# Critique me jumping



## ErikaLynn (Aug 3, 2010)

Here are some videos of me schooling some jumps. Im riding a 7 year old thoroughbred he's still green. Please critique me, and you can critique the horse too, but he isn't mine. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgPI8DNaXjg&feature=youtube_gdata_player

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=937pUGE314o&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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## ErikaLynn (Aug 3, 2010)

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## UnrealJumper (Nov 24, 2009)

I wont critique the horse. 
As for you:
- Work on calming your body down
- Leg position (no stirrups! make it stay where it needs to be)
- Calm your hands down. (Elbows close to your sides, thumbs on top) I noticed in a few places that you overuse your hands where you could use leg or seat instead. Keep them low and close to the horses neck
- Sit on your bum, shoulders back! I also noticed in a few places you hover in half seat or sit really far back and pull. 

Looks like you're on the right track!  
Anyone feel free to correct my critique since I don't do this too often.


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## ErikaLynn (Aug 3, 2010)

Thank you. Yeah, I kind of need to sit and pull him because he's pretty quick and it takes a lot to slow him down. You'll pull to slow him down, and then after like 20 pulls he'll decide to slow down. We're working on that, he's actually starting to understand when I say whoa it means slow down. 

Thanks again.
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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

ErikaLynn said:


> Thank you. Yeah, I kind of need to sit and pull him because he's pretty quick and it takes a lot to slow him down. You'll pull to slow him down, and then after like 20 pulls he'll decide to slow down. We're working on that, he's actually starting to understand when I say whoa it means slow down.
> 
> Thanks again.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think you did really good, especially being on a green horse! Did you ride in a double bridle? 

It would help him (and you!!) so much to learn about half halts.. there were a few spots where I saw he was kind of just going without being completely ready for the jump or the corner or the change of rein. 

Also keeping your seat in during the canter on the flat parts. I know it must be hard, especially him just going and going.

Seriously though, I was very impressed with how you handled things. I would've not be nearly as organized :lol:


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## ErikaLynn (Aug 3, 2010)

Skyseternalangel said:


> I think you did really good, especially being on a green horse! Did you ride in a double bridle?
> 
> It would help him (and you!!) so much to learn about half halts.. there were a few spots where I saw he was kind of just going without being completely ready for the jump or the corner or the change of rein.
> 
> ...


Thank you for saying such nice things. 

I've been working on getting him to listen better. Now, sometimes, it takes him too long to listen. It's like you'll ask him to slow down and it takes him a couple seconds for him to realize what you're asking. He's gotten a lot better though. But I agree half halts will help. 

I'm not using a double bridle. It's just a jointed Pelham bit. I normally don't ride green horses in bits like that, but he's older and at this point in his training he works real well in it.
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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

ErikaLynn said:


> Thank you for saying such nice things.
> 
> I've been working on getting him to listen better. Now, sometimes, it takes him too long to listen. It's like you'll ask him to slow down and it takes him a couple seconds for him to realize what you're asking. He's gotten a lot better though. But I agree half halts will help.
> 
> ...


Oh okay. I don't have any experience with Pelham bits nor double bridles so I thought I'd ask 

You're welcome  

As for the slowing down.. mine is the same way. For him it's because he hasn't linked dropping and stopping all motion of my seat.. then closing the reins-- as stopping  Just keep it up with him. Maybe take him off of the jumps for a few lessons and work specifically on w/t/c transitions. I think it would help if his trot was more put together, that'll help him stay at a softer more put together canter. Which will make it much easier for you to keep up with him.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

ErikaLynn said:


> Here are some videos of me schooling some jumps. Im riding a 7 year old thoroughbred he's still green. Please critique me, and you can critique the horse too, but he isn't mine.
> 
> MVI_0215.MOV - YouTube
> 
> ...



This horse needs a lot more work on the flat and is not ready for a pelham bit.

Also if the horse is far enough along to be jumping that height and the use of the pelham...the martingale should not be needed.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

If you are going to use a Pelham, you need to learn how to use the reins properly. You do not use them both at the same time, you need to learn how to activate the bottom rein when needed. In the second video, you are in his face a lot. I don't like that you are using a standing martingale and a Pelham together. 

Going back to* dressage* will help with the balancing and the rhythm and control. 

You slow your horse down by riding back to front, not front to back. Use your body properly, your core, slow your seat down, relax *you are quite stiff* - my advice is to start taking dressage lessons. Working on getting him under you, rounder (meaning lifting his back up into your seat) by using your body correctly. 

*Jumping is dressage with speed bumps.*


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## ErikaLynn (Aug 3, 2010)

Thanks for the advice!!

I do need a martingale for him. If he doesn't wear one his head is on the air and he doesn't listen at all. So I'll probably continue riding him with it until I feel it's safe enough to take it off. The jumps are only 2'3 so they aren't high at all. 

I'm sure I would for sure benefit from dressage lessons, but funds are low. So that won't be happening either. Maybe you could give me pointers to try?

Thanks again
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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

ErikaLynn said:


> Thanks for the advice!!
> 
> I do need a martingale for him. If he doesn't wear one his head is on the air and he doesn't listen at all. So I'll probably continue riding him with it until I feel it's safe enough to take it off. The jumps are only 2'3 so they aren't high at all.
> 
> ...



One thing that I noticed is you said you have to give him '20 pulls' before he listens and slows down.. now, if the ground work was correct you should only have to ask once, maybe remind again- not 20 times.

I am no expert, and I'm not suggesting you shorten the martingale to bring his head in, but his head still looks really high and the martignale ineffective...


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

ErikaLynn said:


> Thanks for the advice!!
> 
> I do need a martingale for him. If he doesn't wear one his head is on the air and he doesn't listen at all. So I'll probably continue riding him with it until I feel it's safe enough to take it off. The jumps are only 2'3 so they aren't high at all.
> 
> ...



If he isn't safe then he should not be jumping. The flat work is way more important than the jumping and maybe your dollars would be better spent getting the control there before the jumping is continued.

I would also point out that a pelham carries a lot of power..........so if that bit requires so many pulls to get him to listen then you ARE on the wrong track jumping.


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## ErikaLynn (Aug 3, 2010)

Spyder said:


> If he isn't safe then he should not be jumping. The flat work is way more important than the jumping and maybe your dollars would be better spent getting the control there before the jumping is continued.
> 
> I would also point out that a pelham carries a lot of power..........so if that bit requires so many pulls to get him to listen then you ARE on the wrong track jumping.


 I'm not paying for anything. But ok I'll work on more flat. 
Thanks.
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## Oxer (Jul 9, 2010)

Allison Finch posted something once: "soft hands, soft horse" 
I repeat this in my head a few times when i feel my horse build and build and BUILD... which used to result in me pulling and pulling and PULLING on his face. He would get upset and literally run away from my pulling. So i started to ride with a nice, even feel on his mouth, pushing him up into my hands (back to front, instead of just riding the horses face). He goes in a plain snaffle now, where as before i was riding him in a corkscrew gag! My horse is notoriously hot and i have worked a lot to get him where he is, but it's something to think about... when you ride quiet and confident, then the horse will be less likely to build, grab hold of the bit, and take you for a drag! 

All of that being said, since this isn't your horse and you're not invested in it's training i would say that you ride pretty well! Horses like these are great to learn from, as with most lesson horses and such, they tend to teach us how to ride instead of just piloting from the comforts of our saddles!


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## ErikaLynn (Aug 3, 2010)

Oxer said:


> Allison Finch posted something once: "soft hands, soft horse"
> I repeat this in my head a few times when i feel my horse build and build and BUILD... which used to result in me pulling and pulling and PULLING on his face. He would get upset and literally run away from my pulling. So i started to ride with a nice, even feel on his mouth, pushing him up into my hands (back to front, instead of just riding the horses face). He goes in a plain snaffle now, where as before i was riding him in a corkscrew gag! My horse is notoriously hot and i have worked a lot to get him where he is, but it's something to think about... when you ride quiet and confident, then the horse will be less likely to build, grab hold of the bit, and take you for a drag!
> 
> All of that being said, since this isn't your horse and you're not invested in it's training i would say that you ride pretty well! Horses like these are great to learn from, as with most lesson horses and such, they tend to teach us how to ride instead of just piloting from the comforts of our saddles!


Thanks. That's a great tid bit to know. He is the type of horse that will teach you. I don't know how to ride from back to front. That must be my problem. I'll ask someone about it. 
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## ErikaLynn (Aug 3, 2010)

DuffyDuck said:


> One thing that I noticed is you said you have to give him '20 pulls' before he listens and slows down.. now, if the ground work was correct you should only have to ask once, maybe remind again- not 20 times.
> 
> I am no expert, and I'm not suggesting you shorten the martingale to bring his head in, but his head still looks really high and the martignale ineffective...


20 times is an exaggeration. Sorry, I exaggerate a lot. It's more like 5. Still not perfect I know. I'm working on it

I really don't want to tighten his martingale. I'm not really into forcing his head down. I use it more so he can't toss his head up and avoid the bit, and crash. And so he doesn't smack me in the face accidentally if he takes a wrong step etc.
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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

ErikaLynn said:


> 20 times is an exaggeration. Sorry, I exaggerate a lot. It's more like 5. Still not perfect I know. I'm working on it
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


See you should not have to pull back at all.

This video is not up for critique but this would be a good example of riding in a pelham over jumps...allowing the horse forward...easy to ride in between and no pulling required and no martingale needed. This is where you need to get the horse and only flatwork can get you there.

BluestarFarm002.mp4 video by Cyberling - Photobucket


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## Oxer (Jul 9, 2010)

Spyder, that horse is to die for!! What a jump!!


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Oxer said:


> Spyder, that horse is to die for!! What a jump!!



The jumps were too small...LOL


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## Eliz (Jun 16, 2010)

Most definitely use your body more. Your hands should actually be an "if all else fails" sort of thing. 

I know-- I am working on that now. A good excersize is to start at the trot... Adjust your posting to adjust the speed. Post fast to get a racy trot... then post sloooowwweerrr until you come to a walk. Then, that should get you into the habit of using your body to slow the horse rather then just thinking "half halt with hands" all the time. 

The horse does look like a handful, but over all I think you handled him well. I like your heel and leg


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## ErikaLynn (Aug 3, 2010)

Spyder said:


> See you should not have to pull back at all.
> 
> This video is not up for critique but this would be a good example of riding in a pelham over jumps...allowing the horse forward...easy to ride in between and no pulling required and no martingale needed. This is where you need to get the horse and only flatwork can get you there.
> 
> BluestarFarm002.mp4 video by Cyberling - Photobucket


How do I slow down with out pulling back? Legs go, pull stop. That's what I was always taught. Why does it have to be anymore complicated?

If I'm riding on the flat and the horse is getting too fast. I stop, back up a step, get the horse back to me, then continue on my way. Then repeat until he understands that I want him to slow. . 

It's hard to stop in the middle of course.

I'm not completely dumb and have some clue of what I'm doing. He works his best, as of now, in a Pelham and martingale. I don't know why I would need to change that. 

But I agree more flat work. I'll for sure work on that. Thanks again!
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## ErikaLynn (Aug 3, 2010)

ErikaLynn said:


> How do I slow down with out pulling back? Legs go, pull stop. That's what I was always taught. Why does it have to be anymore complicated?
> 
> If I'm riding on the flat and the horse is getting too fast. I stop, back up a step, get the horse back to me, then continue on my way. Then repeat until he understands that I want him to slow. .
> 
> ...


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Today I relearned the importance of WEIGHT down the inside of the legs and into the seat. Putting more weight into those 2 areas will slow the horse down because it makes it harder for them to open and close those shoulders. That is why when you post slow, your horse begins to slow. At the canter, you need to drive the horse forward with your hips. If you want to slow the canter, put more weight down the sides of your legs and slow the motion of your hips. 

But like I said before, you look great riding such a green horse! It's hard to relax and flow with the horse when the horse itself is stiff and tense.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

I think you need to discuss different options with your parents or whomever is funding the lesson bill. Shame on your Coach for not targeting the issues you obviously have at this point in time, instead of allowing you two to continue on the path you are on right now. 

I'd be looking for a dressage coach, or a more competent jumping coach who firmly believes that dressage is an extension of your jumping.


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## ErikaLynn (Aug 3, 2010)

MIEventer said:


> I think you need to discuss different options with your parents or whomever is funding the lesson bill. Shame on your Coach for not targeting the issues you obviously have at this point in time, instead of allowing you two to continue on the path you are on right now.
> 
> I'd be looking for a dressage coach, or a more competent jumping coach who firmly believes that dressage is an extension of your jumping.


I wish my parents still pay for my lessons, but considering I have a full time job and make my own money. I doubt they would do that. It would be nice though. And I don't even have a coach.

Thanks for assuming things.
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## jumanji321 (Dec 1, 2010)

It gets more complicated because if you ever enter an equitation on the flat class, they will judge your stop. If you have to haul on your horse to stop, you will be docked serious marks. Honestly, it sounds like you are getting frustrated with everyone's answers as your replies appear to be getting a little hostile.


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## ErikaLynn (Aug 3, 2010)

jumanji321 said:


> It gets more complicated because if you ever enter an equitation on the flat class, they will judge your stop. If you have to haul on your horse to stop, you will be docked serious marks. Honestly, it sounds like you are getting frustrated with everyone's answers as your replies appear to be getting a little hostile.


Oh no I'm not getting frustrated at all. Everyone's advice is helpful, I'm still trying to understand how to work him from back to front, and stop without pulling. But I can ask someone that knows what they're talking about and get their opinion also. Someone that knows the horse could definitely help me. 

I would never take this horse into an equitation class.
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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

to teach them to stop well i do this. hold your hand [dont pull back or give just keep them in one spot] close your thigh lightly, and then increase if he doesnt stop. if he hasnt stopped after a few strides haul on him until he stops. once he stands give him a pat and go back to work. after doing this a few times he should stop pretty well off your thigh, not that you wont have to remind him from time to time. i would try to get him into a plain snaffle asap. young horses can be tough, especially when you dont have a trainer to work with !


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

gypsygirl said:


> if he hasnt stopped after a few strides haul on him until he stops.



No...if he hasn't stopped after the first "nice" request you turn him into an ever smaller circle until he HAS to stop. Pat him...go forward and ask nicely again...failure results in more very small circles or tight "U" turns. This way the horse learns this....................

Don't stop==more harder work that will occur EVERY time he fails to do as requested.

Result is no where have you used the bit beyond the softest request to request something.


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## ErikaLynn (Aug 3, 2010)

Thanks. I'll try both ways and see what works for him
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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

i guess we just have different ways of doing things spyder. in my experience, if you clean out their teeth a few times and then release when you get the response you want, you will get a very light horse. the biggest thing is to give the horse a progression, you cant just haul on them, you have to start soft, you dont want them to become afraid of making mistakes.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

ErikaLynn said:


> Thanks. I'll try both ways and see what works for him
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



You NEVER EVER haul or pull until the horse stops and this should never be in your arsenal of training techniques.

Riding is communication...hauling is *SHOUTING *and you will get shouted back at until one party shouts loud enough. In the end no party is happy.


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

we will have to agree to disagree.


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## ErikaLynn (Aug 3, 2010)

Spyder said:


> You NEVER EVER haul or pull until the horse stops and this should never be in your arsenal of training techniques.
> 
> Riding is communication...hauling is *SHOUTING *and you will get shouted back at until one party shouts loud enough. In the end no party is happy.


I don't think she means haul until my arms fall off. I though she meant pull back to make him stop. Make him do what I want. Circling does work, but circling and circling until I'm dizzy teaches nothing also. Everyone has their own opinion on how to do something. That's why I asked for a critique so I can learn. That way I can try different things people suggest.
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## Rule of Reason (Feb 11, 2010)

I don't know how to ride from back to front. 

_Riding back to front means getting the horse to balance himself and use his hindquarters, which gives you a lot better control of his movement. "How" is learned through lots of lessons, but comes down to proper use of your own body. You use your weight and subtle body positioning to influence the horse, instead of just fighting with his mouth all the time._
___________________________


Legs go, pull stop. That's what I was always taught. Why does it have to be anymore complicated? _Because you're not a beginner any more. You both need and are ready for more sophisticated control of your horse._

If I'm riding on the flat and the horse is getting too fast. I stop, back up a step, get the horse back to me, then continue on my way. _By using half-halts, you will not have to stop to get the horse back to you. You'll sink your weight down (and you can do this even in half seat, once you've gotten the hang of it) and the horse will immediately hesitate slightly. That's why they call it a "half" halt._ Then repeat until he understands that I want him to slow. . _Using half-halts, you should not have to repeat over and over. It's actually easier for the horse to understand, because you're helping him to rebalance himself._

It's hard to stop in the middle of course. _You don't need to stop. You need to half-halt (rebalance)._

_________________


I though she meant pull back to make him stop. Make him do what I want. _But pulling back is not really so effective, is it? Because you're having to do it over and over._ _Learn the half-halt, teach it to him, and you'll have much better control over his body._ Circling does work, but circling and circling until I'm dizzy teaches nothing. _Circling works as a punishment, but you want to get so you don't even need to punish because the horse isn't doing anything wrong._

___________________


Some of your posts have sounded "short" or abrupt. Maybe this is just because you're using a cellphone and are trying to save keystrokes. But if you are a little annoyed, please keep in mind that you did ask for advice, and if you look at it, everyone is saying the same thing, that you're overusing your reins and need to be more sophisticated. At your level of riding, the statements that I picked out are red flags. You need to go beyond this black-and-white understanding of riding in order to progress.

To me your horse looks fast and unbalanced. Every turn is motorcycled and every transition is running. The horse is bent to the outside. All this can be fixed quite easily through some basic dressage, and then you would have an absolutely lovely jumping experience. It would be a great investment in your riding future to save up for some dressage lessons. You wouldn't have to stop jumping—you could do them both at the same time. Better yet, if there's an eventing instructor in your area, they do both. And you could be jumping on a cross country course! So much fun. .. . 

I think you're a good rider, but just need more knowledge about the next level of equitation.


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## ErikaLynn (Aug 3, 2010)

Thank you. No I'm not annoyed at all. I understand everyone is trying to help. I do appreciate that. Even though I don't have a "trainer" I do go to clinics, sometimes I ride in them sometimes I audit. And I also learn from watching other people. And my sister and I help each other out. Because its a lot easier to see what someone is doing on the ground rather then just riding. So, I'm not completely riding in the dark. I have some type of direction. Im always willing to learn. That's why I really appreciate when someone explains to me what to do. Rather then just saying what's wrong then not telling me how to fix it. I also took lessons until I was 18, so I'm not self taught. I just haven't had consistent lessons in 7 years. 

I understand half halts will help, I know what they are and what they do, but I'm clueless on how to do it. I know it's difficult to explain on a forum. I have people I can ask so I can get better clarification. 

I also ride about 3 different horses a week. They're all much younger then this horse and a lot greener. So it's nice to get on a horse that has some type of clue, and a horse that I can get more technical with. 3-4 year olds I can't really make anything too complicated with. So that's why I'm always trying to ride in the simplest way. But now that I know with him I can start applying some different commands and he won't get real confused like the younger horses. 

This video is about a month old. And I've ridden this horse a few times after this. I'm doing gymnastics with him and he responds to it well. It lets him figure out his footing better and keeps him from getting too quick and it gives me a chance to perfect my position. 

So, I'll do more flat work with him, and perfect the half halt. Which will definitely come in handy with every horse I ride. 

Thanks
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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

ErikaLynn said:


> I understand half halts will help, I know what they are and what they do, but I'm clueless on how to do it.



Unfortunately this is not a sticky where it could be more easily seen but the half halt is explained in detail..as well as it effects on the horse.

http://www.horseforum.com/dressage/mysterious-half-halt-causes-effects-92170/


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

ErikaLynn said:


> 20 times is an exaggeration. Sorry, I exaggerate a lot. It's more like 5. Still not perfect I know. I'm working on it
> 
> I really don't want to tighten his martingale. I'm not really into forcing his head down. I use it more so he can't toss his head up and avoid the bit, and crash. And so he doesn't smack me in the face accidentally if he takes a wrong step etc.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Honestly.. I'm thinking for your safety here, and the future for you jumping this horse. 

Its better to get this sorted on the flat before you add the jumps... if you don't, what happens at a competition, or the next height up? If you crack it now, you'll have less problems later on. Tackle one before approaching another.

Kudos to you, I'm too scared to jump- but thats because I have been put on horse's that are trained to go, not listen and bolt off.

Honestly though, work on your flat. Lots of transition work.

I wasn't suggesting tightening the martingale, its a false aid and I honestly believe if you get the flatwork right, soft hands, your horse listening you won't need it, and you'll be able to jump better, faster and higher!


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## ErikaLynn (Aug 3, 2010)

Spyder said:


> Unfortunately this is not a sticky where it could be more easily seen but the half halt is explained in detail..as well as it effects on the horse.
> 
> http://www.horseforum.com/dressage/mysterious-half-halt-causes-effects-92170/


I saw this video on YouTube. Is it correct? I think it explains what a half halt is well and it's easy for me to understand

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PNXXo5TFV4&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

gypsygirl said:


> to teach them to stop well i do this. hold your hand [dont pull back or give just keep them in one spot] close your thigh lightly, and then increase if he doesnt stop. if he hasnt stopped after a few strides haul on him until he stops. once he stands give him a pat and go back to work. after doing this a few times he should stop pretty well off your thigh, not that you wont have to remind him from time to time. i would try to get him into a plain snaffle asap. young horses can be tough, especially when you dont have a trainer to work with !



I don't know which horse's you have ridden but that is completely wrong, and a horrid way to teach. The bit against the teeth- that would be like me whacking a spoon off yours. Not nice.

To teach a horse to come back, you need to use half halts. This will also help to encourage the horse to work from behind and in to a relaxed outline. Tugging on a mouth will not keep a horse calm.

Secondly, what then happens if the horse doesn't relent? If you need to regain contact, you give and take with the reins- half halt. That way the horse can't literally get the bit between its teeth and tank.

Thirdly if you look at the 'general' method of training a horse to come back, listen, slow down or stop... you'll see if you do it right it works 100% without damaging your horse...


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

ErikaLynn said:


> I saw this video on YouTube. Is it correct? I think it explains what a half halt is well and it's easy for me to understand
> 
> Dressage Teacher Jane Savoie and The "Connecting Half Halt" - YouTube
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I have no idea what she is saying as I have no sound on my computer but she is a good authority to learn from. Certainly better that pulling back on the reins which I KNOW she would have a heart attack seeing anyone doing that sort of crude training method.


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## ErikaLynn (Aug 3, 2010)

Spyder said:


> I have no idea what she is saying as I have no sound on my computer but she is a good authority to learn from. Certainly better that pulling back on the reins which I KNOW she would have a heart attack seeing anyone doing that sort of crude training method.


Oh, haha. What she says makes sense to me. Instead of pulling she said close your hand.
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## UnrealJumper (Nov 24, 2009)

I haven't read all the posts, but hauling is still hauling and it shouldn't be done! I've made probably every mistake there is to make in this sport and someone I met really did open my eyes to just about everything! MIEventer, Spyder and a few others on here definitely know what they're talking about and their advice can be taken seriously and applied to anyone's riding. 

If you were taught that pulling = stop and leg = go then you haven't ridden with many knowledgeable people. You can learn a lot from people online, but it's worth it to invest in some lessons with a reliable coach. Even if its only once a month. At least you'd be learning *something*.


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## ErikaLynn (Aug 3, 2010)

I'm now officially confused. Pull doesn't mean stop and leg doesn't mean go? How do I get my horse to move without leg? And how do the stop with no hands?

Everyone gave great advice. Unrealjumper, I'm very sorry, but your advice is confusing to me. I am also very offended that you can say I rode with people that were not knowledgeable. You don't know what trainers I've ridden with. And you are implying that I'm stupid about riding and that I haven't learned a thing over the course of my riding. Its ok though, you don't personally know me, I understand that you were trying to be helpful. Even if you didn't mean it I'm still offended by it




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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

ErikaLynn said:


> I'm now officially confused. Pull doesn't mean stop and leg doesn't mean go? How do I get my horse to move without leg? And how do the stop with no hands?
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The basic explanation is you stop (and control) the horse with your seat bones. First it's seat, then come legs.. THEN the hands. So if you want to stop.. you first stop all movement in your hips, then you drop all your weight down into your seat and down the insides of your legs, then you close your fingers on the reins. 

To go, you shift your weight by sitting up tall on your seat bones instead of bearing all weight down into the stirrups, push with your hips and then add leg.

Then half halts come in and shifting weight and leg position to do certain movements.. but the basics lies in the 1. seat 2. leg then 3. hands


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Please invest in lessons from an educated, experienced and knowledgeable rider. 

I greatly disagree with hauling on the horses mouth. Poor animal.


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## Oxer (Jul 9, 2010)

UnrealJumper said:


> If you were taught that pulling = stop and leg = go then you haven't ridden with many knowledgeable people.


i would agree here to some degree. 
It is a pretty elementary way of thinking... especially for someone whom is clearly a solid rider, and whom is jumping. 
When a horse is light and responsive, you can literally just lift your seat a bit (becoming lighter in the saddle), and give the whisper of a cue to your horse that you're asking for an upward transition. Likewise, being able to sit a bit deeper (or half halt) and get the downward transition. However, that connection takes time. Good trainer or not, getting a horse responsive and light to the aides is *work*!!


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## justjump (Jan 18, 2011)

After reading all the posts, I think you need to go back to the flat with this horse, regardless. I used to jump 3-4 times a week with barely any flat, and literally did not make any progress with my horse. For the past year, I've been going back to the flat, working on my leg and body position and also working on the basics with my horse. With this, my horse has been jumping more square, he's been a lot softer in his face, and is as solid as a rock with his lead changes and consistency. With the basics, you can never go wrong! 

Get your sister to video you regularly. Work on the flat! Do your homework with not only yourself but the horse you ride. Are there any local trainers in the area that could maybe come out and give you a lesson? Sometimes you need a different voice and a new set of eyes to really get where you need to go!

I wish you luck in your future endeavors ! You seem very committed and willing to learn. Remember, nobody is perfect!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

i just want to point out that in the method i was talking about you DO NOT pull on them unless they dont listen to your strong half halt, you hold your hand in one place and do not move it. pulling is NOT the first place you go, but what you do when they will not stop.


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

DuffyDuck said:


> I don't know which horse's you have ridden but that is completely wrong, and a horrid way to teach. The bit against the teeth- that would be like me whacking a spoon off yours. Not nice.
> 
> To teach a horse to come back, you need to use half halts. This will also help to encourage the horse to work from behind and in to a relaxed outline. Tugging on a mouth will not keep a horse calm.
> 
> ...


is what i explained at the beginning of my post_ not _a half halt ? both my experienced trainers teach this way with runaways.

i ask everyone who is against pulling on a horse for any reason - have you ever done a pully-rein ??


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

gypsygirl said:


> is what i explained at the beginning of my post_ not _a half halt ? both my experienced trainers teach this way with runaways.
> 
> i ask everyone who is against pulling on a horse for any reason - have you ever done a pully-rein ??



The thing is that is NOT the issue that people are posting in opposition to what you said.

Just as a reminder of what you posted here is what it was...........



gypsygirl said:


> if he hasnt stopped after a few strides haul on him until he stops.!


The suggestion in this post is that if in a few step he hasn't stopped then just haul on him and you went further on in another post that this is what your instructor told you.

I HAVE done a pully rein..._but it was on a true bolter and runaway_ ( in my early riding days) but where there is no suggestion the horse is a runaway or bolter then this action is extreme. Many horse may take steps before they listen. These are the younger ones or incorrectly trained ones. They are not bolters.

Using your method on this type of horse is likely to *CREATE* a bolter or runaway as they start to ignore such rough handling over time.

The OP never suggested her horse was a runaway but that he took his sweet time coming back to her....and that the horse is young.

The fact that the owner has both a martingale and pelhem on the horse ( kinda overkill) and it is a green horse tells me the horse is very poorly trained...not a runaway. My response was based on that assumption and the advise I gave her will in time fix this problem (assuming the owner doesn't get on the horse and start hauling on it).


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

i dont say go off and haul on it, you have a build up to it. ask, tell, demand -with your thigh, if hes still going engage hand as hard as neccesary. like buck brannaman says, its not how hard you pull, its how you get there. im NOT saying jab your horse in the mouth, but you might have to have a steady pull pretty darn hard. its exactly like getting a horse to move off of your leg, ask, tell, demand - then whip/crop/spur.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

gypsygirl said:


> i dont say go off and haul on it, you have a build up to it. ask, tell, demand -with your thigh, if hes still going engage hand as hard as neccesary. like buck brannaman says, its not how hard you pull, its how you get there. im NOT saying jab your horse in the mouth, but you might have to have a steady pull pretty darn hard. its exactly like getting a horse to move off of your leg, ask, tell, demand - then whip/crop/spur.


See the difference is to me is that if the horse does not obey just react with a stronger aid. This ok up to a point( making the aid clearer..NOT stronger) but in the end defeats the purpose of a relationship between the horse and rider.

It is like building a cabinet from a diagram. You can't get the screw to work...so just take a hammer and bang it in. So yes it is in but not in the way it was designed to be.

A GOOD horseman will seek a better way and redirect the horse's energy that will serve his purpose without the need for an overly physical response.

A constant change of direction will do just that. The horse will lose speed and energy with each turn and the upper hand will be relinquished to the rider. Over time just a slight squeeze ( like in Savoie's video) will be all that is needed._ In the video I posted that horse could be stopped dead at any time in that course just by sitting back_...no hauling was ever used in its training..EVER.


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## UnrealJumper (Nov 24, 2009)

Haven't read all the recent posts. 
Thought I'd clarify what I meant to the OP. I should have said that stoping/going forward isnt as simple as *just* plain ol' hand and leg. For the longest time I thought that was how a horse worked... I was wrong.

Sorry for offending you, but it's just my opinion. If no one has taught you the correct way to ask for a hault (aka not hauling on a horses face) and they have continued to let you ride in that manor then I have to assume they weren't too knowledgeable.


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

i can get my horse to stop that lightly too. she is not backed off of the bit or scared of my hand _at all._ if you want to do your turning way, that is fine. we will have to agree to disagree.

i also ride her in a happy mouth bit with no martingale, no extra 'gimmicks'


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## AllyKatSki1 (Apr 2, 2008)

gypsygirl said:


> i guess we just have different ways of doing things spyder. in my experience, if you clean out their teeth a few times and then release when you get the response you want, you will get a very light horse. the biggest thing is to give the horse a progression, you cant just haul on them, you have to start soft, you dont want them to become afraid of making mistakes.


I would just like to point out if you cleaned out my horses teeth, you'd end up with a uptight, high headed horse and if your lucky you might stay in the saddle. That is no way to go about things. Just saying.
Goodluck with your horse OP, hes gonna be a nice one with hard work!


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## kcscott85 (Jul 28, 2010)

I just have to add my two cents in here, and wow...lots of differences in opinion. I, too, was taught when I started lessons (at age 4), that leg=go and hands=stop. However, when I began jumping and then switched to another farm, my instructor was horrified and wouldn't let me jump for 6 months until I could do all flat work with no reins. After I began jumping again, I couldn't progress until I could do a course with no reins (and sometimes no stirrups...omg). I thought I was just #1 because I could do that. I was very successful on the hunter A circuit. 

Then I switched to eventing and found that I knew nothing at all. I wasn't allowed on an xc course until I completed a year of dressage...and what a difference that year made! MIEventer is completely right when she says that jumping is dressage with speed bumps. It's really the foundation of any type of riding and all disciplines could benefit from at least knowing the basics. 

I see it all the time...if a horse isn't easily controlled in one bit...get a harsher one, then a harsher one, then a harsher one. If it's head is up, tie it down or use draw reins to force it down. That's not true training, those are band-aids for poor training. Any horse should be able to be controlled in a snaffle. Now, sometimes for certain occasions (showing, hunting, etc), something stronger may be needed. But certainly not for everyday use. The horse will just come to accept that pain and then learn to ignore it. 

If you are training this horse for someone else (since you said it's not yours, I'm assuming, so please correct me if I'm wrong), then you are not doing the owners justice. At this rate, this horse will never be able to be *safely* ridden above 3' and eventually you will find you need to use more and more force to get what you want. 

Heed Spyder's advice, read everything you can on dressage training, go to dressage clinics, and, if you can, take a dressage lesson once a month...whatever. It will greatly improve your effectiveness in training and you will find you are more secure in your riding.


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## tlkng1 (Dec 14, 2011)

This may have been answered but I didn't go through all of the responses 

Riding back to front means getting impulsion from behind and using your hands as a stopping point. Riding front to back means using your hands as the impulsion (pulling to slow, easing for speed) which ends up with the horse being strung out and strong. 

As others have indicated, flatwork/dressage work is needed here. Sit deep in the saddle, like you would for a sitting trot, and set your hands. By setting I mean follow the motion of the gait but don't allow slack in the reins. Use your leg to encourage the horse forward so he gets his back legs under him. Think of it like using your leg to push him up into the bridle, then, using the bridle as a stop..in other words, he can go as far as the bridle allows but no further. This also results in encouraging him to round his back more and relax his poll in order to maintain the position.

You will definitely feel the difference as it will "lift" the front end and make him feel lighter.

This horse isn't paying any attention to that Pelham. My horse would build in speed over a course of jumps and got very hard to handle towards the end of a course when jumped in a simple snaffle..even a martingale added didn't work. The trainer put him in a pelham and he definitely paid better attention. He would still build to a certain extent but he came back much easier. Instead of pulling all the way into and out of a turn, a gentle single half halt was all that was needed to rebalance. In his case he was just an excited jumper, safe but loved to jump.


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