# Okay, NOW I'm confused.



## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

I went the WEG last week. A few times I took a break from walking around and sat near the schooling/warmup rings to watch the riders prepare for their upcoming competitions. I'm not sure if I was watching jumpers or eventers, but in all cases, the horses had martingales on that were so tight, the horse's couldn't even get their heads to the vertical, no less in front of it or be able to stretch out. In one case, I watched one rider jump her horse over what looked to be at least a 4' vertical several times with the head tied down. Each time the horse bucked after the fence in protest. She finally took it off, and the horse proceeded to throw his head around. I heard a woman next to me remark, "that's why he's in a martingale", but it just makes no sense to me. These are the best of the best in the jumping world. What is the logic to this? I'd post pics, but since they're not my horses, so I doubt that's appropriate.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

Quick fixes to training problems and bad riding are in fashion these days. That's really all there is to it. But I think these things go in cycles, so someday we'll see good riding again.


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## MissPhoebe (Jul 13, 2010)

I have noticed how "fashionable" martingales are right now, and to be honest it really bothers me. At the open shows I go to they are not allowed, but at some of the hunter shows I have been to occasionally I think my mare is the only one without one. 

Also, I sold my old horse, who I deemed the "HUS king" to a girl last summer, and although that gelding always carries himself long and low, she had a tight martingale on him in a video she sent me. WHAT?? WHY? I didn't say anything, but it was completely unnecessary and clearly the only function it had was the style. 

Personally, I'm under the belief that the less contraptions on a horse than the prettier the picture and the better trained the horse. But, that's just my humble opinion.


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## haleylvsshammy (Jun 29, 2010)

I agree with MissPhoebe. I've seen horses being ridden with martingales that I know don't need it. It really is a pity. Especially with how tight people are making them these days! Poor horses....


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## upnover (Jan 17, 2008)

I'm confused.... what kind of martingale was it? and she took it off in the schooling ring? That's strange. Whether or not the horse should have had it on in the first place, I don't know why she would have put it on to school and hten taken it off mid-school. And a horse at that level should be absolutely used to the tack she put on him. That seems kind of odd to me. And I don't know why anyone jumping that height would want to restrict their horse's head/neck like that. Are you sure they weren't draw reins? I've seen some trainers warm up with draw reins and then take them off.... I don't know. Strange!


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

Might have been draw reins. I just saw leather strap restricting neck. I'll try to post a pic that doesn't show the rider for clarification. 

The rider that took them off mid schooling did so because the horse was pitching a fit after each 4' jump. After they removed them, he jumped the remaining fences with just a little head tossing. Hopefully they noticed the improvement.


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## Saskia (Aug 26, 2009)

I help out at Pony Club and I notice so many of the kids use running martingales. 

Its beyond me because most of the horses don't need it, and about 90% of the martingales are not working. Most of them are too long and do not affect the horse at all. Additionally, as they have rings through the reins, the martingale only comes into affect if there is a firm contact, yet most of their hands are not stable enough to hold a contact against the mouth and the rings, which just results in a sort of "V" with the bit at one end, the rings pulling down in the middle, and the rider at the other end - all the time the horse ignoring whatever the rider is doing. 

I told some of the kids to take them off - most of them were adjusted too long and had no effect at all but they refused to. They said they couldn't control their horse without it or something. On the same token, many of them refuse to ride without crops too. 

It makes me wonder what kids are taught these days? They don't use their legs, don't use their hands properly... I mean I am not a brilliant rider or anything but its plain to see.


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## upnover (Jan 17, 2008)

Please post a pic if you can, I'm curious! I see lots of draw reins in the schooling ring. I personally find jumping with them a bit terrifying (esp at 4 ft!) but I know people who think it's a great way to teach the horse to use their body better over the fence. The theory is this... a horse does 2 main things to get over the jump. 1) lift up their legs and 2) round and lift their body. Lots of horses do one or the other but the best horses do both. The draw reins restrict the horse from properly using their head/neck which forces them to put an extra effort in lifting their legs. Then they take the take the draw reins off and hopefully the horse will use both legs and body. Personally, I'd rather do lots of gymnastics at home to teach a horse to use their body when they get to shows, but that's just me. But you can't build a gymnastic in the schooling ring soo.... to each their own I guess.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> Its beyond me because most of the horses don't need it, and about 90% of the martingales are not working. *Most of them are too long and do not affect the horse at all.
> *


A running martingale shouldn't affect the horse unless it's head is about to hit the rider in the face - Otherwise it is too tight.

I put my Arab in a martingale when other people ride him as when he gets excited he can do the Arab head flip - it is super loose and he doesn't even try when he has it on, so it probably looks like it does nothing - but it saves less experienced people from getting smacked in the face.

A loose running martingale harms no one and can make a horse safer - I don't understand why you would want it taken off?


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## corporate pride (Feb 23, 2010)

i have rings on my young horse but only because he travels like a lama! lol i out them on and he goes "oh nose needs to be down" i don't normally like them as they interfere with the one rein stop. i use that to control in cases when the horse has a hissy fit. but i've stop riding him until he's remouthed, i have no one rein stop anyways lol
my friend was going to sonya johnson clinic (silver medal at the olympics) for eventing and she ws told the she MUST have a martingale on her horse. her horse doesn't usually have one on anyways....i though it was strange


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## BarnBratt (Oct 11, 2010)

Yes, I agree with everyone else one here. I was at a show the other day and in the warm up ring, everyone had tight martingales, even tighter draw reins and side reins to keep their horses head tucked to its chest in the perfect frame. I thought it was absolutely crazy. Of course, everyone had take that junk off for the flat classes. But still, train your horse properly!


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## MissPhoebe (Jul 13, 2010)

I also feel like a lot of people don't know the difference between a running and a standing martingale. I think that there genuinely are some horses (usually young and green) who might need a running martingale when doing jumping training, but I feel like people forget that they are training tools and that the overall goal should be that eventually you will not have to use it at all once the horse has learned ho to properly hold its head. Also, and I know of one case, standing martingales should be used if a horse is very rude with its head and might cause harm to its rider by throwing its head around. I know a horse that broke someone's nose doing that, and after that they used a standing martingale (justifiably so). I just feel like there are a lot of training devices that are used incorrectly. Instead of moving towards the goal of self sufficiency the riders throw all these gadgets on to get what they want and seldom take them off to check the progress (martingales, side/draw reins, happy halters, flash nosebands).


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

Unfortunately "the best of the best" riders, don't often feel it's worth it to spend time training the horses to perform well without a tie down...it's a quick easy fix, but a dangerous on IMO.

And you'd think people would smarten up and realize collection doesn't come from a 'perfect headset'...collection comes first, THEN headset, and if collection and engagement have been accomplished properly the head set is a moot point anyway, because the horse will naturally travel with a 'good' headset.


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## EasyintheSaddle (Aug 23, 2010)

I was at WEG also and noticed that EVERYONE had draw-reins or a chambone on. A couple people even had a degouge. 

I don't believe that they incredible international riders and trainers are too lazy to do it properly. They got to the level they are for a reason! What my friend and I were thinking (and I could be totally wrong) was that they were exaggerating getting them off the front end, and getting the horses really set back so they were ready to spring over these huge jumps! I also noticed in the schooling ring that they liked to get really close to the base of the jumps, I think for the same reason, to make the horses majorly rock back. 

I don't think that a horse should be trained with a bunch of gadgets, but I think that in the proper hands they have a purpose. I am going to give all of the best riders in the world the benefit of the doubt.


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

Just because you're "the best" doesn't mean you're doing it in a way that the horse is comfortable; I won't sacrifice my horse's longevity for the sake of fake perfection. And when you're using such "tie downs" that way, it is fake...and when their heads are tied that way, it is definitely NOT going to get them off their forehand...quite the contrary. JMHO.


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## EasyintheSaddle (Aug 23, 2010)

I'm so sorry mom2pride- I normally really agree with you when I read things on here - but I just don't see it your way...

I think to be successful in our sport you HAVE to have the utmost respect and care for your horses, and I don't think that these rider are any different. I don't think they just tie their heads down and jump huge jumps. I believe they spend hours and hours at home, and we see one tiny snapshot of last minute preparation. They also weren't just loping around with their heads down, they were riding forward into the bridle, doing lateral movements, pirouettes, all sorts of things. Plus, I'm a believer that if a horse is truly unhappy or uncomfortable - they could not perform at that level. I mean, can you imagine trying to force an unhappy horse over a 6 foot jump! I can't see it happening! Horse and human have to be in perfect sync and loving their jobs! As for longevity - what about Rodrigo Pessoa and Baloubet du rouet? That horse was 19 and still able to perform!! 

I'm not saying that I have any kind of idea what goes into the preparation of a horse at that level. All I know is that from my experience the last 17 years riding and training horses, and the hours I have spent watching these people and wanting to be where they are, I just can't believe that they have anything except for love and respect for their animals.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

It had to be a show jumping event. Draw reins are illegal to use at any time in combined training (eventing).


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

Okay, if I did this right, here's a short video. I couldn't figure out how to take stills from it. It shows what it need to. If you pause it right at the beginning, you'll see that the bay horse cannot even approach vertical with his head, no less stretch out his neck. I just don't understand the point to it. 

http://www.youtube.com/my_videos?feature=mhum


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## MissPhoebe (Jul 13, 2010)

I couldn't watch the video but I just wanted to add this...

I spent the day down at the Penn National Horse Show in Harrisburg on Thursday and I really paid attention to what was going on and thought about this post. This is what I saw...
The amateur owners were practically all using standing martingales on the course (3'3"). When I say practically, I mean that only 3 out of the pack of 25 did not have a standing martingale on. And, I also have to add that the top two horses in the class were among the pack not wearing one. Although I didn't see any glaring problems from using them, I can tell you that only about 6 of the horses seemed like they needed them. Those horses were really strong and trying to pogo their heads all over the place before the fence, which is why they probably use them.

Then, the Open Jumper class (5'5"), which had several top, professional riders came out. I noticed that all of their horses had on running martingales, which I was always taught is the safe martingale for jumping. It did not inhibit their horses, and several of the horses were very strong with their heads.

I have to agree with the posts about how they do not believe professionals are misusing the tack or trying to make up for inabilities. That is not what I meant at all in any of my previous posts. I specifically appraised the tack that they chose for their horses to see the difference.

My pet peeve is the people using the *standing* martingales that aren't even clear on why they are using them for other than to have another place to mount a fancy gold nameplate. After I got home from the show, I had a conversation with a hunter/jumper trainer that I know (mainly because I wanted to tell her that I got to sit next to Rodrigo Pessoa at the show!!!) and asked her about the sudden use of martingales in the hunter world, and surprisingly enough, because I thought I was going to hear a long spiel about their benefits, she came right out and said that none of her horses needed them but since they are fashionable right now she makes sure that her students always have them on at shows. Yep, that's right, she openly admitted that they are never used at home and they only use them on show days. So in my mind the web became even more tangled. Let's hope it's a fashion statement that is short lived, and at least I know that those horses aren't putting up with that nuisance all the time, at least with that trainer. Weird.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

I find this fairly stupid, IMHO. Martingales are a corrective device. Why advertise to a judge that your horse has a training problem, if they don't. It boggles my mind.


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## MissPhoebe (Jul 13, 2010)

I totally agree with that 100%.


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## sdellin (Jul 14, 2010)

Allison Finch said:


> I find this fairly stupid, IMHO. Martingales are a corrective device. Why advertise to a judge that your horse has a training problem, if they don't. It boggles my mind.


I so agree with this. Martingales should be loose enough for the horse to go above the vertical, but to keep it from raising it's head so high that it smacks the rider in the nose. My understanding is the martingale is to keep the rider safe, not tie down the horse's head.


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## Charis (Jul 6, 2010)

MissPhoebe said:


> I couldn't watch the video but I just wanted to add this...
> 
> I spent the day down at the Penn National Horse Show in Harrisburg on Thursday and I really paid attention to what was going on and thought about this post. This is what I saw...
> The amateur owners were practically all using standing martingales on the course (3'3"). When I say practically, I mean that only 3 out of the pack of 25 did not have a standing martingale on. And, I also have to add that the top two horses in the class were among the pack not wearing one. Although I didn't see any glaring problems from using them, I can tell you that only about 6 of the horses seemed like they needed them. Those horses were really strong and trying to pogo their heads all over the place before the fence, which is why they probably use them.
> ...


Yep. They're in fashion, so everyone uses one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

Allison I totally agree with you...fashion or not, I would rather use what my horse Actually uses all the time, rather than slap something on him at shows "just" because it's the craze...how dumb.


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## AngelEquestrian (Jul 15, 2010)

It's always been the fashion here to have martingales (usually running), colourful 3 ring gags and fly veils.

Less tack, the nicer the horse looks.
Ridiculous that these riders are allowed to influence children IMHO.


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## ilikehorses (Oct 10, 2010)

I'm not sure if it applies in this competition in some competitions a martingale it's known as a "training aid" which can be classified as an illegal advantage.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Unfortunately, there is a similar situation in dressage and eventing. Flash nosebands are all the rage and are used whether the horse needs it or not. It is a rare thing for one of my horses to need one and I will NOT use it if not needed. It is hard to get a nice bridle these days without the flash loop.

It is a corrective device, folks. Don't tell a judge that your horse has a training issue if it doesn't!

Same thing.


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## upnover (Jan 17, 2008)

Allison Finch said:


> It is a corrective device, folks. Don't tell a judge that your horse has a training issue if it doesn't!
> 
> Same thing.



Technically, right? But I was at a judge's clinic a while ago when the well known judge giving the clinic said that he *considers it "part of the uniform" *(for a hunter) and that it's more expected to have one on then not! AND he said that very few horses have a neck attractive enough to not need one (people like that the line separates the horse's neck from the body?) I was shocked! I mean, really??

Back to the OP though, it sounds like they were draw reins, not a martingale. And standing martingales are illegal in the jumper ring above ~4ft, which would definitely include horses at the WEG. I have a feeling they were draw reins or some kind of training device.


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

I put a link to video of it. Can somebody just look and tell me what those were? It looked like the bay horse had both on.


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## Reiterin (Mar 28, 2010)

I just had to say; "Fashions" are stupid in the horse world! A horse and rider should be judged by their abilities, not what they're wearing!
OK. Now I feel better.


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## upnover (Jan 17, 2008)

MyBoyPuck said:


> I put a link to video of it. Can somebody just look and tell me what those were? It looked like the bay horse had both on.



I wasn't able to see it!


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

I can't see a video either...

And to the person who went to the judge's clinic: so the judges "want" the horse's head 'pulled' into a position? Because I sure don't think a martingale "makes" a horse's neck look any better than it is...unless, like I said, they are wanting them tight enough to actually 'make' the horse arch his neck more... just want some clarification there, because that doesn't make sense to me either way. Lol!


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## upnover (Jan 17, 2008)

mom2pride said:


> I can't see a video either...
> 
> And to the person who went to the judge's clinic: so the judges "want" the horse's head 'pulled' into a position? Because I sure don't think a martingale "makes" a horse's neck look any better than it is...unless, like I said, they are wanting them tight enough to actually 'make' the horse arch his neck more... just want some clarification there, because that doesn't make sense to me either way. Lol!



No, the actual function of the martingale had nothing to do with what he was talking about. When you look at the horse from the side, the strap that lays across the shoulder makes a more attractive picture because its breaks the horse up. Whereas no martingale would make it more noticeable if your horse didn't have an attractively shaped neck. This is something I've actually heard from several trainers who are pro-martingale-on-everything.


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## corporate pride (Feb 23, 2010)

upnover said:


> No, the actual function of the martingale had nothing to do with what he was talking about. When you look at the horse from the side, the strap that lays across the shoulder makes a more attractive picture because its breaks the horse up. Whereas no martingale would make it more noticeable if your horse didn't have an attractively shaped neck. This is something I've actually heard from several trainers who are pro-martingale-on-everything.


well that's dumb! why not just wear a breast plate? i got a stockmans which is a thinner breast plate with ring attached that can be removed. why the hell would you want to spend money on the stuff you don't need to "look" the part?? stupid people don't know anything about horsemanship....


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

EasyintheSaddle said:


> I was at WEG also and noticed that EVERYONE had draw-reins or a chambone on. A couple people even had a degouge.


If you are going to use the word everyone, even more so when you are going to capitalize it, you might want to be sure you really mean everyone.

It would have been better said, in the <whatever you were watching> warm up ring just about everyone was using......

We know EVERYONE was not using them and knowing that and your insistence that EVERYONE was using them makes it hard to believe the rest of your post.



MissPhoebe said:


> and asked her about the *sudden* use of martingales in the hunter world


(bolding mine)

There is nothing sudden about standing martingales in the hunter world in OF classes.

I agree that they are 'part of the uniform' and not there as a device to fix something. 

When I bought the one I use on my boy I shopped until I found one long enough that it did not interfere with him at all. Just some more leather added to the outfit.



mom2pride said:


> And to the person who went to the judge's clinic: so the judges "want" the horse's head 'pulled' into a position?


(Speaking of hunter shows) Most people do not have their martingale short enough to actually pull the horses head anywhere. I would guess the people who do have their martingale shortened way up are noticed by the judge as having it that way and are marked down for it.



corporate pride said:


> well that's dumb! why not just wear a breast plate? i got a stockmans which is a thinner breast plate with ring attached that can be removed. why the hell would you want to spend money on the stuff you don't need to "look" the part?? stupid people don't know anything about horsemanship....


Two reasons, breastplates are not the right look and a breast plate is thought to interfere with the shoulder movement where a standing martingale does not.

Having a (loose) martingale because it is part of the uniform is no more stupid than you (general you) buying those new shoes because they are in, or you wearing that silly apron at work because it is part of the uniform there, or better yet, you wearing the same thing as all your other team mates at a gymnastics competition or such.


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## upnover (Jan 17, 2008)

Great post Alwaysbehind!


Is it a silly thing to strap on extra leather good? Sure. But like the point AB made, I thought capri pants were ridiculous when I first saw them too. Why do you want to look like you're walking around in a flood? I have several pairs now. I thought the martingale thing was ridiculous. And then I gave in. Whatever. If you want slap it on every horse before they go in the ring? Fine. (FWIW, at Harrisburg last week -nationals- the great majority of hunters school without one, and throw one on before their round) Personally, if it's fitted correctly, I just don't think it's a big deal. 

Corporate Pride- I was talking to someone at arab nationals a few years ago when I noticed literally EEEEVERY single horse in the ring of some class was wearing a breastplate. I was informed by a veteran of the arab world that it was just "in". Doesn't it "advertise" that your saddle won't stay put? Maybe. But, there it's just part of the uniform.

I've decided that of all the things there are to get upset about, having a martingale be part of the "hunter uniform" just isn't going to be one of them.


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## Appyt (Oct 14, 2007)

I can understand a running martingale, even for fashion. However, a standing is the same as a western tie down, which many disapprove of on principle. While they are used in a few disciplines I honestly do not believe they are in any way an attractive addition. Jumping with a Standing seems as stupid to me as taking a trail horse out in a tie down. Certainly not a good thing in water, horses drown that way.


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## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

I know little about the rulebooks in terms of jumpers, but my take on it is an item used for fashion is not automatically a bad thing. I'm primarily a western rider, and well aware we have a lot more of that [items used purely for fashionable purposes] going on in the western world already. A good example is the western breastcollar - how many people ride western with a pretty, blingy breastcollar that is purely for appearances - not only are they rarely doing the kind of riding to make it a necessary piece of equipment, but most the "fancy" ones are too thin and lightweight to serve a useful purpose anyways, they are just to look good. And they DO look good! lol So who cares?

I'm not sure why people take issue to things that don't effect them. If you use a martingale for safety purposes, or for fashion, or as "part of the uniform", so be it. It's not hurting anyone. For those that don't like it, don't use one. I really don't see an issue here that requires 4 pages of "discussion" and "debate". There are seriously much bigger problems in the world.


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## Appyt (Oct 14, 2007)

It's a forum Indyhorse.. I don't see any harm in discussing it. A breastcollar worn for pretty isn't affecting the horses movement or ability to perform.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Appyt said:


> It's a forum Indyhorse.. I don't see any harm in discussing it. A breastcollar worn for pretty isn't affecting the horses movement or ability to perform.


But it is not in most cases. You must have missed that part of my post. At least not in the hunter ring. Most people purchase and adjust them so the only time they would do anything is if there was a total meltdown. 

Yes, I guess in theory it is like a western tie down. But again, not adjusted tight so it is not holding the head down. So in mechanics, similar, but not used that way.

I agree with Indy, in the hunter ring most riders use a standing martingale in the same way most western riders use a breastcollar.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Appyt said:


> A breastcollar worn for pretty isn't affecting the horses movement or ability to perform.


Neither is a loose, running martingale.

Nobody's arguing the fact that a too tight martingale causes problems. It's saying that martingales are eeevvviiiillll or that your horse obviously isn't trained correctly if you use one, that has people a little miffed.

They're no more evil than any other piece of tack or correctional device when used properly so that they don't interfere with the movement and performance of the animal.

Just as a Western rider wouldn't _dream_ of going into the ring without their hat, chaps and bling, neither would a hunter rider go in without a martingale.


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## Appyt (Oct 14, 2007)

Alwaysbehind said:


> But it is not in most cases. You must have missed that part of my post. At least not in the hunter ring. Most people purchase and adjust them so the only time they would do anything is if there was a total meltdown.
> 
> Yes, I guess in theory it is like a western tie down. But again, not adjusted tight so it is not holding the head down. So in mechanics, similar, but not used that way.
> 
> I agree with Indy, in the hunter ring most riders use a standing martingale in the same way most western riders use a breastcollar.


I think you are confusing things. A breast collar attaches to the Western saddle much the same as a breast plate does to an English saddle. A Standing Martingale and a Tie down are the same thing, one English one Western. They can be adjusted the same, tight or loose or in between. Both are used to stop the horse from lifting(or throwing) his head too high or to allow him to brace on(as in barrel racing and roping, ie western). 

Anyway, I've stated my thoughts and do not see any harm in discussing it here as this is what the forums are for. Discussion....


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## Appyt (Oct 14, 2007)

Speed Racer said:


> Neither is a loose, running martingale.
> 
> Nobody's arguing the fact that a too tight martingale causes problems. It's saying that martingales are eeevvviiiillll or that your horse obviously isn't trained correctly if you use one, that has people a little miffed.
> 
> ...


A running martingale is not a breastcollar.. I am not saying a running martingale is evil, nor am I saying that Tie downs or standing martingales are(same thing). Just saying I want to be able to let my horse have his head if he needs it, I(personally) don't want to constrict the head in a way I cannot unconstrict with my reins.. Does that make sense?? I'm not trying to argue, btw.. Not sure if my first post came across that way, it wasn't meant to..


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## upnover (Jan 17, 2008)

Appyt said:


> It's a forum Indyhorse.. I don't see any harm in discussing it. A breastcollar worn for pretty isn't affecting the horses movement or ability to perform.



Here is a video of John French and Rumba's winning round in the Hunter Derby finals last year. The horse jumps like a quintessential hunter: smooth, round, with his knees to his eyeballs. It's fit so Rumba can't fling his nose straight up and loose enough that it doesn't affect his head. I don't see it affecting his movement or ability to perform. The course is lovely. 

Rumba & John French – 100K USHJA International Hunter Derby Lexington, KY : Hunter Jumper News


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## Appyt (Oct 14, 2007)

Why would any one want to put a tie down on a horse who doesn't need it, even as loose as that? It's just a mystery to me.


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

upnover said:


> No, the actual function of the martingale had nothing to do with what he was talking about. When you look at the horse from the side, the strap that lays across the shoulder makes a more attractive picture because its breaks the horse up. Whereas no martingale would make it more noticeable if your horse didn't have an attractively shaped neck. This is something I've actually heard from several trainers who are pro-martingale-on-everything.


Oh, okay, so it has more to do with the neck strap than the 'tie down' strap...gotcha...It just didn't make sense to me, is all...cause I'm like "how is a horse's head being tied down attractive?" :?


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Appyt said:


> I think you are confusing things. A breast collar attaches to the Western saddle much the same as a breast plate does to an English saddle. A Standing Martingale and a Tie down are the same thing, one English one Western. They can be adjusted the same, tight or loose or in between. Both are used to stop the horse from lifting(or throwing) his head too high or to allow him to brace on(as in barrel racing and roping, ie western).
> 
> Anyway, I've stated my thoughts and do not see any harm in discussing it here as this is what the forums are for. Discussion....





Appyt said:


> Why would any one want to put a tie down on a horse who doesn't need it, even as loose as that? It's just a mystery to me.


Appy, I strongly suggest you go back and actually read the posts in the thread.

I agree with Indy on the point that most hunter riders use a martingale as a part of the uniform, not as a piece of equipment, the same way western riders use a breast plate as part of the uniform and not a piece of equipment.

And I explained already why people use a 'tie down' (standing martingale in the case of a hunter rider) who do not need it. It is part of the uniform.


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## Appyt (Oct 14, 2007)

Wrote a long post but don't see any need to post since it's repetitive.. I guess you are comparing breast collars to standing martingales as parts of uniforms and I saw the comparison as what the item is "used" for. Thus my statement that they are not the same. I don't see them as used the same, but I don't show either. 

 Oh, and western riders don't use breast plates, they use breast collars. LOL 

Time for me to step out of the english folder. My bad.


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