# Color/Genetics Questions!



## Kansas Spice Girl (Dec 6, 2011)

Ok so after breeding my mare last spring i became really interested in Equine Color Genetics, though i don't know a whole lot YET lol I still find it very interesting! So my first question is how can people tell the status of a horse without testing? Can you tell anything about my mare? She is Dun, has had a Grullo foal (stallion was a haflinger) her mother was a Grullo and her father was a Buckskin Overo.
My other question is about Spice's (my mare) Dam. Her name is Ben Marks "Lady" (AQHA) and was a Grullo. She has had at least 10 foals... at least, and not one of them was sorrel/chestnut, or bay. She has had everything under the sun, Palminos, Duns, Grullos ect... Is this sheer luck? or does color genetics play a roll here? Oh and Lady was bred to a variety of colors including bays and chestnuts/sorrels.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Some horses you know what certain statuses are by looking at them and their pedigree. 

For the most part though, no there is no real sure way to tell whether a horse is homozygous or heterozygous for genes. 

There are some you know for sure the status of one set of genes by looking at them (such as red based horses like chestnuts/sorrels are always ee, and cremelos are always ee CRCR).

Best advice on wanting to know what a horse will produce? Test it and know the genetic status of the horse it is being or will potentially be bred to.


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## Jacksmama (Jan 27, 2010)

Well I am no expert, lol but I do know some. She is a grulla, which means she is a black horse with the dun modifier. Are you sure her sire was a buckskin overo(tested) or is it possible he was a dun overo? That's the thing about genetics, even with a complete family history you can't always tell for sure without genetic testing. For her to have a grullo foal, it is likely she is homozygous for black because both a grulla and a buckskin have a base coat color of black, but nothing is for certain, she could still have managed to get a recessive red from one of the parents. As I am working this out in my mind,lol, a "zebra dun" (the ones that look like a buckskin) is actually a bay horse with dun. A bay is a black horse with the agouti modifier that changes the body color but not mane and tail or points(typically). She would have given a black gene no matter what, which is dominant over red and we know the Halffie had red. It IS possible however, that she does indeed have a red gene and it was just the luck of the draw. 

If her mother has had a palomino foal, correct me if I am wrong people, but I believe that means she has to have a recessive red gene hiding behind the black and the dun modifier. If not, she would have given baby a black no matter what and black is dominant over recessive red. A palomino is a red horse with a dilute gene. 

The short of it is, genetics play a HUGE part in color, and we are still learning new things about color genetics. I am like you, I find it fascinating, but it will be a long time before I understand it completely,lol. And don't EVEN get started on the LP(appy) genes, I get totally lost,lol.


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## Kansas Spice Girl (Dec 6, 2011)

Thanks NdAppy! I just though it was interesting that Lady never produced a "red" foal. She couldn't be homozygous for the Dun gene because she has had palominos correct? Also because she only had on Dun parent she couldn't be Homozygous Dun Anyways. her sire was a palomino, and her mothers color was unknown, but im assuming dun considering Lady is a Grullo. Correct me if im wrong but since she is a Grullo she doesn't carry a cream gene right? so how come she never threw "red" babies even when bred to a "red" stallion?


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

She did produce a red foal though. The palomino is red based. All horses are either red or black. Everything else is a modification of those two base coats.


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## Kansas Spice Girl (Dec 6, 2011)

NdAppy said:


> She did produce a red foal though. The palomino is red based. All horses are either red or black. Everything else is a modification of those two base coats.[/QUOT
> 
> Oh ok!!!and the foal must of gotten the cream from its sire... ok!!! lol


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## Kansas Spice Girl (Dec 6, 2011)

Jacksmama said:


> Well I am no expert, lol but I do know some. She is a grulla, which means she is a black horse with the dun modifier. Are you sure her sire was a buckskin overo(tested) or is it possible he was a dun overo? That's the thing about genetics, even with a complete family history you can't always tell for sure without genetic testing. For her to have a grullo foal, it is likely she is homozygous for black because both a grulla and a buckskin have a base coat color of black, but nothing is for certain, she could still have managed to get a recessive red from one of the parents. As I am working this out in my mind,lol, a "zebra dun" (the ones that look like a buckskin) is actually a bay horse with dun. A bay is a black horse with the agouti modifier that changes the body color but not mane and tail or points(typically). She would have given a black gene no matter what, which is dominant over red and we know the Halffie had red. It IS possible however, that she does indeed have a red gene and it was just the luck of the draw.
> 
> If her mother has had a palomino foal, correct me if I am wrong people, but I believe that means she has to have a recessive red gene hiding behind the black and the dun modifier. If not, she would have given baby a black no matter what and black is dominant over recessive red. A palomino is a red horse with a dilute gene.
> 
> The short of it is, genetics play a HUGE part in color, and we are still learning new things about color genetics. I am like you, I find it fascinating, but it will be a long time before I understand it completely,lol. And don't EVEN get started on the LP(appy) genes, I get totally lost,lol.



Spice is A Bay Dun/Zebra Dun (same thing) Her Dam... Lady was the Grulla, and Spices Sire... Scooter was FOR SURE a Buckskin Overo. If it means anything Ladys (the Grulla) Sire was a Palamino. and Scooters Sire was a Black/Overo


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

What were Lady's sire and dam?


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

I'd be willing to bet that your mare is a brown dun and not a bay dun.


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## Kansas Spice Girl (Dec 6, 2011)

NdAppy said:


> What were Lady's sire and dam?


Ladys Sire was a Palomino, and the Dam i dont know. Wouldnt she have to be a Dun or Grulla? Her Name was "Two D Adair" By "Two D Two" out of "Pony Adair"

Out of curiosity why do you think she is a brown dun?


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Her muzzle. Where is lightens is typical of browns, doesn't happen in bays.


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## Kansas Spice Girl (Dec 6, 2011)

NdAppy said:


> Her muzzle. Where is lightens is typical of browns, doesn't happen in bays.










Oh... like this you mean? 

Color Calculator
Ok... so on this foal color calcualator thing what would i put her color as? Im assuming it changes all my color probabilities correct? lol.... I have been putting her in as "Bay Dun". She is bred to a Buckskin


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Just keep putting her as a bay. Brown is just another form of agouti (bay, brown, wild bay).


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## Kansas Spice Girl (Dec 6, 2011)

NdAppy said:


> Just keep putting her as a bay. Brown is just another form of agouti (bay, brown, wild bay).


Oh man this is so confusing! Glad you know your stuff ****!


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

What stallion is she bred to? Looking at that facial marking makes me think she has frame. If the stallion has frame too, then the foal has a 25% chance to be a lethal white. Were either parent tested before being bred?


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## Kansas Spice Girl (Dec 6, 2011)

Spice may be a carrier, she is from Overo lines. We bred her to a Solid/Buckskin named Spirit and he ISNT for sure! With them both being solid... and Spirit having very few Overo Blood lines (Mostly Tobiano) chances were much lower anyway, but better safe than sorry right? 
What about her mark sticks out to you?


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Solid horses can still carry frame, and "tobiano" lines can also carry frame, as it is pretty good at staying "hidden". I see it in her in the way her face marking is top heavy and spreading out instead of down. If it was caused by splash, I would expect it to be bottom heavy or lop sided, if it was sabino I would expect it to be even all the way down.


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## Kansas Spice Girl (Dec 6, 2011)

Chiilaa said:


> Solid horses can still carry frame, and "tobiano" lines can also carry frame, as it is pretty good at staying "hidden". I see it in her in the way her face marking is top heavy and spreading out instead of down. If it was caused by splash, I would expect it to be bottom heavy or lop sided, if it was sabino I would expect it to be even all the way down.


Yes i know that Solids, and Tobianos can pass on the gene... it is just much less likely. Technically OveroxTobiano...OveroxSolid... SolidxSolid...TobianoxTobiano crosses cant result in a Lethal foal,Straight from APHA's mouth." Foals afflicted with it are primarily of overo lineage" meaning a "Tobiano" has to have primarily Overo lineage, to produce a Lethal white. An article released from APHA states the "Tobianos" said to pass on the gene are actually "toveros" So no a True Tobiano Paint will not carry it. I only said it was less likely in my case because Spirit has VERY LITTLE Overo lineage! Spice on the other hand I wouldnt doubt if she was a carrier considering her sires side consists of mostly Overos. Either way Spirit isnt a carrier lol so I guess thats a good thing


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Have you had him tested? Because that is the ONLY way to know.

The APHA is backwards and moronic in their colour registrations. "Tovero" is a lazy, catch-all term that pretty much means 'we don't know what pattern we have, so we are lumping them together'. "Overo" is anything but tobiano, which includes three different genes at least that could be causing the white. Add onto that - tobiano doesn't cause face white, so ANY tobiano with face white is technically carrying at least one other white pattern. 

EVERY horse from ANY breed known to have frame should be tested before breeding. Frame can and does hide very well. There are tested horses that are completely solid that carry frame. Judging a horse's likelihood to have frame based on the colours listed on their registration, issued by a registry that has no clue about the colours, is not a sure way to tell.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

The following horses all carry frame. The APHA would not have that listed though, because they don't recognise 'frame' as a colour, they only recognise overo.





































I could spend all day posting horses that have no body white and are frame carriers. That's how common it is.


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## Kansas Spice Girl (Dec 6, 2011)

Yes,I have already stated that Spirit is not a carrier! I agree 100% percent with what you are saying lol I am definitely not trying to argue at all!!! I am just putting the information i have been exposed to out there, if its wrong then so be it now i know... somebody should let APHA know their entire registrations is based on bull****. You are totally correct that there is no way to tell for sure without testing, I wasn't trying to say otherwise in my previous posts! I was simply stating that theiris know doubt it is less common in Tobianos and Solid-bred paints. I understand it is still possible, and should still be tested, because of its hiding factors. Thanks for the impute! and again SPIRIT IS NOT A CARRIER! lol


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Kansas Spice Girl said:


> Yes,I have already stated that Spirit is not a carrier! I agree 100% percent with what you are saying lol I am definitely not trying to argue at all!!! I am just putting the information i have been exposed to out there, if its wrong then so be it now i know... somebody should let APHA know their entire registrations is based on bull****. You are totally correct that there is no way to tell for sure without testing, I wasn't trying to say otherwise in my previous posts! I was simply stating that theiris know doubt it is less common in Tobianos and Solid-bred paints. I understand it is still possible, and should still be tested, because of its hiding factors. Thanks for the impute! and again SPIRIT IS NOT A CARRIER! lol


Has he actually been tested?


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## Kansas Spice Girl (Dec 6, 2011)

Out of curiosity the last 3 horses have similar facial markings.( is that because of the frame?) and the 2nd one is kinda lopsided like you said you would expect to see in a splash. (not that i am saying it is lol) I just want to learn more on how to recognize different markings.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Splash on the second one. Splash and possibly sabino on the third one. Splash and sabino on the fourth.


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## Kansas Spice Girl (Dec 6, 2011)

Chiilaa said:


> Has he actually been tested?


YES!!! n/n homozygous negative! He is a NON-CARRIER!!!


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Ok, no need to get so peeved. I asked if he had been tested, all you said was that he didn't have it and started telling me about his pedigree.


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## Kansas Spice Girl (Dec 6, 2011)

Chiilaa said:


> Ok, no need to get so peeved. I asked if he had been tested, all you said was that he didn't have it and started telling me about his pedigree.


Sorry if i didnt come across clearly.... and if i came off as peeved lol I guess emotions aren't displayed well across the keyboard...


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## Kansas Spice Girl (Dec 6, 2011)

Chiilaa... I know this is an absolutely terrible picture, but this is Spices father it says on his papers he is a Buckskin/Overo. Does he look like he is a Frame carrier to you?


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Yes, that also screams frame to me. The white on the body and neck, the way it stays to the middle, the way it spreads on his face.


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## Kansas Spice Girl (Dec 6, 2011)

The Sorrel is the Spices Grand-dam and the Black is her Grand-Sire.


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## Kansas Spice Girl (Dec 6, 2011)

Now i feel like i should of gotten her tested as well... Her Grandsire's facial marking kind of looks like a larger version of hers!


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

both grand sire and grand dam are frame as well


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## Kansas Spice Girl (Dec 6, 2011)

NdAppy said:


> both grand sire and grand dam are frame as well


Thanks NdAppy!


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## Kansas Spice Girl (Dec 6, 2011)

Chiilaa said:


> Yes, that also screams frame to me. The white on the body and neck, the way it stays to the middle, the way it spreads on his face.


Thanks you have been so helpful!!!


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## Kansas Spice Girl (Dec 6, 2011)

So I have been trying to do more research on patterns, and have found it all really interesting!!!! Even though Spirit tested negative as a carrier for frame, I still looked back into his pedigree at the few Overos that were their and i thought I would post them for everyone's thoughts!!! 
So the first one is actually registered "Tovero" haha I know how you all feel about that!


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