# Wich mare to breed?



## jxclass19 (Feb 1, 2009)

Ok so I have this breeding to an American Cream Draft. I have had it for maybe two years. I was supposed to breed him to my Thoroughbred Classy but she didn't take. 
Butt head 

Any ways I have a couple other mares. 
I have Sweet Pea, a 15.3hh brown QH. She is about 15yrs.
Then I have Oatie, a 15.1hh Appaloosa. She is 16yrs.
Lastly there is Aspen she is a 15.2ish hh. She is 3ys.

It wouldn't be till may when I breed who ever I end up breeding. 
Anyways who do you think would be the best cross with him?
He is a BIG boy :]

{Sorry the picture of Sweet Pea isn't very good.}


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## jxclass19 (Feb 1, 2009)

Oatie doesn't really toe out in the back it is just how she is standing.

And Aspen's neck isn't really that ugly.


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## equus717 (Aug 20, 2009)

i think that sweetpea would be the best one to breed IMO. the other 2 look a lot smaller and i would think that you want your mare to be able to carry the foal full term. i think that sweetpea would do that and also that she could stand the weight of the stud on her back better as well. i think that she would compliment the stud better as well.


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## Wallaby (Jul 13, 2008)

Can you get a better conformation type picture of Sweet Pea? It's kinda hard to judge her confo against his when her head is down and the picture is taken more from the front than from the side. :wink:

The stud is really pretty!

Edit: You have a better picture of Sweet Pea in your barn thingy. =) I'm having a hard time choosing between sweet Pea and Aspen. On the one hand, Sweet Pea is rather over at the knee which could result in a baby that is back at the knee, which wouldn't be so great. Aspen seems to have a rather short neck which could cause her to have a very muscular short necked baby that would be hard to get collected. Oatie appears (but it might just be that lead rope throwing me off) to be the worst out of the bunch in terms of back at the kneed-ness, that's just why I'm not considering her.


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## jxclass19 (Feb 1, 2009)

Oatie's knees aren't bad. She is VERY flat knee'd. Her right knee looks like that from an old injury.


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## Wallaby (Jul 13, 2008)

Well, in that case, I don't know. Haha

Good luck!


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## jxclass19 (Feb 1, 2009)

^^bump^^


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## ilovemyPhillip (Apr 4, 2009)

Aspen is a little young to breed anyways. Only 3, a bit too young in my opinion .

Sweet Pea since she is tallest and would probably help to carry the foal .
My opinions.


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## upsidedown (Jul 10, 2008)

I don't think height is really an issue. As far as I know the baby won't outgrow the mother's womb, just have a lot more growing to do outside the womb. Just pick the mare that better suits the stud, your mare's are all within 3 inches of each other height-wise anyway.


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## dressagebelle (May 13, 2009)

I personally would probably breed him to Oatie. You didn't say what you wanted to do with the baby though, which might change my opinion. But her longer neck would help offset his thicker shorter neck, and same with her more refined head. He is a very pretty big boy. Hopefully you get a good baby from him.


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## Lollygag (Aug 26, 2009)

Just, why, exactly, do you want to breed a grade foal?


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## jxclass19 (Feb 1, 2009)

This thread isn't for talking about why I shouldn't breed a grade horse. I just want an opinion on which of my mares would be the best.


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## Lollygag (Aug 26, 2009)

jxclass19 said:


> This thread isn't for talking about why I shouldn't breed a grade horse. I just want an opinion on which of my mares would be the best.


I wouldn't breed any of them, frankly. They aren't breed examples and it's completely irrelevant anyway, since you want a grade foal out of a stallion who *also* isn't breeding quality.

It's hugely of irresponsible if you ask me. Unless, of course, you intend to keep the foal its whole life no matter what it comes out looking/acting like.


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## APHA MOMMA (Jul 10, 2009)

I really like aspen. I know she is only 3 though but if you are waiting till May is she going to be 4 by then? I just think Aspen is gorgeous and I would just thrive to see the color foal that would come out. I also love her structure. Good luck in choosing.


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## jxclass19 (Feb 1, 2009)

How aren't they breed examples???


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I personally wouldn't really want to breed any of them either. None of the mares (or the stallion) really have stunning confo and none of them really compliment him/offset his faults either.

However, since you are probably going to do it anyway, I think that Oatie would be your best bet. She is the best conformed of the 3 and just seems sturdier. I would really avoid breeding him to Aspen because IMHO, she is far too young to support a foal from such a large breed.


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## jxclass19 (Feb 1, 2009)

Please don't talk crap about my horses. If you aren't going to answer the simple question then don't post.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I was not talking crap, I was stating what I consider to be obvious and only offered my opinion (which you asked for). I stand by my post.


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## Fire Eyes (May 13, 2009)

_Smrobs wasn't talking **** about your horses. She simply said they aren't perfect conformation wise, a lot of horses aren't. 

I agree Oatie would be your best bet, Aspen is a bit too small.
Saying that, I wouldn't breed any of them. 
_


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## Lucara (Apr 5, 2008)

jxclass19 said:


> Please don't talk crap about my horses. If you aren't going to answer the simple question then don't post.


I think she meant from Lollygag who has not replied back to her.


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## roro (Aug 14, 2009)

I wouldn't breed any of them. I'm not trying to be mean about your horses, but the market is bad right now and there is no demand for backyard bred horses like these would create. Do you have any valid reason to breed them? And yes this isn't what you asked for but that is the answer you should take.


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## jxclass19 (Feb 1, 2009)

Well your right I am breeding them anyways. I am planning on showing it. It can be registered. And if I breed it it to Aspen or Sweetie it would be a buckskin. Most likley dun so there is another regisery it could be reg. with. And a lot of trail riding. I want something more laid back then my horses as they are all hot. I am also thinking of doing the low levels of Dressage. I can't show Oatie anymore, Aspen is my moms, and Sweet pea is a barrel horse. So I want some fresh blood.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

If all your horses are hot, why would you breed one of them to get a calm foal? Just curious.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Spastic_Dove said:


> If all your horses are hot, why would you breed one of them to get a calm foal? Just curious.


And considering the fact that foal won't necessarily be calm (as they take a lot from mom's side anyway)... :roll:


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## roro (Aug 14, 2009)

jxclass19 said:


> Well your right I am breeding them anyways. I am planning on showing it. It can be registered. And if I breed it it to Aspen or Sweetie it would be a buckskin. Most likley dun so there is another regisery it could be reg. with. And a lot of trail riding. I want something more laid back then my horses as they are all hot. I am also thinking of doing the low levels of Dressage. I can't show Oatie anymore, Aspen is my moms, and Sweet pea is a barrel horse. So I want some fresh blood.


If you want a good new horse, then buy one. You won't get anything very desirable out of these horses, trust me. And btw dun and buckskin are the same registry http://www.americanbuckskin.org/ I don't think anything out of your horses will look like that.


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## roro (Aug 14, 2009)

roro said:


> If you want a good new horse, then buy one. You won't get anything very desirable out of these horses, trust me. And btw dun and buckskin are the same registry AMERICAN BUCKSKIN REGISTRY ASSOCIATION, INC. ~ A.B.R.A. I don't think anything out of your horses will look like that.


I'm sorry if I sound rude but if you don't like the horses you have, breeding them will not make a great horse, it will combine the faults of its parents.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> It can be registered


What could it be registered as? (Just curious)

'Hot' horses are horses with a lot of energy and motivation but who don't have a rider who has figured out how to channel it. Horses who have an enjoyable job to channel there energy soon calm down.


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## upsidedown (Jul 10, 2008)

I'm not going to offer my opinion on the breeding but I will say colorwise - 

You're not guaranteed a buckskin unless your mare is homozygous black and agouti or the stallion is (looking at him I'd say he's cremello as opposed to smokey cream or perlino, in which case he'd have to be homozygous agouti and your mare homozygous black). You're not even guaranteed a buckskin or a palomino. You could get smokey black, which I think will disappoint you massively. In case you don't know what it looks like, my mare I HIGHLY suspect to be smokey black (even if she's not, its what they look like):
At the beginning of the summer, not quite black:








Middle of the summer - Dark bay, turning very brown.








End of summer - dark liver chestnut color (bad picture, but the only one I have. just imagine, this is her in a shadow!)








And shaved:









If you are breeding just for color I suggest you look more into the homozygosity status of the mare and stallion in question. I always feel like people get disapointed when they breed to a double dilute and get a at the best of times bay-looking or black-looking smokey black (at the worst of times inbetween) expecting a gold colored buckskin or palomino without realizing it was a posibility.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Ugh. You clearly don't have the slightest idea what the term "conformation" means, nor do you have any clue about color genetics considering you somehow believe that cream gened horses can produce duns, and are also uneducated enough to think you're "going to get a buckskin". 

Obviously color means everything to you since you're absolutely blind to the myriad of faults every horse you posted has. If you're going to post ignorant topics, you're going to get ignorant comments. Some of us actually give a dang about proper breeding etiquette and the lives of the animals we ultimately affect.

What exactly are you going to do with a half-Draft foal anyway? On that note, I somewhat have my doubts a breeding even exists considering there's less then 400 registered American Cream Drafts in America and breeding regulations are viewed strictly for preservation of the breed.


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## roro (Aug 14, 2009)

Can I just say something? Not only to jxclass19, but the whole horse industry? BREEDING FOR COLOR IS STUPID, VAIN, UNCARING, UNPREDICTABLE, AND RUINING THE HORSE INDUSTRY. Nobody wants a lame horse just because it's buckskin. I would rather see the world filled with chestnuts (the color breeder's worst nightmare) that were sound then some buckskin horses that look, move, and act like goats. If all the stallion has going for him is his cream coloring, he should NOT be bred. Same for mares.


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## jxclass19 (Feb 1, 2009)

Ok i am not breeding for color! As i clearly stated if you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything!


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## jxclass19 (Feb 1, 2009)

I didn't ask for you to bash my horses. I am experienced and I know what he porduces as well as my mares. I know alot about breeding and genetics, etc. Don't asume I am not experienced becuase I want to breed my mare. I didn't say I couldn't control them! Oatie is hot as she is a trained saddle seat horse and that is what you want!!!!!! I don't care if you disagree I don't care! Aspen isn't hot at all she is a dead head trail horse! And Sweetie is only hot when she is running the barrels. WHICH MOST TEND TO BE!!!!!!! Now I am going to say it one more time. If you don't have anything nice to say then shut up!


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## roro (Aug 14, 2009)

jxclass19 said:


> And a lot of trail riding. I want something more laid back then my horses as they are all hot. .


Maybe I would trust your breeding knowledge if you spoke in an understandable manner.


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## vivache (Jun 14, 2009)

I don't think anyone wants to 'bash' your horses.

Only exceptionally well bred/proven horses should be bred. That goes for any species, be it horses or rats. You'd be pretty darn upset if you couldn't ride that future foal at all because of a conformation issue.. these people are only trying to save you from that.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

_



And a lot of trail riding. I want something more laid back then my horses as *they are all hot*. .

Click to expand...

_


> Oatie is hot as she is a trained saddle seat horse and that is what you want!!!!!! I don't care if you disagree I don't care! *Aspen isn't hot at all she is a dead head trail horse!* And Sweetie is only hot when she is running the barrels. WHICH MOST TEND TO BE!!!!!!! Now I am going to say it one more time. If you don't have anything nice to say then shut up!


I only mentioned hot horses as you said earlier that they are all hot. (just a note, my horse are never hot when running barrels, they know their job, do it, and then relax.)

I am not bashing your horses. I asked earlier, out of curiosity, what could you register the foal as? I really would like to know the answer.

I haven't said don't breed. I didn't comment about your horses. I'm in a different country so i'm not really qualified to comment on wether you should breed or not. I might have a different view if I were in amongst your economy.

*Just a note, it is always a risk posting something online that you will get answer/comments you don't like. You can't really post a disclaimer saying *Please only say nice things and ignore any bad things*


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> Oatie is hot as she is a trained saddle seat horse


This is just a question but isn't saddle seat for gaited horses? May be totally off base here. And Oatie is the paint/appy yes? Is she gaited?


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## roro (Aug 14, 2009)

I would like you to read all of this article: Auction Report: Toffield, Alberta, Canada Fugly Horse of the Day
After you have read it:
Look at 14. That is what you are about to breed, and it went to a kill buyer because it was not good enough for a horse owner. Please do not breed the horses.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

^^ Reading those things always depresses me. To see some of those horses like that papered filly with 30 days riding that went to the kill buyer. It just breaks my heart. :,,,(


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## roro (Aug 14, 2009)

smrobs said:


> ^^ Reading those things always depresses me. To see some of those horses like that papered filly with 30 days riding that went to the kill buyer. It just breaks my heart. :,,,(


Well, the best way to keep horses away from kill buyers is 1. good breeding and papers/registration and 2. good training. I am concerned that whatever foal comes out of the cream stallion and whatever mare will have neither of these things.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Roro, I was about to post the same thing. 
There have been no mean or bashing posts. Honesty is not mean. 
Could you just answer us WHY you want advice about breeding these horses instead of just getting something already on the ground? If you have a good answer, we'll probably shut up! 


And just a pet-peeve side note..."Hot" should not be confused with having speed/agility and making a good barrel horse. Hot is a highly undesirable trait in barrel horses or really any horse for that matter. It is a problem stemming from training.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

God that makes me cry.... what the **** people? Those horses had NO reason (not that there ever is a real reason) to be put in that situation.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

roro said:


> I would like you to read all of this article: Auction Report: Toffield, Alberta, Canada Fugly Horse of the Day


Those reports make me sick... We have auction pretty close (although as far as I know there are not many KBs there), and it breaks me almost any time I go there to get some tack...  

To the OP, this forum is not just for "nice sweet" comments, and everyone has a right to post an opinion as long as it's done in polite way. Many of us receive critics in our own posts and there is nothing here to be so mad about. You can just post the pics in "Pictures" section, and I'm sure you'll get LOTS of nice words about your mares.


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## Tennessee (Dec 7, 2008)

*blink* I think someone needs to learn about breeding and genetics. Those horses would produce s*** if you ask me.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I wasn't TRYING to be rude, but you make it **** hard not to be when you waltz in here with conformation fault loaded mares and then throw a fit because you think they're "perfect". How knowledgeable can you POSSIBLY be if you think aged trail horses should be bred just because some fancy pants "colored" stud happens to be available? You aren't breeding for any reason other then "having a breeding". You obviously don't have a clue about how color genetics work, but we're supposed to regard you as an educated and knowledgeable breeder? Not to mention, you're coming to a public forum for help on which mare has the least potential faults to pass onto a foal. I'd expect that to be something an educated breeder knows.

You can't ask a forum of equestrian knowledgeable people something like this without expecting some negative feedback. If you don't want a negative reaction, go tell your school yard friends who think any baby is KYOOT. Any equestrian worth his or her salt is going to have a thing or two to say about breeding unquality mutts with the economy and equine world being in the state it's in.


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## westonsma (May 19, 2009)

I wouldn't breed your baby, she's only 3. My preference is between 5-13 years old. JMO.


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## westonsma (May 19, 2009)

You know, after going back and looking again, and reading some of the other posts, it kinda lit a fire under my hide. Actually, it more or less REALLY ****ed me off. And OP, what ****ed me off was that you ASKED for the advice, but didn't like the answer, and instead of going on about your business, you decided to fire back at the other people for posting? That's relatively childish. 



MacabreMikolaj said:


> Ugh. You clearly don't have the slightest idea what the term "conformation" means, nor do you have any clue about color genetics considering you somehow believe that cream gened horses can produce duns, and are also uneducated enough to think you're "going to get a buckskin".
> 
> Obviously color means everything to you since you're absolutely blind to the myriad of faults every horse you posted has. If you're going to post ignorant topics, you're going to get ignorant comments. Some of us actually give a dang about proper breeding etiquette and the lives of the animals we ultimately affect.
> 
> What exactly are you going to do with a half-Draft foal anyway? On that note, I somewhat have my doubts a breeding even exists considering there's less then 400 registered American Cream Drafts in America and breeding regulations are viewed strictly for preservation of the breed.


This is true, the ACD DOES have less than 400 registered. So Tuffy there is either Grade, or non-existent.



roro said:


> Can I just say something? Not only to jxclass19, but the whole horse industry? BREEDING FOR COLOR IS STUPID, VAIN, UNCARING, UNPREDICTABLE, AND RUINING THE HORSE INDUSTRY. Nobody wants a lame horse just because it's buckskin. I would rather see the world filled with chestnuts (the color breeder's worst nightmare) that were sound then some buckskin horses that look, move, and act like goats. If all the stallion has going for him is his cream coloring, he should NOT be bred. Same for mares.


Absolutely agree, Roro! Period.



MacabreMikolaj said:


> I wasn't TRYING to be rude, but you make it **** hard not to be when you waltz in here with conformation fault loaded mares and then throw a fit because you think they're "perfect". How knowledgeable can you POSSIBLY be if you think aged trail horses should be bred just because some fancy pants "colored" stud happens to be available? You aren't breeding for any reason other then "having a breeding". You obviously don't have a clue about how color genetics work, but we're supposed to regard you as an educated and knowledgeable breeder? Not to mention, you're coming to a public forum for help on which mare has the least potential faults to pass onto a foal. I'd expect that to be something an educated breeder knows.
> 
> You can't ask a forum of equestrian knowledgeable people something like this without expecting some negative feedback. If you don't want a negative reaction, go tell your school yard friends who think any baby is KYOOT. Any equestrian worth his or her salt is going to have a thing or two to say about breeding unquality mutts with the economy and equine world being in the state it's in.


And you know what, OP? You may think what she has to say was rude and crude, but it's not. It's the truth. You don't want to breed a young horse, you don't want to breed an old horse, you don't want to breed a hot horse... even if they WERE conformationally sound, what do you have left? None. Don't breed. Your mares don't have awards. Your mares don't have good conformation or type, and they don't represent the breed well. The TB mare has bad front knees, the gray mare isn't type-y, and is getting up in age, not to mention looks like she's having a hard time standing herself, let alone with a big HUGE baby... And your buckskin? She's ####ing 3!!!! 

If you follow through with breeding these mares at all, you're completely irresponsible, and I will think of you every time I rescue a horse from the KILL PEN. And on top of all that, you don't look much over 16 or 17, so how can you be EXPERIENCED in breeding, EXPERIENCED in color, EXPERIENCED in conformation? I mean, c'mon. If you were, you would NOT have had to ask our advice.

So please, take your answers with a heed to the preaching, and go on. And you can reply however venomously you want, but I'm not checking this post again to read it.

Good luck in growing up, and good luck in becoming a RESPONSIBLE horse owner.


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## jxclass19 (Feb 1, 2009)

No actually I didn't ask for advice. I asked if you had to choose one of the three mares what one would you pick! I am breeding one anyways. So it doesn't matter what you say. I don't care if you don't like my horses. What ever. It isn't your business wether I breed or not! I am going to so get over it. {Wild spot= Saddle seat isn't only for gaited horses and Oatie is just an Appy not a paint.} I know if I bring a horse into the world that isn't already here that I am responsible for it. But people cross breed all the time. Gypsy vanners crossed with Haflingers are selling for 10,000 plus and they are just a cross. A long with many others. So I would appreciate it if you would answer my only question that I asked or please stop posting.


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## jxclass19 (Feb 1, 2009)

I am 18 by the way. My mares do have awards. What you know about that. My Appy is very typey she has been shown ApHC for a long time and has numorous awards. There is no TB what are you tlking about? I am experienced with all of the above. I have sucessfully started, finished, and shown many horses. I have worked on tow different breeding farms. I have done my research on genetics and I am going to take college classes for it.


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## jxclass19 (Feb 1, 2009)

roro said:


> Well, the best way to keep horses away from kill buyers is 1. good breeding and papers/registration and 2. good training. I am concerned that whatever foal comes out of the cream stallion and whatever mare will have neither of these things.


 How can you say my horse wont have good training! You don't know me or my family at all!


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## jxclass19 (Feb 1, 2009)

Do not call my horses mutts. They are all registered with **** good pedigrees! They have all shown on there breed circuit. And not one of them is a trail horse! I don't trail ride as a rule. I show! I don't see why this upsets you so much! I am breeding for a baby for me to keep. Why is that your problem?


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

jxclass19 said:


> Do not call my horses mutts. They are all registered with **** good pedigrees! They have all shown on there breed circuit. And not one of them is a trail horse! I don't trail ride as a rule. I show! I don't see why this upsets you so much! I am breeding for a baby for me to keep. Why is that your problem?


Jx, calm down. If that's the case you SHOULD of start with it. Like post your horses pedigrees (I have no problems posting mine, btw), mention awards they got, mention the achievements of the stud, and so on. Then people would consider your question from THOSE prospectives too. I'm sorry but some of your posts DO sound like all you care about is just color, need for calm foals, and such.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Lets see: 
Appy Mare: Smk Hawks Doli Appaloosa was the one I could find.


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## weefoal (Apr 4, 2009)

First of all I have to strongly disagree with this statement 



> As far as I know the baby won't outgrow the mother's womb, just have a lot more growing to do outside the womb.


Unfortunately I have friends that have had to have foals that were way too big cut out from their dam and lost both the mare and the foal. 

The biggest thing to consider is bone. You should never breed a heavy boned stallion to a fine boned mare. Asking for big trouble there. 

A knowledgeable breeder would never post asking "which mare should I breed to my stallion" Because a knowledgeable breeder knows the answer. 

This so reminds me of that vet poem about a man wanting to breed a really badly conformed mare. But I cant find the poem darn it


Kay


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## Eastowest (Mar 26, 2009)

OK I was not going to jump in to this but being an Appaloosa person, and also being located in MI where the OP lives, I have a couple coments.

Someone said and responded:

_"" On that note, I somewhat have my doubts a breeding even exists considering there's less then 400 registered American Cream Drafts in America and breeding regulations are viewed strictly for preservation of the breed.""_

_""This is true, the ACD DOES have less than 400 registered. So Tuffy there is either Grade, or non-existent.""_

There IS at least one farm with registered cream Draft stallion standing in MI-- I have spoken to his owner. I don't know if he is the one the OP is talking about, but here he is-- 
Horse Drawn Carriage Rides Anywhere in Michigan - Mackinac Pony Company

There certainly could be more.

The OP wrote:
_"My Appy is very typey she has been shown ApHC for a long time and has numorous awards. "_

I checked your website-- Oatie's registered name is Ioalot, and according to the ApHC database, she HAS been shown ApHC-- wth ApHC she has earned one halter point. Has she earned regional or other awards? 

For those curious, here is her pedigree as I found it on Allbreed (checked with the ApHC database and it is pretty much correct)
Ioalot Appaloosa

being a granddaughter of Impressive, hopefully she or her sire has been tested HYPP N/N-- to me that would be a primary consideration-- if she/her sire is not tested N/N I would not choose to breed her to any stallion. 

She looks like a pretty nice mare and her pedigree, while not a "standout" in terms of what is winning today, is not bad either-- -- if she were mine I would breed her to a stallion that would sire a foal registerable as an Appaloosa with the ApHC-- so another Appaloosa, a QH, a TB, or an Arabian. Breeding her to a Cream Draft would not yield a registerable Appaloosa unless you went with one of the various small registries for appaloosa-colored horses (assuming your foal inherited apaloosa color-- since your mare has a QH sire your odds for getting color from her are probably 50/50 or so). I have found the smaller registries are not very meaningful when someone is looking for a registered Appaloosa-- they usually want ApHC papers.

It is possible that you could get a useful sport type foal from the Cream Stallion and Oatie (conformationally she is my favorite of the three mares you posted-- can't tell much about the QH in the grazing photo.) However if you are breeding to sell you might have to keep the foal for a few years and get it started right by a trainer specializing in the discipline it has potential in, meaning a lot of time and $ invested before possibly selling for a meaningful price. 

As others have said, babies from crossbreeding, even nice colored draft crosses, are almost literally available for a dime a dozen-- there are *20* draft cross pinto foals being sold at the Lake Odessa Michigan auction September 12th-- Lake Odessa Horse Auction

These are all black or brown or bay pinto and all Percheron crosses from a farm in Canada and are supposed to be pretty flashy-- but I bet they average $100 or less per head, based on what weanlings are selling for at auction. If this farm could have sold their foals privately for better, they certainly would have, instead of hauling them across country borders to sell at auction. Just something to think about.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

weefoal said:


> The biggest thing to consider is bone. You should never breed a heavy boned stallion to a fine boned mare. Asking for big trouble there.


Actually that's a very interesting question. I do agree with your statement, BTW. But I remember the discussion on that here while back, and I do remember people posted the reference to the vet(?), who said it doesn't matter: the foal can't be any bigger then that.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

Just a thought on the whole big/small sire/dam thing. There was a study done awhile ago where they bred shetlands to Shires. They did a shire stud x shetland mare and a shetland stud x shire mare. The foal by the shetland mare was MUCH smaller than the other due to the mare's womb couldn't accomodate the larger foal additionally due to the small size of the mare/womb a proportionally smaller amount of nutrients were supplied to the foal which resulted in the smaller foal. Even when they were full grown there was noticable size difference. Just an interesting aside... 

Anyways, in my opinion you shouldn't breed any of your mares to that stud. If you are absolutely set on getting the breeding find a mare that suits him and either buy her or rent her (womb rent? LOL) and then breed. That way you will get the best possible foal instead of just getting the best from your mares. Not saying that they're bad horses or anything, but they don't seem to be a good mix with that particular stud and I'm sure that you want to get the best horse possible. That way if worse comes to worse you can always find a good home for the foal as it will more than likely have better confirmation. I know you said you want to keep it for yourself, but you never know what will happen in life. By increasing your horse's inate value you increase their chances of living out a long and healthy life being loved and cared for by anyone if something happens and you HAVE to sell. I can tell you care about your horses and would care about the foal you have so why not make sure it has the absolutely best start in life? That means starting with the best possible parents. Sorry for the book.


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## Nita (May 24, 2007)

> Aspen isn't hot at all she is a dead head trail horse!





> And not one of them is a trail horse!


Confused much? :lol:

Sorry, just had to.

And yeah, I wouldn't breed. None of your horses are exactly what you want from the foal, so don't expect the foal to be something neither parent is.

Want a cross? Go to an auction. There's horses there that need out, horses that are crosses, and horses that will probably be cheaper than the breeding, vet bills, feed.

Good luck finding your baby though. Just please..... There's already so many unwanted horses in the world... Why breed more? Not trying to be rude. Just consider it.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

jxclass19 said:


> Do not call my horses mutts. They are all registered with **** good pedigrees! They have all shown on there breed circuit. And not one of them is a trail horse! I don't trail ride as a rule. I show! I don't see why this upsets you so much! I am breeding for a baby for me to keep. Why is that your problem?


 
Looking at all three of your mares none of them fit the stallion you are stuck with.

If you are going to breed I would lease a quality mare that compliments the stallion and the only possible type would be of the finer type such as a TB. This stallion simply does not compliment any of your mares.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

jxclass19 said:


> And if I breed it it to Aspen or Sweetie it *would be a buckskin. Most likley dun* so there is another regisery it could be reg. with.
> *And a lot of trail riding.* I want something more laid back then my horses as *they are all hot*.





jxclass19 said:


> Oatie is hot as she is a trained saddle seat horse and that is what you want!!!!!! *Aspen isn't hot at all she is a dead head trail horse*! And Sweetie is *only hot when she is running the barrels. WHICH MOST TEND TO BE!!!!!*





jxclass19 said:


> And not *one of them is a trail horse! I don't trail ride as a rule*. I show!


 
Okay, whoa whoa, wait. We are getting a lot of conflicting information here.

First: You being a color expert and all, you do know that buckskin and dun are 2 completely different colors as far as genetics go, right?

Second: Are all your horses hot or not? Do you ride on trails or not? Do you plan to show the foal or use it on trails? Or have you decided to break your own rule and START riding trails when the foal is old enough to be trained?

Third: Most barrel horses tend to be hot because of IMPROPER RIDING/TRAINING.

Fourth: Cross breeding to a cold blooded horse like a draft will NOT guarantee a laid back horse. 99% of the time, horses are hot because that is how they are trained or ridden so if ALL your horses are hot, that doesn't speak very highly of your training techniques or how you ride.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Thanks for clearing that up. Was a bit confused.

But:




> And not one of them is a trail horse!





> Aspen isn't hot at all she is a dead head trail horse!


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## jxclass19 (Feb 1, 2009)

Ok let me clear things up. Aspen is my moms dead head trail horse. When she was mine I showed her. She was never a hot horse. Oatie is hot but that is what I want with her because I used her as a Saddle Seat horse. Sweet Pea is new here I have only had her for about two weeks. I am working on calming her down through the barrels. She is hot but that isn't my fault.

I don't trail ride much but I am wanting to get into camping and trail riding, etc. I can't use Aspen because thats my moms horse. Also as other people said she is too young. At 4 years I don't think she will be. But I probably wont choose her anyways. She was just a thought. I can also wait for her to get a little bit older. 

I do know Buckskins and Duns are differnet. I didn't say they were the same. 

I know with breeding nothing is garunteed. But I have looked into this a lot. I have seen his offspring and talked to his owners about what he passes on to his off spring. 

sorry if I confused you.


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## jxclass19 (Feb 1, 2009)

Oatie has been tested and she is HYPP N/N


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

jxclass19 said:


> Ok let me clear things up. Aspen is my moms dead head trail horse. When she was mine I showed her. She was never a hot horse. Oatie is hot but that is what I want with her because I used her as a Saddle Seat horse. Sweet Pea is new here I have only had her for about two weeks. I am working on calming her down through the barrels. She is hot but that isn't my fault.
> 
> I don't trail ride much but I am wanting to get into camping and trail riding, etc. I can't use Aspen because thats my moms horse. Also as other people said she is too young. At 4 years I don't think she will be. But I probably wont choose her anyways. She was just a thought. I can also wait for her to get a little bit older.
> 
> ...


Then why did you say the two mares were "guaranteed to have buckskins or duns"?. You may want to study more on genetics before you major in them if you don't even know that basic difference. All four of those horses are as capable of siring/foaling a dun as I am capable of giving birth to a horse.

Oatie would be the only mare I'd consider breeding if I somehow had a gun to my head and was forced to breed one. And it sure as heck wouldn't be to a Draft, but maybe with some luck she'll help refine the foal a little bit.

As far as the foal size, I've spoken to a lot of breeders and vet and they all say size doesn't matter. I bred my very dainty 14hh Arab mare to a monster 17hh Hanoverian stud. She foaled without issues, but as an adult, the mare only ever reached 15hh which is the same size as my pure Arab from the same dam and a 15hh stud.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

^^ exactly (in regards to the size) the foal can only grow so big in the womb and once it gets out it can't be made up (at least that much) after it's born. The dam determines the size much more than the father.


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## jxclass19 (Feb 1, 2009)

Just a question why would I study them more if I was going to school to learn about? Isn't that is what school is for?


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## vivache (Jun 14, 2009)

Colleges do expect you to have a bit of knowledge on the subject already. They jump right in.
[/offtopic]


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## jxclass19 (Feb 1, 2009)

I know enough to start.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

Well if you were very interested in the subject you would do everything you can to learn as much as possible. This means independent study, looking for information outside of class, working through genetic problems, etc. Actually this could provide you with good questions and talking points during class. Bring up some of the things you've learned or need clarified. That's a very good way to get the absolute most from college. And really there's only so much your professors have time to cover, so they end up leaving out a lot.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

One thing to remember though I would stick with .edu or .org articles/websites

http://animalscience.tamu.edu/images/pdf/equine/equine-genetics-equine-coat-color.pdf

Here's a coat color calculator

Color Calculator


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## upsidedown (Jul 10, 2008)

weefoal said:


> Unfortunately I have friends that have had to have foals that were way too big cut out from their dam and lost both the mare and the foal.
> 
> The biggest thing to consider is bone. You should never breed a heavy boned stallion to a fine boned mare. Asking for big trouble there.


I'm very sorry about that. I'd like to learn more about this I've heard of studies of a draft to a shetland where there was no problem and foal and mother live, also I've heard of things like below:



MacabreMikolaj said:


> As far as the foal size, I've spoken to a lot of breeders and vet and they all say size doesn't matter. I bred my very dainty 14hh Arab mare to a monster 17hh Hanoverian stud. She foaled without issues, but as an adult, the mare only ever reached 15hh which is the same size as my pure Arab from the same dam and a 15hh stud.


So I'm wondering if there were other problems involved? I've never heard of a horse, or any other animal (humans included), getting too big for the womb. I'm not a breeder or a vet, so I wasn't saying anything with authority hence why I qualified it with "as far as I know" and the above with "I've never heard of". Not trying to sound like the authority on the topic.

Sorry this is so off topic.


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## upsidedown (Jul 10, 2008)

Ignore my last, I've just seen the thread


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## SuperStarsSugar (Sep 9, 2009)

The mares are cute in and of themselves, but I wouldn't reccommend procreation. Sweet Pea, who looks like she'd be the best cross with the stud, has questionable front legs, at least from the pictures, though it's pretty hard to tell. Also, horse market being what it is, it seems really risky to breed for a foal that may not be highly sought after. Is there anyway you could wait to breed until the horse market stabilizes a little?


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## jxclass19 (Feb 1, 2009)

I have waited for a while and I spen $700 on the stud fee for my thoroughbred mare a while ago but she can't reproduce. I am thinking of selling the service though to some one else.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

jxclass19 said:


> I have waited for a while and I spen $700 on the stud fee for my thoroughbred mare a while ago but she can't reproduce. I am thinking of selling the service though to some one else.


I think that'd be the smartest move. Whereas I wouldn't personally breed any of those mares, if you ARE determined to, I can think of thousands of stallions better suited to them and probably for cheaper to. I just don't think you're going to get a very useable horse. It may make a big chunky quiet trail mount, but again, the cross is likely to leave you with something slow and without stamina. You may think you want to keep the foal, but if it turns out being something that isn't much good at anything, do you think anybody else is going to want it either? For that $700 you could get one heck of a nice stock horse and really have a useable horse in a ton of disciplines, something that you could make worth a lot of money with proper training.

Worth thinking about anyway!


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## weefoal (Apr 4, 2009)

Be sure and read your breeding contract. I know for us when we sell a breeding it is NOT transferable without special permission from us. 


Kay


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## Clementine (Sep 24, 2009)

Either Sweetpea or Oatie. Since Aspen is so young, I assume this would be her first foal, and I don't know if I would want to cross her to such a large horse for her first. Oatie is my personal favorite - she has a very pretty face and nice eyes. She also looks like she has a great hip on her.

Whoever you choose, good luck with your baby!


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