# Why force??



## darkwillow (Apr 12, 2009)

I think hitting a horse is wrong. I've never had to hit a horse, and when I did hit a horse because others told me to, it ruined the horse. Is it just me who thinks this?? People use natural horsemanship and force in the same sentence, but natural horsemanship is about NOT using force to train a horse.

Is it just me, or does anyone else think this is weird??:?


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## Misfit (Jun 29, 2009)

The way I see it, in order to train, we need to relate to horses in a manner they understand.

Watch a herd of horses. Horse gets too close, first they get a warning. Second they get nailed with a hoof. 

Horses communicate through body language. Body language that involves the occasional wollop with a foot, or a bite, when deserved. 

Relating that to people, when the horse crosses 'the line' a good, hard smack is going to get the message across in a way that's natural for THEM. Our smack is the equivalent of getting kicked by an alpha horse for being an idiot, only our smacks are a LOT lighter (due to the fact that we are much smaller). 

Another thing that drives me absolutely bonkers are people who advertise 'force free training'. All training has a little bit of force, a push or pull that influences the horse. The factor is how MUCH force. Good training gives the horse a choice. The trick is making the good thing easy and the bad thing HARD/uncomfortable/not fun. You use as little pressure as possible, but as much as necessary. 

For example, you ask horse to trot. Horse has a choice. He can canter, and have a relieve from the pressure (via a relaxing of the leg and seat aids), or he can keep trotting and deal with an increase in the leg/seat aids (via stronger aids, and a crop). The horse could have avoided the stronger aids, but didn't, and had to learn why it WASN'T a good idea to ignore the leg. 

Crops and spurs are merely supplements of the leg aids. They allow us to give stronger aids when necessary. Nothing evil about it. 

Finally, could you explain how hitting a horse ruined a horse? I really don't understand.


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## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

Unless someone is continuously hitting the horse for no reason then I don't think it's wrong. Maybe it ruined you because you didn't think it was right?. Horses in the wild are on the pecking order and are use to being kicked and bitten. One little slap from a human for doing something wrong won't traumatize the horse.

You have to remember that horses are TOO big to try and baby them, or let them take advantage of us.


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## BackInTheSaddleAgain (Apr 20, 2009)

Misfit said it all. 
If someone ruined a horse by hitting, they probably shouldn't be around horses. They must be taking it too far or doing it at the WRONG time. To me, the hitting line that is drawn is bold and common sense.


Misfit said:


> The way I see it, in order to train, we need to relate to horses in a manner they understand.
> 
> Watch a herd of horses. Horse gets too close, first they get a warning. Second they get nailed with a hoof.
> 
> ...


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

....I never hit unless the horse is doing something dangerous like trying to bite me or someone around me... or trying to kick me.....but I definitely don't "beat"... I smack....on a rare occasion....Mostly I just say "EEEEHHHH...." in a mean loud voice and that's enough.


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## Whispering Silver (Jul 6, 2009)

Hmm i slap a horse on the rump and say "over" quite a bit at the riding school, but thats because they are riding school horses so are used to being mucked about by people who dont know what they are doing. as a result this is the only thing they tend to understand when you want them to move to the other side of their loosebox. 

i will smack them on the nose if they bite me or are misbehaving, how hard i do it depends on the level of the threat. 

i often use force on a 17HH horse at the riding school to get him to move over otherwise i am only a mere fly in comparason to him and he likes to stand his ground. when i say 'force' i mean leaning against him will all 8st of me (not much). and ocasionaly the odd elbow in the chest, ribs. but nothing that would hurt him or damage him long-term.

the only time i have used what i consider to be 'real' force is when i was riding a welsh mountain pony. he is only 3 and was broken in badly so is badly behaved. the only way i could get him to listen to me was a harsh slap on the rump a few times with the riding crop. by harsh i mean rasing my hand until it was about level with my shoulder and then using a harsh downward motion. the resounding 'thwack' scared him more than the pain i think as all i need do now is hit my boot to make a similar noise and he gets the message. ocassionaly he needs a slap on the rump.

is any of this wrong? please let me know, but at a riding school the horses are used to being ridden by people who dont know what they are doing and as a result may have got into bad habits.


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

As light as possible, but as firm as necessary. I'm not going to let a 1000 lb animal walk all over me but I'm not going to use force when the horse doesn't need it either. There is a time and place and timing is critical. You use force at the wrong time, yes, you can have detrimental effects. However, not using any force when a horse needs it, that can be detrimental as well because you end up with a 1000 lb pushy puppy.


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## goldilockz (Aug 1, 2008)

We JUST had a topic on smacking/hitting horses.


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## Tennessee (Dec 7, 2008)

I treat my horses like children, they act up in a manner that is bad, they might get a light "spanking". I agree, there are better ways to discipline than hitting a horse. BUT, if one of my horses tries to take a piece of skin out of my shoulder by biting me, or kicks out at me, I will give them a little smack.


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## dressagebelle (May 13, 2009)

Excessive hitting, hitting because you are ****ed off, smacking them on the face with a crop, stuff like that I think is unacceptable, but a smack on the rump to get them to move over, a smack on the chest, or the shoulder to keep them from walking all over you when they try, I believe are sometimes necessary to send a message to the horse, but it is imperative that the discipline comes at the right moment, and isn't carried on about or with for more than a few seconds.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

NH has lost it's true meaning. I see "NH" trainers smacking horses, pushing them, etc. and it's horrible. NH is about working with the horse's nature and not blaming him EVER for acting like a prey animal or giving us feedback. Sure there are times you need to defend your space, but the way I used to handle horses (smacking them when they tried to bite, etc) and the way I handle horses now, even if the horse is trying to bite, is completely different and I actually have success with the way I handle horses now. IMO smacking has no place in handling horses, but that's just me.


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

I have no qualms about giving Scout a smack if he needs it. He has basically good ground manners, and excellent stall manners (he'll leave his feed bin during a meal to let me pass to refill his water bucket), but he's relatively green and can get pushy sometimes. I _never _just out and whack him, he's always given ample warning (a stern look in the eye, "Scout, move," etc). If he chooses to ignore me, then he gets a smack. Not hard, just enough to get his attention on what I'm telling him to do. As has already been said, "As gentle as possible, but as firm as is neccesary." I'm 5 ft 2 in, and 115 lbs. Scout's 14 hands and pushing 800 lbs, by my estimate. I WILL NOT be run over by a horse, and if a smack is what it takes, that's what it takes. My hand is absolutely not going to make an impression, compared to the bite or kick he would have gotten if he had similarly ignored another horse higher on the pecking order.

I have heard people actually _brag_ that they just walk down their barn aisle smacking their horses over the head with a wooden board :shock::-x:?:shock:. That is _positively_ uncalled for, and is _not_ horse training, by _any_ definition. That is simple domination. The difference between me and these nuts is the difference between a boss mare maintaining her position in the pecking order and the "bully" horse in the herd who won't let the other horses rest.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

I won't hesitate to smack a horse. If I am grooming and he snakes his head around to bite me I will hit him anywhere I can with the brush. If I am grooming and he cow kicks at me I will knee him in the ribs. I will tie him to a hitching rail so if he tried to break free he can not. That is force. I will hobble him front, back or both. If he starts chewing on the hitching rail while grooming I will smack him on the body with the brush.
It is all about knowing when to discipline and how. I don't believe in twirling the lead rope or any of that other natural stuff and I make good horses.
I usually start and train mean tempered stallions of age 3 or 4 with little to no handling and in a month of so you wouldn't recognize them.


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## darkwillow (Apr 12, 2009)

Thankyou!! Spirithorse gets what I mean!! People say its okay to hit a horse because other horses do that in the paddock. But horses don't see us as horses. To them we are predators, and they have a reason to fear us. We teach them slowly that we are okay, but every time we hit them, we give them a reason to not want to be with us.

The horse that was ruined...every time he bucked, i was told to hit him with a crop. Then he bucked harder, I had to hit him harder, etc. Turns out the horse had chiropractic problems. Funny how the horse was in pain and we automatically saw it as being nasty. Now I work him WITHOUT force and now he behaves a lot better.

As for all those who made comments questioning my ability...I am quite capable of training my horses, now that I have learnt that hitting the horse doesn't get you anywhere in the long run. 

None of my horses "walk all over me" and I have never needed to hit them. They respect me. Isabelle follows me around the paddock, even when it's not feeding time.
________________
Consistent, Confident, Kind Leadership = Trust, Obedience and Respect.


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## Brumby (Nov 5, 2008)

Just hitting a horse because you are irritated can very easly ruin them. To use natural horsemanship you have to communicate to the horse like another horse would. Horses will kick or bite if another comes to close, or something. Clinton anderson (not my favorite but I know his style) uses a lot hard tapping with his stick to teach a horse to yeild. I think that sometimes it is nessesary, to stand there and let a horse do something potentialy harmful to you will ruin the horse and possible hurt you, and no matter how well bred a horse you have you are more important that the horse. So if you have to, do it, but do it in the right way.


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

Well said, Brumby!


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## Misfit (Jun 29, 2009)

darkwillow said:


> Thankyou!! Spirithorse gets what I mean!! People say its okay to hit a horse because other horses do that in the paddock. But horses don't see us as horses. To them we are predators, and they have a reason to fear us. We teach them slowly that we are okay, but every time we hit them, we give them a reason to not want to be with us.
> 
> _*This is why it's important to read the horse you are working with. If the horse is scared of you, probably hitting isn't the best idea. However, if the horse is obviously disrespecting you, fear isn't the current issue. Many horses grow up around people. We are not scary to them. A good hard whack isn't going to traumatize them.
> 
> ...


Am I making sense?


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Acting like a horse does not come naturally to humans. It's actually the exact opposite of how humans act. That's why people have problems with horses. And since it's not natural for the human, we have to learn to think like a horse does and see things from his perspective, not what we think his perspective should be. We don't think a plastic bag or a mail box is scary, but to the horse it's serious danger. So in working with him, we have to put ourselves in his position, knowing that survival is #1 priority. And if we truly understand that, we would not push the horse to sniff it or go past it or to keep going. We would be sensitive to his fears because we could relate to him. However, if we don't put ourselves in his place and understand his feelings toward what is happening, we will never achieve the thing we want to achieve with the quality that we want or what is possible. I see A LOT of people getting mediocre results and they are happy with that. They might be able to make their horse jump 5 feet, yet the horse won't come to them from the pasture when called.....and they see nothing wrong with this. Or the horse bites when saddled or acts irritated, yet they can do a perfect flying lead change.....and they see nothing wrong with this. Every single thing a horse does, be it positive or negative, is feedback about what we are doing, and if we don't listen to it then we proved to them, right then and there, that we don't understand him and in some cases we just don't care. How can the relationship ever be what it could when that happens? It can't.


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## Joshie (Aug 26, 2008)

Tennessee said:


> I treat my horses like children, they act up in a manner that is bad, they might get a light "spanking". I agree, there are better ways to discipline than hitting a horse. BUT, if one of my horses tries to take a piece of skin out of my shoulder by biting me, or kicks out at me, I will give them a little smack.


Horses are not humans. They are not our children. They don't "speak" English. They "speak" horse. When we got our dogs the trainer said something that's stuck with me. She said that horses need to have a pack leader. If there's no clear leader they don't do well. It's stressful and they feel the need to try to be pack leader.

Horses speak by kicking, biting, and general bullying. Take our Joshua, for example. When he joined the herd he was bottom of the barrel. He didn't like that. He wasn't allowed to eat with the others. Well, in the last year, the herd has gained another member. She's a lovely Clyde. Well, Joshua has become her mortal enemy. She does not like him. That's because Mr. Paint Tough Guy is mean. He pushes her around. Horses do that. They respect that. 

If we want horses to understand us we have to speak their language. They are not people. They are horses.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

I agree absolutely 100% with Misfit on this.

Spirit, I really don't understand what your saying here. Basically you've said that the horse never reacts to anything but us when we are around them.They never give feedback on their environment, on anything but us.

Once again... I agree with everything misfit said. Kudos!


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Of course the horse will give you feedback on how he feels in the environment. I wasn't talking about how the horse responds to his environment in my last post, I was talking about how the horse responds to us.


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## Brumby (Nov 5, 2008)

Scoutrider said:


> Well said, Brumby!


 
Thank-you.


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## darkwillow (Apr 12, 2009)

I agree with Spirithorse. When we are with horses, we are the herd leader and they look to us to gauge our reaction to things. If we hear a whip crack and we jump, 99% of the time, the horse will jump too. If we are nervous, then they think that maybe we are not a good leader and will take over as the leader. This is sometimes seen as bad manners, but is usually because the horse doesn't trust our leadership abilities.
Australian NH trainer Carlos Tabernaberri says that 'we should not punish the horse for reacting to our reactions'. For example, the owner is nervous and jumpy on a windy show day. A bag flies past and the horse, seeing that the owner is nervous, assumes they aren't a good leader and tries to bolt. The owner sees this as being naughty, flighty or silly. Two things can happen. The owner can hit the horse. The horse will probably stand still again, but the next time a bag flies past they will have the same response. Or the owner can prove to the horse that the bag is not going to hurt. This also comes with a relaxed owner. Next time the bag flies past, the horse will understand that the bag won't hurt them.
The 'founder' of NH, Pat Parelli (apparently he's big over in America), says that NH is about rejecting force as a training tool. I don't follow Parelli because it's becoming very commercial, but I do follow the basics.
As for the ruined horse...even after we got his back fixed, he still bucked because he was expecting to get hit. Yes, it is natural instinct for the horse to be checked for pain, but no-one here, even the instructors, thought to check. Here in Australia, very little is known about chiropractors and their work. Since then I have made every effort to check for pain and to learn about it, but I was young and knew little.
I would like to add that the horse in question is going very well. Most would have sold him on, but he has potential and we kept him to help correct him. He's 15hh and has jumped 4'9!
________________
Confident, Consistent, Kind Leadership = Trust, Obedience and Respect


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## Misfit (Jun 29, 2009)

darkwillow said:


> I agree with Spirithorse. When we are with horses, we are the herd leader and they look to us to gauge our reaction to things.
> 
> _*Wait, didn't you say that horses see us as predators, and now you're saying we're the herd leaders. Furthermore, if they see as the herd leader, shouldn't we ACT like the herd leader? If a lower horse is disrespectful, they'll get a warning, then they get nailed.
> *_
> ...


I'd just like to make the point that none of us on here are horse abusers, horse beaters etc... Yes, I have had a few heafty 'conversations' between me, the horse and a dressage whip, but those were all for a specific reason. It wasn't because I lost my temper and wanted to beat the horse, it was because the horse said 'make me' and I said 'okay'. The horse knew the rules ("I will not try and kill the human"), the horse knew how to get out of that situation ("I will stop trying to run the human over when leading"), and it was done out of flat out disrespect. 

Like all training, it was as little force as possible, but it was as much as necessary. 

It's also important to understand what's going on inside your horse's head. You need to know when they're scared, when they're in pain, when they are confused and when they are being disrespectful. Only ONE of those situations could ever warrant flat out hitting a horse. 

A horse may get a light touch with a dressage whip if he's confused about going forward, but that's not force so much as a strong poke to get their attention. A 'yes, you're supposed to go forward' reminder.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

If Pat used any kind of force with his horses, they wouldn't act the way they do around him, especially his mare Magic. Magic is a very, very challenging, complicated, sensitve horse who would not even think to coming to Pat if he used force, and that goes for every one of his horses. So whoever this "very reliable source" is, they are full of bull if you ask me. If you stand back and watch and read Pat's horses, they'll tell you everything you need to know about the relationship.


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## goldilockz (Aug 1, 2008)

Spirithorse said:


> If Pat used any kind of force with his horses, they wouldn't act the way they do around him, especially his mare Magic. Magic is a very, very challenging, complicated, sensitve horse who would not even think to coming to Pat if he used force, and that goes for every one of his horses. So whoever this "very reliable source" is, they are full of bull if you ask me. If you stand back and watch and read Pat's horses, they'll tell you everything you need to know about the relationship.


Are you around those horses 24/7? How can you possibly know what he does every minute of every day with every one of his horses?


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## FlitterBug (May 28, 2009)

I am completely with Misfit on this one.

Yes, people start out as predators to horses, however, this is a barrier that is crossed, usually very early on in a horses life.

I have never seen disciplinary hitting used correctly ruin a horse. I have watched a CA clinic where he was repeatedly saying "whack him with that stick, whack him harder". 

I recently got a horse in for training, a 3 yr old that has never had any experience with a herd and walked all over her owner. In fact, she has even run over her owner. When she got to my house, you better believe that I would do whatever I had to in order to defend my space. After getting some herd manners from my herd (and yes, they did use force when a simple pinning of the ears didn't work) her overall energy changed because she didn't have that stress of being in charge any more. Horses don't like to be the one in charge, but a horse does require others to prove that they are responsible enough for the position.

On the other end of the spectrum, I have also worked with horses that were feral and had not broken that prey - predator barrier yet. Yes, if I ran after that horse kicking and screaming, I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't have made much progress. Patience, concentration, and persistence with a quiet energy is the beginning of getting through to these guys. Once that barrier is broken, then it switches from "ok, you are not a predator, but a member of the herd" to "just where in this herd do you stand, above me or below me?" The human has to be completely adaptable depending on what horse they are working with and where that horse is currently standing in the equation.

So no, hitting a horse to defend your personal well being will not ruin a horse, hitting a horse without meaning can, but if you've ever gotten a full blown kick from a horse, then you know they can endure some serious pain, much more than a slap from my hand could ever deliver, that is just more "hurt feelings".

As far as Parelli, I know some VERY RELIABLE sources on that subject. So I will just bow out and go with what I was told, "you can't show them how to fix what is wrong until they can see enough to realize it". I will say I would never encourage anyone to go in that direction.


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## Misfit (Jun 29, 2009)

Spirithorse said:


> If Pat used any kind of force with his horses, they wouldn't act the way they do around him, especially his mare Magic. Magic is a very, very challenging, complicated, sensitve horse who would not even think to coming to Pat if he used force, and that goes for every one of his horses. So whoever this "very reliable source" is, they are full of bull if you ask me. If you stand back and watch and read Pat's horses, they'll tell you everything you need to know about the relationship.


How do you explain people who smack their horses, who have GREAT relationships with their horses?

I agree with goldilockz here. How can you be so sure what Pat's horses are like, or what happens behind the scenes?


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

^^ He he. _'Behind the Scenes" _Would be a great 'Parelli basher' wouldn't it?


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

FlitterBug said:


> I am completely with Misfit on this one.
> 
> Yes, people start out as predators to horses, however, this is a barrier that is crossed, usually very early on in a horses life.
> 
> ...


VERY well said, Flitterbug!  I agree 100%!

I do give my horse a smack if he invades my space. There is always a warning before the smack, the horse always understands why he got smacked. I think I have a good relationship with him, especially for the few weeks I've owned and worked with him. He comes right up to me in the pasture, I can enter the stall when he's laying down and "bond" with him in that position, he follows me around at liberty in the arena. We can do grooming and showmanship class exercises/patterns tackless. He accepts treats by hand politely and happily, without being "nosey" or pushy. I can walk into his paddock with a bucket of grain and cross the paddock without being mown over. Yes, I do smack if he needs it, but he doesn't fear me in the least, and he knows where the line in the sand is. Does he "love" me? I don't know, but I do know that he trusts and respects me in most situations.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

I do not consider CA a NH trainer. Not at all. He doesn't even consider himself NH.

If Pat were to do something bad behind the scenes, it would be evident in the way his horses acted around him when he went on tour. The horses he has, for the most part, were all "damaged" and "trash" when he got them, so they are extremely sensitive and very challenging. They won't lie, and if Pat were to do something, those horses would remember it and not trust him. It would take him a heck of a long time to get that trust and rapport back with those horses.


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## darkwillow (Apr 12, 2009)

Whilst Parelli isn't my favourite NH trainer, Spirithorse is right in saying that it would be noticeable in his horses if he did use force. Horses have very long memories, and once trust is lost it is difficult to get back.
I noticed that everyone appears to be attacking my posts =P. I'm aware that everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I'm not trying to change it. I'm merely stating what I've seen and noticed, and that NH has lost some of what it's trying to achieve.
________________
Confident, Consistent, Kind Leadership = Trust, Obedience and Respect


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## Misfit (Jun 29, 2009)

How do you tell if someone has hit their horse? I'm serious here. I have seen people who hit their horses frequently, and they have GREAT relationships with their horses. Their horses follow them around all over the place, horse comes running up to them, horse trusts them completely. 

For example, my friend has an amazing relationship with her horses. Yet, she is not afraid of smacking them when they cross the line. 

Here are two vids of her working her horses: 



 




The first mare was BADLY abused when she got her. Hated people, nearly impossible to work with, and more than a little dangerous (bucked, bit, reared, kicked... you name it, she did it). This mare is now a 2D barrel horse and much better off. This mare has had more than a few 'come to jesus meetings' about various behaviors. Yet, she has no lasting side effects.

DarkWillow: I'm sorry if you feel that I am attacking your posts. I find debate works better when we discuss everything point by point, that way we get a more total overview of what one is saying.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Hmm.I would look scared with that "thing" following me. Someone needs some jumping lessons too.


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

But a slap in response to an attempted kick or bite is way, way worse than 250 lbs slamming down on the horses back. Yuppers...


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## Joshie (Aug 26, 2008)

Horses are NOT children. They are not humans with fur. Pack/herd animals need a leader. If you're not the alpha horse, you're going to have problems eventually. 

For a prey animal, how is it less traumatic to be chased by a huge green ball than it is to be smacked when they get into your space? See the fear on that horse's face? 

Our Joshua loves my daughter. Her favorite thing is to walk around the round pen and have him follow her like a puppy dog. Guess what? She has had to smack him when he got into her space. But that boy loves her. Scared of her? No. She is a little girl, just over 50" tall. She has poor motor skills. She can control this a four year old 15 hand horse. She can ride him with a saddle and without. 

The only similarity I see between horses and children is that those who do not demand respect from their horses are like those parents who want to be their child's friend instead of parent. That may be why we have so many disrespectful and lazy children. 

Horses need a leader, not a peer. 

We all have our own philosophies. I think this thread shows why it's a good idea to get a horse from someone with a similar horsey philosophy.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Cat said:


> But a slap in response to an attempted kick or bite is way, way worse than 250 lbs slamming down on the horses back. Yuppers...


OR, the long shanked curb bit that is being yanked on too. Parelli has a horse that gaped it's mouth!? OMG!!

I punish my horses as necessary when they really misbehave. All of mine that I ride (Denny, Dobe, Koda) were farther into the fear spectrum when I got them. Denny had been horribly abused, Dobe had never been touched, and Koda had very little handling more than 4 years ago. Until they learned what was expected of them, I never hit them because they were scared enough already. However, once they figured out that they didn't need to fear me, they started to test me. Dobe was a leaner and personal space invader. He figured out that I was a member of his herd and not a predator so he started to try to assert his dominance. He walked into me one time and stepped on my foot. I slapped the crap out of his shoulder and then ran at him while tapping him on the chest making him back up. I did that for about 20 steps then just stopped everything and let him think for a minute. When he stood still, I went up and gave him a scratch on the shoulder to say "Okay, you screwed up and got punished but everything is okay now." He has never offered to invade my space again. 
Denny started to be a real bear to catch. He would stand like an angel until I got my arm around his neck and then he would take off. He wasn't afraid of anything, he just was being a butt. So I put him in a round pen and walked up to catch him. When he took off and turned his butt to me, he got a huge pop with the lead rope and I continued to MAKE him lope around the round pen. Every time he would try to stop, I would encourage him to really move and if he didn't, he got popped again on the butt. It only took a couple of times of this for him to figure out that it was not okay to lunge away from me just to avoid being caught. Now, he is a statue when I walk up to him even in a 30 acre pasture.
All of mine get a small pop every now and then just to remind them when they step over the line. And as you can see, they are scarred for life and absolutely terrified of me.


















What ruins a horse is not that they _were_ hit, it is _when_, _why_, and _how_ _forcefully_. Giving a horse a pop on the shoulder when he is ignoring rules that he knows is completely different from hitting a horse for every little indescretion like continuing to swish his tail after you put your hand on his butt or spooking at a loud noise. That is how Denny was abused. His owner talked her "cowboy" boyfriend into trying to train him. Every time Denny would spook and jump, the guy would get scared, jump, and beat Denny as punishment for spooking. He even broke one of his teeth with a 2x4. Yet, I can ask him for anything and he has not been afraid of me since after the first few times I messed with him. He will still get a pop when he breaks a rule that he knows but he is far from "ruined".

I understand that the anti-force NH followers seem to have had good luck with your methods and I applaud you for it. But, for it to be said that someone who gives a horse a smack when they need it is cruel, ignorant, or not a true horseman is just as offensive as when someone tells you that fluffy tactics don't work and you are silly for using them. I know that I have been guilty of the latter in the past but I think that everyone needs to look at the other side of the coin for a minute. Every horse is different and every particular method of training is different. No one method will work on every horse and not every method will work on one horse. That is why it is so important to understand horse dynamics and instincts. Some horses have to be punished for bad behavior and others freak at the slightest hint of force. IMHO, no one person can be a true horseman until they have mastered the entire spectrum.


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## PalominoStarsky (Dec 18, 2008)

Well said, smrobs! And your horses look completely terrified...haha.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

smrobs said:


> What ruins a horse is not that they _were_ hit, it is _when_, _why_, and _how_ _forcefully_. .


 
Couldn't agree more and would like to add to your list is inconsistant corrections. To give even a small smack for doing something your horse should not do ( this would be a correct action) then not correcting them when they do the same thing is just as bad as over correcting. 

In my case my horse knows when he has done something he shouldn't. I can take my whip and wave or swish it anywhere around him. Close to his ears or up and down near his face and he won't bat an eye. BUT if he has done somthing he shouldn't have I just have to show him the whip and you can see him back up knowing he snuck in something bad.

A horse trained to the whip is not afraid of the whip but DOES respect it and that comes only from a trainer that has used it to train or correct, never to abuse or beat.


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## goldilockz (Aug 1, 2008)

I feel bad for that horse in that picture with the big green ball.


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## FlitterBug (May 28, 2009)

I just realized something. The original question was why force. Then, even in the OPs opening thread, it turned into "hitting is wrong". Really, we are dealing with two very different situtations here.

Like many times in horse training, we looked at the wrong thing, not what is causing the problem, but just how to make it go away.

Force itself does not necesarrily mean hitting. I have seen many people force a horse to do something without hitting it. What is that they say? Make the wrong thing hard and the right thing easy? But there are so many determining factors on why they are doing the wrong thing in the first place. For example, it is damaging to do lateral work without proper flexion. It requires a certain level of fitness, as the hind leg is made of only one ball and socket joing, two hinge joints, and one gliding. The axial roation through this joint is limited, yet many trainers, especially NH trainers, have the horse "disengage" or "sidepass over a row of barrels", learning to do this by giving to pressure, despite the unnatural movement to the horse. Isn't that another form of force? I have ridden for over 20 yrs, and I can't remember ever watching a horse walk sideways "naturally" in the pasture besides mabey one or two steps to get away from another horse. I have seen the damage done to the horse by performing these manuevers in excess without the proper physical preperation, and its pretty rough. 

You don't have to hit in order to force, and the hitting that we have been talking about for the majority of this thread had more to do with discipline than force.

So to answer the actual question acurately, horses give to force, they respond to get the pressure taken aways despite the vulnerable position that it may put them in in the long run. 

Force through abuse is wrong, however, force without abuse without completely understanding the physical dynamics of the mind that you are trying to capture is also wrong. Smacking as discipline will not ruin a horse when the horse is putting the human at risk, however beating a horse into a trailer will not make it easier next time and will usually make the horse even more scared around trailers. Horses that try to please people will make themselves go lame if the people don't know enough to guide the horse physically.

If you don't look at the problem, but instead what caused the problem, you will be facing a longer road. The word "force" can be understood in many ways.


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## darkwillow (Apr 12, 2009)

I would like to point out to Flitterbug that force and pressure are two different concepts. Force is giving the horse no option and no chance to think about the situation. Pressure gives the horse an oppurtunity to respond. Many people also associate force as hitting...mostly. =]


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

I agree...force, to me, implies or carries the implication that the horse will have NO option but to respond in a certain fashion (such as the recent posting on getting a horse to lay down...). If a horse has no other way to respond, but in a certain fashion, that is what I would consider being forced into something. And I don't really think that is ever necessary in training a horse... 

Giving a horse pressure, and giving him the choice to respond to light (or progressive) pressure cues, is not wrong in my opinion. My new horse, a 7 year old Appy, is finally 'getting' how to be soft on the longe line; he came to me not knowing how to stop, or turn in a respectful way (he would just keep running, or try to plow over me in his effort to keep going in his chosen direction), so I had to use more pressure on his halter, and had to use my longe whip to direct his motion more, and sometimes had to use it to push his shoulder away from me, so he wouldn't plow over me. Well, today, when I was longing him, something finally clicked, and when I asked him to stop, he did so nicely and turned in toward me, and when i pointed in the opposite direction, and kissed, he went without me having to raise the whip, or shake the longe line! I always gave him that option before, but he never took it...now he has, and I was sooooo proud of him for doing that! Horses are not overgrown dogs, and although they shouldn't be beaten or abused, you may sometimes have to put some extra pressure on them to get them to respond, but the payoff will eventually be a horse who will know how to respond to slight pressure (if you've gone from light to firm, in the first place).


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

Actually Flitterbug is correct - "The word "force" can be understood in many ways."

Look it up in the dictionary. Pressure could easily be classified under force. Even verbal words can be forceful. 

Even in simple physics the definition is: an influence on a body or system, producing or tending to produce a change in movement or in shape or other effects. 

So a basic aid is a type of force by that definition.


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## FlitterBug (May 28, 2009)

Thank you Cat. I stand by my statement that pressure can be seen as force. I have heard many people say "apply the pressure until you get the response that you want". It may not be "striking" force, but you are still leaving one option for the horse. It may have the opportunity to try different things before the pressure goes away, but ultimately, you have "forced" the horse to do what you wanted it to if you have succeeded in the original task.

Not only that, but you completely missed my point about many trainers, including NH trainers force the horse to do things that are actually harmful to their bodies. It may not be through aggressive blows with a whip, chasing them through something, but by simply expecting them to give to pressure. Even teaching a horse to soften to the bit can be seen as force. "Apply pressure until they soften" What they don't mention is that when they soften, they are breaking at c3, which is very uncomfortable for them. Correctly, the horse will lift its back, stretch its topline, and lift through c6 and c7 to achieve that much desired headset. So, all of these horses bending in the wrong place are actually usually bracing in their lower neck, pulling with their front legs and torquing their whole system, all just because they have learned to "give to pressure". They had no option but to give to the pressure to make it go away, therefore, in my opinion, this is force.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

We also have to look at how force vs. pressure effects the horse's mind. If you use force, the horse has no say and you are supressing him, basically making him a puppet. With pressure, the horse does have a say, he can rear and buck and throw a temper tantrum, but I'm not going away, nor will I increase the pressure, I just stay the same. I do not get emotional, I do not get loud or aggressive, I just stay calm and laugh at the situation. THAT'S leadership. Sure, the horse will eventually do what we had in mind, but we did not force him to do it. We did not force our will upon him and make the alternative bad, we simply made it a little uncomfortable in varying degrees but never so much that it causes harm to the horse mentally, emotionally or physically. Horses are motivated by pressure, but the release of that pressure is what teaches. I'll take that one further and say that the way the pressure is applied plays a part in how/what the horse learns.


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## goldilockz (Aug 1, 2008)

Rearing and bucking in response to _pressure _is *dangerous*, and if he chooses that route, he gets force. A horse will not be harmed mentally if he gets a smack or a pinch in response to his tantrum that puts me or others in danger. 

Pressure can also be described in many different ways. A smack is a varying form of pressure, so really, we're all on the same page here.


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## Joshie (Aug 26, 2008)

mom2pride said:


> I agree...force, to me, implies or carries the implication that the horse will have NO option but to respond in a certain fashion (such as the recent posting on getting a horse to lay down...). If a horse has no other way to respond, but in a certain fashion, that is what I would consider being forced into something. And I don't really think that is ever necessary in training a horse...


I have to wholeheartedly disagree with you here. I think it's pretty important to "force" a horse to make the right decision. I want my horse to think that the decision I want him to make is the only decision. Horses, after all, can kill you due to their very size.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> If you use force, the horse has no say and you are supressing him, basically making him a puppet.





> With pressure, the horse does have a say, he can rear and buck and throw a temper tantrum, but I'm not going away, nor will I increase the pressure, I just stay the same. I do not get emotional, I do not get loud or aggressive, I just stay calm and laugh at the situation. THAT'S leadership. Sure, the horse will eventually do what we had in mind, but we did not force him to do it.


I don't agree here. Not taking the pressure away until the horse does what is asked is not giving a choice. It's saying do what I want or this pressure WON'T go away. Seems pretty forceful to me.

Force is used in all training to varying degrees, NH definately included.

I agree with Flitterbugs posts.


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## ChingazMyBoy (Apr 16, 2009)

Misfit said:


> The way I see it, in order to train, we need to relate to horses in a manner they understand.
> 
> Watch a herd of horses. Horse gets too close, first they get a warning. Second they get nailed with a hoof.
> 
> ...


I agree with what you have said.


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## darkwillow (Apr 12, 2009)

these are interesting points. There are two streams of thought coming from this and it's interesting to see where people sit on this subject. I'm personally with mom2pride on this one... It all depends on what you've learnt...Anky van Grunsven probably thinks hers isn't force either.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Joshie said:


> I have to wholeheartedly disagree with you here. I think it's pretty important to "force" a horse to make the right decision. I want my horse to think that the decision I want him to make is the only decision. Horses, after all, can kill you due to their very size.


I agree with this. I don't care what you want to call it. My decision on something is the only decision that counts and he will do as I want regardless if he wants to or not. As for a puppet again I don't care, a thinking horse can get you in trouble quickly.
Force pressure , all he same to me


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

Joshie said:


> I have to wholeheartedly disagree with you here. I think it's pretty important to "force" a horse to make the right decision. I want my horse to think that the decision I want him to make is the only decision. Horses, after all, can kill you due to their very size.


Yes, I do agree with you in that they can kill you or I...and I guess that's where the agreement stops. I've seen how the old timer's 'broke' their horses, and it ain't for me, I can tell you that right now.


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## darkwillow (Apr 12, 2009)

Yes horses can kill you but most won't, and those that have is mostly accidental. I have met plenty of horses, but I have yet to meet a horse that is genuinely nasty.

I believe in asking a horse to make the right decision. I have a little nervous pony. You can't 'force' her to make the right decision (push or pull) because she panics and fights. Instead, you have to make the other decision harder. For example, she had a fear of floats. If she didnt go in, she trotted in circles, yielded, backed up, and the only time she got a rest was on the float. She figured out it was easier just to get on. Three days later and she has no problems. =P

That's just my opinion. Everyone is different and i believe in allowing people to use the method that works best for them.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> Yes horses can kill you but most won't, and those that have is mostly accidental


I don't give a flying pig if a horse *accidentally* puts me in a life threataning situation, they are going to learn quick smart that it was not a good idea and it would be life threatening for them to repeat it!

Apart from that I agree with the last line of your post :]


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## FlitterBug (May 28, 2009)

It only takes one time to die. And no, I have not met a genuinely nasty horse, but I have met plenty of misguided, mistreated, defensive, or disrespectful horses. I specialize in problem horses, I have met plenty of horses that would like to stomp me into the ground at the sight of a person. Are the genuinely nasty? No, they actually usually turn into amazing horses, but in that moment I will do whatever I need to do to protect myself. Not one horse that I have every worked with ever resented me for that, but rather respected me.

People say that you can't compare horses to children, but you can compare their psyche. I know one trainer that encourages people new to horses to watch the show "super nanny". I work with a lot of kids and teens also, and the similarities between horses and kids is uncanny. When left without structure, guidance, and discipline, both horses and kids go a little nuts. When given a solid leader, consistent in everything they do, both horses and kids flourish. They want the guidance, the support, and their whole attitude will change when that is offered.

Every horse that I train, I train to the point that I would feel safe handing the lead rope to my 5 yr old cousin (I don't hand him all the horses, but keep him in mind when I am training them because I never know whats going to happen when they leave my barn.) Yes, I am very firm with my horses, and I will not deny "force". However, I know I've gotten through to a horse when I take a horse lower on the pecking order will take a blow from another horse before stepping into my space. I will of course protect that horse from the more dominant horse before they actually do anything.

Horses find relaxation through safety, they feel safe when they are confident in their leader and have structure in their lives. Any horse that is aggressive, pushy, or nervous has not achieved this completely. Any horse that is refusing to go where the leader is guiding them has not achieved this completely. Every horse has a full deck of cards. Every horse has the potential to be that horse that is unshaken when a bomb goes off. 

So, back to force. I have seen people tie horses heads around for extended amounts of time to "teach it a lesson". That is an uneducated form of force and in my opinion is very wrong. However, when I was a child, I was given options, but I was basically forced upon the right path by the consience that my parents developed on me. For horses, they are forced by simply not being given that other path the whole "I'm not going to leave you alone until you make the right choice". This isn't a bad form of force, but ultimately is still force. It can be wrong if the person asking them to do the task isn't educated in the result that it may have on the horse itself, as horses will jeopardize their bodies quite a bit for people. However, when I am on a horses back and won't move until they shift away from my weight to straighten their body, I have forced that horse to do that, and it was the best decision for the horse. 

There are so many different ways to take this question about force, mainly because there are so many variables. Not just on if force is right or wrong, but when and how much force is justified. I promise you that when a horse comes at me with on its hind legs with front hooves swinging, I will use whatever force necessary to protect myself. I don't want to go on my "chance" that most won't kill me.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Flitter, I _have_ met some truely nasty horses. Living with a professional horse trainer who specialized in working with problem horses and horses that other people deemed "killers", you will see some things that most people could never imagine. I have been around some truely killer horses that were so spoiled to the point of being incredibly dangerous. I can attest that there are certain circumstances where simple pressure just doesn't work, regardless of how hard or which way you pressure them. There does come a point when it is either you or them. The most memorable dangerous horse I ever heard about was one that my Dad showed back in the '70s. It was an Appy stallion by the name of American Quest. He had been so spoiled from the day that he was born that he was truely dangerous. He would behave fine so long as you went where he wanted, when he wanted, and how fast he wanted. The instant that you said "no, we need to go this way" he would turn downright vicious and try to attack you. His "trainer" before Dad got there would let him chew on his shirt sleeve or his jacket or eat an entire leather show lead during the course of one halter class just to keep him calm. You had to be completely on your guard every moment you were around him because if he thought that you weren't watching or if you relaxed for even a single second, he would try to kill you. I won't go into details of what happened to the horse under training with my Dad but needless to say, he learned to respect him. Eventually, he won the worlds in jr western pleasure and placed in halter. He also got points in calf roping. However, within 3 months of when Dad left the farm where he was, American Quest was dead from a "mysterious" blister beetle infestation. I will believe until the day I die that he was killed because no one could handle him. He sent one "trainer" to the hospital for a long time after Quest got him down in the stall and nearly killed him. 











> There are so many different ways to take this question about force, mainly because there are so many variables. Not just on if force is right or wrong, but when and how much force is justified. I promise you that when a horse comes at me with on its hind legs with front hooves swinging, I will use whatever force necessary to protect myself. I don't want to go on my "chance" that most won't kill me.


Exactly. Excellent post flitter.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

darkwillow said:


> Yes horses can kill you but most won't, and those that have is mostly accidental. I have met plenty of horses, but I have yet to meet a horse that is genuinely nasty.
> 
> .


I have bought 2 in my life that the seller used the word KILL when I bought them. I got a good price.
Both became sweet hearts within the month. Did/will I use force?? Most definitely.


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## darkwillow (Apr 12, 2009)

I'm not saying that force doesn't work, I'm merely saying that I've found not using force to get the results I want. I would also like Flitterbug to know that when asking for the right decision, I prefer to use an on-off pressure. If you used constant pressure with Twilight, she merely fights back. This way, I'm not 'forcing' the horse to make the right decision, I'm giving them an oppurtunity to think for themselves. I like my horses to be smart!! =]


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

darkwillow said:


> . If you used constant pressure with Twilight, she merely fights back. This way, I'm not 'forcing' the horse to make the right decision, I'm giving them an oppurtunity to think for themselves. I like my horses to be smart!! =]


If I start a horse it is something I intend to keep for life . I will put an easy $50,000 plus in a horse over it's life time. I don't spent the time and then sell. So I carefully pick my boy, no mares , boys only but I hobble them the first time I see them. It is part of my selection process and if the horse fights the hobbles he is not the right temperment for me. I also blind fold right off the bat to see if they fight that too.
Why waste time on something that will fight/panic. Sure it is nice to have pets but to get a real working horse, one you keep for 20 years make your selection carefully and reject anything that doesn't match your idea of a perfect horse. 
As for smart. Yes I want a smart horse, one that learns in only 2 or 3 tries . But a horse that is thinking too much tries to anticpate your next move and reacts before you actually tell him to.
I want a horse that responds only to a cue and not try to outthink you.
If I say side pass two steps to the right and halt, that is what I want, unloading I want one step , then another, not a rush off the trailer.
Teach a horse to do gates and then try another type of gate. If the horse is thinking too much he will do the gate on his own and screw it up if the pattern requires changing.
A horse or dog that listens to commands, not trying to out think you will be better at various task then one that tries thinking on it's own.
This is from over 50 years of experience talking


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

The only way you are giving your horse a ‘choice’ is if you are willing to accept their reaction either way. What your horse is really doing when you think you are giving them a choice, is making a ‘guided decision’.

A mounted games coach I ride under who coaches international teams has a saying he likes to repeat: “Never put the horse in a position where it has to make a choice”. He says it in regards to riding mounted games, but it can be applicable to any part of horse training. He uses the example of a person riding straight at a tree; If left up to the horse, it gets confused, wobbles side to side, and ducks out at the last minute which will often result in a fall, but if the rider takes control of the situation, that is avoided. A horse making a choice can be a dangerous thing. I can think of only one discipline off the top of my head where it is a good thing for the horse to make a choice, and this is cutting. Yet these choices are still conditioned into the horse… So still not a ‘free choice’. Horses don’t have advanced problem solving like predators, as I heard once; they never have to chase down grass! So ‘allowing my horse to make a choice’ is not really an accurate statement. They aren’t conditioned to problem solve.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Riosdad, good post! I ride working stockhorses and I own one working dog, my dad four, and anticipation is a big problem. My dad's old working dog Tuff thinks he knows where dad wants the sheep, and if he wants them somewhere different, it takes a lot of yelling (the dog is going deaf) to get him to listen. The problem can be the same with working horses, the gate example is a good one, also working patterns.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

I only have my opinion and that will not really effect how each of you chooses to handle force in your life.

When I here the word "Force" I think of the word "Control" and I can not help but think how people choose to deal with each other and horses.

I used to deal with horses with force and very traditional methods of training.
I don't any more.
Force does not work for me any more.
The idea of "Natural Horsemanship to me is to ALWAYS look at the situation starting from the horses point of view.
If other people are not comfortable with that then so be it.

I do not think force,I think partnership and mutual respect.
I do not seek to control as I look for cooperation and trust.
If I don't have it today then I look for it tomorrow.
Horses don't wear watches.


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## LoveTheSaddlebreds (Jul 9, 2009)

If you think natural horsemanship shouldnt force horses, when natural horsemanship is immitating what horses do naturally, then you should sit out in a field and watch horses behave. The lead horse (wich should be you when training) is allowed to push other horses around. If he feels like drinking and theres another horse already drinking, he will bite the drinking horse and push him out of the way to get a drink.

One time, I let Angel out into a fairly large pasture (probly 2-3 acres large) full of grass everywhere. She went to where Cat (tb in field) was and kicked her and started grazing exactly where Cat was. There was no reason at all for this except that she was dominant and could push Cat around. So I went up to Angel and shooed her away and stood in the same spot she was in, just because I could do it.

Its not mean to force a horse to do something. Horses dont see anyone else as an equal, theres always higherarchies (whoa sp) in the horse world. In fact, if a horse sees you as his dominant, he will feel more relaxed around you, because the leader looks out for danger and if the lead horse is relaxed the other horses dont see reason for panic.


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## FlitterBug (May 28, 2009)

Good post lovesaddlebreds. I agree completely.

I used to ride with a reining trainer that said "this horse and I are not partners. Until this horse starts putting in as many hours in the day, makes some meals for me, and brings in as much money as I do, we are not partners. I am his leader, I can be a fair leader, I can be an educated leader, but I am still the leader and the one to make the decisions that are best for both of us".

I had never heard it put that way before, but once I did, I agreed. From that moment on, I started treating my horses differently and they were happier for it. They are more secure when the leader is in control.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

All of you are certainly entitled to your opinion,But this is the "Natural Horsemanship" section of the forum and I doubt if your arguments will change my mind or other that have made a choice about force.I am much older that many here and have worked horses your way for many years.
I will not any more.

The main argument seems to be that 

The horse is heaver.....fear
Someone is making too much money.... envy
Horses do it to horses.....people do it to people also and it still is not nice.


I use other ways.


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## goldilockz (Aug 1, 2008)

I don't think anyone is expecting to change others' opinions. Just having a discussion.  I like hearing how others do it, and I am always open to new suggestions/tactics when it comes to my hosses.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Well said Marecare! I completely agree!


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Since using NH instead of the methods I was using before, I actually feel safer around horses. I'm doing things today that years ago I would have called someone crazy for. I'm handling horses now that I never dreamed I could help, let alone train. People say that this or that is dangerous, regarding NH folks, but really it's not dangerous if you have prepared yourself and your horse for it. Like with my appy for instance, before he started going blind I was able to jump him bridleless and have him stop, turn and face then go right back over it and stay cool, calm and collected (mentally and emotionally). When I first started taking riding lessons (jumping) the thought of doing it bridleless was ridiculous to me because 1) why would you want to do that in the first place?, 2) you can't do that in the show ring so why bother?, and 3) you would have no control if the horse spooked or started being naughty. What I didn't know was the true answer behind my questions. You would want to do it because it's a true test of your relationship and communication with the horse......so what if it's not allowed in the show ring? Freestyle riding makes your Finess riding better, and it's fun!......and if the relationship is strong and true as it should be, the horse will be mentally and emotionally collected and would not think about being naughty and we would notice if the horse became unconfident and fix it before doing anything else, thus preventing problems from even coming up in the first place.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Then spirit, isn't it funny how I can do the same bridleless riding with control, confidence and relaxation, yet i didn't have to use NH to get there? Just good common sense horsemanship?

Marecare, it seems to me the main argument is that using force IS natural to horses, not about fear, or money, or envy. You really can't compare people to horses in relation to what they do to each other; People do a lot of things that they shouldn't. 

Problem solving and games are NOT natural to horses. They do not have a brain in anyway similar to a predator; They do not have to chase, trick or trap food, it is simply there for them. This means they have a very different brain from any predator animal, and the ideas of problem solving etc do not translate.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

I use force when I am lifting the garbage can or taking a tire off a tractor,but learned many years ago that using it on people or dogs or horses is folly.
There is always a price to pay in the long run.

I work with what I have and have a wonderful herd of well gentled horses that share this ranch with me.
Each one has they opinions and dislikes,but then I do also.

We work it out and enjoy each other and there is a great sense of cooperation.

I try to set an example to the borders here,but have asked a few to leave when they start wrecking my happiness with hitting.


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## goldilockz (Aug 1, 2008)

wild_spot said:


> Problem solving and games are NOT natural to horses.


This is very true.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> I work with what I have and have a wonderful herd of well gentled horses that share this ranch with me.
> Each one has they opinions and dislikes,but then I do also.
> 
> We work it out and enjoy each other and there is a great sense of cooperation.


Marecare, I can say with 100% confidence that this is exactly my situation also. Force-free or NH is not the only way to acheive this end.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Except I don't have a ranch :]


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

And this is where we are!

There are always different ways to approach problems.
We all have a choice and get to enjoy or regret those choices.


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## Jessabel (Mar 19, 2009)

There's a fine line between hitting and beating a horse. I'm sure we can all agree that beating a horse is never acceptable, but reprimanding a horse is perfectly fine. If my horses deliberately strike out at me, I _will_ kick the crap out of them. They need to know what's acceptable and what's not, and I make that very clear. Horses kick each other a lot harder than I ever could, so I'm not harming them. But it's enough to get the message across and it usually only takes one time. Vic tried to kick me once a long time ago, and I kicked him hard under the belly. He planted his foot right back down and never did it again. I rarely ever have to resort to hitting my horses, and it's because they know what will happen if they kick, bite, etc. I'm not saying it's right to act like a drill sergeant, but make the boundaries clear. My horses love me and we have a great relationship. It's pretty similar to a mare kicking or nipping her foal if he gets too rambunctious. Is the foal afraid of his mother? Of course not. Because he's bonded with his mom and he knows he won't get kicked unless he does something to deserve it. Same concept with pasture mates. They get one warning, then the next time they get nailed with teeth or a hoof. I wouldn't consider that _force_, though.

It's NEVER okay to hit a horse in the face, however. I actually know trainers who tell people to hit a horse in the nose with a crop as discipline. No wonder all those horses became headshy.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

The following words are not mine ,but are Leslie Desmonds.
She is the co-author of "Horsemanship through Feel" along with Bill Dorrance.

This is just one of several top horseman that choose not to use force.
I put this up to show that this idea is not just some fringe,extreme,and radical idea and this idea has been around a long time.

It is also not the only idea and I know that.

Would you like to learn how to release your horses to the desired maneuvers instead of forcing them? Can you depart at the gallop and ask for a one-stride stop without taking up the reins? If your approach to trailer loading, lead changes, the upwards and downward transitions is rough, this approach will get you off a plateau and moving ahead immediately. Does your horse need help getting back to a former state of happiness and safe behavior after trauma from accidents, mishandling and bad training experiences? If the answer is yes, then a feel-based approach will make a difference.  Leslie uses no flag, stick, whip or restraint devices to achieve submission. Why is this? . . . one could wonder. Submission cannot be the goal if partnership is..

Books


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Training by submission and reprimanding bad behavior are 2 completely different things. And what you have highlighted in red contradicts itself, just so you know. 

To properly train a horse, you have to encourage the correct response by applying pressure and the pressure does not release until desired action is shown. I would love for you to post video of a trainer that uses no method of pressure at all, because yes, pressure is a form of force.


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## sillysally (Feb 13, 2009)

wild_spot said:


> Problem solving and games are NOT natural to horses. They do not have a brain in anyway similar to a predator; They do not have to chase, trick or trap food, it is simply there for them. This means they have a very different brain from any predator animal, and the ideas of problem solving etc do not translate.


IDK, I used to have a standardbred that might disagree with you. He was intelligent and enjoyed using his brain, investigating his environment, being mentally stimulated, etc. Horses may not have the brain of a predator, but that does not mean that they do not problem solve.

There was an articale on The Horse website about equine learning, and they discussed problem solving: 

""One example of categorization might be horses learning to pick open-center shapes over solid ones regardless of the actual shape or its size, as occurred in one ERF study. "The ERF has also shown, for the first time, that horses are capable of some degree of conceptualization," said Hanggi. "In one groundbreaking experiment, horses demonstrated that they could solve problems using the concept of relative size. They were trained to always choose the larger (or smaller for one horse) object regardless of whether or not it was previously correct. This means that when a medium-sized circle was paired against a small circle, the medium one was correct. However, when the medium circle was paired against a large circle, the large (and not the previously correct medium) circle was correct. This relative class concept transferred to other shapes such as triangles, hexagons, and icons of U.S. states, as well as to three-dimensional real-life objects such as foam balls and plastic flower pots."

Source: The Horse | AAEP Convention 2005: Equine Learning Ability


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## sillysally (Feb 13, 2009)

I will say that I have found NH very helpful for ground work. My mare came back to me last year after living with a relative and their horses for several years. She had always had pretty good ground manners but while she was away they pretty much opened the barn doors and let the horses walk themselves to their stalls, so when we got her to her current barn and started hand leading her into her stall, she would just charge right in without regard for the halter or lead rope, who was leading her in, etc. We tried reinforcing our point with the stud chain and that only made things worse. Finally, we did some basic NH based ground work with her and (knock on wood) we have not had an issue with her since.

I think that whether it is OK to be physically forceful with a horse really depends on the horse and the person doing it. My old STB gelding is a pretty sensitive horse. He has had one farrier that would man handle him, and it never accomplished anything but making my gelding tense (where he had not been before) and suspicious around that farrier. With farriers who are calm and less interested in trying to physically force him, he stands much more quitely and has a whole different attitude.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

smrobs said:


> Training by submission and reprimanding bad behavior are 2 completely different things. And what you have highlighted in red contradicts itself, just so you know.
> 
> To properly train a horse, you have to encourage the correct response by applying pressure and the pressure does not release until desired action is shown. I would love for you to post video of a trainer that uses no method of pressure at all, because yes, pressure is a form of force.


I know a guy who is having his horse trained by a NH person who does this for a living. I asked how the training is comming and he said DULL They have been on the horse 32 times in the round pen and have yet to pull a rein. They just let the horse wander around with the rider going where ever the horse takes them??????????
No force whatever???

It's a joke. Paying someone big money and end up with nothing to show. I saw the results of $3000 worth of training over 3 months and the horse/trainer became the laughing stock of the barn.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

RiosDad said:


> I know a guy who is having his horse trained by a NH person who does this for a living. I asked how the training is comming and he said DULL They have been on the horse 32 times in the round pen and have yet to pull a rein. They just let the horse wander around with the rider going where ever the horse takes them??????????
> No force whatever???


 
:shock::? 32 times and not at least direct reining yet? Wow. Mine are usually neck reining in the first month or 2 depending on how often I actually get to ride them. Some of them make pretty darn good roping horses at 45 days. LOL.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

smrobs said:


> Training by submission and reprimanding bad behavior are 2 completely different things. And what you have highlighted in red contradicts itself, just so you know.
> 
> To properly train a horse, you have to encourage the correct response by applying pressure and the pressure does not release until desired action is shown. I would love for you to post video of a trainer that uses no method of pressure at all, because yes, pressure is a form of force.



This does require you to do a little work as you would have to read a bit about Leslie's method and even read a book or see a demo.

It is very easy to dismiss all of her work and Bill Dorrance also on a couple of Internet posts.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Marecare said:


> This does require you to do a little work as you would have to read a bit about Leslie's method and even read a book or see a demo.
> 
> It is very easy to dismiss all of her work and Bill Dorrance also on a couple of Internet posts.


What happened to just plain common sense?? A horse bits me and I smack him on the nose, a horse kicks me and I knee him hard. Just common sense and no reading.


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## sillysally (Feb 13, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> What happened to just plain common sense?? A horse bits me and I smack him on the nose, a horse kicks me and I knee him hard. Just common sense and no reading.


To me, it is common sense to always keep learning, even if it *does* require reading. What do you do if you come across a horse that does not respond well to man handling? Beat the snot out of him?

I always wonder at the fact that people are so quick to dismiss NH, and I'm not even a big NH person....


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

^^ You have to remember: NH = Just plain good horsemanship.

There is nothing natural about riding/handleing a horse.

I totally agree with the 'common sense' theory. It's what keeps us alive. Reading helps us learn things that eventually will become common sense. You might have to read to have common sense. All people are different.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

sillysally said:


> To me, it is common sense to always keep learning, even if it *does* require reading. What do you do if you come across a horse that does not respond well to man handling? Beat the snot out of him?
> 
> I always wonder at the fact that people are so quick to dismiss NH, and I'm not even a big NH person....



Good points Sally,
There are many different approaches to the NH thing and a person can just lump them all into one big pile and say things like we have all read on here.

The truth is that each trainer may have a very different approach to the same problem and very good results.

One example of this is Cute Pate.
He is not an advertised "Natural Horseman",but uses very soft methods and calls his system "Low stress training.

He is a spokesman for the AQHA and is also very down on the Predator/prey approach to training.
Some clinicians live by predator/prey.

If a person just wants to not read and inform themselves about the different styles then that is just fine by me,but don't brag about NOT seeking knowledge.


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

^^ And don't brag about getting knowledge as well.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

sunny06 said:


> ^^ And don't brag about getting knowledge as well.



You are right!

I will try to act dumber so no one will know that I have read hundreds of books on the subject.

Me not too smrt.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Smacking a horse when he bites is common sense to a predator. That's why it makes sense to people........but it doesn't work with prey animals.


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

Marecare said:


> You are right!
> 
> I will try to act dumber so no one will know that I have read hundreds of books on the subject.
> 
> Me not too smrt.


Who said that that was directed at you?


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

Spirithorse said:


> Smacking a horse when he bites is common sense to a predator. That's why it makes sense to people........but it doesn't work with prey animals.



And I can give anyone 5 world renowned authors and clinicians that agree with what Spirithorse just said as I know that my personal experience does not count to many of you.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

sunny06 said:


> Who said that that was directed at you?




^^^^
Arrows!


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

I was adding to what you said about bragging about what you DO NOT know.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

sillysally said:


> To me, it is common sense to always keep learning, even if it *does* require reading. What do you do if you come across a horse that does not respond well to man handling? Beat the snot out of him?
> 
> ....


I read constantly. I have never in my 51 years of riding come across a horse that didn't respond to my training, never. I will ride just about anything that people ask me to as well as shoe almost anything, not that I always like that part but I don't say no. NO ONE has seen be beat a horse. I am just not good with a whip and feel it gets you nowhere.
Beating a horse and man handling are a long way apart. Tying a horse properly to a solid object that he can't break or move is man handling to you??? A quick knee to the rib cage for kicking is man handling again?? Poking the end of the brush I am using while groom when he snakes his head around and tried biteing is man handling??
Riding a run away and while in full flight yelling whoa and then setting the horse on his butt is man handling???

Then put me down as a man handler, but one that reads alot.

When your horse can set the standard in any barn then come talk to me about manhandling.


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

^^ So kicking a horse in the rib cage gets you somewhere? If it kicks you then yes, that is acceptable, IMO.


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

Spirithorse said:


> Smacking a horse when he bites is common sense to a predator. That's why it makes sense to people........but it doesn't work with prey animals.


Not to just jump in out of nowhere, but, how come I've seen hundreds of horses bite at each other, and then have the bite-ee give the bite-er a good slug to the shoulder and have it end the dispute? Seems like it makes pretty common sense to them... 

I don't like hitting my horse, but if he ever decides to test our arrangement and bites at me, you can bet your bottom dollar he'll get a smack to the shoulder. He knows his place without getting beaten, but there are some things that are just out of line. Any force should be as gentle as possible and as firm as neccesary. When I stare at Scout's hip and say "oh-VER," I am using force, whether I touch him or not. That is force as gentle as possible. When I repremand him for a potentially dangerous behavior, I do so in a manner that I can only say that I have seen lead mares use time and again with great success.

I suppose the long and short of the answer "Why Force" is simply: to get a response. The issue lies in the myriad of definitions for the word "force."

The most important thing to remember is that the horse NEVER learns from the application of force (of any definition ), but ALWAYS from the release of that force.


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

When people think 'force' some think abuse. That is not always the case. Like Scoutrider said, force can be as little as a command.


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## goldilockz (Aug 1, 2008)

I agree with what Scoutrider just said.


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

Spirithorse said:


> Smacking a horse when he bites is common sense to a predator. That's why it makes sense to people........but it doesn't work with prey animals.


Doesn't work? Even though horses don't have hands to "smack" with, they do have hooves and their teeth, etc. Ever just go out in the field and watch them interact? They sure do have their version of the smack (or worse) if someone lower in the herd should dare try to bite them. They understand it - if you do it right.

When Toby first came here he bit me on the chest - hard. My immediate reaction was to bop him on the nose a good one, step towards him and yell. All simultaneously. He was loose - we were working off-line in the arena and this reaction immediately sent him across the arena. In his mind he saw that his action didn't make me move and instead I made him move, and move a good distance at that.

Know what? He immediately came back over (remember - he was off-lead so I couldn't make him come back) and was a good boy. He has never tried to bite like that since - and it has been 5 years since that time. He follows me around the field, I can do our ground work completely off line with his full attention on me, and I can ride him bridle-less in the arena. I come home after being gone all day and he TRUMPETS at me wanting attention. 

We have a very close bond, yet I will use force when it is needed. I am consistent and fair with it, which is why he respects me. He understands I am the leader in our relationship and he is very comfortable with that.

There are many ways to succeed with horses in a fair manner. Spirithorse - you don't want people to tell you your way "doesn't work" when it works fine for you. Don't tell others that their way doesn't work either.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

See, the predator/prey thing to me just doesn't hold water. Being on a prey animals back is about the most frightening, mentally terrifying thing you can do to one, as that is what cougars etc. will do before ripping open a throat. A predator animal on a prey animals back is pretty much the few seconds before death. So I really don't understand how horses can so easily accpet being ridden, yet a smack is supposed automatically revert us to the predator/prey standpoint?


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Horses can bite and kick each other because *they are prey animals too.* There is no innate fear. Horses are born not trusting people b/c humans are predators....we look, smell, walk, and act like predators. We walk upright, have eyes on the front of our heads (where prey animals have them on the side of their head), we smell like meat and we are direct lined thinkers where horses are not. We act aggressive and we also sound like one, too. A simple "Quit!" sounds like a growl to a horse. So everything that comes naturally to us makes it clear to a horse that we are indeed a predator who can never be fully trusted. 

So a prey animal can bite another prey animal and have it be okay b/c they are the same species and there is no instinct of fear. But when a predator smacks a prey animal (usually with a negative emotion or a "growl") it does not do much good for the relationship and in some cases will make the horse fearful. Some horses will stop the behavior, not because they have "learned their lesson" but because they just go introverted and tune everything out. A lot of times this is very subtle and it appears the horse is being "obedient" when really he's just shut down to some degree.


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## sillysally (Feb 13, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> I read constantly. I have never in my 51 years of riding come across a horse that didn't respond to my training, never. I will ride just about anything that people ask me to as well as shoe almost anything, not that I always like that part but I don't say no. NO ONE has seen be beat a horse. I am just not good with a whip and feel it gets you nowhere.
> Beating a horse and man handling are a long way apart. Tying a horse properly to a solid object that he can't break or move is man handling to you??? A quick knee to the rib cage for kicking is man handling again?? Poking the end of the brush I am using while groom when he snakes his head around and tried biteing is man handling??
> Riding a run away and while in full flight yelling whoa and then setting the horse on his butt is man handling???
> 
> ...


It great that you are well read on horse behavior and training. However, it seems strange that you would then be so down on different methods.

What is or is not aversive depends largely on the individual horse. Yes, there are horses that will react badly to being smacked for kicking and biting--I have seen them do it. There are cases when being rough or forceful with a horse will only make the situation worse. On the other hand, there are situations where force may be what is best in the long run and the horse is better for it. It depends on the individual.

There are horses who are rarely or never struck and they have turned out to be perfectly well mannered horses. There are also plenty of horses that get smacked all the time that are *still* bratty as ever.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

sillysally said:


> .
> 
> There are horses who are rarely or never struck and they have turned out to be perfectly well mannered horses.
> .


How many times do you think you need to straighten a horse out??
For a kicker that up and boots you one ONE good knee in the ribs and you never have to do it again. Does that cover rarely

For a biter it MIGHT take a few times but if the one ONE time is a good one he doesn't bite any longer.

For a horse that doesn't want to tie a good solid tie and he is broke after a few attempts at breaking free. Again could this be considered rare if for the rest of his life he ties reliable??

25 years of hanging around boarding barns shows you a real cross section
of all types of so called trainers.. In the end if the person has enough problems I often get to deal with it.
50 years of working horses and you better come up with a good plan for making a horse. 

Pick a plan that works, get enough experience and eventually you can turn out reliable superior horses.

Once a horse realizes that you will not tolerate poor manners he usually remains broke for life. As for creating a shy horse I find that it does just the opposite and the horse forms a stronger bond for his master.

This is years of experience talking


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## 1dog3cats17rodents (Dec 7, 2007)

Spirithorse said:


> Horses can bite and kick each other because *they are prey animals too.* There is no innate fear. Horses are born not trusting people b/c humans are predators....we look, smell, walk, and act like predators. We walk upright, have eyes on the front of our heads (where prey animals have them on the side of their head), we smell like meat and we are direct lined thinkers where horses are not. We act aggressive and we also sound like one, too. A simple "Quit!" sounds like a growl to a horse. So everything that comes naturally to us makes it clear to a horse that we are indeed a predator who can never be fully trusted.
> 
> So a prey animal can bite another prey animal and have it be okay b/c they are the same species and there is no instinct of fear. But when a predator smacks a prey animal (usually with a negative emotion or a "growl") it does not do much good for the relationship and in some cases will make the horse fearful. Some horses will stop the behavior, not because they have "learned their lesson" but because they just go introverted and tune everything out. A lot of times this is very subtle and it appears the horse is being "obedient" when really he's just shut down to some degree.


 
Ever heard of domestication? Horses natural born fear of humans has almost entirely been bred out. Wolves are naturally scared of humans, but dogs aren't. Wild horses/prey animal are scared of humans, domestic horses aren't.


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## sillysally (Feb 13, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> How many times do you think you need to straighten a horse out??
> For a kicker that up and boots you one ONE good knee in the ribs and you never have to do it again. Does that cover rarely
> 
> For a biter it MIGHT take a few times but if the one ONE time is a good one he doesn't bite any longer.
> ...


I respect your experience, but again, I think it depends on the horse, no?

There are horses at the barn that have gotten more than a few "good" smacks for biting and they still do it--consistently. There is one TB mare that has always had issues with the farrier. We have had a couple of farriers decide they were going to "teach her who was boss" and they only made the situation worse. The more rough they got, the more upset and uncooperative she got. Last year she was sent by the BO to a pair of "cowboy" trainers and came back worse than when she left. A friend has several horses that consistently get in your space no matter what you do. 

Yes, many horses might be deterred from kicking again with a smack on the rump. However, in other cases there is just a lack of good ground training fundamentals/respect that no amount of striking is going to fix, and that is where other training methods can come into play IMHO.


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## sillysally (Feb 13, 2009)

1dog3cats17rodents said:


> Ever heard of domestication? Horses natural born fear of humans has almost entirely been bred out. Wolves are naturally scared of humans, but dogs aren't. Wild horses/prey animal are scared of humans, domestic horses aren't.


I don't know if I agree entirely with this. Yes, horses and dogs have been selectively bred over thousands of years to work and live with humans, but that does not mean that they lack natural fear of them. If that were the case then there would be no need for imprinting foals or habituating them to human handling. Dogs can face some definite issues later in live if not properly socialized as pups--fear issues are actually a major cause of aggression in dogs.


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

1dog3cats17rodents said:


> Ever heard of domestication? Horses natural born fear of humans has almost entirely been bred out. Wolves are naturally scared of humans, but dogs aren't. Wild horses/prey animal are scared of humans, domestic horses aren't.


Absolutely. You almost have to have a domestic horse that has NEVER had a good experience with a human to have a true prey animal reaction.

If a horse truly saw a human as a threatening predator, the fight/flight response would trigger. Then, there are 2 options. 1. Flee. Get the heck away from the human. The horse would be nowhere close enough to engage in any dangerous behavior to harm the human. Flight is, obviously, the preferred method of dealing with a threat for a horse, being a prey animal and all. Option 2. Fight. If a horse really wants to fight, the outcome is basically a maimed human. Nine times out of ten, the horse only fights if the flight option is gone, and then will only fight until flight becomes a viable option again. 

That is basic prey animal psychology. I have never seen a domestic horse have this sort of reaction to anything a human has done to it. If any horse had a true prey animal reaction, there would either be no opportunity for the human to be smacked, or the human would be no condition to smack the horse. 

What it seems like we are discussing is not a wild horse, but a domestic animal. Horses don't want to be the leader. It's a stressful place on the totem pole for them. But, even more than not wanting to lead, they don't want to die. That means that the horse will constantly be testing the horses (and humans) higher on the totem pole to make sure that they can keep him alive. He's willing to deal with the stress if it means safety. We, as handlers, have to instill the confidence in the horse that we will keep him safe. The pushyness that sometimes requires a firmer response from the handler is a result of the horse adopting us into their "herd," and testing our worthiness to ensure their personal (or, horsenal, if you prefer) safety. How does a fellow herd member respond? By affirming their own totem pole position. A lower horse (or human) will allow the pushyness and move out of the way, affirming the horse's dominant behavior over it. A higher horse will nip the dominant behavior in the bud, and put the horse back in his place.

When you cross from wild to domestic horses, you also cross from a predator/prey relationship (psychologically, not biologically :wink to a herd dynamic relationship. 

To flip the coin, do you see your horses as dinner? Your horses probably see it as equally absurd to think of you as a threatening predator.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

sillysally said:


> I respect your experience, but again, I think it depends on the horse, no?
> 
> 
> .


Of coarse it does. I took on an abused pony, one that no one could get near last fall. It was afraid of everything and everyone. Today it is a pain. You can't move in the field without it folding it's body around yours. In this case there is no way I could raise a hand to him. 
I also trimmed a hanovarian that I had to treat with kid gloves, get rough and it would fight back. There are horses that can take an occassional rough handling and then some never can. An experienced person can tell the difference.
I can tell the difference.


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> How many times do you think you need to straighten a horse out??
> For a kicker that up and boots you one ONE good knee in the ribs and you never have to do it again. Does that cover rarely
> 
> For a biter it MIGHT take a few times but if the one ONE time is a good one he doesn't bite any longer.
> ...


I never once had to slap, punch or kick Pride, the horse I lost this year, in all 3 years I owned him; he never needed those kinds of 'punishment'. And the one time I DID get frustrated with him, and slapped him on the neck, he reared up, did a turn on his hind quarters, and just over all freaked out...this was a horse who did not need methods like smacking and slapping to get a message across, and that time that I did slap him, he did know that it was me who had done it, and I had to work on some 'retrust building' right there. Pride was a soft, sensitive horse, who read his handlers emotions, and body language extremely well, and everyone who handled him he respected, so don't tell me that every horse 'needs' a 'harsh' hand to respect his handler. That horse is not the only horse in all my years of experience who was like that either...so you're not the only one talking from experience. I've not had a horse who I've trained, or owned, once I've had him for a while disrespect me, or those who I ask to handle him, and I don't beat anything into them...do I get firm sometimes in my body language, yes, sometimes you just have to, but do you always have to resort to the physical right away? Not necessarily.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

1dog3cats17rodents said:


> Ever heard of domestication? Horses natural born fear of humans has almost entirely been bred out. Wolves are naturally scared of humans, but dogs aren't. Wild horses/prey animal are scared of humans, domestic horses aren't.





sillysally said:


> I don't know if I agree entirely with this. Yes, horses and dogs have been selectively bred over thousands of years to work and live with humans, but that does not mean that they lack natural fear of them. If that were the case then there would be no need for imprinting foals or habituating them to human handling. Dogs can face some definite issues later in live if not properly socialized as pups--fear issues are actually a major cause of aggression in dogs.


I agree with both these posts up to a point. However, imprinting is necessary for _all_ young of _every_ species. Even humans. Have you ever met a human child who was terrified of everyone because they had no socialization growing up? Almost every animal can be domesticated to a point, even wild animals like tigers, cougars, and wolves. However, dogs, cats, and domesticated horses have been bred to be more open to socialization with humans, not to be unafraid of them. Their fight or flight reflexes have been muted after years of selective breeding and constant exposure to humans.


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

Spirithorse said:


> Horses can bite and kick each other because *they are prey animals too.* There is no innate fear. Horses are born not trusting people b/c humans are predators....we look, smell, walk, and act like predators. We walk upright, have eyes on the front of our heads (where prey animals have them on the side of their head), we smell like meat and we are direct lined thinkers where horses are not. We act aggressive and we also sound like one, too. A simple "Quit!" sounds like a growl to a horse. So everything that comes naturally to us makes it clear to a horse that we are indeed a predator who can never be fully trusted.
> 
> So a prey animal can bite another prey animal and have it be okay b/c they are the same species and there is no instinct of fear. But when a predator smacks a prey animal (usually with a negative emotion or a "growl") it does not do much good for the relationship and in some cases will make the horse fearful. Some horses will stop the behavior, not because they have "learned their lesson" but because they just go introverted and tune everything out. A lot of times this is very subtle and it appears the horse is being "obedient" when really he's just shut down to some degree.


Look, horses bite and kick each other because they are HORSES! THAT is the way they relate to each other. That is what THEY understand. They also have to learn what is and is not a REAL threat and will treat everything unfamiliar to them as a POTENTIAL threat until they determine one way or the other. Horses who are unfamiliar with sheep will treat this fellow "prey animal" as if it were a predator because they don't know that it isn't. Once a horse becomes familiar with sheep, it will not view it as a potential predator, but it won't view it as a fellow prey animal either - it will view it as a sheep! A sheep will behave like a sheep and all other sheep the horse encounters that smell and behave like a sheep will be identified as a sheep. He won't take each and every sheep thereafter as a potential threat each and every time he encounters one. And as for smelling like meat, I've seen horses eat hot dogs, lunch meat, even a hamburger. What makes you think they know what meat smells like or even what meat is? Let's not make things any more complicated than they have to be - horses are horses. They act like horses. They behave like horses. And if you understand HORSES, then it doesn't matter what YOU are. They will NEVER treat you like a predator unless YOU BEHAVE LIKE ONE! I seriously doubt that horses stand around worrying whether or not the next human they meet is the one that is going to eat them! They have never seen a human leap on a fellow herd mate and rip him to shreds. I think horses view us the way the view us and no one really knows what that is. I don't think they see us as predators...I think they see us as something they have to deal with, because in that regard, they don't have a choice and that's about it.


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## darkwillow (Apr 12, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> So I carefully pick my boy, no mares , boys only but I hobble them the first time I see them. It is part of my selection process and if the horse fights the hobbles he is not the right temperment for me. I also blind fold right off the bat to see if they fight that too.
> Why waste time on something that will fight/panic. Sure it is nice to have pets but to get a real working horse, one you keep for 20 years make your selection carefully and reject anything that doesn't match your idea of a perfect horse.


99% of the time, horses will fight. It's in their nature. When they are trapped, they recognise that they become more vulnerable to predators, so they fight to escape. Using hobbles is not part of natural horsemanship. I don't agree with it, and I don't believe it is necessary.
As for perfect, no horse is perfect. They're all different. They're good at different things, and as they age, or their experiences change, those things change. The horse you thought was perfect may change, and then they may no longer be your perfect horse.
And Natural Horsemanship does not make 'pets' out of horses. It is teaching the horse to respect your space and you as their leader. Do it right and your horse won't just 'work' for all, they'll give their all for you.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

Horse Poor said:


> Look, horses bite and kick each other because they are HORSES! THAT is the way they relate to each other. That is what THEY understand. They also have to learn what is and is not a REAL threat and will treat everything unfamiliar to them as a POTENTIAL threat until they determine one way or the other. Horses who are unfamiliar with sheep will treat this fellow "prey animal" as if it were a predator because they don't know that it isn't. Once a horse becomes familiar with sheep, it will not view it as a potential predator, but it won't view it as a fellow prey animal either - it will view it as a sheep! A sheep will behave like a sheep and all other sheep the horse encounters that smell and behave like a sheep will be identified as a sheep. He won't take each and every sheep thereafter as a potential threat each and every time he encounters one. And as for smelling like meat, I've seen horses eat hot dogs, lunch meat, even a hamburger. What makes you think they know what meat smells like or even what meat is? Let's not make things any more complicated than they have to be - horses are horses. They act like horses. They behave like horses. And if you understand HORSES, then it doesn't matter what YOU are. They will NEVER treat you like a predator unless YOU BEHAVE LIKE ONE! I seriously doubt that horses stand around worrying whether or not the next human they meet is the one that is going to eat them! They have never seen a human leap on a fellow herd mate and rip him to shreds. I think horses view us the way the view us and no one really knows what that is. I don't think they see us as predators...I think they see us as something they have to deal with, because in that regard, they don't have a choice and that's about it.


I generally agree with what you are saying,but feel that I must expand on it a bit.
Horses and survivors and adapt and react to the environment that they are in to a large degree.

If I place a young filly into a field that is too small, with three half wild geldings,then I will have a different horse from the filly that I put in with three mellow,older mares that are in a much larger field.

If I place a herd of geldings in a small pasture that is over crowded and under feed the group,then I am placing stress on the group and the herd reacts to the environment that they are in.

If I place a really bad herd boss in with a group and the boss is nervous and a bully,then that effects the whole group.

If I take a horse that has been housed in a 12x12 stall their whole life and throw them out into a herd,then the disorientation of the horse can make all the other horses nervous and change the overall environment.

There are herds that kick and bite and use force all the time.
There are herds that are managed a little better and are VERY peaceful.
Force is not necessary because they have what they need.
The animals need for force can be environmental.

Just like human society.


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## Shalani (Jul 16, 2009)

Misfit said:


> The way I see it, in order to train, we need to relate to horses in a manner they understand.
> 
> Watch a herd of horses. Horse gets too close, first they get a warning. Second they get nailed with a hoof.
> 
> ...



Just to add why uneducated people will hold onto a horse and belt it its in our nature. 

Think of 2 little boys playing wrestling one boy holds the other down and makes him say uncle . Like an alpha male wolf will pin his rival to the ground until he lays belly up in a submissive stance, humans define who is boss by holding the other still and making them submit.

Where as horses move each other forward eg the alpha horse will move the other horses out of their way.
Which is where so many people go wrong to be the boss aka alpha horse you need to move them forward not hold them still.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

darkwillow said:


> . Using hobbles is not part of natural horsemanship. I don't agree with it, and I don't believe it is necessary.


Why can't NH use hobbles?? I don't cross tie, I just slip a pair of hobbles on leaving the head free for grooming and no cross ties to deal with. My horse is comfortable wearing front hobbles, back hobbles or both as well as wearing a single cuff on one hind leg.
Teaching hobbling takes about 10 minutes a day for 3 days and then there is no fight whatever.
If you teach your horse to tie and I sure hope you do then hobbling is no worse.
If you have never taught hobbling then maybe you should try it before condemning it.
In my saddle bag is always a pair of hobbles and if I pick a place to take a rest my guy can be hobbled, the bridle slipped and he can graze.
He certainly isn't bothered by having a pair of hobbles put on and turned out to graze.:lol::lol:


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## Shalani (Jul 16, 2009)

1dog3cats17rodents said:


> Ever heard of domestication? Horses natural born fear of humans has almost entirely been bred out. Wolves are naturally scared of humans, but dogs aren't. Wild horses/prey animal are scared of humans, domestic horses aren't.


I agree with you some what . I just dont think your looking at all the facts..
however a difference between domestication & trust

Horses are a prey species and as such it is their nature to run first and ask questions later.

Like most species, horses aren't born with fear. It is possible to introduce and assimilate a great many stimuli at birth so the foal won't react with fear when he gets older. This is the basis of much of Dr. Robert Miller's technique of imprinting.

It only takes 1 person to imprint fear of humans into a horse and that horse will then fear and not trust humans. . Even if you are still able to ride they will not trust your judgment and will be very jumpy .

Thats where natural horsemanship comes in to earn the horses trust by speaking to them in a language they will understand .


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

darkwillow said:


> 99% of the time, horses will fight. .


 
Whenever I pick a new horse and I hope it is not often right off the bat I ask the person if I may fabricate a quick set of hobbles and put them on the prospect. I have a safe way of doing this and can quickly let go if the horse explodes freeing him. From this I can tell how he reacts to being restraint. I shake of the leg is fine, a sudden blow up is not. I would walk away from any horse that brew up but not one that just shakes the trapped leg. 
I will not take a family pet, one that has been over handled young. I prefer half wild 3 or 4 year olds with almost no handling, certainly no attempt at breaking. A half wild animal will break faster and more thorough then the spoiled family pet.
I had one that was almost a wild mustang and he broke so thorough in 30 days you could ride him without a bride and he followed you around like a dog. A gorgous animal that died prematurely

This guy never felt a brush , didn't know what an apple was, any treat whatever. totally wild and unspoiled. Ready to mold into anything I wanted.


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

RiosDad:

I think that hobble-breaking a horse is an invaluable step in making a really good all around horse. Even if I never use hobbles, the scenario that springs immediately to mind is: what if the horse gets tangled in a fence? A hobble broke horse is a lot more likely to stand quietly and wait for someone to free him, a non-hobble trained horse is a lot more likely to explode and potentially injure himself.

I don't use hobbles myself, I just don't have the experience with them to feel comfortable running out and buying a set and slapping them on Scout, but I would certainly not be opposed to hobbling him with help.

I totally get where you're coming from on the differences between a spoiled horse and a wild horse. I've seen absolute clean slates (never a truly wild horse, so...) progress fantastically, and spoiled animals require months of "fixing," the whole while the owner cringing if "baby" needs a comparatively gentle smack to discourage blatant biting or kicking. It takes a whole lot less time to paint a picture than it does to scrape old paint off a canvas first, and you end up with a clearer, nicer picture in the end on a clean canvas.

I've seen both sides of the spectrum, from the hard-core horse spoilers to the bash-him-with-that-2x4,-he-hasn't-been-whacked-yet-today "trainers." I've seen good trainers using solid, non-abusive techniques and establishing their position as the leader be berated by owners who think that if you touch a horse and you can hear it, you've just emotionally destroyed the horse.

The error comes when anyone tries to punch a horse into a training mold. When a horse that needs a firmer leader isn't given it, you get a spoiled brat who can't be trusted. When a meek, nervous horse is beaten for no reason and not given a leader he can trust, you get a basket case that you still can't trust. All training, all "force," needs to be flexible and applied in accordance with what the horse requires. It takes a true horseman to judiciously apply the right pressure in the right way.

Your horse is gorgeous, BTW


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Scoutrider said:


> RiosDad:
> 
> I don't use hobbles myself, I just don't have the experience with them to feel comfortable running out and buying a set and slapping them on Scout, but I would certainly not be opposed to hobbling him with help.
> 
> Your horse is gorgeous, BTW


Run a post asking HOW TO BREAK A HORSE TO WEAR HOBBLES and I will gladly go through the simple process. It is really easy and 2 novices can teach it. It just takes know how which I am more then willing to share.

As for the gorgous horse. He is dead. He reacted to his needles for the herd plan and died.

for those that have never caught a wire you are very lucky if the horse made it ok. I have seen total wrecks with the skin peeled off like taking off a long sock.. All ALL my guys learn to stand right off the bat.


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

So sorry about your horse, RiosDad. What a loss. 

Yes, I'll definitely start a thread on hobble-training. 

OK, I'll let the posts get back to topic now...


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

darkwillow said:


> 99% of the time, horses will fight. It's in their nature. When they are trapped, they recognise that they become more vulnerable to predators, so they fight to escape. Using hobbles is not part of natural horsemanship. I don't agree with it, and I don't believe it is necessary.
> As for perfect, no horse is perfect. They're all different. They're good at different things, and as they age, or their experiences change, those things change. The horse you thought was perfect may change, and then they may no longer be your perfect horse.
> And Natural Horsemanship does not make 'pets' out of horses. It is teaching the horse to respect your space and you as their leader. Do it right and your horse won't just 'work' for all, they'll give their all for you.


Darkwillow,
I very much respect what you have written here,But hobble training is VERY MUCH a part of "Natural Horsemanship" in the opinion of several clinicians.

There are three basic categories of all training

Restraint
pressure
Low or zero pressure.

Much training starts out as restraint like tying as an example.
As the horse learns to stand tied they,from time to time might test the lead rope with a pull.
The restraint training transitions into pressure training as the horse stands tied.
After a time the horse understands that they are required to stay where you put them and there are no longer tries at the lead rope.
The horse can be taught to ground tie and will stay with just the rope on the ground.
Later the horse is asked to stand in the round pen and be saddled with on halter as they have learned to stand with not restraint at all.

To me the word "Natural" means that I am working with the basic nature of the horse and considering their perspective.
I look at the environmental conditions that the horse is in and has been in.
I use herd dynamics and psychology to out think the horse and desensitizing to condition the horse to new things.
I never hit or smack under any condition,but pressure and restraint are wonderful tools if not abused.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Just because a horse is domesticated does NOT mean he has no fear of the human. A horse is a horse, a prey animal, first and foremost. To think otherwise is setting yourself up for failure and danger, IMO. A domesticated horse might not have as much fear response to the human as a mustang would, but it's still there. In some horses it's burried deep, while with others it's right on the surface. ALL horses have a fear of humans when they are born...it might be a mild fear, but it's there. If we show them, especially from an early age, that humans are not bad, then you might not see the fear response. 

I like the saying "Inside every wild horse is a tame horse, and inside every tame or domesticated horse there is a wild horse. We must never, ever forget that." To think that a domesticated horse has zero fear of the human is ridiculous.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

Spirithorse said:


> Just because a horse is domesticated does NOT mean he has no fear of the human. A horse is a horse, a prey animal, first and foremost. To think otherwise is setting yourself up for failure and danger, IMO. A domesticated horse might not have as much fear response to the human as a mustang would, but it's still there. In some horses it's burried deep, while with others it's right on the surface. ALL horses have a fear of humans when they are born...it might be a mild fear, but it's there. If we show them, especially from an early age, that humans are not bad, then you might not see the fear response.
> 
> I like the saying "Inside every wild horse is a tame horse, and inside every tame or domesticated horse there is a wild horse. We must never, ever forget that." To think that a domesticated horse has zero fear of the human is ridiculous.


 Very well put!


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

Spirithorse said:


> Just because a horse is domesticated does NOT mean he has no fear of the human. A horse is a horse, a prey animal, first and foremost. To think otherwise is setting yourself up for failure and danger, IMO. A domesticated horse might not have as much fear response to the human as a mustang would, but it's still there. In some horses it's burried deep, while with others it's right on the surface. ALL horses have a fear of humans when they are born...it might be a mild fear, but it's there. If we show them, especially from an early age, that humans are not bad, then you might not see the fear response.
> 
> I like the saying "Inside every wild horse is a tame horse, and inside every tame or domesticated horse there is a wild horse. We must never, ever forget that." To think that a domesticated horse has zero fear of the human is ridiculous.


Absolutely, and very well said. And it is the job of the handler to never give the horse a reason to fear him/her, or any human. My point is that, in the situation of a truly wild horse, there are basically 3 categories into which the horse can sort another species: Predator, nonthreatening other animal, or fellow herd member. Examples of the first 2 would be cougar and buffalo, respectively. "It" either needs to be run from or ignored. There isn't a fourth category called "2 legged thing that doesn't try to eat me but wants my attention and respect." So, what other option does the wild horse have? Throw us into the category of "Fellow herd member" and treat us as such. Think about it, other horses fulfill everything except being bipedal about the missing fourth category. Please, tell me what about being bipedal makes me that much like a predator? There hasn't been an upright walking predator, excepting early man, in the last 65 million years (T-Rex, Velociraptor, Allosaurus, etc). Yes, bears stand, but they don't walk upright. 

Domestic horses almost undoubtedly see their humans as members of their herd system. They generally don't fear us in the "OMG IT'S GONNA EAT ME!" sense (or so I hope... hmmm), they _can_ fear us in the "Oh, crud, it's coming back, I'd better skedaddle if I don't want slammed" sense. As trainers and handlers, we (or I, anyway. I'll speak for myself) want to be seen by the horse as "It's my boss, he/she's nice, but I'd better be nice back." Yes, there _can_ be fear of a human in a horse. No contest. It's just a different kind of fear than that of a cougar. More akin to fear of the herd bully. The partnership needs to be 51% Me /49% Him, not 99% Me / 1% Him.

Also, there can be fear driven conflict within the herd system of horses alone. One horse can bully another and cause fear, every bit as much as a human can. 

Anyway, I think we're leaving the topic of "Why Force." I'm not sure where we're going, but we're definitely leaving the force issue behind. Maybe I'll start a debate thread about how horses view their humans?


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

Scoutrider, I feel that you are VERY on topic as "Force and Fear" can go hand in hand. I think that you bring up an area that is NOT semantics at all and does show that there are differences between the "Natural Horsemanship" trainers. This does not bother me at all as I feel that the core ideas are valid and can decide what part of the system I what to use. I have considered the predator/prey approach when working with a wild Mustang off the BLM,but I feel it starts to loose appeal with a young horse that has been hand raised. I also like your 51% me 49% him description. That is very nicely said.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Well, think about it. All prey animals that I can think of (horse, zebra, wild pigs, giraffe, gazelle, antelope, etc) walk on 4 legs. Humans walk on 2. Horses, being prey animals, are skeptical to places, changes, things, especially things that look suspicious....and horses being born prey animals, who have a natural fear of people (to some degree) see this strange animal that walks on 2 legs, smells like meat, and does not resemble an animal whom he would consider a herd mate, it makes sense that he would put us into the predator category. A prey animal is concerned about survival first and foremost and you really see this with wild mustangs. With domesticated horses you see it too, but sometimes not to the degree the mustang has. Some forms of fear from the horse to the human include standing frozen (with tension), going catatonic, going introverted, having some form of tension when the human is around like when the human goes to put the saddle on for example, biting and kicking can be from fear in some cases.....the list goes on and on. I'm looking at the subtle signs of fear that can lead into full blown fear if we are not careful. Hesitation from a horse is the first sign of fear. If there was no fear, there would be no hesitation.



Scoutrider said:


> Absolutely, and very well said. And it is the job of the handler to never give the horse a reason to fear him/her, or any human. My point is that, in the situation of a truly wild horse, there are basically 3 categories into which the horse can sort another species: Predator, nonthreatening other animal, or fellow herd member. Examples of the first 2 would be cougar and buffalo, respectively. "It" either needs to be run from or ignored. There isn't a fourth category called "2 legged thing that doesn't try to eat me but wants my attention and respect." So, what other option does the wild horse have? Throw us into the category of "Fellow herd member" and treat us as such. Think about it, other horses fulfill everything except being bipedal about the missing fourth category. Please, tell me what about being bipedal makes me that much like a predator? There hasn't been an upright walking predator, excepting early man, in the last 65 million years (T-Rex, Velociraptor, Allosaurus, etc). Yes, bears stand, but they don't walk upright.
> 
> Domestic horses almost undoubtedly see their humans as members of their herd system. They generally don't fear us in the "OMG IT'S GONNA EAT ME!" sense (or so I hope... hmmm), they _can_ fear us in the "Oh, crud, it's coming back, I'd better skedaddle if I don't want slammed" sense. As trainers and handlers, we (or I, anyway. I'll speak for myself) want to be seen by the horse as "It's my boss, he/she's nice, but I'd better be nice back." Yes, there _can_ be fear of a human in a horse. No contest. It's just a different kind of fear than that of a cougar. More akin to fear of the herd bully. The partnership needs to be 51% Me /49% Him, not 99% Me / 1% Him.
> 
> ...


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

Spirithorse said:


> Well, think about it. All prey animals that I can think of (horse, zebra, wild pigs, giraffe, gazelle, antelope, etc) walk on 4 legs. Humans walk on 2.
> 
> *And, as far as I can see, humans are the definite exeption. Every other post Cretaceous Era predator that I can think of walks on 4. Lions, tigers, bears, cougars, wolves, coyotes, bobcats, hyenas, jackals...*
> 
> ...


Just what I have personally observed and encountered, and my own extensive reading and research backs up.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Kudos to scoutrider, definately agree.

Spirit, I don't understand the 'smelling like meat' thing. Of course, we smell like meat; We are meat! As are horses. If it has to do with the fact we eat meat, then would a horse react differently to a vegetarian?


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

^^ Yeah, I don't get the whole 'smelling like meat' thing.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

There have actually been studies done to see if horses behave differently around vegetarians......I'd like to know the outcome of those studies. But what I mean is that horses can smell that we eat meat, and predators eat meat. Which only backs up why they can see us as predators.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

I would also love to see the results of those studies. If you find them I would love for you to share them.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

*And, as far as I can see, humans are the definite exeption. Every other post Cretaceous Era predator that I can think of walks on 4. Lions, tigers, bears, cougars, wolves, coyotes, bobcats, hyenas, jackals...*

We might be the exception, but would you disagree that humans are, as of this day and age, the ultimate predator? We can kill anything we want to given the right tools. Horses know we could kill them. That's in their DNA. One reason why I refuse to swin in the ocean is because when I enter the water I am no longer top of the food chain.....sharks are now top predator, and I don't like that! lol.

*Yes, biologically humans are predators. But, have you ever seen one truly act in a predatory fashion around a horse (or at any time?)?

*Yes I have. Your definition of 'predatory fashion' might be different than mine, but I have seen people yell at their horse then haul out and smack him for pawing in the cross ties. That is predatory. No doubt about it.

*Modern humans are so far removed from the predator of thousands of years ago that, excepting extraordinary circumstances or grave danger/fear, most humans do not behave in a physical way analogus to the predators a domesticated horse is hard wired to instinctively fear.

*It doesn't matter, IMO, how our ancestors acted.....that's how they had to act at the time. You are looking at the extreme. I'm looking at what is seen to be normal in the horse world today.

*When you want a burger, does your predator mode kick in and you grab your spear?

*No, but that is a really funny visual! lol!

*Or do you hop in the car and take a trip to Burger King? I have seen horses react in identical fashion to a strange horse as to a strange human (with tension, hesitation, etc), but I totally agree with the sensitivity/skepticism to changes.

*Even though we do not act like "cavemen" these days, the instinct to dominate, hunt, get what we want when we want it, and to do whatever it takes to get it is still in our DNA. I wonder if I could say that modern day humans are "domesticated?" lol. If one tool doesn't work for a job, you get a bigger tool. We will use force whenever is needed to get the job done. You see this same predatory instinct in the horse world (at least IMO). If a horse chomps on the bit, some people tie his mouth shut. If the horse carries his head high, some people tie it down. If the horse pulls while leading, some people put a chain over their nose in in their mouth. If a horse doesn't carry himself well, some people will strap his head down and MAKE him carry himself "correctly." Can you tell me these few examples are not predatory inclinations of the human? Humans are mechanically inclined, and unfortunately this instinct carries over to dealing with horses. 

*Yes, absolutely a domestic horse can have fear and is above all concerned about his survival, and it is the task of the handler to diffuse that fear when it rises.*
* 
*Absolutely. I agree completely. The responsibility lies completely on the handler.

*On the topic of disciplining a belligerent horse, who has NO physical pain issues, who is not afraid of what we are doing to or with him, have you ever seen such a horse exhibiting the tension or postures that you have described? I have not. 

*These horses, I agree, are not afraid of people. They have over-ridden that fear instinct, and this can be for multiple reasons. Once a horse feels safe around a human, he will try to dominate the human. That's the way of the herd. Some horses are very subtle about it, while others are very clear about their intentions! lol. However, this does not give the human an excuse to act forceful, aggressive and predatory.

*Example: I turn my horse out in his paddock and return to the barn to get a bucket with his breakfast for him to eat outside. This is a daily routine, and he understands that he needs to stay out of my space and not crowd for the bucket. He is normally polite and gentle, but today decides to crowd me at the gate and grab for food. I look him in the eye and say "Scout, back," with no response. I give him a slap on the neck and firmly say "AHHCT." He steps away and permits me to cross the paddock to the feeder, calmly following about ten feet behind. He is not afraid, not tense. His normal behavior is calm acceptance of the routine, so he is not confused. And he comes right to me when I want to catch him again, no food, no bribes, rarely even a vocal call.*
* 
**sigh* Okay, this might not sound right, but it's the only way I can get across what I'm saying. Please know I am in no way criticizing you. Okay, in this situation, I agree the horse has no fear. So now we are looking at a dominance issue. IMO that does not warrent a smack. My question would be, WHY is the horse doing this in the first place? WHY, if the horse is TRULY respectful of the human, is he showing this negative behavior? A horse will not bite, kick or crowd the alpha horse. So if the horse does not see you as the leader, he might try the above things and more. If the horse does see you as a worthy leader, he will not try these things. If the horse tries this behavior every so often, the horse truly does not see the human as someone worth respecting. Further, if each time the horse crowds, he gets a smack for not getting out of the way, it's really not fixing the problem.....because the behavior keeps coming back and it's never resolved.

*As a true horseperson should. If a horse hesitates, that is the time to better acquaint it with whatever made it hesitate, in a way that does not push him further into a fear reaction. When the horse is frightened is not the time to smack him. A frightened horse cannot learn, hs isn't using the "thinking side of his brain." 
* 
Absolutely! I wish more people knew and understood this.....but this understanding comes with knowing how to correctly and accurately read the horse.
* 
When he knows the drill, understands what you want, and is not in physical pain, yet behaves in a belligerent manner, "force" is in order, whether a verbal repremand (a mare's squeal), or a more physical pinch or smack (a higher-rung horse's nip or kick
* 
I wil disagree with this. Just because the horse says "No" doesn't give us the right to smack him. A brace in the body started as a brace in the mind. So my question would be, WHY is that mental brace there to begin with? It can be narrowed down to several things: the horse is not motivated, he's bored, he's sour to whatever the rider is asking him to do, the rider has been forceful which makes this horse fight back.....in each case it is the rider's fault, not the horse's, so he should not be punished for the rider's lack of understanding, attention, patience or knowledge.


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## Misfit (Jun 29, 2009)

NM computer problem.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

One of the things that I like about what Spirithorse is saying is that she starts with the question "WHY". I feel that this is very in line with the "Natural Horsemanship". To work with a horse and approach any problem with the idea that you will "Command" a response is really a very different way and not one that I am interested in at all. Now I can accept that in certain situations a person feels trapped and out of ideas so they grab a bigger tool,But after it keeps happening,then a quality handler asks "Why".


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Thank you MareCare  

Not all, of course, but a lot of people rarely ask the question WHY......WHY is my horse biting me? WHY is he strong when I'm riding? WHY is he lazy? WHY are his ears back? WHY is he chomping on the bit? Why why why?! lol!

Just to comment further on something MareCare said, if I do so happen to be caught in a situation where it is dangerous and I HAVE to do something in order to save my own life, I WILL do whatever it takes to keep my body intact lol. I do think that with the proper knowledge and being able to read a horse correctly, you can avoid situations like that.


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

Spirithorse said:


> There have actually been studies done to see if horses behave differently around vegetarians......I'd like to know the outcome of those studies. But what I mean is that horses can smell that we eat meat, and predators eat meat. Which only backs up why they can see us as predators.


I would also love to see the results. Not just that, but also how the study was conducted. I have a research background and find way too many studies lately being scientifically unsound.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

I'll see if I can find the results. I believe I read about it in a magazine.....Equus maybe? It was awhile ago, but I'll see what I can find out.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

I disagree with the notion that asling why is mainly a NH approach... I do agree that it is essential.


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

Spirithorse:

I do believe I mentioned something in an earlier post about how the horse does not want to be the leader (too stressful), but even more than that, he does want the greatest safety possible, even if it means being the leader. THAT is the why. That is why an otherwise quiet horse who knows and understands what is being asked of him will be pushy, or nip, etc. (as long as he is not in pain) He is, in effect, asking me, "Are you strong enough to keep me safe? If you can't be my leader, and control my feet, my actions, then I have to be the leader." Horses in a leadership role are not relaxed, not happy. It sets up a vicious cycle for the horse and the human. Even horses with wonderful relationships with their humans, whose humans do provide excellent leadership, will occasionally "check in" and test to see if you, as a leader, are still up to the challenge. A horse who frequently tests is simply a more self-preservation oriented animal, within the herd dynamic setting.

Yes, a human can kill anything it wants to with technology. But, does the horse understand nuclear weapons, even guns? The sound frightens them, but they do not understand that a bit of lead flies out of the end and has the potential to kill. It is just a sound to them. As far as the horse knowing I could kill him, I know that he could kill me just as easily. It's a matter of healthy, mutual respect and trust.

Yes, there are some nutjobs out there who will smack for no reason. Trust me, I've seen about the worst horse handling that there can be. My impression was that we were discussing not the problems with poor horsemanship, but the place of force within the realm of natural, common sense, sound horsemanship.

Moving to a bigger tool is not neccesarily predatory. Now, please understand that I am not at all condoning the practices that you outlined, but if a horse doesn't get the reaction he wants, doesn't he go for a bigger tool? If a squeal doesn't get another horse out of his space, doesn't he kick out? As far as the mechanical inclination of humans in horse training, it is unfortunate that some people use gimmicks and gadgets instead of finding the real problem, but, again, I thought we were discussing the place of force within a more natural horsemanship setting.

Again, I think the ever changing definition of force is causing us to misunderstand each other. There is a MAJOR difference between force as an escalation of aid (ask, suggest, judiciously and appropriately encourage), and force as a discipline tool. 2 totally different applications, to be used with different "intentions," if that makes sense. A horse who says no needs to be asked again, a horse who behaves as though he is the leader and you are not needs to be disciplined. A horse in the leadership chair is not healthy for him, or safe for the handler.

Interesting thought about people being domesticated, love it!


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

wild_spot said:


> I disagree with the notion that asling why is mainly a NH approach... I do agree that it is essential.


 The statement was "Very in line with"!


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

lol, I think it is rediculous to think that horses respond differently to vegetarians as opposed to meat eaters.


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## Joshie (Aug 26, 2008)

This explains a lot. I understand now why Spyder eats a hamburger before going out to see the horses.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

I thought it was hotdog weiners?


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Joshie said:


> This explains a lot. I understand now why Spyder eats a hamburger before going out to see the horses.


I do not...I eat Kermit's froggie legs!!!


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Are you sure you aren't sucking on a corn dog?


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

MIEventer said:


> I thought it was hotdog weiners?


I pinched them off...:shock:


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## Joshie (Aug 26, 2008)

Here you go, Spyder!


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Joshie said:


> Here you go, Spyder!


 
Good start but beans...ugggggg

Too much released wind involved in eating those things!


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

Mmm...frog legs look tasty. *licks whiskers*


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Cat said:


> Mmm...frog legs look tasty. *licks whiskers*


I thought Joshie cut off your wiskers for her salad???????????


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

She tried but did not succeed. I think she might have gotten the kitten's before she changed species.


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## Joshie (Aug 26, 2008)

Toot toot is the sound a Spyder makes.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Tisk Tisk Spyder


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Joshie said:


> Trout trout is the smell Joshie makes.


I know, I know Joshie but we did tell you *NOT* to stuff those trout down your bra. It really does nothing for your figure.:shock:


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Scoutrider said:


> Spirithorse:
> 
> I do believe I mentioned something in an earlier post about how the horse does not want to be the leader (too stressful), but even more than that, he does want the greatest safety possible, even if it means being the leader. THAT is the why. That is why an otherwise quiet horse who knows and understands what is being asked of him will be pushy, or nip, etc. (as long as he is not in pain) He is, in effect, asking me, "Are you strong enough to keep me safe? If you can't be my leader, and control my feet, my actions, then I have to be the leader."
> 
> ...


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

"The rider with high ambitions and little knowledge will be more inclined to revert to punishment than will the more experienced rider. He will try to obtain by force what he can not achieve by the correct use of the aids as taught by the classical school." 
Alois Podhajsky

I wonder who Alois Podhajsky is?


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

MIEventer said:


> Tisk Tisk Spyder


Spyder take a bath!!!! And not in the toilet this time....


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Cat said:


> Spyder take a bath!!!! And not in the toilet this time....


 
Look at that outline, at least I got Joshie !!!!!!!!!!:shock:


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Mustard Spreads - BWWAA H HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

I will never be able to look at mustard the same again. :shock:


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Cat said:


> I will never be able to look at mustard the same again. :shock:


 
Which color...brown or yellow ??????????


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## Joshie (Aug 26, 2008)

Spirithorse said:


> *I will disagree slightly. Some horses do in fact want to be the leader over the human (also in terms of being dominant).
> 
> *
> 
> ...





Marecare said:


> I wonder who Alois Podhajsky is?


Of course horses want to be dominant. That's not the issues. There's only one place to go when you're top dog and that's _down!_ It's not a secure position. If your horse is alpha over you then you're not the trainer. The horse is. 

Our trainer said something to us recently. He said that a 1100 lb horse cannot be controlled with a lead rope. He can only be controlled in his head. 

Marecare, could you be speaking about this guy?

Amazon.com: Complete Training of Horse and Rider: Alois Podhajsky: Books

I wanna know WHY nobody cleaned up Spyder's mess???


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

"Remove the cause and you have effected the cure".

"Love of the horse must come first".

"Use diplomacy rather than struggle".

"Never betray your friendship with your horse".

"The greatest asset you have is the power of observation".

"Force is the horses enemy".


Jack Brainard


I wonder who Jack Brainard is?


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## horseloverd2 (Jan 23, 2009)

Ok... it depends on the horse. I have a horse that if you hit it, it will have a terrible effect on its brain. He doesn't see it as a punishment, and he doesn't get better.... he gets worse! Then he wants to be as far away from me as possible!

Another horse I know, you whip it or whatever and it straightens up right away. You can't just go AHHHH! you have to use force with this horse.

It depends on the wiring on a different horse's brain.


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## Joshie (Aug 26, 2008)

Please just let this tread die.


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

^^ Was thinking the same thing. This is a dumb thing to go getting all worked up over.


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## goldilockz (Aug 1, 2008)

Joshie said:


> Please just let this tread die.


Seriously. I need to find the ignore feature already, as I'm really tired of reading the snark and sarcasm from a couple of people.


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## goldilockz (Aug 1, 2008)

Marecare said:


> I wonder who Jack Brainard is?


Why don't you just *tell us* instead of using passive aggression to get your point across?


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

It is only for those to employ force who possess strength without judgment; but the well advised will have recourse to other means. Besides, he who pretends to carry his point by force hath need of many associates; but the man who can persuade knows that he is himself sufficient for the purpose; neither can such a one be supposed forward to shed blood; for, who is there would choose to destroy a fellow citizen rather than make a friend of him by mildness and persuasion?

Xenophon


I wonder who Xenophon was?


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

Force is all-conquering, but its victories are short-lived. 
Author: Abraham Lincoln

The power that is supported by force alone will have cause often to tremble. 
Author: Lajos Kossuth


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

goldilockz said:


> Why don't you just *tell us* instead of using passive aggression to get your point across?



Jack Brainard

Horse Trainer,Breeder,Judge,Writer,Rodeo Organizer,Organizer of the National Reining Horse Association,Clinician.
87 years young.

JACK BRAINARD ADVANCED HORSEMANSHIP


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

^^ Took you long enough.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

sunny06 said:


> ^^ Took you long enough.



I think you need to catch up on your reading.


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

I never really cared, actually. I don't need a trainer.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

The man who strikes first admits that his ideas have given out. ~Chinese Proverb

And from one of my favorite books.

Who overcomes by force hath overcome but half his foe. ~John Milton, _Paradise Lost_, 1667


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## goldilockz (Aug 1, 2008)

Marecare said:


> I think you need to catch up on your reading.


Go ahead and tell everyone else what they *should* be reading, since you have so obviously read every book that was ever written on horsemanship. 

I would like to suggest a bit of reading to you: Humble. Humility.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

goldilockz said:


> Go ahead and tell everyone else what they *should* be reading, since you have so obviously read every book that was ever written on horsemanship.
> 
> I would like to suggest a bit of reading to you: Humble. Humility.




I think this applies perfectly.
Another one of my favorites.


The pleasures of ignorance are as great, in their way, as the pleasures of knowledge. ~Aldous Huxley


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## goldilockz (Aug 1, 2008)

I can play the quote game too, you know. Your passive aggression knows no bounds. 

As we acquire more knowledge, things do not become more comprehensible, but more mysterious. _Albert Schweitzer_


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## free_sprtd (Oct 18, 2007)

ALRIGHT folks, lets remember the Horse Forum Etiquette rule. Opinions only please about the related topic, let's not rant on eachother about their own ideas.


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## goldilockz (Aug 1, 2008)

free_sprtd said:


> ALRIGHT folks, lets remember the Horse Forum Etiquette rule. Opinions only please about the related topic, let's not rant on eachother about their own ideas.


You're right. I'm going to employ the ignore feature now. I'm tired of him throwing quotes out at people implying they are stupid and ignorant. It's rude.


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## free_sprtd (Oct 18, 2007)

It's good that everyone has an opinion and to each their own. this forum is about receiving and giving information  Thanks!


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

You know the old kids tune called "the song that never ends" - well this thread is really making me think of it.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

Well,
I think we have just scratched the surface talking about the use of force and training.
Humans love to solve problems with force and we have done it for thousands of years,We are good at it.
I am not afraid of the topic and feel that it is good to discuss it.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Wow, all I see in these pages is a bunch of name dropping.

I am with joshie, sunny, and all the others. It is time for this thread to just shrivel up and die.


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## TroubledTB (Jun 26, 2009)

I had to force myself not to read this article, was I being to cruel? I wonder if that's a good reason to force? Ohh I won't let my horse read it either, she just might get ideas in her head.


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

Yeah, I dropped out of the conversation all together. Didn't feel like fighting--gets you nowhere. Just decided to turn the other cheek. Anyone for calling the mods?


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

TroubledTB said:


> I had to force myself not to read this article, was I being to cruel? I wonder if that's a good reason to force? Ohh I won't let my horse read it either, she just might get ideas in her head.


See, this is what just antagonizes things like this. People are trying to make this thread die, and you write something that could have been left out. 

Anyway, I'm in agreement that this should just die.....I think it's past it's expiration date. However, I was enjoying the civil conversation that ScoutRider and I were having. A lot of interesting points and perspectives were being brought up.


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

^^ Well, I feel if it IS educational, why not just keep it?

Just no posting rude comments.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

I agree sunny. The only reason I said it should die is because things got way off track and it didn't look like it would get back *on* track. However, if people (on both sides of the conversation) will stop with the unnecessary comments, then maybe, just maybe, we can salvage this thread after all! lol.


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

Maybe, but I doubt it. People will see this and not even touch it, now.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

darkwillow said:


> I think hitting a horse is wrong. I've never had to hit a horse, and when I did hit a horse because others told me to, it ruined the horse. Is it just me who thinks this?? People use natural horsemanship and force in the same sentence, but natural horsemanship is about NOT using force to train a horse.
> 
> Is it just me, or does anyone else think this is weird??:?



It's really very easy.

Just start over!


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

^^ Oh, like retraining?

Yeah, people do it all the time. Like with rescues! If your horse hates being smacked than don't smack him.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

See, the thread is coming back.....slightly. It's a start!


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

Say something! Quick!


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)




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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

MIEventer said:


>


 
OMG you didn't FORCE that horse down there did you or was it some sort of Parelli training ?


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

DUH!


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

MIEventer said:


> DUH!


 
You are going to FORCE me to pay THAT much !!!!!!!!!!!!!!:shock:


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

I forced Spyder! I FORCED!

Now look what happened - 

I forced so much, I made Nelson turn to the Spirits!


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

^ You guys crack me up.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Hey you know what though! Through all this whispering in Nelson's ear, we've grown quite closer!


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

MIEventer said:


> I forced Spyder! I FORCED!
> 
> Now look what happened -
> 
> I forced so much, I made Nelson turn to the Spirits!


 
I am going to have to send one of my cousins to your place....


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## Joshie (Aug 26, 2008)

You guys have way too much time on your hands! :shock:


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

LOL wait, wait, wait! I think I got this forcing NH stuff down pat!


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

^^ Love that.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

MIEventer said:


> LOL wait, wait, wait! I think I got this forcing NH stuff down pat!


 
Ummm what is that hanging between that ninja's legs ???????


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)




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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)




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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

^^ROFLMFAO!!! Those are just too funny!!


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

It's lost. Time to hit the off switch on this thread.


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## goldilockz (Aug 1, 2008)

I can't get past Sewer Horse :lol:

Where did you find the horse pics with the little models? Those are hilarious!!


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

LOL SPYDER! Only you would look there eh?!?! 










If you look closer, you will see it is his Ninja Black Belt that is decieving you into believing it is something else.

Get some glasses eh!


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

Spirithorse said:


> It's lost. Time to hit the off switch on this thread.



Spirithorse,
This is a technique that is used on many forums to shut down a thread that a group does not agree with.
They don't have any argument or discussion left so they just picture you to death in hopes of you quiting the topic.

I feel that it being done on the Natural Horsemanship thread is against the spirit of discussion and is an attempt to ridicule.

But then again ,they have no discussion,just FORCE!


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Wow, your words are deep. I think I will have to ponder on that at work today.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

MIEventer said:


> LOL SPYDER! Only you would look there eh?!?!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Well even the mare is saying what the........because it is so strange looking.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

The young always have the same problem - how to rebel and conform at the same time. They have now solved this by defying their parents and copying one another. ~Quentin Crisp

Don't laugh at a youth for his affectations; he is only trying on one face after another to find a face of his own. ~Logan Pearsall Smith, "Age and Death," _Afterthoughts_, 1931

Adolescence is perhaps nature's way of preparing parents to welcome the empty nest. ~Karen Savage and Patricia Adams, _The Good Stepmother

_Few things are more satisfying than seeing your children have teenagers of their own. ~Doug Larson

Mother Nature is providential. She gives us twelve years to develop a love for our children before turning them into teenagers. ~William Galvin


The best substitute for experience is being sixteen. ~Raymond Duncan

There is nothing wrong with today's teenager that twenty years won't cure. ~Author Unknown


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

I can google quotes too marecare. *rolls eyes*


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

MIEventer said:


> I can google quotes too marecare. *rolls eyes*


 
*“Color possesses me. I don't have to pursue it. It will possess me always, I know it. That is the meaning of this happy hour: Color and I are one. I am a painter.”*








Paul Klee



Bring back the blue version.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

Yes,but I can read them and know what they mean!


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Marecare said:


> Yes,but I can read them and know what they mean!


 
MI I do get the impression from the above that you not only can't ride out of a wet paper bag you can't read out of one either.


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## goldilockz (Aug 1, 2008)

Oh fun. We're back to quotes to passive aggressively call everyone stupid. 

Can we get back to hilarious comic strips about horse humor now?


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

I really hate when people do this to a thread I happened to be enjoying. 

Is it so hard to start a thread somewhere seperate for your off topic chat and comic posting?


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

^^ So I guess you want to continue talking about force, eh?

Ok....

Who believes that smacking is right/ok/not ok/abuse etc?


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

Dang it Spyder - how many times do we have to tell you - Don't flush things down the toilet! 



>


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Originally Posted by *Marecare*  
_Yes,but I can read them and know what they mean!_


> MI I do get the impression from the above that you not only can't ride out of a wet paper bag you can't read out of one either.


 
ROFL! Sorry, I couldn't help but laugh out loud when I read that Spyder. 

I know, I know....it's true. Not only do I need serious lessons, but I also need to get an English Tutor - I'm screwed!

I'm going to have to keep an xtra close eye on the weather for sure now!


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

^^ *sigh* Guys, this is totally off-subject. We are talking about FORCE, remember?


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

> *“Color possesses me. I don't have to pursue it. It will possess me always, I know it. That is the meaning of this happy hour: Color and I are one. I am a painter.”
> 
> 
> 
> ...




ROFL!!!

Here's one:

"Stupidity is a force unto itself"

Albert Einstein


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

^ Ok. I admit, that was funny.

*ppphhtt!!!!*


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Cat said:


> Dang it Spyder - how many times do we have to tell you - Don't flush things down the toilet!


Well I didn't force him,he though he saw one of your lost marbles down there.:shock:


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

Alrighty then .... time to close this puppy.


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