# True Beginners Jumping (WARNING rant included)



## Sghorselover (Oct 19, 2009)

There is this huge barn at my stables called Bridges and I promise after 3 riding lessons all the kids are jumping!!!! They have to have a person running next to them while trotting and they can barley post and have no control but then they jump! Like really I think this is VERY unsafe! The only reason this bugs me so much is because the they are a huge barn like 50 horses and 200 students! I know my barn is big ( 100 horses a lot of riders) But we are not a beginner barn at all we all can strongly w/t/c/hand gallop and jump but while i will be riding in the jumping arena the head trainer of that other barn will come up to us and make us move to the rail and halt so her kids can ride. And then when they jump ohhhh we just leave horses running every where kids falling off and the trainer is yelling at them! [RANT OVER]

I have been riding 2 years and I just started jumping courses and IT just bugs me a lot when i see kids that still need to work on the basics and they are jumping 2"6'.


Does any one else agree with me???


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

While I agree that it is unsafe, they are a beginner barn. 90% of those kids wont be riding in 5 years. The drop out rate on riding is as big as any other sport kids play when they are younger. They are just running a business. You give the people what they want and you get paid. I know at several of the barns in my area when inquiring about lessons for my son (almost 4) they said they would have him trotting in his first lesson. FIRST LESSON! Oh heck no! When I mentioned I didn't feel it was safe, they said they were just trying to keep the kids interested. Kids like to go hell bent and high. The faster and higher the better. Happy kids make for happy parents. Happy parents pay for more lessons. Its a sad thing because the basics arent being covered but thats just life.


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## Sghorselover (Oct 19, 2009)

WOW trotting first lesson and hes 4! True about the 5 years they will not be riding! 

Hmm the world is a strange place


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

We have couple barns like that too. They promise (on website!) beginners jumping within a month. And the sad part too many people truly believe it's indeed possible and want to skip all basics to go straight to "cool" stuff. :shock: It's just SO dangerous for the rider (and I'm not even talking about the poor horse with the sack of potato slamming its back).


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## DressageIsToDance (Jun 10, 2010)

I was trotting, in hand, after a month or so of lessons. And it was a while before I trotted on my own. I didn't canter for almost a year or more I'd say. Jumped after 1-2 years.

Some barns take horses as a joke, what can I say. I left a barn actually, because he ****ed me off by letting small children ride horses that I KNEW were about half-broke and had rearing and bolting issues.

But that's THEIR lawsuit waiting to happen, not mine.


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## ErikaLynn (Aug 3, 2010)

I 100% agree. I was on a lunge line for about 6 months and didnt canter for a whole year when I started riding. And I didnt start ground poles for another 2 years. And I'm thankful for that because it built up my form.


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## Sghorselover (Oct 19, 2009)

I have a very good feeling that with a good trainer and a safe one riders can go very far
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lid7239 (Jul 28, 2010)

I'm with ErikaLynn, I did walk, trot on the lunge line for a while before starting anything else, then it was a couple years before we did any crossrails. I think it is so important to have a secure seat (for your sake and the horse's sake) before you even start to canter! Riding (well) is not something that can be accomplished in a few weeks.

I was actually just talking with my current riding instructor last week about kids starting to ride. She said that she won't start teaching kids until they are about 5 and even then, she will only do walk, trot. She believes that children do not have the strength or balance to begin to canter or jump until they are at least 9, for their safety and for the horse's!

I think it is such a disgrace to those of us who actually care about riding, and feel like it is important to do things correctly!


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

I am going to have to respectfully disagree with some of the above posters, based on my own experience. While I understand that the concern for safety is paramount; there is no reason why a reasonably athletic beginner on a well trained school horse can't be trotting over cavaletti and a pile of poles on the ground or a tiny crossrail with 10 lessons. 

The advantages of doing so (no, it's not just about advancing students quickly to keep their interest) are to make jumping seem like not such a big deal or a big step up, but just part of everyday riding, and to give them lots and lots of practice with maintaining jump position, eyes focusing up, not interfering with the horse, before the jumps get any bigger or more complicated. 

If you don't have a good school horse, stabilized on loose reins, that responds to voice commands, then no, it's a bad idea. 

If the beginner is timid or fearful, then it's a a bad idea. If the beginner can't maintain a decent design of position in two point grabbing mane, then it's a bad idea. (Just design, mind you - they're not going to have strength or grip yet.)

But a well taught, reasonably athletic beginner on a stabilized school horse? No reason not to. 

I suspect that a lot of you who are upset by the idea come from the teaching philosophy that you should be able to 1.) ride on contact and 2.) sit the canter before jumping. If that's the case, a year or two of instruction is about right to master those to skills. And if the only horse available to teach on is an intermediate level horse that needs to be ridden to a fence sitting and on contact, you're right again - the student shouldn't jump *that horse* until they can do those things. 

However, in 20 years of teaching Litteaur based instruction, 75 - 80% of the beginners were trotting poles/crossrails in two point, grabbing mane, in the first ten lessons, with very, very, few falls and no injuries. 

And I have a friend, a BHSI, who's run a riding school for 30 odd years, who pretty much does the same thing and has an exemplary safety record. 

So like a lot of things with horses, it depends. Does the situation the OP described sound scary and unsafe? Yup. Is it always bad to start beginners jumping early? Nope. Depends on the conditions.


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

Good points Maura! All beginners are not created equal either.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

maura said:


> I am going to have to respectfully disagree with some of the above posters, based on my own experience. While I understand that the concern for safety is paramount; there is no reason why a reasonably athletic beginner on a well trained school horse can't be trotting over cavaletti and a pile of poles on the ground or a tiny crossrail with 10 lessons.


Maura, your post as always is great to read, and I 100% agree with you, there is nothing wrong with poles and little crossrails if athleticism of the rider (I bet those with martial art or other "balancing" sport background should be really good balancing on horse) and a nice quiet horse knowing it's job allow it. 

But I (and I believe some other people here) was talking about real jumps (not cross rail). While 1-2 ft probably sounds pretty low, it's already enough to throw the rider especially if horse overjumps it (and I'm sure you know it much better than I do :wink: ). I've seen beginners doing that - THAT was scary. :shock: The worst part I've heard comments on how cute those kids are (even though on each jump the kids look like they gonna fly off the horse).


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

kitten, 

No argument from me. The situation that the OP describes sounded scary and unsafe. But the idea has been put forth multiple times on the board, not just in this thread, that beginners shouldn't jump, period, or that riders have no business jumping at all until they've mastered certain skills, and I wanted to offer an opposing view, and that having beginners trot cavaletti and cross rails in the the first 10 lessons doesn't necessarily have to be unsafe or indictative of poor teaching.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

maura said:


> I wanted to offer an opposing view, and that having beginners trot cavaletti and cross rails in the the first 10 lessons doesn't necessarily have to be unsafe or indictative of poor teaching.


 I wouldn't call those "jumps" though. Lol! But yes, I see what you are saying and I agree. For some people the leaning process goes faster than for others. I assume good trainer with experience should see when it's time to include something besides the flat work.

Just curious... I've heard the theory, that for the real jumps (2 ft and above) the rider should be able to jump without stirrups. So is it indeed a case? I've never seen jumping trainers here asking to jump without the stirrups.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Hmmmmmm...I guess I never really thought of those things as connected necessarily, though it does make sense. But yes, students who were jumping little combinations usually had spent some time without stirrups. Kept them from panicing if they did lose a stirrup, as well as increasing their overall security. And kids who were jumping courses, even 18" short stirrup courses, could at least post without stirrups brieffly. Kids jumping larger courses spent some time without stirrups every lesson. 

My sort of safety check for jumping security, rather than the amount of time spent without stirrups, was how well and how securely a student was jumping a warm up combination - three cavaletti to a crossrail, one stride to an oxer. If they were secure and correct over the last oxer in the combo, they could jump courses 3 - 6" less than that height, if that makes sense. And we always went up in height in the warm up combinations before we went up in height anywhere else.


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## Shalani (Jul 16, 2009)

Dont get me started on Trainers that allow beginners to jump !!!!!
They should be banned from instructing!!!

BEFORE YOU JUMP YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO
RIDE ALL 3 PACES BARE BACK OR WITHOUT STIRRUPS AND BE ABLE TO MAINTAIN CONTROL OVER YOUR HORSE AND MAINTAIN YOUR BALANCE EASILY!


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Hi, Shalani, 

Did you read the entire thread? 

Should I be banned from instructing? Really?

How about my friend who's a BHSI? Shall we ban her too?


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## MudPaint (Aug 14, 2010)

I'm in agreement with the OP (in that situation) and w/Maura. Should beginners be jumping... generally no. But having taught children I've learned it is important to get them used to obstacles early. We're not talking anything big. And the horses are those that go on auto pilot and just trot over. They are safe, reliable and totally in control. Even at the PC barn I ride at our first year students have all hopped over a pile of poles or 6" xrail. They have to be able to walk, trot and steer before doing pole work. Most of our beginners trot by their third lesson depending on their bravery and balance. 

There's a huge difference in jumping one fence in a ring and doing (or massively failing at) a course. Most of the kids who are starting course work have cantered a few times, can complete both intro dressage tests, and have done a lot of ground poles. But they are still only at cross rails. Once you get to riding courses and are ready to show, then you need to have more of the intermediate seat Maura described. But by then you are ready. 

Do i hate to see the kids at the local shows flying all over the place and coming completely out of the saddle with every jump.. you bet. And I make a point of finding out who their trainer is... I won't look them up when I'm looking for further instruction.


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## VelvetsAB (Aug 11, 2010)

_There are still a lot of coaches out there that arent certified though as well, so what are you going to do with them? they are going to keep coaching, cause the ban wont affect them._

_It depends on each kid and their abilities in the end. What if a kid is just naturally good at the sport and are ready to attempt jumping small obstacles in a few short weeks? Should they not be allowed to continue on even though no one else in their class has that ability? No, since that isnt fair to that particular kid who could move on, even though they are still a beginner._


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## DressageIsToDance (Jun 10, 2010)

I think low cavaletti, ground poles, ect are 100% okay, but that's NOT a jump. There's a difference in a jump that's going to unseat an inexperienced rider and the horse really just stepping over something.

I think it should be a case by case basis, every rider advances differently, but I don't think riders are ready to jump REAL jumps until they are comfortable with small obstacles, have decent balance and seat in walk/trot/canter. Just as a safety precaution. I was walking over little poles within a couple of weeks of riding though! Trotting cavaletti after a couple of months.


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## Shalani (Jul 16, 2009)

maura said:


> Hi, Shalani,
> 
> Did you read the entire thread?
> 
> ...




If you or your BHSI Friend allow children, that even to an untrained eye are clearly beginners to jump then yes .
I Understand that children progress at different paces .
I just hate seeing children that can barely ride jumping . They have no seat & no balance . Just because they are on a reliable school master doesn't mean they are ready to jump. My OP I'm sticking to it !

My opinion is mine alone and not a personal attack or insult


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## Shalani (Jul 16, 2009)

VelvetsAB said:


> _There are still a lot of coaches out there that arent certified though as well, so what are you going to do with them? they are going to keep coaching, cause the ban wont affect them._
> 
> _It depends on each kid and their abilities in the end. What if a kid is just naturally good at the sport and are ready to attempt jumping small obstacles in a few short weeks? Should they not be allowed to continue on even though no one else in their class has that ability? No, since that isnt fair to that particular kid who could move on, even though they are still a beginner._


Obviously banning them would be impossible..... They should be shunned lol
And I agree with you completely with the rest . I didn't say I had a problem with people only riding a few months then jumping , I said 
*Dont get me started on Trainers that allow beginners to jump*.

If a child is a natural and takes everything in their stride would they not be moved up out of a beginner class to an _intermediate class._

You can ride for years and still be a beginner . :wink:


​


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Question - why does "no seat" matter? 

What kind of seat, exactly, do they need to have to approach a small fence in two point and jump it?

Oh, and I'm certified with the ANRC, so after you contact the British Horse Society and complain about their teaching protocol, be sure to contact the Affliated National Riding Committee and complain about theirs. 

What you did say was this


> I didn't say I had a problem with people only riding a few months then jumping


 and this


> BEFORE YOU JUMP YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO RIDE ALL 3 PACES BARE BACK OR WITHOUT STIRRUPS


Either you've contradicted yourself, or, according to your system of instruction, you can ride for a few months and be able to ride bareback or without stirrups at all three paces? That's one heck of a system of instruction,.


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## DressageIsToDance (Jun 10, 2010)

I think many of us are getting our wires crossed about what "jump" is. At what size do we consider it a jump?

A raised ground pole or cavaletti is not a jump, IMO.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Ladies & Gentlemen, please cool down a little!  I don't see there is any offense offered to anyone, but rather misunderstanding. 

_Shalani _is referring to _real jumps_. But (as already mentioned) _cavaletties and low cross rails_ are not real jumps so as _Maura _mentioned it's not a problem to go over those even after just 2.5-3 months of consistent lessons if rider's ability allows it (and I'm sure a good instructor IS able to recognize if the person is ready or not yet).

BTW, a little off topic, should the jumping (or dressage) instructor be certified, or any Joe down the road can give lessons on those disciplines?


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## Shalani (Jul 16, 2009)

maura said:


> Question - why does "no seat" matter?
> 
> What kind of seat, exactly, do they need to have to approach a small fence in two point and jump it?
> 
> ...



It may surprise you to learn than some people learn to ride bare back , developing a balanced seat. 
There for learning all 3 paces bare back usually within a few months .... but there are variables like with everything *age * fitness level * number of lesson in a week.

Why are you getting so defensive ??? What are you trying to prove ??
I was stating my opinion ..... its not going to change anything . Im not going to call anyone and complain . What would be the point ? To give them my personal opinion as well....... I thought thats what this forum was for lol


Everyone else can read my opinion see it as mine and move on .....
Whats your problem ?


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## JPegasus (Aug 24, 2010)

mmm. let me say that it took me... heck, IDK a year before i could trot.... yeah. it really depends. you can go either way. i know some instructors who won't let you off the longe line for a really really long time.... i got sick of that. learned to ride.

i have never looked back. (of course, that's becuase i can't--most of my neck and back is fused together)


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## Shalani (Jul 16, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> Ladies & Gentlemen, please cool down a little!  I don't see there is any offense offered to anyone, but rather misunderstanding.
> 
> _Shalani _is referring to _real jumps_. But (as already mentioned) _cavaletties and low cross rails_ are not real jumps so as _Maura _mentioned it's not a problem to go over those even after just 2.5-3 months of consistent lessons if rider's ability allows it (and I'm sure a good instructor IS able to recognize if the person is ready or not yet).
> 
> BTW, a little off topic, should the jumping (or dressage) instructor be certified, or any Joe down the road can give lessons on those disciplines?


Thank you. 

Off the topic
I think they should be certified and come recommended by your local Riding club. Best Instructors get advertised by word of mouth .

If someone is not a qualified instructor but has the riding history & abilities to instruct & all you get is fantastic feed back whenever you ask about them I would use them.


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## DressageIsToDance (Jun 10, 2010)

Well, anyone _can_ give lessons, but _should_ they be giving them is the question?

A trainer may or may not choose to become certified...they may well be just as capable and experienced though. What I do is judge by their horses first of all, how happy and well-cared for they look, and how happy and knowledgeable the students are, and the feedback the community surrounding them gives.

I honestly don't know if my trainer is certified. But she's got a background in dressage and at shows and local associations to back her up, and she has been a wonderful help to me and paired me up with a perfect mount.


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## VelvetsAB (Aug 11, 2010)

_I agree with DITD....I dont think either of my coaches are certified, but they are wonderful coaches. One of them went through Young Riders. _

_Certification doesn't neccesarily mean the person is a good coach either...._

_But the kid is still a beginner rider and still learning, so why move him/her up to a lesson that is now too advanced for him/her and for what s/he knows? _

_I honestly dont see a problem with it to a certain extent. As long as there is no harm, no foul.....in the end the kids and parents are happy. Most likely almost all of those kids with the exception of a few are going to be around in a few years as someone else has already said. Its not like they were riding your horse and teaching it bad things..... This is the reason we have riding schools and boarding barns. Everyone has to start somewhere, and the back of a schoolie is better then on the back of a greenie or something that is too much for them IMO._


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

DressageIsToDance said:


> Well, anyone _can_ give lessons, but _should_ they be giving them is the question?


Well, I'm curious what are the advantages of being certified then. All dressage trainers I know ARE certified, so I'd assume there should be a reason behind it. Personally I don't really care if the instructor is certified as long as it's a good one and we have a progress.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Shalani, 

I was fine with the OP's opinion, and that of other posters in the thread, and then I posted my opinion, based on my differing experience and training. All fine. Everyone's being rational, and expressing reasonable differences of opinion and respecting different points of view. 

Then you come along, typing in caps and lots of excalamation points, and say people who teach as I do should be banned, then later that we should be shunned. 

My problem with your opinion is the way in which it's expressed, the fact that it's based on emotion rather than logic, and that you've contradicted yourself several times because you haven't fully thought through what you're saying. 

I am not in the least bit offended, but I am trying to challenge you to think through what you're saying. 

But we can go back to banning and shunning if you'd prefer.


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## VelvetsAB (Aug 11, 2010)

_In the english riding world, I think that dressage riders and coaches are the most serious about what they do....and I am not saying that any other english discipline isnt serious about what they do....dressage just feels more serious....if that makes sense. You wouldnt get to Grand Prix level(?) without being that way, so it would make sense that more dressage coaches are certified then jumping coaches. Really, I have enough knowledge to tell if someone is doing something wrong over a jump that I could teach it(I dont), but there is no way that I would be able to teach dressage....that being said, it would make it easier to have a coach not certified in jumping and be un/knowledgable then someone who has taken dressage seriously._

_Does that make sense?_


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## Shalani (Jul 16, 2009)

maura said:


> Shalani,
> 
> I was fine with the OP's opinion, and that of other posters in the thread, and then I posted my opinion, based on my differing experience and training. All fine. Everyone's being rational, and expressing reasonable differences of opinion and respecting different points of view.
> 
> ...


At which point did I contradict myself "several times"???

I agreed passionately with Sghorselover being against
*kids that still need to work on the basics and they are jumping 2"6'.*
So excuse me for using CAPS .! 

The topic was not trotting poles or small cavalleti .

There for invoking my angered response to a trainer risking the safety of someone else's child. Im sorry you took my response to the OP as an attack against you , It wasn't. Because my comments were reffering to the OP. 
I thought I made that point clear...... Are you allowing beginners to jump 2"6' after 3 lessons ?? 
If no then the banning and the shunning doesn't apply to you 
As if it were actually possible let alone from me lol.

I do sincerely believe that you shouldn't jump before mastering the 3 paces bare back or w/o stirrups.

Its like walking before you crawl its all great & wonderful....... until you need to swim!! :shock:













http://www.horseforum.com/english-r...ng-warning-rant-included-63648/#ixzz0ywF7aV2i​


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## VelvetsAB (Aug 11, 2010)

_Caps is considered yelling on the internet, which is kind of rude to begin with.....unless it is for abbreviations or to emphasis a word...._

_Guess that means I still shouldn't be jumping because I probably haven't mastered every pace without stirrups. But wait....somehow I still managed to get Novice Hunter Champion at the show I was at on the weekend as well as a first and second in Hunter Eq. Hmmm.... I had better tell my coach this!_


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## Shalani (Jul 16, 2009)

VelvetsAB said:


> _Caps is considered yelling on the internet, which is kind of rude to begin with.....unless it is for abbreviations or to emphasis a word...._
> 
> _Guess that means I still shouldn't be jumping because I probably haven't mastered every pace without stirrups. But wait....somehow I still managed to get Novice Hunter Champion at the show I was at on the weekend as well as a first and second in Hunter Eq. Hmmm.... I had better tell my coach this!_


Each to their own..... I like to do things properly and you like to do things.
I can be sarcastic too. 

Sarcasm aside.... I'm entitled to my opinion . I'm not forcing my ways on others & until just now have tried not to be rude to others.

Is it that wrong for me to stick to what I believe to be correct. :shock:


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Just as a side note. I find jumping (or even cantering) bareback to be rather hard on horse's back. Especially if horse is not flat backed (like my paint) and rather choppy. Doesn't matter how good rider you are you'll still slam the butt against the spine. While it can be done occasionally, I wouldn't do it on daily basis personally. With that being said it depends of course a lot on balance and weight of the rider. I'm talking from rather heavy adult prospective.


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## Bethy (Aug 31, 2010)

At the barn I am at now, the trainer only lets you move on when you are ready....so it could be a month or 3 years when you are ready to jump. 

I came from Western (Showing) to english (Hunter/jumper when started and now moving on to Jumper...because I am insane!) She stated I was the first student (mind you I am in my mid twenties and have been on a horse my whole life) that was alloud to canter her first lesson. But I know students who have been riding there for years that cant get the post right and have never ran. HEck it takes some students tons of lessons to get off the lead rope!! 

But I dont think there should be a time limit, it all depends on your skill and talent of riding.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Velvet and Shalani, 

What we’re talking about here is two entirely different styles of riding, and different teaching philosophies. 

Velvet is talking about *Hunter Seat* or American Forward Seat, Shalani, since I see you’re from Australia, I suspect you’re talking about a modified forward seat or what’s sometimes called balanced seat.
If when riders begin jumping “real” fences (2’and over, and not in a gymnastic, for purposes of this conversation) you expect them to ride sitting to the fence, and crest or for the automatic release over it then Shalani is right: the requirement should be that you be able to ride all three gaits sitting, either bareback or without stirrups, before attempting it. I also agree that it takes a couple of years of solid instruction to get to that point. 

But Shalani, the part of this that you’re not getting is that that’s not a technique that’s universally taught in the North America, where Velvet and I am from. In hunter seat, you may *never* sit the canter in a full following seat, and you don’t approach your fences sitting the canter. You jump entire courses out of the saddle in two point position. (This is why I asked you why you thought developing a following seat before jumping was important earlier; because in hunter seat riding, it’s optional – a good skill to have in your tool kit, but not necessary to jump safely.)

My teaching background has high beginners and low intermediates jumping 2’ – 2’6” courses on loose reins, steering by elementary aids and in two point position, grabbing mane over the fences. I would like to emphasize, in response to the OP, that their position is rock solid, they don’t flop around and land on the horse’s neck, and they’re under control when they do this. The *next* step in their riding education is to develop a following seat, and good, passive contact, ride sitting to their fences and to crest release. But riding fences on elementary aids and out of the saddle is perfectly acceptable and perfectly safe; and a lot easier on the horse than an inexperienced rider trying to sit to their fences. 

The above is why I kick a little at the “Beginners shouldn’t be jumping!” rant. If it’s clearly unsafe – rider out of balance and out of control, yes, sure, they shouldn’t be jumping. Jumping 2’6” after 4 lessons? Clearly unsafe, no matter how able and athletic the rider, but I suspect that’s an exaggerated scenario. But you have to be able to canter bareback or without stirrups comfortably and correctly before jumping a 2’ vertical? Nope, not necessarily, not depending on 1.) the style of riding being taught and 2.) the teaching method.


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## DressageIsToDance (Jun 10, 2010)

I'm not experienced in the area, so don't quote me, but I assume it's the same as having a degree. You're more likely to get hired if you have papers to go with the know how. Of course, if you are a trainer who has a great reputation, and manages your own barn, you can of course see why it's less of an issue.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

You make quite a bit of sense, Maura. Thank you for the explanation.


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## MudPaint (Aug 14, 2010)

maura said:


> Velvet and Shalani,
> 
> What we’re talking about here is two entirely different styles of riding, and different teaching philosophies.
> 
> Velvet is talking about *Hunter Seat* or American Forward Seat, Shalani, since I see you’re from Australia, I suspect you’re talking about a modified forward seat or what’s sometimes called balanced seat.



Maura you've hit the nail on the head and have also opened up heated topic (amongst many) in the US equestrian industry. The Hunter industry in the US is like no other in the world.. whether you ride As or breed shows. Even the way our hunters go vs any other country's is different. 

You will see that many of the horses can jump a 2'6" course with a looped rein and little guidance from the rider, so it is common for riders to be taught a little differently and not be as experienced as European riders of the same showing level. Do I agree with it... no... but this was how I was taught originally, and yea there have been some bumps making the transition to dressage/eventing, but I am a completely capable rider with excellent EQ, a soft hand/seat and I haven't been dislodged in 7 years (runs and knocks on wood). 

We all seem to be agreement that true beginners (those who have never ridden before and especially small children) should not be jumping bigger fences but small obstacles that horses are able to step over is the norm. Each training situation is different, and there are good trainers and bad. I'm going to guess the one the OP brought up is not so great or perhaps motivated by other things then sharing/teaching their craft.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

MudPaint, 

I could go on at length on the subject, but won't hijack this thread. Both styles and systems have merit and value. Hunter Seat, taught in the style I described, is well suited to a recreational rider who wishes to have a little fun, ride and not abuse their horse. I believe *more* of the riders I see on a regular basis should learn and use this style; their horses would be happier. More serious riders, particularly those who are serious about advancing in disciplines other than hunters; need to learn balanced seat and/or advanced technique. 

In re: certification. It's a good thing. I enjoyed the process. In over 20 years of teaching and hundreds of students, only one prospective client ever asked me about my certification. The rest were only concerned about reputation and word of mouth recommendations. 

My friend with the BHSI, (not the AI, the I) reports much the same. She tells me I'm one of the few people she's met who knows what her certification means. 

I would love to see the US have *one* standard certifying body, like the BHS, but I don't think it's going to happen.


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## Shalani (Jul 16, 2009)

maura said:


> Velvet and Shalani,
> 
> What we’re talking about here is two entirely different styles of riding, and different teaching philosophies.
> 
> ...


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## VelvetsAB (Aug 11, 2010)

_Thanks Maura for clarifying _


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

First link is a nice hunter round, ridden in two point:





 
This link is a great example of American forward seat in the jumper ring. The second half, Joe Fargis on Touch of Class is the best example. Conrad and Abdullah aren't exactly slouches, but Abduallah is a warmblood and will tolerate more of a deep seat. Touch of Class was a classic TB - hot and sensitive, and simply wouldn't tolerate that kind of ride. I wish I could find a vid of their first rounds in that Olympics, but were talking the pre-digital era. 

joe fargis+a touch of class - Google Search=


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## Joyful Rider (Oct 17, 2010)

Maura: You make sense if the school knows the horses won't canter out of or even into the jumps. I ride at an excellent school and they judge it individually as to when you can start to jump, but no one is allowed to jump who can't canter. Most horses will canter out of or in between jumps, and the ones who love to jump will canter into jumps, whether the rider asks for the canter or not. So to jump you have to be able to sit the canter well. My favourite horse tries to gallop a jump or jump course when she gets excited - imagine a beginner dealing with that.


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## LoveStory10 (Oct 31, 2009)

I was pushed very hard when I was younger and first started riding. In my very first lesson at my last barn, I was put on this very willfull gelding that I could barely handle, and I was told to JUMP. I didnt know any better, so I tried. It ended up with the horse taking off with me, and leaping over two more jumps that were about 70cm. It was a miracle I stayed on! I was pushed so much regarding jumping that I fell off almost every week, and my mom got fed up, and found me my current barn.

I was terrified of actually riding at this point, and it has taken me 3, almost 4 years to get to where I am now, after a lot of patience, and about 8 months of reteaching me the basics...

My one friend started to ride almost 5 years ago, and only started to jump about 10 or 11 months ago, but is already jumping 80cm. But she is a natural, and chooses to jump that high, she is by no means pushed.


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