# Why are we still torturing horses with the original cinch and rigging?



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Well, are you planning on showing us this rigging system?


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## AQHA13 (Apr 19, 2017)

My pad doesn't slip, my horse is comfortable, and I can mount perfectly fine( unlike your 4 friends). Why should I be interested in this product? Can we see it?


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

I think there is already products out there like what you described. I think they are called crossfire rigging or center fire rigging? They attach to the front and rear of the saddle and the cinch is placed farther back than normal. 

I've not had the problems you've described. I do tighten my saddle up pretty snug at first but after riding a short bit, it isn't overly tight on the horse. If I wanted to, I could tighten it more but my saddle doesn't slip, even getting off and on. Usually my cinch isn't right behind the front legs like you say so I don't have a problem with it bothering the horses movement. 

I will agree that some people have those problems. However, if they are on the heavy side or don't have a saddle that fits the horse, I don't think a different rigging would fix it. 

Good luck anyway with your idea.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gremmy (Feb 17, 2009)

Well, this'll be good market research for you. I see very little demand for an invention like that. I've yet to meet a girth sour horse that did not either have an underlying issue or had been cinched up too harshly in the past. Investigating medical issues and/or care and patience has always greatly improved or resolved the issue for me. If you want to claim that an everyday piece of tack is cruel and barbaric then you'd best back that up with some research - I have never seen any signs of discomfort or restricted breathing/movement under normal conditions with a standard girth/cinch. If the girth is properly done up the saddle does not move around and rub - if that is happening then the saddle does not fit properly.


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## Littlefilly (Jun 2, 2012)

AQHA13 said:


> My pad doesn't slip, my horse is comfortable, and I can mount perfectly fine( unlike your 4 friends). Why should I be interested in this product? Can we see it?


You shouldn't be, if your horse is happy with your current cinch and rigging. I am not into fixing things that are not broken. If your horse is happy, one less horse I will think about. I was out of horses for the most part for over 20 years. I guess I assumed that while I was gone, the few things that were the cause of stress for me..and more importantly my horse. Number one. The cinching. In 4 h we were taught to kick our horses in the stomach. That was more than i could stomach. I think I did that twice. Then I found out on my own you could walk them and then adjust cinch, as well as learning how to swing up by using the horn ( I am always trying things my own way)

But I digress, so back into horses. And what do i find? The same archaic method I used in 6th grade. I ride with a hackamore..that I added cushion and felt to. I wanted my filly before she was ever born. She is one of my best karma payoffs. I am giving lessons to three young girls ..everytime...they have trouble..I have to check cinch. I don't even like doing one cinch, let alone 3. I ride for the enjoyment. That is not enjoyable for me when animals are stressed. I feel everything. I have been rescuing animals with pet assistance for over 20 years, because I am driven to stop the suffering of as many animals as I can, practically, . Even if it is one at a time. I am so driven , I have continued to answer the call at the risk of my marriage (how that can risk my marriage for 29 years,I do not understand, but whatever) . So one day I had an idea..lol I have those all the time. And I started playing with it in my head. I came up with this system..I made a mock prototype..and I have not used the old cinch since. And I never will. That was before I learned what I have learned in my researching for the past month. I never knew horses were left and right handed. or that we place the cinch on the heart girth, restricting the breathing.or that every step my horse took, with a saddle on. the saddle was shifting, because the back of the saddle was not secured down. 

I know that when I trailer my boat..or horse..I want that trailer to feel like it is one with my truck. So that I can almost forget it is there. I know that the cinch the way it is now is designed to slip. the cinch and the slip are in the same direction. So it either had to be soooo tight she can't breath..or so loose I couldn't get on without assistance. I felt trapped up there. I know that teddy the morgan on the ranch starts freaking out as soon as he sees the saddle pad. I can feel his discomfort...and when he is cinched I can see it. I found out why hexy probably swishes her tail and starts to stomp her back foot halfway through the trail ride, or that she isnt bar spoiled..she wants to get home and get that cinch off......

I only just received patent pending, today. So I couldn't even discuss it,to find out if there was any interest in it..but the more I research, the more desperate I become to stop the suffering that is going on. So I had to act as soon as I could. I am starting out by just getting the word out there. I have twelve months now to perfect the product. I will take more videos over the weekend of the rigging and the cinch. I will also take video of my horse..while she checks to make sure it is our cinch..which by the way..we call Simple Cinch, is the one I am putting on her..when she finds that it is..she drops her head and and takes a little cat nap..while I ..click click..pull pull ..done

This is my filly. She is my pride and joy. I rescued ( in my opinion) her from my sister..who has her Dam and two younger sisters.


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## Littlefilly (Jun 2, 2012)

tinyliny said:


> Well, are you planning on showing us this rigging system?


<smile> yes..yes I am. I may not be going about the sales of my product in the most productive manner. because to tell true...the business part of this is not my largest concern. I do have people for that ..but I am passionate about stirring up interest because the sooner I do, the sooner other horses may find relief.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

I always ask a different question when I see products like this - "Why do people who have re-invented the wheel feel the need to make the argument that the old wheel was cruel?"

Also, no wonder your saddle slips on mounting if that is how you mount. You should bounce up, not pull yourself up using the saddle. You are doing more damage to your horse using this rigging system - instead of causing the saddle to slip when you clamber up so lazily, you are causing her whole spine to twist as you haul yourself up using her as a ladder.


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## Littlefilly (Jun 2, 2012)

On a side note. I can't tell you how much of a difference it is having the saddle locked down..and causing no discomfort for my horse. It does not budge. My horse is so happy with it..and that makes me so happy.


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## Littlefilly (Jun 2, 2012)

Chiilaa said:


> I always ask a different question when I see products like this - "Why do people who have re-invented the wheel feel the need to make the argument that the old wheel was cruel?"
> 
> Also, no wonder your saddle slips on mounting if that is how you mount. You should bounce up, not pull yourself up using the saddle. You are doing more damage to your horse using this rigging system - instead of causing the saddle to slip when you clamber up so lazily, you are causing her whole spine to twist as you haul yourself up using her as a ladder.


Are you saying I am wrong about the slide being the same direction of the cinch? Because I am a certified machinist, and I can tell you if you wanted some slide..that is the direction you would put the cinch.

And what about the fact that the back rises..and shifts..even if you cant feel it, horses are..according to my research. And what about the fact that the back cinch does nothing ..and is way too far back. I am not lazy..I ride motocross, I wakeboard...I am not a lazy or un-athletic. But I am no spring chicken..and I have had knee surgery, I would rather not blow it out again. Or what about the fact that there are cinchy horses being creating daily? I am not doing anything but trying to make what I enjoy, the most enjoyable as possible for my horse first..than myself. And I have worked with a brain damaged patient..guess how that head injury happened? Saddle slipped. So every saddle that slips is because someone is lazy? And how about the fact that the old cinch placement sucks. Would you want a strap over your heart and binding under your arms..if they were the two legs you led with . 

<smile> just curious..so you would rather have a not round wheel?


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

First of all, I am a woman. I wear a strap across my heart and binding under my arms, tight, every day of my life. It doesn't restrict my movement at all, and a girth is just the same if correctly adjusted.

If you can't get on the horse without hauling on her back, use a mounting block. I understand that as people get older they lose "bounce" but that is no excuse to continue to pull yourself up when there are perfectly good alternatives. 

I don't even know what you mean about slide going the same way as the cinch, so I am not going to get into that.


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## BBBCrone (Jan 28, 2012)

Littlefilly said:


> In 4 h we were taught to kick our horses in the stomach.


Errrrrrr what? I'm not sure what 4-H club you were with but WOW. That's all I can say. I was in 4-H from the time I was 8 until 18. That was back in 1970 for my first year of 4-H. Never once was I ever told to kick my horse in the gut!

That being said ... I say go for it. If you think you have a product folks would like, you have nothing to loose  Well except whatever cash you put into your idea if it doesn't pan out.


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## Annnie31 (May 26, 2011)

Show us some pictures of the rigging so we can actually give you our thoughts. I dont think there is anything on the market that couldnt be considered unkind in the wrong hands with inexperienced riders. The fact is when done properly there is nothing cruel about the currently used riggings for saddles.
As said earlier if you cant mount with enough bounce to make it a smooth motion a mounting block should be used. If your girth is pinching your horse you should have someone show you how to do it up properly and keep your horses skin smooth underneath. That being said there is always room for improvement so I look forward to seeing your invention.


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## OwnedByAlli (Nov 8, 2011)

There are saddles (english ones i mean) that have girth straps which prevent the back of the saddle rising, but a correctly fitting saddle shouldnt rise at the back anyway...

Anyway, I would be interested to see the product too, and how it riggs up to the saddle. Is it possible to adapt for english use, or is it just western? Does it require alterations to existing saddles to use, or can it be used on any saddle?
Sorry, I always want to know everything about new products haha just me being me


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Yes a horse's back moves as the horse moves, especially at the canter & walk where alternate sides of the back lift in an up & down, forward & back motion. 

If you have a saddle tied down to the back so it doesn't move at all wouldn't the back muscles then be trying to press against a non-moving object? 

Think of a back pack for example-we strap them snuggly to our backs but as we move the pack also moves with us. If the pack was made of a solid piece of wood our back would be pushing against the wood with every step. I can't imagine that would be comfortable for very long.

A saddle is also a solid object placed on a moving part (horse) with another moving part (rider) on it. Do we want it so tight to the horse that it doesn't move at all? It seems to me that the only way for the horse to be totally comfortable with a strapped down immobile saddle would be with a saddle that flexed at about 4 points & I don't know how a saddle like that would be safe or secure. It would be more like a treeless saddle or bareback pad, neither of which is very secure, though maybe very confortable for the horse.

Another point to consider with the X cinching rig is that the horse's barrel size changes with different gaits & activities. That would have to be taken into consideration too or it could be more restricting than the sternum cinch now used. Watch a horse breathe, the flanks mainly move. Would the X rig interfere with that?

I too would be interested to see the new design. I'm not saying it would be bad, it could be great.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

OK, there are two cinches that criss-cross under the horse's belly. Am I right on this? There is a reason a cinch is in the heart area, that is where the least amount of movement takes place, the least amount of expansion of the rib cage. As the cinch moves farther back, especially on a horse with a tubby belly it will try to crawl forward to the path of least resistance, taking the saddle with it. As the horse moves the X straps will have considerably more movement which could result in chafing. The tree is designed for the heart area. I hope your sytem works well for you but it is not something I would even consider.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Are we talking about something like this

SupraCinch Instructions


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

I agree with what has already been said....If the saddle fits properly there is no need to hog it to 'em.
I was told as a kid that if you mount properly, you could do it with a loose cinch. Again.. bounce up lightly using the horses neck and forks of the saddle, not hauling yourself by pulling on the horn and cantle.

If your saddle is rolling all over the top of your horse you need to rethink how well it fits and rolling may also be caused by using to thick of pads and blankets.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Littlefilly said:


> ...Number one. The cinching. In 4 h we were taught to kick our horses in the stomach. That was more than i could stomach. I think I did that twice. Then I found out on my own you could walk them and then adjust cinch, as well as learning how to swing up by using the horn ( I am always trying things my own way)...
> 
> ...That was before I learned what I have learned in my researching for the past month. I never knew horses were left and right handed. or that we place the cinch on the heart girth, restricting the breathing.or that every step my horse took, with a saddle on. the saddle was shifting, because the back of the saddle was not secured down...
> 
> ...So it either had to be soooo tight she can't breath..or so loose I couldn't get on without assistance...she wants to get home and get that cinch off...


Golly. I'm not super smart about riding, but I've never read, seen or heard of kicking a horse in the belly to cinch them up. Maybe I just live in a place of equine knowledge, but everyone I've ever met cinches the horse some, walks a little, and tightens. Most will check the cinch after 5 minutes of riding.

Mounting techniques vary, but make a difference. I recommend this older thread:

http://www.horseforum.com/western-riding/mounting-using-horn-47065/

A cinch does not restrict breathing. Not unless you tighten it with the hammer of Thor or have muscles that Schwarzenegger only dreamed about in his prime. The ribs move out to the sides, not down to the ground. A properly tightened cinch has slack in the sides, allowing the horse to breath, just as I can breath while carrying a backpack.

You might want to buy a book on saddle fitting, or read some of the many threads here. A proper fitting saddle will not slide all over. It is like two spoons placed against each other - if the fit is right, the spoons 'want' to stay like that.

I recommend reading for a while at this site:

Factors That Affect Tree Fit

My own technique is to place the saddle where I think it should go, attach the cinch just enough to stop it from dragging, and then walk the horse thru a figure 8. The saddle, gravity and the horse's movement put the saddle where it 'wants' to go, and only then do I start tightening the cinch. With my own horse & saddle, I don't really need to do that any more - but I do.

The back of the saddle does not need to be secured down. If you need to tie it down, you need a different saddle.

FWIW, my horses have never shown any sign of wanting to get the cinch off. I don't ride them very hard, but they all appreciate having the bit removed - maybe because they associate that with "It's Miller time!" (In their case, "It's pellet time!")

It isn't just that you seem to be solving a problem that doesn't exist. You seem to be thinking the cinch secures the saddle to the horse. It shouldn't. In part it does, of course, but a saddle that fits will stay there at a walk or trot without a cinch. 

Last year, when I went out to check on my daughter riding our Appy, something looked odd. It took me a moment to figure out what it was. Then I went and stopped her, and pointed out the cinch had come undone and was hanging a couple of inches below the horse. She had been trotting circles happily and hadn't noticed.

When the saddle fits the horse (and I'm sure it helped that our Appy has good withers), it is the saddle's fit that keeps it there. If mounting is a problem, then a mounting block can help a lot. But I think you need to learn more about horses & saddles before you try to solve the 'problem' of cinches...


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## AnalisaParalyzer (Apr 25, 2012)

Its been medically proven that a correct fitting saddle and cinch won't cause any kind of pain or discomfort. And I agree that if I tried to use any kind of cross-strap to the back of my saddle Annie would have a hard time breathing. And it definately wouldn't work for a horse with a blown out ribcage. 
I'd like to see how it works though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WalnutPixie (Oct 15, 2010)

> When the saddle fits the horse (and I'm sure it helped that our Appy has good withers), it is the saddle's fit that keeps it there. If mounting is a problem, then a mounting block can help a lot. But I think you need to learn more about horses & saddles before you try to solve the 'problem' of cinches...


Yes bsm! I was reading through this whole thread wondering if anyone would mention this.

I have done a fair bit of studying on the topic of saddle fitting and the most important thing I've learned from it is that there are so many problems caused by saddle fit that are, for some reason, often blamed on other things. 

I would strongly reccomend that before finishing the design of your new cinch that you research extensively in saddle fitting and horse anatomy. A saddle needs to be able to move around on the horse somewhat. I'd like to know what happens when you ride your horse around sharp corners with your new cinching system. Could you include that in your movies when you share your design? Also keep in mind that when you mount by hauling yourself up by the stirrups you are actually pulling against the horses shoulder, spine, and possibly the withers if the saddle doesn't fit properly. It can actually be very damaging for the horse and the saddle. 

That being said, I am a firm believer in questioning everything and trying to improve upon things. Nothing is ever perfect and all horse tack was designed by other people who have the potential to make mistakes or fail to perceive a problem. Your horse might have this issue with the girth because of her conformation, a very forward girth line perhaps, and if you can make something that fits her better and might help other horses who are shaped the same way, then more power to you. I like to have so many ideas and products out there to choose from because that makes it easier for me to find things that are the most comfortable for my horse. Still, I don't think there is anything inherently bad about the placement of cinches. Just like with saddles, you just have to be aware of how they work and what your horse is saying to use them properly. You've obviously heard from your horses that something is bothering them and that's a good start.


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## Littlefilly (Jun 2, 2012)

usandpets said:


> I think there is already products out there like what you described. I think they are called crossfire rigging or center fire rigging? They attach to the front and rear of the saddle and the cinch is placed farther back than normal.
> 
> I've not had the problems you've described. I do tighten my saddle up pretty snug at first but after riding a short bit, it isn't overly tight on the horse. If I wanted to, I could tighten it more but my saddle doesn't slip, even getting off and on. Usually my cinch isn't right behind the front legs like you say so I don't have a problem with it bothering the horses movement.
> 
> ...


I appreciate your response. I am familiar with the rigging system you are referring too. They start off with the right premise, but they fall short. They go from 2 to 1 back to 2. It is equal pressure, but not even pressure. They also have an 4 beat saddle. I will still continue to use mine cinch and my rigging until something better comes along. I like the fact that the girls can safely saddle up their horses, and all I have to do is check. I am not interested in bringing anything to any market that is not going to improve the lives of either animals, the elderly or children. Pretty much those who are helpless against the circumstances they may find themselves in that is painful or n uncomfortable.unnecessarily uncomfortable. I am not into creating solutions for problems that do not exist. However I am obsessed with finding solutions to problems that I have with things...that are shared by a wide range of people. My research tells me horses are suffering. It is my goal to make a difference in their lives. If we do happen to find a market..and make any kind of profit, that just means I can start helping them at a higher rate than one at a time.


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## Littlefilly (Jun 2, 2012)

IMUS 4-Beat Western Saddle

This video supports everything I was saying..best to hold it down 4 equally even ways. I do not want tosell one of theses to someone who is not interested..I have people interested. They will try them on their horses if they like them, then more people will try them. Maybe I will never change some ones mind. I wont have to, if my cinch works as good as I think it does. Again thank you for all the responses. Good and bad. It is all useful to me.
IMUS 4-Beat Western Saddle


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## Littlefilly (Jun 2, 2012)

Julie,
I hope you can help me with my horse. He is a 15 y/o gelding, I ride him hunt seat. He gets very irritated when I girth him up. Even before the girth has touched his belly (when I am attaching it to the saddle), he pins his ears and starts bobbing his head. When I actually tighten the girth, his antics increase; he even opens his mouth and swings his head around to bite me (he never does actually bite). He’ll also try to kick at the girth (again, he never actually kicks). He will also become angry when I brush the girth area or even put my hand there. When he’s at horse shows or in the arena I can tighten his girth and he doesn’t seem to notice, it is only in his stall that he becomes crabby. Also, after I ride him and when I take the saddle off, he’s perfectly fine. We’ve had him for about five years and his cinchiness only seemed to start about a year ago, but it was mild then and now he has become increasingly worse when I try to girth him up. I know I should have done something as soon as I noticed the problem but this was our first horse and since I’ve seen other horses do the same thing, I didn’t think anything of it; now that it’s become worse I know I need to do something about it. I’ve read an article about how to stop this behavior, but it didn’t seem to explain the process completely and I don’t want to do anything unless I am positive about how to do it, for fear of making the problem worse. I don’t like to see my horse is such discomfort and I hope I can solve this problem soon. Alison

Answer: Alison,
Thanks for the great question and as you said, this is an issue with which many horse owners are dealing. I am so glad that you view this is an issue of discomfort for your horse and not just write it off to bad behavior. Cinchiness is definitely a problem and can be a safety factor as many of these horses will resort to biting, kicking or pulling back in reaction. However, as far as I am concerned, cinchiness is a problem created by humans and horses are just expressing their emotional discomfort. Generally the term “cinch” is used for a Western saddle and the term “girth” is used for English; for the purpose of this article it does not matter whether you are saddling English or Western and you can consider the term girth and cinch to be interchangeable. Having started hundreds of colts in my career, I know that a certain number of them will have a strong negative reaction to the girth the very first time it is tightened. Whether it is pain or panic that causes the reaction, it is most definitely a real emotion on the part of the horse. On the first saddling, if the horse is girthed up abruptly and tightly, the pain or panic the horse feels is very traumatic and is permanently logged in the horse’s brain as a “fear memory.” Research has shown that once a fear memory has been logged in a horse’s brain, it will always be there. You cannot erase the fear memory; the only option is to over-ride the reaction caused by the fear memory with training or replacement behavior.


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## Littlefilly (Jun 2, 2012)

WalnutPixie said:


> Yes bsm! I was reading through this whole thread wondering if anyone would mention this.
> 
> I have done a fair bit of studying on the topic of saddle fitting and the most important thing I've learned from it is that there are so many problems caused by saddle fit that are, for some reason, often blamed on other things.
> 
> ...


I have done extensive research on all that you mention and more. Everything i say, I can back up with my research.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

"Cinchiness" or "girthiness" is also a problem caused by ill saddle fit, not necessarily pain from the girth.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rascalboy (Jun 30, 2007)

I agree with Sunny. Most girth-shy horses have issues with saddlefit. Even if the saddle fits properly, pain can be caused by the rider.
Anyway, I'm also one of those people who doesn't use a tight girth. Mine is just tight enough that I can lean either way and it won't go anywhere. It means that I can't mount from the ground, but so what? I'm not flexible enough to do that anyway. Fences and trees do well enough for me. Besides, most people twist the horse's spine when they mount from that ground. Unless you can leap up there, you're putting a lot of weight onto just one side of the body. Even when I use a mounting block, I don't use the stirrup to get on. I just swing over.
The only time I ever bother to tighten the girth slightly is for cross country and at horse shows. (I dislike flying off when the horse refuses cause he saw an umbrella  ).
All in all, you really do need photos and diagrams/videos. Otherwise people are just going to continue whining at you. Another point: the area where most girths sit doesn't really expand. However, the farther back you go, the most expansion you get. So if your girth hits where the X-girth does (someone posted the photo on this thread), it will restrict breathing because it won't allow expansion. It might be more comfortable while not working, but that's about it.
Also, if a saddle is positioned properly, the girth hits a couple of inches behind the shoulder, meaning that there is no less of movement or breathing. A lot of people put their saddles way up on the shoulders and cram the girth into the horse's armpits, which does restrict movement.
And some western saddles have the cinch placed more towards the center of gravity, rather than just behind the bars. This distributes pressure more evenly (less saddle lift-up), and also puts the girth farther behind the legs (freeing up movement). So, a lot of saddles are just fine. 
Back girths just try and hide a problem. They don't really fix it.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Littlefilly said:


> I have done extensive research on all that you mention and more. Everything i say, I can back up with my research.


Then please share your research. 

_"My research tells me horses are suffering."_

Really? Where is this research that shows horses suffering from cinches? I've met horses that didn't like it if you yanked full strength to tighten a cinch in one step, but that is a problem with rider technique. I've met horses who weren't fond of having bits put in their mouths because of riders who smacked it against their teeth, but that isn't a fault of the bit.

_"In the four years I have had my filly, I have never been able to use the stirrups to mount....unless I torture my baby by making the cinch uncomfortably tight. For the past four trail rides..I am the only one that can get on and off her horse..with NO assistance."_

If your horse is under 16 hands, I'm pretty sure I could mount her without snugging down the cinch to the point of pain. And if you're the only one who can get on or off her horse while trail riding, you need to get out with better riders. I'm a short, chubby, 54 year old guy with a back injury that has never healed right and who rides a 15.3 Arabian mare with sensitive withers - and I've dismounted and mounted on the trail without any aids other than the stirrups.

I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who can mount his horse from the ground...in fact, I know my 5'2" wife and 5' (on a tall day) daughter-in-law can as well.

_"I will never torture on more horse I ride with that barbaric cinching method."_

It isn't barbaric.

_"I am giving lessons to three young girls ..everytime...they have trouble..I have to check cinch. I don't even like doing one cinch, let alone 3. I ride for the enjoyment. That is not enjoyable for me when animals are stressed."_

Something tells me you don't know what you are doing, then. It really isn't that hard to cinch up a horse properly. If a girl can't figure it out after being shown a time or two, and your horses are stressed out by it - something is wrong, and it isn't the cinch.

_"That was before I learned what I have learned in my researching for the past month. I never knew horses were left and right handed. Or that we place the cinch on the heart girth, restricting the breathing.or that every step my horse took, with a saddle on. The saddle was shifting, because the back of the saddle was not secured down."_

It doesn't take a lot of research to find out horses have two sides to their brains, and that it has a strong impact on them. But putting the cinch where it is doesn't restrict the horse from breathing, and you don't need the rear of the saddle "secured down". A lot of us do that with our rumps...

_"So it either had to be soooo tight she can't breath..or so loose I couldn't get on without assistance."_

That is contrary to the horses I've met. While I'm a fan of good withers, lots of folks have mounted a lot of round-withered horses without encountering a problem with their gear.

_"And what about the fact that the back rises..and shifts..even if you can't feel it, horses are..according to my research. And what about the fact that the back cinch does nothing ..and is way too far back."_

Yes, the back end moves some. Particularly at a canter, in my experience! And that is good, not bad. But none of my saddles slide around on the horse. And the back cinch is NOT to hold down the rear of the saddle for normal riding. Anyone who believes that needs to learn a LOT more about riding before telling others they are barbarians. The rear cinch is there primarily for roping.

So please feel free to share your research. What I've read so far indicates a serious lack of understanding about basic saddle & horse use.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Again, I agree with the above.

I imagine the saddle needs to have some movement and be able to move with the horse. If the saddle has strapped tightly to the point where it was unable to move at all, it would be very difficult for a horse to round up in his top line.

I use a back cinch daily, it is not too tight as though he can't use his back but yet tight enough to ensure that while roping the front end doesn't dig behind his shoulder blades from excessive leverage pressure from the horn. Hence using a Wade tree and short post horn to help reduce the leverage. Also a center fire rig on the proper tree does the same, cowboys used it forever. Barbaric? Hardly. Physical science. A good saddle maker knows how a good saddle works and where it needs to pull from to make a good fit. It is up to us horse owners to pick a saddle and rigging that fits properly or ask the assistance of someone who does.

Frankly ma'am, if you require a special made cinch for your horses you really need to re-evaluate proper fit...and so do your students.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

Your idea sounds like what they use on pack horses. A cross cinch, cinched at four points to hold the pack saddle in place. Cinch is back from front legs.
Great for packing heavy "dead" weight, not for a saddle being ridden by someone who knows how to "move" with the horse and not have dead legs/dead butt. 
I am 5'4" and have no issue mounting a 16 hand horse. Saddle does not slip, nor do I pull the saddle over. And my cinch is not tight, I ride with a snug cinch, not trying to cut the horse in half.
You should be able to ride and balance yourself, not use the saddle to balance and hold you on top of the horse


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## Littlefilly (Jun 2, 2012)

The automobile manufacturers didn't think seat belts were a good idea. The store owners didn't believe shopping carts were a good idea either. Lots of good ideas get this sort of reaction. I expected it. Now that I have the patent pending, I will go to some local vets, and ask their opinion. As well as some local ranch owners. After i get their feedback, I will bring it here..the good the bad and the ugly.

I do appreciate the lesson though. I don't really appreciate being called lazy, but hey, since I am not lazy, I wont take it personally..


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## BubblesBlue (Jun 29, 2010)

Littlefilly said:


> In 4 h we were taught to kick our horses in the stomach. That was more than i could stomach.


Who the heck teaches someone to kick a horse in the stomach?! o.o


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

I think if we could *see* the product and how it works, that'd be one thing. 

But coming here and accusing everyone of "torturing" their horses is ridiculous. My horses don't have any issues with the tack I use, or my mounting ability.

I think maybe you need to be taught how to properly saddle up a horse if you are having all of these issues because 90% of horse people don't have them. Unless they don't know what they are doing (which would be the other 10%). I was never taught to "kick" my horses in the stomach when saddling. Going back to the basics might do you a world of good and solve all your problems.

And hey...We don't appreciate being call "horse torturers" but since we are not, we won't take it personally either...


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

I know of some that do that, kick or knee the horse to get the air out. It may not be right but sometimes the horse lets the air our when you walk them around. By the time you stop them to retighten the cinch, they puff themself back up. So what do you do then? Walk or work them some more only for them to do it again?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

I have heard of that too..kicking one in the gut that blows up when you cinch. But if they didn't have it hogged to em from the start and the saddle fit, they probably would not of started that habit in the beginning.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Monty77 (Aug 8, 2011)

I think everyone would agree that seeing this new rigging system would help us understand what it is you're getting at. Also, I think it would be benifitial to see the statistics surrounding the research you performed. 
I have to agree with everyone else. If your horse is being 'cinchy' when you tighten the cinch or tries to bite you when you get on then there is something else going on regarding saddle fit or a back issue.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

If you are having such serious issues with your saddle sliding around while your trying to mount then A) your saddle doesn't fit or B) you don't know how to properly mount a horse. I can swing up on a horse under 16 hands completely without a cinch if the saddle fits them well.

Truthfully, I would really like to see pictures of this miracle cinch you are talking about and also the research that you took a whole whopping _month_ to compile. 

How many horses and riders were in your focus group? 

How long did your test last? 

What was the training level of the horses in the focus group? 

What was the level of experience of the riders in your focus group?


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

I too am interested to see what on earth this new girth is about. It could well be a great invention & valid alternative. But you shouldn't have expected any different responses to what you got, considering the title of the thread & your assertions about cruelty, regardless of your personal experiences.

I agree with you that over tightening a girth isn't a good move. But to 'lock down' a saddle in place disallowing movement is not good either IMO. It also sounds like to me that it's your personal experiences, bad teaching, ill fitting saddle perhaps, not the state of horses & saddles everywhere that led to your opinions. IME, after much research due to saddle fitting issues with my horses, I want my saddle to move, rather than having constant pressure on certain areas. With the design of my saddle including short forks & the girth done firm but not tight, yes, to pull yourself into the saddle would cause it to roll out of place, unless perhaps it was done up tighter than I've ever done. So I either bounce up with little weight in the stirrups, or use a rise in the ground, rock, log, mounting block, etc. Re saddles slipping forward or back, I use a breastplate & crupper(you could use breeching instead) on hilly rides, rather than tightening the girth more. Yes, it seems many who use a rear cynch on a western do it pointlessly - it is meant to be firm enough to hold the back of the saddle down when roping a beast, I believe. But if a saddle lifts substantially in the rear in the normal course of events, I think saddle fit/balance is the likely issue.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

If I had a horse swell up to fight the cinch, I'd probably just overtighten it and figure it would be right when he exhaled. Or hold the pressure until he turned blue...

But the cinch goes in an area where the horse's ribcage shouldn't be able to expand much anyways. I'm trying to image a horse swelling up like a blowfish, but I've never seen it. What I see mostly is that the saddle or cinch isn't in the right spot, and some motion shifts it to an area of smaller circumference. At least with my horses, breathing in takes maybe an extra inch.

I'm not above putting my elbow into my horse's side, but it would take a lot to get me to kick her in the stomach. Hasn't happened yet.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Any horse I trained is never cinchy or a puffer fish. Why? Because I always pick out the hooves while cinching, tighten it a bit, pick out one hoof, tighten alittle more, do another hoof, etc. Works for both English & Western. Keep your gimmicks, don't need 'em, thanks.


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## Littlefilly (Jun 2, 2012)

It has been brought to my attention that I chose inappropriate wording when choosing the title of this thread. I in no way meant to ( although I realize now I did) suggest that anyone else was torturing their horse. I was only responding to what my experience has been since my return into the equine world. The two horses that Trish leases from a neighbor, have terrible cinch issues. My filly didn't, until Trish sent her to a reputable trainer for two months. She returned, extremely cinchy. Please accept my apologizes for any offense anyone may have taken, from my lack of good judgement when choosing my words.

I don't suppose I can edit this title, due to ignorance? All be it unintentional.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

BubblesBlue said:


> Who the heck teaches someone to kick a horse in the stomach?! o.o


 
I was taught that! I kid you not. When I went to pony camp as a kid, I was taught that. But then, the wrangler would literally hit the worst offending horses with a 2 x 4 over the nose to get their attention. NOt enough to break bones, I guess, but it sure made an impression on me and that horse.


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## Littlefilly (Jun 2, 2012)

tinyliny said:


> I was taught that! I kid you not. When I went to pony camp as a kid, I was taught that. But then, the wrangler would literally hit the worst offending horses with a 2 x 4 over the nose to get their attention. NOt enough to break bones, I guess, but it sure made an impression on me and that horse.



God, that is awful. I feel bad for what we went along with as kids, in dealing with our horses. I have a much better appreciation for my filly. The book Black Beauty opened my eyes.


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## Annnie31 (May 26, 2011)

Tiny when I was a kid I too was taught to knee the ponies belly to get him to suck up so the cinch would tighten more. That was 40 years ago and it certainly hasnt been practiced for a very long, long, time thank goodness. Of course it never did me any good because as a child I was a scrawny little thing and I dont think the pony even felt it LOL.
I agree.. a very long time ago, before many of these posters came into this world, a knee in the belly was said to help. However I dont know about you but it didnt take me long to figure out if I walked the pony a few steps I could re tighten and all would be well. 
I also remember when I was very young (before the age of girths with holes) and using the old cross over and through to cinch up, slinging the leather over my shoulder when bent down and then standing up to use all 60 or so pounds of me at the time to tighten the girth. Nice we now have Round Ring with the Buckle Tongue Girths!!! Makes life so much easier.
That was such a long time ago it is scary LOL. Times have certainly evolved and those days are so long gone.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

Folks, I am closing this thread. All we have is a new member telling us about a new cinch system that may or may not even exist and we have 5 pages of nothing constructive.

Littlefilly, if you have invented such a system, then either show it or stop posting about how wonderful it is. At this point it sounds more like trolling then actual participation.


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