# Riding Dangerously



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Good subject....Now I have to admit that it is 5 years since I was a trail rider, since my fall I have not gotten the courage to get back out of the arena, and I have come to accept that is just fine.


BUT...having been raised in the UK, where many barns, then, had no real facilities, I grew up hacking out, and in the UK the usually means riding on the road. Now there are trekking stables that will put all comers onto 'nose to tailers' and trundle them off round the lanes, and up over the hills with no worries. For most riders though you have to have a level of competence, and you have to keep your wits about you, ride in some form of contact, legs on, ready to ride defensively if needed. The time you spent in the dirt ring, or corner of the field was well spent, learning to keep a horse straight, and to move it round obstacles.


Riding dangerously, Oh my so many things, half trained horses, and or riders, heading out on the trail, especially when neither has a lot of experience.
People who buy a horse well above their skill level, and think that they do not need help.
Riding without 'due care and attention' people slopping not reading their horse and the area and being prepared to deal with a scary thing.


On the road, single file is often best, BUT at times we had to take a less than trusted horse out, then we would put him on the inside, and have a steady Eddy on the outside....just to give some support.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

​
Picture taken at a friend's ranch. Once the sheep are in an area, the herd is broken up. Each sheepherder works a different flock. They are often without cell phone coverage and get checked on once a week. They haven't had lessons in riding, although 12+ hour days of riding probably is quite a lesson by itself. In 30 years, none of them have needed to spend a night in a hospital and only one has needed to visit the hospital for horse related injuries.








​
Don't ride on roads with heavy traffic. Ride like this all the time, but we rarely encounter more than a car every 5 minutes. The horses are used to cars. On one occasion, spooky Mia jumped sideways at the last second as a car passed us from behind. The $&%@ driver must have been seeing how close he could come and misjudged it. If she hadn't hopped sideways, we would have been hit.

I cannot imagine riding my horses with contact for more than a minute. Don't think they can imagine it either. I view riding with contact for long periods as a safety hazard. I feel much safer when my horse has more freedom to say no.

I use a helmet, but don't insist on it for anyone. I wear one mostly because I spend time riding on pavement almost every ride. Wouldn't use one if I rode 100% in the desert.


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

I agree with you completely. If I'm out by myself someone always knows and I absolutely hate _road_ hacking and do not understand how some riders can comfortably navigate the city. In the countryside one of my older, very experienced hunter/judge instructors tells us to ride like we own the road as trying to be too nice is just begging for cars to overtake you at inconsiderate speeds. I'd like to also know peoples thoughts on that safety aspect. Some people say to go very early in the morning but drivers are usually more reckless then - going faster thanks to lack of traffic around bends and skipping lights. I much prefer road hacking in a group as people usually give more leeway to a chain than a solo rider.


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## QueenofFrance08 (May 16, 2017)

I try to avoid pavement if possible because of memories from childhood of what happens when skin contacts pavement (and that was from bikes/rollerblades) and because my mare has shoes and can't figure out how to walk on pavement without it being a slip and slide. Thankfully around our house is mostly dirt roads and I avoid the paved ones and at parks I only have to cross pavement on rare occasions never ride on it. 

I do always ride with contact when near traffic. On the trails in the woods Stitch is on a loose rein and if it gets tricky I usually hold the end of the reins, grab mane, and let her figure it out. I trust her to do that with tricky footing, not with something like a vehicle. 

I'm in agreement with @Golden Horse that half trained horses and half trained riders can be one of the most "dangerous" ways to ride and this is coming from someone with several green horses. The most terrifying ride I've ever done was a Mock Endurance ride earlier this summer when a green rider came with her very green horse. By the time we got 50 feet down the trail the horse had kicked my horse (causing her to spook and wheel), dumped its rider, and ran riderless down the trail bowling down anything in her path after she pulled away when the owner was attempting to remount. I have never seen more scared horses by the other participants and other scared riders.


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

I often ride alone, have done it for most of my nearly 60 years of riding, I am more careful now but if I didn't ride alone I wouldn't get much riding in. When I lived alone and rode a very spooky arab/appy I started riding with safety stirrups because I thought if he spooked and I got caught up in the stirrup it could be pretty bad and no one knew where we were. I started taking ID with me and my health # and sometimes I left a note on the table saying which way we were riding.

I think riding a horse that has no idea of self preservation and can't lookout for or think of his own safety is a dangerous horse and one I don't want to ride.

I am much more careful and aware of road riding now than I was and if I don't like something iffy on a trail I might not attempt it now, maybe I am getting older and smarter but why take a chance. I will even get off and lead a horse through something I'm not sure of which I would never have thought of when I was younger.

If I am going to do some road riding I like to pick Sun or Sat morning as there isn't much traffic at those times and we are lucky that most of our roads do have a good shoulder to get away from the cars, the only thing is that it's a gravel road and if cars are coming fast they can throw up stones and if they hit the horse then the horse gets nervous in traffic.

In the past I did a great deal of road riding as I lived on the edge of a city and had to ride a few miles to get to some trails. With my first horse I wore the shoes out and had to have new shoes every reset. I put a lot of miles on that horse. Fortunately he was great in traffic as I never thought anything of it and rode some very busy roads.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

What I think of as dangerous I just assume everyone else does too. Like a person should be extremely cautious on asphalt or cement because of the slippery factor. I don’t have the experience anyone else does with traffic. I was taught to remember the asphalt thing as a child. My father told me a story. He and my uncle were riding along on colts. My uncle’s colt spooked and ran away. When he came closer to the highway my uncle bailed off. My dad rode up then to ask why and he said that the horse would slip. Right as he said it the horse hit the highway and fell hard.

I won’t run on slick ground unless I have no other option, but usually I do. I do the same
with hole infested ground and trot instead of lope if it is at all possible. Take a colt in the brush with another horse before you do it for work the first time, because they will often panic about being touched by the brush. 

I don’t know... everything seems common sense. Don’t run a horse towards home unless you really know him and have prepared him. Don’t race your friends (of course, it is hard to actually follow that rule lol).


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

I ride alone often. I prefer it. My current barn is really quiet so I get lots of opportunity. I ride mostly in arenas. If I go outside it's in the hayfields and easy trails. I don't ride on the road or difficult terrain because we don't have access mainly. 

I trust my horse, he trusts me. I will ride on a loose rein on the trails when I can, but he can be nervous so I don't all the time. 

I always have my phone on me and my helmet. I don't tell people where I am if I'm out, mostly because either no one is around or it'd be easy to find me if my horse came Home without me. Last time I fell off in the field, I was riding bareback and he lurched up a hill to get out if the trees and started hopping. Landed on my feet, but I realise what could have happened. 

I see more dangerous situation in pooy matched/trained horse-rider pairs. Both undersaddle and on the ground.


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## Tazzie (Nov 8, 2011)

I definitely agree with the green rider and green horse comment. I feel some people amp up their abilities far outside the reasonable. My husband unfortunately being one of them (and I've told him this, so it's no surprise to him I'd say it). We just bought him a four year old that is super, super arena broke. Has never seen trails, though seems very sensible. So our first rides will be locally and with a group of confidence building horses who are aware he's new to trails. We prefer setting up for success rather than failure. My husband has no formal lessons, though is at least smart enough to know he needs my assistance. He's not a book reader, and at least knows you can't gain full knowledge and feel from a book even if he was a reader. He's my category of green and green, but he will never be riding alone and will only ever be with seasoned horses.

I'm not entirely against riding alone, but to be out when no one knows you are there or at least an idea of where you will be is foolish. We regularly ride in areas with no cell reception (heck, my "arena" (aka the only large flat area with no trees in the pasture) has absolutely no cell service), but I'm never alone when riding, and when we DO go down to ride, people do know since it's a total dead spot.

Riding on the road with zero contact is just foolish. Particularly if you are not willing to keep your wits about you and tune your senses to the surroundings. Nothing has EVER come up behind me while riding to startle myself or my horse since I'm always paying attention. Road riding is a necessity at times, but being prepared for the inevitable is vital. Riding on a loose rein while not paying attention to your surroundings will ultimately lead to an accident.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

I love riding alone; especially when there is moody weather like a gray, still, drizzly day, or sunshine on fresh powdery snow, or a sunset in autumn. I ride with a SPOT beacon, so unless I get knocked unconscious, if I can't move, I'll be able to summon help just as fast as a companion. I absolutely hate riding with people who are in it to socialize, not to be with their horse. I usually ride a horse that requires my full attention.

I don't have dangerous terrain, so a slip doesn't mean I'll go down an abyss. 

I always figure that I cannot be safe when my horse isn't safe, so that's how I ride. If necessary, I tell it exactly where to put its feet, though oftentimes I let the horse decide. 

I only ever got hurt riding with others, usually when an unsafe herd mentality set in or I got in the crossfire between a grumpy horse and mine. I fell off once or twice riding by myself, but I never got _hurt_. 

I absolutely hate road riding, whether it's dangerous or not. It bores the hell out of me, and I feel guilty submitting my horse's hooves to such concussive forces over a long period of time. I draw the line at dirt roads, which are usually less travelled by cars.

A lot of issues are skill dependent. Right now I'm leasing a young OTTB for the summer with no trail experience, which means he doesn't want to step over a fallen tree and he gets nervous over the change in color in a dried stream bed. But I'm not trail riding him, I'm _teaching_ him to trail ride, which means I read his body language at all times, and I don't push him to do something he's not ready yet. I _need_ him to have a good ride each and every time (meaning that he comes to trust my leadership), so he'll come back for more. A byproduct of that is that it keeps us safe, even though we ride alone.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

I hate riding along roads. Don't care much for walking along them either! We have barely any shoulder along our roads, and folks drive consistently well over the speed limit. Can't say how many pedestrians and bicycle riders have been hit/killed, but it is a lot. 

Dangerous? Absolutely.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Tazzie said:


> ... naturally there are hundreds of different opinion...I'm not entirely against riding alone, but to be out when no one knows you are there or at least an idea of where you will be is foolish...
> 
> ...Riding on the road with zero contact is just foolish...


 Calling others fools is kind of rude, particularly after acknowledging others WILL see things differently than you. The sheepherders don't know exactly where they are going to be. And if they took a bad fall in some areas, their body might never be found. But they've done it successfully for 30+ years.

As for the road with no contact...it is the only way I feel safe riding on the road. It gives my horses freedom, and my experience is that a horse who has some freedom won't explode. They get startled sometimes, but don't go bonkers. 

I don't have a rear view mirror on my horse and I cannot turn all the way around. My back cannot handle it. So no, I do NOT know the fine details of stuff behind me. But my HORSE does. He has adequate vision nearly 360 degrees and superb hearing. He IS my rear view mirror.

Dangerous? MY daughter didn't think so. Neither do I. I've worked hard to get a THINKING horse who will consult me when there is an issue. My horse as an active, thinking teammate is my best safety in riding.









​I'm not going to call anyone here a fool for disagreeing with me. I am certain many do. That is their right. They are welcome to worry about things that don't bother me, just as I refuse to ride based on their approach. Based off having TRIED controlling my horse in potentially dangerous situations, and having tried using slack reins, I'll continue with the slack reins / freedom to talk with me approach. From Tom Roberts, whose advice on riding has worked more frequently for me than anyone else:
​





But...by all means, each individual must ride based on THEIR beliefs and experience!


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I really really wish I had someone to ride with, but I don't. I ride alone or I don't ride. I left this morning with no one knowing where I was going. I returned without anyone knowing I'd returned.

It's a risk, but one that I take. I do have a S.P.O.T. with helicopter extraction. I reason that if I'm unable to push the 911 button in it, chances are a riding buddy wouldn't have been able to help me either, at least in many cases.

I do this on a horse I've ridden for four years that I know and trust and who knows and trusts me. I would not do this on a green or unknown horse SPOT or no SPOT.

Edit: The only roads I ride on are dirt without fences on either side. The instant I'm aware of an approaching vehicle, I ride off the road and stand facing the oncoming vehicle. Hondo is fine with traffic, but you never know when someone from the city will smile, honk, and wave enthusiastically just as they pass while of course intending no harm.


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## Tazzie (Nov 8, 2011)

bsms said:


> Calling others fools is kind of rude, particularly after acknowledging others WILL see things differently than you. The sheepherders don't know exactly where they are going to be. And if they took a bad fall in some areas, their body might never be found. But they've done it successfully for 30+ years.


Please go back and reread to ensure reading comprehension. I did not call anyone a fool as that would be against the rules of this forum. I stated riding in a dangerous manner is foolish, and I stand by that.

Bringing up someone's career choice is an entirely different situation than an every day rider. There are tons of jobs considered to be dangerous in this world, not just riding out to gather sheep. That is their way of life. Much like my husband works down in a manhole to repair electric to cities. It is a dangerous job, and one he accepts for his career. Comparing a way of life/job to an every day trail rider is like comparing apples to oranges. Very few on this forum are sheep herders, or cattle herders, or what have you. We are hobbyists. We do it for pleasure, not career. Surely they take adequate precautions based on their life style. They also (most likely) grew up riding, which is not the case for everyone on this forum.

I feel a rider should be aware of their surroundings at all times, period. I don't have to turn all the way around in my saddle to check behind me. But glancing over my shoulder has never let me down, and my horse has never had to spook/startle out of the way of something since I get her to where she needs to safely be before the need for that arises.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

I completely agree @Hondo! If you know the horse it is a much more calculated risk than riding that colt out his first few times. I have taken myself into situations I knew were dangerous because of lack of options, but I’m not sure it was using the brains the Lord gave me.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

I think that is true of the sheep herder’s horses too actually. Those horses are flat broke. Very sane and gentle... otherwise they wouldn’t use them for such. I don’t think that it works the way it does with cowboys in my understanding. I could be wrong, but the way I get it is that they are mounted from the beginning with broke horses. A cowboy you may mount with a couple broke horses and a colt or two. That is a difference.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Tazzie said:


> Please go back and reread to ensure reading comprehension. I did not call anyone a fool as that would be against the rules of this forum. I stated riding in a dangerous manner is foolish, and I stand by that...


My reading comprehension is fine. You asked for opinions on what constituted dangerous riding, acknowledging others would disagree about the definition. You then said definitions that differ from YOUR definition are foolish. And while that may skirt the rules of the forum, telling people who hold opinion X that opinion X is foolish is functionally the same as calling that person a fool. Because only fools hold foolish opinions.

If you feel endangered riding without contact down a road, please feel free to use full contact. I feel endangered NEEDING contact to ride down a road. If I feel a horse isn't safe to ride on slack reins down a road, then he isn't ready to ride down a road at all.

What I've done has worked very well for me. Instead of calling it foolish, maybe try exploring WHY our experiences have differed?

"_They also (most likely) grew up riding, which is not the case for everyone on this forum_."

Nope. None of them had been on a horse's back prior to arriving on the ranch, and none of them received lessons. And THAT has worked very well for decades. The ranch has an excellent safety record...being "foolish". A system of trail riding that puts an emphasis on the horse has worked. But you cannot get a trustworthy horse without giving the horse enough freedom for the horse to form judgment.

"_Those horses are flat broke. Very sane and gentle... otherwise they wouldn’t use them for such._" - @*Knave* 

1/2 or 3/4 Arabian. 1/4 to 1/2 Appy. Not a mix known for quietness. But they ARE broke, as Knave noticed. How they are 'broke' is important, I think. As foals, they follow their dams while growing up. By the time they are first saddled, they know the mountains, the desert, cars, trucks, trailers, and sheep. All they then need to learn is carrying people. They are bred for and taught judgment. 

_There was a time when "horse sense" meant "practical, sensible". It now seems to mean "highly emotional, panics at the least disturbance". Maybe there has been a change in how we treat horses?_


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

I don’t know why I am nosy today. Lol. I don’t think @Tazzie meant to call anyone anything negative. I also ride more like @bsms says, with a loose rein. Neither of you are meaning any negativity. lol

I do agree with @Tazzie in that career choices do create a different level of risk. Some of us do live that life. There is a larger risk in cowboying than in trail riding. Now, there are risks involved in being a sheep herder too, but not so much from the horses. They really are a specific kind of horse. They have the stamina to go without the intensity. They are broke to a lot of riding, though not particularly handy. They are safe horses. Again, I am not speaking for every sheep herder in existence, just the ones I know. 

That’s what I mean by calculated risk.


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## Tazzie (Nov 8, 2011)

bsms said:


> My reading comprehension is fine. You asked for opinions on what constituted dangerous riding, acknowledging others would disagree about the definition. You then said definitions that differ from YOUR definition are foolish. And while that may skirt the rules of the forum, telling people who hold opinion X that opinion X is foolish is functionally the same as calling that person a fool. Because only fools hold foolish opinions.
> 
> If you feel endangered riding without contact down a road, please feel free to use full contact. I feel endangered NEEDING contact to ride down a road. If I feel a horse isn't safe to ride on slack reins down a road, then he isn't ready to ride down a road at all.
> 
> ...


No, what *I* am calling foolish (and still not calling someone a fool as we have ALL had foolish moments in our lives, and I do not feel this forum is comprised of all fools), is not paying a lick of attention to your (general your, for clarification) surroundings and relying solely on an animal known to be a flight animal. I am NOT saying you shouldn't trust your horse to find the clear path down bad terrain, and often give my own mare (who typically works on contact in an "arena" mind you) her head to navigate the trails since she will know her footing better than I would. What I AM saying is in a situation where you are involving others (IE, road riding), it is DANGEROUS to rely solely on an animal that can fly sideways into oncoming traffic due to garbage cans, mailboxes, or a squirrel that wasn't there yesterday. As was posted above by AnitaAnne, TONS of pedestrians and cyclists are hit and killed by vehicles. And they are under their own power, not mixing a 1000 lb animal into the equation with a mind of it's own.

I have absolutely nothing against riding on a loose rein. My best friend regularly rides on a loose rein while we trail ride, as do I. Yes, my dressage queen knows how to ride without contact. What I do not agree with is saying "I ride on the road in a loose rein all the time and I've never been hurt, just had one near miss. So it's not bad." Some kid will see that with their green horse, try it, and get hurt or killed as the horse was not ready for that situation. There is contact, and then there is enough slack out of the reins to ensure the ability to think quick. I'm not saying to frame a horse up for competition, or hold on for dear life. I'm talking the ability to not have to gather your reins in a hurry to get yourself out of a bad situation.

As for the sheep herders, they've been very fortunate to not have major issues. They are also broke differently, I'm sure, than the every day trail rider. Again, that is a lifestyle and what is discussed here is a hobby. You see many people in this thread commenting they ride alone, and you don't see me complaining that they do even though I'm an advocate to not. But if you read, you'll also notice multiple have at least some form of safety net to help in the event of an accident.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Tazzie said:


> I'm curious to see what you all mark down as riding dangerously.
> 
> Here are my thoughts. I'm a HUGE advocate for never riding alone.


99% of my riding is done alone. And I actually do like it that way. It's my "me" time and I can get training goals done with my horses. 

I do always carry my phone with me when I ride (attached to me, and not the horse) but of course, the phone does you no good if you are knocked unconscious.  But hubby knows when I am riding. He doesn't know all the areas I ride, but there's honestly only so many directions I can go (where I ride). And I don't decide where I am going until I am on the horse.

Anyway, there's risk when riding a horse. I'll take my chances and go out riding when and where I please, by myself. No, I don't consider it dangerous. Even though you might.




Tazzie said:


> There is risk taking (which frankly any time we ride it's a risk) and then there is *riding foolishly* (riding alone in an area considered dangerous).


You know, sometimes people don't have a choice. Say, for example, the cattle rancher in Montana who is out (alone) looking for a missing calf in the mountains. Something could absolutely happen while he is out looking, and probably wouldn't have cell phone service. I would not say he is acting foolishly. He is just doing his job and doing what needs to be done.



Tazzie said:


> Another of mine is when riding on the road. My mare is fantastic and will ride on a loose rein wherever I need her to go. *However, I feel on a road your horse should have some contact in case of an emergency. * I've seen TONS of videos of horses and riders being hit by cars. Whether the horse spooks, the car is clueless, or the riders are taking up the road. Which is why I feel the safest position when road riding is single file, close to the shoulder. Of course accidents can still happen (we are riding flight animals), but to me it makes sense to reduce your risk as much as you can.



I'm going to disagree with riding with contact, _to an extent_. Let me explain. 

My horses are seasoned trail horses. Doesn't mean they can't spook from something, but I do trust them. They are used to walking along on a loose rein on the trail. So to me, if I pick up contact and "hold them", that might give them reason to be NERVOUS because I am doing something different that I don't normally do. If I am "on guard", they will be "on guard" and much more prone to spooking.

Now of course, I certainly don't advocate to walk along with a _huge_ loop of slack in your reins as a car is about to zip by. But I think having a the reins just loose enough to not have contact on your horse's mouth is fine. Because all you have to do is move your hand a couple inches to pick up on them.

Having contact is not going to stop them from spooking, and you will still have to pick up _more_ contact from where you started anyway. So you are still moving your hand anyway.




Tazzie said:


> I definitely agree with the green rider and green horse comment. I feel some people amp up their abilities far outside the reasonable. My husband unfortunately being one of them (and I've told him this, so it's no surprise to him I'd say it). We just bought him a four year old that is super, super arena broke. Has never seen trails, *though seems very sensible*. So our first rides will be locally and with a group of confidence building horses who are aware he's new to trails. We prefer setting up for success rather than failure. My husband has no formal lessons, though is at least smart enough to know he needs my assistance. He's not a book reader, and at least knows you can't gain full knowledge and feel from a book even if he was a reader. He's my category of green and green, but he will never be riding alone and will only ever be with seasoned horses.


Honestly, what your hubby is doing is downright dangerous in my eyes. He is knowingly getting on a young green horse who does not have trail experience, and he is green himself as a rider. It doesn't matter to me that he will not be riding alone. It's still green + green.

I have a non-horsey husband. I would NEVER NEVER put him in a green horse. Never. It is too risky. The likelihood of an accident is too high. "Seems very sensible" means nothing to me when that horse has never been exposed to anything outside of the arena. You have no idea how that horse is going to react.


Whether he is alone or surrounded by riders won't matter if he gets bucked off and breaks his neck upon impact.


Clearly you disagree as you are allowing it to happen, but that's my opinion on the situation.



Tazzie said:


> I did not call anyone a fool as that would be against the rules of this forum. I stated riding in a dangerous manner is foolish, and I stand by that.



But you did say....

_"I'm not entirely against riding alone, but to be out when no one knows you are there or at least an idea of where you will be is foolish."

"Riding on the road with zero contact is just foolish."_

....when others might not see these things as dangerous behavior. 



Not sure there is a difference between calling someone a fool versus saying what you are doing is foolish???

A fool (as a noun) is a person who acts unwisely or imprudently.
Foolish (as an adjective) is a person lacking good sense or judgement; unwise.


Anywho, semantics aside......


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

I've found that what people think is dangerous can vary depending on what they've conditioned themselves to.

For example, I've ridden with people who jumped large, solid obstacles that would trigger my danger alarms. Anything would stand me on my head if the horse flipped I feel is dangerous. Yet they were very nervous about riding a half mile down a rural road.

I have a lot of experience riding on asphalt. On a sunny day, if my horse is barefoot, he could trot off and have no danger of slipping. Saying a person needs bit contact to ride on a road is like saying a person needs bit contact to ride on trails. There are as many different types of roads as there are trails. You can be on a rural straight road where you can see for literally miles. No one is going to be in danger riding on a loose rein here, unless perhaps you find an unexpected snake sunning.









Many roads I've been on, you could hear cars coming from a long distance away and get off to the side. Then it was all dependent on the horse's experience and temperament. Some horses you might just sit calmly and let them graze as a big log truck goes by. Some horses you might hop off and hold them by the reins. 

On highways, it also is about knowing your environment plus your horse. Where are you and who are you riding around? Is it the morning somewhere with commuter traffic? Is it the evening and people are tired and/or drinking? Is there visibility? What is the speed limit? Also I've never ridden on the road when there was traffic, but only gone where there was a wide shoulder. It would be foolish to try to ride with cars and expect them to move for you. 

Dangerous to me is jumping over something when you don't know what is on the other side. It is going too fast on a horse that doesn't turn well. It is going too fast with poor footing. It is riding too close to another horse's rump. It's going too fast down a trail after a storm, not knowing if a tree will be down up ahead. It's going too fast down a slippery hill. Dangerous is riding around drunk people, or people who have dangerously out of control dogs. 

I've ridden alone a lot. Sometimes in the mountains there is no cell service. It doesn't feel particularly dangerous to me, but I have no doubt if my horse was able to, he would run home faster than I could send someone. That would get people out looking quickly. Most people I ride with wouldn't be able to give me much medical help anyway, and many of them wouldn't make it home very fast, especially if they were trying to lead my horse.

The truth is that something that is not dangerous for me might be very dangerous for you. And vice versa.


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

I grew up riding the country roads near my home. Now the semi traffic stops me from doing that unless I totally have to. For me personally the biggest danger riding is the complete lack of courtesy by other riders - namely they think your horse should be bombproof.

Here are 2 fairly recent examples:

2014 - I was riding my young gelding with a group of friends and my hubby. There were 5 of us total. We were at a state park where a lot of riders go. As someone else mentioned we used the buddy method for me green gelding to help him learn to cross water, pass strange horses on the trail etc. We were nearing the end of a 2 hour ride and my gelding had done wonderfully. We come upon riders on the trail. They moved off of the trail to let us pass. As we were passing one of the riders pulled on a lead rope attached to a draft horse their young son was riding- the draft had tucked his head to eat so the parent jerked on the rope - it shot up off of the ground and the draft pulled back just as we were passing. My gelding shied violently - slamming us sideways into a tree - he was terrified of the rope and the draft pulling back on that rope. other horses in my group shied as well and scattered. My gelding then tried to bolt as it was a cluster with parents yelling, horses scrambling. I spun my gelding around and around trying to get him calm. Once I got him to stand the Dad got off of his horse and aggressively walked toward me - causing my gelding to spin away again. Hubby and some of my friends jump off of their horses to stop Dad and to help me get off of my now trembling horse. The Dad was mad because "I should know people bring their kids to this park and I could have gotten his kid killed" By now I am livid - my poor gelding did not really do anything wrong but shy from a rope that came zinging up off of the ground and a draft that was pulling back. I could not even mount my horse to get back to the trailer and walked that last mile or so with my hubby. My gelding never got over that and was always scared when we passed other riders on the trail

Same gelding as above the year I had 30 days put on him (so 2015 or so) I paid to do a desensytizing clinic with him. It cost me almost $400 - police cars, smoke bombs, dogs, deep water, chasing a ball. We had a blast! The final reward was a trail ride - the clinician opened the trail ride to some of her students - all of which were wanna be barrel racers. from the start of the ride I was unhappy - my gelding was a large 16.1H appy and they put a lady on a Fresian behind us. This woman could not control this horse and they kept telling her to stay close to my gelding - who was 4 and on his first trail ride! that Fresian stepped on his fetlocks, poked her head on his bottom crowded him almost the entire ride. With a terrified owner who had "always wanted a Fresian because they are so elegant" I was miserable and no matter how I tried to ditch her she stuck like glue. As the ride came to an end and we headed to the barn said Fresian shied at something - terrified owner applied the death grab with her legs horse bolted off into the corn fields - rider screaming the entire way. Now we have a melee with other horses trying to bolt, riders trying to jump off and clinician and helpers trying to track down pretty Fresian. Green on green scenario

So I just want to say that the biggest issue is *rider arrogance*. yes- your horse may be used to dogs on the trail, bells on your saddle, ponying other horses, rider playing the banjo - whatever - but that does not mean my horse is used to those things.


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

I totally agree 100%. I like riding alone, but I have yet to TRAIL alone (except once around the property at my old barn, but that wasn't being truly alone).

My close friend rides alone a lot on trails in Fair Hill, but she always lets me and her husband know and keeps in contact! 

I am not ready to take Promise out alone just yet (as we have only done a few trails so far), but when I am, I most certainly will make sure everyone knows my whereabouts. I would like to take her alone at least a few times, it'd be good for her.
BUT, I have to know the area, & be comfortable with it. Like I am with Fair Hill.

This new place we trailed yesterday was HUGE, it was beautiful...but I would NOT take my horse out there alone because I don't know it yet & there's a lot more wildlife than at FH.

In FH, there's always people walking, bikers, riders, etc. so that is a pretty safe place.
However, things can still happen!

I never ride on a main road. Only in the neighborhood, but that's pretty safe! Not narrow.

That being said, I ALSO ride my mare on a loose rein. But I know when I need to have contact (like you said, on a road or even in an area where I am unsure).

I couldn't imagine going out & not telling ANYONE where I will be...that's just asking for problems. :icon_rolleyes: No thanks! :lol:


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## Tazzie (Nov 8, 2011)

beau159 said:


> Honestly, what your hubby is doing is downright dangerous in my eyes. He is knowingly getting on a young green horse who does not have trail experience, and he is green himself as a rider. It doesn't matter to me that he will not be riding alone. It's still green + green.
> 
> I have a non-horsey husband. I would NEVER NEVER put him in a green horse. Never. It is too risky. The likelihood of an accident is too high. "Seems very sensible" means nothing to me when that horse has never been exposed to anything outside of the arena. You have no idea how that horse is going to react.
> 
> ...


Allow me to clarify. He is currently only riding the horse (who has had two solid years of training) in our area. For his first few REAL trail rides, I will be the rider and he will be riding my seasoned horse. As stated, he is super arena broke, but not trail broke. He is riding in our fake arena, and only riding around our property currently.

We have all done foolish things, so again. To call everyone a fool would be ridiculous. I am not implying anyone here is a fool. I do feel riding on a road with a loose rein with cars is dangerous. We will have to agree to disagree, particularly when some have had close calls and still feel it's ok to tell others it's fine to do so.

As I posted above though, you've at least set up some safety nets to ensure you are safe.



gottatrot said:


> I've found that what people think is dangerous can vary depending on what they've conditioned themselves to.
> 
> For example, I've ridden with people who jumped large, solid obstacles that would trigger my danger alarms. Anything would stand me on my head if the horse flipped I feel is dangerous. Yet they were very nervous about riding a half mile down a rural road.
> 
> ...


The roads we live on are steep with tons of blind curves, and it's a glorified one lane road. People have to use the shoulder to pass one another going in opposite directions. I have not ridden on our road, but if we did it would be on contact as you would have to react immediately. Cars are generally going around 40 MPH here as well.

As for the jumping solid objects or not knowing what is on the other side, I agree 100% that that is a dangerous situation.



carshon said:


> I grew up riding the country roads near my home. Now the semi traffic stops me from doing that unless I totally have to. For me personally the biggest danger riding is the complete lack of courtesy by other riders - namely they think your horse should be bombproof.
> 
> Here are 2 fairly recent examples:
> 
> ...


Neither of those situations sound good whatsoever, yikes. Thankfully I haven't had to deal with inconsiderate people while on the trail, and I'm thankful I don't.


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## Spanish Rider (May 1, 2014)

Riding dangerously, according to my personal experience-based criteria:

- Green + Green
- Riding without a helmet (again, MY criteria - but I'm still walkin' and talkin')
- Riding a horse alone after any change in tack/barn/area/weather/clipping/feed (including when the nutrient-rich spring hay first comes in), or their combinations (ex., clipping and cold weather)
- Riding a horse without regard for other horses/people, including horse temperament/sex and rider ability
- Riding a horse at full gallop in the presence of other mounted horses, unless having conferred with and obtained the consent of other riders


Personally, I prefer not to ride alone, and I avoid asphalt at all costs, yet our horses are quite used to it as the path between the ring and barn is concrete and asphalt.


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

I also want to add that I think not taking the footing of an area into consideration.

Not every horse is sure-footed! One wrong move & it can get bad.


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## Roperchick (Feb 1, 2010)

Charlie is one of the most sure footed, steady eddies you can get. Does that mean I throw my reins on his neck and take a nap? Nope.


I would put just about anybody on him and trust that he would do his level best to keep the rider on his back and have a smooth ride and he wont be a dummy. But just last month I took hom on the trail and we ended up having a bulldozer knock down a line of trees across the trail directly on front of us. I was riding aware and I could hear the machinery working so yes. I had my reins shorter than I normally would and had some contact and kept him under control and we safely rode away from that "monster". A Novice rider would have been on the ground and he would be a mile back towards the trailer by the time the rider got up and dusted off. (But. I would not take a novice rider near that kind of work being done regardless)

Even the BEST TRAINED HORSES can and will spook. You CANNOT prepare your horse for every single thing you may encounter, whether on a trail or in an arena.


My dead broke mare spooked and almost tossed me in the middle of a reining pattern because a kid at county fair came running down the bleachers towards her with a giant dolphin balloon. Things happen.

The most dangerous riding imo is anybody (regardless of discipline, experience, training of the horse etc) riding without being aware of their surroundings and realizing that horses are living beings and They wont always respond the exact same way 100% of the time. The right set of circumstances could be a life changer. So riding aware and with a little bit of suspicion seems common sense to me.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

I had a long reply typed up here and the darn thing disappeared rats...

And now got called away! Got to go read again before pisting


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## kewpalace (Jul 17, 2013)

Roperchick said:


> The most dangerous riding imo is anybody (regardless of discipline, experience, training of the horse etc) riding without being aware of their surroundings and realizing that horses are living beings and They wont always respond the exact same way 100% of the time. The right set of circumstances could be a life changer. So riding aware and with a little bit of suspicion seems common sense to me.


I agree with this - this is my definition of "dangerous riding" as well. Doesn't matter where you are - on the trail, in the arena, in the barn, in the saddle, on the ground - you must be aware of your surroundings when you are around horses since you are dealing with a horse with a brain of its own. I have seen more wrecks (and could see them coming) of clueless people or those who are so ultrafocused that are not aware of their surroundings and ride straight into trouble. 

While there are times I will shorten my reins in certain situations of I can be prepared, I rarely take contact since that is a sure fire clue to my horse that "something is WRONG and I need to ACT". Of course, English trained horses who are used to contact, it would not be an issue. 

I, like many who have already posted, ride alone A LOT since I would not get to ride if I didn't. Also I use trail rides for training/schooling since I don't have an arena, so will walk, trot, lop at various point of my ride for different purposes and do other things w/out notice. It is harder to do that someone else with me. Plus, I love the solitude of being out in the middle of no where with just my horse and I. Usually someone knows where I am and I have my cell phone on me. 

I am not fond of riding on asphalt but do on occasion. I try to get off asap as I don't like it. My horse doesn't really seem to care.




Roperchick said:


> My dead broke mare spooked and almost tossed me in the middle of a reining pattern because a kid at county fair came running down the bleachers towards her with a giant dolphin balloon. Things happen.


My mare was not dead broke (I think she was 4 at this time), but she was pretty solid and still spooked big time on me during a reining pattern, too! We were coming into a lead change and some dopey person decided to move cows at that point and all you could see were their legs under the arena gate. She had no clue what that was and was NOT having any of it. I think she went 20' sideways, LOL. I stayed on and we used the rest of the run (since I was DQ'd at that point) for schooling.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

> . Allow me to clarify. He is currently only riding the horse (who has had two solid years of training) in our area. For his first few REAL trail rides, I will be the rider and he will be riding my seasoned horse. As stated, he is super arena broke, but not trail broke. He is riding in our fake arena, and only riding around our property currently.
> 
> We have all done foolish things, so again. To call everyone a fool would be ridiculous. I am not implying anyone here is a fool. I do feel riding on a road with a loose rein with cars is dangerous. We will have to agree to disagree, particularly when some have had close calls and still feel it's ok to tell others it's fine to do so.


 @Tazzie that sounds entirely sensible, a horse that is arena broke should at least have the basics, hopefully he will remember them when out and about. Lol, we both know the pitfalls of sensitive Arabs though, at least some of them got very worried when you gave them confused signals, through lack of knowledge, and they tried to figure out what you wanted.
@carshon, I agree, rider arrogance, and will add to that woeful or wilfull ignorance, is very dangerous. We ride the way we do for a reason..because it works, but I still believe we owe it to our horses to actually learn to ride them before setting out on our own, and trying to invent the wheel. 

I have taught myself to sew over the last few months, making some bits and pieces for my show outfit, and some buckle protectors so I don’t get great big allergy rashes on my belly anymore. I read stuff, watched videos, then started practising, it wasn’t as easy to control that machine as I thought, some of it is technical, RTFM, a lot of it seems to be feel, and some experience. I did a lot of practising with scrap material before I ever set scissors and thread on the real material. 

We don’t get that privilege with horses, you mess one up, you can’t throw it away and start again.

Yes we have all done foolish things, but we learn and move on...eyes on the ground, having someone with you, wearing a helmet, all these are safe and prudent things.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Tazzie said:


> ...it is DANGEROUS to rely solely on an animal that can fly sideways into oncoming traffic due to garbage cans, mailboxes, or a squirrel that wasn't there yesterday. As was posted above by AnitaAnne, TONS of pedestrians and cyclists are hit and killed by vehicles. And they are under their own power, not mixing a 1000 lb animal into the equation with a mind of it's own...


Maybe the fact that pedestrians and cyclists DON'T have a horse is part of why they get hit. A horse who has been exposed to traffic - slowly, and given a chance to figure it out - will do his best to stay safe. He has nearly 360 degrees of vision, superb directional hearing, and he CAN determine the position and actions of a car behind us far better than I can. I do NOT have a rear view mirror and I cannot twist around constantly to see if a car is going to deliberately swerve into us in a malicious act.

We had a miss - a near miss is still a miss - precisely because I was on a horse, and my 900 lb horse who COULD see the malicious act took action. If my horse had relied on MY knowledge and judgment, we would have been HIT.

"_Now of course, I certainly don't advocate to walk along with a huge loop of slack in your reins as a car is about to zip by. But I think having a the reins just loose enough to not have contact on your horse's mouth is fine. Because all you have to do is move your hand a couple inches to pick up on them._" - @*beau159* 

Exactly. I've never in my life ridden with drooping reins. I do use slack. Unless I need to be directive, and then as long as continuing direction is needed. Bandit, bless his heart, necks reins with one hand better than a lot of horses I've met ridden with two hands.

But here is the point: Where I live, everybody I've ever seen ride a horse down a street does so with brief, intermittent contact. I never see anyone riding down the road with a straight line from bit to hand to elbow. Just isn't done. If it is dangerous enough to be called foolish, then there sure are a lot of old fools here! Healthy old fools, too...

Mia and now Bandit both require an ACTIVE rider. Neither had/has any tolerance for a daydreaming passenger. Both act more sensibly when trusted: 

"_...if I pick up contact and "hold them", that might give them reason to be NERVOUS because I am doing something different that I don't normally do. If I am "on guard", they will be "on guard" and much more prone to spooking._" - @*beau159* 

That is how Mia, Bandit, Trooper and Cowboy all respond. If their riders holds them in the reins, they get tense fast. Irritable too. Something is OBVIOUSLY wrong, and now they need to figure out what it is!

Others might have had different experiences. A lot will depend on how the horse was trained. I can't tell anyone how to ride THEIR horse. I can say what works best on mine. Bandit knows full well he hears better than me. He can smell better than me. And he has better vision behind us than me. OTOH, once I see something, I do a better job of assessing the threat and coming up with a plan. So...he points things out to me. I assess and determine a plan. He then carries out the plan, while staying alert for new threats. We've worked hard to reach this. It makes sense to both of us. It works where we live. No one else has to do it our way...but a number of lifelong riders where I live tell me they do the same thing.


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## dogpatch (Dec 26, 2017)

I've been a carriage driver for 40+ years, and the majority of that has been on paved roads with no shoulders. The horses wear hoof boots for traction and KNEE boots to prevent knee injuries in case of a slip on the pavement. Distracted/impatient drivers have become the greatest hazard. Just yesterday, I was signalling for, and totally committed to, a left hand turn, when I looked back to see that the car behind me had begun to overtake me. Now, we have large flashing amber and red lights on the carriage, AND, a Class 1 strobe on a mast, plus the usual slow moving vehicle sign. Trying to scream CAUTION! here. That's not the worst. I've had a driver overtake and pass me on a clear stretch, when it was QUITE PLAIN that there was an oncoming car very close! That car was obliged to stop as the car passing me continued on in the path of the oncoming car. I've had a couple of life-threatening riding injuries over the years, and I stick out like a sore thumb at the trail head because of all my safety gear. Helmet, air vest, toe cages and sticky breeches against giant thigh blocks. I keep it close to home these days, but if I was "going bush", I'd also ride with a personal locator beacon and a GPS. Because of all the distracted equestrians out there, it seems dangerous to not take adequate precautions. My worst injury was C-1 broken in three places, from a stumble/fall at a quiet walk in my own arena. So my view of "what's dangerous" is considerably inflated.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Like many others I ride alone mostly. I carry a phone, much good it would do me, cell phone barely works at my house much less the mountains behind. I rode my filly out alone as soon as I got her back from her 60 day starting. It was a little hairy at times, but there simply is no other way I know of to make a solo trail horse than to go out alone, and no matter what the training on the horse, they are green when they first go out alone, at least green to the trail. 

So we went out alone and we still do. I have never come off on the trail, except once when I was standing with another rider and I decided to put on my rain coat, which I had never done before. Shouldn't have done that. 

I don't daydream on the trail. We have bears and moose. Although the biggest spook I have sat since I got here was when we came cantering around a curve and there was a new tree down across the trail. I don't daydream when I ride, period. Daydreaming -- that is dangerous.

I think riding in groups with bad trail manners and bad mannered horses is more dangerous than riding alertly alone with a trusted trail horse. I've been nearly kicked, and my horse nearly bitten, by somebody's mean sour horse. I've been run up behind by somebody who couldn't stop their ill-trained horse. I've ridden with people who don't understand the correct procedure for crossing a busy road, for letting bicycles past, for all kinds of things. I've ridden with people who couldn't get back up on their horse once off, because their horse wouldn't stand and they were too out of shape to get their foot in the stirrup. I've often ridden with people who talk nonstop and I can't pay attention to my horse and my footing and my surroundings the way I feel I need to. 

Riding in traffic is dangerous, yes, and I avoid it if ever I can. 

And bad footing is dangerous. That's where a good experienced trail horse will save you if you trust them to pick their way.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I'm pretty certain that a ton of people can be found in this world that staunchly assert that taking any unnecessary risks is foolish and only done by fools. By that definition, we may all be fools. TIC!


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## elkdog (Nov 28, 2016)

Poor flatlanders!


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Hondo said:


> I'm pretty certain that a ton of people can be found in this world that staunchly assert that taking any unnecessary risks is foolish and only done by fools. By that definition, we may all be fools. TIC!


Once you lay out the opportunity cost of inaction, though, their heads might explode!


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## charrorider (Sep 23, 2012)

I ride solo about two thirds of the time. I just like it. I trust my skills and my horse. I tell my wife where I'm going. That's the only precaution I take and I'm not sure how much good it would do. The trails I used are primitive and rarely do I see another rider. I'm not bothered by any of it. I don't think it is more dangerous than getting inside a car and hitting the road. Having said all that, my horses are out on the pasture 24/7. And I think those horses are more confident and less likely to panic than stalled horses.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

So the topic is riding dangerously.........and the overwhelming response is don't ride alone? I do that all the time......just rode alone this evening. On the trails, by myself. On a loose rein, daydreaming. I must be crazy, ha ha! 

What do I consider dangerous riding? Racing, jumping, driving, speed events, all of those I would be too chicken to do. I don't even ride bareback anymore (I did as a teen). I used to fantasize about getting a driving horse, but now I think that is too risky because the wrecks are BIG when the horse is pulling a vehicle. 

The scariest part of my trail rides, solo or with friends, is always the neighborhood getting to the forest. It's less than a mile, on a dirt road, but on that trek I could encounter dogs, ATV's, cars, kids, etc. I find that much scarier than anything out on the forest. My horses are used to elk and deer but dogs or ATV's rushing towards us gives me heart palpatations! The forest is so much safer than the road. 

So I do agree that roads are dangerous places to ride. But they are dangerous both alone and with other riders. Riding alone, in and of itself, I don't feel is overly risky. As a matter of fact, I feel my horses listen to me better alone, especially my greenie. Yes, he can be spooky and I have some anxiety riding him. But I feel safer riding him alone because he is listening to ME (not locking onto another horse) and I can control the variables of the ride. I've found when riding with other people, I often get pushed into situations that I don't feel safe doing. Whereas when I ride alone, if I think an obstacle is scary (going down a steep embankment for example) I can just not do it. But with other people, sometimes I get pushed into uncomfortable situations. So from that perspective, riding alone is safer!

And another reason I don't like riding with others......dogs! Almost everyone wants to bring their dogs. And my greenie can get spooked by dogs crashing through the brush. So to me, riding with dogs is also on my list of "dangerous riding."


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

in my area people AVOID each other! i kid you not EVERY boarder i talk to talks about comeing out at odd times to not be around other people. i have ridden by myself 90% of the time. the ONLY times i have EVER had accidents is when i was riding with others. go figure. i would LIKE to ride with other people but apparently people dont want to share horsie time with others unless its the dressage trainers and then its 2-3 BIG horses (Hanoverian/TB gelding and a Friesian gelding) moveing BIG in the arena so no room for me lol.

as for riding on the road. Im in the city. most of the riding i have done is along the road. Luckily my arab is unflappable and had withstould everything imaginable, including people yelling and hollering when they see us on the sidewalk. had one idiot throw a water bottle at us once. bounced off my mares neck. she snorted but did not miss a step... i may have needed to change my pants because i thought it was going to get ugly. i HATE riding along the roads but if i wanted to ride off the property or out of the small arena (where i used to board) i had to ride along roads. I have not trail ridden in years (arab is JUST getting back into work and the others are idiots on the trail) but if i wanted to hit the trails i would still have to ride along roads and one is a busy road. 

i dont like riding along the roads though because people are idiots. my fiance got hit by a drunk driver while riding along the side of the road. he was on the bridle path (trails the city puts in along roads for bikes and horses) so he was not CLOSE to the road. still lost his horse and his life briefly. took months of rehab to walk and tie his own shoes.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

i wanted to add this. this was part of my dailt ride to trails. people on that road go 40-50 (speed limit is 35 but no ones cares apparently). it is a very busy road and i drive it to work every day still even though i dont board in that area anymore.
ignore my rambling. it was 2013 and i was young then ****!


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

trailhorserider said:


> So the topic is riding dangerously.........and the overwhelming response is don't ride alone? I do that all the time......just rode alone this evening. On the trails, by myself. On a loose rein, daydreaming. I must be crazy, ha ha!
> 
> What do I consider dangerous riding? Racing, jumping, driving, speed events, all of those I would be too chicken to do. I don't even ride bareback anymore (I did as a teen). I used to fantasize about getting a driving horse, but now I think that is too risky because the wrecks are BIG when the horse is pulling a vehicle.
> 
> ...


You need to ride with a dog so your horse gets used to dogs!

I agree with pretty much everything you said otherwise. My horse has startled me many more times when I'm with others than alone, because I just can't pay attention to all the people and horses and my own horse as well (I'm unusually handicapped in the attention department, I'm pretty sure). I think my horse feels the pressure of keeping up just as much as I do,and will rush things she's afraid of, when in company, not to be left behind, that she would work her way through carefully if by herself. 

I'm training my pony to drive, and I don't think I will be driving alone for a long time if ever, there is just too big a potential for a wreck. I think the danger is more for the horse than me. After all, I might fall out of the cart, which is a lot closer to the ground than being on top of my horse, but the pony will then be loose and panicked and dragging a cart, what could be worse? 

One thing that is super duper obvious is jumping. Not having grown up in a jumping culture, I find it a tad amazing how breezily people put kids on big horses and push them to gallop around leaping over obstacles, as though that is the whole goal of getting on a horse. Yikes, is all I can say. When you consider that horses by their physical build are not exactly built to do that, by and large (compare: dog, cat). Now that is something that is dangerous. 

We should all reflect though, that most accidents with horses happen on the ground! Yeah lots of dramatic wrecks involve shying, bucking, and jumping, but statistically, you are safer on top of the horse. 

One of the worst ground accidents I ever heard of was something my trainer saw, when a woman led a horse between a trailer and a tied horse at a show. My trainer could see the led horse didn't want to do it and was already alarmed when the woman insisted. The tied horse double barreled the led horse who came right over the top of the woman. Airlift to the hospital.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Avna said:


> You need to ride with a dog so your horse gets used to dogs!


Mine dont spook at dogs BUT my old guy has NO tolerance for dogs. he dose NOT go on trail rides where people feel they need their dog to tag along. If the person cant keep their dog close to them and away from Rocket they won't HAVE a dog by the end of the ride. i know quite a few horses who feel that way. my arab has also almost fallen over because a dog was underfoot and tripped her up. IMO riding with dogs and having to keep an eye on them is dangerous. considering a lot of people try and walk their dogs on trails off leash (and they should NOT be off leash). I carry a gun when i trail ride. its for dogs. as horrible as it sounds there have been too many dog attacks on horses and riders. i was supposed to ride with someone one day but i was late so they left without me. horse got mauled by two dogs, mare miscarried the foal and was on stall rest for 3 months with massive gashes on her legs, face and girth area.

after that i was chased by 4 dogs on a trail. lab came up and tried to attack my mares belly while we loped down the trail. i had to spin her around and try to run them down so they stopped trying to bite her and chase us to the road. guy finally got hold of his dogs and did not even say sorry.

I can only imagine how much of a mess that would be if i had a dog with me. trying to NOT get mauled, trying to protect my horse AND a dog.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

KigerQueen said:


> Mine dont spook at dogs BUT my old guy has NO tolerance for dogs. he dose NOT go on trail rides where people feel they need their dog to tag along. If the person cant keep their dog close to them and away from Rocket they won't HAVE a dog by the end of the ride. i know quite a few horses who feel that way. my arab has also almost fallen over because a dog was underfoot and tripped her up. IMO riding with dogs and having to keep an eye on them is dangerous. considering a lot of people try and walk their dogs on trails off leash (and they should NOT be off leash). I carry a gun when i trail ride. its for dogs. as horrible as it sounds there have been too many dog attacks on horses and riders. i was supposed to ride with someone one day but i was late so they left without me. horse got mauled by two dogs, mare miscarried the foal and was on stall rest for 3 months with massive gashes on her legs, face and girth area.
> 
> after that i was chased by 4 dogs on a trail. lab came up and tried to attack my mares belly while we loped down the trail. i had to spin her around and try to run them down so they stopped trying to bite her and chase us to the road. guy finally got hold of his dogs and did not even say sorry.
> 
> I can only imagine how much of a mess that would be if i had a dog with me. trying to NOT get mauled, trying to protect my horse AND a dog.


Wow. Why are there so many loose dogs? That sounds crazy!

I take my little Aussie with me when I go out alone, she is never a problem being extremely obedient by nature and not a chaser of wildlife nor aggressive toward anything. She is never underfoot and most of the time I forget she is even there. But I don't take her when I go out with anyone else unless I have approval from them. If I had your situation I am sure I'd leave her at home. I have never seen a loose dog on the trail out here -- they are always with people and either on leash or get called in and put on leash when the horses are spotted. But that's probably because Massachusetts.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

bsms said:


> Maybe the fact that pedestrians and cyclists DON'T have a horse is part of why they get hit. A horse who has been exposed to traffic - slowly, and given a chance to figure it out - will do his best to stay safe. He has nearly 360 degrees of vision, superb directional hearing, and he CAN determine the position and actions of a car behind us far better than I can. I do NOT have a rear view mirror and I cannot twist around constantly to see if a car is going to deliberately swerve into us in a malicious act.
> 
> .


IMO it is pure luck/fate if anyone survives going along our roads no matter what one is on or in. 

When driving a car we have to drive defensively, and the same holds true if one is walking, on a bicycle, motorcycle, or a horse. 

Our roads are hilly and there is no shoulder. The pavement does not extend past the lane of traffic by more than 6 inches. Every road has a ditch along it, how deep is the only question. Can be one foot or four feet deep. 

If the speed limit is 35mph, then the cars will be driving at least 50mph. My ex got a ticket for doing 60mph driving through the downtown area with traffic lights every 1/10 of a mile. The posted speed was 35mph. He said he had to get back to work after lunch :icon_rolleyes:

The bicycle riders tend to stick in groups of at least 2 but usually 4 and ride right in the lane of traffic now. They feel a little safer that way. 


I used to ride along the roads when I was a kid, but then it was more country and most folks would slow down and be considerate. Not so anymore now the town has grown out so much. Now the drivers seem to want to play "chicken" on the roads and see how close they can come to other vehicles. 


It doesn't matter how capable the horse is when there is no place to get out of the car's way :frown_color: 

Plus hitting the asphalt is a lot more unforgiving than hitting the dirt. I see a lot of injuries at work (I'm an RN) and seriously see more damage from road injuries than gun shots. 

Bottom line; I'm the one that gets super nervous riding down the road. My horse lives on a very busy road so he is more used to it. He sees everything from 4wheelers to ambulances, with every thing in between.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

On the subject of contact; IMO it is important to train horses to ride with and without varying levels of contact. That way the rider can decide how much contact they want to use in any situation, and the horse will be comfortable with that. 

Generally, since my background is in Dressage, my horses learn to pay the most attention to me when on contact. Their reward is a release of contact for the right action. 


So my horses listen best to me on contact. That would not necessarily be the same with a western trained horse. Which is why English style riders *can make* western trained horses MORE nervous, and Western style riders *can make* English trained horses MORE nervous. 


I bolded the above words because there are no absolutes with horses, so they may not have an issue...or they might...


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

The runners all go in groups too and use a lane of traffic; my guess is they figure a car won't be able to hit them all and someone may live to report the vehicle! 

I am amazed by the pictures of the roads posted by some of the others on here; if I had half that much room I wouldn't be as nervous!


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

I whole heartedly agree that dogs should not be allowed on trails used by horses - ever. I don't care how obedient your dog normally is or what you feel your rights are. Dogs in public places should be on a leash. This is for their safety as well as others. And riding with a dog on a leash in a public place would be dangerous IMO. I like dogs - I have 2, my neighbors have dogs - she has 6 (no kidding) but I don't want to encounter a dog on the trail. I have seen wrecks because a horse got amped up and then the dog that was with them got amped up because of all of the shouting. Rider got dumped horse took off with dog right on its heels. I have had strange dogs jump up on my horse while at a state park.

If you ride with your dog on your own property that is up to you - but public places with equestrian or multi use trails is not the place for a loose dog.

of my soap box.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

AnitaAnne said:


> On the subject of contact; IMO it is important to train horses to ride with and without varying levels of contact. That way the rider can decide how much contact they want to use in any situation, and the horse will be comfortable with that.
> 
> Generally, since my background is in Dressage, my horses learn to pay the most attention to me when on contact. Their reward is a release of contact for the right action.
> 
> ...



Lol, it’s funny, Fergie is an English horse through and through, that’s all she has done, but ‘taking up a contact’ rather than ‘riding in contact’ would make her nervous....you are gathering me up, what is there to spook at! Now she gets it....


I need to come back to this when I get time, someone mentioned show jumping horse racing etc.....as riding dangerously, to me, as in everything else, only dangerous when done by those ill equipped to be doing it! No time to elaborate right now, but a difference somehow between dangerous and risky!


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

Getting on a large animal with a mind of it's own is dangerous period if you want to get right down to it. The levels of danger can vary so it's up to each of us to decide how much of a risk we are willing to take. When I was young I always figured I'd get killed by a riding or other kind of horse accident long before I got old. I'm not ancient yet but am beyond middle aged and I'm still here. I've ridden on roads, I've always done some alone riding where no one knew I was even riding let alone where I was riding at, never worn a helmet, gotten into sticky situations, ridden youngsters and on and on. Not that I'm advocating throwing caution to the wind, I just grew up in a place and time where you did pretty much what you wanted to do and knew but accepted the risk involved.


I think the most aggravated I get though is when riding with large groups of people that are not people I normally ride with and not familiar with the term trail etiquette.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

As I read more of everyone’s responses, I am struck by the differences between us. Many people say they can ride on the rode, and sure, I am capable, but I don’t like it. One person says that dogs are dangerous, but in my world dogs are a necessity for your horses to deal with. It is your responsibility to not get one kicked here. 

Somewhere @gottatrot said jumping over obstacles where you can’t see the other side. Well, ya... I wouldn’t even think of that because it’s not something I would come up against. I say running when there are badger holes everywhere, but other people probably would not come against that.

I can see though, as I read, where everyone is coming from. From @Tazzie and her requirement of contact, where in her world horses are ridden on contact, and obviously they would be a bit up without it. In @bsms’s world horses are ridden loose, and they know something is wrong if someone asks for contact from them. I can see how each instance explained would frighten different horses who live in different cultures.

I wonder then if this post is better apt to show our differences than overall standards.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Golden Horse said:


> Lol, it’s funny, Fergie is an English horse through and through, that’s all she has done, but ‘taking up a contact’ rather than ‘riding in contact’ would make her nervous....you are gathering me up, what is there to spook at! Now she gets it....


When I gather up my horse, he knows I am going to ask him to do something, so he pays more attention to me. He focuses MORE on me, so is less aware of the rest of the environment thus LESS spooky. That gathering up, in essence, is a half-halt. 



Golden Horse said:


> I need to come back to this when I get time, someone mentioned show jumping horse racing etc.....as riding dangerously, to me, as in everything else, only dangerous when done by those ill equipped to be doing it! No time to elaborate right now, but a difference somehow between dangerous and risky!


Agree! I consider jumping as fun, not dangerous. Sure a little riskier than only riding on the flat, but not really dangerous. 

Dangerous jumping IMO is steeple chasing, something I did want to do as a youth!! :smile:


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

@Knave I cannot agree with you more! The wonderful things about this forum as that we all live in different parts of the world and our riding places all differ.

For me - I live in the mid-west - corn fields, bean fields etc surround my rural village. You do not ride in someone's field! Rode riding is how I grew up but traffic has increased to the point where it is dangerous. So I ride in state parks - where most trails are multi use. We share trails with hikers and mountain bikers. My horses have become fairly familiar with people walking on the trails and not as familiar with riders on bikes flying up behind us. So most of our trails are hilly and steep with ravines and rocks with some creek crossings. We do not jump over downed trees because you don't know what is on the other side. We also very rarely get flat enough ground for a good canter or a fast gait. Very very little open or flat riding where I ride.

For others they are lucky enough to have private land to ride on or local fields with bridle paths where well maintained trails offer placed for a good canter - and yet others ride in the desert where horses have learned to avoid cactus and they do not know about ducking under low tree limbs.


What is normal for all of us is not universal - our riding styles are not universal. I have found this post interesting and engaging. Thanks @Tazzie


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Avna said:


> You need to ride with a dog so your horse gets used to dogs!


He's actually ridden with dogs quite a bit. If he sees them, he's fine, but I've still had dogs crashing through brush or popping over berms scare him. And those are good dogs, just doing what dogs do, chase rabbits, etc. 

So it make for a nervous ride for me. I just don't enjoy it when I have to worry about what the dogs are doing. I realize this is mostly because of my current horse. And I don't have dog and don't plan to get one. Back 15 years ago I had a cocker spaniel who rode with me (running loose). The horses were fine with her and I enjoyed her going with me. So realize it can work both ways.

However, loose dogs are a hazard to other people and they are a big pet peeve of mine. I've had loose dogs run up to me in the neighborhood on many occasions. I've taught my horse to turn and face them rather than run from them. Still, one will occasionally catch me off guard. Even a fenced dog can run out of nowhere and scare a horse. I just find them the most annoying animal to encounter riding. Wild animals run FROM you. Dogs run TOWARDS you. That alone is enough to freak out a horse. I would rather encounter a black bear than a loose dog. I've encountered black bears on two occasions and they've done nothing but run. I've had dogs charge my horse, bouncing around and barking, trying to circle around behind us (I assume to nip our heels). That's really scary, for me anyway.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Dogs. Can be a good thing or a bad thing. Many, many loose dogs here and they may or may not be friendly. Usually not, lol. 

I always wanted a dog to ride trails with me, but never had quite the right horse/dog combination. 

The current barn dog seems to be quite jealous of my gelding when I am around, so I have had to start kenneling him while riding. It is a shame because I really wanted to turn him into a trail dog. 

However, it does make ME nervous when dogs come running up to us while mounted. I have tried to train my horse to chase animals while riding, but it is hard to do on a consistent basis without enough animals around. 


I was at a place for a year that had a lot of Canadian geese and my gelding got pretty good at chasing them. 


I have a friend who always brings her dog(s) with her to the trailhead, but only rides with her dog(s) when she is riding alone or with her husband. She keeps them in the trailer when riding with other people. 


I do think it is important for horses to learn about dogs, but don't want them on the trails during competitions. Other than that it is ok, and if my horse gets scared I will either approach the dog, run from the dog, or dismount which ever the situation calls for. 

I try to respect other people's right to enjoy the trails the way they want too. I ride with bells all the time, and I think it scared some horses we went past because the group went way off the trail up the side of the mountain at least 20 feet from us. But the horses didn't jump up there or anything, so maybe the riders just wanted to pass that way? I really don't know because we didn't have any conversation. I said hello and waved on our approach, but they didn't return a greeting...


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

@AnitaAnne bells - another pet peeve of mine. I know I have posted about them before and also posted that according to a DNR officer I spoke to bells are useless for our local wildlife (mostly deer and bird) as they tend to hunker down when scared and not run from the noise. Maybe if I lived in an area with bear bells would be different but here there are many a tail of bells causing wrecks on the trail. And oddly enough it seems that bells are a gaited horse fad more so than stock horses.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

carshon said:


> @AnitaAnne bells - another pet peeve of mine. I know I have posted about them before and also posted that according to a DNR officer I spoke to bells are useless for our local wildlife (mostly deer and bird) as they tend to hunker down when scared and not run from the noise. Maybe if I lived in an area with bear bells would be different but here there are many a tail of bells causing wrecks on the trail. And oddly enough it seems that bells are a gaited horse fad more so than stock horses.


I don't know if the bells work to keep wild critters away, but we rarely see any. 

The bells help my gelding relax. He is a nervy, snorty type and something about the bells jingling in rhythm keeps him calmer. 

One rider I passed said he thought it was a reindeer coming with all the red and the jingles :rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

carshon said:


> @AnitaAnne bells - another pet peeve of mine. I know I have posted about them before and also posted that according to a DNR officer I spoke to bells are useless for our local wildlife (mostly deer and bird) as they tend to hunker down when scared and not run from the noise. Maybe if I lived in an area with bear bells would be different but here there are many a tail of bells causing wrecks on the trail. And oddly enough it seems that bells are a gaited horse fad more so than stock horses.


Forgot to add if someone objected to the bells, some of the ones I have come with a little magnet cover that keeps the bell from jingling. So I could just cover it up while passing. 

I have never heard of bells causing a wreck on a trail...



Companies sell some bells called Rhythm beads to put on horses to hear the different gaits. I thought it was much cheaper to just buy some Christmas bells from Dollar Tree  

Have learnt since that lots of people use them, but I used them in Dressage (not in the ring) to listen to the cadence.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

AnitaAnne said:


> Forgot to add if someone objected to the bells, some of the ones I have come with a little magnet cover that keeps the bell from jingling. So I could just cover it up while passing.
> 
> I have never heard of bells causing a wreck on a trail...
> 
> ...



I ride with bells from the end of August all the way into December because of hunting season. It's not to scare the animals, it's to hopefully keep my horse and I from getting shot. I don't know how far the sound carries, but I figure any heads-up I can give a hunter that I a NOT an elk is a good thing. We ride through a lot of close forest, and not always on a trail, so hunters are a real possibility. I also deck my horse and myself out in "hunter orange." I've actually come to like the color and look out for orange saddle bags and such for my tack collection! I recently bought some hunter orange reins from Weaver Leather that will give the front end of my horses some color come August. 

But I actually do enjoy the bells. I had a friend who hated them, but she doesn't ride with me anymore, so I am riding with bells guilt free. I feel safer and I enjoy their sound so it's a win-win. I actually DO ride gaited horses, but I think that is very much a coincidence, lol!


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Other than the horse-eating variety, what's wrong with wildlife? I love seeing wildlife on the trail. If you walk quietly (for which you have to ride by yourself), wildlife tends to watch you pass by, unsure what to think of you. I've had deer stare at me from quite close - until I exclaimed, "Hi, deer!" 

They can make for some excitement. Once I cantered along the tree line in a field when we roused a whole herd of 5 or 6. A young one jumped out into the field right in front of us and turned into our direction of travel, so we were just behind. My reaction: "Go get her!!" Good times!!


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

mmshiro said:


> Other than the horse-eating variety, what's wrong with wildlife? I love seeing wildlife on the trail. If you walk quietly (for which you have to ride by yourself), wildlife tends to watch you pass by, unsure what to think of you. I've had deer stare at me from quite close - until I exclaimed, "Hi, deer!"
> 
> They can make for some excitement. Once I cantered along the tree line in a field when we roused a whole herd of 5 or 6. A young one jumped out into the field right in front of us and turned into our direction of travel, so we were just behind. My reaction: "Go get her!!" Good times!!



I love seeing animals too! I have ridden both with bells and my MP3 player (with external speaker) and the animals don't see deterred. They are usually curious and will stand and watch me even if I have on bells or music, at least for a few seconds before running. (It sort of depends on if you startle them or not). Sometimes I will call for elk on horseback during the rut. I don't have bells or music on then, but I've found I still see plenty of elk even with bells or music. Elk are one of my very favorite animals! We have deer too, but they are generally more flighty.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

trailhorserider said:


> I ride with bells from the end of August all the way into December because of hunting season. It's not to scare the animals, it's to hopefully keep my horse and I from getting shot. I don't know how far the sound carries, but I figure any heads-up I can give a hunter that I a NOT an elk is a good thing. We ride through a lot of close forest, and not always on a trail, so hunters are a real possibility. I also deck my horse and myself out in "hunter orange." I've actually come to like the color and look out for orange saddle bags and such for my tack collection! I recently bought some hunter orange reins from Weaver Leather that will give the front end of my horses some color come August.
> 
> But I actually do enjoy the bells. I had a friend who hated them, but she doesn't ride with me anymore, so I am riding with bells guilt free. I feel safer and I enjoy their sound so it's a win-win. I actually DO ride gaited horses, but I think that is very much a coincidence, lol!


Hunters are the main reason I ride with bells on the trails, especially in the fall. I don't really know or care if it scares the wild life away, it is the two-legged wildlife that concerns me especially when I was riding out alone. 

I have been shot at by some guys parked up on the road, which it totally illegal but done all the time here. Only luck saved me & my horse that day, luck and screaming my head off! I and my youngest were on the marked horse trails at the time! :evil:


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Had a forest worker explain the difference between black bear scat and grizzly scat. The grizzly scat contained pepper spray and tinker bells

I ride with my dogs. But where I ride, I have never encountered another rider in four years of riding. But yes, even though my dog will eat pellets and drink water out of the same container with my horse, when he comes crashing out of the brush ahead or behind us it can startle Hondo a bit. And sometimes Hondo is looking around left and right saying, "Where is that darned dog?"

One of the things I got Roman for which I may or may not follow through with was to train him as a deer shed dog. But I do enjoy him being out on the trail with us.

If I were riding in a structured park with multiple uses, I don't think I'd want to bring him. That said, if there was a choice, I would not be riding in a park anyhow.


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

Unsafe riding for me is:

-Riding without a helmet. I don't understand people who don't. I'll never understand people who don't. The only good reason I can think of would be on the set of a historical film requiring period costume. 
-Riding without appropriate footwear. While I have done it, and in certain circumstances I would do it again, it is dangerous unless the stirrups have tapaderos or cages, or you just opt to ride without stirrups.
-Not checking your tack for wear, and/or not doublechecking everything before mounting.

From a non-equipment standpoint, I consider it dangerous riding to ignore signs of anxiety from your horse and just get on and "ride through it." There are people who think I'm being overcautious or paranoid at times, and maybe I am, but if I see anything in a horse's behaviour or expression that tells me they have "too many rabbits," to use a Warwick Schiller expression -- meaning their anxiety baseline in a given situation is already elevated and they're more likely to be set off -- I want to do something about that before I get on. Ignoring those rabbits resulted in a pony exploding and throwing herself, and me, on the ground last season, which could have been deadly if things had happened at a slightly different angle, etc. So... take the time. Lunge the horse, or hand-walk, or do groundwork, or do WHATEVER, but don't just hop on and assume you'll just work through it.


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## ChestnutPony4Life (Dec 30, 2017)

Riding without a helmet #1


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

carshon said:


> I whole heartedly agree that dogs should not be allowed on trails used by horses - ever. I don't care how obedient your dog normally is or what you feel your rights are. Dogs in public places should be on a leash. This is for their safety as well as others. And riding with a dog on a leash in a public place would be dangerous IMO. I like dogs - I have 2, my neighbors have dogs - she has 6 (no kidding) but I don't want to encounter a dog on the trail. I have seen wrecks because a horse got amped up and then the dog that was with them got amped up because of all of the shouting. Rider got dumped horse took off with dog right on its heels. I have had strange dogs jump up on my horse while at a state park.
> 
> If you ride with your dog on your own property that is up to you - but public places with equestrian or multi use trails is not the place for a loose dog.
> 
> off my soap box.


Well, I ride virtually every day with my dog on multi use trails in public places, so I guess I am wrong wrong wrong. I'd say we meet a runner or a dog walker a few times a month (and I usually know them -- my town is more like a neighborhood). If we lived somewhere more crowded I probably wouldn't take her. In fact when I did live somewhere more crowded dogs were not allowed anywhere I rode. In California dogs are not allowed in any state or national parks even on leash, off the pavement.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Avna said:


> Well, I ride virtually every day with my dog on multi use trails in public places, so I guess I am wrong wrong wrong. I'd say we meet a runner or a dog walker a few times a month (and I usually know them -- my town is more like a neighborhood). If we lived somewhere more crowded I probably wouldn't take her. In fact when I did live somewhere more crowded dogs were not allowed anywhere I rode. In California dogs are not allowed in any state or national parks even on leash, off the pavement.


it works in your area and im glad you have never had the issues i have had. you are not wrong at all. if it works for you in your area good .

im in the middle of the city and people out here lack common sence. ALOT of people walking their dogs in the washes (our "trails") off leash. against the law but they dont care and most of these dogs go after horses. we used to ride at a place called thunderbird park. lots of hiking trails on the mountains (again in the middle of the city) so everyone and their uncle are out there with their dogs. alot of us ride there and its horse friendly and they are fun trails. but people dont get the dog acting aggressively and just giving the dog ALL the leash to run up to another animal. it falls under them yelling "my dog is friendly!" yes your may be but is mine? (my husky loves other dogs but not on leash and not near "mom") and is my horse? or is your dog HORSE friendly? sadly had a few nearmisses and the owners miffed at why i was so ****ed at them. No i guess its perfectly reasonable for your overly aggressive lab to lunge at my horse and my horse makeing an emergency exit down the side of the not so steep mountain... and its not just a horse issue. dog (another lab of all things) tried to take my fiances arm off on the same trails. owner said "oh he is friendly! he just wants you to pet him!" fiance goes to pet him and hardly gets close to the dog before it lunges and snaps...


this just might fall under city people and mass ignorance. but it has shaped my view of dogs+ horses. alot of barns out here will not let you bring your dogs anymore. too many incidents. one lady i boarded at let her dogs run all over the place. darn thing ran under a horse while it was being lunged, startled the thing and because of bad footing the horse went down. THANKFULLY the 5 year old who was about to get ponied was NOT on the horse at the time. her dogs also killed the barn cats and she thought it was funny. yet she did not think it was funny when our old horse (about 31 at the time) tried to stomp her dogs lights out when it was in the arena...

i have dogs. i have a dog who is NOT ok with livestock. i have had dogs who where ok with livestock and used to fallow me on my colorado adventures. just too many issues and not worth the anxiety or potential issues in the areas im in now. maybe when we move to kentucky but certainly not now.

The only "dogs" im ok with on trail with me are the coyotes. some will plod along side the horse when riding like a well trained dog. they stay out of my way and fallow along because the horse will startel rabbits. they are a brief companion and one that has never cause me strife so i let them be.

so in areas where there are hardly ANY people riding with a dog and a couple people is fine.


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

Knave said:


> As I read more of everyone’s responses, I am struck by the differences between us. Many people say they can ride on the rode, and sure, I am capable, but I don’t like it. One person says that dogs are dangerous, but in my world dogs are a necessity for your horses to deal with. It is your responsibility to not get one kicked here.
> 
> Somewhere @*gottatrot* said jumping over obstacles where you can’t see the other side. Well, ya... I wouldn’t even think of that because it’s not something I would come up against. I say running when there are badger holes everywhere, but other people probably would not come against that.
> 
> ...


This is one of the main reasons I like this forum. The huge variety of perspectives that the members bring in. Seems to me though, that a few perspectives are missing from this thread. We haven't yet heard from the eventers, foxhunters, and cross country jumpers. 


I look at things in a rather general context I suppose. Dangerous to me is someone over horsed. That could be the notorious green on green, or me, with over 50 years of rough and tumble type activities, on a finely tuned dressage horse. 


Another would be someone pushing a horse into something it is not ready for. Having said that, one of my jobs at the barn I rode for in the U.S., was to make sure trail horses were road safe. The only way I know to do that is to ride them on the road. First, I did make them stand at the end of the driveway while traffic rolled past. Very few had a problem with it. The spookiest thing for most was bicycles whirring up almost silently behind them. but I have no control over the cyclists. Only the horse.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

KigerQueen said:


> it works in your area and im glad you have never had the issues i have had. you are not wrong at all. if it works for you in your area good .
> 
> im in the middle of the city and people out here lack common sence. ALOT of people walking their dogs in the washes (our "trails") off leash. against the law but they dont care and most of these dogs go after horses. we used to ride at a place called thunderbird park. lots of hiking trails on the mountains (again in the middle of the city) so everyone and their uncle are out there with their dogs. alot of us ride there and its horse friendly and they are fun trails. but people dont get the dog acting aggressively and just giving the dog ALL the leash to run up to another animal. it falls under them yelling "my dog is friendly!" yes your may be but is mine? (my husky loves other dogs but not on leash and not near "mom") and is my horse? or is your dog HORSE friendly? sadly had a few nearmisses and the owners miffed at why i was so ****ed at them. No i guess its perfectly reasonable for your overly aggressive lab to lunge at my horse and my horse makeing an emergency exit down the side of the not so steep mountain... and its not just a horse issue. dog (another lab of all things) tried to take my fiances arm off on the same trails. owner said "oh he is friendly! he just wants you to pet him!" fiance goes to pet him and hardly gets close to the dog before it lunges and snaps...
> 
> ...


Definitely a city thing. Glad I don't live near a city any more. Very very glad. 

In my younger days when my dogs really were my children they went everywhere with me. They were trained and socialized but that didn't mean they weren't a pain in the neck sometimes, especially to non dog lovers. Now I'm old, a little less insensitive, and my dogs get kenneled away from the house when company comes, unless they are people who know and love my dogs (not 'dogs', but MY dogs). My car used to be filthy with nose smudges and dog hair and dirt. Now my dogs stay safely at home unless we are going somewhere specifically for dogs. My car is a lot cleaner. They still get better care and more attention than 90% of American dogs. The only dog who goes out on rides with me is the one whom I know will not mix it up with another dog, or a porcupine, or run deer or cattle. She does cause my horse to startle occasionally when she pops up out of the brush but Brooke is used to her and it is only a faint jolt not a disappearing act. Hope is a strange little dog but she's a great riding companion. She probably goes five miles to Brooke's one.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Dangerous riding is only predicated upon a few things:

1. A green horse put in an "adult" situation without a seasoned rider and a seasoned horse/rider to keep it calm.

2. An idiot rider who cannot anticipate possible disasters, and who is severely lacking in common sense to recognize not only their limits but the limits of the horse. There are too many people riding horses who are "Legends In Their Own Minds". It is one thing to have the confidence to get on a horse, but quite another when there is too much confidence coupled with lack of ability and common sense.

3. Far as dogs on horse trails? That's another bit of good common sense as to whether or not the dog should go. My dogs never went with me, as a lot of my riding included road riding and rattlesnakes. 

The few dogs I have seen accompanying their riders, had been taught trail manners, stayed close to their human & horse and didn't nip at the heels of other horses --- I'm not at all opposed to a well behaved dog like that.

4. Far as helmets --- let me just say that any injury I have EVER had was not positioned on my head where those small helmets are perched. I don't walk with a cane due to a head injury. 

That said, my one and only head injury happened when I was standing BESIDE a horse, in a parking lot. The concussion was just below where the helmet edge would have been, had I had one on. The doctor said he had seen many CT's of concussions like mine ---- they were all of construction workers who fell off roofs--------


Helmets need to remain a freedom of choice issue for anyone OVER 18.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

walkinthewalk said:


> Helmets need to remain a freedom of choice issue for anyone OVER 18.


Absolutely, but a helmet is designed to protect an area that is a whole lot more susceptible to severe damage than any other part of your body, given the same forces.

If someone punches you and you fall on your butt, you'll walk it off. If someone punches you and you fall on your head, you may die! (see: One-punch homicides). The helmet is to keep you from dying from an impact that you'll laugh off if received to any other part of the body. A force that'll break a limb, on the other hand, will more likely than not do serious damage to your head with or without helmet.


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

mmshiro said:


> Absolutely, but a helmet is designed to protect an area that is a whole lot more susceptible to severe damage than any other part of your body, given the same forces.
> 
> If someone punches you and you fall on your butt, you'll walk it off. If someone punches you and you fall on your head, you may die! (see: One-punch homicides). The helmet is to keep you from dying from an impact that you'll laugh off if received to any other part of the body. A force that'll break a limb, on the other hand, will more likely than not do serious damage to your head with or without helmet.


Yep. Just because a helmet can't protect your entire body, or doesn't protect your head in every type of head injury, doesn't mean they're pointless. And injuring the rest of the body doesn't permanently alter one's mental capacity, personality, memory, etc. Most other injuries heal, but traumatic brain injuries rarely do, at least not to a pre-injury state.

I've never fallen off the horse I'm currently riding, which means I technically could have been riding this entire time without a helmet. Doesn't mean I have any desire to get on any horse without one, though.

I know people who have fallen and split their helmets wide open. They would be dead, or vegetables, if they hadn't been wearing it. Such a fall might never happen to me, and that would be ideal, but you can bet I'm protecting myself in case. I actually LIKE putting my helmet on. Similar to squeezing into my half chaps, it's a major part of my getting-ready-to-rock routine before I get on!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Helmets come in to play in a fall, and then only in some falls. While an easy way to reduce the chance of injury in a fall, the overall danger depends on the probability of falling. Particularly falling with a head-first impact.

Why might someone NOT wear a helmet? Well, although I wear a helmet most of the time, I've never met a rider who had ever significantly injured their head. I just got some free tack from a guy who rode for 50 years, had as many as 16 horses at a time...and no head injuries. Ever. The rancher I know has now gone 4 generations of riders without any ever having a significant head injury.

Individual riding circumstances also play a part. I think most can understand why sheepherders don't wear helmets. Where I live, the lack of water for the horses limits how long I ride. For 60-90 minutes, I wear a helmet. If I often rode 3+ hours, I would not. I reviewed a bunch of injury statistics yesterday. Riding horses is not as dangerous as is often described. At least in the USA, overall injury rates are surprisingly low.

"_my one and only head injury happened when I was standing BESIDE a horse, in a parking lot_" - @*walkinthewalk* 

"_Of 284 patients, 145 (51%) subjects were male with an average age of 37.2 years (S.D. 17.2). Most injuries occurred due to falling off while riding (54%) or kick (22%), resulting in extremity fracture (33%) and head injury (27%). Mounted equestrians more commonly incurred injury to the chest and lower extremity while unmounted equestrians incurred injury to the face and abdomen. *Head trauma frequency was equal between mounted and unmounted equestrians. There were 3 deaths, 2 of which were due to severe head injury from a kick.* Helmet use was confirmed in only 12 cases (6%)._"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4125461/

"_During 1992-1994, a total of 9409 TBIs occurred in Oklahoma, of which 109 (1.2%), including three deaths, were associated with horseback riding; *23 other TBIs were attributable to horses but were not riding-associated.*_" [Note: 17% of total horse-related TBIs were not riding related.]

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00040635.htm

I'm NOT telling anyone to not wear a helmet. But a reasonable person might conclude they do not NEED to wear one. Or conversely, they might conclude they need to wear one ANY time they are near a horse. My BIL won't get near a horse, but rides motorcycles in city traffic all the time. You couldn't pay me to do what he does, nor pay him to do what I do. Differing values about what is fun and different assessments of risk lead to different conclusions.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

bsms said:


> Helmets come in to play in a fall, and then only in some falls. While an easy way to reduce the chance of injury in a fall, the overall danger depends on the probability of falling. Particularly falling with a head-first impact.


It's incorrect to assume that a helmet only comes into play when lawn-darting head first into the ground. I managed to split my helmet even though the primary area of first impact was my entire torso. Nonetheless, the velocity at impact was too high to keep my head off the (grassy) ground.

What the helmet did, in this case, was distribute the collision forces over a larger area (lowering the risk of a skull fracture) and mitigating the deceleration my head experienced as it came to, uhm, "rest," mitigating the concussion I received to a degree that I could get back on the horse.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I've spent a lot of my adult life regretting not listening to all the people who told me to always wear a helmet.
My fractured skull wasn't a result of me landing on my head as I apparently landed on my side but the horse kicked me on the head as he jumped over me when I was lying on the floor.
He was also just walking quietly along and tripped over something hidden in tall scrubby grass - it happened and was all over in seconds.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

mmshiro said:


> It's incorrect to assume that a helmet only comes into play when lawn-darting head first into the ground...


True, but that is not what I wrote. "_...the overall danger depends on the probability of falling. Particularly falling with a head-first impact._" Forward rotating falls are particularly dangerous. If the initial impact is on the back, the force of the head hitting the ground will usually be less compared to the head impacting first. The body stiffens without conscious thought, which may be bad news for the back but is good news for the head. 

The studies I've seen indicate 10-30% of incidents where a helmet would help come when NOT RIDING. A horse slamming into someone can send them flying and we're more likely to have machinery, rocks, wood beams and the like close by when leading a horse (or treating one) than when riding one. Kicks are another, with one article suggesting vets should take helmets with them.

But how much a helmet helps - and it does - will depend on a lot of things. Not everyone is at equal risk of head injury, although everyone is at SOME risk. The former safety officer in me believes the goal of a safety program isn't eliminating all risk, but reducing it to an acceptable level - and "acceptable" differs from one person to the next.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

i would prefer to use a helmet but they always interfere with my glasses. the big issue with that is my vision is so bad than when my glasses get wonkey i get vertigo and a massive headache. i have had more near falls with a helmet than without one. considering i ride in a sand arena i will take that risk. though i dont land on my head when i fall. i tend to land on my shoulders and neck. i have amazingly not broken. maybe i should invest in a neck brace lol. on a serious note my vision issues might be linked to a health issue (since i appear to jump 4 prescriptions every 2-3 months this year alone). once i can fix that and maybe get eye surgery so i can ditch the glasses i will helmet. i want to show english and its kinda a requirement.

BUT ANY AND ALL children WILL have helmets on. period. Its not only a barn rule its mine. im and adult and i can make that choice even if its foolish. Kids get no say. My kid when he/she (we dont know yet lol) is old enough will have a helmet on every ride. my fiance refuses to use a helmet but even he agrees. 


what i think riding dangerously is
*Running your horse down busy trails
*running your horse home all the time
*Running your horse or takeing off when with a group of rider and not asking
*running your horse by a busy road
*going down trails or concrete embankments that are too steep and risk injury to the horse
*running a horse on pavement (again injury to the horse)
*crossing fast moveing water that you have no idea how deep it is
*running up on other riders 
*riding a horse you cannot control on trails
*riding an ill behaved stud around mares
*riding with others in an arena on a horse you cant control
*Riding with loose dogs in populated areas
*riding with old tack (seen too many reins snap)
*kids riding on trails in ill fitting saddles
*Kids riding horses that are too much go on trails

thats all i can think of off the top of my head.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

My helmet gives me a headache, so I don't usually wear it. If I fall off and get killed, then I guess I made a mistake.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Celeste said:


> My helmet gives me a headache, so I don't usually wear it. If I fall off and get killed, then I guess I made a mistake.


You already made a mistake. Your mistake is not getting a helmet that fits you.

If people just fell off and got killed, and that was okay by them, that would be one thing. But head injuries often don't lead immediately to death, but to irreversible mental and physical impairment. Which means you just became someone else's problem, perhaps lifetime problem. That's a mistake I myself would work to avoid if I could.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

bsms said:


> The former safety officer in me believes the goal of a safety program isn't eliminating all risk, but reducing it to an acceptable level - and "acceptable" differs from one person to the next.


It's actually three factors:

- the cost of the risky event occuring
- the probability of the risky event occuring
- the cost of mitigating the risk

Let c1 be the cost of the risky event occurring, and p1 its probability. Then the actuarial cost of the risk before risk management would be c1*p1.

Let c2 be the cost of mitigating the risk, be it a helmet or an insurance policy. To come out ahead, you want c2<c1*p1.

For example, if there is a risk of debilitating brain injury that will cut your lifetime earnings potential by, say, $1 Million, and the medical cost amount to, say $100k. Multiply that by the probability of the risky event occurring, say 0.1%. Your break-even point for buying a helmet would then be $1.1 Million * 0.001 = $1100.

You can run this with actual numbers, I merely pulled these out of a head to illustrate the formula.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I went for a hike yesterday afternoon wearing a ball cap and putting sunscreen on instead of wearing my cotton Tilly hat with a wide rim. Why? Because even a cotton Tilly can get mighty hot under the Arizona sun! I normally wear a helmet when I ride. I also have gone temporarily blind from sweat dropping on my glasses, coating them. For me, wearing the helmet is worth sometimes stopping and cleaning the sweat off my glasses. Three years of riding have turned Bandit into a mostly solid citizen. 10 year old Bandit is not at 20 year old Cowboy's level of sensibility, but he's heading that way. I'll probably go on wearing a helmet anyways. 

It is like taking a cell phone when I drive. I spent most of my life driving all the heck over, including 30+ miles from the nearest help. No cell phones! But now I feel kind of naked without one. If I leave without one, I'd feel like I was tempting the Lord to give me a flat tire on THAT day, just to teach me humility! I now have a perception that driving without a cell phone is "risky", even though I spent decades doing it without any harm!

I asked the rancher whose family has now gone 4 generations without significant head injury about helmets. "_Do you feel better prepared for riding when you wear one?_", he asked. "_Yes_", I replied. "_So wear one!_", he said. But I won't hold my breath waiting for him to wear one...:rofl:

PS: If cellphones sold for $5,000, I'd still drive everywhere without one! But my $15 flip phone costs me $100/year for airtime, so there is little downside. I tend to feel the same about helmets, @*mmshiro* !


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

bsms said:


> I asked the rancher whose family has now gone 4 generations without significant head injury about helmets. "_Do you feel better prepared for riding when you wear one?_", he asked. "_Yes_", I replied. "_So wear one!_", he said. But I won't hold my breath waiting for him to wear one...:rofl:


Everyone has the right to add intangible costs to c2, like discomfort, effort to get one, pride in not wearing one... c2 is the big fudge factor on the basis of which people decide. It's just that most people aren't aware of the break-even point, so they tend to decide irrationally.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Avna said:


> You already made a mistake. Your mistake is not getting a helmet that fits you.
> 
> If people just fell off and got killed, and that was okay by them, that would be one thing. But head injuries often don't lead immediately to death, but to irreversible mental and physical impairment. Which means you just became someone else's problem, perhaps lifetime problem. That's a mistake I myself would work to avoid if I could.



Totally agree, my big accident brought that home to me....getting killed is less scary then being permanently Brain damaged, at least for me,

I was run under a tree as a kid, seeing the damage my helmet sustained was a sobering experience.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

mmshiro said:


> It's actually three factors:
> 
> - the cost of the risky event occuring
> - the probability of the risky event occuring
> ...


Well, this is far too rational for 99.9% of human beings. As I'm sure you already know!

Here are some real-world factors that affect decision-making:

how your risk-reducing endeavors appear to others (image). All those people who don't wear helmets purely because it would ruin their look. 
how troublesome or irksome it is to add risk-reducing behavior to your habits. 
degree of impulsivity/desire for adrenaline rush. 
vividness of your, we'll call it, negative imagination. Some people can't imagine themselves having a major accident, others can't stop. 

edit: I see you already commented on all this, above. Missed reading that.


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

mmshiro said:


> It's actually three factors:
> 
> - the cost of the risky event occuring
> - the probability of the risky event occuring
> ...


I'm one of those 99.9% of folks Avna was referring to. I MIGHT be able to follow along if I knew what the asterix stood for. And I THINK what you're saying is, in your theoretical example, that a helmet would have to cost $1,100 to be not worth the expenditure compared to the risk. 


Am I close?


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Cordillera Cowboy said:


> I'm one of those 99.9% of folks Avna was referring to. I MIGHT be able to follow along if I knew what the asterix stood for. And I THINK what you're saying is, in your theoretical example, that a helmet would have to cost $1,100 to be not worth the expenditure compared to the risk.
> 
> 
> Am I close?


* is multiplication, like the button on your calculator...and as for your second statement - it is correct, for THOSE numbers.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The real hard truth in way too many cases (re. not wearing helmets) has nothing at all to do with cost or comfort and all to do with looking 'cool', looking like you're tough and fearless, some weird belief that wearing a helmet makes you appear to be nervous....the list goes on but all in much the same line of thinking.


One of the most dangerous aspects of riding and handling horses is the belief that because something has never happened to you or to people you know in X number of years then it will never happen to you.
Way too often its that 'wake up call' that makes people change their minds but for some that call comes too late.
There are also the people that are lucky to never come into contact with a truly difficult horse, they think that because they've ridden or even broken and trained several horses with no problems that they're experienced and invincible. They hand out words of wisdom to similarly gullible people without thinking that the horse they're having trouble with might actually be a real problem or they themselves eventually take on more than they can handle.
I made a wonderful job of breaking and training a lovely 14.2 pony when I was 14 but it wasn't because I was an amazing horse person, it was because I had experienced people around me and she was an amazing pony, hand picked especially for me. I was lucky that I had people to keep me grounded though at times I still overestimated my abilities and learnt the hard way.


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

mmshiro said:


> * is multiplication, like the button on your calculator...and as for your second statement - it is correct, for THOSE numbers.


Thanks. My calculator has an X for multiplication, the same as I learned in elementary school. But, you're talking to the guy who had to take 9th grade math 4 times before passing it in order to graduate high school. 


Now, back to riding dangerously!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I think the biggest difference between those who wear helmets and those who do not is perceived risk. The large majority of folks where I live don't worry because they know plenty of people who have ridden their entire life without any head injuries.

Before 1980, just about everybody rode horses without helmets. Back then, riding wasn't looked at as something terribly dangerous. Of course, back then we rode bicycles without helmets too! I took about a dozen lessons in the mid-70s. All my family would pay for. Took a quarter of lessons in college in the late 70s. Had a few months of jumping lessons in 1985. No helmets, no worries.

One can always say, "But anyone CAN be hurt!" - which is true. That would support not riding at all, or riding in body protectors too. Or a full-face helmet. I think I had very good reason to wear a helmet with Mia, and with Bandit when I first got him. Now I wear a helmet out of habit. If I had started riding with the 2018 version of Bandit, I doubt I would have ever bought one. Not because I worry about my image, but because I honestly don't think my risk is very great. I'm convinced I'm more likely to die while driving than while riding Bandit without a helmet. And I don't wear helmets when I drive.

OTOH, I see little downside to wearing a helmet - for the riding I do. Others ride differently and may come to a different conclusion. After 10 years of riding, I'm capable of making my own decisions. New riders, IMHO, ought to wear helmets until they can assess their own risk and take their own chances.


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

bsms said:


> Before 1980, just about everybody rode horses without helmets. Back then, riding wasn't looked at as something terribly dangerous. Of course, back then we rode bicycles without helmets too! I took about a dozen lessons in the mid-70s. All my family would pay for. Took a quarter of lessons in college in the late 70s. Had a few months of jumping lessons in 1985. No helmets, no worries.
> 
> One can always say, "But anyone CAN be hurt!" - which is true. That would support not riding at all, or riding in body protectors too. Or a full-face helmet. I think I had very good reason to wear a helmet with Mia, and with Bandit when I first got him. Now I wear a helmet out of habit. If I had started riding with the 2018 version of Bandit, I doubt I would have ever bought one. Not because I worry about my image, but because I honestly don't think my risk is very great. I'm convinced I'm more likely to die while driving than while riding Bandit without a helmet. And I don't wear helmets when I drive..


Before 1980 riding helmets were pretty much a joke. Even in the early 90s when I was riding they barely offered any protection. But they offered *some*, so I still wore one every time. The helmets now seem light years ahead of the old ones as far as comfort and protection go. The people who claim that a helmet will "throw them off balance" probably haven't tried one on in 30+ years, or else assume they must weigh as much as a full face motorcycle helmet.

As far as driving goes... No, people don't generally wear helmets driving, but when driving one is surrounded by a protective steel cage full of safety features specifically designed to protect them in the event of an accident. Seat belts, air bags, crumple zones, reinforced roofs in the event the vehicle rolls, etc. It's like riding inside a giant whole-body helmet.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

jaydee said:


> ...One of the most dangerous aspects of riding and handling horses is the belief that because something has never happened to you or to people you know in X number of years then it will never happen to you...


jaydee, that is how EVERYONE assesses risks. I drove a Miata for years. Not a Volvo. Of course, anyone driving a car can be hit by someone else, and a Volvo offers more protection than a Miata. But the Miata was a blast to drive and I figured the risk minimal. So I accepted it.

Apart from looking at people around us, we have statistics. Here are some from a pro-helmet site, which seems to have quoted numbers from a helmet maker - with my math added:



> 7 million people ride horses.
> 
> 78,279 people visited hospital ERs in 2007 due to horse riding injuries. 15% of those injuries were head injuries , 11,759.
> 
> ...


And here is a statistic for you: A 10 year study (1979-1989) in North Carolina found 30 deaths from horse accidents. 25 of the 30 were riding, so 17% came while on the ground. 18 of the 30 were tested for blood alcohol content, and 33% had been drinking. Of those who died in a fall and were tested, 39% had been drinking.

Another: "...In a study done by Sorli (2000) to determine the demographics of hospital admissions and mortality associated with equestrian activities in the 33,000 riders in British Columbia, he found that the mean number of yearly admissions was 390, with head injury the most common cause of hospital admission (20%). [Note: thus the injuries that might have been helped by a helmet work out to 78 out of 33,000. or 0.24%]..."

*The problem is that reading studies on the risks of riding is like reading studies on the risks of having eggs and coffee for breakfast.* The results vary wildly. I can find studies saying riding is incredibly dangerous and others indicating it is pretty safe. So most people go on doing what makes sense to them based on what they see happening around them.

























​PS: I had an egg burrito and coffee for breakfast yesterday. Just a born risk-taker, I guess! But when Bandit's back heals from his latest bite mark, I'll put on a helmet before riding...​


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

bsms said:


> jaydee, that is how EVERYONE assesses risks.


Not everyone. For example me. I assess risk the way I do most things -- I look at what other people are doing. I ask questions. I read extensively, paying close attention to the quality of the author. Then I make up my mind. It often doesn't end up resembling the way 'other people' do things. 

I'm no scientist but I married a physicist, so you bet I know that useful data has to be based on a statistically significant sample. "What some people I talked to once always did" doesn't qualify. 

Heck, if I just did what other people were doing when I (re)started, I'd be a Buck Brannaman student with a copycat vaquero hat and his recommended saddle and all the Brannaman Approved Tack. I'd wear western chaps all the time even just riding around an arena. I would never tie my horse to anything, and I would scorn biothane. I would mock dressage, and I would feed nothing but alfalfa cubes. I would only ride on trails when an approved trail guide was available. And so on. 

I gather all the evidence and then I choose based on carefully considered criteria. Then I keep updating my evaluations of my choices. Call me crazy but it works for me.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I've had three big falls, ones where I wondered while laying on the ground how the heck I got here and does everything still work.

First two were without a helmet. Last one was with a helmet and I "rang my bell" pretty good. Glad I had it.

I've been unconscious wearing a full face motorcycle helmet three times.

Hondo needs me to stay well.

YMMV


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Watching the experiences of others and thinking about our own is essentially all one can do on the dangers of riding horses. I read a lot and have spent many hours trying to find as much as I can from studies to quantify the risks. But...I've found studies saying riding is incredibly dangerous, and others suggesting it is pretty safe.

Much of my wife's and DIL's riding is on Cowboy. Cowboy is 20 years old, 13 hands, BLM mustang. In the years we've ridden him on trails, he has darted forward twice - about 30-40 yards, then stopped. That is the closest thing to a spook I've ever seen from him. When I was riding him and we were shot at, he was SCARED - so he stood stock still and waited for me to decide what to do. No one has ever seen him stumble. Incredibly sure-footed! In an arena, he'll try to throw you. HATES arena riding. Hang over from his lesson horse days. But in the desert, he's a 13 hand Cadillac.

So...how does trail riding Cowboy in the desert compare to the risks of almost ANY sport horse? Or sport riding? How could one quantify the differing risks between Cowboy and Mia, as Mia was 8 years ago? And now that Mia has experienced life in the open, ranging freely with a hundred other horses, her new owner considers her to be so sane that he takes her out for gallops bareback with a bosal. And yes, helmetless!

There are no studies that quantify the risks of riding Cowboy versus 2010 Mia versus 2018 Mia versus 2015 Bandit versus 2018 Bandit, or riding in the desert versus thru a housing area, or trail riding even versus sports riding.

For many, the analysis is simple:

_Helmets reduce the risk of head injury in a fall by 50-80%._
_+_
_There is always at least SOME risk of a fall._
_+_
_Don't mind wearing helmets._
_=_
_Wear a helmet EVERY time._​ 
But if your family had gone 4 generations without head injuries, and you had ridden 50+ years without a head injury, and your hired help had ridden 30+ years without a head injury, AND you were heading out for a 12 hour ride...would you rush out to buy one?

I plan to go on wearing helmets for my 60-90 minute rides. Just not much down side to my thinking! My rancher friend estimated he had ridden 50-60,000 miles in his life, including a lot of green horses. Can't blame him if he isn't too interested in my statistics or thoughts! But...he also says anyone who feels like wearing a helmet OUGHT to wear a helmet - nothing wrong with it.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

bsms said:


> I think the biggest difference between those who wear helmets and those who do not is perceived risk. The large majority of folks where I live don't worry because they know plenty of people who have ridden their entire life without any head injuries.
> 
> Before 1980, just about everybody rode horses without helmets. Back then, riding wasn't looked at as something terribly dangerous. Of course, back then we rode bicycles without helmets too! I took about a dozen lessons in the mid-70s. All my family would pay for. Took a quarter of lessons in college in the late 70s. Had a few months of jumping lessons in 1985. No helmets, no worries.
> 
> ...



I agree with this, that it is all about how you perceive your risk. For instance, when I started riding, I was a teenager and my Dad wanted me to wear a helmet. Knowing no better, he bought me a bicycle helmet. I HATED riding in a bicycle helmet and eventually talked myself out of having to wear it. I rode without a helmet for about 12 years. Never a head injury or serious fall. 

THEN, I bought a pregnant mare and had my first-ever foal. By the time he was several months of age and I was ponying him out with his mother and I went out and bought a helmet and have been wearing one ever since. Why? It quickly became apparent to me that things could go south quickly when ponying a squirming baby horse. I wasn't even riding him but I knew I had an increased risk of a wreck just from trying to manage his behavior. 



Then I got him trained in his two year old year and was certainly going to wear a helmet when he came back from the trainer. After all, here I am on a spooky 2 yr old with two months of "official" training. And I've been wearing a helmet ever since. I still haven't had a fall bad enough to crack my helmet, but I have had a few falls and it just gives me piece of mind that at least if I hit the ground it will be the styrofoam bouncing off the hard packed dirt road instead of my head (directly anyway).

The biggest impediment to me wearing a helmet was always the heat (I grew up in Phoenix). Now that I have found a helmet with a lot of vents (Tipperary Sportage) and have a Da Brim for shade, I simply have no reason NOT to wear a helmet. It gives me better shade than a cowboy hat, has better ventilation than a cowboy hat and can help protect my skull in an accident. What's not to love?


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## Dixiesmom (May 26, 2013)

I look at it this way. There are a lot of living things animal and human who depend on me. My husband wouldn't keep any of my pets if I died or was incapacitated, and would he be careful about placing them? Likely not. I have Grandchildren. I have an 85 year old mother who lives well alone, but does need help with some of her household work, so I go to her place as often as I can to do the big jobs. And there are a lot of friends and family I love. So it isn't just about me. There are a lot of folks I want to continue to see, and if a helmet gives me even a tiny better chance of doing so - well those folks and my pets are WELL WORTH IT!! I never wore a helmet in my first years with horses, then 15 years without a horse, and now that I have a horse I have a helmet too.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

For those that don't wear a helmet because of the heat build up, check this out.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Handmade-S...an-Straw-Hat-BUY-3-GET-1-3-FREE-/263703867136

Sort of pricey, but check out. Price is right. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Solar-Powe...ered-Cooler-Fan-For-Outdoor-1PC-/113111249608


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

It's good to hear about all the logic and thought people put into wearing a helmet. I wish I could say that is how I decided to wear one. I never wore a helmet for the first fifteen years I rode horses. 

The first horse I trained on my own was a spooky, highly reactive horse and she taught me all about falling off horses. I'd fallen off before then, a few times, but now I learned many things. If you fell off yesterday, that doesn't mean you can't fall off today. No one holds up a sign that says "prepare yourself, you are about to hit the ground." I always thought I had some control over how I fell or landed, but I learned about losing control, how your body parts can hit the ground in any random order, that rocks and stumps can appear suddenly underneath you. I hit my head three times, hard, including at least one brief loss of consciousness. 

Finally I realized it might be smart to wear a helmet! Great logic. But this was something I had to figure out on my own since none of the horse people I knew wore a helmet. 

Since then I've learned even more. I've learned that horses can drop out from under you, even at a walk or trot in an arena. A nice patch of ground can hide vines that grab your horse's legs and twist them up, things like big branches can appear suddenly ahead of you on a trail and thwack you in the head. 

I've been there and seen a good friend fall onto her head, crack her helmet and lose consciousness for several minutes, and the miracle that she was back to normal in a few hours. 
I've read about Courtney King-Dye's accident on a trained horse in an arena, and how it has affected her life.
Courtney King-Dye: How I came back | The Horse Magazine
I've read about Dave Rabe, the extremely experienced endurance rider who never wore a helmet and had the most amazing balance - he could pick up things off the ground from on his horse. And how his major head injury affected his life.
He is obviously a rider who values comfort and personal style, and now he wears a helmet.
https://get.google.com/albumarchive/112590388649341553131/album/AF1QipPsPT1U3xT6OsdbXdXrnxhbebN5aMMVFaQyHiSq?source=pwa

I think if I'd known all these things before hitting my head a few times, I would have decided to wear a helmet. But some of us have to learn the hard way.
Sometimes I feel like I could help people who can't decide to wear a helmet. I could put them on my horse, set a deer loose in the bushes to run across the path, and repeat the lesson a couple of times. They'd probably decide right away that helmets were not so uncomfortable after all.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

When the US Air Force realized jets cost more than prop planes, and that it could not continue to afford a sky-high accident rate, it got serious about analyzing WHY accidents occurred. Fighter pilots told them accidents were part of the cost of doing business. But what accident investigations found, time and again, was that the god-like beings who called themselves fighter pilots made "pilot errors" and crashed planes that didn't need to crash. For the record, my Dad was a fighter pilot. I was a WSO who spent 2 1/2 decades working with fighter pilots daily. I took enough flak to give some back!

This was from Naval Aviation, but the trend was similar in the US Air Force:








​ 
A Human Error Approach to Aviation Accident Analysis​ _
"In commercial aviation operations, it is estimated about 70% of fatal accidents are related to human error with pilot fatigue a major contributor. Initiatives such as crew resource management, safety management systems and the automated cockpit have played a part in increasing safety levels but the latter can also pose challenges if training is inadequate._"

Global Aviation Safety Study: A review of 60 years of improvement in aviation safety

If someone wrote a book on riding safety, it might be titled, "It Just Blew!" There are many accidents which are NOT aircrew error. There are many horse accidents that are not rider error. But the "20 Falls Make a Rider" approach to accidents is appalling! One cannot learn from mistakes if one never admits to making any!

Technology: Not all saddles are created equal. A determined rider, using an Australian saddle with a horn, can stay on some amazing spooks. I did, on Mia and in the months immediately following my back injury, when climbing on a horse was excruciating AND I was a brand new rider learning by experimenting. I still think that saddle kept me alive long enough to figure out things that helped me stay on when my horse hit the fan.








In western saddles, I tried using a ranch saddle - a slick-seat, slick fork saddle - with a spooky horse. Ranch saddles have their place, but not mixed with lots of violent spooks. Adding sheepskin helped enormously:








More recently, I switched to an Abetta. The Cordura nylon is far grippier than smooth leather and makes it much easier to stay stable in the saddle (Bandit doing the Looky-Loo):








​ Safety tip: Do not mount a horse doing the Looky-Loo! Don't ask how I know.

But just as pilot error is a huge part of aviation accidents, rider error is a huge part of riding accidents. Not all riding approaches are equal for staying on. And while staying on is often poo-poo'd as minimal riding, it is surprising how many trained riders have problems with staying on! I've written before about defensive riding. Larry Trocha was asked once why he didn't teach a classical seat. He replied he taught cutting and reining, and he wanted his students to stay on the horse! Many will say using the "home" position in stirrups is bad. Jim Wofford explains it differently:

"_Remember, Caprilli was interested in getting men and horses safely across country, *which meant security was a prime concern. The lower-leg position that developed due to his influence was a very strong and secure position, but it was fixed rather than supple*. Caprilli did not view this as a defect because of his attitude toward what he referred to as “school” or dressage, as opposed to his own system of “natural” equitation. At one point in his Notes, he states that the rider’s “calves and heels should never touch the horse except by the rider’s deliberate desire.” The contrast between Caprilli’s system and present-day usage is stark because such a position is not suitable for more sophisticated communication between the rider and his horse._"

Jim Wofford explains how the classic lower-leg position and the way we ride over fences have evolved from something quite different

There are others, but I'll make this point: I haven't taken a huge number of lessons, but I've taken a variety of them, and _none of them taught anything helpful for riding out a sudden spook!_ From the viewpoint of riding safely, that is a huge fault for instructors! As VS Littauer put it in Common Sense Horsemanship:

"_The most inefficient, expensive and the most common way of trying to learn riding is to take lessons twice weekly and never go near a horse between times. Then, hour after hour, you hear the instructor repeating like a gramophone, "heels down, straight back, relax/' and so forth. *This may be a good way of earning a living for the instructor, and for the pupil to have a good time; but it is neither teaching nor learning.*_"

As you might guess, I'm no fan of saying, "_Wear a helmet every time! Be safe!_" While a helmet can be helpful, I find it relied on. If you tell someone to wear a helmet, you've done your part. Too many treat it as doing "all you can do" because "riding is dangerous" and "horses are unpredictable". Speaking as someone who learned riding by riding spooky horses, I find it is entirely possible to train a horse to be much less spooky, and to help a rider stay on - by equipment and riding technique - when a spook occurs.

*I'm NOT pointing fingers at ANYONE on this thread. This thread is obviously filled with riders who DO take safety seriously! That is wonderful! So is the discussion about what helps or doesn't help. *But overall, horse community wide, I'd rate the efforts at safety an "*F*". I see FAR too many excuses for accidents, and far too little analysis.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

In my mind, riding a horse that experiences violent spooks on a regular basis is riding equipment outside its design parameters, like riding a sport bike on a dirt trail. I average about one to two spooks on a normal ride, but they are the "OMG - what was that?" kind, not the "OMG, we're all gonna die!" ones. I can recall three actual bolts on three different horses over the span of as many years, during none of which I came off, despite my flimsy close-contact saddle. 

A horse that panics regularly to the point of endangering its rider needs a bunch more training to engage the "thinking side" of its brain, i.m.o. Here are my causes for crashing since I started trail riding on my own on less-than-bombproof horses:

- loose girth/no withers/recognized sliding saddle too late: 3
- horse rearing and falling after getting caught in a wooden vine: 1
- horse sliding on icy patch in canter: 1
- horse jumping log too close next to a fence post, getting my knee caught: 1
- horse stopping unexpectedly and lowering head, going over the neck at standstill: 1
- horse turning (or not turning) unexpectedly, at canter: 2
- horse spooking at sparrow, at the walk, jumping sideways while rider was enjoying the sunset: 1

The fourth one is the one that split my helmet, when I came off at a full gallop, having failed to right myself by the time she got to max. speed. None of the others even caused any pain more severe than accidentally rolling off the bed. That severe crash occurred doing something I had done dozens of times before, and dozens of times after, without so much as a "close call". It was the "pebble in the turn" motorcycle equivalent - it's the one time you wear your equipment for, so you are back in the game after days rather than weeks, months, or never.

Mind you, many of the _causes_ of crashes above have since occurred repeatedly, without causing another crash. That's a function of my becoming a stronger rider with legs that keep me in the saddle, confidence to handle what's occurring without counterproductive survival instincts, and a core that can hold up the head of a stumbling horse at the canter while in two-point without losing my own balance. 

Without that helmet and its mitigating effects on my impact with the dirt, I may have never gotten to that point.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

bsms said:


> When the US Air Force realized jets cost more than prop planes, and that it could not continue to afford a sky-high accident rate, it got serious about analyzing WHY accidents occurred. Fighter pilots told them accidents were part of the cost of doing business. But what accident investigations found, time and again, was that the god-like beings who called themselves fighter pilots made "pilot errors" and crashed planes that didn't need to crash. For the record, my Dad was a fighter pilot. I was a WSO who spent 2 1/2 decades working with fighter pilots daily. I took enough flak to give some back!
> 
> This was from Naval Aviation, but the trend was similar in the US Air Force:
> 
> ...



Love your post and had to chuckle about the ranch saddle. That is a LOVELY ranch saddle by the way. The very first A-fork ranch saddle I got was this brown one (attempting an attachment here). 



THEN, after I got my spooky colt back from training, I bought this Corriente. Note the improvements to help me stay on: rough out and bucking rolls!  Sheepskin too but that is more to shrink the seat.......I found I really prefer riding in a 16" because there is less room to slop around and this one is a 17."



I use sheepskin in my slick saddles too for extra grip too.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

mmshiro said:


> In my mind, riding a horse that experiences violent spooks on a regular basis is riding equipment outside its design parameters, like riding a sport bike on a dirt trail. I average about one to two spooks on a normal ride, but they are the "OMG - what was that?" kind, not the "OMG, we're all gonna die!" ones. I can recall three actual bolts on three different horses over the span of as many years, during none of which I came off, despite my flimsy close-contact saddle.



Speaking only for myself, my guy was young and spooky and he has gotten so much better over the years. He's 8 years old now and hardly spooks. But when he was only 2-3 years old, he spooked at anything that jumped out.....dogs, rabbits, birds, etc. I think some horses are just naturally more spooky than others. And he was my first foal so I wasn't the best trainer. And for actually saddle training, he was at the trainers only 2 months. So he was basically a very green horse that I was taking out on trails. I used to think I was going to get killed by a jack rabbit and now he hardly notices them.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

> (*Bsms*):
> As you might guess, I'm no fan of saying, "Wear a helmet every time! Be safe!" While a helmet can be helpful, I find it relied on. If you tell someone to wear a helmet, you've done your part. Too many treat it as doing "all you can do" because "riding is dangerous" and "horses are unpredictable". Speaking as someone who learned riding by riding spooky horses, I find it is entirely possible to train a horse to be much less spooky, and to help a rider stay on - by equipment and riding technique - when a spook occurs.


Definitely. The worst is when you have a rider who has not yet learned how to stay on through (nearly) anything, and also has a reactive horse that is still green. That describes me when I started wearing a helmet. So I'll say, at least I started wearing a helmet! But also back when I started wearing a helmet I was riding in a western saddle with a horn and suede seat, and trying to avoid situations that would over-face my horse.

I guess I don't really see helmets as a band-aid, because I've known really good riders on well trained horses that tanked off onto their heads. My thought is more along the lines of "well, if you're not going to work on getting a good seat, and you never go faster than a walk, you might as well wear a helmet for the day your horse meets his nemesis and bolts away, because you're never going to stay on." For the really good riders of the world, it's a good idea because of the freak accident no one can prevent. For the bad riders, it's a good idea because something will spook their horse if they ride long enough, and they will definitely fall off. 

Let's say my friends and I ride 200 hours a year for 10 years. In those 2,000 hours some freakish things are bound to happen. Someone might try to fly a drone over my horse, someone in the bushes might start shooting a gun, a bald eagle might drop a stinking bobcat carcass next to us, a branch might swing back and whip my horse in the face, a horse might step on a wasp nest, a helicopter might come over the ridge and land a few yards away, dynamite might go off in a hidden rock quarry. 

Since all of those things have happened to me personally, and those are only a few of the "freak" things that have happened, I think it is a good idea to wear a helmet.

Something I find dangerous but is very common, is to mount on a horse without holding onto the reins. I see many people do this, on their mellow horses that have been trained to stand. It gives me a funny feeling in my stomach, because I've seen horses get spooked and bolt in that situation four times now, and watched the rider go bouncing around and off, or be hanging on oddly for awhile before falling off, or once get stuck hanging off the saddle.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Riding dangerously could be considered getting on a horse! 

For me it is acting the fool whilst riding, not having some concentration on the horse. 

I have done many many things that most would consider dangerous, for me they were fun! Like a pair of us on a horse going round a course of jumps indoors with me sitting backwards.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

gottatrot said:


> But some of us have to learn the hard way.


Sad but true! And that includes me.

https://www.horseforum.com/endurance-riding/dave-rabe-accident-wear-helmet-150863/


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

trailhorserider said:


> Speaking only for myself, my guy was young and spooky and he has gotten so much better over the years. He's 8 years old now and hardly spooks. But when he was only 2-3 years old, he spooked at anything that jumped out.....dogs, rabbits, birds, etc. I think some horses are just naturally more spooky than others. And he was my first foal so I wasn't the best trainer. And for actually saddle training, he was at the trainers only 2 months. So he was basically a very green horse that I was taking out on trails. I used to think I was going to get killed by a jack rabbit and now he hardly notices them.


And did you need equipment that would lock you into the saddle to withstand the most violent fight-or-flight reactions, or did you simply get a few startles for a while? As I said, my little guy is 11 years old, and he still does things occasionally like evasive maneuvers "left-right" in quick succession, at the canter... I'm not getting spooks that would have me look for special spook-resistant equipment just to survive the next ride, though.

The argument here was about helmets and risk mitigation. I'll ride a horse that challenges me at the edge of my current skills, not a horse that I need to grow into. (I have turned down rides like that, knowing the horse.) I put on a helmet for the residual risk I can't predict, not to get on a horse that'll toss me more likely than not if I get on.


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

gottatrot said:


> Something I find dangerous but is very common, is to mount on a horse without holding onto the reins.


THIS. So much! My friend has no idea why I scream at her to gather her reins and grab some mane before mounting. I have issues mounting anyway but watching people with the opposite i.e NO regard, gives me high blood pressure!


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

A helmet can't be a bad thing - it will protect you for a few scenarios. Same as a body protector. Again, it's only a minor insurance to some and a major insurance to others, particularly for those whose lives it's saved. Someone's daughter dies from a cracked skull? Suddenly everyone's advocating it. Another person's daughter has never broken a bone falling off? They sure believe they don't need it. I'm just using extreme examples and arguments I've witnessed in real life. Another man's stupid is another man's smart. I like motorcycles. It gets me through traffic fast, I save time and am less stressed (when I had one). The amount of people who called me names you won't believe it. And yet they never once mentioned about how dangerous it is that I ride horses? Or how dangerous it is that I cross without a pedestrian crossing? IDK man... this is something we're never all gonna agree on.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

I just couldn’t walk by a statement made about holding up a horse’s head when stumbling. I can’t say I never do, but I can say it is not a benefit to the horse. It is a detriment because you take away some of their ability to right themselves. If it is at all possible, give the horse his head when he begins to stumble. He then has all of his methods available to gain his balance again.

I understand it feels wrong to do. Like I said, I am many times guilty of picking up a horse’s head as he trips.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Avna said:


> You need to ride with a dog so your horse gets used to dogs!
> 
> I agree with pretty much everything you said otherwise. My horse has startled me many more times when I'm with others than alone, because I just can't pay attention to all the people and horses and my own horse as well (I'm unusually handicapped in the attention department, I'm pretty sure). I think my horse feels the pressure of keeping up just as much as I do,and will rush things she's afraid of, when in company, not to be left behind, that she would work her way through carefully if by herself.
> 
> ...


I'm joining this a bit late so I've quoted the whole thing, with which I mostly strongly agree!







Just I think if you look at the statistics, I don't think jumping ordinary obstacles on a horse is particularly dangerous, even bareback, if you can ride. Personally, I've never gotten into trouble jumping, even bareback, and nor has anyone else I jumped with back at riding school etc; the worst thing that happened to me jumping once, and it wasn't at all bad, it was funny actually, was when I was barely ten and riding in a group in the snow, and tail-end Charlie, and the whole group jumped a log, and my horse came to a stop and sniffed at the log, and I laughed and dropped my reins, expecting to have to take another run-up, when the horse decided to jump from a standstill, and I sailed into a different direction and ended up head-first in a deep soft heap of snow, which was hilarious!

I think when a sensible person is jumping, they are hyperfocused, and that's why accidents jumping are less common than accidents in motor vehicles, in which a lot of people feel artificially safe in their little bubble and appear not to remember the laws of physics (if they ever cared).

As you say, most accidents don't happen when you're on the horse. I could be naughty now, of course, and say when you are hitting the ground, you are no longer on the horse! ;-) But that's not what we mean.

This, by the way, is a general post, I've just jumped in by commenting on something in yours, @*Avna* , because it got me thinking.

So on the general topic of riding and danger, I think that assessing risk a little more objectively can also be extremely helpful - getting into a motor vehicle is much more dangerous statistically than getting on a horse, and you can guess which one I prefer!  (except when it's hailing or bucketing down and blowing a gale!)

Our ABC just did a really interesting article on risks versus fears here:

How your worst fears stack up against reality - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

It contains a nice little quiz that asks you to pick the three things you fear the most off a list, and then runs you through the statistics. It also presents a really thorough discussion on fear, the irrationality of much of it, and rational risk assessment.


I've ridden mostly alone on trails, because living isolated in the Australian bush, since age 11 and have never come to significant grief doing so in 35 years since. When I was 11 there were no mobile telephones or other technological gadgets for alerting people to your whereabouts if you were in trouble, and there weren't for a long time. I've done this with and without helmets and saddle at various times. I've come off a few times on trails, but it's amazing how few times that happened, maybe half a dozen times in all my life, probably because I remained focused and have always had great relationships with horses who contributed actively to my safety as a rider. About half that time is because the horse fell - wire strung across a wide sandy trail once (and we were gallopping, very hairy fall), or a concealed ditch in the long grass, that sort of thing. I've never had to walk home from out on a trail after a fall, the horse stayed with me.

One of the worst injuries I ever received riding was _because_ I was wearing a helmet, at a time when helmets were pretty useless for anything other than holding your skull together for the morgue. Remember (if you're over 40) those black velvet hard caps that looked pretty and had a simple elastic under the chin, same as goes in your underpants? That was required riding wear in my riding school in Europe (where I lived till age 11). And on a group ride, the entire group spooked at a semi-trailer coming up behind us with compression brakes going on, mass panic and bolting ensued, and everyone but a little girl even younger than me came off. The person who fell off just before I did broke her skull in one of these caps and nearly didn't make it. And when I fell off, the cap twisted on impact and the hard edge of it came down and shattered the bridge of my nose. And yes, it had fitted correctly, they were simply useless, as these two examples showed, and I did not wear another helmet, even jumping, until they finally made affordable crash helmets for riders that actually had crushable linings and decent attachment harnesses.

And yes, we can speculate that maybe the woman's skull would have smashed worse without the cap, but a decent helmet actually does something useful on impact, by providing a crumple zone (and by staying in place properly), and that would have prevented her horrific injury. And my nose certainly wouldn't have been pulped if it wasn't for that poor cap design. If only I'd had something decent instead!

I've worn decent helmets riding since my 20s, but haven't had a head-first fall where it would have come in handy in all that time, and I can fully understand why cowboys wear hats and Australian stockmen wear Akubras instead of stack helmets, and I think that's a reasonable choice given the comparatively low head injury risk with seasoned riders on good horses. Statistically, a stack helmet is probably more useful to you when you get in your car, for additional safety in case of a major crash. And for cowboys/girls and stockmen/women, sun protection and having a cool head are actually bigger priorities for risk reduction - skin cancer is actually a significant risk from lengthy regular horse riding, and skin cancer kills many Australians. And I well remember nearly passing out from hyperthermia several times when wearing a black eventing stackhat riding in the Australian summer - the effect that had on my alertness and functioning in my view outweighed its advantage of providing impact protection for my head, in overall accident probability, in my view. So I was glad when they finally made white, slotted, high-airflow riding helmets, which is what I've worn ever since.

If riding solo with a horse, in Australia, in any case, I think it's probably more important to have a decent multitool on you so you can cut wire in case of entrapment, than a mobile phone (if you live in an area with good coverage - and I do not). So much fence wire gets pulled across tracks by kangaroos and emus crossing fencelines etc.

And in conclusion I will say that for me, being on a horse always felt safer than being in a car, on a bicycle, or on foot (although I do all of these). When you have teamed up with a good horse, you are looking out for each other far more effectively than I could look after myself without the horse. Its senses and instincts in nature are first-rate, and if I had to outrun humans with designs on my life, I'd choose a horse over my own legs, a bicycle, a car, or any other form of transport, every time!


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

As far as I can gather, there are NO good arguments for not wearing a helmet. There are a few easily dismissed arguments (my hair will get mussed, it looks dumb, nobody I know has brain damage, I just rely on my sheepskin saddle pad, etc. 

There's a philosophical argument about personal freedom which essentially comes down to the balance between personal choice and community responsibility -- people who make stupid personal choices often end up being social burdens. The more that a given society picks up the tab after somebody's poor choices, the more it tends to feel obligated to interfere with those choices. That's just how it is. 

Most people who don't wear helmets do this not because they have weighed the arguments and made a decision for themselves, _but simply out of habit_. Habit is one of the most powerful forces in anyone's life, far more than most people understand.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Knave said:


> I just couldn’t walk by a statement made about holding up a horse’s head when stumbling. I can’t say I never do, but I can say it is not a benefit to the horse. It is a detriment because you take away some of their ability to right themselves. If it is at all possible, give the horse his head when he begins to stumble. He then has all of his methods available to gain his balance again.
> 
> I understand it feels wrong to do. Like I said, I am many times guilty of picking up a horse’s head as he trips.


As the stumble occurs, the horse-rider center of gravity travels in front of the temporarily hindered front feet. When you trip over something, you'll run a bit to try to get your feet under your own center of gravity again. Something slowing your body's rotation as inertia and gravity cause your head and torso to travel forwards and towards the ground would help with that. 

Inertia also moves the horse's head to farther out front, and cannot be conducive to regaining control as the legs struggle to stay ahead of of the center of gravity. So I stay upright in order to prevent more (my own) mass from traveling forward and lighten the load up front, and I keep the reins steady to stabilize the horse's head. 

When you stumble, and you start running towards someone or something, do you seek to avoid it to regain balance faster, or do you use it for support to slow your upper torso, so get your feet can get caught up?


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

I do not have a long neck and a heavy head, but I do know that if I were stumbling along at speed, I use all of my own athleticism to control my balance or my fall, because no, I probably am not the most athletic style of human. Lol.

Now, if I were to say there was a monkey on my back and he grabbed my attention in some way while I was in the process of falling I am pretty sure I’d land on my head, or had he made me look up, maybe my chin. 

I see that we probably won’t agree, so that is okay too. I had it pounded into my little brains as a child, and it makes perfect sense to me.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

When my horse stumbles I automatically throw them the reins. I'd need a lot of evidence to the contrary before I changed my m.o.


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## Tazzie (Nov 8, 2011)

Whew this thread took off while I was gone for the weekend! Interesting conversation.

I am very much in the "helmets all the time" camp. If you're going to ride my horse, you will wear a helmet. My horse, my rules. I have friends that ride without helmets, but I just leave it as their choice. Myself, my husband, and my kids are ALL be helmeted. They know the rules and follow them. What I am thankful for is our sport is changing, and top hats are becoming more rare at the upper levels with people switching to helmets. This accident is what sparked that, and I'm thankful for that. I never wanted to wear a top hat. I like my helmet, and buy ones that keep me cool and fit nice (the Tipperary Sportage)

https://www.equisearch.com/news/courtney_king_dye_injured_in_fall_030410

As for dogs on trails, I grew up with the barn Labrador would come out. But it was all private trails so we didn't bother anyone. I wouldn't trust our knucklehead to follow along well, and being a 100 lb brute of a dog, he'd scare a lot of people who wouldn't immediately see he's a giant softy. It's not a risk I'm willing to take given that something could happen to HIM if he's loose with us. I wouldn't necessarily appreciate meeting an unleashed dog out riding since there is no telling if the dog is friendly or not. That and a lot of places I go are public where dogs aren't allowed on the horse trails.

Jumping is a fear of mine, so I prefer to stay on the flat :lol: but those who jump know they are taking a risk in doing that as there are rotational falls, etc involved in that risk taking.

I know I missed a lot of other stuff I read since I'm running in and out of the lab this morning, but I did read it all :wink:


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

Tazzie said:


> Jumping is a fear of mine, so I prefer to stay on the flat :lol: but those who jump know they are taking a risk in doing that as there are rotational falls, etc involved in that risk taking.


Same! Man, growing up I assumed jumping was something I just HAD to do as an English rider. It was a central part of lessons everywhere I went. Even coming back to it in my 30s, I did a little of it in my first two years of riding (and by a little I mean a LITTLE, like jumping a crossrail or two now and then). Even my current coach just assumed I wanted to jump because we never actually discussed it.

It wasn't until this past winter, when the AP saddle I was using broke and I had to borrow her dressage saddle, that we actually had a conversation about it. We were both making assumptions, but now I'm continuing in that saddle, and that discipline, and staying with feet more or less on the ground, where I feel much happier and safer!!

Jumping -- for ME specifically -- always felt like dangerous riding. Because the joy of it did NOT outweigh the risk in my case.


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## elkdog (Nov 28, 2016)

Riding dangerous are two words that really don't go together forr me. Kind of like military intelligence.

A horse trusts us for all it's needs. Food, water, shelter, health cate, foot care,.... Because they really have no choice.
Trusting a horse is optional for us. There's been a lot of horses I don't trust and the simple solution is, don't go near them.
I had to go through a bunch of horses to get to the ones I have now. My two best ones I raised from birth. We have no secrets from each other.
Do I trust them with my life?
ABSOLUTELY!
I don't know how many times I've looked over a 300 foot cliff with nothing between me and certain death but a stirrup. 
When we go out in the wilderness our lives depend on each other. If the horse takes off and leaves me, we're both screwed.
Horses are big animals and can be dangerous. The mutual sharing of trust and respect will reduce or even eliminate the danger.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Leave a helmet out in the sun, then put it on. Leave a straw hat out in the sun, then put it on. What you feel is why many ranchers use straw hats in the summer, wool cowboy hats in the winter, and helmets never. Since it works for ranchers who ride all the time, many western riders follow. 

I took a few jumping lessons in the 80s. Thought I was going to pick it up again when I started riding at 50. My horse had other ideas. It would probably kill Bandit, whose knees took a lot of abuse before he came here. I still love watching jumping, but it is an elevated risk.

If there is a community responsibility to remove all unnecessary risk, recreational riding needs to cease. Instead, society as a whole accepts and even approves of taking some optional risks - because we all do. Miatas & Motorcycles! Hiking in the mountains. Or desert. Swimming in the ocean? The undertow might kill you. Happens all the time. Living in AUSTRALIA?  Everything is trying to kill you there. Move!

Society accepts individuals taking risks for pleasure because it would be a joyless world if we did not. I enjoy riding fine while wearing a helmet. Any new rider who wants to ride out with me WILL wear a helmet. But I can accept others taking chances that I will not. Just not on my horse.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

bsms said:


> Living in AUSTRALIA?  Everything is trying to kill you there. Move!


:rofl:

















mg: I just realised I'm actually a ghost.

The Headless Horseperson.










And I've been dead a long time because life is so dangerous here.

But it was not riding that killed me, and I am still riding! :thumbsup:

Told you the horse is good! :rofl:


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

I find the argument that no one wore helmets before 1980 hilarious, I started riding in the late '60's and most everyone wore a helmet, once again the notion of 'everyone' and 'no one' is kind of situational I guess.....or maybe it looks like that in books..


At a ladies Dressage Retreat all weekend, riding nice dressage horses in groomed arenas...


My horse, bless her, went into full spook mode, like she used to, as I posted elsewhere, she had a moment, I didn't. Coach was shouting SIT UP, and I did that, and got her back under control. There were those that said when I first got her, that she was not a good match for her, and they would have been right, without a coach, they would have been right, with a coach, we worked through it. Real life knowledge and experience really won the day there.

My friend fell off her mare the first day, same as she has done the last few rides, without a coach it kept happening. Coach got her back on, and got her to ride it out, and SIT UP. Next day the mare tried her new trick again, but J was sat up, and solid and rode it through....mare made one more half hearted attempt, and then quit, and the rest of the weekend was fabulous.


I know not everyone wants to ride dressage, but I watched everyone from the most inexperienced pair to the most improve. What always strikes me is the phrase I hear so often from my coach...."There, THERE did you feel that, the horse likes that" So often it is the small changes....a big beautiful young warm blood, with a very talented and experienced rider, she has got into the habit of breaking at the wrist, and when it was pointed out and she stopped that, he just went so much better.


Eyes on the ground are invaluable to me, because I want a happy horse, and although I THINK I'm repeating what I have read or watched, it is just a little off. It is the best feeling in the world when Fergie softens and relaxes into something with the "finally the idiot has it" sigh. All of this has made us a safer partnership...


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

I am also in the helmet wearing club. :lol: I ALWAYS wear one when I ride.
I prefer to protect myself.

If you don't wear one, that's your choice. But I will always wear one.

ALSO, out on trails...I've hit my head on low branches before LOL & if I didn't have my helmet, talk about OUCH that would've hurt. Didn't even feel it. :lol:


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

Golden Horse said:


> It is the best feeling in the world when Fergie softens and relaxes into something with the "finally the idiot has it" sigh. All of this has made us a safer partnership...


This is excellent! I now know exactly how to describe that sigh you're on about now haha!


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

As far as holding a horse's head up when in a bad stumble I have heard (never have had the time during a really bad stumble to test this theory) is so the horse is less likely to somersault as it could if his head is tucked down. Whether this is true I couldn't say, my instinct in a stumble is to try to stay balanced and let the horse have his head to recover as best he can, I don't want the reins too long as I don't want a foot getting tangled up with the rein.

On the subject of riding with a loose rein, I like to ride with a loose rein but out on the trails I move my hand a few inches in front of the pommel so the horse is travelling with a loose rein (not hanging down practically to his knees) if something happens I can quickly bring my hand back a bit and have contact. I never ride with a really loose hanging rein because if the horse has a bad stumble or has to do some serious scrambling to get out of a nasty situation there is a lot less chance of getting his foot through the rein as this could make a bad situation even worse.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

@Woodhaven, about ten years ago I learnt a little hack from another rider that I've continued to use. It's to stop the reins from flopping about and being thrown over the horse's head in case of a hairy situation on the trail. It's just a thin rope that runs from girth to girth across the horse's chest, with the reins threaded through softly (but not too loosely). One situation I really want to prevent is a loose horse after a fall wearing a bit stepping into the reins at speed and hurting its mouth. This really lowers that risk.



It also gives me a useful extra piece of rope when out. You never know when it might come in handy. Once I used the rope to ferry some broken Ezyboots back from a trail - just tied them together and to the saddle so I didn't have to carry them in my hands. (And I started using Renegades after that, and no repeat scenarios!) And you also never know when you might have to hogtie an annoying human on a trail! ;-)


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

@sue yes you had a picture on here some time ago with that rope and the reins through it and I questioned you about it and what was the function and it did seem like a good idea. I have never tried it yet but I still remember and maybe should give it a go and as you say it keeps the loose horse from stepping on the reins. Great idea.

I also carry a piece of fine rope along with me, you never know when it will come in handy, also a little first aid kit hooked on to my saddle, hoof pick, vet wrap, gauze pads, small pair of wire cutters etc. never had to use it but......


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

You sound extremely prepared, @Woodhaven!  Are you using an English or Western saddle? I'm interested in how you hook these things up - do you have some sort of saddle bag? English saddles don't always have good attachment points / options for that. So I usually just carry things in my pockets, although the multi-tool lives in a crevice under the saddle flap...


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I always carried wire cutters when out with hounds. 

I rode into some scrub to give the Huntsman room to pass and Rufus was entangled in some old rusty barb wire that had been dumped there. 

One of my most pleasing moments was that despite Hounds going off in full cry, he stood stock still, held by a friend, whilst I cut it all off him.


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

@sue I ride in a dressage saddle and the pouch I carry is about 5" by 10" and I put a double headed snap on it and hook it to the ring on the pommel (along with the breast collar strap that hooks there) it hangs down a bit and does bounce some at the trot but the mare seems ok with it and never bothers about it and we do a LOT of trotting out there. I have a small rope on the martingale that goes over her shoulders and I can grab it if I need to and it's an extra rope if needed. I have a pouch on my belt where I carry my cell phone and a pair of glasses tucked down the front of me ( I don't want my good glasses broken) so I can see the dang thing to call. I wear a pair of men's breeches with big pockets where I carry extra elastics for my stirrups, a few candies because I like candies, a length of binder twine, you never know, Kleenex and toilet Paper again, you never know.

I also have another small rope looped across the pommel and tied to the rings there. This is my( Little safety strap) and as I ride I have to admit that I ride with one hand and hold this strap with the other, I am an old lady now (77) and I sure don't bounce well and also my riding skills and ability have faded with the years. My husband's health is not the best and I sure don't need to suffer a riding injury right now. My mare rarely spooks, maybe three times in five years but if she does it is serious, and the darndest thing is when it happens I often am not holding my life line, go figure.

As far as the elastics for the stirrups, you can loose them in the heavy bush sometimes so it is good to have a couple of spares but often I don't even know that I have lost one until I am home and untacking so I guess they are not that essential to carry with me.

Plus I always wear my helmet.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Would "riding dangerous" be a redundancy? TIC


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Hondo said:


> Would "_riding dangerous_" be a redundancy? TIC


It would be foolish. I'd never get on a horse that has earned the name "Dangerous". :wink:


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

^^^^^^ Not Never Nomore!!!!


In my younger, foolish days I did get a couple of horses that were considered unsafe and should be put down and worked with them but not a smart thing to do.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I reckon riding slightly dangerous would be ok?

https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Slig...+Commander+In+Chief's+dam+was+a...-a060182606


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Hondo said:


> I reckon riding slightly dangerous would be ok?
> 
> https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Slig...+Commander+In+Chief's+dam+was+a...-a060182606


:rofl: That's where I'd draw the line...personally!


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

mmshiro said:


> It would be foolish. I'd never get on a horse that has earned the name "Dangerous". :wink:


Thereby lays the difference - I would! 

I was always one who, of someone says 'that horse/ dog is dangerous' I wanted to prove them so very wrong. 

In all my years of doing this I can only think of three that were put down for being so. One had a brain tumour, the other cancer of the withers and the third couldn't find anything wrong with him.

My last horse, Rufus, came to me with the label of being not only 'strong' but totally 'nuts' and mean in the stable. Didn't take long for us to understand that there were two ways of doing things, my way or my way. He was always a strong ride especially with Hounds but we knew each other well and had total trust. 
My friend's children, just little ones, could brush him and ride him about the stables and he looked after them perfectly.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Foxhunter said:


> I was always one who, of someone says 'that horse/ dog is dangerous' I wanted to prove them so very wrong.


It really depends on who is saying it. A beginner rider? Someone's grandmother?

I've had many people tell me a horse was dangerous. I always want to know why. You'd be surprised what you hear. 
"That horse is dangerous, he purposefully stepped on my foot."
"That horse is dangerous, when he did a fast turn I fell off and broke my ribs." 
"That horse is dangerous, I let him run for home three times and now he keeps running home." 

Experienced horse people I've been around don't tend to call a horse dangerous, they say "_It's_ dangerous."
"It's dangerous to run past her with another horse."
"It's dangerous to hold him back too much in the beginning."
"It's dangerous to load him in the trailer first."

I've not yet met a horse that was comprehensively dangerous, most just have certain things they need to work on.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

This guy is wearing a helmet. I'm not sure I would feel safe in his place.......


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Celeste said:


> This guy is wearing a helmet. I'm not sure I would feel safe in his place.......
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMoYCPDwQ40


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

I really enjoyed watching that video


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Several posters have commented on the rate of head injuries while unmounted around horses; Pony Club required all children to wear helmets when handling horses, mounted and unmounted, at events.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

AnitaAnne said:


> :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
> 
> I really enjoyed watching that video


Hopefully I won't get in trouble for posting it. You have to admire the rider's skill.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Celeste said:


> Hopefully I won't get in trouble for posting it. You have to admire the rider's skill.


Dear Celeste; I admire more than the riders skill, he has several admirable qualities *cough* visible :lol:


The camera operator could have done a slightly better job though...would have enjoyed some close-up of the jumps 


Edit to add: Is this the *real* natural horsemanship????


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

You girls!!!


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Avna said:


> I'm training my pony to drive, and I don't think I will be driving alone for a long time if ever, there is just too big a potential for a wreck. I think the danger is more for the horse than me. After all, I might fall out of the cart, which is a lot closer to the ground than being on top of my horse, but the pony will then be loose and panicked and dragging a cart, what could be worse?


Your concern about this is well-founded. Growing up at a harness racing enterprise, I've seen some really bad situations with loose horses that have carts attached. One of the worst was a horse getting trapped in a plain-wire electric fence running at 6kV, with metal shafts on the cart. The thrashing, panicking horse had to be cut out of the fence and then spent more time racing around blindly with the cart attached, catching the tyres on trees etc, as it ran off its adrenaline. It was injured (but luckily escaped severe injury) and highly traumatised by the experience.

I won't have plain-wire electrics on a property with horses, or even non-electric wire fences, without at least one wide sight tape in the line - that's how we are set up, and the internal paddock divisions are three lines of visible electric turbo-braid. I would never have trained horses to harness personally on a property with (for horses) hard-to-see fences, and I was already stressing about this way before the accident happened. I have a pretty good imagination for what can go wrong, and act accordingly - I don't wait for the accident to happen first.

I also wouldn't harness-train horses in any place they could conceivably get to a public road loose with a cart attached. With carts attached they are extremely accident-prone, will catch on and in things, and are far more prone to panicking than ridden horses who have lost their rider.

Harness trainers often carry knives, so that in emergency situations, with an inexperienced horse down in a cart (not infrequent when harness training young horses), they can cut the harness straps and quickly release the horse from the cart.

Being closer to the ground in a cart doesn't always ensure a gentler fall than what you get from the top of a horse. You can get caught and dragged along behind a panicking horse, especially if the cart flips sideways and traps you. You can get slammed against a wooden fence post when a panicking horse tries to get through a gateway. These things don't happen that often, but every long-term harness driver I know has stories like this from their own experience.

The worst example of a person exiting a cart that I have personally seen was when a friend was driving in a race. The horse in front of him fell, his horse stacked into the falling horse, and as a result of his horse going down at around 48km/h (30miles/h) our friend's cart left the ground, turned into a catapult and shot him in a large parabola over the fallen horses to come crashing into the hard track in front of them, with the rest of the field still racing at high speed and horses trying to avoid stepping on fallen horses and drivers. We were all holding our breaths - his wife and young children were right next to me, and it was terrifying for us to watch this scenario unfold. Our friend was badly bruised, but thankfully escaped serious injury.

I'm not at all trying to discourage you from driving - high-speed harness is a greater risk than recreational harness, but in the educational stage, the risks are very similar. Personally, I so much prefer riding!

:cowboy:


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

Celeste said:


> Hopefully I won't get in trouble for posting it. You have to admire the rider's skill.


That is MUCH to admire. MUCH. My one hormone I have left did some jumping of it’s own.....:smile:


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

And I really hope HF can be cool with the human body _au naturel_ in a non-sexual situation. I was born in Europe, and most Europeans really don't have an OMG response to a nude human (unless they are on a public bus or other really enclosed non-sauna type space or conducting a class or on a pulpit etc).

And you do have to admire his skill. Was this the French rider who did it because he lost a bet with a friend?


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Well, I had the idea when I get too decrepit to ride, I can just get a cart. Just decided on an ATV instead that I can lead Hondo with for exercise.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

@Hondo, are there many fences in your area???


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

...give me room lots of room underneath the western sky......how I hate fences.....etc

Not many and most of those are inaccessible other than on foot or a horse. Just large boulders surrounded by plants with pointy stuff. The trail on the recent video I posted was lined with thorns of various varieties.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

SueC said:


> :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
> 
> And I really hope HF can be cool with the human body _au naturel_ in a non-sexual situation. I was born in Europe, and most Europeans really don't have an OMG response to a nude human (unless they are on a public bus or other really enclosed non-sauna type space or conducting a class or on a pulpit etc).
> 
> And you do have to admire his skill. Was this the French rider who did it because he lost a bet with a friend?


It was a costume class and he didn't have one with him, so he improvised. Sure ran out of there fast and the audience was trying to watch his dismount :thumbsup:


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

@Hondo, do not give up on your cart-driving idea just yet!  We know you're extremely good at tinkering, general engineering and DIY - so here's a little project: A cart that is attached to a horse by a means that can be quickly released by pushing a button on a remote control retained by the driver. I'm sure all the necessary components are already invented, it's just a question of putting it all together creatively.

And of course, the remote control has to be safeguarded from accidental button-pushing! :rofl:


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

AnitaAnne said:


> It was a costume class and he didn't have one with him, so he improvised. Sure ran out of there fast and the audience was trying to watch his dismount :thumbsup:


In Australia, we refer to that as the Birthday Suit! 

Good thing he didn't stack it and roll several times on his axis! :rofl:


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Celeste said:


> This guy is wearing a helmet. I'm not sure I would feel safe in his place.......


When my previous BO took me bareback riding, she told me "a.. crack on the spine" to get the right position of the pelvis. This is a whole new level of "literally", though.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

I wonder if nude riders get fur stuck to their bottoms!

:rofl:

Anyone got any empirical data they'd care to share?


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Driving can be quite dangerous, more than riding in many ways. 

I had a young Morgan mare I was training break a trace. The shaft hit her and she took off. I managed to leap from the cart before she ran into a fence and flipped over it. Somersaulting over the fence broke the other trace and she was free. 

That was the end of cart training for her. Fortunately she only had a few scratches, no major injuries. 

Yeah, carts are dangerous, but fun too.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

@SueC I tried it once in my younger dumber days. It was uncomfortable. The hair and horse sweat is just an icky feeling.

I only was in a cart once. I was a little girl and my mother decided to start a horse on pulling. She hooked him up and was driving him from the ground. She said she was nervous to get in and I said I wasn’t, I’d do it. She didn’t check the tires on the cart.

They were low and one started to squeal with my weight. The horse was gentle enough, but he panicked hearing that with those blinders on and I think he hadn’t actually realized what was going on up to that point. He ran blind and I tried to get him stopped. I realized I should jump soon enough, but the with the mind of a child made me think to walk to the side of the cart. When I did it flipped the cart behind the runaway horse. It drug for quite a ways before coming apart.

If I remember he got a bit cut up but ended up not too bad for wear. The same result for me. I never got the opportunity to get in one again, and he never was asked to pull one either.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Knave said:


> @*SueC* I tried it once in my younger dumber days. It was uncomfortable. The hair and horse sweat is just an icky feeling.


First of all, let me express my deep respect for you owning up to this! :bowwdown:

I can imagine this wouldn't be a comfortable experience, but at least us girls don't have vastly exposed, vulnerable gonads in the equation.

I am thinking though, cleanup would be much easier than after a sweaty bareback ride in formal white breeches! And think of all the water and detergent you would save! You could just hose yourself off along with your horse, and dry yourself in the sun. 

Glad you and the horse got out of that cart scenario relatively unharmed...


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

Hahahahaha! I shouldn’t probably have admitted to it.  

Yes, cleanup wasn’t as bad as I imagine white breeches would be, but I was glad to get cleaned up! It had that feeling of if you’d have peed your pants, only hairy. It was not fun. Not even that cool to say I did either. Teenagers are not the sharpest tacks.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Knave said:


> It had that feeling of if you’d have peed your pants, only hairy.


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

This description is award-worthy!










Has it ever been uttered before in all of human history? If so, then very rarely I imagine!

:rofl:


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Knave said:


> Hahahahaha! I shouldn’t probably have admitted to it.
> 
> Yes, cleanup wasn’t as bad as I imagine white breeches would be, but I was glad to get cleaned up! *It had that feeling of if you’d have peed your pants, only hairy.* It was not fun. Not even that cool to say I did either. Teenagers are not the sharpest tacks.


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Worse than riding naked is riding with a bathing costume on having taken the horses to the beach so all are wet and sandy!


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Foxhunter said:


> Worse than riding naked is riding with a bathing costume on having taken the horses to the beach so all are wet and sandy!



And now we are all going to assume you've ridden nude as well, because otherwise you'd not be in a position to make that statement! :rofl:


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Prove it!


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Ah, the 1960s! ;-) Or the spirit of that age, anyhow! ;-)


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

SueC said:


> @Hondo, do not give up on your cart-driving idea just yet!  We know you're extremely good at tinkering, general engineering and DIY - so here's a little project: A cart that is attached to a horse by a means that can be quickly released by pushing a button on a remote control retained by the driver. I'm sure all the necessary components are already invented, it's just a question of putting it all together creatively.
> 
> And of course, the remote control has to be safeguarded from accidental button-pushing! :rofl:


I overslept a little, didn't get up until 5 am, and was a little drowsy when I read this. You woke me up and set my gears turning! Yes! Great idea!

I have a retired ATV with super suspension. Why not a cart with four wheels like a wagon? with a release at the front that could set the horse completely free? With full hydraulic brakes on all four wheels while of course wearing full body dirt bike armor.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Bingo! :bowwdown:


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

:winetime:I want to thank the contributors in the last few posts for evening laughs!


As for the dangers of riding, or horses, or cleaning the barn, or falling off the hay stack, or whatever the original thread title was... my answer is yes. I have had my share of misadventures over the centuries and made friends with the dirt probably more than I care to think about. I've gotten up limping and I've gotten up laughing. Mostly I've gotten up having learned something. I'm not as brave as I used to be. Maybe that's just called self preservation. 
I will probably give it up someday but just not yet.:cowboy:


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

I like that, @*Dustbunny* . It reminds me of something an older friend said to me 15 years ago. She was in her mid-40s then, and on a hike together we were looking at the sun damage on our arms, which in Australian outdoorsy people is considerable - you can't always wear long sleeves, and sunscreen only does so much. She said to me that she saw it as reflecting all the lovely walks she had had on beaches and in the bush, all the vegetables she had grown in her backyard, all the swimming, all the picnics, all the wonderful times she had had out of doors, really living her life; and she said to me that she would not swap all these experiences for perfect skin or for a lower skin cancer risk.

Now I am the age she was then, and when I look at my hands, I do not see smooth and manicured hand model hands, but I actually really like my hands, with all their signs of wear and the dirt under the fingernails from scratching that old horse's itchy spot earlier today, and with slightly enlarged joints from a bit of arthritis, and scars across the skin from cuts and mishaps. These are hands that have lived, hands that planted seeds, carried reins, helped build our house, made so many enjoyable meals, scratched itchy spots, tickled tummies, held other hands, cradled many books as I read them, waved to other people, trimmed horse hooves and donkey hooves and cow hooves, applied band-aids and bandages, wrote millions of words, made drawings and paintings, held and worked a violin and bow, swung off trees, milked cows, dug ditches, stacked wood in the heater, made knots, picked fruit off our trees, pegged washing on the line, traced many times the face of the man I love, and are still doing all these things.

To live is precious, and it's good to be sensible, but you can't eliminate all risk - and if you try to lock yourself away from all risk, then when you die you won't have lived.

It's about this:

_“Real isn't how you are made,' said the Skin Horse. 'It's a thing that happens to you. When a child loves you for a long, long time, not just to play with, but REALLY loves you, then you become Real.'

'Does it hurt?' asked the Rabbit. 

'Sometimes,' said the Skin Horse, for he was always truthful. 'When you are Real you don't mind being hurt.' 

'Does it happen all at once, like being wound up,' he asked, 'or bit by bit?' 

'It doesn't happen all at once,' said the Skin Horse. 'You become. It takes a long time. That's why it doesn't happen often to people who break easily, or have sharp edges, or who have to be carefully kept. Generally, by the time you are Real, most of your hair has been loved off, and your eyes drop out and you get loose in the joints and very shabby. But these things don't matter at all, because once you are Real you can't be ugly, except to people who don't understand.” 
_― Margery Williams Bianco, The Velveteen Rabbit


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

Well said, Sue C!!!!!!!!:falloff:


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## imagaitin (Apr 27, 2012)

LOVE the Velveteen Rabbit quote. Thank you for sharing!

I live in a rural mountainous area, where most of our riding is straight up, or straight down, and above 9,000'. We do have some incredible views, and run into lots of wildlife. With all the steep inclines, I trust my horse, giving him his head to choose the best route over the rocky terrain. After all, he doesn't want to fall any more than I do, and he knows what I feel like on his back. 

"Safe" for the horse would be trusting HIM. I have seen people who are accustomed to less rocky riding, ask their horse to lope down rocky paths. This causes much damage to their hooves; stone bruises, etc., and the LAST thing you want on a trail ride is for your horse to go lame. "Safe" for me means being alert, and staying as calm as possible. My horse senses when I tense up, and does likewise. A little tough when encountering something like a bear, but not so bad with deer and free range cattle. _"Keep breathing; stay calm"_ I constantly tell myself. 

I never ride alone. And yes, at times I carry a gun. There are no cell phones where we ride, so I *always* carry a beacon. It is to be used only in dire emergencies, but you hit the button, and a rescue helicopter arrives WHEREVER you are. Happily, I have never needed to use it.

And before every ride, I pray to God that He keep me and my horse safe and calm, and return us safely to the trailer.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

SueC said:


> ...She was in her mid-40s then, and on a hike together we were looking at the sun damage on our arms, which in Australian outdoorsy people is considerable - you can't always wear long sleeves, and sunscreen only does so much. She said to me that she saw it as reflecting all the lovely walks she had had on beaches and in the bush...you can't eliminate all risk - and if you try to lock yourself away from all risk, then when you die you won't have lived.


I started wearing long sleeves in my early twenties. On the flight line, I had a long sleeved flight suit. Of course, when jogging, I had short sleeves. I'm now getting skin cancer checks twice a year. If it comes to it, I'd rather die early than never have lived.

That said, my face and hands get a lot of per-cancerous stuff that burns off easily. The mole they removed a 1.5 inch circle for was on my ribs and the most recent one - very small - on my shoulder where my T-shirt would have covered it. The doctor says most of what is showing up is either damage done before I was 18, or genetic. He encourages sunscreen and long sleeves because they MIGHT help a little...but says the truth is that what has been done was done, if at all, when I was a child.

I actually view it similar to some riding precautions. I'll do something that MIGHT help someday without expecting it to really help very much at all.

But yeah, the skin on my hands and face is starting to look more like saddle leather. And I wouldn't want it any other way. I've spent much of my time out of doors, often in the desert. It is like the wrinkles at my eyes. I've spent a lot of time telling jokes, laughing, and yes, squinting - with sunglasses and a hat, but squinting still in the desert sunlight! Heck, it isn't like I was ever offered any jobs as a male model anyways ( :rofl: ), nor would I trade the life I've led for one sheltered from the outdoors! I've EARNED those wrinkles!

And if some day I'm killed riding...well, as long as I wasn't being stupid at the time, so what? Better that than the slow death my Mom had in her mid-80s. A couple of years of darn near torture for her - mind failing, body failing, often falling, badly confused. I wouldn't wish that on anyone! Certainly not her, nor me either.

If I met an old guy with young hands, I wouldn't trust him. Something wrong with someone like that. If people my age don't have some scratches and dents, they've spent too much time stored in the garage!


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Oh wow, this is excellent! :clap: :loveshower: :clap: :rofl: :clap: :dance-smiley05: :clap:

Spoilt with wonderful posts this morning. Thank you @*imagaitin* and @*bsms* , and @*Dustbunny* for launching us into the stratosphere, after some of us were rolling around on the ground laughing! Nice view from here! 

@*bsms* , I had my first "suspect" removed this year, on my forearm. Histopathology said it was a mere benign lichenoid keratosis, but better safe than sorry. It won't be the last; this is typically when it begins, and all the 40+ outdoorsy types I know are getting something chopped out every couple of years. The main thing is to look out for skin changes and take them to your GP - and to have a competent GP. That said, a friend with an actual diagnosed (but totally removed) primary melanoma had only a tiny freckle that had turned black - it looked small and harmless.

You hear about some people who wait until they have mandarin-sized tumours, and are then surprised when the doctor tells them they are riddled with secondaries inside.

@*imagaitin* , you're an inspiration, and I wish you many happy trails. When I was a teenager and first started riding very very long forest trails of many hours on my own with my Arabian mare, I used to do the "dressage salute to the judge" when getting to the trail, to ask formally for God to watch over us. This didn't mean I didn't do my part, either. At the time, for reasons discussed a couple of pages back in this thread, I wasn't a helmet-wearer, but I think focus and attention and above all good horsepersonship (is that a word? ;-)), like understanding that you can trust your horse if you are a good partner to it, is way more important and effective overall than extraneous safety gear, in preventing accidents. Not that there isn't a place for safety gear, just that people often seem to get lulled into this idea that safety gear makes them _safe_, and that it replaces the more important matters, which is like straining out the gnat but swallowing the camel.

:cowboy: :charge: :falloff: :rofl: :racing:


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

Not that I have ridden in my birthday suit, but we old ladies did take our horses to the local swimming hole. When we got there we did get down to our birthday suites and stripped the horses of their gear and headed into the swimming hole sans clothes and saddles. Now, please remember we are old ladies; therefore, when our old bodies hit the water, well....it looked like we were surrounded by jelly fish and other floating orbs as our assets that the good Lord gave us, floated around, in front of, and behind us....whether we were floating on our backs, or on our bellies.....just a lot of orbs floating around.

The visual and memory still makes me giggle......

Thank gawd the river was void of kayakers that day.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Post #170: 










...and an edit, because @*Knave* and other posters have gone out on such a limb, so here's my embarrassing story. Apart from one somewhat embarrassing and challenging episode of the consequences of drinking coffee before going on a long fast ride, which is buried here:

https://www.horseforum.com/horse-talk/ridiculous-trail-ride-experience-479794/page3/#post6210794

OK, here goes...once I most mortifyingly got spung at a toilet stop in the middle of nowhere in the Blue Mountains, where I thought I was safe and had actually checked the track in either direction and listened intently for any cues of approaching humans, and my walking buddy was actually shielding from one side of the tracks. This was next to a river bend, and suddenly heads appeared over the rushes mid-business. I kneejerk reacted by pulling my hiking pants up, but my directions to my body to stop flow _now_ unfortunately weren't immediately effective, and just as the other walkers were really starting to notice me, I dived in horror into the river fully clothed to restore hygienic conditions. 

It was the middle of the New South Wales winter and, while there was no ice or snow, winter in the Blue Mountains is very cold... the water was, shall we say, invigorating. I bathed in what I desperately hoped looked like an intentional, bonding-with-nature manner until the hiker group disappeared, but then my friend came around the bend, sized up the situation and expressed much amusement.









I will now sing the praises of microfibre thermal hiking pants - you can wring them out and they will keep you nearly as warm damp as dry. It was a two hour walk to complete the loop, and doing that in wet jeans would not have been fun!


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Someone I know was on a ride and went into a port-a-potty but there was no one she knew nearby to hold her horse, so she held the door closed while holding onto the reins. Except her horse pulled away strongly and she was pulled forward off the toilet, and fell out the door on the ground with pants down. Might have been better to let go of the reins for a moment.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

A different thread is discussing emergency dismounts. So along the lines of dangerous, here are a few additional thoughts:

1 - Dismounting a scared horse. Maybe. The one time I was hurt bad was dismounting a panicked horse. One drawback to Mia was that she viewed a rider dismounting like a Captain abandoning ship. It obviously meant the ship was about to go down - and if SHE was going to sink, she was planning on taking her captain with her! Odd as it sounds, it was one of the toughest things about riding Mia. If she was at all worried, she'd go full-bore panic at an attempt to dismount. She also viewed any attempt to ditch the stirrups as a decision to dismount! Her common response in those situations was to leap into a bolt for 100 yards of gallop.

Bandit, OTOH, views a dismount as "My rider is going to make me safe!" This is a HIGHLY preferable attitude! It is actually a big part of why I feel so much safer on Bandit. I can do a dismount without him doing an Arabian "_I can explode in 0.05 seconds - try beating that, sucker!_" response. I can wiggle a tad in the saddle - a signal I'm about to dismount - and he looks back at me like, "_Well get down ASAP and make me safe!_" I _love_ that!

2 - Rubber soled boots and rubber inserts on metal stirrups drive me nuts. I leave my left leg in the stirrup while dismounting. Rubber against rubber often catches up. Rubber on leather or rubber on bare metal has never caused me a problem.

When visiting people in my twenties, I did do a few dismounts like these for fun:






I'm old enough that they don't strike me as a whole lot of fun any more. I've started taking supplements for my knees and am more aware of my own mortality. This is slowed down slightly from the only dismount I've got on video:






If my foot catches in any way during the dismount, that stirrup / boot combination is banned. If my horse explodes as I am dismounting, I want my foot to pop out without any hesitation. I'm almost always using leather-bottom western stirrups now. The ones that caught my foot the most were some very lightweight, nylon English stirrups. After a couple of rides, I dumped them in the trash. BTW - if I hurry, it takes me about a second to go from first movement to a foot on the ground. Maybe a little under.

What is a hazard depends so much on the details!


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

@SueC, I had tears rolling down my face while reading your story. Probably because I have my own similar stories from nekkid butt pictures to looked like I peed my pants.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

I'm glad, @*JCnGrace* ! :hug: A good belly laugh is excellent for your health. It combats stress, releases endorphins, benefits the immune system, makes us realise we're not the only ones to have thought or done certain things, makes us realise life can be very funny, connects people with each other, etc. I do a lot of :rofl: here on HF because of others being kind enough to share their jokes and embarrassing stories. And I don't know why this is, but embarrassing stories always seem to be soooooo funny in retrospect, whether our own or other people's! 

@*bsms* , it's such a rollercoaster today. One moment this thread is having lofty thoughts, next moment we're rolling around in the gutter laughing again and having trouble breathing. Thank you for the next uphill! :clap: Most interesting.

One thing I do very differently is that I have both legs out of stirrups before dismounting, then swing the legs back and over the horse, and land on both feet on the ground next to the horse shortly after, preferably not on a boulder (don't laugh, or indeed please laugh if you want to, since it's happened to me, and gave me the worst sprained ankle I've ever had in my life - I was so busy trying to get an ambulance for a rider way out on the trail with a broken collarbone that in the rush I forgot to check my landing strip first...) 

I think if I dismounted like you do, I'd end up with a knee reconstruction one of these days when it went wrong. Your situation and mine are different... with me the length of the levers involved makes a dislocation more likely, for starters!  Also I'm not the most coordinated person in the world.

By the way, with the dismount technique we were taught at riding school in Europe, there were always bonus points if anyone could click their heels together behind the horse on the way down! :rofl: _There's no place like home, there's no place like home, there's no place like home._ ;-)


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

That’s how I get off too @SueC! I forget I do it until I get on an ouchy horse that isn’t mine. I get off and everyone is looking at me big eyed. Lol

I made little girl start getting off my way too, because I saw her catch a foot in the stirrup on the pony (after she had dropped the reins and the pony was walking away and it was one of the pony’s first somewhere new rides) and it was kindness of the pony and a blessing of the Lord that she wasn’t drug. I hadn’t realized she left a foot in the stirrup until then. Now she doesn’t. The big girl still does though and I can’t convince her differently.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I've had sort of a dread fear of getting hung in the stirrup. My solution to the fear has been oversize stirrups with a cover in the front that prevents my foot from any possibility of getting hung. And I still kick both feet loose prior to dismount because it's so easy to stumble with one knee almost up to my chin.


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## Change (Jul 19, 2014)

I mostly ride alone, and I'll admit that even though I own a helmet, I rarely remember to put it on - mostly habit, or lack thereof. I'm not advocating riding without, though. 

In over 50 years of riding, I've done a lot of dangerous, silly things on horseback. As a child - before cell phones - my sister and I were usually out in wild national forests from dawn until dusk, often miles from the nearest road or house. We rode on firebreaks, deer tracks, or just wove through the woods. I almost always rode bareback. Don't ask me how, but we survived somehow.

I've ridden naked - @SueC - hairy sweat in unspeakable places is just YUCK. I've ridden in shorts and swim suits and that isn't much better, especially after the horse has a nice roll in the sand. As a teen I'd ride alongside busy 4 lane roads, bent down to press the cross-walk button, gone through Jack In The Box drive-throughs (you try getting your horse to step on the cord that would tell them someone is at the ordering box!). I've swam horses in lakes and made deep river crossings. I believe every rider and every horse should know how to jump, even if they hate it.

Here I am now, at 60. I ride alone for the most part, since I don't know anyone else nearby who rides (@AnitaAnne, at 2 hours away is the closest). Two years ago, Tango was unbroke so is probably what most people would call green. I ride him out alone or with my son on his 4-wheeler. We meet unleashed dogs, cross or ride alongside roads almost every ride. So far he's dumped me twice, and both times it was at something I wouldn't have expected him to spook at. He warned me by stopping, refusing, hesitating, but I didn't listen to him and tried to make him move past. My bad. But - when I took him on two intro endurance rides, he was all business on the trail (except when he tried to lay down in soft sand or belly deep water!) and obviously loved it. Some things got a look - a bridge we had to cross - but he'd step right up and follow another horse. 

When I ride alone I do always take my phone with me now, and my son has me GPS tracked so if I'm not home when expected he can find me. Yes, I take risks, but I'm not stupid.

What I consider dangerous: a horse that doesn't stand still to be mounted or dismounted wherever we might be; a horse that can't or wont jump or step over an obstacle on the trail since going around or back isn't always an option; riding anywhere near barbed-wire. And the most dangerous thing of all: people who don't think.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I hadn't heard of the 'pull both feet out & drop' method until I read about it. Didn't really believe anyone did it until I saw people on HF saying they did. It is a technique I only know about from books and YouTube. Don't think I've ever seen a live person do it.

For me, a dismount is just the reverse of a mount. Until my right leg comes across, a horse who bolts away will be ridden away - or at least, that's my plan. Worked with Mia. Once my leg comes across, worst case (theory) I just step down while my horse leaves. THAT didn't work with Mia, but only because she reared and spun when I started to abandon ship! 

Until I had tried it with rubber-soled boots and a rubber tread stirrup, I never imagined being caught up while dismounting was possible. Traditionally, western riding was done in leather-soled boots and leather stirrups, and the boots had large heels. Then again, rubber inserts in English stirrups seems to have come in after WW2. Ronald Reagan would pull the rubber inserts out of his English stirrups.








​
General Patton probably had no inserts either:








​ 
If you've ever tried riding smooth steel English stirrups with slick leather soles, the preference of old time riders using the home position, and even of pointing their toes down, makes sense.








​
I notice my 4-bar Australian stirrups have cheese-grater tops. They aren't too bad to keep on the feet. In addition to stirrup & boot design, western saddles often have 3" stirrup straps instead of 1", which might make a difference. And it is pretty common to see a 6'2" guy on a 14.2 horse - unlike English disciplines, where I read of 5'2" ladies worried their 17.0 hand warmblood is "too small for my leg"!  

Can't watch an old western without wondering what it would be like to throw a leg over your horse, then pull your feet up and put them into the stirrups!


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

My sister and her boss and I were out hunting. It was a boring day, not a lot of scent and in the forest. The three of us decided it was potty time and rode back and took a little side track. We stopped amd dismounted. 

As the weather was cold we all had several layers of clothing, I know I had a pair of long johns under my breeches, a long tailed hunting shirt, a thermal vest all tucked in. I was the last one up the track and as we all squatted so the Huntsman, Bill came charging along blowing the hunting horn calling Hounds. He couldn't get along the track because we were blocking the way. Sis and D. leap year up pulling their clothes up. 

Me? I had started and had to finish. I told Bill to be a gentleman and turn his back! 

It isn't easy trying to get everything tucked in when Hounds are streaming past you and your horse thinks it is time to follow them!


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

gottatrot said:


> Someone I know was on a ride and went into a port-a-potty but there was no one she knew nearby to hold her horse, so she held the door closed while holding onto the reins. Except her horse pulled away strongly and she was pulled forward off the toilet, and fell out the door on the ground with pants down. Might have been better to let go of the reins for a moment.


I have frequently contemplated the necessity of doing this, but never actually have because I imagined it ending just like this! Or even worse, toppling the whole thing over and showering me with the contents!

I have spooked many a horse-including this past weekend-opening a portapotty door without knowing one was standing outside. I try to remember to open it a tiny crack and peak around to make sure it's clear of horses...but that could easily be interpreted as trying to sneak away without being noticed


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Foxhunter said:


> Worse than riding naked is riding with a bathing costume on having taken the horses to the beach so all are wet and sandy!


Now that I have definitely done. I have not ridden au naturelle but in a bathing suit many times as a kid. Yeah, wet sandy and hairy -- but I don't remember caring at all.


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

Sometimes we would have a big group ride, up to a 100 horses in a huge conservation area and some people would split off so there were several different groups out there and every once in a while you would come across a horse standing with his front end partly in the bush and as we approach he would lift his head and turn to see us and a voice would come out of the bush "Stand still dang you"

BSMS that was a very nice dismount and I think I could see that your right hand was on the horn. 

We always did a dismount when younger (much harder to do today) where feet out of stirrups, hands on each side of the pommel and the upper body weight over the hands, legs swinging back and the right one coming gracefully over the rump and landing on both feet with knees slightly bending on impact, facing the front of the horse.
This was just one continuous movement not broken up into sections and since we did it often, it could be done in a second and I think it is good to be able to do this in an emergency.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

sarahfromsc said:


> Not that I have ridden in my birthday suit, but we old ladies did take our horses to the local swimming hole. When we got there we did get down to our birthday suites and stripped the horses of their gear and headed into the swimming hole sans clothes and saddles. Now, please remember we are old ladies; therefore, when our old bodies hit the water, well....it looked like we were surrounded by jelly fish and other floating orbs as our assets that the good Lord gave us, floated around, in front of, and behind us....whether we were floating on our backs, or on our bellies.....just a lot of orbs floating around.
> 
> The visual and memory still makes me giggle......
> 
> Thank gawd the river was void of kayakers that day.


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Could be on a thread somewhere titled "Dangers of Kayaking"


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

sarahfromsc said:


> Not that I have ridden in my birthday suit, but we old ladies did take our horses to the local swimming hole. When we got there we did get down to our birthday suites and stripped the horses of their gear and headed into the swimming hole sans clothes and saddles. Now, please remember we are old ladies; therefore, when our old bodies hit the water, well....it looked like we were surrounded by jelly fish and other floating orbs as our assets that the good Lord gave us, floated around, in front of, and behind us....whether we were floating on our backs, or on our bellies.....just a lot of orbs floating around.
> 
> The visual and memory still makes me giggle......
> 
> Thank gawd the river was void of kayakers that day.



The visuals have my wobbly bits wobbling! The last sentence cracked me up, I was visualizing another forum with their talk of canoeing and kayaking


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *sarahfromsc* View Post 
_Not that I have ridden in my birthday suit, but we old ladies did take our horses to the local swimming hole. When we got there we did get down to our birthday suites and stripped the horses of their gear and headed into the swimming hole sans clothes and saddles. Now, please remember we are old ladies; therefore, when our old bodies hit the water, well....it looked like we were surrounded by jelly fish and other floating orbs as our assets that the good Lord gave us, floated around, in front of, and behind us....whether we were floating on our backs, or on our bellies.....just a lot of orbs floating around.

The visual and memory still makes me giggle......

Thank gawd the river was void of kayakers that day._




Golden Horse said:


> The visuals have my wobbly bits wobbling! The last sentence cracked me up, I was visualizing another forum with their talk of canoeing and kayaking


I'm playing catch up on this thread. Y'all went off on some wild tangents!


I'll go off topic a bit as well. I was once out with some of my historical trekking friends in our canoes and wooden boats, all of us dressed in 18th century clothing. We were just drifting with the current, as some of us had hand lines out for fish. 


A modern canoe approached from upstream. We thought there were 2 people in it, but when it got close we could only see one, a guy at the stern. As the craft pulled alongside us, we saw an arm reach up from the floor of the canoe and pull the baseball cap off of the guys head. Then a lady sat up to look at us. She had a baseball cap, his and hers I suppose, covering each of her forward assets. Not sure who was more surprised.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

quote from @bsms "I hadn't heard of the 'pull both feet out & drop' method until I read about it. Didn't really believe anyone did it until I saw people on HF saying they did. It is a technique I only know about from books and YouTube. Don't think I've ever seen a live person do it."

That's how I always get off. Essentially it is a bareback dismount. I can't say I do it gracefully -- I often am flopped on my horse's withers on my stomach and then slide off. Of course I don't have a horn to get in the way of doing this. 

It feels a lot safer to me than "stepping" down off the horse. For one thing I am very short legged and even my 14.2 mare is a looong step down. Another thing is that if the horse suddenly moves away during the dismount, I just land on my feet holding the reins, there can't be a hang-up in the stirrup.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Avna said:


> That's how I always get off. Essentially it is a bareback dismount. I can't say I do it gracefully -- I often am flopped on my horse's withers on my stomach and then slide off. Of course I don't have a horn to get in the way of doing this.
> 
> It feels a lot safer to me than "stepping" down off the horse. For one thing I am very short legged and even my 14.2 mare is a looong step down. Another thing is that if the horse suddenly moves away during the dismount, I just land on my feet holding the reins, there can't be a hang-up in the stirrup.


 Its the only dismounting method I've ever been taught so I also always do it that way - and like you, I'm not very tall and dismounting with a foot still in the stirrup from some of the 16.2 plus horses I've ridden over the years would have left me with a very stretched leg as I tried to get the other one on the ground
I do find it twists my back now though and I do something that looks like a sprawl and drop technique. DH has the same problem so he swings his right leg over the horses neck and slides off with his back against the horse - which fits into the 'riding dangerously' category I think


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I was taught to get both feet out the stirrups and dismount that way. 

Working with racehorses I learned several things, first, they are not mounted from the stirrup, riders are either legged up or vault on. 

Using a stirrup to mount would freak them out! So, for a couple of reasons I started dismounting keeping my left foot in the iron and then kicking it free before dropping to the ground, this is the army way. For some reason the horses didn't mind this and it taught them to accept mounting with the iron. 

I continued to do it as I found it easier on my back to be able to take the weight in the iron to get my leg clear.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Avna said:


> ...Essentially it is a bareback dismount. I can't say I do it gracefully -- I often am flopped on my horse's withers on my stomach and then slide off. Of course I don't have a horn to get in the way of doing this...


When I took lessons at Utah State in the 70s, the instructor was a former cowboy. His ideas on mounting were focused on how to mount a horse who might take off part-way thru the mounting. Same with dismounting. And I suppose there is a cultural (and tack-ual, so to speak) difference between English riding and folks who grew up thinking this was fun:










I mean, *really?*​ 








​In a sense, I guess he taught every dismount as an "emergency dismount" because he assumed the horse might take off at any time during the process! And it seems, looking at the picture above, that a lot of western riders don't worry as much about getting caught in the stirrup as English riders do. Nor as much as I do! I'm very fussy about boot - stirrup design & sizing. You couldn't pay me to do what that guy is doing if he was jumping onto a motor driven BED instead of a steer! I'm tempted to curl up into the fetal position just looking!

The instructor I learned from assumed the horse would sometimes explode during the mounting/dismounting process. He'd have been scared - well, he didn't seem to get scared of much, actually, but he would have been "concerned" - about any pause in the dismount where a horse spooking could cause a problem.​


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Foxhunter said:


> So, for a couple of reasons I started dismounting keeping my left foot in the iron and then kicking it free before dropping to the ground, this is the army way. For some reason the horses didn't mind this and it taught them to accept mounting with the iron.


This is actually more or less how I dismount. I do keep my left foot in the stirrup until my right foot clears the horse, at which point my chest is over the off side of the horse with my belly on the saddle, then I kick my left foot clear and drop down.

I actually normally dismount on the off side so everything is reversed for that.

Interesting that the army does it that way.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

The US Army taught it closer to what I learned:

"_Dismounting. First Method. The rider takes the reins in the full grasp of his right hand so that the forefinger is between the reins and the bight falls to the off side. He then places the right hand on the pommel, adjusting the reins so as to lightly feel the horse's mouth. He moves the left hand to the crest, removes the right foot from the stirrup, and, with his weight on the left stirrup and his body inclined slightly forward, passes the right leg, knee bent, over the horse's croup without touching it. He brings his heels together for an instant, and then descends lightly on the right foot, with is followed by the left. He at once takes the reins over the horse's head in order to hold or lead him._"

[Note: The second method is much the same, only the rider moves his right hand to the cantle as he brings his feet together. He then descends right foot first.] -- Horsemanship and Horsemastership, Education of the Rider, Ft Riley, 1935. Also see American Military Horsemanship by James A. Ottevaere

PS: The image first posted in my previous post has disappeared from view. It was this. I wouldn't want to offend anyone who does this for fun...:cheers:










Steer Wrestling Competitions NJ, PA, DE & NY
​Also, from a long ago thread on mounting using the saddle horn:



kevinshorses said:


> The problem with holding the cantle with your right hand is that you have to let go to swing your leg over and if your horse moves then you will loose your balance. If you put your right hand on the horn then you maintain contact through the entire process. If you are getting on colts or riding problem horses then it is even more important.





nrhareiner said:


> This is how I mount also. Left hand on the mane and right hand on the horn. I do not like to have my hand anywhere to the rear of the saddle. You have to let go to finish mounting. Not good at all.


https://www.horseforum.com/western-riding/mounting-using-horn-47065/

@*DanielDauphin* has the best video I've seen from a western perspective. Notice the diagonal pull. There are other ways, but he has thought thru WHY he does it that way. I can say it works well based on my experience trying it.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

A little off topic, but there is an interesting article on rodeo injuries here:

"_From 1989 to 2009, 16 bull or steer riders died from thoracic compression injuries -- blows to the chest. Of those, nearly all were wearing protective vests. None of the five rodeo contestants who died of head injuries -- including two bull riders -- were wearing helmets....

...The study showed that from 1989 to 2009, there were 49 catastrophic injuries, of which 21 were fatal. Of those deaths, 11 were bull riders, seven were junior bull or steer riders, two were female barrel racers and one was a saddle bronc rider. The ages of those injured or killed ranged from 9 to 49; about one-third were under 18. Nearly 78 percent of all catastrophic injuries occurred during bull- or steer-riding events._"

Rodeo participants increasingly wearing protective gear but to unknown benefit, study shows


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

I talked to an old cowboy that competed in steer wrestling before he got old enough to figure out how painful it was. I asked him how you prepare for an event like that. His answer?

"Get on the back of a pickup truck. Get your buddy to drive 45 miles an hour through town. Jump off and grab a mailbox."


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Celeste said:


> ..."Get on the back of a pickup truck. Get your buddy to drive 45 miles an hour through town. Jump off and grab a mailbox."


Or hurt yourself laughing so hard when reading someone's post! :clap: THAT is a genuine classic!


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Riding Dangerously????


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Riding dangerously! In this case, I think the rider is about to get what he deserves. Feel sorry for the horse, though:









:loveshower:​


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Hondo said:


> Riding Dangerously????
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOyvimZuF5o



Wow, that definitely falls into my definition of riding dangerously! Especially starting at the 3 minute mark. And at 5:38, wow! Heck, I would need a change of britches after most of those obstacles! 



Yup, I wouldn't be caught dead doing most of those. What an amazing video, thanks Hondo for posting it!


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Hondo said:


> Riding Dangerously????
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOyvimZuF5o



That is a great video, what I find interesting is that going down most of the steep banks the riders were leaning forward. 

The other thing is (spoiler alert) if you see how the horses had their weight back and were 'sitting' in their hocks and basically sliding down. Compare that to the Man from Snowy River, the descent, and you will see that the horse is just galloping - the trees were actually cut and set at an angle to give the vision of a steeper slope 

Even out hunting I have never had to go down such long steep slopes into water. Like following Hounds or jump racing you have the herd mentality of sticking together NOT saying it was easy at all, just that the horses want to stick together.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

> His horse, bred from a strain of purebred Arab, is game and fearless.


Those look like Arabs to you? :smile:
Haven't seen too many of these fearless Arabs around doing this kind of stuff!!


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

gottatrot said:


> Those look like Arabs to you? :smile:
> Haven't seen too many of these fearless Arabs around doing this kind of stuff!!


Hee. When I saw that I thought, wonder if @gottatrot will have anything to say about that. 

I think to some extent at least, riding dangerously is relative to rider and horse skill. 

I did notice he forward riding position @Foxhunter. I also wondered about the scene setup on snowy river, not to say the horse/rider were less than very skillful.

The one where the horse said, " I don't think we should go down this one", but did anyhow was awesome.

I did one very steep slide with Hondo and I'll admit I sure wasn't leaning forward.


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## Change (Jul 19, 2014)

Hondo said:


> Riding Dangerously????
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOyvimZuF5o


What I find worrisome is that, short of the staircase, I've done a lot of that type riding, usually bareback. Kids are fearless and stupid and it's amazing we survive! I used to think it fun to do stuff like that. Nowadays, I have a much greater sense of my own mortality!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Dismounting method taught for BHS and Pony club UK






And if you've an aversion to getting wet avoid fox hunting with the Kilross Hunt - around 2:48


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Foxhunter said:


> That is a great video, what I find interesting is that going down most of the steep banks the riders were leaning forward....
> 
> Even out hunting I have never had to go down such long steep slopes into water. Like following Hounds or jump racing you have the herd mentality of sticking together NOT saying it was easy at all, just that the horses want to stick together.


I'm guessing Italian Cavalry from the scenery. Much of what Chamberlin brought back to America was based on his year at their cavalry school. They used "slides" to build rider confidence and teach the horses to attempt almost anything. They also taught attacking the horse with the spurs if the horse balked in any way:


> "Joining the Battle​
> When necessity demands, the rider should go to battle with spirit and determination, but always without loss of temper. The moment the horse gives in, admitting defeat, the tactful horseman is prodigal of his rewards.
> 
> Doubtlessly, some horses behave better when the rider carries a whip. If this is the case, one should be carried, but the legs and spurs should supplant it as rapidly as possible. In the horse's mind, the legs much represent supreme, indisputable authority...
> ...


I respect what the cavalry did for their purposes, but I have no wish to imitate it! I'd much rather give up riding than use that approach. Of course, they would laugh at me and my horse picking our way, with my horse often making decisions! I've ridden my horse while being shot at, but never by machine guns or into cannon fire!

When I got Bandit, I was told he would go past anything if I whipped him hard enough. He might fight back, but if I kept whipping and stayed on, he'd go past anything. The result was a horse who was afraid of many things, but tended to fear his rider more. So he would act confident until his limits were passed, then respond very violently - a horse who believed he was fighting for his life. Like attacking a horse with spurs, I ignored that well-meant advice!

That qualifies as "riding dangerously" in MY book! I feel MUCH SAFER using the Ray Hunt approach: "_A lot of people say, 'Well, you can't show a horse down the road every day that way.' To me, that's the only way you can - or the only way I'd want to go with a horse._" I want to teach my horse to trust me because I am worthy of trust. Because if he does what I say, he'll be safe. I want him to use his superior senses of hearing and smell to alert me to possible trouble, and then let me decide if the trouble is real of not. And after 3 years, we still haven't arrived at 100%. I doubt we ever will. But I feel vastly safer riding Bandit now, when he talks to me and we figure out a mutually acceptable compromise, then I ever would with the "*Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for my rider is the meanest [expletive] in the valley!*" approach.

Also, they taught the Forward Seat for going down steep grades. They said the horse's hind legs couldn't control the steep descent, so the rider needed to stay balanced with the horse - who is using his front legs to control his movement:









​


gottatrot said:


> Those look like Arabs to you?
> Haven't seen too many of these fearless Arabs around doing this kind of stuff!!


They were probably thoroughbreds. Most cavalries preferred them. Many would say full Arabian Mia wasn't courageous, and that half-Arabian Bandit is not. I disagree. Both of them - Bandit in particular - want to live a long time. But in a pinch, if there is a REASON to take initiative and be bold, then Bandit is actually a bold horse. As Mia was before him. The other horses will hide behind Bandit and expect him to take charge, to include initiating the attack if needed.

Bandit will pause before we drop into a wash, or before we climb out, or before we push through brush. Once he accepts responsibility for getting us through, though, he is a very determined and stubborn horse! Of course, if a detour will work to get us past something, he's all for taking a detour! He is much more cautious than Trooper or Cowboy, but he is also much braver! I trust him when he decides it is time to go from A to B. Trooper and Cowboy might falter. Bandit won't.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

jaydee said:


> Dismounting method taught for BHS and Pony club UK...









​ 
_Good GAWD Almighty!_ The western instructors I've had would all consider that dangerous. What happens when your horse explodes halfway through the dismount? You'll be flung off like a booger flicked off a finger! The cowboy at Utah State would have been torn between his desire to tear me a new butthole and his need to laugh himself to death.

"_If your horse starts to appear nervous, or jittery, this would be a good time to have someone come hold the horse to allow you to dismount safely....If you find you have trouble dismounting, you can always have someone help you and assist you..._" Ummmm....no. Heck, when Mia got wound up, she wouldn't LET anyone approach her! She'd spin and run, squirting diarrhea if anyone approached her. And good luck HOLDING her when she was like that.

Joking aside, and I'm only partially joking - _I would be scared half to death to dismount that way!_ - there is a cultural disconnect at work. 

I was taught to assume my horse *will* take off while dismounting. During the first third of the dismount, I should be able to sit back down and keep riding. During the final third of the dismount, I should be able to finish stepping to the ground and watch my horse run away. WHEN this happened with Mia, she always stopped in 50-75 feet and looked back as if to say, "_You aren't coming with me?_" And during the middle third of the dismount, I should be able to choose to either resume riding or finish stepping down. And of course, if your horse does a rearing spin during a dismount, you'll pretty much get flicked off like a booger regardless - as I was in Jan 2009.

I guess I was taught every dismount is an emergency dismount. If no emergency materializes during the dismount (or mount), all the better!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The process was deliberately slowed down in that video so anyone new to riding could see it step by step - it would in fact only take a reasonably agile person a matter of seconds from start to finish.
Sure, common sense tells you to have a person hold a horse that you know to be skittish for some reason but other than that I really couldn't go through my life expecting my horses to bolt off every time I'm dismounting because I've frequently been at more risk when hunting or riding cross country or starting high geared youngsters.
I've been getting off that way since I was 4 years old and so far never had anything happen - so even if it happens tonight I've had a pretty good run of staying safe!


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

bsms said:


> ​
> _Good GAWD Almighty!_ The western instructors I've had would all consider that dangerous. What happens when your horse explodes halfway through the dismount? You'll be flung off like a booger flicked off a finger! The cowboy at Utah State would have been torn between his desire to tear me a new butthole and his need to laugh himself to death.
> .
> !


Well I always thought it risky to dismount keeping one foot in the stirrup until the other leg was on the ground. 

What if the horse freaked away from you and your foot got trapped?


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

Foxhunter said:


> Well I always thought it risky to dismount keeping one foot in the stirrup until the other leg was on the ground.
> 
> What if the horse freaked away from you and your foot got trapped?



I was taught the above method: 2 feet out and lower yourself to the ground, because if you use one foot it could get stuck should the horse spin away.


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

bsms said:


> ​
> _Good GAWD Almighty!_ The western instructors I've had would all consider that dangerous. What happens when your horse explodes halfway through the dismount? You'll be flung off like a booger flicked off a finger!


That's the whole idea though. You want to be able to be totally clear if the horse explodes, which you potentially won't be if one foot is still in a stirrup.

I've been taking both feet out of the stirrups to dismount for years. If they do something before my leg is over, well, I can still sit whatever it is without the stirrups until I find the moment again. And I still keep the reins in my left hand when I swing down, so even if the horse decides to try to book it part way through, I have a hold on him.

The only time I keep a foot in a stirrup while I swing down is in some Western saddles that don't really allow for a fully-no-stirrups dismount because of their construction. I still get that foot out ASAP though.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

SteadyOn said:


> That's the whole idea though. You want to be able to be totally clear if the horse explodes, which you potentially won't be if one foot is still in a stirrup....


I'm certainly not saying it CANNOT happen. Particularly if you are hoping to run ahead of your horse! Note the first person in this video...although in normal circumstances, the HUMAN is trying to stand still while the HORSE is trying to move forward:




I'm just saying what I was told visiting ranches when young, taking lessons at Utah State in the 70s and what lessons I took around 2011(?) all said to dismount the way the Daniel Dauphin video shows, and for the same set of reasons. Using the BHS method, there is a point in every dismount where you are facing sideways to the line of travel, suspended over the horse. Not for long, but during that time you are entirely at the mercy of your horse:

















​ Now...*is it dangerous?* Listening to the videos, what I've done, what rancher friends have done for 50+ years, what every western instructor I've had (and obviously that isn't many) is: "_DANGEROUS! VERY dangerous! Practically suicidal!_" Yet I look at them and think, "_DANGEROUS! VERY dangerous! Practically suicidal!_"

They - and a number of people on this thread - find what I was taught scary. I find what they teach scary. So...is EITHER one right? Or have ALL OF US had our perceptions of "dangerous" shaped by the people we ride with?! We have guys throwing themselves off of galloping horses onto steers, no helmets, for FUN. And people who won't consider getting on a horse without a helmet. Hell will freeze solid before I dismount the BHS way. And I suspect many feel the same about how I was taught.


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

Personally I think that whatever method is used to dismount there is a brief second where the rider is vulnerable and I think it's best to make a dismount as quickly and smoothly as possible.

my dismounts are slower and more awkward as I have aged, those fantastic dismounts on here are for young athletic people who have perfected their style of getting off the horse.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I was never officially taught any particular dismount. I started dismounting the traditional western way, I suppose, from both watching movies and riding with people on the ranch here.

When Hondo and I were being attack by the yellow jackets, I stumbled to the ground on the western style dismount. It has been since then that I started doing the two feet loose and drop method.

I really feel this is the safest for a hyper horse as it allows one to use both arms to forcefully shove oneself away from the horse. Having one foot in the stirrup at the instant this needed to be done, I think, increases the time it takes to get away from the horse. And if the foot "can" get hung up, well, there's Murphy to consider.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Hondo said:


> ...I really feel this is the safest for a hyper horse as it allows one to use both arms to forcefully shove oneself away from the horse. Having one foot in the stirrup at the instant this needed to be done, I think, increases the time it takes to get away from the horse. And if the foot "can" get hung up, well, there's Murphy to consider.


 Using how I was taught, there is no need to use your arms to shove yourself away. As your leg comes over, you STEP AWAY. How far? Totally up to the rider. I can intend to land just beside my horse, or a few feet away. I generally aim to come down beside my horse to minimize any sideways pull, but I can go further if I wish. Perception of risk depends on both our experience and what we've seen others teach. Mia exploded a number of times during dismounts. When nervous, she did NOT want me to abandon ship! Doing this, no matter if only briefly, would have been near suicidal. Just the picture ties my stomach in knots!








It also sometimes depends on equipment. Consider the saddle I used for about 5 years. I assume the BHS technique COULD be done, but it seems it would be darn awkward.









​I think my take-away from this discussion is one I've argued before: *If millions of riders are successful doing X, then X is not very wrong*. My opinion of the BHS technique is genuinely one of "_What the HECK! Are they INSANE?!_" But...if it works, for lots of people over long periods of time, then it is my PERCEPTION that is wrong. As is the reverse. I'm not defying death every time I dismount. Millions of western riders have done it for ages.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Since beginning to participate in this thread, I have, for the first time in my not inconsiderably long life, fractured some bones. (See how dangerous it is to participate in threads like this? :eek_color This lends me enhanced expert status on the multitudinous dangers of horseriding. 

I now present a small summary. More details are available on my HF journal, which has suddenly turned into a broken-bones rehabilitation log, complete with gory photographs and lots of comedic banter all around, as well as other horrific-injury stories from friends. I can just imagine people who have nothing to do with horses randomly coming across my journal online, reading its current content, and saying (_in squeaky_ _falsetto_), "_I'm never going to ride a horse, it's too dangerous, look what can happen!_"









Here are some groovy photos from yesterday:

Attached Thumbnails   

And you have to keep your astronaut boot on whenever possible, and make sure you elevate your leg for good lymphatic drainage:

 

And the really funny thing is, the radiographer said to me that she really commonly sees my injury (multiple broken metatarsals, which are the long mid-foot bones connecting ankle to toes - thankfully I didn't break M-1, the main weightbearer, although the CT scan showed it also had a small crack in it in addition to aligned broken M-2, M-3s, and a displaced-break M-4 but only by 2mm so they hope it won't need surgery down the track). And you know the greatest reason she sees broken metatarsals? Slipping in the bath, bwahahahaha!







So I wonder how many of those people are going to say (_in squeaky_ _falsetto_), "_I'm never going to have a bath again, it's too dangerous, look what can happen!_"











PS: As one of our social thread personages said, it was an unprovoked attack...I agree. An _unprovoked attack by momentum, gravity and the Earth's surface_!









And now I have more data points for a very serious study a group of us on HF are doing:

https://www.horseforum.com/horse-talk/falling-off-nerds-789799/

Looking back at this, I think it was this safety equipment I was lacking:










Alternatively, a small polled steer:

https://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding/emergency-dismount-short-rant-792775/page9/#post1970577849

Neither were at hand. Total systems failure! :shock: :clap:


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

All the youngsters and nutters I have had through my hands I cannot recall more than a couple being anything more than a bit tense when I dismounted (of my own accord).


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

It's your soothing influence, @Foxhunter! ;-)


My husband is like that with computers. They can misbehave for other people, but the moment he approaches, often the problems just spontaneously disappear. Must be his aura! ;-)


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

SueC can I borrow your husband?


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

I am assuming this is for your computer! ;-) Or would you like some strudel and cream?


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Yes, purely for the computer (unless he likes doing housework?) 

Trying to not eat strudels and cream, need to loose way to many pounds.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

He is also very good at housework! 

Our strudels are real food and contain no added sugar, just lots of fruit and some nutmeal (almond and/or hazelnut, sometimes brazil nut, macadamias etc) for protein and extra zing, rolled into a small amount of paper-thin homemade pastry. It's nutrient dense stuff, not empty calories, so not the kind of thing you see commercially or even in most recipe books. It tastes way better than the commercial stuff, and provides your body with decent nutrients, so that one serve will have you grinning like a Cheshire cat for hours and zipping around not needing to eat for quite a while!









We eat like this all the time and are both comparatively lean - and the two are very correlated. Also lots of exercise, and laughter. Very like in the Amish health studies!

I regularly do food write-ups for _Grass Roots_ magazine and am always happy to pass on good recipes. 

Real food:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/redmoonsanctuary/albums/72157687753093115

On half the average Australian grocery budget too!


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Thanks SueC - when will you mail him over? :evil: :smile:


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Dangerous riding......man, I bet if we all got together and just started enumerating and illustrating we'd have more books in the set than Encyclopedia Britannica! There's so much and it varies a lot from location to location, person to person & horse to horse. 

I never wore a helmet regularly but I do now since I had the trailering accident and got kicked in the head so many times. I can't afford another TBI and I don't like walking around knowing that there are holes in my memory. It also affected my eyes, my teeth and my sinuses. Pass on another one like that. 

I never cared about dogs on the trail until a lady I used to go ride with started taking her lab. Loved that dog to pieces but she was a complete airhead, brain dead, non-listening, disobedient PIA out on the trail. And her owner never fished her out of her exploits, it was always me because I was on the shorter horse (easier to mount & dismount). That d*mn dog wore me out. Now, if people show up with their dogs, I go ride by myself, somewhere else. 

I'm also like those who don't want to yak the entire time I'm out. I don't mind catching up on life events, but after a while, can we please just shut up and enjoy the peace of nature? In case you can't tell, I come down squarely on the side of those who want to ride alone. Just like doing barn chores, that's my zen moments in the day. I also like to use the trail ride for schooling various things, I think it helps the horse and me both understand WHY we're practicing stuff in the arena. 

Green on Green = yeah, no thanks, I'll go ride alone. Rude, noisy people...distractions.....cars whizzing past on the highways, deer jumping out dead in front of you. Yup, that horse CAN levitate. 

I think the #1 MOST dangerous thing I've ever done is starting horses in race track gates. Now there's a maiming waiting to happen. I've breezed, I've raced head to head out in the desert, I've jumped the big stuff, it all paled in comparison. 

I grew up in an era where kids were the 'experimental monkeys' and 'crash dummies' in the horse world. Want to see if that new jump combo and spacing works? Tell Pat to ride it. Nobody can stick that horse because he bucks and rears so much? No problem, Pat can stick it. You need to give that horse a colic drench? No problem, Pat's tiny, just lift her up there (never mind the rearing and plunging and flailing hooves) and she'll get that bottle in his mouth. That was back in the days before you called a vet out to tube, we just used a 750 ml wine bottle and made a 'colic drench' and wrapped the neck of the bottle with a towel and stuffed it in the side of the horse's mouth. Yeah, picture THAT! 

I'll ditto the "never jump if you don't know what's on the other side" comment. A friend and I used to go ride our horses around the campus of Cal State University and we'd jump picnic tables and such. One day they were replacing some electric poles, so had these HUGE poles laying around the campus and we started jumping them. Over one pole the horse tried to stick his feet up around his ears and when I looked down, there was a college kid curled up in a fetal position with his book over his head. OOOOOPS! All ended well and we outran security and got in the lake and swam for it. Yeah, cleaning all that leather was a beast.

On the riding alone thing, I leave a note at home. Basically it'll just say, "I'm riding out at Lake Carl Blackwell and I plan to take the White Trail from start to finish. It's 2 pm and I should be home by 6 pm at the latest.". Cell reception out there is spotty at best and there are over 3,000 acres of heavily wooded, hilly terrain to ride in. I also leave a note in my saddle bag on the horse, that says, "We started out on the White Trail at 2:30 pm". If I get dumped and can't reach anyone, and the horse goes back to base camp without me, I figure they'll go through the saddlebag and that will at least give them a clue where I might be. 

When we lived in Tucson and I'd take off up in the Catalinas, I'd leave a note that said, "I am leaving out the back gate and heading due south down the river bottom at 5 a.m., I should be back by 8 a.m. at the latest." Same note with my address on it in my saddle bags. I haven't gotten a SPOT yet, but if I ever start trail riding extensively again, I will. Those things are amazing!


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

bsms said:


> What happens when your horse explodes halfway through the dismount? You'll be flung off like a booger flicked off a finger!


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Gawd my belly hurts



bsms said:


> I guess I was taught every dismount is an emergency dismount. If no emergency materializes during the dismount (or mount), all the better!


Priceless


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

jaydee said:


> And if you've an aversion to getting wet avoid fox hunting with the Kilross Hunt - around 2:48
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PnSuhNFIXM


That ditch :eek_color: I kept thinking _How many more of these will one have to cross?_ and _Will the horse have to cross this again coming back?_ Watching the horses legs scrambling and twisting under them :frown_color: how many became permanently lame after that little ditch :frown_color: 


Notice the littlest of the lot was saying Not doing it, no, no, NO! Smartest one of the entire group...there must have been a better way!


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

AnitaAnne said:


> That ditch :eek_color: I kept thinking _How many more of these will one have to cross?_ and _Will the horse have to cross this again coming back?_ Watching the horses legs scrambling and twisting under them :frown_color: how many became permanently lame after that little ditch :frown_color:
> 
> 
> Notice the littlest of the lot was saying Not doing it, no, no, NO! Smartest one of the entire group...there must have been a better way!


These horses are conditioned to getting across any obstacles they meet out hunting. They are bred strong, fitted up well and run hard.

Just saying, this is why they start horses later, and maybe have lower ideal rider weights, because they expect the horses to work hard.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

The ones that landed in the water were thinking: _I knew this was a mistake, dang rider is always getting me in these situations. Next ditch we come to I'm tossing the fool and heading back to the trailer...or maybe sample some of that nice grass over there_


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

AnitaAnne said:


> That ditch :eek_color: I kept thinking _How many more of these will one have to cross?_ and _Will the horse have to cross this again coming back?_ Watching the horses legs scrambling and twisting under them :frown_color: how many became permanently lame after that little ditch :frown_color:
> 
> 
> Notice the littlest of the lot was saying Not doing it, no, no, NO! Smartest one of the entire group...there must have been a better way!


 There were probably no casualties at all other than a few minor bumps and scrapes, its amazing what those horses can walk away from!! The biggest pain would be having to spend the rest of the day riding in soaking wet clothes on a wet saddle.
They probably do that route regularly since land available for hunting is limited but won't go back that way. With the first in mind I can't figure out why they don't clear a few trees so the horses can get a decent run at the ditch.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

AnitaAnne said:


> ...Notice the littlest of the lot was saying Not doing it, no, no, NO! Smartest one of the entire group...there must have been a better way!









​Every time I look at that picture, I'm glad I'm riding on a horse who would say, "_What the HECK? Have you lost your mind? I'm going AROUND that hole!_" In the military, we joked about "practice bleeding". Some of the stuff we did to prepare for combat was just one step up from shooting ourselves in the leg and practicing bleeding just so we would know how it felt!

Unless something bigger and badder than me and my horse is chasing us, I don't want to learn about jumping big holes in the ground when there is clear land on either side! I don't mind asking my horse to claw his way out of a desert wash, but I haven't dumped a hill of dirt in our arena so we can practice it for fun.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

It not so much that they were jumping the irrigation ditch, its the manner that they were doing it. I used to love jumping, and had several horses that did too. 


But picking a spot that has trees along the edge and going from a standstill just seems a little weird. Plus it really didn't look like the best place to cross. One of the horses went farther along and crossed easier. 


But that is the one of the few sports I haven't done, hunting with hounds on horseback, so maybe I am just not understanding as well as those with experience in the sport. I did hunter/jumpers and some cross country.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

bsms said:


> ​Every time I look at that picture, I'm glad I'm riding on a horse who would say, "_What the HECK? Have you lost your mind? I'm going AROUND that hole!_" In the military, we joked about "practice bleeding". Some of the stuff we did to prepare for combat was just one step up from shooting ourselves in the leg and practicing bleeding just so we would know how it felt!
> 
> Unless something bigger and badder than me and my horse is chasing us, I don't want to learn about jumping big holes in the ground when there is clear land on either side! I don't mind asking my horse to claw his way out of a desert wash, but I haven't dumped a hill of dirt in our arena so we can practice it for fun.


I rather wonder if that horse made it across? The trajectory does not look quite right. Plus the ground on the landing appears to slope back towards the hole. Think I would prefer it to slope away from there...

Notice the rider is not wearing a helmet; don't think anyone, horse or rider, would survive a fall into that hole anyway...but no need to get the backhoe out for the grave!


Anyone want to guess where the jump called "The Coffin" got it's name? :music019:


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I don't think riding helmets existed back then. Guess I don't know, but they certainly were not in common use. That was probably taken in the 20s or early 30s. Horses were treated as expendable.

The Descent of Mombrone​ 
"NOTE: This is a photograph of a descent known as the descent of Mombrone. This descent was done more as a test of nerve than anything else, and in pre-war days every officer had to go down it before he left the School; but accidents were not unknown and occasionally rather serious, and the practice has rather died out since the war [WW1]. Mombrone is an old ruined castle about 3 miles from Pinerolo, and the descent is made from what was once a window about 20 feet from the ground, but earth is piled up a little at the bottom and now the drop is only about 15 feet." ( Some Impressions of the Italian Cavalry School at Pinerolo )









​
7 years of riding Mia left me a pretty tense rider. After 3 years on Bandit, I'm much less tense. Bandit & I had some rough times at the start. He hadn't been allowed to express opinions or make decisions and he was a pretty tense horse. Getting him to think and to talk to me wasn't entirely easy, but the result has been a horse I trust.

I may be a coward, but I need a horse I can trust. Regardless of the situation, I feel far safer on a horse who trusts me because I have proven myself trustworthy, and who I can trust to exercise independent judgment. I tried an "emergency dismount" on him the other day. By the time my right leg cleared his rump, he was stopping. He seemed to think the old guy had just forgotten to give a stop cue first, so he kindly filled in the blank for me. Us old guys shouldn't be allowed outdoors without a horse to do the thinking for us. We just aren't qualified...


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

On the topic of leaving one foot in the stirrup and hoping your horse doesn't explode, I give you...

Edit: Actually, their left feet don't appear to be in the stirrup upon closer inspection. At least not the middle guy's. That's some great balance/leg strength!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

​ 
British Cavalry in World War One. I'm guessing the best option for a dismount was...to roll forward off the horse's neck? Or maybe have someone come over and clear a path off your horse? In any case, it would take a younger and fitter rider than I am! At least he had a helmet.... Remind me not to complain about my cell phone being bulky in my pocket.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Jetpack? Anti-gravity boots? Crane? Block and tackle?


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

bsms said:


> 7 years of riding Mia left me a pretty tense rider. After 3 years on Bandit, I'm much less tense. Bandit & I had some rough times at the start. He hadn't been allowed to express opinions or make decisions and he was a pretty tense horse. Getting him to think and to talk to me wasn't entirely easy, but the result has been a horse I trust.
> 
> I may be a coward, but I need a horse I can trust...


Dear @bsms, wanting to have trusting relationships with other creatures isn't the mark of a coward, it is the mark of a gentleman.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

SueC said:


> Dear @bsms, wanting to have trusting relationships with other creatures isn't the mark of a coward, it is the mark of a gentleman.


What she said!!! :iagree::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Foxhunter said:


> Thanks SueC - when will you mail him over? :evil: :smile:


:rofl: Stop giving me ideas! This is a brilliant stratagem for reducing the cost of air travel, while also getting more leg-room than in economy class (if you travel in a double bass case, for example). And if you can be mailed in a long rectangular box, then you'll even be able to stretch out horizontally and sleep properly. If there is enough room in the box for provisions, and you self-cater, you'll be eating far better too...and none of those little red rubbery in-flight sausages! :eek_color:

Hopefully the cargo department is pressurised and contains ample oxygen.

Hmmmm...toileting...


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

SueC said:


> and none of those little red rubbery in-flight sausages! :eek_color:


I want to know what airline you've been flying that serves rubber sausages! I haven't seen anything but a 1 oz pack of nuts as a snack in years! :smile:


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

They're not served as snacks, but as mains, especially with breakfast, on long-hauls to and from Anglo countries like Australia and the UK. There is no vomiting emoji on HF so I'll see what I can source externally:










Hmm, what I saw on that search was so disgusting that I posted this cartoon instead. :think: Whose vomit is green anyway???

Anyway, disgusting experience, and yet some people loooove these things!

Presumably an economy class item.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

bsms said:


> ​


If the tree that used to be growing out of that stump was growing straight up, then the picture has been rotated to make it appear even steeper. That said, it was pretty steep even with the stump straight up.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

That guy rides better than the guys in the video though. Lol. Ya, even moving for the tree to be straight it is really dang steep.


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

SteadyOn said:


> On the topic of leaving one foot in the stirrup and hoping your horse doesn't explode, I give you...
> 
> Edit: Actually, their left feet don't appear to be in the stirrup upon closer inspection. At least not the middle guy's. That's some great balance/leg strength!


The guy in the center is kneeling on both knees. You can barely make out his left foot behind him.


The one on the right seems to be bracing his left knee against the saddle with the left foot in the stirrup. Older saddles I've examined did not have the safety catch where the leathers attached, as modern saddles do. At least that's how I would do it, if I were to try that.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Who needs stirrups!


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

bsms said:


> British Cavalry in World War One. I'm guessing the best option for a dismount was...to roll forward off the horse's neck? Or maybe have someone come over and clear a path off your horse? *In any case, it would take a younger and fitter rider than I am!* At least he had a helmet.... Remind me not to complain about my cell phone being bulky in my pocket.



War is a young man's game. I was pretty well used up at 38 years old. I retired just before my 40th birthday. 


When I was in the cavalry unit, we didn't carry a full combat load, as in the photo. We did have the bedroll and the carbine positioned similarly. Mounting and dismounting was never really a big deal. We even did rescue drills, mounting on the run. But, I was in my mid 20's then.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I turned 49 in Afghanistan. But I was on a FOB doing staff work. I was at least 10 years past having any business in the field. Came across this video of Civil War re-enactors trying to mount and dismount according to a commonly used manual. If nothing else, it is a good reminder of the historical roots of some of what we still do:








jaydee said:


> Who needs stirrups!


ME! Heck, I'd take a LADDER if I had one!


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

What was the original subject for this thread? :?: I believe it has been just about everywhere. Sure has been an entertaining read though.
For getting aboard I prefer a mounting block, boulder, log or stump, or a picnic table. Easier on pony and person. 
As far as the planned dismount, I believe I will stick to keeping my left foot in the stirrup and stepping off. I can do that quickly and efficiently. I tried the swing the leg over and slide method the other day and I must say my front was not comfortable with that.


Carry on! :razz:


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

bsms said:


> ME! Heck, I'd take a LADDER if I had one!











_Source: Braymere Custom Saddlery_



I've seen plenty of English/Trail people get on using a stepladder! Turns out it's cool for Western too


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

I had little girl take some pictures to show a couple more dismount and mount styles. Lol. Forgive Bones’s dirty look because he’s just learning. You can also see what happens when a person leaves their foot in the stirrup.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

bsms said:


> ​
> British Cavalry in World War One. I'm guessing the best option for a dismount was...to roll forward off the horse's neck? Or maybe have someone come over and clear a path off your horse? In any case, it would take a younger and fitter rider than I am! At least he had a helmet.... Remind me not to complain about my cell phone being bulky in my pocket.


That is probably why the cavalry started to dismount with their left foot still in the stirrup then kicking the left foot free before dropping to the ground. 

Could be the same why western riders dismaying as they do because the cantle is a lot higher than English saddle or, as they use to be.


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## charrorider (Sep 23, 2012)

I'm with BSMS on having a horse one can trust and it can trust the rider. I'm 68 years old and ride Arabians. On top of that, the trails by my house contain a wide assortment of wild life (anything from squirrels to deer) that enjoy jumping out of bushes at the last second when a rider is going by. lol. 
And has anyone here seen those American Indian races? Talk about mounting and dismounting! There're a few videos of these races on you-tube. But one person in the stands with a cell phone doesn't do these races justice. There is a PBS documentary that does a much better job. Of course, those folks had the advantage of having 5 professional cameras recording at different places.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

We went up to a reservation in Montana to look at a horse, and the kids in the arena next to us were having a ball on their horses, doing mounts and dismounts bareback at a gallop, sitting backward, hopping from horse to horse, those with saddles were swinging off and up again and roman riding or just generally screwing around and having a great time on their horses, and the horses didn't care at all. What confident little riders these kids must have grown up to be!


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Dustbunny said:


> What was the original subject for this thread? :?: I believe it has been just about everywhere. Sure has been an entertaining read though.


...because the scenic road is so much nicer than the freeway!


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Aaaaaaaaaah, @Knave , now I get it! :loveshower:

I'm an English-style rider, you see, and I've always wondered what that saddle horn is for. Thank you for showing me!
:clap::dance-smiley05::dance-smiley05::dance-smiley05::dance-smiley05::clap:

Now _that_ makes sense to me!

Because @*Knave* is a dear friend and has put herself out on a limb multiple times in the name of comedy recently, I'm going to make a confession: When I began to ride in Germany as a child, we looked rather askance at Western riding - because of what we encountered of it amongst our own European peers, and it wasn't very skilled! :rofl: Now, thanks to people like @*Knave* , I know better. But in this context you may enjoy this little excerpt on riding recollections from way back in my journal...


*Spring Oddities in Einsbach*

The snow-melt brought with it the moulting of thick winter coats. Instead of grooming our horses in cross-ties in the barn, we now brought them out to the tie rails and curried out swathes of hair while the spring sunshine was enjoyed by two-legged and four-legged participants alike. It was a good workout for us, and the horses stretched their necks up high and wiggled their top lips with pleasure. One of the ladies had a drum vacuum cleaner with a long hose and a horse grooming attachment, with which she beleaguered her unimpressed horses. The rest of the barn were traditionalists and believed in good old elbow grease, oval rubber curry combs with concentric rows of crenellations, and soft body brushes for making their horses shine and giving them a good massage at the same time. In Germany, the work ethic was such that attempts to mechanise a time-honoured thing like the systematic hand grooming of horses was seen by the majority as laziness and accepting second-best – and in truth, no mechanised system of horse grooming I've seen comes anywhere near what a skilled person can do manually with the traditional tools.

The vacuum-cleaner lady was viewed with some amusement anyway, since she had poor arena skills, more from lack of serious application than ineptitude, and heaved her bulk ignominiously into a huge, sofa-like Western saddle that took up the entire back of her smallish, dainty Arabian horse. The profuse horn reaching vertically into the air at the front of the saddle was clung on to almost constantly, so that until I met skilled Western riders years later, I actually thought that was its primary intended function. The frilled leather garb in which she and her husband rode, and the flapping cowboy hats, were such anachronisms in rural 1980s Bavaria that they might as well have dressed as American Indians complete with feather head-dresses to go riding. They were not Americans, they were Germans with the broadest rural Bavarian accents, and the effect was so improbable it was jaw-dropping. Imagine an American citizen in Texas riding around dressed in traditional Bavarian knickerbocker-style _Lederhosen_, suspenders with carved _Edelweiss_ motifs, knee socks, woolen _Trachtenjacken_, and a little Bavarian hat complete with its decorative _Gamsbart _(goat's beard), while drawling “Howdy, pardner!” – and you may begin to grasp the breathtaking cognitive dissonance thus produced. All perfectly good in their home environments, of course...

_Please enjoy these images of Bavarian culture._







































PS: If you think we've been _everywhere_, you ain't seen nothin' yet!  :cheers:


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

Very cool writing and pictures @SueC! I love them. I actually use my horn mostly to catch my dallies, but sometimes I miss them too!


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

Foxhunter said:


> That is probably why the cavalry started to dismount with their left foot still in the stirrup then kicking the left foot free before dropping to the ground.
> 
> Could be the same why western riders dismaying as they do because the cantle is a lot higher than English saddle or, as they use to be.


I didn't know this type of dismount had cavalry origins. It is the method all English style riders were taught when I was a kid. 

@bsms the video wouldn't load for me. But my experience with reenactors is that they are an aging bunch. Likely not as flexible and agile as the historical folks they are portraying. We used an 1880's manual with success. Well trained horses and actual soldiers, accustomed to military discipline likely made a big difference. 


We were the First Cavalry Division, hidebound in tradition. I recall standing by my truck in the motor pool, waiting to roll out in convoy. 


The convoy commander yelled out: 
"PREEPARE TO MOUNT!" 
We all put one foot on the running board. 
"MOUNT!"
We all got in the trucks.


I was safely out of sight of the NCOs, so I could laugh as much as I wanted.


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

Knave said:


> Very cool writing and pictures @*SueC*! I love them. *I actually use my horn mostly to catch my dallies, but sometimes I miss them too!*


Have you heard the old maxim of how to tell a dally roper from one who ties hard and fast (old method of roping in which the end of the lariat was tied to the pommel.)?


A dally roper is often missing a finger or two. 
A hard and fast roper is gimp legged from having horses jerked down on him.


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

@SueC Gruss Gott! Seems we were in Germany at the same time. _I spent most of the 1980's, and part of the 1990's there. Our experience with American cowboy culture there was different though. I belonged to and competed in the European Rodeo Association. And I also met most of my German friends through the Westerntreffen, historical encampments that leaned heavily towards the American fur trade of the 1800's. _

_Rather than hijack this thread further, I'll show you some photos in the Krones and codgers thread. _


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

@*Cordillera Cowboy* : Ich wünsche Ihnen einen schönen Tag!  Haben Sie zufällig die Brezen gesehen? Es ist hier in der Südkugel so schwer, Brezen zu finden - ich muss sie immer selbst backen, und schaffe die Form nicht so gut. Schmeckt trotzdem! 

See you at K&K! ;-)


PS: Non-German speakers wishing to spy: Google translate isn't bad on this, but does get several things wrong... :rofl:


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

Danke schoen @SueC . Hier in unsere platz in Pilipinen, finden wir nicht so viel brezen. Aber, in Tagaytay, wo wohnt viel Deutsche un Sweitzer expatriates, finden si viel backerie. Mien frau mact ein schoene spaztle mit jaegersose. Smecht gut!


LOL I'm years out of practice. I likely butchered that terribly. I also had to read yours a few times over. I think you threw in some Bayerisch dialect.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

That was completely comprehensible, @*Cordillera Cowboy* ! :clap: German is not an easy language to learn, especially all the _der_ or _die_ or _das_ instead of just _the_... which must have driven you mad in Germany!  

For those who'd like an accurate translation instead of Google butchery, our little chat went like this:

_*SC*: @ Cordillera Cowboy, I wish you a beautiful day!  Do you happen to have seen the Pretzels? Here in the Southern Hemisphere, it is so difficult to find Pretzels - I always have to bake them myself, and I don't manage their shape very well. Tastes great anyway! 

*CC*: Thank you, @*SueC* . Here at our place in the Philippines, we don't find many Pretzels. But in Tagaytay, where many German and Swiss expatriates live, you can find many bakeries (/much baking). My wife makes a beautiful Spätzle with Huntsman's Sauce. Tastes good!_


*Notes*: The Pretzels I am referring to are the large ones served at the Oktoberfest etc, not the tiny dessicated party pretzels. Wonderful with a bit of butter. Bavarians love them to have with their beer, and will also have _Weisswurst_, which is a fat whitish boiled sausage with lots of adipose tissue and probably some sawdust in it. :shock:

The dish CC refers to is looooovely - a sort of home-made rustic egg pasta, with a mushroom sauce, which also usually has smoked ham or bacon (or another form of finely sliced meat), cream and herbs in it. Mmmmmmm!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Cordillera Cowboy said:


> ... the video wouldn't load for me. But my experience with reenactors is that they are an aging bunch. Likely not as flexible and agile as the historical folks they are portraying. We used an 1880's manual with success. Well trained horses and actual soldiers, accustomed to military discipline likely made a big difference...


Totally agree. I find I sometimes have to right click on a YouTube video and copy the URL to open in a new tab. Started happening when the website went more secure....:evil:

Watching the video, I kept thinking what an 1870s NCO would say! I expect every other word would be a cuss word! If I was their OIC, I'd have them build a wooden horse and then practice mounting and dismounting from dawn to dusk. Build a fire, and have them practice some more. *They didn't have any issues that couldn't be solved with 4-5,000 mounts! :rofl: *That would be the military way of teaching riding, I think!

Read a story (true). Forget the exact numbers, but these are close: In the 1870s, a handful of Sioux were approaching a fort. A new company, with a lot of new recruits - and most companies then had a lot of new recruits - decided to show off and gallop out to check them. Around 50 raced out at a gallop. 12 fell off, with 2 breaking their legs. The thoughts of the Sioux were not recorded.

I did 2 years at Ft Hood as an Air Liaison Officer. Horrible for my career, but very worthwhile for broadening one's horizons.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

@Cordillera Cowboy I hadn’t ever heard that! That is funny. I’ve never tied hard and fast. I always heard it was dangerous and hard on things.  I assume the people who grow up where they do always hear the same thing in reverse. Lol


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

One old guy I used to ride with had to be at least 85 years old and rode a beartrap 1930's highback western saddle with a 50' rope tied on. He had some crazy stories, but was still alive and had all his fingers. He rode a big ugly jug-headed Hancock roan with a bad temper and a penchant for bucking, and the two of them got along great. There wasn't anything out there he wouldn't rope and that roan couldn't hold. When he moved to Arizona and I lost track of him he was still breaking colts and doing ranch day-work.


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

bsms said:


> Totally agree. I find I sometimes have to right click on a YouTube video and copy the URL to open in a new tab. Started happening when the website went more secure....:evil:
> 
> Watching the video, I kept thinking what an 1870s NCO would say! I expect every other word would be a cuss word! If I was their OIC, I'd have them build a wooden horse and then practice mounting and dismounting from dawn to dusk. Build a fire, and have them practice some more. *They didn't have any issues that couldn't be solved with 4-5,000 mounts! :rofl: *That would be the military way of teaching riding, I think!
> 
> ...



I hear ya. Two years in the horse cavalry was not the best career move I ever made. But I wouldn't trade it for the world. 




I was the vet tech for the platoon. One day, the post veterinarian decided that our horses were anemic. We could have told him otherwise, but he was the vet. He prescribed some vitamin B12 to be put in their evening rations. I did as instructed. The next day during drill, about 8 troopers hit the dirt. The first sergeant made me flush that B12 down the toilet.


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

@SilverMaple Did that old guy let the cows have a 50 foot run before stopping them with the tied on lariat? Or did he dally as needed?


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## Change (Jul 19, 2014)

Years ago, we used to ride up South Mountain (south of Phoenix, AZ). There was a bar there that had a "parking lot" area just for horses. You could drop your reins on the hitching post and go inside for a few beers. The bartender's nickname was "Dally." He was missing a few fingers. 

When I was young and agile, I could dismount just by flinging my off leg up and letting the momentum carry me over the horse to the ground. No stirrups required. Now, much older and not nearly as agile, I usually use the stirrup to ease myself to the ground (which is much farther away and harder than it used to be). I don't have my foot deep in the stirrup, though. Usually just the toe, so I can slip out of it if needed. Of course, I was also taught to never ride with my feet deep - ball of the foot on the stirrup - because if you weren't planning to dismount when the horse thought otherwise, you don't want your feet hung up.


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## charrorider (Sep 23, 2012)

My feet never went into the stirrup farther than the ball of my feet. But in my old age, I find that putting my feet deeper into the stirrup is easier on the knees. I've also seen some old cowboy pictures where the rider has his foot pretty far into the stirrup.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Cordillera Cowboy said:


> @SilverMaple Did that old guy let the cows have a 50 foot run before stopping them with the tied on lariat? Or did he dally as needed?


He'd rope from about 40 feet away, or if he roped close, he'd slow the roan down or angle him off so he didn't take a huge jerk. It was artful to watch. How he, the roan, the cow, and whatever else was in the way never got in a huge tangle is beyond me.... he said his grandpa lost two fingers roping and dallying, so he decided when he was a kid that dallying wasn't for him. How he never got a leg, arm, neck, etc. in the big loops of rope, I'll never know.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

To expose what a newbie I am, I just learned yesterday the difference between a dally horn and a fast and hard horn.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

@Hondo we are always learning new things! That is the fun of this forum I think. Well, it is always nice to do both. Relate, make friends and enjoy the company of other people who are as crazy about horses as us, but also to see the things people do differently. I don’t know why I knew about tying hard and fast. I guess I just always heard people talk about it. I might have had one friend who did it, because in team roping it is allowed over a certain age...


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

charrorider said:


> ...I've also seen some old cowboy pictures where the rider has his foot pretty far into the stirrup.


Still quite common:








​ 






​ 
https://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding/question-stirrup-position-ball-foot-mid-74556/


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Hondo said:


> To expose what a newbie I am, I just learned yesterday the difference between a dally horn and a fast and hard horn.


I still don't know...........


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

A guy that I ran into on the trail yesterday told me. The big fat horns that are like 3-4 inches across and often have rubber around them are dally horns. The skinny horns are made for tying the rope hard and fast.


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

Hondo said:


> A guy that I ran into on the trail yesterday told me. The big fat horns that are like 3-4 inches across and often have rubber around them are dally horns. The skinny horns are made for tying the rope hard and fast.


I've never actually seen it done, only heard the stories. my understanding was that they don't tie to the horn itself, but to the pommel. Could be different folks tie it differently.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Cordillera Cowboy said:


> I've never actually seen it done, only heard the stories. my understanding was that they don't tie to the horn itself, but to the pommel. Could be different folks tie it differently.


Well, there are lots and lots of real life western working cowboys in the area where I live. And the guy that related the difference between the horns is considered a cowboy's cowboy in Yavapai County Arizona.

The way it came up was a discussion about how the founder of the ranch I'm on died over 100 years ago. He was dragged to death with his lariat hard tied to the saddle horn. He had his knife out and there were cut marks on the rope but his head found a boulder before cutting it in two.

Now he had several hired hands and would fire anybody that hard tied, so the story goes. Too unsafe he claimed.

Now this cowboy said he had seen the founder's saddle and it has a skinny horn that is made for hard tying and is impossible to dally around.

So he was questioning the story surrounding the founder that he never hard tied.

I've never seen a skinny horn around here. They are all large with inner tube rubber wrapped around them for traction on the rope.

Story about this cowboy when working on this ranch: He had a pretty large and wild bull roped and dallied and ran around a large bush with the rope so he could get loose and throw another lasso. The bull pulled the bush out and started started chasing the cowboy. They showed me where it happened when on a roundup. I keep forgetting to find out how the story ended. I suspect the bull finally got wore down and then got roped again. They generally can't run all that far from being out of shape. They don't run from as much stuff as the cows do. They just stand there with their head low and say, "Oh yeah? Bring it on!".

Edit: Another cowboy about my age from Texas that I've become friends with asked, "What's a pommel" when I mentioned the word. After explaining he said, "Oh, you mean a fork". In almost 80 years he'd never heard of a pommel.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

Ya, I really don’t know where a person ties up to. Most people I know dally and won’t embarrass themselves with rubber, but I use it. I say it’s important to practice safe roping, use your rubber. Hahahahaha

I had to edit to add that many events rubber is not allowed. In that case a use a new mule hide.


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

@Hondo yes. I grew up in Virginia, where folks were apt to ride every description of saddle. lots of variations on English styles, McClellans, plantation saddles, and a variety of western ones. Pommel was used generically across the board. 


But my first saddle was a 1920's or 30's A fork. No little hole in the front. if you use a saddle like that, the only place to tie on would be the horn.


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

Photo didn't post.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

The ranch I'm living on no longer ropes or chases cattle and have not for a while. It's just not necessary, at least not here.

There are two corrals complete with wing fences, sorting pens, crowd pens, squeeze chute, etc. They need three as the ranch area covers 28,000 acres.

Most cattle gathers for the last couple of years have been done with helicopters, but prior to that and still sometimes, the gathers are made with the use of Catahoula dogs. The dogs have no herding instincts and are mainly attack dogs bred and trained back East or South for hunting wild hogs.

The dogs will find and attack the cattle whose first defensive line is to gather up in a bunch at which time the dogs are trained to be called off. Otherwise three of those dogs can bring down a full grown bovine and kill it.

Then the drovers sit (or wait) on the cattle until they settle down and the fear diminishes. Then the drovers move slightly into the cattle's safety zone until they begin to move in the desired direction at which time the drover stops or even moves back a little removing pressure from the cattle. Think reward for going where I want you to go.

If for some reason the cattle begin to scatter the dogs are give the command to hold them up and the process is repeated.

This process may take a little longer than half dozen skilled cowboys running and chasing the runaways but one person can bring in a good sized herd alone with just three dogs.

Generally there will be a lead cow develop and the herd will form an almost single line following the lead cow which is usually older and knows the way to the corral is the way to not be attacked by the dogs any more.

I have not used the dogs myself but have just ridden with others that are using the dogs. There is very little trotting using this method. Just for one now and then trying to break out of the herd where a slight bit of pressure needs to be put on that wing. Galloping is rare as that tends to excite the cattle. Mostly just walk out and walk back.

No fuss and no drama and very very safe.

During my first two years here I rode recreationally all over the ranch and the cattle became very gentle just from becoming accustomed to seeing a mounted rider that did not bother them.

Temple Grandin says a bit of fear is used for driving cattle and says a bovine that has no fear has to be led with a rope. I found that to be very very true in my short stint with the three dairy cows I spent considerable time gentling. They almost had to be led out of the milk barn. If I were doing it over, I would give them a treat for leaving and getting the heck out of the stanchion and barn.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

The big mule-wrapped horns are dallied and then the rope left to 'slip' and run. You'll see these in the Charro saddles and in the Great Basin/Vaquero tradition. A traditional Wade saddle will have a mule-wrap and was originally used this way. You'll see them used with a long 60' traditional reata or soft rope, and they are often ridden by the 'big loop' cowboys who are traditionalists in the old Vaquero methods and riding horses in bosals, two-reins or spade bits. The idea here is to let the rope run to slow and stop the roped animal-- jerking is hard on stock, horses, and expensive hand-braided reatas. If you ever get the chance to watch guys work cattle out in a pasture in this tradition, take it. It's an art form. This type of saddle usually has an upright horn-- a slanted horn will not 'run' reliably as you slip the dallies. 











Traditional slick-forked Wade saddle with mule-hide horn wrap.


The rubber-wrapped horn is most common, and used to dally. You technically don't need the wrap, but it helps grab the rope so it holds better, puts less wear on your rope, and enables you to use a shorter rope because you don't have enough rope to let it run. For arena roping and for most cowboy work, this will get the job done, and requires a lot less skill in roping and handling horse, rope, and cattle than the Big Loop cowboys. The rise of cheap, ready-made ropes and arena competition rapidly made this more popular than the time-honored Vaquero methods that took years to train horses and used very expensive, handmade equipment.








Rubber-wrapped roping saddle





Those that tie on tend to either knot the rope around the fork of the saddle, or to the horn itself. I've seen it done with all types of horn. Calf-ropers will traditionally tie on, and some ranch cowboys do, too-- especially if the horse may have to hold the steer while they are dismounted.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Man that rear cinch looks like it's actually there for a purpose!


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-i6mTelLOm4c/TfFxfgkXd_I/AAAAAAAAPiI/MW9Kz0blCt0/s1600/saddle.jpg


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

^ Yep, that's what it's for. And when doing roping, you want it tight. Some of the calf-roping guys will snug it up pretty good since their horses are going to be working about 10 seconds. For general ranch roping and riding, you don't want to be able to fit more than a few flat fingers in it. Any looser than that and it doesn't do you any good and becomes a hazard.


Snugged up tight like that, it equalizes the pressure with the front cinch and keeps the saddle from tipping forward and digging in to the withers and popping up in back.


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

watching some videos of roping cattle on a farm. it's pretty cool! those horses look so into it too! pinning their ears at the little calves like "stop moving!" SO NEAT!


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

^ when I bought my paint mare as an unridden 2 y.o, I was working on a ranch and she was delivered a couple of days before her stall/pen was ready. I put her in the arena alley with a couple of just-weaned calves on the suggestion of the ranch owner as there was a water tank and hay in there. All was well the first day. The second morning, I arrive to find to the calves 'held' at one end of the alley and she would not let them by. She'd pin her ears and sweep and if one got by her she'd take him down the fence and turn him back.... dirty cowy little mare.... she spent the rest of that day in the round pen until her stall was vacated, little stinker....


She made a heck of a team penning/heel horse, though. She loved working cattle better than anything else, and she would unleash and run one down and then stop and stand on a loose rein. You sure couldn't run her in a pasture with cattle, though, as she'd work them ragged. She's the reason I adore Colonel Freckles horses. Just a fabulous mind and work ethic. I wish I hadn't sold her-- she'd have been my once-in-a-lifetime horse, I think. I had her six years and she never put a foot wrong, whether working stock or on a narrow trail. One of my biggest regrets was taking a big offer someone made on her when I needed the cash. I still kick myself for doing it.


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

^ i wonder how they know??? I know it's bred in but it would be interesting to learn about the progression of selective breeding for "cow sense"


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## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

this is amazing! these horses are broke broke broke! they aren't moving a foot without rider instruction but are just as involved and enthralled in the process as the cowboys!


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

So what about the Aussies? They have no saddle horn nor hole in the pommel. But it's my understanding that they have some pretty large herds and some pretty rough country.

So how do they do it?


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

Thanks for the descriptions and photos @Hondo & @SilverMaple . what little roping I've done has been from the ground. In the East, where I grew up, cattle were called up and run through a chute. We didn't have the miles of territory to deal with.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Hondo said:


> So what about the Aussies? They have no saddle horn nor hole in the pommel. But it's my understanding that they have some pretty large herds and some pretty rough country.
> 
> So how do they do it?


The roping tradition came from Spanish Vaqueros who suddenly found themselves in the New World with vast expanses of territory, wild cattle, and nary a fence in sight. Highly-trained horses and a braided rawhide reata already in use to help train horses led to the common sense conclusion of putting a horn on the saddle to have the horse assist working cattle with that self-same reata. One had to be creative when finding a way to work cattle with no fences, hence the rope and its ubiquitousness to the US cowboy culture. The different traditional methods of working stock are fascinating and regional -- some work cattle horseback in parts of Central and South America similarly to how we do, with attaching a rope to the saddle in some way, even when there is no horn. Others use a rope on a stick, some just the stick (pic) and others use various and sundry other methods of stopping and holding cattle, such as bolos that are thrown and wrap around the rear legs of the steer, stopping him. 

Australian stockmen were influenced by the English style, hence the traditional Aussie saddle bearing more of a resemblance to an English saddle than a western saddle, with modifications in the flap length and adding the poleys to make riding over rough country at speed more secure. Cattle were driven by mounted riders often with the help of a stock whip and sometimes a dog, into pens (yards) either built in the bush or at the stations and worked there. I suspect the American-style of saddle and roping has made some inroads into Australia in more modern times as globalization has resulted in international influences throughout all parts of the horse world, but perhaps not. Someone from Australia would have to answer that.


Most ranches and other cattlemen have access to pens, chutes, and squeezes/crushes to assist when large amounts of animals need to be sorted, worked, or vetted, but you will still see many ranches who doctor and check cattle on horseback with a rope. If you need to get one cow down to doctor an injury or catch a calf to give a penicillin shot, it's a lot easier and less stressful on the stock to do that in the pasture or range than it is taking the whole herd to the pens. One or two people mounted on good horses can cover a lot of country and check and doctor a lot of cattle in a day in a very low-stress way for the cattle. Arena roping is a far cry from ranch roping, where you'll often see all but the most belligerent of animals roped, thrown, tied, doctored, and released all without getting out of a trot, if that. A good stockman will put the least amount of stress on the cattle and horses as possible. Galloping and throwing one suddenly is stressful, and most ranch hands won't last long if they do it outside of arena competition unless it really is the only option. It's one of the highest honors as a cattleman to be asked to rope and drag calves at a branding. Only the most experienced and best-mounted hands will be asked to do it in order to keep stress to the animals as low as possible. Done well, it's easy, smooth, quicker, and less stressful to calves and mamas than working them through a chute system.


Many ranches have dispensed with horses entirely and work cattle with helicopters, trucks, quads/ATVs and the like, but on most ranches, you will still find a few horses. Even those who had gone away from them often come back-- there are some tasks that are just easier, more economical, and faster to do mounted than not. Doctoring cattle is one of them.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

When we had cattle, we rounded them up with a feed bucket.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Depends on the terrain some I suppose. There are 350-400 head of mamas here on 28,000 acres. To doctor one cow in the field, three Catahoula dogs would need to be used and it would need to be cool enough for the dogs to work. In July through September and sometimes part of June that would mean doing it by moonlight.

These cattle are wild and don't see a human for many days on a stretch. Maybe a year or more for some. So it is impossible to just walk up to them and rope one. They would have to be chased down with a really really good horse that knew the terrain. Dangerous and hard on the cow and horse.

But using the dogs, they can be ridden up to at a walk easily. But the dogs can only be used in cooler temperatures. And once the dogs have a good herd rounded up and holding in place, it is normally no more than 3 miles max to one of the corrals. So it's a 1 1/2 hour leisurely walk to the corral where they can all be ran through the chute for quick close inspection. Spray the ears for ticks, check teeth, etc. I'd say no more than 5 minutes max per cow.

It just wouldn't make sense to gather a group to doctor one when there are always some weaned calves that need branding before some neighbor does it first. And there are always some that are ready to go to town.

This is rugged country and often when a cow spots a rider or riders they will all head for the back 40, or 400. No way on horses without a lot lot of running. The dogs head out and group them up in short order and hold them until the riders get there.

When I was a kid we had usually 10 milk cows and I drove them in on foot morning and night.

So yeah, it's regional for certain.

Here's an interesting read if you're into roping about wild cow catchers. Now these guys ROPE!

https://www.westernhorseman.com/article/ride-west/2959-wildcowcatchers


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

One of our neighbors when I was a kid had a 40-acre pasture with a piddly saggy barbed wire fence, but it had held his seasonal herd of placid steers for years with no issue. He'd buy some calves in the spring, run them on pasture until fall, then sell them so he didn't have to feed them through the winter. 

One year cattle prices were on the high side and the grass wasn't great, so he had the bright idea to get a truckload of wild Texas correinte-cross cattle that were cheaper than the locally-available Angus/Hereford/similar type and would gain weight on less feed. The corriente's were in demand as roping steers, so he figured this was a no-lose situation. So one evening, a cattle truck pulls up to the loading chute and down the ramp come these scrawny, rangy, wild cattle. They took one look at us and scattered like pool balls, racing across that pasture full of grass and jumping the fence like deer, going about 30 different directions. This was all before the truck had even left... 

Those cattle were WILD. You couldn't get near them on foot or with an ATV, and a rider had to be well-mounted to catch them. They wouldn't stay bunched in a herd or settle if you left them alone. The local team ropers had a heyday catching those cattle from all over the countryside on the following days. Mom let my brother and I miss school to help one day, and we wore out three horses and the ATV was never the same, and we caught only 3. Nobody else was having much better luck. My dad chased a couple into a pipe horse corral with 6' panels and the steers jumped it like deer and kited off across the alfalfa field, and that was that. The cattle sent stock dogs flying and farmers behind pickups to avoid being trampled. They were caught 2-3 at a time, snubbed to trees or posts, then pulled onto stock trailers with a good horse. Pains in the rump all around. As they were caught, we ran them into a solid-walled machine shed because no fence would hold them.

Within a week, those cattle were back on a truck headed for auction. I don't think he ever found 4 or 5 of them. A couple of weeks later, some Black Baldy calves turned up in the pasture and no more mention was made of the wild cattle again. It was fun, but I'm pretty sure he took a lot of ribbing about the 'wild cattle endeavor' for years....


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

SilverMaple said:


> One of our neighbors when I was a kid had a 40-acre pasture with a piddly saggy barbed wire fence, but it had held his seasonal herd of placid steers for years with no issue. He'd buy some calves in the spring, run them on pasture until fall, then sell them so he didn't have to feed them through the winter.
> 
> One year cattle prices were on the high side and the grass wasn't great, so he had the bright idea to get a truckload of wild Texas correinte-cross cattle that were cheaper than the locally-available Angus/Hereford/similar type and would gain weight on less feed. The corriente's were in demand as roping steers, so he figured this was a no-lose situation. So one evening, a cattle truck pulls up to the loading chute and down the ramp come these scrawny, rangy, wild cattle. They took one look at us and scattered like pool balls, racing across that pasture full of grass and jumping the fence like deer, going about 30 different directions. This was all before the truck had even left...
> 
> ...


When we lived in Tucson there was a bunch of wild Mexican Corrientes roaming the area where we lived. I can vouch for no fence holding them in or out! They loved alfalfa though and would follow me through fire if I'd take a flake and just lead them back out off the property. Then I'd go fix the fence. Next day, rinse and repeat. 

And they will wear your horses plumb out. I took a lot of teasing for riding my "little Ay-rabs" from the wannabe cowboys. One day a guy I worked with at the Sheriff's Department, who ribbed me pretty darn good most of the time, called me up He leased BLM land up in Death Valley and needed to round up some of his Corrientes. He said, very humbly, "Ms. Pat, could load up 3 or 4 of them cute little Ay-rabs you have and come up here to help me round up these damned cattle? My horse done give out and my dog's so embarrassed he won't even look at me.". We loaded up the Ay-rabs and took my Jump saddle and we went on up there to Death Valley. Now mind you, the closest I had come to cows at that time was when I tried to ride my Aunt's yearling bull and she nearly whipped me half to death. Well, old Danny and I went out to gather those cattle, he was full of doubts, never heard of anyone gathering cattle on a English saddle and figured I'd probably get myself killed. We worked pretty hard until noon and took an hour break and then went back at it. We got those cows doctored and branded and from then on, he was my staunchest defender. Never did use the 2nd pair of horses I took up there, the first 2 still had lots of go in them at the end of the day. He ended up buying 6 horses from me. LOL! That turned out to be a pretty darn good day. I don't know if I'd choose to run cattle out in Death Valley on my own, it was hotter than the hinges up there.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Good stories all! I got a good visual of the wild cows and a scraggly barb wire fence. I've seen cows go right through a tight 6 strand fence. Heck, Dragon a Foxtrotter I had in here for a while, broke the top wire on a 6 strand when he went over it, and then scrambled to his feet and away he went. All cuts are healed and no longer visible. That was part of the Flysheet Fiasco one year ago.

Some bulls can flat foot over a 6 foot panel.

They tell me of the time that somebody here got the bright idea to import some Mexican wild cattle. They were all sold as they were rounded up over some period of time. They showed me some of the vertical bluffs they would go down. Unbelievable.

NO THANKS. Hondo and I will be happy to stick to perambulation.


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

Celeste said:


> When we had cattle, we rounded them up with a feed bucket.


Pretty much how we do it here. If they see the bucket, they'll come running. We feed them every afternoon at about the same time, so they come to the cowshed on their own at that time. We also blow a police whistle when we feed. If we need them and they are out of sight, or if one gets out of the fence, we blow the whistle and they follow us. 


Not that there haven't been some adventures.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Our neighbor to the East has only around 40 head. She can go out on her Mule (Kawasaki Mule) with alfalfa in the back and gather almost anything any time. She's 86 YO.

The ranch I'm on has began bringing the weaned calves in to a field by the main house and feeding them by hand for 6 weeks or so plus riding around through them on a horse ever so often. It has made a world of difference when a gather comes along. Plus anything that is very wild is sold early.

Even so, they lose a lot of gentle after not seeing anybody for 6 months or so. But it still helps a lot.

I've learned a lot in the last four years and am still learning.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Trooper's sire was a fire-breathing 1/2 Arab, 1/2 Appy dragon. 800 lbs. 14.2 hands. He hated to be ridden and would bite and kick. One day, with no other horse to use, my friend took the stallion out to work some cattle who had escaped catching for several years. They were the kind of steers who would fight back instead of run.

The stallion LOVED it! He quickly figured out what was wanted. Then he took personal offense at any steer who didn't comply. My friend described having a death grip on the horn, hanging on for dear life, as the stallion spun 180, kicked with both legs a couple times, spun another 180 and attacked the steer with his teeth. Talking about "riding dangerously", my friend said he knew if he came off, both steer and horse would trample him into the dirt, all alone and 20 miles from the nearest road.

But the stallion viewed it as great fun. He began LOOKING for the steers just so he could beat up on them. Hunting them, even. It was a turning point. The stallion hated people, but if a rider made it possible for him to go have fun like that! - well, then a rider wasn't so bad! He also viewed being ridden 50 miles a day as good fun. His picture is on the wall of the dining room, with a wreath made from his mane around it. He's been dead for years (Trooper is 19 now!) and my friend says he'll never toss a leg over a finer horse. The first time I asked him about the picture, he said, "_I've already ridden the finest horse I'll ever meet and already owned the finest dog I'll ever own. If it wasn't for grandkids, my life would be all downhill from here!_" :rofl:

Trooper? He got 100% of his personality from his purebred Arabian mom, who was 100% mellow. Heck, my daughter says Trooper dislikes me because I'm "too loud". Me? TOO *LOUD!*? Don't know what she means.  But Trooper has earned his keep for years as a horse you put small kids on without worrying. There is more than one way to be a great horse!


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I don't think the Aussies rope cattle. 






I think that being in that ute could be considered riding dangerously!


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Another one - a bit longer. I think that it shows the Aussies are not only tough but also nuts!


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I don't think hey are any saner in NZ either!


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

When my daddy was a little boy (starting around age 7) it was his job to walk out to the pasture and catch the family milk cow and bring her in to be milked. The walk was long for a little guy, so he started climbing on her back and riding her back to the barn. He rode that cow every day for years. He never even thought about that riding a cow bareback with a halter, no helmet, no shoes, just a little farm boy in overalls, could be dangerous. She must have been a nice animal. Times have changed............


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Watching those Australian videos reminded me of that I heard on a ranch once: "_I get paid by the pound, and you're burning dollar bills!_"


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Celeste said:


> When my daddy was a little boy (starting around age 7) it was his job to walk out to the pasture and catch the family milk cow and bring her in to be milked. The walk was long for a little guy, so he started climbing on her back and riding her back to the barn. He rode that cow every day for years. He never even thought about that riding a cow bareback with a halter, no helmet, no shoes, just a little farm boy in overalls, could be dangerous. She must have been a nice animal. Times have changed............



There's a big difference between a gentle family milk cow and wild range cattle  We had a couple of Jersey cows when I was a kid. They were the nicest, most docile animals you'd ever want. Treat them kindly, and they'd do anything you asked. I wouldn't mind having one again, but we have no need for that much milk!


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Speaking of herding cattle with a motorcycle.............

Three years ago there was a small group of cattle in Hondo's field and I decided to see if I could get them to the barn/corral 1 1/2 miles away. Didn't lose a one. They were fairly gentle. The original video was 56 minutes. I tried to cut it to 5 but only made it to 8 minutes.

It was a lot easier when Hondo and I did it.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Hondo said:


> Speaking of herding cattle with a motorcycle.............
> 
> Three years ago there was a small group of cattle in Hondo's field and I decided to see if I could get them to the barn/corral 1 1/2 miles away. Didn't lose a one. They were fairly gentle. The original video was 56 minutes. I tried to cut it to 5 but only made it to 8 minutes.
> 
> ...



I just read through this whole thread and there is a lot to comment on BUT @*Hondo* I am impressed with your ability to gather and push cattle on a bike. I only watched the first 1.40..minutes.

Most people push and keep pushing, numbing them and shrinking the bubble. You set back when they were moving and only pushed when they needed a push whether it be by riding close or using the throttle to make noise. Good job!


The worst cattle in the world are cattle who've been motor biked incorrectly. There is a few places I won't go to work because of it.
We have used dirt bikes quite a bit when the country is too, big, too many cattle and a short handed crew. It can definitely save your horse if used right!


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Dallying vs. Tying off is one of those debates that no matter what gets hashed out constantly. It really depends on the country and the cattle. I started out roping with dallying on rubber. When I started roping on a bigger and slick horn I used to panic at the sliding rope and not stopping at a turn and a half! LOL! It took me a long time to learn how to let the rope slip through my hands and around my horn and take more turns to lock it down. Even to this day if I havent roped for a long time Ill panic the first time. It amazes me how those old habits are so ingrained.



I watched my husband on several occasions riding a counterfeit horse who liked to run off after roping something; dally, throw the slack to the opposite side of the neck, sit on his coils and let stuff come tight to teach the horse a lesson. I never had the balls to do it nor tie off fast and hard. When I was calving out first calf heifers and tagging by myself, I wouldn't tie off, Id take a few wraps and bring my coils with me to the calf and the ground so if things went wrong everyone wouldn't get in too big of a wreck.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

Your husband rocks @COWCHICK77! I think mine would do that too. He always talks about using the cow for that, but I’m like heck no. I’m also like heck no to go without rubber if I don’t have to. I will at competition of course, but I also wet my hide and it feels the same.

I got so irritated with my brother-in-law this year. He was being a jerk about my rubber branding, and not because I didn’t slide slack either, just on principle. Anyways he took a knife to my rubber and I was mad! Lol


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

SilverMaple said:


> There's a big difference between a gentle family milk cow and wild range cattle  We had a couple of Jersey cows when I was a kid. They were the nicest, most docile animals you'd ever want. Treat them kindly, and they'd do anything you asked. I wouldn't mind having one again, but we have no need for that much milk!


So here's what you do. Leave her calf on her, and when you need milk, lock the calf away overnight next to its mother, or just for a couple of hours in the daytime (better when the calf is young and needs frequent top-ups). Milk out what you want in the morning and re-combine cow and calf. That way you'll just be a little twin to the calf in milk demand, and the calf won't be deprived of milk or its mother (cow makes more milk on extra demand, just feed properly). And when you want to go away for a weekend, no worries - cow and calf will manage the milk situation. ;-)

Nothing like lovely milk from your own cow. We're almost at the point where we can look at doing that now!


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Hondo said:


> Speaking of herding cattle with a motorcycle.............
> 
> It was a lot easier when Hondo and I did it.


When Brett and I have to take cattle to the neighbour's yards along the sealed public road, we use our bicycles to drove them - works fine!  My horse would be easier, but I'm not taking him on the sealed public road with maniac drivers not slowing down from the 110km/h speed limit because they have no courtesy nor commonsense. :angrily_smileys:


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Knave said:


> Anyways he took a knife to my rubber and I was mad! Lol


 Maybe someone needs to take a knife to _his_ rubber! :wink: :hide: :winetime:




.. @*Knave* and all the other skilled cowpersons around here: Brett just said that when he hears the word _dallying_, he thinks it sounds like something you would do with a beautiful woman in a secluded glade with a picnic blanket, some pillows, maybe a nice drink in a cooler, no horses required... (I  this man and his _ideas_!)


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

COWCHICK77 said:


> You set back when they were moving and only pushed when they needed a push whether it be by riding close or using the throttle to make noise. Good job!


Thanks. But that was from doing around 2-3 small roundups per week for a year with a 60 YO that was born on the ranch. I had long learned that the punishment for pushing the cattle too hard was a scattered herd and a bunch of work getting them back together. Try for single file and keep them there.

That bunch had been around me enough there wasn't enough fear to even get them to move sometimes.

The ranch is 28k acres of really rough stuff where I wouldn't be taking a motorcycle.

@SueC Over here they call that share milking. Very typical for a family cow.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

Random off topic jump, but @SueC I just claimed my own little heifer for milking a couple weeks ago! I am super excited. I milked goats up until this year and my husband finally said I could get a cow!!


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Knave said:


> Your husband rocks @COWCHICK77! I think mine would do that too. He always talks about using the cow for that, but I’m like heck no. I’m also like heck no to go without rubber if I don’t have to. I will at competition of course, but I also wet my hide and it feels the same.
> 
> I got so irritated with my brother-in-law this year. He was being a jerk about my rubber branding, and not because I didn’t slide slack either, just on principle. Anyways he took a knife to my rubber and I was mad! Lol


I'm sure your hubby would too! Lol!
Like I said, I'm too chicken to do that stuff especially after my last big wreck.

If you're sliding rope and not choking down or breaking wind pipes who cares! I'd be ****ed too!



Hondo said:


> Thanks. But that was from doing around 2-3 small roundups per week for a year with a 60 YO that was born on the ranch. I had long learned that the punishment for pushing the cattle too hard was a scattered herd and a bunch of work getting them back together. Try for single file and keep them there.
> 
> That bunch had been around me enough there wasn't enough fear to even get them to move sometimes.
> 
> ...


Exactly. Stringing cattle out makes for a faster, smoother move. It gives them a chance to mother up if they've lost their calf and less chance of a massive ring back of calves. It's a hard thing for some to realize, moving cattle from the back is like pushing a chain.

You said the cattle in the video were gentle so it does make it harder on a bike to get the results you want but you still did it right by hitting and quitting.(from what I learned) Worked with what you had.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

thecolorcoal said:


> ^ i wonder how they know??? I know it's bred in but it would be interesting to learn about the progression of selective breeding for "cow sense"


The instinct seems to be there even in some non-cow horses. Sunsmart is a French Trotter/American Standardbred mix and started his life in harness before I obtained him and re-educated him to saddle when he was 11. That was also the year he was gelded, as the horse had been kept solitary since weaning and I wanted him to be able to run socially with a herd. He'd never seen cattle when I started saddle training him and first thought they were big monsters from outerspace and definitely carnivorous. The productions he would put on in early days when he saw a dreaded cow! So I stuck him in a paddock next to a mob of cows, and continued riding him past cows on trails. Old hat eventually.

Then we bought our own small farm and moved him to it, along with a couple of other horses. We also keep a few cows. This was a film we got quite by accident within the first month of Sunsmart being on our farm, in late 2010, when he was first sharing paddock space with them. I'd say being a late-cut stallion has something to do with his antics here too!


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

SilverMaple said:


> Australian stockmen were influenced by the English style, hence the traditional Aussie saddle bearing more of a resemblance to an English saddle than a western saddle, with modifications in the flap length and adding the poleys to make riding over rough country at speed more secure. Cattle were driven by mounted riders often with the help of a stock whip and sometimes a dog, into pens (yards) either built in the bush or at the stations and worked there. I suspect the American-style of saddle and roping has made some inroads into Australia in more modern times as globalization has resulted in international influences throughout all parts of the horse world, but perhaps not. Someone from Australia would have to answer that.


I don't live in the Australian rangelands and can't speak for them, but in the temperate parts of Australia, cattle live in fenced paddocks and are driven along fenced raceways into yards, these days mostly using those little four-wheelers. By the way, the Australian term for chute is "cattle crush". When we hear "chute" we sort of think of gravity-assisted industrial equipment:










- although my husband, when I asked him what is the first thing he thinks of when he hears the word _chute_, said "Star Wars"! :shrug:

When you lot hear "cattle crush" you probably have visions of an automatic walk-in mincer or something! You know, like those car crushing things:






That idea was developed further in _Wallace & Gromit_:










Isn't language, and what it does to us, fun! 

Anyway, from what I've seen of the rangelands, cattle are collected by helicopter and horse, and I've never seen roping involved. Having said that, I just found this photo:










The famous Australian drovers just drove cattle long distances along stock routes to the markets, before the semi-trailer took over for cattle transport. There's a little of it left - Wikipedia has an entry on it here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drover_(Australian)

PS: Loved that post, @SilverMaple - thanks for educating me!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

A lot of Australian saddles are now functionally western saddles.

https://jamessaddlery.com.au/information/flex-fit-halfbreed/

www.southerncrosssaddlery.com.au - Half Breed Saddles

https://www.ozsaddle.com/toowoomba-saddlery-products.php?CID=1&SCID=3


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

@bsms When you say functionally western, are you saying they are capable of dallying an 1800 lb bull? Or just that they may have saddle horns.

Probably differences of opinion, or not, but my idea of a truly western saddle is a fully functional roping saddle as that's where the western saddle came from.

@SueC A cattle chute over here is simply a narrow passage for cattle, normally for loading into a truck or trailer. A squeeze chute is the same as a crush.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Ah! Well, we call the narrow passageway a _race_, and any angled-up bits of that for loading the _loading ramp_. Interesting that _chute_ is the French word for fall!


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

bsms said:


> A lot of Australian saddles are now functionally western saddles.
> 
> https://jamessaddlery.com.au/information/flex-fit-halfbreed/
> 
> ...


Those are known as 'half-breeds' and I suspect they came about primarily because a lot of the traditional Aussie saddles didn't work well on American-style stock horses--- they work a lot better on a narrower horse with some withers (think TB type) than they do the short, stout, low-withered propane-tank-with-legs Quarter Horse / old-style Morgan / Halfinger / Fjord / Gypsy / MFT / Mustang / draft cross-type animal so many people now ride. And since you have panels, you might as well put fenders on to protect the leg from sweat, too. Voila! Western-type saddle. I looked into them, and they tend to appeal to trail riders and people who want a western-style saddle with panels without all the weight the traditional western tree adds to the package. A good wood western saddle tree with a rawhide wrap suitable for ranch work will weigh at LEAST 50 pounds rigged. Probably more. A good, well-cushioned pad to spread that weight and take a jerk if roping will add another 7-10. If you aren't roping, the horn is primarily something to hang a camera bag on, and get your bra or jacket snagged on when dismounting, so dispensing with it for western proclivities that have nothing to do with roping a steer or ponying a horse dallied off makes sense. The half-breeds are comfortable, more secure than a regular western trail/pleasure saddle due to the poleys, and lighter. If you prefer the western look, this is a good option. However, if you don't want a western saddle because your horse has a very short back, or he's a narrower build than most stock horses, you aren't going to have much luck with the half-breeds, either. 

The horns on the more traditional-type Australian saddle are basically there because some riders, especially Americans, seem to like having one. They aren't built into the tree, and will pop off if you do much more with than than use it to help mount or hang your bridle on it at lunch breaks. They're basically screwed onto the tree as an afterthought. Try to rope or dally off with one, and you'll not have much luck other than ripping your saddle apart, although the same can be said for most western saddles not designed for roping.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Hondo said:


> ...When you say functionally western, are you saying they are capable of dallying an 1800 lb bull...my idea of a truly western saddle is a fully functional roping saddle...


I disagree. My Abetta is a "western" saddle - western saddle tree being my primary consideration. My Circle Y & Clinton Anderson (made by Martin) saddles are not meant for roping either, but they obviously fit in the "western" category. Tree, ground seat, swinging fenders. I have a horn on my Australian-copy, but it isn't a western saddle. It obviously has English roots, with some modifications.

I doubt 1 western rider out of 100 has ever dallied an 1800 bull. My SouthernTrails saddle is built for roping, but I'll never rope. No cattle. Don't think that makes me an English rider, or any other non-western rider.

Honestly, I view how one uses the reins as a bigger indicator of English versus Western. But once you look at saddles, I think the tree is the biggest factor.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

SilverMaple said:


> Those are known as 'half-breeds' and I suspect they came about primarily because a lot of the traditional Aussie saddles didn't work well on American-style stock horses...
> 
> ...A good wood western saddle tree with a rawhide wrap suitable for ranch work will weigh at LEAST 50 pounds rigged. Probably more...


As long as I'm disagreeing...

Lots of Australians are using the half-breeds. James Saddles and Toowoomba almost exclusively from what I can tell. Based on pictures, at least, a lot of campdrafters use them. I suspect for the same reason a lot of folks use western saddles - the saddle tree distributes weight well, padding is external (so easy to swap out) and fenders give a stable stirrup and some leg protection.

My only roping quality saddle weighs 32 lbs with rear cinch. It runs 5-7 lbs more than it would if it was NOT roping quality because the tree/horn has to be much stronger. Kevin (SouthernTrails) used to be a moderator here. I spent a lot of time talking to him about the saddle. He gave me the option of having it built for roping or not, and gave that as the weight cost. My Circle Y & Martin both weight 25 lbs and are NOT good for roping. FWIW, if I had to do it over, I'd opt for the lighter-built saddle. 5-7 lbs doesn't sound like a lot, but it sure FEELS like a lot!

Mine is a little lighter than normal because it is shorter than normal. They trimmed the skirts to be 1" shorter than normal because it was going on Mia. I've never used the rear cinch, but if Kevin said it was built to be roped off of, I believe him. Great guy. And mine was built on Semi-QH bars, with a narrow than normal gullet, to fit Mia.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

@bsms I think there may be a little semantics going on here. To a roper, many saddles that are called western saddles are just "western style" saddles.

I have a Barefoot treeless saddle they call their western saddle. It has a square skirt and a horn in the plastic pommel that is housed inside a zippered compartment.

I'm not a roper, but to me it is still very much ONLY a western exterior style. No more. 

Some might argue that a rigid wooden tree of the western saddle design determines a western tree. Semantics again. A McClellan saddle would not be correctly called a western saddle in my own personal vocabulary. And neither would many other western style saddles with a western style tree.

@SueC I've heard loading chutes and loading ramps used almost interchangeably although ramps is probably more correct when loading into a higher truck. Might even be a loading chute ramp. Most trailers nowadays are low enough for the cattle to step up into.

I believe I seen the term "race" used with the design of some cattle handling facilities.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Hondo said:


> ...I think there may be a little semantics going on here. To a roper, many saddles that are called western saddles are just "western style" saddles...


Lots of saddle makers or buyers will say they want a "roping saddle", but I've never heard of someone saying they want a western looking saddle. Lots of barrel racers and trail riders would be surprised to find out they aren't using a western saddle just because it isn't built for roping!

A McClellan is a western saddle, or at least far more western than English. And they were in common use in the Old West. The cavalry certainly rode across large parts of the Old West using them. Solid wood tree, deep seat, padding external to the saddle - "western saddle features".

When I had my semi-custom saddle made, the only difference between the roping-version and the non-roping version was the strength of the tree. The tree was double-wrapped with fiberglass and rawhide, or just fiberglass. The non-roping version had the same horn - not all do, but these did. The extra weight and expense came from making the tree strong enough to handle roping.

Roping horns can be metal and screwed in, but they require extra wood to do so:

"_The base of a wood post horn is closer to the horse so there is less leverage when roping. Why? Because the gullet is thinner than with a metal horn since you don’t need the extra thickness for the screws holding the horn to the fork – 1 ¼” thick compared to 2 1/8” for a metal horn fork on our trees. This means the base of the horn is 7/8” closer to the horse with the same clearance_."

The Basics on Horns

My saddles all have horns. I like them. Suppose a horse spooks like this one:








The rider was approaching cattle on a horse who was afraid of cattle. If the rider had kept one hand on the horn, then WHEN his horse spooked, he (or she) could brace against the horn, keeping the shoulders over the hips. Had the rider done that, the body wouldn't have slammed forward as the horse spun out from underneath, thus the legs would not have fallen back, the shoulders would stay laterally over the hips and the horse's back - and it would be easy to stay on the horse.

Mia did it so often I got used to riding with one hand resting on the horn. Some folks would say that means I suck as a rider. Oh well. It kept me on so well that I wouldn't even hit the poleys of my Aussie-style saddle. Approaching a large moving van with people shifting things inside it - making hungry stomach growls, as far as Mia was concerned. But I kept some slack in the reins to give her freedom, was hunkered down with a hand on my non-roping horn...if the saddle held, I would. And Mia eventually danced past the moving van on slack reins. Any fall would have been on asphalt. I was confident I could ride her out, and she then felt just confident enough to go past.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

Semantics definitely!!! Lol. I use my saddle, as do others on here, to rope cattle and the like. That doesn’t mean I wouldn’t call a synthetic saddle “western.” There are two categories, western or English, more I can think of like Australian and my trick saddle, but I’m not including those types. 

For people who ride English saddles I’m sure they would call them an English saddle. They have styles too: jumping, dressage, etc. Western saddles are the same. Semantics...

Speaking of such, we call a chute what @SueC said. There are different styles, but they close the animal in at the end. We call a loading ramp a loading ramp. If it isn’t a ramp we call it an alley.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Yes, the half-breeds are found in Australia. But they didn't start being made much in Australia until Australians started importing some breeds other than the traditional stock horse. Put some American Quarter Horse blood in there, and suddenly the paneled saddles made for high-withered horses are sliding around on low-withered, flat backs. So what do we do? Add the saddle panels that work better on those backs, and keep the poleys and features we liked from the Aussie saddle. Considering that the western US and Australia both have a similar tradition of stock work, it only make sense that influences go both ways. 

I wouldn't consider the half-breed as a 'fully functional western saddle' because it ISN'T a western saddle. It has no horn and poleys. That's like saying the old Australian stock saddle was a 'fully functional English saddle.' No, it isn't. It's a stock saddle. It works great for what it is. But you wouldn't want to jump a course of 5' Grand Prix fences in a stock saddle.

Your western saddle weighs less because you had it made smaller to fit your smaller horse. Rig yours with full-sized skirts, a roping rear cinch (wider than usual), a good front cinch (also wider) and a heavy breastcollar and you'd be at 50 pounds. 

This is one of my saddles. It's a custom on a Toots Mansfield tree, and weighs right at 50 pounds rigged, even with the round skirts. Good leather and a rawhide-wrapped quality tree are heavy. This is the lightest one. The other I would not hesitate to rope with weighs 4 pounds more as it has full double skirts and heavier stirrups. That's an arena roper. This one was made for various and sundry ranch work, not hard and fast arena roping. This is the saddle I use 98% of the time as it's comfortable, fits a wide variety of horses well, and the horses like it, even though it's heavy. I like that I can dally a horse off to it, or rope something if I need to, or drag a log out of the trail and it won't come apart. The various and sundry other pleasure/trail/reining saddles all weigh about 10 -15 pounds less, and those sit in the tackroom collecting dust.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

SilverMaple said:


> ...I wouldn't consider the half-breed as a 'fully functional western saddle' because it ISN'T a western saddle. It has no horn and poleys. That's like saying the old Australian stock saddle was a 'fully functional English saddle.' No, it isn't...
> 
> Your western saddle weighs less because you had it made smaller to fit your smaller horse. Rig yours with full-sized skirts, a roping rear cinch (wider than usual), a good front cinch (also wider) and a heavy breastcollar and you'd be at 50 pounds....





bsms said:


> A lot of Australian saddles are now functionally western saddles...


I did NOT say the halfbreed saddles are FULLY functional western saddles. I said they are "functionally western" - they have a solid wooden tree, the padding is external and have swinging fenders. The horse's back feels the tree and the external pad. How it WORKS (functions) on a horse's back is far more western than English. But I never said it was a completely western saddle. Just that it works like one. On the horse. Far more "western" than "English". They will feel more "western" than "English" to both horse and rider. They never need flocking.

No, my saddle would NOT hit 50 lbs. The skirts are an inch shorter. Not a huge weigh savings. the tree is full sized. The front cinch is a mohair roper, and the back cinch is a roping cinch. I MIGHT be able to get it up to 35 lbs, but not to 50!

Martin XT Team Roper? Weighs 31-35 lbs. ( https://www.horsesaddleshop.com/martin-saddlery-xt-team-roper-mr16pfw.html )

Reinsman Team Roper Saddle? 40 lbs. ( https://www.horsesaddleshop.com/reinsman-team-roper-4404.html )

These weight from 35 lbs to 42 lbs. Mine (the bottom) lost a couple of lbs when losing an inch of length (all skirt, same tree size other than SQHB):

Roping Saddles, Roping Saddle, Roper Saddle, Roper Saddles

Didn't say NO roping saddle exceeds 50 lbs, but certainly not ALL roping saddles do. And my main point remains that a saddle doesn't need to be a roping saddle to be a western one.



SilverMaple said:


> Yes, the half-breeds are found in Australia. But they didn't start being made much in Australia until Australians started importing some breeds other than the traditional stock horse...


I'm not an expert on the history of the evolution of the Australian saddle. At some point, Australians noticed western saddles work well, and starting using a variation of them for their own purposes. Has nothing to do with how wide horses are. Western saddles were used for decades on narrow horses. They are used on Arabians. The Navajo I've seen use them, often on smaller, narrow horses. There are still tons of QHs with high withers. And western saddles are made to fit them - just as they were long before the mutton-withered QH became common.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I'm not an expert on anything history wise, but my understanding is that the western saddle evolved for roping purposes. Period. That may be incorrect, but that's my understanding.

Then others made saddles based on similar designs in some areas and called them western.

I have no problem referring to my saddle as a Western Barefoot model. But when i say that, I am not believing it is actually a western saddle.

The general tendency is, I think, to call any saddle with a rigid bar attached to a rigid pommel and cantle a western saddle. Not english so it must be western. Again semantics. To me, western design.

Not a battle to go to the wall over.

YMMV


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Here's a question that anybody that has an opinion can take a shot at.

The 1902 UP (universal pattern) saddle was designed for use by the British Cavalry and is still in use by them today. It is the saddle that the Trooper saddle is patterned after.

The UP has rigid wooden bars rigidly attached to a rigid pommel and cantle.

Is the UP western or english?


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

I would call the UP a military or cavalry saddle. I had one something like you describe and I called it a Trooper's saddle. A very comfortable saddle it was.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Hondo said:


> ...Is the UP western or english?


I would call it neither. It was based on taking a fresh look. Not quite my thing, but I admire it if only because it was a real attempt at building a good saddle from the horse's perspective.







 







​ 
Good discussion here:

Saddles and tack of The New Zealand Mounted Rifles

One of the men he credits for developing it was also the guy whose quote challenged my thoughts on horses:



> ...There is another thing to be considered with regard to the horse's character - it loves to exercise its powers, and it possesses a great spirit of emulation; it likes variety of scene and amusement; and under a rider that understands how to indulge it in all this without overtaxing its powers, will work willingly to the last gasp, which is what entitles it to the name of a noble and generous animal...
> 
> ..Horses don't like to be ennuye, and will rather stick at home than go out to be bored; they like amusement, variety, and society : give them their share of these, but never in a pedantic way, and avoid getting into a groove of any kind, either as to time or place, especially with young animals. - On Seats and Saddles, by Francis Dwyer, Major of Hussars in the Imperial Austrian Service (1868)


For military purposes, having a very easily repaired and very adaptable saddle was important. Meanwhile, the McClellan saddle was arguably western, but its primary achievement was being CHEAP - which both governments of the Civil War cared about, and it was bought in such huge numbers that the Army got rid of horses before it got rid of all its saddles!

I would love to try a UP saddle someday, but I'm happy enough with my Abetta that I'm not likely to BUY a UP saddle soon. Not elegant, and certainly not suitable for roping:








​ 
But it only weighs 16 lbs, the seat and nylon is very grippy - helps for staying on when things get interesting - and its smaller footprint gives it an almost English feel to me. If they had hung the stirrups further forward, I'd never look at another saddle. That big D-ring, though, can catch the fenders and keep one's feet further back than I like.

OTOH, if my horse rolled in it, I'd bet on it still being usable. Provided I wasn't in the saddle when he rolled!

Goof brief summary of western saddle history here:

History of the Western Saddle History

History of the Western Saddle | saddleonline.com

Old West Saddles, Will Ghormley - Maker, Historically Accurate, Quality


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

As you may know, I bought a trooper/up saddle in disheveled shape for $300 on craig's. I searched the entire US and it was the only one.

It is a good brand, a Haggis, but it had one broken bar. Didn't matter as the plan was to make custom bars. The stock bars would never have worked on Hondo. I was actually not real impressed with the UP bars. Then I made a custom pommel for Hondo's wide shoulders.

After I got it put back together and the seat adjusted, it remains the most comfortable saddle I've sat in so far. The hammock seat is hard to beat for comfort.

Other than being a little heavy, particularly since round Hondo needed a breast strap and breeching in the steep stuff, it was great. I still have it and always will. Rimmey has the same back as Hondo and I'm planning on using it as a pack saddle for Rimmey.

The treed/treeless hybrid I'm using requires neither breast strap nor breeching in anything I've ridden so far. And the saddle is lighter to begin with.

My answer would be to call the saddle a UP or Trooper saddle period as it is really neither an english nor western.

I thought about it while musing on what would popularly determine a saddle to be western. The trooper throws out the notion of a rigid tree being western.

So I haven't really came up with a notion of what really determines a western saddle, unless on a purist bent as I've been following decide that a roper only is western and all others are posers.

That'd leave a Trooper a Trooper, a barrel saddle a barrel saddle, etc etc, and a roping saddle a western saddle.

But I'm really just looking at the various notions for fun. Something to keep me home and out of those smelly bars.


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

The three times I've been injured were all because I did something dangerous. 1) As a beginner, I rode a friend's show horse on a trail. She was 20 years old and "kid safe" - but I now realize a "kid safe" show horse in an arena is a different horse on a trail. Fractured my pelvis in 5 places when she bolted back to the barn and stopped suddenly. 2) I tried to pony a naughty horse when I didn't know how to pony correctly. Fortunately only broke a rib. 3) Rode a horse in the pasture when there was another horse loose in the pasture. Just badly bruised from that one.


Other dangerous things I know not to do again: When hacking out alone for the first time on a horse who's not used to going out alone, don't push him past his comfort zone too quickly. Do not ride near houses on the 4th of July. Do not try to mount a nervous horse from the ground when your boots are slippery with mud. Do not ride somebody else's horse that has been stalled for 24 hours straight and fed grain shortly before the ride. Don't ride a mare in heat near a paddock with a stallion in it. 



I'm sure I could think of a lot more dumb things I've done.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Western saddle has a horn 
Types: Roping, barrel, trail, show, pleasure, endurance 

English saddle doesn't have a horn 
Types: Dressage, Jumping, all purpose, racing, endurance 

Treeless saddle doesn't have a hard tree 
Types: western, dressage, endurance

Australian saddle has pulleys 
Types: horned, hornless, hybrid

This is the way I classify the different styles

Riding dangerously can happen in any style


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

AnitaAnne said:


> Western saddle has a horn
> Types: Roping, barrel, trail, show, pleasure, endurance
> 
> English saddle doesn't have a horn
> ...


Ok smartie! , what do you call an endurance saddle without a horn that has a western style wooden tree?


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

bsms said:


> I'm not an expert on the history of the evolution of the Australian saddle. At some point, Australians noticed western saddles work well, and starting using a variation of them for their own purposes. Has nothing to do with how wide horses are. Western saddles were used for decades on narrow horses. They are used on Arabians. The Navajo I've seen use them, often on smaller, narrow horses. There are still tons of QHs with high withers. And western saddles are made to fit them - just as they were long before the mutton-withered QH became common.



Talk to the places that sell the half-breed saddles. Tell them you have a narrow horse or one with high withers. They will tell you to get the traditional serge panels, and that the flat panels are made for 'wide, flat backs'. The half-breed was developed in America by Australian saddle-makers, then made its way to Australia. Western saddles have been used for decades on narrow horses, yes. But compare the trees made in the 50's with the trees made now. It's a lot harder to find a western tree to fit a small, narrow horse now unless you get a vintage saddle. Even the modern SQH saddles will work best on wider horses, withers or no. Unless you are buying a custom tree, you will be hard-pressed to find a saddle that properly fits a 14h narrow horse well in the modern western off-the-rack saddle. Now, make that 14h horse wider, and you'll have plenty to choose from. My 14 hh paint mare requires a FQH bar, and even then, needs a thin pad. My 14 hh narrow Paso doesn't fit ANY of the 50+ western saddles we've tried on him. They are the same height, but she is literally nearly twice as wide as he is. Her build is very typical of the modern quarter horse/paint and I have no issues finding a saddle to fit her. She is the build the half-breed saddles are perfect for, as the narrower serge would perch and roll on her.


If a high-withered QH fits a SQH or QH tree, you're golden. If he has a very wide back AND high withers, you're going to need some luck or a custom. Fortunately, most of the high-withered quarter horse-type are also narrower over the shoulders so it's generally not an issue. The horse my saddle is on in an earlier post had shark-fin withers but was not hard to fit. But he was also near-textbook size for the standard western trees, withers or no.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Hondo said:


> Ok smartie! , what do you call an endurance saddle without a horn that has a western style wooden tree?



An endurance saddle.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Of all saddles the safest and hardest to fall from is the side saddle. Of course, I managed to do so!


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

^ I read somewhere that ladies, especially upper class, nearly always rode with a companion or groom-- not for the usually-assumed reason of help if her horse became unmanageable, but so that there was someone to help her if her horse fell, as ladies in a sidesaddle found it very difficult to kick free in a fall and usually went down with the horse. Makes sense to me.


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

Foxhunter said:


> Of all saddles the safest and hardest to fall from is the side saddle. Of course, I managed to do so!


If I remember correctly wasn't that what you were supposed to do for the occasion? A film shoot, I believe. 


How difficult was it to extricate yourself from the sidesaddle?


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

No, I didn't count the film shot as to actually fall I had to remove the leaping head - the lower pommel - the time I did fall was off a friend's cob. About to write about it in my journal.


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## Caledonian (Nov 27, 2016)

It is very difficult to come off a side-saddle. I was told that in my first lesson and, honestly, I didn’t believe the instructor, as my brain was screaming at me that something was wrong, wrong, wrong with the way I was riding. Years of programming to ride astride I guess.

I was told to ‘lock’ my legs around the horns if I was in trouble and once I moved from push-button types, I realised that there was something in it. When I’d sorted out my position, especially when circling, it felt very secure. Possibly too secure.

A relative of mine had Cleveland Bay horses for carriage driving and one of them could be very difficult. Their daughter chose to ride her side-saddle as she knew that she wouldn’t be able to get her off and, if she decided to bolt, she could anchor herself in the saddle and pull back. Soon quite a few of us rode out side-saddle.

We always had assistants to follow us for mounting as the shorter stirrup, the position of the girth and balance girth, meant that you needed a block or a leg-up and then someone to check the girths for tightness. 

Then of course there was the added extra of the apron covering the legs. It is very difficult to extricate yourself from as it covers legs, horns and is attached under your foot. I can imagine women being dragged down with their horse due to being 'tied' to the saddle.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

SilverMaple said:


> Talk to the places that sell the half-breed saddles. Tell them you have a narrow horse or one with high withers. They will tell you to get the traditional serge panels, and that the flat panels are made for 'wide, flat backs'...
> 
> ...It's a lot harder to find a western tree to fit a small, narrow horse now unless you get a vintage saddle. Even the modern SQH saddles will work best on wider horses, withers or no. Unless you are buying a custom tree, you will be hard-pressed to find a saddle that properly fits a 14h narrow horse well in the modern western off-the-rack saddle...


I've talked a number of times to places like DownUnder discussing fit. I own two Australian saddles and once owned a half-breed one. Unfortunately, the folks at DU are idiots when it comes to saddle fit. I had two of them tell me Australian saddles are supposed to be placed on top of the horse's shoulder blades! They also don't know how to sit in a saddle:






The stirrups on their Australian saddles are no further forward than they were on my Bates - less, if anything:








​ 
Rod Nikkel on on the trees used:

"_While we in North America would probably call it an Australian or Aussie tree, it really should be known as a Western Stock tree, which is what Australian saddle and tree makers call this style. The original Australian Stock saddle has an English style tree with panels underneath it in to be the weight bearing surface. The knee pads are leather, not an integral part of the tree. The Western saddle has a tree with bars composing the main weight bearing surface and different fork styles. The Western Stock saddle is a cross between the Australian Stock saddle and a Western saddle because it has a western style tree with bars in it with an Australian style fork with the knee pads built in._"









Western Stock (Aussie) Trees​
It really is just a western tree with an unusual swell design. If anyone is interested in buying a used but very nice non-roping version with FQHBs, let me know - its spent the last 4+ years in our closet:








​ 
In terms of current western saddles, it is NOT too hard to find a narrow saddle. Steele Saddle Tree has 10 'standard' size trees ( http://www.equi-flex.com/FTTH3.html ). The Semi-QH bars (J) fit Mia. They fit Bandit OK in width, but his back is flatter. Right now, Bandit is using an Abetta which I believe uses something close to the Steele "D". Not a perfect fit, but "good enough" for what we do - which includes lots of walking and rarely over 90 minutes of riding at a time. And Bandit is 15 hands and very narrow - much more so than normal. More like half the width of a typical QH:









​For more demanding riding, I'd use the leather saddle again. I use the Abetta primarily for me. It feels much more English, with a lot more leg contact. It's 16 lbs instead of 30 and has plenty of grip built in - no sheepskin needed to prevent sliding around when things get interesting.
​







​PS:There is a good book written by a lady who rode sidesaddle on a ranch in New Mexico in the early 1900s. She roped and raced horses and didn't feel hindered in her sidesaddle. I can look up the title if anyone is interested. 

PSS: If anyone gets tempted to pad up a too wide saddle, as I did, it qualifies as "riding dangerously". Worked fine...until the day it didn't:

https://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding/my-first-emergency-dismount-mia-while-377705/#post4940497​


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Hondo said:


> Ok smartie! , what do you call an endurance saddle without a horn that has a western style wooden tree?


An Endurance saddle of course! The English language _always_ has exceptions!!! :rofl:


_It has a itty bitty tiny horn one can't see under all the leather _


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Thought some of you might find this interesting. 

Note that all the horses are ridden in a double bridle and the women all wear veils as they did originally. I love tradition! 







Years ago I took my then boss to a Meet with the Quorn. There was a woman at the Meet riding sidesaddle. She was mounted on a beautiful bay horse and she was also beautiful in her looks and turn out. 

As sidesaddle was a thing of the past I expected her to change saddle before they moved off but she didn't. She was also in the first flight as they followed Hounds. 

When we met for changing horses she had a few mus splatters on her apron. These were wiped off and she mounted her second horse looking as perfect as when they left the Meet. 

I was envious!


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## charrorider (Sep 23, 2012)

Foxhunter. If you see a Mexican rodeo, or a charra, you will see the Mexican women riding and performing all their maneuvers in side saddles. And it is my understanding that although it is changing, still a lot (if not most) of the women in Mexico ride side saddles. I'm certain you can find some videos on 'you tube'.


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

Caledonian said:


> It is very difficult to come off a side-saddle. I was told that in my first lesson and, honestly, I didn’t believe the instructor, as my brain was screaming at me that something was wrong, wrong, wrong with the way I was riding. Years of programming to ride astride I guess.
> 
> I was told to ‘lock’ my legs around the horns if I was in trouble and once I moved from push-button types, I realised that there was something in it. When I’d sorted out my position, especially when circling, it felt very secure. Possibly too secure.
> 
> ...



Thanks for that description of the riding apron. I didn't know it was that complicated. My grandmother, born in 1910, described riding to the post office to get mail. She was a mountain woman from Southwest Virginia, and didn't know the correct terminology. She said ''We had to sit crossways, and hook our leg over a horn. We wore a split skirt, with an apron to cover the split.''


My 10 year old sister said, ''Lord, Granny, why didn't you just straddle the horse?''


Granny put her hand to her chest, and said, ''Oh no, honey. Not where anybody could SEE you!"


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## charrorider (Sep 23, 2012)

Cordillera cowboy. Many of the Mexicans I worked with at the ranch considered straddling a saddle to be immodest for a woman. Too suggestive.


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## Caledonian (Nov 27, 2016)

@Cordillera Cowboy - Great story. Your 10 year old sister was very wise and straight to the point. 

I love your Granny’s reaction. Thinking back, the few times that i rode out in public, I wore an apron but didn’t in the arena. I felt half-dressed without it, others didn’t seem to mind having everything on display and happily explained the mechanics of the saddle if they were stopped by passers-by. 

My friend used to say that it looks ungainly without one and it takes away the mystery of how we’re managing to stay on sideways.


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