# Tizwhiz Structure VS. Purina Strategy



## kickshaw (May 7, 2008)

if it works, why change it??

here's my .02: 

i like companies that put their ingredients on their website (purina has never done that) - - read the tag once to my 13.00 bag of Purina senior to find out it had PEANUT HULLS in it (!) - i now use a different brand 

i like the guaranteed analysis on the TizWhiz - although I have never fed TizWhiz grains...I know purina's stuff does not offer the same vitamins that are found in TizWhiz. I also like that the TizWhiz has a (even if slight) higher fat content than the strategy...


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## minihorse927 (Aug 11, 2008)

Just to add into my earlier post. One of these horses is an extremely hard keeper due to having a ulcer and a hyperactive thyroid. I think this stallion is in a body condition score of 4 to 4.5 on the 0-9 scale. He is currently eating 1 lb 8 oz of strategy, 2 oz of weight builder, 1 scoop of super 14, and 1 oz cocosoya oil. Just to add in this is a miniature horse around 220lbs currently. 

This is the definition for body score 4 for those of you who do not know or use the 0-5 scale...
Body score 4 = Moderately Thin: Neck, withers and shoulders are not obviously thin. Ribs are faintly discernible. Point of hips and buttocks are not visually discernible. Fat can be felt around the tailhead, prominence somewhat dependent upon conformation. There is a slight negative crease (a ridge) along the topline, especially over the loins and hindquarters.


The AM feeding goes 
1lb 8oz of strategy
2 small flakes of local grass hay (this is split as he is stalled with a mare)

The PM feeding goes 
1lb 8 oz of strategy
2 oz weight builder farnam brand (weight)
1 enclosed scoop of super 14 (skin and coat)
1 oz cocosoya oil (skin and coat, weight)
2 flakes of local grass hay (same as above)

I try to also keep hay in with these two as much as I can since he has a ulcer and am trying to reduce the acid in his stomach, so he gets all they hay he can eat, my mare has no complaints either since she gets fat on air...

Before anyone says it, the mare can not eat his feed, she eats hers and then is tied up while he eats his feed (he is an extremely slow eater)

He has been on strategy now for around 2 weeks and is just finishing being switched over from omolene 200 (this will be 100% switched tomorrow). The amount of strategy will be increased also when we put him back into training and may be increased before then if I do not see anymore weight going onto him (I took him out of training temporarily so we could get his health issues worked out and maybe a better feeding program established for him, all he does is run around the pasture in the day and sleep in the barn at night).

I will try to post a picture of him tomorrow that is taken tomorrow so everyone can see him and tell me what bpdy score condition they think he is in.


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## Peggysue (Mar 29, 2008)

If you have a horse with Ulcers NIETHER of theses feeds are a good choice becuase they are GRAIN based grain irratates and can cause ULCERS!!! 

Look at the http://www.tizwhizfeeds.com/products/thirtyplus.shtml then add beet pulp,alfafla pellets/cubes or rice bran to the harder keepers ... 

This up your nutrition level lowers cost and is healthier for them :wink:


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Yes I would never feed grain based products to my horses.
Feed rice bran and flax along with beet pulp and a mineral that is complete for your area. Look for high fat content and no added starches in any complete feed.
The other problem with feeding a nationaly manafactured feed is that the mineral contents aren't formulated specifically for your area. A horse on the west coast in sandy, dry soil conditions has completely different nutritional needs than a horse in NY.


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## Peggysue (Mar 29, 2008)

In Ohio I would look into Kent Feeds ... which is designed for the "midwest"


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## minihorse927 (Aug 11, 2008)

I use to feed kent, I had a friend who had 3 horses poisioned from a kent product that somehow had pesticide dumped onto it at the factory/feedmill and now I do not want anything to do with kent feeds for this reason. I know this can happen anywhere and to anything, but the main thing was that the feedmill that it came from did not even care and just shoved it onto kent saying it was their fault, not the feedmill. There is only one feed provider who does kent and it is where this came from, so basically they ruined kent for me and also I am getting ready to move and where I am going my choices are tizwhiz or purina or locally mixed grain.

As far as my stallion with the ulcer goes, we have found with him that if it upsets his ulcer, he will stop eating about halfway through his feeding. The strategy he will eat all of and not leave any laying behind. Our vet suggested finding a pelleted feed whether is be grain based or not because he is a picky eater and I was told to use either strategy or structure because I told him that those two brands are my choices where I am moving to. I know he will eat either one of these I just have not made up which one I want to change everyone to yet. This is because everyone I know with minis in the show circuit feeds strategy and super 14, this is more than just a ahndful of people, this is like 80% of the show people. I do not like the idea of strategy not being a fixed formula feed, and with him being picky, if they change it at all, he will know and not eat it. I am afraid to switch them all to structure because I have never fed it for any long period of time so I do not know how they will all look when I start to change them over, and since show season is still going I do not want to drop weight or make anyone overly fat while they are switching because then I can not take them to shows they are already entered into.

I have looked at and tried the thirty plus, but the fat content is only like 1.4% or close to that, I am not exactly sure. My stallion will not hold weight with it even with feeding free choice hay and tons of weight builder. He will not eat beat pulp or rice bran. The alfalfa pellets are the only thing he will eat and when I tried to get out of the grain and add alf pellets with the thirty plus he lost weight and I had to feed him more than he could ever eat in a single feeding to try to keep weight on him. Alfalfa also founders minis in a heartbeat in most cases.

In feeds I have been looking for 14% protein, at least 6% fat, and low to no added starch and I do not mind grain products in them since all I had ever fed is sweet feed from the local mill and never had a problem until I got this stallion as a starved and lice covered yearling. He held weight fine with 12% sweet feed until his 3 y/o winter and then all of the sudden he lost all his weight in a matter of 2 weeks and the vet scored him at a body score 2.5, when he was a body score six 2 weeks prior. This is when my vet said oh, you are not feeding him enough, just feed him more, which worked fine for about a year, then he quit eating all of his grain and ever since it has been a battle to try to keep weight on him. Since I have switched vets, this is the one who I suggested an ulcer problem to and he would actually scope him to find he had a minor ulcer that was probably caused by feeding him 3.5 lbs of grain in a single feeding to keep weight on him (instructions of the other vet who is supposedly the "best" in southern ohio).

I mean to each his own, some people would never feed grain and others swear by it, I am open to any ideas or suggestions, just something I have not tried and something that actually workes like it says. MIniatures are harder to keep in show condition than any full size horse I have ever owned. Most get fat easy but they do not fill out in the correct places like a riding horse does. They require very strict feeding programs that exclude a lot of things I have always used for my riding horses because it makes their neck fat or it will founder them or it is just to strong and can not be doesed down enough to feed it to a mini.


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## Peggysue (Mar 29, 2008)

Kent makes all thier own feed and I have never heard of or found a report on them posioning anything and I have SEARCHED ALOT... part of what I do... 
There is no mill in OH so I would look more to outside introduction of the chemical then I would blaming Kent feeds  

http://www.kentfeeds.com/Plant-Locations.aspx


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Peggysue said:


> Kent makes all thier own feed and I have never heard of or found a report on them posioning anything and I have SEARCHED ALOT... part of what I do...
> There is no mill in OH so I would look more to outside introduction of the chemical then I would blaming Kent feeds
> 
> http://www.kentfeeds.com/Plant-Locations.aspx


Yeah my mare got lead poisoning from beet pulp before. It's not anyone's fault, just some lead based paint chipped off in the mill or something.
That is also why (at least in Canada) we have a feed registery. Everyone that buys horse feed has a number and every time you buy feed they track what you buy so if there is ever a problem with a batch and it gets reported they call you and tell you to return the feed and monitor your horses.

But each to his own, I will never feed grain based. Grain is starch, btw. And feeding more of it is the same as feeding more alfafa which is also not good in excess. If your horse doesn't like rice bran or beet pulp then find a soybean hull based product. 
And I also call BS on there only being two feed products where you're moving. There's no UFA around? We have a store where I get all my feed that honestly has about 30 different pelleted feeds for horses.
If your stallion has trouble keeping weight on, maybe you need to get him on gastro-guard or something. Call smart-pak and ask them to put together something for him. Smart-pak is awesome and suprisingly enough, availabe in all corners of the country.


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## minihorse927 (Aug 11, 2008)

Where I am moving to my brand choices are either tizwhiz, purina, or a locally mixed feed or pellet as I said before. I have been trying to look into some of the smaller companies up there and see what they have to offer and the vet has also put him on gastro-guard, sorry i forgot to mention that in a earlier post. For temporary time being he has been put onto startegy, per the vet, because he eats it a lot better than the omolene 200 he was on. Like I said before I did not really want to make this a permanent thing because i do not like the idea of a non fixed formula feed, they change it at all and he will not eat it...which will just cause me to do this again and again. I would just like to find a feed that is fixed formula pelleted, high fat, low starch, and tastes good to him!

I never thought about calling smartpak, I had used them previously, the only downfall with the minis is that everything they sell can not always be dosed down small enough for them...  I know they have dosed some things down for me before and some of the stuff I had used I had to add in myself because they could not get such a small amount. But, this is something i will definitely look into again!!!

As far as the kent pruducts go, I am not against kent themselves and not blaming kent, just the local feed mill that sells it here because they did not even care that at their mills pesticide was dumped in it (it was a mineral molasses bucket) and it caused my friends 3 horses to all have liver damage and now her stallion is unbreedable due to it (things do not work right anymore) along with having seizures that medicine cannot control. Luckily he had learned to live with them and learned to go into the middle of the pasture where nothing can hurt him because the seizure causes him no pain as long as nothing is around to hurt him. They have also gotten less as time has went on so maybe we are hoping one of these days soon there will be no more seizures.

The mill I am referring to is a kent dealer, not a maker. They make their own feeds there and then also sell kent products on top of that.

Also where I am moving to is very much city, there are 3 local feed mills, 2 purina dealers and 1 tizwhiz and purina dealer. They both carry other products (very few pelleted from todays research, but I am not done researching things they have yet). The other products come from feed mills located in the state of ohio or indiana or I think the one even said kentucky and they are small feed milling companies. I wish that the one mill would carry what I use to buy up there because I never once had a problem with it, but they claimed that is jumped to $18 a bag and no one wanted to feed it anymore. I asked them to order it for me and they told me they could only order 10 bags at a time and I had to buy all 10 bags at once, it takes me with just 4 minis going with me, a month to go through 2 bags and I have no way to store 10 bags at one time. Yes, I know grain=starch

I will also add this to this post, I have had problems with pelleted feeds before so I am going back to this very leary of them. My problem was no matter how much I fed they all lost weight and looked really crummy, it was probably just that one brand I had bought (supposedly specially designed for miniature horses and ponies), but it ruined a lot of pelleted feed for me. This is why I am so leary of them.

I am not saying that I am dead set on one of these two feeds, but if it comes down to it, then these would be the best 2 I can come up with that he will eat and the rest will eat without me playing the mixing feed game! If I had a place to keep it all without it going bad or getting bugs or something, I would make my own feed mixture of what I really want along with my friend who is a horse nutritionalist, she is also trying to help me find something that is good for my stallion locally along with my vet here in southern ohio.

Sometimes I wonder what made me want miniatures to show because they are so hard to try to feed (until you get the right mix going on) and so easy to founder or cause ulcers in. Then I remember why I wanted them, it all began because I was so amazed at how something so small could do everything a riding horse can do just without a rider! Just the riding horses i had were always fat and happy and never had a problem with feeding them!


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## Peggysue (Mar 29, 2008)

If you give me your zip to where you are gonna be I might be able ot help you locate OTHER feed dealers ...are you staying in OH??

OR you can go to each companies website and call or locate a dealer as well 


ADM you will have to call 
http://www.admani.com/

Blueseal
http://www.blueseal.com/company/dealerlocate.php

Blue bonnet
http://bluebonnetfeeds.com/viewproduct.php?id=35

Buckeye
http://www.buckeyenutrition.com/dealers.html

Merit (division of Purina)
http://www.equinemerit.com/merit_products.asp

Flint River Mills
http://www.frmfeeds.com/4901.html

Frontrunner
http://www.frontrunnerhorse.com/phase6.php

Hallaway 
http://hallwayfeeds.com/

McCauley
http://www.mccauleybros.com/feeds/

Progressive
http://prognutrition.com/DealerLocator.htm

Triple Crown
http://www.triplecrownfeed.com/distributors.php


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## minihorse927 (Aug 11, 2008)

I am moving to ziop code 43035 and i am looking for something preferably pelleted, 14% protein, at least 6% fat (higher the better), low starch, and high fiber, I really like these two from buckeye and I think I can get them if I go to cashmans.

http://www.buckeyenutrition.com/equine/endurance101.html

^^^^I like that fat level but the fiber is to low and I do not like the idea that the 1st ingredient is corn

http://www.buckeyenutrition.com/equine/trainingformula.html

^^^^This I really like but it is texturized and I know that it will upset his ulcer.


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## Peggysue (Mar 29, 2008)

you have more then One Buckeye dealer LUCKY you .. 
http://www.buckeyenutrition.com/cgi-bin/dealer.cgi
if I were to feed anything beside the Gro N Win this would be my choice from Buckeye http://www.buckeyenutrition.com/equine/documents/329 Cadence.pdf



CAshman's also carries Kent 
Besides the Hosego32 I would go with this one from them
http://www.kentequine.com/getdoc/9fbda127-b239-40f9-b578-6221a65ccd3b/7367-pdf.aspx


Not sure how far these are I wish all the sites used the zip finder and gave us distances not sure which of theses is any good the only thing I have heard much about from them is the Progressive Pro Advantage Grass Formula
http://prognutrition.com/DealerLocatorOH.htm


Triple Crown Dealers if not the TC30% then this one
http://www.triplecrownfeed.com/lowstarchanalysis.php here are the dealers looks like the one you named has them all 
http://www.triplecrownfeed.com/dealers.php?s=OH&c=Kalmbach


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## minihorse927 (Aug 11, 2008)

I think I found something I really like and I want to know what others think. This is a ration balancer that I found made by a company in upper sandusky called kalmback feeds. It is from their new tribute horse feed line. It is called Essential K

Crude protein 28% min
lysine 2.2% min
methionine 0.6% min
Threonine 1.2% min
Crude fat 6% min
crude fiber 5% max
calcium(ca) 2.5% min
calcium(ca) 3.5% max
phosphorous 1.5% min
salt (NaCl) 1.00% min
salt (NaCl) 1.5% max
copper 200ppm
zinc(ZN)400ppm
selenium (Se) 1.5 ppm min
potassium 1.5% 
magnesium 0.4%
manganese 240ppm
iron 900ppm
cobalt 4 ppm
iodine 4ppm
thiamine 30mg/ld
biotin 2.4mg/lb
ascorbic acid 80 mg/lb min
vitamin A 30,000 IU/lb min
vitamin D 2,500 IU/lb min
vitamin E 500 IU/lb min

Ingredients
dehulled soybean meal, ground extruded whole soybeans, dehydrated alfalfa meal, wheat flour, wheat middlings, dicalcium phosphate, calcium carbonate, cane molasses, soybean oil, lignin sulfonate, magnesium oxide, L-lysine, DL-methionin, salt, potassium sulfate, magnesium sulfate, potassium chloride, vitamin a supplement, vitamin e supplement, vitamin d supplement, biotin, folic acid, vitamin b-12 supplement, pantothenic acid, niacin, thiamin mononitrate, menadione dimethylpyrimidinol bisulfate (source of vitamin k activity), riboflavin, ascorbic acid, choline chloride,, zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, mananese sulfate, copper sulfate, ethylene diamine dihydriodide, cobalt sulfate, sodium selenite, selenium yeast, copper lysine complex, zinc methionine complex, manganese methionine complex, cobalt glucoheptonate, and natural and artificial (apple) flavor.

Feeding directions
top dress from 0.5 lbs up to 5lbs depending on forage quality, age, and body condition, and performance levels of the individual horses.

Provide you horse(s) a minimum of 1% of bodyweight in good quality hay or pasture per day. Always allow free choice of clean fresh water and free choice salt.

for addtional information please contact your kalmbach feed representative.

This is a fixed formula feed and actually smells pretty good and taste pretty good (yeah I tried it). Tell me what you think of this because I think this is what I am gonna buy. I can feed this to everyone in the barn and not have to play the mad scientist mixing feed anymore at night. 

Also, if I buy this, someone please tell me how to switch from a grain based feed to this ration balancer because the amount I have to feed of this is a quarter or more less than what I am feeding of everything else.

I had to go through and hand type all this because the website to the tribute line is under construction

They do not have this feed listed on their site but this is one page I did find that was not product specific.
http://tributehorsefeeds.com/Int/recommend.html

Also from reading I have found that triple crown and tribute are both related to the same company kalmbach, which is something I never knew before.


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## Peggysue (Mar 29, 2008)

I have heard WONDERFUL things about the Essential K it is suppose to be JUST LIKE the Buckeye Gro N Win ... in fact some nutritientist that left Buckeye disigned and marketed it off of the ORGINAL Gro N Win


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## minihorse927 (Aug 11, 2008)

Peggysue said:


> I have heard WONDERFUL things about the Essential K it is suppose to be JUST LIKE the Buckeye Gro N Win ... in fact some nutritientist that left Buckeye disigned and marketed it off of the ORGINAL Gro N Win



This is actually what the lady told me that I talked to with the company about the feed and I did not think to much about it because most of the time I have found that a lot of the things these companies say is a bunch of hot air, all I knew was that I liked the feed and I thought I would give it a try. She also even told me if I want to try it, that for every bag I buy the first time, she will give me a bag for free. The guy at the store did not know much of it because he had not been to the meetings all about the new feeds so he immediately let me talk to a lady from kalmbach feeds about it. He has told me though that ever since he started to carry the Essential K that he sells around a skid per week of it and he has only carried it now for about 3 months.


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## Peggysue (Mar 29, 2008)

Take pictures before you start it and once a month ... you will be amazed at the difference!!! It is suppose to be really good stuff I can't get it in my area but alot of Buckeye people are changing too it... 

When Mars Candy bought Buckeye they changed a couple ingredients in the Gro N Win the Essential K is the orginal recipe!!!

So you are actually buying th orginal Gro N WIn before Mars went to some cheaper ingredients!!


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## minihorse927 (Aug 11, 2008)

Yay, now I am proud of myself!!! I went and bought it today and am going to start to feed it tomorrow moring along with what they are eating now. The representative told me to top dress it onto what they are eating now until I run low on the other and then do it like I would any other feed change, wean them from the old feed and leave them only the new feed to eat.

I thought about the picture thing, I am going to take some in the morning and then every week for a couple months and then go from there and see what they look like.


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## prbygenny (Aug 2, 2008)

It sounds like a very good feed!! I use Progressive and the ingredients and amounts are very close if not exact to what my label reads. Do you mind me asking how much for a bag? Progressive is $32 a bag and if I could find something that is that close but less expensive I would love it! My boy goes through a bag every 5-6 weeks so it can get spendy. Thanks in advance.


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## Peggysue (Mar 29, 2008)

prbygenny said:


> It sounds like a very good feed!! I use Progressive and the ingredients and amounts are very close if not exact to what my label reads. Do you mind me asking how much for a bag? Progressive is $32 a bag and if I could find something that is that close but less expensive I would love it! My boy goes through a bag every 5-6 weeks so it can get spendy. Thanks in advance.


If you compare the Buckeye, Progessive, Essential K and Horsego you will notice they are all very close ... with the Essential K and Horsego being the cheaper of the four


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## prbygenny (Aug 2, 2008)

Thanks for the info, but where do you find the prices? I have to get my Progressive from a Dealer here.
Thanks again.


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## Peggysue (Mar 29, 2008)

You have to find a dealer in your area and calll... 

Progressive here is $28 per 50 
Horsego is $22
Buckeye is $32


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## prbygenny (Aug 2, 2008)

I just Googled Horsego, but didn't find anything. Do you have there website by any chance.
You have been a real help Peggysue, Thanks so much.


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## Peggysue (Mar 29, 2008)

prbygenny said:


> I just Googled Horsego, but didn't find anything. Do you have there website by any chance.
> You have been a real help Peggysue, Thanks so much.


Hehe Sorry it is made by Kent feeds this is what I use on my gang 
http://www.kentequine.com/Products/Other-Equine-Products/HorseGo™-32.aspx


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## prbygenny (Aug 2, 2008)

I took a look and it looks pretty good and they carry it at a local store here. Thanks again so much!!


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## Peggysue (Mar 29, 2008)

prbygenny said:


> I took a look and it looks pretty good and they carry it at a local store here. Thanks again so much!!


I thought my horses improved on the Buckeye but I seen even MORE improvement when I went to the Kent.. Kent is a great company just not well heard of yet!!


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## minihorse927 (Aug 11, 2008)

The Essential K is $25 a bag where I am getting it from, which seems to be the average according to the representative. I looked at the buckeye gronwin and just decided I liked this one better and that it was quite a bit cheaper. Have to wait and see how many bags I will feed in a months time...hopefully I will be able to feed what the bag says is the recommended amount and not a bunch more so it will be a lot cheaper than what I am doing now for feed. If I can stick with the 1/2lb per day...then one 50lb bag will last each mini 100 days!!! This will make this feed much more cost effective to me and I will not have to worry so much about whether my stallion is going to eat his feed because it upsets him or not. 

Maybe I will put up some pictures of my horses in the next day or too and then report back every weekend and let everyone see the difference! If anyone would like me to, let me know and I will start.


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