# What Color?



## bhindes (Nov 22, 2012)

Can you get a brown foal out of 2 black parents? The sire is homozygous for black and the dam is heterozygous. I was expecting a black foal from them but the foal is dark chocolate colored with tan at the muzzle and around the eye. Also all the other soft points like between the thighs, point of the buttock, armpits, etc. are all like a fawn or creme color.


----------



## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Have you got pictures of the dam and sire? Being homozygous for black does not guarantee a "black" foal, it guarantees a black based colour. Bay and brown are both black based.


----------



## bhindes (Nov 22, 2012)

Chiilaa said:


> Have you got pictures of the dam and sire? Being homozygous for black does not guarantee a "black" foal, it guarantees a black based colour. Bay and brown are both black based.


 
Yes I do have pics of both sire and dam. I am not able to post the sires pic as it is used for his advertisement, but he is jet black. Here is a link to his website. I have attached a pic of the dam. There was even an article in the APHA journal that states 2 black horses cannot have a brown foal. This is what has be scratching my head. Is this filly a black with the mealy/ pangrea gene? I know they say it typically does not happen in black horses but I guess you never know.


----------



## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

There is no link there?

Does the mare get sunfaded in weird places, such as under her tail and in her flank?


----------



## bhindes (Nov 22, 2012)

Opps. Sorry here is the link to his website. Wix.com AllAroundShowHorses created by mystallions2 based on Real Estate Biz


----------



## bhindes (Nov 22, 2012)

Chiilaa said:


> There is no link there?
> 
> Does the mare get sunfaded in weird places, such as under her tail and in her flank?


I have attached a pic of the mare when she is sun faded. She still looks very black just not as deep black.


----------



## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Do either of the parents develop the lighter areas of brown with their winter coats? The reason I ask is because there is a mare at my barn that I honestly thought was black up until she got her winter coat growing in and she is the darkest brown I have seen. She still looks almost entirely black, but her muzzle is very light, as is her flank.


----------



## bhindes (Nov 22, 2012)

Poseidon said:


> Do either of the parents develop the lighter areas of brown with their winter coats? The reason I ask is because there is a mare at my barn that I honestly thought was black up until she got her winter coat growing in and she is the darkest brown I have seen. She still looks almost entirely black, but her muzzle is very light, as is her flank.


I know the dam does not develop lighter areas in the winter, but I am not sure about the sire.


----------



## bhindes (Nov 22, 2012)

Poseidon said:


> Do either of the parents develop the lighter areas of brown with their winter coats? The reason I ask is because there is a mare at my barn that I honestly thought was black up until she got her winter coat growing in and she is the darkest brown I have seen. She still looks almost entirely black, but her muzzle is very light, as is her flank.


I know the dam does not develop lighter areas in the winter, but I am not sure about the sire.


----------



## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Wish there were some better pics of the stud... He supposedly sired another brown/dark bay foal off of another black mare (according to allbreed) but I can't verify those pics either.


----------



## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Please tell me you had your mare HYPP tested before breeding her?


----------



## bhindes (Nov 22, 2012)

I thought this might help. Here are some current pics of the filly. Seems like the lighter points in the flank have dissapeared but the golden is still around her muzzle and eye.


----------



## bhindes (Nov 22, 2012)

NdAppy said:


> Wish there were some better pics of the stud... He supposedly sired another brown/dark bay foal off of another black mare (according to allbreed) but I can't verify those pics either.


This link shows more pics of the sire. Hope they help.
New Page 1


----------



## bhindes (Nov 22, 2012)

NdAppy said:


> Please tell me you had your mare HYPP tested before breeding her?


 
The mare is HYPP NN.


----------



## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

The foal is definitely brown, but neither parent is screaming brown to me. Has she been registered?

Upon further though, it is probably that either or both parents are actually brown, but very very dark in their expression.


----------



## bhindes (Nov 22, 2012)

Chiilaa said:


> The foal is definitely brown, but neither parent is screaming brown to me. Has she been registered?
> 
> Upon further though, it is probably that either or both parents are actually brown, but very very dark in their expression.


 
Yes she has been registered. The mare's first foal was similar and looked like a bay for sure out of a chestnut and her last foal before this one was a chestnut out of a chestnut but ended up having a flaxen mane and tail. All the foals were lighter in their soft spots like creme or fawn. I just don't understand the whole genetic thing and was in denil that she could have a brown out of 2 black parents.


----------



## lilruffian (Jun 28, 2010)

What a BUM!!
Oh, and i also agree that she is brown. Do you know what color sire & dam's parents were?


----------



## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Either the sire or the dam is brown.


----------



## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Pic off of APHA of the dam's registration picture and she gives the indication of being brown as well.


----------



## bhindes (Nov 22, 2012)

NdAppy said:


> Pic off of APHA of the dam's registration picture and she gives the indication of being brown as well.


 
The mare is not brown at all. She is jet black. That is her foal picture and she was still changing into her adult coat. She never even looks chocolate nor does she even sun bleach.


----------



## bhindes (Nov 22, 2012)

lilruffian said:


> What a BUM!!
> Oh, and i also agree that she is brown. Do you know what color sire & dam's parents were?


 
The sire side. Sire is bay/ dark brown and dam is black. Dam side sire is black and dam is chestnut with a flaxen mane and tail.


----------



## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Brown does not equal looking chocolate. A brown horse can have a large percentage of completely black hair and still be a genetic brown. Your mare (who you said a few posts ago DOES sun fade) has the indicators of brown in the pictures, they are just hard to see because she is an unusually dark expression. The sire too looks like he is a really dark brown as opposed to a real black.


----------



## bhindes (Nov 22, 2012)

Chiilaa said:


> Brown does not equal looking chocolate. A brown horse can have a large percentage of completely black hair and still be a genetic brown. Your mare (who you said a few posts ago DOES sun fade) has the indicators of brown in the pictures, they are just hard to see because she is an unusually dark expression. The sire too looks like he is a really dark brown as opposed to a real black.


 
She turns like a smoky black color when she fades. She does not bleach like your typical black horse meaning turn red or brown. She does have palamino in her background but not a single brown horse in her entire 4 generation pedigree.


----------



## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

The foal is definitely brown- which means that either the sire or dam (or both) are actually brown, and not black. Since the foal is registered, parentage should have been verified, so that rules out the sire not actually being the sire.

From the pictures, it's a toss up as to who's brown and who's black with them. Stallion owners will often have their horses genetically color tested since people often want to know the color genetics before selecting a stallion to breed to, so you could check with them if they did an agouti test and not just the extension (black) test. You could easily test your mare as well; you just pull a few mane hairs and send them in with $25: link


----------



## Tryst (Feb 8, 2012)

Principal Investment, the stallion's sire, is a brown (looking at photos on google) not a bay.


----------



## MelissaAnn (Aug 26, 2011)

I love a bad *** brown with tons of white! Congratulations!


----------



## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

I really wish I had a picture of the brown mare at the farm. She looks completely black with the brown/tan muzzle. Favor is brown, no doubt about it. My boy is also brown, but he looks bay. Browns are like chameleons XD


----------



## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

bhindes said:


> She turns like a smoky black color when she fades. She does not bleach like your typical black horse meaning turn red or brown. She does have palamino in her background but not a single brown horse in her entire 4 generation pedigree.


Bay is dominate over brown and red based horses can carry brown and bay and not have it be visible due to the lack of black pigment to work with.


----------



## lilruffian (Jun 28, 2010)

NdAppy said:


> Bay is dominate over brown and red based horses can carry brown and bay and not have it be visible due to the lack of black pigment to work with.


 Just a _sort of_ off topic question; bay and brown are caused by the same thing correct? Black horse with agouti?
If so, then is it correct to say that browns are just very dark versions of bay, where the black has not been restricted to such an extreme degree?


----------



## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Bay, brown and wild bay are forms of agouti.


----------



## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

lilruffian said:


> Just a _sort of_ off topic question; bay and brown are caused by the same thing correct? Black horse with agouti?
> If so, then is it correct to say that browns are just very dark versions of bay, where the black has not been restricted to such an extreme degree?


Yes and no. They are separate mutations, so they should be named differently. If we were to continue that logic, then dominant white, tobiano, sabino and roan should all be called one name, as they are all mutations of the same gene.

Brown and bay do act differently, it is not just a matter of one being darker than the other. They both do restrict black, but in different ways, not just to a lesser or higher degree.


----------



## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

lilruffian said:


> Just a _sort of_ off topic question; bay and brown are caused by the same thing correct? Black horse with agouti?
> If so, then is it correct to say that browns are just very dark versions of bay, where the black has not been restricted to such an extreme degree?


Not technically.

The genes for bay and brown _ARE_ both variations of the agouti gene, but the genes themselves are distinct from each other. Bay is A. Brown is At. Non-agouti is a. A horse can have any combination of these genes (not including wild bay for now). Bay is dominant over brown, so a horse that is AAt will be bay but can produce brown foals.


----------



## bhindes (Nov 22, 2012)

Please excuse me for not understanding but how can a horse like the one below be a brown when she has no indicaters such as tan between the back legs, muzzle, eyes, etc.of being brown nor does she have any brown in her pedigree. Her sire was also jet black. I understand that the filly is bown but what I don't understand is that how do you get a brown foal from 2 black parents. The pics of the sire do not do him justice. If you watch the video on the website it clearly shows his color as being a jet black not brown. I know his sire Principle Investment is brown but the fillies sire is black.


----------



## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

to bhindes.. i think what everyone is telling you, is that even though a horse looks black even jet black, that it can actually be a brown . the only way to be certain is to have the color test done .


----------



## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

I can see brown indicators in the pictures provided of the dam. If they aren't there, then you need to show us pictures that don't show them. It doesn't have to be "tan" - any lightening there that isn't caused by sun fading is an indication. I can see that she is really dark, but if you look closely under her butt, you can see that she is brown there, not black (in the photos provided). You can also see this warmer colour under her belly towards her flank. Again, this is just in the pictures provided. I would expect her to be far more faded across the rest of the body if I were to believe that this colour change could be from sun fading. 

As far as brown not being in her pedigree, you said that she is out of a line of red based horses (chestnut/sorrel and palominos IIRC). This means that the gene needed to create brown could have hidden right up until your mare, as it only acts on black based horses. Red based horses can carry it, but they don't exhibit it.

Put it another way - there is no way to get a brown foal from two parents that are truly black. One of them HAS to be brown or bay, there is no possible way around that fact.


----------



## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

Chiilaa said:


> I can see brown indicators in the pictures provided of the dam. If they aren't there, then you need to show us pictures that don't show them. It doesn't have to be "tan" - any lightening there that isn't caused by sun fading is an indication. I can see that she is really dark, but if you look closely under her butt, you can see that she is brown there, not black (in the photos provided). You can also see this warmer colour under her belly towards her flank. Again, this is just in the pictures provided. I would expect her to be far more faded across the rest of the body if I were to believe that this colour change could be from sun fading.
> 
> As far as brown not being in her pedigree, you said that she is out of a line of red based horses (chestnut/sorrel and palominos IIRC). This means that the gene needed to create brown could have hidden right up until your mare, as it only acts on black based horses. Red based horses can carry it, but they don't exhibit it.
> 
> Put it another way - there is no way to get a brown foal from two parents that are truly black. One of them HAS to be brown or bay, there is no possible way around that fact.


Are there any research / educational websites where I can learn more  Getting lots of conflicting thoughts from different forums.:-|


----------



## lilruffian (Jun 28, 2010)

I agree that it's hard to believe looking at the parents alone, as they are SO dark, but the filly speaks for herself. She is definitely not black, which means one parent is playing tricks with their color.


----------



## bhindes (Nov 22, 2012)

Chiilaa said:


> I can see brown indicators in the pictures provided of the dam. If they aren't there, then you need to show us pictures that don't show them. It doesn't have to be "tan" - any lightening there that isn't caused by sun fading is an indication. I can see that she is really dark, but if you look closely under her butt, you can see that she is brown there, not black (in the photos provided). You can also see this warmer colour under her belly towards her flank. Again, this is just in the pictures provided. I would expect her to be far more faded across the rest of the body if I were to believe that this colour change could be from sun fading.
> 
> As far as brown not being in her pedigree, you said that she is out of a line of red based horses (chestnut/sorrel and palominos IIRC). This means that the gene needed to create brown could have hidden right up until your mare, as it only acts on black based horses. Red based horses can carry it, but they don't exhibit it.
> 
> Put it another way - there is no way to get a brown foal from two parents that are truly black. One of them HAS to be brown or bay, there is no possible way around that fact.


 
I also mentioned her sire is a true jet black as well. I have pics of the dams sire but they are not on a computer. I have attached more pics of the dam. Tell me what you see. I will also have the dam checked, but I do not believe she is brown. I beleive the sire is. He also has a lot of brown horses in his pedigree including his sire.


----------

