# How to engage hind quarters?



## ohmyitschelle (Aug 23, 2008)

Sorry no comment from me just interested in learning about this also.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

You can try doing turnbacks on the rail. Ride about 6' off the rail then turn him in to the rail to reverse direction. He'll stop the first time and that's ok, just urge him to complete the direction change. As you do, move off the rail again. As you do these turns the rail helps keep them tight and he has to get his hindquarters underneath and he'll start lifting his front end. He'll likely lose it after a few strides but don't forget he has a lot of muscles to retrain.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

Gallop On said:


> So, how do I engage a horses hindquarters


Start with half halts


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## Spirit Lifter (Apr 23, 2012)

All speeds with the horse keeping his head down also helps. Keep the reins at your knees and when the horse releases pressure with his head in the correct position release pressure. Mine learned this in a day. This is a ring exercise that I don't make her do on the trail. She needs her head on the trail.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

A false headset is not hind end engagement.

The energy needs to come from the hind end, asked for by the rider's legs and seat.

That energy is contained and recycled back using the hands, seat, and legs throught the half halt.

We can talk about this until we are blue in the face but doing this requires a lot of feel that can only be developed by riding with a trainer that knows what he or she is doing.

Run away from anyone whose first thing out of the mouth is headset.


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## Gallop On (May 1, 2011)

This is Rusty engaged, but notice, his head set is still high... so, when I have his hind quarters engaged, how do I get the headset? This is his natural extended trot, and head set.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

Gallop On said:


> This is Rusty engaged, but notice, his head set is still high... so, when I have his hind quarters engaged, how do I get the headset? This is his natural extended trot, and head set.


A) You forgot to post or link to a picture or video.

B) Why does headset matter? Is he using his back correctly or not? THAT is what is important.

This is an extreme example, using a super-ultra-fit world champion horse (Totilas). Look at his reaching hind leg. Now look at his "headset". Do you see that there is not necessarily a connection between an engaged hind end and the position of the head? The bulging topline muscles tell you all you need to know about how this horse is using his back.










I will grant you that the average horse cannot carry himself like a Grand Prix horse. In that case encouraging the use of the back is done by teaching the horse to seek contact with the bit and maintain a neck position that keeps the poll at the highest point. 

Teaching a horse to accept the bit comes with patience, firm but elastic contact, a comfortable bit, impulsion, and the feel and timing to know when to use the hands to receive the energy from the hind end and when to soften to recycle that energy. Can't be learned on the internet. Gotta ride with someone who knows how to teach it.


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## Gallop On (May 1, 2011)

^That work?


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## Gallop On (May 1, 2011)

mildot said:


> A) You forgot to post or link to a picture or video.
> 
> B) Why does headset matter? *Is he using his back correctly or not? * THAT is what is important.
> 
> ...


I believe in that photo he _is_ using his back and hid quarters correctly. Alright, I suppose head set doesnt matter all to much, IF they are using their hind.



> In that case encouraging the use of the back is done by teaching the horse to seek contact with the bit and maintain a neck position that keeps the poll at the highest point.


 Your saying that engaging his hindquarters was done by teaching the horse to look for contact on the bit, and the keep a good neck position, with a high poll, and that makes engagement?


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## Almond Joy (Dec 4, 2011)

I've always wanted to know this! And to keep constant pressure with the horses mouth and teach them to respond to it, would lunging with a surcingle and sidereins help?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Gallop On said:


> Your saying that engaging his hindquarters was done by teaching the horse to look for contact on the bit, and the keep a good neck position, with a high poll, and that makes engagement?


I think if you read or learn about dressage, they say you create collection by working from "back to front". So, yeas, you focus on the engagement of the hind end, but you must have a "front" to work toward. If you dont' have some kind of connection to the bit, the energy you ask the horse to create with his hind legs, turns into only forward propulltion, such as a cart horse or a race horse will push or fall forward and only the speed of the race horse, or the harness of the cart horse keeps them from falling on their face.

So, yes, you do need to have a connection to the front end, i.e. the bit , in order to make engagement of thee hind become collection.

You can, however, have the horse work on engageing his hind end without particularly holding the front end back. 
The two things that come to mind are: acceleration and bend.

and in fact, they are almost one and the same.

So, acceleration requires the horse to push from behind. Acceleration being a change of gait or speed within the gait. I believe this can include downward transitions, too. But to start with, asking the horse to really "leap" forward , like from walk to brisk trot, jog to brisk trot, walk to trot.
and so on. To get that kind of "leap" into the new gait, you have to apply a little rein in a half halt to get the horse "compressed " and thinking back onto his haunches, then ask for forward! and don't accept a blah transition. get a "snap" forward. Do this a lot.

Bend means anything that has the horse stepping under with his inside hind leg, and by under it is under the middle of his barrel line, so you look for some crossing over of that inside leg. this makes him take more weight onto that inside leg, and more weight onto the rear is what engagement is all about.

Do hindquarte disengagement, and the rollback that Saddlebag talked about. Back up. Ride squares and make the corners crisp. work him over small cavaletti, and this can be done on the lunge. go up and down hills, side pass over small logs. all things that promote that under/crossover step of the hind leg.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

Gallop On said:


> Alright, I suppose head set doesnt matter all to much, IF they are using their hind.


Enlightment is good. :wink:



Gallop On said:


> Your saying that engaging his hindquarters was done by teaching the horse to look for contact on the bit, and the keep a good neck position, with a high poll, and that makes engagement?


How do I Ride a Half Halt?


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## Gallop On (May 1, 2011)

Saddlebag said:


> You can try doing turnbacks on the rail. Ride about 6' off the rail then turn him in to the rail to reverse direction. He'll stop the first time and that's ok, just urge him to complete the direction change. As you do, move off the rail again. As you do these turns the rail helps keep them tight and he has to get his hindquarters underneath and he'll start lifting his front end. He'll likely lose it after a few strides but don't forget he has a lot of muscles to retrain.


A little confused by this... so, ride parallel with the rail, 6' away from it. Then, turning him into the rail, reverse directions? So, say your riding straight down a line, parallel with the rail. The rail is over on your right. When you go to reverse directions you turn the horses head to the right, and turn him around?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

yes. you kind of use the fence to force him to turn around 180 degrees without allowing him to move foreward much. it forces him to pivot on his hind end more. it gets his weight back on his hind and prepares him to "launch" into the new direction.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

Upward transitions are good for engagement of the hind end, but if done without a connection from the bit to the hand the horse ends up hollowing out in the back.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

You can do all the fancy exercises in the world, but if the horse won't go forward, you will never get any kind of engagement of the hind end or swing over the back.
The photo of your arab shows a horse that has hollowed and stiffened its back, and is flinging its legs around - a leg mover. My new horse has a tendency to move that that when at liberty, put him in side reins or get on him, and his whole way of going changes, with his back actually swinging. 

If your horse is dragging his hind legs, he's not going forward, simple as that 
So right now, all I would be doing is developing a snappier reaction to your 'go' aid. Break it all right down to the absolute basics - stop, go and turn. Because when it comes down to it, all riding disciplines are based on those three fundamentals, and if you don't get them perfect, there will be holes in your training the whole way through.

Get your horse snappy off your leg, willing to go forward. You should be doing a million transitions every ride, and have the horse go forward, go REALLY forward, and then come straight back, right on your aids. 
When the horse will willingly go forward, only then can you start refining your aids and exercises. Right now, on a horse that won't go forward, working on side passing, turns on the rail etc. is all going to be detrimental to the training and will make him think backwards. Just - go - forward!


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## JustAwesome (Jun 22, 2011)

You can still get engagement if the horse isn't 'forward', how do you think they do it in western!


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Different disciplines Holly, english engagement/collection is not the same as western engagement/collection. In western you don't ask a horse to work over its back into the bridle and shift a lot of weight onto its hindquarters to lift its forhand and piaffe


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## JustAwesome (Jun 22, 2011)

Western horses who are worked correctly aren't bashing on the forehand!


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Ok Holly. I never said that. But ok.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

this might become a discussion of English vs Western meanings of engagement.

What I have read about the basic meaning of engagement means that the horse shifts his center of gravity back to the hind end a bit, and to do this, he must lower his hind a bit, which entail both bending the hocks and engagning the abdominal muscles that bring the leg up and foward.

Those are engaged when doing pivots, rollbacks, jumping, climbing hills and more, but not very much engaged at all in WP jogs or lopes. the horse might be reasonalbly balanced , calm and flexed to the bit, but he cannot technically be engaged untill the hocks bend more and the muscles of the belly/core of the horse contract.

but, here is something I found from "Sustainable Dressage", a very good website for graphically presented info.









Actively jerking the hindleg up but
not placing it very forward.

In competition we often hear comments on how active a horse is behind. That activity is usually the "pulling up" of the hocks as the hindlegs leave the ground. Some horses even show a jerking action with the hindlegs, as they are lifted to be protracted. This gesture is quite spectacular and impressive, but it does not impress everyone. Especially not me. 








Bent pushing hock.
When a horse actively pushes forward with the hindlegs, instead of pulling himself forwards with the frontlegs, he does this with slightly bent hocks and engaged (tilted) croup as the hindlegs are grounded. 








Straight pushing
hock.
In the trot, for example, the left hindleg is supporting/pushing, while the right hindleg is being protracted. The movement of the lifted and protracted hindleg is fully dependent on the quality of work of the supporting hindleg. If the supporting hindleg is weak at catching the weight upon landing, the supporting phase will be hurrided, so that the grounded hindleg will come into a pushing position as soon as possible. In the pushing position of the hindleg, the hindleg straightens and pushes the body forwards. But what it does the most is pushing the croup up. In this upward bounce of the hindquarters, the lifted hindleg will easily be jerked up and forward. Usually not as much forward as one would wish. 








Bent landing hock.

The hindlegs thus do not support as much as one would want. Instead they push the croup up, and jerk the hindlegs up with the croup. The haunches are not bent, the pelvis is not tucked, the small of the back is flat and that means that the hindquarters are not engaged. To engage the horse needs to use his hip benders and his abs to pull the bottom of the pelvis forward. Some of these muscles are the same muscles that pull the hindlegs forward to be placed well in under the body of the horse and the same as will stabilize the supporting and bent hindleg so that it supports the bodyweight over the hindlegs.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Reread that and it is pretty confusing. It made more sense int he context of the website

::: Sustainable Dressage - Collection & Its Evasions - True Collection - What It Is and How to Achieve It :::


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