# Clash of the Minds - Personal rant with my Mare



## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

Forewarning, this is a personal little rant about my beloved mare, who I love so dearly.

She came to me very ill. A starvation and neglect case. I worked on bringing her back to life, and like a lot of thoroughbreds once she started feeling good her trues colors came through. 

My horse is INCREDIBLY smart. So smart, that sometimes I feel I've got a little person next to me instead of an equine. You can literally see the gears in her head turning. She's my first thoroughbred and I've always worked with warmbloods, so there's a bit of a culture clash in a lot of the assumed ways I thought I could handle her.

She likes a very soft contact. As a dressage rider, contact is required. We must have some amount of #'s of pressure in our hands. One may say "well, if she doesn't want to give she may not be a dressage horse." I don't disagree, but dressage is good for every discipline. It helps them strengthen and give the horse body awareness. 

Her primary sport is jumping. Nothing over 3'3 (we reserve that for shows), and only once a week. Her third sport is trail riding, but for the moment my trainer is the only one who takes her out along with our barn owners and other boarder.

Sometimes my training philosophies completely clash with how she wants to be ridden. I ask for a lower head, she braces her jaw and starts shaking it back and forth because she doesn't appreciate how strong I am asking. We're working with my trainer on this, but it's mostly a "me" problem.

This horse has taught me so much about patience, perseverance, compassion and consideration. There isn't a lot of thought for the horse in my background, just the rider. So it's been a journey learning about her and finding ways to include her in our riding conversations.

The one thing that really annoys me is when times up, it's up. If she decides "ok, i'm done, time to go back to the barn," we spend twenty minutes arguing about it. If she feels I am in the wrong, she will start bucking. Riding her bucks out is not easy. I've taken plenty of spills. The trainer handles this better than I do. For this reason, I am putting her and I in situations that would normally make me anxious about a reaction from her, so I can learn how to insist that we continue.

This horse is The Greater Power's greatest gift to me. She is such a teacher. I feel so impatient sometimes. I need to slow down and remember this is a journey, not a race. But I admit, sometimes I wish we could just get on and go, and I could work on me for a moment without having to school her every step. Then again, if she ever became a "made, perfect horse," I am afraid she would become boring. I love her spiciness, I just wish it was directed in a better way and that I had a better seat to sit some of these punches she throws.

Rant over! Thanks for listening <3 Does anyone else have a difficult horse that somedays you just go "WHY!" and then you remember exactly why? ;-)


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

I have, or rather had, a difficult horse. It really was dependent upon how he was being ridden. If the rider made it all about them, it was a rodeo and he'd become uncontrollable. IF on the other hand the rider "considered" the horse, he would be a very pleasant ride. Like yours, he was a neglect case.

That isn't to say that the rider has to let him do whatever he wanted to do. It was in the way you asked for something from him. Ask with respect and you got respect in return. Demand, get unfairly rough and you got.....dirt. He doesn't suffer disrespect well. He still has his dignity.

Being from an English riding background you may be unfamiliar with a man by the name of Tom Dorrance. He and his brother Bill (who I believe is still alive), brought to the forefront some very important concepts in horse training. Tom was not an educated man but, he understood horses like no one else. His wife said in all the years she knew him, he never owned a horse. 

Tom has a book out there but, it can be difficult to understand at times so I would suggest reading some of his protégés first like Ray Hunt or Buck Brannaman if you would like to become a more horse centered rider.


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## SketchyHorse (May 14, 2012)

Did we have half-siblings? Lol. She has some similar quirks to my OTTB.

My mare appreciated a soft contact as well. She was okay working _into_ the contact but never appreciated me asking for more or stronger. For me, that was fine. I've never been in the Dressage camp of needing to have some sort of # to my reins. If I can feel both sides of the contact - we're golden. I don't want her pushing or leaning into my hands. I honestly don't _want_ to feel any weight through the reins. 

It's about learning how to ask differently. My WB mare it was 'here are my hands, ride into them.' My OTTB it was more a slowly accepting. 'Here are my hands, they're not going to change. They will continue to stay light & you can ride into the contact you need/want.' This helped my giraffe slowly turn into a horse who picked up a soft, happy contact.

There's also knowing when to stop. I could work my WB into the ground. Did she like it? No, but she wouldn't put up much of a fight. My OTTB would get so fried her brain would fall out of her head. She would have never dreamed to buck or rear, but she was a nervous type who would bit chomp. We couldn't accomplish anything after that. So I just learned her 'cap.' Each week we slowly pushed her further. There were no time expectations on my lesson. If we could only school for 20 minutes because her brain got so fried working on something new then we went back to trotting circles until she settled & called it a day. I didn't argue. It was 'okay - she's starting to bit chomp, we're getting fried, time to do something less stressful' depending on how worked up she got I might be able to circle 5x then work on something else again.

I agree with you OP. You just need to slow it down. I completely understand though! I owned my OTTB for 2yrs & never felt like we really "got" anywhere. We did though - omg we did. She was completely different from when we started, but she hasn't made leaps like my MorganxQH. I was actually just talking to my trainer about this a couple weeks ago in our lessons. Both of my horses are the "nervy" type with some similar quirks. However, my gelding handles new situations or new challenges much easier. He never stresses because we picked up the right rein contact, _omg how dare we_. With him I actually feel like we're getting leaps & bounds further than it ever felt like with my OTTB. 

Sorry didn't mean to write a small novel for you! Just that I completely understand where you're coming from. They're frustrating, but it was so rewarding with my OTTB. I eventually made the decision I couldn't be the 4x a week rider like she needed & she just wasn't the type of horse for me. It didn't make me love her any less or not still love those quirks. Which not saying you need to sell her! Not at all, just that it's rewarding - it's just slow going  If you're willing to take the time she needs you'll have a super cool horse.


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## PresleysMom (Nov 21, 2017)

I have a little story. I free leased an ex-barrel gelding who was about 16 or so. Owner said he became alley sour, so she retired him. He had spent the better part of the previous few years in a stall for most of the day (owner didn't have good pasture). She was tearful when I came to get him because she of course loved her horse, and he was to be with me for only a month on trial to see if he and I could get along. He was fantastic on the ground, tacked up without issue, and rode great in the round pen. BUT once I tried to ride him outside of the pen and even worse outside of the property on a dirt road, he became a different horse. I was still about a year out from a broken arm from a fall off a horse (totally my lack of balance) so I was not at all confident in "encouraging" him to comply with my request, so back to the property we went. I went out one day with another rider to see if that might be better (with her OTTB who was also misbehaving), so here we were with her horse not wanting to move and my horse running through the bit toward a busy road -- not pretty! This horse was the first horse I had ridden after the accident the year before, and the first horse I actually took lessons on. 


Not sure of the point of telling that story only to say that I really admire people who can move on after an injury and get control of not only their emotions and fears, but also a horse that is acting up.


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## knightrider (Jun 27, 2014)

Oh yes, I have one of those. She kept a journal. It's http://www.horseforum.com/member-journals/isabeau-psychomare-diva-queen-637890/if you want to read it. Like your horse, she decided when she was done being ridden, and when she decided, if you pushed her, she reared up and came over on the rider. She was very very quirky and what normally took days for a horse to learn, took her YEARS.

Why did I keep her? Why did I keep trying? Like you, she was a blast and a half to ride. She isn't pretty, has lousy conformation, is too small, and has a diva attitude. But riding her is so much fun. She doesn't walk, she does this wonderful fun dancy smooth little Paso step. Her gait is glass smooth. She's affectionate and friendly in her own quirky way--rather like a cat--she loves you on her own terms. Also she doesn't spook, and the only times I ever came off of her was when I had to because she was coming over on me. For some reason, I don't get tired when I'm riding her--my back never gets sore. 

But those bad acting days are long gone. I've had her 3 1/2 years and in those years she has learned to ride as long as I ask, go out by herself, ride in the trailer without kicking, wait calmly tied to the trailer, do some elementary dressage, accept wormer, and now days she even packs beginners safely. I wouldn't sell her for six million dollars, but I can tell you there were many times when I would have gladly shot her. She's a one in a million. Best wishes for your successful training. It can be so worth it!

PS: Remember that training is going to take itsy teensy baby steps, far different than any other horse you've ever trained.


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

These stories are so wonderful!
@Reiningcatsanddogs - This applies to my horse as well. You must ask very kindly and clearly, and if you aren't committed to your request she gets upset. She wants to know the rules and understand. Sometimes, when I ask for the canter and I'm only half assing it, she will start to flip her head and jig from one side to another out of frustration. Do we trot or do we canter? I must be assertive with my requests and really mean then. Other horses, you can go "meh, i guess we'll canter," and they'll pick up a canter as long as you give at least part of the leg cue. I do know Tom Dorrance and I love Buck. I'm not a CA fan. My horse is not one who needs CTJ training, just training she can understand and will keep her calm and safe, and bucks methods really seem the type.
@SketchyHorse - they probably are! What's her pedigree? Mine is learning how to "get on the bit" quite well, but if you start playing with it back and forth she starts to have a tizzy. At the same time, holding the contact and pushing her into it doesn't always work.. It takes her forever, if at all, for her to lower her head and meet it. She's very resistant with my steel bit, much better in the copper one (why? no idea). I'm sorry you had to give up your mare! OTTBs definitely demand a lot more than other horses to stay rideable, I agree with that. She's got such a competitive spirit and a desire to win, though, and that's what I love about her. At shows I can trust she will get it done and do her best.
@PresleysMom - We had a similar issue but it cropped up a bit later. She's pretty good on the ground, no earth shattering bad habits, but under saddle, if you don't have a plan and aren't directing the ride, she sees no reason to participate. To her, riding is work, and if we're not working why bother? Sometimes, I just want to go out and walk around on a long rein. Can't do that without leg yields, change of direction, flexion at the walk, halt/walk transitions, or else she becomes unresponsive/dull/flighty. Even on the trails my trainer makes her work on her dressage movements. In the mornings, she can be super fresh and is more sensitive to everything. My seat is getting a lot better but it's hard sometimes...
@knightrider - Similar story to mine! I kept my horse, too, despite behavioral problems because I knew if we got past it we'd have an amazing horse. And if I could learn how to train her through a lot of this stuff, I'd become an amazing rider.


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## SketchyHorse (May 14, 2012)

thecolorcoal said:


> @SketchyHorse - they probably are! What's her pedigree? Mine is learning how to "get on the bit" quite well, but if you start playing with it back and forth she starts to have a tizzy. At the same time, holding the contact and pushing her into it doesn't always work.. It takes her forever, if at all, for her to lower her head and meet it. She's very resistant with my steel bit, much better in the copper one (why? no idea). I'm sorry you had to give up your mare! OTTBs definitely demand a lot more than other horses to stay rideable, I agree with that. She's got such a competitive spirit and a desire to win, though, and that's what I love about her. At shows I can trust she will get it done and do her best.


This is her _possible_ bloodline. She didn't come with her JC papers & based on her tattoo we're thinking this is her.

Mine was the same! You couldn't do any playing or kneading with the bit. When I first got her I was riding under two trainers. My current trainer who I specifically picked because of her experience re-training OTTBs (who I adore lol) & then another trainer who I'd rode under before. The second trainer always wanted me to play with the reins a little. It just caused my mare to jack her head up higher & get frustrated. I couldn't hold a strong contact on her either. My hands had to be in their set "spot" but needed to be gentle & forgiving. It was like finding that inbetween on holding but allowing breathing room. She eventually came around into a light, soft contact, but if you tried shortening the reins or taking more contact - fire breathing dragon. Everything had to be slowly introduced piece by piece. 

I've heard copper is "the" bit for OTTBs from a previous trainer. I switched my first mare over to a single joint full cheek copper bit - loved it. Then Broadway (the mare who's lines I linked) hated the same bit. So I tried a full cheek w/copper roller which was good for awhile. Eventually I switched her into a Mikmar Cumpreon w/Lozenge - magic bit lol. She was much softer & less resistant to working into the bit.

Yes they do! I've met some who could get away with getting rode once or twice a week. My mare _used_ to be that type. She was very okay with casual rides, trails, western, english, doing absolutely nothing, lessons, games. Not much phased her. Then eventually her brain just kinda flipped. She started liking structured rides more. I couldn't just get on & mosey around the arena. She _wanted_ me to take contact, she _wanted_ to actually be working on something & not just go around in circles. If I was the type of person who was more interested in showing or training to be competitive - she would have been a rockstar. Which was why I made my decision. She needed someone who enjoyed a consistent work program (because she _loved_ being rode 5 - 6x a week) and had competitive goals. They certainly are something else! Just not for me anymore lol.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

You also have to consider that as an OTTB, she has to be re-trained into a riding horse, and not a race horse>I am assuming that is is an OTTB and not just a TB, and thus the comment only applies to the former
If she is an OTTB, then there are many sites, if you google, on retraining them into performance horses. Race horses are taught nothing about collection, , softly giving to a bit, ect. In fact, they run on the bit

Far as her deciding as to when she is done working, you need to either recognize when she is getting close to that point, and quit before, so it is your decision, far as she is concerned, when that lesson was over, OR, you need to push her through that time she wants to quit, and make that a bit uncomfortable. You are basically making the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard
The Warmbloods you have worked with, besides not having the temperament of a hot blood, most likely were never in a rescue, nor on the track. Their training, right from the time they are started on the ground, centers on that eventually carriage, collection, etc
Do you even know the history of your mare, far as training? You might need to go right back to square one, including biiting her up gradually, while being lunged


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## BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 (Apr 11, 2016)

Subbing


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

@Smilie, thanks for the advice, but she is off the track four years. two when I got her, and she had already been restarted. After a certain amount of time in a different training program, OTTBs tend to lose a lot of their track training tendencies. At this point one would consider her just a green horse, no OTTB title attached because her old understandings of horse training are long ago and forgotten. At least, I think so, because none of her behavior is because she is a "off the track thoroughbred," it might just be because she is "young and dumb"


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

So, what re -training has she had in those two years?
You mention her being pushy in the bridle, and I can very well see that as being related to her racing career
I once bought an Appaloosa running mare off the track, to use as a broodmare, but first I decided to ride her. She was half TB and half running bred App.
it took a lot to make her into a decent riding horse, and when push came to shove, she reverted back to her track training
So, since you rescued her, she was two years off the track, then exactly how long was she ridden and re trained, to put all those basics a riding horse needs, on her?
Who re trained her,and at what discipline?
Could she be shaking her head, bracing when you take contact, because for her it still might mean-run, and you are holding her back? Has she really learned contact and legs instead mean to give, soften, collect? Just putting some thoughts out there.


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

I think the only track habit she has left is that loud, clanging metallic sounds make her bolt, almost like the sound of the starting gate.

According to her track trainer, she was given to a woman to retrain as an eventer. That seemed to get sidelined and the woman focused on western instead. She was sold as a barrel racing and western pleasure prospect. The lady who bought her used her in both sports. When I acquired her, she could do a slow jog and a very lethargic 4-beat canter. She'd been ridden in large curbs because the owner did not understand her as a horse. At the track, she rode in a KK ultra. The trainer said he retired her because her desire to race stopped, but she retired sound. The x-rays show the Injury was less than a year old, which meant it happened during the ownership of the barrel racer.

I only recently got into dressage. As a hunter, we don't require contact the way dressage does. It is a looser, floatier rein, not as disconnected as western but dressage riders would gasp. There is a lot of self-carriage required in the hunters, as it is an exhibition for the horse and not the rider. Self carriage for us means that the horse can hold his cadence and needs little help from the rider to navigate the course and strides between jumps.

Self-carriage in dressage is the ability to gymnastically use the body to efficiently and soundly carry a rider's full weight. The horse must use it's abdominals to lift the load, which puts stress on much of the body.

Dressage also requires the horse to be in contact at all times. The contact amount depends on the horse. "Seeking the bit" means the horse accepts what is happening to him (being ridden) and also choose to participate. A horse who does not reach for the contact would, in dressage, be considered not connected and not engaged.

She is learning dressage training from scratch. Collection is still a foreign concept for her, but she is learning how to seek the contact and travel with a low, stretched head that gives her the ability to push from behind and open her gaits. Before dressage she had a medium head carriage like a hunter, but it was not required that she give with any part of her body.

It seems that she head flips to tell me that she does NOT want to connect with my hands. Debate rages regarding bit and tack to be the culprit. I have found she WILL connect 75% of the time in the copper bit, while the steel bit only receives the same attention 25% of the time. We are almost never connected in the steel bit, and I must physically force her onto the connection which is highly incorrect and a huge sin in dressage. This has caused her to be slightly resentful of my handsy-ness, which i am working on fixing.


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

Right now my primary focus for her is forward. She likes to suck back and get locked in her body when she is unsure or hesitiating, when the rules are not clear or when my rein signals conflict or are overpowering. Unfortunately, while the reward for forward and on the bit is a slight give back, the instant the connection softens any amount her nose comes right back up, and i must hold her and push her back down by holding contact again. I don't like to do this, I find it too aggressive, but my trainer is adamant that I must be firm with what I want from her and if we have to spell it out with shouts and big painted letters, that is what it must be for now. But she is a soft horse, not a warmblood-type, and I feel the strong cues are getting her frustrated and upset. She is naturally a very confident horse who has more of a mustang's sense of self preservation and if the rider is upsetting her, she will be the one to decide the ride is over.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Well, I see a confused horse. First, not even a stock horse, never raced, is going to be good at anything, when the attempt is made to make her into a western pleasure horse and a barrel horse, esp at the same time, .
On a some horses after they have perhaps been ridden by some GOOD western pl trainer, might be able to cross over into something like barrel racing, at least at the all breed level, but you will never see that at any higher end, nor would a trainer that really knew how to produce a western pl hrose, which this horse is not bred to be in the least, also run the horse on barrels!
Thus, I am led to believe some amateur like wanna be trainer attempted to re train her after the track, or at least no trainer I would dream of sending a horse to!
So yes, she is not only green as a riding horse, but most likely has had some negative training that first must b eliminated before some really good solid basics can be put on her
Now, if someone tried to train her as a HUS horse, I would at least consider they knew a bit of what they were doing!
Yes, green, as were anyone that knew in the slightest, how to train a western horse had ridden her, she not only would give lightly in the face and poll when asked, but with training, give that face and poll off of legs and seat alone, respecting an invisible bit barrier.
Consider you have agreen horse, that has been on the track, and if she had any training after that point, before you got her, it was not a positive thing!


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## InexcessiveThings (Oct 22, 2016)

First of all, let me say that I know where you're coming from. My own OTTB is one that is too dang smart for his own good! He always gets these little ideas and they often don't connect with what I want to do. He's been off the track for nearly 7 years now, and he is still rather spicy. I like that about him since it makes him a fun ride, but he knows now when it's okay to be the fire breathing dragon with me and when he needs to be the placid horse who takes it easy with my lessee. It took a better part of three years before he even really trusted me or any other human and for him to get over all his anxiety, consistent bucking, and spookiness. He probably experienced some poor treatment on the track to the point it gave him some problems with trust. I also needed that time to build my confidence in myself and in him. He's a great all around horse now, the most solid trail horse I know, and he trusts me so much I think he'd probably walk through fire for me if I asked. He's very sensitive, and also is a horse that typically likes a very light contact. The key is to let _him_ put however much pressure he wants on himself, not the rider. He has been a very rewarding project for me, anyone working with him just has to get to know him and his quirks and then they can get along famously.

Moral of the story here being, stick with it and things will probably turn out okay. You have a trainer to help you as well which I think is a great thing. It can be frustrating, and sometimes seem like you're not making progress at all, but it should be worth it in the long run. Once you can figure out how to redirect her spiciness into something other than bucking or otherwise misbehaving, you will probably have a pretty nice horse on your hands. It does sound like she is rather green, so as you said, patience is key. Take baby-steps and don't ask her for too much at once especially as she is learning something entirely new. A lot of your problems I think are largely going to take more time just working on the basics and getting more miles on her. I also think it's the difficult horses that will really teach you to ride and gain a sticky seat! I know mine certainly did. I wish you luck in this endeavor!


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

@Smilie, her training in those disciplines were far before we came together. She's been in training with me for two years, and it only took a few weeks to install a more english-style walk/trot/canter cue, along with leg yields and what pressure on the bit meant. We incorporate dressage training into our jump training, abandoning the lightness on the reins to keep things consistent. 

And her training was highly aggressive with this other owner, you are correct. They used terrifying bits on her, we believe she hurt herself turning around a barrel too tightly and that is why she was abandoned out in the field. The woman was not nice, i'd go so far as to say abusive as she did not provide my mare with the basic life necessities: food, water, and shelter. My horse is still learning how to trust people, even two years out, but she's starting to realize horses and humans can work as a team.
@InexcessiveThings - they are extremely smart! A lovely breed, I'm obsessed with mine as you can tell.


> "The key is to let him put however much pressure he wants on himself, not the rider."


 I think this is very important. I tend to push my horse too hard too fast, which is why we ended up back at square one with an eight month off stall rest due to her brain being fried and me pushing her physical limits. She's back in work, now, but we had to go back to teaching her how to walk, and we still aren't far along on jump training (this horse used to do 3 foot oxers 3 months after I bought her, now she can only do 2 foot verticals, one at a time, because I pushed her so far that she started to resent jumping... She's found it fun again, and though she's super athletic and talented my trainer is not pushing her harder than she must).

I also think I get hung up on the fact that she will be eight soon and she is more of a light green/yellow (AHA) at this point with ring work, but bright green in other experiences. I originally bought her for the training journey, and then when i realized how good she really was it was hard not to try to get to her max as fast as we could just to see what she was capable of. I really have to focus on slowing myself down and reminding myself that rome was not built in a day, if we aren't getting a good forward that I should not resort to forcing it to happen. It is hard, because I KNOW she can do it, but her buttons are so specific that if you miss them by milimeters she will not respond.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Any horse trained correctly, whether western or English, understands bit pressure.
Horses,being ridden eventually, western, trained correctly, on a loose rein, is the END product,
There is no way you can train a horse to move in frame, collected, on a loose rein, without first using contact. The only difference being, western, once the horse has the basics, you give him periods where you expect him to continue correctly, ridden off of seat and legs alone, while staying correct, taking up contact again, when the hrose falls apart. At first you might only get a stride or two, but you build on that.
So contact is a'kindergarten stage, western, one you still go back to when schooling, ect, thus, YOUR horse was simply not trained by anyone that knew what they were doing, after her racing time.
I used to add HUS to my horses I had going solid western, with no problem, as they understood contact from their early snaffle bit two handed training period.

As a race horse she certainly knew about contact, but just not how to give to it, and that is what you are dealing with
Any horse, trained correctly, has to give to a bit softly when asked, and the WAIT for that release, versus demanding it by pulling.

So forget whatever that person who abused her, said she was trained for, as she received no training worth anything there
A green horse has no real buttons, and a horse that has received some poor training, does not even have any clear idea of expectations of any cue

Yes, you have to slow down. Get that forward first, then worry about any head set. As an ex-race horse she should have more then enough forward, unless that idiot who abused her, really intimidated her in the mouth, it which case, you need to go even more slowly, so she learns to trust your hands.

I do believe you rushed her into jumping, if she still had such holes on the flat.
I would get her really broke, both just in the arena, and on trails, and then, and only then, when she is relaxed in her mind and body, gives softly to a bit, is soft in her entire body, doing suppling exercises, lateral movements, great transitions, would I introduce jumping


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

Hi @Smilie, thanks for your response as always. You are very wise.

You're right, you are not supposed to progress to jumping until every step is taken to solidify your basics and "brokeness." This is common sense. In a whole, I would consider her 85% there. I would also say we've lost a lot of the great things from the beginning of this journey as we've progressed and advanced. She was a different horse when she was 800 lbs, 15.2, and thin as a rail. At 1100, 16.1, and beefy muscular, she is a bit more opinionated and believes she knows best. Year seven was all about testing and seeing how far she can go, and year 8 is becoming the "Give me a reason to work with you and I will, but give me no reason and I'm doing this my way." She's not nearly as adjustable to jump, she chooses when to break to the trot at a canter, and she will not give to the bit unless everything is just so and just right. The other day I got quite frustrated and started my horrible see-saw habit and i could interpret what she did in human terms: "you want contact and forward? FINE. How's THIS?" and she went blasting around the arena and the most forward trot we've ever had, but she would NOT slow down. She braced against the bit and leaned on it with all her strength, power-trotting around the arena. This is not what I want, but this is her response if she is frustrated at my riding. I completely understand her and I am working on being patient with this.

I don't want to have to left-right-left-right for her to lower her head, but the concern is - PLEASE HELP THIS FEAR GO AWAY IF YOU CAN - that if she is not "on the bit" her back is not "up" and she is not building topline. This is a horse who does get sore if she is not carrying her rider adequately. We have been RIDDLED with back pain and back problems. She has a spine deformity (roach) which is the source of all this discomfort. She can't "hollow" like a normal horse and instead tenses all the muscles of her back, which leads to a sore back if you cannot get her to push with her hind and thus lift with her abdominals and hence back. That is why I am so obsessed with the head set, because to me a round neck = round back. I posted about this in a thread and the reviews were mixed. I found out this is called "rollkur" and unfortunately, this is what my very first dressage trainer taught me and I am desperate to unlearn it.

As far as jumping goes, we incorporate very little. We do not do courses, we work on poles and "raised poles." Our facilities do not allow for full courses (area is too small), but she struggles enough in the poles that my trainer says we cannot progress until we have everything down pat. So, she completely agrees with you. Trails are a battle that my trainer is winning. Tyra tends to poke along behind the head horse in the "herd", but is still reactive if the other horses get nervous.

She's still reluctant to "look to her rider" for confidence and advice, preferring to rely on herself. This is something, even though we have provided her with love, comfort, shelter, care, food, and loyalty, she has not let go of. I hope one day she will learn to put her faith in people.


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

an image of what I am after:


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Old & heated thread on "round" here:

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding/horse-movement-inverted-round-674346/

They don't lift their back and their rider with their abdominal muscles. When moving, they contract their abdominal muscles to control the motion of their gut, not the rider. They tighten those muscles while extending. That is backwards from what a lot of people teach, but they have attached electrodes to find out WHEN a horse tightens its abdominals.

Bandit was ridden hard - runs of 10-15 miles - while carrying a rider who weighed up to 265+ in his socks. With tack, that would be 300 lbs on an 800 lb horse. Close to 40% of his body weight. He braced his back like an I-beam when I got him. Lots of two point is helping him. Serpentines help. A horse can't use its back until it can relax its back. 

You might try reading Schooling Your Horse by VS Littauer. You might also consider downloading his book Common Sense Horsemanship here:

https://archive.org/details/commonsensehorse010454mbp


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

Bsms, I know you do not believe horses to be able to spread the vertibrae of their spine based on posts I have read from you, but I do not think this is sound logic or accurate. Horses can go hollow and they can go unhollow. A horse is recommended to carry 20% of their bodyweight but some breeds can carry more than others with a hollow back. Many horses are ridden hollow and do just fine, but they do not stay as sound as the horses who are worked in self-carriage.

This has nothing to do with weight of the rider. This has to do with the muscles around the spine tensing because the body is not efficiently carrying the weight, and instead bracing against it.










I know about Littauer, but I have never read anything from him. I will do just that, because I'd like to know what you find so fascinating about him 

Although, @bsms, while I feel I must come to the defense of my sport, I do agree with A LOT of what you say in the thread, I just disagree that "it does not matter" if a horse is hollow or not. To my mare, it does, and her topline has suffered for so long. We learned too late that if she is not ridden "correctly" (in classical dressage terms), she will be backsore. It has nothing to do with how heavy the rider is, it has everything to do with her musculature not relaxing and benefiting from exercise.

The back is not "round" in the sense of a circle. I think "flat back" is a better describer for it. You can feel when you are sitting on a flat back or a hollow back. One feels like a sling, the other feels like you're sitting on something hard and firm and you are lifted up.

COMPLETELY agree with a relaxed back is the key to a "raised back." But what I was writing about refers to the idea that a raised back creates, on its own, a nose that is on the vertical. But there is also CLAIMS (not evidence, but not disproven) that hyperflexion in and of itself creates a "raised back" because of how the neck is so tightly coiled. That is what I was taught and I don't believe in rollkur at all, but I fed into the story because my mare's back HAD to be engaged, and no one really knew how...


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

what @jaydee says in the thread you linked me to is all true. I am not sure where you developed these ideas that a horse doesn't need to have their back lifted to go along? I assume in trail riding "self carriage" means a horse who does not need contact and can lead itself without rider inferference, but in dressage "self carriage" is the ability to LITERALLY carry the rider, all ### pounds of it while maintaining the same grace and elegance as if there were no one on him at all. I urge you to study classical dressage concepts. You like to read, I see, and if anything it would give you insight into what exactly it is you disagree with.

There are MANY, MANY, MANY dressage horses who perform in HOLLOW frames. Totilas being a famous, famous example. This is NOT ideal but at the time the front end mattered more than the hind end. We have since learned our sins.










^ this is NOT correct riding, but at the time it is what won, and it is what give dressage such a bad reputation.

Do you see how his back looks like a banana sling? How can you say that is raised to any degree? Any stretch of the imagination? It is hollow, plain and simple.


hollow back v









raised back v









I don't want to derail into a debate, but my mare has SI damage from being ridden in a "hollow back," so yes, I think it matters a great deal for us.

Do i require contact and collection out on the trail? Absolutely not. I don't feel, for us, it's efficient. Do I ride dressage out on the trail? No, not the same as the arena. I think the terrain of trail riding is what CREATES a well-muscled, fit horse, but do not delude yourself into thinking dressage created your athletic, fit horse. One is the equivalent to weight lifting, the other is equivalent to running. Aerobic vs. anaerobic.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

thecolorcoal said:


> I don't want to derail into a debate, but my mare has SI damage from being ridden in a "hollow back," so yes, I think it matters a great deal for us.


It sounds like you're trying to use logic to figure out what is best for your horse. That is admirable, and what I try to do also. 

What you posted showing the horse's spine is a drawing. It might be helpful to look at actual photographs of skeletons and read studies about what the spine does before believing that a drawing illustrates what the spine actually does. Of course, I started that controversial thread on roundness, wanting to have more information to help my critical thinking process. So you know what I think about it. 

Since you want to help your horse, you should know what vets say are sources of SI issues. Your horse has many reasons why she could have the back pain, and if you look at statistics they are not often caused by what you believed caused the pain. 
If a rounded back was helpful for the SI joint, then dressage horses should not be presenting as a high percentage of horses with injuries:



> Show jumping and dressage seem to be especially hard on the joint, according to a study carried out by Sue Dyson, FRCVS, and others at the Center for Equine Studies, Animal Health Trust, Newmarket, United Kingdom. That study analyzed records of 74 horses seen for SI pain at the center. Dressage horses and show jumpers accounted for almost 60 percent of the group.





> Unfortunately, most signs of SI pain can be produced by other conditions. In fact, SI pain often appears along with other musculoskeletal problems. In Dr. Dyson's study, 25 percent of the horses also had lameness in a front or hind limb, and another 25 percent had arthritis or other problems somewhere in their spines.
> 
> The problems are often related, but it can be hard to know what came first. Did a lower-leg lameness cause your horse to change his way of going in a way that stressed his SI? Or did SI pain cause him to alter his gaits in a way that overloaded a limb and caused the lameness? Solving the puzzle is a challenge for your veterinarian.
> 
> Determining the Problem


https://practicalhorsemanmag.com/health-archive/identify-and-treat-equine-sacroiliac-problems-11803

Your horse has unbalanced hooves, was barrel raced, and (no offense) brought into jumping three foot jumps on a schedule no professional would attempt. I'd guess your issues might lie with one of those things. You can develop a very strong back with horses by doing slowly progressing gymnastic exercises, hillwork and only working in a well fitting saddle. Worrying about the horse's frame while doing that work is unnecessary.


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

@gottatrot, and we have done all that. Let's not forget my horse had 8 months of "reset" time. She was not ridden during this span, we round-penned and worked on clinton anderson methods, which ended up doing nothing for us. We do not know where the SI issues originated (we know it was before I acquired her), but they were exasturbated by a badly fitting saddle causing her to hollow her back because of the rocking motion of the saddle which caused atrophy. Her SI pain only exhibits itself, now, with the farrier, as she cannot hold her back leg up for him for any span of time.

so if you consider the fact that my horse had almost a year off due to bad saddle fit, NOT related to jumping or anything else, we can negate all of that completely and start from scratch. The minute she was approved to be ridden again with a new saddle we worked on DRESSAGE. She only started jumping again back in September, so it's only been 4 months.

She's been ridden in dressage ever since July of 2017. If it weren't for dressage my horse would not be as strong and fit as she is, nor would she be as sound. I am not a trail rider. That is not my discipline. Arguments could be made that we'd get the same quality as a trail horse and you'd be RIGHT. A horse who is a thoroughbred, exclusively ridden on trails, is 2x as fit as my mare with a flat, raised topline and completely filled in, just like halla. and the owner doesn't do ANY dressage, but the hill work and terrain they travel on has CREATED the same muscle as a dressage horse.

So, to recap. Do you need dressage to have a fit and healthy horse? *NO*. Does dressage create a healthy and fit horse? Not if the rider focuses on what Edward Gal and Anky Van Grunsven focused on.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

thecolorcoal said:


> ...Bsms, I know you do not believe horses to be able to spread the vertibrae of their spine based on posts I have read from you, but I do not think this is sound logic or accurate. Horses can go hollow and they can go unhollow. A horse is recommended to carry 20% of their bodyweight but some breeds can carry more than others with a hollow back. Many horses are ridden hollow and do just fine, but they do not stay as sound as the horses who are worked in self-carriage...


Some things are not a matter of "belief". When you get on a horse, the back sags. The structure of the back means it cannot sag very much, so the surrounding muscles tense to protect the spine. But nothing the horse can do will round it up:








​ 
"_I just disagree that "it does not matter" if a horse is hollow or not._"

I've never said it doesn't matter if the horse is hollow. "Hollow" is simply a back that is sagging enough that the horse must tense the muscles tight to prevent damage, and it absolute affects the horse's comfort and the quality of the ride.

As I said, Bandit was ridden hard, trained to race, with 300 lbs of rider and tack on his 800 lb back. He had good reason to automatically brace his back as hard as possible when asked to trot. That is "hollow". It has nothing to do with head position.

A horse CAN lift its back at the withers. Dressage values that lifting motion - which is indisputably possible. Western Pleasure, according to the people who have done it, values that lifting motion as well.

Meanwhile, the opposite of a braced back (hollow) is a supple back. A supple back, lifting at the front, is collected. A supple back, using the energy for as much forward motion as possible, is extended - properly. Supple is good. Braced is bad. Doesn't matter if it is trail riding, dressage, Western pleasure, anything - supple is a strong, healthy horse using himself well.








​ 
I am not anti-dressage. As a western rider, I like that variation of the dressage training scale because it doesn't use contact. "Connection" - listening to and responding to cues - can be done bitless and is just as important to trail riding and western riding as it is to dressage. A horse accepting the bit and using it for two-way communication with the rider is good riding. Contact is obviously required for dressage, but good contact is rooted in communication. Dressage takes it a bit further, obviously.

But you cannot have good contact with a tense horse. You cannot have good contact with a resisting horse. A horse whose back is tense in anticipation of pain cannot give good contact. Good contact requires trust - and so does suppleness. I may not ride with collection as a goal, and I don't value physical contact with the bit, but much of the dressage training scale still applies.

And it IS a scale. It starts at the bottom. "Forward, calm and straight" is a phrase most dressage riders recognize. Heck, it COMES from dressage. That foundation - moving forward without fear, with even tempo and a supple back - can take a long time to build. A horse like Bandit will always remember how to brace and resist. He has to learn trust in me in order to relax. When he is relaxed and accepting, I can steer him by looking and wanting to change direction. He'll feel it and do it. But he has also learned to defend himself. To protect himself from hard use that could hurt him.

In @*gottatrot* 's journal, I think she is incorporating the dressage training scale in her riding of Rascal on the beach. Rhythm, Relaxation, Connection, Impulsion. That sounds to me like what she is working on with Rascal, and it is what I work on with Bandit every time we head into the desert.

Littauer says the foundation of "Forward, Calm & Straight" can take a couple of months starting with a horse, or a year or more with a horse who has been badly started. *Two and a half years with Bandit, and rising*. It is much easier to destroy trust than to rebuild it after losing it.


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

@bsms, I read that entire thread, too, and after reading and thinking I realized you are saying pretty much everything dressage is about, just in a different way. So for that, good for you! It is an excellent way to rethink very old, classical principals that were proven, or at the very least not disproven, before science caught up. 

I'm definitely not trying to be defensive. At first I was a little concerned at how different it sounded, but I quickly came to understand that there is more than one way to skin a cat. I think i replied to that post, too, despite reviving it from the grave (oops). 

But I admit that now i am in a connundrum. The front end is a reflection of what the hind end is doing. But you can have power forward and the head does not come down which means it is still a disconnected, not connected (CONNECTED, NOT COLLECTED) trot/canter/walk. This is what I am struggling with. I "catch" the energy in the front but Tyra will not release to the pressure. She braces against it because she does not want to submit herself in our ride. I understand she has trust issues, and submission comes with the horse trusting the rider, but we also can't have that "correct back" without her also accepting the bit, or at least my training says so. We get flicks of it, but it is not consistent.

That is why I am frustrated with my horse. I feel I am doing everything right, and yet I am still not getting the "textbook results."


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Please, don't think I'm anti-dressage, because as @bsms said, I use the principles in training every day. I just don't believe that the neck carriage, head angle or constant bit contact are part of the equation until perhaps when you are working on lifting the withers for collection much later down the line when it is important for showing. As you know, that doesn't come into play until you are in the upper levels. And I don't want you to think I had bad dressage lessons, one of my instructors had a beautiful warmblood she was showing 3rd level and demonstrate all the great movements I was working with on my horse. At the time I thought it all was wonderful.

It's just that I don't buy the whole package anymore, but think some of the principles are sound and based on science, and some are made up and not supported by science, so should be discarded. 

Your insights on the other thread are interesting and thoughtful. But as you say, in order to do certain things a horse must have the right temperament and also body structure, which is why we see the warmbloods at the upper levels. They are bred to move like that and to accept that kind of mental pressure.  

I know you are showing dressage, so this is just an opinion I'm sharing:

I don't believe connection needs to be through pressure on the bit, but rather through the mind of the horse. Do you want the horse connected to the bit, or to your entire body? What I want is for the horse to listen to the bit each time I apply it, which means for most horses I ride (hotter types) I don't apply pressure constantly. In order to accept pressure, the horse must find release. But also, I want the horse to feel me stepping harder into the right stirrup, and turning my torso slightly, and following the feel of my weight and legs to know where I am looking. Those are things I learned from dressage that are excellent and work to make a horse an amazing partner. That is connection to the horse.

If you start with the lightest contact you can (which is sometimes heavier on a very green horse) for cues, and start at the bottom of the training ladder trying to get the rhythm and relaxation first, then you can get the horse using her body and the supple back that comes from feeling comfortable and relaxed with the rider. 

It's not your responsibility to catch the horse's energy. That's what the horse needs to learn to use her front legs for. You want to train the horse to catch the energy of the hind end thrust with the braking and lifting power of the front, which is something they do with their legs and balance as they get stronger, not something you cause by holding onto the bit.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

First of all, riding in a 'natural frame, as when trial riding is neither collected, nor hollowed out.
While I might ask one of my show horses to move
collected for a short while, going down the road, just because some part of me, just has to train, even if just for a few minutes, I do not trail ride my horse collected, but neither is my horse going along hollowed out.
Dressage is not the one and only discipline where a horse is asked to move collected, and western, we prefer that collection to be on a loose rein, off of seat and leg alone. Not saying to ride with contact is wrong, just different, and something I am not fond of. I certainly do not like a horse to get behind the vertical, which is acceptable even western, as in Arabian classes, and seen in some dressage horses (not all )
My horses know when to move collected, with sow ring expectations, and when to move just natural, going down a trail. Riding collected, just trail riding, is ccounter productive


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I also read alot of horse info, have taken numerous clinics with many differnt people, do read some old masters, but don't get hung up on them, as being some sort of Holy Grail
Take Xenophon for instance. He was stated to be an enlightened horseman. Well, he was, compared to horsemen in his day and age, but even he advised the use of two types of bits, One was the Hedgehog, with prongs that pressed against the horse's face . Even the smooth bit, he used, is not what would be considered smooth today.
We don't ride our horses off to war today, and much of classical dressage was based on that fact,
We do work cattle today, and the Vaqueros adapted/kept some of their European dressage principles, but just used then to help form their own program known as the Vaquero training method,and which was useful as to what those horses did on this side of the world-work cattle. Thus, the creation of the Spade bit horse, a tradition still used in training working cowhorses today, but in a slightly kinder apporach
What I am saying, everything progresses, changes, with the times. Does not matter if it is medicine, transportation or horse training.

An example, given at one of our Horse Breeder and owner conference, just to illustrate that following tradition for tradition sake, becuase that is how it was always done, is at times very narrow minded

Okay, here was an example. A new bride, looked everywhere to find that blackened baking sheet her grandnmother had baked so many wonderful cookies on.
Giving up, she finally asked her grandmother as to where she could find such a baking sheet.
"well, dear, was the reply, ' it only became that color with time and use.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

thecolorcoal said:


> But I admit that now i am in a connundrum. The front end is a reflection of what the hind end is doing. But you can have power forward and the head does not come down which means it is still a disconnected, not connected (CONNECTED, NOT COLLECTED) trot/canter/walk. This is what I am struggling with. I "catch" the energy in the front but Tyra will not release to the pressure. She braces against it because she does not want to submit herself in our ride. I understand she has trust issues, and submission comes with the horse trusting the rider, but we also can't have that "correct back" without her also accepting the bit, or at least my training says so. We get flicks of it, but it is not consistent.
> 
> That is why I am frustrated with my horse. I feel I am doing everything right, and *yet I am still not getting the "textbook results."*


*
*


These 'textbooks' cause us more grief~!

Are you saying your horse has trust issues in the sense that she is worried that she won;t get her head/mouth back if she allows you to take a hold of it?

I have always been taught that lateral flexion comes before longitudinal flexion. thus, if you horse is not dealing with your asking her to flex longitudinally, you can help her loosen at the poll and the jaw by getting some soft lateral flexion.

And, like you said, doing things in short spurts, with nice long, neck walks on a loose rein in between. If the horse knows that by giving in the jaw and poll, she earns a loose rein walk, she will do this more. I've seen dressage lessons where the instructor NEVER told the student to let the horse walk out in freedom. Now how's that supposed to build trust in a rider's hands?


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

GOOD POINTS @tinyliny OMG!

Such valuable info I'm reading! The lateral flexion is what I am doing, I think. Is this the same as "playing with the bit?" to soften her hardened jaw? I fear I may be see-sawing. I have a very bad habit of doing this. 

I need to break this down more. In my lessons my trainer requires her to be "in a frame" for the entire hour except on breaks, but that is only one day of the entire week. we still have 6 days of free rides. Maybe I should not be so determined to 'get it' immediately. She will give with the trainer, but I admit my trainer uses more force than I do and has better strength in her legs to ask for more forward. I know this will make @bsms cringe... I'm sorry, dude, I cringe with you. All my vets had said that she needs to use her back, but HOW a horse uses their back, what proves they use their back, is very much up for debate based on @gottatrot's thread. I like reading about the different theories and experiences. 

Now I know "round" is the wrong word for it. "Relaxed: is a better word, but is "lifted" still in the realm of incorrect terminology? Her back at rest is a different back than her back at work. It is softer, more natural looking, where her back at work is a direct line front her SI all the way to the base of her withers. Completely straight.

Dressage is not a natural state for her. She prefers jumping, where contact is not required (at least in hunters) and a loose rein is preferred to the tighter reins you see in showjumping. She USED to go off a loopy, floppy rein, but since starting her dressage training we are trying to teach her to move into the contact, and only then can we start asking for less and less.

As far as her trust issues go, I think she doesn't trust my contact and that is why she will not seek it. I have a bad habit of playing with the bit too much. When she does reach for it, it is a magical feeling like we are one. We get maybe 10 great steps and then the connection is broken due to a distraction or an accidental shift of my hands. Dressage is HARD you guys! Mad respect to the FEI riders who can get this 'contact' for 7 straight riding minutes in a distracting arena!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

It is challenging. I don't even take lessons anymore, and I ride a very easy to ride ol' horse, and we just do trails, so I come from a place where little is expected of me or the horse.

I do, however, remember how frustrating it was to learn that 'dialogue' with the horse; where you ask with a leg, you get something, you respond with a hand, then you get a different response, and it's back and forth. you and the hrose are bouncing back from one aid to the other, from one response to another, with short passages through a 'balanced' place in the middle where, to your joy, and his steadiness, you feel the connection and the horse is between your aids!!!

A rider that is just learning will make big corrections with hand and leg, and a horse that is nervous or tense will also make big reactions, so the 'bounce' from one side to the other is bigger, and it's harder to find that middle place, as you move past it too fast to feel it.

A really advanced rider makes such small correction that there is very little bounce, and they stay in the middle place with what looks like little effort, but in actuality, they are making minute corrections all the time.

We get that way with a ton of practice, and each step forward is very exciting, isn't it?

With regard to your mare being braced on the rein and stiff and ungiving . . . 
We all know 'less is more', it's a goal, but sometimes a person does have to do more, to get unstuck from a position of matched forces with a horse. Like, you put leg on and the horse is so dull they respond only enough to just barely go enough for you to stop leg, and then they drop back and you must leg again. it's a tug of war/push me pull you. That is not a good place to be, so at that point you get your whip out and say, "NO! you will respect my leg, now!" . . then you will get a horse who accepts a whisper, but gives a lot ! that stalemate is gone.

And, similar sort of thing with the bit, getting a hrose to respect it softly. 
Say you put some firmness into your hands, asking the horse to bend at the poll, or to slow down, or to lower her head (if she were stargazing), and she just gets stiffer, just enough to match your hand pressure. that's a stalemate. you have to do something to change that equal position, you and horse. You can put more leg on, which often gets a horse to drop their head abit, . . . . you can ask for an inside bend . . . . . you can give your hands forward . . . you can tap the shoulder with a crop, or do something that breaks the horse from being braced against your hands. you can even take up more pressure. But, you must do something that breaks the horse out of that place where they MATCH your pressure. 

They must give first.

and then you give them more

So, the whole working dialogue you have with their mouth and their mind is such that you get them to give first, then you reward them hugely with a great reduction in pressure. both reins forward, or one rein forward, a bit of long and low, etc. but a very recognizable reward.

but . sometimes getting a horse to soften on the bit can require being firmer than they are braced, so you don't get stuck always in the same place of no change.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Even riding with contact, I think there has to be some lightening of that contact, when the hrose is moving correctly, or where is the reward?
If your horse is heavy in your hands, resistant, then she is also on her front end-can;t have it both ways! When you are riding her, using legs, to get that engagement, to know you are getting somewhere, there has to be a period where the horse feels light in your hands, versus you trying to hold her together
I don't care as to what discipline you are riding, it makes no sense to a horse, to move as he understands he is being asked to, yet gets no reward. 
I totally don't get that concept of training.
I think your horse is quite green, and needs to be driven hard with legs, so she will accept a taht bit contact, become light, versus not driving her up hard enough to get that give, or the hrose just needs to go right back and learn about giving to a bit, as she would have learned none of that as a race or, or being trained to run barrels.
Can you post a video of you riding her, as they say, a picture is worth a 1000 words!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

personally, from what you have written, I think this horse needs a lot of basics, before worrying about moving in a collected frame
A horse, when asked to give in the poll and face,with light aids, but instead, stiffens jaws, shakes head, sticks head in air, decides when work is done an bucks-sorry that hrose is not ready to be ridden in any frame-she needs to get soft and broke first.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Good stuff from @Smilie and @tinyliny.


thecolorcoal said:


> Such valuable info I'm reading! The lateral flexion is what I am doing, I think. Is this the same as "playing with the bit?" to soften her hardened jaw?* I fear I may be see-sawing*. I have a very bad habit of doing this.


Your instructor is teaching you about inside leg to outside rein? To me, in the practical world this means that my body is not used equally for cues. Both arms, legs and seat bones are not moving in mirror image, but instead reflect the bend and movement of the horse. The reins also are not used equally (especially in a snaffle). This is more that I learned from dressage lessons and reading that is good and practical. But even though you usually don't pull both reins together equally, you also don't just use one rein at a time.

Ideally, we don't use one aid in isolation of all others (pull the horse around with the left rein). You can try, but my mare Amore was a better instructor of this than any human teacher. If you pulled on one rein in isolation, she'd open her mouth and let the bit slide through - once I had the entire O-ring bit on one side of her face. Rudimentary riding is pushing with one leg, pulling with one rein, etc.

If you're finding yourself see-sawing, I would guess you are using one rein in isolation of the other. You can't really see saw if you are using both reins together. Meaning, if I cue with the left rein to ask for a little turn or flex of the neck, or to ask the horse to slow, while that rein is cueing, the other rein is being held steady. 

Even on the straight and outside in nature, you have an inside rein and outside rein. The outside rein is whichever one you are not asking for "give" with, or whichever one is not on the leading leg of the canter. That is your steady/outside rein. The other rein is your cueing/inside rein, until you change what you are doing. When I had difficulty with the outside rein, at first, I would put my hand on the horse's neck to help keep it more steady. 

Say I'm trotting forward in a field. When I want to cue the horse, I'm not going to use both sides of the snaffle. If I'm turning, the outside/steady rein is obvious. If I'm continuing straight, I choose an outside rein and hold that steady while I cue the horse. For example, I want to transition to a walk, so I hold the outside rein steady and cue the horse with the inside rein (and my seat/legs) to walk. I'm not going to be cueing one side, then the other, except for the rare occasion when I'm switching the inside rein doing flying changes or trying to slow a horse that seems to be stiff on one side or not responding. 

I know of only one time when you should see saw, and that is when a bolting horse has the bit in his teeth. That's really the only way to jar it loose. Even when I'm "snapping" (as my friend calls it) a horse that is rooting the nose out or bucking, I'm holding one rein steady and giving the jerk with the other. I think it's important that cues are clear...the horse should know the difference between the steady, slow pull of a cue versus the sharp jerk of a reprimand. Wiggling or rattling the bit around doesn't mean a whole lot to the horse, in my opinion.


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

I suppose, @*Smilie* , I do agree with you, but the training we are doing is much more advanced than anything she's done before.

I admit I think i disagree that this is not a "discipline thing." In my world of hunters, flying changes are one of the first things horses learn. They also learn a type of self carriage that is derived from any bit contact or leg contact.

In dressage, I am learning flying changes are an advanced maneuver, leg yields come later on, but the very first thing a horse must learn, green or seasoned in another discipline, is to *accept contact of the bit* and to give to it. This comes later in a lot of other disciplines. The head carriage is irrelevant and is only a sign of what the hind end is doing, but you must *catch* that hind energy in the front, which creates the frame. The horse cannot move its head out, it must find its own release by bringing its head in. Your job is to simply hold your hands in a consistent place and the horse will release itself.

She can walk/trot/canter. Leg yields are advanced, so she's not good at them yet. She can bend left and right, on a circle. The head shaking has stopped ever since we changed bits. Why? I don't know, but I don't consider tack issues the same as training issues. I give her a pass for reacting in tack she didn't like. I enjoy when she tells me things are not working for her.

Attached are videos of her being ridden. Not with me, but I will get them soon. The rider is my friend and knows nothing about dressage, and is essentially copying what I look like, but even without knowledge my horse still finds her frame. She's also not exceptionally good... so keep that in mind, there are a lot of things she is not doing right, but the horse looks nice.






I hope that makes a little sense.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

thecolorcoal said:


> In dressage, I am learning flying changes are an advanced maneuver, leg yields come later on, but the very first thing a horse must learn, green or seasoned in another discipline, is to *accept contact of the bit* and to give to it. This comes later in a lot of other disciplines. The head carriage is irrelevant and is only a sign of what the hind end is doing, but you must *catch* that hind energy in the front, which creates the frame.


Here I am talking about dressage, and we have members currently training and showing who could be more helpful, I am rusty.

But my instructors would have said no, some purists don't even use the word "frame" in dressage. It's not about riding for a frame, and your focus actually sounds less like dressage and more like when I was taking hunter pleasure lessons. During those we worked on headset, frame and getting the horse to move with the head on the vertical rather than focusing on the dressage training ladder. 

My instructors would have said forget about the head until you have forward, rhythm and straight. A horse leaning around corners and not giving you a true rhythm and tempo in the gait is not ready to be focusing on "catching" the energy, you're still trying to create the right type of movement without interfering until the horse learns how to maintain tempo, and shorten and lengthen gaits.

They also had me introducing lateral movements far before thinking about going on the bit. "You must have bend before you can go straight." They looked a lot at the horse's footfalls to see if we were tracking on the same lines front to back, and keeping that through the bend around the corners. Lots of circles and lateral introduction. Since you are showing first level, I assumed you are doing leg yields. I believe it is usual to be working on things on the next level beyond what you are showing, and leg yields are asked for at first level.

This advice is not based on my current riding philosophies of riding per se, but from back when I was getting decent dressage instruction, and since that's what you're wanting to work on I'd suggest being critical of what you are paying for.
Have you seen your instructor riding her own horses - are they doing correct dressage movements? I'm skeptical since many people "teach dressage" but one instructor I talked to had less of an idea about dressage than I did and no show record.


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

I think this is excellent, @gottatrot. I'll have a talk with my instructor. I was trained in classical dressage where lightness is most important and impulsion comes after the horse is light in front, so the german/dutch style that I'm learning now makes me incredibly nervous and hesitant. My biggest fear is that we will move into Rollkur. This trainer is not pro-rollkur but at the same time my mare just gets heavier and heavier instead of lighter. She does practice LDR, like steffan peters, which to some is no better... we must have a chat, as obviously I am not on the same page as my instructor.

I'm not switching trainers because this woman has done amazing things for my horse, but I am considering getting dressage lessons from a DIFFERENT trainer. Current trainer was an eventer and I do understand "eventing dressage" and "dressage" don't exactly follow the same timeline. If need be, I have a GP rider and trainer who isn't much more than current trainer to come out and help me. That's no problem, I am just not willing to leave this trainer overall. Maybe my horse just needs a different style and slower approach.

Thanks gottatrot, SUPER helpful advice.


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

Case in point: i cannot get it, my instructor can get it and my leaser can get it. What am I doing wrong?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

In western riding (talking of the event/class that is called western riding, where the pattern calls for precise flying changes at markers) and dressage, flying changes are taught to be done on cue, at an exact spot, independent of a change of direction
Flying changes, done a speed, change of direction, you can do on a pretty green horse, if he is athletic at all
You are talking of completely different types of flying changes- one is what is often called, "auto changes, English, or ''cowboy changes western
In fact you can take a horse, that you could never cue for flying changes, just going straight, and without speed, and if he is at all athletic, run pole bending on him, where he has to change leads,or fall down.
When I took some of my first clinics, it was with someone called Pat Wise. Every horse in that clinic was doing flying changes after a day. That change was purel;y done out of speed and direction change.
You came across center at speed,in a circle, either direction, stepped into the old lead stirrup with a bit more weight, made sure leg was off new lead side, and then simply changed direction. That is a flying change out of speed and direction-horses do them in the pasture all the time.
Now, set up some plyons, a few feet apart, and take that jumper through them, changing leads midway,between those plyons, in a straight line.
Apples and oranges, as collected precise flying lead changes are an advanced maneuver, where the horse changes leads off of cues, and not speed and direction change.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

thecolorcoal said:


> I think this is excellent, @gottatrot. I'll have a talk with my instructor. I was trained in classical dressage where lightness is most important and impulsion comes after the horse is light in front, so the german/dutch style that I'm learning now makes me incredibly nervous and hesitant. My biggest fear is that we will move into Rollkur. This trainer is not pro-rollkur but at the same time my mare just gets heavier and heavier instead of lighter. She does practice LDR, like steffan peters, which to some is no better... we must have a chat, as obviously I am not on the same page as my instructor.
> 
> I'm not switching trainers because this woman has done amazing things for my horse, but I am considering getting dressage lessons from a DIFFERENT trainer. Current trainer was an eventer and I do understand "eventing dressage" and "dressage" don't exactly follow the same timeline. If need be, I have a GP rider and trainer who isn't much more than current trainer to come out and help me. That's no problem, I am just not willing to leave this trainer overall. Maybe my horse just needs a different style and slower approach.
> 
> Thanks gottatrot, SUPER helpful advice.


You have it backwards. When a horse has impulsion and gives correctly to that bit barrier, he is light in front


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

@Smilie, then that probably means she is not giving correctly, but leaning, yes?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

In that video, with your friend riding, Your horse to me seems quick legged and quite flat, with not much lift


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

Yes, she is not being ridden correctly either. There is no suspension. She is naturally a "daisy cutter" mover and suspension with this horse must be developed. I'll try and get some videos of my trainer riding her, to show the difference.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

thecolorcoal said:


> @Smilie, then that probably means she is not giving correctly, but leaning, yes?


Yes, and she is also on her front end. When a horse is giving correctly, driving up, they become light in your hands


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

Thanks @Smilie, this is something I need to focus on feeling. I greatly appreciate your expertise.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I strongly recommend "Falling for Fallacies" by Jean-Claude Racinet. Some chapters:

That engagement of the hind legs will always lighten the front end

That lifting a horse's neck is bound to hollow his back

That the horse should be 'pushed onto the bit' by the rider's legs and seat

That the horse should be bent by the rider's inside leg

That there is a constant 'circulation of energy' from the rear of the horse to the bit and back to the rear

That the horse should be worked in a 'long and low' frame

He also wrote "Racinet explains Baucher". It is a harder read, but it makes more sense to me than most of the dressage books I've read.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Thanks, BSMS, but it is a well understood principle, by any trainer worth his salt, that I ever took a clinic with, except that bent to the inside leg, bit, except of course, if you are asking for a turn
Also, you are also talking of a horse ridden always with some contact. Ideally, western, that bit barrier becomes an 'invisible barrier, the horse respects, without actual contact., but it takes training to get to that point.
So quite right, and why I always say, if a horse is not soft and giving, in the poll and face , to light bit contact, You hold that contact (don't pull, increase contact, just hold, and DRIVE with your legs, for as much as it takes, for that horse to become soft and giving-then reward
If you instead, try to out pull a horse, you will never win. You can hold a horse, for as much as it takes, while driving with your legs, until he softens tot hat contact, just never jerk on that horse, or you soon will have a jerk for a horse.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Not sure it is a well understood principle. Racinet starts each chapter with quotes proposing what he then argues against. For example:



> ...Most riders understand that the energy needs to get from the hindquarters to the bit, but some forget that there must also be a connection through the bit to the hindquarters. When the rider uses rebalancing half-halts as frequently as the driving aids, the horse’s energy recycles. The energy reaches the bit and the horse “pushes away from the bit,” causing the weight to transfer back to an engaged hind foot. Then the forehand lightens. The German word for this concept is Abstossen. When the horse pushes off from the bit, he continues to reach forward, but the energy “bounces off" the bit and transfers to an engaged hind leg that is flat on the ground and carrying weight. Then the horse thrusts again to perpetuate an ongoing cycle of energy.
> 
> The Heavy and the Light, by Lendon Gray, Lilo Fore, and Beth Baumert
> November 2013 USDF Connection





> When riding the horse long and low, the back came up, the bow from hindquarters to mouth was put in tension, the entire muscle chain was stretched. There is no difference when collecting the horse, except the stretch is now directed upward instead of forward. This elevation against gravity, without getting tight in the process, requires a great deal of basic tension (*and requires the horse to be closed in between the driving reins and restraining aids*). The "rubber band" may never lose its arching oscillations. Especially during collection, the oscillations become rather pronounced, and the horse's back moves increasingly up and down as the horses steps and strides become loftier and more cadenced. *This of course requires that the horse is well contained between the pushing aids and restraining aids, because this relatively high basic tension with is necessary for collection* can only be obtained in this way...Prolonged collecting work is very strenuous for the horse." - Balance in Movement, The Seat of the Rider by Susanne von Dietze, page 120


Contrast that with:



> Now let's come to the centerpiece of this second manner, the principle of 'hand without legs, legs without hand'.
> 
> One will first notice, for the record, that legs is plural whereas hand is always singular. This is because the rider at the time of Baucher only used one hand - the left - to steer his horse. Both reins of curb were held by the left hand. As for the reins of snaffle, they were let loose or held by the right hand.
> 
> ...


It seems to me, @Smilie, that a lot of western thought is in alignment with what Racinet & Baucher say. It certainly makes more sense to me that trying to 'hold a horse together' in a turn, for example. And the first time I heard 'hand without legs, legs without hand', it was from a western riding instructor. I doubt he had read Baucher, but the idea matched how he liked to ride. IIRC, he said it as "_Use your leg or use your hand, but if you use both at the same time, the horse will think you're stupid._"


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

my trainer would teach me this, too, without really using those words. As an example, I would ask her why I would not just use my inside leg to push a horse who is falling in on the circle, and is bracing against the rein, toward the outside of the circle (as is commonly the advice given in dressage).

She said you'd just be pushing a boarded up horse over, and thus teaching him to move in a stiff body way. She would say to get the softness to the bit/hand, FIRST and then you may use your leg to move the horse laterally, but never to have him leaning hard on your rein, and then adding in leg.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

thecolorcoal said:


> Case in point: i cannot get it, my instructor can get it and my leaser can get it. What am I doing wrong?



I've forgotten what 'it' is. giving to the bit?

I just watched the two videos and I think your horse is adorable! not a darn thing wrong with that horse, not a thing. you have all you need to get a nice dressage horse. ok, not a grand prix, but a nice ride.

yes, she trots flat, and yes, she is heavy on the forehand. I suspect she may be a downhill horse by conformation. but, her trot, while 'daisy cutter' is beautifully rythmic. 

what looks like is happening is that the rider in the first video is holding her arms rigid, pointing downward, and trying to 'hold' the hrose's head down. It's the old "driving a wheelbarrow' position. Rigidity in the riders hand breed rigidity in the horse's head. your mare is holding her head real stiff, over bent at the poll, and kind of plowing into it, in an exact mirror image of the rider; holding a stiff , bent forward body, plowing down onto her too-low hands.

I am only saying this to you because you say this rider rides as you do, and you asked for some feedback on your riding. normally, we don't post videos of other riders for critique, unless we have been given permission from them, or they are professional riders/trainers who post their own videos of their work on public forums, open for public consideration.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I think the rider has to also slow down her posting, letting the horse lift her, versus working so hard at posting. Yes, the horse has potential, but she is on the forehand at the moment, and being more quick legged then desired.

BSMS, lets go back again, to the difference between western and English, in the fact that eventually you want that western horse, not to need the bit to contain the energy generated by the hind end, BUT to mentally accept a bit barrier that is not being applied, and keep that top line and collection off of seat and legs alone.
I am not criticizing riding with contact, as you certainly have to use it western, before you ever get tot he point where the horse no longer needs to be micro managed, but keeps that frame without that bit support. My point merely is, your reference is taken from a time that everyone rode with two hands and contact, so it is not a broad brush you can apply across all disciplines
The only constant between all disciplines, JMO, is that you ride with more legs then hands, back to front. 
Far as what leg you use, I don't worry about whether it is inside or outside leg when you are turning, as you use whatever leg is needed to fix the body part that is out of aleignment.Ideally, a western horse turns off of the indirect rein alone, and keeps that aleignment by himself.
However, if the shoulders are not following, you use outside leg. If the ribs are hanging into the turn, you use inside leg. You can't ride a board
I really don't think you can get that feel and timing, just reading, but rather by riding, getting that feel, knowing what leg or rein to use, feeling when that horse gets out of correct aleignment, drops a shoulder, , pops hip out of lead, ect
The principle that remains, regardless of direction of turn, and leg used, is that we teach horses to move away from pressure. Thus, to turn left, I would just lay the right rein against the neck, then if the shoulders don't follow that indication of turn, I would use my right leg, , if the ribs are hanging in, I would use my left leg. In either case, it is what is out of aleignment, you are getting to yield to that leg Inside should drops, then inside rein up against neck, If you think about what body part is out of the correct bend, use the 'move away from pressure, it becomes a very easy KISS principle


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Sorry, OP, as I know I am getting a bit off topic, going into what is desired western, but It is just in response to BSMS, and am not advising you to ride other then your discipline wants, except I really really believe any horse needs to be given a reward, by at least lightening bit contact when he is going correctly, and when a horse is not accepting the bit, you never try and force it with the hands, but just hold and drive with your legs, using legs harder, not ever hands.
In fact, that is how draw reins create a false collection, with those draw reins getting that head, but also forcing the horse onto his front end


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_in the fact that eventually you want that western horse, not to need the bit to contain the energy generated by the hind end, BUT *to mentally accept a bit barrier that is not being applied*.._."

That sounds like the horse is moving in a given manner in response to a threat. And the energy can never be contained. It must be expended in motion. There really is no 'circle of energy'. Ever.

"_My point merely is, your reference is taken from a time that everyone rode with two hands and contact, so it is not a broad brush you can apply across all disciplines..._"

First, as Racinet wrote: "_This is because the rider at the time of Baucher only used one hand - the left - to steer his horse. Both reins of curb were held by the left hand. As for the reins of snaffle, they were let loose or held by the right hand._"

Second, I think you are missing the point of what he wrote. His goal - admirably - is not a horse who holds a frame because the bit is there as a barrier, either used or implied, but a horse who feels the bit and responds willingly & willingly to the cues. He wrote elsewhere: "_The first of these principles requires the systematic disengagement of the aids as soon as they have been obeyed. The aids should start, restore, and transform; they should never MAINTAIN any given situation. The horse should not be carried by the rider's hands and legs; he should be constantly left free to perform ON HIS OWN what he has been required to by the aids._"

I think Racinet would recoil from the idea that the bit should be a barrier. That is fine for a very green horse, but a bit should no more impose the rider's will than a whip should be imposing the request of the legs. Imposing via bit or whip may be a first step, at times. Lord knows I've needed to do so and have done so - as a training tool. But my goal is willing, relaxed cooperation, not (frankly) "Ask, Tell, DEMAND!"

I guess what bothers me most is the idea that western and European riding are in opposition to each other. Jean-Claude Racinet was obviously not trying to train a cow horse, and I suspect he'd find Western Pleasure unpleasant. *But why can we rejoice in common ground and in similar concepts?*

"_I really don't think you can get that feel and timing, just reading, but rather by riding..._"

Duh! You mean I can't learn to water ski without getting wet? No kidding! Oddly enough, I do ride. And I experiment while riding, using my reading as a catalyst to thinking and adopting new ways.

When re-reading what Racinet wrote about Baucher, it struck me how similar much of what he wrote was to traditional western riding. I found it interesting that at the end of Baucher's life, he was writing things that a lot of western riders and instructors would say "Amen!" to. NOT because western riding is indistinguishable from Baucher, or because they had the same goals, but because both Baucher and a lot of cowboys have concluded you can get good results that way.

I think of myself as a western rider, but I don't want to limit my thinking to "approved western clinicians". Mia and now Bandit even more so sometimes seems to WANT contact. Sometimes. And if he wants it, not to "hold him together" but to understand, then I'm happy to give it to him. Just as I use a forward seat in a western saddle, and like reading Caprilli, this backyard rider of Craigslist horses doesn't want his horse to think the bit is a barrier to avoid. Neither do I want to use it all the time. As in most of my riding, I seek for the "mutually acceptable compromise" that will make my horse and I a team.

BTW - I've never ridden in a sport coat or a double bridle, and doubt I ever will. But if reading (in English) gives me ideas to try...I will:








​


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

Well bsms there are many things I do, or don’t do, because of a ‘threat’, unwanted consequence, or a boundary. To me there is nothing wrong with a little fear which makes boundaries. Keeps us from paying the piper so to speak. One can train a horse to the bit without fear just like one can housetrain a dog, or potty train a child without fear. The horse, dog and child become educated by setting boundaries of what is expected.

I always feel you think contact, or being on the bit, is done through intimidation and pain. 

At the moment I am retraining a gaited horse who has never had anything but a shanked Walker bit in his mouth. He is sorely under educated when it comes to the bit. He was trained to fear the bit. He is quite the project, but is understanding the bit (snaffle) is a connection between me and him. A communication device that we can speak to each other through. I ask, he responds, he asks or says he doesn’t understand, and I give and try a different way of asking. I am having to change his mindset that a bit doesn’t not mean pain, nor that I will dominate him through fear.

I would rather train an unstarted horse, than have to break through a wall of fear in a 11 year old horse. We take half a step forward one day, and seven back the next.

The universe is nothing but a circle of energy. We die and our energy goes back into the universe to give more life. Our bodies are nothing but energy. How can there not be a circle of energy?

I got kinda rambly......lolol


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

Hi @tinyliny, Yes, that is my friend who does not have any dressage training, but she tries to copy what I do. Friday I will get a video of me riding Tyra, I don't even know what I look like!

I believe how Meg rides may be what I look like too, but with a tad bit shorter reins and an even lower long-and-low rein. 

Obviously this is NOT what I am doing but this is the *goal* my trainer has set for me. This is what she wants my horse's frame to look like, as per Steffan Peters:






In the canter, I hold Tyra more like Steffan holds ravel, instead of how Meg holds Tyra in that video. But to even accomplish that and HOLD it I must anchor my hand TO MY SADDLE and bend her in with my inside rein. It is almost comical and I don't feel this is "correct riding." I am fixing her and forcing her into a frame instead of her willingly giving, but my trainer says to wait, wait, wait, until she gives and NOT TO RELEASE until she does. Like i said, this flies in the face of my classical dressage training. I admit I feel uncomfortable with this style and this position but I am an open minded person. I am learning a NEW school of dressage. I must stay open minded but ALSO aware of how this may not BE the style for Tyra.

off topics are all good! This is such an interesting read.

The quick-leggedness Smilie is describing is *NOT* idea for dressage, but it is for our specific jumping discipline, or at least not penalized as well. She does NOT have natural dressage movement, nor should she be expected to as she is a tb and not a wb. Without bred-in talent, we must develop it through training. Dressage for us is more of an extension of hunters and provides us with an opportunity to work on our flat training and correct way of going. It is not her end-all sport, but merely a complimentary addition to her being a hunter.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

sarahfromsc said:


> Well bsms there are many things I do, or don’t do, because of a ‘threat’, unwanted consequence, or a boundary. To me there is nothing wrong with a little fear which makes boundaries...
> 
> I always feel you think contact, or being on the bit, is done through intimidation and pain...
> 
> ...The universe is nothing but a circle of energy. We die and our energy goes back into the universe to give more life. ...


1 - If fear was the only tool I had, and it was needed for safety's sake, I'd use it. But unless it is the last resort, I don't plan on using it. I think the bit can and should SOMETIMES be used to set boundaries, but not to the extent that it becomes something to avoid.

2 - I just said Bandit (and Mia before him) sometimes WANTS contact. I'd hardly say that if I believed all contact involved intimidation and pain. Indeed, I wouldn't be a fan of curb bits if I thought bits worked via pain and intimidation.

As a rule, I prefer to avoid the bit. Why? Easier on the horse's mouth. Not saying contact HARMS the mouth, but no contact cannot dull the mouth either. By limiting my contact, I think it becomes more effective when I do use it.

And I also appreciate the idea of hand without legs, and legs without hand, and not using them both at once. The guy who first told me that was a cowboy. I just find it interesting that Baucher came to the same conclusion in France, after first becoming famous for deliberately using both at the same time. In fact, when he first proposed "Hand without legs, legs without hand": 

“_As he heard it, Major Gerhardt, an adept of the ‘first manner’ exclaimed, ‘Then Baucher is no longer Baucher!’ Quite the contrary, Baucher was becoming Baucher._"

3 - I have no idea if the universe is a cycle of energy, but the energy of the horse's rear legs does not bounce off the bit, flow thru the rider, and return to the horse's hind legs. A horse is not a perpetual motion machine, and one does not create a more vertical movement without USING energy.

In refuting the circle of energy argument, Racinet starts by quoting my favorite author on riding - Littauer. Pity to see Littauer make a fool of himself, but Racinet was right on that one. 

I just thought it was interesting Baucher came to teach what a cowboy told me. Convergent evolution.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

bsms said:


> "_The first of these principles requires the systematic disengagement of the aids as soon as they have been obeyed. The aids should start, restore, and transform; they should never MAINTAIN any given situation._


_

Love this quote - interesting to see it put like this. I heard it first in the form of, "Don't nag the horse, let him commit to the mistake, then correct him." or "Horses learn from the release of pressure." In fact, the importance of "timely release" is the one recurring theme I see whenever I read or watch horsey related material._


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

No contact can also mean a non educated mouth.

The circle of energy is not reliant on the bit. A horse can produce that circle on energy out in the field all by himself. The bit is not the conduit for the energy, but helps manage the energy.

It is like sitting on a hill at a red light while driving a car with a manual transmission. You don’t need the break to keep the car from rolling back wards. You can control that energy by the give and take of the clutch. But you can only do that if you have a feel for the clutch.

The bit is the same. In the hands of someone with a feel, they can give and take and control the energy without stalling the horse out.

I read somewhere about the God’s head and that we are nothing but energy and through our death, we give life to others.

I guess even the Big Bang Theory was essentially nothing but energy.


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

@sarahfromsc has a very good and true point.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Yeah. I agree. the bit is , in the best of circumstances, used only to invite the horse to perform movements that it is capable of in all freedom on its own, in the field.

it is , of course, harder for the horse to do this sort of 'balancing' while carrying some 150 to 200 lbs on it's back. it must LEARN how to adapt to that weight while still offering 'lightness'. Hard work, and very hard to do without the help of a bit.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Yes, no contact CAN mean an uneducated mouth. Or a horse not ridden. But that has nothing to do with anything I've written or quoted.

"_A horse can produce that circle on energy out in the field all by himself....You can control that energy by the give and take of the clutch.... In the hands of someone with a feel, they can give and take and control the energy without stalling the horse out._" - @*sarahfromsc* 

No, a horse out in the field cannot create a "circle of energy". The energy never returns to the hind legs. It is USED. If it is not used, then the horse cannot move. Movement takes energy.

A car on a hill will roll backwards. If you massage the clutch, you will use energy to prevent the car from rolling downhill. USE the energy. But when I drive a manual, I don't use the accelerator and brake at the same time and tell myself the brakes are recycling the energy, making the car more powerful.

As Baucher taught: "_If one succeeds in keeping a horse in proper balance through a combination of aids (the aids acting simultaneously), it means that *perhaps the legs have had to correct the errors or excesses of the hand, and vice versa*. These errors have been unaccounted for; the result is safe, *but the manner was coarse*._" One can do it, and it is like using the energy and wearing the clutch to keep the car from rolling backwards - instead of just using the brake! But a car, at least, has no feelings. It cannot become confused, and if someone wants to wear out the clutch on their car to prove how sensitive they are - it is their repair bill!

"This elevation against gravity, without getting tight in the process, *requires a great deal of basic tension* (and requires the horse to be closed in between the driving reins and restraining aids)."

Folks can ride like that. IF they want a horse with "a great deal of basic tension". Or:

"_If the hand or the legs act alone, they will have to reach their OPTIMAL THRESHOLD OF EFFICIENCY. *The rider will become efficient and SUBTLE; the horse will become attentive and CALM*.

But the horse will become not only calm but also HIGHLY SENSITIVE TO THE LEGS, since hand and legs will no longer ERASE EACH OTHER'S CONDITIONING...

...And so a new style of riding will become possible: riding in the release of hand and legs, that is, in the "release of aids", *the horse being left in "liberty on parole"* and the aids wielded ONLY FOR TRANSITIONS...When there is no need for a modification of the speed, movement, gait, or direction of the horse, the aids REMAIN SILENT._" 

I know which one appeals to me. Perhaps that isn't important since Bandit & I will never "do" dressage. But at least one school of dressage teaches principles that resonate with what I was told when visiting ranches in the early 80s.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> ...it must LEARN how to adapt to that weight while still offering 'lightness'. Hard work, and very hard to do without the help of a bit.


Nothing I've written, and certainly nothing Racinet or Baucher taught, says riding should all be done bitless. It boils down to using the brake and accelerator at the same time to round up the car and contain the car's energy, or using them alternately as needed.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

huh?

that's my first impression.


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

@bsms, there is a huge chasm between classical and modern dressage, in that I will agree with you. But you have to remember that baucher rode IBERIANS AND ANDALUSIANS, NOT OLDENBURGS AND HANOVERIANS. There is a HUGE difference in the needs of training of both these types of horses.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

Where does the energy start and where does it go in any animal? When it is ‘used’ as you stated, where does it go. Energy is not rejuvenated? How does the energy get to a horses hind legs? And where does it go? 

Why can’t a horse create a circle of energy out in the field?

Energy is always present or everything would be dead. 

“But when I drive a manual, I don't use the accelerator and brake at the same time and tell myself the brakes are recycling the energy, making the car more powerful.”

Did I imply the statement above? If I did I did not express my idea clearly enough. I thought I said that I could control the cars energy by having a feel for the clutch. I never said I was recycling energy through braking. I never mentioned brakes in fact. 

“...And so a new style of riding will become possible: riding in the release of hand and legs, that is, in the "release of aids", the horse being left in "liberty on parole" and the aids wielded ONLY FOR TRANSITIONS...When there is no need for a modification of the speed, movement, gait, or direction of the horse, the aids REMAIN SILENT." “

I don’t think the above statement is anything earth shatteringly new. When I am on my horse and we are long trotting for several miles my aids are silent. We are on auto cruise. I have no need to cue him for anything. Now, if he spooks or something the aids will be used. 

So the horse is on parole? What the hell does liberty on parole mean? The horse misbehaves and he is thrown in the slammer? That doesn’t sound enticing.......


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

@*sarahfromsc* , I see that you may not, but I do understand what BSMS is trying to say. It makes sense to me. He is coming from a much more classical approach. BSMS, you should study Dr. klimke, it may make more sense to you when talking about german dressage.

Look at this website: ::: Sustainable Dressage - - Welcome to my Site about Sustainable Dressage! :::. That may help, as it is classical based but talks a lot about german concepts.

I don't disagree with you one bit, @*bsms* , but it is apples and oranges. neither is right and neither is wrong. it is simply two totally different styles that are nowadays uncomparable. you've chosen to follow the classical masters, but in todays competitive ring it is not the classical master's philosophies who have won out, because the horses demanded in the show ring are not the horses of spanish and french bloodlines who are hotter, more forward, and more sensitive. The horses are what we call affectionately "dumbloods" and it is exactly what the name implies. They need a big BOOT in the croup to do anything as excellent as the hotbloods did, BUT they can hold up under INTENSE PHYSICAL STRAIN for a longer duration.

BSMS you are not a stupid man. What you claim conflicts so much with modern dressage that it makes a lot of riders uneasy. But keep studying the classical principles. I do urge you to at least try and understand the other side, even if you may not agree with it, so you can know exactly what you are debating against.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

I do ride dressage on the Arab. And once I straighten out the bad training of my new gaited horse, I may try gaited dressage.....whatever the hell that is, I also long distance ride (rehabbing his arthritic knee so that may be out now) with the Arab, and we have done a wee bit of cow sorting. bsms doesn’t ride dressage and never has.

Basically my stance is good basic training, which to ME, and others may (and have the right to) disagree with me, includes teaching a horse the aids and using them when needed for what you are doing with your horse. Teaching the horse to be soft, to accept the bit, and to take direction as given to the horse by the rider.

I also believe there is a circle of energy within all creatures, because I feel we are nothing but energy with a shell/body. I also believe a horse can round, drive from behind, lift without it being torture to the horse with good proper training and conditioning.

Some do not.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

sarahfromsc said:


> Where does the energy start and where does it go in any animal? When it is ‘used’ as you stated, where does it go. Energy is not rejuvenated? How does the energy get to a horses hind legs? And where does it go? ....What the hell does liberty on parole mean?....


1 - The energy starts in the muscles. It is then USED to create motion. It is used lifting the withers for collection, or for speed in extension. Chemical energy becomes kinetic energy.

How does it get to the horse's hind legs? It is created there. "Muscles use the stored chemical energy of food we eat and convert that to heat and energy of motion (kinetic energy)."

2 - "_Dressage is a dialogue between two participants that need to understand each other to be able to practice and improve, to work together in harmony....This information can only be obtained if the horse is free to express it, *by riding the horse "At Liberty on Parole"*. By riding the horse in an outline where he must be willing to comply instead of trapped in an outline where he has no choice but to surrender to demands._"

::: Sustainable Dressage - Rollkur - How And Why Not? - What? How? :::

I thought it was interesting that the French school of dressage had so much resemblance to traditional western riding. The converging evolution of ideas, including highly trained riders in France and ranch cowboys out west using similar approaches, even with a different desired outcome. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that the US Cavalry used the 1912 edition of the French manual of equitation until their graduates of Samur returned and wrote a new manual in the 1930s. Maybe the ex-cavalry passed some of it on, or maybe it was independent.

Kind of wish I had kept my enjoyment to myself, though. Just not worth it. :frown_color:


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I think the words, "a circle of energy" and . . how the energy is described as being recycled from back to front, to back are mostly metaphorical. If you want to aplly engineering formulae to that, it won't work out like that. 

Same as saying the back 'lifts", or bends. ok. not much. but, the FEELING is what makes people use these wordings. It is more about poetry.

It DOES feel as if you are disallowing energy from escaping out the front. it DOES feel as if the back lifts, or bend upward. If you have not felt it, you will of course think that descriptions are inaccurate, or pure horse pucky.
But, a lot of people DO feel this. is it that we have all drunk the koolaid?


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

At one point I also would ride a horse into a "bit barrier" as @Smilie describes, where you don't stop pushing the horse with your legs until the horse flexes away from the bit pressure. 

To me it seems unnecessary to use that method. It is a little slower but less distressing to many horses to instead just teach the horse to respond to bit cues by using a cue/release method. For example, rather than going all CA on a horse, with massive flexing side to side, you can just reward a little bit of give when you use a right rein cue, and then keep improving on it over time. I guess I expect a horse starting out to be clueless and stiff, and don't expect them to have the physical or mental capability to get soft or light all at once. 

Talking about using cues in isolation: 
I understand what Baucher is talking about when he says that if you are balancing horses with what I've heard termed the "corridor of aids" perhaps one aid is correcting another's mistake. Which is why I attempted (probably poorly) to clarify what "inside leg to outside rein" means to my riding earlier. 

When I was taught to use inside leg to outside rein, it was this very coarse and difficult type of system, which required lots of thought. "Now you're bulging through the shoulder." "You need to bend your horse around your inside leg." "You're losing her again, don't let her run out. Hold that shoulder steady with the outside rein." 
We were always pushing the horse forward, trying to keep momentum, fixing different body parts with leg cues and rein cues.

It seems ridiculous to use cues so often as part of riding. Many dressage riders have the horses requiring a nudge with the heel for every step. Having ridden some very dull horses, I'd still think you could work on the diet or fitness or spice things up somehow so the horse was more forward than that.

Yet I don't believe I ever ride neutral on a horse per se. Every moment I am using inside and outside aids. Our weight is an aid, so unless we get off the horse, we are using our aids. I've learned to keep my weight down through my legs, so they are always in contact with the horse.

But aids are not about a system of pushing and pulling and shaping. We can use the aids mainly by staying with the horse with our own bodies. What we do naturally if we are moving with the horse becomes the cue as the horse becomes trained. Then it can become very light, with the horse not needing big cues but learning to read our intentions from the rider's body.

What my body is doing here is showing the inside leg and outside leg (exaggerated). This is what the horse feels from our seat and legs if we turn, or when they turn their body. Soon the horse will understand that when turn our bodies, that difference in weight and leg pressure (although we are not pushing or squeezing) means we will be going around a turn, and what size that turn will be. They also can follow the seat when we want them to move laterally.








This is what the outside of "inside leg outside rein" looks like, and it doesn't mean I am pushing the horse out with the inside leg or holding the horse onto the circle with the outside rein. It means that hopefully the horse is learning to follow my seat and subtle leg shifts with a little help from the reins to learn faster. 
Alternatively, you can teach the horse to just follow your seat and legs on a loose rein, but that is more subtle and takes a lot longer.








This is the inside of "inside leg outside rein" while the inside rein is cueing for the turn. Not steady, but pull and release.
Ideally, my upper arms would be back a little farther next to my torso, and my inside shoulder would not drop at all. I'm not squeezing or pushing or doing anything with my legs except changing the weight as my body changes with the turn.








This is not cueing, but connected.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Interesting read....

Four years it has taken me, four years to undo many many years of misunderstanding contact, and then 2 years of being taught it wrong. Twinkling hands, give and take, all sorts of things, all forms of sawing, and all wrong.

Just in the last few months the blessed light has come on and I finally, FINALLY, get it. My current trainer has tried to explain pushing hands, giving hands, but only now have I got to the point where I can get that. Now to be fair not only have we been retraining me, but also Fergie, she was a hunter jumper, who had been a pasture puff for two years. It has taken that long to retain her as well, the eternal girrafe to headless monster is now able to carry herself with the lightest of touch...and it’s a wonderful feeling, generated by lots of production of energy, from the engine, softly contained in the hand.

It’s kind of funny how different it feels when you actually ‘get it’ than you thought it would feel, or I guess how it looks. 

Funny that all the hunters and jumpers in the barn are required to keep at least one Dressage lesson every couple of weeks, alongside their jump lessons, if they want to be in the travelling show team, and you can see the difference in the ring, and there must be a reason why our team swept the board at the Regional Championships, good foundations that give soft, responsive horses.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

Oh @bsms, I was just poking you a wee bit.....lololol......the football game was boring last night. I wanted to read what you wrote about energy as if I was a third grader. It amused me.

We will never agree on much, but that is what makes life interesting. However, at least I have tried many of the things you tend to disagree with. And I have actually felt some of the things you say can not physically happen. Again, makes life interesting.


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

But I actually DO UNDERSTAND (not sayng that no one else does) what BSMS is saying because I was taught classical dressage, and now I have moved to the german/modern. It is very, very, very important to *recognize* that these two schools came out of two different types of horses. I think that is what everyone forgets. My mare is NOT a warmblood. She is fairly cool-blooded but she is a TB and very, very sensitive. A lot of WB's are NOT sensitive and take a LOT of leg to go, hence why impulsion comes BEFORE lightness in modern dressage, and hence why lightness and forward (NOT NECCESARULY IMPULSION) comes BEFORE contact in classical dressage. The french masters wanted a horse who was light light light in front, the german masters wanted a horse who was the equivelant of a ferrari and would PUSH into their hands because warmbloods are so very strong, and they believed the horse needed a lot of hand holding, unlike the french and iberian types.

That is the key to all this: the different style of horse. Dressage helps EVERY horse, but not every horse can be competitive *anymore *because the WARMBLOODS win because the GERMAN style won out.

Those of you who disapprove of modern dressage are not wrong, nor should you feel like you need to defend yourself. BSMS, gottatrot, tinyliny - just about everyone who rides practices dressage in one form or another. Dressage means "training," and it is unfortunate that now people believe the horse needs a "specific training" to be considered worthy of being "trained in dressage." 
@*gottatrot* , unfortunately we are not there with lightness yet. Like i previously mentioned, in this style of dressage lightness comes at THE VERY END. I love laura graves and she is ALL about lightness. I'd love to know if she sharpened up Diddy towards the end of his third level (moder) or if she required him to be light from the beginning (classical). Right now, my trainer wants lightness to come later (modern), whereas my french teacher wanted my horse to be light from a walk, just a little touch with my leg should make her go into a trot (classical).

I believe classical is KINDER to the horse in a lot of ways, and the reason my trainer is not teaching us this is because I have expressed the desire to compete, and her, i and the trees in the arena known darn well classical won't win us anything. That is the connundrum. But Tyra is not responding well to the modern methods. So here I am, wondering what I am to do? 

I have moved from my old barn TO my trainer's barn and I am not leaving her. At the same time, I need to find a balance between the more forceful german approach and the more gentle classical approach. That is why I have chosen to wear spurs and bring a whip, in hopes of helping Tyra lighten up so that in my lessons I don't need to use the force that is seemingly required.

Tyra has also shown she is not a candidate to neccesarily be trusted at the moment, so my trainer went with this style because when Tyra's brain leave us, IT LEAVES US. Classical horses are given more freedom because the bond between human and horse is at it's maximum. Our bond is still building. Right now my trainer would prefer I have a little more forceful control to keep her brain where it is, and once she's working with us we begin to ask for lighter and lighter. But this mare is borderline dangerous to ride (i say that liberally), and so LDR and other "training tools" are what we must use to keep Tyra with us so that she doesn't buck to the moon again. No one here has to agree. But I am just voicing what my trainer's is wanting to do.

Apples and oranges.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

thecolorcoal said:


> I think that is what everyone forgets. My mare is NOT a warmblood. She is fairly cool-blooded but she is a TB and very, very sensitive.
> 
> That is the key to all this: the different style of horse. Dressage helps EVERY horse, but not every horse can be competitive *anymore *because the WARMBLOODS win because the GERMAN style won out.


But do you think every type of dressage would help every horse? Or every part of dressage used in modern training? Is it necessary to accept everything about dressage if you train dressage?
My friend's OTTB Nala was supposed to be a dressage horse (came from CA) but "failed" the training and her owner bought her as a stiff, uneven horse that bucked off riders. You may have seen how beautiful she moves nowadays.









In the beginning when my friend got Nala, she didn't do well in an arena. Now they go over to arenas on rainy days, and Nala goes fine. She could show now if she wanted, but she had to learn to use her body and mind, and get strong before she could handle that type of riding.
My experience is that I haven't seen people use force with most TBs and then achieve lightness in the end. What I've seen to follow force is resistance.


thecolorcoal said:


> That is why I have chosen to wear spurs and bring a whip, in hopes of helping Tyra lighten up so that in my lessons I don't need to use the force that is seemingly required.
> 
> Tyra has also shown she is not a candidate to necesarily be trusted at the moment, so my trainer went with this style because when Tyra's brain leave us, IT LEAVES US. Classical horses are given more freedom because the bond between human and horse is at it's maximum. Our bond is still building. Right now my trainer would prefer I have a little more forceful control to keep her brain where it is, and once she's working with us we begin to ask for lighter and lighter.


It's not about freedom, in my opinion, but about trying to force the horse to be a certain way versus having them find the way through the route of least resistance. With many horses, especially hotbloods, the force creates more resistance. If I want a horse to think and work with me, I don't give them freedom to do whatever they want, but I try to show them what the easy way is versus the hard way. If the hard way is the way you want them to go, why would they choose it? Horses prefer the route of least resistance. 

Horses that buck and resist are looking for an easier way. The people who returned Rascal did not know how to help him find the easy route, so he learned to back, buck, hop. That's a hard route for a horse, but the only way he knew. 

The dilemma is that you say you are trying to use the type of training designed for Warmbloods. My thought is that using this type of training on your TB will not get the results you are looking for (winning at shows), but it's not just the type of training that is required to win but also the type of horse. 

A horse born with your horse's natural action will never develop the dressage movements we see in the upper levels. Those are necessary to be competitive. Warmbloods are bred for those movements and they are only built upon slightly for the show ring. You will be lucky to produce movement close to what the horse shows on their own in the field, but you'll never get better than that under saddle. So if your goal is to compete and win, you don't have the right horse. 





So if you're not trying for top levels, then why is it so important to use this route to train the horse?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

BSMS
'"_The first of these principles requires the systematic disengagement of the aids as soon as they have been obeyed. The aids should start, restore, and transform; they should never MAINTAIN any given situation.'
Alrighty then, and exactly as to what I am saying,western.When that horse is moving correctly, in frame (we are now talking of moving in frame, collected and not trail riding, okay), you release all bit contact, and legs become neutral, as a reward.
Horsesthat seek bit contact, have always been ridden with bit contact, never learned true self carriage, which means they do NOT need to be micro managed

Again, not dissing disciplines where contact is always used to some degree, with the horse learning to need that contact to stay correct, but western, where that horse is eventually expected to keep topline, collection, rate speed, off of seat and legs alone, including all gaits, maneuvers and transititions
Yes, when ahorse resists in the face and poll, and I was not talking of ahorse moving along correctly, English,balanced between legs and reins, BUT ONE THAT IS NOT TRACKING UP< BEING STIFF IN the face and poll,ie RESISTANT, then yes, you hold a bit barrier, while driving that horse up with your legs,until he softens in the face and poll and then you reward (ie, loose rein, and neutral legs) giving the horse a chance to stay correct on his own. A horse learns by pressure and release, but most of all, by release of that pressure, when he is moving correctly
nOw, I am quite sure you don't show Bandit, so moving collected an din frame is never part of your program-correct?
It does not need to be,trail riding, but allow me the fact that I do know, how to train a western hrose, to move collected, in frame and on a loose rein. That same horse, because of his basic training, can then easily be shown English, just adding light bit contact.
THere is also a big difference on how you train, fix an issue, and as to how you ride the finished product. If your horse still needs to be driven up to a bit barrier, , does not keep that frame on a loose rein, he is not ready to show. Apples and Oranges.
Counter canter is another thing you use in training, but that doe snot mean there are any patterns where you are asked to counter canter. It is a strength building exercise, and aLso obedience to legs
You also ride direct and in direct arch circles, to work on shoulder control, but that doe snot mean you ride along and turn in an indirect arch

I mean, how many times have I posted about reward, so releasing bit contact, western, esp when the hrose is going correctly, is a given. You are preaching to the choir
English, you at least lighten that bit contact when the hrose is moving correctly, and also lighten all leg aids REWARD, that is how horses learn and are given a reason to be light_


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

TBs are classified as hot bloods, along with Arabians and not cool bloods!
The term 'warmblood (small w) is what most riding horses fall under
Cold bloods are drafts and some ponies
Warmblood, with a capitol W, is applied to horses that were specifically bred for the sport horse disciplines , over many generations, having some draft back in the beginnings, but not in the immediate pedigree, regardless that many people call a draft and hot blood cross, or even one with a stock horse a Warmblood!
As one presentor stated at one of our horse conferences, that stock horse cross with a draft is actually a Lukeblood, LOL!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I agree with Trottin, and the fact if you wish to achieve any level in a specific discipline, you have to have a horse bred for that discipline
There are Appaloosas that have gone Grande Prix and prix St George (sorry if my terms are not quite right), but they are from Appaloosa bloodlines with a lot of foundation in them. In other words, they have some of the same origins as today's Warmbloods
TBs are a close registry, thus more of a fixed type. They are bred to run, and run fast. Yes, some do very well, moved on to other jobs, but that does not change as to what they were selectively bred to do
YOur horse is a nice horse, enjoy her, but you have to realize that she has been a square peg, esp before you got her, trying to be fit into a round hole. 

I'm going by the fact that you said her former owner tried to make her into a barrel horse and a western pl horse
Now, many barrel horses are appendix bred, but also have that hind end power and quickness from a stock horse side. She was no more suited to be a western pl horse then a draft horse! Now, you are trying to make her into a dressage horse. 
She might simply not have the conformation to ever move as desired.
Why not just jump her, or do cross country?


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

I don't doubt Nala flunked out of dressage. We have no goals of winning anything more than MAYBE third level? If we get there? My trainer was to try for as far as we can go. She is completely OK with me having different dressage instructors, as well, as her expertise lies in eventing and eventing is only part of dressage.

Correct me if I'm wrong or speaking out of turn, but I think, perhaps, for you and bsms, dressage has become an "insult" to use to describe your riding? I don't think that's true at all. Dressage should just be PART of the package. ANY horse can benefit from a little dressage, whether that be leg yields, walk to halt on light contact, teaching them to use their body more effectively on the trail, or, in my case, to add to the flatwork in between the jumps. Dressage is not a be-all-end-all for us, it isn't our main sport, it is just something fun we do. I don't need to win to compete, but I'd like to hear what a judge has to say about how Tyra is coming along, especially when she is NOT naturally gifted in this sport. We can only develop her so far. Past a certain level and she will not win, but that doesn't mean we stop dressage. We can still practice upper-level movements, even if they would get us 4's in the ring, just as gymnastic and strength building exercises. I love this horse and I* didn't even care about showing* her before I bought her, but now that she's proving herself quite a specimen I'm happy to see what she can be.

@gottatrot, because in all fairness this is the only style of dressage my trainer can teach. MOST IF NOT ALL competitive riders (of which she is) turn their nose up at classical dressage. However my trainer Meghan used a combination of both and while she is not world ranked she is nationally and state-wide ranked in the national FEI level. She is finding, with her young horse, that she cannot push him around nearly as much as her grand prix fei horse. Her young horse is a baroque cross, and is very, VERY, VERY, VERY, VERY HOT. Like, super hot and super SPOOKY and blows up FIRST. There is no escalation process, so the german methods are not working with him. She is also trained once removed by Charlotte Dujardan, and she uses a french classical master at the moment to help her understand why her horse reacts the way he does (tyra's choice is bucking, her horse's choice is bolting). 

I have access to classical trainers, don't get me wrong, but my trainer is not classical. She is Modern/Eventing and is honestly closer to my trainer Jessie than my trainer Meghan or Pierre (complete classical). So to balance this, I educate MYSELF in classical riding. I take what she teaches us in lessons and i BUILD us up to that point with classical principles. 

That is just what I did today. I told everyone I had to HOOOOOOOLD the front end to get Tyra to "long and low," right? Well, today, armed with this forum's knowledge and a little light reading, I put my spurs a little higher and grabbed my crop, dropped my stirrups down and inch and set in my head that I would NOT FORCE ANYTHING on this horse. I wanted to see what we could develop when I wasn't looking.

So we started out with a 10 minute, each direction slack rein warm up. I didn't do anything but focus on myself. Making sure my legs were loose, my hips were loose, that I was straight in the saddle, that my eyes were up, and that my inner energy was calm. I kept telling myself, "we're not doing anything today, we're just riding, no expectations. It's all whatever."

I took a few inches of rein and worked on a walk with a touch of contact. At first, Tyra pulled against me and started flipping her head, but when she realized there was nothing to pull on like the past she stopped and put her head a little lower. No impulsion yet. Not expecting it.

From this drapey rein I picked up a trot on a circle. Head came up per usual. DID NOT SHORTEN MY REIN, half halfed softly and put my CALF on, (not heel). Head didn't want to come down. Kept softly asking and pushed with legs, head came down a little bit. Head up, pushed with legs, soft working the bit, head came down. This lasted for maybe 10 more corrections. The all of a sudden I felt her relax, sigh a few times, snort and blow and she SURGED forward, on a long rein, with her nose to the ground, and her hind end completely activated. Steps were not faster but bigger, and I felt such lightness and power! Her back came up to the saddle and we were trotting around the arena like we were Charlotte and Valegro. I haven't experienced that feeling since my classical lessons with Meghan. It was what connection is all about.

I found these things out during this exercise:
1) My balance. I had to focus on not leaning one way or another. If my weigh shifted just a bit her head came up, but if I kept myself centered I could keep her long and low for longer periods of time.
2) My inner energy. When I got excited Tyra's head popped up as if to say "Oh we having a party?" So I had to keep making sure i "didn't care."
3) Legs. I had to concentrate on making them loose and relaxed, lest I accidentally touch her with my spur. 

I only asked for a 10 minute ride. We got relaxation both directions, and 10 full seconds of long and low without the head coming up. I was ecstatic. I hope to show my trainer Friday.


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

@Smilie, I know she's a hot blood HAHA but she is not a HOT horse, she is a cool horse, meaning she isn't as reactive and spicy as a traditional TB. She's more mellow and chill.

I have no goals with those horse. This isn't about me wanting to compete GP or FEI, this is about me and Tyra going as far as TYRA can go. My competition goals are to get certain scores, but not necessarily a certain level. I didn't buy this horse to show, i SHOW because of the horse 

xc could affect her soundness. Eventing also requires dressage. And her main discipline IS jumping, it is called "hunters" or equitation.

This is what i think tyra is physically and mentally made to do. Another sport dominated by WB's but for different reasons: temperament. Of which she has. She has the movement of a horse like this. To me it is a waste to put her in any other discipline when this movement is BRED IN to these horses and can cost over 30,000 dollars!


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

Hunters also does not require her to jump very high for her to be competitive, the way jumpers and xc does. I worry about the speed required for showjumping - vet did warn me about speed with this horse and her fetlock.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

thecolorcoal said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong or speaking out of turn, but I think, perhaps, for you and bsms, dressage has become an "insult" to use to describe your riding? I don't think that's true at all. Dressage should just be PART of the package. ANY horse can benefit from a little dressage, whether that be leg yields, walk to halt on light contact, teaching them to use their body more effectively on the trail, or, in my case, to add to the flatwork in between the jumps.


For me it's not an insult to say I ride dressage. Yet back when I was mostly riding dressage, I remember having a sense of pride when I told people about my discipline. Now I still think there are many good parts to dressage, but it was disillusioning for me to discover that it wasn't always going to result in helping horses move better and reach their full potential. I've never been an "all or nothing" type. I don't believe I have to embrace everything about dressage and believe it is all good, and instead I believe I can choose any part I think is helpful and discard any part I think is detrimental. 

I'm not sure why it is seen as negative to question the whys and hows of _any_ discipline. Many other disciplines acknowledge that the training is basically asking the horse to give and work for the rider, even doing unnatural things while trying to minimize the harm caused. 
Dressage was something I was drawn to because many claimed it actually was in the horse's best interest. It was supposed to help the horse physically and mentally, and people I knew saw it as a lofty ideal. What I found was that dressage is just another discipline. Some of the training has good parts, just as training for other disciplines can teach a horse to use their bodies and listen to a rider. But competing in dressage has just as many gadgets and inhumane shortcuts as do many other very competitive disciplines. 

For some reason, any time I have said that I don't believe that working a horse into constant bit contact is necessary or helpful, people see that as being negative about dressage. I guess I see dressage training as a collection of methods that includes good ones and bad ones. "Any horse can benefit from a little dressage" is something I agree with if you are talking about the good parts of training. The parts you describe above are good parts. Other parts you describe your trainer using are what I consider bad parts. There are good parts of dressage in the German tradition, not just the French/classical tradition. 

I'm not saying you should not use your trainer. I'm saying that you should use your critical judgment and assess any training you do with your horse to see if it is helpful or detrimental, and if it is right for your horse as an individual. If it gets to the point where you are choosing a trainer over what is best for your horse, I hope you will choose your horse. It sounds like your goal is doing with your horse what is best for her, and to me that is a good goal. Your last riding sessions sounds like it was productive.


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

@gottatrot, I have never used draw reins, a chambon, or any other "gadgets." Nowadays, these gadgets are not well received in dressage and shortcuts are for riders who cannot get there naturally. I think you would be hard pressed to find any GOOD trainers advocating for training contraptions and gadgets, as well as questionable training methods. Jessie believes in training contraptions/short cuts and questionable training styles. I do not consider her a GOOD dressage trainer. My trainer does not believe in gadgets, but there are parts of her training that I do not agree with either although she is not nearly as gun-ho about winning as Jessie was. To Jessie, winning is all that mattered. EVENTUALLY the horse would come soft from the harsh training but that was just in theory. All of her horses have hollow backs, travel strung out behind, do not give, are heavy on the hands, but all of her students are timid riders who want full control instead of harmony.

The draw reins/gadgets people are the exception, not the rule.

I don't know how many trainers you've seen or ridden with but I don't think you picked the good ones. It is the same for me, as I do not like saddleseat/TWH shows because I have heard such horrible things about what they do to the horses, but I have never seen either discipline nor ridden it, and those who have say it is phenomenal and all the "cruel training" that I perceive is just propaganda against the discipline, and it "all has a purpose." I don't think these saddleseat riders are making excuses, because they do love their horses. So it must mean that I am seeing something that they are not.

Same with western pleasure and peanut rollers. Same with barrel racing and starfishing. But I will not condone drugging in MY discipline, and I know it goes on and it is because the riders do not want to, nor cannot, handle their horses during show day. It seems other disciplines like to defend their "unorthodox/illegal" methods, but mine just does it for very ignorant and selfish reasons.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

thecolorcoal said:


> @gottatrot, I have never used draw reins, a chambon, or any other "gadgets." Nowadays, these gadgets are not well received in dressage and shortcuts are for riders who cannot get there naturally. I think you would be hard pressed to find any GOOD trainers advocating for training contraptions and gadgets, as well as questionable training methods.


While the trainers I used did not use gadgets or force, they also would never have brought me to a competitive level with my horse. 

When I went and watched shows where the riders had achieved upper levels, I saw force and gadgets. Going to the WEG in 2010 was a big part of my disillusionment with dressage, when I watched the riders warming up. That was when I understood that our long, slow natural route was never going to get us places. I'm not sure we were at the "official" warm up ring, because we had trouble finding food and were weaving our way behind some buildings when we came across a nice, big ring. I saw some riders warming up, and stopped to watch for awhile. What I saw was some pretty harsh stuff, jerking the horses around, driving the horse forward with spurs while holding the neck cranked in, and they were all basically working on getting an exaggeratedly rounded up profile.
I even saw a groom smoothing off spur marks on a horse while shining up the rider's boots.

When I saw what they were doing, I realized this was a "trick," no different from what I'd seen at warmups at Arab shows. It's common at Arab shows to see riders practicing making the horses super rounded over just before the class, then they go in and let the horse halfway out - to the horse it feels better than being cranked in so hard, so maintains that posture even though normally it would not maintain that position.

So I knew that what I'd read was wrong. The horses did not naturally achieve that position just by working "through" and "over the back." They achieved that position because riders cranked their necks into that position, and also "pumped up" those muscles just before the show like a body builder would. I went home and thought long and hard about where I stood with all of that. Since then it's been a journey figuring out what parts of dressage I agree with and which I don't.


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

gottatrot said:


> When I saw what they were doing, I realized this was a "trick," no different from what I'd seen at warmups at Arab shows. It's common at Arab shows to see riders practicing making the horses super rounded over just before the class, then they go in and let the horse halfway out - to the horse it feels better than being cranked in so hard, so maintains that posture even though normally it would not maintain that position.


That's called rollkur. Jumper riders do it too. I've even seen pictures of western reiners use it in warm ups. It is well-known to be one of the worst short cuts out there and yes, unfortunately the FEI has not caught up like it should but dressage riders everywhere are outraged at its use, and it's making its way into the realm of illegalities as it draws more negative attention.

Like the picture of Totilas, Rollkur can get you the crazy front legs that were worshipped at a time. Not every upper level dressage rider uses rollkur, and you usually can pick out the ones who do because their horses do not move correctly behind. It is very easy to tell. But what I learned is dressage judging is on a scale as much as it is subjective. You can lose points for a hollow horse and still win the class.



gottatrot said:


> So I knew that what I'd read was wrong. The horses did not naturally achieve that position just by working "through" and "over the back." They achieved that position because riders cranked their necks into that position, and also "pumped up" those muscles just before the show like a body builder would. I went home and thought long and hard about where I stood with all of that. Since then it's been a journey figuring out what parts of dressage I agree with and which I don't.


What you read was not wrong, what you _saw_ was wrong. it is not the correct way of going and the horse will suffer for it, the horse can and will naturally achieve that head position _if the proper steps are taken_. rollkur is not a proper step. rollkur is a short cut as much as using a double twisted wire is a short cut in hunters, and a three ring gag hackabit is a short cut for trail riders (i had some friends who owned twh's and this was their bit set up of choice, the horses were not well trained lets just say that).

Some riders simply do not care, they only care about winning. You see a lot of short cuts at the upper levels, but do not lump every dressage horse with a round neck into the assumed box that it's been rollkured. There is too much pressure at the upper levels to win, especially for the sponsors, hence why these training methods are allowed. the FEI has banned rollkur in the warm up arenas.

You can get what you get at the FEI levels naturally, but it takes years and years. By the time the horse is ready to compete it would be in its mid-teens with only a few years of useful life left. rollkur is also used to get young horses to that level extremely quickly. I don't think a single good, honest dressage rider agrees at all with rollkur. and if they do, they don't understand wholly what it is.

but the problem is the judges, the politics, and the fact that they can't ping people for what they do at home.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

thecolorcoal said:


> You can get what you get at the FEI levels naturally, but it takes years and years. By the time the horse is ready to compete it would be in its mid-teens with only a few years of useful life left. rollkur is also used to get young horses to that level extremely quickly. I don't think a single good, honest dressage rider agrees at all with rollkur. and if they do, they don't understand wholly what it is.


I always wanted to believe that. My instructors told me that. That's why I tried and tried to find examples of horses partway through this slower training, using the training ladder, to see how their bodies and movement changed over time. All I was able to find were horses that were either being ridden forcefully from a young age with natural dressage movement and build already in place, or I found horses that didn't change their way of going more than a tiny amount. This has led me to conclude that what is said and what actually happens are two different things. It has led me to a search for what actually helps horses way of going, and what actually does not.

I've concluded that if I want a horse that moves like a dressage horse, I will buy one that was born that way rather than trying to turn an Arab or TB into Valegro.

Not good video quality, but Valegro being ridden at age 5, an age where we are told horses are brought along slowly and their potential for movement is gradually being built upon. 






The flowing language and lofty principles I've read all about in dressage books are never illustrated working in real life. So I've started believing they are fairy tales.


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

gottatrot said:


> I've concluded that if I want a horse that moves like a dressage horse, I will buy one that was born that way rather than trying to turn an Arab or TB into Valegro.


This is right on the money and the reason why I have such beef with dressage nowadays. You can't be competitive without a valegro. Tyra can't hold a candle to those horses who are made to do this naturally... In a book I read they describe the kind of action these horses have as "circus tricks," almost like the action of a saddleseat horse. You can train a horse to get the correct gait for them as individuals but they will never get the correct gait for a judge . 100% agree, couldn't like that response more!!!

Check out "tug of war - modern vs. classical dressage" by Gerd Heuschmann. It's extremely insightful. "Ridden" by Ulrike Thiel. Both of these authors combat the modern dressage notion and the *******ization (eek is that a bad word?) that dressage has become.

It makes me so *angry* because no matter how hard we work we will probably never place and win. And Tyra is doing all she can. She would be exhibiting her heightened abilities and training, but still. Compared to a dutch warmblood we look like what we are: a thoroughbred and her rider fumbling around in the dressage court where we obviously don't belong. dressage is supposed to BE for the horse, but nowadays that's almost never the case...

Breaks my heart. I just want my horse to be the best she can be. I'll believe the fairy tale though because what else can I do? The reality is it's less than 1% chance we'll make it past first level. Almost impossible we'd ever make it to fei, barring physical issues, because tyra's not built with a huge hind end machine. she's designed to pull in the front, the way most race horses are designed.

it makes me sad, @gottatrot. Really sad, but I am glad you've come to my thread to discuss this because I see what you are saying now. Though I'm still not going to give up. I've just got to change the focus from winning to improving my horse.
@gottatrot, did you know valegro did not pass the stallion test for the KWPN so he was gelded, and he was only bought for 4,000 pounds? That's really, really cheap. Nobody believed in him, and look where he is now?


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

thecolorcoal said:


> Breaks my heart. I just want my horse to be the best she can be. I'll believe the fairy tale though because what else can I do? The reality is it's less than 1% chance we'll make it past first level. Almost impossible we'd ever make it to fei, barring physical issues, because tyra's not built with a huge hind end machine. she's designed to pull in the front, the way most race horses are designed.
> 
> did you know valegro did not pass the stallion test for the KWPN so he was gelded, and he was only bought for 4,000 pounds? That's really, really cheap. Nobody believed in him, and look where he is now?


I didn't know that about Valegro, wow.

I understand completely, because I had that dream too. I think some people thought I "gave up" because I couldn't figure out how to ride that way or communicate what I wanted with my horse, but honestly I'm so pathologically stubborn if I thought it was the right thing or had the possibility of working, I would still be out there trying. But once I reevaluated everything, I realized that I really just want the best for my horses, regardless of whether we are showing or placing or anything else. 

It doesn't have to be one or the other. If you aren't winning show classes it doesn't mean you have to just tool around and not be just as serious about horses and training. It doesn't mean you can't have goals. I will probably do some competing with my next horse, but what we do will depend on that horse's particular talents and also what I feel the horse can compete in while still enjoying life, the training and what I feel is ethical to ask the horse to do. Based on individual physical traits, talents and personality. To me that is more rewarding than deciding that I have a discipline that I do, and trying to get the horse to fit. I think I had things quite backwards for a few years. 
But if I really wanted to do a certain discipline, I would try to learn what I could with the horse that I had, and then try to make sure my next horse was an excellent fit for that discipline. 

Above all, I hope you try to have _fun_ with your horse. Life is too short to be entirely goal oriented rather than enjoyment oriented.


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

gottatrot said:


> But if I really wanted to do a certain discipline, I would try to learn what I could with the horse that I had, and then try to make sure my next horse was an excellent fit for that discipline.
> 
> Above all, I hope you try to have fun with your horse. Life is too short to be entirely goal oriented rather than enjoyment oriented.


Truer words were never spoken. Your reply made me tear up. I love your stories with Halla, Amore, and now Rascal and the other horses you work with. You are such a lovely person. I guess I still feel I have to prove a lot of people wrong with my horse. I know it sounds stupid and pointless, but I know Tyra is amazing and there are still so many people I know who have no faith in her. I feel, if we aren't winning that somehow their doubts are validated... I've never rallied so strongly for a horse. I just want to show everyone that I didn't make a beginner mistake in buying her (even though I kind of did...). I owe it to her to show her old owners and her track trainers what they missed out on, that I saw the diamond hidden in that pile of coal they threw out and disregarded.

It's a vendetta for me. I don't know if anyone here has had that experience, believing in something that no one else has, or a horse that no one else saw as anything salvageable. It's just something I need to do. Once I've proven Tyra's worth, then I have done what I set out to do. I hope this makes sense. Everyone tells me there's nothing I need to show anyone, but a part of me disagrees. One of the people I really want to dangle this in the face of is my first vet, who so offhandedly told me my horse was better off in a glue factory in not so many words....


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