# Horse kicking out while riding



## ducky123 (May 27, 2014)

Is the daughter doing the flawless lunging, or an adult?


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

IMO, said horse has your daughters number. Do you not have a trainer who can help her with this? This will likely not get better without help, since now the confidence has gone from your daughter. So, if you do not already have someone, please get someone to help with this. This horse, IMO needs its "butt whooped"-figure of speech people, so please don't get all hateful on me. My guess is that in the beginning the horse started doing small things, got away with them and here you are. I would also guess that your daughter would never think of any sort of discipline. Horse knows that it does this, and is done and gets its way shortly after. If I knew I could go to work, make a rude comment and be sent home but still have a job and not be reprimanded I likely would.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

More info about your daughter? Horse? Experience levels & what experienced help you have? Yes, it could be a bit/mouth/hands on the reins problem. It is very common for that sort of problem to happen due to pain(see 'suddenly aggressive' thread), but since it seems you've been reasonably diligent in trying to rule it out, I'm thinking it's likely a training issue too. Agree basically with Frankn.

Horses(and all animals, including people, for that matter) learn to do what works for them & quit doing what doesn't work. Horses(& many people) aren't comfortable not having a good leader, and they will try to take that role if the rider isn't filling it.

My guess is that the horse took a couple of months to get to know your daughter & what she can & can't expect, then had a go at calling the shots, to see what would work. Or perhaps your daughter _was_ a good leader, but something happened(perhaps very minor then) after a couple of months that upset the apple cart. Perhaps the horse just got a fright the first time, kicked out & found things were easier from it.

So whatever the reason, the horse did a little 'pigroot'(what us Aussies for some reason call that sort of buck/kick), and it worked for the horse. It upset your daughter's seat and likely she stopped asking for whatever it was the horse didn't like. It worked, so the horse tried it again, getting 'better' with practice. 

So before she continues to get even better & more confirmed in her view that this is the 'right' behaviour(and your daughter gets more 'practice' at feeling insecure, inadequate), she needs to be ridden by someone that can ensure this behaviour NEVER works again. 

I'm not big on punishment personally, but as this behaviour has had some time to become established, is dangerous and as you want the horse safer for someone lacking confidence, the rider may want to 'strengthen' the lessons that this behaviour is now definitely The Wrong Answer by ensuring it also has unpleasant consequences for the horse. 

*These lessons won't necessarily or automatically transfer to your daughter, who the horse already has a history of the 'bad' behaviour working for. Especially if daughter is still lacking confidence. So while the horse is being 'retrained', daughter would do well to have some 'retraining' too, to regain & 'practice' her confidence on an 'easier' horse, and learn and practice some tactics for dealing with her horse, before she goes back to her. Then she can have some lessons on her horse, in a situation she is likely to start back safely and effectively.


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## WildAtHeart (Jul 17, 2013)

If they horse is just being a twit, your daughter getting off is just reinforcing the bucking. I understand why she gets off, no fun having your horse work against you instead of with you. 

Does the horse do it during a particular movement? (ex: when turning or during the canter)


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

As you say a chiro has looked at her taking it that she is not in pain but this has become a habit. 
The horse needs a stronger rider who acts like they are a total novice so it encourages her to take advantage and th moment she raises her back legs she needs a darn good whack, kicking forward hard and fast ith a couple more wallops thrown in for good measure. Then go back to riding like a numpty and doing whatever before she bucked to see if she does it again.


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## ladybug14 (Jun 2, 2015)

both...her and myself.


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## ladybug14 (Jun 2, 2015)

The first month we got her we spent with a trainer at thier barn learning together. This started at the trainers just before our month was up (I think this horse is smarter then I first thought Trainer rode and repremanded a few times...but she kept at it. Thats when we went into health check mode, taking care of teeth, saddle, vet etc... then the kicking out continued after that till now. My daughter and I lunge, me more I guess though..Yup, Ill get my daughter to do more. Daughter is 9 adn been in lessons since 4- this is her step up from her snotty pony that she did EVERY event possible with. My daughter immediatly backs and turns her in a circle when the kick outs happen...but Im thinking your all correct..I think this mare has our number and needs a better "schooling" when this happens.. Im looking into having her rode by a trainer as we speak adn hopefully we can get this stopped. She really is a super mare otherwise. Thanks everyone!


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## BarrelracingwithSkipper (Sep 25, 2014)

My guess is the horse is being a brat and is learning that she can get away with 

it. I have dealt with a horse before who's owner had been in a bad accident and 

lost her confidence. The horse learned that when she spooked the rider would 

immediately get off. So the horse would always spook right away when her rider 

would get on and then since the rider didn't have a lot of confidence she would 

get off. So the horse learned that when she didn't want to ride to spook and she 

would be put back out with her hay and friends. Once I got on the horse she 

tried to spook once and I rode her through it and kept riding for a while until she 

realized I wasn't getting off until I decided. With me consistently riding her and 

her learning she cant just spook and then be done with she has stopped 

spooking, and become a really well behaved horse.

So if your daughter is still a little bit nervous to ride her through it try and put 

someone else on her horse for a little while to get it out of the habit.


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## StormWolf68 (May 7, 2015)

Depending on the horse, I've always done a few things.

My mare used to kick whenever I'd ask for the canter, or whenever she felt that we've been cantering long enough.

Whenever she'd kick, I'd:

A: Give one sharp tap with the crop behind the girth. She's sensitive so it was barely even a tap, but it was enough for her to know she did wrong
B: Stop and back her
OR,
C (For if she does it during the canter, not going into it): MAKE her keep going. YOU are in charge and you demand that that pony continue working.

Now that she's seen that there is nothing she can do to get out of working, she canters as soon as I ask. Actually, now she gets a little mad if we trot or walk to long withOUT cantering! Funny how that works.

Now, it may depend on the horse. I know horses that don't react at all to a crop, and some that'll spook and take off at the sight of one. I also don't know where she kicks. 

Otherwise, a trainer may be a good place to start. It sounds like now she's learned that "If I kick enough times, I won't have to work any more"


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## ladybug14 (Jun 2, 2015)

This is great info- Thank you! I was feeling a bit hopeless, at the end of my ideas...this has given me hope


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## TessaMay (Jul 26, 2013)

I'm always more inclined to make the horse continue cantering until they behave well for at least a full lap or two around the ring. If your daughter can't ride through her bucks though, you'll need someone else to do this.


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## StormWolf68 (May 7, 2015)

ladybug14 said:


> This is great info- Thank you! I was feeling a bit hopeless, at the end of my ideas...this has given me hope


One thing I've found that was helpful in getting my mare to stop is to make the right thing easy, wrong thing hard. Usually they learn pretty fast that "It's easier for me to just do what they want than to fight it and kick" if you put them through a little hell for misbehaving.

Good luck!


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

Saddle fit? Bit issues? Knows who is running the show? Girth too tight or too far forward? Burr in pad? Saddle has something wrong with it?

Bad hands? Bad seat?

Video of this child riding would help. As well as conformation photos, and saddle fit photos.


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## ladybug14 (Jun 2, 2015)

Palomine- as I said, we have been over most of what you mentioned..except for girth too tight, Ive had saddle fitter out twice and changed saddles twice  Believe me, I pick every tiny bit of anything off the pad AND cinch thinking that could be it too.. She is 9- but been in lessons for a few years so seat is good but hands are now a bit more "nervous" when asking for even a bit of speed off the walk/jog. Had her teeth done and am riding in a plane loose ring snaffle as we are working on her collection.


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## BarrelracingwithSkipper (Sep 25, 2014)

TessaMay said:


> I'm always more inclined to make the horse continue cantering until they behave well for at least a full lap or two around the ring. If your daughter can't ride through her bucks though, you'll need someone else to do this.


 
Yes I totally agree with everything said here, you have to ride the horse until she submits to you. Once she submits ride her around another half a lap or a lap then reward her. If your daughter cant do it you should find some one else soon before the horse gets worse.


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## arduke (Feb 17, 2010)

My gelding does the same thing if he hasn't been under saddle or cantered in a while or if I've let someone ride him that isn't forgiving in the hands. I have now corrected this problem so many times I've stopped letting anyone but me canter him. For him it starts with someone being tight with their hands so he tightens his back. He gives them a warning which they ignore. After about the second time it turns into you ask him to canter he bucks. With him, he used to be in pain in his back so he tenses expecting pain when he's pulled on but now he is actually the causing the pain by tensing his back because his back can't absorb any of the shock of the rider. He has also learned that if he does this he doesn't have to canter which he doesn't like to do due to past trainer and past ignored pain.

The way I have come to fix this is before I get on I lunge him making canter both ways making sure he does so relaxed. Then, I hop on. Usually, all I do with him canter on the day I've decided to fix the problem. So I ask for the canter, while cantering I stay in half seat trying to come down as lightly in the saddle as possible. This part is very important because his back is so tight he won't be absorbing any of the shocking of my butt hitting saddle and that concussion will only make the problem worse. Then when he kicks out I stand up in my stirrups and move my butt forward so I don't hit the saddle. I keep my butt out of the way for two reasons: one so I don't hurt his back and two so I can easily absorb the kick out so I'm not unseated for the next part(most of the time you are unseated by a buck or kick out is because of the saddle pushing your butt out. I have found this especially true of hunt seat saddles). My hands during this entire thing are down by his withers nice and soft(if I do get unseated by an especially large kick out I will put my hands on his neck so that I don't lose my balance). So when I come down after the kick out, I switch my seat to being deep and driving and dig my heals pushing to go directly back into a canter. Coming down with that seat is very important because it tells the horse that you are confident, he did nothing to unbalance and that he is to keep moving. As soon as he is cantering again I change back to the light half seat. 

I continue this until he canters around the arena without bucking then walk and repeat. On that day I don't leave until we canter around both directions without kicking out. On this day I don't care about his speed or even if he canters relaxed. Usually the next day I prepare to do the same thing with him but he'll usually only throw in a half kick out the first time asked to canter on this day I usually start circling and mixing it up to work on relaxation. I don't try to sit his canter until I feel him start to relax his back which sometimes takes a while. The more relaxed his back gets the easier it is to sit his canter.

This is just my experience. It may be something to try since you said your horse was still doing it after being with the trainer and that you have already ruled out health issues. I have found that fear of pain is just as powerful as actual pain. In my horse's case he actually causes the pain he fears is going to happen.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I do agree that it sounds like the horse has gotten your daughter's number, esp since the horse was 'rewarded 'for kicking out (daughter got off and end of work session)
What does concern me some, is that the horse started doing this while still at the trainers.
This either means to me, an incompetent trainers, or some pain issue


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

^I missed that very relevant point. If it started at the trainers, then I'd want it to be fixed at the trainers...


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