# Balking at Everything!



## MarylinMonroe (May 27, 2015)

I recently purchased my first horse in early March, a 14hh Haflinger mare, Marylin. My trainer originally owned her and said she never spooked, bucked, kicked out, bolted, etc. when she had her. She then sold her to a therapy barn, and a couple years later the therapy barn sold her to us. Marylin did great. She did test me a bit with a refusal or two, and a bucking fit that I did win. In the past few weeks, she has been balking at things she has been by hundreds of times both directions with and without a rider. The corner of the arena, the spot where the door to the arena and lounge meets up with the barn door, The corner by the outdoor arena, everything. Even when I get off and lead her past the area a few times and get back on, even when my mom lads her, once she's on her own she stops. She stops and throws her head up, sometimes pins her ears, and backs up. Fast. In the arena, she has a tendency to go very fast and be hard to stop. Now I have to carry a crop with me in case she balks, which makes her start jigging at the walk. When I leave the arena and have to even barely touch her with the crop, she either spins, backs up, or tries to bolt. She lurches forward, and I have to be able to react quickly to get both hands on the reins. She has spooked and run off before, but only in the outdoor arena with the gate closed. I really don't want her to do that if I have to use the crop on her outside of the arena. What should I do?


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

You need help.
Of course, I will put in the usual disclaimer or ruling out pain, first, but it sounds like she has become completely spoiled
She tested you, and while you say you 'won;, obviously your winning wasn't clear enough, constant enough, and she has gradually become more blatant in her rebellions
Every time you got off to lead her by the arena, or had your mom lead her, she won a small victory, and learned that she could intimidate you, and make you get off, rather than force her to listen and go where asked to.
Horses learn each and every time that we ride or handle them, for the positive or the negative
Have your trainer, who owned her, get on her and ride her. The when she has that horse listening again, have her give you some lessons
She has also moved up to the next level in balking-running backwards
You either have to have someone ride this horse that can get her respect back, or sell her, as her behavior will only get worse, with the direction you are now heading in.
This horse has your number big time. FIrst, get help
I don't know if this horse has been ridden with spurs , and you probably are not experienced with riding with spurs correctly, but maybe some tools to put into that tool box of yours, for the future
Spurs allow you to keep your rein hands and entire body in the correct position, sot hat you can, providing the horse has any body control on him, take head away, dis engage hips, ect
Horses ridden correctly with spurs (ie, you only use them as back up to non compliance to leg aids, and have an independent seat,so you don't touch the horse with them, unless intended, do not get upset with you riding with spurs, as they might, when you carry a crop, if you ride with the correctly.
I posted the Larry trocha Video on spooking, different types of spooks, and it shows you how you have to ride a horse through stuff, taking their head away, getting after them if they are jsut using spooking, as your horse is-ect
This horse has to be ridden by someone with the skill to ride her as in that video, and you don't have the experience to do so, by anything you have psoted. This is not being harsh, just afact-get help, the horse has become seriously spoiled and will only become more dangerous.


----------



## ducky123 (May 27, 2014)

Since it takes a long time for my bones to mend, I wouldn't be riding her outside the arena until I had confidence in my control of the horse inside the arena first.

Is there a place in the arena where your horse will consistently act up? If so, we go close enough to that spot where the horse knows of it's existence but far enough away that horse keeps his sanity.

Now we start working either under saddle or on the ground. Get horse moving and changing directions (all four directions). Watch ears. They tell you if horse is paying attention to scary thing (move horse now!) or attention is on you (relax a little).

Don't try for very much especially the first session (and it will take a lot of time to fix this). Even a tiny improvement does wonders for confidence of both horse and rider.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

ducky123 said:


> Since it takes a long time for my bones to mend, I wouldn't be riding her outside the arena until I had confidence in my control of the horse inside the arena first.
> 
> Is there a place in the arena where your horse will consistently act up? If so, we go close enough to that spot where the horse knows of it's existence but far enough away that horse keeps his sanity.
> 
> ...



I don't agree that you are going to fix this horse on the ground, nor by catering to her 'pretend' frights', as this horse clearly has learned to use spooking to get out of work and intimidate her rider
She is not a green horse that lacks confidence, but an older horse that has learned to use spooking and balking, getting worse not better with time.
SPOILED, in capital letters for a reason, and the only way you fix this type of spooking and balking, is by having someone ride this horse, with the ability to make her go forward, ride her past stuff she is using as an excuse, prevent her from ever trying to run backwards, spin or bolt, and in fact, making such attempts 'uncomfortable'


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I agree with Smilie that this mare has your number and needs to be 'sorted' by a more experienced rider.

If you carry on riding her then you need to be able to turn her back against the way she spooked and circle her round and round in a tight circle as close to the spooky area as you can. Not at a walk but at a trot. Keep your inside rein short and her head turned well around. 

If she runs back she needs a whack and if she tries to take off with you haul on the outside rein so she smacks her nose on the rails. 

It might not be elegant but it has to be effective, once she realises you mean business then she will be more compliant to ride.


----------



## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

MarylinMonroe said:


> My trainer originally owned her and said she never spooked, bucked, kicked out, bolted, etc. when she had her. She then sold her to a therapy barn, and a couple years later the therapy barn sold her to us. Marylin did great.
> 
> She did test me a bit with a refusal or two, and a bucking fit that I did win.


So this horse used to be fine and is now having issues?

I'll try to say this in the gentlest way possible, but the horse hasn't changed. But the person who is RIDING the horse has changed. 

Every horse is different. For some of them, if they can take advantage of a rider, they will. Or, if they don't have a confident rider, they won't be confident. 

Unfortunately, your horse's behavior is the result of how your are riding and handling her. 

Are you still in contact with your trainer? I would strongly advise you to take lessons from your trainer with this horse. Learn how and how not to handle the horse. 

For the balking, I would suspect you are not confident about certain things and your horse is picking up on that. You need to think confident and do NOT expect your horse to balk. If you think about your horse balking, your body language is going to reflect that inadvertantly. 

For the speed issue and her not stopping, I would suspect your timing is wrong with your hands. If you are on her mouth too much, a horse will learn to ignore your hands. Or if you don't release pressure at the right time, the same thing will happen. This is where your trainer is going to come into play to help you learn proper timing with your hands, so you can re-train her to soften her mouth again and listen to you. 

Either way, you do need to seek some help before the problem gets worse. If you don't change your riding/handling habits, the problems won't go away.


----------



## ducky123 (May 27, 2014)

Smilie said:


> this type of spooking and balking, is by having someone ride this horse, with the ability to make her go forward, ride her past stuff she is using as an excuse,
> prevent her from ever trying to run backwards, spin or bolt, and in fact, making such attempts 'uncomfortable'


I thought that's exactly what I said. The horse isn't being made comfortable by moving around, it's just the opposite. 

Yep, our goal is to get the horse to go in the direction specified by the human. It's obvious that the rider is incapable of dealing with a big confrontation with the horse so a big confrontation will lead to failure. I like to work where I have some chance at immediate success, something to build on. 

It's nice to say that we need a better rider or we should get a trainer or any other form of "let somebody else do it". But if I'm doing it myself, I'm going to stay in a zone where I'm sure my horse is under control. I'm not going to put myself in a zone with a known bolter where my bones are at risk. That's just not going to happen.

So let me make it more clear. If the horse isn't paying attention to you (again, ears are a great clue), make the horse uncomfortable by getting movement and direction changes. If he is paying attention to you, you make the horse's life more comfortable by reducing or stopping the pressure to move. I know it works. I know it works especially well with new and confidence-lacking riders. It really won't take that long for the horse to prefer standing right next to the scary object over any other spot.

That said, the fastest and safest results would come from getting a trainer and then let somebody else do it.


----------



## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Has she had her eyes checked?


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

you have a trainer helping you now?


----------



## evilc123 (Jul 17, 2012)

beau159 said:


> So this horse used to be fine and is now having issues?
> 
> I'll try to say this in the gentlest way possible, but the horse hasn't changed. But the person who is RIDING the horse has changed.


 It sounds like there was a change: she brought the horse to a new barn (I think?). Anyway, it is possible that the move, as well as changing weather (if that is a consideration in your climate) has resulted in ulcers. Behavior issues can be a sign of ulcers, and they manifest differently for different horses. You may consider having the horse scoped just to rule that out before really pushing her.


----------



## Joel Reiter (Feb 9, 2015)

Smilie said:


> I don't agree that you are going to fix this horse on the ground


Well, fix is a pretty big word, and I fear to take exception with Smilie, because most of the time I post early and then when I see what Smilie wrote I feel like posting again with something like, "yeah, that's what I was trying to say."

However, I have seen great improvement in a spooky horse from doing groundwork, and for people who ride like me and not like Smilie, that's a safer option. When you reach the point where you can ask your horse to move forward, backward, left and right from the ground, and the answer is always "YES SIR!", you will have less problems in the saddle.

Spooking is a vicious circle, because spooky horses make spooky riders and spooky riders make spooky horses. Spooky riders start getting tense every time they come to something that might spook the horse, and the horse picks it up. Spooky riders keep shortening the reins until the horse gets mad, which makes the rider even more nervous.

So yes, eventually you will need to have enough confidence to ride out without that knot in your stomach, but ground work can get you part way there.


----------



## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

This horse isn't spooking in the real sense. It's using it to it's advantage. If you are petting her and talking to her in soothing tones when she does this, you must stop as she may see it as reward. I want you to change your attitude (not an insult) to a more aggressive one. Walk tall with confidence (think soldier). Everything you do must be "matter of fact", no lovies. Tell the horse that she's going to go into that corner this time if she knows what's good for her. What you are telling her means nothing to her but it affects your confidence in a positive way. Don't look at the corner but the next corner as you are four or five strides away from the first corner. I suspect you are getting nervous as she approaches and she'd picking up on this. This is why you must ignore it. Work the far end of the arena so she can't find excuses to bolt for the doorway. If there's a door or gate, keep it closed. Keep the first few sessions to the walk and do lots of tight circles both ways, like 10' circles and figure eights. This is to keep her attention on you. When you feel her relax only then can she walk a straight line but only for a few strides then back to the circles.


----------



## MarylinMonroe (May 27, 2015)

Smilie said:


> I don't know if this horse has been ridden with spurs , and you probably are not experienced with riding with spurs correctly, but maybe some tools to put into that tool box of yours, for the future
> Spurs allow you to keep your rein hands and entire body in the correct position, sot hat you can, providing the horse has any body control on him, take head away, dis engage hips, ect
> Horses ridden correctly with spurs (ie, you only use them as back up to non compliance to leg aids, and have an independent seat,so you don't touch the horse with them, unless intended, do not get upset with you riding with spurs, as they might, when you carry a crop, if you ride with the correctly.


I have been riding for 8 years; the only reason we hadn't bought a horse sooner was because of money. I do have experience with spurs and have ridden a couple horses who needed them. I actually have the spurs stored away somewhere.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

evilc123 said:


> It sounds like there was a change: she brought the horse to a new barn (I think?). Anyway, it is possible that the move, as well as changing weather (if that is a consideration in your climate) has resulted in ulcers. Behavior issues can be a sign of ulcers, and they manifest differently for different horses. You may consider having the horse scoped just to rule that out before really pushing her.


Ducky, I was addressing as to what kind of spooker this horse was, and she is in the class of spooking because she has learned to use that against her rider
THat is not the same is a horse that is green, truly insecure, maybe even low in something like Magnesium, but a horse that was solid when sold by that trainer at least, and we really don't know as to how she was ridden in that theraputic riding
She follows into that class of horses that have become habitual spookers, and you have to make spooking , balking, have consequences
The OP has gotten off, when this horse acted spooky, had mom lead her etc- sorry but that shows ahorse that has become spoiled, and merely getting such ahorse up to objects, trying to build their cfonfidence, really does not apply in the case of a spoiled horse, that has learned she can balk, try to bolt, spin and run backwards
Such a horse needs to be ridden and made to get off a leg, going where asked, hard enough to get the message across as to who is leading who.

In the following video, Larry goes into the differnt kinds of spooks, and this horse falls into the habitual spooker class. Watch the last part of this video in particular

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qt7QnI0DMM4

You are doing what works for you and your horse, who most likley is not the same as this horse-a horse that used to ride fine, and now spooks and balks

Won't hurt to check eyesight, but reading as to how the OP has responded to this horse's increasing disrespect, plus the other vises beyond just spooking, has me seeing a 'smart horse that has tested the rider and decided that leadership was lacking
Since the horse changed, since OP has been riding it, makes sense that she needs a trainer, as she now has not a spooky horse per say, but a horse that has learned to use spooking to her advantage-two very different situations that require custom fix.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Changing weather , new barn, not an excuse-sorry. I would never have been able to sell horses long distance, have them hauled to new owner with that owner being very satisfied. I could not get ahorse shown, taken on new trails etc.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Joel Reiter said:


> Well, fix is a pretty big word, and I fear to take exception with Smilie, because most of the time I post early and then when I see what Smilie wrote I feel like posting again with something like, "yeah, that's what I was trying to say."
> 
> However, I have seen great improvement in a spooky horse from doing groundwork, and for people who ride like me and not like Smilie, that's a safer option. When you reach the point where you can ask your horse to move forward, backward, left and right from the ground, and the answer is always "YES SIR!", you will have less problems in the saddle.
> 
> ...


 Yes, Joel, sorry, I did not mean to apply what I said , using abroad brush to paint all cases of spooking as the same, thus same advise for all, but this horse has learned to use spooking to intimidate her rider.
Certainly some ground work won't hurt, far as making that horse obey forward, and maybe making her softer in the poll, but if you read through this post,and another one I believe , by the OP, you see a horse that has been rewarded for balking,acting spooky, with the rider getting off
From the other post, i get that the horse would only balk at one certain spot, but now has broadened her attempts at intimidating the rider, and has been rewarded with the rider getting off
This is a horse, that according to original trainer was fine, so you have to consider that this horse became this way through in effectual riding, thus only some one actually pushing a horse like this through stuff, under saddle is going to truly help
Even then, such a horse will always tend to test each rider, so the Op will need to take lessons, so the horse does not revert , after a trainer works with this horse
If this was just a green horse, a horse that lacks experience, ect, I would agree with you 100%


----------



## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

Horse is running the show. And would imagine it has been for a while too, but only getting to be a problem now.

This is, to me, a case where you need someone training you, not the horse, as your handling/riding are the problem, and even if you trade this horse off?

Your next horse and the next and the next, will all do a variation of what you are seeing.

This horse is spoiled.


----------



## MarylinMonroe (May 27, 2015)

Smilie said:


> You need help.
> Every time you got off to lead her by the arena, or had your mom lead her, she won a small victory, and learned that she could intimidate you, and make you get off, rather than force her to listen and go where asked to.
> Horses learn each and every time that we ride or handle them, for the positive or the negative


When I get off and lead her or have my mom lead her, I take her past the problem area a few times. Then I turn her right back around and make her go independently.


----------



## MarylinMonroe (May 27, 2015)

The problem is...
I have had other people ride her. My trainer, working students (very experienced riders), even a couple riders with their skill level way below mine. And every time, I hear the exact same thing from my trainer: "She did great". There was one rider who hated her because she was going too fast, but it was only because she wasn't taking control. Other than that, she has done perfectly with every other rider.


----------



## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

MarylinMonroe said:


> The problem is...
> I have had other people ride her. My trainer, working students (very experienced riders), even a couple riders with their skill level way below mine. And every time, I hear the exact same thing from my trainer: "She did great". There was one rider who hated her because she was going too fast, but it was only because she wasn't taking control. Other than that, she has done perfectly with every other rider.


So what was different? Were the other riders smaller than you? Were they under a closer supervision of the trainer? Asking less, maybe?

I keep hearing she's "spoiled"; "she has your number"; "they'll always test you" --- golly, sounds like horses are forever at war with us humans! When what we usually see, in fact, is a partnership. Horses would RATHER go along with us than not. Why doesn't she want to go with YOU?

I agree with doing some groundwork, if only to get to know your horse better. WHY on earth does she suddenly balk? Horses would, in general, much rather walk along--- it's really much easier. So something is truly bothering her, and I don't think it's because she's scared or that she "has your number" --- though for sure she feels confident you are ineffective to do much about it --- but WHY doesn't she want to walk out? It should be fun, or at least, relaxing and interesting.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

the problem with proscribing ground work for a situation where the rider's lack of firmness and clarity in the saddle is the root of the issue, is that the same person will be doing the groundwork, and very likely the same sort of communication will be present. this will only serve to reinforce the horse's perception of the rider.

groundwork in and of itself is not helpful (indeed, it is detrimental) if done poorly.
a rider who does not know how to do groundwork, yet tries and is basically thrashing around, maybe backing up or pulling the horse into their space, will only reinforce the horses ideas, and actually irritate it even more.


if the person DOES know how to work the horse for respect on the ground, then I would agree that it can help set up a new dynamic between hrose and rider.

horses are experts at 'sessing' out a person for how believeable is there authority. it does not matter the number of years of experience a rider has. it's the "cred" that you have. some folks are practically born with it, others have to learn to "fake it 'til you make it". that's where watching videos comes in.


----------



## Joel Reiter (Feb 9, 2015)

That's an excellent point, tinyliny. Bad groundwork is worse than none. Good groundwork will cause a horse to give up his union card.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Joel Reiter said:


> That's an excellent point, tinyliny. Bad groundwork is worse than none. Good groundwork will cause a horse to give up his union card.


 Maybe.
Many horse will lead, where they won't ride, as this horse does. Mom can lead horse by trouble spot, but OP can't ride the horse past it
There certainly is the lunging for respect, as per CA, BUt in the end, I found you need to ride where you can, put that body control on a horse, and then don't ride where you cannot, until you have the tools to do so, successfully
In other words, if you know that half a mile beyond the end of your drive way, is the point where the horse will challenge you, don't try to ride beyond there, until you are sure you can, either with increased riding confidence, body control, or both
The horse does not know how far you intended to ride, just who made that decision. It has to be you.
The OP can most likely lunge this horse until the cows come home, but besides taking off some edge, it won't translate into obedience under saddle, on a horse that is not green, but spoiled


----------



## equitate (Dec 14, 2012)

Horses (esp mares) are either the ones who protect the herd, or allow another to do so. Also they have occular vision, and cannot see straight ahead. So if they change their field of vision things appear to jump. The rider has to keep the horse 'in position' looking slightly away from whatever they appear to worry about, and touch with the bat on the shoulder BEFORE they starts to reaction. If they start to back up, ask them to back up more. Using leg on a horse AFTER the fact teaches nothing, and if the rider grabs/holds when the horse does go forward defeats the purpose. W/o vid what is causing the problems is up for grabs, like the horse is too low/too compressed. Work in hand may help (not lunging per se), but likely the answer is in the reactions to the rider/their timing/etc.

So are you being taught what to do differently? What do you do when you mount? Why? (We need much more info). I would bet if someone tries to put their hand under your lower leg that it will be pinched, and that you would be holding very stiffly with the hand. Relax your entire body, ride routine circles in walk. Put the horse onto the aids, pulse the aids. Look away from whatever the horse is seeing, and make them look away. When the horse lifts its head, lift your hands, position the horse laterally, do nothing else (likely the horse is doing this do to clamped legs however). Only use the leg after the horse starts to move. If it backs up, back up more (although likely your tension is actually causing it in the first place). We need more info or a pix.


----------



## equitate (Dec 14, 2012)

Since the horse goes for others, the question to ask is what you do differently. Touch the horse on the shoulder with the bat (keep it focused), use the leg after the horse is going. Relax the lower half of your body, position and allow the horse to move. It is not the horse has your number or is seeking to evade. It is somehow overwhelmed by your actions and is actually trying to protect you. Imho the teacher should stand in the middle of a circle, make sure you learn how to time aids, position the horse, allow movement, etc. Right now your use of the leg=stop (perhaps because the hands are low/fixed/etc (we don't know), so it is reeducating your body and your effect on the horse.


----------



## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Some more related links with ideas that might help. They are on general spooking - which I think isn't actually what the OP is experiencing here - but the observations on bits, riders, and riding proactively in a spook may help:

Spooking and bits:

Which bit to use?

We also recently discussed spooking and tactics for prevention and management here (link is to the starting post and discussion goes over the page):

Branded/Brandy , . Final name "Bandit"! .Mia's replacement

...because there is a lot more to it than just bits, of course! :smile:


----------



## MarylinMonroe (May 27, 2015)

I use a loose ring oval link snaffle. A plain caveson noseband, a standing martingale, a leather girth with a fleece cover. And she has barely any withers so the saddle couldn't be pinching there.
Almost ALL of you are saying it's my fault! I do exactly what my trainer tells me to do when she balks, I make sure to exercise her for a bit before I ride her in the problem areas, and I praise her when she goes by the problem area. If she balks, I either use my crop, or lead her or have someone lead her past the scary place a few times, and then make her go past the area alone. I don't spoil her. I don't let her win her battles. I do everything I have been taught to do when she balks. She's not balking in the arena anymore. Except for one incident outside yesterday when a couple rabbits were running in the corner of the arena. I've asked several people who personally KNOW my pony and say don't even try spurs on her. I really don't think posting this question helped at all.


----------



## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Just because your horse has low wither doesn't mean she mightn't have a saddle fit issue affecting her comfort.

The gear you are using on and associated with your bridle may not be helpful, even if some people think it is.

Your trainer and I have some significant differences in how we'd approach spooking. Second opinions can be helpful and I for one linked to you some alternative approaches.

And the rider is almost always a significant part in a problem equation. This is also true for very experienced riders, so don't take it to heart.

Best wishes!


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Good luck, but you have written before ,t hat you were afraid to use a crop on her, as she already is 'reactive', that you get off, that she has tried to bolt, that she has run backwards, that she has spun on you, and those are all signs of ahrosew that has your number, thus become spoiled
Spoiled does not mean that you baby her, don't try to get her respect, but rather she is ahorse that has learned to test a rider, and is the opposite of a horse with a good work ethic
In an original post, she was only refusing to go by one certain part of the arena, and your mom would have to lead her past.
Now, she 'spooks at everything'. Whether you realize it or not, she has won her small victories, and has now taken the proverbial mile, and will get worse, if not corrected, and that means someone able to ride her past whatever she is using as a spook /balk excuse, and making those refusals uncomfortable
Some very experienced horse people here have told you what needs to be done, whteher you wish to hear that or not


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Get rid of that standing martingale, until you 'fix' her


----------



## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Smilie said:


> Good luck, but you have written before ,t hat you were afraid to use a crop on her, as she already is 'reactive', that you get off, that she has tried to bolt, that she has run backwards, that she has spun on you, and those are all signs of ahrosew that has your number, thus become spoiled
> Spoiled does not mean that you baby her, don't try to get her respect, but rather she is ahorse that has learned to test a rider, and is the opposite of a horse with a good work ethic.


I disagree most heartily with that take on horse psychology and horse training. When horses aren't doing the things we want, it's usually because humans are giving them cues they don't understand (because different to the last person etc or because not yet actually taught to associate the cue with the desired action), or because the horses have been traumatised by unpleasant and painful experiences, or because horses have present issues with ill-fitting tack, unbalanced riders, back or mouth or other injuries, or living conditions that drive them bonkers. That would constitute >90% of reasons things don't work out, in our experience - and we've rehabilitated a long line of "problem" horses over the past three and a half decades which the self-styled "experts" had decided were past redemption - most probably because they subscribed to lines of thinking similar to the above.

:evil:


----------



## MarylinMonroe (May 27, 2015)

Smilie said:


> Get rid of that standing martingale, until you 'fix' her


She throws her head. Everywhere. She almost knocked me in the head once.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

SueC said:


> I disagree most heartily with that take on horse psychology and horse training. When horses aren't doing the things we want, it's usually because humans are giving them cues they don't understand (because different to the last person etc or because not yet actually taught to associate the cue with the desired action), or because the horses have been traumatised by unpleasant and painful experiences, or because horses have present issues with ill-fitting tack, unbalanced riders, back or mouth or other injuries, or living conditions that drive them bonkers. That would constitute >90% of reasons things don't work out, in our experience - and we've rehabilitated a long line of "problem" horses over the past three and a half decades which the self-styled "experts" had decided were past redemption - most probably because they subscribed to lines of thinking similar to the above.
> 
> :evil:


Gee, Susie, maybe talk to Cheri, as she has dealt with many problem horses, and sees the same thing I do-a spoiled horse that has the rider's number
I guess we all are 'so called experts, next to your un questionable wisdom and experience!
Yes, pain should always be ruled out, but there are horses that become spoiled, simply because they are allowed to become so.
Horses can become un trained as well as trained.
There are horses that learn to use spooking to their advantage,are they are rewarded by that rider
So, in your little realm of thinking, there are no true barn sour horses, Horses that bolt, just because they can, etc, ect.
Your so-called expertise somehow falls short in reailty checks, when it comes to someone like Cheri and others, that has actually, 'walked the talk', and dealt with many horses , that through in proper handling and riding, had become dangerous and spoiled.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

MarylinMonroe said:


> ...Almost ALL of you are saying it's my fault! I do exactly what my trainer tells me to do when she balks... I really don't think posting this question helped at all.


Trying to troubleshoot a horse is tough enough when watching the horse. Doing it off a few paragraphs on a website is tougher still.

Here is a possibility: You are doing the right things, but doing them with the wrong timing. Or you could be doing the right things with your hands while doing the wrong things with your legs.

A video would help a lot. 

"She throws her head. Everywhere. She almost knocked me in the head once."

When does she throw her head, and what do you do? With a video, someone might notice the head throwing comes during a certain part of the trot, or that you are doing the right reaction but about a second too late for it to have effect.

I once tried to take lunge line lessons. I did them on the trainer's super reliable horse. Part way thru, the horse started bucking for no good reason. Since it happened several times in a row, we stopped.

Turned out I was the last person to ever ride the horse. A bone in the leg had been deteriorating, and apparently broke off during the ride. The horse was so stoic and so reliable that it took a broken bone (that would not heal and led to her being put down) to get her to buck under a student.

The trainer had her for over 25 years. Even she couldn't figure out why her super reliable horse started bucking...but having known her history for over 2 decades, she knew it had to be something important. Hence the vet visit and X-rays.

My point is only to emphasize how hard it can be to trouble shoot a particular behavior. If you trust your trainer, you may need to rely on what the person on the ground watching you says. But if you could post a video, it might help. Good luck either way. Discussions sometimes feel very personal, but folks are trying to help.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Smilie said:


> ...Your so-called expertise somehow falls short in reailty checks, when it comes to someone like Cheri and others, that has actually, 'walked the talk', and dealt with many horses , that through in proper handling and riding, had become dangerous and spoiled.


SueC has had ample experience with horses. From what I've seen - and I'm sure my experience doesn't count since it is measured in years instead of decades - humans attribute motives to a horse that the horse doesn't possess. Horses don't connect things thru longer period of times, and words like "spoiled" attribute motives they lack.

Horses who get something they want from a behavior we don't want are doing so because it profits them - they get a result that justifies, to them, their investment in the behavior. Telling someone "You've spoiled your horse" doesn't help because the OP is not trying to indulge her horse's behavior. She simply hasn't found in what sense the horse is profiting from the behavior, or what she is doing that makes it profitable.

It could be the horse simply isn't a good match for this rider. Been there, done that, got the bruises. It may require either selling the horse or not riding the horse until the rider has better skills.

Sometimes tack can help. When I had difficulties staying on my horse thru some spins, I got an Australian style saddle. I stayed on thru a number of spins then and got rather comfortable with it - enough so that I could concentrate on getting my horse to face the scary thing (in her case her fears were genuine, but they are not with all horses) and not worry about coming off.

And there came a point where I stopped riding my horse for 8 months, took lessons on other people's horses, practiced on another horse of mine, and then hired a trainer to train the problem horse. Had anyone with experience wanted her, I'd have been better off to sell her. Sometimes the best answer for a newer rider is to stop riding horse X until you get better at Y & Z.

But spoiled is a word I'd reserve for those who want to ride their horsie via Black Stallion style bonding and loves. The OP is looking for an answer. Getting tougher, if it is applied with the wrong timing, won't help. The biggest problem I've had is timing - and as someone who hasn't spent 40 years riding everything that has ever lived, I sometimes understand where the newer rider is coming from better than the person who was born on a horse. The right answer applied about a second late can be the wrong answer. But of course, my riding time is in single digit years so it may not count for much...:evil:


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

SueC said:


> I disagree most heartily with that take on horse psychology and horse training. When horses aren't doing the things we want, it's usually because humans are giving them cues they don't understand (because different to the last person etc or because not yet actually taught to associate the cue with the desired action), or because the horses have been traumatised by unpleasant and painful experiences, or because horses have present issues with ill-fitting tack, unbalanced riders, back or mouth or other injuries, or living conditions that drive them bonkers. That would constitute >90% of reasons things don't work out, in our experience - and we've rehabilitated a long line of "problem" horses over the past three and a half decades which the self-styled "experts" had decided were past redemption - most probably because they subscribed to lines of thinking similar to the above.
> 
> :evil:


Cannot say that I agree with this either. 

Ponies are good at assessing what they can and cannot get away with amd taking advantage of this. 

One girl arrived at my place with a 12.2 pony that was so nappy he wouldn't even lead to the field if he was in his own. I well remember it taking two of us nearly and hour to get him to do so one day. 

He had no choice but to improve. 

The rider entered a small dressage class in the indoor arena. I was doing other things and as I arrived back one of the children rushed up and said he was in the arena and wouldn't do a thing. I ran over just as the door was opened and pony came happily trotting out having refused to move once in there on his own. Child in tears. 
That pony stopped dead when he saw me. Turned around and went back in. The judge let her start again and I stood in a corner. That pony did the dressage test as if he was an angel. 

The girl grew stronger and was able to do anything with him. There was no pain issue, no not having clear aids or any other factor to him misbehaving other than he knew what he could get away with.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

^^ In the above case, saying the pony was spoiled would put in a value judgment that doesn't reflect what the pony was doing. And if the girl wasn't strong enough (or balanced enough or any other reason enough) to rob the pony of the fun of standing relaxed, then she wasn't spoiling him. She simply wasn't strong enough, balanced enough, was using the wrong tack for that pony, etc.

Or she may have been doing the right thing but with the wrong timing. Sometimes you need to anticipate in order to be ready to apply a negative consequence IMMEDIATELY. Doing it 10 seconds later not only would be too late, but could have the opposite effect of what you intended.

For example, our pony Cowboy was a lesson horse. [If the main instructor was not around and] he wasn't behaving right, they would stop him, unsaddle him, take him to the round pen and then use a whip to run him ragged. So he was rewarded for misbehaving, and then a human would take him to a place and punish him harshly for no reason at all - because Cowboy saw no connection to his behavior 5-10 minutes earlier and the harsh treatment. I've owned him for 2.5 years, and in his heart he still worries that humans will turn on him for no good reason.

I would add to SueC's list that horses are often trained to misbehave by bad timing or by not understanding what they consider a reward. And I have watched horses behave toward each other in a manner that sure seems like spite or hate. But for human-horse interactions, I think we get better results from both horse and rider if we avoid words involving morality and stick to things like:

What does the horse get out of it, and for how long?

Does he understand the cue? Lots of folks seem to think horses are born knowing what a cue means. I've read books where the author says something like 'all horses naturally understand to do X when your balance changes by Y' - and I'm not buying it. If you want to use a cue, teach it!

Are you consistent in cues? Are they distinct to the horse and do they mean one thing? Do your hands say one thing and your legs another? 

If you are using pressure and release, like most do, does the horse view your idea of pressure the same way you do, and view your release as a release?

Has the horse picked up a habit from a previous rider that you need to break? 3 of the 5 horses I've owned came here walking off on mounting. Their previous riders accepted it. I did not, so I needed to teach them a new habit. But they were not being naughty and they were not testing me. They were just doing what they had been trained to do by their previous riders.

For the OP, here is something I became convinced of when I was taking lessons on lesson horses: Horses assess us long before we get on their backs. From the moment I approached a horse in a pen, the horse was assessing what it was getting into. How I approached him, haltered him, led him, cleaned his feet, saddled, etc all gave him a good idea what to expect before I ever got on his back. If I paid attention to the details and treated him like a living being during that stage, he was far more likely to work with me once my butt was in the saddle. I watched other students scrape out a hoof as if the hoof was made of steel, and then drop the foot with no regard for the horse's balance, and then wonder why the horse wasn't responsive when ridden.

A horse I owned for a couple of months when first starting taught me a good lesson. She was unbroken and young, and the plan (a poorly thought out plan) was to let her grow another year and have her trained. But just in leading her, she would get ****y. A Chris Irwin video that used to be available on Statelinetack showed me I was walking up, haltering her and trying to lead her in a way that a horse would view as rude. When I did it the way Chris Irwin said, she immediately turned into a 'nice horse'. Immediately as in, the very next time I walked up to her! We ended up giving her to a trainer a few months later, and she now is used for lessons. She's a good horse. But something as simple as how I walked up and put a halter on her could make a big difference in her attitude.

I'm not saying that is the problem here. But it might contribute. The lady I took lessons from said horses are vastly more aware of us than we are of them, and they respond in a way that they think will keep them safe - including taking charge at times.

But if that thought doesn't help, feel free to ignore it.


----------



## ZombieHorseChick (Jun 5, 2014)

For me, I've worked with a few different horses, personally 5 of them that I worked with, there problem was that they were "spoild" "stubborn" "to smart for their own good" call it what you want, they learned that if they did a certain thing, and got away with it, they could most likely do it again, and again, and again, it doesn't always mean the rider is doing something wrong, or having the wrong timing, or that the horse doesn't know what's being asked.( not all the time though, I'm being specific to my horses) My mare,OT, if I let her get away with ANYTHING, anything at all while we were just starting out, she would do it over and over till I learned how to correct it, she had a bad habit of bracing against the bit ( totally my fault, I'm quite a crappy self taught rider IMO) she figured out he could do that and go where ever she wanted, and for a little while I wasn't sure how to correct it. After pleanty of reading up and watching videos i pegged it down to I was keeping to tight of a rein. So I fixed it. In some cases the rider is doing things right, like the OP, if she is indeed doing what her trainer is telling her, it still may just not be enough, that comes down to respect in my opinion. If I were you I would work on plenty of ground work, get tht horse whooped into knowing who's boss ( not literally whipping, unless a pop is nessisary! Which it can be here and there) I know people will disagree with me and I with them but it all comes down to what works for what situation and that person. I truly don't think my way of doing things is the only right way, heck it may not be right for the OP but anything is worth a shot to keep a horse and rider safe, right? you just have to find what works for you specifically. And it does take time to figure it out sometimes, best of luck!


----------



## ZombieHorseChick (Jun 5, 2014)

MarylinMonroe said:


> I use a loose ring oval link snaffle. A plain caveson noseband, a standing martingale, a leather girth with a fleece cover. And she has barely any withers so the saddle couldn't be pinching there.
> Almost ALL of you are saying it's my fault! I do exactly what my trainer tells me to do when she balks, I make sure to exercise her for a bit before I ride her in the problem areas, and I praise her when she goes by the problem area. If she balks, I either use my crop, or lead her or have someone lead her past the scary place a few times, and then make her go past the area alone. I don't spoil her. I don't let her win her battles. I do everything I have been taught to do when she balks. She's not balking in the arena anymore. Except for one incident outside yesterday when a couple rabbits were running in the corner of the arena. I've asked several people who personally KNOW my pony and say don't even try spurs on her. I really don't think posting this question helped at all.




I, personally, wouldn't have someone lead the horse by the area if it isn't a actual spook, but if it is working for you then good for you  and the use of "spoil" can be touchy, depending on how you mean it, if I use "spoiled" I mean te horse has figure something out and keeps using it to it's advantage. Like my mare has done so so so many times in the past. I truly think no one is trying to upset, irritate or belittle you or your riding, I certainly am not and I really really apologies if I come off that way, words can be easily misunderstood when there is lack of body language and tone.


----------



## Joel Reiter (Feb 9, 2015)

Smilie said:


> I guess we all are 'so called experts, next to your un questionable wisdom and experience!
> 
> So, in your little realm of thinking...
> 
> Your so-called expertise


Smilie, you know I love you but this is not right. I went back and reread Suec's post, and honestly, I don't see what she said that triggered your inflammatory language.

From what I have read both of you know your way around horses. I'm chalking this one up to something else was irritating you when you wrote your post.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Yes, Joel, susie most likely hit a wrong note, which reflected the tone of my reply, as I consider myself a fair horse person, thus naturally rule out any pain issue or mis communication between horse and rider.
Having said that, a well trained horse with a good mind, does not spook at everything, try to bolt or spin, jsut because that rider is not experienced
I have put beginning to non riders on my horses, and while they won't work for those persons as they do for me, due to communication/riding skill, they will patiently and honestly pack those people, without resorting to the behavior this pony is using.
BSMS, I agree on all the factors you mention, far as a horse not performing /riidng well, and the word 'spoiled' applied to horses, is not the same as applying that word to kids, for instance, where the parents are over indulgent.
"Spoiled', applied to a horse, by horse people, means a horse that has developed some bad behavior, regardless if intentional or not, by the owner /rider, and includes the horse being un intentionally rewarded for the wrong behavior, and thsu the horse accidently recieves 'negative training'
Many examples exist, so I will just cite a few
-horse has some genuine scare spooks, where the rider gets off. Does not take as mart horse to make the association between spooking and getting out work 
Horse paws when tied, so owner unties him, or he paws , waiting to be fed, so owner quickly feed him to make him stop pawing
Horse starts to get barn sour, thus tries to balk and spin towards home, and owner is intimidated, thus allows the horse to turn back
These are all examples as to how a spoiled horse is produced, without any actual attempt to 'baby that horse
It is also true, that abused horses will naturally need careful re habilitation, as Susie mentioned, BUT it is also true that many spoiled horses were never abused. They were just rewarded for the wrong actions, and without any 'moral judgement' as to whether those actions were right or wrong, as the horse has no way of knowing that, only associates the action he committed, that was rewarded-intentional or not
We have numerous posts here, or horses being aggressive towards people, developing vises under saddle, and all of those horses were not abused
This horse is what is considered as a ;spoiled' horse, by horsemen, as that is any horse that balks, uses spooking to avoid work, tries to spin and bolt, and it is up to whoever is going to work with that horse, to decide why he has become spoiled, ruling out all issues like saddle fit, rider ability, or lack there of.
There are even some horses that truly belong in a dog food can looking out, as horses like people, can be simply born with a poor mind, and why many breeders select for mind and disposition, esp for amateur and youth horses
Some of the best bucking horses, were former saddle horses, that just decided they would rather buck
Horses are only as good as you expect them to be
Once again form Tom Dorrance, considered on eof the fathers of NH:
"be as gentle with a horse as possible, but also as firm as needed, to make that horse a'good citizen'. Many people get that first part, but completely ignore that second part, and you need to use both, to create that horse who is valued, because he is a' good citizen'


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

From someone else that deals with rescue horses, and defines what is meant by a spoiled horse:

When a horse is spoiled, the owner has rewarded the horse for evading, resisting, or refusing to perform the basic functions that are required to be a safe, reliable riding horse. Instead of giving the horse leadership and clarity in boundaries, the owner will default to what they believe to be more gentle and humane treatment. Thus they avoid any interaction in which the horse is corrected and redirected into more appropriate activity. Instead, imaginary emotions are attributed to the horse — and the owner responds to these pretend equine feelings (which prevents the misbehavior from even being perceived, let alone corrected). 



Here is the entire article:
Good Intentions and Cruelty to Horses - LOPE


----------



## Joel Reiter (Feb 9, 2015)

I see a lot of what seems to me to be misguided anthropomorphism on either extreme. On the one hand, a hear horse owners saying things like "he's head shy, so he must have been beaten," or "she's afraid of the trailer, so she must have had a bad experience." Well baloney! The horse is headshy or afraid of the trailer because it's a horse and it's sorry broke and nobody ever taught it that humans don't want to start eating horses by their ears and that trailers are not some sort of giant microwave for cooking horses.

I'm equally frustrated by people who think a horse is stupid because it doesn't know English and respond to whoa, even though the rider says whoa 200 times a ride when what she really means is "I'm scared."

Which brings us to horses that are "spoiled". Let's say this means the horse behaved well for a previous rider and is now exhibiting undesirable behavior for another rider. Is it safe to assume this horse understands what it is supposed to do and is deliberately and maliciously being disobedient because of laziness or some other character defect? Isn't is just as likely the horse was never thoroughly trained in the first place?

There might be a horse some place that is so clever and evil that it looks for overhanging branches to unseat its rider, but I've never seen it. What I've seen is riders who don't know what they're doing and horses who haven't been trained to respond to rein or leg cues.

Even if the horse actually was well trained at one point, and is now behaving badly, isn't it possible that the bad behavior is a result of confusion rather than malice?

Smilie, I'm not saying you're wrong. You might be exactly right about the OP's horse. And whether or not you are correct about this horse's motives, I'm sure you could fix it with the methods you describe. But I doubt you would need the crop much because you know what you're doing and the horse would understand what you want and probably be relieved to be getting some instructions that made sense.

I guess my point is that terms like "abused" and "spoiled" can have some extreme associations for a lot of horse people and we can expect some misunderstandings when we use that kind of language.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

You are right, there might be a communication problem in defining exactly what each of us means by spoiled, and I never denied that some horses actually have a reAson to have a certain phobias, having had a bad experience, but for each onE of those horses, as in the article I linked, there are many more horses where the term 'spoiled' applies to, because that horse has become that way, through unclear leadership and respect issues.
It is not the horse's fault, as they learn by association and repetition, either for the good or for the bad
I also do not recommend just beating that horse with a crop to make him go by those trouble spots
There would be many ground basics to check out-including dental issues, that make the horse toss her head to the extent of bonking the rider in the head, without that standing martingale
You would ride such a horse, away form those trouble spots, putting basic body control and response to legs on her
As has been said, 'the obstacle is not the obstacle'
For instance, unless a horse has had a bad trailer experience, a horse that does not load, really has a leading problem, questioning where he will or will not lead. 
Fix that away form the trialer, and not by getting after the horse at the trailer

A trail horse, that knows perfectly well how to sidepass off of a leg, while being asked to sidepass back up to a gate, so you can close it, instead , because the horse does not wish to go up to that gate,he sidepasses away from it, and into your leg
You do not get after him at that gate, as you do not want to cause a negative association with the gate. Instead, you realize what the true problem is.\

Take him away from that gate, and really make him move off that leg-then give him a chance to do the right thing, with light aids, at that gate
You would need to do the same thing with this horse, after all pain issues, of course have been eliminated.
Get him soft in his entire body, including the face. Get him responsive to your legs and other aids Then, and only then, when you have to tools to ride that horse by those spots, do you do so, and not by beating the horse, tying the head down and causing just an increased blanking out and resistance from he horse, by just trying to use force, without the basic tools of body control, softeness and respect for the legs as well as the bit
I never ride with a crop


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Years ago, when I started flying as a WSO (Weapon Systems Officer) in F-4s, I was told I needed to be "more aggressive". Since I've always had anger issues, telling me to be more aggressive was...confusing. Over time, I learned that it meant I should be more decisive, that I should have a plan to meet a goal and apply it with confidence rather than waiting to see what happens.

Jump forward about 30 years, and I was a new rider riding what turned out to be a very fearful horse - and one with minimal training. People told me she was being bad (or naughty), that she was spoiled and I needed to let her know who the boss was. Even if that meant hitting her really hard on the rump to get her to go forward. 

So I tried that. Took an eight foot long split rein, folded it over and had a heavy leather strap 4' long. When she balked - refused to go forward - I walloped her! Very hard, on the rump!

Mia being Mia, she didn't buck or rear - both of which could have happened. Instead, she threw it into reverse and we flew backwards. The harder I hit her, the faster we went - backwards. As we started to run out of trail, I decided I was going to get hurt very badly if I didn't try something else, so I stopping walloping and turned her 180 on a trail that was no more than 8' wide. Happily, she turned without falling, saw we were about to go into a lot of cactus, and stopped.

After things calmed down, I led her past the scary spot, a few steps at a time. And I learned that a horse who balks because she is genuinely afraid is NOT naughty, or stubborn, or bad. And I didn't need to be aggressive, or take charge. I wasn't spoiling her.

I'm sure most of the posters telling me to be more aggressive would have also said, "But not if she is genuinely terrified of what is ahead" - had they been there. Or they may have made the point that "being bad" is shorthand for "does not perform the desired motion", but doesn't mean she is maliciously rebelling. Or that "spoiled" didn't always mean "allowed to get away with something", but sometimes meant the horse had been TRAINED to perform the wrong response.

After 7 years with horses, I stay calmer and get better responses from my horses if I drop terms like "naughty" or "stubborn" or "bad" and simply assume a horse has a few natural reactions (startling at a sudden nearby motion) and a lot of trained ones, and most of the "bad" behavior I encounter is a learned response to how the horse has been trained - intentionally or not - by myself or by someone else.

If I think in terms of "This behavior will get you something you want" and "This behavior will NOT get you something you want", then I'm forced to accept I am training a horse every moment I am around him. It turns a battle into an analytical problem - WHY does he do X instead of Y. Maybe it is just my lifelong problem with controlling my temper, but I get better results if I analyze than if I fight...


----------



## mkmurphy81 (May 8, 2015)

It can be hard to tell the difference between a horse that is taking advantage of a rider ("spoiled") and one that is genuinely fearful, especially if we're trying to diagnose it over the internet. Mia is a perfect example of genuine fear. Bsms can diagnose that because he was actually there. A horse I used to own, Star, was a perfect example of one who would take any advantage she could get. I have an old picture somewhere of me at about age 10 riding her double bareback with a slip-noose halter made of braided hay strings. I could control her off of my voice and legs, and she was an angel. She did not have large holes in her training. If someone new (not beginner, just unknown to the horse) tried to ride her, she would bolt to see what she could get away with. She tested riders and only listened to the ones she respected. I could diagnose her because I was there to see it.

Which of these horses most resembles the OP's? It's hard to say without being there. If a trainer can ride her without problems, I lean towards spoiled/taking advantage. If the horse is nervous in the scary corner with the trainer, I lean towards genuine fear.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

^^ Cowboy is our 13 hand pony who was used as a lesson horse prior to coming here. His first ride, my DIL rode him. He bolted. Did lots of laps around the arena. She finally stopped him and got off. Asked me to get on him. I did, and we did 10-12 high speed laps before he realized he could either slow when requested or keep running until he died. 

He then tried 'bolting' again. Another 10-15 laps. Tried it a third time. Another 10 laps. Then he quit. Would W/T/C and stop with light pressure on the snaffle.

My DIL got on, knowing what to expect and that he would respond if she didn't give in. They did about 10 laps like this:








​ 
Then he realized she wasn't going to give up either, so he slowed when cued. A few minutes later, he was stopping on light pressure and it looked like this:








​ 
Notice my DIL's smile. That was what Cowboy needed to know - that 'bolting' wouldn't get him anything he wanted. That the riders at this new place would not back off and let him rest.

In the last 2.5 years, he hasn't 'bolted'.

DISCLAIMER: I prefer to reserve "bolting" for a horse running out of control due to fear. Cowboy was doing an imitation of a bolt. And yeah, he wanted to see if we would give him the release he got with student riders in a lesson...

Also: The place using him for lessons would respond by quitting, removing the tack, then taking him to the round pen and running him ragged. The quitting and getting the tack off is what he associated with his behavior. By the time they 'punished him' in the round pen, it was only teaching him people are mean and make ponies run around for no good reason. They thought they were being very firm with him, but in reality were teaching him two very bad lessons!


----------



## mkmurphy81 (May 8, 2015)

^^That's exactly how Star was. She was doing an imitation of a 'fear-bolt.' The trouble was, she would have enjoyed 10-15 laps of running!

It's very possible that the OP's horse is doing an imitation of a fear-spook for the same reason Cowboy and Star did imitations of fear-bolting.

*I sometimes use the word bolt to refer to running without the rider's permission even when it's not fear related because I can't think of a better word.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Joel Reiter said:


> There might be a horse some place that is so clever and evil that it looks for overhanging branches to unseat its rider, but I've never seen it. What I've seen is riders who don't know what they're doing and horses who haven't been trained to respond to rein or leg .


Joel I had a chuckle at this!

My grandfather had a driving mare. My mother, her sister and brother would put sugar on the ground, stand astride her neck until she lifted her head and they could scramble onto her back. They were seven and under and the mare 15.2. 
They would 'ride' her around the orchard without any tack or halter. When she got fed up with them she would go under the low branches so they were dragged off!


----------



## Joel Reiter (Feb 9, 2015)

Foxhunter said:


> When she got fed up with them she would go under the low branches so they were dragged off!


LOL. Well now I know of one!


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I have had a lot of dealings with ponies and know only to well that many will take advantage of a young rider. Some do this by just shoving their heads down to eat. Others will be borderline dangerous. Then there are the ones that are total angels - even then they will sometimes do something off the rails!

My eldest niece had never really ridden other than sit on the racehorses and be led around. I was given a Champion Lead Rein First Ridden pony. I had been assured that the pony was bomb proof and ideal for novice children. (we had changed trailers at a motorway stop with heavy vehicles whizzing past and she hadn't flinched) 
When the girls came the eldest was first to ride in the arena. The pony didn't put a foot wrong, my niece had her trotting and as I will not allow a novice roder to trot rose until they can do a good sitting trot, she was sitting deep, not moving at all. Pony went round and niece asked her to canter, a pace she had never ridden before, and pony immediately went into canter, niece was still sitting deep so pony thought sh couldmrodemamd put in a buck. Niece went flying whilst her mother and i shrieked with laughter! 

When my younger niece, who was undergoing chemotherapy at the time, rode her and wanted to be off the lead, that pony was so good, she walked and trotted, changed the rein, even cantered and when a stirrup was lost and a wobble occurred, she slowed to a walk until thenstirrupmwasmfound and then went on again. 

She truly was a great ride for small children, when she felt they could ride she would test them all the way.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Foxhunter said:


> Joel I had a chuckle at this!
> 
> My grandfather had a driving mare. My mother, her sister and brother would put sugar on the ground, stand astride her neck until she lifted her head and they could scramble onto her back. They were seven and under and the mare 15.2.
> They would 'ride' her around the orchard without any tack or halter. When she got fed up with them she would go under the low branches so they were dragged off!


 Also had ahorse like that, and yes, they exist!

My step dad used horses in the tobacco fields, but was not a' horse person'
My mother was completely a non horse person,a nd never went near them.
I was born loving horses, thus as a teenager, I longed for a saddle horse, but made do, riidng those work hroses
Work in those tobacco fields in those days was very hard, so my mom said, 'why don't you get Judy a riding horse, as she worked so hard this summer" (certainly were not paid any money)
while not a horse person, my step dad was a practical man.
Since the horses we had at home were mares, what do you buy that horse loving step daughter? A stallion of course, and not just any stallion, but a spoiled Anglo Arabian stud ( he was cheap ! )
That horse reared, went over backwards, pulled away when led, kicking out (got me in the hip), and would try to run me against something, if everything else failed. Soon as I was on, or just even part way on, he would try and run me against the fence, or under the loft bridge of the barn ( In Ontario, barns had an upper floor, often used as a hay loft, and one drove a wagon of loose hay into it, over a wooden kind of 'draw bridge, except it did not go up! ) I would have to swing sideways out of the saddle,as he bolted under that bridge. Of course, I knew squat in those days about preventing a bolt, or even of the danger, having a horse go over backwards, and would just step back on, after he went over
I often think back of the stress I put my poor mother through!
Yes, you can use a ploughed field and just let a horse that wants to bolt, run until he has had enough, begging to be allowed to stop running, or, you put the training on him to diffuse any attempt at bolting in the first place. I prefer the latter!


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

mkmurphy81 said:


> It can be hard to tell the difference between a horse that is taking advantage of a rider ("spoiled") and one that is genuinely fearful, especially if we're trying to diagnose it over the internet. Mia is a perfect example of genuine fear. Bsms can diagnose that because he was actually there. A horse I used to own, Star, was a perfect example of one who would take any advantage she could get. I have an old picture somewhere of me at about age 10 riding her double bareback with a slip-noose halter made of braided hay strings. I could control her off of my voice and legs, and she was an angel. She did not have large holes in her training. If someone new (not beginner, just unknown to the horse) tried to ride her, she would bolt to see what she could get away with. She tested riders and only listened to the ones she respected. I could diagnose her because I was there to see it.
> 
> Which of these horses most resembles the OP's? It's hard to say without being there. If a trainer can ride her without problems, I lean towards spoiled/taking advantage. If the horse is nervous in the scary corner with the trainer, I lean towards genuine fear.


There is no argument that there can be a true fear element, and we have been round and round on this one!
Some horses are more reactive than others-again true
BUT, thorough training, you teach them to dampen their natural flight reaction, through trust , body control, BEFORE you take them out on trails, so that you can ride them through stuff , thus get them to trust your leardership. Sure, they might still spook at an un expected animal bursting out from somewhere, BUT, they do not try to spin, bolt , buck or run backwards. Those things are the3 result of incorrect training, riding a horse out before you have the ability to take his head away, and get his attention back on you
Of course you can't completely diagnose a horse via the internet, but with reasonable experience, you can make a  good guesstimate, based on reading what is written between the lines
_horse used to only balk in one area, now balks everywhere
Horse was accidently rewarded, by rider getting off, or mom leading horse by those places
_horse tried to spin and bolt outside
Horse needs a standing martingale, or bonks rider in the head
This certainly shows a horse that needs re training, if not a horse that has learned to sue spooking for intimidation
'People ', at the barn, seem to know this horse as being 'difficult', one you would not ride with spurs (disclaimer, person has to know how to use spurs correctly, and have an independant seat, and always ask with just legs first)
Why do you think someone like Cheri and other experienced horse people here, pegged this horse as being spoiled?
If something looks like arose, smells like a rose, good chance that it is a rose!

Mia was green, when BSMS bought her, and that is all I'm going to say!


----------



## mkmurphy81 (May 8, 2015)

Smilie, I tend to agree with you and Cheri. I was trying to acknowledge both sides and avoid being argumentative. (Oh who am I kidding. This is the internet! Arguing is what we do!:lol

Like I said, "If a trainer can ride her without problems, I lean towards spoiled/taking advantage." It sounds like a trainer or previous rider could have ridden this horse without any problems. So, my not-so-expert opinion is that the horse is taking advantage of the OP. However, I'm not a professional trainer, so I hesitate to take a hard stand without seeing the horse in action. I'll leave that to you and Cheri!


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

The thing about fear is that it can escalate into terror or a phobia with humans. 

One woman I rode for, and she had been an international show jumper, had bred two horses from a very good mare. When I went to help exercise this pair I was told that I shouldn't rode out on a Tuesday because that was the day the dust cart was in the village and the horses were terrified of it. That was a red rag to a bull for me! 
Sure enough the horse would see the dustcart up the street and try to spin and take off.

By the end of a couple of hours of chasing the dustcart as it went about the village, he was taking no notice of it. No beating up but sheer determination to make him face his 'fear' 

Some horses will use anything as an excuse to spook and if it is in a corner of the arena then it will be circled round and round that area until it is taking no notice.

In my experience majority of 'fear' in the horse comes from the rider. They see something and think, "He's not going to like this!" Amd the horse reacts accordingly. I see something and think, "Hey matey, you haven't seen this before, a new adventure!" Rarely is there any bother. 

The little,cob I have been working had never in his six years of life, been out of his field. I long reined him down the track one way, he was astounded at there being more to the world than his fields. After the first few minutes he started to march, yes, he was looking at everything but still going forward. Yesterday I took him the other way into the back of a housing estate. First thing we met were three dogs jumping at the fence barking, then a pile of large nylon sacks filled with sand and gravel, then a large polythene sheet billowing and rattling in someone's garden. He looked and hesitated but never stopped moving forward. When he moved across the road from the sacks I circled him around a couple of times until he was going next to them. 
Round the corner a group of children were playing on their bikes and skateboards. They saw the horse coming and stopped. I asked them to continue but to keep to the some and when coming past from behind to call,out "Bike passing." so he knew something other than me was behind him. He never turned a hair. The kids thought it great fun and when I thanked them one lad said, "Usually horse riders shout at us to stop and get out the way." 

I swear that his reaction is not just because he is a bold horse but because of my thinking and determination. Also because in the stable I insist that he does what I ask when I ask or, preferably before I ask!


----------



## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

In postscript to my last post in this discussion:

What people need when they come here to ask questions about horses and training issues is encouragement and sound advice. Period.

What is never helpful is:


 Jumping to conclusions about their situations
 Making condescending sermons on how horses are dangerous animals
 Not honouring the fact that people and horses have great learning potential
 Kneejerk statements about sending the horse to a trainer or people being “outhorsed” or the horse “having their number” or that they are unqualified to be even breathing in the absence of a trainer
 Perpetuating myths about horse behaviour
 Glibly criticising a person's choice of horse
 Dismissing the great value of reading widely and systematically about horse behaviour and training
 Insinuating that a learner can never hope to reach the hallowed heights of the advising person's expertise
 
However, unfortunately, the above list features commonly in advice given in horse training situations, on forum discussion pages and in real life.

What is even less helpful is presenting advice which, if followed, is likely to have negative consequences for the learning of the horse and rider/handler, and which is capable of creating yet another “problem horse”. The most common form of bad advice is the kind that pays little attention to the kinds of things that very commonly create problems with horses, and leaps instead immediately and pathologically to the half-baked theory that all will be well if the horse has it impressed upon him that he is a lesser being than the handler and therefore must obey the handler (apparently whether or not he actually understands what is wanted, or is in a position to produce it).

And this is the number one reason horses start to engage in desperate behaviour. Instead of investigating the most common reasons horse don't do what is wanted, many people push at horses, imagining they know precisely what to do and are too stubborn, ornery or uppity to comply, and “I'll show'em who's boss.” This includes both many amateurs and many professionals in the horse industry – the latter often setting the tone for the former and extolling their own expertise.

Mostly when horses don't do what we want, it's because we've not taught them properly, or we're not consistent with our cues, or the person who taught them a particular thing cued them a little (or a lot) differently to the way we do, or they have been traumatised by negative experiences with people, or there is an underlying problem with the tack and/or an injury causing discomfort, or the way the animal is kept causes it health issues, frustration, boredom, depression, etc, or the rider's lack of skills or balance is causing a problem for the horse, or a combination of the above (and this list is by no means exhaustive).

In such scenarios, if an ignorant and unsympathetic person (whether amateur or professional – we've seen it lots of times) comes along and decides a horse needs to be shown who's boss, a horse is often driven into desperate behaviour to try to escape from the situation, and thereby acquires “vices” thus unwittingly taught it by its handlers – rearing, bucking, striking out, breaking away, etc. And then, before too long, unless someone with commonsense, understanding and goodwill appears, the horse ends up paying for the stupidity of its human handlers, with its own life, as it becomes another “dangerous and unpredictable” animal headed into the direction of a dog food can. 

Soundbytes can't teach you to train, and they can't teach you an ethical philosophy. Innate qualities such as kindness, empathy and logical thinking are profoundly necessary. Serious systematic reading on horse behaviour and training is very helpful, as is spending time with people who train horses in a gentle and kind manner, and, of course, spending time working with the animals themselves... Compared to humans, horses are remarkably peaceful and cooperative creatures, and humans could learn a lot from them if they laid aside their mistaken notions of their own superiority.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Susie, Why do you assume that all horses are forever honest and have good work ethics, and that any horse who displays an un wanted behavior has been abused.
Yes, most horse have been messed up by people, and I`m 100 % behind using empathy and kind training methods. You know neither me or my horses, so to assume that anyone who is firm with a horse that has learned to use spooking to his advanatage, having been accidently rewarded for spooking, must be abusive and produces the kinds of horses that you re habilitate , is both wrong and insulting
In fact, there are more horses that wind up going to the kill pen from being spoiled than abused. Horses who have no respect for humans, with some becoming down right dangerous, through mis handling
There is a middle road you know,from where you train horses with kindness and empathy . The two extremes are handling and riding a horse in such a manner that he becomes dangerous, looses all respect, and that of using fear, intimidation and abusive methods to force a horse, rather than train him through understanding.
Nether extreme does the horse any good, and both produce horses with little future
Perhaps read this link, to give you another view point , and which to me, is much more based in reality

Good Intentions and Cruelty to Horses - LOPE


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Spoiling a horse is every bit as much of a dis service to a horse as being abusive-neither is fair to the horse,or makes the horse a valued and safe companion, and both produce a horse of little worth, far as a trusted eqwuine companion-the kind that have a greater chance of finding a good home.
Since you posted all the abusive ways that horses with poor behavior are created, it is only fair to read the link I posted, and see the other end of the spectrum, where horses with those vises are also produced , not by abuse, but rather by no leadership ,allowing the horse to assume that role, through no fault of his own
From the above link:

Why is it so cruel to spoil horses? It ultimately can nearly ruin them for any productive work and safe interaction with people. Over time, no matter how compassionate the owner believes their treatment to be, the horse will become insecure, neurotic, erratic, tense, and/or aggressive in nearly every activity that involves a person asking them to do something.
Horses like this have a high chance of then becoming abused or neglected in more obvious ways. They finally bite, kick, buck off, or run over the super nice owner (who has essentially trained them to do that) — and are sold off quickly or given away (thus heading into the lower levels of the horse market with little chance for enlightened ownership).


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

In my never humble opinion, it is cruelty to spoil, horse, dog or child! 

I think it is abusive to allow animals to get obese just as it is to starve them. 

There are many little things that bug me with horses that have little or no manners especially when it takes so little to actually stop things escalating, 

There are horses that are naturally up generous with their attitude. There are horses that will take advantage and horses that are absolute angels. 

I am all for the easy route. I start in the stable, making the horse stand back and still whilst loose, this might take a while with a lot of corrections and they are just pushing the horse back to his original place. Next thing is them standing facing an open door and not walking out just because it is open. Two very simple exercises - I also insist that the horse moves back when I enter the stable. 

Having returned 'hone' after retiring, my reputation from some thirty years ago, has escalated to me bashing horses around which is something I do not do, I am tough, I am consistent, I am fair. There are no grey areas, all black and white. This works for me and for the horses I come into contact with. 

People rarely mean to be deliberately cruel/abusive, it is lack of knowledge, experience and understanding that leads to problems. All to often excuses are made for problems, he was abused, he is only six, he doesn't like to do that, he always does that it is part of his character, to name a few.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Exactly, Foxhunter!
I also set black and white boundaries, am fair and consistent with my horses.
I have no tolerance for abusive training methods, but at the same time, have seen many people get hurt, not by a horse that is fearful, has been abused, but by a horse that decides to lead, because that human did not
It's not the horse's fault, but that of the owner who inadvertently allowed him to become that way


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I must say that this is an interesting discussion, and carried on in an adult manner. 

one thing I often find about internet advice given is that the advice giver does not always comprehend the lower level of skill/experience, or fear or ignorance of the person being advised to do this or that. I mean, it might be the correct thing (or might not) but the person involved is often not up to that level of skill do put that into action, let alone understand the advice. we have a 'duty' to try and shape our advice to best fit the human, as well as the horse.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

^^^ As a newer rider who has often been frustrated by good advice I wasn't capable of following, I'd like to "like" tinyliny's post a few dozen times.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

tinyliny said:


> I must say that this is an interesting discussion, and carried on in an adult manner.
> 
> one thing I often find about internet advice given is that the advice giver does not always comprehend the lower level of skill/experience, or fear or ignorance of the person being advised to do this or that. I mean, it might be the correct thing (or might not) but the person involved is often not up to that level of skill do put that into action, let alone understand the advice. we have a 'duty' to try and shape our advice to best fit the human, as well as the horse.


I agree with this! 

The problem is, at least with me, is that I say what I do, or rather think that I say it but there are minute little things that I do automatically that I do not realise what I am doing. This can make the second part harder. 

An example of this is with the little cob. He was standing at the back of the stable for me, amd staying there. When he went to move I automatically put my hand high, fingers open (claw) and he stayed. I also gave the stand command. 

It was a minor thing but I had neglected to tell the owner so she was having more difficulty in making him stand at a distance.

I try to remember exactly what I do, but some is so automatic I don't realise I am doing it.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I agree with both of you.
There are some things you do so automatically, and based on working with many horses, so that you do make slight nuisances in approach to each horse, without even being aware of it
There are also times in the past, where I should have had the help of a professional, but flew by 'the seat of my pants', learning through the school of hard knocks, due both to being young, feeling invincible, economic realities and lack of all of the resources now available. I sure should have had help as a teenager, with that spoiled stallion my step dad bought me in his ignorance
I am lucky that I was not killed or paralyzed by him going over backwards, ect
I did ride him, even in my high school parade, but would not get on such a horse today!


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I think that many of us look back and think we were totally ignorant of the dangers! 
I would get on anything just so I could ride. Readers, buckets, runaways and nappy little so and so's. 

I did get hurt - top of the list would be pride. Majority of injuries were not from Toni g the naughty ones but from messing around on the school ponies or trying something I had seen some stunt rider do in a film or on TV. 

Wouldn't change it for a moment!


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Well, I can blame my worst wreak on my husband-who else!
It was winter, and I was riding a young gelding, full brother to Einstein and many other full siblings that I had started under saddle.
These horses were all easy to start, and had little buck in them, very sensible, thus there was a part of me that rode them , being less cautious as I would be with other colts
We were going to Calgary, thus I put a quick ride on him, and then riding back to the barn, he just shied a bit, not even a real spook,away from a black barrel, lying on it;;s side, right against the corral. It had a hole cut into it's side, as hubby used it as a bait barrel for black bear.
No worries, this was a good colt that I had already ridden lots across the open winter fields, so I just urged him up to it, then did a really stupid thing! I leaned forward, and gave him all the slack in the world to have a good smell. Most likely that barrel retained some dead meat smell, but the colt was not overly concerned. Yes, brain fart moment, as I was leaning over his neck, reins completely thrown away
At that very moment, hubby slammed the back door of the house, letting the cat in.(Our house is not far from the barn )
Colt could not jump forward, and, I was way out of position,leaning forward, with reins so thrown away, I might as well have had nothing on his head! Colt thus spun and took a great big leap,as I was still trying to gather up reins,and was thrown somewhat out of position, after that spin and leap, due to how I was sitting, just before the incident , and that caused him to buck for the first time.
I got planted, hard, on that frozen ground, resulting in 6 broken ribs.

Moral of the story, I trusted that colt too much, and treated him like a broke horse, because of how the rest of his siblings trained, and how easy he was to start. I should never have thown my reins away, nor leaned my whole body forward like that!
I read somewhere, I think it was in Horse and Rider, that more serious wreaks occur with well broke horses that the rider trusts completely, then on green horses, because people trust that broke horse too much, doing something they never would with a green horse, including skipping common safe horse handling and riding practices
That was about 10 years ago, and that colt turned out to be a great horse for a youth, who now is an adult, still has him, and has done everything from competitive trail riding to dressage on him. He is very solid and reliable, and her best buddy.
I'm sure it will not be the last mistake I make with a horse either!


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Just noticed that we went way off topic, and I guess should have a separate thread , titles 'stupid mistakes!
Sorry, but FoXhunter led me down that path-good excuse anyway!


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Yeah , blame it on Foxy.


----------



## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

I am not in the least surprised that the kind of people who disagree with my training posts think my suggestions "spoil" horses. It's a reflection on the way they think. However, this doesn't change the on-the-ground reality, which is that our own family and other people I know who share our philosophy have successfully and without exception rehabilitated "problem" horses who were considered dangerous and unpredictable and whom other trainers had written off, and that our horses are cooperative and have a very positive attitude to working with humans.

A little taster of an excellent approach to horse training:

This is from the beginning of “_Horse Control – The Young Horse_” (Griffin Press, Netley, South Australia, 1974) - a horse training manual I highly recommend. If we still had him with us, this is what Tom might post.


*TRAINING PROCEDURES:*


“_That will profit you” - “That will profit you not”_
“_Quiet persistence”_
“_End-of-Lesson”, what it means_
“_Old Hat”_
_Use of voice in training_


Few people who set out to train and educate a young horse give any thought to the great difficulties that face the horse.

How many of us setting out to teach him have given serious thought or study of HOW to teach him: how to establish a system of signals or aids that most riders grow up with and accept as being natural, but of which the horse has no knowledge whatsoever?

I am going to ask you a question, and before you read on I would like you to answer it clearly – to yourself.

_Question_: “Why does a horse stop or go slower if you pull on the reins?” If you answer, “Because it hurts the mouth,” I am sorry to have to break the news to you – you have failed.

But no, I'll give you another chance: “Why do you jump up instantly if you sit on an upturned tack or drawing pin?”

If you answer again: “Because it hurts” - you really do need to read every word in this book!


_The horse stops – and you jump up – not just because it hurts, but to stop it hurting. By no means the same thing._​ ​ And there isn't any doubt: if jumping up didn't stop the pain, _you_ would try doing something else. So, too, eventually, does the horse. _These are not trick questions._ If you really believe in and act on the answer you gave to the first, then you think that all you have to do is to hurt your horse's mouth and he will stop.

On the contrary, the important thing is to let him know – to teach him – how, by doing what you want of him, he can _avoid_ any pain, irritation, inconvenience and discomfort the bit (or whip or spur) might otherwise cause. Good trainers do everything they possibly can to avoid hurting the horse or even letting him hurt himself. Our real goal should be never to have to hurt our horse.

_Reward and punishment _is often cited as the secret of successful horse training and undoubtedly both rewards and punishments have their place. But – we should seldom, if ever, resort to punishment when teaching our horse anything new. 

Punishment, when we use it, should be reserved for exceptional occasions. Don't think “Reward and Punishment.”

_Encourage and discourage_ is a better guide, as it drops the term “punishment.” When riding a young horse we alternate from encourage to discourage very frequently and quite often change from discourage to encourage several times in a matter of seconds.

But the term “discourage” still has the drawback that it _can_ include punishment; and we should discard any term that could include punishment as a normal training procedure. Punishment and teaching are “divorced.”

It is to avoid using any expression that could possibly include punishment as a normal teaching procedure that I suggest you think in the terms:


“_*That will profit you – that will profit you not.”*_​ 

These terms mean exactly – _exactly_ – what they say.

“_To Profit”_ is to benefit or gain: to be better off. The profit to the horse can be any reward or encouragement the trainer may think his pupil should receive – and it must, of course, be available to give.

“_To Profit Not”_ means that the horse will gain or benefit not at all. Just that. It certainly does not mean that he will suffer a loss or be worse off – as he would be if he were punished.

This is what is so important about these expressions – and why I use them. By no stretch of the imagination can “Profit you not” be construed as punishment.
_

It consists of withholding any gain, reward, encouragement and profit. That, and only that._ 



_*Quiet Persistence*_

“It will profit you not” means that the horse will not be encouraged to follow a line of conduct other than what we have in mind for him. We withhold any gain – which means we quietly continue with our demands, whatever they may be.


_We persist. We quietly persist with our demands._​ 

This gentle discouragement of “quiet persistence” is something that horse seem to find irresistible. Whenever you are in doubt as to what course to follow, mounted or dismounted, revert to “Quiet Persistence.” Your quiet persistence is the real “That will profit you not.” It discourages the horse _without punishing him_.

Punishment does have its place in the training scheme, with some horses more clearly than with others – but even then it should be used only occasionally. Do not revert to punishment when you are trying to teach the horse something new. It upsets the horse and destroys the calmness so essential to his taking-in a new lesson. So punishments are “out” when teaching any new lesson.


_*End of Lesson*_


_End of Lesson is the best, most effective and most convenient of all rewards and encouragements._​ 

What End of Lesson means:

When teaching a horse almost anything at all – no matter what it is, “End of Lesson” means a pause, a break, a rest for a while – or even, on some occasions, completely finishing the work for the day _at the moment_ the horse has made or is making progress in a lesson.

_At the very instant_ of the action that constitutes progress, the teacher ends the lesson – for a while, at least.

Ending a lesson constitutes a reward, an encouragement, an incentive to the horse to try to follow and understand what is being taught to him.


_*The End-of-Lesson procedure is probably the most important procedure in the scheme of horse training.*_​ ​ 
We use the End-of-Lesson technique from the first day our young horse is yarded and continue using it to the last day of his schooling.

_End-of-Lesson_ is always available for use.

Because it is easy for the horse to understand, it keeps him calm and so leads to the greatest progress. When the horse is calm, the most permanent impressions are made on his mind.

End-of-Lesson is of equal value to the trainer. It keeps him looking for and recognising progress as the horse tries first one thing and then another. He looks for progress to encourage – rather than “stupidity” to punish.


----------



## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

“_*Old Hat”*_

“Old Hat” is another expression I will repeatedly use to indicate the horse's attitude to a previous experience. He (I pretend) says: “Old Hat!” whenever he is asked to do, again, something he has already proved to be not objectionable.

The “Old Hat” technique is literally used in hundreds of ways – as you will read later on. It means we do something (or get the horse to do something) new – and then before anything can go wrong or he becomes upset, we “End-the-Lesson.”

Next time he is in a similar position, he remembers nothing unpleasant resulted from the first occasion, and he remains calm. A few repetitions and he accepts it (whatever it is) as “Old Hat.”

An instance: we separate a foal from its dam for a few moments. Before the foal has time to become very excited at finding itself alone, we put them together again. Tomorrow or on some other occasion, we separate them again and once more put them together after a short period. We do this several times and after a while the foal ceases to worry. “It's 'Old Hat' - nothing to worry about, we'll get together again later on!” seems to be the reaction.

_This is a characteristic of the horse._ Recognise it and keep it in mind. From it we learn _*to repeat lessons rather than to prolong*_ them – particularly if what we are doing or getting the horse to do is exciting or frightening to him.



_*Use of the Voice in Teaching *_*(excerpt)*

The use of the voice can be very useful at times to let the horse know when he is on the right track, particularly in the early dismounted work. There are scores of things you do not want him to do on any occasion and he may try quite a number of them. To each attempt you gently say “No,” “No,” and you quietly and gently persist with your demands.

Think and act gently and kindly – for he is trying. Say , “No,” “No,” gently and quietly, but in a manner he could not possibly confuse with your “Purring” (pleasant tone of voice for reinforcing correct behaviour, “That's _right_, _clever_ boy...” etc).

The voice can convey to him “Approved” or “Not Approved” almost simultaneously with his action, and under all circumstances – mounted or dismounted.

There's no end to the number of things you do NOT want him to do and he may try out a few of them or all of them. To each attempt you should gently indicate to him: “Not that,” “Not that.” Or better still, think, “Not that, Boy;” think gently, think kindly; he is trying.

Most important of all, when he does show the slightest tendency to do the ONE thing you _do_ want, you must instantly change your “tune” and substitute, “That's right,” or “That's better, clever Boy...clever Boy.” Then “End of Lesson” - have a rest.


_The really important thing is your ability to show approval or disapproval instantly._​ 

Two seconds later will be too late. Sometimes the youngster will have tried so many things that if your approval is late he will have difficulty in knowing what _did_ please you.

If you use the same purring tone always – and instantly – and only to show approval, you will find he relaxes the instant you begin to use it. When mounted you can FEEL him relax under you, and you'll be able to imagine him thinking: “That's good! Struck it at last.  Now, exactly what DID I do to please the man?”



*A LESSON IS ANYTHING YOU TEACH YOUR HORSE – GOOD OR BAD*

Every experience the young horse has becomes a lesson. If what he learns is useful to us, we like to call it “training”or “education.” But if what he learns is a nuisance or dangerous, we often brand it a “vice.”

(Roberts goes on to describe how people unwittingly form vices in horses by letting up - “Ending-the-Lesson” - at the wrong moment, by creating situations where that can easily occur, by punishing horses, by ill-fitting and painful gear, by expecting instant perfection rather than immediately encouraging _small progress in the right direction_, thereby confusing the horse, etc.- and what to do about it when this has already happened. And that's only the start of the book – some basics, before meticulously covering safety of horse and handler, age at education, groundwork, lunging, early ridden training, teaching basic dressage, light hand-light mouth, impulsion, traffic, shying, spookiness, and teaching to trailer. More advanced training – higher-level dressage, jumping, etc is covered in the sequel.)



Tom Roberts wrote his books in his 70s, when he was too plagued by knee problems to stand in the ring educating riders or to work with horses himself any longer. Originally British, he had spent his lifetime training horses and riders on several continents, starting with the British army, where he became their youngest ever certified riding instructor aged 16 and worked with many “problem horses”. During the Depression he joined the South Australian Mounted Police and became their chief instructor. He also conducted schools of equitation Australia-wide, judged at the Royal Shows, competed in polo, jumping, dressage, campdrafting etc, and hunted. In 1950 he formed the Dressage Club of South Australia, and he wrote for and edited horse magazines.

Consequently, his books are a treasure trove of a resource for any amateur or professional horse trainer. The 202 pages of systematic training advice go through the vast majority of things we may wish to teach young horses, and trouble-shooting problems; and following this advice results in calm, cooperative, teachable horses who enjoy their work. No short post on a forum is a substitute for this sort of substantial reading. In over 30 years of training horses, we have yet to come across a “problem” horse who is not vastly improved by the methods espoused in this book (and relieved to be rid of its troubles). Roberts is by no means the only person who has written wonderful books to further understanding of animal training – but he is certainly one of the best who ever wrote in Australia.

Franz Mairinger, erstwhile trainer of the Australian Olympic Equestrian Team and Senior Rider of the Spanish Riding School in Vienna, and highly successful jumping rider in A-grade competition, wrote this to Roberts after reading his manuscript: _“You combine thorough knowledge and vast experience with your searching mind to produce a highly interesting and readable book: __but more than that, you give really sound advice based on the lines of classical teaching. Your advice, with the given examples of how it works, combined with your stress on patience and understanding, makes it a valuable help for any beginner. I am sure, too, that even the experts will find something they have not thought of before. To all those who do not think that they know it all, I warmly recommend this book.”_


----------



## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Here's a classically based trainer and HF member and the amazing things she has achieved in a short time with her mustang, who is never coerced:

https://augustusthemustang.wordpress.com/

Her results speak for themselves.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I do not expect a young horse to instinctively know what the bit in his mouth is for. _I teach him from the start._

I put a bit in a horse's mouth, I let him fiddle with it until he is use to the feel. I start him on the lunge line. I teach him the words, walk, throat, canter and whoa. I will ask him to yield his head in a halter, then ask the same with rein pressure. The moment I get the slightest yield, I relax the pressure. 
I _teach_ him with long reining, to give to the rein contact, to a feel on the mouth along with the word 'whoa' to stop so he associates the rein feel with stopping or slowing a pace, just as I teach that the line flapping along his side means to move forward or up a pace. _Always using the verbal command along with the aid so he gets to know they are the same thing._

When I back a horse I do not sit there waiting for an explosion. I sit there as if I belong on his back. I wave my arms I touch him all over places I can reach, I ride him straight out onto the roads and tracks, walk trotting and cantering forst time ridden. I do this with confidence knowing that I have _taught_ him to understand the aids from the ground and he can transfer them to me being in the saddle.

I ride a youngster with confidence, he has learned to understand what I want and how to please me. He has learned that working with me is fun, interesting and comfortable. 

I do not expect a horse to stop/turn because I pull on the reins, I know I have to teach them. 

On the other hand if a horse, that knows better, tries to take advantage of me or a novice rider, then I am not at all bothered about setting the horse up to try to take advantage of me and then showing it that I am no there to be laughed at, chaffed at or made a fool of. I do not set out to cause him pain, I set out to show him that taking advantage is not a good thing and if this requires hauling him in a tight circle with one rein, then I will do so. 

Ponies in particular will take advantage of small children. One child, riding a lovely 13.2 pony with hounds was being carted all over the place. The young girl was trying her hardest. I took her on a lead rein to start and the little so and so was hauling me too! 
The child had him in a pelham wit rein couplings. I changed the rein from the coupling to the bottom ring, tightened the curb chain and set off again. I made the bit stronger, do when she used the rein there was more pressure, he felt it and accepted, after a very short time that the girl had the 'strength' to hold him. She was not rough with her hands either. 
The pony knew exactly what the reins were for but chose to ignore it in the excitement of following hounds, the child was getting frightened of not being in control, of crashing into other horses when they slowed, all making it a potentially dangerous situation. By altering the reins the pony felt the extra leverage and was compliant to the rider. 
_I would rather do that for both their safety, than having one or both with a broken leg._


----------



## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Well, I will wade into this discussion. As most of you know, I made my living for many years training for the public. Most of the the previously ridden horses that I got in were either badly spoiled, downright dangerous or at the very least, had some training or behavior problem. The 'easy' ones were 'one leaded' or 'head slingers' or refused to back up or some other little thing. The really bad ones were dangerous and several had either crippled or nearly killed their owners or other trainers. I was literally their last chance to escape the slaughter house or a 30.06. 

Almost all of them went home trained and happy with no fears of their rider or handler. I consider a horse that is afraid of their handler to be as dangerous as one that has no manners or respect. 

Several things strike me here as this story unfolded: First and foremost I see a horse with very poor forward impulsion. This is part or all of the problem in every post this person as posted about this horse.

I also see a rider that has gotten off and let the horse be in charge waaaay too much of the time. Getting off and leading a horse or having someone on the ground lead the horse where it won't go for the rider is a 'win' in the horse's column and definitely a 'loss' for the rider.

I also see a very smart horse. This is not always a good thing with a less than assertive rider. This horse has figured out that if she balks or spooks, this rider is going to 'back off' and release the pressure they have been putting on her to do something or go somewhere. Only smart horses learn the difference between the 'feel' a rider gives them. They comply instantly with an assertive, confident rider and balk and lose impulsion with the rider they know is not going to make them do something. 

I know how frustrating it is for a rider to have a horse that absolutely refuses to do something for them and that same horse does not even falter or hesitate with a different rider. It can be anything from going over a fence to crossing water or as basic as leaving the barn or their buddies. 

Horses sense immediately when someone removes pressure before they have complied with a request. There is an old saying "He who moves his feet first, loses." This is very true when working with a horse on the ground. NEVER let a horse make you take a step backward when you are handling him. The same is true when mounted. "He who backs down first, loses". This horse has learned that this rider will back down and take the pressure off if it just acts stubborn or spooky. 

So yes! This horse has become spoiled to some degree. It is not real spoiled. It is not flipping over or bucking a rider off or bolting blindly across a busy highway. It is just obnoxious and doing what it can do to get the pressure off and NOT work for this particular rider.. Some people are good at training horses. Some horses are good at training people. This smart little ****** has taught this rider to take the pressure off (quit asking it to go forward) when it does not want to go or work. 

The solution? A different kind of trainer and coach. We have worked a LOT with this kind of problem and this kind of rider. We do not stress equitation and form. We teach control. We do not think a rider can 'ride' until they can get Dobbin to go north when he really wants to go south. This is not a badly spoiled horse that is trying to hurt someone. This is just a horse that has learned how to train her rider. 

We teach timing and using the right amount of pressure at the right time and apply it in the right way. Usually, it means leaving the right door open for the horse to go through and putting just enough pressure on the horse to not make it get reactive but make it easy for the horse to go through that door. We keep setting up riders to do increasingly difficult things with their horse so they can develop the timing and feel that it takes to get the horse to go through that open door. 

This is not coercion or abuse or force. This is just good sound training that gives immediate results without producing a fearful horse. Anyone can say anything they want, but good training under saddle requires good forward impulsion. You can teach a horse all kinds of tricks and little cute things without good forward impulsion, BUT, I have yet to see anyone that gets any productive training done under saddle without having good forward impulsion when the rider asks for it. I have also not seen clickers and treats get good forward impulsion going in a horse that does not already have good natural impulsion.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

FWIW, the LightRider Bitless Bridle arrived today. I think I got it fitting on Bandit correctly. I only spent a few minutes checking things out. But my initial impression is that it will require me to train him in its use. It is similar to a sidepull, and similar in many ways to the Billy Allen snaffle in terms of effects, but it is different enough that he seems hesitant and uncertain of what is wanted.

That is me standing next to him, moving the reins held between my thumb and index finger and giving a cue and waiting for a small response. I think it will take at least 30 minutes of work from the ground and maybe more. Certainly more at a walk. He is a good-natured horse. If I do it right, I can set him up for success.

But how many toss a bit (or some other piece of tack or idea of use) on a horse and assume he knows what it means, and how he is to respond? How many then say he is a naughty horse, or a bad one, for not responding? How many try a bit or bitless and conclude their horse won't accept it, when in reality he was never trained to accept it?

Now, will our mustang Cowboy test a rider? Yes. He has been trained by his previous riders - and he knows some riders must be obeyed, and others can be intimidated into leaving you alone. Since he can't always tell which type of rider is getting on his back, he'll test - because that is how he knows what to do. If Foxhunter got on his thick little back, he'd probably have sized her up before her foot hit the stirrup and would be a lamb.

If accepting a new rider meant going out on the trails with the big horses, he'd be quite submissive. He likes going out with them. But if a new rider got on him and planned to do a bunch of arena work on him - something he loathes - he'd test to see if the rider could be buffaloed into putting him back into the corral. He isn't being bad or naughty. Just practical. He was taught (trained) that both types exist. If he doesn't know what category of rider it is before they mount, he'll find out after they mount. Not naughty. Just responding to how people trained him.

The answer, as Tom Roberts points out, isn't anger or blame. Simply "This will profit you not". That is all he needs to know. The key is often to figure out what the "profit" is, so you can remove the "profit" and thus the incentive to "be bad".


----------



## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

FH, I think TR would quite agree with you about the distinction between teaching a horse and dealing with a horse who is deliberately being difficult. It's just that he thinks horses being deliberately difficult is a pretty rare thing if they are trained well, living well, and handled with empathy, and I agree with him.  I also agree with him that many people jump right past the most common reasons for trouble with horses, and decide to make it about power, and that this backfires. Sure, many horses can be bullied into submission, but it's not the best way to get the most out of your horse, especially if the horse has an IQ above room temperature, or a sensitive disposition.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I think the reason I dislike the word "spoiled" is that I grew up hearing things like, "X is spoiled. He needs a good whipping!"

No, X was learning it profited him to do certain things, and he needed DISCIPLINE. Discipline is important for horses, too, but discipline and whipping are not interchangeable. It might be others didn't hear folks say the same thing when growing up, so they don't equate "spoiled" with "needs whipping".

And yes, I remember having people tell me that when Mia got scared, I needed to whip her - to make her more afraid of me than of the scary thing. So maybe my problem with hearing "spoiled" is that I view it through the lens of the local culture and how I grew up. Like Cherie said, "_ I consider a horse that is afraid of their handler to be as dangerous as one that has no manners or respect._"


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

As usual Cherie has it right and says so in a concise way.

I don't think anyone writing on this has said anything about not teaching a horse when it doesn't know, certainly what I and I think Smilie too, is saying is that this horse is taking advantage of an inexperienced rider and needs to be taught that this doesn't pay. I agree with Cherie that the roder needs better help in being taught how to deal with the situation. 

Four members of out Riding Club decided to enter a National competition for a Quadrille team. They trained and practised like crazy. I had nothing to do with them until the last couple of weeks when imwasmasked to advise. 
All the time they had practised one horse, a horse I had ridden and competed on, would keep spooking as he passed one of the others. The roder did all the correct things but this horse was still jumping to the side when they passed. I proceeded to stand at the point where they passed. As the horse went to spook so he got my dressage whip across his legs. They passed a few times with me just standing there and then without. 
End of spooking because he knew I would return!


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Yes, I thank Cheri for chiming in,as she is basically putting into clearer ,slightly different words what You, Foxhunter, and I am have saying all along.
No one is suggesting to beat this horse. We are suggesting, if the horse understands cues for ;forward`, which, since she is not a green horse, but a broke horse, should, then you have to get that forward, as this horse has learned to intimidate the rider.
No one here, suggested a horse be beat into complying, esp to cues he dose not understand
On the other hand, once a `smart horse`starts to use balking, spooking, to intimidate a rider ( ruling out all pain disclaimer applies ), then you have to follow, àsk, ask louder, then demand
Horses are creatures of habit. They learn those habits by association of reward and repetition, not through any moral reasoning
Thus, a horse might have a true fright spook at first, but th erider gets off . Does not take a smart horse long to associate that spooking with getting out of work. Why should it. You are using the exact same concept , that is the basis of a horse learning correct responses. You are creating that `negative training`, and that is all that often is the basics of a horse that learns to balk, not ride out, ect. No abuse. No confusion, Just learning by rewarding the wrong response, accidently
BSMS, you do need to have that feel, to reward when a horse first gives, and you also have to make sure the horse first understands any cue, before ever demanding complience
Horse learn by pressure and more importantly, by release from that pressure, when they make the slightest attempt to comply.
Thus if first teaching a horse to give laterally, you would just hold, steady, no pulling, letting the horse figure out how to respond. The minute he give the slightest, you would reward, and then you build on that. 
On agree colt that does not really understand forward, in response to legs, you would cluck, if he learned verbal cues from ground word, and then untrack him sideways, never try to boot him straight head
If you read the link I posted, it defines `spoiled`more as it applies to horses, versus as you might apply it to a child
Maybe it is no more concise than `shanked snaffle, or hackamore, where people equate hackamore, not being synonymous with bosal , but being the same as a mechanical hackamore
Thus a spoiled horse is not just a horse that has learned to walk all over people, look at them as a `human vending machine, assume they can bite or kick at people, but horses that have learned they can decide as to where they will or will not ride or lead. Horses that have had no clear white and black boundaries, thus learned they can stall out, refuse request for forward, move into a leg, instead of off of it, when it suits their purpose, while perfectly understanding to move away from that leg


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I didn't mean to suggest either Foxhunter or Smilie was suggesting to just dominate the horse. However, I know a few years ago, that is how I would have interpreted "He is spoiled". Thus my comments. Someone who hasn't spent their lives around horses might interpret spoiled or naughty in a like manner, or not. It is very hard to say how anyone interprets anything on the Internet. 

If we remember a spoiled or naughty or bad horse has been trained to do that behavior - and I think most life-long riders understand that - then we approach the correction phase differently. At least, for myself, I think of "retraining" very differently than "punish". And as the US Cavalry manual put it: "...it is better not to punish at all than to punish wrongly". In context, the Cavalry manual points out that punishment done poorly creates a bitter, resentful horse.

For someone like myself, who has struggled with anger management his entire life, a phrase like "_It will profit you not_" is a slower but more certain guide to good results. It takes longer, but saves me from trying to punish in a way that the horse does not connect, or that is disproportionate, or too little too late - all sins I've committed with my horses, who happily are forgiving and understand people over the long haul. I'm finding few horses will continue forever digging a well that won't strike oil. They are better investors than that.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

There is often misinterpretation on the Internet plus, although it is better than it was, often a language barrier between this and that side of the pond!

I learned as a child that loosing ones temper didn't get you very far! I can get 'cross' which is entirely different from loosing it. 
Nothing more fun than having someone loose it and you remain totally calm regardless of what they are screaming!


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

In the military, a theatrical loss of temper could be very helpful. I worked hard to do it well. I'm not sure it hurts any with horses, provided it is good theater and not a true loss of control...:wink:


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

No one here, and certainly not I, is suggesting to use anger or loss of temper to correct a horse, in fact, any good horseman will tell you that is exactly what NOT to do
We also are going round and round about making sure a horse understands what he is being asked to do, and that also is a given. I'm sure this horse at this point and time, understands the request for 'forward'

What we are talking about here,, is a horse,that is just being a horse., testing a rider ,and failing to get the right answer as to 'who is leading who'
If you don't lead, the horse will-it is in his very nature to do so
Setting clear boundaries is not synonymous with harsh training, having no empathy, or, no true affection or bond with your horse-all completely false
Also, I'm not about to cut and paste, as you only have to click on the link I posted, to get an interpretation of what is considered spoiled,, and how horse become that way.
It is also not true, that if a horse is always treated with kindness, he will never resort to actions like this horse. Horse will be horses.
How do horses become show sour?
Happens because in the show ring, a rider will often let little things slip, as his ride is still good enough to place, and that horse soon learns that different rules apply in the show ring then outside of it. Soon he ups the anty, taking the proverbial mile
Sure, part is often that the horse is not ridden out, but none the less, no excuse to take advantage of the rider
What about the horse that is excused for acting up ,because the wind is blowing, or a tractor is working near -by, or,'..... Soon that rider won't be riding that horse anywhere, unless the surroundings are completely quiet, no other horse is distracting him, not a breeze is blowing, etc
Horses become barn sour because they are enabled to become so, by the rider, trying to ride them where they can't push them through stuff(this does not mean beating ).thus the horse is allowed to turn home, or the rider gets off. Soon that horse can't be ridden past the end of that laneway
So my advise still stands.
If the horse needs to have some body control put on her first, get some softness in the face and poll, then do so, taking off that martigale and riding that horse where you can ride him, until you get that body control to ride him successfully, where at the moment you cannot
If the horse needs a more experienced rider, to get that forward, then that also is a solution, but only if the owner also takes lessons and learns how to ride that horse through those balks.
Where in the heck does anger management fit into this thread????
A scared horse learns nothing. You correct a horse, then treat him like nothing happened, allowing him to chose that right thing made easy, and the wrong thing made hard.
Forward, then becomes easy, and balking the wrong thing, made difficult
It is not rocket science, but rather horse sense!


----------

