# Breeding small to large breed??



## Kriva (Dec 11, 2015)

Let me start by saying I have no intentions of breeding any horses now or ever! I'm really just curious about the breeding of a small breed of horse to a large breed. My dream horse is a draft or draft cross so I look at tons of postings of horses for sale in this category. I would have assumed that if you were breeding a draft horse to a non draft horse, that it would be preferred for the health and safety of the dam that she be the larger breed and the sire be the smaller breed. That way you wouldn't end up with a smaller horse having a large baby and therefore having problems during the birthing process. But, I'm not really seeing that be the case in the draft crosses. In fact I seem to see the sire be the draft and the dam be the smaller breed more often. 

So, does it really matter? As long as it's not something so drastic as a freesian/shetland cross, is it normally the case that a draft foal won't be that much larger at birth than a non-draft foal? Generally speaking, of course. 



Also, in the case of genetics...will specific genetic traits be more dominant in a dam or sire? Or is it just the trait that will be stronger no matter what side of the parentage it comes from? I don't know enough about genetics to even be dangerous, but I'll make up an example (purely for the sake of explaining my question, not something that actually might happen)... An Arabian has more pointy ears than a QH. Will the offspring of that cross more likely have pointy ears because that trait is more dominant? Or would you have a better chance at getting pointy ears if the dam is Arab because that's a trait that's usually spread to offspring by the dam not the sire? 



As I said I'm really just curious, but I'd like to know if I'm looking at something that is say a Perch/TB cross, would it matter what parent was what breed? Would the horse tend to be stockier because one or the other of the parents was the stockier breed? Or is it just luck of the draw when you cross breed what characteristics you will get with each breeding?


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## BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 (Apr 11, 2016)

Subbing, this seems interesting.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Interesting subject. 

So, I have bred a stocky 13.2 to a TB of 16 hands with no problem. 

A TB mare, maiden was put to a Welsh Cob and had a terrible time fooling because the foal was so broad. 

With draft horse cross it is always best to put blood to bone, use a draft mare to a fine horse. The reason for this is not only foal size but also you are less likely to get the 'faults' of the draft horse. I say faults but in the draft they are considered attributes like the close /cow hocks and straighter shoulder. 

He I did, many moons ago have a 14.2 pony come to be broken. He was the result of a Shetland mare escaping her field, travelling a mile and getting in with a TB stallion. No one thought he could have covered her as it was a flat field and he towered over her. 
She produced a foal with no problems. That foal had no traits of his dam. He was quality throug and through. 
When born he was quite small but within weeks he was taller than his mother and would go down on his knees to reach the milk bar.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

The old saying that seems to hold true is 'breed blood to bone' -- so you would breed your light-breed stallion to a draft mare for the best-quality offspring. What you may get with any cross is a crapshoot, but I do see nicer draft crosses when the dam is the draft horse and the sire is the other breed. Draft mares also tend to have an easier time foaling a cross foal than a light-horse mare, although studies done have shown that in most cases, the mare's size dictates the size of the foal at birth. Still, I would worry endlessly if I had, say, a TB mare carrying a half-Shire foal. You also want to take into consideration that if you're doing live cover, a large stallion to a small mare can cause severe injury to the mare. A small stallion to a large mare can stand on a hill or you stand the mare in a hole. If there's a huge size discrepancy, best do AI.


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## Kriva (Dec 11, 2015)

Foxhunter said:


> He I did, many moons ago have a 14.2 pony come to be broken. He was the result of a Shetland mare escaping her field, travelling a mile and getting in with a TB stallion. No one thought he could have covered her as it was a flat field and he towered over her.
> She produced a foal with no problems. That foal had no traits of his dam. He was quality throug and through.
> When born he was quite small but within weeks he was taller than his mother and would go down on his knees to reach the milk bar.



LOL...where there's a will, there's a way! Interesting that he would have no traits of his dam. Hmmm....


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

Ditto what the other posters said. My mare is a splitting image of her mother, and so is her half sibling. Picking the mare is just as important as picking the stallion. But i would definitely prefer a larger mare to a smaller stallion.


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## Squeaky McMurdo (Sep 19, 2017)

This pony gelding is half Arab...the other half was a miniature horse. Where there’s a will there’s a way! Lol:rofl:


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

While it's true that the size of the uterus dictates the size of the baby, the size of the birth canal (& the gap in the pelvis) has NOTHING to do with it - or there'd never be any cases of foals getting stuck because they're too big for the birth canal! Much of this is conformational; a mare with a flat hip will have less room to birth a foal than a mare with a steeper one, for instance, unless the steep hipped mare is also extremely steep in the croup. 

I will never put a thoroughbred mare to anything heavier than a warmblood stallion. Ever. And even then I would be more comfortable with warmblood mare/thoroughbred stallion!

Massive size differences between sire and dam can and do happen without complications (Shire embryos were implanted into Shetland mares and the foals did not grow too big for the mares), but it's not something I would be comfortable risking, personally, with how many things can go wrong already.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I don't think there's any real evidence out there that a large stallion to a small mare will result in any more birth complications than you can get anyway.
The British Riding Ponies (show ponies) that have now evolved in Germany to become Sport Ponies are almost always the result of crossing a TB or WB stallion with a British or Irish native pony - most commonly the Welsh and Connemara. The smaller show type ponies have a good dash of Arabian blood
I knew someone who produced many top show cobs in the UK by crossing a Suffolk Punch stallion with welsh mares.
I used to use 16.2 plus TB stallions on my two 15 hand mares, I also used a 16.2 coloured draft stallion on one of them to get a coloured show cob - no problems at all.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

This is an interesting thread! My assumption would be breeding the smaller stud to the bigger mare, but I do know a guy who bred a lot of draft crosses out of a Percheron stud.

With cows you do take it into consideration their first year. A heifer bull is a bull with ‘calving ease,’ which means he throws lighter birth weight calves. That or you end up pulling calves. I guess in my head I would think it similar.


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

There is a study done in 2014 looking at a variety of stats, including birth weights and insulin resistance. The study can be read here. It did show there were some differences depending on the size of the dam, but the study didn't follow the foals to adulthood to see if those differences eventually normalized in time.


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## Kriva (Dec 11, 2015)

Squeaky McMurdo said:


> This pony gelding is half Arab...the other half was a miniature horse. Where there’s a will there’s a way! Lol:rofl:



Which parent was the Arab and which was the miniature horse? To me it looks like an overgrown miniature (if that makes sense). It's very cute!! Not too small so older kids could still ride, but not too tall to make smaller, less experienced, kids nervous.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

phantomhorse13 said:


> There is a study done in 2014 looking at a variety of stats, including birth weights and insulin resistance. The study can be read here. It did show there were some differences depending on the size of the dam, but the study didn't follow the foals to adulthood to see if those differences eventually normalized in time.


 With all of our mares, the foals that were a result of the Suffolk Punch on welsh mares and the foals my ex-boss bred from a 15 hand welsh x TB lightweight mare using Irish Draught stallions the foals were all born to the size of the mare. In the case of the ones using mares that had a lot of pony blood the full grown offspring were all 15 hand (never taller) standard cobs or lightweight cobs.
The offspring from our little TB mare all grew to at least 16.2, one made 17 hands and her last foal to a 14.2 welsh D made 16.2. 
Our welsh/arabian x TB mare only produced one offspring that was 16.2 full grown and that was when she was put to a Trakhener stallion. Her other foals were all 15.2 'sturdy types'
We had a mare that was by a Cleveland Bay stallion x TB mare that was 15.2 and built like a sturdy TB
We had a mare that was by a TB stallion x Cleveland bay mare that was 16.3 and looked more like a pure Cleveland Bay


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

jaydee said:


> the foals were all born to the size of the mare.


I agree this has been my experience as well, and it makes sense as having a foal too big for natural birth doesn't continue the species very well.


What I found fascinating about the study I linked was the fact that the in utero environment seems to have an effect above and beyond "just" genetics. I would not have been surprised to hear a pony foal would be more prone to IR, but to read a saddlebred foal carried by a pony mare also had an increased risk was fascinating. Just goes to show we still don't fully understand the role of hormones, etc in development.


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## SwissMiss (Aug 1, 2014)

jaydee said:


> the foals were all born to the size of the mare.



I just saw the most adorable yearling filly for sale. Mom is a 32 inch Mini and dad is a 15h Peruvian :Angel:


If there is a will, there is a way!


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## Squeaky McMurdo (Sep 19, 2017)

Kriva said:


> Which parent was the Arab and which was the miniature horse? To me it looks like an overgrown miniature (if that makes sense). It's very cute!! Not too small so older kids could still ride, but not too tall to make smaller, less experienced, kids nervous.


Mom was the mini. He was 12hh and downright dainty. I recently sold a Welsh/Shetland that was only 11hh but was build like a brick house and I felt more comfortable riding him for tune-ups than the taller guy. I would have kept him if he wasn’t so dang mean to my mares. I might breed my Shetland mare to a Welsh to get a similar pony.


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