# Just a thought...



## Tracer (Sep 16, 2012)

The thing is, there isn't just one way to train a horse. If there were, there wouldn't be so many trainers! You just have to look at some of the big names and their different methods to realise that one method does not fit all. Some horses are more intellectual and need more stimulation. Some are more stubborn and need more encouragement or force. Some have a bad past and need more sensitivity. 

Every professional is 'right'. There are a million ways to train a horse, not all of them kind, and not all of them will work on every single horse. But that doesn't make them wrong.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

A good trainer, whether they are working with horses or with riders or both, will always keep an open mind. Yes, they will work in a way that has been taught to them or they have learned for themselves, but, anyone who has had many horses in for training will know that what generally works for _most_ horses, does not work for _all _horses.


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## Chasin Ponies (Dec 25, 2013)

Even though most people aren't officially professional trainers, every single time a horse owner works with their horse they are training that horse-good or bad. Horse people are incredibly opinionated but I believe that no one should ever stop learning so, pick up a few good tidbits from the advice you are given and thrown out the bad.
I avoid the people/trainers who are stuck in a rut and are unable to learn or change. I call them "one trick ponies".
To me, horses are like children-every single one of them is born with a distinct personality and instead of fighting against the traits we don't like, we need to find a way to work through and around them!


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

Chasin Ponies said:


> *Even though most people aren't officially professional trainers, every single time a horse owner works with their horse they are training that horse-good or bad.* Horse people are incredibly opinionated but I believe that no one should ever stop learning so, pick up a few good tidbits from the advice you are given and thrown out the bad.
> I avoid the people/trainers who are stuck in a rut and are unable to learn or change. I call them "one trick ponies".
> To me, horses are like children-every single one of them is born with a distinct personality and instead of fighting against the traits we don't like, we need to find a way to work through and around them!


Hmmmm....I don't agree with this bolded statement 100%. Both of my horses are trained and finished, so when I ride...I'm not training as they already are trained. I just push the right buttons and they perform.


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## frlsgirl (Aug 6, 2013)

Yeah, I've noticed that too. Ask 10 trainers and you get 10 different answers. Once you establish a solid base line of knowledge as a rider, it's easier to weed out the ones that will lead you down the wrong path. Of course it all depends on what discipline you are working with too.

For example, in Dressage, if a trainer tells me "let's put a martingale on her and force her head into the desired position" - I know to run far, far away.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

You're just becoming more discerning as a horsewoman. That's a good thing.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

GotaDunQH said:


> Hmmmm....I don't agree with this bolded statement 100%. Both of my horses are trained and finished, so when I ride...I'm not training as they already are trained. I just push the right buttons and they perform.


True, BUT, if you were pushing the wrong "buttons" consistently, I think you would be UNtraining the horse. You are reinforcing the proper training, so you ARE training it.

Nancy


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

^I agree with this.

Aanndd... pretty much everything that everyone has said above. There are different methods, and many of them are successful. Horses, in lots of ways, are just like kids. You can't take a room full of children and know that they are going to learn the same way, at the same pace. Some will learn faster than others; some will plant their feet and downright refuse to learn. Some will be so adverse to it, that they need to get a different 'teacher'. I like that there are many options in trainers, then you can always find what's good for you and your horse.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

greentree said:


> True, BUT, if you were pushing the wrong "buttons" consistently, I think you would be UNtraining the horse. You are reinforcing the proper training, so you ARE training it.
> 
> Nancy


 You would be training the PERSON, not the horse...the horse already knows, the person doesn't. Take my horse for instance...you could push the wrong buttons....but there is no way you are untraining him.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

One thing you can always count on from the vast majority of horse people is that they think their way is the right way.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

A 'good' trainer is one that is effective with a variety of horses. A good trainer can teach horses with the innate ability to do something to do this to the best of the horse's ability without resentment or resistance. 

This means that the trainer must not only produce acceptable to very good results, but must adjust the method of teaching to fit that individual horse to bring out the best results that the horse is able to do. If the horse is free of resentment, fear or anxiety, then the trainer has good training ability. 

It is all about communication. Not every trainer can communicate with all kinds of horses. Some horses are a lot easier to communicate with. Some trainers adjust better to different kinds of horses. Results count a great deal, but are not the only consideration. If the trainer could get past any resistance on the road to those good results with little or no fear, anxiety or harshness, then the trainer has been effective and the methods used on that particular horse have been the right ones for that horse.

Methods can only be taught to some degree. Any method requires good timing and feel and very good judgement skills. These skills are very difficult to teach even when working one on one with a very dedicated student. Add to that -- methods need to differ from horse to horse. Methods used to teach timid, frightful horses need to be a lot different than methods used to teach willful, pushy horses, Even different methods are needed to teach spoiled horses.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

one size does not fit all

same with kids --- different kids learn from different methods and can even apply what they learn in different ways


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## Strawberry4Me (Sep 13, 2012)

There are some people who call themselves trainers, yet don't know a smidge about training. Me and my trainer call them "trainer extraordinaires." 

You definitely have to be careful when you're looking for a trainer because there are so many out there that call themselves that, but they're not. Nowhere close. 

I once saw a trainer extraordinaire BITE his horse on the nose and draw blood. To show his horse that biting is not okay. The horse pulled back, and it ripped the trainer extraordinaire's tooth out! I helped him look for it on the ground!! 

So yes, be careful who you take advice from. A good cue is usually how they treat/ interact with their OWN horses.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

We call them trainer wannabes. 

There was one here in town. He 'trained' a lot of horses around here after we quit. [He now has a regular job.] He brought his horses over here pretty often under the guise of wanting them to ride next to the highway so they would get used to traffic. [Our arena is next to a very busy US Hwy.] But, he always had some problem he was working on and wanted to ask me about. Or he would call on the phone and ask what I would do about such and such? Or he would ask me to ride his horse 'a minute' and see what he is doing with such and such.

I was working with a green horse one day and a guy came over to visit. I was explaining what I had and what I was trying to accomplish. He said, 
"Well, you know (insert trainer wannabe) showed me how to do that by doing x,y, and z just last week". It was exactly what I had showed him to do two weeks earlier. I told the guy that "Yes! I know. I showed him how to do it two weeks ago." He said, "Oh."


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## CowboyBob (Feb 11, 2013)

GotaDunQH said:


> You would be training the PERSON, not the horse...the horse already knows, the person doesn't. Take my horse for instance...you could push the wrong buttons....but there is no way you are untraining him.


Are you saying that I couldn't un-train or retrain what a horse already know???? If that was true then there would be no point in trying to "retrain" a horse because as you said "there is no way you are untraining him" does that go for all horses or just yours?? 
I don't agree with you I can un-train or retrain any horse. 

I work at a summer camp I train horses for our campers to use and learn to ride on. I SO WISH you were right that once I trained one of my horses they would never be un-trained by my campers.


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## CowboyBob (Feb 11, 2013)

BridlesandBowties said:


> So I do not qualify as Horse trainer what so ever. (; I'm still new to things and not trying to play it up like I know my stuff but I have been pondering something lately...
> 
> It seems that a lot of the 'trainers' I've talked to or even met just did not interest me. At first, I was all about listening to them and thought you know, "they're trainers. They know how to do it.". Though, as I went through some training with my mare, I realized just how odd the world of trainers is.
> 
> ...


All trainers are doing the same thing they just don't like to admit it. Training is just three easy steps:
1. Apply pressure
2. Get the correct response 
3. Release the pressure 

Trainers make their money selling the fact that 1. they are good at the three steps and 2. the little tricks they have learned to help with the 3 steps.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

CowboyBob said:


> Are you saying that I couldn't un-train or retrain what a horse already know???? If that was true then there would be no point in trying to "retrain" a horse because as you said "there is no way you are untraining him" does that go for all horses or just yours??
> I don't agree with you I can un-train or retrain any horse.
> 
> I work at a summer camp I train horses for our campers to use and learn to ride on. I SO WISH you were right that once I trained one of my horses they would never be un-trained by my campers.


It goes for any well trained horse that doesn't need "re-training"...and for my horses as well. The ones that need to be "re-trained" weren't trained right from the beginning. And I'll stand by that and the fact that I don't train my horses everytime I work with them.

In your case, because you have camp horses...you aren't re-training them, you are REMINDING them of what they already know.

I've put beginners and people with major phsyical handicaps (I have a small therapeutic riding program) on my horse since I retired him from showing. The woman who rides him has spina bifida, and while she can't use her leg and seat like I can....he responds to her because he is that well-trained. I set up mini trail courses, and he'll spin on the hind in a box for her like no ones busines....JUST by lifting her hand slightly and kissing. Now, when I ride, I just use spur and a kiss and he'll spin in that box. I didn't need to re-teach/re-train him that every time I ride, he was trained and already knows.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

CowboyBob said:


> Are you saying that I couldn't un-train or retrain what a horse already know???? If that was true then there would be no point in trying to "retrain" a horse because as you said "there is no way you are untraining him" does that go for all horses or just yours??
> I don't agree with you I can un-train or retrain any horse.
> 
> I work at a summer camp I train horses for our campers to use and learn to ride on. I SO WISH you were right that once I trained one of my horses they would never be un-trained by my campers.


I firmly believe "un-training" is a bunch of bull. 

I do believe, however, in correcting behavior. There is no such thing as the perfect horse. If you stick a bad rider on a nice horse long enough, that horse will learn bad habits. You can correct them, "tune them up" per say. 

You cannot teach a horse to forget something. You cannot wipe the slate clean and start all over. You can correct it and improve it.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

^ absolutely!!!!! Love this Delete. And God, if I have to train my horse every time I lay my hand on him...I guess I better fire my trainer....LOL.


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## Zeke (Jun 27, 2010)

greentree said:


> True, BUT, if you were pushing the wrong "buttons" consistently, I think you would be UNtraining the horse. You are reinforcing the proper training, so you ARE training it.
> 
> Nancy


I typically am in the same mindset as Nancy, that a person could fairly effectively dull the training on a horse if they were unaware that their poor riding was detrimental. 

However....



GotaDunQH said:


> You would be training the PERSON, not the horse...the horse already knows, the person doesn't. Take my horse for instance...you could push the wrong buttons....but there is no way you are untraining him.


I've worked with a couple of lesson horses trained to a higher level who typically no respond when a student "pressed the wrong button". They are pretty few and far between though in my experience. 

I'm also a very strong believer in that a horse who's not entirely honest (yes there are bombproof babysitters who make all other horses look bad) will act and work differently due to the rider's attitude, ability and leadership. These horses may be the one's who seem to be "untrained" because they are so willing to take the easy way out for themselves??


Back on topic of the thread though, I agree that there are a million ways to train a horse and there happen to be a million trainers out there. Everyone has a way that seems to work best for them or that they are most comfortable with. The good trainers, IMO, will keep an open mind when their ways aren't successful and try other things or admit that the problem is something they are unsure of fixing with that horse.


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## CowboyBob (Feb 11, 2013)

GotaDunQH said:


> In your case, because you have camp horses...you aren't re-training them, you are REMINDING them of what they already know.


I can agree with that. Thanks for taking the time to talk this through. This will give me some fun stuff to think about. I like to keep a few mental bones around to pull out and chew on from time to time. You have given me a new Bone.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

^ I enjoyed it as well, and camp horses are tough...been there and done that when I ran a small horse camp. But I betcha when you swing a leg over one of your camp horses, they think..."oh man, that guy who knows what he's doing is on me now" and they suddenly remember their training.


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## CowboyBob (Feb 11, 2013)

^^ true True and it really makes me mad sometimes I want to get on a horse and fix a problem they are giving a camper and as soon as my butt hits the saddle the problem just goes away.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

Anyone that has worked with TB's, Saddlebreds or Arabians, can vouch for the fact that some things just do not work well with them.

I would bet your Appendix is more TB in mannerisms, than QH.

And that difference is why JL won't work with hot breeds, because they react so differently. 

Reading a horse is imperative, if you are going to be any good with them. 

Part and parcel of that is "feeling" what works, and what doesn't.


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## equinesnfelines (Feb 1, 2014)

"oh man, that guy who knows what he's doing is on me now" and they suddenly remember their training.[/QUOTE] (my 1st attempt to quote someone--bear with me if this comes out all wrong.)

agreed----having been "run over" at the feed bucket i teach all mine to back away until i dump their feed---got one (born here) back after several yrs away and he was incredibly pushy in general but feeding time he rushed the bucket and i just walked away and put his feed up--went back out there an hour later and he still had attitude but not as firm--3rd attempt an hour later and he started backing up as i started to walk away--look in his eye clearly was an "OOPS"!!! they know what they know but they also know who else knows what they know!!!!!LOL.


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## Brendagun (Nov 17, 2012)

I find the 'un-teaching' versus 'reminding' discussion very interesting. Originally, I would have agreed with the un-teaching stance, but after reading I've changed my mind. 

We actually had a recent incident that highlights this perfectly. We have a elding at our barn that came out from pasture after two years of who knows what kind of riding and was brought to us. (We eventually bought him.) Anyways, we trained him in the basics, and began cutting and sorting training on him. He had great lateral movement off his front, and a nice, deep backup. A little lazy, but laziness is easier to deal with than hotness. He was ready for low level shows- we just hadn't brought him to one yet. Come show time a good friend asked if he could ride him since his mare was due to foal in a few weeks. We agreed, though were slightly wary. The man wasn't a super accomplished rider.

Fast forward a few days later, and the horse is a wreck. He'd back up when asked, then prance, lurch, and back up more when cued forward. Any cues to turn were recognized by several steps backward, a 90 degree turn, and more backing up. He wouldn't sit still. He would go from a walk to a trot instead of a walk to a lope, like he had been trained. 

Now, did he know that he was following the cue the wrong way, or was he dulled down by the bad rider? 

We proceeded with correcting him. I would get him to back up, stop, then walk forward. If he backed up again instead he got the free side of a split reign on his derriere. Within five minutes he was back to normal. So I have to wonder if I was just reminding him, because he was honestly confused when I first got on.


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