# Where Do They Draw The Line?



## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

You see tall guys riding little Reiner's and cutters all the time. 
For me, its not so much your weight but more how you use it. If you are a functional, balanced rider and for example are 6' tall and weigh 180-190 I see no problems with you riding and showing a reiner or cutter. 

Its if you are 180-190lbs and flop around like a sack of potatoes on a small horse that it becomes an issue.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Why not research how long these little horses last with the stresses on their joints with 200 lbs on their back? Many are retired at 5. Horses are designed for running in straight lines, not the hard turns we ask of them.


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## kewpalace (Jul 17, 2013)

DIYHorsemanship said:


> But where do reiners and cutters draw the line for whats to small and what isn't?


As far as I know, they don't draw the line.



DIYHorsemanship said:


> Is it acceptable for a 6ft rider to ride a 14 hand horse or would they get laughed out the show pen?


That is a frequent occurrence as most of the male pro trainers are over six feet and many cutters are right around 14H. The same in cowhorse. Of course most of the horses are pretty stout, too. I think reiners tend to be a little taller in general than most cutters/cowhorses. But the male pro trainers there are still big guys (and many times in more ways then one). I don't know any of the professionals who would get laughed out of the show pen ... for any reason (even if it is GOOD reason!). 



DIYHorsemanship said:


> Whats acceptable and what isn't when your showing?


That is a fluid question so the answer would not be the same anytime you ask it. And it changes with discipline and level. With this particular area (weight/height) it is not so much an issue in the cutter/cowhorse world; I've only dabbled a bit in reining, but from what I see it is similar. What I'd be more concern with (as Saddlebag pointed out) is the way the horses are used.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Saddlebag said:


> Why not research how long these little horses last with the stresses on their joints with 200 lbs on their back? Many are retired at 5. Horses are designed for running in straight lines, not the hard turns we ask of them.


Racehorses run in _straight lines_ (for the most part) and most of them are retired before age 5. 


I won't argue that there are plenty of horses that are started too young and pushed too hard for their career, and end up being retired because of it.

But technically, horses are not "designed" to have a saddle on their back either. 
Or go through a jumping course. 
Or run down a cow. 
Or turn a barrel. 

Nothing what we humans ask of a horse is what they were "designed" to do.


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## jenkat86 (May 20, 2014)

Saddlebag said:


> Why not research how long these little horses last with the stresses on their joints with 200 lbs on their back? Many are retired at 5. Horses are designed for running in straight lines, not the hard turns we ask of them.


Saddlebag, you certainly have a point here but I'm going to play devil's advocate. My 28 year old AQHA mare is just above 14 hands. She is a very stocky type QH. TONS of power in those back legs. I quit riding her 2 years ago due to her arthritis. At that time I was 5'8" @160 lbs (wish I still was!). She had a full career of working cow horse. I got her around her 19th birthday, and she had the same owner from birth- 19. He wasn't a little guy! Yes- she did develop arthritis...but she was retired at 26. TWENTY- SIX! I think that's a great, great, great working career. 

Many reiners and cutters are "retired" while they are under 10 years of age. But most still make really great, sound all around horses into their retirement.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

As another devil's advocate question: How do you tell what changes were induced because of work that was too hard too soon, and what changes were genetically going to show up anyway?

I bought Red when he was 6-year-old. Basically was a fat, green, pasture puff when I bought him. He had been trail ridden a little bit but that was it. After 1 year of riding, I started noticing problems and come to find out his right hock is already halfway fused and his left hock has the start of a bone spur. AND he has bursitis in both front feet, worse on the left. 

Now if he were ridden hard as a 2 or 3 year old, some would say that the hard work made him lame. But that wouldn't be true. He would have had problems anyway, because that was just the luck of the draw. 

So how do you know that early hard work makes a horse lame? Or that it would have happened anyway?

As another example, my vet used to have a goat tying horse that pretty much did nothing more than trail riding and making a goat run every now and then (running in a straight line). And my vet said that horse had the worst hocks she has ever seen. Why? He wasn't over-used. He just had bad genetics.


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## sorral3 (Jun 7, 2013)

Saddlebag said:


> Why not research how long these little horses last with the stresses on their joints with 200 lbs on their back? Many are retired at 5. Horses are designed for running in straight lines, not the hard turns we ask of them.


 the simple answer is, many are retired young because they are started and worked hard young. In the old days horses were put out to pasture until they were 4-5. In today's hurry up and make a dollar world, horses are started at 2, in competition by 2 1/2 to 3, and the young bodies break down faster.


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## ReiningCrazy (Jan 20, 2012)

Don't forget that trainers who show their own horses in events like reining usually only show in the 3 year old furturity and the 4-6 year old derbies as that is where the money is. The horse might then retire as breeding stock or sold to someone else just starting in. Showing a 7 year old will still make money but the big money is 3-6, therefore that is what is usually shown, unless your a non-pro, rookie or green as grass rider. Most horses are still sound and sane but with the ability to ride for bigger money and only allowed to ride a certain number of horses they stick with younger stock.

My Reiner was started around 2, wasn't ready for the furturity at three (I bought him a month before he turned 3), was kept in training but not pushed. Showed in one green horse show last year as a 4 year old. I started riding him at the end of that show season, this year as a 5 year old we are still learning and enjoying other things then reining. I will show him as a 6 year old. My trainer is a normal 6'2 man, I'm a curvy 5'6 female and Lionel is 14.2 and stocky, yet doesn't need to retire he has many, many years left.


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## Textan49 (Feb 13, 2015)

There is no one solid answer to this. If a horse has a genetic predisposition to a problem it is likely to show up under any conditions. It does make sense to me that a horse is more likely to break down (if it ever does) by being pushed before it is fully matured regardless of genetics. There certainly are race hoses that were started young and remained sound into old age.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

sorral3 said:


> the simple answer is, many are retired young because they are started and worked hard young. In the old days horses were put out to pasture until they were 4-5. In today's hurry up and make a dollar world, horses are started at 2, in competition by 2 1/2 to 3, and the young bodies break down faster.





Saddlebag said:


> Why not research how long these little horses last with the stresses on their joints with 200 lbs on their back? Many are retired at 5. Horses are designed for running in straight lines, not the hard turns we ask of them.


 
I feel like a broken record on these threads but her goes...LOL

I have ridden show horses(cutters, reiners, reined cowhorses) that were started at two, futurity, derby, aged, open, non-pro, youth and then went onto to be sound family mounts. Rode some that were retired early or always had problems.

Ranch horses same thing, rode some that were started later and crippled by 9. Rode others that were started as two year olds, cowboyed on, then the kids were cutting a circle on them and learning to rope off of them well into their 20's.

_Too many factors other than age he was started contribute to the longevity of a horse's career!_

How do explain this horse?
This horse was started as a two year old on one the biggest ranches in Nevada, cowboyed on and still is, SOUND. He is well into late teens and used in a regular rotation. Not only was he started as a two year old, rode hard, but he is poorly conformed and crooked legged.


And this horse...He is the highest earning horse in NRCHA history and he is still showing into his teens.
Olena Oak


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## GoldenPony (May 30, 2014)

There are so many factors that go into horses breaking down early I don't think you can pin it down completely, but one thing I wonder is why it seems that nearly every bigtime reiner is tall and chubby. Same with the big lick TWH riders. Big burly men on horses that should not be carrying them.


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## Comfortably Numb (Jul 16, 2013)

It is called "probability". One can find a thousand excuses why it is OK to start a horse at 2. Of course one can.

Riding a horse at 2 is not particularly good for the long-term well-being of that particular horse - at least on a relative basis. If one could make a 100% exact replica of a newborn horse and one of them is started at 2, while the other at 5, the latter will "probably" fair better healthwise all other things constant.

Anecdotal evidence will always be there to provide comfort for people who do not have a reasonably good understanding of Statistics - "this one horse did this and have you heard about that other one that did/achieved that"... C'est la vie.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Years ago when before machinery, horses were broke out at 2yr olds then turned out for another two years. Cowboys had little spare time to work with a colt that is why they were rode to a stand still then ridden around for a few minutes before being turned out to grow another two years. When caught up and put to work, these colts were still half wild and could offer a wild ride on a frosty morning.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

We've been through this "rodeo" before. Horses were meant to be used. Horses can be broken down early. Much has to do with good or bad build. A lot has to do with HOW they are used, and, if injured, HOW they are healed.
Look at the human athletes that compete in their teens. Some of their injuries don't matter, and some create early arthritis.
I think one factor is also preparing for success, or preparing for failure. If you don't get horse in really good physical shape by schooling and developing their bodies regularly, then you pursue your horse sport, he's gonna pull muscles and get bone splints.
Bones need pounding for good bone density, like lots of trotting. Different muscle groups fully develop at different rates. Cardiovascular building is also gradual, but I believe that the horse has a cardiovascular system that can multiply 25x more than the horsey coach potato has. 'O'
Let's face it, going from no work to hard work suddenly can kill your horse. 
I think, regarding the weight ratio of rider to horse, it's just common sense. If you think you are too big for your horse, you probably are. Fortunately that "too big" is a problem that you can solve.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Are we here to argue about starting horses young or are we here to talk about big guys riding little horses? 

Back on topic - Lots of 14hh and under horses are cutters and reiners, or cowhorses, and are ridden by bigger, taller guys. These are powerful and strong animals. I rode a lot of them working at my previous job at the ranch. Had some young colts who worked just as well for the 110lbs that is myself as they did for the 200+ lbs that was our other ranch hand.

Have a look at some of these horses. I guarantee none of them are big, but they are ridden by the best in the world and win.

Shawn Flarida










Dell Hendricks










Tom McCutcheon next to Gunners Special Nite










As for cutters, most of these guys can drag their feet on the ground.










These horses are built stronger and more athletic than you can imagine. Trust me, they can handle these big guys.


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## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

DIYHorsemanship said:


> I know the whole horse/rider ratio weight thing, and size of the horses bones and stuff.
> 
> But where do reiners and cutters draw the line for whats to small and what isn't?
> Is it acceptable for a 6ft rider to ride a 14 hand horse or would they get laughed out the show pen? Not my height just wondering.
> ...


I've always wondered the same thing. We had a guy at the last boarding place that is 6'2 and big built guy and he rides his cutting horse who is only 14h. To me it looks ridiculous, but I guess thats the "norm" for those guys. One more reason I love my Canadians, anyone can get on and be fine because are so big boned.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

^I know this is not true for all Organizations--it's probably not even true for most. I also don't know how prevalent it is in the Western world, due to different sizes of horses, but....
I know the association I competed in had an age limit. You had to be under 18 to compete on a pony.


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