# Why is cantering so hard (for horses)?



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

I rarely have seen horses with issues cantering unless there was something off with rider, the horse or a combination of both. Usually the rider and poor balance or lack of skill set needed.


----------



## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

QtrBel said:


> I rarely have seen horses with issues cantering unless there was something off with rider, the horse or a combination of both. Usually the rider and poor balance or lack of skill set needed.


That's what I thought, too, when it was just me and Pony. But these other two horses were being ridden by fairly decent riders. Plus these are the only three horses I've ever known that were being trained, and all three of them had problems. 

Maybe it's just coincidence.


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

It may be the added combination of that particular trainer. Even a decent rider may not and I suspect in this case does not know how to help the horse help himself.


----------



## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Ditto both @QtrBel ’s posts. 

I started a handful of my grandfather’s young horses, two of my own, and finished a few green broke horses I bought. I never had any of the issues you describe. I never used a saddle either; poor saddle fit may be an issue in some of the instances you are seeing but not likely with every horse.

Keep in mind, not every trainer really is one - in spite of how much they think of themselves — and that is only part of why I am still so thankful for my beloved grandfather being the horse wings under my feet


----------



## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

All horses have a dominant side just like humans.
Right side, left side....but there is a dominant side and direction that animal works better, is more comfortable to ride him at...
To get a "balanced" horse you must work the weaker side more..which is harder work for both of you and no where near as comfortable to ride.

Would you want to do something that makes you off-balance....put a rider astride and you just changed everything again for that animal.
Don't care how good a rider you are, _you move..._
You sway, your back, hips and spine absorbs motion but to a highly sensitive horse who naturally balances....nope.
You being astride just dramatically changed the center of balance of that horse....add your bodies motions, your arms and hands wiggling/moving, your legs changing contact spot and degree of firmness felt...
We riders are a mess of contradictions sent to the sensitive horse under us. When they can feel a fly on their skin, they are sensitive animals to nuances of touch.

Stepping off into a canter...do it right or the horse is unbalanced.
Which hoof strikes the ground as you ask for take-off?
Where do you start your cantering in a ring?
How do you set your horse up for departure as he struggles to learn how to carry you forward?
A lot of people are never taught those small details, but you set your horse up for success or failure by where the animal is in his striding to have a smooth departure and balanced canter or a washing machine feeling under you.
Can you canter off from a stand-still on the correct lead?
Can you trot and gently squeeze off to a canter and not gain speed but literally a rocking chair feeling arrives...

All horses can canter/gallop at birth...they run, gallop across the plains to flee prey in the wild within a hour of birth.
It is us humans who mess up some of the fine-tuned balance mechanisms a horse is born with.
When you learn how to read your horses motion, to feel with spine and seat bones the footfalls you then know when to ask for that departure.
You know when entering a bend how to counter balance your mount....
Oh yes, there is science to be a soft, quiet and balanced rider.
There is a reason why dressage is called "poetry in motion"... when done well you don't see motion just team work. Working together for success not failure starts with small things like a footfall and order of it happening....
🐴.... _jmo..._


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Most horses can canter fine without a human. But a human's weight, particularly too far back, make it hard for the horse to elevate the hindquarters - which is needed for a canter. Bandit had to canter with up to 300 lbs on his 800 lb body, so his canter departure is...energetic. I got rid of my YouTube channel so I don't have the video of slow motion cantering, but these stills show how the rear rocks up:






Tough for a light horse with a very heavy rider, or any horse with a rider who sits too heavy. Also tough is someone wants a soft transition. It is just easier to hurdle into a canter but a lot of folks resent a horse doing that.

Also, a lot of humans get upset if a horse leans into a turn. But that IS the easiest way for them to turn at speed. They want the horse to 'bend around their leg' while staying vertical and horses aren't designed to do that. But a little lean can solve a lot of problems for the horse:






Doesn't take much. I'll happily never experience this...at least, not if I have a choice:






But we want horses to canter in a way that makes them easy to sit and I think a lot of horses struggle with that. And I STILL don't know how to properly cue a canter. I just lean forward and kiss, and in the next step or two he transitions. His way. He doesn't need my help. Just needs me to give him freedom.


----------



## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

Bravo Walkin.....BOOM!!
Hit it squarely on the head as did QtrBel....

There are trainers/instructors and then there are self-impressed wannabe's....
You know the difference when your horse suddenly starts to ride easier, more balanced and the impulsion appears you never knew was missing.
You're no longer fighting each other, but mesh and become a team.
🐴....


----------



## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

Well the timing of your post is great. Yesterday my instructor got on Katie and had a 30min schooling session with a fair bit of canter. It wasn't the plan but I'm glad it happened because she was magnificent to watch. You know I've often heard the sayings "leg in each corner" and "he/she really keeps them together".. well the latter one finally made sense. Katie goes fast with me, motorbikes and in an effort to balance, I lose my seat, my leg, my hands  Thankfully she keeps me upright and staggers to a stop when I begin to topple. She's 100% motorbiking coz of me lol. I could only understand and compare by watching _my own _mare right? So_,_ Instructor gets on, already has the expected air of confidence about her. It was like watching a totally different horse! The fancy moves she busted out, haunches in, lovely leg yielding. She was asking for more power, really moving out, holding her together. She sat the trot for the full session!  (Since I've known Katie no one has maintained a sitting trot for more than a minute much less the whole freaking session!) I would have been panicking and asking Katie to slow. Giving the canter cue at the perfect moment. It was so good it was disgusting but that's what I pay for so... Katie will kick out sometimes going into left lead but that is more of a sticky hock sometimes + her bad side. Turns out prepping her properly and cuing correctly helps who would have thought. I made a lot of notes.

So what I deduced from all this is its entirely me lol so yeah I'm gonna place it on the rider. Katie is pretty darn good going both ways. Her bad side isn't _reallllly_ bad, just fine really when you compare to some of your examples, which btw is a thing here as well. Plenty horses here struggle cantering with a rider and honestly the way they go about forcing it brings a bad taste to my mouth. Like the horse is knackered, stop asking already on such a small circle in footing they aren't used to... Anyway. You know what I really noticed though in my instructors riding.. she was really active but not really noisy. She was far stronger in hand and leg, but soft. But _stronger, _by a LOT. It was just powerful to watch. Have you ever felt like that watching your instructor ride? I've watched a fair few qualified and quality people ride Katie, all of them preferred or specialised in jumping, but this is the first dressage person/coach I've had on her. Wow, the difference is phenomenal. I'm still kinda in shock tbh.

ps I'm not saying people that jump or specialise don't know how to dressage or aren't good. It's just seeing a proper dressage rider go for it. Seeing that power being used and condensed up close was amazing.


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

bsms said:


> I STILL don't know how to properly cue a canter. I just lean forward and kiss, and in the next step or two he transitions. His way. He doesn't need my help. Just needs me to give him freedom.​


And this works too for those that have learned to get entirely out of the horses way. But for many that is just not where they are at.


----------



## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

QtrBel said:


> And this works too for those that have learned to get entirely out of the horses way. But for many that is just not where they are at.


This is how I canter as well atm. "Uh.. when you're ready and your legs good please kindly canter left" smooch smooch 🤣


----------



## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

You just made me chuckle Kalraii....and that is the thing...
You need to know to be able to ride with it, teach it to the animal and to students if you are a instructor/trainer.
To ride with impulsion but engaged, a working unit you do use "dressage" to learn the finesse of ask firmly but softly and get out of the way when the horse responds and does as you asked.
I'm trained H/J rider, but have a smattering of dressage in me cause my foundation instructors knew it and incorporated the parts that would benefit me as that H/J rider....a mixture.
All well-rounded riders have a smattering of many disciplines in their training.

My friend {now retired} rode and put the training into making some very upper level dressage horses....the polishing, finishing touches she did not do.
When she worked with my horse when he was a mess because he was unbalanced on the ground...his foundation of how to travel was missing.
Once he learned he was incredible horse...
The execution of setting the horse up correctly for success not failure....
I learned how to do this by riding her accomplished horse and watching her many evenings on mine...she was one of my instructors and great friend.
But the trainer/instructor needs to know what it is needs taught, and how to teach that to their students...
Wannabes and the real thing...now you know the difference Kalraii as you just saw.
AC, I hope gets the chance to ride and experience what it is you did and sit on her horse to feel that communication you just witnessed.
🐴... _jmo.._


----------



## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

Kalraii said:


> This is how I canter as well atm. "Uh.. when you're ready and your legs good please kindly canter left" smooch smooch 🤣


Yup, me too. Pony and I have an agreement that he will canter when I ask, and on the correct lead, but I need to let him know that that's what I want and then let him pick it up when he's ready, which is typically either when I ask or a step or two afterwards. He's very much a Pony, and doesn't like to have things entirely forced on him. When you give him a bit of a say, he is happier. When I force it into it, he falls onto his forehand.

The trainer who has been riding him, yes, she can get a lot more out of him than I can. She's been great for him. She has worked through his problems with patience, kindness, understanding, and a willingness to be a partner. She is not the same person who is working on the other horses. I do think, now that @QtrBel mentions it, that is part of what is making a difference with them. My trainer never rushes anything. No doubt my poor riding contributed to his cantering problems, too.


----------



## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

I've started horses that had difficulty learning to canter with a rider and ones that found it very easy. There are some important factors. Even though every horse knows how to canter from birth, some horses are not balanced well to carry a rider. If they have to lift their head very high or put it low to stay balanced, then adding a rider will make things worse. Any horse with a weak hind end will struggle. If you have a horse that is naturally very balanced and can canter in small circles on their own, it is almost guaranteed that they will easily learn to canter with a rider. If the horse has difficulty balancing on their own, it is almost guaranteed that they will struggle with a rider. 

This horse was strong and her first canter with a rider was smooth and easy.








This horse was only 13.2 hands but well balanced and strong: easy.








This horse, no bucking, easy:










Weak hind end: Hard










Awkward natural balance, having to raise the neck high cantering naturally: Very hard








Same horse, showing how her natural balance often was difficult.









If you add a poorly fitted saddle, especially putting the rider's weight too far forward, and/or a rider that can't help the horse, it becomes even more difficult for the horse.


----------



## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

QtrBel said:


> And this works too for those that have learned to get entirely out of the horses way.


That's always been my goal. I once observed a dressage rider from Spain while I was still a teen. An American asked him how he got such good transitions and "i try to stay out of the horse's way" was his response. 

Great goal, in my opinion. 

The only horses that seemed awkward to me when starting to canter under saddle were OTT Standardbreds. That was a training and musculature thing and they soon adapted.


----------



## ladygodiva1228 (Sep 5, 2012)

My Saddlebred has no issues with cantering, but my cob on the other hand struggles sometimes. She tries so hard to please, but I think due to her short strides and stocky (fat) body it is a bit harder for her. Even when in the paddock running around she gets a bit off balance once in a while. She thinks she's faster than Scarlett and always gets smoked.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

If only every learning rider could learn how to canter on a horse that knows how to do it with ANYONE on board! But, no. most of us struggle and struggle and flail around until it gets easier. I never did get enough time at the canter that it became truly easy. but, the horse that I leased for a few years with a nice "Western" lope, well, he made it seem easy, God Bless Him!


----------



## Zimalia22 (Jun 15, 2021)

l will never understand the draw for English, but that's beside the point. Now that pic of the horse turning hard, Thats a BLAST! Especially when they drag your feet in the dirt! 
Back in the day, when we'd start a colt, we nearly always had the colt into a lope by the 3rd ride. 
it just drives home, again, the differences between English and Western riding. Western is all I know, and I'm good with that. 
I honestly thought when training English, it was the same. Move the colt on out get on with the training. 
Interesting thread.


----------



## lb27312 (Aug 25, 2018)

@Zimalia22 - not being honery but English riding has I think been around longer than Western.... growing up I had never seen an English saddle... very back woods Ozarks.... only Western.... I went with some friends to the Azores and we wanted to do a trail ride so went to a local stable, they only had ENGLISH saddles!! What the heck?! I had never been on an English saddle much less ridden on a trail! I was being a drama queen on that one... I can't ride English! Whatev my friends said, get on the horse! I did.... and what a great ride!! There was one part of the trail that was a steep drop and I said.... this is where I'm coming off... nope! It was great!

I honestly think people that have ridden English can have a better seat. jmho

Oops sorry for hijacking a post that wasn't the original question! Sorry again!

I think most horses it's easy to canter?? Mine canter in the field often and when I cue them in the saddle they pretty much have an easy canter, this is usually on the trail, haven't been in an arena much.


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Canter is a natural gait. And, unless the saddle doesn't fit it is irrelevant to whether the horse can canter or not. It isn't English vs Western saddle or discipline nor is it arena (ring) vs field or even track. Cues are also irrelevant as for what the actual cue is. You can teach a horse to respond to anything. Where your legs are concerned there are positions that keep you balanced and don't hinder movement when asking but not everyone will use the exact same cue and that cue may have slight variations for the rider depending on the horse they are on. That said there are somewhat "universal" cues discipline to discipline. Similar but perhaps not quite the same. Still asking for the same thing. There are things a good rider and trainer know to use to help make it easier for the horse to understand what is being asked and achieve that goal. Some are instinctive and others taught.


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

3rd ride or 30th depends on the horse and rider. For me - my first experiences training were drafts. Driving was the goal. Riding was icing on the cake. There were those that cantered first ride.

The basics are the same. Forward and back. Left and Right. Walk, trot, canter/lope and gallop for some.


----------



## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

Zimalia... the draw is the same for me whether English, western or anything else as long as it involves horses.
As long as I can remember, from the youngest childhood days I have been in love with and fascinated by horses.

If you are thinking the intricacies of hoof placement is from the English discipline riding....no.
That tidbit of wisdom actually came from the then world reining open-champion as he walked through the indoor arena late one afternoon and watched me struggling...
He came into the ring and worked with me on my 17 hand black Thoroughbred and started me headed in a better direction 
The next day he had me astride one of his horses in training to truly feel the difference and understand what I was doing and what it should of been and would feel like when "I" got it....
The horse knew, it was me _in his way _making it a mess.. 
That reining trainer also spoke with my friend about what he saw and it was then we didn't just hack/ride but my education and that of my horse started to get the holes filled in that made a difference in my horses abilities going forth. 
My friend was tenfold better a rider than I and near anyone else I know and I know some great ones from the times of them being junior riders.
_But it was a *western* rider who started that ball rolling...

AC, as you can see all horses know how to canter._
_It though is often us as riders not knowing/understanding there is a way to assist our mount to achieve the goal of balanced ride and change of gait...by our being a bit more aware is all it takes.
But, but unless taught that tidbit to help our horse, you don't know._
_Do ask your trainer, the one who works with Pony and given you much improvement...have a feeling she knows and not realize you don't know about it._
🐴


----------



## BethR (Feb 17, 2021)

My biggest problem with getting Angelina to “canter” is when I asked her to, she’d take off like she was leading the the cavalry charge. It’d take me a minute or so to bring her back into a nice easy lope. Never did resolve that issue!


----------



## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

Usually, horses that struggle to canter or lope are sore, unfit or the rider is inhibiting them in some way. 

A rider that's balanced and works with the horse can lope a horse around a pen on it's first, second or third rides. Personally, I like to get the first lope out of the way as soon as possible so it's a non-issue in the future.

Sometimes, I think many green-er riders are so concerned about staying aboard or keeping the horse at a comfortable speed at a lope or canter that they forget the horse still needs support. Depending on the horse, that could mean more leg or outside rein or whatever combo usually helps that horse be balanced. It takes a pretty solid seat to be able to do that. 

Today while I was loping out to go return some cows to where they belong, i set my reins down and took my hair out of the loose bun it was falling out of and put it into a pony tail 
It was a "look mom, no hands!" situation 🤣


----------



## Zimalia22 (Jun 15, 2021)

Amen to that QHriderKE! It takes a rider that is balanced and works with the horse. We liked to get the first lope in usually on the 3rd ride so that it's just another part of the training. Same as a back cinch, or spurs, all just part of it. 
By putting the lope off, it makes it into a much bigger deal than it has to be. By including it early, its no big deal after that.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Have you tried cantering in a half-seat? Or two point?


----------



## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

@Zimalia22, @QHriderKE and I were just talking about that! I’ve put off loping only twice, as for us it was always a first ride thing. Zeus, who little girl rides, was very young when she started crawling onto his back (She was very small herself.). So, it was different to start a colt who already knew all the basics. The lope was kind of an issue though. He just thought he shouldn’t, and it took putting up a round corral and having someone on the ground for me to get it for her. After that he was fine.

The filly I’m starting right now is too young too, so I didn’t ask her to lope yet as I’ve played around. She’s big, but I decided to wait until this fall to actually ask her to lope. I did finally long trot a big ride on her bareback, but I’ve just been waiting. She’s naturally a broncy nasty thing, and I adore her for it, but we will see if not loping bites me in the but when I finally let her break.

ETA- she won’t have a problem breaking into a lope by any means, she’s a very forward horse and an athlete; it’s only that she may scare herself and think it’s a big deal because she hasn’t done it yet.

Maybe that’s what’s going on with the op’s examples, but I’m also betting poor riding.


----------



## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

Knave said:


> Maybe that’s what’s going on with the op’s examples, but I’m also betting poor riding.


Yes, this has been really informative. I mean, if you see something happening 100% of the time, you start to assume it's just the way things are. I have no doubt that my poor riding contributed to Pony's problems, and now that I think about it the woman who rides the other two isn't actually a trainer, she's just one of the better riders at our barn. I don't think she is able to think about what a horse is doing and actually help it along. She's just good at not falling off. Plus she's working under the barn owner, who tends to assume horses are being deliberately disobedient rather than asking what the horse needs to help it. 

This has all been very helpful.


----------



## Zimalia22 (Jun 15, 2021)

horselovinguy said:


> Zimalia... the draw is the same for me whether English, western or anything else as long as it involves horses.
> As long as I can remember, from the youngest childhood days I have been in love with and fascinated by horses.
> 
> If you are thinking the intricacies of hoof placement is from the English discipline riding....no.
> ...


Its the difference in where you are verses where I am. Here, if we see someone riding english, everyone stops and stares. Honestly, I had NO IDEA as many people ride english as there are until I got online way back years ago. It still amazes me.


----------



## ferricyanide (Jan 14, 2020)

Zimalia22 said:


> By putting the lope off, it makes it into a much bigger deal than it has to be. By including it early, its no big deal after that.


Why is this? I wouldn't consider myself a trainer but I have started a few and we never prioritized loping early and also didnt have any loping issues. I am currently starting 1 but she is 2 and I am keeping it to short walks since she is young. I guess I don't see how baby steps would cause an issue.


The gelding I have is gaited and I am suspicious that since he was gaited and green, he wasn't loped. We had a little trouble initially, but got it sorted out. I am not sure if it was a lack of practice or having clown feet was his main issue. He would try to just gait really fast instead, so we had to ask for a fast canter to keep him at a canter instead of a gait. So we did that for a while and worked on slowing him down. We havent mastered flying lead changes but he doesnt seem to mind one lead over another. He only ever bucked on me once and we figured out his back was bothering him that day. These days when I hear about bucking I generally wonder if there is something causing pain.


----------



## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

OK after having mentally digested this for a while, I have a follow up.

It seems that what I got from answers is that (1) no, cantering shouldn't be a big deal, (2) as long as the rider is able to help the horse through any issues it has. Am I mis-reading the general thrust of the comments? If I'm not, then this seems a little contradictory. If cantering isn't something that most horses have problems with, then why do they need a rider who can help them through any issues?

The woman who was riding some of these horses is a competent rider. She's no trainer. It took me until I really thought about everything in this thread to realize that there is a difference: that just because someone is a competent rider, that doesn't mean they can train a horse. Being able to stay on when the horse acts up, and then just asking for more of the same, I guess eventually you can get to where the horse more or less stops acting up. But you maybe haven't really gotten to the root of the problem. For instance, my trainer rode one of those horses the other day and I asked her about him. She said yes he tried to buck her off several times. I asked her why he did this, and she said he seems worried and confused. She noted he also has issues with over-responding to cues. Based on that, she has stuff she wants to do with him, and ways she wants to work with him. Whereas the other woman who was riding him, her goal was simply to not let him buck her off, and to just keep doing the same thing over and over again until he finally learns to deal with it.

And thinking back on it, the people who the barn owner put on Pony at the beginning to train him, they weren't trainers either. They were competent riders.

I'm now wondering if that's why many of her horses buck at the canter. They weren't ever properly trained, they were just ridden until they mostly stopped acting up.

So would you guys agree that it takes more than a just competent rider to work a horse through issues it might have about being ridden, whether it's cantering or something else? It takes someone who can actually understand WHY the horse is having problems, and then work on solving them?

What do you guys think?


----------



## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

ACinATX said:


> ...So would you guys agree that it takes more than a just competent rider to work a horse through issues it might have about being ridden, whether it's cantering or something else? It takes someone who can actually understand WHY the horse is having problems, and then work on solving them?
> 
> What do you guys think?


I would agree, except some horses are smart enough to work through issues on their own, so it can happen without the help of the rider. Sometimes if a rider just sticks with it long enough, the horse will figure out how to fix the problem. But if the horse can't do that, then the rider's understanding and help are what will improve the issue with the horse. 

Even for great trainers, it can often be a theory of why the horse is having issues. So a trainer may not understand exactly why the horse is having problems, but they should try different theories based on what they suspect, to see which approach helps. Many people just try forcing the horse through, without trying to figure out what is causing the issue. That will have a much lower success rate.


----------



## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

I would think it is something they are doing, yes. I don’t necessarily believe the rider needs to teach the horse how to work through loping, but only that loping is just another thing they can do with a rider. It is easy enough for a person to throw a horse off balance, which can make things difficult for them. The first time often makes the horse nervous too, and maybe the reaction to that caused these horses to snowball?

Somehow something has happened in their minds about it. Maybe everyone made it a big deal to them.

I don’t think a person needs to be a “trainer,” in name, but a person starting a horse should theoretically know what they are doing in starting a colt or work with someone who does.

I finally loped the Queen (remember I talked about being worried about having waited for too long and possibly that making it a big deal to her), and she didn’t mind at all.


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

ACinATX said:


> If cantering isn't something that most horses have problems with, then why do they need a rider who can help them through any issues?


It isn't that they need a rider that can help them canter if they can canter with no problem - it is that they need a rider that doesn't interfere with their ability. On a horse that can canter a rider that can't may or may not be an issue.. Those WITH cantering problems need riders that can help them through. Putting a rider that can't ride effectively on a horse that can't canter effectively compounds the issue.


----------

