# Two Late Term Abortions in two weeks



## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

We have had two mares now abort in a span of about two weeks. One on the 8th and the other yesterday the 19th..Both are in separate pastures.. both in foal to two different sires... One was 6 months along one was 5 months along. BOTH ARE MAIDEN mares.. that is about the only thing they have in common. Both have been vaccinated. Fetus' are at USDA for testing.. Negative for EHV and negative on gross examination. Still waiting to hear back for lepto testing. 

Both mares are fully vaccinated, hay is good, water is clean, Mineral, salt, and protein tubs are available. Neither are in poor body condition. Im at a loss as to what is causing this. We have walked every inch of the pasture and nothing is amiss.. No plants they coulf of eaten to cause this. They dont have access to any trees... 

Any other breeders have this happen with maidens. I've been cringing going out there every day now as I might find another aborted foal. My heart cant take anymore. In 20 years in horses I have never had such a bad time of it. Vet has no clue what is causing it.
Foal number one.. a little boy.. the second one was a little girl


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

How sad. I'm very sorry about your foals


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Fescue toxicity? Or tent caterpillars?

"
*Mare Reproductive Loss Syndrome *

Mare reproductive loss syndrome is a term given to the syndrome that resulted in the loss of hundreds of foals (approx. 500) and spontaneous abortion in mares in central Kentucky and parts of Ohio in the spring of 2001.
Evidence points to the setae (hair-like projections) of Eastern tent caterpillars as the primary cause of the problem. They can become imbedded in the submucosal lining of the gastrointestinal tract and cause areas of inflammation and an entrance for bacteria. These bacteria can then enter the blood stream and localize in the placenta and fetus, resulting in abortion."

I'd certainly have my mares cultured and a cytology done to see if there's any kind of an infection. 

I'm sorry, it's so heartbreaking to lose foals.


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## justicehorse (Oct 17, 2012)

OMG! That is awful! So sorry! 

I just bought a maiden mare. She is 6 months along. This is my first time having a mare in foal and I am so excited. But now I'm going to be paranoid.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

That is tough. Too bad. I hope that this is an isolated thing. Sorry to hear it.

I would be interested in hearing what how the lab tests come back. What about toxins? Fescue? Aflatoxins? Feed in general?


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## Spotted (Sep 19, 2012)

So sorry for your loss 
last year I know of 5 different breeders that had horses abort, the only thing they had in commomon was the vaccinations.


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## justicehorse (Oct 17, 2012)

Could vaccinations trigger abortions in maiden mares? Which ones??


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

Oh Ghostwind, I am so so sorry for your loss. I wish I had a thought as to why, that's something we've been lucky with. I can't remember having a mare abort, we've lost a few foals and a couple of dams over the years but it was after foaling. 

Do know someone locally that had a mare abort this year, they sent her to another place that had more pasture that needed grazed, there were black walnut trees in the back of the pasture  

Sending big hugs.


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## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Fescue toxicity? Or tent caterpillars?
> 
> "
> *Mare Reproductive Loss Syndrome *
> ...


No infection in mares. no infection in placenta (placentitis) vet is at a loss


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## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

Spotted said:


> So sorry for your loss
> last year I know of 5 different breeders that had horses abort, the only thing they had in commomon was the vaccinations.


we dont vaccinate mares while pregnant. we do it while foals are on ground.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

GhostwindAppaloosa said:


> No infection in mares. no infection in placenta (placentitis) vet is at a loss


Just confirming that they had their Pneumabort vacs at 5 months? Grabbing at straws here, sometimes Mother Nature is just a Beyotch and breaks your heart, no other explanation available.


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

Pneumabort shot should have been given at 3, 5, 7 and 9 months throughout the pregnancy. If you dont vaccinate while they are pregnant, did they at least get these shots at 3 and 5 months?

Do you not give vaccines 30 days prior to foaling?

Sorry for the loss.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

CLaPorte432 said:


> Pneumabort shot should have been given at 3, 5, 7 and 9 months throughout the pregnancy. If you dont vaccinate while they are pregnant, did they at least get these shots at 3 and 5 months?
> 
> Do you not give vaccines 30 days prior to foaling?
> 
> ...


We do not do Pneumabort. I like hundreds of others had foal deformaties from the vaccine. I would rather have a spontanious abortion than a deformed baby on the ground. 

The USDA did test for EHV (what pneumabort gives immunity against) they were negative.

yes i do the vaccine 30 days prior to foaling. that is the only one i do while pregnant as at that stage they are completely formed just waiting to be born


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## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Just confirming that they had their Pneumabort vacs at 5 months? Grabbing at straws here, sometimes Mother Nature is just a Beyotch and breaks your heart, no other explanation available.


 
Vet is thinking it is mother nature at this point  Had a friend that seemed to think hickory leaves would cause abortion we do have a hickory tree outside the field.. but I have pastured pregnant mares in this field for a lot of years with no issues. We hae had some wind storms as of late that blew leaves into field... I cannot find anything thought on the net that relates hickory to abortion..


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I'm thinkin Mom Nature is just being a super b then. I'm sorry.


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## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I'm thinkin Mom Nature is just being a super b then. I'm sorry.


was hoping someone might have an AHA moment  I just hope this is it. When it was just one i thought bad luck.. when we found that other baby yesterday I was thinking that SOMETHING has to be going on. I hope we do not find anymore


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## justicehorse (Oct 17, 2012)

That is just sick and wrong of mother nature, then.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Me too. I'm hoping it's just bad luck X2 and not something more. 

Everyday just keeps re-enforcing for what a trainer of mine once said, "You can wrap them in bubble wrap and keep 'em in padded stalls and then they'll eat the padding colic and die.". Horses are the most amazingly delicate of big, tough creatures!


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## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Me too. I'm hoping it's just bad luck X2 and not something more.
> 
> Everyday just keeps re-enforcing for what a trainer of mine once said, "You can wrap them in bubble wrap and keep 'em in padded stalls and then they'll eat the padding colic and die.". Horses are the most amazingly delicate of big, tough creatures!


 
Yes very well said. I always tell people horses are constantly trying to kill themselves. Im hoping this is it. When we hear back about lepto i'll post result. Still waiting on result though vet doesnt seem to think that is it as there would be some other signs


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

Ghost, so sorry.


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## BrieannaKelly (May 31, 2012)

So sorry for your losses. Sending positive thoughts your way!


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## Ace80908 (Apr 21, 2011)

So terribly sad. I find it incredibly frustrating that the most careful, loving owners - after carefully researching crosses of mare and stud and excitedly planning each foal - suffer such losses while the most neglectful, crappy owners seem to get their skinny, elf-footed, jug headed mares to knock out baby after baby without the most basic measures of care


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## Merlot (Sep 12, 2012)

very sorry for you losses :-(


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## anniegirl (Oct 7, 2012)

Oh my goodness...that is so terrible...Im so sorry for your losses. I have a maiden mare six months along...and I know that is one of the fears we all have. Keep us posted...and praying you will not have to go through that again...love and light...


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

I'm afraid I can't offer any real ideas what might have caused them. I don't really consider those late term abortions - they are too early to really suspect fescue or endometritis, and evidently infections have been ruled out. My instinct is to suspect something they injested - could be either food or water, or some kind of stress, both of which can be difficult or next to impossible to conclusively identify...


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

So sorry......hope the others come along ok.


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## kayleeloveslaneandlana (Apr 10, 2011)

Oh no, so sorry. We lost a foal last year, he was a still born. It's such a sad thing having the loss of a foal, not to mention two.


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## Cacowgirl (Feb 19, 2011)

So sorry for your loss.


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## BarrelWannabe (Feb 8, 2011)

So sorry about your loss! 

Found the picture to be very intriguing though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tarpan (May 6, 2012)

It sounds like you've done everything you could have possibly done to prevent this. Sometimes things like this just happen... doesn't make it hurt any less though.


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## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

last test we were waiting on was lepto.. we didnt think it was this anyways but FWIW it was negative. All my pasture mares are puffy around the vuvla.. no idea whats causing it as both pastures are totally different and independant. It cant be the hay as i have other mares eating the same hay who have no puffyness. vet has no idea and is currently chalking it up to good old fashioned bad luck. I want to go sew all the mares closed!  just cringe going out there everyday as there might be another.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

I had a mare that aborted last year too. No biological reason could be found and I had all the test run by the vet.
We learn when raising livestock that nature has a way of making us feel insignificant at times.
Good luck witht the rest. The swelling you mentioned has me worried. If you find any answer or theories that are probable post them.
I think other breeders would like to know.
Sounds as if you did everything possibel. Good luck. Shalom


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

I'm so sorry  I hope for healthy foals from the rest of your mares.


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## RiddlesDarkAngel5 (Jun 2, 2009)

Im so sorry to hear about this. From your previous posts its clear you gave these foals the best possible chance at life. 
I hope your other mares continue to do well


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## WalnutPixie (Oct 15, 2010)

I'm so very sorry to hear about this, Ghostwind. That picture nearly made me cry; I could not begin to imagine how hard it would be to walk out into the pasture one morning and see _that_. I had no idea the fetuses looked so much like a horse at only five months.

Any word on how the other mares are doing? I'm worried that the silence is a bad sign. I really hope not.


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

Nitrate toxicity from hay & forages is also a consideration:shock:.
Drought, excessive soil nitrogen, shade, frost, certain herbicides, acid soils, low growing temperatures and nutrient deficiencies can contribute to high nitrate levels in plants. Stems usually have higher nitrate content than leaves.
I know in our parts we sometimes get early frosts sometimes before people finish their haying. The frost causes spikes in nitrogen levels of the alfalfa,grasses or greenfeed crops.The high nitrates can cause problems with pregnant mares:-(.


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

My mare aborted at ten months. The only thing I did different was a Pneumabort shot. Makes me wonder.


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## New_image (Oct 27, 2007)

Hoping that this is the last of it for you. How frustrating


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## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

Been very busy.. sorry i have not been back on.. my 16 year old baby brother died in a car accident last week so the foals are the least of my problems. 

we did lose another one... This one was only four months along. much smaller. Mare is an older mare who has had many foals and her loss could very well be to her age/conformation from age (might need a caslick if we want to try to get a last baby out of her) She has some very old and nonexistant lines and we have kept every baby from her in the last several years. 

Vet seems pretty confident its not the pasture as with the drought this year it is pretty much non existant. Even if there was the high nitrates as mentioned in prior (he mentioned this also) there would be no way for any one mare to digest enough to cause this to happen. Hay has been gone through very throughly prior to feeding. Not a speck of mold in it. smells fresh.. just at a loss here. With everything else going on the loss of the foals seems so small in comparison. I've brought several mares into stalls to monitor closely and the swelling isnt going down (they are on square bales now but it is essentially the same field/hay)

At THIS point... we are chalking it up to crappy luck. We also searched for signs of tent worms (only thing we couldnt test for) with no luck.


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## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

WSArabians said:


> My mare aborted at ten months. The only thing I did different was a Pneumabort shot. Makes me wonder.


I'll be honest. I personally know people who have had deformed foals from that shot.. and had abortions within a week of giving the shot. I have never given it and this is the FIRST bout of abortions I have ever had. I've been very fortunate to never lose a foal after foaling.. and these are the first aborts i've ever had the displeasure of seeing


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## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

Home Page


This site is a good testament to what vaccines can do to growing foals


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## Spotted (Sep 19, 2012)

So sorry for your losses Ghostwind.


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## New_image (Oct 27, 2007)

Oh my goodness! My heart goes out to your family. So sorry...


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## SaddleStrings (May 15, 2012)

I'm am so sorry! My thoughts and prayers go to you and your family during this time of loss. ((((((hugs))))))


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## BBBCrone (Jan 28, 2012)

Many blessings to you and your family, Ghostwind. ((( hugs )))


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## tigggr1570 (Sep 4, 2012)

so sorry


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## Super Nova (Apr 27, 2010)

Most malformation/deformation actually occur in the very early stages of development when all the limbs, organs etc are forming.....long before any shots are given.

Super Nova


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

I have only ever given my horses an annual shots pregnant or not. Last year i bought 2 arabian mares . one turned out to be pregnant. i ahd the vet take a cogins and give them their annuals before picking them up. 6 weeks later a foal was born with contracted tendons that had to be wrapped for 90 days. thankfully they are normal now. The link that was posted makes me question if the west nile shot might have been the cause. Shalom


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Super Nova said:


> Most malformation/deformation actually occur in the very early stages of development when all the limbs, organs etc are forming.....long before any shots are given.
> 
> Super Nova


Ditto this x100. People always want something to blame when things go wrong...


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## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

NdAppy said:


> Ditto this x100. People always want something to blame when things go wrong...


 
They do.. but in talking with other breeders who follow low vaccines etc.. i can tell you that i have never and others have never had issues with malformed or sick foals with this protocol. So until something happens to convince me otherwise... i'll stay this route. In small animal practice it has been shown AND proven that we overvaccinate our animals. After they have puppy shots and the 1 year booster they will keep antibodies on pretty much all the vaccines for 10-15 years. (some cases they could only follow animals up to 8 years as they passed.. but they still had immunity. why would this be any different for our horses? 

Do they shoot pregnant women with vaccines while pregnant? And think of all the meds you CANT take while pregnant but no one has an issue shoving this crap in their horses.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

NDappy i have mares that are bred for very good valuable foals. these 3 mares are the future of my breeding program. Those foals need to be sound and alive when foaled. One of these mares will be 18 when she foals and i paid a very good sum for her last year. i want to get at least 4 foals out of this mare. Losing one foal will not hurt me financially but in terms of replacing and recovering the cost of this mare it will hurt my program especially if she is hard to get back in foal next year.
i am responsible for the welfare of these horses and i take this very seriously.
i am not being an alarmist but i will be informed and make my decision 
accordingly. 
Asking question is not blaming anyone it is simply being informed. Shalom


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

West Nile Virus vaccine could certainly be taken out of one's regimen if there were problems with it unless you are in a high risk area. If equine rhinopneumonitis were causing abortions, then it would be a necessary vaccine. Vaccine protocols will differ for different situations. For example, horses that are totally isolated may not need much beyond tetanus and eastern equine encephalitis (or which ever one is common in their area.) I would think that your veterinarian will be able to determine whether rhinopneumonitis caused your problem, and if it did, recommend the best course of action in the future.

I like to give tetanus vaccine in the last month of pregnancy because it can protect both the mare and the foal.


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## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

Celeste said:


> West Nile Virus vaccine could certainly be taken out of one's regimen if there were problems with it unless you are in a high risk area. If equine rhinopneumonitis were causing abortions, then it would be a necessary vaccine. Vaccine protocols will differ for different situations. For example, horses that are totally isolated may not need much beyond tetanus and eastern equine encephalitis (or which ever one is common in their area.) I would think that your veterinarian will be able to determine whether rhinopneumonitis caused your problem, and if it did, recommend the best course of action in the future.
> 
> I like to give tetanus vaccine in the last month of pregnancy because it can protect both the mare and the foal.


The fetus' were both negative on the gross necropsy and negative for both lepto and rhino. no bacterial infections nothing. vet is chalking it up to REALLY bad luck


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## MyLittlePonies (Mar 15, 2011)

GhostwindAppaloosa said:


> The fetus' were both negative on the gross necropsy and negative for both lepto and rhino. no bacterial infections nothing. vet is chalking it up to REALLY bad luck


So sorry to hear that....


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

GhostwindAppaloosa said:


> Home Page
> 
> 
> This site is a good testament to what vaccines can do to growing foals


I absolutely will not give WNV for this reason. I had investigated studies when it first became popular and with my medical background, the reports sent up too many flares. Vaccines are money makers for these companies. Pneoumabort is another with too many dead foals associated with it.
I am so sorry about your mares GWA. It does sound like some kind of exposure, whether internal or external. I can't guess what, but I hope they find it. The vulvular swelling is a very disturbing sign- reflecting a toxin of some sort. Wish I knew...
So sad..


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Ghostwind, sorry that you could not get any answers about why the mares aborted. Now you have no way of preventing future problems. Goodluck. Shalom


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