# Why is the Chair Seat so bad??



## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

Subbing as I have huge thighs which makes it very hard for me to sit proper, especially on a wider horse. I think it has something to do with the ability to get your legs under you and lift yourself off your horses back, which is harder if you're in a chair seat.


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## Hotrodz4me (Jul 17, 2016)

Your weight is entirely on your seat bones. That puts you behind the motion of the horse. Puts more pressure at one point on your horses back. the way it has been explained to me is that riding is all about perfect balance between two objects in motion. You are the vertical and your horse is the horizontal anything that that changes that dynamic puts you both out of balance and off balance. Now ask to to explain all the muscles and bones and movement and dynamics and I can't. I was also told to think of it like a clothes pin (with the long arms down) dropped on a clothes line. change the shape or direction of the long arms and the pin would fall off if the change is drastic enough.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I'm trying to picture this in my head as I type. 

aligning your body heels, hips, and shoulders places you in a very balanced position. I'm looking at this as balance and reaction time. If you are sitting more chair seated then you are not going to be able to use your legs correctly. While you could do it, ride with a chair seat, and use your reins for left and right turns... I do not think you would have a very strong seat, meaning if the horse bucks, rears, or spooks you are not going to have much purchase in the saddle and will probably come off a lot easier. Not to mention the fact that you really do loose the ability to use your leg for very simple directional changes because your calf is going to sit on or infront of the girth.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

ErnestPWorrell said:


> I would like to know why the "chair seat" is considered an incorrect riding position? A neutral pelvis can be achieved with your legs in front or even behind the vertical so that argument is out. The ability to use your legs as aids is not inhibited in any way by having your legs slightly in front of your hips so that argument is also out. I want an honest answer from a biomechanics stand point (whether from rider or horse perspective) as to why the chair seat is not an ideal position.


In your perspective, how are leg aids NOT prohibited in a chair seat?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

ErnestPWorrell said:


> I would like to know why the "chair seat" is considered an incorrect riding position? A neutral pelvis can be achieved with your legs in front or even behind the vertical so that argument is out. The ability to use your legs as aids is not inhibited in any way by having your legs slightly in front of your hips so that argument is also out. I want an honest answer from a biomechanics stand point (whether from rider or horse perspective) as to why the chair seat is not an ideal position.



if you always sit the trot, it isn't as much of a factor as if you post the trot, or want to gallop in a half seat with your butt off the saddle. in such cases, as one person already said, you will be behind the motion when you try to get out of the saddle at the posting trot/etc.

and, as someone said, it does put more of your weight directly down onto your seat bones because less is taken onto your thighs.

if your legs are considerably forward, you will have to do some kind of countering action to keep them there. for example, you will either have to push into the stirrup quite a bit, or (if never posting) you can lean your upper body way back, or, if you do wish to post, you will have to lean your upper body quite a bit forward in order to be able to rise out of the saddle. or, you will have to pinch hard with your knee and use sheer physical strength to torque yourself out of the saddle, pivot off the knee alone, which ends up with you getting behind the motion.


so, big question for you: are you sitting all gaits?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Define chair seat. If you mean sitting like in a chair, with horizontal thighs, then it is bad. Makes it hard to move with the horse and makes it easy for a horse to dump you. Also tough to ride out a spin, and meanwhile your weight is heavy on the back - and horse need to move their back in order to move.

If you mean "heels in front of the belt buckle" - that works fine for GP riding.

From Dupaty de Clam:








​ 
Also:








​ 
From the US Cavalry - chair seat on top, forward seat on the bottom:








​ 
In a forward seat, your heels are in front of your belt buckle and you lean forward to get your center of gravity over the stirrups. In a traditional seat, your heels are under your hip - which is also in line with your center of gravity.

If your center of gravity is behind the stirrups, it is called behind the horse - which is a good defensive position. The horse will not be able to move as athletically, but you'll be in good shape for spins, balking, bucks, etc. But if your thighs are parallel to the horse's back...not much good comes from it, unless eating dirt sounds like fun.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

I have a default to my legs sticking out in front of me. This puts me behind any forward motion, way behind any sudden forward motion. My teacher tells me I should strive to feel balanced in that if my horse suddenly disappeared, I would land on my feet, not my butt or my face. When I manage to do that, my horse seems to also feel more balanced under me. She's able to move more freely in any direction I ask, and to understand my cues.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Depends how you define chair seat - you still see a lot of the top hunter showing riders in the UK sitting in what could be described as a chair seat and it doesn't seem to affect the way their horses perform
Robert Oliver, seen in this video, is highly respected as a rider and producer of top show horses.


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

i've given up trying to force my leg under me. I'm an older novice so I'm not as bendy as I used to be. Forcing my leg into that position creates tension throughout my body. Same with trying to turn my toes in. The tension is then transferred to my horse and it just doesn't work. 

I'm sure there is a really good explanation on why chair seat isn't as good as the classical seat but it doesn't work for everyone. I have no problem posting or a forward seat, I just transfer my centre of gravity forward.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

You can't have an effective leg in a chair seat. Your leg will sit near the girth groove, lower leg forced off the horses side because there is no body there to connect with. Bring it back to her in alignment under you and you gain contact with the full breadth of the horses body.

Then you have balance and tension that arises from fighting physics.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

I don't worry much about where my lower leg is; it doesn't ever work for me to push my leg back, it won't stay there unless what's on top of it is aligned right. If instead I think about pointing my knees in, sitting up straight, firming my core, and tucking my tailbone, I will sit more balanced and more secure and my leg will naturally hang in more or less the right place.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

while it may not be the ideal position, if you get older, have injuries, sometimes it is the only position you get while in the saddle. You should try to get your legs back, as an exercise and you may be able to get them back after time.


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

stevenson said:


> while it may not be the ideal position, if you get older, have injuries, sometimes it is the only position you get while in the saddle. You should try to get your legs back, as an exercise and you may be able to get them back after time.


Eh, I've been trying for 4 years. All I get from it are back and neck cramps and a crooked horse. My instructor agrees with me now. And we've been trying really hard. It just doesn't work. Different sadles, different horses...nope.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I have become more chaire seated as a trail rider. it is easier on my back. but, it's a mild change, and if I am postijng, I bring my legs back into alignement.

some saddles just put you in that position and it's a losing battle to try and sit any other way.


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

I was always taught if the horse was taken out from under you then you should land on your feet but if you're in chair position you'll probably fall on your bum.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

to me, a chair seat is like you see many dudes, riding esp in a western saddle- **** against the cantle, legs stuck out in front, and that position might work on a dude horse, just following along, but have a horse spin , shy or make any other sudden move, and you will see why the 'classical chair seat does not work


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## ErnestPWorrell (Sep 11, 2016)

Great replies everyone! From what I've gathered along with my own research is that the only real reason the chair seat isn't an ideal position is because the rider is slightly behind the forward motion of the horse. The use of leg aids as I mentioned earlier really are not affected because let's face it the horse can adapt and learn to respond to YOUR unique aids. You could say that the riders weight is more centralized under his/seat bones as well but I don't see that as a negative, that's what saddles are for. If you haven't guessed it already yes I ride with my legs forward of my hips
and have never had an issue. I find it irritating when people try to force you into an uncomfortable position just because "someone else told you to". When I try to ride in a classical position I get horrible knee and ankle pain resulting in tension through my whole body (which of course my gelding can feel). I specialize in rehab and corrective exercise (for people lol) and no two are alike in how they move, their limb proportions and strengths. Your position should be whatever works for you! There is no wrong!


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## DimSum (Mar 28, 2012)

tinyliny said:


> I have become more chaire seated as a trail rider. it is easier on my back. but, it's a mild change, and if I am postijng, I bring my legs back into alignement.
> 
> some saddles just put you in that position and it's a losing battle to try and sit any other way.


I totally get this, that position is so much easier on the back and knees. My Crates and Circle Y western trail saddles are like that, they put me in a chair seat which is okay except for posting which is a lot of work to rise from that position. 

My current horse is a stout short (he and I are well matched LOL) draft cross that was broke to carriage so his trot isn't very comfy to sit. So I went to an English style Tucker saddle that puts me in a more forward seat and I love it. Easier to teach him to move off of pressure as well. 

Though I suspect the OP was referring to more competitive riding than I do anymore :grin:


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

The old school show orders in the UK always show as in the video above. I once asked a coupe of the 'old boys' why it was and they told me it was because it was the way horses use to be ridden and it shows the horse going in a balanced way without being held together. 

As for chair seat I would rather see a rider in this position that leaning forward. He biggest problem is that to balance the leg being forward riders are more inclined to balance on the reins. 

For those that have difficulty in keeping their leg back a favourite exercise of mine to get pupils to do is when first on the horse to place a hand under their thigh from the back and pull all the flesh to the back. This places the thigh flat on the saddle, the knee and toe are facing forward with the knee flat against the saddle, where it should be and the lower leg under your body.
It feels very strange to start and has to be done many times in a ride at the outset but after a while it becomes natural.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Since Xenophon created the term:

"But now, supposing the rider fairly seated, whether bareback or on a saddle-cloth, a good seat is not that of a man seated on a chair, but rather the pose of a man standing upright with his legs apart. In this way he will be able to hold on to the horse more firmly by his thighs; and this erect attitude will enable him to hurl a javelin or to strike a blow from horseback, if occasion calls, with more vigorous effect. The leg and foot should hang loosely from the knee; by keeping the leg stiff, the rider is apt to have it broken in collision with some obstacle; whereas a flexible leg will yield to the impact, and at the same time not shift the thigh from its position. The rider should also accustom the whole of his body above the hips to be as supple as possible; for thus he will enlarge his scope of action, and in case of a tug or shove be less liable to be unseated."

Chair seat, from Xenophon's time:










Not a chair seat (IMHO), from Xenophon's time:
​ 






​ 
FWIW: "The _Jockey of Artemision_ is a large Hellenistic bronze statue of a young boy riding a horse, dated to c.140 BC". He is holding something in his hand, btw, and not flipping off the spectators:








​


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

Consider how easily you are able to adjust the balance and movement of your body when you are standing and when you are sitting. 

Consider how your weight is distributed when you sit in a saddle with all parts of you body below your hips in front your hips. Now consider how your weight is distributed when you sit with your legs beneath your hips and gravity not only holds your seat to the saddle but raps your legs around the body of your horse.

You should also this question from the perspective of the horse. If you’ve ever carried someone on your shoulders, you probably learned that the person is easier to carry if his or her weight is balance over your own center of gravity. The same is true for a horse. The easier a horse can carry a rider, the better the horse can perform.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Thanks, TXHorseman, for the more detailed reply.
How you sit, besides helping you to stay with the horse, thus making it easier for the hrose to carry your weight, does affect leg cues.
It is very difficult, to have an independent seat .allowing your legs to move freely, cue the horse correctly, keep legs off of the hrose, unless you intend to apply them, sitting in a chair seat.
Of course, equitation position, changes, in various disciplines, be it jumping a fence, sitting a sliding stop, ect,but those positions changes are adapted to sit that particular movement, with feet still not just floating in the stirrups, your weight mainly on your seat bones
Trial riding, I might have my legs more forward, but if I post, or alternate standing in the stirrups, long trotting to cover ground, the only way to do so, without hanging on the saddle horn, is you have your legs aleigned correctly underneath you
Far as leg cues, if you really want to ride a well trained horse, not confused by where you apply those leg cues, you need to sit correctly, body aleigned, so that you can cue the horse either slightly ahead of the cinch, at the cinch, or slightly behind the cinch
Perhaps, watching the video by Larry Trocha, on teaching the stop, might give you further insight
Far as jumping position, running barrels, ect, those are variations from basic equitation, to accommodate staying with the hrose in those particular maneuvers, with stirrups even shortened from riding on the flat, far as jumping, so using those examples do not really apply, as you sure are not going to ride out on a trail, either sitting like you would in a sliding stop, or going over a fence!


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

my fiance rides most horses chair seated. his reasoning is that he spend MUCH of his riding career riding RANK and nasty horses who would buck and throw themselves on the ground (basically he was between them and a bullet). it helped his balance and he has stuck with then regardless how high or hard they bucked or how many times they slam themselves on the ground (not something i ever want to see again). Now he is 29 and feels like he is 60 so now he rides in a chair seat for his comfort. I avoid chair seating as best as i can but on long rides my crocked legs cant handle it.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

^^ Riding bucking horses and staying on suggests his legs were around the horse. I don't see that as a chair seat. Sitting on top of a horse, with high knees, short stirrups and your weight toward the loin, a horse can buck you off like flicking a pea off a spoon. 

It depends on what the OP means by a chair seat. Is this famous photo of a cowboy from 1888 a "chair seat"? I say no, but others say yes.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

A very young Queen Elizabeth riding one of her ponies in a 'chair seat'
and one of the top UK show ponies of her day Pretty Polly ridden by Davina Lee Smith who was to become Davina Whiteman, a very well known name in UK showing circles and an extremely capable rider


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

then we may need a solid definition of chair seat. my fiances legs are out farther then the cowboy in the pics. More so like how she is sitting but western







. It seams to work for him but he is also 6'4" and has ridden some short horses lol.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

this image:










is not a full chair seat , IMO, though it's part way there. the way that the cowboy is pushing his lower leg forward, locking the knee, is a classic mark of the chair seat style of riding, like you'd see on many gaited horse riders.

good? bad? well, i'm sure it worked for him, so that's what counts. or, maybe he's just stretching his legs at the moment the camera tripped.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

That cowboy is not sitting in what i a considered a true 'chair seat', but rather is riding with long stirrups, and in one of those old western saddles where the stirrups are hung more forward

This is a chair seat:

Photo 3. A chair seat is a very common mistake. It starts with the pelvis rotated backwards. As a result, the rider sits mostly on the back part of the pelvis, on the seatbones. If you like to round your lower back and rotate your pelvis backwards when you sit in a chair, you are likely to have that problem in the saddle.

Here is the entire article

Alignment

How about first talking of the 'balanced seat, and the following article, which is introduced by the pasted paragragh, goes into positions.

"Thousands of years ago, the Greek horsemaster Xenophon said that one's position on a horse should be more like standing on the ground than sitting on a chair. Now, after many styles have come and gone, his words have proved to be the best advice for most horseback activities. 




This position is called the "balanced seat", because the rider is balanced over 

her/his heels, from the top of her/his head, down.



The Balanced Seat


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

So... I was thinking about this thread while I rode today. I was on my hunt pony in a western saddle. He has a pseudo western jog and a very collected canter. He really should have been used for dressage instead of hunt, he rides more in that type of frame. I kept trying to sit back and pushing my legs forward in a true chair seat but it was uncomfortable for me and irritating for him so it didn't work out so well for me. I ended up riding him the way I normally ride, although for his canter I was more in an english frame rather than my usual western seat.

There was one point where he spooked at a hunting dog in the woods and was glad that I wasn't still playing with the chair seat because I would have lost my seat had I not had my legs more underneath myself.

I do ride my TWH with my legs a little more forward and can pull them up, in a chair seat or hold them completely off of her and balance with no legs whatsoever but walking horses ride differently and when they are collected, feel more like a rolling couch than a horse...


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Barry Godden wrote about learning that style of riding, years ago (underlining mine):



xxBarry Godden said:


> Years ago I was taught to ride 'Western' by an old, bent bow legged Canadian cowboy who had been involved with horses since he was a kid. In the 1930s he had been a winning rodeo rider. By the time I met him he had formed a Western riding club in Surrey, where anyone who rode horses used the English hunting seat. Kennie's first job with new members was to teach them how to ride Western on his Western schooled horses.
> 
> The first lesson was to adjust the stirrups so that the leg was carried almost straight. Enough bend was left in the knee to just lift the butt off the seat of the saddle even at the trot.
> 
> ...


I got curious about how well it worked, so I tried it for a month or so. I still like a longer than average leg, and still sometimes ride with my leg shoved forward. 

Why? It is not the way to max perform a horse, but is an easy way to stay stable on a horse. It creates, when viewed from above, a triangle of support, with one's rump being one point and the two stirrups being the other. For fast trots and fast canters and gallops, I find it uncomfortable to ride. Easy to stay on, but uncomfortable. For a western jog or lope, I think it feels good.

I'm getting older and stiffer. It often takes me a while to loosen up on a horse. During the first 15-30 minutes of a ride, depending on how tight and stiff I feel, riding the way Barry Godden describes helps me. Once I get loosened up, I feel better riding in a long-legged version of the forward seat, more like something from a Henry Thomas Alken painting.

My horses seem quite content ridden the way Barry Godden described. We've cruised along, ears forward and horse acting happy, using that approach. It doesn't seem very elegant. It certainly is not subtle, and I'm sure it would make subtle cues with spurs almost impossible. 

This, to me, is a chair seat - although Jackie Kennedy was an experienced rider. Still think the horse could flick her off like a booger...


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

In terms of bucking and flicking people off.... ever see how bronc riders stay on? Obviously this is extreme, but they shove those legs forward, supporting the triangle theory.
Example


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

This, to me, is a chair seat - although Jackie Kennedy was an experienced rider. Still think the horse could flick her off like a booger...







[/quote]

When viewing still photographs, we must consider whether what we see is the usual position of the rider when riding.

I doubt that this picture of Jackie Kennedy shows her typical position when riding. Rather, it appears that she is trying to prevent the horse from moving forward while she poses for the photograph. Note how she is looking toward the camera rather than looking forward. From the looks of the horse and reins, it appears as though she is pulling on the reins to stop the horse. At the same time, her feet are probably further forward than usual in order to give her more leverage for pulling on the reins while preventing her upper torso from falling forward.

While this is not the way I teach stopping a horse, it is a method that is commonly employed by riders. I have been guilty of employing it myself.


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

WhattaTroublemaker said:


> In terms of bucking and flicking people off.... ever see how bronc riders stay on? Obviously this is extreme, but they shove those legs forward, supporting the triangle theory.
> Example


Neither a rider's legs nor the position of his upper torso are constant when riding a bucking horse. Instead, the rider must constantly adjust his position in order to remain on the horse. A still photograph only captures a moment of continuous motion .


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

WhattaTroublemaker said:


> In terms of bucking and flicking people off.... ever see how bronc riders stay on? Obviously this is extreme, but they shove those legs forward, supporting the triangle theory.
> Example


As was stated above a still picture captures only that second in time. I just goggled bronc photos and found some that showed the rider with his leg back as the bronc, well bronced.

I don't trust just one arbitrary picture as proof that a particular rider rides that way all the time, the example being Jackie O's photo.

Nor do I trust antique statues or paintings. Those are to be pleasing to the eye, and also are indicative of the artistic tastes of the artist and society of that time.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Many the time where I have adopted the lean back feet forward position! Much safer in a difficult situation than sitting pretty! However, it is not in balance with a horse going correctly. 

We would rode the horses and ponies bareback to and from the fields and normal positions were to lean back and put our feet forward so we could sit deeper. 
To establish a deep in the arena we often had to trot around the arena with our legs hooked over the front of the saddle, this ensured we were sitting on our seat bones and not causing bouncing by gripping up. 

Use of the seat is little mentioned nowadays yet it is a vital aid to be in balance and to be able to sit deep. A novice rider will find it easier to sit to the trot by taking a slightly or even exaggerated backward position with the body, their legs will probably go slightly forward but once they have mastered the ability to sit to a trot then the upright position with leg under the body is easily achieved - more so than trying to teach someone with a forward position to sit to the trot and use their seat correctly.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I googled Jackie O's equestrian pictures and majority showed her in a not very good position though there were some of her jumping out hunting that were good.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

doesn't that bronc riders' position require a firm grip on the rein, I mean hauling hard on it, to create the balance? withtout the rein, would he still be able to ride like that? also, that is in the horse going down position, so he must lean back.


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

In terms of riding in general, don't we all move with the horses body and adjust our position no matter what discipline we ride, isn't that the point though? Broncs are a bit extreme but that was my point. Whatever the horse is doing one must constantly make minor adjustments to maintain balance and move with the horse.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

bsms said:


> If your center of gravity is behind the stirrups, it is called behind the horse - which is a good defensive position. The horse will not be able to move as athletically, but you'll be in good shape for spins, balking, bucks, etc.


 
Yeah....not so much. A seat that will help you stick a horse is a balanced seat, and you can't have a balanced seat when your feet are 6+ inches in front of the rest of your body. When I first started riding colts almost 20 years ago, I hit the ground, a LOT. At about 15, I finally asked my Dad why I was having such a hard time riding out shenanigans and you know what his answer was? "If you get your feet under you like they're supposed to be, your whole body will be more effective". I figured, he's been riding/training horses (including many rank ones) since the early 60s, he _might_ know what he's talking about. Started focusing on getting myself balanced and, lo and behold, I quit hitting the ground. Not only that, but my entire riding ability improved. My leg was more effective, my hands were softer and more fluid, and my horses responded to that because I wasn't having to use the reins to counteract the balance of having my feet in front of me and no way to balance with fast forward motion...or sideways motion...or spooks and spins.

You know, I really never understood why you post random pictures and artist depictions from anywhere from 75 to 700 years ago and then preach about how that position was correct and it's perfectly fine to ride that way. I won't argue and say that many people don't ride that way and get along fine....but I've not seen a good, conscientious rider that didn't mostly maintain a balanced position or close to it. If you aren't balanced, the fluidity of your body suffers, which makes your horse suffer. Our knowledge of horses in general and biomechanics has increased greatly in the last few decades, creating a better working world for the horse because we give more thought to what is best for THEM, not just what "looks" good or fits a certain style. That's why I focus and study good riders and horses from _today_ more than I ever would some stylized artist's depiction from 500 years ago.



sarahfromsc said:


> As was stated above a still picture captures only that second in time. I just goggled bronc photos and found some that showed the rider with his leg back as the bronc, well bronced.
> 
> I don't trust just one arbitrary picture as proof that a particular rider rides that way all the time, the example being Jackie O's photo.
> 
> Nor do I trust antique statues or paintings. Those are to be pleasing to the eye, and also are indicative of the artistic tastes of the artist and society of that time.


 
Yes, exactly. Bronc riding cannot be compared, in any way shape or form, to pleasure or performance riding.
When a horse is bucking, you gotta do what you gotta do to stay on and it is very seldom "pretty" and it especially isn't functional for a horse that isn't bucking so using that photo as a comparison in this discussion is about like discussing apples and whales, not even in the same hemisphere LOL.



tinyliny said:


> doesn't that bronc riders' position require a firm grip on the rein, I mean hauling hard on it, to create the balance? withtout the rein, would he still be able to ride like that? also, that is in the horse going down position, so he must lean back.


 
This is exactly right, there is a little bit of an art to riding bucking horses effectively in a rodeo....and a whole different art to riding them effectively in the "real" world. The movement of the bronc rider's legs is to keep the body balanced to the movements of the horse (upper body leans toward the section of horse in the air, forward when the front end comes up, back when the tail comes up) and they are constantly pulling hard (in an upward direction, not back) on that bronc rein to keep their butts down in the saddle. Almost every time a cowboy gets some of that rein pulled through his hand by the bronc, a buck-off is imminent because he's lost that brace that allows him to maintain the precarious balance necessary to ride a bronc well.


I suppose if folks are perfectly fine with balancing on their horse's face constantly, then they are more than welcome to ride like a bronc rider :? . But if anyone thinks that type of position makes it _easy _to ride a bucking horse, they haven't seen much rodeo LOL.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


If a rider doesn't have a balanced seat/leg/body when something bad happens (buck/bolt/spook/etc), then they will have to regain that balance somewhere, usually either by grabbing horn/mane or by snatching the horse in the mouth. Folks ride in chair seats all the time and get along fine....but it isn't an ideal way to ride simply because it limits the mobility of your body, it limits your ability to give leg cues (on any properly trained horse), it limits the fluidity of your hands/shoulders because they are compensating for the imbalance in the rest of your body. Imagine sitting on a chair. If your feet are under you and you are "balanced" in the chair and using your legs to keep your seat light in the chair, if someone snatches it out from under you, it's unlikely that you'll fall. However, if you are plopped down, chilling, with your feet tossed out in front of you and someone snatches the chair, you're going flat on your butt.


It is possible for the imbalanced rider to be a "good" rider in the sense that they can ride most anything and not fall off.......but I was raised to believe that there is a heck of a lot more to being a good rider than just the ability to stay on. :?


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

tinyliny said:


> doesn't that bronc riders' position require a firm grip on the rein, I mean hauling hard on it, to create the balance? withtout the rein, would he still be able to ride like that? also, that is in the horse going down position, so he must lean back.



I can assure you of a horse is trying to buck me off that he's, I will be leaning back and will be hauling on his face trying to get its head up'


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

one big difference in chair seat vs CHAIR SEAT seems to me to be whether or not the rider is pushing the stirrup forward, hard, and is locking the knee.

when the knee is locked is when you are in for trouble if the hrose spins or props (stops suddenly), becuase then you can be 'slingshot' off of the the stirrups. some people get around that by pushing their butt back hard against the cantle, sort of locking their seat between force on the stirrups, and force from the cantle onto their backside. but, doesn't it mean that if your lower body is locked into place by tension in your legs, locked joints, that your upper body will take up all the motion, and will be flung around like a doll tied hard to a saddle on a jumpy horse?


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Bronc riders and leg position:
They get points for "spurring" so they move their legs forward and backward throughout the entire ride. This is not for balance, but for points. 

Although much is said about the "ideal" riding position with the heel lined up with the head, this is not actually an ideal riding position.









Every good rider I know does not ride like this. If you put your weight into the top of your knee rather than down your lower leg, you will tend to pivot forward, have a loss of connection between your center of gravity and your lower leg, and will get muscle cramping.

A much more ideal position is to have your stirrup fenders/billets hanging straight down and your weight centered over it. 


















How much of a "chair" this puts you in depends on how short your stirrups are and where your center of gravity is at the time. But I would never call this a "chair" seat.








Nor is this a chair seat, because the rider remains balanced with the action both sitting and rising.








This I would call a "chair" seat, because the rider is disengaged and pushing the stirrup fender out of place.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

tinyliny said:


> one big difference in chair seat vs CHAIR SEAT seems to me to be whether or not the rider is pushing the stirrup forward, hard, and is locking the knee.
> 
> when the knee is locked is when you are in for trouble if the hrose spins or props (stops suddenly), becuase then you can be 'slingshot' off of the the stirrups. some people get around that by pushing their butt back hard against the cantle, sort of locking their seat between force on the stirrups, and force from the cantle onto their backside. but, doesn't it mean that if your lower body is locked into place by tension in your legs, locked joints, that your upper body will take up all the motion, and will be flung around like a doll tied hard to a saddle on a jumpy horse?


I can assure you that as I ride with a 'flat' thigh and my knees are against the saddle, that should a horse spin or stop suddenly, I a man gripping with my upper leg and sometimes lower leg too.

With a bucking horse it depends on the type of buck as to how to ride it. If the horse has its head down and is propping or arching its back as in the picture posted, then the chair position is the best. If it is bringing its back end up then you need to be careful at you are either sat very deep or are out the saddle, if you are coming down into the saddle as the butt comes up you can be catapulted quite some distance! 

With majority of horses that are bucking to drop a rider if you can stay there, keeping them going forward, that are generally tired after less than a minute - which can feel like an hour! 

Out with hounds it is far safer to adopt the backward seat. You go forward as the horse jumps, sit as it is in mid air and lean back on the descent. At the same time you slip the reins so as not to sock it in the mouth but maintain a contact or be ready to gather the reins fast as the horse moves forward.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"A seat that will help you stick a horse is a balanced seat, and you can't have a balanced seat when your feet are 6+ inches in front of the rest of your body." - @smrobs

Here are some unbalanced riders:






The reason I first starting trying feet forward was that my riding down a street on Mia often looked like a cutting horse. Figured maybe they knew something worth knowing. And it worked. I stopped slamming into the poleys of my Australian saddle and stayed on in the many spooks and sideways jumps that followed by keeping my eyes open and trying different things. The fact that I have yet to come off a horse I wasn't trying to come off suggests that maybe it can work - even when the rider is an uncoordinated guy who started at 50.

" _Our knowledge of horses in general and biomechanics has increased greatly in the last few decades_" 

Myth. Consider the 'shoulder-hip=heel in a vertical line' rule promoted in modern riding. It is mechanically unsound. Why? Stand on a bus. Keep your feet together. When the bus suddenly slows, what do you do? That's right - you put a foot forward to keep your balance! Why? Because anyone who walks understands, at some level, the need to keep their base of support under where their center of gravity is going.

Too many modern riders get caught up in the fads of today. The truth is that the forward seat was known and used by women playing polo in China 1,000 years ago. They didn't wait for Caprilli to "discover it". Xenophon taught being astride a horse - with heels somewhat forward - over 2,000 years ago. What was not taught, until very recently, is that a balanced rider should have a very narrow base of support, and ride in a vertical line.



Foxhunter said:


> Many the time where I have adopted the lean back feet forward position! Much safer in a difficult situation than sitting pretty! However, it is not in balance with a horse going correctly...
> 
> ...I googled Jackie O's equestrian pictures and majority showed her in a not very good position though there were some of her jumping out hunting that were good....


I agree completely. As I have already said, feet forward is NOT the way to max perform a horse. It is a defensive position. But how much does it "cost" a horse?

Jim Wofford cites a study that showed racing times improved by 5-7% in the decade following jockeys getting off the horse's back. Times since then have improved, with modern training and knowledge, a whopping 1% over the last 110 years. That suggests the horse suffers a 6% cost when someone uses a long legged, defensive style of racing. That is HUGE in a race - roughly 100 yards over a mile. Outside of competition, when many of us are just riding for fun, it is the difference between a 10 mile ride and a 10.6 mile ride. Some...but not huge. Not if the rider needs to be more defensive. As a jogger, it is the equivalent of the difference between a 4 mile jog and a 4.25 mile jog. Not much, to me.

I have not in any way suggested anyone MUST adopt a feet forward position if they don't think it benefits them. Once I start to melt in the saddle, I don't use it much - unless I feel the need to become defensive.

The OP asked "I want an honest answer from a biomechanics stand point (whether from rider or horse perspective) as to why the chair seat is not an ideal position." - @ErnestPWorrell

I've given multiple reasons why a true chair seat isn't "an ideal position." I've also pointed out some drawbacks to using the old cowboy position. But the idea that it is unbalanced, harmful to the horse, always sucks...doesn't match what I've experienced. It doesn't match how people have ridden for a few thousands years, all around the world.

When I worked operational test for the military, we took the manufacturer's claim, tried the equipment, and looked to see if what happened matched their claims. I do the same in riding. 

BTW, the 'old cowboy position' as used in England in the mid-1800s:








​


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## kiltsrhott (Mar 11, 2012)

I just read through most of this thread. It's interesting, and I agree with a lot of what's said. I have always been told I ride in a chair seat. When I was younger and was taking mostly western or stock type hunter lessons, this didn't seem to matter too much. Now that I'm taking dressage lessons, it depends on what instructor I'm with, but some of them try to force my leg back. One lesson, I rode in this dressage saddle with monster thigh blocks that forced my leg back. After that lesson I was in so much pain. My hips, knees, ankles and lower back were screaming, and I could hardly walk once I dismounted. I told her I could never ride in that saddle again.

It seems widely understood that horses with different conformation will naturally move or carry themselves differently, but for some reason, there seems to only be one standard for the rider. People have different conformation from each other too. Not everyone can ride with their heels directly under their hips. I'm only 28. I've never had any really serious injuries or any other reason that I shouldn't be able to sit in the ideal position. I'm quite flexible too, so stiffness isn't an issue. I just can't force myself into the ideal position without feeling awkward, unbalanced, and painful.

Here's an example of where my leg likes to naturally fall:









Granted, I'm relaxed here, and not actively riding, but it's a bareback shot so there aren't any stirrups influencing the position of my leg.

I don't really think this has ever been a problem for me, as far as balance. I agree with some of the others, in that a chair seat is much worse if the rider is falling behind the motion of the horse, or is bracing themselves on the stirrups, and is unable to adapt their position for the need in the moment. Because I don't brace myself, I can adjust my position as needed, and my leg isn't always sticking out in front of me, though this is definitely my most relaxed default.

As far as my own learning goes, I much prefer if an instructor give me exercises to do that help me to naturally find my balance and come into a better position, than just putting me in a saddle with huge thigh blocks and trying to force it. A relaxed seat where my leg is a little too far forward has always worked out better for me, and for the horse I'm riding, than a visually correct, but forced, tense, and painful position.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Why does a position initially hurting, making muscles sore, ect mean it is wrong? Just because something feels wrong it is wrong? If that the case no one would ever improve their riding. 

Sure, some people have structural changes to their joints, but I've observed often people give up on something because it feels uncomfortable or hard, rather than put the time and energy into a change. And yes, I've had rides where I can hardly dismount because I hurt, but my position is better for it. 

If you want to attain a higher level of performance you need those legs under you, around the flesh of the horse. The position is fluid, if you need to drop the leg forward to you, be it for a specific aid or a safety measure. However, if you have a strong seat and leg, you don't necessarily need the leg braced to hang on during a spook, or a drop, or other similar situations. It can weaken you position to do so as now your leg is off the horse and you ability to ride them is diminished. Look at eventers over drop fences. Some will leg the leg forward, many keep it in place to be able to support the horse on the other side.

Around me, all the good riders I know do follow this pattern.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

when riding bareback, the rider's legs WILL almost always be more foreward. they will slide foreward into the so-called 'girth groove', behind the elbow. and, the rider might used that position to grip into to hold themselves tight, such as those riders in the Parthenon (ancient Greek) statues. it's a pretty natural way to ride bareback. 
And, the shape of the horse's barrel will hugely influence where the rider's legs fall. @kiltsrhott shows a rider sitting on a horse with a large barrel, and probably a narrower chest area. makes your leg go right into 'home' position.

once you put a saddle on, with stirrups and leathers, you may be able to achieve a more vertical line-up, but even then, it will be harder to overcome the large barrel and narrower girth area, that whats to 'suck' the leg forward.


as to bsms's video of cutting horses, those riders do have the leg forward, but , if you watch, they are barely using the stirrups. they are NOT braced into the stirrups, and the knee is not locked out straight. they are very fluid in the entire body, absorbing motion in the hip, knee and back. 
(and it sure helps for them to wear full leather chaps! ) 
wonderful riders and super horses!


the OP wanted to know why it was "bad' for a chair seat. and, it might not be bad, in certain situtations. but, bracing hard into the stirrups, locking the knee straight are more the bad part of what is often seen as a chair seat, more than just having your leg in front of your hip.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

It is absolutely pointless to compare old hunting pictures of riders to the modern day. If you ever rode on one of the old saddles you would know why they had a chair seat. No knee rolls to lock a rider in position all done by balance. 

Riding the ponies bareback to and from the field we all rode with a chair seat, leaning way back and feet forward, the only bracing we did was one hand pushing against the withers when we were being hooked off with down the Downs! 

I haven't ridden Western a great deal but when riding a working cow horse I found and saw that the other cowboys were all quick to brace against the horn when a horse was working cutting cattle thus setting the riders weigh back.

As for how much a rider leaning back costs a horse, if it is used as a safety measure then it will not cost a horse much because as soon as the horse stops whatever it was doing then the rider becomes light again. 

Horses that would insist on jogging on the way home instead of walking I would sit heavy in a chair seat but with my legs under me, thus making the jog uncomfortable for the horse. As soon as it walked i became light.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

"A seat that will help you stick a horse is a balanced seat, and you can't have a balanced seat when your feet are 6+ inches in front of the rest of your body." - @*smrobs*

Here are some unbalanced riders:





 
The reason I first starting trying feet forward was that my riding down a street on Mia often looked like a cutting horse. Figured maybe they knew something worth knowing. And it worked. I stopped slamming into the poleys of my Australian saddle and stayed on in the many spooks and sideways jumps that followed by keeping my eyes open and trying different things. The fact that I have yet to come off a horse I wasn't trying to come off suggests that maybe it can work - even when the rider is an uncoordinated guy who started at 50.


@BSMS ..... And yet in all those videos, those riders are braced against the saddle horn with the right hand and must move their feet _back_ if they actually need to use them. Comparing riding a competitive cutting horse with riding a horse down the trail or around the arena doesn't work. It is not the same type of movement, it's not the same type of riding. A cutting horse does NOT move the same or feel the same as a horse that spooks and spins/bolts. People who have ridden actual cutting horses can tell you that. 

The difference is that type of riding may be required FOR A MOMENT IN TIME in an extreme circumstance or high performance event to be able to stay on the horse.....but that does NOT mean that that form is "proper" riding for all other times. Heck, I've ridden out a buck with one spur hooked in the cinch and the other hooked under the saddle pad. I'm sure if I looked hard enough, I could probably find a drawing or a painting of a cowboy 200 years ago in the same basic posture, but that doesn't mean that it's good :? .

And, again, being able to manage to not fall off is not the same as being a good, conscientious rider. Here is a video of a very experienced and accomplished rider. Notice where his legs are? Notice how he can sit the horse without hanging on the reins? He has his legs there because he has to keep both hands free to control direction and can't hang onto the horn to keep his balance in the stops/turns/lunges.





 


" _Our knowledge of horses in general and biomechanics has increased greatly in the last few decades_" 

Myth. Consider the 'shoulder-hip=heel in a vertical line' rule promoted in modern riding. It is mechanically unsound. Why? Stand on a bus. Keep your feet together. When the bus suddenly slows, what do you do? That's right - you put a foot forward to keep your balance! Why? Because anyone who walks understands, at some level, the need to keep their base of support under where their center of gravity is going.

Really? So if you stand with your foot forward and your balance leaned back, bracing for the stop that _might_ come, what happens when the bus lurches forward? You bust your @$$ on the ground or you have to snatch a grip on the handle/seat (horn/reins) to keep from falling over backward. A horse isn't a bus, a horse can go from balking backward to bolting forward in the space of less than a heartbeat. Being a balanced rider isn't about being constantly balanced in defense of one particular move that _might_ happen, a balanced rider has to be prepared for BOTH. If we are going to compare things that aren't even similar, then lets look at karate masters. Their balance is on point when they have their feet under them, spread slightly more than shoulder width, perhaps with one slightly in front of the other with the body centered between them (so one slightly forward and one slightly behind the body). In that stance, they are prepared for *any* attack, not just one that tries to pull them forward.

Too many modern riders get caught up in the fads of today. The truth is that the forward seat was known and used by women playing polo in China 1,000 years ago. They didn't wait for Caprilli to "discover it". Xenophon taught being astride a horse - with heels somewhat forward - over 2,000 years ago. What was not taught, until very recently, is that a balanced rider should have a very narrow base of support, and ride in a vertical line.

As opposed to being caught up in the fads of 1000 years ago based on a few paintings or drawings? :? One reason why I watch modern riders is because there is video, there is an opportunity to SEE them working and sitting a horse. I can look at them and see if they are balanced, if they are soft and forgiving with legs/hands, if their horses are happy and balanced, etc. There are people all over the world who talk a big game and make themselves _sound_ like some kind of riding messiah through the written word.... but in actuality couldn't ride their way out of a wet paper bag.

I agree completely. As I have already said, feet forward is NOT the way to max perform a horse. It is a defensive position. But how much does it "cost" a horse?


Considering the level of the rider's imbalance in the saddle, it could cost the horse quite a bit. Like @*TXhorseman* said, it's about like carrying someone on your back. If the person you are carrying is leaning back away from you or off to one side, then you have to accommodate for their lack of balance by working much harder to maintain your own. It is no different for a horse. Not only are they attempting to maintain their own balance while carrying a 200 pound load, but then they have to accommodate for that load that isn't sitting balanced with them.

I've given multiple reasons why a true chair seat isn't "an ideal position." I've also pointed out some drawbacks to using the old cowboy position. But the idea that it is unbalanced, harmful to the horse, always sucks...doesn't match what I've experienced. It doesn't match how people have ridden for a few thousands years, all around the world.


And unbalanced rider is an unbalanced rider, regardless of what YOU think is ideal and what you think is right/wrong and regardless of "what has been done around the world for thousands of years." I'm sure the horse probably thinks being forced to pack around an unbalanced rider sucks too. The defense of "it's always been done that way" holds zero water. Look around the world and you will see practices ranging from silly to downright torturous....and people defend those practices by saying "it's always been done that way". A person who says "It's okay because it's always been done this way" is a rider who has ceased to grow and improve.

When I worked operational test for the military, we took the manufacturer's claim, tried the equipment, and looked to see if what happened matched their claims. I do the same in riding. 

And that's fine....for YOU. I suppose the main difference here may just be a difference in experience. You are basing your opinion on a bunch of old books and paintings and how many horses over the last few years? 5-6? While trail riding? 

I know I'm sounding witchy but at this point I just don't care. It gets exhausting to hear over and over and over in novel posts about how people who have been _successfully_ riding/training/instructing all kinds of horses and disciplines for DECADES are just wrong, simply because YOU don't agree with what they teach....based on your experience of a few horses over the last few years and having read a few books.


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

Saddles also play a huge part in a chair seat, a saddle too small will put you in a chair seat.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Foxhunter said:


> Horses that would insist on jogging on the way home instead of walking I would sit heavy in a chair seat but with my legs under me, thus making the jog uncomfortable for the horse. As soon as it walked i became light.


But that wouldn't be a chair seat if you are keeping your leg under you, would it not? Unless you are referring purely to the position of the pelvis, which I wouldn't really call a chair seat. I certainly wouldn't take my leg off a horse who wants to run for home.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

smrobs said:


> "A seat that will help you stick a horse is a balanced seat, and you can't have a balanced seat when your feet are 6+ inches in front of the rest of your body." - @*smrobs*
> 
> Here are some unbalanced riders:
> 
> ...


Thank you! And a thousand bravos!


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## kiltsrhott (Mar 11, 2012)

ApuetsoT said:


> Why does a position initially hurting, making muscles sore, ect mean it is wrong? Just because something feels wrong it is wrong? If that the case no one would ever improve their riding.
> 
> Sure, some people have structural changes to their joints, but I've observed often people give up on something because it feels uncomfortable or hard, rather than put the time and energy into a change. And yes, I've had rides where I can hardly dismount because I hurt, but my position is better for it.


I hear you! I don't consider it a good ride if I'm not at least a little sore afterwards, but after riding in a saddle with thigh blocks, those weren't sore muscles. It was some epic joint pain. It felt like someone was trying to dislocate all of my joints from the hips down, and my lower back felt "thrown out" not just muscle sore. Forcing my lower body into place threw my whole body out of alignment. Perhaps I wasn't doing something right with my upper body, and that's what made the whole thing not come together quite right, but I'm not going to pop Advil like candy and walk around with an ice pack strapped to my lower back until I figure it out. It's not worth it.

I also agree with what @tinyliny said. The conformation of the horse can have something to do with it too. It's way easier to get my legs under myself on my flat-sided appaloosa gelding than it is on my round draft cross.

However, this doesn't mean that I won't continue to work on my position. I just intend to work on it in a way that doesn't cause me excessive pain.


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## Colby Jack Seige (Feb 1, 2016)

I JUST went through this issue myself, and let me tell you: sitting correctly is 10x more comfortable for me and my horse. I'm an english rider, and I frequently post and jump, aka I lift myself out of the saddle a ton. CJ had been having trouble going over jumps and I just couldn't figure out why. When the barn manager came outside and saw us struggling, she told me that I need to keep my feet under myself. I sat so incorrectly that I could see at least the top half of my foot at all times. For one thing, I could almost NEVER get myself out of the saddle in time, so I would land super hard on his poor little back, and he would go hollow. In addition, I was leaned so far back that when I didn't get out of the saddle in time the bit would just get yanked back in his mouth because i couldn't lean far enough forward to give him some slack. 
Once I started to force my foot to stay under me, and started using my calves to post instead of being so dependent on the stirrup, it felt like a dream ride. We were always right on beat, and he went over jumps without a problem. It wasn't even something that I had to work to get him to understand that I had fixed my position myself, he could just feel it. First time I asked him to jump he had no problem, because he knew that I was going to get up off him and give his big long neck enough room.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

i really hate a saddle with big thigh blocks!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

WhattaTroublemaker said:


> In terms of riding in general, don't we all move with the horses body and adjust our position no matter what discipline we ride, isn't that the point though? Broncs are a bit extreme but that was my point. Whatever the horse is doing one must constantly make minor adjustments to maintain balance and move with the horse.


Come now, bronc riders score by how well they spur that horse, which requires alot of leg movement, and a chair position is not just where the legs are, as you certainly have to be able to over them,for various maneuvers , as I found out, trying to ride a sliding stop in an old style equitation saddle, that more or less locks your legs in place.
You move with the horse, but sitting in a chair position, just riding along, on horse that suddenly spooks , and chances are, you will not stay with the horse
A chair position has you rotating your hips back, like you are sitting in a re cliner, so that youa re sitting on your *** cheeks.
As for stirrup length, not talking jumping, but on the flat, between English and western, my stirrups are adjusted to the exact same length, whether riding in my English saddle or my western saddle.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

BSMS, ever looked at old pictures of jumping, with the rider sitting behind the motion of the horse, versus the forward jumping seat used today?
The worst reason to do anything, is just because 'that is how it was always done!'
A cutting horse gets down low in front, while sweeping quickly from side to side, and why the rider;s feet are in the position that they are, along with that grip on the saddle horn, to stay with the horse. It has nothing to do, riding along, ona horse that suddenly spooks without warning. 
Leaning into a circle, really?Good way to be sure that the horse is going to drop that inside shoulder. How about a spin? or a lead change? You free up that inside shoulder, not weigh it down


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

ApuetsoT said:


> But that wouldn't be a chair seat if you are keeping your leg under you, would it not? Unless you are referring purely to the position of the pelvis, which I wouldn't really call a chair seat. I certainly wouldn't take my leg off a horse who wants to run for home.


The chair seat has more to do with the pelvis then the legs
To slow a western pleasure horse, you will often see an exaggerated position of the rider, sitting behind the motion of the horse


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

When you look at the drawings of Xenophon's is is not at all accurate, no horse moves its legs like that so who is to say the rider is correctly portrayed?


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Colby Jack Seige said:


> I JUST went through this issue myself, and let me tell you: sitting correctly is 10x more comfortable for me and my horse. I'm an english rider, and I frequently post and jump, aka I lift myself out of the saddle a ton. CJ had been having trouble going over jumps and I just couldn't figure out why. When the barn manager came outside and saw us struggling, she told me that I need to keep my feet under myself. I sat so incorrectly that I could see at least the top half of my foot at all times. For one thing, I could almost NEVER get myself out of the saddle in time, so I would land super hard on his poor little back, and he would go hollow. In addition, I was leaned so far back that when I didn't get out of the saddle in time the bit would just get yanked back in his mouth because i couldn't lean far enough forward to give him some slack.
> Once I started to force my foot to stay under me, and started using my calves to post instead of being so dependent on the stirrup, it felt like a dream ride. We were always right on beat, and he went over jumps without a problem. It wasn't even something that I had to work to get him to understand that I had fixed my position myself, he could just feel it. First time I asked him to jump he had no problem, because he knew that I was going to get up off him and give his big long neck enough room.


 I am also an English rider - as in actual British "English' and I agree with you on the jumping leg position but if you were to spend time in Britain you'd see that very few riders use the typical 'English' stirrup length seen in the US in hunter/jumper classes as their 'normal' English riding style. Most will use a standard type of AP/GP stirrup length which makes it far easier to have your leg in a comfortable position and still be close to correct - the shorter you have your stirrups the more strain it puts on your knee joints if your going to get your leg back underneath you and the more chance there is that your 'driving seat' will be less effective and your body position pushed into leaning forward or a hollow back to try to compensate.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

smrobs said:


> "A seat that will help you stick a horse is a balanced seat, and you can't have a balanced seat when your feet are 6+ inches in front of the rest of your body." - @*smrobs*
> 
> Here are some unbalanced riders:
> 
> ...


Bravo, my friend. Always nice to see the experienced come out and speak their mind, as a dose of reality is often necessary on boards like this.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

While the past, at times , is a useful reference, it is also not an absolute.
Were it so, doctors would still be going from the morgue to deliver women, women who then died in childbirth, because washing hands, any concept of contamination was not accepted
We would still be considering the World flat, and burning anyone who thought otherwise.
Thus, myself, I really, really find it tiresome with references to the past, in regards to riding, being considered in all cases un disputed superior facts, as if our knowledge far as horses and riding, stopped to advance and evolve, same as anything else


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> While the past, at times , is a useful reference, it is also not an absolute.
> Were it so, doctors would still be going from the morgue to deliver women, women who then died in childbirth, because washing hands, any concept of contamination was not accepted
> We would still be considering the World flat, and burning anyone who thought otherwise.
> Thus, myself, I really, really find it tiresome with references to the past, in regards to riding, being considered in all cases un disputed superior facts, as if our knowledge far as horses and riding, stopped to advance and evolve, same as anything else


Advice and techniques should be evaluated on their own merits. "Old" doesn't necessarily mean better. Neither does "new".

Newer vehicles get better gas mileage than older vehicles. On the other hand, do we really need to spend one or two thousand dollars more for a car with electrically adjusted seats that we might adjust only once in a while when seats used to be adjusted easily with a mechanical spring and lever system. Computers have certainly made typing and word processing easier, but I find it interesting that companies now generally require workers to type 45 words per minute whereas companies used to require 65 words per minute on old mechanical typewriters.

I was visited by a copier salesman while working in an office. He offered to lease the office a newer copier for "just a few dollars a month more". When asked what his copier might offer over the present copier, he could only state that it was newer. "Don't you want something newer," he asked. "Not if its not better," I replied.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

We use to be put through a routine of various exercises, some were fun like 'round the world, scissors or backward rolls' confidence and agility builders, others like leaning forward so chest was on the horse's neck or right back so your head was nearly touching their tails, were to strengthen core muscles and to get you to keep your legs in place. (Not allowed to use hands to get up or down!) I could see the point in these exercises to aid better position and inner strength but many the time where I have adopted the extreme forward or backward position when riding to either stay on if a horse has packed badly or, to avoid low branches. 

Someone who rides with a chair seat is not going to have the leg control needed for aids without bringing their leg back, it will not be instant. 

However, there are always going to be times when it is safer to be in a chair position with the upper body but, rarely should the rider's lower leg be forward. 

I was taught two things with the lower leg. First that if you look down you cannot see your toes and when you finish riding if you have long boots on there should be no marks on the outside of the seam.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

No, new is also not always better, and that was not what I really meant. I just meant always referring back to the past, as an indisputable reference and absolute, is wrong. Like with anything, you take from each, and use what works
Good horsemen did not cease to evolve, be born, as time went on
Working cowhorse trainers still use the Vaquero tradition, but trainers like Sandy Collier says much kinder techniques are now used, then in some of those 'old' Vaquero traditional training methods
Perhaps riding with balanced position should be more focused on versus worrying about what a chair position actually is. That position adapts/changes,with what the horse is doing,but always in such away that the task is made easier for the horse, and to make it easier for the rider to stay with the horse
You are not going to sit a sliding stop, from a run down, without sitting down in that saddle , and allowing your legs to come forward slightly

Part of the body language, to move a horse up into a fast circle, is to lean upper body slightly forward, and run rein hand up neck, and then to slow the horse into a slow circle, without rein contact, you sit back in normal position, with that upper body and rein hand back in neutral. Legs stay under the rider, however

Past riding references are all based on military riding, including jumping, as western saddles wenn't even invented, let alone events like reining
I think anyone involved in a discipline,be it jumping, reining, cutting, is aware of the variation of any 'classic' on the flat equitation , that discipline requires, for the various maneuvers the horse is asked to perform, in order to ride in balance with that horse, thus having both a secure seat and facilitating the ability or the horse to perform any maneuver asked for


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> No, new is also not always better, and that was not what I really meant.


I wasn't disagreeing with your post, Smilie. I was attempting to clarify and expand on topics it addressed.

It is also important to realize that different approaches to riding and training have been used during the same periods and by people of the same general groupings (i.e. nationalities, ethnic groups, occupations, etc.). And the same trainer or rider will usually change his methods as his knowledge and experience increases. As a result, our emphasis should be on addressing the individual methods themselves. And we should ask pertinent questions such as:

What is the goal of this method?
Does this method really help reach the goal?
Does this method help the horse achieve the goal or just force him towards it?
Is this method safe for the rider (or trainer)? Is it safe for the horse?
Is this method the best to use or is there a better method?


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

It feels so much better when you aren't in a 'chair' seat IMO. Feels more balanced & the horse feels better too I'm sure. Doesn't feel right sitting like that either. Balance is very important for both you AND the horse.

Basically, @smrobs took the words out of my mouth.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

A chair seat does not allow you to cue/communicate with your mount as effectively.


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