# Teaching horse to lower head



## IslandWave (Nov 25, 2009)

I'm a short person, even in my work/riding boots, and I have a 6 year old dinosaur mare that I have started undersaddle. The trouble is that she's 18hh and still growing. She's also a very suspicous, spooky, snorty, and alert horse (we're doing a LOT of desensitizing) so she does not naturally stand with her head anywhere near the ground. This can be bothersome when I am haltering and bridling her. Although she is a dear and doesn't mind me fumbling around on my tip toes, I'd like to teach her this so her future owners won't have the same trouble as me if they happen to be shorter than six feet. :wink:

I've never taught a horse to lower their head on command, so I would love some help! How did you teach this to other horses?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Little by little. You put your hand on the poll and press downward while at the same time pulling down on the halter via the leadline, and when she gives a tiny bit you stop all pressure. The trick is to NOT give up the pressure for all incorrect reponses; i.e. if she responds by jerking her head up, you follow her with your hand and keep the pressure on. If she pulls away, you follow and keep the pressure on. Doe'st have to be much pressure , but enough to cause her to search for a way out of the pressure. When she puts her head down, you release. All the way. 
Once she starts to get it, add the word "Down" .
As she gets softer, you release only 50% and then you ask for a little bit further, then total realease. You keep adding to the amount that you are asking her to lower. 

You can also encourage her to go down , all the way to the ground, by putting a cookie on the ground, but only after she has learned to respond to pressure on the poll and the lead. If she gets really soft, you can just use the lead lind pulling down.
Just take it in small incrememts and reward for small tries.


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## Hidalgo13 (Dec 24, 2010)

Oh oh! I have a video of exactly this I found not long ago...






It was very helpful and the horse used in this video is also young, spooky, sensitive. Hope it helps.


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

I would use a rope halter hook a lead to it. Just so you know you will get resistance so don't think your doing something wrong. Anyway, just take up the lead and tug gently but firmly down until she lowers her head slightly. She may fight it but don't stop pulling until she gives for even a second. As soon as she gives let go of the lead. 

Repeat until she starts to realize she won't get a release until she drops that head. When you get threw she should drop her head to the ground. It will take time and patience.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## banman (Dec 14, 2009)

well oyu can always you the pressure point on her pole but that is not much use if you cant reach it, one thing you can try it take a treat or some oats and mut it out in from of her when she puts her head down to eat it say head down and give her a rub, then when she gets that just make it lower and lower till it where you want it, then practise making sure she understands the commaned and is not just going for the oats or treats.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

I did it with the rope halter on. Just pull down slightly and as long as she gives (which is just a tiny hint at first) - release the pressure. Than do it again - pull, give, release. And again....


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Oh, may I as a mere male suggest that when she does bend her head upon request, you give her a little treat like a horse biscuit or a bit of apple - maybe even a carrot plus a stroke and a hug.

and say 'good girl'

A big horse like this will never do anything unless she wants to, and for sure you do not want her _*not*_ to.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

there is nothing wrong with giving a treat as a secondary reward. But the primary cue and the primary reward must be that which can be duplicated anywhere, anytime; pressure on the lead for the cue, release of pressure and "good girl" voice.
Since you objective is to get the horse to lower her head so that you can bridle/halter etc. you will want to be able to put your arm over the head, eventually. So, as soon as you get her to lower her head with pull down on the lead rope and her head comes into range of you being able to put a hand or arm over, you might start doing that, and encouraging her to keep her head down for more than a mear second. That way you will be able to get about the business of bridleing.


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## IslandWave (Nov 25, 2009)

I can't wait to work on this now! Thanks all. I have a game plan now.
Oh and I will watch the video! I think the visual aid will greatly help me, too.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Actually while I use treats quite a lot, giving a carrot for every tiny "give" is little too much IMHO. :wink: If/when she does it all way to the ground, than yes, treat could be appropriate (given she's not mouthy).


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## Hidalgo13 (Dec 24, 2010)

hehe, don't want to butt in, but could someone pleaaase explain me WHAT the carrot thing is? Like how and why do you get carrots on here? Please someone... answer? I have asked this a few times and no one answers me... is it a secret or something?


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## IslandWave (Nov 25, 2009)

I've gotten this mare to understand what "good girl" means, so I will try vocal praise and rubbing her neck where she likes it before using treats. Treats will be my back up.


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

I agree with tiny and kitten on the treats. That is my opinion. The only reason I suggested the halter and lead 1st was the OP said the horse was tall and to try and work on the poll right away will be next to impossible.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## IslandWave (Nov 25, 2009)

I think I may use a stool if I have to.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Hidalgo13 said:


> hehe, don't want to butt in, but could someone pleaaase explain me WHAT the carrot thing is? Like how and why do you get carrots on here? Please someone... answer? I have asked this a few times and no one answers me... is it a secret or something?


Hidalgo, it's not just you! I haven't figured out the "carrot thing" either!

Sometimes I steal one, and then someone else will steal it from me. At any given time I have a total of 1-2 carrots! :lol:

As far as treats go, I am a big believer. I know everyone is concerned about teaching the horses to be mouthy and such, but I really have never had treats be a problem. And the horses are MUCH more motivated and happy when treats are involved. 

I even avoided giving my mouthy colt treats for the longest time, because I don't want him to be mouthy, right? But I find it makes no difference in his behavior other than I would rather have him staring at me wanting a cookie than chewing on my tack or something else. I know that sounds awful, but I really have had treat make things better and never worse with any of my horses. I find it also breaks the ice and refocuses a nervous horse. Instead of being all looky-lou, they are paying attention to ME. :lol:


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## Cowgirl101 (Oct 12, 2010)

Under the saddle, see-sawing might work. I have to do that with my horses.
So it might work on yours.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

with regard to treats, I give treats to my horse and he can become a bit mouthy, however he immediately goes back to respectingmy space if I reimind him . My friends horse is not polite about takingthem from my hand and has inhaled my whole hand more than once. So, for him, I dig in my pocket and he gets all attentive, but I move my fingers in the air at the side of his head and say "over!" He will move his head away from me and wait for the treat, which I then place on the ground in front of him. He learns to WAIT and he gets a stretch to go down and the endorphins that come with lowering of the head.

The thing about treats, is make sure you are using them as a reward, not a bribe. There's a big difference. 

When mounting, if Mac comes and stands nicely for me and doesnnt walk off when I am in the saddle, I reach forward and give him a treat, but not always or he is only performing for treats. Just someimes to keep him interested in cooperating. I never give him the treat ahead of mounting , like, "here, take this and then you'll be good" That's a bribe.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Hidalgo13 said:


> hehe, don't want to butt in, but could someone pleaaase explain me WHAT the carrot thing is? Like how and why do you get carrots on here? Please someone... answer? I have asked this a few times and no one answers me... is it a secret or something?


I think you can gather carrots and steal other people carrots. Because I don't like steal things even "virtually", I don't play. Lol!


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Cowgirl101 said:


> Under the saddle, *see-sawing* might work. I have to do that with my horses.
> So it might work on yours.


Please, please, don't do it to lower a head! Or for anything else (like slowing down)! 

The properly trained horse WILL lower the head as long as you pick up the reins and ask.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Well ladies, there is this core issue about the matter of treats. 

We men bribe our women with baubles, bangels and beads
But when we try the same tactic with our horses, they are undoubtedly the more discerning and they don’t always do as they are asked.

So we men try it again. 

Clever those horses aren’t they.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Hmmmm..... Barry, I guess its very much depends on man! :lol: Some definitely doesn't like to spend a cent on "bribing"....


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

So much depends on the horse (and ladies too, I'm thinking!) How greedy is he? (Or she?) If he's greedy, then I say, make use of it! You don't have to do anything more than give a cue, and wait...eventually your horse will lower his head, for whatever reason (don't use the treat to bribe him)...then, he gets a treat. He will be quite anxious to figure out how that happened, and "act" for it. It's like clicker training.

Merging that with putting on the halter or bridle is a matter of time. I almost always start something new with treats: it gets their attention, and encourages a positive, forward-thinking attitude. Within a week, say, I delay giving the treat, until it's so far off, it might be just at the end of the session. It is NOT a forever-thing, just a crutch.


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## Cowgirl101 (Oct 12, 2010)

kitten_Val said:


> Please, please, don't do it to lower a head! Or for anything else (like slowing down)!
> 
> The properly trained horse WILL lower the head as long as you pick up the reins and ask.


Why would someone do it to slow a horse down?

My teacher for lesson tells me to for the school horse and it works. I didn't know what see-sawing for a horse was until her. So do you know what I'm talking about?


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Cowgirl101 said:


> Why would someone do it to slow a horse down?
> 
> My teacher for lesson tells me to for the school horse and it works. I didn't know what see-sawing for a horse was until her. So do you know what I'm talking about?


Cowgirl, what exactly do you mean by see-sawing? There is a see-sawing, and there is an alternating the reins if I call it correctly (like some people use it to remind the horse not to lean on bit, for example). 

Yes, some people do use (and suggest too, especially in places like yahoo answers and such) see-sawing to slow down the very forward horse. :?


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## IslandWave (Nov 25, 2009)

If I "see-sawed" a horse's mouth, I'd get in big trouble from my dressage trainer! I get what you mean though. I've been taught to supple a horse by using the inside rein in a give and take motion, but keeping the outside rein steady. As my trainer puts it: "moving the bit across the horse's mouth." Anyways, we don't have problems with her lowering her head. She's still green, so I don't expect her to be reaching down and stretching into the contact just yet. I'm just trying to get her obedient to my aids. She naturally carries herself in a frame, which is wonderful.


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## Cowgirl101 (Oct 12, 2010)

IslandWave said:


> If I "see-sawed" a horse's mouth, I'd get in big trouble from my dressage trainer! I get what you mean though. I've been taught to supple a horse by using the inside rein in a give and take motion, but keeping the outside rein steady. As my trainer puts it: "moving the bit across the horse's mouth." Anyways, we don't have problems with her lowering her head. She's still green, so I don't expect her to be reaching down and stretching into the contact just yet. I'm just trying to get her obedient to my aids. She naturally carries herself in a frame, which is wonderful.


See-sawing is moving the bit, in a horse's mouth...


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## IslandWave (Nov 25, 2009)

In my mind, "see-sawing" is yanking alternately on the reins and dramatically moving the horse's head side to side. Whereas when you hold the outside rein, the horse's head remains still. But that's just me!
Thank you for your input.  I didn't mean to go on and on.


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

IslandWave said:


> .... As my trainer puts it: "*moving the bit across the horse's mouth."* ...
> Anyways, we don't have problems with her lowering her head. She's still green, so I don't expect her to be *reaching down and stretching into the contact* just yet. I'm just trying to get her obedient to my aids. She naturally carries herself in a *frame*, which is wonderful.


I've been taught that lowering the head and reaching down for a soft contact is the FIRST thing you want your horse to learn. I've NEVER had ANY trainer tell me to move the bit across the mouth. 

You might try another trainer, if you can, because I do not believe a young, green horse should be in any "frame" at all. There are many ways to school, but it seems you might be setting up problems for yourself in the future.


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## IslandWave (Nov 25, 2009)

Beling, I am currently an intern at a dressage farm and as such, am in the position of a student. I'm learning. I'm far from being a great rider, much less a trainer. I also have found that I struggle with conveying my training thoughts and ideas to others and I feel that is the case with my previous post. 

I think nothing but the best of my current trainers. I have seen, time and time again, that their methods work and that they have produced many a happy and correct horse over the span of 40-50 years. However, I also know that there is more than one way to training the dressage horse, some ways more "right" than others.

My trainer has also taken lessons from well-respected trainers and has an open mind to other training techniques. In fact, "moving the bit over the horse's tongue" is what Lendon Gray taught her.

I only started working with green/unstarted horses when I came to the farm last summer. When I begin riding them, I find obedience to be at the top of my priority list. Does the horse listen to me and understand me? 
I guess what I meant is that I don't ask the horse to carry themself in a round frame during these first rides. I'd rather they turn when I tell them to, go forward when I ask, and halt when I give the aids for it. I do take up a steady contact with the reins and soften when they give to it. I am not riding with floppy reins.

This particular horse is amazing. Her conformation and the way she travels is just so cool. She naturally uses her hind end and goes along in an uphill fashion. When I said that she "naturally carries herself in a frame" I meant that when I sit on her and basically do nothing other than ride her with the basic aids for w/t/c, turning, halting, and keep a steady contact with her mouth, her poll is a the highest point and she is on the vertical. I and the other interns have been able to work with many green horses so far, and have found that some of the horses are like her. They naturally fall onto the bit and carry themselves in a round frame. We've also found that others don't and instead drag you down onto the forehand, hide behind the vertical, stick their neck out like a wood board, or etc. They're all different from each other and what I've mentioned is only their first reaction to being undersaddle. Once they "get" what we would like them to do, they cross the line from being "just started" to "green." Or whatever the correct terminology would be. And slowly, we can move the horse that wants to be on the forehand to being better balanced, push out the tucked in head and neck of the horse behind the vertical, and bend and supple the stiff horse. It's like driving a car. You need the basics like steering and the brakes. Once you've got that down then you can turn on the radio and adjust the A/C.

I feel like even now I've muddled things up again, but I really do hope that this helped you understand my thinking a little better. I just don't want to mis-represent my trainer at all. I appreciate your input and am always happy to see a fellow local on the boards! I'm from the Big Island and have lived there all my life until I decided to do this internship. What type of riding do you do?


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

IslandWave, I think she simply quoted the wrong post (because you were using "bold" instead of quotes yourself)... :wink:


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## LJohnson (Jul 24, 2010)

I agree with all the suggestions so far and wanted to add one more unmentioned technique. While the you tube vidoe offered information about endorphins with a lowered head, there's another endorphin related technique that quickly results in a lowered head. I understand it's a bit controversial, but ENDOTAPPING has been a wonderful introduction to training my mare. If your not familiar with endosticks, or endotapping: It's just a firm foam ball on the end of a whip/crop/bat as opposed to a lash or loop. My mare had some challenges with nervousness, fleeing, and stiffness. I made an endotapper with a dressage whip, a foam ball (Walmart party supply sale), balloon, and liquid rubber or liquid electrical tape. Within the first 10 min. every time I tapped her - and anywhere I tapped her- she immediately lowered her head and stood still. Some think it's just another desensitizing tool, but it's really helped my groundwork with my mare. I find just a couple minutes before we begin anything, and she's more receptive to working and feeling good.


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

Thank you for the explanation, IslandWave. (I often misunderstand posts!:?) I can understand the moving of the bit, now, too, as a way of saying: "You don't pull!--- but you do activate the bit, somehow."


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## IslandWave (Nov 25, 2009)

LJohnson - I've seen that before and wondered what it was (foam ball on the end of a stick). Very interesting. I'll have to look into it now that you've sparked my curiosity!

Beling - No worries! Typing and reading online can get us all a little muddled at times.


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## LJohnson (Jul 24, 2010)

IslandWave, if your interested in seeing the stages of endo tapping, search you tube "what is end tapping?" Equis University has a video featuring JP Giocomino and displaying the technique. From what I understand, he was involved in the research and development. My nervous mare found great relaxation through tapping, and we're working on adding movement to the training. However the lowering of her head happened within the first moments of it's introduction.best wishes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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