# 'Biting Up'/'Checking Up'



## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

I know pleasure trainers tie their horse's head to the saddle all the time, for hours. It's supposed to make them soft, but I just think it makes them dead/lean on the contact even more. 

I just either stand with them in a halter or sit on them in the saddle and flex them for several minutes every day, and my horses have always been super soft. So I never really felt the need to do this to mine. :/


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Just like anything else, done _correctly_, this method is a very effective "hands-off" method of teaching a horse to give to the bit each way.

I use this method myself...though never in a curb bit as was posted in that link. I also don't "tie" the horse around. I take a single wrap around the saddle horn that gives enough resistance to teach the horse to give, but they can get loose in an emergency. I also never leave the horse alone. I am always within sight or earshot of the horse that's tied around.

There is also a "sweet spot" that is ideal for this method. Tie their head any farther to the side and they learn to lean or they panic and flip over. Tie it any looser and they don't learn to give the way they should.









The only reason I use this method (and I really don't much anymore because I've got more time now) is that it allowed me to do other things like ride another horse or get started on chores while the horse was learning.

It's not something that happens for hours (or at least it _shouldn't_, even the most well-mannered horse would get tired and lock up by then), but maybe 10-15 minutes on average. Sometimes it only takes 5, sometimes it takes more, depending on the horse.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

^^ What smrobs is describing is a technique I read about for training young cutting horses. The guy who wrote it was pretty successful & also rode his horses for fun, so I don't think they suffered much harm from it. I have never tried it and probably never will, since it doesn't match the needs of any of my horses.

I certainly have never heard of anyone doing it to an extreme where the curb shank cuts thru the horse's chin.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I use this technique. I check up between the front legs, to the stirrups, or as smrobs posted. My reins will break away, and I know this because I've had it happen. It's definitely something you have to be careful with, or you and the horse will get hurt.

I have had good results. I often check between the front legs and long trot/lope them around the round pen, and then get on and work them soft into my hand. I've never had a serious injury from it, but there is always that initial "wtf" moment from the horse before they get the gist of what's going on.

I would post pics but facebook isn't loading right now...I'll be back with them, lol


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I should also add it's important to only use a *snaffle.* I would NEVER check up with a curb bit.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Here are other news reports:

Horse Death Blamed On Controversial Procedure

Animal Control investigating death of local horse - San Diego, California News Station - KFMB Channel 8 - cbs8.com

I am waiting to here from other witnesses that were with me that day...the horse I saw, wasn't tied too far around to the side....but I don't know where that point begins either....however, the horse was very agitated, walking in a tight circle and there was nobody around.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

smrobs said:


> Just like anything else, done _correctly_, this method is a very effective "hands-off" method of teaching a horse to give to the bit each way.
> 
> I use this method myself...though never in a curb bit as was posted in that link. I also don't "tie" the horse around. I take a single wrap around the saddle horn that gives enough resistance to teach the horse to give, but they can get loose in an emergency. I also never leave the horse alone. I am always within sight or earshot of the horse that's tied around.
> 
> There is also a "sweet spot" that is ideal for this method. Tie their head any farther to the side and they learn to lean or they panic and flip over. Tie it any looser and they don't learn to give the way they should.


The horse I saw, had it's head much lower seeking a way out of the situation. It was clearly agitated and walking in a tight circle. I do believe it was a shanked bit.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Horses can fall and hurt themselves at any time; Checked up or not. I do not leave my horses unattended. I can always at least see what's going on and will cut the rein if it doesn't break.


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

I've only seen one trainer do this, and it was because the horse wouldn't yield to the bit. The trainer didn't leave the horse unattended though. She just walked to the side of the arena to talk with us while she watched the horse.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

What a shame. Looked like a beautiful horse. I hate seeing trainers cause a horse's death, hence why im afraid to send my horse to a trainer.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

I'm sorry but my view of events has become colored by the fact that they can't spell controversial correctly in the first link,makes you wonder what else is correct or wrong.

As to biting round, most people I know use the method, and done correctly it is very effective, like anything else, done wrong it is a disaster looking for a place to happen.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I have used this method for many years. BUT, it, like any other technique, must be used with skill and common sense. It is no better than the person using it.

It can be used with a shank bit as long as the horse is pretty far along with training and the shank is loose -- swivels where the shank attaches to the mouth-piece. 

Yes, there is a 'sweet spot'. This the the amount of bend and tuck that is comfortable to the horse and gives the horse the opportunity give a half inch more and release ALL pressure. If the horse cannot give a little more to release the pressure, the method is being used incorrectly. Obviously, if a horse is scarred and rubbed raw by the curb strap or chain, it has been done badly (waaay too short) and not where the horse can get away from the pressure at all.

I consider checking a horse around or back to be more effective than when 95% of riders try to accomplish the same thing in the saddle. Why? A horse can give himself instant release or relief from doing the right thing. Even a good rider cannot reward the right thing as quickly and as consistently as the horse can reward himself. Done correctly, it is an extremely effective method. It should always be done in a snaffle on a green horse and only be done in a curb that is loose shanked with a better trained horse. No horse should ever be left unattended. When I use it on a green horse, I use a full cheek bit so it can never be pulled through the horse's mouth. I also use a big rubber-band tied to the back cinch ring. I cut a section out of an old inner-tube and it makes a big rubber-band to tie the rein to. A narrow one is real stretchy while a wider one is tougher but still gives. I never want a horse to be able to bruise the bars of their mouth. 

This trainer, Mark Aballo, is not famous or a 'big name trainer'. He is not even listed in the NRHA directory of trainers. I have never heard of him.

As for being afraid to send a horse to a trainer --- go watch a trainer for a few training sessions. You can easily tell the kind but still effective ones from the harsh and downright mean ones. Actually, just about every horse injury or death I know of happened in someone's back-yard. Peoples' lack of knowledge and lack of knowing how to use any technique can go very badly when a 1200# animal has a 'come-apart'. Most broken necks and legs I have heard about came from simply tying a horse up wrongly or doing something as stupid as opening the back door on a trailer before releasing the horse's head first.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Cherie said:


> I consider checking a horse around or back to be more effective than when 95% of riders try to accomplish the same thing in the saddle. Why? A horse can give himself instant release or relief from doing the right thing. Even a good rider cannot reward the right thing as quickly and as consistently as the horse can reward himself.


What I've always done is similar to checking them up, but done with hands... I hold the rein, with my hand rested on the front of the saddle, find that spot where they can give a little more and can't pull away. With my hand rested I can hold when they pull away, so the pressure isn't released wrong, and my hand doesn't move if they give. 
I find many people when they teach this without resting their hand on something have a tendency to keep pulling the horse around, even when the horse gave a little. 
I guess mine is the same as checking a horse up accept it's done in my hand, so I can easily drop a rein.

I've also done this from the ground with a surcingle - keeping my hands touching each other. Having that physical place to keep your hand ensures the release happens at the right time, but having control on the reins in an emergency.


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

I guess my view of this practice has been colored by the type of people who use it in my area. Before coming to the forum I had NEVER seen this technique done correctly, and its a technique that everyone and their mother uses in my area. The mare that I've helped retrain and who is my go-to horse for ranch work is the result of poor technique with checking up (here it is calling tying around, though) and she was a MESS when we got her. Typically when its done here, the horse is bitted in a 6-8" curb and tied so that its nose is nearly touching the shoulder with no release, and it isn't just looped around the horn or to a rubber inner tube either. The horses I've seen undergoing the process have been left for an hour or more at a time and are usually soaked with sweat and shaking by the end. Corona (the mare) has scars in her mouth from it and won't ride in a curb because of it, and it took me a very long time to get her responsive to the bit and willing to take contact without blowing up because she only associated it with pain.

Seeing it described as on here though, with the head just slightly turned in, for no more than 20 minutes or so, under close supervision in a snaffle...I guess I can see how it could be of use for young horses, especially when its explained as the horse being able to release the pressure for itself. So I don't disagree with the method...IF someone knows what they're doing, and IF the horse can have substantial release when it does what it needs to do. Its not my method of choice though, just because I've seen how terribly wrong it can go in inexperienced hands, and I wouldn't trust myself to do it correctly.


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

Yeah, I've always witnessed the extreme end of things like Endiku. Though the milder version is still not something I will be doing to my horses, but I get where people are coming from now. I do what PunksTank does with great success. I just like to be hands on. That way you're also a participant in developing that "feel" for yourself, along with your horse.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Endiku, that is horrifying! What a way to ruin a horse.


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## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

I've seen it done, and IMO it's a perfectly ok. It's almost like using side reins when riding english. I've even seen a trainer do it in a curb, not tight, but with the slack just taken out of the rein. The horse was 100% supervised by the trainer and owner in a round pen. The rein could have been pulled loose if it was an emergency situation. He fussed for a few minutes then after that he was going WTC with his head down and slightly bent in. This trainer uses the method on all his horses. None have scars under their chins, all are very soft and carry their head low. 

It sounds like this bottom feeder tied this horse way to tight, with no safety release, and put the horse into a pure panic mode. It also sounds like this horse had an unlucky fall leading to a head trauma. 

This method is only as cruel as the person carrying it out. Tied reasonably, supervised and safely you will get good results. Tie hard, in a big bit, with no supervision, beat the horse and accidents will happen. *This sounds like a cruel person, not a cruel practice. *


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## Cynical25 (Mar 7, 2013)

Thanks for a great post, Cherie! 

Proper tying around has it's place, IMO. It was helpful with a few horses I've worked with, but wasn't employed with others. It's one of those things you keep in your mental training arsenal - you may or may not choose to use it depending on an individual horse's needs, abilities, etc. I've always sought out mentors and trainers who's methods I could ethically stand behind, so I've not seen any extreme/negative/abusive use of this technique in person.


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

We do this often to the horses in training. If they have a problem bending a certain way we use side reins (that are breakable) and ease their head around to teach them that it's okay to bend and move and yield to pressure. Some horses need it and some don't, for the ones that need it they're only bitted like this for a little bit before training begins. As Smrobs stated, a rider often cannot give release the exact moment it's needed. If it's done correctly I believe it's a valuable training tool that can help the horse bend better on the ground before it ever has anyone in the saddle. 

That being said, when it's done wrong it has horrific consequences. Personally the only time we ever experienced an incident with doing this was when the horse freaked out and began doing circles. What the owner had neglected to tell us was that the horse had been tied the wrong way and hit its head when it fell resulting in brain damage.


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## BreakableRider (Aug 14, 2013)

This is one of those 'normal' practices that I just really do not agree with at all for the most part. 

For the most part I hear this done on green horses. Why? Why would you want to have the same pressure on a greenie for any amount of time that is constant? Any half decent rider can teach softness much quicker than it takes to tie a horse around. Tie around too long and you have a horse that's going to be sore and is even more uneducated than when you started. The horse also doesn't learn if it should stand or move. 

Personally with a greenie I want things as black and white as possible. I do the same as Punk, I teach this with my hands. If a horse goes to fight you can move with them to keep that fight from escalating or turning to panic. Personally I think it's bull that a horse is going to give themselves a better release. Why? Either way (tied around or with a trainer) the horse is putting slack in the rein, with a rider you can give a bigger release and let that horse relax afterwards, they won't be stuck in that position. IMNSHO if you don't have the timing to release properly with your hands you shouldn't be tying around either. 

I've tied around two horses in my years as a trainer, both were 'kid horses' that had learned that it was a handy trick that as soon as the child asked them to turn to yank their head around the other direction, unseating their rider and getting out of work. One of these mares was strong enough that when I did ask her to give, before I even took the slack out she had yanked so hard she dislocated my shoulder. In both cases these horses went back through the groundwork then I loosely tied them around. At that point I then asked them to move around int he round pen at a walk or jog. They were put in a loose ring snaffle and already knew how to disengage their hindquarters and move their front end. With myself in the roundpen it was easy for them to understand to move either end away from me, in the process following their nose and getting soft through their entire body, including their mouth. If they wanted to pull on themselves fine but after a couple laps it wasn't fun and they couldn't get stiff enough through their body to do so very hard. Under 5 minutes they were tied around on either horse. After that I went back and taught the horse to flex with my hands. 

IMO tying around is just another gadget I don't have much use for.


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## xdressage (Jul 14, 2013)

Never heard of this method before. And I'm not sure I've understood it correctly, cause i really can't tell why this method would be necessary(especially not on a green horse!!) or how it's any better than tying a horse down behind the vertical and leaving it like that for longer periods of time to teach it suppleness, giving to the bit, a false headset or whatever.
I get why it might seem like a god idea if you don't have much time or patience for training, but it's just not for me or my way of training.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

I used it twice, once for a gelding that was naturally stiff. I have never seen another like him, stiff as a board from day one. He tried to ignore the bit, resist it, fight it, any thing other than softening up. This technique worked wonders on him. The other time was with a very cantankerous filly. The first day the BO went into the stall, she came up curios, then lightning fast, wheeled around and kicked the BO in both knees. she was 4 months old. When she was first learning to carry a bit(and pretty much every other first in her life), she fought and fought and fought. It didn't matter which bit, or how gentle, or what you were asking her to do. By tying her around slightly, she was able to teach herself to give, and learn to stop fighting, in half an hour.

I don't think it needs to be done on all horses, and I personally would not do it without a full cheek snaffle on, no curbs. As has been mentioned, it has to be supervised, and the handler has to know what they are doing.


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## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

xdressage said:


> Never heard of this method before. And I'm not sure I've understood it correctly, cause i really can't tell why this method would be necessary(especially not on a green horse!!) or how it's any better than tying a horse down behind the vertical and leaving it like that for longer periods of time to teach it suppleness, giving to the bit, a false headset or whatever.
> I get why it might seem like a god idea if you don't have much time or patience for training, but it's just not for me or my way of training.


It's really no different then lunging in side reins (or one side rein) for 15 or 20 minutes. The horse naturally teaches himself to give to the bit and not hang on it like a head rest. The horse is only "battling" it out with himself instead of a rider forcing him into it. It gives immiediate release when the horse is doing it correctly. The horse should *not* be pulled around so hard his chin is touching his shoulder! He should be slightly bent to the inside, in a (normally, to most horses) _comfortable position_. IMO, less then a 40 degree angle, even less when starting out. It *should be* done in addition to other training, obviously. It *should never* be done for hours on end!! In the right hands it can be a very useful training tool, especially if you have many horses to train. Do some biting up for a few minutes until they figure out the release, then carry out the remainder of the lesson on their backs. Then on to the next one. 

Different strokes for different folks I guess. If you wouldn't use it on your horses thats dandy, but I've ridden plenty who have had this method used on them and I haven't met a horse with "holes in its training".


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## Roperchick (Feb 1, 2010)

Done the Right way, I've done it with some of my show horses. Never a greenie only those that have a very solid base and just need a little more work....the right way. Always monitored never left alone


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

SlideStop said:


> It's really no different then lunging in side reins (or one side rein) for 15 or 20 minutes. The horse naturally teaches himself to give to the bit and not hang on it like a head rest. The horse is only "battling" it out with himself instead of a rider forcing him into it. It gives immiediate release when the horse is doing it correctly. The horse should *not* be pulled around so hard his chin is touching his shoulder! He should be slightly bent to the inside, in a (normally, to most horses) _comfortable position_. IMO, less then a 40 degree angle, even less when starting out. It *should be* done in addition to other training, obviously. It *should never* be done for hours on end!! In the right hands it can be a very useful training tool, especially if you have many horses to train. Do some biting up for a few minutes until they figure out the release, then carry out the remainder of the lesson on their backs. Then on to the next one.
> 
> Different strokes for different folks I guess. If you wouldn't use it on your horses thats dandy, but I've ridden plenty who have had this method used on them and I haven't met a horse with "holes in its training".


it's not really like lunging with side reins, because side reins should be adjusted that the if the horse lifts from teh shoulders and flexs lightly at the poll, there will be no bit pressure. To do this does not take near the muscle tension that holding the head to a 40 degree angle off to the side will do. A horse has to have muscles on the side of his neck contracted to keep the head off to the side. contracted for a half hour at a time. Seems like that would build stiffness. Maybe it does build muscle strength there, but do you want those muscles, on the side of the neck, developed? 
Don't you want the base of the neck, where it comes out of the chest, and the part of the neck just in front of the withers to be developed?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

The book I saw it in was "Cutting" by Leon Harrel. Page 51. I'd show his picture of doing it, but it looks like the picture smrobs showed of her horse. He wrote, "_The horse is left alone, but observed, in a safe pen for about 15 minutes. He'll learn to give his head to relieve the pressure of a direct pull._"

Cutting (Western Horseman Books): Leon Harrel: 9780911647150: Amazon.com: Books

He also wrote:

"_Make sure that your chosen trainer has as much compassion and respect for your horse as they do for you. Do not let them beat up your horse! That is not training, it is ABUSE. Just like yourself, your horse will develop and flourish under positive conditions. It will defeat your purpose if your horse is destroyed in the process of your training program.

Many trainers are only interested in selling you a new horse, rather than working with the one you purchased from someone else. Don’t be the next victim of these so called professionals. They are the reason so many new cutters abandon their dreams after only a year or two, and so many talented horses learn to hate their jobs._"

http://www.leonharrel.com/LeonsStories/KnowYourHorseKnowYourTrainer.pdf

Leon Harrel Cutting Clinics


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## Cynical25 (Mar 7, 2013)

tinyliny said:


> it's not really like lunging with side reins, because side reins should be adjusted that the if the horse lifts from teh shoulders and flexs lightly at the poll, there will be no bit pressure. To do this does not take near the muscle tension that holding the head to a 40 degree angle off to the side will do. A horse has to have muscles on the side of his neck contracted to keep the head off to the side. contracted for a half hour at a time. Seems like that would build stiffness. Maybe it does build muscle strength there, but do you want those muscles, on the side of the neck, developed?
> Don't you want the base of the neck, where it comes out of the chest, and the part of the neck just in front of the withers to be developed?


But how many use side reins the way you just described? Training methods are only as good as the person performing them.

My current 2 year old has been tied around a combined total of 14 minutes over two different days, not 30 minutes at a time. I received the response I was looking for and quit. There are other ways I could have arrived at this point (responsive to a pinkie's worth of rein pressure from the ground, as we aren't riding yet,) but for various reasons this is the one I chose for this particular horse on those particular days. A different day, a different horse, maybe a different course of action would have been taken.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

My two sense worth. It's a short cut as the handler seems to think he's too busy to stay with the horse and do it by hand. Two, if done for two long, the neck muscles become sore. What a way to teach a horse to bend!


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## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

> it's not really like lunging with side reins, because side reins should be adjusted that the if the horse lifts from teh shoulders and flexs lightly at the poll, there will be no bit pressure. To do this does not take near the muscle tension that holding the head to a 40 degree angle off to the side will do. A horse has to have muscles on the side of his neck contracted to keep the head off to the side. Contracted for a half hour at a time. Seems like that would build stiffness. Maybe it does build muscle strength there, but do you want those muscles, on the side of the neck, developed?
> Don't you want the base of the neck, where it comes out of the chest, and the part of the neck just in front of the withers to be developed?


Sorry, that how it was described to me. Maybe it was a bad analogy. As for the degree, i mentioned comfort of the horse. My horse could hold 40 degrees easily if she needed a "dont resist my hands" refresher but i would never expect a greenie to!! Nor would I expect my horse to hold her head long like that, maybe minutes. If anyone was going to bit up at 40 degrees it should be for very short sessions. Under saddle i'll flex my horses head to her shoulder and ask her to hold it a few seconds. Sessions should all be kept short as a "ok, you get the point horsey?" then carried onto under saddle or ground driving work. Biting up isn't ment to be done for long amounts of time, as in session time or as in weeks at a time. Of course there should be breaks in the session and changes of direction. A few minutes a couple times shouldn't stiffen or build improper muscling. Sorry if my post was unclear.


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## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

This guy does a pretty good job of explaining, taking it slow with the horse and he even transfers it to under saddle! 

Greg Robinson Horsemanship - How to bit up your horse Part 1 - YouTube
Greg Robinson Horsemanship - Bitting up your horse part 2 - YouTube


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Here are a couple horses I have checked up between the front legs.

This one is a horse who has been checked up before, and sometimes I will check them up loosely for ten minutes then the last five or so tighter before getting on.



















Another gelding who had learned to throw his head up like a giraffe. He was brought to me after a vet check. He was just being a jerk. He now travels with his head like this all the time, after one checking up session through the D rings.










The palomino mare actually broke those reins when she tripped, came back up and hit the reins then threw her head. They broke away immediately, then we fixed them and she continued about as if nothing happened.

I use this method on any horse I feel needs it. Not all of them get it, but some do. It works for me, doesn't mean it has to work for everyone, and there are more ways to do it than between the legs and the D rings like shown above.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

I can say that the reining trainer I sent my guy to used this method, and it finally stopped him throwing his head! 
only for 15-20 minutes, and he was watched in the round pen. Walked around. Nothing exciting at all.


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

I'm very glad I have a horse who has always carried herself naturally. A couple transitions, changes of direction, ask for her shoulder to come up, and she's good to go - for a yearling in a round pen no less. Very lucky. Now all I have to do is keep out of her way. Too much pressure in her face and she shuts down.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Bitting up isn't used to put a horse in a frame. It is used to teach a horse to yield to the bit instead of resisting it. And the theory, I believe, is that it takes the human out of the equation so the horse doesn't think of it as 'fighting with the human'. That is what I've read, anyways...and from that perspective, it makes sense to me - done right.


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

bsms said:


> Bitting up isn't used to put a horse in a frame. It is used to teach a horse to yield to the bit instead of resisting it. And the theory, I believe, is that it takes the human out of the equation so the horse doesn't think of it as 'fighting with the human'. That is what I've read, anyways...and from that perspective, it makes sense to me - done right.


I just prefer to think of it as _working with the human,_ instead of fighting with itself. If a horse thinks every time it moves its legs it gets hit in the mouth with a bit, not only is the horse going to give to the bit way behind the vertical, but it's going to be afraid to move forward for fear of being in pain. Short striding, moving on the forehand, bracing for balance, behind the contact, etc. 

Versus using my hands to encourage my horse to move into contact regardless of leg movement without fear of getting popped in the mouth if they have to nose out for balance. I want my horse to be comfortable holding the bit, and to not drop out behind it or evade it, or learn to brace in the poll. It just seems like things only good human hands can teach a young horse.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I can only go by what I've read, so if I'm accidentally putting words into anyone's mouth, I apologize in advance.

In the book I've got, he discusses using it 1-2 times for 10-15 minutes each, maybe less, to teach a young or green horse that if you feel pressure on the left side of the snaffle, move your head right and the pressure will go away. It has nothing to do with teaching a horse how to be ridden 'on the bit' or with constant contact. That is more typical of English riding, or something a western rider who wants it teaches from horseback.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

"put pressure on the LEFT side of the snaffle-move your head RIGHT to relieve the pressure..."???? This sounds backward to me, but then I have had my "mom" sized glass of wine tonite......so it may be me, but that seems bass akwards.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

As you pull on a D-ring with the right hand, the left D-ring will put some pressure on the side of the horse's mouth. It also puts pressure on the right bar, but I guess I was thinking of this as a cruder type step, where the goal is to teach the horse to yield to pressure. My horses got their initial bit training in a full cheek snaffle, so maybe it is just how I'm visualizing things. My apologies if I'm confusing things.


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## Northernstar (Jul 23, 2011)

*Still reeling from the shock of seeing the actual news story and wiping tears* *from my eyes....*Fellow forum members, (many who have owned horses long before I have!) How could one justify this 'training' in any way? Observe videos of horses in the wild/horses in pastures, etc. galloping and acting freely in their herds...Then look at photos of them in pens with their heads tied up, (no offense, but even mildly, is that_ *really*_ necessary??) The 'owner' in the video had a _consistent smirk_ on her face while speaking, and it was _more_ than obvious she didn't care less. _Our horses bend to our will more than enough,_ _don't you think?_ *How fortunate and with privilege to have such beautiful* _*and forgiving creatures in our keeping.*_


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## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

Northernstar said:


> *Still reeling from the shock of seeing the actual news story and wiping tears* *from my eyes....*Fellow forum members, (many who have owned horses long before I have!) How could one justify this 'training' in any way? Observe videos of horses in the wild/horses in pastures, etc. galloping and acting freely in their herds...Then look at photos of them in pens with their heads tied up, (no offense, but even mildly, is that_ *really*_ necessary??) The 'owner' in the video had a _consistent smirk_ on her face while speaking, and it was _more_ than obvious she didn't care less. _Our horses bend to our will more than enough,_ _don't you think?_ *How fortunate and with privilege to have such beautiful* _*and forgiving creatures in our keeping.*_


Because they way the guy was doing it was 100% wrong (to long, to tight, wrong bit) and then he worsened the situation by beating the already frightened horse. Hence flipping over and a head injury leading to a senseless death. It was the person that committed the act and used the technique wrong! There is nothing wrong with technique itself, but you cannot control the people who use, and sometimes abuse, it. Personally, I've seen it done several successful and event free times.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

I used this method but haven't done it for a few years, because I mostly ride my own horses, not someone elses, and don't need to. 

The method has its place and use but I reserve it for spoiled horses that, like bsms explained, have really gotten into the habit of fighting the rider. Taking the rider out of the equation can sometimes change the mindset and they realize they are only fighting themselves. Then add a rider that can give correctly and then the horse becomes more willing.

As a side note, I was taught that the term "checking up" or "bitting up"was reserved for using a curb and running the reins through the forks straight back and tied off to the horn. "Tying around" was more for horses in the snaffle and the horse was tied around to one side then the other not straight back.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

While I frequently use the technique and I frequently show it to people that come to me for help with their horses, I only use it here. I would use this technique with many if not most of the problem horses people write about here. I have used this technique on literally hundreds of horses without one single injury let alone death. But, I don't recommend this technique to people here with problem horses? 

I would never recommend this or any other technique that can be easily misused over the phone or over the internet. I cannot recommend any technique that I can not oversee and 'micro-manage' if that technique can be done so wrongly that really bad things can result. This is one of those techniques. 

I have frequently talked about 'laying horses down', but you have not seen me explain how to do it -- nor will you.

I will never forget the man that came by when I was checking a horse back (not around) probably 20 or 25 years ago. [He is still a neighbor and good friend.] He asked what I was doing and I explained that the horse was stiff, braced against any pressure anywhere and was terribly resistant. I also explained that he was watching the 3rd time I had checked him. I explained that the first time I worked him, I used a section of inner-tube and 'lightly' checked his head to each side. I explained that the 2nd time I used two sections of inner-tube and checked his head back, but not very far, using a snaffle. He watched the 3rd time when I did the same thing (with inner-tube sections) and asked the horse to go forward but did not ask him to lope. He nicely walked and jogged around. The next time (when the neighbor was not here), the horse loped and only 'stopped himself' 2 or 3 times and never fought the reins at all. He was a completely different horse than I started with 3 days earlier. When I started riding him, he was a completely different horse. 

About a week later, this same man stopped by to tell me he and his son had a horrible wreck and their big heading horse was dead. I asked what had happened and he said he went home to tell his son how their head horse needed to be checked up like I was doing. He was fighting the box, rearing and lunging out, bracing and really stiff. This was a big stout horse that rode braced in a tie-down that had never been taught to give to a bit or to anything else. He was over-bitted, over-ridden, had been over-used with too little training. He was a typical 'blown up' heading horse that was pretty much out of control. They checked him up in his regular bit (a curb with a chain mouth-piece and chain curb). He hit it, flipped over backwards and hit his head on the hard ground. He fractured his skill, tried to get up and fell back down, had a seizure and died.

This guy did not do anything right. He watched me for 5 minutes, did not listen to anything I told him about the previous 2 sessions and did not use the snaffle and rubber that I pointed out to him. He just took the general concept, mis-used it and had a dead horse in about 5 minutes. It taught me not to ever let anyone learn a little bit about a complicated technique that required knowledge and judgement.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

Squiggs had issues with respecting the bit... such things were obvious. And getting her to soften to it long term was a headache.

And a half.

So I did a similar thing with her and it changed her whole attitude (it wasnt like I FORCED her to submiss) she had learned that fighting a solid thing wasnt worth it and she caught on.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I have done this particular technique many times and at times have used a chambon, overcheck reins, side checks, training forks, surcingles and saddles. I never tie up or back tight and never start out with both sides checked back the first few times. I've found that with a rubber dogbone snaffle and a check rein on 1 side only, you can usually get a horse to soften its response significantly and quickly. I like to do ground work throughout the exercises, right up to ground driving around the arena several times. I start out only using token resistance and then once they've accepted that, then I shorten the side rein or check rein as needs be and work with that for a few minutes. By the end of a couple of weeks worth of short exercises, the horse is totally accepting of the bit and no longer bracey. My bit caveat in this would be to say you need to remain, soft, slow and sensitive during this training. It's very important that no matter how good the horse gets at these exercises, that he never ever be overfaced by too harsh a bit, too tightly tying back, any of the things we all cringed when we read the article.


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## BreezyB (Sep 26, 2013)

Very sad event indeed ..I have a horse in training on the english side , I wasn't there that day but the way things are unfolding over there with the owners seemingly trying to find some way to justify this by the week end they probably won't have any borders left ....just a terrible terrible tragedy .


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

BreezyB said:


> Very sad event indeed ..I have a horse in training on the english side , I wasn't there that day but the way things are unfolding over there with the owners seemingly trying to find some way to justify this by the week end they probably won't have any borders left ....just a terrible terrible tragedy .


So sorry breezy.....yes it is such a horrible event. Its a ghost town over there. Whenever my horses would go by there....i must say they are often uneasy....which is not like them. It saddens me. I dont barn bash....just observing my horses behaviors.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Why would a training wreck affect boarders and any other horses that are not in training there? Are boarded horses well cared for? Do they have a good management and feeding program? 

I would think that the owner's way out would be to replace the trainer. How on earth would this trainer justify beating a horse over the head? That was the problem and not bitting the horse up. Using such harsh methods or equipment that horses have scars on their chins can only be described as abuse or facts are being overly exaggerated.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I have checked a horse up to one side, then tapped them with the whip and asked them to move. That leads to them having to go in a circle. I do not aggressively get on them, and they are still in the breakaway reins. Again, NOT something I would do if I didn't know how to do it right, and never would I have attempted it had I not of had a knowledgeable person there the first time.

Here's my next question: Has anyone ever checked up by hock hobbles?


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

SorrelHorse said:


> Here's my next question: Has anyone ever checked up by hock hobbles?


No, and I've only ever seen the results of that once (that I know of...and it was bad).

There was a horse that my Dad got a long time ago that a WP trainer had tried to force into a frame by using hock hobbles attached to a wire war bonnet like this









Poor Dandy carried scars on his poll and forehead until the day he died and took several months at our barn before he was even _able_ to pick up his head above wither-level. He had to be fed and watered on the ground.

BUT, I also know that was just the work of a despicable excuse for a human being and not the method itself. 

I wonder about the effectiveness of using hock hobbles though. There is just so much movement to that joint and it's so sudden that I'd imagine a horse getting popped _hard_ in the mouth over and over until they figured out how to just evade it by tucking behind the bit.

IMHO, something like a pessoa would be more effective because there is a lot less abrupt movement and a lot less see-sawing action on the bit.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Cherie said:


> Why would a training wreck affect boarders and any other horses that are not in training there? Are boarded horses well cared for? Do they have a good management and feeding program?
> 
> I would think that the owner's way out would be to replace the trainer. How on earth would this trainer justify beating a horse over the head? That was the problem and not bitting the horse up. Using such harsh methods or equipment that horses have scars on their chins can only be described as abuse or facts are being overly exaggerated.


The other trainer is moving to another ranch, taking her clientele with her....


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