# Horse Slaughter



## PechosGoldenChance

Hey ya'll! I'm doing a final project for my composition class and we had to choose a topic with a good argument so what better to choose than horse slaughtering. Thats what my topic is. I was wondering, if anyone has an information or can find any articles...that would be just AWESOME!!!
thanks so much guys!


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## Brighteyes

Sounds fun. 


I recommend searching "horse slaughter" in the forum search engine and looking back at all of our old discussions. Lots of good information on both sides. 

Speaking of both sides, make sure you look at both sides of the debate! Horse slaughter articles are sometimes biased like crazy!


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## wild_spot

^ I love your siggy Brighteyes :]

Pechos, the two articles I posted in the other thread are fairly good, and unbiased.


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## Brighteyes

wild_spot said:


> ^ I love your siggy Brighteyes :]
> 
> Pechos, the two articles I posted in the other thread are fairly good, and unbiased.


 
Thanks, Wild Spot! It was one of the nursery rhymes in a book I found recently and I thought it was cute.


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## Snapple122

Is it really nessesary to have another thread about this? Isn't there a recent thread about virtually the same thing?


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## kevinshorses

*Range *magazine is a quarterly publication that focuses on the political side of rural life among other things but this quarter(spring) there are a couple of articles about horse slaughter and feral horses (mustangs). While certainly not unbiased they are well written and backed up with evidence and sources are cited.

Home on the RANGE


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## iridehorses

Excellent article. I find it interesting, and very irritating, that the anti-slaughter advocates are usually urbanites who have no idea about ranch life and little or no knowledge of their economics. 

Even if the horse was to be considered "pet" and not "livestock", the SPCAs "slaughter" unwanted pets daily and there is no uproar over that.


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## alli09

try facebooks cloud the stallions stuff. They focus on the round up of wild horses for slaughter.

Welcome to Facebook | Facebook


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## alli09

iridehorses said:


> Excellent article. I find it interesting, and very irritating, that the anti-slaughter advocates are usually urbanites who have no idea about ranch life and little or no knowledge of their economics.
> 
> Even if the horse was to be considered "pet" and not "livestock", the SPCAs "slaughter" unwanted pets daily and there is no uproar over that.


I don't want to start a debate on here, but there is a fine line between slaughter and euthanasia.


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## iridehorses

alli09 said:


> I don't want to start a debate on here, but there is a fine line between slaughter and euthanasia.


A humane death is death no matter how it is delivered. Unfortunately the use of the word "slaughter" gives the wrong impression, even if it is sometimes deserved. In talking to my vet, he's told me of horror stories of vet administrated euthanasia that when terribly wrong.


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## savvylover112

I agree with one of the above posters do we really need another thread on this when there is a recent one that has only just died down a bit?


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## kevinshorses

alli09 said:


> try facebooks cloud the stallions stuff. They focus on the round up of wild horses for slaughter.
> 
> Welcome to Facebook | Facebook


 
There has not been ONE wild horse rounded up for slaughter since they were protected and "managed" by the BLM sometime in the 60's.


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## iridehorses

One nice thing about a forum is that a member can chose to read any thread - if one finds it annoying, simply ignore it. 

Although there are and have been many threads about slaughter, it seems to supply never ending fuel for discussion. As long as it is informative and stays civil, there is no reason not to have another one. (This is a subject that county (RIP) would always enjoy.)


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## alli09

kevinshorses said:


> There has not been ONE wild horse rounded up for slaughter since they were protected and "managed" by the BLM sometime in the 60's.


it was all over the news. They chase them with helicopters.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## maura

alli -

The BLM may round mustangs up, but they're no longer rounded up for *slaughter*. They're usually rounded up and held at a BLM facility awaitng adoption or death from old age. 

There are no longer slaughter houses open in the US.

I looked at the link you provided. The organization is trying to prevent the roundup and removal of a specific band of mustangs from a specific section of grazing land that apparently the BLM has other plans for. 

I saw no mention of slaughter or helicopters.


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## iridehorses

maura, I believe they just reopened or are about to open one in WY. Montana is not far behind.


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## alli09

maura said:


> alli -
> 
> 
> 
> I looked at the link you provided. The organization is trying to prevent the roundup and removal of a specific band of mustangs from a specific section of grazing land that apparently the BLM has other plans for.
> 
> I saw no mention of slaughter or helicopters.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alli09

Again it was all over the news.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lis

All I can find is they use helicopters to round them up then if they are injured they shoot them back at the BLM holding facility. In my research I read that it had been made illegal for someone who adopted a wild horse to send them for slaughter and illegal for the BLM to hand over titles if they knew they were planning on sending them for slaughter. Although this may not be true as I don't know how reliable the website was so feel free to research for yourself.


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## PechosGoldenChance

Snapple and Savvylover: Yea I posted this before I even read the other articles, or even found them. 

Thanks for the advice everyone, and the articles too!!


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## Airspace1

*Truth be told and Exposed for what it is..*

Horse slaughter is clearly a reward for irresponsible people. Sadly abuse and neglect will remain but slaughter will end. Thus abuse and neglect will drop. Only the ones that promote it will be the ones to continue to abuse and neglect. These are the people that should be locked up..

Horse slaughter is support also by industries that promote overbreeding for papers. These industries have NO HISTORY to helping or donating to any horse rescues in America. They rather feed people bull crap about down markets etc Bo Ho..

Fact is if they support Anti slaughter they would lose money.. They know they cant exist by doing the right thing. Similar to our aging humans they are treated as throw aways that sometimes not even family members care for there own kind.. and many retirement homes are hurting..

Horse rescue could be a much easier problem to fix by donating by the very people who are making money off them but they dont..

Horse plants in Texas Beltex and Dallas crown were own by foreigner that didnt pay gross income tax nor tariff tax on there exports. Plus they hire illegals to do there dirty work while our tax dollars went to keep illegals out. Plus our tax dollars were going to USDA inspectors to make sure the meat was safe yet they ignored the drugs in horses such as brute, steriods, wormers, etc. Why because it wasnt eaten in America. 

The beef industry supports horse slaughter because a rumor of stopping horse slaughter will stop beef products.. What a bunch of lies..

These industries know if they can get into the market they will be set in a black market but truth is Horse meat is demand is decresing and isnt desired as it once was. Maybe because horse meat was an expensive meal and eaten by older people. young people are more educated to know what is good to eat and what is bad to eat.

for more info visit www.kaufmanzoning.net.


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## Airspace1

Fellow Horse Advocate, 



On March 30, 2010 the Canadian Horse Defence Coalition released its latest investigative reports on two of Canada 's largest horse slaughter plants, Bouvry Exports in Alberta and Richelieu Meats in Quebec :



*Chambers of Carnage - A Sweeping Undercover Investigation of Canada 's Leading Equine Slaughterhouses*



Video cameras captured footage at both facilities in late February 2010. What is happening to our horses in these plants is horrible beyond words. The footage is difficult to view as they contain images of horses meeting their end at the barrel of a gun. Those fortunate enough to go down quickly are spared the suffering of many that do not meet their end so quickly or painlessly. If you find it hard to watch the footage, there are also footage indexes that you can read instead.



Links to these reports are on our website at: http://www.defendhorsescanada.org .




*From **World Society for the Protection of Animals (WSPA)* 

_"The World Society for the Protection of Animals (WSPA) is appalled by evidence of grossly inhumane slaughter of horses taking place in Canada . We have been sent video footage that is stated to have been taken recently in Bouvry Exports Calgary Ltd slaughterhouse in Fort Macleod, Alberta and Viande Richelieu Inc./Richelieu Meat Inc. slaughterhouse in Massueville , Quebec . _
_It is clear that neither the facilities nor the behaviour of the personnel shown are suited to the humane slaughter of horses, and that extreme suffering results for many individual animals. Problems include failure to restrain each animal's head properly before shooting, shooting from too great a distance, shooting in the wrong part of the head or body, failure to follow up with an immediate second shot in animals that were not killed by the first, hoisting apparently conscious animals, and - in the case of the Richelieu plant - cruel handling and treatment of the horses, including excessive whipping and overuse of an electric prod as well as an apparent callous disregard for the animals' suffering. An additional cause of very major concern is the presence of what appear to be either plant supervisors or inspectors who observe the employees' actions and yet do nothing."_
*From Nicholas H. Dodman, D.V.M., one of the world's most noted and celebrated veterinary behaviorists, a founding member of Veterinarians for Equine Welfare and Tufts University School of Veterinary Medicine Professor*
_“Noise, blood and suffering is what you get at the Bouvry equine slaughter plant: Horses kicking after they have been shot, sinking down and rising up; sometimes periods of struggling or paddling before a second or third shot has to be administered. This atrocity goes against all veterinary guidelines for humane euthanasia. Terror and suffering is the rule at this equine house of horrors ... and all in the name of the gourmet meat market.”_
*From Alberta Veterinarian Dr. Debi Zimmermann*
_"I conclude that the wary and flighty nature of the horse, coupled with the poorly designed kill plant systems currently in place at Bouvry Exports and Viande Richelieu, results in unacceptable levels of suffering endured by horses (both in number of horses and degree of suffering), and poses inherent dangers to plant personnel. The shooters are seldom able to adhere to the required protocols for euthanasia by firearm, due to a combination of horse and human factors."_
The CHDC asks you to take action and let the CFIA know that this suffering will not be accepted! There are only 4 operating horse slaughter plants in Canada , yet these are the substandard conditions we can be sure are prevalent at all of them. Horses cannot be humanely killed in an assembly-line fashion. This evidence makes it abundantly clear.
Please contact:
*Hon. Gerry Ritz*
Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food (Minister that oversees the CFIA)
613 Confederation Bldg., House of Commons
Ottawa , Ontario K1A 0A6
Email: [email protected]
Website:www.gerryritzmp.com
Tel: 613-995-7080; Fax: 613-996-8472
*Ms. Carole Swan, President*
Canadian Food Inspection Agency
59 Camelot Drive
Ottawa , Ontario K1A 0Y9
Email: [email protected]
Website: www.inspection.gc.ca/english/toce.shtml
Tel: 613-221-3737; Fax: 613-228-6608

*Dr. Brian Evans*
Chief Veterinary Officer of Canada
Canadian Food Inspection Agency
59 Camelot Drive , Floor 1, East Room 100
Ottawa , Ontario K1A 0Y9
Email: [email protected]
Website: www.inspection.gc.ca/english/toce.shtml
Tel: 613-221-4191; Fax 613-228-6608
*Also contact your Member of Parliament via this link. Click on his or her name to find their contact information: *
http://webinfo.parl.gc.ca/MembersOfParliament/MainMPsCompleteList.aspx?TimePeriod=Current&Language=E 



*Please do it for the horses! *


All of the footage compilations from Bouvry and Richelieu have been uploaded onto YouTube here: www.youtube.com/twylafrancois
Also please visit our Memorial Page for horses killed at Bouvry Exports and Richelieu Meats: http://www.defendhorsescanada.org/forthehorses/index.php 

Feel free to post this message on social networking sites to encourage others to take action for the horses.



Thank you.















Shelley Grainger
Canadian Horse Defence Coalition
www.defendhorsescanada.org


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## mls

Airspace1 said:


> Horse slaughter is clearly a reward for irresponsible people.


Wrong.

Horses are sent to slaughter for many reasons. Not everyone who must put a horse on a truck is irresponsible.


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## kevinshorses

alli09 said:


> Again it was all over the news.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


*Again, you are wrong*. Since the BLM has taken control of "wild" horses they have not at any time been used for slaughter. The BLM does use helicopters to gather the horses and then they put them up for adoption or put them in long term holding facilities and feed them for the rest of thier lives. They are NEVER slaughtered. EVER. It is ILLEGAL to sell a mustang for slaughter. The kill buyers that I know don't even bid on a horse if it looks like it might be a mustang. There are severe penalties for that and other horses are plentiful and easy to come by. *You should pay closer attention to the news.*


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## kevinshorses

Airspace1 said:


> Horse slaughter is clearly a reward for irresponsible people. Sadly abuse and neglect will remain but slaughter will end. Thus abuse and neglect will drop. Only the ones that promote it will be the ones to continue to abuse and neglect. These are the people that should be locked up..
> 
> .


That is pretty shaky logic. I think you should open your mind, do more research than can be done on youtube and educate yourself on some facts.


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## maura

Here's a couple of my posts from a previous thread on this topic:

Who participating in this conversation has assisted with a chemical euthanasia?

Who participating in this conversaton has assissted with euthanasia by bullet or captive bolt? 

A persistent fallacy often repeated in this threads is that euthanasia by injection is inherently "more humane" than euthanasia by bullet or captive bolt. 

I am willing to bet that anyone who has witnessed or assisted both methods will tell you that bullet or captive bolt is quicker/more humane. I have assisted at both and that is my very firm opinion. It is emotionally upsetting to *me* to have the horse destroyed by bullet, but it is quicker and more humane for the horse. 

There is also a persistent fallacy in the emotional agruments on this issue that it's somehow better/ethically superior to bury the carcass after whatever method of euthanasia.

Again, how many of the people proposing that burial is somehow better have actually *done* it? Not paid someone to do for you while you're gone from the barn, but dug the hole, transported the body by whatever method, and buried it? Or hauled an old, injured or sick animal to the land fill to be euthanized on site because that was the only option in your locality?

There is nothing warm and fuzzy, dignified, nice or even vaguely comforting about it. 

If, in the future, these conversations were limited to people who had actual, hands on experience with the issues we're discussing, rather than internet research heavy on the propaganda, they conversations would be much, much shorter. 

If you don't have actual, hands on experience with euthanasia or disposal, I have a way you can still participate with an *informed*, rational opinion. 

Call your local horse rescue. Tell them that you're hooking up your tractor trailer and going to the nearest livestock auction. Tell them that you are going to buy every healthy, potentially adoptable horse you see at the auction until you're trailer's full. You'll be using your own money to buy them; ask the rescue how many they're willing to take, care for and find homes for. 

Repeat this excercise until you've placed one tractor trailer load of horses. 

Then come back to this conversation and defend your position that rescue and adoption is the solution to the problem.


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## Speed Racer

I had my once in a lifetime put down by chemical euthing. The next one I have put down will be by either captive bolt, or a bullet.

Chemical euthing is easier on the _human_ because it looks 'more peaceful', when in fact it just means the animal takes longer to die. A bullet or captive bolt is instantaneous. It can be rather stressful for an owner to watch, but it's more humane for the animal.

I didn't actually dig the hole, but I was there when the backhoe driver dug it, and I was there when they chained my horse to the bucket by his legs in order to haul him over to his grave. 

Death is ugly, regardless of the method by which it comes. Burying a very large carcass can be traumatizing to the humans, especially since there's nothing graceful or dignified about chaining a dead animal by the legs, hoisting it in the air, and dragging it over to a hole in the ground. Once there, the legs are unchained and the body is toppled into the grave.

I _was_ upset by the ugliness of it all, but I also knew that the body being buried was only my horse's physical shell. I buried him for my _*own *_satisfaction, nothing more. Once he no longer occupied the body, it was just a large carcass that needed to be disposed of. 

As far as the 'ZOMG, save the pwetty horsies from a gruesome fate!' poster I have nothing to say, although I think their user name should be Airhead, not Airspace. Since it seems apparent that they're not using the brain God gave them for rational thought.

Remember y'all, we don't yet have equine slaughter back in the U.S. and Canada is not subject to U.S. authority. Once we have U.S. plants back open, we can enforce the laws that are _already_ on the books. I for one will breathe a sigh of relief the day the first plant opens back up.


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## Alwaysbehind

Speed Racer said:


> Remember y'all, we don't yet have equine slaughter back in the U.S. and Canada is not subject to U.S. authority. Once we have U.S. plants back open, we can enforce the laws that are _already_ on the books. I for one will breathe a sigh of relief the day the first plant opens back up.


This!!!!

So true!



Alli, what news do you watch that seems to cover and recover and only cover wild horse round up stuff? 
Wild horses have not been on any true news broadcast I have seen in a VERY long time.


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## vicki9

*horse slaughter paper*

Try these links for information. There are links on most of these sites to numerous other sites.

VEW White Paper : Veterinarians for Equine Welfare

http://americanherds.blogspot.com/

http://rtfitch.wordpress.com/

Animal Law Coalition | Advocating for animals to live and live free of cruelty and neglect

Home Page

Horse Slaughter


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## Crimsonhorse01

You know Wy mustangs that cant be adopted will be killed and given to the needy and state prisoners... And thank god.
There are some horrible looking culls in those bunches.


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## Speed Racer

Vicki, instead of getting all your 'information' from propaganda, why don't you do some _real_ research? 

None of those sites have any real validity, except maybe the first one where some of the vets have banded together. I did read that website, and they have some valid points. However, the points they're making have _always_ been a concern for those of us who aren't opposed to equine slaughter.

Just because we're not opposed to slaughter doesn't mean we're _for_ abuse. Any animal, regardless of its ultimate fate, should be treated humanely. 

The rest of your links are just the same old, 'animals are peoples and deserve rights too!' krayzees.


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## vicki9

*horse slaughter paper*

Speed Racer, I have done my research for many years. I have worked on investigations, work with rescues and have done extensive research on slaughter. I live in IL, not too far from the former Cavel plant. I saw firsthand what they did to the community, the horses and their non-compliance with waste water regulations. I would appreciate you citing what you believe to be propaganda or was that a blanket statement because you don’t have facts to dispute the information? I would challenge you to dispute anything on American Herds. Cindy’s analysis is impeccable.

VEW is not “some vets” that have banned together. AVMA/AAEP have never polled their membership which is why VEW was formed to get the facts out. What the organizations say is not what the members say. The AVMA study that the anti-horse folks love to use to promote use of the bolt was a controlled study done by veterinarians, for veterinarians. The bolt was administered by vets and does not portray use by unskilled workers in mass slaughter. Horses were secondary in the study which was for livestock, not horses. 

You will not see anything relating to animals rights from us because animals will never have rights except to be treated humanely. We are not animal rights, we are equine welfare advocates.

We do not slaughter, but euthanize non-food animals in the US. Just because there is a market in other countries, doesn’t mean they should be slaughtered in a country where they are not food animals. Do you support slaughtering dogs and cats for Asian markets? Horses are not bred or raised as food animals. They are not tracked like livestock and are not safe for human consumption. The EU has finally realized this and is enforcing the drug regulations. The drug manuscript on slaughter horses that was recently published by the peer reviewed journal, Food and Chemical Toxicology does not print propaganda. 

If you want to slaughter horses then they should be treated like livestock. Pasture ornaments waiting to go to slaughter. If you plan on racing, performing, using them in law enforcement, therapy, reining, cutting, rodeo, sport or work, then they are not food animals because they require meds that are prohibited in food animals to keep them healthy and at peak performance. That is a decision that must be made at birth. They must be tracked and complete vet records provided just as we do with livestock. The opposition to NAIS last year was clear, owners don’t want their horses tracked.


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## kevinshorses

vicki9 said:


> They must be tracked and complete vet records provided just as we do with livestock. The opposition to NAIS last year was clear, owners don’t want their horses tracked.


The opposition to NAIS is because it is a waste of money and it won't work any better than the current system. 

I'm sorry to burst your bubble but I have raised cattle and horses for most of my life and the only thing that I need to send a beef cow to slaughter is a brand inspection and those are only required in western states. There is no requirement for documentation of vaccines or medical treatment.


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## Speed Racer

Vicki, you're very well spoken, but you trot out the same, tired old arguments that I've heard over and over, especially the one about slaughtering dogs and cats for the Asian food market.

We kill thousands of unwanted dogs and cats a _day_. If someone wanted to utilize that meat, who am I to say no? The animals are dead regardless, so what does it matter what happens to the carcass?

Not all vets are against equine slaughter. Of _course_ the vets who oppose equine slaughter are going to have problems with how the animals meet their fates. In fact, some vets won't euth a healthy animal even if requested to do so by the owner. Does that mean all vets take that stance? No. Many vets see no problem with rendering horses for meat, nor do they impose their personal morals upon the general horse owning public.

I've known many beef cattle farmers. There are no regulations in place that vet and vaccination records are required with the cattle who are sold at auction that will ultimately go to feed the population.

The EU may track livestock, but their regulations and requirements do not carry over to the U.S. NAIS was defeated because as Kevin said, it's expensive, cumbersome, and does no more than the system already in place.

Whether or not an animal is _specifically_ raised for meat is a moot point. Whether or not they receive vaccinations and dewormers are also moot points, because beef cattle receive vaccinations and dewormers, too. In fact, the dewormers used on cattle are the very same used on horses, just in a different dosage because of the breed and size of the animal.

I agree wholeheartedly with animal welfare. I think that all animals, regardless of whether or not they're turned into food, should be treated humanely from birth to death. You'll get no disagreement from me on that.

As long as you've done the proper research and reached your own conclusions based on the data presented, I have no problem if your opinion differs from mine. 

The facts are still the facts; we have thousands of unwanted horses in this country, and we don't have the funds or space to take care of all of them for the next two or three decades. 

We also don't have the space with which to bury thousands of chemically euthed large animals without endangering the water supplies and human populations.

Burning the carcasses would create pollution of another kind, cremation is expensive, and since the animals would be chemically euthed, rendering them for non-food use would be prohibited.

So, knowing all of that, what is your _personal_ solution for caring for these animals who may live to be 30 to 40 years of age? How many of the thousands are you going to take?

I'm full up. I can't afford to take on even one more without putting the financial ability to care for the ones I already have in peril. Most of the people I know who own horses are in the same situation.

I'm lucky, because I have the land and can bury my own animals. I also own several guns, so if push came to shove I could euth one by bullet if I had to.

It's okay to love your own horses. It's also okay to be sad to think of all the unwanted ones going for meat. What's _not_ okay is somehow thinking that because _you_ don't like the idea, then it should be illegal.


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## mls

vicki9 said:


> If you want to slaughter horses then they should be treated like livestock. Pasture ornaments waiting to go to slaughter. If you plan on racing, performing, using them in law enforcement, therapy, reining, cutting, rodeo, sport or work, then they are not food animals because they require meds that are prohibited in food animals to keep them healthy and at peak performance. That is a decision that must be made at birth. They must be tracked and complete vet records provided just as we do with livestock. The opposition to NAIS last year was clear, owners don’t want their horses tracked.


1st - I do raise cattle. They are not tracked and rarely see a vet. We do all of our own tagging, worming and vaccinations. The only thing the sales barn wants is where they came from.

2nd - Horses ARE livestock. Our state fought for the right to consider them livestock to get rid of the pet tax

3rd - the opposition to NAIS was the 'big brother' theory.

For the record - we register and show our cattle. Some of the cattle are worth more than some of the horses. They are all livestock.

Slaughter - pig, cow or horse - is necessary.


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## vicki9

MIS, the issue isn't whether or not they are called livestock. The issue is they are not food animals.


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## Alwaysbehind

vicki9 said:


> MIS, the issue isn't whether or not they are called livestock. The issue is they are not food animals.


That is a matter of opinion. You are allowed to have yours. Others are allowed to have theirs.


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## Lis

Horses were food animals before we used them for other means. For a lot of people that hasn't changed.


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## savvylover112

Just because they are not food animals in the US does not mean they are not food animals somewhere else if they are food animals anywhere they can still be called food animals Speed Racer has already mentioned about hindus not slaughtering cows because they are scared in either this or another thread I have a friend who is a hindu but she accepts that cows are food animals even though she doesn't consider them food animals.


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## Crimsonhorse01

Who ever said horses arent food animals. I know allot of people who have eaten horse, and if I could just find a nice fat one....


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## vicki9

Why should anyone be required to take the animals? I certainly don’t expect anyone to take care of my animals. Why do you dismiss owner responsibility? 

Every cow can be traced back to the original farm. You can’t do that with horses. Somewhere in the chain, someone is signing a document stating the livestock are safe for slaughter and have not received prohibited substances and the owner/farm identification. If you take it to auction, the owner signs a statement and the animal is given a USDA tag that identifies the owner. Many livestock have ear tags. I have a friend that raises boar goats and he said they have to have USDA tags before they go to auction. If you want horse slaughter, then you should care about EU regulations because that is where the market is. That is who you are selling to so if you can’t document they are safe for humans to consume, then they will not accept the horses. Just about every US horse has received a banned substance at some time in their life. It’s no different with livestock. If they have received banned substances, they cannot be slaughtered for food. 

They may be old arguments, but facts don’t change. Yes, dogs and cats are killed every day but they are humanely euthanized, not slaughtered. There are 800,000 horses euthanized or that die of natural causes. Some are buried, some are rendered and some are cremated. Responsible owners/breeders don’t whine about a 1,200 pound animal or blame everyone else. They don’t make up excuses on why they can’t give their animal a humane death. And yet, the owners of less than 2% of the horse population can’t figure it out. 

If someone is against chemical euth, the horse can put down by firearm by someone that knows what they’re doing and it is just as humane as chemical euth. The real issue isn’t the environment, burying the horse or wasting meat. The issue is they have to pay to humanely end their horse’s life vs sending it off to a brutal death and getting paid. 

Do you think people would still send their horses to slaughter if they didn’t get paid? Do you think the breeders would continue to over breed if their dumping ground was gone? Just imagine what the dog and cat shelters would be like if they started paying owners to dump their dogs and cats. That is what you are doing with horse slaughter. You are paying breeders and owners to be irresponsible.


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## Lis

So what do you propose to do with all the bodies if slaughter was completely banned?


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## Speed Racer

Pish-posh Lis, don't bother her with silly details! :wink:

Vicky, I would suggest finding a more anti-slaughter friendly BB before you lose your mind.

Seriously, you appear to be an intelligent individual, but you're fighting a losing battle here. 

No amount of rhetoric or hand wringing is going to change our minds, and I think you'd be happier with a group who shared your viewpoint.

You're more than welcome to stay of course, because I think you could add insight and information to the BB. Just not about equine slaughter, 'cause as a whole we're not opposed to it.

FWIW, my animals are all euthed humanely, I've never sold at auction, and I have a 'useless' horse now who will be with me until he passes. He will then be buried, alongside the one I had put down in 2007.

You can't paint everyone with such broad brush strokes. What I do with _my_ horses does not give me the right to dictate what others may or may not do with _theirs_. That's the problem I have with _all_ the antis; do what_ I_ want because I say so and know better than you!!!

That's all it essentially comes down to. You find something distasteful, so think everyone else should too.


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## maura

No, the individual irresponsible backyard breeder, professional breeder, etc. makes no money from equine slaughter.

The person who goes to the livestock auction and buys up the tractor trailer load of horses and ships it out of the country for slaughter makes a little money, but has signifigant overhead in buying the horses and transport costs. 

That dynamic wasn't substantailly different when there were slaughter houses open in the US because there were only a handful of them and you still had to be able to ship a tractor trailer load a good distance before it made sense moneywise. 

Back in the 80s when I worked for a breeding farm we routinely gave away our culls as geldings or mares with a "no breeding" contract. When the slaughter houses were open it was also standard practice to price a broke, grade horse at $50 - $100 above killer sale prices. 

To suggest that people are deliberately over producing horses in order to *make money* by selling them for slaughter is ludicrous, and could only be suggested by someone at a far remove from the horse industry today. 

At any racing meet in the country, during the last week of the meet, you can be given all the free horses you're willing to haul away - if a cheap horse hasn't won during the meet, the owners/trainers would rather give it away than pay its expenses and transport someplace else, yet you're somehow suggesting that this is a money making opportunity so good that breeders deliberately overproduce horses? 

Sorry, it just doesn't make sense.


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## PechosGoldenChance

I think I'm starting to see both sides of this horse slaughter issue. As savvy stated about hindus and cows being sacred to them, makes me realize that slaughtering horses isn't really all that bad of a thing. Maybe the fact that some places don't do it right can be a little disturbing but other than that, the slaughtering of horses can be a good thing, as stated in the above posts. What WOULD we do with all the carcasses of dead animals? How could we let animals go to waste when starving people in other countries would be more than happy to have them? Reguardless if horses are our pets and companions or not, if one is to be euthanized (for certain reasons) than why not slaughter them and feed the hungry? I'm not saying I would eat a horse, but meat is meat and it shouldn't go to waste, so long as it's ok to eat and hasn't been contaminated in any way. 

This, also doesn't necessarily mean that if one of my horses needed to be put down I would have it slaughtered, but if it really came down to it, than yea I would have to say I would do it. I wouldn't like it, nor would I even dare to watch or be there, but to think of others' who really are dieing of hunger, literally, than I would do it.


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## Speed Racer

Welcome to the dark side, Pechos. :twisted:

It's not all bad. We have cookies.....


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## Alwaysbehind

High fives to Pechos! 

Yum. Cookies.


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## Trissacar

slightly graphic




stabbing a horse in the back while its still alive is not right


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## alli09

Wow, i see way too many myths these days.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trissacar

alli09 said:


> Wow, i see way too many myths these days.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I've seen another video where they stab them in the back too. It is no myth.


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## Hali

Trissacar said:


> slightly graphic
> YouTube - Bouvry Video Summary Part II of III
> stabbing a horse in the back while its still alive is not right


That video is pretty disturbing. 

I'm not adverse to slaughtering horses, however I do support legislations in place to humanely and MORE effectively euth. these animals.


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## alli09

Trissacar said:


> I've seen another video where they stab them in the back too. It is no myth.


thats not the myth im talking about.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wild_spot

> thats not the myth im talking about.


Do enlighten us.


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## PechosGoldenChance

Speed racer & Alwaysbehind: Haha, thanks for the welcoming and high fives for coming to the darkside!!!


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## PechosGoldenChance

As for the video posted...like I said, some places may not do it correctly and yes, the horses may suffer. That is the only downfall to horse slaughtering in my opinion. The only places that do it like that are probably in other countries other than the US. And who knows?? That video is probably pretty old anyways.


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## alli09

wild_spot said:


> Do enlighten us.


im done explaining my point of view on this pro-slaughter forum. Like someone said, no one is going to change your guys' minds so why waste my time?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alli09

PechosGoldenChance said:


> As for the video posted...like I said, some places may not do it correctly and yes, the horses may suffer. That is the only downfall to horse slaughtering in my opinion. The only places that do it like that are probably in other countries other than the US. And who knows?? That video is probably pretty old anyways.


But i've watched undercover videos of the slaughter plants here in the US and i've seen horses suffering on those videos. MYTH #1.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lis

I thought there were no horse slaughter plants open anymore in the US so I'm guessing those videos are getting old now. If the slaughter plants are reopened then everything can be changed as the public eye will be on them, they wouldn't be able to afford to be cruel as the outcry would come hard and fast. They would have to be humane.

There was a video posted by Speedy_da_fish of a British slaughter house which showed a very humane slaughter house. The worst thing there was leaving a mare for seven minutes while they sorted everything out before shooting her in the head.


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## wild_spot

This isn't a 'pro-slaughter' forum - It just so happens that most of us on here see it as a necessary evil.

Most of us actually enjoy an intelligent, NOT emotionally driven debate about the pros, cons, and possible solutions. Because trust me, if there was a viable solution available, not one of us would advocate slaughter.


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## vicki9

The Bouvry and Richelieu investigations are from Feb of this year. For the US, pull some FOIAs, read and view the numerous investigations. Same thing but with a bolt, not a rifle. Pull the investigations from Mexico. Same thing. Horrific deaths no matter where it occurs. What is even more despicable are the people trying to spin the investigations. My favorite is that they are isolated incidents. Jeez, over 10 years of investigations all depicting the same cruelty and they still try to justify it. Another good one is they were undercover. If you think your babysitter is abusing your child, are you going to give her warning that you are going to be watching her? 

There are many alternatives. Humane euthanasia for one. Most state departments of Ag offer low cost euthanasia and disposal as do some state veterinarian associations and many rescues. The NRA is currently offering discounts on rendering. What about breed registries like the AQHA? What are they doing to help other than promoting more breeding? Do they support any rescues, have they started any hay funds or offer assistance to help care for the horses? Of course, not. All they want are registration fees and then support slaughter so they can dump the mistakes, breed more and get more registrations. How many of the 5 million registrations they were bragging about last year ended up on a slaughter truck? The TB industry is stepping up with programs to retire TBs. Many states have implemented prison programs at no cost to tax payers that helps inmates learn a trade and saves horses. 

Many people and organizations are working on programs to help. Everyone but the people that created the excess horses. They would rather blame everyone else. Rescues are inundated with calls from owners that can’t care for their horses but they are holding on to them because they are in fear if they sell them or give them away, they’ll end up on a slaughter truck. So they get added to the list for openings at the rescue. If slaughter wasn’t still available, many of those horses would be in new homes instead of being neglected and seized. I’m certainly not saying that is the case with all neglect but if slaughter prevented neglect, you wouldn’t be seeing any. There is nothing stopping anyone from sending their horse to slaughter. Canada is prime example. Why are they seeing so much neglect? A friend of mine rescued two drafts from a farm that was 15 minutes from a slaughter plant. 

Slaughter proponents accuse us of being emotional while they’re trying to tug at people’s emotions by saying slaughter prevents neglect and controls the population. If anything, it should evoke the emotion of laughter.


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## kevinshorses

Nobody is being forced to send their horses to slaughter. My horses are my property, they are not babies or members of my family. As private property I should be able to dispose of them as I see fit without some bleeding heart telling me that I am cruel. 

I don't consider slaughter evil at all. I consider the waste of resources that could be used to feed people to be far more evil. The knocking process is not perfect and some horses may experience some pain immediately prior to death. The same is true of any method of killing. If a vet blows through a vein when administering a chemical euthanasia it is far more painful and lingering. On these supposedly damning videos only a few of the horses are handled in a matter that is deemed cruel by the people making the video and most of the horse were not handled any worse than what you can see at any 4-h horse show.


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## alli09

What pro-slaughter people say must really sound rediculous to me cause i read it (and yes i try to understand where you all are coming from, but i cant)and yet i am still 100% against the slaughter of these animals that we consider companion animals. Not to mention all they have done for us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wild_spot

> Rescues are inundated with calls from owners that can’t care for their horses but they are holding on to them because they are in fear if they sell them or give them away, they’ll end up on a slaughter truck. So they get added to the list for openings at the rescue. If slaughter wasn’t still available, many of those horses would be in new homes instead of being neglected and seized.


If these homes are available, why can't they be homed now? How will homes for unwanted horses suddenly appear if slaughter is prohibited?


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## Lis

So like others have asked and not received an answer what do you suggest we do with all the chemically euthanized bodies? 

Cows have done a hell of a lot for us as well but I'm quite happy to eat one. Never tried horse, maybe next time I'm in France. Also just because you consider them companion animals doesn't mean everyone does, a lot of people consider them livestock and working animals.


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## alli09

Lis said:


> So like others have asked and not received an answer what do you suggest we do with all the chemically euthanized bodies?
> 
> Cows have done a hell of a lot for us as well but I'm quite happy to eat one. Never tried horse, maybe next time I'm in France. Also just because you consider them companion animals doesn't mean everyone does, a lot of people consider them livestock and working animals.


there are plenty of ways to get rid of a body and whether people believe it or not they are treated like a pet in this country and they should not be treated this way. Man has no right to do any of this stuff. Karma is a ***** by the way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wild_spot

Please watch your language.



> there are plenty of ways to get rid of a body


What are they? Please actually put down these ways to dispose of chemically euthed bodies without contaminating the environment.


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## alli09

wild_spot said:


> Please watch your language.
> 
> 
> 
> What are they? Please actually put down these ways to dispose of chemically euthed bodies without contaminating the environment.


how many pets a year are cremated? And since when is anyone taking drastic measures to help the environment?!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wild_spot

Relax.

I'm not talking about helping, i'm talking about not contaminating. There are laws in place to ensure that carcasses don't contaminate the environment.

Cremation is an option, but it is expensive, time consuming and generally needs to be planned in advance. The flames need to be above a certain temperature otherwise it takes too long - Which means you need to transport your horse to a crematorium that cremates horses. You also need to make a time/date, and most crematoriums have a specified time between death and cremation and if you go over it, they will not cremate your horse.

Basically, it isn't a solution that can be utilised for a larger number of horses or by those who don't have the money/organisational skills.


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## Alwaysbehind

kevinshorses said:


> On these supposedly damning videos only a few of the horses are handled in a matter that is deemed cruel by the people making the video and most of the horse were not handled any worse than what you can see at any 4-h horse show.


So true!


Alli, do you have any idea how much it costs to cremate a horse? Do you have any idea of the logistical issues associated with the transporting and maneuvering of a carcass that weighs 1000lbs?

Please give us more realistic means to dispose of a 1000lb carcass that are cost affective and do not ruin the water table.


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## alli09

But we all know what kinds of horses are going to slaughter. The majority are not unwanted, they just don't get a chance. This business is full of greed and ignorance.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Speed Racer

People, why do you even entertain the idea that Alli has a wish to discuss the slaughter issue rationally and with maturity? 

She doesn't; all she wants is to shriek her ideals and opinions, base her 'facts' on propaganda and inflammatory videos, and declare those of us who don't share her unrealistic views as meanie doodie heads who can't _possibly_ love animals.

Meanwhile, all those 'wanted' horses are still being sold to slaughter and shipped out of the country.

Regardless of her actual chronological age I consider Alli a child, and I refuse to badger children.


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## alli09

First time someones left me speechless in a long time. All i have to say about that is lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lis

Rabbits.

A lot of people have rabbits as pets but a lot eat them yet no one is up in arms about the poor fluffy bunny wunnies are they? I have a beautiful Dutch buck, I'm not going to eat him because he is my pet but if my neighbour got a rabbit and ate it I wouldn't mind. I've never had rabbit myself although I understand it to be quite a sweet meat but if people want to eat them, fair enough. My grandparents bred and showed rabbits and guess what? They ate some of them, the ones that didn't make the grade or had temperment issues. They loved their rabbits but it was a good source of food. 

My point is the issue is similar with horses, people want to eat them so why shouldn't they be eaten because some people believe they are pets? Fish again is widely eaten, even by a lot of vegetarians (never understood that myself, my sister does it) but a lot of people have fish as pets, have big fish like koi as pets and you could make a decent meal out of one of them but no one gets upset about fish being eaten because some people have them as pets. I was once asked to sign a petition against the killing dogs for food in Asia, I didn't because it asked for the comsumption to be stopped, it's a viable food source for them and if they want to eat it then good for them. I'm not going to eat my dog but then he's a pet for me whereas they see dogs as food.


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## SilverFox

alli09 said:


> This business is full of greed and ignorance.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Greed and ignorance is found everywhere. 

I agree with Wild Spot when she stated that "slaughter" is a necessary evil. The fact of it is, there are too many horses in this country and not enough horse people. This is a problem humanity has created and it is up to humanity to find a humane solution. Today there are more horses that there where when we used them as transportation. 

Lately hay has become hard to find in some areas. People have been trying to give their horses away in order to get them off the feed bill, so they can continue to feed themselves. In turn many have been turned loose on government lands to fend for themselves. I know this was a problem in the Kentucky Lake area a year ago. 

With the fall in the economy is has become more expensive to maintain a horse. Hay prices went up dramatically when the price of fuel shot through the roof. As did commercial feeds when the demand for corn increased for Bio Fuels. I even noticed a price increase in dog food when the slaughter houses in the US shut their doors. 

I'm growing tired of the bleeding hearts whining about shelters euthanizeing the pet population.(.ex..dogs and cats) If there are no homes for these poor animals, where are they going to go? Funding is minimal for these organizations and they simply cannot feed these animals for the rest of their lives. It's sad...yes...but it's true. As long as people continue not to spay an neuter their pets this will continue to be a problem. Duh...

The same goes for the horse population. Yes there are horses out there that end up on the auction block and find themselves in transit to a slaughter house. Some of them are perfectly usable animals, some are not. There has to be an outlet for the excess horse population. As long as people continue to say "Oh you have a stallion. Well I have a mare. Lets breed them and sell the colt." Or for whatever reason they are breeding. There will continue to be more horses than homes for these horses. 

The excess population of horses also contributes to the neglect of these animals as well. All though not the cause I am aware. Some people are just stupid. When you think about it. Some people are faced with the fact that they can no longer feed the horse(s) they have. Can't give them away since the majority of horse owners are full up. They aren't looking at add another member to their herd due to either lack of space to house another, cost of upkeep on another, or simply the work another horse would provide. 

Even the rescues are finding themselves up to their eye balls with homeless animals they are trying to place. They are even finding it hard to do that. So surrendering their horse is out of the question for some people looking to find a home for a horse they can no longer keep. Selling it in some areas is out of the question as well. If they couldn't give it away. So as feed money dwindles the poor horses are fed less and less. Eventually leading to starvation. Which is slow, and painful I'd imagine. 

Sound, well bred, trained, usable horses meet their ends one way or another. Be it slaughter or death by neglect. While lame, poorly bred, untrained, horses are taking up the homes that these more useful animals probably should have. Because society today seems to love the sick and the weak. Some people would buy a lame horse from an auction while overlooking a sound animal in fear that this poor broken creature would be sent to slaughter even though the sound one is potentially facing the same fate. I personally don't understand it. 

Bottom line is that the slaughter houses served their purpose, by alleviating the surplus of horses in our society. I would much rather see them uses for food in another country than wasted. Nourish a foreign community than rot underground. 

Death is seems has no longer become accepted as a fact of life by many people today, and a shaken by the subject. Especially when it befalls an animal. Our opinions on slaughter seems to be based on how we perceive the word when we hear it. What comes to your mind first? My dictionary (your might have a different volume) defines Slaughter as (noun)--1. The killing of animals for food. --2. The killing of a large number of people; masacure (as a verb)-1. To butcher (animals) for food. ---2. To kill brutally in large numbers.

When I think of slaughter I think of the killing of animals for food. Whether one or in large numbers. Since man has been eating animals as long as we have walked this earth. I believe it will continue to be a practice. I also believe that the slaughter of horses is a practice that has its place in today's society, that needs to be regulated to ensure the animals are treated humanely in their final moments. 

It truly is a necessary evil. This however is the balance of life. There is no good without evil.


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## Alwaysbehind

Good post Silverfox.


Lis, very good point. Rabbits are the perfect example of both pet and food animal. And you are right, it is a tasty meat.


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## kevinshorses

Alwaysbehind said:


> So true!
> 
> 
> Alli, do you have any idea how much it costs to cremate a horse? Do you have any idea of the logistical issues associated with the transporting and maneuvering of a carcass that weighs 1000lbs?
> 
> Please give us more realistic means to dispose of a 1000lb carcass that are cost affective and do not ruin the water table.


Not to mention the carbon footprint!!!

I think I will cremate a cow tonight but I'll stop just a hair shy of medium rare!


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## SilverFox

kevinshorses said:


> I think I will cremate a cow tonight but I'll stop just a hair shy of medium rare!


ROFL, I had the same plans. XD


Thanks AlwaysBehind.  Lis does have a great point. Rabbits where actually domesticated by the Romans for food purposes. I raised rabbits for a few years. All of the culls not fit for breeding where sold for the frying pan. The ARBA has very strict regulations for registration. Only the best are accepted. The Association sends someone out to inspect the rabbit applying for registration to ensure it is to the Standard of Perfection. Making a registered rabbit very valuable. Sooo.. wish they would do this in the Kennel Clubs. 

Also there is an old AKC Dog Breeds book I was given, it stated the Chow Chow was developed in China for food purposes as well.


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## kevinshorses

SilverFox said:


> Also there is an old AKC Dog Breeds book I was given, it stated the Chow Chow was developed in China for food purposes as well.


 
Hence the name!


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## Hali

Those last videos were from Canada - normally we have great legislations for our slaughtering horses - and out of many slaughter houses in Canada, only these 2 are 'questionable', and as a whole, are a poor representation of our standards, which are usually pretty high.

$0.02


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## farley

hello im farley, im a mustang owner and lover, and have been around horses and the ranch life my whole life. i love how open you all are to this subject.


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