# Is this a lost cause? OTTB very aggressive...



## Beauseant (Oct 22, 2010)

Is this an OTTB thing or what?

Just wanted to add that the BOs dogs are not threatening him, they bark at him out of fear. They want him to think they aren't afraid of him, but they are scared to death of him. Other than barking, they don't threaten him in any way. They are little dogs, BTW 

HOW can he be so great with humans, so calm and loving and emotionally dependent....UNNATURALLY so. 

but with his own kind, he is a dictator.

And with dogs, he is psychotic.


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## apachewhitesox (Dec 9, 2010)

Ok I'm just going to add my 2 cents.

I don't think it's an ottb thing, my Tb is very similar to your boy but he isn't OTT. He is a massive bully to horses especially geldings or new horses. My other gelding is the only exception to his bully rule. He seems to have gotten over himself a bit but he can get very aggressive towards them kicking, biting and rearing etc. Ok just so I don't start a huge list he is pretty much nasty to any animal except people. I think he could even turn very aggressive towards people if someone allowed him to.

My boy isn't overly affectionate though over the last month or two he has grown more affectionate towards mainly me but also my instructor because he has respect for us. We are pretty much the only people, animals etc who don't allow him to bully us. He knows better then to have a go at one of the dogs or horses while I'm close by because he will get into big trouble especially if I might get hurt. You can see it on his face when he knows he stepped out of place. 

So I think you could maybe teach him to not do it while your around but as soon as your not there he will most likely just go back to doing waht he does. Also even if it is out of fear, I don't allow the dogs to bark at or get in his face because to me that is just as bad as him doing it to them.

ETA: Maybe he has had a bad expedrience with them before?


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## Annnie31 (May 26, 2011)

It is instinctive for horses to protect themselves from predators and unfortunately your horse sees the dogs as predators. When your dogs bark excitedely at the horse because they are afraid, the horse may think they are showing aggression and answer with a protective reflex. So far as the old dog goes, well I think the horses response to him was also protective. Im so glad he is okay. You might try to introduce the horse to the dogs one at a time in a supervised area with you holding the lead on the horse. Have someone holding the dogs also and just walking them around the horse until they settle and the horse settles. You horse may at least allow them a bit nearer if everyone calms down. 
I dont think it is safe for the old dog to be near the horse and you should warn your neihbours that your horse is terrified of dogs and may stomp the old fellow if he comes around.
and the other horses will stay out of his way, he is simply at the top of the pecking order and that is the way of horses.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Tell the BO to keep her dogs under control and dog aggression will cease to be an issue. He IS being threatened by the dogs and he is acting on his instincts.


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## Beauseant (Oct 22, 2010)

Beau is currently at a private farm and he and epona are the only horses on the property.

While he gets along reasonably well with her most of the time, occasionally he shows what seems like stallion behvior. He runs her around, rears at hear, and if he can corner her and get close enough, he will rear up and come down on her back, biting her neck or rump if he cannot get close enough. 

It LOOKS like stallion behavior, but he is in fact a gelding as "they" are not there anymore. 

So...HOW can a gelding still have hormones??


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## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

My Belgian gelding exhibits the behaviors you speak of with other horses. He rears up at them, mounts them and has even tried breeding them. He was gelding when he was a foal. He was also sick as a foal and handraised for awhile by some teenage girls. So he is clingy with humans, licks them, wants to be near them. Doesn't do well with other geldings and is pushy, bossy and mean to the mares (but they can hold their own). Sounds to me like this might be a bottle baby?


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

My now deceased Arabian gelding was very people oriented, despised his own kind, and hated pretty much any other animal on the planet. Dogs and cats he'd deliberately stomp and bite.

He had to have separate turnout, or very limited company. There were very few horses he could ever tolerate enough to be turned out with, and there were still altercations if anyone _dared_ question his despotism. 

As long as Beau is controllable under saddle and in hand, there may be nothing you can do about his aggressive tendencies except to make sure he doesn't have access to dogs and other horses.

If anyone is stupid enough to let their dogs out around him, then the poor dogs will pay the price.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

My yearling kicked my friends dog in the head about a month ago. Luckily the dog has a thick skull! He is fine.

In my yearling's case, we had issues earlier in his life where I would pony him out and a neighbor's dogs would run out and bark at us so he started kicking at them. So even though my friend's dog was minding it's own business on it's own property, I think my yearling has learned dogs are the enemy. 

I don't have any dogs myself, so it doesn't effect me, but I hope he doesn't kill someone else's dog in the future. But I think it is an instinctive thing for a horse to do, especially if they have been harassed by dogs in the past. 

Maybe your guy has experience with yappy, heel nipping dogs in his past too.

Oh, and I almost forgot, my very first horse, an Arabian gelding, always played "get the dog." He would chase and stomp at them with his front feet. Never got one though! Although he came pretty close on at least one occasion. (He was a perfect beginner's horse with humans!)

Then, another Arab gelding I had stomped a dog we had at the time also. I think dog hatred must be pretty normal in horses. :lol:


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

Sounds a little bit like my horse, who can be dangerously horse aggressive but is all sweetness and light towards people. I trained her to mind her manners around other horses when she's being ridden or handled, but as far as what she does when she's at liberty, there's nothing I can do other than try to manage it and arrange her turn-out so she's not out with anybody she wants dead. 

She's fine with well-behaved dogs but will threaten individual dogs she's found threatening, whether she's under human control or not. That I haven't trained out of her, as she's never applied it to all dogs -- the dog has to do something to deserve it first -- and it's gotten us out of a few scrapes.


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## Beauseant (Oct 22, 2010)

Speed Racer, the horse you described sounds EXACTLY like Beau. So, Beau is "normal" then and not some kind of freak?!

ShutupJoe, you are right. We HIGHLY suspect he was bottle raised. And a few other friends of ours have said the same thing you said. He definately sounds like a bottle baby....

He even PREFERS to eat hay out of your hand. Really. Of course we don't stand there and feed him, but oftentimes he will come up to us when we are carrying a flake out to the paddock and start munching. When we put it down, sometimes he will walk away from it.....or stand and wait for us to bring another out so he can eat it from our hands. We are also his official horse fly killers....when he gets one on him, he comes to us so we can squash it.

But the weirdest thing he does is that he will come up to the barn when he needs a nap, stand at the door when we are there and when we come out to pet, scratch, rub him.....he will stand there and literally fall asleep. He loves being rubbed to sleep.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Not an OTTB thing. I am not sure why you would think this? Although some of them do not have as much social experience as normal horses from a young age, it doesn't necessarily translate to aggression.

In fact if anything it is the opposite and when introduced into a herd will often initially find themselves at the bottom of the pecking order being taught a lesson or two by the older horses.

As for the dog thing, some horses hate them, some are scared of them (natural instinct) and some couldn't care less. Either way it has nothing to do with being at the track. I have seen horses of all breeds behave aggressively towards dogs, it is just down to the individual horse. I would take all precautions to protect the dogs as one swift kick and Lassie is done for.

You just have a horse that is dominant in a herd situation and despises dogs, the fact that he raced has little, if anything, to do with it.


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

Aye, and the only thing it has to do with him being an OTTB is that his track background may have something to do with his poorly developed social skills. But any horse who misses out on a proper herd life as a youngster is at risk for not playing nice with others as an adult.


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## Beauseant (Oct 22, 2010)

Sarah, when I asked about it being an OTTB thing, I didn't mean the dog aggression. I was speaking specifically of the human dependence thing. I mean, this horse is really not acting like a horse. he comes off pasture and leaves Epona out in the field just to stand at the barn to lick us. He loves eating hay out of your hand, prefers it actually. He comes to us when he has a horsefly so we can kill it... he comes to us when he is sleepy to be rubbed to sleep....

He sounds more like a dog than a horse. And I know that most horses prefer their own kind to humans. Most. So in this respect, I was wondering if his behaviour has something to do with being an OTTB....and one that very likely was bottle raised.

We actually have to WALK WITH HIM out to the pasture sometimes, or he won't go out, even though epona is already out there filling herself with grass.....He'd rather stand around with us than graze?? They only get six hours grazing time, so it's not like he is tired of the grass or anything. The rest of the time they are on dry lot turnout.
To clarify: oftentimes he would rather hang out with humans in dry lot than go out with Epona on pasture. He will also come in off pasture to eat hay in the dry lot when we are there.

THAT is weird.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

He sounds like a horse that has his humans very well trained. Be careful that you don't treat him like a dog and create a monster. More horses are ruined with "kindness" than are ruined with abuse.


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## Beauseant (Oct 22, 2010)

He's always been like this....it's nothing we've done. 

And prefering human companionship to equine companionship really has nothing to do with "him training us".

Even if we are doing nothing, he will stand with us. Sometimes just sleeping or resting. Other times just staring at us. 

Yesterday I was reading a book to my kids in the barn....he stood at the door and listened to it for half an hour....rather than graze with Epona. 

So don't focus on him wanting to be rubbed to sleep or eating out of our hand, it's bigger than that.

It's a horse that won't graze unless we aren't there and who regularly leaves his equine companion to "hang out" with his human family.

It's about a horse that would rather be read to than graze. you don't think that is odd?


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Beauseant said:


> Sarah, when I asked about it being an OTTB thing, I didn't mean the dog aggression. I was speaking specifically of the human dependence thing. I mean, this horse is really not acting like a horse. he comes off pasture and leaves Epona out in the field just to stand at the barn to lick us. He loves eating hay out of your hand, prefers it actually. He comes to us when he has a horsefly so we can kill it... he comes to us when he is sleepy to be rubbed to sleep....
> 
> He sounds more like a dog than a horse. And I know that most horses prefer their own kind to humans. Most. So in this respect, I was wondering if his behaviour has something to do with being an OTTB....and one that very likely was bottle raised.
> 
> ...


 
Sure, but I feel there is a danger in attributing certain behaviours to the history of the horse as it is not always correct. Similar to saying that you can't pick up a lunge whip in front of a 'rescue' because of the way that they behave.

Some behaviours are common among racehorses but not everything that an OTTB does is directly related to his time at the track, I just wanted to illustrate that point.

ETA: The oddest thing to me about a horse enjoying being read to is the fact that a human is reading to him :wink:


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## tblver (Jul 9, 2011)

My OTTB is the same way. He looooves treats and will come when you call him and is fine around people....but horses, he's out to kill. SOME dogs are OK, he's gotten better about them but he's not a fan.

I think for OTTBs its mostly a lack of socialization combined with a trained competitiveness.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Beauseant (Oct 22, 2010)

sarah, Yes, that is true. I am just trying to figure out why he would rather have a story read to him than graze. WHY? Because it is abnormal. I want him to be a normal horse, and would rather see him grazing with his equine friend than listening to me read a story.:-| And I was wondering if his upbringing, i.e. being a racehorse, could have anything to do with it.

If it does, ok.

If it doesn't, ok.

I was just asking. Nothing more, nothing less. I would like to help him learn to act like a horse, but first I need to figure out why he DOESN'T!


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

Your horse isn't "unnaturally dependent on humans" and there's not anything wrong with him. The only "emotional dependency" I see here is you. You don't ask anything of him and cater to his every whim, so why shouldn't he like being around you? He's got it made in the shade with iced tea to boot!

And yes, the dogs are threatening him…they are entering his territory and barking AT him….size makes no difference. 

IMHO, (Re: other horses) Best guess is he's never been in a mixed herd before. FWIW, she can put a stop to it, if she wanted to. I think the rearing and biting are his way of playing. She'll tolerate it until she decides it's going to stop…then she'll put a stop to it. Truth is, you don't know what happens when you are not around, and unless she's covered in bites, scars and welts, they may be doing just fine when you're not around.

And I have no doubt that while you are there, he wants to be with you…but in the grand scheme of things, you are only there for a short while, so what appears to you like "he'd rather have a story read to him than graze" actually means nothing more than you become the day's entertainment for the time you show up…dinner can be had at anytime, but attention can't! I think you are condensing down a-day-in-the-life-of to only the time you are with him…which is only a short while in a 24-hour period. It isn't that he "does/doesn't" but that you don't see it.


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

deleted - duplicated post!


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## coffeeaddict (Jun 18, 2010)

The horse doesn't seem to be the problem here, the dogs are. If you know this horse has a problem with dogs then they should not be in his pasture. End of story. 

Some horses are fine with dogs barking at them and running around, but a lot are not. Your horse is telling you he is not ok with this. I worry mostly about the old dog that comes to visit, please tell the neighbors that he will get hurt if they continue to allow him to roam off the property. 

I have a 14 yr old Collie that is senile and slow too, and I cannot imagine allowing him to roam the neighborhood. That dog needs to be supervised so he doesn't get lost or killed by the horse.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

I do agree that we're entertainment of a sort for them because they don't see us 24/7/365, like they do their herd mates.

I don't think it has anything to do with a horse being bottle raised, an ex-racer, or the fact that he/she may not have been socialized properly. We're fascinating to them because one, TBs and Arabians are purposely bred to bond with humans, and two, we're a change in their routine.

All 3 of mine follow me around the pasture while I'm mending fence or hauling around manure. I don't flatter myself thinking they're doing it because they love me; they're doing it because it's something they don't normally see in their day to day lives, and it's an event.

I have been known to tell them, 'If you're going to stand around and breathe on me, learn to pick up a hammer or pitchfork!' :wink:


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Beauseant said:


> sarah, Yes, that is true. I am just trying to figure out why he would rather have a story read to him than graze. WHY? Because it is abnormal. I want him to be a normal horse, and would rather see him grazing with his equine friend than listening to me read a story.:-| And I was wondering if his upbringing, i.e. being a racehorse, could have anything to do with it.
> 
> If it does, ok.
> 
> ...


At the risk of flogging a dead horse, I think that your interpretation of his behaviour is geared towards human emotions, rather than anything to do with horse behaviour. I in no way mean to be offensive to you but I really doubt that he is hanging around you because you are reading a book to him.

Horses are naturally curious creatures, some more than others. I have known _many_ horses of _many_ breeds that would rather see what those weird two legged little bearers of treats are doing than graze. His behaviour isn't overly unusual or anything to be concerned about.

I understand that you want him to be a 'normal' horse but what is a 'normal' horse? Would you want your child to stop being a unique individual and behave more like all the other 'normal' children? Probably not.

Like I said, I am not trying to offend but I think you need to stop worrying about teaching your horse to behave like a horse and just accept that he IS acting like a horse, perhaps just a type of horse that YOU haven't encountered before.


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## Beauseant (Oct 22, 2010)

Sorry, horse poor...but it's not like that. He does not do this just b ecause we spoil him if that is what you are saying. He does the same thing, minus the story, to the BO, the BOs husband and the neighbor woman and her two kids. UNFORTUNATELY< like Speed Racer said> I cannot flatter myself into thinking that Beau does this for us and us alone.....he does this to everyone. 

Even when the BOs husband is fixing something in the paddock beau is there, kissing him, nuzzling him, breathing on his neck. He'll stay with the BOs husband as long as he is there. One day he really did pick up a hammer and walk around with it.....havine't taught him to use it yet.

THe BO is constantly reminding him she is a married woman becaucse he licks her ear and breathes in it....

So NO! It is not us being powder puff owners who are letting him train us. SORRY.

He does this to everyone and anyone..... as long as you are a human, you are fantastic and fascinating to him. If you are a horse or dog.....you are a victim of his aggression.

Chickens he is indifferent to. same with deer.

IT is a strictly human thing. As I said, he finds us humans fascinating....so, no flattering myself here, or being able to take the blame for being a powder puff owner trained by their horse. He would try the same with each and every one of you if you walked into his pasture. You would get a soft gray nose on your shoulder and a big, wet tongue upside your face.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

He wouldn't do that to me because I wouldn't let him crowd me or touch me with his mouth.


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## HannahFaith (Apr 27, 2011)

I am short on time so i did not read through the whole thread my apologies if this has already been said. 

I do not think it is your horses fault at all. My horse (recently sold) also an OTTB sounds alot like your little man. except my horse LOVES dogs, until they bark at him, he then pins his ears chases, paws and does all he can to get them . he even jumped out at a low point in the arena to finish chasing the dog home. but with my dog, an extremely well trained "barn dog" knows not to bark at the horses and at all costs do NOT go behind them, run through the cross ties, ect.... So my only thought is, he probably doesn't have dog issues if he wasn't barked at and probably slightly intimidated by these little dogs. i wonder if you could work with the dogs to not bark at him if that would make a little difference over time... If they leave him alone, he's more likely to leave them alone, unless its to late and this yappy dogs have pretty much ruined all dogs for him.. (no offense if they are your dogs or loved dogs. ) 

thats just me. i hope i didnt come off as rude or anything, just my opinion... 

Point of the post :it's the dogs, not the horse.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

^^ totally agree with Kevin! I "wuv my widdle poneh", but let him lick anywhere NEAR my head? NEVER! I now have a "licker" and I do allow him to lick my open hand-that is it, and even that, frankly goes against my better judgement. It is much too easy for it to become a "playful" bite. I will guarantee you it will be painful, even if he is doing it "lovingly" and "playfully". :-|


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Yeah, my horses will get a fist in their muzzle if they try and lick or 'play bite' me. It's bad enough when they stand close enough to get their hot breath all over me. DUDE, it's hot outside! I don't need you_ breathing_ on me! :-x


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## Beauseant (Oct 22, 2010)

And if you showed him that he was NOT to invade your space, he wouldn't. and that would be the end of that. I realize alot of horse owners don't allow nuzzling, licking or kisses....we, however, are not those kind of horse owners. Beau is not invading our space because we ALLOW him into our space. If we were to show him that he wasn't allowed in our space, he wouldn't attempt it. Our Schrake trainer said that if she had a hundred horses to choose from to do a demonstration with at her clinic, she'd choose beau. Our ex BO said he is the most trainable horse she's ever seen. So the issue is not space invasion. We invite him into our space. If he wasn't invited, you wouldn't need a fist, stick or whip to back him off, a simple hand raised up and a firm no, and he backs off. 

So, our way may not be your way....but Beau is very respectful of space, and very obedient. Now, I know alot of you criticize owners like us, and I don't understand it, but there it is. We do things our way, you do them yours....just because we are at opposite ends of the spectrum does NOT mean that this thread needs to be hijacked into a "butterfly kisses" flame war. 

What IS the issue is horse aggression and dog aggression, and I appreciate the comments from those of you who have not strayed into the "powder puff bad horsey owners because your horse licks/kisses you" territory. 

I ask all of you to not stray there as that is not the intent of my post, nor is that type of discussion going to produce anything but off topic arguments.

BACK ON TOPIC; the dog thing is probably unsolvable as the owners will not keep their dog inside 24/7 and the dog will NOT stay out of the horse pasture. So what to do?

The horse aggression thing is confusing. Is he doing it out of aggression, or playfulness, as someone mentioned?? How to tell? Our plan so far is to open up the second pasture 24/7 to give them more room....so if he chases her at least she can get away....unfortunately, the second pasture is grass, though poor in quality since it hasn't rained for months....so epona's weight will have to be monitored.


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## zurmdahl (Feb 25, 2009)

There's nothing you really can do about the dogs, unless you keep him somewhere that the dogs are not. One of the dogs is going to be seriously hurt or killed unless something changes. I would probably separate your two horses as well, but if she has enough room to get away I would think she would be fine so long as he doesn't constantly chase her and never let up. I know my older gelding cannot go out with most other horses, he will try and seriously hurt them. He's always been like that though, he's a quarter horse from a ranch somewhere so I know very little about his past. I would love to know why he is the way he is though. He's not lovey to people either, he's very indifferent but certainly not aggressive towards us, it's strange.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

How long has your horse been out with this mare? It may well be that they will calm down once they are used to each other. 

As far as the dogs, you have to keep them out - saying 'I can't' is not an option. You need to change your fencing if you cannot control the owners.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Just to add more cases where this shows your horse as being NORMAL 

We have an Appaloosa mare at work. She's on her way to being 6 and she has to be completely seperate from the other herd. She is the sweetest thing in the world to people but when dogs or cats or HORSES come near her, she bucks and rears and bites them, kicks them, drives them off.. won't let them eat.. runs them into trees.. traps them.. tries to stomp on the dogs. She's a MONSTER!

It's just how she is, she was a feral horse as a baby and she's just ooozing full of instincts  But she is perfectly happy having her very own pen


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

So what's the problem? 

Is he so aggressive towards other horses that he poses a danger to himself or others? Or is he just pushy and dominant, but not particularly dangerous about it? If the former, then there's nothing you can do besides make sure he knows he can't attack other horses when you're working with him and keeping him separated from them, and if the latter, who cares?

Your guy isn't that abnormal. Many horses out there were inadequately socialized with their own species as youngsters but had plenty of interaction with people.


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## HannahFaith (Apr 27, 2011)

If the dogs are not your dogs, i'd say tell the owners that they need to control the dogs or they could be seriously hurt or killed. after you warn them i'd see if you could some how add some sort of fencing to the lower part so the dogs cannot get in. If i were you i'd find some way to get some sort of paper work signed saying the owner is aware that by not controlling her dogs they could be hurt and you are NOT held responsible because you tried to warn her. that was on our board agreement. if the owner does not want to control her dogs or train them to be around horses, if a horse paws, bites, kicks, or anything at these dogs because they are untrained, it is not your horses fault. Personally i love having barn dogs! BUT they better be some well behaved dogs. if your dog runs up behind my horse and my horse kicks him, it is YOUR dogs fault for not being trained to be aware of the back side of a horse. if your dog runs up and nips at my horses feet and my horse strikes and hits him, its your dogs fault. same goes for my dog. i let her get stepped on by horses so she learned her space. she's also a 75 pound dog who didnt get destroyed when stepped on.... but she learned after being nipped, pawed at and stepped on... haha


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## Beauseant (Oct 22, 2010)

Thanks everyone for your suggestions. I am going to ask the BOs about some fencing/mesh for around the lower part of the pasture....I really like this old dog, his name is Max. He is a fat, ancient, lovable and slow in body and mind black Lab...and I don't want him hurt. The other two dogs are the BOs dogs, one is a little male spitz type dog who stays away from Beau since he almost(and I DO mean almost) got squashed. the other BO dog is a border collie female who is a bit more fiesty, and keeps her distance most of the time. Even so, if she's in his pasture and Beau goes after her, she will listen to commands and when we or the BO say OUT, she goes out. Max on the other hand, does NOT obey commands and since he weighs 135 lbs, lifting him or moving him is out of the question. 

As for his "fits" with epona, I cannot tell if they are stallion oriented, playful or aggressive. The next time it happens I will take a video and post it here for opinions....

It is not constant, it happens a few times a week...that we know of. sometimes they get along pretty good....

I have noticed that she seems to be constantly "in her cycle". she is always lifting her tail and "winking".....


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

If you honestly don't know whether the behaviour is playful or aggressive, it probably is just normal horsey dominance stuff. Aggression that I would consider dangerous and requiring separation is pretty unambiguous. For example, my horse used to take particular delight in chasing a horse she had it in for into a corner of the field and once she'd pinned it, she'd turn her butt to it and double barrel, repeatedly. Or she would just suddenly charge horses for no apparent reason (they would be grazing quietly away -- not invading her space, though woe betide them if they did) and then whirl around and double barrel them. As you can see, she was a fan of the double barrel kick. Quite scary and over the top aggression by any standards. That's how one loses "group turnout" privileges.


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## Beauseant (Oct 22, 2010)

The bad news, sileverspear, is that for some horses the line between play and aggression IS NOT clear.

Beau was PLAYING with our ex BOs gelding for about 15 minutes, when all of a sudden there was a loud crash as they crashed into the wall, and hooves started flying and her horse ended up with a laceration across his cannon bone.

All this as we were standing there watching them...play. You may think I'm stupid because I can't tell play from aggression, but the ex BO is a dressage competitor, eventer, twice accreddited horse trainer and riding instructor, barn manager, now barn owner and has been in the horse business for 30 yrs., specifically dealing with off track TBs....and SHE couldn't tell the difference either. 

SO, for some horses, the line between play and aggression isnt so well delineated. The horse can't tell the difference and neither can those watching them...until it is too late. .... Even if they are seasoned, long time horse owners, trainers and competitors.

Nor is that line written in stone for horses like Beau. One minute he was SEEMINGLY fine playing with the other horse, who is non dominant. The next minute SOMETHING the other horse did set Beau off....and play turned to aggression before anyone knew what had happened.

In summation: a horse like Beau, lacking horse on horse social skills, is going to naturally lack horse on horse play skills. So when he is being playful vs. aggressive is not clear cut to those watching him, nor is it constant. For Beau, play can become aggression in a nano second. 

The consequence of this event is that Beau was NEVER allowed in with any of her horses again. Because even a seasoned horse person like herself could not know when he would turn from seemingly harmless play to dangerous aggression with another horse. And she doubted he even knew the difference between the two. 


If she can't tell the difference, and HE can't tell the difference, then certainly I can't tell the difference...
Thanks.


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

Yes. That happens in a lot of domestic herds. It is just horses, to an extent. I suppose one needs to decide where they draw the line and decide that the horse needs to be kept on individual turn-out or kept away from a horse they're bullying. Individual turnout is not an ideal solution but sometimes a necessary one. The question I thought you were asking was whether or not there was anything, training-wise, you could do about his behaviour towards the mare. If there is an answer, I'd be all over it but my experience is that they are going to do whatever they are going to do in the pasture and all you can do is manage which and how many fences they are behind, the size of the field, and a few other issues, like how you're feeding them. For example, are they being fed their hard feed in the field or in stables? Are they grazing in a pasture or dry-lotted and being fed hay? If food seems to be a finite resource, more aggression issues can emerge. 

That all said, a solution that can work for more borderline horses, who aren't so extremely dominant and aggressive they're just too dangerous but still have boundary issues with other horses, is to put them in a stable herd, one with a relatively stable hierarchy and a strong (but not mean. there is a difference) alpha horse. Some of them, even as adults, can acquire equine social skills this way. Of course, one needs such a herd available so it is not always an option.


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## Beauseant (Oct 22, 2010)

Yes, Your are right....sometimes a horse just needs individual turnout. We decided that Beau was not going to do well in a group, and when we were looking for a boarding facility, we were upfront with the people, telling them this horse MUST have private turnout (with Epona only). 
One facility was going to turn Beau out with three older horse, mixed gelding and mares,all over 20 yrs. old, with one horse being 28 yrs. old...I promptly explained the situation and they were very glad I was upfront with them. Beau in a group of geriatric horses would be a very very bad situation. For many reasons, one of which is he loves to herd other horses, and can run them from 5 minutes to 20 minutes. 

Other facility owners were very blase about our warnings, saying things like "I'll put him in with sharky and sharky will teach him a lesson". I promptly left those type facilities. Horse aggression is NOT a game in my book...We do not live in the phillipines or korea, where people fight horses for fun.....then eat them afterwards. Horse on horse aggression is something I take seriously. For everyone's sake. 

Luckily for us, where we are now has 23 acres of pastures, so we can move them about and open up pastures to make more space, and even split them up if we have to...and there are no other horses anywhere in the vicinity for him to get all excited/upset about....just him and Epona.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Putting him with a more dominant horse would probably be very good for him. As long as there is plenty of room to move away horses rarely injure each other. They may lose some hair or a bit of skin but that's usually all that happens.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

Soda has similar aggression issues with other horses and acts pretty similarly around people. He isn't aggressive towards other animals, I've actually seen him "play" with the dogs and licking the barn cats before (weirdo). 

I "solved" the horse aggression issue by keeping him in with only mares (less aggressive towards them), not allowing the herd to change often, and lessening resource competition. This winter he may or may not be separated from Lily again depending on how he reacts. He does get less aggressive towards horses as time goes on, so it's possible Beau will get better with Epona.


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