# Before and After, Conformation Critique



## TerciopeladoCaballo (May 27, 2012)

http://i45.tinypic.com/346ud03.png

Not the best shoulder angle in the world, but not terrible. Her scapula has some room to move back for a jump, but the tighter angle (indicated by yellow dot) shows she probably doesn't have quiet a free movement. Pink line indicates that her wither is just about level with her hind end, no nasty downhill build there, you still need more work to raise the back so it isn't such a V-like dip.

There's something about her hind end that bothers me, can't really put my finger on it 
I think it's that she could be cow hocked or toed out in the back.

That's just what I see at a glance. Cavalletti are great for topline building. Raise trotting poles and always incorporate them into the routine. I like to keep a set of four shorter stride trotting poles on one side of the arena and one set of three larger stride trotting poles on the other. If you have a lake or river nearby, ride or lead her through it, this would help loosen tight muscles.


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## Ashsunnyeventer (Aug 17, 2012)

She is actually toed out in the hind right. I couldn't get her to stand norammly and also square, so she looks like she is going to pee in the middle pic  I know she has super tight hamstrings, so maybe that has something to do with what you are seeing?

Her movement in the walk and canter is okay, but not superb, but her trot is so amazing. She has so much reach and suspension. I will start doing more raised poles, and see if that helps her back- I'm also getting my saddle re-fitted because I'm not sure that it fits anymore.

I'm pretty sure she is still growing a little bit, so she will maybe end up a bit more uphill, like when I first went to try her. She has grown almost an inch since I've had her!

Thans for the response- anyone else?


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

She needs more groceries I think. Not a lot.. but some. And the work as mentioned. Her neck is very thin and not even started to "turn over." 

Her cannons are long and her hocks are quite high off the ground. She is also tied in at the knees a bit. 
Keep up the good work. She is improving. It takes a lot of time.


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## TerciopeladoCaballo (May 27, 2012)

* And take a mountain load of pictures! Try to get her to stand good from the side and snap one every week or at least every month to track her. I wouldn't know what my arthritic horse has been reacting to if not for frequent photos.

It'll also give you a nice feeling a few years from now to look back on a scrawny horse but have a muscular Prix St. Georges level horse in the stall... and know it's the same horse


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## Ashsunnyeventer (Aug 17, 2012)

Speaking of groceries... She gets 14 lbs of grain/day (that's COB and sweet feed), supplements to help with wieght and muscle building and free choice hay. She also has grass in her field. I think she is just going to be naturally slim, but we'll she how she does when it gets warmer.

I'll take as many pictures as I can  Maybe if there were less distractions in the barn, I could get her to stand still so I could get some good ones 

What can I do for her neck? I know it's "throughbred skinny", but we do dressage 5 times a week, so I'm not sure what else could be done?


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## TerciopeladoCaballo (May 27, 2012)

Ashsunnyeventer said:


> What can I do for her neck? I know it's "throughbred skinny", but we do dressage 5 times a week, so I'm not sure what else could be done?


Ever tried/heard of carrot stretches?
What level of Dressage is she at right now?


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## Ashsunnyeventer (Aug 17, 2012)

I've heard of carrot stretches before- I'll try them  We are currently working on Novice Test B, soon to move onto the Training tests Here is a link to the one we have just about mastered:

http://www.okhorse.com/attachments/Novice_Test_B.pdf


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## Ashsunnyeventer (Aug 17, 2012)

More Pictures:


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## Cherrij (Jan 30, 2013)

For 1, if she aint a racer anymore, she doesnt need that much grain. Her required energy levels are low - feed fibre not starch. 14 lbs of grain is about 6 kg. thats a lot. 500 kg horse needs about 10 kg dry matter feed per day - 6 kg in grains and mixes is too much.. 
also, grains are very high in starch and their stomachs cannot handle big portions, 3 lbs of oats already has enough starch for one meal. 
with good quality hay, sugarbeet pulp, soybean meal, or even sunflower meal, some alfalfa etc she would get lots of good quality fibre that will help with weight gain. ok, for weight gain the food should be about 2.3-2.5 % of the body weight, but not all grain.. 

sorry for the rant, but 14 lbs of grain made my eyes pop.
Otherwise, WELL DONE. She looks very unhappy in the first picture, and very "dry" as in plain muscle around the bones. the muscles needed for running. 
overall she looks much better, just need to work a lot more with her neck. keep working with dressage and should be fine  Takes time to build good muscle on the horse when they are used to working in a different way.


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## Ashsunnyeventer (Aug 17, 2012)

Thanks for the feedback  It took us a very long time to figure out what to feed her. We were feeding her "normal horse" amounts and nothing was happening. We wormed her several times, but nothing was changing. After talking with our vet, we decided on a feed plan to help her gain weight. 

Since she is getting a lot of exercise, and has a high metabolism, she isn't an easy keeper. We were worried about so much grain and causing stomach problems like ulcers. Our vet said that she would be fine as long as she is getting free choice hay (which she is). We hope to try to wean her off of all of that grain when the weather warms up, but until then, she needs that amount of food to maintain her weight. I wish there was an easier way beacause that food costs a lot of money!


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## Cherrij (Jan 30, 2013)

Too much grain doesn't cause ulcers, but if much starch passes through the small intestine into the large intestine it starts to kill off the fibre digesting bacteria and that releases toxins that lead to all kinds of problems.. that's why nutritionists suggest feeding more high fibre and protein diet than starch and sugars. well, as long as she is fine and there are no changes in her health and hooves, it could be okey but you should keep an eye on the fact that she still eats more at least 50% of her daily food weight in hay, even for working racehorses they still eat 50% hay and the rest is fast energy release food - grain. Horses in less work than racehorses should have at least 70% hay consumption of their daily dose. 
Tbh, I have never seen too many fat TBs and she looks ok, lean but getting there.. its just the lack of muscle on her neck that bothers my eyes at the moment.. overall she looks good.. so you are on the right track.


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## Ashsunnyeventer (Aug 17, 2012)

Hmm fat thoroughbreds? My gelding is CHUBBY. He had to go on a diet in January so he only gets a handful of grain a day (literally) and that's only so he can eat his supplements 

I mean can we talk about fat? And this was AFTER he started his diet lol. He needs more work (I guess doing tricks doesn't burn calories- who would've thought...)


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## TerciopeladoCaballo (May 27, 2012)

I think she's over at the knee a bit in the back, and the front is noticeably base narrow. All that will make clean, untangled movement harder for her naturally; which makes me wonder if horses that burn energy quick without being put into what is considered strenuous work, are expending more energy to move neatly than another horse with better conformation... [<--- I think I just found my new research project, thank you very much!]


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## Cherrij (Jan 30, 2013)

He doesnt look chubby 
Well.. as you said, that mare has fast metabolism.. horse digestive systems vary. And it is said that any horse that is not competing even at lower level competitions does not need grain supplements - they will just store than energy in fat. (meaning the amount of work that is needed to compete in any discipline at low levels)
Some horses will be fat on just plain hay or grass.. they just are like that. same as others wont put on weight, just saying that grain can be dangerous.. 

on a side note, im way too scared to stand on a horse like that.. i guess I havent found the one I can trust the most.


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## Ashsunnyeventer (Aug 17, 2012)

Ash is a good boy for letting me stand on him like that, but of course- when I showed my friends what I figured out how to do, he staterd bucking lol that one hurt...

TerciopeladoCaballo- Let me know what you find out- that sounds interesting! And... Does your name mean Velvet Horse? I'm taking Spanish and I was really excited that I understood that lol  I'll try to get a video of her moving. She does wear front boots to prevent cuts, but most horses at my barn do.


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## TerciopeladoCaballo (May 27, 2012)

Ashsunnyeventer said:


> Ash is a good boy for letting me stand on him like that, but of course- when I showed my friends what I figured out how to do, he staterd bucking lol that one hurt...
> 
> TerciopeladoCaballo- Let me know what you find out- that sounds interesting! And... Does your name mean Velvet Horse? I'm taking Spanish and I was really excited that I understood that lol  I'll try to get a video of her moving. She does wear front boots to prevent cuts, but most horses at my barn do.


Yes it does mean Velvet Horse  My father and uncle spoke Spanish when I was a young child, I've been speaking Spanish for about 3 consecutive years, not counting the fragments like "Ve!" we would speak to each other throughout life. Funny thing is, I'm Austrian and Irish, but only my older relatives speak those native languages.

So far I've only come up with my hypothesis (horses with subpar conformation will burn more energy than horses with average or excellent conformation), about 20 test subjects, and two ways to gauge the horse's efforts; amount of sweat directly after a workout, and how many pounds/quarts/etc. of forage and/or grain the horse needs to affect its weight. I couldn't use most neighboring horses because they are increasing or decreasing their training regimes. *If anyone else wants to give me some data, awesome! *Basically, the horse has to be working at a constant intensity and frequency, and be fed the same amount/type of food for a week at least, and I need to know what faults it has in conformation and how severe those faults are, as well as the horse's height, age, and weight, what they do for exercise, how often, how long. I'm trying to find lesson stables to use for data, because the horses tend to be worked on a common schedule among each other.

I have my lumpy 12yo, 15.2hh mare's status off the top of my head; she is considered an easy keeper, has cow hocks to about a 45% severity, 68% steep shoulder, croup 10% higher than withers, gets 2 quarts of 10% protein grain pellet daily with 3 flakes T&A hay + 4 flakes Coastal hay a day and some nibblings Bahia grass for this winter. I take advantage of the colder months to help keep her thin rather than fleshy, as once the warm weather hits and the grass grows, she smacks on the fat like you've never seen a horse gain; all around the thighs and shoulder, too


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## Ashsunnyeventer (Aug 17, 2012)

Here is a video of her movement from tonight. Do you guys see a few off steps around 10 seconds? I thought I saw some in the video, but didn't feel it when I was riding. I checked her legs and she was fine and she trotted sound in the aisle. Maybe I'm just being paranoid because my gelding has been lame for 2+ weeks (hoping it's not navicular) 

We had just finished jumping and I was cooling her off. This is not even close to our best dressage and she was tired and wanted to walk, but you can see how she could be pretty floaty if she had more energy.


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## TerciopeladoCaballo (May 27, 2012)

She looks good so far 
I'd kill for your seat ._. With the ridiculous cold snap and untimely vacation, my mare's been gnarly to ride; it's definately harder to keep a good balance and contact on a horse that is having its own issues to sort... could your gelding have bone spavin? I've been finding I'm not alone, quite a few other neighbors have horses with this form of arthritis in the hocks/knees, and they're all younger than 18yo. I'm sore as heck trying to be of help to my girl during a ride, I'm taking the cop out; switching to in-hand and ground work til my calf sores heal and the cold snap is done >_<
Use MSM on your gelding  My neighbors and myself swear by its anti-inflammatory effects.


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## Ashsunnyeventer (Aug 17, 2012)

The vet will be out tomorrow to take X-rays and also do spring shots (We are supposed to get a foot of snow on Wednesday THAT'S NOT SPRING!) Either she can find the abcess and take care of it, or we can rule out any sort of bone chips and stuff like that. It's just really wierd lameness where he's fine for a few minutes and then he's lame again. He isn't even 16 yet, but does have some bad joint problems. This is definitley in the hoof because some days it's hot. I have a thread on here about it. And the only reason I can ride bareback like that is because I rode for 2 months without a saddle before we got one that actually fit. I guess it actually paid off 

Did you see the chesnut mare limping at all or was it just my imagination?


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