# 11 y/o TWH gelding



## Britt

On the same day that we buried my beoved 14-3 hand TWH mare Joyace, I became the new owner of a huge 16-2 hand TWH gelding.

He is registered TWHBEA as Romp & Roll Royal and right now his barn name is 'Romper', which doesn't suit him and will be changed as soon as I find something that suits him. If you have any idea's for a new name, please post them.

He is a chestnut sabino and has so many white hairs that he looks almost pink. I also need to figure out a color for him... if you think of a color that would look good on him, let me know. I already have a mare who wears red and a gelding who wears hunter green, so those are out, and Joyace wore rasberry pink, so that color is out too...

Tear him apart. Give me the good, the bad and the ugly. I'd also love a pedigree critique, as I know next to nothing about his particular bloodlines. I know more about the older bloodlines of Walkers.

Romp And Roll Royal Tennessee Walking Horse
(^ copy and paste to get his bloodlines)


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## CrossCountry

He looks skinny to me, but it could just be the photos. You most likely already know if he's skinny or not, but I just thought I would say something.

I think he's a really pretty guy though! I just love his color, it's very cool looking! I'm not a conformation guru, but I really like him. He has a kind eye. I think turquoise would look amazing on him.


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## Britt

He does need a little more weight and muscle. My friend got him just a few months ago and he was worse off then. She put a lot of weight on him during the time she had him.


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## tinyliny

I hope I am wrong, but his front pasterns look like they might have ring bone. that has got to be wrong . . .
it's that kind of bulge that you see in that front view. is that normal?


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## CrossCountry

Britt said:


> He does need a little more weight and muscle. My friend got him just a few months ago and he was worse off then. She put a lot of weight on him during the time she had him.


Awesome! Just thought I'd mention it!


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## CandyCanes

his hind end is very very very wrong. I think that before we give a critique, a good chiropractor should have a look at him. He just doesn't look right at all...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## walkinthewalk

1. Ditto, I also think that looks like Low Ringbone:-( 

Although when my TWH foundered and had torn ligaments he looked like that until I got him healed. If the horse did have torn or strained ligaments and nobody helped him, that might be the end result.

At any rate, those ankles have a question mark on them:-(

2. Ditto, I am pretty sure he really needs to see a chiropractor, looking at his back:-(

I can understand him being high-hipped as that is a genetic trait of some blood lines but, enough weight has been put on him that I think he is too high hipped for 16 years old and also that "hunters bump" is not at all normal.

I'd say he has sacrum issues.

3. I'd like to see clear pictures of the backs of his front fetlocks, if that is possible. Tape the fetlock hair to the leg, if you have to.

4. It could be the camera angle but, when I lay a ruler across my monitor, his knees are not even, indicating one shoulder might be higher than the other one. He seems to splay out on the right side only or he could have just decided not to square up for the camera.

5. Keep him barefoot until you find can get your own vet out to look at those legs.

I like his big ole Walkin' Horse head and he's a pretty fella

I think he's either been put thru the ringer at some point, or he's had a bad accident and his owners either couldn't or didn't want to deal with what might be long term expenses to keep him healthy (that doesn't necessarily mean sound).

Get your vet to look at him as soon as possible. If you can afford ultrasounds on those legs, get them. I would go so far as to x-ray the front hooves to see if there's any coffin bone rotation. Also, the top of the back can be ultrasound - it is very difficult to do with a portable machine but is possible if the horse can stand quiet long enough for someone to hold the machine over him and somebody else does the alignment and button punching.

Let us know what you find out


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## greentree

He is adorable, but has the look of a horse with EPM. Is he weak at all in hte hind end?


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## TheNinja

He's not weak in his hind end. Ive had several people ask me that, but he moves just fine and isn't clumsy in the least. He moves off like a young, healthy horse would and his gaits are smooth and fairly even. But I agree he must have had an accident at one point in his life, just looking at his hip. When I got him, the previous owner sent me photos of him the year before and that huge hump wasn't on his hip. He was also fat and healthy in those. I was told he was broke in as a two year old by a reining horse trainer and had a pretty good sliding stop at one point. 
When I got Romper, he was about 500# underweight. After some TLC- a serious deworming and having his teeth floated, he has picked up IMMENSELY! He still needs a good 100-150 on him.

For the most part, hes never moved stiffly or seemed sore anywhere. Also, Ive had two very skilled farriers look at his feet and work on him, neither has been even the least bit concerned of his feet, ankles, etc. Not saying that he couldn't have ringbone, but I would really expect one of them to comment on it if it seemed concerning.


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## TheNinja

These are crap for pictures, but these are the few the previous owner sent me after I got him. You can see he looked totally different. I think this was two years ago?

















And then as a yearling. His pasterns look pretty much the same as they do now.


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## tinyliny

I am glad to hear that he moves in comfort. like I said, I just thought I saw a hint of ringbone. but, it could be anything. if he moves sound, then that's good news. he does have a lovely head.


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## Britt

Thanks for commenting, TheNinja, you got to it (and posting the older pics) before I did, lol. 

I'm going to take better confo pics sometime, I was just curious as to what people thought about him now.


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## NRW

I would suggest having a chiropractor look at him possibly or having a vets opinion of his pelvis. 
Did the owners not offer any explanation of the bumps on his pelvis? If it wasn't disclosed and it's a serious issue I would probably try to contact them about it.... 

My gelding has a wonky pelvis as well, I won't get into detail, but long story short he was cleared by 2 different vet clinics and said he was probably born that way so it doesn't make a difference to him he's never know any different lol. 
As for yours I can't really decide if his pelvis looks worse in the recent pic because of weight loss or if he was exposed to some sort of trauma.
Maybe he has arthritis or something from improper reining training or reining training at a young age...? 
I would get more weight on him still and some muscle tone if possible then see how he's looking, if it's still as noticeable. 

I would call his color chestnut roan with a flaxeny mane and tail. Try navy blue on him, I like navy blue on my chestnut roan mare. 

Does he have a bump coming off of his left hip bone or is that just the angle of the pic?

If he does have a bump off it, he's like a combination of my mare and my gelding lol. My gelding with the wonky pelvis is a sorrel with flaxeny mane and tail, and my mare has a scar tissue build up knot around her left hip bone(from some sort of trauma prior to me getting her, she has a fractured on it), and she's chestnut roan with a big blaze  wonky horses unite lol. Just cause they're wonky doesn't always mean they're bad. 
If he's comfortable and happy, then go for it (That's what my vets basically said about my gelding.)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Britt

I took the pic of his hind end at a bit of an angle, since he kept shifting to try and look at me. I had him tied with no helper to hold him, lol.


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## NRW

In his yearling pic, I know he's wooly in it so it hides a little, but he still looks like his pelvis has a pretty high peak to it. 
I think he doesn't look anywhere near as fat as he was in the older pics of him...why did they let him lose so much weight?? That's so fishy, he looks great in the old pics and now you got him and said he was thinner before the recent pics even. 
I would wonder if it's related to an injury of his pelvis and they turned him out not caring about him anymore cause he wasn't able to keep up to their riding?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TheNinja

The old pics are from last year or the year before. They basically just didn't feed him, is what I think.


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## walkinthewalk

I agree, that bump is evident, even as a yearling and I am also wondering why it appears they just let him go?

The whole story isn't being told by the original owners, IMO:?

I would still want x-rays of the hooves and ultrasounds of the pasterns as a baseline. Also a top notch chiropractor that hopefully also does acupuncture, just in case he'd need it somewhere down the road


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## Britt

I'm still trying to see what you guys are seeing in his pasterns... :/


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## NRW

I believe what they're referring to is below his ankle, it is smooth and then flares out slightly. If you google images of Ringbone it might help you to identify what they're referring to. I could see this slightly as well.
It may be best to consult a vet regarding the pasterns and the pelvis if possible, hopefully it is all stuff that you can work with and he is sound for riding. The pelvis thing is very similar to my gelding I will post a picture if I find a good picture of my gelding's.... I would be more concerned about his front feet if he does have any issues there because they carry more weight on their front end.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Britt

*Better Pictures!*


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## Yogiwick

I do see issues with the back end.

I met a horse that colored named The Pink Panther. LOL. He was on a trail riding string out in AZ.


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## CandyCanes

Again, he looks exactly as he did in the first pictures. i am very concerned about his hind end. No horse is conformed like that naturally. I stand by what I said about getting a good chiropractor and possibly a vets opinion.


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## NRW

CandyCanes said:


> Again, he looks exactly as he did in the first pictures. i am very concerned about his hind end. No horse is conformed like that naturally. I stand by what I said about getting a good chiropractor and possibly a vets opinion.


A vets opinion would probably be more valuable than a chiropractor, unless they found a very good chiro. I always ask my vets before having a chiro work on my horses. Once I know they need a chiro I do use one as needed..but with any new horse I ask a vet first..




What I noticed in the pictures too though is that he's not really standing too camped under or camped out at all. Isn't that suppose to be a telltale sign that something is bothering them? I would like to believe he would be standing under himself a lot if the pelvis area was bothering him. 

How is he in the pasture, does he move around a lot freely or does he stay in the same spot? Does he only move around when you start working him?
And have you clarified anything with the people you got him from about his back end? 
And I think he still needs weight on him, he looks too thin to have good muscle tone.

Some horses just have bad conformation, it does happen. I don't know if it's the case here. But I think you should try to find more old pictures of him to find out if his pelvis was always like that. I would be asking the people you got him from what's wrong with it, and trying to consult a vet about it.
I was told by my vet that the pelvis is a hard/expensive area to x ray, but it may be something you will want to look into.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## .Delete.

What I see is a knock down hip and a crooked spine. This was either caused by a severe injury or a conformation deformity. Maybe she will pay more attention to it here. Anyways.

"I feel as if you're really not seeing what we are....or you're making excuses for it. So I went ahead and did a little drawing on your pictures to highlight what we are seeing and why are so concerned. This first photo the red circle was the first red flag, what appears to be a hunters bump at a glance. But when you look at how the horse is standing, it's clear that it's more than just a hunters bump. Notice how sunk in his hip is, and how far out his hind leg is from his body. This is a stance of a horse that is clearly in pain.









This next photo is one that I REALLY need you to look long and hard at. The black line is there to use as a reference to show how un-even the hips are. The red and green lines are started at the point of the hip. Notice how much higher the red line is from the green? Also look at his spine in reference to the black line, it's clearly crooked. To build on what mane is saying, due to an injury or a deformity, this horse's left hind foot is turned out significantly more than the other. The pink and red line is where most of our concern is. That is NOT normal, nor is it because of "the way he is standing" this is because of his conformation. Also please notice how he is standing in this, again he is taking pressure off of his left hip and leg.








Our concern is for this horse and this horse only. If you want to find something suitable to ride, then either make him a pasture pet or sell him as one. This is NOT a riding horse and I would call it inhumane if I did see someone riding this poor animal. "


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## .Delete.

Seeing his yearling photos, I would almost bet this is a conformation deformity. Either way, this animal is NOT suited for riding.


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## FrostedLilly

Thanks delete. I was looking at the stance in the first picture but couldn't quite put my finger on what I was seeing, but I can definitely see that he looks like he's keeping weight off the one side. In the pictures where he's moving, again, I can't put my finger on it, but he does not look comfortable. In reading about the causes of ring bone and looking at that hip, it would seem like he's been in an accident or had some kind of repetitive strain. Could he possibly have a degenerative disease? 

Britt, you need to have this horse assessed by a vet, for his sake. I'm still learning the finer details of confo, but I can see what the others have said. People on the internet can tell you what they see and what appears to be red flags, but only a vet can really say for certain what is going on. It sucks, because he's new, but it sounds like this guy has had a rough go and I think he's owed at least that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Yogiwick

As someone who has a horse with similar *conformation* and a goose rump, I would put money on this *not* being conformational. My horse has a generally similar rear end but everything is slight and even and smooth. He does have a peak ("hunter's bump" though not really) and then it does drop down more drastically than another horses rear end would. However as said everything is smooth and even and not nearly as severe and it is clearly conformational. This to me is clearly NOT conformational; for those asking for older pictures look at his yearling pictures! Is his rear end perfect? No. But it's _nowhere_ like it is now. His yearling pictures show a horse with a perfectly _normal _rear end.


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## 4hoofbeat

Can you get pictures of him standing with his back end square? his back legs lined up, not one in front of the other? or does he not do that?


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## .Delete.

Yogiwick said:


> As someone who has a horse with similar *conformation* and a goose rump, I would put money on this *not* being conformational. My horse has a generally similar rear end but everything is slight and even and smooth. He does have a peak ("hunter's bump" though not really) and then it does drop down more drastically than another horses rear end would. However as said everything is smooth and even and not nearly as severe and it is clearly conformational. This to me is clearly NOT conformational; for those asking for older pictures look at his yearling pictures! Is his rear end perfect? No. But it's _nowhere_ like it is now. His yearling pictures show a horse with a perfectly _normal _rear end.


Perhaps it's me looking too hard at his yearling photos. But I do see a bit of a goose rump on him. If it's not conformational, it must be from an injury. He clearly has what looks like a knock down hip. An judging from the movement in the photos posted, he has some serious discomfort going on. 

OP please do this horse a favor and get a vet. I cannot fathom why you wouldn't get him a vet anyways. Having a new horse see a vet is one of the basic fundamentals of horse ownership.


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## NRW

I would really get a real veterinarians opinion on this horse before ruling him out of being a riding horse. 
My horse has a leg that was declared as "one hind leg being phyisically longer than the other" by one a the most well known vets in my area.....I heard that a thought surely this horse won't be riding sound" but no the vet said he is fine for riding. And I honestly haven't had an issue with it yet, he trail rides great and if he spooks and feels like it he can bronco buck like nobody's business. 

So I think you guys are being a little harsh. Definitely get a vet opinion on the hind end and pasterns. 
He was ridden before, but there's a reason he got thrown out in the pasture uncared for. Wether that reason is related to his hip or pasterns you should definitely find out.

* I also believe his yearling picture makes his pelvis look pointy and would probably be more apparent if he hadn't had such a long thick coat in the picture.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FrostedLilly

Yeah, if not for him then for your safety as a rider. It's one thing to move in a round pen and another to carry and balance a rider, especially over a long period of time. Make sure he can safely and soundly carry you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Britt

I have spoken to his old owner and asked several questions and she said he's never been shown and has never had an injury to his spine, hip or pelvis and that he has always been a harder keeper and has always had a bump on his bum. She also sent me pics of his half sisters, etc... and they all have the bump as well, though not as major due to them being more muscled and having more weight on him.


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## Britt

Also, the photo with all the lines drawn in it, from when he was standing in the barn, for the last time, not only was I crouching down, but he wasn't even angled properly for me to get a proper straight on hind shot. 

Guess I'm just not seeing what you guys think you are seeing. I'm fairly sure I'd be able to tell if he was in pain or off, since I see him daily. Whenever the Camp gets a vet to come back out, I'll see if the vet will check him over, but he's sound, sane and hasn't once been grumpy or ill-mannered. He moves around the pasture a lot, and a horse that is in pain wouldn't move around a lot. 

W/E... I originally asked for a general critique and haven't even got that yet. I'm out.


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## gunslinger

You two Alabama Belle's need to join us down at Ider on Monday and ride with us in the parade......and take in the mule pulling.....although, it's mostly draft horse pulling.....​


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## Yogiwick

I do think he has a slight goose rump, but what I'm saying is his conformation has changed (no it wasn't perfect to begin with but it definitely got worse.)

Here are a few pictures of my horse. OP _please _look at them and see the difference.

imgur: the simple image sharer

Fuzzy picture taken a month before. THIS is what a thin horse with a conformational goose rump looks like. Yes, some horses are bonier through that area, but not like that. It also stands out how much different it is from his baby pics. Note with my horse how everything is smooth and even, not "lumpy bumpy". He was thin and in pasture condition at this time and still looks better.

You asked for a general critique and the response you've gotten is that there is something medically up and until that is addressed a critique would be inaccurate and irrelevant. I don't see what there is to be upset about. Sorry it's not good news, but it is important and relevant news.


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## FrostedLilly

You asked for the good, bad and the ugly. That's what people gave you. I'm sorry that it wasn't what you wanted, but I truly hope you consider another horse as your primary riding horse.

ETA: Just a clarifying question, the owners who said he had never been in an accident, these are the same people who randomly stopped feeding him? 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tryst

Since you have expressed that you can not see what people are talking about I have gone in with photoshop to show you. 

On all of the side photos he has a prominent bump just above and slightly behind his hip. That is not normal. He also has a bump about half way between his tailhead and the hip. That is not normal either. Furthermore he has a slight roach over his loin. While that in and of itself is not uncommon (and not too severe on him), it can be an indication of stiffness/tense muscles or it can be structural. He also appears to have muscle atrophy throughout the hind end. As he is not extremely thin that degree of muscle atrophy is unusual in a horse his age, even for a horse that has done nothing but stand around for years and years. Using photoshop I have removed the bumps and filled in the muscle some (still leaving him a bit goose rumped as I do think that is his structure) to show you what a more normal rump would look like.












From the back view he has an extremely prominent bump that sticks up above his hindquarters. That is the most alarming aspect of your photos. If he was emaciated thin then one might expect his spine to stick up that far, but on a lean, but otherwise healthy weight horse that huge bump is really concerning. As prominent as it is and with as much muscle wasting as he has throughout his hind end are both indications that there is a problem with his hind end. His tailhead also appears to be sitting at an angle, which can indicate that the horse's hindquarters are out of alignment (then again it can mean they rubbed out one side more than the other). At any rate, I have again gone in with photoshop and removed the lump to show you what a normal hind view should look like on a horse that is only pasture fit.












I hope this helps you see the abnormal areas on his back that have people so concerned.


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## ArabLuver

People are giving you the critique you asked for, and because you don't like it, you dip out. 

I am thankful that someone noticed that poor animal's hind end! How anyone COULDN'T see it is beyond me. 

I really hope that you do the right thing and have a vet out to see this poor animal. That's your responsibility as an owner!


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## CandyCanes

ArabLuver said:


> I am thankful that someone noticed that poor animal's hind end! How anyone COULDN'T see it is beyond me!


YES! I was browsing hf and looking at this thread, when my friend entered the room and saw the picture of this horse. She has never ridden in her life, and knows diddly squat about horses. Yet what did she say? "That horses bum looks very strange! Not at all like your horses bum!" 
If she can see it, sure as hell so can the OP. I think the OP sees it clear as day but has decided she doesn't want to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Foxhunter

As someone who has done a lot of chiropractic work on horses I can assure you that no matter a hat angle you took these pictures from _this horse is misaligned through his left hip. _
The fact he is standing with one leg back will lower the hip that side making it look worse however, if his right leg was back and left forward he would still be uneven.

I agree he does look as if he has low ringbone on both fronts. 

The fact that this is a possibility could make the horse lame on _both_ front feet thus making him look sound.


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## .Delete.

I'm down right insulted and appalled at the lengths you're going to to ignore the facts. An that you have the gull to sit there behind your computer and say WE DIDNT GIVE YOU A CRITIQUE?! You're serious?!


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## NRW

.Delete. said:


> I'm down right insulted and appalled at the lengths you're going to to ignore the facts. An that you have the gull to sit there behind your computer and say WE DIDNT GIVE YOU A CRITIQUE?! You're serious?!


You're being rude. You can't come on the internet, and tell somebody that their horse isn't sound for riding. You aren't a vet and you have no grounds to tell her that other than some pictures... 
You need to calm down and let her decide what's best for her own animal just like you do with your own. I'm sure if somebody reacted this way on your thread you wouldn't be answering them either.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Change

gunslinger said:


> You two Alabama Belle's need to join us down at Ider on Monday and ride with us in the parade......and take in the mule pulling.....although, it's mostly draft horse pulling.....​


Not meaning to hi-jack this thread, but gunslinger - could you PM me with more information like time and where? I won't be able to ride with y'all - no horse yet - but the mule and draft pulling sounds like fun!


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## FrostedLilly

Yeah, I think this thread has run its course. There's no need to be insulted - the op wasn't personally attacking anyone. I have to say though, this is one of the best critiques I've ever seen. I've never seen so many people take time out of their day to photo shop, give examples, draw diagrams etc to better enable the understanding of someone else. At the end of the day, the op will do what she does, but hopefully she took away some of what people were trying to explain.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Change

Glynnis said:


> Yeah, I think this thread has run its course. There's no need to be insulted - the op wasn't personally attacking anyone. I have to say though, this is one of the best critiques I've ever seen. I've never seen so many people take time out of their day to photo shop, give examples, draw diagrams etc to better enable the understanding of someone else. At the end of the day, the op will do what she does, but hopefully she took away some of what people were trying to explain.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree. I keep coming back to this thread because I was actually learning more of what to look for while horse-shopping! Thank you, everyone who took the time to make this an informative and educational thread!


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## tinyliny

please , let's keep it informative. if the OP is not interested in these points, many others are.


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## Foxhunter

One simple way to tell if the pelvis has dropped one side is to have the horse stand square behind. Stand close to his quarters directly behind, (with a horse that won't shake hands with you!) starting at the highest point run both hands down either side until your forefinger hits the bone. Then raise your thumbs up straight, the should be level. It is easier to see this than just looking at the pelvis.


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## Yogiwick

We can't say "the horse isn't sound for riding" we can say "the horse appears to have a serious issue and we highly recommend having the horse professionally evaluated asap". I definitely agree with that and don't think anyone was rude, just frustrated.

It's very frustrating to me that the OP asked for a critique and feels like one was not given when it was. The critique is that the horse appears to have a serious issue.

I agree that this thread is very informative and that it is clear at this point the OP isn't going to listen to the advise offered. Everyone posted for the well being of the horse and was honest. Things aren't always pretty but it's good to know so you can work with what you have. Maybe the OP will see this someday.


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