# Has my mare got Down Pasterns? Confirmation Help



## smrobs

Does "down pasterns" mean the same thing as a dropped fetlock? I'm seeing dropped fetlocks on her hind legs but I'm unsure whether it might be something like DSLD causing it or whether it's just a part of her conformation.

No offense to whatever farrier you've got working on her now, but he's not doing her any favors. Her toes are really long on her hind feet and I'd be willing to bet there's some flaring going on there.


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## Elana

Agree that she might have DSLD as noted above. Seems to be showing up in the hind pasterns if that is what it is. 

She is a little steep in the shoulderbut her point of shoulder is high and the angle at point of shoulder seems quite nicely open. She is quite straight through the hock. Her back has a little roach to it. Her front cannon bones seem light. 

That being said she fits together well. The last picture she looks a bit thin or under muscled along her back. 

Those hind pasterns are a concern.. and if she has DSLD.. well that is just really too bad.


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## SnowCowgirl

I can't speak as to her pasterns, but what a cool colour!

Elana, can you elaborate on what you mean by the "angle at point of shoulder"?


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## Elana

Draw a line from the elbow to the point of shoulder. Now draw another line from the point of shoulder to the top of withers along the scapula. The angle at point of shoulder should be 90 degrees. This horse could stand to have the point of shoulder a little higher and the shoulder lay back more. I have drwan them in.

The angle from the elbow to the point of shoulder should be 45 degrees from level and the angle of the scapula from point of shoulder to tip of wither should be 45 degrees from horizontal. Where the two meet should be 90 degrees. 

Some disciplines like these angles to vary from the ideal to make the job the horse does a bit eaiser.


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## makk

The smaller photo at the show is the most recent of the three where she's 4yo, the one on the right is when she was about 3 1/2yo and the bottom photo is when i first got her as a 3yo. she'd never had a trim yet and she'd never been on hard feed and was in a bad paddock, hense why she's in that condition with bad feet  she's come a long way!

(that tiny bit of roach is no longer there either, i think that was just because she was in such bad condition and skinny)

What's DSLD?


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## WSArabians

makk said:


> What's DSLD?


There's a link in SMRobs post.


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## Chevaux

I'm just curious - is she comfortable to ride?


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## 4horses

It does look like she has DSLD. What a shame. Does she have thickening in her pasterns? It looks like her left hind is enlarged in the first picture. 

There are only about 3 or 4 scientific/research articles on DSLD. Very very little research. They really need to find a genetic test for it, but last I heard they haven't had any luck pinpointing the genes yet. 

There is no treatment. Wedge pads can actually make it worse. The best thing you can do is keep her toes rolled back (mustang roll) and don't let her hooves get overgrown or too long. Keep her comfortable for as long as you can. Some horse will remain sound for a few years after diagnosis, others develop multiple health issues and decline quickly. 

They did one small study on the effects of exercise and suggested that mild but consistent exercise and controlling the horses weight (low sugar/starch diet) may help slow progression. 

Now there is a lady (Dr. Kellen) selling Jiaogulan (a herb) for it, but the research supporting its use is very slim (no horse or human studies), and I have a suspicion that the lady selling the herb is the same one who started the yahoo group for DSLD. I bought some for my mare, and was not impressed as it was extremely dusty and I really didn't see any difference. 

It is related to Marfans syndrome and ehlers danlos syndrome in people. The only treatment in people is the drug Losartan which is experimental. Again no studies have been done using this drug on horses. I think it would be cost prohibitive ($100 a month?). I really wish they would to a clinical trial on it, as the disease is progressive and fatal in horses. 

My 20 yr old mare was diagnosed a year ago with this. The original vet missed the diagnosis and said it was a minor suspensory sprain. Since I now know what to look for I can find DSLD everywhere. I'm assuming it is common and most people just don't recognize it. I know one saddlebred with it (age 17 who is hard to maintain weight and extremely lame). I pray my mare doesn't get that bad. Right now she is lame at trot/canter, but comfortable at the walk. I know one Paso who has it, but is still sound for the time being (15-18 yrs old) and goes riding every week. 

The early onset cases usually are the worst. I think, like the human form, there are different types (6 types for people with Ehlers danlos). Again different types haven't been identified in horses, but some horses have a very early onset, and others don't have symptoms til their late teens/early 20's. 

I wish they knew more. It seemed like something "triggered" my mare's symptoms. One day I came out and her left hind leg swelled way up, a few weeks later, her right leg tripled in size. She was just standing around in her small paddock on rest. That is when I suspected something was really wrong as it was both hinds. So far the swelling has gone way down but not away as there is thickening of the ligaments. She has not had any more major swellings like that first onset. Not yet anyway. 

I don't know if you are working your horse or if she is lame, but I would stick to walk-trot, no tight circles, no jumps, no uneven ground, no deep sand. You want to avoid anything that will stress her suspensory ligaments, as if they get any tears in them, they will not heal properly. Just normal wear and tear, even just standing on rest will cause them to continue to fail. Mild, consistent (3x weekly) exercise is suggested as that can help strengthen the ligaments and muscle attachments but is not a cure. 

It is just a question of how long you can maintain her and how fast the disease manifests. You could have several years together yet, or just a few months. There is no way of knowing. 

Supplementing proper levels of zinc, and copper may help, as will avoiding too much iron. Some people have their horse's blood tested for excess iron, as iron overload may be related. (Again this hasn't been proven). 

If you know her bloodlines you should post them, as it is probably genetic. The Yahoo DSLD group has a large listing of bloodlines that are affected.


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## Elana

DSLD is Degenerative Suspensory Ligament Desmitis.

The ligaments deteriorate and the fetlock drops and eventually the horse has to be put down. It appears to be genetically linked.


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## SnowCowgirl

this is so interesting... makk, if this is indeed what she has, I'm so sorry  she is such a cute mare and definitely one that I would have brought home with me any day.

to be honest even after all the talk on this post I still have a hard time picking out exactly what is wrong with her hinds that everyone else is seeing.. I mean, I see it, but I doubt I'd notice it on another horse. Are there any other photo examples people could post? what a scary thing, and so sad!


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## existentialpony

Snow: Typically if anything, the hind pastern angles should be equal or a hint steeper than the front pasterns. To see them dropped that low suggests either a conformational defect (which might be coped-with), or that the suspensory ligaments are compromised.

In DSLD, "breakdown" of the suspensory ligaments in a bilateral pattern causes the ligaments to lose elasticity over time-- that is, there's less recoil (going back to original length/tension after flexion). Eventually, the fetlock can be horizontal-to or touching the ground.

I would be interested in seeing a video of this horse to see just how much give her hind pasterns have. OP, when your horse is walked or trotted away from you, do you see her fetlocks hit the ground?

Best of luck with your mare. :-(


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## makk

Chevaux, she is very comfortable to ride, smooth trot, rocking canter. and she picks up her feet too, never drags them. i was planning on training her in dressage and hacking and having her for kids or small adults to compete on her and use her (im a bit too tall to do anything with her really).

In the 2 years i've owned her she hasn't progressed and it hasn't gotten worse. in some photo's and when she stands up square it doesn't look as bad as it does in other photo's.. She's been on and off in work since i've had her.

She's NEVER gone lame! not once! which is also why im confused =/

had a different vet out a few days ago doing her Hendra Vaccination and now i have 2 possible ages for her.. (her branding looks like an 8 (as in 2008) but then kinda looks like it's been branded over with a 2 (as in 2002), so im screwed on knowing how old she really is. one vet says she's around 5yo, and the other says she's aroun 8-10.... -.-

4horses, she has a raised scar on the front of her hind left fetlock that does give it that effect but both her back pasterns are slightly swallen (kinda like their just filled with a bit of fluid) but have been since i got her. and they've never flared up or gotten worse with or without work.. 

Is there a chance that it could stay how it is? because it hasn't changed when she was in full work (in a sand arena) and doing some jumping? 

If you look at the pictures and draw a straight line down from the front of her pasterns to her hoof, her weight is still bearing on her hoof at the heel, not completely behind it...


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## makk

Thanks SnowCowGirl, i went out to a property with a friend to look at a (pretty much wild) herd of about 60 horses, and i saw her and couldn't take my eyes off her. i wasn't looking for another horse, and i sure didn't need one, but there was just something about her that drew me in and she has such a good temperment (i was planning on breeding her for kids pony's for her colour, tempermant and size. she would've been perfect!).

Ii've taken her to a halter class (it was her first ever show so i only entered her in the one class) she was with 2 other horses and came first.. so unless the judge didn't see it because she didn't have one leg under her (making it noticable), or it's not as bad as these photo's make it look when she's not got a leg pushed forward under herself..


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## existentialpony

Did your veterinarian note a thickening or hardening of the suspensory ligaments upon palpation? Is there a vet that could ultrasound her to look for the typical poor fiber pattern associated with DSLD?

DSLD does normally present with obscure lameness issues. If she has been sound and happy to work, is possible that your mare just has a conformational abnormality that you should be conscientious-of. It's very difficult to say. I would have a veterinarian look at her with the appropriate equipment to better diagnose her situation!


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## ImpulsiveLucy

Well in my opinion.. She's thick in the neck, like REALLY thick in the neck! Her neck comes out of her withers similiar to how a morgan's neck would. She's steep shouldered, but it's long. And she appears very large in the chest- good thing! Croup wise she looks good. Her body is balanced out size wise, but she lacks the shoulder to really sell it. She is most definitely post-legged! Appears to stand under herself in the front. And yes she looks like she has some major issues in her one fetlock. Musclewise she could use some more, but that comes with time! 

GORGOUES coloring!!! I love it!!! What is that called exactly?? I have never seen anything like it! 

Oh, and try using clear polish on her hooves instead of black. That is if you are showing her as an appy... It's illegal to do that.. I learned the hard way  

4Horses said plenty about the disease. Just thought I'd touch on her conformation!


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## loosie

I think it is extremely presumptuous to diagnose DSLD online, let alone from only a couple of pix. The horse is a bit low in the croup, camped under, hind feet more sloping than fronts, so something is going on, but who can possibly know with so little info if it's degenerative diseases or such. Could be a problem in the sacro-iliac area, could be a range of things. I'd consult a bodyworker(veterinary chiro or such) & a *good* hoofcare practitioner.


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## Clayton Taffy

I think a good farrier or a proper trim would help a lot.
It looks as if the heels are run under quite a bit.

She is darling, what a pattern!


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## 4horses

Some horses can have DSLD and be sound. Secondary arthritis/ringbone may become more of an issue than the ligament drop. A horse can have DSLD and be sound for years. My mare probably has had it for years before she started showing symptoms and even then the first vet who did ultrasounds missed it. 

If it is DSLD- you want to pay close attention to her ankles and look for swelling/thickening of the ligaments. It is recommended to take ultrasounds and measure the width of the suspensory's for a true diagnosis. If there is swelling in both hinds I would be suspicious of DSLD even if one leg is worse than the other. 

As the pasterns drop the legs will become more and more straight/ or camped under. So a horse that starts out with normal conformation will loose it as the disease progresses. 

Here is a picture of advanced DSLD- notice how the hind legs don't have any bend in them at all. You can almost draw a straight line from the stifle, hock and ankle. 
http://www.naturalhorsetrim.com/Tree_DSLD_or_not1.jpg

And the swelling that eventually comes with it:
http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj36/djmurray7/ltravis013.jpg

If you suspect she might have DSLD, I would modify her work load, as any tears (even micro-tears) in her suspensories will not heal normally- even if she is sound now. Dressage/jumping would probably not be a good idea. 

It is possibly she will stay sound for years and it might not even cause any issues until her late teens/20's, or she could get worse quickly. Again no way of knowing. Every case I have seen has been different as far as age of onset, progression, and degree of lameness.


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