# Can't stop my Horse



## Marecare

Horses don't stop because of the bit,they stop because of the training.

They have to learn the cue and completely understand it.
This happens because of the consistent training that is given by the handler.
After all,
Horses know how to stop in a herd don't they?
The handler must impart the correct cues through timing and balance to the horse to reinforce to signal to stop.

Use a fence,a tree,a wall of a barn to help.
Start with ground handling.


----------



## anrz

Start with shorter rides maybe? There is a horse at my barn (a BIG horse; 18 hands and a Percheron and only 7) who is like that. He will trot back to the barn and he is so big that it can be hard to stop him. They are just working on LEADING him back to the barn slowly. They started with just about 30ft away and going back, and are slowly progressing to where he is aware of what people are asking him to do. Don't go on a long ride and expect big things (like stopping and going slowly on a long ride first), start with little things first and progress slowly. When your horse is good, even if the progression is hardly anything, reward them with a pat and a "good girl". I agree with Marecare, horses don't stop because of the bit, but because of the training.


----------



## savvylover112

Marecare said:


> Horses don't stop because of the bit,they stop because of the training.


I completely agree bigger and bolder and stronger bits are never the answer never


----------



## kevinshorses

Make him work much harder at the barn than on the trail. If he charges back to the barn and you get off of him and put him away there is no way he'll stop wanting to get back to the barn. Ride him out then ride him back and work him hard in the yard then ride him back out on the trail.


----------



## Scoutrider

I second kevinshorses' suggestion, in addition to groundwork. Get a perfect whoa in hand (at the walk and the trot, and at the canter on a lungeline if she lunges) so she understands what the word and the cue mean, then try under saddle. If she won't stop at the walk, don't try to go faster. 

_Please_ stay with a mild bit and work through the behavior. My bit recommendation would be a simple snaffle. I personally use an eggbutt, but if she gives you trouble with turning a dee ring or full cheek can help without getting a lot harsher. A french link mouth reduces "nutcracker" action, but some horses aren't crazy about that many moving pieces.


----------



## dashygirl

Scoutrider said:


> Get a perfect whoa in hand (at the walk and the trot, and at the canter on a lungeline if she lunges) so she understands what the word and the cue mean, then try under saddle. If she won't stop at the walk, don't try to go faster.


Yes, yes, yes! Start simple and then work your way up. She needs to understand what you're asking of her when you pull back and say "woah". Until then, this problem will not cease.


----------



## IMissMyHorseRocket

*If*

If you're riding western and you don't have a noseband, you should get a bit with a harsh port and longer shanks, and then add a noseband. You can buy them to put on the bit at some tack shops, or maybe look on the internet. The long shanks and harsh port of the bit will put pressure on her mouth, and the noseband will put pressure on her nose. It should overwhelm her and she should stop.


----------



## dressagebelle

I agree that the stopping issue is a training issue. It starts out simple, a slightly faster walk one the way home, first time out, then if she gets away with it, she starts going faster, and further out and then she starts trying to go home as soon as you take her out. I cannot stress enough how important having good ground manners is. No matter how sweet the horse may be, if it doesn't listen to you perfectly on the ground, its not going to listen to you when you are on it. Even if you ride western, don't put a harsher bit in her mouth. Start with ground manners first. Some horses do need a stronger bit, my dad's horse being one, only because he spent some 20 odd years barrel racing in a gag hackamore, so he ended up having a really hard mouth by the time we got him. I still rode him in a nice simple snaffle, but if he saw a barrel, he would try to take off and it required a one rein stop to get him to halt, and turning him away from the barrel, but then he'd listen. So for him sometimes we used something a little stronger to make sure my younger brother could stop him when he did gymkanas on him. Do lots of in hand work, and get her to listen both on the lunge line, and while leading, and only when she is listening perfectly, stopping at your shoulder when you stop, turning when you turn, ect., without any prompting, then you can get on and try her undersaddle. If she's bad enough, when you are on her, you might even try having someone lunge her when you are on her the first couple of times, to make sure she gets it right, and starts listening to you, but that way you are safe if she tries something when you first get back on.


----------



## Spastic_Dove

IMissMyHorseRocket said:


> If you're riding western and you don't have a noseband, you should get a bit with a harsh port and longer shanks, and then add a noseband. You can buy them to put on the bit at some tack shops, or maybe look on the internet. The long shanks and harsh port of the bit will put pressure on her mouth, and the noseband will put pressure on her nose. It should overwhelm her and she should stop.


Please don't do that. I agree with everyone else that you need to stick with a snaffle and teach her rather than try and force her. Leaving gaps in training will come back to bite you in the long run.


----------



## savvylover112

i agree completly with spastic dove dont do wat imissmyhorserocket suggested it is skipping training and leaving gaps


----------



## MyBoyPuck

Ugh. I feel for you. A jigging, pacing, just get there horse is a very frustrating experience. While I agree with others, that the bit is not the answer. With your mare, I would start with some very simple exercises. It sounds like when she acts up, she's already a few steps ahead of you. She knows that when she does A, you'll counter with B. She's already thinking about C,D and E, and I'm guessing you just end up a tense, frustrated rider who really just wants to get back to the barn and get off, ironically same as her. 

I would start in the ring with some very simple exercises. Break it down into one cause/one reaction concepts so she forgets about escalation. The first game I would play is walk/stop on a long rein. Let her walk freely and follow her motion completely with your seat. At your choice, ask her to stop by not following her motion with your seat, tighten your stomach mucles and sit tall and deep. At first you will have to use your reins to let her know what you want, but once she starts understanding what you want, try not to use them. The important thing with the game, and really all of them, is she has to do it correctly even if only once. It might take 10 minutes or an hour, so make sure you have time to follow through. When you succeed in stopping her with your seat, game #2 starts. Game #2 is she doesn't move forward until you say so. At first increase her chance of success by only making her stand a few seconds before moving on, but if she moves off prematurely, seat stop again. If she gets fussy, try as hard as possible not to resort to the reins. Sit deep and tall and make as little a deal about it as possible. Once you get start/stop down, try it near but outside of the ring. If your training is solid, walls shouldn't make a difference. Again, don't stop the lesson until she's done it correctly, even if it's only once. When she does it right, praise her big time. If she gets jiggy, act like it's all good and you have all day. Don't react to what she's doing, but do manage it. Use leg yeild, shoulder-in, haunches-in, whatever you need keep her attention until you can get it back to just a basic start/stop game. Mare's can be a little thick, but ultimately she needs you up there calling the shots. Good luck.


----------



## kevinshorses

The answer isn't in harsher bits and longer shanks. That would just be stupid.


----------



## SoMuchManureSoLittleTime

The horse has to know what "Whoa" means. Changing bits and equipment before the horse knows what you mean only serves to ruin his mouth and he still doesn't know what you're doing. You'll wind up with a head slinging horse that avoids the bit and acts crazy.

Like the others said, go back to groundwork and lungeline and teach what "whoa" means. They should know that on a halter without even having a bit in the mouth!


----------



## RoadRider / Rios Dad

Marecare said:


> Horses don't stop because of the bit,they stop because of the training.
> 
> .


If bits don't stop a horse how is it possible that I climb on unbroken horses, ride out the buck and then take them out almost immediately into the open spaces???
How is it possible that I spend only 3 or 4 days in a round pen getting ahold of a new youngster and then head out into the bush knowing I can stop him after only a few jumps if he tries?? A beleive me any new youngster will make those sudden out of the blue leaps but are quickly shut down.
I ride in a copper roller mouthpiece broken snaffle D ring.
Twice I have had people hold a horse and one was a 7 year old mostly wild stallion , these people hold the horse while I mount and then turn him loose and I head out??? How is this possible if a bit doesn't stop a horse???
I have been at it 51 years and have yet to have a horse run away with me.
Again I use a simple snaffle but move up to a mild curb as the horse becomes trained.
I also ride run aways for people and I will stop them with the bit.

What stops a horse in the middle of a wild horse race, when his head is only into running with the others and you pull him out of the race??? His training or his bit.. Take one away and will the other stop him??


----------



## RoadRider / Rios Dad

SoMuchManureSoLittleTime said:


> Like the others said, go back to groundwork and lungeline and teach what "whoa" means. They should know that on a halter without even having a bit in the mouth!


"Whoa " means nothing to a horse standing on a starting line with 60 other horses waiting for the starter to drop the flag and let the run begin. 
Do all the ground work you want, teach all the whoa you want on the lung line and you will still have a problem in a situtation like above.

A horse that is taught good and solid and by not saying please is the only way under all situations that it will hold.

Nearly every single ride I take has a planed situation build into it, one that the horse will be tested and will be forced to react in a certain way will train a horse to handle situations in the future.

You do ground work if you are not strong enough/ skilled enough to handle it from astride.

Again I have 20 years experience of only using bossels, side pulls, bitless but much much prefer a bit for lightness and 31 years of using bits
The bit is not for controlling a horse but a reinforcement if the other controls don't work. Soft hands but a strong enforcement when the time comes makes a soft horse.


----------



## shesinthebarn

RiosDad said:


> If bits don't stop a horse how is it possible that I climb on unbroken horses, ride out the buck and then take them out almost immediately into the open spaces???
> How is it possible that I spend only 3 or 4 days in a round pen getting ahold of a new youngster and then head out into the bush knowing I can stop him after only a few jumps if he tries?? A beleive me any new youngster will make those sudden out of the blue leaps but are quickly shut down.
> I ride in a copper roller mouthpiece broken snaffle D ring.
> Twice I have had people hold a horse and one was a 7 year old mostly wild stallion , these people hold the horse while I mount and then turn him loose and I head out??? How is this possible if a bit doesn't stop a horse???
> I have been at it 51 years and have yet to have a horse run away with me.
> Again I use a simple snaffle but move up to a mild curb as the horse becomes trained.
> I also ride run aways for people and I will stop them with the bit.
> 
> What stops a horse in the middle of a wild horse race, when his head is only into running with the others and you pull him out of the race??? His training or his bit.. Take one away and will the other stop him??


The horse will stop because of the bit - eventually, and for the wrong reasons, and it's possible you can pull so hard to make him stop that he'll flip over too. It is possible to muscle or intimidate a horse into stopping with a bit, that is for sure, but I think this young lady would like to have a relaxing and enjoyable experience for her and her horse, and that means stopping without fear, intimidation and wondering how hard she's gonna have to pull to stop. 
My suggestion to you is to find a good competent trainer who can help you and your horse as a team. 
"whoa" begins on the ground. It is so so simple to teach. Work on it doing everyday things - when you walk to the pasture, say "whoa" and ask him to stop. If he does not, make him stop with pressure on the lead, and make him back up. Reward him as he hets more responsive. Move it to when you are riding, but begin in an arena at the walk. Baby steps! Oh, and the word "whoa" should be exclusive to stopping. It should not mean "slow down", or "stop soon please" - it should mean STOP RIGHT NOW!! 
I hope for you have success dealing with this problem, and you and your horse can enjoy your rides more!


----------



## RoadRider / Rios Dad

shesinthebarn said:


> The horse will stop because of the bit - eventually, and for the wrong reasons, and it's possible you can pull so hard to make him stop that he'll flip over too. It is possible to muscle or intimidate a horse into stopping with a bit, that is for sure, but I think this young lady would like to have a relaxing and enjoyable experience for her and her horse, and that means stopping without fear, intimidation and wondering how hard she's gonna have to pull to stop.
> My suggestion to you is to find a good competent trainer who can help you and your horse as a team.
> "whoa" begins on the ground. It is so so simple to teach. Work on it doing everyday things - when you walk to the pasture, say "whoa" and ask him to stop. If he does not, make him stop with pressure on the lead, and make him back up. Reward him as he hets more responsive. Move it to when you are riding, but begin in an arena at the walk. Baby steps! Oh, and the word "whoa" should be exclusive to stopping. It should not mean "slow down", or "stop soon please" - it should mean STOP RIGHT NOW!!
> I hope for you have success dealing with this problem, and you and your horse can enjoy your rides more!


That's just it. I don't need help. MY guys set the standard for any horses around them. They are the best in any barn. Their manners, their relaxed way of going, just everything about them. I am not just bragging. I am stating a fact that anyone who knows my guys will attest too.
I am just sharing my method, my way of creating this type of horse.
It doesn't come with methods I read here. It comes with hard work, a knowledge of how to create this type of horse and years of experience.
Enjoy my rides?? I put almost 50 miles a week on a horse, week after week of pure fun. Weather , wind, rain, snow does not stop a ride I plane.
I am an addict. I have an addiction. I coverd about 30 miles this weekend even with heat approaching 100 in the mid day. How many miles did you cover???


----------



## Marecare

RiosDad said:


> "Whoa " means nothing to a horse standing on a starting line with 60 other horses waiting for the starter to drop the flag and let the run begin.
> Do all the ground work you want, teach all the whoa you want on the lung line and you will still have a problem in a situtation like above.
> 
> A horse that is taught good and solid and by not saying please is the only way under all situations that it will hold.
> 
> Nearly every single ride I take has a planed situation build into it, one that the horse will be tested and will be forced to react in a certain way will train a horse to handle situations in the future.
> 
> You do ground work if you are not strong enough/ skilled enough to handle it from astride.
> 
> Again I have 20 years experience of only using bossels, side pulls, bitless but much much prefer a bit for lightness and 31 years of using bits
> The bit is not for controlling a horse but a reinforcement if the other controls don't work. Soft hands but a strong enforcement when the time comes makes a soft horse.


A lot of brag and bravado as usual,but not much help to the OP.


----------



## xxBarry Godden

Teddy Boy, anger won't help. The mare will pick up on your anger - your harsh hands, your voice, the whip, the boot. She'll know she is winning her battle with you. You've entered her comfort zone and she wants you out. If you are to win then you must lose the anger and if you can't then think about passing her on.

All the cues as to what to do have been posted already. Take your pick.
Many of us have been where you are now. Some horses need subtle handling. Some horses are devious.

If she were mine then: 
First ignore her for a week or two. Let her feel neglected. Make a fuss of other horses in her vision. Don't let other humans near her. Make her jealous.

Then one day back to basics in the round pen.
Take off all the bits, work in a training halter which acts on the nose and the poll. Take off all the tiedowns. You are going to ask her and not demand. Round and round you go. Lots of stops and starts. Make her bored. Get her to walk at your shoulder without contact on the lead rope. Get her to turn with you. Work her daily.

Only you to handle her,to feed her,to groom her. You are to be her human - her only human. Once she starts to whinnie when you approach then you are beginning to win.

Eventually work her in the saddle in the pen. Lots of circles, lots of stops. Some backups. Lots of obstacles. Use a very light pull back on the reins. Get her to stand still for 5 minutes or so whilst you gossip.

It takes time and patience. You must never ever get angry with her again. No crops. No shouting. No arms. No spurs. No tugging on the mouth. 

Always 'Ask' her, 'demand' of her then finally 'insist' but always ask her first. A light quiet voice. The lightest of pressure only on the lead rein. If you get angry then she knows instantly she has won.

If you don't think your winning then ask someone knowledgeable to watch. But don't pass her on to another teacher to work. She has to come to accept you as the boss.

Maybe eventually you might decide she is not for you however maybe you can with patience win. You are the more intelligent, you have the odds in your favour. She is your horse. 

SHe has to do willingly what you ask in the arena - otherwise out in the open you have no chance and the longer disobedience goes on, the worse the disobedience will get. A lawless horse is no good to you.
or anyone close by. To be safe you must be in control and the horse must trust you.

Be patient. Be clever. Enjoy the battle of wits. Be careful. Join the club.

Barry G


----------



## Bronco Hollow

kevinshorses said:


> Make him work much harder at the barn than on the trail. If he charges back to the barn and you get off of him and put him away there is no way he'll stop wanting to get back to the barn. Ride him out then ride him back and work him hard in the yard then ride him back out on the trail.


I agree. I know it is frustrating, but try and remain calm and steadfast in working her. You may want to start out just moving away from the barn a short distance then working her from there on the return, working your way further away from the barn each time. Do not let her get away with it anymore, just be prepared to not stop until she improves ... then you can stop, from there I'd tie her to a tree and let her stand for a while saddled. This way she'll associate the barn w/work and once back to the barn she is not immediately unsaddled and let go.


----------



## RoadRider / Rios Dad

Marecare said:


> A lot of brag and bravado as usual,but not much help to the OP.


I am offering advice. Going back to the ground won't help. Lunging her, teacher her Whoa from the ground doesn't help.
Using padded halters, side pulls, bitless won't help.
You need a good bit, one that will stop a horse and use it in a firm manner to teach manners. 
I spend NO time on the ground, everything is done from the back. I believe in a bit, a snaffle for me but if the person is not skilled or strong then use a stronger bit, use it gentlely but when the time comes get his attention.
Horses don't understand please, they don't understand reasoning. The head horse in a field doesn't control the others with please and thank you, he uses his teeth and hooves and enforces his position.
You have to do the same.


----------



## FlitterBug

I probably only put in about 20 miles this past weekend, slacking, I know.

Groundwork is not a waste of time and not something that I think can always be done better astride. When I get a horse with serious physical issues, a terribly depleted topline, and seriously poor posture, then I am going to do groundwork before I compromise that horse with more weight on its back. This way, I can help it physically and mentally before asking it to carry extra weight.

I have bucked out my share of horses, worked with plenty of runaways, had plenty of horses that upon meeting me, though I would look better stomped into the ground. My mission with these horses is not "how do I make this behavior stop", but "why did this happen in the first place". That is what I am looking to fix. Prevention to these habits is education of the person. Through the years, people have begun to lost their ability to work kinesthetically. To tell a person to do what you are telling them to do is downright dangerous to the person and the horse without the right experience and knowledge. Even now, I prefer to teach the horse how to balance itself before adding that weight. I like to teach them to invite the rider on.

Groundwork builds confidence, understanding, and acceptance. All of these together help develop the rider and the horse in a safer way. It might be slower, but if we can get to the same destination without instilling fear in the rider and the horse, that is the route that I choose to take.

To the OP, no, a bigger bit is not going to fix your problem. It may be able to control it for a while, but I always look for a horse to want to work with me rather than just make it something that they have to tollerate or feel pain.

So to my original question, why does the horse blow through the bit? First of all, it would be lack of respect for the aid. This can be established solidly at home. Work on your walk and halt transitions, and stand until the horse is able to find relaxation in the stand still. Make sure that there is more to telling your horse to stop than just the bit. Make sure your eyes are up, you're feeling your seat drop into the saddle, vocal commands are helpful, and keep anything pushing forward off of the horse. Many people are pulling back on the reins while everything else in their body is screaming "run away". Practice your stops until your horse is stopping off of all of the signals and the bit is only the reinforcement if needed. Do this by practicing this way, give the command with seat and voice, follow up within a couple seconds with rein. Make sure you are not leaning forward and are relaxed in your seat, not tensing up. If you are insecure doing this at home in the saddle, then start it on the ground. I have no problems with that. If you are not feeling confident, then your horse has no reason to accept you in the leader role, and therefore no reason to stop when you say stop if their security lies in the barn. If you feel this in the least, then start on the ground and progress to the saddle. Strive for perfection with your commands. I'm not simply looking for a horse to stop, but I want them to stop NOW. I can only expect that if I have given the horse the tools to accept that and the solidity in my leadership.

Start with walking on your rides. Every time you stop, stay there until the horse is relaxed with where it is. Otherwise, you are not accomplishing the ultimate goal of the horse finding comfort in standing with you. I am not a huge fan of make them work when they are not doing what you want, mainly because I want my horses to want to work.

Don't expect your horse to have a quick fix here, remember that consistency leads to leadership. Knowledge and practice lead to consistency. You can only expect of the horse what you are willing to give to him. Its not a matter of teaching someone how to drive when we are teaching them to ride a horse, its a matter of teaching them how to be a leader, a mechanic, an observer, a listener, an educator, an athlete, and once you do that, the driving comes easily.

Try to figure out where the problem stems from, don't be afraid to ask for help, and don't get in over your head, if you lose your cool, the horse will lose theirs.


----------



## RoadRider / Rios Dad

FlitterBug said:


> Groundwork is not a waste of time and not something that I think can always be done better astride. When I get a horse with serious physical issues, a terribly depleted topline, and seriously poor posture, then I am going to do groundwork before I compromise that horse with more weight on its back. This way, I can help it physically and mentally before asking it to carry extra weight.
> 
> .


I don't know about most but to keeping a horse for me is about $5000 per year. It costs the same to keep a good one as it does to keep a poor one. The cost of a horse is minor compared to the cost of keeping it.
Why bother with a poor one. If you are out looking for a prospect pick a good one, spend a little more but pick a good foundation.
I would not pick one with a serious physical issue.
It is great that people out there are willing to take in physical diabled horses but I won't work with one or keep one myself.
At a cost of $5000 times the years you hang onto them it is just not worth it.


----------



## JustDressageIt

RiosDad said:


> I am offering advice. Going back to the ground won't help. Lunging her, teacher her Whoa from the ground doesn't help.
> Using padded halters, side pulls, bitless won't help.
> You need a good bit, one that will stop a horse and use it in a firm manner to teach manners.
> I spend NO time on the ground, everything is done from the back. I believe in a bit, a snaffle for me but if the person is not skilled or strong then use a stronger bit, use it gentlely but when the time comes get his attention.
> Horses don't understand please, they don't understand reasoning. The head horse in a field doesn't control the others with please and thank you, he uses his teeth and hooves and enforces his position.
> You have to do the same.


This idea of training is what I try my darndest to avoid.

You DO NOT need a harsher bit!

To the poster that suggested a higher port/longer shanks/noseband - good grief! No no no no and no again! 

Going back to the ground will help. If you install a solid verbal "WHOA" on the horse in hand, and transfer it to the saddle, I think you're moving in the right direction. Get the horse stopping on command while on a lead first, then move it to the lunge line. 

WHOA should come from the seat, not the hands and certainly not from the bit. Sitting deeper and relaxing your back can do wonders that yanking on a horse's mouth can't. 

We are not horses in a herd. We do not need to kick or bite or do any of that nonsense. Horses are smart critters and definitely understand voice commands. Hell, they can feel a fly, so certainly slight position changes of a rider would be sufficient.


----------



## onetoomany

It sounds to me as though your horse has more of an issue with being barn sour than with a sticky whoa. I agree completely with making her work harder on her way back. Do lots of roll backs, circles etc. When she starts to slow down release and let her continue on but when she starts trying to pick up speed again- make her work.

I must say that I whole heartedly disagree with RiosDad's statements about ground work. Ground work lays a foundation for under saddle work. Most of the training we do is based on the assumption that they learn something and can then carry what they learned over into another excersize. By doing groundwork we lay down a foundation to build upon. As with everything there are those people who take groundwork to the extreme and get stuck there and don't advance and you must be sadly lumping everyone into that group. I won't continue on with what else I found wrong in your statements but you are seriously missing out on some very basic theories concerning hores training.


----------



## FlitterBug

RiosDad said:


> I don't know about most but to keeping a horse for me is about $5000 per year. It costs the same to keep a good one as it does to keep a poor one. The cost of a horse is minor compared to the cost of keeping it.
> Why bother with a poor one. If you are out looking for a prospect pick a good one, spend a little more but pick a good foundation.
> I would not pick one with a serious physical issue.
> It is great that people out there are willing to take in physical diabled horses but I won't work with one or keep one myself.
> At a cost of $5000 times the years you hang onto them it is just not worth it.


 
I manage a rather large rescue facility and I am one of the head trainers. We don't really get to pick what comes in, nor do I pay for them. However, it is my job to retrain these horses to the point where they can be placed in relatively novice homes. We work with the extremes and the hopeless on all levels along with the people with the hearts big enough to take them in, but rarely the experience needed. Working with these horses not only gives me the knowledge to fix them, but also the knowledge of prevention. I could pump out well started horses if I wanted, but where is the challenge in that? Problem horses and problem people are just what I work with. I don't choose the horses that I get to work, its usually just the last stop.


----------



## Marecare

FlitterBug said:


> I manage a rather large rescue facility and I am one of the head trainers. We don't really get to pick what comes in, nor do I pay for them. However, it is my job to retrain these horses to the point where they can be placed in relatively novice homes. We work with the extremes and the hopeless on all levels along with the people with the hearts big enough to take them in, but rarely the experience needed. Working with these horses not only gives me the knowledge to fix them, but also the knowledge of prevention. I could pump out well started horses if I wanted, but where is the challenge in that? Problem horses and problem people are just what I work with. I don't choose the horses that I get to work, its usually just the last stop.



You are to be commended for your hard work and knowledge!
It is people like you that make a BIG difference.

Thank You


----------



## Sunny06

^ I agree.


----------



## Scoutrider

RiosDad said:


> I don't know about most but to keeping a horse for me is about $5000 per year. It costs the same to keep a good one as it does to keep a poor one. The cost of a horse is minor compared to the cost of keeping it.
> Why bother with a poor one. If you are out looking for a prospect pick a good one, spend a little more but pick a good foundation.
> I would not pick one with a serious physical issue.
> It is great that people out there are willing to take in physical diabled horses but I won't work with one or keep one myself.
> At a cost of $5000 times the years you hang onto them it is just not worth it.


Perhaps it's the difference in the geographical area, (and not that it really applies to the topic... sorry) but unless I have an unforseen vet expense my annual cost per horse (kept stabled @ home with daily turnout) is generally under $1,000. Believe me, I was in 4-H for 6 years, and we have to track every penny as part of our projects. If I learned a thing from 4-H it was book-keeping, lol.

I do understand from your other posts and threads that you do and have done a lot of work with horses and training for yourself and others, and that this probably takes up much of your time, but for me personally, I derive a lot of enjoyment from dealing with "issues," building/repairing foundations, and tweaking. So much of that can be aided and expedited through the _correct_ use of groundwork. Instead of riding through ten minutes of "bronc-y" attitude and bucking on a greenie, you can start the first ride on an attentive, calm (albeit likely confused, it _is _the hypothetical first ride...) animal. Ideally, the yougster has been brought up with manners taught to it and lots of exposure to different stimuli, and the necessity for pre-ride groundwork is minimal. In my experience, which is all that I can comment on, five minutes of groundwork with a fresh or green horse can save tons of energy, pulling, kicking, and headache for all involved later in the ride. 

Also, if horses do not understand the basic concept of reacting to "please," why does my horse move politely out of the way when I merely look at his hip/shoulder, move forward instantly to a gentle touch of my leg, and stop off the twitch of my pinkie on the rein/lead? Yes, please is a concept that must be taught to a horse, but every human must learn it as well. "Gimme" and "Lemme" are innate, "Please" and "Yes'm/Yessir" must me learned.

Just my 2 cents.

Kudos, Flitterbug, on all of your hard work with the horses and humans you've helped. Absolutely awesome!


----------



## shesinthebarn

RiosDad said:


> That's just it. I don't need help. MY guys set the standard for any horses around them. They are the best in any barn. Their manners, their relaxed way of going, just everything about them. I am not just bragging. I am stating a fact that anyone who knows my guys will attest too.
> I am just sharing my method, my way of creating this type of horse.
> It doesn't come with methods I read here. It comes with hard work, a knowledge of how to create this type of horse and years of experience.
> Enjoy my rides?? I put almost 50 miles a week on a horse, week after week of pure fun. Weather , wind, rain, snow does not stop a ride I plane.
> I am an addict. I have an addiction. I coverd about 30 miles this weekend even with heat approaching 100 in the mid day. How many miles did you cover???


 At LEAST AS MANY AS YOU! I work full time in horses. However, this thread is not about you, or me, it's about a girl who is trying to find a better wat to controll her horse on rides. It doesn't matter what you ride in "wind, rain", this girl wants to safely stop her horse, and from what I understand, he is starting to rear when she pulls on him. It's my understanding she is looking for an alternative.
Any good horseman knows that there are many ways to go about a situation. Not every horse falls into the standard.


----------



## shesinthebarn

OMG! When I wad talking about enjoying your rides, I was not talking to Riosdad...I was offering advice to OP.
As I mentioned, this thread is not about anything than helping the OP, not the bragging of some other members!


----------



## JustDressageIt

RiosDad said:


> I coverd about 30 miles this weekend even with heat approaching 100 in the mid day. How many miles did you cover???


I prefer quality over quantity. I don't judge my rides by how much ground I've covered, but rather the quality of training they get. 
I always say you can be doing something for 60 years and still be doing it wrong.


----------



## SoMuchManureSoLittleTime

RiosDad said:


> "Whoa " means nothing to a horse standing on a starting line with 60 other horses waiting for the starter to drop the flag and let the run begin.
> Do all the ground work you want, teach all the whoa you want on the lung line and you will still have a problem in a situtation like above.
> 
> A horse that is taught good and solid and by not saying please is the only way under all situations that it will hold.
> 
> Nearly every single ride I take has a planed situation build into it, one that the horse will be tested and will be forced to react in a certain way will train a horse to handle situations in the future.
> 
> You do ground work if you are not strong enough/ skilled enough to handle it from astride.
> 
> Again I have 20 years experience of only using bossels, side pulls, bitless but much much prefer a bit for lightness and 31 years of using bits
> The bit is not for controlling a horse but a reinforcement if the other controls don't work. Soft hands but a strong enforcement when the time comes makes a soft horse.


Egads! The OP didn't say she was lined up waiting for a flag to drop like she was in a race.

RiosDad, maybe you are a big, strong, stout cowboy, but the OP wants the horse to stop without a big physical fight. You act like manhandling them is all you have to do. So do it your way. We don't care if you like to do that sort of thing. 

You don't need any crank bits or strong bits to get them to stop. Horses can learn a lot of verbal cues. 

Training means they understand what WHOA means, not just that they know they need to stop because you are going to physically manhandle them.


----------



## mom2pride

It sounds like you need to send her to a professional; keep yanking on her mouth, reinforcing her UP tendency, and you will really be in trouble. 

A bit doesn't stop a horse, anyway...She needs to go back to the bare bones basics, with a snaffle (plain ring, or French Link), or a rope halter...If you are trying to one rein stop her with various curb bits, that can be part of the problem, as these bits aren't designed for individual rein pressure. 

The main thing I see is that you need work as a rider; if you are getting so frustrated with your horse, that you are yanking on her, and causing her to rear up, or otherwise go into 'fight or flight mode', then you need lessons, just as much as your horse needs a professional trainer. Your anxiety could be MOST of her problem.


----------



## mom2pride

RiosDad said:


> I am offering advice. Going back to the ground won't help. Lunging her, teacher her Whoa from the ground doesn't help.
> Using padded halters, side pulls, bitless won't help.
> You need a good bit, one that will stop a horse and use it in a firm manner to teach manners.
> I spend NO time on the ground, everything is done from the back. I believe in a bit, a snaffle for me but if the person is not skilled or strong then use a stronger bit, use it gentlely but when the time comes get his attention.
> Horses don't understand please, they don't understand reasoning. The head horse in a field doesn't control the others with please and thank you, he uses his teeth and hooves and enforces his position.
> You have to do the same.


Wow...Considering, that the OP has already stated that different bits have already been tried, I'm disappointed at your 'advise'...

I also have to disagree with you on the ground work aspect...I have retrained many horses with varying issues, and alot of the 'problem' has been fixed by properly establishing respect from the ground up; You can't simply get on a horse, and expect him to respect you especially if he HAS a history of disrespect, if you don't have that same respect from the ground. You seriously contradict yourself, when you say that you spend no time on the ground with your horses...

My Appy came with issues from biting, to NO Stop undersaddle...much of which has improved simply because I have taken the time to establish a proper working relationship from the ground up. Teaching him how to bend, and flex, without rearing up...because he didn't know how 'not' to rear up when you took up a rein. This was done from the ground, and DID transfer to saddle work. He's also been taught to yield his hind, and forequarters...again, on the ground first, and then transferred easily undersaddle, because the 'buttons' were already there. And I didn't shove a rough bit in his mouth either...on the contrary, I took him down to a plain sweet iron snaffle bit...So tell me ground work doesn't pay off. People HAVE to have a good working relationship with their horses from the ground before they get on...and improving that, CAN improve issues undersaddle. This guy isn't the first horse I have retrained either...and EVERY horse I train, or retrain, usually gets more time, or atleast equal, on average spent on ground work, than undersaddle.


----------



## xxBarry Godden

Wow, 4 pages of posts. Some from professional hard ball players, folks who seemingly work with horses for a living; some comments from amateur softees like me who firmly believe that horses like humans acquire some bad habits towards humans and the horse needs help in readjustment. Whatever, a nappy horse must be reschooled early on otherwise the problem can escalate.

The suggested solutions posted boil down to two methods - forcible persuasion or patient assessment and experimentation. Is the bit to be used as a brake or a communication aid? 

But we don't know much about either the frustrated owner with the problem or the horse. What we might do with our own experiences of horses might be inappropriate for "Teddyboy" to try. The horse may just be fearful and/or wilful or it might be a dangerous lunatic. 

My feeling about "nappy" (barn sour) horses is that they can get even more dangerous if handled badly. Much depends on how they got to be difficult. We don't know where the horse has been. We don't know what bad memories are in its head.

It is good to talk. It is good to exchange ideas. It is good to learn from others. However at the end of the day this owner wants to walk into the stable, tack the horse up and ride it out. To do that safely calls for full control over the horse. If the horse was in my yard, I'd offer to help the owner. But on the internet I can only write words in the earnest hope that what I have written is understood correctly. I can't go up and touch the horse. I can't watch the rider handle the horse. In effect I am working blind.

There is a lot of good advice in this thread from some caring and knowledegable people. But we don't know the horse. We don't know the owner/rider.

I re read the original post - are two horses being ridden at the same time - one in hand? How experienced is the owner? I read words like "mad" "frustrated" "snatch" "rear". I know the feeling of anger but I also know the outcome. I visualize a wilful horse, turning round and pulling to go back to the yard. I sense conflict. I sense impatience

No the strong bit is not the answer. You are using pain just at the time the horse is acting fearful. A tough bit increases the resistance. 
The trainer always starts on the ground with an unbroken horse. An option must be to go back to that early stage. If the horse won't respond to a new owner by re schooling in a contained arena, then maybe, to be safe, the owner should look for another horse.

The rider must come to being able to control the horse at all times by the lightest touch and by word of mouth. Monty Roberts teaches exactly how to do it. Buy his books. But it takes patience and some acquired knowledge.

Teddyboy started out by asking for advice. Now he/she has to make up his/her mind as to what to do.

Barry G


----------



## kevinshorses

*Rios Dad.*
*I have been at it 51 years and have yet to have a horse run away with me.
Again I use a simple snaffle but move up to a mild curb as the horse becomes trained.
I also ride run aways for people and I will stop them with the bit.*

I think I'm going to call BS on you. First, I find it hard to belive that you have been riding like you do for 51 years and never had a horse run off with you. Second, just because you are stupid enough to risk your life on horses like you describe doesn't mean that everyone can or should. Third, I think everyone will agree that the guy that shouts the loudest about how great he is is usually a fraud. If you had really been handling horses as long as you say you would recognise that there are better and easier ways than those you are touting.


----------



## RedRoan

Haha sorry but this thread is crazy.

To all the posts that are given about horses 'needing bits to stop' and horses 'cannot understand any concepts' then how the hell did Stacy Westfall stop this horse?






Don't know about you but I know **** well horses think, grasp concepts, and show emotions. Read your horse and you will learn. Jumping on and yanking his or her mouth around I don't agree with. Teach your horse how to stop without physical force (only body position) and you will be respected.


----------



## Spastic_Dove

^ *Applauds*


----------



## RoadRider / Rios Dad

kevinshorses said:


> I think I'm going to call BS on you. First, I find it hard to belive that you have been riding like you do for 51 years and never had a horse run off with you. Second, just because you are stupid enough to risk your life on horses like you describe doesn't mean that everyone can or should. Third, I think everyone will agree that the guy that shouts the loudest about how great he is is usually a fraud. If you had really been handling horses as long as you say you would recognise that there are better and easier ways than those you are touting.


In the late 50's early 60"s I was raised by two sets of parents. My uncle and aunt on a beautiful farm and my parents in town with a large apple orchard beside the house. The farm was 13 or 14 miles away. I spent the weekends and all summer on the farm but still spent 3 nights a week at home. I didn't have a car, was too young but what I did have was a gorgous big long legged runner. I made the trips back and forth on him. Come Saturday night, roller skating night I didn't spare the horsepower getting home, shower and go skating. Monday morning it was back on him and to the farm. I came home in the middle of the week again to roller skate. I would pick a run right out the laneway and hold it until I got home.
In the 80's 50 miles a weekend was a normal run for the boys.

Yes I do risk my life on horses at times and will ride most problems, did it regularly on Sunday mornings for a local rental place or anyone else who had a problem. Sorry if that offends you.

As for bragging? HOw do you know I am not some 13 year old kid just hidding behind a name??? One girl on another forum was one of the resident experts with over 4000 posts and one day she posted on her 100 foot ride down a road?? How does one let the forum know they have experience and are not some novice just giving out advice with no experience??
I wish everyone would tell their qualifications and then we would know who is qualified or not.
I will not tip toe around a problem. I will meet it head on. If a horse wants to buck then so be it. I don't break easily, I heal quickly and will give the horse his chance.
Sorry if that offends you.

Taken in about 1960


----------



## thesilverspear

Going back to the OP (and ignoring the row here).... 

First of all, don't get mad. Easier said than done. I appreciate that horses do things that can make us absolutely livid but in this situation you have to try to maintain calm and equanimity. If you get angry it upsets them more. 

Imagine things from the perspective of your horse: you're working with the human in the pasture for six months (not very long) and you seemingly have an okay relationship with this human but you may not be quite sure of them. In the pasture, however, it's not too much bother that you don't 100% trust this person because you're in the pasture, your mates are there, it's fine. Then one day you leave the pasture and go out into the big, scary wide world. You're not quite sure of this human as a herd leader and are less sure she will keep you safe when you're out of your comfort zone. There are lots of scary things out there, everything is unfamiliar and possibly dangerous. Your fight or flight response comes in and you want to run away, preferably back to the safety of your pasture and your mates. Then for no reason you can understand, the human gets really angry and starts pulling on your face and freaking you out, making the situation of leaving the pasture as bad and as scary as you imagined it to be. Once you're home, she dismounts, untacks, and turns you back out with your mates. You're safe and happy again. The next time the human takes you out, you try even harder to run home and she continues to go ballistic, tearing at your face (only this time it's even worse because she has put in a harsher bit!). This confirms your feelings that leaving the pasture is definitely a bad idea and you need to fight as hard as you can to get home, where you can relax with your mates, graze, and most importantly feel safe. 

Right, so I would recommend going back to basics and following the advice the majority of other posters here have given you -- building a trusting relationship with your horse, at first through groundwork. Trails can be a scary place for a horse. If they are unsure of being out and less sure of you as a herd leader that will keep them safe, they can act out. Try to set up situations where she can win and build up her confidence in you and herself. Go just a little ways from the pasture, where she is still comfortable, and gradually increase the distance. Assorted suggestions here along those lines so I won't repeat them. Definitely don't increase the coercive measures, as that will only reinforce the horse's fear.


----------



## NoniPony

WOOO for stacey westfall...i want to be able to do that with my horse... :/


----------



## goldilockz

Great googley moogley. 

I agree with working her harder at the barn than on the trail. Like a PP said, if you ride her home, jump off and she's done, why would she ever NOT want to hurry back to the barn? It's going to take a lot of work and even more patience, but you can do it! 

Short lunging or other slightly strenuous work just before and just after a short trail ride (working up to longer trail rides) should do the trick. Should, but it obviously depends on the horse.

Whatever you do, don't do the harsher bit/noseband thing. That will make her headshy, frustrated, and in pain. LAST thing you wanna do.

I hope you get it all figured out!


----------

