# Not Possible, Right?



## Canuck (May 6, 2012)

So the other day someone called my filly a " grullo buckskin." Since I'm not exactly an expert in colour genetics, am I right thinking thats not possible? ( Feel free to start correcting me now,:wink:.) Because buckskin is a bay horse+ cream gene, and grullo is black horse+ dun gene, right? So it would either have to be a dunskin or a smoky grullo, not a grullo buckskin,correct?

Also, here is a couple photos of said filly. I think she's going to be gray. What do you think? ( Note these photos were taken later in the day, she usually isn't that golden coloured.)
A little bit of info: her dam was gray, and her sire is unknown.


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## OutOfTheLoop (Apr 1, 2012)

Cant be both buckskin and.grullo. Is there a dorsal stripe?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

looks to me like a Brownskin which is Brown + Cream, if she has a dorsal then it would be a Brown Dunskin? haha


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## Tintara (May 27, 2012)

You are entirely correct with the explanation of buckskin and grulla. She appears to be a buckskin in these photos. Can't see any sign of the grey tho. I'd expect to see a bit more greying out around the muzzle and eyes than she is showing. Mind you, some horses take years to grey out. A good indicator would have been her feet at birth. Dilutes carrying grey tend to have black feet at birth whereas a standard dilute foal (not carrying grey) has pinkish coloured or grey feet because of their dilution.


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## Canuck (May 6, 2012)

Well, we got her when she was only two months old ( with her mom of course), so I'm not 100% what colour she was born. I can post photos of her from 2 months to now if that will help. I'll try and not go overboard.


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## Jewelsb (May 8, 2012)

Pics! But I think I see they greying in her face! She looks buckskin In The pics but looks like she is going to turn grey!


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## Canuck (May 6, 2012)

So,I went overboard. :shock:Sorry the pics are huge.
2 months

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6 months

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March:


































April: ( She shedded her winter coat, turned a phony blue roan colour, and this picture is when she started shedding it out)










May

:








Beginning of June:Its gotten more prominent now, but she wasn't born with it.










And the opening photos were taken just last week.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

What color were her sire and dam?


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

"A little bit of info: her dam was gray, and her sire is unknown. "

fROM THE ORIGINAL POST


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

*facepalm* that's what I get for skimming. ETA Texas there was no need to "yell"

OP - At this point she looks roan, but she could very well be grey as well. Do you have current pictures where she isn't swishing her tail and is clearly visible? Her dorsal is counter shading and not caused by dun. IMO she brown, not grulla or buckskin. She may or may not have cream and may or may not be grey.


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

My apologies .. I wrote on the fly and didn't realize my caps were on.. lol.

I never yell ... sorry again.


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## Canuck (May 6, 2012)

NdAppy-I'll take some pics later today. in the meantime I'll see what other pics I can find that will help.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

No worries texas. :grin: It happens.

Awesome Canuck. Can't wait to see more.


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## Canuck (May 6, 2012)

Here is a couple more pics that might help.The last one shows her countershading a bit.


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

I actually think she's greying.

That's the oddest color ever.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

Buckskin roan that is greying out. I definately see buckskin, the winter shedding pictures are exactly how a roan would go and she's got somthing else weird going on, my guess being grey.


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## rhavennah (Jun 19, 2012)

horses can have both dun and creme...they are different genes

grullo = dun on a black horse
dun/bay dun = dun on a bay horse
red dun = dun on a chestnut horse

dunalino = dun on a palomino horse
dunskin = dun on a buckskin
smokey grullo = dun on a smokey black (at least that's what its called that i've heard)

that horse looks like a buckskin with either a roan factor or a sooty gene, possibly greying out...to me at least (buckskins do occasionally have dorsal stripes without any dun gene at all)


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

IMO brown, not bay under everything. The indicators are there for brown that aren't there on bays.


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## Canuck (May 6, 2012)

Pics from today ( have about 50 more if needed, lol)


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## rhavennah (Jun 19, 2012)

i still think she's a buckskin...maybe with a sooty factor

i've heard some people call it a "muddy" buckskin, but i have a soft spot for sooty buckskins...the stallion i most adored was one


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

rhavennah said:


> i still think she's a buckskin...maybe with a sooty factor
> 
> i've heard some people call it a "muddy" buckskin, but i have a soft spot for sooty buckskins...the stallion i most adored was one


Most "sooty" "muddy" or "smutty" buckskins are actually brown based buckskins.


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## rhavennah (Jun 19, 2012)

Chiilaa said:


> Most "sooty" "muddy" or "smutty" buckskins are actually brown based buckskins.


ok? that doesn't preclude them being a buckskin...


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## Nokotaheaven (Apr 11, 2012)

Ok, if there is such a thing as brown based buckskin/duns, how did they wind up with black points then? Just curious


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## Nokotaheaven (Apr 11, 2012)

To add to my last comment..
I know cream makes them buckskin and stuff, but a true brown wouldn't have black legs, manes or tails, because then it'd be a dark bay


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Nokotaheaven said:


> Ok, if there is such a thing as brown based buckskin/duns, how did they wind up with black points then? Just curious


I need this saved to cut and paste to every person who asks this lol

Brown is a variant of bay. They are different mutations of the same gene. They BOTH cause black points on the horse. That is not how they differ! Brown differs from bay in the way it causes the soft points of the horse to be much lighter than bay does. Brown can, and does, cause black points!


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## Nokotaheaven (Apr 11, 2012)

Chiilaa said:


> I need this saved to cut and paste to every person who asks this lol
> 
> Brown is a variant of bay. They are different mutations of the same gene. They BOTH cause black points on the horse. That is not how they differ! Brown differs from bay in the way it causes the soft points of the horse to be much lighter than bay does. Brown can, and does, cause black points!


Ohh okay lol, thank you


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Also, OP. I am beginning to lean towards brown based buckskin roan, not going grey. Her baby photos don't indicate grey to me. I could be wrong about the grey part, but she doesn't look it to me.


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## Canuck (May 6, 2012)

Chiilaa said:


> Also, OP. I am beginning to lean towards brown based buckskin roan, not going grey. Her baby photos don't indicate grey to me. I could be wrong about the grey part, but she doesn't look it to me.


 
Cool.:lol: I'll sure have fun explaining that to people, especially the person who called her a "grullo buckskin,"lol. I just thought gray because she has quite a few gray hairs on her face, and that she still has the weird white patch on her neck.


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## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

i am therefore Brown + cream = Brown Buckskin, however i am still iffy on whether she is roan or Greying, if she has white hairs on the face then i am leaning more towards grey, and she just has that grey look about her.


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## BarrelRacingLvr (Feb 26, 2012)

Neither......she is grey. You can see the grey throughout her coat and her face. She is greying out.


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

I'm fairly certain she is brown based and roan.

I'm less certain about the presence of a cream gene (which often doesn't show up very strongly on brown anyway). I don't think she's gray: I don't see any graying in the tail, and the face has an amount of white hairs consistent with a roan.

As always, only genetic testing can tell us for sure! (Well, except for the gray... that will become pretty obvious on its own without genetic testing!)


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

verona1016 said:


> the face has an amount of white hairs consistent with a roan.


Roaning doesn't affect the face. The face stays dark. Same with the points.


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

Roan does affect the face, just not as strongly as the body.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

No it doesn't typically touch the face. True roan tends to avoid the face and lower legs. 

Appaloosa or varnish roan does act on the face and lower legs and is progressive.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

IF she greys, only time will tell.  I would just call her a dun. When you brush her, what color is the loose hair, tip to root? They only way to find out for sure is to have her tested.


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

NdAppy said:


> No it doesn't typically touch the face. True roan tends to avoid the face and lower legs.
> 
> Appaloosa or varnish roan does act on the face and lower legs and is progressive.


Interesting... I guess the "roan" horse at my barn must really be a varnish roan!


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

stevenson said:


> IF she greys, only time will tell.  I would just call her a dun. When you brush her, what color is the loose hair, tip to root? They only way to find out for sure is to have her tested.


Why would you call her a dun? Why? What reason would you call a horse dun when they aren't? Please share!


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## Tintara (May 27, 2012)

Have her DNA tested for grey (and cream) *if you want to know for sure :thumbsup:*. We can theorize on here all day about what she is or isn't but at the end of the day that's all it is - theories and opinions. Which is great for discussion and social purposes but if you want a definitive answer ....

There is also a test for roan but I think it is breed specific at the moment unless there have been some recent advances with research.


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## OutOfTheLoop (Apr 1, 2012)

I don't think the horse is dun at all. Maybe a greying buckskin.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Canuck (May 6, 2012)

I'll look into her getting tested. I'm not dying to know either, so no rush.  Also, I know for sure she is not dun because she wasn't born with a dorsal stripe.
The photo was taken at 6 months, when she had that weird mohawk going down her back for nearly 5 months or more.


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

She kind of looks like our baby Faith. She's is a registered grey, and right now she is in the rose grey stage. Most people would think she was a bay roan though just by looking at her.


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## Canuck (May 6, 2012)

You happen to have any pics of Faith? Just to compare and learn, please.


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

This is Faith (I guess she doesn't look as much like yours kid as I thought). We've had her about 7 months. We got her as a yearling.
The 1st picture was about 4 months ago (she still had her winter coat). The rest are from today. She's greying fast. You can see she has a lot of grey around her eyes and face. Sorry the picts are terrible.


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## ThirteenAcres (Apr 27, 2012)

She's a gorgeous, stout little filly. I really like her. When I scrolled through the first 2 pics I immediately was confident in saying a brownskin. And the farther I scrolled the more interesting it becomes! Don't you just love one that will keep fooling you?

I'd love to see her test results myself. And her butt-hawk is ADORABLE!


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## Canuck (May 6, 2012)

Thanks for the compliments And yes, her butt-hawk is awesome, lol. I'll look into getting her tested in the near future depending on things pan out.


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## Nokotaheaven (Apr 11, 2012)

when i can ill post pics of my girl too, because she's a grulla greying out the same way


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## WickedNag (Sep 7, 2010)

From what I understand a grulla, roan etc will have dark heads. No grulla here or roan imo.


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## Canuck (May 6, 2012)

Flytobecat- Faith and Rosie look really similar( in colour), then I had orginially thought.Especially in your second pic and this one.


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