# Worm woes-help me identify *with somewhat graphic pic*



## Northernstar (Jul 23, 2011)

I think you're making an excellent decision by having your vet do a fecal egg count - I had those done regularly last year after bringing my QH home, and the 1st one showed a very high count (no sign of worms - just did the count as a precaution). My vet had me give her Quest, then bring in another sample a few weeks later. Voila! The count was way down and at a normal level. Hope things get resolved for your girl, and the best of luck to you!


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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

My vet recommends Panacur Powerpac once a year. It kills off everything. It is a 57gram tube given 5 days in a row.

When you can actually see them coming out that usually means they are full of worms and at that stage one tube of dewormer will only kill off a small percentage.


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

Powerpak is great. We just used it on my daughters new barrel horse. He had been wormed with Eqvalan and still was ribby... Teeth done, etc. Used the Powerpak on him, he is already gaining weight and looking so much better after a week.


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## shaggy (Dec 8, 2010)

if she's full of worms powerpck can be dangerous and cause impaction colic so be careful with that stuff


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

What Shaggy said - if you're seeing worms, she is full them and that makes Powerpacking dangerous. Don't do it:-|

Ditto having the vet do a fecal count and *let the vet tell you what and how much to use to worm her.*

In The Old Days, vets would tube extremely wormy horses - I don't know if that is still done or not. I had to have it done with an auction horse I bought, back in the early 70's:-(

At any rate, the vet needs to control this horse's worming for now

In spite of what the BO says, I don't believe the BO practices what Thy Preaches when it comes to sticking to a worming schedule. I have a hard time believing you are seeing worms if it's been wormed on time-every time:-(


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*worms*

Having the fecal egg count is the right way to go as it will give the info on what type of worms your horse has in its digestive system
It is correct that killing off huge numbers of worms in one go can cause an obstruction so you do need to be careful
Its hard to identify the worm from the pic (yuk), it could even be a tapeworm segment
Its really important to use a wormer with a different active ingredient each time you worm as this helps against building up a resistance to a particular chemical and also targets particular worms that are more likely to be eradicated by some products than others which is why the egg counts are such a good idea though it needs a blood test to show presence of encysted worms. Quarterly worming should be sufficient. Most vets are now in line with current research that indicates that daily worming with the same product is the biggest cause of resistant worms and should be avoided
Tests in the UK have highlighted a widespread resistance to Fenbendazole which is the active ingredient in Panacur Powerpac so if this is used follow up fecal egg counts should be done as it may have had no effect


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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

Well since Powerpac is the only dewormer on the market that kills a very widespread range of worms, please tell me how you would go about getting rid of all the worms in an infested horse?

When I got my mare in January she had been on the 8 week rotation of deworming. Come June we find out she is infested with worms. It doesn't matter the schedule if the worms were never properly taken care of in the first place. It is very easy for a horse that is on a rotational schedule to become infested with worms if they had them when the schedule was started.

My mare was given Powerpac when she was infested with them. The vet, after drawing blood and an exam, concluded this to be the best way. She never even got runny poo. 

Now I'm not saying that everyone should go out and give their horse this stuff. I recommend talking with your vet as to if this is the best option. I do not see why people get their feathers all ruffled up over deworming. It's a simple concept, if the horse has worms, get rid of them. 

If you have an alternative to get rid of the worms completely, please tell. As of now I haven't found a product in the US that does what powerpac does.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

poppy1356 said:


> Well since Powerpac is the only dewormer on the market that kills a very widespread range of worms, please tell me how you would go about getting rid of all the worms in an infested horse?
> 
> When I got my mare in January she had been on the 8 week rotation of deworming. Come June we find out she is infested with worms. It doesn't matter the schedule if the worms were never properly taken care of in the first place. It is very easy for a horse that is on a rotational schedule to become infested with worms if they had them when the schedule was started.
> 
> ...


The operative in your thoughts was


> The vet, after drawing blood and an exam, concluded this to be the best way.


The vet made that very crucial decision - you didn't take it upon yourself to just do it

Whilte I don't think it's common, I have read of more than one rescue horse that has died from impaction as a result of Powerpacking them. 

I would never Powerpac a horse without getting the vet involved to determine whether or not that method is safe for that particular horse


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## aforred (May 12, 2010)

It is not the PowerPac in itself that is dangerous. Killing very large numbers of worms at one time is dangerous, and that is why a vet, preferrably an equine vet, should be involved.

A few years ago, my trainer lost a horse to impaction colic. The impaction was a mass of dead worms, killed by a dose of ivermectin.


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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

Yes, that was the point I was trying to make. There's no reason to be afraid of using this product, it is very effective, but you should have a vet involved. And it's always good to have questions to ask your vet, for instance asking if this product would be a good idea. 

I don't change anything in my horses diet/life without at least calling the vet to get their opinion first.

Edit: My vet also said we had to wait on blood results to determine if she would be able to handle the Powerpac, so a blood draw will most likely be done, if for nothing else to see how the worms have affected the organs.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Just did some reading on these nasty little critters.

Due to their lifestyle, adults live in the large intestine, sbd females emerge to deposit up to 60000 eggs at a time around the anus, a fecal will probably not detect them. A piece of clear sticky tape stuck to the yellowish crusts will.
These crusts are the cause for the itching and subsequent tail rubbing, where they end up on the surface the horse rubbed on, or fall to the ground where the horse pics them up when searching for food. 

Any type of dewormer kills the adults, according to recent studies.
For relieving the itch, papertowels and warm water will work.
Aside from dewormer, cleaning waterbuckets, feeder, the wall where the horse rubbed against and the stall(fresh bedding) is very important, since that's where the eggs are lurking.
If it was my horse, I'd do the dewormer myself, clean well and have the horse on a regular deworming schedule. 
It takes 5 months for the eggs to develop into adults. Your horse probably reinfested herself.

Since she has been dewormed before I doubt there is any danger for colic. But I'd ask my vet, just to be safe


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The blood test is only used to detect changes in the horses blood that indicate encysted worms and also tapeworms which mostly dont appear in fecal counts as they tend to stay attached to the lining. A fecal count shows what worms are actually present in the stomach and digestive system - these are the ones that in large numbers are a high risk of causing a blockage
When you buy any horse you can only trust that the previous owners have followed a correct worming pattern - you have no proof of it and if I bought a horse that I found to be heavily infested then I would seriously doubt that it had been wormed at all or that it had been wormed constantly with the same active ingredient and the worms were resistant to it - which isn't correct worming procedure
Febendazole will not kill tapeworm - or anything that has built up a resistance to it though it should still be effective against encysted worms.
This link gives all of the current active chemicals used in wormers
Active Chemical Ingredients in Wormers - Wormers Direct


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## Super Nova (Apr 27, 2010)

poppy1356 said:


> Well since Powerpac is the only dewormer on the market that kills a very widespread range of worms, please tell me how you would go about getting rid of all the worms in an infested horse?
> 
> When I got my mare in January she had been on the 8 week rotation of deworming. Come June we find out she is infested with worms. It doesn't matter the schedule if the worms were never properly taken care of in the first place. It is very easy for a horse that is on a rotational schedule to become infested with worms if they had them when the schedule was started.
> 
> ...


What you have described sounds like a resistance problem.....in other words the worms have changed their physical make up so that the wormer is no longer affective and you need to use a different wormer.

So you need to do a fecal count prior to worming and then two weeks after worming do another one to see how many you killed.....there should be a significant change in the count...perferably zero......if not you need to go to a different wormer.

I would recommend you go to thehorse.com and read all you can about worming.

Super Nova


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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

Super Nova said:


> What you have described sounds like a resistance problem.....in other words the worms have changed their physical make up so that the wormer is no longer affective and you need to use a different wormer.
> 
> So you need to do a fecal count prior to worming and then two weeks after worming do another one to see how many you killed.....there should be a significant change in the count...perferably zero......if not you need to go to a different wormer.
> 
> ...


My horse didn't have a resistance problem. She was never dewormed for 18 years and when you just start on a deworming schedule without first killing off all the worms the regular dewormers do nothing.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*Desertwoman* Were you talking about pinworms? 
Could well be them
Equine Vet Blog: COW: Pinworms

They have become an increasing problem as they are very resistant to wormers - one of the causes of tail scratching that gets overlooked

Am I right in thinking that people can also get them?


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

Thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts. Fecal sample dropped off this morning, as well as a "scraping" of the yellow crust and a couple of partial worms pulled off of her this morning. As many have suggested, I'm working with the vet closely and will definitely be taking his advice about next steps. I just came here to see if anyone had experienced anything similar, as I am trying to learn all I can about what might be going on (I've read everything I can find about worms in the past couple of weeks, I'm on worm overload myself right now!)

I guess what I'm just having trouble understanding is how she could be loaded with worms. She's been at the same barn for 2+ years, all the horses there have been on a quarterly, rotational schedule; this is the first I've ever noticed the problem (even though my ownership just began a couple of months ago, I was leasing her previously); and no other horses are showing symptoms. While I have not been the one personally deworming her during this time (though you can bet I will be from now on!!), if the previous BM was letting horses get off schedule, wouldn't other horses be having similar problems? It just kills me to think that she's literally infested right now and it could have been prevented.


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

jaydee said:


> *Desertwoman* Were you talking about pinworms?
> Could well be them
> Equine Vet Blog: COW: Pinworms
> 
> ...


Jaydee, pinworms have been my very amateur guess, based on everything I've read, particularly the yellow crusty deposits.

People can get pinworms, and early on in this experience, I convinced myself that I had them  However, all my reading has indicated that horses get horse pinworms, and people get human pinworms. Anyone with a medical background can correct this assumption if it's wrong...


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## aforred (May 12, 2010)

If you were to test every horse on the farm, you would find that about 20% of the horses carry 80% of the worms. There was a good article on this at thehorse.com.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

Yes what aforred said my vet also told me.

Also like I said before, it doesn't matter the schedule if the original worms were never killed in the first place. A regular schedule if put in place on a horse that is loaded with worms will only kill a portion of them.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Jaydee....yes, im sure it's pinworms. And yes, people get them too.

Egrogan....as I said above, it is VERY important to clean her stall properly as the eggs are probably all over the place in there. That's the main problem. They get picked up by the horse continually when not taken care off. The dewormer, any dewormer, kills only the adults present in the horse. And if your horse has been at the place for two years at least, and had the same stall all the time, it very well could be she's the only one infested.
Ask your vet what he suggests to use for cleaning.

And keep us updated


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

Deserthorse-You make a good point about what's left behind in the stall. She's been in this particular stall for ~6 months now, not the entire time she's been at the barn.

Their stalls are rubber-matted, and the stalls are well picked, with shavings added, daily. They are completed stripped, with a drying agent put down, every Sunday. To my knowledge though, there is never a disinfectant used (bleach?) so that is something I will have to look into.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Bleach I don't know, like I said, ask your vet on what to use. 
Important is to clean everything she could rub her behind on, walls, feeders, waterers, anything at that height...and below. The worms just sit there waiting to be ingested. 
And maybe the horse before had them and it was never detected.
Worms are Hardy and pretty ingenious little creatures;-)


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## aforred (May 12, 2010)

Bleach is not the best for disinfecting. There are products specifically for disinfecting stalls. I'll see if I can fond one and post a link.


Here's one. I know there are several others.

http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=302ce3af-9599-46a7-9889-ae047bdec8a7&gas=Stall%20cleaner


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## aforred (May 12, 2010)

Here's a good article on disinfecting things for horses.

The Horse | Disinfecting Barns & Stalls
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Bleach reacts with urine to give off a really nasty gas and since horses pee a lot this could be a serious health risk


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

Thanks guys for the resources on stall cleaning. This horse ownership thing is sure a humbling experience- there's so much to learn!!


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

egrogan said:


> Thanks guys for the resources on stall cleaning. This horse ownership thing is sure a humbling experience- there's so much to learn!!


The modern era of horse health issues can sometimes be overwhelming to us long-time horse owners.

I sure wouldn't want to start fresh in the horse world today:-(

I would also be sure to ask the vet about wormer resistance, where your horse is concerned.

Hang in there and please let us all know what the vet says. In a way we all have a vested interest because we all deal with worms 

I should not be eating a bowl of rice at this moment---------------:shock:


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Walkinthewalk........bowl of rice.....those are kitty tapeworms.....a whole other story I could tell........


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

deserthorsewoman said:


> Walkinthewalk........bowl of rice.....those are kitty tapeworms.....a whole other story I could tell........


Ack! Nohhhhh don't say it---------------------lollollol


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> Walkinthewalk........bowl of rice.....those are kitty tapeworms.....a whole other story I could tell........


 You are one evil woman
I know what we WONT be having for dinner this week!!!!!


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Eeeeeeck...........didn't mean to spoil the menue plan.......*looking REALLY innocent now*


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## tealamutt (Aug 21, 2009)

poppy1356 said:


> My vet recommends Panacur Powerpac once a year. It kills off everything. It is a 57gram tube given 5 days in a row.
> 
> When you can actually see them coming out that usually means they are full of worms and at that stage one tube of dewormer will only kill off a small percentage.


Powerpacs do not kill tapeworms which are still a concern, in fact we are seeing more and more problems with them. Make sure you include praziquantel once yearly to get tapes. Also, powerpac in the face of a huge ascarid load can be harmful. As others have said, best to have fecals run first and deworm under the guidance of a vet if there is a large worm burden.


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## tealamutt (Aug 21, 2009)

jaydee said:


> *Desertwoman* Were you talking about pinworms?
> Could well be them
> Equine Vet Blog: COW: Pinworms
> 
> ...


Yes people can get them, but not from horses. They are not zoonotic, we have our own kind of pinworms.


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

**Update**

Hi everyone- back with an update. My overall summary is that this is the first time I've been dissatisfied with the service from my vet's office. I dropped the fecal sample off over two weeks ago, and no one ever contacted me with results. I finally called them today, and they've had the results in for a few days now but never called. The sample came back clear, which I suppose is not entirely surprising if the worms are in fact pinworms.

When I dropped off the sample, I also brought samples of the adult worms. However, they were mysteriously lost, so no one can actually tell me if they were in fact pinworms vs. tapeworms. So I still don't really know what I'm dealing with. But they told me to bring in another sample (frustrating).

Despite that, the vet had two recommendations: 1. Do the Powerpak, which would kill either tapeworms or pinworms. 2. Thoroughly wash her stall and wash her under-tail area for the next couple of weeks.

After getting advice here, I asked if I should be concerned of colic risk doing the Powerpak. The vet's response (communicated through her secretary) was that "Powerpak has no more colic risk than any other dewormer." When I asked how I could tell if my horse was so loaded up with worms that any dewormer would be a colic risk, the secretary couldn't answer. I also am not clear on when I should do the Powerpak- tomorrow? or not until the next scheduled date in the deworming cycle? Finally, I didn't get any advice on what to wash down the stall with.

I think I need to call back tomorrow and just get the actual vet on the phone, but this has been very frustrating. I can't seem to get an answer specific to my horse, vs. generic information I can read myself online.

I'll just close by thanking everyone who posted on this thread- you at least helped me know what questions to ask. Even if I'm still trying to get the answers! :?


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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

Ok first as Telamut said, powerpak will not kill the tapeworms, I forgot to mention that earlier. This is why I just dewormed with Zimecterin Gold or however it is spelled. If the test actually came back clear I would venture to guess there wouldn't be a very big colic risk in using the powerpak. 

Since tapeworms or pinworms are the main concern I would deworm with the wormer I mentioned above or Equimax today or tomorrow, whenever you pick it up, then after frost, about Novemeber now to give a bit of time between to be easier on stomache, I would give the Powerpak.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Change your vet - that is not good service.
If no worms showed up in the fecal sample then there should be less risk of a massive shedding of dead worms that are likely to cause a blockage
I think that pin worms seemed to be the most likely culprit and the Panacur will kill them off though if you have been previously using any wormer with the active ingredient in panacur chances are the worms have developed a resistance to it which is why you have this problem. If you are worried about a blockage risk then use a normal panacur and do her again in a week - check her poos for dead worms. You should worm with an Ivermectin based wormer after the last frosts for bots which also dont show up on a fecal count. 
The powerpack wont kill tapeworms but I'd see what the results are from the Panacur worming before you cross that bridge


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

I'd do Equimax or Zimecterin Gold, in case she does have tapeworms. And I'd do it now. 
Im convinced it's pinworms, tapeworm segments you'd find in the poo, no fecal test catches them. 
There should be not much risk giving a dewormer if the test came back negative.
Then I'd do another ivermectin wormer after the first frost for the bots. After that I'd do fecal and only deworm if it comes up positive.
A relatively safe way to worm is doing it first thing in the morning before feeding, so if anything should happen somebody will catch it right away.
Oh, and I'd ask the vet a few questions too and depending on the answers I'd change vet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

I'm going to give the vet's office the benefit of the doubt for one more day. It's a practice with 4 equine vets, but my usual vet wasn't the one in the office and I was getting this advice from a vet I don't know who was the person available. I'm going to call my usual vet directly tomorrow (rather than his office), and see if he can give more helpful answers to my specific questions. He has been so wonderful in so many other scenarios, I'm not ready to scrap the whole practice just yet.

But keep the advice coming-this will help me have an educated conversation with him tomorrow.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

There is a ton of articles and research on The Horse: Your Guide to Equine Health Care
Just sign up and search. Great articles about deworming, drug resistance and a million other things. It's free. And you can sign up for several newsletters too
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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