# Bad luck with a good trainer...



## missy567 (Jan 27, 2010)

Okay so a friend of mine, sent her pony to a trainer. A very reputable one at that. Well he only had the pony for two weeks, when I seen the pony, he had been standing in the barn for 4+ hours while the trainer was not home, with a saddle on his back! He had no one monitering him. When he came up to us, i noticed he had bloody sores on the sides of his mouth where some one had laid into his mouth with a harsh bit... The pony is only 3 and was totally spoiled rotten he had never wore a saddle a day in his life, the day the trainer comes to get him, he gets on him that same day... never earns the trust or creates a bond with him or any thing....

Is this normal for a trainer???:shock:


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## Kashmere (Nov 30, 2009)

I would personally say it is not.

Why don't u go ahead and ask them about it?
Like, what happened with the mouth and why they go so fast with the saddle?

Perhaps the trainer had a proper reason for it 
However I would definitely get onto the case and try to find out


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I would be very cautious before making assumptions. You said yourself that this pony is spoiled rotton - a bit does NOT have to be harsh to make marks on the side of the mouth. Just this weekend, our pony Justus ended up with a bloody mouth when she decided to blow a gasket over some wagons and the bit got banged against her tooth in trying to control her. I wouldn't be surprised if she ends up with some mild sores on the corners of her mouth after the fireworks she pulled and how hard Shay-la had to fight to control her. We got a leadrope on her and ponied her as quick as possible, but she did it all herself.

It is more then common for him to climb aboard the first day - he is NOT here to bond with this horse, he is here to ensure your friend gets her money's worth in whatever time he is allotted. I would actually be quite happy at someone who gets to work so promptly. As for letting him pack a saddle, for all you know this pony decided he didn't feel like learning and took your trainer for one heckuva good ride and now he's standing in a stall to sulk it out and consider his options.

Appearances can be decieving and if this pony went to the trainer spoiled, you can guarantee he's not coming back without a few marks - and probably all of his own accord. If I saw open bloody spur gashes on his side, I'd be ticked, but what you've described sounds pretty consistant with a snotty pony thinking he can get his way and learning the hard way he can't - which is exactly what's being paid for.

By all means, ask the trainer about it, but I wouldn't be getting upset about it at this point.


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## Fowl Play (Sep 22, 2009)

It might be in everyone's best interest to let the owner of the pony do the questioning. Things could get pretty ugly if a friend were to start asking a lot of questions. Just saying.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

missy567 said:


> Okay so a friend of mine, sent her pony to a trainer. A very reputable one at that. Well he only had the pony for two weeks, when I seen the pony, he had been standing in the barn for 4+ hours while the trainer was not home, with a saddle on his back! He had no one monitering him. When he came up to us, i noticed he had bloody sores on the sides of his mouth where some one had laid into his mouth with a harsh bit... The pony is only 3 and was totally spoiled rotten he had never wore a saddle a day in his life, the day the trainer comes to get him, he gets on him that same day... never earns the trust or creates a bond with him or any thing....
> 
> Is this normal for a trainer???:shock:


Is it normal? Only for the good ones. Sometimes young horses have to be pulled on with the bit. The corners of the mouth are soft and sensitive and if they haven't built any thicker skin then they will sometimes get a little red. I don't worry about that because when they get sore I have to pull less and then they heal up and you have a nice soft horse. There is no such thing as a harsh bit. I have sored a horses mouth with a snaffle before. I once had a horse cut her tongue almost all the way off lbecause she stepped on a rein in a snaffle. How do you think horses get over being spoiled? How do you think a horse learns to stand quietly while saddled? It's not from being hand grazed and petted. It's from work and training and sometimes being left to figure things out for themselves. If your friend has the same attitude that I gather you have from your post the pony will be back to it's spoiled self in no time regardless of what the mean old trainer makes it do.


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## Flex Horse (Mar 10, 2010)

I have to agree with Kevinshorses 100% (actually I usually agree with most of his posts, very similar outlook to us!). And like Fowl Play said, it really would be best to let the owner of the pony raise any questions or concerns directly with the trainer. It's always best to be upfront and have good open lines of communication between trainers and owners!


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## sandy2u1 (May 7, 2008)

I only wanted to comment on the part about the horse being left tied up. I had to send my horse to a trainer because of some severe issues we were having together. My trainer did some things I was unsure about...like using a chain over his nose during lunging and riding him first thing in the morning and leaving him tied all day (although I didn't say anything, just worried)...but I must say, the proof is in the pudding so to speak. Every time I went out, my horse and I got better and better together. As time would tell, she is a very kind and gentle trainer, she just doesn't put up with crap. She taught my horse that there is a good and acceptable way to act that is easiest and doesn't cause pain, but if he chooses the other way, there will be consequences.


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## draftrider (Mar 31, 2010)

I don't have a problem with a horse wearing a saddle for four hours. If I was saddling for the first time I'd leave the saddle on for enough time that the horse got used to it and quit humping up or getting worried about it. If it takes 4 hours, so it takes 4 hours. If it takes 4 days, then the horse will wear the saddle all day long. 

I was criticized just yesterday for tying my gelding to my horse trailer for a few hours. He decided to dance around while grooming when I had him snapped onto the trailer loop, so guess what? He stood there while I finished grooming, and as long as he felt like dancing around. When he finally relaxed about 3 hours later, he got untied. I was told by someone it was abusive to tie a horse for hours because "he would be bored".


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## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

Just because the OP sounds young doesn't mean she can't put two and two together. When I was younger and Gunther went into training I knew something was wrong in my gut, but I didn't say anything. And now I wish I did! Now that I know what I'm looking at it actually ****es me off. And that was from a "reputable trainer". 

Putting a horse in the saddle in his/her stall is fine, I did it with Gunther and it worked out well. However, no responsible trainer would get up and leave the horse for 4+ hours. Too many reasons to count. What the horse tied or just let lose in his stall? I know two owners who decided it was a great idea to tie their horse in the stall and leave. Guess what?! The horse died. The vet suspected it was because the horse was spooked by something and his head was tied up so he had a some what "heat attack". I'm not against putting a horse in the stall and tying him for manners, eta.. but I would never, ever leave the horse tied and walk away. 

What type of "harsh bit" was he using? A small cut is nothing, but if the horse has sores on both sides of his mouth I would probably be ****ed. I don't know one horse, and I'll ask my boss today, that has gotten sores on both sides of his mouth from a simple training bit. Even if it was the first time riding the horse. It's not normal. To me I would be saying "hmm either this bit is too small/tight and is rubbing, or this guy is harshly pulling back with both reins, eta.."

No the trainer isn't there to be buddy buddy, but he still has to have some respect and trust from the horse.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

I'm not a very responsible trainer then. I have left horses tied up for hours for various reasons and I expect them to get over whatever is scaring them if it doesn't kill them immediately. I have never had a problem with it. As I said before alot of horses have very tender skin on the corners of thier mouths and it doesn't take much to get it sore. I will pull as much as the horse forces me to but not one bit more. Sometimes I barely have to take slack from the rein and sometimes I have to pull quite hard.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Sounds pretty normal to me. I like a horse to stand in tack for awhile as part of the breaking process. Usually I take the stirrups off so they can't get hung on anything; and I used to keep an old ratty saddle that I didn't care about for exactly this purpose. 4 hours doesn't sound excessive. Nothing's hurting the pony here, he's just learning patience and tolerance. 

I also usually let a greenie stand in bitting rig - loose ring or rubber snaffle, surcingle and side reins for 1 - 2 hours at a time. I adjust the side reins so that the horse has to learn to give to release the pressure. It's ideal, IMO, just to leave the horse alone in his stall to work this out for himself. When I see the horse standing quietly, not fighting and giving to the pressure; then I'll do a little long rein work and establish steering and brakes. He may very well fight the rig at first and hurt his mouth, but I want him to associate that pain with his fighting, not with me or anything I'm doing. 

I also don't have a problem backing a horse the first day. 

As far as earning trust or creating a bond, a good trainer does that *by* working with the horse in this manner, and being a leader. A lot of the NH games and exercises that "earn trust" or "create a bond" are long, slow routes to this goal for handlers that aren't comfortable in the role of alpha or leader. A calm, confident, authoritative trainer doesn't need these exercises because he/she is secure in that role and can communicate that to the horse readily. You may be confusing the means with the end.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> I'm not a very responsible trainer then. I have left horses tied up for hours for various reasons and I expect them to get over whatever is scaring them if it doesn't kill them immediately. I have never had a problem with it. As I said before alot of horses have very tender skin on the corners of thier mouths and it doesn't take much to get it sore. I will pull as much as the horse forces me to but not one bit more. Sometimes I barely have to take slack from the rein and sometimes I have to pull quite hard.



Were you still around when you left them tied? Like you went into the house, maybe sat down and ate dinner? You could at least be in hearing distance if a horse started to really have a mental breakdown or get himself in trouble.

To the OP, what did this guy do? Go to dinner and a movie? Thats irresponsible. However, if he was always kind of around, but not RIGHT there, then thats teaching patience.

Also, I would be concerned, regardless of whether the practice is "normal" or not, of whether or not this horse had access to water. That would also be a deciding factor of irresponsible vs just questionable practices.


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## draftrider (Mar 31, 2010)

A horse is not going to suffer from not having access to water for 4 hours. Heck, when my bunch is out in the way back pasture in summer, they come up twice a day for water and thats it. No animal is dehydrated in 4 hours except maybe a frog.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

draftrider said:


> A horse is not going to suffer from not having access to water for 4 hours. Heck, when my bunch is out in the way back pasture in summer, they come up twice a day for water and thats it. No animal is dehydrated in 4 hours except maybe a frog.


I guess it depends on where you live? In Florida all the horses we have go maybe an hour without water, its just too hot and too humid.

Especially if the horse is stressed out, pacing or dancing etc, I could imagine needing water sooner.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

White Foot said:


> J
> 
> Putting a horse in the saddle in his/her stall is fine, I did it with Gunther and it worked out well. However, no responsible trainer would get up and leave the horse for 4+ hours. Too many reasons to count. What the horse tied or just let lose in his stall? I know two owners who decided it was a great idea to tie their horse in the stall and leave. Guess what?! The horse died. The vet suspected it was because the horse was spooked by something and his head was tied up so he had a some what "heat attack". I'm not against putting a horse in the stall and tying him for manners, eta.. but I would never, ever leave the horse tied and walk away.


We have tie stalls the horses can be in over night. Have not had a heart attack yet.

Horses stand tied to the trailer for hours at horse shows, some horses are not allowed to lay down after surgery at the clinic and are tied for hours . . .


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## Chavez (May 18, 2009)

My first gelding went to the trainers and on many occasions i showed up and found excatly waht you talk about. Him tied around in the stall tacked up. Well i tell you what when i sold him that boy would stand for hours (on trail, trailer, barn you name it he would stand). I since than have never had a horse that stood so long and did not have a care in the world. So guess what i am working with my new gelding doing the same thing now and he is coming along great.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

kevinshorses said:


> I have left horses tied up for hours for various reasons and* I expect them to get over whatever is scaring them if it doesn't kill them immediately.* I have never had a problem with it.


I did it once last year (I was around BTW so that's the only reason she was not dead). The vet cost me too much that time to do it again (plus over month off for the horse).


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

You have to tie them up safely and properly or they may injure themselves. I sometimes leave a horse tied while I go to town for some reason or I might just be in the house eating dinner but I can't see the barn from the table and I have three little boys so I couldn't hear the horse if it spontaneously exploded. I tie them securely and safely and let them worry about the rest.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

kevinshorses said:


> *You have to tie them up safely and properly or they may injure themselves. *I sometimes leave a horse tied while I go to town for some reason or I might just be in the house eating dinner but I can't see the barn from the table and I have three little boys so I couldn't hear the horse if it spontaneously exploded. I tie them securely and safely and let them worry about the rest.


Then what would you consider as completely safe? I'm not arguing here BTW, I'm indeed curious.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

I think to many people spoil their horses and put human emotions on to them. Heck I have weanlings that will stand tied for hours. Be it it was not the first time tied and they are worked up to that but they MUST learn. Go to a show where there are no stalls. Your horse must tie. Some times all day. I have little problem with this. If my classes are close enough together or if I am showing more then one horse they will stand tied with a saddle at times most of the day.


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## draftrider (Mar 31, 2010)

^
^

This. People spoil their horses rotten then wonder why they have problems with them.

Like I said- I don't have a problem tying a horse for hours, or leaving a saddle on for hours, or restricting them from eating and drinking for a few hours, so long as it is done to train, not abuse.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

One of my mares I got when she was about 4 months old. She is by my stallion. Great mare but when I got her she was spoiled or at least not very well trained. When I would go into feed her she would not move and was pushy. Well one day I got fed up and I pushed her out my way. She got made and turned and double barreled at me. She missed but I went and got her halter and she stood tied for 3 hours with her dinners in her bucket. That was not only the last time she was pushy but she has NEVER offered to kick again and she is now 8.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> Then what would you consider as completely safe? I'm not arguing here BTW, I'm indeed curious.


Tied at or above wither hieght and with no more than the lenght of your arm between what you tied to and your halter. Nothing that the horse can get it's feet caught in and nothing they can wrap the rope around. The knot has to be tied properly (I'm not sure what it's called and I can't even attempt to explain how to tie it) so that it doesn't slip or come untied. 

If your horse nearly killed itself I would guess that you didn't meet one of those criteria. I don't always meet them either but if I don't meet them I won't tie up a horse that I don't know will stand pretty well and I don't usually leave.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

We went for a ride this weekend, and it's huge - well over a hundred riders with over a dozen teams. It equals a LOT of trailers and a lot of tied horses in a big field.

We were cringing. We went for a walk, and routinely witnessed unattended horses left tied so long they could lay down with room to spare. I couldn't believe it - I don't care how good you THINK your horse is, that's just asking for trouble. Why do people think they're being "nice" by tying them long enough to graze? It's called a hay net if you're really worried people!

Sorry, totally off topic. Regardless, there are definately ways to leave a horse safely tied and unattended. I would have no qualms leaving most of our crew tied and unattended for extended periods of time - even without food, they settle in and have a nice snooze!


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## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

I would never leave my horse, or any horse that came into training tied for a few hours and walk away. Even tied properly you are still going to ask for trouble. 

A girl at the barn thought "Hell, it worked on another horse so I'm going to tie my horse in her stall and it will teach her to stand still". Needless to say she walked away and got talking on her phone, went to the local sub shop and took her sweet *** time. She came back and that horse was broke out in hives, was sweating up a storm, had two swollen legs from pawing and kicking the wall, and pulled a few muscles. If a stable hand is there to monitor the situation I would say alright. But if you're going to walk away from my horse for a few hours I would say screw it and keep my money to find a better trainer. Unless that particular trainer wanted to pay the vet bills. 

Hell, if you're going to tie your OWN horse. Go right ahead! It's your horse. But if I'm going to PAY you, nooo way would you do that to my horse. I would be paying you for a reason, and if you were going to leave my horse unattended and something happened, lets just say... you're going down.


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## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

mls said:


> Horses stand tied to the trailer for hours at horse shows, some horses are not allowed to lay down after surgery at the clinic and are tied for hours . . .


Right, and the key is they are monitored.


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## aforred (May 12, 2010)

Couple of questions.

!. How long was the trainer gone?
2. Was anyone else on the property, like a hired hand? 
3. Where was the pony tied?
4. Have you ever had a blister?

This is just my opinion, but leaving a horse tied for a few hours wearing the saddle is not a big deal for me, IF I know the horse, and if he won't be alone too long. I don't know how long the trainer was gone, or if anyone else had been in and out to check on him. If I'm going to tie up a horse and go to the house, I tie it where I can see it from the house or in a place where it's not likely to get spooked.
As far as the mouth sores go -- sometimes it's like blisters on your feet. Skin that is not accustomed to getting rubbed on will blister or break. And just like blisters on your feet, you can't always tell that it's happening AS it is happening. Sometimes it's only apparent after the fact.

Remember, JMO.:wink:


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## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

Let me add, that I have nothing against tying a horse in the stall for manners. We did it to Gunther and he was an angel after. As soon as he was done with a ride instead of turning him out, we would tie him in his stall for manners so he learned that getting back to the barn isn't as good as it sounds. If you couldn't tell, I just don't like the part about walking away for a couple of hours. 

When Gunther was tied in his stall, we would leave and go into the indoor to work another horse. Atleast that way we can still hear if he has a meltdown.


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## Fowl Play (Sep 22, 2009)

I've been thinking about this for a long time. It reminds me of when we took our first lab to a pro trainer for field training. We were told that they didn't want us to come visit for 4-6 weeks. At first my husband was really concerned about the secret but its a similar situation...our dogs are spoiled and they needed them out of that cushy environment to make progress. At first we thought it had to do with WHAT they did while they had the dog, but since the first dog went for his long stay, my husband has become good friends with the trainer and has helped him train several dogs. What happens in that first 4-6 weeks is not that bad...it's just not what spoiled house dogs are used to. 

When an owner comes for the first time, he sees his spoiled little dog under pressure, being corrected, and sitting in a dog truck for hours. At first it seems cruel (especially the truck part) but now when my first labs goes to his house to work out, when it's time to leave he goes to the trainers truck and wants on there instead of ours! 

I think that owners are often concerned about the lapse in time they have to endure while their baby is away at training. Unless you are there daily, you have no idea just what is going on. All you have is the snapshot from the time you visit. 

I still believe that the OWNER needs to address her concerns with the trainer, but remember, ****ing the trainer off could have you taking your horse home earlier than planned, and partially trained. 

As for a horse being tied up...we were not there, we don't know why or for how long, or under what circumstances. It's hard to make a judgement when all we get is info from someone who isn't happy. Having seen things from the owner's (granted a dog) and then from the trainer's side, I realize that our concerns at first were completely unfounded. I wonder if this isn't the case here either.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

missy567 said:


> Okay so a friend of mine, sent her pony to a trainer. A very reputable one at that. Well he only had the pony for two weeks, when I seen the pony, he had been standing in the barn for 4+ hours while the trainer was not home, with a saddle on his back! He had no one monitering him. When he came up to us, i noticed he had bloody sores on the sides of his mouth where some one had laid into his mouth with a harsh bit... The pony is only 3 and was totally spoiled rotten he had never wore a saddle a day in his life, the day the trainer comes to get him, he gets on him that same day... never earns the trust or creates a bond with him or any thing....
> 
> Is this normal for a trainer???:shock:


I wouldn't worry about the sores on the mouth at all, almost all horses get some irritation when they are been broken, after all it is virgin skin so to speak.

Two questions: 

Did you ask the trainer if it was OK to come and visit the horse? If he knew you were coming and left the horse in a saddle, tied up for you to see, sounds like he wanted to make a point that the horse isn't going to be babied any more. 

Also, how long is the horse in training for? Usually it is 30 days, 60 days etc. Basically not much time to bond with the horse before you start proper training. Not everyone 'bonds' with every horse and most people would not be very pleased if a trainer spent a lot of their time forming individual relationships with each and every horse. Time is money. They are there to learn how to be ridden and handled, not how to be friends. When you have a lot of horses that need to be broken at once, guaranteed there is very little time to bond with each and every one of them.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

White Foot said:


> Right, and the key is they are monitored.


 
Overnight? Nope.

At shows - not the whole time. We work at our shows. Depending how long between the classes - the horse can stand tied for hours.

As far as your stablemate - who is to say the horse wouldn't of ended up in the same condition with someone standing right there? Perhaps the pawing and sweating were due to the hives - which was an allergic reaction to something else.

Even closely supervised horses can end up in trouble in the blink of an eye.


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## spence (Nov 8, 2009)

i wouldn't worry about the sores. i managed to get some sores on our TB's mouth, but they heal. and he listens better, too. 

and leaving them tied isn't bad, i have left at least two of my own tied for extended periods. i'm riding some horses for a gal right now. one of the first things i told her was that sometimes they NEED to be tied when they won't behave, and when i went out yesterday (only the second trip), she'd had all three of them tied since around noon. 

the reason why she's got me coming up and riding them is she and her family just don't have the horse experience, and i'm getting them rode so that she can start riding them again and have the kinks worked out. they weren't even using slip knots on them, so i'm also going to try and have her as absolutely prepared as possible to NOT have problems when i'm done with them.

different strokes for different folks, but a trainer is there for just that, training. and for pete's sake, i worked at a kid's camp for two summers. what the heck do you think they do with camp horses between lessons or trail rides? turn them back out? NO, they stay tied all dang day, 5 days a week. depending on the day, it's either with tack on or not, but it doesn't matter. horse has got to know how to stand tied.


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## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

mls said:


> Overnight? Nope.
> 
> At shows - not the whole time. We work at our shows. Depending how long between the classes - the horse can stand tied for hours.
> 
> ...


Do what you want. If the horse was going to end up in the same condition, I would end up taking him out before he got that bad. Obviously you wouldn't want to keep a horse in a stressful situation like that, esp if you can see the horse is in alot of physical distress. And if the horses owner was there monitoring her she would have done the same. 

Pawing a few times, a few whinnys, and a little dancing is nothing. But when your horse is doing what hers did, it would make you wonder if what you're doing is worth the stress you're causing the horse.



> different strokes for different folks, but a trainer is there for just that, training. and for pete's sake, i worked at a kid's camp for two summers. what the heck do you think they do with camp horses between lessons or trail rides? turn them back out? NO, they stay tied all dang day, 5 days a week. depending on the day, it's either with tack on or not, but it doesn't matter. horse has got to know how to stand tied.


Just because it's a kids camp doesn't mean it's okay. And that's why most people feel bad for lesson horses, A horse needs time to be A horse, and if he's tied all day between lessons and trail rides he can't be a horse.


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## FlitterBug (May 28, 2009)

I was given a horse one time with severe issues. He had been through multiple trainers and all had passed saying he was too far gone. When I got the horse, I found him perfectly fine with other horses, but to seperate, even with a single fenceline at first, sent him crashing through it. He went through wire fences, board fences, took down round pen panels, stall walls, cleared 4 feet out of a stall he couldn't break with ease. Even with multiple horses with him, his insecurity issues were so deep that to take one horse away took a whole fence down. Surprisingly, he never hurt himself, isn't that always the way?

This horse did, however, tie beautifully. So, when other horses were in their stalls or taken away for riding, he had a good solid shade tree with a hay bag and a bucket of water. Ideal, no, but you get tired of fixing fences after a while. With a way to control is spurts of insanity, I was able to start working sensibly with him. When he crashed through fences, he was in a state of anxiety and fortunately seemed to have no idea what he was doing, because we slowly started reintroducing him to the idea of being "fenced in" in a good mindset and having other horses taken away. I was able to get him undersaddle and start training. The horse was 14 years old.

That horse spent a crazy amount of time on that tree, but if I felt a bit of sympathy and let him off the tree before he was ready, you could bet some money that we would be catching a horse and fixing a fence.

He turned into an amazing horse once trained. I sold him to a barn that used him as a lesson horse. When the trainer moved, she donated him and I later found out he is a therapeutic riding horse now. I contacted the owner of the center a few years ago and she mentioned that he was one of their best horses, he even had a story written up in the newspaper about him, his sweet trustworthy nature, and his work ethic.

When he was first tied to that tree, he had himself in a sweaty mess, he pawed a hole in the ground that could break an ankle and his screams were ear piercing. After some time, he loved his tree, he came to enjoy work, and he came to enjoy rest. Was it normal training, not at all, but he also wasn't a normal horse. He's 20 yrs old now and still at the handicapped center.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

White Foot said:


> Do what you want. If the horse was going to end up in the same condition, I would end up taking him out before he got that bad. Obviously you wouldn't want to keep a horse in a stressful situation like that, esp if you can see the horse is in alot of physical distress. And if the horses owner was there monitoring her she would have done the same.


Yep - and that is how horses learn to get away with things. I buck - my owner gets off and puts me back out in the pasture, I pull and I don't have to stand tied anymore.

Yep - good training.:?


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> Is it normal? I once had a horse cut her tongue almost all the way off lbecause she stepped on a rein in a snaffle. How do you think horses get over being spoiled? How do you think a horse learns to stand quietly while saddled? It's not from being hand grazed and petted. It's from work and training and sometimes being left to figure things out for themselves.


Sounds like ripping it's tongue off was figuring it out? Not where I come from. Sounds like a careless handler. You have to take responsibility for being irresponsible.


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## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

A boarder told me today that she lost her horse 8? years ago because while in the trailer he hung himself, it was only an hour long trailer ride and she checked him before she left, and in the middle of the trip, then when they arrived to trail ride she found the horse. I guess it's not all that uncommon either. I mean one bad knot or wrong move this could happen to anyone's horse.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

I NEVER leave one of my horses out of sight tied. It doesn't matter how well they tie, or how bad. They are always in my eyesight. When I took my old mare to our first show and had her tied to the trailer, I couldn't believe how people could so easily leave their horses unsupervised. They'd be on the other side of the grounds, leaving an anxious, hobbled horse all alone. You never know what could happen. Maybe if you were there when an accident happened you wouldn't have been able to do anything to help the horse. But what if you COULD have done something? Same with jerking a horse so viciously in the mouth that he's bloodied up... Get him focused on you, yes. Bloody him up? No. I must say, i've lost respect for some people on here after reading some of these replies. :/
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

churumbeque said:


> Sounds like ripping it's tongue off was figuring it out? Not where I come from. Sounds like a careless handler. You have to take responsibility for being irresponsible.


I'm not sure what your point is. I dropped the rein and the horse stepped on it. I guess it was careless but I would like to point out that she wasn't tied and I was standing right there and she still got injured. 

If you want to treat your horse like it's made of spun sugar then I wish you well. If it weren't for people spoiling perfectly good horses I would have to get a real job.


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## Fowl Play (Sep 22, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> I'm not sure what your point is. I dropped the rein and the horse stepped on it. I guess it was careless but I would like to point out that she wasn't tied and I was standing right there and she still got injured.
> 
> If you want to treat your horse like it's made of spun sugar then I wish you well. If it weren't for people spoiling perfectly good horses I would have to get a real job.


Kevin, that's what our dog trainer says! When business gets slow he calls my husband and says people must have stopped ruining dogs!


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Unfortunately I am guilty of ruining some good dogs. I am currently working on changing that. I am buying a Border Collie female that is started on stock and I am trying to educate myself and find people that can help me so I don't ruin her.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> Same with jerking a horse so viciously in the mouth that he's bloodied up... Get him focused on you, yes. Bloody him up? No.


I just want to say - Sores on the mouth are generally not caused by 'yanking' or pulling. They are caused by horses with extremely soft skin on the lips, and they rub againt the bit, causing something similar to a blister, only it doesn't blister, it just rubs.

Once it heals, it is stronger and generally doesn't happen again - but it is nearly impossible to prevent that first time.


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

I have to say I am TOTALLY shocked...not that the trainer tied the horse or that a greenie ended up with a sore mouth...that the majority of the posters here are in agreement that sometimes, horses have to work it out. Every other thread i've read has been all about sweet talking a horse into doing what you want and pampering their very hineys. I was really starting to think that I was alone. Now don't go thinking im the big-nasty with a whip...im not. I dont let my horses push me around period. I don't see the harm in a properly tied horse nor do i see the problem with a sore on the mouth. For all you know, that lil pony took that trainer for a wild ride with his head between his knees and the bit in his teeth. Like one of the other posters had mentioned, if hes covered in spur marks or whip marks...get him out of there.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I love how people start bringing up the "Well, one time..." stories. Anything can ALWAYS happen. Horses get hurt. It's part of life. Leaving a horse unsupervised for 8 hours a night in a tie stall is absolutely NO different then leaving a horse unattended at a trailer or tied to a tree outside. When done properly, you not only completely minimize his chances for injury, you also set him for a future of less injuries by knowing manners and respect.

Not only do my horses know how to tie, they know to hold still and not be stupid if they manage to get tangled in something. I actually had my Arab mare get her leg through a bucket handle when I was on her and she stopped dead to lift her leg and shake it off.

As confident as I am in my horses ability to be smart when tied, I'm equally as confident in her ability to keep a straight head if something happens. It's called training. It never ceases to amaze me what some people consider dangerous. A properly tied horse should be in one of the absolute SAFEST positions of all.

Sores are not caused by harsh bits or excessive pulling - they're caused by sensitivity. I have been on some pretty crazy horses, and you can darn near reef an older horses face off and nothing will happen. You get a young horse causing trouble and forcing the trainer to use the bit more then normal, you'll get the sores and irritated skin every single time. I've never seen a big curb cause sores, but I've seen plenty of snaffles do it on young horses who'd rather bronc then behave.

This is not a NORMAL horse people. The OP has already stated he's SPOILED. No, this shouldn't be for a well mannered young horse, but I can't believe how quick people are to pass judgement.

And the ironic part is you're probably the SAME people who'd scream bloody murder when the horse ended up bound for slaughter because nobody was willing to break the spoiled out of him. Remember this the next time you think it's so KYOOT that your foal nips and kicks out at you!


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

^^love it!


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

*Respect good intentions, please!*

KevinsHorses, & whoever else did this here: when someone disagrees with your ways, you insinuate that they treat their horses like "spun sugar", ad nauseum! WhiteFoot and others here have objected to tying a horse for long periods in isolation and without human monitoring, _for the horse's_ _safety!_ That motive is to be respected. I was at a facility where the trainer would tie a horse in isolation & without monitoring. I saw it twice before I quit the trainer. One horse was tied against a barn, had a meltdown, got loose, but no lesson learned. The second horse got tied to a steel hitching bar set into a rough concrete floor. I happened upon him, he was having a meltdown, no one around, & so I stayed with him as long as I could before I went home.


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## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

Macabre, spoiling and responsibility are two different things. I just know that I would never pay a trainer who would leave my horse for a few hours without thinking twice. If something happened to my horse in that trainers care, I would be after him faster than he could say "run". 

Northern, agreed.

Until anyone who is for tying and leaving the horse without any hesitation for 4+ hours has something happen they won't learn. Though, I'm sure one of you will learn if one of them has a pretty vet bill. xD 

Sadly, like the woman at my barn who had a horse hang itself. I know she will think twice.


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

This is usually the difference between 'English' thinkers and 'western' thinkers. English people think it's crazy to leave a horse tied, especially for long periods of time. (LOL--they are also the same people who have horses that *ONLY* can be groomed/saddled on crossties!!).

Western people will leave horses tied, not because they are careless or irressponsible or 'cruel'--but because THEIR HORSES HAVE BEEN TRAINED TO DO IT. 

I went to the university of Findlay, a very big western riding college. In a 300+ horse barn, EVERY horse tied in the stall and HUNDREDS of students tie them and leave them. Unmonitored. For hours.

Guess what? Horses aren't hanging themselves left and right and dying of dehydration, people. They're not pawing or freaking out. They're just standing, usually napping.

You can train a horse to stand. You can also train a horse to stand tied even when it's scared.

What you CAN'T do, is have a horse that ties only when it's calm, and leave it for hours. 

It's called training, people. Can we move on now?


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

Very mature to resort to the english/western stereotype. :/ I'm an English rider, and my two yeat old stands tied, either straight or crossed, with zero problems. The thing is, you NEVER KNOW when something can go wrong, and i'd rather be there when it did than be off having a good 'ol time when my horse is struggling. That's just irresponsibility.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Hooray! ^^^^^Great post, mayfield.

A horse that won't tie is a nuisance, nearly useless in the situations I ride in and can be dangerous. 

I think everybody that's posted in this thread agrees that horses need to stand tied, and it takes training to accomplish that. What the disagreement is about is what is an acceptable method of training to tie. 

Sadly, I only know one method of training a horse to tie; and that's tying them securely for increasing lengths of time. At some point they're going to fight the tie; the training occurs when they lose the fight, submit and stand quietly. As a trainer, you have to be prepared to make sure they lose the fight and thereby learn the lesson. 

I will admit to some ambivelence here: I had a boarder in my barn, a classic pet owner that talked baby talk to her horse and bought organic home made horse treats. Her otherwise lovely horse learned to break the tie, and because of that, she could no longer go on our long group trail rides or particpate in other barn activities. At one point, her horse, a sturdy draft cross, pulled a telephone pole post sunk three feet in the ground over at about a 30 degree angle. Couldn't pull it out of the ground, but gave it a heck of a tryl

Could I have retrained the horse to tie? Sure. Could I have done it quietly and diplomatically in the middle of my busy boarding barn without the owner or someone else having the vapors? Heck no.

I sent the horse to a local "problem horse" trainer for three days. I happen to know his method involved a very large oak tree, a tractor tire inner tube and a lot of deep sand around the oak tree. It cost the owner several hundred dollars, but the horse came back willing to stand tied. 

I was very glad the "problem horse" trainer accepted the liability of retraining the horse. And I was very glad the he was the big meanie who was cruel and nasty to poor sweet Diddly Dumplings and allowed me to retain a decent relationship with my client. I was very, very, very glad that the problem horse trainer didn't allow the owner to watch the process.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> I'm not sure what your point is. I dropped the rein and the horse stepped on it. I guess it was careless but I would like to point out that she wasn't tied and I was standing right there and she still got injured.
> 
> .


Not sure what type reins you use but I am assuming split reins since you dropped it. Maybe such an experienced horse trainer as your self should have reins that do not drop to the ground or a horse that doesn't put his head down when being handled. That may have avoided an accident.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Sadly, I only know one method of training a horse to tie; and that's tying them securely for increasing lengths of time. At some point they're going to fight the tie; the training occurs when they lose the fight, submit and stand quietly. As a trainer, you have to be prepared to make sure they lose the fight and thereby learn the lesson. 

.[/QUOTE]
There are safe ways to train a horse to tie one being the inner tube which we used years ago and I now use the tie blocker rings., I have never had one fight the tie and have a fight to lose. When fights occur injuries mental and physical can happen.


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## Fowl Play (Sep 22, 2009)

churumbeque said:


> Not sure what type reins you use but I am assuming split reins since you dropped it. Maybe such an experienced horse trainer as your self should have reins that do not drop to the ground or a horse that doesn't put his head down when being handled. That may have avoided an accident.


I know more people who use split reins in western than barrel/gaming reins. I am pretty sure split reins are a little common:wink:.



churumbeque said:


> Sadly, I only know one method of training a horse to tie; and that's tying them securely for increasing lengths of time. At some point they're going to fight the tie; the training occurs when they lose the fight, submit and stand quietly. As a trainer, you have to be prepared to make sure they lose the fight and thereby learn the lesson.
> 
> .


The horse my daughter rides is extremely herd bound and used to absolutely panic if he was left alone. Two of his pasture mates ride in my lesson so he's brought in and stands alone at the hitch rail for 90 minutes, waiting for my daughter's lesson to start. In March, he would panic, dig, scream, and figit and fuss. On Tuesday, (2 months of being tied one day a week) he stood there and fell asleep. No more freaking out, no more pacing, no more holes, just closed his eyes and went off to dream land. 

This would not have been accomplished had he not been tied out. No, it wasn't for an extremely long time, and people were around, but when we're in the covered arena, we can't hear or see him very well. In the outdoor it's a different story, but he didn't die, he learned to suck it up and deal.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

I look at is as a owner problem if something happens to a horse at the trainers while being tied. As long as the trainer ties the horse properly that is. By the time a horse goes to the trainers they should already know how to tie and stand quietly. Heck my 6 mo foals can do that for an extended period of time and they do even at shows tied to the trailer. If you show and show more then one horse the horse not being worked must stand tied and most of the time there is not going to be any one to watch them. Everyone is showing or getting a horse ready to show.

By the time I send a horse to the trainers they will stand tied for hours. 99% of them fall asleep while tied. One of my stallions who was tough to tie before he was weaned and tied regularly after would stand sleeping in his stall like he was tied.

If you send a horse to the trainers who will not stand tied then you are leaving it up to the trainer to teach them. They can not stand there for hours monitoring that horse they have others to work and ride. They have things that MUST be done. So either you take the time to teach the horse or leave it up to the trainer. If you want your horse monitored 100% of the time they are tied then it is up to you to either pay the trainer EXTRA or do it your self. At some point a horse will need to be tied when no one is around.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

churumbeque,

If you have personally trained several previously unbroken horses to tie quietly for long periods WITHOUT ever having the horse challenge, test or fight the tie, I wish you would share that method. Even the most docile and submissive horse I've worked with tests or challenges the tie at some point.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

churumbeque said:


> Not sure what type reins you use but I am assuming split reins since you dropped it. Maybe such an experienced horse trainer as your self should have reins that do not drop to the ground or a horse that doesn't put his head down when being handled. That may have avoided an accident.


As an experienced horse trainer I can tell you that accidents happen and that is how you gain experience. I believe when that happened I was 15 years old and I was not an experienced horse trainer. I am not perfect and have made mistakes worse than that but I learn from them and don't make them again. One of the best tools an aspiring horseman can have is the ability to look critically at themselves and thier horses. Until you develop that you will have a hard time progressing.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> One of the best tools an aspiring horseman can have is the ability to look critically at themselves and thier horses. Until you develop that you will have a hard time progressing.


Two thumbs up to this!


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

churumbeque said:


> Not sure what type reins you use but I am assuming split reins since you dropped it. Maybe such an experienced horse trainer as your self should have reins that do not drop to the ground or a horse that doesn't put his head down when being handled. That may have avoided an accident.


So you want a horse to be trained to never drop his head and then ride him in a single 'roping' rein that can be stepped through and cause a bigger wreck than a split rein? Okay :?.

Back to the OP. What you are describing to me doesn't sound out of the ordinary at all. If I sent a horse off to the trainer and went to check on him a week later and he was a little thinner and had small sores at the corners of his mouth, then I would know that the trainer had at least been doing something. If I saw something that I didn't like (like extreme weight loss, big cuts on the mouth that clearly happened at different times, spur marks, etc) then I would have a problem with the trainer. Unfortunately, their mouths are going to get sore and have red marks on the side. That is one of the downfalls of using a snaffle to start a colt. It just happens. On the rare occasion, you will get one that seems to understand what you want after being shown only once and you never have to really correct him, but those are 1 in 100 billion. If a horse is spoiled, it often takes harsher handling to get them trained because they have no respect for anything. They will lean on your hands and you have to correct that. If the horse won't stand still under saddle, the best way to teach it is to ride them until they are tired and then tie them up. If the horse won't stand tied, then that is something else they have to learn and the best way to teach them that is to ride them until they are tired and then tie them up. You have to leave them tied until they are standing quietly or they will never learn to stand quietly when tied. Even the riding them the first day is not such a horrible thing. 95% of the time, I will ride a horse the first day that I handle them and I have yet to 'traumatize' one by doing that.

I have just started training horses professionally and the people that I get horses from expect results. If I spent 30 days just doing groundwork preparing a horse for a rider, I would go out of business. At the end of 30 days, the owners expect to be able to come watch me ride their horse. They want them to be consistent at 3 gaits, stop, turn, back up, etc. Anyone with any lick of horse sense will expect more than basic saddle breaking in 3 months. Not all of us have money like some of those BNTs who can float by for 6 months just fiddling with a horse in the roundpen.


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

Sunny said:


> Very mature to resort to the english/western stereotype. :/ I'm an English rider, and my two yeat old stands tied, either straight or crossed, with zero problems. The thing is, you NEVER KNOW when something can go wrong, and i'd rather be there when it did than be off having a good 'ol time when my horse is struggling. That's just irresponsibility.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Very immature to think I only ride western dear. I have a two-year-old warmblood stud colt in my backyard right now and I'm pretty sure I didn't buy him for western pleasure....

I didn't say english RIDERS and Western RIDERS. I said 'thinkers'. There is a classic english mentality and a classic western mentality.

Please re-read.

Also, if it's just irresponsibility, then I'm pretty sure a huge university with hundreds of horses wouldn't do it, yes? Would be poor horsemanship and poor BUSINESS practice to have horses freaking out left and right and strangling themselves on the tie.

Oh, wait, that's right. They don't.

Because they're trained.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

mayfieldk said:


> Would be poor horsemanship and poor BUSINESS practice to have horses freaking out left and right and strangling themselves on the tie.
> 
> Oh, wait, that's right. They don't.
> 
> Because they're trained.


Love it and it is true for everyone.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

mayfieldk said:


> Very immature to think I only ride western dear. I have a two-year-old warmblood stud colt in my backyard right now and I'm pretty sure I didn't buy him for western pleasure....
> 
> I didn't say english RIDERS and Western RIDERS. I said 'thinkers'. There is a classic english mentality and a classic western mentality.
> *
> ...


I know Findlay Unv. Quite well. Show there quite often as they are quite close to me. Know quite a few people who go there and I know several the trainers/instructors there like Clark Bradly. Who is a NRHA Open Futurity Champion and NRHA Hall of Fame member. The horses there are not student horses or lesson horses those are client horses. People pay to send there horses there to be trained.


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## kmacdougall (Feb 12, 2010)

Oooh, I never post in training but I have to jump in on the mini english/western-ish debate going on here.
My jumper DOES. NOT. TIE. What's more annoying then this?? Probably having shrapnel embedded in your fingernails. :evil:
Since discovering RiosDad's neck rope idea, I've been using that. I recently tied my horse with it to a huge post, tied safely, and left him there. He was cool as a cucumber until I walked away. Then he lost his marbles and fought for about 30 minutes. Did I feel bad? Eh, a little. Did I go and release my poor little bebe from his personal hell? No frickin' way. I glanced at him off and on from my patio door (my house overlooks my upper paddock) every ten or so minutes to make sure something disastrous didn't happen. 
I left him like that for an hour, and he would have been there longer had I not had things to do all afternoon. I left him tied while I groomed him, hopefully he learned that good things do happen while tied, then turned him out. Is he worse for the wear? Nope.
To me, horses that tie are not a convenience. They're a necessity in many situations when I would need a horse to stand patiently tied.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

I don't think anyone is understanding one another. Everyone is misinterpreting what others are saying, so why don't we all just agree to disagree? We all obviously aren't going to change our opinions about the matter, so lets just leave it be. Agree to disagree. :]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

maura said:


> churumbeque,
> 
> If you have personally trained several previously unbroken horses to tie quietly for long periods WITHOUT ever having the horse challenge, test or fight the tie, I wish you would share that method. Even the most docile and submissive horse I've worked with tests or challenges the tie at some point.


As it said in my post that years ago we used the inner tube method now I use the tie blocker ring.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

churumbeque, 

What I am asking, very specifically, is how many green broken horses you have trained to tie? 

And trained by yourself, not in conjunction or in addition to someone else? 

And I also asked you, very specifically, beginning to end, what your process or method is for teaching an unbroken green horse to tie?

Since you've criticized other trainer's methods, and haven't offered an alternative, these are fair questions.


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## Lucentael (Apr 5, 2010)

It's as though this argument is about whether or not a horse should know how to stand tied for long periods of times. That isn't the point. It's about whether or not it's ideal they should be supervised while they are standing tied - which I believe they should be. Yes, you should be able to rely on your horse to stand tied safely while unsupervised - that's pretty much a given, since whether or not there comes a point in their life where they need to be tied for a period of time with no supervision, they need to be ready for it anyway. But does that mean they should be left completely unmonitored if you can help it? Personally my opinion is no. It's no surprise that horses find ways to hurt themselves, and as many have noted, they do so even if they are being supervised. But to me, not taking responsibility for a horse getting hurt when you weren't around to watch it and blaming it on the fact that horses get hurt anyway is just a sad excuse. It's kind of like saying kids are going to injure themselves whether you watch them or not, so just leave them to their own devices and don't bother watching them.

Yes, horse'll get hurt anyway, but a supervised accident versus a non-supervised accident is often like an ember versus an inferno. Fires happen. If you see a flame start while you are around, you will suffer a lot less damage by putting it out while the fire is still beginning than you would if you were not around when it started and were not there to put it out, resulting in it becoming a huge flame. Of course there would still be damage either way, but the amount of that damage isn't the same. If a horse spooked suddenly from being tied and someone was there to see it and help it, the horse has a lot better chance of suffering less damage than it would if it spooked while it was left completely alone.  




> He was cool as a cucumber until I walked away. Then he lost his marbles and fought for about 30 minutes. Did I feel bad? Eh, a little. Did I go and release my poor little bebe from his personal hell? No frickin' way. I glanced at him off and on from my patio door (my house overlooks my upper paddock) every ten or so minutes to make sure something disastrous didn't happen.
> I left him like that for an hour, and he would have been there longer had I not had things to do all afternoon. I left him tied while I groomed him, hopefully he learned that good things do happen while tied, then turned him out. Is he worse for the wear? Nope.
> To me, horses that tie are not a convenience. They're a necessity in many situations when I would need a horse to stand patiently tied.


 

I like what Kmacdougall put here because it really makes it seem to me that most of this argument is based on misunderstanding. I didn't see anyone say that a horse shouldn't know how to stand tied or be allowed to get away with not doing so. According to what she wrote, while she was not right beside her horse when teaching him to stand tied she was still supervising from afar without him knowing it, so in the case disaster struck she could deal with it, which I believe is excellent. In that case the horse cannot be dependent on her being there, yet unknowingly to him he was still being monitored.


As far as the situation with the OP goes, I personally do not think it's the brightest to leave the property while teaching a green horse to stand tied, leaving it completely unsupervised. To me that's just asking for it. 

Making the horse think it's alone and the horse actually being alone are two different things.


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## MaggiStar (Mar 19, 2010)

Just another view point whilst in America your horses must learn to tie for extended periods of time which i think is vital to a horses. 

In Ireland at shows you CANNOT leave your horse tied to a trailer at a show and walk off horses must be fully supervised at all times. Very annoying as if your alone getting ready if you want to even go to the toilet you must load back up into trailer
Also if i was to take my horse to local yards and tied them up and left them for several hour having an argument with a tree. I can honestly say id be called cruel etc.

This is very annoying come feed time in a yard you will see horses break there ropes to get dinner because they have leart that they can.

Whilst I believe tying is important for a horse to figure out how to tye on his own, I also feel HOW he is taught is neccessary to his training.
Different cultures however teach for different reasons. I can honestly say my horse needs to stand for around 6hours supervised. BUT in Anerica where week long hacking is normal practice a horse who will tie for a full night is essential for his own safety!


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## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

mayfieldk said:


> This is usually the difference between 'English' thinkers and 'western' thinkers. English people think it's crazy to leave a horse tied, especially for long periods of time. (LOL--they are also the same people who have horses that *ONLY* can be groomed/saddled on crossties!!).
> 
> Western people will leave horses tied, not because they are careless or irressponsible or 'cruel'--but because THEIR HORSES HAVE BEEN TRAINED TO DO IT.


I'm a western rider..


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

White Foot said:


> I'm a western rider..



I will try try try not to be snarky.

But I will refer you to a quote in my second post, which you clearly missed.

And I quote:

"Very immature to think I only ride western dear. I have a two-year-old warmblood stud colt in my backyard right now and I'm pretty sure I didn't buy him for western pleasure....

I didn't say english RIDERS and Western RIDERS. I said 'thinkers'. There is a classic english mentality and a classic western mentality.

Please re-read.

Also, if it's just irresponsibility, then I'm pretty sure a huge university with hundreds of horses wouldn't do it, yes? Would be poor horsemanship and poor BUSINESS practice to have horses freaking out left and right and strangling themselves on the tie.

Oh, wait, that's right. They don't.

Because they're trained."

End quote.

Clearly you do not have a western mindset. I ride dressage. Also ride APHA breed shows and western pleasure.

Darn sure better believe my horses tie!

The reason why horses get scared and get into trouble when tied (aka, the reason most people think they MUST be supervised) is because they are frightened, and cannot move their feet. When a frightened horse cannot move it's feet in the wild, it is dead. This makes a 'what the heck is that?' reaction turn into a 'clearly i will die if i can't break down this wall that is holding me here' reaction.

You can train a horse to realize that though it is scared when tied, _it will be okay._ It's much like 'bombproofing' a trail horse.

Hence, these horses can get scared when tied--and will not hurl themselves to the floor immediately.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

It has nothing to do with responsibility. It has EVERYTHING to do with a fear mentality. You people think you can bubble wrap everything and prevent an accident from ever occurring instead of actually being bothered to do some training or research and CREATE a safe environment instead of removing it all together.

mayfieldk - excellent posts and I couldn't agree more. I'd also be almost inclined to say it's almost a city/rural mindset moreso then an english/western mindset at times, from experience. Too many city kids with that fear mentality from growing up in the "big bad city" turning to riding as a hobby and convinced something awful will happen. Not all, as I myself am technically a city kid, but from associate I find the worst people in my area are these "city people gone country".

Have you ever heard the country song "I'm a Little More Country Then That?" :lol: Makes me think of the exact situation.

"If you want a brick home in a school zone
With the doors locked and alarms on
Girl, you’re way off track
I’m a little more country than that"


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

maura said:


> churumbeque,
> 
> What I am asking, very specifically, is how many green broken horses you have trained to tie?
> 
> ...


I am not sure why you can't understand the 2 methods I have said. I am not talking wild horses brought off the range although I would tie them the same but these are horses that I raised and worked with. I do not count how many horses over my life in working at a breeding stables and raising several of my own but I have never had a tieing accident. At the stable I was the only one who worked there and raised several foals that were then sold for racing. In raising my own which is 3 as I do count those. I worked with them by myself also. I must say that the horses I have worked with training on my own have been very successful in showing, trail and in manners.
I never said I was a trainer although I think being a "trainer" does not give you horse sense or common sense. It is just a title that any one can give themself. If you need further instruction look up tie blocker ring on the web. Julie Goodnight promotes another one similar also.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

> I have never had one fight the tie and have a fight to lose. When fights occur injuries mental and physical can happen. ​




This is the statement of yours that I am questioning. I find it hard to believe that you have broken that many horses to tie and have never had one fight the tie? 

If that's true, then I really want to know the method, because I know of no way to reliably train a horse to tie without at least once having the horse challenge or fight the tie. 

I also think there's way more potentional for mental and physical issues if the horse breaks the tie or can't reliably be tied. 

Finally, you questioned/contradicted several legitimate, credentialed trainers about their methods, which is fine, as long you can offer alternative methods, rather than a simple referral to a piece of equipment.




​


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

churumbeque said:


> I am not talking wild horses brought off the range although I would tie them the same but these are horses that I raised and worked with.


It's a good thing you only worked with barn raised gentle horses because if you tried the to tie a horse raised away from people with an inner tube or tie ring they would leave so fast the only evidence they had been there would be the smell of burned rope and a little dust. Not all horses are raised with constant contact with people. 

Why don't you just let your ego take a rest and realize that just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they are wrong. People have been tying horses since they were domesticated and the blocker tie ring and rubber inner tubes are a fairly recent inovation in the course of human history.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> It's a good thing you only worked with barn raised gentle horses because if you tried the to tie a horse raised away from people with an inner tube or tie ring they would leave so fast the only evidence they had been there would be the smell of burned rope and a little dust. Not all horses are raised with constant contact with people.
> 
> Why don't you just let your ego take a rest and realize that just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they are wrong. People have been tying horses since they were domesticated and the blocker tie ring and rubber inner tubes are a fairly recent inovation in the course of human history.


I can't believe you would bring up another persons ego as yours seems overly large. Just stating what has worked for me. I didn't say anyone was wrong just what I do and have had success.
Rubber inner tubes were around before my time so not recent to me. I do not think most people on this forum are working with wild mustangs either.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

maura said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> This is the statement of yours that I am questioning. I find it hard to believe that you have broken that many horses to tie and have never had one fight the tie?
> 
> ...


Several legitimate trainers use the same piece of equipment, unless you do not think Clinton Anderson or Julie Goodnight are legitimate. You do not have to use it but it is a usefull tool and I encourage anyone concerned with tieing a horse safely to try it.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

churumbeque said:


> Several legitimate trainers use the same piece of equipment, unless you do not think Clinton Anderson or Julie Goodnight are legitimate. You do not have to use it but it is a usefull tool and I encourage anyone concerned with tieing a horse safely to try it.


A tree and a rope has always been perfectly safe for me. Now who's got the ego? 

It's always safe until it isn't - that's something most people like to forget.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

Come on, guys, lets give it a rest. We're all friends, no reason to argue. We all have our own opinions, so lets just accept it and move on. We each have individual experience with different methods/situations, so take what you can from other's advice and let the rest be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

Has anyone talked to the trainer? I would definitely want to know HOW my pony got hurt. If the trainer was kevinshorses, I'd probably be more than satisfied. If I was told, oh, that's the way it always goes, then I'd take my pony away. Sadly, there ARE trainers who rough a horse to GET him sore, or as they say, sensitive, before they even begin.

As for leaving a saddle on, seems to be more risk to the saddle than the horse. But I don't do stalls, so I don't know.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

I like both Clint Anderson and Julie Goodnight; I wasn't questioning their legitimacy. 

However, if someone asked me, as a trainer, what my method was for training a certain skill, and they only response I could articulate was to 1.) buy a piece of equipment and 2.) reference another trainer's work, I think I would lose credibility pretty quickly. 

"How would you recommend starting a horse over fences?"

"Ummmm, first I'd get some cavaletti, and then I'd watch a George Morris video." is not an adequate answer, and not one that's likely to encourage people to send me horses to train over fences. 

Back to the OP: you've gotten a variety of responses, but it seems like most of the professionals and experienced people don't have a problem with the way the pony was handled. The most divisive issue seems to be whether or not the pony was supervised while left in tack. Hope that helped you with your questions.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

maura said:


> I like both Clint Anderson and Julie Goodnight; I wasn't questioning their legitimacy.
> 
> However, if someone asked me, as a trainer, what my method was for training a certain skill, and they only response I could articulate was to 1.) buy a piece of equipment and 2.) reference another trainer's work, I think I would lose credibility pretty quickly.
> 
> ...


At NO TIME have I ever stated I was a trainer so I referenced credible people that endorse the product when you asked my experience which really doesn't matter. Didn't know you had to be a trainer to give an opinion or why I need to type something out that was explained by a professional on the site that sells the item. 
I do not want people to send me a horse for training so my methods or experience doesn't really matter just offering a way to tie a horse. You must be imagining most of what is in your head or have my post confused with something else.


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## Lucentael (Apr 5, 2010)

> It has nothing to do with responsibility. It has EVERYTHING to do with a fear mentality. You people think you can bubble wrap everything and prevent an accident from ever occurring instead of actually being bothered to do some training or research and CREATE a safe environment instead of removing it all together.


I didn't see anyone claim that a horse shouldn't be taught to stand tied. And accidents happen? Yeah, they do. No one denied that either. But if there weren't accident prevention measures taken there'd be a whole lot more of them and a they'd be a whole lot worse. No one encouraged neglecting training or research or the decision to not teach a horse to stand tied. If training was one-hundred-percent "fool proof" there would be little need for safety measures, but it's not. Horses are not machines that will never forget what they're taught. Their instincts are there for a reason, and even the most desensitized horse is not completely prone to converting back to them if they feel the need. Accidents happen even among the best. 

Regardless, that is not to say teaching a horse to stand tied alone should be neglected, because it _shouldn't_. However, if a horseperson leaves their super-trained horse tied and unattended and that horse 'somehow' hurts or kills itself in their absence, that is that horseperson's responsibility (or in the opinion of some, lackthereof) as well as their fault. That scenario has happened a lot - enough to make this a large issue.



> It's always safe until it isn't - that's something most people like to forget.


Also known as "there is no consequence until you get one". Not a very good line of advice.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> A tree and a rope has always been perfectly safe for me. Now who's got the ego?
> 
> It's always safe until it isn't - that's something most people like to forget.


 Ego has nothing to do with suggesting a product and mentioning trainers who are well known that use it. I do not understand why people are against a product that actually has a purpose, is inexpensive, easy to use and can prevent a disaster. Obviously just tieing a horse to a tree does not work for every one and bad stuff can happen. Just read through the post of those that cannot tie thier horse at all. They might find this works for them


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

I like the tie ring I have used a similar philosophy to help horses that were overly spooky or bad to pull back but it doesn't work for every horse and it is not the best way to initially teach a horse to tie in my opinion. Saying that your experience doesn't matter because you don't claim to be a horse trainer is fine until you start argueing with those of us that do have alot of experience and are horse trainers. It's called put up or shut up in rougher circles than this.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

> I have never had one fight the tie and have a fight to lose. When fights occur injuries mental and physical can happen.


 

Churumbeque,

This is the statement that started the dialog between you and I. You didn't claim to be a trainer, but you did contradict one, and you cited your experience to back it up. ​ 
It's perfectly reasonable for me to then ask what your experience is, and for you to provide some detail or explanation to back up your statement. If such a method does exist, I genuinely want to know about it. I can certainly learn from other people of this board, I have before and I hope to again. If you truly have a better method, I truly want to know about it. If the real explanation is that you made that statement in haste and are now on the spot to defend it, that's cool. I can understand that. ​ 
The fact that you can't explain your method, or how it's possible that the horse never fights, challenges or tests the tie and instead cite trainer's videos is, well, silly. It would have taken less time to type a one paragraph explanation of the method than your multiple defenses of you initial statment. I also suspect that neither CA or Julie Goodnight would make such a reckless claim as "I have *never* had one fight..." Never is a dangerous word to use when talking about horse training. But I promise to stop pressuring you about this statement. ​ 
There is opinion and then there is informed opinion. While everyone is entitled to an opinion, when you give OR critique training advice; others are entitled to question how well informed that opinion is. ​ ​


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

maura said:


> Churumbeque,​
> 
> 
> This is the statement that started the dialog between you and I. You didn't claim to be a trainer, but you did contradict one, and you cited your experience to back it up. ​
> ...


I am not contradicting you I just am stating the experience I have had. I have never had one fight so that was my statement as it is true in my situation. Not sure why you are making it something that is not. I truley haven't had problems of this sort but the animals I am around tend to trust me also. Now I have seen other have problems and then beat the horse after it broke the halter and that is not how I would have handled it. If she had it tied with the ring it wouldn't have broken the halter. Just because someone has a title of trainer does not make them a good trainer as with any career. We have a local trainer taht inexperienced people think he is god and more experienced horse people laugh at him, have no respect for him and think he is a terrible horseman. Have you tried to figure out what is causing you to have so many tying issues.


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## Fowl Play (Sep 22, 2009)

maura said:


> However, if someone asked me, as a trainer, what my method was for training a certain skill, and they only response I could articulate was to 1.) buy a piece of equipment and 2.) reference another trainer's work, I think I would lose credibility pretty quickly.


What is wrong with a trainer referencing another trainer? They have to learn from someone, and hearing that my instructor still takes riding lessons herself tells me that she is willing to be a constant learner. I would be more worried about a person who never considered anyone else's ways. I think it's a sign of a good trainer who can say "I like xxx's methods because..." and "I like this equipment because..." 


The topic of ego has come up quite a bit in this thread...I think a sign of an over inflated ego is a person who thinks their way is the best way, without being willing to consider someone else's ideas.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

churumbeque said:


> Have you tried to figure out what is causing you to have so many tying issues.


When people bring you horses that they have screwed up you see all kinds of problem and with more frequency than the average horse owner. That was the point in asking for a number of horses that you have trained to tie. If the number is 200 then that is terrifically impressive. If the number is 5 then it is unextrordinary.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

*You're not claiming to be a trainer? You made my day!*

I like the fact that Churumbeque did not claim to be a trainer. Plus, there's nothing wrong with suggesting what's worked for you, whether it be a tool or the teaching of a certain trainer. 

Here's what I saw PP do: he wrapped the rope around the hitching rail a couple of times, held the other end, and let it out as the untrained horse freaked, but held onto the rope, then drew it in incrementally, the old approach & retreat. I liked that, because the horse wasn't fighting a solid "wall", was eased up on before it freaked, due to feeling trapped! If there's a way to prevent the panic, a true horseman uses that way.


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

kevinshorses said:


> When people bring you horses that they have screwed up you see all kinds of problem and with more frequency than the average horse owner. That was the point in asking for a number of horses that you have trained to tie. If the number is 200 then that is terrifically impressive. If the number is 5 then it is unextrordinary.


I was thinking six. Which is why the answer was extremely vague--the number is low.

Also, the tie-blocker ring was not made to TRAIN a horse to tie. I think it even says on the package, 'not for horses who are not trained to tie.'

So, now you're left with one tool. Why have something that stretches if they 'don't fight it at all?'


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Okay, guys. I think everyone needs to step back and take a breath. This thread has gone way off topic and is likely no more help to the OP except to make them wonder what the heck is wrong with us.

I suggest that if someone wants to continue the "to tie or not to tie and how" debate, maybe a new thread should be started.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> When people bring you horses that they have screwed up you see all kinds of problem and with more frequency than the average horse owner. That was the point in asking for a number of horses that you have trained to tie. If the number is 200 then that is terrifically impressive. If the number is 5 then it is unextrordinary.


 The point is it doesn't matter if the number was 0 to make a suggestion. You just like to argue any thing to death if it is not your way. Over my life I have seen far more than 2000 horses tied successfully and maybe 3-4 that were not.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

I did some Googling and found this on another forum:

"THe point of the tie blocker ring is to be able to have resistance. When the horse pulls back, he can still pull the rope through, but it's hard. You teach the horse to tie with the ring, getting him to yield his hind and move back and forth while holding the end of the lead rope your self. Eventually getting so the leadrope is shorter and the horse stands nicely. 
Basically teaching your horse that he can't pull back even before he gets it in his mind. The problem with horses that pull bull back is that they are pulling back because they are scared, if you first teach them that there is nothing to be afraid by showing them that they can still move, they feel comfortable being tied. 

Generally, the horses that develop tie problems are the ones that are tied short, pull back, sit back and the panick. Teach them that they don't need to panick and they are fine."

This is the type of explanation I was looking for, from the folks that advocate the method. Makes sense, and is not that different from how I would go about it. However, by my definitions the horse does challenge, test and fight the tie using this method. The difference is rather than challenging or fighting something fixed; in this method there is a *controlled* release of the pressure when the horse challenges or tests the tie. 

How I wish someone could have provided this info 3 - 4 pages ago.


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## LoveStory10 (Oct 31, 2009)

Sorry guys, I just want to add; has anyone else noticed the OP has vanished?

Also, the horses at my barn do tie, but we dont tie them, as we never have any need to.


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