# How do you deal with a rear on the ground?



## BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 (Apr 11, 2016)

Okay, I want to preface this by saying that I know this was not the best way to handle the situation, it caught me off guard.

So I was doing groundwork with my friend’s (not Cherokee’s owner) filly. It’s not unusual for her to have a ****y attitude when made to do something she doesn’t like, so being a little nippy and huffy demeanor was not surprising. We were just doing basic stop, start, and backing, nothing strenuous and nothing she had not done plenty before. When she tried to bite, I’d give her a pop with the lead rope and make her move more. Then we carried on like nothing had happened. I praised her a lot when she did what I wanted. 

After doing this for a while she was moving nicely, ears forward, and generally relaxed. Well given that she’s young, I didn’t want to do too much, and was about to let her go so we ended on a good note. Before I could though she went back to being nippy and pushy Did the same thing I had before, making being nasty harder and more work. Out of nowhere she threw her head up kind of threateningly, and I corrected her like I had when she’d done it before (only one or two other times, nowhere near a habit.) 

It then escalated however into a full-blown rearing and striking. I tried correcting her, but didn’t know how, and after she’d gotten me a couple times I figured it wasn’t worth getting killed over. I threw the rope across her shoulders to break the connection and when she turned to move away I chased her off, not letting her stop when she initially wanted to. I talked to the owner afterward and she’s going to address it.

I know that was probably not the best way to handle the situation, but I did not know what to do, as it's never happened before, just knew that I couldn’t let her get away with it unchallenged. It didn’t scare me at all honestly, it just got me to thinking that I need to understand how to correct something like this in the future, as I’m sure it will happen again with a horse sometime.

Any advice is welcome. Also let me know if anything is not clear, as i’ll be happy to clarify if I can.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Carry a whip, a stiff biting one, the moment she goes up, whack those front legs until she's got 'em on the ground again. You will only need to correct her, oh about once?


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Yeah I would have flipped on her.

I saw filly and was thinking "oh well could be a fluke, probably just ignore it" but... what a little WITCH!!

In the moment if you had enough room on the lead I would have whacked her with the end, if not pull her down and chase her around. (I don't know how big she is so don't take "pull her down" literally)

And honestly, you did the right thing. If you're in danger the right answer is always to do whatever you need to do to be safe.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I am not going to just address the rear by itself, as this hrose has been allowed to gain a bad attitude, period, and once horse does, they up the anti.
I am assuming all pain issues have been ruled out, as that disclaimer needs to be put it each time, or it comes up, as a reason!
Long, long before this horse ever got down right '****y', with a 'make me attitude, the idea she can apply teeth to human flesh, she should have been corrected
Rearing,and striking is a very aggressive action
How old is this horse, and exactly what repetitious routine are you doing, not that it is an excuse for bad behavior, but can sure help create a sour horse
There is a time for 'more work, but there is also a time to use the three second rule and correct the actual deed. Biting and rearing certainly fall into the three second rule for me.
Don'tpick at horses, making a game that the horse repeats, trying to see how far the envelope can be pushed, plus picking at horses just makes them resentful
Correct that horse Hard, firmly, once or so, to establish clear boundaries.
I would suggest that no one handle this horse, right now, if they are not able to make aggressive actions both unsuccessful, and also to have consequences.
Just working a horse more, is not it, in this case.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

when I read your post, it reminded me of a situation that happened to me when I was just starting to learn about so-called groundwork, naturalhorsemanship style. I thought I was hot do-do, and that I'd 'make' that mare do what I wanted. I was in real close with a whirling lead rope and pushing on her, while she was telling me, "leave me alone. I've had it!" (this was an older, barn sour mare that was a great ride , once you got her down the driveway).

well, the truth is, I had no finesse at all. I tried to push a square peg into a round hole, and thought I was all that and a piece of cake. she was more than I knew how to deal with, and when she went up and pawed the air AT me, even more when I swung the lead rope end to push her off, well, I let the rope go and stopped putting on pressure. It was a truly scary experience, and the first time I was bested by a horse. I realized that there are some who need a more experienced hand, with better feel and timing than I had. I think I'd do better now, becuase I wouldn't push her so hard, so as to put her between a rock and a hard place, where she went up.

I felt terrible, but when I asked my teacher, from whom I was learning ground work, she said I did the right thing. 
some horses need a bit more knowledge and experience to deal with. and they aren't always young or green. How much real experience do you have?

when I read your post, the description of the mare makes me think that working with her in close quarters, on a lead, is not the first things I'd start with. if she is resistant to being asked to do something she doesn't like doing, then , to me, the first thing is to take her into round pen, and get her to figure out that you can make her move her feet. 
there is some danger there, not having a rope on , but if she is literally attacking you when you are in teh round pen, with you keeping her out against the rail, then she is too much horse for you to handle, either at liberty OR on a rope.

but before that, I'd deal with the biting, and do it while you are in daily handling. I think some of our more experienced members talked about putting a small nail between your fingers, closed around it so that only a bit sticks out, and making sure that your hand, with that nail facing the offending mouth, is positioned just right for the horse to run into the nail, next time it tries to bite.

my comments in red:



BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 said:


> Okay, I want to preface this by saying that I know this was not the best way to handle the situation, it caught me off guard.
> 
> So I was doing groundwork with my friend’s (not Cherokee’s owner) filly. It’s not unusual for her to have a ****y attitude why? do you know why? is this the same with all handlers?when made to do something she doesn’t like, so being a little nippy and huffy demeanor was not surprising. We were just doing basic stop, start, and backing,Here is where I'd save that for after you get her to GO. this horse is resistant and stuck, so getting her to GO is first. then backing.  nothing strenuous and nothing she had not done plenty before. When she tried to bite, I’d give her a pop with the lead rope and make her move more. If you hit a horse, it has to be VERY fast after the infraction, and pretty hard. in my opinion, shanking them with the leadline is better than making them go, because it is more immediate. make them go makes them mentally move to a different frame of mind "go forward', and they may not connect that with the bite. but a quick hard shank will make an impression.Then we carried on like nothing had happened. I praised her a lot when she did what I wanted. praise is pretty meaningless to horses. letting them stand, a good bit off from you and doing nothing is a better reward than petting or cuddling, or cooing.
> 
> ...


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## BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 (Apr 11, 2016)

Yogiwick said:


> Yeah I would have flipped on her.
> 
> I saw filly and was thinking "oh well could be a fluke, probably just ignore it" but... what a little WITCH!!
> 
> ...


She's probably around 14.2-15 hands, don't know about weight. I did whack her with the end of the lead rope but it didn't help much.



Smilie said:


> I am not going to just address the rear by itself, as this hrose has been allowed to gain a bad attitude, period, and once horse does, they up the anti.
> I am assuming all pain issues have been ruled out, as that disclaimer needs to be put it each time, or it comes up, as a reason!
> Long, long before this horse ever got down right '****y', with a 'make me attitude, the idea she can apply teeth to human flesh, she should have been corrected
> Rearing,and striking is a very aggressive action
> ...


I was actually kind of hoping you'd offer some input Smilie, since you're big in the training department.

Whenever I've handle her she's been corrected for even the smallest indication that she was trying to nip, kick, or be pushy. I don't put up with that stuff, and it has not been an issue for me before. She has not been worked with enough imo and therefore has not had that foundation of respect laid as she should have. She's 3. This is not something done on a regular basis, only occasionally. She doesn't just get put into endless circles or anything like that. This time, yes, I was asking her to walk quietly beside me in a large circle, also changing directions/speed a bit and doing other things like backing and yielding hindquarters. She honestly just has a very headstrong and dominate personality, plus does not like to work.

When correcting the biting and rearing, she got a sharp pop with the lead and an aggressive motion on my part, no tapping and going "Oh no honey don't do that" That's asking for trouble. What do you mean by having consequences, since you say what I did was not necessarily correct (which I assumed)? I've told the owner that somebody needs to really teach this horse how to behave, as she'd become dangerous, but I do not think that's gone through very well until now. :-x

She's been a pasture pet. Honestly has a good personality, and potential, I think it just needs direction. 

Honestly though I am also wanting input on my side of it, given that it was the intention of the thread. 

@tinyliny I think I managed to answer your questions above in this reply. I agree that she has become more horse than I can handle, and I do not plan to work her alone again anytime soon. I am not that experienced, she had just never been truly aggressive, and therefore I did not think basic groundwork would be an issue. I've never had issue leading her, and therefore this did not seem like much of a feat. Learning to read the horse better is also important for me to get a better grip on. Looking back what I took as just annoyed at having to work was also frustration, which I believe is partly my fault. Letting her rear and strike, then just leave without reprimand, seemed like saying 'yeah go ahead, I won't stop you." In retrospect I see the point you are making.


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

The only time I had a horse rear on me like that was when I was turning out this young mare with not so great manners. I just happened to have a lunge whip with me and cracked her hard on the front legs and chest (I popped the lead rope hard too), she went down and didn't try rearing again. 
If a horse is pinning their ears when you ask them something, you want to get after them then before it escalates. You can't let the little things slide especially with young horses. They are going to push boundaries and it is up to you to let them know what is acceptable and what isn't 
IMO,I think sometimes people (myself included) are afraid to assertively correct behavior like that initially because we feel like we are being abusive.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

When they go up like that I think it's more effective to use the whip or lead rope on their rear legs, not the front. You keep warming those rear legs until they are back down on all fours and then go like nothing ever happened. They usually don't try it a second time. Really it just one rear leg because you need to step to the side and out of range of the front hooves so only have access to one rear leg.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

When you say 'filly' I picture a horse less than 1 year old. I know it really means a female horse that's not been bred, but by the time they're 3 I think of them as 'horses'. With a 3 year old horse, I would tolerate NOTHING. Not a flicked back ear, ****y face and the first time she reached for me, she'd have gotten the absolute crap knocked out of her. She might bite her owner, but I guarantee she wouldn't have done it to me more than twice. The rearing and striking is a really good reason why I like a long lead rope. I can let that horse have enough 'rope to hang itself'. I would have flipped that horse down to the ground (long lead, not too close for comfort) and then sat on her and kept her down until she was pretty sure she and hot sauce were what was for dinner. This is one of those horses where I would absolutely whip the hair and hide right off of her the SECOND she reached for me, since her owner has let her learn to be such a disrespectful turd. Now that you know what she's like, I agree, don't handle her again.


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## BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 (Apr 11, 2016)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> When you say 'filly' I picture a horse less than 1 year old. I know it really means a female horse that's not been bred, but by the time they're 3 I think of them as 'horses'. With a 3 year old horse, I would tolerate NOTHING. Not a flicked back ear, ****y face and the first time she reached for me, she'd have gotten the absolute crap knocked out of her. She might bite her owner, but I guarantee she wouldn't have done it to me more than twice. The rearing and striking is a really good reason why I like a long lead rope. I can let that horse have enough 'rope to hang itself'. I would have flipped that horse down to the ground (long lead, not too close for comfort) and then sat on her and kept her down until she was pretty sure she and hot sauce were what was for dinner. This is one of those horses where I would absolutely whip the hair and hide right off of her the SECOND she reached for me, since her owner has let her learn to be such a disrespectful turd. Now that you know what she's like, I agree, don't handle her again.


I've been around this particular filly for about a year and KNEW she was disrespectful, tried to tell owner that. It's gotten worse as time passed. I really do respect this owner, who is actually very good with horses and makes them behave. For whatever reason she has seemed to think this filly is not that bad, very optimistic about horses' intentions I guess you could say. She doesn't however allow her to bite. As I said, I think it's been not enough handling for the most part. Since she is not my horse, it is not in my jurisdiction to do something to that extreme. That's why beyond leading when needed, I will not work with her for my own sake until someone with better skills can whip her into shape. Even if I was to try though, don't know that I could hold a horse down.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

You can't hold a horse down, but you can both make it difficult and uncomfortable for her to go up
The owner should not let anyone handle this horse, that can't instill good manners
You must know the old saying that you train a horse, each and every time you handle or ride them, either for the good or the bad.
Right now, this young horse is learning to be dis respectful, even dangerous.
That is doing neither you or the horse any good!


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## BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 (Apr 11, 2016)

Smilie said:


> You can't hold a horse down, but you can both make it difficult and uncomfortable for her to go up
> The owner should not let anyone handle this horse, that can't instill good manners
> You must know the old saying that you train a horse, each and every time you handle or ride them, either for the good or the bad.
> Right now, this young horse is learning to be dis respectful, even dangerous.
> That is doing neither you or the horse any good!


Holding down as referring to dreamcatcher's post.

I agree with you that what she is learning is not good for anyone. That's why I said beyond leading from point A-point B or if absolutely necessary, I will not handle her anymore, at least not until she is taught some serious lessons by someone else.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 said:


> She doesn't however allow her to bite. As I said, I think it's been not enough handling for the most part.
> 
> Since she is not my horse, it is not in my jurisdiction to do something to that extreme.
> 
> That's why beyond leading when needed, I will not work with her for my own sake until someone with better skills can whip her into shape. Even if I was to try though, don't know that I could hold a horse down.


#1 - Obviously she does or the horse wouldn't still be trying at 3 years old. I have 12 horses and with the exception of the BABY ( 1 month old ) and still trying out his new teeth, not a one will even try to bite or nip. Every single one of them got educated before they were a year old. At 3, they ALL know/knew that I would "Kill" them for even thinking such a thing. So, yes, the owner does allow her to bite, or is ineffective at telling her that it's not ok to bite which ends up being the same thing.

#2 - I totally disagree with this. If the horse never offered to bite or strike YOU then it would not be your purview. The second she does/did, it becomes your safety and I don't care whose horse it is. 

I'm going to just make a small statement and not derail the thread. Too many owners have fallen into the "I'm going to damage his/her fragile psyche/inner child/Pooky's self esteem if I get after him/her." and have stopped being good horsemen. If the owner abdicates their responsibility for making a good 'citizen' out of the horse and it bites or strikes someone, who do you think is going to get hurt? Not the owner! If you have a young horse, it is YOUR (owner's) responsibility to train that horse to be respectful and safe to be around. Failing that, the gloves come off. This is one of the reasons why there are so many unwanted horses out there and still so many that end up on the KB truck headed for a very unpleasant fate. 

#3 - Is this person paying you handsomely to risk your life and limb? Because if not, there is no "as needed" for leading or handling this horse until it learns some manners. If you tell the owner that you will not handle the horse because it's so disrespectful, the owner MAY get a clue and get serious about training the horse to be mannerly. I know that if someone told me that about one of mine, just as soon as I got done dying of the embarrassment that one of mine should have been so neglected, I would get right on it and in less than a week you'd see a big difference in their behaviour.

Regarding holding a horse down, if you don't know how to do it, don't try it.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Horses know IMMEDIATELY who they can and cannot respect. There is no "she doesn't respect her her owner, so she bites ME". She does NOT respect you, either. 

Agree with DA.....


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## BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 (Apr 11, 2016)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> #1 - Obviously she does or the horse wouldn't still be trying at 3 years old. I have 12 horses and with the exception of the BABY ( 1 month old ) and still trying out his new teeth, not a one will even try to bite or nip. Every single one of them got educated before they were a year old. At 3, they ALL know/knew that I would "Kill" them for even thinking such a thing. So, yes, the owner does allow her to bite, or is ineffective at telling her that it's not ok to bite which ends up being the same thing.
> 
> #2 - I totally disagree with this. If the horse never offered to bite or strike YOU then it would not be your purview. The second she does/did, it becomes your safety and I don't care whose horse it is.
> 
> ...


Being ineffective at correcting is more likely the issue honestly. The owner has never just let her bite and done nothing. I trust that fact.

Neither me or the owner fall into the "I can't damage her psyche" thing. We will both be pretty quick to get after a horse when necessary, just perhaps not in a way that is effective for this particular horse. I have dealt with nippy horses, and stopped the problem while I was the one handling them at least. This filly is just not one I've been able to get through to consistently, which I'm aware is at least partially my fault. I agree that she needs to learn respect, but I am not the one to do it, because I've only ever done so with safe but stubborn or a cranky older horses, nothing dangerous.

No I am not being paid, but help her and another friend care for their horses in exchange for learning about handling, feeding, etc. Her other 2 horses are very respectful. This filly is the exception. I have to go out in the pasture with her to handle the other two, which is why I said I might have to deal with her from time to time. Regardless I plan on telling the owner just that. I've suggested a few times in the past that she needs to be dealt with, but now that this has happened, I'm going to tell her that she is becoming DANGEROUS, maybe that could get it through. I have respect for her, like I said, this particular situation is honestly frustrating me though. 

I had no plans to try holding her down, just wanted to acknowledge it.


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## BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 (Apr 11, 2016)

greentree said:


> Horses know IMMEDIATELY who they can and cannot respect. There is no "she doesn't respect her her owner, so she bites ME". She does NOT respect you, either.
> 
> Agree with DA.....


I agree honestly. I meant that she's been respectful me in the past, because she knew I'd correct her. I admit that recently that's been slipping, and I did not nip it in the butt when I should have, therefore it escalated. Too much horse/too much of a task for my experience, and I've figured that out now.


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

My gelding used to do this when he was young. He would work until - he did not want to work. When he would rear I would pull him sideways hard so he had to come down and then chase after his hind end with a whip or the end of the lead. Work work work until he was good and ready to rest and listen to me.

this cured him or rearing and striking. I want to add that when my gelding did this he was probably a yearling and quite the spoiled brat. We raised him here and he thought he was a dog and acted very pushy. Our fault I know - it was hard to undue but we did it.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 said:


> I admit that recently that's been slipping, and I did not nip it in the butt when I should have, therefore it escalated. Too much horse/too much of a task for my experience, and I've figured that out now.


Then you learned something from it, so it's not a totally wasted encounter. 

Some horses are just........opinionated......for lack of a better word. I have one, have had her since she was a weanling. And lemme tell you, getting through to her in the beginning took some doing. She's one that is very much wanting to please, but also very strong willed, and VERY MUCH a drama queen when she doesn't get her way. She's the one who taught me how to hold a horse down because she will throw herself down on the ground, 4 legs in the air and remind you of a 3 year old child throwing a tantrum. The only thing missing was the screaming and snotting and beating her fists on the floor. I pulled her over a few times and sat on her and held her down until the Wall Eyed Fit was over, and 10 years later, she's one of my very best horses. But I never give her an INCH because she will then try to take an ELL. She will try to walk all over someone new, but if you give her the 'mare with her ears flat to her neck' look and move purposefully toward her, she will immediately quit and behave. I haven't laid a hand on her in YEARS, but she knows I will if needed. I would not send an inexperienced handler out to bring her in from the pasture, she's jut not that kind of horse.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Dream has expressed very well as to what is happening, and how it needs to be addressed.
Young studs can be the worst, far as being nippy, as it is part of their very instincts to be so. They not only attack rivals with their teeth, but nipping is often part of courtship
Yet, even studs can be taught that human flesh is off bounds.It is all about 'being as gentle as possible but also, as firm as needed, to make that horse a good citizen'
If the owner has failed to address the problems in this filly, she has failed the 'firm as needed' clause


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Smilie said:


> .It is all about 'being as gentle as possible but also, as firm as needed, to make that horse a good citizen'
> If the owner has failed to address the problems in this filly, she has failed the 'firm as needed' clause


In a nutshell, EXACTLY.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Smilie said:


> I am not going to just address the rear by itself, as this hrose has been allowed to gain a bad attitude, period, and once horse does, they up the anti.
> I am assuming all pain issues have been ruled out, as that disclaimer needs to be put it each time, or it comes up, as a reason!
> Long, long before this horse ever got down right '****y', with a 'make me attitude, the idea she can apply teeth to human flesh, she should have been corrected
> Rearing,and striking is a very aggressive action
> ...


This. I may allow a baby some slack due to not knowing (not saying to not correct just being understanding lol). But dangerous behavior is always dangerous. And in this situation more importantly, training wise, a bad attitude is a bad attitude, I am not surprised she escalated to striking at you as she's obviously thinking she can do that. There's "the baby reared" and then there's "a horse that knows better just attacked me". Sounds like she's not young enough to think it's genuinely ok to do that, she knows she's not supposed to and is doing it anyways because she can.

While I initially addressed the OPs post I do agree with Smilie that the overall picture is the far bigger problem.

Reading further I see she is three....yeah. While young a 3 year old gets NO excuses about "not knowing" dangerous behavior. And absolutely no leeway about intentionally attacking someone. She may have a good personality but that side of her will be hidden away pretty darn quickly when she's learned the other side is more effective with people.

I know it's not your horse, but I'd go all or nothing with it. Helping your friend out here and there when nothing else is being done isn't going to help much.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

The expression is "nip it in the BUD"(the growing point of a plant, which, when nipped off, redirects the growth to side shoots), not "nip it in the BUTT", which is a hoofpic expression......

Yes, pet peeve.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I like nip it in the Butt better, in this case.


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## BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 (Apr 11, 2016)

greentree said:


> The expression is "nip it in the BUD"(the growing point of a plant, which, when nipped off, redirects the growth to side shoots), not "nip it in the BUTT", which is a hoofpic expression......
> 
> Yes, pet peeve.



I'm aware of the phrase, and alter it intentionally. I've always said "in the butt", and I understand a pet peeve, but I'm going to keep saying it that way. Sorry, it's just my thing.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

OP I wanted to add that the reason she's still acting like this despite correction is that the behavior (say nipping) isn't the real problem, the problem is she has learned that it's ok to push people around and be aggressive. At this point she needs to be made to toe the line, boot camp style, which is why I said all or nothing. Either crack down on her or stay out of it.

Remember, even if you correct her what matters is how she *thinks*, if she's not mentally processing a correction the way it's intended then it is irrelevant.

Especially knowing she's not a real baby I'm very glad she didn't seriously hurt you!! Unfortunately this is becoming a very serious situation. A good example of how people think "she attacked me out of the blue!"

@greentree I'm fine with that one but I will say there are a few I consistently butcher. I think after hearing them so often one's brain registers the meaning more than the words!


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

waresbear said:


> Carry a whip, a stiff biting one, the moment she goes up, whack those front legs until she's got 'em on the ground again. You will only need to correct her, oh about once?


I haven't yet read all the replies. 

This I would never do, hit a rearing horse on the front legs, it can make them go higher and flip over which, if you are on soft landing is OK but, on anything hard they can seriously damage themselves by hitting their poll or smashing the spiney processes of the withers. 

Several things I would do. First wear a hard hat. 
Second have a long rope or lunge line. Third carry a long dressage whip. If she went up then I would quickly move to one side amd whack really hard _across the back legs._
This is attacking their only means of support and they think twice about it. 

If this mare is constantly trying to bite and be disrespectful in general then you have to look at what you are doing or not doing. One good corrective session with follow up sessions with reminders, should be enough for the animal to know you mean business.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Foxhunter said:


> I haven't yet read all the replies.
> 
> This I would never do, hit a rearing horse on the front legs, it can make them go higher and flip over which, if you are on soft landing is OK but, on anything hard they can seriously damage themselves by hitting their poll or smashing the spiney processes of the withers.
> 
> ...


The problem with all of this "What I would do" advice is, the OP doesn't have the knowledge and the timing to do it and admits it. Saying to carry a whip or long lunge line or any of that encourages her to still engage with this horse and that is turning into a very dangerous situation for her, very quickly. I don't disagree with what you're saying, except maybe for the part about flipping them, a rearing horse has absolutely nothing coming in my book. I'll flip 'em and sit on 'em and make 'em KNOW they're going to die right now, but it's something I've learned from dealing with all kinds of horses, butt heads, drama queens, stupid, too smart, playful, fearful, you name it. The ones who go up for spite, to bully you around are the ones that get zero consideration from me. Those are the ones who are heading down the short one way road to a kill truck. Interacting with such a horse without having gotten quite a bit of experience with other horses first, is a great way to get injured badly.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I agree. Rearing is dangerous enough, but that's not the problem here, this mare was actually attacking the OP, rearing so that she could strike out at her and did manage to hit her several times. Not a situation to get into lightly.


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## BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 (Apr 11, 2016)

Thanks for all of the replies.

Like Dreamcatcher said, I do not have the experience to deal with this problem now. The purpose of this thread was to get advice (that you guys have given me) to handle this type of situation in the future when I DO have the experience. As I said, this did not scare me or shake my confidence, it just made me realize that she's too much horse for me to deal with and I have a lot to learn. I've worked with a lot of different horses, but all of the others both this owner and Cherokee's owner have are respectful enough that they are not dangerous in any way. All have different personalities and some with a little attitude, but none of them would dream of going after or harming a person on purpose.

I'm going to have a serious talk with the owner about this, as this horse is becoming dangerous, and I know that. I also know that I am not the person to fix it. I'm lucky that I got off with nothing but a scratch and a couple bruises. I really do like this filly, as most times she's sweet, so I would hate to see her get to the point of no return. Somebody NEEDS to work with her. I guess it my initial post I should have said the owner should be addressing it. Looking at it now I am not so sure of that. Wish me luck at making her owner understand that something needs to be done.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 said:


> Thanks for all of the replies.
> 
> Like Dreamcatcher said, I do not have the experience to deal with this problem now. The purpose of this thread was to get advice (that you guys have given me) to handle this type of situation in the future when I DO have the experience. As I said, this did not scare me or shake my confidence, it just made me realize that she's too much horse for me to deal with and I have a lot to learn. I've worked with a lot of different horses, but all of the others both this owner and Cherokee's owner have are respectful enough that they are not dangerous in any way. All have different personalities and some with a little attitude, but none of them would dream of going after or harming a person on purpose.
> 
> I'm going to have a serious talk with the owner about this, as this horse is becoming dangerous, and I know that. I also know that I am not the person to fix it. I'm lucky that I got off with nothing but a scratch and a couple bruises. I really do like this filly, as most times she's sweet, so I would hate to see her get to the point of no return. Somebody NEEDS to work with her. I guess it my initial post I should have said the owner should be addressing it. Looking at it now I am not so sure of that. Wish me luck at making her owner understand that something needs to be done.


You can only do what you can do and then you need to walk away. If the owner refuses to fix the issues, then she needs to be the only person handling this horse, not turfing it off to someone who wants and needs experience but doesn't have enough YET to be able to profit from this one. They used to tell us every day before we went out on shift, "Be safe. You are not helping anyone if you rush in and get hurt or killed, not the victim, their family, your family, your friends, your team, nobody.". Knowing when you need to back away and wait for back up is an invaluable tool to have and use when it's appropriate.


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## BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 (Apr 11, 2016)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> You can only do what you can do and then you need to walk away. If the owner refuses to fix the issues, then she needs to be the only person handling this horse, not turfing it off to someone who wants and needs experience but doesn't have enough YET to be able to profit from this one. They used to tell us every day before we went out on shift, "Be safe. You are not helping anyone if you rush in and get hurt or killed, not the victim, their family, your family, your friends, your team, nobody.". Knowing when you need to back away and wait for back up is an invaluable tool to have and use when it's appropriate.


I'll continue to help, as I absolutely love her other two, but I'll just leave this filly alone. I've only been handling horses for about 2 years, so I definitely don't have enough experience yet. 

Don't get me wrong though, she did not put me up to work with a horse that had a history of rearing, striking, or anything like that. Being a little nippy didn't seem like a big deal to either of us, and the rear is a first time thing. From this point forward I won't handle her, but we were both at fault there, not just me. I knew the horse was pushy, just didn't realize she would do what she did. :icon_frown:

I am constantly gaining more experience, so eventually I would be able to deal with that, just not yet. I agree there is no point in getting yourself hurt by being overconfident or trying to hurry. This owner has told me that before, and is willing to step in whenever she needs to. This was an exception (she wasn't with me at the time, which I now realize was kind of dumb of me).


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 said:


> I'll continue to help, as I absolutely love her other two, but I'll just leave this filly alone. I've only been handling horses for about 2 years, so I definitely don't have enough experience yet.
> 
> Don't get me wrong though, she did not put me up to work with a horse that had a history of rearing, striking, or anything like that. Being a little nippy didn't seem like a big deal to either of us, and the rear is a first time thing. From this point forward I won't handle her, but we were both at fault there, not just me. I knew the horse was pushy, just didn't realize she would do what she did. :icon_frown:
> 
> I am constantly gaining more experience, so eventually I would be able to deal with that, just not yet. I agree there is no point in getting yourself hurt by being overconfident or trying to hurry. This owner has told me that before, and is willing to step in whenever she needs to. This was an exception (she wasn't with me at the time, which I now realize was kind of dumb of me).


Horses will definitely take you through the School of Hard Knocks, if you aren't careful. Knowing when to step back and away is a valuable thing to learn, and you learned it without any major damage to you or the horse, so it's all good. I've been handling horses since I was a child and I'm now going on 60 this summer. In all that time, one of the main things I've learned is that there are a LOT of really nice horses who need a good home or who need working with. No need to work with the butt heads. Leave them for those who like doing that and who have the experience.


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## BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 (Apr 11, 2016)

I agree, although apparently I like butt heads since I keep working with Cherokee, lol.:lol:

He's stubborn butt head though, not mean butt head.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

When a horse is flat out attacking you a lot of rules go out the window. Just do what you think is best and if that means getting out of the way then just get out of the way!

"Don't get me wrong though, she did not put me up to work with a horse that had a history of rearing, striking, or anything like that. *Being a little nippy didn't seem like a big deal to either of us*, and the rear is a first time thing. From this point forward I won't handle her, but we were both at fault there, not just me. I knew the horse was pushy, just didn't realize she would do what she did."

And that is the perfect example of how things escalate and why the mare thought doing what she did was even an option. It's worse at this point because she's unpredictable. As least an aggressive/bully type is predictable. She is in the process of escalating and can't be trusted.

You have the right mindset about this, I just hope the owner does too.

Something to think about- a lot of "dangerous problem horses" start out exactly where this mare is now. It's a shame, but don't let her become one of them.


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## BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 (Apr 11, 2016)

Yogiwick said:


> When a horse is flat out attacking you a lot of rules go out the window. Just do what you think is best and if that means getting out of the way then just get out of the way!
> 
> "Don't get me wrong though, she did not put me up to work with a horse that had a history of rearing, striking, or anything like that. *Being a little nippy didn't seem like a big deal to either of us*, and the rear is a first time thing. From this point forward I won't handle her, but we were both at fault there, not just me. I knew the horse was pushy, just didn't realize she would do what she did."
> 
> ...


When I said didn't seem like a big deal I meant that it didn't seem like anything I couldn't deal with, as I handle a QH from time to time who occasionally tries to get testy and nip. I stop that quickly and it doesn't remain an issue, and never escalates with him. Neither of us thought her nipping was okay. Sorry I didn't clarify.

I agree that she can't be trusted, as she is unpredictable at times, but just being in the pasture she is okay. I hope I can take the advice I've been given and make the owner understand this. I don't want her to become one of those horses.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Foxhunter said:


> I haven't yet read all the replies.
> 
> This I would never do, hit a rearing horse on the front legs, it can make them go higher and flip over which, if you are on soft landing is OK but, on anything hard they can seriously damage themselves by hitting their poll or smashing the spiney processes of the withers.
> 
> ...


 Actually this was in a training article from John Lyons, however I was shown this years ago at my first paying horse training job, it worked and no going higher either. This little method was a turning point for a very spoiled filly I was training for a client. The little hag reared up at me when I first started to lunge her, I turned the lunge whip around and beat her front legs, she couldn't get them back on the ground quick enough, after that, she had a complete attitude change. I can only give advice on what has worked great for me and if a famous trainer reaffirms it, I am cool with that


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

that's interesting, because I would have agreed with Foxhunter; go after her hind legs, OR, her belly. that way she will do somethimg to protect those parts, and that is likely going to be to come to the ground , in order to jump sideways. if you are on the side, then you could pull the head around.

this is a very interesting discussion.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Thanks Tiny, I did forget one very important part, mybad!!! When a horse goes up, slack the lead immediately! I think this is why a horse would go over or higher, no pulling what so ever in a rear, either on the ground or in the saddle, although I have heard some riders pull a horse's head to side if they feel the horse going over backwards in a rear under saddle.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

Once she goes up, it's too late. Read the body language and correct it. 
The rear needs to be corrected before she gets off the ground with circles when she starts to shift balance to rear. Punish the thought and teach her that those things cause more work for her. Trying to throw her off balance is dangerous, getting close enough to swat her in the front legs is as well.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

I had a 3 year old Arab stallion that had always been perfectly well mannered. He was leading well and riding well. I was trying to decide whether to geld him.

One afternoon I was leading him away from a group of mares. One of them called to him. He reared up and struck me totally down with both front feet right in the chest so fast that I never saw it coming. I looked up and he was coming at me again. I rolled out of his way just in time not to die.

Gelded him that afternoon. He was a nice gelding.

I tell this just to show how dangerous striking at someone is. I was pretty bruised and had a nice case of road rash. I could have been killed. His issue was that the mare was in estrus and he went psycho. 

The argument over where to hit them if they come up; my answer is wherever you can as fast as you can.


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## bellagris (Dec 6, 2010)

I didn't read all of the responses...but my first thought is personal space and respect. She MUST be respectful of your personal space while on the ground. That is the start of her ground manners. You definitely want her to know to move away from pressure not towards it so you can make sure to direct those shoulders away from you. That being said...you need to be able to meet a horse at their level and if you cant, you could get hurt very seriously. I had a colt that didn't flight, he did fight...and it was an intimidating thing to need to be big in that moment...but I pulled that lead down and chose a spot in my eye sight and backed him all the way over there as fast as I chose to and fast enough that he was 100% moving his feet for me. There were 2 more episodes and that was the end of that. Leadership can be hard earned sometimes, but there cant be a question of who is the leader. 

I am not sure the reason that your mare did this, but be safe.


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## BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 (Apr 11, 2016)

bellagris said:


> I didn't read all of the responses...but my first thought is personal space and respect. She MUST be respectful of your personal space while on the ground. That is the start of her ground manners. You definitely want her to know to move away from pressure not towards it so you can make sure to direct those shoulders away from you. That being said...you need to be able to meet a horse at their level and if you cant, you could get hurt very seriously. I had a colt that didn't flight, he did fight...and it was an intimidating thing to need to be big in that moment...but I pulled that lead down and chose a spot in my eye sight and backed him all the way over there as fast as I chose to and fast enough that he was 100% moving his feet for me. There were 2 more episodes and that was the end of that. Leadership can be hard earned sometimes, but there cant be a question of who is the leader.
> 
> I am not sure the reason that your mare did this, but be safe.


This filly isn't mine, and I have not been working with her since this incident as I do not have the skill to. She has little respect for me, and hates being told what to do, then is not afraid to act aggressively if it means getting her way. It isn't just me, but her owner is able to handle her, so I am sticking to her two pasture mates, who are very well-mannered and friendly.

Thanks for replying


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