# Paint Conformation Critique



## ArabianGirl27

Just wondering what you guys thought of this stallion. I've been told a few things about him and wanted to see if the people of Horse Forum are in agreement.


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## Tryst

IMO he would make a nice gelding, though might have limited use due to his conformation.

Attractive head, nice length of neck which ties in low. Shoulder is upright with low point of shoulder, producing a closed shoulder angle. Flat withers, strong topline, shallow and weak hip, very post legged behind with small joints and is extremely upright on all pasterns. Light on bone, slightly back at the knee. He will most likely have limited soundness as a riding horse. I would never use this horse as a stallion.

Sorry if he is your horse, but that is what I see.


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## sarahfromsc

Don't like his legs.


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## SullysRider

Tryst nailed it on the head, definitely not stallion material. Will also add that his coupling looks long and weak.


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## Chopsticks

ditto on tryst's analysis. pretty color and head but....that's about it. From a confo perspective of course.


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## Tryst

Oh... And for what it is worth I commend the stallion owner for providing a nice conformation photo


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## paintedpastures

OP you have been posting threads about paint stallions critique confo & pedigrees. What exactly are you wanting in a stallion & maybe forum members can help advise you on pedigrees & conformation type to look for


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## ArabianGirl27

Thank you all!

Tryst- thank you for all that! lol, a lot of what you said is what I was thinking. I thought I liked him until I saw this picture, but I wasn't so sure after I saw it. I love him a lot, but his legs are my main concern. And no, he's not my horse. 

paintedpastures- wow, I hadn't noticed I had posted so much that people would notice. XD lol I'm thinking about breeding my Arabian this spring and have been interested in Arabian/Paint crosses for a while now, plus I like tobianos a lot. I'm basically looking for a stud who would complement my mare nicely, with good conformation, homozygous for the tobiano gene, not too tall or *too* stocky (though I love stockier horses), and a good pedigree if possible, lol. Oh, and a quiet, willing personality too. The horse I posted above, I love his head and neck, and I like how he's a tad less stocky than other Paints I've seen, simply because I think he might be a better match for my mare because of that. If all of that makes sense, lol. But I am concerned about his legs.

I have found another stud, but they didn't have confo pics up. I might be going to visit him sometime soon...maybe I'll see if I can take a picture then. He's gorgeous and I don't think he's too stocky either, and he's only around 15.1 or 15.2. The only thing is that his pedigree isn't as good as that of the other Paints I've seen, but I'll see if I like him when I go visit maybe.


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## Tryst

Do you have a conformation thread for your mare?


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## jaydee

I'm sure I can remember one of our Canadian members looking at a coloured warmblood stallion - the Arabian x warmblood are getting really popular in the part bred Arabian sport horse classes in the US
Studs like this one in the UK will ship semen to Canada
Solaris Sport Horses Homozygous Stallions At Stud


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## sarahfromsc

"Do you have a conformation thread for your mare?"

I do believe she does.


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## SullysRider

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-breeding/breeding-my-arabian-spring-301761/

Found this


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## ArabianGirl27

Uh, yeah, I did have an official conformation thread for my horse but most of the pictures I posted there are gone so ^ that's probably the best thread for that, lol. And yes, I know she's not perfect, but at least in my opinion I honestly believe she's breeding worthy, at least by appearance and temperament. And pedigree. (yes, lol, I do get defensive because I've had a lot of people tell me I shouldn't breed her...I don't want anyone to think I'm not thinking hard enough about it but I love this horse and I really do a foal from her)

jaydee- thank you. I might consider a warmblood, but it's not really the kind of cross I'm hoping for right now. It's not just colour I'm interested in; it's everything else as well. I've seen some really nice Paint/Arabs and it seems like most of them have good temperaments too, which is a big plus.  But thanks, can't go wrong with options, haha.


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## BlueSpark

not breeding material. don't like his legs, hip or how low his neck ties in, at all. I would not want to see this horse in work, as I'm sure he would break down quickly.


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## SullysRider

ArabianGirl27 said:


> Uh, yeah, I did have an official conformation thread for my horse but most of the pictures I posted there are gone so ^ that's probably the best thread for that, lol. And yes, I know she's not perfect, but at least in my opinion I honestly believe she's breeding worthy, at least by appearance and temperament. And pedigree. (yes, lol, I do get defensive because I've had a lot of people tell me I shouldn't breed her...I don't want anyone to think I'm not thinking hard enough about it but I love this horse and I really do a foal from her)
> 
> jaydee- thank you. I might consider a warmblood, but it's not really the kind of cross I'm hoping for right now. It's not just colour I'm interested in; it's everything else as well. I've seen some really nice Paint/Arabs and it seems like most of them have good temperaments too, which is a big plus.  But thanks, can't go wrong with options, haha.


In the end it is your choice, but if so many are saying don't breed her, maybe you should really think about why so many are saying that and perhaps change your mind? I agree she's not breeding worthy, and definitely don't pair her with this stallion!

ETA Don't mean to rehash things out, so just food for thought.


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## jaydee

Now I've seen your mare I honestly don't think that she's one I'd breed from myself - certainly not to cross with another Arabian or part Arabian unless you could find something that was a lot sturdier in its build and more compact than she is.
But then I prefer the Sport Horse Arabians and they are becoming a lot more popular


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## ArabianGirl27

Thanks to all!

SullysRider- Thank you, I do appreciate that.  I have been thinking a lot about the pros and cons of breeding, and I still haven't decided for sure. If I do, it'll be because I think it's worth it and that I have the resources to do so.


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## EliRose

Those are some scary legs O.O


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## GotaDunQH

ArabianGirl27 said:


> Thanks to all!
> 
> SullysRider- Thank you, I do appreciate that.  I have been thinking a lot about the pros and cons of breeding, and I still haven't decided for sure. If I do, it'll be because I think it's worth it and that I have the resources to do so.


I'm going to be a big downer here, and it's not my intention to insult you in anyway...but it's to present a dose of reality.

1. The studs you have been posting pics of, should all be geldings. And the fact that all of them have color, tells me you are going about this the wrong way...because you are breeding TWO individuals for color that should not be bred. Which leads me to.....

2. I've seen pics of your mare, and while she's cute...she is not breeding material. She has conformation issues that should not be passed on (her neck and weak hindend for one)....sorry, but that's a reality. Mares ANS stallions...need to be breeding-worthy from a performance, conformation, and marketability standpoint. Your mare does not have these attributes, nor do any of the colored studs you have posted. Which leads me to....

3. What you want to do is bad backyard breeding, and that leads to babies that are not marketable, which then leads to horses bought by kill buyers. Many people who have a mare that should never be bred....use the defense...."I'll keep the baby forever so it doesn't matter if it has issues and is not marketable". The HUGE problem with that is....life happens, and many times something in our lives comes when we have to sell our horses. There will be absolutely NO MARKET for what you are looking to create.....plain and simple. So then....you give the horse away, send it to an auction....and it ends up with a kill buyer.

JUST because you own a mare with a uterus, does not mean she's in this world to have a baby. A good broodmare worthy of having a baby are hard to find. But she's your mare and you'll do what you want, but I will call it like I see it even if it seems harsh, because I CARE about the horse industry...and what happens to the unwanted horses because someone thought their mare was "cute" to breed. The majority of unwanted horses are the result of the breeding of what you want to do with your mare.


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## GotaDunQH

ArabianGirl27 said:


> Just wondering what you guys thought of this stallion. I've been told a few things about him and wanted to see if the people of Horse Forum are in agreement.


Take the legs of this horse and put something with bone and shorter cannons....I would like him. He's built up top to be a performance horse, WP etc. But the legs....are like a halter horse's.....post legged in back, no substantial bone.


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## Yogiwick

Really nice at a glance, really not nice at a look. Nice color.


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## Yogiwick

My trainer breeds ArabXWarmbloods. _Fantastic_ athletes. If you want PM and I'll send you a link to her site, it's not much but you can see some excellent examples.

You told us about your physical goals for the stud but what are your goals for the foal? If you want more western type go with the paint, if you want more English type go with a warmblood (though the right paint may work too esp for HUS type stuff, but I would prefer the warmblood)


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## Yogiwick

Sorry, shouldn't post as I read-
I see you are set on Paints. I know some REALLY nice PaintxArabs, once of my heart horses is 1/4 Paint. She is ALL Arabian with flair but super, super, laid back at the same time. REALLY great horse. That said, you are not at all guaranteed temperament by breed. At all. PaintxArab can be a nice cross but don't do it unless that is what is suitable physically for what you want and what you want to do with it.

Also, I know you are set on it, but many educated, and professional, horse people here have counseled against breeding this mare. She is super cute but as far as breeding quality goes she is not there and I would go as far as to say not only is she not on the "to breed" list she is on the "not to breed list" as she has several rather serious issues, and I'm sure a lot of others will agree with me. Honestly, a good breeder would probably not breed to this mare and you risk having those same issues in her foal. If you don't even know what you are looking for in the very very basics of conformation you _really_ shouldn't be breeding. I know you want a foal from *this* mare, but I really think you need to think outside the box on this one. Please listen to the advise of those more experienced/knowledgeable than you.

Either way, you are going to do what you are going to do. If you are 100% going forward with this I would suggest posting a thread with good conformation pictures of your mare, (stating you WILL breed her and not to get on that topic as I know people will) and asking for help picking out a stallion with specifics on what you want in the foal. There are a LOT of nice "guaranteed color" (even if the foal has tobiano (for ex) it won't necessarily show it!) stallions out there. There are just a million more not so nice ones to weed through.


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## dbarabians

OP it is your mare and I am not one to tell anyone not to breed.
However those stallions you are considering have major conformational flaws.
IMO before you breed your mare or another in the future you need to educate yourself on good conformation.
As an arabian breeder IMO the breed needs to return to the type of arabian that is versatile, correct, with plenty of endurance and is also marketable.
There is a need in our breed for good quality horses.
That should be the focus of any responsible breeder.
Breeders must be ruthless about the quality of their breeding stock.
We must be aware of the faults as well as the strengths our horses are endowed with.
Any horse with more than one major flaw or even two small ones that affect thier future soundness is not to be considered for breeding IMO.
Emotional attachment has no place in the breeding shed.
Enjoy your mare. Give her a good quality life. IMO do not breed her. If you are so inclined find another mare with better conformation. In the long run you will be more satisfied with the results and your time and expense will be worth while. Shalom


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## Zexious

I'm curious about what your plans are for the baby? (I can't remember if this was answered elsewhere, as there have been a few threads posted by you lately xD I can't keep track of'um all x.x) That might help you choose one a suitable sire.

As far as this one... I think he'd make a lovely gelding. xD The search continues...


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## rbarlo32

There are a couple of nice Solaris horses up here both by Umenno who apparently has a lot of thoroughbred blood. I can't remember 100% but I thinks mares have to be approved by them. I was looking at their stallions when I was thinking of putting Molly in foal something put me off them but I can't remember what.


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## ArabianGirl27

Okay, I'm not going to argue my point on breeding because, well, been there, done that, BUT I do want to clarify that I wasn't really even considering this stallion when I posted this picture. I was at first because, as Yogiwick said, "Really nice at a glance." But then I took a closer look at him and a friend of mine pointed out that he's behind at the knee (I do recognize some aspects of bad conformation when I see it but I can't tell you if a horse is "behind at the knee" and some other things... unless it's really, really -- and I mean really really -- obvious). I posted him in this forum just for opinions. So don't worry, lol.

Second, I'm not planning on doing much with the foal. I'd like a second general riding horse for when Des gets older and can't be ridden anymore, and I'd rather she have her first (most likely her only) foal young because I know it's generally best that way. Anyway, as for the foal, I don't show. I'd like that option for him to be a good all-around horse though, for some light showing, maybe low level jumping and trail. What I do most is just ride around the farm and go on trail rides; so my dream is for this foal to be a quiet trustworthy trail riding companion that I can take pretty much anywhere. I know it doesn't always turn out that way (although it seems like most Paint/Arab crosses I've seen and heard of have that kind of temperament), and I know there will be training involved, but I helped bring Destiny to the point where I'll take her anywhere and I want to be a part of the bombproofing process of her foal. And if it turns out he's as crazy as Des was, or worse, that's okay too. So pedigree really is of no concern to me. The only reason I look at pedigrees is to add value, in case I ever DID have to sell. And with that in mind, small conformational defects don't bother me, personally, either, but I am looking for the best of what I can find for the same reason as stated above. 

Oh, and I ride western by the way. I only ride English when I'm too lazy to bring my western saddle to the barn, usually during the winter, lol.


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## rookie

I think dbarabians said it perfectly. There are a ton of arabian crosses on the market with less than stellar conformation and even less use. The original arabian was a loyal, hardy breed and all to often today its being raised as a hot house flower that is a hot mess. The world does not need another one of those crosses in my opinion. 

Your mare has conformation faults, they all do. The problem is that this stallion would only compound them. Small conformational defaults have a way of adding up to big vet bills. What is the point of breeding a horse that is unsound at 10 years old and can only be a pasture puff? The goal of conformation is not to breed for minor conformation faults. It to breed out those faults and end up with solid, sound and safe horses. 

If you are just looking for a steady eddy trail horse why not buy one on the ground already. You get guaranteed color, and at least would have an idea of what the temperament is of the foal.


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## dbarabians

arabiangirl its your mare do with her as you wish. I hope you get a good foal that you enjoy if you breed that mare.
Please however educate yourself on conformation.
Those stallions will most likely not be sound if ridden for very long.
I would not consider your mares faults as minor if she is a broodmare prospect.
Yes they all have flaws as you correctly stated.

IMO it is not responsible breeding if one does not consider the quality of life a foal may have.
No one can promise to care for a foal for the next 25 years. No one needs to care for a horse with limited use for that long either.
Sooner or later you will either want a horse that can stay sound or perhaps need to tighten your budget and reduce the number of horses you own. Then the fate of the foal is in question.

You may think the advise some have given you is harsh and judgmental . That is your right and since perception is reality and reality is up to the individual you are correct if you think so.
IMO the advice from the members here is sound and comes from breeders and owners with decades of experience.
Focus on that aspect and you may see our points.
I like your mare and I do like her pedigree. I do not see her as a broodmare prospect.
Good luck, whatever you decide. Shalom


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## Yogiwick

ArabianGirl27 said:


> Okay, I'm not going to argue my point on breeding because, well, been there, done that, BUT I do want to clarify that I wasn't really even considering this stallion when I posted this picture. I was at first because, as Yogiwick said, "Really nice at a glance." But then I took a closer look at him and a friend of mine pointed out that he's behind at the knee (I do recognize some aspects of bad conformation when I see it but I can't tell you if a horse is "behind at the knee" and some other things... unless it's really, really -- and I mean really really -- obvious). I posted him in this forum just for opinions. So don't worry, lol. *Nothing wrong with opinions, he is nice at a glance lol. Worth taking a look and..*
> 
> Second, I'm not planning on doing much with the foal. *That sounds like a reason not to have one lol, but I get what you mena.* I'd like a second general riding horse for when Des gets older and can't be ridden anymore, and I'd rather she have her first (most likely her only) foal young because I know it's generally best that way. *Sure, but then they will be close to the same age and will both be older at close to the same time. *Anyway, as for the foal, I don't show. I'd like that option for him to be a good all-around horse though, for some light showing, maybe low level jumping and trail. What I do most is just ride around the farm and go on trail rides; so my dream is for this foal to be a quiet trustworthy trail riding companion that I can take pretty much anywhere. *Nothing wrong with that, and you don't need to breed anything specific, though I definitely think that specifically something you buy not breed.*I know it doesn't always turn out that way (although it seems like most Paint/Arab crosses I've seen and heard of have that kind of temperament), and I know there will be training involved, but I helped bring Destiny to the point where I'll take her anywhere and I want to be a part of the bombproofing process of her foal. And if it turns out he's as crazy as Des was, or worse, that's okay too. *Really? ..*So pedigree really is of no concern to me. The only reason I look at pedigrees is to add value, in case I ever DID have to sell. *Sure, also good for checking for genetic diseases and stuff. *And with that in mind, small conformational defects don't bother me, personally, either, but I am looking for the best of what I can find for the same reason as stated above. *Of course, but in response to that specific statement.. I don't care if my pleasure horse toes in a little, however I won't make more of that defect simply because I don't mind it. Something that's "small" is frequently more major than you may believe. Also, no horse is perfect, the issue isn't that your mare has small conformational defects, it's that your mare has several, major, defects.*
> 
> Oh, and I ride western by the way. I only ride English when I'm too lazy to bring my western saddle to the barn, usually during the winter, lol. *OK but not super relevant to breeding *


My responses in bold. Not trying to argue the point, just responding to what you wrote.


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## paintedpastures

I would buy not breed:wink:,your mare has conformation issues as do the studs you have been picking out:-(. The fact you are wanting a homozygous paint stallion is making it harder too,as unfortunately their is very few quality ones out there,most were kept "whole" because of the ability to produce color but have little else going for them:shock:. 
If you do opt to buy, I know of a breeder that is retiring that has decent paint stallion & breeds APHA as well as Arabs they may have something:wink:


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## stevenson

you need to find a stud horse that has conformation.. and stop looking for just color.
If you want color, go to an auction and purchase a nice built colored foal. 
I think Dun stated an obvious truth about the both horses.


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## FoxRidgeRanch

I would pass too, his legs are very posty, no angles at all.


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## Zexious

So I have a question for those more experienced with breeding...

For those of us (I'm one of them xD) who aren't very good with conformation, can you go to your trainer or vet and pay them to pick out a stud for you? If that's an option (I don't know why it wouldn't be, for the right price) maybe that's something OP should look into?


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## dbarabians

I would find a local breeder that might mentor you. In the mean time study conformation. If you have no clue about it IMO breeding is not an option.
Conformation and an honest evaluation of both sire and dam is where the process needs to begin. Shalom


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## GotaDunQH

^ agree with DB! Becoming a student of conformation is invaluable....and because the horse industry has changed so much and constantly, you also need to be a student of MODERN conformation. In other words, according to disciplines and sub-disciplines...what conformation lends itself to those disciplines.

Eg; what conformation works for a jumper, won't be a conformation that works for cutting.

The mare owner also needs to be as objective as possible when looking at their mare's conformation.

Asking a trainer....if you know a trainer that specializes in your discipline, there is no reason you can't pick their brains on the studs they like.


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## Yogiwick

The Horse Conformation Handbook
by Heather Smith Thomas

Check that out, and yes, having someone to mentor you would be fantastic. If I were picking out a stud I would definitely go to my trainer for advice. I don't see why someone else couldn't help you (vet or whoever) though it's not the norm.


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## JDeeds08

I've grown up owning, breeding, and selling horses. At this stage in the game, with as many questions and uncertainties that you have, breeding your mare would not be the wise move. Have you ever worked with broodmares and foals? Even the mares personality can change when she is heavily pregnant/after the foal is born. Maidens are particularly difficult because you have no idea how they will react after birth; they could be great mothers or it could be as bad as rejecting the foal. I guess my thoughts are that there are so many horses out there that need homes. I think what would be best for you is to go to clinics and breed shows where you can see what is winning and even talk to owners or trainers. Knowledge is power, especially in an industry where people will just take your money because they know you are not highly educated, yet. Plus, breeding a mare is expensive and you aren't really guaranteed anything in the end. You may lose the foal, you may lose the mare and foal, the foal may come out with none of the characteristics you were hoping for...Just shop around and find that spotted half Arab of your dreams (with some trusted help) Good luck!


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## paintedpastures

If you go with Buying here is local breeder raising arabs & APHA horses. They are retiring,so selling off most of their horses:wink:
2013 Pinto Filly by Painted Coos- Reg. Pending | livestock for sale | Edmonton | Kijiji


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## natisha

I have mares but when I wanted a baby I bought from a breeder. All the hard work was already done (breeding, foaling etc.) & I could see what I was getting.
Sure I paid a bit more but someone else took all the risk & did the work so they earned it.


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