# I am sick of her neck!



## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Dressage. Don't worry about getting her head right, worry about getting her round from the back end and the head will fall into place.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sarahandlola (Dec 16, 2010)

Ok so how do I get her round from the back? Any exercises or things to do to help? =)


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## Levade (Apr 13, 2011)

What JDI said!!!

But first you need to get rid of that bit! A three ring gag, especially with the reins on the bottom ring, is just asking for that head carriage. You are never going to get a relaxed outline with it! I have yet to see a horse ridden in one of these that doesn't have a neck like hers. Put her in a snaffle for in the arena, where she can't go anywhere, or if she is seriously strong, a double bridle, maybe a pelham but I would always prefer the double. (get an instructor to fit it and show you how to use it) If you do go for a pelham, use two reins!! Do not use roundings, they are horrible things!

Next build up her general fitness so that she has no excuse to argue, do lots of walking down, and trotting up hills. If you give her quite a long rein, hold your hands wide and low, and really conciously relax your whole body, this should encourage her to stretch down. Also carrot stretches twice a day! I normally cba with these, but she is a pretty extreme case :wink:

Normally for this problem I would reccomend lunging her in a bungey until she has enough topline to work on it with a rider, but he problem is not only that she holds her head high, but that she curls it back too! And this makes me think this is a resistance problem (or even fear of the bit), so a bungey may make it worse.

But yes, first step is change to a better bit, see how she goes, and work on everything else after that.


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

Ewe! That's one upside down neck. Yep, dressage will fix all muscle evils. You need to work her from back to front. Ditch all gadgets you might be using. Snaffle bit and reins only. Use bending and suppling exercises to get her to start softening her jaw and poll. At the walk, just do circles and shallow serpentines. This will begin to establish outside rein contact. You'll know she's stretching into contact when she starts to chew gently on the bit. Changing a neck like that will take some time, so be patient. If she starts to brace against the bit, transition down a gait and then back up. If you're at the walk, come to a halt and hold the contact gently until she softens to the bit. The split second she softens, make sure to soften yourself. Don't throw away the contact, just relaxing your elbows will be enough to give her a release. 

While on the subject of relaxing, make sure you're not creating the bracing by bracing yourself. Make sure you elbows and unlocked and following her movement. Check all your body parts for tension while you're warming up. You can't expect her to soften if you're not softening yourself. 

There's a good book for suppling called "Build a Better Athlete". It's 20 or so exercises anyone can do. Good luck.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Dressage - but correct dressage. Not a kids version of 'pull the head down and it looks kind of pretty so now it's dressage'! At the moment, going from the one photo you have provided, she is very much on her forehand and has absolutely no push from her hind legs what so ever. It's understandable that she's going to brace her neck and raise it, in order to stay upright and not fall flat on her face. 

You need firstly to get her forward, really powering along with those hind legs, but using your seat to contain her in an appropriate tempo and rhythm. Multiple transition between and within gaits, changes of rein, changes of bend, work in leg yield on circles and straight lines etc. 
This work, when ridden forwards and softly, will encourage her to 'lift' her back and begin to swing, which is when her head and neck will lower and the base of the neck and poll begins to soften. 
Work on hills will also help you, encourage her to lower the base of her neck and push herself up with hill from her hind legs. This will stretch her topline and begin to strengthen in. 

Until you have forwardness and suppleness, she will not change the shape of her neck.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Levade said:


> Put her in a snaffle for in the arena, where she can't go anywhere, or if she is seriously strong, a double bridle, maybe a pelham but I would always prefer the double. (get an instructor to fit it and show you how to use it) If you do go for a pelham, use two reins!!


 
I would strongly advise a snaffle as I don't think the other bits are suitable for the experience level. 

Sarah your horse has looked like this for a while, I remember the first pics you posted, and while they might not have been quite as bad, they were not far off. I think that maybe what is happening, is that you are learning and seeing more now, which is great. 

You round a horse and get them to work under themselves for forward impulsion. Do not let your horse be lazy or half *** a gait, push them forward into it. 

When you have that, ask for the bend, so work a 20m circle, when you have bend to the inside then take a feel of the horses mouth (meaning you can feel it through the reins.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Hi Sarah,

I wonder did anyone mention that the martingale will be an excellent tool for building the kind of neck that she now has. It teaches a horse to go up til they feel the downward tug of the martingale, then the try to bring their head backward when rein contact is made, rather than downward, as you'd think they would. So along with finding a good snaffle, you would want to not use the martingale, atlease while working at the walk for the training sessions where your goal is bend, relaxation and a neck that reaches forward and downward. you can do a TON of this at the walk only.

She is a tough one. Habits are hard to change. Talke to Sarahver, she has done work with off the track horses to dressage and she is good at explainign things.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> I wonder did anyone mention that the martingale will be an excellent tool for building the kind of neck that she now has. It teaches a horse to go up til they feel the downward tug of the martingale, then the try to bring their head backward when rein contact is made, rather than downward, as you'd think they would.



Hard to tell from the photo, but I think it is a running martingale and not a standing one? In which case a running martingale does not do this.


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## Sarahandlola (Dec 16, 2010)

Thanks everyone! =D forgot to say changed her bit about a week ago to a full cheek snaffle. 

I have lunged her n bungee reins a few times. There were not tight at all but she really bent her neck in them. Maybe I should just keep using them until her neck is better then work on it without them in case she makes her neck even worse? 

All of this she is on the forehand thing is so confusing XD I really do not know the difference. 

Today id I can ride her I will start doing those exercises. But she cannot do leg yield so I will work on that a bit. 

Yep when I got her she was not that bad! She does brace a lot especially when you get off her. But I really do not know what that is..Her back has been checked countless times but a chiropractor and other people. I even felt down t yesterday and she did not move a muscle.. 

I have been hand walking her up the hills in the fields XD They are soooo big and it gets very tiring! This is all I can do until I can find a quiet horse to hack out with. And then we go to the forest which has some nice hills! 

And yes it is a running martingale but I might take it off. 

Thanks for the help guys! The changing of gaits and directions etc every so often might make her less lazy and more forward. Hopefully XD

Yesterday she had a lot of fun because the person riding her was asking her to canter from halt and walk. She got so excited she was ready to go every time. I have never seen her so enthusiastic to work! Will trotting poles help too? I have to do them everyday with her because she forgets how to do them after a few days =/ But she is doing well =)


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

hmmmm, maybe it is just me, but you seem to have a way of changing what you say based on the opinions given.


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## Sarahandlola (Dec 16, 2010)

What did I change exactly? I am very thankful for the help and not making excuses or anything if it seems that way =/ I want her neck to look better so there is no way I would make excuses for it!


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Ditch the gag and get yourself a nice simple snaffle. If she is strong then I wouldn't advise a french link but a simple loose ring, eggbutt, D-ring or full cheek depending on what you have around and how she reacts to each. Unless she is going to hit you in the face by throwing her head up I would ditch the martingale also. If she _does_ throw her head that badly just during flat work then I would suggest that there are other issues going on that need to be addressed first. For the moment I am going to assume that she isn't a chronic head thrower but feel free to correct me if I am wrong in that assumption.

IMO pelhams are the devil and should be melted down and turned into sculpture. Double bridles are for the upper levels of dressage and should never fall into the hands of a green rider or into the mouth of a green horse.

Once you have her fitted in a snaffle I would start with the basics: Bending, flexion, walk-halt and halt-walk transitions. Use your reins to _communicate_, never to argue. Ask for softness, when she gives it to you reward by allowing her to be comfortable on the bit. Spirals in and out on both reins, serpentines. I have been known to spend up to an hour on a green horse just working on walking exercises!

When she is soft at the walk you can begin trot work. Don't worry for _one second_ where her head is, her head position is just a symptom of what the rest of her body is doing. Establish a good rhythym, think in your head 1..2..1..2..1..2 and get her to stick to the rhythym. If she speeds up, half halt her back to your pre-chosen rhythym, if she slows down push her back up tho the pace! This is the easiest concept to understand so work on this first! Down the long side of the arena, up the short side, change direction, do 20m circles, all in the same rhythym. 

Second thing to work on is forward movement - this does not mean go faster! This means that you want to ensure that she is driving from behind rather than running on her forelegs so to speak. Practice your half halts and encourage her to transfer her weight to her hindquarters without losing any impulsion from the gait itself. Similar excercises as at a walk, clear straights and smooth turns. Feel her out during a 20m circle and think of the first two concepts as you go around: "Am I maintaining a rhythym? Is she driving from behind?" If the answer to these questions is yes then keep going! If the answer to either or both is no then rectify and continue!

Still not worried about where her head is or isn't at this stage.

Third thing to work on is straightness. This doesn't mean that you want a straight horse in the classical sense of the word. This means that you want her rear legs to follow her fore legs to follow her ears so to speak, I'll see if I can find a pic to demonstrate... That means that if you are on a straight then you want to be able to draw an imaginary line through the middle of her ears, forelegs and hindlegs and have each side fall equidistant from the line. If you are on a circle then that imaginary line is now a curve of the same proportion as the circle you are on with each ear, forelegs and hind legs falling equidistant from the line. If she drops her shoulder on a circle block it with your hip and keep in in line with the circle. If she swings her hindquarters out then block them with your calf and pop them back so that her bend is maintained and even.

There are a couple of other points on the training scale but I can guarantee you that if you can get her working in a rythym with impulsion and flexing around circles, that head will magically lower and she will soften. That I can promise.

A word of warning: This will take time and patience and if you can possibly get someone on the ground to help give you some pointers then it will be a big help to you and a much more effective way to learn than purely reading alone!

*Off to look for that pic*

Best of luck!!


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

JustDressageIt said:


> Dressage. Don't worry about getting her head right, worry about getting her round from the back end and the head will fall into place.


Well said.



sarahver said:


> IMO pelhams are the devil and should be melted down and turned into sculpture. Double bridles are for the upper levels of dressage and should never fall into the hands of a green rider or into the mouth of a green horse.


There is a difference between a pelham and a double bridle. Just saying.

You are never going to change her conformation either. Though you can do a lot that will make her look better (like has been described already), her conformation is what it is.


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## Sarahandlola (Dec 16, 2010)

Great thanks! I cannot wait to get on her and try all of this XD To be honest she is not strong at all! I took some stupid advice when I first got her. They told me to put her in a three ring then a few months ago when she bolted they put the reins on the third ring. I put her in a full cheek snaffle a week ago. I am glad I have found someone who will not be mean to her or whip her to death if she puts a step wrong. This girl does not even use a whip! =D And she thinks the horse is great XD So I have someone to help me. And she understands about her head position because she has a TB too who has his head in the air...The difference is his neck is perfect =/ 

And nope she does not throw her head around at all! She is actually very good with her head apart from it being so high ! I will take the martingale off tomorrow. 

Problem is I know these people who think they have made the horse 'better' are gonna judge me pretty badly when they see no martingale or three ring bit. They will get greatly offended and have a go at me! The other day they asked me did I ride her and I said no my friend did.. They were so offended I did not ask them to ride her and were going on about how they had fixed the horse so we should thank them etc. It is pretty annoying having to listen to it since all they did was abuse the horse with whips and kicking and pulling etc. Thankfully I do not see them so much now and I always ride the horse before they arrive. I hate saying this because I am friends with their sister but she gets offended too about other people riding the horse =/ Odd situation but I definitely like this girl way better! She is so nice and loves the horse...And she cannot ride her own so she is very happy about having a horse to ride and I am happy to let her. I have not been in the mood to get on her. It is just too warm and makes me very tired! And she is gonna do some jumping with her tomorrow =D I know some of you seen the post I made ages ago of lola jumping. The rider was the one not being very good to her! He never released with his hands and she tucked her neck in a lot. So hopefully she will realise this girl will be nicer with her hands and maybe she will enjoy it more! 

haha sorry about going on...

ETA..Her neck has only become so bad since I got her so I don't think it is because of conformation..But maybe it is...I dunno XD I hope not....


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Alwaysbehind said:


> Well said.
> 
> 
> There is a difference between a pelham and a double bridle. Just saying.


 
???? I know that. The two sentences are expressing two _different_ thoughts in relation to the two different bit combinations :wink:

I have no desire to melt down bit and bradoons. Only pelhams.


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## Sarahandlola (Dec 16, 2010)

Here is a picture a few days after I got her...How I wish her neck looked like that now XD I hated it then...but now..Wow I despise it!


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

sarahver said:


> ???? I know that. The two sentences are expressing two _different_ thoughts in relation to the two different bit combinations :wink:
> 
> I have no desire to melt down bit and bradoons. Only pelhams.


Oh, it looked like one thought.

I have no issues with pelhams. Like ever other bit out there, there is a place for it.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

I understand. Hence I prefaced my bold statement with IMO he he.


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

sarahver said:


> I understand. Hence I prefaced my bold statement with IMO he he.


hey so why do you hate pelhams? i love them when mullen mouthed, and used properly with two reins in the hands of an experienced rider. i find it to be incredibly effective for an extremely soft mouthed/sensitive horse who is also hot hot hot.

curious to hear your thoughts!


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

i'd like to add that i HATE pelhams with a converter - if you are going to ride in a pelham please learn how to use it correctly! bit converters imo just blend the curb and snaffle action and take away the entire point of the double reins.

for double bridles, i think they are excellent for UPPER levels of dressage and agree with sarahver there. while i have seen people jump in them, i feel it's too much and prefer a pelham for jumping/eventing/field hunting.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

CJ82Sky said:


> hey so why do you hate pelhams? i love them when mullen mouthed, *and used properly with two reins in the hands of an experienced rider*. i find it to be incredibly effective for an extremely soft mouthed/sensitive horse who is also hot hot hot.
> 
> curious to hear your thoughts!


My issue is not with the bit itself. My issue is that they are frequently used without the important consideration that you perfectly described in the bolded part above.

In my experience, pelhams are one bit that is frequently mis-used to try and establish a 'head set' which is another one of my pet hates. If I could remove one term from the horse world it would be 'head set'.

Pelhams _can_ be a great bit when used correctly and by an experienced rider. Unfortunately they are commonly used by inexperienced riders for the wrong reasons. There are some bits I believe you should have to sit a test in order to be allowed to use. Of course no such test exists and so when I see them being mis-used I want to burn them :twisted:


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

I would say a kimberwick is used fare more often for a fake headset than a pelham is.

And of course I do not like them with a converter. That totally defeats the purpose of using a pelham. You might as well be using a kimberwick then.



OP, I think you should go back to the bridle set up you had when you bought the horse. A loose ring snaffle sounds like a perfect idea.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Returning to the OP, . .

Sarah, it must be really hard for you, across an ocean, to put into reality all this advice you get from anonymous persons. But, believe me, your horse will pay back huge dividends if you treat her gently, get her into a good bit, drop the martingale and work at the walk putting into effect the things that Sarahver outlined. This program is like what a doctor would proscribe. You do it in doses, good long walking doses. Personally, I would nix the jumping totally for awhile and concentrat only on this "rebitting" of your horse. It's like you are starting all over and not only are you trying to change her way of going, and holding her head, but you are changing her MIND. She is used to "I will stiffen my neck muscles, run through all this as fast as I can and it will be over and I can go back to my paddock". She is never really mentally WITH you and giving up the control of her body to the rider.
When she does give up the control of her body, you may see a whole change in her mental attitude, too. But, to really get this, you don't want to alternate it with stuff where you are asking her to go bonkers, run for broke or go over jumps, all back in the braced attitude of before. 

So, if she were mine, I would work solely on the softening of gthe neck for a bit. If she loves jumping and you can do it on a pretty loose rein and she never gets all bracey and fighting the bit, then ok, but otherwise, you risk erasing the softness that the day before you put into her. IT takes time for this softness to become the normal way for her to go.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

One of the things you can do with this horse to help her a lot is find some long hills nad trot her up those hills letting her drop her head. In the process she will round her back, and build abdominal muscles. From the second picture in the snaffle she is a nice sort but in the photo in the gag bit she is hollowing her back and building an "upside down" neck. 

If you can, get hold of the three small book by Deb Benett, Phd. She has taken standardbred horses and rehabbed them so their necks turn over (what you want to do). 

The point is you want the horse to drive up from behind, lightening the forehand and curling her neck because it is the most confortable thing for her to do when she has her weight off her forehand. This requires her to have strong abdominal muscles so she can relax her back and round it and reach under herself more deeply with her hind legs. 

Lots of transistions in the trot (from normal to extended and back to normal.. and eventually asking for collection). Lots of circles.. spirals.. change of gait and a ton of reward for balanced transitions DOWN from the trot to the walk.

Lots of work ahead of you. Don't know why you are listening at all to the people who want the horse in a gag... do they own her or do you?


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

sarahver and alwaysbehind - agreed. i especially like the pelham when used properly - i like to call my curb my emergency brake for when out field hunting or showing my hot jumper sky. we flat in just a mullen - on purpose so that i know the curb has nothing to do with anything other than exactly that - and e-brake - when he's hot out in the field or amped up in the show ring. can't use it for headset if you don't use it regularly at all 

HATE kimberwickes. we only use one on ONE horse and that's bc he was originally trained western and the stubborn *** loves his kimberwicke bc it's as close to a curb as his owner needs to ride in as she doesn't have the steadiest hands, and he strongly dislikes snaffles... then again this stubborn *** breaks just about every rule i have about horses on a regular basis. however him and his owner jump a MAX of 2' (maybe the have done 2'3" once in 8 years lol) and primarily trail ride/hunter pace so it is what it is lol.


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## Sarahandlola (Dec 16, 2010)

Alwaysbehind said:


> OP, I think you should go back to the bridle set up you had when you bought the horse. A loose ring snaffle sounds like a perfect idea.



I wish I kept her in the loose ring from the start but like I said I took stupid advice. I really did not know anything about bits then. She was perfectly fine is the snaffle as I can now see...

Thanks tinyliny! You are right about the jumping. I don't really want her jumping yet anyways. Maybe some loose schooling once a week to get her back into it but while ridden I will avoid the jumps XD But trotting poles are ok right? 

I really do want her to soften and be more supple..She is so stiff! Especially to the right. I tried stretches with her one day and she had a hard time bringing her neck to the right. She decided to turn the full way around instead of just her neck XD So yes that brings me to carrot stretches..What ones will I do with her? I only know the one where you bring her head down under her? 

On a side note just because I want to tell everyone...I rode a stallion today For a whole two minutes! XD He was awful bold! First time I got on him I had one foot in the stirrup and he took off. Second time he was held while I got up. I made it on but still only one foot in the stirrups and he took off bucking and rearing etc. I jumped off XD Then the third time the instructor person walked around with him and then left me and he was stuck the the fence! There was a pony in the arena beside us. So I was terrified by then. I got off and someone else got on. The second she touched the saddle he took off again and bucked her off. Then he was brought into the other arena with the other pony and he behaved perfectly! What an eeejit! Last time I will go near him! I hope he will be gelded soon =/ I was probably alwaays afraid before I even got on him knowing he was a stallion. But he is a very good behved pony when there is another one around with him..

anyways yes...That is my story for the day..Oh and has Lola was driving him mad yesterday XD They were too stall apart( Standing stalls where they can see each other) She kept peeing and he was neighing like crazy.! But he was very behaved about it and never did anything bad or stupid like break out.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

I couldn't find the diagram I had in my minds eye but I do have links to a great resource that explains many of the terms I was trying to, hope they help:

Half Halt:
The Half Halt

Contact:
Contact

Straightness:
Straightness

Exercises to work on:
Arena Figures and Exercises

Plus plenty more pages on that website I haven't linked to!

And agreed with Elana regarding Dr. Deb Bennet, she is one of my favourite experts in the field of horse biomechanics and really gives great detail in her articles.


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## Sarahandlola (Dec 16, 2010)

Great! I will read these now..I never really knew how to do a half halt..


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Sarahandlola said:


> Great! I will read these now..I never really knew how to do a half halt..


 
Don't worry, it's one of those terms that gets used a lot but doesn't hold a lot of meaning until you _really_ understand it! Enjoy your reading :lol:


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

This horse is just plain over bitted...she has learned to evade the bit by raising her head/neck. I would get rid of the martingale as well, since this only gives her something further to brace against. 

Put her back in a simple snaffle and do TONS of bending exercises...I would start from the ground first, just to ensure that she understands what you are asking for. You will take up a rein, and bring it back by her shoulder (at first you will just take a little slack out of the rein)...wait for her to bring her head and nose back and "give" (put slack back into the rein), then immediately release the rein. Rinse, wash, repeat, over and over and over and over...both sides, and gradually asking for more and more bend as she gets the concept. 

In order to bend laterally, she will have to bring her head and neck down, and in (when she gives properly, that is)., which is why this exercise WILL help your horse...you just have to be committed to doing it alot. Do it on the ground before you ride, and do it when you get on her before you start to ride. When ever you ask for a halt, ask for a couple of bends each side; anytime you think about it, really, ask for some flexing. 

Another thing that could help her, is to get her into the arena, and start doing some 'cruising' exercises; this is where you will basically give her a loose rein, put her into a gait, and just ride her...not interfering with her forward movement unless she slows, or speeds up. If a horse speeds up (and I don't mean trotting faster, I mean breaking from say a walk to a trot, or trot to canter), I will simply take up one rein, put him into a circle until he slows back down to the speed I was asking for, and let him go again. This will help her to start taking responsibility for the gait you put her in; it can also help a horse begin to relax and settle into a gait, since you won't 'stop' until he is relaxed and moving nicely at the pace YOU want. If he wants to trot around quickly, fine, as long as he is trotting, let him be...he will figure it out, that settling down and going at a relaxed pace is what will give him rest if you are consistent in it. Same with the canter...if he is going a little fast, but not breaking into a gallop, don't worry about it...just ride him; let him take responsibility for the gait you put him in, but don't nag him; he'll figure it out. 

Often with the cruising exercises, I will start with the trot, and end with the walk (since he will be ready to relax a little more after trotting and cantering some)...always make sure you go both directions, and remember to stay out of the horse's way as much as you can...


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Sarah, how would you describe your hands when you ride? I know some of the questions you have asked here, but I don't want to assume - would you say they are quiet, or do they jolt when you post? Do you give your horse a heads up before asking for a response or do you just yank?


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

SAL, plain snaffles are cheap-cheap-cheap, you don't have to go all-out, just get a plain single or (better yet) double joint loose ring for less than $20. Ditch the martingale, and start working with a dressage trainer - even once a month is going to be very worth it. You need to learn how to ride back to front, and do NOT worry about the head - it will fall into place when her body becomes correct.


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## Sarahandlola (Dec 16, 2010)

mom2pride said:


> This horse is just plain over bitted...she has learned to evade the bit by raising her head/neck. I would get rid of the martingale as well, since this only gives her something further to brace against.
> 
> Put her back in a simple snaffle and do TONS of bending exercises...I would start from the ground first, just to ensure that she understands what you are asking for. You will take up a rein, and bring it back by her shoulder (at first you will just take a little slack out of the rein)...wait for her to bring her head and nose back and "give" (put slack back into the rein), then immediately release the rein. Rinse, wash, repeat, over and over and over and over...both sides, and gradually asking for more and more bend as she gets the concept.
> 
> ...



Yup I have been told to do lots of trotting on a loose rein. I have been doing it then someone comes along and says my reins are too loose and will not go away until I shorten them! But I will try it again today. And I will be doing lots of bending on the ground and in saddle. 



AlexS said:


> Sarah, how would you describe your hands when you ride? I know some of the questions you have asked here, but I don't want to assume - would you say they are quiet, or do they jolt when you post? Do you give your horse a heads up before asking for a response or do you just yank?


My hands are fairly quiet but I am often worried they move to much. And when slowing down I always do it slowly. Hopefully I can get someone to get a video today so I can see how I am.



JustDressageIt said:


> SAL, plain snaffles are cheap-cheap-cheap, you don't have to go all-out, just get a plain single or (better yet) double joint loose ring for less than $20. Ditch the martingale, and start working with a dressage trainer - even once a month is going to be very worth it. You need to learn how to ride back to front, and do NOT worry about the head - it will fall into place when her body becomes correct.


I had been looking at snaffle bits yesterday. I might get a copper one so maybe she will accept it a bit better. And sadly around here nobody does dressage! It is all showjumping around the town. The trainers I know that come to the yard to give weekly lessons all do showjumping. Unless I look a bit further out. I know there were these college students who came to practice a dressage test so they might know someone. Hmm but saying that there is a new trainer in the yard who is more into flatwork than jumping. I will get some lessons with her. She is so nice it is unreal!


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

A video of your riding her would be greatly beneficial for us to help you with more precise information according to your skill level.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

I cant add anything further then what has already been said




Levade said:


> What JDI said!!!
> 
> But first you need to get rid of that bit! A three ring gag, especially with the reins on the bottom ring, is just asking for that head carriage. You are never going to get a relaxed outline with it! I have yet to see a horse ridden in one of these that doesn't have a neck like hers.


Levade here you go!








That pony is in a 3 ring gag! admittedly the gag is being used properly (with double reins) and the pony being ridden properly or as properly as I could when I couldnt squeeze my backside into a 14 inch saddle and had to jack my knees up to my chin because the pony was only 12.2hh. Pony was only being ridden in the 3 ring because he was getting strong in company and an adult needed to get on him and back him off a bit and remind him not to take hold in the show ring.


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## Sarahandlola (Dec 16, 2010)

Change of plan today! The BO decided it was about time we brought her out onto the road ( It was such a nice, warm day!) So we got a lead horse and three other horses came with us. This was my first time on her on the road and in the forest. Wow I was so amazed at how well behaved she was ! She spooked twice..The first time because the horse behind her spooked and the second time in the forest because she stepped on crunchy leaves XD And she was a bit impatient when we had to wait with two other horses because the other two were jumping. Oh and she would not go throw a big huge puddle the first time but the second she did =D So overall I am soooo happy! And I really could not think of her head and neck etc because I was trying to stay relaxed...

There are hills in the forest and outside so we can work on her topline more now! Woohooo I cannot get over how good she was! Next time we will be cantering through the forest =O How she will react then I do not know! We only walked and trotted today...Oh but of course one bad thing was she kept pulling her head down like she used too!! I dunno if it was the flies or her being impatient but I hope she does not start it again! I cannot buy another new saddle!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Wow! I am so glad you had a nice day hacking out. It sounds like so much fun, I wish I was with you! I went out for a ride yesterday but was all alone, so I rode more conservcatively and felt a bit lonely.

Sounds like you are really keeping an open mind and trying all kinds of things. I bet your head is just swimming. It's called "being alive!"
Cheers!


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

Teaching her to bend laterally will help you keep her head up, without her being able to evade the bit, as well, since you can just take one rein, and give her a little nudge, and get her to pick her head up and bend a bit...

The worst thing you can do with a horse who likes to drop their head like you are describing is try to pull back on both reins to get him to come back up...he will win everytime, especially if he has no desire to keep his head up. 

She could have been 'bored' simply because of all the walk/trot...admittedly, whenever I am on a horse, I am often times trotting much of the way, and cantering in between as well; keeps their brain active, rather than allowing it to 'shut down' and get bored....resulting in fractious behavior that is just a result of him being understimulated. If you "can't" do more than walk/trot, then figure out ways to keep her mind active...do little serpentines, half halts here and there, ask for bend both ways...whatever the trail allows you space for, use it, and keep her mind focused on you, rather than on everything and everyone else around you.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Curious - what does "XD" stand for?


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

Urban Dictionary: XD


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

I had always wondered the same thing myself. I actually just googled <3 the other day to see what it meant. It is supposed to look like a heart on it's side for anyone else that had been mystified.

Glad you had a nice hack out Sarah, nothing better than blowing the cobwebs away on a nice trail ride!


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## RedTree (Jan 20, 2010)

I love reading threads like this, everyones stating what they know and no one is plan out refusing it
haha really enjoyed reading it and like the links you posted Sarahver


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

sarahver said:


> I had always wondered the same thing myself. I actually just googled <3 the other day to see what it meant. It is supposed to look like a heart on it's side for anyone else that had been mystified.


Thank you, Sarah.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

christopher said:


> Urban Dictionary: XD


Groovy, man! Or Gruv...

I like "BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" myself, but subtlety isn't my strong point. 

For the mathematically inclined, that would be BWA(HAx15)(!x28)


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## Sarahandlola (Dec 16, 2010)

So I rode her today for a few minutes just walking and a bit of trotting..then my assistant got on XD Well ya know she wants to help too. And she did some trotting and cantering. And one jump! Her first in ages and she did so well! (The horse)

But of course I got a lot of abuse for changing the horses bit and letting her ride her etc. I will call the girl Jo =P So yeah I let Jo on after those people who think they 'fixed' the horse left. I knew if I let her on while they were there they would annoy me and her. They are already saying to her she is ruining the horse..So they are gone but their friend is still there...And she starts taking pictures of Jo on Lola!! What the heck?!? She was obviously telling them!! Grrr ! No peace at all! 


So yeah I go some pictures and a little video today. 

Oh and one more thing..Jo tells me the horse is not happy with the bit at all! I have tried single jointed, double jointed and french link! What else is there to try? Straight bar? I really do not know what to do! She is always holding her head to the left...

Oh well here are pictures....Does it look like she is using her back end at all? 





































And a video..



Her first jump weeee! She did it great! And looked great too! Does she look hollowed? Just look at her head! Not tucked in like she did when she was ridden by the Gods =D She also did not pin her ears back and she focused on the jump! Woohoo






Oh and Jo is a lovely rider! She would be a lot kinder than me..I tend to hang on a lot etc


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## PoohLP (Jan 15, 2009)

Lots of good advice here, so not a lot to add. However, I do want to point out that gags aren't evil if they are used correctly. In fact, they can help a lot with a horse that wants to get in a tug of war because they get the message a lot faster. But the rider has to have a lot of feel because it will only do its job correctly if you give every time the horse gives. If the horse gives even a little and you don't give, the bit gets severe and the head goes up. If you take and the horse gives and you give, then ask the horse to give a little more and you again give as soon as the horse gives, you will soon find yourself able to ride on the buckle - even with a gag. 

That is not to be saying that the OP should be using a gag or even that most people should. My guess from the OP's comments are that they don't have the experience to ride with one correctly. In fact, hard hands with a gag has probably exacerbated an already existent problem. 

That said, gags can be a useful training aid and can help create a very light horse if used correctly by an _experienced _rider who knows what they are doing.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Hey Sarah! Thanks for photos and vid, I plan to write a lot more for you later but currently don't have the time for a lengthy and well thought out response :wink:

One thing I do want to quickly mention is in regards to people telling you different things about bits. You will hear a different opinion from each person you ask. I can give you all the information I have and so can others here and we will be happy to do so. Then the next person might tell you the complete opposite, so who to believe now?

My advice to you is to research the action of each and every type of bit mentioned, how they are designed and _the specific purpose(s)_ they are designed for as well as how and when to use them. Then decide what you want to do with Lola, the best approach to take and make some short and long term goals for the both of you.

Lastly, reconcile your new knowledge regarding different bits and the outcomes you want to achieve with Lola and spend some time thinking on your own. Feel free to check back here of course and float ideas with us guys to get feedback and to speed up the learning process :wink:

Importantly, arm yourself with knowledge. Knowledge is power. So when people try to tell you that you are doing the wrong thing you can tell them WHAT you are doing, HOW you plan to do it and WHY you are doiong it that particular way.

ETA: This was lengthier than I planned.


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## Sarahandlola (Dec 16, 2010)

Thank you! I never really thought to read up about different bits but it is a good idea! I will start now on a straight bar to see what they are for etc. =D


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## GeminiJumper (Jun 12, 2008)

I think she looks a lot better in a snaffle than the other bit. She seems more relaxed and willing to move into the bit.


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

GeminiJumper said:


> I think she looks a lot better in a snaffle than the other bit. She seems more relaxed and willing to move into the bit.


I totally agree with this...she is not perfect, by any means, but she is definitely much more relaxed; and she is driving from behind much better in a couple of the pics. Often one ride is not enough to really tell how well a horse will ride in a new bit...I would try several more times, but my gut tells me she is already alot happier. :wink:


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

This could be long.

I see some things I really like in the pictures and video, most of all I see a horse that wants to do what you want her to do. She just isn't quite sure what that is yet.

In my opinion she is much better off in the snaffle. She looks like a happy horse that is in need of schooling, nothing more and nothing less. In your previous picture with the gag bit she was uncomfortable, stiffening through the back and inverting her neck in an effort to brace against you. You may not have felt this too much because the action of the bit would prevent too much of this force being transferred back to your hands. Kind of a vicious circle and undoubtedly the cause of her current neck musculature.

In answer to your question, no she is not engaging her hind just yet and her back is quite hollow. BUT...I can tell from the photos that it really wouldn't take much to get her to do so, just some good schooling.

Now, the schooling part. I will not critique the rider as such, only point things out as I feel are relevant. I can see a few things from the pictures, the rider is riding rather passively, her core is not engaged and her lower leg is out of line and not strong enough to really encourage true forward movement. She is sort of perched on top of the horse and giving Lola a 'nice' ride but it is not an _effective_ ride. For this reason, Lola is just 'running' around the arena having a grand old time.

This is particularly evident in the second picture where Lola is counter flexing through her neck but the rest of her body is not synchronised. If you go back to my explanation of straightness this is EXACTLY what I was talking about. Whether you are on a circle or on a straight line the ears must be followed by the forelegs and the hindlegs in unison. In that photo she has dropped her shoulder, go back and have a look and see if you can see what I am talking about.

Now, for the video. Again, something of a passive ride but Lola looks happy enough in the snaffle. Any cause for discomfort is actually coming from the saddle in three different forms:

1.) The rider at times has her hands quite high, at other times they are in the correct position. There is no reason to raise the hand position at all in this instance (flatwork) and all it does is rotate the bit slightly in the horses mouth and ever so slightly change it's positioning in the horses mouth. This small disruption is uncomfortable to the horse (any horse would be the same) and she responds by being unquiet on the contact.

2.) This is an important one! The rider is not following the motion of the horses head with the canter movement. Canter is a three beat gait and as such your hands should rock backwards and forwards ever so slightly with the movement of their head. This allows them to comfortably execute the canter stride without being bumped in the mouth each time. If you fail to do this, the very action of cantering results in them being bothered in the mouth, thus making it considerably harder for them to settle on to the contact.

3.) The rider's core is not strong and as such her weight is not consistently on her pedal bones and her upper body is a overbalancing. Our own balance has immense effect on our horses movement and overall balance. Imagine if you were to try running around with a backpack strapped to you carrying 10%-20% of your body weight and it was moving independantly? Don't know about you but I would probably fall on my face. We want to be as in sync with the horse and as well balanced as possible so that our horses can in turn be in sync and balanced too.

Overall, lovely horse. Wouldn't take much at all to get her going beautifully she has a lovely attitude and plenty of talent. I hope that you can find someone closer to you to help you with all of this!

I would recommend looking up some good dressage instructors in your area. Ones that either used to successfully compete or still do and book yourself in for some lessons. Even if you can only make it once a month or once every couple of months it will be money well spent and you will reap the benefits for many many years to come!


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## Sarahandlola (Dec 16, 2010)

So she looks happy in that bit? It is a single jointed one...Should I maybe try a french link or straight bar because when on her she does not feel happy in it. Or maybe she is just stiff..


And I do notice in the second picture she looks very uncomfortable. But that is what I mean about her holding her head the the left. She does it a lot. I will hopefully get someone to video me on her today...Just be prepared I am gonna look a lot worse than the other girl =P My position is something I am trying to work on which might be putting her out of balance. I was hoping I could get a lesson on her yesterday but the lesson went on a trek and I was told to stay behind because there was so many of them..And because she did so well on her first hack here I did not want to upset her by going with loads of other horses who would be jumping,cantering etc while she watches and gets aggravated! So I was told one of the days again soon I can go out with two or three quiet horses =) 


Anyways yes thank you for the great advice guys! I am gonna get her back checked out again because I do not like the way she curls up when someone gets off...Unless horses just do that out of habit? Her head goes up in the air and her belly drops..It is weird!


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## GeminiJumper (Jun 12, 2008)

She may look unhappy in the snaffle but she 10x happier in it than that other bit you had her in! You can try a french link snaffle, she might like it better, but like someone else mentioned, I think she just needs some general schooling and she'll be fine. As you've mentioned, you're own riding needs work so I think she's just not a happy camper right now because she's looking for someone who will be light on her back and respectful of her mouth. Are you taking lessons of any sort? If you are taking jumping lessons I would put those on hold and just ask for some flatwork. I think your best solution would be to take some dressage lessons from a qualified trainer. He/She will be able to really help you on a correct riding position and help you how to work with Lola. 

I thought she had her back checked out? Even if so, going ahead and having her checked again isn't a horrible idea.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Sarahandlola said:


> So she looks happy in that bit? It is a single jointed one...Should I maybe try a french link or straight bar because when on her she does not feel happy in it. Or maybe she is just stiff..
> 
> 
> And I do notice in the second picture she looks very uncomfortable. But that is what I mean about her holding her head the the left. She does it a lot. I will hopefully get someone to video me on her today...Just be prepared I am gonna look a lot worse than the other girl =P My position is something I am trying to work on which might be putting her out of balance. I was hoping I could get a lesson on her yesterday but the lesson went on a trek and I was told to stay behind because there was so many of them..And because she did so well on her first hack here I did not want to upset her by going with loads of other horses who would be jumping,cantering etc while she watches and gets aggravated! So I was told one of the days again soon I can go out with two or three quiet horses =)
> ...


Hmm, well that isn’t _quite_ what I was trying to convey regarding the second picture. Perhaps my explanation as not worded very well. You know the horse better than I do and if she really is uncomfortable in the snaffle then a French link is a lovely bit also. Bear in mind that a simple change of bit is not going to encourage the use of her hindquarters or cause her to become supple, that is something achieved from the saddle.

Hopefully someone else will chime in with their observations regarding the photos and give an alternative viewpoint that may have more clarity than mine.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Why do you stay at a barn that you seem to be that miserable at? If you can not ride your horse the way you want to there why stay?


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## New_image (Oct 27, 2007)

Hmm, I disagree. Now, forgive me as I've only skimmed threw the first page but I do not think just "ride her dressage style, fix her butt and her neck will follow" is YOUR problem. 
I've followed many of your posts. Threw the internet I sense the anxiety you have regarding some things with this horse. So that said, SHE can sense this too. 

Fix her neck, then worry about her butt, then yes once her butt is fixed her neck will follow under saddle. Don't get me wrong, I love dressage work, great idea but you're problem lies with Lola's fight or flight muscle NOT with her butt. 

Horses have two neck muscles, the bottom is her "fight or flight" muscle and the top his her thinking muscle. In every post you've written about this mare she chooses to fight or flight, so thus that muscle is ALWAYS engaged and thus its huge and her thinking muscle is... not so huge now. She needs to be taught to dis-engage her bottom muscle and to use her top muscle before any amount of dressage riding will work  She needs to not want to fight or flight all the time.


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## Sarahandlola (Dec 16, 2010)

Yup her back was checked the same time she was lame. He was focusing more on her leg though. This time I will get him out to check everything..Like her turning to the left is so hard! She puts up such a fight and seems so stiff! So I dunno if that is coming from her mouth, neck or back. 


sarahver I do get what you are saying about the picture. She is not straight and I noticed her shoulder was dropped. 

Ab- The yard is very nice and I am getting a good deal at it. It is just some of the people there that judge a lot! But I am just gonna totally forget about them and there opinions. It will be hard because one of them is my friend but she is the same as them. And the new trainer there is so lovely and she will help me a lot.

I might just ride and lunge her in bungee reins to get her neck looking a little better while I work on her back end.

I did not get to ride her today again! The second I get to the yard..'Can I pleaaaaaase ride Lola' Haha I have a hard time saying no. But I am riding her tomorrow because she has been worked a lot all week and I just want to take it easy with walking and trotting. She has been so hyper lately...And she is rushing even more in one particular corner in the bigger arena. I would like to ride her in the bigger one but she just flies around it...What should I do to make her slow down in the corner? Maybe totally stop her or something? Oh and I dunno if I asked this but will getting her to canter from halt and walk make her use her back end more?


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

Sarahandlola said:


> I did not get to ride her today again! The second I get to the yard..'Can I pleaaaaaase ride Lola' Haha I have a hard time saying no. But I am riding her tomorrow because she has been worked a lot all week and I just want to take it easy with walking and trotting. She has been so hyper lately...And she is rushing even more in one particular corner in the bigger arena. I would like to ride her in the bigger one but she just flies around it...What should I do to make her slow down in the corner? Maybe totally stop her or something? Oh and I dunno if I asked this but will getting her to canter from halt and walk make her use her back end more?


I've read through the whole thread and, as usual, there is some very good advise here. The one thing that troubled me is the first two lines of the quote above. IMO, your horse will not get consistent until there is only one person riding her correctly. You can put all the correct training on her then allow a rider to undo all you've done with just one bad ride. I'm not talking about a trainer but someone who doesn't know how to ride your horse the right way.

When I'm working with a horse, no one rides that horse but me. I have other horses for them to ride but not the one I'm working with. Just my 2¢


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