# Is this the norm in western pleasure?



## hisangelonly (Oct 29, 2011)

So I don't watch western pleasure much at all. I'm more of an English person. I went to an open show this past weekend and got there while western pleasure was warming up. It's an open fun show so of course a lot of people are avid trail riders looking to have a bit of showing fun. Then there are people who do compete higher and are showing in the open fun show for practice. I saw quite a few of the more serious western pleasure competitions pulling their horses into completely false frames. The people who were there for fun were just riding and their horses were actually really collected and relaxed but still could move out. Anyways what some of the people were doing hurt me to watch. They would sit there and yank on their horses bits every time the horses head came up even a little. And by yank I mean hard with the entire hand. They stopped yanking when their horses heads were behind the vertical. Most of the horses had their mouths open of course. But man that yanking made MY mouth hurt! But I noticed it was mostly the more serious western pleasure people doing it. Is that really a major method in western pleasure training?? I sure hope not. It was painful to watch. And one of the girls was teaching a child to do it to her sweet horse too. She had her really pulling on the bit. And these bits had pretty big shanks 
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## sorral3 (Jun 7, 2013)

of the shows I have seen, yes its normal. The show circuit has ruined the quarter horse breed in my opinion, and produces non-functional horses. Peanut pushers is a term used alot.


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## TessaMay (Jul 26, 2013)

I am sure there are a lot of ways to train a horse to have a western pleasure headset and most WP horses already carry their heads fairly low naturally. But yes, I have seen this method of getting a horse "into frame" from multiple WP riders/trainers.


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## hisangelonly (Oct 29, 2011)

So sad! And some people were pretty young and doing it! It's getting passed down . I don't like how the horses barely move either. 
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## hisangelonly (Oct 29, 2011)

How did that method come to be? Why is it more prominent than a gentler way? I don't understand people
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## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

I guess it depends on what your opinion of hard is...? 

Both my reining trainers ask their horses to give to bit pressure by "bumping" the bit. It isn't any more pressure then I would normally apply (if I were going to apply steady pressure), but it more a quick/sharp action.
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## hisangelonly (Oct 29, 2011)

Like enough pressure to pull the horses head in. Yeah they were sharp and quick but it looked very hard and caused a false frame. Nothing more than a headset
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## 2BigReds (Oct 7, 2011)

There was a WP trainer at our old barn who moved in not too long before we left. They were doing that with their horses and it hurt the rest of us to watch, but I'm honestly not sure that she even realized what that actually does to a horse's mouth.  They seemed to love their horses so much too, really a shame but I've seen worse handling as well. I'll ride my horse in WP open shows for practice but I refuse to train him to be useless in order to win. I want a horse that I can enjoy and with his true gaits.


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## hisangelonly (Oct 29, 2011)

I know just like halter horses. They've just made them unnatural
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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

Fun shows draw a lot of "imitation crab". Usually local trainers who do not have a lot of education, "copying" what they see the big trainers doing, on horses who are not built to do it. They make the rest of us western pleasure people look bad.


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

I think what you were seeing is easily compared to rollkor in dressage. Its not great, its used by a portion of the riding population. When its used it gives the rest of that discipline a bad name. The same goes for soaring in Big Lick, although I think Big Lick is long term worse for the horse. What defines a horses "usefulness" is all in the eye of the owner/rider/trainer. One mans ruined breed is another's ideal.


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## hisangelonly (Oct 29, 2011)

oh vair oh said:


> Fun shows draw a lot of "imitation crab". Usually local trainers who do not have a lot of education, "copying" what they see the big trainers doing, on horses who are not built to do it. They make the rest of us western pleasure people look bad.


That makes sense. There's lots of imitators around here
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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

That is precisely why I don't attend shows. I'm sick of the cruelty and I run the risk of getting thrown behind bars for flipping someone off their horse. It takes written complaints to the show committee to get this stopped. Years ago when I did show, if a judge, even on his coffee break saw anything like this, the rider would be told he/she was dismissed from the remaining classes. Now, everyone turns a blind eye. They "don't want to get involved" and so it continues.


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## TheAQHAGirl (Aug 10, 2012)

Just because a few 'serious' western pleasure riders do it doesn't make it the 'norm' for all western pleasure riders...As Oh Vair Oh said, a lot of fun shows draw imitators and people who don't know what they're doing. Don't start thinking that all of western pleasure is cruel, unnatural, etc. until you learn more about the discipline.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

It's normal. I remember years ago when I showed in 4H, the 4H leader's son was sawing his poor horse's mouth off. The leader was a well respected trainer by a lot of people. His horses were like machines. They had no spark left, and went around the ring with a vacant look in their eyes.

I learned how to judge, and according to my coach it is not acceptable- a horse that is behind the vertical is severely penalized, as is a horse that peanut rolls.

I don't know why there are so many judges who think peanut rolling is acceptable. One reason why I will never show in western pleasure.


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## TheAQHAGirl (Aug 10, 2012)

4horses said:


> It's normal. I remember years ago when I showed in 4H, the 4H leader's son was sawing his poor horse's mouth off. The leader was a well respected trainer by a lot of people. His horses were like machines. They had no spark left, and went around the ring with a vacant look in their eyes.
> 
> I learned how to judge, and according to my coach it is not acceptable- a horse that is behind the vertical is severely penalized, as is a horse that peanut rolls.
> 
> I don't know why there are so many judges who think peanut rolling is acceptable. One reason why I will never show in western pleasure.


Peanut rolling has been long gone from the show ring.


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## hisangelonly (Oct 29, 2011)

I know the bad riders are not hard to find. Just go to a place where many riders get together :/. It's sad and yeah of course the judge won't do anything about it. Also the "lope" doesn't look very natural. It doesn't look like a true lope. It looks like the horse is barely moving. And of course even at this lope there were some riders out there yanking on their horses mouths. Even when they were practicing backing up in the warm up ring they were heavy handed. The horse would raise it's head and open it's mouth and one girl smacked her horse with the rein for it. I know not all western pleasure riders are like that. I saw good riders too. Light handed and with responsive horses. Also the people who didn't look like serious western pleasure riders (didn't have a silver covered saddle or fancy shirt and their horse wasn't clipped) were the best riders out there in my opinion. Their horses were relaxed and the riders looked happy. I didn't get to see the actual classes so I don't know who won. I just don't understand why judges would want unnatural movement/harsh treatment like big lick, this western pleasure thing, etc. The more the judges place these poorly treated horses at the top of the class, the more trainers will do It to win.
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## Wolfetrap (Jan 7, 2013)

I was raised a hunter/jumper rider but I worked for a QH trainer for a while. I can't tell you the amount of times I thought that she had NO idea how to teach/make a horse collect and use themselves at all!!! Her horses did not even know what lateral movement was, leg to them made them go forward and that was it...Then I started going to shows and thought "WOW most of the trainers here are similar!" I hope the show world has changed a bit since then. Also I never understood why the QH (show) breeding fad was breeding small feet? There seemed to be so many show QH with very small feet. Also....Can someone explain to me about Appendix? How much QH does there need to be in ordered to be a registered QH? There are so many Appendix QH that just look like throughbreds. You can't even tell there is any QH in them at all!!!


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## ropinbiker (Aug 3, 2012)

Wolfetrap, that isn't the way the majority of QH folks train, or use their horses, for that matter. Most either do rodeo events, ride trails, rein, etc. The only QH folks that want a "bodybuilder with small head and feet" type horse are the halter show folks....and, the only trainers that want the lower headset and the somewhat awkward gaits are the western pleasure types. 

Now, I am not saying that those folks are "bad" for the rest of the QH world, but it is a bit concerning that most winning halter horses can't be used for anything but showing at halter and maybe some light trail riding. One of Katie's fellow drill team teammates has a halter horse, and the horse has too little bone in it's legs to be "rideable", however, it does well at the halter shows. And this girl barrel races and break away ropes in the high school rodeo circuit, so it's funny that they have this extra horse that can't be used for anything else...


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## hisangelonly (Oct 29, 2011)

Poor things. I thought we were supposed to improve the breed.
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## sorral3 (Jun 7, 2013)

my problem with western pleasure, and most western show, is the unnaturally low head set they put the horses in. A peanut rolling horse can not be anywhere as athletic as one with a more natural head set. I know that there are trainers that can achieve it without harsh methods, but to force an animal to work in such an awkward position makes me want nothing to do with it. 

if you are humane in training and enjoy showing, by all means, have fun but it's not for me.


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

The appendix quarter horse needs to be 1/8 QH to be registered and raced as an appendix. That is what I was told a few years ago it may not be true. Which is why most of the horses racing as QH are in fact a large portion TB. That is what I was told years ago. I am not familiar with the QH/Appendix world so correct me if that is wrong.


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## Wolfetrap (Jan 7, 2013)

rookie...that's what I have heard also...that's probably why there are so many qh hunters that look and move like tb! It's interesting that there can be so much tb since the body/mind of these 2 horses is so different.


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## HorseMom1025 (Jul 17, 2012)

It was an eye opener to me when we started showing our QH. Acey is somewhere around 98% foundation bred. She's short, stocky with thick legs. Some folks call her "cowy". When my daughter enters the ring at QH shows, Acey is a pretty dramatic contrast to the other horses. (I teasingly call them the "super models" and Acey is more "mare next door"). 

My daughter quickly lost interest in Western Pleasure for many reasons. Acey's head set in not naturally low and it's a lot of work to keep it down (we have a trainer helping, but she warned us that it will never be WP low). Her jog and lope are always extended (she was used for play days and trail riding before we bought her), so we are working on slowing her down, but Kitten, my 11 year old daughter, doesn't find slow fun. She just doesn't enjoy it, we're not sure we'll ever be competitive with our horse, so, while we still work on WP and HMS sometimes, it is no longer our focus.

We love showing, we love our short stocky mare. My daughter does really well in equitation and English on the flat. We will never be Congress or World contenders, but we're ok with that. 

We ride our mare on trails, in play days, parades, and have even herded cattle, goats, and ducks with her. LOL! Acey is everything we were promised in the QH breed. Intelligent, willing to learn, an amazing companion to our daughter. She is worth her weight in gold to us.
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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

HorseMom I really like your answer. It basically sums up how I feel about my mare (not a QH). My mare is not going to win anything amazing but I really like her. I also think your mare sounds like a winner and a great horse.


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## Wolfetrap (Jan 7, 2013)

I'm much more a fan of the foundation bred!! I think that's what QH should look like!


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## HorseMom1025 (Jul 17, 2012)

Thanks Rookie! Don't get me wrong, she has her bratty moments too .

It can be difficult as a parent to realize that your child will rarely bring home the blue ribbon because we fell in love with the "wrong" horse for her chosen sport. (I'm naturally competitive!). We don't want to sell Acey and buy a "show horse", we just want to do our best to be as competitive as we can. So, we have a trainer and take lessons and I buy all the best gear I can afford and put our best hoof forward at shows.

We are unwilling to utilize those harsh training techniques to force our horse into an unnatural carriage or headset. Our trainer is using gentle techniques to get her as far as she can, but we understand that it will probably never be "perfect". 

My daughter is fine with it, thank goodness and luckily, if/when she gets tired of showing, we'll still have an amazing horse to call our own.
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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Using pain to create a headset is something that exists in many horse related classes and training in general - its not confined to WP
Its a shame that people who use these tactics - quite often as shortcuts instead of taking time and using good schooling methods give the good trainers and competitors a bad name


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

I hate the idea that you can have "wrong horse" when you have a wonderful horse. I think you are teaching your daughter that there are some really important things in life that are more important than winning. You only spend a few hours maybe days of your life showing your horse. You spend much more time preparing and riding your horse. So, its better in my opinion to have a safe horse that you can enjoy training and working with. 

I agree with Jaydee, the use of pain to create a false head set is not unique to WP. In all walks of horses you will find the real deal and the wanna-bees the difference between the two is sometimes huge. The problem is that the general public can tar them all with the same brush.


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## HorseMom1025 (Jul 17, 2012)

I actually spoke at length to our trainer about the various methods to get our horse where we need her to be. We went thru the list and I told her what I would and would not approve used on our horse. I know I'm handicapping her in some ways, but I really don't care and she knows I will move my horse in a heartbeat if I feel she is being abused in any way.

Of course, that makes it sound like my trainer uses harsh training, but that's not really true. She prefers gentle and slow, but she tries to educate me on all methods (because she knows that I do my homework and talk to LOTS of different people to get opinions and answers). She has had clients in the past demand certain method used to get faster results. And, some of the techniques I nixed are considered "normal". (Like tying in the stall at shows and not allowing them to move around. Fine for others I guess, but not for my girl. . Just my preference and I understand the "consequences" of my choice.

The bottom line is that the owners/clients need to start understanding training better and demand more humane techniques. It should NOT be about the blue ribbon at any cost. It should be about fun, good sportsmanship, good horsemanship, and improving the breed.
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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

sorral3 said:


> my problem with western pleasure, and most western show, is the unnaturally low head set they put the horses in. A peanut rolling horse can not be anywhere as athletic as one with a more natural head set.


Well, you really have to define "unnaturally low" as well.










This is about as natural as my pleasure bred yearling gets, even moving forward. Is this considered "unnaturally low"? If I rode her with his headset, would people consider myself to be using abusive practices to put her head in this "unnatural" position?


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

Oh vair- that headset would not be correct. The horse is breaking at the 3rd vertebrae instead of at the poll, and is slightly behind the vertical with it's nose. 

With the ideal headset the head should be one hand above or below the withers. No lower and no higher. 

This horse's head is too low and it is behind the vertical.

Google Image Result for http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_WMLJW9X6BqU/TD3tLtaYLkI/AAAAAAAALlo/uXQvNZrL2Ps/s400/lope_grey_trope1.jpg

Here are 2 examples of a nice headset:
http://www.google.com/imgres?safe=a...bnh=174&tbnw=192&start=0&ndsp=17&tx=103&ty=64

Google Image Result for http://www.horsechannel.com/images/horse-news-article-images/western-pleasure-qh.jpg

This one is too low!

Google Image Result for http://www.wadespellpleasurehorses.com/Winners/ASuddenLegacy.jpg


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_Is this considered "unnaturally low"?_"

I'd have to say yes, based on the overwhelming majority of horses and how they move. It may well be a result of her breeding, but there is a reason that feral horses are not built like that.

I guess my question would be: "Why?" Why is that considered desirable? What is the benefit? Apart from winning in shows, why would someone breed a horse or train a horse to move like they do even in the top levels of WP?

When I watch AQHA videos like those below, I'm impressed by the horse's training, and certain they were bred for it, but I'm bewildered at why someone would want to do this, or what this has to do with "trail" riding or "western" riding:











I'm not saying it is evil, just that I don't have a glimmer of a clue about why someone considers it desirable. In all seriousness, what is the point?


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

I know, I'm not saying it's ideal. But I'm saying it is natural.

Calling a low headset "unnatural" or getting a low headset is only by using abusive practices is absurd. I have to work to pick my horse's head UP. It would be just as unnatural to put my horse in an elevated dressage frame as it would be to put a dressage horse in a stock hunter frame. That's why they are bred the way they are.


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

bsms said:


> I'm not saying it is evil, just that I don't have a glimmer of a clue about why someone considers it desirable. In all seriousness, what is the point?


Because I enjoy riding that way, and it is a pleasure for me to not have a horse's head in my face. Because it allows them to move long and low. Because I think it is pretty?

No, she's probably not going to go rope some cows. Sorry. But at least it keeps her out of the slaughterhouse because a group of people find it very ideal and lucrative.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Actually, I thought both of those rides were rather nice. The trail rider get a marvelous job of negotiating those obstacles. Although the horses head was extremely low, the horse was in constant communication on a very loose rain. Could I do that? No.

I am uncomfortable to ride a horse with his head so low. It feels like I'm about to fall off a cliff with nothing in front of me. But I suppose it's all what you get used to.


Why IS that form desire able? I confess to being baffled as to why this is desirable.o

Also, to be honest, many riders who say their horses head is not too low, if they look at a photo of themselves, their horses head is actually quite low. Well below one hand lower than the withers.


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## HorseMom1025 (Jul 17, 2012)

LOL! I know Acey's is wrong because we affectionately refer to her as a giraffe. . She's getting better with patience and training, but if she had her way, she would have her head high and proud. I think most of it is breeding. Her Daddy is Command A Buck. Best known in reining and cutting I think.

I like oh Vair oh's horses head. She's very pretty and if that is how she carries herself naturally, than that is great! I wish we didn't have to obsess over it. I wish judges would worry less about how high/low a head is and just look at the individual horse. Is the horse on a loose rein? Is it under control? Does the horse look comfortable and a "joy to ride"? Is the rider happy and comfortable?

I know there has to be "standards", in an attempt to be fair, but I'm not sure the right ones are in place. Of course, I've only been in the show world for 2 years at local AQHA sanctioned shows...so I'm no expert and do not claim to be one. I'm just a show mom helping my daughter pursue her love of horses. 
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## Nikkibella (Mar 10, 2012)

I don't want the WP riders to think that we are picking on them, because as a jumper I know that some jumpers use bits etc. that WP riders think are harsh but I have also seen much the same thing among the WP riders at small local shows. Mostly just inexperience, I guess.


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

All equine events are a human construct. I happen to really enjoy the way that pleasure horses look and move. I train them as naturally as possible so that I don't have to force anything on them. I don't use training forks, I don't use martingales, and I don't use anything over a snaffle or bosal until they reach maturity and go in a low port curb bit. 

If I wanted my horse to move like a thoroughbred, I would've gone out and bought one. If I wanted my horse to move like a mustang, I would've gone out and bought one. But I don't like the way those horses move. As much as tinyliny is uncomfortable riding a low headed horse, I am equally uncomfortable riding a horse with an upright head and a lot of contact on the reins. It feels like I am out of control. I love to be able to navigate my horse with just my legs on a very loose rein. 

But I'm pretty sure most "natural" horses don't jump puissance in the wild, or race mile tracks, or perform canter pirouettes of their own accord either. But people are well within their rights to do those things to their horses. You are well within your rights to ride in your backyard for fun. I just happen to want to lope slow on a draped rein. People are allowed to enjoy their own types of riding as long as they aren't forcing their horse to do something that it isn't made for. Putting Lily over a puissance jump would be abuse. Making a puissance jumper do western pleasure would be abuse. Making a jumper jump is not abusive and making a pleasure horse do pleasure is not either, even though you might think one or the other "looks" ugly because it is not your chosen sport.

There are plenty of types of quarter horses out there for _everybody_ to enjoy whatever sport they choose. My horse is 25% foundation bred, 25% thoroughbred, and 50% pleasure bred. She will do a myriad of events in her lifetime - hunter under saddle, western pleasure, barrel racing, hunter over fences, and more. She is not limited in her scope and she is very happy to go out and show. It his her "job", just as much as it would be for a cow horse to go work cows. Her job is to show because that's what makes her valuable and keeps her out of a bad situation. I make her job easier by putting together a world champion sire and a world champion producing dam, who both pass on the movement, athleticism, and structure to win events. 

And I'm not saying all western pleasure riders are perfect. There is a _lot_, a lot, a lot of bad pleasure out there. There are some really bad practices that I have seen first hand. There are a lot of big trainers out there who make me want to vomit whenever I see them show. But what I really dislike is when we are all lumped together. I fight to make the pleasure industry better by not abusing my horses, by not drugging my horses, by not blocking their tails. I think it is totally possible for people to ride a very enjoyable pleasure horse without those things at a high level. And a lot of people are doing the right thing. It cannot be blamed just on the low headset, it can only be blamed on the people who do not respect their horses or other competitors. And the only way to bring change is to bring what you got and beat 'em fair and square.


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## Cynical25 (Mar 7, 2013)

Excellent post, Oh Vair Oh! 

I love the look of a nicely bred & trained western pleasure horse! And riding silky smooth gaits on a horse who responds to nearly imperceptible cues? Unbelievable feeling. My own 3 yr old naturally has an itty bitty trot, slow lope, and poll-below-withers headset, even when running around the pasture with a huge strided Thoroughbred and arched neck Arab - no training was involved to get him to move in this manner, it's who he was bred to be.


Harsh methods can be found in any discipline. It irks me that western pleasure is so often picked on, when there is plenty of good & bad in every part of the horse world. Dwelling on/focusing on the bad only brings more attention to those methods, as people are always looking for a "quick fix" to copy; perhaps if we spent more time applauding the results gained through gentle training methods & posting videos/kudos for horses winning via more correct training practices, we'd see more people copy those, instead?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

oh vair oh said:


> All equine events are a human construct. I happen to really enjoy the way that pleasure horses look and move...
> 
> ...I am equally uncomfortable riding a horse with an upright head and a lot of contact on the reins. It feels like I am out of control. I love to be able to navigate my horse with just my legs on a very loose rein.
> 
> But I'm pretty sure most "natural" horses don't jump puissance in the wild, or race mile tracks, or perform canter pirouettes of their own accord either. But people are well within their rights to do those things to their horses...


Actually...I agree. I like riding Mia with her somewhat high head and loose reins, and I know my approach to riding isn't universal. It matches my personality and hers, and I wouldn't like someone telling me I need to ride with contact or try to imitate a dressage horse & rider or even to lower her head and take a WP approach.

I asked because I was curious, not to condemn a sport just because it is not my cup of tea. I guess it will remain on my long list of things I don't understand...and my apologies if I came across as condemning you or your horse.


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

bsms said:


> I asked because I was curious, not to condemn a sport just because it is not my cup of tea. I guess it will remain on my long list of things I don't understand...and my apologies if I came across as condemning you or your horse.


No worries, I am very passionate about my sport. And it really makes me sad when people doing the hanky-shanky are giving a bad representation about what it is and what it means to people like myself, who try very hard to establish collection the correct way - through the core, from the hindquarters, up the top line, opening the shoulder, and then to the slack rein. Done correctly, it is an intricate art of encouraging the horse to hold his collection without direct contact on the face. 

The pace is simply dictated by the horse's conformation. If a horse is 4 beating, he is not using true collection, or the pace is too slow for his conformation. If you have to rip on your horse's face to make his head stay down, then the horse is not built to put his head in that position. Failure to recognize this is just human ego. 

Unfortunately, too many people are afraid to show against these people because their horses don't move the same way. The judge can't pin anything else, no matter how good the judge's intentions are. People need to be more brave in the pleasure pen, and show their horses correctly in the face of adversity. You might be surprised at the result!


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## amberly (Dec 16, 2012)

There are lots of stupid things people do, and unfortunately this is one thing that many people do because they think their horse kows what they are doing wrong and it will correct the horse.
I ride western and I assure you that it really doesn't do any good. I would rather they put a tie down on the horse than yank on his face!

This is how I help other people know how to work with their horses.
You're pulling on the bit. Lets put the bit in your mouth and do the exact same thing, you won't like so niether will your horse.
Your horse doesn't listen the first or second time and you kick it like a soccer ball. Lets put a saddle on you and do the same thing, I bet you would also start getting mad and ""bucking.""

I do not do this to my horses. I don't care if I get points docked off because my horses head isn't set right. However he has it set I am fine with it because that is his comfortable way of doing it. If it is always to the ground, I might add slight pressure so my hands aren't sitting on his whithers, put never yank their face.

Yanking their faces doesn't do any good. 
I admit, I used to do it to me horse, and it does not good. I have learned more and know more about how to work with horses and I know what is right or wrong now.

Maybe they were never taught a different way - then its not really their fault because they don't know any other way of doing it.

LIke that young girl on the swee thorse, that is the way she is being taught and if she doesn't get taught another way then this will be the only way she knows and she will continue to do it unless she is taught differently.


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## gigem88 (May 10, 2011)

TheAQHAGirl said:


> Peanut rolling has been long gone from the show ring.


Hate to be a negative nelly, but peanut rolling is alive and well!


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## TheAQHAGirl (Aug 10, 2012)

gigem88 said:


> Hate to be a negative nelly, but peanut rolling is alive and well!


Strange? I have yet to see it at a breed show, though. 

Oh Vair Oh made a excellent point. I like to ride my horse on a loose rein, head relaxed, etc. Others like when their horse's head is up and on a loose rein, or some people like a rein with more contact...Totally depends on the separate person and what horse you are dealing with.

My 3 year old is naturally level-headed, slow, etc. This is an old video of me lunging her (and this is her being a lot more energetic than usual). 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2piZ7wWLrSU

I want what is most comfortable to the horse...My old horse, a Tennessee Walker, would have his head up and high (loose rein or not). He did it because his conformation allowed him to do such. Faith (the horse in the video above) likes to hang her head down and go slow. Its what she was bred to do and what she is most comfortable doing. 

And another thing to add is that I found when you yank on a horse's mouth you make them muuuch less soft and supple. Naturally they become high-headed, behind the vertical, or nose in the air, etc. So when that happens, people yank more...And then the horse tries to brace against the bit and will do what I mentioned above. I've never had a problem getting my horse's head 'down'. I just get her soft and supple with circles and she just naturally brings her head down and rounds her back. It works for her, but it may not work for all horses.

As Vair Oh Vair said, usually the horses who are getting their faces yanked down on, 4-beating, etc. are not properly bred for that discipline. Or don't have the correct conformation to such...I would NEVER expect my filly to do a pirouette correctly. She simply doesn't have the conformation, mindset, and bloodlines of a dressage horse. I mean, I guess I could make her do a pirouette, but chances are it would be in a more forceful/unnatural manner to her.

But to each their own!


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## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

TheAQHAGirl said:


> As Vair Oh Vair said, usually the horses who are getting their faces yanked down on, 4-beating, etc. are not properly bred for that discipline. Or don't have the correct conformation to such...I would NEVER expect my filly to do a pirouette correctly. She simply doesn't have the conformation, mindset, and bloodlines of a dressage horse. I mean, I guess I could make her do a pirouette, but chances are it would be in a more forceful/unnatural manner to her.
> 
> But to each their own!


That is very true. Unfortunately there are a lot of folks that have horses who are put together with a bit of a higher head set but the owners want to place and what is being pulled from the lineup is the lower heads so SOME people will do whatever it takes to get that low head and often times, what it takes is NOT comfortable to the horse in question. 

I wish judges could judge the horse for it's movement and headset based on it's natural conformation (shoulder and neck set) What is "naturally low" for some is impossible to pull off for others. 

The whole "go slow" thing wasn't my cup of tea either and I have always wondered too, what was the point?" but I don't criticize others for wanting to do it. I think that is one of the best things about the world of horses. There are so many different breeds and riding disciplines that there really is something for everyone and no need to do things you don't feel good about. I must say there have been a few Quarterhorses that really turned my head as they were so beautiful. It angers me when I see the "bad riders/trainers" doing what they do but that is in all disciplines. It ruins it for everyone. 

Like HorseMom said, it is better to enjoy the horse first and show second. If every thing you are about is the show, then it likely not the individual horse that you are enjoying. Loving the individual horse just makes it all the more fun when you do win or just have a good ride whether you place or not in the show. At the end of the day, the horse could care less if it comes home with a ribbon or not, it is just happy to be loved and cared for by it's owner.


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## TheAQHAGirl (Aug 10, 2012)

I wholeheartedly agree with you, Inga. 

And that is where we see most, if not all, of the problems we see. People enjoy the show first then the horse second, and not the other way around. But unfortunately we can't do anything about that 'one' person who will do whatever it takes to win, be the best, etc.


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## Chevaux (Jun 27, 2012)

HorseMom1025 said:


> ...
> The bottom line is that the owners/clients need to start understanding training better and demand more humane techniques. It should NOT be about the blue ribbon at any cost. It should be about fun, good sportsmanship, good horsemanship, and improving the breed.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Well said HorseMom. Your children are fortunate to have you as a role model.


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## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

TheAQHAGirl said:


> I wholeheartedly agree with you, Inga.
> 
> And that is where we see most, if not all, of the problems we see. People enjoy the show first then the horse second, and not the other way around. But unfortunately we can't do anything about that 'one' person who will do whatever it takes to win, be the best, etc.



When I was teaching youngster or beginners to ride, in preparation for the show ring, I would tell them. "We are not going there to win" In fact, "We don't care at all if we win" The entire reason for showing in the first place is to have fun with your horse and to set goals to improve your riding skills and the bond you have with your horse. Yes, I know THAT is not every persons goal, but it was mine. If we win, that is just a bonus. I brought home a whole lot of ribbons/trophies but that wasn't the goal. I was told, that I was training kids to be losers for saying that. When one kid I taught was whining about not winning, I asked her if she liked the horse and did she have fun? She said, yes so I said, "you already won"

Looking around the show rings today, I think it is sad how many people have lost the FUN in the showing. I wonder why they even do it as it is just stressful and abusive to their horse. Think of the time and money and agony they could save if they just went and bought themselves a big box of blue ribbons and got out of horses entirely.


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## HorseMom1025 (Jul 17, 2012)

Kitten has come out of the show ring grinning from ear to ear after placing dead last. Why? "Did you see that Mom, I got my diagonals every time! Acey was a bit bratty in the corner, but I rode thru it." We high five and get ready for our next class. 

She has also come out confused because she knew she did a great pattern and still placed low. But, we shrug it off. I've taught her that showing is paying for one person's opinion at that moment in time. 

What matters is whether she felt like she and Acey put on a good performance. We don't dwell on it, but we will do a quick run down of good and bad for each performance and then set goals to work on. We show as a way to "test" her skills and be able to judge improvement. 

Does she love winning, of course! She's extremely proud of her ribbon wall and two buckles. She's set a goal to win at least one buckle in each age division...and she knows it will take hard work. 

That's what I want to teach my daughter. How to set goals, how you have to work to achieve those goals and how to both win and lose with grace and poise.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cynical25 (Mar 7, 2013)

Inga said:


> The whole "go slow" thing wasn't my cup of tea either and I have always wondered too, what was the point?" but I don't criticize others for wanting to do it. I think that is one of the best things about the world of horses. There are so many different breeds and riding disciplines that there really is something for everyone and no need to do things you don't feel good about...


Exactly - there IS something for everyone! I could just as equally ask what's the point of jumping a fence, doing a dressage pattern, or running a barrel? In fact, I'll claim the only riding that makes sense or actually has a point in this day and age is what true working ranch horses perform - being ridden to check fences, cut, sort, and rope livestock for doctoring, etc. We equestrians pursue the disciplines which appeal to each us, and hopefully we have enough sense to select the appropriate horse for the "job."

As I said in my previous post, I truly believe that focusing on the good and humane ways of training in any discipline will encourage more people to follow suit. Don't waste energy focusing on the negatives, give those copy-cat "trainers" something GOOD to copy! If there are 2 humane training videos to every bad 1 out there, things should improve. If you want to get philosophical, "Be the change you want to see."


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I'm sure that peanut rolling is still alive and well - as is Rolkurr and all the other stuff that goes on at home - you won't see these things at shows in the way you used too because they get the sports too much negative press
I really admire people who actually put in the hours to train a horse correctly to go in a certain way using cues and schooling for fitness and suppleness
I personally wouldn't like to ride a horse on the trails that had its nose a few inches off the floor - I like a horse to have its head up ahead me regardless of rein length
I'm sure some WP horses are bred to have a naturally low head carriage but the WP horse I had here for 6 weeks had no problem riding with her head in a more normal position on an 'English contact' and after a week was riding like this even on a loose rein.


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## Cynical25 (Mar 7, 2013)

WHY is that "more normal," Jaydee? There are tons of different breeds and lines within each bread, and all naturally carry their heads differently. The western headset looks "more normal" to me based on this Paint's conformation; the english one looks stiff and braced, lol.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I think "normal" is being used in the sense of its actual meaning: "_1. usual; regular; common; typical_". It is simply more common for a horse to carry its head higher than desired in WP shows.

It would be interesting to see a study of weight distribution and footfall done on a WP bred and trained horse, vs a "normal" horse. I'd be interested to know if the WP is heavier on the front than back than is normal.


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

bsms said:


> I think "normal" is being used in the sense of its actual meaning: "_1. usual; regular; common; typical_". It is simply more common for a horse to carry its head higher than desired in WP shows.
> 
> It would be interesting to see a study of weight distribution and footfall done on a WP bred and trained horse, vs a "normal" horse. I'd be interested to know if the WP is heavier on the front than back than is normal.


Long and low is frequently used in dressage as a means to build top line and stretch the muscles.



> Too often in today’s dressage arenas, I see and hear riders operating with the assumption that by keeping the horse’s head and neck up in an elevated position while riding, it keeps the horse from moving with weight on the forehand. I frequently hear the instruction for riders to “get the horse off the forehand” by lifting up his head and neck. For many, this may give the false impression that the horse is now traveling uphill. In reality, according to the mechanics of his body, the horse’s neck elevation has little to do with how much weight the horse does or does not carry on his forehand. It is very possible for a horse to have an elevated neck carriage and still be on the forehand. Likewise, it is possible for a horse to travel with a low neck position and be off the forehand.
> 
> Far more important than where his neck is positioned are the elements of looseness vs. restriction in his scapula and shoulder movement, whether the neck is properly toned vs. tense, the lift and tuck of his abdominal muscles, and the soft swinging of his back under the rider. These elements directly determine whether a horse is able to elevate his withers and draw the weight up out of his front legs. When one of these elements is not occurring properly, the best plan is to ride in a long and low frame until it is corrected.


Try this article:
http://jecballou.com/articles/HonestHorsesLongandLow.pdf


Like I said, all of my horses learn collection from the feet up, through the hindquarters, up the top line, and open the shoulder into the slack rein. I suppose most western pleasure horses happen to be built a little downhill, which could encourage them to travel on the forehand, but neck placement does not dictate traveling on the forehand if the rest of the body is moving correctly.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Cynical25 said:


> WHY is that "more normal," Jaydee? There are tons of different breeds and lines within each bread, and all naturally carry their heads differently. The western headset looks "more normal" to me based on this Paint's conformation; the english one looks stiff and braced, lol.


That was taken the first time I rode her like that so she wasn't used to such a short rein but wasn't heavy on the hands which would = being braced, she wasn't stiff or tense and when ridden on the trails or in the manege on a loose rein with little to no contact she actually stayed in that higher headset - she didn't once show any desire to go down into that WP headset unless 'cued' to do it. When she ran loose in the field she didn't show any signs of a low neck carriage nor did she on the lunge where she had nothing to hold her head into any sort of frame


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## Cynical25 (Mar 7, 2013)

bsms said:


> I think "normal" is being used in the sense of its actual meaning: "_1. usual; regular; common; typical_". It is simply more common for a horse to carry its head higher than desired in WP shows.


But that's the thing - it may be more common for the horses YOU spend your time around. This head carriage IS normal and natural for thousands of horses I've been around since being exposed to western pleasure (and even reining and cutting) back in 1990. If it's not an Arab, Friesian, or gaited horse, a raised head looks awkward to ME.

How is your (a general your, not bsms in particular) personal point of view more normal than the personal point of view of WP enthusiasts such as myself?


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## Cynical25 (Mar 7, 2013)

jaydee said:


> That was taken the first time I rode her like that so she wasn't used to such a short rein but wasn't heavy on the hands which would = being braced, she wasn't stiff or tense and when ridden on the trails or in the manege on a loose rein with little to no contact she actually stayed in that higher headset - she didn't once show any desire to go down into that WP headset unless 'cued' to do it. When she ran loose in the field she didn't show any signs of a low neck carriage nor did she on the lunge where she had nothing to hold her head into any sort of frame


So from ONE experience, you've proven that ALL horses naturally want to hold their heads higher? I can't agree.


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## 2BigReds (Oct 7, 2011)

jaydee said:


> That was taken the first time I rode her like that so she wasn't used to such a short rein but wasn't heavy on the hands which would = being braced, she wasn't stiff or tense and when ridden on the trails or in the manege on a loose rein with little to no contact she actually stayed in that higher headset - she didn't once show any desire to go down into that WP headset unless 'cued' to do it. When she ran loose in the field she didn't show any signs of a low neck carriage nor did she on the lunge where she had nothing to hold her head into any sort of frame


My horse also has his head up when turned out, but he also isn't collected when he's running around like an idiot or simply standing in the field. He even has it up when we're riding if he's not soft and collected. When he is, however, his more natural position is a level head on a draped rein. I can get him up into a Dressage type headset and on the bit while collected and soft as well, but I find he prefers a more western-geared headset when he's really working his body correctly because that's his breeding. It's not as low as some fancier WP or reining horses, but it's level and he does it himself when he's working and thinking. I've ridden plenty of dressage horses who are heavily bred for what they do and I find that they are more comfortable working correctly on the bit than the typical western bred mount is.

Different breeding and conformation produces a different style of horse _when working_ regardless of how they act in the field. Some carry themselves much the same way, but some don't. It depends a lot on the individual as well so I would have a hard time making a general observation that way for what it's worth. Just my opinion.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Cynical25 said:


> ...How is your (a general your, not bsms in particular) personal point of view more normal than the personal point of view of WP enthusiasts such as myself?


"Normal" can be normal for the general horse population, or normal for WP bred horses...or normal for an Arabian. To know what is intended, one has to guess from the context, or what one knows about the speaker (writer).

This fellow discusses long and low training, and the effect of the nuchal ligament:

"The nuchal ligament, which can be compared to a strong bungee cord, elongates assisting the upper neck muscles in their task of supporting the head and neck. The nuchal ligament replaces 55% or more of the work of the upper neck muscles at the walk. At the trot and canter, the assistance of the nuchal ligament replaces between 32 to 34% of the work of the upper neck muscles. As the horse lowers the neck, the tension of the nuchal ligament increases and the work of the upper neck muscles decreases...

...Neck postures are convenient short cuts promising results that are in fact the outcome of precise coordination of the horse’s physique, starting with the decelerating and propulsive activity of the hind legs and continuing with the capacity of the back muscles to convert the thrust generated by the hind legs into horizontal forces, forward movement, and vertical forces, resisting attraction of gravity and therefore balance control. Proper vertebral column mechanism allows the forelegs to propel the horse’s body upward and forward. The horse is then placing and using the neck to further enhance balance control and quality and accuracy of the limbs kinematics. Pretending that such efficient coordination can result from the lowering of the neck is fiction. The problem is that fiction does not prepare efficiently the horse’s physique for the athletic demand of the performance."

Stretching the Neck

By itself, stretching the neck out and extending the head forward MUST shift balance toward the front. IIRC, it increases the load on the front legs by +2%, so a horse walking with a normal 57:43 balance would go to around 59:41 - the opposite of collection, which seeks a 50:50 balance. However, a horse in motion can compensate for it by adjusting "the decelerating and propulsive activity of the hind legs and continuing with the capacity of the back muscles to convert the thrust generated by the hind legs into horizontal forces, forward movement, and vertical forces, resisting attraction of gravity"..and so on.

That is why I think most non-experts, including a recreational rider like myself, should concentrate on the back instead of the head. When riding, does the horse feel relaxed, loose, free? Does the horse feel like he is comfortable? I think it is fairly easy to feel if the horse has shifted its balance to the rear or not, or if the back is supple or tight. You can then ride strengthening or suppling exercises to condition the horse to be stronger and more supple - and let the head go where the horse needs it for its build and its conditioning. A good rider can ask for a different head position to help the horse learn that position X is more comfortable, but I think there are a lot fewer "good riders" than there are "riders who think they are good". :?

My Arabian mare would be unbalanced if she tried to move in a WP style. I'll grant a WP-bred horse might well be uptight and unhappy if moving like Mia does on her good days. I do dislike the idea of trying to force a headset on any horse, unless one is already riding at a very high level. With rare exceptions, I think "normal" riders should ride the back and not the head - which includes not judging another rider's horse by its head position.


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## sorral3 (Jun 7, 2013)

I love it when these threads go so far off topic!!!! Time for round 2..ding..lol

I express my opinions as just that, my opinion. I do not profess to be the end all, be all of knowledge. I do believe, show horses have ruined the quarter horse breed. Halter horse influences have made feet smaller than they should be, because " it looks good in the show" , WP has developed a down hill horse with a head/ neck set too low to be truly athletic for the qh intended purpose....racing, then cow work. I personally like a bit of TB tossed back in the blood lines to help correct these "show mistakes". 

As far as the training goes, higher level trainers can accomplish the goals with relatively little "forcing" or brutality. The reality is, most show horses are the product of the unskilled, backyard trainer / show rider who finds any way to get the result. Is this any of my business, NO, I really don't care about other people's horses or what they do. I can only work with my horse the way I believe I should. If she works good and stays healthy with quality care, then I keep her and enjoy her. If not, down the road she goes. I am not going to protest and hold up signs to stop shows, I just won't participate in them. Heck, the horses I like, the more "natural" ones tend to cost less anyway...lol


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Cynical25 said:


> So from ONE experience, you've proven that ALL horses naturally want to hold their heads higher? I can't agree.


That isn't what I said - I was just giving one example.
My point was that not all WP horses have a naturally low head carriage
A headset that is as low as some of these WP horses, or as 'collected' as a dressage horse should be attained through correct schooling so the horse is ridden into it and not forced into it using restraints that give pain
A good WP should be able to work with its head in any position - a dressage horse can go in 'free walk' when asked with its head/neck really low, its not because its naturally that low but because its being cued to do it


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

I agree with jaydee. Not all WP horses have a naturally low head carriage, but forcing them to do it by ripping on their mouths is not correct - and it's not correct training for any horse. But, on the same note, WP horses who do have a naturally low head carriage should not be thought of as being abused to get that head carriage. 

Of course I never understand when people say pleasure horses are ruining quarter horses. Last time I checked the racing QH industry and the cow horse industry were alive and well. And I believe the cutting horses were usually the most downhill horses I have ever seen and ridden in my life, so I don't really think it's fair to blame that on pleasure horses alone. :/

But then we could go on about this ad nauseam.


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## Cynical25 (Mar 7, 2013)

Exactly.


I do take it personally when people make a generalization that all WP horses are forced into unatural movement and body carriage, because that assumption erroneously includes my horses and myself.


I want to work with a horse's natural inclinations, not against them, and I specifically chose my horse because low and slow is how he naturally maintains his balance. Sure, I could cue Cash to carry his head higher (going back to the dressage horse free-walk analogy,) but forcing him to carry his head like an english horse would likely cause him distress and discomfort because that is not HIS normal.


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## Fort fireman (Mar 5, 2011)

HorseMom1025 said:


> It was an eye opener to me when we started showing our QH. Acey is somewhere around 98% foundation bred. She's short, stocky with thick legs. Some folks call her "cowy". When my daughter enters the ring at QH shows, Acey is a pretty dramatic contrast to the other horses. (I teasingly call them the "super models" and Acey is more "mare next door").
> 
> My daughter quickly lost interest in Western Pleasure for many reasons. Acey's head set in not naturally low and it's a lot of work to keep it down (we have a trainer helping, but she warned us that it will never be WP low). Her jog and lope are always extended (she was used for play days and trail riding before we bought her), so we are working on slowing her down, but Kitten, my 11 year old daughter, doesn't find slow fun. She just doesn't enjoy it, we're not sure we'll ever be competitive with our horse, so, while we still work on WP and HMS sometimes, it is no longer our focus.
> 
> ...


She sounds like she would be better in the ranch horse classes.:lol: Absolutely nothing wrong with that!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

2BigReds said:


> *My horse also has his head up when turned out, but he also isn't collected when he's running around like an idiot or simply standing in the field. He even has it up when we're riding if he's not soft and collected*. When he is, however, his more natural position is a level head on a draped rein. I can get him up into a Dressage type headset and on the bit while collected and soft as well, but I find he prefers a more western-geared headset when he's really working his body correctly because that's his breeding. It's not as low as some fancier WP or reining horses, but it's level and he does it himself when he's working and thinking. I've ridden plenty of dressage horses who are heavily bred for what they do and I find that they are more comfortable working correctly on the bit than the typical western bred mount is.
> 
> Different breeding and conformation produces a different style of horse _when working_ regardless of how they act in the field. Some carry themselves much the same way, but some don't. It depends a lot on the individual as well so I would have a hard time making a general observation that way for what it's worth. Just my opinion.



Horses head is up when out in the field running around mostly because he is either posturing excitement ,or is looking far into the distance, which requires a horse to lift their head. When two horses that don't know each other approach each other you will see some high heads. If the are trtting, you may see a lovely, collected trot in self carriage. A QH. Might not have his head as high as another breed, but it will b. lot higher than you'd see in a show ring.


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## HorseMom1025 (Jul 17, 2012)

Fort fireman said:


> She sounds like she would be better in the ranch horse classes.:lol: Absolutely nothing wrong with that!


LOL! We've actually done a little team sorting on her and Kitten had lots of fun with that. . However, right now she's more into English riding and just does Western events (like sorting) for fun. We don't want a "one trick pony", so we're ok knowing that we will never excel in any discipline. I'm mostly focused on Kitten enjoying her horse and being able to ride well. 

When we were trying out all the various classes at the shows, we tried WP too. It just didn't work out for us. I admire the riders, trainers and horses that master their classes and make it look effortless. I love seeing rider and horse working together as a team and living what they do. 

I've actually seen Oh Vair Oh's filly at a show and she is gorgeous! It's a joy to watch her move and a joy to see them working together. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

I did some research for a college paper and found that the horses heads being held that low caused damage to the horses front end. My friend grew up showing western pleasure horses. She got out fo it for a few years and recently went to watch a show. She was sick! All the horses she liked would lose. She would then pick out the gimpiest most pathetic looking horse and figured it would be the one to win. she was right 99% of the time the ENTIER show! all 15 classes. THAT is sad.


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## dressagebelle (May 13, 2009)

I just have to add my two cents. I personally do not like WP in the slightest. That being said, I do see a lot of "trainers" and riders yanking in their horse's mouths pretty harshly to get their heads down, which baffles me, because logically they should raise their heads in that case to get away from the pressure, and they do start bracing. I'm not a fan of the going really slow, but i don't think it's "cruel" to ask the horse to move slower, or to keep a pace he or she is comfortable with. I have met some good WP trainers who do actually look for what dressage riders look for, just in a different way, they DO want the horse engaged in the back, they don't want the peanut rolling, but they do want a level head, not a dressage type head set, and they are concerned with the whole frame of the horse and how the horse is going, and no yanking or excessive force is used to get those results. WP is not my cup of tea, but I've seen quite a few horses that are obviously happy and relaxed doing their thing, and their owners do care very much, and aren't mean. 

I do have to agree though that the FUN seems to have gone out of a lot of shows. Young kids are getting thrown up on made school horses that win the classes no matter how the rider is doing, because the horse is such a push button point and shoot, and I've seen WP people come to local FUN shows on their $10,000 (yes someone actually was bragging about how much their horse cost), and again winning all the classes they enter, and those who are there for fun, on horses that maybe aren't the ideal, but they just want to get a taste of showing, are left feeling like the only way to win is to have an expensive horse, or a big name trainer, or something else. When I started I was glad that most people were new to riding, had horses that maybe weren't the ideal, but no one cared, it truly was just for fun, and everyone had a good time. Now quite a few of the people have big name trainers, and if certain riders show up, I've seen half the group of people already there leave, because they know that those riders are going to win, and they don't want to waste their time or money. Sad but true. I love showing, and honestly I recently showed a TB mare at an Arabian show, we entered the sport horse classes where you didn't have to be a purebred or even part bred Arabian, and I had a blast, and knowing that they were Arab judges (though they loved the TB), made it so I didn't feel quite as competitive or frustrated if I didn't win, and I could just focus on having fun, getting some feedback on my riding skills, and do a show again.


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## Cynical25 (Mar 7, 2013)

Why does anyone who's had a passing glance at WP feel obligated to criticize the entire discipline, while simultaneously ignoring the thoughts and experiences of those who regularly follow, participate and enjoy the sport in question? So discouraging.


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## hisangelonly (Oct 29, 2011)

I am not bashing WP as a whole. Only the trainers and riders who use harsh methods to win. And you're right there were definitely people at this open fun show with their $10k-$20k horses. There were some that were moving nicely and looked happy and other horses looked down right miserable (including the horses having their mouths yanked off). There were also a lot of people on their every day horses just having fun. I just wish it were judged on the horse's natural movement, manners, if it is a pleasure to ride, and cooperation with the rider. The way I thought it was supposed to be judged with the headset is it doesn't matter how low or high the horse's head is, as long as the head stays at the same level at all gaits. Last year at this same show series I actually watched it all and the $10-$20 thousand dollar horses were being placed at the top of the class. I am not so sure about this year though. Different judge. Last year's judge was an AQHA/APHA judge. WhichI don't understand if its supposed to be an OPEN ALL BREED SHOW. Is she judging based on QH standards only? Because there were arabs out there too. But it is true that there are bad people in every discipline. Its sad that people refer to short cuts in training. I imagine they are trying to get a "show ready" horse in a short amount of time, therefore they will do anything it takes to get the horses head low and make it slow down. I am very thankful for all the people who do take the time to keep their horse friends happy and train them correctly. I just wish judges could see "behind the scenes"


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

The judges don't care. My BF REFUSES to show if its a judged event as he dose not trust them, and after seeing what they are doing to breeds, I don't ether. I Like western pleasure horses that move at an even smooth clip, not fast, but not drugged slow. I want to see a horse with a level NATURAL low head set, not dragging its nose on the ground.


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## SketchyHorse (May 14, 2012)

Cynical25 said:


> Why does anyone who's had a passing glance at WP feel obligated to criticize the entire discipline, while simultaneously ignoring the thoughts and experiences of those who regularly follow, participate and enjoy the sport in question? So discouraging.


It's the same as anyone who's had a passing glance at Dressage. What we ask of our horses must be unnatural and disgusting. Everyone must rollkur their horses to achieve what they do. I'm sure if you head over to the Dressage section you'll find this exact same conversation. Or over to the Gaited sections - there's a ton of hate towards people who do certain things in that discipline that even if they DON'T conform to the harsh training gets lumped into one "crap sack."

Every discipline has people who don't like it & people who do. Not everyone is going to conform to an idea that it has to be okay because _somewhere _there's actually people who do it right. When all you have experience with is your small local hub of classes - it's going to create a biased mindset. You just kinda have to be content to know that YOU don't do it, even if everyone & their mother does, you are NOT part of that group.

Anyway. That being said - I personally don't like WP. Not my cup of tea. Exactly like how HoF or Dressage isn't yours. Everyone has different interests. Can you admit there are things in Dressage and looks of certain horses you don't like? Yes. I'm sure there is/are. Just like I don't like the unnatural slow jerky movements & peanut rolling some people still do in WP. Does that mean I think everyone in WP does it? No. I've seen well ridden WP horses that looked _natural _and enjoyed how they were being ridden.

Don't want you to feel like I'm jumping all over you >.> But WP isn't the "only discipline" getting attacked. Every discipline is going to be nitpicked when you throw bad eggs in the bunch. I'm pretty sure Roping was getting picked on awhile back somewhere.

And yes, I've owned a pleasure bred horse who liked to carry his head naturally low. That was his comfort zone. I nurtured that and allowed him to move where he felt comfortable. I think that's the biggest thing to remember in any discipline. The horse's natural conformation and asking them to do what's _comfortable. _










I'm sure where his head is doesn't look "low," but it was lower than all my girls chose. That was his spot where he was collected best, happiest, and working well. I think he looks awesome. Just like I think a happy WP horse looks awesome, or a happy Dressage horse. I loved that Cowboy Dressage video someone posted elsewhere. That horse held his head where he liked it, moved naturally, and just looked like a happy horse. Whew anyway think I kinda started rambling...


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## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

I must say I think I've seen more mouth man handling at barrel/gymkhana shows then at any western show I've attended.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hisangelonly (Oct 29, 2011)

SlideStop said:


> I must say I think I've seen more mouth man handling at barrel/gymkhana shows then at any western show I've attended.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This too. Mainly play days. It seems pretty rampant in the speed events :/. I mean there are some people who really do a good job but yeah a lot of people at play days are hard on the mouth.
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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

I still don't understand why people think breed show people are not allowed at local fun shows. What's wrong with going to practice on a $10k horse? Seems like a lot of people are just plain jealous. Usually the 5 figure horses will be placed at the top of the class because it's not cheap to breed and train pleasure horses! Sorry! Showing is not a pity contest. The judge doesn't see who "deserves" it more than the other person. All they see is what is in front of them right there. How can you honestly say someone else does not deserve to win because they spent more money than you? Can you really judge a person because they have a nice horse? Have you even talked to them?

Good grief. If you were really there for fun you would be thankful that these people showed up to support and give money to your club to put on more shows. I am just appalled at the lack of sportsmanship by all people. Just because someone has a more expensive horse than you doesn't mean they don't work just as hard and don't deserve to be there. If you think someone is being out of line then tell your show organizers.


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## HorseMom1025 (Jul 17, 2012)

Oh Vair Oh, I don't disagree, but it can be difficult to attract more into the sport when there is just no chance in heck you will ever place in a class. When you have a $25,000 finished show horse with a world title competing against a $1,000 school horse used for lessons...there is a big difference. Kids DO need to learn how to win and lose gracefully, but they also grow discouraged and quit something they love when they are constantly losing due to an obvious lack of resources.

I wish there was a show circuit more suited to those just starting out and wanting to have fun. But I haven't found it yet. 4H is supposed to be that way, but the competitive nature of many parents/riders has encroached on that venue as well. I'm hoping that the new leveling program with AQHA may help even things up.

As I've stated, our goals are not to take Acey to Congrss or World. We show so that my daughter can learn about competition, sportsmanship, working as a team with her horse and trainer, and to see how her riding is progressing. We have found that showmanship and equitation classes work best for us, because it is supposed to be judged on the handler/rider and not all about the horse. We have beaten the finished show horses in those classes because my daughter is a good little rider and improving every day. . That makes me proud and I hope it helps give Kitten the incentive to keep with the sport.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hisangelonly (Oct 29, 2011)

I think kitten Is the cutest name.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HorseMom1025 (Jul 17, 2012)

hisangelonly said:


> I think kitten Is the cutest name.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


LOL! She has a "real" name, but my pet name for her is Kitten. I use it on the web to help protect her privacy. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

In a WP. Show who is being jucged: horse or rider?


For example, in dressage it is the horse who is being judged.


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## hisangelonly (Oct 29, 2011)

tinyliny said:


> In a WP. Show who is being jucged: horse or rider?
> 
> 
> For example, in dressage it is the horse who is being judged.


I believe it's the horse. The quality of gait, manners, and if the horse looks to be a pleasure to ride
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hisangelonly (Oct 29, 2011)

HorseMom1025 said:


> LOL! She has a "real" name, but my pet name for her is Kitten. I use it on the web to help protect her privacy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That is what I figured lol but still adorable
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_
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## HorseMom1025 (Jul 17, 2012)

My understanding (based on AQHA class descriptions):

Halter - All about the horse (handler should be properly dressed, hats are required).

Showmanship - ground class that is judged on how well the handler communicates with the horse and how well the horse responds to the instructions.

Western Pleasure / English Hunter under Saddle - ridden on the rail. The riders are asked to perform all the gaits, reverse and back. Primarily judged on the horses movement the gaits, transitions, etc. The rider is also judged (but not as much) because they prefer that the communication between horse and rider be "effortless" in appearance. A rider constantly in their horse's face, kicking, spurring, etc will not normally place.

Western Horsemanship / English Equitation - pattern class. The rider must navigate their mount through a pattern that can include circles, serpentines, reverse, turn, at different gaits and with lead/diagonal changes. Once again judged on how well the rider communicates with their horse. Judges prefer "quiet" riders over riders who use lots of obvious movements and aids for communication.

So, there's the summary of my (admittedly) limited knowledge of how these classes are judged. . I'm still learning though!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

HorseMom1025 said:


> Oh Vair Oh, I don't disagree, but it can be difficult to attract more into the sport when there is just no chance in heck you will ever place in a class. When you have a $25,000 finished show horse with a world title competing against a $1,000 school horse used for lessons...there is a big difference. Kids DO need to learn how to win and lose gracefully, but they also grow discouraged and quit something they love when they are constantly losing due to an obvious lack of resources.
> 
> I wish there was a show circuit more suited to those just starting out and wanting to have fun. But I haven't found it yet. 4H is supposed to be that way, but the competitive nature of many parents/riders has encroached on that venue as well. I'm hoping that the new leveling program with AQHA may help even things up.
> 
> ...



Hey, I was that girl. I could barely place in an open show when I was first starting out. I was 9 years old. I had no trainer, no idea what shaping my hat was supposed to be, I didn't even know how to quarter. I got beat by "those girls" all the time! And I hated it! But instead of making me feel bad, or discouraged, it inspired me to be better. Train better. Learn more. Ask questions. Work for people who were the best in the industry. Learn their secrets. Make my own way. Save money. Invest in important items. Work hard. Work harder. Keep my ethics. Earn it the right way.

So I can't afford a $10k horse outright. BUT I could afford to breed one. Instead of buying a $5000 above average broke horse, we spent $5000 breeding "the" horse. Lily's siblings are for sale for $12,000 and $15,000 as _yearlings_. I don't have a trainer, I can't afford one. But I work for trainers. I spent $300 on a show halter and $200 on a show suit when I only make $600 a month because I scrimped and saved every penny. Then on the other side, I wear a $10 hunt coat from a tack sale and hand-me-down Tailored Sportsmans that my mom wore 20 years ago! I borrowed someones hunt boots that were 2 sizes too big to show at the world championships in! - and I got 7th!

My friend bought her halter horse from a sale for $700, and this year they were top 10 at AQHA Amateur World - all by herself!

I can only afford to go to 2 "big breed" shows a year. I cannot afford to practice at a breed show every month. Open shows are closer, cheaper, and give my horse more experience being around people who are inexperienced. And sometimes I feel like now I am "that girl". I have gotten some really mean words thrown my way from open show people just because I "look the part". But trust me when I say I have the least amount of money in my bank account but the most expensive horse I've ever owned in my life. It only took me 10 years to get there. xD

And also, I've worked for the people who own $60k and $70k horses. They have a lot of problems just like any other person would. Everyone has a journey in life. It's not fair to judge people by what they have and have not. You don't know their story.

People who are truly passionate about showing will not be discouraged by people who have more than they do. They will make it work, one way or another, because it's in their will to work hard. And it makes the victory all the more sweeter when "that girl", or even in my case, "that name trainer", places under you.  Just my opinion!


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## HorseMom1025 (Jul 17, 2012)

Oh Vair Oh, having watched you with Lily at a show or two, I truly admire you. I think you have done it right. Mean people suck, unfortunately they seem to be everywhere. . 

I am not lucky enough to be able to give my daughter a finished show horse (or breed my own)...and she wouldn't trade her bratty/loveable mare even if I could . But, I have seen her frustration and hurt at shows where a judge places her last even when she was obviously better than some of the horses placed above her. (Not just my or my trainer's opinion, even some of the other rider's parents mentioned it). 

The kid who won the class completely blew the pattern, but they had the "best horse". It's not right, but competitors have little recourse. Could I file a protest? Yes. It would cost me $$$ and there is no guarantee it would go anywhere. It's not worth it for a piece of satin and a few points toward year end awards. Instead, we chalk it up to a learning experience and I quietly mention it to the show organiser. I do know that there is one judge who probably won't be invited back due to that type of bias. That's the best we can do.

I think the bottom line (back on topic) is that there are bad trainers, riders, and judges is every equine competition. Those of us who choose to compete must do OUR best to not imitate those few bad apples. Change in the sport begins with each individual. We cannot give up and should continue to work toward PROVING that our gently trained methods produce even better results. 

I'm setting out to prove to my daughter that even on her foundation QH, she can still compete against the "super models"...she will just have to work harder. The rewards will be great because she is a better rider than those kids who rely mostly on their horse to get them through the class. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

HorseMom1025 said:


> Oh Vair Oh, having watched you with Lily at a show or two, I truly admire you. I think you have done it right. Mean people suck, unfortunately they seem to be everywhere. .
> 
> I am not lucky enough to be able to give my daughter a finished show horse (or breed my own)...and she wouldn't trade her bratty/loveable mare even if I could . But, I have seen her frustration and hurt at shows where a judge places her last even when she was obviously better than some of the horses placed above her. (Not just my or my trainer's opinion, even some of the other rider's parents mentioned it).
> 
> ...


And she will be "that girl" in the end, because just imagine how good she'll be in 10 years! (BTW, Acey is a wonderful horse, I really think she deserves a lot more credit! I think you guys could really clean up at ABRA shows.)

Everybody has to start somewhere. Just like Kitten, I had to be a good rider/horseperson first. I had to make due with what I had. And I didn't have much at first! But I made it look good.  People who are handed nice horses aren't the ones who the trainer's choose to be their assistants.

Now I feel so blessed to have a horse that I feel matches what I have to offer. Truly, truly blessed. I have loved all my horses, even the ones who were conformationally challenged. But this horse is my one in a million chance of getting somewhere. My life's goal has always been to win a world championship using natural methods. Everything I do drives me to that goal. I eat, sleep, and dream about that neck ribbon. What once seemed so far away when I was 9 years old, so impossible, is now suddenly so feasible. It just takes a little time, patience, and determination. 

Sure, there are huge trainers showing huge horses in the same classes as me at the big breed shows. But I remain true to myself and true to my horse. I've already won in the end. A big ribbon would just be the icing on the cake!


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## Rideordie112 (Dec 7, 2013)

HorseMom1025 said:


> Oh Vair Oh, having watched you with Lily at a show or two, I truly admire you. I think you have done it right. Mean people suck, unfortunately they seem to be everywhere. .
> 
> I am not lucky enough to be able to give my daughter a finished show horse (or breed my own)...and she wouldn't trade her bratty/loveable mare even if I could . But, I have seen her frustration and hurt at shows where a judge places her last even when she was obviously better than some of the horses placed above her. (Not just my or my trainer's opinion, even some of the other rider's parents mentioned it).
> 
> ...



You sound just like my mom when I was heartbroken at shows as a child. That same type of persserverance, and drive and learning to win and lose with grace made me the person I am today. I have so much more confidence in myself, and my horse who's not a 10k horse. But through hard work, and support my mom showed me that we could beat the "supermodels"
Your daughter is very lucky to have someone as supportive as you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HorseMom1025 (Jul 17, 2012)

I need to do more research on ABRA. I just haven't seen very many shows in our area. . As best I can tell, we would need to drive to San Antonio/Austin or up to Oklahoma for one or two shows a year.

I really wish I could find more of those shows. We do really well in color classes because Acey has those beautiful primitive dun markings to go with her pretty red dun coloring. . If the judge isn't focused in the flashy paint horses, we tend to place high. 

WP isn't our class, but I've seen some beautiful WP movers and can see the appeal. I'm not a fan of that odd looking lope (troping?), but that's just my opinion. Kitten thinks horses with their noses on the ground look "sad"...so she doesn't like making Acey drop her head too low. I guess it's all about what each individual likes...as long as getting there doesn't hurt the horse. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## danicelia24 (Jul 16, 2013)

I rode western pleasure for 4 years and even though my mentor wanted the gelding I rode to look and act like those horses he was more of an English mover so it was really difficult to train him to collect himself and slow down his gates so much that he was barely moving... i hated it which is why I don't ride with her anymore..my mentor said that a good wp lope is one that you can keep up with at a walk. and the devices used to train the horses to have such low headsets is cruel in and of themselves I can tell you more about them if you want


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## danicelia24 (Jul 16, 2013)

HorseMom1025 said:


> Kitten thinks horses with their noses on the ground look "sad"...so she doesn't like making Acey drop her head too low. I guess it's all about what each individual likes...as long as getting there doesn't hurt the horse.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My dad said making the horses heads that low made them look ashamed of themselves.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

danicelia24 said:


> ...my mentor said that a good wp lope is one that you can keep up with at a walk. and the devices used to train the horses to have such low headsets is cruel in and of themselves I can tell you more about them if you want


I dislike watching WP and have no desire to ride or compete in it. However, if a low headset comes from cruelty, it is because the rider is cruel and uncaring - a problem that can be found in any area of competition, or any area of riding.

Here are two pictures of my non-WP Arabian mare. In one, we are cantering and she is thinking about getting competitive with our Appy, who is coming up behind her:










In this one, she is hanging around, being lazy before a ride:










Her head when lazy isn't grossly higher than the desired headset of a WP competition, although there are obviously some WP riders who want lower. However - if it is not uncomfortable for an Arabian mare who frequently lifts her head to look around to carry it nearly level, I doubt any cruelty is required to breed or teach a WP competition horse to carry its head level or lower.

Even on this picture from a trail ride, when she is looking around, her headset when doing a relaxed jog is barely above level - and I do NOTHING to influence her head position. If that is true with a purebred Arabian mare, how much more so for a QH, particularly one bred for WP?










WP is not cruel. Dressage is not cruel. Jumping is not cruel. Barrel racing is not cruel. Trail riding is not cruel. Bits are not cruel. But unhappily, some PEOPLE are cruel...:evil:


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## danicelia24 (Jul 16, 2013)

While true the horse I rode naturally carried his head a little high...my mentor had another girl ride him in a device that made his head hang low and once he gave in because of the immense pressure on his poll and mouth they would tighten it even more one day the horse reared up and over backwards cause he hated his head being so restricted
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## GamingGrrl (Jan 16, 2013)

danicelia24 said:


> While true the horse I rode naturally carried his head a little high...my mentor had another girl ride him in a device that made his head hang low and once he gave in because of the immense pressure on his poll and mouth they would tighten it even more one day the horse reared up and over backwards cause he hated his head being so restricted
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Your "mentor" had no idea what she was doing then, and was cruel.
I ride a western pleasure horse, and she naturally lopes and jogs with a level headset, even in turnout. To get her to drop her head, she needs light rein pressure and light spur (emphasis on light) and she'll drop her head all the way to the ground if I want. 
Not all WP horses are trained using shortcuts, and IMO devices like draw reins are not cruel when used correctly, with a snaffle and not relied on like a crutch. That being said, I rarely ride my horse in draw reins, and if i do, it's for 5-10 minutes after warming up if I feel like she's blowing off my cues.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I think Danicelia's mentor knew exactly what she was doing - using force and pain to get what she wanted from the horse
That does not make it right - but it does happen
I'm curious to know what a the accepted headset is in these classes - if its a natural level then that's not what I'm seeing in this video. Surely working at such a slow pace in this frame puts a lot of strain on a horse?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOLV7Mj0OUw


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## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

jaydee said:


> I think Danicelia's mentor knew exactly what she was doing - using force and pain to get what she wanted from the horse
> That does not make it right - but it does happen
> I'm curious to know what a the accepted headset is in these classes - if its a natural level then that's not what I'm seeing in this video. Surely working at such a slow pace in this frame puts a lot of strain on a horse?
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOLV7Mj0OUw



Ugh. That looks entirely UN natural to me. Too slow, too low. I guess it is all what one is use to though. I have been around a LOT of Quarter horses though and I have never seen one that moved like that or held it's head like that completely naturally. All disciplines do things to "enhance" the horses movement and headset though.


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## Cynical25 (Mar 7, 2013)

jaydee said:


> I'm curious to know what a the accepted headset is in these classes - if its a natural level then that's not what I'm seeing in this video. Surely working at such a slow pace in this frame puts a lot of strain on a horse?
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOLV7Mj0OUw


There are some very nice headsets in this video, IMO. Not many are too low.

I feel like a broken record: This pace and headset starts with the breeding. I promise every horse in this ring would choose to move at a slow pace, even if they never received any WP training. These horses have been conditioned to be able to hold that collection to slow it down even more, the same as a dressage horse is conditioned to hold their frame. A few are overcollected at the lope, and you see head bobbing as a result - but as a whole, it's an attractive class.


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## LovesMyDunnBoy (Aug 11, 2011)

I'm not a fan of WP. I think it had the potential to be a good sport but most people (and I don't mean everyone) has taken it to such an extreme level that it's just not something I want to see. 

If I had to choose, I've say reining is one of the better sports that actually showcase a more natural movement. 

Of course, every sport has the potential to be cruel. Every THING has the potential to be cruel.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"In the USEF, this constituted implementing specific rules, including a strict requirement that a horse must have its poll no lower than the height of its withers, or, in the case of the AQHA, a rule stating that the ideal gait shall be performed with a "level topline."" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_pleasure

I doubt a slow jog puts any significant pressure on a horse - no more so than does dressage, and probably less than jumping. I'd be more concerned about horses that are required to turn fast at speed, or the Thoroughbred has been damaged by an emphasis on speed without caring about durability.

Screen shots from jaydee's video, taken at random during the jogging phase:








​ 






​ 
It is not something I would ever train Mia to do. Quite the opposite. But harmful? And I think it shows the peanut roller days are either gone or fading into the past...

And here is our 3/4 Arabian, 1/4 Appy gelding...is he doing 'WP' with my daughter? Would she score, if she picked up the reins and put her feet in the stirrups? How hard do you think she had to work to get THAT headset...:lol:








​


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## Fort fireman (Mar 5, 2011)

danicelia24 said:


> While true the horse I rode naturally carried his head a little high...my mentor had another girl ride him in a device that made his head hang low and once he gave in because of the immense pressure on his poll and mouth they would tighten it even more one day the horse reared up and over backwards cause he hated his head being so restricted
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Those are short cuts and rarely work effectively.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

bsms - the headset on your daughters pony looks more correct to me re. my interpretation of what's level than some of the ones in the ring
The slow jog isn't going to hurt anything but I'm not so sure about that exaggerated lope which IMO looks disunited and un natural


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

^^ I will agree that the exaggerated lope of WP drives me nuts, as does the slower than molasses in January trot. However, a while back I tried to find an actual study on injuries in horses who are trained for WP. I found one, but it didn't indicate any unusual injury patterns.

I don't train for WP, nor will I ever do so. It has nothing to do with anything that gives me pleasure in western riding. I kind of feel about it the way I feel about western dressage - it isn't for me & I don't understand its purpose, but if it gets folks out enjoying their horses and trying to become better riders, why should I get upset?

I dislike the headset, but prefer the motion in the Arabian WP world. I wish AQHA WP would move in this direction. If they would also allow the horse to look around, then I think I could get interested in learning this:

US Arabian Western Pleasure Open Final - YouTube

2011 Arabian Horse National Western Pleasure Championship - YouTube


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

This is a screen capture from the 2011 Arabian Horse National WP Championship (6:39). I really dislike the headset (why can't people let the horse look where it is going?), but I think it shows an approach to WP that many of us would find more comfortable and "pleasurable":










I also like the galloping at around the 10 minute mark...​


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I think the natural higher curve of the Arabians neck doesn't blend well with WP - its likely why they end up behind the vertical and looking at the ground


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## MoonlightMystique (Dec 27, 2013)

I ride and show western pleasure arabs and are completely against that. Yes, that does happen often which is sad but, its just how people train. At my barn we collect much differently then what others barn do and you can definitely see that in the show ring!


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I'll preface this by saying that I don't particularly care for WP as a discipline. That isn't a dig against those of you who do it, it's just that that style of movement and that frame don't even remotely fit into my type of riding. For the most part, I'm a working cowgirl and I prefer to have my horses with their heads either wither level or slightly above...just wherever in there is comfortable for them.

NOW, on a good WP horse, the headset is natural. Like OVO with Lily, that's how she's bred to carry her head so that's how she does. It won't take much to keep in there in the course of her training.

Along with that, a good trainer can take a horse with less than ideal conformation and get the best out of them. On those highly trained horses who have a lot of knowledge with riders who have a lot of knowledge and high expectations, sometimes you do have to give them a bump in the mouth or on the sides to remind them to wake up and get down to business.

However, those folks that you see that are yanking the horse's into a low headset, they are just bad riders all the way around, regardless of discipline.

Horses who are bred to move like that, and even some who aren't, can do well just by being relaxed and cadenced.

Just as an example. this filly is cow and racing bred. I know both sides of her lines and there is zero breeding for headset in there. Also, don't assume that this is the result of "training" either as this was her first ride. It was just where she was comfortable and I encouraged that.









With a little bit of work, she could have easily had a WP headset and speed. She never would have done well at higher levels because she's got too much action, but at local shows where the training is really more important than the natural ability? She could have cleaned house.

Anyway, my view on it is this. I may not like the discipline because it would have no practical purpose in my world, but I can still appreciate a good one. Those folks who try to force it? While they are way too prominent, it's not just in the WP discipline. Every discipline in the world has folks who try to claw their way to the top on their horses bleeding mouths and sides.


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## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

bsms said:


> T I really dislike the headset (why can't people let the horse look where it is going?), but I think it shows an approach to WP that many of us would find more comfortable and "pleasurable":
> ​



Personally this is the look I prefer for Western Pleasure. To me, this really looks like a pleasure to ride horse and to me, the horse looks happier.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Here is the look I prefer:










Or even our first time in years using a western saddle:










However, I have no objection to folks riding their horses in dressage or Western Pleasure. I dislike most headsets - I think we ought to ride the back and the legs, not the head. But a lot of horses have been ridden English 'on the bit' without any harm to the horse...and I see no harm in WP. Like I said, though, apart from the headset, the Arabian WP is closer to my idea of fun riding than the QH WP...but there is room for others to make a different choice. If their choice gets them riding and caring for their horse and being serious about riding well...then it is OK by me. :wink:


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

I like WP,when you see a horse trained right & has natural ability. Despite the breed there is poor trainers out there that try to mold a WP horse in short time frame or try to make one do the job it hasn't got the natural ability to do. 

I like to use this video as an example of how I would like to see more horses go:wink: he was actually used as example in a WP instructional video for AQHA judges. Many may not like the look of a well trained WP horse,but know myself, i'd love to ride on one like him:lol:


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

danicelia24 said:


> My dad said making the horses heads that low made them look ashamed of themselves.


My Dad says they look old and tired with their heads hanging low, especially when they are also moving at a snail's pace. He always says "What would the cowboys in the old west do on a horse like that?" I have no idea Dad, lol!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I only watched the first minute of that video, on Radical Revolution,but where the judge says his feet strike the ground at the same time in the trot, but if you look , they do NOT. his trot is closer to a walk, having four beats. the diagonal pairs are not completely joined, and there is absolutely no suspension. I do not think it is possible to actually trot without there being a moment of suspension when you are changing from one diagonal pair to the other. it's a bit like race walking; you are going really fast, but there is never even a second when both feet (human) are off the ground at the same time. 

he is a alovely horse, and when he is trotting freely in the pasture, it is a correct trot, but under the rider, it is bogged down so that the front and rear leg of each diagonal pair get a split second seperated.

OK, I only watched a very little bit of the first part, and he looked better further on in the video. maybe he is keeping them linked. I am not sure. it's so very, very close.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

trailhorserider said:


> My Dad says they look old and tired with their heads hanging low, especially when they are also moving at a snail's pace. He always says "What would the cowboys in the old west do on a horse like that?" I have no idea Dad, lol!


Cowboys in the current west have no use for them either.


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## GamingGrrl (Jan 16, 2013)

Just adding that while my WP mare can clean up at shows, we also run on a drill team, and are starting cattle sorting.... ;-) 

Not speaking for all WP horses, but they do have more than one gear for the most part.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

It's easy to trash the disciplines that don't interest you or don't understand.:-( there is bad examples in all & questionable training practices.  I may not take interest in some other breeds & disciplines but I can keep an open mind & truly appreciate good examples of other breeds & discipline/ training lack of respect for your fellow equine lovers interests just breeds more closed minds & creates your own false stereotypes of those sharing your own equine interests.:wink:


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## danicelia24 (Jul 16, 2013)

this was the WP horse I rode...my mentor constantly told me he was too fast and even in this picture his head is WAY too high...at least that's what she said but he looks more comfortable and happier than in the other picture where his head is still too high but better


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

^ I don't see a high head; I see a hollow topline from lack of engagement, which is why the nose is in front of the vertical like that.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I've only skimmed the following study, but I think it might help to understand the difference and confusion caused by using terms differently in WP & Dressage:








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You may need to double click on the text image to see the print clearly. It comes from this study (234 pages, so it will be a while before I read it all):

http://etd.auburn.edu/etd/bitstream/handle/10415/2421/2010.10.15 - Final.pdf?sequence=2


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