# Any guesses?



## tcopithorne (Oct 22, 2017)

phantomhorse13 said:


> Not having a grey parent, I don't think he _can_ be grey. I am not very familiar with donkey color genetics, but as far as I know, grey is dominant regardless of species.


I was thinking that also, but I dont know much about colour genetics. Thanks for your input.


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## tcopithorne (Oct 22, 2017)

SilverMaple said:


> Oh my goodness, he's darling! Whatever color he is, he's cute!
> 
> Mules have all sorts of strangeness in their coloration, so I'd wait and see. Part of the fun
> 
> ...



Hahaha, middle of nowhere will be the first place I look. Thank you!


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## tcopithorne (Oct 22, 2017)

BeckyMMiller said:


> He looks bay roan going grey. But neither parent is grey, so probably roan and some sabino or something


Thanks for the input, I agree completely, he looks to be greying. But as I mentioned above, I dont know much about colour genetics, and wasnt sure the grey gene could be involved.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

My roans always looked more roan during a shed which they seem to do more often than others. Don't be surprised if he goes back to looking more solid in a couple of weeks.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

A good friend of mine is a 'mule man' and says "every time you think you know the rules of mule color genetics, you find one that breaks the rules."  I showed him your little guy and asked his opinion. He said:

His color is 'good looking' and that's all that matters. Ha!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

No grey parent, so agree he is roaning End result can look much the same, except a roan will not loose all pigmented hair, like a grey
For instance, Both Charlie ans Carmen were born chestnut with Appaloosa coat markings

Charlie greyed, and has a grey parent

Carmen roaned Without knowing that fact, people could call them both greys
Cute baby, by the way!


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## tcopithorne (Oct 22, 2017)

JCnGrace said:


> Don't be surprised if he goes back to looking more solid in a couple of weeks.


When I went to look at him in person I had only seen pictures of him in his brown newborn coat, so he'd have to work prety hard to suprise me now.




SilverMaple said:


> His color is 'good looking' and that's all that matters. Ha!


Thanks for checking with your "mule man". Hes absolutely right! Good advice.


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## tcopithorne (Oct 22, 2017)

Smilie said:


> No grey parent, so agree he is roaning End result can look much the same, except a roan will not loose all pigmented hair, like a grey
> For instance, Both Charlie ans Carmen were born chestnut with Appaloosa coat markings
> 
> Charlie greyed, and has a grey parent
> ...


Great comparison, thats very helpfull. Thank you for the photo references of your beautiful horses.


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

Smilie said:


> Carmen roaned Without knowing that fact, people could call them both grey


Carmen is varnish/Lp though (at least I assume, knowing you are the appy queen). Varnish/Lp is not the same as traditional roan, which is what the OP's mare is. There is no possibility of Lp in the OP's mule.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

phantomhorse13 said:


> Carmen is varnish/Lp though (at least I assume, knowing you are the appy queen). Varnish/Lp is not the same as traditional roan, which is what the OP's mare is. There is no possibility of Lp in the OP's mule.



Yes, I know that the Appaloosa roan is not the same genetics as the roan in other breeds. 
None the less, varnish roans also retain some dark points, and as in regular roans, colored hair is not completely replaced by non pigmented areas, plus Appaloosa roans, just like regular roans, can lighten and darken, depending on seasons
You can still see on Carmen, where her socks used to be, plus her ears retain color at the tips, plus of coarse she has the facial roan characteristics.

The only way you can see where Charlie used to have a coat pattern, is if you wet her, and thus can see where the dark skin is

While none Appaloosas are going through the greying and roaning process,they also are often mistaken,for each other, just by visual observations

I was going to mention that the roaning seen in Appaloosas not being genetically the same, as in other horses, although it would be possible to have an Appaloosa from an outcross, that had both the true roan and the Appaloosa roaning genetics at work,but not possible of course, in the case of the OP's mule
Should thus have used perhaps examples from other breeds, far as the roaning, but thought I could sneak that one past, but you are a sharp genetic patrol, , Phantom!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

perhaps then, this link will better define the true roan from grey

GRAY VS ROAN HORSES: How to tell the difference between gray and roan


And in summary, so to be accurate, here is the difference between a true roan and the Varnish roan, associated with the Lp complex in Appaloosas

'Varnish Roan VS Roan
The leopard complex colors, characteristic of the Appaloosa, have several manifestations that feature mixtures of white and colored hairs. A varnish roan, one type of leopard complex coat color also called "marble", is an all-over blend of white and colored hairs. Patches of skin that lie close to the bone, such as on the face and legs, and the point of shoulder and point of hip, do not grow as much white hair. These darker patches are called "varnish marks" and are not found in true roans. Varnish roans can also be distinguished from true roans by the presence of leopard complex characteristics, such as the white sclera, striped hooves, and mottled skin around the eyes, muzzle, and genitals.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Makes you wonder if mom has rabicano and roan both or is simply a rabicano. I have a friend that moved here with a horse that looks very similar to mom that has what she says is a different roan pattern than standard and supposedly a different roan gene responsible called Frosty Roan. Pangere and spotting genes in donkeys can do funny things with rabicano or roaning in mules though. There is a FB page devoted to color called Mule and Donkey Color Genetics. It has a great PDF that shows different colors and which side is responsible based on the pattern.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Lost connection but wanted to say pangere and spotting from the donkey side to funny things to rabicano and roan from the horse horse side.

That baby is pure cuteness. Can't wait to see what happens with his color as he grows.


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## tcopithorne (Oct 22, 2017)

QtrBel said:


> Lost connection but wanted to say pangere and spotting from the donkey side to funny things to rabicano and roan from the horse horse side.
> 
> That baby is pure cuteness. Can't wait to see what happens with his color as he grows.


Thanks for the input, very interesting. I can certainly see pangere working on this little guy, I guess we'll see if it persists into next summer. Thanks also for the facebook group suggestion, looks like it will be a helpfull reference.

Phantomhorse13 and Smilie your posts are quite big so i dont want to quote them, but very interesting insights, thank you both.


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## haviris (Sep 16, 2009)

Mule colors are another ball game completely from horses, so you really can't compare them. I don't think they have studied them like they have horses, so just call it like you see it, I'd call him a spotted roan if he stays the color he is now, but who really knows. I had a surprise baby once, mom was a solid red quarter horse, dad was a spotted jack (more gray dun then your baby's dad, but otherwise looked similar), and the baby was mostly white with red running from the top of her head down her back (cutest baby ever, I'd share a pic, but photobucket locked me out), as she got older her red roaned, by the time I sold her (at 3 years old), she still had very light red roan down her back, and red freckles all over her ears, but at first glance she just looked solid white (and she was still pretty cute).

Mule colors are weird, and they just don't work like horse colors.


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## tcopithorne (Oct 22, 2017)

haviris said:


> Mule colors are weird, and they just don't work like horse colors.


Thanks for the input. I didnt realize they varried so greatly.


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## tcopithorne (Oct 22, 2017)

Just a quick update for anyone interested. Hes gone through another coat change in time for winter.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

He is still so very cute!


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

Oh man he's cute! Love love LOVE the color changing roan/rabicano/varnish/thingy going on. 

-- Kai


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

Just his left front alone is so fun - the rest of him is an added bonus. Thanks for the update.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Thanks for the new pics! He's such a fun color!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

So, parentage no way of being wrong?
There have been horses with the greying gene, where that expression does not start until that horse is in the early teens
Have you seen both parents lately, and no sign of greying?


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## tcopithorne (Oct 22, 2017)

Smilie said:


> So, parentage no way of being wrong?
> There have been horses with the greying gene, where that expression does not start until that horse is in the early teens
> Have you seen both parents lately, and no sign of greying?


I do not know the age of his mother or father. Ill attach the photos of the parents for you to have a look at (not my photos). Visually i would say mom shows no signs of the grey gene, that's her in the picture with my boy in his baby coat. Dad is harder to tell but i dont think he shows it either if its there. 

If i had no info on the parents and only my youngster to go off of I would be guessing there was some grey in there too.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Mom does look like a roan. Well, spring should be interesting, LOl


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## tcopithorne (Oct 22, 2017)

Smilie said:


> Mom does look like a roan. Well, spring should be interesting, LOl


Yes I'm very much looking forward to spring with this guy


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