sidepass in a week, help them to collect themselves and move properly in less than a month if you just learn how to read them and push them just a little bit. You don't need 30 days of groundwork before introducing the saddle to build a connection with your horse and pushing them out of their comfort zone won't hurt them or freak them out.

People who don't understand horses want to believe that they are terribly complicated creatures because they want a reason why they don't understand them. They want to believe that training a horse has to be this big complex mathematical equation that has an answer 3 pages long and takes months to solve even the simplest part of the equation. In most disciplines, it will take years to have a horse completely trained but you can bet that 99% of the trainers in those disciplines don't spend a month just letting a horse run circles at liberty in the roundpen or make them jump over barrels with their noses in the air and back hollowed out. People want to be involved in something that makes them feel like they are part of the superior group and because they don't understand the true mechanics of the horse, they are drawn to the flashiest display. Kinda the same reason that ******** are drawn to beer cans and bass boats. All "OOOOH, pretty.......shiny" on the outside but they don't stop to think that inside its nothing more than fiberglass or brain cell killer. And of course, the old understanding that the most expensive thing absolutely _must_ be the best thing because it's the most expensive, right? Their whole program is teaching novice riders how to "train" their horses but 99.9999% of the time, novice riders have no business training a horse to do anything. I had been riding for 15 years on different kinds and levels of horses before I jumped in and trained my first one from scratch. And 'lo and behold, I screwed it up. I still screw up occasionally but I am learning *under the watchful eye of someone who knows **** well what I need to be doing and can correct me right then and there if I am doing it wrong. *That isn't something you get from a DVD or a chat room and that's why so many of those horses aren't travelling correctly or responding correctly. If a problem pops up and isn't discussed in the little TV training session, it's just "In just 3 weeks and for just 29.95, we'll have a DVD out to you that will help you solve said problem". They fail to mention that if the solutions on that DVD don't fix the problem there are 3 or 4 more DVDs that are guaranteed to work.

They count on catching the eye of the ignorant and uninformed with fancy tricks and matching tack and coaxing them to spend nearly every penny they earn on gadgets and gimmicks and DVD's with a guarantee that they will become master horsemen. I have browsed the Parelli site a couple times just trying to figure out what the big deal is and for the prices they charge to get all the stuff it takes to create a bracey, unbalanced horse, I could probably send a horse to train with Shawn Flarida and get back a world champion reining horse (in half the time).


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

thunderhooves said:


> Nahahaha! Where's the video?


You ask and it shall be granted!!!
http://www.horseforum.com/natural-horsemanship/videos-me-arie-52580/


I have the highest respect for anyone with the courage to post a video of themselves for anyone to see. I don't know if I would have the guts to do that if I knew how.


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## thunderhooves (Aug 9, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> *You ask and it shall be granted!!!*
> http://www.horseforum.com/natural-horsemanship/videos-me-arie-52580/
> 
> 
> I have the highest respect for anyone with the courage to post a video of themselves for anyone to see. I don't know if I would have the guts to do that *if I knew how.*


Can I have $100? lol
"if you knew how", haha. I don't know that I would eithe, but......


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## Gillian (Aug 2, 2008)

Smrobs, exactly.

I'm with you guys 100%. I have gone to a Parelli clinic, I've ridden and worked with people who "trained" horses using Parelli, and I'm not ignorant to their methods. They just don't give you any true results. You have a trick pony and nothing more. You simply cannot compare it to any of the other riding disciplines. You're not forming a magical bond with your horse, and it really means squat that you can ride you horse bareback and bridelless. I can get on my horse and dink around bareback in a halter, or even with a rope around his neck and I don't claim to be a trainer. This method of "training" isn't teaching the horse anything but to trot around with their heads in the clouds and is ****ing them off or letting them get away with murder.

At the clinic I really was not impressed by Pat or Linda, or the "results" they got. Every horse was bracing, pinning their ears, and looked bored stiff. Not to mention the muscling in all the wrong places.

I could probably ramble forever, but the point is I have not seen a horse trained by the Parelli system that you could _pay_ me to take.


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## thunderhooves (Aug 9, 2009)

How do they get muscles in the wrong places? PIC?


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## Gillian (Aug 2, 2008)

^From traveling around hollow. Basically, unbalanced.
Obviously that's not just Parelli, that could be from improper riding in any discipline.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

FlitterBug said:


> I know this has been done to death, but it really bothers me *how an accomplished athlete of a horse can be ignored and sloppy mediocrity can be awarded by the masses. *Will people ever see that there is a difference between obedience and correctness? I have seen many horses physically crippled through that program, made insecure in everything but their methods, yet the people keep coming in force.


That's what's called correct PR (and commercials).  

Plus lots of people who come to watch such events are beginner riders (if riders at all), so often they don't see (and understand) the difference. And I can understand that. To me dressage is very boring to watch (unless it's a very high level music performance). Sorry, no offense to anyone! It IS useful (and in fact I went to the clinic with the dressage trainer this weekend), but if you don't look for something specific but just came to the event to have some fun and relax it's just not fun to watch. So only people who truly want to learn something goes there. I've seen at the Expos too number of times. On other hand all those NH performances are generally fun to watch (if you don't notice the tense horses with pinned ears of course). I'm not saying ALL "NH" performances are like that (clumsy), but number of them are. Some (Stacy Westfall or Craig Cameron would be good examples) are indeed very beneficial and horses look like they enjoy what they are doing.


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## thunderhooves (Aug 9, 2009)

Isnt NH *for* the horse? Not to make the rider feel natural? if so, why do the horses look upset many times? Hmm....
If you really wanna be as close to natural as you can get without releasing htem into the wild, just hop on breback and naked with just a rope on their neck.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

I think this is where we, as horse people, need to use our own heads. I think there is something to learn from everybody out there...from their successes and their mistakes. I think it's good to get into the psychology of the horse and know what is driving the horse and work off of that. I do think a lot of the methods of Parelli and Goodnight are plain Silly and basically done to get attention and make money. Have any of you seen how much Julie Goodnight's site charges for that silly flag on the stick? I know someone who uses one of those and all her horses pretty much act like she is a major joke, you can see it in their eyes as they walk all over her. There is no one way that works for everybody in the whole world.

I think a TRUE horse person would want to benefit those who want to learn for the sake of them as well as their horses, not make money off of them. I think those of us who have been in the horse world all need to use our heads and when we see a clinic or video.. think for ourselves with our own brains on what parts are actually beneficial to our circumstances and which parts we know are complete crap. Just because someone has made themselves famous by selling 80 dollar dressage sticks with yellow grocery bags on them, doesn't mean they are the messiah of the horse world and we should bow down to them.....but I don't think they should be ignored altogether either because there are some small things they teach that do make sense.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

thunderhooves said:


> Isnt NH *for* the horse? Not to make the rider feel natural? if so, why do the horses look upset many times? Hmm....
> If you really wanna be as close to natural as you can get without releasing htem into the wild, just hop on breback and naked with just a rope on their neck.


 NH is different for a lot of people, some people think its about being natural, Ive always been taught its just about understanding the way the horse thinks and their body language, and working on my body language so that i can tell my horse to stand there, and not come near me, or anything else i want her to do. Ive always been taught NH is about learning to 'speak' the horses language, rather then to expect them to learn ours. 

When horses start doing tricks and stuff, well, you cant really call that NH anymore,can you? because horses dont do tricks naturally by themselves.:wink:


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

Cinnys Whinny said:


> I think this is where we, as horse people, need to use our own heads. I think there is something to learn from everybody out there...from their successes and their mistakes. I think it's good to get into the psychology of the horse and know what is driving the horse and work off of that. I do think a lot of the methods of Parelli and Goodnight are plain Silly and basically done to get attention and make money. Have any of you seen how much Julie Goodnight's site charges for that silly flag on the stick? I know someone who uses one of those and all her horses pretty much act like she is a major joke, you can see it in their eyes as they walk all over her. There is no one way that works for everybody in the whole world.
> 
> I think a TRUE horse person would want to benefit those who want to learn for the sake of them as well as their horses, not make money off of them. I think those of us who have been in the horse world all need to use our heads and when we see a clinic or video.. think for ourselves with our own brains on what parts are actually beneficial to our circumstances and which parts we know are complete crap. Just because someone has made themselves famous by selling 80 dollar dressage sticks with yellow grocery bags on them, doesn't mean they are the messiah of the horse world and we should bow down to them.....but I don't think they should be ignored altogether either because there are some small things they teach that do make sense.


 oooo i love your post! tehehe i have one of those 'silly flags on a stick' i made mine, haha i got a piece of cloth and tied it to the end of a sawdered off metal pole with a handle. haha it looks exactly like the ones ive seen people pay 80 dollars for. I think it has to be used properly though, the hroses must *respect it, and when i say respect i do not mean fear, because getting respect and fear mixed up is silly, they are compeletly diffferent things 
The thing wrong with parelli is he creates robots. robots who follow him like little clones, and cant think for themselves, which IMO is one of the most important things in the horse world


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

ridergirl23 said:


> When horses start doing tricks and stuff, well, you cant really call that NH anymore,can you? *because horses dont do tricks naturally by themselves*.:wink:


I think it depends on horse. Jemma made people laughing at the clinic yesterday by rolling those huge scary balls around the arena (it was dressage clinic, not the trick or NH one). I was mounted, but gave a free rein and let her play while we had a break. I did not teach her, she was just having fun by herself.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

ridergirl23 said:


> oooo i love your post! tehehe i have one of those 'silly flags on a stick' i made mine, haha i got a piece of cloth and tied it to the end of a sawdered off metal pole with a handle. haha it looks exactly like the ones ive seen people pay 80 dollars for. I think it has to be used properly though, the hroses must *respect it, and when i say respect i do not mean fear, because getting respect and fear mixed up is silly, they are compeletly diffferent things


I agree with you on the flag respect...but I also think some horses can respect poeple without the flag....like I said, different things work in different situations and I think that's hat makes anybody a teacher....I think there is no wrong or right, it is what works to make you and your horse a successful team.

The person I was talking about...I'm always having to pull her horses off of her, they almost seem to like to show off to people how NOT in control their owner is ha ha.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> I think it depends on horse. Jemma made people laughing at the clinic yesterday by rolling those huge scary balls around the arena (it was dressage clinic, not the trick or NH one). I was mounted, but gave a free rein and let her play while we had a break. I did not teach her, she was just having fun by herself.


 Haha that sounds like it would be funny to see! 
im talking about tricks like, sitting down, or laying down on command or something. 
Horses definitly have a sense of fun, I wouldnt really count that as a trick, more jsut the horse having some fun
my idea of a trick is , making them bow or something, which i have seen lots of horses enjoy doing... because they know they get treats after :wink:


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

Cinnys Whinny said:


> I agree with you on the flag respect...but I also think some horses can respect poeple without the flag....like I said, different things work in different situations and I think that's hat makes anybody a teacher....I think there is no wrong or right, it is what works to make you and your horse a successful team.
> 
> The person I was talking about...I'm always having to pull her horses off of her, they almost seem to like to show off to people how NOT in control their owner is ha ha.


 oh thats funny how you say that! I was going to add that toomy post! haha 
I would only use the flag i think when i had an extremely agressive horse and I needed something extra to really get my point across. But in the end i think your horses neeed to respect you wihtout the flag, because can you imagine how annoying it would be to have to carry a flag around everywhere with you?! :shock:


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

What one calls 'tricks' someone else calls preparation. For example standing on a pedestal. If the horse can't do that successfully he might have issues getting into a trailer. If a horse can't tolorate having a ball bounced around he might have the tendency to spook at a big stimulus, say out on the trail. We prepare the horse to be calm in crazy situations and to look to us for guidence and not to freak out. 

I recently worked with a horse who would. not. get in the trailer, no matter what the owner did. I was her last resort because she needed to get this horse to the trainer's barn....this was also going to be the first time the horse had been hauled, ever. She was skeptical because I do Parelli, but she had no other options. The first day I worked on basic yields (FQ, HQ, back up, come forward), backing over a pole, standing on things, getting the horse to go between me and objects to test how claustrophobic he was....after all the preperation we went to the trailer and after awhile he was loaded. However I wasn't satisfied with his confidence level inside the trailer, so I stopped at a good point and was going to continue the next day. Day two was a very quick refresher, also adding in a bit of circling, and soon he was loading and unloading (which was a huge problem for him) confidently. I then tested our rapport by turning him loose at Liberty to see if he would load for me and he did from 25 ft. away from the trailer. I told the owner he was ready to haul and he acted like an old pro in the trailer, stood well to be tied and everything. He unloaded beautifully at the trainer's barn. So all those "tricks" and "silly things" paid off BIG TIME....there is something to it if one is willing to look and be open.


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## kmacdougall (Feb 12, 2010)

ridergirl23 said:


> Haha that sounds like it would be funny to see!
> im talking about tricks like, sitting down, or laying down on command or something.
> Horses definitly have a sense of fun, I wouldnt really count that as a trick, more jsut the horse having some fun
> my idea of a trick is , making them bow or something, which i have seen lots of horses enjoy doing... because they know they get treats after :wink:


Honza Blaha's horses do tricks.. but when you watch him, it seems more like they do it just to make him happy rather then because he makes them.
For the most part I think the whole NH movement is a crock of garbage. I'm not interested in training a trick pony. I'm interested in creating a horse who works well with me under saddle. My horses are for riding. Not performing circus tricks.
I do like Honza though, maybe that's because he's not over marketed and as far as I know he doesn't want everyone to buy some stupid carrot stick.. Even so, I don't use his methods or really follow him at all. I just think he's pretty decent. And good to look at..


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

Interesting thread, Flitterbug, thank you for posting it. Well worth reading.

When I first got into riding/horsemanship seriously, at around 10-11 years old, I thought that Parelli was the coolest thing on earth. Of course, that was about 10 years ago, before the commercialism became what it is today. Now I'm older and at least a little wiser (I like to hope :lol. I took lessons for years (probably should invest in some again), and got busy enough with the lesson horses at several barns that I never really got into the Parelli system, at least not beyond reading the series of articles _Young Rider_ ran at the time covering the seven games in some detail. I bought my own horse eventually, and we rode, and did okay. He was a bit nervous, and I got to where I would ride "on alert", waiting for a spook, and I lost my confidence to a degree. I still get a little nervous, and catch myself in alert mode, but it's getting easier, and that's off topic. To make a long story short, I ran into the Clinton Anderson system and used a few of the groundwork and desensitizing exercises. They were really helpful, improved my confidence, and without all the pomp and pageantry that went with the Parelli system. Of course, that's changed now, and CA's stuff is going the same route as Parelli's, IMO. Before I drank too much of anyone's Kool-Aid, a friend sent a box of horse stuff to my sister and me, including a VHS tape of the Atlanta Olympic Dressage Freestyles. I fell in love and wore the tape out.

Yes, there is a major difference between Parelli and Classical Dressage, and it's a matter of substance. I have to work to learn good dressage principles, and progress is slow without an instructor every step of the way, but nothing worth knowing was ever easy to learn.The old school natural horsemanship had/has a lot to offer, and almost all of it is compatible with the ideals of classical dressage; a calm, willing, obedient horse without physically or mentally abusive techniques. To quote Dennis Reis, with No Dust. I stand by my system of getting my hands on all the info I can, and using what appeals to my common sense. I still use NH groundwork every now and again, but once I have basic control in the saddle I apply what I know of classical dressage. Time will tell if I've done that correctly. :lol:


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

thunderhooves said:


> Isnt NH *for* the horse? Not to make the rider feel natural? if so, why do the horses look upset many times? Hmm....
> If you really wanna be as close to natural as you can get without releasing htem into the wild, just hop on breback and naked with just a rope on their neck.


*Be prepared for chaffing!!!*


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## thunderhooves (Aug 9, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> *Be prepared for chaffing!!!*


At first i didn't get it... but I do now!lol! But why, kevin, would I get chaffing if I decide to wear my Natural Horsemanship Parelli Underwear?


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

omg hahaha are there legite parelli underwear?!?!?! oh dear. haha hmmm... maybe if i get some i will be a pro horseman.....


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

Spirithorse said:


> What one calls 'tricks' someone else calls preparation. For example standing on a pedestal. If the horse can't do that successfully he might have issues getting into a trailer. If a horse can't tolorate having a ball bounced around he might have the tendency to spook at a big stimulus, say out on the trail. We prepare the horse to be calm in crazy situations and to look to us for guidence and not to freak out.
> 
> I recently worked with a horse who would. not. get in the trailer, no matter what the owner did. I was her last resort because she needed to get this horse to the trainer's barn....this was also going to be the first time the horse had been hauled, ever. She was skeptical because I do Parelli, but she had no other options. The first day I worked on basic yields (FQ, HQ, back up, come forward), backing over a pole, standing on things, getting the horse to go between me and objects to test how claustrophobic he was....after all the preperation we went to the trailer and after awhile he was loaded. However I wasn't satisfied with his confidence level inside the trailer, so I stopped at a good point and was going to continue the next day. Day two was a very quick refresher, also adding in a bit of circling, and soon he was loading and unloading (which was a huge problem for him) confidently. I then tested our rapport by turning him loose at Liberty to see if he would load for me and he did from 25 ft. away from the trailer. I told the owner he was ready to haul and he acted like an old pro in the trailer, stood well to be tied and everything. He unloaded beautifully at the trainer's barn. So all those "tricks" and "silly things" paid off BIG TIME....there is something to it if one is willing to look and be open.


I think that these 'tricks' all have a time and place, and to a certain extent (some more than others) they do test the faith that your horse has in you as a strong leader and might illustrate what areas you needed to work on; however, in Parelli it seems to be that the tricks are the end, the pinnacle of training, where as what they should be is just another stepping stone to get where you want to be.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> You ask and it shall be granted!!!
> http://www.horseforum.com/natural-horsemanship/videos-me-arie-52580/


 I only watched 2 videos but I didn't see an unhappy horse.


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## Jolly Badger (Oct 26, 2009)

Spirithorse said:


> What one calls 'tricks' someone else calls preparation. For example standing on a pedestal. If the horse can't do that successfully he might have issues getting into a trailer. If a horse can't tolorate having a ball bounced around he might have the tendency to spook at a big stimulus, say out on the trail. We prepare the horse to be calm in crazy situations and to look to us for guidence and not to freak out.


To me, that's sounds more like bubble-wrapping the horse. . .and I have seen way too many Parellites get so concerned about the meaning behind everything that their horse does during "preparation" that they NEVER challenge the horse (or themselves) to go beyond that.

Want to teach your horse to get into the trailer? Put the pedestal away and start teaching him to get into a trailer. 

Want to teach your horse not to spook at something on a trail ride? Start trail riding him. 

Want to teach your horse to look to you for guidance? Put the sticks and balls and barrels away and start _being_ a leader. 

Back to the issue addressed in the OP, I completely agree. It's sad to see that the truely accomplished, competent riders and horses get such a small audience at the horse expos. Meanwhile, the stands are packed full of starry-eyed spectators to see their heroes "play games" with irritated, bored-looking horses. 

They won't sit and watch a jumping clinic, where the focus is on consistency and distances or otherwise refining the ability of horse and rider over fences. 

But, they will cheer and ooh and ahh while some other follower of their chosen NH guru makes a choppy, horrible, hollow-backed jump over a spotted barrel. Because, of course, that somehow signifies a beautiful bond and partnership between horse and rider. Meh.:-|


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Jolly Badger.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

Jolly Badger said:


> To me, that's sounds more like bubble-wrapping the horse. . .and I have seen way too many Parellites get so concerned about the meaning behind everything that their horse does during "preparation" that they NEVER challenge the horse (or themselves) to go beyond that.
> 
> Want to teach your horse to get into the trailer? Put the pedestal away and start teaching him to get into a trailer.
> 
> ...


 agreed.
haha i get my horse to do stupid stuff like bouncing a big bouncy ball off her back because i think its fun, haha and i want to try and play horse soccer. And Rena likes it because she knows she gets plenty of treats and doesnt actually have to do any work in the meantime (haha the lazy little horse!) but to do it because the horse might not like getting in the trailer? well, my horse better get her a** in the trailer, if she doesnt want to go in the trailer im not going to mess around with getting her to step up on a pedistal, I am going to get my game face on and get her in that trailer.


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## kmacdougall (Feb 12, 2010)

churumbeque said:


> I only watched 2 videos but I didn't see an unhappy horse.


I watched the first minute of the barrel video and I think I can speak for the horse, he seemed to be saying "frig off and stop making me do pointless stuff."


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

I'm sorry to be horrible but I aloso watched about a minute and a half of spirithorses barrel vid and this was the post I put on that thread:

I m sorry I have to be honest, I watched the one where you are riding bareback and it was like watching paint dry. I couldn't watch it all because it was so boring. You and the horse wander up to the barrel and the horse goes awww maybe, I suppose and then grudgingly, half assed manages to lift himself over it. You wander back up to it again and the horse has a sniff and goes, nah cant be arsed and you go, OK you don't want to do it you don't have to. You meander him back to it again and he says, oh theres a tractor that is so much more interesting than the barrel I'll wander over and look at that, and you go OK lets do that.

If what you expect to get out of your horse is not much, your achievements are undeniable. Your horse is definitely very relaxed and happy having a rider with zero expectations of it. I know I am being rude I just hate to see such a lovely horse languishing so badly, he looked slovenly and it makes me sad. 

Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/natural-horsemanship/videos-me-arie-52580/page2/#ixzz0mATmF


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

thunderhooves said:


> At first i didn't get it... but I do now!lol! But why, kevin, would I get chaffing if I decide to wear *my Natural Horsemanship Parelli Underwear*?


Wow! Those are good! But why are they red? X-mas kind or something? :lol:


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Jolly Badger said:


> To me, that's sounds more like bubble-wrapping the horse. . .and I have seen way too many Parellites get so concerned about the meaning behind everything that their horse does during "preparation" that they NEVER challenge the horse (or themselves) to go beyond that.
> 
> Want to teach your horse to get into the trailer? Put the pedestal away and start teaching him to get into a trailer.
> 
> ...


Great post!


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Jolly Badger said:


> Want to teach your horse to get into the trailer? Put the pedestal away and start teaching him to get into a trailer.
> 
> *Want to teach your horse not to spook at something on a trail ride? Start trail riding him. *
> 
> Want to teach your horse to look to you for guidance? Put the sticks and balls and barrels away and start _being_ a leader.


I somewhat disagree. If you say go to the competitive trail ride very often there are obstacles there you can NOT find on just usual trail ride. The good example is taking a newspaper from mail box. My horse FREAKED OUT even though I've been riding her a lot on trails with lots of scary things. That's when practicing such things in ring would come in place.


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## Wahoo23829 (Apr 15, 2010)

"commercialised" is putting it mildly 

I bought the Natural Horemenship last fall along with 2 other books 
one of Clinton's and the 3rd by Tom Ainslie.

The Clinton book was ok and readable - and I love his shows on RFDTV

The Tom Ainslie book "The body Language of Horses" is by far the best Horse book I have EVER read.

The Parelli was UNREADABLE with all the propaganda BS......He talks the same way too with all the lo la le crap and the po pa pe pi .....if you in the upper 10% I am sure you KNOW what I mean.


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## HowClever (Feb 16, 2010)

I have read the Parelli Horsemanship book, if its the western horseman one you are talking about?
And I agree that I found it very difficult to finish. Mostly because of the constant repetition of the same sentences over and over again.

I think, like what has been said before, Parelli appeals to those that view it as achievable. Parelli is geniously marketed so any horse owner can believe that they can reach extraordinary levels, with only a few simple concepts. Don't get me wrong here, some of the concepts are quite good, and I will openly admit that there are things that I use with my horses which are seen by the masses as Parelli concepts (despite the fact that nothing he does is a new thing, just better marketed). I will even admit that before I delved a little deeper in to reading/watching/listening to every trainer I could get my hands on, that I would say I used Parelli methods. Since opening my eyes a little though, I can honestly say that I do not follow one particular trainer anymore. I would much rather pull together a full repertoire from as many good trainers as I can.

It can be intimidating to be confronted with a fantastic horseman/woman who in just a few moments can shoot you down a few pegs and tell you exactly how much you don't know! Whether it be at a clinic, or even here on the forum. There are certain members of this forum who have so much wisdom to share, and it is sad to see that often times they are brushed off, mostly due to someone being locked in to one set of training guidelines and not being willing to open their minds and soak up the knowledge of those older and wiser than themselves. 

Sorry for the mini rant!


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## Wahoo23829 (Apr 15, 2010)

western horseman - yes thats it - i was NOT saying it is not any good, just NOT for ME .....HowClever is clearly in the top 10% !


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> I somewhat disagree. If you say go to the competitive trail ride very often there are obstacles there you can NOT find on just usual trail ride. The good example is taking a newspaper from mail box. My horse FREAKED OUT even though I've been riding her a lot on trails with lots of scary things. That's when practicing such things in ring would come in place.


Kitten_Val, to continue on with what Jolly Badger said, If you want to your to get used to competitive trail ride obstacles practice competitive trail ride obstacles. :wink:


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

I have yet to understand how getting a horse to stand on a podium translates to trailer loading. As JB posted, if you want your horse to do something, practice doing that something.

I don't believe that horses can translate the training that is taught in the 7 games. Heck, whatever a horse is taught on the right side has to be taught on the left. They don't translate that mounting on the right is any different then being mounted from the left. How do you expect them to understand anything more complex. I believe the 7 games teaches obedience, nothing more.


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## FlitterBug (May 28, 2009)

Wow, thank you for all the responses. I wasn't trying to get into another bashing session, more just trying to understand why decent horsemanship was blown off for sloppy, pointless tricks. I know that to solve any problem, you have to get to the source, to me, as a trainer, the source is a poor education for many of the people that I work, coincidentally, this actual source is a common place.

As far as using tricks for preperation, I unfortunately have not witnessed the success of that. One parelli trained horse I know will stand on that podium, back over poles, and has worked through tight spaces, yet still won't load to save his life. (I am simply a witness with this case). I have found in many instances that the horse is being desensitized to only what you are putting in front of him. The person is showing more attention to the object rather than to the fact that the horse can follow you through anything. By letting the horse make the ultimate decision, you are allowing the horse to desensitize itself, but it is only doing it with the object, not in the person or the action. You don't develop a work ethic, because nothing has a meaning, there is no agenda, no reason to try harder. I hear all parelli people talk about taking their time with their horse, most of them don't get very far, and from what we saw of the competition video, they get laughed at once entering the professional field.

Someone asked about the physical aspect..... I work with physical and mental rehabilitation. I have seen horses that are destroyed in all places in the horse world. I have also seen some wonderful athletes. However, there is a trend in the way a Parelli horse travels that seems to carry through to all horses participating in the program. They emphasize too much on lateral movement when the horse has not yet learned proper flexion. The hip joint is very limited in the axial roatation and constant disengagement is too much for it, not to mention the overworking of the medial muscles through the rest of the body. Of course my horses need to know how to disengage, but I never practice it to the extent that I see in Parelli. There is a difference between "light and soft" and overly sensitive to pressure. When you get overly sensitive to pressure, its a one way communication. Just because they claim to speak the language of the horse doesn't mean that they are also listening to it. When you take away the 2 way communication through training, move the body over so often that straightness is a foreign word, and allow the horse to find comfort in patterns and obstacles instead of the leader, then your end result is a hollow catepillar of a horse that skips along in the hind end, is so insecure in its body that it has to find the comfort in what it already knows, and is consequently too physically weak to put up a huge fight. The novice horse owner thinks they hit a gold mind because they end up with a horse that does cool tricks and doesn't buck them off. The horse simply learns what crazy task they have to do to get the person to quit bugging them. 

I think that a lot of times, people set themselves up for the failure in their tasks through anticipation. I took my Mom trailriding a while ago, she has always been around my horses, which include some pretty crazy ones when they first come in, but she has never been terribly involved beyond show support and the occasional trailride. She was on my 5 yr old quarter pony. This is a pony that I got as a 3 yr old that was chasing people in the pasture and she had no problem rearing and striking at me when I didn't run from her. As we were turning down the driveway on the way home, Mom pulled the pony up to the mailbox, took out the mail and the newspaper, put it in her saddle, and walked up to me, standing about 20' in front of her. I kind of laughed as she had done what so many people "prepare" for, on a young problem pony that had never done anything of the sort, with technique that would have scored greatly on a trail class. I laughed and asked what she was doing, her reply was "I'm getting the mail, why are you laughing?" I explained to her how some people that I work with find that to be such a task, her reply was "why? Its just a mailbox." So yes, my mother who still holds onto the saddle when she trots and still takes 5 minutes to figure out how the halter goes on gave me that oh so important reminder about how people often create their own problems with their horses through anticipation. She had no idea she was coming up to an obstacle, so neither did the pony. The pony had been trained to listen to and trust the rider, so she did not question it even though it was something new. If Mom had that, "oh geez, I wonder if she will be afraid", pony would have felt "what is coming up that I should be afraid of?". I have seen this theory proven true time and time again. All of my horses go through what I ask when I ask, with the exception of one, the Parelli project horse I took on, that crazy booger will circle all day long and swing his hind end around like there is no tomorrow, but give him something new, and he loses all faith because he has lost his patterns and is use to taking forever to find a new one. He seems to think he has an opinion on the matter.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Alwaysbehind said:


> Kitten_Val, to continue on with what Jolly Badger said, If you want to your to get used to competitive trail ride obstacles practice competitive trail ride obstacles. :wink:


Ha-ha! The problem with it though you can't find some of them in our parks even if you try hard. :wink: So you have to just let it be or try to imitate them in the only place you can do whatever you want to (the ring).

I'm not arguing with what Jolly said, I agree with it. But work in ring can be very useful too.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> I'm not arguing with what Jolly said, I agree with it. But work in ring can be very useful too.



But I do not see where Jolly said do not work in the ring.

Sure ring work is very helpful. I think what Jolly is saying is if your horse needs work on opening a mail box do not practice swinging your carrot stick bag over its head, find a mail box and practice opening it. Even if it is a mail box you have set up in your ring.

Every evening when I am done hacking I get gate practice by leaving the ring on horse back. Open the gate, leave, close the gate. 

Why not walk to the end of your driveway and use that mailbox?


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Alwaysbehind said:


> Why not walk to the end of your driveway and use that mailbox?


The main reason is I don't like walking a horse on asphalt. I had Jemma slipped and fall on it and Kiara very close to be down (and it wasn't even wet). I was very scared she damaged something. The problem is our driveway is very steep as you go to the mail box, so walking down may cause a horse to slip/fall again. And I can't walk off the driveway, because we have hills on both sides.  It's really hard to explain, but it's just very unsafe to walk the horse there (and in fact not fun to drive the trailer either). So the ring is the only option in my case (OR take the mail box on trail with me, but that's just too much :wink: ).


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## Poco1220 (Apr 6, 2010)

I completely agree with you guys on this one! Have I read Parelli's books? Yep, they're on the shelf right next to the John Lyons, Monty Roberts, Mary Twelveponies, and Buck Brannaman (well maybe not Buck, that book usually follows me around the house). Point is there is not a single one of those books I agree 100% with on every situation. You have to use common sense and take what you need from them, add in your own knowledge, a little experimentation, and find out what works for YOU! 

You can stand a horse on a pedastal a million times but with most horses the fear of loading is not all from the step up, it's from the scents of prior horses, the lack of space, the darkness inside, etc. Great, you got the horse to load in the trailer AFTER playing parelli for three days... did if ever occur to you that the first time they tried loading they all ASSUMED the horse wouldn't load and their lack of confidence was felt by him. The last time he loaded terrific, but you ASSUMED he would and he felt that too. They can tell how we're feeling just as we should them so use those emotions to your advantage once in a while.

As far as the mailbox thing, yes take a mailbox and bring it into your arena, play with it all the time there's no problem there! That's your sport, you need that practice to be able to complete. That is no different than a cross country jumper having ground poles or small jumps in their arena, it's just a part of the process. 

The big point is that waving carrot sticks, flags, running around barrels, whatever... is not helping you in any REAL situations. It's okay to have fun with your horse, but you're not forming any kind of bond with your animal if you're ****ing it off all the time!


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## bellatink89 (Apr 26, 2010)

IMO i hate linda parelli and dont like pat. when it comes to natural horsemanship - and just great horsemanship in general - study tom and bill dorrance. thats where "they" learned from - and have kind of massacred the dorrance's way in the process. its really sad. im trying to stay off this NH board.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

*yin-yang phenom of PP*

I think that the Program has Light & Darkness all rolled into one package: Spirithorse's account of getting horse into trailer w/out trauma _when no one else could _is a great example of P's Light! * Note*:The reason preparation is done w/ tasks other than the trailer is that the horse "learns" that she's a good leader, first & foremost.! Wild horses don't hesitate to follow their proven alpha over _all_ unfamiliar terrain! I'm happy that this horse was taken out of his "trailer-loading" misery. The Darkness: 1) overpriced everything 2) glossing over mistakes with horses, that even Pat (!) has made, & the mistake's mainly 3) too much pressure/not enough release 4) messed-up hooves on their horses as reported by a natural hoof-care visitor: pads & eggbutt shoes on Remmer(!) 5) PP gospel's always been that "a bit's_ not_ about control", then we're not to notice any inconsistency with his introduction of the cradle bridle, which gives pain in a million places, if needed, to control one's horse. _Now, _Linda can ride Allure, as she's testified. 6) the "sit on your balance point" "back from the withers" directive: This might make it easier for _you _to be comfy on your horse, but it's not a deep seat which enables you to be at-one in the horse's energy. Notice Pat bareback, too: he's right up against the withers where he should be. I don't like to get confused with a mentor, so I've decided to go back to the Dorrances also, because they're the font from which Buck, Pat, etc. drank from to begin with.


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## dantexeventer (Jul 11, 2009)

There are parts of Parelli that work. Those parts are the 'common sense' parts that a man very eager for money has slapped his name on. The rest is a bunch of crap - as evidenced not only by the legions of horses I've seen with no manners and no clue, but also by that lovely video of LP that surfaced recently. Ugh.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Probably the best thing that has come from NH is that people know there is a better way to load a horse that doesn't want to be loaded. Years ago it was common practice to load a horse with ropes and pulleys and 5 strong men to push and pull on it. Now st least people have an option and can choose to train the horse to get on the trailer rather than force it on. 

The process that Spirithorse outlined is a really good way to train a horse to load. It's the way I would do it if I had a horse that didn't want to load and I had the time (if it was my horse I would MAKE the time) but it was not invented by PP. Ray Hunt was loading troubled horses like that when PP was still learning how to tighten a cinch and Ray wasn't the first one either but he never claimed to be the inventor of any technique.


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## Jolly Badger (Oct 26, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> I somewhat disagree. If you say go to the competitive trail ride very often there are obstacles there you can NOT find on just usual trail ride. The good example is taking a newspaper from mail box. My horse FREAKED OUT even though I've been riding her a lot on trails with lots of scary things. That's when practicing such things in ring would come in place.


That's true. . .I don't generally run across many random mailboxes in the woods that I need to take newspapers out of.:lol: That's one "obstacle" in the CTR world that makes no sense to me. I can understand opening and closing gates, or dragging a branch/log. . .but mailboxes? On trail?

Any reason why you can't ride to the end of your driveway (or ride out to the boarding barn's mailbox) every day and get the mail? If you're on friendly terms with neighbors, maybe offer to pick up their mail for them as well, especially if they have a long driveway, and ride back to their house to deliver it.

Or, during the process of a trail ride, stop and break/snap branches or twigs from the horse's back, or drag a branch along with you for a distance? It's 2x as functional, because not only does it help with you and the horse's training, but it also helps keep the trails clear of debris.


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## charlicata (Jan 12, 2010)

This is a great thread. You guys keep posting! I love the threads I can learn on!


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## pieinthesky (Mar 12, 2010)

> Probably the best thing that has come from NH is that people know there is a better way to load a horse that doesn't want to be loaded. Years ago it was common practice to load a horse with ropes and pulleys and 5 strong men to push and pull on it. Now st least people have an option and can choose to train the horse to get on the trailer rather than force it on.


Thats the one thing that stuck with me from John Llyons books Ive read. I adapted his methods to what my mare responds to. She used to be a really big problem loader, now she walks right on for me.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Jolly Badger said:


> That's true. . .I don't generally run across many random mailboxes in the woods that I need to take newspapers out of.:lol: That's one "obstacle" in the CTR world that makes no sense to me. I can understand opening and closing gates, or dragging a branch/log. . .but mailboxes? On trail?


Well... I don't know actually.  I guess there are no gates on trail. Lol! At least I havnt' seen it in any park around. They have all sorts of really weird things set up for those judged trail rides, which you won't even see on trails. I agree with you though - gate would be more natural thing to do IMO. 



Jolly Badger said:


> Any reason why you can't ride to the end of your driveway (or ride out to the boarding barn's mailbox) every day and get the mail?


I can't. See my response earlier - it's pretty unsafe even to walk a horse there, and I'd never risk my (and my horse's) neck to ride there. Believe me, I thought about it! 



Jolly Badger said:


> *Or, during the process of a trail ride, stop and break/snap branches or twigs from the horse's back, or drag a branch along with you for a distance?* It's 2x as functional, because not only does it help with you and the horse's training, but it also helps keep the trails clear of debris.


Interesting enough I did it and had no problems. But when we run into that extremely noisy and scary bag you have to drag behind all horses I observed at this obstacle (may be 6 or so?) went nuts (even older ones). And all horses are trail riding horses. I guess it's something very scary about that bag. 

I don't argue at all that trail riding is the best for desensitizing the horse, all I'm trying to say is preparation in ring does help on trails as well. At least from my experience. :lol:


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## sandy2u1 (May 7, 2008)

I am not necessarily anti nor pro Parelli. One thing that does bother me about them is that they are always asking their horses for permission. I just recently watched an episode on RFDTV where they were talking about how you should ask the horse for permission to enter his stall or paddock :roll:. I found this very disturbing. Does the head mare ask for permission if she wants a drink of water and the low man on the pecking order is drinking....I think not...she makes him get out of the way because she is the boss. I feel that if I want to go in my horses stall, then I don't need his permission...same thing with riding him (minus lameness or sickness of course), if I want to ride him them I'm going to. I have seen shows where their horses look amazing though, so I don't want to criticize all of their techniques. I can see how people can easily be drawn in to the Parellis though, because when I first got Major I didn't know very much about horses and at that time they made it all seem so magical, easy to do and quick. I have learned a thing or two since then though :lol:


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

I always find it 'amusing' (in a sarcastic sense) how sometimes the best trainers seem to miss what their horses are telling them through their body language...and of course, if they are missing it, the crowds that are following them are going to miss it too, because that's how they are being taught. Just because a trainer or clinician is well known doesn't mean he can speak "horse"...


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## thunderhooves (Aug 9, 2009)

Originally Posted by *Jolly Badger*  
_That's true. . .I don't generally run across many random mailboxes in the woods that I need to take newspapers out of.:lol: That's one "obstacle" in the CTR world that makes no sense to me. I can understand opening and closing gates, or dragging a branch/log. . .but mailboxes? On trail?

*Oh my, ahahaha! That's so true! XD*
_


​


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

The only school of thought I follow is the one that works for my horse. While the Parelli stuff is certainly is good marketing, that's about it in my opinion. Like to OP, I am also a bit disgusted by watching horses jump clumsily over cow colored barrels (that aren't even secured to keep them from rolling by the way!) Other than basic respect ground work, I'm lost on what is to be gained by all the excessive longing and waving of carrot sticks and flags that goes on the in the "natural horsemanship" circles. It certainly cannot help much when you encounter a wild animal while out of trail ride, unless of course if the animal is afraid of flags I suppose. 

Ultimately you have to actually get on and ride the horse and the results can be very different between how the horse acts when you're standing in front of it and when you're in the saddle. Sadly I feel like most of the people who drink the natural horsemanship coolaid are terrified of their horses and use all these groundwork tricks to avoid riding them. If that's truly their only way to be with a horse that makes them happy, more power to them. However, if they are just buying into a bunch of crap being spewed by so called experts telling them they aren't worthy of riding their horses, then that is just plain sad. Hopefully it's a trend that will balance itself out to the point where there is a balance shifts back toward the human being in charge rather than asking the horse if it's okay to get on.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Jolly Badger said:


> That's true. . .I don't generally run across many random mailboxes in the woods that I need to take newspapers out of.:lol: That's one "obstacle" in the CTR world that makes no sense to me. I can understand opening and closing gates, or dragging a branch/log. . .but mailboxes? On trail?


Actually, that's not such a rare thing if you live in the country like I do. There are lots of people that live just out of town that get their mail delivered to mailboxes more than a half mile from their house. We used to have a friend (before he passed away) that had some of his mail delivered to a mail box on some property that he owned about 5 miles from town. It was just a mailbox on the side of a dirt road and he asked that we check it every few days since we were out that way anyway (we had cattle on his land at that time). Anyway, every time I would go for a ride, I would go check his mail and our cattle to save 10 miles of burned gas from the truck. Occasionally, he would have some letters or a magazine that I would then get to carry back to town.

And I know a real test to see how good your horse is at opening gates. A panel gate is a simple thing. When you can open and close a barbed wire gate without ever getting off your horse, then he's pretty darn good.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

I could explain why asking a horse to put his feet on things works great for preparing the horse to load. However I would be wasting my time  The main principle is, _it's not about the trailer. It's about the horse's confidence._


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## thunderhooves (Aug 9, 2009)

eh, i got my post removed....... again. your lucky, spirithorse, very lucky.........


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## RadHenry09 (Mar 22, 2009)

smrobs said:


> Actually, that's not such a rare thing if you live in the country like I do. There are lots of people that live just out of town that get their mail delivered to mailboxes more than a half mile from their house. We used to have a friend (before he passed away) that had some of his mail delivered to a mail box on some property that he owned about 5 miles from town. It was just a mailbox on the side of a dirt road and he asked that we check it every few days since we were out that way anyway (we had cattle on his land at that time). Anyway, every time I would go for a ride, I would go check his mail and our cattle to save 10 miles of burned gas from the truck. Occasionally, he would have some letters or a magazine that I would then get to carry back to town.
> 
> And I know a real test to see how good your horse is at opening gates. A panel gate is a simple thing. When you can open and close a barbed wire gate without ever getting off your horse, then he's pretty darn good.


WOW, If you can open and close a barbed wire gate w/o getting off your horse I would say he is pretty darn good too! Horse and Rider!


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> And I know a real test to see how good your horse is at opening gates. A panel gate is a simple thing. When you can open and close a barbed wire gate without ever getting off your horse, then he's pretty darn good.


The front gate into our place is barbed, otherwise the cattle rub on it and move the hinges making it really hard to open/shut. It sure teaches the horse not to lean on the gate and is good incentive to make sure they are responsive :]


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## Jolly Badger (Oct 26, 2009)

Spirithorse said:


> I could explain why asking a horse to put his feet on things works great for preparing the horse to load. However I would be wasting my time  The main principle is, _it's not about the trailer. It's about the horse's confidence._


I could also explain why nit-picking a horse, poking it with orange sticks and over-analyzing everything it does based on some horsey pseudo-psychology is a waste of time, too. . .:lol:

Like I said in an earlier post, get out and do the work. Challenge yourself, and your horse. If you do it with confidence, the horse will look to you as a leader.


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