# Not really horse law, but maybe someone has some idea? (dog shot)



## Carleen

I am pretty sure, and others may know for certain, that if a loose dog is causing problems on your own property than you are at liberty to shoot it. Especially if said dog has caused previous problems.


----------



## ElizabethM

It is my understaidng that it is perfectly legal to shoot a dog harrasing your livestock, but but it is not legal to defend *yourself* or another person against the dog by shooting it. My husband has been charged with animal cruelty (standard procedure when a dog is shot in my area) though we expect the DA to drop those charges as we do have a previous police report stating the dog killed our animals and tried to attack people on our property.


----------



## bsms

IIRC, they can sue for both. If the dog was on your property, and you were concerned about the lives of your animals, then I doubt they will get very far.

Maryland says, "§ 11-505. When dog killing permitted Any person may kill any dog which he sees in the act of pursuing, attacking, wounding or killing any poultry or livestock, or attacking human beings whether or not such dog bears the proper license tag required by these provisions. There shall be no liability on such persons in damages or otherwise for such killing."

Maryland Consolidated Dog Laws

Colorado law has this:

"Any dog found running, worrying, or injuring sheep, cattle, or other livestock may be killed, and the owner or harborer of such dog shall be liable for all damages done by it."

Colorado Consolidated Dog Laws


----------



## Cowgirl07

In Virginia I might be wrong but you can not kill a dog over livestock it's illegal they consider it animal cruelty in Virginia I don't know about other states The best way to prevent this from happening is to tell the neighbors to keep the dogs on their property and not let them get into your property I find this story a sad one but a point maker Good Luck hope all goes well


----------



## Joe4d

You are wrong about Virginia, VA's law is pretty much the same as Maryland's.
§ 3.2-6552. Dogs killing, injuring or chasing livestock or poultry

It shall be the duty of any animal control officer or other officer who may find a dog in the act of killing or injuring livestock or poultry to kill such dog forthwith whether such dog bears a tag or not. Any person finding a dog committing any of the depredations mentioned in this section shall have the right to kill such dog on sight as shall any owner of livestock or his agent finding a dog chasing livestock on land utilized by the livestock when the circumstances show that such chasing is harmful to the livestock. Any court shall have the power to order the animal control officer or other officer to kill any dog known to be a confirmed livestock or poultry killer, and any dog killing poultry for the third time shall be considered a confirmed poultry killer. The court, through its contempt powers, may compel the owner, custodian, or harborer of the dog to produce the dog.

Any animal control officer who has reason to believe that any dog is killing livestock or poultry shall be empowered to seize such dog solely for the purpose of examining such dog in order to determine whether it committed any of the depredations mentioned herein. Any animal control officer or other person who has reason to believe that any dog is killing livestock, or committing any of the depredations mentioned in this section, shall apply to a magistrate serving the locality wherein the dog may be, who shall issue a warrant requiring the owner or custodian, if known, to appear before a general district court at a time and place named therein, at which time evidence shall be heard. If it shall appear that the dog is a livestock killer, or has committed any of the depredations mentioned in this section, the district court shall order that the dog be: (i) killed immediately by the animal control officer or other officer designated by the court; or (ii) removed to another state that does not border on the Commonwealth and prohibited from returning to the Commonwealth. Any dog ordered removed from the Commonwealth that is later found in the Commonwealth shall be ordered by a court to be killed immediately.

The recent case in Va where the man was convicted of animal cruelty for shooting the dog killing chickens. The guy used birdshot, and it was proven he was familiar with guns and ammo and knew that birdshot would not kill a dog but would only cause pain and suffering, SO perfectly legal to shoot to kill, not legal to shoot just to injure and cause pain.


----------



## bsms

"It shall be the duty of any animal control officer or other officer who may find a dog in the act of killing or injuring livestock or poultry to kill such dog forthwith whether such dog bears a tag or not. *Any person finding a dog committing any of the depredations mentioned in this section shall have the right to kill such dog on sight* as shall any owner of livestock or his agent finding a dog chasing livestock on land utilized by the livestock when the circumstances show that such chasing is harmful to the livestock."

LIS > Code of Virginia > 3.2-6552


----------



## bsms

Joe4d said:


> ...
> § 3.2-6552. Dogs killing, injuring or chasing livestock or poultry...


Dang! You beat me to it!


----------



## Joe4d

I feel bad for you in CO, I just checked ur laws on the matter, i dont really see anything spelling out a right to self, or livestock defense, All it says is well after the dog kills your kids and chews your leg off you can suit. Looks like some changes need to be made.


----------



## bubba13

If the owner was actively trying to recover the dog at the time it was shot, you may run into a problem...


----------



## ShutUpJoe

How come cops have the right to fire on a dog if they charge at them? But we can't protect ourselves?


----------



## bsms

If a dog is attacking you and you shoot it, you will probably be fine. Assuming it was big enough to do damage...shoot a Charging Chihuahua, and you may have a problem!


----------



## smrobs

In my area, it's much the same as what other people have quoted. If the dog is on your property and you either feel threatened or if said dog is harassing your livestock (and that includes barking at them from outside the fence so long as dog is still on your property), then you are completely within your rights to shoot said dog. 

Did you report the other instances of the dog getting out and killing your fowl and injuring your goat?

:rofl: BSMS, I don't know. Those ankle biters can be vicious.


----------



## Cat

It depends on the laws of your state/county.

However - even with that said it doesn't mean that a lawyer will take on a lawsuit. KY law allows for shooting of a dog if it is harassing livestock or attacking a human. 

A co-worker's dog crossed the neighbors property line (they were out with her) and the guy shot her from his bedroom window. The owners weren't too far from the dog so if the bullet had strayed he was even endangering humans. This neighbor had no livestock or other animals and the dog really had just crossed the tree line. Under KY law there was no legal reason the guy could shoot the dog. The officer even said that but said all they could do is make sure it was all documented in a report. They would have to pursue it via a lawyer.

Went to a lawyer and it went no where. Its just on file now so that if this guy shoots another person's dog then that person will have a stronger case and may be able to take it somewhere.


----------



## Alwaysbehind

Glad you have a report from the previous times the dog caused problems. Properly reporting that was very smart of you.

It is sad this dog was owned by such careless people.



Why do you say in your OP that you are not allowed to shoot a dog that you feel is threatening you? Curious the basis for that statement.


Vet bills plus the cost of their very valuable (cough cough) dog probably will still be with in the limits of small claims court. If they do decided to sue you it will be kind of the luck of the draw. Small claims kind of depends on the judge you get and their willingness to look at actual law vs. what sounds right.

Do you have other neighbors who have had a problem with this dog too? Are they willing to come to court and state this? Have they made police reports when it has happened?


----------



## ElizabethM

Because we were having so many problems with this dog (coming over daily for months at one point) we went to a town meeting a couple years ago regarding problems with dogs. We live in a somewheat rural area and it is a common problem around here. At the meeting they had a few speakers, one being someone from the Sheriff's Office. I had tried calling to report the dog on a couple of occasions and was told there was nothing at all they could do. The guy at the meeting said this was not true and sent an officer out the next day to take a report. 

Anyway, it was during this meeting everyone was informed of the laws, including that it was legal to shoot a dog "worrying" livestock, but that if the dog was to attack your child (or any person) it it not legal to shoot the dog and you will be charged with animal cruelty. So we did see that part coming. The speaker also said that it would be up to the DA regarding wether or not charges would be pressed based on the individual case. He said it would likely be dropped in the case of shooting a dog (especially with a previous history) to defend yourself from it. When the officer came to take the report after this meeting he reconfirmed all of this.

We do have other neighbors who have had problems with this same dog, but we are one of only a couple people in the neighborhood with livestock. Also, it seems as soon as the word "lawsuit" is mentioned suddenly no one wants to talk anymore.


----------



## bsms

ElizabethM said:


> ... if the dog was to attack your child (or any person) it it not legal to shoot the dog and you will be charged with animal cruelty...


I don't think there is a chance in Hades of that being correct. It is legal to shoot humans to protect yourself or others in most states.

"18-1-704. Use of physical force in defense of a person

Except as provided in subsections (2) and (3) of this section, a person is justified in using physical force upon another person in order to defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believes to be the use of imminent use of unlawful physical force by that other person, and he may use a degree of force which he reasonably believes to be necessary for that purpose.

Deadly physical force may be used only if a person reasonably believes a lesser degree of force is inadequate and:

The actor has reasonable ground to believe and does believe, that he or another person is in imminent danger of being killed or of receiving great bodily injury"

Sheriff's Office - Colorado Revised Statutes - Jefferson County, Colorado

I'm sure all shootings, dog & man, are reviewed to make sure they were valid.

If an angry Chihuahua is after you, shooting will get you in trouble. If it is a 200 lb Rottie who is after you, I'd bet the law will leave you alone. In any case, I'd use whatever force I thought needed to protect my family or myself.


----------



## Alwaysbehind

ElizabethM said:


> We do have other neighbors who have had problems with this same dog, but we are one of only a couple people in the neighborhood with livestock. Also, it seems as soon as the word "lawsuit" is mentioned suddenly no one wants to talk anymore.


Did anyone else file a report?

Really, none of them are willing to support you if these idiots file a lawsuit?


I too am not sure I believe the police officer about it not being legal to shoot a dog that is attacking you. Do you have a lawyer you can ask for clarification on this?


----------



## ElizabethM

I am quite sure of it. Each Sherrif's Officer we have spoken with (4 at this point) has confirmed it as well as our local Humane Society and police department. Each did say that in the case of defending yourself against a dog the charges would likely be dropped, but they must charge you with animal cruelty at the time of the shooting so the case can be reviewed.

I am not sure how to go about finding reports made by anyone else.

The dog was a large male boxer of about 80 lbs or more.


----------



## Alwaysbehind

I think there is a difference between them being allowed to file animal cruelty charges against you and it being unlawful to shoot a dog that is attacking you.

Civilly I doubt anyone could collect if you shot their animal that was attacking you (if you were on your own property and did not provoke the attack obviously).

That is the point I am trying to make.


Animal cruelty laws are written very strangely and you could be charged with animal cruelty if you choose to put your dog down by one shot to the head. Which is about as illogical as it gets.


----------



## ElizabethM

Excellent point. Also, I believe it is that it is unlawfull to shoot a dog period, not that it is unlawful to shoot a dog that is attacking you. Which is why the charges are filed and then reviewed at a hearing.

I should clarify that it is NOT the dog owners who have filed animal cruelty charges.


----------



## Golden Horse

bsms said:


> If an angry Chihuahua is after you, shooting will get you in trouble. If it is a 200 lb Rottie who is after you, I'd bet the law will leave you alone. In any case, I'd use whatever force I thought needed to protect my family or myself.


An interesting thought, but where would the cutoff be I wonder, I know common sense says huge difference in threat level between the two example given, but somewhere in the middle would be a whole grey area, what about a Beagle, JRT, Collie?


----------



## bsms

Golden Horse said:


> An interesting thought, but where would the cutoff be I wonder...


That happens when shooting humans as well. The AZ law says you need a reasonable belief that your life is in danger, or severe bodily harm will happen. If it is a 100 lb girl faced with a 300 lb attacker with a knife, it is easy. If it is an older man confronted by a younger man the same size, armed with a small knife, then things get murky. Until one gets to court, you just do not know.

The only time I ever pulled a gun, I was alone, miles from the nearest road, and there were 8 guys moving to surround me. I had a 6 shot .22 that I pulled and got ready to use against the closest guy. They stopped trying to surround me, and I left. That was easy to decide. They didn't say a word, but there was no doubt I was badly outnumbered, and they weren't looking for advice on good trails for hiking!

Against one dog, I'd feel pretty comfortable taking one on unarmed up to about 100 lbs. Someone who hasn't owned dogs their entire life may have a different threshold. Against 2 or more dogs, I wouldn't hesitate to shoot a 50 lb dog. I don't want to wait until my hamstring is torn out to decide I needed more force.

Cruelty laws are intended to prevent the jerk from shooting dogs for fun, or making up an excuse, or chasing a dog down the street to shoot him. If a person shoots a dog in the chest or face while on his own property, and the dog is big enough to do actual harm, I'd bet no one would be charged. A DA filing charges in those circumstances would be in deep doo-doo politically. In Arizona, at least. Same for rural Colorado. Don't know about Denver.


----------



## Dresden

Was the dog actually attacking? If my dog ran off and I was chasing it down and someone shot it, I would be mighty upset. My dogs would run at a person, they're friendly and love people and they wouldn't act threatening...but just running at a person isn't a reason to get shot.... and previous problems aside the neighbor was right there trying to recover the dog. I don't know about the laws and I obviously don't understand the exact situation as it makes little sense to me. 

Animal cruelty is usually just a fine anyway if you are charged with it( first offense in most states I believe?) He may be able to recover some money in a civil suit depending on the exact circumstances. Like whether the dog was being threatening etc but it probably won't go any where as its usually more to sue than one would recover in a small case like this. The history of the dog attacking would probably be in your favor. I wouldn't worry too much about being sued until you actually are. Most people threaten but never actually follow through. You do want someone who'd testify the dog was threatening in the past as I would bet your neighbor will produce people(friends likely) who swear the dog never harmed anyone ever, etc.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Saddlebag

Under provincial regulations, dogs in rural communities are not to be allowed to run at large and can be shot if harassing livestock. That's cut and dried. Our wildlife officers will shoot a dog off property that is chasing deer or other wildlife. Do check the regulations for your area as they apply to your area and if you are rural.


----------



## smrobs

Dresden said:


> Was the dog actually attacking? If my dog ran off and I was chasing it down and someone shot it, I would be mighty upset. My dogs would run at a person, they're friendly and love people and they wouldn't act threatening...but just running at a person isn't a reason to get shot.... and previous problems aside the neighbor was right there trying to recover the dog. I don't know about the laws and I obviously don't understand the exact situation as it makes little sense to me.


But, on that same note, you can't expect the people that the dog is running at to understand it's motives. Maybe some people would think this makes me cruel, but I know there are more people out there with dogs they can't control than there are people with obedient dogs. If a strange dog was running toward me (on _my_ property no less) and the owner was unsuccessfully trying to call the dog back to them, I would have done the exact same as the OP. How am I supposed to know if the dog is friendly or not, whether he will take to licking me to death or rip my throat out? I don't know about anyone else, but I would not be willing to take the chance.

When you get right down to it, it is the dog owner's fault. Almost everywhere has laws about keeping dogs locked up that have proven themselves to be dangerous to humans or other animals. The dog was not secured and did not have adequate training to be called back from running toward a person that didn't know him. As a result, the dog was shot. The only person that can be blamed is the owner. The dog was just doing what dogs do so he can't be at fault, the OP's husband did what he needed to do to protect himself, his family, and his property so he's not at fault.


----------



## Alwaysbehind

smrobs said:


> When you get right down to it, it is the dog owner's fault.


I agree. The owner is who should be charged with animal cruelty.


----------



## wyominggrandma

In Wyoming, if you have livestock and a loose dog crosses your property,( and especially if you have filed reports before) you can shoot it without any problems. If the dog has attacked/killed your livestock, the owner is liable for 3 times the amount of the livestock it killed.
A valuable dog does not run loose, boxers are a dime a dozen. Unless the dog was a Champion and a producing Champion and they could prove it, then the most they would get was the cost at the time they bought the dog.
That being said, if it was loose and in your pasture/yard/property, the owners have no chance of filing a lawsuit and winning.


----------



## Dresden

Alwaysbehind said:


> I agree. The owner is who should be charged with animal cruelty.


I agree. A responsible dog owner wouldn't have had this problem with the dog getting loose repeatedly. Accidents happen but this seems like a pattern of behavior on the dog owners part. 

There are a lot of dogs running around the barn I board at and I would have to say its usually pretty obvious when one is charging versus when one is bounding up to say hi...I'm not in any way saying the OPs husband was wrong. I just can't imagine what I would have felt if the one time my dog got loose someone had shot him. (However my dog has literally only gotten loose once in 5 years...fingers crossed). Again though if the owner really cared about the dog they should've been more careful to make sure he wasn't running loose all the time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Joe4d

bsms said:


> I don't think there is a chance in Hades of that being correct. It is legal to shoot humans to protect yourself or others in most states.
> 
> "18-1-704. Use of physical force in defense of a person
> 
> Except as provided in subsections (2) and (3) of this section, a person is justified in using physical force upon another person in order to defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believes to be the use of imminent use of unlawful physical force by that other person, and he may use a degree of force which he reasonably believes to be necessary for that purpose.
> 
> Deadly physical force may be used only if a person reasonably believes a lesser degree of force is inadequate and:
> 
> The actor has reasonable ground to believe and does believe, that he or another person is in imminent danger of being killed or of receiving great bodily injury"
> 
> Sheriff's Office - Colorado Revised Statutes - Jefferson County, Colorado
> 
> I'm sure all shootings, dog & man, are reviewed to make sure they were valid.
> 
> If an angry Chihuahua is after you, shooting will get you in trouble. If it is a 200 lb Rottie who is after you, I'd bet the law will leave you alone. In any case, I'd use whatever force I thought needed to protect my family or myself.


sorry but are mistaken, yes perfectly legal to shoot a person that is attacking you, but CO law only permits you to seek civil action if the dog is killing you, yes I know it is stupid, but there you have it. Maybe people need to get the self defense laws amended to add "or animal" in there. Its a crock to say well the DA wont prosecute, so instead of changing a stupid law prosecutors are just gonna ignore a law ? That isnt right either. 

keep a pet chicken, then you always have nearby livestock to be protecting,


----------



## bsms

Joe4d said:


> sorry but are mistaken, yes perfectly legal to shoot a person that is attacking you, but CO law only permits you to seek civil action if the dog is killing you, yes I know it is stupid, but there you have it...


I'll waive the BS flag on this. Every person has the right to self defense. If a dog is killing you, you absolutely have the right to kill it first. That is true anywhere in the USA.

Please show me the section of Colorado law that says a man cannot shoot a dog that is killing him or someone else.

"McCombs shot the attacking dog twice, killing it, Colorado Springs police said. He had a permit to carry a concealed handgun, police said, and appeared to be “within the guidelines of the law” when firing his handgun.

Read more: Man on evening stroll fatally shoots attacking dog | police, greyhound, dog - Colorado Springs Gazette, CO"

Yes, he shot the dog that was attacking his dog, not him. The idea that it is legal to shoot a dog attacking your dog, but not to shoot a dog trying to kill you is absurd.

From the Colorado Animal Cruelty laws (18-9-202):

"A person commits aggravated cruelty to animals if he or she knowingly tortures, needlessly mutilates, or needlessly kills an animal."

Needlessly. No jury would consider self defense of your life "needless".


----------



## dee

I'm glad we live where we do. Oklahoma has a statewide leash law. If a neighbor's dog gets loose and is on your property, you can take whatever action is necessary. _Necessary_ being the operative word. If the dog is just a big old friendly goof, call the neighbor and tell them to come get their dog if you are worried about it getting to your livestock. 

If you've had problems with the dog running your cattle or horses, or killing your chickens shoot it. If you have never seen the dog before and it's running your livestock, chasing and/or killing your chickens - or trying to, shoot it. The owners are in violation of the state leash law and can't do a darn thing about it.

Our horses killed a pit bull several years ago. It had attacked one of our horses on a previous occasion and left some pretty nasty bite marks on her legs. We warned the owner to keep the dog put up or we'd shoot it. We sent him the vet bills, but he didn't have any money, so there was no point in taking him to court - you can't get blood from a turnip.

At any rate, I looked out one day because the horses were having a hissy fit - bucking running, kicking - but I couldn't see anything. Went out to see what all the commotion was about - that dang dog was dead in the pasture. Guess the horses got tired of him harrassing them. _Neighbor tried to sue us!_ Didn't get anywhere - judge told him if the horses hadn't killed the dog, we certainly could have since the dog was running loose - in violation of the state leash law.


----------



## sabowin

I just recently learned (via news article, so not the most reliable source!) that it's legal in our city/county/whatever to shoot a dog to euthanize it, but if you don't accomplish the task, you'll be charged with animal cruelty. There have been two cases lately of dogs found with gunshot wounds who also had a large mass. They surmised the owner thought the mass was cancer and wanted to put the dog down but couldn't afford vet bills for either diagnosis or euthanasia, so DIYed it, but not successfully. I'm not sure the outcome of the first story, but the second dog is making a recovery, and will likely be adopted by the sheriff who answered the call reporting the shot dog. Awww...


----------



## Bearkiller

Ankle biter or not, if a dog attacks anyone in my family it will be put down. I own 6 dogs and enjoy them as much as the next guy but you guys are talking theory. A friend of mine recently got scratched by a stray cat who got into his garage and ended up loosing parts of his hand because he got a bad bacterial infection from it. He was just trying to be nice and put the cat outside. The most basic of civil liberties is ones right to defend themselves and by extension, family. *If *this happened as stated and they file charges, let me know, I'll send you some money to help fight it. Any convictions, even "just a fine" is a violation of basic human liberties. These animal rights people have to be stopped. The idea that one persons right to own a dog(and let it terrorize other people) is more important than "my" right to run livestock on my property or even enjoy not stepping in dog crap when I mow, is completely ridiculous.


----------



## Spotted Image

I didn’t read all of the postings, but we had a problem a while back with dogs killing our livestock. We lost over 60 rabbits, 50 chickens, 5 goats and maybe ducks over these dogs. We would report it to the dog warren and they would come check it out and then return the dog if we trapped it. Many different owners, once the owners got in trouble for no tags. After being on going for so long, he told us don’t call shot the dog, even if it’s just in our yard and call report it the them then burry it. So we now have a couple dogs buried outback, but only shot them if they messing with out animals.


----------



## Cowgirl07

You must be in a bind I hope your husband gets out of it I wish you the best of luck


----------



## EthanQ

my bro and i were riding our horses and our neighbors piutbull came at us several times. and the police were called but they didnt do anything my dad took care of him


----------



## raywonk

I hope it turns out for you all.


----------



## kywalkers2012

I have been through this once before, here in KY. The neighbor's two dogs were constantly coming down and harassing my pregnant and very valuable broodmare. She was pretty heavily bred, about 7 months along. Well, I gave the owner more than fair chances at keeping their dogs safe. I told the neighbor three times to keep his dogs chained up or the next time they came down harassing my mare I was going to shoot them. The fourth time the dogs came down into the pasture and was chasing and barking at my mare, I took the high powered rifle and shot one of them and the other ran off. The owner came down and was beyond mad and after a few choice words I called the sheriff down to sort this out and he told the man that everything I did was completely legal. He even told the guy that I was beyond complying with the law. He told the guy that I didn't have to even give him the first chance at tying his dogs. So, needless to say, he chained the other dog up. But, unfortunately, I gave them too many chances and it was too much stress on my mare and she wound up aborting the foal. So, it's all kind of pointless to me now. You've just got to protect whats your's and if people can't understand that then it's their ignorance.


----------

