# Author researching for book - need endurance riders to answer a question please :)



## Overread (Mar 7, 2015)

Not a rider nor owner *is here to pick horsey peoples minds on photos instead* however you state the distance, but you've not mentioned the terrain type he's covering over the route. The type of terrain and its topography would make big differences in how much distance he can or can't potentially cover. 300miles over straight flat ground will be totally different than if its sand or stone or hilly uplands etc...

Might also do to mention if its a civilized route or over rough terrain - again differences in the nature of the ground; but also with regard to food and shelter. No food on the way might mean he has to carry more and no fresh horses means again pausing for the horse to rest and feed.


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## theamir (Mar 11, 2015)

There's some scrub land, but not a lot of grass/fodder. He's carrying a concoction of dates and "dam-el" milk (sure you get the idea there) similar to what the bedouin people would use for their horses on long treks where food and water is limited. He also does have some water and there is a well on the way to refill that.

No roads. Terrain would be very similar to this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/Outback.JPG

Dry, scrubby, arid.


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## Rain Shadow (May 1, 2014)

The Shahzada horse race is a 250 mile endurance race and is considered the longest in the world. Its in Australia over similar terrain. 

Here is a list of the times the winning horse completed it. 

Shahzada (horse race) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Do note the times are over a 5 day period. The horse does 40Km a day, or abot 25 miles per day, over five days, and that's the total for the 5 days. 

So I'd say between 4 and 5 days.


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## Rain Shadow (May 1, 2014)

Another think that you also have to take into account is the horse and is rider's relationship. 

Does the MC care about the horse? Is the horses survival something he'd care about or if the horse was ruined by the ride, is that something you are willing to happen?

A rider who needs his horse alive and in good shape at the end of the ride, will be taking a slower pace and more rest then one who treats the horse like a machine.


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

I have to echo Rain's question of do you want the horse to survive the experience?

Out west, multi day endurance rides where horses are doing 50 miles a day for 5 days are not uncommon.. but they are ridden at a conservative pace as people want their partner to not only survive the next day, but survive for years afterwards!

In contrast, you have some events in countries overseas where they are running 100 miles in 8 or 9 hours.. but the welfare of the horse suffers and I can't imagine those same horses being asked to do the same thing again the next day and the next..

As an endurance rider, if I was to read your book and you made the timeframe 4 or 5 days I would probably not be muttering too many nasty words at you, as it is a book and some creative liberty can be taken.. but any less and I would be calling bs.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

What Phantomhorse13 says ^^^^^. 

If it's a real emergency then he should arrange a fresh horse about every 25-50 miles and change out his mounts. That's still going to take 2 or 3 days but would cut his time considerably, without killing the horses. Think in terms of Pony Express.


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## theamir (Mar 11, 2015)

Unfortunately he has no option to switch horses out. He's got to make the ride alone.

I talked to some endurance riders on another forum and the answers keep varying. Some people are saying 2 days, some 4 or 5. The majority say, that with a fit horse used to the travel and with some rest stops on the way, a pace of about 3.5-4 days is doable, with some historical citations. So I think that's probably the timeline I'll use. I'm going to continue to poke around and do some additional research, especially since I'm getting so many different answers on this one. Ah, well. Research is part of writing, after all.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

theamir said:


> Unfortunately he has no option to switch horses out. He's got to make the ride alone.
> 
> I talked to some endurance riders on another forum and the answers keep varying. Some people are saying 2 days, some 4 or 5. The majority say, that with a fit horse used to the travel and with some rest stops on the way, a pace of about 3.5-4 days is doable, with some historical citations. So I think that's probably the timeline I'll use. I'm going to continue to poke around and do some additional research, especially since I'm getting so many different answers on this one. Ah, well. Research is part of writing, after all.


The Tevis and Quilty Cup rides are 2 of the toughest endurance rides and each is 100 miles and done in a day. If your rider was pushing hard, in an emergency, I can see him being able to do this 300 miler in 3 days and MAYBE his horse wouldn't suffer permanent damage. Any faster than that and I think he'd be dismounting from a dead horse at the end or close to the end.


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## Rain Shadow (May 1, 2014)

Does he need his horse to live? 

A live horse I can see doing it in about 3 1/2 days, and that's the shortest amount of time. Any less then that is totally unreasonable and would kill the horse. 

The Tevis and Quity cups might be 100 miles and a day, but those horses can't do it day after day. They get days off after to rest.


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## theamir (Mar 11, 2015)

Yes he needs his horse to live, he's been recently injured so if his horse dies...he's going to be afoot and that would mean -he's- probably dead meat.

So, given most of the input here and on some other forums, the general consensus seems to be 3.5-4 days, given the climate, health the horse, skill of the rider and allowance for rest/water/food. That should be entirely workable for the timeline I have going, so long as I don't bore the reader with day-to-day details of said ride (blending fiction with some logical believability is going to be key here, which is why I wanted to research  ). 

I don't want to info-dump on the reader, but I'll need to make sure to impress upon the reader the difficulty of this ride and the fact if the rider were any less skilled or the horse less fit/bred for the climate - chances would be slim to none that either of them would make it to the end.


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## piglet (Oct 2, 2012)

I do not have experience with endurance, but I have LOTS of practice reading books. : )

Thank you for wanting the horse to survive. I recently had to stop reading a book because of how that author treated horses.

The fact that a horse will give you MORE than he's got, and run himself to death for you, proves that we humans need to be kind and humane,IMO.


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## Rain Shadow (May 1, 2014)

Not so much for the ride part, but is the horse a sorta character himself or herself?

As in, is he referred to as "the horse" the entire book? Or does he have a name? A description? A bit of his own personality?

If your horse has a bit of his own personality you can use that to make it less repetitive. Maybe the horse has some fear that's casually mentioned earlier. 

Say the horse was gored by a bull when he was a foal and is now scared of them, nervous and panicky near them.Later into the ride, your MC notes that his horse walks right past one without so much as looking at it, too exhausted to react. 

Or something like they stop for rest, and the horse just goes to sleep instead of eating and the horse is normally a huge pig. 

Or his normally sure-footed steed plows down a rocky hillside early on in the ride, all without taking a misstep, but later on, the horse is stumbling on much easier ground, showing his exhaustion. 

I find when reading, little details like that make the story so much more real. 

Depending on how injured the MC is. You can have him ride an few hours, then dismount, loosen the saddle, and walk his horse for 15 minutes to give his horse a bit of a break then tighten his saddle and remount and start off again. 

For your MC add the effects of the ride on him. His hands could form blisters from the leather of the reins rubbing away the skin after so long holding them. He could get saddle sores on his rear. And if he's in the saddle, riding hard for a long period, when he dismounts, he will pretty much collapse, because he's been in the same position for awhile. I'm a fairly experienced rider and after 3 hours or so if I get off, I'm holding onto my saddle for a few seconds until I can feel my legs again. 

I find as a reader, its all those little details that make a story. 

Thank so much for researching horses before you write. If I have to read another story where the horses run all day, over mountains, carrying two riders, and then are fit for battle when they arrive , I might just stab someone in the eye with a fork.

EDIT:

Oh please don't let your MC sleep in the saddle. Extremely unrealistic. Horses are lazy in nature, and the horse, as amazing as I'm sure he is, doesn't understand that this is life and death. If your rider falls asleep, his horse is going to stop, find a patch of grass, and sit there and eat until he wakes back up. That's if your rider doesn't fall out of the saddle, because staying on takes some balance. Maybe a slim chance if there are two riders and horses, one naps and the other one leads the horses. But in your case, he'd be better off stopping and sleeping on the ground and letting his horse rest at the same time. It would save him time in the long run


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## Sharpie (May 24, 2009)

Exactly what Rain Shadow said. But in addition to your legs not working when you get off, the horses get about two hands taller each time you have to get on. What was easy from the ground at the start becomes more or less crawling onto your (hopefully patient) horse from the best 'mounting block' you can find after a certain number of hours. While a good day's ride might be this MC's SOP, at the end of a trek like you propose, even he'd have trouble. We commonly curse our horse's height the further we go and swear we're getting shorter horses next time.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I'm not an endurance rider. However, I do love history, so...

During the Civil War, it was not uncommon for cavalry to cover 40-50 miles/day for 5 days in a row, then be expected to fight a battle. Those were movements involving 700-2000 horses, so they were not top endurance mounts.

Also: men DID sleep in the saddle - but they were part of a mass movement, so the horses followed each other. There are many accounts of men falling off and not waking even after hitting the ground. But a single horse wouldn't know where to go, so that is different.

IIRC, I read an account of the horses being pushed that hard for about 2 weeks straight, but it was understood that they were going to lose weight and be badly in need of rest and feed at the end. I've seen accounts of officers telling their superiors that their horses were badly exhausted from weeks of hard use and could not survive further movement without a few weeks to recover.

Also, FWIW, the average soldier entering the Army in WW2 was about 5'7" (maybe 5'8") and weighed around 145.

Footnote: John Adams, our 2nd President, complained in a letter when he was in his 70s that while he still liked exercising by riding, he was finding it hard to make 20 miles any more. John Adams was NOT known for his athletic build...








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What folks considered a normal ride in the 1800s was a bit different that what we think of as recreational riders.

Edit: one confederate artillery officer was told he was too young and weak to keep up with a cavalry unit. He offered to go get written orders from the commanding general, who was 50 miles away. He returned with the written orders less than 24 hours later. I don't know if he swapped out horses after getting the orders. He did, however, convince the cavalry unit that he was a keeper.


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## theamir (Mar 11, 2015)

Hello - busy weekend so I didn't check back until today.

This particular horse isn't a "character", no. Unfortunately the MC's actual mount he prefers (a dapple jenny mule ) is back at town and unavailable. This particular horse is on loan (though the shaman who loans it to him isn't expecting it back, necessarily - as it's an emergency situation). I do make note the MC really, really wishes he had his familiar and hardy mule to ride rather than a sleek, desert-bred horse, faster though it might be in the short term. He's fairly certain his mule would be able to out-pace the horse eventually as she'd needs less water and less rest (researched this, please correct if I'm wrong, that mules need about 5-6 hours of sleep compared to a bit longer with a horse) and does better in the hot climate, etc. But no can do. He's stuck with a loaner horse, which is, fortunately, very well bred and healthy. I'm sure he'll feel a measure of affection for it by the end and I may make some notes about the general personality of the horse, though  the mule's always first in his heart, big ears and all. 

You'll all be happy to know the horse DOES get back to its owner at the end of the book, alive and well.

The MC does, when not in a hurry, sleep in the saddle - or at least doze off now and then for a moment. That's on his mule, whom he trusts and knows though - not a borrowed horse during an emergency - no dozing or daydreaming this time in the saddle. And oh yes, by the end he'll be very sore and very, very tired. But he's from a race (near human, though not ****-sapien) of people that need, on average, about half the sleep, food and water intake as a human would, meaning can endure a bit more than a human could without getting to that "screw it I need a nap right now" point. Additionally, he's used to long hours in the saddle. By the end of the story, he'll be insisting on a few weeks' break from any scouting or riding, though.

Funny you should mention the horse "getting taller" Sharpie - since my MC has been injured, he had to have help initially hoisting up into the saddle and was thinking to himself how the horse seemed as tall as a mountain - and he wasn't sure if that was because he was used to a somewhat shorter mount or, more likely, because he's already not feeling too great himself and would prefer a long rest to a long ride. 

It should be fun. There's a little bit of action on the way as well as just enduring such a tough journey. Hopefully I'll be able to write it all well enough that it comes across as believable but with that "fiction tension" that keeps readers interested in turning the page. All of the links posted, ESPECIALLY the links to historical long rides and cavalry endurance testing, has helped a lot.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Sounds like a good book. When it's available, be sure to tell us where we can get a copy to read!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

A bit late, but here is a real life example:

"Counting Fetterman and his men Carrington's casualties in less than six months at Fort Kearny were 96 soldiers and 58 civilians dead. He still had more than 300 soldiers inside the walls of Fort Kearny.

Carrington prepared for an attack on the fort that evening after the Fetterman fight, ordering all his men to stand watch, three to a porthole. All extra ammunition and explosives were deposited in a powder magazine ringed with wagons. If the Indians attacked, the ten women and children at the fort were ordered to get into the magazine. Soldiers were told that in the last extremity they were to retreat to the magazine. Carrington would then blow up the magazine to ensure that no whites remained alive to be captured by the Indians.

That evening a civilian, John "Portugee" Philips, volunteered to carry a distress message to Fort Laramie. Carrington's message to General Cooke told of the Fetterman disaster and requested immediate reinforcements and repeating Spencer carbines. Carrington sent Phillips and another messenger, Philip Bailey, out that evening on the Fort's best remaining horses. Philips accomplished the 236 mile ride to Fort Laramie in four days. A blizzard began on December 22, and Philips rode through a foot of snow and below-zero temperatures. He never saw a single Indian during his ride. He arrived at Fort Laramie late in the evening on December 25 during a full-dress Christmas ball, and staggered, exhausted, into the party to deliver his message."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetterman_Fight#Aftermath


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