# Possibly a purchase...



## existentialpony (Dec 4, 2012)

Registered arabian, 14.3hh and 10y/o, finished for western pleasure, a molasses slow & smooth jog and lope. I rode him today and he is absolutely lovely; light in the mouth, sets his head and collects, super responsive to leg, makes me look like I'm a good rider... HA. 

Any glaring conformation issues? I love the way he's built. The first two images are the owner's, the last three are mine-- the final one, he's being a goof in the crossties, so don't mind the funny stance. He has a bit of a grass belly because he hasn't been ridden as much as he should lately, but that is no problem for me. I have time to ride aplenty!


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## lilruffian (Jun 28, 2010)

The only "glaring" issues i see are the neck is too long, shoulder is a tad upright, he is a bit high in the wither and there is something off with his back legs.
Apart from that, he has nice hindquarters, back is a good length and i dont see anything seriously off with the front legs, other than he _may_ stand slightly under himself, but could just be the photos


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## existentialpony (Dec 4, 2012)

Thank you! About being under himself-- I think it was partially him being fidgity. We were messing with him trying to make him stand pretty.  Here is another shot of his front end.

Also, I attached a video of him from about a year ago. I plan to do a bit of competitive trails with him, so WP isn't the only think I'm wanting him for.


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## BBBCrone (Jan 28, 2012)

Wooooooo I like! I don't see anything glaring. I agree with lilruffian about his neck. But then depending on his lines, that might be just his breeding. Some breeders are going for that real long neck.

He has good bone IMO. His feet look very good. Fourth photo down, front end shot. Take a look at that right hoof. It appears to be slightly different shaped than the left. His knee on that side appears to be a bit higher almost like the hoof is taller. This could all be just an effect of the photo and not important but is something I did notice. Lookout for it and see if it's there in person and check it out.

Otherwise, beautiful


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## goneriding (Jun 6, 2011)

Just a thought, the angle of the cement is probably on a slight grade for run off. Maybe that is why the knee looks slightly off. Overall he is nice.


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## BBBCrone (Jan 28, 2012)

goneriding said:


> Just a thought, the angle of the cement is probably on a slight grade for run off. Maybe that is why the knee looks slightly off. Overall he is nice.


Actually that is an excellent point. I was so concentrated on a look at the hooves, I didn't even notice that possibility. Good eye!


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

He has a bit of a dip behind the withers but for an Arab he is substantial. 

In the riding video he is OVER the bit and ON HIS FOREHAND. This horse has been trained front to back and his long neck has made it difficult for him to lighten his forehand and easy for him to be Over the bit. He needs to go back to a snaffle and learn to move foreward with his nose ahead of the vertical and learn to truly lighten his forehand. He is not using his ring of muscles at all.. someone has trained him using the curb a bit too soon and he is light in the mouth as a result but he is heavy heavy heavy on the forehand. 

IMO fixing a horse over the bit like this is a large project and one of the hardest things to fix in a horse that has been trained like this. I look at his coformation shots and he has muscular develment along and just above the jugular groove but the top of his neck and the root of his neck is under developed indicating he is NOT using his ring of muscles.

As further proof of this, his belly sags. He has no abdominal muscle development at all (which is necessary for a horse to raise his forehand and work off his hind quarters).


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## Cacowgirl (Feb 19, 2011)

A nice looking fellow-I like him. Really nice bone, & looks like he can get the job done. He's a nice size & a good age.


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## Weezilla (Aug 3, 2012)

As usual, I concur with Elana on all counts, and she speaks conformation judg-ese far better than I do. Its a shame, really, that his training was so incorrect. He is an awfully handsome fellow.


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## EmilyJoy (Dec 30, 2011)

Ah I love the bay!!


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## BBBCrone (Jan 28, 2012)

I never looked at the video. I definitely see what Elana is talking about.

A question about this. Is that making the look of his neck worse? So maybe it isn't as long as it looks but not developed right? Did I make sense? LOL


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

It is a bit long.. but the over development of the underside of the neck make it awkward in the standing photos. Sadly, this horse CAN do it.. just look at him in the still shots moving w/o a rider. 

It is VERY easy to get an Arabian over the bit.. they are drivey horses and tend toward a high head carriage. People want the head down.. so they get the head down.. and this is often the result (over the bit).


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## existentialpony (Dec 4, 2012)

Elana said:


> It is a bit long.. but the over development of the underside of the neck make it awkward in the standing photos. Sadly, this horse CAN do it.. just look at him in the still shots moving w/o a rider.
> 
> It is VERY easy to get an Arabian over the bit.. they are drivey horses and tend toward a high head carriage. People want the head down.. so they get the head down.. and this is often the result (over the bit).


You know, I can't look and see the exact things you do, but I switched him to a french snaffle I had today and in addition to being very different to ride, whenever I wasn't asking him for the arabian tuck (ha) he seemed to really let his neck out without throwing it up if that makes sense? Will this kind of riding be good for him?

He has a big old grass belly, so I plan to do a lot of round pen work to let him build muscle according to his movement without a rider. That being said, I will say he seems very different from his video-- probably because I am by no stretch of the imagination a person who has ridden fancy Arabs and asked for that sort of thing.

I guess my question is-- with lots of lessons and muscle-building, and considering that I don't ever plan to show seriously so much as I do for fun (I'd rather pick up competitive trails, as I mentioned) do you think he will be good for my purpose?


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

work on getting him to drop his neck /head , ride relaxed for a while, then ask for some collection. he should be fine for trail and they may like him WP, but probably would like to see the neck /head a tad lower. Did you say endurance? a lot of the Arabs are used for endurance and excel at it.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Hils Hills Hills... Trotting up hills on a long rein and the rider in a two point and NOT allowing the horse to canter or lope. Teach him to USE his abdominal muscles and drop his head and poke his nose out as he leans into the hill and lengthens his back. Caveletti.. trotting over poles on the ground.. eventually working up to 8 poles 12 inches off the ground with the rider in a two point and the reins lengthened so the horse can reach forward and down.

He needs to learn to raise the root of his neck and shift his weight to the rear with a rider on board. This comes from leg yields, half halts, driving the horse forward and teaching him to lengthen first then to shorten and lift his front and shift his weight to the rear. It is a long process. You won't get it in a month.. in fact, you will take months to get it because building muscle and balance requires the horse to rethink how the move under you.. and to build new muscle memory. 

Every time he is asked for more than he can do physically, he will default to being over the bit and on the forehand (because that is what he knows and it is easier for him). Getting the horse out of that mind set is a long process.. and something you will likely have to work on for the horse's life IF you can over come it.


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## BBBCrone (Jan 28, 2012)

Elana - this would not prevent the OP from doing what they want with him would it? I mean as far as trail riding/endurance/pleasure? I'm real curious about how this affects a horses soundness later in life. If it does, etc It's one of those aspects of horse ownership I'm real weak on.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

It does not necessarily impact soundness (tho it can because the horse can get knots in their back and strains in the front legs because they carry their weight there). What it does more than anything is make for a less controlled ride and a less comfortable horse that will tire sooner than another horse that can use its ring of muscles. 

I have seen a horse over the bit in a full blown run away.. because they tuck their chin and run like the wind. It is hard to get such a horse to even stop on a one rein stop as they tuck their nose to their chest and have the advantage of leverage.

Every time you get on a horse you have an opportunity to help that horse be stronger and more comfortable carrying you around. You have an opportunity to be a better rider and help the horse be more comfortable in his job. You have an opportunity to build a working partnership with that animal... 

I cannot imagine getting on a horse and "just going for a ride" like a sack of potatoes. If you are going to do that you might as well sell the horse and walk or get a 4 wheeler or something. 

Having ridden a few horses that were true working partners.. where it seems you just THINK what you are going to do next and you do it.. there is no feeling like it on this earth. Riding Pegasus would be second best really and truly.


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## BBBCrone (Jan 28, 2012)

Elana - thanks! I get what you are saying. For my own personal use I will be digging into this further.

existentialpony - I did not mean to hijack your thread. My apologies.


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## existentialpony (Dec 4, 2012)

BBB-- I'm glad you did! I had the same questions.  This is all good for me to know! Thanks Elana!


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## existentialpony (Dec 4, 2012)

Thanks again for pointing out the issues with muscle development on his neck (I see it now!) and about what I can do to help him work off of his back end. I can look into these things. I think I am pulling the trigger on him!  I plan to ride a whole lot over the next two years, and I am willing to put in the effort with a trainer and on the trails to help correct his issues. Between the fact that I'm getting him for way less than his marked price (and his bloodlines--his full brother is selling for 20k in Scottsdale right now!), his unusually gentle and quiet disposition especially for an Arabian, and just his overall responsiveness and intelligence-- I really think I can make this work.  Thanks guys!!!

Elana, I might be coming back with progress reports in a few months to ask your advice!


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## BBBCrone (Jan 28, 2012)

Good luck and congrats!


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## existentialpony (Dec 4, 2012)

Elana-- one last question, because I don't know about this as well as you do. The gelding from this thread is always either ridden for show in a weighted bridle (news to me that those were a thing!) or a martingale. The owner/trainer insist it is a "reminder" rather than holding him, but I kind of feel like with the lack of muscle you describe and the way he is when I ride him without a martingale, it was more or less holding him and causing him to lean into the forehand... is that correct? So, by riding without these aids and doing lots of transitions, hill trotting, etc, I imagine he will be more likely to work from his hind end... especially if I concentrate on that before I start asking him to set his head. Does this sound right to you?

I also know my seat will need work in helping him to work back-to-front, but that's what lessons are for.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Interestingly.. if your horse is working back to front and using his ring of muscles he will not need his head "set." That will come naturally as he balances and works on his hind end. In order to balance correctly he will start out with his nose ahead of the vertical as he learns to work forward. As he builds an abdominal muscle group he will be more able to raise his front end when you request him to with a half halt while driving him forward with your seat. 

I would start in an arena with a side pull (NO bit) and no martingale. Get him moving forward and un-afraid to bump into the bit. Let him go in a long frame and naturally lower his head as he moves forward with a longish stride. Don't be afraid to post videos in the training section of this forum. Sit up straight and drive him forward with legs and seat and only bump him with reins.. keeping them loose. 

It will all be a new experience for him but that is what you need.. to get away from what he has been doing. If he gets going fast and strung out, bump him into a circle or a serpentine. Work at the walk and the trot. I would do something quite different.. but that is me working the horse and not you... and I am not there.


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## westdressgirl (Dec 13, 2012)

Looks like a very athletic horse, very outgoing personality.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Elana.....this is very interesting......thank you......I was looking at the pictures of his neck and gee his windpipe is so prominent, is this because of the poor muscling because of the way he's been ridden?

Does anyone have pics of good necks and bad necks for comparison?


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Take a look at this site Equine Studies Institute Homepage and especially this article:

http://www.equinestudies.org/true_collection_2008/true_collection_2008_pdf1.pdf

And this:

http://www.equinestudies.org/ring_revisited_2008/ring_of_muscles_2008_pdf.pdf

The grey horse (actually may be a dun) shows a horse with a neck that has "turned over" and the bay shows a horse that has developed an "upside down" neck.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

The muscle you want to decrease in size is the Brachiocephalicus. This is the muscle adjacent to the jugular groove.

The muscles you want to develop are the Splenius and Scalenus. The scalenus raises the root of the neck and is a deep muscle while the splenius is just below the crest of the neck and above the Brachiocephalicus. 

You can google Neck muscles of the Horse (or similar) and then click on images.. and a bunch will come up.


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## existentialpony (Dec 4, 2012)

Those pictures really help. I see what you're seeing. Well, I found a small incline on our property for lunging and I spent a loooong time trotting and working on transitions with Jax today, and I see exactly what you mean. By the end of the day he was a little more expectant of transitions so I could feel him working more collected, but those moments were brief. Thank you so much for the help-- I'll be sure to post videos once we have settled in together a bit more.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

It will take you a long time to get this. 

See if you can get a side pull and work him in that (no bit, nose pressure and no pinch action like you get with a curb and curb chain). He will find it altogether different and from there you can start to retrain him.

It will take you a LONG time to build the muscles you need and train him to have the correct muscle memory. Months... really.. longer.. because of the over the bit training so far. 

READ that stuff I linked. You will see what I mean! 

GOOD LUCK.


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## harvesterdaughter (Dec 8, 2012)

He is a beautiful horse!!


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