# What in the name of all that is good is WRONG with this world?



## equiniphile

Ugh. *resisting the urge to write a long, detailed letter explaining where this person should go because it will not get me anywhere....* :?


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## Hidalgo13

Sad.  She's so young.


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## MacabreMikolaj

It took every urge I had not to blast him because he obviously deletes the comments from his main page on a regular basis and it rolls off like water on a ducks back.

I just felt physically ill thinking of how many of these poor babies every single year have to endure the same BS for the sake of money and trophies.


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## Citrus

ughhhhhhhhhhhhh


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## equiniphile

Love how the comments are disabled.


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## crimsonsky

the age thing aside - i don't understand what the point is of having a horse move like that. horses don't MOVE like that on their own. at least, i've never seen one of any breed do that without a rider. 

now on the age thing - i had someone tell me the other day that i should start backing my colt now because "well you're not that big and it'll be fine". um... he'll be 11mths old on monday. are you nutz? no way.


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## A knack for horses

You know, it really doesn't surprise me that that guy's riding posture sucked. 

I think what makes this video 100 times more horrific is the fact the horse is using an unnatural gait. 

IMO, I don't have a problem with people backing *coming 2 year olds*, but having a completely trained horse that is _just now_ turning 2 will NEVER be even remotely ok in my book.

I think everybody knows where that guy can go so I won't say it.


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## apachiedragon

That's horrible. Did anyone else notice him gouge her under the belly with those big spurs he was wearing right at the end in the slo-mo? That poor baby. Doing an artificial gait like that so young, she's bound to have all sorts of leg and joint, and probably back issues when she gets a bit older.


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## MHFoundation Quarters

How sad. That poor thing  That was almost painful to watch. I noticed the spurs too. Sad to think about what her future has to offer.


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## Countrylady1071

that poor thing  ugh I just can't believe people sometimes.. I have so many things I could say right now but I'll hold my tongue.


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## tinyliny

question: Is it ok for us to put videos of cruel or bad riding we find on the internet up on this forum? I just want to know.

Comment: I also noticed that the horse was straining fiercely against a tie down. Ridden this way, how long will that horse stay rideabley sound? 
This sort of riding is nearly unheard of out in the Seattle area. I have never seen it except on video. But I wonder . HOrses in the gaiting world, are they bred , used and discared pretty quick like? I don't know what it's like where this mare comes from. I would sincerely like to know what that is all about. Who buys theres horses? Do they only use them for shows? I mean, is there any normal, daily use way to use a horse like that?


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## lacyloo

> Is it ok for us to put videos of cruel or bad riding we find on the internet up on this forum? I just want to know.


99% sure its against the rules

But I _highly_ disagree with that policy. Say you take the video the OP posted. People will give their opinions and critique it, I find that educational. 

As far as I'm concerned, if it is posted on the internet- its fair game. If you do not wish for your photos or videos to be critique then don't post them online.


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## A knack for horses

YouTube is a video *sharing *site. If somebody wants to post a video the world can access, then they should realize people are going to judge. And posting a link to a Youtube video on this forum I think is fair. (I'm not sure on forum rules about it though)


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## jdw

I cant even watch it; we all KNOW what kind of future she will endure. (or not) I have said it beofre and will say it again, it (cruelty/inhumanity) will be tolerated as long as there is money that can be made from it in the horse world. Wish we could change that~PATHETIC.


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## MacabreMikolaj

I believe we had this discussion previously, and it's only the Critique section you can't post vids/pics that aren't you and ask for a critique. This is a discussion on a public video and I'm almost positive it's ok as virtually every fifth post on HF Videos is of a random YouTube video.

I understand completely if the mods would rather remove it, I just think we're all pretty universally in agreement that a fully trained 1.5 year old Walker with such extreme equipment on is a travesty of the horse world. 

Maybe if more people are aware of the suffering these poor animals endure, we can do more to stop this terrible practice. :-(


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## MacabreMikolaj

tinyliny said:


> question: Is it ok for us to put videos of cruel or bad riding we find on the internet up on this forum? I just want to know.
> 
> Comment: I also noticed that the horse was straining fiercely against a tie down. Ridden this way, how long will that horse stay rideabley sound?
> This sort of riding is nearly unheard of out in the Seattle area. I have never seen it except on video. But I wonder . HOrses in the gaiting world, are they bred , used and discared pretty quick like? I don't know what it's like where this mare comes from. I would sincerely like to know what that is all about. Who buys theres horses? Do they only use them for shows? I mean, is there any normal, daily use way to use a horse like that?


Basically yes. TWH retiree's or rescues are a lot like racehorse retiree's or rescues - you find them at auction because they've broken down and because they only know how to do ONE thing, nobody wants them. TWH are easy to rehab, but even worse off then Thoroughbreds - the injuries and body wear and tear they endure almost guarantees you will have soundness issues in every TWH that comes off the Big Lick circuit.

They are only used for shows and never know anything different - they are locked in stalls and go through agonizing pain for most (if not all) of their lives. I honestly don't know what becomes of them after retirement, I know the mares are kept and there are a LOT of rescues and rehabs - as for the other percentage, I'd also be interested to know how many retire with some relative degree of soundness and who buys a retired TWH. How many go to slaughter?

I do believe this type of extreme is localized almost exclusively in Tennessee. People have ostracized it virtually every where else, and opt for the much more natural flat shod TWH shows.


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## mls

MacabreMikolaj said:


> I believe we had this discussion previously, and it's only the Critique section you can't post vids/pics that aren't you and ask for a critique. This is a discussion on a public video and I'm almost positive it's ok as virtually every fifth post on HF Videos is of a random YouTube video.
> 
> I understand completely if the mods would rather remove it, I just think we're all pretty universally in agreement that a fully trained 1.5 year old Walker with such extreme equipment on is a travesty of the horse world.
> 
> Maybe if more people are aware of the suffering these poor animals endure, we can do more to stop this terrible practice. :-(


I don't believe the members here are supposed to pull random videos just to pick apart the people. Rather in poor taste.


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## MacabreMikolaj

So is riding a yearling in chains, stacks and tie downs.


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## Citrus

MacabreMikolaj said:


> So is riding a yearling in chains, stacks and tie downs.


 well said.... but you forgot soring.....


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## MacabreMikolaj

Citrus said:


> well said.... but you forgot soring.....


Well, I was aiming for the things we can blatantly see as being true, but you're right, a yearling in stacks that high is being sored even if by some miracle she isn't also sporting chemicals on her legs to boot. I somehow doubt she was lucky enough to escape that treatment though, with such responsible and loving owners. :roll:


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## Katesrider011

Yeah.... I quit watching like a quarter of the way through. That was pretty sad, and not to mention his posture was god awful.


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## Allison Finch

I SO dislike the "big licks". It seems so pointless to me. It speaks volumes on the TWH disposition that they try so hard when in so much apparent pain. Poor baby.

I can't figure how a tail, with the dock seemingly wrapped in vet wrap, hasn't had its circulation compromised. I will never wrap the dock. Only a couple of inches below and down.


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## MacabreMikolaj

Allison Finch said:


> I SO dislike the "big licks". It seems so pointless to me. It speaks volumes on the TWH disposition that they try so hard when in so much apparent pain. Poor baby.
> 
> I can't figure how a tail, with the dock seemingly wrapped in vet wrap, hasn't had its circulation compromised. I will never wrap the dock. Only a couple of inches below and down.


It's a well know practice in TWH and breeds like the Saddlebred of actually severing the tendon of the tail so it can be "set" with a fake tail to basically a completely false position.

An example of a horse I'd bet money has a "fixed" tail:


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## JustDressageIt

She doesn't walk even in the back end.


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## Citrus

She doesn't.... she just drags her feet.... I have watched youtubes of TWH falling due to soring.... poor babies, all of them.... seems the ones born ugly are the lucky ones.


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## ridergirl23

oh my gosh. i would like like to hit that man right off that horses back with a metal baseball bat. It amazes me how people could get on a horse obviously in that much pain (nvm even putting that horse in that pain!!!) and still sleep at night! I hope something very VERY horrible happens to those people.


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## crimsonsky

karma. that's all i can say.


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## LoveStory10

Ok, I must say that living in a country were we don't have that breed or whatever show/sport she's training for, I don't understand some of the terms you all used. But...

Even I can see that poor little FOAL (because that's really what she is), is in a lot of pain. She seems to struggle to get the gait she's asked to do, and the equipment he has on her is just terrible! I assume the gait she is doing is used in the show ring for whatever discipline it's for? May I just ask what the point of the gait is? It cant be natural!

Please excuse my lack of knowledge, but I feel sorry for the poor girl, and I'm curios... Thanks


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## apachiedragon

LoveStory, this is what Wikipedia says about the Big Lick. Just like a lot of other disciplines, it was created to win in the show ring, and when rewarded, was made bigger and more abusive just for ribbons.



> History of the "Big Lick"
> During the late 1940s and early 1950s, when Walking Horses enjoyed a surge of widespread popularity with the general public, exaggerated front leg action, especially at the running walk, drew spectators to horse shows and helped further increase the popularity of the breed. This action was also rewarded by judges. Thus began the rage for "big lick" movement. While "lite shod" horses with naturally good movement could comfortably perform this crowd-pleasing gait at the time, it took both natural ability and considerable time to properly train and condition the horse.
> Some individuals, wishing to produce similar movement in less-talented horses or in less time, borrowed practices used by other breeds to enhance movement. This included action devices such as weighted shoes, "Stacks" (stacked pads), and the use of weighted chains around the pasterns, all of which, within certain limits, were allowed.
> As these methods produced horses that won in the show ring, and as ever-higher and more dramatic action was rewarded by the judges, some trainers turned to less savory methods to produce high action in a hurry. These methods including excessively heavy weighted chains, use of tacks deliberately placed under the shoe into the "white line" or quick, of the hoof, and the controversial practice of "soring," the application of a caustic chemical agent to the front legs to make it painful for the horse to put its feet down.


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## LoveStory10

That's disgusting!! ^^^


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## sorraiamustangs

WOW! His posture does suck. That poor baby looks so uncomfortable!


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## SorrelHorse

That does irritate me. It makes me wonder how long she has been in training before that.

I start my horses at two, yes, but that's _starting them. _I'm not expecting a high dollar, money-winning, perfectly gaited n the ground stopper or barrel turner until much later.

Some people, I swear.


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## sixlets

That's just sickening. How can that guy sleep knowing what he's doing to that baby?! I'm sure when he started the filly her bones weren't even close to being ready; I'm waiting until my filly is well past 3 to start her (WB mature slower). Sure, I'm not a fan of gaiting, but NO ONE with a soul could say that's okay. You can almost feel how scared that poor filly is; they probably put the blinders on so you couldn't see the fear in her eyes. There's a special place in he-double hockeysticks for people like him. :evil:


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## MacabreMikolaj

I think it's the combination that makes it so heart wrenching - like as if it's not bad enough you're riding a yearling, you're putting unbelievable stress and strain on her legs making her move so unnaturally.

It really makes me question if the rampant unsoundness in big lick TWH is actually due to the stacks they're forced to wear or if it's actually due to starting them SO young. I assume a pretty hefty combination of both - they have 2 year old futurities, and performing a gait so unnatural to them HAS to have serious consequences. 

They have videos of older horses showing this horrible wobble they get to their back legs, it's just heart breaking.


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## Tennessee

Makes me ashamed to be from Tennessee, where this is going on A LOT.


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## kevinshorses

But isn't she lovely? No she isn't and niether is the rider.


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## AlexS

I watched about 30 seconds, that was enough for me. I would like to leave a comment on youtube, but apparently the owner or trainer realizes it is a problem to and doesn't want the comments.


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## lacyloo

How in the world does anyone find this unnatural gait attractive? Maybe if people stopped going to the shows this would start to decrease over time.


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## glitterhorse

poor thing! *INSERT PROFANITY HERE* I am so freaking angry at this guy!!! And idk if this is a stupid question but...what's up with the guys riding???


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## MacabreMikolaj

glitterhorse said:


> poor thing! *INSERT PROFANITY HERE* I am so freaking angry at this guy!!! And idk if this is a stupid question but...what's up with the guys riding???


It's fairly common to see. I mean absolutely NO offense to the men here, but the TWH big lick world is pretty much dominated by big, stupid, blithering, ******* men. Due to the extreme upwards angle and the generally quite small stature of the TWH in comparison to the guy's who could be pro steer wrestlers riding them, you often see this contorted hunched over posture in an effort just to stay on. :roll: 

Obviously women are involved as well, but they tend to try to blind themselves to the abuse whereas you get some of the sickest most twisted men you'll ever find in the horse world (or ANY world) involved in big lick. I think you HAVE to be to inflict this sort of torture onto a living creature.

Keep in mind, my basis of this is based on the countless interviews and news reports I've seen. And every man I have EVER seen involved was some psychopath you just know beats his wife and children in his "down time" for "fun".


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## VanillaBean

This is so wrong. Think of how much pain she will endure during her lifetime.
Disgusting.

VB


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## sixlets

CNN

Here's a CNN expose on the Bick Lick done in what looks like the 80s. It's so sad that so little has changed.


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## vivache

You'd be surprised how many horses DON'T end up having issues from that kind of training. We have a horse at work who we believe was padded at one point in her life. Other than being old and blind as a freakin' bat from Uveitis, she's perfectly OK. Marks on her pastern, but she has a cute little gait in the field and isn't decrepit aside from natural aging effects.

Most of these horses burn out by 6.

Around here, we have little demand for built-up horses. ALL of our horses are flatshod or barefoot. If my horse got pads on, she'd just stand there like 'lol my feet are heavy. better just stand here and eat.'


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## AlexS

vivache said:


> You'd be surprised how many horses DON'T end up having issues from that kind of training. We have a horse at work who we believe was padded at one point in her life. Other than being old and blind as a freakin' bat from Uveitis, she's perfectly OK. Marks on her pastern, but she has a cute little gait in the field and isn't decrepit aside from natural aging effects.
> 
> Most of these horses burn out by 6.
> 
> Around here, we have little demand for built-up horses. ALL of our horses are flatshod or barefoot. If my horse got pads on, she'd just stand there like 'lol my feet are heavy. better just stand here and eat.'



So your horse is just doing what she knows, doesn't mean she doesn't have issues with it. And they are sound til 6? So that is 3-4 years of riding?

Not bashing you, just saying.


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## vivache

She is absolutely not my horse. I hardly know her history, but her feet have markers. I can't really attest to her soundness under saddle, because there is only one horse on the property that is ever ridden.

From what I understand, they are often unable to show well after 6ish. After that, people tend to trail ride, etc. Not *necessarily* unsound, just done.


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## Juniper

The vast majority of the show horses have a lot of health problems and soreness issues. Especially stifle, hock, cribbing from stress. 
If you want to see change donate money to an organization fighting for change. Even if you can only give $20. I would not give to the national humane society though. There was a person on here last year who put a website up that I donated to. I lost the address. I will see what I can do about finding it again.


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## Levade

Couldn't watch more than a few seconds, make me feel physically sick :-( Poor little filly :-(


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## Kayty

Wow :/ I feel so sheltered here in Australia, I don't think we have ANY of this sort of discipline... not that I've seen or heard of anyway. 
How sickening.


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## MacabreMikolaj

Kayty said:


> Wow :/ I feel so sheltered here in Australia, I don't think we have ANY of this sort of discipline... not that I've seen or heard of anyway.
> How sickening.


Thankfully, being a "Tennessee Walking Horse", this discipline is almost entirely focused in Tennessee with a bit occurring in other surrounding southern States. We don't have any of it up in Canada either.

Although, gaited breeds in general don't have it much better. The soring isn't as bad, but Saddlebreds and Arabs are rife with their own problems - they're also stacked, and use action devices such as chains. They're known to have their tails cut to "set them" properly, or things like ginger on their anuses to give that "freaked out high strung" look. I do believe they retire a lot more sound, they tend to have such a naturally high stepping gait that soring wouldn't be beneficial whatsoever, but they still have a lot of their own problems.

I guess any discipline/breed does though.


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## Tennessee

MacabreMikolaj said:


> Thankfully, being a "Tennessee Walking Horse", this discipline is almost entirely focused in Tennessee with a bit occurring in other surrounding southern States. We don't have any of it up in Canada either.


I was unaware that it was pretty much exclusive to my area. That's sad.


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## DSJ46

This is a sad video. But how many horses are sold down the road (and many meet bad ends) because a kid or dressage performer "outgrew" them or the horse could no longer perform because of injury? That is about ribbons and trophies too, and not about the horse. I feel sad for these perpetual transients as well.


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## HollyBubbles

HeadDesk HeadDesk HeadDesk... I swear some people are only alive because it's illegal to kill them, that's horrible. I don't even want to imagine/know how they got the poor baby to do that in the first place.


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## HollyBubbles

DSJ46 said:


> This is a sad video. But how many horses are sold down the road (and many meet bad ends) *because a kid or dressage performer "outgrew" them or the horse could no longer perform because of injury? That is about ribbons and trophies too, and not about the horse*. I feel sad for these perpetual transients as well.


We can't all keep every horse/pony we've ever owned though. (believe me if I would if I could). Over here it is generally about the horse, not saying always, but generally. Many people who don't even compete at all over here sell on horses because they physically outgrew them... eg would you really like to see my sister who is 7 at the moment, still riding the same 38" miniature horse by the time she is 20? I think that's cruel to the horse.
And just for example...What are you supposed to do if your a showjumper, who has a pony that loves being out and about, but once you turn 17 the pony has to be converted into a pasture puff at home all the time? I think I would rather sell said pony to another family who would keep doing what the pony loves to do... Just my opinion, not trying to bash or anything


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## DSJ46

Same here. I don't want to bash anyone either. And sometimes people sell a horse for the horse's betterment. But I think it is too easy to start thinking of a horse like a lawnmower, something you use for a while only to get a new one. They are sentient beings with emotional attachments, and I can't think that changing hands too many times is good for them. And I guess that's why I would never get my daughters a pony. I never want to have a pet that eventually will be "outgrown."


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## DSJ46

And there is another issue, especially in hard economic times. Once a horse starts changing hands, its chances of ending up in the slaughterhouse increase exponentially. HORSE ILLUSTRATED had an eye-opening article about this several months ago. If my horse broke down tomorrow and I couldn't ride her anymore, well, then I would have a nice pet that I couldn't ride for the next 30 years.


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